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何局長"},{"start":2001.397,"end":2029.226,"text":"外交及國際事務學院李新穎副院長臺灣日本關係協會范振國秘書長臺灣美國事務委員會薛美宇秘書長財團法人國際合作發展基金會石立軍副秘書長財團法人國際合作發展基...抱歉財團法人臺灣民主基金會代理執行長廖達祺廖執行長"},{"start":2031.856,"end":2038.083,"text":"財團法人﹐太平洋經濟合作理事會﹐中華民國委員會﹐許俊斌秘書長"},{"start":2054.417,"end":2063.519,"text":"我們現在確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有那我們議事錄確定本日會議邀請新任外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況．並備質詢請林部長上臺報告"},{"start":2090.786,"end":2118.695,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生、大家早安今天是我上任外交部長第一次向貴委員會報告外交施政計畫深感榮幸首先要感謝大院和各位委員對外交工作的支持書面報告請各位委員參閱以下就重點做口頭的說明、敬請指教"},{"start":2120.539,"end":2148.813,"text":"從今年出總統大選到520總統就職典禮國際共有73個訪問團和687位貴賓來台祝賀這展現了國際社會對台灣又一次完成民主選舉的支持也充分彰顯台灣德不孤必有靈過去8年來在踏實外交"},{"start":2150.205,"end":2172.46,"text":"的一個方向上已經奠定了良好的基礎臺灣也成為了國際可信賴的夥伴期待未來信賴外交將讓臺灣獲得更多的理念相近的國際友人的支持今後本人也將帶領外交團隊全力推動價值外交"},{"start":2173.598,"end":2192.25,"text":"以民主和平與繁榮來深化台灣的國際連結建立民主安全及經貿共同體來鞏固邦交的關係以及強化與友好國家的實質關係讓世界上架台灣開創價值外交的新時代"},{"start":2193.271,"end":2219.405,"text":"我們將以價值外交為導向整合跨部會國際合作業務搭配科技與經貿外交結合台灣科技產業優勢提供國際社會所需要的各種解決方案強化國際鏈結對區域和國際做出貢獻不僅是台灣can help而能夠做到台灣can lead"},{"start":2220.407,"end":2246.619,"text":"我們也要善用國家軟實力來推動公眾外交和加強國際傳播展現台灣是世界民主同盟的良善力量和全球可信賴的夥伴傳達台灣為國際民主盟友的和平形象近年來國際局勢及地人政治變動非常的劇烈威權政體河流擴張台灣不管是在自由開放社會"},{"start":2248.663,"end":2259.378,"text":"產業經濟發展以及台海的安全等各方面都面臨更多的挑戰例如中國上週又在台灣周邊進行軍演"},{"start":2261.502,"end":2279.503,"text":"威脅台灣民主和破壞現況令人遺憾此外中國也持續在國際上透過扭曲聯大2758號決議的方式來鞏固其所謂的一中原則企圖消滅我主權孤立台灣於國際社會之外"},{"start":2280.714,"end":2302.576,"text":"面對這些艱困的處境,無論是強化我國與友盟的關係,還是展現台灣的良善力量,都需要透過外交來達成而台灣的國際處境又極為特殊,故本能深感責任重大,自當戰戰兢兢,全力以赴此外,本部當前施政計畫主要由以下八個面向"},{"start":2303.953,"end":2315.825,"text":"第一深化鞏固邦交關係邦交國是臺灣最親近的朋友我們樂於願意來協助友邦發展本部將建議賴總統適時出訪以增進情誼並強化互信"},{"start":2322.768,"end":2344.252,"text":"為深化邦誼我們將逐步提高我國政府開發協助就是ODA占國民所得毛額的比例並且增加與美國、日本、澳洲等理念相近國家在我國友邦的工作上的合作另外我們也將擴大對邦交國的人才訓練並計劃在兩年內將本部台灣獎學金相關計劃的錄取名額備增"},{"start":2352.393,"end":2378.22,"text":"提升與我理念相近及友好國家的關係目前我國在全球共有111個外館布局全球無論是鄰近的亞洲、大洋洲以及遠距到美洲、歐洲與非洲等地我們將繼續提升與美日歐等理念相近國家以及其他友好國家的關係同時擴展與非洲、中東及拉丁美洲國家的友誼"},{"start":2379.99,"end":2401.665,"text":"這些詳細的部分請參閱書面報告的舉例說明第三點擴大國際參與並做出具體貢獻我們將以價值外交為導向爭取參與功能性國際組織也將深化參與已經加入的政府間國際組織此外我們將具體傳達台灣是全球民主盟友中"},{"start":2402.365,"end":2412.128,"text":"首位世界和平第一官的形象尤其要爭取更多國際支持加強反制中國錯誤詮釋聯大第2758號決議以及將其連結所謂的一中原則用來打壓我國主權的這種企圖"},{"start":2421.041,"end":2435.416,"text":"強化與擴大台灣與全球產經鏈結以全球產業供應鏈角度來看台灣有實力成為經濟日落國我們將結合台灣半導體和ICT產業推動五大信賴產業供應鏈"},{"start":2437.418,"end":2451.044,"text":"智慧城市與系統整合方案的訴出加強實質合作我們也將持續爭取加入跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定就是CPTPP等區域經濟整合機制推動洽簽各項雙邊協議同時深化擴大"},{"start":2455.323,"end":2476.995,"text":"全球合作暨訓練架構就是GCTF的這個平台在深化與新南向國家關係方面我們還要強化與理念相近國家在經貿科技上的合作並將新南向政策升級為數位新南向運用臺灣直通訊和智慧製造的優勢提供智慧程式"},{"start":2478.255,"end":2492.692,"text":"創新服務方案藉以聯結印太地區的重要夥伴提升我國優質國際形象本部將善用台灣軟實力在推動公眾外交方面我們將落實賴總統提出的"},{"start":2493.072,"end":2518.18,"text":"百億青年海外圓夢計畫．並推出相關配套方案．在加強國際宣傳方面．我們將宣揚台灣價值．擴大國際能見度．積極推動數位外交．打造國家品牌．並藉大型國際活動．如配合今年在法國的巴黎奧運．以及明年在日本的大阪世博．擴大國際"},{"start":2520.438,"end":2532.559,"text":"的一個宣傳台灣第6點加強結合及整合民間與政府各部門外交能量我們會推動成立跨部會經貿外交專案小組"},{"start":2533.983,"end":2552.484,"text":"導引各部會外交主流化協助我國五大信賴產業布局海外此外我們也將持續推動國際非政府組織來台設點使台灣成為印太地區的重要據點提升為民服務"},{"start":2553.735,"end":2567.499,"text":"的效能與品質提升為民服務效能與品質始終都是外交部工作的重點未來能將秉持依法行政追求效率變民服務等原則以同理心來提供國人最優質的服務第8點"},{"start":2569.8,"end":2590.15,"text":"強化外交同仁跨領域專業與職能尤其在經貿與科技領域的專業能力另外也將擴大外管的區域性專業功能跟角色多元推動人權外交、科技外交、文化外交、城市外交、國會外交、環境外交、體育外交與原住民外交等"},{"start":2591.29,"end":2619.769,"text":"臺灣新世界世界新臺灣展望未來本部將全力推動價值外交讓臺灣成為民主世界的要角世界和平的舵手以及全球繁榮的推手來落實臺灣can help and Taiwan can lead當臺灣走向世界也歡迎世界走進臺灣相信在國人和政府的持續共同努力以及相關部會的通力合作下特別是立法院的一個指導"},{"start":2621.13,"end":2632.559,"text":"推動．我相信人人都是外交官．部部都是外交部．未來台灣外交將一步一腳印．既往開來．為台灣外交開展新局．以上報告敬請指教謝謝"},{"start":2642.097,"end":2658.94,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘﹖非本會委員6分鐘﹖10點30分發言登記截止﹖若有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出﹖11點左右是詢答情形進行處理﹖現在請沈博洋委員上臺諮詢好 又請部長 謝謝"},{"start":2671.408,"end":2672.809,"text":"請部長部長好委員長很高興今天第一個質詢當然因為在這個在招卸部長的時候在這一段時間我們其實質詢了蠻多相關的問題所以我先稍微重整一下然後再往下我覺得有一個big picture那因為畢竟我們這個預算會期也快到了"},{"start":2700.169,"end":2722.934,"text":"我覺得對立法委員來講要怎麼看預算能不能夠滑在島口上是一件重要的事情所以我們大概在今天最主要的是想要問整個整體戰略上的一個問題那在之前的質詢裡面我們不斷的跟外交部強調就是說外交部他一定有必須要接觸的對象那這個對象可以分成最上面的這個政府跟國會那我們立法委員其實自己也是外交的一環"},{"start":2725.156,"end":2741.217,"text":"2、針對比較中間的智庫、學界、公民組織那時候我們在質詢的時候也一直在強調不是說我們在接觸外國的公民組織而已還包含現在INGO要怎麼在台灣落地等等的問題那最後當然就是面對社會大眾那這個也是最困難的地方"},{"start":2741.617,"end":2758.346,"text":"所以在之前的質詢也有特別提醒就是現在以中國來講他們針對這個社會大眾做的是特別多他們想要藉由社會大眾反過來去影響到他們的政府跟國會所以才會有上次用TikTok打電話等等的事件所以這個大概是在我們之前的質詢的幾個重點"},{"start":2760.387,"end":2783.719,"text":"因為接下來要進入到預算所以我們現在比較想要知道的就是說我們除了這些面對的對象之外我們目前是針對哪一些領域在做因為畢竟外交的領域太多了所以像剛剛有提到價值外交那我們可能有這個學術外交各式各樣的所以在這一邊我是認為說畢竟我們現在面臨中國的威脅是最多的"},{"start":2784.164,"end":2805.026,"text":"那在面臨中國的威脅之下呢這是我們以前在民間的時候去整理就是中國他在這個其他的國家不同的層面的滲透的狀況那這不同層面總共有九個不同的層面我就不一一說那但是呢我們目前來講外交部當然是著重在最右下角的這個外交的部分但就像剛剛"},{"start":2806.192,"end":2806.793,"text":"外交部長林佳龍報告業務概況"},{"start":2824.156,"end":2825.036,"text":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務"},{"start":2844.221,"end":2845.202,"text":"美國最嚴重的是學術"},{"start":2870.197,"end":2889.062,"text":"所以也就是說假設我們今天在針對美國在做任何外交行動的時候當然包含我們剛剛跟政府啊等等之類的但很明顯他在學術的被滲透是最嚴重那如果我們作為對中國的一個反制措施我們可能要針對學術要多做加強這就是一種但另外一個我覺得比較妙的地方就是比如說以這個"},{"start":2890.302,"end":2896.703,"text":"在這三個月之內我們在觀察這個外交現況的時候我們發現一件事情就是現在中國不是只有在針對他本來很強的部分做他反而會針對比較弱的地方去做"},{"start":2916.207,"end":2943.781,"text":"比如說他針對這個國家學術做得不夠他反而這幾個月尤其是在520之前他反而是特別針對弱的地方在做不強所以簡單來講呢我會認為說我們今天在針對外交的這一個抵抗或者說我們在交朋友的這個過程當中我們除了針對中國做的很多很強的地方要反制之外他沒做好的地方他現在反而是花最多資源因為中國也想要把他們的資源花在刀口上"},{"start":2944.281,"end":2967.635,"text":"所以這個大概是我們現在的一個whole picture那我相信外交部有自己的戰略判斷我們這邊只是拿民間有做的所以這不代表是正確的外交部自己在外管的判斷應該還是最正確的但我們到最後在接下來的會期我們會想要知道譬如說我們在這個國家的判斷是在哪個地方不足在哪個地方其實是中國做最多那我們就可能要針對那個地方做加強這大概是我們在"},{"start":2968.135,"end":2983.327,"text":"之前的質詢在講的這個問題那接下來我就進入到一個比較細節的部分第一個就是奧地利就是因為最近的新聞奧地利就是不承認我們的駕照這個很麻煩就是因為在歐洲開車有時候是你一下開到德國一下開到奧地利然後一下又開到德國"},{"start":2984.128,"end":2999.136,"text":"所以會變成說你到一半的時候會變無照駕駛那這個部分呢因為畢竟他是跟剛剛講的執法相關那當然2758號決議是大的是跟國際比較相關那我現在想知道的事情說像這件事情它發生是屬於因為官方不承認"},{"start":3000.497,"end":3020.456,"text":"還是屬於在比如說只是因為地方的租車公司他因為把我們列為中國的一省所以呢我們沒有辦法在這邊被承認所以就沒有辦法運作因為這兩個方向差蠻多的一個是比較官方的一個是屬於像航空公司啊把我們列為的這個一省的這個問題所以不知道目前就這個方向的掌握是如何"},{"start":3021.496,"end":3032.242,"text":"謝謝委員我們當然會先做溝通協調基於外交也是對等互惠所以如果對方是基於政治的原因我們同樣也會採取反應也就是互相承認跟互相都不承認但是因為奧地利畢竟"},{"start":3042.068,"end":3054.471,"text":"他還是一個民主的國家我相信在歐盟裡面經過大家的一個充分的討論我們當然希望既然歐盟是整合希望大家能夠在這裡面能夠這個交通能夠暢順以外也能夠國際間的駕照的一個相互的一個承認跟使用所以我們會先來確認"},{"start":3070.375,"end":3091.903,"text":"這問題出在哪裡?但是我們也有對應的措施因為我覺得如果他是跟官方有關的可能還尚且簡單因為畢竟可以跟官方溝通怕就是怕說他是個別的公司那個別的公司如果我們真的要去影響的話變成是我們對他們整體社會文化的影響到什麼程度那跟我們在地的媒體跟我們的宣傳等等之類的就會有高度的相關所以希望"},{"start":3092.763,"end":3118.94,"text":"這個部分到底是往哪個方向希望未來有一個掌握就是之後我們再來追這一題那當然再來就是它的手段是什麼我也覺得很重要因為畢竟對於威脅這件事情對於影響這件事情來講它可能是威脅也有可能是利誘那到底中國在奧地利是利誘做得比較多還是威脅做得比較多這個說真的我們現在在霧裡看花啦那我之前看到這個5月24的時候也就是大概一個禮拜前"},{"start":3119.941,"end":3140.411,"text":"我們發現就是有一些新聞報導澳地利的一些特工他是專門在搜集這些機密資訊給俄羅斯的情報機構然後他去搶試圖協助俄羅斯的特工去搶劫一名試圖曝光俄羅斯間諜的一個外國記者的公寓所以很明顯的就是在他們的這個國會裡面也開始注意到"},{"start":3141.091,"end":3156.468,"text":"這個雖然不是跟中國有關,但很明顯的是,因為利用說真的可能要花太多錢了,這種事情對他們來講,比較簡單。所以呢,如果說這種威脅的情勢已經在跟俄羅斯的合作發生之下,我認為中國可能也不遑多讓,那這可能是在奧地利我們必須要去注意的問題。"},{"start":3157.557,"end":3158.197,"text":"澳洲大使館"},{"start":3188.977,"end":3206.302,"text":"中共這些作為是戰狼外交的一部分也引起反彈在一個民主的社會國會議員他在做國際交流或參加一些活動基本上是被保障的而中共的這種極權統治還是甚至跨"},{"start":3207.102,"end":3210.823,"text":"臺灣未來未能夠跟理念相近的國家就是因為我們是在第一線遭受到這樣的一個打壓"},{"start":3233.027,"end":3248.082,"text":"那現在中國的這種威權的擴張已經是在全世界所以已經造成全世界很大的反彈甚至剛剛提到了包括在像法國英國等等歐洲這些國家他們甚至滲透到他們的這些民意機關裡面去"},{"start":3249.603,"end":3264.61,"text":"至於說在整個社群媒體上他發動的這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰是無所不在台灣的經驗很能夠分享包括民間你們在從事的這些事情也就是現在必須做一個總和外交"},{"start":3265.45,"end":3291.131,"text":"因為外交是內政的延伸所以中共怎麼統治中國它就想要去擴張影響世界所以這個時候台灣不但不是麻煩製造者我們是解決問題的鑰匙對台灣的經驗的分享跟各國的交流而這個我相信透過剛剛提到的總和外交就部部都是外交部人人都是外交官我們一定要做整合"},{"start":3291.992,"end":3314.902,"text":"因為現在已經是一個這個可以說是AIOT這個智慧物聯網的時代所以中共的這一些拓展包括透過TITO或其他的這一些社群媒體也是大家現在在做所謂的Cyber Security或者是說所謂的這個資安跟韌性沒有台灣"},{"start":3316.002,"end":3344.291,"text":"就有缺口,參加世界衛生組織,國際民航的組織,或者是氣候公約的這些組織,乃至於這個國際警政,這個有關於這方面的組織,沒有台灣,那世界就沒有辦法得到很安全的環境,而中共對台灣的打壓是損人不利己,所以他作為一個麻煩製造者,是大家的困擾,所以我們一起來面對跟因應。"},{"start":3345.671,"end":3363.977,"text":"主席抱歉再給我30秒就是說謝謝部長提出總和外交的概念因為我剛在問這個問題的時候像奧地利他如果不給我們駕照我們很簡單的平等互惠我們大不了就是讓他們來這邊也不能使用駕照但是當他們在做這些威脅的行動的時候我們不可能反制跟他們做一樣的事情畢竟我們是民主國家"},{"start":3364.517,"end":3381.348,"text":"所以在總和外交的概念之上我們在反制的時候呢我們可能可以用本來在這個總和外交的概念裡面的其他的手段來做反制這是我們民主國家能夠做的事情但是我們能夠反制的清單到底有哪些可能是必須要更快速的盤點因為接下來他們的速度可能只會越來越快"},{"start":3382.268,"end":3403.664,"text":"如果說我們在第一個禮拜或是說在第一時間沒有做出反制措施的話他會覺得以後在外交上的打壓沒有成本所以這個部分對我們來講是重要的那以及對於民眾的溝通這就是這個我們在後面這個本來今天要講的就是比如說像聯合早報他們在新加坡那一邊只要看這個報紙他們對中國的想法其實會有非常不同"},{"start":3404.324,"end":3404.544,"text":"羅美玲委員"},{"start":3431.577,"end":3431.737,"text":"林佳龍議員"},{"start":3442.419,"end":3468.213,"text":"部長早部長我剛剛聽了您的這個業務報告基本上我們新政府也就是賴清德總統的這個價值外交其實就是延續我們賴我們蔡英文總統的務實外交那其中也包含了新南向政策那剛剛部長您有提到就是說新南向政策要升級我們要以這個數位新南向來加強跟這個印太"},{"start":3471.235,"end":3471.355,"text":"主席"},{"start":3498.406,"end":3501.768,"text":"蘇維西南巷是我們從過去單純的商品的買賣其實現在我們要賣的其實就是服務那部長您曾經就有提到就是說像蘇維西南巷我們有鎖定了泰國馬來西亞越南同時我們還要佈局印尼"},{"start":3516.095,"end":3516.115,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":3535.49,"end":3562.399,"text":"最少是18個國家有3個區塊東協南亞跟澳紐但東協我們目前還包括馬來西亞那菲律賓也是一個重點只是因為我當時不是主管機關是我就我自己過去比較熟悉的國家那以馬來西亞來講他們跟台灣的合作很互補有將近10萬名的留台的學生的校友"},{"start":3563.339,"end":3570.024,"text":"這個是其他國家所沒有像智慧醫療在那個地方因為他們很多在臺灣留學生就是醫藥醫療方面所以這個就是他的強項那怎麼一國一中心我們可以落實在那裡我們會現在因為在外交部我當然會全面的針對新南向國家都來對應有我們可以對接的政策"},{"start":3586.994,"end":3589.637,"text":"馬來西亞的這個橋上政策其實馬來西亞這邊已經來台的這個歷史有60幾年就像剛剛部長所講的回到馬來西亞區的這個橋上大概有10萬人左右而且早期有很多都是來台灣念這個醫學院"},{"start":3607.237,"end":3607.617,"text":"請部長多敘述這部分"},{"start":3630.349,"end":3656.459,"text":"泰國因為它比較是跟整個市場經濟還有相當的法治是比較成熟所以在那邊投資有相對應的保障那最近因為有中國供應鏈的移轉大概以泰國跟越南是最大所以這個就是隨著我們台商這個供應鏈它的佈局那泰國它也是很國際化的一個地方人口也多"},{"start":3657.039,"end":3687.039,"text":"臺灣﹚"},{"start":3693.543,"end":3708.452,"text":"臺灣輸出,不只是製造,是服務,這樣子的整合之後對他智慧城市的轉型,特別是曼谷市長很重視,這個就是我們會有切入點,就是策略,所以泰國他是在"},{"start":3709.272,"end":3735.962,"text":"也是就是說這個東協方面一個國際化程度最高的城市那從這裡他又11C東部經濟走廊他們國家的政府的政策想要走的方向剛好也是我們台灣這幾年走的比如5加2產業創新六大核心戰略產業所以我們整體輸出軟硬結合那某種程度的系統整合的解決方案像我們的亞洲矽谷的計畫"},{"start":3737.142,"end":3758.98,"text":"大概已經有將近200多項都有成功其中100項是輸出這對他們這些國家來講就是台灣經驗不但沒有紅色供應鏈的問題台灣的競爭力物美價廉很多的社會條件也比較相近所以在影響力上面反而比美國日本等國還要大"},{"start":3761.641,"end":3761.961,"text":"林佳龍報告業務概況"},{"start":3792.182,"end":3792.883,"text":"新南向政策8年以來"},{"start":3807.199,"end":3810.36,"text":"新南向的這個升級呢跟這個新南向國家呢有更多更多的這個連結那除了剛剛我們所提到的這個所謂的數的新南向之外呢那在對新南向的部分我們新政府還有未來還有沒有其他的這個方針比如說可能"},{"start":3837.228,"end":3865.044,"text":"在這裡面我們沒有提到的,未來我們還有沒有其他的這個想法?是,我們也在就是要推出新南向基金,來幫助我們臺灣經驗的輸出,可以有不管是投資融資的基金,因為我們在中東歐以民主任性國家,我們現在進行了不錯的,不管是捷克,斯洛伐克,立陶宛,甚至擴張到波蘭,"},{"start":3866.525,"end":3889.902,"text":"那這種模式跟以前的原著是不太一樣這是共同來繁榮而且不是只是我們產品要輸出而是落地和服務所以這個是政策工具所以我們外交我想總和外交或價值外交就要創造價值那創造價值不是透過政府的資源因為民間的資源無窮像台商像很多的這個僑民"},{"start":3891.983,"end":3913.509,"text":"至少包括留學生甚至很多的移工還有甚至觀光客的往來其實都是很好的媒介所以因為地緣上跟我們就近那臺灣的經驗對他們來講又是最想學習的我們也有整套的所以我現在舉這個例子就我們的政策工具在盤點這是為什麼我們會建議行政院要成立一個跨部會的"},{"start":3914.569,"end":3923.871,"text":"現在台灣的處境其實外交的工作絕對不是只有外交部的事情應該是跨部會一起來做努力還有一點時間部長我想請教一下剛剛你有提到說巴黎奧運馬上就要開幕不到兩個月"},{"start":3938.835,"end":3940.956,"text":"在3月初的時候像這個羽球界被視為奧運會測試賽的超級750系列法國羽球公開賽那時候我們的選手在巴黎的時候有發現就是說"},{"start":3954.343,"end":3954.563,"text":"主席"},{"start":3971.995,"end":3987.45,"text":"巴黎在外國網站指出巴黎在他們統計的453個城市當中安全指數是排名在300名以下所以我們這些選手的安全狀況是令人擔憂的請問我們外管這邊有沒有做加強或是調派人力"},{"start":3991.677,"end":4011.887,"text":"有我們會來加強當然除了外交部我們外管之外教育部因為體育署另外就是中華奧會對於選手的安全包括甚至旁邊在服務的以前我們可能有一些外包那裡面有沒有一些這個這個安全的一些查核都很重要那這一個"},{"start":4013.488,"end":4030.604,"text":"當然吳志忠大使我也請他留到奧運舉辦完之後再返臺他是前線指揮官也要坐鎮在那邊所以我們跟法國方面也是有很好的一個聯繫透過他們的政府也來協助有關於安全的維護對我們的選手可以讓他無後顧之憂"},{"start":4038.111,"end":4038.131,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":4067.56,"end":4068.581,"text":"有請林部長"},{"start":4089.861,"end":4113.818,"text":"我知道你是一個外交能手對外交的一些基本的一個推動我想你是一個可以相信的一個外交高手那今天我們講一個過去從我們吳前這個部長所推動的外交"},{"start":4115.337,"end":4141.7,"text":"被稱為統稱叫斷交外交部長所以我希望在你任內不要變成為斷交部長因為我們希望的是在維持我們在國際間的國際地位包含我們國際的認同所以對外交是一個非常很重視的一個外交"},{"start":4142.521,"end":4159.159,"text":"今天我們訪觀我們看一下新上任的我們的賴總統我也希望有助於我們外交部拓展整個國際間的地位這是非常重要如果我們今天的賴總統對這個兩岸的議題"},{"start":4166.286,"end":4188.837,"text":"老是處在一個緊張的一個狀況之下就變成回頭過來對外交的推動是一個很大的一個考驗所以這個部長你要思考這樣的一個方向未來你可能會很多的要突破很多的一些困境今天講的是一個價值外交"},{"start":4190.338,"end":4211.566,"text":"價值外交待會我要提到的是價值外交裡面應該要融入原名外交原名外交未來的政府在外交著作這個外交的價值外交中價值指的是什麼那本席看到今天這個外交部所提出的這個報告"},{"start":4214.491,"end":4239.17,"text":"價值外交內容提到要以民主和平繁榮來深化臺灣的國際連結所以外交部所謂的價值就是只有民主和平繁榮嗎那另外就是價值的面向很廣外交部不要自我限縮在政治面或經濟意識形態上只要找到共通性"},{"start":4241.111,"end":4260.481,"text":"都可以作為價值的內容外交上次我特別有跟吳前部長特別提到原民的外交因為原民的外交在我們臺灣的原住民是屬於南島以西的民主的國家民主的南島以西人"},{"start":4261.417,"end":4281.47,"text":"如果按照連結整個南島嶼系的整個國家整個國家總共人口數就2.5億的人口數這相當龐大的一個人口數所以如果我們今天著重在這個南島嶼系的做一個連結外交"},{"start":4283.091,"end":4298.264,"text":"是不是也可以讓原住民有無認所或是有認所的外交來做一個連結讓我們在目前困境的一個國家現在你看馬上要面臨什麼"},{"start":4300.162,"end":4304.665,"text":"我相信部長你有智慧 即面對這樣危機的時候便轉機 原民外交就是一個重點 我想聽聽你的想法"},{"start":4321.497,"end":4332.164,"text":"是,謝謝委員提醒,確實,原民外交是台灣走和出去,而且這個是符合現在整個普世的價值。"},{"start":4333.154,"end":4351.475,"text":"那這個在南島方面特別是太平洋方面所以相關的國際組織或合作計畫我們要積極來參與那有關於包括南島民族論壇、太平洋島國論壇或過去所辦過我們要做一個檢視我們怎麼樣積極來參與甚至我們可以倡議"},{"start":4354.658,"end":4375.249,"text":"臺灣也可以作為一個這樣的一個平臺啊因為來連結我們過去我們外交的資源在多著重在論壇的方面但是實質上有沒有進一步的能夠變成一個建交的實質上的一個建交國這是一個重點"},{"start":4376.169,"end":4389.848,"text":"因為我們訪問一下台灣是南歐以西分化及擴散的源頭那包含夏威夷群島、越南南部、菲律賓、馬來群島"},{"start":4392.17,"end":4409.374,"text":"東到復活節島西到馬加斯加島南到紐西蘭全都是南島語系總共的人口數就2.5億的人口在太平洋島嶼則有100萬人口所以"},{"start":4413.106,"end":4431.072,"text":"在這個價值的外交的核心裡面那麼也應該把原住民的外交要把它切入到裡面作為你這一次接任外交部的一個重點我希望看到一個成績好不好"},{"start":4432.072,"end":4444.65,"text":"報告委員我有寫進去那個外交部的業務報告裡面原住民的外交原住民的外交因為我們本來就是一個南島共同體嘛是因為我希望說在這個過程因為現在的國際情勢"},{"start":4450.176,"end":4466.483,"text":"臺灣要走出去現在目前就是因為國際情勢包含兩岸之間現在對岸不斷對我們臺灣的外交一直在壓制限縮我們的國際外交所以這個就是要如何去突破"},{"start":4467.043,"end":4480.93,"text":"因為剛剛我提到這些南島以西的共同體的一個國家也應該推派推認我們未來原名外交的無認所或是有認所你覺得有沒有必要"},{"start":4481.977,"end":4497.232,"text":"跟委員報告到520因為是上一任的總統是有無人鎖大使是由原名來擔任是啊是那已經新的還在現在已經過了一段時間了部長"},{"start":4497.853,"end":4523.465,"text":"因為現在我要你的是直接的回答因為這是你現在要接任這個外交部長你要自己本身的主張主張就是要有一個魄力我現在如何把外交能夠在國際間奠定了我們的核心價值包含它的價值的外交這是一個重點你看我們反觀我們過去在前任的部長裡面"},{"start":4524.085,"end":4542.953,"text":"在歐洲跟外交的關係情況持平穩定成長還是已經有警訊雖然我國在歐洲僅有教廷的一個邦交國但外交部這幾年對歐洲的著力點非常大"},{"start":4544.373,"end":4555.383,"text":"這個外交部歐洲司的預算逐年增加就可以看出歐洲司的各年度的預算一直在不斷的增加109年8400億110年1.6億111年1.9億112年2.1億"},{"start":4567.833,"end":4584.619,"text":"一百一十三年升高到五點七億這幾年在歐洲的外交投注到一度引起邦交國的眼紅例如二零二年我國在南美洲唯一的邦交國"},{"start":4586.56,"end":4613.047,"text":"在其總統表示臺灣在非邦交國的投資超過60億美元我們想要有10億美元是在巴拉圭投資還有助於我們建立以臺灣的戰略戰略關係的聯盟我國雖然在歐洲投資這麼多的資源但最近看來外交部情況似乎不太好例如一本業"},{"start":4614.887,"end":4632.14,"text":"本月初習近平對法國一口氣與法國共同發布4項聯合聲明18項政府間合作協議第二奧地利突然宣布拒絕承認我國的國際護照第三"},{"start":4633.101,"end":4657.391,"text":"即將卸任的歐盟外長受訪的時候,歐盟既既定其立場即不承認臺灣的國家地位未來也不會這樣做。第四,立陶宛總統可能將我代表出改名。第五,上同教廷主動向中國大陸表達希望能在北京成立"},{"start":4658.752,"end":4659.172,"text":"說一下"},{"start":4674.409,"end":4697.479,"text":"當然外交的攻防彼此確實是警訊我們要非常注意其實起早的預警跟因應是非常關鍵的我們一方面也在擴展但是有一些也要守得住所以剛剛提到的這五項我們都會特別來注意其他方面所謂價值外交就是創造台灣的價值可以讓這些跟我們交往的國家因台灣而更好"},{"start":4703.487,"end":4714.402,"text":"我覺得這種的理念跟作為包括原住民的外交因為很多這個文明的社會對於原住民族或少數族群他是視為資產"},{"start":4716.653,"end":4716.833,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4734.565,"end":4737.488,"text":"所以現在就是把價值外交著重在原命外交這是一個非常好的一個策略為什麼"},{"start":4757.108,"end":4779.655,"text":"因為我們台灣的最貴最價值的資產就是原住民啊原住民有豐富的價值文化跟智慧都在這裡那為什麼不好好的善用這個原民的外交然後變成你核心跟他的價值的外交好不好以上這是提供給部長一個參考我們一起來努力謝謝"},{"start":4788.129,"end":4788.269,"text":"馬文鈞委員"},{"start":4812.671,"end":4839.829,"text":"委員好就這一次因為今天非常多的委員大家也關切了非常多我們在外交還有目前的處境上面那其實到目前為止我們的幫交過越來越少這也是我們現在可能要面臨的一個困境在吳釗燮部長現在的國安會的秘書長他"},{"start":4840.93,"end":4842.572,"text":"跟委員報告可以說是哪兩個嗎?"},{"start":4861.075,"end":4889.28,"text":"每一個邦交國我們都很重視我覺得我們知道從故邦到龍邦比如這一次我們以瓜地馬拉來講他的總統派了外交部長來外界有報導他們總統就又召開了視訊會議跟我們賴總統就是要來澄清外面可能的一些錯誤他們外交部長到了日本之後"},{"start":4890.24,"end":4918.621,"text":"又發表了共同對台灣的支持結果我們現在看到瓜地馬拉的這個咖啡跟夏威夷豆有七個貨櫃啊就是現在進不了中國像這個時候我們就是把它當作自己的事情就像之前的立陶宛一樣我是舉這個例子就是說除了預警以外啊我們怎麼樣用總和外交的力量來讓這些國家覺得跟台灣的交往還是長久之道"},{"start":4919.417,"end":4919.437,"text":"部長"},{"start":4947.754,"end":4966.124,"text":"因為時間的關係就是說我們可能用很多的方式或者可以讓我們的邦交國感受到我們可能才是可以長久交往的一個對象一個邦交的國家我們可能會有很多的方式我們現在只是比較關切的因為過去實在減損了太多的邦交國"},{"start":4972.027,"end":4972.047,"text":"：文貴議員"},{"start":5002.633,"end":5024.95,"text":"我覺得每個國家都要顧好而且我打算除了他們來我們也要去我們希望大概就這個部分我們大概現在只剩下12個要怎麼好好的去兼顧那可能也是未來林部長的考驗跟要努力的方向因為我們邦交國畢竟是"},{"start":5026.151,"end":5038.046,"text":"為一能夠在很多的國際場合上面或者可以實質的替我們提案發言等等他們才有實質的效果這些還是非常的重要那在這裡也要請教部長就我們現在"},{"start":5043.426,"end":5061.898,"text":"一般來說有很多的民眾也有這樣的感受我們對對岸就是中共我們的態度越來越強硬可是我們對很多其他的國家我們反而會有一些退讓或怯懦甚至讓大家覺得是怯懦"},{"start":5073.346,"end":5091.933,"text":"其實是沒有得到的反而好像是我們付出的比較多所以在這個部分比如說像有很多的免簽像有很多我們的參訪其實他們都會受制於很多政治的或其他的考量或國家利益的考量其實他對我們並不是像我們這樣因為我們口口聲聲說要對等所以其實"},{"start":5097.475,"end":5121.076,"text":"我們應該是不是也要像其他國家一樣以國家的利益還有我們未來的和平發展各方面的面向去考量這樣我們整個台灣現在的處境還有中華民國在對外的時候其實他才有更廣更遠還有更長還有可能更長治久安的這樣的一個方向可以遵循"},{"start":5122.558,"end":5139.747,"text":"是,確實啦,外交也有它現實的一面就是要互惠互利嘛那比如說以泰國來講,它現在延長對台灣的免簽就是因為我們也是有這個關紅專案嘛那這個就是一個逐漸在累積啊,更多的一個互信的基礎"},{"start":5140.808,"end":5156.473,"text":"那至於說對方強硬有時候是因為中共的因素因為在中國周邊國家都受到他很多的影響這個時候我們也了解可是比如我講數位新南向臺灣除了是去紅供應鏈我們的解決方案"},{"start":5157.273,"end":5171.429,"text":"我們5G在台灣實施的一個創新的這種應用的服務的成果就可以幫他解決他國家的問題所以我是覺得提升台灣的價值來創造這一些跟我們交往國家他的價值"},{"start":5172.83,"end":5182.416,"text":"這個價值不是只有現實的利益還有很多文化還有觀光也都是所以確實我們去理性之後時間的關係我們可能沒辦法大概就這個部分因為新南向的這個政策已經推動很長的時間包括我們保護我們的一些高科技的技術產業還包括我們的農業技術過去其實都一直朝這樣的方向在推動我們去豐富了他們"},{"start":5201.127,"end":5205.71,"text":"可是我們我剛剛講的是我們的反饋很少我們不是一直講說我們到底對他們做了什麼他們有什麼對我們反而他們在受制於中共的壓力之下他們對我們不敢表現友好這個這個我們並不算成功這部分我們未來可能還有時間來談那就整個外交的策略我們希望說還是有一些新的佈局"},{"start":5224.964,"end":5237.528,"text":"還有可能還有些還是要放下身段當你考量國家利益為上的時候有些事情其實是應該要透過談判或透過外交尤其是外交那不管兩岸關係雖然我們在兩岸關係還有陸委會還有什麼其他的單位可是都必須透過類似外交手段這樣子才可以讓大家"},{"start":5250.211,"end":5277.468,"text":"都可以獲得其利所以這個部分我們也希望由外交部也可以開始做起因為以前大家都是張牙舞爪其實這樣無助於台灣的整體的外交發展那我想要請教一下我們在5月18號有很多位委員上了太平島在去太平島之前有很多包括執政黨的委員甚至都一直公然指責"},{"start":5278.388,"end":5288.43,"text":"我們這樣會破壞區域的安全穩定會製造南海的紛爭等等我想請問我們這一次去有什麼國家抗議嗎"},{"start":5291.848,"end":5308.663,"text":"我那時候還沒擔任外交部長所以我還不是很清楚當時各國的反應不過我想這是國會委員會的考察那我們政府就是全力來配合那也希望能夠發揮這一次的考察的很正面的效果"},{"start":5308.763,"end":5332.84,"text":"我們這一次去就是非常正面因為第一包括衛福部長他在國外的時候都說國家主權不容打折所以像我們這樣去宣示自己的主權我們居然不敢做這樣當你在國內喊著口號當你在做大外宣大內宣說我們的主權不容打折的時候我們的領土居然不敢去"},{"start":5333.24,"end":5334.221,"text":"我碰到一個在那裡已經服役6年多的我們"},{"start":5362.737,"end":5363.058,"text":"委員長林佳龍"},{"start":5382.436,"end":5400.405,"text":"這些傳播其實在那裡在那個島上是不能使用他完全沒有通訊的這些裝備現在目前慢慢有了所以我們可以去看他們其實他們感受到非常的溫暖在這之前是八年前了"},{"start":5400.865,"end":5405.228,"text":"所以我們希望未來更多的機會包括部長有機會跟我們一起上太平島去看看然後這個也是宣示我們主權這是比較具體的方法我們希望在國內不要動不動就拿政治或者拿對岸來把它放大或者來扭曲或者來打壓甚至扣帽子我想這是一個例子啦我特別舉出來"},{"start":5424.662,"end":5453.12,"text":"那我還要利用一點時間我想要請教部長因為在521的時候也就是520賴總統剛就職的這個時間點在媒體的報導說外交部國和會派駐聖路西亞也是我們邦交國技術團的這個替代藝男他涉嫌經營販毒在過境美國的時候就被美方的司法部門逮捕"},{"start":5453.936,"end":5469.339,"text":"可見他光是過境而已他就被逮捕所以他已經被掌握了一段時間他不是在美國發生這樣子的一個違法的事件所以可是我們現在特別要提的因為他犯的都是重罪甚至最高可以判到無期徒刑"},{"start":5470.16,"end":5493.258,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下他外交替代藝男他是以計劃助理身份持公務的護照代表國家他是代表國家的他到我們的友邦或友好國家去扶勤那像這樣的情況有沒有什麼樣的行政調查因為這是代表我們國家你當初要去的時候"},{"start":5493.979,"end":5515.691,"text":"是怎麼樣做他的背景調查而且他還是他的專長是一些網路啊科技方面的這些專長我們派到聖路西亞邦交國的時候他甚至還在警察學校擔任講師那現在會不會因為憑藉外交人員身份從事非法活動會讓我們的邦交國也覺得我們這樣是太離譜了"},{"start":5519.557,"end":5540.232,"text":"是跟委員說明當然我們未來這個例子一定要做好好的檢討當然替代易蘭是內政部易政司他在做這個審查但是當然出具了就代表我們國家那這一次其實是美國聯邦調查局跟我們政府其實在"},{"start":5542.214,"end":5565.371,"text":"在這個調查過程是有一些交流合作所以並不是狀況外只是因為在偵辦中我們也不能夠先有什麼動作不過並不是說報導之後我們才知道是在那個他在轉機過境的時候其實我們跟美國已經有取得這個雙方面的一個聯繫來跟我們也全力在配合他們偵辦"},{"start":5567.641,"end":5588.002,"text":"因為我們在詢問的時候那時候外交部是說不知道的這個是兩種也然不同的一個狀況因為我們在91年3月的時候曾經簽署臺美行事司法互助協定就這個部分因為美方在逮捕持有臺灣公務護照入境的這樣子的一個代表國家的人"},{"start":5588.542,"end":5594.604,"text":"如果我們都在狀況外這個也表示我們的聯繫溝通是有很大的問題或者他們也不信任我們所以就這個部分當然部長剛剛有提到說其實我們事先知情那就已經事先知情那為什麼我們不是由我們去採取這樣的動作這也很奇怪是由美國人過境這美國的司法主席沒有那表示他過境的時候才知道我講的外交部不是說就是我們外交部其實我們政府的其他的部會跟我們外交部在駐外的單位"},{"start":5617.791,"end":5635.946,"text":"我是有外交部去抓啦我意思是說如果你是事先知情那你已經知道這個人有問題因為他在我們的邦交國他在邦交國他是教警察學校他過境的時候是美國先出手他反而不是我們自己掌握以後我們自己有所動作這是兩個問題"},{"start":5638.468,"end":5639.249,"text":"下面我們請林楚瑩委員發言"},{"start":5673.481,"end":5674.75,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請林部長"},{"start":5680.984,"end":5681.624,"text":"沒有聲音是不是?"},{"start":5719.744,"end":5728.148,"text":"主席這個時間我們就不暫停但是等一下就再給我多一點時間"},{"start":5742.039,"end":5755.528,"text":"好,這個我們委員會拜託以後這個真的有測試的話要協助我們一下,不然的話這樣聽不到,對。可以找個時間到委員那裡做一個比較詳盡的報告。好,謝謝政次。"},{"start":5769.205,"end":5773.568,"text":"這段發言跟詢答的內容有沒有覺得哪裡不妥當?"},{"start":5777.018,"end":5782.543,"text":"昨天我在質詢有關於田正四的時候特別提到了那就是參加完520之後那麼這個出席的澳洲的國會議員回去他們就接收到了中國的這個駐澳洲的這個代表處的相關的這個警告信函"},{"start":5800.217,"end":5812.955,"text":"那我就問了田正志說那除了澳洲之外還有沒有其他的地方田正志回答我說委員那我是不是下一次我在一個比較妥當的地方不要公開我私下跟您來報告您覺得有沒有什麼不妥當的地方"},{"start":5815.305,"end":5840.555,"text":"一時無法回答是嗎我直接告訴你答案因為剛剛這個放影片已經浪費了大概快兩分鐘是這個未來喔在5月24號修正過之後的立院職權行使法所有相關的外交國防的機密在委員會當中可不是我說了算還得要主席同意是機密才是機密所以說以剛剛那樣的詢答恐怕已經犯了藐視國會罪"},{"start":5842.156,"end":5846.586,"text":"因為他沒有立刻回答我他得要回去之後才要告訴我"},{"start":5847.768,"end":5874.954,"text":"所以其實本席是要特別提醒的是有關於國防或外交很多東西可能無法公開來做但是現在如果立院職權行使法的修正再加上國民黨跟民眾黨所提出的刑法的修正那麼這不只是不回答喔有可能還要有刑事上面的判決喔那麼現在如果說會議主席裁定是機密才能夠保留不回答沒有所謂的"},{"start":5877.021,"end":5901.758,"text":"虛偽回應或或者虛偽陳述又或者是不回應那麼我想要問的就是外交部在這裡針對接下來如果這個真的三讀通過要實施的立院職權行使法的時候外交部現在開始應用了嗎怎麼來做剛剛那個詢答您聽不出來有什麼問題我想在場的人可能也都不知道到底哪裡有問題對現在沒問題但接下來如果這個法規過了就恐怕有問題"},{"start":5906.82,"end":5906.841,"text":"是!"},{"start":5908.407,"end":5910.708,"text":"部長我的提醒就是接下來到底那條線要劃在哪裡因為法規上面是非常不明確的所以我只能說今天在這裡"},{"start":5937.9,"end":5954.413,"text":"認為未來可以私下跟委員做報告的不表示就可以這樣回答因為只要發問的委員不開心主席決定那不是所謂的秘密就得在這個質詢台上做回應當然另外還有一個就是對於我們民進黨來講我們從頭到尾都認為這度法令是假改革真擴權"},{"start":5959.457,"end":5959.637,"text":"不然 哪裏不同"},{"start":5983.496,"end":6001.194,"text":"那個是屬於調閱權不是調查權那因為我們憲法上的規定不管是司法或監察的調查權有它的專屬但是我們國會要行使職權也必須要有一定的調閱權這是經過大法官會議的解釋那你怎麼樣來充實這個調閱權"},{"start":6003.777,"end":6030.978,"text":"因為我們立法院我當過立委但我現在是外交部長我不能替別人講話就是我們的聽證制度可以再做一個怎麼樣能夠來精進讓它確實比較像聽證制度而這個比較像的時候同時也就它在調位上當然就有相對的權利義務所以它不是對人的調查權或者是說因為無限去擴充所以我們是依照大法官解釋當時的配合修法整套的"},{"start":6032.218,"end":6058.356,"text":"這個是不能夠只看一個,更何況我沒有去提國會藐視國會罪這種字眼因為這是真的是這個定義就會比較模糊一點部長趁這個機會讓你好好解釋一下因為未來很有可能在野黨如果不理解認為他們所提的版本就是當年你所提出來的那你可能就會批評這個所謂換了位子換了腦子那這個部分我也希望"},{"start":6059.156,"end":6079.455,"text":"外交部因為本身有很多的外交秘密在進行甚至有很多的外交的合作他其實是在進行中但無法開誠布公也不是立法委員可以藉由立法院的所謂言論免責權可以特別去把它彰顯出來因為這個危害到的都是國家的安全的部分"},{"start":6079.775,"end":6106.022,"text":"但是怎麼樣去細緻的來做執行恐怕外交部是要有所因應跟討論尤其是到立法院來備詢或者是立委要求所資的部分另外我的時間有限我想部長一定知道昨天有美國的議員來到台灣訪問甚至於來到了我們外交委員會其中我特別關注的這一位是站在我跟王定宇委員中間的這位金映玉因為她曾經提出了不歧視台灣的法案"},{"start":6107.262,"end":6117.485,"text":"其中非常重要的就是讓台灣可以加入INF那麼剛剛我看到這個部長的報告非常的支持這部分就是台灣can help要變成是台灣can lead那麼INF這個議題台灣加入的部分我曾經質詢過央行總裁彭金龍當時他告訴我說很抱歉因為台灣不是聯合國的會員國但是本席找了資料事實上不是聯合國的會員國科索沃他也有加入"},{"start":6134.93,"end":6157.239,"text":"再來是我們都知道中國的因素會使我們無法來進行進入國際組織但是在INF當中我不知道部長是否知道他並不是所有的會員國一起來投票而是有一個理事會而且這個理事會事實上不是票票等值他是依照有一個所謂的特別提撥權就是SDR他是依照GDP以及他的外匯存底來做比數跟佔比"},{"start":6161.661,"end":6172.452,"text":"因為時間有限我直接讓部長知道在這樣的所謂的特別的理事會當中的所謂特別提款權當中美國他所佔的比重是17%言下之意"},{"start":6175.168,"end":6185.616,"text":"美國這樣一個比重最高的國家會員國支持台灣加入IMF有議員提出來如果這個法案能夠順利在美國過關的話台灣加入IMF的機會就會相對的提高因為在這個全體的表決權當中美國佔17日本佔6.14雖然中國有6%但是我們還有德國法國"},{"start":6198.966,"end":6211.92,"text":"還有英國這些其他的友邦都可以加入讓台灣有機會加入當然我們知道台灣也許在經濟穩定的部分或是金融制度上面是跟得上國際的但是能多增加一個國際組織對我們來說就是有機會能夠跟世界發聲更何況只要加入IFF台灣的金融人員可以"},{"start":6220.169,"end":6220.61,"text":"外交部部長林佳龍"},{"start":6235.763,"end":6256.598,"text":"是,其實所有的問題都源起於聯大2758號解釋被中國給這個扭曲那這個現在已經引起世界的注意那包括美國,所以2758號決議只處理中國代表權沒有涉及台灣代表權的問題所以台灣可以參加所有的跟聯合國還有周邊國家有關的國際組織"},{"start":6259.52,"end":6273.868,"text":"所以我們自己外交部也要有這個認識因為這個是中共在發動法律戰他透過他的一些鐵桿的盟友到處在講2758是一個一中原則那美國說他的一中政策是盡量台灣關係法"},{"start":6275.909,"end":6301.435,"text":"另外再加3個公報或6項保證所以台灣關係法才是美國真正的一中政策的基礎所以這個時候就有不同版本了嘛所以我們不要去只聽信一種然後他是為什麼打壓越來越厲害包括在這一次的世界衛生組織的大會就是因為他只包不住火了嘛因為27582長期被壟斷性的這個扭曲的解釋啊已經這個神話已經破了"},{"start":6304.428,"end":6320.536,"text":"全世界都知道台灣要參加因為參加是符合聯合國精神這些普世的價值跟人權比如說我們四個最主要的國際組織沒辦法參加都是因為中共而這個都是損人不利己的包括世界衛生組織國際民航組織還有包括氣候公約的這個組織以及國際刑警的組織"},{"start":6326.519,"end":6330.362,"text":"這個所有都是跨國界的現象包括衛生還有包括這個航空的安全以及這個氣候變遷甚至是國際性的犯罪包括其實我現在提出來的國際貨幣基金就是RMF部長因為我的時間有限我最後只希望我提出這樣的一個事實以及陳述之後我希望外交部能夠把它當成另外一個你們今年的目標"},{"start":6352.179,"end":6377.454,"text":"包括如何的來積極推動跟參與因為它不是沒有機會但是如果把它放進來對於台灣的金融穩定金融安全甚至於在金融上面不要忘了我們的這個外匯存底高達有5860億美元這對於我們來說都是非常好的一個利器那麼除了這個之前講到的外交邦交跟非邦交國上面的輔助之外積極的參與國際組織"},{"start":6379.295,"end":6380.576,"text":"接下來請王帝宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":6410.745,"end":6411.588,"text":"否則你整期都不可以回去了"},{"start":6414.38,"end":6440.137,"text":"你這樣我不叫你也很難我本來要叫別人的請部長還有其他所有業館相關的司長我就不另外邀請就自動上來就相關的人聽到題目就可以上來謝謝主席第一個題目要跟部長討論因為身為我們國家的外交部長也是國家對外的發言人最近美國在大概剩下5個月要選總統"},{"start":6442.205,"end":6461.513,"text":"先任總統拜登首次以總統的身份在西點軍校的畢業典禮發表演說,裡面談到美國會為台灣海峽的和平與穩定挺身而出,後來又接著講說美國是勇於為盟友動用武力來防衛。"},{"start":6463.015,"end":6484.773,"text":"他講完之後大概不到24小時,華盛頓郵報揭露了川普在一場募款參會,但是他沒有特別點出詳細的地點。川普講的是,美國如果他當總統,俄羅斯入侵烏克蘭,他會轟炸莫斯科,中國入侵台灣,他會轟炸北京。"},{"start":6485.851,"end":6511.011,"text":"那這裡面來自美國的民主共和兩黨的總統候選人的發言當然我們知道在選舉期間會有選舉的用詞而總統或者總統候選人跟未來組成的administration他的所謂的行政部門還是會有點不一樣但我要請教部長你怎麼去回應評論美國兩個他們兩個一定有一個下一任總統"},{"start":6511.932,"end":6512.833,"text":"謝謝委員其實美國是對台灣的支持特別是台海的"},{"start":6539.471,"end":6558.88,"text":"和平跟穩定是跨黨派而且跨行政立法部門這從最近的撥款法案的通過就可以看到臺灣是在三個國家這個大概可以視為美國社會的主流意見大概對臺灣的支持是主流第二個"},{"start":6559.76,"end":6585.708,"text":"這個是選舉活動所以Bipartisan也就在美國的民主共和兩黨對這個是意見大概也有共識那外顯的行為就是撥完法案台灣其實是最有高度共識的從得票數跟討論過程包含麥考爾和馬靠萊的發言但我現在講的是你作為一個國家現在是外交部長這兩個有一個一定會成為未來的美國總統我們政府要不要回應"},{"start":6587.304,"end":6609.899,"text":"怎麼回應本席現在在外交委員會正式問你這問題所謂戰略清晰應該講說戰略越來越清晰其實美國的這個對台或對中的政策他是建立在台灣關係法這個是最基本然後才有所謂三個公報跟六項保證那過去好像變成好像變成在所謂的要戰略模糊"},{"start":6610.68,"end":6632.786,"text":"其實你還是要按照美國的實際上的政策去跟他的台灣關係碼去做解釋美國日本其實包含北約他們過去的ambiguity或者strategic ambiguity他代表的大概是大概在2013年以前方便跟台灣跟中國之間的互動保持一個模糊這個模糊裡面有一個核心就是有關"},{"start":6633.806,"end":6661.033,"text":"是否出兵協助這個事情保持模糊我讓你猜可是那時候是因為中國的兵力遠不及於美國我讀你不敢challenge不敢挑戰那這兩年特別是從川普的任內的最後一年到這兩年那大概在台灣的安全議題上就如同剛才部長講的逐漸走向戰略清晰不管是前官員或現任官員但是我現在這一題我要請教部長的是"},{"start":6662.25,"end":6679.401,"text":"你認為這兩位的發言可被反映出或者是否代表美國行政部門的態度因為一個是現任三軍統帥一個是承認三軍統帥是不是代表美國對於台灣安全議題的戰略清晰"},{"start":6682.039,"end":6682.399,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":6700.096,"end":6714.956,"text":"這有沒有代表美國行政部門的態度跟委員報告當然我沒有辦法替他們講不過從我們這個角度來看的話我們是在維持現狀而且是在我們的政策延續之下是中共不斷的改變現狀有所出現新常態"},{"start":6716.137,"end":6737.775,"text":"這個引起了全世界的緊張先從安倍首相他講台灣有事就是日本有事其實他最重要的一句話就是日美安保有事同樣的美國跟這些第一島鏈國家我這一題我要把它結束起來我建議外交部北美是這邊去思考一下這一題要不要回應剛才部長講得很好我們不要替美國政府"},{"start":6739.123,"end":6764.848,"text":"我認為他是首相戰略信息我們不替外國政府去分析這個但我們政府怎麼去回應美國總統大選當中這個議題因為現在才還有五個月才投票這個議題後面還有大選辯論會越來越多所以應該我們國家的外交部對這個事情要有一個看法穩定的看法對我們台灣國家安全戰略有益的看法這是我今天提這一題提醒外交部的"},{"start":6765.428,"end":6788.426,"text":"第二題是有關眾議院外委會主席 McCall昨天來我們台灣的外交委員會他大概我印象中是第一個美國的外交委員會的主席進到我們外交委員會的會議室以前Ed Royce是到院長室沒有進到這裡來那後來到議場外面拍照的時候他也提到這兩天台灣的"},{"start":6790.367,"end":6802.026,"text":"年輕人的民主抗議活動他認為這個是呈現出臺灣的力量民主的象徵他還說臺灣是民主的燈塔他還直接跟習近平講跟Chairman Xi他說"},{"start":6804.025,"end":6828.575,"text":"這個跟中國的香港也就香港民運跟八九六四天安門不一樣這是一個sign of strength這是一個力量的展現那裡面也提到希望在民主的國家對抗獨裁的威脅美國的民主共和台灣的民進黨國民黨可以一起來合作對抵禦中國的脅迫也提到國防力量等等那我這邊要具體問的是"},{"start":6829.895,"end":6857.768,"text":"他站在韓國瑜院長身邊提到說有關FMF也就是無償軍援的部分還有軍售的項目的部分他站在那裡代表美國的兩黨表達會儘速交付我請教外交部雖然是軍售項目也許不是你們直接項目但是麥考爾是外委會主席我們有沒有了解他所提的儘速交付是什麼項目儘速是多快"},{"start":6859.042,"end":6865.543,"text":"你們有沒有掌握這個訊息?所有的這些過去答應的項目當然就是"},{"start":6867.339,"end":6890.281,"text":"因為他產線的問題嘛當然現在進速交付就是他的方向是這樣可是實際上當然有些項目會比較快有些項目會比較慢對啦我當然知道有些項目但現在有沒有他已經表達說他要進速交付了嘛是那他也代表說他是代表By Partisan在那邊表達這個意見那有沒有也許跟美團"},{"start":6890.982,"end":6891.823,"text":"外交部有沒有掌握這個訊息?"},{"start":6909.262,"end":6928.334,"text":"有一些訊息啦當然我那個應該講說他的目的最主要是說因為台灣的國會要支持啦沒有這個不是美國單方要不要交因為有時候涉及到軍購是國會我們的預算其實他來的是說他是百partisan他希望美國百partisan台灣也百partisan我們的預算是都通過囉"},{"start":6929.495,"end":6949.567,"text":"那發架書啊什麼那個在跑流程後來因為COVID又因為二五戰爭還有因為一些軍火問題我的意思說如果沒有掌握或不便講我可以接受我們不見得一定要在那邊討論但我的意思說如果有掌握能夠讓國人了解當然我們越透明是越好啦那所以目前外交部有沒有掌握這個訊息"},{"start":6950.848,"end":6966.28,"text":"我是有看到一些訊息但是因為這個還是要跟國防部還有我們到底哪些項目是那個外電回來跟實際上到底情況這個還有主管機關我也是要不變講我們就這個基於國家利益該守的命令還是要守"},{"start":6966.98,"end":6990.148,"text":"但是我是建議美方跟我們這邊要溝通適度的透明讓國人可以安心我最後請教這一題可能要我們資深的司長來回答2021年本席在這邊提問當時有掌握到我們因為關島越來越重要關島為什麼重要你知道嗎以前是美方軍售我們有些項目他不方便及時交付給我們他會暫存在關島"},{"start":6991.809,"end":7013.229,"text":"現在沒有了啦但是呢關島因為北馬里亞納那邊的空軍基地海軍陸戰隊基地冰海戰鬥軟體都恢復然後呢新加坡的空軍訓練到那裡另外呢你看北約的不管是印度的或者是日本的這些自由民主聯盟的軍事運籌與維握的核心之一"},{"start":7014.21,"end":7033.747,"text":"是關島所以關島也提升他們的防衛力量然後呢也加強周邊的他們相關的島最近到與那國等等都有做一些部署所以關島可以說是第一島鏈第一島鏈的核心其實是台灣到第二島鏈的關鍵點大概就是關島中間夾的就是西太平洋跟"},{"start":7034.428,"end":7034.948,"text":"外交部部長林佳龍"},{"start":7055.295,"end":7070.54,"text":"派軍事聯絡組因為我們現在美團我們的軍事聯絡團是在DC但有些軍事聯絡員會在美國的一些像我們在Arizona有空軍授訓就會派駐聯絡官那我們那時候認為關島"},{"start":7072.321,"end":7085.739,"text":"我們外交部從關起來把關島的住管關掉好像過兩年吧又副管那時候第一任第一任恢復社管的代表好像是陳一年嘛是派陳一年去嘛後來"},{"start":7087.15,"end":7088.17,"text":"因為這個派駐的人員都要是臺美雙方溝通"},{"start":7114.639,"end":7129.85,"text":"也不便在這裡多說吧這個在國務院已經跑三年了耶因為涉及到這個跑三年還有一些具體的還是在八點在討價還價或者是說認為不便現在到底進度到哪裡能不能了解"},{"start":7131.25,"end":7153.101,"text":"現在還有在進行一些溝通所以這個案子是活的還是死的還在還在那為什麼花三年有一些資訊雙方需要再溝通的根據題例如說讓我們知道我們跟美國國會議員溝通的時候我們可以提出這個需要因為這個是實質需求我們要有一個聯絡組在那裡甚至於那邊的跟日本的相關軍演媒體都揭露了我們有人員去過嘛"},{"start":7153.941,"end":7154.862,"text":"接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":7186.053,"end":7186.313,"text":"林佳龍部長"},{"start":7198.007,"end":7218.773,"text":"部長首先恭喜你就任,我想不同的部長會有不同的風格,每一任的部長因為他的不同風格,也會為不同的部門帶來不同的成就。所以我想先問一下,你認為你接下來的風格會跟前任有什麼樣的不一樣?"},{"start":7219.633,"end":7219.653,"text":"有"},{"start":7243.736,"end":7260.288,"text":"社群媒體社群媒體的部分都交接好了嗎是那未來你打算要怎麼樣使用這個平台那跟過去的吳部長你覺得會有什麼樣的一些差異"},{"start":7261.469,"end":7264.83,"text":"以外交部機關要發布的重要或正確訊息為主是你接下來可能在社群平台會使用的風格,我這樣的陳述您同意嗎?同意"},{"start":7287.196,"end":7297.481,"text":"那再來呢前任的外交部長在他還沒有卸任的時候經常在公開的場合發表有關於很多國防的議題舉例來說我這邊放了幾樣吳釗燮說"},{"start":7302.403,"end":7319.75,"text":"中國鎖定台灣是戰爭行為：或者是接受法媒專訪說中國如果開戰台灣將付出重大代價2027年台海爆發戰爭嗎吳釗燮部長說共軍目前並沒有為侵台做準備然後還有很多"},{"start":7320.55,"end":7337.422,"text":"吳釗燮CNN專訪示警﹚中國試圖對台灣發生戰爭﹚中國正為攻台醞釀新藉口﹚其實從外交的角度來看這些都是已經屬於灰色地帶跟擦邊球了"},{"start":7337.862,"end":7361.292,"text":"甚至很多的議題應該是要由我們的國防部長來做正式的回答而不是由外交部長的這個角色所以我想要請問一下林佳龍部長未來你在任內你是否會依循前一位的部長用這種可能會介入到國防部長職權的方式接受國外媒體的訪問"},{"start":7363.049,"end":7383.841,"text":"跟委員報告我當然會就外交部的業務我主政的為主不過就像說立法院是外交國防委員會這都是國安的一部分這怎麼樣分工合作或有沒有需要更高的這個層次來溝通協調我想這方面我們會多加注意"},{"start":7384.981,"end":7404.708,"text":"另外,前任部長吳釗燮已經就任了新的位置在國安會的秘書長。就我今天得知的訊息是,到昨天,他還在媒體的群組持續發表新聞稿,說他見了哪一些來自國外的貴賓。"},{"start":7405.908,"end":7421.519,"text":"那會不會變成是我們在外交上面有雙頭馬車的問題未來我們在整個外交體系上面外交部跟國安會我們應該要如何協調跟統一想請教部長您的看法"},{"start":7422.378,"end":7436.802,"text":"是當然我們憲法或者是相關的法都有規定包括外交部的職權然後國防部的職權那國安會他是總統會決定國家大政方針設的幕僚機構"},{"start":7438.923,"end":7453.7,"text":"是那這個部分當然就是他的職權所以比如說我們發生一些事情像這個瓜地馬拉咖啡跟這個夏威夷豆可能受到因為跟我們這個邦交的關係被中共那邊刁難"},{"start":7455.321,"end":7476.196,"text":"但是一般來說國安會就我們過去來講像顧立雄部長在擔任的時候就很少說我見了哪一些訪兵然後我發布新聞稿我來講這個事情如果繼續有類似的情況請問林部長會不會覺得您作為外交部長的職權被逾越了"},{"start":7477.233,"end":7505.966,"text":"我做我該做的,說我該說的。所以就這一點,我們外交部也有發新聞稿。那部長您在前任部長任內,我們斷交了8個國家。所以前任的部長也被認為是斷交部長。那您剛上任,剛才馬昭偉也有詢問關於友邦的部分是否有信心。那我還要額外問一個問題是,部長在您的任內,您有沒有信心去爭取到新"},{"start":7508.727,"end":7535.414,"text":"我們現在也確實有一些國家想跟我們建立更緊密的關係但是我們就是秉持就是價值外交這樣的一個路線就不是因為說要什麼為了多一個少一個邦交國或涉入到金錢外交但是他們看到臺灣跟我們交往會來他們國家的發展所以確實有一些我們的邦交國的周邊國家可能也覺得說跟我們交往也有很正面的地方"},{"start":7535.714,"end":7538.556,"text":"我希望部長可以盡量的去做因為我大概掌握是哪些國家但是呢我覺得不想要在這裡去講讓你們的工作去破局因為能夠增加更多的邦交國這是我們大家引頸期盼的"},{"start":7554.485,"end":7571.332,"text":"過去的斷交部長如果林佳龍部長能夠變成是增加邦交的部長我相信不管是對您個人對外交部甚至對中華民國都是非常好的發展所以我們很期待在不久的未來能夠看到有新的邦交國的可能性"},{"start":7572.473,"end":7594.215,"text":"接下來我也想要請問一下一些外交的時事首先我們有一位23歲的台灣男子涉嫌販毒到紐約被逮捕那外交部證實了是外交替代一男我想要請問一下這個外交替代一男現在目前的情況是如何的那我們這邊會如何去做相關的處置"},{"start":7595.676,"end":7619.39,"text":"跟委員報告,因為在過境美國紐約的時候,因為其實他們對方美國已經偵辦相當的時間,在這個調查的過程,有跟我們相關的單位有聯繫,所以是有一些掌握,那現在就是因為這個是偵辦是由美國,因為他的司法權所在。"},{"start":7619.79,"end":7619.81,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":7649.702,"end":7649.942,"text":"我們會發表抗議嗎?"},{"start":7667.11,"end":7667.39,"text":"上週我們有三位同仁"},{"start":7683.442,"end":7706.376,"text":"不分黨派的立委同仁去WHA參加活動我們在疫情期間幫助了很多國家但是我們聯合國的秘書長雖然說給予肯定可是這次卻無法參加還說要看其他會員國但是我們從2009到2016是可以以觀察員的身份參加但從2017年開始就不行了"},{"start":7706.816,"end":7713.551,"text":"那這部分部長有沒有信心在未來我們有機會能夠爭取到再次以觀察員身份參加的機會?"},{"start":7715.834,"end":7740.131,"text":"我們要更努力啦,因為確實也更嚴峻嘛,這一個環境但是我們從這一次為台灣發聲的,包括發言或者是聯名性的國家有增加,它那個內容也更強度越來越高所以我想這個對於台灣參加是目的但是這個過程當中我們用各種的方式"},{"start":7742.174,"end":7763.482,"text":"最後一個跟這個外交比較沒關係但跟您個人有關係的我想詢問就是最近被討論的這個王逸川先生民進黨的這個政策會執行長因為他都被認為是您的子弟兵您帶出來的但他最近身為民進黨的執行長卻在節目上表達說他可以取得"},{"start":7764.502,"end":7781.917,"text":"參加不同活動的民眾的各自去比對我個人認為這樣子的行為是違反通保法以及各自法想要請問部長因為他都被說是您的子弟兵所以您的對這件事情的看法是什麼我想我們也想要知道一下"},{"start":7783.257,"end":7806.243,"text":"王逸川就是王逸川林佳龍是林佳龍我也沒有跟他有什麼討論沒有跟他討論我想由他自己來回應但是您認為就是說從您過去的各種政治參與經驗是有辦法去得到去識別化的個資這樣子的一個事情嗎這個事情我到目前真的沒有很清楚這個個案的情況好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"},{"start":7811.271,"end":7819.719,"text":"好謝謝我們待會王宏威委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":7840.609,"end":7858.682,"text":"請部長部長好部長首先先歡迎你回到立法院來備詢這份過程應該是比過去的都還要更挑戰因為他必須要面臨國會的一些質詢等等但這也是一個機會"},{"start":7861.044,"end":7863.686,"text":"首先部長我們先看一下我們這一個PVT Powerpoint這邊"},{"start":7885.991,"end":7911.763,"text":"這個2024年的5月有一場兩岸選手面對面那活動是在廈門大學舉辦的那其中有包含臺灣統一聯盟黨的黨主席那這位黨主席也是教授他過去也曾經是外交官那裡面有提到說相關關於一個中國原則的論述我想請教部長您看到這邊"},{"start":7913.584,"end":7940.756,"text":"臉書貼文之後有什麼想法跟看法?裡面有什麼錯誤的訊息你希望能夠來給予澄清?我想中共有他們的使觀跟對這個法律他們的解釋不過如果以涉及到的臺灣地位來講那他舉例的這幾個其實都不是在國際法上這個是就是具有國際法直接效力"},{"start":7941.056,"end":7942.517,"text":"請問部長上述的看法你怎麼看?"},{"start":7962.915,"end":7982.267,"text":"因為這個如果從國際法的角度當然是舊青山合約是最重要的那對2758號決議因為這個衍生後面最接近的就是這個聯大的那個決議那這個決議中共最近又有進一步法律戰要把它等同於一中原則"},{"start":7983.488,"end":8009.239,"text":"事實上2758決議美國講得很清楚世界各國的民主國家也就這個只處理的中國代表權不涉及台灣的這個地位所以這也是為什麼我們現在要參加國際組織不是被一中原則綁住更何況各國有不同版本的一中政策不以美國來講他的一中政是建立在台灣關係法三個公報再加六項保證那所以"},{"start":8010.279,"end":8031.067,"text":"對於像美國國會議員來他遵循的可能台灣關係法更是對他們有直接法律效力沒錯所以部長一中原則就是不等同於一中政策嘛對不對對是不是可以再簡單的跟我們全國國民講一下到底一中原則中國的一中原則是荒謬在哪邊那各國的一中政策是不同在哪裡特別是美國的"},{"start":8033.223,"end":8061.789,"text":"美國都常講他們版本各國也可以有各國的版本台灣也是我們可以有自己的版本涉及到的一些兩岸政策那一中原則因為中共壟斷對一個中國的解釋他的三段論很清楚就算世界上只有一個中國那這個台灣是中國的一部分那中華人民共和國代表中國所以他連環套之後我們只要進入一中原則台灣的主權就是被中華人民共和國代表"},{"start":8062.829,"end":8073.037,"text":"可是國際上都不認為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣的名義也是如此因為我們去參加國際組織只要你開始接受一中原則簡單來講"},{"start":8075.031,"end":8093.849,"text":"你就變成可能另外一個香港因為一中原則處理就是台灣的主權是歸屬所以這個時候我們要去爭取人權比如說我們加入世界衛生組織我們是一種人權可是如果你犧牲主權那你也換不到人權這個就是現在我們全世界對中國一中原則他認為說他壟斷了解釋那不斷的去造成改變現狀"},{"start":8099.594,"end":8121.85,"text":"謝謝部長,所以剛才我們提供部長一個機會的意思就是說我們就像你報告裡面講到中國持續在國際場域來鞏固一中的格局不管是用歷史文件用他們的論述用他們的延環套這種方式用一中原則來去壟斷對中國論述的整個在國際社會的聲音那這些都是對我們是有傷害的"},{"start":8122.19,"end":8148.208,"text":"所以透過部長也好或者是我們各位在場的每位外交官也好這每一個場合裡面要確實的把論述從法律的條文也好到我們現在的國際現實的政治也好一一的都要去述明那我必須再強調不管是現任的外交官或者是以後卸任的外交官我們對國家的責任都還是一樣重要對於台灣的國際地位跟空間的論述我們要確實要澄清論述絕對不能夠輸論述絕對不能夠填"},{"start":8150.35,"end":8169.428,"text":"﹗"},{"start":8169.828,"end":8174.071,"text":"美國戰爭研究所和美國企業研究所在5月13日聯合發表《從脅迫到投降,中國如何不戰而奪台》"},{"start":8185.518,"end":8208.476,"text":"恐於恐怕會在賴清德總統的四年任期之間軍事、經濟、訊息還有網路四大領域分階段的來去禁閉台灣那來去分化台灣社會來去嚇阻台灣的反對中國共產黨的人士如果說四年後的時機成熟那中國可能甚至是假意去遞出和平的訊息會提出所謂的和平方案"},{"start":8213.98,"end":8230.253,"text":"關於這個部份我想要請教部長因為這個不是只跟國防相關這跟外交也有相關這跟國安外交甚至是內政全部都有相關在外交部長的立場上你怎麼看這個部份"},{"start":8232.648,"end":8259.225,"text":"其實沒有主權就沒有人權也沒有產權這個是現在全世界的一個對台灣的支持因為台灣已經是民主的國家至於說台灣內部對於國家的定位或者是什麼樣的走向那是民主過程的一部分可是對外來代表的話其實現在國際法上面有一個趨勢就是和平手段就是這個從G7在廣島"},{"start":8261.772,"end":8276.04,"text":"大家共同的發言就是為什麼中共企圖把台灣問題變成好像中國的內政要把台海內海化而世界各國的反應不是因為台灣而已而是因為這一個改變所謂的"},{"start":8278.26,"end":8301.105,"text":"新的一個常態將會改變整個世界的秩序所以台灣過去也許人家覺得說這只是兩岸問題台灣要去面對可是現在發現這是中國有問題世界要來面對所以我覺得台灣是順著這個國際趨勢來講中共不只是對台灣有主權的這個野心他在整個擴張上面已經引起世界的一個"},{"start":8302.705,"end":8327.979,"text":"謝謝部長這個講得非常好那我必須再強調剛才部長提到的新的現狀比如說中國現在要打破軍事中國不要維持現狀那在這個狀況之下過去台灣都是在中國的框架之下被討論所以你看在馬英九前總統時期甚至在更早之前的陳水扁前總統時期只要談到台灣大概就是在中國的框架之下所以台灣沒有本身的主體性沒有談到台灣的產業沒有談到台灣的經濟沒有談到台灣的文化"},{"start":8330.18,"end":8357.882,"text":"所以現在剛好是一個既是最大的挑戰也是最大的機會所以我們很希望外交部能夠扮演起更重要的角色因為我們剛才提到的包含部長講的你從法律開始講你從過去的國際條約開始講你從每一個訊息開始說因為我們要面對中國的挑戰就是信息戰、法律戰、金融戰甚至是所有的論述我們都要做好準備在這個中共的非戰爭脅迫行動裡面的策略還有一個重點"},{"start":8358.542,"end":8381.312,"text":"就是用廣泛的宣傳降低美國公眾和政治領袖支持台灣的意願這個部分我想部長在昨天拜訪我們辦公室的時候也有提到說跟國會的參眾議員之間的互動之外跟行政系統上面的互動部長各位解釋一下或者是要反映一下怎麼樣來反制降低美國公眾和政治領袖支持台灣的意願"},{"start":8382.052,"end":8408.82,"text":"是,其實中共是拿台灣對全世界其實發動了所謂的三戰法律戰、心理戰跟輿論戰那透過因為現在它數位集權所掌控的科技它也進行長臂的管轄甚至要統治所以這已經侵犯到很多國家的內政跟他們對於基本人權的保障那在這種情況之下我覺得台灣對面對所謂他們的灰色作戰"},{"start":8411.961,"end":8435.851,"text":"臺灣的經驗很寶貴全世界都想學比如說現在中國跟俄羅斯中國就在教俄羅斯怎麼樣透過俄烏戰爭之後對於歐美這一種所謂的認知作戰臺灣是在受他們攻擊的第一線這個臺灣的價值就出來了所以價值外交這個也是另外一種臺灣存在的價值"},{"start":8437.472,"end":8452.921,"text":"所以這個總體上來講因為現在中國所採取的企圖改變現狀改變國際秩序已經讓這個中國成為一個潛在就是大家共同的一個挑戰那一起來因應"},{"start":8453.843,"end":8479.758,"text":"最後請教部長關於我們退職的軍官退職的這一些跟國家安全相關的人員那如果進入中國進入大陸地區者不得從事防害國家安全或利益之活動那我想請教說其實現在不僅僅是退役的將官曾經到中國甚至在中國的這個重要的政治場所裡面發表對台灣不利的言論之外"},{"start":8480.498,"end":8503.405,"text":"有一些退役的外交官退休的外交官那也常常有類似這樣的做法請問外交部有什麼樣相應的方式來去避免因為我必須強調喔廣泛而持久的認知心理戰也好或者是說透過宣傳降低本國或者是他國的公眾支持台灣的意願都很嚴重我想請教有沒有相關的內規或者是未來有沒有什麼修法的方向"},{"start":8504.738,"end":8504.958,"text":"接下來請王宏威委員上台質詢"},{"start":8539.483,"end":8566.791,"text":"謝謝主席請林部長部長在前任部長吳釗燮部長他在卸任之前他曾經接受過媒體的訪問他談了一些就是未來我們外交關係上面的一些處境還有值得要重視的地方在5月9號的時候他接受媒體採訪"},{"start":8568.191,"end":8590.372,"text":"他說我們有兩個邦交國是有長期隱憂的那麼外交圈是盛傳他所謂的兩個國家可能是指的是海地跟瓜地馬拉那我不曉得在你們交接的過程裡面吳部長有沒有跟你談到就是這個事情有沒有談到這兩個國家"},{"start":8592.312,"end":8592.612,"text":"在短期之內因為在我們"},{"start":8608.257,"end":8610.337,"text":"外界還是會認為我們的邦交國隨時有可能也會採取突襲式的斷交所以我想請問一下在我們今年底之前部長"},{"start":8631.622,"end":8655.059,"text":"你不管基於你過去的工作職務或者你現在的任職有沒有可能還會有邦交國對我們採取突襲式的斷交或者是就是斷交那跟委員報告中共是一定會出手的啦會挖我們的邦交國所以我們要做最壞的打算做最好的努力所以最壞打算是還是有可能對不對"},{"start":8656.055,"end":8681.76,"text":"因為他很多的手段我舉個例子來講比如有些國家因為涉及到華為他只要進入那個國家之後可能會影響不只他的電信他的這個資通訊甚至他很多人民的這個需要的建設跟服務美國跟我們理念相近的國家就有乾淨網絡這個時候呢我們的友邦需要一些數位的建設跟服務"},{"start":8682.6,"end":8688.946,"text":"所以我想請問一下,到目前為止您的任職裡面是跟吳釗燮部長是一樣的嗎?目前兩個國家有長期引用,因為你剛剛這樣又講了一個華為的這個外交站,那是不是事實上是超過兩個國家?"},{"start":8710.541,"end":8730.853,"text":"中共對台灣要挖邦交國是全面的,我們絕對不能把它當作兩個。對,所以你不會那麼樂觀說只有兩個。對,我不是用這個數字來看,我是覺得他們國家發展所需要的台灣能不能參與,然後能不能跟包括友邦,像美國、日本、澳洲一起來參與。我舉個例子,比如說土瓦魯。"},{"start":8732.288,"end":8733.469,"text":"另外請問一下教廷的部分"},{"start":8757.512,"end":8768.092,"text":"因為最近教廷有發表說他們要再跟中國建立更穩定的關係而且準備成立常設辦公室那會不會影響我們跟教廷之間的邦交"},{"start":8769.295,"end":8791.714,"text":"我們就持續在發展跟教廷的關係,包括這一次范緹剛有派代表來台灣我們有更深入的了解怎麼去發展雙邊的關係那因為這涉及到教廷他對於天主教的一個傳教他的一個目標可是他有他的原則"},{"start":8792.995,"end":8805.824,"text":"因為涉及到包括在中國傳教所遇到的問題這不是單獨變主教所有宗教都遇到所以就台灣的立場我們會不會把教廷也把它放在我們的邦交的警示的範圍之內"},{"start":8807.546,"end":8817.502,"text":"因為想說我們要持續甚至更大的努力因為中共的出手都是越來越重的所以他也在警示的範圍之內也不是說警示我對12個國家都當作寶貝每個都要顧好顧好還是要讓他發展的好"},{"start":8822.99,"end":8850.467,"text":"我們只剩下12個國家一個都不能少啦說實在這是我要努力的目標那另外請教一下這個立陶宛因為這次他們在WHA上面也有幫我們發聲但是呢立陶宛總統在他的這個選舉之前曾經講過說準備把台灣代表處未來把它改成台北代表處同樣的位置我問過那個吳部長吳部長說他有一個觀察級就是什麼"},{"start":8851.348,"end":8866.009,"text":"10月因為他們的國會全面改選所以現在新的外交部長林部長你能不能保證立陶宛的台灣代表處不會變成台北代表處"},{"start":8867.262,"end":8885.899,"text":"應該是這樣講,因為這是雙方面同意的,那未來當然對方的意見是什麼,我們的主張如何。至少是這個總統連任他有在第一時間就講,其實我們臺灣代表處的名稱是不是更改不是優先的議題。"},{"start":8888.041,"end":8891.923,"text":"他認為實質上跟台灣的關係要發展這個是雙方面基於因為其實立陶宛他對像惡霧戰爭之後他對台灣是發自內心希望跟我們交往的當然中國的這個壓力很大他也挺過來了"},{"start":8906.169,"end":8910.11,"text":"最後一個問題這個也是蠻重要就是臺灣民主基金會因為您原來也是董事現在也一定會是董事那麼在6月17號即將要這個新的"},{"start":8931.858,"end":8934.24,"text":"我們就尊重那個程序因為新的董事會召開董事長、秘書長跟相關的人士我對於特定的人選"},{"start":8960.182,"end":8978.6,"text":"我沒有特別的意見但是我覺得那個程序以及互相的諮詢那有一些慣例大家可以參考我想這個都是基於外交是一體那當然所以我只問對外因為韓院長已經非常明確的表示他是要提名盧業忠"},{"start":8979.921,"end":8998.51,"text":"所以在這個部分是不是你們可以就外交部的立場是不是可以尊重韓院長他所提名的人選按照就是組織章程來走因為這是董事會決定啦因為他是一個法人嘛他有相關的規定我們就按照那個程序來走所以如果按照組織章程來走"},{"start":9000.069,"end":9001.652,"text":"所以部長你給我答案感覺還要繼續在這個問題上繼續的糾結喔"},{"start":9011.909,"end":9021.935,"text":"你們不會糾結啦 這個就是按著程序走我希望能夠尊重韓院長 尊重組織張誠互相尊重啦 因為要尊重就要整個都尊重因為如果要講起來很長的啦包括秘書長的決定 總統的還有這個政府尤其是相關的未來的配合度其實這個民主基金會成立的時候是一個很好的開始"},{"start":9035.303,"end":9035.523,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":9066.028,"end":9070.813,"text":"這個黑咖啡是不錯的有些黑咖啡不一定好"},{"start":9434.517,"end":9448.689,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請麥玉珍委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":9458.035,"end":9481.452,"text":"部長好 委員好好久不見還記得你當市長的時候我們共同去推我們的東協廣場正式成立對啊觀光景點的現在是是是是所以要請教部長一下在2016年新南向政策推廣到現在是覺得跟哪個國家是推廣最好"},{"start":9484.229,"end":9495.854,"text":"越南很好啦,其他當然18個國家,越南、泰國應該都算是發展得很好。"},{"start":9497.371,"end":9515.87,"text":"謝謝部長,對,我們都知道就是臺灣與越南交流不只是投資,還有就是合作交流,還有就是交易、文化,還有醫療的方面,還有很大的潛力可以再發展,因為我們現在在越南"},{"start":9517.512,"end":9542.613,"text":"我們部長知道說我們現在在越南的來臺灣投資還有其他國家來投資還有我們臺灣要到越南投資的有多少人我們臺灣到越南投資喔臺商會就很多阿這個真的是應該我想他們來的是當然這兩年的有關留學生這樣前後就將近一兩萬人以上阿我們去的也超過阿"},{"start":9544.035,"end":9570.837,"text":"所以說這樣就是我們特別觀光的發展還有經濟的發展兩國的貿易的發展都是非常密切的所以在觀光和人的就是這邊的簽證的限制不管是從越南來這邊還是說我們台商過去那一邊都是兩國的之間的合作但是因為沒有開放的簽證所以呢"},{"start":9571.497,"end":9575.299,"text":"但是目前雙邊都有開放免簽越南就是為了吸引觀光客就是在今年年初的時候就開放免簽證有許多國家有被納入包含我們的鄰近的國家就是日本還有南韓"},{"start":9600.434,"end":9616.446,"text":"但可惜我們台灣並沒有納入這個名單所以南向政策推也是最好的但是沒有納入所以希望說事後我方是不是可以維持就是我們跟越南那邊就是積極爭取就是說雙方的互惠免簽證有沒有這樣子的規劃"},{"start":9624.792,"end":9642.205,"text":"當然我們現在有觀紅專案,越南觀光客來還是有嘛,有開放一些那先前疫情期間越南比較緊縮,疫情後也有一些開放那當然他們現在也有電子簽,這當然涉及到因為台越的關係只會越來越發展"},{"start":9643.866,"end":9665.788,"text":"因為在越南現在投資的台商很多特別是在新增在北越的部分那個供應鏈的移轉所以我們會跟越方來談秉持互惠對等的原則其實有人流才有金流才有各種的交流"},{"start":9670.105,"end":9683.404,"text":"對,而且不管是婚姻或者是工作還是留學我想在台越之間是越來越會蓬勃發展是,所以部長有沒有說要去爭取就是我們就是"},{"start":9684.245,"end":9709.728,"text":"越南跟台灣有就是部分的免簽或者是投資的就像我們越南在台灣就是要我我家來台灣我有一本五年的簽證我是隨時可以飛來飛去連我小孩跟先生都有所以我想說我們是不是說我們要去爭取的雙方有這樣子的不同的就是機制不同的"},{"start":9711.21,"end":9715.297,"text":"的身份來去做免簽證,對兩邊的投資都很有幫助,我們部長有沒有這樣子的未來的規劃?"},{"start":9723.618,"end":9749.392,"text":"有這是我們的目標要來聚集的推動好謝謝我們的部長就是因為呢就是雙方的貿易謝謝部長的支持再來就是我們大家最注重的就是不管嫁到哪裡我們都希望就是要有孝順我們最重要的是孝順父母但是呢我們像我們的東南亞還有我們的"},{"start":9751.973,"end":9779.907,"text":"大陸地區都是說我們要來就是讓父母來台觀光的部分或者探親的部分就像我們越南來探親只有直親就是父母才可以來探親其他兄弟姐妹都不能來探親還有來探親只有三個月最多三個月只有說我們是因為有生孩子在延長就是六個月所以"},{"start":9781.353,"end":9789.377,"text":"這樣子的探親的部分是不是可以部長這邊讓我們的簽證可以去延長就像我們從越南嫁到美國美國給我們的是一本給父母一本簽證兩年隨時都可以飛來飛去所以我們為了要減少經濟的壓力我們新住民的家庭"},{"start":9806.684,"end":9834.2,"text":"讓他們的父母來探親是不是要給他們一本簽證不要說限制三個月你限制三個月變成大家來探親的人就變減少又會導致大家就是會滴流這樣子還有就是美國只要你們嫁到美國還有就是依親的簽證因為我們臺灣也是很注重孝順不管你去哪裡都要孝順"},{"start":9835.14,"end":9850.403,"text":"是不是這樣子所以我們希望說未來是不是說我們部長這邊可以發放就是讓我們的父母可以來台灣就是簽證延長就是說免簽證是最好了但是說我們簽證可以去延長這個部分因為我們都知道說百善孝為先不管你去任何國家在台灣一樣也是都要養父母"},{"start":9869.559,"end":9886.81,"text":"大方向台灣要跟這個包括新南向國家的交流尤其是這個以人為本這個是一定是會逐漸的在出入境還有拘留甚至移民上"},{"start":9888.171,"end":9911.325,"text":"在確保我們安全因為也有一些拖把的事故但是在這種情況之下他來這邊不管是留學工作移民甚至他整個家庭來依親我想台灣是一個應該是在這個方面是要走向跟新南向國家更多的交流"},{"start":9912.199,"end":9913.72,"text":"接下來請賴氏寶委員上台諮詢"},{"start":9954.573,"end":9957.24,"text":"謝謝主席及各位部長尤其林部長已經在那裡"},{"start":9961.499,"end":9986.608,"text":"你是接了新職宣誓就任後第一次來嗎?對,第一次來這裡人是不錯的林佳龍就外面黨外或者在野黨對你不會討厭不會討厭但我們希望你講真話因為我就知道你希望講真話而且你也勇於擔當出事情的交通部長"},{"start":9988.41,"end":9989.733,"text":"林佳龍報告業務概況．"},{"start":10001.038,"end":10017.662,"text":"不是搜尋喔我聽得懂你講的不是搜尋嘛有更適合的人才的話我們當然這個可以嘛不是說話又說又倒過來講嘛你比較想那個位置去用講去所以之後無奈的結果有就好這樣說對不對不對"},{"start":10022.074,"end":10048.449,"text":"這樣說就是這樣,不是你首選啦不是你的首選啦有人要擔比較重的擔子齁,我們應該給他加油對嘛,你這講出來選外之音嘛你應該想去現在卓榮泰的位置嘛卓榮泰什麼位置,行政院長對不對,我也覺得你來做比較好勒你的精力比他多很多勒卓榮泰做院長,你不做院長,我替你報不平勒"},{"start":10050.606,"end":10051.026,"text":"總統和院長認為我來這裡可以為國家貢獻"},{"start":10072.051,"end":10095.384,"text":"昨天他就做院長,他變了一個長官,很奇怪,你的經歷,他都沒有首長的經歷,你都有,他做立委,你也做過立委,比一比嘛,我們英文流行,你都很清楚嘛,我們叫track record,過去的經歷,對不對,你經歷這麼漂亮,做過台中市長,部會首長,做過立委,"},{"start":10096.857,"end":10115.229,"text":"外交對台灣最重要了啦台灣現在是外交最重要外交很辛苦來家來家做不成績啦來家做不成績啦有一種支持齁我一定會更有成績外交什麼成績你現在能不能講說第一個以後任內你當部長任內絕對不會有一條再斷條你這樣講"},{"start":10120.404,"end":10142.395,"text":"我們全力以赴,顧好邦交,而且要繁榮我們的邦交國啊,讓他跟我們的關係更親密,不能夠...你再可以拿出來,官位拿出來,有什麼拿出來,我林佳龍你只要講到這樣,我死命感一剎那,靠去屁股,現金還要賺下去,一年內如果斷交一國,下台,敢這樣講,敢這樣講"},{"start":10146.618,"end":10153.845,"text":"我們要先看比較正向來思考我們的外交工作外交部長沒有外交國你什麼叫外交你認同說臺灣如果邦交國變零沒關係你認同嗎我是全力以赴一定要不只固邦而且要要要龍邦"},{"start":10169.301,"end":10186.513,"text":"就是繁榮我們的,跟我們有交往的國家,特別是我們的邦交國,不是是孤狼,不是叫我們紅狗而已啦,要記得齁,真的是把他的國家的發展,我們台灣can help,好好地去做。我前陣子跟你說,我也是台中人,你做個台中市長,所以給你加一分,你知道嗎?結果你這樣,氣泡都不拿出來,氣泡拿出來,氣泡氣泡,不是農幫,加幫才對啊,我要加一個邦交國,幹嗎?"},{"start":10199.261,"end":10209.509,"text":"我們一起來努力阿有啦現在很多世界的國家都知道說齁其實像宏都拉斯阿大家都知道阿他現在的白蝦就賣不出去啦"},{"start":10214.328,"end":10220.849,"text":"所以我們不是說大家...你還叫我來賣我台灣,我給你贈獎要發起感恩喔,高昂還會孤單啦,我們要彭理信去替這些國家講,我們怎麼發展啊後面你都沒好勒,敢不敢承諾斷交就要下台,你也不敢承諾,這樣變成無頭血體喔,斷交五六七八個都沒關係又不下台"},{"start":10238.591,"end":10264.158,"text":"請問您我們用做的真的不是用說的啦真的台灣的外交很艱辛喔外交做好才不會被斷交啊對不對老公打壓不是今天打好讓我再問你現在最危險的邦交國現在大家講叫停很危險啦守得住嗎叫停叫停叫停梵蒂岡對梵蒂岡守得住嗎他很危險你說他沒有很危險啊沒有很危險"},{"start":10267.558,"end":10269.8,"text":"當然我們要密切的關注如果紅黃綠它應該屬於什麼燈"},{"start":10294.943,"end":10311.532,"text":"我是認為只要我們努力大家都會覺得跟臺灣交往真的是彼此好互惠我剛才跟你亂講就是希望你講真話你都不敢講真話最後另外一個問你一個很重要的消息這一定要認真講我講實話川普說老共要打臺灣他要轟炸北京這句話你聽得怎麼樣你的感覺"},{"start":10322.123,"end":10322.964,"text":"他現在跟拜登兩個在飆車打台灣牌飆車"},{"start":10350.609,"end":10361.322,"text":"拜登說只要打要出兵保衛台灣然後川普覺得這樣不好他要吃馬你打台灣我就轟炸北京嚇嚇叫"},{"start":10362.984,"end":10366.207,"text":"他們要保衛台灣這裡我們要感謝因為台海的和平與穩定涉及到是全世界的利害關係台灣就被打啦台灣用這個來刺激台灣台灣怎麼打都是輸家啦這個你同意嗎"},{"start":10393.032,"end":10417.06,"text":"我們台灣就是真的我們是一個跟理念相近國家我們基本上讓大家覺得我們不是在改變現狀是對岸在改變現狀因此世界都要一起來面對這個問題你講這話都像保留一樣都抓不到都沒有給我都沒有回答到好啦那就最後一個你就是要讓我得到我要答案我就下去好不好你感覺川普講這個話是選舉語言嗎"},{"start":10423.283,"end":10443.309,"text":"我覺得也不能這樣子就替他來斷言我們還是要持續關注這個發展拜登說要保衛台灣出兵因為從阿烏灣從越南之後他從來沒有在台灣海外出兵烏克蘭都沒有他會出兵台灣嗎這個看起來就是選舉語言嘛對不對那你給我一個答案嘛你是more than happy聽到還是happy聽到還是no comment"},{"start":10454.005,"end":10477.516,"text":"他們現在就是認為其實比較是像是說因為中共在改變現狀他們希望跟台灣一樣能夠維護現狀在這一點上面我們是立場一致可是至於說大國之間的不管是這一個涉及到的動不動兵的問題我們尤其在選舉我想台灣的我們是密切關注但我們也不去介入他們認真不認但是值得關注喔"},{"start":10482.588,"end":10482.608,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":10514.136,"end":10516.597,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢。謝謝主席,部長好。我想請教一下部長,您接任部長的時候,跟前一任的部長吳釗燮有辦交接嗎?"},{"start":10540.199,"end":10561.39,"text":"因為我覺得昨天很奇怪我在問公共工程委員會主委陳金德的時候他說他跟前一任主委完全沒有交接所以導致我昨天問他的問題讓我很驚訝就是格言彼此之間沒有交接我昨天真的聽了嚇一大跳但這件事情沒有發生在外交部非常的好那第二個部長"},{"start":10562.651,"end":10586.659,"text":"您剛剛提到了說我們不僅重點不是說要不要增加邦交國而你提到一個概念說我們要榮邦就是讓我們的邦交國能夠過得更好更興盛這是你剛剛所講的嘛對 繁榮好 那你知不知道我們大概每一年我們的政府開發援助大概每一年花多少錢"},{"start":10588.628,"end":10617.255,"text":"當然我們的這個GNI的數字是還沒有符合國際的標準大概多少錢?就是0.06%所以大概多少錢?4.38億啊4.38億單位是什麼?美元對嘛那就大概就上百億的台幣嘛在這個上百億的台幣當中在我們目前的邦交國在拉美加勒比海"},{"start":10618.536,"end":10630.783,"text":"總共有幾個國家拉美加加勒比海大概7個國家7個國家我就以100億來算好了這7個國家大概佔這100億的百分之多少那不是這樣算因為人口跟那個對啦我說你這100億嘛大概有多少給這7個國家是50億70億60億你知道嗎我們"},{"start":10647.788,"end":10652.151,"text":"關心的議題也很重要因為今天我看到外交部的業務報告的時候老師說我有點驚訝因為我們現在僅存的12個邦交國有7個"},{"start":10676.311,"end":10695.824,"text":"在拉美跟加勒比海但是您知道您的業務報告提到這些國家有幾句話嗎?您知道嗎?我們八點第一點就是提要這個顧邦到榮邦啊對啊我跟委員也說明一下因為所謂國際援助不是只限於邦交國我們國際合作很多項目都在進行中沒有關係啊"},{"start":10697.202,"end":10712.851,"text":"我是支持公開透明有哪些到邦交國有哪些非邦交國多少錢做什麼事情清清楚楚的向國人報告為什麼我要從這個角度去切入來請部長看一下我會花一點點時間帶你進入狀況"},{"start":10716.516,"end":10742.696,"text":"NCCRP是一個非常有名的國際反貪腐組織我2020年離開立法院了以後我成立了一個公益階級缺道者保護者協會開始跟這個國際反貪腐組織合作那那個時候我們開始調查的其中的一個project是中美洲銀行卡貝發現卡貝內部非常的腐敗把其他國家的善意"},{"start":10744.131,"end":10772.641,"text":"給他們的錢提供了援助去資助拉丁美洲那邊的獨裁政權甚至暗殺環保人士侵犯人權賄賂貪污錢全部都是從這個地方來的那這件事情為什麼值得關注啊因為來我們來看一下我們的盟友我們民主同盟最重要的朋友美國"},{"start":10774.784,"end":10801.602,"text":"2023年去年2月的時候CSIS對於卡貝提出嚴厲的批判竟然拿錢去打壓異議人士侵害人權那個時候對台灣也提出了一些呼籲呼籲說台灣不要傻傻的錢一直給卡貝用到哪裡去是不是拿去侵害人權是不是資助獨裁政府"},{"start":10803.001,"end":10824.804,"text":"他們希望台灣要建立一個非常清楚的監理機制來部長您看一下卡貝的創始會員國區域內的創始會員國區域外的會員國裡面有6個國家在蔡政府實習的時候斷交了那當然這中國扮演很重要的因素扮演很重要的因素那只不過說"},{"start":10826.409,"end":10848.857,"text":"我覺得台灣一方面在援助他們但是在援助他們的時候他們裡面人權的狀況非常的差拿了那些錢去打壓他們自己國內的異議人士連美國都看不下去啦所以CSIS才會對台灣提出這樣子的建議嘛那我們跟OCCPR"},{"start":10850.788,"end":10876.393,"text":"所一起合作的調查報告在去年綜藝文版同時出來了以後台灣的立法院上一屆立法院也開始在關注這一件事情因為我們給卡貝真的太多錢了我們現在是卡貝單一會員國持股最高的我們是第一大股東喔美積現在已經給他兩億七千六百萬美元了好"},{"start":10877.834,"end":10884.051,"text":"因此上一屆的國會包括陳佳華委員包括邱承遠委員都要求"},{"start":10885.069,"end":10914.329,"text":"給卡貝的錢去哪裡花到哪裡要公開透明吳釗燮部長李淳市長都說這個要求非常的合理我們一定要來做而且我們要發揮我們在卡貝裡面的影響力不可以讓卡貝再拿錢去資助獨裁政體打壓人權這個價值非常重要特別台灣現在又希望用民主同盟跟相同價值的國家做朋友"},{"start":10915.269,"end":10939.775,"text":"那我在部長卸任前最後一次質詢我請教部長說那去年答應的公開透明說原著的計畫要在網站上面去公開然後結果我現在拿到的回應是說研議具體做法那請問為什麼研議這麼久這個事情部長有跟您交接嗎"},{"start":10942.008,"end":10942.808,"text":"部長你覺得他們應該多久之內做出來?"},{"start":10971.274,"end":10999.782,"text":"他們只是說對這個草對吧我現在要跟部長報告的事情是因為雙方在檢視裡面的數字喔可能要再確認一下應該不是喔這個數字會有什麼問題我們給卡貝多少錢收到多少錢拿去給多少國家這個數字還要double check喔我們一起來催促啦能夠盡快讓他不是喔我催促很久啦去年上一屆國會就有立委提出要求了嘛上一屆的部長也承諾了嘛到今年喔"},{"start":11001.543,"end":11026.337,"text":"現在已經五月底了嘛然後卡貝是什麼?把台灣當作西韓欸我們是他第一大持股會員國在台灣資本市場卡貝木的資金是全球最高欸援助的金額給他也是最高但他怎麼對我們的來我給部長看一下我就上你們外交部的同仁給我所謂那個台灣專區的連結我一連結上去"},{"start":11028.871,"end":11054.625,"text":"有跟沒有一樣上面的項目全部都空白那不對啊我們明明給了這麼多錢阿為什麼項目會是空白我再給部長看一下卡貝跟南韓人家就做起來啦南韓比我們加入卡貝晚欸出的錢比我們少欸原住的金額比我們少欸卡貝跟南韓做的起來跟台灣做不起來部長你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":11056.445,"end":11085.161,"text":"我們來努力盡快因為他已經答應了那這個草案也有雙方再確認一下那近期之內啦我們外交部的同仁跟卡貝那邊因為事實上我們自己也有派理事或董事常駐在卡貝嘛這個我想部長你應該有掌握嘛對我們都有理事或董事常駐在卡貝的要求他們做這件事情台灣作為第一大持股會員國原住的金額最高有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":11087.079,"end":11114.838,"text":"我希望卡貝不是把台灣當提款機只認為我們是裡面重要的會員國如果是重要的會員國那我的問題就來了南韓為什麼可以台灣就在這邊推脫拉這很重要是不是請部長拜託同仁跟卡貝最後聯繫的結果他們回覆的內容是不是會後可以說明需要多久"},{"start":11115.745,"end":11117.226,"text":"接下來請洪森和委員上台質詢"},{"start":11147.674,"end":11174.856,"text":"好 那個 林部長您站在台上了部長 這當然你第一次到外交國防委員會來備詢那我先開始先有幾個問題先問你我看到前面有幾位委員有談到民主基金會的問題那第一個我想先問部長民主基金會是不是台灣非常非常重要的外交資源是"},{"start":11177.134,"end":11184.202,"text":"第二問題是臺灣整體我們的外交政策那最高的負責人是誰?"},{"start":11185.427,"end":11187.108,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬"},{"start":11210.987,"end":11211.007,"text":"會議結束"},{"start":11225.961,"end":11247.334,"text":"這個 我想這個剛剛在講的中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個概念其實我想也不只是賴總統說我們這幾天其實看到大大小小的民調這句話拿去做民調基本上在台灣的民意支持度都是超過六成甚至有部分民調我們看到超過七成所以這代表這其實也是有民意基礎的一句話民意基礎的一個立場"},{"start":11248.735,"end":11275.685,"text":"那我今天我們在談到民主基金會的問題的時候其實我並不想要談論任何個別的人選的問題但我只想說一件事情民主基金會如果是我們外交非常非常關鍵的資源的話那民主基金會的運作民主基金會經營的方向要不要符合剛剛說的四個堅持裡面中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念該不該"},{"start":11277.547,"end":11292.742,"text":"應該啊所以部長今天接下來當然明武基金會的執行長他要怎麼產生那不管誰推薦誰提名誰指定尊重誰我覺得這是一回事大家都可以推薦"},{"start":11294.108,"end":11316.405,"text":"韓院長可以推薦或其他的院長也都可以推薦王金平院長也可以推薦誰都可以推薦有各方的我覺得這都很好大家推薦各種人才來但我覺得一個很重要的事情是這一個民主基金會的掌舵者執行長他要是能夠認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個立場的我覺得這是關鍵"},{"start":11319.127,"end":11337.756,"text":"如果他無法認同這個立場或他無法執行這個立場那就會產生在我們整體的外交政策裡面出現很大的憾惡甚至對我們的外交的成效成果很有可能會產生影響那請問最後要負責的是誰"},{"start":11341.042,"end":11361.506,"text":"總統是國家元首對外代表國家那外交權當然是總統所以我要再強調一次民主基金會的人事任命的問題不是一個黨派的問題這是一個責任政治的問題這是一個責任政治的問題因為如果我們的外交沒有搞好我們的外交資源之間彼此漢格跟衝突大眾會找誰救責"},{"start":11366.07,"end":11390.186,"text":"會找外交部長啊會找總統啊這是為什麼大家一直說這個執行長的人選需要尊重總統的原因因為總統負責不是因為他是哪一個黨派的問題所以部長我今天不談個別人選我對個別人選沒有意見任何人推薦的人選都可以盡量來推薦但我認為這個執行長的人選他應該要認同"},{"start":11397.421,"end":11426.772,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個清清楚楚而且帶有民意基礎的立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題所以我今天不談個別人選誰推薦的我都不介意但是我們認為他要能夠滿足這個立場他要能夠執行這個立場不該有衝突很簡單就民主基金會的問題我們就講到這個地方那接下來部長我現在要跟你談下面一個事情其實近期國際上面有很多"},{"start":11429.096,"end":11436.924,"text":"近期國際上有很多的討論都在討論一個是關於中共的跨境鎮壓部長你有沒有聽過這四個字有"},{"start":11438.929,"end":11460.985,"text":"這四個字跨境鎮壓其實中共的做法其實是很多元的包括可能將台灣人的出生地改成中國或者是我們也看過過去其實他們也曾經派人對我們的駐外人員動粗騷擾毆打台灣的留學生都有我們當然也發現比方在今年3月的時候當時還是駐美代表的蕭美琴這個副總統"},{"start":11461.806,"end":11484.077,"text":"他去到捷克的時候在布拉格機場裡面被中國的外交人員尾隨甚至會發生一些其實大家不願意看到的意外的可能也包括2000年的時候我們看到我們當時駐斐基的代表其實就有兩位中國外交人員闖入會場甚至毆打我們的外交人員今年4月的時候我們也看到台灣的留學生"},{"start":11486.271,"end":11487.631,"text":"部長現在各國都在討論中國的跨境鎮壓的問題我們外交部有沒有準備?"},{"start":11506.405,"end":11520.665,"text":"是有當然我們除了保護我們國人在國外的這個安全跟他的人權以外那對應我想中共想要透過一種常備"},{"start":11521.886,"end":11525.209,"text":"部長我們參考一下現在接下來看那個美國他們其實有提的類似像是一個跨境鎮壓的法案這裡面其實很明確要求"},{"start":11549.619,"end":11570.867,"text":"美國國務院應該要在每年提在人權報告中詳述跨境鎮壓相關的事件樣態而且外交部門也要提出應對跨境鎮壓的戰略也要編列預算培訓外交人員來面對跨境鎮壓的辨識跟理解甚至需要設立跨境鎮壓的通報的專線依照這些通報的專線來擬定未來制裁的名單這不是只有美國再往下"},{"start":11573.012,"end":11595.698,"text":"我們在歐洲的理事會2023年的6月其實他有一份文件談到歐洲理事會對跨境鎮壓反制的措施包括第一個要建立跨境鎮壓的定義和制定防制的指導方針再來是根據歐洲人權法院的判例來制定跨境鎮壓防制的建議那要讓這些行為人受到法律的制裁讓受害人得到賠償"},{"start":11597.62,"end":11612.197,"text":"還有包括Freedom House等等等國際的重要的NGO其實最近都在談論快進增壓這個主題部長 剛剛我如果剛才聽你講的話我覺得好像我們現在外交部針對相關快進增壓議題的因應好像還太抽象了"},{"start":11613.251,"end":11619.435,"text":"部長,臺灣絕對是中國要施以跨境這壓最核心的對象,絕對是最核心的打壓的對象,相比於現在西方國家,美國,歐盟,或者是其他的國家,包括現在NGO都不斷提出報告,"},{"start":11643.391,"end":11671.862,"text":"我為什麼這麼關心這個問題因為我們自己就有相關的國人僑民等等可能會遇到類似的問題而且可能是他們重點在打擊的對象重點在鎮壓騷擾監控的對象所以部長我覺得要請你跟包括我們的國安局國安單位甚至僑委會大家要一起針對跨境鎮壓的問題提出一個明確的應對的策略的方案部長這有沒有"},{"start":11673.081,"end":11701.202,"text":"應該沒有問題吧我們來推動好不好那我覺得我們可以來參考現在在國際上面包括這些專業的人權NGO包括幾個這個美國歐盟他們目前其實已經出來的相關的文件的做法但照理來說這件事情我做這件事情的防範我們不應該在這些國家之後我們照理來說應該比這些國家更敏感因為我們是優先被打擊的對象啊所以部長是多久的時間我們可以把這件事情有一個大致的草案出來部長"},{"start":11703.624,"end":11715.476,"text":"這涉及到當然也包括跨部會我們來跟國安會反映我們外交部的部分也會先展開研究三個月可不可以"},{"start":11716.397,"end":11717.077,"text":"好,可以。"},{"start":11749.325,"end":11751.467,"text":"謝謝 接下來請林德輔委員上台質詢謝謝主席 是不是請林部長部長 我請教 因為"},{"start":11774.807,"end":11796.892,"text":"那個CPTPP這個我們洽簽的進度當初是英國跟台灣都在2021年來提出陸會的申請那英國已經在2023年成功的加入CPTPP反觀我們遲遲沒有辦法加入因為CPTPP"},{"start":11798.537,"end":11824.347,"text":"這個成員國一共有12個那比如說日本、加拿大、英國、澳洲、紐西蘭等許多民眾覺得政府推動加入CPTPP這個具體的成果不明顯那請問外交部你回答本席CPTPP的成員國態度上支持我方的數量到底有多少"},{"start":11827.011,"end":11851.441,"text":"應該有公開表示支持應該有差不多有將近一半有一半那因為同時我們跟英國進去那為什麼說我們到現在為止只有停留在還是這個當初想進去結果恰見的進入幾乎都等於是有跟沒有一樣"},{"start":11852.731,"end":11867.984,"text":"那個部長你有什麼看法因為他基本上採取共識決嘛那當然有一些國家或者是想要申請的國家當然也會影響我們加入的一個情況那照你講這樣就是遙遙無期就對了"},{"start":11870.404,"end":11886.682,"text":"我們就是全力以赴在努力中因為輪值主席國也是一個重點因為他的態度像今年加拿大就比較積極我希望能夠有成果不要只有停留在"},{"start":11888.421,"end":11906.116,"text":"講講而已,然後敷衍敷衍,那個部長不會啦,我如果可以參加我們馬上就要參加當然啦,那問題是阿問其他也知道有些不一定是純粹貿易的因素嘛尤其前部長講話都是親在回回公共的啦"},{"start":11908.017,"end":11930.368,"text":"20162016年美國總統大選當時蔡英文總統托人贈送三隻小豬的畫像給民主黨希拉蕾祝福她當選沒想到共和黨的川普獲勝那2020年民進黨人士昏昏高喊我川威武卻沒有想到是由民主黨拜登來獲勝"},{"start":11932.73,"end":11942.236,"text":"現在2024年外界預測今年7月美國共和黨將提名川普成為總統的候選人再次與拜登來對決"},{"start":11944.042,"end":11967.976,"text":"阿本席是希望說外交部阿對美的工作與美國的民主共和兩黨要保持等距阿的一個交往互動保持中立阿那個部長你有什麼看法阿對我們都是跟阿不管兩黨我們都是同時發展很好的關係啦就是都要做啦問題是你過去就壓一邊阿結果另外一邊當選阿這樣不是很尷尬嗎對不對部長"},{"start":11971.409,"end":11998.072,"text":"現在兩邊都來我希望你們維持中立啦因為其實像最近不管是跨黨派或是涉及行政立法單位其實對台灣的支持都是一致的啦部長包括撥款法案其實一個國家領導人像我們跟日本跟美國甚至於跟對岸我們要在三角的中間啦你跟我好我就拉近一點跟我不好我就疏離一些對不對這才是上上之策啦但是我們都壓一邊"},{"start":11999.394,"end":11999.694,"text":"為了整個我們國家的利益"},{"start":12024.277,"end":12049.936,"text":"我們希望說一個國家領導人要有智慧那個部長現行國家機密保護法卸任總統或副總統儘管最長可達6年那馬英九前總統2016年卸任當時向當時的蔡英文政府申請出境並在當年11月美國總統大選結束後沒有多久就出訪美國進行演講"},{"start":12050.757,"end":12052.658,"text":"目前還沒有收到相關的需要外交部協助的"},{"start":12074.517,"end":12093.331,"text":"本席相信外交部絕大多數的同仁都奉公守法此次外交部派駐到聖路西亞替代役易蘭涉嫌架設販毒網站遭美國逮捕讓外界大感意外"},{"start":12094.712,"end":12120.649,"text":"據瞭解該替代藝男接受內政部替代藝男訓練時有驗過尿並沒有出現毒品的反應那請問部長涉及國家機密的外交部同仁不管在國內或外派他國若沾染毒品是否有可能成為國安的破口遭他人來掌控會不會"},{"start":12122.13,"end":12142.561,"text":"是他是販毒啦他應該跟那個他是不是續讀或者是不太一樣但是當然我們內政部或議政司或相當跨部會在審查這些的一個這個例子是要拿回來做我們檢討尤其外交替代役的部分"},{"start":12142.921,"end":12169.083,"text":"你外交部內部到底有沒有查核的機制有沒有查核的機制因為這個是內政部他的審查之後因為兵役嘛外派到外面你們當然有責任啊不是他派去就是對阿所以如果涉及違法的行為我們一定要嚴辦我是希望說你們內部要有一個控管查核的機制不是說你派來我就用你用你結果最後出事"},{"start":12169.884,"end":12170.084,"text":"是是謝謝"},{"start":12200.464,"end":12210.428,"text":"謝謝 接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請請鄭天才鄭天才鄭天才委員不在請邱志偉委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請外交部林部長"},{"start":12224.126,"end":12251.04,"text":"謝謝部長 委員好林教授是我很敬佩的學者他寫篇文章是針對中國的外交政策的轉向他說這個戰狼有消退的現象從這個今年以來他的整體的對外的作為作法然後會重新修正到因為他第三個任期習近平第三個任期已經開始了會修正到江澤民或者是"},{"start":12252.722,"end":12263.389,"text":"胡錦濤時代的這個所謂大國外交或是有這個名字叫魅力外交您的觀察中國的外交政策是不是有轉向或是有調整"},{"start":12265.579,"end":12286.193,"text":"我沒有看到他什麼轉向只是說跟國際的衝突越來越大這個是對台灣的打壓也越來越大那當然他們對台灣打壓從來沒有手軟過我是說除了對台灣之外對其他的比方說對美的關係對歐洲的關係對其他這個邦交國的關係是不是也比過去"},{"start":12288.008,"end":12291.29,"text":"這明顯我的觀察不見得是正確"},{"start":12312.521,"end":12331.008,"text":"美中跟歐盟是這個戰略三角的關係對不對那美中當然是零和基本上是在國家利益上面是零和鬥爭嘛特別不管是拜登或者是川普那這種狀況之下他必須要取得歐盟的支持"},{"start":12333.084,"end":12351.671,"text":"所以從戰略三角理論來看他這樣子改善對歐盟的關係我覺得是合理的他的外交策略一向就會有這樣子習近平他去匈牙利去法國對不對還有去另外一個國家"},{"start":12353.156,"end":12353.176,"text":"塞爾維亞"},{"start":12369.028,"end":12369.668,"text":"多久沒有建立新的邦交國?"},{"start":12397.895,"end":12404.281,"text":"實質關係可以多面向從文化體育科技實質關係可以促進你要有個這個比較創新或新的事為就是邦交國plus計劃"},{"start":12417.697,"end":12418.458,"text":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況．並備質詢。．"},{"start":12446.894,"end":12447.254,"text":"主席"},{"start":12465.808,"end":12490.289,"text":"是基於這個平等互惠的發展他們常常給我們這個給我們很多的這個國際上的壓力這個文攻武嚇或者外交上的壓力我們自己也要有相當相當的這個警覺意識那我說的新的思維就是邦交國PLUS希望你可以參考一下你心裡面也有譜但是這個逐步去推動那希望我們有新的邦交國能夠產生"},{"start":12493.431,"end":12515.286,"text":"另外去年我跟總統去史瓦帝尼總統出訪的時候總統有提到非洲計畫2.0但是從你的外交部業務報告之至我也提非洲這計畫2.0我在非洲有設服務處"},{"start":12518.82,"end":12534.698,"text":"雖然你們對索馬利蘭﹑奈及利亞﹑東非﹑南非﹑西非都有,北非你們想辦法去,非洲計畫2.0有沒有時間表可以什麼時候提出來?"},{"start":12535.399,"end":12563.719,"text":"因為蔡總統已經有說過希望盡快提出這個非洲計畫2.0目前的進度呢其實像下海海岸就是一個例子嘛他們也是重新去審視跟我們的關係雖然不是說建交的關係但是是可以就是說一起共同發展那以這個斯瓦帝尼來講那這次死亡又來台灣那大家對於長期的合作希望建立非南地區一個發展的一個典範"},{"start":12564.52,"end":12590.178,"text":"所以我們都會重新聚焦那這個時候呢大家就看到成果有沒有這個計劃有沒有計劃2.0有沒有這個東西有我這個期待啦有更多新的思維從經貿從各種層面不是傳統外交而已因為愛沙尼亞這個波海山谷就是愛沙尼亞有沒有射出那愛沙尼亞到底有沒有射出的可能性或有沒有這個計劃都有在談有在談有進度"},{"start":12592.224,"end":12617.862,"text":"大方向是希望能夠有更正式的關係但是因為這也涉及到國際政治很複雜三個國家都有不同的國情但是他們友好、友台的程度是差不多的從國會的互動愛沙尼亞他們也有友台的角度所以是不是加強力道一下促成愛沙尼亞能夠雙邊社畜"},{"start":12619.949,"end":12635.601,"text":"CBTP當然是這幾年是很關鍵當然對輪值主席國我們要有相關的這個更加強的作為但是CBTP這個所有成員國裡面我們都有住宿對基本上都有住宿要加強經貿人員是"},{"start":12638.15,"end":12654.358,"text":"這樣基本你要設定工作目標工作期程你要隨時去管考到底針對這些成員國你這些住宿到底你要做設立哪些目標達成哪些具體成果這個部長你要去執行管考因為他前線的作為很重要"},{"start":12654.838,"end":12654.998,"text":"主席"},{"start":12685.078,"end":12687.039,"text":"有請部長我想請教一下部長總統出訪邦交國重不重要重要"},{"start":12706.294,"end":12719.924,"text":"那總統我們總統過去會有時候藉由出訪邦交國來過境美國嘛那重不重要重要那重要原因是什麼為什麼總統出訪邦交國要去過境美國呢"},{"start":12721.089,"end":12741.878,"text":"因為現實上就沒有直航嘛沒有辦法直飛一定要藉由轉機那美國對我們轉機也是相當的重視跟禮遇對實際上我們也可以在這個總統來去訪問美國過境美國的這個過程當中也可以做很多的外交的一些成果的一些我們的展示嘛對不對維繫跟美國的良好溝通嘛對不對對好非常謝謝部長"},{"start":12746.94,"end":12765.182,"text":"所以因此我覺得像陳水扁我們的前總統他在卸任的時候然後他是在卸任的那一年的1月2008年你知道他訪問友邦然後有過境美國你知道過境美國哪裡嗎去回"},{"start":12768.306,"end":12782.58,"text":"我告訴你啦安克拉茲啦那時尚陳水扁過境美國也是要來展現說他卸任的時候那我們跟臺美的關係啊然後以及我們的外交成果他也是要做一個相當的一個成果展示嘛對不對當時的情況是啦這你不用擔心啦"},{"start":12790.046,"end":12805.379,"text":"然後第二個就是說馬英九前總統他在卸任前他是在2016年3月訪問瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯而且還去中美洲議會演講那去回他也過境美國過境美國哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":12807.076,"end":12823.239,"text":"我告訴你還好休斯頓跟洛杉磯那他也對他的八年的外交政績做了總結因為實際上我們的外交關係美國是非常重要的對不對美國的萌移是我們非常重要的一部分所以這是為什麼要有所謂的"},{"start":12823.439,"end":12827.523,"text":"陳水扁和馬英九在卸任前一年都曾經過境美國,請問蔡英文總統卸任前一年有沒有過境美國?"},{"start":12841.758,"end":12857.166,"text":"今年是沒有,卸任的前一年,前一年當然是有,我告訴你沒有了,卸任的一年內,馬英九總統是在2016年3月,蔡英文總統實質上最後一次出訪過境美國是去年的3月,"},{"start":12869.172,"end":12872.773,"text":"陳水扁前總統卸任當年的1月馬英九前總統卸任當年的3月都出訪美國蔡英文總統我記得她已經多次來談說台美關係實際上是她任內達到最高峰那我想請問為什麼沒有過境的安排"},{"start":12896.601,"end":12922.433,"text":"不然這個是蔡總統的決定嘛對可是剛剛你也講過境外交其實是有意義的因為我也是從總統府這個曾經工作出來的嘛然後擔任副秘書長那時候其實總統出訪業務也是我的業務項目啦所以為什麼我那麼關心這件事因為我看歷屆總統這個不管池水扁馬英九都會藉由所謂過境美國來尤其在卸任的時候為自己的外交做總結"},{"start":12923.433,"end":12946.713,"text":"那我是個人是覺得很可惜為什麼蔡英文總統這麼重視台美關係這麼強調台美關係順暢無礙可她卸任前的這一年之內她沒有做沒有出訪然後過境美國呢因為台美關係都相當穩定然後我們邦交國的關係他有這個到瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯嘛那剛去嘛"},{"start":12948.072,"end":12962.699,"text":"那如果說這要過境的這個路線啊就沒有嘛所以我要這樣講沒關係啦我跟你講放一半因為蔡總統已經卸任了那蔡總統也是這三任總統唯一在卸任的一年內卸任前的一年內沒有過境美國"},{"start":12963.699,"end":12988.298,"text":"這一點我覺得當然會讓我們覺得是不是臺美關係之間我們是不是少了一個重要的一個展現的一個機會那當然原因是蔡英文總統不想去還是美國不讓她去還是什麼樣有什麼壓力我不知道那可能是你們外交部要去來去對外面來說明當然過去就過去了那我就要想請教一下那戴慶德總統他新當選總有過境美國的計畫吧"},{"start":12993.969,"end":13009.537,"text":"我們外交部每一年都會有規劃元首出訪那現在正在評估中評估中啊那我想請教一下你來聽聽看陳水扁總統2000年上任的時候他是在幾月過境美國"},{"start":13012.213,"end":13013.933,"text":"我想請教一下我們部長"},{"start":13041.661,"end":13069.686,"text":"那我們的賴清哲總統他的這個出訪計畫跟過境美國計畫已經在安排當中了嗎現在在呃在總統6月哦如果你要能夠這個早一點的話可能時間也蠻趕的如果是6月的話對不對8月大概還有點作業時間啦對不對還有點作業時間但是我真的要問部長一件事情你知道陳水扁我們過境外交過境外交前提是什麼部長"},{"start":13072.222,"end":13094.974,"text":"過境外交的前提 要有訪問點才有過境點你知道我們陳水扁他2000年首次過境外交出訪的波明尼加 尼加阿瓜 哥斯大尼加 查德跟甘比亞 布吉納法索請問這些邦交國現在在哪裡 還是邦交國嗎 全部都不是"},{"start":13095.974,"end":13108.824,"text":"所以我要跟大家講說實際上我希望我們的部長也提醒一下因為你要安排過境外交第一個是要先安排出訪國家但我們出訪國家坦白講選項比以前多還比以前少"},{"start":13110.919,"end":13111.299,"text":"邀請外交部長林佳龍報告業務概況．"},{"start":13140.977,"end":13167.722,"text":"我們的吳部長是邦交國大減計畫腰斬計畫他很成功22國掉到剩12國他腰斬計畫很成功部長多一個就好邦交國PLUS計畫有沒有信心我們來從故邦到榮邦大家一起來努力我們當然有個目標希望能夠增加你還是要像邱志偉委員這麼樣的一個主張要能夠有雄心壯志至少不要腰斬好不好可以嗎"},{"start":13169.591,"end":13170.592,"text":"接下來請鍾瑞雄委員 請洪孟楷委員上台質詢"},{"start":13189.144,"end":13206.555,"text":"部長已經先就位了,也是我們老朋友啦,我們之前在交通委員會跟交通部林佳龍部長有很多的討論,不過部長我們先回顧一下當時102卷第一期的這個公聽會,你有印象嗎?"},{"start":13207.645,"end":13231.586,"text":"有 有嗎 因為您在那邊有發言其實我想國會改革紛紛擾擾有在野時候有執政時候大家都有主張但特別我想請林佳龍部長也是之前林佳龍委員來看一下他當時怎麼說林佳龍委員這是您的逐字稿我就先標題讓你知道這是您所說的話來 下一頁"},{"start":13234.144,"end":13250.858,"text":"您當時認為最重要是立委對政府官員的質詢如果說官員只在那10分鐘當個木頭人被罵幾句事後什麼事情都沒有發生這個質詢沒有法律上的約束而如果官員說謊更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證"},{"start":13252.279,"end":13279.727,"text":"此或是虛偽證據負起刑法上政治上的責任所以執政執行權很重要所以當時你主張官員在國會如果說法說謊要有形式上跟政治上的責任到目前為止你還是一樣主張嗎對執行權就是要強化那他當然必須要能夠有他的效力是所以當時你的主張到現在"},{"start":13281.306,"end":13303.94,"text":"國民黨跟民眾黨我們通過的修正再修正動議25條幫您達成了官員只限官員如果來立法院說謊或是陳述不實的話會有形式上跟政治上的責任來我們再看下一個您當時也有提到說不只政府官員人民社團法人也要善盡公民的義務及責任"},{"start":13305.541,"end":13315.537,"text":"所以如果人民社團法人為他的不實證詞或拒絕來就應該要科與罰則至少要科10萬元以下的罰款"},{"start":13316.872,"end":13341.131,"text":"而且你那時候講如果人民社團法人做隱匿或是虛偽的證詞還要負刑法上的責任也就是一年以下或是一顆一百萬元以下到目前為止你還是這樣主張嗎是我跟委員說明因為要調閱權這是大法官的解釋那你立法院要行使職權你要強化你的執行權要讓那個調閱權可以有效"},{"start":13342.072,"end":13349.174,"text":"那這個是一面然後配套的就是你的聽證制度要改革我們現在的公聽會其實有時候是沒有什麼我們自己其實立法院也必須要去強化它所以這個是對應的那但是這不涉及司法的調查權這不涉及喔 跟司法的權來 佳龍部長您先稍等喔"},{"start":13365.619,"end":13378.372,"text":"這個我們現在討論都是公聽會或是聽證會嘛您當時主張是人民如果來做隱匿或是虛偽的證詞還要負刑法上的責任也就是一年以下或是一科一百萬元以下"},{"start":13379.608,"end":13383.77,"text":"所以公聽會人民如果來做隱匿或是虛偽證詞就要負刑法上的責任一年以下或是一顆一百萬元以下"},{"start":13397.898,"end":13413.266,"text":"而且對於反對強化立法院調查權的立委都應該公佈讓社會知道問問他們為什麼自我閹割這個是有前提跟配套我就講是說是大法官解釋你們質疑於調閱權的行指就是資料本身啊不是司法的調查權喔這個要把它分開對沒有錯但是現在都在討論的是聽證權或是公聽會嘛對不對所以本席可以很負責任的告訴您在"},{"start":13424.792,"end":13445.823,"text":"這一次的國會改革再修正動議裡面人民社團或是法人如果說來聽證會及他有做虛偽不實的話是沒有刑責的比您當時在十幾年前所主張的還要輕微你當時主張是要一年以下對於人民有一年以下的刑責"},{"start":13447.148,"end":13460.582,"text":"本席也很負責告訴你反對強化立法院調查權的立委就是民進黨團現在的51席立委問問他們為什麼要自我閹割我們立法院的調查權"},{"start":13462.298,"end":13481.977,"text":"林佳龍部長根據委員報告 因為我的內容跟你不一樣 我有個上位的權利分立一樣依據憲法上對於五權的規定所以有關於具有司法性質的調查權 那是屬於司法院跟監察院在資料的調閱權上面 我們要讓它有效 必須強化國會"},{"start":13483.618,"end":13483.738,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13507.078,"end":13531.724,"text":"來 謝謝因為外面都有斷章取義我也利用這個機會說明一下沒有問題給你說明我現在還不會跟你講說你現在算是藐視國會不過本席這個我順便說明我沒有藐視國會的文字出現在我的這個我知道你沒有把這個是藐視國會這個我有一說一你從頭到尾你在12年前的這個公聽會上沒有講到藐視國會這個我還你清白來"},{"start":13534.685,"end":13549.205,"text":"部長拉回來啦前兩天本席看到外交部有一個非常好的記者會這個記者會講是說我們也加入了全球隱私執法合作協議那主要的目的跟方式是要做什麼"},{"start":13550.927,"end":13552.328,"text":"全球隱私執法合作協議"},{"start":13567.639,"end":13568.699,"text":"主要的重點 盼加強各資的保障"},{"start":13586.787,"end":13615.336,"text":"是那我想請教現在要推動並且也有要跟其他的國際夥伴這邊要共同推動隱私執法的合作強化民眾的各自保障那這樣子外交部的具體作為會不會跟我們最近的這個新聞有執政黨的執行長傳出說掌握了公民活動群眾各自的監控會不會跟我們外交部加入這個合作協議的初始初終相抵觸"},{"start":13616.769,"end":13620.631,"text":"因為你提的是個案我對這個個案我並不清楚所以我也沒辦法在這裡針對這個個案來評論但是原則性我們當然台灣不只是說加入這個協議我們也是對於這個聯合國的兩個公約"},{"start":13633.419,"end":13651.002,"text":"還有相關對於隱私保障我們有一整套的法律制度擔不擔心我們國際友邦或是說加入這樣協議的其他的國際會員問起說怎麼會執政黨的執行長居然會去有掌握群眾各自的一個新聞"},{"start":13652.003,"end":13666.099,"text":"因為我不清楚這個個案,所以我也不予評論。在原則上,我們當然要台灣做一個民主法治的國家,透明,或者對隱私的保障。那下一個,因為您之前也是外交部跟曾經擔任過交通部長"},{"start":13666.92,"end":13693.64,"text":"那之前外交部跟交通部有共同宣誓希望能夠推動再一次的來參與ICAO也就是國際民航組織是國際民航組織相對來講我覺得是非常重要因為對於我們台灣來講這一些都是第一手的資訊那現在換您擔任外交部長了過去可能大家也有講說上一任的外交部長戰狼性格很強那您現在有沒有信心任內有機會我們參與國際民航組織ICAO"},{"start":13696.983,"end":13716.661,"text":"我們就是努力嘛,全力以赴,因為這些國際組織都涉及到很多的對中共的一個影響那另外對於國際法的解釋,所以我們是朝這個目標來努力,因為這個國際銀行組織涉及到的其實非常的安全是跨越國境的因為我覺得您是最有資格講這個話的人"},{"start":13718.543,"end":13731.079,"text":"您擔任過交通部長之前的民航業務是您主管現在您又擔任外交部長所以能夠對外發聲並且來積極展現參與國際民航組織您是最有資格有多少把握?"},{"start":13732.383,"end":13747.999,"text":"我們努力,因為其實這個組織我以前當然也包括我當交部長跟美國有協調要去推動,但事實上當然因為這個組織的秘書處,他本身目前的狀況我還很需要去再突破。"},{"start":13748.94,"end":13749.18,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":13781.704,"end":13784.985,"text":"首先來請教部長目前我們的邦交國有多少國?2016年總統蔡英文上任的時候我們的邦交國是幾個?"},{"start":13807.345,"end":13819.516,"text":"大概是22個左右那當時的蔡前總統喊了一個口號叫做踏實外交為策略所以最後留下了8年結果是10個國家斷交"},{"start":13824.941,"end":13852.364,"text":"這是慘痛的記錄當然我們不希望如此我們也知道我們有困境現在剩下的12個國家在這個前部長的時候呢那就斷交了8個所以在這樣的一個情況之下新政府對於整個邦交國的策略尤其您上來您又非常有經驗您有什麼策略您預計要跟以往不一樣的方向是什麼是"},{"start":13853.004,"end":13875.336,"text":"我可以跟委員講大概有三個方面當然一個我們把故邦提升到榮邦不只是說好像為了鞏固這個邦交我們要繁榮這一個邦交國所以我們臺灣的經驗跟發展模式可以幫他找到其實對這第一點第二點我是覺得藉由像美國日本跟澳洲我們一起來榮邦"},{"start":13876.917,"end":13896.754,"text":"第三點我覺得經貿外交是台灣現在其實最可以在我們的邦交國上使力其實包括非邦交國也都很想跟台灣合作你看中東歐包括像捷克、立陶宛雖然不是正式的邦交國但其實我們的外交關係不輸於一般的邦交國"},{"start":13898.632,"end":13921.71,"text":"所以部長你這樣回答我也歡喜聽到你是樂觀與對本來就是要樂觀與對我們才有戰力那要請教部長那目前現在的這個國安會的秘書長吳前部長他在受訪的時候他有說他有說他在卸任的時候他說有兩個邦交國短期沒問題長期有隱憂請問你有掌控這個資訊嗎"},{"start":13926.654,"end":13944.035,"text":"對這12個邦交國我每一個都很關注因此狀況我都有掌握他所謂的短期沒問題長期有引誘他已經點出兩個邦交國我們不希望發生所以這個引誘的狀況是在520之後的變化嗎?你掌控嗎?有沒有這回事?"},{"start":13945.477,"end":13962.515,"text":"其實每一個都很重要都要努力我以前部長所說的有沒有這回事你有沒有掌控這兩個國家因為我不清楚他所謂的這兩個邦交但是是哪一個具體國家對我來講12個邦交國我們都要努力不只故邦而且榮邦"},{"start":13962.915,"end":13963.296,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13980.578,"end":13997.266,"text":"受訪的時候說兩個邦交國短期沒問題長期有隱憂表示是有這回事所以我也希望你充分去了解在這12個國家當中到底到底這兩國你必須要去掌控因為知道問題才能夠解決問題贊不贊同這樣的一個論點"},{"start":14001.707,"end":14022.512,"text":"是,其實最近520總統就職典禮來的國家,我們都有機會跟他進行很深入的討論這是好的現象,但是我還是提點部長,我以前部長所說的這兩個國家短期沒問題,長期有問題,有隱憂,這個你務必要嚴正以待,這是我給你的建議,可以接受吧"},{"start":14023.112,"end":14023.132,"text":"吳哲"},{"start":14033.407,"end":14033.547,"text":"有責謹慎應對之。"},{"start":14059.803,"end":14083.135,"text":"我們目前加入的進度究竟是如何?因為我們也了解到中國大陸比台灣早一週來申請所以我們的進度是如何呢?我們就是跟今年的輪值主席國加拿大有很密切的在諮商那因為他是採取共識決可是怎麼樣進入工作小組"},{"start":14084.336,"end":14093.046,"text":"如果能夠進行的話,我們就能夠就實時面跟這個CPTPP的國家展開一些諮商那這樣就可以具體解決一些問題這個是蠻關鍵的一步"},{"start":14099.253,"end":14123.934,"text":"因為CPP、TPP對於我們整個國家來講是非常的重要所以掌控的時間大陸方面比我們早一個禮拜神奇那我方要怎麼應對我想這個對台灣的經濟很重要在外交部的工作應該是列為重點工作之一吧所以一起加油那針對於本學非常關心的iCare因為我們台中也有我們的機場"},{"start":14125.956,"end":14132.372,"text":"埃克爾德國際民航組織本席認為非常的重要請問目前參與的進度如何?"},{"start":14135.168,"end":14161.427,"text":"因為民航涉及到跨國的飛航的安全所以確實台灣沒有加入是世界的損失那我們也積極在爭取台灣也非常的符合標準那現在還是中共的打壓所以他們秘書處在處理這些事情上面當然還沒有辦法做突破可是我覺得最近對於2758號決議聯大這個決議我想也是一個很重要的攻防"},{"start":14161.727,"end":14184.217,"text":"因為中共企圖用所謂的聯大2758號決議去等同於一中原則可是包括美國跟很多的民主國家認為這個並無涉臺灣的參與所以支持臺灣來申請加入包括RKO WHO UNFCCC 另外是 INTERPOL"},{"start":14184.737,"end":14210.177,"text":"這四個最重要的就是它是一個國際性的一個組織部長你談到這裡這就是我們台灣人的精神台灣人的勇敢你一定要往前走你要看WHA政府還是帶領我們三黨各排一位跟著部長一起我們是不放棄任何的機會這個跨黨派一起走出去這也是很令人感動的這個部份本期還是希望新政府新氣象新部長有新作為本期還是期待之繼續加油"},{"start":14211.798,"end":14233.812,"text":"最後一個議題本席要請教外交是內政的延伸這是您的方向那之前的吳前部長他在他的推特裡頭他也說了媒體封他是一個戰狼部長那你認為他自己也認可說魔法部的"},{"start":14234.813,"end":14237.795,"text":"他隨時會用他的署名JW在外交部的帳號發言親上火線槍下,您會延續這樣的方式嗎?"},{"start":14257.878,"end":14257.978,"text":"臺灣加油!謝謝!"},{"start":14290.538,"end":14292.584,"text":"接下來請武力華委員上台質詢"},{"start":14303.221,"end":14324.278,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長。謝謝部長。部長,辛苦了。很高興看見您,感覺充滿希望。謝謝您。剛才有提到,我們有12個邦交國。想要請教部長,我不知道您有沒有了解,其中有哪幾個國家是南島語族國家?"},{"start":14325.453,"end":14343.979,"text":"當然在太平洋這個比較南島的話就有三個國家嘛是對呀 帛琉那馬紹爾群島還有這個土瓦魯對 四分之一嘛是 對十二分之三對 十二分之三 四分之一那您知不知道南島語族國家占多少的人口"},{"start":14346.841,"end":14346.861,"text":"將近4億"},{"start":14361.9,"end":14376.618,"text":"好,那我是這樣子想啦,你應該很清楚,如果以其中帛琉來講,他截至目前,他跟蘭嶼達烏族那邊,語言的相似度還維持在60%,60%很高喔,就是表示還是能夠通喔"},{"start":14381.382,"end":14403.33,"text":"我們越來越清楚知道說很多的南島國家也承認跟台灣有關係甚至都會說是他們的母親那我也知道其實有很多的南島語族的國家他其實對亞洲人是敵視的他不太信任因為他覺得華人太聰明"},{"start":14404.901,"end":14422.429,"text":"所以如果在這樣的狀況之下您同不同意我們臺灣原住民族的族人非常適合來擔任我們南島國家的外交官很適合啊很適合嘛那您知道有嗎有啊誰"},{"start":14427.096,"end":14449.461,"text":"就是到,因為是蔡總統任內嘛,因為我也是無人鎖大使,所以我知道有一位無人鎖大使嘛,可是他真的有到國外去嗎?他有薪水嗎?沒有對啊那您覺得這個是尊重原住民的做法嗎?因為無人鎖大使是做的設計事項,當然也可以做一些檢討跟看怎麼樣來精進能不能有正式的外交官?"},{"start":14454.029,"end":14474.404,"text":"其實台灣的外交官他有公務員的考試特別是外交特考當然這個正式的制度目前就是有他取材的標準那正式的制度能不能夠特別的來去做我為什麼這樣講其實原住民的背景的我們的外交部的同仁表現都很優秀7位那要把著啊"},{"start":14476.035,"end":14503.195,"text":"提拔我特別來看一下要把他們挑出來好不好讓他能夠找到最能發揮的位置因為他有這個背景我這樣子說的原因是其實我們有很多外交的空間其實是在夾縫中求生存要找到生機那對我來講我看到這幾年像這個原住民族經濟貿易合作協議這個IPECA它其實是在2022年的時候"},{"start":14505.316,"end":14533.379,"text":"原民會發動那去加入臺灣紐西蘭加拿大澳洲這四個國家是創始會員國也是國際首見的第一個那未來當然我們樂見有更多的國家投入但是這是一個我們參加很重要簽署的一個協議可是我們來看一下2008年部長其實有一位叫Yuhani"},{"start":14534.38,"end":14563.746,"text":"那是陳水扁總統的時候他有把這一位尤哈尼派駐斐濟是我國第一位原住民的駐外大使16年來僅此一位其他都叫無任所大使所以部長您了解我的意思我真的是希望說您能不能夠在這個當中去看到我們國家的機會這是很重要的"},{"start":14566.227,"end":14583.375,"text":"當然我不要講文化的層面我舉個例子對我們原住民台灣原住民如果以目前16族來講沒有一個族群是我們可以講無稷不租殺豬對我們的婚喪喜慶是很重要的可是你去看這些帛琉也好土法魯也好跟我們一模一樣"},{"start":14584.395,"end":14599.467,"text":"他們也是都很需要殺豬所以其實我們在文化的交流語言的交流很重要的是他們對台灣原住民是信任的他們真的覺得我們是有血緣的他們很願意來跟我們做朋友"},{"start":14600.288,"end":14624.016,"text":"所以我在這個地方真的是強烈的建議因為我們的賴總統他其實也有特別的提到他說重視栽培原住民特別是外交這一塊所以我是希望說我們來重視好不好那部長我們想辦法把它落實好不好我真的是希望我們能夠有正式的原住民外交官再多一點可以嗎"},{"start":14625.029,"end":14630.755,"text":"接下來我就是想要延伸因為像我們有一個這個叫做我們台紐的經濟協定那特別是很感謝這個紐西蘭他有特別在FTA當中去增加一個原住民專章"},{"start":14646.132,"end":14664.222,"text":"那這個為什麼我們覺得很珍貴因為這是第一個我們能夠跟非邦交國的一個正式經濟協定所以部長你應該了解這個協定是很重要的對吧很正式吧所以我們覺得很重要啊那現在的話我就想要請教一下"},{"start":14665.663,"end":14694.235,"text":"我們在陳水扁總統的時候2002年他有簽一個原住民族與臺灣政府的一個新夥伴關係在肯認他有完成協定簽署協定簽署你剛才說協定是很正式的協定簽署所以我因為很多人這些年都一直問說政府在騙我們民進黨都在騙我們簽那個都是假的一點意義都沒有"},{"start":14694.955,"end":14700.578,"text":"部長請問這個2002年完成的這個協定簽署他是國家文件嗎是啊現在原轉會齁其實在蔡總統這8年來是落實了很多裡面的規定所以部長這個是一份正式的國家文件對吧因為我要確認這件因為好多人都會問我們而且都會揶揄都會嘲諷"},{"start":14722.267,"end":14736.676,"text":"先是把宣誓性或是說這種儀式怎麼樣落實為在制度面的保障這個是在原轉會裡面其實真的效果也不錯然後蔡總統當時最後一次開會的時候賴副總統也在場他也表達會繼續來推動"},{"start":14739.718,"end":14757.56,"text":"好,那我想說謝謝部長您今天給予我很多的回應那這些回應對我們原住民族來講都非常的珍貴那謝謝您,未來呢,原住民的外交工作還有外交人才、外交官希望你能夠多多的來提攜"},{"start":14758.881,"end":14777.737,"text":"我可不可以簡單回應一下委員其實台灣我們講台灣是南島語系所以我們除了是西南向的國家也是南島語系的國家所以我在這次業務報告我有特別把原住民族的外交有列進來那台灣就是說can help或台灣can lead"},{"start":14778.277,"end":14778.457,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":14803.058,"end":14822.292,"text":"接下來請李博毅委員李博毅李博毅委員不在請陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇委員不在我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者"},{"start":14831.579,"end":14841.131,"text":"亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員令約定期限者,從其所定本日會議到此結束,散會謝謝大家"},{"start":14936.913,"end":14937.643,"text":"受到不同等"}]}},{"id":"15970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15970","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea1dc129ce818bd3286425655b8120616f3be8d109af184be4e4b9d60b4ed6f1125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra 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t":2445.189,"end":2463.437,"text":"國有財產署專門委員羅玉華行政院公共工程委員會企劃處的處長徐肇熙行政院人事行政總處主編人力處的專門委員蔡憲維行政院主計處公務預算處專門委員王淺凱基金預算處的科長周明正"},{"start":2471.49,"end":2488.847,"text":"非常謝謝我們現在請提案說明提案要紙我們今天因為有審員都會原住民權力發展條例草案組說明我們是不是先請鄭天才委員先說明吳立華委員先在後面"},{"start":2494.54,"end":2504.547,"text":"我們先請吳麗華委員提案說明。謝謝主席各位同仁大家早安吳麗華提案說明"},{"start":2520.581,"end":2535.835,"text":"這一次的審查除了我的版本之外還有陳寅委員、高金昭委及鄭天才委員的版本總共有4個版本我在今天原民會審查說明的資料當中看到"},{"start":2536.894,"end":2559.743,"text":"各個委員所提出的四個版本從規劃保障範圍的定義名稱不同草案內容側重的領域也不同提出來的模式都各有所不同依據原民會最新的人口統計資料我們都知道都市地區原住民的人口已經來到50.2%這個條例確實有設立的需求"},{"start":2566.69,"end":2587.95,"text":"但是同時本條例對都市地區的原住民族權益涉及的事務層面甚廣。內容的規劃以及執行都需要進行橫向跨機關統籌協調,更遑論尊重都市地區原住民意願的重要。"},{"start":2589.321,"end":2611.786,"text":"所以我主張原民會應該要儘速的辦理相關會議各式的公聽會、座談會、搜集都市地區原住民以及各個部會甚至地方縣市政府的意見要儘速的在本屆期提出草案的版本"},{"start":2613.049,"end":2638.935,"text":"以利於各委員的版本可以聚焦並且達成共識完備立法的程序應有的過程而我目前所提的版本主要的目的跟大家並無二致但是我注重的是都市地區原住民族的工作權以及居住正義還有文化延續的保障"},{"start":2639.835,"end":2665.706,"text":"因此我說明幾項。第一,我的版本第15條針對都市原住民的工作權保障明定各級政府機關、公立學校以及公營事業機構辦理位於都市地區未達政府採購法公告金額之採購得保留百分之三十採購件數由原住民個人、機構、法人或團體承包"},{"start":2668.647,"end":2678.893,"text":"但原住民個人、機構、法人或團體無法承包者不在此限。目前我看到的版本大多是以10%為訴求,但是我認為我們的版本"},{"start":2685.316,"end":2705.922,"text":"應該既然提出來,要更促進、更鼓勵政府各類型的標案來優先考慮具有完善條件以及資格的原住民廠商,因此提升保留採購件數到30%,希望可以強化我們在都會地區原住民的經濟保障。"},{"start":2707.802,"end":2723.993,"text":"另外我的版本在第17、第18條特別處理都市地區原住民族的住宅政策並且要求直轄市或縣市要新辦社會住宅因岸轄區內原住民人口數比例分配"},{"start":2724.873,"end":2726.054,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":2755.474,"end":2767.785,"text":"早期因法令不完善而形成的聚落以及都會區原住民青年能夠有真正平等友善的居住權益。做以下的說明報告,懇請支持。謝謝。"},{"start":2782.214,"end":2804.181,"text":"今天我們大概要談的是都會原住民權力發展條例草案對於這份草案我的說明是這樣子按照原基法基本法第28條的規定政府對於居住原住民族地區之外的原住民應該對他的健康、安居、融資、就學、就養"},{"start":2804.861,"end":2828.721,"text":"就業、就醫、還有社會適應等等這些問題給予保障還有協助也因為我們城鄉發展落差非常的大因而被迫離開原鄉謀收的原住民族人以目前相關調查的數據來看原住民族在都會區涉及的人口數已經高達全體原住民人口的49%以上"},{"start":2831.063,"end":2859.542,"text":"二、依照原住民族地區鄉鎮市區公署的推估,涉及原住民族地區的族人大約一成到三成實際居住在都市地區。實際居住在都市原住民人口數應該是全體原住民人口數的65%。所以也就是說,原住民族人口的分布結構實際上已經有非常多數的人口是遷居在都會地區的。"},{"start":2860.503,"end":2860.943,"text":"四、審查四、審查"},{"start":2880.074,"end":2896.699,"text":"救醫還有社會適應的問題政府應該是要給予協助的那麼最終的目標我們是希望都會原住民的族人在共同維護原住民族的語言還有附贈原住民族的文化"},{"start":2897.239,"end":2897.659,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":2923.953,"end":2938.061,"text":"為在這一屆裡面真正的施政的目標也希望新任的總統賴清德總統能夠對於都會原住民族的族人的權益給予保障跟支持。謝謝。謝謝。感謝。我們感謝高金召委。我們今天才召委提案說明。"},{"start":2954.725,"end":2977.293,"text":"趙偉主席、各位委員、還有我們原民會的所有的我們的官員。原住民族基本法第28條本來就規定政府對於居住原住民族第7以外之原住民應對其健康、安積、融資、就學、就養、就業"},{"start":2980.086,"end":3006.407,"text":"就醫及社會適應等事項給予保障及協助本席在109年10月109年的9月23號特別針對研究法28條提出修正條文因為弱了一些所以我增加了要提案修正針類語言文化習俗經濟還有衛生"},{"start":3010.779,"end":3036.772,"text":"然後在109年的10月21號本席當時擔任內政委員會的召集委員在這裡主持原住民族基本法28條的修正條文經過審查的這個過程的當中當時審發會委員在質詢以降主委的時候特別提到"},{"start":3037.95,"end":3064.755,"text":"我們應該要制定都市原住民族發展條例。當時已將主任委員承諾要制定都市原住民發展條例。經過這4年的時間,人民會召開了很多次的會議,也邀請了地方政府,包括相關的專家寫者,"},{"start":3067.375,"end":3091.748,"text":"來開會來制定草擬都市原住民發展條例的草案那為什麼這4年一直都沒有送來到立法院甚至連送到行政院都沒有我認為就是因為涉及到很多的相關部會不願意支持所以我要拜託我們所有的立委"},{"start":3093.103,"end":3106.729,"text":"不必等行政院的版本立法院本來就有立法的權利這是我們的義務所以既然我們原住民的立委已經提出了四個版本"},{"start":3107.608,"end":3126.057,"text":"我們就好好地來審查這個都市原住民發展條例因為都會期的原住民人口已經高達50.21%的人口數這是有涉戶級的加上沒有涉戶級的"},{"start":3127.926,"end":3156.105,"text":"絕對是超過65%以上所以絕對是需要有這樣的一個條都市原住民發展條例來落實原住民族基本法28條的一些的重要的一個規定在這邊特別拜託我們所有的立法委員能夠支持以上謝謝好非常謝謝鄭天才委員的說明提案說明現在我們請陳毅委員提案說明"},{"start":3168.136,"end":3186.528,"text":"謝謝主席那跟大家報告那我特別提出這個都市地區原住民族發展條例的這個提案呢我想主要只是在這重振這麼多年來我們原民會其實有應該說先說我們的都會區的原住民其實人口數"},{"start":3187.629,"end":3214.231,"text":"已經達到了將近大概一半左右那但是呢我們在整體預算的運用上呢有大部分的預算是被框在原鄉的那例如說現在在我們原鄉這個這樣一個很好的政績就是我們在如火如荼的在很多的地區增加建設了很多的這個聚會所"},{"start":3214.671,"end":3214.991,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":3231.781,"end":3253.864,"text":"把這個都市地區原住民族聚落特別指出是指原住民族遷居都市地區形成群居社區這個部分我特別把這個都會區的這個聚落把這個名詞定義把它定出來框起來"},{"start":3254.925,"end":3281.101,"text":"這樣子未來在都會區的原住民也可以享受到比較多的預算這個部分大概是要解決這樣子的問題當然我理解例如在過去我曾經主持我們原住民族健康法的審議那當時也是沒有行政院的版本但是我必須要講就是說行政院到底有沒有願版"},{"start":3283.743,"end":3285.824,"text":"原住民族委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3307.638,"end":3333.015,"text":"這是一個不得已的狀態但是如果有願版的一起共同的支持我想這樣子我們在推動上是會更理想的所以我想也建議大家就是說因為這個版本我們這樣子也提出來了也希望在未來的時間大家可以多辦公聽會也收集各個地區大家的意見好以上謝謝"},{"start":3334.977,"end":3335.497,"text":"主委,您要幾分鐘做報告?"},{"start":3368.856,"end":3372.018,"text":"主席、還有各位委員。首先,我要謝謝大院多年來對"},{"start":3388.464,"end":3407.179,"text":"我們本會業務的支持跟協助。那我想以下我請就比較重要的部分來跟各位做報告。常常上首先就是這個我們會依據111年限判制第17號的判決。我們會依限來訂定專法讓我們的"},{"start":3412.328,"end":3425.858,"text":"平埔族早日取得原住民的身份。希望是在114年的10月27日在這個期限之前能夠來讓他們取得原住民的身份。二、推動國家級原住民博物館"},{"start":3432.571,"end":3459.627,"text":"那這個原住民族的博物館我們在113年的4月就已經報行政院來這個成立這個籌備處那希望跟高雄市政府來合作因為一些工程的這個淨土還有工程的花包都委由高雄市政府那我們跟他們來協助希望是在這個121年就能夠正式的營運"},{"start":3461.288,"end":3462.709,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":3477.365,"end":3493.918,"text":"修正原住民族工作前的保障法,我們希望儘快擴大植物類型,提高經用比例,增訂減輕機制,希望原住民族工作前保障法能順利通過修正。"},{"start":3497.008,"end":3499.05,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":3517.332,"end":3517.572,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":3541.958,"end":3563.428,"text":"對旅遊的部分有3000萬我們希望能夠趕快來促進我們這個花蓮這邊的這個旅遊的部分還有教會的補助我們也希望那個錢趕快到位讓修善教會就能夠趕快來實行希望在最短的時間很多的很多對這個災害的這個重建經費能夠趕快到位最後就是有關剛才講的這個我們的這個這個"},{"start":3572.708,"end":3581.828,"text":"都市原住民的這個發展條例我想因為我剛到我想這個條例我想也應該還要"},{"start":3583.78,"end":3583.84,"text":"四、公聽會五、議會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":3609.781,"end":3630.738,"text":"其實我們都會期的原住民就已經有在照顧也有用其他的計畫來照顧他們那如果是一定要訂這個都委員條例的話我想我們更要有這個充分的這個訊息跟部落跟地方政府做協助來請他們來做提報更精準的一些訊息"},{"start":3631.96,"end":3644.631,"text":"我們也會很快的在內部是不是討論一下是不是我們的版本也趕快提出來來跟我們委員的這個版本一起來提的話我想併案來審查的話一定會更完備這個法案的這個這個討論我想嚴明會議"},{"start":3653.979,"end":3654.259,"text":"今天的報告就到這裡。"},{"start":3676.209,"end":3677.169,"text":"其他單位報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。"},{"start":3696.978,"end":3719.435,"text":"現在我們進行詢答。委員質詢前,我們做以下幾點宣告。第一個就是本會籍原住民委員發言的時間是6分鐘,必要的時候延長2分鐘。我本來是想要10分鐘加2分鐘,但是看曾主委剛剛有點緊張,他的表現我有一點替他擔心,所以我們不需要那麼長的時間,我知道。"},{"start":3721.842,"end":3747.331,"text":"本會還有原住民委員發言的時間是6分鐘,必要的時間就延長2分鐘。非本會委員發言的時間是6分鐘,上午10點30分我們截止發言登記。而臨時提案呢,我們希望是在10點減止說案,然後在本會委員詢答完畢之後我們來處理。好,謝謝。我們現在請登記第一位的蘇巧惠委員做質詢。"},{"start":3757.346,"end":3761.287,"text":"主委好主委沒關係啦不用緊張我們其實就是就事情討論那其實大家都是想要解決問題啊"},{"start":3778.081,"end":3800.434,"text":"那我想是這樣子因為今天剛剛第一次聽到主委這邊的這個口頭的報告那其實跟您的業務報告這個書面的這本呢範圍和內容都有一點不太一樣那其實如果以業務報告的內容來講的話我相信這一屆的原住民"},{"start":3800.894,"end":3802.076,"text":"三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3822.838,"end":3847.453,"text":"諮商取得原住民族部落同意參與辦法和原住民土地使用規則原住民族保留地管理利用條例的立法現在都在進度上嗎因為都寫成業務報告了是所以都會有願版對我們都會提出來什麼時候會提啊我們內部討論因為很快的時間我們這至少這三個月內我們會慢慢提出來這樣三個月內喔"},{"start":3852.912,"end":3874.059,"text":"主委這真的都是蠻大的事情那我是希望能夠有比較綜合的各個面向都能夠討論完整之後再提出來因為像我們今天的這一部法律那其實我必須說過去我對原民會的印象就是其實原民會很辛苦因為原民會其實就有點像小的行政院"},{"start":3874.699,"end":3874.879,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":3900.439,"end":3921.474,"text":"原民會的事情我們通常都會大力的支持可是如果今天看到這一部法律案如果我們把這部法來細究的話其實這一部法又包含了所有的面向剛剛所有點到的教育、醫療、工作、健康等等通通都有包括"},{"start":3922.074,"end":3948.545,"text":"所以剛剛在說我們這件事情是橫跨如果以橫軸來講的話是橫跨各部會縱軸來講的話從地方到中央通通都會包含這個要徵詢的意見實在是非常的多那主委請問你有算過那個幕僚單位有給你資料大概會牽涉多少單位嗎那現在徵詢討論的意見已經完成了多少"},{"start":3951.137,"end":3964.749,"text":"抱歉主席在這邊提醒主委你在這邊的發言會在公報上刊登的所以請你回答委員的詢答的時候請你注意小心因為這邊真的很多單位"},{"start":3968.71,"end":3990.744,"text":"這個很多會涉及到教育部也有啦,勞動部也有,還有農業部也有,甚至於這個這個衛福部也有,所以很多的單位,所以這個必須要對,所以我的問題就是主委你知道有多少的單位嗎?是多到說不完呢?還是是說是一個你可以已經掌握了解很多了,那我"},{"start":3991.144,"end":4011.543,"text":"更具體的問題是那這些部會你都溝通到什麼程度了因為我們今天已經如果一切順利進行的話我們詢答完就要開始進入審查了所以各部會的意見是非常重要的我們想要了解一下你跟多少部會已經溝通過了這些部會的態度如何這是很重要的事情啊"},{"start":4012.329,"end":4038.087,"text":"我們至少是跟8個部會都有這個做說明做溝通但是我想因為我們持續還要那他們都同意嗎基本上院板上他們都有同意院板院板還沒有送進來呢也就是我們的這個草案啦我們自己會會裡面的草案可是我們沒有看到你這個草案那你的草案什麼時候要送來所以你們有草案所以你們是贊成制定的"},{"start":4039.414,"end":4039.834,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":4058.075,"end":4083.104,"text":"制定的這個法他們沒有辦法做或者是根本他們就不是那麼願意配合的話這個法就推不出來好主委我其實今天準備的稿子這個是蠻複雜的啦那我其實是這樣講我們今天要訂的這個法其實會跟現在非常多的法律是相關的包括原住民族的基本法我們根據第28條所以有這麼多的項目我們希望都能夠再有進一步的法治規劃那可是你來看如果本條例裡面"},{"start":4084.505,"end":4105.021,"text":"跟健康促進相關的本條例說大部分四個版本都有說提供都會原住民健康促進及衛生保健服務可是我們在原住民族的健康法也有規定啊那這一些項目到底是應該用原住民族健康法作為依規還是是要用原住民都會現在要做的這一部法案來做依規呢這兩者到底是誰先誰後好再來第二個給你看的話語言發展法語言發展法裡面也一樣啊"},{"start":4110.345,"end":4127.819,"text":"原發展法裡面甚至是規定的更詳細從國民教育到主管機關跟地方的相關他要怎麼去設立科系所學成學位甚至是縣市主管機關應開設原住民族語言學習課程供民眾休息等等他規定的這麼細了那現在做了"},{"start":4129.741,"end":4156.687,"text":"都做了一個這個都會原住民族的這個相關條例的話那到底是要用哪一個做依規甚至第三個我舉第三個第三個的話這個我們在這工作權益促進的部分也是一樣所以我們有這麼多的法規他到底是互相焊隔還是是有重複不需要另定還是是我們必須把它中整起來變成一部跟都市原住民相關的法律這個態度當然要能夠清楚嘛"},{"start":4158.928,"end":4180.379,"text":"所以第一個有沒有相關的法條的整理配套這是我認為應該要執行的第二個就是您剛剛說的跟各部會相關部會以及地方縣市政府都應該要有他們的明確具體的態度以及會發生的影響要怎麼處理這也是應該要有的資料啊所以主委我這樣想合理嘛"},{"start":4181.519,"end":4182.02,"text":"目前沒有這個限制"},{"start":4210.848,"end":4235.461,"text":"目前當然是沒有說我是問你有沒有要接下來因為你要保障的東西很多你要給的權益很多所以你有沒有要這個限制你可能也要告訴我們嘛那最後我其實更想知道是說那你訂了這一部專法之後是可以解決什麼問題嗎比如說像我自己這邊我在土樹山陰嘛那我們要的聚會所一直沒有辦法設置起來啊那所以有了這部法就可以解決這些問題嗎就這部法到底要解決哪一些問題不是應該先講一下"},{"start":4238.422,"end":4262.268,"text":"是不是可以在正式進入法條審查之前貴會可以提供我們委員你訂了這部法尤其是你剛剛說你有專法的有期待要訂專法嘛對不對你要解決哪一些問題所以哪一些法條因為設計了設置了就可以解決這個資料可以一份到辦公室來嗎"},{"start":4264.449,"end":4281.321,"text":"那還有前面我剛剛洋洋灑灑念了這麼多我們如果今天下午就開始審查你有辦法提供給我們嗎各部會的態度各縣市政府的態度各相關法律案的漢格與衝突還有到底要解決哪些問題我這樣講就四種了"},{"start":4284.164,"end":4290.43,"text":"主委您看過今天其他委員的版本嗎?有,四個版本有看四個版本都看了那你剛剛巧惠委員的質詢好像您好像在狀況之外"},{"start":4309.461,"end":4331.136,"text":"對,他講的就是有一些,比如像那個集會所的...好,沒關係,我們待會有很多委員會就教您,謝謝繼續我們請蔓玉珍委員來質詢喔,對不起,對,張宏祿,大家都已經剛...今天這個業務大選,所以有點緊張啊,我都有點流汗了好,我們請張宏祿委員,謝謝喬輝委員,你也流汗了嗎?好,謝謝辛苦啦"},{"start":4340.507,"end":4341.008,"text":"有請曾主委"},{"start":4355.027,"end":4373.055,"text":"主委我們也知道你也才剛來接任那其實有些的事情你也可以請你們底下的官員幫你你們處長什麼你可以請他幫你做提醒回答我首先我想要先請教主委"},{"start":4374.741,"end":4403.272,"text":"你有說過啊平埔族正名的修法希望讓平埔族人儘早取得身份這是不是你認為一個很重要然後必須要積極推動的一個政策是也要依據憲法的這個判決我們要儘快的已經拖了一年半要讓平埔族的這個相信取得這個原住民的身份"},{"start":4404.588,"end":4421.004,"text":"那你有想要怎麼去做了嗎?我們已經先認定這個族群,就是比如說他是那個這個這個奧西拉亞,或者是那個格哈伍,或者是這個"},{"start":4422.788,"end":4437.9,"text":"八宅先認定族群再來認定個人那我們先讓希望我們這裡趕快準備好讓這個評估能夠起的原住民先起的原住民的身份至於潛力義務我們後面再來做討論好如果這樣子的話"},{"start":4441.846,"end":4470.133,"text":"主委你的意思是先對族群先證明是然後再來是取得身份然後再取得權利大概這幾個步驟嘛是是不是可是主委啊你有沒有聽過一句台語的諺語啊有登山公無登山馬這個意思就是說啊如果真的要啊追源溯底一直往上查"},{"start":4471.198,"end":4478.804,"text":"有可能全台灣有平埔族血緣的,你有沒有預估大概會有多少人?憲法法庭它是說要有客觀的認定,它還有它的民俗還有它的文化還可以來印證,那麼應該這個就"},{"start":4497.352,"end":4524.305,"text":"不是啦 諸位我必須說啦客觀的認定憲法法庭並沒有講客觀的認定的標準在哪裡對不對那你客觀的認定其實最主要的到最後呢我們原民會可能是要做最大的去訂定客觀認定的標準那也有可能文化界的人士然後這些也會出來說有哪些文化有什麼的我講一個最簡單的"},{"start":4525.666,"end":4550.109,"text":"拜地基族是不是平埔族的文化你可能不知道也沒有關係但你可以去查有很多歷史的學者或什麼他認為拜地基族是從平埔族的文化來的你們的處長知不知道在台南的平埔族群他們確實是有這樣的一個習俗存在"},{"start":4551.516,"end":4570.932,"text":"確實嘛齁但拜地基族不是只有台南啊我看全台灣每個人都有拜地基族吧全台灣都有吧齁我只有簡單的講這一個就好了很多的全台灣的文化其實都跟平埔族的文化是息息相關的"},{"start":4572.113,"end":4590.382,"text":"如果要追根究底你的前幾代、十幾代、二十幾代前搞不好每個人都有平埔族的血統我今天講這個我只要跟主委你說你要證明平埔族什麼這個我非常非常的認同我真的非常的認同"},{"start":4592.318,"end":4618.184,"text":"主委我這樣講比較不好意思啦你如果說你要馬上積極去推動我認為要謹慎一點要謹慎一點因為我剛剛只有講這個喔大家底下都說每個人都有啊每個人都是可以成為平埔族喔以後全台灣的人大概有七成都說他是平埔族那"},{"start":4620.697,"end":4625.719,"text":"我為什麼要特別講這個呢?諸位我們今天討論的這個法條對不對你覺得如果平埔族每個都證明了全台灣有七成以上的人都是平埔族是不是用這個法條?"},{"start":4643.567,"end":4658.217,"text":"我們還是會有一些條件的限制因為至少在這個日本的這個戶籍登記上有熟跟平的這個註記的話那是比較可以認定是平補足的"},{"start":4658.917,"end":4675.728,"text":"不不不 主委我真的不 你回答不要這麼直接你可以不要這麼直接我剛剛講的如果以歷史的規範來講日據時代是日據時代日據時代台灣是被佔領的我們現在台灣是一個獨立的國家"},{"start":4680.891,"end":4700.602,"text":"我們中華民國捏我們怎麼還台灣那我們台灣的這個歷史文化我們是要別人來幫我們寫還是我們自己寫對不對我擔心的是這個如果你平埔族你說在你任內你想要把他推動那我剛剛講的有可能七成的人我都要申請我是平埔族啊他有沒有這個權利"},{"start":4705.745,"end":4723.092,"text":"他有他有這個權利他有這個權利我跟你講你到時候你就會很麻煩所以我們今天的這一個條例如果真的通過了所有平埔族的人他也可以要求適用那這樣子我們在原鄉的原住民朋友怎麼辦"},{"start":4726.349,"end":4749.398,"text":"我的意思是說我不反對喔我也反對要照顧原鄉的喔我也支持積極照顧在這個都市裡面的原住民我也很支持我以前就是民政局長這是我的業務我非常的支持但我們應該要去把一個法令啊齁要通盤的思考跟未來怎麼變化"},{"start":4750.816,"end":4773.537,"text":"阿不然我覺得我們會對不起喔很多人那我們在原鄉的怎麼辦好我們先不講平埔族的我在原鄉的我如果在都市裡面我可能我把所有的戶籍我會很多人遷到都市來喔那原鄉怎麼辦原鄉越來越沒有人欸那怎麼辦真正的根不見了欸"},{"start":4775.771,"end":4795.28,"text":"我比較擔心的是這個我不反對說要去照顧這個都市原住民我是希望說能夠找到更好的方式兼顧原鄉跟在都市的原住民我們如何去求求一個平衡點如何來去做那我看了一下這個今天這個我真的覺得說"},{"start":4796.673,"end":4818,"text":"還有一些東西我們可以再仔細的思考一下有的法條的內容我不在這邊多說但我覺得還可以給他更細緻一點更好一點我覺得做任何事情尤其是主委你應該要以照顧全台灣所有的原住民朋友的一個高度去看任何一個法案"},{"start":4818.92,"end":4843.929,"text":"我覺得因為到時候的資源的使用怎麼分配其實你是佔絕大多數的主導權的我們必須要兼顧所有在台灣不管在任何一個角落的原住民這點我真的是在這邊要特別說那我剛剛說的評普組的問題你真的要好好的思考一下好不好好謝謝謝謝張宏路委員的質詢謝謝謝謝謝謝曾主委"},{"start":4849.529,"end":4849.87,"text":"主席有請主委"},{"start":4866.758,"end":4887.66,"text":"主委好,我們都知道很多原住民因為生活,所以希望說來我們的都市找更好的工作。到都市尋找工作的時候,經常就是收到騎士、還有工作、還有租房、文化等的"},{"start":4890.521,"end":4905.445,"text":"政府過去都市原住民族的發展計劃預算的投入請問我們的原住民委員會是否有一個明確的評估還有指出哪一些的預算的成效如何?"},{"start":4908.601,"end":4913.564,"text":"從112年起我們推動的這個都市原住民地區的這個發展方案112年到116年我們5年預期的經費會大概是到7.6億那現在我們正在還在這個凝聚這個這個條例的草案我們會在近期會這個請行政院來審議也希望那個大院能夠"},{"start":4937.277,"end":4937.718,"text":"國門草案並同審議成效"},{"start":4949.727,"end":4973.679,"text":"有了這個這個這個後面的這個審查之後我們希望有一些的這個成效就是比如說比如說各個學校的尤其是比如像新北市有5所學校的這個補助還有推動22個地方政府的這個研資中心我們還辦理這個15所原住民的部落大學這個終身學習還有"},{"start":4974.8,"end":4978.682,"text":"受理文化體驗營的這個活動還有類似這個我們這個很多的教育課程我們都在都會區來辦謝謝 謝謝我們的主委因為有很多就是需求要解決這個只是一個課程的過程所以像居住的部分所以我們有統計過就是原住民家庭自租的"},{"start":5003.039,"end":5003.499,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":5026.125,"end":5039.048,"text":"租屋補貼還有社會租宅的資源請問這些的問題有如何去改善我們的狀況如何因為我們希望的是真正的照顧到我們希望剛剛委員講的我們能夠持續來照顧到我們的原住民的同胞"},{"start":5047.364,"end":5074.896,"text":"是是因為有很多遭到這樣子的就算我們新住民跟原住民都是會有就是雖然是說大家都不起事啦但是很多人的潛意識還是起事的所以說遭受到這樣子的一個一個部分所以我們要如何去改善啊不只是那個租補貼還有社會租宅還有我們一般的要去找工作還是租物會遭到就是拒絕"},{"start":5078.137,"end":5106.043,"text":"我們是不是請署長回答一下報告委員其實現在社會住宅他已經規定有一定比例是是是我說除了這兩項外那有沒有其他施收要幫助到我們的原住民有像我們本身的我們本會的建構修站過去是11萬跟22萬那現在我們最近再進一步希望再把補助的經費再調高10%那這項做法已經報告行政院去爭取行政院的支持"},{"start":5107.758,"end":5134.227,"text":"我知道我說除了這兩項外說我們有就是沒有辦法就是因為有身分表來去才有這個補助嘛除了這兩項外說有很多我們有受到這樣子的歧視啊或者是不給租物這樣子是有沒有其他的協助啦所以好沒關係我我是認為是說我們在原住民在在外地是"},{"start":5135.007,"end":5135.988,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":5164.163,"end":5168.488,"text":"五、凸顯示我們原住民在就業的市場不利。"},{"start":5177.523,"end":5183.784,"text":"保障外對於提供就業的創業培訓更多的機會就是要想要請教我們主委在這個方面有什麼策略就是租屋還有就業除了補助以外有沒有什麼策略更好的因為我們不是要靠補助來生活所以希望說上任後有更多的完善的策略"},{"start":5209.818,"end":5228.463,"text":"現在我們原住民的失業率跟平地的失業率確實是有拉近沒有相差很遠我們這個計畫我們也會持續來協助希望這個像那個彰化他在這裡有一個原住民促進就業方案繼續來實施"},{"start":5234.228,"end":5251.32,"text":"謝謝我們的主委因為剛才我們的委員有問到說一些文化的差異就像說很多人就是因為語言我們現在想要保留保留我們的語言還有文化像說"},{"start":5254.022,"end":5274.785,"text":"拜土地公不見得就是說一樣是原住民但是我們希望的就是說我們是不是說因為你拜土地公你就變原住民不是應該應該是說例子好了像我們越南我們拜土地公是我們是有"},{"start":5275.605,"end":5287.487,"text":"一個象徵來去拜這樣才是代表說你是有這個象徵不是因為你拜土地公你就是變成原住民不是這樣的邏輯所以我們也希望說把原住民的文化還有歷史真正的是保留因為沒有保留的話就會變成是減少現在就是像我們原住民的師資也會變少希望說這邊的話就導致很多學生沒辦法去學"},{"start":5305.171,"end":5305.271,"text":"四、推廣更好"},{"start":5334.969,"end":5358.785,"text":"是,所以我們就是希望是這樣所以我們是希望不管是原住民哪一族都有自己的特色跟文化希望我們原住民委員會更努力真正的解決我們都會市的環境還有居住還有就業還有我們保留我們原來的語言還有文化是,謝謝委員"},{"start":5362.726,"end":5368.391,"text":"謝謝感謝感謝邁臻委員質詢。我們請劉行廷委員質詢。謝謝主席。這個主委有請。請主委。"},{"start":5384.933,"end":5408.115,"text":"謝謝委員主委早安這個本期要針對5月13這個搬遷原住民族語言傳播大樓的員工搬遷權益來做後續討論那個要上來支援的可以啦沒問題喔這個因為他直接影響原文會跟原語會加起來差不多500多名員工嘛那如果加上配偶加券等等可能會有接近2000位族人的權益啦"},{"start":5409.075,"end":5431.708,"text":"今天討論的主題是叫做都市原住民原住民族語言傳播大樓搬到桃園未來這些人搬進來他也是都市原住民的一部分上次我們討論到安置的配套裡面曾經有討論過是不是要做員工宿舍或者是合宜住宅這樣子的一個方式請問這個案子後續現在主委有沒有掌握"},{"start":5432.737,"end":5448.553,"text":"現在我們應該是這兩天才剛剛跟這個這兩個基金會我們已經討論討論討論到了就是希望要挹注一些經費來解決他們的一些問題那挹注什麼樣的經費解決什麼樣的問題特別就是這個"},{"start":5451.676,"end":5472.257,"text":"請這兩個基金會的員工搬遷的前意我們要協助他們來幫忙來爭取這個他們的這個要蓋這個基金會希望在明年度的預算來協助所以是要幫他們蓋員工宿舍的意思嗎宿舍還要再等著兩基金會來做這個"},{"start":5474.775,"end":5494.168,"text":"那是不是先請署長回答一下好跟委員這個報告我們的這個按照勞基法的二十條之一確實是要協助兩基金會的員工要提供必要的協助在搬遷永久繪紙這件事情上面那協助的方案包括有這個搬遷的補助"},{"start":5494.969,"end":5516.488,"text":"包括有這個交通的這樣的一個補助協助那另外有關這個租屋租屋這部分的補助那這等等都還待還要等待兩基金會要溝通好了之後形成一個具體的方案再報到董事會這邊來通過通過之後才會送會裡面這邊來我們來做備查"},{"start":5520.652,"end":5534.563,"text":"已經快要已經快要快要遷移了不是嗎沒有這個我們的建築土木工程會到明年的3月才完工室內裝修要到明年底才完工那實際的搬遷的這個時程大概會落在115年的3到6月"},{"start":5536.644,"end":5536.744,"text":"要請基金會"},{"start":5559.575,"end":5579.108,"text":"大概三個月會形成這個具體的方案。三個月喔,好。上次答詢的時候你們有講啦,因為有徵詢桃園市政府的意見,但看起來桃園市政府配合的意願不高。但我們要做個釐清啦,後來我去了解了這整個提案的來龍去脈。他其實蠻希望在這個A16、A17附近嘛,就是說航空城的淡白區啦,來做一塊專有的像合一住宅。"},{"start":5579.508,"end":5606.506,"text":"然後讓這個員工來做相對便宜的價格來做認購概念上來說我覺得這是不錯的但是我們也問了桃園市政府的意見我承諾過我來負責協助溝通協調嘛那桃園市政府目前狀況回應是這樣就是說A16跟A17中間是航空城的區段徵收現在還沒有走到配遞的階段所以說你要在做用地取得來說客觀上來講它有些困難但還沒有取得配遞的階段不表示我們不可以在這個案子上做一些努力啊"},{"start":5607.086,"end":5624.615,"text":"為什麼呢?因為A16、A17周邊其實有非常多現在就是中央的土地叫農田水利署那現在我想請問這個原民會這裡有沒有針對中央的橫向連結先去了解說未來我能不能先取得一部分的土地讓我未來如果要興建員工宿舍或安置住宅是有土地可以用的"},{"start":5625.772,"end":5647.195,"text":"根源委員報告包括這個合意住宅包括社會住宅的這兩個方案那因為兩基金會還沒有把具體的這個規劃送到會裡面這邊所以我們還是等兩基金會送這些具體的規劃方案過來之後我們再來做協助包括剛剛委員所提到的一些土地取得上面的一些協調等等"},{"start":5648.223,"end":5666.104,"text":"我上次問你們的時候你們就講說是桃園市政府不配合然後現在問你的時候你現在變成說是兩基金會還沒有定案這種答詢的態度本席不是很滿意好沒關係新官上任我總是給你機會三個月內至少全部的方案你要怎麼去完善怎麼樣把土地的狀況先做調查"},{"start":5667.205,"end":5682.863,"text":"包含做橫向溝通我要求原民會來做相關的處理因為本席認為與其發交通津貼或租屋補助你若願意橫向溝通取得土地有員工宿舍的方式衝擊最小福利最大我覺得也才能夠徹底解決那個本來在你這個地方"},{"start":5683.583,"end":5711.943,"text":"原市或原民會上班的人因為搬遷我可能想要離職的狀況只有搬在附近解決通勤問題才能夠解決相關的問題也只有住在附近用最短的距離可能透過集結的方式來來上班才能降低桃園的交通衝擊那剛好旁邊既然有重劃就是有土地既然這是一個中央的政策為了照顧原住民族人同胞為了讓這個原住民語言傳播大樓的搬遷能夠順利它是一個中央政策的配套你當然是中央應該多有角色"},{"start":5712.523,"end":5735.655,"text":"所以現在一步一步來嘛取得土地的部分就拿中央的土地來做撥用它其實是一個相對容易的方式後續要興建不管你講說是要興建只出不賣的員工宿舍或者是用合宜住宅低價認購的方式你原民會該編的預算你要先框出來先做準備中央的政策就由中央來處理行政程序上我相信桃園市政府會非常配合啦"},{"start":5736.135,"end":5758.381,"text":"但是你如果一個中央的政策然後你要求說我還要求桃園市政府出地甚至要求桃園市政府出預算的時候本期作為桃園市的民意代表我可以告訴你地方財政其實非常吃緊建設也非常多中央的事就要由中央來出資源照顧原住民同胞大家都會配合但如果中央願意出這個資源然後願意推動這樣的政策桃園市政府如果不配合我也會帶頭"},{"start":5759.842,"end":5769.159,"text":"來要求桃園市政府配合行政流程所以我認為行政流程困難不高土地剛好有農水署我已經單位都講出來了就請原民會這邊積極來做溝通可以嗎好"},{"start":5774.138,"end":5798.58,"text":"好的好喔如果要可以無償就無償不然無償該撥經費購買架構也都可以喔這個交給你們來處理但三個月內我希望得到明確的答案再來如果您取得土地喔我也想問一下原民會現在的概念你的配套規劃的定位是什麼你要蓋合一住宅讓他們認購嗎還是說要蓋員工宿舍變成你在這邊上班你就可以長期租用是用哪一種的模式來做規劃這個還要跟他們討論嗎"},{"start":5801.488,"end":5817.533,"text":"我們跟營務會再來討論還是營務會來回答一下沒關係啊現在有想法可以回答的就回答報告委員就是我們跟桃園市政府包括園民局跟督發的單位"},{"start":5818.58,"end":5846.862,"text":"我們現在這個案也正在做討論然後可能在三個月內一定提出那當然剛才向委員提到的就是說讓員工的福利極大化我覺得能夠有員工宿舍的方案是最好那當然在之前因為我們原文會是財團法人我們並沒有那麼強的行政的協調協調的角度跟位置所以在這個部分我們會再跟原民會來做配合"},{"start":5847.633,"end":5865.838,"text":"請原民會主委要幫忙啦,你是正式的機關,人家是你下轄的一個單位,對不對?積極的橫向聯繫,你們部裡面的長官也要來協助啦,好不好?先做一個橫向串聯啦,趕快把土地的問題先解決,我希望可以看到好的員工宿舍啦,好不好?那就三個月,三個月之內我要得到明確的答案,可以嗎?好,謝謝,辛苦了。謝謝,感謝牛心凌委員的質詢,我們現在高金召委的質詢。"},{"start":5878.628,"end":5901.11,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請主委。主委,恭喜你。謝謝。你心裡準備好了嗎?做主委這個位置。準備好了。準備好了。好,那準備好了,可是呢,今天,你知道主委應該要做什麼事情嗎?原民會的業務是什麼嗎?你們簡單說明一下。"},{"start":5903.635,"end":5921.063,"text":"移民會的業務主要就是對我們整個原住民的政策的一個擬定。然後就是把這個經費來合理的分配到縣市甚至於鄉還有到我們的部落去。這個是"},{"start":5923.745,"end":5941.178,"text":"最重要的一個業務職長特別是對原住民的政策相關的很多政策必須要跟大家來討論之後由原民會來整整合整個意見提出來那知道立法院有兩個會期現在這個會期是什麼下個會期是什麼"},{"start":5944.822,"end":5971.809,"text":"現在是法案的會期下個會期應該就是預算的會期所以很重要一個是法案一個是預算對不對對好講法案好了你知道賴總統對原住民的政見有什麼嗎他對原住民的政見總括來講有七個那七個有七個就是說希望趕快就是說對這個平埔的這個認定齁能夠趕快趕快來做認定齁那還有就是這個"},{"start":5973.75,"end":5994.403,"text":"開放、參與、落實共管原住民的一些資源哪有就是希望什麼?什麼共管?就是開放還有參與落實共管自然的資源我幫你講好了好不好第一個政見是回應平埔政民運動長期以來的盼望對不對?"},{"start":5995.543,"end":6015.253,"text":"二、深化原住民自治。三、培立部落、開放、參與、落實原住民共管、自然資源、守護土地。四、強化原住民健康服務。五、雙軌制建立原住民教育體系,為台灣教育增添多元性和創新能量。"},{"start":6017.494,"end":6030.861,"text":"六、完善都市原住民族公共服務、居住權保障和參政管道。七、培育原住民族外交、文化、體育等多面人才,將原住民族故事推向國際。請問這七個你應該怎麼落實?"},{"start":6036.287,"end":6063.467,"text":"這七個第一個來講就是比較擠的就是那個南島語系的這個企德原住民的身份因為這個是憲法已經判決了那我們希望在期限內那你知道平埔族的人數有多少人嗎大約是這個98萬多啦好那這98萬裡面呢未來會面臨到什麼問題如果他們的身份別已經被認定的話你知道會有面臨什麼問題嗎"},{"start":6065.871,"end":6087.005,"text":"最重要是他們的語言還有他們的文化都流失的很快不僅僅這個喔原民會主委要做的事情要盤點非常多的事情你知道嗎是比如說你們列舉一下會影響到現在既有的什麼預算的部分也會影響到啦好那你應該怎麼爭取預算"},{"start":6089.266,"end":6110.9,"text":"98萬人口的話那應該跟行政院主計處主計總處怎麼樣爭取預算你有沒有想過然後未來他的社會福利和教育輔助你想過嗎還有最重要的是土地的問題如果按照傳統領域的話要怎麼樣增化邊緣保地"},{"start":6115.973,"end":6136.48,"text":"所以你告訴我你在今天的第一大項就是說你希望在這個9月底把法律草案函報行政院審查11月底要通過行政院會函送大院來審議你連這麼多幾個簡單的大項都不知道請問你要怎麼樣送啊"},{"start":6138.001,"end":6145.971,"text":"我會在很快的時間很快是多久你已經告訴我們了跟會裡面跟會裡面會裡面的誰會裡面的誰處裡面處裡面的誰就是我們這個負責的中規處這裡中規處"},{"start":6155.1,"end":6169.574,"text":"還有最重要的是還要跟地方政府還要跟這個鄉所以三個月之內你可以解決嗎?可以提出來嗎?所以朱惠美在這邊建議你喔以後在這邊回答問題要小心喔因為你在這邊回答的問題都會列入公報"},{"start":6170.455,"end":6170.836,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":6185.857,"end":6214.696,"text":"在這邊有非常多的問題原民的問題需要你要一肩扛起來啊我真的有點擔心欸因為剛剛有非常多的委員問到你非常多的問題你都沒有辦法具體的回答我都不知道您在你的業務範圍之內不僅僅是在原民會喔你還要跟其他的會其他的部會要橫向聯繫欸你看到沒有今天我在這邊安排了幾個重要有幾個部會來你知道嗎"},{"start":6217.688,"end":6223.394,"text":"十三十三個到十四個部會對所以這幾個部會你都有去拜訪過嗎你都有告訴他你這個總統賴總統的七大政見嗎"},{"start":6228.564,"end":6256.34,"text":"還沒有好了所以呢您剛告訴我說你準備好了主委你沒有準備好所以今天我們也不曉得該怎麼詢問您因為本席是原住民立法委員我不太願意在這邊讓我們自己的原住民的族人為難也不願意讓我們族人看到主委您在這邊出糗所以我有很多問題問不下去但是有幾個問題齁我還要請這個其他出來報告一下"},{"start":6257.741,"end":6261.183,"text":"第一個就是我們的老委會教文處教文處請您上來一下您知道我們現在教文處我們有非常多的課後輔導的老師他們在這個基本工資還不達到老委會在今年核定的工資費用你看到了嗎我給你公文了沒有你們的回應是什麼"},{"start":6287.813,"end":6288.934,"text":"現在請問一下我們的這個輔導員的工作津貼現在是多少錢"},{"start":6301.446,"end":6313.911,"text":"你們根本沒有依照勞委會在1月1號今年公布的實行調整,你們照理說應該馬上就要來調整,你們給我公文是什麼?主委這要不要處理一下?什麼時候處理?是等你簽合嗎?還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":6329.583,"end":6335.546,"text":"現在在簽還沒看到我還沒看到誰沒有看到你還沒有看到那為什麼這麼久沒有我四月份就跟你公文了叫文處你們到底會不會無縫接軌啊我很擔心你們的行政業務沒有辦法無縫接軌耶委員報告我們現在已經正在簽合當中要"},{"start":6347.751,"end":6376.204,"text":"要怎麼樣?你跟我們所有的這個教育工作者說一下你要怎麼處理?我們會比照這個教育部的夜光天使的計畫追溯到今年的1月1號來這個符合最低的這個基本薪資最低工資是多少?最低工資我們是用中點費來計算是183元對嘛,這是老委會公布的嘛那你現在工資是多少?大概167元左右好,差了多少?"},{"start":6376.954,"end":6377.474,"text":"主委,我在這邊還要交代您"},{"start":6400.676,"end":6429.008,"text":"有幾件事情你一定要做第一個事情呢就是希望未來我們審預算的時候每一個預算別都要清楚知道你們要做些什麼可以嗎好可以齁可以緊接著就馬上要審你的預算了你的預算科目績效指標預期達到的效應這些相關的事項都要很清楚的告訴我可以嗎可以你講可以喔我可以我可以要求可以要求齁好那什麼時候會給我們"},{"start":6430.905,"end":6457.857,"text":"你們大概三個月來回答一下我們按照規定到這個每年的8月31號會送立法院那我們到時候這個預算是送達的時候我們再請相關的補充說明再提供給委員做參考那大概什麼時候主委清不清楚知道我們就馬上要審預算了知道知道嗎那原民會的預算有多少"},{"start":6466.035,"end":6482.706,"text":"111公務預算請問一下原民會你上任之前有沒有跟我們原民會的各處來討論一下你們的業務有那為什麼今天你回答都回答不出來"},{"start":6485.419,"end":6487.901,"text":"有做檢要的報告了做檢要的報告今天也要來做業務說明耶"},{"start":6514.266,"end":6530.498,"text":"主委請你加油努力好不好好吧我只有說加油努力啦期望你趕快趕上進度不過我很擔心就是說未來原民會的業務到底能不能夠無縫接軌"},{"start":6531.318,"end":6545.241,"text":"行政上面會不會順暢,這個都是你要去做的,我們都不談賴總統的七大政見,只是行政業務的順暢銜接,可能你都要花很多的時間來努力了。好,謝謝委員。好,加油,謝謝。謝謝,我們感謝高金召委,我們請黃姐委員質詢。"},{"start":6564.359,"end":6567.509,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席 我們請曾主委要曾主委"},{"start":6572.85,"end":6597.304,"text":"我很好好 謝謝先恭喜主委就任希望接下來還有很多事情我們要一起努力首先我想要請教一下主委知道說最近我們立法院都在討論有三個跟花東然後跟可能會經過花東的三個法案包括環島高鐵、國道6號、東延還有花東快不知道主委知不知道知道"},{"start":6598.925,"end":6608.195,"text":"這三個法案我們原民會有沒有相關的業務會經過你們的評估?不知道你們內部有沒有先行討論了呢?這三個法案"},{"start":6613.305,"end":6631.862,"text":"應該要經過原住民的部落或者是說希望要開發原住民的土地的話必須要這個取得原住民部落的諮商的同意沒錯這就是我想要知道的因為這三個法案現在就是大家也估算說經費的需求超過兩兆"},{"start":6633.403,"end":6650.589,"text":"那要求我們行政機關要在10年內蓋完可是因為這些法案到目前都還沒有實質的討論也沒有任何的評估就已經被全案保留送出交通委員會並且排入到院會準備二三讀的議程了只是到現在還沒有審到"},{"start":6652.23,"end":6674.907,"text":"那之前交通部其實也有評估過說像花東塊至少會經過11個原民的部落那甚至也會經過像剛剛主委說的有非常多是包括原住民族部落的傳統領域也有可能會徵收到原住民族的土地才能完成的甚至呢對於部落的環境"},{"start":6676.228,"end":6700.772,"text":"臺灣土地的生態都可能造成劇烈的衝擊所以我想要請教的是主委你們現在原民會有沒有經過這些像是這11個原民的部落可能受到影響的衝擊的居民有沒有已經是就是大概幫他們評估一下怎麼保障他們接下來發表意見甚至是法律上的權益呢書刑處長來說明"},{"start":6704.54,"end":6730.701,"text":"好那針對這個可能會影響到的11個部落那這個部分我們會去協助他們就是說去讓他們了解說整個慈山同義要怎麼樣去進行因為有很多部落他其實對這個部分非常的陌生沒錯這就是我們擔心的在部落們都還非常陌生甚至都還不清楚的情況下這個這三個法就已經被送到院會甚至被排入議程了"},{"start":6731.98,"end":6754.999,"text":"所以我想要講的是現在其實我們原基法裡面有明定這樣的精神如果政府要在原住民族的土地或是部落或是周邊的一定範圍內要從事任何土地的開發公共的開發必須要經諮商並且取得原住民族或是部落的同意並且參與並且跟原住民族來分享相關的利益這個在你們業務報告裡面其實也有提到說接下來我們應該要來"},{"start":6758.802,"end":6777.235,"text":"來修這個諮商取得原住民族部落的同意的參與辦法那當然我很肯定只是說現在像是這三個法就已經迫在眉睫囉那現在我們如果有任何原住民族相關的會影響到他們權益的拜託我們原民會一定要做第一層的把關好嗎好"},{"start":6779.931,"end":6805.047,"text":"因為我希望說像是在這三案裡面現在主人的立場是什麼然後你們原民會的角色是什麼一定都要積極的發聲不要讓原住民族的土地正義在這種多數暴力的情況下被強行碾壓那再來提到一下今天的這個法我想要請教的是因為其實我們現在都有在做相關的都是原住民族的發展的政策對嗎"},{"start":6807.248,"end":6822.314,"text":"對然後你們就你們的這個業務報告裡面有提到我們有一些相關的相關的發展的方案報告對嗎對那我們現在定這個發展的條例跟這個發展的方案之間是如何搭配的"},{"start":6823.454,"end":6836.661,"text":"也就是說我想知道的是我們現在訂這個法的用意以及他接下來若真的要施行到底對於發展的方案上面是有什麼具體的幫助以及什麼樣的法律授權"},{"start":6838.855,"end":6853.523,"text":"這個定這個都市的這個發展條例最主要是在55個鄉以外的都會尤其是超過1500個人涉及超過1500個人的原住民的話會有更就是說更明確的這個照顧了"},{"start":6854.904,"end":6873.034,"text":"因為像很多在原鄉施行的計畫沒有辦法在這個都會區來做照顧比如說在都會區裡面要蓋聚會所啦或者是一些相關語言文化的設施他必須要有這樣的一個法以後會對原住民更明確"},{"start":6874.909,"end":6883.178,"text":"二、審查法一定會衝擊縣市政府、鄉國所、甚至部落。希望跟完備討論。希望草案趕快討論,跟委員提出來的案一起討論會更完備。"},{"start":6895.711,"end":6919.64,"text":"好,所以現在大家在問的是還沒看到院板對嗎?是那你們院板現在在哪裡?什麼時候要送進來?是不是應該要一起來討論才可以把彼此之間的衝突更完備呢?好,目前我所知道那個信息就是說還在跟地方政府有一些比較細的部分還在跟他們做討論討論好的時候我們的草案就會提出來"},{"start":6920.708,"end":6947.238,"text":"好 所以現在所以大概什麼時候才會送願版因為現在我們已經有四個委員的版本了已經在這裡了那也準備要實質審查了可是還是沒有看到願版那既然我們實質要施行上還有更多要跟地方政府討論的部分是不是你們也給一個時程大家才知道說接下來我們到底具體收攏這個意見才可以送出這個版本嗎"},{"start":6947.998,"end":6972.283,"text":"我們會盡快開公聽會,然後來提出我們的版本。好,我支持啊,我覺得這個公聽會應該要開,因為這個攸關地方政府嘛,所以其實應該要到各個縣市有受到影響的地方政府跟他們做實質的討論,對嗎?是。好,那希望我們這個公聽會趕快來促成,然後趕快把最後的院版訂案好嗎?好。好,謝謝主委。"},{"start":6975.987,"end":6976.247,"text":"王美惠"},{"start":6988.533,"end":7000.638,"text":"主席、主委、主委、不要緊張、不要緊張。主委,本席提供的策略,在內政的時候,我們有姓名條例,在這裡面本席特別質詢說,如果我們原住民的同仁,所有要如何恢復傳統的姓名,應該是,"},{"start":7018.615,"end":7023.278,"text":"演繹一個最好的方法：包括外境：一層的服務：是不是合併名：還要免納這些經費：在條文當中提供的實施：我們這個條文已經在三度通過了主委你知道這個過程是要讓我們的原住民"},{"start":7048.697,"end":7059.253,"text":"的方便又讓他們不用負擔要多錢的費用嗎?來,主委你知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":7063.995,"end":7076.921,"text":"我向委員報告,代表我們這個換這個證明換身分證,這個我們都有辨明措施,措施已經都有。是啦,我現在要問你,你知道嗎?我知道啦。你知道嘛,來,你知道啦。剛才本市長在下課,聽到他說0304,我們就在我們原住民的家裡,"},{"start":7091.69,"end":7092.331,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":7110.473,"end":7117.898,"text":"救災等於救治啦!在這裏面,你又說高飛會受損的時候,這個經費,你的報告是六月中旬。"},{"start":7123.507,"end":7124.147,"text":"來,你回答一下。"},{"start":7149.855,"end":7153.519,"text":"老闆娘報告,這個0403發展這個政宅,這個稿費也好,還是那個部落的賭路也好,我們都有內含這個公所,跟這個管政部協助。沒有啦,我現在要告訴你,你可以做這樣嗎?"},{"start":7166.938,"end":7184.727,"text":"來啦!可以做這樣嗎?報告委員,其實本來現在各公所本來就設立單一倉庫在受理,因為就近公所,他直接跟公所受理就可以了。不是啦!我現在的意思就是說,跟我們有事要關住民國,不知道要怎麼辦,要怎麼做啦!"},{"start":7186.528,"end":7187.749,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":7217.634,"end":7225.679,"text":"來,你是不是很了解,來來來,主席,什麼人很了解回答一下,可能他聽不到我的意思,便民,公安局的便民,你們聽到沒有啦,當地的原住民,要租金要做什麼,直接去來協助啦"},{"start":7236.966,"end":7244.769,"text":"對喔!我現在的做法就是這樣啊!做法這樣?不是喔!我剛才在外面叫你問的是,你們要跟原住民的人上街去公訴申請咧!我現在的意思是,你們原住民裡面的人像之前在你全國可以讓他們這樣處理啦!"},{"start":7261.645,"end":7282.431,"text":"好,我們現在的做法就是,我們知道人在哪裡,我們就派人去看,看他們的行情什麼。我的意思是說,你派人去看的時候,他的資料都很有啊,是要怎麼領埋他的資料,你不怎麼拿去審查,他有三天啦。對啊,我看了報告的行情,把他送走啊。"},{"start":7283.331,"end":7295.239,"text":"這沒有問題阿沒有問題喔對對好沒有問題喔要趕緊走喔我們現在正在做喔現在在做對可是他剛才說的不是現在在做的喔再來在這樣發生的時候像你們這樣說的當時可以站到他們的手上可以去他們使用"},{"start":7309.206,"end":7316.3,"text":"呃...只...這部分我會跟新...地方政府協調他的行政處要快...加快一點啦加多快重快重速重進問題是在上面還是在上面"},{"start":7318.799,"end":7344.516,"text":"在地方?在地方?對那地方不是國警說要救災救災?還說要現骨?還說要挖骨?零四零三今天已經三十多萬公尺三十了勒?我跟委員報告比方說教會修繕我們禮拜我們明天會開說明會開了說明會我們現場的領據請他簽一簽之後我們就辦理好,那你還要背什麼那收儲的壓勒?"},{"start":7348.422,"end":7360.016,"text":"修繕部分的話,也就是他如果說我們到現場現刊,現刊如果符合資格,我們把簡化的表格都簡化了。簡化只要有照片。我知那樣,簡化那個我知那樣。對。齁?對。當時有一次,"},{"start":7366.449,"end":7366.809,"text":"現在我講的是這樣"},{"start":7393.004,"end":7405.579,"text":"對啊,包委員,我們這部分我們會加速來辦啦。加速?啊加速多久?對,請花蓮縣政府要進一層書館那個行政程序來做處理。"},{"start":7408.358,"end":7418.347,"text":"我認為,說到去申勞名,我所說的就是,百姓受災害,冠軍愛職,不是說跟你們爭取,你們也要替百姓去法輪劍戶堆,這個職位到底當時要來嗎?這才是目的,這才是要緊啊!"},{"start":7432.987,"end":7444.998,"text":"五、在本市經濟資訊上有說到如果我們搬走的時候,我們可以願意給他一個緩衝三個月,您現在討論得如何來?來,還是盲盲的,盲你自己說,盲盲的就賣一個啦,不可以退我們的財政。包委員,對不起,我剛剛沒有聽出緩衝什麼業務。"},{"start":7458.097,"end":7464.101,"text":"我們是不是要表示,我如果你們接受的話,你們都沒有討論啊。你們要去討論的時候,你們想要讓他們可以有幾個月,有幾個月,但是在台北,在哪裡,要去討論的時候,不一定可以啦。"},{"start":7481.482,"end":7506.203,"text":"我又知道你的業務,我又想說你沒錢了。那個沒有三個月的緩衝期。沒辦法,還是怎樣?還是還要研議?三個月,以前我拿去說要有三個月的緩衝期,讓他們考慮一下。對,那個部分沒有問題,就是在他們的協助裡面就要放這個緩衝期。好來,沒問題來。主席還有一個問題給我。"},{"start":7510.308,"end":7530.957,"text":"來,主委,我要請問一下,您保護館要去哪裡?台獨外列的工作報告?高雄的陳清湖。哦,高雄的陳清湖。再來,您的集會所,您如果說高麗,來選對選的人要來請來,那您如果要去集會所,多少人可以去?多少人你要去?"},{"start":7542.043,"end":7548.225,"text":"希望在一千五百人以上希望啦齁,這樣啦,我針對高利貸啦,你講,現在沒有一個高利貸1280倍的,又欠兩百十二個、五千五個啊,你一位所要去的時候,你有哪個高利貸有參選過嗎?"},{"start":7562.642,"end":7576.892,"text":"您的做法是要原住民的婚禮照顧好好的不是原住民住在山的原住民都一直來郭國瑜來市來選我您是要啦!市來也要購!山也要購!這個是有作為有單單的主委啊!"},{"start":7587.489,"end":7604.166,"text":"若請你這麼做的事,說得沒保人啊!主委,你這個研議者,看了差不多一禮拜的信,給我一個書面,以上。好,我問報告,我們今天看過,嘉義市民政局我們會主動來協助啊,我們看過啊。"},{"start":7608.229,"end":7608.77,"text":"好 謝謝美匯委員的質詢 謝謝"},{"start":7635.987,"end":7654.157,"text":"好來繼續我們請李博義委員質詢請曾主委喝口水謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":7661.044,"end":7670.171,"text":"剛剛其實有官員做了一個不太好的示範可能我們美會委員寬宏大量沒有說要移送反質詢的部分"},{"start":7671.965,"end":7697.943,"text":"主委聽了你的報告那知道你原本從屏東從山地門那可以來為台灣原住民來原住民族來做事我覺得要給你一些力量但是也要給你一點時間那但是你的報告裡面我發現你充滿信心的有兩塊我這樣聽起來第一塊就是對於原住民博物館的進度"},{"start":7698.874,"end":7714.605,"text":"原住民博物館的進度你剛剛的報告裡面是在2032年要完成要營運上一個原民會的主委從2016年到2024年任期8年2032年到從今天開始算到2032年也是8年"},{"start":7722.31,"end":7735.47,"text":"這8年你必須要做的事情除了把原民博物館把它完成營運之外中間過程還有很多的挑戰包含你剛剛說的平埔族的正名"},{"start":7736.26,"end":7765.408,"text":"平埔的正名剛剛張宏祿委員講得非常精彩把這個平埔族的這個文化等等的這個界定等等的都有太太多太廣泛的事情要做那我想這個也不是你一時之間可以急著那你剛剛也在回應的時候有講出這個20世紀就日治時期的一個研究報告我想跟"},{"start":7766.158,"end":7791.343,"text":"目前我們真正的要去調查平譜的這些不管是文化或者是族人或者是身份或者是界定等等的都有非常非常大的不同那所以我想主委的這個要面對的挑戰很多之外呢那我在這邊也建議主委齁其實這8年如果有信心做這8年"},{"start":7793.069,"end":7812.997,"text":"中間有很多關於原住民權益的問題包含我們今天準備要來討論的這個涉及在平地都會的原住民的權益要不要涉相關的條例來維護他們的權益的等等的問題我想在委員會裡面也有資深"},{"start":7816.118,"end":7839.766,"text":"你剛剛說你22年有資深的這些委員不斷的在提出原住民這些進步的方案那也有包含陳寅委員吳立華委員不斷的在提出原住民的這些權益的方案等等都是主委你要跟得上的主委那就你剛剛的這一個我剛剛這樣講你有沒有信心做8年你有沒有準備要做8年"},{"start":7841.656,"end":7844.298,"text":"原住民博物館最重要的精神是什麼?"},{"start":7867.606,"end":7886.365,"text":"希望推動他未來原住民博物館營運之後你希望他可以帶來什麼樣的這些效益希望他是一個臺灣第一座的這個國家級的原住民博物館以國家的這個高度來不要看稿念跟我講好就是希望他以這個這個臺灣的高度來"},{"start":7890.868,"end":7915.247,"text":"國立原住民博物館做好我們不希望它只是台灣的原住民博物館它更是南島羽族的博物館因為我們台灣的很多的文物我們去我們的友好國家去看不管是帛琉不管到東馬不管到紐西蘭都有很多我們的文物已經流到那邊去了那現在我們希望說把台灣的一些文物還有的文物"},{"start":7916.388,"end":7932.237,"text":"沒有的話就跟部落來做借展那我們原住民文化園區就已經有這個在那邊收藏1375件的文物這個準備就是直接將來無縫接軌到原住民博物館甚至以原住民博物館的人才"},{"start":7932.757,"end":7957.345,"text":"也就是說在這個將來要做原住民博物館的業務的人現在也已經我們都已經在受信請我們臺灣4個大的博物館比如說臺博館還有這個死錢館來協助人也在信念我們不是說8年後才開始信念我們都已經準備好了主委我想給你一個建議你剛剛講的其實都是物"},{"start":7958.462,"end":7982.183,"text":"那我給你一個建議高雄市政府曾經高雄市政府曾經要在蓋流行音樂中心之前他做了哪一些事情他做了舉辦很多這個動態型的包含音樂會包含展覽包含活動等等的其實這一個流行音樂中心興建的期間也有可能是8年"},{"start":7983.044,"end":7997.33,"text":"但是這8年期間高雄市政府他也孕育出非常非常多的活動包含大港開唱包含非常多的音樂祭都在這8年期間新建的期間去舉辦我想"},{"start":7998.951,"end":8021.516,"text":"原博物館他帶來的不會只有您剛講的文物等等我希望他還是包含原住民相關動態的活動等等的那不斷的舉辦不斷的吸引不斷的讓有興趣的人來對原住民博物館的這個關注我覺得這個原民會也可以朝這個方向來努力主委是"},{"start":8023.157,"end":8050.511,"text":"謝謝那另外呢有關於平地原住民已經涉及在平地原住民的部分目前已經超過整個原住民人數的一半了是不是是那如果要朝向這一個來修訂這個平地原住民涉及平地原住民的這些這個條例的權益的話其實跟地方政府有非常非常大的相關在這邊也要建議我們主委"},{"start":8051.528,"end":8078.31,"text":"所有有關縣市政府的這些一定要去走訪一定要去聽取大家的意見之外那這些地方的公聽會我想也是必須要去聽取的這個是主委刻不容緩馬上要做的事情現在雖然今天是你上任的第11天但是我們沒有時間等待希望主委趕快按部就班趕快去做好每一件事情謝謝"},{"start":8080.885,"end":8101.852,"text":"好 謝謝李博義委員的質詢 謝謝 謝謝主委不會 我覺得今天的委員大家都非常的善良也對主委釋出非常多的善意所以希望主委今天回去了之後趕快加緊你的腳步趕快瞭解一下原民會裡面的業務好嗎 謝謝繼續我們請黃仁委員質詢"},{"start":8115.137,"end":8135.518,"text":"有請曾主委,謝謝主席。好,有請曾主委。各位,恭喜你上任。但是我不認識你,因為你也從來沒有來見我。第二個,你認為這個位置可以讓你可以待多久?"},{"start":8138.547,"end":8158.193,"text":"我來跟委員報告我就沒有想過要待多久我來要做事情不是要守護這個位置你現在在你不要把屏東鄉公所或是屏東的園民處當作是中央園民會這個思維你要改變"},{"start":8159.502,"end":8161.062,"text":"今天我要講的我們是以專業取勝今天"},{"start":8189.335,"end":8217.067,"text":"你要針對全國原住民的事物跟他的生存前包含他要延續他的生命跟歷史這個責任在你身上現在我們是屬於南島語系的民族裡面現在反觀我們整個南島語系的民族我們有2.5億的人口在看你你不能把我們原住民當笑話"},{"start":8219.255,"end":8237.747,"text":"當笑話我現在跟你講一下剛剛我們很多委員問你一問三不知你上來應該心理上就有所準備你既然歷練了20年在地方為原住民的事務都已經在做了應該駕輕就熟"},{"start":8241.008,"end":8266.537,"text":"可是大家很多委員問你什麼都一問不知所以現在我要告訴你是原住民的議題裡面今天是一個非常關鍵而且在國際認同我們臺灣甚至聯合國在臺灣是一個少數民族的夥伴關係也是屬於列入觀察員你要記得"},{"start":8267.777,"end":8290.681,"text":"今天你所言一句都是對原住民有相關未來要向下沉淪還是要向上提升向上提升這個是你現在要擔任主委的一個關鍵我看到你的這個報告裡面所以"},{"start":8291.704,"end":8292.565,"text":"二、審查二、審查"},{"start":8312.048,"end":8339.126,"text":"我們現在看的是你的未來的施政重點也就是我們賴總統的施政重點裡面平衡組的身份權包含民主自治跟自然資源共管強化健康服務雙軌教育體系及都會原權的這個福利及多領域人才培育及持續深化打造"},{"start":8341.068,"end":8349.559,"text":"這個貼近原住民族的這個不是很深化深入對原住民未來的發展"},{"start":8350.748,"end":8376.853,"text":"今天在都會區裡面現在已經有將近五成都在都會區裡面應該在涉入一體叫居住正義你能不能跟總統跟賴總統講一下你未來的施政裡面居住正義是一個針對都會區的發展這是一個非常重要的你能不能告訴給總統注入居住正義這一塊你回答我"},{"start":8389.663,"end":8404.35,"text":"因為現在是急迫性為什麼現在房價不斷的在增長我們很多的年輕人很多的原住民包含都會區的這些家人"},{"start":8406.806,"end":8435.76,"text":"要買房子不容易現在要取得土地現在很多在都會區的原住民對居住正義的渴望跟需求有多麼重要知道居住正義這一塊是在整個你們的施政方向裡面雖然每一項都非常的重要"},{"start":8436.44,"end":8454.173,"text":"可是目前急迫性的就是居住正義在都會區裡面如何解決他們的居住的問題這就是你最大的一個難題也是要突破的一個問題所以這個就是你現在要用用心的現在我不講"},{"start":8455.305,"end":8474.77,"text":"不講這些未來的建設什麼 下一次我好好的要問你那我希望你趕快進入狀況 趕快進入狀況未來的施政的方向 尤其在都會區我在都會區將近30年 我了解都會區的心聲"},{"start":8476.19,"end":8504.529,"text":"當然我們在整個鄉鎮他們急迫性的除了我們的土地正義之外第二個就是我們如何在循環經濟裡面產生它的觀光產業包含放寬原住民族屬於自己的原保地能夠放寬多功能使用這就是目前你要突破的議題為什麼"},{"start":8506.212,"end":8507.882,"text":"土地是我們的母親"},{"start":8509.164,"end":8536.781,"text":"既然政府在原基法裡面已經富裕給我們的保障你就好好的這一些原基法裡面好好的深化深耕把這一些一一的落實不要只是一個書面包含文字遊戲一起把我們原住民毀搖到現在都還不清楚歷史的回歸"},{"start":8538.511,"end":8562.682,"text":"歷史的回歸也應該要給我們真正正式原住民的土地的正義既然原基法裡面保障我們的話那你就好好的一個一個的落實屬於原保地有自己的原住民的原保地應該除了不破壞這個零物用地包含山坡地包含水源地之外"},{"start":8565.383,"end":8589.61,"text":"應該複製給他更大的使用管理辦法土地的使用管理辦法能夠放寬能夠放寬讓他有一個來自循環經濟他能夠去使用屬於像自己的私人的土地一樣使用這就是你要思考的地方我會不斷的問你的進度如何推展"},{"start":8591.031,"end":8611.251,"text":"這是國人現在目前最急迫性對原保地的管理辦法跟放寬使用辦法裡面本席已經提出這個所謂土地的放寬使用我們在土地裡面主席謝謝再給我幾分鐘接一分鐘就好"},{"start":8612.284,"end":8635.757,"text":"我們既然我們在原住民的傳統領域的土砂包含我們的漂流木漂流木跟土石在傳統領域天災遇到天災之後應該有原住民優先的來採用來採用列為他的砂石銀行這就是"},{"start":8636.497,"end":8663.614,"text":"本來呼籲給我們的原基法裡面在我的傳統領域這個土砂裡面流失的話也應該給原住民做殺死銀行造就原住民的經濟這才是你現在的重點好以上謝謝主席好謝謝黃榮委員的質詢謝謝謝謝曾主委對繼續我們請吳清明召委吳清明召委質詢後我們休息5分鐘好不好可以嗎請問一下在場委員可以齁好謝謝"},{"start":8666.438,"end":8667.339,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8682.205,"end":8708.699,"text":"主委恭喜你來擔任我們原住民委員會的主委那我們的今年我們所編列的預算也超乎了過去的所有的預算今年編列了111億這是歷年來最高的這也要感謝我們原住民的委員以及我們的召委他們的用心爭取"},{"start":8711.902,"end":8713.423,"text":"原住民在渡費期內比例超過一半。"},{"start":8725.953,"end":8742.424,"text":"未來宴景部分現在很多都落在都會期都會期我們要怎樣來照顧我們原住民不管是就業也好不管我們的孩童的就學也好我們要怎樣讓他們有一個"},{"start":8744.605,"end":8746.165,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8765.049,"end":8765.229,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":8782.216,"end":8782.616,"text":"新北市公有地提撥公有地"},{"start":8812.372,"end":8835.109,"text":"原住民委員會籌劃與新北市合作蓋基會所讓族人有很好的空間這是我長期在推動所以原住民生態公園做好了有空到那邊去看一下那你看未來我們的基金會是不是"},{"start":8836.07,"end":8865.001,"text":"找一個適當的地點我們來推動我們的集會所好的那你的看法呢可不可行因為你那個地方就符合我們現在的一些相關的這個補助的規定但是土地的部分的一定要解決就是希望土地他不是有爭議或者是有沒有土地一定要公家的土地是對你原住民你要變預算你土層那個地段那麼貴也買不起啊是"},{"start":8865.542,"end":8865.844,"text":"好,對不對?那,因為我們"},{"start":8870.287,"end":8896.417,"text":"原住民委員會你要跟新北市新北市也有原民籍嘛是對不對你要跟他主動的跟他們接洽是不是在我們土城找一個適當的地點來蓋一個聚會所這樣你才能落實來照顧到我們所有的原住民在我們的都會區裡面讓他們有一個很好的空間這是我們大家共同的期待吧好"},{"start":8898.778,"end":8919.897,"text":"像我9月吧我每年都會辦一個紫風車嘛我紫風車裡面還是針對我們原住民的語言來做先導因為畢竟在那邊很多原住民的小朋友他們也是很喜歡看這個紫風車到時候我會邀請主委我們一起來參加好不好好"},{"start":8921.414,"end":8945.692,"text":"因為主委其實我們原住民早期你看在基層我們都可以看得到他們跟我們平地的還是有點落差那我們就你看我們所有的原住民的委員大家這幾年真的也是付出很多替原住民爭取了非常多那我們都要去珍惜我們未來我們原住民"},{"start":8947.313,"end":8965.715,"text":"該做的我們都是會全力來配合所以我們的法條所設定的我們制定的一定要說更捉眼讓我們後來後續要推動會更加的順暢這是我們大家共同的期待因為原住民的權益我們都會支持"},{"start":8967.301,"end":8967.401,"text":"主席"},{"start":9000.749,"end":9008.553,"text":"我看你們都蠻緊張的啊因為你們從新成立起來的都很有經驗啊我看你們也是很記憶"},{"start":9027.004,"end":9028.405,"text":"好、好、好"},{"start":9050.561,"end":9053.124,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":9066.001,"end":9066.441,"text":"四、審查"},{"start":9091.309,"end":9101.303,"text":"三、審查三、審查"},{"start":9105.698,"end":9110.202,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":9142.259,"end":9155.263,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":9162.204,"end":9164.366,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":9182.618,"end":9185.099,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":9200.726,"end":9201.166,"text":"三、審查三、審查"},{"start":9339.057,"end":9347.645,"text":"好,謝謝。我們請所有的官員回到位置上。我們要繼續開會了。繼續我們請徐宇貞委員來質詢。謝謝主席。我們請曾主委。好,我們請曾主委。"},{"start":9368.427,"end":9397.428,"text":"好 曾主委我想請教你關於原住民族的自治法你在你的書面報告裡提到對第5頁有提到行政院曾經5次送請立法院審議皆無法獲至共識逐漸推動原住民族自治法的艱鉅請問主委民進黨過去8年有沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案到立法院審議沒有跟委員報告 沒有沒有 為什麼"},{"start":9401.181,"end":9409.812,"text":"因為你報告不是寫曾經5次嗎?但是過去8年民進黨一次都沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案,為什麼?"},{"start":9410.663,"end":9436.954,"text":"後來沒有事,因為就改用婚留立法的這個方式來進行。好,我想請教一下,賴清德總統說他會找原住民社會各界一起討論,並找出最好的做法讓原住民落實自治。那原住民族基本法的第4條也有明訂。請問一下,你們什麼時候要跟原住民社會各界討論?何時可以提出原住民自治法的草案,送交立法院審議?"},{"start":9438.035,"end":9463.194,"text":"跟委員報告原住民自治是真的是不容易但是至少到目前為止我們有先找幾個組像比如講這個太魯閣跟這個盧凱先做討論他們比較容易取得共識的這個族群是不是要來先做那我們目前這兩個組也正在也討論的算是比較有一點點這個進度的這兩個部落"},{"start":9466.376,"end":9484.301,"text":"總共要跟多少族討論?我們陸續會跟16族來討論,像亞美的部分,亞美還有北南。那如果以這個速度來算,過去8年你現在跟兩個族討論,那這樣的話才要多久的時間才有可能討論完?"},{"start":9488.959,"end":9517.218,"text":"我們盡快來完成幾個族群因為我知道主委剛上任那我剛剛也聽了很多委員質詢主委是很勇於任事所以你都一直講盡快盡快但是盡快的意思就是沒有一個時程所以還是希望說主委這邊還是要我們覺得原民會還是要定出一個時程還有你剛剛提到的分流立法因為其實以分流立法來說目前"},{"start":9518.098,"end":9542.175,"text":"我們看到的是原住民因為其實像原住民基本法第20條有規定就是原住民也希望政府能夠早一點制定原住民族土地跟海域法就是依據你分流立法的一個概念一直說可以這個保障分流立法可以保障原住民土地跟海域的權益但是你們分流分到最後現在原住民族土地跟海域法有制定嗎還沒有"},{"start":9545.035,"end":9563.338,"text":"還沒有還沒有嗎對所以說你們現在是不想制定這個法案還是賴清德總統的想法還是朱偉寧的想法我們會會啦這邊我們還會還會討論不會不會不會因為剛剛你講到分流立法的一個概念嗎"},{"start":9563.959,"end":9580.444,"text":"可是我們現在看到是分流立法分到最後到最後什麼法都沒定所以其實應該是要回到原住民的自治法這個部分不要再用分流立法的方式因為其實分流立法到最後到目前為止還是什麼都沒制定是"},{"start":9581.892,"end":9597.34,"text":"那請主委這個部分要回去要審慎的這個考慮那另外主委您在報告的第1頁就說要依據憲法法庭判決的結果完成原住民身份法的修法或另訂專法"},{"start":9598.74,"end":9617.529,"text":"讓平埔族可以取得原住民的身份。憲法法庭給的期限是114年10月27日前要完成。請問原民會目前是朝著原住民身份法的修法還是制定專法來處理?我們是朝制定專法來進行。"},{"start":9619.315,"end":9636.97,"text":"那既然要朝制定專法來這個進行的話那我們知道嘛剛剛也有很多委員提到對於我們原住民產生的衝擊非常的大不管是各方面那接下來我也要跟主委探討如何保障平地原住民跟山地原住民的權益"},{"start":9637.651,"end":9657.245,"text":"因為賴清德總統去年曾經請原民會要審慎的評估還有積極的處理平埔族正名之後的後續的法制工作讓平埔族的身份認同感獲得保障而且也要依據各原住民族客觀的需求國家資源的分配為原則"},{"start":9658.206,"end":9680.251,"text":"回復平埔族獲得民族身份之後的相關權利請問一下主委您剛剛有提到平埔族的人數現在大概是98萬人那目前3地原住民和平地原住民加起來是59萬人所以說平埔族取得原住民的身份之後既有的資源會不會被稀釋"},{"start":9682.355,"end":9706.936,"text":"我們是先讓這個平埔取得原住民的身份那至於潛力跟義務我們後續再來還有還要再做一些這個因為剛剛提到的這個人數的比例你會知道原來的山園跟平原加起來是59萬平埔除就有98萬了所以說如果以這樣的一個資源分配的話很難去不去稀釋到原來我們的這個原住民的一些資源"},{"start":9707.617,"end":9726.678,"text":"而且依照這個蔡賴清德總統的邏輯,平埔族取得原住民的身份之後,那個主委認為原民會的預算要增加多少才夠用?差不多,如果是這樣的話,我們大概可能要到200億了。對啊,那200億的這個預算要從哪裡來?"},{"start":9733.627,"end":9758.957,"text":"我是跟業裡面來做報告依法來編這樣的一個預算所以這個都目前都還不知道的狀況之下那主委第一個要推動的就是平樸處的這個證明原住民身份法所以都還沒有經過審慎的評估那如果你現在說經過預算要增加200億那這會排擠到其他的預算這個部分其實可能都沒有辦法像主委講的這麼的這麼的圓滿然後我現在因為想要證明"},{"start":9761.918,"end":9790.627,"text":"平埔族所以我後續的問題都可以就是自然的解決我覺得這個都要審慎的評估而不是一味的說我先來推動讓他們證明那證明之後後續就是面臨到這麼多的問題資源的問題預算的問題還有請教一下我們的這個原住民的這個原住民保留地要真是不是可以他們可是不是也可以購買了這個只有原住民才可以購買原住民保留地對那平埔族呢可不可以購買"},{"start":9792.348,"end":9815.909,"text":"這個還沒有討論到所以說我就是點出幾個問題啦我現在只是只是點出這兩個問題可能都已經很自愛難行了所以說這個問題只是其他請主委回去你們一定要神聖的評估不要為了說因為這是賴總統的政見就一定要去把它完成而是要真正的能夠照顧到平埔族照顧到我們山園跟平原的權益是好 謝謝還有兩分鐘"},{"start":9818.251,"end":9820.792,"text":"請問會不會導致原保地價格飆漲,讓實際生活在部落的原住民會買不起原保地?"},{"start":9845.868,"end":9854.761,"text":"按照現行的規定的話他還不能買那如果你證明完之後他成為原住民的話他可不可以買"},{"start":9857.301,"end":9859.783,"text":"現在原住民的參政權、教育權、工作權要怎麼獲得保障?"},{"start":9885.172,"end":9902.237,"text":"現有的這個原住民的參政權你看比如我們立委有六席還有各地的不管是議員、代表這些我們本來都有一個原住民的一些名額那現在好你把評估出證明之後這些參政權你要怎麼保障教育權、工作權要怎麼保障"},{"start":9902.918,"end":9923.756,"text":"就立法委員的部分是要修憲的那至於地方制度法的那就是回歸到地方制度法就是地方縣市議員要怎麼寫那是回歸到地方制度法但是你講的是法制面那要怎麼去保障是名額要增加還是要會去排擠到現有的名額這個可能到時候都要請原民會這邊要審慎來評估以上 謝謝"},{"start":9926.894,"end":9951.646,"text":"好,非常謝謝徐宇貞委員的質詢,謝謝主委的回答。主委,我真的實在是,今天這個,宇貞回,這個,質詢的這個問題是真的很重要的一個問題,而且您在今天的報告也列為第一個部分。你在今年9月底要把法律草案函報行政院,11月底要通過行政院後函送大院,感覺好像您都還沒有準備好。"},{"start":9966.435,"end":9981.164,"text":"因應移居非原住民族地區原住民面臨之各種問題政府時應加強對都市地區原住民族權益保障為如何避免應加強對都市地區原住民族權益保障使都市化此息效應加劇反造成原鄉人口老化部落空洞化問題"},{"start":9982.105,"end":10009.521,"text":"由都市地區原住民族發展條例草案之立法現有各委員提案版本內容規範不一層面廣泛。原請原住民族委員會邀請相關部會地方政府與都市地區原住民族團體部落代表等召開公聽會﹐聽取各界意見﹐以使對都市地區原住民族權益之保障與協助更加周延可行。提案人委員王美惠等7人。臨時提案二有建議原民會出版主委個人施政專刊產生預算科目"},{"start":10011.297,"end":10012.138,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":10019.85,"end":10043.488,"text":"有鑑於原民會出版主委個人施政專刊產生預算科目明不符時之疑慮。據此,要求原住民族委員會每年9月15日比照經濟委員會各部會﹐制定相關預算科目西部計劃說明表﹐寫清楚預算科目績效指標﹐預期效益等相關事項﹐確保預算明時相符。提案人委員高金素美等4人。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10052.53,"end":10070.579,"text":"我們討論一下第一案第一案大家有沒有意見?郵民會但是在沒有意見之前我是不是來詢問一下這個去年度其實已經辦了非常多的慘事對不對來 處長來回應一下辦了幾次我們總共就是因為當時我們委託政治大學他們其實總共辦了七慘事"},{"start":10080.563,"end":10093.597,"text":"已經辦了辦過7場次了嗎對不對然後研討會也辦過對不對辦了幾次研討會辦一次好好去年也委託也也也也你們也也也把這個提案提出來了過對不對"},{"start":10095.934,"end":10118.788,"text":"去年我們是有先跟行政院的另外一層委員報告過草案的內容那你現在可不可以說明一下到底有什麼治安難行跟困難的地方因為現在就是有我們的委員提案希望你們再邀請相關部會地方政府跟都市地區的原住民團體剝落代表召開公聽會你覺得這個公聽會召開完了以後會解決現在一些問題嗎"},{"start":10120.154,"end":10140.608,"text":"因為目前這個草案的內容都有涉及到一些地方政府職長的一些事項比如說有些部分是需要地方政府去訂定一些後續的法規然後甚至有些部分也涉及到地方政府的預算編列所以這部分確實可能還需要再跟地方政府再去進一步的溝通"},{"start":10141.269,"end":10152.409,"text":"所以那你認為我們要辦幾場的公聽會才能夠解決這些問題還是問題還是就是說我們公聽會就算是辦完了很多的問題還是沒有辦法解決"},{"start":10154.501,"end":10181.057,"text":"辦公廳會我們會盡量跟地方政府達成達成共識的因為這個部分有些部分可能還是需要中央政府的協助的部分我們也可以透過公廳會去釐清彼此之間的一個那中央政府要幫忙協助什麼東西有些部分是預算的編類因為這個部分它其實都原條例的內容它其實算是你們討論過的這個預算到底要增加多少"},{"start":10183.517,"end":10199.243,"text":"預算的部分因為目前我們已經有一個都市原住民族發展方案在那個地方在執行了那那個是一個跨部會的方案他總共會有七十幾億的預算未來五年會有七十幾億的預算會投入到都市地區原住民的所以這個部分"},{"start":10200.283,"end":10216.9,"text":"預算的部分不會增加很多所以這樣子好不好那個美匯委員我是尊重你們的提案但是我們是不是在這提案當中也請原民會之前召開過了這幾次的研討會還有很多的公聽會"},{"start":10218.041,"end":10218.582,"text":"五、委託研究過後提供報告。"},{"start":10235.397,"end":10236.378,"text":"臨時提案第二案大家有沒有意見?"},{"start":10267.95,"end":10271.012,"text":"每年9月15日以前制定相關預算科目西部計劃說明表。"},{"start":10285.784,"end":10299.279,"text":"寫清楚預算的科目、績效的指標、預期效益等等相關的事項,確保預算明實相符。可以嗎?請問一下洪祿委員。我覺得把比照經濟委員會各部會刪掉。對,我知道。"},{"start":10302.302,"end":10327.287,"text":"所以就是原此要求原住民族委員會在每年的9月15號要制定相關的預算科目、細部計畫說明表、寫清楚預算的科目、績效的指標、預期效益等相關事項確保預算明實相符,可以嗎?好,那圓明會有沒有意見?好啦,這樣好啦,敢不敢有什麼意見?15號錢,好不好?對,再加一個錢來,圓明會"},{"start":10332.386,"end":10339.251,"text":"所以現在臨時提案這個第一個來我們來加一下文字再提"},{"start":10399.589,"end":10422.088,"text":"我們在原來的提案文字後面加上並請原住民族委員會提供歷來辦理座談會、研討會及委託研究資料提供給內政委員會各委員參考不僅提供資料你們要整理一下因為我想在場的委員們看太多的這些公聽會的資料都看不完了你們要整理完好不好對"},{"start":10430.811,"end":10441.103,"text":"對有幾個問題點然後要解決的要注意的然後中央各部會有哪一些人要來協助可以嗎"},{"start":10444.13,"end":10462.476,"text":"第一句改成並請原住民族委員會提供並整理然後歷來辦理座談會研討會及委託研究的資料給內政委員會還有公聽會的因為我們之前都是用座談會的方式所以你們沒有開過公聽會沒有公聽會就是座談會而已是不是好"},{"start":10463.496,"end":10465.277,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10486.994,"end":10511.554,"text":"那會不會就是就一直會延後對博議委員先表達齁這個對這個是支持齁但是欸 集場公聽會我我沒有我沒有意見啦但是我會建議地方政府一定要落實的去拜訪跟討論那個地方政府會有不一樣的意見跟需求那地方政府如果沒有"},{"start":10512.515,"end":10514.596,"text":"我們大概會跨到幾個地方政府?"},{"start":10533.444,"end":10546.034,"text":"目前就是除了花東之外的地方政府都會涉及到因為目前花東都是原住民族地區那其他的縣市都有都會都有定義上的都會地區的原住民族"},{"start":10550.171,"end":10560.854,"text":"所以這樣子會蠻多的,會蠻長的一段時間。不是,因為主委在這,我說要叫人家送齁,感覺齁,說實在,你們想這個法案給地方都不知道,像剛才本市長問的,跟你們說的,我覺得落差也蠻大的,所以我還要求一個公聽會,大家有意見,有什麼,提出來說,看"},{"start":10580.151,"end":10587.855,"text":"您需要什麼,地方配合什麼,跟他們的困難做一對,這樣才是最重要。不然你們說要做要做,跟地方如果不配合也是沒辦法。"},{"start":10595.913,"end":10617.648,"text":"好,所以這個因為陳營委員也有提案那現在我們有一個臨時提案就是希望能夠在原民會要邀集相關部會地方政府和都市地區原住民團體部落代表要召開公聽會聽完了之後這個我們再來不知道陳營委員的意見是"},{"start":10621.836,"end":10649.245,"text":"我想多討論是好的我也贊成就是說我們讓這個各縣市都來辦公廳會大家仔細討論那確實因為我們當然我們提案有時候中央提案地方買單那因為這個財政的問題確實這個各地方的縣市政府也去聽聽他們意見是好"},{"start":10650.285,"end":10659.574,"text":"所以我是建議就是說至少我們每個縣市都一定要辦公聽會這樣子好 您是希望所以是每個縣市都要辦公聽會那這樣子的話那就好幾場囉"},{"start":10671.874,"end":10680.927,"text":"那會延宕我們在這邊因為公聽會辦完了之後呢可能才才能夠研議非常多的問題所以這樣陳委員您接受嗎"},{"start":10687.058,"end":10697.366,"text":"主席,在這裏抱歉,我是覺得那些所屬人認為,到目前為止,他們都沒有去跟政府說,因為現在你說要訂3、4張,我說是不是叫他們去處理,我們不要訂,因為"},{"start":10711.838,"end":10712.379,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":10728.404,"end":10729.565,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":10747.881,"end":10751.504,"text":"主委,我認為您的職責去頂班,不是,如果這樣說,去拜訪一下,我們就要這個條款,要過您的配合完。"},{"start":10760.719,"end":10775.732,"text":"要講清楚,人家要來你倒三天到我倒三天啊。不然你跟我說你們中央修這個法案,我們家鄉全部我們地方要做,如果不做又去賣。所以我主張真的要趕緊去處理,趕緊開公廳的。"},{"start":10780.014,"end":10801.802,"text":"李熊好 這樣子好不好我們來折衷一下如果說是去拜訪各縣市政府的話我覺得真的是花了蠻長的時間啦我們就因為去年度他們已經辦了很多的座談會了也請這個也委託來研究所以我們是不是我們就直接把它寫5場好不好可以嗎對 可以嗎"},{"start":10807.455,"end":10822.888,"text":"五場公聽會好不好不然的話時間太長了我也認為不要拖太久但我覺得五場的話我跟你講至少直轄市就六讀了"},{"start":10823.669,"end":10847.027,"text":"好那這樣子我們是以月份以月份來限制他們積極處理在三個月內好不好可以嗎可以啦你至少要六都都要去啦六都至少都要去好不好那我們就是在這個上面這個文字上面齁再加上這個明確加上就是三個月內看一下對"},{"start":10849.502,"end":10854.529,"text":"民族委員會邀請相關部會、地方政府與地方政府部門召開,三個月內。"},{"start":10861.499,"end":10887.177,"text":"部落代表等在三個月內召開公聽會,聽取各界意見,以使對都市地區原住民族權益的保障跟協助更加周延可行。可以嗎?後面就是並請原住民族委員會提供並整理歷來辦理座談會、研討會及委託研究的資料提供給內政委員會各委員參考。可以嗎?好"},{"start":10889.118,"end":10891.36,"text":"按照修正文字通過"},{"start":10923.533,"end":10944.846,"text":"主席有請部長有請曾主委謝謝主委好恭喜你我們倆的家只限距離不到10公里所以應該可以很有良性的溝通那我們先從第一頁的業務報告來看好不好"},{"start":10948.444,"end":10973.353,"text":"常常在翻譯的一個過程我覺得在一個中央部會層級的一個翻譯我覺得應該要很審慎所以我們就第一頁來看所以那個關於原住民族委員會這個部分我們的台灣語是Batara katsarishan可是Batara的部分我覺得應該是介系詞所以應該不可以跟katsarishan放在一起所以那個"},{"start":10975.267,"end":10999.36,"text":"關於BATARA就是AboutIndigenous那就是說BATARA、GATSARISAN把字放在一起的時候會覺得這個字非常冗長也就會針對我們的很多原住民的學生或者是一般人他要學原住民的時候會覺得很困難的地方就是單字太長可是並不是單字太長是因為你不知道怎麼給他分段落所以這個第一頁這個部分要提醒的部分是這個"},{"start":11000.55,"end":11022.243,"text":"二、我希望主委能夠親自很大聲的唸一下你的名字好不好在下面這個報告人這個部分這個下面是第一老鼠老鼠淫入再來老鼠淫入然後後面那個是那個名字是老鼠淫入對那為什麼後面還有這些這個是不對的吧"},{"start":11031.021,"end":11056.472,"text":"那個應該是主任委員的意思吧我是希望說最後翻譯的時候能夠比較確實然後如果說因為會誤解這是你所有名字的一個全部就會認為說我怎麼念不出來還是怎麼樣那是不是以後如果說以後再取名字的時候要不要按照你這個模式來取以後我們的名字就會特別長所以用一個指標性的來看可以嗎好我會特別注意再修一下"},{"start":11057.933,"end":11082.233,"text":"從第二頁來看原住民專法這個身份認定這個部分我上次有提過臺東的平地三包很多排灣族的平地三包甚至是盧卡族的平地三包其實他們是有意願成為3D原住民那這個部分是不是在門檻上面能不能就意願來去申請如果說困難度是困難度在哪裡"},{"start":11083.464,"end":11110.618,"text":"現在比如說大武鄉、太馬里鄉有很多是平原的可是他確實是我們的排灣族人的話你覺得有沒有一個在這一屆請人不能完成目前的根委包括目前的法令是不可以就是你你被定你是山地原住民平地原住民你不能就是說這個就不能按照他的意願嗎對因為現在我們已經要我們已經要解決平埔原住民的問題可不可以順便來解決這個問題因為這個問題是懸而未決"},{"start":11115.191,"end":11117.533,"text":"二、取得原住民部落同意的方式只有部落會議?"},{"start":11126.727,"end":11145.07,"text":"是,是,所以我們可不可以用電訊的,或者是簽同意書的,或者是說有一個部落的APP,很多人在外面工作,他沒有辦法回到部落,他說部落的APP有一個同意的一個按鈕的話,他就send出來的話,我們就不用那麼費心思的來開部落會議,而且部落會議每次開都開不成。"},{"start":11146.024,"end":11147.024,"text":"原住民族土地使用規則"},{"start":11170.273,"end":11194.546,"text":"我既有的土地的保障跟未來的一個方向在哪裡?是不是可以就近的來解決這些?這兩個問題就好。現在你變成114年5月1號實施以後,我的土地可以解決什麼樣的問題?第二個是我現在的土地的保障跟未來的規劃,這樣就好了。不然你永遠都卡在挪一挪二,這些老人家根本就不知道在講什麼,好不好?"},{"start":11195.731,"end":11218.663,"text":"就是要解決耕作的這個耕地的不足的還有居住的這個不足的部分因為每次開座談會或者到部落宣導的時候聽完一遍他頭腦又暈了然後又不知道又在講什麼但是就針對他個人的部分會不會改變就好了是不是這樣會比較容易是我們分到第第4頁"},{"start":11220.816,"end":11244.085,"text":"就都市原住民發展的部分我是希望說我們現在的那個原住民地區大概都是用合作社的方式嘛那是不是就都我們都也越來越多剛才講50.2甚至已經我們昭緯說已經到65了是不是我們可以規劃我們能夠變成原住民的銀行然後一個唯利無論是唯利創業貸款、唯利公屋住宅、唯利的一個創業貸款這些"},{"start":11247.247,"end":11255.503,"text":"我們是不是有一個可行性的方向來做我把我們所有的合作社這些儲蓄合作社能夠整合起來有沒有這樣這方面的規劃來我請處長回答一下"},{"start":11259.318,"end":11280.334,"text":"跟委員報告那針對原住民綜合發展基金的各項貸款其實我們有分有事業型貸款甚至在儲戶社都有相關的那我是希望說我們能夠能夠朝向比較大的一個原住民銀行的來來去跟中央來爭取經費不然你只是這樣的一個"},{"start":11281.195,"end":11302.646,"text":"成績我覺得很像沒有辦法解決都會寫那個問題可以嗎我們努力一下不好意思第二個就是我們原住民就醫的問題因為他常常在部落看病的時候是不用錢可是到都會去看病就用錢就要付部分負擔跟掛號費我希望他的身份不會因為他到了都會他就不是原住民了"},{"start":11303.186,"end":11326.554,"text":"所以希望他這個部分能夠擴展到我在原住民地區看病不用錢到都會區應該也免部分負擔這個要來規劃因為造成很多主任在就業上面那個負擔跟跟那個所謂不公平了因為他在他在原住民地區本來就不用錢了為什麼到平基到高到長庚看病就要錢呢是不是好這個會跟衛福部在我們再來協商好不好"},{"start":11328.902,"end":11355.212,"text":"因為時間的關係我在提那個我們一直在講的那個原住民族博物館因為我們原委會原委員會都要搬到桃園那既然這個時間還有一個時間8年那現在那個費用是58億那可是我上次在想好像沒有聽到未來的宿舍你看高雄長庚在蓋的時候他是先蓋員工宿舍呢那我們國立那個博物館他應該也要有啊"},{"start":11355.572,"end":11370.266,"text":"因為將來的那些工作人員也都是原住民他們一定是從全國各地去的是不是應該是這樣朝這個方向你這個費用是不是應該要再增設或者說匡列這個我們未來員工的一個住宿的一個地方"},{"start":11370.846,"end":11398.235,"text":"二、擔心設計元素沒有原住民的題材。因為常常有人會說行人地獄就是我們目前國人的那個都市的那個道路常常會覺得行人沒辦法跑步沒辦法很安全然後甚至在我們部落看到一些圖騰根本就不是那個族群的然後那個顏色也用不對我上次去花蓮看到那個八步合音的那個八個人在那邊唱歌的那個很像是西安人在唱八步合音就會有這樣的一個"},{"start":11402.282,"end":11415.298,"text":"規劃設計的元素應該要很審慎要用我們原住民的人才去規劃未來的一個方向不是去國家博物館看的時候很像是去一般的博物館根本就沒有凸顯它的價值所以這個部分你要強烈的要求可以嗎"},{"start":11416.248,"end":11430.123,"text":"會因為我們籌備處的時候會一一要求這些剛才委員最後一頁第10頁就是關於我們原住民歧視的問題就是我希望能夠比照性騷擾這個部分很多人在"},{"start":11431.284,"end":11455.345,"text":"一般的工作地方、崗位工作或者是警察或是軍人都會受到歧視他不知道怎麼去申訴我們的學生也是一樣所以如果說新燒肉大家都那麼重視我覺得就我們的原住民的歧視應該要一般跟那個新燒肉一樣的一個重視的一個等級不然會造成很多人沒有辦法好好的說出他心裡面的話可以嗎?可以來這樣演繹謝謝"},{"start":11459.518,"end":11462.219,"text":"主席各位委員有請曾主委有請曾主委"},{"start":11496.449,"end":11522.801,"text":"我好。我好。你好。你好。這個原住民族要爭取原錢,很重要的要跨越政黨,而且要永不放棄。過去我們,我當這個公務員,不管哪一個政黨執政,"},{"start":11524.605,"end":11546.563,"text":"要設法爭取想辦法去說服各部會尤其是政務委員要想辦法說服政務委員我當了立委之後當時原民會要送的土海法、自治法有一個政務委員連審都不審就退回去"},{"start":11548.035,"end":11571.896,"text":"我跟高精素美委員還有簡東明立委我們在這裡大罵批判這個那個政務委員所以跨業政黨永不放棄好因為這個行政院長新上任你也新上任很重要的"},{"start":11572.799,"end":11591.35,"text":"原住民族基本法是根據憲法的規定來制定然後還有很多法例還沒有通過所以第一個任務就是要到行政院要跟行政院的院長做報告"},{"start":11592.842,"end":11617.847,"text":"為什麼這些法案還沒有通過所以很重要的行政院為審議協調本法相關事項這是原住民族基本法第三條規定的應設置推動委員會所以這個推動委員會是由行政院院長召集主持這非常非常的重要我過去擔任副主委的時候就是先協調相關的部會"},{"start":11619.616,"end":11648.447,"text":"然後把這個案送到行政院院長所主持的這個而不是隨便提一個報告事項我舉個例子原基法推動會第11次會議報告事項南島民族論壇推動情形報告案這跟原基法推動會所要協調的原基法未完成的有什麼關係呢所以不要亂提好我們就一個一個來"},{"start":11649.83,"end":11667.641,"text":"原住民族基本法第4條規定政府應依原住民族的意願是原住民族的意願而不是政黨的意願是原住民族的意願所以要實行原住民族自治這法律定得很清楚"},{"start":11669.295,"end":11692.216,"text":"不要再說還要再聽起原住民族的意願各機關的意見已經花很多錢了主委從105年度每年編列預算到113年度總共為了原住民族自治的預算"},{"start":11693.854,"end":11697.978,"text":"已經變了3639萬8千元,多可惜啊這個錢,已經開了無數次的,這個還105還,之前我當處長的時候就開始了,我當企劃處處長就開始了,我這個還沒算,所以就花了很多錢。"},{"start":11717.745,"end":11738.105,"text":"大家都希望是政府不希望有些政黨不希望所以這個部分我們要跨越政黨陳水扁總統提過原住民族自治法馬英九總統提過原住民族自治法原住民族自治暫行條例"},{"start":11739.082,"end":11762.992,"text":"就可以把它做一個看怎麼樣去處理這個很可惜的就是當初原住民主治法在99年有正式討論開了三次審查但是很可惜沒有三黨沒有共識然後後來推了一個原住民族自治暫行條例滿英九的時候103年提出來"},{"start":11764.805,"end":11789.827,"text":"我們在內政委員會開會審查然後朝野協商把名稱改為原住民族自治推動條例很可惜有的政黨他不簽字所以我們要去跨越政黨要去說服各黨團就像原住民族基本法當初也不是所有的政黨都支持"},{"start":11791.584,"end":11810.162,"text":"作為原民會的主委作為原民會的副主委就要去溝通協調各黨團讓他們瞭解不要那麼怕告訴他不要怕大家當初對原住民族基本法不是怕得要什麼本來那時候還要復讐呢經過溝通協調後來沒有復讐到現在又怎麼樣有像"},{"start":11816.746,"end":11842.435,"text":"都還是要繼續支持還有很多其實都是原則性的條文所以這個部分我們看這個凍海法這是原住民族基本法第20條授權制定凍海法所以現在你們要把名稱改為原住民族保育地管理利用條例是倒退的這個蔡總統說的也是凍海法"},{"start":11844.209,"end":11845.87,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查十。"},{"start":11865.472,"end":11892.012,"text":"96年11月26號第一次我那時候當副主委送到立法院當時已經又要選舉了太晚送了因為前面溝通我開了十次我當副主委召開十次會議溝通協調相關的部會然後送到院會之後吳哲成政務委員負責召開三天三夜"},{"start":11893.001,"end":11912.498,"text":"完成這個土海法但是送到立法院已經借期不連續了就是去年2月15號陳水扁總統的最後也送來但是後來又任期又到了所以104年105年都有送土海法但是時間送的都太晚"},{"start":11913.362,"end":11941.25,"text":"所以並不是說不送所以我們現在為什麼明明原住民族基本法20條授權定的是屠海法怎麼後來變成限收在原住民保留地管理利用條例所以不要輕易的去改這個法律的授權的很清楚站在你後面的那個處長啊他都清楚啊要不使用處長很清楚啊"},{"start":11942.902,"end":11958.676,"text":"但是我們政務官要設法去說服各部會設法說服行政院院長所以這個部分是要避免這個曾主委那我們這個"},{"start":11960.799,"end":11974.92,"text":"原住民族教育法也是根據原住民族我們的憲法徵修條文原住民族學校法也是一樣所以這個部分有很多的東西像這個傳統領域"},{"start":11978.379,"end":12006.227,"text":"蔡總統說我們今年11月是指105年的11月我們會開始劃設公告原住民族傳統領域土地也定了這個雖然我們不是很滿意的原住民族土地部落防範圍土地劃設辦法但是呢很遺憾的就是到現在當初人民會公告兩個傳統領域一個是烏來一個是少主的少主的被撤銷了行政院撤銷了"},{"start":12008.877,"end":12035.384,"text":"剩下誣賴的誣賴實施到現在從107年到現在有沒有自愛難行的有沒有影響到其他的民族沒有啊所以要去說服說服相關的沒有沒有影響完全沒有影響啊對不對傳統意義的公告你看最下面的那個數字"},{"start":12037.312,"end":12037.432,"text":"737個部落"},{"start":12040.595,"end":12067.008,"text":"我們現在只有泰雅族的烏來只有4個部落只完成737分之4的部落的傳統禮儀對不對所以這個部分都是需要這個積極的協調去推動都是我們爭取原住民的權益永不放棄像這個部落公法人這個是最容易"},{"start":12068.138,"end":12095.776,"text":"這是法例授權延民會定部落公法人的設置辦法你們的理由說我部落有不同意見他不要成立的就不用成立啊沒有強制啊曾主委沒有強制部落公法人的設置辦法這是延期法授權延民會你定的這個部落公法人的設置辦法你公告"},{"start":12096.704,"end":12097.745,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":12120.384,"end":12122.806,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":12148.999,"end":12166.334,"text":"這個部分我們因為時間的關係這個最後都市原住民發展條例如果行政院會這幾天這一兩個禮拜或是這一個月之內如果也沒辦法的話"},{"start":12168.243,"end":12189.759,"text":"就是說尊重立法委員的版本我們會開審查召集委員我們的召委他會安排審查所以這個已經過去以降主委已經開了很多次會議我剛在提案說明的時候有提啊109年以降主委承諾的"},{"start":12192.279,"end":12194.12,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":12215.792,"end":12217.373,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":12244.231,"end":12248.834,"text":"謝謝主席。有請老處主委。也請曾主委。主委好。今天是您的初次登場。大家都有很多的期許。"},{"start":12267.25,"end":12268.13,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":12290.319,"end":12304.373,"text":"您過去是在我們原民會文化發展中心擔任主任對不對對您知不知道在30年前1994年有一個很重要的"},{"start":12305.495,"end":12333.529,"text":"原住民文化會議就在您服務的地方以前叫文化園區現在叫文發中心在那個地方舉辦那當時呢李登輝總統親自出席原住民三個字第一次出現就是在李登輝總統的口中在那一次的會議那一個場合講出來的您應該很清楚是"},{"start":12334.884,"end":12358.641,"text":"我就是想要問您因為多少年來大家都在問那個原住民文化會議怎麼都沒有再舉辦沒有第二屆後來文建會辦的那個已經沒有原住民三個字都叫文化會議我想請教這個歷史的際遇緣分您來擔任原民會主委"},{"start":12359.895,"end":12374.155,"text":"您會不會辦理這個原住民的文化會議?會不會?各位委員報告我想我們試試看我們來辦再重辦這個原住民族的文化會議會在8月1號原住民日嗎?"},{"start":12377.389,"end":12393.869,"text":"我們在內部討論一下因為8月1號我們本來就辦全國原住民的這個那如果不是8月1號原住民族日那會在今年辦理嗎這樣的一個原住民文化會議因為30年前是在4月辦理"},{"start":12394.77,"end":12397.771,"text":"我希望能夠廣邀年輕人參與。我想這個部分就做您的功課,好嗎?因為我跟您很熟,我可能也要稍微報個料。"},{"start":12417.745,"end":12426.53,"text":"我們其實這個會期很熱鬧原住民族很關注的一個議題就是禁法補償金到底會不會過啦那我其實很想講我昨天去電腦搜尋了一下欸!那個計畫還搜尋得到捏因為我知道的是禁法補償其實原住民第一個做這個的應該是屏東縣政府"},{"start":12448.188,"end":12472.53,"text":"而且是你的任內你知道嗎對我們用現款自己來先做中央還沒有核定前我們自己用現款對我昨天去撈資料我還撈到呢我撈到一份那個當年的實施計畫但是這個是96年度但是我知道更早當時您是處長是現政府用自己的現款辦進法補償對那我就想要問啊你當年是執行者嗎"},{"start":12474.448,"end":12483.276,"text":"現在過了這麼多年大家希望進法補償金應該要因應我們目前目前有哪一些狀況呢?我們都在講我們未來會有碳會、碳權"},{"start":12488.379,"end":12503.614,"text":"我們都在講照領補償金從20年60萬已經改為6年60萬種種都必須要把淨法補償金提高因為我記得當年曹錦鴻縣長他為什麼要在屏東縣辦淨法補償因為他說"},{"start":12507.097,"end":12522.139,"text":"不能在賀伯風災土石流這樣的一個國土保安需要之下政府推動了照齡補償政策結果是砍大樹種小樹所以必須透過禁法來去平衡這種現象"},{"start":12523.641,"end":12524.141,"text":"講文化有文化部"},{"start":12554.889,"end":12580.251,"text":"講土地有國土署講教育有教育部那原民會被弄成一個笑話只要有原這個字好像通通都是原住民的事但是我想跟主委說我其實對原民會的期許是別的部會做不到的事我們原民會就應該扛起責任來做我舉個例子"},{"start":12581.573,"end":12605.262,"text":"像三叉坑它是從921地震之後因為政府的錯誤把它遷到一個土地產權有問題的地方結果搞到現在還要打官司主委我們能不能夠原民會編一筆錢啊我們來幫助他們解決土地的問題可以嗎"},{"start":12608.905,"end":12623.231,"text":"報告委員當初這個土地架構其實我們是支持的但是因為當初臺東市政府執行計畫面去了解我也開很多次協調會我們安排下個禮拜去好不好讓民眾知道是誰的責任好不好那我舉個例子我們來自屏東"},{"start":12624.871,"end":12645.65,"text":"滿洲鄉的分水嶺也是一樣啊從那個時候的八八風災以前歷史成阿政府把他們遷到不安全的區域現在他們一直喊我們到底什麼時候遷到安全的地方像這樣的一個簽件案到時候他要面臨土地要面臨貸款我們原民會是不是應該跳出來幫忙對不對"},{"start":12647.051,"end":12649.274,"text":"這個我們都協調了,國產署都協調,他到時候面臨貸款的問題要不要幫忙?"},{"start":12662.91,"end":12689.603,"text":"他如果他的貸款問題部分的話目前縣政府還沒有提出來那我等一下會說那我再舉個例子像是我們常常看到我很傷心因為我們住在深山部落我們的復康巴士長照服務50歲以上要用可是有的人三、四十歲他就得癌症可是他享受不到這些"},{"start":12690.851,"end":12705.984,"text":"可是政府想像不到我們是住在山區耶我今天得了癌症我每個禮拜要去醫院複診但是我享受不到這一些長照服務這些復康巴士如果我們請原民會來編列主委您認為應不應該以前都可以編馬桶啦這個別的族群沒有的我們原民會可以自己編啊"},{"start":12719.813,"end":12727.309,"text":"甚至是我們的電動代步車我們原住民我們的膝蓋老化科學數據我們比人家膝蓋老化早個7、8年"},{"start":12729.062,"end":12749.638,"text":"像這個部分其實我們原民會都可以扛起責任來做啊我們會再也不過我們叫衛福部做他很困難啊他說我要不要幫新住民做那我們原住民可不可以自己做像代步車的部分我們有考量說代步車其實常常發生意外事故啦那朋友就說因為他還有一些有社會福利身份的一個列別的部分都要"},{"start":12750.098,"end":12750.858,"text":"都要演繹以上。"},{"start":12766.403,"end":12783.311,"text":"人民有感我們要在細微的地方政府的末梢神經觸及不到的地方我們原民會我們就要撿起來做那包括我們的原保地我也想講我一直到財政委員會處理原保地儘管會提供評鑑用英OK我甚至剛剛我在財政委員會我說現在那些長治百合永久屋要自立建屋的他們要貸款"},{"start":12793.195,"end":12815.904,"text":"我問公股銀行哪一個願意做,現在有評鑑誘因,台灣銀行舉手說他來做,但是所有都答應我了,農業部也願意增設,現在內政部、原保地建架、石架東路他們都願意做,他們說我們就在等原民會的一個作業,信用保證作業,告訴我三個月,我們可不可以比其他部會快?"},{"start":12818.117,"end":12845.868,"text":"可以喔可以欸一定可以啦別的部會都那麼阿沙哩喔那關於這些圖管規則我講很久我希望可以趕快出來那針對我們的疑慮原鄉的公共設施能不能包含因為現在原鄉啊很多的建物都沒有建造啊他們一直在問公共建設行不行我建議啦能拆的就補助趕快做新的土地有問題的你們就編列經費來協助處理建造的問題好不好好"},{"start":12849.271,"end":12862.112,"text":"因為時間的關係真的很抱歉我要講的就是我這個會期我對您的期許賴總統當選那一天晚上他自己說的他說他第一個要做的是不惡公法人"},{"start":12864.175,"end":12864.956,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":12881.184,"end":12886.745,"text":"文化總會主導啦原民會你們主導一下你們的大船都已經造好了要準備直航通航了這是唯一60%跟我們的蘭嶼達烏族相同語言的島啊我們要好好的來做啊現在國際各個國家都很看重巴丹島啊我們要搶先來做好不好編足經費那很多的問題我以後再來跟我們原民會做質詢謝謝主席給我這個多的時間"},{"start":12910.929,"end":12911.329,"text":"徐新穎委員主席"},{"start":12936.092,"end":12963.35,"text":"主委看到我們今天這個原民會的報告我們司法院憲法法庭在111年憲判自第17號有判決肯定平埔族群具有原住民的身份那判決要求114年10月27日前能夠修正原住民身份法或令例專法"},{"start":12964.896,"end":12980.747,"text":"我看到報告裡面寫說是不是現在原住民委員會會規劃今年9月前要報行政院,11月通過行政院院會,這樣會不會過度樂觀?"},{"start":12990.185,"end":13008.112,"text":"因為這個先期的這些前置之類有一些東西都已經先做了所以您真的覺得是可以完成啊?我們盡量在這個時間內因為它有一個期限也必須在對啊它到114年今年才113"},{"start":13010.02,"end":13013.821,"text":"資商同意與平埔族身份認定三個月完成立法"},{"start":13026.917,"end":13043.028,"text":"這是目標還是你們就是決心三個月內要完成?對不起這是個目標總要有一個目標來完成事情你這個回答可能要謹慎一點不然你要負政治責任"},{"start":13045.841,"end":13060.2,"text":"再來本席看到我們今天預算結凍案第二案在結凍報告第4頁是就原住民漁民自治獵槍漁槍許可及管理辦法的修正"},{"start":13061.341,"end":13080.688,"text":"原民會應與警政署討論未來修法方向,保障原住民族獵槍文化的延續。原民會解凍報告指,會持續確保草案內容符合族人狩獵需求並保障狩獵"},{"start":13083.253,"end":13101.64,"text":"保障狩獵文化的傳承對於解凍預算解凍案呢要求是要求原民會要提出應對方向也就是要原民會表達立場跟主張可是你們一句話都沒說你要不要在這邊說一下是不是我請處長回答一下哦可以啊處長"},{"start":13107.591,"end":13127.707,"text":"那這部分我們都有在跟內政部在討論這個辦法草案的時候都有都有提出我們的一些一些未來的規劃方向那將來會納入到這個整個辦法的訂定裡面因為在報告裡我們都沒看到所以如果講不出來我們本席就認為這個案等你們辦理以後再解凍好了對因為給你時間了好那接著接著本席要請教請教"},{"start":13138.154,"end":13153.969,"text":"我們有這個移居部落建設計畫,原住民族這個部落特色道路的改善計畫。那對原住民族來說這是很重要的計畫。所以道路工程做好了要維護,但是山區道路的養護不易。"},{"start":13155.77,"end":13175.956,"text":"另從燃料稅提供財源的部落聯絡道路養護計畫目前平均年度執行率只有68%不同的部落執行率不同本席要為新竹縣尖石五峰兩個鄉爭取"},{"start":13179.497,"end":13195.722,"text":"那我們的執行率呢相對的高但是錢不夠用所以本席建議可不可以執行率的這個預算呢可以移給執行率高的部落來使用各位報告這是應該的執行率越高的我們應該要越給對所以這一塊也要請這個原民會這邊能夠多多來支持"},{"start":13205.855,"end":13227.71,"text":"主委您上任對於這個文化健康站您了解嗎?文化健康站有了解那現在在執行面文化健康站您了解在各部落執行上他們的困難在哪裡你知道嗎?有沒有聽過部落有反映出什麼問題?"},{"start":13233.908,"end":13253.029,"text":"如果勉強來講大概就是他們還是覺得照顧的人力還不足但是目前來講我們照顧的這個整個510個站來講照顧原鄉的老人來講算是照顧得不錯但是就是說當然還是需要再多一點人力需要多一點"},{"start":13255.59,"end":13273.601,"text":"除了反映人力之外因為我們原住民族有一些偏鄉但有一些在平地那像比較偏鄉的他現在整個人事行政管理費用好像是在各縣市政府在掌管對不對"},{"start":13274.4,"end":13303.292,"text":"我們今年有增加一點了業務會有增加我們地方上會希望比如像我們新竹縣尖石五峰他們希望說是不是可以由他們鄉這裡來協助因為有些更偏遠的好像你縣政府他大概沒有鞭長莫及這個部分是不是有應對方案有啊這個尖石鄉的部分就有協助"},{"start":13304.58,"end":13317.733,"text":"你所謂協助是怎麼樣行政管理會有協助有協助行政管理會對,他們希望說是不是讓鄉公所這邊來協助你的文化健康站讓那個分工更細一點"},{"start":13319.291,"end":13343.108,"text":"一些偏遠的站你縣政府這邊他可能真的鞭長莫及但鄉公所他本身這個堅實鄉公所他就是能夠把整個堅實鄉我們每個部落照顧好這樣是不是分工的更細主委覺得這樣可不可以可以像鄉公所堅實鄉公所他就管三個文件站了"},{"start":13345.151,"end":13366.456,"text":"對,所以他們的這個反應,我們在原民會這邊可以協助配合嗎?可以喔?好,那再來就是我們這個有關文化健康戰的部分呢,希望提供幾點,提供給主委來參考。那是不是這些建議會後提供書面回覆就可以喔?"},{"start":13367.136,"end":13392.156,"text":"首先第一個就是增加照顧資源讓部落的失能長者可以獲得充足的照顧服務那再來剛剛您也提到能夠補充專業人力來減輕照顧服務員的工作負荷就人力的部分再來隨著高齡化速度加快是不是可以放寬文件站就是文化健康站的服務人數的限制"},{"start":13393.897,"end":13401.602,"text":"四、在多元族群融合的氛圍下,能否打破服務使用者族群別的資格限制?五、文件站的醫療照顧設備可否盡量補足?"},{"start":13409.548,"end":13434.839,"text":"以及我們是不是能夠培力照顧服務員的專業能力來促進他的職涯發展以及制定照顧服務員薪資分級制和暢通的升遷管道最後就是是不是可以推年輕族人返鄉從事部落照顧工作並且從其老身上傳承原住民族深度的文化體系"},{"start":13435.399,"end":13435.759,"text":"陳英委員質詢"},{"start":13463.213,"end":13488.449,"text":"謝謝主席主席請坐我等一下再請他們上來剛才在這個有在場的政務官還有我們所有的公務人員們要請你們小心了因為剛剛竟然有立委質詢說沒有接電話叫藐視立委那沒有回電話也是叫做藐視立委我想這種事情拿到這裡來講實在是藐視國會"},{"start":13491.391,"end":13514.547,"text":"我認為要得到這個大家的尊重真的就是要從自身做起那讓大家從心裡面真正的來尊重你這才叫真正的尊重所以是不是未來我們在野黨是不是也要再提案就是未來如果沒有接到這個立委的電話又沒有回電話的話也要給他判刑也要給他抓去關也要給他罰款"},{"start":13515.347,"end":13516.388,"text":"請原委會董事長滿腰鼓舞"},{"start":13533.984,"end":13555.141,"text":"好 謝謝 董事長是這樣 因為剛剛我們那個盧憲毅委員有特別就這個業務報告的部分就是有提到這個書寫的方式 那我想在業務報告上面其實也蠻清楚的就是說主委的名字 這個都有大寫 這個兩個 一個是"},{"start":13559.639,"end":13573.499,"text":"一個是家族的姓氏一個是名字後面是我父親這個部分就是都有大寫所以很清楚我們可以看到這個報告人"},{"start":13576.402,"end":13577.924,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":13596.359,"end":13619.975,"text":"但是在書寫上就比較我比較沒有印象說有聽到說我們有在做這個部分啦考試啦教學啦就比較少那我們也很疑惑像我在美國求學我們寫論文的時候每一個段落那個英文字母都要大寫那講到人民或地名專有名詞的時候那個第一個字母也是要大寫"},{"start":13620.936,"end":13631.147,"text":"那還有標點符號那所以我想請教主委說那我們族語的部分你們是不是未來也針對這個書寫方式有一個統一的這個一個規則"},{"start":13634.735,"end":13654.111,"text":"主席跟委員回覆報告那基本上第一個是在去年我們已經跟我們相關的16個以推組織做共識跟也跟這個長期在推動主義的相關的大學、縣、校跟部落做共識那也在去年已經頒布初步共設的版本"},{"start":13654.831,"end":13671.35,"text":"也接著會跟16個已推組織做協調討論,預計在年底會提出比較完整的共識版,目前已經提出了一個參考版,也透過各已推的相關齊勞們的尊重各族群的書寫方法。"},{"start":13672.025,"end":13693.392,"text":"好我覺得這個很棒你們真的很不錯那因為因為確實書寫的部分在過去並沒有這個加強太多好所以這個部分也希望你們完成之後呢可以盡快的公佈然後讓大家可以熟悉好瞭解一下這個書寫的方式好好謝謝啊請回座那接下來請那個社福處羅處長有請了處長委員好"},{"start":13703.439,"end":13722.609,"text":"處長,你們5月28號星期二在食藥署有針對各族群傳統特色食材之管理原則有邀集相關單位開溝通會議,你清楚這個事吧?了解你們誰去開的?我們是陳曼同仁跟我們相關科員跟專管助理"},{"start":13727.8,"end":13740.45,"text":"食藥署會開溝通會議主要是因為我們族人常常使用販售在地的野生的傳統食材雖然對我們而言這些野菜我們都常見這些對我們來說其實是傳統食材但是呢"},{"start":13747.555,"end":13773.658,"text":"有些在食藥署的這個食品原料整合查詢平台裡面是完全查不到了那因為查不到所以就被列為這個非傳統性的食品原料那族人在販售這些食材如果被檢舉了就會被依依這個違反食安法來裁罰那針對這個問題我已經多次有邀集這個請這個食藥署依這個族群特性的來重新檢討相關規定那前天呢"},{"start":13774.198,"end":13778.399,"text":"原民會提供給食藥署的傳統飲食清單總共只有14項,農業部提了137項。辦公室有詢問原民會說你們14項是怎麼來的?大家猜猜看怎麼來?"},{"start":13793.834,"end":13813.074,"text":"我聽了嚇一跳啊你們是依據轉型正義委員會的清單挑出來的那個轉型正義委員會那邊委員提供的清單嗎跟委員報告一下因為轉型正義委員會裡面也在關心這個事情那剛好那個我們也請那個比較有過去有這瞭解這樣一個委員"},{"start":13814.535,"end":13838.597,"text":"對,我覺得你們這樣是便宜行事耶。他們全部都是專家嗎?全部的這個委員都是齊老嗎?都是很有經驗的嗎?人家送名單給你們之後,你們有主動再去調查其他各個族群嗎?有嗎?我們後續會主動調查。就是後續才,人家已經要開這個會,人家動作都很快,結果你們就只拿了,其實說,"},{"start":13840.058,"end":13859.277,"text":"拿了那些委員提供的名單你看下面都有人在搖頭了我跟委員報告我們現在有盤點是有516項這相關的但是因為第一次跟食藥署合作我們第一次先提那個第14筆可以讓他納入到可用食品依然表裡面去做所以這個合作模式建立起來我們後續會陸續再提供"},{"start":13861.706,"end":13887.695,"text":"我想是這樣子就是說因為你們14項品項有月桃老藤、台灣胡椒、山肉粿等等但是阿美族人常吃的這個芒草心就沒有所以就是說到底有多少品項已經有在這個食品原料整合查詢平台那還有多少品項是沒有那我是覺得說另外就是說因為你們提供14個真的太少"},{"start":13888.195,"end":13912.236,"text":"二、醫食藥署規定非傳統性食品要納入查詢平台。可以做問卷去判定具有完整的獨理學的安全性學術文獻報告以及成功使用的紀錄要25年。還有28天的未毒性試驗跟基因毒性試驗。還有90天的未毒性試驗跟基因毒性試驗還有致肌試驗。"},{"start":13913.737,"end":13931.776,"text":"那因為我們很早其實我們沒有文字所以要舉證這個長久有實用的這些歷史其實是可能有困難所以才召開這樣子的會議那也就希望說各族群可以提供相關意見那所以你們那個唯一你們去開會的人"},{"start":13933.217,"end":13959.352,"text":"在整場會議裡面唯一回答就是這14項是依照轉型正義委員會那邊來的我很傻眼其他意見通通都沒有反應反而與會的其他人士就提出很多的問題所以我就提醒我們在你們現在的計劃原住民族傳統醫療知識復正計劃現在有進行口述歷史的收集"},{"start":13959.992,"end":13982.052,"text":"那這些口述歷史的收集呢除了作為記錄之外呢其實應該有一些是對我們這個原住民傳統食材要納入查詢平台是有幫助的吧應該是有吧有有齁是有記錄一些我們現在一些長者過去的一些傳統對阿所以要請你們好好利用阿好那我是我想這樣子"},{"start":13983.853,"end":14004.084,"text":"希望你們可以設定目標值啦那我不知道你們全部的盤點你們大概多久可以盤點完畢盤點調查完畢目前先掌握的是516項那但是因為我們還要去比對跟那個那個可用視頻藍表裡面那所以還要一段時間對但是你先盤點我講的是盤點對的部分嘛"},{"start":14005.379,"end":14030.975,"text":"所以還要一段時間我們在一個月先做完整個盤點之後那再按到訂定目標值之後再分批陸續再跟所以全部這樣子你預計時間你是要設定目標值啊對我會設定目標值那我先盤點所以你一個月就全部完成一個月先是先盤點那確認之後我們再去訂定一個目標值"},{"start":14031.65,"end":14060.415,"text":"好 如果這個評估完可以直接納入平台是最好如果真的沒有辦法需要經過這個我剛剛講的那些測試的話我想就是說我們再來協調各部會像農業部啦看大家怎麼分工因為這個經費是不會花太多啦那我是希望你們一定要優先把這個品項確認好那請你們要再主動積極特別去跟其他部會開會的時候我覺得處長你要不要考慮自己下來來盯這個案子好 謝謝"},{"start":14061.215,"end":14068.298,"text":"好,謝謝委員。好,謝謝陳盈委員的質詢。謝謝。謝謝羅處長。繼續我們請楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在,請林倩琦委員質詢。謝謝張偉。我們有請主委。有請曾主委。"},{"start":14089.468,"end":14106.955,"text":"主委首先恭喜您期待您在過去在原住民的事務的推動下能夠將這樣的精神繼續在未來幾年您在原民會的整個就任的情況在在職的情況下能夠幫原住民族的業務更上一層"},{"start":14108.977,"end":14131.78,"text":"第一個就是我們知道在前一段時間就這個會期我們剛通過了我們在姓名條例裡面原住民這個原住民的單名列名的這個列名的這樣一個政策所以我這邊要談的是請原民會落實整個推動原住民族登記傳統名字變名措施的三年計劃"},{"start":14133.502,"end":14150.044,"text":"這個部分應該我們先感謝我們的昭緯這個高金委員還有鄭天才委員在我們的整個姓名條例裡面那把這30年的一個推動終於在這個會期給完成了那這個真是歷史上很重要的一個篇章"},{"start":14151.205,"end":14168.679,"text":"接下來就是怎麼樣落實這個部分讓我們所有的族人都能夠以此為傲所以這個部分因為會裡面也編了相關的經費把它作為一個很重要的業務推動所以我們期待這個部分的落實我相信你們會碰到的這個你們要推動的部分"},{"start":14170.28,"end":14196.425,"text":"包括有效整合各機關規範及登記辨名措施以外,第一線人員訓練也是非常重要的,不只在原鄉,包括今天下午我們要關注的都會原住民。這個部分你可能要注意到在原鄉的部分跟在都會裡面第一線的人員怎麼去處理來因應姓名條例,通過之後所會發生的狀況。"},{"start":14197.685,"end":14197.925,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":14223.74,"end":14224.08,"text":"三、審查三、審查三、審查"},{"start":14243.972,"end":14261.548,"text":"假設這個部分裡面其實有一些沉默的成本所以期待原民會在這個區塊能夠更落實那假設真的有困難那有需要本席這邊來協助的話本席非常願意做一個平台然後來讓大家彼此溝通然後瞭解"},{"start":14262.649,"end":14282.585,"text":"三年的三千萬用於整合服務的行銷費用真的要做在這件事情上不要變成其他的一些奇怪的行銷費用這個部分是會裡面應該要注意的在過去發生的事情我這邊也就不多說了我一個建議就是這個三年的三千萬計畫"},{"start":14284.286,"end":14312.445,"text":"應該在這個懶人包的製作要非常的詳實工作指南這兩個部分對於傳統名字的這個比例應該會有一些上升所以你應該可以設定每一年的一個比例值還有在過程當中我們講到各族的命名語言的脈絡那應該在這個部分也讓大家知曉那我們當然知道有一些個別性的問題但是這個命名脈絡對一個文化來講是非常重要的這點我期待在行銷的內容上也能夠做得更詳實"},{"start":14315.908,"end":14329.697,"text":"包括應該是其他各部會也會支援這個部落跟鄉鎮區公所的一個互證單位的接駁也不要忘記都會原住民都會原住民應該是我們接下來必須要非常關注的這一塊"},{"start":14331.638,"end":14332.559,"text":"原住民族博物館"},{"start":14353.345,"end":14372.139,"text":"原住民族博物館我們知道已經在原本是核定在新北市然後後來莫名其妙的連民進黨的這個委員都覺得是笑話一樁那是在那個蔡總統8年前已經該做的跟要做的結果莫名其妙的從新北又挪到了高雄"},{"start":14372.759,"end":14399.119,"text":"好那但是這8年我們不知道完全不知道進度然後對族人或者是我們的社會大眾也沒有任何的說明那至今我們只知道沒有原住民族博物館8年過去了那我不知道我們還要等幾個8年所以這邊我特別跟主委這邊期待希望在您任內那至少我們有一個發聲的具有文化性的一個平台能夠完成"},{"start":14400.944,"end":14413.874,"text":"第三、在原住民族委員會的原住民族文化發展中心是全國唯一的公社原住民族表演藝術團隊那盧灣樂舞劇團會裡面是不是應該考量?既然我們文化"},{"start":14428.584,"end":14428.984,"text":"四、審查四、審查四、審查四、審查"},{"start":14458.117,"end":14485.502,"text":"根委員報告民間也有,民間也有,只是沒有了。但是民間啊,這邊是公社啊。那公社當然是不一樣的。所以最後連帶的就是那文化資產,尤其原住民族的無形文化資產,那應該在會裡面要有更積極的作為。所以以上幾點,以上四個主題,可否請主委這邊在一個月內對我提出比較專業性的報告。然後也請會裡面相關的部門來跟我做業務報告。這四個主題。"},{"start":14488.445,"end":14492.078,"text":"好的謝謝主委好謝謝林謙卿委員的資訊謝謝主委"},{"start":14496.909,"end":14515.98,"text":"登記發言的委員除了不在場者之外其餘的都已經發言完畢了。詢答結束委員丁學忠、張志倫、黃建斌所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位在一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":14518.121,"end":14530.594,"text":"包括委員會我們現在宣讀討論事項所有版本的條文請宣讀然後呢宣讀的同時呢我們與會的官員是可以用餐的現在我們請宣讀謝謝"},{"start":14533.24,"end":14551.237,"text":"法名稱委員高清素梅等提案都會原住民權利發展條例。委員鄭天才等及委員吳立華等提案都是原住民發展條例。委員陳英等提案都是地區原住民族發展條例。第一章委員高清素梅等提案及委員鄭天才等提案章名均為總則。"},{"start":14552.698,"end":14567.287,"text":"第一條委員高清素美等提案政府應對於都會原住民對其健康、安居、融資、就學、就養、就業、就醫及社會適應等事項為保障及協助進而促進共同維護原住民族語言與附贈原住民族文化特質立本條例"},{"start":14568.407,"end":14595.623,"text":"委員鄭天宅等提案,為保障都市原住民之健康安居、融資、就學、語言、文化、習俗、就養、就業、經濟、就醫及社會適應等事項,特制定本條例。委員陳瑩等提案,為保障居住於都市地區之原住民族生存及基本權利以促進其發展,特制定本條例。委員武麗華等提案,為保障都市原住民族生存及基本權利促進都市原住民族之健康安居、融資、就學、就養、就業、就醫及社會適應等事項,特制定本條例。"},{"start":14596.744,"end":14623.042,"text":"二、委員高經宿美等提案。本法用詞定義如下。一、都會原住民系指設計於原住民族地區以外之原住民及設計於原住民族地區而實際居住於原住民族地區以外之原住民。二、原住民族事務幹部只據都會原住民身份之原住民各族群領袖協經會主席、副主席、青年組長及婦女組長。五、委員政天才等提案將都會原住民用語修正為都市原住民其餘同委員高經宿美等提案。"},{"start":14624.571,"end":14640.837,"text":"委員呈應等提案第三條本條利用此定義如下一、都市地區指原住民族地區以外之鄉鎮市區原住民涉及或實際居住達一定人口與商經中央主管機關公告者二、都市地區原住民指涉及或實際居住於都市地區之原住民"},{"start":14641.397,"end":14668.881,"text":"三、都市地區原住民族發展事務指主管機關對於都市地區原住民族所提供之健康安居融資、就學就養、就業就醫、社會適應及其他事項之保障及協助措施。四、都市地區原住民族發展計劃指主管機關為辦理都市地區原住民族發展事務所訂定之行政計劃。五、都市地區原住民族部聚落指原住民族遷居都市地區形成之群居社會﹐並經地方主管機關報請中央主管機關核定者。"},{"start":14670.27,"end":14698.03,"text":"委員吳立華等提案。第三條本條例用詞定義如下。一、都市地區系指原住民族地區以外之鄉鎮市區。二、都市原住民系指居住於都市地區之原住民個人。都市原住民族系指依原住民族基本法經行政院核定之民族且居住於都市地區。第三條,委員高金素美等提案。本法所稱主管機關在中央委員、原住民族委員會在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府。委員鄭天才等提案同委員高金素美等提案。"},{"start":14698.63,"end":14717.089,"text":"委員陳寅等提案第二條。第一項同委員高金素梅等提案。第二項為本條例所定事項涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌者由各目的事業主管機關會同主管機關辦理。委員伍麗華等提案第二條。第一項同委員高金素梅等提案。第二項為本條例所定事項涉及各中央目的事業主管機關執掌者"},{"start":14717.99,"end":14736.935,"text":"由各該機關辦理。第四條,委員高清素美等提案。中央主管機關應設立中央都會原住民權益維護委員會,負責諮詢及審議都會原住民政策事項。前項委員會應由中央主管機關首長為召集人,邀請各相關中央目的事業主管機關、地方主管機關及專家學者組成。"},{"start":14737.575,"end":14754.236,"text":"其中具原住民身份之專家學者不得少於二分之一。單一性別比例不得少於三分之一。其設置辦法由中央主管機關定制。前項所稱之專家學者之選任應顧及原住民族之代表性﹐並考量教育、文化及本法相關事項之專業性。中央都會原住民權益維護委員會應與地方都會﹐"},{"start":14754.876,"end":14769.554,"text":"原住民權益維護委員會定期辦理聯繫匯報委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用語修正為都市原住民中央都會原住民權益維護委員會修正為中央都市原住民權益發展委員會其餘同委員高金素美等提案"},{"start":14770.234,"end":14795.583,"text":"委員陳寅等提案第6條。中央主管機關1、1及目的事業主管機關、地方主管機關、學者、專家及人民團體嚴商並訂定全國都市地區原住民族發展計劃,建立都市地區原住民族發展制評估及回歸機制。前項計劃應每5年檢討修正,必要時得隨時檢討修正。委員5、立法等提案第5條。為保障都市原住民族對地方政府推動原住民族政策之程序參與權利,指向市及縣市政府設置"},{"start":14796.903,"end":14816.505,"text":"任務編組業務涉及原住民族事務者,除法律令有規定外,其成員應有都市原住民族代表。中央及地方主管機關應以首長為召集人,定期邀請學者、專家、都市原住民族代表及教育文化主與徵信衛生福利、就業保障、經濟建設有關機關代表召開都市原住民族發展會議,進行都市原住民族發展政策規劃之審議、諮詢及推動。"},{"start":14818.687,"end":14844.443,"text":"前向各都市原住民族代表在中央主管及地方主管機關居原住民涉及人口之民族應至少一名且原住民族代表不得少於代表總人數三分之二單一性別比例不得少於三分之一為協調溝通都市原住民發展政策中央及地方主管機關應定期辦理協調會議如有需求得由中央及地方主管機關召開臨時協調或溝通會議前向協調溝通會議各原住民族代表出席人數不得少於總出席人數至三分之一"},{"start":14845.263,"end":14861.329,"text":"五、高基數美等提案。直轄市及原住民人口1500人以上之縣市主管機關,應設立直轄市縣市都會原住民權益維護委員會,負責諮詢及審議地方都會原住民政策事項。其餘之縣市政府得失實際需要,設都會原住民權益維護專責單位或專制人"},{"start":14863.51,"end":14878.692,"text":"至專人辦理都會原住民權益維護事務。前項委員會成員中具原住民身份之專家學者不得少於二分之一。單一性別比例不得少於三分之一。其設置規定由地方主管機關定之。委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用語修正為都市原住民。中央都會"},{"start":14880.478,"end":14899.086,"text":"中央都會原住民權益維護委員會修正為中央都市原住民權益發展委員會其餘同委員高金淑美等提案。委員陳寅等提案第5條。中央及地方主管機關應設置專責機關辦理都市地區原住民族發展事務並支持人民團體共同推展都市地區原住民族發展事務。"},{"start":14900.006,"end":14918.127,"text":"第6條委員高經宿美等提案。此下是及原住民人口1500人以上之縣市主管機關應提供充分資源、寬列預算與協助推展原住民族綜合發展政策。委員鄭天才等提案。後段修正委應寬列預算推展都市原住民權益發展事務、其餘同僚高經宿美等提案。委員陳寅等提案第4條。"},{"start":14918.968,"end":14934.324,"text":"政府應致力推動都市地區原住民族發展事務其所需資金費由主管機關及各目的事業主管機關編列預算、委員武力化等提案。第四條,前段修正為政府應致力於都市原住民族各項發展。其餘通委員承認等提案。第二章"},{"start":14935.799,"end":14951.349,"text":"第二章章明原住民族語言第二章文高精素美等提案及文正年才等提案章明均為原住民族語言及文化傳承第七條文高精素美等提案中央及地方政府因鼓勵並強化都會原住民學習原住民族語言與文化課程"},{"start":14951.849,"end":14980.043,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用語修正為都市原住民鼓勵並強化文字修正為辦理其餘通委員高金素美等提案。第8條委員高金素美等提案原住民族語言與文化課程因原住民族語言能立即使用狀況之調查結果有中央主管機關及中央教育主管機關規劃設計前項原住民族語言與文化課程因修習原住民族語言修習時數測驗備用之減免失資及其他應遵循之事項由中央主管機關會商教育部定之"},{"start":14980.903,"end":15004.188,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案同委員高金素美等提案。第九條委員高金素美等提案本法施行6年後都會原住民未取得本法相關服務措施應修訂年度原住民族語言與文化課程之休息時數並取得原住民族語言能力初期認證。委員鄭天才等提案同委員高金素美等提案。第十條委員高金素美等提案中央及地方主管機關應積極維護都會原住民"},{"start":15006.068,"end":15027.48,"text":"與機關、構、學校、團體、教會及家庭使用原住民族語言權利,獎勵及補助以下原住民族語言發展事務。一、保障學齡前幼兒學習原住民族語言之機會。二、運用科技提高都會原住民接觸及學習族語之機會。三、營造原住民族語言使用友善環境。四、鼓勵狹內教會使用原住民語言宣教及辦理各類教會事工活動。"},{"start":15028.3,"end":15046.026,"text":"五、鼓勵原住民族家庭與日常生活使用主語並營造家庭主語環境。六、使用原住民族語言之原住民族傳統記憶、文化傳承、樂舞、展演、體育競賽等活動。七、原住民族個人家庭人民團體使用原住民族語言所需之教學、設備、翻譯或其他活動。八、其他主管機關認定之重要事項。"},{"start":15047.026,"end":15073.352,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用語修正為都市原住民第4款鼓勵修正為補助其餘通委員高金素美等提案。委員陳寅等提案第12條政府應鼓勵並保障都市地區原住民族與機關構學校團體及家庭使用原住民族語言並獎勵及補助原住民族語言發展事務。委員伍麗華等提案第10條序文前段中央及地方主管機關文字修正為政府第一款、第三款、第六款增加都市地區文字"},{"start":15073.892,"end":15095.026,"text":"第一款後段增加鼓勵及表揚所屬學校落實都市地區原住民學生之族語及文化課程。第六款第七款前段增加優先補助等文字其餘同委員鄭天才等提案。第十一條委員高金素美等提案。中央及地方主管機關得失狀況辦理原住民族語言與文化遠距課程。委員鄭天才等提案同委員高金素美等提案。第十二條"},{"start":15096.57,"end":15116.018,"text":"委員高精素美等提案,中央及地方主管機關因都會原住民休息之成果及取得原住民族語言能力認證之集數規劃相關獎勵措施,前項獎勵之方法、基準處理方式及其他應遵實項之規則,由地方主管機關定之。委員鄭天才等提案,將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民及預通委員高精素美等提案。"},{"start":15116.738,"end":15134.698,"text":"第13條文高精素美等提案。地方主管機關應依據各族群特色定期舉辦原住民族歲時記憶傳統記憶體育競賽樂舞藝能文化創意影視文化文物展覽及文化藝術等推展活動。中央及地方主管機關應兼職原住民族之歷史發展文化特性及人文資產資料庫。"},{"start":15136.019,"end":15154.62,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案同委員高清素美等提案。委員陳瑩等提案第10條政府應積極推展都市地區原住民族參與原住民族文化傳承及保存。必應依據各族群特色協助或舉辦碎石祭儀活動或規劃推動都市地區原住民族返鄉參加部落碎石祭儀。委員武麗華等提案第8條"},{"start":15155.501,"end":15170.946,"text":"增加凝結原住民族地區部落等文字及與同委員成員等提案第10條。第14條,委員高金素美等提案,中央及地方主管機關應保存、維護及傳承原住民族教育語言及文化,並協助原住民族文化產業及培育專業人才。"},{"start":15172.706,"end":15190.568,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案同委員高金素美等提案。委員陳瑩等提案第14條政府應結合公私力機關構法人或團體建構都市地區原住民族終身學習環境,促進原住民族文化傳承與創新。委員伍麗華等提案第12條同委員高金素美等提案第14條並著作文字修正。"},{"start":15191.289,"end":15209.487,"text":"第15條,文高精素美等提案,地方主管機關設置原住民族文化會館,並應參助人口分布及實際需要與原住民居居地區應設置具有都會原住民文化特色的集會所,辦理原住民族語言與文化事務,以凝聚都會原住民傳承文化之向心力,並提供本法各類協助措施。"},{"start":15210.408,"end":15236.388,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民、區域同源、高精素美等提案。委員陳瑛等提案第11條政府應考量都市地區原住民族之文化傳承及發展需求提供適當空間以作為文化傳序場域並於設置之原住民族文化場館及相關空間進行文化保存傳承與發展。辦理原住民族文化之傳承展示收藏、教育、社群溝通、碎石機以及其他原住民族文化相關活動。"},{"start":15237.088,"end":15246.761,"text":"委員武力化等提案第9條,同委員陳怡等提案第11條,並著作文字修正。第三章,委員高晶素梅等提案及委員鄭天才等提案,章明均為都會員"},{"start":15248.601,"end":15273.448,"text":"委員高金、宿美等提案章名為都會原住民權益保障。委員鄭天才等提案章名為都市原住民權益保障。第16條委員高金、宿美等提案中央主管機關應定期辦理都會原住民健康、安居、融資、就學、就養、就業、就醫及社會適應之調查公布調查結果並建立都會原住民基本資料庫。地方主管應配合中央主管機關應協助辦理前項之調查並依調查結果規劃建立原住民族社會安全體系。"},{"start":15274.508,"end":15290.117,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民第一項增加語言文化及經濟等文字其餘同委員高金素美等提案第一項。第二項為中央主管機關因調查結果規劃建立原住民族社會安全體系訂定都市原住民發展計劃。"},{"start":15291.258,"end":15307.798,"text":"委員承認等提案第9條。中央各目的事業主管機關辦理各項調查統計及專體分析時應納入原住民族地區及都市地區之分析統計。作為各項都市地區原住民族發展事務之規劃參舉,中央主管機關應建立都市地區原住民族資料庫,"},{"start":15308.419,"end":15326.148,"text":"地方主管機關應定期辦理都市地區原住民族生活狀況調查及建立人口資料委員五立化等提案第7條。第一項同委員呈迎等提案第9條第一項並著作文字修正。第二項地方政府應定期辦理協助所轄都市地區原住民族生活狀況調查及建立人口資料庫。"},{"start":15327.148,"end":15349.887,"text":"第17條委員高精素美等提案,為確保原住民族語言與文化傳承,中央主管機關應會同地方主管機關鼓勵並生育原住民族人口,應就公共化、教保、育兒津貼、托育機制及友善生養等事項予以輔助。前項育兒相關附加輔助措施、輔助基準、處理方式及其他應遵行事項之規則,由中央主管機關、會商教育部、會生福利部等相關機關定之。"},{"start":15351.508,"end":15370.977,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案。第二項其他應遵行事項之規則修正為其他應遵行事項之辦法其餘通委員高金素美等提案。第18條委員高金素美等提案。中央主管機關及中央衛生主管機關應會同地方主管機關依都會原住民基本資料庫是其需求提供相關附加保障之事項如下。"},{"start":15371.517,"end":15390.875,"text":"一、都會原住民健康促進及衛生保健服務服務措施。二、年滿55歲以上都會原住民之文康交流活動及長期照護服務等相關服務措施。三、原住民婦女之家庭服務訪查、婦女權益賠利及輔導婦女社團參與等相關服務措施。四、原住民兒童及少年之多元文化語言學習之服務措施。"},{"start":15391.576,"end":15420.697,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民區域同委員高金素美等提案。委員陳英等提案第17條政府應規劃都市地區原住民組織社會福利保險醫療及其他輔助措施並增加都市地區原住民族獲得原住制管道以確保都市地區原住民族基本需求並促進其身體及心理健康文化及社會安全政府應積極協助主動提供適當場地推動都市地區原住民及人民團體優先設立符合都市地區原住民族特性之文化照顧服務"},{"start":15421.337,"end":15439.455,"text":"委員武力化等提案第14條為確保都市地區原住民族基本需求政府應規劃各項社會福利醫療與輔助措施以增加都市地區原住民族獲得原住制管道政府應積極協助主動提供適當場地輔導都市地區原住民個人及屯民團體優先設立符合都市地區原住民族特性之文化照顧服務"},{"start":15440.436,"end":15469.481,"text":"第19條委員高金素美等提案中央主管機關及地方主管機關因多會原住民基本資料庫就多會原住民住宅建構補助租屋津貼住宅貸款利息補貼及獎勵與新辦原住民族社會住宅等相關事項因是其需求與協助並訂立原住民族住宅政策中央主管機關及地方主管機關新辦之社會住宅因因案轄區內多會原住民人口數所佔轄區原住民總人口數之比例分配並保障原住民入住社會住宅"},{"start":15469.961,"end":15483.756,"text":"前項分配之比例不得低於原住民族人口數占全國總人口數比例。第一項都會原住民相關附加建構或租屋原住民社會住宅相關輔助措施、輔助基準、處理方式及其他應遵行事項之規則由地方主管機關定之。"},{"start":15485.057,"end":15507.733,"text":"委員政天才等提案將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民。第二項,佔下居原住民總人口數之比例,修正為佔全國原住民總人口數之比例。第三項,一列第二項後段。第四項,其他應遵行事項之規則由地方主管機關定制,修正為其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央主管機關定制,其餘同委員、高金屬美等提案。"},{"start":15508.453,"end":15527.222,"text":"委員呈應等提案第20條政府應策定都市地區原住民族住宅政策補助建構修繕住宅租金補貼住宅貸款利息補貼及獎勵新辦原住民族社會住宅並得義務價指數與消費水準調整補助資格及額度政府新辦這社會住宅至少應按下區內都市地區原住民族人口數所佔"},{"start":15527.802,"end":15551.514,"text":"全國原住民總人口數之比率分配並保障都市地區原住民族入住社會住宅並且不得低於原住民族人口數在全國總人口數之比率。委員吳麗華等提案第17條。第一項後段修正為並積極推動都市原住民族聚落營造。第二項前段修正為直轄市或縣市政府並著作文字修正。其餘同委員陳瑩等提案第20條。"},{"start":15553.015,"end":15573.336,"text":"委員呈應等提案第19條政府應推動都市地區原住民族經濟及產業發展建構原住民族地區及都市地區原住民族產業連結促進通路拓展及原住民族業者之合作並得以專責法人辦理相關業務。中央主管機關應兼職都市地區原住民族事業體資料庫充分掌握都市地區原住民族經濟及產業發展動態。"},{"start":15575.839,"end":15590.847,"text":"委員吳立華等提案第16條。第一項前段推動修正為輔導並著作文字修正區域通文成因等提案第19條第一項。第二項為為了解經濟及產業發展動態政府應建制及定期更新事業體資料庫。第二十條為"},{"start":15592.068,"end":15603.973,"text":"高精素美等提案。中央主管機關應會同中央勞動主管機關就原住民及非原住民就業狀況調查規劃施以之都會原住民就業服務與職業訓練課程。主管機關應提供前廂就業服務與職業訓練課程,與其職業訓練期間並得提供生活津貼之補助。"},{"start":15608.895,"end":15623.053,"text":"主管機關提供第一項就業服務與職業訓練課程之方式,得以提供補助就業考試補習費用為之。前三項相關附加補助條件及數額、輔助基準、處理方式及其他應遵行事項之規則,由中央主管機關定之。"},{"start":15624.375,"end":15639.389,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民。第二項得提供生活津貼之補助修正為應提供生活津貼之補助。第四項其他應遵行事項之規則修正為其他應遵行事項之辦法。其餘同委員高金素美等提案。"},{"start":15640.748,"end":15657.747,"text":"第21條委員高金素美等提案都會原住民依法成立原住民合作社會協會者與本法施行後之6年內依免徵所得稅及營業稅。地方主管機關依協助並輔導都會原住民成立原住民合作社會協會,其輔助至辦理由地方主管機關定之。"},{"start":15658.368,"end":15677.133,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用語修正為都市原住民規則修正為辦法、區域通用於高精素棉等提案。委員陳寅等提案第7條地方主管機關應邀及目的事業主管機關學者專家及人民團體聯商並因全國都市地區原住民族發展計劃訂定該職轄市縣市都市地區原住民族發展計劃"},{"start":15677.933,"end":15705.135,"text":"地方主管機關為處理跨區域都市地區原住民族發展事務﹐得與其他地方主管機關成立區域合作組織訂定協議﹐行政契約或以其他方式合作﹐並報中央主管機關備查。第二十二條,委員高清素美等提案﹐各級政府、機關、公立學校及公立事業機構﹐辦理位於非原住民族地區未達政府採購法公告金額之採購﹐得保留10%採購件數由原住民個人、機構、法人或團體承包。委員鄭天才等提案,同委員高清素美等提案﹐"},{"start":15705.595,"end":15722.844,"text":"委員陳寅等提案第18條將非原住民族地區文資修正為都市地區其餘同委員高金素美等提案委員伍麗華等提案第15條將10%修正為30%後段增加但原住民個人機構法人或團體無法承包者不在此限其餘同委員陳寅等提案第18條"},{"start":15724.225,"end":15752.324,"text":"委員呈應等提案第21條政府應積極營造都市地區原住民族聚落提供安全健康舒適及能及永續之居住環境本條例施行前之都市與地區原住民族聚落未依依法禁止限制建築地區公共設施預定地或經政府認定之安全堪於地區者該聚落所在地之地方主管機關應勘選依法得為建築地理區為安全無虞且適宜居住之土地規劃作為千建住宅安置使用並協助得建物取得建物合法使用權利"},{"start":15752.944,"end":15772.679,"text":"前項簽件住宅所需之土地得徵收申請撥用或由都市地區原住民族聚落申請成租為武力化等提案第18條。第一項前段至本條例施行前至都市地區原住民族聚落修正為聚落。中段至地方主管機關修正為直轄市或縣市政府。簽件文字修正為新辦。其餘同委員呈應等提案第21條。第二、三項"},{"start":15774.941,"end":15789.907,"text":"第二十三條,委員高晶素美等提案,主管機關依原住民族工作權保障法金融都會原住民時,應依其原住民族語言能力認證之程度優先禁用。委員鄭天才等提案,將都會原住民誘餘修正為都市原住民其餘同委員高晶素美等提案。"},{"start":15790.587,"end":15812.338,"text":"第二十四條,委員高經宿美等提案,地方主管機關應針對競用一定比例都會原住民與工作廠商予以獎勵,前項競用之比例、特殊之事蹟、特著住之事項、獎勵之方法、基準、處理方式及其他應遵行事項之規則,由地方主管機關定之。委員鄭天才等提案,將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民,其餘同委員高經宿美等提案。"},{"start":15812.978,"end":15837.503,"text":"第二十五條委員高精素棉等提案。中央及地方主管機關應規劃相關課程以強化都會原住民學前教育及青少年課業輔導。委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民其餘同委員高精素棉等提案。委員陳瑩等提案第十三條地方主管機關應保障都市地區原住民族學生之學習權利﹐主動發掘特殊潛能並因是都市地區原住民族學生社會適應需要辦理課業及生活輔導。"},{"start":15839.417,"end":15867.363,"text":"委員吳立華等提案第12條地方交易及原住民族主管機關應共同保障就讀高級中等以下學校之都市地區原住民學生學習權利﹐得主動發掘原住民學生特殊潛能﹐拔除原住民族青年人才﹐得市都市地區原住民族學生社會適應需要辦理課業及生活輔導。第二十六條委員高進素美等提案地方主管機關辦理本法鼓勵輔導或補助事項有經費不足情形中央政府應是實際需要予以補助。"},{"start":15868.283,"end":15896.145,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案同委員高慶素美等提案。第二十七條委員高慶素美等提案。主管機關一、都會原住民修習原住民族語言與文化課程之成果及原住民族語言能力認證集數規劃本法第十七條至第二十五條之輔助措施之補助基準、前項附加輔助措施之級距基準、審查程序處理方式及其他應遵實項之規則由中央主管機關定之。委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民"},{"start":15896.505,"end":15914.501,"text":"第一項前段主管機關修正為中央主管機關其餘同委員高經宿美等提案。第二十八條委員高經宿美等提案此下涉及原住民人口1500人以上之縣市其調解委員會應致一席以上原住民族委員以協助處理原住民族調解事務。"},{"start":15915.482,"end":15944.817,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將調節委員會修正為鄉鎮市調節委員會其餘同委員高經宿美等提案。委員陳英等提案第8條。第1項同委員鄭天才等提案並著作文字修正。第二項為發生於都市地區之勞資爭議勞方當事人有五分之一以上委員住民者勞工主管機關指派之調節委員或仲裁委員中應至少有一人委員住民。委員伍麗華等提案第6條。前段修正委員住民涉及達1500人以上之都市地區其餘同委員高經宿美等提案。"},{"start":15945.497,"end":15970.53,"text":"第29條,委員高階素美等提案。都會原住民涉有歧視,得向地方主管機關申訴。地方主管機關應申訴或主動執行歧視情勢者,應即將案件交付直轄市縣市都會原住民權益維護委員會調查。前項調查應經查證,並與當事人及利害關係人到場陳述申辯之機會。調查結果,論有歧視情勢者,地方主管機關應定相當期限,命歧視者改真或除去歧視結果,預期不改真或除去者。"},{"start":15970.95,"end":15986.959,"text":"五、處新台幣5萬元以上、50萬元以下之罰款,並得連續與處罰至改正為止。不符前項之處分者得提起訴願及行政訴訟。五、委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用以修正為都市原住民,刪除第5項,其餘同委員高金素美等提案。五、委員陳瑩穎等提案第16條,"},{"start":15987.919,"end":16015.567,"text":"政府應積極落實多元文化環境﹐促進族群平等發展﹐避免都市地區原住民族遭受歧視。原住民族應遭受歧視致其權利受不法侵害者﹐各該目的事業主管機關應會同主管機關協助維護其權利。其應遭受歧視致權利受不法侵害之予者﹐應協助防止之。第三十條﹐委員高金素美等提案。受歧視人請求損害賠償者﹐除得請求民法第216條所定之損害外﹐並得請求適當之撫慰金﹐委員鄭天才等提案。"},{"start":16017.927,"end":16038.566,"text":"受歧視人請求損害賠償者,主管機關應請法律輔助基金會提供必要之法律輔助。第三十一條,委員高晶素美等提案,地方主管機關應將據重要性質反歧視案件審理結果公告或公開上網。委員鄭天才等提案同委員高晶素美等提案。第四章,委員高晶素美等提案及委員鄭天才等提案,章明君為負責。"},{"start":16039.787,"end":16052.7,"text":"第32條委員高清素美等提案。中央及地方主管機關應定情會整併製作都會原住民權益與輔助手冊。前項手冊地方主管機關應以定期寄送及公告周知之方式通知狹內之都會原住民家戶。"},{"start":16053.715,"end":16077.271,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民其預通委員高經宿美等提案。第三十三條委員高經宿美等提案。中央及地方主管機關應以狹下閒置之空間優先提供都會原住民作為下列之使用。一、學習原住民族語言文化課程。二、課業輔導及自修與閱覽。三、青年創業前向青年創業服務的收取費用及收費項目及金額由地方主管機關定之。"},{"start":16078.412,"end":16098.727,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用與修正為都市原住民其餘同委員高進宿美等提案。第三十四條委員高進宿美等提案地方主管機關應設置都會原住民族駐居及就業輔助單一窗口以協助都會原住民給予及時協助。委員鄭天才等提案將都會原住民用與修正為都市原住民其餘同委員高進宿美等提案。"},{"start":16099.548,"end":16122.002,"text":"委員高經宿美等提案第35條,地方主管機關得參著人口分布及實際需要與原住民居居地區應設置具有都會原住民文化特色的集會所。委員高經宿美等提案第36條,都會原住民得成立社團法人原住民族自治協經會,其設立程序組織任務兼經費監督輔導及其他有關事項之辦法,由地方主管機關定之。"},{"start":16123.283,"end":16149.452,"text":"地方主管機關應會同社團法人原住民族自治協會協競會辦理都會原住民之服務事項並提供原住民族自治協競會必要之人力物力及經費補助。其相關事項之規定由地方主管機關定之。委員鄭天才等提案第35條將都會原住民用語修正為都市原住民其餘同委員高金素美等提案。第37條委員高金素美等提案地方主管機關應扶植原住民族社團發展鼓勵舉辦為健全"},{"start":16151.012,"end":16167.618,"text":"五、都會原住民族事務幹部功能應定其辦理、文化、法令及行政事務等培力工作。六、地方主管機關應扶植建立都會原住民傳統文化制度並尊重各民族領導人及幹部推舉制度。地方主管機關是其需要的編列原住民族領導人及幹部事務作業費。"},{"start":16169.238,"end":16188.392,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案第36條,將都會原住民用語修正為都市原住民其與同委員高金素美等提案。委員陳瑩等提案第15條,地方主管機關應尊重都市地區原住民族一期傳統習慣推舉原住民族團體領袖及幹部,並得編列經費推動都市地區原住民族團體建立文化發展機制,以傳承維繫其傳統社會制度。"},{"start":16191.465,"end":16217.717,"text":"前項領袖及幹部之名稱應尊重各族傳統習慣並應優先使用該族語言委員無力化等提案第13條。為建立都市地區原住民族文化發展機制及健全其社會制度政府應尊重原住民族部落及原住民族團體一期傳統習慣推舉原住民族領導人及幹部並得編列原住民族領導人及幹部實務作業費領導人之稱呼尊重各族傳統習慣。第38條委員高金素美等提案"},{"start":16218.197,"end":16239.593,"text":"地方主管機關為鼓勵都會原住民定期與部落聯繫因定期定額補助返鄉遂時記憶交通費用。前項相關補助條件及數額輔助基準、處理方式及其他應遵行事項之規則由地方主管機關定之。委員鄭天才等提案第37條將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民其餘同委員高級宿美等提案。"},{"start":16240.333,"end":16269.442,"text":"第39條委員高精素美等提案地方主管機關應協助都會原住民定期與部落召開聯繫協調會議其相關事項之規定由中央主管機關定之。委員鄭天才等提案第38條將都會原住民用於修正為都市原住民及與同委員高精素美等提案。第40條委員高精素美等提案地方主管機關應設置原住民族發展基金辦理原住民族教育文化社會福利及產業建設與發展相關業務其收支保管及運用辦法由中央由主管機關定另定之。"},{"start":16270.242,"end":16292.995,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案第39條。前段修正為中央主管機關應設置都市原住民族發展基金其餘同委員高清素美等提案。第41條委員高清素美等提案本條例施行細則由主管機關定之。委員鄭天才等提案第40條委員陳英等提案第22條及委員吳麗華等提案第19條。均同高委員高清素美等提案。"},{"start":16294.056,"end":16306.588,"text":"第42條,委員高金素美等提案本條例自公佈日施行。委員鄭天才等提案第41條,委員陳盈等提案第23條,及委員吳麗華等提案第20條,均同委員高金素美等提案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":16309.264,"end":16323.698,"text":"本日議程討論的事項所列的議案令定期繼續審查。在本日會議散會之前,主席對於維民會主委今日備詢的情形,我有幾點聲明。"},{"start":16325.439,"end":16346.84,"text":"原住民族委員會是原住民族中央主管機關業務在於統合原住民族的政策保障原住民族的權益但是今天原民會主委備詢的表現顯現對於業務申書預算不熟悉這嚴重影響各位關心原住民族政策的立委同仁們詮詢原住民的業務"},{"start":16348.141,"end":16374.891,"text":"身為安排專案報告的召委我感到非常的痛心因此為了主任的權益我將另期安排原住民族委員會的相關專案報告讓各界也讓各位關心原住民政策的委員再一次的能夠瞭解相關政策的機會所以今日散會之前呢也請原民會主委回去跟原民會相關的局處業務"},{"start":16377.025,"end":16384.891,"text":"好好的再重新提一份專案報告來。我想我會再另起審查。本日的會議到這裡結束。我們現在三會。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"15969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15969","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db1dc129ce818bd32869e13353c436ea853be8d109af184be436d1ded34696ade15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T08:31:17+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-30T12:38:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14803,"委員發言時間":"08:31:17 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MANGA"},{"start":1193.439,"end":1193.559,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":1364.919,"end":1365.978,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1439.36,"end":1443.404,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":1581.447,"end":1598.895,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":1771.9,"end":1773.965,"text":"主席"},{"start":1807.54,"end":1830.897,"text":"好,我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢好,我們本日議程排定的是國家發展委員會的業務報告我們現在就請國家發展委員會劉靜卿主委來做報告我們在此也恭喜主委"},{"start":1842.739,"end":1862.725,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好謝謝各位給我們機會來報告我們國安會的業務發展以及我們打算怎麼去進行未來的四年的執政首先報告的是總體經濟情勢目前我們看下來今年經濟的成長會在3.5%以上會優於去年的1.31%"},{"start":1867.967,"end":1890.857,"text":"那整個我們中環情勢裡面看到一些機會也看到一些要密切注意的風險那我們會密切觀察跟及時因應那整個經濟的形成3.5怎麼保障一定做得到跟未來怎麼樣更好來自於幾個部位那政府的投資的部分已經定型了"},{"start":1891.677,"end":1909.448,"text":"那有三個地方會影響我們下半年的經濟發展第一個是出口第二個是資本的形成第三個是民間消費那出口的部分呢因為AI正在大幅的崛起從1到4月的外銷情形來看整體的出口會變得非常的好那我們也預估在採購經理人指數"},{"start":1911.169,"end":1940.033,"text":"也會從4949%突破到NT50%進入擴張期所以下半年的整體會是不錯但是有幾個我們必須注意到的比如說匯率對我們很多傳統產業的影響這些我們都會再密切注意資本的形成的部分在AI半導體的投資會繼續加強第二個在數位跟淨零的部分的投資也會增加這個部分也會有機會往上走再來是我們現在看到的是零售餐飲的"},{"start":1941.253,"end":1967.939,"text":"整個民營消費的數字也是非常的還不錯那股市的活絡也造成這個財務效應那我們當然會密切觀察電價上漲會不會有影響我們現在進行每個月的CPI的監測那這樣的一個結果其實在過去10年來講3.5以上各位可以看到這上面的數字只有在14年跟21年有高過3.5所以相較過去來講今年算是一個比較好的一年"},{"start":1968.439,"end":1987.619,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":1988.263,"end":2007.771,"text":"我們從整個達到國家希望工程、民主和平、創新繁榮與公益永續我們希望在三個月內做好我們的國家發展計畫未來四年的發展將會由創新經濟、均衡台灣、效能政府為基礎的主軸發展"},{"start":2009.171,"end":2027.226,"text":"提宗我們會大量的用數位化跟效率革新的改善來往這條路上邁進那細節的部分在下一頁我會開始進行說明創新經濟那國家發展計畫是我們最重要的發展那這個發展計畫將會有五個重點形成我們的策略"},{"start":2028.567,"end":2052.003,"text":"從總統的政見到我們總理經濟的目標就是我們會制定每一年的成長率跟人均GDP、失業率等等的經濟指標同時我們會持續觀測瞭解國際發展趨勢跟競爭的趨勢然後再加上國內的輿情像譬如說我們看到財富的平均或者是居住"},{"start":2052.643,"end":2075.283,"text":"的問題那這些我們會整個參雜進來再加上各部會的想法跟意見形成國家策略然後呢依據策略展開我們的國家計畫好那大概是8月份我們會完成那另外一個部分呢就會進入到這個經濟的發展創新經濟怎麼做我們會打造信賴無產業成立台灣他太靠"},{"start":2075.883,"end":2076.363,"text":"發言委員會"},{"start":2102.33,"end":2121.24,"text":"主要兩件事情第一個是我們所有的企業發展我們看起來半導體跟AI雙核心這兩個產業會帶動台灣高速的成長那這兩個高速成長我們必須把它紮住然後呢利用AI跟半導體的能力去帶動其他產業的發展所以呢我們也因此就可以讓這個產業做得比較好一點那台灣Tech Hub呢將會在"},{"start":2124.241,"end":2133.797,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2135.9,"end":2149.269,"text":"為什麼我們會從AI半導體的角度來看的話 這上面我們有一個分析我們可以看得到晶圓代工我們台灣已經是世界第一 佔全球的產值的65%我們的封測佔了53% 已經穩穩的佔在全球最領先的位置"},{"start":2156.934,"end":2174.944,"text":"但是呢,我們在IC設計、半導體的設備跟半導體的材料上面還有很大的增長空間那為了發展這一部分呢,將這個地方將是我們要努力的方向,我們希望能讓產值翻倍那尤其設備我希望有機會我們要做翻三倍,所以這些都會納入我們未來國家發展計畫"},{"start":2177.325,"end":2202.206,"text":"那這幾個翻倍的計畫出來會帶動比較多的高薪就業人口數那高薪就業人口數增加之後稅收會增加也可以進行更進一步的這個福利的分配那所得的再分配那這樣的話可以造福到比較低階的人那另外就是在AI的部分我們可以看到這條是AI的"},{"start":2202.907,"end":2205.369,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2227.004,"end":2250.329,"text":"我們希望從AI的兩個方向去發展我們從晶圓代工所產生的CHIP到IC的設計到散熱都有一定的領先地位IC的部分我們剛剛有提到我們會再加強的去做半導體的推估第二個部分是研究的部分研究的部分是台灣過去比較弱的地方所以造成台灣一直是技術的路超過"},{"start":2251.169,"end":2251.269,"text":"臺灣大學"},{"start":2270.979,"end":2286.408,"text":"AI的下一步發展也會進我們的TechHub還有次世代的這個這個半導體會進TechHub然後呢量子電腦進TechHub所以它會整個整合在一起那另外我們在拉第二條研究的發展路線會是跟中央研究院的進一步的合作"},{"start":2287.992,"end":2313.005,"text":"另外一個部分,所以我們可以把源頭拉高,創造更多的產業附加價值,帶動更多的高薪就業機會我個人認為台灣現在的就業率已經很低了,我們要創造的是高薪的就業機會讓大家有更多的高薪工作機會右邊的部分是我們未來要重點發展的一個部分,就是整個AI運用的價值"},{"start":2313.965,"end":2333.022,"text":"整個AI Server的發展它是一條曲線目前來講它的重點在於研究跟實驗的部分那已經衝出一個相當的量了下一波要有更高的量就是在應用面那應用面的部分我們目前台灣在這個部分我們只有1%可是整個全球的市場大概有3.97兆"},{"start":2334.784,"end":2357.389,"text":"我們希望從這3.97兆去擴大我們的佔有率讓台灣可以在AI的世界裡面站穩亞洲的核心那這個部分的培養會搭配我後面說的服務業的培養因為我們希望這個地方台灣我們檢核台灣硬體的部分我們是世界領先的位置但是在軟體的部分我們是比較中間偏後的位置"},{"start":2358.529,"end":2379.525,"text":"簡單的一個數字說明台灣在2021年我們在這個資訊軟體服務業的GDP佔比大概是1.2但是美國是4.79對岸的中國是3.8所以我們這個地方的發展必須要翻倍的往上走那這個翻倍往上走有在於人才的部分的整理那我後面會進一步的說明"},{"start":2380.845,"end":2408.562,"text":"另外一個部分我們要打造明星產業變成我們的復國群山我們現在其實有很好的經驗代工是復國群山因為只要鍛煉就鍛煉了但是各位看一下這個圖我們在SERP部分佔了90%IC封裝我們佔了53%另外我們拉出三個產業這幾個產業都有15%以上的全球市佔率我們希望把這些產業拉到30%"},{"start":2410.003,"end":2432.498,"text":"的全球市佔率那這樣的話呢我們會有五座山、六座山達到全球市佔超過30%就足以影響全球供應鏈那塑造台灣更重要的全球經濟地位跟影響力那這幾個重點會讓我們更穩固更有未來那這裡也會帶動更多的高薪就業機會那我們希望從這裡去發展"},{"start":2434.159,"end":2458.346,"text":"另外為了照顧產業的平衡發展我們還是希望能夠注意到所有的人民服務業我們可以看到左邊的圖62%的就業人口在這個地方我們不重視是不行的可是如果我們環顧製造業跟服務業來講製造業很明顯的他在全球的影響力是明顯的出來了但是服務業的全球影響力還有待提升我們為了AI的發展我們會先拉我們這邊右邊的資訊服務業"},{"start":2464.107,"end":2481.652,"text":"這個資訊服務業現在我們最大的困難是人才的培育所以它會結合我們國家會的人才政策也就是說我們在未來的人才上面我們必須去主動積極的去找不是現在是著重於法令的鬆綁那我們將來會是主動的積極的去獵財到美國去獵財到美國比較先進我們去獵財到歐洲去獵財我們希望吸引更多人進來那這樣的話可以解決我們短期資訊服務業AI人才的缺口"},{"start":2493.536,"end":2509.428,"text":"那硬體的缺口是現在國內目前正在做的部分那加起來之後就會讓我們整個在解決方案上面有機會大幅的提升那另外在左邊的部分是比較稍微附加價值或成長比較低的這個服務業"},{"start":2511.63,"end":2540.521,"text":"那這幾個服務業呢我們打算是透過協助兩件事第一個透過我們臺灣比較強的AI智慧化讓數位化讓他們的營運效率跟他的市場接觸就是通路策略會做得比較好之外更有競爭力之外我們會鼓勵他們進行產業控股然後呢結合他的力量因為要走出世界的話他需要比較大的經濟規模比較容易走出去那我們希望透過這樣的方式控股的方式因為控股的架構"},{"start":2541.181,"end":2541.361,"text":"獲得獲得"},{"start":2557.014,"end":2557.394,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":2584.775,"end":2612.51,"text":"那翻倍的話呢這不是資金到位的問題而是一個生態系的問題這個生態系就是說資金進來引進來之後呢他必須要有比較優質的投資標的第二個要足夠的投資標的否則錢進來沒有那麼多的標的那我們就變成必須把這三個循環做出來就第一個讓投資標的增加讓投資標的增加這也會利用台灣tech hub去做台灣tech hub我們參考的香港tech hub或者是"},{"start":2613.15,"end":2613.972,"text":"在學校重新教育創業過程"},{"start":2628.59,"end":2651.194,"text":"他是一個end-to-end的不是只教你怎麼研發還教你怎麼樣去經營那第二個部分是鼓勵博士後把博士後研究拿出來做那這幾個會再加上我們成熟企業的創新會一起進來那當然我們還是會去吸引國外尤其是比較優秀在美國的華人回到台灣來那我們打算利用這樣的方式呢"},{"start":2651.674,"end":2658.521,"text":"獲得資金進來,目前我們是有一個還不錯的規劃應該是沒有問題所以這個生態系建立起來之後台灣的整個活絡度就會比例成翻倍而且是每年翻倍"},{"start":2677.058,"end":2700.144,"text":"但是不管怎麼樣沒有足夠的人是沒有用的所以我們將來會從過去法令鬆綁我們開放金卡之外我們會再進一步做人才的吸引再進一步的去做人才的獵取為什麼呢?因為我們過去的研究我在民間的時候研究我們大概未來20年50年都是一個人才戰爭全球的認定都是一樣的"},{"start":2703.965,"end":2731.537,"text":"那在這個少子化的過程裡面我們必須解決短期的問題跟長期的問題短期的問題是我們尖端人才必須被補足那尖端人才必須要補足呢它有兩種一種是我們標定的我們前面所提的幾個產業我們現在正在做統計已經外面單位在幫我們做人才需求統計我們會找出需求與供給的差異之後我們會跟企業合作一起到美國去攬財去找這些人進來那我在外商待過我認為機會很大"},{"start":2733.339,"end":2754.701,"text":"為什麼?因為在外商裁員的話呢都是黃皮膚的先裁再裁黑皮膚再裁那個所以我在過去IBM也好在PWC也好我們看到的是這樣所以呢很多人會遇到玻璃天花板很多人遇到父母要身體的問題那我相信願意回來的人是不少但是我得解決他的生態系生態系就是他小孩的就學問題"},{"start":2756.222,"end":2757.443,"text":"國際基金主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2785.825,"end":2808.585,"text":"這樣一個環境來做的話會讓我們的人才可以在比較短的時間補足而且是一個對的缺口的補足在解決我們產業創新跟我們產業發展跟所需要的人才跟生態系的問題之後我們還需要到均衡台灣讓各地的希望都存在我們也要發展地方的特色"},{"start":2810.046,"end":2827.943,"text":"所以我們會持續我們在地方創生的運作但地方創生的運作我們會希望做出我們現在過去做得不錯我們在各個地方都有非常多的創生的這個成功案例那這些成功案例下一步我們希望整合成功案例"},{"start":2828.183,"end":2845.998,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2846.358,"end":2865.079,"text":"第二部分是團結,我們會把地方各個有利因素整合在一起,帶動各方面,這樣的話就可以有比較好的效果。我們會先找兩個點做實驗,成功之後我們會開始推廣到各個地方去,讓我們的地方再生有更一步的不一樣。"},{"start":2868.642,"end":2892.067,"text":"最後是在離島的部分我們會持續發展從離島的水電系統海洋的文化那我們特別會發展的一部分就是在數位醫療的部分跟離島醫療的部分那我們其實現在每一年有增加100位公費生在西醫的部分50位公費生是在亞裔的部分那這些人將來都要進到偏遠地區"},{"start":2892.927,"end":2908.49,"text":"．"},{"start":2908.85,"end":2928.806,"text":"發展它的北核心、中核心、南核心的計畫從歷史的文化、休閒區到大學城那大學城的部分已經交由中興大學開始在進行的那這個另外我們在歷史文化區裡面現在是以創生跟創新的園區為主那另外接下來就要把休閒生活區做進一步的整理"},{"start":2929.326,"end":2959.326,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":2959.446,"end":2981.384,"text":"那這個數位績效管理系統將來會讓我們可以隨時調出來每一個鄉鎮甚至我們立委的選區我們到底做了什麼事答應什麼事那我們執行的進度怎麼樣我們希望把這個系統盡快的規劃與整理起來然後呢讓總統院長到各個地方都能夠隨時回應那這個確保我們的績效會做得比較好一點"},{"start":2982.285,"end":3011.549,"text":"那這些看板呢也會到時候會讓各個單位來做改善那另外就是在我們接收的國家檔案局我們今年會做檔案的數位智能服務那另外呢我們正在正在規劃一個今年年底會完工明年會搬進去的一個首座國家檔案館那這個檔案館會有很多的數位展跟數位的活動跟服務那也結合地方那到時候呢"},{"start":3012.849,"end":3040.379,"text":"等比較完整的時候我們會進一步說明另外還有一個就是法規要鬆綁協助經商環境的改善這個地方我們會有內外的資訊的input從歐美的部分到我們內部的部分還有到立法院的要求我們會一起來盡量去讓整個產業活動能夠比較自由一點讓它比較活絡一點"},{"start":3041.579,"end":3068.361,"text":"那最後我們在社會化的部分我們也在規劃一個效能政府開放政府的這個目標這是總統政見人民做主開放政府那我們希望我們已經先徵詢了民間42個提案那接下來我們已經找了顧問公司研究提出了幾個項目可以做進行的第一個是資料的開放open data第二個是原住民數位不平等領域的發"},{"start":3069.242,"end":3088.098,"text":"的部分我們要去解決公共參與領域發展結合民進提案這幾個方案我們會做一個整合這兩個整合之後呢我們接下來會用兩兩個月的時間去整理出我們未來在這個領域的推動方案讓我們的開放政府走得更先進更得到人民的認同"},{"start":3090.135,"end":3105.57,"text":"另外公共建設部分我們會持續加速的支持各個地方的發展然後我們會在公建上面的審核我們會提升這個效率也讓他能夠盡量滿足大家的需求"},{"start":3106.571,"end":3128.776,"text":"所以結合下來我們從經濟的發展看起來是進入活絡的階段出口看起來也會進入比較活絡的階段臺灣應該會有一個比較好的的未來那第二個事情在未來經濟發展上面我也報告了我們打算怎麼做怎麼發展那我們希望立院跟行政院的通力合作"},{"start":3129.256,"end":3129.376,"text":"報告完畢"},{"start":3147.967,"end":3176.378,"text":"好 謝謝我們主委詳時的報告那現在我們要進行詢答委員詢答前我們依照慣例主席台做幾項的宣告每位委員發言的時間6分鐘必要的時候加1分鐘非本委員會4分鐘那我們10點半截止登記我們現在就請登記第一位的邱毅英委員召委請做詢答"},{"start":3186.026,"end":3194.291,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下我們劉主委我們請主委你站起來然後敬禮然後回到發言台"},{"start":3201.762,"end":3219.17,"text":"主委長,我想今天您花了大概24分鐘的時間做了一個非常詳盡然後也跟過去我們看到的國發會的報告是不太一樣的那我大概看了一下您花了其實相當多的篇幅在講到所謂的IC設計跟這個產業鏈供應等等的問題"},{"start":3224.272,"end":3240.638,"text":"我相信您來自業界您花了這麼多的時間在這些篇幅上面這未來是不是就是您國發會您所領導的國發會裡頭最重要或者是第一項要全力去推動的業務是不是是的好"},{"start":3244.067,"end":3268.062,"text":"來,主委請看一下Cabutex這個會在6月4日到6月7日舉辦今年舉辦大概應該會是有史以來這個CEO最多的一屆而且也是最大咖的一屆包括這個超委的董事長蘇豐茲然後包括Intel的這個紀辛格包括這個黃榮勳、輝達的黃榮勳包括這個ARM的這個Hus"},{"start":3272.645,"end":3290.016,"text":"等等這麼多的這個AI的巨頭、CEO齊聚在臺灣那剛剛您的報告裡頭其實也講得非常的清楚這個AI伺服器的產業在全球的市場裡頭臺灣扮演一個非常重要的角色"},{"start":3290.896,"end":3317.755,"text":"根據經濟部發表的資料臺灣的AI伺服器的製造是佔全球的90%左右所有的這包括美系的這些伺服器的品牌全部都是依賴臺灣的代工 對不對所以這個產業對臺灣來講它不只是經濟發展的命脈我覺得它也擔負了很重要的"},{"start":3318.957,"end":3328.568,"text":"國安發展的這樣的一個責任主委您同意我的看法嗎?完全同意好 來主委我想再請教您"},{"start":3330.439,"end":3355.594,"text":"這個是歐洲商會在大概一個多月前吧他們的專欄裡頭提出現在在立法院裡頭呢因為有國民黨跟民眾黨兩個黨推出的藐視國會罪未來如果外商公司不配合立法院的調查或是有任何觸怒立委的行為都會有這樣的一個風險存在都會有藐視國會的風險存在好"},{"start":3360.116,"end":3384.915,"text":"剛剛我們講到了這麼多的AI設計這麼多的伺服器這麼多的這個IC產業鏈這不只是台灣的經濟命脈也是台灣的國安命脈根據我們前天5月28日通過的條文裡頭第48條法人、人民團體或社會上有關係人員違反本法規定的時候與立法院調閱文件資料及檔案時"},{"start":3385.996,"end":3406.661,"text":"遭拒絕拖延或隱匿不提供者：立法院院會可以處以新台幣1萬元以上到10萬元以下罰還並按次處罰到改正為止甚至第59條還規定聽證人員不得拒絕：無正當理由缺席拒絕表達意見、拒絕證言、拒絕提供資料者"},{"start":3407.481,"end":3432.715,"text":"按次處罰這是5月28日通過的條文嘛主委您應該也看到了嘛對不對是的好我請教你如果照這個條文通過剛剛我們講的那些IC設計的產業業者如果立法院的委員要求他提供資料他能不能不提供可不可以"},{"start":3434.139,"end":3460.229,"text":"按照這個條文來看好像是不能如果我要求回答提供他的產品研發流程他的高科技製程流程能不能不提供從這個條文來看不能台積電能不能不提供目前看是不能營業機密、台積電的全球佈局聯發科的全球佈局、文貿的全球佈局日月光的全球佈局"},{"start":3461.414,"end":3475.183,"text":"能不能不提供?目前看是不能如果主委您講到依照這個法令它不能不提供的話那會造成什麼影響?你可以預估嗎?國發會你們一天到晚在預估這個我現在下一個問題是經濟的成長景氣燈號要變成這個黃紅燈了越來越熱"},{"start":3484.735,"end":3484.755,"text":"來 諸位"},{"start":3511.098,"end":3522.512,"text":"謝謝委員 這個問題的確是必須要去注意的那我自己私底下有去問一些廠商那主要關鍵我個人認為因為大家對整個訊息不夠明確"},{"start":3526.537,"end":3541.204,"text":"大家因為越模糊越緊越擔心嘛從來沒有過的第一次發生也會擔心所以多多少少因為不明確大家是有很擔心的地方這是的確有那至於會不會影響產業可能還要再多觀察那我的看法是說如果將來有實施細則或更明確的說明的時候那如果內容是讓廠商覺得可以適宜的話"},{"start":3555.111,"end":3557.112,"text":"主委 這沒有實施細則啊 如果我現在 我現在覺得你對我的回答我不滿意啊"},{"start":3574.073,"end":3599.008,"text":"對不對我現在覺得您的回答是在呼嚨啊你還要我提供你實施細則你本來就應該自己準備好了還要提供什麼實施細則我隨時告你藐視國會啊這就是這一條法令啊立法委員要人家的全球布局幹嘛立法委員要人家的機密製程的機密幹嘛甚至立法委員還可以要求國防部公布飛彈部署的機密要這些東西幹嘛幫誰要的"},{"start":3602.475,"end":3629.683,"text":"這些東西拿出去以後台灣會產生一個什麼樣的重大危機這是這一條法令最大的問題所在所以您擔任國發會的主委其實您應該要更清楚的去了解甚至透過各種不同的管道在跟這些產業座談的時候讓他們知道這樣的一個法令"},{"start":3630.991,"end":3660.1,"text":"其實是重大危害台灣的民主跟危害台灣的國家安全甚至危害台灣的投資環境您作為一個國家發展的重要的部會首長您應該要更清楚的了解我剛剛講你藐視國會那是反串喔你不要以為我真的認為你是藐視國會喔我怕你這個今天出來炸到會被我嚇到我是很清楚告訴你那個是反串喔但是你不要以為這不會發生啊"},{"start":3661.707,"end":3671.616,"text":"這未來就是真真實實會在立法院上演啦這些東西我們如果不能盡其所能的保護好的話我們就是開了一個大洞讓"},{"start":3674.233,"end":3697.709,"text":"想要透過這樣的一個產業鏈入侵台灣的人很順理成章甚至很輕而易舉的就來攻破台灣所有的IC產業鏈攻破台灣所有的優勢這個是國發會未來要密切密切注意的一個地方確保投資環境的安全確保台灣的產業鏈的永續發展確保台灣在IC設計產業上面的優勢"},{"start":3704.194,"end":3720.109,"text":"這個不只是您今天講的這個報告裡面這個完全未來會是您在所有推動的政策上面的重中之重我們一起共同勉勵好不好主委是謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝來請下來謝謝然後再進個領謝謝然後再回座"},{"start":3729.569,"end":3745.315,"text":"謝謝來接下來我們請第二位鄭正前委員請做詢答謝謝主席我想請一下劉主委我們再請劉主委請上發言台"},{"start":3749.056,"end":3775.224,"text":"委員長昨天好,看到你剛剛花了二十幾分鐘在做一個報告我在想說裡面有幾個重要的問題其中我想先問一個狀態其實它在你報告裡面沒有提到的是因為你昨天特別提到說你不排斥重啟核電這件事情你可以把這個部分再把它說清楚一下你當時提到了三個原則在怎麼樣的情況之下的時候我們可以重啟核電或者是核電演繹,請一併說明"},{"start":3781.402,"end":3805.602,"text":"我説明一下其實媒體有點誤解我的三原則主要是在看從當時我的三原則談的是產業的角度其實我談兩個一個我對我們看怎麼看核電我先講產業的角度我來自產業產業其實要一個是安全穩定的供電那它其實這個電是來自於哪一種電其實對企業而言其實坦白講不是重點"},{"start":3807.193,"end":3834.641,"text":"那只要電夠是 所以說電要夠嘛 對不對你講到三原則第一個電要夠嘛 對不對然後第二個狀態的時候你特別提到說低碳的電要夠 對不對那第三個部分你提到了2050淨林目標當中的途徑的問題是的 對不對所以你講到一個重點的部分就是電要夠所以說在電不夠的情況之下的時候呢你覺得重啟核電或者是讓核電延逸你覺得是可行的 對不對"},{"start":3836.511,"end":3858.28,"text":"我沒有說可行因為他必須有四個條件要做到第一個是法令的條件能不能過關那我的其實我開過會從現在各種法令下來他至少要5年後才有機會那當時河岸會也有提到因為這是法令的問題所有的公務員一定是依法行事"},{"start":3858.86,"end":3873.03,"text":"那第二個部分一定是新政府跟新國會之間的協議那這個協議的結果一定還要再遇到兩個問題社會共識的同意第三個是安全無虞我認為這四個是很重要的"},{"start":3874.251,"end":3892.083,"text":"不過我必須老實講你這個回答已經比前一任蔡政府時代的時候的官員有很大的一個突破我在2020年問園農會主委的時候他光是回答一個核能是低碳的這樣的店的時候他後來就很緊張叫我可不可以以後不要問他這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":3893.304,"end":3894.125,"text":"民進黨的能源政策其實有可能調整的"},{"start":3915.213,"end":3935.327,"text":"目前我們非核家園是沒有改變的沒有改變的我們追求長期一定要做到非核家園那我坦白講2025年之前會做到非核家園嗎我剛講的是長期2025年我不知道我還是要去2025年是明年了主委2025年是明年了不長期啊"},{"start":3936.861,"end":3961.915,"text":"你如果說到比如說在50年之後才要變成復活家園那是另外一個issue重點是民進黨當時之前宣布是2025年復活家園要達成這樣子一個目標所以明年就是2025年了所以你剛剛提到這個問題我特別就是要請教2025年的時候是不是就有可能對於核能研議的部分他就會往前走"},{"start":3965,"end":3991.274,"text":"就我所知道的這個這個會議知道的他很難他要研議要遵循法令那遵循法令的話目前來看的話他目前是法令上是沒辦法做研議所以他要再重啟其實應該是在你剛講四五年之後有可能重啟嘛對不對沒有當時他的講法是這樣就是台電要提出一個報告大概要1.5年然後送核安會之後他的審核在1.5年"},{"start":3992.475,"end":4020.866,"text":"然後三年之後回到臺電以後臺電要依河岸的要求去做修就是就做各種的主委這個部分都沒有問題因為其實我們一個政策的一個轉變它一定有它的時程重點是你剛剛講說長期來看的時候非核家園目標沒有變可是重點是明年就是之前民進黨宣誓的2025年非核家園的一個時間點那2025年這個部分的時候這個政策的目標是不是會改變"},{"start":4022.489,"end":4042.042,"text":"我大概比較用企業的角度外觀來看它按照現在的法令走的話2025年一定是會停下來啦那停下來之後呢未來的5年也很難有所以我比較在意的是那我們能不能給民眾足夠的電那這個電我其實問過台電兩次台電的電力是足夠的"},{"start":4043.322,"end":4064.187,"text":"昨天議員在問台電的時候他就講到說上個月下大雨板橋停電然後台電回答說那不是停電沒有供電不是停電那是異常這台電現在在凹的一個態度我這邊也特別提到我們看一下目前整個的一個發電去年的一個發電的一個情況"},{"start":4066.027,"end":4092.224,"text":"整個毛發電量的部分燃煤、燃油、燃氣三個部分占比高達83.1%您剛剛提到說幾個狀態說實話你提到了一個低碳發電這件低碳的電夠不夠這件事情的時候我覺得這是一個很好的一件因為之前的官員當中也很少提到低碳電的問題我想問一下諸位這裡面有哪些是低碳電"},{"start":4094.602,"end":4107.83,"text":"這裡面再生能源、抽蓄跟核能是低碳的就下面三個是低碳電嘛 對不對上面三個都是高碳電所以目前低碳電當中所佔的比重大概只有16%"},{"start":4109.511,"end":4132.977,"text":"但16.7%大概就這麼多所以台灣如果說低碳電要夠顯然是有很大的努力的一個空間要去做所以我覺得整個能源政策肯定其實是需要去稍微做一些調整你剛剛報告當中你也提到一個AI產業對台灣對全球有非常大的貢獻那事實上台灣目前整個AI產業當中有一個很重要部分就是算力其實是不夠的"},{"start":4133.917,"end":4161.448,"text":"台灣沒有一個真的國家級的一個算力中心目前真的有在國網中心他要去投入3億元台幣要去做提升算力的一個動作主委這樣夠不夠這個我們跟台電開過會他確定是足夠的我得到訊息很確定足夠你說怎麼樣足夠我剛才問說3億元要做一個算力中心夠不夠我現在不再問電的問題對我的瞭解算力中心3億元國網中心去做這樣夠嗎"},{"start":4163.796,"end":4192.523,"text":"這個是跟台電談過的不是 我要問的是三億元要去成立一個算力中心超算中心不是電的問題電的問題是下一個issue三億元要去做一個算力中心顯然是不夠的主委這是一個很簡單的狀態我在問算力中心夠不夠不是電夠不夠電夠不夠是接下來的問題說實話台電跟我講說現在要成立算力中心他其實是非常擔心的所以你這邊也特別提到了"},{"start":4193.143,"end":4215.353,"text":"就是AI它要用的GPU當中比原本傳統的CPU當中至少用電超過10倍所以這個部分顯然是很緊繃的台新聞直接跟我講說臺灣成立算力中心的時候電是一個大的問題所以在北部基本上是不太可能去成立算力中心他直接講新竹以北都不可能"},{"start":4216.918,"end":4225.926,"text":"除非有國家重大建設這台電給我的答案那你現在講說台電跟你講說電完全沒有問題我們要成立算力中心都沒有問題是這樣子嗎這個我可能再去多了解但是好那個對這個部分因為我本來在想說你算是"},{"start":4237.83,"end":4262.375,"text":"民進黨部長當中第一個很清楚去講到對於核能狀態用一個更開放的態度我們覺得這個狀態是肯定的那如果說前提是電要夠的時候台灣現在在發展很多的產業企業已經從數位轉型轉到AI轉型這個情況用電量會大增所以用電的部分肯定也是我們"},{"start":4263.255,"end":4279.672,"text":"關注的一個問題然後我在這邊另外再附帶兩件事都是你報告裡面有提到的就是我們的少子化問題極為嚴重2020年之後就已經出現生不如死的一個情況那這個情況越來越加劇那我們要怎麼樣去"},{"start":4280.333,"end":4289.767,"text":"改變這樣的一個情況我覺得移民政策很重要因為這個部分已經不是我們花錢就可以去解決因為在過去這幾年政府總共花了將近5000億4949億結果沒有什麼成效"},{"start":4296.036,"end":4311.116,"text":"人口還是持續的一個減少所以我們希望說對於整個人口政策的部分有更好的一個相對應的一個部分去做一個調整包括對於整個人才移民的部分包括一個工作延長就是一般"},{"start":4312.057,"end":4327.135,"text":"就是就業工作延長的一個狀態然後如何運用科技的力量取代人力然後如何去面對人口衰退的這個事情我想這些部分是重要的在砸錢要去增加人口顯然已經過去這幾年證明是沒有成效的"},{"start":4327.455,"end":4327.475,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":4360.68,"end":4361.921,"text":"我們接下來請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席楊瓊英發言,邀請主委請主委"},{"start":4380.004,"end":4406.096,"text":"首先恭喜主委因為來自產業界包括我們的經濟部長郭部長來自產業界所以人民滿心的期待尤其你更是AI的教父最近最火熱的就是這個議題所以接下來我們實質討論也就是請教因為郭部長來拜訪的時候他說他上任之後第一個重要的工作就是去盤點"},{"start":4408.357,"end":4425.687,"text":"國內所需要的電量所以我非常的期待他的盤點結果那同樣的議題本席要請教因為我們在媒體上看到您說你不排斥核能因為郭部長也說喔郭部長說核能是乾淨的能源喔"},{"start":4426.767,"end":4453.624,"text":"您說的是不排斥核能當然您也提出必須要有三大原則所以本期要請教您這個不排斥2025年明年那麼我們的王前部長之前他也說了2025年的非核家園是打不到的是跳票了他也非常坦白的直白的說所以本期要請教那你何時能夠盤點這個結果出來"},{"start":4458.49,"end":4473.942,"text":"電的部分的確是郭部長在做我們也會從他這邊一起多協調看一下我這邊是有提供他一些資訊就是AI的運算需要多少電力現在是台電看起來已經納進來評估了"},{"start":4476.103,"end":4480.347,"text":"提醒台電說AI的這個部分或許會是再三層電力的需求,夠嗎?"},{"start":4496.357,"end":4498.38,"text":"三個percent跟三成是落差十倍!"},{"start":4512.15,"end":4519.518,"text":"市主委如果照林市長所說的是3%是3%而已但是現在產業界很緊張欸產業界認為絕對會超過需求電量的3成所以等於是落差10倍對"},{"start":4528.687,"end":4544.985,"text":"委員講的是的確需要去滾動式的調整那30%是指的是運算中心的電力的提升就是它跟傳統的server之間它運算電力要大幅提升可是在一般的非AI的用電它是持平的"},{"start":4545.625,"end":4569.083,"text":"所以你身為國發會的主委我們就理性來討論明明白白產業界需要這樣的電量所以我說我非常的期待我們的郭部長在下個禮拜三他會來做報告我希望他能夠拿出他所謂的國內所需的電力到底是多少但是我們回歸我們的本質也就是產業界認為需要30%"},{"start":4571.084,"end":4599.974,"text":"呃﹗"},{"start":4600.589,"end":4601.689,"text":"如果大家達成共識﹖法令可以修啊"},{"start":4617.917,"end":4634.056,"text":"我們先不要怕困難而是要先去釐清我們的目標到底是什麼你認同這個論點吧我無法否認但是我想委員講的也是謝謝你的無法否認但是您來本席再告訴你就是說"},{"start":4637.284,"end":4652.061,"text":"您曾經說了兩年前發生什麼事我們都很清楚那這個就是一指303的大停電那同時呢您在兩年前也提醒了賴副總統所以說賴副總統他很清楚"},{"start":4652.521,"end":4652.681,"text":"請教主委"},{"start":4669.948,"end":4698.685,"text":"非核家園我們不會討論啊,因為他有安全的問題,我們還是以非核家園為我們的終極目標啦那電的部分其實我從產業的要求我也很快的跟台電做了盤點因為我們必須考慮一個事,如果法令的東西沒有解決,我們一定要讓電足夠那台電的回應是他已經考慮完了,就即使核電停掉他還是有足夠的電所以基本上是台電的當時的跟我的回覆"},{"start":4698.865,"end":4717.626,"text":"現在是三三會理事長林柏鋒先生以及合宿董事長童子賢都是你的好朋友他們呼籲請正式核能發電可行性甚至主張核電成為機載電力你認同嗎?你會把他納入你的考慮嗎?"},{"start":4719.639,"end":4739.012,"text":"我的邏輯很簡單電夠就不需要去考慮這件事電不夠當然就需要考慮再一次請教他們兩位所呼籲的就是核能發電的可能性主張核電成為機載電力會在你的討論項目之內嗎以目前現在台電給我的回覆可能短暫不會因為法令的問題是無法解決的"},{"start":4749.366,"end":4762.478,"text":"以台電告訴你 但是你是國發會 我經常說國發會是什麼呢 是政府的心臟 是政府的頭腦 所以你要好好去檢視 好嗎 是 要好好去檢視 好嗎 謝謝委員 是 好 那你願意要檢視 我們就繼續來討論"},{"start":4766.821,"end":4792.089,"text":"說AI的部分呢,您們預計規劃在北部跟南部籌設AI的生態園區昨天我也接受了論壇但是我告訴社會大眾說招商引資全台第一名的台中請教主委會不會將台中也納入規劃將AI打造成台灣第二座的護國神山山群的地位"},{"start":4794.49,"end":4805.496,"text":"這是一定會的,台中會納入吧?會會會,我們今天有初步討論過台中一定要納入,因為我們台中不管是在地理位置、在我們的教育環境裡頭、交通體系"},{"start":4807.797,"end":4829.18,"text":"人文生活都是一等一的城市而且我們的科研區如火如土在建置同時呢我們的人才在教育方面也非常的充裕豐沛這是最佳的地點所以我謝謝你同意本席所說的台中務必要成為AI的最重要的基地之一"},{"start":4830.026,"end":4849.296,"text":"同意吧?同意,同意好,我們就一起繼續加油那本席再請教喔剛剛呢您說了電夠可是台電告訴我們你們是怎麼說呢?他說電如果不夠的時候他可以隨時增加機組他可以隨時增加機組在我的家鄉我們的火力發電廠我告訴主委我們已經用廢發電我們已經貢獻良多我們的生命誠可貴"},{"start":4859.929,"end":4860.109,"text":"你可以認同吧?"},{"start":4876.174,"end":4892.446,"text":"是的我順便跟委員報告我們會在臺中做一個實驗做一個零碳電的實驗就是用藍綠青在臺中他是零碳的第一個實驗點就會在這個也就是你在討論的綠能但是你沒回答剛剛本席不能加火力發電廠的基礎因為我們議會我們也有一個減碳的法令在那裡"},{"start":4898.738,"end":4899.598,"text":"是的,我會照顧他"},{"start":4917.913,"end":4922.239,"text":"是的所以我們非常的希望在你接軌國際這個淨零碳排的這個目標應該要將自然碳會包括了藍碳、綠碳以及黃碳做整合來作為滾動式的一個檢討是不是是"},{"start":4936.155,"end":4955.024,"text":"所以我們希望AI教護的你能夠好好的去完善了這一些事情最後一個議題我把功課給你也就是少子化的問題我們預估2022年開始內政部列管的一男人數今年首度跌破了10萬而且他們預估2031年會下滑"},{"start":4962.709,"end":4976.046,"text":"所以主委在人口的一個結構變遷衝擊未來的經濟、勞動、財政、教育、醫療等等所以主委本席要給你一個功課也就是你要"},{"start":4977.683,"end":4990.832,"text":"創新有效的方法來因應人口問題所帶來的挑戰所以我希望給你這個功課你詳細去盤點將方案給本席好嗎?好的 謝謝謝謝楊卓英委員接下來我們請李玉琳委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":5009.326,"end":5010.67,"text":"謝謝主席 請留主委我們再請主委"},{"start":5024.648,"end":5035.671,"text":"委員長謝謝大家都知道你來自於產業而且你的擅長在於管理跟數位的轉型尤其是非常熟悉整個產業的趨勢那現在到了我們的國發會我相信國發會也整個對於我們"},{"start":5042.273,"end":5042.613,"text":"好,謝謝委員"},{"start":5066.872,"end":5093.057,"text":"因為主委那個經濟部長郭志輝他特別有提到這個核能是乾淨的能源那這就代表著我們的核能是否要處理的問題是非常的重要那尤其是也提到了這個AI產業還有我們的半導體它是極高的需要的用電所以這個電的夠不夠是非常的重要那剛剛提到主委你一直在講說台電告訴你電夠"},{"start":5095.197,"end":5107.943,"text":"他告訴你電夠,那我們桃園啊一直在停電跳電那這樣子主委你還認為電夠不夠你自己要有個判斷電夠不夠因為你知道產業很多產業都急需要用電的啊"},{"start":5110.379,"end":5127.258,"text":"是不是?電夠不夠?有沒有缺電?是的,我的確我跟產業我們其實常常密切的在接觸那現在因為整個用電的狀況是比兩年前改善非常多這是事實那為什麼桃園停電這麼多次呢?"},{"start":5127.558,"end":5128.878,"text":"主委,您認為有沒有缺點?"},{"start":5151.069,"end":5175.515,"text":"我目前從民間的反應跟臺電的強烈的兩次的...你不要只聽臺電說,你的判斷呢?我目前...你來自產業,你應該很清楚至少產業目前是沒有跟我反應過這件事情產業沒有?沒有,目前沒有所以主委,我們希望你在產業跟民生用電的角度來講我們的能源政策真的是有調整的空間那接下來"},{"start":5176.035,"end":5176.415,"text":"三月21日的國際能源會議"},{"start":5206.535,"end":5227.784,"text":"非核家園是這個目標是永不放棄的目標那這就代表著河山廠的一號二號機仍然在這個今年跟明年就是要除役了在這種情形之下2050年我們的淨零排放這個路徑這個策略是很難達到的因為再生能源就要達到60%以上了你認為做得到嗎"},{"start":5232.073,"end":5257.791,"text":"我如果是從長期的淨零碳排我認為做得到最主要的原因是氫能源的發展會在會越來越快速那現在過渡期我們有藍綠氫可以做過渡那這個藍綠氫的應用不只是我們在電廠應用現在有些企業在做他自己的備用電源也開始啟用了藍綠氫原因是他是一個綠電對他企業在外銷的時候是很有幫助的那他本來就要做備用系統那進行就會解決這個問題"},{"start":5261.374,"end":5261.554,"text":"2016ing"},{"start":5279.406,"end":5279.526,"text":"您認為可能嗎?"},{"start":5309.281,"end":5317.976,"text":"2035年大量運轉是濾清是完全透過水去電解所以你現在是混合清到了2035年的話是濾清濾清的2050年就達到整個是我們純淨的清"},{"start":5323.018,"end":5344.667,"text":"對,他是感激他就能夠解決完全沒有碳的排放而且他對台灣的保障更好因為他原料是水所以他來自水所以是你有信心嗎?我有信心好,我們期待你有的信心因為剩下26年的時間2035年就來這個濾清就開始大量的運轉的話他佔比再生能源就要達到"},{"start":5345.487,"end":5346.608,"text":"在這次我們賴政府他的宣言裡面"},{"start":5361.354,"end":5388.477,"text":"他有講說五大信賴產業五大的信賴產業跟蔡英文之前的六大這個戰略的這個產業這當中的差別性我們看到了我們的賴政府沒有談到這個整個再生能源跟綠能的產業為什麼沒有談到?難道他對這個再生能源綠能已經沒有信心了嗎?還是不是核心的重要的這個產業還是說已經碰到瓶頸了?"},{"start":5389.386,"end":5415.897,"text":"它是已經突破瓶頸了我舉個例子一開始我們做那個水下裝是9個月做一支因為我們的3D的焊接的精度不足、鋼構不足現在都克服了現在一個月可以做到9支所以它已經變成從過去比較艱困的部分已經克服到那個所以它已經是一個比較可以正式要商轉的環境了所以它不是一個等於是它不需要再它的輔導期是已經快結束了"},{"start":5416.584,"end":5434.788,"text":"主委本期在這邊還提醒您因為這個氫氣的發電這個整個技術還沒有夠成熟那我們有需要很多的時間去克服那何時可以正式的這個商轉也不是說你說的時間它就一定能夠商轉都是未定數所以在2050年要達到這個近年的排放這個目標這個願景還是我們要多多考慮是不是能夠將核能的重新納入考量"},{"start":5443.071,"end":5450.45,"text":"這是非常的重要我們也希望你能夠整合各方的意見你可以給我們的現在的賴政府賴總統什麼建議呢"},{"start":5453.225,"end":5477.255,"text":"我其實我給他建議也是在濾清因為我們其實我看了很多的paper過去我們在研究這方面琢磨很深因為以前我有一個永續公司大概有80幾個員工那全球的報告研究下來連那個空中巴士都宣稱他在2035年要做第一台的濾清的飛機那歐洲現在從垃圾車到交通工具都在做實驗包括渡輪"},{"start":5478.255,"end":5503.574,"text":"包括德國福斯特的工業區其實我們去看關西電力的備用電力也都是濾清那台灣現在很多科技也開始在推動輕能源的備用系統就不再是傳統發電機所以這個動作其實是已經進行式了所以它的成熟期會越來越貴都是在進行式當中所以你知道嗎2030年這個貿易出口就是要零碳排放的"},{"start":5504.455,"end":5504.795,"text":"接下來我們請任務委員請做詢答"},{"start":5536.527,"end":5540.775,"text":"好謝謝主席請留主委我們再請留主委"},{"start":5546.826,"end":5568.456,"text":"主委好 主委委員長首先先請教一下 因為立法院的職員刑事法跟刑法修正通過了那我先問一下 這個還是要請主委誠實來回答會不會擔心一些相關的包括一些企業或外商會不會擔心一些機密的一些外洩的問題 如果被立法院調來問的話 會不會"},{"start":5571.668,"end":5598.393,"text":"這個部分是我也有責任要去溝通那之前是有一些人是有電話跟我聯絡因為主要是媒體的訊息不夠完整所以大家對於這個訊息不夠完整的過程中產生了非常多的擔心跟這個影響那的確從條文來看的話它的確會有模糊的空間那我們可能要去多溝通之外當然如果院這邊有一個比較實時細則的話"},{"start":5599.993,"end":5619.54,"text":"他裡面很多都是很模糊的啦,包括可以被調來,包括所有東西,包括那個,那一旦被調來的話,其實他要求你提供資料,其實你也很難去界定到底什麼是能提供,什麼是不能提供,但是你不能提供的時候,其實就面對到相當的壓力。我問的是,因為你來自產業界,也有個待在外商公司待過,他們會不會擔心?他們會不會擔心?"},{"start":5622.362,"end":5643.416,"text":"實話實說即可我只問了少數的啦 那有人是主動打電話給我 他是比較擔心啦 但是我個人的問題我問你一下 如果他們 那另外是他們來的話 會擔心嘛 包括一些機密外線甚至擔心被罰款嘛 對不對 如果沒有照實的來講的話對 因為他們有內部營業秘密的問題啦 他講了就會被開除嘛"},{"start":5643.996,"end":5644.436,"text":"你怎麼溝通?你怎麼溝通?"},{"start":5670.663,"end":5694.677,"text":"我這邊可能會是告訴他就是我們如果遇到的困難的時候我們會盡量來幫忙協調然後第二個釐清當法律定的這樣這麼模糊而沒有一個明確的概念的時候任何都可能企業被調來或者是都有可能被調來的時候不好意思這個我們同仁有另外一個條文涉及營業秘密的部分他是可以那怎麼去做一個界定"},{"start":5695.097,"end":5695.938,"text":"對,我有跟我太太講要有心理準備"},{"start":5724.281,"end":5738.997,"text":"所以我說那不只你而也包括你的處長甚至你的科長科員都可能被叫上來他們問的立委問的問題如果認為你是虛偽陳述你認為你是誠實作答你如果認為你是虛偽陳述的話你有可能就被視為是藐視國會"},{"start":5741.159,"end":5759.017,"text":"這樣不會產生讓很多優秀的公務同仁在來到立法院示立法院為衛徒嗎?讓很多優秀人員是不是會擔心呢?我說這樣的法台灣是有一個完整的質詢制度的我相信99.9%的人沒有人敢輕易的對立委講的話有太多的這個挑戰跟質疑的"},{"start":5760.239,"end":5782.862,"text":"連立委都還可以叫官員直接叫他說叫你上來然後我的就是直接叫你你下去這樣子立委可以用這樣的方式對待官員的都不會被判所謂的藐視國會罪那官員我認為我看過99.9%的都不會你為了要去修理少數一兩位政務官然後把所有的公務員都抓進來我認為這個是會傷害到整個國家的體制的主委認同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":5785.314,"end":5811.224,"text":"我有義務去化解我們同仁的疑慮啦那我們會法制制我們會把整個條文再看得仔細一點因為之前比較來自媒體現在通過了我們會內部會有一個要不斷的去保護同仁讓同仁有信心的能夠在自己的公職上來幫助台灣繼續往前走同時間也要去跟外界去做溝通啦有些確實會愉悅到的部分將來因為行政委員會再提"},{"start":5812.145,"end":5831.128,"text":"復議回來包括事件也都在提我們希望這樣的法會重新再去這個調整甚至於重新那個我們希望建立一個是長久的穩定的一個制度而不是一個我還是要強調台灣的立法院是有執行權的執行權其實就對於官員造成相當大的壓力我不認為立委對官員沒有辦法"},{"start":5831.488,"end":5847.67,"text":"我舉個例就好啦當年韓國瑜在選市長的時候不斷講說我選上市長我一定會查到很多的弊案幾大弊案幾大弊案上任擔任一年市長的任內查完全部查完之後沒有弊案沒有任何的弊案連送檢調都沒有連送什麼都沒有"},{"start":5848.75,"end":5860.955,"text":"這就是用口頭想像的那個你還是對司法的部分還是至少他的基本的一個權益的部分我們至少對司法還是要基本的一個尊重如果連這個東西能夠去逾越的時候我認為整個體制會整個混亂掉"},{"start":5862.878,"end":5891.406,"text":"好,我回來因為時間非常有限啦,再要請教一下啦,非核家園其實是臺灣追求的一個長遠的一個目標啦,也是院長再次的提醒那其實在未來我們講的R1-100的部分,其實也把核能它其實不視為再生能源啦那所以核能還有很多的包括這個核廢料的處理每個縣市裡面有人要核廢料,包括臺北市自己都不要核廢料新北市也不要核廢料,那包括核安的部分其實有很多的包括執照,包括安全的問題都要解決"},{"start":5892.526,"end":5908.937,"text":"主委怎麼看?其實核電還有很多程序要去做處理,主委怎麼看?核電那個媒體那個是有一點不是我的原意喔那我現在我的看法是很簡單的喔,其實我從企業的角度看那企業要的是一個安全穩定足夠的電源"},{"start":5909.958,"end":5931.42,"text":"目前臺電告訴我的是合電必須依法準時關掉,所以我們沒有理由去思考這件事,那得去思考電夠不夠,目前臺電的回復是電足夠的。我們也請他考慮到AI的變化,他也會放進來,他們現在也修正上調需求。"},{"start":5940.127,"end":5954.1,"text":"台灣最近齁 因為我也講過很多次燃煤大家不要嘛齁 核電當然有些疑慮上面啦 燃煤大家不要因為會空污影響嘛 那燃氣也持續在增加 高雄最近包括興達 這個包括大陵都還持續在增加電廠 全台灣"},{"start":5955.401,"end":5956.322,"text":"我們現在也在做碳捕捉也在做藍綠軍的推動"},{"start":5983.204,"end":6007.598,"text":"所以這些都是未來要發展的一些方向那因為核電還有很多的程序上的處理包括我剛剛講到核飛、核安甚至法令相關的部分都要做處理所以我覺得這一塊包括人民對這一塊也還有很多的疑慮我是覺得這一塊要妥善的思考跟妥善的溝通之後我認為這個才是一個那目前的部分電力確實即使有一些跳電等等的一些問題但是看來都是比較"},{"start":6008.359,"end":6008.68,"text":"是是"},{"start":6020.612,"end":6040.667,"text":"另外我要講的,剛剛講到的南北的部分其實有一個AI產業的生態系包括高雄現在整個在推動5G IoT包括智慧科技創新園區AI的聚落其實也不斷的在往這邊來推動其實也產生很好的一些效果"},{"start":6042.128,"end":6060.69,"text":"包括很重要的電力的部分,高雄持續在增加電力,即使我們有5成的電力是往中往北送,我們還在蓋新的電廠就是在支撐這些半導體產業鏈,支撐這些AI的產業鏈,我們希望主委持續支持高雄,不要讓高雄只有重工業,不要讓高雄只有"},{"start":6061.27,"end":6062.091,"text":"是的 是的"},{"start":6082.148,"end":6099.656,"text":"主委支持嗎?支持啦,速發部明天今天下午會來找我AI的部分在高雄已經開始產生聚落了包括亞灣新創園包括高覽二期等等全部在推動了所以整個包括現在的整個都在亞灣快速的來推動我也希望"},{"start":6100.416,"end":6118.859,"text":"主委,全力來支持AI的整個產業鏈,半導體產業鏈、AI相關的產業鏈,全力的在高雄來深耕發展。讓南北,中委不反對的,至少在這樣的狀況下的時候能夠有很好,因為南部其實已經有很好的一些,不管是生活機能、大眾運輸或者人才的部分其實都具備了。"},{"start":6119.36,"end":6139.189,"text":"﹚"},{"start":6139.549,"end":6139.569,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6156.067,"end":6156.367,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6176.778,"end":6195.569,"text":"最歡喜你來做主委就是因為你是產業界是真的專業很多的政治話術點到為止就好了我們還是民眾希望以民為本是真正的專業你的特長 謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做巡討"},{"start":6207.464,"end":6234.186,"text":"主席、國會委員、有請主任委員我們再請主委主委好還不是很熟悉的資訊或是條文就是說我回去再好好看我們立法院執權行使法三讀通過"},{"start":6235.711,"end":6237.793,"text":"第15條 立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予之職權"},{"start":6258.341,"end":6270.292,"text":"然後經過行議法院院會的結議設調查委員會或是委員會的結議設專案小組然後調查委員或調查專案小組"},{"start":6272.335,"end":6297.137,"text":"得要求有關機關或特定案件事項提供參考的資料要求有關人員出席他有一定的程序有一定的條件而是要立法院有關的職遣憲法而且是這樣憲法賦予的職遣不是隨便可以一定是跟有關商郭傑的可能性"},{"start":6298.078,"end":6325.836,"text":"的彩會：台積電沒有：剛才有委員提的那些案例不會有：就沒有：所以立法院行使調查前：不得一夜調查的目的事項與範圍還要尊重相關的這些規定：所以他都有一些非常明確的：而且：主委這些條文不是國民黨民眾黨所創的："},{"start":6328.547,"end":6355.773,"text":"早期的我們的顧立雄國防部部長也提過現在的外交部部長林佳龍他也提過所以這個部分我知道主委已經一定沒有時間看這個啦所以不要輕易的回應啦我們回去再好好看向西委陳述向西委陳述"},{"start":6357.052,"end":6369.604,"text":"我先談這個了。調查委員或調查專案小組為行使調查權得要求朝政府機關部隊法人 這個條文是尤梅尼委員、林佳龍委員過去的條文"},{"start":6370.749,"end":6389.603,"text":"所以這個部分他都有一個非常嚴謹的不會隨便侵犯到人民的權利如果侵犯到人民的權利他也可以提出相關的另外一個相關的途徑所以這個都有另外就是"},{"start":6390.848,"end":6408.617,"text":"特別提到剛才賴委員提到稀微陳述稀微陳述在我們的中華民國刑法裡面就有什麼叫稀微陳述公務員本來就不能稀微陳述我相信我們的公務員都不會我是30年的公務員"},{"start":6410.757,"end":6433.604,"text":"來到立法院也很多為第4屆了我們的公務員99%甚至100%都不會稀微陳述只有極少數的政務官也很少啦所以會不會碰到這種事情也真的很少然後促進轉型正義條例也有啊對機關團體啊"},{"start":6437.826,"end":6453.152,"text":"對像那個救國團啊﹖對不對﹖一樣可以啊﹖所以都有啊﹖也不能稀微陳述啊﹖這是對人民都有啊﹖促進轉型這條例有啊﹖我們當初也沒有說怎麼樣啊﹖所以這個部分"},{"start":6454.721,"end":6456.642,"text":"我們就是要去避免尤其是我們的總統"},{"start":6482.26,"end":6504.931,"text":"你沒有機會,我們是很少有機會幾乎沒有機會碰到總統了你這個國會主委有機會碰到總統就要告訴他要避免台灣,要避免戰爭,要和平所以一個就職典禮的演說也是很重要的所以不只是美中,我們不要陷入這個美中競爭的地緣政治"},{"start":6506.262,"end":6519.835,"text":"這個是最重要是我們自己很重要的然後國會的報告裏面若使總統人民做主開放政府的政見所以這個部分這裏面你提到原住民主數不平等確實"},{"start":6521.482,"end":6540.05,"text":"原住民組數位不平等需要去協調NCC協調國那個速發部未來原住民有關相關的這些中長城計畫的時候也是請給支持這裡面提到因為時間的關係我就把一些重點跟原住民比較有關係的"},{"start":6541.531,"end":6565.703,"text":"完成所作國家檔案館的建設因為我過去從臺灣省政府服務過在臺灣省政府服務過很多的機關法規會、社會處、省府的秘書處到原住民行政的部門我也常常我到中央人民會服務也將近10年"},{"start":6566.974,"end":6591.813,"text":"那現在因為過去的檔案啊 原住民專責的行政單位後來才成立很多在民政廳 那很多在這其他的廳處 所以省政府的這些檔案我曾經去你們的檔案 你們現在檔案擠嘛我去了這個新莊檔案擠去調資料 有的調得到 有的調不到"},{"start":6592.928,"end":6609.735,"text":"所以這個部分這是一個非常珍貴的一個檔案資料所以我要請這個這個主委尤其是局長把原住民主的相關的這些重要的檔案能夠把它好好地整理那個有個專檔有一個專檔"},{"start":6612.406,"end":6640.623,"text":"而不是這樣找的會比較方便所以這個部分也請這個既然要成立就把它好好的不是只有一個大樓啦更重要的是裡面的資料還有哪裡呢?省議會過去政治的中心尤其是原住民的部分是在很多都在省議會的資料裡面過去省支議會還在的時候現在沒有省支議會了法律上還有啦"},{"start":6641.887,"end":6663.343,"text":"省執議會當初有曾經整理過﹖所以可能還沒有完成﹖所以繼續的來處理﹖可以嗎﹖可以。這個這裡面我剛講過了另外就是說這個綜合發展就是花東基金的花東基金這個綜合發展實施方案"},{"start":6664.926,"end":6691.251,"text":"花東第7發展條例是民國100年立法院三度通過民國101年開始有花東基金101年到現在已經十幾年了然後還是現在都還是一樣4年一起4年一起還是40億所以這個如果按照物價指數各方面應該調整應該調高"},{"start":6694.758,"end":6702.422,"text":"而且是可以按照現在的規定就可以滾動檢討但是這個額度應該要做調高所以這個部分也請這個滾動檢討相關的這些確實是有需要因為這個10年前就是40億"},{"start":6718.227,"end":6718.768,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢談"},{"start":6747.808,"end":6773.755,"text":"主席我想請主委我們再請主委劉主委您從業界出生與傳統的政治人物不同請問您在擔任國發會主委後您說您會重新讓大國發回來本期想了解您所期許的大國發會是要具備哪些功能或說什麼樣才叫做大國花費呢"},{"start":6775.423,"end":6797.613,"text":"我希望我們的團隊是具備主導性能夠為國家規劃一個比較好的未來所以我們在以經濟來講我們過去是發布經濟的報告但是我現在是帶著團隊我們進行數據的分析去找到裡面可以改善的空間所以然後我們來讓他的整個經濟成長能夠在控制範圍內"},{"start":6798.433,"end":6821.592,"text":"其實我們過去就是國發會是等於是一個小內閣那最簡單的看法每一次的這個委員會法定的出席名單應該是各部會的部長但國發會成立之後幾乎都是由次長甚至是署長來代替開會不曉得主委會不會希望以後來開會盡量還是由各部的部長親自來呢?"},{"start":6823.158,"end":6830.324,"text":"是的 這個院長已經有指示了會議要求各部的部長親自參加是 你看上一次的會議記錄"},{"start":6831.755,"end":6832.416,"text":"是的,因為院長已經支持了"},{"start":6860.301,"end":6860.641,"text":"國會無法．針對有"},{"start":6875.294,"end":6902.17,"text":"心虛有可能會說謊的官員像您這樣子認真的官員是不會受到影響的你知道嗎這國會無法是在讓行政院更透明化而且呢甚至行政院做得好我們也是給他拍拍手鼓勵啊這是一個預防性的措施而不是要拿來破壞政府官員或者是跟任何民間企業跟人民都無關您了解嗎"},{"start":6903.833,"end":6926.384,"text":"謝謝委員開導您個人認為擔任國發會主委後您優先推動的政策或者是最大的政策目標是什麼?我們最大的目標就是第一個是產業我們希望讓經濟更好第二個是均衡我們希望讓台灣能夠各地發展是均衡的包括產業"},{"start":6928.018,"end":6929.159,"text":"每年增加多少電力需求?主委瞭解嗎?"},{"start":6947.45,"end":6965.746,"text":"電力需求依據台電的評估他把他整個整體需求目前把AI算進來是每一年整個台灣會有3%的增加是那如果每年成長3%10年就是30%而我們的核一、核二都已經除異了主委知道下一座要除異的機組是什麼時候要除異嗎?"},{"start":6969.214,"end":6993.974,"text":"應該是2025年沒有是這個今年今年的7月今年的7月27號我們和珊的第一座居住就要除役了那所以不到兩個月以後就要停止商轉再過一年明年的5月17號和珊的二號機也要停止商轉到那個時候我們所有核能機組就已經完全停止運轉"},{"start":6994.935,"end":7013.307,"text":"那所以呢合三除一之後大約會有6%至7%的電力缺口請問主委對我們現在臺灣的電力供給有信心嗎目前來講是有信心因為兩個因素第一個他備載有16%第二個因素是我我針對這一點有跟臺電再三確認那他有他的計劃在增加機組"},{"start":7020.149,"end":7037.083,"text":"我建議主委,針對台灣電力的實際狀況你一定要用心去了解否則您說的口號就會真的變成口號而且會變成空談你說台積電甚至AI這一些說每年還要增加3%的用電量"},{"start":7038.144,"end":7038.324,"text":"我去查明"},{"start":7067.512,"end":7073.864,"text":"四千零一億你知道四千零一億可以再多蓋一座核電廠嗎?知道嗎?呃...應該是...呃...我不曉得核電廠的..."},{"start":7080.043,"end":7082.505,"text":"我是沒有反對不是支持這一定要講清楚就是我們對企業來講我們要的是有安全穩定的供電"},{"start":7103.843,"end":7104.304,"text":"我覺得你被騙了"},{"start":7124.776,"end":7140.623,"text":"你也要求他們不准騙你你不准騙我們,他也不准騙你知道嗎?回去要好好的查明這件事情到底他們有什麼依據覺得說他們覺得有信心、電力充足我覺得這一點你一定要追根究柢那另外呢我是"},{"start":7141.283,"end":7159.772,"text":"本席其實是支持您抱持著不排斥的看法我覺得這是相當理性務實的看法那我們的院長行政院卓院長他就說永不放棄追求非核家園雖然您先前稱讚我們的行政院長是非常有理想的但這個想法顯然跟你的想法跟你的規劃有所衝突"},{"start":7164.474,"end":7188.951,"text":"主委你是不是應該拿起要喚醒大國發會這樣子的氣魄去勸一下行政院長用更務實、更理性的態度來看待核能呢?我的看法是氫能源可以發展起來非核家園是做得到的那我們也不需要在這種事情上面去打轉因為人民要的是一個乾淨的電那氫能源可以提供乾淨的電加上風力等等"},{"start":7189.511,"end":7192.553,"text":"所以我們應該去努力你如果再說到那個新能源的部分你知道那還要多少年才跟得上嗎我覺得你這樣子是不是有一點點太過夢幻的心情啊主席我想要發表就是說"},{"start":7207.982,"end":7216.446,"text":"這個核能要回歸理性專業對國家最有利的方式而不是因為有人絕食或是寫在黨章裡面就成為不可碰觸或者不可討論的禁忌主委你要拿起你在產業的這些實戰經驗好好地來對行政院要求說我們一定要為了產業發展"},{"start":7230.632,"end":7246.163,"text":"要有充足的電力不要再把核能當作是不可碰觸的禁忌了那接下來本席問就是說國防會的主委需要堅定很多法定的職務請問你自己了解有哪幾個重要的法定職務嗎?"},{"start":7248.666,"end":7264.107,"text":"重要的法令職務我目前參與到的是花東離島條例其他的我可能還要再一點時間去瞭解您同時也是政委因為組織法明定政委兼主委然後也是國發基金的召集人"},{"start":7264.608,"end":7282.225,"text":"那國發基金的代表人就是您作為國發基金就是代表人臺積電最大的股東擁有一席的董事席次那過去慣例這個位置都是由主委擔任那臺積電今年4月才公佈新任的這個名單是董明星主委"},{"start":7282.625,"end":7288.427,"text":"那6月4日的董事選舉能會由董明星秘書長來擔任國發會的基金代表擔任台積電的董事還是會換陳寧?我們會更換到我會更換到你嗎?所以這是確定的那我在這裡也向這個台積電的董事來建議就是說我們雲林縣湖北中科園區已經通過了台塘土地的陳珠而且呢"},{"start":7311.496,"end":7330.663,"text":"也用水用電的同意函都已經具備甚至從湖尾土庫寶中東勢串起來高達1600公頃的這個台湯土地用水用電用地都市市都具備希望主委可以建議台積電能夠則子能夠順利的來選定湖尾作為他擴廠的基地是的我會找機會表達謝謝主委"},{"start":7341.408,"end":7359.76,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答陳昌明委員詢答結束 我們休息三分鐘 謝謝首先要請劉竹偉我們再請劉竹偉陳委員長"},{"start":7371.158,"end":7400.429,"text":"好,劉哲瑋好劉哲瑋你從企業界來到政府的機關而且來到重要的內閣單位那我剛剛聽了大國發會的時代要回來了因為我們的賴總統有特別指示以後參加國發會部長都要參加你手指示了各部門的討論這個非常重要你一定要堅持下來"},{"start":7404.254,"end":7421.766,"text":"是的,謝謝委員不是謝謝我,要堅持,要做事情那你是從資層管理顧問公司過來的那我看了天下雜誌的一篇報導他說你常常看到別人看不到的問題大家稱讚你"},{"start":7422.899,"end":7449.27,"text":"支持會計事務所跟支持管理顧問公司可以說是在國際上是有名的一種聯手的會計事務當然看的層面非常多那今天我要請教你一個問題你說答應日格的一個主要原因是我對下一代感到憂心忡忡你為什麼會對下一代感到憂心忡忡"},{"start":7451.039,"end":7475.932,"text":"從民進黨執政八年那總統都把年輕人帶來非常有希望結果臺灣的青年非常優秀那你怎麼感到臺灣的下一代憂心忡忡你告訴我一點企業界要講實話不要像政治人物這樣講來講去那邊一套這邊一套來你跟我講為什麼你對下一代憂心忡忡"},{"start":7477.366,"end":7479.548,"text":"你也碰到很多我們下一代的問題"},{"start":7506.349,"end":7535.45,"text":"今天你站這個位置不敢講出來我為什麼特別提醒你這一句話下一代你憂心忡忡國安會執委講師這一代表示我對我們臺灣的整體環境非常擔憂這第一點我要提醒你政治現在已經示威不分了企業是以利潤為基礎經營管理支持政治是以選票為基礎你先要認清楚這一點第二點"},{"start":7536.837,"end":7565.167,"text":"你自己講說在業界打滾已經有具備我們產業的實務跟前瞻其視的條件那標題幫你寫成這樣你要把自己變成聯誼推動公部門的平靜池水你又講到你太太是高層公務文官出身了說我們文官裡面的人才非常多水準非常高"},{"start":7566.366,"end":7582.82,"text":"你怎麼說你進來要變成一個連儀把公務機關攪動它平靜的池水因為你手中我有重要事業要好好改善我認同你的觀點但是你站在這我愛跟你講一些事情你這句禪事給我聽"},{"start":7590.003,"end":7615.012,"text":"我是沒有看那篇報導啦我不知道他為什麼這樣寫喔但是從我過去每換一個職務的話我都希望這個職務跟過去不一樣那我們都希望去更進化嘛你這麼重要的人物他喜歡搞一定要給你公務阿媒體不會給你公務阿天下雜誌也不是媒體天下雜誌也不是隨隨便便的雜誌我現在跟職位講好好提拔你國發會的人才"},{"start":7617.114,"end":7631.369,"text":"這幾年他被壓制了很慘他們多做做錯多錯少做少錯他們已經不願意發言你上級指示我才來做你要了解他們心態大家都很優秀"},{"start":7632.31,"end":7655.972,"text":"但是大家都想為臺灣為這個國家建立一份的心理但是政治把他們搞得無所適同我相信在下的官員你們心有戚戚焉啊我都瞭解都談過我只要說你為企業幹的執行官就是歐元首所有大概瞭解你的觀念這裡面好好提拔優秀的人才"},{"start":7657.589,"end":7660.271,"text":"你再來談到賴總統所以我兩次跟你見面"},{"start":7680.706,"end":7691.904,"text":"在內閣會議要你開處方說我們不但要有頂線我們要全面你為我們國家經濟的發展你處方要如何開"},{"start":7697.386,"end":7711.597,"text":"這個處方我們現在就是在我剛剛的報告有特別提到了第一個我們要拉成長的核心主軸那我們現在拉兩個核心主軸是半導體跟AI那第二個部分我們從我們在台灣戰事戰略超過12%的15的企業裡面產業撈出來我們現在挑了6個產業"},{"start":7717.841,"end":7735.981,"text":"．"},{"start":7736.101,"end":7746.872,"text":"就是比較規模大的企業以後去讓臺灣得到更大的保障之外可以提供員工更好的薪水我有看到裡面在談你說臺灣的晶圓製造、封裝測試包括冷的這邊已經佔了整個世界60幾%"},{"start":7753.869,"end":7769.893,"text":"機械製造業占的是台灣的電子產業裏面你說要發展AI的一個設計能力現在24%占全世界可以寬鬆48%這個比較快但是你要知道除了這你講的AI"},{"start":7775.655,"end":7797.906,"text":"跟臺灣經營的製造業要持續維持一個領先的地位你知道現在其他的產業不怎麼好過因為你所接觸我不曉得你傳統產業、機械產業、一些的產業你有沒有深入了解現在大家都一汪汪追著趕會不會產生核燃病我請你特別注意這樣"},{"start":7799.481,"end":7808.271,"text":"是的 這個的確我這邊有在注意產業的均衡裡面我們有做過數據分析的確有不均衡的問題我們需要去改善看到你頭腦的思維是怎樣結果這點不錯"},{"start":7816.977,"end":7845.087,"text":"要站就要站世界的首要地位站了最起碼要30%你是在那邊這麼寫的啊?是的我講的你聽得清楚嗎?我聽得清楚我怕我國語不標準我聽得懂啦好最後一個問題那個主席你所有朋友跟你講說你當這個官叫做流水的官公務人員這些你手下叫做鐵塔的兵"},{"start":7846.192,"end":7867.831,"text":"我欣賞那一點大家都在捧台積電說他最棒最好其實我跟你講賺的錢都是外國人拿去我們只佔了24%但是你又講了一句話我欣賞你說啊台積電吸走我們台灣大量的人才和資源"},{"start":7870.335,"end":7896.334,"text":"業界怨書宰盜真的是怨書宰盜他薪水一高第一個抓蓮花客人到台積電蓮花客要抓其他產業的人到蓮花我都碰到但上一次我一直在講這問題大家馬爾東風只有有錢賺這個一直往前衝我不反對甚至我們也把人才設立的一個"},{"start":7898.626,"end":7900.149,"text":"是台灣維持命脈的一個方式還有一點我最不滿"},{"start":7913.151,"end":7938.597,"text":"我在立法院常常講我們高通的7億美金的罰款我們竟然用他來投資的名義把他弄掉結果他薪水特別高高通又把台積隊的人才拉到他那邊去7億裡面的設備我們台灣人都用不到7億美金咧咱台灣的政府不給我們這個"},{"start":7940.219,"end":7954.254,"text":"不給家農領以外人我就不知道說到什麼時候還怕美國你這個好好瞭解一下你產業界出身的你跟高通那7億錢台灣到底得到什麼能有貢獻出來"},{"start":7956.016,"end":7978.574,"text":"把滑板變成他的投資然若他去補貼薪水非常高頂多若怕咱台灣的產業我不知道政策在哪裡我希望你7月就來了講實話官場還有很多那個不要怕做對的事情為台灣的事情做出正確的一條路要7月這麼想"},{"start":7979.975,"end":8008.415,"text":"我是把你整個我需要了解你的邏輯啊好好的發揮一下好不好我講的這樣聽得到嗎?聽得到謝謝到底是有還是沒有呢?有啦有啦有啦雖然那個無法通過但是我們都不會這樣那時候有一些太誇張的事情在裡面我們才這樣做但是你來好好做我們會支持國發會很重要規劃國家未來的發展及前景我希望你好好努力是謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":8010.29,"end":8010.47,"text":"主席"},{"start":8049.749,"end":8052.532,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8229.91,"end":8250.663,"text":"為官員做好了沒有?好,現在我們繼續開會。我們請區住委委員執行。"},{"start":8264.001,"end":8266.892,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請國話會留主委"},{"start":8276.517,"end":8299.525,"text":"主委您好,因為您是國會主委也是行政院的政務委員是的你作為政務委員你督導包括經濟部包括相關的財經部門是的包括財政部、金管會大家都你督導那經濟部門底下也有台電所以對你相關的發言雖然你個人說這個你不排斥核電"},{"start":8301.649,"end":8312.876,"text":"你關心的次序應該是電夠不夠、低碳發電夠不夠、最後就是淨零所以這部分你不排斥核電是你個人意見"},{"start":8314.446,"end":8333.327,"text":"還是未來政策規劃的方向?我當時只是在表達這個就是我們願意接受公開的討論但是就我的了解就是現在就個人我當時跟總統談的2050的路徑裡面是沒有核能的"},{"start":8334.128,"end":8358.261,"text":"就是我在負責檢探這個部分是非核家園還是會要終極目標要實現他不僅是非常專業高度專業也是非常政治性這個議題所以您的發言當然我相信你的專業從產業界有你的看法但是你這個動見觀瞻你的一言一行因為你督導經濟部"},{"start":8359.622,"end":8360.503,"text":"是,這個我學到了"},{"start":8380.785,"end":8399.842,"text":"所以你不是主委而已,你是政委員,政委員你要協調各部會的政策那你知道你也說到這個未來綠青綠青有幾個階段,有灰青有藍青要綠青你說明年度你要投入這個去掉藍青的發電計畫是藍綠青藍綠青,事實上台電已經有了"},{"start":8406.542,"end":8415.887,"text":"昨年在新達電廠我們就用這個燃氣混清5%的這個示範電廠那今年2025大概就是發電這個計畫已經成熟終於有這個相關的成果那具體落實在新達電廠"},{"start":8425.032,"end":8442.675,"text":"是的那初步是混清5%再慢慢做一個示範如果成效好我們再繼續再推廣所以這個部分當然我希望說未來綠清可成為一個主要的發言方式但是這個部分還有待科學上更多的克服"},{"start":8443.7,"end":8444.3,"text":"新經濟移民法"},{"start":8471.357,"end":8487.904,"text":"我們總統賴總統在當行政院議長的時候曾經提出新經濟移民法也是在國會發會有一段時間成為國會發會主推的優先法案當時解決人才跟人力的雙缺口"},{"start":8488.604,"end":8488.624,"text":"〔記者註冊〕"},{"start":8509.864,"end":8537.46,"text":"現階段如果你現在當主委會不會把這個當時我們賴總統當行政院長所推的新濟民法重新來推動我覺得要整合一個好的法案而不是各部分各部會是各行其事那這個效果我覺得是事半功倍那如果有一個專法來整合各部會那由國會去主推您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":8540.227,"end":8551.752,"text":"這個我們可以研究一下啦因為就我了解我們現在是有人才專法是讓高階的人才可以快速的移民進來我覺得是治標但不治本你要有一個專法"},{"start":8552.722,"end":8559.128,"text":"這是在總統當行政院長主推的這個優先法案那行政院長換人之後當然就有不同思考這個給你做參考那你不提我會來提"},{"start":8573.692,"end":8589.342,"text":"是我覺得要有一個專法來推動這個我們人才跟能力不足的問題來解決這個問題是那另外您有跟那個數化部這個黃部長AI的生態園區AI生態園區"},{"start":8594.284,"end":8620.286,"text":"北部要設立一個生態園區,南部要設立一個生態園區大概就是您跟蘇發部,蘇發部是您督導的嗎?不是沒關係,你用主委跟蘇發部黃部長趕快討論一下趕快把這個AI生態園區能夠落實,落實先把找一個點出來北部當然這個陳昌明可能他願意在陳昌明委員在苗栗可能有希望"},{"start":8621.717,"end":8626.222,"text":"南部的話我當然希望是在橋頭科學園區。橋頭科學園區是S廊帶的一個中心點。北有南科,中間有陸科,還有橋科,還有南子考驗園區。"},{"start":8637.119,"end":8662.337,"text":"所以你把AI生態園區設在橋頭園區我期待能夠把這個AI的這個園區因為我們條件都非常適合IC設計、晶圓製造、封裝測試什麼都在北高雄所以未來是不是可以考慮把這個AI生態園區把它設置在北高雄"},{"start":8664.355,"end":8690.38,"text":"我下午會跟黃部長開會我會轉達委員的意見來討論不是轉達你要深入研究我可以幫你做簡報我會給你做簡報因為這個所有條件我都非常清楚我可以做簡報讓你更清楚整個圖像整個條件然後你選擇出一個最好的一個地點所以北高雄是最好的一個點"},{"start":8693.174,"end":8715.294,"text":"那另外針對這個所得分配的狀況所得分配的狀況這個先講一下那個女性的勞參率因為勞參率這個你看比起其他國家香港、日本、南韓我們女性的勞參率是比較低的"},{"start":8717.885,"end":8745.382,"text":"中老年的淫髮族的勞參率也是偏低不管是中老年或者是青壯人口或者是女性的勞參率相對其他鄰近國家還低必須把這個原因找出來提出解決方案又一來鼓勵台灣女性的勞參率可以提高"},{"start":8747.385,"end":8770.447,"text":"謝謝主委 這個應該是列為你們這個工作計畫之一吧謝謝委員提醒我們會登這個題目去研究那另外就是說未來這個你的報告裡面有AI在臨床上就是說醫療服務的部分你AI在臨床上落地運用我看你的報告有提到這一點"},{"start":8771.727,"end":8800.054,"text":"所以你要怎麼樣確保這個醫療AI的安全跟效益這很重要所以你要這安全性效益你要先建置一個相對應的這個倫理準則因為你報告有提到這一點是的那這也是你好像上一次的報告裡面沒有提到這一點我發現你有這個想法你要怎麼樣突破醫療資料的這個使用的困境這裡面去思考這個問題你的想法是怎麼樣是同意"},{"start":8802.14,"end":8803.863,"text":"同意這個需要改善這個需要改善這個"},{"start":8809.355,"end":8835.851,"text":"我們現在是跟其實跟外務這邊現在正在主導一塊健康台灣的政策裡面數位醫療是放在裡面很重要的一項我同意我的觀點當然過來是好事我很開心但是你要有你的想法你要國發會國發會有你的主張有你的政策有你實行的這個時程這部分會來這是我的專業我會提出一些我們的看法"},{"start":8837.454,"end":8849.38,"text":"主席站起來後面還有委員要發言以後還有很多機會跟主委討論就是說您又是主委又是政委所以您的發言是動見觀瞻"},{"start":8852.381,"end":8880.39,"text":"被顯微鏡擴大來檢視,也有可能被放大鏡來把你的這個話無限上綱的延伸。所以這個要提醒您,謝謝。是,謝謝,謝謝委員。嗨,謝謝邱志維委員。那個指揮啊,南部的AI生態延期就設在邱志維的選區,我支持贊成。但是北部的話,要設在苗栗大溪谷計畫,我們苗栗延期好不好?你同意他也要同意我。"},{"start":8884.693,"end":8897.782,"text":"現在中嘉賓委員替代農美聯委員先請執行,現在請中嘉賓委員執行"},{"start":8911.612,"end":8920.358,"text":"感謝主席、謝謝委員先進、六位政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體機關女士先生有請我們劉主任委員"},{"start":8928.946,"end":8956.545,"text":"總委好主委好最近大家都要密切注意你的發言有關於我們的產業跟能源政策我的標題是我們臺灣這些跨足國際供應鏈的產業要靠綠能而且要善用臺灣的優勢佈局、輕能儲運好那在您的很多訪談當中呢強調AI時代算力及國力對不對是的好那您提到了三個重點齁如果未來預估用電需求會增加那我們要考慮的這三個問題是第一總用電的需求我們滿足對不對電夠不夠"},{"start":8958.936,"end":8983.279,"text":"第二個是低碳的電夠不夠以及如何減碳這才是重點是不是這樣是的好那再來才是我們2050的淨零目標那麼根據我們很紅的最近的合作童子賢董事長他說AI運算、電動車、晶片都需要大量電力所以電力也是國力你同意嗎同意但是他後面說的核能可以幫助綠能這個我就要來請教一下你的意見企業需要的是不是穩定供電"},{"start":8984.58,"end":9010.558,"text":"但是呢風光發電有供電的建設有間歇性所以企業對於供電有焦慮所以因此考慮核能就你了解是不是這個原因我先解釋一下核能現在是這樣子核能是一個低碳電但是核廢料要得到妥善的儲存才有機會去探討它是不是綠電但是以歐盟現在來看它還不被認為綠電目前歐盟合乎這個標準只有芬蘭"},{"start":9011.138,"end":9013.241,"text":"對,所以我們現在的不是綠電,那不在我的檢探範圍裡面是不是這樣的意思?"},{"start":9029.461,"end":9050.776,"text":"在歐盟的話,這不是荷蘭,芬蘭這我可能要再理解一下,我之前聽到是歐盟到現在對核電能不能是綠電還是有,還在討論當中至少看起來好像勉強只有芬蘭,往下看所以他只是有機會,但機會是可能是5%,可能是50%,這個叫dependence那個討論的結果所以這要釐清,不然大家都以為歐盟認為呢,核能是,核電是綠電"},{"start":9051.897,"end":9078.725,"text":"那麼積極發展符合RE100的再生能源 這才是我們真正的重心 是不是這樣沒錯 企業的壓力在這裡RE100有沒有包括 它的再生能源總理有沒有包括核電目前是沒有 因為他沒有辦法 那目前我們再生能源的憑證能滿足業界的需求嗎我們現在正在評估 那目前我們 一些以我們最新的路徑來看還差一些些 那我們現在是準備這樣做 就第一個是做IREC 就是國際力電憑證"},{"start":9080.365,"end":9107.962,"text":"那第二個呢我們台電這邊也會加速在那個探捕桌地方的減碳還有汽車的減碳我們有一個路徑去往這條路走這些產業這個需求都是一些外銷的大產業嗎?國內的中小企業需不需要?中小企業有外銷的目前都有這個需求有需求嗎?所以總體來講需求一直在成長好往下看是的那我們看一下台積電台積電未來的佈局啊在台灣加重投資啊所以它3奈米的產能增加3倍它對綠電的需求是不是要增加很多?是的"},{"start":9108.598,"end":9115.266,"text":"有人在說目前臺灣1000度的綠電當中臺積電買掉9999啊民間中小企業只有搶得到一度綠電你覺得這樣說法客觀嗎?這個細節我可能還要再去理解啦但是大部分被人拿走了嘛現在應該"},{"start":9128.214,"end":9130.716,"text":"我的認知有些企業還是有買到他要的"},{"start":9157.934,"end":9181.156,"text":"是的好,那麼台灣的青能產業布局是不是太保守?如果只是用氫來替代進口的石化燃料來發電您覺得這樣的台灣的青能產業布局是不是太保守了呢?呃,我不認為因為它是一個決戰未來能源的國際競爭力但是它只用來取代發電我的看法跟您交換一下意見其實呢往下看其實基金發展、氫能的民生運用跟儲運產業很重要"},{"start":9182.737,"end":9212.177,"text":"因為我們民生端比如說燃料電池的電動車、氫能車或者運輸端我們港口的儲運設施包括阿姆斯特丹、漢堡這些歐盟的國家都在大力的推動因為要進口這些氫能他用安或者其他方式進口他都需要有儲能設施和運輸設施的轉變是不是這樣子是的現在整個歐盟都在做這個實驗所以請你們一定要聯合經濟部跟交通部因為交通部呢港口是交通部管的往下看全球排前11名的航商當中台灣占了幾個你知道嗎"},{"start":9214.118,"end":9221.283,"text":"我寫出來了嗎?前11名的占了3個啦前20名的占了4個我們總的運能啊占了全世界的一成"},{"start":9222.25,"end":9242.382,"text":"那未來的船舶也是不是要用低碳燃料?是的,因為歐盟已經開始徵收已經記錄了嘛對,已經徵收了所以不只我們的運輸的船隊要用低碳燃料連他載運的這些飛行機也是要改成類似像安這樣的一個氫能原料,是不是這樣子?是的好,我再往下看所以是不是能夠用台灣的航運優勢政府積極的來輔導發展氫能儲運的產業?"},{"start":9245.894,"end":9256.648,"text":"是的好,那就給我答案,所以請你研議呢政府利用臺灣航運優勢、積極發展及輔導輕能民生應用和儲存船的可行性一個月提出一個報告,可以嗎?可以好,謝謝"},{"start":9265.066,"end":9284.087,"text":"那個反核式民進黨的神主牌,副黨神山,那個神主牌你不能亂去給他擋他們現在已經在跟你講話是叫你不要對核能亂發言,小心一點好不好好,現在請老美聯委員發言"},{"start":9293.367,"end":9294.168,"text":"謝謝主席 有請劉主委"},{"start":9306.945,"end":9326.184,"text":"國發會在2022年的時候有定下一個目標就是在2030年我們要增加19萬的僑外生留在台灣工作我們來看過去10年從2014年到2023年確確實實僑外生每一年留台的這個留台率是逐年的提高可是呢要"},{"start":9326.664,"end":9346.92,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":9347.54,"end":9369.769,"text":"在2023年這個目標年大概還有6年多的時間也就是說如果要達到這19萬強外生要留台的話大概每一年留在台灣的強外生人數必須要有3萬人左右我想請問國發會這不是喊一喊就有這個人數就出來了我想請教一下以目前的這個人數有可能"},{"start":9370.709,"end":9375.094,"text":"在未來的6年多就達標嗎?請問國發會有沒有跟相關單位像僑委會、勞動部來討論過相關的問題?這個細節我能不能請我們同仁先講我再補回答我再補充"},{"start":9391.87,"end":9413.055,"text":"謝謝委員關心有關喬外森流台的目標我們是優先是擴大我們前幾年是擴大了吸引喬外森來台我們擴增來源三倍的量能但這個部分將來他會陸續我們再提高他透過我們各項的一個流台的相關規定的放寬會提高他的流台的誘因"},{"start":9413.635,"end":9427.964,"text":"那這個部分我們希望從現成的48%會提高到6到7成那這樣子就有助於我們在2030年達到19萬這樣的目標所以你們對這個目標是有信心的對不對那當然我們這個"},{"start":9433.926,"end":9458.914,"text":"一般外專人是在台工作的這個辦法那再來就是喬外申的這個評點制那這兩個制度其實都有門檻比如說外專人才好了他有一個薪資門檻是47,971元所以有很多不符合想要走這一條的其實很多喬外申因為拿不到這個薪資只好轉而走這個"},{"start":9460.034,"end":9460.254,"text":"國發會主席"},{"start":9479.237,"end":9507.84,"text":"評點制的人數限制還有這個薪資的這個門檻我們會拿掉嗎?這點已經有共識會拿掉會拿掉?對所以以後沒有薪資沒有上限就對薪資門檻沒有上限對不對?配額沒有上限配額沒有配額機遷沒有上限那個薪資呢?薪資門檻呢?因為畢竟那以後呢那還有這個那個喬壞森的這評點制他還有產業別嘛他還有產業別的限制那產業的這部分有沒有要拿掉呢?"},{"start":9509.218,"end":9529.804,"text":"目前我們這些相關的都在檢討中包括勞動部也有在評估這個部分我們其實都有在納入研議中委員剛剛提到我想了解說勞動部目前他的這個他的這個想法他的這個未來想要走的方向是哪些你目前說已經有跟勞動部這邊做過討論了那請問勞動部這邊他的態度是什麼"},{"start":9534.915,"end":9535.596,"text":"目前有彈性來處理嗎?"},{"start":9553.409,"end":9553.449,"text":"對,有有"},{"start":9569.179,"end":9584.774,"text":"所以你們彈性的做法是怎樣的做法呢?對,因為是可以由那個廠商他提出申請,然後就是跨部會這樣的會商用個案許可的方式。過去就已經有在進行當中,可是你知道嗎?像你們之前的說法,僑外生很多都不知道。"},{"start":9585.294,"end":9591.678,"text":"他們只看到這個就是說公司資本額不足所以我就不符合資格了所以這個部分如果說過去有在做應該多加宣導可是我們所瞭解的是過去很多橋外生我們都不知道說你們有所謂的彈性的做法那我們這個會加強來宣導"},{"start":9602.304,"end":9619.326,"text":"那我在想說我也知道說像勞動部協會其實最近都有很密集的在討論橋外森的鬆綁的這個政策那我在想說國防會這邊有沒有了解說我們的進程我們大概是什麼時候會有一個進一步的這個政策的這個修訂請問"},{"start":9622.492,"end":9624.194,"text":"接下來我們請李坤誠委員請做詢問"},{"start":9655.891,"end":9660.796,"text":"謝謝主席主委在喝咖啡請主委我們請主委"},{"start":9669.571,"end":9692.465,"text":"主委好 主委好 其實也辛苦了 其實剛剛就是讓你先喝一下咖啡了 那請問一下 我相信也很多委員都請教你 因為最近你在跟媒體查序的時候提到說對於核能的看法 你有三個原則 第一個看電夠不夠 第二個是低碳電夠不夠 還有如何減碳 第三是2050的這個淨零目標 你這三個原則可不可以再花點時間再說清楚一點"},{"start":9693.405,"end":9715.581,"text":"我解釋一下,其實我是從企業來的,因為企業其實在意的是有沒有安全穩定的電,夠不夠電那其實為了這個其實我一開始我們有遇到台電的時候,大概我們都有提出來那台電其實告訴我的是他們的電力準備是非常完備的,那我也看到一些數據"},{"start":9717.162,"end":9730.572,"text":"所以它是夠的所以坦白講我在內部會議的時候我就有提出來那核電已經不是一個重要議題因為夠不夠才是一個重要議題那接下來我們要做的是我們做怎麼做淨零碳排的路徑的執行"},{"start":9731.257,"end":9757.819,"text":"因為你有提到就是說這個AI發展會增加到三成的電力的需求那個是對機房的部分不是總體電力總體電力的話應該不到1%將近現在是調到3%的總體增加我覺得這個要講清楚啦那是機房的部分對啊我想說這個我一看就說為什麼AI發展就需要這個3倍的電力所以是指機房的部分機房的部分全部的電力來講就增加1%全部電力從昨天經濟部出來的是總體會增加3%"},{"start":9759.701,"end":9784.258,"text":"議員．"},{"start":9784.338,"end":9784.538,"text":"是這樣的喔?"},{"start":9811.898,"end":9835.823,"text":"在歐盟來看的話第一個你的核廢料必須要有一個良好的儲存是良好的儲存那還是你要找到最終的這個處置的地方對最終處置場然後呢所以要講清楚喔你要儲存現在比如說現在核廢料也是有暫時的儲存啊比如放在新北啊跟找到這個最終的這個處置場是兩個不一樣的概念喔對對也因此其實歐盟到現在還沒有還沒有核准過綠能"},{"start":9837.612,"end":9855.585,"text":"對阿,因為現在這個核電還不算是綠電嗎?它不算綠電,它只是低碳,它不是綠電。對阿,我們的RE100裡面百分之百用再生能源也沒有包括核電嘛對不對?沒有包括,因為它不是再生能源。它不是再生能源。對。它也沒辦法找到最終的組織廠啦。對。好。那請教一下。它找到也不會是再生能源。好。"},{"start":9856.97,"end":9880.326,"text":"國民黨提出有關花東的三個法案這三個法案都沒有經過大家合理的討論兩分鐘之內就通過大概上兆的兩兆以上的法案包含花東快還有環島高速鐵路還有國六東延花蓮請問一下主委在國發會的規劃裡面"},{"start":9884.13,"end":9895.13,"text":"我看到你們花東有推動花東離島地區永續發展我問一下主委對於三大乾坑建設的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":9896.97,"end":9914.97,"text":"這個部份是交通的專業,我們沒有這個專業去評估,我們的做法是要它上的。但是它也是在國發會裡面對於花東的這個建設裡面,國民黨認為說如果沒有這三個交通建設,花東就沒辦法發展嘛,那我是問說這個國發會的態度啊。"},{"start":9917.694,"end":9920.575,"text":"目前至少他沒有可行性的研究沒有環境影響評估當然在委員會沒有實施討論"},{"start":9936.68,"end":9963.198,"text":"當然交通部會在做這個專業性評估那我只是就教這一個主委就是說在國發會的這一個這個施政的這一個方向裡面交通對於花東來講它不是唯一發展的必要性交通很重要但是對於花東有更多的一些資源投入進去可以促進花東的發展那如果像這一種這一個三大交通建設第一個"},{"start":9963.778,"end":9968.119,"text":"我還是覺得可惜性評估一定要專業的交通部來做以後然後也要有一個很完整的環境評估然後再經過討論然後才會有機會來"},{"start":9989.902,"end":9989.922,"text":"來探討"},{"start":10010.852,"end":10023.72,"text":"對我們來講花東的建設很重要但是這個第一個是淺坑法案第二個對於花東的這個環境自然人文都會造成影響那我請這個主委要多加考慮好不好是好謝謝謝謝謝謝接下來我們請陳廷飛委員請做詢談謝謝齁召委我們請主委我們再請主委"},{"start":10046.584,"end":10061.673,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想現在我們希望現在一直在期待有一個AI的研發中心是那這個有沒有可能在台南"},{"start":10063.566,"end":10087.811,"text":"來協助這樣的一個AI研發中心來帶動地方的產業鏈智慧化的升級轉型其實大家知道應該主委因為你產業界過來的你知道很多的隱形產業就是在台南對所以基本上他們從過去靠著自己然後一路走到現在現在都面臨一個必須轉型的時間關鍵點了"},{"start":10091.038,"end":10101.711,"text":"因為我們要跟世界接軌現在AI是非常重要的而且我們怎麼將傳統改變轉型也是一個大工程"},{"start":10102.785,"end":10121.473,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分如果能夠協助在台南爭取一個新建我們的AI研發中心協助這些傳產協助我們這些中小企業地方產業能夠把智慧化的升級我相信這非常重要"},{"start":10122.423,"end":10147.072,"text":"主委你認為呢?這個我想整個AI的發展覺得是我們重中之重那我這個設計整個我們現在是這樣會先設計裡面的內容然後之後我們至於它會變成虛擬化還是或是一個實際地點這個還要跟速發部的討論那我們今天下午會討論我想會把委員的看法也會也會轉達給那個部長"},{"start":10149.144,"end":10173.598,"text":"因為現在這個研發中心我想這個有這樣的傳言說我們的黃仁勛黃總裁這個等我們臺南之光這個江建瀨總統要希望在這個研發中心的地點可以從高雄跟臺南去二選一來打造臺灣的AI島是不是有這樣的傳言?"},{"start":10177.105,"end":10201.058,"text":"這個傳言我不清楚現在大家都很期待所以我會今天在這個質詢當中提出這樣的一個看法就是說如果真的在整個研發中心AI的研發中心如果要真的從高雄跟台南去二則一台南其實最適當因為他現在"},{"start":10204.377,"end":10204.597,"text":"主委你認為呢?"},{"start":10234.637,"end":10247.256,"text":"我想委員講得很有道理啦,我會轉達我們可能一起整體讓大家會特別也參考,我想台南一定是在選項之一啦,我們來努力看看"},{"start":10247.878,"end":10276.296,"text":"因為我相信土地一定沒有問題嘛 這個AI的研發中心土地一定是最首要之重嘛 沒土地就不用說了嘛 台南土地一定沒問題嘛 台南看你要選到哪一地我們一定全力支持嘛 然後再來我們也有一些所謂的相關的不斷電資訊的處理系統的一個電力供給 這也都是我們在進行當中 所以我認為"},{"start":10277.962,"end":10294.905,"text":"臺南有他適合的地理位置有他適合的條件而且在各方的一些產業資源當中一定我們能夠全力配合所以這個在拜託我們的主委希望能夠把我們的聲音"},{"start":10296.212,"end":10298.433,"text":"發言委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":10315.789,"end":10337.692,"text":"這才是重要所以我利用今天的質詢把我們地方的期待把我們地方的需求然後跟主委報告希望主委可以幫我們轉達能夠幫我們在討論如果真的有機會做這樣的一個AI研發中心的時候要把台南變成首要的"},{"start":10338.615,"end":10366.843,"text":"一些我們的決定的地理位置這個才是我們需要我們主委來幫忙那另外一個部分是我們現在有很多中小企業的智慧轉型的計畫由中央來協助可是這些其實主委你看過之後你是來行人你看過之後這都是在教育的部分"},{"start":10367.97,"end":10395.544,"text":"並沒有全面我們在協助中小企業智慧轉型不能只有focus在教育這個區塊我們應該的是全面性對不對對中小企業的智慧轉型不是只有教育所以我們在問的是我們到底國發會如果你要協助中小企業智慧轉型這個計畫你們是整合人"},{"start":10396.806,"end":10425.16,"text":"你們整合各部會你們是不是應該整合得更為精進更為提升而不是單向反正有在做就好了教育部有在做你也把他納入說這是我的智慧轉型不是那麼簡單啊中小企業的智慧轉型不是只有在教育這個區塊這兩個是差很多對不對主委是不是是的你剛看到這個計畫"},{"start":10426.837,"end":10450.815,"text":"我們去調了說臺南市協助就是我們中央的預算來協助臺南市那臺南市來協助中小企業智慧轉型的一些相關的計畫名稱計畫內容我們調出來的居然是這些居然是這些主委你看完你內行你看完之後有什麼想法"},{"start":10452.586,"end":10480.042,"text":"我們其實在我們的計畫裡面本來就有一段是要照顧傳產透過AI轉型那我想我們會在整個國家發展計畫裡面會把整體產業一起考慮進來那就不會產生這不平衡現象這個是我們用我們協助中小企業智慧轉型這樣的名稱下去調的資料就調到這幾個"},{"start":10483.403,"end":10510.979,"text":"這幾個幾乎都是在教育的區塊比較多所以這不是智慧轉型不是智慧轉型有很多方向可是你要把它區分什麼是教育什麼是中小企業什麼區塊每一個區塊其實是不一樣表示智慧轉型現在是已經是重中之重了可是你不能是好像反正有在做就好了"},{"start":10511.92,"end":10513.041,"text":"這個部分會讓大家覺得到底什麼是智慧轉型?"},{"start":10527.796,"end":10536.282,"text":"自衛轉型的精神是什麼會亂掉所以我是用這個來提醒再來就是說這個再請我們主委你這個會後再給我們一個報告就是說"},{"start":10544.128,"end":10567.987,"text":"我們國發會如何協助我們的賴總統打造五大信賴產業半導體產業、人工智慧產業、軍工產業、安控產業、通訊產業這五大信賴產業我們打算怎麼做國發會打算怎麼幫忙協助打造然後我的區塊在哪裡"},{"start":10568.848,"end":10570.489,"text":"我需要這些資料再麻煩一個月拜託一個月好謝謝"},{"start":10600.302,"end":10600.743,"text":"主席主委有請主委"},{"start":10628.167,"end":10651.776,"text":"委員早主委午安吶這個看了你的背景吼跟剛剛聽了一些委員的質詢吼還有看了你們今天這一本業務報告吼本期要做幾點提醒也做一些政策的對話這我們當然知道賴清德總統上任之後新的內閣希望帶動AI啦這個科技啦國防啦等等的這些信賴產業那您過去也有在外商服務的經驗但是吼"},{"start":10652.316,"end":10653.277,"text":"目前我的了解是只有在附加價值率占了58.5%"},{"start":10672.233,"end":10694.048,"text":"那就業人口數我現在手上沒有資料就業人口數大概是兩成左右啦那請問主委知不知道臺灣的服務業的就業人口數占全國人口多少大概百分之六十二百分之六十嘛對不對所以我看了這本報告之後我是有點擔心啦因為我們把很多的重點國家發展的重要的資源投入以及政策的規劃都放在這些高上大的產業上面但相對來講我看到我為這60%的服務業從業人員感到很擔憂啊"},{"start":10697.93,"end":10727.083,"text":"因為最近不管是通貨膨脹也好或是怎麼樣也好即便景氣回溫但顯然這些60%的這一群相對多數的服務業、從業人口薪水是沒有提升的然後造成了一個惡性循環因為我的工作待遇不好工作待遇不好的時候當然就變成缺工的狀況更嚴重缺工狀況更嚴重的時候對於商家來講要推動轉型或是走出新的路他難度跟門檻就變高了請問針對服務業現在的缺工跟低薪的困境啊國發會有沒有任何的政策配套跟政策方向"},{"start":10728.69,"end":10748.895,"text":"在我們新的規劃裡面因為這個62%的這個就業人口數他必須被充分的照顧到那我們這裡面我們其實做了一個圖表的分析大部分的附加價格率是比較偏低的那我們這裡面拉兩塊一塊是為了未來AI需要的人才我們會希望大幅的拉動資訊服務業"},{"start":10750.715,"end":10769.277,"text":"剩下的產業我們現在的做法是這樣我們目前的規劃是希望透過自衛化的方式增強他在市場行銷跟管理上的競爭力還有供應鏈競爭力之外我們可能會鼓勵他們去做結盟就是產業控股公司的結盟方式"},{"start":10770.017,"end":10793.33,"text":"讓他的資本變大以後呢可以前進國外那原因是說我們在製造業可以看到很多國際級的台灣產業在國際競爭但服務業沒有那要走出去的話當然我們資訊服務業拉起來之後另外還有一塊就是要這個產業要有能力走出去變成一個比較大的企業那產業控股是一個可能的方式所以我們目前大概朝這幾個方向在規劃"},{"start":10794.591,"end":10819.168,"text":"我希望下一次再看到這個國發會的業務報告裡面針對台灣服務業的轉型跟提升要有更加具體的一個說法那您剛剛報告的這些東西我希望會後提供一份書面資料可以嗎我想了解一下國發會這一部分的政策規劃第二個問題是過去我們看到2020年國發會其實有推動國發會包山包海主委應該很清楚有推動叫做穩定房地產對策請問主委上台之後國發會要不要繼續做穩定房地產的對策"},{"start":10820.469,"end":10824.832,"text":"這個跟主委講句比較不客氣的話很諷刺的就是在2020的穩定房地產對策上推動之後基本上就迎來了台灣就迎來了"},{"start":10840.524,"end":10859.236,"text":"房價再次飛漲的一個階段所以你越打房價越漲最近本期選區歸山還有那個預售屋排隊搭帳棚在那邊排隊的他們真的是資助客嗎還是投資客我們政府的這一段時間的對於房地產市場的平穩跟相關的一些措施真的有見效嗎我是希望主委對這一塊也要多加來琢磨"},{"start":10860.517,"end":10886.038,"text":"因為我剛剛講的60%相對來講辛苦的服務業、從業人員除了一般通貨膨脹的衝擊之外另外最大的衝擊都來自於房價我們希望台灣未來的經濟發展走的是一個健康的模式也就是說它有高科技產業在前面做龍頭讓這群人先可以賺到所得的利潤但相對來講其他也要跟上來分配要有更公平正義那有關居住正義的這部分請問國發會有沒有一些想法簡單的說明就好了"},{"start":10887.279,"end":10907.234,"text":"目前有一些初步的想法我們正在評估中那我們希望協助蓋更多的社會宅那另外一部分我們現在正在協調的是採用財務工程的方式希望引投資的資金進來做這件事目前才在規劃中還沒有很成熟那大概多久時間內會有一個比較具體的政策方向"},{"start":10907.962,"end":10932.277,"text":"我們是希望三個月左右因為牽扯的細節比較多還有牽扯到法令的問題那如果有這個資助的話他整個建的速度會增快好,我希望可以看到具體的方向我希望國防會把這部分也作為重點就是除了經濟發展之外公平正義也非常重要這是本席一直以來關注的焦點希望諸位新官商人好好努力,可以嗎?可以可以,謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":10937.782,"end":10953.354,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請王紅薇委員請做詢答謝謝主席麻煩我們劉主委另外我們幾位處長綜合規劃處、經濟發展處、產業發展處麻煩也隨著主委一起上好我們請三位處長也一併上主委請上"},{"start":10966.426,"end":10976.512,"text":"主委好,我呼籲一下剛才牛許廷委員他所諮詢的內容其實在這次新政府裡面,包含主委還有我們的數法部部長跟經濟部的部長,被外界認為是有亮點的一個隔緣的安排"},{"start":10982.296,"end":10994.103,"text":"但是呢不可諱言的我們幾位現在新的閣員基本上你們的資歷非常的好非常亮眼但是確實都屬於高大上的產業感覺呢沒有什麼庶民經濟的相關的一些經驗那所以呢我把它具體而為的特別為什麼也請三位處長一起來聽一下"},{"start":11008.331,"end":11014.696,"text":"昨天主計處發布了一個訊息統計資料我個人認為這是對於很多的我們講數名經濟非常重要一個資料因為他們是固定的去調查台灣的攤販數還有他的交易金額以及他的利潤出現了一個地下經濟的震痛期我不曉得震痛還是會變成長痛期"},{"start":11034.711,"end":11050.821,"text":"我們台灣的攤販數35年來出現了加數下降最多而且利潤也下降最多的一個狀況這個我們是可以理解因為包含我們現在不管是網購啦、電子支付啦、外賣等等一定會衝擊這些攤販"},{"start":11053.743,"end":11072.639,"text":"那所以我們今天除了我們在講AI產業科技產業我們的淨零排放等等之類但是對於這這麼多的一個就業人口的攤販數的急劇下降我們政府可不可以想辦法有一些協助好我直接講"},{"start":11073.78,"end":11092.605,"text":"在我在擔任臺北市議員的時候其實我們在臺北市做了一個非常大的努力就是讓傳統的市場攤販能夠做電子支付所以像在臺北市所有公有市場現在電子支付的普及率已經超過90%"},{"start":11094.045,"end":11094.465,"text":"我看你再點頭哈"},{"start":11123.934,"end":11148.733,"text":"那我要講就說除了臺北市之外很多的縣市可能也有在做可是做了一些時間因為攤販他可能非常的反彈或者是說基本上大家都可以想到了一個他付手續費他覺得我成本增加另外一個他很怕國稅局來幫他查稅等等之類的所以他會有一些反彈或者抗拒所以呢"},{"start":11149.794,"end":11157.702,"text":"現在除了台北市之外其實他推行的並不是很好可是呢我覺得這些的攤販轉型必須要做的比如說現在外賣也好或者網購也好越來越多好我舉例來講"},{"start":11165.109,"end":11182.627,"text":"台北市就是因為有大力的推動攤販的電子支付所以別說包含在台北市的我們中山市場還有松江市場這都是我的選區啊他有傳統的市場但是呢他在外賣他全部都上架所以並不是只有全聯上架你要買生鮮食品並不是只有在全聯哦"},{"start":11183.388,"end":11186.209,"text":"你可以在我們這些很好的市場買到更好的生鮮食品好別說南門市場當然這也很有名所以如果未來我們能夠推動這樣的市場攤販能夠成功轉型的話這樣的一個大浪潮會使得我們非常好的服務業非常好的攤販他繼續能夠在市場存活"},{"start":11204.716,"end":11211.24,"text":"所以這一點非常重要所以我在這邊也拜託主委除了高大上的產業之外也能夠來關心我們這樣的一個傳統產業怎麼樣讓他搭上這樣的便車轉型勢在必行當然這個要請經濟部經濟部有些輔導辦法但是看起來輔導不利啊因為可能有一些攤商他還在抗拒中"},{"start":11226.929,"end":11231.013,"text":"另外花一點點時間不好意思我要跟主委講因為主委接受媒體採訪談到就是你談到核電的重要性你也談到說清電的重要性但是也想跟主委讓主委了解"},{"start":11244.06,"end":11261.477,"text":"國際能源署他的預估2050年全球的清電的占比是1%而國發會做出來的也根據為了要符合我們2050的淨零排放的目標做出來的清電的占比 諸位知道是多少嗎"},{"start":11265.492,"end":11289.862,"text":"9到12%9到12% 主委你覺得這數字有沒有怪怪的?如果全球 因為全球都要淨零排放不是只有台灣才要嗎?如果全球做出來是1%但是我們國發會當然為了要配合 因為不能做核電了 怎麼來補充呢?所以做出9到12%你有沒有感覺1%跟9到12%台灣會不會怪怪的 我們會不會太過的高估?好 因為你要去中研院去找廖院長"},{"start":11291.002,"end":11314.116,"text":"中研院的,它也是針對淨零排放的科技的政策建議書你知道2050年它的建議是多少嗎?清電的百分比要多少嗎?您知道嗎?好,我來告訴你,因為我時間我不要...達到四分之一可能嗎?達到四分之一國際百分之一我們..."},{"start":11316.759,"end":11338.312,"text":"國發會預估9%到12%我以10%好了10倍然後中研院的建議是達到4分之1所以你就知道我希望讓那個諸位有一些概念如果我們做一個完全高於而且超出世界趨勢的預期你就會知道我們的這樣的規劃會是怪怪的"},{"start":11340.914,"end":11340.934,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":11371.178,"end":11379.246,"text":"王珊珊委員請作詢答"},{"start":11400.219,"end":11421.979,"text":"主委長我想我們在看到您對雜誌的這個專訪裡面我看到的一句話是你希望大的國發會可以回來這句話是什麼意思你可以再說一遍嗎我是希望我是對我們同仁的勉勵我們希望能夠多一點主導性來把國家的未來的規劃做得比較完整"},{"start":11422.319,"end":11447.138,"text":"沒錯,應該是回到我們台灣在經濟發展之前有經建會當時的經建會它為國家破壞了未來長期建設的進度跟計畫可是自從相關的總統職選之後這些計畫很多都跟著任期被打亂我想如果您的願景是這樣我希望真正能夠落實所以今天有一個很重要的我也認為說"},{"start":11449.34,"end":11471.475,"text":"賴總統請您從業界從企業界來這個對國家來說可能也是另外一個新的攪動我所謂的長期的所謂的官僚體系那去年也就是第10屆的第8會期臺灣民眾黨的吳信義委員要求行政院指派成立主權基金的主責單位當時的行政院長陳建仁當場承諾交由國發會來規劃"},{"start":11475.39,"end":11502.175,"text":"我想問一下現在後來國發會也開了很多跨部會的會議來討論但是後來進入看守討論就不了了之但是我們的案子台灣民眾黨在這一屆的國會我們也提出了主權基金的法案所以我現在要問主委國發會目前還有沒有這個規劃還是說陳建元院長卸任了所以這個案子就胎死腹中了主委你的看法呢"},{"start":11505.27,"end":11534.659,"text":"您來自業界我希望你來幫國家賺錢我們同仁的說法是現在在部會的討論中您自己的看法您現在這樣講說你要當大國發會如果現在我們現在各種地方都在討論財政收支劃分法的問題財劃法地方都說沒錢中央也說我要管我要做很多事所以我也沒有錢分給你我們的問題是這些錢就這麼多另外一個方法就是"},{"start":11536.044,"end":11564.942,"text":"政府去多賺點錢回來所以主權基金是基於這樣的方式不是讓大家一直在同一塊餅裡面分餅而是去把餅再怎麼樣做大所以您來這個業界您也做過非常多企業的顧問一樣的方法我只是希望能不能夠帶進到政府裡面把這個觀念比照包括接下去很多的國家都有主權基金在應付所謂的高齡化的社會所以主委您不能沒有想法"},{"start":11565.903,"end":11566.606,"text":"你的想法是什麼?"},{"start":11567.774,"end":11595.541,"text":"這個部分我們還是要去研究因為坦白講我比較希望是我們同仁我們去看一下各國的一些執行狀態因為有些國家其實執行的效果就我的瞭解並沒有預期的那麼好所以我們可能要把這些經驗吸取進來然後做一個比較完整的規劃會比較好帶入業界的概念是臺灣不會只是一直不斷的在這塊餅裡面炒來炒去如果我們可以我們的外匯存底很多"},{"start":11596.121,"end":11623.851,"text":"現在只是說誰來做怎麼做而且怎麼樣做到可以達到我們預期的效益而不是只是單純的把一筆錢拿出去亂花而已我想這個是需要長期規劃但是我需要我希望知道的是您接任之後陳建仁院長的承諾這個政策能不能夠持續的延續我們會繼續還是繼續把它演繹出來好第二個部分就是我看到你也說我們的"},{"start":11625.865,"end":11647.493,"text":"外國的外商不太容易進來的原因是外資留不住因為我們的英文環境很差雙語國家政策也是國發會的重要政策之一然後賴總統在這上面也講了很多但是在去年的大選大家也看到了第一線的教師其實受到很大的衝擊而且有非常多反彈的意見所以我想問一下主委沒錯"},{"start":11648.598,"end":11665.549,"text":"台灣要繼續發展人工智慧AI我們英語環境可能也是我們英語能力很重要的一環所以我想問一下雙語國家的政策你有什麼想法還是會延續2030年高中以下所有英文要全英文教然後三分之一的學校都要有英文教學"},{"start":11666.369,"end":11666.889,"text":"主委,您的看法"},{"start":11683.387,"end":11713.387,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11713.787,"end":11713.807,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":11736.414,"end":11761.542,"text":"接下來我們請黃旺凱委員請做詢答那我們中午不休息延長開會時間至議程處理完畢謝謝主席謝謝麻煩請留主委我們再請留主委主委好委員好主委好本席今天特別看了一下業務報告"},{"start":11762.898,"end":11773.603,"text":"第一點就是創新經濟其中五大信賴產業但我想也跟昨天我在交易文化委員會來討論的這個用電的概念人員的部分"},{"start":11774.629,"end":11800.13,"text":"經濟部自己親口講說因為現在考量到半導體跟AI用電的需求大也因此預估2023年到2029年整體用電需求年均成長率已經上修到3%一年成長率3%2023年到2029年我們不算複利的概念它至少6年的時間要上升18%"},{"start":11801.511,"end":11818.02,"text":"那18%的部分我們就說到目前為止即便是賴清德總統到2028年的一個任期你都要有15%的用電成長這是第一個第二今年7月和三廠的一號機要停止運轉"},{"start":11820.539,"end":11844.66,"text":"和三廠二號機明年要停止運轉到目前為止此時此刻台灣的和電發電量占全體台灣的用電6.2%所以我們剛講到2028年要上升15%的用電量我們現在又要降低6.2%的用電所以加起來20%的缺口還有"},{"start":11845.854,"end":11846.154,"text":"我們要達到24-1啊"},{"start":11869.328,"end":11895.447,"text":"24加減125%嘛 對不對23至25%是那現在我們全國的發電排碳大宗其中就是藍莓燃氣發電也就是我們台電那現在2025年的非核家園的規劃有高達八成是用火力發電所以到了2030你要再下修四分之一的排電量、排碳量"},{"start":11896.967,"end":11919.453,"text":"我們現在又是火力發電、火力全開我想請教一來一往之際這樣的一個數字沒有任何政治因素完全都是數學、完全都是數據我做夢我都會驚恐因為這代表說未來的五年內台灣面臨到非常大的能源缺口卓偉你怎麼看?"},{"start":11921.347,"end":11945.743,"text":"分兩個階段,第一個是電的部分其實我在幾次會議我都有詳細問過你有講三方面嘛第一電夠不夠第二低碳電夠不夠第三淨零的目標目前台電的規劃他很肯定是一定夠的那這個其實包括院長當時也問過那電是夠的那我那因為我本身不是主管機關我是覺得所以你是相信台電的講法"},{"start":11946.644,"end":11948.626,"text":"蔡英文政府時代4次5次大跳電都來了,台電沒有跳票嗎?"},{"start":11968.787,"end":11979.412,"text":"電網的問題吧,我至少聽到的是這樣的那我比較有在負責的是這個路徑的問題那路徑問題其實我們現在正在盤點那盤點完的差異我們現在有幾條路徑在走第一個路徑是我們會實驗那個藍綠青的發電我們現在只是填充而已那藍綠青的發電它是一個零碳排的發電"},{"start":11993.379,"end":12014.506,"text":"本席都理解,你也講到是說6月6日的時候你要跟中研院這邊再去做進一步的討論嘛對但是現在藍綠青的部分兩個部分啦第一技術成不成熟還要商榷第二它的發電成本高不高目前看起來它的發電成本是跟再生能源、太陽能的發電差不多也就平均1.5電差不多4塊5左右"},{"start":12017.373,"end":12041.745,"text":"對比其他的發電模式都來著成本高所以我們才會想到是說如果即便藍綠青的發電是技術能夠在短時間內成熟當然這非常的困難因為國際趨勢目前還沒有即便是日本是青年發展最前面的大國到目前為止日本的青年發電也都沒有占到他們的十分之一"},{"start":12043.106,"end":12067.672,"text":"所以主委我現在很務實的要請教其實講到那麼多我都務實的要請教如果你們今天的報告或說你在至少為賴清德總統四年任內規劃國家發展策略要做國家希望工程第一個首要是創新經濟而創新經濟裡面半導體人工智慧你又把它變成是五大信賴產業的其中兩大項"},{"start":12068.812,"end":12097.395,"text":"他是如此需要能源的但能源的缺口現在每年的成長還有我們現在在河山場的一號機、二號機也要在今年、明年來停止那我們到底有哪裡有這些底氣可以來做到本席當然希望我們的產業要發展但重點在於是如果到目前為止我們國發會都還沒有辦法去主導或說建議賴清德政府要不要捨去非核家園這個神主牌的話我們有其他的管道可以做到嗎"},{"start":12099.058,"end":12099.959,"text":"您會不會建議政府部門提出修法的要求?"},{"start":12118.486,"end":12135.486,"text":"因為我們現在是電視,以台電的規劃是夠,夠的話就沒有提出修法有把它算入未來5年每年成長3%成長15%的需求嗎?依台電開會的說法是有的。也有?是有的。您相信嗎?"},{"start":12140.52,"end":12166.59,"text":"你產業的經驗主委本席非常尊重專業所以如果說你只是丟給台電說他認為15%我們常講一句話眼見為憑嘛他的15%哪裡來尤其是過去確實我們不管是電網的韌性不足以及相關的國人會懷疑是說我們到底電夠不夠或是捉襟見肘否則怎麼會一個小小的跳電或事件就變成是全台電網的一個停擺"},{"start":12167.861,"end":12178.937,"text":"那如果說未來5年要成長15%今年明年又少了6%的核電一來一往是20%你認為5年內台電有準備多出20%的發電量嗎?"},{"start":12182.35,"end":12207.325,"text":"按照他的說法,他其實準備的量是...是夠的,就是火力發電、火力全開所以我們沒有辦法減碳減碳另外跟委員報告,現在還有一個就是現在已經有一些廠商也開始裝藍綠青的這個除能做備援那這個東西也是另外一種綠電的發展那如果我們將來在鼓勵上面走的話他會讓我們的金融路徑應該是有機會達到"},{"start":12209.826,"end":12226.463,"text":"現在已經有安裝了,已經在用了那個比例有多少?我都不好意思戳破了各位,我很務實的提,我只想請教因為您在這幾次的媒體報導都已經講得非常好我也認同你務實的想法看起來你是沒有擁抱非核家園這樣的神主牌"},{"start":12228.542,"end":12247.513,"text":"還是你有?粉絲不要誤會你會不會堅持非核家園?按照2025年的計畫其實2025年shut down之後其實就沒有核電廠了以目前現實的面子所以你也不會建議以國發會主委的高度你來自產業你也不會建議這4年要重啓核電?"},{"start":12249.013,"end":12274.827,"text":"他決定在於我們的電準備夠不夠是啊,所以我剛剛講啦我剛剛講的是說你相不相信台電說他們準備是夠的嘛如果說要有兩成的用電缺口第一你相信台電那就代表是說你覺得準備夠所以你這四年的任期假設你可以做滿四年這四年的任期你不會建議重啟核電但如果說你認為說這兩成的電力缺口是有疑慮的是不夠的"},{"start":12275.447,"end":12298.495,"text":"或是說您再進一步去了解台電的狀況發覺可能會有缺口那可能你就會建議重啟核電但是政府現在是你們在當家你們在執政啊所以你一定要讓而且最重要是什麼最重要的是不管你用再生能用其他能源來講產業能不能相信這個能源是穩定的進一步來說服產業投資在台灣"},{"start":12300.458,"end":12317.239,"text":"您來自產業,您一定更了解產業的想法嗎?有,其實我們不斷都有在溝通是,所以您到底您現在今年的供電狀況是大家知道你不要講今年嘛,我們現在講到2028年至少賴清德總統第一任的任期嘛對,我們得面對一個實際的現實是就是說"},{"start":12319.962,"end":12345.306,"text":"如果今天假設缺電的話其實要重啟核電那按照整個法令程序他起碼要在5年他絕對是緩不及急所以我如果是我我不會建議你不會建議重啟核電因為我們要建議的會是一個怎麼樣盡快達到先達到供電穩定那基本上我從台電的計畫來看他是有他一直有在monitor這段"},{"start":12349.062,"end":12363.073,"text":"本席今天只是想要確認我們國發會主委的態度我不帶任何預設立場因為有些個人都有各自的預設立場但是如果說您今天這是您的態度的話"},{"start":12363.874,"end":12364.574,"text":"是的是的"},{"start":12380.97,"end":12406.033,"text":"好,我們期待你剛剛講的我希望啦還是可以諸位如果說之後有機會可以再跟台電進一步的瞭解因為您是國家發展的火車頭所以說產業的部分、能源的部分以及您過去講到這三方面我覺得都希望你站在產業的角度來好好的思考做整體的評估好不好好謝謝,謝謝諸位謝謝"},{"start":12412.315,"end":12437.891,"text":"接下來我們請謝一芬委員請做詢答謝謝主席我想要請我們劉金青主委我們再請主委謝委員早主委早安"},{"start":12439.827,"end":12463.218,"text":"我其實很想要瞭解當我們把就是氫能的發展然後把它設定成國家能源的這個目標之一但是你有沒有什麼具體的專法或者是你認為在政府部門裡面應該有就是說有什麼部會共同來推動"},{"start":12464.699,"end":12492.72,"text":"你們國發會有沒有做相關的規劃那以及有沒有訂出相關的期成額例如好像中研院他們的濾清的發展那到底什麼時候我們能夠就是說有一個訂定的目標我們在幾年後要就是說可以生產出多少的清能或者是那要能夠有加清站能夠蓋出多少座的加清站有沒有這樣具體的規劃"},{"start":12495.171,"end":12520.738,"text":"目前是沒有但是有一個有一個大的工程的計劃確定是在明年會推動那就是在電廠裡面去裝設濾清的轉換的實驗工程那這個工程出來以後他實驗效果不錯之後就會進行到其他的機組去那達到零碳排的路徑在台電的部分嗎對在台電那這個案子已經申請上來了"},{"start":12521.978,"end":12536.043,"text":"我們還沒有合定我們還是希望再做一個細部的檢討跟規劃那就會往下走那這個話這個是一個零碳排的一個做法那另外就是在民間企業開始現在也過去每一家都會有備援電力"},{"start":12536.923,"end":12562.049,"text":"那大家開始也在也有一些廠商開始在在拋棄傳統的這個這個柴油發電機改用這個藍綠青的方式在做在桃園現在這些都有些廠商在做那這個這個部分他的備用電力也是一個綠綠電的部分他是藍綠青的綠電那這個這個如果也同時有我們如果能夠同時推廣下去的話那他會讓我們的淨零碳排的路徑是應該是有機會達到的"},{"start":12563.669,"end":12580.559,"text":"那如果就是說你都沒有定定一個目標的時候我們就沒有辦法知道說我們的電力成長的就是說電力的成長有沒有藉由濾清的方式那如果不是藉由清能的方式我們還有什麼其他的方式"},{"start":12582.994,"end":12600.988,"text":"我們現在的目標是用近鄰的角度去定的在2030年要降24%的降低24%加減1的降低那這個目標是存在的我們是以這個目標反推回來來看碳必須減少多少的"},{"start":12601.728,"end":12627.493,"text":"對,可是我們青城的發展有辦法就是達到就是我們電力的缺口嗎?跟委員報告一下以前我的公司我們有一個永續發展公司那其實我們全球一直有在做這種濾清的研究那這個研究呢其實在歐洲目前來講在德國的Fost的這個工業區也好法國的那個渡輪也好在阿姆斯特丹的垃圾車也好在歐洲現在在做一個實驗室一個貨運"},{"start":12629.053,"end":12650.505,"text":"那連空中巴士都定了2035年他要達到氫能源的飛機的發展那這整個都在走的時候我們當時整個全球的研究那下來是2030年會開始進入技術成熟的推動那到2035年會商轉的成熟期商轉的成熟期"},{"start":12651.125,"end":12670.24,"text":"可是你現在沒有辦法預估?對,那這個過渡期我們用的是藍綠青藍綠青現在是已經在運作了就是有民間廠商在用了然後有我們在準備在法利亞電廠也做類似的實驗但是我是說那如果未來萬一電力的成長有缺口的時候怎麼處理?"},{"start":12672.506,"end":12692.352,"text":"那個是我們會滾動式的去去去去挖取他嗎對那何能的那何能會不會成為就是我們在這個缺口外的選擇好像沒有排除我說新的新的呃行政院那個團隊沒有排除是不是呃他是"},{"start":12693.217,"end":12701.382,"text":"他是一個來不及喔就是當我們發現他不足的時候一定會來不及那如果是我們當時是用比較用瓦斯的話那天然氣的話我們可能會採取這個購買國際綠電憑證來彌補"},{"start":12708.598,"end":12712.04,"text":"當要重啟的時候臺電要寫一本非常厚的一個報告書 這個報告書他們大概是要寫一年半"},{"start":12725.248,"end":12753.688,"text":"然後進到河岸會之後河岸會審核大概是一年半以後回復改善那回復改善要多久就要看台電改多久那這個來回的過程裡面應該會在可能會到5年的時間然後之後要得到PA review要找國際電廠來檢核它是不是安全可以開啟所以現在目前的相關的修法是不是趕不及演繹的時間目前來看是趕不及那是不是要修專法"},{"start":12755.353,"end":12779.403,"text":"我對專法不是那麼理解但是就河安會的說法是從現在來看的話他們是認為是來不及那來不及的話可能我們從我們得解決產業的問題的話所以現在就是台電用他現在的方法在做解決那他的方法是什麼就是如果有需要會增加機組那包括幾個那會不會增加碳排"},{"start":12781.548,"end":12785.351,"text":"您們都用購買綠電憑證?沒有,不只綠電憑證,還有碳捕捉技術,還有我們現在實驗藍綠氫的發電。這個計畫其實是比較大的計畫,因為它還有要買藍綠氫的機組。"},{"start":12798.901,"end":12814.762,"text":"可是你們就是說用這樣子藍綠青的機組有辦法降碳排嗎?就是能降多少?因為你們目前規劃是要降多少?藍綠青是零碳排他是零碳排的那我們目標在2030年是要降24%"},{"start":12816.625,"end":12818.726,"text":"是因為你沒有辦法預布嗎?還是你沒有確切的目標?沒有"},{"start":12833.72,"end":12845.747,"text":"還是你這個目標沒有辦法跟我們說?不是沒有喔,我們其實我們已經算了我們已經算了那目前從各種我們的路徑減下來的話呢我們目前呢大概還有7%的缺口那會由這個藍綠青來補足這一塊我們目前是這樣還有綠電憑證的購買來補足這一塊"},{"start":12851.892,"end":12857.196,"text":"就是7個那這樣的話目前來看是有機會但是因為這是一個比較大的實驗所以我們還是要看協助他實驗是實驗還是事辦計畫他是一個事辦計畫他實驗兩年了抱歉我講錯了他實驗結束了現在是要進入大量商轉的一個計畫他不是實驗吧因為我們的電力發展是經不起實驗的"},{"start":12880.674,"end":12895.121,"text":"他是一個示範的計畫吧?是不是?示範計畫還有再來就是AI的部分喔那AI是不是就是說在國際上AI都是一個高耗能的這樣子的一個產業喔"},{"start":12896.161,"end":12921.087,"text":"那未來在跨部會的檢討裡面會不會要求AI的資料中心以及AI的整個就是運算的部分必須要使用綠電那如果AI的運算中心要使用綠電的話那到底對於我們綠電的需求會增加多少嗯"},{"start":12925.865,"end":12952.839,"text":"AI中心要不要綠電還是要看廠商所面對的客戶需求然後這個是還是要看廠商的需求那我們政府部門會不會要求就是AI資料中心以及運算他的運算的部分是不是應該要用綠電?這個就我了解目前不然他如果是高耗能的情況下"},{"start":12954.264,"end":12955.444,"text":"接下來我們請李博毅委員請做詢答"},{"start":12991.023,"end":12992.624,"text":"委員會主席劉靜清主委"},{"start":13008.397,"end":13034.503,"text":"過去我曾經在高雄市政府服務過那對於研考對於整個市政府的方向大腦其實我知道這是非常重要的職位那到現在國發會到過去我也看了主委的相關的這些過去的資歷過去為企業領航那現在要為台灣領航我覺得這是非常關鍵的"},{"start":13035.663,"end":13063.648,"text":"那賴總統當然行政院左院長當然用人跳脫框架不是只有人跳脫框架這個人在現在政府的運作的思考應該也要跳脫框架但是又不能跳太開整個領航的過程裡面跳脫框架對於台灣現在主要的產業的需求對於剛剛很多委員垂詢用電到底"},{"start":13065.566,"end":13087.451,"text":"主委的想法看法這幾天很熱鬧你的說法都上了媒體版面到今天的這些回應的過程越來越小心越來越小心的用語當然是好的但是跳脫框架的思考我覺得還是目前臺灣的產業包含電子產業包含半導體產業包含AI未來"},{"start":13088.331,"end":13111.199,"text":"都需要像主委這樣子來為臺灣的這些主要的產業的命脈來帶領幾個問題想要簡單的就叫主委包含黃仁勳現在仍在臺灣他來臺灣絕對不是來吃小吃絕對不是來玩樂他來臺灣一定有相關的想法跟製程想要找臺灣的半導體產業臺積電包括臺積電等等的做一些討論"},{"start":13115.72,"end":13127.588,"text":"那這一些我相信主委也會做相關的掌握之外對於最近的國際情勢包含美國的電動車跟特斯拉跟中國電動車的競爭之間未來台灣有這些關稅的問題未來這些車"},{"start":13133.732,"end":13154.343,"text":"可能進來台灣有可能會影響到台灣相關的產業等等的這些也請主委可以做一些評論跟分析讓我們未來的我們其他的部會有一些想法最重要我曾經在上個月我做了我們男子產業園區的"},{"start":13155.384,"end":13171.476,"text":"議員．"},{"start":13171.656,"end":13193.744,"text":"再多的電都不夠企業沒有節制的用電但是企業需要用電再怎麼想辦法我們也要把電生出來這是我在處理這個男子產業園區的用電之後的想法但是隨著過去的產業布局都半導體產業布局都在新竹那現在南台灣包含台南高雄嘉義"},{"start":13194.524,"end":13222.309,"text":"目前的整個台積電的布局也已經逐漸的形成所以有很多相關周邊的這些配置的交通建設在陳建銘院長之前都已經包含國發會都已經開完會的包含高雄的男子交流道引道捷運子線還有台鐵立體化等等的這些也都請主委一併的要對於產業發展之外的這些交通建設一併的做合理的布局來主委請你做一個簡單的回應就我剛剛幾個問題OK"},{"start":13223.649,"end":13249.38,"text":"好第一個電動車的部分其實可以看到美國現在的政策是保護國內的電動車產業那台灣現在也正在開始那我不知道現在因為我不是這個全責範圍但是我講國家的整個產業的整體考量還是要必須做一個總檢討的考量那這個是電車的部分那屬於電網的部分目前當然我是"},{"start":13253.189,"end":13267.174,"text":"對於民生用電跟供應用電看起來是可以有有一定的切割所以他的整個管理目前來講我沒有看到特別有很大的問題"},{"start":13268.274,"end":13293.65,"text":"那至於工業區的整體發展目前如果整個交通單位整體單位送上規劃有送上來的話我們在工件上面的重點我們都會陳建仁院長之前合併包含國發會合併的相關的建設也請主委一併的繼續來高雄看一下那也對於周邊的交通產業建設一併的做一些關心那我們同仁寺回報是幾乎都合併的好謝謝好"},{"start":13298.235,"end":13315.671,"text":"現在請舒巧惠委員做詢答舒巧惠委員舒巧惠委員不在現在請陳培宇委員做詢答好謝謝主席那有請主委謝謝國發會主委"},{"start":13326.292,"end":13343.19,"text":"主委辛苦了真的如同剛剛委員說的你願意跳入火坑但是我更要說有來自業界的聲音我相信大家會更樂於有看見像這樣子的主委怎麼說呢因為等一下跟主委討論的相信主委您在過去業界工作經驗當中一定有遇到類似的問題來下一頁"},{"start":13345.012,"end":13348.594,"text":"在國發會的業務報告裡面我們看到國發會說要積極優化投資策略審議還有投資決策的過程然後搭配總統新創地方創生的投資政見要把125億元往後帶到250億未來4年評估增列投資預算目標4年後達到1500億投資量能我們非常樂見這個願景但是我們要跟主委報告一個我們辦公室從過去一年我地補上任之後一直在追蹤的一個議題相信主委您過去的業界經驗"},{"start":13374.568,"end":13374.768,"text":"法規障礙法規障礙"},{"start":13396.067,"end":13417.054,"text":"被罰錢也好、被開罰、或者是被檢舉、同業之間的討論跟競爭甚至是公部門之間對於這些新創事業的不理解導致很多法規確實對於新創事業有很大的障礙尤其在地方創生議題從都市計畫、建管、消防、食品加工、觀光、導覽它都很有可能落入國發會所要輔導"},{"start":13418.254,"end":13419.636,"text":"主委您來自業界你過去在創業或者是在從事產業工作歷程當中你一定有經歷過所謂的法規障礙對不對"},{"start":13429.949,"end":13454.377,"text":"我是我是我們大部分其實都是會盡量閃避法規就是不要去碰它了因為修法都很困難嘛我們有時候會選擇不做或者是做一些比較不觸動法規的事情好但是您現在身為主委我想這個話我們就不要再說我們是不是就想辦法來協助更多地方創生的團隊我來跟主委分享我們遇到哪些問題來下一頁"},{"start":13456.658,"end":13484.813,"text":"我們從去年10月就一直拜託國發會當你們在花很多的經費跟補助給很多地方創生團隊的時候他們所面臨的法規障礙到底國發會了不了解國發會不能只發錢必須要協助這些新創事業進行跨部會法規障礙的溝通結果呢國發會給我們到今年1月為止給我們的資料告訴我們說經營地方小旅行相關事業就會被規定要成立合法的旅行社"},{"start":13485.914,"end":13514.439,"text":"老屋的部分有老屋的問題原住民傳統飲食有原住民傳統飲食跟食品安全衛生法規的問題主委當我們的年輕人帶著熱情帶著熱誠帶著愛故鄉的心回到故鄉做中小型地方創生的時候做地方創生創業的時候我們難道告訴他們就迴避法規嗎所以我相信主委是不是可以從今天開始我們一起來關心這些地方創生事業他們面臨的法規障礙"},{"start":13516.547,"end":13534.858,"text":"好的,我們願意去了解看看有沒有什麼可以改善的有很多很多主委我手上有非常非常多案例可是因為我時間有限可是我們通常都會希望不要只解決個案我們一定有機會透過法規的盤點通案來討論這些事情好不好"},{"start":13535.759,"end":13535.799,"text":"是的。"},{"start":13563.154,"end":13590.791,"text":"好 那我們辦公室最後因為我們辦公室也會積極協助這些地方法規遇到的困境跟障礙可是真的需要你們跨部會協助他們那更多更多詳細的問題跟到底這些問題有哪些面向需要國發會的力量我們之後會再找時間跟國發會積極討論那今天呢因為是主委您第一次業務報告我們就先跟您分享在地方創生也許是過去您比較不熟悉的中小型的、微型的、地方年輕人的是您過去的大型企業所沒有接觸過的對象"},{"start":13592.152,"end":13614.079,"text":"拜託主委您上任之後我們一起來關心這些願意回到地方的年輕人好嗎好的謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝我們現在請陳冠廷委員做發言陳冠廷委員在陳冠廷委員不在現在請羅明財委員做發言羅明財委員不在羅明財委員不在現在請張祺凱委員做詢答"},{"start":13638.737,"end":13638.838,"text":"主席"},{"start":13648.471,"end":13672.887,"text":"主委你第一遍來,先幫你加油,幫幫你打氣。因為你是AI專家,產業界風評不錯啦。我今天聽你的簡報,過水準。是值得啟齊的國外會主委。謝謝委員。不過,我要提醒,不要背那些背離事實、危言聳聽甚至邏輯不通的話,特別是政治語言的影響。"},{"start":13675.793,"end":13688.196,"text":"大家想像一個畫面現在13位有誰敢試探台積電的商業機密核心價值台積電是我們的護國神山啊怎麼會有立委說我們要去試探把台積電找來試探他的商業機密"},{"start":13703.311,"end":13729.628,"text":"試探他的核心的這個技術那有什麼問題?他一定被罷免嘛對不對?這個政黨要被唾棄嘛所以主委你以後有立委問你政治性的原因不要隨便點頭喔對啊!邱議員邱委員講到立法院之前刑事法第59條15他說這個是侵犯人權嗎?事實是什麼?"},{"start":13731.345,"end":13751.54,"text":"立法院之前刑事法第95條講的是什麼?出席人員有下列情形者你是可以拒絕證言的或者你根本就不要講話你可以不要表達意見有下面四項 看這個第一個 涉及到國家安全、國防跟外交之國家機密事項"},{"start":13752.659,"end":13777.531,"text":"第2個,若是辦聽證會．你來出席一列的聽證會調查的目的．跟所提出的結論．或者要對質．你可以拒絕證言．也可以不要表達意見第三個,依照《刑事訴訟法》規定．你可以拒絕的事項第4個放中了,你看涉及受到法律明定．保障之個人隱私或其他秘密事項"},{"start":13780.37,"end":13791.519,"text":"這四個不就是在保障個人跟企業嗎?台積電第一個不會被找來啊!第一個找來所有的企業跟個人都收到保障啊!這給邱委員講的95條59條之5的真相第二個我們看看59條之1什麼東西都要講給立委聽嗎?NO!"},{"start":13802.827,"end":13822.544,"text":"有7萬人選嗎?尤其是涉及外交跟國防或者其他法令應該遵守秘密的要開什麼?秘密會議耶!秘密會議任何人在這邊喔!包括立法院聽出來他如果洩密是要法辦的!聽證會一定要公開嗎?也NO喔!不是喔!"},{"start":13823.991,"end":13845.079,"text":"如果有以下的條件要開這個聽證會．他可以不公開用秘密的方式來做聽證．第一,如果牽涉到個人的隱私遭受到不當的侵害之餘．第二,個人的生命或身體或其他自由遭受到威脅．第三個重點,就是說台積電或任何企業邀請到我們的地方"},{"start":13846.701,"end":13860.752,"text":"我先強調平常立法院要辦要企業來幾乎是非常非常不可能的所以你牽涉到的是非常大的公眾這個利益台積電沒有犯法為什麼要找台積電來呢我們去統計了第4屆到第10屆所有辦的這個調查委員會"},{"start":13866.756,"end":13889.131,"text":"第4屆到第10每一屆你未繫尼才辦4次的調查委員會等於1年才一次很嚴格而且有這麼多的規定你看這個條文的第三條有牽扯到營業秘密遭受到不當侵害之餘你可以不要講話而且開秘密會議所以台積電的know-how怎麼會流出去呢?"},{"start":13893.168,"end":13911.223,"text":"好,剛剛邱委員委員又提到一個很嚴重的這個事情這個事情歐洲商務已經澄清了好幾次了嘛他引述了,現在已經傳的東西這個文章,這個文章也作者方英格印出來澄清啊他說他那個講過什麼台灣的國會改革是什麼荒謬他說這個荒謬的詞是誰講的?"},{"start":13915.342,"end":13938.221,"text":"林晉棟、立法院的好專員林智傑他特別澄清喔 這個不代表他的立場也不代表歐洲商會的立場 重點還不會過位他完全 他說我的文章 你們引述我的文章我的文章裡面寫得清清楚楚 沒有寫到會影響到跨國企業投資台灣的意願所以 主委你是很壯硬的 大家對你是有期許的"},{"start":13939.673,"end":13960.59,"text":"你來這邊當然會碰到一些政治的語言可是政治語言你不要隨便點頭我剛剛這樣一路解釋清楚沒有侵犯到人權沒有侵犯到企業而且你看歐洲商會澳洲我們這次這個修法很重要就跟美國學啊調查權跟聽證會不就是跟美國學跟歐洲重要的國家學啊包括帝國、法國、英國啊"},{"start":13962.147,"end":13983.16,"text":"澳洲的國家怎麼會反對呢?所以對於政治性的語言我們今天把它解釋清楚好 主委我們來談一下用電的問題你是AI的專家你為了理想要落實AI的產業化但是現在大家都問一個同樣的問題我們台灣的發電你看下一張台灣的發電在你積極要推動的這個AI"},{"start":13988.803,"end":13998.365,"text":"在市區的公車電動化、電動車的興起、在市的半導體、精密晶片的這個發展這都很耗電對不對?"},{"start":14000.308,"end":14028.102,"text":"這都非常耗電嘛,所以你現在的重責大任是什麼?要供應一個非常充裕而且便宜的這個電我知道早上已經很多人問過你核電的事情,我們看一下,簡單看一下三位經濟部長到童子賢跟你的上一任拱明星都提過,我們一直跳下來我今天只有問一個最重要的事情,我請教你連D7,七個主要的工業國他都講了,不再反對核能,我們再往下看"},{"start":14030.782,"end":14034.661,"text":"你說你不排斥嘛可是有三個原則啦當然你今天已經解釋很多個了"},{"start":14036.121,"end":14063.123,"text":"我最關心的是什麼AI又增加了三成以上的這個電力今天人經濟部的處長他也是很專業嘛對不對他都出來講了至少一年要增加3%嘛那我要問喔用這個很簡單的數學問題你要增加3%的這個用電你要講AI產業增加三成可是我們今年7月27可是三成醫藥機就停了明年的517又停了"},{"start":14064.343,"end":14064.583,"text":"三天一次會議"},{"start":14079.863,"end":14102.177,"text":"這個台電是有準備機組啦但是他現在的準備機組還是在以天然氣為主啦我就台電的說明以廢發電嘛對不對因為台電一定跳起來啊一定跳起來嘛所以不好意思因為今天我比較激動因為我要澄清很多的真相這對錢比跟對企業都很重要的我最後做一個最後的一個要求來"},{"start":14104.593,"end":14120.602,"text":"民進黨進步能夠打破八年這個魔咒代表他們要承擔更大的這個責任現在不能只有臺灣民眾黨像我在經濟委員會我不得提案我們要解決核電廠、核三廠能不能業力這個問題國民黨已經提案了可是更需要承擔的是誰執政黨啊包括你國發會的主委"},{"start":14122.677,"end":14148.413,"text":"你現在不是只有聽台電的講話或是說你數學的問題你用電量一直在增加對不對包括AI的產業要發展半導體你看台積電一直在新的擴廠嘛對不對像我家裡人他要來嘉義設廠我都很高興啊問你電到底夠不夠所以我做一個具體的一個建議請你要可能至少這三點要很注意的核電到底要不要用你們可以考慮可是相對的至少這三個目的要轉去改觀"},{"start":14149.033,"end":14173.998,"text":"第一個新北市跟台電那個干涉雛雲草這個爭議不要擺在那邊互相踢皮球我對中央政府有責任去給它處理得好一點第二個合同如果嚴厲就是你剛才講的有碰到法規問題要五年嘛可是不能夠等停電跳電大停電的時候還說不會有啊你要把它準備好嘛所以這個法定到底有沒有可能解得開你像美國的例子美國加州啊"},{"start":14174.895,"end":14192.626,"text":"他就突然發現電池不夠了啊他本來核電廠也是這樣沿的對不對他就同時一邊檢查他是安全一邊就沿用啊德國在碰到烏合戰爭的時候也是這樣子啊他本來要停了緊急修法經過安全之後又用了一段時間嘛這個有潛力可行啊美國加州的歷史"},{"start":14193.882,"end":14193.902,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":14215.402,"end":14241.922,"text":"現在請王美惠委員做詢答王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現在請徐欣盈委員做詢答徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢答謝謝主席那我們是不是有請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":14253.197,"end":14266.374,"text":"主委,我想跟您請教一下,因為現在我們看到很多的企業,包括台積電,包括聯電,包括鴻海,他們都宣誓要加入RE100"},{"start":14267.825,"end":14292.101,"text":"所以加入R100的台灣企業可以說是越來越多那甚至有些企業他還自我要求包括台積電他認為說他本來預計是2050年達到R100那還說要提早10年那如果以這樣來說的話為什麼這些企業都要積極的要進入R100的一個自我要求呢?"},{"start":14294.438,"end":14318.852,"text":"我的前公司也是R100的企業主要都是基於企業社會責任那第二個大家認為對地球暖化必須扮演一部分重要的責任所以大家就加入就大家會加入那請教主委這個R100它包括的其中一個叫做說承諾100%的使用再生能源那這個再生能源到底包括不包括核電"},{"start":14320.453,"end":14335.955,"text":"再生能源不包括核電那也就是說這一些企業他們要未來他們使用核電就是不使用核電他們會100%的使用再生能源那這再生能源不包括核電也不包括火力發電"},{"start":14336.596,"end":14362.244,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":14362.604,"end":14381.534,"text":"那就是說這樣就好多企業啊、台積電啊﹖未來他要用的電他也要達到RE100﹖他就是100分之100﹖我就是要太陽能或是風電﹖或者是有其他更新更環保的能源出來﹖是的﹖沒有錯吧﹖好這是第一個﹖第二個就是說﹖好那你現在核電"},{"start":14382.962,"end":14396.971,"text":"在歐盟已經陸續把核電認為說他是屬於綠電的一種綠電沒有還沒有他是要得到最終儲存的才可以提出來就是說前提就是要最終儲存"},{"start":14398.152,"end":14399.412,"text":"這個我不是那麼理解可能要再問"},{"start":14429.916,"end":14441.924,"text":"我們沒有辦法處理因為這個最終儲存也不可以到國外他必須在國內目前我們只能做乾式儲存我們目前都是乾式儲存我們沒有一個地方是最終儲存場所以在這個前提之下"},{"start":14447.088,"end":14468.681,"text":"我們的核電他也沒有進入到歐盟他認為說已經有最終儲存的一個核電有辦法最終這個東西可以處理得更好所以你看起來就是說台灣目前的核電除非又有更先進的核融合的技術的產生不然以現在這樣的核電然後沒有辦法最終儲存的話"},{"start":14469.201,"end":14487.09,"text":"基本上又不符合歐盟定義的綠電也不屬於RE100要求企業要100%的再生能源的電力沒有錯吧是的那以這樣的前提之下我覺得我們台灣的整個用電的發展目前走的這條路就是正確的"},{"start":14489.549,"end":14511.12,"text":"注意,我是覺得我們要對大家的腳步,我們要有信心。我們不能說大家,就是說很多事業的發展,你說風電、綠電的發展,也許在開發的過程中,有些生意人他已經用了一些比較不乾淨的手段,然後他必須要被繩之以法,這個我們都主張這個要嚴辦。"},{"start":14513.571,"end":14522.916,"text":"他用不乾淨的手段去取得到發電的資格,這要他頒,這要他發電資格,要他拿回去,這我們都支持啊。但是你不能因為這幾個老鼠屎,你知道我們整個醫療都沒得吃嗎?"},{"start":14532.38,"end":14559.516,"text":"我都不吃肉,他有吃肉可能就有老鼠屎,怎麼可以變這樣呢?所以我是覺得說我們的產業、我們的用電的一個政策,我們還是要把它抓緊方向,然後不能夠這樣一直調進、一直調進,然後又找不到最好的方法,這樣反而是讓我們好不容易跨出了這一步,而且已經走到了整個再生能源的比例一直在翻高的時候,我們現在如果說這樣起來是不對的,我覺得不能這樣,好不好?"},{"start":14563.658,"end":14584.032,"text":"謝謝第二個就是我想要跟主委聊一下因為我們國發會畢竟是掌管我們國家的整個 那就不會輸 整台車你算發很多入的啦 整個風雄主委你要去聽那我一直覺得台灣有一個單位特別保守 就是食藥署"},{"start":14585.886,"end":14614.775,"text":"食藥署的保守就是說事實上我們看到有好多齁所謂我們先不要說藥品還是保健食品這些都讓他們未來去定義可是我們看到台灣人很多會到國外去買藥品回來包括說現在有很多人說因為不要說療效我們就說像退黑激素像現在有很有名的叫做NNN這個叫做什麼燕瘤這名字我不會唸NNN療法喔好多人去國外買"},{"start":14616.537,"end":14626.448,"text":"去國外然後去買回來為什麼呢?就是我們食藥署不允許在國內銷售那又因為不允許在國內銷售就創造了很多騙局"},{"start":14628.609,"end":14655.66,"text":"你只要主委你可以去網路你去google一下你打這三個字NNN他就會出現的叫做NNN騙局這個騙局是怎樣?因為台灣沒辦法合法銷售所以就有很多不肖的廠商他就在裡面的身份有沒有也沒有他就在那個標籤在你logo這樣打起來就很多人趨之若鶩因為這個東西現在要去國外買回來然後如果水貨回來再轉手賣都好貴"},{"start":14657.769,"end":14683.508,"text":"就好多人會趨之若鶩說有這種可以買的比較便宜我去買,結果後來發現說它的療效又沒有符合應該要有的標準就變成說我們的食藥署把很多東西聚資一些比較先進的一些科學的一些技術我們都把它聚資千里之外都不讓它進來然後後來就會變成說有一些不孝的廠商"},{"start":14684.656,"end":14684.676,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":14717.385,"end":14741.791,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請賴會員、賴會員、賴會員、賴會員、委員不在現場好,報告委員會我們發言的登記範圍的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢、詢答結束我們由委員林黛樺委員、陳冠廷委員所提的書面執行列入記錄刊登公報那書面執行以及未及答覆的部分請相關單位一周之內"},{"start":14742.611,"end":14765.487,"text":"以書面答覆並複製本會本日所列的議程處理完畢我們要謝謝劉朱偉以及列席的官員媒體朋友以及各位同仁大家辛苦了我相信經過早上一整個早上劉朱偉應該會很快適應好我們現在謝謝一次主任委員謝謝散會"},{"start":14792.291,"end":14792.652,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":14821.661,"end":14821.921,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14844.833,"end":14845.653,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":14873.66,"end":14874.321,"text":"多謝您的收看。"}]}},{"id":"15968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15968","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d1dc129ce818bd3280f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be451b4dda9b13b1e705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「高級中等教育修法暨108課綱實施檢討」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-05-30T08:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:29:00+08:00","duration":14294,"影片長度":"03:58:14","委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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我們感謝各位所有的學者專家還有我們同學今天來歷領我們高級中等教育修法暨108課綱實施的檢討的公聽會那我先把我們這一次開會的一個前言稍微跟大家敘述一下我想這個高級中學教育的完全的這個宗旨我們就是要連接這個九年國民教育來陶冶這個青年的身心發展潛能所以呢這些都是我們高級中等教育的第一條所明定的"},{"start":1889.999,"end":1898.324,"text":"高級中等教育其中高中職全面免納學費和有一定條件的免學費因為這些事情涉及到家長和學生的經濟負擔和所謂的社會公平是否有全面減免的空間我們必須要蒐集民意來作為修法的參考當然我們在這個地方的中等教育法第43條也規定"},{"start":1913.132,"end":1916.935,"text":"中央主管機關應該訂立高級中等學校的課程綱要,還有它實施的有關的規定來作為我們學校規劃還有實施課程的一個依據然後學校的規劃的課程並必須要結合社會的資源來做充實教學的活動"},{"start":1930.186,"end":1931.808,"text":"整合9年一貫課綱及高中課綱提出了12年國教課綱原定是從107年度逐年的實施後來修改為108期逐年實施"},{"start":1946.826,"end":1948.829,"text":"在實施以後,不管是從學生面、教師面、學者、還有社會各界都湧現了很多爭議跟檢討的聲浪,還有包括學習歷程檔案,目前為止很多人說它是軍備競賽。"},{"start":1961.966,"end":1962.066,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1983.203,"end":1987.725,"text":"公聽會聽各界意見收集廣泛資料重整歸納各界建議特別召開公聽會提到我們所討論的提綱包括關切的教育學費政策檢討學習歷程檔案如何調整才有辦法符合"},{"start":2008.012,"end":2008.212,"text":"108課綱主席"},{"start":2026.537,"end":2026.717,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2049.451,"end":2050.612,"text":"第一位是國教行動聯盟的陳國作副理事長"},{"start":2078.591,"end":2099.199,"text":"家藝大學應用歷史系的吳坤才系主任還有我們北一女的簡麗賢老師還有我們北一女的歐桂芝老師還有我們全國教育產業總工會的高中部的林建增主任"},{"start":2103.151,"end":2126.579,"text":"第7個是我們國家教育研究院課程級教學研究中心的洪永善研究員還有清華大學原子科學院的林軒如同學高雄師範大學教育學系的鍾未啟副教授還有全國教師工會總聯合會的政策部的彭章梅副主任"},{"start":2128.785,"end":2153.125,"text":"吳章梅,我要念三次,吳章梅老師,吳章梅老師,吳章梅老師好,第11個是我們臺北市立陽明高級中學的鄭宇傑同學還有嘉義市紅人高級中等學校的呂佩珍同學13位是詠春高中的林春黃校長"},{"start":2155.252,"end":2158.305,"text":"還有中華語文教育促進協會的段新儀秘書長"},{"start":2161.251,"end":2188.206,"text":"總共14位那當然我們也非常的歡迎還有我們在場第15位不好意思這個也要念三遍了全國高級中等學校教育產業工會的高孟林理事長高理事長謝謝然後我們要同樣的也來介紹我們今天我們的教育部今天與會的就是大家會聆聽你們的意見然後做成一個中者然後會提出一些建議我們首先歡迎我們教育部的政務次長張亮萬堅次長"},{"start":2190.762,"end":2191.542,"text":"國際教育研究院副院長嚴慶祥"},{"start":2210.213,"end":2212.154,"text":"國立台灣大學政治學系 李瑞玲"},{"start":2231.417,"end":2254.874,"text":"那你真的要看看他們這個做的這個有關於課綱的一個整合的報告是相當的優秀 非常精彩的那當然還有很多的這個北一女的少友 行銀輝謝謝我們這些都是我們的少友還有徐鶴洋大使謝謝 都是非常關切我們這次我們的課綱的還有湯慧珍就是北一女的少友 劉美珍謝謝 還有董冰冰"},{"start":2258.843,"end":2259.763,"text":"每位來的學者專家發言時間是7分鐘第6分鐘提醒"},{"start":2283.411,"end":2283.591,"text":"公聽會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":2301.149,"end":2314.437,"text":"如果在10點鐘登記的話呢﹖我們就會進行的穿插﹖就是兩位學者﹖然後穿插一位立委﹖來做這樣的處理﹖並且以在場的委員的登記順序為主﹖如果在10點之後才來登記的委員﹖我們就等所有學者專家發表完畢之後﹖再請他們來做發言﹖我覺得這樣是符合一個公平的一個原則"},{"start":2322.301,"end":2349.035,"text":"現在請教育部的張亮政次來做現行的規定執行的狀況還有相關的問題來提出說明我們的時間是12分鐘謝謝謝謝主席我們各位委員我們各位學者專家教育先進各位女士先生大家好首先感謝各界對高級中等教育政策以及108課綱的關心今天大院教育及文化委員會召開高級中等教育"},{"start":2349.875,"end":2377.378,"text":"修法以及108課綱實施檢討的公聽會本部應邀列席並得聆聽各位委員各位先進的意見自感榮幸本部依序就高級中等教育學費政策以及108課綱實施的現況以及我們本次公聽會討論的提綱因為時間的關係我們做簡要的報告敬請各界先進予以指證跟支持首先"},{"start":2377.938,"end":2396.556,"text":"我們針對高級中等教育學費政策以及108課綱實施的現況來跟大家報告有關學費政策方面的實施現況為了落實教育平權 減輕學生家庭經濟負擔本部自112學年度第二學期"},{"start":2398.229,"end":2421.972,"text":"擴大推動全面落實高中職免學費方案原先排除的這個排付的條款就是100家庭總額收入超過148萬的學生我們把他納入學費補助對象那麼第二點至於未具有中華民國國籍重讀及辦理單獨招生之私立高級中等學校所招收之學生"},{"start":2422.873,"end":2423.033,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2441.135,"end":2443.176,"text":"國民基本教育推動免失入學為組織政策目標﹚"},{"start":2465.866,"end":2487.718,"text":"有關高級中等學校108課綱的實施現況首先有三點向大家報告第一在穩定推動各項教育措施方面其中在精進課程與教學上本部建置了12年國教課綱高級中等學校課程與教學專業支持系統持續強化素養導向教學的專業實踐與支持並培養務實致用專業人才"},{"start":2493.642,"end":2503.214,"text":"提高師資緣額及增能上本部自112學年度起合增國立高級東等學校1356名教師緣額並補助教師終點費與學校編制外行政能力"},{"start":2510.023,"end":2539.019,"text":"人力及代理教師協助學校滿足課程教學及行政人力的需求此外本部也落實教師專業社群運作建立教育專業發展支持系統並補助教學設施與設備充實改善學校的學習環境第二點108課綱實施之後教學現場之改變來跟大家做一個報告在學生學習方面"},{"start":2540.182,"end":2555.835,"text":"透過由教師適度引導並以更符合生活情境之課程安排讓學生學會如何學習探究解決問題的策略提升學習興趣及動機以及更多合作學習並能自主學習規劃學習內容"},{"start":2557.977,"end":2583.655,"text":"在教師的教學方面﹐有更多的老師開始重視個別差異﹐引導學生適性學習﹐重視探究實作之歷程及多元評量﹐並組成專業社群進行課程共備﹐專業對話以及跨領域協同教學教學模式也漸進調整為素養導向之課程設計﹐更重視學生的核心素養"},{"start":2585.751,"end":2605.382,"text":"實施3年後,參照每3年舉辦一次的國際學生能力評量 。台灣在PISA2022年的測驗中,其中包括數學、閱讀與科學的素養上,表現均優於經濟合作暨發展組織 的平均。PISA評量化數位化,"},{"start":2611.514,"end":2635.897,"text":"創下了2015年以來最佳的表現這一次正式實測的對象就是台灣實施108課綱的國三及高一年滿15歲的學生這個結果也初步肯定了108課綱培養孩子的核心素養、跨領域能力、數位學習、自主學習以及具備解決問題的多元智能"},{"start":2639.397,"end":2648.87,"text":"本次公聽會所擬聚的提綱我們做一個簡要的說明其中第一個針對高級中等教育學費政策的再檢視那麼有兩點的回應"},{"start":2652.285,"end":2677.512,"text":"針對未具有中華民國國籍學生、重讀學生的部分考量國家經濟財政狀況、教育資源有效利用與分配本部建議維持限期規定不納入學費補助範圍第二針對辦理單獨招生之勢力高級中等學校所招收之學生部分後續將持續廣納各界意見凝聚社會共識以建立完備且可行之機制"},{"start":2680.49,"end":2706.486,"text":"學習歷程檔案及入學及大學選才制度的配合方面學習歷程檔案是學生於高中階段三年的學習紀錄反映出每位高中生不同且獨特的學習軌跡及多元能力並經由任課老師認證提高學習歷程檔案的可信度最近在大學招生專業化發展"},{"start":2707.887,"end":2734.593,"text":"有關學習歷程檔案審議的計畫成果報告中﹐透過調查﹐已有高達58%的家長﹐認同學習歷程檔案制度﹐可以培養孩子的素養能力那麼第二點回應﹐大學端方面呢﹐他們審查也強調三重二部的原則﹐一級重視基本素養所展現的核心能力﹐重視校內的學習活動﹐重視資料真實性與﹐及學生自主準備﹐"},{"start":2736.069,"end":2762.21,"text":"不是學系所列的所有項次都要具備大學重視多面向的參採以及不適宜量取勝重視學習過程的反思且審查重心系以校內學習活動為主那麼第三個回應是為了協助學生掌握製作學習歷程檔案的要領精進教師適性輔導學生完成學習歷程檔案的能力本部也提供了多元化數位課程資源"},{"start":2764.62,"end":2785.107,"text":"與作非作學黨課程學習成果呈現建議的手冊﹚濟高課程學習成果呈現建議的手冊﹚透過各種行政主管會議﹚研習學生分享會﹚座談會﹚課程諮詢教師管道﹚持續深化及推動學生學習歷程檔案制度的精進"},{"start":2786.167,"end":2787.048,"text":"108課綱與數學與自然等基本學科的課程規劃"},{"start":2794.175,"end":2811.889,"text":"那麼經過檢視本部有兩點的回應第一108課綱數學領域不定必修學分數其實與99課綱同為16學分那麼108課綱自然科學領域的總學分數不定必修及加深加廣選修與99課綱也同為是4學分兩者相較於99課綱皆為減少這個總學分數"},{"start":2819.274,"end":2826.26,"text":"108課綱讓學生在數理學科的素養及思辨、邏輯表達等多項能力上"},{"start":2827.513,"end":2848.127,"text":"具有更多彈性、豐富多元的學習方法與思考,透過學習探究與實作課程,強化跨域實作智能,並透過加深加廣選修、多元選修、校定課程及彈性學習時間的課程安排,進行跨領域的深度學習增廣及補強。"},{"start":2849.452,"end":2870.125,"text":"第4個討論提綱所列﹐協助學校多元選修﹐開課及豐富選課彈性﹐108課綱在減少必修﹐增加選修課程學分數﹐細微提供學生更多元適性探討的機會﹐本部也會持續透過課程配套﹐"},{"start":2870.845,"end":2898.61,"text":"支持機制 協助學校依照學生興趣 性向 能力與需求開設豐富多元的選修課程第五有關108課綱強調素養與多元與學科核心價值推廣閱讀之競合閱讀其實在108課綱中是幫助學生學習學科核心概念的工具終止在幫助學生豐富個人的知識體系以解決學習問題"},{"start":2900.05,"end":2918.659,"text":"學科核心概念與閱讀教學是相輔相成的關係孩子未來在面對全新且複雜問題的挑戰時除了能夠掌握學科的核心價值外更要能進行跨領域的思考不斷學習新知並與他人合作成為一個終身學習者"},{"start":2921.76,"end":2944.199,"text":"將持續穩健推動高級中等學校學費補助政策以及落實108課綱來減輕學生家庭經濟負擔並培養學生多能具有終身學習的能力也會持續廣納社會各界的意見適時調整高級中等教育政策提升我國教育的品質那麼以上簡要報告敬請各界會議指導謝謝各位"},{"start":2945.933,"end":2946.614,"text":"第二位是陳國作副理事長請準備"},{"start":2981.314,"end":3002.089,"text":"各位好 我是台灣教黨教育聯盟的常務理事陳明恩麻煩聽說有錄音第一段請把它抹去第一句話請把它抹去我有點後悔是第一個簽到的人好 各位好 以下就大會所提出來的幾個問題我這邊分別論述就是我們的看法第一點就是有關於學習歷程檔案"},{"start":3004.278,"end":3027.521,"text":"學習議審檔案是由備審資料演變而來的,我想大家都知道了。那它相較於備審資料有哪些優點呢?第一個,備審資料其實是在高三的時候是要在很短時間之內去整理出來的,可是學習議審檔案可以讓學生分時在高中三年陸陸續續的在每學期,比如說一學期可能有七八件的作業或報告,"},{"start":3028.502,"end":3044.218,"text":"他只要把自己最好的三篇代表作 最多就三篇代表作提供出來最多那三年來累積下來他就有三年就18件的課程學習成果或者是有30件的那個多元表現"},{"start":3045.759,"end":3059.137,"text":"從這裡挑選出他比較適合比較喜歡的提交到他屬意的大學去所以對學生來講他其實不用額外的準備不像備審資料是要額外準備就是高中三年的時候額外準備的"},{"start":3060.054,"end":3083.786,"text":"所以他對學生來講其實是我們認為壓力應該是比較輕的那如果說有人會覺得壓力比較大我們想能不能進一步的論述到底壓力大的來源是來自哪裡我想這要講清楚否則只有講壓力大其實是很難解答那個問題的第二點就是我們認為一個人成長很重要的不是在結果過程也很重要"},{"start":3086.298,"end":3114.129,"text":"學習歷程檔案讓每個孩子有機會在這三年裡面逐學期逐年的看到自己有哪些成長看到自己相較於前面有哪些地方有改變這個成長或者是改變其實對學生來講都非常有意義有價值如果我們只把學習歷程檔案的重點放在他的結果我提交出一份結果用在升學我們忽略了這個過程中學生對於自己成長的這種檢視那我覺得這很可惜"},{"start":3115.606,"end":3140.501,"text":"所以我們會覺得說學習議程檔案其實是對學生來講是比較好的一種個人認識自己的一種工具第三個就是學習議程檔案其實目前有一個比較大的問題可能就是很多學生他可能沒有意識到這件事情的重要性所以可能會在學期結束的時候是被老師催促的去提交他的成果的"},{"start":3141.768,"end":3169.491,"text":"我們會希望說比照碩士碩士入學的時候都會有一門課就是教你怎麼寫論文同樣的概念學生如果要準備學習歷程檔案是不是在入學的時候學校應該要針對學生能夠讓他知道學習歷程檔案對他的這個過程準備的意義以及後面他可能會有這個結果可以帶來的效益然後讓學生能夠把這個事情當作自己的重要的一件事情"},{"start":3170.976,"end":3199.335,"text":"當然我們會希望說在學校裡面如果是教務處或者是輔導室來辦這樣的一個說明可能會有效果上的差別那可能就是要稍微注意一下另外這樣子的說明也不能侷限在學生身上我們認為對於家長也需要了解這些事情只有家長能夠真的了解學習一程檔案它的過程的意義以及它的結果的效益那家長才能夠真正的支持這件事情"},{"start":3202.277,"end":3219.928,"text":"學習歷程檔案是學生三年所累積的成果,這是學生屬於他個人的數位資產我們會建議,事實上也曾經在不同的教育部會議裡面提出來過能不能讓這樣子的資料,是能夠讓學生隨時上去檢視"},{"start":3221.689,"end":3242.496,"text":"隨時能夠下載下來的不是只是說用在升學我就只能用在升學然後提交出去這樣子然後等於這件事情就跟我無沒有關係了我們希望這件事情是可以跟著學生一輩子的甚至我們也希望說這樣子的一個學習歷程的概念能夠往下延伸到國中從國中開始累積甚至往上再延伸到個人的終身學習"},{"start":3243.756,"end":3262.008,"text":"所以教育部或是我們國家的修法部是不是可以整理一個是不是可以去考慮建置一個屬於我們全國國民的的一個生涯終生的學習歷程的一個資料每個人隨時可以上去檢視自己看到自己的成長看到自己的累積看到自己的進步"},{"start":3266.633,"end":3266.773,"text":"學習歷程檔案"},{"start":3296.713,"end":3300.196,"text":"學生可以因為他適性的需求他加深加廣的學習這些總學分數事實上並沒有減少那這樣的設計有什麼好處第一個我們每個人可以學習得基本的學歷之外"},{"start":3318.331,"end":3339.431,"text":"另外對於某些科目他有特殊他有特別的興趣或者是需求的孩子可以進一步的適性去加深加廣的學習不必在所有的孩子都學一樣的東西可是以後用不到東西所以這樣的設計其實他有適性分流這樣子一個優點那他總學分數事實上是沒有減少的第二點在那時候"},{"start":3344.366,"end":3363.45,"text":"在那時候有提到第二個很重要的議題就是在場的大學的端其實也有因應的措施就是他們在大一新生入學的時候他們會舉辦辦理暑期的先修課程幫助學生能夠盡量的無縫接軌到大學的課程裡面去事實上這個已經在實施了"},{"start":3367.093,"end":3380.221,"text":"第三點也是如次長所說的我們PISA2022在108課綱實施之後的PISA2022事實上整個成果我們看到整個事實上是沒有退步的所以我會覺得說如果我們一直抨擊108課綱帶來的這個數理的能力的下降可是我們從客觀數據上來看其實並沒有這樣的一個現象我覺得如果提出這樣的論點我們應該進一步的去思考這個論述的"},{"start":3393.342,"end":3398.927,"text":"論述的這個理由：論述的這個道理：道理是在哪裡以上謝謝好我們非常謝謝我們的陳常務理事我再次把我們這次的發言順序裡面再做一個說明就是根據我們立法院這個公聽會的一個不成文的一個規定就是委員如果在10點以前到委員會來登記的話他就會在兩個學者專家完畢之後就穿插有兩個立法委員"},{"start":3422.085,"end":3422.725,"text":"國教行動聯盟陳國作副理事長"},{"start":3464.471,"end":3465.071,"text":"主席"},{"start":3494.631,"end":3518.648,"text":"我覺得最重要的是這個資料裡面的第7項裡面的第1、第2小項為什麼呢就是現在的教育包括很多教育理念都是強調所謂的價值中立但是實際上是獨尊自由主義這個是課綱的問題"},{"start":3521.496,"end":3542.03,"text":"但不是108課綱的問題在95戰綱的時候就已經出問題了然後呢在自由主義下面學生以自我為中心就很容易品德敗壞大家看說我們現在青少年的犯罪率一直升高校園的霸凌越來越嚴重這個都是獨尊自由主義的後遺症"},{"start":3542.93,"end":3567.396,"text":"其實現在年輕人不婚不生也跟這個有關當然今天我們不談這個主題 改天大家有興趣我們再談所以說我們一定要扭轉這個 要有公民就要有道德公民與道德是連在一起的 所以我們認為責任跟權利必須平衡 你社會才不會崩潰"},{"start":3568.604,"end":3596.302,"text":"品德教育、責任與義務的教育必須回到我們的課綱中間必須回到我們的課堂這是第一個我要強調的接下來我要講的是素養我們現在素養就變成說包括你看這次的會考這個會考考題真的是文章多到學生根本不可能看完"},{"start":3597.213,"end":3610.909,"text":"好 那如果他都不可能看完 請問他有時間思考嗎好 事實上素養 我問一個問題如果你學的知識不能活用 這還叫素養嗎"},{"start":3612.85,"end":3628.14,"text":"所以素養不是閱讀能力而是活用知識的能力要活用也不必常聞我們知道就是有兩個姓艾的艾迪生跟愛因斯坦他們都有閱讀障礙"},{"start":3630.024,"end":3645.458,"text":"為什麼?因為他們的思想太前衛了根本找不到字可以形容他們的概念所以他讀起來就很慢像這種天才在我們的制度裡面一定被犧牲掉為什麼?他題目覺得看不完嘛那個就是"},{"start":3651.92,"end":3667.032,"text":"所以我覺得不要用素養10個人有11個定義的含糊用詞我們應該直接改用跨域活用一詞清楚每個人的概念都一樣"},{"start":3667.932,"end":3692.91,"text":"不會搞混而且呢你這樣子才能夠說服大家推行你的教育政策好那接下來我要講那個第5項自然科必修時數當然我們的市長還有很多人都提到說我們披薩進步大家仔細去看很多國際上的報告包括美國自己出的報告因為疫情所以他們的學生的能力倒退30年"},{"start":3694.438,"end":3697.119,"text":"臺灣以科技立國,自然科學的弱化就會影響國力,就會威脅到臺灣的生存"},{"start":3709.758,"end":3735.234,"text":"高中的基礎不好,大學銜接不上,大學程度就會下降那我們前部長說,我們選修課有啊但是我們的學測,大家是以學測為選材的基準學測只考必修,不考選修所以選修嘛,要嘛老師不教,要嘛學生不讀所以是沒有用的"},{"start":3736.799,"end":3762.259,"text":"所以我們覺得除非你的學測可以納入選修否則你就必須增加自然科的時數非做不可那我們可以考慮說像數學分數A數B一樣我們的物理、化學、自然科也可以分A、B為什麼不行接下來我要講自主學習"},{"start":3765.119,"end":3772.834,"text":"自主學習對動機強烈的學生是很好的但是對絕大部分動機不明確的學生來講他是被遺棄的"},{"start":3774.693,"end":3802.44,"text":"我們一直常常有一個觀念學生要學有興趣的我覺得這觀念是有問題的每個學生都對玩電動有興趣那每個學生都去玩電動好了所以說我們應該扭轉我們的觀念不是學生選起有興趣的學而是讓學生對所學有興趣我覺得這基本邏輯一定要搞清楚如果沒有搞清楚這教育就一定是走偏了"},{"start":3805.431,"end":3823.687,"text":"因為私立高中可以幫學生規劃所以我們自主學習制度就造成所謂的施校菁英化、助長階級固化還有有資源的可以幫助沒有資源的學生所以造成資源差距的擴大"},{"start":3825.229,"end":3837.278,"text":"所以我覺得說應該讓學生可以選擇說我要選修課還是我自主學習自己決定而不是強硬的規定你一定要自主學習你要吃自主學習報告"},{"start":3838.444,"end":3842.367,"text":"事實勝過雄辯事實勝過理想高中的非學術性社團一個一個消失你說這是多元嗎這是往學術的一元發展嗎"},{"start":3867.233,"end":3869.095,"text":"謝謝副理事長接下來我們請郭育晴委員然後呢第4位的吳昆才主任請準備"},{"start":3896.163,"end":3910.808,"text":"謝謝克珍、昭瑋那我想今天其實我還是要就所謂的學習歷程檔案來跟大家說一說就是在我附近所聽到的一些地方媽媽他們的心聲還有一個孩子們他們碰到學習歷程檔案的時候"},{"start":3911.988,"end":3912.288,"text":"主席"},{"start":3928.597,"end":3956.493,"text":"這個孩子他們在製作學習歷程檔案的時候其實不是只是為了升學而是能夠在他們的學習歷程檔案當中去記錄他們整個在高中生活當中他們未來的一些方向能夠留下一些軌跡能夠讓他們詳實記錄下來那我想這個出發點我覺得是好的但是因為在我身邊有很多的因為包含我自己的孩子其實今年小六那很快的就要到國中了"},{"start":3956.974,"end":3957.154,"text":"學習歷程檔案"},{"start":3968.162,"end":3985.192,"text":"目前要碰到要升學的孩子跟他們的家庭來說他們會覺得在學習歷程檔案在每一個學期從高一上下學期到高三上下學期一直到最後變成淪為所謂的備審資料的20%這對他們來說會是一個蠻大的一個壓力那當然我們不是說學習歷程檔案必須要被否決或者是必須要聽到這個現場"},{"start":3997.335,"end":4022.054,"text":"我們看到的這些學生他們最重要的一些新生那我們也做過一些調查其實很多的學習歷程檔案就所謂的這個高中生來講他們其實在12年級高一高二他們還沒有很清楚的能夠了解自己的性向沒有辦法能夠寫出一份很好的學習歷程檔案的時候其實大部分都會集中在高三的時候才會開始做"},{"start":4023.275,"end":4024.616,"text":"中等教育修法暨108課綱實施檢討"},{"start":4039.682,"end":4066.1,"text":"我可能對另外一個學科另外一個部分我比較會有興趣等於我的學習歷程檔案為了要升學為了要考進我想要理想中的一個科系我是不是就得全部重做這個是來自學生他們所面臨到的一個問題喔那另外呢其實我覺得還有家長端的一個焦慮啦那我想這個教育部這個部分可能我們還要再更多的家長"},{"start":4067.295,"end":4067.375,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4094.071,"end":4117.661,"text":"我們就交給他們做因為其實面試的或者是最後我們來看那個學習歷程檔案決定這個20%升學的這個門檻的這些教授其實也分不清楚到底是這個孩子做的還是外面的做的所以這個是目前我覺得我聽到的一些問題我想要來這邊真的來跟大家來分享另外就是在於高職是不是也需要做學習歷程檔案呢"},{"start":4119.062,"end":4144.181,"text":"因為既然是已經是高職他們選擇了所謂的職效的部分其實他們就是希望我已經確定我將來走進社會或者是步入社會的時候我已經確定我的方向了我已經知道我在高職所學的這些技能其實就是將來我要進入社會最重要的一個技能如果我也要去做所謂的學習歷程檔案來講會不會有點話舌天竺了這個是我"},{"start":4148.288,"end":4148.588,"text":"學習歷程檔案"},{"start":4166.272,"end":4166.292,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4186.286,"end":4214.258,"text":"更輕鬆一點點來面對這個已經因為對於20%來講雖然我們的利益良善但對他們來講他們還是會覺得這個是對他們來講的一個升學的一個負擔那剛剛其實有就是我們的來賓有特別提到這個素養的問題那另外我也反映一下就是我聽到的是來自於現場第一線的老師跟我說他說連我自己都不知道我有沒有素養我怎麼教學生"},{"start":4215.698,"end":4231.9,"text":"這是我聽到的一些狀況所以根據所謂我們現在一直在強調小孩的素養那包含這次的會考也有很多的家長反應說我的孩子根本連讀都讀不完我真的不知道要怎麼樣去填答案那這個部分對於所謂的素養題"},{"start":4233.081,"end":4233.301,"text":"在這裡提供給大家 謝謝"},{"start":4263.493,"end":4266.534,"text":"主席好各位各位前輩大家好我先講一個故事我先講一個故事50年前"},{"start":4293.493,"end":4323.113,"text":"我讀國小的時候我一手拿著課本一手拿著類似養二多的東西在喝課本後面寫四個字寫兩個字做一個堂堂正正的中國人做一個活活潑潑的好學生50年前我讀的我們是中國人30年前有人跟我講說你不是中國人50年前我們都肯定我們叫中國人30年前有人說你不是中國人我就懷疑說欸真的喔我好像不是中國人"},{"start":4326.367,"end":4334.1,"text":"謝謝,沒有看過技教,我是教書匠那,30年前有人跟我講說我不是中國人"},{"start":4342.116,"end":4365.02,"text":"三十年前就有人懷疑說跟我講說我不是中國人我懷疑現在有人跟你講說我不是中國人是 我不是中國人同樣一個故事跟各位分享五十年前有人說我不是我爸爸生的我馬上跟他打架我當然是我爸爸生的三十年前再有人跟我講說我不是我爸爸生的我說好像是喔 好像是喔"},{"start":4365.905,"end":4379.914,"text":"今天有人跟我講說我不是我爸爸生的,我說是!我不是我爸爸生的今天我們台灣的第10教科書就面臨著這樣的一個問題我要回應一下那個張檢部長,素養這兩個字素養這兩個字,適性養財這四個字剛才委員講的,我太太跟我講說"},{"start":4389.025,"end":4416.131,"text":"不能回頭 一定有素養 一定有四清洋財但是我跟你講 他跟我講 在現場教學是不可能的是不可能21得2 22得4 23得6 跟素養有什麼關係跟素養有什麼關係 完全沒有關係今天台灣最大的問題是 禮盲 濫情 又偽善的教育體制我來自第一線 所以我講的是代表我自己內心所要講的話"},{"start":4418.995,"end":4423.6,"text":"我準備了齁這是一部歷史虛無的108年課綱跟教科書"},{"start":4426.041,"end":4453.248,"text":"兩個原因因為因為他違反了一個非常重要的原則歷史的原則第一個他去整體性現行的108年課我舉個例子國二的歷史教科書從商朝到水朝只有2400年只有1600個字平均一年不到一個字我請問你素養在哪裡歷史的素養在哪裡你跟我講歷史的素養在哪裡第二個事情"},{"start":4455.692,"end":4480.647,"text":"我跟各位講齁同心圓理論沒有錯但同心圓理論是微觀的啦各位同學們各位老師們各位前輩我們出生的時候我們是不是先瞭解地球瞭解宇宙瞭解國家再回過頭來瞭解你台灣這一塊所屬的地方宏觀的角度是我們從小就要立定的微觀的是你長大以後你慢慢去學微觀的東西"},{"start":4484.267,"end":4499.766,"text":"去整體化,否定台灣的主體性,乃是中華文明圈,當代人使用的農曆,台灣人喜歡的布袋西,歌仔西,台灣人信仰關公馬祖,哪一項不是中華文明的元素?"},{"start":4502.856,"end":4519.961,"text":"第三點 去人物化 各位委員 各位大學者歷史重視兩個 一個叫時間觀念 一個叫人物觀念你沒有人物就是一個沒有臉譜的歷史教科書 沒有生命力我舉個例子"},{"start":4523.343,"end":4535.207,"text":"從商朝到水朝的兩千四百年一千六百個字平均一年不到一個字我請問你這裡面的人物在哪裡臉譜在哪裡臺灣是也是一樣的"},{"start":4538.646,"end":4541.668,"text":"去脈絡化歷史最重視的就是時間"},{"start":4568.866,"end":4592.098,"text":"這是第一點第二點它是去中國化的歷史虛無主義什麼叫做歷史虛無主義把所有不依據客觀的歷史發展事實把它全部抹殺掉因為歷史最重視的是客觀的歷史發展叫做簡單講叫時事求是那我舉個例子齁我舉個例子齁"},{"start":4596.213,"end":4615.287,"text":"兩獎在教科書在考試卷上面所呈現出來的是完全稀無主義談到談到談到兩獎就是罪惡就是醜陋醜陋罪惡的背面你就是去唱喝日本跟荷蘭的知名主義叫做歷史虛無主義歷史虛無主義"},{"start":4617.745,"end":4618.485,"text":"台灣沒有嗎?台灣沒有嗎?"},{"start":4632.913,"end":4633.794,"text":"講完了 建議 我的建議 小弟我的建議"},{"start":4657.963,"end":4683.77,"text":"我建議就是馬上採行馬英九時期的課綱未調法：或者是108年的課綱跟課綱未調法：兩者並行由現在的教學團來負責採用 謝謝各位好 謝謝吳主任那接下來我是不是請林倩琦委員來 請你幫我來當個主席好不好接下來是我發言 謝謝"},{"start":4686.052,"end":4689.093,"text":"然後第6位的簡麗賢老師請準備謝謝主任主席還有各位在場的學者專家大家早安大家好我想今天舉辦這個公聽會做主要的目的我們當然就是聆聽在場特別是第一線的老師還有包括同學親身的一個感受那我當然是先了解"},{"start":4715.677,"end":4717.639,"text":"我今天除了是立法委員之外我更是以教學27年的大學教授來做這樣的一個發言"},{"start":4741.701,"end":4742.101,"text":"大學老師聽到的聲音是什麼呢?"},{"start":4771.028,"end":4779.112,"text":"我當然會特別提到我們現在呢教了20幾年來我們就開始罵高中老師為什麼把這些學生送到我們手上那高中老師就開始罵國中老師為什麼把這個孩子程度跟過去來說沒有那麼好所以我們就一路一路就這樣下去那這表示大家在第一線對於學生送到我們手上的時候的基礎的能力上的確跟每一年來我都常常在開玩笑我們都會懷念去年的學生"},{"start":4797.222,"end":4797.542,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":4822.981,"end":4823.001,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4838.953,"end":4839.013,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":4859.718,"end":4859.798,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4883.795,"end":4884.075,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":4902.697,"end":4902.837,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":4928.519,"end":4951.05,"text":"公學院的老師：理學院的老師：他們就會告訴你事實是什麼我們也常常在檢討我們這些老師是否沒有辦法趕上新的一個世代是否他們在對於首席在對網路分享訊息的時候他們有所謂的創意那他們的深化事實我們就要開始做不同的一個思維沒有錯他們有創意但是我必須要承認他們對於文字的深化對於文字的理解跟過去來說的確"},{"start":4953.211,"end":4975.429,"text":"已經有不太是那麼樣符合我們當認為要符合的一個水平這會是一個事實然後呢剛剛我們認為在很多的課程我只是舉一個歷史的課程他是個簡化沒有辦法做個脈絡性我想不是只有在歷史在很多的一些社會性的一個科學當中他是但是呢我也完全同意課綱只是一個基礎的架構最重要的是在這個基礎架構裡面"},{"start":4978.411,"end":4997.943,"text":"學生學到一些他必須要透過自主的學習能夠讓自己深化你不能所有的學習都完全仰賴學校因為學校只有那麼一點的時間那重點就是放在了當學生有沒有辦法自主學習的時候我們不能把他的自主學習當作是他變得優秀或是不優秀的一個唯一的部分因為學生畢竟在18歲之前對他來說大學是一個最重要的"},{"start":5002.406,"end":5026.389,"text":"他的學習的一個自主性說實在的如果你能夠透過很多的平台你能夠讓課程的這樣的有趣化教育部很努力民間社團也都在很努力可是事實很遺憾的我們學生在自主的這個層面他還是有非常大的被動的一個這樣的一個傾向所以這個部分如何能夠讓他激發他願意來去做這樣的一個部分我覺得那才是整個教育最大的"},{"start":5026.829,"end":5026.949,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5046.744,"end":5046.784,"text":"有辦法嗎?"},{"start":5073.084,"end":5079.828,"text":"在目前第一十老師哀聲連連在所有家長給予他們這麼多的壓力之下你讓這些15歲18歲的學生覺得這個時候素養對我來說是一個你們給我這樣的學生所應該含有未來可能的競爭力嗎我們做得到嗎然後不斷的告訴我們要自主的學習你們給我們強壓的這些壓力外在的這些東西我有辦法真的是自主的想要學習這麼有趣的學科嗎"},{"start":5099.86,"end":5100.02,"text":"謝謝課程委員"},{"start":5130.904,"end":5131.305,"text":"簡逸賢教授"},{"start":5142.925,"end":5170.438,"text":"主席、科委員以及各位來賓及媒體的朋友大家早安我是北一女中的物理老師簡立賢剛剛科委員提到一個問題課綱它是全面性的所以它也包含了一部分就是我們第一線的實施教學的老師所以我是從實務面的部分提供一些意見那麼"},{"start":5171.9,"end":5198.699,"text":"事實上來講我們接觸的高中的老師其實以自然科老師而言都會感受到我們108課綱的必修的時數確實是比99課綱跟之前的課綱來得少雖然剛剛我們次長也提到說總時數這個來講沒變但是以第一線的自然科老師而言事實上是"},{"start":5199.68,"end":5216.929,"text":"受到的這個必修時數的影響所以呢我這邊呢就是能夠建議還是能夠考量從這個自然科的時數裡面來調整所以呢能夠調整自然科學的必修課程的時數能夠從現在的108課綱的12節就12個學分能夠調整到16節這是我的一個重點齁"},{"start":5227.454,"end":5254.233,"text":"實際上來講現行的108課綱在自然科學的實數裡面就是只有12節它分配給四個科目物理、化學、生物及地球科學分下去之後其實在科學的一個基礎知識其實是淡化了也就是能夠教授的科目的內容其實是變得比過去來得少"},{"start":5255.113,"end":5273.704,"text":"這個呢也會影響到大考中心所謂的實務型的升學命題的範圍所以這個來講是環環相扣啦所以我們會建議如果能夠有調整的一個空間能夠將這個課綱必修時數自然課的必修時數從12節能夠調整到16節這是我們的第一個建議"},{"start":5282.742,"end":5301.754,"text":"第二部分來講,事實上科學的知識來講我們要給學生的部分事實上應該是他能夠面對未來的生活所以在課綱的領域內容裡面我們建議能夠與時俱進例如說以我們現在而言"},{"start":5305.797,"end":5305.937,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5330.225,"end":5349.028,"text":"第二 因為現在的科技不斷的進步 所以我們也了解量子科技 量子電腦 半導體 超導體等等的單元事實上也應該能夠再納入我們的必修課程的領域內容"},{"start":5350.049,"end":5350.249,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":5375.504,"end":5380.236,"text":"領域內容能夠與時俱進也能夠一些調整這個部分"},{"start":5382.153,"end":5410.925,"text":"我建議的是能夠通盤考量我們108課程必修的自然科學的其中有一部分是探究與實作我非常認同探究與實作這樣的一個課程是失但是畢竟台灣有不同的學校有都會型的學校有所謂的偏鄉地區的學校那我會建議的話我們如果能夠把"},{"start":5412.326,"end":5436.045,"text":"這個探究與實作的這個課程實施的更有效果更能夠務實那我覺得是需要去傾聽更多老師的意見當然我們也可以說不宜從台北來看整個台灣所以呢我也能夠提供我們一些偏鄉老師談到探究與實作的一些想法"},{"start":5436.605,"end":5449.631,"text":"希望這個部分也能夠讓他們的心聲讓我們在這個地方聽到關注一下探究室所實施的情況畢竟來講各校或各地區情況會不同再來的話就是"},{"start":5453.012,"end":5469.221,"text":"我們實務型的就是老師所感受到的其實就是教學與升學考試事實上這個在我們第一線老師感受最深刻所以呢因為必修的學分"},{"start":5469.901,"end":5487.442,"text":"他的領域內容會影響到大學入學考試中心在命題升學考試的這個題目那麼題目的命題內容當然就會關係到我們的課程學分的一些領域的內容"},{"start":5488.183,"end":5510.013,"text":"因此在不會所謂的超綱的情況下大考中心是臨淵呂伯所以這個部分也是跟我們的必修的時數還有必修的內容是環環相扣因此我建議必修的領域內容其實也是可以視情況來調整與時俱進這個來講是屬於更實務的部分"},{"start":5516.836,"end":5524.406,"text":"我們知道一個政策來講它其實是很全面但是政策部分又有所謂的執行的人所以"},{"start":5525.68,"end":5547.468,"text":"台語說吃到肉 吃臭就好 吃不到肉 人生就好所以我覺得也可以多收集一點意見或許我們在政策的實務面會實施的更有技巧剛剛所謂的素養其實由於我而言我覺得素養就是平常的生活中表現出來的所以這個來講基本上就是隨風潛入業"},{"start":5550.009,"end":5550.029,"text":"論誤繫無聲﹖"},{"start":5580.163,"end":5608.491,"text":"各位委員各位在座的來賓大家好我今天在這裡要發布所謂我個人對108課綱的看法事實上不是我個人我今天來這裡發表的所有的內容是我在學校我對於同事以及校外的同事還有學生還有我多年來在108課綱我每一年都做導師我所看到的這個現場的現象首先"},{"start":5612.671,"end":5612.731,"text":"主席"},{"start":5631.192,"end":5631.232,"text":"主席"},{"start":5652.836,"end":5652.856,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5671.164,"end":5700.211,"text":"在一進來就聽到學習歷程根本搞不清楚這是什麼東西就所有老師都說你們要開始我們各科我們準備什麼作業你們都可以拿來做學習歷程他們在完全搞不清楚的狀況之下就所有的壓力全部集中到身上來所以我其實看到高一的學生其實身心失衡的狀況是一年比一年多108之後是更多那學生高二的壓力是什麼好不容易度過了高一到了高二學生已經是學校社團的主力"},{"start":5700.891,"end":5726.044,"text":"大家都不知道學生現在的社團他們要承擔多大的壓力不管他是學術性社團不管他是表演性社團他任何社團他其實都有一個成果發表那所以他們其實都要投注非常多的心力所以高二的學生他是社團的主力所以永遠有學生家長跟學生產生極大的衝突就是他課業顧不了可是學生到底要顧社團還是要顧課業"},{"start":5727.762,"end":5727.962,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":5747.774,"end":5773.48,"text":"每個學生幾乎睡眠不足睡眠不足其實不是跟第一節課一定在早8有關係而是他在前一天晚上他就沒有辦法充分睡眠因為第二天有太多的事情要做然後他做不完做不完就只好熬夜所以很多的家長也有困擾說為什麼孩子上高中一直在熬夜可是你發現他熬夜的東西有的時候他不是他不是為功課他是為社團可是如果為功課就可以熬夜了嗎原來每課都有報告"},{"start":5774.788,"end":5776.37,"text":"自主學習與微課程大部分的學生是私校的學習"},{"start":5799.131,"end":5824.768,"text":"因為他東摸西摸他摸不出方向來除非他的家庭有資源家長可以提供一個很好的引導要不然大多數的學生摸到最後他是放棄了隨便交一個報告應付了事那所謂的微課程呢一個課程設計大概是六周那學生的確多元了多元多元他這裡碰一點那裡碰一點學一點可是他所有的東西都是心停點水沒有辦法深化我們要用這麼多正課的時間去讓他們去這樣大量的摸索"},{"start":5828.69,"end":5844.607,"text":"請問社團不是摸索嗎那再來講校定必修校定必修我們學測考的是不定必修而這個校定必修就每個學校根據自己特色定出一些必修課可是每個學校特色是什麼一般普通的升學高中它的特色是什麼就是要輔導升學嘛"},{"start":5846.209,"end":5846.229,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5861.531,"end":5887.023,"text":"我們學校跨科合作第一個階段其實就是整體失敗可是我們仍然做出一個非常漂亮的一個成果發表然後呢因為失敗了所以再進行下一輪的一個實驗所以我們現在又進行下一輪的實驗這個實驗其實我們所做的一個設計又變成跟微課程一樣因為在一個大帽子之下各科來你們安排你們自己的你們自己要上的課這個叫做跨科學習可是事實上我們有跨科嗎我們變成微課程每一科的微課程"},{"start":5889.924,"end":5890.184,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":5909.962,"end":5935.805,"text":"在接下來我們講到說在生學部分就國文跟英文來講分科的時候不考國文英文所以高三下學期的加深加廣課學生是沒有人在聽的他偶爾抬頭看看你老師準備得半死可是學生偶爾抬頭看看你你就一定要很感激有幾副關愛你的眼神可是他們要考他們分科不考所以沒有人讀所以說教學效益不強學生的一個學習動機也不強"},{"start":5937.606,"end":5938.827,"text":"〈高級中等教育修法暨108課綱實施檢討〉"},{"start":5957.674,"end":5977.463,"text":"文化 物理 生物 化學 地科 地球科學 通通都要探究與實作而且以學生為主體就是學生要產出所以每一科都要做期末的報告或是要做期末的成果發表可是學生到期末又有社團的成果發表所以你就是要逼死他們那除了這些探究與實作其他每一科學科可能都有報告"},{"start":5978.604,"end":5978.624,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6006.186,"end":6023.32,"text":"很抱歉我沒有能夠好好掌握時間我到最後只能說108課綱如果他的目的不是為了愚民他沒有理由不能停止因為是全面每一個學科都看到無可挽救的錯誤"},{"start":6024.71,"end":6050.883,"text":"所以說我們要怎麼停止教育部只要一紙行政命令就可以就像當年蔡英文總統停止了馬英九總統的課綱違條他只要一紙行政命令所以一紙行政命令可以停止108課綱我們先用舊的課綱先暫時進行然後再趕快設計新的課綱我們就能夠讓現在全部陷入災難的悲劇立刻停止謝謝各位"},{"start":6053.282,"end":6053.602,"text":"張雅玲委員"},{"start":6076.188,"end":6089.121,"text":"主席、各位長官、各位先進大家好今天我就代表全教產大概針對整個教育的亂象有四大亂象來做說明"},{"start":6093.484,"end":6117.374,"text":"首先第一個 高中級教師人力不足的問題 它已經產生了很嚴重的惡性循環108課綱是教育重大政策 但是改革到現在 教育部應該因時因地因新課綱施行後的情況 重新調整 談整教師餘額的需求進行滾動式調整 並非一成不變地用僵化的制度來管控"},{"start":6118.274,"end":6136.102,"text":"由於新課綱發展到現在理工科的教師嚴重短缺現在理工科老師都跑到科技業去了基層聘不到正式老師 聘不到代理老師那理工是國家的命脈國家找不到優秀人才來任教這是一個國安危機"},{"start":6137.937,"end":6162.227,"text":"請教育部要正視這個問題那當然因為這些政策造成各校無限的惡性循環由於師資結構的不足只能利用現有的編制內的人力超終點超超極致去滿足校內開課的需求因而衍生出教師過勞大家心不甘情不願的開課用輪替的制度來開課這種現況那因應新課綱學校老師開選修課"},{"start":6165.947,"end":6166.287,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6189.492,"end":6210.887,"text":"第一點部分108課綱實施的到現在來講 全校團認為需要調整是每個學科都需要核心價值跟理論基礎去除掉這些除了讓他們看得懂文章跟數據資料之外這是很神奇的一件事情當然以往課綱的知識108課綱的核心宗旨是以素養為導向但是素養需要有知識的基礎"},{"start":6212.438,"end":6228.989,"text":"拿掉太多學科的架構新課綱強調了素養教育是期望學生能學之用將施設應用在生活情境中培養足以面對未來挑戰的知識、能力、態度學生需要有系統的學科知識尤其針對弱勢的孩子"},{"start":6229.89,"end":6242.886,"text":"對於不喜歡讀書的孩子更可能是他們學到有系統學科知識的時光108課綱拿掉太多知識量的東西有些孩子不學未來他們再也沒有機會學了"},{"start":6244.777,"end":6270.926,"text":"我認為應該是唯有現有的系統架構光讓他們有系統的知識再讓他們學以致用將知識應用在生活情境中那其他部分跟舊課綱比較來學生認為學習困難在於多了本土語言資訊領域其他學科的學習經驗變少了若是孩子基本的學科知識都沒有新課綱核心素養自主行動怎麼可能會達成"},{"start":6273.268,"end":6290.209,"text":"原木求魚108課綱是以主題式教學為主當孩子連基本的學科知識系統都沒有時對於主題式教學根本是原木求魚他們的概念變得很薄弱對於中等程度以下的孩子解題的普遍"},{"start":6291.403,"end":6314.183,"text":"解題普遍有困難推廣閱讀是好事但閱讀不是考試的主角許多學生數學不錯卻因為閱讀題型造成挫折反而放棄了數學這對教育有何幫助再看部分素養題故意用繞口令的模式東拉西扯連老師都要反覆的思考兩三次才能掌握到題目的關鍵這是什麼素養"},{"start":6317.37,"end":6327.741,"text":"如果升學考數量題應該限制題數 降低總比例不要扼殺學生對學科基礎學習的樂趣"},{"start":6330.301,"end":6357.307,"text":"以上這個是針對第一個新教師人力不足二線循環那再來部分本土語言教育跟學習歷程其實造成了現場的亂象其實這是我們很不樂見的尤其教學內容教學品質校本特色素養教學何者為重我們很多老師真的都很困擾"},{"start":6358.927,"end":6383.458,"text":"學習歷程的建置﹚多元選修跑班的排課﹚教室的安排﹚讓行政教師無力招架﹚連連上演行政大逃亡學習歷程的評量﹚各大學應該建立好評量﹚跟尺規或量化的指標﹚讓家長師生有信心我們也在媒體上呼籲﹚包括之前學習歷程檔案遺失的情況﹚包括最近校務系統"},{"start":6384.741,"end":6409.771,"text":"因為駭客侵入導致整個系統瓦解掉了所有的各資﹑家長各資﹑學生各資﹑包括學生的資料全部一夕之間瓦解所以這一塊我們呼籲教育部應該正式甚至呼籲教育部應該是暫停學歷程檔案這一塊暫緩實施再來部分就是本土語言教育跟雙語教育超少上路尤其因為林家的本科教學說實在的是本末倒置"},{"start":6410.951,"end":6417.096,"text":"本末倒置雙乙教育到最後造成的就是師生雙書雙乙教育應該以專業師資培養為主並非從現有的現職教師去壓榨去強迫老師去進修"},{"start":6429.107,"end":6444.894,"text":"導致了後來結果就是消極的復原療失當然我們也在媒體上有提出一些論述包括高中的本土語言教育長輩聽不懂我們覺得這是鬧劇一場再來部分就是說在培養本土師資的時候"},{"start":6446.335,"end":6460.881,"text":"教育部應該開增流浪教師來鼓勵不足的部分有流浪教師來補助最後一點是我們最期待的就是說因為現在的整個制度導致學生在學校老師無法管"},{"start":6462.42,"end":6489.055,"text":"無法管罪遭的情況就是尤其到高三到高三 高三下幾乎學生不顧學習的課程呈現方位的狀態老師也沒有任何工具沒有任務來約束他們尤其到現在高三這種狀態真是進入混亂的狀態這一點還是期待教育部要正式最後一點就是提到的部分就是關於管教的部分管教的部分以目前來講現況"},{"start":6491.217,"end":6492.038,"text":"教育部提供校安檢測手冊"},{"start":6506.735,"end":6520.509,"text":"好 我們謝謝我們的林主任那接下來我們是張雅玲委員然後羅志強委員請準備本期在這邊宣布我們在第12位發言林軒如同學發言完畢之後我們就休息10分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":6522.918,"end":6550.504,"text":"主席還有我們教育部的同仁們然後還有我們各界的先進還有現場的一些同學們大家好那我是雅琳那其實我一直是蠻推廣這個母語教育的因為我認為語言是記錄文化和記憶的載體但11108課綱有實施及國家語言發展法通過之後我們111學年期所有的學生高一學生都開始必須要學習本土語言或是台灣手語等等課程"},{"start":6551.844,"end":6571.28,"text":"但是我也非常肯定啦,108課綱納入的本土語言進入了國高中的不定必修課不過我還是相信目前現行的高中本土語言教育政策確實有許多可以改善跟檢討的地方例如現在課綱裡面的編排跟設計還有許多改善空間"},{"start":6573.359,"end":6594.82,"text":"教育部應該積極的輔導各縣市﹐還有系統的去整理這些課程的計畫跟教材改善目前這些循環沒有系統性的教學素材在課程的內容上﹐也應該更貼近生活的情境因為語言就是一個生活溝通的工具如果脫離了生活﹐就失去了意義"},{"start":6595.561,"end":6611.63,"text":"所以我希望教育部跟國教院可以負起責任除了要讓本土語言的學習成效可以運用在日常生活之中更不要讓本土語言的學習淪為只是一個考試的科目那在接下來我想要探討的就是有關學習歷程檔案的議題"},{"start":6615.369,"end":6629.882,"text":"有學生提出學習歷程檔案過度與升學掛鉤,甚至只是為升學而做,無法幫助他做生涯探索也有學生不了解學習歷程檔案應該如何下手"},{"start":6634.426,"end":6661.698,"text":"甚至學習歷程檔案變成了一個軍備競賽有資源的人就得到資源可以去做更好的學習歷程檔案沒有資源的人就反而沒有辦法這造成了一個不公平的競賽甚至現在也在網購上面都可以看到幫你代謝所以我希望教育部可以正視家長學生老師的這個焦慮來傳遞正確的資訊尤其剛剛有老師提到大學端應該要建立一個清楚的量化指標讓大家知道我應該如何的去做準備"},{"start":6663.473,"end":6663.873,"text":"《高級中等教育修法》"},{"start":6679.795,"end":6680.055,"text":"教育部"},{"start":6704.386,"end":6729.307,"text":"108課綱因為現在我們在講108課綱其實已經上路了五年我認為這個時間也是一個非常好的時間來做一個期中檢討因為我非常清楚的知道在108課綱剛上路的時候其實是造成非常大的恐慌大家到底要怎麼做到現在一路上都還是所以我覺得我們現在應該要做一個期中的檢討針對於教師、家長、學生我們應該要做一些我們當時做了一些說明會我們當時做了這一些"},{"start":6730.308,"end":6731.409,"text":"高級中等教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":6751.863,"end":6771.248,"text":"在聯合國兒童權利公約有保障我們必須要讓兒孩子有機會表達自主意見更是要保障他們被請聽及意見獲得考量的權利那這一次呢我非常高興的我收到這一份報告就是這是學生自己做的一份報告他們針對於108課綱觀察的一個報告做了一個全台的一個網路調查"},{"start":6776.869,"end":6786.407,"text":"那我認為就像今天也有清華大學嘉義市紅人高中及陽明高中的同學我覺得我們是不是可以先給他們一個掌聲因為他們做出了這樣子的報告"},{"start":6788.956,"end":6810.795,"text":"提供我們大家有一個從學生的角度來看待這件事情的面向所以我也認為就是說今天我們教育部是不是也可以來做一個全台的報告來真實的讓學生的意見可以被傳遞出來不然這樣118課綱上路之後還是會造成一樣的問題所以呢"},{"start":6811.656,"end":6829.284,"text":"我今天基本上想要強調教育的形式是有很多的可能因為108課綱我也知道有很多實驗教育的孩子透過這個方式得到了離開體制的一些學習的方向學習的內容以及他們可以被呈現的方式但是我覺得我還是必須要正視"},{"start":6830.524,"end":6831.004,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員 我們接下來請羅志強委員"},{"start":6872.452,"end":6898.913,"text":"各位委員 各位專家學者大家好我們對不起下一代我們非常非常對不起下一代在今天來談到108課綱的問題之前我要跟大家報告一件我剛剛才在司法委員會質詢法務部的一個數字你可以看到我們青少年是處在什麼樣的地獄當中"},{"start":6901.448,"end":6925.722,"text":"我們這個過去8年就是民進黨執政這8年青少年的犯罪嫌疑人數每1萬人在2016年是61.6位到2023年去年是88.7位青少年嫌疑犯犯罪的狀況"},{"start":6927.365,"end":6941.773,"text":"嚴重惡化成長了1.44倍將近漲了50%這是指普遍性的犯罪 青少年的犯罪如果我們今天把它連結到現在最嚴重的詐欺的狀況的話12歲到17歲的詐欺嫌疑犯2016年是953人"},{"start":6954.873,"end":6981.163,"text":"2023年是2186人成長2.3倍如果以每萬人來看更從6.2位成長到18.6位成長3倍為什麼要從這邊來講教育是百年大業教育是一切的源頭執政者如果搞爛了教育"},{"start":6982.421,"end":6997.432,"text":"今天我們的下一代就沒有未來我們的國家也沒有未來我們正在為我們失敗的整個的教育美名為改革啦正在付出代價當中整個社會在付出代價最令人痛心的是我們的下一代正在付出代價"},{"start":7010.882,"end":7035.079,"text":"108課綱實施以來百病重生最為人詬病的其中之一學習歷程檔案我不客氣的講讓學生花費大量時間跟金錢投入準備但呈現的內容卻跟現實有很大的差異偏鄉學校開不出多元課程教不出漂亮的學習歷程"},{"start":7036.704,"end":7057.049,"text":"而其他射精地位比較高的家庭﹐可以委請專人來製作所以教育本來應該是讓階級流動﹐讓所謂的弱勢者﹐可以透過教育﹐透過努力改變未來人生但是我們的課綱設計﹐我們的教育體系的設計﹐卻變成一道高牆﹐一個鴻溝"},{"start":7064.591,"end":7087.685,"text":"阻礙今天射精地位弱勢者透過教育能夠實現光明理想 摧殘人生的機遇學習歷程跟升學綁在一起 很多大學教授都知道大學教授可沒有吃飽閒著 都非常忙碌有多少時間完成檢視這些準備的資料"},{"start":7090.171,"end":7119.053,"text":"有一些學校甚至他也不用學歷歷程檔案校方收到就好那學生辛苦準備的意義在哪裡事實上大家可以看到很多學者也開始對這個部分展開了很多的一些評價那除了我們學習歷程以外教改30年廣設大學文憑貶值然後很多腐爛升格然後讓技職教育崩壞"},{"start":7120.564,"end":7143.599,"text":"為了執行所謂教改 美好名詞的理念108課綱做了哪些事情一路減少必修學分 增加選修學分 美其名為多元但實際上讓學生基本本質的能力學能下降"},{"start":7144.83,"end":7167.764,"text":"所以造成學歷低落甚至未來長遠影響國家的人才庫高中古文篇目前從60篇減為15篇在座的各位我相信我們過去都是學習古文60篇的那個年代對我們語文能力國語文能力"},{"start":7168.902,"end":7186.061,"text":"的基本的能力這是扎根的基礎工作英文單字量從7000減為4500數學重要單位為積分刪除不教導致高中程度國中化 國中程度小學化物理化學生物地科必修剩下兩個學分為舊課綱的一半"},{"start":7189.933,"end":7208.703,"text":"這些已經開始傳出災情了啦已經傳出災情了不但在大學裡面產生所謂的學歷學能低落的災情長遠來講這也跟賴清德總統喊出要把台灣變成人工智慧之島的目標背道而馳但我們下一代的"},{"start":7213.039,"end":7236.992,"text":"這個教育下一代的培養下一代的機遇被掏空的時候請問賴清德總統你怎麼樣把台灣打造成人工智慧之島這是今天我們不得不發出沉重怒吼發出警訊來告訴大家我們再不正視這個已經在妨礙我們台灣生存存續發展的這個"},{"start":7238.64,"end":7245.084,"text":"錯誤的課綱在不面對這個問題的時候我們要付出的代價是更大更大更深更深更遠更遠的"},{"start":7246.82,"end":7273.906,"text":"我們可能走向一個不可逆的一個教育掏空的局面所以今天真的非常感謝我們關心108課綱關心教育的各個專家學者們大家齊聚在這裡是我知道你們在第一線已經看到這個非常讓大家已經不要講憂心啦那不是憂心而已啊已經讓大家覺得沉痛的一個景象我們不能不站出來"},{"start":7275.205,"end":7293.792,"text":"我們真的不能不站出來為了下一代為了台灣的未來我們必須站出來也請這個執政的當局執政的政府好好的正視今天課綱到底掏空了台灣什麼課綱阻斷了七年的未來我們要撥亂反正謝謝"},{"start":7296.843,"end":7305.017,"text":"好 我們謝謝羅志強委員接下來我們是請洪永善研究員那我們請林軒如同學準備之後呢 我們就休息10分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7309.252,"end":7336.939,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位教育夥伴大家好我是國家教育研究院 洪永善研究員是的成就一個孩子需要整個社會的力量所以在今天所要談108課綱的實施針對學習歷程檔案還有基本學科的學習與大學的選材銜接還有到底學科的核心價值三個檢討的重點我想從"},{"start":7338.519,"end":7355.617,"text":"本任國教院在從課綱的研究發展還有長期這幾年來密切跟學校合作傾聽師生的聲音那我從幾個角度來談首先的就是我們的共同信念"},{"start":7356.198,"end":7367.848,"text":"各位當我們對於課綱有不同的想法這代表著其實我們相信我們的孩子值得更好的教育那是什麼呢那也是在108課綱所要因應的問題那麼是什麼問題呢也就是想想看"},{"start":7375.174,"end":7390.42,"text":"為何聯合國提出的SDGs背後所傳遞的就是我們始終處在一個整個社會發展經濟發展還有自然生態環境它需要我們付出更多的探究更多的關懷"},{"start":7391.9,"end":7411.989,"text":"孩子他需要不是只有聽話、背誦的知識﹐而是需要更多的保有他的學習的動機﹐能夠自我探索﹐找到他的學習熱情的所在﹐要有利他關懷的精神﹐來解決他所處在的現在﹐或者是未來的問題﹐所以他是一個終身學習者"},{"start":7413.61,"end":7442.209,"text":"我相信這樣子的信念是大家所共同能夠信仰而且能夠接受的因此108課綱的規劃剛剛談到對於素養或許有不同的一個想法但是有三個重要的特色是它所標舉的第一個就是多元適性第二個是探究實作這兒的探究實作是在各個領域乃至於在校定的選修課程當中"},{"start":7443.71,"end":7444.391,"text":"學習歷程檔案"},{"start":7459.6,"end":7484.622,"text":"如果把它放在是升學的工具就誠如在我們學生所提出來的課綱觀察報告已經來到了多屆其實對於這個調查的結果始終發現如果我對準升學那麼我採取不同管道的例如繁星他覺得我不需要所以我不做再來因為我要分科所以我不需要我也不做"},{"start":7485.743,"end":7485.783,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":7504.565,"end":7509.589,"text":"也就是今天當教學不再只是知識的傳遞背誦而是能夠運用知識來進行探究來進行議題的思辨來進行實作的時候那在整個歷程學習過程當中就會有學習單就會有小論文或者就會有你的設計思考圖"},{"start":7526.904,"end":7544.156,"text":"這些的歷程其實就是在課程當中老師非常用心為學生所學習的準備那自然而然他就會有呢學習的歷程那這些歷程只要呢把它呢收集然後呢再經過最後的挑選最後呢經過呢反思就可以呢來作為學習歷程檔案因此如果我們能夠呢幫助呢"},{"start":7551.741,"end":7553.222,"text":"高級中等教育及文化委員會．"},{"start":7570.839,"end":7588.665,"text":"嚴同學作了國文學習歷程檔案,閱讀了于秋宇的《文化苦慮》,在其中的《夜航船》說道,他聯絡到文人一同的樂業中反思,樂其所樂,苦其所苦,就好像經歷一次次的文化苦慮。"},{"start":7589.945,"end":7590.226,"text":"文學之美"},{"start":7606.661,"end":7606.942,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":7624.025,"end":7624.386,"text":"文化委員會主席"},{"start":7640.009,"end":7640.169,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7661.115,"end":7661.135,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7677.199,"end":7687.968,"text":"課綱其實它很重要的就是必須要能夠讓學生他除了基礎的一個必修更重要的就是他能夠適性的選修在課綱裡頭也有談到我們的負責第11其實隨著知識的一個發展各個領域的學習的內容它是可以與時俱進的那麼剛才有談到以歷史為例"},{"start":7701.88,"end":7713.569,"text":"其實在國中八年級舉個例子非常重視的是一種歷史的探究也就是我們怎麼從史料例如在八年級當中他會給你A版B版的民國初年的報紙然後讓學生來分辨什麼是事實什麼是觀點這樣子的學習是非常重要的最後要來談的那就是對於"},{"start":7726.238,"end":7726.378,"text":"林軒如"},{"start":7755.103,"end":7773.763,"text":"各位師長 各位同學 還有與會的公民朋友們 大家好 我是林軒如目前就讀於國立清華大學的原子科學院學士班那長如封面所述 互相理解彼此的權利 責任和摯愛男性之處是聲音被聽見的下一步那首先 我想要從必修選修開始講起"},{"start":7777.298,"end":7803.503,"text":"第一個部分是我想要釐清既然必修身為所有高中生都應該要修習的範圍那我們最優先的考量以及討論基礎應該是全體同學的需求以及吸收的程度如果我把所有的學生粗分為自然以及社會兩組對於自然組學生而言自然必修和選修間的銜接當然是重要的但對於社會組的同學而言自然科必修它重要的意義應該在於科學的底蘊以及未來"},{"start":7804.463,"end":7829.749,"text":"將來出了社會﹐進了大學﹐也沒有完全保證他絕對不會碰到這些知識因此作為一種敲門磚﹐作為一種底蘊和基礎是重要的因此我們必須理解﹐不論是社會科必修﹐還是自然科必修﹐都不能只考量該科的學生﹐而是要考量既然他身為必修﹐那所有普通科學生﹐他們能夠吸收的程度﹐老師能教導的程度﹐都應該納入考量"},{"start":7830.589,"end":7830.689,"text":"關鍵核心"},{"start":7847.159,"end":7872.213,"text":"因為高教的分科越來越的細緻單單基礎科目舉普通化學為例教科書可能就動輒上千頁我們不可能在高中的時候就碰到所有的這些東西所以我們認真的細想高中到底要為高教銜接到什麼程度其實是這個問題的關鍵之一那怎麼樣的銜接是足夠的以及高中的時間就那三年也許就那八節課也許是七節課"},{"start":7873.334,"end":7893.851,"text":"每種知識當然有其重要的價值但時間就這麼多我們應該要給誰所以第一個我認為重要的事情是學科的知識內容那這個應該要回歸到所有主科的專業老師包含國中、高中、大學、資深、資選的各個老師我們需要理解的事情是各個"},{"start":7894.471,"end":7909.208,"text":"不同的教學階段他們可能會對彼此有所誤解講個笑話也是一個事實為什麼國中老師和高中老師是最互相信任的兩個群體即使他們毫不認識呢因為國中老師都會說高中就會教高中老師會說這個國中教過"},{"start":7913.012,"end":7939.97,"text":"這個算是個笑話可是卻也是學生確實遇到的情境但我們這時候能說都是老師沒教嗎其實也不盡然也許是因為人類的遺忘週期也許是每個學習表現的學生吸收程度不一但是我認為在未來的討論裡面我們必須要去納入理論上學習科學的一些限制以及我們可以參考學生前後側他們對於各科的吸收程度以及不同學習表現的學生他們比較適合怎麼樣子的一個內容來做銜接"},{"start":7943.233,"end":7958.405,"text":"那再來的話我們也可以問教學時數以及分量是否相合一我們剛剛討論了非常多到底要增要刪但我認為在這之前我們可能要去細細的檢討莫爾數到底是不是國中生需要知道的知識那我們要問"},{"start":7959.566,"end":7973.892,"text":"請問一下反映速率的三級反映是所有高中生都必備的知識嗎?這些並不是所說的細節而是我們在訂定課綱的內容以及所有高中生應該要知道的內容時所最最關鍵的問題那這個部分我們可以考量到的是我們在修改課綱或微調的時候是不是把一些比較難的"},{"start":7980.254,"end":7996.225,"text":"誤以為他不需要太多時數﹖或者是比他以前必修的﹖可能基礎的﹖又放到選修﹖造成老師們可能在教導選校的時候又要回來多做一些補充﹖我想這個一定要再重述剛剛的﹖也就是仰賴現場老師們他們的一些回饋﹖"},{"start":7998.807,"end":8023.438,"text":"請在課內的時候盡可能處理銜接的問題不要太過的依賴 比方說高校提供的暑期銜接因為試想也許不是一個太貼切的比喻但是試想假如說公司希望你在課外面的時間去學習一些新知那其實大家都需要休息那請問假如說我不上班的時間不上學的時間都要再多來學一些東西想必心裡是不太愉快而且意願也不高的"},{"start":8024.418,"end":8040.024,"text":"最後是我認為在這個部分其實我們一直很缺乏的也就是我們一直關注在課綱應該要教什麼樣的學科內容可是在現在比方以我個人的使用經驗來看CHAT-GP4O已經可以解答超過八成以上的普通化學並且正確解答那在這個時候請問"},{"start":8043.505,"end":8053.237,"text":"大家不知道大家對這個有沒有共鳴也就是西皮哥呂千辛迦到底是什麼呢我想化學科老師以及高中的學生應該不陌生他其實是兩性金屬的一個口訣那當我們把所有的學科內容過多的強壓在學生的身上那麼學習本質就會失去意義他就會只剩下太多的口訣"},{"start":8063.969,"end":8079.7,"text":"實際上如何鍛鍊真正的學術思考已經會被淹沒在這張張的口訣表中以及我們到底需不需要每一個人都知道補居下漏這些注音符號那所以我認為其實剛剛想要講的事情是第三個也就是未來展望我們怎麼給學生釣竿我們應該更重視多元學習的方法也就是說除了學科內容學什麼"},{"start":8088.226,"end":8107.883,"text":"更重要的事情是在這個知識不斷累積而且快速的狀況之下學生如何學如何找到他怎麼學他想學什麼他要怎麼知道如何放棄哪些他學不會的其實都是重要的事情那因為時間的關係我想要往後跳主要是第二個抱歉"},{"start":8111.451,"end":8136.101,"text":"第一則是學習歷程檔案我認為它狹義而言我們從各身研究所推針到應徵職缺到創業其實都會需要把自己展現出來向別人推銷的能力所以我並不認為學習歷程檔案是一個完全需要cancel的制度而是說我們需要放寬一些上層的限制比方說參考一些卷宗的概念或者融入科技的應用那另外的事情是"},{"start":8136.921,"end":8153.273,"text":"新課綱上路到現在5年了我們還有很多的迷思沒有解決比方說假如說轉科怎麼辦或者是說我們到底要不要迎合教授但畢竟教授就是白白種如果我們的老師也一直懷著要如何迎合教授的心情那麼學生也會產生這種應該要迎合教授的焦慮"},{"start":8155.027,"end":8173.312,"text":"那廣義而言其實學習一程檔案應該是讓我們能夠後世的知道我們曾經學過了什麼走過了怎麼樣的路因為了什麼樣的轉折而來到這裡並且在各生的時候向教授說我是適合這裡的人這個我想才是狹義而言對於升學來講學生應該要重視的事情那最後的話我"},{"start":8178.387,"end":8204.982,"text":"到最後的話我認為應該要開上一個有機的對話才是如同封面所說的我們能夠聲音被聽見下一步應該要去理解彼此的權利責任和自然難心之處謝謝大家好謝謝那我們本會本席宣布我們現在就休息10分鐘10分鐘之後呢我們就請我們的高師大的鍾惠琪副教授謝謝"},{"start":8209.019,"end":8218.63,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8497.841,"end":8499.104,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":8630.945,"end":8631.025,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8808.715,"end":8810.055,"text":"主席 各位委員 在座的各位教育夥伴 大家早安"},{"start":8837.311,"end":8855.835,"text":"我個人在教育界服務43年在前年退休但是我今天非常高興能有這樣一個機會來跟各位繼續的學習那也有機會參與一些相關的工作來繼續瞭解教學的現況那我想今天就針對歷年來的服務的經驗還有這幾年來參與108課綱的相關的一些想法提出來供各位做參考"},{"start":8863.735,"end":8870.682,"text":"我想剛剛在各位在提到我想我的部分大概就兩個部分中間因為有些部分可能時間關係沒有辦法多講"},{"start":8873.438,"end":8900.794,"text":"學習歷程檔案這一塊剛剛各位已經琢磨很多它是108課綱裡面一個很重要的部分那很多人對這個制度也有所建言但我個人會認為當我們看一個制度純廢的時候或說批評的時候我們大概要回到兩個觀點來看第一個是以終為始問問看這個制度原來想做什麼第二個任何一個制度大概都有困難所以我們要去了解困難的原因去找求對策我覺得我們可以從這兩個角度來看"},{"start":8903.161,"end":8918.59,"text":"第一部分,我想以中為始的話剛剛也提到了素養剛剛幾位先進也提到素養我個人對於素養的詮釋我認為它有四個部分一個是未來一個是統整一個是生活另外一個是實踐那我們剛剛可能都忽略到未來這個部分"},{"start":8920.131,"end":8947.384,"text":"未來我們今天擔任教育工作者我們不要只看眼前的目標為未來的孩子們去增加在未來的競爭力才是我們教育為下一代應該要做的事情所以當我們去看108課綱當我們去看學習歷程檔案的時候其實你應該是要問這樣的一個東西他想培養出的人力有沒有可能會增進學生在未來的一個競爭力我覺得這是我們第一要考量的"},{"start":8947.964,"end":8958.098,"text":"所以我個人會覺得從第一個觀點來看的話我覺得我們要回過頭來問學習例子檔案最想要做什麼第一個我覺得是它本身就是一個重要的教學的目標"},{"start":8959.488,"end":8983.3,"text":"我們很坦率地講我們學的很多的東西我們可能忘掉了我們學的很多東西它其實只進到下一個教育階段一個敲門磚我們很多的東西它事實上它沒有辦法有可能是落伍的東西但有些東西不會落伍所以歐洲的經濟組織在它每年都會去建構未來我們學校的人才比如說2027年他們就認為分析力是非常重要的"},{"start":8983.82,"end":9003.079,"text":"所以在我們的學習歷程檔案裡面其實第一個我們要正本經驗去描述說在我們的課程裡面事實上他需要去培養什麼需要培養學生這種未來能力透過省思所以學習歷程是希望要求學生在各種過程當中去省思這是我想第一個要去說明的第二個是定向"},{"start":9004.315,"end":9029.554,"text":"我們的高中基本上已經分流了所以及早學生定校我們在大學也是如此我們不希望進到那個系的學生他不曉得他要學什麼他不曉得將來可以做什麼這個我想對於國家對於學校對於學生來講都是一個浪費時間第三個是育才的概念我們作為大學老師在大學服務我們很希望高中我們不希望抱怨高中但是我們希望高中幫我們培養"},{"start":9030.294,"end":9056.811,"text":"所以學習歷程檔案跟自主學習我們希望他學好了以後在大學這個教育階段他就可以很輕鬆的融入我們的學習體制裡面融入我們希望達到的目標因為自主學習可以幫助學生做一定程度的時間管理學習歷程檔案他可以很容易抓到在那個報告裡面他如何以儉遇凡去找到我們大學要做的東西所以這第四個部分就是我們今天強調的"},{"start":9058.511,"end":9058.852,"text":"主席"},{"start":9076.819,"end":9098.938,"text":"這個部分跟入學太過於掛鉤的話那麼它顯然不是一個均衡的目標所以我第一個想法就對於學習力打壓我覺得我們回過頭來要去思考我們是不是漏掉了什麼東西我們太著重的某些東西導致這個東西給別人帶來困擾沒有辦法達到真正的目的那第二個觀點我倒覺得我們對一個制度來說我們要針對它的困難"},{"start":9100.495,"end":9125.523,"text":"我們在覺得它要廢或不廢的時候 其實我們大概要問我們針對它的困難 是不是有曾經去做過針對困難來解決問題所以剛提到過彼得聖吉講到的根本解的概念我個人會覺得今天學術歷史人黨有這麼多真人 那是因為我們過度跟神學去做掛鉤了所以它會產生一些問題 這個問題包括什麼呢 這個問題包括大學的這一塊"},{"start":9126.67,"end":9151.976,"text":"大學的這一塊我自己在大學復活也當過系主任事實上真的我必須要反映兩個困難第一個給大學老師的時間是真的不夠的多少時間呢不到一週的時間我們必須要去看很多很多的部分這是非常客觀的事實第二個更重要還有主觀的問題大學老師跟高中老師對學習歷程檔案的觀點是不一樣的"},{"start":9152.836,"end":9177.703,"text":"大學老師彼此之間對於學習觀點是不一樣的事實上我們有非常嚴謹的制度學生來我們在看那個資料的時候我們在看那個資料的時候這邊也順便說一下請在座的各位夥伴不要懷疑大學老師一定會看那個資料但是在看那個資料的時候我們先前會有一個兩尺分數兩尺的範例給他們看我們事先在評之前會有一個委員的一個共通的一個討論"},{"start":9179.964,"end":9203.759,"text":"成績出來以後我們才還要再做一次彼此之間的交換意見即使如此同一位學生同一份檔案同一個指標我們兩位委員之間的是不一樣的所以這個部分我覺得是要去斟酌的另外一部分因為我們過度以升學掛鉤很多制度好但是我們一旦做到了讓它變成進到下一個階段的東西的時候常常會變質"},{"start":9205.18,"end":9232.226,"text":"我心裡有時候在想我們重視服務學習 非常好但是會不會服務學習學生是進來大學的挑門磚會不會造就這樣的學生是他寧可跑到外國去替別人棲房子但他回家卻不願意幫忙媽媽洗碗那這樣的服務學習究竟有什麼道理這點我想是要考慮到很重要是不是一定要把它當成是一個入學的工具其實第一個要看的所以第二個要看的剛剛幾位也提到了我們說因為你跟大學"},{"start":9233.046,"end":9233.907,"text":"接下來我們請葉元芝委員"},{"start":9267.596,"end":9277.821,"text":"主席 各位與會的 各位先進 大家好我們今天的主題是來討論108課綱實施檢討那我們今年是幾年呢 是113年所以我們在108課綱實施了5年之後我們還在檢討108課綱也許明年還要繼續檢討 後年還要繼續檢討也許到了117年還要檢討也許我們講的問題是一模一樣但是1011課綱就要實施了"},{"start":9295.209,"end":9321.527,"text":"這就是我覺得最可悲的地方就是每一年不斷的有學者、老師、學生各界的專家先進提出108課綱的各種問題但是教育部有沒有針對大家的意見去做檢討、去做改善看不到啊所以每年都檢討嘛檢討的目的是為了改進嘛但請教一下教育部檢討的時候你改進了什麼這是我覺得最大的問題啊"},{"start":9322.688,"end":9339.568,"text":"我在參加教育文化委員會平常我也跟非常多的老師跟很多學生我們在聊108課綱大家講的東西跟我在幾年前看到的東西一模一樣108課綱最大的問題是他把很多必修課減少了減少四分之一叫很多老師去開選修課"},{"start":9341.01,"end":9354.555,"text":"那這些選修課的老師的設計很多因為沒有考試就要交報告那些報告要做田野調查要研究方法等於是可能是大學碩士的程度才寫出來報告"},{"start":9355.994,"end":9385.314,"text":"蠻多學生沒有辦法完成這樣的報告怎麼辦呢找別人寫不然找CHAP GPT找AI那請問一下這樣的報告有達到任何效果嗎沒有壓力變大付出成本變多然後對於老師而言老師們因為他要去備課他要去開發非常多的選課的題目然後同時他也要去改很多剛剛我所講的田野調查報告也增加了時間但是老師"},{"start":9386.814,"end":9414.445,"text":"他的教課時數沒有檢討情況之下增加了改作業的時間還要備課造成老師壓力變大教學品質下降那請問一下教育部不知道這些問題嗎改善了什麼更不要說啦把必修課的時間去了四分之一之後造成必修課專業知識的低落同時也影響到高教我問很多大學的老師我問他們說現在的少子化的問題"},{"start":9416.021,"end":9442.203,"text":"你們怎麼解決他說我們現在大學最重要就是要接住學生什麼叫接住學生就是說讓這些學生進來之後不要因為學習的挫折而離開大學那為什麼會有學習的挫折呢因為當他們108課綱的學生進到大學之後他發現我讀這個理工科的怎麼我的物理跟不上我的微積分跟不上"},{"start":9443.084,"end":9448.272,"text":"所以我感到挫折我發現說是不是我好像不適合這個學系我要離開"},{"start":9449.773,"end":9477.492,"text":"所以這些學系的老師開始針對這些學生去做 去做了解發現原來是過去108課綱改變結果讓他們該學的沒有學到所以大學怎麼做呢 當時我前兩天我也在問教育部長他來自於高教他說 所以高教有有很多大學有開補救教學就是讓這些高中上來的學生可以再學習一下高中應該教的知識那我就跟他說 這就是問題啊"},{"start":9478.939,"end":9490.545,"text":"那為什麼我們高中應該教的人家不會還要到大學要補救咧所以講了這麼多的問題那我不知道說這個不斷的重複不斷的repeat請問一下教育部你改了什麼"},{"start":9491.837,"end":9517.392,"text":"那學習歷程檔案只要我們平常只要出去跟家長有碰面大家全部都是在搖頭啊學習歷程檔案裡面有很多問題啊我有看到很多學生團體也提出學習歷程檔案的問題學習歷程檔案是請大家自我探索然後研究報告那結果很多高一高二自我探索的方向不代表是他高三後來決定要讀的方向產生極大的焦慮"},{"start":9518.473,"end":9529.253,"text":"那更不要講說學習歷程檔案有一些比較有資源的人外包大家只要上網去看就一堆那種外包廠商在幫人家製作學習歷程檔案那這樣公平嗎"},{"start":9530.356,"end":9551.491,"text":"我的選區板橋高中裡面的老師告訴我他們有一半以上學生是不處理學習歷程檔案他們是專心去面對考試這樣子也達不到任何的效果啊然後再來108課綱必修課減少的原因造成大家讀一些學科失去興趣我就講歷史課我現在不再跟大家佔什麼意識形態"},{"start":9552.532,"end":9567.603,"text":"光是大家如果有去看那個歷史課的課本你就知道現在因為時數減少關係所以課文歷史的內容少得可憐學生最後只有幹嘛只有記那個年份以及記那個年份發生的大事記"},{"start":9568.524,"end":9587.936,"text":"沒有故事 沒有脈絡學生讀歷史感覺索然無味變成一個硬背的課程他沒有辦法從歷史裡面得到任何的啟發對他人生未來他沒有得到任何的借鏡這就是我們歷史去時數減少的結果啊更不要講啦"},{"start":9589.157,"end":9606.005,"text":"前兩天我有一個同學跟我講說他的小孩是七年級他說爸爸原來我昨天才發現中華民國統治過整個中華大陸他很驚訝那更多的小朋友呢他以為我們中華民國是從民國38年開始的所以我們中華民國一出生就38歲了"},{"start":9611.155,"end":9638.381,"text":"那這些都不是問題嗎這不要講什麼去中化不去中化光是把歷史搞到這麼破碎把歷史搞到讓大家對歷史產生這麼多誤解就有問題嗎所以我覺得因為今天很多專家學者都在現場大家還有學生同學我也看到很多同學在現場同學你們有那個團體你們的報告我都有看那我也看到了每次教育部派在現場他是怎麼敷衍你們的"},{"start":9640.332,"end":9666.171,"text":"小孩子好棒 你們好棒但是對於你講的意見沒有回應就是稱讚你好棒把同學很呼嚨你稱讚我好了我就可以不用你就不用回應我的意見同學現在都很聰明同學那麼積極犧牲自己課外休閒的時間願意為課綱盡一分力結果遇到蠻憨的政府這是我覺得最可悲的地方所以我不再針對"},{"start":9667.532,"end":9689.69,"text":"英巴克綱裡面 方方面面各種問題我提出建議 因為大家都講非常多我現在就利用這個公聽會 我嚴正的要求我們教育部單位你要正視大家所提出的問題 去解決否則今年是113年 明年114年 我們還是一樣抓在公聽會大家把所有問題重新再講一遍 那這個公聽會是沒有意義的 謝謝"},{"start":9696.084,"end":9696.284,"text":"鄭宇婕同學"},{"start":9712.976,"end":9729.914,"text":"各位夥伴大家早安首先在學習歷程檔案部分本會主張重視學生學習歷程檔案之精神訂定PDF落日期程建置學習歷程檔案系統為108課綱的配套措施之一除了讓學生在學期間累計"},{"start":9731.753,"end":9733.894,"text":"每期名是給予多元方式呈現個人特質的機會實際上則是摩薩設計學習歷程檔案制度的美意尤其"},{"start":9759.966,"end":9775.204,"text":"PTF檔案內容沒有如學習歷程檔案有教師驗證課程學習資料真實性的機制也無建樹之限制恐怕人落入被受詬病之軍備競賽窘境甚至有花錢委外制作的情勢"},{"start":9777.288,"end":9798.323,"text":"過去幾年政府與學生學校投入了大量人力財力建置學習歷程檔案並做教師增能以往為維護非108課綱從考生或境外生的升學權益等例外情形允許學生使用PDF現今108課綱已進入第五年如果仍允許學習歷程檔案與PDF雙軌並存將會嚴重影響學生建置學習協定檔案的意圖"},{"start":9805.054,"end":9827.18,"text":"是以本會呼籲教育部應研議PDF備審資料之落日齊成必與學生入學高中前公告教育部應重視學生學習歷程檔案之精神應藉畢業生在升學時大學端應採記學習歷程檔案例外情形如境外生方得允許上傳PDF檔案取代"},{"start":9830.171,"end":9853.001,"text":"此外正因學習歷程檔案兼具高中端育才以及大學端選才之功能在現今仍有人持質疑態度本會建議教育部統計111至112學年度以學習歷程檔案入學之普大及科大生在大學端修學、退學、轉學的比率用數據確實說明及驗證學習歷程的育才及選才功能"},{"start":9857.219,"end":9883.617,"text":"其次本會的第二項主張是確保精緻化教學關注學生身心發展應立即降低高中班級人數就此議題將分四個面向做論述第一個面向是有關108課綱高中階段實行108課綱應朝精緻國教發展以為學生的學習權調降班級人數落實合一班級人數更能體現教育基本法小班小校的精神108課綱強調學生適性發展"},{"start":9887.599,"end":9911.188,"text":"彈性課程﹚多元選修﹚探究與實作等都使得學生個別化學習歷程比重逐年增加調降班級人數才能讓教師更能觀照學生的個別差異提供指導與協助也有更多時間給予每位學生相關學習的回饋和資源提供客製化服務降低高中班級人數方有助推動落實新課綱適性化學習"},{"start":9915.073,"end":9928.45,"text":"2.有關融合教育特性的需求依據高級中等以下學校身心障礙學生就讀普通班調整班級人數或提供人力資源及協助辦法普通班每安置身心障礙學生1人減少該班級人數1至3人"},{"start":9932.114,"end":9958.191,"text":"但在少子化趨勢下﹐儘管整體學生數雖然持續減少﹐但因為對於特殊教育接受度的提升﹐特教生建出率反而是逐年提升加之在融合教育下﹐國內特教生有96%以上安置於一般學校﹐可以預期未來一般班級當中﹐特教生的比例只會增加﹐不會減少若各班都有特殊生時﹐則左減人數便難以落實"},{"start":9959.292,"end":9980.278,"text":"此外在目前考照制度下﹐特殊生入學管道多元﹐學校未必能夠完全掌握入學的特生人數﹐更遑論進行左檢﹐因此左檢人數往往成為﹐看得到但卻吃不到的大餅﹐以至於高中不僅是35人﹐還外加特殊生﹐如此一來﹐會變成老師面對龐大的班群要處理﹐"},{"start":9981.218,"end":9993.856,"text":"特殊生的需求老師也要滿足勢必無法兼顧有損一般生及特殊生的權益因此降低普通班的班級人數勢在必行方能更好地關注學生的學習及發展"},{"start":9994.912,"end":10023.604,"text":"第三個面向是高中校園的暴力事件與偏差行為激增教育部校安系統統計去年發生在高中校園的暴力事件與偏差行為案件有8462件以一年上學200日計算平均每個上學日發生42件暴力行為暴力事件校園暴力發生頻率如此高面對班級人數眾多的情形下請問老師如何能有心力應對"},{"start":10024.924,"end":10044.455,"text":"教育部為了預防校園暴力新版的校安通報機制從今年3月8日生效然而上述機制是在於通報卻會提出系統性的預防政策同樣的在班級人數過高的情形之下不論是暴力事件或偏差行為都會耗費教師相當多的心力處理"},{"start":10045.416,"end":10047.818,"text":"第4個面向是高中生自殺及自傷人數逐年攀高"},{"start":10072.065,"end":10088.185,"text":"教育部之前的分析中也指出八成自殺死亡的學生事前沒有向輔導室求助此時第一線教師的敏銳度及對學生的關切極為重要面對35人以上的大班級老師能關注到學生問題的機率相對降低"},{"start":10088.806,"end":10108.595,"text":"何況班上一旦有學生發生自殺或自傷情形﹖無論是導師及任課老師﹖皆要花更多心力去輔導該學生﹖及其他可能受到影響的學生﹖在此情形下﹖如果班級人數降低﹖老師們方能有更多餘裕去關懷學生﹖阻卻憾事於前端﹖"},{"start":10109.315,"end":10132.977,"text":"基於上述理由本會建請將公立高中班級人數逐年降至30人私立學校降至40人以為學生受效品質並朝精緻化教育邁進以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們的主任接下來我們請陽明高中的鄭雨潔同學然後嘉義市紅人高中的呂佩珍同學請準備"},{"start":10140.27,"end":10140.29,"text":"暫停會議"},{"start":10153.239,"end":10165.835,"text":"主席、學者、教育部的官人、記者們大家好我是台北市立陽明高中高三的鄭宇婕同時我也是這次今年課章觀察報告的其中一個撰寫者其實對於我們來說"},{"start":10170,"end":10187.528,"text":"這幾年來一年看到從我們第一年撰寫到現在寫了三年其實每一年都看到不同學生的想法以及教育部的改進但其實我們認為其中還是有許多的問題可能還是沒有被看見或者說還是有一些落實上跟一開始規劃上的問題"},{"start":10189.289,"end":10189.529,"text":"雙語教育及本土語"},{"start":10213.898,"end":10214.098,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":10228.234,"end":10243.4,"text":"不管是雙語或是本土語其實都必須看到它背後的文化內涵那目前感覺起來第一現場的學生並沒有感覺到學習本土語的同時也是在學習我們背後的文化內涵這件事情"},{"start":10244.66,"end":10270.099,"text":"然後以及以雙語教育來說學生因為他是突然間被加進去的然後以及他並沒有一個長時間的規劃各校的實施情況不一也會看到有學生說老師只是在課堂當中加一兩個英文單字而已但有一些學校的學生也會說老師教得非常認真有看到老師就是盡可能的將雙語融入在課堂當中"},{"start":10270.919,"end":10297.538,"text":"那如何將這樣的情況降低我們認為是應該要就是在討論118課綱的時候必須將雙語跟本土語都融入在課綱當中而並非用疊從加入的方式去解決這樣的問題那同時身為雙語班的學生我們也會希望雙語班有一個雙語班自己的雙語教材去兼換學校各校老師以及學生吸收到的內容是完全不一樣的情況"},{"start":10300.064,"end":10322.824,"text":"身為高三的學生,其實我們看到高三下的教室是非常的混亂的有學生在準備各生的備審,有學生是在分科,然後有一些上岸的學生其實就是在教室耍廢我其實是贊同目前將選修課安排在高三,然後把更多的時間還給學生自己來進行安排的"},{"start":10323.544,"end":10343.251,"text":"但同時也必須去考慮到那些分科的學生是否真的有辦法完全投入在課堂當中以及各身的學生是否有足夠的時間可以進行書審的製作那我會認為目前教室這麼混亂的情況其實是因為學生並沒有將自主學習的能力融入到生活當中"},{"start":10343.971,"end":10360.843,"text":"學生無法在課堂當中完全的去實施去將自主學習融入在自己的生活所以他只把自主學習當作是一堂課程所以學生他們到高三下依然不會將自主學習融入到課堂之中"},{"start":10364.252,"end":10389.569,"text":"那從學黨的方面來說我們也看到大學的招生委員聯合會不停的在提出三中二部但其實對於高中端的教師以及學生一直都有個想法就是要全部做滿因此看到非常多學生在高三下的時候一直在想辦法去湊滿那些建樹但是其實如果已經確定"},{"start":10391.07,"end":10416.532,"text":"就是大學端已經提出了三中二部那學生 高中學生是不是應該可以去兼換學生對於學習歷程要製作到滿的這件事情但其實可以看到的事情是沒有然後以及各生其實是唯一用得到升學用得到學長的升學管道但其實我們從報告中也發現非常多的特選的學生其實依然有蠻高的意願去願意去製作學習歷程"},{"start":10418.093,"end":10429.178,"text":"其實是因為特選的學生將學習歷程作為記錄他學習軌跡的一個工具而並非一個用來升學的工具"},{"start":10430.899,"end":10451.365,"text":"那其實從學生的製作學習歷程內在動機的高低差距是非常非常大的如何提升學生自主學習的動機也就是非常重要的一件事情所以我們期望可以將不管是研究方法或是一些電腦文書工具的處理可以到國中甚至到國小就開始讓學生進行學習"},{"start":10452.965,"end":10478.654,"text":"一方面是減緩學生上的高中端需要去製作學習歷程的壓力另一方面也是讓學生可以知道說如何去就是製作學習歷程其實沒有大家想那麼難只要把它當作是一個我們在記錄自己學習的學習過程的一個工具就好了以及學習歷程一直有個問題是很多學生到了高三下或甚至高二的時間會大量的進行重做"},{"start":10479.954,"end":10507.191,"text":"那是不是我們應該也要讓這些學生他的學習軌跡是可以被看到的因為目前學習歷程其實是只能提交就是最終檔的結果學生是沒有辦法看到學生他在第一版第二版第三版不同的改變所以我們也期望說可以將這些學生的變動就是說他的製作軌跡是可以被完整的呈現在他們提出上去的資料讓教授可以看見學生的學習"},{"start":10508.193,"end":10509.557,"text":"那講自主學習的話我會認為其實蠻多"},{"start":10514.164,"end":10514.444,"text":"謝謝各位"},{"start":10543.866,"end":10544.226,"text":"呂佩珍委員"},{"start":10562.52,"end":10580.499,"text":"各位主席及各位來賓你們好我是就讀嘉義市紅人高級中學的學生我叫佩珍然後呢再來我會針對於一些學生在學校及考照制度所面臨的困境作為解說那首先呢我想要先提到的部分是多元選修的部分在高中"},{"start":10581.039,"end":10601.285,"text":"高級中等學校課程規劃及作為要點當中﹐給予學校法院依據開設跨校選修課程﹐並邀請大專院校入校開設選車課程等措施﹐但在真的教育現場是真的有做到嗎﹐然而現實的困境是﹐學生面臨到了資訊不對等﹐以及無法融入下來的資源﹐"},{"start":10602.285,"end":10624.416,"text":"然而我們在這一次的課綱觀察報告當中﹐我們也訪談到了許多的大學教授﹐他們也提及高中端與大學端應該要有資訊流通﹐且一定有一定的必要性﹐因此我認為多元選手能夠與大學端多合作﹐並給予學生更多的機會去選擇自己心儀的課程﹐又或者是可以使學生去參與或設計課程﹐"},{"start":10627.277,"end":10644.171,"text":"這些現象呢﹐如果可以在教育現場被落實的話﹐這不僅可以讓學生有更多元的學習的機會﹐跟選秀的自由﹐同時也可以減緩老師們所遇到的困境及瓶頸﹐並給他們提供更多的支持以及幫助再來我想要說的部分是考招的制度"},{"start":10645.012,"end":10671.338,"text":"特殊選材的學生也如同我們報告上面寫到的製作學習歷程檔案內在動機最強的一群人也就是特殊選材的學生我們以個生來為例的話個生的學生多數會以學測成績放榜之後作為選田大學志向的評斷標準而不是興趣及志向在特殊選材的學生中呢他們是比較不受升學主義所影響的一群同學因此他們"},{"start":10672.574,"end":10699.066,"text":"在選擇自己大學的志向的時候往往都是比較早定向然後開始逐步的準備因此在學生放榜之前不少個生的學生仍舊以讀書為目標而不是生涯探索當到需要繳交學習歷程檔案的時候也就是需要一階的時候才會為他報考的校系做客製化的撰寫也就是學校需要什麼我就審什麼出來"},{"start":10700.727,"end":10721.754,"text":"雖然特殊選材作為入學管道,但是它的入取名額相對來說是所有管道裡面來說最少的。所以我覺得可以提倡此管道的入取名額增加,然後減少競爭,可以扣除掉一些崇拜同學之後,還是有比較多的同學可以利用此管道進入大學。"},{"start":10722.594,"end":10737.679,"text":"因此我希望教育部可以提高這個的入學名額﹐讓有更多的學生可以認為自己有機會利用此管道入學大學﹐從而強調內在動機的重要﹐並提倡早點生涯探索﹐未來志向等等"},{"start":10740.192,"end":10760.863,"text":"學習歷程檔案在三年都要逐步的上傳但我們在問卷中我們了解到有許多學生遇到問題的時候第一時間雖然是尋求老師但還有部分學生居然是尋求補習班原因竟是因為覺得學校對於自己解決學習歷程檔案並未有所幫助"},{"start":10762.063,"end":10787.748,"text":"學習歷程檔案制度本該是一個零花費的制度﹐但也因為這樣﹐能衍生出許多學生﹐會願意花高價製作學習歷程檔案﹐而讓學黨帶寫帶做的事情逐漸地氾濫﹐因此我期望政府跟一些學者媒體﹐可以對一些事實進行討論及推廣﹐以降低資訊落差所造成不必要的開銷﹐同時也可以減緩第一線家長以及學生的焦慮﹐"},{"start":10789.488,"end":10815.253,"text":"教育部所提供的作火學學檔的相關審議成果常常我們可以在網路上看到只要有關於學習歷程檔案製作教育部都是以這個來回復一些媒體的語情回應而且我們在當中也可以瞭解到教育部也要求作火學學習歷程檔案手冊要廣發至各班各校並函請各校活用該手冊及海報及網站等相關資訊"},{"start":10816.653,"end":10840.15,"text":"但其實﹐在真正的教育現場﹐其實有將近6吋的學生﹐並不知道手冊到底是什麼﹐而且為此感到非常的陌生﹐所以由此可知﹐多數學生認為做活學生﹐審議政策是一個無感政策﹐因此﹐我們需要重新審視傳播的媒介的合一性﹐並定期直面與敵線的使用者﹐一起互動﹐了解其真實尋求﹐"},{"start":10841.431,"end":10864.499,"text":"同時為期望全責機關能夠追究作為學生一計劃是否有執行上或落實上的重大瑕疵或疏忽從而導致普及率偏低的情況在最後我想要提及的是哲學教育及118課綱的願景在108課綱中我們期望學生能夠有素養的能力提問以及解決問題的能力"},{"start":10866.653,"end":10889.61,"text":"在未來的課綱中也許哲學教育就是一個新的教育現場的新模式但是如果現在把哲學教育強加至學生以及高中校園當中學生在面臨課業繁重及學習壓力極大的情況下很難有比較好的成效因此我認為在引進哲學教育之前應該要先降低紙筆測驗參賽的成績以及參賽的比例"},{"start":10893.032,"end":10914.849,"text":"使學生不再只是單單的被生學主義所綁架﹐也透過湊選名額的增設﹐使學生可以對自己的未來做更好的探索及規劃﹐同時在不被生學主義所綁架的情況下﹐或許學生會有更多的內在動機去做自己的內在探索﹐而不是為了學校﹐為了讀書而製作學習里程檔案﹐"},{"start":10916.09,"end":10942.45,"text":"最後在118課綱當中﹐我們也期望可以引進卷宗品良的精神﹐讓學生可以在高中三年當中﹐可以不停地對自己的檔案進行加注及修改﹐同時也可以讓他們﹐獲得一個成長的過程﹐可以看到自己的進步﹐從而減少到高三下﹐才因為學長﹐之前的學長做得不太好﹐需要全部重做的壓力"},{"start":10943.519,"end":10943.939,"text":"李佩珍 葛如軍委員"},{"start":10970.595,"end":10986.365,"text":"感謝召委安排今天的公聽會我作為不分區立法委員其實所有區域的選民所有的民眾都是我所關注的那這段時間不管上任前上任後我最多收到的建議以及關注確實就是108課綱的議題"},{"start":10988.546,"end":11003.835,"text":"這個議題一直受到很多的學生、家長和老師們的高度關注我認為今天的公聽會除了檢討108課綱的施行問題以外更重要的是藉由這次的機會也來收集、聆聽跟瞭解各界對於108課綱施行的意見作為未來課綱的參考依據不管新的課綱是叫做未來課綱還是118課綱我們都應該務實的面對學生、家長以及社會各界的批評、指教當然還有期待"},{"start":11017.483,"end":11040.637,"text":"前幾天教育部在業務報告當中提到數位學習以及AI相關的科技應用將是下一波課綱研修的重要議題目前正要啟動下一波課綱研修的前置作業為了因應時代的變遷新科技發展以及國家重要的政策將與時俱進的去把數位學習以及人工智慧納入課綱"},{"start":11041.658,"end":11063.158,"text":"本席對此固然表示肯定 但是也要向教育部提出兩要一不要的重要提醒兩要 要AI 要空間 一不要 不要不溝通不討論就貿然施行首先雖然教育部一再的強調希望學生不要在製作學習履歷檔案的過程當中去花費任何的金錢"},{"start":11064.039,"end":11087.452,"text":"但是根據民間團體AdYouth發布的2024年108課綱觀察報告當中指出仍有高達12%的學生曾經花錢製作學習歷程的檔案當中購買生成式AI的服務比例是最高的花費大約在百元到千元之間其餘八成沒有花錢的學生當中則可能有一定的比例"},{"start":11088.292,"end":11101.958,"text":"使用免費AI的工具因此本席對於教育部的第一個提醒就是要AI而且要AI平權當越來越多的學生在製作學習歷程檔案的過程當中使用AI工具教育部應該明確的規則在製作學習歷程檔案的時候可以使用AI工具的範圍是什麼"},{"start":11110.262,"end":11130.55,"text":"需不需要清楚的揭示與AI協作的紀錄以及比例到底占比多高屬於人類的產出占比多高屬於AI的產出唯有清楚的揭示AI參與的程度並且留下紀錄才對學生們而言是一場公平的競爭否則有非常多的學生"},{"start":11131.03,"end":11150.086,"text":"到目前為止可能都還不知道AI能夠如何的運用那麼也就造成了不公平的狀態也避免老師在評選的過程當中產生爭議另外一方面教育部也應該關注AI工具可能產生隱性助長教育M型化的現象"},{"start":11151.345,"end":11167.723,"text":"加進好的學生﹐可以使用最高級﹐最貴的付費版AI工具﹐產出精美的學習成果﹐加進不夠好的學生﹐只能使用免費的AI工具﹐甚至不懂得如何使用﹐產出相對出招的作品﹐"},{"start":11168.263,"end":11186.868,"text":"我們到底是在鼓勵學生自我學習成長還是鼓勵學生比較存款的高低教育部應該及早重視AI平權的議題並且研議相關的協助方案無論家庭收入的狀況如何都應該賦予學生平等取得AI工具協作學習的機會"},{"start":11188.709,"end":11214.603,"text":"接下來也希望想詢問一下在座的官員或者朋友們你是在幾歲的時候確定自己的未來志向呢根據108課綱觀察報告的調查近六成的學生會依據想要申請的科系朝向特定目標來製作學習歷程檔案但是現行的制度下每年只能上傳6項高中三年一共只能上傳18項有許多學生反映"},{"start":11216.664,"end":11239.942,"text":"不同的階段高一高二都在探索志向還不了解但是一邊面對茫然的探索生涯的過程一邊還要受迫於上傳學習履歷成果的時間壓力這種無助感真的希望在場的官員們可以感同身受假設你們要在高一階段馬上就決定未來的志向這有多困難連我自己都做不到我也沒有想過這個時候會站在這個國會的殿堂"},{"start":11243.244,"end":11266.48,"text":"來跟大家進行學習跟交流那所以呢我想在評鑑的時候能夠更加了解學習的歷程而且有更加彈性的方式來加注跟修改這是我對教育部的第二個提醒就是要空間這個空間不只是要有彈性修改的空間同時上傳檔案的空間也拜託給予增加學習的歷程的檔案大小不應該只侷限於PDF 4MB"},{"start":11270.422,"end":11287.952,"text":"現在大家拿出智慧型手機拍攝一張照片就已經到6MB了各位可以想像一下4MB的文件檔PDF Word到底能放多少東西教育部的官網說可以放15張照片我本來也覺得這是個理由但是我質詢以後我收到偏鄉的孩子傳相關的Email告訴我"},{"start":11290.774,"end":11304.224,"text":"很多人是不知道如何用壓縮的方式來壓縮這些檔案他們遇到的只是不斷的上傳不了不斷的發生錯誤所以我想這個一定要來改進更不用講影音檔只能上傳10MB"},{"start":11306.766,"end":11329.625,"text":"720P的影片只能上傳20秒1080P只能上傳不到9秒鐘我們現在最新的智慧型手機都是4K了上傳不到5秒的內容我們要如何理解到學生的能力更不用講即使體系的學生這是他們非常重要的表達方式所以一定要讓他們可以自由的表達而且提供相應的彈性空間"},{"start":11331.024,"end":11336.368,"text":"最後想要提醒教育部的一不要就是不要不溝通不討論不溝通不討論"},{"start":11339.824,"end":11362.578,"text":"很可能會造成許多許多人的關注與關心不溝通不討論沒有共識的情況之下貿然增加學生以及老師的負擔雖然本席對於118課綱考慮納入數位學習人工智慧表示肯定但是回顧過去教育部過往的做法已經現在有基層的老師開始擔心"},{"start":11364.199,"end":11388.284,"text":"會不會又要在過去要追求雙語投入了一大堆的資源設立了一大堆的KPI結果英語也不好國語也不好後來又要來說我們的雙語不代表只是國語跟英語未來我們會不會數位學習又有相關的亂象以後又要改叫多元學習假數位學習假AI學習之名又要來行教育學習評鑒之時的亂象再度發生"},{"start":11390.845,"end":11407.173,"text":"我們要求教育部應該立刻展開社會溝通讓學生家長老師充分表達意見才能夠推動務實的數位學習AI平權的政策謝謝好謝謝葛委員接下來我們請陳培宇委員謝謝"},{"start":11414.694,"end":11431.874,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝今天與會的所有專家學者還有青年學子給我們非常多寶貴的意見但是關於108課綱的部分我想要先說我自己的兩個小孩今年一個高三一個國三正正就是108課綱的受益學子必須要這麼說"},{"start":11433.355,"end":11462.408,"text":"因為108課綱裡面有一個非常重要的精神強調思辨強調實作強調討論強調趣味全化的這些事情對於我們家兩個小孩來說而且長年都在公立學校我們從來沒有走出公立學校的主流體制我看到公立學校這幾年非常多老師非常多家長非常多同學在這個氛圍底下去感受這樣的學習氛圍於是當然我必須要說剛剛所有委員所提醒的所有"},{"start":11462.888,"end":11463.268,"text":"學習歷程"},{"start":11480.413,"end":11486.117,"text":"很有可能變成軍備競賽這件事情我必須要說在現場我確實也看到孩子們的同學有人做類似的事情但是我要說以我自己身為家長為例過去三年在陪伴小孩成長的過程當中"},{"start":11495.643,"end":11507.314,"text":"只要每一年有相關的大學辦座談會我都會跟孩子一起去聽在那樣的座談會現場有非常多的大學教授甚至是負責招生的學務處的教務處的老師們會站出來拜託家長不要再讓學生做軍備競賽"},{"start":11513.28,"end":11539.532,"text":"已經很多第一線的大學教授在講這件事情而且每年每年每年都在講如果家長們或是更多老師願意去聽這樣的座談就會知道軍備競賽這件事情它基本上是過往對於升學主義擔心的整個往下的移序所以去到這個移序的情況下我們如何讓孩子展現自己充分學習的天賦跟探索的機會探索的樣態展現在學習歷程裡面我覺得那才是現場我們要去面對的"},{"start":11542.873,"end":11545.395,"text":"學習歷程並沒有帶有任何原罪而是因為現場很多執行的困難或是大家在新舊制度交接當中所產生的認知上的落差"},{"start":11572.953,"end":11595.997,"text":"只要老師跟家長不要這麼多的焦慮不要這麼多的擔心不要這麼多的框架其實孩子在國中階段還有高中階段他們是一個自我探索成為自己英雄的階段我要再次強調國中生跟高中生絕對不是只是為了福音權威而長大的學習階段他們是在成為自己的英雄的探索的路上"},{"start":11596.437,"end":11596.457,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11612.944,"end":11613.004,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11635.337,"end":11642.962,"text":"跟著開啟108的討論我更建議我們除了所有現場教育的配套更多的研究必須要同步進行尤其是從課綱的改變社會環境的變遷還有數位社群媒體所給孩子們帶來的壓力這些都是我們大人需要了解"},{"start":11650.627,"end":11677.824,"text":"當我們大人也很開心用的這些社群媒體的時候孩子們所面臨的壓力真的比我們更大因為他們在形塑自我的過程當中他們還要花一個眼睛、花一個力氣、花一個心思去看別人在網路上怎麼評價他、怎麼霸凌他甚至怎麼討論他們而每一個孩子身邊有一個、兩個、三個、四個、五個社群媒體而每一個社群媒體裡面再搭配三個帳號這樣子的孩子他們怎麼好好生活所以我要提醒教育部在相關的研究必須要同步跟進"},{"start":11678.504,"end":11678.844,"text":"接下來我要說的是"},{"start":11693.843,"end":11719.015,"text":"除了學習歷程之外,多元選修我們確實也聽到很多老師跟校長告訴我們第一線的困境是什麼呢目前之前在所謂的108課綱前期準備學校很多很棒的高中他們確實在開出多元選修課程是有量能的可是我們必須要注意到另外一件事情也要拜託教育部的次長這邊幫我們注意很多偏鄉學校在開多元選修課程的量能是不足的"},{"start":11719.335,"end":11747.803,"text":"那當然之前教育部有提出可不可以遠距可不可以跨校但是我們要說遠距跟跨校現場一樣所需要的資源所需要的配套教育部如何協同地方政府教育局再協助各校老師去完成我覺得這也是一個很大的命題跟困難一旦把這些城鄉差距偏鄉的孩子們的需求放入所有的政策跟資源配套考量我們才可以放心並且開心的說108課綱是真的可以照顧到每一個孩子"},{"start":11748.363,"end":11776.41,"text":"那另外對於孩子們來說對於老師們來說如果在多元選修課程都有這麼多困難我要講的是其他的課程數量當然我知道前面有很多專家提到所謂去學科化或者是只有強調讀尊閱讀這件事情我要說確實如果我們從表面的學分數來看目前孩子們的課表上有所謂的自主學習探究實作雙語教育本土教育多元選修這麼多看起來讓我們這些大人一下子看不懂的科目確實排擠掉了"},{"start":11777.89,"end":11778.13,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":11795.9,"end":11813.252,"text":"發揮老師自己的專長這也是教育部必須要同時傾聽老師跟學生的聲音最後一件事情所謂讀真閱讀這件事情我要再次強調我們辦公室長期關注閱讀這件事情但是我要再次說閱讀它已經不是所謂的風花雪月了如果你回去看很多偏鄉的孩子他們在所謂"},{"start":11814.392,"end":11831.918,"text":"長長的提幹當中遇到的困難就是剛很多老師說的可能老師們自己連看題目都看不懂偏鄉的孩子在閱讀能力上這件事情因為沒有好的家庭文化資源的支持進到學校之後很多老師可能沒有意識到孩子們必須要學的是方法而不是學科"},{"start":11832.698,"end":11849.754,"text":"當孩子沒有方法就快速進入學科學習的時候他如何能夠在學科成績上取得好的成就所以我要再次強調閱讀它必須要成為一個方法被教育部重新檢視它不能再只是所謂競爭型補助計畫大家以為閱讀只是寫學習單嗎大家以為閱讀只是學習基點嗎大家以為閱讀只是跑關嗎 不"},{"start":11855.279,"end":11878.386,"text":"大量的科學研究告訴我們閱讀已經是這個世代的小孩不是只有台灣的小孩是全世界的小孩共同缺乏的能力而那個能力這件事情它回扣到學科學習它必須要被教育部看見它的重點當然我知道在這麼多學科情況下我們不可能再排入一個所謂閱讀科或者是閱讀這個方法學的概念但是如何把這個方法"},{"start":11878.826,"end":11879.527,"text":"謝謝主席 很抱歉超時30秒 謝謝大家"},{"start":11903.144,"end":11904.626,"text":"主席各位先進 大家好"},{"start":11922.151,"end":11950.126,"text":"我要先介紹一下我的背景我除了是高中校長之外我之前是當課程督學然後我一個很好的朋友是課綱委員然後我也參與了大學招生專業化最重要的是我的女兒是108課綱的第一屆所以我獲得了很多的訊息那我今天想要用我的角度來提供大家一些解法首先第一個是學習歷程的調整其實我們老師我本身也是物理老師"},{"start":11951.187,"end":11977.194,"text":"我們老師過去的工作都是教學生準備考試所以其實我們自己也不太會做學期歷程檔案那既然這個新課綱已經五年了我會建議可否仿照這個碩博士論文的網站因為我們讀碩士的時候也不會寫論文嘛我們就會上去看這個論文所以如果有機會有一個網站可以參考的話那我相信有分門別類應該學生就比較不會緊張擔心"},{"start":11979.292,"end":11979.452,"text":"大學招生專業"},{"start":11993.584,"end":12022.597,"text":"教授進到高中教室去看這個可以促進雙方的交流那我要說的是當然時代在改變現在大家看到的18歲的孩子他們是很辛苦經歷了這個疫情他們像我女兒幾乎也沒有畢業典禮畢業旅行之類的那當然這個新課綱也有一些影響那我要說的是我們的孩子至少他在表達能力跟創意是比以前好的"},{"start":12023.41,"end":12051.638,"text":"當然你不可能要求又要創意好﹑表達能力好﹑物理又考得好有幾好沒兩好﹑所以﹑也許大學端可以多到學校去﹑看看現在高中生變得怎麼樣了﹑我覺得大學也需要與時俱進﹑因為我自己身份是高中校長再來是我們的學生﹑剛才大家都很擔心學習歷程檔案﹑我在家長來高一的時候﹑我就會清楚地跟他們說﹑你們每學期做好一份"},{"start":12052.705,"end":12052.905,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12075.09,"end":12101.257,"text":"當然我們做這個學習議程檔案如果我們主題改變但也許我們的一般能力是不變的什麼意思呢即使你是要考資訊科系但你可能做一個SDGs的專案但你的合作能力還是在的所以有哪些是一般性的能力孩子轉換跑道是可以帶著過去當面試資料哪些是例如說寫程式的能力你要要求到怎麼樣的程度所以"},{"start":12101.877,"end":12102.097,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":12128.592,"end":12142.717,"text":"應該要同樣的人什麼意思今天你去補習班買一個學歷層檔案拿過來我問你三個問題你必答無疑啦但是如果省的人是那一群人他又沒留下問題然後面試的又是另外一群人那自然學生就會造假嘛"},{"start":12143.677,"end":12169.246,"text":"那我有聽說很多大學他已經是相同的人但的確還有一些大學是不同的人那我也要提醒如果你們覺得會造假你們就同樣的人然後問他學習歷程檔案裡面的東西他自然就沒辦法造假再來是課綱的問題因為我對課綱的這個制定的過程也參與了蠻多的但是我們當初在調整時數的時候事實上我們有花很多時間討論國高中的銜接"},{"start":12171.633,"end":12193.805,"text":"但我們幾乎沒有討論到高中跟大學的銜接那其實我們每一個課綱的領綱的委員裡面都是大學教授主導的所以大學如果覺得我們這樣改了之後能力不夠讀大學那其實在領綱公佈的時候就應該要趕快提出因為在課程會審查的時候還有機會加回來"},{"start":12195.026,"end":12195.746,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員："},{"start":12219.718,"end":12220.479,"text":"高級中等教育實施檢討"},{"start":12241.374,"end":12266.628,"text":"讓出版社寫課本然後我們也去審了課本然後告訴大家說這些課本這些內容你們是教得完的但是現在在高中端有一個軍備競賽就是所有的教科書都會有配套包含講義測驗卷光碟題庫這些東西那當然這些東西其實是給老師用是沒有關係但其實有老師上課是用講義上不是用課本上"},{"start":12267.208,"end":12281.081,"text":"好 那老師你用了那麼厚的一本講義然後上不完現在抱怨那我就覺得很奇怪齁所以這邊是不是我們應該讓高中教科書的配套要審查或者是應該要限制老師上課不要用太多"},{"start":12282.131,"end":12303.299,"text":"在大學端每次大學端就說高中物理不夠好那我就會建議你們可以自己用第二階段加考物理尤其是非常頂尖的大學我相信學生應該會為了這個準備更難的物理再來一個是其實有很多大學可以去看高三下的物理成績你從那個成績就可以看到他是不是都沒有準備"},{"start":12306.16,"end":12324.834,"text":"大學端在6月放榜到9月還有3個月我相信不是只有物理很重要更重要的是原文書的閱讀技巧這是我們英文課沒有教的所以如果大學端真的想要學生跟得上那在微積分還有原文閱讀這些課都是大學端需要開的"},{"start":12325.919,"end":12326.539,"text":"謝謝林校長 接下來我們請段欣怡秘書長"},{"start":12365.99,"end":12369.494,"text":"主席"},{"start":12370.951,"end":12376.972,"text":"各位謝謝很高興今天有這個機會在這邊我們提一下108課綱在108課綱我的準備是根據108課綱出現的問題然後談到它的後果並且提出我矯正缺失的一個建議最後我嘗試是不是我們可以在法律上面做點修改來讓108課綱它能夠"},{"start":12396.977,"end":12402.741,"text":"第一,108課綱的歷程最嚴重的是學習歷程檔案第二,在基礎學科能力的弱化必修實數不足以完整學習入學方式讓高三下學期成為空窗期素養命題讓各科考卷變成閱讀測驗"},{"start":12426.556,"end":12432.738,"text":"無法撤出學科的專業最後一個,文史課程因為政治掛帥國文科刪掉了四分之三的古文篇章並且去中華文化基本教材歷史科去時序脈絡,去中國史這二者都重傷了學科的核心能力我覺得這個地方是需要特別被注意的"},{"start":12449.343,"end":12453.366,"text":"108課綱在這種問題造成的後果是什麼呢第一個學科專業無法銜接大學課程讓大學成績雪崩雪崩的話我們可以提出兩個教授他所做的一個很明確的建議第一個是臺大的電機資訊學院的院長張耀文教授他的資料我附在資料中給大家看過"},{"start":12473.061,"end":12475.862,"text":"因為台大有兩屆學生在選維基分每一屆都有共同考題所以他們可以說是非常準確的一個樣本首屆108課維基分的成績降低超過9%剛才我們有人佐證清華大學也是一樣9到20%是各個學院在維基分這個成績下降的一個狀況"},{"start":12498.934,"end":12500.054,"text":"普通物理教學困境 更像雪上加霜 化學也是一樣"},{"start":12527.076,"end":12529.717,"text":"臺灣科技的頂級產業遭逢嚴重的缺材窘境所以半導體產業提前到高中招生臺積電招生的車子都使進了中山女高可見嚴重性趕快把學生招進半導體學院來培訓"},{"start":12548.744,"end":12548.904,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":12569.209,"end":12574.292,"text":"他們還沒提到這一點因為他們的整個學歷低落造成了產業人才不足而他們持續的辦法是從國外進移工可是他們卻沒有想到我們這些學生將來他們的出路在哪邊所以這個是第二點第三點是我們品格教育出現了危機為什麼呢因為國文科去核心教材讓四維八德等傳統道德概念與學生是疏離的"},{"start":12596.664,"end":12596.884,"text":"公聽會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":12612.458,"end":12618.581,"text":"合在一起之後已經失去了一個道德的規準校園成為叢林師生之間的關係是緊張的那麼我們也看到他在社會上出現的是呢詐欺犯增加了28倍青少年犯罪增加50%"},{"start":12627.906,"end":12653.395,"text":"這些都已經告訴我們品格教育的問題那麼第四教育階級化造成貧窮世襲學習立場打壓有利於高資源家庭學歷又因為私立學校能夠維持基礎學科合理的時數加上校園相對安全所以成為家長的優先選擇但是這兩者皆製造了教育的階級化台灣教育公平性因此崩解我們曾經最知道的台灣的公立學校比私立學校好"},{"start":12654.215,"end":12655.956,"text":"5.誤導下一波課綱規劃人才優化對於科技台灣的競爭力非常重要,但是108課綱"},{"start":12673.831,"end":12694.207,"text":"重傷各科專業能力 恰恰於此背道而馳正部長 新任教育部長 正部長他宣稱要將數位學習人工智慧應用納入課綱但是如何妥善利用AI首要原則就是應用者必須具備鑑別增尾的能力也就是他有足夠的學科專業而我們現在108課綱就是讓你學生失去學科專業"},{"start":12698.87,"end":12700.411,"text":"108課綱基礎上下一波課程帶來的指揮是更大的災難第3 如何矯正108課綱的缺失"},{"start":12716.88,"end":12738.815,"text":"他多次提出了這個觀察報告指出108課綱是一群象牙塔的學者們以自身觀點構想一個無法落實的教育規劃一個不願負起責任的主管機關讓學生遭受這種不清不楚毫無方向的教育的官方反應是你們優秀讓我們看到108課綱帶來的成效這代表什麼呢代表了官方的蠻憨代表官方的傲慢"},{"start":12741.237,"end":12741.297,"text":"公聽會議：完整會議"},{"start":12761.51,"end":12763.531,"text":"高級中等教育及文化委員會：立法院第11會期教育及文化委員會：完整會議"},{"start":12787.919,"end":12804.837,"text":"規復基礎學科的必修時數事實上不難因為課綱的完整成績度不如久久課綱是非常清楚的而生涯規劃本土語言自主學習效益不高多元選修加深加廣選修校庭必修在編排與執行上都有困難所以教育部只要放下執念"},{"start":12805.478,"end":12805.498,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12824.626,"end":12826.708,"text":"教育回到教育 課程回歸學科本質修法建議 教給立委 增加實施後每年應該進行追蹤調查 並針對各科學歷進行前後測"},{"start":12845.842,"end":12846.062,"text":"高孟林理事長"},{"start":12871.742,"end":12894.291,"text":"主席以及各位關心高中階段教育的所有先進我想身為一個高中職專業的教師公會我們關注108課綱以及高中教育階段的議題已經拜會過立法院非常多次了今天也很榮幸再次來參加這樣的一個公聽會"},{"start":12896.479,"end":12920.873,"text":"那我剛剛聽了很多先進表達了很多意見但是我想奇怪今天這個討論提綱好像是參考用的沒關係合格言而治嘛那這個討論提綱第一個呢就是有關於高級中等教育的學費政策的探討今天大家都沒提到那我看有蠻多委員也都連署提案有關於這個高中要全面免學費"},{"start":12922.074,"end":12949.066,"text":"那基本上我們公會表達的立場是支持這樣的一個立場有兩點原因跟理由第一個就名稱特性而言既然稱之為12年國民基本教育那為什麼在有些師中要收學費因為名稱叫做國民基本教育不是嗎"},{"start":12950.425,"end":12977.925,"text":"那你說因為他的招生方式有些特殊或者是怎麼樣那請不要用國民基本教育的這樣一個名稱我覺得我們很多教育政策常常是民時不符那這個對我們教育是這個常常會產生掛羊頭賣狗肉的一個情況那既然稱之為國民基本教育你就不應該排除私校"},{"start":12978.871,"end":13007.656,"text":"但是不具中華民國國籍的當然要排除因為它叫做國民基本教育不具國籍的當然排除其他至於重讀私校我認為都應該要免學費第二個原因跟理由是政策邏輯的一致性大家知道私立的大專院校也都補助請問私立大專院校是國民基本教育嗎不是吧為什麼私立的大專院校要補助學費"},{"start":13008.956,"end":13022.902,"text":"高中卻要排除這個 排除那個 排除這個施政邏輯的一致性在哪裡請告訴我你說國家的財政非常好我們就要公私利益反轉等等"},{"start":13024.296,"end":13050.068,"text":"這些我都可以接受但是你排除施政邏輯的一致性有所欠缺這是我針對討論提綱第一個免學費政策我們是表達支持的那第二個有關於108課綱跟學習歷程檔案剛剛各位先進都講了非常多我也都非常贊成但是我覺得剛剛聽了很多我覺得頁岩支委員講得非常好"},{"start":13051.028,"end":13071.173,"text":"相關的檢討會不知道開了多少次我們公會在立法院也不知道拜訪多少次委員那我們常常知道教育部最喜歡講的一個名詞叫做滾動式修正常常喜歡滾動式修正那我們講了那麼多建議請問有沒有修正沒有有沒有看到滾動沒有還是不動如山"},{"start":13080.239,"end":13093.186,"text":"所以講了很多次沒啥用那我覺得啦108課綱的目標非常的理想這個我們都支持但是你要滾動式修正你就回來看嘛"},{"start":13094.249,"end":13109.967,"text":"我們知道108入學的學生在大學已經到大二了大一大二了我們直接調查108課綱下的這兩屆的學生他的休退轉學率跟舊課綱比起來是增加還是減少"},{"start":13112.918,"end":13141.095,"text":"如果修退轉學率是增加的那很明顯的108課綱的理念沒有落實嘛你開了那麼多選修對不對你學習歷程檔案你的目的是多元試探讓他能夠適性找到自己的方向結果呢入學之後修退轉學率是增加那是不是你要回來檢討這樣的一個課綱這個才叫做滾動式修正啊教育部非常喜歡用這個名詞啊我都不知道要滾到哪裡去啊"},{"start":13142.08,"end":13157.578,"text":"我覺得很奇怪那另外有關於學習歷程檔案跟高三下所謂的PDF檔上傳是同時並用的那我想請問大學端在審查的時候它的評價是否一致"},{"start":13160.188,"end":13176.908,"text":"如果我高三下上傳PDF檔跟我每個學期勾選學期歷程檔案在大學端教授或者是各系他們的評價是一致的那請問高中生我幹嘛每個學期要勾選麻煩死了我乾脆高三下我就上傳PDF就好啦"},{"start":13179.013,"end":13204.399,"text":"所以大學端針對PDF跟學習歷程他的評價是如何這個當然我們知道大學他說大學自主啦你不能夠強迫我們怎麼樣怎麼樣這個我們都尊重但是學習歷程的確他現實上有一些比如說檔案容量的限制上傳次數的限制還有上傳時間的限制等等造成非常多的不便跟麻煩"},{"start":13206.752,"end":13219.2,"text":"各位可能都會覺得這個什麼軍備競賽可是我跟各位講我們身為一個高中職專業工會你要知道有大概全國有過半數的學校跟學生是不重視這一塊的"},{"start":13221.067,"end":13240.801,"text":"為什麼 大家知道現在私校少子化私立學校只要什麼 你要考學測我管你有沒有上傳你只要活著我就收進來我還看什麼你學習歷程檔案大概只有頂大的會非常認真的看我在這邊非常現實的講出來另外有關於高中教育的相關的問題我再次強調有關於員額的問題"},{"start":13245.184,"end":13263.648,"text":"這個配套沒有到位啊這個教育部今天的報告第三頁他講說12年呢這個增加了國立高中學校啊1356個教師員額我再次講一下教育部常常喜歡做一些民時不符的工作這個只是把代理教師的員額把它轉正一個蘿蔔一個坑我們的訴求是增加坑教育部呢是把那個坑就給你蘿蔔全部填滿"},{"start":13272.748,"end":13275.811,"text":"謝謝我們的高理事長那最後我們請我們的立法委員范雲"},{"start":13306.257,"end":13315.52,"text":"好 昭偉好我們在座的老師代表同學代表還有家長代表還有校長還有我們教育部的張亮萬堅次長署長等大家應該是午安了那我想在這邊聽了大家很多的看法那也要先謝謝我們昭偉安排這個各界都非常關心非常焦慮也很多炮聲隆隆的這個108課綱那現在我們能做的事情那我想我自己"},{"start":13336.328,"end":13359.257,"text":"對這個108課綱的瞭解跟剛剛很多的發言一樣就是利益良善那他提供了更彈性自主的學習方式希望把能力變成是素養那適應高變的環境學習歷程希望呈現多元的學習軌跡但是我們也非常能夠同理第一線的焦慮就好像我們最後一位高理事長講的其實這個"},{"start":13361.118,"end":13361.519,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":13379.878,"end":13380.158,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13397.95,"end":13398.29,"text":"我自己﹖"},{"start":13426.326,"end":13426.506,"text":"教師備課需要時間,竟然讓教師開選修課"},{"start":13447.793,"end":13473.188,"text":"一門選修課就是新的課程你沒有讓他減教然後給他的平均終點時數都一樣的話你其實是沒有真正鼓勵到就是他來做這件事情可能只有少數熱情的老師能做那既然要他開選修課那教師超終點的狀況就會更嚴重那我們看到提供的資料就目前平均超中2到3節增到6節所以如何讓這個教師的"},{"start":13477.21,"end":13484.199,"text":"教學分量能夠降低這是要教育部有政策的因為56%的教師比過往新增兩到五種授課科目因為校長我們校長也在這就是那個就是我們很重要的那個高中的校長永春"},{"start":13494.571,"end":13494.691,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13516.401,"end":13528.368,"text":"教長有壓力 老師有壓力可是呢 那教師就會開始抱怨了嘛因為我 就是你要馬兒就是會跑又不給他炒吃喔所以如何降低教師的基本授課終點增補教師人力我覺得這個是非常重要的"},{"start":13533.271,"end":13557.964,"text":"還有偏鄉小校資源開不出來的時候那剛剛已經好像是學生還是教師還是家長代表那你就應該讓他跟旁邊的大學合作教育部要去協助他們去補足這個部分那甚至有社區大學裡面有一些被認證的好的課程是不是也能夠納入我覺得這是教育部責無旁貸應該要做的事情"},{"start":13558.604,"end":13569.001,"text":"特別是教師的負擔如何實質鼓勵到他們我想這個部分是要有政策否則增加教師人力這應該是教育部可以做的"},{"start":13570.709,"end":13599.004,"text":"其實很多人都擔心說弱勢的家長是不是不了解那是不是有錢有資源的家長軍備競賽找補習班雖然謝謝同學做的資料裡面看到是其實是只有10%可是各位知道10%你放大到尖端競爭的人就會深刻的感覺到競爭不公平那所以如何能夠讓弱勢的家長不了解那2020年的調查有77%的家長不了解素養"},{"start":13599.804,"end":13600.064,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13620.186,"end":13620.887,"text":"教育及文化委員會．"},{"start":13650.026,"end":13652.607,"text":"大學教授：立法院第11會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":13666.971,"end":13667.631,"text":"108課綱系統化 標準化"},{"start":13689.225,"end":13716.874,"text":"但是因為這個部分的不確定性的確造成了家長跟學生的焦慮那我們又知道教育部沒辦法管大學嘛 對不對你怎麼可能規定或是政策說大學應該要說明校系選材應該要這個備審跟書審是就是口試跟這個同一群人我覺得有這個難度可是既然我們要讓這個部分就是讓家長跟學生公開透明教育部應該想出一些政策工具如何"},{"start":13718.154,"end":13718.174,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13735.335,"end":13749.551,"text":"政策工具鼓勵學校透明化選材標準公開透明減少猜測減少資訊落差善用數位工具剛剛我們有委員說陪著小孩去聽說明這種家長有利於台北"},{"start":13750.552,"end":13754.596,"text":"東海大學有利於台中的家長如何利用數位的工具鼓勵線上座談不要讓學生覺得他只能去猜測大學選才標準熱音社、熱舞社就沒有人參加了以我們來講這都是leadership這些社團"},{"start":13769.591,"end":13790.764,"text":"其實資歷是重要的可是家長學生不知道所以我想這些部分如何能夠公開透明降低資訊落差讓大學主動公開做這些事情我想也是教育部在政治上可以做的那我相信那個張廖次長非常了解家長跟學生的第一線焦慮那可以一起來努力那謝謝昭緯讓我超時20秒謝謝"},{"start":13794.986,"end":13808.775,"text":"謝謝,我想謝謝所有的委員,然後是容許我,我們這邊有個旁聽者就是EDUS,是由台灣16名高中生和12名大學生組成的一個學生的團體,那他們這些團體呢,他們從今年4月發布了一部2023年版的108課綱的觀察報告,他們收集了819份來自高中技職學生的一個新生,那我們是不是允許給他們3分鐘的時間,"},{"start":13819.121,"end":13819.321,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13842.807,"end":13848.93,"text":"好,謝謝各位與會代表引用了很多EDU的課綱觀察報告的內容那我想今天這個時間我們就來談談學生應該希望有怎樣的教育那首先在學習歷程檔案上面其實我們認為施壓探索規劃是重要的那所以說我們更應該要去看到學生在學習歷程檔案上面可以得到什麼"},{"start":13863.837,"end":13863.857,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13880.707,"end":13898.034,"text":"在自主學習方面﹐我們認為﹐空間跟時間應該要還給學生﹐要給學生足夠的支持措施﹐並且要鼓勵學生去跳脫學科上面的學習﹐讓自主學習成為一種精神﹐並且要信任學生在多元選秀方面﹐我們認為城鄉議題應該要被在乎的﹐那這些鄉村的學校﹐應該要鼓勵他們善用網路的資源﹐來去跟大學端做對接﹐讓這些大學的選秀課﹐也能夠深入到天鄉的每一所高中"},{"start":13911.019,"end":13931.048,"text":"在118課綱以及未來的課綱改善應該要納入哲學教育以及情緒教育不僅可以去培養學生自我覺察的能力﹑內省能力並且也能夠提升學生的批判思考能力最後在考招方面我們認為我們必須要去肯認多元入學的重要性給予學生選擇權在多元入學上面是重要的並且我們更應該要擺脫紙筆測驗跳脫考試的框架那恢復聯考這件事情是錯的"},{"start":13937.918,"end":13948.021,"text":"最後在雙語政策以及本土語政策上面我們應該要思考要如何跟課綱來去做對接來去做串聯不應該是一個跌床駕屋的事情那未來在118課綱的規劃中要怎麼樣讓本土語言學有所用讓雙語政策能夠回歸英語文的學習我想這兩點是非常重要的"},{"start":13959.344,"end":13970.029,"text":"那在考照方面除了剛剛所提到的內容之外更應該要在育才以及選才上面有合宜的對接這樣的話學生的所學就能夠被考試所考我想這個對於學生教學現場是有辦法減輕焦慮的"},{"start":13974.537,"end":13978.282,"text":"最後一個法制上的建議那國家教育研究院作為課綱的一個研擬的單位他們應該要賦予行政法人的地位而不是作為教育部的三級機關我想這個對於在整個就是教育審議的主體性是非常重要的"},{"start":13990.237,"end":14018.255,"text":"那我想最後的30秒時間我想要強調一點是學生作為教育的主體是非常重要的但學生跟家長互為主體學生跟政府互為主體學生跟教師互為主體也都很重要所以說在課綱的審議過程中應該要去傾聽每一個利害關係人的聲音那也很謝謝在場的所有委員以及所有的與會代表都傾聽了學生的聲音那也希望未來這樣的一個溝通過程能夠持續的來走下去謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":14019.336,"end":14032.924,"text":"好,謝謝我們同學,非常的關心我們教育現場,也是第一份的同學,那我們現在專家學者還有委員都已經發言完畢,那我們現在是不是請教育部的張亮次長來對於我們今天的整個公聽會做出一個回應"},{"start":14035.233,"end":14052.358,"text":"好首先還是要感謝我們教育文化委員會舉辦了這次的公聽會讓我們今天聽到了非常多元的聲音其實這就可以看到其實真的是有各種不同那甚至意見不一樣的聲音但是這個都是非常寶貴對於108課綱實施過程的問題給我們回饋跟建議那其實整體而言108課綱還是在強調自發互動跟共好的理念那當然"},{"start":14063.842,"end":14084.22,"text":"在實施的這5年如何透過課程與教學專業支持系統教師增能跟媒合等方式來推動這個政策的目標其實非常非常的重要那剛才大家不管是大學的教授現場的老師或者學生或者是我們的立法委員也提出了很多意見其實因為時間的關係我也跟主席講說沒有辦法一一的來回應但是我們今天包括國教院的嚴副院長"},{"start":14090.666,"end":14113.363,"text":"還有我們國教署相關的其實我看他們剛才都非常認真的一一的記錄那所謂的滾動檢討一定是有在檢討那如何精進真的是知識體大也會跟大家好的討論那各種剛才大家提到說有各種的調查那沒有公佈的問題其實有很多也是有公佈不是沒有我就查了不少像2022剛才提到PISA"},{"start":14114.884,"end":14115.044,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14133.516,"end":14134.717,"text":"文言文、白話文的選材比例、歷史課綱的問題、自主學習的問題"},{"start":14153.834,"end":14153.974,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14172.819,"end":14172.839,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":14190.296,"end":14190.336,"text":"主席"},{"start":14214.306,"end":14218.988,"text":"好我們謝謝張亮次長那我想依據立法院職權行使法的第58條的規定我們也委員會應該在公聽會終結後的10天之內依照出席委員所提供的正反意見我們要提出公聽會的報告然後送交給我們本院的全體委員還有出席者根據我們第59條規定公聽會的報告作為審查該特定議案的一個參考"},{"start":14239.594,"end":14239.794,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":14261.027,"end":14261.527,"text":"謝謝各位 謝謝大家"},{"start":14344.296,"end":14369.931,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14399.957,"end":14400.38,"text":"MING PAO CANADA 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﹝討論事項二﹞審查厲動基準法第五十條條文修正草案等四案。決議本案令則期繼續審查。宣讀完畢。請問委員會上市議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處?沒有。議事錄確定。本日議程為審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具《老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案》案。二、委員馬文君等16人擬具《老人福利法"},{"start":1892.711,"end":1901.035,"text":"第三、委員王建豪等17人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。」案。三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案。」以上共計7案。"},{"start":1920.701,"end":1948.931,"text":"現在介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭之委員許宇甄委員林月琴委員介紹今天出席的官員衛生福利部呂建德政務司長社會及家庭署簡惠娟署長社會保險司陳真惠副司長"},{"start":1951.141,"end":1980.145,"text":"中央健康保險署李承華副署長法規會陳信成參事食品藥物管理署池蘭惠組長內政部國家公園署油氣管理組張順發組長農業部林業及自然保育署莊哲偉科長生物多樣性研究所楊耀龍助理研究員"},{"start":1982.964,"end":2008.369,"text":"交通部公共運輸及監理司王濟洲檢任記證杭政司楊博文檢任記證觀光署黃怡平組長經濟部國營事業管理司黃旭輝專門委員水利署李雅如科長國軍退出役官兵輔導委員會事業管理處楊文慧檢任記證"},{"start":2012.984,"end":2040.534,"text":"文化部綜合規劃司嚴榮鑫副司長行政院主計總處公務預算處廖玉琳專門委員教育部終身教育司紀賢陽專門委員好那我們現在請提案委員提案委員說明提案要職每位委員兩分鐘首先我們請徐宇甄委員說明並代表國民黨黨團一併說明"},{"start":2050.033,"end":2071.242,"text":"主席還有在場的各位同仁還有各位官員大家早目前中央政府僅對70歲以上的老人的這個中低戶中低收入戶提供健保的補助然而在台灣各縣市的老人健保費的補助制度卻不一致目前僅有六都跟基隆市有不同程度的一個健保費的補助"},{"start":2072.222,"end":2083.147,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次"},{"start":2097.393,"end":2126.639,"text":"而台北桃園景補助所得稅率未達百分之二十的老人而台中市跟台南高雄則補助所得稅率在5%以下的老人這樣不一致的標準使得老人們在不同的城市間享受到了不同的福利而這樣的差別待遇也嚴重了違背了憲法所保障的平等的原則那憲法也明文規定所有中華民國人民在法律上一律平等不應該是因為居住地的不同而有著不公平的待遇"},{"start":2127.099,"end":2142.757,"text":"而基於這樣的原則本席提出了增訂老人福利法第二十二條之一的提案並希望能夠通過這樣子的一個中央政府的統一補助我們的針對近一年申報的綜合所得稅未達百分之二十歲以上的這個65歲以上的這個"},{"start":2145.76,"end":2174.522,"text":"老者應繳納的健保費全額補助,這樣的政策也可以深圳的實現老人健保補助的公平,避免因為財政狀況不同而帶來不公平的一個待遇。國民黨團也提案修正了老人福利法第二十二條是比照臺北市跟桃園市的一個施政經驗,在所得稅率在百分之二十以下的老人65歲以上的老人由中央提供健保的全額補助。"},{"start":2175.824,"end":2177.207,"text":"以上是本期提案說明。謝謝。"},{"start":2195.179,"end":2219.939,"text":"謝謝主席老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案提案說明台灣在2018年就進入高齡社會老年人口迅速增長明年我們就會步入超高齡社會但我們針對長者的健保補助費用卻存在著明顯窮縣市與富縣市之間的不平等的狀況"},{"start":2220.86,"end":2224.382,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。厲如台北市、新北市、桃園市、台中市"},{"start":2237.087,"end":2252.694,"text":"檯南市、高雄市及基隆市對65歲長者提供的健保補助但其他的縣市地區就無法享受同樣的待遇這樣的差異導致了老年人福利保障的不公平"},{"start":2254.555,"end":2280.735,"text":"也違憲法第七條所揭示的國民平等原則老年人作為我們社會中的重要群體應該享有同等的福利與權利無論他們居住在哪一個地區然而財政問題永遠是窮縣市的痛但這個痛不能讓長者因此擁有不公平的待遇為了解決這一個問題本席提案由中央政府"},{"start":2281.115,"end":2283.838,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":2304.416,"end":2326.947,"text":"則同意補助能夠有效減輕地方政府的財政壓力本案的通過也將助於建立一個更加平等合理可持續的老人福利制度促進我們的社會穩定與和諧所以懇請各位委員審議並支持本提案以保障所有長者的基本權利實現我們對社會公平正義的承諾謝謝"},{"start":2329.328,"end":2334.052,"text":"好,謝謝張嘉郡委員的說明。接下來我們請陳昭之委員代表台灣民眾黨黨團說明。"},{"start":2342.141,"end":2365.556,"text":"謝謝主席。大家早。台灣民眾黨黨團對於2025年要邁入超高齡這個社會的議題十分的關注。因為隨著老人年口的增加還有平均移民的提高,老年人的這個醫療的這個負擔跟經濟的負擔是會越來越沉重。但是目前我們國家對老年人的健保補助的部分,因為各"},{"start":2366.497,"end":2395.305,"text":"各都或各縣市的財政狀態不一所以目前六個直轄市及部分縣市有不同的條件補助沒有一致性的政策措施那導致多數縣市無法提供相關的補助這在憲法上是一個違反憲法的平等原則因此臺灣民眾黨提案認為應該明定65歲以上近一年綜合所得稅未達申報標準或是未達20%以上者其健保費由中央主管"},{"start":2395.805,"end":2396.345,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":2411.771,"end":2425.923,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委"},{"start":2434.089,"end":2453.258,"text":"設施抗日場所時也可以享有相關的優待。敬請各位委員同仁能夠支持這樣的修法提案。謝謝。好,謝謝陳昭志委員的說明。剛剛有地震,大家小心。現在還在搖嗎?是喔?好。好,手機沒有響應該"},{"start":2463.803,"end":2468.268,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2483.625,"end":2499.795,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好今天大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開第19次的全體委員會議審查老人福利法條文修正草案"},{"start":2500.495,"end":2514.025,"text":"本部呃呈邀列席報告。敬請各位委員不吝指教。那麼有關委員啊及黨團建議修正老人福利法第二十二條增訂第二十二條之一本部意見如下第一為協助"},{"start":2516.087,"end":2537.525,"text":"經濟困難及減輕老人繳納保險費之負擔以老人參加全民健康保險無力負擔費用補助辦法第五條規定已經以排付優先照顧弱勢為原則由本部全額補助中低收入70歲以上老人之保險費所以這一點我們事實上在全國已經是一致平等的這一個補助"},{"start":2538.339,"end":2555.194,"text":"第二有關委員及黨團建議中央主管機關針對最近一年綜合所得稅綜合所得總額合計未達申報標準或綜合所得稅稅率未達百分之二十至老人全額補助參加全民健康保險制保險費"},{"start":2556.315,"end":2575.309,"text":"獲分負擔費用或保險給付為涵蓋之醫療費用,橫著我國全民健康保險是透過全民納保以發揮自助互助、風險分擔以及基本保障之功能,簡單來說就是各取所需,但是也要各盡所能。"},{"start":2577.93,"end":2592.92,"text":"而且我國已進入高齡社會推估115年將邁入超高齡社會青壯年人口負擔已日益加重保費制度除基於量能負擔的精神之外事實上我們也應該要來考量世代公平的問題"},{"start":2593.76,"end":2622.305,"text":"第三現行老人如有部分負擔費用或保險給付為涵蓋之醫療費用無力負擔情形各縣市政府已經頁抑現行規定予以補助而且提供老人的適切服務原本案建議維持原條文至於有關於委員及黨團建議修正老人福利法第二十五條本部意見如下有關條文修正訂訂老人應需人陪伴者其必要陪伴者一人"},{"start":2623.265,"end":2639.077,"text":"與達成國內大眾運輸工具及進行康樂場所、文教設施得享有與老人同等之優待一節,考量大眾運輸風景區。康樂場所之精靈是以自給自足為原則,並朝永續創造財政收益為目標。"},{"start":2642.099,"end":2657.669,"text":"而鑒於老人人口快速增加,倘立法再擴大優惠範圍或票價調整,涉及跨部會、各地方政府財政支出、補貼機制與民間業者營運事宜,考量世代正義原則,尚需通盤審慎研議,本案建議維持現行條文。"},{"start":2661.141,"end":2680.081,"text":"各位委員、各位同仁我國將於一一五年邁入超高齡社會而行政院也將於一一零年九月二十七日修正合訂高齡社會白皮書另於一一一年十一月十日合訂因應超高齡社會對策方案一一二至一一五年"},{"start":2680.862,"end":2702.243,"text":"而一、三年度我們預計將投入250億元推動345項重要工作透過公司協力跨域合作來積極回應高齡者社會的高齡者的多元需求換句話說我們強調錢還是必須要花在刀口上面我們這邊也會全力來推動以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2704.67,"end":2731.347,"text":"好謝謝呂次長的說明有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下選告一、本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘依往例審查法案不處理臨時提案"},{"start":2732.137,"end":2734.36,"text":"現在請登記第一位陳昭芝委員發言。"},{"start":2752.602,"end":2767.154,"text":"次長早。這是我們第一次的詢答。前次在研討會有交換過名片。恭喜次長。辛苦你。我想請教次長,您知道6月15號是什麼日子嗎?6月15號是什麼日子嗎?"},{"start":2775.417,"end":2797.745,"text":"委員馬文君等16人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。׳ 聯合國從2011年開始,就訂定每年的6月15號是世界老人虐待的警醒日。我們非常感謝社團法人臺灣防暴聯盟響應這個活動,一直在進行相關的倡議。每個家庭每個"},{"start":2799.065,"end":2816.373,"text":"五、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利法增訂第二十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利法第二十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利法增訂第二十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利法增訂第二十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利法增訂第二十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利法增訂第二十"},{"start":2824.517,"end":2851.44,"text":"是是,謝謝次長。對,疏忽照顧身體照顧那經濟虐待那精神虐待這個部分確實是最容易被忽視的可能是精神虐待因為照顧者可能是因為長期照顧之後的身心懼乏、懼疲那入帽跟吼叫就是最常發生在長輩身上的一種精神虐待那所謂的疏忽型的照顧其實蠻多元的蠻多元的包括沒有提供這個適當的飲食衣物還有沒有去幫助維持"},{"start":2857.365,"end":2877.541,"text":"議員請看這個圖我們可以看到65歲以上老人受到家庭暴力的這個通報案件近年來其實一直是持續上升老人受虐的問題加劇那其中下面是以女性受暴比例較高想問市長根據您的經驗發生在老人虐待的原因主要是什麼呢?"},{"start":2878.521,"end":2899.07,"text":"報告委員,其實過去我也在臺中擔任過社會局長,那其實就是主要加防中心的業務。我的瞭解主要大概就是親屬間的相處,就是剛剛委員說像有關照顧上的問題,還有一些財務問題,照顧的議題,有時候也會合併有一些這一個精神疾病或者藥酒飲的這一個情況。"},{"start":2901.428,"end":2913.918,"text":"謝謝次長應該包括還有家暴死啦缺乏社會的支持社會的支持我想這個部分也很重要那再請問次長您覺得施暴者以哪一個群體占比最高"},{"start":2914.674,"end":2937.161,"text":"一般來說大概還是這一個家庭成員是家庭成員齁其中大概我們直系血親還有悲親屬齁是確實就是屬於家庭內的我們知道的資料也是如此齁這個部分還是直系這個悲親屬這個戰略是最高的去年接獲老人這個保護案件大概有兩萬多件那其中有一半是直系悲親屬施虐者"},{"start":2937.741,"end":2962.429,"text":"大概佔了55%另外其次再來就是親密關係的對象跟伴侶施暴大概是26百分比那其他家庭成員是14那非家庭成員大概是佔5%所以這個一跟我們大眾的想像有時候像造福員、外籍刊物比較容易施暴的情況是有很大的差異那請問市長您知道受虐有哪些通報的管道嗎?"},{"start":2963.209,"end":2978.427,"text":"包括委員我們一般通常都可以有兩個方式啦就是電話的話就113的通報專線那或者呢網路人員的話我們可以透過我們本部關懷一起來的網路通報平台來進行這個通報就是兩個這個管道好是好好謝謝次長那"},{"start":2979.448,"end":2999.732,"text":"除了11310可以通報我們現在是剛剛次長也提到有關懷這個一起來在網站可以做線上的通報不過就算有這些通報的管道我想有幾個原因可以討論第一個長者可能不見得有能力去使用這個線上通報第二個就是常受到傳統的觀念所影響他認為這是家醜不可外揚"},{"start":3004.713,"end":3008.656,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":3031.836,"end":3045.83,"text":"所以也造成許多老人虐待案件沒有被通報成為社福機關沒有辦法去介入進行協助的一個黑數這個是存在那請問次長任務會不會做如何的改善呢在這些狀況"},{"start":3046.411,"end":3066.312,"text":"是,報告委員,我們一般我們大概就是會有會根據個案的需求跟風險來提供或連結一些像庇護安置,或者緊急就醫、長照服務、經濟輔助、法律輔助、就業服務,還有其實最重要事實上是有一個所謂加害者處遇計畫,這事實上是一個多元的一個服務方案。"},{"start":3067.433,"end":3094.766,"text":"市長認為這個是有效益的嗎?因為剛剛我們看到他整個的通報案數是當然很多是可能沒有通報但是我們想通報案數再增加的話未通報的其實相對也是高的所以這些所以我們其實我們也在這個保護師其實也會協調各地方政府在有關於這個老人虐待這個部分我們在廣為來進行相關的宣傳來提醒社會各界來注意這個問題"},{"start":3096.005,"end":3114.64,"text":"對,既然超高齡社會已經到了嘛,那衍生的經濟問題等等剛剛的問題,所以我想這個部分這個社會這個次長要多辛苦來處理這個部分,但有關我們回到這個相關的辦法,就是我們的老人保護通報及處理辦法規定了醫事人員跟社工"},{"start":3115.782,"end":3128.161,"text":"關工作者發現疑似老人這個虐待案的時候應該要在24小時內通報但是這個辦法並沒有規定直轄市或縣市主管機關接獲通報以後要進行訪視調查的這個期限"},{"start":3131.195,"end":3149.787,"text":"那這樣的機制可能讓受命令老人即便通報了可是他沒有得到及時的協助所以想請問次長你覺得這個應該如何來進行改善呢包括委員我們為了要落實這個部分其實我們會來透過剛剛委員剛剛所說的我們會推廣老人忽略"},{"start":3150.607,"end":3164.651,"text":"檢視工具還有服務分流指引來趕快及早發現然後來發現社區當中老人失誤割換那其實這裡面我們也會結合其實長照那邊其實我們照服員等等這些他如果說有發現類似的一個情況的話趕快來進行通報來強調長照跟我們退家"},{"start":3168.012,"end":3168.492,"text":"議員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":3186.559,"end":3211.175,"text":"我想市長沒就任前也知道一連串的這個兒女重大育兒事件他其實當中也有發生很多這個相關的機構橫向的聯繫直向聯繫都沒有去做所以後來整個社會安全網就網不住這個這些孩子所以這個當然我們沒有辦法預取老人虐待案是不是可能也是一個類似的狀況那這個部分是要持續的去做改善沒錯"},{"start":3212.176,"end":3240.906,"text":"至少近年來社會相關部會就有在推動所謂的在地老化等政策那也成立了很多社區照顧關懷據點本席很肯定這樣的一個做法但是我認為還是有進步的空間啦例如免付費的這個老人諮詢服務專線很長的耶0800228585我覺得利益良善但是大部分國民可能不知道不要說這個宣傳的力道還是可以再大一點而且如果可能改成四個字通報是更好啦"},{"start":3241.206,"end":3245.489,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3279.147,"end":3282.749,"text":"而有請我們的旅次。好請次長。"},{"start":3294.95,"end":3310.708,"text":"委員長因為我常年都在從事青少年的服務工作那也比較關注於我們年輕人的生活狀況那109年我們台灣的人口已經事實上是呈現負成長的趨勢"},{"start":3313.871,"end":3340.099,"text":"老人人口持續在成長大概2050年大概就會達到高峰從這表格裡邊可以去預估到就是我們大概到2028年的一個時間點大概15到64歲的勞動人口會降到67%到時候年輕人大概就會覺得生活非常的壓力非常大因為15到64"},{"start":3341.099,"end":3356.945,"text":"三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12�"},{"start":3370.576,"end":3371.858,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":3392.978,"end":3413.267,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案»案。netesi, 臺灣的社會福利政策制定的概念看起來好像是只要把老人照顧好那就等於有好的社會福利"},{"start":3413.507,"end":3434.385,"text":"委員馬文君等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案 案件 、老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案 案件 、老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案 案件 、老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案 案件 、老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案 案件 、老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案 案件 、老人福利法第二十五條條條文修正草案案 案件 、老人福利法第二十五條條條文修正草案案 案件 、老人福利法第二十五條條條文修正草案案 案件 、老"},{"start":3440.811,"end":3452.794,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案 案 、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案 案 、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案 案 、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案 案 、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案案 案 、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案案 案 、委員張嘉郡等20人"},{"start":3468.958,"end":3472.76,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案 案 》案。"},{"start":3493.248,"end":3517.385,"text":"現在就是說整個優先順序上來說陳副委員剛剛所秀的我們現在目前似乎就是這個部分我想可能在比例上我想可以來做一些考量對因為我長期在服務青少年的時候他們覺得整個社會到底對他們能不能很公平的去看待因為在有限的資源分配上大家比較想到的是在"},{"start":3517.785,"end":3518.526,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":3537.233,"end":3556.691,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆"},{"start":3563.988,"end":3589.862,"text":"是否正義的問題?是,非常感謝委員。其實我們現在目前如果說國家我們用國家經濟我想我相信一定會越來越好但是現在就是說在這一個這個餅就這麼大嘛那我想就是說確實在整個優先順序上來說本部的一個基本的一個理念其實基本上還是我們根據賴清德總統他所提出的社會投資所以我們現在目前就是說我們是期待"},{"start":3590.202,"end":3592.364,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案 》案。"},{"start":3615.321,"end":3633.703,"text":"來這一個因為你服務的話其實也創造更多的就業機會出來我跟委員報告長照2.0以長照2.0為例我們從一開始1.0的時候照顧服務員只有兩萬到目前為止已經成長到將近快九萬兩千那麼原先的薪資從原先只是兩萬九目前已經提高到三萬八"},{"start":3634.324,"end":3634.424,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":3654.855,"end":3667.023,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案»案。adequate to the national security and social security of the country, and the national security and social security of the country."},{"start":3683.955,"end":3708.988,"text":"已經高過於我們的社會救助跟社會福利項目的24人這就是我們為什麼會擔憂的所以請問一下從民國84年政府就針對70歲以上的中低收入老人提供健保的保費全額補助針對65歲到69歲由地方的開辦的福利政策來支應現今中央的政策跟多數的地方政府大家都有一些排富設計"},{"start":3710.009,"end":3710.83,"text":"二、委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":3731.092,"end":3758.121,"text":"是,報告委員,其實陳副委員剛剛所說的,我們現在其實我們在這個中央的部分,針對70歲以上低收以及中低收,我們都已經有補助,那這個部分的話,我們大概是10億。那麼65到69歲的話,這是根據各地方政府,他們現在,他們目前的財力,他們個別都有一些相關的措施,但是我還是必須要強調就是說,我們錢真的還是要用在刀口上,那這一個部分真的有限的資源,我們是不是能夠有一些最好的運用。"},{"start":3758.621,"end":3782.962,"text":"如果不排付的話,中央加地方一年要支出多少錢?如果不排付的話,我們現在目前的估算,現在目前是354億。那預估到這個2049,這個部分的數字可能會提高到691億。隨著人口老化的程度,那逐年又要增加多少費用的比例?"},{"start":3783.542,"end":3810.192,"text":"包括我因為每一年我們的這一個長輩每年是以這個20萬的速度在成長所以這個確實整個這一個財政上來說真的是會必須要省省來應該考慮所以這邊有一個具體建議整個福利支出可能要考慮到世代增益因為大餅就是只有這樣所以支出項目也要避免過度集中還有真的要珍惜資源因為能使用資源是有限的時候可能要考慮排富那所以"},{"start":3811.192,"end":3811.492,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。"},{"start":3840.778,"end":3865.123,"text":"謝謝主席那請我們的次長好請次長次長你好喔次長想要請問喔再生醫療法即將在院會三讀通過次長你知道嗎知道你知道喔那在這個禮拜二院會的時候院會也發生一個突發事件喔就是這個邱義營委員打了羅志強委員一巴掌喔"},{"start":3865.714,"end":3878.93,"text":"那這個部分呢其實就跟這個再生醫療通過有關係了因為他們在可能在吵的就是這件事那我也想要問一下次長請問你對於這樣的救命法案被通過你有什麼看法"},{"start":3880.458,"end":3904.003,"text":"非常感謝委員對於本案的一個關心我想再生醫療法要維護確實很多很多患者的這個權利那麼過去在過去這段時間的很多委員其實也包括邱益英委員等等許多委員都努力的來推動那事實上站在本部立場站在國際民生的立場我們也希望能夠來加速來推動是很好謝謝"},{"start":3905.023,"end":3931.917,"text":"那我相信所有的人都樂見再生醫療法被通過我想這個應該次長您也同意吧那這也是為什麼週二院會表決的時候是否延長會議的時候以101票的高票通過那出現這次很多難得的朝野攻勢喔可是現在可以看到新聞和社群卻不斷造謠說在野黨為了通過國會改革法案要擋下再生醫療法的三讀程序次長你認為有這回事嗎"},{"start":3933.017,"end":3956.99,"text":"包括委員我們相信其實委員們應該都是在全力來支持那其實確實就像我剛剛說就是也包括邱委員在內我想我們都來一起來努力來推動所以換言之就是藍綠白的委員的同意研會也就是希望能夠在10縣內競速通過那也兼顧這個國會改革法案跟這個再生醫療法的三讀"},{"start":3958.348,"end":3980.318,"text":"所以下午三點的時候反而是就已經有提出了這個散會動議那如果散會動議通過的話是不是才會讓這個醫療法的三讀通過的法案被延後呢你認為是不是因為當天下午三點的時候有提散會動議如果真的散會動議成功的話那是不是會延後到我們再生醫療法的三讀"},{"start":3981.44,"end":4008.797,"text":"我們其實有關議程的部分我們完全都尊重那個大院的這一個程序。好,不過沒關係,事實上其實再生醫療法並不是本屆才納入這個立法審議而是10年前就已經開始被提出來討論而且並且當時其實行政院已經有將版本送到我們立法院來審議那未還委員會也是不斷地排審那送出委員後也經過朝野協商那個黨團協商但最後還是沒有通過"},{"start":4009.958,"end":4038.607,"text":"次長這一次的會期其實從2月1號開議至今大概是120天那120天裡面也包含所有的假期農曆七天、228啦或是這個復幼節兩天跟每週的六日所以實際上班天數大概是79天那再生雙法在下週三預計要三讀那其實八十幾天完成兩部法律的三讀程序其實應該算是蠻快的立法速度對不對次長是吧"},{"start":4039.247,"end":4062.949,"text":"是,算蠻快的首先真的是辛苦委員這個為了民眾的利益在發聲那我想我們站在本部的立場就是誠如委員剛剛所說的這個已經我們討論10年那這個事實上是對於很多民眾他們也大概都是希望趕快來通過那我們本部的立場我們也期待趕快來新立"},{"start":4065.251,"end":4091.594,"text":"所以我想八十幾天完成這個兩個法案的三讀通過應該不算是拖延啦在這個會期裡面所以再來我剛剛有提到再生醫療法其實看到我們這個powerpoint首次在立法院被討論以來已經超過十年了2019年的時候首度要拼三讀立法甚至那個時候朝野的立委大概藍綠的委員都有共識卻因為時任的立委邱太元"},{"start":4092.662,"end":4096.295,"text":"委員強力的杯葛而未能通過。請問次長知道嗎?"},{"start":4098.529,"end":4124.578,"text":"包括委員我想應該所有的委員大家都覺得這應該是非常重要所以我想我們應該委員們都好那我們來看到這張powerpoint2020年換到這個第10屆納入優先法案那也打算盡快通過沒想到當時的邱太元委員時任執政黨的立委居然提出一個自己的版本跟這個院版來互槓最後又導致法案無疾而終"},{"start":4125.678,"end":4150.698,"text":"最有趣的是當時的這個邱委員也是現在的邱部長堅持這個再生醫療製劑應該要改為製品以至於當時通常被尋的這些食藥署當時的食藥署署長吳秀美直接說這會導致再生醫療製品的主管機關變成了經濟部也就是非藥品而是商品層次所以才會變成改由經濟部主管請問次長認為這樣合理嗎?"},{"start":4152.621,"end":4170.464,"text":"八、委員我相信所有的委員一定都是希望就是說這個法案是好我知道你剛剛說過很多次了好沒關係確實是這樣我想好我懂我懂好那我直接再繼續講2023年的第10屆看到我們這個跑跑朋友2023年的第10屆的時候那個會期看起來是最有機會拼這個三獨的末班車"},{"start":4173.127,"end":4188.079,"text":"當時發生了什麼事?發生了包含邱部長跟現任邱部長也是當時的邱委員跟林靜怡委員也是現在的次長在內的執政黨立委聯手炮轟行政機關的奇觀最終法案依然未能通過"},{"start":4189.454,"end":4202.38,"text":"所以從上述來看你認為過去十年當時的邱立委、林委員就是現在的邱部長跟林次長的立場是不是都站在反對再生醫療法通過的那一邊?"},{"start":4203.619,"end":4227.714,"text":"包括委員我覺得我們共同的目標都是一致但是或許方法上面大家有一些不一樣但是我想大家都是為了我們再生醫療還有我們所有病患還有民眾的權利好謝謝次長因為我去爬書一下資料整理一下所以這些過往的事實被本席找到了直接證明這個過往的邱太元立委現在的邱太元部長跟林靜怡委員現在的林靜怡次長的立場"},{"start":4228.915,"end":4245.305,"text":"則是導致過去十年來再生醫療法停滯不前的主因。所以我在這裡也想要跟這個邱毅英委員說其實看到這十年來大家都很辛苦沒有錯尤其是邱委員也很努力喔可是你當天要打的人應該是邱委員邱泰源委員跟林靜穎委員吧"},{"start":4245.965,"end":4268.385,"text":"那老實說這次的次長對自己長官的立場阿和他的過去的言行要教教你評價實在是太苛刻了阿所以為什麼我現在要問這個題目就是要來討論想要來問這個邱部長跟接下來的林次長對於這件事情的態度是什麼那找你回答是為難你但是我還是希望等他們回來的時候我會再對他們提出質詢阿那再來"},{"start":4271.028,"end":4291.382,"text":"這次在立法院附近的陳抗大概分了四場那每天都到12點我想這個民主的集會遊行我們都尊重但這次我想音量真的是太誇張到入夜還在吵讓人根本沒辦法休息即便是一項很有耐心的護理師也不得不在網路上抱怨你可以看到我們的powerpoint"},{"start":4291.542,"end":4303.59,"text":"那這個臺大醫院的院長也表示他還表示說期待抗議者可以互相尊重能夠自我控制降低營量不要影響到看診及住院病童的就醫權利"},{"start":4305.137,"end":4332.399,"text":"所以我想要請問次長你覺得這次是不是真的有炒到整體病房的安寧跟影響病患的權益?非常感謝委員對本案的關心那這個部分我們當然就是說就是說人民的集會結社還有這一個整個我們病患的這個部長你覺得有沒有影響到他們的權益?那因為這是屬於台北市政府的權責這是屬於台北市政府的權責那我們事實上也積極的協調市府屬於他的權責可是醫院歸你們衛福不管不是嗎?"},{"start":4333.32,"end":4356.814,"text":"你覺得有沒有吵到這個病患的權益?這個是臺大醫院是教育部那邊那這個病患的權益有沒有給你們管?現在就是說這裡面當然就是說有一些權責分工嘛我想大家我們都希望對於這個民眾就是能夠兼顧這一個這個病患還有這個權益的利益那所以你也希望要兼顧病患的權益嘛對不對?您的態度應該是這樣"},{"start":4357.745,"end":4379.371,"text":"結果這個事件經過媒體曝光後上網抱怨的這些護士跟病人反而被出征而且被指責很吵的樂團還說要送病童們免費去看他們的演唱會你可以看到這裡黑色的這一段市長你知道他們演唱會的名稱叫什麼嗎?不知道?好那你看看這個文件喔"},{"start":4380.97,"end":4404.002,"text":"這個文宣的內容叫做《今夜台北市的邊緣Final墓地將進行一場深入骨髓的末日盛宴。一曲絕望的晚歌,我們將在城市的廢葉上刻上最後的秘密。部長我告訴你這場演唱會的名稱居然叫做死亡通告。"},{"start":4405.728,"end":4426.686,"text":"他要邀請這些病患和病童去看他們的演唱會,這樣演唱會叫死亡通告。我想問這是什麼黑色幽默?看到這個內容,你覺得病童他們的爸媽跟他的爺爺奶奶是什麼感想?他是在嘲諷這些兒童嗎?次長你能夠接受這樣的內容嗎?你覺得他是道歉還是詛咒?報告委員我想這個"},{"start":4432.799,"end":4458.954,"text":"就是我想是有一些宣傳的一些方式那我想這個裡面應該我們都有同理心我們也希望就是誠如剛剛說的我們希望兼顧各方的一個權益很好 謝謝次長所以剛剛講到同理心所以我剛剛有提到衛福部身為醫院的主管機關能不能代表全體的醫療機構尤其是這個脆弱的臺大兒童醫院病童"},{"start":4459.634,"end":4469.919,"text":"未來在立院成抗的時候跟警政署協調,能夠過十點以後控制營量,以照顧病患的身心的健康。可以嗎?你可以答應本席嗎?"},{"start":4473.942,"end":4497.306,"text":"其實這個部分其實主要還是因為因為這一個相關的部分還是那個臺北市政府的權責我想基於這個這一個權責分工我想我們這邊也會來跟臺北市政府這邊來來轉請他們來妥善來處理謝謝好好那謝謝本席沒有謝謝廖委員謝謝好謝謝廖偉強委員的資訊接下來我們請黃秀芳委員資訊"},{"start":4508.359,"end":4516.232,"text":"謝謝,我們請呂次長還有教育部,今天教育部,終身教育師專委。好,我們請呂次長跟紀專委。"},{"start":4523.728,"end":4528.194,"text":"謝謝次長剛剛廖委員講的我們這個再生醫療雙法當然是歷經了這個10年將近10年的這個時間從第9屆、第10屆、第11屆那當然就是在第9屆跟第11屆"},{"start":4540.188,"end":4556.974,"text":"第十屆這兩屆民進黨即便在這個立法院是過半那因為委員在未完委員會委員或者是其他委員會委員都有不同的意見那即便是民進黨的立委是過半可是我們也沒有強度關山"},{"start":4558.074,"end":4587.128,"text":"則是要聽取各方的意見那將最好的這個方式最好的這個這個條例能夠進到這個委員會大家再充分的討論所以在5月初的本席在當章委的時候我就把它排入我們委員會的這個議程那也充分的討論用了兩天的時間將再生醫療雙法充分的討論之後送出委員會那原本是希望能夠建樹在大會能夠"},{"start":4587.808,"end":4607.983,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案 通過,那非常的可惜,就是沒辦法在最短的時間來二三讀。因為我覺得說這個再生醫療雙法可以在委員會充分的討論之後,完全都沒有保留,就是條文都完全沒有保留,也不需要送協商,那全部都送到大會要二三讀。"},{"start":4608.703,"end":4608.823,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":4626.749,"end":4627.33,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":4644.799,"end":4666.071,"text":"因為這個老人福利法的部分其實牽涉的蠻多的不論是主管、業管的這個衛福部那教育部甚至我看到交通部那還有內政部都會受到影響那我想請教就是說教育部在這個今天的這個報告當中第一項有寫到說有助於營造敬老、親老的高齡友善環境"},{"start":4666.711,"end":4688.226,"text":"adequare他們原本是寫說尊重委員的提案然後那第二個又寫到說其與條文教育部尊重衛生福利部的意見那我想請教就是說到底教育部的這個說法跟主管機關的意見不同那又說自己尊重主管機關的意見那到底教育部到底是什麼意見是不是可以先請教育部說明"},{"start":4689.155,"end":4714.745,"text":"好,委員好。那委員報告說是因為今天要討論的這個法案條文是包括第二十二條還有第二十五條那本部主要是先針對第二十五條的部分然後我們經過評估是有助於營造敬老的高齡友善環境所以尊重委員提案但是我們後面是表示說至於其他像第二十二條的部分因為比較沒有涉及本部的業務所以我們就尊重衛福部的意見"},{"start":4717.767,"end":4733.937,"text":"一般的民眾,如果說是委員的意見、委員的條文有關於進入康樂場所或參觀文教設施,陪伴者享有跟老人同等的優待"},{"start":4735.638,"end":4754.763,"text":"則,教育部認為有助於青老、近老的友善環境。請問教育部,這樣的措施需要花費多少的公務支出?有的可能是私人的場所,可能是私人的那種藝文場所。你們有去算過業者需要多少的補貼嗎?如果這個法條通過之後。"},{"start":4757.723,"end":4784.333,"text":"向委員報告我們這部分目前的確是沒有辦法在短時間之內去進行一個的估算那因為這個文教設施可能也有涉及到其他部會的設施那只是說我們在政策面上面來看的話因為目前的草案條文是針對說如果老人有需要陪伴者的話才有優惠所以我們是在整個所以你們自己本身也沒有去去估算到底65歲的這個老人"},{"start":4786.294,"end":4806.343,"text":"而他需要的陪伴加65歲的老人然後再加上要陪伴的這樣子如果是同等優惠的話那你們大約要支出多少的這個公務預算或者是私人也許是你們管的藝文場所好這些業者到底要補貼多少你們到底到底有沒有一個概念有沒有一個概算"},{"start":4807.475,"end":4830.729,"text":"跟委員報告,我們目前並沒有做這樣子一個概算,但是我們在這個評估上面來講的話,我們先就我們教育部所主管的國立的社交機構去做評估。好,那你們針對你們國立的這個,你們所俠管的這些國立的這些場所,如果是全面免費的話,到底會支出多少?"},{"start":4831.724,"end":4860.341,"text":"現在委員報告因為國立的那個管所的門票收入其實它是規費的一種所以如果說是免費去提供的話其實是減收那個規費並不是額外的一個支出那當然我們會去評估就是說目前的社交機構目前參觀的民眾概估上面來看的話最主要是那個就是學生、兒童然後以及家長那老年人的部分可能在比例上來講不會佔那麼大的一個部分"},{"start":4860.481,"end":4884.628,"text":"現在是老人還要加上一個陪伴者嗎?是。對啊。所以這樣子到底是要付多少?你們目前沒有一個概算嗎?對,可能要先去統計就是說以往就是去道館參觀至於老年人的部分是多少人。好,那接下來我是不是可以請內政部?內政部是誰?來,上來一下。"},{"start":4891.866,"end":4915.414,"text":"請問內政部的張順發組長這邊我想主長我想請教就是內政部所管轄的這個國家公園所屬的各國家公園管理這個景點那還有可能就是國家公園所屬的這個國家公園或者是地方的共造產那如果像這樣子"},{"start":4916.774,"end":4934.608,"text":"條例通過之後除了65歲以上的老人免費那陪伴者這樣到底是你們本身要支付多少或者是你們有沒有去想到地方的公共造產他們也許會減收或者是需要補貼多少這個你們有去做一個統計嗎?"},{"start":4936.108,"end":4963.22,"text":"剛委員報告就是說其實目前華公園只有四個地方是有收費的那主要的公共造產是在墾丁華公園那包含那個俄安比這邊所以依我們目前的這個資料來看的話雖然沒有實際的一個統計數據不過一般來說老人的這個敬老票的部分大概會佔我們三分之一以上"},{"start":4964.36,"end":4964.68,"text":"三分之一左右"},{"start":4988.812,"end":5007.487,"text":"要看實際的一個因為每年的那個遊客人數其實不一定是對所以你們也沒有一個大約統計是那是不是說你們可以將你們所有的資料就我今天所問的你們這個資料這個可能在一個禮拜或兩個禮拜內是不是可以提供"},{"start":5008.285,"end":5034.943,"text":"好,我們回去來統計好,那接下來我想請教呂次我想請教就是說五月份是報稅月我相信很多在座各位大家都有報稅那我們看到這個老人福利法通過之後這個委員的版本就是說這個稅率未達百分之二十的這個老人健保全額補助那我想請教就是"},{"start":5035.583,"end":5059.776,"text":"而這個目前的這個青壯年每月的月薪平均可能就是差不多四萬五萬的人這個占多數那有可能一個現象就是說收入如果照這樣子這個老人福利法如果照委員的版本就是說百分之二十未達百分之二十可能一個概念就是說他可能月領十萬塊的老人"},{"start":5060.256,"end":5066.218,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5088.584,"end":5099.076,"text":"非常感謝委員的意見確實就是說如果按照現在目前這個版本的話如果稅率20%我跟各位報告因為最近大家都在報稅嘛這個擬具是年所得在121萬到242萬"},{"start":5104.141,"end":5120.192,"text":"則這一個擬具。那我們平均起來我們取那個平均值的話對不對我們換算起來一個月大概這樣的一個長輩一個月可能他是12萬那我們現在我跟委員報告一下我們現在目前的年輕人的您剛說平均那如果說以中位所得"},{"start":5120.672,"end":5121.212,"text":"三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":5139.44,"end":5139.52,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":5163.966,"end":5191.937,"text":"次長我是不是可以要求就是說其實我們針對65歲以上的低收、中低收或者是需要照顧的這些老人也許他沒有中低收或是沒有低收可是他確實是邊緣戶可能就是他也沒有達到那個標準那我覺得說這些人是更需要政府的幫忙所以我是認為未來針對這部分我覺得你們應該要去好好的去思考一下"},{"start":5192.817,"end":5193.178,"text":" bicylson 沒錯。"},{"start":5213.137,"end":5239.944,"text":"所以我們當然是希望福利越來越好可是我們也希望說年輕人他也能夠不要有那種感覺好像他被剝奪的那種感覺所以我覺得如果今天我們要照顧一個長輩的話我覺得應該如果以他真正需要低收、中低收甚至邊緣戶的這一種我覺得我們把他照顧好這個我覺得是政府理所當然的"},{"start":5240.464,"end":5260.612,"text":"那針對這部分我希望說你們可能還要再好好的去思考一下,好不好?我這麼簡單回應一下,就是說剛剛委員剛剛說的部分,我們社會救助法這邊也會來做相應的一個調整。確實這個部分,我們就是說您剛剛說邊緣戶的部分,我們是不是也能夠來把它一一照顧。但是錢真的要花在刀口上,而且要幫助最需要幫助的長輩。謝謝。好,謝謝。我們有請這個王玉明委員。"},{"start":5277.978,"end":5281.699,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們是不是有請呂次長。呂次長好。呂次長先恭喜你,擔任這個專務次長。那今天討論有關於老人福利法的這個修正。剛剛也聽到你很多的想法跟意見。但是我要先讓次長看一下,就是說現在的健保費,"},{"start":5306.55,"end":5325.145,"text":"三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。」案。一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。」案。一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。」案。一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。」案。一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。」案。一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草"},{"start":5335.142,"end":5362.054,"text":"則六十五歲以上老人,那你都可以享有健保費的補助。那離島是中央全額補助。基隆市是六十五歲以上通通都可以免繳健保費。那有的縣市是採5%以下。所以你可以看到一個臺灣一國多治,可以看到這樣子的一個"},{"start":5363.464,"end":5385.251,"text":"如果我們把它視為是社會福利的一環的話,可以這樣嗎?因為一個老人家他所處的縣市不同,他享有的福利資源待遇不同,這個有符合公平的原則嗎?OK,非常感謝委員對於本案的關心。我想大概三個重點,第一個就是說,全民健保它是屬於社會保險的一種。"},{"start":5386.787,"end":5413.925,"text":"社會保險基本上事實上是這一個量能付費、風險分擔並且各盡所能、各自所需。社長你可以不用再講學理。我就讓你看到現況,現在就是一國多製。請問你要怎麼處理?保安委員我們現在目前,剛剛已經報告了70歲以上第一收、中低收最需要的我們是全部由本部我們每年以10億來幫助。所以這邊事實上我們事實上是全國一致的。"},{"start":5414.685,"end":5443.752,"text":"我跟你說65歲啊65歲到69歲就不一致啊這個攤開事實就是這麼明顯嘛那你作為中央主管機關你怎麼來處理這一塊呢那報告委員現在有關這部分有關65到69的部分呢其實事實上就是說我們就是就是看各地方政府他們以目前的這一個財力他們自己來那現在最重要就是說是必要性的問題這個就是現在不公平嘛我們看到很明顯的不同的縣市的差異另外一個"},{"start":5444.512,"end":5463.83,"text":"在大選之前總統候選人侯友宜跟柯文哲他們都拋出來是65歲以上免繳健保費那當時這個衛福部部長薛瑞元他因為看到其他兩黨的總統候選人有提出來所以"},{"start":5464.548,"end":5489.378,"text":"他也跟鄭文燦副院長開了一個會考慮要針對第6類109萬人來研議補助方式請問你們的政策有延續嗎你有被交辦這個政策要繼續辦下去嗎報告委員第6類是屬於地區那當時我的瞭解薛部長跟鄭副院長他們所說是第6類裡面的低收中低收的部分有109萬人有嗎沒有"},{"start":5493.877,"end":5518.093,"text":"對啊這個是媒體報導的喔市長好像你接受到了訊息你怎麼落差這麼大呢他說他要針對109萬人每月全額補助健保費826元出工要編100億的公務預算支應而且詳細的方案去年講補助方案會出爐明年正式上路"},{"start":5520.197,"end":5545.492,"text":"這是新聞媒體報導的。那你作為政務次長,你完全沒有接收到任何訊息,在交接的時候沒有交接到這項政策。包委,我收到的是就是剛剛說的,就是第六類裡面的低收中低收的部分。低收中低收,你們不是老早就有在補助了嗎?我們是針對弱勢的部分。那這一則新聞是怎麼回事?"},{"start":5546.618,"end":5552.661,"text":"不認帳了。就是反正薛部長也走了。所以這項方案那我就問你,這項方案還在不在要多編100億的公務預算來補助109萬65歲以上的長者,這一個政策還在不在?"},{"start":5565.47,"end":5586.247,"text":"包括委員除了瞭解那個薛副部長當時交接我們當時還只是就是說我們會來研議喔我們是研議這一個是誰要研議你要研議對我們這邊當然會來研議阿但現在就是說我還是必須要澄清這個是對媒體公開講的是針對地區地區裡面的這一個低收跟中低收的部分"},{"start":5586.627,"end":5603.652,"text":"那你們預估你們新政府上來之後否定了前朝,那你們預計要新增加多少人?他們之前承諾大家是有一百萬人喔,一百億的公務預算。那請問新的賴政府是要補助多少人?擴大補助多少人?多少預算?"},{"start":5604.89,"end":5631.098,"text":"二、委員我們當時我們只是說就是說會來加強對於就是說不管怎麼樣我們一定是對於弱勢的照顧你看你們現在又全盤否定了嘛這個是媒體大家回去查2023年9月6號各大媒體都有每一個媒體都有而且是薛部長跟鄭文燦副院長很緊急的開完會之後對外拍板說的非常的清楚就是100億的規模"},{"start":5632.825,"end":5651.873,"text":"八、委員因為齁我必須要澄清齁所以那次市長你也可以講說你們全盤否定了就是反正蔡政府已經結束了賴政府就是沒有要認這項政策就對了對不對八、委員我們的這個政策一定是延續的但是我現在必須要澄清就是那你的規文告訴本席啊是多少人多少預算嘛"},{"start":5652.993,"end":5653.393,"text":"委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":5674.401,"end":5675.922,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5695.971,"end":5705.073,"text":"二、委員馬文君等16人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員"},{"start":5719.757,"end":5723.658,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5748.525,"end":5751.126,"text":"二、委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":5782.805,"end":5798.479,"text":"報告委員,食藥署藥品組這邊報告。那有關於永豐在停工之前呢,他有供應臨床的藥品一共有20項。那我們食藥署呢,其實在事件的第一時間,就針對這些藥品去尋找國內有許可證、廠商合格的一個"},{"start":5799.339,"end":5825.338,"text":"來取代這些臨床上面的缺口有14項的藥品呢國內的廠商都可以接的上來那其中有4項的藥品的部分呢永豐公司這邊至少有兩個月以上的庫存我們有徵求這個專案進口以及專案製造的部分那最近大家比較關切的是生理食鹽水沖洗用以及注射用的部分我們除了請國內的廠商來增加產能之外呢"},{"start":5825.953,"end":5845.671,"text":"議員馬文君等16人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11會期社會福利及"},{"start":5847.335,"end":5875.005,"text":"那其實加上永豐的原本的一些庫存還有我們專案數量的話六、七月的話是不會有問題的數量是足夠的那七月以後呢七月以後呢目前廠商所提報上來的數字到十月之前呢專案輸入的廠商跟國內的產能的話加起來的數字是可以符合臨床上面的一個需求所以你們保證不會缺貨不會有醫院有短缺的問題"},{"start":5876.294,"end":5876.795,"text":"委員馬文君等16人擬具"},{"start":5890.435,"end":5890.975,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":5909.401,"end":5933.13,"text":"而造成這樣的一個短缺的情況,然後還要這個相關的廠商,要這些勞工就是沒有獲得保障,把他的加班的時數上限給取消掉。這個是犧牲勞工的時間來彌補你們的過失,這個是非常離譜的。另外一個,你們現在的專案是不是三倍的價格?"},{"start":5935.801,"end":5958.3,"text":"欸,專案輸入的價格的部分是昨天健保署有依照程序召開共理會,然後跟廠商討論溢價之後的一個結果。那詳細的藥品價格的數字的話,健保署這邊比較清楚。你們不清楚,今天要來開會本期已經有提醒。你們還不清楚。媒體不是說是多了高達三倍的價格嗎?你們不清楚媒體都清楚。"},{"start":5964.119,"end":5978.684,"text":"目前專案進口因為要讓他快速所以我們大概用到兩到三倍的價格是啊所以你看這一次整個的衛福部的疏失我們又要更多的公帑剛剛次長還說這個大家的這個財政永續啊人民的稅收啊要用在這個刀口上啊請問這是刀口上嗎這是因為疏失你要用三倍的價格然後讓廠商來買"},{"start":5989.668,"end":6014.761,"text":"另外還要勞工就是讓他們去加更多班還要取消現在我們勞基法對他的保障我覺得這一個專案之後一定要要求衛福部徹徹底底的檢討而且也不允許未來還發生這樣的事情是浪費國家公帑還要犧牲勞工的這一個工時然後來彌補這一個過失這個是未來不可以再發生的事情喔好謝謝"},{"start":6028.147,"end":6041.554,"text":"接下來我們請黃建豪委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。那我們先請這個衛福部次長,呂次長。"},{"start":6058.191,"end":6082.441,"text":"好,市長。這個先恭喜喔,擔任這個衛部的政務次長。那我想今天本席要討論的是這個老人福利法22條的部分啊。那其實如果如同剛剛這麼多人的討論,如果單純要來談所謂青壯世代跟老年人的這個負擔的問題,跟這個世代公平之間的問題的話,我想啊,這個如果要把這個話題導到這邊來,我覺得乾脆就廢除老人福利法。"},{"start":6083.161,"end":6105.328,"text":"因為如果我想現行老人福利法跟各項的社會福利制度每一項基本上都是使用人民納稅錢如果要去談這個問題的話因為剛剛提到年輕人低薪房價過高少子化未來負擔等等這個是代表當代政府的無能但是不能把這個責任苛責歸咎於是因為我們要去負擔"},{"start":6106.388,"end":6120.433,"text":"議員馬文君等16人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員長馬文君等16人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案。」案。閱讀委員長馬文君等16人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":6130.456,"end":6152.247,"text":"全民健康保險法提到為了增進的是全體國民健康所以辦理這個全民健康保險所以合併起來看起來其實這個全民健康保險那在65歲上的這個老人的部分在本席的認知裡面他應該是全體整體整個國家的一個重大政策才對次長你對這個想對這樣的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6153.07,"end":6153.811,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":6176.554,"end":6196.293,"text":"還是要界定就是說我們現在目前老人福利法這邊有關的這一個20稅率20還是基本上還是社會保險那我想社會保險陳副委員您在您的論文大作裡面其實有提到其實基本上還是確實就是說風險分擔而且呢是要量能來負擔那我想這個部分我想這個其實基本的原則還是要來確立我認同當然是這個風險分擔那這個風險"},{"start":6201.258,"end":6201.638,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":6228.466,"end":6248.877,"text":"全民健康保險費的負擔的部分明定丟給了職家縣市主管機關。但是我們又看回說老人福利法的第一條跟全民健康保險法的第一條他是為了增進全體國民健康那既然是增進全體國民健康他就理論上他應該是由中央直接來處理而不是讓各地方政府去處理"},{"start":6249.617,"end":6271.19,"text":"因為像各地方政府去處理就會發生現在的問題就是各縣市的財政是不一樣的所以好的地方政府有錢地方政府他的確可以提供比較多補助但沒有錢地方政府他就等於沒有補助所以這件事情就等於違背了老人福利法也好全民健康保險法也好他一開始的立法的宗旨這是本席的見解啦所以說我為什麼要提這一條那再來喔這個次長"},{"start":6274.336,"end":6302.835,"text":"這個幾個名詞啊,老人共餐、長平學院、老人承認補助、老人裝置活動獎勵補助、長期照顧服務、增至老人送餐中心,這些名詞有沒有很熟悉?報告委員,我個人非常熟悉。市長為什麼提這個,因為這是您過去在台中市的德政。不敢不敢。那這個德政怎麼來的?當初是因為台中市那時候是沒有老人健保補助,所以把這個預算挪出來做這件事情。所以我們今天提這個就希望說,中央如果能夠來負擔了這個全民健康保險65歲以上的部分,"},{"start":6302.995,"end":6323.499,"text":"議員馬文君等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案 案 規定,大家可以再細究,我是定20%,但多少才符合公平正義,這個來細究,所以再討論。但是如果中央能夠把這一塊的預算,這一塊的福利制度,把它由中央來承擔,各地方政府去執行剛剛提到的這幾項地方上的福利政策的時候,它就有更多的餘裕。"},{"start":6324.179,"end":6324.8,"text":"議員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":6343.172,"end":6355.602,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期社會福利法第11屆第2會期"},{"start":6358.02,"end":6358.24,"text":"五、委員"},{"start":6387.88,"end":6388.401,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":6414.642,"end":6414.802,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":6437.928,"end":6439.09,"text":"二、委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":6456.673,"end":6479.942,"text":"委員長照老人福利等等的這個經費他能夠去執行這些事情我想未來也會遇到這個問題如果你衛福部要把所有的責任擔在身上我也沒有意見我是樂觀其成但是我今天提到說既然執行面是在地方政府裡面如果在這個執行面上是由地方政府來承擔的話那在財務面上如果能夠讓中央讓衛福部能夠幫他地方政府建"},{"start":6480.502,"end":6499.435,"text":"檢清財政負擔,我想對於未來的整體的老人的福利政策在執行面上才會比較有餘裕。好,謝謝市長。非常感謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝黃建豪委員。接下來我們請張志倫委員質詢。"},{"start":6512.96,"end":6518.435,"text":"主席好,各位官員,各位委員,大家早安。是不是有請次長。好,請旅次長。"},{"start":6524.017,"end":6545.341,"text":"市長好,今天本席我們要來討論的就是有關於老人健保費的問題。可是在請教這個問題之前,我想要先顧一下全民的健康。我想請問一下現在這個癌症,全台灣十大癌症,排名前三名的癌症是哪三個?你清楚嗎?"},{"start":6551.417,"end":6571.508,"text":"對,應該是肺癌。謝謝,謝謝這個神救援。我想請教一下,肺癌過去以來,它是在這個癌症排名前三名裡面,可是它最近幾年一直排在我們全台灣癌症的第一名。想請問一下這個肺癌發生的原因是什麼?高發的原因是什麼?你知道嗎?"},{"start":6572.188,"end":6573.369,"text":"二、委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":6589.042,"end":6616.261,"text":"罪癌已經現在卻榮升為第一名,國人得到癌症的第一名。新聞報導有指出除了抽菸以外,其實真正主要的原因就是空氣污染,就是臺灣錯誤的能源政策。所以這邊我再請教一下,次長這邊有沒有統計,現在全臺各縣市尤其在六都哪一個縣市肺癌發生的比例有增加,有沒有人可以回答這個問題?"},{"start":6618.608,"end":6646.309,"text":"抱歉,是不是容我們再確認一下可以嗎?不好意思。好,那我這邊有統計六都的部分當然就我的得到資料臺中的部分真的成長的非常多所以基本上就是空污的問題錯誤的能源政策的問題那我請教次長我這邊想要來提出是不是這個衛福部應該跟環境部來討論讓人民有知的權利就是說現在我們空氣污染的這個警示燈號"},{"start":6647.33,"end":6653.772,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6676.937,"end":6677.297,"text":"議員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":6695.803,"end":6696.384,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":6712.259,"end":6740.166,"text":"好,謝謝次長從善如流其實這邊我也拜託這個跨部門大家要溝通應該讓人民有知的權利就是說如果今天的空氣品質是差的我出門我至少戴一個口罩而不是讓全民都好像活在這個不知道身邊就有空汙的情況下導致現在肺癌已經成為全台灣空汙排名的第一名所以這邊跟次長報告我也拜託環境部這邊大家一起共同來努力讓人民有知的權利第二個要跟請教次長的是"},{"start":6743.629,"end":6768.49,"text":"這個邱太元接任我們的衛福部的部長他有出一個健康白皮書他裡面有特別提到就是我們現在在講老人健保的65歲以上需要東東免拉健保費政府補助現在財源上有問題所以他特別有提到說調高政府投資保費支出從36%到38%他裡面特別有提出來說"},{"start":6769.804,"end":6771.265,"text":"而他特別提到說過去政府吹的什麼政策要花錢"},{"start":6785.453,"end":6807.828,"text":"而且他認為健保總額要用在醫療,過去政府推了什麼政策要花錢,編總預算很麻煩,因此常常便宜行事。就是沒有應該總額付出的錢也放在裡面,尤其他說之前好像有這個健保他把一些資料上傳到雲端這些的支出也放在總額裡面。所以這個次長你同不同意部長講的,你們應該趕快去爭取啊。"},{"start":6808.668,"end":6832.841,"text":"條高政府投資指數從36%從36調到38%這樣就有多的預算來支持我們黨團的這個政策。報告委員我想邱部長他現在目前這個方向我想確實我想是非常好把這一個相關的這一個我們餅把它做大但是現在目前我必須要提醒就是說按照現在目前這個版本恐怕恐怕"},{"start":6833.956,"end":6834.477,"text":"二、委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":6852.699,"end":6852.799,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":6878.183,"end":6879.044,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":6903.912,"end":6930.965,"text":"二、委員我們現在是以那個就是類似日本的這個措施的那個方法就是說是一學期一學區一日照就是說你的整個整個這個交通範圍的這一個我們那我們也長照市這邊也全力在推動這一個整個這個日照中心的這個部件計畫我們是不是容我們會後我們再將官資料提供給委員非常感謝次長因為這是我非常關心我的政策其實當時也是想要一里一日照那希望大家一起來努力中央地方一條心一學區"},{"start":6932.365,"end":6957.534,"text":"一學區,現在改成一國中學區一日照。大家一起共同來努力。謝謝,謝謝次長。一學區一日照就是現在正在做的,並沒有擴大。這個次長你要講清楚,這沒有擴大,現行就只是一學區一日照。一學區是以國中,而且是國中,所以並沒有擴大。這個要澄清。"},{"start":6959.551,"end":6962.292,"text":"李燕秀委員次長我請次長謝謝次長我剛聽到你回答張委員的說法就是說健保要永續所以要去思考這個老人福利法我還是要提醒你就是說其實包括這個這個老保的政策"},{"start":6987.861,"end":6989.222,"text":"議員馬文君等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7017.276,"end":7018.877,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":7034.249,"end":7035.689,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7061.758,"end":7065.141,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案 案件》案件。"},{"start":7084.4,"end":7111.729,"text":"每月依舊有196萬瓶的缺口,但我們衛福部在這段時間重新去定義缺藥只是供貨吃緊。這個輸益很重要,沒有輸益開不了刀,然後病房有缺輸益,這是很大的大事。這不是供貨吃緊的問題,這是大事。市長,現在到底是怎樣?"},{"start":7113.67,"end":7114.11,"text":"議員,有剛剛所提到"},{"start":7130.441,"end":7130.921,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":7154.173,"end":7176.189,"text":"我們也有請國內的業者持續的提高產能。國內業者搞一條生產限制是要半年以上的時間,拜託。搞一條生產限制要半年以上的時間。目前這些廠商。現在市場醫院大量的需求,衛福部這個是寡占市場,你們這個不提供出來是大事。"},{"start":7177.793,"end":7177.913,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":7195.245,"end":7199.128,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7219.13,"end":7220.091,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":7229.847,"end":7253.474,"text":"都同樣的換一個部長也是同樣的口號啊換一個政次也是啊所以怎麼處理那報告委員其實我們在去年112年3月的時候藥品供應通報處理中心的話其實我們有建立這個專人專者跨司署的一個合作的一個計畫然後這些日子以來我們除了這個建置這個我們在底下的你們在底下的人齁都是同一批人四年前到現在你們都是同一批人"},{"start":7258.359,"end":7274.961,"text":"我覺得我看起來都是藉口,寫這些文青式的解決方案跟方式都是藉口但是對民眾端來講,病人來講或醫院端來講、需求者端來講我覺得你們都沒有真正解決缺藥的問題"},{"start":7276.042,"end":7276.763,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":7301.545,"end":7321.746,"text":"提降低到施打年齡層當然是好事但是這只是暫時未來會不會這個政策會不會持續這是我第一個問題肺炎練球桿菌市長第二個問題這個校期是到多少到什麼時候你們這一次突然開放是因為校期快到了所以才突然開放嗎不知道"},{"start":7324.773,"end":7325.855,"text":"委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":7338.792,"end":7355.658,"text":"市長我要提醒你如果是因為我覺得當然肺炎練球桿菌可以降到50歲以上可以施打我個人是支持這個政策我希望不是暫時性的但是今年是因為我們庫存過多才鼓勵大家施打那我覺得"},{"start":7357.073,"end":7357.494,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":7370.031,"end":7390.474,"text":"我覺得未來的決策可能要重新去做調整否則的話要不然的話你們未來就是50歲以上都用公費施打我支持但是不要在最後我不知道什麼時候JP什麼時候過期什麼時候過期不知道我聽到的是6月底之前就要過期所以你們現在趕快叫人家趕快來施打我覺得這樣不好啦"},{"start":7391.311,"end":7410.287,"text":"我提醒你們這樣這個政策這樣是有問題的這個決策是有問題的你要不就提早管控五月中五月初可能庫存很多趕快鼓勵大家趕快降低年齡層免費公費施打這個時候再來才來叫我覺得你們決策有問題好謝謝OK非常感謝委員謝謝好謝謝李恩秀委員我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7425.445,"end":7437.473,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":7450.269,"end":7470.631,"text":"二、委員王熙宏等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案。adequate 2、委員張嘉郡等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案。adequate 3、委員張嘉郡等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":7780.252,"end":7806.488,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在羅賓才 羅賓才 羅賓才委員不在張嘉郡 張嘉郡 張嘉郡委員不在我們請林淑芬委員質詢主席 各位大家早安是不是還請我們次長好 請李次長"},{"start":7817.748,"end":7841.399,"text":"市長你好。最近一次你到餐廳用餐是什麼時候?最近一次到餐廳用餐?包括委員我想不起來了。沒關係。那你有沒有用過QR Code點餐?點餐以後有使用線上支付結帳嗎?"},{"start":7843.932,"end":7858.977,"text":"現上支付。你!你是別人替你服務的吧?你有沒有到過麥當勞肯德基摩斯漢堡的自助點餐機點過餐,自己操作?"},{"start":7860.882,"end":7876.738,"text":"拜託委員沒有 我都用現金的啦 抱歉抱歉 不是啦 不是現金 我是自助點餐機欸 自己去操作 沒有櫃台 沒有那個點餐人員的 因為我 我算比較有錢人齁 你幾歲"},{"start":7882.591,"end":7897.579,"text":"抱歉 這個是不應該回答的抱歉抱歉抱歉我再次必須要請你回答因為這個跟這個有關你幾歲了抱歉可是這個跟我的主題有關啊我太壞了我太壞了我國國歷史啦1962年國國啦"},{"start":7905.387,"end":7924.592,"text":"五十五年次啊。五十八,今年五十八。好,我就要跟你講喔。數目發布在2023年,發布了一個112年數位發展調查報告。它的報告內容指出啊,從年齡差異來看,個人上網率大概以60歲為分界。12到59歲的民眾上網率達91.9%以上。但是60到64歲就下降到剩下83.7%。"},{"start":7934.395,"end":7963.218,"text":"六十五歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%,那換言之大概六十歲,抱歉我問你年齡是因為這個原因,六十歲以上就有數位落差,那近五成的六十五歲以上的長者不會使用網路。再來只是使用網路喔,你只要會用LINE就有在使用網路喔。是沒錯。現在我告訴你,可是這裡面有一個更精準的一個分析喔。"},{"start":7964.971,"end":7981.343,"text":"報告裏面有一個叫資訊與通信科技禁用權ICT這個禁用權和使用和素養的年齡一同匯整表那可以看得出來資訊查詢如果不要講直上網從資訊查詢和行動支付兩項指標來看60到64歲都開始就低於全體的平均值但是"},{"start":7993.632,"end":8008.131,"text":"六十五歲以上呈現雪崩式下滑。六十五歲以上他使用網路做資訊查詢的只有18%,那使用行動支付的?"},{"start":8008.692,"end":8026.578,"text":"只有10%,10.6%所以對於這個65歲以上使用資訊查詢和行動支付的這個兩個指標來看的話,其實是雪崩式,幾乎沒效啦!高聲沒在用電子支付的啦!你剛才說你有在用還是沒有?電子支付,你有沒有來配?Google配?台灣配?市長有沒有?沒有"},{"start":8038.151,"end":8039.393,"text":"五十八歲的沒有啊。"},{"start":8043.578,"end":8050.619,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8072.503,"end":8083.207,"text":"現在AI的發展日新月異長者的日常生活注定跟社會環境其實是越來越衝突的因為高齡上的數位落差變成高齡的挫折外出的挫折然後變成高齡歧視後來就變成高齡被邊緣化"},{"start":8095.852,"end":8117.334,"text":"欸這是一個階段一個階段社會好像年輕人越來越方便網路越來越方便可是呢欸老人越來越邊緣啊因為數位落差讓老人結果不敢走出去不敢走出來那我講點餐來講光是你知道餐廳很多手機和平板點餐那對高齡者來講他有什麼考驗"},{"start":8118.895,"end":8142.491,"text":"市長,你想得到它會有什麼障礙?包括其實有幾個部分,第一個就是說可能字體大小,還有另外一方面就是說... 太小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。那根據紅道老人福利基金會的處長陳煥宇他表示,長者的科技落差在於科技點餐越來越普及的現代社會中越來越困窘。"},{"start":8143.792,"end":8158.927,"text":"连到超市买东西都因为不擅长使用APP然后招牌队等待客人嘲讽有人会冷言冷语说不会买就不要出来所以即使不是长者不关你你中年的中年"},{"start":8160.629,"end":8188.066,"text":"對於科技點餐也有障礙。然後即便你要去適應和學習也要花時間。所以紅道基金會也收到長輩遇到類似的困擾,像手機點餐點了老半天,他一直點都沒有辦法進入下一步,或是點到最後一個步驟了,然後不小心又滑到了,變成回到上一頁又得重來了。那有時候點餐時的螢幕字體太小,老花眼看不到,其實都是從重重的障礙和阻礙。"},{"start":8189.207,"end":8189.647,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":8216.03,"end":8216.951,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":8238.646,"end":8239.166,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":8255.791,"end":8255.831,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":8285.991,"end":8304.573,"text":"坐到中午一直坐,一直就坐在那裡。所以你知道大型醫院會協助所謂的長輩敬老,會提供協助的是幾歲的嗎?大型醫院。不是啦,那志工都提供幾歲的你知道嗎?"},{"start":8306.281,"end":8330.494,"text":"所謂的敬老醫院給他們的協助是幾歲你知道嗎?市長85歲市長這些問題都很嚴重我們今天講說給老人什麼福利給老人什麼照顧連他生活上的這個數位落差讓他所受到的困擾和遭遇他其實就是很大的社會排斥了和排擠了你知道"},{"start":8331.354,"end":8346.286,"text":"而如果使用現場查詢下載醫院的APP可以推估但他沒有辦法推估時間所以只能一直等而且對經常出入醫院的長輩來講只要就診回診不是太早到就是預估錯誤晚到導致過號所以就是時間都耗在那裡"},{"start":8349.788,"end":8376.83,"text":"所以不是只有這個團體老人福利團體在觀察連年輕人都自己觀察到說如果沒有我們年輕人自己的爸爸媽媽也是一樣可是很多爸爸媽媽說我不要麻煩你年輕人然後到時候就說沒有年輕人幫忙也不想麻煩年輕人的話我們就乾脆不要外出去消費但是這個符合我們國家提升高齡者跟社會連結的政策目標嗎?次長"},{"start":8378.376,"end":8392.454,"text":"包括委員那個確實我們現在目前就是說資訊社會裡面就您剛剛說的這個數位落差這個我們要趕快來趕上去那我跟委員報告我們現在目前在社區照顧關懷據點長青學院我們現在目前都有推類似像這樣的一個的一個方案"},{"start":8393.716,"end":8415.32,"text":"對啦,我們說得很好聽。2022年我們行政院核定了因應超高齡社會對策方案啦然後提到我們2026年會進入超高齡社會老人人口賺總人口的比率會20.8到2036年會達到28%進入極高齡社會的國家那所以你們當然也有一些政策啊"},{"start":8415.68,"end":8424.247,"text":"提升高齡者數位連結,降低高齡者數位落差的政策。如果你所說在社區大學裡面教,可是你知道社區大學裡面教什麼嗎?教什麼?內容。"},{"start":8427.629,"end":8451.063,"text":"一般通常就是說以我在國際台中服務的經驗大概就是說像如何上網啦還有對於一些整個這一個就是設備使用的一些的一些knowledge你講了一部分而已啦他在教社區大學關懷據點教你怎麼使用FB啊怎麼使用通訊軟體LINE啊你怎麼玩遊戲調記身心啊但是跟我剛才講的那一些都不一步"},{"start":8451.783,"end":8452.243,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":8476.554,"end":8501.713,"text":"人手一機但是完全不會那他也沒有辦法辨別網路詐騙更不要講用手機進行網路掛號和看準的進度而且重點是社區大學你所謂的整個國家整體的改善數位落差的政策和教學都是紙上談兵在那裡啊看這個放影片然後就是照這樣你就照這樣做聽完以後老人家就是鴨子聽雷啦對"},{"start":8503.695,"end":8506.736,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8533.817,"end":8546.624,"text":"你就知道說我們真的整個衛福部從來都沒有思考解決這部分的障礙和問題。韓國2022年因為疫情所以加速了它整個社會的數位化的時代。全韓國電子自助機台"},{"start":8551.747,"end":8562.511,"text":"三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會福利及�"},{"start":8576.817,"end":8596.486,"text":"但又害怕說很丟臉所以乾脆不外出避免消費所以讓這樣的數位落差讓高齡者其實更遠離社會的所以首爾後來首爾就做了什麼知道嗎他就增設慢機台專門給這個長輩給他慢慢操作你不要有壓力這是長輩慢慢操作台然後經濟到的地區也幫長輩們上幾數位課把電子機台"},{"start":8604.309,"end":8618.966,"text":"一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案件說明到使用程序一切手把手教學還讓長輩直接上機練習除此之外疫情期間韓國因為銀行業務全面調整那兩年關閉了600家銀行分行"},{"start":8623.971,"end":8629.439,"text":"所以全面擴大網路金融服務但是全韓國60到70歲的民眾網路銀行使用率到目前只有37%然後70歲以上的長者只有一成南韓的銀髮族說沒有人幫我下載這個網銀APP"},{"start":8639.795,"end":8640.335,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":8665.501,"end":8685.057,"text":"所謂的女大社會福祉學系的教授提到數位落差使長輩的社交範圍縮小甚至遭到破壞他們會因此感到孤單孤獨老人輕生率可能提高而縮小生活中的數位落差防止長輩們出現社會疏離感"},{"start":8688.32,"end":8717.066,"text":"打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題所以因應這樣子邁向超高齡社會勢必一定要加速調整精進你的政策的重點市長數位落差的現行執行策略和具體工作你一定要好好的去盤點不要在那裡紙上談兵而且不是實際生活需要的你要針對高齡者的日常生活進行數位科技應用擴大所有的"},{"start":8719.907,"end":8733.731,"text":"關懷據點：所有社區大學裏面的具體生活能力的教導的課程。你都沒有做,基本上我們完全不需要思考過這項問題。你自己就沒效。謝謝林書柯委員的資訊。"},{"start":8747.264,"end":8769.42,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢。謝謝主席。楊瓊英發言,邀請次長。好,請理事長。次長好。委員好。本席跟黃家豪委員等22人所提出的條文第22條,你贊同嗎?"},{"start":8771.432,"end":8795.928,"text":"報告委員我想那個關心那個長輩都是我們共同的因為東北總是說對我們國家對我們家庭都很有貢獻但是就是我就是我們一再強調這個基本上還是社會保險社會保險還是要就是說大家有年齡有年齡我們是不是社會保險大家有年齡但是沒年齡的時候政府就要來協助你來自台中沒錯最清楚"},{"start":8796.688,"end":8796.808,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":8812.293,"end":8830.856,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案 案 令一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案 案 令一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案 案 令一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案 案 令一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條條文修正草案 案 令一、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條條文修正草案 案 令一、委員張嘉"},{"start":8840.178,"end":8868.762,"text":"總人口的總比應該是20.28那年輕人口的這個定義呢就老年人口是21%那我們已經快要達到了2036年我們預估更會達到28%進入極高年化的這個國家那台灣漫入這樣的一個情況我們國人的醫療需求也是正向的快速在成長那要怎麼樣能夠降低國人"},{"start":8869.022,"end":8871.425,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":8884.54,"end":8906.051,"text":"各地要有讓它有一致性的一個公平所以本席跟黃建豪委員所提出的第22條的修正條例也希望待會在實質討論的時候能夠得到行政部門的一個支持所以請教你是否再一次請教支持對於最近一年綜合所得稅"},{"start":8908.193,"end":8926.246,"text":"總額合計未達到申報標準或中俄的稅率未達到百分之二十以上的老人由中央主管機關全額補助健保費,以符合整個世代的正義精神。"},{"start":8929.059,"end":8953.533,"text":"我非常感謝委員的意見但是我還是來回復一下委員就是如果說我們相關財源我想當然很好可是現在有個問題在於剛剛說就是說我大概兩個數字跟委員報告如果按照現在目前20%的話大概就佔我們所有老人84%"},{"start":8955.239,"end":8978.987,"text":"所以更可以去看到這個問題的需求條但是問題就是說我們的老人我跟委員報告一個數字因為我們最近都在報稅嘛稅率百分之二十以前家戶所得是一百二十一萬到兩百到兩百五十到兩百五十二萬我們現在年輕的那個我們中衛所得是三萬七千五三萬七千五我平均起來"},{"start":8979.727,"end":8985.373,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9001.553,"end":9003.093,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":9020.879,"end":9022.32,"text":"二、委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":9041.587,"end":9060.734,"text":"雖然我們八次被排擠在台灣人很勇敢的我們還是將會帶隊各政黨派一位去我們部長在那裡我們不斷的吶喊這是台灣人的精神這才是真正在做事不要政治話術所以呢本席要請教"},{"start":9061.494,"end":9083.763,"text":"我們要怎麼樣改善護理人力的一個短處的問題。那我們這一次去我也希望部長可以帶回來一些可以借鏡因為在一月份的公告三班互併比的這個標準三月一號開始來執行來實施那搭配了三班輪流夜班的人員給予獎勵我要請教部長"},{"start":9086.004,"end":9108.975,"text":"目前實施三月一號開始實施到現在你認為實質改善的成果到底是怎麼樣因為基層的護理師人員的工作越來越繁複加入的因子越來越多在這樣的情況之下勞動強度不減因子會越來越多所以換句話說他休假會一再的受到阻撓"},{"start":9110.215,"end":9134.621,"text":"甚至要跨科來支援。跨科來支援,外科要來支援內科,沒有人就是淡路。所以護理人員很辛苦。我們要怎麼樣的去滾動式的來修正。因為護理工作是我們醫療體系當中非常重要的一環。那部長,你要怎麼樣作為護理人員的後盾?請說明。"},{"start":9134.941,"end":9164.156,"text":"非常感謝委員對於這個部分的關心,我想也非常非常敬佩。那我兩個重點,第一就是我們在去年12月已經有核定新政院那邊有12項的一個對策。那互併比只是其中之一,我想這個要多元。另外第二個就是剛剛委員有非常關心的,有關於這一個跨科的部分,其實這個部分會牽涉到勞動部,他們那邊有一些相關的規範。我想這個部分,我想委員的關心我們非常佩服,而且這也是全民大家共同的...你佩服本席提出問題,但是你沒有回答本席的問題。"},{"start":9165.677,"end":9185.836,"text":"從3月1號開始來執行現在是5月底本席請問的是你認為到目前為止成效如何?去年行政院核定的12項也是我們積極吶喊所以本席已經有這樣的政策本席請問你的成效會不會改變?是"},{"start":9186.477,"end":9201.096,"text":"本席是要請你去看我們的政策執行的當中我們的成效怎麼樣好給予加冕不好我們要滾動式的檢討所以我請你詳細的書面資料給本席你執行到現在"},{"start":9201.636,"end":9220.581,"text":"你要怎麼樣滾動式的調整讓他們真正有這個成效。第二個三班制的互併比跟跨科因為本席說的內科跟外科一起差很多雖然都是護理師所以在這個跨科的情況你回答的是說是這個勞動部的問題不許這樣回答"},{"start":9224.722,"end":9251.507,"text":"因為這是你管控的是你主管機關你要去了解跨科目前到底有多少實際我們缺少了多少人你要去探問問題出來你才可以去解決問題啊你堆給勞動部幹什麼那你就不要站在這裡了嘛所以我是以重心長啦因為護理師人員真的好辛苦我們每一天服務處都在接受陳情"},{"start":9253.007,"end":9268.585,"text":"護理人員真的太辛苦了。福利中心從根源要護理師科系的相關科系可以做的要怎麼樣誘引讓他們可以來。現在他們做的工作所限缺需要的到底是什麼?"},{"start":9269.506,"end":9290.001,"text":"這才是我們要解決問題不要隨隨便便的答覆這是勞動部這本席不予認同所以一樣的跨科系的這個問題可以怎麼樣去解決請你詳實去了解因素那你講你預計你可以改善的方式給本席好不好這個才是我們實質在討論最後一個議題長病毒的問題我們呢從6月17號臺北市"},{"start":9296.966,"end":9318.44,"text":"全額補助弱勢的那71型疫苗的這個一兩劑那麼台北市預計有800名的兒童受惠新北從5月23、3歲以下弱勢幼兒也可以免費來接送所以我要請教部長預防重瘀治療部長你有沒有研議"},{"start":9319.401,"end":9320.763,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":9337.222,"end":9339.983,"text":"委員許宇甄等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案 案。」案"},{"start":9354.531,"end":9356.132,"text":"議員馬文君等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9387.128,"end":9390.691,"text":"我以為一般上來通常備詢的首長都會說委員好先。委員好。好,次長好,因為我想跟你問好。好,沒關係。不要緊張。那個"},{"start":9415.435,"end":9416.435,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":9445.544,"end":9463.129,"text":"署長不用擔心我今天沒有要跟你argue要不要調到55歲齁所以這個你可以會後再跟次長講那次長你有沒有看過這個資料有的有齁這個我有看到你覺得他寫的好嗎"},{"start":9466.94,"end":9489.116,"text":"好了沒關係我們來我是故意問你一下那這是這個原住民檢疫生命表的分析內容那這個分析表的資料是每年由衛福部提供給內政部然後再由內政部進行統計分析整理之後公佈那當然呢也包括把資料回饋給衛福部作為施政的參考我們現在看到的是110年的資料那下一張是這個111年的資料"},{"start":9495.3,"end":9522.836,"text":"市長你既然看過這個結論你有沒有發現什麼問題?我們現在目前大概就是說平均餘命大概都在延長那這是一個一般的一個趨勢當然也是因為跟我們整個這個公共衛生健保的貢獻但確實就是說原住民的這個部分確實叫一般我們一般我想這個也不光台灣我想這個像比如澳洲紐西蘭等等這些都有類似的一個情況"},{"start":9524.056,"end":9537.42,"text":"我們這個部分我們會來持續推動這部分我想是這樣子就是說數據的如實分析沒關係我等一下我們先繼續看好了啦我來帶你做一下這個數學"},{"start":9539.361,"end":9568.505,"text":"那我們就是這個結論的這個內容標題都是一樣那原住民的平均餘命就是成上升趨勢對沒錯還有跟全體國民差距成縮小趨勢前面喔都有加這個長期兩個字喔對好像看起來都是沒有錯的可是這幾年的變化是真的是這樣嗎那次長依照你的瞭解這就是如此嗎"},{"start":9574.059,"end":9575.101,"text":"我確實不太確定,謝謝"},{"start":9585.275,"end":9605.34,"text":"沒關係我們再來看一下這是原住民平均逾一命的各年資料是乘這個上升的趨勢沒有錯這個是原住民跟這個全體國民的平均逾一命的差距的資料看起來也是在縮小也沒錯但是我們再看下一張問題來了"},{"start":9607.659,"end":9633.086,"text":"如果我們看這個表這個答案就不簡單了之前大家有個說法包括去年審查原住民族健康法的時候衛福部也提供相同的資訊那105年到109年間這五年原住民的平均餘命總共提高了1.74歲我把速度放慢105年到109年原住民的平均餘命提高1.74歲是"},{"start":9635.326,"end":9656.807,"text":"大家就四舍五入說我們平均移民都提高將近兩歲可是全體國人也是提高1.32歲所以這五年原住民的平均移民提高的情況並不是單純的就是說我們的這個好像想像中就是提高了這個將近兩歲"},{"start":9660.25,"end":9680.288,"text":"如果我們講到原住民與全體國人的差距政府公布的資訊是109年到111年之間這三年縮短了1.47歲你如果沒有follow到我的速度我可以再重複放慢沒關係但是你要告訴我可是實際上是這樣這麼單純嗎我們來看一下這個表二"},{"start":9686.401,"end":9700.367,"text":"各年齡層這三年間平均餘命差距都縮小了1.5歲左右可是我們看到下一排紅字的數據這三年全體國人的平均餘命"},{"start":9701.187,"end":9704.068,"text":"全體國人平均餘命下降的結果而不是原住民的平均餘命上升"},{"start":9716.714,"end":9733.052,"text":"我再講一次這個是全體國人平均餘命下降的結果不是我們原住民平均餘命上升所以次長用單一數據然後說明原住民的平均餘命有大幅的改善你不覺得這個有很大的盲點嗎?"},{"start":9735.186,"end":9739.829,"text":"市長,這次用單一數據說故事的問題,連衛福部送給行政院核定的原鄉健康不平等改善策略行動計畫也是這麼寫的。"},{"start":9753.937,"end":9771.125,"text":"結果害去年行政院頒布的新聞稿也是只寫平均餘命縮短差距幾歲卻沒有提到其他的數據其實這三年原住民的平均餘命是稍微下降大概少了0.01歲所以次長這個問題"},{"start":9776.768,"end":9802.688,"text":"衛福部內的機關的單位包括社家署、照護司、統計處等等都會用這個數據的單位你們一定要全面檢討而且要特別注意因為這樣很容易造成民眾的誤解而且你們每年提供資料給內政部的時候也都應該要跟內政部好好的溝通一下這個問題當一個數據交到你們手上的時候"},{"start":9806.051,"end":9807.038,"text":"不是都只是"},{"start":9809.023,"end":9835.762,"text":"應該要有很多的計算方式橫向、縱向看到底要怎麼加加減減會有不一樣的結果出來所以數據的分析我們的如實分析其實是要找出問題的是要研擬對策然後要解決問題不是說要來美化然後粉飾太平所以我在這裡特別做這樣的提醒那我待會會後我會給你"},{"start":9837.303,"end":9859.436,"text":"這個不是假新聞這是一個真新聞但是它不是一個專業的新聞那你參考一下這個文件站的這個新聞稿那因為你新上任我多送你這個36秒讓你休息我簡單回答一下就是說我們在研究法裡面其實就是說你不同的測量就不同的結果"},{"start":9860.336,"end":9862.618,"text":"五、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9890.713,"end":9904.25,"text":"接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。有請部長,呃,社長。要升官了。來,理事長。"},{"start":9907.131,"end":9921.117,"text":"好,這樣邱部長就危險了。好,先恭喜我們的李建德次長來接任這個農論衛生部的次長。那這個應該都有掌握嘛,衛環委會召開了一些相關的會議,還有相關的業務都清楚嘛。趕快在進入狀況再學習。那你知道3月28號衛環委會排什麼專案報告嗎?"},{"start":9934.062,"end":9945.012,"text":"三、二十八齁?對、對、對。你不是進入狀況了?抱歉、委員、抱歉。三、二十八因為我以前還沒準備好。你剛才說他還沒來。對。你也是說他從這裡來的。對。你是說他從醫藥這裡來的。對、對、對。你有進入狀況嗎?"},{"start":9953.553,"end":9966.818,"text":"你有沒有掌握衛福委員會召開的相關...我在努力學習當中。學習跟掌握是兩回事。是是是。那一天召開社會安全缺失檢討及具體改進的作法的專案報告。"},{"start":9971.141,"end":10000.065,"text":"那市長當時知道那是為了什麼事件召開嗎?我知道,就是那個我們現在那個新北,那個凱凱的那個那時候我在諮詢,也在這個委員會諮詢學前部長就發現這個有蠻多缺失的,急需要來改善那其中一個最大的缺失是這個針對凱凱案有特殊家庭的小朋友未婦原有訂這個直轄室縣市政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置"},{"start":10000.525,"end":10019.764,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案的原則,有些規定有三項,第一,建立至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之居托人員名單。第二,提供居托人員照顧家外安置兒童相關專業訓練。第三,訓練課程建設包括安置個案類型創傷階級問題輔導。"},{"start":10024.148,"end":10031.021,"text":"都有這樣的原則把關。最後還是凱凱案的悲劇發生。這原因出在什麼地方?"},{"start":10032.503,"end":10056.989,"text":"拜託委員,我想這裡面大概就是說有幾個部分,一個是就是說我們社工同仁對於這個部分的一個認知,還有整個收出養的這一個制度的一個完善。還有另外一個其實事實上就是中央跟地方的這一邊的一個相關的一個協調的部分,橫向的這個聯繫。主席時間是不是可以暫停一下,因為我要放那個放不出來。"},{"start":10059.488,"end":10088.086,"text":"我今天沒辦法放。前面都可以啊。你的問題,你要講你的問題啊。好,對不起。好,謝謝。我是這樣啦齁,我當時看待是說因為台北市政府覺得他的安置資源是充足啦齁。對。啊所以就不需要照這個處理原則來處理啦。嗯,沒錯。所以才發生這個憾事齁。那時候薛、薛布也很生氣啦齁。對。啊生氣就沒有用啦。嗯。然後,然後導致這個台北市沒有這樣的名單。"},{"start":10088.746,"end":10112.146,"text":"那那那也硬要誇區到這個沒有建置到家外安置的托育人員的臺北市所以一步一步把這個凱凱推向死亡的這樣的一個一個結局嘛吼也因此啦吼世家署有經過檢討所以他在4月30又公佈了一個叫做自家縣市的政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引要來強化這個居家托育的服務的這個訪視工作"},{"start":10113.507,"end":10122.864,"text":"但是這個工作指引會不會又變成台北市還是哪一個縣市覺得要自己支援足夠或怎麼樣又不遵照這個指引了那你們怎麼處理?"},{"start":10124.935,"end":10126.877,"text":"委員馬文君等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":10151.378,"end":10172.63,"text":"市長,你那邊坐啦,你站在那邊我覺得很難過啦。對啊,好像我在懲罰你。今天之前有定原者,那地方政府就不知道這樣辦理。你現在定了指引,他如果又不知道這樣,他覺得指引夠,他就不需要,又發生事情了,然後怎樣,你們又在那邊震怒,震怒有用嗎?"},{"start":10173.61,"end":10197.234,"text":"已經要丟了一條人命了?還是發生悲劇?我們現在目前有已經有通過一個整個市安網2.0那之前在那個林萬一林政委他那邊的一個指導之下我們現在目前的整個這個人力上面我們現在目前會來有一個倍增計畫還有另外一個就是說您剛剛像委員剛剛所說的我們現在也會定班就是說這一個他的整個這個地方政府他們的整個處理原則"},{"start":10197.694,"end":10197.714,"text":"委員"},{"start":10215.021,"end":10238.489,"text":"現在不是只有我們社交組、衛福部的社交組遇到這個問題啦。連社交組也遇到之前的蘇丹農事件。也有相關之前我們針對食品的相關的手冊沒有特定。這個手冊早已經被要點、新的要點取代了。那地方政府後來拿著這個手冊來跟對方在那邊、跟我們中央在那邊argue。"},{"start":10238.789,"end":10260.158,"text":"我覺得這個事情,所以當我們訂原則,當我們訂職員,如果地方政府不遵守的話,你們怎麼處理嗎?報告委員,我們現在目前就是說,另外就是我們有那個社福考核,績效考核,那他如果說那個不符合的話對不對,那對不起,那我們的可能以後的整個補助上面分數會低。只有這樣的手段而已?"},{"start":10261.038,"end":10261.178,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":10277.504,"end":10278.184,"text":"議員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":10292.469,"end":10292.909,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":10308.098,"end":10333.784,"text":"所以依照衛福的資料22個縣市的施工需求是將近4200人現在禁用差不多3700左右 監控率不到九成尤其新北市的需求人數最高它的監控率也只有七成一那同時我這邊有個資料就是五年內台灣的社工需求又高達4185但是現在每年願意投入到社工師的行列每年才685我把它算起來不到八成"},{"start":10335.064,"end":10358.009,"text":"六八五乘以五,再除以四一八五,又不到八成。就越來越少。現在又依據台灣社會工作教育協會在一百零九年所做的調查,它是一百零九年,因為我後面調不到資料。世工系所總計遭受的學生碩士博士有三零八一人,三千出。但現在每年投入到世工師職場才六百多人。"},{"start":10358.689,"end":10385.998,"text":"也就是差不多25%左右剩下75%他不投入這個職場裡面什麼原因?包括委員大概我想主要三個部分因為我自己也在大學裡面教書了那大概有三個部分一個是教考訓練這個B之間的這一個整個結合問題另外第二個其實最重要還是剛剛委員剛剛所說的社工他自己本身的薪資、勞動條件的部分那薪資的部分我們現在目前在社安網2.0我們之前已經也已經有一個相關"},{"start":10386.778,"end":10409.099,"text":"有一個社工倍增策略,委員當然說你倍增的問題也誘因,誘因的部分我們現在就有兩個部分,薪資薪資的部分我們公部門薪資我們現在目前已經有提高另外第二個是在私部門的話我們又有一個整個這一個相關的整個這個補助那另外一個就是說我們現在會加強你這個社工系的學生在大三、大四的時候你就可以到我們的機關裡面做實習"},{"start":10411.161,"end":10413.342,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案 案 》案。"},{"start":10436.328,"end":10443.685,"text":"日本我都沒記錯應該八四五一比八四五八四五日本韓國瑜"},{"start":10446.347,"end":10472.284,"text":"韓國...沒關係啦,就這樣討論啦,我們不是要故意跟次長...如果韓國沒有記錯的話,大概...他比我們略好一點,大概一...如果沒記錯他一零二多吧?一零二多?對不起,我這邊資料是不是有錯誤?就請部長再double check。你剛講日本是一比八百多嘛對不對?我這邊是一比四三六。那你剛剛講韓國是一比一零多嘛,一千多嘛。我這邊是一比二八九。"},{"start":10474.857,"end":10480.31,"text":"韓國對香港是一比四一樣韓國我可能如果我的數據錯馬上提出來"},{"start":10482.26,"end":10506.603,"text":"對,我講這樣啦,我講這樣,你看臺灣就是一比一二多,我這邊是一跟你的數據差不多喔,你是一二三五,我是一二四九啦,所以應該我底下這個數據應該也不會有多大的落差啦,但是剛剛聽市長講這個落差是蠻大的,那如果這樣的市場環境怎麼會好?對不對,畢業的學生、婆氏、碩士怎麼願意來投入?"},{"start":10507.804,"end":10508.685,"text":"五、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":10537.564,"end":10538.525,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":10566.981,"end":10573.38,"text":"可以達到我們讓這個社工的人力房可以解決了好不好一個月內這個我就要求時間比較快一點"},{"start":10574.557,"end":10578.599,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10599.127,"end":10617.625,"text":"但是當地方政府首長他要去展現他對65歲以上的不管什麼樣態的這些長輩讓他們減輕相關的一些負擔這個方向絕對是正確的無庸置疑但是到底要不要要不要要不要有一次的標準"},{"start":10618.266,"end":10646.154,"text":"不要有城鄉落差不要有縣市之間的差異有的就像這是我看到的資料65歲的台北市的老人綜合所得稅率未達20%台南市女友中度65歲以上中度輕度身心障礙所涉且經稅監機關核定最近一年綜合所得稅未達12%台中市綜合所得稅稅率5%以下大大大大這是六都"},{"start":10647.954,"end":10662.621,"text":"則狀況就完全沒有一致性。當你完全沒有一致性的情況之下,現在全國是22個縣市,對不對?六都就有六個版本。22個縣市扣掉,是不是要變成17個版本?17個樣態。坦白說,也不為過。"},{"start":10670.913,"end":10687.388,"text":"而不而過的情況之下,你中央在主管健保的這個單位,這個主管機關,你要怎麼處理,要怎麼應應?我覺得要面對啦,要處理啦。中央為什麼有這個底氣,他願意來讓65歲以上的這些長輩免除了這個健保費這樣的一個負擔。"},{"start":10696.076,"end":10696.176,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":10713.594,"end":10740.974,"text":"這個真的是要好好去盤點好好去做一些資料的一些調查我覺得是時候是不是部長回來之後社長就可以跟部長來做這個討論給他一些意見甚至也把主計單位找過來中央補助地方相關包含的專案計畫還有特同那個統籌密稅款的試算方法是不是一併要做一些大調整呢"},{"start":10743.615,"end":10766.235,"text":"委員馬文君等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案 案 及其中一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案 案 及其中一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案 案 及其中一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案 案 及其中一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案 案 及其中一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正"},{"start":10767.236,"end":10768.137,"text":"議員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":10785.606,"end":10786.146,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":10803.592,"end":10808.295,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":10832.393,"end":10837.138,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案 案。"},{"start":10859.666,"end":10886.291,"text":"市長您是社福專家不敢政學兩系不敢不敢那您說要把台中市的經驗推到全國本席想請教您您對於現在我們在全國實施的社區關懷據點的政策和施行的現況瞭解嗎報告委員正在瞭解中瞭解中對因為您剛上任是這個"},{"start":10888.029,"end":10889.05,"text":"二、委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":10903.978,"end":10926.82,"text":"現在我們社區關懷據點的業務費發放的標準我們是按照開設的服務的時段但是你想想看同樣開設五個時段一週一週五個時段你的獎補助的經費是一樣的可是有的社區30人有的社區50人有的社區100多人"},{"start":10929.463,"end":10933.35,"text":"像這個就不合理嗎?是不是可以檢討?可以調整嗎?我想委員的這個意見非常好就是說"},{"start":10939.198,"end":10939.338,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":10963.208,"end":10982.875,"text":"是,包委員是不是可以容我們回去,我想我過去台中,我知道這個關懷據點對於長輩,我想那個鼓勵長輩能走出來,我想這是一個非常好的一個政策,那我們就是相關的補助,您剛剛說的這個部分,是不是我想我們來做一些檢討。"},{"start":10985.316,"end":10985.656,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":11005.316,"end":11018.521,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及�"},{"start":11033.246,"end":11054.458,"text":"所以你看30個人跟80個人跟100個人其實這個費用上差異就很大了所以這個部分是不是一併可以來檢討好不好好OK好謝謝委員謝謝那這個部分一定要給我們一個回應因為這個真的地方我相信應該各地都有這個反應才對是其實我"},{"start":11055.999,"end":11073.358,"text":"其實我也了解不過我也跟委員報告就是說我們現在目前就是說有兩個部分一個事實上就是說剛剛委員剛剛關心的是說已經已有的我們如何深入可是我們現在另外還有一個必須要開拓要再開拓要開拓所以現在目前就是說我們現在是把這一個整個coverage就是把它覆蓋的範圍我們盡量"},{"start":11075.059,"end":11098.505,"text":"來我們先來先來做一個整個廣布因為其實現在目前現有一些我也知道就是有一些非常成功但現有對做得很好的你們還是要讓他不要讓他營運上困難啊對但我們還是希望就是說因為也跟我們報告就是說真的是國家這個資源還是就是說有限的情況之下我們是不是現階段先從面的擴充那至於就是說其實我們也有一個政策嘛就是說很多的一些不不不你那個人數你還是要"},{"start":11099.545,"end":11117.182,"text":"看依據情況嘛有的地方你面很廣但他需求不多你一定兩、二、三十個當然二、三十個我們也是要照顧但那個一百個的他真的很需求的你還是要照顧到啊你都已經辦了但是你這樣會讓人家感覺你就是辦個樣子你就是有做就好啊"},{"start":11120.266,"end":11142.697,"text":"委員我們還是希望就是說已經就是說已經上已經這個表現好的那他們表現好但是他現在就是很困難你變成他你就你就有一點你其實扼殺他你你他表現好你不讓他繼續做嗎或者他沒有辦法好好的好好的往下所以這一塊我請你們一定要檢討接著第二點我我"},{"start":11143.738,"end":11148.669,"text":"請主席再給本席30秒。我們要反映一下有關健保總額點數的問題。"},{"start":11151.57,"end":11176.538,"text":"而我們這個整個健保點數由這個天花板嘛總額管制對不對這點您應該知道所以在這種情況下這個全國分成六大區嘛你是按照各區你給他一個天花板那你桃竹竹苗區人口在近幾年增加率是全國算非常高的那你你這個"},{"start":11178.358,"end":11194.626,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12�"},{"start":11205.66,"end":11214.848,"text":"OK,我想委員說的確實,就是說我們那個在總額支付的一個制度之下,我想這個因為人口成長,我想這個相對的應該也來做一些考量。"},{"start":11217.092,"end":11236.665,"text":"對對對對但是你們這個一定要拿出辦法來這個是不是也可以在一個月內給我們一個回應因為我覺得這個情況這個衛福部一定很清楚啊我們趕快我想這個一個月給書面的資料好不好不是資料是要回應"},{"start":11239.033,"end":11254.89,"text":"這個情況十年來其實桃竹竹苗這一趨勢一直受到很大不公平的待遇好OK我們來那個把相關的我們再會來會來待會來演繹感謝感謝委員謝謝好謝謝好謝謝許卿委員接下來我們請楊耀委員質詢"},{"start":11270.271,"end":11271.892,"text":"謝謝主席主席我請一下呂次長好請呂次長"},{"start":11279.016,"end":11296.084,"text":"市長我們今天審議老人福利法第二十二條跟第二十五條的修正草案那有關健保費的補助的部分我想要先提一個問題所以我們健保的頭髮分為"},{"start":11299.844,"end":11323.249,"text":"六類的投保對象我覺得與其從年齡來做劃分我覺得第六類的投保對象通常都是經濟比較弱勢的他可能沒有雇主也可能是人民融券"},{"start":11326.284,"end":11352.766,"text":"現在就你們的瞭解第六類的投保對象他的保費跟他的造成的經濟負擔會是怎麼樣?好,非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心,我想兩個重點第一個就是說我們現在確實就是六類數目那第六類呢其實基本上就是所謂地區人口那地區人口裡面就是剛剛陳委員所說就是說他就是說沒有任何職業或者說無一定雇主"},{"start":11353.447,"end":11354.468,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":11370.517,"end":11383.682,"text":"自營商也有可能。自營商、自營作業也在裡面。所以我意思就是說這個裡面,所以之前那個其實這個薛部長他確實也有承諾就是說我們對於第六類,對於有關於這個弱勢的部分,我們這邊確實在,我們會來趕快來有一個應用措施。對,或者是你們再把第六類再細分一下。"},{"start":11395.807,"end":11422.383,"text":"真的有需要的我覺得我們還是必須要有錢給補助我可以跟委員報告一下就是說這裡面你詳細講沒關係就是說這裡面其實也簽了我們社會救助法社會救助法裡面我們現在目前有低收中低收嘛然後低收裡面有分一二三款那其實我們現在也跟委員報告就是說我們也希望就是說在這邊其實我們知道有一些是屬於所謂禁品"},{"start":11423.183,"end":11453.183,"text":"對。"},{"start":11453.503,"end":11481.914,"text":"最需要去關注的反而是邊緣戶的部分。沒錯沒錯那你們就是趕快回去繳第六類然後不是像比較特殊的特殊金利等等這些然後又沒有福保的沒錯你們把它獨立出來我覺得這個是最需要而且是不分年齡的沒錯沒錯他是以家庭來看"},{"start":11483.054,"end":11483.975,"text":"我非常佩服委員的這個高見。謝謝。"},{"start":11512.799,"end":11526.29,"text":"因為我這邊看到的資料是未付出統計假如說全面的補助65歲以上的長者健保費呢中央必須要增加400億啊大概約359"},{"start":11530.273,"end":11541.156,"text":"那我跟委員報告就是說因為每一年我們現在高齡化嘛那預估到2054會增加到627億627億那這個其實老實說20多少20542054會到增加到627億等於double嘛double其實這樣會排擠掉我們現在目前已經推動很多很多像長照2.3.0啊我們價錢的這個費用"},{"start":11556.929,"end":11575.816,"text":"所以這個這個假如法有通過這個還是要用公務預算來當然當然對好其他的我們等一下討論法條的時候再講好的我問一下就是因為我們現在已經允許外國外國"},{"start":11578.357,"end":11601.084,"text":"五月初勞動部預告了外國人從事就業服務法的46條大概就是允許外國人可以在臺灣考取取得社公司的國保執照可是沒有辦法工作啊是不是?他考取了不能工作嗎?"},{"start":11602.005,"end":11627.417,"text":"主席他目前預告要放寬我們現在已經預告了準備要來放寬各位委員我知道這個很多事實上就是說那等於是喬生對喬生他們我覺得這也很好因為喬生他們事實上因為我們的社會工作裡面也有一些像針對新住民等等這些他需要有一些文化敏感度那其實由他們他們在語言上面這個會有很多很多的一些這個共同性所以我想這個我們會來放寬我講我的看法"},{"start":11629.838,"end":11630.058,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":11645.636,"end":11646.777,"text":"委員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":11676.236,"end":11693.983,"text":"則在這四百個小時內,他大概就必須要有,他會有適度的進入。一樣關心一下社工師。社工以及社工人員的"},{"start":11696.721,"end":11704.865,"text":"工作量越來越大。沒錯沒錯。因為他長期累積了負能量。是。那有可能他會跟著個案的"},{"start":11710.342,"end":11711.063,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":11738.144,"end":11748.747,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆"},{"start":11767.594,"end":11786.776,"text":"我們重點都在被照顧者,其實照顧者本身的問題也不少。這個次長有什麼想法?你今天可以大概講一下就好了。我想整個有關社工的勞動條件,其實委員最重要的是心理諮商。"},{"start":11788.277,"end":11806.594,"text":"具有所知像主席王詠敏王委員其實他也是長期過去也是社工方面出身非常非常關心那這個部分有關於像這個部分我們大概兩個重點第一個就是說我們從107年起我們有公益彩券的回饋金有一個提升社工人員職業安全計畫"},{"start":11807.715,"end":11831.745,"text":"這裡面包括就是說整個這一個對於我們的整個這個社公司的這一個社會心理的這一個諮商還有甚至還有包括律師諮詢費這個都從這個account他來支付另外第二個其實我們現在目前從去我們從這個去年開始有一個心理健康師針對15到30歲的這一個民眾他都有這一個他都有三次"},{"start":11832.425,"end":11844.748,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆"},{"start":11862.613,"end":11891.24,"text":"對,然後你們回去大概也再看看從107年到現在我們執行的成效怎麼樣。好的。不要讓照顧者,我還是要講一下台灣社會對照顧者的關懷跟支持顯然太少了一點。好的。好,謝謝次長,謝謝主席。好的,非常感謝楊耀文的指教,謝謝。"},{"start":11893.291,"end":11918.881,"text":"好,謝謝楊耀委員。本日會議詢答全部結束。委員陳金輝、盧憲、易圖權及蘇清泉、張嘉俊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。現在作以下決議。一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者。請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其所定。現在請宣讀提案條文內容。"},{"start":11919.864,"end":11933.237,"text":"老人福利法條文修正草案、委員許宇甄等22人提案、委員馬文君等16人提案、委員張嘉郡等20人提案、國民黨黨團提案、委員黃建豪等17人提案、委員王育敏等19人提案、臺灣民眾黨黨團提案、現行法條文對照表。"},{"start":11936.3,"end":11962.675,"text":"委員許宇甄等22人提案增訂第二十二條之一如下:「老人或申報老人為受撫養人之納稅義務人就參加全民健康保險之保險費經稅捐基徵機關核定之最近一年綜合所得總額合計未達申報標準或綜合所得稅稅率未達百分之二十者由中央主管機關應與補助。」委員張嘉郡等20人國民黨黨團提案第二十二條修正第一項及第二項如下"},{"start":11963.235,"end":11980.321,"text":"老人或其法定撫養醫務人就老人參加全民健康保險之保險費經稅捐基深機關核定其最近一年綜合所得總額合計未達申報標準或綜合所得稅稅率未達百分之二十者由中央主管機關全額補助。部分負擔費用或保險給付為涵蓋致醫療費用無力負擔者"},{"start":11982.822,"end":11993.207,"text":"由中央主管機關全額補助現行第二項移列為第三項委員黃建豪等17人提案第二十二條老人參加全民健康保險之保險費經稅捐積增機關核定其最近一年綜合所得總額合計未達申報標準或綜合所得稅稅率未達百分之二十者"},{"start":12000.391,"end":12024.329,"text":"由中央主管機關全額補助,老人或其法定撫養醫務人就老人參加全民健康保險之部分負擔費用或保險給付未涵蓋之醫療費用無力負擔者由中央主管機關全額補助,前二項補助之對象、項目、基準及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。委員王玉敏等19人提案第二十二條修正第二項及第三項如下。"},{"start":12025.169,"end":12037.279,"text":"前項之保險費經稅捐積增機關核定其最近一年綜合所得總額合計未達申報標準或綜合所得稅稅率未達一定級距者由中央主管機關補助之。前二項補助之對象、項目、基準及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。於與現行法同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十二條修正第二項如下。"},{"start":12048.368,"end":12064.219,"text":"前項之保險費經稅捐基深機關核定其最近一年綜合所得總額合計未達申報標準或綜合所得稅稅率未達百分之二十者由……未達百分之二十者中央主管機關應補助之于與委員王育敏等19人提案同"},{"start":12064.719,"end":12089.968,"text":"委員馬文君等16人提案第二十五條增訂第三項如下:「年滿七十五歲以上之老人,其必要陪伴者以一人為縣,得享有前二項之優待措施,予以現行法同。」台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十五條增訂第三項如下:「老人應需要陪伴者,其必要陪伴者以一人為縣,得享有前二項之優待措施,予以現行法同。」宣讀完畢。"},{"start":12092.09,"end":12107.833,"text":"好,謝謝。那上午出席跟修法無關的官員可以先行離開。好,那我們現在進行老人福利法第二十二條、第二十二條之一及第二十五條條文修正草案、繼期案之逐條審查。請委員表示意見。好,來,我們先請許宇甄委員。"},{"start":12116.672,"end":12135.246,"text":"本席提出的這個針對增訂22條之一的老人福利法的這個草案主要是因為因為其實我們現在的狀況是因為各個縣市目前針對65歲以上的長者的健保費的補助其實都不一樣那目前大概就六都跟基隆"},{"start":12135.746,"end":12158.766,"text":"而有補助而且補助的標準也不一那因為正在一個憲法平權的一個概念其實我覺得針對全國的老者不應該因為他居住的縣市的不同該縣市的財務狀況不同而有補助的不同的一個標準所以我這邊特別提出了要增訂老人福利法第二十二條之一希望能夠就"},{"start":12159.526,"end":12161.468,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12187.504,"end":12210.159,"text":"謝謝許宇甄委員接下來我們請楊耀委員這個我看了一下是有大概有類似排富的形態可是65歲以上多數是退休的所以稅率本來就很難達到20%這個第一點第二點就是我覺得"},{"start":12217.564,"end":12222.471,"text":"還是就是健保費的政府補貼還是應該要用經濟的強弱來做區分補助"},{"start":12232.945,"end":12246.328,"text":"年齡可能比較不是一個比較妥適的方法而且剛剛我問過了大概每年要350幾億然後30年後要到600這個會不會造成國家的財政負擔這個也要考慮"},{"start":12260.211,"end":12278.226,"text":"再加上前兩個禮拜討論的建保點值保障議員一點議員就會變成好像整個建保制度從支出到收入"},{"start":12279.947,"end":12305.697,"text":"有很多東西都是由政府政府以以公務預算來做補助這個會不會破壞到原本保險的本質這個我提供這樣子的意見供各位委員做參考謝謝好謝謝我們請陳昭志委員"},{"start":12312.166,"end":12339.025,"text":"剛剛謝謝主席剛剛楊耀文提到的部分我們臺灣的這個醫療健康醫療支出本來就是落後了這個所謂OECD國家許多如果純粹就就是所謂NH National Health Expenditure我們才6.1%百分之GDP百分之6.1OECD國家平均百分之九我們是倒數第二名就這個部分連韓國都是以這個方法計算大概他是八八或九日本是十一左右"},{"start":12339.765,"end":12340.987,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案。」案。"},{"start":12358.706,"end":12360.206,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":12382.111,"end":12382.632,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":12402.573,"end":12403.273,"text":"委員許宇甄等22人擬具"},{"start":12430.256,"end":12430.576,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":12450.872,"end":12475.328,"text":"我想請教就是說如果切65歲以上就是健保完全由中央支付那保費由中央全部支付那這樣子除了我們剛剛講的這個所得稅率未達百分之二十可能會增加三百多億嘛那在健保方面在健保方面你們會增加多少"},{"start":12476.229,"end":12489.851,"text":"則說原本可能是會有一些收入那這樣子如果是全部由中央支付的話那健保這邊到底會或者是說減少收入啦到底會減少多少"},{"start":12496.478,"end":12518.253,"text":"報告委員如果說那個全部補助那個65歲向老人的健保費那由公務預算去依註嗎所以我們健保的基金我們預估啦大概113年的統計大概會少就是會短收將近400億左右這樣子就是會基金的收入會短收400億"},{"start":12520.259,"end":12535.266,"text":"所以如果短收400億的話那你們這短收的部分是還需要公務預算來補貼或者是說你們本身就目前基金預算就已經很有餘裕來可以"},{"start":12536.507,"end":12555.335,"text":"目前基金預算的部分因為政府在今年度已經公務預算預租了兩百億特別預算預租了兩百億去年一二年預租了兩百四十億所以目前我們在計算我們的財務的部分其實到今年底還好就是還可以達到安全準備"},{"start":12556.675,"end":12557.656,"text":"議員馬文君等20人擬具"},{"start":12586.515,"end":12590.517,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":12612.887,"end":12615.689,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12634.92,"end":12655.116,"text":"我覺得你們應該要再精算那我是不是可以建議主席今天這個是不是可以擇期再審那等到這個部長回來之後我覺得很多問題應該部長回來之後應該再把你們所精算出來的再跟委員會這邊做報告"},{"start":12657.585,"end":12684.799,"text":"接下來我們請楊耀委員發言我也先復議黃秀芳委員的主張就是我們應該等到部長跟健保署署長回歸再審一次不過我們今天還是委員會還是召開我覺得陳昭芝委員講的沒有錯就是我們可能在健康投資的部分"},{"start":12686.44,"end":12686.9,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":12711.276,"end":12724.486,"text":"老人看病的比例次數比較多,這個也是事實,因為人本來就這樣子。免健保費跟免部分負擔,哪個方向比較好?"},{"start":12731.751,"end":12751.433,"text":"這個是不是大家也可以考慮一下就是說他看病的次數比較多那減免減或免他的部分負擔是不是更符合實際的需要這個提供大家做一下參考"},{"start":12753.559,"end":12754.26,"text":"委員陳昌智委員"},{"start":12776.459,"end":12782.741,"text":"人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2會期社會福利及衛生"},{"start":12803.388,"end":12809.094,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具 «老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆"},{"start":12820.706,"end":12820.886,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":12835.683,"end":12836.383,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":12864.676,"end":12865.517,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":12887.33,"end":12887.43,"text":"二、委員"},{"start":12901.69,"end":12902.11,"text":"二、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具"},{"start":12926.004,"end":12952.651,"text":"好,兩位要發言出委員會也是要介紹不過我還是覺得也沒差一兩個禮拜就是等部長跟署長回來我們再做一次充分的討論那大家把應該講的講完再出委員會好,那謝謝各位委員的發言那我想的確部長不在"},{"start":12954.138,"end":12982.868,"text":"現在還在國外那我們可以等部長部長回來我們就會做決定跟處理那這兩個禮拜的時間就拜託這個次長相關的一些數據就是在整理分析的更清楚因為委員提案目前各縣是有是那個未達5%就是健保補助的你們今天缺乏這部分資料好不好那就把這個資料都準備清楚那我們則期再審議那現在做一下"},{"start":12985.021,"end":12995.567,"text":"決議:「老人福利法第二十二條之一及第二十五條條文修正草案 令則其繼續審查。」本次會議到此結束,現在散會。"},{"start":13044.008,"end":13048.71,"text":"委員張嘉郡等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案 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PAO CANADA 字幕組"},{"start":1846.653,"end":1849.188,"text":"好,請主任秘書報告出席委員人數"},{"start":1850.014,"end":1875.691,"text":"包括委員會、出席委員與主法定人數好 主席宣布現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國113年5月9日星期三九十一分至十二十二時分地點群仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福等14人列席委員鄭天才等11人列席官員行政主席總處主席長"},{"start":1876.973,"end":1884.212,"text":"陳淑芝等．主席、郭昭季委員、郭文報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二、邀請行政院主席總署"},{"start":1885.706,"end":1909.897,"text":"陳主席長淑芝率所屬單位主管列席業報告．並備質詢。經行政院主席總署．主席長陳淑芝提出報告後藉由委員林德甫本事務人提出質詢。均經行政院主席總署．主席長陳淑芝等予以答覆。決定。依報告就訊答完畢。而委員執行會及答覆或請補充資訊。請行政院主席總署於一周內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從期鎖定。宣傳完畢。"},{"start":1912.603,"end":1935.958,"text":"好,那因我們現場的委員還不足法定人數,請醫事人宣讀今日議程。邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就:「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度．並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作．進行專題報告．並備質詢。」宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1938.052,"end":1966.026,"text":"好原理介紹在場委員首先要介紹的是我們財委會資深委員吳秉瑞吳委員好請接著介紹與會官員財政部我們的部長莊翠雲莊部長國庫署陳柏成署長稅務署宋秀林署長公務署彭英偉署長國財安署曾國基署長"},{"start":1967.612,"end":1996.594,"text":"財政資訊中心張文席主任台灣銀行呂傑成呂董事長施瑪麗總經理中國輸入銀行理事主席台灣土地銀行董事長謝娟娟、謝董事長何一鳴總經理總經理沒有來嗎?"},{"start":2004.278,"end":2026.185,"text":"中國輸入銀行戴登山理事主席謝富華總經理兆豐銀行雷仲達董事長胡光華總經理地銀行邱月琴董事長李嘉祥總經理華南銀行張雲鵬董事長"},{"start":2032.339,"end":2055.805,"text":"黃俊志總經理合作金庫林衍茂董事長蘇佐正總經理彰化銀行林中元董事長周朝榮總經理台灣中小企業銀行劉佩真董事長張智堅總經理"},{"start":2061.732,"end":2082.725,"text":"我們金管會彭金隆彭主委中規處胡哲華胡處長銀行局莊秀元莊局長政區局高金平高副局長保險局司瓊華司局長檢察局張子昊張局長"},{"start":2090.775,"end":2119.598,"text":"財政法院政交所股份有限公司總經理簡立宗簡總經理財政法院金融聯合徵信中心我們郭建宗郭董事長張國明總經理我們金融研訓院黃崇哲黃院長我們補充介紹我們另外一位資深委員林德福林委員"},{"start":2124.309,"end":2126.451,"text":"請問各位委員對上次議事錄有無異議請問兩位委員對議事錄沒有異議、無異議、議事錄確定"},{"start":2136.001,"end":2155.878,"text":"好,今日議程安排邀請財政部莊部長金管會彭主委率所屬相關單位就如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度．並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作進行專題報告現在請財政部莊部長進行專題報告"},{"start":2165.407,"end":2180.016,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員安排相關部會就如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書以及公司治理評鑑制度．並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作進行專題報告"},{"start":2181.336,"end":2208.841,"text":"請就本部業務部分做簡要的說明首先本部推動成立USG倡議平台介於永續經營是全球的共識本部在110年折成第一金控召集公股金融事業共同推動成立USG的倡議平台並且依循金管會的公司治理3.0永續發展藍圖以及綠色行動方案2.0的推動措施以"},{"start":2209.821,"end":2233.336,"text":"組織與ESG資訊接入、責任金融以及環境及社會績效為三大主軸具域執行．並就短、中、長期三個階段來定定推動超過35項的具體執行方案本部持續地督導公股金融事業積極執行相關的措施來善盡企業的社會責任、致力永續金融的發展"},{"start":2234.136,"end":2259.171,"text":"第二個部分報告公股金融事業編制永續報告書的一個情形本部的ESG倡議平台具體執行方案包括了依循全球報告倡議組織準則編制ESG企業社會責任報告書並且委請第三方辦理驗證等項目目前公股金融事業都已落實執行ESG的倡議平台具體執行方案編制永續報告書"},{"start":2262.087,"end":2289.816,"text":"有關公司治理評鑑的成效根據財團法人中華民國證券暨期貨市場發展基金會113年公布的112年度公司治理評鑑的結果全部952家受評的上市公司本部的6家上市公股金融事業排名均位於7個級距中的前2個級距其中第一金控以及彰化銀行位居第一級距也就是前5%"},{"start":2291.737,"end":2313.859,"text":"顯見上市公股金融事業．積極推動公司治理成效．獲得肯定。有關公股金融辦理受信業務的情形代前偵審作業要強化ESG評估公股銀行透過查詢相關機關購的網站來檢視受信戶是不是有為污染源的列管對象"},{"start":2314.5,"end":2321.471,"text":"或者是遭環境相關法規的裁處以及有沒有違反勞動、射送案件等相關的負面資"},{"start":2324.106,"end":2350.001,"text":"並將它納入風險評級．根據這個結果來進行分級管理．作為調整受信條件以及利率審核的一個參考．另外本部也督請各公股金融事業根據ESG的三大面向．全面揭露因ESG風險而至有條件通過．以及未核准的貸款件數．並於它的網站來做公告"},{"start":2351.175,"end":2375.866,"text":"有關貸後管理機制的確保要落實執行ESG公股銀行貸後持續關注借款人的資金用途是不是符合規定並且透過查詢相關機關的網站了解受信戶有沒有在受信期間違反環保、公安以及主管機關的規範以確保受信戶各項的營運活動都能夠落實執行ESG的原則"},{"start":2376.866,"end":2395.195,"text":"有關光電產業貸後管理這個部分我們會等到經濟部訂定相關規範並建置平台揭露相關資訊後公股銀行貸後管理的機制也會把它納入查詢該平台的資訊如果受信戶有違反ESG的重大情形或成為高風險者"},{"start":2396.115,"end":2411.355,"text":"那麼就會啟動相關的控管機制．例如要求受信戶出具獨立第三方機構的環評報告．並給予定期的檢視．待放合約的期間是否有遭主管機關的採取．以及擴大並強化檢核公安案件的範圍等等．"},{"start":2412.236,"end":2431.25,"text":"以追蹤受信戶的改善情形．並採行利率加碼減少額度．停止動用或視為到期等相關的措施．來確保受信戶他是符合ESG永續金融的相關規範．本部高度重視ESG的創意平台推動成效．除了暗記追蹤者．"},{"start":2431.77,"end":2448.014,"text":"平台35項的具體執行方案的執行情形之外並且會列入公股金融事業負責人的績效評鑑也會在每季召開的金融事業務的研討會裡要督導公股金融事業落實ESG的理念"},{"start":2448.994,"end":2472.806,"text":"積極的推行永續金融本部基於股權管理機關的立場督請公股銀行依照主管機關金管會的規定伴流然後也要滾動精進受信審核管理的機制來兼顧金融業務的推展以及落實責任金融發揮金融機構引導企業檢探轉型旅行環境保護以及社會責任的功能"},{"start":2473.807,"end":2478.515,"text":"來達成國家淨零排放的目標以上說明 敬請各位委員會與指教謝謝"},{"start":2491.007,"end":2505.652,"text":"主席、各位委員、現場媒體朋友大家好某人國人會今天邀請金管會就本議題提出專案報告本會推動永續金融系整合金融資源支持淨零轉型及永續發展"},{"start":2506.912,"end":2526.763,"text":"並引導金融市場及整體產業重視氣候變遷與社會議題本會參考國際間永續金融主要做法及國內推動狀況陸續發布上市貴公司永續發展路徑圖綠色金融行動方案3.0以及上市貴公司永續發展行動方案以下將就三個面向向各位說明"},{"start":2527.483,"end":2548.756,"text":"一、透過公司治理評鑑及永續報告書提升我國資本市場競爭力。一、本會督導證交所自103年起辦理公司治理評鑑。二、每年由本會、證券周邊單位代表及外部學者專家共同組成之公司治理評鑑委員會﹐定期檢討精進指標﹐並持續參著國際趨勢﹐檢討精進各個面指標﹐並因應永續發展將公司治理評鑑轉型為ESG評鑑。"},{"start":2557.455,"end":2570.551,"text":"二、近年本會以督導政交所及櫃買中心推動強化永續報告書相關措施一、截至110年12月31日共有887家已申報永續報告書並自114年起全體上市櫃公司均應編制永續報告書二、"},{"start":2578.54,"end":2590.157,"text":"112年起上市會公司應與永續報告書以專章方式揭露氣候相關資訊114年起分階段揭露溫室氣體減量基準年減量目標策略及行動計畫"},{"start":2592.629,"end":2615.717,"text":"3.本會113年修正相關處理準則,要求上市櫃公司將永續資訊管理作業納入內部控制制度。4.以督請證交所及櫃買中心持續擴大永續報告書審的廣度與深度。5.建置ESG數位平台,協助上市櫃公司編制永續報告書,並於今年5月6日上線。"},{"start":2617.957,"end":2636.382,"text":"導入永續金融評鑑一、透過永續金融評鑑促使金融業重視ESG議題本會已於112年開始辦理永續金融評鑑評鑑對象為金融機構初期公布銀行證券及保險公司三頁排名前20%金融機構名單"},{"start":2639.735,"end":2663.707,"text":"評鑑內容包含永續發展綜合指標、環境、社會、公司治理、三支柱指標構面二、永續金融評鑑指標制設定包含了監理期待例如辨識客戶面對實體及轉型風險情形促進客戶制定淨零方案並加速永續轉型方案等三、將檢探目標制設定、揭露及落實情形納入評鑑指標四、將持續參考國際ESG發展趨勢"},{"start":2669.61,"end":2688.289,"text":"滾動調整永續金融評鑑指標推動金融機構探盤查引導企業低碳轉型本會推動金融業一時程揭露及確信範疇一、範疇二及範疇三是碳排並鼓勵金融業透過與客戶互動一和方式訂定減碳策略及目標之基礎"},{"start":2689.33,"end":2712.599,"text":"一、一百一十三年起掩體金融業減碳目標設定及策略規劃指引,促使金融業積極落實節能減碳及發揮資金與義和的影響力。三、協助金融業取得企業ESG相關資訊,強化ESG資訊平台。一、首先本會議請廉政中心建置企業ESG資訊平台。"},{"start":2714.402,"end":2735.795,"text":"本會督導政交所參考國際永續相關準則於113年推出新版ESG數位平台而內容涵蓋全體上市櫃公司應申報之ESG指標數由29項擴增至97項以提升整體金融市場永續資訊透明度引導金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作"},{"start":2736.836,"end":2749.831,"text":"本會議定定獎勵本國銀行辦理六大核心戰略產業放款方案自110年4月起實施截至113年3月底放款優惠已達2.8兆元本會議於103年督導銀行公會參採次到原則納入"},{"start":2755.116,"end":2774.152,"text":"會員授信準則第20條之五規範銀行辦理企業授信審核時以審酌借款戶是否善盡環境保護、企業誠信及社會責任為督促銀行確實將ESG因素納入授信審查及貸後管理本會以督導銀行工會提具以下強化措施"},{"start":2775.573,"end":2791.556,"text":"銀行辦理授信業務評估因依永續經濟活動認定參考指引．判斷企業是否符合永續經濟活動．例如違反環境、勞動及相關法令等．並於112年10月25被查銀行公會所報相關治理規範之修正．"},{"start":2793.098,"end":2806.336,"text":"貸放後持續關注企業戶營運．發生涉及負面公司治理及社會責任議題．對ESG具重大危害情形時．銀行應追查原因及時掌握情況．並視個案情形採取必要之措施"},{"start":2807.85,"end":2828.327,"text":"永續發展議題需要跨域、跨界的共同合作．因此本會將持續透過公司協力．完善永續金融生態系．而共同落實減碳轉型．達成我國2050淨零碳排及永續發展的目標．以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝謝謝彭主委的報告"},{"start":2830.799,"end":2848.693,"text":"接著我們開始進行詢答先做以下宣告每位催促委員發言時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間為5分鐘今天上午10點30分截止發言登記現在依照登記順序請登記第一位林德福委員資訊"},{"start":2860.609,"end":2877.934,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是請財政部莊部長．有請莊部長．還有金管會的彭主委．有請彭主委委員好部長還有主委你好那我首先請彭主委"},{"start":2879.676,"end":2887.518,"text":"我想這個美債殖利率飆升美股大盤預證華麗那到從收黑到414點收盤創五月份以來的最低點反觀從4月19號我們整個台股大盤最近從低點的19291"},{"start":2903.541,"end":2903.861,"text":"臺股的表現與美股脫鉤?"},{"start":2919.016,"end":2941.711,"text":"謝謝委員因為身為這個政經市場主管機關我們關注的是整個市場的所謂的制度當然台股在全球的股市當然會受到美國股市及國際情勢的影響那有沒有脫鉤嗎?你認為呢?其實台灣有自己的基本面當然也會受到影響所以說就是"},{"start":2943.712,"end":2949.979,"text":"當然我們關注的是整個制度面會不會有影響到我們市場的安定但是所有的國際上面的因素應該都對台股會有影響"},{"start":2966.945,"end":2991.177,"text":"主委,台股處在高檔,目前你認為持續樂觀還是要居高思維?跟委員報告,其實我覺得股票市場短期會受到消息面的影響,長期還是會回到基本面。我們看國發會的景氣對策訊號,我們4月是在2022年3月以後第一次轉為黃紅燈,也是顯現我們的經濟情緒是審慎樂觀。"},{"start":2995.519,"end":2998.222,"text":"中信金和星光金整個合併傳言四起,金管會擔任主委你有什麼看法?"},{"start":3012.407,"end":3032.047,"text":"市場上面有關合併的案子都是市場上面的一些的傳言我想金管會身為金融市場的主管機關一定會密切關注所有的動向但是對於傳聞的案例金管會無法評論謝謝好那我請教要是金控合併對整個金融圈到底有什麼影響"},{"start":3033.462,"end":3052.248,"text":"金融的整併牽涉到包括市場競爭以及市場的安定我想除了金管會還有市場競爭、公民會還有市場結合的議題我想它的層面非常的複雜主委因為我們陳組長昨天被刑時說目前整個情況持續是看好"},{"start":3058.14,"end":3073.411,"text":"那今年整個經濟成長率至少可以達到3.5%美國道窮走勢或許是反映居高思維那我請問主委你認為臺股履創新高到底是提醒"},{"start":3075.153,"end":3086.063,"text":"我們要如何去提醒投資大眾把台股看成是已經預先反映未來整個經濟走勢必須居高思維還是整個國內整個經濟情勢緩談還不到高點"},{"start":3091.186,"end":3113.939,"text":"謝謝那委員我剛剛跟您報告過金管會對未來的大盤我們不做預測但是我們還是要提醒所有投資人注意風險然後深深選股那你認為我們整個台股的大盤未來還有沒有機會再創新高跟委員報告就是我剛剛講金管會對這個我們未來我們不做任何的預期這樣齁好那個部長"},{"start":3115.08,"end":3136.252,"text":"我想為了避免租賃公司換款給年輕小白．以導致出現債台高築甚至於紙債負償媒體報導財政部已經號令八大行庫強化貸後的管理據金融業者透露有些行庫已經"},{"start":3137.313,"end":3139.955,"text":"跟委員報告有關融資助令業的一些待放上的社會的一個關注"},{"start":3162.847,"end":3190.236,"text":"那本部是在3月28號例行的公股金融事業研討會裡面有提醒我們的公股銀行要橫著租賃業融資租賃業的一個營運特性然後精進徵售性以及貸後管理的一些措施那至於並沒有叫公股銀行而且就我們了解公股銀行也沒有做下面比如說要簽承諾書啦或者是說保證資金不可以去做先買後付以及如果違反承諾就要全部收回貸款"},{"start":3190.896,"end":3193.579,"text":"因為媒體報導的做法內容是由金融業者要求簽署確決書拒絕所獲得的資金不會流向先買後戶業者"},{"start":3206.391,"end":3224.98,"text":"接著查核資金的用途是我和原申請、申貸的計畫有沒有相符若不相符那整個銀行將提前收回一部分甚至於全部收回資金那請問你認為這樣的一個方式是不是有效的貸後管理的做法"},{"start":3225.88,"end":3237.172,"text":"跟委員報告財政部是在3月28號提醒我們的供股航空要注意融資駐令業的一個營運特性但是並沒有要求供股金融事業要求如同剛剛委員所說的要寫所謂的切結書、承諾書或提前收回這些"},{"start":3240.271,"end":3261.359,"text":"並沒有做這樣的一個具體的這樣的要求那公股金融事業對於相關資金的貸後管理是本來就要都要在做的也就是我剛才貸放給你是做什麼樣的用途那你是不是有按照這個樣計畫使用同時我們也知道臺北市租賃業的工會已經對於所謂的先買後付以及車輛交易的業務也訂立一個自律規範"},{"start":3262.219,"end":3262.419,"text":"那我請教"},{"start":3288.646,"end":3310.235,"text":"你認為工會這樣的要求執行上會不會有困難度啊這個部分呢我想在工會竟然已經有註定商業同業工會竟然已經訂了這個自律規範那我們認為這個就是應該要他們要去做這樣子然後我們公股金融事業在受信的時候也要去注意他們的借款戶有沒有合乎這個自律規範"},{"start":3311.495,"end":3331.336,"text":"這樣喔對對於金融業者貸放後必須強化貸後的管理來追查資金的流向以避免貸放金額流入先買後戶的業務那媒體報導核庫金控董事長表示應該要由銀行公會來訂定一致性的規範也就是"},{"start":3331.997,"end":3343.206,"text":"公民銀行都應該要受到規範約束才能夠解決金流破口的問題那我請問部長貸後的整個管理"},{"start":3345.014,"end":3368.087,"text":"做法是由銀行公會統一一致性來規範來約束公民銀行的提議你認為是不是比較理想還是你認為金管會應該要有進一步主導貸後管理規範的必要我想這個涉及到金管會的權責我們尊重金管會的一個看法彭主委那你有什麼看法"},{"start":3369.136,"end":3384.138,"text":"有關那個全體銀行比如說貸後管理的部分我想這一項就是我們金管會會注意的項目那至於說剛剛委員提到這部分我們會再請銀行公會來研議因為你等於是現在都是由公會來主導嘛"},{"start":3384.755,"end":3384.895,"text":"主委"},{"start":3401.039,"end":3403.761,"text":"根據財政部統計,截至今年一月底,八家公股銀行對融資租賃業貸款餘額合計1359億元。"},{"start":3423.156,"end":3436.648,"text":"請問主委金管會到底有沒有民營銀行、行庫對這個融資、租貸業或貸款餘額的統計數字有沒有委員如果允許我可不可以請銀行局局長跟您回覆可以啊謝謝"},{"start":3441.356,"end":3469.759,"text":"報告委員我們是有個別去統計就是各個銀行對於融資公司的放款那你公立製造那私立的你知不知道到底有多少我們也有在調查只有調查而已你到目前沒有數字嗎我們其實是有數字有數字那你可不可以公布啊因為才讓大家了解說到底公司銀行貸款給這些租賃業者到底一共有加起來加總有多少"},{"start":3470.259,"end":3486.869,"text":"我們就是個別金融機構的數字我們大概不太方便總數你總有吧對總體的數字我們是可以那可以你現在講啊大概是3000億左右3000億對啊私有的銀行貸3000億那公有的是1359所有的銀行所以公私利加起來3000億左右對"},{"start":3492.492,"end":3515.209,"text":"因為其實財委會會排這個主要當然我們是希望說透過這個由銀行公會甚至於制定貸後管理比較好的一個規範這個也比較適合那由金管會訂定你認為是比較合適還是那個主委還是認為由現在這些公會他們來制定比較適當"},{"start":3516.71,"end":3528.468,"text":"我想過去我們會循過去的往例來處理這個問題當然還是先由工會來做相關的規範我是希望你們在這方面要去重視謝謝謝謝林大夫的質詢 請接著我們請吳秉樂委員質詢"},{"start":3544.727,"end":3547.75,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會彭主委有請彭主委委員好主委好今天要討論這個議題我覺得那個範圍很大尤其是節能減碳中間這個碳"},{"start":3561.277,"end":3588.592,"text":"那是現在是一個很夯的這個話題可是你了不了解其實並不是大家都是朝著一致的看法像美國總統拜登他當然非常重視這個議題民主黨很重視這個議題因為從高爾開始就是一直在講這個全球暖化的問題但是川普卻認為這是一個假議題當然川普的講法有點極端"},{"start":3589.807,"end":3609.606,"text":"那是兩種完全不同的思考的方式那我們現在台灣照現在的講法都是一面倒都是朝向這個近鄰這個方向這樣子是對的嗎有沒有另外一種思考是不是稍微要平衡思考一下呢"},{"start":3611.247,"end":3637.489,"text":"謝謝委員其實有關減碳當然在不管是就我所知啦就學術或是在很多其實是有爭議不過現在的主流思維還是跟我們現在所做的方向是一致的主流思維啦主流思維要減碳然後現在碳權要買賣有人就說這是一筆好生意比爾蓋茲在美國買了非常多的農場他準備要大賺一筆"},{"start":3638.939,"end":3663.994,"text":"因為農場只要有種樹只要種綠色植物它的碳的買賣它就可以源源不斷的收入也有這樣子的講法同一個時間全世界也沒有一致的標準如果台灣對碳權的要求這麼的先進這麼的前衛甚至要達到跟歐洲最先進地方一樣的標準它的優勝劣敗有沒有評估過"},{"start":3670.994,"end":3695.225,"text":"這個部分的話我想說我們現在以金管會的立場我們大概會從兩個方向走啦一個就是金融業的本身另外就是我們透過上市會公司的管理去導引大家往這個方向走有,你的報告裡面是這樣講的對對當然就是說這個我們的目標其實設的比較遠以後但是我們希望這既然是國家的政策我們就逐步來推動當然這個評估的部分呢我們是按照我們自己金管會這樣的規劃進程在進行"},{"start":3697.984,"end":3723.681,"text":"好 那你有沒有聽過概念叫綠色通膨因為這些都是要成本的嘛我舉個例子我剛剛為什麼講說全世界標準不一樣會產生問題你拿這樣的簡單標準要求發展中國家他有能力可以遵守嗎要求中國他有辦法可以遵守嗎要求非洲、中亞這些國家他有辦法遵守嗎"},{"start":3726.034,"end":3746.828,"text":"顯然短期之內不可能嘛那當他不遵守的時候台灣的貿易處在一個先天上不利的地位因為我們被中國長期欺負打壓所以我們很多的國際之間的貿易組織我們是進不去的我們本身在台灣的製造業關稅平均起來就比別的地方製造業要再高那當其他國家不用"},{"start":3751.608,"end":3761.594,"text":"這些碳費不用這些成本的時候臺灣卻急著要把它抓進來這某一個角度是不是在大戰略上面要讓臺灣的製造業要離開臺灣因為成本墊高了之後"},{"start":3767.096,"end":3784.546,"text":"有一部分啦當然有一部分說我在技術上可以超越我那非常先進的企業我不受這個控制我不受這個影響但是那一些為了2%、3%利潤在苦苦求生謀卒生存的這些中小企業在這個再被墊高之後他如何生存呢"},{"start":3786.565,"end":3802.504,"text":"我們在推動永續金融裡面有一個很重要是要協助企業永續轉型我們透過我們的投融資貸放來協助所以像我們推動一些所謂綠色的放款綠色的金融商品其中某一部分就是要協助我們比如說企業來"},{"start":3803.365,"end":3805.126,"text":"轉型跟理論講起來都很容易啊坐在學術殿堂或是在國會裡面這樣談都垮垮而談很容易啊問題是到了製造業"},{"start":3832.116,"end":3834.897,"text":"到了這些中小企業他面臨的就是生存的問題耶近年轉型貸款給他要求他要升級有這麼容易嗎我記得之前有政治人物說2030年所有的燃油機車都不能用了結果引起多大的風暴你知道嗎好那我現在再問你我們就不要講到這個中小企業了中鋼就好中鋼他一年的探權要交多少錢"},{"start":3861.069,"end":3881.639,"text":"到目前這樣算起來至少幾十億以上那因為中國的大量傾銷我們的鋼板就已經很難生存了在全世界就幾乎都沒有競爭力了因為中國是用國家在後面補貼的嘛他是一個不公平的貿易嘛那這時候我們自己再把自己再加上去然後跟你競爭的那個企業不用他不用去這些成本那到底要如何競爭啊"},{"start":3888.639,"end":3903.652,"text":"現在要問的是一個這樣的問題當然我今天問的這個問題可能說跟這個顯學啦 跟同事說大家就是要走淨零轉型走淨零轉型 要談也可以談啊問題是你有沒有思考到另一面的問題這個速度如果太快或是說這一些的配套如果不足"},{"start":3910.39,"end":3929.377,"text":"每一家的中小企業就是面臨這些員工的生存問題製造業到底 台灣到底要不要 你是要趕出去嗎還是說台灣都不要低階製造業還是要像美國一樣過去全球化讓它的製造業到全世界去然後現在才開始用大量的這個政策補貼要求製造業重返美國"},{"start":3932.217,"end":3950.963,"text":"這個思考不是這麼簡單說我這個淨體轉型大家都希望環境越來越好有誰希望環境壞但是問題是要做得到啊那這一方面如果你們吹太暗的時候吹得太快我很擔心台灣社會到底受得了受不了"},{"start":3953.02,"end":3976.801,"text":"我們從金管會的立場我們對剛才講金融機構跟上市櫃公司的管理上面我們現在也有體察到這一點我們採取都是用鼓勵的措施而不是用強制的這樣的措施就剛才那個講這個ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑我們都是採用鼓勵的方式用導引畢竟剛才牽涉到比如說我們的探權、探費還有探稅的問題都不是金管會所能主政"},{"start":3977.523,"end":3999.709,"text":"我知道不是你們的主政了我今天因為今天要談這個問題在談這個問題我就主要要問你嘛因為你要了解你要思考的是全體而不是政治這個東西你要走在眾人前的一步可以引導眾人眾人看得到你走得太遠看不到的時候比較先知啊自古先知都是寂寞的因為跟不上啊"},{"start":4000.598,"end":4007.603,"text":"我在同樣的邏輯思考方式 我要來請教你另外一個問題你獨立董事現在要弄心智嘛"},{"start":4008.642,"end":4034.667,"text":"那現在就是2024年要先適用的出資申請股票上市櫃的公司還有實收資本額達新台幣100億的公司金融保險業的上市櫃公司你們現在對於獨立董事人數不得少於三人且不得少於董事席是三分之一獨立董事半數以上連續任期不得超過三屆有提出這樣的政策嗎"},{"start":4036.035,"end":4044.108,"text":"然後學界立刻就說那人才荒啊你獨立董事的人要從哪裡來啊哪裡有這麼多的獨立董事可以用啊是不是要思考這個問題"},{"start":4047.604,"end":4069.611,"text":"謝謝委員那其實我們對於這個獨立董事任期就有一個上限規定是要考慮到他的獨立性的維持那再來我們有那個政績會有個獨立獨立董事人才庫上面也有協助上市櫃公司去尋找他的獨立董事的夠不夠現在應該有1500位符合資格的候選人在那個資料庫上面"},{"start":4070.233,"end":4083.622,"text":"那你總共要用多少人如果照這個標準你總共要用多少人1700多家上市櫃公司到2027年的時候全部至少要3個以上那就有5000多人而且不可以連任"},{"start":4085.27,"end":4113.124,"text":"有一半以上不可以連任三次以上喔對對不能連任三屆那現在是主要是我們現在根據我們的法律規定一個人可以兼任四個獨立董事所以我們有1500個人這樣我們初步的評估應該是現在是量量是夠只是說適不適合那是由他們各個公司來評估那所以這個人才顧1500多人他們就可以承認獨統俱樂部跟公司沒有關係我有這個資格你們就得來騙我不然你人才方不夠啊"},{"start":4114.486,"end":4135.646,"text":"這是供給跟需求的問題啊這個是簡單的數學問題嘛所以我具備這個資格假設有一天我不當立委了我律師我就掛進人才庫那不相干不認識的這些公司就來請我當讀董是這樣的概念嗎那我對公司完全沒有股份公司的經營好壞我要如何負責"},{"start":4138.035,"end":4157.64,"text":"人才庫只是提供一個資訊給我們上市會公司來參考那至於說 是不適合專長服不符合我想是有的律師哪有專長不符合公司的董事、董監事、律師、會計師都是非常符合資格的條件那我只是要跟你講說 制度的推行"},{"start":4158.78,"end":4186.492,"text":"有它的合理性但是要循序漸進你要抓住那個tempo啦你有的時候太急、太趕另外一點過去公司的設計就我大學的時候念的公司法回去當董監事是因為我對這間公司我有一個大的持股所以公司好我會跟著好公司不好我會跟著不好因為是我的財產那如果現在都大量用獨董公司沒有持股也可以都用這樣的概念來的時候那公司經營的成敗"},{"start":4189.669,"end":4191.751,"text":"謝謝吳秉瑞委員的質詢 接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":4228.497,"end":4256.144,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請金管會的彭主委以及政交所的簡總經理有請彭主委還有簡總委員好兩位長官好委員好我想最近這一陣子我們立法院推動的國會改革無法的事情跑出了一個王逸川事件"},{"start":4257.489,"end":4286.675,"text":"王玉川不是路人甲、路人鯉他是執政黨、民進黨的政策會執行長他在節目裡面公開講了那一天幾月幾號來的人跟5月19、跟太陽花的人是不一樣的就牽涉到手機的IP定位的問題根據我們的各執法訂的很清楚各執法第二條第一款"},{"start":4287.791,"end":4314.876,"text":"手機的定位資訊是屬於各支中華電信有沒有我這裡圖有一個中華電信5月17號就開進來了5月21號也進來5月24號也進來5月28號也進來每天都進來就在我們青島會館的對面拍得很方便我們就拍得看到按照1月17現在昨天"},{"start":4316.041,"end":4339.526,"text":"在立法院巡打的時候國安局撇得輕輕的沒有他都沒有介入內政部都不知道法務部都被查辦了問題問題民進黨的公職人員在電視台上就講了這個資料是中華電信提供的我們就問了"},{"start":4343.798,"end":4366.126,"text":"現在已經鬧得沸沸揚揚媒體吵了幾天這麼大的事情請問中華電信有沒有針對事情發布重訊有沒有有沒有沒有啊那你做什麼的主委啊訂立一下交易所啊可不可以馬上叫他發可以嗎監總經理"},{"start":4371.538,"end":4386.042,"text":"向委員報告我們仲訓一定要先他發生這個事件的已經發生了他已經發生的把資料各自洩露給民進黨的政治委執行長已經發生了已經發生了這難道不是很大的事情嗎這是醜聞這是等於台灣版的水門事件"},{"start":4395.743,"end":4406.762,"text":"向委員說明一下就是上市公司他像他這一個不是你不要跟我講那一堆啦齁我11月有限你就告訴我這個事件他該不該發訊息請問你該不該發"},{"start":4411.476,"end":4439.407,"text":"委員我覺得應該是要有這個管理這個相關的法規的部門確定他違反規定了現在已經法務部他自然在偵查這個事情啊這個事情還不嚴重啊查就查中華電信啊我昨天上節目還有一個民進黨公職人員就把中華電信拿出來啊中華電信就中華電信給的資料啊"},{"start":4440.816,"end":4440.996,"text":"我還想說這個"},{"start":4469.833,"end":4478.148,"text":"是不是符合我們現在現行規定發布重訓的標準那可不可以那個交易所或是我們副市長跟我們說我們現在發重訓的標準是"},{"start":4481.247,"end":4507.038,"text":"報告委員那原則上上市櫃公司如果符合最近有新聞媒體報導那我們就是請他們做澄清那另外一個就是委員有提到說他是不是符合我們重訊的那個標準那交易所這邊應該會請這兩家公司做說明然後評估是不是要依照規定發重訊所以你們也不敢要求他們發喔這影響到會影響到股價喔影響到股東權利喔"},{"start":4510.899,"end":4528.671,"text":"因為大家原來發現說,喔!我是中華電信的,原來我的個資毫無保護啊!我的個資隨時都被洩漏啊!那不敢買啊!這影響到教育啊,怎麼沒有呢?這麼大的事情,怎麼影響啊?踩到基礎喔!已經新聞燒了幾天了,今天平民媒體這麼大的版面在做這個題目!他對外新聞稿沒有發!"},{"start":4542.097,"end":4571.278,"text":"在這裡已經雞尾狗跳了昨天國安局、昨天內政部、法務部相關的首長都講話了還要理不理欸ESG可以做這麼吵你們不要處理一下我再釐清一下這是不是應該要發是不是符合我們要發訊息的規範我們請交易所去盡速釐清一下什麼時候可以進行?今天可以嗎?"},{"start":4572.406,"end":4576.93,"text":"好歹中華電信要放新聞稿吧!人家都點名中華電信,我在這裡點名中華電信,他可以不放新聞稿嗎?"},{"start":4597.83,"end":4606.413,"text":"昨天跟我上節目一起的民進黨的公司人員那板子給我看了中國電信都安捏男的都什麼女的都安捏都在那裡憋這樣東西就代表中國電信洩露個資阿這是違反個資法"},{"start":4615.281,"end":4639.743,"text":"最少要求他發新聞稿 因應這個事 到底王玉川公經的公帝亂講一通 還是真的中華電信犯法 洩漏各支客戶 多少客戶 七百萬 千萬 各支"},{"start":4643.308,"end":4644.009,"text":"公股運航八位董事長"},{"start":4679.778,"end":4696.693,"text":"我看今天的題目啊我們的主席用心良苦啊說1月17他的隱瞞有這個意思意思做得好貸款條件應該好一點是這個意思吧就這個味道請問八家董事長"},{"start":4698.902,"end":4710.086,"text":"你們的放狠條件有沒有針對ESG排行前面的幾家的客戶給他特別的優惠一下比如說利率降個半碼有沒有 有的舉手沒有舉手的嗎1、2、3、4、5、6、7 少一家 八家都有減半碼的舉手"},{"start":4727.377,"end":4749.551,"text":"來來來,部長要聽說,或者是雷董事長要代表了好不好,你是銀行公務的理事長呢報告委員沒有講那麼多啦,大概兩三個基本點啦兩三個基本點,0.03%萬分之三,萬分之三是吧,兩三個基本點就是萬分之三嘛,千分之三萬分之三"},{"start":4753.645,"end":4765.055,"text":"對,萬分之三沒錯千分之三萬分之三零點零零三對很久了零點零三啦零點零三來,主委啊,一起來好不好,主委一起來那個,八家董事長可以請回了八家董事長告訴我們都有跟ESG有掛鉤但是一點點"},{"start":4780.374,"end":4803.159,"text":"這個就是 主委 我就告訴你 還有幾位董事長聽我好了你們ESG發的ETF有9檔了 對吧確定一下沒關係 對 我們確定不熱 不熱 沒有incentive主席就提不牌了 要incentiveincentive 萬分之二 萬分之三 要一件毫無incentive 主委"},{"start":4808.513,"end":4821.383,"text":"可不可以請問部長：打破一下好歹到千分之一吧萬分之二、萬分之三太少了難怪人家不理啊做得再好沒用啊"},{"start":4823.732,"end":4825.193,"text":"政府的政策也很重要!"},{"start":4846.232,"end":4848.373,"text":"因為ESG談到一個減碳的問題他投入碳權的市場"},{"start":4866.234,"end":4882.84,"text":"藍桿豐廊有一個高效率的冰水主機計畫預估10年減少110萬公噸的攤牌其他公股要不要比照啊 要舉手一下好不好 要不要比照比照一下好不好 其他公股營養董事長土雲做得不錯喔 這個表揚土雲雷董事長要不要舉手喔"},{"start":4889.485,"end":4889.985,"text":"請問部長你是要忍錢包嗎?"},{"start":4908.493,"end":4908.613,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4929.517,"end":4943.047,"text":"冷錢包據我所知就是我們現在虛擬資產上面那個就是我們可以大聲一點好不好就是可以收收那個就是可以接收虛擬虛擬資產的帳虛擬資產加起來就是冷錢包你們在5月17號你們有公布一個WEBS有一個作業系統就針對冷錢包你們類似管理的一個辦法"},{"start":4959.639,"end":4961.5,"text":"全台灣第一支電子產品偵測權能夠秀出冷清包"},{"start":4989.896,"end":5004.104,"text":"這個部長你知道這件事情嗎?總部長知道嗎?他送過我們一支,這個當然不是送給你啦齁,送給警政署的。來,公務署他講話可以啊。我們有沒有這一支?有沒有這一支群?有沒有?沒有,要不要買?這個走私啊,這個洗錢的。"},{"start":5014.059,"end":5041.539,"text":"我們有權訊中心我們有權資的這個來源我們的權沒辦法修這個這是很unique很unique主委你覺得我們需不需要引進這樣的一個秀絕冷錢包的權我想我們站在制度的建立任何有助於比如說防範犯罪健全市場我們都可以來考慮部長我在跟你提醒"},{"start":5042.915,"end":5060.829,"text":"大家計時海關特別是金管會你管的虛擬貨幣是怕洗錢怕洗錢這個就很容易洗錢一個小小的USB你怎麼知道是那個呢只有不可能收嘛全身收我USB不是人錢包"},{"start":5062.233,"end":5082.31,"text":"有這樣的權是美國送我們一隻去打電話給我們部長謝謝委員的一個提示我們再去進一步的了解然後看看盡快喔你去跟警政署聯絡一下問一下這樣的權啊再跟美國要一隻嘛你們海關用不然就去買啊我們不是沒有錢"},{"start":5083.561,"end":5095.207,"text":"可以嗎我跟委員報告就是我們再先去了解然後跟相關的機關去聯繫看看要怎麼樣的方式來做這樣子好 謝謝賴思寶委員質詢謝謝委員下一位我們請郭國文委員質詢請"},{"start":5112.827,"end":5114.322,"text":"謝主席,有請彭主委"},{"start":5119.978,"end":5120.098,"text":"主席"},{"start":5150.078,"end":5168.853,"text":"但是我本席這邊要對您說的是說你如果只是一個鼓勵跟指引那企業如果是一個消極的態度去面對的話恐怕這個ESG的這個標準是不是能夠形成一個公信形成一個具體的指標就令人擔憂所以我看到是這樣子"},{"start":5169.574,"end":5185.541,"text":"我們台灣指數公司確實有針對這些公司來進行一些永續的一個評鑑但是評鑑過程當中屢屢引起一些爭議爭議在哪裡?爭議在這個別的公司在評鑑上有的是優等生有的是特優生但是呢卻有違反這個社會責任"},{"start":5186.741,"end":5190.962,"text":"Puget也有許多民間團體讀懂的協會調查到目前為止經營階層當中對於ESG的認知還相當缺乏"},{"start":5209.088,"end":5228.589,"text":"重視程度還有待加強甚至對這個相關的問題還不甚了解這種情況底下我想請問一下主委主委是不是可以比照像薪酬或審計委員會的這個部分在規範上能夠稍微強制一點譬如講成立一個永續發展委員會不需要主委的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":5229.995,"end":5256.397,"text":"現在我想各個公司呢比如說我們省紀委員會當然是強制要設還有現在永續委員會這是各個公司可以來決定就像我們薪酬一樣那我們有些有強制力我們會我們會持續的評估像比如說如何強化公司治理像比如說省紀委員會設置還有他的權責把它加重就是我們從實務上看到的比如說假設委員有提到未來永續會是一個長遠要落實的政策的話我們會請我們相關的單位來評估這樣的"},{"start":5259.119,"end":5281.912,"text":"我稍微push一下好不好稍微強制一下這個可以來評估啦你想一想喔像我們所有這個資訊的揭露你包括這個所謂的平淺的台灣指數公司所平淺的內容當中它也是事後指標它也沒有辦法去驗證它的真實性如果說呢這個永續報告書這麼重要如同是財報的這個地位的話財報還有會計師在做認證那永續報告書誰來認證對不對"},{"start":5289.639,"end":5296.904,"text":"現在我們其實有請交易所跟櫃買做審閱剛剛有跟委員報告過當然就是說現在我們剛剛提到就是我們在做這個永續報告的時候一開始大家都是我們是鼓勵所以我們盡量請他們先做獨立的報告這個部分我們當然是會不斷的優化"},{"start":5313.255,"end":5327.787,"text":"在審閱的過程當中如果說假設這個報告書的內容它有虛偽不實或有隱匿的狀況它其實是違反政交法第36條第4項公開發行公司年報應記載事項準則這有明形式的問題"},{"start":5334.554,"end":5359.247,"text":"我可不可以請副局長回答一下是報告委員因為那個永續報告書其實是交易所這邊的規定所以違反是違反交易所那邊有相關交易所的違約金的處分只是說永續報告書有一些介入內容我們現在也把它放到年報裡面股東會的年報那股東會年報如果記載有虛偽不實那就會違反我們證交法要放到年報以後才算符合這個法令"},{"start":5360.888,"end":5361.288,"text":"我舉一個例子"},{"start":5379.884,"end":5401.751,"text":"這個標準的部分 永續金融的評鑑的當中對於水泥的這個碳排的部分 一年的部分的排放的強度是0.9公噸可是就法規上 這排放的強度是0.821那我請問一下 那ESG要比照哪一個標準這比照法規的呢 還是比照我們本身的永續評鑑的這標準不一樣"},{"start":5404.508,"end":5429.229,"text":"現在是先按照市場上面的規定然後如果主管機關有意見會再把標準再弄得比較嚴格所以我們現在是按照我們的法規的規定來辦理嗎市場上面有跟業界討論所以是用這個現在不一致了現在的話我們是用剛才那個評鑑指標來對是用評鑑指標嘛但是法規不一樣嘛那現在這個標準不一樣那要怎麼去確定要去處理"},{"start":5430.33,"end":5452.26,"text":"我覺得我不是把所有的這個loading都放在你身上你是不是可以找國發會做一個平台把環境部找來把經濟部找來相關的部會找來我們來談一談到底官方的真正的標準是什麼你如果沒有一個標準的話就很難指標化嘛你沒有一個指標化你透明化也沒有意義啊對不對"},{"start":5454.001,"end":5479.543,"text":"所以從根本的做起的部分是這個嘛主委請你費心一下另外我還有看到金管會今年說還要提出所謂的金融機構房票率的參考指引主委這個部分你的基本態度什麼時候要做我們現在是不是上次應該最近就會發布那個原則了對應該最近應該就馬上會發布那個原則最近啊最近是"},{"start":5481.229,"end":5495.944,"text":"是第二季以前嗎我記得這公文我已經簽了對已經簽了所以說應該這一兩個月就會出來了嘛那類似的指標呢它是不是會擴大所有到永續報告書的這一些公司是不是這個"},{"start":5499.005,"end":5499.565,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":5516.798,"end":5544.852,"text":"就是有關於這個公司治理的部分啦有次報告書當中的公司治理當然就是以你本來的這個主體公司為主但是你的主體公司當中呢你有一部分的這個取儲啊成立了子公司之後好像子公司就獨立化了可是子公司獨立化他只要經過一次取儲他都到外面就變成一個那個整個外部的交易隨便他取儲啦主委"},{"start":5545.987,"end":5570.78,"text":"你如果內部交你還有一些規範喔那外部沒有喔可是明明這是原來那個母公司的一個資產那你成立子公司成立子公司以後你就不管他了對可是他成立子公司如果成立一家還好他如果成立一二十家那不是變相的一種掏空嗎是變相的違反你的內部的內積內空的一個治理的範圍嗎是對這部分的現象我不需要主任你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":5571.4,"end":5596.697,"text":"報告委員我想對於這個案子我們有一些案例發生以後呢其實我們對於我不是跟你談一個個案而已我是從個案看到通案喔就是因為我們從這個看到的就是說我們現在的規定只給予母公司本身但我們現在實質在作業上交易所這邊會針對這個子公司一起來做一個考量只是說我們現在也在研議說要不要修我們的政交法把子公司整個納進來我們正在研議中"},{"start":5598.138,"end":5624.175,"text":"研議把子公司納入整個資產取儲的一個範圍納入這個取儲範圍當中才會有變相掏空的一個嫌疑嘛那同樣的道理啊你在資產取儲的部分會影響到內積內空的情況底下那是不是有可能先行把這些子公司的部分呢把它納入這一個永續報告書的範圍也就是簡單的講呢就是把這個ESG的部分把它家族化"},{"start":5625.555,"end":5649.724,"text":"他既然公司可以集團化了那你為什麼不要求ESG把它家族化的可能性呢我們現在是不是那個金融機構已經把所有子公司納入但其他上市櫃公司我們是不是還沒嘛對我們反正這個未來永續報告金融機構有因為我們金融機構公股銀行就成立一個ESG大聯盟啊那我是說你基本上你應該複製或是擴大嘛"},{"start":5651.525,"end":5669.031,"text":"那複製擴大的情況底下簡單的講就是一個家族化的概念嘛那你如果說有集團式的公司的話你是不是可以用這種方式把集團化把它家族化把ESG不是單純一個母公司的事情而是集團化的事情來有以大小的方式來建構這個ESG的這個標準跟環境"},{"start":5670.737,"end":5686.066,"text":"這是一個目標因為我們商會公司其實牽涉到範圍非常複雜不像金融業比較單純假設金融業實施他有這個經驗我想我們在持續優化這整個比如說永續報告書的值跟量我們這部分我們當然可以來"},{"start":5687.006,"end":5688.646,"text":"在未來優化過程中考慮到"},{"start":5709.268,"end":5719.183,"text":"新興病或中性病的部分你剛才提到就個案的部分你好像傾向不評論可是就政策上您的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":5720.605,"end":5742.629,"text":"按照我們金控法第18條我們本來就有一個金控診病的條文這個本來就當初在制度設計就已經考慮到任何一個金融機構或金融相關事業本來就有入場退場的規定那我們尊重市場的機制當然我跟你講因為金控的規模都比較大這個還有現在公平會的職權這部分其實我們在還沒有收到任何正式的文件之前我們真的"},{"start":5743.109,"end":5744.83,"text":"財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員金隆率所屬相關單位就財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員金隆率所屬相關單位"},{"start":5759.299,"end":5776.49,"text":"鼓不鼓勵嘛這個要看個案還是看個案你沒有政策你只有個案因為就等於說我們只要對市場的競爭力跟你不覺得台灣的銀行太多嗎其實銀行太多其實我們透過金庫的整併你不覺得需要整周一個亞洲級的然後來打亞洲盃嗎"},{"start":5777.641,"end":5796.875,"text":"這當然是一個我們可以想像的目標但是其實上我們有很多的條件必須滿足啦對啊但是規模至少是一個基本的條件嘛我很希望看到主委的基本的政策態度啦謝謝主委謝謝委員的指教謝謝謝謝郭國文的質詢下一位請王宏偉委員質詢"},{"start":5805.37,"end":5834.078,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先請我們財政部長莊部長請哎 莊部長委員好好部長 下面今天也有很多我們公股、行庫的董事長和總經理在今年的3月底由國發會、經濟部還有找了財政部要求我們公股、行庫要參與我們整個的離岸風電三支一旗的連帶案"},{"start":5835.762,"end":5854.708,"text":"因為現在離岸風電當然現在是我們的能源政策的一個主力可是我們的宮古航庫對於參與連帶它未來離岸風電的前景有所疑慮所以在3月底曾經邀集了八大航庫一起來談論"},{"start":5857.228,"end":5865.573,"text":"事實上就是請業者喝咖啡啦希望他們能參與那我想了解一下到目前為止這個案子的進度如何跟委員報告就是有關這個事情我知道有國發會還有經濟部邀請我們宮古行庫一起去參與這樣的一個"},{"start":5876.503,"end":5900.039,"text":"其實第一個是讓大家了解到離岸豐電的一個發展情形因為在離岸豐電的聯打案我要知道進度對不起因為我時間關係我要知道到目前為止進度如何目前為止還是銀行還是我們跟銀行在自行的一個在評估所以到目前為止就是我們目前八大行庫還沒有決定要去參與離岸豐電的三正一期的聯打案"},{"start":5902.621,"end":5913.984,"text":"就我所知我並不清楚我可能要看看行庫的作業對好時間暫停一下那麼到底我們財政部能不能確定我要知道現在的進度到底參與了還是沒有參與還是站在評估中"},{"start":5920.456,"end":5934.4,"text":"應該是評估中還正在評估中那我就不花時間請這個航庫的董事長總經理上來說明了我覺得這件事情跟我們其實長期以來包含我們今天的討論內容也是一樣我們當然鼓勵我們的"},{"start":5936.701,"end":5937.862,"text":"當然因為我們現在包含離岸風電的價格實在太高了"},{"start":5965,"end":5969.284,"text":"他們現在開出說一度店6塊錢你這個價格是連台積電都買不下手的因為台積電說這個6塊錢他們是買不了的所以如果連台積電都不能買那未來他的買主在哪裡所以他的財務報告要怎麼樣來做評估所以我在這邊要特別講的是新政府上台以後"},{"start":5987.122,"end":6010.405,"text":"我要拜託的是不要再像舊政府那個時候已經即將卸任但是呢這麼重要一個連帶案找了這麼多的行庫事實上就是給行庫施壓呀所以我要講的就是請尊重銀行的他的一個風險的評估權好不好所以我希望財政部在這個部分也能夠把關可不可以"},{"start":6011.254,"end":6011.855,"text":"有請彭主委"},{"start":6032.52,"end":6056.77,"text":"委員好部長跟主委我想現在在兩部之間我們市場非常關心的就是我們當沖的稅率是不是要繼續調降那麼要調降的話要調降多久那麼很難得我在執行這個問題的時候大部分財政部就金管會那現在你們兩大巨頭都在這裡"},{"start":6058.032,"end":6058.934,"text":"有關於當沖降稅的常態化我想請問一下我們的莊部長現在我們財政部的態度是什麼"},{"start":6066.833,"end":6087.607,"text":"還是認為常態化不可行還是說你們要有所讓步委員您說的常態化意思就是說降了再降降了再降一直降就是說在期限上就在適用的時間上我想這個部分對於有關租會租稅的一個優惠它必須要有一個實現而不可能是成為一個常態化的傾向"},{"start":6089.048,"end":6090.47,"text":"這是納稅者權利保護法的一些規定就是這樣子好,那麼現在金管會呢對於當沖稅率的降稅那麼現在又提出要再延長5年那麼"},{"start":6103.115,"end":6127.5,"text":"現在財政部的態度是什麼對於金管會的一個建議意見他們其實在年初的時候就有到財政部那對於有關當沖降稅這個事情社會各界都有不同的意見有贊成的也有質疑的那對於各界的意見我們都收集以後我們對於有關質疑需要釐清的部分也再請金管會這個部分再做一些評估以及給我們一個更詳細的一個資料"},{"start":6129.735,"end":6139.679,"text":"部長跟主委我覺得這件事情因為顯然財政部跟金管會各自站在自己部會不同的立場到目前為止還沒有一個決斷那麼我先講一下我的態度第一個我的態度過去幾次在我們的財務會講得非常清楚我並不贊成當沖稅還要繼續的減半而且要繼續延長五年"},{"start":6156.365,"end":6159.848,"text":"因為我覺得從2017年開始一再的延長而當時所要達成的一些效果事實上都已經看到了我覺得不應該像吃馬飛一樣覺得要一吃再吃這樣子反而對市場不健全"},{"start":6172.139,"end":6180.2,"text":"不然的話你們就回去好好的討論如果你覺得當初的稅率不應該就是應該減半你就是永久性的減半而不是一再的延長我覺得這是破壞了整個的這個稅制這個稅制的穩定性是不足的這是第一個第二個因為你們年底即將到期那我也希望兩個部會能夠盡快的做決定因為任何一個市場都是這樣的"},{"start":6201.184,"end":6227.422,"text":"它的不穩定因素越多它的不穩定因素越久對於市場至少在短期上它的效應也是不夠好的因為也許現在市場充滿一片的樂觀因為認為今晚會提出來那麼現在新政府應該不怕這個這個證券市場受到波動應該就是可以得逞可是我覺得不穩定的因素應該盡量的把它消去可不可以"},{"start":6230.21,"end":6246.828,"text":"請問一下你們什麼時候會決定呢我想這個部分金管會也在持續的收集資料那我們兩部會做一個充分的討論什麼時候可以決定嗎這個決定我想我們會再做一個討論次六月底可不可以"},{"start":6250.182,"end":6266.348,"text":"這個部分因為也涉及到一些修法如果是動的話就要涉及到法律的一些修正這個部分我想應該還要一定的程序所以你到現在都不願意去承諾我還是覺得你們能夠盡快的把它做一個了斷好不好時間暫停一下請部長先請回好 那個 主委"},{"start":6278.755,"end":6295.528,"text":"我們現在就是今天談那個我們要怎麼樣導入ESG那我也看了你們的報告那所以呢其實我們金融機構在做這個ESG的評鑑呢也非常的賣力不過呢事實上在國內甚至在國際間對於ESG評鑑的準則"},{"start":6298.51,"end":6313.846,"text":"到目前為止還有很多的討論而且甚至呢也有很多人對於他的這個信度或者信任程度其實也還帶很多的驗證那比如說這個是國際上的The Reuters Report"},{"start":6314.963,"end":6332.133,"text":"在國際上受訪者對ESG評比的信任程度事實上是下降的那因為其實這個評比很多但是呢到底這些評比可不可信其實在國際上都有爭議好我們現在看到就是說在這個國際間ESG的評比機構的監管"},{"start":6335.675,"end":6349.812,"text":"有的是用監管的態度比如說歐盟他直接用證券及市場管理局來做監管可是像日本他們並不做用監管的方式他只是由金融提出準則那我想請問一下我們ESG評鑑"},{"start":6353.53,"end":6381.112,"text":"現在市場的評鑑也很多但是呢我們也沒有什麼國家級的一個評鑑的標準那我想請問一下主委那麼未來ESG的評鑑我們金管會願意當扛把子嗎就是願意把它放在金管會這邊不管是提出準則也好或者是你們來做監管也好金管會有這樣的準備嗎"},{"start":6382.674,"end":6402.476,"text":"我想報告委員我們現階段先是由剛剛跟各位報告交易所做公司治理評鑑另外的話就現在那個研訓院他們在做那個永續金融評鑑我們是按部就班那當然就是未來假設這個政策是一個要達成我們要優化這個政策的話未來是一定會走這個政策的"},{"start":6403.796,"end":6420.744,"text":"我們其實儘管會對於國際上的制度的演變我們都持續的關注當然只要有助於未來優化我們永續金融的發展以及未來ESG的這樣的促進我想剛剛委員提到很好我們會去參酌各國的做法再來看看我們接下來下一步可以怎麼來做"},{"start":6421.772,"end":6439.43,"text":"我覺得我這個可能是一個大災問因為在國際間大家也是慢慢在摸索有的國家有的地區他覺得他要用比較強力的監管方式以免他太過混亂那有些國家覺得我也不要用作監管只要我設立一些準則就好了"},{"start":6439.85,"end":6455.501,"text":"但是在台灣我真的目前為止不管從行政院或者環境部或者經濟部或者是市經管會我到現在為止大家都是在各自做各自的每個都覺得說ESG好重要、ESG好重要評鑑確實很重要"},{"start":6457.702,"end":6464.17,"text":"所以第一個就是未來的主管單位到底是誰主管機關到底是誰他也許用監管的他也許是用比較鬆散的我覺得這個應該也是盡快的做定論那另外一個部分我覺得這也並不是今晚會的責任但是我在這邊要提出來"},{"start":6475.825,"end":6481.948,"text":"就是因為現在整個市場社會都覺得ESG很重要現在已經出現很多詐騙集團了啦我們有很多的小資族因為他希望趕上這班列車然後他們花了大錢對他們來講可能幾萬、十萬、二十萬、三十萬對他們來講是大錢然後他們認為說我要希望拿到證照結果最後一堆人被騙了因為"},{"start":6501.138,"end":6526.287,"text":"身上這個機構也也不是一個也不是一個正當的機構也沒有認證的機構他拿後來他花了大錢會發現他只是一個上課證明根本不是任何的證照所以從高層的就是我們到底我們主管機關是誰我們評鑑制度可不可以信賴到下面我們很多的坊間這些所謂根本就在開補習班你開補習班就算了最後還變成詐騙集團所以我真的覺得"},{"start":6529.068,"end":6554.284,"text":"當然我們政府一再的宣傳我們很重視ESG的這個制度的建立我們要怎麼樣的去協助等等之類的但是呢不要變成詐騙集團的工具這一點非常的重要啦因為我們每一次的這個我們質詢都要留下記錄我覺得這個部分值得包含真的包含我們的立法委員包含我們所有的官員都應該要真的避免"},{"start":6554.844,"end":6555.065,"text":"謝謝王副委員的質詢"},{"start":6581.503,"end":6586.546,"text":"主席各位列席官員主席我想先請財政部莊部長委員好部長早部長"},{"start":6596.557,"end":6619.83,"text":"今天跟明天就是最後報稅的日期截至27日統計有超過553萬件已經完成申報但是以去年總申報件數是663萬件來預估還有超過110萬件沒有完成申報部長有沒有掌握目前報稅的進度"},{"start":6623.131,"end":6634.062,"text":"財政委員報告到5月29日為止已經申報的有631萬件大概佔了全數的95%那目前還沒有完成申報的是32萬戶大概佔5%"},{"start":6638.669,"end":6663.287,"text":"631號,5月29號各地區第一線的稅務委員都還在加班所以這件事算是非常的辛苦請部長持續來掌握進度是的,我想第一個目前來說用網路報稅的也蠻多的那也有到現場去的那我們第一線同仁都會盡力的做服務讓我們的報稅人能夠覺得更便捷謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":6668.271,"end":6688.767,"text":"主席再請金管會彭主委主委好本席上任的永續金融網的網站去瀏覽在永續相關的評鑑上主要分為兩大評鑑第一種是永續金融評鑑"},{"start":6690.902,"end":6715.955,"text":"那為了要提升金融業主動因應氣候變遷還有相關風險及實踐ESG的能力那引導消費者、投資人及實體產業共同重視永續發展那今晚會聯合延續院、政經會、保發中心一起對銀行、證券商還有保險公司進行永續金融評鑑"},{"start":6717.396,"end":6743.937,"text":"永續金融評鑑的指標包括永續發展綜合指標、環境支柱、社會支柱、公司治理支柱參考國際標準還有國內金融業發展的進程因為去年是第一次評鑑相信還有很多業者和民眾對這項評鑑都感到陌生能不能請主委簡單介紹一下這項評鑑的內容以及希望達成的目標"},{"start":6746.046,"end":6768.621,"text":"當然我們已經有了交易所的做了其實成效蠻好的公司治理評鑑當然我們針對永續金融的部分我們就委請三個單位做這個永續金融的評鑑那初步第一年確實我們就只銀行證券保險大概五十幾個單位接受評鑑那我想這部分我們未來當然是"},{"start":6769.582,"end":6771.783,"text":"第二種是公司治理評鑑現行公司治理評鑑都是參考"},{"start":6793.72,"end":6809.829,"text":"公司治理原則分為四大構面包括維護股東權益、平等多代股東強化董事會結構與運作提升資訊透明度推動永續發展等近年來公司治理評鑑持續增加"},{"start":6812.096,"end":6829.781,"text":"推動永續發展、構面指標內容及權重為進一步鑑別上市櫃公司與ESG各方面的表現徵交所也依上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案的規劃以目前公司治理評鑑架構為基礎"},{"start":6832.201,"end":6841.144,"text":"參考相關國際標準以及其他推動環境及社會面向的趨勢逐步來增加環境社會構面指標及權重預計115年轉型為ESG評鑑"},{"start":6849.608,"end":6869.611,"text":"三方面的表現去評估企業的永續發展面向不同的評鑑機構會出現不同的一個評分的標準跟方法評分標準依機構不同而有所差異到現在沒有一套說一致性的標準所以我要請教金管會"},{"start":6870.452,"end":6871.353,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6888.716,"end":6902.646,"text":"那所以大家都會選擇對於自己比較厲害的部分來進行評比我要請教金管會什麼時間金管會會不會制定一套屬於金管會自己的標準來提供給企業做參考跟落實"},{"start":6905.48,"end":6908.482,"text":"交易所公司治理評鑑逐步轉為ESG評鑑每年會召開委員會"},{"start":6931.833,"end":6945.9,"text":"委員會裡邊產官學都有這個相關的標準制定好了以後我們會對外面去公布公布以後我們還會開課程就是宣導會宣導會裡邊對這個條文的解釋還有對這個實務案例怎麼去得分"},{"start":6952.984,"end":6975.815,"text":"那我們都宣導完了以後我們交給這個獨立客觀的基金會他們去做評比那過程當中呢公司如果對這個回答以後覺得沒有得分的話他們會自評那沒有得分的話他們還可以打電話跟這個基金會去討論說我怎麼樣為什麼沒有得分所以我們的這個整個制度是蠻齊全的就是說規定"},{"start":6979.557,"end":6980.899,"text":"金管會不會制定一套標準就是像剛剛表示的就是一樣"},{"start":7002.113,"end":7026.122,"text":"請獨立客觀的基金會來做一個輔導是不是這樣子就剛剛也有跟其他委員報告過我們現階段是由我們的周邊單位來辦像以教育所為例它已經辦了10年其實對市場的那個影響已經看到了再來剛才至於說未來我們要不要有政府來主辦的這樣的ESG評鑑剛剛我們也稍微看一下世界各國現在大部分都是民間的團體來做這樣的評鑑當然也有"},{"start":7028.683,"end":7030.604,"text":"綠色金融產品有一項是永續連結貸款永續連結貸款是一種跟借款人的永續發展目標相關聯的貸款產品"},{"start":7048.172,"end":7071.206,"text":"資金不受限制的永續連結貸款只需要金融機構與要借錢的企業達成共識就可以自由運用基金金融機構也可以根據這段時間內去衡量企業達成指標的成效來調整借貸的利率我想請教金管會在借貸的過程當中如何避免企業去做一個"},{"start":7072.466,"end":7094.724,"text":"表率的發聲表率就是說綠色公關和綠色行銷的手段上他去做這樣子的當一家公司或者是單位把資源跟預算投入在環保相關的形象公關活動而不是把真正的資金投入到實際上需要的永續行動當中這就是一個表率的行為"},{"start":7097.133,"end":7119.386,"text":"以臺灣的情況來講目前各銀行的利率都不算高那要怎麼透過這些獎勵的一個減碼可能也沒有辦法減太多啦剛剛很多委員也是反對減碼那這樣子要如何使企業願意以永續連結貸款來進行借貸的誘因誘因是什麼還有其他方法嗎"},{"start":7120.714,"end":7134.982,"text":"我想現階段剛剛也有請各個各個行庫來做說明就是說我們現在的永續連結的貸款當然是我們希望這筆錢的運用是在跟永續相關所以我們才會給予在貸放利率上面的優惠"},{"start":7137.263,"end":7161.96,"text":"這也是列為貸放契約的一部分那我想說這部分剛剛委員有指正說怎麼樣防止這個民不服食這件事情我想各個銀行都有他自己的管制機制那這部分的話因為貸放這個本來就是一個很專業的問題但是我們提出這個現階段還是以鼓勵為主但是至於說各個契約他們各個銀行應該有自己很就有自己的管控措施來達到這個目的好"},{"start":7166.261,"end":7188.576,"text":"各國因應氣候變遷、淨零排碳的目標,所以分辨採取相關政策設定淨零排碳目標,在2050年前實現。當然,臺灣也不例外,我國在推動綠色金融方面也面臨到許多挑戰,包括溫室氣體盤查的資訊還不夠充足,綠色以及永續的概念未明確化,"},{"start":7189.517,"end":7214.198,"text":"以及永續金融人才不足等問題剛剛其他委員也分別都有提到那要如何持續的推動綠色金融以及永續發展並與國際接軌的我們還有很長一段路要走那所以我們一定要給予企業一個最大的支持一起努力好不好這我們會朝這方向努力謝謝謝謝委員會的質詢接著我們請賴會委員會質詢"},{"start":7225.474,"end":7253.008,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們的金管會主委財政部部長趙鋒趙鋒董事長、土穎董事長有請彭主委、莊部長、雷董還有謝董委員好我想今天我們針對的就是如何精進這個ESG的制度的一個評鑑那落實到就是金融機構的一個"},{"start":7254.329,"end":7254.569,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7279.195,"end":7279.375,"text":"哪一個一定好"},{"start":7304.308,"end":7304.689,"text":"請董事長說明好嗎?"},{"start":7316.76,"end":7341.937,"text":"是不是請委員可以再指教的問題因為我正好在討論就是針對的就是亞洲水泥它在花蓮發生的前不久發生的一個火警那就是說我們土銀你是它最大的一個連帶銀行你怎麼樣來看這一個企業的一個環保議題你後續你有去關心然後你做了什麼樣的一個追蹤嗎"},{"start":7343.2,"end":7343.24,"text":"怎麼樣關注?"},{"start":7359.886,"end":7376.397,"text":"我想第一個要確認說它是不是有造成這一個多大的影響當然這是媒體報導但是這一個那你有沒有實際了解這個案子我個人沒有實際了解對不起那你下面有沒有給你報告沒有所以你也不管"},{"start":7377.737,"end":7403.082,"text":"我沒有看到這一則新聞所以你私下還會再提供我一份我想我請總經理來把這一個整理一下然後跟您做個報告好 謝謝董事長那針對的就是說我們公股銀行怎麼樣去反映就租賃公司借高利貸的這個社會責任的一個問題那在這裡我要請教就是說我們所有的一個"},{"start":7404.303,"end":7410.712,"text":"主任公司最大的一個年代換款的銀行就是我們的土地銀行土地銀行董事長"},{"start":7413.869,"end":7433.377,"text":"董事長你看在這段時間其實這三個月以來本席一直針對的主任公司的一個社會責任他不斷的不斷的製造太多的一個社會問題不是銀行竟然就是說可以做最大的最大的一個那個高利貸的一個換款"},{"start":7434.477,"end":7444.85,"text":"那甚至超過22倍那這樣子的話你作為身為一個就是最大的這個主任公司的一個換款的年代銀行你怎麼樣去看這個問題呢"},{"start":7448.39,"end":7473.344,"text":"報告委員我想在上一次的這個會議裡頭呢我有跟委員報告我也有關心到這個議題那我首先要說明的是土地銀行待放的這個給融資公司呢其實他大部分的資金呢都是放在這個太陽能跟綠色的一個電廠的一個設置所需要的資金那委員關心的"},{"start":7474.565,"end":7504.326,"text":"貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸"},{"start":7505.022,"end":7509.213,"text":"責成就聽起來好像他們也保證啊怎麼樣的一個保證呢?董事長,怎麼樣的一個保證呢?"},{"start":7513.635,"end":7541.347,"text":"我想大家都有共識就是說從那個公會治理的部分來制定那大家有同樣的一個遊戲規則那他們一定會嚴守好我跟你講你會後給我一份報告好不好現在這樣講起來還是非常的一個空那大家也聽不清楚那就是說其實我們的時間也有限來趙鳳營養董事長我想針對著公股銀行如何反映企業的公司化的一個管理"},{"start":7543.243,"end":7549.908,"text":"臺北天空塔遭到掏空海外股權也全部出售"},{"start":7573.864,"end":7601.061,"text":"這一個案例呢跟委員報告這整個案件我們從頭到尾都有在關注其實在去年5月我們就停止撥款因為這個案子其實他是一直在蓋只是那個股東之間的一個紛爭所以造成一些就是有一點到底股權是在哪個地方有沒有賣掉有沒有質押這個問題甚至中資的問題但是我們去年就已經掌握整個狀況停止撥款了"},{"start":7602.342,"end":7602.462,"text":"財政部莊部長"},{"start":7626.636,"end":7650.811,"text":"我們前兆豐的一個董事長蔡友才蔡友才我想這個他的一個那個就是這個掏空那沒有掏空啦那個是他等於是我們在紐約被裁罰的案子對好紐約被裁罰的案子是所以跟蔡友才沒有關係嗎現在就當我們也在追究責任那為什麼會你審判了9個月勒"},{"start":7653.913,"end":7681.667,"text":"董事長我跟你講沒有關係這個我請問財政部部長就是說在趙鋒前董事長蔡友才的這個案子裡頭趙鋒學到什麼樣的一個教訓你有沒有特別去關懷這個議題呢你看趙鋒為了這個案子就是說我們里里外外我們互了多少的一個法律的一個費用然後我們提供了多少的擔保品給"},{"start":7684.23,"end":7697.584,"text":"這個確實就是造成這個兆豐在這個社會上就是有一個非常非常大的一個負面那不知道部長怎麼看待這個事情是謝謝委員兆豐這個案子在有約分行"},{"start":7698.437,"end":7712.091,"text":"被美國當地的金融監理機關罰款那罰了非常的重那當然在國內的金融業造成了也很大的一個衝擊那我覺得這個是一個教訓就是您委員講的一個教訓從這個經驗裡面我們認為洗錢防治要非常的重是因為國際間對這樣的一個作業都非常重要"},{"start":7718.778,"end":7718.958,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7733.854,"end":7735.496,"text":"蔡永毅是我們兆豐的前總經理他竟然還有辦法什麼叫資深合夥人"},{"start":7753.191,"end":7782.691,"text":"是不是就是借貸有功所以未來我都可以做這樣子的資深合夥人所以我一直在講說我們在這整個案子裡頭我們學到了什麼樣的一個教訓這個涉嫌就是掏空的邱冠興在海外成立的一個盛景公司他邀請蔡永毅來擔任這個盛景公司的一個資深合夥人剛才我們兆豐的董事長跟我講說這個不叫掏空案"},{"start":7783.852,"end":7785.294,"text":"中間有沒有背信我們要不要查清楚呢?"},{"start":7800.373,"end":7815.765,"text":"你看這張名片這個多諷刺啊那這樣子喔對於蔡永毅這個個人的一個情況我們會在會後再完全再做一個了解是不是跟委員做報告部長我跟你報告齁這個我們當官齁"},{"start":7817.506,"end":7818.526,"text":"財政部部長翠雲,財政部部長翠雲"},{"start":7838.493,"end":7864.041,"text":"超級多那在這個過程裡頭我們有沒有一套比較好的方式可以來管理這些公股銀行的這個董事長、監察人、經理人的一個監督的力道我們可不可以盤查後續任職單位是否跟公股銀行的一個借貸有什麼樣的一個關係你不能就是說他發生事情他退下來了以後然後就是這樣子"},{"start":7864.741,"end":7864.781,"text":"主席"},{"start":7886.494,"end":7902.998,"text":"我們只能用背信去約束他們那你看出來每一件事情的皮肉都是這麼大所以就是要請各位就是對於這一個就是監督管理我們希望有信心可以把它就是整頓好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝來回有質詢接著我們請李坤成委員質詢"},{"start":7915.315,"end":7943.541,"text":"謝謝主席我們請彭主委主委好今天談這個ESG這個ESG就代表這個環境、社會還有公司治理那請教一下主委這個銀行業、證券業、保險業這個都有資本市主率的要求那如果沒有達到資本市主率的話它的永續金融評鑑有可能達到高分嗎?"},{"start":7948.583,"end":7975.023,"text":"這個指標上面應該是沒有參採這一塊什麼意思?指標上面沒有資本市主率嗎?ESG的部分因為指標非常非常多啦那我說在公司治理這部分的話沒有含這個資本市主率嗎?這個可不可以容許我稍微確認一下再跟委員報告有沒有要補充的?這不會影響到嗎?"},{"start":7976.282,"end":8004.882,"text":"現在的我們的公司治理評鑑裡面指標確實沒有含沒有含資本市主率啊?哇那如果像這個我們提到這個星光人壽啊或是這個三張美邦人壽那都沒有達到資本市主率它保持在公司治理有問題啊那沒有列到這個ESG的評鑑裡面啊其實公司治理當然跟資本市主其實這兩個觀念不太一樣當然就是說確實它衡量的角度是不同的"},{"start":8006.025,"end":8031.915,"text":"這個指標是參考誰的啊?ESG的指標?ESG的指標我想會從,比如說從聯合國開始,很多還有很多那你認不認為這個資本市主力也應該列入這個ESG的這個評鑑的這個標準裡面?我們現在的指標是有間接啦,比如說你因為資本市主力不足的話被裁罰,那裁罰就在ESG裡面可能會被扣分"},{"start":8033.476,"end":8047.957,"text":"我是認為這個東西應該要列進去才對因為這象徵一個公司的治理的問題我們對於資本市足率的要求這麼嚴格結果它沒有列到ESG的標準裡面我也是覺得蠻奇怪的請教一下主委"},{"start":8048.838,"end":8048.938,"text":"上禮拜幾號"},{"start":8076.917,"end":8088.223,"text":"一個是5月24另外一個5月165月16號是收到誰的?山桑5月24星光"},{"start":8088.988,"end":8105.629,"text":"阿對已經超過兩個禮拜了到現在還看不出來喔那先看一下比較久的好了山山美幫人壽5月16號因為有一些細節還要跟他們溝通啦尤其是他們在提方案的時候有很多的需要討論的事項這個齁根據那個山山美幫人壽在5月18的這個說明會裡面齁"},{"start":8107.631,"end":8133.808,"text":"他說他們提升資本市主力的強化計畫有三項四項一個是3億股的現金增資一個是私募普通股或特別股40億股還有這個私募國內殼轉換公司債30億元還有發行10年期累積次順位普通公司債50億元這個有包含在裡面嗎?有,它有提出來都有提出來那這個局長或是主委主委你認為這樣夠嗎?"},{"start":8137.148,"end":8142.406,"text":"主要我們還要評估他發債的可行性還有這些細節啦所以就是說認為這個50億的這一個"},{"start":8144.922,"end":8167.376,"text":"這個次順位普通公司債可行性的問題嗎?對對對,我們還在評估這個部分這個是這個美邦人壽,算上美邦人壽的嘛這個法案法說會有說出來了啦那5月16號給你們知道,我們到現在還沒有整理出一個重點給這個,因為今天其實大家都會問到啦,那那個星光人壽勒?星光人壽的部分"},{"start":8171.351,"end":8194.181,"text":"新光人壽他們也有提出來啦那我們也還在評估他的那個到底他能不能達到RBC的法定標準如果要達到這一個資本市主率的話我算了一下他們這一個5月24號董事會他的這個財務的這個改善計畫大概是會增加這個250億啦那這樣子能夠達到這個資本市主率嗎"},{"start":8199.241,"end":8211.787,"text":"有辦法嗎?就是我們要去看他的假設情境那他除了這個部分他還有一個還會再發債25億大概還有這個數字這是哪時候的事情?"},{"start":8214.253,"end":8235.811,"text":"應該會在下半年吧,下半年再加上那個債25億那這樣夠嗎?這275億這樣夠嗎?那現在就是我,它試算出來的東西我們再細部評估說到底有沒有辦法那你們心中應該有一個標準嗎?如果都達到了,都達到了這一個,譬如說它真是275億的話我只問說那這樣有達到日本市值率的要求嗎?"},{"start":8238.154,"end":8259.961,"text":"報告委員,我們還要再算一下,因為上禮拜來,我們有一些假設情境要跟他們再決定哪時候會算出來?應該是會再請他們在這個部分再有一些補充過來大概有一個期限,一個月、兩個月,總是會有一個期限我對你們有要求,你對他們有要求,期限就出來了"},{"start":8262.9,"end":8285.813,"text":"討論完之後我們會跟他溝通那確認應該一個月內會確認他們的方向一個月內確認他們的方向然後再評估說到底這個方向可不可行這個不知道要多久時間主委有沒有一個時間我想各位剛剛看到他不管三三五星光提出的方案其實這只是一個方案那實際上還牽涉到非常多的細部"},{"start":8286.721,"end":8287.561,"text":"那請教一下主委齁"},{"start":8307.831,"end":8328.871,"text":"這個星光星是星光人壽的唯一的股東那現在這個市場上有傳出來就是說有可能是個台興金會併這個星光金或是中信金要併這個星光金那請教一下如果這個上述有這個市場上面的這個傳言那會影響或是說會改善星光人壽未來的這個資本市儲率的達成嗎"},{"start":8331.155,"end":8348.685,"text":"合併是一個物理效應它沒辦法產生馬上的爭執因為它本來就是一個合併的主體當然剛才講說它的資本不足是它子公司不足當然剛才也提到了因為我們的金控基本上都百分之百持股母公司就是唯一的一人股東"},{"start":8349.665,"end":8372.996,"text":"所以這部分合併也會等於說任何一家金控合併這一家金控公司的百分之百持有的子公司未來根據金控法53條的義務所有的金控公司對子公司有增資要求都有法定籌資的義務我想這個部分應該會考慮剛剛委員提到的所有的這個都是傳聞而且他們各個公司也有出來表示意見我的意思是說"},{"start":8375.123,"end":8396.878,"text":"不論是這個臺信金或是中信金我在想我們現在標點還是在這個新光人壽因為這個2026年我們有一個保險業者接軌IFRS17的這個新的制度然後還有ICS2.0新一代的這個清償能力制度然後會造成這個售遣公司蠻大的一個資金的缺口那尤其對這個新光人壽來講"},{"start":8397.839,"end":8410.192,"text":"那有估算過啦如果在2025年之前呢這個在接軌之前呢他需要現金增至有1000多億那你如果沒有達到這一個明年沒有達到這1000多億的話他在2026年他其實是沒辦法接軌的欸"},{"start":8414.073,"end":8441.981,"text":"所以他是有很大的資金缺口報告委員剛剛您提到那個數字都是報紙寫的因為其實上剛剛講我們現在整個接軌資本新制度的話他涉及到我們提供了現在已經提供了三階段的過渡跟調適措施那其實上我們也都在試算而且這個東西最後我們是要2026年才接軌市場上有對這經驗有很多的傳言事實上都不是最後確定的數字那會比這個還高嗎"},{"start":8444.352,"end":8461.577,"text":"各個公司的條件不同我現在只關心兩家公司嘛就是星光人壽、三商人壽啊對從現在目前來看確實我們以我們現在資本氏族的條件來看確實現在是星光、三商這兩家公司是不符現階段我們的RBC制度的"},{"start":8462.901,"end":8490.649,"text":"是阿是阿好那請教齁這個之前我們的這個黃主委有對這一個新光能壽的這個董事長魏寶生有給他裁罰啦他現在好像是看在你的面子上他有放棄了這個行政書應該不是這是他們自己考慮的結果跟你沒有關係就對了跟你沒有關係不是因為說是因為你們這個之前有曾經有有這一個他當這個金融總會秘書長的時候你是副秘書長不是因為這層關係"},{"start":8494.135,"end":8511.151,"text":"今天談ESG,其實ESG是一個好的生意有很多金融的產品都是掛ESG,但是很多是掛羊頭賣狗肉我看到你們有ESG的指引,這有確定了嗎?"},{"start":8514.042,"end":8523.25,"text":"我剛才跟其他委員報告過我最近幾天剛批的一個公文最近應該會發布是怎樣?你們有這個金融機構房票率參考指引嗎?"},{"start":8524.605,"end":8543.997,"text":"我們對於各種的不管是文字描述或是很多的認定我們都有寫更清楚的指引給大家參考這指引能不能給我們一份沒問題因為你簽過了嘛沒問題給我們一份好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝李坤成委員的質詢接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢在武力法委員質詢之後我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":8549.895,"end":8555.576,"text":"感謝召委我可不可以邀請我們主委跟莊部長有請彭主委有請莊部長"},{"start":8559.284,"end":8587.007,"text":"今天兩位都在其實非常好我先延續一下剛才李委員的問題三商美邦跟新壽的部分其實剛才主委的態度也說明得很清楚他們這兩家其實都在這個月有送出他們財務的改善計畫那我想請問一下彭主委就是說財務改善計畫送出來之後接下來如果他們沒有辦法達到"},{"start":8587.768,"end":8589.85,"text":"我們過去已經有非常明確的步驟來做這件事情"},{"start":8615.029,"end":8615.49,"text":"這兩件事情 您的立場是什麼?"},{"start":8641.94,"end":8660.822,"text":"其實根據我們保險法的規定我們在依法請他提供提出各種的改善計畫這本來就是各家公司的決定那如果藉由合併改善提出你的態度呢我剛才提到過合併不會立刻改善他的情況因為他只會把那你會同意合併嗎"},{"start":8662.284,"end":8679.465,"text":"合併我們尊重市場機制但是合併他一定會仔細分析過他們的利弊得失我清楚他也會跟你們溝通那如果在第一個階段沒有辦法達到的話你們會給予更多的監理寬容嗎"},{"start":8681.414,"end":8710.265,"text":"關融是一致性的不會針對各家公司而做我知道我問的就是這兩家你會給更多的監理看因為他們現在已經提出他們的改善計畫那可能沒有辦法一步到位你後續你們的態度是什麼?這跟委員報告一下像比如說我們根據依法請他們在一定時限內提供所謂的改善計畫這是法律定的這個並不是個寬容措施這個就是我們過去我知道要達到那如果他們提"},{"start":8710.865,"end":8712.045,"text":"請問部長你有收到今晚會的建議函了嗎?"},{"start":8740.949,"end":8756.893,"text":"金管會的建議事實上在年初已經給我們表達他們的意見他們的意見最主要就是說對於在金融特別準備金裡面的錢希望能夠留存還是在那邊2100億的部分可以留存在這個準備金裡面在存保裡頭"},{"start":8761.994,"end":8770.2,"text":"那至於未來所收的金融業稅是否要金融金額準備金額的部分他沒有意見那至於稅率怎麼樣調整朋友網拍是3%你們有討論過了嗎這個部分對於金融業稅未來要做就是說要不要怎麼調整就是今年借滿以後要不要怎麼調整我們跟金管會也有充分的討論跟溝通那方向是什麼我知道你們有充分討論過了"},{"start":8785.671,"end":8809.716,"text":"有共識了嗎?第一個我們就整個金融業的一個金融營業稅過往的一個歷史怎麼樣的演變以及歷次的調整的原因是什麼我們先去做了一個探討那第二個金融業稅對於整個我們金融業的國際競爭力以及部長這個我都清楚我們都做討論沒關係我都清楚你我都清楚你只要告訴我答案就好因為我等一下要問ESG這個我們這個部分我們還是在繼續討論當中"},{"start":8813.317,"end":8825.23,"text":"有沒有支持金融委員會的建議書的意見嗎?金融建議書裡面對於我們要放在金融準備金額的部分我們基本上是支持的就是還是會放在2100還是會放在存保裡頭那到底降到2%、3%有共識了嗎?我們2%或3%或者是幾%我們這個部分我們已經還在討論以及做相關的試算"},{"start":8834.12,"end":8860.721,"text":"也在試算當中所以還在磨合當中就對了有機會有共識不是2%就是3%但是不知道是幾%也沒這麼說我只是說調降為幾%那你什麼時候會對外公布這個部分也跟法律的修正會有關係所以我們必須要完成相關的一定程序我知道大概是什麼時候總是有一個時程表如果要修正的話我們一定會依照法律我們會做預告的"},{"start":8861.081,"end":8886.197,"text":"因為年底到期嘛所以大概是什麼時候因為法律修正案這個會期7月中大概是什麼時候對那因為整個要到金融業所以這個部分是到年底那所以我們會應該會在年底之前一定會有一個年底之前一定會有結果下個會期下個會期一開始就會送預估應該會在下個會期是一開始就會送到7月15號嘛那預告都還要60天啊"},{"start":8888.238,"end":8916.592,"text":"所以下個會期就一定會送一開議就會送部長請回我請主委主委接下來我還是要問一下ESG的制度的評鑑策略昨天您到我辦公室我們第一次見面溝通的時候我有跟您提到ESG的部分我們目前在著重的部分都在環境保護ESG的部分跟公司治理的部分在社會責任的部分"},{"start":8917.779,"end":8943.047,"text":"我覺得有更多加強的地方昨天我們有討論到那當然我覺得這個ESG會可以隨著環境的變化需求可以有一些調整的空間那我昨天也跟你提到就是說當然政府的職能有限預算也有限譬如說在我選區裡面您過去從學校校園出來你非常知道公部門的預算有限所以"},{"start":8943.707,"end":8969.882,"text":"有沒有機會在評鑑的部分好比說在我的選區裡面過去的小學台美國小它就是一個在工業區裡面的學校校舍很破舊環境也不好那當然經過大家的努力現在環境好一些所以我一直在思考說在企業的社會責任裡面有沒有機會在我們的這個公務的預算政府職能或預算不足的部分再加一個評鑑的項目在裡頭"},{"start":8973.793,"end":8994.123,"text":"這個我們有兩個方向剛才跟委員也包括我們有一個就是公司治理評鑑另外一個永續這個金融評鑑那剛才提的應該是公司治理評鑑現在我們在做為了要轉型做ESG嘛那這部分的話我想我們的指標是隨時滾動的啦隨時滾動調整所以主委這個部分有沒有機會納入滾動式機動的調整來支持這樣的一個項目"},{"start":8999.326,"end":9000.086,"text":"主委你個人是否支持這件事情"},{"start":9014.27,"end":9035.961,"text":"政府的職能有限,對於公立的...我當然是持支持的態度啊謝謝主委因為它是ESG裡面的一塊嘛感謝主委你的回應喔主委我接下來還是要請問一下就是剛才委員也有提到其他委員也有提到包括金融機構房票率的參與指標的部分當然我們現在對於大家都在做這些"},{"start":9037.602,"end":9037.702,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9060.832,"end":9081.977,"text":"會不會管理的作為會是柔性的勸導還是未來我們會做開罰的動作因為這牽涉到包括刑罰也好還是罰款都罰得很重但是包括在公司治理公開發行的公司裡面他也要做永續的申報書包括他也要揭露氣候的這個相關的一些資訊跟資料"},{"start":9083.818,"end":9087.861,"text":"在財報跟煙霧文件裡面如果是虛偽的記載我們就擔心說這個是涉及到刑罰跟財罰非常的嚴重所以我才請教部長對於現在的要求你們到底是柔性的勸導還是未來就要開始執行"},{"start":9110.719,"end":9127.576,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛提到那個指引就是那個現在只是一個我們叫做指引那指引我們會試行一個階段然後我們再考慮按照我們過去的步驟大概是不是納入治理規範逐步而來看因為剛開始做可能需要一些調適跟調整"},{"start":9128.777,"end":9150.26,"text":"好那再來剛才委員有提到說這到底有沒有涉及到所謂的刑責其實我們剛剛也有報告過我們現在的比如說這永續報告書是交易所他提供的這樣的要求他還沒有納入到我們剛剛這裡面這所謂的那個文件就法律規定的文件裡面當然假設他納入年報的話那個大概就是有這樣的一個效力"},{"start":9152.762,"end":9174.76,"text":"謝謝主委您的回應因為我關注到司法院副院長賴英兆其實之前就有寫了一篇文章他說永續報告書所揭露的資訊必須真實無期如果內容造假自然就應當負法律責任那最重的可能還要達到10年的刑罰所以金管會我才問金管會這邊您的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":9175.22,"end":9176.681,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":9212.551,"end":9213.113,"text":"有請專部長、有請彭主委"},{"start":9224.614,"end":9248.733,"text":"委員好我想首先恭喜兩位繼續跟行政團隊一起打拼那現在重點就是我想很多的委員所提出來的問題在這邊我再請莊部長回覆一下有關財化法現在正在財委會即將審查所以財政部的立場會不會提出行政院的版本"},{"start":9250.275,"end":9276.178,"text":"跟委員報告目前並沒有行政院的版本因為我們還在進行有關各地方政府對於這個分配指標的一個我們必須要有一個共識所以我只有一個要求因為委員會已經要開始出審了那我們昨天已經跟要求主計處的新的主計長希望能夠在委員會審查的同時請財政部也配合一件事情就是"},{"start":9277.339,"end":9304.377,"text":"先以111年的預算決算來做一個在目前財務委員會裡面的16個版本每一個版本的公式可能影響的內容跟金額請你們做一個試算做一個模組出來讓我們大家在委員會審查的時候各個委員都可以看到假如用A版本會變成什麼樣B版本會怎麼樣會影響到多少我想這個可能在財政部也配合"},{"start":9305.217,"end":9319.178,"text":"處理的情況下大家可以看到比較完整的輪廓是我知道委員您的意思但是我們在試算的時候我們可以用某一年的一個時增數來算對不對那所以我們有算出來各個版本中央要試數增加試數這個是有數字"},{"start":9321.221,"end":9348.47,"text":"但是在分配的部分因為版本裡面的相關指標並不具體不具體的情況下你在計算上就是你先把可能各版本尤其是像營業稅要多少留在地方這些東西可能先計算出來那個有計算出來的這個部分就麻煩你也提供給本席我想這個也是將來在審查的時候部長你也必須要回應的東西但是在分配的部分事實上橫向分配可能各個指標沒關係那個就是要討論的內容"},{"start":9349.71,"end":9373.466,"text":"好 第二個部分就是那天主委剛上任我就問過主委一件事大家今天要同時問一下部長財政部其實在111年大家在討論說現在的很有名的叫做網紅然後網紅要不要科稅科稅的模式所以你們去做了一個研究報告網紅獲利模式跟嚴定中所稅的課稅規範這個報告在112年4月就已經出爐了"},{"start":9377.208,"end":9401.627,"text":"那現在希望這個報告的建議事項是要提供一個所謂嚴體網紅科稅須知或問答集的QA但是我還沒有看到財政部的問答集也沒有看到QA也沒有看到科稅規範我們先看到了金管會針對網紅做了一個非常有可愛的定義來主委你現在那天問你你說你不知道什麼是網紅現在你知道了嗎"},{"start":9404.871,"end":9405.191,"text":"金管會網紅定義"},{"start":9417.321,"end":9441.233,"text":"知道了我們金管會是因為太多的投信投顧業他應該要取得執照才可以做相關的所謂的解析但是我們現在的網紅每個都是投資專家每一個都在他的社群網站上面可以告訴大家哪個股票很棒哪個什麼事情很好所以投信投顧業他定了一個定義網紅你們找不到是嗎那我唸給你聽好了"},{"start":9442.293,"end":9452.732,"text":"常態性與網路．包括但不限社群媒體．影音平台或線上媒體．發表資訊內容供大眾閱覽．並以此引力者．也就是他引力為目標"},{"start":9455.014,"end":9482.406,"text":"那請問莊部長,你們的網紅定義出來了嗎?基本上我們沒有所謂的網紅,也就是說你們出了那個報告研究了半天,所以沒有網紅這個定義我們重點是在於你透過網路去直銷貨物或老物,你有所得要怎麼課稅那這個課稅我們現在命在,剛剛委員也很清楚,我們在訂相關的規範那這規範大概原則有了,那細節的部分我們還進行要訂得更詳細,那未來會讓他非常的詳細的"},{"start":9483.166,"end":9483.426,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9502.301,"end":9524.079,"text":"投信投顧其實不是最多網紅的問題其實現在最多的部分代言的人叫做虛擬資產虛擬資產運用各種不同的網紅在網路上面不斷的宣傳因為虛擬資產沒有管理辦法所以幫他代言更沒有管理規範如果我們真的要規範不是只有規範投信投顧"},{"start":9525.08,"end":9539.289,"text":"接下去的虛擬資產現在有一堆網紅在做代言目前虛擬資產又沒有知道原則所以基本叫做無法可管所以我今天要說的是就剛剛主委說的我們要課稅原則"},{"start":9542.802,"end":9569.435,"text":"金管會針對你們所定的投信投顧還有接下去的虛擬資產我覺得要一起納入管理也就是說你們兩邊的定義可能要去討論一下而不是片面一個單位來做認定兩位同意嗎我想就稅的部分剛剛提過就他這樣網路銷售他的定義跟你的定義還是要一定的討論網紅那個就是大家普通的通知也不知道什麼是網紅"},{"start":9570.7,"end":9584.957,"text":"因為你們的報告我看到的是你們就是要去討論網紅獲利模式所以現在又不是網紅所以只要網路通過的你們就來討論所以部長你可能要在麥克風前面講是就是說我們是"},{"start":9587.099,"end":9606.047,"text":"委託研究那個是一個名稱但是事實上在這裡面我們未來課稅沒有所謂的網紅就是你透過網路去銷售貨物老屋依照現行的法規要課什麼稅我今天指的目的就是希望他的定義清楚目標明確第二個該納管的要納管而不是只有投信投顧在納管虛擬資產完全沒人管"},{"start":9607.009,"end":9619.299,"text":"主委你了解我的意思剛剛委員提到我們現在虛擬資產是有那個指引只有一個指引但是沒有任何管理辦法所以即使是幫他代言因為現在這樣的狀況跟詐騙其實是有連結的"},{"start":9624.904,"end":9653.565,"text":"我們希望要納管就認真的納管而不是掛一漏萬好 另外一個問題就是上一次我有質詢郭部長新清安貸款當然是我們新的政策對於居住正義很大的幫助那新清安貸款我們上次也問過了問了一些問題今天主委新來我們就來一起再問一次因為新清安貸款它有一個很重要的要求要求自住所以自住裡面它就不可以所謂的租出去"},{"start":9654.506,"end":9670.052,"text":"所以在受信的過程中我上次問的部長是說現在銀行都會要求會徵信也會去看現場但是事實上有沒有做到實質的徵信今天應該是各行庫的董事長跟"},{"start":9671.693,"end":9671.713,"text":"兩位"},{"start":9699.131,"end":9726.43,"text":"跟委員報告新清安貸款如您剛剛說它有好的一個政策意義但是不是被人濫用拿去做所謂的投機這是最重要的一點它變成人頭它變成拿出去轉租對這是不可以的那所以這個部分呢我們第一個要請公股航庫對於我們用清安貸款貸出去的這個對象我們可能要去分析一下它真正的情況搞不好還跟你申請了還跟內政部申請了租金補貼或者是貸款補貼"},{"start":9728.111,"end":9746.561,"text":"對,所以我們會用相關的資料來做勾結我想這個部分我們後續會來做好,一樣的就是我們希望這些給年輕人的善意的政策不要讓年輕人成為炒房的工具甚至用納稅人的錢去做了這些補貼最後變成這些包租工"},{"start":9747.361,"end":9747.861,"text":"現在市場上面普遍"},{"start":9775.592,"end":9790.412,"text":"民眾因為沒有對於相關的資訊不是很完整所以他會受到網紅的影響而且影響力很大這個影響力連金管會信投顧這邊都非常的謹慎同樣的虛擬資產我希望包括"},{"start":9792.134,"end":9808.978,"text":"財政部我也希望你們擬出來以後類似的人不管他是哪個行業都應該是一視同仁而且該怎麼做就怎麼做所以主委你不能只管投信投顧啊你可能要連虛擬資產的網紅要一起納管如果要納管我們可能就要全面性的納管兩位可以嗎"},{"start":9809.707,"end":9812.389,"text":"所以主委,研議要快一點,因為虛擬資產已經是一個成熟的市場了"},{"start":9828.763,"end":9829.664,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢 接著請吳立華委員質詢"},{"start":9861.331,"end":9864.517,"text":"主席好有請金管會主委有請彭主委"},{"start":9870.731,"end":9892.385,"text":"委員好主委好今天委員會特別安排如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作的專題報告那我跟主委說這個會期初"},{"start":9895.587,"end":9915.02,"text":"3月4號的時候其實我也有就這個部分來質詢我們的前金管會主委那當時呢我是提到當我們談ESG的時候我們是提到環境永續的關心還有企業的社會責任"},{"start":9918.643,"end":9932.354,"text":"金管會提出的綠色金融行動方案3.0公告的這些我有特別問這個永續到底有沒有包含原住民族的金融"},{"start":9934.187,"end":9949.188,"text":"我特別有提到幾個國家像是澳洲主委您應該知道他們有建立原住民的金融服務辦公室有關注原住民金融架構設計跟服務的包容性"},{"start":9949.989,"end":9970.567,"text":"有鼓勵金融機構讓原住民更容易獲得銀行的服務有強化對原住民有益且適當的保險產品並且在投資者的淨值調查過程中有尊重原住民的權利、知情同意"},{"start":9971.989,"end":9991.908,"text":"紐西蘭的土地跟我們目前台灣原住民土地是一樣的它有限制所以難以做擔保品所以他們就辦理計畫跟銀行合作支持開發針對這一些原住民土地貸款的解決方案"},{"start":9992.984,"end":10016.536,"text":"在加拿大他們也是加強原住民族在永續金融的參與其中提到綠色與轉型的金融他們對於不造成重大損害評估的時候有包含尊重原住民權利和和解反觀我們提出的綠色金融行動方案3.0好像"},{"start":10018.917,"end":10048.252,"text":"沒有辦法看到這些有關原住民族參與跟支持的機制更遑論去考量綠色融資對象影響原住民權益的情形所以呢我在跟主委報告的時候就是說過去可能沒有人關注沒有人提醒那我們現在關注現在提醒所以我請金管會要聯同原民會"},{"start":10048.972,"end":10075.031,"text":"去參考澳洲、加拿大、紐西蘭這些國家在永續金融架構中納入尊重原住民族權利的具體措施來修改綠色金融行動方案並在三個月內提出那我要跟主委您說我要謝謝因為還沒有到三個月我已經收到金管會的回函了"},{"start":10077.973,"end":10083.138,"text":"1.兼顧原住民保留地發展及維護生物多樣性2."},{"start":10083.138,"end":10087.162,"text":"鼓勵銀行協助原住民取得資金3."},{"start":10087.162,"end":10091.627,"text":"研議原住民保留地設定擔保的可行性4."},{"start":10091.627,"end":10093.989,"text":"協調銀行積極配合辦理政策性貸款"},{"start":10094.79,"end":10119.616,"text":"第四提升多元族群權益的目標納入永續金融評鑑指標第五協力金融教育推動小組提升原住民族群的金融教育推廣好那我要請教一下主委您看過這個回覆的內容了嗎這個內容是應該是我昨天還前天我一個字一個字看完才記得"},{"start":10120.436,"end":10123.237,"text":"同仁們針對委員所提的各種的訴求他們都有想盡辦法去回應比如說他對於這個元寶地的貸款"},{"start":10138.163,"end":10156.44,"text":"他們也提出很多的其他的建議比如說希望未來跟原民會做合作比如說能夠像我們講因為銀行在待放需要有透明的價格資訊希望我們也協調比如說內政部能夠在實價登錄能夠放上原保地的交易價格還有提到就是說我們也看到了也有金融機構已經"},{"start":10157.361,"end":10159.262,"text":"主委,謝謝您的回應,非常的清楚那我是要再做一些提醒,好還要更好"},{"start":10187.441,"end":10204.626,"text":"我舉個例子銀行可協助原住民參考永續經濟活動認定參考指引來認定永續經濟活動的要件我們進去細看我以原住民的觀點去細看"},{"start":10205.882,"end":10205.902,"text":"是"},{"start":10222.476,"end":10235.769,"text":"現在小型露營場合法化很多原住民針對林地、農牧用地他有做最低限度利用開發的小型露營場他也是一種低碳跟循環經濟的活動,對吧?同意對齁,好那我要講的就是說他應該是適用永續經濟活動認定參考指引的,沒錯吧?"},{"start":10247.879,"end":10266.945,"text":"委員這個可以允許我們處長來跟您回答這個問題好 謝謝我只是要提醒我們原住民這些經常性的普遍性的經濟活動也要了解啊要不然寫一堆以我來講我都不知道到底我適用哪一條所以這個部分是不是可以來討論"},{"start":10268.645,"end":10282.783,"text":"先跟委員報告一下就我們目前了解就是原住民這邊大概比較有興趣的包含像是對再生能源例如說像光電板的建置然後像剛剛委員這邊所說的這個碳補桌的部分其實可以看那個右邊前瞻經濟活動"},{"start":10284.485,"end":10284.765,"text":"單保品會是什麼?"},{"start":10310.865,"end":10333.24,"text":"這個可能就要看銀行這邊他們所以我說我們原住民這些適用嗎我想這個部分我只是做提醒主委您應該明白我的意思我理解又舉個例子來講像增加銀行的誘因那當然董事、負責人、高階經理人鼓勵強化高階人員金融友善教育訓練"},{"start":10336.045,"end":10351.113,"text":"檢視現階段提供的金融服務兼顧弱勢族群的需求很好很好但是主委我覺得當我們來到銀行窗口何待的一線人員您覺得重不重要"},{"start":10353.141,"end":10367.69,"text":"這個其實每個環節都很重要對 所以我就是要提醒那我們都提到弱勢族群但是第一線的人員或者銀行他會如何去定義弱勢族群他可能以為是老人啊他可能以為是青年啊"},{"start":10368.59,"end":10369.311,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":10384.648,"end":10407.721,"text":"但是你已經回覆了以要求評鑑小組將原住民放款的指標列入未來評鑑項目並請原民會提供嚴定的建議謝謝真的是見急履急主委你真的很不錯那我是希望說請金管會兩個月內能夠去重整原民會的意見跟本席提出的這一些疑議檢討現有"},{"start":10409.482,"end":10409.702,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":10439.912,"end":10455.338,"text":"部長我是想要請教因為我也問過很多次財政部是不是已經將乘坐元寶地放貸納入公股行庫的ESG評鑑指標並列為加分項目提高公股銀行乘坐的誘因跟意願有了嗎"},{"start":10456.218,"end":10483.863,"text":"委員這個建議很好但是我們會在有關相關目前的一個建架跟信用保證機制建立完備讓公股行戶可以去做這個事情以後我們就會把你預期大概多久那這個部分因為建架的部分涉及到內政部那信用保證機制原民會這邊也在努力我想這兩個部會都在努力我們把這個地方建立起來大家都在努力中公股行戶可以做的時候把它放起來那我就舉一個例子來我們之前有一些"},{"start":10485.043,"end":10485.263,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10503.837,"end":10524.498,"text":"那最近今年3月的高雄市也有一個拉瓦克部落的拆遷那陳其邁市長也很棒他直接說原住民是台灣土地的主人從優安置也給予333的安置那我現在要請教在屏東88風災後這一些安居在永久屋的族人吶"},{"start":10525.319,"end":10551.579,"text":"有一些他們並沒有辦法取得房屋因為是1比1所以他們希望釋出一些空地讓他們自己蓋那我現在就是想要請教啦那我們現在如果原民會願意提供信用保證那我們能不能夠比照我剛才談的那些其他國家他們的永續金融中心像紐西蘭他們有在協助這種原住民的自立建屋啊"},{"start":10552.279,"end":10574.423,"text":"因為現在政府已經提供基礎建設的經費現政府也釋出土地讓他們使用現在要面臨貸款今天應該很多銀行都有來我就想要當著財政部長您的面我問一下請問在座的根股銀行你們有沒有人願意主動承接貸款業務有沒有舉個手部長你看沒有呢有沒有獎勵措施有沒有誘因"},{"start":10584.161,"end":10585.024,"text":"有了嗎?臺灣銀行?好!謝謝!臺灣銀行感謝您!"},{"start":10589.571,"end":10589.951,"text":"我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":10636.989,"end":10639.291,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11219.858,"end":11232.004,"text":"好我們繼續開會請相關人員就座保持宿敬以方便我們議會的進行接著我們請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":11253.003,"end":11257.129,"text":"謝謝主席,我先請金管委彭主委有請彭主委"},{"start":11264.912,"end":11284.406,"text":"黃主委有三種刷卡消費延後24小時生效這是我們金管會現在針對打詐要祭出的新的策略遊戲點數、錢包組織、電子禮券我認為金管會有欠缺考慮為什麼"},{"start":11286.227,"end":11312.262,"text":"打詐要從抓源頭開始結果你先從處罰使用端開始這不是很莫名其妙嗎尤其電子禮券這是我們一般小市民的小確幸欸電子禮券很多商家餐廳他們主打的就是急買急用買多優惠"},{"start":11313.656,"end":11316.617,"text":"金管會自己關起門來決定欸 你們自己關起門來 你們"},{"start":11339.859,"end":11349.556,"text":"這個完全沒有找相關的比方說這個電子支付業者你完全沒有啊你們只有信用卡委員會自己開會"},{"start":11351.144,"end":11377.099,"text":"5月8號你們開會就決定啦5月24號你們只是通知通知相關業者你不是找他來開會喔那很扯的是現在這種遊戲點數定型化契約欸這個要談這個很好但是你應該橫向溝通找數位部一起來商量啊不是這樣子嗎結果我問了數位部他說你們都沒有找他商量過"},{"start":11378.668,"end":11390.432,"text":"這很莫名其妙我認為現在對使用端懲罰是懲罰了小市民這四個字形容啦這個叫矯枉過正所以彭主委我認為儘管要管對管大的事情"},{"start":11397.881,"end":11414.31,"text":"法律要對強者有效不是去對小市民對強者、惡劣者能夠懲罰他們制裁他們社會才有公理不是這樣嗎你剛才好意思說有啦我有設一個3000塊的限制門檻天啊"},{"start":11419.249,"end":11433.594,"text":"我們小市民就只能在3000塊裡面打打轉就對了我說人頭的管理兩年前我們通過要下架投資詐騙的廣告"},{"start":11435.322,"end":11450.955,"text":"一年前去年的4月以後通過網路投資廣告這個實名制通過以後彭主委當然啦這你現在才上任我讓你知道一下這些慘況我四個字形容越打越炸通過以後光是光是111年6542件37億的詐騙金額"},{"start":11464.076,"end":11467.977,"text":"隔一年更多11,775件53.7億你剛剛在跟我談那個3000塊去年今年我就講今年今年光一到三月就3316件尾數300件去掉平均一個月1000件今年啦預估會到12000件預估金額會被詐騙60億天啊你剛剛在跟我談3000塊"},{"start":11495.02,"end":11497.042,"text":"我認為說這些是現在嚴重的情況要面對它那這個前幾天要問啊這你還沒上任前啊"},{"start":11508.868,"end":11534.778,"text":"大概兩個月前那問軍管會那軍管會說六月底前就五位投資廣告的實名智慧上路結果啊結果處發部啊處發部在前天的回答他說光是改這個系統要八個月天啊彭主委你回去查一下齁到底是你你們軍管會說的六月底上路還是要八個月"},{"start":11538.61,"end":11538.771,"text":"主席時間暫停"},{"start":11549.848,"end":11573.148,"text":"總部長這個要談到這個ESG齁我認為齁剛剛大家談很多了啦這關於環境社會責任公司治理這個ESG的這個表格那我認為齁要真的落實才有用啦不是說啊有ESG表格那大家就填一填高高興興這樣填一填這個"},{"start":11576.465,"end":11580.086,"text":"不落實我就四個字形容形同虛色不是嗎你這樣子的表格我舉幾個例子啦就是我們公營行庫我們公營行庫合作金庫啦合作金庫"},{"start":11599.662,"end":11619.255,"text":"這個受信申請的案件我光講2022年到今年4月他受理54959件這個受信案件涉及ESG的有984件結果沒有核准受信的只有4件只有4件"},{"start":11622.037,"end":11644.467,"text":"喔 我不曉得這些借款的 而且借的金額都很大這些借款可能神通廣大吧那第一銀行也是啊他有900光去年有986件涉及ESG風險也是只有4件 抱歉 剛才合作禁錮還少一件 三件三件 因為這個"},{"start":11650.728,"end":11670.528,"text":"第一銀行4件沒通過986件你只有4件沒有通過已經明顯涉及ESG風險喔然後你還其他的你通通通過你連增加他利息加碼都沒有就給他通過那你在ESG在審什麼呢"},{"start":11675.206,"end":11684.111,"text":"那我就舉這個一項標榜自我標榜說是他這個模範銀行華南銀行也是華南銀行更扯涉及ESG風險的案件他零件每一件都通過華南銀行在搞什麼呢董事長總經理有沒有來"},{"start":11700.376,"end":11706.257,"text":"莊部長在你任命了嗎?時間暫停,董事長總經理都有到,要請他們上來備詢嗎?張董你們懷疑記稱是模範銀行欸董事長總經理,回去檢討一下你這個ESG的表格是做來給大家看一看交差了事的嗎?"},{"start":11730.865,"end":11754.525,"text":"臨界捏臨界捏要不然你好歹就我剛講的嘛你硬要給他通過好啦那你至少加一加他們的利率不是嗎不是嗎所以你們把這個問題帶回去你另外再回答我好不好那個部長你任命的喔董事長總經理像這樣的董事長總經理你就應該跟他們"},{"start":11756.884,"end":11774.281,"text":"記個小過啦好不好好啦兩位請回我另外謝謝委員指教那我想在這裡有沒有核准的案件的件數但是也有有條件通過的包含他有核檢他的核代金額或限制整整條件也是有的有加注條件也有加注條件的所以我們另外處罰是"},{"start":11777.332,"end":11784.654,"text":"不核准這個最嚴重要不然就立即加碼是其次嚴重再用好加注一點條件給貓掛鈴鐺就對了我剛剛講的議員我剛剛為什麼提議員你知道因為最扯的議員他還是我們ESG推動的時候還負責召集所有公股、行庫"},{"start":11803.997,"end":11811.647,"text":"來推這個倡議平台那倡議什麼倡議他們說這個表格大家參考參考是這樣嗎所以議員的責任更重大好不好議員這還算是也算是模範理論那我剛剛為什麼說"},{"start":11823.993,"end":11831.518,"text":"法律要對強者、惡劣者去制裁才對為什麼我就舉例嘛ESG我就舉我就講這個新復發建設"},{"start":11834.783,"end":11860.524,"text":"因為大家耳熟能講新復發建設除了這個終結這個案子其他從南到北高雄、台中、桃園都有他的案子到板橋、台北這從文興、愛樂、經貿中心、中山、珍藏這名字我就不念了他光這裡面一兩個案子都"},{"start":11861.843,"end":11881.508,"text":"由趙鋒、海外營業、在內供股銀行連帶他111億這麼明顯的他這些案件每一個我剛唸的每一個案件都有公安少則火災重則啊工人意外墜樓三個五個這樣不幸身亡"},{"start":11883.148,"end":11884.629,"text":"數條山兄弟數條山兄弟"},{"start":11911.633,"end":11917.737,"text":"我就兩句話講他 剝削客戶權益違反社會公義這是不是嚴重的涉及ESG風險結果我們九大公營行戶還連帶給他2600億剛才彭主任你還跟我講對三頭小民對他們的設限你說啊 3000塊"},{"start":11940.049,"end":11941.41,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員質詢接著我們請羅明采委員質詢"},{"start":11978.959,"end":11987.422,"text":"主席、各位委員、出列席、官員大家好主席、有請彭主委、還有莊部長有請彭主委、有請莊部長委員好部長好那其實ESG我們都希望永續的發展"},{"start":12000.404,"end":12027.367,"text":"但是在普惠金融這一塊我想最近很多委員也都是跟本席一樣非常的關心我們發現整個金融的發展跟布局大概總歸的講就是肥了大企業瘦了小老百姓的確很多的民眾因為M型化社會的來臨"},{"start":12029.207,"end":12046.17,"text":"辛苦的非常多舉個例子主委我請教你啊股市現在都已經漲到2萬點 站穩2萬多點可是真正賺錢的行業大概百分比有多少你們有沒有算過當股市到2萬點的時候我們發現傳產的一些"},{"start":12054.167,"end":12054.427,"text":"現在我了解一下狀況"},{"start":12079.003,"end":12093.735,"text":"對,希望主委,因為你剛剛來啦齁,其實身負重任我們希望說社會的和諧、永續是平均把國家的資源照顧到每個人的身上我知道很辛苦,謝謝也是講求利潤"},{"start":12100.029,"end":12125.619,"text":"但是不要忘記了沒有過去的努力沒有過去的農民沒有過去的傳統產業撐起台灣一邊天這些好的電子公司也不會有今天的成就啊當我們看到AI的時代來臨時候我們看到Jason Huang他回到台灣來我們看到很感動"},{"start":12127.182,"end":12154.264,"text":"因為他是臺灣人啊臺南人啊不只他蘇之鋒還有第四名的Charles全部都是臺灣人啊臺北公專畢業的啊這都不容易啊但是提醒主委跟部長當他們撐起一片天總市值超過接近三兆美金的時候"},{"start":12155.677,"end":12181.938,"text":"我們要主動的跟他們聯絡請他們有機會不要忘了台灣這個地方生他養他育他的地方多多給台灣機會特別是應該多給台灣的年輕人機會主委部長我想請問部長一下我們的八大公股銀行裡面平均年齡是多少"},{"start":12190.823,"end":12212.589,"text":"這也是請兩位上來的原因之一我們的一些公股銀行不斷地老化呈現的就是老業凋零都是一些老人反而我們看到一些新興的一些金融產業年輕人都很多"},{"start":12213.902,"end":12241.994,"text":"包括電商交易也好包括Fintech比較在沙盒裡面都是一些年輕人可是我發現政府的政策都是保護過去的老思維比較多就過去怎麼做就是照本宣科所以銀行、董、總永遠都沒有求新求變更恍然"},{"start":12243.53,"end":12257.904,"text":"永續的這個經營的一個思想主委我想請教一下國外的數據來說整個GDP裡面金融的分配佔比大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":12259.588,"end":12279.44,"text":"我所掌握的資料台灣現在是大概是佔GDP的6%左右6%那其他可能我們周邊可能將近兩位數字兩位數對所以從這個兩位數的成長我們就發現台灣的金融要加油所以莊部長"},{"start":12280.851,"end":12308.589,"text":"金融營業稅從5%要調降到2%或者是有人外界解讀的3%部長什麼時候開始推動?金融營業稅的部分其實就是銀行業的還有保險業的本業的部分其他的部分目前大致都是2%那至於這兩頁要不要做調整我想我們跟金管會也都在充分的討論當中"},{"start":12309.821,"end":12336.778,"text":"好 謝謝那你們兩位現在都在阿你馬上討論阿這個那麼簡單就是說你要降到3%或是降到2%數字你們有沒有彼此有沒有加line我們會你把所有的數字一傳見面那麼大的官員見面就是政策方向要不要確定要不要定案省下來的稅金要做什麼樣的使用"},{"start":12337.618,"end":12363.261,"text":"是不是來多多加強整個所有金融人員的訓練?或者是多多銀行要鼓勵他們來加薪啊?是,委員您的建議很好,我們都會納入這個考量。部長你知道,剛剛有提到華南清空也好,和庫清空也好,他們在公股銀行裡面表現,算還是中上,前段班的,"},{"start":12364.332,"end":12384.627,"text":"可是你知道,他們跟富邦、跟國泰、跟一些外商銀行的薪水差了多少?舉例,核庫的董事長好了,他一個月薪水大概多少?我不曉得他一個月薪水多少?男人在啊,你馬上問就知道了啊。"},{"start":12388.085,"end":12402.578,"text":"新展銀行新加坡總經理董事長一個月薪水多少?那一定也是比我們高嗎?高多少?高多少?不知道啊。心理你要知道說整個市場的變化"},{"start":12403.621,"end":12421.352,"text":"才知道應該怎麼選任新的人來擔任新的事務是部長請問你最近已經到了六七月公股銀行有幾家準備要進行董事長總經理的改選"},{"start":12423.147,"end":12429.993,"text":"今年會有三家銀行哪三家三家就是兆豐嘛兆豐有沒有來第一還有台企銀還有三家這個部分要做改選目前來說他們會在6月21號召開相關的董事會股東會已經到了會召開6月21號這過幾天就端午節了也跟委員報告在金融機構裡面第一個我們有"},{"start":12449.309,"end":12449.469,"text":"剛剛講的這三家"},{"start":12477.16,"end":12501.4,"text":"金控公司董總會不會換人目前當然第一個我們名單是先提列出來啦到時候還是要等到大會的你可不可以把名單讓我看一下名單可以都有公告啊有公告請問聯絡人拿給我一下可以提供給委員沒問題兆豐表現得好不好兆豐表現得不錯啊不錯啊表現得好你要需要把他換掉嗎"},{"start":12502.508,"end":12503.008,"text":"雷董會繼續做?"},{"start":12514.108,"end":12530.128,"text":"這個部分我想還是要等到整個大會議那易營的呢?易營的金空董事長目前是邱董事長是表現得好不好?也很好啊那你有沒有問他要不繼續擔任啊?我沒有問他啊你馬上在啊你問一下時間暫停問一下"},{"start":12533.516,"end":12559.917,"text":"還是等一下再問他上來是要回答委員問題不是回答我的問題人事是你在決定如果我決定我馬上我就說繼續留任因為他以前在新加坡待過而且表現也非常好非常的圓融企業大家都很稱讚他而且賺錢賺得很好賺很多義營旗下義營證券都已經破紀錄對不對"},{"start":12561.718,"end":12572.706,"text":"那個EPS都創新高啊都很好的人選啊那還有哪一家台企銀台企銀董事長是劉董事長"},{"start":12573.473,"end":12579.219,"text":"臺慶過去快要瀕臨7塊6塊,已經是10塊保衛戰了,現在漲到多少錢?好的不得了,以前零千號每天無名無利"},{"start":12594.634,"end":12622.031,"text":"到了10點我問他說你怎麼還不下班他說他一定要把台慶帶動起來所以當林董事長他遭到核酷然後因為太累了然後生病過世了我覺得心裡非常的捨不得啊所以部長拜託啊好的人選你要多多鼓勵然後鼓勵他們要多待一些栽培一些年輕人"},{"start":12626.213,"end":12647.346,"text":"我認識的金融機構有一家居然喔平均年紀才27、28歲或是電商啦所以我們都希望說 主委啊我們把門打開你第一天來的時候大家寄予眾望希望你是帶動整個產業蓬勃的發展過去大概幾個字可以行喔就是"},{"start":12648.564,"end":12661.377,"text":"保守有餘 開創不足希望在主委的領導之下你是讓大家可以看到亮眼的成果的好不好好 謝謝謝謝羅明台委員的質詢接著我們請陳鈺貞委員質詢我們也開放現場用餐12點了"},{"start":12677.605,"end":12679.172,"text":"有請財政部部長莊部長"},{"start":12685.245,"end":12711.154,"text":"是委員好部長好上個月22號本席有在這裡質詢您有關於這個金門自來水廠向我們財政部地方建設基金借貸2.4億那現在基金解編嘛那金門縣政府希望財政部配合水利署進入水利府撥款期程展延還款的期限那並且在虧損撥補前不要扣我們縣政府中央統籌分配稅款那您那時候表示要研議已經一個月了現在進度怎麼樣呢"},{"start":12712.639,"end":12727.93,"text":"這部分我們的國庫署也有跟金門縣政府的財政處都有了解過那這個部分他們其實金門縣政府他也表達的非常就是說他會再去研議那當然他還要跟他們的縣府來簽辦這樣子要怎麼樣的方式來對於這個2.4億怎麼樣做償還"},{"start":12734.857,"end":12757.085,"text":"因為這是幫水利署墊的啦然後你也知道這個民生用水這本來是中央的事項我已經講過很多遍不是我們金門地方政府應該負擔的所以也請你不要從我們的統籌分配款來扣啦用什麼樣的方式我們會跟金門縣的財政局處理好好的溝通聊幾句經過每年的這個撥補的差還有限還是我們還是要出一點啦"},{"start":12757.925,"end":12757.945,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":12776.03,"end":12776.17,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12794.884,"end":12808.442,"text":"很多民眾的反應怨聲載道我們了解說你們說一台X公機你們說那個已經到8年了本來打算買嘛後來是說因為等到旅客要等到新的這個遊客中心做好才開始做所以讓舊的先撐著用是這樣嗎"},{"start":12811.369,"end":12817.491,"text":"來說我們會在114年的時候會優先買兩台那就四台本來去年就有編這個預算嘛X11真的沒有多少錢那只要故障因為還要找台灣的人過去維修所以會非常的慢"},{"start":12827.035,"end":12855.817,"text":"那這非常慢的情況下就造成大排長龍又每次只要壞掉就上全國就上新聞啦對我們關務署的這個形象也不好嘛對財政部形象有損傷嘛本來就要買了那就應該買到時候買了搬到新的遊客中心再搬過去就好也不是大工程嘛110年那一台也是會壞掉啦是不是是不是盡快這個沒有很多錢為什麼不馬上買呢我們請關務署說明一下好請那個署長您說一下好嗎"},{"start":12857.078,"end":12881.675,"text":"報告委員,我們現在都有編列預算,今年也編列了兩部S光機預算我們進門地區的嗎?是不是今年的話就...那我們盡快趕那個招標的一個程序,希望在年底前能夠處理每次如果到時候萬一開放入客,或者是暑假有很多人在那裡來來去CIQS,而且那個海關事實上真的蠻忙碌,那個地點很小"},{"start":12883.436,"end":12883.716,"text":"金門地區設立銀行"},{"start":12903.976,"end":12904.036,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12924.528,"end":12932.773,"text":"也這個普惠金融來講讓大家有比較容易接近的那那個你們在做這個ESG相關的你們在做這個評比我看到金融機構對這個相關產業的壽性的這個評比裡頭有考慮到這個ESG那你們在做自己的銀行的評比裡頭對於這個在金門去設分行這個這是屬於社會性的這個部分有沒有列入相關的這個考量啊"},{"start":12951.275,"end":12975.702,"text":"關於公股行庫的部分我們其實在金門應該設的分行算是應該比民營銀行就我所知我們大概至少有4家在金門地區對那其他的民營銀行有也有幾家啦也有幾家是不是那我們在那邊總共是有5間公股銀行在金門有5間的我要說的就是說我請金管會請這個主委上來一下"},{"start":12978.246,"end":13002.699,"text":"上回我也在這邊有問所以我們要鼓勵這個你們儘管會在評比這些像比如說金融機構給這個壽信給這個民間壽信的時候你們會考慮ESG就是說社會性也是考慮一樣所以我上回應該是跟黃主委也有說過就是說那你們在鼓勵金融機構到我們這些離島偏遠基地區去設分堂的時候它的獲利不會那麼好有時候會"},{"start":13003.439,"end":13003.819,"text":"財政部和金管會對這個意見怎麼樣?"},{"start":13024.871,"end":13026.352,"text":"金管會是不是也是一樣財政部大概管這個"},{"start":13053.021,"end":13076.397,"text":"公股的嘛那民間銀行其實也是一樣啊這個我們也可以來研究啦也可以研究因為說給一些政策的時候有一些你要給他一些好的政策的時候是不是因為他有照顧到我們這個離島啊偏遠這些地區的時候給相關的這個的這個加分啊適時的鼓勵他們不然有的比較像我們這種比較遠的地區很多人不願意去做嘛這個列入包括包括"},{"start":13077.398,"end":13077.678,"text":"金管會主席"},{"start":13100.581,"end":13119.107,"text":"這個應該是財政部的綠能產業受那個風險氣候風險影響對這個客戶還款能力有影響導致違約率上升或是單保品價值下滑對金融機構的信用風險產生影響那請問你們要如何兼顧這個兼顧風險對引導金融機構兼顧風險原則下那那個引導他們投入這個金融的這個產業也投入這個綠能的產業有關綠能產業的部分"},{"start":13129.241,"end":13149.211,"text":"金融機構在做貸放的時候他一定會要根據他的5P原則以及風險的評估都要來做考量那至於投入綠能相關的產業的部分我想這是國家的一個政策那我覺得金融機構在做的時候也不能違背相關的放款的一個基本原則那綠能有關綠能產業有列入國家六大策略產業的計畫裡頭吧"},{"start":13154.193,"end":13182.584,"text":"是綠能產業的發展是很重要的所以我想請問金管會我們上個禮拜在修那個應該是兩個禮拜前在修那個投資信託的投顧相關的這個法律的時候我們那時候是要求說就是在修這個不動產這個REIT的證券化的時候我們那時候有一條那是那時候您還沒有到的時候有一條說不動產的這個部分我們是要求說在裡頭加上這個基礎及基礎設施"},{"start":13184.145,"end":13209.872,"text":"您了解我的說法,就是這個部分因為我了解這個世界各國在這個部分這個不動產證券化裡頭事實上很多基礎設施啊日本啊很多其他的國家都也已經有列入這些項目在裡頭所以我們上次在修法的時候那時候金管會對這個一直有一點意見那如果您針對這部分是不是回去可以研究一下因為國際上的整個趨勢是這樣子您了解我的說什麼嗎"},{"start":13210.572,"end":13237.491,"text":"我去了解一下就是這個部分的話就是整個那時候在修這個整部法令的時候那時候金管會一直的主張就是說一定是要什麼這個不動產的話一定要是什麼土地及其附著物但是在世界各國這個不動產證券化的這個項目事實上除了核心的部分以外事實上也還包括了其他的這個項目所以在這個法令的修正部分本身還會再提出相關的這個意見希望這個"},{"start":13238.732,"end":13238.872,"text":"黃國昌委員"},{"start":13269.275,"end":13273.196,"text":"謝謝主席,事實麻煩有請新管會主委有請彭主任委員好主委好,第二次見面是我想,IMB所造成整個社會的動盪家破人亡一堆人欲哭無淚這個主委應該都有掌握"},{"start":13298.921,"end":13322.213,"text":"現在被害人真的有關於這一些曾耀峰等等還有他的共犯集團的人啊刑事訴訟案件啊正在臺北地方法院啊審理當中但是到後端審判的時候大家都知道一件事情啊到後端審判的時候錢幾乎都追不回來了啦"},{"start":13323.2,"end":13343.579,"text":"都做不回來了啦大概就是看他被判多久附帶民事每個人發一張債權憑證帶回去吊在牆壁看著債權憑證哭啊大概這個故事可能會這樣子啊收尾好但為什麼這件事情啊重要今天要提出來問主委因為"},{"start":13345.117,"end":13365.013,"text":"P2P到底要不要管 要怎麼管這件事情在上一任的政府的時候啊 態度反覆 態度反覆從一開始2016年 要積極的研議 要設專法突然到有一天的時候 政策大轉彎"},{"start":13366.511,"end":13392.31,"text":"什麼都不管了 什麼都不管了什麼都不管 造成的悲劇就是什麼造成的悲劇就是這麼多人受害然後詐騙的首腦跟這些高官權貴吃香喝辣人民看不下去啊現在不是只有IMB囉來 我們繼續往下看P2P再度爆雷 碎心科技發出聲明"},{"start":13393.736,"end":13422.157,"text":"暫停提領出金、再權再轉讓來,數星科技所發生這一個新的導致很多的被害人可能血本無歸、血藏無門這件事情金管會有沒有去了解?委員可不可以那個允許我銀行局長來問一個問題?可以,請那個主委我跟您講一件事齁您剛上任我一定給你時間所以一開始你要找別人代打"},{"start":13423.257,"end":13450.954,"text":"除非是政策的問題我都會同意但是過一段時間以後就不可以這樣了主委這樣可以嗎理解君子之約來請局長報告委員蓄芯科技它被這個移送喔那其實我們在之前在訂定指導原則的時候我們有對不起請針對問題回答蓄芯科技的事情你們有沒有去了解我們也有從報紙上了解"},{"start":13451.494,"end":13468.913,"text":"所以你們了解的方式是閱讀報章雜誌跟我一樣因為他不是我們監理的機關那他是誰監理的機關你講到重點了他不是你們監理的機關他是誰監理的機關經濟部嗎所以我是不是應該去問經濟部部長有沒有去了解請回答"},{"start":13473.398,"end":13493.511,"text":"我們就是透過之前我們有瞭解他們的營運模式可是後續檢調去調查我現在不是在問你檢調的問題吧我剛問你說我請教你有沒有去瞭解你說沒有你看報章雜誌因為你們不是主管機關那我就問你誰是主管機關嘛我這個問題應該要問誰才對嘛請您針對問題回答有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":13499.585,"end":13517.185,"text":"他目前就是依照公司法設立登記的機關所以你們所頒布的那個自律規範因為只是自律規範嘛因為只是自律規範嘛所以你們也不是主管機關嘛那問題就來了你們也不是主管機關你憑什麼頒布自律規範啊請回答"},{"start":13523.174,"end":13546.522,"text":"報告委員因為這個在我們行政院那邊其實有說明了就是說我們將來會是P2P的一個統籌我們會整合各個部會一起對這個P2P的業者所以現在誰是主管機關目前還是按照一般經濟部登記了那怎麼會我們因為他的沒關係我下一次會去問經濟部部長希望新的經濟部部長會擔起來說主管機關是我沒有錯"},{"start":13551.623,"end":13571.894,"text":"為什麼我特別作曲這個案子?因為這個案子現在像滾雪球一樣越來越大囉!越來越大囉!好!這個書信科技在他停止出金所謂停止出金就是說我現在沒錢啦!我沒有錢可以還你們啦!來!我們來看一下他的聲明來來來!這個聲明局長你有看過嗎?"},{"start":13578.516,"end":13599.125,"text":"還是因為不是你們主管所以連聲明都沒看過報告委員他是被起訴了之後我們才有接到申訴的案件對 所以我問你他最新的聲明停止出清就是停止還錢以後的聲明你有看過嗎有 我從報紙上有看到你要看人家的聲明就到人家網站上去看嘛來我唸給你聽喔"},{"start":13601.937,"end":13628.269,"text":"他說什麼他說齁黃天牧近期在面對質詢的時候說網路事業借貸指導原則沒有法律效力不遵守也不會有罰則這個黃天牧說的我知道因為是我問他的所以那個自律規範有什麼用有法律效力嗎可以當請求權基礎嗎他說沒有辦法但你看這個業者他接下來講什麼話他說"},{"start":13629.52,"end":13652.33,"text":"接下來我本來跟新加坡有合作連新加坡都不跟我們合作為什麼不跟我們合作來看一下新加坡的金管局對當地金融服務更是用完善的法規做高度的監理對於類似的平台早有相關的法規以及對應的牌照在考慮過相關法律風險以後新加坡的合作方決定終止跟我們合作"},{"start":13654.051,"end":13671.1,"text":"這個是藉口還是真正的理由可以被檢驗但重要的事情是什麼但重要的事情是他直接在說我們政府人家是有完整的法規有監理有牌照我們什麼什麼都沒有什麼都沒有"},{"start":13674.929,"end":13687.991,"text":"主委我只請你回去思考一個問題跟銀行局的同仁思考一個問題金管會的立場未來是不是繼續用自律規範在您的任內喔因為接下來發生的全部都是你的鍋了"},{"start":13689.045,"end":13714.355,"text":"回去想清楚要繼續用自律規範還是要像其他的國家一樣建立好監理央行把各國的監理系統監理的方式都幫你們金管會做好功課了全部都整理出來了現在大家只在等金管會一個政策立場是要繼續自律規範不關我們的事還是要有一個清楚的立場出來主委這樣可以嗎"},{"start":13716.067,"end":13716.667,"text":"主席"},{"start":13749.439,"end":13759.584,"text":"主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府監管長官員,會長工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請財政部莊部長和金管會彭主委。有請莊部長,彭主委。委員好。部長好,主委好。根據我們剛通過的藐視國會法,如果質詢超過,你們答詢超過我們詢問的範圍,主席要制止,甚至要罰款,是不是這樣?"},{"start":13777.338,"end":13795.715,"text":"你們知道啦當然主席根據我們的議事規則如果詢問的人也超出範圍好像主席要制止啊來那個我還是跟我們的ESG有關第一攤電視臺灣公建的解方促減碳要綠色融資配套我來看一下這是過去呢因為那時候兩位部長跟主委都還沒商量請看下一頁"},{"start":13796.155,"end":13819.319,"text":"我當時呢在財委會質詢過當時的財政部長跟當時金融團體主委就透過金融機構協力引資來落實ESG我以大潮州、屏東大潮州的人工湖其實在場的很多工股、行庫的副總有去過可能現在都當總經理了齁那麼就是透過優惠貸款我們可以讓政府呢去投資去興建這樣的一個綠色公共建設那麼促商的過程當中也可以讓民間建設來參與請問主委跟部長都認同這樣做法嗎"},{"start":13822.942,"end":13849.414,"text":"認同好認同那我們看那ESG呢我基本上我就不再介紹了這裡面能源管理跟溫室氣體排放是現在的大宗往下看那麼現在呢我們的台灣的競爭對手的工業減碳的措施跟投資其實你看到在台灣啊政府有投入但是呢在建廠補助跟綠色貸款的部分目前相較於日本跟新加坡我們是沒有的好那接下來我們往下看那麼氣候變遷的因應執法呢碳費三執法呢它有一個重點"},{"start":13850.194,"end":13874.904,"text":"他說我們碳費是經濟誘因不是財政工具所以碳費以成本來促進企業碳減量但是有沒有提供財政方面的誘因來減輕事業的負擔呢部長你覺得有沒有政府目前有沒有提供目前目前財政的誘因啊我直接告訴你我是看不出有啦那主委你覺得我們有政府提供相關的誘因嗎"},{"start":13876.934,"end":13897.748,"text":"也還沒有啦好往下看那至於其他國家呢歐盟、CBAN還有美國的清潔競爭法案基本上都是針對的基礎工業原料那麼基本上呢他就透過一個CBAN的憑證科探關稅美國也差不多如此歐盟已經2026號實施了美國還在進行中那我們看到淨零碳排跟企業發展呢台灣目前"},{"start":13899.289,"end":13927.827,"text":"包括中國、日本、韓國、新加坡的貿易對手70個國家已經實施了探定價那我再強調一次探定價不只是為了淨零碳排在臺灣更有我國臺灣出口產品競爭力的差別是不是部長同意、主委同意?是的好 那我們往下繼續看那美國的部分呢在歐盟的CBAN大概就這樣我就不再贅述那碳執法、碳費執法三個的部分呢已經上路了那碳費呢有在環境部公報那往下看那美國的事情呢有一個很重要的關鍵了"},{"start":13929.168,"end":13949.861,"text":"電力使用．在生產的時候使用的電力的排碳有被納入計算．好再往下看．電力來了．最近國安會主委不斷地問說．標題寫不排斥重啓核能有三原則．第一臺灣的用電供電夠不夠．第二最關鍵的低碳電夠不夠．然後才是2050淨零碳排的目標．請問一下部長你知道什麼是低碳電嗎．"},{"start":13952.085,"end":13965.315,"text":"應該就是那個排碳算是要比較低的主委也是了解低碳一般我們都把它直接稱為綠電我往下看因為綠電有爭議目前核能算不算核電算不算綠電部長你的看法呢"},{"start":13966.226,"end":13985.342,"text":"核電算不算綠電?那我就了解因為在國外的時候對於這個碳排放的一個足跡裡面它會有一個R1-100但是核電裡面它並沒有納入R1不承認核電那請教主委彭主委那可是歐盟卻將核電有條件的視為綠電請問你知道什麼是有條件的綠電嗎?"},{"start":13986.755,"end":14009.946,"text":"我知道綠電有條件我沒有去研究他條件是什麼OK好那我這邊就跟大家做分享其實就是核廢的最終處置場必須跟人類的生活圈永遠隔離目前最接近的只有芬蘭之前的童子賢董事長一直在提芬蘭的OL3不是OL特別便宜OL3特別便宜或OL3的沒有核廢掉純粹是因為他在芬蘭才有可能核電被採用往下看"},{"start":14010.726,"end":14034.444,"text":"所以如果綠電的需求持續增加綠電夠嗎?那麼這裡面提到了說未來AI會計算力的需求會增加三成以上用電需求但是一千度的用綠電只有一度是中小企業搶到請問部長或主委目前高科技產業或者中小企業綠電是不夠那未來的需求我們繼續成長綠電你覺得趕得上產業的需求嗎?"},{"start":14038.905,"end":14062.142,"text":"你覺得目前就你們所知臺灣的綠電增加?綠電這個部分我們其實這幾年都非常的一直努力在做那要看如果照國發會主委說AI的發展他事實上用電量可能會更大那就要看綠電能不能跟得上這樣的一個成長速度好 那麼主委呢你覺得呢臺灣目前要解決用電問題核心關鍵綠電那綠電的成長趕得上我們的需求嗎?"},{"start":14063.004,"end":14086.492,"text":"我同意剛剛部長的意見好 很好 那我們現在看來 簡單講 財政人員憑證這幾年2017年到2022年已經發出了350多萬張其中指數性的成長 證明過去在風光發電的部分提供了這些綠電憑證成長的基礎所以結論 臺灣的用電需求 終究要靠綠電用低碳的電力來解決但是 有一個問題來了 就是今天跟ESG有關的下一頁"},{"start":14087.432,"end":14107.681,"text":"就說為什麼中小企業買不到綠電因為所有的財政人員業者他在發電設備的投資上要銀行去做貸款銀行團要求這個發電業者呢販售對象他賣電給誰這個對象要有信用平等那必須符合兩項之一一個是中華信憑的評定那麼3B或者是A"},{"start":14108.268,"end":14109.149,"text":"臺灣的中小企業符合這個標準嗎?我這樣講你們有理解嗎?"},{"start":14122.714,"end":14139.143,"text":"為什麼我說綠色融資這麼重要?現在在場的工股行鋪這些銀行他們會貸款給誰?給這些再生能源的發電業者但是發電業者他的客戶他賣這個綠電給誰?必須這個客戶本身年用電用度於5億度啊"},{"start":14140.524,"end":14167.001,"text":"所以當然中小企業搶不到綠電所以這就是我今天說的綠色融資的必要部長你回去可以請你們的財政部所屬銀行好好的評估一下有沒有辦法去解套不然的話未來這些投資的風機他未來的客戶他不會賣給小客戶啊他說直接賣給台積電的大客戶因為這樣才能取得銀行的融資可不可以要求你們的公股行戶做這個評估好那主委呢覺得有什麼方法可以解套"},{"start":14168.544,"end":14172.117,"text":"我們也來評估一下我們現在一般的銀行在這邊有沒有這樣的規定"},{"start":14173.649,"end":14201.788,"text":"好 最後的結論主席站起來請金管會跟財政部你研議未來對於企業生產設備的減碳措施提供綠色融資的鼓勵不管是補貼利息、政府的擔保或者減碳設備的免稅優惠請問這個部分大部分是財政部財政部您在這個相關的財務的持全部分可不可以給本席跟本委員一個研究的一個評估報告我們來研議是那大概可以多久我要跟國發會主委講一下大概多久可以"},{"start":14202.468,"end":14218.637,"text":"委員我們是不是兩個月可以好兩個月接受那就謝謝那麼金管理如果能夠配合的話也請金管理提供一個指引好不好好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝莊嘉斌委員質詢接著我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接著我們請林楚瑩委員質詢"},{"start":14231.107,"end":14233.811,"text":"主席有請彭主委跟莊部長"},{"start":14241.994,"end":14260.37,"text":"主委你好辛苦了我知道您是從學者轉任所以說今天我想提的這個題目的部分恐怕是要您也以過去在學界的立場來回應我5月8號的時候教育文化委員會曾經辦了一個公聽會那就是有關於現在"},{"start":14261.371,"end":14286.923,"text":"立法委員們都希望推動所謂的青年基本法那麼在這樣一場公聽會當中其實是沒有特別邀請財政包括財政部或是金管會來出席但是我覺得非常可惜我接下來所提的版本會把青年基本法加入有關於如何來提升我們青年朋友的普惠金融的這種金融素養"},{"start":14287.543,"end":14301.514,"text":"因為根據這個金融研訓院所做的這個報告我們會發現20到29歲的年輕人是最無法抵抗所謂金融風險的一個世代剛剛前面的委員都在提到包括相關的比如"},{"start":14302.935,"end":14316.647,"text":"金融陷阱又或者是相關的這個未來對於自己的施壓規劃或是金融詐騙甚至於我們誤觸這種所謂的在這個投資的投資陷阱其實都是跟我們無法抵擋金融風險"},{"start":14318.43,"end":14319.09,"text":"金管會當然支持"},{"start":14343.717,"end":14369.465,"text":"我們都知道提升這個國民的金融素養過去對金管會來說是非常重要的一個部分不然不會有像金融研訓院等等但是金融生活的普查我們會發現其實不只是年輕人包括一般的民眾居然高達78.1%他們的金融素質是屬於低或極低的那麼我們都知道我們一直在推所謂的ESG"},{"start":14370.425,"end":14384.101,"text":"可是本席從過去四年在財委會我常常質疑我們的這個金融永續的報告都留於作文比賽然後大家只在乎一不是一不重要但是留於形式就會變成什麼"},{"start":14385.602,"end":14410.631,"text":"撿垃圾、辦園遊會、吃素我認為大家對一的概念已經已經到一定的水準之上但是對於金融生活的這個金融素養的提升我想問的是不論是主委或是莊部長莊部長有請我們可不可以在金融永續的評鑑指標上面來做一些進步比如說金融業怎麼樣提升國民的金融素養"},{"start":14411.331,"end":14426.097,"text":"公股行戶怎麼帶頭來做金融扎根我們在ESG我們知道這個分分秒秒不論是上市櫃公司或是金融產業都希望做一個提高分數這每加一分都非常的不容易所以"},{"start":14426.597,"end":14448.349,"text":"我想請問部長：莊部長跟彭主委有沒有可能在我們金融評鑑上面多加入把S2的普惠金融的實踐能夠具體化比如說是向下扎根或者是金融從業人員當中你有辦法去做一些協助呢我先請這個彭主委再請莊部長來回應"},{"start":14449.77,"end":14477.406,"text":"我想金管會過去對這個金融普及是做了非常非常多當然還有待努力啦我想這部分我們可以來研究啊好部長呢是謝謝委員齁那其實金管會他在去年底已經有發布一個金融知識普及及工作的第7期推動計畫是113年到115年那這個部分呢就是要擴大金融機構去參與金融教育那這要走入社區走入校園"},{"start":14478.386,"end":14497.533,"text":"讓我們的學生也好讓我們一般的民眾都能夠有一個金融的知識、常識以及涵養那這個公股金融事業也都配合這樣的一個計畫都無常的派員去當總指教師提供一些正確的金融知識我想這個部分我們的公股金融事業一直在做然後也是散盡一個企業的社會責任"},{"start":14499.634,"end":14512.976,"text":"好 所以我想要問主委我知道你們一定都會立委都質詢了也都會正面肯定我就問 主委金融永續金融評鑑的這個評鑑指標你知道是哪些單位來訂定出來的嗎"},{"start":14517.343,"end":14538.978,"text":"好,我來告訴你好了,金融研訓院、保發中心、政經會會有一個出版,然後初步的草稿,然後呢再由金管會的代表跟外部的學者來做評比。我只想問,那像這種永續金融的評鑑的指標有沒有可能去重新的去做一些定義或增加,讓"},{"start":14540.439,"end":14568.572,"text":"普惠金融或是金融素質的提升給予他們一個指標讓他們有一個方向因為你只要目標設定正確這個部分就可以達到本席提出來這個其實我是認為有現在這麼多的金融陷阱金融詐騙又或者是對於投資理財的金融小白的不了解就是因為我們的金融的有關於素質的提升不夠所以我想問主委有沒有可能在"},{"start":14568.712,"end":14571.193,"text":"在永續金融評鑑當中做一些修正"},{"start":14583.029,"end":14602.275,"text":"好因為每一年每一年都有評鑑那麼剛剛我也讓您知道了其實這幾個單位當中金管會都是上級的指導機關所以我希望金管會跟財政部公股行庫可以如何來推動有關於金融素質的提升可以做哪些協助是不是可以在"},{"start":14603.295,"end":14618.72,"text":"各個分行或者是有什麼樣的方式可以處理我希望有一份報告那麼有關於金融素質的提升包括永續金融評鑑的指標怎麼樣做精進我也希望金管會在了解之後可以來給我一份報告跟交給我們財政委員會可以嗎"},{"start":14620.149,"end":14621.091,"text":"謝謝林竹英委員的質詢接下來我們請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":14655.563,"end":14655.724,"text":"張化銀行"},{"start":14676.702,"end":14695.414,"text":"先請問邱董這個財政部所屬六家的我們公股銀行裡面公司治理排名第一的大概是第一金控你是如何做到的你有發表一下你有什麼心得想跟大家分享嗎"},{"start":14698.034,"end":14710.26,"text":"報告主席我想這些公司治理能夠得到這麼好的一個成績那應該是我們同仁平時對於公司治理的一個目標跟他的一個做法都落實來執行"},{"start":14713.035,"end":14739.044,"text":"那在董事會的部分呢 那我們也會把我們對公司治理的一個方向呢 要定期向董事會報告這個我可以肯定 那的確在您的這個治理之下 我想各項部長是貸前或者貸後啊 那個管理都還不錯所以才會明天前茅 那張化銀行那個雲林董事長 您是如何辦到的"},{"start":14740.903,"end":14758.053,"text":"謝謝委員的肯定那其實我們彰化銀行對整個公司治理面是非常非常的重視那在董事會下面我們也設了這個永續發展委員會所以所有跟公司治理相關的一些事項我們也會在永續發展委員會當中邀集所有的"},{"start":14758.513,"end":14787.996,"text":"因為這個委員會的召開是我們行內先召開所以所有的各層級的總行內各層級的部署的主管都要來參加所以公司治理不是只有說我們總務處或秘書處來做這些事情而已而是所有的部署裡面他們要貫徹一下我們對這個問題的一個重視所以是全行都能夠動員那執行的成果我們也會提交到董事會來讓董事會董事的成員、所有的董事們都可以知道那我們大概做了些什麼"},{"start":14788.396,"end":14790.577,"text":"從這比喻上好像女性的董事長好像比較傑出喔"},{"start":14819.522,"end":14843.937,"text":"純粹巧合我想六位董事長都非常傑出都是公司治理的搶手那我問一下這個復改會上一次召開15年前有沒有可能在最近這個整體的財經結構、人口結構、社會經濟結構有那麼大的轉變之那租稅制度是不是要與時即進做一些調整15年都沒開"},{"start":14845.655,"end":14870.766,"text":"有必要嗎?有必要在針對整體的社會結構的改變來召開副改會?那個部長您有看法嗎?是,對於稅制的一個變革我們事實上都是持續的在滾動檢討在107年做了一個大幅的所得稅制優化之後那這幾年間也都有做一些所以你這樣就做了?比如像人口結構的變化也有比如說像我們對於學前幼兒特別扣除額"},{"start":14871.479,"end":14873.1,"text":"有請金管會彭主委有請彭主委"},{"start":14900.129,"end":14919.008,"text":"主委關於油資的氾濫臺灣資金很多包括售行業包括海外回來的我們超額儲蓄也非常高投資相對是保守這種狀況對油資的管理金管會有沒有比較具體的作法"},{"start":14920.034,"end":14936.284,"text":"是,現在有關那個保險業的投資他們都根據保險法146條的相關的規定來辦理啦因為確實我們保險業過去的資金面臨到很多限制嘛就是國內的投資不足啦他只能投資國外,國外有很多這個匯損的影響對不對對"},{"start":14939.692,"end":14962.49,"text":"主要是國內的可投資標的比較少那你們目標國內的投資率會達到什麼樣的水平現在說長期都低於百分之三十那您的目標國內投資率要提高到多少這個現在的部分我們對這個數字我們當然希望針對主要是比如說引導保險資金能夠回到比如說台灣比較需要的工件"},{"start":14963.491,"end":14978.569,"text":"還有像比如說真的來支持我們的基礎建設這我們來做那至於說其實現在保險公司投資台股啊其實這樣是有投資一定的比例要導入基礎建設才是這個最重要的然後基礎建設不能靠國家的這個國家年度預算才兩兆對不對對"},{"start":14980.266,"end":14998.681,"text":"兩照你必須要靠國內這個民間的資金來參與這個國內的基建確實你要有配套你要有引導你要有誘因另外這個證交所櫃買跟騎交所跟吉寶目前各自為證未來整合的可能性跟時針表您的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":15002.084,"end":15024.36,"text":"主委那個抱歉剛才他傳遞資料不好意思我說明資料都有啦我的證交所、櫃買、齊交所、吉保中心目前是各自為證嘛那未來20年前就談那個整合整合有它的必要性也有它的這個競爭力的優勢嘛那你呢你單位主委你的時程規劃是怎麼樣?您的具體做法是如何?"},{"start":15024.76,"end":15046.394,"text":"這個其實我們有討論過,主要是我們有看各國這個比如交易所的整併其實啊,它並不是說都是好的啦有沒有必要性,就針對台灣的狀況其實我們現在初步的評估現在的運作應該是可以維持現在的做法啦那20年前就有很多學者倡議啊,您當也是學者出身,您個人看法呢?"},{"start":15047.113,"end":15073.379,"text":"我個人對這個是沒有過去比較少討論這件事情不過我們內部有討論因為主要是我們現在交易所有很多的那個特殊比如說他們的組織型態都不同要做整合其實上也是有它實質上的困難那你現在要成立這個金融發展局或金融發展處對不對發展重於監理或者說發展跟金融發展跟金融監理要平衡對不對是"},{"start":15074.127,"end":15100.981,"text":"那你這個金融發展局金融發展處的目前的時程規劃現在主要是這樣因為我們受限於整體中央部會的這樣的組織設計上次也有委員說能夠未來若有機會的話我們朝向成立一個部的這個方向來研議那否則我們現在就受限於這樣要成立一個局現在是有實質的困難所以我可以這樣結論就是說成立這個局有困難這是你的想法但是做不到是不是"},{"start":15101.781,"end":15107.847,"text":"現在還需要有共識啦這一塊那至於說比如金管會內呢成立一個專責的比如說我們的金融發展與科技創新處的話這個部分我們在研議中"},{"start":15119.86,"end":15120.2,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15145.114,"end":15148.837,"text":"主席、各位官員、各位委員大家午安是不是有請金管會主委跟財政部莊部長有請彭主委、莊部長"},{"start":15171.328,"end":15199.982,"text":"委員好好 謝謝主委跟部長那我先請教部長問題今天我們在討論的是這個ESG大家非常關心的這個希望企業這個永續發展節能減碳那也要跟主委請議的問題就是說台灣現在過去已經推動了很久的這個電子發票請問您知道說推動電子發票的主要的目的在哪裡嗎電子發票主要我們是希望無紙化"},{"start":15200.509,"end":15221.861,"text":"好 第一個無紙化 第二個資料可以 我們更希望是雲端發票 也就是把發票存在載具裡面那更徹底的無紙化 那然後讓消費者不需要拿到紙本 然後讓商家其實他的資料也都可以做數位化的 不管在對比的事情好 謝謝部長 解釋得非常清楚那你請問一下 那現在電子發票它的儲存的地方是在哪裡"},{"start":15222.842,"end":15245.491,"text":"電子發票目前儲存我們如果用雲端的話就儲存在雲端沒錯部長非常專業沒有被我拷倒無紙化就是傳送在雲端所以我們手上拿到的發票叫電子發票證明簾就是說它是證明有這張電子發票的一個東西那我先給部長看一下這是我們傳統的這個收銀機的發票原本就是希望把這個收銀機的發票讓它可以無紙化可是要跟部長報告"},{"start":15246.631,"end":15274.13,"text":"這是現在一般民眾會拿到你所謂的電子發票無紙化會拿到這麼長的一條的發票請問部長這是發生了什麼事情直接跟部長分享就是財政部沒有再好好的去跟這個電子發票業者去討論明明無紙化的部分只要前面這一個把這個電子發票證明欄這一列給列出來可是你們沒有跟電子發票系統去做商討"},{"start":15274.89,"end":15301.942,"text":"把所有的交易明細甚至計算公式甚至下面還有非常多的這個銷貨資料以及促銷的東西全部都在電子發票的情況上一次印出來請問這是部長你想要推電子發票的一個目的嗎委員電子發票如果它有筒邊如果打筒邊我知道會有明細出來那另外有一大串是一些折價券、廣告不用打筒邊也會出來啦"},{"start":15303.863,"end":15308.37,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個應該是長期來問你去買東西也會發現那我是請教部長你是不是可以來鼓勵企業只要在做評證的時候只要印這個證明連出來以後底下充充都不要"},{"start":15321.027,"end":15350.078,"text":"那可是他又在宣導他在宣導的時候有辦法宣導嗎?不,他不,我覺得商家他為了做廣告或者是做兌換所以他就那你推的電子發票就是變成無紙化變成這樣我們的目的不是要這樣我們的目的是發票能夠無紙化好,那你可不可以可不可以答應本席你來努力來推動把這樣的問題讓政府來鼓勵企業只要印出這個電子發票證明證明連就好了其他不鼓勵印出"},{"start":15350.914,"end":15364.811,"text":"不鼓勵可以但是你不能禁止他因為這是他商家的我沒有說要禁止我說不鼓勵好不好尤其從上市櫃公司期的ESG應該就是要節能減碳因為這麼長的發票哪裡來的節能減碳是是是這第一點第二點我要請教金管會謝謝部長希望一起來協調"},{"start":15368.635,"end":15391.101,"text":"請教金管會的主委我看到金管會的主委今天的這個專題報告裡面在第7月第3他寫說你們要引導金融機構落實放貸及貸後的管理工作尤其針對114年起實施放款對象包含綠電及再生能源即是113年3月底放款餘額到達2.8億"},{"start":15393.854,"end":15414.293,"text":"教育111年的2.8兆教育110年底的2.45兆高達3500億請教主委這是你們的德政可是本席要這邊跟你們分享的是其實你知不知道現在目前我們的綠電公司代理已經幾家上市櫃了"},{"start":15415.936,"end":15417.937,"text":"這個容許我們請同仁查一下再跟委員報告"},{"start":15435.578,"end":15449.104,"text":"這些公司都已經上市櫃了都已經賺那麼多錢了你還要再繼續補貼而且還把這當成是你的德政所以我是不是請教主委可以分級一下上市公司已經賺了那麼多錢了你還要再補貼他多少的利息這樣公平嗎"},{"start":15450.596,"end":15477.722,"text":"對我們來瞭解一下好不好這個部分一定要瞭解第二點我對非常的不能理解的他說規範銀行辦理企業授信審核時要審酌借款或是否善盡環境保護企業誠信以及社會責任請問現在綠電的公司部分主推太陽能板以及風力發電請問太陽能板到期了以後他的這個太陽能板如何回收如何做到環境保護"},{"start":15480.384,"end":15497.157,"text":"就我了解已經有一批的太陽能板已經到齊了他如果做到環境保護以及這些綠電公司過去捐贈政治現金給民進黨的政治人物我沒有說不行可是他如何做這就是你們說的聖誕正會責任要給他低利率的原因嗎"},{"start":15498.919,"end":15522.057,"text":"這可不可以會後我再提供完整資訊給委員所以這個本席非常不能接受不能這樣子去做不好意思主席我最後再借用一分鐘全民現在擔心台電破產的有可能會破產的問題我也在這個經濟部跟他講台電有一個帳上有個合適的資產2800億已經沒有經濟效益的應該要打為損失可是他沒有辦法提供出"},{"start":15526.66,"end":15536.004,"text":"這個大家所謂所需要的為了他的產值或是處理的成本我希望這邊金管會跟財政部來協助那我要來問一個是大家比較關心的抱歉最後一個問題抱歉"},{"start":15537.489,"end":15557.341,"text":"我聽說啦這個台電非常辛苦為了要讓台灣的電力是穩定的有打電話拜託大型企業上市會公司盡量溝通盡量少用電這樣子請問今晚會的主委你有去統計去了解這樣會不會對我們的大型企業產生什麼樣的問題請回答"},{"start":15564.619,"end":15577.435,"text":"這已經不是已經是很久的新聞有沒有辦法回答最後一個問題這影響到上次公司生意的問題結果你們完全不了解那我請問一下有些企業可以拒絕有些企業不能拒絕這需不需要發重訊"},{"start":15581.363,"end":15594.913,"text":"我們現在還沒有接受到這樣的訊息沒有了解嘛可是新聞上都已經跑出來了嘛所以拜託主委部長我們一起來努力很多事情大家一起來努力好不好謝謝謝謝張志倫委員質詢接著鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員不在接著我們請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":15610.279,"end":15621.774,"text":"今天請楊委員質詢謝謝主席本席想邀請部長邀請莊部長"},{"start":15625.478,"end":15625.918,"text":"金管會主委"},{"start":15656.118,"end":15657.719,"text":"金管會對於T加1的做法,你們是不是會樂觀其成?"},{"start":15671.721,"end":15693.233,"text":"有關這個確實我們有做研議那詳細的部分我們也把一些利弊得失都做一些分析所以我們現在請證交所比如說這個部分我們會從幾個面向再討論我們已經做完這個研究我們會再來評估到底要不要採用也要觀察他們實際的那個績效我們再來決定要不要跟進這樣"},{"start":15694.215,"end":15700.579,"text":"現在實施的成效再來評估要不要用預估大概什麼時候會有一個初步方向這個目前我們還沒有定啦但是我們就說好的制度我們會盡快的來看看怎麼樣來做對"},{"start":15722.182,"end":15722.282,"text":"觀察中"},{"start":15735.063,"end":15735.523,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":15756.315,"end":15766.415,"text":"因為現在零股買會比較貴所以小資族上班族他們有這個聲音一樣買整股比較便宜我零股比較貴其他國家沒有這樣子那這個會不會改變"},{"start":15768.556,"end":15797.361,"text":"領股我們現在在針對它交易的時間我們有做一些改進啦那至於說交易的成本還有就是我們我們可以來進行國際資料的比對啦可以專案去討論嘛可以可以好不好可以專案去討論可以因為小資族有這個聲音出來我們就可以納一個專案來討論到底可不可以通通都一視同仁不要領股又比較貴因為買領股的當然是小資族嘛那我們還是要支持小資族啊"},{"start":15797.941,"end":15798.561,"text":"接下來就是我們的聯合信用卡中心的統計"},{"start":15826.539,"end":15842.411,"text":"我們看到去年被詐騙的32.4億你要怎麼樣強化我們整個信用卡風險的一個管理同時我們也知道你現在你認為說我們現在看到銀行公會檢討財政部長在這邊我們看到說他們檢討信用卡被詐騙的發掘最多利用快速移轉"},{"start":15853.546,"end":15864.172,"text":"變現金高的以及做倒刷交易的主要有三大類遊戲點數、錢包儲值、電子禮券在這樣情況之下營養公會更嚴厲出方案就是說3000塊使用會議轉24小時之後才能夠生效"},{"start":15872.856,"end":15873.016,"text":"全力圍堵"},{"start":15902.722,"end":15928.695,"text":"實踐點"},{"start":15928.991,"end":15955.386,"text":"我們可不可以請局長跟我們說明一下好 告訴我時間點好不好你們 討論幫委員 因為這幾天應該就會再開會了開完會之後我想就是一個月可以給社會大眾說繼續開 趕快開那最後一個議題再給我一分鐘好不好不好意思主委 主席部長 詐騙的管道各個部門都頭腦脹了越打越詐"},{"start":15956.667,"end":15979.276,"text":"被詐的數額越來越多所以本席要再請教民眾跨境網購的這個問題上次本席也請問了所以部長因為我們國人常常跨境購物那關稅署那要怎麼樣去落實宣導跟保障國人的權利因為民眾在進口貨物放行的隔天起6個月內填具申請切結書"},{"start":15980.416,"end":15991.148,"text":"哇那這樣子會影響有一些影響那就怎麼辦呢我們要怎麼樣怎麼樣可以去防堵去落實請教部長跟關稅署也在這邊就是說進口的貨物因為我們消費者是受到詐騙的"},{"start":15995.413,"end":15996.313,"text":"要大肆宣導27號今天29號有幾個人知道"},{"start":16020.361,"end":16034.481,"text":"上一次本席詢問的時候要求你們必須務實去做我也歡喜你們在27號有所做調整那我們還是滾動式檢討看了進行的結果怎麼樣保障民眾的權利好不好要宣傳"},{"start":16035.362,"end":16035.382,"text":"蔡議員質詢"},{"start":16069.14,"end":16074.063,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請金管會我們主委黃主委請主委主委今天我們主題是擴在說如何創造這些企業的ESG那也最近大概六月是不是就要開始要開增所謂的碳費"},{"start":16101.173,"end":16119.493,"text":"這個是環境部他們在研議的所以我現在要扣的議題就是說因為現在環境部也審核過了有六項自然碳匯的一個方法學這中間有包括經營森林或是竹林或是土地利用的管理或者是生物碳、紅樹林、海藻"},{"start":16120.322,"end":16136.714,"text":"那事實上這樣的一些方法學勒也是變得說未來因為要做到了所謂的淨零碳排然後要做到了讓企業去用了這樣的一個碳匯那也可以創造ESG"},{"start":16138.335,"end":16164.853,"text":"對 那我想要請教金管會的就是說未來我們金管會會不會有怎樣的政策輔導企業或者是鼓勵企業去從事剛剛環境部我剛剛講的審核過六項自然碳會的一個方法學就是說這個方法學勒有沒有可能由企業然後領頭然後來開始在地方然後來從事這樣的這樣的一些經營"},{"start":16166.347,"end":16194.308,"text":"剛剛我已經報告就是說我們在最近在推的永續金融裡面我們會去鼓勵我們的金融業針對這些未來對ESG或是對這個減碳有幫助的這些的產業進行一些比較有利的投融資或是一些放款的這樣的一個活動我想主要是透過這樣的方式透過那個金融業的這個資金以及義和的能力來"},{"start":16195.929,"end":16223.16,"text":"來協助這些的轉型金融業當然說他們資金是說去做一些待放對對對於從事這個我們對可是事實上我們也更期待說除了金融業之外還有很多事實上金管會管的有很多上市公司上市櫃公司上市櫃公司他們也是需要他們去創造他們的ESG那這個ESG有沒有辦法進一步的讓企業去跟地方的農業合作"},{"start":16223.76,"end":16224.761,"text":"對,我們多管齊下啦剛剛也有報告我們未來要發展成ESG的評鑑"},{"start":16242.733,"end":16258.153,"text":"這是針對所有上市貴公司那我們這個話其實也可以考慮把這一項納入我們評鑑的指標好 那我們也是期待就是主委可以去好好的去推動因為我覺得像這樣的一些又省碳"},{"start":16258.703,"end":16281.577,"text":"又節能審探而且他還可以創造地方有新的一個經濟的一個平台那甚至很多農民都可以投入然後跟企業有更深層的合作我覺得這個是主委咱金管會也可以扮演這樣的一個角色這是我們來努力第二個我想要跟主委聊一下就是針對現在詐騙的一些狀況事實上好多人都一直在針對這些詐騙集團"},{"start":16284.859,"end":16307.233,"text":"也包括說金融業要怎麼做甚至現在一個詐騙他的項目越來越多他有可能是假投資投資股票就後來發現是假的甚至現在有很多用虛擬貨幣他們用什麼泰達幣說泰達幣是對照美元所以他鼓勵大家去投資泰達幣結果他進入去了結果他去購買泰達幣卻是一個假的"},{"start":16311.335,"end":16339.533,"text":"由詐騙集團自己所創設的一個虛擬貨幣的交易平台那個交易平台完全是假的所以你錢進去你就匯不出來了所以好多人跟我陳情遇到這樣的狀況可是他這一個一旦他去警察局報案了哇這一個網站被揪出來然後這個網站他是架構在第三國所以後來沒辦法再清查然後裡面的錢又被頂光光了對這個被害者來說他投訴無門"},{"start":16340.954,"end":16363.891,"text":"他也沒有不知道怎麼去救濟的因為人也抓不到比較多抓到的那些車手抓到那些提供賬戶者提供賬戶者如果他又沒有財產的話他也沒辦法去追償回來所以問題好多啦所以打詐這件事情我想是很多部門都要投入那我現在只想跟金管會說一個點就好就是說對於虛擬貨幣的管理"},{"start":16368.52,"end":16372.8,"text":"這一個虛擬貨幣的管理到底會不會在金管會你們到底要不要把他納管"},{"start":16373.832,"end":16398.059,"text":"現在有關虛擬貨幣我們現階段已經在洗錢防治法裡面針對比如說那個眾所矚目的個人幣商我們要進行修法動作我想要送到這個立法院來那第二個的話你們只把它放在洗錢防治啊讓大家更期待的就是說就虛擬貨幣你還是要把它類似有點像是投資股票這樣的一個行為虛擬貨幣還是要有一個高度的一個監控啊"},{"start":16398.539,"end":16426.77,"text":"是不是我們正在逐步納管就是那前面有很多委員關切啦我們現在有未來有擬定專法的計畫好我覺得這個也是麻煩金管會啦因為我接到好多陳情然後我們都聽了都好無奈我們真的希望說好好的去做好我們打詐這一塊不要再有這麼多的被害者那受害者甚至很多是老年家他一輩子的積蓄就被詐騙掉了我還聽都很恐怖的好不好"},{"start":16427.571,"end":16430.552,"text":"請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者,從其所定。"},{"start":16450.859,"end":16455.949,"text":"本次會議議程已進行完畢．堂有不在場委員補題書面質詢．一併列入紀錄、刊登公報．並請議事人員協助處理。上會"},{"start":16487.168,"end":16487.729,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"}]}},{"id":"15965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15965","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc1dc129ce818bd32890a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be4f24a40d699ade6fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-28"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:59:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12510,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝秘書長那接下來我們請法務部徐次長報告"},{"start":2634.246,"end":2657.997,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天奉邀列席大院貴委員會就《鐵窗裡的少年如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網》代表本部列席報告並被質詢深感榮幸之就專案內容重點報告"},{"start":2659.458,"end":2683.125,"text":"報告如下一、為提升少年矯正學校學生之輔導處遇矯正署已經建立個案評估報告在學生入校後一個月內根據個人特性分析、教育及輔導需求提供個別適性輔導第二、引進學生三級輔導機制一級為廣泛普遍性的輔導"},{"start":2687.026,"end":2696.575,"text":"二級是結合個案需求提供適性輔導三級則是針對特殊學生強化各項協助並由教師與新輔人員組成教輔小組"},{"start":2700.919,"end":2722.479,"text":"每月定期召開會議,討論學生學習及適應狀況。第三,強化專業輔導人力。除定期舉辦研習或外部受訓課程,目前各校編制之輔導教師比為1比25,心理師及社公司人力比為1比23,"},{"start":2724.501,"end":2740.671,"text":"將於114年持續請增18名輔導人力與矯正學校令特教師之以1比21師生比為目標聘任。2.強化再犯預防透過持續強化輔導量能"},{"start":2742.672,"end":2763.628,"text":"1.以教育部108年課綱為架構安排學業,運用多元處域如計職訓練、家庭教育及生涯輔導規劃,降低出校後再度犯罪可能。2.落實社區轉銜,學生出校前結合教育部、衛福部及勞動部等單位,"},{"start":2764.168,"end":2780.773,"text":"召開轉弦會議．使學生出校後順利回歸校園、就業或至相關社福照護單位．獲得妥適保護。第四．促進社會復歸．學校輔導教師與社政單位、社公司會"},{"start":2782.353,"end":2795.389,"text":"共同持續追蹤少年出校後一年動向如意特殊情況將適時轉介至相關輔導單位避免少年因未有銜接保護單位而再度進入司法體系。5.結論"},{"start":2798.212,"end":2816.202,"text":"矯正學校自學校入校後提供適性之處遇措施必使有限資源效益最大化並與學生出校前媒合相關網絡單位資源及以協力方式執行出校轉銜並與學生出校後持續追蹤一年"},{"start":2819.344,"end":2841.322,"text":"必穩固學生復歸社區家庭之狀況本部將持續益助資源提升專業輔導人力強化跨部會的合作模式與各界全力協助司法少年回歸家庭與學校與完善社會安全之保護網以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教好 謝謝市長"},{"start":2846.753,"end":2869.102,"text":"其餘機關報告請參閱書面．機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2880.355,"end":2903.624,"text":"謝謝主席馬上有請司法院秘書長麻煩秘書長委員早安秘書長早我們延續昨天因為時間不夠沒有處理完的問題這件事情非常的重要因為牽涉到了審判的獨立跟法定法官原則的界限"},{"start":2904.71,"end":2920.699,"text":"之前曾經請教過秘書長行事訴訟法在陳審的個案當中我們有依照法律應該自行迴避也有當事人申請迴避的事由但沒有一種是上級的長官施壓迴避"},{"start":2922.213,"end":2934.061,"text":"那針對這個金融重犯中文字他炒作TDR遭重判十幾年的這個案子在過程當中我收到檢舉"},{"start":2935.866,"end":2963.851,"text":"這個中文字阿非常的囂張阿不僅去找立法委員幫他脫罪提個案式的修法甚至在個案當中還有法官上級的法官去施壓陳神的法官要他上千迴避這件事情我公開提出質詢以後高等法院當天喔當天喔"},{"start":2965.034,"end":2993.044,"text":"就發一個澄清新聞稿說純屬誤會我看完他們的新聞稿以後我老實講我是不知道我有哪裡誤會那接下來司法法制委員會在這邊也通過了臨時提案讓司法院回去做調查報告昨天我們討論到了說你們調查報告的結果出來我們先來看看被施壓的法官他是怎麼說的被施壓的法官說"},{"start":2994.768,"end":3012.203,"text":"紅庭長跟我說他跟李院長討論過了李院長指示我要上千自請迴避被施要的法官被指示要上千自請迴避然後被施要的法官說他感到錯愕"},{"start":3013.922,"end":3033.333,"text":"已經跟他的庭長表示這個案子當事人有申請迴避那申請迴避也被駁回了他抗告最高法院也被駁回確定了結果紅庭長還是跟他講你上個簽就對了秘書長可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":3035.578,"end":3040.78,"text":"我先等一下啦我們昨天就討論到這裡嘛是出於關心個人主觀的動機是什麼那是另外一回事嘛"},{"start":3065.56,"end":3076.811,"text":"我現在的問題是上級的法官可以要陳審的法官要求他自請迴避嗎?可以做這件事嗎?在法規上可以做這件事嗎?"},{"start":3078.342,"end":3097.754,"text":"因為昨天有向委員說明就是根據當時的台灣高等法院分案實施要點第10點第4款那麼這個是台灣高等法院法官會議就法官有應自行迴避事由之外"},{"start":3098.675,"end":3122.889,"text":"那麼其他可能有偏頗之餘的情形啊那麼事先以抽象規定得由院長酌情准許法官簽請回覓等一下喔秘書長你講到高等法院的分案要點我又是法律人了要把法條講清楚啊因為你剛剛對那個法條的描述"},{"start":3123.905,"end":3136.003,"text":"根本不正確為什麼我說不正確你說按照第10點第4款來我們來看一下第10點第4款法官與當事人申請迴避經裁定駁回後"},{"start":3137.426,"end":3159.487,"text":"自行簽請迴避均不予准許但情況特殊得由院長酌情准許請問一下第4條第4款是法官自行簽請還是上面可以要求他上簽這個根據我們本院綜合"},{"start":3160.68,"end":3189.67,"text":"中和這個判斷我現在在講的你剛剛援引第4點第4款嘛我們就依法論法先不要講你們事實認定的部分啦回來這個法條啊剛剛我就說了嘛上級的院長、行政廷長可以幹這件事嗎然後你提到了高等法院他們分案要點的第10點第4款嘛我把第10點第4款現在秀在PPT上給你看"},{"start":3190.711,"end":3206.502,"text":"我請教的問題是這個是由陳審的法官自行簽起還是上級法官要求上簽這個法規的規範內容是什麼請教秘書長這個根據本院就這個法規的解讀阿吼"},{"start":3207.483,"end":3208.764,"text":"沒有喔 你把前面的要件搞混了嘛"},{"start":3228.439,"end":3239.013,"text":"我再唸一次法關於當事人申請迴避經裁定駁回後自行簽請迴避均不予准許你有看到嗎"},{"start":3240.762,"end":3264.974,"text":"你要先看本文啊這個那我向委員說明就是本院的解讀齁是認為這個是事先以抽象規定齁得由院長酌情准許法官簽請對啊得由院長酌情准許的前提是什麼是不是法官自行簽請那本院的解讀就有向剛剛委員說明就我們在書面報告也是"},{"start":3266.254,"end":3268.838,"text":"現在這個條文院長要准許的前提是法官他要簽請"},{"start":3279.227,"end":3300.987,"text":"我現在的問題就來了他的前提不是要法官自行簽請嗎這個條文有授權院長可以指示提行政庭長去要求法官上簽嗎這麼簡單的法律問題你可以在這邊繞這麼久這個是本院在這個報告說明這個第二點裡面有說明就是就這個"},{"start":3303.303,"end":3330.363,"text":"這個臺灣高等法院分案實施要點這個第10點第4款這個規定我們有把它列出來那麼我們的解讀是認為這個是法官會議那麼這個就這個法官有因自行迴避事由之外那麼其他可能有偏頗之意的情形那麼事先以抽象規定得由院長酌情審洗法官遷請迴避對不起喔秘書長"},{"start":3332.605,"end":3359.67,"text":"我在這邊就真的要把你打斷了你一直念一樣的稿完全不願意面對我的問題來予以回答我連法規寫在上面白紙黑字寫得這麼清楚我一直問你第10點第4款是法官自行簽請上去還是院長可以要求他上簽連這麼關鍵而基本的問題你都不願意正面迴避喔"},{"start":3360.615,"end":3386.189,"text":"在這個個案當中我直接跟秘書長講你們為了一個個案扭曲整個法律的解釋這是為什麼我一直講這件事情知識體大不是只是關心這個個案為了一個個案司法院可以針對有關於第4點第4款做這樣扭曲的解釋"},{"start":3388.629,"end":3405.352,"text":"秘書長我無法同意沒有關係啊我們今天在這邊的詢答第10點第4款法規怎麼解釋的法規怎麼規定應該要怎麼解釋我今天在這邊提出的問題全國法官都可以公平"},{"start":3406.277,"end":3429.515,"text":"你所提出來的回答也必須要接受所有法官的檢驗我們的司法院如果對第10點第4款是這樣解釋的話對不起啊以後事情大條啦所有的院長、庭長大家都可以筆覆援引因為我們司法院的秘書長這樣告訴全國的法官啊"},{"start":3430.416,"end":3442.427,"text":"第10點第4款可以這樣解釋啊以後院長、行政廷長都可以下去關心啊告訴陳神的法官啊你是不是要上千字請迴避啊"},{"start":3444.5,"end":3461.533,"text":"秘書長我再跟你講一次齁針對您今天這樣的回答我沒有辦法同意當然每個人有不同的法律見解我的看法跟你的看法針對這件事情這個條款的解釋要接受全國法官的公平"},{"start":3462.692,"end":3489.222,"text":"連你們自己的調查報告都承認是要求他上簽了要求他上簽了從頭到尾就不是第10點第4款那個法官自己上簽自己上簽以後院長例外的准許他可以迴避我有說錯嗎秘書長因為向委員說明我們在這個第三點三之一、三之二裡面都有提到因為當時這個"},{"start":3499.5,"end":3514.323,"text":"這個在申請迴避的事由法院不是都裁定過了嗎最高法院都維持了不用迴避的見解阿現在是什麼現在是你們高等法院的院長跟行政庭長可以繞過最高法院的裁定喔"},{"start":3515.043,"end":3524.409,"text":"然後自己去創造了跟最高法院的裁定不一樣的法律見解然後去施壓陳審法官自請迴避可以這樣做嗎?"},{"start":3545.303,"end":3561.393,"text":"當事人如果不服要申請迴避的時候都可以列為法定事由嗎?都可以在申請狀寫嗎?最高法院都已經裁定駁回了所以我現在我在質疑的是當你們開了這扇門等於是說什麼?"},{"start":3562.293,"end":3579.535,"text":"高等法院的院長、行政庭庭長可以繞過最高法院繞過最高法院創造法律所沒有的事由去施壓層層法官自請迴避嚴重破壞了法定法官的原則涉及了審判核心事項"},{"start":3581.24,"end":3607.512,"text":"我有說錯嗎?向委員說明我們在這個第三點有說明齁就綜合起來那洪庭長跟李院長他是出於關心保護而建議啦所以我就說嘛以後大家都是關心啦以後不會有什麼施壓啦大家都是關心啦用關心兩個字就可以侵害法定法官原則就可以施壓基層的法官自請迴避喔我看不下去啊"},{"start":3608.598,"end":3637.689,"text":"你這樣的解釋大家可不可以接受我說過我講最後一次全國法官啊都會公平接下來地方民事強制執行事件收案情況我上次代秘書長講過看過了齁從2022年開始暴增到2023年的時候整個狀況已經不可收拾了我那個時候問司法院請問你們做了什麼請問你們做了什麼你們一直沒有給我正面的答覆"},{"start":3639.432,"end":3667.869,"text":"結果呢基層同仁我說過我收到民事執行處基層同仁的憤怒他們可能下棋沒有辦法上打所以我利用質詢的時間啊我跟秘書長報告從2022年年底到2023年年底整整一年的困境他們在講的困境是什麼就是這個圖就是這個圖從每個月新收到未結"},{"start":3669.44,"end":3689.979,"text":"快速的累積增加從2022到2023結果司法院視而不見到2024年2月才進行調查我第一次質詢你的時候我就請教司法院做了什麼我請教司法院做了什麼我從你們這邊得不到答案我從地方執行處的"},{"start":3691.821,"end":3702.782,"text":"同仁那邊直接得到答案這個不是我說的吼下情可能沒有辦法上達我幫他們反映然後呢來看一下他們的班表每天晚上加班"},{"start":3704.181,"end":3731.432,"text":"星期五加班到晚上10點禮拜六禮拜天再來這個是他們在你們的財情系統裡面輸入的時間這不是我偽造變造的這是你們司法院法院內部加班系統的電池紀錄2023年的時候是這樣來你看那個時間嘛2023年然後我還特別挑了1、2、3、4、5、6日"},{"start":3734.274,"end":3756.775,"text":"1、2、3、4、5、6日每天都加每天都加2023年是這樣我們再看一下2024年2024年一樣幾乎每天加班6日繼續來連著上班根本沒有假日來我請教一下秘書長現在在地方法院民事執行處"},{"start":3758.232,"end":3784.648,"text":"這一些民事執行處的同仁他們報加班時數的上限請教秘書長像委員說明都是我們司法院的同仁我們當然都是很關心然後這一段期間因為突然案件你到2024年才關心嘛這人家講的嘛這個一直都有在反映啦那我們民視廳也都有跟臺北地院的院長、廳長"},{"start":3786.994,"end":3790.655,"text":"我再請教一下秘書長執行處的同仁可以報加班時數的上限是多少?"},{"start":3815.134,"end":3842.944,"text":"我已經問第三次了因為委員假如有需要我們會再提供啦我們提示的答案我知道我現在在挑戰的是答案你知不知道因為我們當然會盡量設法來來如何來奇怪我在問具體的問題然後你全部在講形容詞主席再強我要尊重主席但我要拜託主席可以指示秘書長回答嗎主席我的問題有很刁鑽嗎加班時數上限是多少小時請問秘書長是多少"},{"start":3844.445,"end":3845.005,"text":"我最後跟秘書長講"},{"start":3873.988,"end":3886.289,"text":"你秘書長是總管所有的行政事務這一件事情喔你是執行出案件累積的問題我相信不同的召委你來這邊排專報大概最少兩次我絕對不會記錯"},{"start":3888.53,"end":3912.556,"text":"我今天如果第一次問你問題我問這樣子可能是我不對整個問題在司法法制委員會討論過幾次甚至還開了公聽會結果你作為司法院的秘書長我就在挑戰你知不知道基層同仁的心聲基層同仁的困境嘛來最後我只講一件事齁我只講一件事請秘書長你可不可以承諾"},{"start":3913.953,"end":3943.062,"text":"你花一個時間你說你們4月的時候不是增加了7個股嗎?對對嘛,好你們4月增加7個股我只拜託秘書長隨便找一天的時間花一個小時去臺北地院的民事執行處聽所有基層同仁的心聲加了這7個股以後對他們的幫助有多大?你找這些人力派遣公司的人去派你找這些人力派遣公司的人去真的"},{"start":3944.383,"end":3960.419,"text":"有辦法幫他們解決他們現在工作的困境嗎?你不用聽我說你願不願意花一個小時的時間去台北地院的民事執行處聽他們的心聲?這個我會去我會去會嗎?會會好 謝謝如果啦秘書長你要去的時候通知我一下我陪你去"},{"start":3962.239,"end":3964.481,"text":"這個相關的數據這加班的上線秘書長去問一下這個是一個很簡單的問題"},{"start":3985.057,"end":4013.548,"text":"全國的公務員、法官、檢察官加班有上限這是很基本的一件事情所以可能麻煩秘書長了解一下第二件事情他們的辛苦我不知道說司法院高層聽不聽得到但是我照三餐在聽以前的法官、檢察官同學在抱怨黃國昌剛剛講的這個東西我覺得不只他啦我大概也都聽到爆炸了啦"},{"start":4013.991,"end":4031.599,"text":"我也是感同身受啦但是跟秘書長報告一件事情我以前這些同學跟我講的都是說司法院永遠不管他們這些都把這些法官就丟給他們去死啦每個人都在抱怨這個然後他們說更悲哀的是要找一個檢方出身的人在幫他們講話"},{"start":4033.459,"end":4044.181,"text":"所以我覺得是不是說麻煩一下這個要當一件事情在處理我不想說是法官體系或警察官體系再有第二件"},{"start":4045.387,"end":4072.499,"text":"不幸的事發生好嗎?對,因為確實我們現在司法院、所屬法院這個緩忙血汗的部門確實都相當多秘書長,我上次已經跟秘書長還有蔡部長說一件事情問題在制度不是捕人啦捕人是長官騙部署的方式捕人是用國家的權去"},{"start":4074.184,"end":4075.445,"text":"麻煩你們這要當一件事情處理謝謝秘書長"},{"start":4103.749,"end":4104.189,"text":"麻煩秘書長、次長"},{"start":4124.551,"end":4149.776,"text":"秘書長、次長好剛剛其實包含黃國昌委員還有我們的召委吳宗憲委員都有提到有關於司法人力過重的問題然後怎麼樣從改善這個人力結構還有薪資結構加班的這個結構裡面來做調整那麼其實我覺得一個比較簡單的方式因為現在這個司法人力不管是檢察官"},{"start":4150.951,"end":4179.274,"text":"檢查體系還是法院體系其實都有所謂加班時數的上限可是我們知道其實整個司法的工作他不是一個單純的像勞工一樣他可以說是很清楚的去釐清他要加班多好的時間常常他就是一個責任制這也是為什麼很多的我們現在看到我們的司法人員那麼他們都利用週末假日的時候甚至晚上還加班到非常晚可是"},{"start":4179.654,"end":4196.657,"text":"事實上他們每個月可能最高能夠領到的加班的這個時數只能40小時對那這個其實是顯然不合理這個部分其實已經討論非常久所以有沒有可能去檢討有關於現在加班時數的上限"},{"start":4197.378,"end":4224.696,"text":"我們可能是要採的是一個類似以案件來計算或者是說是再把加班時數往上面調那麼這個是本席希望就是說是兩邊單位是不是可以競速的將如何改善加班時數檢討這個加班機制這個部分那可以請兩個單位都可以競速提出相關的方案來解決這個問題請問秘書長有可能做到嗎"},{"start":4228.498,"end":4247.223,"text":"在前提是經會席殼下我們當然是盡量來能夠加班就盡量讓同仁加班前提也要經會過是 基本上就是你們要有需求你們要提出解決的方案那我至少在司法法制委員會這邊我會support就是兩個"},{"start":4249.183,"end":4249.683,"text":"法務部也可以嗎?"},{"start":4273.21,"end":4296.259,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想加班的問題是我們檢查機關從上到下大家會面臨這個問題剛才秘書長講的是很正確的因為是涉及到經費的問題那個會有排擠的效用可能會影響謝謝委員的指教那我們會在會後再強加以計算如果有需求再請委員幫忙"},{"start":4297.4,"end":4306.16,"text":"好,謝謝。那麼接下來就是可以請秘書長先回座,那我也想再請那個教育部,教育部今天是哪個代表嗎?是。"},{"start":4313.022,"end":4314.643,"text":"司法院秘書長、法務部部長、教育部率所屬相關單位列席"},{"start":4328.235,"end":4353.681,"text":"學校的教育輔導機制我看起來就是剛剛在你們的報告裡面你們寫了很多有安排心理諮商師又有各式各樣的不同的課程來協助以及他們除了學校之後的教育輔導的銜接機制可是我都沒有看到一個具體的數字就是這些經過你們輔導之後的這些少年那他們再犯率"},{"start":4355.266,"end":4372.737,"text":"對,那這個部分是很重要,就你們的實施成效到底如何?早在學校裡面經過你們重重安排規劃的教育方式實施之後那這些受刑的少年他們出校之後"},{"start":4373.823,"end":4376.106,"text":"再犯率是有多少?"},{"start":4392.838,"end":4418.817,"text":"跟委員報告有關少年的這個前科再犯例這個是屬於特種的個資所以除了說少年他再入校或是說接押移進我們才會有這個數據不然平常我們不會有這個數據所以我們原則上我們會來加強相關的跟司法院合作的輔導機制"},{"start":4419.677,"end":4447.411,"text":"我認為這其實蠻重要的就是說我們要知道就是說經過了你這個教這個學校的教育輔導之後那他的成效如何他是不是真的有辦法去改善這些曾經這個犯過法的少年那麼他們經過重重的教育學習之後有沒有在改善他們的改善的成果如何那我希望之後可以請你們把這個相關的數據再提供給本席好嗎可以一個月之內提供給我嗎"},{"start":4448.231,"end":4458.754,"text":"就是把這些數據大概可以整理一下這可能我們回去要研究看看有沒有這些數據因為目前可能相關的這些譴責還是在司法院那如果在司法院的話那也請秘書長這邊協助幾個單位大家一起把這個資料給它整理起來"},{"start":4470.618,"end":4494.301,"text":"好那接下來我想再詢問就是說是還有另外一個部分是在今天沒有討論到就在少年安置機構的規定現在其實看起來也顯不合時宜我們知道這個司法院辦理捐助民間安置機構作業要點這個要點是在民國99年就發布了到現在都沒有改善都沒有修訂過"},{"start":4496.89,"end":4512.761,"text":"是的,這個部分我們大概就是會跟我們的這個邵氏法會,我們的母法修正的時候,我們大概會...可是這個行政辦法基本上你們可以很機動性的去做修正。是,沒有錯。對,我在這裡要強調的就是說是,現在我們的這個物價都..."},{"start":4516.443,"end":4518.844,"text":"衛福部說的資商費用每人每次最高是1600元你們到現在都還是1200元在補助要點的第三點還有另外像是補助要點第四點對於這個"},{"start":4542.29,"end":4548.012,"text":"是的,我跟委員報告一下就是我們邵司法其實從108年已經修正連昨天因為通過已經是第三波那這個補助要點我跟委員報告是我們現在的安置輔導是邵司法的保護處分的其中一種"},{"start":4569.62,"end":4598.296,"text":"那安置輔導我們會跟機構簽約簽約如果說那安置輔導的少年他需要就需要心理諮商其實在他的安置輔導的輔導的計畫當中其實就會有一個心理諮商的費用那這個部分呢是如果他有不足比如說他要進行的可能不是個人的而是比如說是家族式的那這個是在補助機構在本來我們已經在執行的安置輔導的需要心理治療的這個部分以外的一個補助的一個費用上委員做一個報告"},{"start":4599.817,"end":4625.657,"text":"總之就是說我希望你們這個補助要點就是安置機構補助民間安置機構最要點可以再進行一個同盤指導畢竟已經很久沒有再進行了那接下來我這邊我還想請教這個次長還有秘書長就是我們知道我們的這個禮拜二很辛苦我們國會改革法案尤其是立法院職權刑事法才剛修正通過"},{"start":4626.838,"end":4637.28,"text":"那麼現在外界包含行政院其實都有一些意見認為說我們有些名詞沒有定義清楚我想請教一下次長秘書長什麼叫反貪腐反滲透反托拉斯反傾銷請秘書長可以回答一下嗎"},{"start":4654.554,"end":4670.092,"text":"因為像這些齁 我覺得精準比較重要啦 比較重要 要精準啦是 要怎麼樣精準法您告訴我 什麼叫反滲透有需要的話齁 那有些這個 我也不方便在這邊就這樣回答"},{"start":4671.153,"end":4671.393,"text":"因為像這些齁"},{"start":4701.275,"end":4708.972,"text":"這個法規面它有一定的嚴謹度啦請問一下您知道這些名詞在我們憲法裡面它有定義嗎?"},{"start":4713.013,"end":4740.354,"text":"請問次長有沒有定義我想請次長秘書長剛剛講的是對現行法律規定已經有定義解釋的我們在這裡講萬一跟法條規定不一樣有一些誤會本席在這邊告訴你我剛剛講的這些名詞在法條上都沒有定義它就是一個不確定法律概念"},{"start":4741.598,"end":4767.51,"text":"好來麻煩上一頁所以我們在立法院職權刑事法第25條裡面講的反質詢它就是一個不確定的法律概念它的概念其實就跟之前面講的不管是叫反什麼叫反傾銷稅什麼叫做反貪腐反滲透它不就是一個要未來根據個具體事實的是否符合法律要件的一個判斷嗎"},{"start":4769.642,"end":4788.448,"text":"為什麼在其他的法律我們可以這樣規定在我們立法院職權行使法裡面包含這個很多法界人士那甚至行政院還針對這個部分要來提出復議甚至民進黨委員未來要提起釋憲我覺得這一點法律的common sense都沒有我今天聽了就是次長和秘書長的這樣回答我其實心裡還蠻感慨的"},{"start":4798.043,"end":4818.152,"text":"對 這個是一個在法律的這個用語裡面這非常基本的一個概念好 那麼我想就是希望未來就是你們在解釋法律的時候還是要秉持你們的專業去做一個合理的解釋以上 謝謝好 謝謝下一位我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":4834.732,"end":4859.105,"text":"有請次長。喂,好。次長,我覺得今天招委牌的議程非常有意義。就是討論青少年罪犯,如果透過教育輔導跟矯正機制,那預防再犯,促進社會復歸來落實社會安全網。"},{"start":4861.957,"end":4876.988,"text":"但是要討論犯罪後的改善機制前我覺得法務部可能要對犯罪趨勢有一定的掌握對不對是那所以我要請教一下請教次長你覺得現在青少年犯罪的情形嚴重嗎"},{"start":4882.879,"end":4884.239,"text":"因為犯罪的類型也有一點點變化"},{"start":4907.363,"end":4925.635,"text":"好啦我跟次長說啦其實真的還是那個數字掌握要準備精確一點12歲到17歲青少年的嫌疑犯你知道這個2016年就是馬英九總統卸任的時候是多少人嗎?9476人啦那2023年是多少?我告訴你是10419人"},{"start":4934.656,"end":4946.7,"text":"有就是相對是成長可是呢以犯罪嫌疑以嫌疑犯總數來看馬政府八年任內因為他在2008年上任的時候是11106人"},{"start":4950.014,"end":4966.655,"text":"然後在2016年他卸任的時候是9476人到2023年的話就是又變成是10419人所以從嫌疑犯總數來看馬政府8年任內青少年嫌疑犯減少了15%"},{"start":4969.177,"end":4987.227,"text":"蔡英文任內則增加百分之十但是還有一個很重要因素喔市長你知道現在我們的少子化很嚴重吧對不對這是事實所以青少年我們青少年的人口比重是越來越高還是越來越低啊人口總數啦越來越高還是越來越低低越來越低"},{"start":4988.848,"end":5011.383,"text":"青少年人口總數越來越低但是嫌疑犯人數卻增加了10個百分點換言之如果換算比重的話增加情況是更嚴重那如果說今天我們考量少子化因素你知道問題就更嚴重就是說每萬位青少年嫌疑犯人數你知道2008年是多少嗎就是馬英九上任前上任的時候"},{"start":5014.65,"end":5042.21,"text":"呃..."},{"start":5042.935,"end":5069.273,"text":"我們剛剛也看了一下一些我們的統計數據齁我先跟次長講 都警政署的統計你不要跟我講警政署統計是不對的喔不是不對 委員 我不是這個意思警政署統計不對包委員 我沒有說不對我的意思是說 最近的案件增加大部分都是少年車手炸雞案件對 不要緊張啦 次長我下一個就要問這個問題啦所以 這個數據的你不是說你超前部署"},{"start":5069.973,"end":5097.929,"text":"你知道我下一個要問的問題我要先跟次長說不管怎麼樣是哪一種犯罪類型青少年是國家的未來吧我不管你的犯的罪是偷竊還是詐欺實際上青少年如果進到犯罪才會我們今天想要所謂的矯正然後想要能夠再回歸的系統的討論就是因為我們不能夠看到現在這嚴重的狀況如果再惡化下去"},{"start":5099.229,"end":5115.058,"text":"臺灣怎麼辦啦?這個次長認同嘛對不對?認同認同至少第一件事情先不講說你現在後面詐欺我再跟你講啦車手再跟你講但是青少年這8年來嫌疑犯比重成長1.44倍你覺得嚴不嚴重?這個問題包含詐欺啦這個問題應該算是嚴重對嘛"},{"start":5121.283,"end":5145.578,"text":"所以我們先要正視問題的嚴重那今天我說實在話就是說基本上當然我們下一個問題就討論到詐欺的問題就是你剛剛講嘛12到17歲犯罪型態 輕少年犯罪型態最大幅上升的就是詐欺嘛 對不對警政署的統計12到17歲的詐欺嫌疑犯2016年是多少人你知道嗎"},{"start":5146.66,"end":5161.628,"text":"報告委員我們有這個資料953人2023年12到17歲的詐欺嫌疑犯多少人你知道嗎報告委員不知道2186人市長你知道我要跟你談的問題是什麼了吧就是2.3倍耶2.3倍我們國家未來的主人翁耶"},{"start":5176.661,"end":5193.015,"text":"射入詐騙的人數成長2.3倍我覺得真的是這種情況之下如果是以每萬人就以比重來看的話那更從6.2位每萬人6.2位是成長到18.6位以比重來看的話是成長3倍我用觸目驚心來形容次長你認同嗎"},{"start":5205.765,"end":5233.447,"text":"你認同嗎?詐欺成長到這種程度?委員用這樣子的形容詞,我還是尊重,不過我們看得出來...沒關係,我告訴你,次長,你如果不能體認問題的嚴重性...不不,這個問題我們可以知道是嚴重,所以我們...沒關係,我告訴你,主觀感受,我就是看到真的是覺得...我還真想用施明德的名言,毛骨悚然"},{"start":5234.844,"end":5250.955,"text":"真的 看到這個是很痛心的事情啊 非常痛心啊那接下來我就要問 當然現在法務部我也必須講啦 因為新政府上來了 對不對 亡羊補牢時猶未晚"},{"start":5252,"end":5262.572,"text":"所以現在要努力的來做反詐騙的部分那我們就回到今天來看法務部統計少年犯再犯率高達25%這是法務部報告裡面法務部統計的數字 對不對"},{"start":5268.078,"end":5290.251,"text":"所以要強調安置輔導感化教育可是我跟次長說根據台灣照顧管理協會的數字以新北市為例每名少年調查保護官平均每年要處理14件調查案、75件保護管束案還不包括假日生活輔導、安置輔導"},{"start":5292.172,"end":5307.178,"text":"感化教育等人力相當吃緊根據民間團體統計少年犯進入矯正學校再犯率居高不下以城鎮中學為例安置一年的再犯率是55.35%兩年的再犯率是66.39%安置三年更高達30%而且有36.58%"},{"start":5316.641,"end":5328.455,"text":"再次被收押當然這是個別民團的統計可是我想請問法務部那你有沒有掌握少年犯進入矯正學校安置一年、兩年跟三年的再犯率統計"},{"start":5330.832,"end":5356.107,"text":"剛才那個那個署長有特別講這個資料除非他再進學校否則我們是沒有辦法去調查的市長我這個就是我要多說一句話以前如果沒有做那也不能怪你啦民團做得出來如果連我們政府單位都做不出來但民團做得出來精不精確那民團做的"},{"start":5357.264,"end":5376.28,"text":"可是這個再犯率的數字不就是某種程度我們所謂的少年安置的一個績效指標嗎就是代表我們到底安置透過這個人的措施我們減少他再犯我們要減少再犯率要看到減少再犯的結果嘛 對不對"},{"start":5377.568,"end":5378.469,"text":"我們請署長回答這個比較技術性的問題"},{"start":5399.006,"end":5426.538,"text":"跟委員報告,去年的11月,城鎮中學有輔導教師在學術研討會上有做一個經驗分享說,少角校出校的學生,他的再犯率是大概五成左右就跟剛剛那個民團稍微有點落差啦但是他是個人的經驗分享,就我剛剛有提到的除了是再入校﹖議長,我覺得個人的經驗分享這個部分,那是個人"},{"start":5427.278,"end":5427.498,"text":"好 謝謝你 以上 謝謝"},{"start":5459.333,"end":5469.576,"text":"好 謝謝 我們下一位請沈博洋委員沈博洋委員沈博洋委員鍾瑞雄委員我們接下來請鍾瑞雄委員發言謝謝 謝謝張偉 有請我們司法院吳秘書長麻煩秘書長"},{"start":5488.771,"end":5496.037,"text":"法務部部長先生他到11點才會來次長麻煩次長委員好秘書長還有次長各位列席的官員大家早我先來給兩位"},{"start":5513.82,"end":5520.266,"text":"看兩張圖表就是說從那個圖表秀一下"},{"start":5521.958,"end":5538.066,"text":"我們法務部司法官學任執行中華民國111年犯罪狀況的分析這兩張表近10年少年犯罪嫌疑人數最多在102年12,038人最少就是107年的8,893但近3年從109年的"},{"start":5551.576,"end":5574.094,"text":"1萬226人逐年減少到111年9554也就是說看起來其實是持平請問我們司法院看起來我國今年少年的一個處罰人數這樣到底是上升還是下降"},{"start":5577.164,"end":5577.804,"text":"司法院秘書長"},{"start":5595.117,"end":5622.697,"text":"你們的官網裡面是這樣講近10年來這個少年就是12歲以上未滿18歲調查事件呈現這個整個件數下滑你說你這個看起來就很明顯跟法務部的報告就有落差啦所以我要請教司法院秘書長就是說你們可不可以解釋一下你網上上次調查事件的定義是怎麼樣那我國少年處罰情況到底你們是上升還是下降"},{"start":5624.175,"end":5624.803,"text":"你們這個差距很大"},{"start":5626.414,"end":5655.589,"text":"你當然是有類型化我當然懂你的意思是 跟委員報告我們的調查事件呢因為我們的案源呢其實來自於三種一種大部分都是警察局對於少年如果有觸法或者是他有曝險那大概現在曝險大概會先送少婦會所以會送法院呢大概現在大概就是我們的觸法案件進來之後我們就會分少調所以這裡的調查案件是指少年12歲到18歲以下的這個少年觸犯刑法法律的事件這是我們的少年調查事件"},{"start":5656.169,"end":5684.616,"text":"是啦 我的意思就是說另外一種是檢察官那另外其他的還有不論任何人都可以向法院報告我以下要提的就是說其實我感受到我們司法院這邊跟法務部這個地方你們對整個數字裡面這樣的一個掌握其實在我看起來是有很大的一個落差啦我看起來是很大的落差但我想最主要啊國人最關心的大家也最痛恨的這幾年政府最想解決的就是這個少年的一個犯罪"},{"start":5685.776,"end":5703.045,"text":"大家最討厭的是什麼我看接下來打詐司法這個草野大家其實大家都有共識大家也非常的一個痛恨只是這個手段怎麼樣在通過法制化以後讓提供給我們這個整個司法單位有更好的一個利器事實上"},{"start":5704.518,"end":5721.08,"text":"一個詐騙集團裡面一個很明顯的一個特徵就是說他很喜歡找年輕人當車手反正被抓了向上去溯源青少年的刑責是最低的所以這個其實少年處罰的人數近十年你說沒有特別的一個漲幅我相信"},{"start":5721.983,"end":5736.714,"text":"我也願意相信從數字裡面來看可是這個沒有特別的長幅就像剛剛你提到的處罰的類型有所差別原本從竊盜人數最大宗到2021年開始變成詐欺人數最多但我要提出一點"},{"start":5737.816,"end":5759.955,"text":"我們政府必須要去反省的一個地方就是說我們去跟別的國家做比較你去跟鄰國的日本做比較的話日本從2003年以後日本的少年犯罪率跟犯罪人數一直處於穩定的下降的一個趨勢以2022年的為例他少年刑事人口犯罪的10萬人裡面是193.3人"},{"start":5764.981,"end":5770.027,"text":"臺灣2000同年2022年來做比較的話我們是每10萬人口裡面是800人日本193.3我們800"},{"start":5776.84,"end":5796.27,"text":"秘書長這個是很恐怖的你去看其他的國家台灣少年處罰人數這麼高這個看起來是很少見你看美國有時候我們都認為他治安不太好美國司法部的一個統計美國是10萬名裡面10到17歲的少年被逮捕率近10年他減少了57%"},{"start":5798.257,"end":5827.382,"text":"它降低了57%英國的狀況也是如此那10到17歲的少年逮捕率從2011年從20萬降到2021年5萬減幅75%所以我要請教法務部的就是說為什麼我們台灣少年處罰事件這麼的高我們沒有辦法去有效的降低是不是我們整個制度的一個設計上或者整個社會安全網上有哪一些我們需要去再改善的地方"},{"start":5828.427,"end":5851.909,"text":"青少年犯罪那是多面向的,絕對不是只有法律那當然,社會、經濟、家庭這些都是報告委員,那打詐是法是其實是我們在防止這個詐騙是一個很重要的利器那從源頭去管制、去克服會死的案件下降"},{"start":5852.449,"end":5880.167,"text":"那我們今年從1月到4月統計其實我們的詐欺的案件是下滑了已經有初步的透過各部會的合作其實我們已經看下法已經有百分之十幾的成績出來了那如果打詐是法經過大會在全力的支持我們我們這個法律制定好了以後相關部會的執法再制定出來會再更進一步的有效的打擊這些詐騙集團那這個源頭管制好了以後"},{"start":5881.067,"end":5896.245,"text":"末端的青年車手應該會有所減少所以我們就希望說大家一起努力大院能夠來協助我們我想這個是我們要報告的內容昨天我陪了卓院長去看韓院長"},{"start":5897.206,"end":5921.7,"text":"打炸司法行政院也弄出來了那我相信朝野這個部分其實其意也非常小我們都要好好的去檢驗提供給我們司法部門這樣的一個武器以後接下來的人數整個犯罪率尤其是少年犯罪會不會去做一個降低我現在針對的部分其實就是所謂的少年就是少年那我會特別有感就是這個地方"},{"start":5923.41,"end":5940.33,"text":"我沒有問題出在哪裡我們去跟別的國家比較人家是降低那麼多你說我們都知道少年少事法裡面針對暴險少年的保護事件跟處罰少年的刑事案件裡面提供他們不同的一個處遇用這樣的一個分流涉及到兩個重要的職務去做一個串聯"},{"start":5941.351,"end":5959.241,"text":"我看就是一個少年調查官跟少年保護官第一個他們肩負一個調查收集少年的一個資料你說開庭前交由法官去參考一個執行保護處分類似社會工作者這樣的一個角色來協助監督少年執行法案所裁定的一個處分這兩個看起來明確定位的一個工作其實我本席這時間比較少不然我是發現"},{"start":5966.445,"end":5988.033,"text":"其實很大的一個問題這個制度從原來的少年關乎人演變來你說少年調查官跟少年保護官從少年關乎人去演變過來到了我們1997年去修法以後把調查跟保護分開實務上你去看我從那個高雄的少年跟家事法院裡面來看運作上你倒就是變成把兩個又變成合併了"},{"start":5990.154,"end":5997.861,"text":"您可變合併了,聯名司長,要變合併了那合併以後就是說,你說這調查官同時也是一個保護官我看起來就覺得怪怪的"},{"start":5999.5,"end":6022.419,"text":"比如說我看就怪怪的你知道嗎就是說作為調查官你本來程序上你會保持客觀調查程序啟動以後發現少年可能跟有其他符合處罰的要見的一個事情理論上你調查官馬上要去告知那等於說他是一個監督、觀察、提交重要證據給法官的人那如果你就把這個調查官跟調查跟保護又把它合併在一起的話"},{"start":6023.76,"end":6031.26,"text":"有時候如果是我的話我發現一個新式犯罪的事實我調查右肩保護官我要被懲罰嗎"},{"start":6033.409,"end":6055.718,"text":"這簡直是一個兩難你反而沒有辦法讓保護官原本要跟少年取得互信這樣的一個基礎我認為你這個會打上一個大問號所以我請教秘書長就是說你像現在司法院目前當初利益良善的調查跟保護你把它分離的制度你這樣要怎麼具體落實也沒有辦法去改善這個像第一線這樣實務的一個方式"},{"start":6058.558,"end":6063.783,"text":"我強調的是風險我們的調查官跟保護官從1997年開始少子法大修法之後最早是少年關護人後來才有成關關護人其實主要是做保護的部分"},{"start":6081.758,"end":6099.223,"text":"但少年法庭的調查官他其實要去調查少年為什麼會去竊盜為什麼會去擔任車手背後的原因比如他的家庭功能他的教育功能到底有什麼問題所以調查跟保護後來監理的原因主要是人力的問題這我知道啦對是但是你本地分離你跟河流還要變合併你這個角色"},{"start":6101.084,"end":6101.204,"text":"會不會有衝突"},{"start":6122.794,"end":6127.818,"text":"問題出在哪裡你們知道嗎制度設計冷冰冰啊真正在落實的時候為什麼沒有你去跟別的國家做比較我就看這個數字啊"},{"start":6153.226,"end":6178.74,"text":"差距太大我們自己做筆稿我們那個數字呈現的下降趨勢其實是很急有 有下降但是那個速度是很慢的啦你反觀你去跟隔壁的日本甚至我們認為我們認為說整個犯罪率很高的美國去做比較的話我們也輸人添添嘛那一項很多制度的一個設計我會覺得當然很多人在努力我都知道"},{"start":6179.64,"end":6202.485,"text":"不想去打擊可是很多制度的涉及這是一種寮備一格而已啊你像譬如說你們現在少舞會本身的組織也很微妙啊那個地方縣市首長擔任主委委員那這樣警察跟社工人員一起來進行針對這些負險少年的輔導跟改善他們面對的都可能就是有一些譬如說施打毒品啊或有槍砲的人啊準備要砍人或做壞事的這一些這些人真的有心還真的有得去落實我們制度設計這個崗位"},{"start":6208.732,"end":6232.297,"text":"我如果做管理長、我如果做企長,我自己的事情就沒辦法了,我跟你們在一起?我只是去跟你們煎菜一個月而已,我去跟你們走一個月而已,當然也有鼓勵的性質,不能說沒有啦!所以這個就非常奇怪啦!那你本身啦,我再看啦,第三個問題我要請教一下,部長,我要請市長,我要叫到你就叫我先"},{"start":6234.862,"end":6262.576,"text":"這個少輔會我們現在少年輔導委員會先行以後我們就試圖讓這些少輔會有更多的職能任務變多但就像司法院講的人力也沒有變多那這些組織又這麼的鬆散地方各局處參與的部分實際上到底有沒有任何去統籌跟規劃你們有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困境我們從去年轟動全台的那種新北國中少年吃那個彈簧刀"},{"start":6264.017,"end":6292.825,"text":"把人殺害的案例就可以看到了這個少年他去過了關務所如果說少年保護官的能量是足夠你持續去做一個追蹤配合當地的少府積極去介入個案的話像這些悲劇我都認為說都其實都是可以減緩的啦都是可以減緩的啦所以我剛剛為什麼會講到說你們談出來的司法人就是常常會這樣法律人就常常這樣會講出一道制度"},{"start":6294.096,"end":6309.409,"text":"來制定一套制度可是呢冷冰冰的制度底下再來看具體的數字你會發現我們這些努力啊不能我就不想去打擊可是我就覺得這個成效差距太大"},{"start":6310.632,"end":6310.812,"text":"暴動以後．"},{"start":6326.129,"end":6351.392,"text":"是特別針對趕快教育部前的一些處遇提出的看法我這不再贅述了但是從整個少年少事法的一個發動的開始問題你就慢慢去現行少五會的權責跟一路陪伴青年調查程序到保護程序的保護官這個其實本席認為真的是重中之重不能因為說人力的問題啊到最後我們制度的設計本來是分流然後到最後"},{"start":6352.173,"end":6380.328,"text":"就變成說整個功能就失掉了不要忘記了你看我們第一條就講說為了保障少年健全的自我成長、調整跟成長環境並矯制他的一個性格這一步其實是很多前輩慢慢跟社會溝通才建構出來的一個制度那從對孩子的規訓跟懲罰逐漸去落實教育代替刑法的保護的一個精神這條路本來就會非常"},{"start":6381.442,"end":6382.642,"text":"我們也期待真的是"},{"start":6411.612,"end":6440.248,"text":"真的這個部分要努力啦我剛剛看到這個數字喔尤其是法務部跟司法院這樣的一個數字我兩張圖表讓你看你們就我就感受到你們的對數字這樣的一個看法還對整個狀況的一個掌握真的有落差但是我覺得我覺得你們是無感的因為你們看的是制度立法院看的是說這些冷冰冰的數字裡面我們怎麼樣去突破讓這個制度去發揮具體落實加油好不好好 謝謝謝謝中委員"},{"start":6442.8,"end":6457.173,"text":"接下我們請林思敏委員好 趙偉我們請那個次長麻煩許次長"},{"start":6466.527,"end":6471.322,"text":"市長早 委員早市長我今天看到一則媒體的報導我很訝異"},{"start":6474.081,"end":6491.573,"text":"這個報告是講說這個屏東的有關周點輪的這個涉及砸500萬替郭台銘買連署的這個審判庭的開庭他們當場勘驗那個當時的那個徵訊影像他們去對照當時的徵訊筆錄那發覺說檢方"},{"start":6501.735,"end":6510.638,"text":"檢方對周品全說以大局為重給我一點處理時間查證涉及政治案件不是我一個人決定上面都同意我們在放人"},{"start":6527.618,"end":6555.063,"text":"這樣的一個檢察官的一個表態檢察官在偵訊的時候跟被告說這樣的話市長所以這樣子這段你有看清楚了那你覺得檢察官會做這樣的一個表態跟被告來表態說這個案子是他一個人不可以決定要上面同意他才可以放人"},{"start":6556.164,"end":6578.073,"text":"所以這是不是政治力介入我們的司法報告委員 我們檢察官一定是按照刑事說法在執行他的職務這一個內容到底是什麼樣的內容我們只是看到報紙的報告我想而且這個案子都已經是法院的法官在審理中"},{"start":6578.373,"end":6603.348,"text":"已經進入審判庭所以才會去再勘驗這個光碟影像我們的立場對於這種具體個案我們是不方便評論當然至少個案你不方便評論只是現在我們看到的證據一分證據說一分話現在你的檢察官竟然在開偵查庭的時候說出這樣子說這個是政治案件"},{"start":6605.591,"end":6627.061,"text":"這個不是我一個人可以決定的要上面同意我們才可以放人因為這個案子在偵辦的過程中大家就一個質疑這是不是政治力介入但是從這個偵訊影像的勘驗這個偵訊影像就很明顯了就是政治力介入報告委員 這個內容我們真的是不曉得他是怎麼"},{"start":6628.241,"end":6644.284,"text":"報紙的報導怎麼出來的?我們以後一定會以法官的判決書的內容為主如果有的話我們一定會去了解這一屆的國會新跡象新的名義我們真的要期許法務部"},{"start":6645.953,"end":6658.442,"text":"有關於這種不管是在偵查任何的案件所有的案件我真的要期許你們政治力不要介入尤其不要半藍不半綠這個讓人感覺起來你們就是針對我們"},{"start":6663.485,"end":6681.397,"text":"國民黨的所有政治人物去偵辦我們一定是公正的我們是行政中立你今天在這邊說我們希望說未來我們可以看到說我們的法務體系真的不再有政治力的介入回到我們今天的主題"},{"start":6682.861,"end":6708.181,"text":"那目前我們市所矯正學校端平、城鎮、立志、名陽均為完全中學的概念那高中是以即職教育為主我看到您的報告講說在學生入校後一個月內會個案評估報告分析少年的背景以及處遇需求以提供適當的輔導處遇那就是說市長我們少年的犯罪太陽非常的多啊"},{"start":6709.406,"end":6737.232,"text":"是否每一個每一種犯罪形態你要提供適合的輔導嘛是比如說我們現在看到就是說現在那個少年詐欺的車手還非常多嘛巨增嘛對所以對於像這種類型的這種不管是少年詐欺啦或者是我們少年的這種這個性剝削的這種相關的這種少年的一個犯罪的這些這個新少年犯罪者要如何的來輔導"},{"start":6738.712,"end":6764.23,"text":"你們是不是有做這個適性的一個分類的一個輔導?有有,我們各種根據他的那個犯罪的一個類型都會加以輔導像詐欺好了,詐欺會牽扯到他的習性、他的價值觀、他的家庭環境等等那老師就會針對這個部分給他做一個完整的介紹說明以輔導他是,所以"},{"start":6765.199,"end":6789.727,"text":"我想這個在整個輔導過程中當然除了詐欺以外還有很多很多類型完全都不一樣都不一樣每個人的因為他的一個或者是因為他精神狀態的問題或者是他的心理情緒的問題而犯這個各類型的一個犯罪所以我們在輔導的過程中我剛才我看你的報告是有三級輔導這算是第二級的輔導處遇但是"},{"start":6794.758,"end":6802.369,"text":"你對於這些輔導就是說真正的輔導的過程是不是真的能夠讓這些人不再犯罪"},{"start":6803.908,"end":6805.129,"text":"報告委員．因為這些離開學校的學生他如果再犯"},{"start":6825.682,"end":6845.914,"text":"如果他沒有進就是我們的學校他只是在少年法庭這邊呢就譬如說已經就請回了家長帶回去類似像這樣的處理方式他沒有進學校我們學校沒有辦法拿到我現在是說進學校進學校之後他復歸社會之後有沒有做過統計請那個蘇處長"},{"start":6852.429,"end":6876.706,"text":"報告委員 我們原則上對於學生進入再犯率的統計 這邊是沒有沒有詳細的這個數據沒有詳細的數據喔對 但是我們主要是這樣啦 因為我看到你們的目前的機制是出校後將持續追蹤一年嘛是以利於穩固學生復歸社區家庭的狀況嘛"},{"start":6878.615,"end":6896.731,"text":"所以你要去追蹤嗎?去追蹤你不用做統計喔?報告委員 這個部分是少角校的輔導教師或是社工師他會跟縣市政府的社工師做後綴議我想現在大數據的時代啦我還是希望你們我建議啦 未來這個要做你才會知道說這些"},{"start":6898.152,"end":6916.078,"text":"這些孩子經過我們這個少年輔導學校他出去之後有沒有追蹤之後有沒有繼續犯罪這個才能夠對於你未來你這個學校要如何的去改善增進你的這個教育的課程"},{"start":6917.657,"end":6940.995,"text":"不是說你現在訂了三級制度,但是你都沒有去考量說出去之後還會不會再犯?報告委員,後綴的主要目的是要協助他解決他的生活問題至於說他有沒有再犯罪,這個部分並不是最主要的目的我是說可以作為,你有這個大數據的分析之後,可以作為以後你們學校在安排課程"},{"start":6942.196,"end":6961.921,"text":"看是不是要加強輔導 怎麼樣來深化輔導 要加強哪一種 哪一類型的教育 讓他不要再犯那這個部分是不是可以讓我們 學校的一個教育的一個重點嗎 讓他進到這個我們的少年輔導 是這個學校 矯正學校來這個念書 他的目的不是也要讓他能夠回歸正常嗎"},{"start":6964.241,"end":6989.398,"text":"來檢討相關的法規我們可以掌握的部位作為對法規的部份我們來研究其實為什麼我會這樣問你我跟你講一個數據就是成仁中學他在110年的資料統計資料他說安置一年的再犯率是55.35%近兩成的初校生會再次被收押初校時間越長再犯刑事案件的"},{"start":6990.379,"end":6993.984,"text":"暗自兩年的再犯率為66.39%暗自三年的更高,達80%且36.58%被再次收押所以我要請問你,為什麼再犯率會這麼高?"},{"start":7008.762,"end":7019.756,"text":"報告委員這個資料我們是有相關的統計安置大概是不到1%我們最主要是轉嫌復學跟就業最多安置其實很少我是不曉得這個數據是從哪邊來"},{"start":7023.669,"end":7040.219,"text":"你不知道喔 我再告訴你答案我知道 我會再告訴你喔所以我要請教的說目前是不是我們的追蹤轉型機制的規範不夠健全因為你剛才講追蹤才一年嘛後追一年對啊 你才後追一年嘛是不是這個時間不夠一年夠嗎"},{"start":7044.761,"end":7074.051,"text":"再犯率會這麼高所以你的整個追蹤機制這個是我們意義相關規定來跨部會辦理的是 所以這部分我是建議說我們可能要在這個法規面或者法制面你要去研議是不是要延長就一看現行制度就不夠嘛你不要跟我講說依照現行的法規我當然依照現行法規這樣規定啊但是看起來就是不夠嘛不夠完備嘛"},{"start":7076.89,"end":7077.59,"text":"接下來我們請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":7114.764,"end":7118.605,"text":"今天為什麼要這麼多的人在我們的備詢台因為我們知道少年"},{"start":7140.697,"end":7140.857,"text":"主席"},{"start":7162.189,"end":7186.275,"text":"就是在2022年的時候甚至到2017年我們的司法國是會議對針對於我們的少年矯正學校的一個處遇都認為應該以教育為處遇的核心這是世界各國的一個趨勢那大家都是有共識的而且會議當中也有記錄那下一頁所以就先來問教育不過先問的是"},{"start":7188.495,"end":7191.197,"text":"市長委員,將近111年的二月份的公告,稍等才一段時間後的司法會還有些什麼關鍵?"},{"start":7220.427,"end":7237.303,"text":"是 那我想問是什麼時候可以再啟動否則就是擱置在那邊調整條文在今年的3月我們已經到行政院了在審查中那預計在什麼時候可以"},{"start":7238.468,"end":7242.911,"text":"可能要看行政院審查的進度什麼時候再送到立法院"},{"start":7268.448,"end":7268.909,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7283.323,"end":7298.758,"text":"事實上是自為關鍵可是呢對於矯正學校的學生有沒有進行調整否則對他們來講事實上是一個很大的壓迫感因為他不想讓人家知道他過去否則學校要錄取他的可能性變成不高不知道這邊你們的配套又是什麼"},{"start":7300.223,"end":7319.484,"text":"謝謝委員關心其實學校就是四所教校他在運用108課綱的這個課程架構的時候其實大概只是提供他一個課程的架構那學校的課程規劃其實是可以在適應這些孩子的需求去做彈性的調整"},{"start":7319.944,"end":7342.467,"text":"那這些孩子每一個孩子我們都會就是有一副學籍的一般的學校所以每一個孩子他在就是學籍檔案裡頭其實他都有各自獨立的帳號他可以上傳但是他上傳是用一般學校的學籍他不會被辨識身份"},{"start":7343.248,"end":7371.249,"text":"可是為什麼民間有這麼多的反應我覺得教育部還是要去確定一下這都是團體他們在服務這些孩子的時候面對到的一些問題在整個課程的設計還有我們進入到矯正體系裡邊的實務工作者事實上都缺乏社會情緒能力跟技巧的培養我也期待矯正署事實上是要去做一些工作人員的培訓的時候要去考慮下一頁"},{"start":7372.95,"end":7394.993,"text":"那這個就是我們的保護室就你有逆境少年跟家庭支持服務方案可是很大的問題是在於這個工作事實上是每一年去做補助那就會變成是你如果最後追一年的話至少追蹤一年可是會不會明年又不是這個單位來承接的話就會是斷掉的那我不知道你對這個有沒有一個說明"},{"start":7397.428,"end":7424.403,"text":"關於補助的方式是不是可以以後把它變成是一個比較中長期的部分這個我們可以回去做一個研究所以也請馬上回去做研議否則的話中斷定不利那再來就是我覺得邵家廷這邊想問就是說整個司法處遇本來整個的資料就非常透明不足然後我們很難去看到你的成效到底是什麼更讓我們覺得質疑的地方是"},{"start":7426.004,"end":7440.697,"text":"他們到底要面對到多少人本來我們期待事實上是社工可不可以統籌有一個社工去統籌這邊也提到說以安室的管理可是實際上他們事實上是一個少年他面對到非常多的人"},{"start":7441.878,"end":7442.259,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":7457.642,"end":7481.778,"text":"一樣邵俄廷這邊整個的少年保那個少年調查官這邊大概整個的人力上市上市1比70相對於一般性的兒少保護大概是人1比25那逆境方案的話是1比20所以相對人力是比較高的齁甚至當初矯正學校大便也要也有特別去提到說"},{"start":7482.418,"end":7482.698,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7499.892,"end":7524.285,"text":"跟委員報告我們有盤點目前我們四所角度學校比較缺乏的是輔導教師缺乏5名還有就是心理師、社工師總共缺18名但是在這邊我要非常感謝教育部的國教署他支援我們心社人員12名本來在"},{"start":7525.826,"end":7542.32,"text":"去年就結束了,年底就結束了那麼它延續到今年年底,然後又答應延續到明年年底所以這個部分對我們來講是相當幫助但是我們將來會爭取編制的新設人員"},{"start":7543.381,"end":7560.18,"text":"不過也提醒矯正署這邊因為師資你可能要跟教育部通力去做合作啦為什麼因為不管事實上是我們現在的公職或教職的分類都沒有相關對應的相關課程來讓這些門被作為"},{"start":7561.055,"end":7561.275,"text":"提供討論"},{"start":7576.321,"end":7604.757,"text":"考量下一頁最後當然我就期待法部是不是可以盡速的是把那個少角條例趕快送出來教育部可能要去考慮到整個的少角條例少角的那個相關的內容的規劃跟實施還有是不是可以參考國外的做法來設置我們的少年矯正教育的研究中心還衛福部還是請盡速的去檢討是不是可以發展中長程的計畫而不是讓逆境每一年都要再去做"},{"start":7605.197,"end":7605.337,"text":"主席"},{"start":7633.274,"end":7636.896,"text":"邱志維委員鄭天才委員謝榮介委員鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":7662.95,"end":7670.658,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關司法官員、會長、工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生,有請司法院吳秘書長。"},{"start":7679.264,"end":7680.404,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7700.251,"end":7726.336,"text":"才能在徒消前科而且可視情況轉換在安置輔導跟保護管束請問秘書長是不是你們昨天有開這樣的一個會議?院會?昨天有是的有那我們看一下我們這個少年受管訓處分在早年1976年增訂了83條之一他本來是宣告完畢後5年而未遭受宣告就視為未承受該宣告是不是這樣?"},{"start":7727.136,"end":7742.629,"text":"那到1997年呢在83條之一呢你們把5年改為3年那增加了轉介處分不護審理或不護保護處分的裁定那為什麼昨天的院會你們講把改成說未在因故意觸犯刑法才做這樣的規定能不能說明一下"},{"start":7743.551,"end":7764.869,"text":"大概就是我們有去參考就是65年當時的這樣一個就是徒消前科他其實是有一個要件就是說必須是三年內他沒有再觸犯這些刑法法律受到管訓的宣告跟刑的宣告那有這樣的一個維持善良品性的一個要件那我們認為應該是要把它恢復回來"},{"start":7766.01,"end":7778.499,"text":"所以在1976年跟1997年的修訂忽略了這一條,所以你把它恢復就對了?是。好,我們往下看齁。那麼除了禮少年這樣徒消棄置之外,有沒有其他任何降低少年再犯可能性的作為呢?秘書長。"},{"start":7780.67,"end":7805.908,"text":"跟委員報告我想一個少年他透過一個犯罪其實就是一個學習的過程所以在司法介入我們是主要的目的是要去恢復家庭跟教育的功能跟社區的功能那所以其實如何預防再犯犯罪學裡面的預防再犯其實是一種這個一個方向其實我們現在行政院有一個犯罪預防方案的一個這樣一個措施那整個少年司法介入也是要預防"},{"start":7806.769,"end":7829.34,"text":"好,預防,你講了很多次預防,謝謝廳長,來我們來分析一下,其實目前的少年犯罪跟早年,我們剛剛以前想像說的戰後嬰兒潮在青少年階段血氣方剛,那麼暴力犯罪的事情占比相對多,其實我們去參考,很多國家都這樣,其實暴力犯罪跟那個人口結構是有關的,"},{"start":7830.16,"end":7846.437,"text":"如果當戰後嬰兒潮的人數在進入的新少年期到壯年期的時候他們因為從事暴力犯罪的可能性具有那個本錢所以較高但是我們看看這幾年來新少年的嫌疑犯的24%是涉詐期比例是最高的你們有沒有注意到這個犯罪行為的轉變"},{"start":7848.206,"end":7872.505,"text":"有的我們這個在近幾年來是有這樣的一個趨勢是的那但是呢我們這些屬於詐欺的輕罪他終結的都是以保護管束或者說在假日輔導為主那我們看一下在這個圖表當中107年到111年大概呢絕大部分的將近六成是保護管束還有三成的是訓誡或是加入輔導我請教一下訓誡是由誰為之加入輔導由誰為之"},{"start":7875.226,"end":7900.537,"text":"訓誡由法官委職,教育生活輔導由少年保護官很好,說到關鍵字了,這七個字,少年保護官,到這五個字,好,來,我們來看一下那如果在過程當中輔導資源不足,那少年呢,我們觀察到很容易回頭來投靠幫派我們來看一下在2022年的司法業務年報當中,過去十年受調查的少年當中三千多人當中,經常犯罪的降了三成"},{"start":7901.337,"end":7920.157,"text":"那他們在什麼地方在經常犯罪呢?我們看一下從學校的偏差行為到地方政府的少輔會因為處罰進入了少年法院裁定之後他或者是訓誡或者是假日輔導或者保護管束或者安置機構或者感化教育那我們來看一下在學校端目前我們的學輔法輔導老師高中每12班才一名"},{"start":7921.278,"end":7933.044,"text":"國中每15班才一名今天有教育部的副署長在其實我們都看到這個預防的部分在三級預防的部分的確是資源有限是不是這樣子教育部是不是也覺得資源是有限的"},{"start":7934.271,"end":7951.92,"text":"我們會努力爭取,其實包括修法再修,我們也會增加專業輔導人力好,但是我們今天談的是司法院主責的部分在保護處分後,我們的聯繫跟轉嫌會議是不是由邵保官來主責呢?我們來看一下"},{"start":7952.62,"end":7969.378,"text":"根據我們的少年法院與相關機關處理少年事件聯繫辦法第28條規定其實從少關所現在已經改名了出來的收容少年他要進行評估必要的時候相關的主管機關你看包含什麼要支援的聯繫匯報要求包括少年法院"},{"start":7969.858,"end":7989.975,"text":"社政、教育、輔導、衛生醫療、警政跟勞政因為我過去在地方政府我是擔任副首長副首長通常就是一些這種聯繫匯報的副主任委員也就在主任委員、縣市首長不能主持會議的時候都是委由副主任委員來出席副首長是不是這樣?是沒錯齁?好"},{"start":7992.486,"end":7992.867,"text":"聯繫跟轉弦誰來主責?"},{"start":8002.885,"end":8019.449,"text":"跟委員報告,如果說是保護官的業務會有保護官來主責但是有些時候像涉及到地方政府的局處我目前有這個二級聯繫會會由院長、地方保安院院長跟地方政府的首長去召開相關局處的聯繫會其實您剛講那個關鍵字啦其實就這樣的一個轉弦的機制來講呢聯繫匯報的行政機關的協調當然是以這些主管或首長為主"},{"start":8036.914,"end":8049.32,"text":"當我們保護管束的成敗與否,關鍵就在少保官。少保官最了解個案,他也最清楚,也當他有需要聯繫匯報去調度各種資源的時候,他是需求的發動者,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":8050.32,"end":8052.041,"text":"請問司法院每名保護管束的少年平均可以見到幾次少保官?"},{"start":8070.666,"end":8084.725,"text":"我們這個是有規則規定的來一嫌保護官來回答一下委員保護官請說委員你好就是有關保護管束的少年部分我們有一個要點制定是說前半年的話就是前半年你聲音大一點好嗎不好意思"},{"start":8085.836,"end":8107.765,"text":"前半年我們有一個規定說前三個月是說每個月至少要兩次那是它的情況可以再增加如果它的情況比較不穩定那我們甚至可以去做家訪或者是校訪等一些其他的動作那關於報到的話是至少要兩次就前半年前三個月每個月兩次之後如果狀況比較穩定的話我們再會降成一次一次那又至少一次我們來看一下"},{"start":8108.405,"end":8136.628,"text":"每個月只有一次跟少保官接觸我們舉例這個個案是媒體報導的那我們看看他說舉例他原文阿戶說在榨汽毒品這種案件大概都判個他們都會互相告知啊判個假日生活輔導經少保官所幾個月出來再加個保護管束對少年來講不痛不癢沒有什麼約束力你就根本就是每個月去法院給關護人他不知道是少保官啦關護人是成年犯啦可以看一下根本看不出什麼東西請問少保官跟他們"},{"start":8137.589,"end":8162.55,"text":"各案接觸是要看什麼?要看什麼?關於報告的部分我們其實會就他的一些生活狀況還有就學就業的情形去做一些瞭解那就是書面的嗎?還是口頭的詢問?除了口頭以外我們還會有一些資料詢問好那我們來看一下會跟他瞭解一下他在學的狀況如果你們需要對各案有瞭解我們看保護處分的量有多大你看一下齁"},{"start":8163.391,"end":8189.67,"text":"在我目前看起來呢我們的這個最近5年來少年法院裁定保護處分的案件數呢單單是2023年到11月為止就超過8000多件那以我們編制數來講呢目前是有不足啦還有缺額目前還缺了10個那一個少保官要負責100個個案是不是這樣子你覺得100個個案一個月他要跟他見一次面要深入的去了解他的生活狀況你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":8193.361,"end":8212.17,"text":"所以我們這次有提出那個就是希望可以增額的一個計畫所以你們認為編制不足要增額可是我跟你講啊 任何行政機關不管是你們的法官助理、司法事務官、檢察官助理、檢察事務官、檢察官助理或法官助理 通通人總都跟你講什麼秘書長 人總你們遇到這種事 人總都跟你講什麼目前"},{"start":8219.957,"end":8223.019,"text":"其實啊 刑事案件當中少年犯罪主要原因心理因素"},{"start":8249.713,"end":8270.428,"text":"差不多降了將近五成社會因素降了兩成那什麼是心理因素就他個人的問題那什麼叫社會因素外界的引誘幫派啦、陣頭啦、把他吸引過去那所以呢這兩個因素我們都看得清楚其實就是需要個人有人去關心他、有人去告、指導他是不是這樣子"},{"start":8271.751,"end":8287.441,"text":"這心理因素嘛,心理因素你沒辦法透過外面的社會連結的部分是的,社會連結跟他的心理因素,好,我們先來看那所以呢,其實我這邊提醒一下,司法院本身之外根深保護會在做什麼事情?那個秘書長,你知道根保護會在做什麼嗎?"},{"start":8289.363,"end":8308.977,"text":"深深保護就是對於比如說從矯正機關回到社區那要協助他能夠受社會適應所以說他的保護的範圍包括什麼受少年管訓處分執行完畢者還有在關護人關護中的少年因為這個法用詞沒有修過啦他在保護管署執行中有沒有爆發我們這個少年"},{"start":8309.677,"end":8328.285,"text":"當然有嘛我們查了一下他過去呢每年他的預算規模大概3億我們司法院邊預算補助他2億1還有他的其他收入但每年呢大概都用不完都還有剩我4千多萬累計的餘出呢已經還剩了7億多啊廳長你知道他有剩這麼多錢嗎"},{"start":8329.751,"end":8347.86,"text":"不知道 我幫你整理出來了所以呢 我們來看一下 那麼既然基金會有餘裕他可不可以協助少年來保護管束業務呢 我們看一下他目前呢 他一整年每年我們有八九千件的保護處分案件他一整年做了多少件"},{"start":8349.482,"end":8378.015,"text":"服務的更生人更生人做了700多個少年的才120幾個您覺得秘書長這就要換你來請教一下了您覺得耕保會的能量可不可以拿來好好運用這個應該要互相支援互相支援所以你覺得司法院每年編2億1000萬給耕保會你覺得可不可以透過耕保會透過他們聘用包括專職的社工、心理或這些非少保官核心業務的人來協助少保官執行這個保護管束業務"},{"start":8379.744,"end":8380.185,"text":"法務部部長"},{"start":8392.605,"end":8407.318,"text":"我們的徐市長,您覺得這個提議這個部分我們更生保護會我們是會來協助但是就是這些少年他們有"},{"start":8415.005,"end":8430.216,"text":"本來就比較沒有那麼的現在不是請他們來申請啦我現在意思是說我們司法院這邊的少保官的編制員有限他一個人要負責100個個案一個月要跟他們見面一次你們如果說我們的這個"},{"start":8432.895,"end":8452.141,"text":"透過我們基金會的協助可以聘一些人力來協助少保官你覺得有沒有可行性?更生保護是需要當事人申請不過這一個部分我們會加強跟少年保庭橫向聯繫跟溝通我們會提升他的案量來我告訴你你們就現有法制來我們看一下"},{"start":8453.127,"end":8466.861,"text":"來我們2019年齁那個我們的少司法修法才行政先行嘛對於負險少年偏差行為少年我們都列入我們的輔導之列往下看所以呢我們有一個叫少府會我們秘書長或次長你們知道少府會嗎"},{"start":8468.086,"end":8496.81,"text":"知道嗎 對不對少年輔導委員會的設置及輔導實施辦法第二條為什麼我特別提呢因為我過去在擔任地方政府的副首長的時候我當副縣長的時候我常常主持類似的會議但當時呢並沒有少輔會這種東西是後來我們修法之後少數法修法之後才增加的他這邊寫地方政府所設置的要整合包括什麼社政教育、衛政、護政、警政、民政、勞政、財政還有毒品危害的防治"},{"start":8497.31,"end":8525.258,"text":"那所以呢他這些呢他這個聯繫中心他可以向少年法院提出處理的需求所以說在保護主任組結束後如果能夠整合少會的資源讓少年持續來接受協助我希望你們要善用地方這種這個聯繫匯報把耕保會的資源也納入到這個聯繫匯報當中讓耕保會不是代當事人提出申請而是第一由聯繫匯報提出所以我最後的訴求因為主委已經響鈴了齁"},{"start":8526.238,"end":8536.211,"text":"三個訴求為了強化少年離開少官所、矯正學校或聯繫轉弦會議的機制請修正事法明定由少保官主責我們秘書長你可以考慮嗎?"},{"start":8538.219,"end":8556.132,"text":"這個部分本來就是由保護官去執行保護處分後面的聯繫跟轉銜會議的機制當然現在我們的少事法42條6項在保護處分執行中就是可以像委員你剛提到的包括我們未來可以跟更生保護會去做一個很好的聯繫那你已經講到第二點了"},{"start":8556.872,"end":8570.969,"text":"除了我們設法增補我們少保官的編制元額之外請你們評估運用多元的人力資源,比如說更生保護會來提供心理、社政的協助降低再犯,並一個月提供報告,可以嗎?你們跟法務部﹗我們會跟法務部這邊來洽商,好嗎?法務部可以嗎?我們可以聯繫"},{"start":8574.213,"end":8601.699,"text":"最後,評估保護處分結束後,要整合邵府會的資源,持續給予非行少年的協助。這個部分是不是也跟地方政府聯繫一下,了解目前地方政府設置了邵府會這樣的聯繫匯報之後,它的成效如何,可以嗎?是,委員,我們可以利用現在的邵司法的二級聯繫機制,就是地方政府跟地方法院提出一個他們的一個實心的成效評估報告。我們現在已經在運作當中,這個報告可以提出來。好,謝謝。謝謝民主黨,謝謝廳長,謝謝次長,謝謝。"},{"start":8608.099,"end":8629.743,"text":"謝謝等一下我們在11點的時候我們處理臨時提案那屆時如果有委員正在詢答就該位委員詢答完畢之後就即時進行處理下一位我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員下一位我們請張雅玲委員進行詢答"},{"start":8640.57,"end":8651.264,"text":"謝謝主席 有請法務部次長麻煩徐次長徐次長委員好"},{"start":8652.031,"end":8678.013,"text":"市長早安,我今天想要討論兩個問題一個就是有關於我們現在有關於少年矯正學校的處遇實施條例以及少年關戶所處遇實施條例的一個進度就是在2017年我們的國事會議裡面就已經有提到說矯正機關要立刻進行遇證改革之修法包含了監獄刑刑法修正草案、羈押法修正草案以及少年矯正機關收容處遇實施條例草案"},{"start":8678.913,"end":8701.81,"text":"但是我知道到現在2024年7年過去了我們現在只有羈押法跟刑法都已經送進來了可是我們的少年矯正機關收容處遇實施條例到現在一直沒有送到立法院那現在也分成了兩個版本一個是少年矯正學校處遇實施條例這個地方好像2024今年3月已經送進來行政院了那我想要知道"},{"start":8702.47,"end":8712.801,"text":"少年關戶所處遇實施的條例的狀況是怎麼樣呢?因為民間團體一直說他們好像都還沒有被邀請來討論可不可以幫我做個說明報告委員我們近期將辦理預告一個月那預告之後會邀請民間團體相關部會審慎的來研議草案並送行政院審查這關戶所嗎?在這個月內?"},{"start":8726.861,"end":8727.701,"text":"我補充一句話"},{"start":8745.185,"end":8760.452,"text":"目前是我們有在5月份通報行政院那我們用通報單通告行政院現在在核定中那核定之後我們就會進行預告社會各界就可以針對我們預告的內容提出建議"},{"start":8761.781,"end":8764.303,"text":"行政院合定之後我們會盡快來辦理因為我們現在在講這些不管這些修法我們都應該回到兩個重點就是說畢竟他們是少年"},{"start":8781.015,"end":8782.716,"text":"因為我知道他們現在好像放風的時間也都有所限制嘛"},{"start":8799.711,"end":8817.137,"text":"這部分一定要在這個草案裡面去做草案跟實施上面都要去做一些修正再來第二個部分還是要以教育為處遇的核心那這部分就是說雖然現在是有教育部來邀請相關部會來成立少年矯正教育及輔導小組可是跟現在無實質功能的"},{"start":8818.258,"end":8818.698,"text":"這兩個做一個提醒"},{"start":8834.827,"end":8857.829,"text":"那再來就是說我之前就有來追蹤有關於這個敦品中學的一個處置的一個策進行為的報告但是我發現所有的問題都在講學生學生長期依附偏差同才接觸幫派次文化具有衝動急躁性格施以告誡勞動服務之懲罰然後但是施以多數感化教育學生並無實質影響"},{"start":8859.611,"end":8875.564,"text":"所以我想先問我們到底有沒有了解我們的學生在裡面的學生裡面到底有多少的小孩可能是特教生我們有沒有做這些評估我們是請矯正署的周組長報告委員我們四國各地學校裡面特教生大概有非常多位那將近是非常多位比例非常高"},{"start":8890.29,"end":8918.129,"text":"打七分之一啊因為他們從送到這個學校之後我們都會在入校之前再做一次檢定嗎?都有再做一次檢定?因為這個社會一直不停在變化嘛所以我只是說我們有沒有在追蹤這件事情是 我們有三級的輔導機制所以這個部分我們會在二級輔導這個地方特別來著力加強"},{"start":8918.874,"end":8945.872,"text":"那我想知道我們這些特教生有得到相關的特教資源嗎?在裡面嗎?福島教師跟新設人員以外包括說我們有聘主代理教師等等這個部分我們都會來努力好 特教資源我們可以再詳細討論剛好因為你講到了代理教師我想就直接跳到這一題 剛好"},{"start":8947.253,"end":8971.838,"text":"我們現在正式老師有116人然後我們缺額55人我們用代理教師來處理的方式有將近八成可是代理教師其實是一年一聘我想要強調一個重點學生要跟大人建立一個關係才有可能去處理學生遇到的一些問題老師也才能夠真正的掌握學生的狀況才有可能去處理這些問題現在我們衍生的這些問題所以現在因為我們一年一聘的狀況根本沒有辦法培養信任感"},{"start":8977.579,"end":8992.932,"text":"所以這個如何讓正式的老師可以進來以及如何讓特教室的這些孩子們可以得到相關的資源我希望可以跟教育部一起來討論是不是可以引用教育部的IEP的方式來協助這些孩子那這些我們可不可以在會後約個時間來做一些討論"},{"start":8996.138,"end":9024.091,"text":"報告委員我們少角校的學科教師、輔導教師跟特教教師他是共用這個言語的那因為少角校的學生跟一般學校學生不一樣他大部分是家庭有問題的所以他的人數的進出是不是還有不定期性不是一般學校因此我們要保有一些彈性的切合但是我們聘用的這些代理教師都是合格的教師"},{"start":9025.091,"end":9044.738,"text":"所以這個是沒有問題只是是說我們在輔導教室還缺5位新設人員還缺18位這個部分我們會去努力再來爭取好因為關於這個我覺得我們可以再約個時間啦詳細討論第一個是代理教師的部分一年一聘這個問題你到底如何讓他持續的留在這邊這是一個很大的問題因為穩定性不高"},{"start":9045.538,"end":9059.387,"text":"我想您一定非常同意嘛沒有穩定的老師如何會有穩定的學生這是一定非常肯定的一件事情第二件事情是說我們到底這一些老師要如何讓他招募足薪資待遇是不是一個問題這我想都要詳細的做討論"},{"start":9062.424,"end":9089.651,"text":"一般來講新進的老師大概五萬多啦大家如果研究所學歷大概可以達到五萬八那個是指新進比較之前的那是對但是為什麼還是去找不到人嗎對吧所以是不是還有其他的對沒錯是對所以你都說到了重點嘛好但因為我時間已經到了所以我們再約時間來詳細討論好不好謝謝"},{"start":9093.473,"end":9110.761,"text":"好 那個本來我們是想說11點開始處理臨時提案但是因為剛剛那個行事廳這邊對那個文字的部分有一點意見所以我們是等在吳世堯委員巡打完畢之後我們再進行臨時提案我想說我把那個議程稍微變動一下好 那下一位我們請吳世堯委員"},{"start":9123.633,"end":9131.654,"text":"我沒意見阿 你們要對調我沒有意見阿"},{"start":9156.352,"end":9158.152,"text":"那我們先請衛福部保護司請保護司"},{"start":9188.363,"end":9204.654,"text":"林市長,我就快速跟衛福部討論一下我們辦公室一直在關心對於很多家長來說孩子們會被送到各式各樣的學習機構去不管是所謂的補習班、夏令營、冬令營或者是很多學校的社團課程甚至是學校的校隊"},{"start":9206.035,"end":9228.345,"text":"這麼多孩子們會去學習的地方但是在這些場域當中這裡面大人是不是令家長感到放心的所以我們一直在跟衛福部追一箭查詢這件事情對不對好所以如果你很清楚往下看下一頁我們一直在問說只要是違反相關兒少全法的公佈姓名相關的時效性必須要保持所以我們從學校端這邊我們之前做了解決我們4月開了記者會"},{"start":9230.206,"end":9244.623,"text":"但是我現在要問跟司法這邊有關的只要是相關的大人他的案件還在上訴的期限當中但是衛福部這邊如果沒有快速追蹤到相關加害人的姓名於是他就不會被公佈出來在CRC的網站對不對"},{"start":9245.043,"end":9269.564,"text":"目前是這樣可是我們看到以各個縣市政府他們其實有一些縣市政府是有積極的作為例如說新北市跆拳道教練當時有一個呂教練他性侵學員在今年1月司法一審被判29年但是這個人5月提出上訴可是在5月提出上訴之前3月的時候新北市政府就自己先立刻做出行政處分把這個姓名公佈在CRC的網站"},{"start":9270.265,"end":9289.942,"text":"也就是說只要縣市政府有所作為只要衛福部有所作為相關加害者的姓名他就算還在司法上述期當中他應該都要先及時公布這個部分衛福部我想要知道你們的態度是什麼目前主委委員講了就是地方政府的執行上面有一些落差那我們其實近期也會再找地方政府針對這個部分來檢討"},{"start":9291.684,"end":9301.188,"text":"好,就是除了之前我剛剛提到的教育部之外目前在這個司法階段這些加害者拜託你們也要積極那這個部分多久以內可以有相關的報告給我們辦公室?"},{"start":9303.786,"end":9326.397,"text":"因為我們是預計大概6月會找地方來開會6月才要開會喔所以在這6月之前很多這種加害者他還在不斷不斷上訴過程當中可是孩子們已經要被送去夏令營了現在很多家長都在報夏令營了我們根本就不知道在夏令營當中有沒有隱藏這些加害者然後他甚至是在上訴期間當中家長根本不知道欸你真的確定要到6月嗎"},{"start":9328.14,"end":9356.028,"text":"我們之前這個題目已經跟你們講很久了我不是今天第一天提耶是 那我想我們會盡快召開這個會議目前我們本來表定是六月初啦那這個委員 如委員提到的那如果六月初才跟縣市政府開會那你們希望多久以內跟他們開完會開完會之後多久以內你們可以確定他們的相關資料是可以上報到衛福部CRC保護兒少的網站讓家長可以一鍵查詢查到這個人他正有案件在上訴當中"},{"start":9357.358,"end":9380.919,"text":"是報告委員因為這個是涉及到地方執行的事項所以我們跟地方政府開會可是我們上次CRC的那個事情你們不是說有些事情你們會收回來衛福部這邊自己處理嗎是公告的這個行政的層面那我是說就認定上面因為有一些是涉及到刑事的案件它如果是在司法的程序當中那可能到底要到什麼樣的階段是地方政府可以做一個公告我想這個還是必須要"},{"start":9383.302,"end":9386.327,"text":"所以你們這邊之前有跟司法系統這邊有討論過這個問題了嗎?"},{"start":9388.902,"end":9393.444,"text":"我記得這個會議我們辦公室之前有跟司法系統追過他們好像也沒有肯認這件事情你們是不是應該要更積極告訴他們在行政裁罰上你們確實可以先做出相關的動作"},{"start":9414.091,"end":9432.795,"text":"是 所以我說我們大概是6月初已經排定了會議要跟地方政府來就這個事情來做討論好 也就是說我再幫您整理一次在所謂一件事查詢的系統上對家長來說我如果就指認衛福部CRC這個網站當我要把我的小孩送去某些營隊的時候我要確保這營隊裡面的大人是不是有"},{"start":9433.275,"end":9457.355,"text":"過去有加害與兒少的經驗不管是性侵、性霸凌或是不當體罰對不對所以我到衛福部的網站上所以你們現在開始收集的有幼教的資料有教育部這邊的資料還有衛福部在行政裁罰上的資料可是在司法這段我們確實漏掉了對吧如果他上訴的時間是五年十年而這五年十年他還在民間繼續教課繼續擔任加害者的身份在陪在很多小孩身邊我相信這是很多家長不樂見的"},{"start":9458.376,"end":9458.556,"text":"謝謝衛福部,謝謝主席,謝謝"},{"start":9485.547,"end":9485.587,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":9492.493,"end":9515.398,"text":"臨時提案共議案請宣讀臨時提案一略以要求司法院會同法務部於兩個月內提供敦品中學113年3月27日脫序事件之去識別化評估研商報告內容須並含一特殊事件之判斷標準本次脫序事件之發生原因檢討二改制矯正學校後面對大型脫序行為"},{"start":9516.098,"end":9536.177,"text":"警力配置該如何因應．又該如何預防管理．各管理職權則如何劃分．是否有有權無責之情形．如何精進掌握少年在校動態．進而強化輔導．以充分落實法院與矯正學校間之資訊不漏接．及達到協助少年健全自我成長之目的．提案人委員吳宗憲等宣讀完畢"},{"start":9553.268,"end":9554.509,"text":"我們請吳宗憲委員提案說明謝謝主席"},{"start":9577.854,"end":9592.43,"text":"有關這個部分主要是我們看了今天司法院的報告有關報告第4點定定少年矯正學校特殊事件通報因應措施在第11001612號函裡面這個"},{"start":9596.094,"end":9608.829,"text":"參考措施只有包括建置一些特殊事件的聯絡窗口還有強化法案跟矯正學校的橫向聯繫以及校保官在接獲通知後進行特殊事項的確認"},{"start":9610.811,"end":9638.206,"text":"他的重點是只有這幾個但是報告的內容他並沒有提及到對於特殊事項的判斷標準是什麼以及他的評估會議到底開過幾次會議的結論是什麼還有今年3月27號的敦品中學脫序事件他是不是屬於特殊的事件那敦品中學有無通報或者是這一次的延商會議的結論到底又是如何我想這些部分並沒有清楚的說明"},{"start":9638.766,"end":9661.521,"text":"所以我在這邊希望能夠做成決議要求司法院跟法務部共同於兩個月內提供敦品中學113年3月27日脫序事件的去識別化的評估延伤報告那內容必須含有特殊事件的判斷標準還有本次脫序"},{"start":9662.261,"end":9663.462,"text":"主要的目的是如上﹖謝謝各位"},{"start":9696.664,"end":9709.9,"text":"針對臨時提案請問機關有無意見或說明請秘書長主席好那委員那沒有意見沒有意見就剛剛這個提案沒有意見嗎"},{"start":9711.158,"end":9718.024,"text":"剛您提到特殊事件這部分是由法務部矯正署跟會上特殊事件什麼時候要通報他們矯正機關會通報給我們法院端我們會依照少年矯正教育實施通則跟他們的一個設置準則我們會去考核這些執行的事項"},{"start":9731.676,"end":9733.078,"text":"最尊重委員的一個提案,我們法務部沒意見。"},{"start":9752.541,"end":9766.378,"text":"因為我剛剛是有同意說文字的部分有修改有照修改後就是原本是司法院會同法務部那我這邊是覺得OK就是司法院與法務部共同這樣這我是可以接受"},{"start":9769.019,"end":9786.989,"text":"主席我是不是可以詢問一下吳委員召委這個提案 其實我是同意啦 但是還是要釐清一下你這到底在整間 寒是你手上在發的你這到底這頁布到底是誰的 看起來是法務部的"},{"start":9787.389,"end":9802.937,"text":"是是,那個跟委員報告就說因為我們要發函去促請法官他發了指引指揮書之後也要去考核這個執行的狀況所以我們是去促請要求法官他要去做這樣的一個就是業務執行的一個考核"},{"start":9803.537,"end":9805.959,"text":"委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會"},{"start":9819.091,"end":9845.547,"text":"去進行這方面的處理那他這個事件呢如果他列為通報事件他就會用特殊紀念通知他的一個指揮執行的法院比如說這裡面提比如說帶頭的有兩個少年那這兩個少年假設說一個是新北發的指揮書那他就會通報給新北少年法庭那法官依照這個部分他就會去考核到底這樣的一個感化教育的執行有沒有依照他的個別處域去執行他的感化教育是"},{"start":9846.067,"end":9848.089,"text":"法務部沒有進到責任,司法院就不管我的事,我想也不是這樣"},{"start":9861.121,"end":9878.107,"text":"其實跟委員報告我們過去其實監察院也發生很多的去這個就是正義彈劾就是一些矯正機關對少年的一些不當對待那這些企業我們都參考措施也是因為這樣去強化我們對這些孩子在少關所裡面的"},{"start":9878.847,"end":9892.537,"text":"要得到一個合理的對待甚至於矯正教育的一個對待以上那這部分就麻煩能夠依照我們臨時提案去處理因為其實有很多基層的那個少保官跟社工都跟我們抱怨說因為這個是"},{"start":9893.578,"end":9893.598,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":9924.956,"end":9948.664,"text":"如果沒有意見的話我們把文字修正成就是原本的臨時提案是要求司法院會同法務部於兩個月內文字修正成要求司法院與法務部共同於兩個月內那這個以上就做文字修正那如果沒有任何意見的話我們臨時提案的第一案依討論後修正之文字通過"},{"start":9961.623,"end":9966.469,"text":"是督導法務部啦欸 莊委員不是督導法務部是就這個事"},{"start":9968.366,"end":9981.905,"text":"事權的督導不是這樣啦拜託我們都念法律的我們一定懂怎麼會有司法院督導法務部這種沒有水準的話我不會講啦你沒看我現在笑眉眉我是在那裡是你剛才跟我說司法院的督導"},{"start":9984.208,"end":10007.163,"text":"法務部法務部要給司法院督導法務部派出所要給他督導安全者也不敢所以我們說很清楚是就這個事件的部分不是指他督導法務部啦這個這麼多的事我們不可能講這種話啦學長你誤會啦謝謝學長指教那接下來我們請吳士耀委員"},{"start":10015.496,"end":10022.445,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長馬文部長"},{"start":10024.911,"end":10025.031,"text":"國會擴權法案"},{"start":10054.871,"end":10069.479,"text":"昨天最新的是國家人權委員會也發布了新聞稿他們以世界人權宣言以及公民與政治權利國際公約的相關規定很清楚的訂出三大反對國會擴權法案因為嚴重的違反國際人權公約"},{"start":10076.463,"end":10096.818,"text":"第一項立法權過度擴張有侵害人民生活與隱私之餘這一點在說的是這一次國會擴權法案職權刑事法4748條以及50條之一對於國會調查權的擴充都會侵害人民的生活與隱私你同意這一點嗎"},{"start":10098.856,"end":10118.37,"text":"我們認為那個整個一個法案的一個制定必須要遵守權利一個分立尤其是五權憲法是各有職長我們是希望能夠合乎到憲法的權利分立原則好那世界人權宣言第17條規定的任何人之財產不容無理剝奪這也是國家人權委員會所說的"},{"start":10120.572,"end":10137.662,"text":"已經通過的立法院職權刑事法第47第48條就違反了要求人民提供跟隱私相關甚至營業秘密專利權利等等而且法案中沒有明定其必要性及合理性所以你也同意這個觀點嗎?對不對?這的確是有爭議"},{"start":10140.323,"end":10158.213,"text":"是有爭議的第三個呢國家人權委員會說法案所通過的第50條之一到之四都嚴重的違反世界人權宣言的第10條、11條以及公民與政治權利國際公約第14條也就是接受調查的一般民眾"},{"start":10159.053,"end":10177.691,"text":"不得拒絕出席這是現在的法案擴權的內容以及如果要請律師陪同的話還需要由主持的主席來同意所以國家人權委員會的主張認為這一點是強害人民獨立無私及平等公開之司法權您同意嗎"},{"start":10178.331,"end":10197.709,"text":"的確有這個爭議好 謝謝部長的回答所以我們再一次在這裡透過論證國家人權委員會他以世界人權宣言以及我們所簽署的兩公約的原則都再一次的告訴我們這一次強行碾壓表決通過的國會擴權法案是違反人權的"},{"start":10199.21,"end":10226.844,"text":"那下一個呢我要就教於您的就是昨天我聽到在野黨的黨編說要成立國會的在野特徵組部長特徵組2007成立2017廢除嘛是立法院拿掉了法院組織法六三條之一那您認為現在在野黨所說的要再次恢復所謂的在野國會特徵組您的看法如何"},{"start":10227.79,"end":10231.632,"text":"所以沒有所謂什麼國會特徵組成立之必要更沒有合理性他更沒有合憲性嘛 對不對"},{"start":10258.007,"end":10265.026,"text":"這部分因為我們還是希望以憲法的權力分立原則來看這件事情"},{"start":10265.874,"end":10291.17,"text":"我都不需要再論述過去特徵組所犯下的相關的違反通保法啦監察法相關的這個九月政爭的事情我都不用再贅述但是我今天在這裡呢我要再把歷史文件拿出來再說明一次也就是在過去要廢除特徵組在討論法院組織法六三條之一的時候當時的法務部長在這裡他提出了五大反對特徵組繼續存在的理由"},{"start":10293.351,"end":10321.136,"text":"是說呢第一特徵組影響檢查機關內部監督機制對不對yes這個的確是有這個問題那當初的第二點宣言呢違反行政法上機關與職務不兩立的原則對不對依舊存在嘛第三個法務部反對有特徵組是因為呢概括條款明定特徵組的事務管轄是違反了法律明確性的原則這個理由繼續存在嘛對不對"},{"start":10322.113,"end":10350.997,"text":"第四點呢檢察官是具有司法屬性所以沒有再設特徵組的必要對不對所以這部分那個已經就政策已經決定已經決定嘛最後一項呢當時的法務部說這個所謂的特徵組是違反在意程序及案件的管考制度所以法務部期期以為不可所以過去的主張如此制度是一套的司法的精神是一致的"},{"start":10351.457,"end":10364.592,"text":"所以過去既然特徵組被廢除也被立法院自己通過法律來廢除的話現在更沒有所謂成立國會在野特徵組織可能及必要了"},{"start":10366.247,"end":10366.507,"text":"謝謝部長的回答所以呢"},{"start":10389.005,"end":10391.306,"text":"謝謝您今天回應我的一些主張跟說明"},{"start":10415.851,"end":10418.382,"text":"今天回到今天的主題 強化社會安全網"},{"start":10420.886,"end":10448.325,"text":"現在呢我跟您分享我長期在教育文化委員會那我一直在持續精進的校園三級的輔導機制就是三級心輔機制但是一再的從發展性輔導到介入性輔導到處遇性輔導其實是層層失靈的因為幾乎有六成以上有自殺傾向或是他真正自殺未遂或真的是不幸離開我們的孩子"},{"start":10449.723,"end":10473.957,"text":"6成以上是沒有被新府機制接住的所以教育部現在正在全面精進檢視現在的校園三級輔導機制下一頁那今天的主題矯正學校也是三級輔導機制就部長您認為現在的矯正學校的三級輔導機制他當然適用跟一般校園不同他有更特殊性的需求現行的三級機制您認為運作得宜嗎"},{"start":10476.853,"end":10489.887,"text":"目前的運作我想在署務上我是不是可以請那個我們角證的周署長來待會回答好我來那署長您親自在這是一個核心的議題您自己覺得運作得宜嗎"},{"start":10491.043,"end":10512.111,"text":"報告委員我們的三級機制在第一級它是指一般性的是這個一般性是由班導師還有教導人來負責這個制度我都知道您就回答我現在三級您認為在我們矯正學校在三級的機制裡面我們覺得輔導教師這方面切合還有五位我們必須要來爭取要來補強"},{"start":10514.972,"end":10517.453,"text":"我再次來對應教育部的現在正在修學生輔導法吳思堯提案希望能夠讓大學裡頭的學生輔導是1比900"},{"start":10530.521,"end":10548.583,"text":"那這是教育部從1比1200要進化到1比900現在法律還沒修正過但是都用公務預算去補強它那現在呢要進入這個核心我剛剛的問題跟命題就是說現在矯正學校的三級輔導其實有沒有運作得宜他就要關乎我們的輔導老師"},{"start":10550.405,"end":10562.38,"text":"的比例原額是不是夠特教老師是不是夠以及專業新設人力這三大塊嘛現行的矯正學校的輔導老師是1比25特教老師是1比21專業新設人力足夠嗎來 署長您再一次"},{"start":10571.523,"end":10574.024,"text":"新社人員不足過18名、輔導老師缺5名、心理師、社工師缺18名、特教足夠、剛補足"},{"start":10591.449,"end":10618.817,"text":"您又按到鈕了特教這個部分沒問題所以這是重中之重部長您剛上任我就用這一頁來告訴您現在的輔導老師還缺5個然後特教老師是一直補一直補才補上的新社人力還缺18個這是新任部長很重要的工作矯正學校我們不能放棄任何一個孩子這部分您承諾要多久可以來補強"},{"start":10620.095,"end":10640.184,"text":"我們盡速來補強不行 你要給我一個時間點我跟你講喔 教育部喔還沒有修法之前喔就用預算的方式去來補強喔沒有修法先用預算的方式來補強喔現在大學已經補強了將近八成他是用公務預算來編列喔你可以突破原額的限制你現在問題是出債 聘不到人還是沒有錢"},{"start":10650.024,"end":10673.009,"text":"這部分我們是不是請那個困難這部分我們是不是請教證書那個因為這個115年才有辦法到位好部長我這樣子我們時間到了您一個月內去提出如何補強的做法包括使成我分享給你為什麼左邊右邊我要告訴你教育部的機制學生輔導法是要修法的還沒有修法前教育部就用他的公務預算"},{"start":10674.429,"end":10693.937,"text":"想方設法用公務預算去補貼學校補強他的幸福人力可以從1比1200進化到1比900現在已經八成的學校還沒修法前他自己就用國家給的預算來補強矯正學校的數量是少的比起教育部要面對一百多個大學"},{"start":10695.704,"end":10697.525,"text":"一個月內提出我們的方案好嗎?"},{"start":10713.592,"end":10714.453,"text":"我們接下來請羅志強委員代理主席"},{"start":10744.735,"end":10745.035,"text":"吳宗憲委員"},{"start":10758.673,"end":10780.723,"text":"委員好好 部長好 部長 這樣啦 本來我本來想直接今天要跟你討論一下司法的輔導這個問題齁但是因為剛剛你又講了一堆我本來以為說 這國會改革已經翻頁了我們今天大家都不要來談這件事我們就 今天早上有記者問我問我想法 我就說 完全尊重"},{"start":10781.963,"end":10810.61,"text":"行政院要不要復議 要不要那個以及民進黨團要不要申請釋憲我說這個是憲法的規定我完全尊重我們也不應該有一句不應該的說不可以這麼做的話出來因為這就是法治我們是法治國我是念法律我非常尊重法律但是我覺得翻頁就翻頁了為什麼還要在那邊扯這個那部長我在司法圈20年您的狀況我比其他112位的立委更了解您的狀況"},{"start":10812.15,"end":10837.595,"text":"更了解您的想法以及您的一些想法的傾向我想我比誰都更了解但是我一直希望一個新的內閣我都期待我們就依法行政然後能夠中立的處理任何一件事情而不是一搭一唱的這樣回答沒關係那我覺得就就算了我還是尊重你是部長但是我覺得"},{"start":10839.326,"end":10861.241,"text":"今天我來講一個東西我覺得國會改革到現在如果真的還要再來講的話我跟你講我真的覺得執政黨是創意大賽這段時間從迴憲亂政一路延伸到抗中保台、舔共習近平到現在連世界人權都跑出來了"},{"start":10862.362,"end":10891.327,"text":"這根本就是創意大賽這不是在討論法條啦我就說了90%我們說討論法案的時間都在講抗中保台沒人跟我談法條然後現在對外說黑箱立法都不談法條我說真的我沒有辦法理解還好現在國會都有直播大家可以回去一條一條拿出來放出來聽是誰在亂說話好那再來我還要再講一個東西可不可以不要再秀下線了"},{"start":10892.779,"end":10919.375,"text":"你拿一個國會特徵組來談是不是違反權力分立我覺得這是不是笑死人中天電視台有一個叫民間特徵組那你說民間怎麼可以施設集團搞特徵組他這是一個理念是一個名詞嘛那你不要叫立法院的什麼特徵組那你叫做超級特徵組可不可以改個名字嘛這跟權力分立有什麼關係部長你可以這樣一搭一唱我真的服了你"},{"start":10920.819,"end":10943.369,"text":"特徵組的法律依據是法院組織法他是一個法制的機關法制設計下的機關這個立法院他依據自己如果立法成立後的生效後的調查權所進行的調查他把自己叫做我們組一個團體叫立法院的"},{"start":10944.849,"end":10970.315,"text":"在野特徵組這個跟權力分立有什麼關係部長你不能講這種話我們都念法律的我剛剛在那邊聽我不會去打斷在發言的立委的說話時間但是我沒有辦法接受你剛剛那樣的回答這跟權力分立有什麼關係那如果你這樣講中天的民間特徵組賴麗英主持的那個節目是不是那個就叫民間失色行堂"},{"start":10971.36,"end":10999.096,"text":"叫做施行正義嗎這就不是嘛這是一個名詞他如果今天國會改革法案過了他就是去行使一個法律上面給他的調查權讓立法委員去行使這個權利嘛那至於在野的立法委員他們想叫什麼名字這個也沒有設在法院組織法裡面也沒有設在任何一個法律裡面請問這個違反什麼權利分立原則部長從你嘴巴講出這種話"},{"start":11000.057,"end":11017.239,"text":"我這真的不知道接下來我要怎麼去面對你跟你談這些接下來法律的事情因為我覺得你基本上你的立場就不中立啊不然你告訴我這個違反什麼權力分立原則再來我上次也很欣賞你講的一句話"},{"start":11018.504,"end":11033.446,"text":"法務部在釋憲之前你們是不能講什麼法條他是不是你們不能做或者是你法務部跳出來這個違憲我不幹這是不行的嘛一定是大法官宣告違憲我們才說這個違憲所以不能做所以"},{"start":11034.81,"end":11050.848,"text":"既然我們都是念法律的我們都非常重視程序正義以及各種東西那是不是法務部對於國會改革法案的逼評可不可以麻煩我們依照一般的程序來如果行政院要提什麼復議那我們"},{"start":11052.95,"end":11072.31,"text":"新南接受因為這個是他憲法正確條文裡面的權利如果要釋憲我們也新南接受因為這個是國家法律給他的權利那就那我們都這樣做就好嘛而不是你在這邊講這個我真的覺得你剛剛的那個講法齁我真的"},{"start":11073.103,"end":11095.924,"text":"我真的覺得你會認定說這個是違反權利分立我真的我不能接受我完全不能接受那也不要在那邊騙我而且部長我跟您報告在座好多法官檢察官會看直播的也很多法官檢察官很多法律學者你這樣講他們聽了以後會怎麼再嘲笑我們今天在這邊做這件事情"},{"start":11097.884,"end":11110.564,"text":"所以我沒有辦法接受你認為再也如果成立一個再也自己成立一個特徵組這個叫做違反權利分離我沒有辦法接受而且這個東西也是在如果今天國會無法"},{"start":11112.145,"end":11134.654,"text":"的立法院調查權成立生效之後他才有可能依據法律去做這個事情那這個又違反了什麼權力分立這個是法務部可以講的嗎你要講至少改天您當大法官的時候那您再來跟我們上課告訴我們這個為什麼違反權力分立我沒意見因為大法官本身就釋憲那今天我真的"},{"start":11135.714,"end":11149.986,"text":"我跟您報告,我沒有辦法接受您的這個說法另外我剛剛講的,我說真的是創意大賽那另外,說這些法案違反世界人權、違反什麼我剛剛講的什麼違憲亂證,我說這真的是創意大賽"},{"start":11156.055,"end":11174.052,"text":"今天林卓水會出來講那一句話說這個東西是民進黨奮鬥30年2016年以前的民進黨法案也是這樣就你突然8年之後告訴我這個東西這麼的該死、十惡不赦不但違憲還跟習近平勾串然後還違反世界人權"},{"start":11174.893,"end":11200.564,"text":"我說天啊那2016年以前你這個執政黨你在幹什麼你竟然要立這個法出來你竟然要搞這樣的立法結果8年後在野黨完成你的當年的志願結果你現在回過頭來說在野黨這麼做是不對我真的聽不下去喔不好意思部長我剛剛講話比較重一點我還是非常尊敬您是我以前的長官但是我真的覺得"},{"start":11203.608,"end":11224.483,"text":"就是說行政還是要中立啦因為我覺得不管什麼作為國家國家能夠穩定一定是制度是長治久安制度長治久安的狀況就是不管任何政黨執政應該就是走同一套制度我自己今天我不管在哪一個政黨但我覺得"},{"start":11225.7,"end":11249.89,"text":"我們應該一起對付的是壞人而不是協助那個執政的人這我對於司法的見解啊所以這段時間不管其他的同事跟我談什麼司法的案件我第一件事一定是維護法院以及檢察署的立場我這不能干涉這種個案都不能干涉不能多說我一直以來我個性都這樣所以部長"},{"start":11253.53,"end":11279.6,"text":"不好意思喔 就是我說比較重 但是我剛說的都是憑我良心講的話因為我 從心裡我不認為你講一個名詞就叫做違反權利分立所以我才會贏了中天電視台那個節目的例子那如果你要這樣子 那我們我們就說 那是不是 那我們改個名字嘛就不要叫特徵組 叫超級特徵組部長回答法 要回答法部長 請問一下 為什麼違反權利分立"},{"start":11285.691,"end":11286.032,"text":"你剛剛不是這樣講嗎?"},{"start":11314.952,"end":11342.658,"text":"所以部長我跟你說啦齁你現在我跟你講這是公開直播的我們沒有任何人在帶風向這是公開的我現在就如果您敢在這邊直接講那沒關係你就講齁我現在我現在知道一件我現在看出來一件很明白的事情啦就是有人非常的無聊司法特徵組是法院組織法依據它所設立的"},{"start":11343.749,"end":11371.334,"text":"那至於民間或者是其他黨派或者是在野的人或者是誰喜歡自己組一個說我們大家來搞一個兄弟會叫做特徵組這個跟違反權力分立都沒有關係這個特徵組跟權力分立是沒有關係法院組是要有沒有規定特徵組跟權力分立沒關係對沒有錯沒有錯但是他剛剛問你的不是這樣他剛剛問你是說在野黨要成立一個在野的特徵組然後在那邊扯權力分立部長"},{"start":11372.998,"end":11379.891,"text":"我跟你講不然你今天回去再看一下剛剛他問你然後我就當作你剛剛答錯啦但是我跟你講我從心裡我就不這麼認為我如果認為我如果今天"},{"start":11382.079,"end":11406.965,"text":"你今天你立法院的這個修法過了之後在被大法官宣告違憲之前其實他的任何作為都是有他的法律依據至於說在野的這些人他們要組一個團隊自己要叫什麼名字那個是他高興就好嘛這個跟權力分立根本沒有任何關係至於立法院的調查權跟"},{"start":11409.566,"end":11433.375,"text":"司法的調查權彼此之間有沒有權力上面的五權分立上的的矛盾這個由大法官來解釋部長應該是這樣吧所以我說這樣我不認同你剛剛說的啦那我覺得如果你要用這個態度一路走下去那沒關係我講我們也不是傻子啦大家都是念法律出身的那我們就依法論法那"},{"start":11436.001,"end":11462.049,"text":"如果我的個性就這樣如果我今天在這邊講錯任何一句話歡迎你們就拿法律學者的話來打我那我這個人我不喜歡說謊我不喜歡亂講話我更不喜歡明知故問或明明知道是這樣故意裝作不懂的來帶風向我其實很不屑幹這種事情我所有事情我的個性直來直往嘛做錯事就認錯我個性是這樣子啊"},{"start":11463.58,"end":11481.149,"text":"不是說有一些人今天法律規定明明不是這樣人家做的明明不是這樣然後可以帶風向扯一些五四三我今天看到的就是這樣子啦所以我上次人家問我問題我才會說說真的我以前辦過的壞人可能沒有算了那個話不講下去"},{"start":11486.369,"end":11488.109,"text":"我們下一位請傅坤祺委員"},{"start":11523.756,"end":11551.457,"text":"主席我想今天本來是一個滿嚴肅值得社會關懷的議題我想召委今天排這個議題是非常值得大家來讚嘆鐵窗少年如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯還有社會落實復歸以及社會安全網的專報但是我剛剛聽到部長的答覆我真的覺得"},{"start":11552.816,"end":11569.922,"text":"政治在這個地方可以無限上綱是不是請部長來一下好不好謝謝麻煩部長部長就職多久了還沒滿兩個禮拜應該說還沒有滿10天部長您所在的位置"},{"start":11581.238,"end":11607.945,"text":"是全國的檢調體系都為你馬首是瞻你要特別謹慎你的言行尤其這在是神聖的國會殿堂不要在這裡配合執政者來營造你的立場跟帶一些錯誤的社會示範讓下面企業校友"},{"start":11609.298,"end":11633.986,"text":"逢迎拍馬迎合上議司法的風氣要調整我想部長首當其衝要以身作則你認為對不對司法本來就是本來不是逢迎拍馬那我想這是我們堅守的一個信念原則好 謝謝那請問一下您今天是部長還是大法官我是部長"},{"start":11635.069,"end":11658.022,"text":"你可以取代大法官的職務在這裡發言嗎?立法院的修法提案三讀通過的案子是可以你來決定有沒有符合三權分立嗎?有沒有符合毀憲亂證嗎?是你可以決定的嗎?"},{"start":11661.653,"end":11689.989,"text":"我想這個是社會上是有一些的意見社會上有意見一個法律人在沒有明確的法律出來以前你可以在國會殿堂以部長的名義取代大法官來表示大法官的意見嗎我們沒有要取代大法官的意見那請你謹言慎行部長我請教一下現在你兼任部長"},{"start":11691.707,"end":11712.262,"text":"現在有這麼多的青少年犯罪越來越嚴重包括孩子可以去把人家割喉台中捷運有隨機的商人案我們的教育就出問題這8年教育已經出問題"},{"start":11713.564,"end":11732.473,"text":"我們的法制面上面 法制面上面部長有沒有一些想法針對今天的主題有沒有什麼想法能夠對青少年的犯罪能夠降低而不再犯有沒有什麼想法 簡短說明"},{"start":11734.537,"end":11755.795,"text":"我們法務部所收治的就是屬於非性的一個少年少年刑事案件的一些的一些的處罰的少年那我們所掌管我們在整個社會安全網我們是在收治這些少年至於整個少年的一個預防的這部分那可能我們就是整個社會安全網有各權責的一個部會"},{"start":11756.445,"end":11781.333,"text":"大家的共同來做那以法務部來講我們就既然有非性有觸犯這個少年我們在少關所或者是在少年矯正學校那我們就是依照這些的社會安全網的這些一個理念我們就在就學的這部分我們希望他不要有能夠做一個銜接而不是說來在一個一個收治的過程中"},{"start":11782.077,"end":11786.198,"text":"這個矯正的部分本來就是法務部非常重要的一個課題跟一環"},{"start":11811.628,"end":11839.586,"text":"現在這個毒品防治的部分在青少年犯罪也是持續在61.94%這個青少年未成年的部分現在還是這個犯罪率達到61.9%的佔比毒品防治今天時間有限本席要求你是新任的部長要新的氣象對青少年毒品的防治"},{"start":11841.021,"end":11865.414,"text":"如何嚇死請部長這個部分給本席一個正式的書面報告因為這個事情你講了很多年但是毒品的問題一直沒有下降下來而且再犯率不斷的發生這個從一個叫防治一個叫做矯正之後如何再回籠"},{"start":11867.889,"end":11894.647,"text":"本席這樣講得清楚嗎請這個正式的資料完整一點給本席因為本席一定還會再請教另外對於矯正的部分本席還是要拜託部長現在我們整體的矯正處遇的整體的情況為什麼很多再犯率還是這麼高原因就是這些人到了社會上以後"},{"start":11896.199,"end":11922.07,"text":"還是要有一計能夠謀生現在在裡面是包括什麼指責那個什麼指連花這些東西在社會上他是沒有辦法銜接的我過去在我過去在花蓮縣政府服務我讓地方所有的這些公務機關甚至軍營軍人、國防部我們都合作不用到45歲退伍我們在"},{"start":11924.679,"end":11953.761,"text":"再營就給他第二專長訓練都由縣政府來支援不管是噴刃不管是汽修甚至修飛機很多大廚甚至園藝都甚至有機農業栽種都培養他們能夠有一技再生當時也協助國防部讓更多的人願意從事軍旅未來"},{"start":11955.103,"end":11975.517,"text":"不只45歲、48歲也有終身縫還有第二專長他可以做其他的收益所以部長本席提醒你要讓這些人不要再犯你一定要讓他有一技之長能夠在社會上生存下去要去思考現在的小鎮教育到底哪裡有出問題為什麼再犯率會這麼高"},{"start":11977.526,"end":12004.301,"text":"有沒有問題這部分我來努力我想我對這個議題是很有興趣我本來就是在做預防的這部分我本來就是有一直在長期做一個關注希望部長一個完整的一個提到的這些計值的這部分我們會來再檢視完整的一個計畫給本席本席很樂意跟你一起來討論把這個再犯的防制能夠把它提升起來另外我們還是要問一下"},{"start":12005.959,"end":12032.725,"text":"法務部本來就應該要中立本席再強調一下司法是國家社會最後正義的防線一定要秉持公正我們請秘書長一起好嗎?抱歉抱歉部長、秘書長本席請教一下這個透過中央社這麼多媒體報導本席不請教不行"},{"start":12034.755,"end":12062.893,"text":"一個郭台銘的事件參選總統預備賄選罪全國發生數十起幾乎都是醫科罰金都了事唯獨現任的屏東縣的議長這不是重罪為什麼收押了五個月然後現在起訴以後依然在收押"},{"start":12064.815,"end":12091.242,"text":"會選的事件有需要起訴以後還要收押嗎秘書長請回答向委員說明說這個涉及到個案不是不是不是我們一個政堂你不能永遠以個案來回答那今天既然是已經起訴了那如果起訴的資料不齊全為什麼可以起訴"},{"start":12092.628,"end":12097.745,"text":"那既然已經起訴證據齊全那為什麼還要收押請問一下秘書長"},{"start":12101.943,"end":12122.083,"text":"國際人權兩公約不是無罪推定嗎?是不是?是不是?不是!秘書長!北溪請教你嘛!國際人權兩公約是不是無罪推定?是不是?無罪推定這個應該是一個代言者一個代言者!好!那既然已經起訴了應該證據齊全啦!"},{"start":12124.236,"end":12138.765,"text":"為什麼還在收押因為那質疑說個案他要收押好好好你現在一直在強調個案那本席就不現在不跟你談個案也請教秘書長也請教部長請問一下各媒體報導這不是誰講的是在法院正式公開審理錄音檔有聽到檢察官"},{"start":12155.547,"end":12179.555,"text":"對偵訊人說大局為重給點時間來處理查證這句其實也還好啦那請問一下部長部長檢察官講的大局什麼叫大局我不了解這個個案這個大局不是這不是個案本席請教你一個正常檢察官會不會講什麼叫大局"},{"start":12181.383,"end":12206.86,"text":"什麼叫大局我對案情不了解這個大局是這個媒體已經報導這樣子了這不是說你了不了解了不了解你還是要給本席今天沒有回答還是要有書面回答這是貴部的檢察官對著偵訊人錄音錄影的情況是要講的所以才在法院開宴的時候聽到錄音檔是這樣公開審理在場所有的記者都聽到"},{"start":12208.74,"end":12230.22,"text":"所以共同的報導 國會當然要關注什麼叫大局請部長回答我們再來瞭解好好 你再瞭解再過來第二句話涉及政治案件不是一個人可以決定的什麼叫政治案件檢察官心裡還有政治嗎不是依法辦案嗎這部分我們再來瞭解"},{"start":12234.966,"end":12236.587,"text":"反正社會注意的事情我們都會"},{"start":12260.41,"end":12289.671,"text":"再講一次檢察官說這是政治事件不是一個人可以決定的那請問誰可以決定是部長可以決定還是誰可以決定錄音檔就這樣播出來了檢察官這樣說的檢察官這樣說的再過來上面要同意不是要同意上面都同意都那不是一個人他們上面不是一個人都同意再放人上面有哪些人"},{"start":12290.831,"end":12319.427,"text":"要都同意是哪些人部長這個我不清楚個案現在已經不是個案了這個已經是矚目事件已經涉及司法調查是否公正這是很嚴重的問題這不是個案司法調查是否公正部長今天你可以回答你不清楚請你"},{"start":12320.759,"end":12339.466,"text":"把這個案子給本席一個正式的書面回答本席今天正式提出在這裡錄音錄影我們在國會正式的來詢問這樣的問題檢察官可以這樣做嗎檢察官可以這樣做嗎檢察官可以這樣做嗎政治犯案的檢察官還是國家的檢察官部長"},{"start":12351.067,"end":12351.127,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":12372.934,"end":12378.857,"text":"郭益群委員、郭益群委員、郭益群委員、審發會委員、審發會委員、審發會委員所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束"},{"start":12391.224,"end":12412.504,"text":"委員質詢時,要求提供的相關資料,會以書面答覆請相關機關進出送銷,個別委員跟本會。部長,我還是一樣,就是一件事情,我還是蠻肯定您的一個政策,就是對於三專生再留任的政策,這個在基層檢察官反應非常好。"},{"start":12413.886,"end":12432.101,"text":"這真的是可以留下我們目前是戰力最強的檢察官因為戰力強的檢察官很多都走掉那您的這個制度真的是有效可以留下很多有戰力的檢察官那光就這一點我覺得我不敢說叫做"},{"start":12433.069,"end":12433.209,"text":"致謝部長"},{"start":12451.269,"end":12475.745,"text":"委員執行時,要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆,請相關機關緊速送交個別委員及本會。委員陳俊宇、謝榮介、沈發慧所提書面執行均列入記錄,刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。本次會議到此結束,現在散會,謝謝大家。"},{"start":12486.26,"end":12487.341,"text":"《法定人數不足》"},{"start":12522.276,"end":12522.676,"text":"本集完"}]}},{"id":"153422","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153422","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba1b034bff47c1deb14622ddde1e3527b97e05e04cf895f829a3edfb217b8fd1275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:58:06 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13:04:16","影片長度":"00:06:10","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:58:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T13:04:16+08:00","duration":370,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1188,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時58分）謝謝主席，是不是有請金管會彭主委？"],["主席：彭主委請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，今天我們主題是扣在如何創造這些企業的ESG，是不是在6月也要開始開徵所謂的碳費？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是環境部他們在研議。"],["蔡委員易餘：環境部那邊，對，所以我現在要扣的議題是說，因為現在環境部也審核過了，有6項自然碳匯的方法學，包括經營森林、竹林、土地利用的管理，或者是生物炭、紅樹林、海藻，事實上，未來因為要做到所謂的淨零碳排，讓企業去用這樣的碳匯方法學也可以創造ESG，我想要請教金管會的是，未來金管會會不會有怎樣的政策來輔導企業，或者是鼓勵企業去從事我剛剛講的，環境部審核過的6項自然碳匯方法學？這些方法學有沒有可能由企業領頭，開始在地方來從事這樣的經營？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，在我們最近推的永續金融裡面，我們會去鼓勵金融業，針對這些未來對ESG或是對減碳有幫助的這些產業，進行一些比較有利的投融資或是放款這樣的活動。主要就是透過這樣的方式，透過金融業的資金以及議合的能力來協助這些企業的轉型。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是讓金融業他們的資金去做一些貸放。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，對於從事這個部分的產業，我們給予更多……"],["蔡委員易餘：可是我們也更期待，除了金融業之外，事實上金管會還有管很多的上市櫃公司，上市櫃公司也是需要去創造他們的ESG，這個ESG有沒有辦法進一步的讓企業去跟地方的農業合作，然後他們也可以投入類似一些造林或者是去做一些海藻的復育，由企業領先來做，這個一定會比政府去做來得有效率。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們多管齊下啦！剛剛也有報告，我們未來要發展成ESG的評鑑，這是針對所有上市櫃公司，所以其實也可以考慮把這一項納入我們評鑑的指標。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我們也是期待主委可以好好去推動，因為我覺得像這樣的除了能節能省碳，而且還可以創造地方有一個新的經濟平臺，甚至很多農民都可以投入，然後跟企業有更深層的合作，我覺得金管會也可以扮演這樣一個角色。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們來努力！"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，我想要跟主委聊一下，就是現在詐騙的一些狀況，事實上，好多人都一直針對這些詐騙集團的問題提出建議，包括金融業要怎麼做，甚至現在的詐騙項目越來越多，有可能是假投資，像投資股票，後來發現是假的，甚至現在有很多是用虛擬貨幣，他們用什麼泰達幣，說泰達幣是對照美元，所以鼓勵大家去投資泰達幣，結果他進入並購買了泰達幣，但卻是進去一個假的平臺，由詐騙集團自己所創設的一個虛擬貨幣的交易平臺，那個交易平臺完全是假的，你錢進去後就匯不出來了，所以好多人跟我陳情，說他們有遇到這樣的狀況，可是一旦他去警察局報案，這個網站被揪出來，然後這個網站是架構在第三國，所以後來也沒辦法再清查，然後裡面的錢又被領光光了，所以對這個被害者來說，他投訴無門，也不知道怎麼去救濟，因為人也抓不到，充其量只是抓到那些車手、抓到那些提供帳戶者，可是提供帳戶者如果又沒有財產的話，他也沒辦法去追償回來，所以問題好多啦！所以打詐這件事情，我想這是很多部門都要投入的，我現在只想跟金管會說一個點就好，就是對於虛擬貨幣的管理，你們金管會到底有沒有要把它納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關虛擬貨幣，現階段已經在洗錢防制法裡面針對比如說眾所矚目的個人幣商，我們要進行修法動作，我想應該屆時會送到立法院來；第二個……"],["蔡委員易餘：可是你們只把它放在洗錢防制，而大家更期待的是，就虛擬貨幣，它有點類似投資股票這樣一個行為，所以虛擬貨幣還是需要予以高度的監控。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們正在逐步納管，前面有很多委員關切，我們未來有擬定專法的計畫。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這也要麻煩金管會了，因為我接到好多陳情，然後我們聽了也都好無奈，我們真的希望能做好打詐這一塊，不要再有這麼多的受害者，甚至有很多是老人家他一輩子的積蓄就這樣被詐騙掉了，讓人聽了都很難過。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢。","今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢時未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者，從其所定。三、本次會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。","散會。","散會（13時4分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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那我們也是期待就是主委可以去好好的去推動因為我覺得像這樣的一些又省碳"},{"start":190.68,"end":213.574,"text":"有節能審探而且他還可以創造地方有新的一個經濟的一個平台那甚至很多農民都可以投入然後跟企業有更深層的合作我覺得這個是主委但儘管會也可以扮演這樣的一個角色我們來努力第二個我想要跟主委聊一下就是針對現在詐騙的一些狀況事實上好多人都一直在針對這些詐騙集團"},{"start":216.115,"end":240.747,"text":"那也包括說金融業要怎麼做甚至現在一個詐騙他的項目越來越多他有可能是假投資投資股票就後來發現是假的甚至現在有很多用虛擬貨幣他們用什麼泰達幣說泰達幣是對照美元所以他鼓勵大家去投資泰達幣結果他進入去了結果他去購買泰達幣卻是一個假的"},{"start":243.328,"end":271.53,"text":"由詐騙集團自己所創設的一個虛擬貨幣的交易平台那個交易平台完全是假的所以你錢進去你就匯不出來了所以好多人跟我陳情遇到這樣的狀況可是他這一個一旦他去警察局報案了哇這一個網站被揪出來然後這個網站他是架構在第三國所以後來沒辦法再清查然後裡面的錢又被頂光光了對這個被害者來說他投訴無門"},{"start":272.951,"end":295.887,"text":"他也沒有不知道怎麼去救濟的因為人也抓不到比較多抓到那些車手抓到那些提供賬戶者提供賬戶者如果他又沒有財產的話他也沒辦法去追償回來所以問題好多啦所以打詐這件事情我想是很多部門都要投入那我現在只想跟金管會說一個點就好就是說對於虛擬貨幣的管理"},{"start":300.516,"end":304.794,"text":"這一個虛擬貨幣的管理到底會不會在金管會你們到底要不要把他納管"},{"start":305.829,"end":330.055,"text":"現在有關虛擬貨幣我們現階段已經在洗錢防治法裡面針對比如說那個眾所矚目的個人幣商我們要進行修法動作我想要送到這個立法院來那第二個的話可是你們只把它放在洗錢防治啊讓大家更期待的就是說就虛擬貨幣你還是要把它類似有點像是投資股票這樣的一個行為虛擬貨幣還是要有一個高度的一個監控啊"},{"start":330.535,"end":358.746,"text":"是不是我們正在逐步納管就是那前面有很多委員關切啦我們現在有未來有擬定專法的計畫好我覺得這個也是麻煩金管會啦因為我接到好多陳情然後我們都聽了都好無奈我們真的希望說好好的去做好我們打詐這一塊不要再有這麼多的被害者那受害者甚至很多是老年家他一輩子的積蓄就被詐騙掉了我還聽都很恐怖的好不好"},{"start":359.548,"end":361.853,"text":"今天單機發言的委員均已詢答完畢本次會議做如下決定一、報告及詢答完畢"}]}},{"id":"153421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba1dc0de7b5929e8048c05f44c04a464db7e05e04cf895f8297bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:15:30 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picture，畢竟我們預算會期也快到了，我覺得對立法委員來講，要怎麼看預算能不能夠花在刀口上是一件重要的事情，所以我們今天最主要是想要問整體戰略上的一個問題。在之前的質詢裡面，我們不斷地跟外交部強調，就是外交部一定有必須要接觸的對象，這個對象可以分成最上面的政府跟國會，我們立法委員其實自己也是外交的一環。第二個就是針對比較中間的，智庫、學界跟公民組織，我們在質詢的時候也一直在強調，我們不是只有在接觸外國的公民組織而已，還包含現在INGO要怎麼在臺灣落地等等的問題。最後當然就是面對社會大眾，這個也是最困難的地方，所以我在之前的質詢也有特別提醒，以中國來講，現在他們針對社會大眾做的事特別多，他們想要藉由社會大眾反過來去影響他們的政府跟國會，所以才會有上次用TikTok打電話等等的事件，這些大概是我們之前質詢的幾個重點。","因為接下來要進入到預算會期，所以我們現在比較想要知道的是，我們除了這些面對的對象之外，目前是針對哪一些領域在做？畢竟外交的領域太多了，像剛剛有提到價值外交，我們可能有學術外交等各式各樣的，所以在這一邊，我認為畢竟我們現在面臨中國的威脅是最多的，在面臨中國的威脅之下，這是以前我在民間的時候整理的，就是中國在其他國家不同層面的滲透狀況，總共有9個不同的層面，我就不一一說了，但是以我們目前來講，外交部當然是著重在最右下角的Foreign Policy，也就是外交的部分，就像剛剛部長有提到的，我們在學術、留學等等之類，我們有我們的學術外交，也有剛剛提到的經濟上合作的經濟外交，我們也有文化上的，這應該是滿重要的，尤其針對一般的社會大眾。另外，剛剛也有提到聯大第2758號決議，這個部分就是Law Enforcement，今天我會比較聚焦在Law Enforcement這一塊，還有臺灣最強的，就是跟科技有關的外交層面，所以這幾個大概都是目前外交部有在著重的。","我今天想要問的事情是，假設我們在每一個國家，譬如在經濟外交、文化外交、學術外交，我們每一個都做的話，大概在預算上也沒有辦法支撐啦，畢竟範圍太大了，有太多的國家需要交朋友。以前我們在民間的時候，會去針對每一個國家做一些不同領域的盤點。我這邊很快地用一個例子來講，譬如右下角這個是美國，灰色的線是世界平均，紅色的線是目前中國滲透的狀況，我們可以看到美國最嚴重的是學術的部分，所以也就是說，假設我們今天針對美國在做任何外交行動的時候，當然包含我們跟政府等等之類的，很明顯它在學術被滲透的情況是最嚴重的，如果我們把它作為對中國的一個反制措施，我們可能要針對學術多做加強，這就是一種。","但另外一個我覺得比較妙的地方就是，譬如左下角是烏克蘭，烏克蘭其實有一些是低於平均的，譬如它在媒體的部分是低於平均的；柬埔寨在學術部分被中國滲透的情況是低於平均的。在這三個月之內，我們在觀察外交現況的時候發現一件事情，現在中國不是只有針對它本來很強的部分在做，它反而會針對比較弱的地方去做，譬如它對國家學術的部分做得不夠，在這幾個月，尤其是在520之前，它反而是特別針對弱的地方在做補強，所以簡單來講，我認為我們今天針對外交的抵抗，或者在交朋友的過程當中，我們要針對中國做得很多、很強的地方反制，要注意到它沒做好的地方現在反而花最多資源，因為中國也想要把他們的資源花在刀口上。這個當然是我們現在的whole picture，我相信外交部有自己的戰略判斷，我們只是拿民間做的資料，這不代表是正確的，外交部自己在外館的判斷應該還是最正確的。接下來的會期我想要知道，譬如說我們在這個國家的判斷在哪個地方不足，在哪個地方中國做最多，我們可能要針對那個地方加強，這大概是之前質詢講的問題。","接下來我就進入比較細節的部分，第一個就是奧地利，最近新聞報導奧地利不承認我們的駕照，這個很麻煩，因為在歐洲開車有時候你一下開到德國，一下開到奧地利，一下又開到德國，所以你到一半的時候會變無照駕駛。這個部分畢竟跟剛剛講的執法相關，2758號決議是大的，跟國際比較相關。我現在想知道的事情是，像這一件事情發生是因為官方不承認，還是只是因為地方的租車公司把我們列為中國的一省，所以沒有辦法在這邊被承認，因此沒有辦法運作？這兩個方向差滿多的，一個是比較官方的，一個是屬於像航空公司把我們列為一省的問題。不知道目前就這個方向的掌握如何？"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。我們當然會先溝通協調，外交也是對等互惠，如果對方是基於政治的原因，我們同樣也會採取反應，就是互相承認跟互相都不承認。畢竟奧地利還是一個民主國家，我相信在歐盟會經過大家充分討論。既然歐盟要整合，我們希望大家在這裡面的交通能夠順暢，也讓國際間的駕照相互承認跟使用。我們會先確認這個問題出在哪裡，也有對應的措施。"],["沈委員伯洋：如果它跟官方有關可能尚且簡單，畢竟可以跟官方溝通，怕就怕它是個別的公司導致。如果我們真的要去影響個別的公司的話，變成我們對他們整體社會、文化的影響到什麼程度，跟我們在在地的媒體、宣傳等等就會高度相關。這個部分到底是往哪個方向，希望未來有掌握，之後我們再來追這一題。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來，當然它的手段是什麼我也覺得很重要，畢竟「影響」這件事情來講，它可能是威脅，也有可能是利誘，到底中國在奧地利是利誘做得比較多，還是威脅做得比較多，說真的，我們現在在霧裡看花。之前在5月24日，大概一個禮拜前，我發現有一些新聞報導，奧地利的一些特工專門蒐集這些機密資訊給俄羅斯的情報機構，並協助俄羅斯的特工搶劫一名試圖曝光俄羅斯間諜的外國記者的公寓，他們的國會也開始注意到，這個雖然不是跟中國有關，但很明顯的是，利誘可能真的要花太多錢，這種事情對他們來講比較簡單，如果這種威脅的情勢已經是跟俄羅斯合作發生，我認為中國可能也不遑多讓，這可能是我們在奧地利必須注意的問題。","接下來澳洲的部分，他參與我們的520，回去以後滿多人遇到中國大使館說要餐敘一下，威脅他們不能做，這個當然是2758號的細節部分，因為2758號是廣義地對國際宣稱。它如果對澳洲個別的國會議員威脅，跟他們說不得參與臺灣任何的活動，現在這個部分外交部的反制措施會是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：中共這些作為是戰狼外交的一部分，也引起反彈，我想在一個民主的社會，國會議員做國際交流或參加一些活動是被保障的，而中共這種極權統治甚至要跨境滲透或者是影響他國，都引起很大的反彈，他們甚至還把一些美國國會議員列管，好像是制裁。我相信臺灣越來越能夠跟理念相近的國家合作，因為我們是在第一線遭受這樣的打壓。現在中國這種威權擴張已經在全世界，造成全世界很大的反彈，滲透到剛剛提到像法國、英國、歐洲這些國家，甚至滲透到他們的民意機關。至於在整個社群媒體上，它發動這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰無所不在，臺灣的經驗很能夠分享，包括民間，就是你們在從事的這些事情。","現在必須做總合外交，因為外交是內政的延伸，中共怎麼統治中國，它就想要擴張、影響世界。這個時候臺灣不但不是麻煩製造者，我們是解決問題的鑰匙，所以臺灣要分享經驗跟各國交流。我相信透過剛剛提到的總合外交，部部都是外交部，人人都是外交官。我們要整合，因為現在已經可以說是智慧物聯網（AIoT）的時代，中共透過TikTok或其他社群媒體拓展，也是大家現在做cybersecurity、資安跟韌性的原因。但是沒有臺灣就會有缺口，像參加世界衛生組織、國際民航組織或者是氣候公約的這些組織，乃至於關於國際刑警這方面的組織，沒有臺灣世界就沒有辦法得到很安全的環境。中共對臺灣的打壓損人不利己，它作為一個麻煩製造者是大家的困擾，我們一起來面對跟因應。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長提出總合外交的概念。我剛剛問這個問題，像奧地利如果不給我們駕照，很簡單，平等互惠，大不了讓他們來這邊也不能使用駕照。當他們做這些威脅行動的時候，我們不可能反制，跟他們做一樣的事情，畢竟我們是民主國家。但是在總合外交的概念之上，我們在反制的時候，可能可以用本來總合外交概念裡面的其他手段來做反制，這是民主國家能夠做的事情。我們能夠反制的清單到底有哪些，可能必須更快速的盤點，因為接下來他們的速度可能只會越來越快。如果我們在第一時間沒有做出反制措施的話，它會覺得以後在外交上的打壓沒有成本，所以這個部分對我們來講是重要的。","至於對民眾的溝通，本來今天要講譬如像聯合早報在新加坡那邊，只要看這個報紙，他們對中國的想法會非常不同。我們在媒體上的宣傳，到底要怎麼跟他們的民眾有一定的宣導，讓他們可以影響政界或者公民組織無疑是更重要的。","不好意思，我超過時間，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.49471875,"end":3.1697187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.37096875,"end":121.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.04596875,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.37909375000001,"end":136.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.17409375,"end":220.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.39721875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.03096875,"end":351.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.08159375,"end":351.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.55409375000005,"end":351.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.75659375000004,"end":351.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.79034375000003,"end":405.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.53721875,"end":450.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.93096875000003,"end":518.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.2747187500001,"end":537.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.00596875,"end":554.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.47596875,"end":558.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.7622187500001,"end":563.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.02721875,"end":595.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.4272187500001,"end":596.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.20346875,"end":601.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.04659375,"end":603.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.6497187500001,"end":608.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.8472187500001,"end":614.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.97284375,"end":615.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.0022187500001,"end":617.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.35221875,"end":622.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.8703437500001,"end":624.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.5578437500001,"end":624.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.23284375,"end":630.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.53159375,"end":636.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.47159375,"end":645.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.6515937500001,"end":646.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.00159375,"end":647.99721875},{"speaker":"S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picture那因為畢竟我們這個預算會期也快到了那我覺得對立法委員來講要怎麼看預算能不能夠花在島口上應該是一件重要的事情所以呢我們大概在今天呢最主要的是想要問整個整體戰略上的一個問題"},{"start":41.62,"end":67.807,"text":"在之前的質詢裡面我們不斷地跟外交部強調就是說外交部他一定有必須要接觸的對象這個對象可以分成最上面的政府跟國會我們立法委員其實自己也是外交的一環第二個就是針對比較中間的智庫、學界跟公民組織那時候我們在質詢的時候也一直在強調不是說我們在接觸外國的公民組織而已還包含現在INGO要怎麼在台灣落地等等的問題"},{"start":68.887,"end":89.441,"text":"最後當然就是面對社會大眾那這個也是最困難的地方所以在之前的質詢也有特別提醒就是現在以中國來講他們針對這個社會大眾做的是特別多他們想要藉由社會大眾反過來去影響到他們的政府跟國會所以才會有上次用TikTok打電話等等的事件所以這個大概是在我們之前的質詢的幾個重點"},{"start":91.462,"end":114.794,"text":"因為接下來要進入到預算所以我們現在比較想要知道的就是說我們除了這些面對的對象之外我們目前是針對哪一些領域在做因為畢竟外交的領域太多了所以像剛剛有提到價值外交那我們可能有這個學術外交各式各樣的所以在這一邊我是認為說畢竟我們現在面臨中國的威脅是最多的"},{"start":115.536,"end":136.082,"text":"在面臨中國的威脅之下呢這是我們以前在民間的時候去整理就是中國他在這個其他的國家不同的層面的滲透的狀況那這不同層面總共有九個不同的層面我就不一一說那但是呢我們目前來講外交部當然是著重在最右下角的這個外交的部分但就像剛剛"},{"start":137.59,"end":154.848,"text":"這個部長有提到的我們在學術、留學等等之類我們有我們的學術外交然後接下來呢我們也有剛剛提到經濟上的合作這種經濟上的外交我們也有文化上的這應該是蠻重要的尤其針對一般社會大眾那另外剛剛也有提到2758號那這個部分就是law enforcement"},{"start":155.228,"end":155.388,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":175.256,"end":176.297,"text":"美國最嚴重的是學術"},{"start":201.432,"end":201.693,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":222.594,"end":246.822,"text":"左下角是烏克蘭烏克蘭其實它有一些是低於平均的譬如說它在媒體的部分是低於平均的柬埔寨它在這個學術的部分它被中國滲透是低於平均的那在這三個月之內我們在觀察這個外交現況的時候我們發現一件事情就是現在中國不是只有在針對它本來很強的部分做它反而會針對比較弱的地方去做"},{"start":247.282,"end":274.859,"text":"例如說他針對這個國家學術做得不夠他反而這幾個月尤其是在520之前他反而是特別針對弱的地方在做不強所以簡單來講呢我會認為說我們今天在針對外交的這一個抵抗或者說我們在交朋友的這個過程當中我們除了針對中國做的很多很強的地方要反制之外他沒做好的地方他現在反而是花最多資源因為中國也想要把他們的資源花在刀口上"},{"start":275.359,"end":298.491,"text":"所以這個大概是我們現在的一個whole picture那我相信外交部有自己的戰略判斷我們這邊只是拿民間有做的所以這不代表是正確的外交部自己在外管的判斷應該還是最正確的但我們到最後在接下來的會期我們會想要知道譬如說我們在這個國家的判斷是在哪個地方不足在哪個地方其實是中國做最多那我們就可能要針對那個地方做加強這大概是我們在"},{"start":299.211,"end":299.391,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":315.203,"end":315.323,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":331.572,"end":351.531,"text":"還是屬於在比如說只是因為地方的租車公司他因為把我們列為中國的一省所以呢我們沒有辦法在這邊被承認所以就沒有辦法運作因為這兩個方向差蠻多的一個是比較官方的一個是屬於像航空公司啊把我們列為的這個一省的這個問題所以不知道目前就這個方向的掌握是如何"},{"start":352.572,"end":372.509,"text":"謝謝委員我們當然會先做溝通協調基於外交也是對等互惠所以如果對方是基於政治的原因我們同樣也會採取反應也就是互相承認跟互相都不承認但是因為奧地利畢竟"},{"start":373.029,"end":385.557,"text":"他還是一個民主的國家我相信在歐盟裡面經過大家的一個充分的討論我們當然希望既然歐盟是整合希望大家能夠在這裡面能夠這個交通能夠暢順以外也能夠國際間的駕照的一個相互的一個承認跟使用所以我們會先來確認"},{"start":399.326,"end":399.486,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":423.844,"end":449.996,"text":"這個部分到底是往哪個方向希望未來有一個掌握就是之後我們再來追這一題那當然再來就是它的手段是什麼我也覺得很重要因為畢竟對於威脅這件事情對於影響這件事情來講它可能是威脅也有可能是利誘那到底中國在奧地利是利誘做得比較多還是威脅做得比較多這個說真的我們現在在物理看花啦那我之前看到這個5月24的時候也就是大概一個禮拜前"},{"start":451.016,"end":471.486,"text":"我們發現就是有一些新聞報導澳地利的一些特工他是專門在搜集這些機密資訊給俄羅斯的情報機構然後他去搶試圖協助俄羅斯的特工去搶劫一名試圖曝光俄羅斯間諜的一個外國記者的公寓所以很明顯的就是在他們的這個國會裡面也開始注意到"},{"start":472.167,"end":487.546,"text":"這個雖然不是跟中國有關但很明顯的是因為利用說真的可能要花太多錢了這種事情對他們來講比較簡單所以如果說這種威脅的情勢已經在跟俄羅斯的合作發生之下我認為中國可能也不遑多讓那這可能是在奧地利我們必須要去注意的問題"},{"start":488.632,"end":489.332,"text":"外交部的反制措施會是什麼?"},{"start":520.074,"end":537.393,"text":"中共這些作為是戰狼外交的一部分也引起反彈在一個民主的社會國會議員他在做國際交流或參加一些活動基本上是被保障的中共的這種極權統治還是甚至跨"},{"start":538.174,"end":541.895,"text":"臺灣未來未能夠跟理念相近的國家就是因為我們是在第一線遭受到這樣的一個打壓"},{"start":564.122,"end":579.16,"text":"那現在中國的這種威權的擴張已經是在全世界所以已經造成全世界很大的反彈甚至剛剛提到了包括在像法國英國等等歐洲這些國家他們甚至滲透到他們的這些民意機關裡面去"},{"start":580.521,"end":595.704,"text":"那至於說在整個社群媒體上他發動的這種法律戰、輿論戰、心理戰是無所不在那台灣的經驗很能夠分享包括民間你們在從事的這些事情也就是現在必須做一個總和外交"},{"start":596.525,"end":622.206,"text":"因為外交是內政的延伸所以中共怎麼統治中國它就想要去擴張影響世界所以這個時候台灣不但不是麻煩製造者我們是解決問題的鑰匙對台灣的經驗的分享跟各國的交流而這個我相信透過剛剛提到的總和外交就部部都是外交部人人都是外交官我們一定要做整合"},{"start":623.067,"end":645.977,"text":"因為現在已經是一個這個可以說是AIOT這個智慧物聯網的時代所以中共的這一些拓展包括透過TITO或其他的這一些社群媒體也是大家現在在做所謂的Cyber Security或者是說所謂的這個治安跟任性沒有台灣"},{"start":647.077,"end":675.539,"text":"就有缺口,參加世界衛生組織,國際民航的組織,或者是氣候公約的這些組織,乃至於這個國際警政,這個有關於這方面的組織,沒有台灣,那世界就沒有辦法得到很安全的環境,而中共對台灣的打壓是損人不利己,所以他作為一個麻煩製造者,是大家的困擾,所以我們一起來面對更硬硬。"},{"start":676.74,"end":695.055,"text":"主席抱歉再給我30秒就是說謝謝部長提出總和外交的概念因為我剛在問這個問題的時候像奧地利他如果不給我們駕照我們很簡單的平等互惠我們大不了就是讓他們來這邊也不能使用駕照但是當他們在做這些威脅的行動的時候我們不可能反制跟他們做一樣的事情畢竟我們是民主國家"},{"start":695.595,"end":712.42,"text":"所以在總和外交的概念之上我們在反制的時候呢我們可能可以用本來在這個總和外交的概念裡面的其他的手段來做反制這是我們民主國家能夠做的事情但是我們能夠反制的清單到底有哪些可能是必須要更快速的盤點因為接下來他們的速度可能只會越來越快"},{"start":713.34,"end":734.756,"text":"如果說我們在第一個禮拜或是說在第一時間沒有做出反制措施的話他會覺得以後在外交上的打壓沒有成本所以這個部分對我們來講是重要的那以及對於民眾的溝通這就是這個我們在後面這個本來今天要講的就是比如說像聯合早報他們在新加坡那一邊只要看這個報紙他們對中國的想法其實會有非常不同"},{"start":735.196,"end":735.416,"text":"謝謝主席 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邀請莊部長"},{"start":4.912,"end":33.874,"text":"部長跟金管會金管會主委彭主委請我們一起上議會只有短短5分鐘謝謝因為有相關啦部長首先請問金管會喔每股的交易它結算週期它要由T加2縮短為T加1T加1那麼意味著就是當天買進跟賣出在交易後的一個工作日就要付款那你們也派專案"},{"start":35.415,"end":37.136,"text":"金管會對於T加1的做法你們是不是會樂觀其成?"},{"start":51.158,"end":72.67,"text":"有關這個確實我們有做研議那詳細的部分我們也把一些利弊得失都做一些分析所以我們現在請證交所比如說這個部分我們會從幾個面向再討論我們已經做完這個研究我們會再來評估到底要不要採用也要觀察他們實際的那個績效我們再來決定要不要跟進這樣"},{"start":73.592,"end":73.932,"text":"美國5月28日實施的專案"},{"start":101.618,"end":101.938,"text":"觀察中"},{"start":114.5,"end":114.52,"text":"臨股問題"},{"start":135.572,"end":146.937,"text":"楊瓊瓔"},{"start":147.993,"end":176.815,"text":"領股我們現在在針對它交易的時間我們有做一些改進啦那至於說交易的成本還有就是我們我們可以來進行國際資料的比對啦可以專案去討論嘛可以可以好不好可以專案去討論可以因為小資族有這個聲音出來我們就可以納一個專案來討論到底可不可以通通都一視同仁不要領股又比較貴因為買領股的當然是小資族嘛那我們還是要支持小資族啊"},{"start":177.375,"end":178.015,"text":"接下來就是我們的聯合信用卡中心的統計"},{"start":205.965,"end":221.693,"text":"我們看到去年被詐騙的32.4億你要怎麼樣強化我們整個信用卡風險的一個管理同時我們也知道你現在你認為說我們現在看到銀行公會檢討財政部長在這邊我們看到說他們檢討信用卡被詐騙的發掘最多利用快速移轉"},{"start":232.983,"end":243.609,"text":"電現金高的以及做倒刷交易的主要有三大類遊戲點數、錢包儲值、電子禮券在這樣情況之下營養公會更嚴厲出方案就是說3000塊使用會移轉24個小時之後才能夠生效"},{"start":252.293,"end":257.277,"text":"金管會不會就刷卡額、範圍跟上路的時間這三項來做討論以降低對民眾的一個影響請做說明我們會再討論這個問題會再討論嗎?你看到了這個問題營養工會都已經說出來了這三大類別你們了解這三大類別嗎?現在其實對於打詐還有這些有關信用卡的一些安全的管控全力圍堵"},{"start":282.176,"end":308.148,"text":"楊瓔"},{"start":308.947,"end":314.171,"text":"最後一個議題再給我一分鐘 不好意思主席部長 詐騙的管道各個部門都頭腦脹了 越打越詐"},{"start":336.124,"end":358.713,"text":"被詐的數額越來越多所以本席要再請教民眾跨境網購的這個問題上次本席也請問了所以部長因為我們國人常常跨境公務那關稅署那要怎麼樣去落實宣導跟保障國人的權利因為民眾在進口貨物放行的隔天起6個月內填具申請切結書"},{"start":359.853,"end":360.194,"text":"法禁提貨"},{"start":374.873,"end":375.753,"text":"27日29日有幾個人知道,沒有人知道"},{"start":399.8,"end":413.918,"text":"上一次本席詢問的時候要求你們必須務實去做我也歡喜你們在27號有所做調整那我們還是滾動式檢討看了進行的結果怎麼樣保障民眾的權利好不好 要宣傳"},{"start":414.799,"end":414.819,"text":"蔡議員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153419","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153419","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba8507af1f00c0e6474622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374447817b53da4fb3745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"12:43:00 - 12:50:21","影片長度":"00:07:21","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:43:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:50:21+08:00","duration":441,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1065,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（12時42分）主席、各位官員、各位委員，大家午安。是不是有請金管會主委跟財政部莊部長？"],["主席：有請彭主委、莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝主委跟部長。我先請教部長問題，今天我們在討論的是ESG，大家都非常關心，希望企業永續發展、節能減碳，要跟部長請益的問題是，臺灣過去已經推動了很久的電子發票，請問您知道推動電子發票主要的目的在哪裡嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：推動電子發票主要是希望無紙化，第一個，無紙化。第二個，我們更希望是雲端發票，也就是把發票存在載具裡面，更澈底地無紙化，然後讓消費者不需要拿到紙本，讓商家的資料也可以做數位化，不管在對……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，解釋得非常清楚。請問一下，現在電子發票它儲存的地方是在哪裡？"],["莊部長翠雲：電子發票目前儲存，我們如果用雲端的話，它就儲存在雲端。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，部長非常專業，沒有被我考倒。無紙化就是傳送在雲端，所以我們手上拿到的發票叫電子發票證明聯，它是證明有這張電子發票的一個東西。","我先給部長看一下，這是傳統收銀機的發票，原本是希望把收銀機的發票無紙化，可是要跟部長報告，這是現在一般民眾會拿到的，你所謂的電子發票無紙化，會拿到一條這麼長的發票，請問部長，這是發生了什麼事情？直接跟部長分享，就是財政部沒有好好地跟電子發票業者去討論，明明無紙化的部分只要把前面的電子發票證明聯列出來，可是你們沒有跟電子發票系統去做商討，把所有的交易明細、計算公式，甚至下面還有非常多的銷貨資料以及促銷的東西，全部都在電子發票上一次印出來，請問這是部長想要推電子發票的目的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，電子發票它有統編，如果打統編我知道會有明細出來，另外一大串是一些折價券、廣告，這個跟電子發票沒關係。"],["張委員智倫：不用打統編也會出來啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，有的是折價券或是兌換券，它不是發票。"],["張委員智倫：部長，我覺得這個應該是長期以來的問題，您去買東西也會發現啦！我請教部長，你是不是可以來鼓勵企業，在做憑證的時候只要印證明聯，底下統統都不要？"],["莊部長翠雲：可是它也有在宣導，它在宣導的時候……"],["張委員智倫：有辦法宣導嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我是說商家為了做廣告或者是做兌換，所以它就弄那麼大的一個……"],["張委員智倫：那你推的電子發票，無紙化就是變成這樣。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的目的不是要這樣，我們的目的是發票能夠無紙化。"],["張委員智倫：好，那部長可不可以答應本席，你來努力推動，針對這樣的問題，讓政府來鼓勵企業，只要印出電子發票證明聯就好了，其他不鼓勵印出？"],["莊部長翠雲：不鼓勵可以，但是你不能禁止它，因為這是商家的一個作業。"],["張委員智倫：我沒有說要禁止，我說不鼓勵，好不好？尤其是從上市櫃公司企業ESG來看，應該就是要節能減碳，印這麼長的發票，哪裡來的節能減碳？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["張委員智倫：這是第一點。第二點，我要請教金管會……"],["莊部長翠雲：尤其感熱紙要減量。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，希望一起來協調。","請教金管會主委，我看到今天的專題報告，在第7頁的「參、引導金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」裡面有寫，「自111年4起實施，放款對象包括綠電及再生能源產業。截至113年3月底，放款餘額達2.8兆元，較111年底2.45兆元，增加3,500億元」，主委，這是你們的德政啦！可是本席在這邊要跟你們分享的是，請問你知不知道目前的綠電公司已經有幾家上市櫃了？我常常在新聞媒體上講，我們的綠電公司EPS從2元到4元到8元，結果現在金管會還在專案報告裡面說要補貼利率，請問這些綠電公司的利率是幾趴？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分容許我們請同仁查一下，再跟委員報告。"],["張委員智倫：這些公司都已經上市櫃了，都已經賺那麼多錢了，你還要再繼續補貼，而且還把這個當成是你的德政，請教主委，是不是可以分級一下？上市櫃公司已經賺了那麼多錢，你還要再補貼它多少利息？這樣公平嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們來瞭解一下。"],["張委員智倫：好不好？這個部分一定要瞭解。第二點，我非常不能理解，報告中說「規範銀行辦理企業授信審核時，宜審酌借款戶是否善盡環境保護、企業誠信經營及社會責任」，現在綠電的公司部分主推太陽能板以及風力發電，請問太陽能板到期了以後，它的太陽能板如何回收，如何做到環境保護？就我瞭解，已經有一批太陽能板到期了，它如何做到環境保護？以及這些綠電公司過去捐贈政治獻金給民進黨的政治人物，我沒有說不行，可是這就是你們說的善盡社會責任，要給它低利率的原因嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可不可以會後我再提供完整的資訊給委員？"],["張委員智倫：所以本席非常不能接受，不能這樣子去做。不好意思，主席，最後再借用1分鐘。","全民現在擔心台電有可能會破產的問題，我也跟經濟部講，台電帳上有一個核四的資產2,800億，已經沒有經濟效益了，應該要打為損失，可是它沒有辦法提供未來的殘值或是除役的成本，我希望金管會跟財政部來協助。","我要來問一個大家比較關心的，不好意思，最後一個問題，抱歉。我聽說啦！台電非常地辛苦，為了讓臺灣的電力是穩定的，有打電話拜託大型企業上市櫃公司儘量溝通，儘量少用電，請問金管會主委，你有沒有去統計、去瞭解，這樣會不會對我們的大型企業產生什麼樣的問題？請回答。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我還是要進一步瞭解，才能回答這個問題，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：你沒有辦法回答嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在應該……"],["張委員智倫：這已經是很久的新聞，有沒有辦法回答最後一個問題？這個問題會影響到上市櫃公司的生意，結果你們完全不瞭解。那我請問一下，有些企業可以拒絕，有些企業不能拒絕，這需不需要發重訊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在還沒有接收到這樣的訊息。"],["張委員智倫：沒有瞭解嘛！可是新聞都已經跑出來了，所以拜託主委、部長，我們一起來努力。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們……"],["張委員智倫：很多事情大家一起來努力，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，","接著請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接著請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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謝謝主委跟部長那我先請教部長問題今天我們在討論的是這個ESG大家非常關心的這個希望企業這個永續發展節能減碳那也要跟主委請議的問題就是說台灣現在過去已經推動了很久的這個電子發票請問您知道說推動電子發票的主要的目的在哪裡嗎電子發票主要我們是希望無紙化"},{"start":37.329,"end":38.73,"text":"好 謝謝部長解釋得非常清楚那你請問一下那現在電子發票它的儲存的地方是在哪裡"},{"start":59.7,"end":82.371,"text":"電子發票目前儲存我們如果用雲端的話就儲存在雲端沒錯部長非常專業沒有被我拷倒無紙化就是傳送在雲端所以我們手上拿到的發票叫電子發票證明簾就是說它是證明有這張電子發票的一個東西那我先給部長看一下這是我們傳統的這個收銀機的發票原本就是希望把這個收銀機的發票讓它可以無紙化可是要跟部長報告"},{"start":83.491,"end":110.981,"text":"這是現在一般民眾會拿到你所謂的電子發票無紙化會拿到這麼長的一條的發票請問部長這是發生了什麼事情直接跟部長分享就是財政部沒有再好好的去跟這個電子發票業者去討論明明無紙化的部分只要前面這一個把這個電子發票證明欄這一列給列出來可是你們沒有跟電子發票系統去做商討"},{"start":111.761,"end":138.722,"text":"把所有的交易明細甚至計算公式甚至下面還有非常多的這個銷貨資料以及促銷的東西全部都在電子發票的情況上一次印出來請問這是部長你想要推電子發票的一個目的嗎委員電子發票它有筒邊如果打筒邊我知道會有明細出來那另外有一大串是一些折價券、廣告不用打筒邊也會出來啦"},{"start":140.743,"end":145.23,"text":"所以部長我覺得這個應該是長期來問你去買東西也會發現那我是不是請教部長你是不是可以來鼓勵企業只要在做評證的時候只要印這個證明連出來以後底下匆匆都不要"},{"start":157.887,"end":186.969,"text":"那可是他又在宣導他在宣導 有辦法宣導嗎?不 我覺得商家他為了做廣告或者是做兌換所以他就那你推的電子發票就是變成無紙化變成這樣我們的目的不是要這樣我們的目的是發票能夠無紙化好 那你可不可以答應本席你來努力來推動把這樣的問題讓政府來鼓勵企業只要印出這個電子發票證明證明連就好了其他不鼓勵印出"},{"start":187.534,"end":188.875,"text":"我看到金管會的主委啊今天的這個"},{"start":211.026,"end":230.892,"text":"專題報告裏面在第7月第3他寫說你們要引導金融機構落實放貸及貸後的管理工作尤其針對114年起實施放款對象包含綠電及再生能源即是113年3月底放款餘額到達2.8億較111年2.8兆抱歉2.8兆較110年底的2.45兆高達3500億"},{"start":240.959,"end":265.089,"text":"請教主委這是你們的德政可是本席要這邊跟你們分享的是請問你知不知道現在目前我們的綠電公司代理已經幾家上市櫃了我們的我常常在新聞媒體上講我們的綠電公司EPS從2塊到4塊到8塊結果現在金管會還在專案報告裡面說我要補貼利率請問這些綠電公司的利率是幾%"},{"start":269.048,"end":285.978,"text":"這個容許我們請同仁查一下再跟委員報告這些公司都已經上市櫃了都已經賺那麼多錢了你還要再繼續補貼而且還把這當成是你的德政所以我是會請教主委可以分級一下上市的公司已經賺了那麼多錢了你還要再補貼他多少的利息這樣公平嗎"},{"start":287.473,"end":314.579,"text":"對對我們來瞭解一下好不好這個部分一定要瞭解第二點我對非常的不能理解的他說規範銀行辦理企業授信審核時要審酌借款或是否善盡環境保護企業誠信以及社會責任請問現在綠電的公司部分主推太陽能板以及風力發電請問太陽能板到期了以後他的這個太陽能板如何回收如何做到環境保護"},{"start":316.681,"end":318.861,"text":"這可不可以會後我再提供完整的資訊給委員所以這個本席非常不能接受"},{"start":341.886,"end":358.92,"text":"不能這樣子去做不好意思主席我最後再借用一分鐘全民現在擔心台電破產的有可能會破產的問題我也在這個經濟部跟他講台電有一個帳上有個合適的資產2800億已經沒有經濟效益的應該要打為損失可是他沒有辦法提供出"},{"start":363.524,"end":372.883,"text":"這個大家所謂所需要的為了他的產值或處理的成本我希望這邊金管會跟財政部來協助那我要來問一個是大家比較關心的抱歉最後一個問題抱歉"},{"start":374.366,"end":394.218,"text":"我聽說啦這個台電非常辛苦為了要讓台灣的電力是穩定的有打電話拜託大型企業上市的公司盡量溝通盡量少用電這樣子請問今晚會的主委你有去統計去了解這樣會不會對我們的大型企業產生什麼樣的問題請回答"},{"start":401.476,"end":414.292,"text":"這已經不是已經是很久的新聞有沒有辦法回答最後一個問題這影響到上市會公司生意的問題只有你們完全不了解那我請問一下有些企業可以拒絕有些企業不能拒絕這需不需要發重訊"},{"start":418.84,"end":431.77,"text":"我們現在還沒有接受到這樣的訊息沒有了解嘛可是新聞上都已經跑出來了嘛所以拜託主委部長我們一起來努力很多事情大家一起來努力好不好謝謝謝謝張智倫委員質詢接著鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員不在接著我們請楊瓊英委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153418","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153418","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba8037c6ecdd4fe8a64622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744b5c97df5e7f71b625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:34:28 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那我們也會把我們對公司治理的一個方向呢 要定期向董事會報告這個我可以肯定那的確在您的這個治理之下 我想各項部長是貸前或貸後啊 那個管理都還不錯所以才會明鏈前茅那彰化銀行那個雲林董事長 您是如何辦到的"},{"start":90.288,"end":107.438,"text":"謝謝委員的肯定那其實我們彰化銀行對整個公司治理面是非常非常的重視那在董事會下面我們也設了這個永續發展委員會所以所有跟公司治理相關的一些事項我們也會在永續發展委員會當中邀集所有的"},{"start":107.898,"end":137.382,"text":"因為這個委員會的召開是我們行內先召開所以所有的各層級的總行內各層級的部署的主管都要來參加所以公司治理不是只有說我們總務處或秘書處來做這些事情而已而是所有的部署裡面他們要貫徹一下我們對這個問題的一個重視所以是全行都能夠動員那執行的成果我們也會提交到董事會來讓董事會董事的成員、所有的董事們都可以知道那我們大概做了些什麼"},{"start":138.442,"end":166.23,"text":"董事長繼續努力啦其他另外四家公務銀行也是在第二級距表現都還不錯我是在第一級距喔我知道啦其他四家在第二級距表現也不錯六家公務銀行表現都不錯來請財政部莊部長有請莊部長然後負稅署宋署長宋署長委員好從這比喻上好像女性的董事長好像比較傑出喔"},{"start":168.571,"end":192.992,"text":"存儲巧合我想六位董事長都非常傑出都是公司治理的搶手那我問一下這個復改會上一次召開15年前有沒有可能在最近整體的財經結構、人口結構、社會經濟結構有那麼大的轉變之那租稅制度是不是要與時即進做一些調整15年那麼貴"},{"start":195.04,"end":202.544,"text":"對於稅制的一個變革我們事實上都是持續的在滾動檢討在107年做了一個大幅的所得稅制優化之後那這幾年間也都有做一些變化比如像人口結構的變化也有比如說像我們對於學前幼兒特別扣除額"},{"start":220.868,"end":221.428,"text":"金管會彭主委"},{"start":249.498,"end":268.394,"text":"主委關於油資的氾濫臺灣資金很多包括售行業包括海外回來的我們鈔額儲蓄也非常高投資相對是保守這種狀況對油資的管理金管會有沒有比較具體的做法"},{"start":269.42,"end":275.403,"text":"現在有關保險業的投資根據保險法146條的相關規定來辦理確實我們保險業過去的資金面臨到很多限制就是國內的投資不足國外有很多匯損的影響"},{"start":289.059,"end":311.874,"text":"主要是國內的可投資標的比較少那你們目標國內投資率會達到什麼樣水平現在說長期都低於30%那您的目標國內投資率要提高到多少這個現在的部分我們對這個數字我們當然希望針對主要是比如說引導保險資金能夠回到比如說台灣比較需要的工件"},{"start":312.634,"end":312.774,"text":"邱志偉"},{"start":329.652,"end":348.05,"text":"兩照你必須要靠國內民間的資金來參與國內的基建確實你要有配套你要有引導你要有誘因另外這個證交所櫃買跟期交所跟吉寶目前各自為證未來整合的可能性跟時針表您的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":349.912,"end":357.177,"text":"整合有它的必要性,也有它的競爭力的優勢。您的時程規劃是怎麼樣?您的具體做法是如何?"},{"start":374.148,"end":395.79,"text":"這個其實我們有討論過,主要是我們有看各國這個比如交易所的整併其實啊,它並不是說都是好的啦有沒有必要性,就整個台灣的狀況其實我們現在初步的評估現在的運作應該是可以維持現在的做法啦那20年前就有很多學者倡議啊,您當也是學者出身,您個人看法呢?"},{"start":396.511,"end":422.759,"text":"我個人對這個是沒有過去比較少討論這件事情不過我們內部有討論因為主要是我們現在交易所有很多的那個特殊比如說他們的組織型態都不同要做整合其實上也是有它實質上的困難那你現在要成立這個金融發展局或金融發展處對不對發展重於監理或者說發展跟金融發展跟金融監視要平衡對不對是"},{"start":423.496,"end":450.41,"text":"那你這個金融發展局金融發展處的目前的時程規劃現在主要是這樣因為我們受限於整體中央部會的這樣的組織設計上次也有委員說能夠未來若有機會的話我們朝向成立一個部的這個方向來研議那否則我們現在就受限於這樣要成立一個局現在是有實質的困難所以我們會這樣結論就是說成立這個局有困難這是你的想法但是做不到是不是"},{"start":451.19,"end":453.612,"text":"現在還需要有共識這一塊那至於說比如金管會內呢成立一個專責的比如說我們的金融發展與科技創新處的話這個部分我們在研議中"},{"start":469.248,"end":469.428,"text":"邱志偉議員"},{"start":494.503,"end":494.624,"text":"張志榮委員"}]}},{"id":"153417","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153417","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba735c1efd43b33ea14622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744daa82547630749675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:27:35 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12:34:18","影片長度":"00:06:43","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:27:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:34:18+08:00","duration":403,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":960,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時27分）謝謝主席。主席，有請彭主委跟莊部長，不過莊部長可以稍後。"],["主席：先請彭主委。"],["林委員楚茵：我第一個問題先問彭主委，因為時間有限。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：主委你好，辛苦了。我知道您是從學者轉任，對於今天我提的這個題目，恐怕您要以過去在學界的立場來回應我。5月8日的時候，教育及文化委員會曾經辦了一個公聽會，是有關於現在立法委員們都希望推動的青年基本法，那麼在公聽會當中，其實是沒有特別邀請財政部或是金管會來出席，我覺得非常可惜。","我接下來所提的版本，會在青年基本法加入有關於如何提升青年朋友這種普惠金融的金融素養，因為根據金融研訓院所做的報告，我們會發現20到29歲的年輕人是最無法抵抗金融風險的一個世代，剛剛前面的委員都有提到，包括相關的金融陷阱、未來對於自己的職涯規劃或是金融詐騙，甚至於誤觸投資陷阱，其實都是跟無法抵擋金融風險非常相關的，所以如果本席提出青年基本法要加入有關於提升金融教育，不只是走進家庭、學校，甚至到日常生活中，主委可不可以給予支持？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會當然支持。"],["林委員楚茵：好，那麼在這個部分，因為您支持，所以我們要負擔起的就是相關的責任。","我們來看下一個，我們都知道提升國民的金融素養，過去對金管會來說是非常重要的一個部分，不然不會有金融研訓院等等，但是根據金融生活的普查，我們會發現不只是年輕人，包括一般的民眾，居然高達78.1%，他們的金融素質是屬於低或極低的。","那麼我們都知道，我們一直在推所謂的ESG，可是本席過去4年在財委會常常質疑，這個永續金融的報告都流於作文比賽，然後大家只在乎E，不是E不重要，但是流於形式就會變成什麼？撿垃圾、辦園遊會、吃素。我認為大家對E的概念已經到一定的水準之上，但是對於金融生活這個金融素養的提升，我想問主委或是莊部長，莊部長有請，我們可不可以在永續金融的評鑑指標上面來做一些進步？比如說金融業怎麼樣提升國民的金融素養，公股行庫怎麼帶頭來做金融扎根。","我們知道這個ESG是分分秒秒，不論是上市櫃公司或是金融產業都希望能提高分數，每加一分都非常不容易，所以我想請問莊部長跟彭主委，有沒有可能在金融評鑑上面多加入，把S2的普惠金融實踐能夠具體化？比如說向下扎根，或者是金融從業人員當中，你有辦法去做一些協助呢？我先請彭主委，再請莊部長來回應。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想金管會過去對金融普及做了非常非常多，當然還有待努力啦！這部分我們可以來研究。"],["林委員楚茵：好，部長呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。其實金管會在去年底已經有發布一個「金融知識普及工作第七期推動計畫」，是113年到115年，這個部分就是要擴大金融機構去參與金融教育，這個要走入社區、走入校園，讓我們的學生也好，讓我們一般的民眾都能夠有金融的知識、常識以及涵養，那公股金融事業也都配合這樣的一個計畫，無償的派員去當種子教師，提供一些正確的金融知識。我想這個部分，我們的公股金融事業一直在做，也是善盡一個企業的社會責任。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我想要問主委，我知道立委都質詢了，你們也都會正面肯定，我就問主委，永續金融評鑑這個評鑑指標，你知道是哪些單位訂定出來的嗎？我來告訴你好了，金融研訓院、保發中心、證基會會有一個初版，初步的草稿，然後再由金管會的代表跟外部的學者來做評比，我只想問，像這種永續金融的評鑑指標，有沒有可能重新去做一些定義或增加，針對普惠金融或是金融素質的提升，給予他們一個指標，讓他們有一個方向？因為你只要目標設定正確，這個部分就可以達到。","本席提出來這個，其實我是認為現在有這麼多的金融陷阱、金融詐騙，或者是金融小白對於投資理財的不瞭解，就是因為金融素質的提升不夠，所以我想問主委，有沒有可能在永續金融評鑑當中做一些修正？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛剛也有提到，我是支持這個部分，當然在相關的指標，我有跟大家報告，我們隨時會滾動需求，這部分我們會開始來研議。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為每一年、每一年都有評鑑，那麼剛剛我也讓您知道了，其實這幾個單位當中，金管會都是上級的指導機關，所以我希望金管會跟財政部針對公股行庫可以如何來推動有關於金融素質的提升，可以做哪些協助，是不是可以在各個分行或者是有什麼樣的方式來處理，我希望有一份報告。那麼有關於金融素質的提升，包括永續金融評鑑的指標怎麼樣做精進，我也希望金管會在瞭解之後可以給我一份報告，也交給我們財政委員會，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有問題。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為主席已經站起來了，其他的題目我下次再問，但是這個部分非常重要，我希望我在修法的時候能夠獲得主委跟財政部的支持，好嗎？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢。","接著請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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所以我想要問主委我知道你們一定都會立委都質詢了也都會正面肯定我就問 主委金融永續金融評鑑的這個評鑑指標你知道是哪些單位來訂定出來的嗎"},{"start":279.135,"end":300.769,"text":"好 我來告訴你好了金融研訓院、保發中心、政經會會有一個初版初步的草稿然後呢再由金管會的代表跟外部的學者來做評比我只想問那像這種永續金融的評鑑的指標有沒有可能去重新的去做一些定義或增加讓"},{"start":302.23,"end":327.187,"text":"普惠金融或是金融素質的提升給予他們一個指標讓他們有一個方向因為你只要目標設定正確這個部分就可以達到本席提出來這個其實我是認為有現在這麼多的金融陷阱金融詐騙又或者是對於投資理財的金融小白的不了解就是因為我們的金融的有關於素質的提升不夠"},{"start":328.628,"end":332.994,"text":"主委有沒有可能在永續金融評鑑當中做一些修正?"},{"start":344.841,"end":364.067,"text":"好因為每一年每一年都有評鑑那麼剛剛我也讓您知道了其實這幾個單位當中金管會都是上級的指導機關所以我希望金管會跟財政部公股行庫可以如何來推動有關於金融素質的提升可以做哪些協助是不是可以在"},{"start":365.107,"end":380.522,"text":"各個分行或者是有什麼樣的方式可以處理我希望有一份報告那麼有關於金融素質的提升包括永續金融評鑑的指標怎麼樣做精進我也希望金管會在了解之後可以來給我一份報告跟交給我們財政委員會可以嗎"},{"start":381.938,"end":383.579,"text":"謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢接下來我們請邱志偉委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153416","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153416","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebafc1e96efb2a0608b8c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e91374464b1975a5b57293c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:29:26 - 12:37:43","影片長度":"00:08:17","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:29:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:37:43+08:00","duration":497,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-23"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時29分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：謝謝部長，請。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長辛苦了，很高興看見您，感覺充滿希望。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：剛才提到我們有12個邦交國，不知道您是否瞭解其中有哪幾個國家是南島語族國家？"],["林部長佳龍：在太平洋比較南島的就有三個國家─帛琉、馬紹爾群島，還有吐瓦魯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，有四分之一嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對，十二分之三。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，十二分之三、四分之一。您知不知道南島語族國家占多少的人口？"],["林部長佳龍：占多少人口？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：將近四億！"],["林部長佳龍：對，不同的算法，但是範圍大概有三、四億。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：將近四億的話，算多還是少？"],["林部長佳龍：很多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：算很多嗎？所以它其實是我們一個很重要的市場，對不對？部長應該很清楚，以帛琉來講，截至目前，他們跟蘭嶼達悟族那邊語言的相似度還維持在60%，60%很高，這就表示還是能夠通喔！所以我們越來越清楚知道，很多南島國家也承認跟臺灣有關係，甚至都會說是他們的母親；但我們也知道其實有很多南島語族國家對亞洲人是敵視的，他們不太信任，因為他們覺得華人太聰明，在這樣的狀況之下，您同不同意我們臺灣原住民族的族人，非常適合來擔任我們南島國家的外交官？"],["林部長佳龍：很適合啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那您知道有嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：誰？"],["林部長佳龍：就是在蔡總統任內，因為我也是無任所大使，所以我知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有一位無任所大使，可是他真的有到國外去嗎？他有薪水嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對啊！您覺得這個是尊重原住民的作法嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為無任所大使是做這些事項，但也可以做一些……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們能不能有正式的外交官？"],["林部長佳龍：我們看怎麼樣來精進。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們能不能有正式的外交官？"],["林部長佳龍：臺灣的外交官有公務員的考試，特別是外交特考，正式的制度目前就是有它的取才標準。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：正式的制度能不能夠特別的去做？我為什麼這樣講……"],["林部長佳龍：其實我們外交部有七位同仁有原住民背景，表現都很優秀。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，那要拔擢、提拔！"],["林部長佳龍：我特別來看一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要把他們挑出來，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：讓他能夠找到最能發揮的位置，因為有這樣的背景嘛！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我這樣子說的原因是，我們有很多外交的空間，其實是在夾縫中求生存，要找到生機。對我來講，我看到這幾年像原住民族經濟貿易合作協議IPETCA，其實是原民會在2022年的時候發動去加入。臺灣、紐西蘭、加拿大、澳洲這四個國家是創始會員國，也是國際首見的第一個。未來我們樂見有更多國家投入，這也是我們參加簽署的一個很重要協議。我們來看一下，其實在2008年陳水扁總統的時候，曾將尤哈尼派駐斐濟，他是我國第一位原住民的駐外大使，十六年來僅此一位，其他都叫無任所大使。所以，部長您瞭解我的意思吧？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我真的希望您能夠在這個當中，去看到我們國家的機會，這是很重要的。我不要講文化的層面，如果以我們臺灣原住民目前十六族來講，沒有一個族群是無祭不豬！殺豬在我們的婚喪喜慶裡面是很重要的，你再去看帛琉也好，吐瓦魯也好，跟我們一模一樣，他們也都很需要殺豬。其實我們在文化的交流，語言的交流，很重要的一點─他們對臺灣原住民是信任的，他們真的覺得我們是有血緣的，也很願意來跟我們做朋友，所以我在這個地方強烈建議，因為我們的賴總統也有特別的提到重視栽培原住民，特別是外交這一塊，所以我希望我們都能來重視，好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，我們想辦法把它落實，好不好？我真的希望我們正式的原住民外交官能再多一點，可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們再延伸下面一個議題，有關臺紐經濟協定的部分，特別要感謝紐西蘭在FTA當中增加一個原住民專章，為什麼我們覺得很珍貴？因為這是第一個我們能夠跟非邦交國的一個正式經濟協定，部長應該瞭解這個協定是很重要的，對吧？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很正式吧！"],["林部長佳龍：是，很正式！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們覺得很重要。現在本席想要請教一下，陳水扁總統在2002年的時候，有完成簽署原住民族與臺灣政府的一個新夥伴關係再肯認，他有完成協定簽署。你剛才說協定是很正式的，但這些年來，很多人都一直問，也一直說政府在騙我們啦！民進黨都在騙我們啦！簽那個都是假的啦，一點意義都沒有。部長，請問2002年完成的這個協定簽署是國家文件嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是啊。其實原轉會在蔡總統這八年來，落實了很多裡面的規定。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這是一份正式的國家文件對吧？我得要確認，因為好多人都會問我們，而且會揶揄、嘲諷。"],["林部長佳龍：現在是把宣示性，或是這種儀式怎麼樣落實在制度面的保障，這個在原轉會裡面，真的效果也不錯。蔡總統最後一次在開會的時候，賴副總統也在場，他也表達會繼續來推動。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，謝謝部長今天給予我很多的回應，這些回應對我們原住民族來講都非常的珍貴。未來原住民的外交工作、外交人才、外交官的部分，也希望你能夠多多的來提攜。"],["林部長佳龍：我可不可以簡單回應一下委員，我們講臺灣是南島語系，所以我們除了是新南向的國家，也是南島語系的國家，所以這次的業務報告中，我也特別把原住民族的外交列進來。Taiwan can help或Taiwan can lead，其實在原住民這一塊，我們可以帶給他們非常多發展的經驗。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，太重要了。"],["林部長佳龍：所以剛剛有關於經貿的這種……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：要善用。"],["林部長佳龍：對，要善用！其實對這些國家，我們都把他當作自己的同胞一樣來看。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：原住民是臺灣的機會。"],["林部長佳龍：對，沒有錯，而且是我們最能夠走出去，跨越國界的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請李柏毅委員、李柏毅、李柏毅委員不在。","請陳培瑜、陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","今天已登記質詢的委員，除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復的部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.60471875,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.49034375,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.94596875,"end":5.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.68846875,"end":5.042843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.14409375,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.99159375,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.223468750000002,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.324093750000003,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.96471875,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.96409375,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.01409375,"end":27.098468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.891593750000002,"end":28.364093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.42721875,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.53659375,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.98346875,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.439093750000005,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.69221875,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.805968750000005,"end":38.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.556593750000005,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.91034375,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.37846875,"end":45.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.49221875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.470968750000004,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.87971875,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.82471875,"end":53.440343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.47409375,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.284093750000004,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.06034375,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.48221875,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.532218750000006,"end":65.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.612218750000004,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.43846875,"end":69.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.64034375,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.14596875000001,"end":75.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.71534375,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.98534375,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.07784375,"end":78.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.21284375,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.03971875,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.03534375000001,"end":82.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.68471875,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.74346875,"end":87.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.74721875,"end":90.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.61596875000001,"end":90.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.02096875000001,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.54659375,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.86221875000001,"end":111.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.32159375,"end":113.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.19471875,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.92409375000001,"end":117.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.88596875,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.67909375,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.20221875000001,"end":120.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.14284375000001,"end":121.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.75034375000001,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.23534375000001,"end":123.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.80471875,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":130.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.55909375000002,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.11159375,"end":132.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.63846875000002,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.19534375,"end":136.75221875},{"speake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帛琉那馬紹爾群島還有這個土瓦魯對 四分之一嘛是 對十二分之三對 十二分之三 四分之一那您知不知道南島語族國家占多少的人口"},{"start":45.763,"end":72.42,"text":"將近4億?對,不同的算法,但是範圍大概有3、4億。那將近4億的話算多還是少?很多啊。算很多嗎?是。所以它其實是我們很重要的一個市場,對不對?好,那我是這樣子想啦,你應該很清楚,如果以其中帛琉來講,它截至目前,它跟蘭嶼達烏族那邊,語言的相似度還維持在60%,"},{"start":74.841,"end":101.1,"text":"60%很高喔就是表示還是能夠通喔那我們越來越清楚知道說很多的南島國家也承認跟台灣有關係甚至都會說是他們的母親那我也知道其實有很多的南島語族的國家他其實對亞洲人是敵視的他不太信任因為他覺得華人太聰明"},{"start":102.665,"end":122.274,"text":"所以如果在這樣的狀況之下您同不同意我們臺灣原住民族的族人非常適合來擔任我們南島國家的外交官很適合啊很適合嘛那您知道有嗎有啊誰"},{"start":124.861,"end":135.664,"text":"就是到,因為是蔡總統任內嘛,因為我也是無人鎖大使,所以我知道。 有一位無人鎖大使嘛,可是他真的有到國外去嗎?他有薪水嗎?"},{"start":135.664,"end":141.806,"text":"沒有。 對啊。那您覺得這個是尊重原住民的做法嗎?"},{"start":141.806,"end":148.768,"text":"因為無人鎖大使是住的設計師啊,當然也可以做一些檢討跟看怎麼樣來精進。 那我們能不能有正式的外交官?"},{"start":148.768,"end":150.049,"text":"能不能有正式的外交官?"},{"start":151.794,"end":172.149,"text":"其實台灣的外交官他有公務員的考試特別是外交特考當然這個正式的制度目前就是有他取材的標準那正式的制度能不能夠特別的來去做我為什麼這樣講其實因為原住民的背景的我們的外交部的同仁表現都很優秀對七位那要把著啊"},{"start":173.785,"end":200.943,"text":"提拔我特別來看一下要把他們挑出來好不好讓他能夠找到最能發揮的位置啦因為他有這個背景嘛我這樣子說的原因是其實我們有很多外交的空間其實是在夾縫中求生存要找到生機那對我來講我看到這幾年像這個原住民族經濟貿易合作協議這個IPECA它其實是在2022年的時候"},{"start":203.064,"end":231.301,"text":"原民會發動那去加入臺灣紐西蘭加拿大澳洲這四個國家是創始會員國也是國際首見的第一個那未來當然我們樂見有更多的國家投入但是這是一個我們參加很重要簽署的一個協議可是我們來看一下2008年部長其實有一位叫Yuhani"},{"start":232.148,"end":261.533,"text":"那是陳水扁總統的時候他有把這一位Yuhani派駐斐濟是我國第一位原住民的駐外大使16年來僅此一位其他都叫無任所大使所以部長您了解我的意思我真的是希望說您能不能夠在這個當中去看到我們國家的機會這是很重要的"},{"start":262.713,"end":281.119,"text":"那我當然我不要講文化的層面我舉個例子對我們原住民台灣原住民如果以目前16族來講沒有一個族群是我們可以講無稷不租啊殺豬對我們的婚喪喜慶是很重要的可是你去看這些帛琉也好土法魯也好跟我們一模一樣"},{"start":282.159,"end":297.234,"text":"他們也是都很需要殺豬所以其實我們在文化的交流語言的交流很重要的是他們對台灣原住民是信任的他們真的覺得我們是有血緣的他們很願意來跟我們做朋友"},{"start":298.035,"end":321.777,"text":"所以我在這個地方真的是強烈的建議因為我們的賴總統他其實也有特別的提到他說重視栽培原住民特別是外交這一塊所以我是希望說我們來重視好不好那部長我們想辦法把它落實好不好我真的是希望我們能夠有正式的原住民外交官再多一點可以嗎"},{"start":324.157,"end":328.502,"text":"接下來我就是想要延伸因為像我們有一個這個叫做我們台紐的經濟協定那特別是很感謝這個紐西蘭他有特別在FTA當中去增加一個原住民專章"},{"start":343.877,"end":365.064,"text":"那這個為什麼我們覺得很珍貴因為這是第一個我們能夠跟非邦交國的一個正式經濟協定所以部長你應該了解這個協定是很重要的對吧對很正式吧是很正式所以我們覺得很重要啊那現在的話我就想要請教一下我們在陳水扁總統的時候2002年他有簽一個"},{"start":369.085,"end":393.581,"text":"原住民族與臺灣政府的一個新夥伴關係在肯認他有完成協定簽署協定簽署你剛才說協定是很正式的協定簽署因為很多人這些年都一直問說政府在騙我們民進黨都在騙我們簽那個都是假的一點意義都沒有部長請問這個2002年完成的這個協定簽署他是國家文件嗎"},{"start":401.647,"end":411.792,"text":"現在原轉會其實在蔡總統這8年來是落實了很多裡面的規定所以部長這個是一份正式的國家文件對吧因為我要確認這件因為好多人都會問我們而且都會揶揄都會嘲諷"},{"start":420.014,"end":434.421,"text":"先是把宣誓性或是說這種儀式怎麼樣落實為在制度面的保障這個是在原轉會裡面其實真的效果也不錯然後蔡總統當時最後一次開會的時候賴副總統也在場他也表達會繼續來推動"},{"start":437.483,"end":455.319,"text":"好,那我想說謝謝部長您今天給予我很多的回應那這些回應對我們原住民族來講都非常的珍貴那謝謝您,未來呢,原住民的外交工作還有外交人才、外交官希望你能夠多多的來提攜"},{"start":456.62,"end":480.631,"text":"我可不可以簡單回應一下委員其實臺灣我們講臺灣是南島語系所以我們除了是西南向的國家也是南島語系的國家所以我在這次業務報告我有特別把原住民族的外交有列進來那臺灣就是說can help或臺灣can lead其實在原住民這一塊我們可以帶來他們非常多發展的經驗所以剛剛有關於經貿的這種包括要善用"},{"start":484.113,"end":484.253,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153415","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153415","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba6a822a6a68ef04291766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:28:24 - 12:36:32","影片長度":"00:08:08","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:28:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:36:32+08:00","duration":488,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":823,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時28分）謝謝主席，有請劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，我想跟你請教一下，現在我們看到很多的企業，包括台積電、聯電及鴻海，他們都宣示要加入RE100，所以加入RE100的臺灣企業可以說是愈來愈多，甚至有些企業還自我要求，包括台積電本來預計是2050年達到RE100，它說要提早10年，如果以這樣來說的話，為什麼這些企業都要積極的進入RE100的自我要求呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的前公司也是RE100的企業，主要都是基於企業社會責任，第二個是大家認為對於地球暖化必須扮演重要的責任，所以大家就加入。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以大家會加入。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：請教主委，RE100所包括的其中一個是承諾100%使用再生能源，這個再生能源到底包不包括核電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：再生能源不包括核電。"],["蔡委員易餘：再生能源不包括核電，也就是這些企業未來使用的電就是不使用核電，他們會100%使用再生能源，再生能源不包括核電，也不包括火力發電。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也不包括部分的水力發電，只要水力不能抽蓄回來，它也不是再生。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，抽蓄，就是那個水力發電。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：抽蓄的就可以，因為水可以再抽上來，沒有抽上來的、流掉的也不是再生，風力、太陽能都屬於再生。"],["蔡委員易餘：以這樣的定義來說，事實上我們這幾年來努力推動的包括風力、太陽能正是RE100所需要的能源，是這樣嗎？沒有錯吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：台積電等好多企業未來要用的電如果要達到RE100，就是要百分之百使用太陽能或是風電，或是其他更新、更環保的能源出來，沒有錯吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這是第一個。第二個，現在歐盟已經陸續把核電認為是綠電的一種。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，還沒有，它是要得到最終貯存的才可以提出來，目前還沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：前提就是要有最終貯存。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它只是有機會，還沒有……"],["蔡委員易餘：當核電有最終的貯存，才有辦法進入到綠電。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：它有這個前提在這邊，以目前臺灣整體大小、人口密度，我們有辦法找到一個適當的最終貯存地點嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我不是那麼理解，可能要再問……"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，這個可以理解，當我們沒有辦法處理，因為最終貯存也不可以到國外，必須在國內，要在國內。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前我們只能做乾式貯存，還沒有到。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們目前都是乾式貯存，沒有一個地方是最終貯存。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且乾式貯存還沒有解決全部。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以在這個前提之下，我們的核電也沒辦法進入歐盟成為它認為已經有最終貯存的核電，有辦法最終把這個東西處理得比較好。所以看起來臺灣目前的核電，除非又有更先進的核融合的技術產生，不然以現在這樣的核電，沒有辦法最終貯存的話，基本上就不符合歐盟定義的綠電，也不屬於RE100要求企業要使用100%再生能源的電力，沒有錯吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：以這樣的前提之下，我覺得臺灣整個用電的發展，目前走的這條路就是正確的，主委？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得我們要對自己的腳步有信心，很多事業的發展，風電、綠電的發展也許在開發的過程中，有些生意人用了比較不乾淨的手段，必須要被繩之以法，我們都主張這要嚴辦，他如果用不乾淨的手段取得發電的資格，這個要辦，要把他發電的資格拿回來，我們都支持。但是你不能因為這幾個老鼠屎，就說以後我們都不要吃粥了，以後我都不吃粥，因為吃粥可能就會有老鼠屎，怎麼可以變這樣呢？所以我覺得我們產業的用電政策還是要抓緊方向，不能夠一直調整、一直調整，然後又找不到最好的方法，這反而是讓我們好不容易跨出的這一步，而且已經走到再生能源比例一直在攀高的時候，我們反而說這樣起來是不對的，不能這樣，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個就是我想跟主委聊一下，畢竟國發會於國家而言像是開車時你是掌握方向盤的，整個方向是由主委來訂定。我一直覺得臺灣有一個單位特別保守，就是食藥署。食藥署的保守在於，先不說是藥品還是保健食品，這都由他們未來去定義，可是我們看到臺灣很多人會到國外去買藥品回來，包括現在有很多人說，我們先不要說療效，就像褪黑激素、像現在很有名的NMN（β-煙醯胺單核苷酸）療法，好多人會去國外買回來，為什麼呢？因為食藥署不允許在國內銷售，又因為不允許在國內銷售，就創造很多騙局，主委可以去網路google一下，你打NMN這3個字，就會出現NMN騙局。這個騙局是怎樣？因為臺灣沒辦法合法銷售，所以有很多不肖廠商，也不知道裡面的成分有沒有，但是標籤就這樣貼上去，便有很多人趨之若鶩，因為這個東西要去國外買回來，如果是水貨回來再轉手賣都好貴，很多人趨之若鶩說好棒，有這種可以買到又比較便宜的，我去跟他買，結果後來發現療效又沒有符合應該要有的標準，食藥署把很多東西一些比較先進的、科學的一些技術都拒之千里之外，不讓它進來，後來就會變成有一些不肖廠商，反而是對人民不利，但是食藥署這個門就是一直關著，我不知道為什麼要這樣關。","主委，你大概簡單講一下我剛剛講的這幾個，我覺得你都可以去查看看。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們會去檢核並請食藥署回復給委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這個應該是可以去討論一下，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：謝謝。","現在請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在現場。","報告委員會，發言登記的委員除了不在場之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。林岱樺委員、陳冠廷委員所提的書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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的前提之下我覺得我們台灣的整個用電的發展目前走的這條路就是正確的"},{"start":264.341,"end":286.416,"text":"主委,我是覺得我們要對大家的腳步,我們要有信心。我們不能說大家,就是說很多事業的發展,你說風電、綠電的發展,也許在開發的過程中,有些生意人他已經用了一些比較不乾淨的手段,然後他必須要被繩之以法。這個我們都主張,這個要研辦。"},{"start":288.086,"end":297.531,"text":"他用不乾淨的手段去取得到發電的資格,這要他頒,這要他發電資格,要他拿回去,這我們都支持啊。但是你不能因為這幾個老鼠屎,你知道我們整個醫療都沒得吃嗎?"},{"start":306.752,"end":307.212,"text":"議員：蔡易餘：蔡易餘："},{"start":337.548,"end":339.249,"text":"我一直覺得台灣有一個單位特別保守就是食藥署"},{"start":360.698,"end":389.587,"text":"十二屬的保守就是說事實上我們看到有好多齁所謂我們先不要說是藥品還是保健食品這些都讓他們未來去定義可是我們看到台灣人很多會到國外去買藥品回來包括說現在有很多人說因為不要說療效我們就說像退黑激素像現在有很有名的叫做NNN這個叫做什麼燕瘤這名字我不會念NNN療法喔好多人去國外買"},{"start":391.349,"end":401.261,"text":"去國外然後去買回來為什麼呢?就是我們食藥署不允許在國內銷售那又因為不允許在國內銷售就創造了很多騙局"},{"start":403.421,"end":429.771,"text":"你只要主委你可以去網路你去google一下你打這三個字NNN他就會出現的叫做NNN騙局這個騙局是怎樣?因為台灣沒辦法合法銷售所以就有很多不肖的廠商他就在裡面的身份有沒有也沒有但是他就那個標籤在你logo這樣打起來就很多人趨之若鶩因為這個東西現在要去國外買回來然後如果水貨回來再轉手賣都好貴"},{"start":432.582,"end":458.324,"text":"就好多人會趨之若鶩說好有這種可以買的比較便宜我去買結果後來發現說他的療效又沒有符合應該要有的標準就變成說我們的食藥署把很多東西聚資一些比較先進的一些科學的一些技術我們都把他聚資千里之外都不讓他進來然後後來就會變成說有一些不孝的廠商"},{"start":459.448,"end":459.468,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba1708d437af7f3ce5cb22e1ce6086f58b446d6a815e91374463ac7a6a43004f445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:24:37 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Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:24:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:31:35+08:00","duration":418,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1287,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時24分）謝謝召委，我們有請主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["林委員倩綺：主委，首先恭喜你，期待您能以過去推動原住民事務的精神，繼續在未來幾年您在原民會就任、在職的情況下，幫原住民族的業務能夠更上一層。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：第一個，我們知道前一段時間，就是在這個會期，我們修正通過姓名條例，讓原住民可以使用原住民文字單列為名字，有了這樣一個政策，所以我這邊要談的是，請原民會落實整個推動原住民族登記傳統名字便民措施3年計畫，而這個部分應該先感謝我們的召委高金委員還有鄭天財委員，在我們整個姓名條例裡面，把這30年來的一個推動，終於在這個會期給完成了，這真的是歷史上一個很重要的篇章。","接下來就是怎麼樣落實的部分，然後讓我們所有的族人都能夠以此為傲。就這個部分，會裡面也編了相關的經費，把它作為一個很重要的業務在推動，所以我們期待這個部分的落實。我相信你們要推動的部分，包括除了有效整合跨機關規費、登記便民服務措施以外，第一線人員的訓練也是非常重要的，不只在原鄉，包括今天下午我們要關注的都會原住民，所以可能就要注意到在原鄉的部分還有在都會裡面，相關第一線人員怎麼去處理、因應這個姓名條例修正通過之後所發生的一些狀況。","另外，你們也針對這件事情編了一些行銷的費用，這個費用怎麼去真正落實，包括每一年增加這個比例，也就是在增加族名的登記上，能夠讓這樣一個很好的政策在推動上，讓大家在登記上不會因為一些困難，然後把這樣一個美意變成一個擾民的措施，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們要怎麼樣確實做到跟考試院、國防部、教育部、衛生福利部跟行政院公共工程委員會等各機關之間的整合？而且這還算是公部門，民營的部門，大概未來還有一些困難，這個部分裡面，其實是有一些沉默的成本，所以期待原民會在這個區塊能夠更落實。假設真的有困難，需要本席這邊來協助的話，本席非常願意作為一個平臺，然後讓大家可以來彼此溝通、瞭解。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：這個3年3,000萬用於整合服務的行銷費用，請真的要用於這件事情上，不要變成其他一些奇怪的行銷費用。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分是會裡面應該要注意的，過去發生的事情，我這邊也就不多說了。我有一個建議，這個3年3,000萬的計畫，在懶人包的製作上，應該要非常的詳實，還有工作指南這兩個部分，相信對於傳統名字登記的比例，應該會有一些上升，所以你們應該可以設定每一年有一個比例值。還有在這個過程當中，我們會講到各族的命名、語言的脈絡，這個部分也應該讓大家知曉，我們當然知道有一些個別性的問題，但是這個命名、脈絡對一個文化來講是非常重要的，所以我期待在行銷的內容上也能夠做得更詳實。還有，包括其他各部會也會支援部落跟鄉鎮區公所的一個戶政單位的接駁，屆時也不要忘記都會原住民，都會原住民應該是接下來我們必須要非常關注的一塊。好，這是我針對已經有這麼多的前輩在我們原住民事務上所做的這樣一個政策的法令，幫我們在未來的推動上所做的這些努力，我們不應該辜負他們所做的一切。","接下來我要談的是原住民族博物館，我們知道原住民族博物館原本是核定在新北市，後來莫名其妙的，連民進黨的委員都覺得是笑話一樁，那是蔡總統8年前已經該做的跟要做的，結果莫名其妙地從新北又挪到了高雄，而且這8年我完全不知道進度，然後對族人或者是對我們社會大眾也沒有任何的說明，至今我們只知道沒有原住民族博物館。8年過去了，我不知道我們還要等幾個8年，所以我特別期待主委，希望在您任內至少我們有一個發聲、具有文化性的平臺能夠完成。","第三個部分，關於原住民族委員會的原住民族文化發展中心，其實就是以前的文化園區，我也經常帶人去參觀。我們知道裡面有一個樂舞團體，業務報告第3頁裡面很自豪地提到，這是全國唯一的公設原住民族表演藝術團隊──娜麓灣樂舞劇團，因此，會裡面是不是可以考量，既然我們文化在流失，我們怎麼樣在這個世代，透過這樣的機制，讓各個族群都有機會留下樂舞文化，講得更直白一點，這樣一個公設的樂舞表演團隊，不應該只有在過去我們所稱的原住民族文化中心，而是進而讓它成為一個發展的中心，所以應該在這個區塊有更積極的作為。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，民間也有……"],["林委員倩綺：那是民間啊！這邊是公設啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對！對！"],["林委員倩綺：公設當然是不一樣的，所以最後連帶的就是文化資產，尤其原住民族的無形文化資產，會裡面應該要有更積極的作為。以上四個主題，可否請主委在一個月內對我提出比較專業性的報告？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["林委員倩綺：然後也請會裡面相關的部門來跟我做業務報告，就上述這四個主題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好的。"],["林委員倩綺：OK，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢，謝謝主委。","登記發言的委員，除了不在場者之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束；委員丁學忠、張智倫、黃建賓所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復的部分，請相關單位在一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.097843750000001,"end":6.578468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.16909375,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.39096875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.90471875,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.91659375,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.53659375,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.772843750000003,"end":32.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.768468750000004,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.54721875,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.31909375,"end":47.635343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.80409375,"end":48.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.66034375,"end":56.494718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.95034375,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.85471875,"end":93.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.34971875000001,"end":109.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.80284375000001,"end":112.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.68846875000001,"end":116.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.19409375000001,"end":147.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.65346875,"end":151.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.59784375,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.25534375,"end":169.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.55284375000002,"end":185.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.92596875,"end":191.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.07784375,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.76471875000001,"end":192.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.64221875,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.35471875000002,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.31596875000002,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.99909375000001,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.02721875,"end":219.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.50284375,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.59096875,"end":226.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.45971875,"end":232.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.80471875,"end":235.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.82534375,"end":237.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.91784375,"end":238.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.68971875000003,"end":240.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.90471875000003,"end":247.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.73909375000002,"end":248.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.56596875000002,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.94971875000002,"end":251.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.07596875000002,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.84346875000003,"end":255.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.55221875,"end":262.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.44971875000005,"end":271.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.53284375000004,"end":275.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.17346875000004,"end":276.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.27034375,"end":283.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.83471875000004,"end":286.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.32784375,"end":290.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.14159375,"end":292.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.14971875000003,"end":296.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.60909375,"end":298.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.66784375000003,"end":313.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.22659375,"end":323.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.28409375,"end":326.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.53659375,"end":336.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.48034375000003,"end":346.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.12034375,"end":350.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.54159375,"end":351.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.49909375000004,"end":355.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.70534375,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.62909375000004,"end":358.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.40534375000004,"end":361.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.67034375000003,"end":372.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.81221875,"end":381.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.06409375000004,"end":400.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.37596875,"end":384.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.58659375,"end":386.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.97471875,"end":387.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.91346875000005,"end":404.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.23784375,"end":408.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.19534375,"end":406.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.97971875,"end":411.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.57846875,"end":413.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.03409375,"end":413.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.88596875,"end":417.80534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.29,"end":8.152,"text":"主委,首先恭喜你期待您在過去在原住民事務的推動下能夠將這樣的精神繼續在未來幾年您在原民會的整個就任的情況在在職的情況下能夠幫原住民族的業務更上一層"},{"start":32.773,"end":34.254,"text":"請原民會落實整個推動原住民族登記傳統名字變名措施的三年計劃。"},{"start":57.037,"end":74.02,"text":"我們先感謝我們的昭緯高金委員還有鄭天財委員在我們的整個姓名條例裡面把這30年的一個推動終於在這個會期給完成了那這個真的是歷史上很重要的一個篇章"},{"start":74.941,"end":75.181,"text":"主席"},{"start":94.637,"end":120.755,"text":"有效整合各機關規範及登記辨名措施以外第一線人員的訓練也是非常重要的不只在原鄉包括今天下午我們要關注的都會原住民這個部分您可能要注意到在原鄉的部分跟在都會裡面第一線的人員怎麼去處理來因應姓名條例通過之後所會發生的一個狀況"},{"start":121.796,"end":145.816,"text":"此外當然您也編了一些對於這件事情的一些行銷的這個費用那這個費用怎麼去真正的落實讓用每一年增加的這個比例也就是說能增加在這個族民上能夠在我們這樣一個很好的政策的推動讓大家能夠登記上不會因為困難而又"},{"start":147.717,"end":151.559,"text":"與國防部、教育部、衛生福利部及行政院公共工程委員會各機關之間的整合,這還算公部門。民營的這個部門大概未來還有一些困難。"},{"start":167.768,"end":167.968,"text":"議員負責負責"},{"start":196.923,"end":219.749,"text":"行銷費用是會裡面應該要注意的在過去發生的事情我這邊也就不多說了我一個建議就是這個三年的三千萬計劃應該在懶人包的製作要非常的詳實工作指南這兩個部分對於傳統名字的這個比例應該會有一些上升所以你應該可以設定每一年的一個比例值"},{"start":220.569,"end":220.809,"text":"〔主席發言〕"},{"start":241.823,"end":253.673,"text":"其他各部會也會支援這個部落跟鄉鎮區公所的一個互證單位的接駁也不要忘記都會原住民都會原住民應該是我們接下來必須要非常關注的這一塊"},{"start":255.61,"end":256.53,"text":"原住民民族博物館"},{"start":277.321,"end":296.116,"text":"原住民族博物館我們知道已經在原本是合併在新北市然後後來莫名其妙的連民進黨的委員都覺得是笑話一樁那是在蔡總統八年前已經該做的跟要做的結果莫名其妙的從新北又挪到了高雄"},{"start":297.437,"end":322.494,"text":"但是這八年我完全不知道進度然後對族人或者是我們的社會大眾也沒有任何的說明那至今我們只知道沒有原住民族博物館八年過去了那我不知道我們還要等幾個八年所以這邊我特別跟主委這邊期待希望在您任內那至少我們有一個發聲的具有文化性的一個平台能夠完成"},{"start":324.92,"end":351.454,"text":"第三個部分是在原住民族委員會的原住民族文化發展中心其實就是我們知道的以前的園區嘛我經常也帶人去參觀那我們知道裡面有這個樂舞團體這邊很自豪的在第三頁的業務報告裡面講到這是全國唯一的公社原住民族表演藝術團隊那魯灣樂舞劇團那會裡面是不是應該考量既然我們文化"},{"start":352.54,"end":379.108,"text":"在流失我們怎麼樣在這個世代透過這樣的機制讓各個族群都有機會留下樂舞文化那我要如果再講更直白一點那這樣一個公設的樂舞表演團隊不應該只有在我們過去所稱的原住民族文化重心而是竟然它成為一個發展的中心那應該在這個區塊有更積極的作為"},{"start":382.613,"end":409.494,"text":"民間也有只是沒有了這邊是民間這邊是公社公社當然是不一樣的所以最後連帶的就是文化資產尤其原住民族的無形文化資產那應該在會裡面要有更積極的作為所以以上幾點以上四個主題可否請主委這邊在一個月內對我提出比較專業性的報告然後也請會裡面相關的部門來跟我做業務報告這四個主題"},{"start":412.419,"end":413.181,"text":"林倩綺委員"}]}},{"id":"153413","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153413","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba73957b745b04a4648c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e9137447e402dd021e2a3415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:20:44 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Tahovecahe委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3472187500000001,"end":5.650343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0222187500000004,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.4734687500000003,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.81909375,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.337843750000001,"end":8.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.974093750000002,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.20534375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.95596875,"end":24.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.360343750000002,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.38534375,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.566593750000003,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.96096875,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":50.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.111593750000004,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.93409375,"end":56.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.237218750000004,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.35784375,"end":70.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.12971875000001,"end":70.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.21409375,"end":94.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.35909375,"end":89.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.08784375,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.72034375000001,"end":115.42221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.82284375,"end":120.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.19346875000001,"end":133.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.66409375,"end":135.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.21221875,"end":137.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.16971875000002,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.37596875,"end":143.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.21096875,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.97034375,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.46784375000001,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.35784375,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.85534375,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.76596875,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.47409375,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.95909375000002,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.25409375,"end":166.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.80659375000002,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.92471875,"end":169.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.01284375,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.85659375,"end":181.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.26096875000002,"end":176.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.30721875,"end":176.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.22659375,"end":184.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.49159375000002,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.64346875,"end":218.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.87846875000002,"end":220.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.40159375000002,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.67471875,"end":230.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.65346875,"end":229.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.04971875,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.74471875,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.97659375,"end":240.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.21284375000002,"end":240.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.34346875000003,"end":241.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.86659375000002,"end":249.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":250.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.60346875000002,"end":276.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.21971875,"end":284.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.60659375,"end":287.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.10409375,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.16284375000004,"end":315.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.47971875,"end":317.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.3653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打壓所以他們秘書處在處理這些事情上面當然還沒辦法做突破可是我覺得最近對於2758號決議就聯大這個決議我想也是一個很重要的攻防"},{"start":379.969,"end":402.459,"text":"因為中共企圖用所謂的聯大2758號決議去等同於一中原則可是包括美國跟很多的民主國家認為這個並無涉台灣的參與所以也支持台灣來申請加入包括RKO WHO UNFCCC 另外是 INTERPOL"},{"start":402.979,"end":428.416,"text":"這四個最重要的就是它是一個國際性的一個組織部長你談到這裡這個台灣人的精神台灣人的勇敢你一定要往前走你要看WHA政府還是帶領我們三黨各排一位跟著部長一起我們是不放棄任何的機會這個跨黨派一起走出去這也是很令人感動的這個部分本期還是希望新政府新氣象新部長有新作為本期還是期待之繼續加油"},{"start":430.057,"end":452.051,"text":"最後一個議題本席要請教外交是內政的延伸這是您的方向那之前的吳前部長他在他的推特裡頭他也說了媒體封他是一個戰狼部長那你認為他自己也認可說魔法部的"},{"start":453.052,"end":456.054,"text":"他隨時會用他的署名JW在外交部的帳號發言親上火箭槍俠,您會延續這樣的方式嗎?"},{"start":476.121,"end":476.261,"text":"臺灣加油!"}]}},{"id":"153412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba8e98704494bafccc1766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744bbbba23be64eeb1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:18:14 - 12:28:13","影片長度":"00:09:59","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:18:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:28:13+08:00","duration":599,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":802,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時18分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：好，請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：張委員午安。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你第一次來，先給你加油、幫你打氣。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：感謝！"],["張委員啓楷：你是AI專家，產業界風評不錯啦！我今天聽你的簡報，夠水準！是值得期許的國發會主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：不過，我要提醒，不要被那些背離事實、危言聳聽，甚至邏輯不通的話，特別是政治語言的影響。大家想像一個畫面，現在113位立委當中，有誰敢刺探台積電的商業機密、核心價值？台積電是我們的護國神山啊！我們疼愛它都來不及了，怎麼會有立委說：「我們去刺探。把台積電找來，刺探它的商業機密，刺探它核心的技術。」哪有這種立委！他一定被罷免嘛！對不對？這個政黨要被唾棄嘛！所以，主委，以後如果有立委問你政治性的語言，你不要隨便點頭哦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["張委員啓楷：剛才邱議瑩委員提到立法院職權行使法第五十九條之五，他說這個是侵犯人權，事實是什麼？立法院職權行使法第五十九條之五說的是什麼？出席人員有下列情形者，可以拒絕證言，或是可以根本不要講話、不要表達意見，有下面四項，第一個，涉及到國家安全、國防及外交之國家機密事項；第二個，如果是辦聽證會，你來出席，逾越了聽證會調查之目的所提出之詰問或對質，你可以拒絕證言，也可以不要表達意見；第三個，依照行政訴訟法規定可以拒絕的事項；第四個最重要，涉及受到法律明定保護之個人隱私或其他秘密事項。這四個不就是在保障個人跟企業嗎？台積電首先不會被找來，就算找來，所有的企業跟個人都受到保障，這就是邱議瑩說的第五十九條之五的真相。","第二個來看第五十九條之一，什麼東西都要講給立委聽嗎？No！有侵犯人權嗎？尤其是涉及外交跟國防或者其他法令應遵守秘密的，要開什麼？秘密會議耶！秘密會議任何人在這邊，包括立法委員，如果洩密是要法辦的。聽證會一定要公開嗎？也No，不是喔！如果有以下條件要開聽證會可以不公開，用秘密的方式來做聽證：第一個，如果牽涉到個人隱私，遭受到不當的侵害之虞；第二個，個人的生命、身體或其他自由遭受到威脅；第三個最重要，就是在說台積電或者任何企業被邀請來立法院，我先強調平常立法院要邀企業來，幾乎是非常非常不可能的，所以牽涉到的一定是非常大的公眾利益，台積電沒有犯法的情況下，為什麼會找台積電來呢？我們統計了第四屆到第十屆所有的調查委員會，第四屆到第十屆，每一屆的立委任期四年，才辦4次的調查委員會，等於幾年才1次，很嚴格，而且有這麼多的規定。你看這個條文的第三項，有牽扯到營業秘密遭受到不當侵害之虞，你可以不要講話，而且是開秘密會議，所以台積電的know-how怎麼會流出去呢？","剛剛邱議瑩委員又提到一個很嚴重的事情，這個事情歐洲商會已經澄清好幾次了，他引述及轉傳的這個文章原作者方格恩有出來澄清，他說他沒有講過臺灣的國會改革是荒謬，他說這個荒謬的詞是誰講的？民進黨的立法委員候選人林志潔。他特別澄清這不代表他的立場，也不代表歐洲商會的立場，最重要的是後面那句話，他說你引述我的文章，但是我的文章裡面寫得清清楚楚，沒有寫到會影響到跨國企業投資臺灣的意願。主委，你是專業的，大家對你是有期許的，你來這邊當然會碰到一些政治的語言，但是政治的語言你不要隨便點頭，我這樣一路解釋清楚，沒有侵犯到人權、沒有侵犯到企業。而且你看歐洲商會，我們這次的修法很重要，就是跟美國學的，調查權跟聽證會不就是跟美國學、跟歐洲重要的國家學的？包括德國、法國、英國，歐洲的國家怎麼會反對呢？所以對於政治性的語言我們今天把它解釋清楚。","主委，我們來談一下用電的問題，你是AI的專家，未來你想要落實AI產業化，不過現在大家都問一個重要的問題，臺灣的發展除了積極推動AI，還有市區公車電動化、電動車的興起及半導體精密晶片的發展，這些都很耗電，對不對？是不是非常耗電？所以你現在的重責大任是什麼？要供應非常充裕且便宜的電。我知道早上已經很多人問過你核電的事情，我們簡單看一下，這三位從經濟部長到童子賢和上一屆主委龔明鑫都提過，我今天只有問一個最重要的事情，我請教你，連G7七個主要的工業國都講「不再反對核能」，你說你不排斥，可是有3個原則，當然你今天已經解釋很多次了，我最關心的是什麼？AI增加了3成以上的電力，經濟部的處長很專業，他都出來說至少1年要增加3%。但我要問，這是很簡單的數學問題，你要增加3%的用電，你也講AI產業會增加3成，可是今年7月27日核三廠1號機就停了，明年的5月17日又停，3.5%加3.5%共減少7%，這邊的電需要這麼多，然後那邊的電又變少了，怎麼供應充分又便宜的電？怎麼做得到？怎麼做得到？請說。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就台電的說明，台電是有準備機組，但是現在的準備機組還是以天然氣為主。"],["張委員啓楷：天然氣、以肺發電，對不對？尤其臺中就跳起來，一定跳起來嘛。不好意思，我今天比較激動，因為我要澄清很多的真相，這對全民跟對企業都很重要。我有最後一個要求，民進黨政府能夠打破8年這個魔咒，代表他們要承擔更大的責任，現在不能只有台灣民眾黨，像我在經濟委員會，我負責提案要去解決核電廠、核三廠能不能延役的問題，國民黨已經提案了，可是更需要承擔的是誰？執政黨，包括國發會主委。你現在不是只有聽台電講話，我剛剛講這是數學的問題，用電量一直增加，包括AI產業要發展，半導體像台積電一直在擴廠。我是嘉義人，它要來嘉義設廠，我都很高興，問題是電到底夠不夠？所以我提出具體建議，至少這3點要很注意，核電到底要不要用，你們可以考慮，可是相對的至少這3個問題要去解決。","第一個，新北市跟台電的乾式貯存槽爭議，不要擺在那邊，互相踢皮球，中央政府有責任要去處理好。第二個，核能如果要延役，就是你一直在說的會碰到法規問題，需要5年，可是不能等停電、跳電、大停電的時候才來喊來不及，所以你要準備好，這個法令到底有沒有可能解得開？像美國的例子，美國加州就突然發現電是不夠的，它的核電廠本來已經要延了，於是就一邊檢查是安全的，一邊又延用。德國碰到烏俄戰爭的時候也是這樣子，它本來要停了，結果緊急修法，經過安全評估之後又用了一段時間，這個有前例可循，美國加州的例子、德國的例子都可以參考。另外，核能最終處置場的期程與選址，好不好？大家對主委有很高的期待，我期待的不是只有爭執現在的電夠不夠的問題，我覺得至少這3個問題你要去好好解決，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：現在請王美惠委員詢答，王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","現在請徐欣瑩委員詢答，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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邱議員邱委員講到立法院執行刑事法第59條15他說這個是侵犯人權嗎事實是什麼立法院執行刑事法第95條講什麼"},{"start":120.461,"end":147.699,"text":"出席人員有下列情形者你是可以拒絕證言的或者你根本就不要講話你可以不要表達意見有下面四項第一個涉及到國家安全、國防跟外交之國家機密事項第二個如果是辦聽證會你來出席一列的聽證會調查的目的跟所提出的結論或者要對質你可以拒絕證言也可以不要表達意見"},{"start":149.448,"end":174.169,"text":"第三．依照《刑事訴訟法》規定．你可以拒絕的事項．第四．放中了你看．涉及受到法律明定．保障之個人隱私或其他秘密事項這四個不就是在保障個人跟企業嗎臺積電第一個不會被找來啊第一個找來．所有的企業跟個人都受到保障啊這給邱委員講的95條．59條之5的真相"},{"start":178.612,"end":206.961,"text":"第二個我們看看59條之一什麼東西都要講給立委聽嗎?NO有千萬人權嗎尤其是涉及外交跟國防或者其他法令應該遵守秘密的要開什麼?秘密會議耶秘密會議任何人在這邊包括立法院聽到誰他如果洩密是要法辦的聽證會一定要公開嗎?也NO不是喔"},{"start":208.41,"end":228.916,"text":"如果有以下的這個條件要開這個聽證會．他可以不公開用秘密的方式來做聽證．第一,如果牽涉到個人的隱私遭受到不當的侵害之餘．第二,個人的生命或者身體或其他自有遭受到威脅．第三個重點,就是說台積電．或者任何企業,邀請來我們的地方"},{"start":231.121,"end":245.186,"text":"我先強調平常立法院要辦要企業來幾乎是非常非常不可能的所以你牽涉到的是非常大的公眾這個利益台積電沒有犯法為什麼要找台積電來呢我們去統計了第4屆到第10屆所有辦的這個調查委員會"},{"start":251.192,"end":273.568,"text":"從第4屆到第10屆每一屆為信你才辦4次的調查委員會等於1年才一次很嚴格而且有這麼多的規定你看這個條文的第三條有牽扯到營業秘密遭受到不當侵害之餘你可以不要講話而且開秘密會議所以台積電的know-how怎麼會流出去呢"},{"start":277.605,"end":297.623,"text":"好,剛剛邱議員委員提到一個很嚴重的事情這個事情歐洲商務已經澄清了好幾次了嘛他引述了,現在傳的東西這個文章這個文章也作者方格映出來澄清啊他說他沒有講過什麼台灣的國會改革是什麼荒謬他說這個荒謬的詞是誰講的"},{"start":299.761,"end":322.658,"text":"林晉棟：立法院委員：郝酸炎：林智傑他特別澄清這個不代表他的立場也不代表歐洲商會的立場 同時還不會說話他說我的文章 你們引述我的文章我的文章裡面寫得清清楚楚沒有寫到會影響到跨國企業投資台灣的意願所以 主委 你是很壯硬的 大家對你是有期許的"},{"start":324.21,"end":342.375,"text":"您在這邊當然會碰到一些政治的語言可是政治語言你不要隨便點頭我剛剛這樣一路解釋清楚沒有侵犯到人權沒有侵犯到企業而且你看歐洲商會RG我們這次這個修法很重要就跟美國學啊調查權跟聽證會不就是跟美國學跟歐洲重要的國家學啊"},{"start":343.615,"end":369.388,"text":"包括帝國、法國、英國啊。歐洲的國家怎麼會反對呢?所以對於政治性的語言,我們今天把它解釋清楚。好,主委,我們來談一下用電的問題。你是AI的專家啦。你為了理想要落實AI的產業化。但是現在大家都問一個同樣的問題。我們台灣的發電,你看下一張。台灣的發電,你積極要推動的這個AI。"},{"start":374.283,"end":378.492,"text":"市區的公車電動化、電動車的興起、電線、半導體、精密晶片的發展這都很耗電對不對"},{"start":384.625,"end":412.538,"text":"所以你現在的重責大任是什麼?要供應一個非常充裕而且便宜的這個電我知道早上已經很多人問過你核電的事情我們看一下,簡單看一下三位經濟部長到童子賢跟你的上一任鞏明信都提過我們一直跳下來我今天只有問一個最重要的事情我請教你連第7個主要的工業國他都講了不再反對核能我們再往下看"},{"start":415.219,"end":419.1,"text":"你說你不排斥嘛可是有三個原則啦當然你今天已經解釋很多個了"},{"start":420.54,"end":447.545,"text":"我最關心的是什麽?AI又增加了三成以上的這個電力今天連經濟部的處長,那也是很專業嘛對不對?他都出來說嘛,至少一年要增加3%嘛那我要問喔,用這個很簡單的數學問題你要增加3%的這個用電,你要講AI產業增加三成可是我們今年7月27,可是三成1號機就停了明年的517又停了"},{"start":449.621,"end":458.454,"text":"三點五加三點五你這邊的電需要這麼多然後這邊的電又變少了你怎麼去供應充分又是一個便宜的電怎麼做得到"},{"start":464.299,"end":486.593,"text":"台電是有準備機組 但是他現在的準備機組還是以天然氣為主 我就台電的說明以廢發電嘛 對不對 因為台電一定跳起來啊 一定跳起來嘛 所以不好意思 因為今天我比較激動 因為我要澄清很多的真相 這對錢比跟對企業都很重要的 我最後做一個最後的一個要求 來"},{"start":488.71,"end":505.119,"text":"民進黨政府能夠打破八年這個魔咒代表他們要承擔更大的這個責任現在不能只有臺灣民眾黨像我在經濟委員會我不得提案我們要解決核電廠、核三廠能不能營利這個問題國民黨已經提案了可是更需要承擔的是誰執政黨啊包括你國發會的主委"},{"start":507.113,"end":532.83,"text":"你現在不是只有聽台電的講話或是講數學的問題喔你用電量一直在增加對不對包括AI的產業要發展半導體你看台積電一直在新的拓展嘛對不對像我家裡人他要來嘉義設廠我都很高興啊問題電到底夠不夠所以我做一個具體的建議請你要可能至少這三點要很注意的核電到底要不要用你們可以考慮可是相對的至少這三個目的要轉去改觀"},{"start":533.45,"end":549.157,"text":"第一、新北市跟台電那個干涉雛貞草這個爭議不要擺在那邊互相踢皮球我對中央政府有責任去處理好事第二、核能如果嚴厲就是一直在講的有碰到法規問題要五年嘛可是不能夠等停電"},{"start":550.632,"end":550.832,"text":"美國加州﹗"},{"start":578.319,"end":578.339,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153411","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153411","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebacbffcb416dfb93f04622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374431a3708ee20255e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:19:19 - 12:27:12","影片長度":"00:07:53","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:19:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:27:12+08:00","duration":473,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":910,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時19分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請財政部莊部長和金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請莊部長、彭主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、主委好。根據我們剛通過的藐視國會法，如果你們答詢超過我們詢問的範圍，主席要制止，甚至要罰款，是不是這樣？你們知道嘛？當然主席根據我們的議事規則，如果詢問的人超出範圍，好像主席也要制止。","我們現在來看，還是跟我們的ESG有關啦！「低碳電係臺灣供電解方，促減碳要綠色融資配套」，我們來看一下過去，因為那時候部長跟主委都還沒上任，我當時在財委會質詢過當時的財政部長跟金管會主委，透過金融機構協力引資來落實ESG，以屏東的大潮州人工湖為例，其實在場很多公股行庫的副總有去過，可能現在都當總經理了。透過優惠貸款，我們可以讓政府去投資興建這樣的綠色公共建設，那麼促參的過程當中，也可以讓民間建設來參與，請問主委跟部長都認同這樣的做法嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：認同。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，認同。ESG基本上，我就不再介紹了，這裡面的能源管理跟溫室氣體排放是現在的大宗。","現在臺灣的競爭對手的工業減碳措施跟投資，其實你看到在臺灣，政府有投入，但是在建廠補助跟綠色貸款的部分，目前相較於日本跟新加坡，我們是沒有的。","那麼氣候變遷因應法的子法，碳費三子法它有一個重點，它說我們碳費是經濟誘因，不是財政工具，所以碳費以成本來促進企業碳減量，但是有沒有提供財政方面的誘因來減輕事業的負擔？部長，你覺得有沒有？政府目前有沒有提供？目前。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前財政的誘因啊？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我直接告訴你，我是看不出有啦！主委，你覺得政府有提供相關的誘因嗎？也還沒有啦！","至於其他的國家，歐盟CBAM還有美國的清潔競爭法案，基本上都是針對基礎工業原料，那麼歐盟是透過了一個CBAM的憑證課碳關稅，美國也差不多如此。歐盟在2026已經要實施了，美國還在進行中。","我們看到淨零碳排跟企業發展，臺灣目前，包括中國、日本、韓國、新加坡等貿易對手，70個國家已經實施了碳定價，我再強調一次，碳定價不只是為了淨零碳排，在臺灣，更有我國臺灣出口產品競爭力的差別，是不是部長同意、主委同意？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，歐盟的CBAM大概是這樣，我就不再贅述，那臺灣碳費三子法的部分已經上路了，碳費有待環境部公告。","在美國的部分，有一個很重要的關鍵就是電力使用，在企業生產的時候，使用電力的排碳也會被納入計算。","再往下看，電力來了，最近國發會主委不斷地被問，新聞的標題寫「不排斥重啟核能有3原則」，第一，臺灣的用電，供電夠不夠？第二，最關鍵的，低碳電夠不夠？然後才是2050淨零碳排的目標。請問部長，你知道什麼是低碳電嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該是排碳要比較低的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委也瞭解低碳電？一般我們都把它直接稱為綠電。因為綠電有爭議啊！目前核電算不算綠電？部長，你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：核電算不算綠電，就我瞭解，因為在國外的時候，對於碳排放的足跡它會有一個RE100，但是核電並沒有被納入RE100。"],["鍾委員佳濱：RE不承認核電。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，RE100沒有放進去。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請教彭主委，可是歐盟卻將核電有條件的視為綠電，請問你知道什麼是有條件的綠電嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我知道綠電有條件，我沒有去研究它的條件是什麼。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我這邊就跟大家做分享，其實就是核廢的最終處置場必須跟人類的生活圈永遠隔離，目前最接近的只有芬蘭，之前童子賢董事長一直在提芬蘭的OL3，不是OL3特別便宜或OL3沒有核廢料，純粹是因為它在芬蘭，才有可能核電被採用。","如果綠電的需求持續增加，綠電夠嗎？這裡提到未來AI算力的需求會增加3成以上用電需求，但是1,000度的綠電只有1度是中小企業搶到，請問部長或主委，目前高科技產業或者中小企業的綠電不夠，未來我們繼續成長綠電，你覺得趕得上產業的需求嗎？你覺得目前就你們所知，臺灣的綠電增加。"],["莊部長翠雲：綠電這個部分，我們其實這幾年都一直非常努力在做，如果照國發會主委所說，AI的發展事實上它的用電量可能會更大，那就要看綠電能不能跟得上這樣的成長速度。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼主委你覺得臺灣目前要解決用電問題，核心關鍵是綠電，那綠電的成長趕得上我們的需求嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我同意剛才部長的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。來，簡單講，再生能源憑證這幾年來，從2017年到2022年已經發出了三百五十多萬張，其中指數性的成長，證明過去在風光發電的部分提供了這些綠電憑證成長的基礎，所以結論，臺灣的用電需求終究要靠綠電，用低碳的電力來解決。","但是有一個問題來了，跟今天ESG有關的，就是為什麼中小企業買不到綠電？因為所有的再生能源業者他在發電設備的投資上要向銀行去貸款，銀行團要求這個發電業者販售對象，他賣電給誰，這個對象要有信用評等，必須符合兩項之一，一個是中華信評的評定達到3B或者是A-3以上的，或者過去5年的年用電逾5億度，請問你認為除了台積電等大型企業之外，臺灣的中小企業符合這個標準嗎？我這樣講，你們能夠理解嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼我說綠色融資這麼重要？現在在場的這些公股行庫，這些銀行他們會貸款給誰？給這些再生能源的發電業者，但是發電業者他的客戶，他要賣綠電給誰？這個客戶本身必須年用電逾5億度啊！當然中小企業就搶不到綠電，所以這就是我今天說的，綠色融資的必要。","部長，你回去可以請你們財政部所屬銀行好好地評估一下，有沒有辦法去解套，不然的話，這些投資的風機未來不會賣電給小客戶，他就直接賣給台積電的大客戶，因為這樣他才能取得銀行的融資，可不可以要求你們的公股行庫做這個評估？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那主委呢？你覺得有什麼方法可以解套？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也來評估一下一般的銀行有沒有這樣的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後的結論，因為主席站起來了，請金管會跟財政部擬研議，未來對於企業生產設備的減碳措施提供綠色融資的鼓勵，不管是補貼利息、政府的擔保或者減碳設備的免稅優惠，這個大部分是財政部，請問財政部在相關職權的部分，可不可以給本席跟本委員會一個研究的評估報告？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們來研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概多久可以？我要跟國發會主委講一下，大概多久可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，是不是兩個月？"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以，兩個月接受，謝謝。那麼金管會如果能夠配合的話，也請金管會提供一個指引，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。謝謝主席，謝謝部長，謝謝主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢。","接著請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","接著請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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那我們往下繼續看那美國的部分呢在歐盟的CBAN大概就這樣我就不再贅述那碳執法、碳費執法三個的部分呢已經上路了那碳費呢有在環境部公報那往下看那美國的事情呢有一個很重要的關鍵了"},{"start":187.479,"end":208.173,"text":"電力使用．在生產時使用的電力的排碳有被納入計算．好再往下看．電力來了．最近國安會主委不斷地問說．標題寫不排斥重啓核能有三原則．第一臺灣的用電供電夠不夠．第二最關鍵的低碳電夠不夠．然後才是2050淨零碳排的目標．請問一下部長你知道什麼是低碳電嗎．"},{"start":210.395,"end":223.622,"text":"應該就是那個排碳算是要比較低的主委也是了解低碳一般我們都把它直接稱為綠電我往下看因為綠電有爭議目前核能算不算核電算不算綠電部長你的看法呢"},{"start":224.537,"end":243.656,"text":"合電算不算綠電?那我就了解因為在國外的時候對於這個碳排放的一個足跡裡面它會有一個RE100但是合電裡面它並沒有R1不承認合電那請教主委彭主委那可是歐盟卻將合電有條件的視為綠電請問你知道什麼是有條件的綠電嗎?"},{"start":245.066,"end":268.256,"text":"我知道綠電有條件,我沒有去研究他的條件。OK,那我這邊就跟大家做分享,其實就是核廢的最終處置場必須跟人類的生活圈永遠隔離,目前最接近的只有芬蘭。之前的童子賢董事長一直在提芬蘭的OL3不是OL特別便宜,OL3特別便宜或OL3的沒有核廢掉,純粹是因為他在芬蘭,才有可能核電被採用,往下看。"},{"start":269.036,"end":292.752,"text":"所以如果綠電的需求持續增加,綠電夠嗎?那麼這裡面提到了說未來AI會計算力的需求會增加三成以上用電需求但是一千度的用綠電只有一度是中小企業搶到請問部長或主委目前高科技產業或者中小企業綠電是不夠那未來的需求我們繼續成長綠電你覺得趕得上產業的需求嗎?"},{"start":297.196,"end":297.456,"text":"我同意剛才部長的意見"},{"start":322.878,"end":344.819,"text":"好 很好 那我們現在看來 簡單講 再生能源憑證這幾年2017年到2022年已經發出了350多萬張其中指數性的成長 證明過去在風光發電的部分提供了這些綠電憑證成長的基礎所以結論 臺灣的用電需求 終究要靠綠電用低碳的電力來解決但是 有一個問題來了 就是今天跟ESG有關的下一頁"},{"start":345.76,"end":365.985,"text":"就是說為什麼中小企業買不到綠電因為所有的財政業者他在發電設備的投資上要讓銀行去做貸款銀行團要求這個發電業者呢販售對象他賣電給誰這個對象要有信用平等那必須符合兩項之一一個是中華信憑的評定那麼3B或者是A"},{"start":366.625,"end":366.645,"text":"鍾佳濱議員"},{"start":381.024,"end":397.454,"text":"為什麼我說綠色融資這麼重要?現在在場的工股行鋪這些銀行他們會貸款給誰?給這些再生能源的發電業者但是發電業者他的客戶他賣這個綠電給誰?必須這個客戶本身年用電用度於5億度啊"},{"start":398.835,"end":425.305,"text":"所以當然中小企業搶不到綠電所以這就是我今天說的綠色融資的必要部長你回去可以請你們的財政部所屬銀行好好的評估一下有沒有辦法去解套不然的話未來這些投資的風機他未來的客戶他不會賣給小客戶啊他說直接賣給台積電的大客戶因為這樣才能取得銀行的融資可不可以要求你們的公股行戶做這個評估好那主委呢覺得有什麼方法可以解套"},{"start":426.853,"end":430.417,"text":"我們也來評估一下我們現在一般的銀行在這邊有沒有這樣的規定"},{"start":431.963,"end":460.078,"text":"好 最後的結論主席站起來請金管會跟財政部你研議未來對於企業生產設備的減碳措施提供綠色融資的鼓勵不管是補貼利息、政府的擔保或者減碳設備的免稅優惠請問這個部分大部分是財政部財政部您在這個相關的財政部的持全部分可不可以給本席跟本委員一個研究的一個評估報告我們來研議是那大概可以多久我要跟國防派主委講一下大概多久可以"},{"start":460.498,"end":460.799,"text":"政天台委員"}]}},{"id":"153410","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153410","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba03fdf4a9baaf8b64cb22e1ce6086f58b446d6a815e91374487405cc7a6e4ec875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:14:11 - 12:24:27","影片長度":"00:10:16","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:14:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:24:27+08:00","duration":616,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1239,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時14分）好，謝謝主席。主席請坐，我等一下再請他們上來。"],["主席：好。"],["陳委員瑩：剛才在場的政務官，還有我們所有的公務人員們，要請你們小心了，因為剛剛竟然有立委質詢說沒有接電話叫藐視立委，那沒有回電話，也是叫做藐視立委，我想這種事情拿到這裡來講，實在是藐視國會啊。我認為要得到大家的尊重，真的就是要從自身做起，讓大家從心裡面真正地尊重你，這才叫真正的尊重。所以是不是未來我們在野黨是不是也要再提案，未來如果沒有接到立委的電話，又沒有回電話的話，也要判刑，也要抓去關，也要罰款？首先，我先請一下原語會的董事長。"],["主席：請原語會董事長馬耀‧谷木。謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。董事長，是這樣，因為剛剛盧縣一委員有特別就業務報告的部分，提到書寫的方式，我想在業務報告上面其實也滿清楚的，就是說主委的名字兩個都是大寫，一個是家族的姓氏，一個是名字，是這樣嗎？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：報告委員，後面是父姓。"],["陳委員瑩：父姓？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：父姓。"],["陳委員瑩：好。那這個部分就是都有大寫，所以很清楚，我們可以看到報告人Ljaucu主委的名字就是大寫，剛好是一個滿好的案例。我也想特別提醒一下，因為過去夷將主委在推動族語的時候，我們花很多時間在做口語上的學習，但是在書寫上，我比較沒有印象有聽到我們有在做這個部分，考試或教學就比較少。我們也很疑惑，像我在美國求學寫論文的時候，每一個段落英文字母都要大寫，講到人名、地名、專有名詞的時候，第一個字母也是要大寫，還有標點符號。所以我想請教主委，族語的部分，你們是不是未來也針對書寫方式有一個統一的規則？"],["馬耀．谷木董事長：跟委員報告，基本上，第一個、去年我們已經跟我們相關的16個語推組織達成共識，也跟長期在推動族語的大學院校跟部落達成共識，也在去年頒布初步共識的版本，接著會跟16個語推組織做協調討論，預計在年底提出比較完整的共識版，在目前已經提出了一個參考版，也透過各語推的耆老們，尊重各族群的書寫方法。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我覺得這個很棒，你們真的很不錯。因為書寫的部分在過去確實並沒有加強太多，所以這個部分也希望你們完成之後可以儘快公布，然後讓大家可以熟悉、瞭解一下這個書寫的方式。好，謝謝。請回座。","接下來請社福處羅處長。"],["主席：有請羅處長。"],["羅處長赫踛：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：處長，你們5月28日（星期二）在食藥署針對各族群傳統特色食材之管理原則，邀集相關單位開溝通會議，你清楚這個事吧？"],["羅處長赫踛：瞭解。"],["陳委員瑩：你們誰去開的？"],["羅處長赫踛：是承辦同仁跟我們相關……"],["陳委員瑩：哪一位？"],["羅處長赫踛：是科員跟一個專管助理。"],["陳委員瑩：好。食藥署會開這個溝通會議，主要是因為我們族人常常使用及販售的在地野生傳統食材，雖然對我們而言，這些野菜我們都常見，對我們來說，其實是傳統食材，但是有些在食藥署的食品原料整合查詢平台裡面是完全查不到的，因為查不到，所以就被列為非傳統性的食品原料，族人販售這些食材如果被檢舉了，就會被依違反食安法來裁罰，針對這個問題，我已經多次請食藥署依族群特性來重新檢討相關規定。前天的會議你們有派員去，原民會提供給食藥署的傳統飲食清單總共只有14項，農業部提了137項，我辦公室有詢問原民會這14項是怎麼來的，大家猜猜看怎麼來的？我聽了嚇一跳，你們是依據轉型正義委員會委員提供的清單挑出來的，是轉型正義委員會委員提供的清單嘛？"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告一下，因為轉型正義委員會裡面也在關心這個事情，剛好我們也請過去有瞭解這件事的……"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得你們這樣是便宜行事耶。他們全部都是專家嗎？全部的委員都是耆老嗎？都是很有經驗的嗎？人家送清單給你們之後，你們有主動再去調查其他各個族群嗎？有嗎？"],["羅處長赫踛：我們後續會主動調查。"],["陳委員瑩：就是後續才主動調查？"],["羅處長赫踛：對。"],["陳委員瑩：人家已經要開會，人家動作都很快，結果你們就只拿了那些委員提供的清單，你看下面都有人在搖頭了。"],["羅處長赫踛：我跟委員報告，我們現在有盤點，有516項相關的，但是因為我們第一次跟食藥署合作，我們先提14筆，可以納入可用食品一覽表裡面去做，所以這個合作模式建立起來，我們後續會陸續再提供。"],["陳委員瑩：因為你們14項品項有月桃、荖藤、臺灣胡椒、山肉桂等等，但是阿美族人常吃的芒草心就沒有，所以到底有多少品項已經有在食品原料整合查詢平台，還有多少品項是沒有？你們提供14項真的太少了。另外，依食藥署的規定，非傳統性的食品要納入查詢平台，就是可以做問卷去判定，具有完整的毒理學安全性學術文獻報告，以及成功食用的紀錄要25年，還有28天的餵毒性試驗和基因毒性試驗、90天的餵毒性試驗跟基因毒性試驗、致畸試驗。其實我們原住民族沒有文字，所以要舉證這些食物長久食用的歷史可能有困難，所以才召開這樣子的會議，也就是希望各族群可以提供相關意見，但是你們那個唯一代表你們去開會的人，在整場會議裡面，唯一的回答就是這14項是依照轉型正義委員會那邊來的，我很傻眼，其他意見統統都沒有反映，反而與會的其他人士就提出很多的問題。所以我就提醒你們，你們的原住民族傳統醫療知識復振計畫現在有進行口述歷史的收集，這些口述歷史的收集，除了作為紀錄之外，其實應該有一些是對我們原住民傳統食材要納入查詢平台是有幫助的吧？應該是有吧？"],["羅處長赫踛：有。有記錄一些長者過去的一些傳統……"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以要請你們好好利用啊。"],["羅處長赫踛：好，好的。"],["陳委員瑩：我希望你們可以設定目標值，我不知道你們大概多久可以全部盤點調查完畢？"],["羅處長赫踛：目前先掌握的是516項，但是因為我們還要去跟可用食品一覽表比對，所以還要一段時間。"],["陳委員瑩：對，但是你先盤點，我講的是盤點的部分嘛。"],["羅處長赫踛：所以還要一段時間。"],["陳委員瑩：對啦，多久啦？"],["羅處長赫踛：我們在一個月先做完整個的盤點，訂定目標值之後，再分批陸續跟食藥署協調。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你預計時間是多久？你是要設定目標值啊。"],["羅處長赫踛：對、對，我會設定目標值。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你一個月就全部完成？"],["羅處長赫踛：一個月是先盤點，確認之後，我們再去訂定一個目標值。"],["陳委員瑩：如果這個評估完可以直接納入平台是最好，如果真的沒有辦法，需要經過我剛剛講的那些測試的話，我們再來協調各部會，像農業部，看大家怎麼分工，因為這個經費是不會花太多啦。我希望你們一定要優先把品項確認好，請你們要再主動、積極，特別是去跟其他部會開會的時候，處長，你要不要考慮自己下來盯這個案子？"],["羅處長赫踛：沒有問題，好，是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["羅處長赫踛：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢，謝謝。謝謝羅處長。","繼續我們請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.906593750000003,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":16.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":18.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.555343750000002,"end":37.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.47659375,"end":41.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.914718750000006,"end":65.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.91096875000001,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.67034375,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.82159375,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.21784375,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.19221875000001,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.20034375,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":85.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.12721875000001,"end":94.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.37909375000001,"end":102.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.66471875,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.66034375000001,"end":105.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.51659375000001,"end":107.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.21659375,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.17409375000001,"end":111.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.79409375,"end":114.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.25784375,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.76409375,"end":115.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.87346875,"end":117.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.53159375000001,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.70034375,"end":118.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.78034375000001,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.70346875000001,"end":126.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.59346875000001,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.61596875,"end":145.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.94909375,"end":157.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.50846875000002,"end":171.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.43034375000002,"end":173.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.65784375,"end":184.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.31846875000002,"end":188.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.84534375,"end":222.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.54471875000002,"end":234.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.23909375000002,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.70221875000001,"end":241.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.06909375,"end":242.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.85346875000002,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.11846875,"end":250.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.64159375000003,"end":252.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.97034375,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.53846875,"end":266.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.32284375,"end":266.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.97659375,"end":271.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.14909375,"end":270.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.12346875000003,"end":275.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.98784375,"end":311.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.83034375,"end":332.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.72159375,"end":343.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.36534375,"end":345.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.86721875,"end":353.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.51159375000003,"end":355.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.28346875,"end":360.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.34596875,"end":364.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.78846875000005,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.90221875000003,"end":367.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.36596875000004,"end":367.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.65284375000005,"end":374.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.66846875000005,"end":379.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.61721875,"end":382.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.18659375000004,"end":386.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.48534375,"end":388.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.78034375000004,"end":389.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.58596875,"end":394.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.24784375,"end":399.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.64784375000005,"end":410.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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家送名單給你們之後,你們有主動再去調查其他各個族群嗎?有嗎?我們後續會主動調查。就是後續才,人家已經要開這個會,人家動作都很快,結果你們就只拿了,其實說"},{"start":390.632,"end":409.838,"text":"拿了那些委員提供的名單你看下面都有人在搖頭了我跟委員報告我們現在有盤點是有516項這相關的但是因為第一次跟食藥署合作我們第一次先提那個第14筆可以讓他納入到可用食品依然表裡面去做所以這個合作模式建立起來我們後續會陸續再提供"},{"start":412.287,"end":438.255,"text":"我想是這樣子就是說因為你們14項品項有月桃老藤、台灣胡椒、山肉桂等等但是阿美族人常吃的這個芒草心就沒有所以就是說到底有多少品項已經有在這個食品原料整合查詢平台那還有多少品項是沒有那我是覺得說另外就是說因為你們提供14個真的太少"},{"start":439.336,"end":462.817,"text":"醫食藥署規定非傳統性食品要納入查詢平台可以做問卷去判定具有完整的獨理學的安全性學術文獻報告以及成功使用的紀錄要25年還有28天的未毒性試驗跟基因毒性試驗還有90天的未毒性試驗跟基因毒性試驗還有致肌試驗"},{"start":464.318,"end":482.356,"text":"除此之外,我們沒有文字,所以要舉證這個長久有實用的這些歷史其實是可能有困難,所以才召開這樣子的會議。也就希望說各族群可以提供相關意見。所以你們那個唯一你們去開會的人,"},{"start":483.797,"end":509.932,"text":"在整場會議裡面唯一回答就是這14項是依照轉型正義委員會那邊來的我很傻眼其他意見通通都沒有反應反而與會的其他人士就提出很多的問題所以我就提醒我們在你們那個現在的計劃原住民族傳統醫療知識復正計劃現在有進行口述歷史的收集"},{"start":510.692,"end":529.708,"text":"關於這些口述歷史的收集除了作為記錄之外呢其實應該有一些是對我們這個原住民傳統食材要納入查詢平台是有幫助的吧應該是有吧有有記錄一些我們現在一些長者過去的一些傳統所以要請你們好好利用啊"},{"start":531.449,"end":551.743,"text":"我是我想這樣子希望你們可以設定目標值啦那我不知道你們全部的盤點你們大概多久可以盤點完畢盤點調查完畢目前先掌握的是516項那但是因為我們還要去比對跟那個那個可用視頻藍表裡面那所以還要一段時間對但是你先盤點我講的是盤點對的部分嗎嗯"},{"start":555.962,"end":581.549,"text":"所以還要一段時間。我們在一個月先做完整個盤點之後,那再按照訂定目標值之後再分批陸續再跟食藥署協調。所以全部這樣子,你預計時間,你是要設定目標值啊?對,我會設定目標值。那我先盤點。所以你一個月就全部完成喔?一個月先是先盤點,那確認之後我們再去訂定一個目標值。"},{"start":582.233,"end":610.698,"text":"好,如果這個評估完可以直接納入平台是最好如果真的沒有辦法需要經過這個我剛剛講的那些測試的話我想就是說我們再來協調各部會像農業部啦看大家怎麼分工因為這個經費是不會花太多啦那我是希望你們一定要優先把這個品項確認好那請你們要再主動積極特別去跟其他部會開會的時候我覺得處長你要不要考慮自己下來來盯這個案子好,謝謝"},{"start":611.698,"end":611.718,"text":"陳瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"153409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153409","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebafb4423fc039c3fbbcb22e1ce6086f58b446d6a815e91374409846c1f907d8ca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:05:24 - 12:14:08","影片長度":"00:08:44","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:05:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:14:08+08:00","duration":524,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1187,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時5分）好，謝謝主席。本席請曾主委答詢。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委，看到今天原民會的報告，司法院憲法法庭在111年憲判字第17號判決，肯定平埔族群具有原住民的身分，該判決要求114年10月27日前能夠修正原住民身分法或另立專法。我看到報告裡面寫原住民族委員會會規劃今年9月前要報行政院，11月通過行政院院會，這樣會不會過度樂觀？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為先期的前置作業有一些都已經先做了，不是現在才做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你真的覺得可以完成？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們儘量在這個時間內完成，因為有一個期限，也必須在114年做完。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊。期限是到114年，今年才113年。您前面答復其他委員的時候也有講，諮商同意跟平埔族身分認定的部分在3個月完成立法，是真的嗎？這是目標，還是你們決心3個月內要完成？這是您今天的答復。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對不起，這是個目標。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：總要有一個目標來完成事情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊。你這個回答可能要謹慎一點，不然你要負政治責任。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。再來，本席看到今天的預算解凍案第二案，在解凍報告第4頁，是就原住民漁民自製獵槍、漁槍許可及管理辦法的修正，原民會應該跟警政署來討論未來修法方向，來保障原住民族獵槍文化的延續，但是原民會的解凍報告只有說會持續確保草案內容符合族人狩獵需求，並保障狩獵文化的傳承。預算凍結案是要求原民會要提出應對方向，也就是要原民會表達立場跟主張，可是你們一句話都沒說，你要不要在這邊說一下？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是可以讓我請處長回答一下？"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，可以啊。請處長回答。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：這個部分我們跟內政部在討論這個辦法草案的時候，都有提出我們一些未來的規劃方向，將來會納入到整個辦法的訂定裡面。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為在報告裡我們都沒看到，所以如果講不出來，本席就認為這個案等你們辦理以後再解凍好了，因為給你時間了。","接著本席要請教，我們有宜居部落建設計畫、原住民族部落特色道路的改善計畫，對原住民族來說，這是很重要的計畫。道路工程做好了要維護，但是山區道路的養護不易，另外、從燃料稅提供財源的部落聯絡道路養護計畫，目前平均年度的執行率大概只有68%，不同的部落執行率不同，那本席要為我們新竹縣的尖石鄉、五峰鄉來爭取，我們的執行率雖然相對高，但是錢不夠用，所以本席建議，可不可以把執行率低的部分的預算移給執行率高的部落來使用？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，這是應該的，執行率越高的，我們應該要多給一些。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對，所以這一塊也要請原民會多多支持。","主委，您剛上任，您對於文化健康站瞭解嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有瞭解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在在執行面，據您瞭解，在各部落，文化健康站在執行上的困難在哪裡？您知道嗎？有沒有聽過部落有反映出什麼問題？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果勉強來講，大概就是他們還是覺得照顧的人力還不足，但是目前來講，我們照顧的510個站在照顧原鄉的老人算是照顧得不錯，但是當然還是需要再多一點人力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：需要多一點人力，那他們除了反映人力問題之外，因為我們原住民族有一些在偏鄉，有一些在平地，比較偏鄉的，現在整個人事行政管理費用，好像是各縣市政府在掌管，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們今年有增加一點了，業務費有增加。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。在我們地方上，比如說，新竹縣尖石鄉、五峰鄉，他們希望可以由他們的鄉來協助，因為有一些更偏遠的部落，縣政府大概鞭長莫及，這個部分是不是有應對方案？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊，尖石鄉的部分就有協助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你所謂的協助是怎麼樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：行政管理費有協助，有協助行政管理費。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，他們希望讓鄉公所來協助文化健康站，讓分工更細一點。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們會再讓鄉公所來做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這些偏遠的站，縣政府可能真的鞭長莫及，但是尖石鄉公所就是能夠把整個尖石鄉的每個部落照顧好，這樣是不是分工得更細？主委覺得這樣可不可以？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。像尖石鄉公所就管3個文健站了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以他們的這個反映，原民會可以協助配合嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。","再來就是，有關文化健康站的部分，我希望提供幾點意見給主委來參考，針對這些建議，是不是可以在會後提供書面回覆就可以？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：首先，第一個就是增加照顧資源，讓部落的失能長者可以獲得充足的照顧服務。","第二，剛剛你也提到，能夠補充專業人力，來減輕照顧服務員的工作負荷。就是人力的部分。","第三，隨著高齡化速度加快，是不是可以放寬文化健康站的服務人數限制？","第四，在多元族群融合的氛圍下，能不能打破服務使用者族群別的資格限制？","第五，文健站的醫療照顧設備可不可以儘量來補足？以及我們是不是能夠培力照顧服務員的專業能力，來促進他的職涯發展？以及制定照顧服務員薪資分級制和暢通的升遷管道？","最後，是不是可以推動年輕族人返鄉從事部落照顧工作，並且從耆老身上傳承原住民族深度的文化體系？","以上幾點，是不是請主委可以書面來答復？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，謝謝曾主委，謝謝。","繼續我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 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看到我們今天這個圓明會的報告"},{"start":19.963,"end":43.112,"text":"我們司法院憲法法庭在111年憲判自第17號有判決肯定平埔族群具有原住民的身份那判決要求114年10月27日前能夠修正原住民身份法或另立專法那我看到報告裡面寫說"},{"start":48.455,"end":76.167,"text":"是不是現在原住民委員會會規劃今年9月前要報行政院11月通過行政院院會這樣會不會過度樂觀?因為先起的這些前置罪有一些都已經先做了所以您真的覺得是可以完成?"},{"start":78.311,"end":101.982,"text":"我們盡量在這個時間內因為他有一個期限也必須在對呀他到114年今年才113所以所以你好那因為好像您前面答覆前面委員的時候有講吼這個諮商同意跟平埔族身份認定的部分您說三個月完成立法是是真的嗎"},{"start":104.03,"end":116.595,"text":"這是目標還是你們就是決心三個月內要完成?對不起這是個目標啦總要有一個目標來完成事情這樣你這個回答可能要謹慎一點"},{"start":118.857,"end":137.33,"text":"不然你要負政治責任再來本席看到我們今天預算解凍案第二案在解凍報告第四頁是就原住民漁民自治獵槍漁槍許可及管理辦法的修正"},{"start":138.291,"end":157.82,"text":"那原民會呢應該跟警政署來討論未來修法方向來保障原住民族列槍文化的延續但是原民會的解凍報告只有說會持續確保草案內容符合族人狩獵需求並保障狩獵"},{"start":160.366,"end":178.764,"text":"保障狩獵文化的傳承對於解凍預算解凍案呢要求是要求原民會要提出應對方向也就是要原民會表達立場跟主張可是你們一句話都沒說你要不要在這邊說一下是不是我請處長回答一下喔 可以啊 處長"},{"start":184.704,"end":187.084,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":215.267,"end":215.287,"text":"綜合協議"},{"start":232.025,"end":253.284,"text":"那另從這個燃料稅提供財源的這個部落聯絡道路養護計畫目前平均年度的執行率大概只有68%不同的部落執行率不同那本席要為我們新竹縣我們尖石五峰兩個鄉來這個爭取"},{"start":256.527,"end":256.747,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":269.264,"end":272.707,"text":"主委您上任對於這個文化健康站您了解嗎?文化健康站有了解"},{"start":291.704,"end":304.845,"text":"那現在在執行面,文化健康站您了解在各部落執行上他們的困難在哪裡,你知道嗎?有沒有聽過部落有反映出什麼問題?"},{"start":311.021,"end":311.341,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":332.726,"end":332.826,"text":"主席"},{"start":351.516,"end":380.408,"text":"我們今年有增加一點業務會有增加我們地方上會希望比如像我們新竹縣尖石五峰他們希望說是不是可以由他們鄉這裡來協助因為有些更偏遠的好像你縣政府他大概沒有鞭長莫及這個部分是不是有應對方案有啊這個尖石鄉的部分就有協助"},{"start":383.476,"end":394.867,"text":"行政管理會有協助行政管理會對他們希望說是不是讓鄉公所這邊來協助你的文化健康站讓那個分工更細一點"},{"start":396.004,"end":398.425,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":422.268,"end":443.608,"text":"對,所以這個他們的這個反應我們在原民會這邊可以協助配合嗎?可以喔?好,那再來就是我們這個有關文化健康戰的部分呢希望提供幾點提供給主委來參考那是不是這些建議會後提供書面回覆就可以喔?"},{"start":444.269,"end":469.271,"text":"首先第一個就是增加照顧資源讓部落的失能長者可以獲得充足的照顧服務那再來剛剛您也提到能夠補充專業人力來減輕照顧服務員的工作負荷就人力的部分再來隨著高齡化速度加快是不是可以放寬文件站就是文化健康站的服務人數的限制"},{"start":471.033,"end":483.899,"text":"四、在多元族群融合的氛圍下能不能打破服務使用者族群別的資格限制。再來,文件站的醫療照顧設備可不可以盡量來補足。"},{"start":486.669,"end":511.989,"text":"以及我們是不是能夠培力照顧服務員的專業能力來促進他的職涯發展以及制定照顧服務員薪資分級制和暢通的升遷管道最後就是是不是可以推年輕族人返鄉從事部落照顧工作並且從其老身上傳承原住民族深度的文化體系"},{"start":512.549,"end":512.869,"text":"主委請書面答覆"}]}},{"id":"153408","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153408","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba4de6947699170a04cb22e1ce6086f58b446d6a815e9137442cb1202a763c6df65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:53:57 - 12:05:17","影片長度":"00:11:20","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:53:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:05:17+08:00","duration":680,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1130,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時54分）謝謝主席，有請Zingrur主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好，Djavadjavay。"],["曾主任委員智勇：Djavadjavay，委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：今天是您的初次登場，大家都有很多的期許，我在這裡應該可以說算是跟你共事很久的同事，過去我也承接您在屏東縣政府原民處處長的位置，所以對我來講，您也算是我的師父，在這邊跟您說一聲感謝。很巧的是，您過去是在我們原民會文化發展中心擔任主任，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：您知不知道在30年前、1994年有一個很重要的原住民文化會議就在您服務的地方，以前叫文化園區，現在叫文發中心，在那個地方舉辦，當時李登輝總統親自出席，「原住民」三個字第一次出現，就是在李登輝總統的口中，在那一次的會議、那一個場合講出來的，您應該很清楚。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我就是想要問您，多少年來大家都在問原住民文化會議怎麼都沒有在舉辦，沒有第2屆，後來文建會辦的那個已經沒有「原住民」三個字，都叫文化會議。那我想請教，這個歷史的際遇緣分，您來擔任原民會主委，您會不會辦理這個原住民的文化會議？會不會？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們試試看，我們來辦，再重辦原住民族的文化會議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：會在8月1日原住民日嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們在內部討論一下，因為8月1日我們本來就要辦全國原住民的活動。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，如果不是8月1日原住民族日，那會在今年辦理這樣的一個原住民文化會議嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們內部討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為30年前是在4月辦理，我也不認為說一定要在原住民族日那一天辦理，但是我希望這個原住民族的文化會議能夠廣邀年輕人參與，這個部分就做為您的功課，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我跟您很熟，我可能也要稍微爆個料啦，其實這個會期很熱鬧，原住民族很關注的一個議題，就是禁伐補償金到底會不會過。我其實很想講，我昨天去電腦搜尋了一下，那個計畫還搜尋得到。因為我知道的是禁伐補償，其實原住民第一個做這個的，應該是屏東縣政府，而且是你的任內，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。我們用縣款自己來先做，中央還沒有核定以前，我們自己用縣款來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我昨天去撈資料，我還撈到一份當年的實施計畫，但是這個是96年度，但是我知道是更早，當時您是處長，是縣政府用自己的縣款辦禁伐補償。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我就想要問，你當年是執行者嘛？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：現在過了這麼多年，大家希望禁伐補償金應該要因應我們目前的狀況，目前有哪一些狀況呢？我們都在講，我們未來會有碳匯、碳權，我們都在講，造林補償金從20年60萬已經改為6年60萬，種種都必須要把禁伐補償金提高。我記得當年曹啟鴻縣長為什麼要在屏東縣辦禁伐補償，因為他說不能在賀伯風災引發土石流這樣的國土保安需要之下，政府推動了造林補償政策，結果是砍大樹種小樹，所以必須透過禁伐去平衡這種現象，那您支不支持？"],["曾主任委員智勇：支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為現在大家都說民進黨不支持，我問你支不支持啊？"],["曾主任委員智勇：支持，從以前就是支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：從以前就支持，現在也會支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是、是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝您喔。","我想要跟主委您說，我自己的感覺，原民會做的這一些所有的公務事項，您應該很清楚，講文化有文化部，講土地有國土署，講教育有教育部，原民會被弄成一個笑話，只要有「原」這個字，好像統統都是原住民的事。但是我想跟主委說，我其實對原民會的期許是，別的部會做不到的事，我們原民會就應該扛起責任來做。我舉個例子，像三叉坑，是從921地震之後，因為政府的錯誤，把它遷到一個土地產權有問題的地方，結果搞到現在還要打官司。主委，原民會能不能夠編一筆錢來幫助他們解決土地的問題？可以嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，當然土地價購其實我們是支持的，但是因為當初臺東市政府執行計畫裡面確實……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我瞭解，我也開了很多次協調會，我們安排下個禮拜去，好不好？"],["劉處長維哲：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：讓民眾知道是誰的責任，好不好？"],["劉處長維哲：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我舉個例子，我來自屏東，屏東滿州鄉的分水嶺也是一樣啊，從那個時候的八八風災，以前留下的歷史沉痾，政府把他們遷到不安全的區域，現在他們一直喊：「我們到底什麼時候遷到安全的地方？」像這樣的一個遷建案，到時候他要面臨土地，要面臨貸款，我們原民會是不是應該跳出來幫忙？對不對？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，這個地方，其實我上個月有去看過了，那土地部分就卡在撥用的問題。另外，後面的部分就是說……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個我們都協調了，國產署都協調了，他們到時候面臨貸款的問題，要不要幫忙？"],["劉處長維哲：他們的貸款問題，目前縣政府還沒有提出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我等一下會說。我再舉個例子，我很傷心，因為我們住在深山部落，我們的復康巴士長照服務規定50歲以上可以用，可是有的人三、四十歲就得癌症了，卻享受不到這項服務，政府想像不到我們是住在山區，我們有人今天得了癌症，每個禮拜都要去醫院複診，但是享受不到這一些長照服務，不能搭復康巴士。如果我們請原民會來編列，主委，您認為應不應該？以前都可以編馬桶的預算，別的族群沒有的，我們原民會可以自己編啊。甚至是我們的電動代步車，依科學數據，我們原住民比其他人膝蓋老化早個七、八年，像這個部分，其實我們原民會都可以扛起責任來做啊。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會再研議，不過……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們叫衛福部做，他們說很困難，說他們要考量要不要幫新住民做，建議原住民可不可以自己做。"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告，像代步車的部分，我們有考量到代步車其實常常發生意外事故，還有，因為他們還有一些可以享有社會福利身分類別的部分，都要研議。以上。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們有很多的原住民的問題，因為時間的關係，我沒有辦法在這邊一一舉例，我希望各位到辦公室來，我可以把這些意見提供給各位，因為這個會人民有感啊。人民有感啊。在細微的地方、政府的末梢神經觸及不到的地方，原民會就要撿起來做。","包括我們的原保地，我也想講，我一直到財政委員會處理原保地，金管會提供評鑑誘因，OK。剛剛我在財政委員會會議裡說，現在那些長治百合永久屋要自力建屋的，他們要貸款，我問公股銀行哪一個願意做，現在有評鑑誘因，臺灣銀行舉手說他們來做，農業部也願意增設，現在內政部原保地鑑價實價登錄，他們都願意做，他們說他們就在等原民會的信用保證作業，他們告訴我時限是3個月，原民會這部分可不可以比其他部會快？可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：一定可以啦。別的部會都那麼「阿沙力」。","關於這些土管規則，我講很久，我希望可以趕快出來，針對我們的疑慮，原鄉的公共設施能不能包含在內？因為現在原鄉很多的建物都沒有建照啊，他們一直在問公共建設行不行。我建議能拆的就補助，趕快做新的；土地有問題的，你們就編列經費來協助處理建照的問題，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。因為時間的關係，真的很抱歉，我要講的就是我這個會期對您的期許。賴總統當選那一天晚上他自己說的，他說他第一個要做的是部落公法人，我的政見也是要做部落公法人，要不然我們好多的問題都解決不了，部落公法人至少可以做吧？主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這是賴總統說的。未來我們到巴丹島的直航，我也希望不要讓文化總會主導，原民會你們主導一下，你們的大船都已經造好了，要準備直航、通航了，這是唯一語言有60%跟我們蘭嶼達悟族語言相同的島，我們要好好地來做。現在各個國家都很看重巴丹島，我們要搶先來做，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：編足經費。很多的問題我以後再來質詢原民會。謝謝主席給我多的時間，謝謝主委。"],["主席：好，謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，謝謝曾主委。","繼續我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":12.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.83909375,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.297843750000002,"end":21.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.74909375,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.356593750000002,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.53784375,"end":23.554718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.554718750000003,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.245968750000003,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.95846875,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.80534375,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.20159375,"end":52.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.984718750000006,"end":54.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.04346875,"end":57.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.24971875000001,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.797843750000006,"end":61.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.70909375,"end":62.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.09284375000001,"end":64.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.25284375000001,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.37909375000001,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.19721875,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.24284375,"end":80.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.11971875,"end":84.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.23284375,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.73034375,"end":88.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.94534375,"end":98.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.49221875,"end":102.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.15409375,"end":110.57909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.30471875,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.39659375000001,"end":118.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.30346875000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.76721875000001,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.61909375,"end":125.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.15471875000001,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.47096875000001,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.22159375,"end":130.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.74471875,"end":130.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.03159375,"end":136.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.20784375,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.11846875,"end":148.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.69159375,"end":149.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.23534375,"end":154.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.33659375000002,"end":150.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":155.26409375,"end":157.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.10784375,"end":159.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.07784375,"end":159.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.58409375000002,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.73034375,"end":171.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.07159375,"end":176.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.61096875,"end":181.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.46659375000002,"end":183.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.06971875000002,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.62221875,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.51971875,"end":194.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.34659375,"end":195.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.57409375,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.85596875000002,"end":206.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.27721875,"end":207.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.94784375,"end":208.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.12909375,"end":211.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.92596875,"end":214.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":214.90034375000002,"end":220.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.37221875,"end":227.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":221.68409375000002,"end":222.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.92784375000002,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.10471875000002,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.17596875,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.88471875000002,"end":235.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.02784375000002,"end":237.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":238.17096875000001,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.74471875,"end":243.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02",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Tahovecahe等21人擬具"},{"start":55.1,"end":69.15,"text":"您過去是在我們原民會文化發展中心擔任主任對不對對您知不知道在30年前1994年有一個很重要的"},{"start":70.293,"end":98.055,"text":"原住民文化會議就在您服務的地方以前叫文化園區現在叫文發中心在那個地方舉辦當時李登輝總統親自出席原住民三個字第一次出現就是在李登輝總統的口中在那一次的會議那一個場合講出來的您應該很清楚"},{"start":99.66,"end":123.419,"text":"我就是想要問您因為多少年來大家都在問那個原住民文化會議怎麼都沒有再舉辦沒有第二屆後來文件會辦的那個已經沒有原住民三個字都叫文化會議我想請教這個歷史的際遇緣分您來擔任原民會主委"},{"start":124.69,"end":131.722,"text":"您會不會辦理這個原住民的文化會議?會不會?會在8月1號原住民日嗎?"},{"start":142.168,"end":154.288,"text":"我們在內部討論一下因為8月1號我們本來就辦前國原住民的這個那如果不是8月1號原住民族日那會在今年辦理嗎這樣的一個原住民文化會議"},{"start":156.68,"end":181.338,"text":"因為30年前是在4月辦理啦那我也不認為說一定要在原住民族日那一天辦理但是我希望這個原住民族的文化會議我是希望能夠廣邀年輕人參與我想這個部分就做您的功課好嗎那因為我跟您很熟齁我可能也要稍微報個料啦"},{"start":182.52,"end":191.585,"text":"我們其實這個會期很熱鬧原住民族很關注的一個議題就是禁法補償金到底會不會過啦那我其實很想講我昨天去電腦搜尋了一下欸那個計畫還搜尋得到捏因為我知道的是禁法補償其實原住民第一個做這個的應該是屏東縣政府"},{"start":212.964,"end":214.044,"text":"﹗伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe"},{"start":239.226,"end":251.131,"text":"現在過了這麼多年大家希望禁法補償金應該要因應我們目前目前有哪一些狀況呢我們都在講我們未來會有碳會、碳權"},{"start":253.154,"end":253.794,"text":"財政部長財政部長財政部長"},{"start":271.881,"end":294.506,"text":"不能在賀伯風災土石流這樣的一個國土保安需要之下政府推動了照齡補償政策結果是砍大樹種小樹所以必須透過禁法來去平衡這種現象那您支不支持?支持喔因為現在大家都說民進黨不支持啊我問你支不支持啊?支持支持"},{"start":295.206,"end":317.36,"text":"從以前就支持從以前就支持現在也會支持嗎是是好那謝謝您喔好那我是想要跟主委您說齁我自己啦我的感覺啦原民會我們做的這一些所有的公務的事項齁您應該很清楚講文化有文化部講土地有國土署講教育有教育部"},{"start":326.072,"end":345.026,"text":"委員會被弄成一個笑話只要有原這個字好像通通都是原住民的事但是我想跟主委說我其實對原民會的期許是別的部會做不到的事我們原民會就應該扛起責任來做我舉個例子"},{"start":346.351,"end":366.461,"text":"像三叉坑他是從921地震之後因為政府的錯誤把他牽到一個土地產權有問題的地方結果搞到現在還要打官司主委我們能不能夠原民會編一筆錢啊我們來幫助他們解決土地的問題可以嗎"},{"start":373.683,"end":388.029,"text":"拜託委員當初這個土地架構其實我們是支持的但是因為當初台東市政府執行計畫面其實他們沒有對當年確實解決我們安排下個禮拜去好不好讓民眾知道是誰的責任好不好那我舉個例子我們來自屏東"},{"start":389.669,"end":410.425,"text":"滿洲鄉的分水嶺也是一樣啊從那個時候的八八風災以前歷史成阿政府把他們遷到不安全的區域現在他們一直喊我們到底什麼時候遷到安全的地方像這樣的一個遷建案到時候他要面臨土地要面臨貸款我們原民會是不是應該跳出來幫忙 對不對"},{"start":411.946,"end":425.005,"text":"報告委員這個地方其實上個月我去看過了那土地部分就卡在撥用問題那另外呢他其實他後面部分的話他另外就是說這個我們都協調了國產署都協調他到時候面臨貸款的問題要不要幫忙"},{"start":428.328,"end":454.386,"text":"她的貸款問題部分目前縣政府還沒有提出來我等一下會說我再舉個例子像是我們常常看到我很傷心因為我們住在深山部落我們的復康巴士長照服務50歲以上要用可是有的人30、40歲他就得癌症可是他享受不到這些"},{"start":455.649,"end":480.586,"text":"但政府想像不到我們是住在山區耶我今天得了癌症我每個禮拜要去醫院復診但是我享受不到這一些長照服務這些復康巴士如果我們請原民會來編列主委您認為應不應該以前都可以編馬桶啦這個別的族群沒有的我們原民會可以自己編啊"},{"start":484.591,"end":492.617,"text":"甚至是我們的電動代步車我們原住民我們的膝蓋老化科學數據我們比人家膝蓋老化早個七八年"},{"start":493.84,"end":493.86,"text":" ﹝懷疑﹞"},{"start":514.873,"end":515.654,"text":"都要研議以上。"},{"start":531.181,"end":548.096,"text":"人民有感啊我們要在細微的地方政府的末梢神經觸及不到的地方我們原民會我們就要撿起來做那包括我們的原保地我也想講我一直到財政委員會處理原保地儘管會提供評鑑佣金OK我甚至剛剛我在財政委員會我說現在那些長治百合永久屋要自立建屋的他們要貸款"},{"start":557.984,"end":580.696,"text":"我問公股銀行哪一個願意做,現在有評鑑誘因喔。台灣銀行舉手說他來做喔。但是所有都答應我了,農業部也願意增設。現在內政部、原保地建架、石架東路他們都願意做。他們說我們就在等原民會的一個作業,信用保證作業。告訴我三個月,我們可不可以比其他部會快。"},{"start":582.912,"end":584.052,"text":"可以喔?"},{"start":584.052,"end":610.62,"text":"可以!一定可以啦!別的部會都那麼阿沙哩喔!那關於這些圖管規則我講很久我希望可以趕快出來那針對我們的疑慮原鄉的公共設施能不能包含因為現在原鄉啊很多的建物都沒有建造啊他們一直在問公共建設行不行我建議啦能拆的就補助趕快做新的土地有問題的你們就編列經費來協助處理建造的問題好不好?"},{"start":610.62,"end":610.64,"text":"好!"},{"start":612.881,"end":614.222,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責負貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼"},{"start":628.533,"end":628.553,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":645.959,"end":651.521,"text":"委員會主導一下你們的大船都已經造好了要準備直航通航了這是唯一60%跟我們的蘭嶼達烏族相同語言的島我們要好好的來做現在國際各個國家都很看重巴丹島我們要搶先來做好不好編足經費那很多的問題我以後再來跟我們原民會做質詢謝謝主席給我這個多的時間"},{"start":675.829,"end":676.17,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝吳麗華委員的質詢謝謝曾主委"}]}},{"id":"153407","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153407","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba63f4f4e53f00ff029542594461f30c0b446d6a815e913744f2364352bfb7cb845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:12:30 - 12:21:25","影片長度":"00:08:55","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「高級中等教育修法暨108課綱實施檢討」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:12:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:21:25+08:00","duration":535,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.00096875,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.04971875000001,"end":266.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.72346875,"end":416.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.87721875000005,"end":446.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.18471875,"end":489.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.96284375000005,"end":489.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.14846875,"end":530.29409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.015,"end":11.64,"text":"好 昭偉好我們在座的老師代表同學代表還有家長代表還有校長還有我們教育部的張耀萬堅次長署長等大家應該是午安了那我想在這邊聽了大家很多的看法那也要先謝謝我們昭偉安排這個各界都非常關心非常焦慮也很多炮聲隆隆的108課綱那現在我們能做的事情那我想我自己"},{"start":33.071,"end":55.904,"text":"對108課綱的瞭解跟剛剛很多的發言一樣就是利益良善他提供了更彈性自主的學習方式希望把能力變成是素養適應高變的環境學習歷程希望呈現多元的學習軌跡但是我們也非常能夠同理第一線的焦慮就好像我們最後一位高理事長講的其實這個"},{"start":57.865,"end":57.885,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":76.641,"end":76.921,"text":"范雲、范雲"},{"start":94.714,"end":94.734,"text":"范雲"},{"start":123.087,"end":123.147,"text":"教師備課需要時間："},{"start":144.637,"end":144.657,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":166.792,"end":179.999,"text":"提供的資料目前平均超中2到3節增到6節所以如何讓教師的教學份量能夠降低這是要教育部有政策的因為56%的教師比過往新增2到5種授課科目我們校長也在這就是我們很重要的高中校長永春"},{"start":191.305,"end":191.325,"text":"范雲"},{"start":212.998,"end":225.126,"text":"教長有壓力 老師有壓力可是呢 那教師就會開始抱怨了嘛因為我 就是你要馬兒就是會跑又不給他炒吃喔所以如何降低教師的基本授課終點增補教師人力我覺得這個是非常重要的"},{"start":230.009,"end":251.623,"text":"還有偏鄉小校資源開不出來的時候那剛剛已經好像是學生還是教師還是家長代表那你就應該讓他跟旁邊的大學合作教育部要去協助他們去補足這個部分那甚至有社區大學裡面有一些被認證的好的課程是不是也能夠納入我覺得這是教育部責無旁貸應該要做的事情"},{"start":255.345,"end":265.762,"text":"特別是教師的負擔如何實質鼓勵到他們我想這個部分是要有政策否則增加教師人力這應該是教育部可以做的"},{"start":267.449,"end":295.745,"text":"其實很多人都擔心說弱勢的家長是不是不了解那是不是有錢有資源的家長軍備競賽找補習班雖然謝謝同學做的資料裡面看到是其實是只有10%可是各位知道10%你放大到尖端競爭的人就會深刻的感覺到競爭不公平那所以如何能夠讓弱勢的家長不了解那2020年的調查有77%的家長不了解素養"},{"start":296.565,"end":323.934,"text":"你今天叫我一個社會系的教授我也想素養是什麼聽起來很主觀的那雖然教育部說了很多我也覺得瞭解之後我被說服了可是如果連我一個立委大學教授都覺得素養聽起來好抽象我想就如何讓家長瞭解那支持弱勢的家長實質上幫助他們瞭解108課綱協助自己的小孩那我覺得這部分也是教育部責無旁貸應該要做的"},{"start":326.055,"end":329.839,"text":"教育部提供一些比較基本的數位的解釋我覺得這部分讓弱勢的家長了解那其實也非常的重要"},{"start":348.917,"end":348.937,"text":"范雲"},{"start":364.156,"end":364.396,"text":"108課綱系統化 標準化"},{"start":385.962,"end":399.147,"text":"但是因為這個部分的不確定性的確造成了家長跟學生的焦慮那我們又知道教育部沒辦法管大學嘛 對不對你怎麼可能規定或是政策說大學應該要說明校系選材應該要這個備審跟書審是就是口試跟這個同一群人我覺得有這個難度"},{"start":406.289,"end":430.45,"text":"可是既然我們要讓這個部分就是讓家長跟學生公開透明教育部應該想出一些政策工具如何很制度性的鼓勵學校或者每一個大學要有因為像美國他們其實這種方式他們我在耶魯念博士他是有一個committee學校標準化在做這個專業的可是我們在大學是各系所自行進行"},{"start":432.092,"end":446.469,"text":"政策工具鼓勵學校透明化選材標準公開透明減少猜測減少資訊落差善用數位工具剛剛我們有委員說陪著小孩去聽說明這種家長有利於台北對不對"},{"start":447.63,"end":471.624,"text":"當然如果是台中的比如東海大學就有利於台中的家長可是如何利用數位的工具鼓勵線上座談不要讓學生覺得他只能去猜測大學選材標準比如說熱音社、熱舞社就沒有人參加了以我們來講這都是leadership這些社團其實資歷是重要的可是家長學生不知道所以我想這些部分如何能夠公開透明降低資訊落差讓大學主動"},{"start":476.727,"end":476.747,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":497.225,"end":497.245,"text":"﹚范雲﹚"},{"start":516.035,"end":516.075,"text":"張亮次長"}]}},{"id":"153406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153406","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba028730b95990757a8c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e913744232082a5edcaf1125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:10:52 - 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有嗎 因為您在那邊有發言其實我想國會改革紛紛擾擾有在野時候有執政時候大家都有主張但特別我想請林佳龍部長也是之前林佳龍委員來看一下他當時怎麼說林佳龍委員這是您的逐字稿我就先標題讓你知道這是您所說的話來 下一頁"},{"start":46.001,"end":62.735,"text":"您當時認為最重要是立委對政府官員的質詢如果說官員只在那10分鐘當個木頭人被罵幾句事後什麼事情都沒有發生這個質詢沒有法律上的約束而如果官員說謊更是要在國會殿堂所做的不實證"},{"start":64.136,"end":91.617,"text":"此或是虛偽證據負起刑法上政治上的責任所以執政執行權很重要所以當時你主張官員在國會如果說法說謊要有形式上跟政治上的責任到目前為止你還是一樣主張嗎對執行權就是要強化那他當然必須要能夠有他的效力是所以當時你的主張到現在"},{"start":93.166,"end":115.957,"text":"國民黨跟民眾黨我們通過的再修正動議25條幫您達成了只限官員如果來立法院說謊或是陳述不實的話會有形式上跟政治上的責任來我們再看下一個您當時也有提到說不只政府官員人民社團法人也要善盡公民的義務及責任"},{"start":117.398,"end":127.414,"text":"所以如果人民社團法人為他的不實證詞或拒絕來就應該要科與罰則至少要科10萬元以下的罰款"},{"start":128.732,"end":152.988,"text":"而且你那時候講如果人民社團法人做隱匿或是虛偽的證詞還要負刑法上的責任也就是一年以下或是一顆一百萬元以下到目前為止你還是這樣主張嗎是我跟委員說明因為要調閱權這是大法官的解釋那你立法委員要行使職權你要強化你的執行權要讓那個調閱權可以有效"},{"start":153.929,"end":154.309,"text":"佳龍部長您先稍等"},{"start":177.476,"end":190.247,"text":"這個我們現在討論都是公聽會或是聽證會嘛您當時主張是人民如果來做隱匿或是虛偽的證詞還要負刑法上的責任也就是一年以下或是一科一百萬元以下"},{"start":191.468,"end":193.869,"text":"所以公聽會人民如果來做隱匿或是虛偽證詞就要負刑法上的責任一年以下或是一顆一百萬元以下"},{"start":209.778,"end":224.745,"text":"而且對於反對強化立法院調查權的立委都應該公佈讓社會知道問問他們為什麼自我閹割這個是有前提跟配套我就講說是大法官解釋你們質疑於調閱權的行使所以資料本身不是司法的調查權這個要把它分開對沒有錯但是現在都在討論是聽證權或是公聽會嘛對不對所以本席可以很負責任的告訴您在"},{"start":236.671,"end":257.705,"text":"這一次的國會改革在修正動議裡面人民社團或是法人如果說來聽證會及他有做虛偽不實的話是沒有刑責的比您當時在十幾年前所主張的還要輕微你當時主張是要一年以下對於人民有一年以下的刑責"},{"start":259.025,"end":272.442,"text":"本席也很負責告訴你反對強化立法院調查權的立委就是民進黨團現在的51席立委問問他們為什麼要自我閹割我們立法院的調查權"},{"start":274.158,"end":293.917,"text":"林佳龍部長根據委員報告 因為我的內容跟你不一樣 我有個上位的權利分立依據憲法上對於五權的規定所以有關於具有司法性質的調查權 那是屬於司法院跟監察院在資料的調閱權上面 我們要讓它有效 必須強化國會"},{"start":295.478,"end":306.668,"text":"不要混移焦點我從頭到尾還沒有跟你講到調閱或是調查你現在這一張都討論的是公聽會跟聽證會本席剛剛從頭到尾都在跟你討論的是公聽會跟聽證會所以公聽會跟聽證會因為上面的東西是權力分立的跟分工嘛下面的才有我們立法院的權怎麼去強化行使"},{"start":318.939,"end":343.598,"text":"來 謝謝因為外面都有斷章取義我也利用這個機會說明一下沒有問題給你說明我現在還不會跟你講說你現在算是藐視國會不過本席這個我順便說明我沒有藐視國會的文字出現在我的這個委員會的提案裡面我知道你沒有把這個是藐視國會這個我有一說一你從頭到尾你在12年前的這個公聽會上沒有講到藐視國會這個我還你清白來"},{"start":346.54,"end":361.065,"text":"部長拉回來啦前兩天本席看到外交部有一個非常好的記者會這個記者會講是說我們也加入了全球隱私執法合作協議那主要的目的跟方式是要做什麼"},{"start":362.786,"end":364.547,"text":"全球隱私執法合作協議這是你們5月28號所召開的記者會"},{"start":379.502,"end":380.562,"text":"主要的重點 盼加強各資的保障"},{"start":398.787,"end":427.197,"text":"是那我想請教現在要推動並且也有要跟其他的國際夥伴這邊要共同推動隱私執法的合作強化民眾的個資保障那這樣子外交部的具體作為會不會跟我們最近的這個新聞有執政黨的執行長傳出說掌握了公民活動群眾個資的監控會不會跟我們外交部加入這個合作協議的初始初終相抵觸"},{"start":428.629,"end":432.752,"text":"因為你提的是個案我對這個個案我並不清楚所以我也沒辦法在這裡針對這個個案來評論但是原則性我們當然台灣不只是說加入這個協議我們也是對於聯合國的兩個公約"},{"start":445.302,"end":462.862,"text":"還有相關對於隱私保障,我們有一整套的法律制度。擔不擔心我們國際友邦或加入這樣協議的其他的國際會員問起說怎麼會執政黨的執行長居然會去有掌握群眾各自的一個新聞?"},{"start":463.763,"end":464.804,"text":"您之前也是外交部跟曾經擔任過交通部長"},{"start":478.78,"end":505.681,"text":"那之前外交部跟交通部有共同宣誓希望能夠推動再一次的來參與IQ也就是國際民航組織是國際民航組織相對來講我覺得是非常重要因為對於我們台灣來講這一些都是第一手的資訊那現在換您擔任外交部長了過去可能大家也會講說上一任的外交部長戰狼性格很強那您現在有沒有信心任內有機會我們參與國際民航組織IQ"},{"start":508.843,"end":528.521,"text":"我們就是努力,全力以赴,因為這些國際組織都涉及到很多的對中共的一個影響另外對於國際法的解釋,所以我們是朝這個目標來努力,因為這個國際民航組織涉及到的其實非常的安全是跨越國境的因為我覺得您是最有資格講這個話的人"},{"start":530.423,"end":542.959,"text":"您擔任過交通部長之前的民航業務是您主管現在您又擔任外交部長所以能夠對外發聲並且來積極展現參與國際民航組織您是最有資格有多少把握?"},{"start":544.244,"end":559.859,"text":"我們努力,因為其實這個組織我以前當然也包括我當交部長跟美國有協調要去推動,但事實上當然因為這個組織的秘書處,他本身目前的狀況我還很需要去再突破。"},{"start":561.961,"end":578.17,"text":"本席提醒,對外我們一致都是以中華民國在國際上發聲,本席也期待外交部長能夠跟之前的戰狼性格有所不同,發揮你的個人專長跟魅力,真的把中華民國帶出國際。"}]}},{"id":"153405","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153405","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba74ea8969b8d8572c4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374471dc8c628705a3665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:11:35 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第二次見面我想INP所造成整個社會的動盪家破人亡一堆人欲哭無淚這個主要應該都有掌握現在被害人針對有關於這一些"},{"start":26.744,"end":45.79,"text":"鄭耀峰、董本還有他的共犯集團的人行事訴訟案件正在臺北地方法院審理當中但是到後端審判的時候大家都知道一件事情到後端審判的時候錢幾乎都追不回來了啦都追不回來了啦"},{"start":46.721,"end":65.337,"text":"大概就是看他被判多久附帶民事每個人發一張債權憑證帶回去吊在牆壁看著債權憑證哭啊大概這個故事可能會這樣子啊收尾好但為什麼這件事情啊重要今天要提出來啊問主委因為"},{"start":66.874,"end":86.774,"text":"P2P到底要不要管 要怎麼管這件事情在上一任的政府的時候啊 態度反覆 態度反覆從一開始2016年 要積極的研議 要設專法突然到有一天的時候 政策大轉彎"},{"start":88.268,"end":108.631,"text":"什麼都不管了什麼都不管了什麼都不管造成的悲劇就是什麼造成的悲劇就是這麼多人受害然後詐騙的首腦跟這些高官權貴啊吃香喝辣人民看不下去啊現在不是只有IMB囉來 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所以我問你他最新的聲明停止出清就是停止還錢以後的聲明你有看過嗎有 我從報紙上有看到你要看人家的聲明就到人家網站上去看嘛來我唸給你聽喔"},{"start":323.695,"end":350.001,"text":"他說什麼他說黃天牧近期在面對質詢的時候說網路事業借貸指導原則沒有法律效力不遵守也不會有罰則這個黃天牧說的我知道因為是我問他的所以那個自律規範有什麼用有法律效力嗎可以當請求權基礎嗎他說沒有辦法但你看這個業者他接下來講什麼話他說"},{"start":351.277,"end":374.082,"text":"接下來我本來跟新加坡有合作連新加坡都不跟我們合作為什麼不跟我們合作來看一下新加坡的金管局對當地金融服務更是用完善的法規做高度的監理對於類似的平台早有相關的法規以及對應的牌照在考慮過相關法律風險以後新加坡的合作方決定終止跟我們合作"},{"start":375.792,"end":392.858,"text":"這個是藉口還是真正的理由可以被檢驗但重要的事情是什麼但重要的事情是他直接在說我們政府人家是有完整的法規有監理有牌照我們什麼什麼都沒有什麼都沒有"},{"start":396.687,"end":409.746,"text":"主委我只請你回去思考一個問題跟銀行局的同仁思考一個問題金管會的立場未來是不是繼續用自律規範在您的任內喔因為接下來發生的全部都是你的鍋了"},{"start":410.785,"end":436.116,"text":"回去想清楚要繼續用自律規範還是要像其他的國家一樣建立好監理央行把各國的監理系統監理的方式都幫你們金管會做好功課了全部都整理出來了現在大家只在等金管會一個政策立場是要繼續自律規範不關我們的事還是要有一個清楚的立場出來主委這樣可以嗎"},{"start":437.825,"end":438.568,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"153404","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153404","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba4925ea7528a2fa081766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e9137440aec3227c6a1e6575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:12:59 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12:18:01","影片長度":"00:05:02","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:12:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:18:01+08:00","duration":302,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":778,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時13分）好，謝謝主席。有請國發會劉主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委，辛苦了。真的如同剛剛委員說的，你願意跳入火坑，但是我更要說，有來自業界的聲音，我相信大家會更樂於看見像這樣子的主委，怎麼說呢？因為等一下跟主委討論的，相信主委您在過去業界工作經驗當中，一定有遇到類似的問題。","在國發會的業務報告裡面，我們看到國發會說要積極優化投資策略審議，還有投資決策的過程，然後搭配總統的新創及地方創生的投資政見，要把125億元往後帶到250億元，未來4年評估增列投資預算，目標是4年後達到1,500億元投資量能。我們非常樂見這個願景，但是我們要跟主委報告，我們辦公室從過去一年我遞補上任之後一直在追蹤的一個議題，相信主委您過去的業界經驗一定可以體會。","關於法規的障礙，我們就以地方創生來說，很多地方創生團隊有很多新的開創、很多新的想法，甚至很多新的創業型態。常常是民間的改變走在前面，法規障礙在後面追著他們跑，被罰錢也好、被開罰，或者是被檢舉、同業之間的討論跟競爭，甚至是公部門之間對於這些新創事業的不理解，導致很多法規確實對於新創事業有很大的障礙；尤其在地方創生議題，從都市計畫、建管消防、食品加工到觀光導覽，都很有可能落入國發會所要輔導地方創生。主委，你來自業界，你過去在創業或者是在從事產業工作歷程當中，你一定有經歷過所謂的法規障礙，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們大部分其實都是會儘量閃避法規的……"],["陳委員培瑜：這樣喔？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就是不要去碰它啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：好，了解！了解！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為修法都很困難嘛！"],["陳委員培瑜：對、對、對！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們有時候會選擇不做，或者是做一些比較不觸犯法規的事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。但是您現在身為主委，我想這個話我們就不要再說，我們是不是就想辦法來協助更多地方創生的團隊？我來跟主委分享我們遇到哪些問題。","我們從去年10月就一直拜託國發會，當你們在花很多經費跟補助給很多地方創生團隊的時候，他們所面臨的法規障礙，到底國發會了不了解？國發會不能只發錢，必須要協助這些新創事業進行跨部會法規障礙的溝通。結果，到今年1月為止，國發會給我們的資料告訴我們說，經營地方小旅行相關事業就會被規定要成立合法的旅行社等等，老屋的部分有老屋的問題，原住民傳統飲食有原住民傳統飲食跟食品安全衛生法規的問題。","主委，當我們的年輕人帶著熱情、帶著熱忱、帶著愛故鄉的心回到故鄉，做中小型地方創生、創業的時候，我們難道要告訴他們就迴避法規嗎？所以我相信，主委是不是可以從今天開始，我們一起來關心這些地方創生事業他們面臨的法規障礙？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我們願意去了解，看看有沒有什麼可以改善的。"],["陳委員培瑜：有很多，主委，我手上有非常非常多案例，可是因為我時間有限。我們通常都會希望不要只解決個案，我們一定有機會透過法規的盤點，通案來討論這件事情，好不好？那就必須要拜託國發會主動積極發起跟各部會的討論。我們看到國發會給自己的定位：排除企業投資障礙；建立便民、效能、法制的環境；持續協調各個部會因應國際局勢跟產業發展的需求；以人民感受為本，進行法規的全面檢視與鬆綁。所以這個會是主委您上任之後很重要的一個任務，除了爭取相關補助跟經費以外，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後，我們辦公室也會積極協助這些地方法規遇到的困境跟障礙，可是真的需要你們跨部會協助他們。更多更多詳細的問題，跟到底這些問題有哪些面向需要國發會的力量，我們之後會再找時間跟國發會積極討論。","今天因為是主委第一次業務報告，我們就先跟您分享，在地方創生，也許是過去您比較不熟悉的中小型的、微型的、地方年輕人的，是您過去的大型企業所沒有接觸過的對象。拜託主委上任之後，我們一起來關心這些願意回到地方的年輕人，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請陳冠廷委員發言。陳冠廷委員不在、陳冠廷委員不在。","現在請羅明才委員發言。羅明才委員不在、羅明才委員不在。","現在請張啓楷委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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12:11:17","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T12:01:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T12:11:17+08:00","duration":582,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時1分）主席，我們請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長好，上個月22日本席在這裡質詢你有關金門自來水廠向財政部地方建設基金借貸2.4億元，現在基金解編了，金門縣政府希望財政部配合經濟部水利署撥款期程展延還款期限，並且在虧損撥補前不要扣縣政府中央統籌分配稅款，你當時表示要研議，已經1個月了，現在進度如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們國庫署有跟金門縣政府的財政處了解過，其實金門縣政府也表達會再研議，還要縣府簽辦，看怎樣償還這2.4億元。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為這是幫水利署墊的，你也知道民生用水本來是中央的事項，我已經講過很多遍，不是我們金門地方政府應該負擔的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，了解。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以請你不要從我們的統籌分配款扣。"],["莊部長翠雲：用什麼樣的方式，我們會跟金門縣財政處好好溝通及討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為每年撥補的差額有限，我們還是要出一點。還有上禮拜、這幾天金門小三通人有時候也是滿多的，我每次經過都覺得小三通的X光機有點小，現在有2個，還常常故障，上個禮拜還上了聯合報的新聞，這是國門，算是滿丟臉的事情，本席了解上面有2臺，1臺103年買的，1臺110年買的，這次壞的是新的那臺，103年買的那臺去年也壞掉，印象中滿常壞的，就會造成很多民眾反應，怨聲載道，你們說已經到8年了，本來打算買，後來說要等到新的遊客中心做好才買，所以先讓舊的撐著用，是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會在114年優先買2臺，就變4臺，送到新的水頭客服中心。"],["陳委員玉珍：本來去年就有編這個預算，X光機真的沒有多少錢，只要故障，因為還要找臺灣的人過去維修，所以會非常慢，就造成大排長龍，每次只要壞掉就上新聞，對關務署的形象也不好，對財政部形象也有損傷，本來就要買，就應該要買，到時候買了，搬到新的遊客中心再搬過去就好，也不是大工程，110年那臺也是會壞掉，這沒有很多錢，為什麼不馬上買呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們請關務署說明一下，好嗎？。"],["陳委員玉珍：請署長說明一下。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我們現在都有編列預算，今年也編列了2部X光機的預算。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們金門地區的嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是今年的話，就不用等114年。"],["彭署長英偉：我們儘快趕招標的程序，希望在年底前能夠處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：到時候萬一開放陸客或暑假有很多人在那裡來來去去，CIQS、海關真的滿忙碌的，那個地點很小，機器也不是那麼好用，我覺得會對你們形象造成很大的損傷。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們儘快處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們說過ESG，包括金管會，因為金門地區經濟規模相對比較小，有些公股銀行去設立分行，也有民間銀行，比較不容易賺錢，大家也知道銀行具有社會責任，在偏遠地區設銀行就像水、電，雖然不容易賺錢，但是就普惠金融來講，讓大家容易接近，你們在做這個評比，我看到金融機構對相關產業的授信評比裡頭有考慮到ESG，你們做自己銀行評比裡頭，對於在金門設分行這種屬於社會性責任，有沒有列入相關的考量？"],["莊部長翠雲：公股行庫的部分，我們在金門設的分行應該比民營多，就我所知，我們大概至少有4家在金門地區，其他的民營銀行也有幾家，公股銀行在金門有5間。"],["陳委員玉珍：也請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["陳委員玉珍：上回我在這邊有問，金管會在評比金融機構給民間授信的時候會考慮ESG，社會性也是考慮的一項，所以我上回應該也有跟黃主委說過，你們在鼓勵金融機構到我們離島、偏遠地區設分行的時候，它的獲利不會那麼好，就跟水、電一樣，有時候要打平也不容易，這部分是不是也列入對銀行的評比，例如財政部進行相關銀行負責人評比時，是不是可以列入考核項目，例如列入加分的項目，財政部和金管會意見如何？你了解我的意思嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道您的意思，就是我們在考評的時候，對於我們公股行庫到離島設分行服務當地鄉親是不是要給予加分，這部分是不是在我們的考評相關去通盤看一下，或者有某一些項目已經可以涵蓋這個事情了。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個研究一下，要回復給我。金管會是不是也一樣？因為財政部是管公股，民間銀行其實也一樣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們也可以來研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：有些你要給它好的政策的時候，是不是有照顧到離島、偏遠地區時，給予相關的加分，適時的鼓勵它們，不然像我們這種比較遠的地方，很多人不願意去做，包括投資、包括各方面，不管是上市上櫃公司或者政府比較鼓勵的公司、產業，很多人都不願意到金門去做，這是我們偏遠地區比較吃虧的地方。","綠能產業受氣候風險影響，對客戶還款能力有影響，導致違約率上升，或者擔保品價值下滑，對金融機構信用風險產生影響，請問你們要如何引導金融機構在兼顧風險原則下，將資金投入綠能產業？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想金融機構在做貸放的時候，一定會根據5P原則及風險評估作考量，至於投入綠能相關的產業，這是國家的政策，我覺得金融機構在做的時候也不能違背相關放款的基本原則，跟綠能有關……"],["陳委員玉珍：綠能產業有列入國家六大策略產業計畫裡頭嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，綠能產業的發展是很重要的。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問金管會，我們兩個禮拜前在修投信投顧相關法律時，就是修不動產證券化RIETs的時候，你還沒上任，有一條不動產的部分，我們是要求在裡頭加上「及基礎設施」，您瞭解我在說什麼嗎？因為據我瞭解，世界各國在在不動產證券化裡頭，事實上很多基礎設施，像日本啦！很多其他的國家都已經有列入這些項目，不過我們上次在修法的時候，金管會對這個一直有一點意見啦！主委，針對這個部分，是不是可以回去研究一下？因為國際上的整個趨勢是這樣子，你瞭解我在說什麼嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，我去瞭解一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：就這個部分，因為那時候在修整部法令的時候，金管會一直主張不動產一定要是土地及其附著物，但是世界各國在不動產證券化的項目，除了核心的部分以外，事實上還包括了其他的項目，所以在法令的修正部分，本席還會再提出相關的意見，希望金管會是不是找時間跟相關的公協會來溝通一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好的。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：嗯。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","接著請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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在修那個投資信託的投顧相關的這個法律的時候我們那時候是要求說就是在修這個不動產這個REIT的證券化的那個的時候我們那時候有一條那是那時候您還沒有到的時候有一條說不動產的這個部分我們是要求說在裡頭加上這個基礎及基礎設施"},{"start":506.517,"end":532.244,"text":"您了解我的說法,就是這個部分因為我了解這個世界各國在這個部分這個不動產證券化裡頭事實上很多基礎設施啊日本啊很多其他的國家都也已經有列入這些項目在裡頭所以我們上次在修法的時候那時候金管會對這個一直有一點意見那如果您針對這部分是不是回去可以研究一下因為國際上的整個趨勢是這樣子您了解我的說什麼嗎"},{"start":532.944,"end":559.883,"text":"我去了解一下就是這個部分的話就是整個那時候在修這個整部法令的時候那時候金管會一直的主張就是說一定是要什麼這個不動產的話一定要是什麼土地及其附著物但是在世界各國這個不動產證券化的這個項目事實上除了核心的部分以外事實上也還包括了其他的這個項目所以在這個法令的修正部分本身還會再提出相關的這個意見希望這個"},{"start":561.104,"end":561.244,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"153401","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153401","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaf669d1812263fac18c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e913744eb30719eee88c9bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:02:39 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這你不用擔心"},{"start":94.383,"end":109.716,"text":"然後第二個就是說馬英九前總統他在卸任前他是在2016年3月訪問瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯而且還去中美洲議會演講那去回他也過境美國過境美國哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":111.394,"end":127.553,"text":"我告訴你還好休斯頓跟洛杉磯那他也對他的八年的外交政績做了總結因為實際上我們的外交關係美國是非常重要的對不對美國的盟誼是我們非常重要的一部分所以這是為什麼要有所謂的"},{"start":128.333,"end":131.836,"text":"陳水扁和馬英九在卸任前一年都曾經過境美國,請問蔡英文總統卸任前一年有沒有過境美國?"},{"start":146.096,"end":156.079,"text":"今年是沒有,卸任的前一年,前一年當然是有,我告訴你沒有了。卸任的一年內,馬英九總統是在2016年3月,"},{"start":163.761,"end":178.443,"text":"蔡英文總統她實質上最後一次出訪過境美國是去年的3月我講的是一年內尤其是在卸任之前那我想請問一下我們的部長"},{"start":179.865,"end":199.62,"text":"為什麼陳水扁前總統就卸任當年的1月馬英九前總統卸任當年的3月都出訪美國那蔡英文總統我記得她已經多次來談說台美關係實際上是她任內她是達到最高峰嘛對不對那我想請問為什麼沒有過境的安排"},{"start":201.316,"end":226.75,"text":"這個是蔡總統的決定嘛對可是剛剛你也講過境外交其實是有意義的因為我也是從總統府這個曾經工作出來的嘛然後擔任副秘書長那時候其實總統出訪業務也是我的業務項目啦所以為什麼我那麼關心這件事因為我看歷屆總統這個不管池水扁馬英九都會藉由所謂過境美國來尤其在卸任的時候為自己的外交做總結"},{"start":227.751,"end":251.043,"text":"那我是個人是覺得很可惜為什麼蔡英文總統這麼重視台美關係這麼強調台美關係順暢無礙可她卸任前的這一年之內她沒有做沒有出訪然後過境美國呢因為台美關係都相當穩定然後我們邦交國的關係他有這個到瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯嘛那剛去嘛"},{"start":252.386,"end":253.768,"text":"蔡總統是這三任總統唯一在卸任前的一年內沒有過境美國"},{"start":268.03,"end":292.623,"text":"這一點我覺得當然會讓我們覺得是不是臺美關係之間我們是不是少了一個重要的一個展現的一個機會那當然原因是蔡英文總統不想去還是美國不讓她去還是什麼樣有什麼壓力我不知道那可能是你們外交部要去來去對外面來說明當然過去就過去了那我就要想請教一下那戴慶德總統他新當選總有過境美國的計畫吧"},{"start":298.283,"end":313.854,"text":"我們外交部每一年都會有規劃元首出訪那現在正在評估中評估中那我想請教一下你來聽聽看陳水扁總統2000年上任的時候他是在幾月過境美國"},{"start":316.51,"end":318.271,"text":"我想請教一下我們部長"},{"start":345.999,"end":374.043,"text":"那我們的賴清哲總統他的這個出訪計畫跟過境美國計畫已經在安排當中了嗎現在在呃在總統6月喔如果你要能夠這個早一點的話可能時間也蠻趕的如果是6月的話對不對8月大概還有點作業時間啦對不對還有點作業時間喔但是我真的要問部長一件事情喔你知道陳水扁我們過境外交齁過境外交前提是什麼部長"},{"start":381.662,"end":399.311,"text":"你知道我們陳水扁他2000年首次過境外交出訪的多名尼加尼加阿瓜哥斯大尼加查德跟甘比亞布吉納法索請問這些邦交國現在在哪裡還是邦交國嗎不是全部都不是"},{"start":400.291,"end":413.164,"text":"所以我要跟大家講說實際上我希望我們的部長也提醒一下因為你要安排過境外交第一個是要先安排出訪國家但我們出訪國家坦白講選項比以前多還比以前少"},{"start":415.233,"end":415.813,"text":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務"},{"start":444.431,"end":472.037,"text":"我們的吳部長是邦交國大減計劃,腰斬計劃,他很成功22國掉到剩12國,他腰斬計劃很成功部長,多一個就好,邦交國PLUS計劃有沒有信心我們來從故邦到榮邦,大家一起來努力,我們當然有個目標希望能夠增加你還是要像邱志偉委員這麼樣的一個主張,要能夠有雄心壯志至少不要腰斬好不好,可以嗎"},{"start":473.927,"end":475.154,"text":"我們的努力 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Review，要找國際電廠來檢核它是不是安全可以開啟，至少要5年。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以目前相關的修法是不是趕不及？研議的時間？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前來看是趕不及。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是不是要修專法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我對專法不是那麼理解，但是就核安會的說法是，從現在來看的話，他們認為是來不及。但我們又得解決產業的問題，所以現在就是台電用它現有的方法在做解決嘛！"],["謝委員衣鳯：它的方法是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就是如果有需要會增加機組，包括幾個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那會不會增加碳排？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：碳排的部分現在都是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們就用購買綠電憑證？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，不只綠電憑證，還有……"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有混氫？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還有碳捕捉技術，還有我們現在實驗藍綠氫的發電。這個計畫其實是比較大的計畫，因為它還有要買藍綠氫的機組。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是你們用藍綠氫的機組有辦法降碳排嗎？能降多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以，它是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們目前規劃是要降多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：藍綠氫是零碳排的，我們目標在2030年是要降24%加減1%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，這是你們的目標。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是在這個過程當中，你們預計藍綠氫的成長要多少？我覺得主委都一直沒有把這個東西講得很清楚，是因為你沒有辦法預估嗎？還是你沒有確切的目標？還是你這個目標沒有辦法跟我們說？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是沒有，其實我們已經算了，從各種路徑減下來的話，我們目前大概還有7%的缺口，會由藍綠氫來補足這一塊，我們目前是這樣，還有綠電憑證的購買來補足這一塊。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是7%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。這樣的話，目前來看是有機會，但是因為這是一個比較大的實驗，所以我們還是要協助它實驗能夠成功。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是實驗，還是試辦計畫？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它是一個試辦計畫，它實驗兩年了啦！抱歉！我講錯了。它實驗兩年了，現在是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。是實驗，還是試辦計畫？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它實驗結束了，現在是要進入大量商轉的一個計畫。"],["謝委員衣鳯：商轉？它不是實驗吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它不是！它不是！是商轉。抱歉！我講錯了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們的電力發展是經不起實驗的，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。抱歉！它已經實驗兩年了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：它是一個試辦的計畫，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，試辦計畫。"],["謝委員衣鳯：再來就是AI的部分，在國際上，AI都是一個高耗能的產業，未來在跨部會的檢討裡面，會不會要求AI的資料中心，以及AI整個運算的部分必須要使用綠電？如果AI的運算中心要使用綠電的話，到底對於我們綠電的需求會增加多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：AI中心要不要綠電，還是要看廠商所面對的客戶需求，這個還是要看廠商的需求，如果它有這個需求……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們政府部門會不會要求AI資料中心以及它運算的部分要用綠電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個就我瞭解，目前……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不然它如果是高耗能的情況下？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去評估目前AI中心的設置狀況，目前還沒有很大型的，現在有比較小型的AI中心，未來的話，委員提醒的對，我們可能要去密切注意這一段的可能性了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請李柏毅委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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之後就會進行到其他的機組去那達到零碳排的路徑"},{"start":105.584,"end":123.047,"text":"對在台電那這個案子已經申請上來了那我們還沒有和定我們還是希望再做一個細部的檢討跟規劃那就會往下走那這個話這個是一個零碳排的一個做法那另外就是在民間企業開始現在也過去每一家都會有備援電力"},{"start":123.527,"end":148.653,"text":"那大家開始也在也有一些廠商開始在在拋棄傳統的這個這個柴油發電機改用這個藍綠青的方式在做在桃園現在這些都有些廠商在做那這個這個部分他的備用電力也是一個綠綠電的部分他是藍綠青的綠電那這個這個如果也同時有我們如果能夠同時推廣下去的話那他會讓我們的淨零碳排的路徑是應該是有機會達到的"},{"start":150.273,"end":167.166,"text":"那如果就是說你都沒有定定一個目標的時候我們就沒有辦法知道說我們的電力成長的就是說電力的成長有沒有藉由濾清的方式那如果不是藉由清能的方式我們還有什麼其他的方式"},{"start":169.598,"end":187.59,"text":"我們現在的目標是用近鄰的角度去定的在2030年要降24%的降低24%加減1的降低那這個目標是存在的我們是以這個目標反推回來看碳必須減少多少的"},{"start":188.33,"end":214.102,"text":"對,可是我們新能的發展有辦法達到我們電力的缺口嗎?我們電力成長的缺口嗎?以前我的公司我們有一個永續發展公司那其實我們全球一直有在做這種濾清的研究那這個研究其實在歐洲目前來講在德國的Foster的工業區也好法國的渡輪也好在阿姆斯特丹的垃圾車也好在歐洲現在在做一個實驗室一個貨運"},{"start":215.663,"end":237.126,"text":"那連空中巴士都定了2035年他要達到氫能源的這個飛機的發展那這整個都在走的時候我們當時整個全球的研究那下來是2030年會開始進入技術成熟的推動那到2035年會商轉的成熟期商轉的成熟期"},{"start":237.746,"end":256.864,"text":"可是你現在沒有辦法預估?對,那這個過渡期我們用的是藍綠青藍綠青現在是已經在運作了就是有民間廠商在用了然後有我們在準備在法利亞電廠也做類似的實驗但是我是說那如果未來萬一電力的成長有缺口的時候怎麼處理?"},{"start":259.11,"end":278.965,"text":"那個是我們會滾動式的去去去去挖取他嗎對那何能的那何能會不會成為就是我們在這個缺口外的選擇好像沒有排除我說新的新的行政院那個團隊沒有排除是不是呃他是"},{"start":279.841,"end":289.227,"text":"他是一個來不及喔就是當我們發現他不足的時候一定會來不及那如果是我們當時是用比較用瓦斯的話那天然氣的話我們可能會採取這個購買國際綠電憑證來彌補"},{"start":295.342,"end":300.064,"text":"對電憑證跟用電缺口不一樣吧那天我聽何安慧講是這樣當要重啟的時候臺電要寫一本非常厚的一個報告書這個報告書他們大概是要寫一年半"},{"start":311.849,"end":340.289,"text":"然後進到河岸會之後河岸會審核大概是一年半以後回復改善那回復改善要多久就要看臺電改多久那這個來回的過程裡面應該會在可能會到5年的時間然後之後要得到PA review要找國際電廠來檢核它是不是安全可以開啟所以現在目前的相關的修法是不是趕不及?目前來看是趕不及那是不是要修專法?"},{"start":341.957,"end":363.698,"text":"我對專法不是那麼理解但是就河安會的說法是從現在來看的話他們是認為是來不及那來不及的話可能我們從我們得解決產業的問題的話所以現在就是台電用他現在的方法在做解決那他的方法是什麼就是如果有需要會增加機組那包括幾個那會不會增加碳排"},{"start":368.172,"end":371.934,"text":"您們都用購買綠電憑證?沒有,不只綠電憑證,還有碳捕捉技術,還有我們現在實驗藍綠氫的發電。這個計畫其實是比較大的計畫,因為它還有要買藍綠氫的機組。"},{"start":385.505,"end":401.366,"text":"可是你們就是說用這樣子藍綠青的機組有辦法降碳排嗎?就是能降多少?因為你們目前規劃是要降多少?藍綠青是零碳排,它是零碳排的。那我們目標在2030年是要降24%"},{"start":403.228,"end":405.029,"text":"是因為你沒有辦法孕婦嗎?還是你沒有確切的目標?"},{"start":420.338,"end":433.888,"text":"還是你這個目標沒有辦法跟我們說?不是沒有喔,我們其實我們已經算了我們已經算了那目前從各種我們的路徑減下來的話呢我們目前呢大概還有7%的缺口那會由這個藍綠青來補足這一塊我們目前是這樣還有綠電憑證的購買來補足這一塊"},{"start":438.496,"end":455.067,"text":"就是7個那這樣的話目前來看是有機會但是因為這是一個比較大的實驗所以我們還是要看協助他實驗是實驗還是事辦計畫他是一個事辦計畫他實驗兩年了抱歉我講錯了他實驗結束了現在是要進入大量商轉的一個計畫他不是實驗吧因為我們的電力發展是經不起實驗的"},{"start":467.295,"end":481.024,"text":"他是一個示範的計畫吧?是不是?示範計畫還有再來就是AI的部分那AI是不是就是說在國際上AI都是一個高耗能的這樣子的一個產業"},{"start":482.785,"end":507.511,"text":"那未來在跨部會的檢討裡面會不會要求AI的資料中心以及AI的整個就是運算的部分必須要使用綠電那如果AI的運算中心要使用綠電的話那到底對於我們綠電的需求會增加多少"},{"start":512.469,"end":539.441,"text":"AI中心要不要綠電還是要看廠商所面對的客戶需求然後這個是還是要看廠商的需求那我們政府部門會不會要求就是AI資料中心以及運算他的運算的部分是不是應該要用綠電?這個就我了解目前不然他如果是高耗能的情況下"},{"start":540.828,"end":540.848,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaec0db872aa51cd134622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e9137447884b307e7568acc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:50:03 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我請教你啊股市現在都已經漲到2萬點 站穩2萬多點可是真正賺錢的行業大概百分比有多少你們有沒有算過當股市到2萬點的時候我們發現傳產的一些特別傳統的夕陽產業也好或者過去這個比較即將要淘汰的產業也好"},{"start":78.134,"end":107.268,"text":"可以說是以前茅山道士啊現在不要虧錢就不得了啦所以不曉得主委有沒有發生有沒有發現這樣的情況現在我了解一下狀況對希望主委因為你剛剛來啦齁其實身負重任我們希望說社會的和諧永續是平均把國家的資源照顧到每個人的身上"},{"start":109.926,"end":131.931,"text":"我知道很辛苦 企業也是講求利潤但是 不要忘記了沒有過去的努力 沒有過去的農民 沒有過去的傳統產業撐起台灣一邊天這些好的電子公司也不會有今天的成就啊當我們看到AI的時代來臨時候"},{"start":133.834,"end":159.21,"text":"我們看到Jason Huang他回到台灣來我們看到很感動因為他是台灣ina 台南人不只他蘇之鋒還有第四名的Charles全部都是台灣人台北工專畢業的這都不容易但是提醒主委跟部長"},{"start":161.23,"end":185.657,"text":"當他們撐起一片天總市值超過接近3兆美金的時候我們要主動的跟他們聯絡請他們有機會不要忘了台灣這個地方生他養他育他的地方多多給台灣機會特別是應該多給台灣的年輕人機會"},{"start":188.035,"end":215.478,"text":"主委部長我想請問部長一下我們的八大公股銀行裡面平均年齡是多少平均年齡這個部分我手邊目前沒有資料會後送給委員是這也是請兩位上來的原因之一我們的一些公股銀行啊不斷的老化呈現的就是"},{"start":216.687,"end":244.021,"text":"老業凋零都是一些老人反而我們看到一些新興的一些金融產業年輕人都很多包括電商交易也好包括Fintech比較在沙盒裡面都是一些年輕人可是我發現政府的政策都是保護過去的老思維比較多"},{"start":245.185,"end":271.932,"text":"就過去怎麼做就是照本宣科所以的銀行、董、總永遠都沒有求新求變更遑任永續的這個經營的一個思想諸位我想請教一下國外的數據來說整個GDP裡面金融的分配佔比大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":273.632,"end":293.482,"text":"我所掌握的資料臺灣現在是大概是佔GDP的6%左右6%那其他可能我們周邊可能將近兩位數字兩位數對所以從這個兩位數的成長我們就發現臺灣的金融要加油所以莊部長"},{"start":294.895,"end":322.591,"text":"金融營業稅從5%要調降到2%或者是有人外界解讀的3%部長什麼時候開始推動?金融營業稅的部分其實就是銀行業的還有保險業的本業的部分其他的部分目前大致都是2%那至於這兩頁要不要做調整我想我們跟金管會也都在充分的討論當中"},{"start":323.868,"end":350.823,"text":"好 謝謝那你們兩位現在都在阿你馬上討論阿這個那麼簡單就是說你要降到3%或是降到2%數字你們有沒有彼此有沒有加line我們會你把所有的數字一傳見面那麼大的官員見面就是政策方向要不要確定要不要定案省下來的稅金要做什麼樣的使用"},{"start":351.643,"end":377.301,"text":"是不是來多多加強整個所有金融人員的訓練?或者是多多銀行要鼓勵他們來加薪啊?委員您的建議很好,我們都會納入這個考量。部長你知道,剛剛有提到華南清空也好,和庫清空也好,他們在公股銀行裡面表現算還是中上,前段班的。"},{"start":378.356,"end":397.603,"text":"可是你知道他們跟富邦、跟國泰、跟一些外商銀行的薪水差了多少?舉例,核庫的董事長好了,他一個月薪水大概多少?我不曉得他一個月薪水多少?他人在啊,你馬上問就知道啦"},{"start":402.129,"end":416.602,"text":"新展銀行新加坡總經理董事長一個月薪水多少?那一定也是比我們高嗎?高多少?高多少?不知道啊心理你要知道說整個市場的變化"},{"start":418.025,"end":435.393,"text":"知道應該怎麼選任新的人來擔任新的事務。部長請問你最近已經到了六七月公股銀行有幾家準備要進行董事長總經理的改選"},{"start":437.172,"end":447.199,"text":"今年會有三家銀行哪三家三家就是兆豐嘛兆豐有沒有來第一還有台企銀還有三家這個部分要做改選目前來說他們會在6月21號召開相關的董事會股東會已經到了會召開6月21號這過幾天就端午節了也跟委員報告在金融機構裡面第一個我們有"},{"start":463.45,"end":463.51,"text":"剛剛講的這三家"},{"start":491.201,"end":515.441,"text":"金康公司董總會不會換人目前當然第一個我們名單是先提列出來啦到時候還是要等到大會的你可不可以把名單讓我看一下名單可以有都有公告啊有公告請公關聯絡人拿給我一下可以提供給委員沒問題兆豐表現得好不好兆豐表現得不錯啊不錯表現得好你要需要把他換掉嗎"},{"start":516.556,"end":517.057,"text":"雷董會繼續做?"},{"start":528.155,"end":544.173,"text":"這個部分我想還是要等到整個大會議是好 那易穎的呢易穎的金空董事長易穎金空是目前是邱董事長是表現得好不好也很好啊好 那你有沒有問他要不繼續擔啊擔任啊我沒有問他啊你馬上在啊你問一下時間暫停問一下"},{"start":547.561,"end":573.939,"text":"還是等一下再問他上來是要回答委員問題不是回答我的問題人事是你在決定如果我決定我馬上我就說繼續留任因為他以前在新加坡待過而且表現也非常好非常的圓融企業大家都很稱讚他而且賺錢賺得很好賺很多義營旗下義營證券都已經破紀錄對不對"},{"start":575.76,"end":585.247,"text":"那個EPS都創新高啊都很好的人選啊那還有哪一家台企銀來台企銀董事長是劉董事長"},{"start":587.5,"end":591.504,"text":"臺慶過去快要瀕臨7塊6塊,已經是10塊保衛戰了,現在漲到多少錢了?好的不得了,以前零千號每天無名無利"},{"start":608.661,"end":636.118,"text":"到了10點我問他說你怎麼還不下班他說他一定要把台慶帶動起來所以當林董事長他到到和庫然後因為太累了然後生病過世了我覺得心裡非常的捨不得啊所以部長拜託啊好的人選你要多多鼓勵然後鼓勵他們要多待一些栽培一些年輕人會的會的"},{"start":637.839,"end":638.279,"text":"主席"},{"start":662.608,"end":664.55,"text":"謝謝羅明才委員的質詢接著我們請陳鈺貞委員質詢我們也開放現場用餐12點了"}]}},{"id":"153398","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153398","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba1cedf71ecae5cea14622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744d5cd0d2049eaa7765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:37:42 - 11:49:52","影片長度":"00:12:10","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:37:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:49:52+08:00","duration":730,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":730,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時37分）謝謝主席，我先請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，有三種刷卡消費延後24小時生效，這是金管會現在針對打詐要祭出的新策略，包括遊戲點數、錢包儲值、電子禮券。我認為金管會欠缺考慮，為什麼？打詐要從抓源頭開始，結果你先從處罰使用端開始，這不是很莫名其妙嗎？尤其電子禮券，這是我們一般小市民的小確幸，很多商家、餐廳主打的就是即買即用、買多優惠，升斗小民苦悶的日子就這麼一點小確幸，你現在要處罰？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有3,000元的上限。"],["王委員世堅：這不是很莫名其妙！不管3,000元、3萬元都不對，而且這個過程金管會自己關起門來決定，你們自己關起門來，完全沒有找相關的，例如電子支付業者，完全沒有啊！你們只有信用卡委員會自己開會，5月8日你們開會就決定了，5月24日你們只是通知相關業者，你不是找它來開會，很扯的是現在這種遊戲點數定型化契約，要談這個很好，但是你應該橫向溝通，找數位部一起來商量啊！不是這樣子嗎？結果我問了數位部，它說你們都沒有找它商量過，這很莫名其妙，我認為現在對使用端懲罰是懲罰了小市民，用4個字形容，這叫矯枉過正。彭主委，我認為金管會要管對，管大的事情，法律要對強者有效，不是去對小市民，對強者、惡劣者能夠懲罰他們、制裁他們，社會才有公理，不是這樣嗎？你剛還好意思說有設3,000元的限制門檻，天啊！我們小市民就只能在3,000元裡面打打轉就對啦！","提到源頭管理，2年前我們通過要下架投資詐騙的廣告，1年前，去年的4月又通過網路投資廣告實名制，通過以後，因為你剛上任，我讓你知道一下慘況，用4個字形容──越打越詐，通過以後，光是111年6,542件，詐騙金額37億元；隔一年更多，1萬1,775件，金額53.7億元。你剛跟我談3,000元！我就講今年，今年光1到3月就3,316件，尾數300件去掉，平均1個月1,000件，今年預估會到1萬2,000件，詐騙金額預估60億元。天啊！你剛剛跟我談3,000元！我認為這是現在嚴重的情況，要面對它。大概2個月前，金管會說6月底前投資廣告實名制就會上路，結果數發部在前天的回答，它說光是改這個系統要8個月！天啊！彭主委你回去查一下，到底是你們金管會說的6月底還是要8個月？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有跟臉書確認，它確實回答這個答案。"],["王委員世堅：你回去查一下。主席，時間暫停，我請部長一起上來。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：莊部長，談到ESG，我認為剛剛大家談很多，關於環境、社會責任、公司治理ESG的表格，我認為要真的落實才有用，不是有ESG表格，大家高高興興填一填，落實的狀況我只有4個字形容──形同虛設。不是嗎？這樣的表格，我舉幾個例子，合作金庫授信申請的案件，我光講2022年到今年4月，它受理5萬4,959件授信案件，涉及ESG的有984件，結果沒有核准授信的只有4件，而且借的金額都很大，這些借款人可能神通廣大吧！第一銀行也是，光去年有986件涉及ESG風險，也是只有4件。抱歉，剛才合作金庫少1件，是3件。第一銀行986件只有4件沒通過，已經明顯涉及ESG風險了，其他的還統統通過，連加碼利息都沒有就通過，ESG在審什麼呢？一向自我標榜模範銀行的華南銀行也是，華南銀行更扯，涉及ESG風險的案件每一件都通過，華南銀行在搞什麼呢？董事長、總經理有沒有來？莊部長這你任命的嗎？時間暫停。"],["主席：董事長、總經理都有到，請他們上來備詢。"],["王委員世堅：你們華銀自稱是模範銀行，董事長、總經理回去檢討一下，ESG的表格是作來大家看一看、交差了事的嗎？0件耶！要不然如同我剛講的，你硬要讓它通過，至少加一加利率，不是嗎？所以你們把這個問題帶回去，另外再回復我。部長，董事長、總經理是你任命的，像這樣的董事長、總經理就應該給他們記個小過，好不好？兩位請回。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員指教，這裡有沒核准的件數，但是也有有條件通過的，包含核減它的核貸金額或限制等等條件也是有的。"],["王委員世堅：有加註條件？"],["莊部長翠雲：也有加註條件的。"],["王委員世堅：所以不核准是最嚴重？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這是一種。"],["王委員世堅：要不然就利息加碼是其次嚴重？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，有條件通過。"],["王委員世堅：再來就是加註一點條件？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["王委員世堅：給貓掛鈴鐺就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：鈴鐺有警示的效果。"],["王委員世堅：我剛剛為什麼提一銀，因為最扯的，一銀還是ESG推動的時候負責召集所有公股行庫來推倡議平臺，那倡議什麼？倡議這個表格大家參考參考，是這樣嗎？所以一銀的責任更重大，一銀也算是模範銀行。"],["莊部長翠雲：一銀在評鑑上也獲得前5%的肯定，也是有的。"],["王委員世堅：我剛剛為什麼說法律要對強者、惡劣者制裁才對，我就舉興富發建設、基泰建設，因為大家耳熟能詳，興富發建設除了中捷這個案子，其他從南到北，高雄、臺中、桃園、板橋、臺北都有它的案子，從文心愛悅、經貿中心、中山真藏，名字我就不唸了，光這裡面一、二個案子都由兆豐、華銀、公股銀行聯貸111億元，我剛唸的每一個案件都有工安，少則火災，重則工人意外墜樓，3個、5個這樣不幸身亡。大家都曉得基泰大直，基泰大直問題超多的，它還涉及叫黑衣人、黑道來恐嚇客戶、恐嚇地主、非法吸金一堆，你們照樣貸款給它。我舉最後一個例子，薯條三兄弟，我就兩句話講它，剝削客戶權益、違反社會公義，是不是嚴重的涉及ESG風險？結果九大公銀行庫還聯貸給它2,600億元，剛才彭主委還跟我講對升斗小民的設限3,000元，3,000元你講得出口！你剝削升斗小民、小市民的小確幸，收回那句話，可不可以？你剛上任，來自學界，我本來對你印象很好，還有莊部長記得我一句話，繼續看好你的十字架。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員質詢。","接著請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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我不曉得這些借款的 而且借的金額都很大這些借款可能神通廣大吧那第一銀行也是啊他有900光去年有986件涉及ESG風險也是只有4件 抱歉 剛才合作禁錮還少一件 三件三件 因為這個"},{"start":405.506,"end":425.304,"text":"第一銀行4件沒通過986件你只有4件沒有通過已經明顯涉及ESG風險喔然後你還其他的你通通通過你連增加他利息加碼都沒有就給他通過那你在ESG在審什麼呢"},{"start":429.844,"end":430.904,"text":"王世堅總經理有沒有來?"},{"start":455.154,"end":461.035,"text":"莊部長在你任命了嗎?時間暫停,董事長總經理都有到,要請他們上來備詢嗎?張董你們懷疑記稱是模範銀行欸董事長總經理,回去檢討一下你這個ESG的表格是做來給大家看一看交差了事的嗎?"},{"start":485.103,"end":509.3,"text":"林建捏林建捏要不然你好歹就我剛講的嘛你硬要給他通過好啦那你至少加一加他們的利率不是嗎不是嗎所以你們把這個問題帶回去你另外再回答我好不好那個部長你任命的喔董事長總經理像這樣的董事長總經理你就應該跟他們"},{"start":511.36,"end":511.68,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":532.11,"end":539.432,"text":"不核准 這個最嚴重 要不然就立即加碼是其次嚴重 再用好加注一點條件 給貓掛鈴鐺就對了我剛剛講的議員 我剛剛為什麼提議員你知道 因為最扯的 議員他還是我們ESG推動的時候 還負責召集所有公股、行庫"},{"start":558.776,"end":566.4,"text":"來推這個倡議平台那倡議什麼倡議他們說這個表格大家參考參考是這樣嗎所以議員的責任更重大好不好議員這還算是也算是模範理論那我剛剛為什麼說"},{"start":578.772,"end":586.296,"text":"法律要對強者、惡劣者去制裁才對為什麼我就舉例嘛ESG我就舉我就講這個新復發建設"},{"start":589.561,"end":615.302,"text":"因為大家耳熟能講新復發建設除了這個終結這個案子其他從南到北高雄、台中、桃園都有他的案子到板橋、台北這從文興、愛樂、經貿中心、中山、珍藏這名字我就不念了他光這裡面一兩個案子都"},{"start":616.621,"end":636.302,"text":"由趙鋒、海外營業、在內供股銀行連帶他111億這麼明顯的他這些案件每一個我剛唸的每一個案件都有公安少則火災重則啊工人意外墜樓三個五個這樣不幸身亡"},{"start":637.906,"end":639.408,"text":"數條山兄弟數條山兄弟"},{"start":666.411,"end":672.496,"text":"我就兩句話講他 剝削客戶權益違反社會公義這是不是嚴重的涉及ESG風險結果我們九大公營行戶還連帶給他2600億剛才彭主任你還跟我講對三頭小民對他們的設限你說啊 3000塊"},{"start":695.107,"end":696.388,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員質詢接著我們請羅明采委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153397","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153397","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba231414131a2f2d988c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e913744fae877f5b75d87c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:54:43 - 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mali。原住民族要爭取原權，很重要的是要跨越政黨，而且要永不放棄。過去我當公務員時，不管是哪一個政黨執政，都要設法爭取、想辦法說服各部會，尤其是政務委員，要想辦法說服政務委員。我當了立委之後，當時原民會要送土海法、自治法，但有一位政務委員連審都不審就退回去！我跟高金素梅委員還有簡東明立委都在這裡大罵、批判那個政務委員。所以要跨越政黨、永不放棄啦！","因為行政院院長新上任，你也是新上任，很重要的是原住民族基本法是根據憲法的規定制定，然後，還有很多法律還沒有通過，所以你的第一個任務就是要到行政院，跟行政院院長報告為什麼這些法案還沒有通過。很重要的是「行政院為審議、協調本法相關事項」，這是原住民族基本法第三條規定的──「應設置推動委員會。」所以這個推動委員會是要由行政院長召集、主持，這點非常、非常地重要。我過去擔任副主委的時候，就是先協調相關部會，然後把這個案子送到行政院院長所主持的這個會，而不是隨便提一份報告事項。我舉個例子，在原基法推動會第11次會議的報告事項中，南島民族論壇推動情形報告案跟原基法推動會所要協調的原基法未完成法案有什麼關係呢？所以不要亂提。","我們一個一個來。原住民族基本法第四條規定「政府應依原住民族的意願」啊！是原住民族的意願，而不是政黨的意願啊！是原住民族的意願！所以要實行原住民族自治，這點法律定得很清楚。不要再說還要開會、還要聽取原住民族的意願、各機關的意見，已經花很多錢了！主委，從105年度每年編列預算，到113年度，為了原住民族自治的預算，總共已經編了3,639萬8,000元，多可惜啊！這個錢，已經開了無數次了，我當副處長的時候就開始了，我當企劃處處長就開始了，我這個還沒算，所以已經花了很多錢。大家都希望，是政府不希望，有些政黨不希望，所以這個部分我們要跨越政黨。","陳水扁總統提過原住民族自治區法，馬英九總統提過原住民族自治法、原住民族自治暫行條例，說可以看怎麼樣去處理，當初原住民族自治法在99年有正式討論，開了三次審查，但是很可惜，三黨沒有共識。然後後來推了一個原住民族自治暫行條例，在馬英九執政的時候，在103年提出來，我們在內政委員會開會審查，然後朝野協商把名稱改為原住民族自治推動條例，很可惜，有的政黨不簽字。所以我們要去跨越政黨，要去說服各黨團，就像原住民族基本法，當初也不是所有的政黨都支持，作為原民會的主委，作為原民會的副主委，就要去溝通協調各黨團，讓他們瞭解，不要那麼怕，告訴他們不要怕。大家當初對原住民族基本法不是怕得要死嗎？本來還要復議，經過溝通協調，後來沒有復議，到現在又怎麼樣？都還是一樣要繼續支持，還有很多其實都是原則性的條文。","我們看土海法，這是原住民族基本法第二十條授權制定土海法，所以現在你們要把它的名稱改為原住民族保留地管理利用條例是倒退的，蔡總統說的也是土海法啊，對不對？怎麼後來變成原住民族保留地管理利用條例，限縮了？我們再看土海法，96年11月26日第一次審查，我那時候當副主委，案子送到立法院，當時已經又要選舉了，案子太晚送了，前面溝通會議我開了10次，我當副主委召開10次會議，溝通協調相關的部會，然後送到院會之後，吳澤成政務委員負責召開會議，三天三夜完成土海法的審查，但是送到立法院已經屆期不連續了。97年2月15日陳水扁總統的最後任期，案子也送來了，但是後來又任期到了。104年、105年都有送土海法，但是都送得太晚，並不是不送。所以現在為什麼明明原住民族基本法第二十條授權定的是土海法，怎麼後來變成限縮在原住民保留地管理利用條例？所以不要輕易地去改，這個法律授權很清楚，站在你後面的那個處長，他都清楚，雅柏甦詠處長很清楚。但是政務官要設法去說服各部會，設法說服行政院院長，所以這個部分是要期勉曾主委。","原住民族教育法也是根據憲法增修條文，原住民族學校法也是一樣，所以這個部分有很多的東西。像傳統領域，蔡總統說11月，是指105年11月會開始劃設公告原住民族傳統領域土地，也定了我們不是很滿意的原住民族土地部落範圍土地劃設辦法，但是很遺憾的就是，當初原民會公告兩個傳統領域，一個是烏來，一個是邵族的，邵族的被行政院撤銷了，剩下烏來，從107年實施到現在，有沒有窒礙難行？有沒有影響到其他的民族啊？沒有啊，沒有影響，完全沒有影響啊，對不對？傳統領域的公告，你看，最下面的那個數字，737個部落，我們現在只有泰雅族的烏來有，只有4個部落，只完成七百三十七分之四的部落的傳統領域，對不對？所以這個部分都是需要積極地協調去推動，都是我們爭取原住民的權益，永不放棄。","像部落公法人，這是最容易做的，這是法律授權原民會訂部落公法人的設置辦法，你們的理由說部落有不同意見。如果它不要成立，就不要成立啊，沒有強制啊。曾主委，沒有強制。部落公法人的設置辦法，是原基法授權原民會擬訂的部落公法人設置辦法，公告就按照程序來，沒有共識的部落就不用成立啊，有什麼好怕的呢？對不對？所以有部落意見不同，這個部落就不用成立嘛。這個部分要好好地去檢視、去瞭解。我們的處長都很有經驗，副主委都很有經驗，而且我要請所有的處長、所有的副主委、所有的科長，要非常有信心地把所有的議題資料報告給主委，讓他能夠瞭解能夠增強他的信心，然後勇往直前地去推動。","因為時間的關係，最後，都市原住民發展條例，如果行政院院會這幾天、這一兩個禮拜或這一個月之內，也沒有辦法的話，就尊重立法委員的版本，我們會審查，我們的召委會安排審查。這個部分過去夷將主委已經開了很多次會議，我剛剛在提案說明的時候有提，109年夷將主委承諾的，條文都有，你們也都有條文，對不對？那為什麼還沒有辦法？一定是有些部會有意見嘛，那就交給立法院來處理。所以這個部分我們不分黨派，只要是為了原住民族的權益，我們跨越政黨，永不放棄，爭取原住民的權益，謝謝。辛苦了。Sa'icelen。"],["曾主任委員智勇：Sa'icelen。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，也謝謝主委答詢。謝謝。","繼續請莊瑞雄委員。莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在。","請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 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Kacaw等21人擬具《都市原住民發展條例草案》案。 »: 鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具《都市原住民發展條例草案》案。 »: 鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具《都市原住民發展條例草案》案。 »:"},{"start":440.939,"end":468.83,"text":"所以並不是說不送所以我們現在為什麼明明原住民族基本法20條授權定的是土海法怎麼後來變成限收在原住民保留地管理利用條例所以不要輕易的去改這個法律的授權的很清楚站在你後面的那個處長啊他都清楚啊要不使用處長很清楚啊"},{"start":470.479,"end":486.272,"text":"但是我們政務官要設法去說服各部會設法說服行政院院長所以這個部分是要避免這個曾主委那我們這個"},{"start":488.376,"end":502.494,"text":"原住民族教育法也是根據原住民族我們的憲法徵修條文原住民族學校法也是一樣所以這個部分有很多的東西像這個傳統領域"},{"start":505.956,"end":533.831,"text":"蔡總統說我們今年11月是指105年的11月我們會開始劃設公告原住民族傳統領域土地也定了這個雖然我們不是很滿意的原住民族土地部落防禦土地劃設辦法但是很遺憾的就是到現在當初人民會公告兩個傳統領域一個是烏來一個是少主的少主的被撤銷了行政院撤銷了"},{"start":536.451,"end":562.658,"text":"剩下污賴的。污賴實施到現在從107年到現在有沒有自愛難行的有沒有影響到其他的民族啊沒有啊所以要去說服啊說服相關的沒有沒有影響完全沒有影響啊對不對傳統意義的公告你看最下面的那個數字"},{"start":564.989,"end":577.285,"text":"七百三十七個部落我們現在只有泰雅族的烏來就四個部落只完成七百三十七分之四的部落的傳統禮儀"},{"start":580.639,"end":605.382,"text":"所以這個部分都是需要這個積極的協調去推動都是我們爭取原住民的權益永不放棄像這個部落公法人這個是最容易這是法律授權嚴明會定部落公法人的設置辦法你們的理由說部落有不同意見"},{"start":606.53,"end":630.789,"text":"他不要成立的就不用成立啊沒有強制啊曾主委沒有強制部落工法人的設置辦法這是延期法授權移民會你定了這個部落工法人的設置辦法你公告你按照程序來沒有共識的部落他就不用成立啊你什麼好怕的呢"},{"start":633.097,"end":658.055,"text":"所謂有部落意見不同,這個部落就不用成立嘛。 所以這個部落要好好地去檢視、去了解。我們的處長都很有經驗,副組委也都很有經驗。 而且我要請所有的處長、所有的副組委、所有的科長"},{"start":659.951,"end":687.003,"text":"要非常有信心的把所有的議題資料報告給主委讓他能夠了解能夠增強他的信心然後勇往直前的去推動這個部分我們因為時間的關係這個最後都市原住民發展條例如果行政院會這幾天"},{"start":688.758,"end":717.335,"text":"這一兩個禮拜或是這一個月之內如果也沒辦法的話就是說尊重立法委員的版本我們會開審查召集委員我們的召委員他會安排審查所以這個已經過去以降族委已經開了很多次會議我剛在提案說明的時候有提啊109年以降族委承諾的"},{"start":719.039,"end":741.526,"text":"等22人擬具:「都市原住民發展條例草案案案案件 條文都有,你們也都有條文啊,對不對?那為什麼還沒有辦法?一定是有些部會有意見嘛,那就交給立法院來處理。所以這個部分,我們共同的不分黨派,只要原住民族的權益跨越政黨,永不放棄,爭取原住民的權益。謝謝。"},{"start":743.369,"end":744.953,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"}]}},{"id":"153395","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153395","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba3b11567edc2a93421766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744d538382fbf97c6c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:46:57 - 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down，這是現實的問題嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：你會不會建議政府部門提出修法的要求？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我們現在的電以台電的規劃是夠的，如果是夠的就沒有提出修法的理由。"],["洪委員孟楷：有把它算入每年成長3%，未來五年內將成長15%的需求嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：依據台電在開會時的說法是有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：也有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：你相信嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至少從過去我自己……"],["洪委員孟楷：根據你在產業的經驗，主委，本席非常尊重專業，如果你只是丟給台電，說它認為是15%，我們常講一句話是眼見為憑嘛！它的15%要從哪裡來？尤其是過去，無論是電網的韌性不足，國人會懷疑我們的電到底夠不夠或者是捉襟見肘，否則怎麼會一個小小的跳電或事件就變成全臺電網的停擺。如果未來五年要成長15%，今年及明年又少了6%的核電，一來一往是20%，你認為五年內台電有準備多出20%的發電量嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：按照它的說法，其實它準備的量是有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是夠的，就是火力發電、火力全開，所以我們沒有辦法減碳。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：減碳的部分，另外向委員報告，現在已經有一些廠商開始裝設藍、綠氫的儲能作為備援，這個東西也是另外一種綠電的發展，如果我們將來鼓勵往這方面走的話，它會讓我們的淨零路徑應該是有機會達到的。我們現在已經有安裝了、已經在用了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，那個比例有多少，我都不好意思戳破啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，的確是剛開始。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我很務實的提出來，我只是想請教，因為你在這幾次的媒體報導中都已經講得非常好，我也認同你務實的想法，看起來你是沒有擁抱非核家園這塊神主牌，還是你有？本席不要誤會。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果按照……"],["洪委員孟楷：你會不會堅持非核家園？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：按照2025年的計畫，在2025年shot down之後，其實就沒有核電廠了，以目前的現實面來看就是如此。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你也不會建議？以國發會主委的高度，你來自產業界，你也不會建議這四年要重啟核電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它決定於我們的電準備得夠不夠，看起來……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！所以我剛剛講了，你相不相信台電說他們的準備是夠的？如果會有二成的用電缺口，第一，你相信台電就代表你認為準備是夠的，在這四年的任期，假設你可以做滿，在這四年的任期內你不會建議重啟核電。但如果你認為這二成的電力缺口是有疑慮的、是不夠的，或是你再進一步去了解台電的狀況，發覺可能會有缺口，可能你就會建議重啟核電。但政府現在是你們在當家、你們在執政，最重要的是不管你用再生能源或其他能源，產業能不能相信這個能源是穩定的，進一步說服產業投資在臺灣。你來自產業、你一定更了解產業的想法嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，其實我們都不斷的在溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你到底現在……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：今年的供電狀況是……"],["洪委員孟楷：你不要講今年嘛！我們現在是講到2028年，至少賴清德總統的第一任任期結束嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們得面對一個實際的現實，假設缺電的話，其實要重啟核電，按照整個法令程序，最起碼要再五年，絕對是緩不濟急。如果是我的話，我不會建議。"],["洪委員孟楷：你不會建議重啟核電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：為什麼？我們要建議的是一個能盡快先達到供電穩定的方式，基本上，我從台電的計畫來看，它一直有在monitor這一段。因為來不及的問題，你根本來不及啊！其實它已經沒辦法再考慮了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席今天只是想確認國發會主委的態度，我不帶任何預設立場，因為個人都有各自的預設立場，但是如果今天這個是你的態度的話，那麼就要準備充足，未來有一天如果產業認為臺灣的能源不夠或是能源有缺口而導致你們的政策改變，你就要負起相關的責任。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的、是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們期待你剛剛講的。我希望如果之後有機會，主委可以進一步去了解台電。因為你是國家發展的火車頭，產業的部分、能源的部分以及你過去講到的這三方面，我都希望你站在產業的角度好好思考並做整體評估，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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望我們的產業要發展但重點在於是如果到目前為止我們國發會都還沒有辦法去主導或說建議賴清德政府要不要捨去非核家園這個神主牌的話我們有其他的管道可以做到嗎"},{"start":360.372,"end":361.253,"text":"您會不會建議政府部門提出修法的要求"},{"start":379.782,"end":380.742,"text":"您相信嗎?"},{"start":401.617,"end":427.884,"text":"您產業的經驗本席非常尊重專業所以如果說你只是丟給台電說他認為15%我們常講一句話眼見為憑嘛他的15%哪裡來尤其是過去確實我們不管是電網的韌性不足以及相關的國人會懷疑是說我們到底電夠不夠或是捉襟見肘否則怎麼會一個小小的跳電或事件就變成是全台電網的一個停擺"},{"start":429.155,"end":440.231,"text":"那如果說未來5年要成長15%今年明年又少了6%的核電一來一往是20%你認為5年內台電有準備多出20%的發電量嗎?"},{"start":443.647,"end":468.619,"text":"按照他的說法,他其實準備的量是...是夠的,就是火力發電、火力全開所以我們沒有辦法減碳減碳另外跟委員報告,現在還有一個就是現在已經有一些廠商也開始裝藍綠青的這個除能做備援那這個東西也是另外一種綠電的發展那如果我們將來在鼓勵上面走的話他會讓我們的金融路徑應該是有機會達到"},{"start":471.121,"end":487.762,"text":"現在已經有安裝了,已經在用了。這個比例有多少?我都不好意思戳破了。我只是想請教,因為您在這幾次的媒體報導都已經講得非常好。我也認同你務實的想法。看起來你是沒有擁抱非核家園這樣的神主牌。"},{"start":489.838,"end":512.371,"text":"還是你有?粉絲不要誤會。你會不會堅持非核家園?按照2025年的計畫,其實2025年shutdown之後就沒有核電廠了。以目前現實的面子。所以你也不會建議以國發會主委的高度,你來自產業,你也不會建議這4年要重啓核電。他決定在於我們的電準備夠不夠。"},{"start":513.251,"end":541.012,"text":"是啊,所以我剛剛講啦我剛剛講的是說你相不相信台電說他們準備是夠的嘛如果說要有兩成的用電缺口第一你相信台電那就代表是說你覺得準備夠所以你這四年的任期假設你可以做滿四年這四年的任期你不會建議重啟核電但如果說你認為說這兩成的電力缺口是有疑慮的是不夠的或是說你再進一步去了解台電的狀況發覺可能會有缺口"},{"start":541.392,"end":559.811,"text":"那可能你就會建議衝擊核電但是政府現在是你們在當家你們在執政啊所以你一定要讓而且最重要是什麼最重要的是不管你用再生能源或其他能源來講產業能不能相信這個能源是穩定的進一步來說服產業投資在台灣"},{"start":561.752,"end":578.518,"text":"您來自產業,您一定更了解產業的想法嗎?有,其實我們不斷都有在溝通是,所以您到底您現在今年的供電狀況是大家知道你不要講今年嘛,我們現在講到2028年至少賴清德總統第一任的任期嘛對,我們得面對一個實際的現實是就是說"},{"start":581.259,"end":606.603,"text":"如果今天假設缺電的話其實要重啟核電那按照整個法令程序他起碼要在5年他絕對是緩不及急所以我如果是我我不會建議你不會建議重啟核電為什麼因為他得我們要建議的會是一個怎麼樣盡快達到先達到供電穩定那基本上我從台電的計畫來看他是有有很他一直有在在在在monitor這段"},{"start":610.359,"end":624.373,"text":"本席今天只是想要確認我們國發會主委的態度我不帶任何預設立場因為有些個人都有各自的預設立場但是如果說您今天這是您的態度的話"},{"start":625.154,"end":625.554,"text":"是的是的"},{"start":642.264,"end":667.327,"text":"好,我們期待你剛剛講的我希望啦還是可以諸位如果說之後有機會可以再跟台電進一步的瞭解因為您是國家發展的火車頭所以說產業的部分、能源的部分以及您過去講到這三方面我覺得都希望你站在產業的角度來好好的思考做整體的評估好不好好謝謝,謝謝諸位謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153394","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153394","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaa0e4ed2ce86227944869c0f3e297fc60446d6a815e913744020e7f4b4ca561565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"11:42:25 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11:56:35","影片長度":"00:14:10","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:42:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:56:35+08:00","duration":850,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時42分）主席，今天本來是要討論一個蠻嚴肅、值得社會關懷的議題，我想召委今天排這個議題非常值得大家讚嘆，也就是「鐵窗裡的少年──如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」的專報，但是我剛剛聽到部長的答復，我真的覺得政治在這個地方可以無限上綱，是不是請部長來一下？"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長就職多久了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還沒滿兩個禮拜。"],["傅委員崐萁：應該說還沒有滿十天。部長，您所在的位置是全國檢調體系都唯你馬首是瞻，你要特別謹慎你的言行，尤其這是神聖的國會殿堂，不要在這裡配合執政者來營造你的立場跟帶一些錯誤的社會示範，讓下面起而效尤、逢迎拍馬、迎合上意。司法的風氣要調整，我想部長首當其衝要以身作則，你認為對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法本來就不是逢迎拍馬，我想這是我們堅守的一個信念與原則。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝，那請問一下，您今天是部長還是大法官？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：你可以取代大法官的職務在這裡發言嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：大法官有大法官的職權，我是針對委員的詢問，我們必須要……"],["傅委員崐萁：立法院的修法提案、三讀通過的案子，是可以由你來決定有沒有符合三權分立嗎？有沒有符合毀憲亂政嗎？是你可以決定的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個在社會上是有一些意見，我們是希望整個法律上的一個……"],["傅委員崐萁：社會上有意見？一個法律人在沒有明確的法律出來以前，你可以在國會殿堂以部長的名義取代大法官來表示大法官的意見嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有要取代大法官的意見。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，那請你謹言慎行。部長，我請教一下，現在你接任部長，目前有這麼多的青少年犯罪越來越嚴重，包括孩子可以去把人家割喉，臺中捷運有隨機的傷人案，我們的教育出了問題，這八年的教育已經出問題，針對我們的法制面，部長有沒有一些想法？針對今天的主題，有沒有什麼想法？能夠讓青少年的犯罪降低而不再犯，有沒有什麼想法？請簡短說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：法務部所收治的就是屬於非行少年刑事案件觸法的一些少年，在整個社會安全網我們是收治這些少年，至於預防少年犯罪的部分，那可能就是整個社會安全網由各權責部會大家共同來做。以法務部來講，既然有非行觸法的少年，我們在少觀所或者是在少年矯正學校，就是依照社會安全網的這些理念，針對就學的部分，我們希望他能夠做一個銜接，而不是在收治的過程中讓他失去就學的權利，所以我們用108課綱來幫助他們銜接，不要因為收治而失去學習的一些權利。另外，我們的矯正學校也希望培養他們技術性的技能，同時也協助他們考到證照。"],["傅委員崐萁：矯正的部分本來就是法務部非常重要的一個課題跟一環，針對毒品防治的部分，現在青少年的犯罪也是持續在61.94%，未成年的犯罪率還是達到61.9%的占比。今天時間有限，你是新任的部長，要有新的氣象，針對青少年毒品的防治，究竟該如何嚇阻？請部長針對這個部分給本席一個正式的書面報告，因為這個事情已經講了很多年，但是毒品的問題一直沒有降下來，而且再犯率不斷的發生，從一個叫做防治、一個叫做矯正之後，如何再回籠？部長，本席這樣講清楚嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：清楚。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，請將完整的正式資料送給本席，本席一定還會再請教。另外，對於矯正的部分，本席還是要拜託部長，關於現在我們矯正處遇整體的情況，為什麼很多人再犯率還是這麼高？原因就是這些人到了社會上之後，還是要有一技能夠謀生，現在在裡面包括摺紙蓮花這些東西，在社會上它是沒有辦法銜接的。我過去在花蓮縣政府服務，我讓地方所有的公務機關，甚至軍營、軍人、國防部我們都合作，不用到四十五歲退伍，我們在營就給他第二專長訓練，都由縣政府來支援，不管是烹飪，不管是汽修，甚至修飛機，很多大廚，甚至園藝，甚至有機農業栽種，都培養他們能夠有一技在身，當時也協助國防部讓更多的人願意從事軍旅，未來不只四十五歲、四十八歲以後的終身俸，還有第二專長，他可以有其他的收益。所以部長，本席提醒你，如果要讓這些人不要再犯，你一定要讓他有一技之長能夠在社會上生存下去，要去思考現在的矯正教育到底是哪裡出了問題，為什麼再犯率會這麼高？有沒有問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我來努力，我對這個議題很有興趣，我本來就有在做，針對預防的部分，我本來就是長期一直都在關注，委員提到的這些具體的部分，我們會再來檢視。"],["傅委員崐萁：請部長將完整的計畫給本席，本席很樂意跟你一起來討論，把再犯的防治提升起來。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：另外，法務部本來就應該要中立，本席再強調一下，司法是國家社會正義最後的防線，一定要秉持公正。部長及秘書長，本席要請教一下，透過中央社這麼多媒體報導，本席不請教不行啦！郭台銘的事件，參選總統預備賄選罪全國發生數十起，幾乎都是易科罰金就了事，唯獨現任屏東縣的議長，這不是重罪，為什麼收押了五個月？而且現在起訴以後，依然在收押，賄選的事件有需要起訴以後還要收押嗎？秘書長請回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，這個涉及到個案……"],["傅委員崐萁：不是、不是，你不能永遠以個案來回答，今天既然已經起訴了，如果起訴的資料不齊全，為什麼可以起訴？既然已經起訴，證據齊全，那為什麼還要收押？請問一下秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：國際人權兩公約不是無罪推定嗎？是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為羈押有……"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長，本席請教你，國際人權兩公約是不是無罪推定？是不是？"],["吳秘書長三龍：無罪推定應該是一個大原則。"],["傅委員崐萁：一個大原則，好。既然已經起訴了，應該證據齊全，為什麼還在收押？"],["吳秘書長三龍：至於說個案要收押，法官有裁量權啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：你現在一直在強調個案，那本席現在不跟你談個案。在此請教秘書長及部長，根據各媒體報導，這不是誰講的，而是在法院正式公開審理，從錄音檔有聽到檢察官對偵訊人說：大局為重，給點時間來處理、查證。這一句其實也還好啦！但請問一下部長，檢察官講的「大局」，什麼叫大局？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不瞭解這個個案，這個大局……"],["傅委員崐萁：不是，這不是個案。本席請教你，一個正常的檢察官會不會講什麼叫大局？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我對案情不瞭解，這個大局……"],["傅委員崐萁：這個媒體已經報導成這樣子了，這不是說你瞭不瞭解，即使不瞭解你還是要給本席答復，今天沒有回答，還是要有書面回答。這是貴部的檢察官對著偵訊人錄音、錄影的情況之下講的，所以才在法院開驗的時候聽到錄音檔是這樣公開審理，在場所有的記者都聽到，所以共同予以報導，國會當然要關注。什麼叫大局？請部長回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再來瞭解。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，你再瞭解。再過來第二句話：涉及政治案件，不是一個人可以決定的。什麼叫政治案件？檢察官心裡還有政治嗎？不是依法辦案嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來瞭解。"],["傅委員崐萁：還要再瞭解？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，因為這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，每一天的資訊這麼多，但是關於法務部的就這麼一、兩件，你也關心一下嘛！你知道社會對這個質疑，你是不是第一時間就要趕快瞭解清楚，不然你怎麼到國會來備詢呢？已經引起軒然大波，你可以置若罔聞嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：凡是社會注意的事情，我們都會……"],["傅委員崐萁：再講一次，檢察官說：這是政治事件，不是一個人可以決定的。那請問誰可以決定？是部長可以決定還是誰可以決定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不清楚這個，所以我必須要再去瞭解……"],["傅委員崐萁：錄音檔就這樣播出來了，檢察官就是這樣說的。再過來是「上面都同意」，所謂「都」就不是一個人，他的上面不是一個人，他說「都同意再放人」，上面有哪些人？要都同意是哪些人？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚個案。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在已經不是個案了，這已經是矚目事件，已經涉及司法調查是否公正，這是很嚴重的問題，這已經涉及司法調查是否公正，部長今天你可以回答你不清楚，但請你針對這個案子給本席一個正式的書面回答，本席今天正式提出，在這裡錄音錄影，我們在國會正式詢問這樣的問題，檢察官可以這樣做嗎？檢察官可以這樣做嗎？檢察官可以這樣做嗎？政治辦案的檢察官？還是國家的檢察官？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再瞭解，再做一個釐清，這部分委員要我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：儘速給本席書面回答，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","郭昱晴委員、郭昱晴委員、郭昱晴委員。","沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員。","所有登記發言的委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時要求提供之相關資料或書面答復，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","部長，還是一樣要提一件事情，我還是蠻肯定您的一個政策，就是對於三專生再留任的政策，這在基層檢察官反應非常好，這真的可以留下目前戰力最強的檢察官，因為戰力強的檢察官很多都走掉，而您的這個制度真的可以有效留下很多有戰力的檢察官，光就這一點，我不敢叫做給你肯定，我沒有那個資格啦，但我真的是非常支持以及感謝您的這個制度。因為很多我們以前的同仁都有跟我說這件事，所以我在這邊要謝謝部長這個非常棒的政策，謝謝部長。","委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答復，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員陳俊宇、謝龍介、沈發惠所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_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毀憲亂證嗎?是你可以決定的嗎?我想這個是社會上是有一些的意見社會上有意見一個法律人在沒有明確的法律出來以前你可以在國會殿堂以部長的名義取代大法官來表示大法官的意見嗎?"},{"start":169.244,"end":192.78,"text":"好 那請你謹言慎行部長我請教一下現在你兼任部長現在有這麼多的這個青少年犯罪越來越嚴重包括這個孩子啊可以去把人家割喉台中捷運有這個隨機的這個傷人案"},{"start":196.786,"end":219.996,"text":"我們的教育就出問題這8年的教育已經出問題我們的法制面上面法制面上面部長有沒有一些想法針對今天的主題有沒有什麼想法能夠對青少年的犯罪能夠降低而不再犯有沒有什麼想法簡短說明"},{"start":222.045,"end":239.61,"text":"我們法務部所收治的就是屬於非性的一個少年少年刑事案件的一些的一些的處罰的少年那我們所掌管我們在整個社會安全網我們是在收治這些少年至於整個少年的一個預防的這部分"},{"start":240.185,"end":268.861,"text":"那可能我們就是整個社會安全網有各權責的一個部會大家來共同來做那以法務部來講我們就既然有非性有觸犯這個少年我們在少關所或者是在少年矯正學校那我們就是依照這些的社會安全網的這些一個理念我們就在就學的這部分我們希望他不要有能夠做一個銜接而不是說來在一個收治的過程中"},{"start":269.581,"end":273.703,"text":"這個矯正的部分本來就是法務部非常重要的一個課題跟一環"},{"start":299.153,"end":327.108,"text":"現在這個毒品防治的部分在青少年犯罪也是持續在61.94%這個青少年未成年的部分現在還是這個犯罪率達到61.9%的佔比毒品防治今天時間有限本席要求你是新任的部長要新的氣象對青少年毒品的防治"},{"start":328.53,"end":352.918,"text":"如何賀詞請部長這個部分給本席一個正式的書面報告因為這個事情你講了很多年但是毒品的問題一直沒有下降下來而且再犯率不斷的發生這個從一個叫防治一個叫做矯正之後如何再回籠"},{"start":355.398,"end":382.153,"text":"本席這樣講得清楚嗎請這個正式的資料完整一點給本席因為本席一定還會再請教另外對於矯正的部分本席還是要拜託部長現在我們整體的矯正處遇的整體的情況為什麼很多再犯率還是這麼高原因就是這些人到了社會上以後"},{"start":383.704,"end":409.502,"text":"還是要有一計能夠謀生現在在裡面是包括什麼指責那個什麼指連花這些東西在社會上他是沒有辦法銜接的我過去在我過去在花蓮縣政府服務我讓地方所有的這些公務機關甚至軍營軍人、國防部我們都合作不用到45歲退伍"},{"start":411.308,"end":440.169,"text":"我們在在營就給他第二專長訓練都由縣政府來支援不管是噴刃不管是汽修甚至修飛機很多大廚甚至園藝都甚至有機農業栽種都培養他們能夠有一技再生當時也協助國防部讓更多的人願意從事軍旅"},{"start":441.243,"end":463.037,"text":"未來不只45歲、48歲以後的鐘聲鳳還有第二專長他可以做其他的收益所以部長本席提醒你要讓這些人不要再犯你一定要讓他有一技之長能夠在社會上生存下去要去思考現在的小鎮教育到底哪裡有出問題為什麼再犯率會這麼高"},{"start":465.032,"end":491.81,"text":"有沒有問題這部分我來努力我想我對這個議題是很有興趣我本來就是在做預防的這部分我本來就是有一直在長期做一個關注希望部長一個完整的提到的這些計值的這部分我們會來再檢視完整的一個計畫給本席本席很樂意跟你一起來討論把這個再犯的防制能夠把它提升起來另外我們還是要問一下"},{"start":493.467,"end":520.271,"text":"法務部本來就應該要中立本席再強調一下司法是國家社會最後正義的防線一定要秉持公正我們請秘書長一起好嗎?抱歉抱歉部長、秘書長本席請教一下這個透過中央社這麼多媒體報導本席不請教不行"},{"start":522.264,"end":550.404,"text":"一個郭台銘的事件參選總統預備賄選罪全國發生數十起幾乎都是醫科罰金都了事唯獨現任的屏東縣的議長這不是重罪為什麼收押了五個月然後現在起訴以後依然在收押"},{"start":552.34,"end":578.754,"text":"會選的事件有需要起訴以後還要收押嗎?秘書長請回答向委員說明說這個涉及到個案不是不是不是我們一個政堂你不能永遠以個案來回答那今天既然是已經起訴了那如果起訴的資料不齊全為什麼可以起訴?"},{"start":580.134,"end":585.239,"text":"那既然已經起訴證據齊全那為什麼還要收押請問一下秘書長"},{"start":589.447,"end":609.602,"text":"國際人權兩公約不是無罪推定嗎?是不是?是不是?不是。秘書長,北溪請教你嘛。國際人權兩公約是不是無罪推定?是不是?無罪推定這個應該是一個代言者。一個代言者。好。那既然已經起訴了,應該證據齊全了。"},{"start":611.741,"end":626.312,"text":"為什麼還在收押?因為那質疑說個案他要收押好好好你現在一直在強調個案那本席就不現在不跟你談個案也請教秘書長也請教部長請問一下各媒體報導這不是誰講的是在法院正式公開審理錄音檔有聽到檢察官"},{"start":643.073,"end":667.061,"text":"對偵訊人說大局為重給一點時間來處理查證這句其實也還好啦那請問一下部長部長檢察官講的大局什麼叫大局我不了解這個個案這個大局不是這不是個案本席請教你一個正常檢察官會不會講什麼叫大局"},{"start":668.911,"end":694.389,"text":"什麼叫大局?我對案情不了解,這個大局...這個媒體已經報導這樣子了,這不是說你了不了解了不了解你還是要給本席今天沒有回答還是要有書面回答這是貴部的檢察官對著偵訊人錄音錄影的情況是要講的所以才在法院開宴的時候聽到錄音檔是這樣公開審理在場所有的記者都聽到"},{"start":696.269,"end":717.724,"text":"所以共同的報導 國會當然要關注什麼叫大局請部長回答我們再來瞭解好好 你再來瞭解再過來第二句話涉及政治案件不是一個人可以決定的什麼叫政治案件檢察官心裡還有政治嗎不是依法辦案嗎這部分我們再來瞭解"},{"start":722.472,"end":724.113,"text":"反正社會注意的事情我們都會"},{"start":747.915,"end":777.177,"text":"再講一次檢察官說這是政治事件不是一個人可以決定的那請問誰可以決定是部長可以決定還是誰可以決定我不清楚這個所以我必須要再去了解錄音檔就這樣播出來了檢察官這樣說的檢察官這樣說的再過來上面要同意不是要同意上面都同意都那不是一個人他們上面不是一個人都同意再放人上面有哪些人"},{"start":778.359,"end":806.933,"text":"要都同意是哪些人部長這個我不清楚個案好現在已經不是個案了這個已經是矚目事件已經涉及司法調查是否公正這是很嚴重的問題這不是個案這司法調查是否公正部長今天你可以回答你不清楚請你"},{"start":808.288,"end":826.973,"text":"把這個案子給本席一個正式的書面回答本席今天正式提出在這裡錄音錄影我們在國會正式的來詢問這樣的問題檢察官可以這樣做嗎檢察官可以這樣做嗎檢察官可以這樣做嗎政治辦案的檢察官還是國家的檢察官部長"},{"start":838.612,"end":845.796,"text":"我們再了解 再做一個釐清這部分委員要我們來做 建訴給本席書面回答"}]}},{"id":"153393","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153393","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebae6ac2dfedb7c95628c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e913744716be6cd68217e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:47:12 - 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11:49:48","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:39:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:49:48+08:00","duration":636,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（11時39分）謝謝主席，我請呂次長。"],["主席：請呂次長。"],["楊委員曜：次長，我們今天審議老人福利法第二十二條跟第二十五條的修正草案。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["楊委員曜：有關健保費補助的部分，我想要先提一個問題。我們健保投保分為六類的投保對象，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，6類15目。"],["楊委員曜：我覺得與其從年齡來做劃分，第6類的投保對象通常都是經濟比較弱勢的，可能是沒有雇主的也可能是榮民榮眷，就你們現在的瞭解，第6類投保對象的保費對其造成的經濟負擔是怎麼樣？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對於這部分的關心，我想這有兩個重點，第一個就是我們現在確實就是6類15目，第6類基本上就是屬於地區人口，剛剛委員所說沒有任何職業或是無一定雇主等這些就會歸於這類，但是我也必須要說，第6類的樣態其實非常複雜，雖然是有剛剛委員所說無一定雇主的情形，但老實說有一些家裡是自營商的其實也歸在這裡面，所以之前薛部長確實也有承諾對於第6類也就是有關弱勢的部分，我們這邊會趕快研議因應的措施。"],["楊委員曜：或者是你們把第6類再細分一下，對真的有需要的人，我覺得我們還是必須要優先給予補助。"],["呂次長建德：我可以跟委員報告一下，就是這裡面其實也牽涉到社會救助法，該法中有分低收入戶、中低收入戶，低收入戶中又分一、二、三款，社會救助法對低收入戶的規定包含了有無動產、不動產還有設算所得，但是我們知道這當中有一些是屬於所謂的近貧，是真正很窮困的家庭，但是因為他家裡有一間房子就被排除在外，我們現在在考量是不是可以儘可能把這些條件放寬。"],["楊委員曜：其實我還滿高興聽到次長提到這一點，我覺得臺灣的各項福利政策落實得還不錯，所以最需要去關注的反而是邊緣戶的這些人。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：那你們就趕快回去研議，假如是第6類然後不是比較特殊的這些自營商之類的，然後又沒有福保的，你們就把他獨立出來，我覺得這個是最需要而且是不分年齡的，是以家庭來看。"],["呂次長建德：委員的意見真的非常好，必須要說真的非常佩服委員的這個意見。是否允許我們趕快把您剛剛說的特殊的、近貧的部分一些相關規定予以放寬，我想將這個部分納入確實是能幫助最需要幫助的民眾，我也非常佩服委員的這個高見。謝謝！"],["楊委員曜：本席這邊看到的資料是根據衛福部統計，假如全面補助65歲以上長者的健保費，中央必須要增加400億元？"],["呂次長建德：大約359億元，跟委員報告，因為我們現在高齡化……"],["楊委員曜：那個會跳得很快。"],["呂次長建德：預估到2054年會增加到627億元。"],["楊委員曜：你說多少？"],["呂次長建德：2054年。"],["楊委員曜：那就是30年後。"],["呂次長建德：對，屆時會增加到627億元，等於double，這樣其實會排擠掉我們目前已經推動的很多政策，比如長照3.0等的費用。"],["楊委員曜：所以假如這個法通過了，還是要用公務預算來編列。對不對？"],["呂次長建德：那是當然。"],["楊委員曜：好，其他的等一下討論法條的時候再講。","再請問一下，勞動部在5月初預告了外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條的修正，內容大概是允許外國人可以在臺灣取得社工師的執照。"],["呂次長建德：是的，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：可是沒有辦法工作啊！是不是？他考取了不能工作嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我們現在已經預告了，準備要來放寬。我知道這裡面很多事實上就等於是僑生，我覺得這也很好，因為我們的社會工作裡面也有一些是針對新住民等等，他需要有一些文化敏感度，其實若能由他們去做，在語言上面會有很多的共通性，所以我想這個我們會來放寬。"],["楊委員曜：我的看法是假如我們允許他參加國考，就沒有道理不讓他投入社工師的工作行列，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這部分我們確實已經完成預告，會朝放寬的方向來進行，這個確實也是對於我們本國的社會工作人力一個很好的補充，這個很好。"],["楊委員曜：對，至於說文化的差異，我覺得那個是在考試之前要訓練的，據我所知，要參加社工師的國考必須先要有400個小時的實習。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：在這400個小時實習時間裡，他大概就會有適度的融入。同樣的本席還要關心一下社工師，就是社工師以及社工人員的工作量愈來愈大，他會長期累積負能量，他在從事個案服務的時候，有可能會出現太投入或長期在負能量陰影底下生活的情形，所以他會有替代性創傷的可能，伴隨著憂鬱、緊張、焦慮等情緒，這個會嚴重影響從事社工行列人員的生涯和身心的發展，可是心理諮商的費用又很高，我們有什麼方法可以在財力、人力上幫助這一群代表國家社會照顧那些需要關懷者的人？我一直覺得臺灣的重點都在被照顧者，但其實照顧者本身的問題也不少，次長對這部分有什麼想法？大概講一下就好了。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對於社工人員的關心，有關社工的勞動條件，包括委員提到的最重要是心理諮商，據我所知，其實像主席王育敏委員過去也是社工方面出身，對這塊非常非常關心。關於這個部分，我們大概有兩個重點，第一個就是從107年起，我們用公益彩券的回饋金補助提升社工人員執業安全計畫，這裡面包括對我們社工師的社會心理諮商，甚至還包括律師諮詢費，這些費用都從這個帳戶來支付。第二個是我們從去年開始有一個心理健康師，針對15到30歲的民眾，都有3次的免費心理諮商機會，這樣子雙管齊下，當然我認為這些對我們社工同仁來說還是有所不足，我過去在台中擔任社會局局長所以很清楚，特別是家訪的部分，同仁真的是非常非常辛苦，王委員過去擔任副市長的時候也對這塊非常非常關心，像劉建國委員他也很關心，所以對這部分，就是除了薪資之外，心理輔導部分我們一定要來empower我們的社工同仁。"],["楊委員曜：你們回去後也再看看從107年到現在的執行成效，不要忽略了照顧者。我還是要再強調一次，臺灣社會對照顧者的關懷跟支持顯然太少了一點。謝謝次長！謝謝主席！"],["呂次長建德：是的，非常感謝楊曜委員的指教。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員陳菁徽、盧縣一、涂權吉、蘇清泉、張嘉郡所提書面質詢，列入紀錄、刊登公報。"],["委員陳菁徽書面質詢：","案由：本院陳委員菁徽，藉本院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議向衛生福利部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、按老人福利法規範，中央主管機關衛生福利部乃掌理有關老人保護業務之規劃、老人福利專業人員訓練之規劃、老人福利服務之發展，以及全國性老人福利政策等事項。","二、再按老人福利法第4條第1項第6款之規範，衛生福利部乃肩負有國際老人福利業務之聯繫、交流及合作事項之權責。","三、請說明，近3年就老人福利法第4條第1項第6款規範事項之辦理成果為何？今年度113年又將有何績效成果？今年度8月份即將編訂產出之114年度公務預算及特種基金預算案當中，所投入對於是項作業之經費規模，是否將相比今年度為少？","案由：本院陳委員菁徽，藉本院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議向衛生福利部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、按中央政府「長期照顧十年計劃2.0（106~115年）核定本」之規劃，居家服務自2017年服務人數8萬5,968人推動下，每年應至少成長7%；惠請釋疑，最新於2023年之人數為何？又2026年時，應達到居家服單位計392家，惠請釋疑目前家數為何？","二、另為綿密照顧服務佈點，中央政府宣示在2021年時以家庭托顧數200處、社區照顧關懷據點3,000處之階段性績效上，將進一步再達到2026年時有家庭托顧數250處、社區照顧關懷據點3,500處。惠請釋疑，最新於2023年時，家庭托顧數有幾處？社區照顧關懷據點又有幾處？","三、再者，為降低經濟弱勢失能（失智）長者使用機構服務之經濟負擔，並增進機構提供服務量能，中央政府乃規劃在2021年時達到服務9,911人之績效，並最終在2026年落實成長至15,964人受益目標。爰請說明，2023年時，經濟弱勢失能（失智）長者使用機構服務人數有多少人？","案由：本院陳委員菁徽，藉本院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議向衛生福利部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、按衛生福利部主司之「通訊診察治療辦法」當中，於第3條第1項第10款以及同辦法第13條內容中略以，即已賦予主管機關透過本辦法落實國際醫療照護，以及為境外之我國病人藉通訊方式使其接受諮詢、診療及照護等施政責任。","二、是以考量完整落實前開規範所需，特建請衛生福利部體察我國甫於加強外交業務、努力落實讓世界看到臺灣目標之際，諸多駐外官方、行政法人及具備受政府委託之人員，因囿於語言不通爰受到他國醫療待遇不足情形，進而需要衛生福利部積極發揮職能，透過與外交部會商共擬改善措施，降低派駐他國人員使用通訊診療之門檻，以及使用上之便利程度。","三、有鑑於此，特要求限期於一個月內會商外交部，並於三個月內向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","審查：","一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。","請問：","1.是否可以修正：《老人福利法》第二條：「本法所稱老人，指年滿六十五歲以上之人。」將老人之定義放寬，納入55歲以上之原住民族人？","2.若在排富前提下，例如：修正本法第二十二條前兩項：「老人參加全民健康保險之保險費，經稅捐稽徵機關核定其最近一年綜合所得總額合計未達申報標準或綜合所得稅稅率未達百分之二十者，由中央主管機關全額補助。","老人或其法定扶養義務人就老人參加全民健康保險之部分負擔費用或保險給付未涵蓋之醫療費用無力負擔者，由中央主管機關全額補助。」","是否能約略計算出：僅納入55歲以上之原住民，並設有排富條款下，每年增加中央政府多少預算支出以補助老人健保費用？"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","￭ 就今天審查的《老人福利法》第二十二條，本席也支持健保補助，應修法調整為65歲以上老人，只要近一年所得稅未達20%者，由中央統一補助健保費。因為假如仔細探究會發現，目前健保補助只有財政狀況良好的縣市才有補助的措施。（表格1）","￭ 新北市、台北市、桃園市、台中市、高雄市這5個縣市的長輩，只要符合稅率標準，就可以獲得補助。另外，基隆市只要設籍滿3年，離島的澎湖、金門、馬祖只要設籍一年，就能每月享有健保補助，連稅率限制都沒有！","表格1：我國各縣市政府健保補助","￭ 台南市更是直到去年7月才開辦老人健保補助，其他縣市卻還停留在補助中低收長輩，但這種身為中華民國國民卻因為所在設籍地不同，社會福利資源就發生一國多制的樣貌，實在是讓民眾覺得很納悶，現在是間接逼著人民遷居到這些都市嗎？","￭ 近期立法院也在針對《財政收支劃分法》25年未修正，分配不均的「統籌分配款」與「一般補助款」一再的造成縣市政府財政狀況越加惡劣進行討論。本席所在的桃園230萬人口，人均分配額卻只有1.6萬排六都第5名敬陪末座，反觀只有185萬人口的台南市，人均分配額卻多達2.4萬高居第2名。","￭ 依照國民黨提案版本說明，據衛福部統計，若全面補助65歲高齡長者健保費，中央僅需增加400億元支出，僅占113年度中央政府總預算2.99兆元的1.3%，對財政負擔影響甚微，為落實政府有義務降低老年生活負擔之美意，並維持公平性。故修法針對65歲以上老人近一年綜合所得稅未達20%者，由中央統一補助其健保費。","￭ 國民黨版本今天的提案，將全國標準統一，杜絕各縣市因不同財政狀況，避免產生一等、二等公民的笑談，同時也排除所得稅率高於20%者，設置一個排富機制，真正有效幫助到需要的民眾，福國利民的提案，本席敬表支持。","￭ 另外，今日審查的《老人福利法》第二十五條，明定長者搭乘大眾運輸，進入康樂場所及參觀文教設施，應給予優惠，但未參酌陪同的照顧者是否也能享有同等優惠，以鼓勵老人多外出走動，促進身心健康，達到熟齡樂活的生活概念。就民眾黨提案參考《身心障礙者權益保障法》第五十八及第五十九條立法例，增訂第三項，老人因需人陪伴者，其必要陪伴者以一人為限，得享有相關優待。","￭ 對此衛福部回覆書面意見指出，考量涉及跨部會、各地方政府財政支出、補貼機制，與民間業者營運事宜，考量世代正義原則，建議維持現行條文，本席表達遺憾。就政策方面，民眾黨的提案並非創舉，是參酌現有政策進行增訂，期待擴大照顧族群，福國利民的政策，朝野都應該同心推動，有爭議的地方可以拿出來討論，需要跨部會合作的地方不應該搪塞過去，請衛福部認真研擬將《老人福利法》第二十五條參酌《身心障礙者權益保障法》第五十八及第五十九條，增設陪伴者一人為限，並享有相關優待，以上。"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","今天審查老人福利法第二十二條、二十五條，我相信衛福部知道保險業有繳費20年的終身醫療保險。然而，健保實施至今，即將邁入第30個年頭，這些70歲的老人，交了30年的健康保險費，從前面提到保險、排富的角度，這些老人是否可以在邁入風燭殘年的老齡階段，比照保險業終身醫療的概念，獲得政府的照顧？","目前這些交了30年健保費的老人，卻因為生活在不同縣市而有不同待遇，有的縣市老人是不需要交健保費的，衛福部，你知道目前有哪些縣市嗎？對於各縣市對待老人的不同做法，做為中央主管機關，是否應該加以律定？別讓同樣是生活在台灣的老人，面臨一國兩制的待遇不是嗎？衛福部新上任，是否能藉此機會做一個宣誓，彌平老人繳交健保費的一國兩制？","針對此次老人福利法的修法，今天衛福部的報告我有幾點看法：","1.缺乏全國統一的補助政策：報告提及不同縣市針對70歲以上長者的健保費補助政策各不相同，這導致了政策的不一致。例如，新北市、台北市、基隆市、金門縣和澎湖縣等地都有各自的補助規定，但並未統一標準。同樣生活在台灣，健保待遇卻大不相同！？你有何看法？","2.政策執行複雜：各地的補助政策不僅不同，且申請和審核流程也各異。這可能會增加行政負擔，並且對於需要補助的老人來說，可能會產生申請操作上的困難。例如，新北市和台北市要求不同的資格審查和申請流程。雖然這是地方政府的政策，但是對於中央主管機關來說，實施30年的健保，也該好好檢討不是嗎？衛福部對於健保未來的改革有何規劃？","3.補助金額和範圍有限：部分縣市僅提供部分補助，補助金額可能不足以覆蓋老人的全部健保費用。例如，基隆市每月補助826元，但如果健保費超過此金額，超出部分仍需老人自付。雖然比上不足比下有餘，但是這會讓人感覺中央政府健保政策的混亂，衛福部有何看法？你新上任是否能夠藉著此次修法來全國統一？","本席想請教衛福部：","1.是否有計劃統一全國70歲以上長者健保費補助政策，以減少地區間的不一致？","2.是否考慮增加補助金額或範圍，以覆蓋老人的全部健保費用？","3.有人說疾病上身，不分貧富，衛福部對於補助老人設排富條件有何看法？"],["委員張嘉郡書面質詢：","台灣於2018年已進入高齡社會，老年人口迅速增長，2025年將步入超高齡社會，衛福部亦備有【因應超高齡社會對策方案】，然目前針對長者的健保補助費用，卻存在明顯窮縣市與富縣市之間的不平等狀況。","目前長者健保費補助制度，都是由地方政府自行編列預算，這導致了不同縣市之間的福利待遇存在顯著差異。例如，台北市、新北市、桃園市、台中市、台南市、高雄市及基隆市對65歲以上長者提供健保費補助，但其他縣市地區的就無法享受同樣的待遇。","這樣的差異，導致了老年人福利保障的不公平，也有違憲法第七條所揭示的國民平等原則。老年人作為我們社會中的一個重要群體，應該享有同等的福利和權利，無論他們居住在哪個地區，然而財政問題永遠是窮縣市永遠的痛，但這個痛不能讓長者因此有不平等待遇。","為了解決這一問題，本席提案由中央政府統一補助全國65歲以上且綜合所得稅未達20%的長者的健康保險費。這樣做，不僅能夠確保所有長者都能夠平等地享受這一福利，還能夠減少因地方財政能力差異所帶來的不公平現象。通過中央政府的統一補助，可以有效減輕地方政府的財政壓力，更重要的是，這將顯著改善長者的生活品質，確保他們能夠獲得必要的醫療保障，進一步實現社會的公平正義。","本案的通過，將有助於建立更加公平、合理和可持續的老人福利制度，促進社會的穩定與和諧，建請衛福部以保障所有長者的基本權益為念，實現對社會公平和正義的承諾。"],["主席：現在作以下決議：一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","現在請宣讀提案條文內容。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.109718750000003,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.88159375,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.68596875,"end":27.469718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.27159375,"end":26.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.31784375,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.63846875,"end":30.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.355343750000003,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.620968750000003,"end":35.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.94096875,"end":38.674718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.24846875,"end":39.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.57721875,"end":43.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.24784375,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.17596875,"end":45.289718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.77909375,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.16284375,"end":48.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.03596875,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.73159375,"end":66.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.08846875,"end":64.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.69971875,"end":68.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.84721875000001,"end":70.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.83846875,"end":71.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.49221875,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.58471875000001,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.83346875000001,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.15346875,"end":109.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.62659375000001,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.78596875000001,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.88284375,"end":111.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.47346875000001,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.92034375,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.37346875,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.38596875000002,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.49909375000001,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.56659375,"end":137.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.07284375,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﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":111.611,"end":112.572,"text":"對,或者是你們再把第六類再細分一下"},{"start":136.92,"end":164.923,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":165.026,"end":195.026,"text":" ﹏對﹏"},{"start":195.266,"end":223.491,"text":"最需要去關注的反而是邊緣戶的。沒錯沒錯。那你們就是趕快回去繳第六類,然後不是像比較特殊的聚場之類的。然後又沒有福保的。沒錯。你們把它獨立出來,我覺得這個是最需要,而且是不分年齡的。沒錯沒錯。他是以家庭來看。"},{"start":224.951,"end":251.467,"text":"委員王,你的意見真的是非常好。必須要說,真的非常佩服委員的這一個意見。那我們這個就是說,是不是允許我們在這邊,我們趕快把這一個,您剛剛說的特殊的這一個禁品的部分,我們來看看能不能有些相關的一些規定,把它放寬。這個部分我想來納入,我想這個是確實,就是說把我們,就是幫咱,最需要幫咱的這個品種。我想這是一個精神。我非常佩服委員的這一個高見,謝謝。那,因為"},{"start":255.338,"end":267.988,"text":"因為我這邊看到的資料是未付出統計假如說全面的補助65歲以上的長者健保費呢,中央必須要增加400億啊。欸,大約359。359?"},{"start":267.988,"end":268.008,"text":"是。"},{"start":272.031,"end":277.436,"text":"那我跟委員報告就是說因為每一年,我們現在高齡化嘛,那預估到2054會增加到627億,627億,那這個其實老師說2054會增加到627億,等於double嘛,double其實這樣會排擠掉我們現在目前已經推動很多很多像長照3.0啊,我們價錢的這個費用。"},{"start":298.686,"end":316.16,"text":"所以這個假如法有通過,這個還是要用公務預算來審查?當然。其他的我們等一下討論法條的時候再講。好的。我問一下,因為我們現在已經允許外國"},{"start":319.632,"end":342.839,"text":" ﹖勞動部五月初預告了外國人從事就業服務法的46條﹖他大概就是允許外國人可以在臺灣考取﹖取得社公司的國土執照﹖可是沒有辦法工作啊﹖是不是﹖他考取不能工作嗎﹖"},{"start":344.36,"end":369.179,"text":"目前預告要放寬我們現在已經預告了準備要來放寬我也跟委員報告我知道這個很多事實上就是說那等於是喬生對喬生他們我覺得這也很好因為喬生他們事實上因為我們的社會工作裡面也有一些像針對新住民等等這些他需要有一些文化敏感度那其實由他們他們在語言上面這個會有很多很多的一些這個共同性所以我想這個我們會來放寬我講我的看法就是說"},{"start":371.681,"end":382.439,"text":"他說我們只要允許他參加國考,沒有道理不讓他投入社會公司的工作行列。對不對?"},{"start":387.233,"end":414.96,"text":"欸包委,反正我確實我們這個部分已經完成預告,那我們會朝這個部分的放寬,這個方向來進行。我跟你講這個確實也是對於我們本國的,我們整個這個社會工作人力一個很好的補充,這個很好。對,那至於說文化的差異,那個我覺得那個是在考試之前要訓練的。我好像知道要參加社工時的國考必須要有400個小時的工作時間。"},{"start":417.421,"end":435.76,"text":"那在這400個小時裡面他大概就必須要有他會有適度的進入。一樣關心一下社工師。社工以及社工人員的"},{"start":438.476,"end":439.939,"text":"則不予審查 ．則不予審查．則不予審查．"},{"start":452.056,"end":479.718,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":479.918,"end":481.098,"text":"﹚楊曜﹚楊曜﹚楊曜﹚"},{"start":509.349,"end":528.534,"text":"我們重點都在被照顧者,其實照顧者本身的問題也不少。這個次長有什麼想法?你今天可以大概講一下就好了。我想整個有關社工的勞動條件,其實委員最重要的是心理智商。"},{"start":529.314,"end":548.371,"text":" ﹖其實據我所知像主席王育敏﹖王委員其實他也是長期﹖過去也是社工方面出身﹖對這方面非常非常關心﹖那這個部分有關於像﹖這個部分我們大概兩個重點﹖第一個就是說我們從107年起我們有公益彩券的回饋金﹖有一個提升社工人員職業安全計畫﹖"},{"start":549.472,"end":573.522,"text":"這裡面包括就是說整個這一個對於我們的整個這個社公司的這一個社會心理的這一個諮商還有甚至還有包括律師諮詢費這個都從這個account他來支付另外第二個其實我們現在目前從去我們從這個去年開始有一個心理健康師針對15到30歲的這一個民眾他都有這一個他都有三次"},{"start":574.042,"end":603.611,"text":"的這一個免費的心理諮商的這個機會。那我想雙管齊下,當然我認為對我們社工同仁還是真的不足。我過去在台中擔任社會局長,我知道特別是家防的部分,同仁真的是非常非常辛苦。像王委員過去也是對這一塊,擔任副市長的時候也是對這塊非常非常關心。那我想這邊我們會來跟續,來其實真的對於社工同仁,像劉建國委員還有關心嘛,就是除了薪資之外,心理的輔導我們一定要來 empower我們的社工同仁。"},{"start":604.371,"end":633.02,"text":"對,然後你們回去大概也再看看從107年到現在我們執行的成效怎麼樣。不要讓照顧者,我還是要講一下台灣社會對照顧者的關懷跟支持顯然太少了一點。好,謝謝市長,謝謝主席。好的,非常感謝楊偉文的指教,謝謝。"},{"start":634.448,"end":634.689,"text":"好,謝謝楊曜委員。"}]}},{"id":"153391","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153391","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba4565c50f85e7bbbc9542594461f30c0b446d6a815e9137444889e893383af6ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:40:56 - 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- 11:46:49","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:36:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:46:49+08:00","duration":596,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-23"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":564,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時36分）好，林部長已經站在台上了。部長，這是你第一次到外交及國防委員會備詢，本席一開始有幾個問題先問你。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：前面幾位委員有談到臺灣民主基金會的問題，第一個，本席想先問部長，臺灣民主基金會是不是臺灣非常重要的外交資源？"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：OK。第二個問題，臺灣整體的外交政策，最高的負責人是誰？"],["林部長佳龍：總統。"],["洪委員申翰：總統和外交部長，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：下面一件事情，其實大家都有看到，這次賴總統在就職演說提到很重要的一點，就是他會持續堅持蔡英文總統的四個堅持，尤其是裡面非常關鍵的一點，就是中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念。部長，你覺得外交部接下來會不會秉持四個堅持，尤其是中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬的概念，推動我們的外交政策？"],["林部長佳龍：會的。"],["洪委員申翰：好。剛才說的中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬的概念，其實不只是賴總統說，我們這幾天也看到大大小小的民調公司都把這句話拿去做民調，基本上在臺灣的民意支持度都是超過六成，甚至有部分民調超過七成，代表這也是有民意基礎的一個立場。","今天談到臺灣民主基金會的問題時，其實本席並不想談論任何個別人選的問題，本席只想說一件事情，如果臺灣民主基金會是我們外交上非常關鍵的資源，那臺灣民主基金會的運作、經營的方向，要不要符合剛剛說的，四個堅持當中，中華民國和中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念？該不該？"],["林部長佳龍：應該。"],["洪委員申翰：所以部長，接下來臺灣民主基金會的執行長要怎麼產生？不管誰推薦、誰提名、誰指定、尊重誰，本席覺得這是一回事，大家都可以推薦，韓院長可以推薦，其他院長可以推薦，王金平院長也可以推薦，誰都可以推薦，本席覺得都很好，大家可以推薦各種人才。","但本席覺得有一件事情很重要，這個臺灣民主基金會的掌舵者、執行長，他必須認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個立場，本席覺得這是關鍵。如果他無法認同這個立場，或他無法執行這個立場，那我們整體的外交政策就會出現很大的扞格，甚至很有可能對我們的外交成效、成果產生影響，請問最後負責的是誰？"],["林部長佳龍：因為總統是國家元首，對外代表國家，外交權當然屬於總統。"],["洪委員申翰：所以本席要再強調一次，臺灣民主基金會人事任命的問題不是黨派的問題，這是責任政治的問題，因為如果我們的外交沒有搞好，我們的外交資源之間彼此扞格和衝突，大眾會找誰究責？會找外交部長啊！會找總統啊！這就是為什麼大家一直說執行長的人選需要尊重總統的原因，因為是總統負責，而不是因為他是哪一個黨派的問題。","所以部長，本席今天不談個別人選，本席對個別人選沒有意見，任何人推薦的人選都可以，大家可以儘量推薦。但本席認為這個執行長的人選，應該要認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬，這個清清楚楚而且帶有民意基礎的立場。應該沒有問題吧？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：好。所以本席今天不談個別人選，誰推薦的？本席都不介意，但是我們認為他要能夠滿足這個立場，他要能夠執行這個立場，不該有衝突。這個部分很簡單，臺灣民主基金會的問題，我們就說到這裡。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：接下來本席要和你談下面一件事情，其實近期國際上有很多討論，大家都在討論一件事，就是關於中共的跨境鎮壓。部長，你有沒有聽過這四個字？"],["林部長佳龍：有的。"],["洪委員申翰：跨境鎮壓這四個字，其實中共的作法是很多元的，包括可能將臺灣人的出生地改成中國，或者是我們也看過的，過去他們曾經派人對我們的駐外人員動粗，騷擾、毆打臺灣的留學生，這些事情都曾經發生。我們也發現，例如今年3月的時候，當時還是駐美代表的蕭美琴副總統，她到捷克的時候，在布拉格機場被中國的外交人員尾隨，甚至是可能發生一些大家都不願意看到的意外。","也包括2000年的時候，我們看到當時駐斐濟的代表被毆打，當時有兩位中國外交人員闖入會場，甚至毆打我們的外交人員。今年4月的時候，我們也看到臺灣的留學生在中國駐美大使謝鋒演講時對他抗議，但是被不明人士拖走，後來發現這個不明人士不是一般人，也不是校方，而是中國的學聯主席。部長，現在各國都在討論中國的跨境鎮壓問題，外交部有沒有準備？"],["林部長佳龍：是，有。當然，我們除了保護國人在國外的安全和人權以外，對於中共想要透過長臂管轄或是所謂的跨境鎮壓，不只是對在海外的中國人，甚至是對其他國家的主權或內政，這個部分我們有積極和一些國家協商，共同應對。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們參考一下美國的作法，其實他們有提出類似跨境鎮壓的法案，這裡面很明確的要求，美國國務院應該每年在人權報告中詳述跨境鎮壓的相關事件、樣態，而且外交部門也要提出應對跨境鎮壓的戰略，編列預算培訓外交人員面對跨境鎮壓的辨識和理解，甚至需要設立跨境鎮壓的通報專線，依照這些通報擬定未來制裁的名單。","不是只有美國這麼做，歐洲理事會在2003年6月也有提出一份文件，談到歐洲理事會對跨境鎮壓反制的措施，包括第一個要建立跨境鎮壓的定義，制定防制的指導方針，再來是根據歐洲人權法院的判例，制定跨境鎮壓防制的建議，讓這些行為受到法律的制裁，讓受害人得到賠償。還有包括Freedom House等國家重要的NGO，其實最近都在談論跨境鎮壓這個主題。部長，剛才本席聽到你說的內容，本席覺得現在外交部針對相關跨境鎮壓議題的因應，好像還是太抽象了。"],["林部長佳龍：是。我想國外對這件事情的因應，以及採取的措施，我們應該積極的研究和合作，臺灣本身也應該要有一個完整的政策規劃。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，臺灣絕對是中國施以跨境鎮壓最核心的對象。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：絕對是最核心的打壓對象。現在西方國家，美國、歐盟或是其他國家，包括NGO都不斷提出報告，本席為什麼這麼關心這個問題？因為我們自己就有國人、僑民很可能會遇到類似的問題，而且可能是他們重點打擊的對象，是他們重點鎮壓、騷擾、監控的對象。所以部長，本席要請你、國安局、國安單位，甚至是僑委會，大家要一起針對跨境鎮壓的問題，提出一個明確的應對策略方案。部長，應該沒有問題吧？"],["林部長佳龍：我們來推動。"],["洪委員申翰：本席覺得可以參考現在在國際上，包括這些專業的人權NGO，包括美國、歐盟目前已經提出的相關文件、作法。但照理來說，我們做這件事情的防範不應該在這些國家之後，我們應該比這些國家更敏感，因為我們是優先被打擊的對象。所以部長，你們多久可以針對這件事情提出一個大致的草案？"],["林部長佳龍：因為這涉及跨部會，我們會向國安會反映，外交部的部分也會先展開研究。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，三個月，可不可以？"],["林部長佳龍：好，可以。"],["洪委員申翰：三個月，不算短吧？對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：好的。"],["洪委員申翰：如果把跨部會的因素考慮進去，我們可以多給一點時間，沒有問題，但這就是臺灣現在在境外可能會遇到的事情，本席希望部長認真地把這件事情當一回事，甚至有需要的時候，我們還可以和這些國際重要的NGO組織一起合作，這樣也可以藉機把臺灣的國際合作網絡建立起來，本席覺得這是一件好事。應該可以吧？"],["林部長佳龍：可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請林德福委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.19971875,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.57471875,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.400343750000001,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.28159375,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.47096875,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.60159375,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.47846875,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.32221875,"end":26.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.31784375,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.21971875,"end":35.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.27846875,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.57346875,"end":38.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.767218750000005,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.06846875,"end":61.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.860968750000005,"end":73.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.85909375,"end":74.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.90534375,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.95159375,"end":98.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.54284375,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.46971875000001,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.83659375,"end":113.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.59534375000001,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.99096875000001,"end":122.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.94846875,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.77471875,"end":128.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.12471875,"end":129.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.77784375000002,"end":134.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.41909375,"end":136.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.73096875000002,"end":138.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.79409375,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.80659375000002,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.97096875,"end":142.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.94534375,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.86909375000002,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.51284375,"end":158.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.71909375,"end":160.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.32221875000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.27534375000002,"end":168.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.97909375,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.91971875000002,"end":172.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.88159375,"end":175.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.53096875,"end":179.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.95221875000001,"end":183.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.05284375000002,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.87971875000002,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.22534375,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.96346875,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.87471875,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.90846875000003,"end":190.802843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我想這個剛剛在講的中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬的這個概念其實我想也不只是賴總統說我們這幾天其實看到大大小小的民調這句話拿去做民調基本上在台灣的民意支持度都是超過六成甚至有部分民調我們看到超過七成所以這代表這其實也是有民意基礎的一句話民意基礎的一個立場"},{"start":99.639,"end":126.592,"text":"那我今天我們在談到民主基金會的問題的時候其實我並不想要談論任何個別的人選的問題但我只想說一件事情民主基金會如果是我們外交非常非常關鍵的資源的話那民主基金會的運作民主基金會經營的方向要不要符合剛剛說的四個堅持裡面中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬這樣的概念該不該"},{"start":128.45,"end":143.638,"text":"應該啊,所以部長今天接下來當然明武基金會的執行長他要怎麼產生那不管誰推薦、誰提名、誰指定、尊重誰我覺得這是一回事,大家都可以推薦"},{"start":145.032,"end":167.309,"text":"韓院長可以推薦或其他的院長也都可以推薦王金平院長也可以推薦誰都可以推薦有各方的我覺得這都很好大家推薦各種人才來但我覺得一個很重要的事情是這一個民主基金會的掌舵者執行長他要是能夠認同中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個立場的我覺得這是關鍵"},{"start":170.051,"end":188.673,"text":"如果他無法認同這個立場或他無法執行這個立場那就會產生在我們整體的外交政策裡面出現很大的憾惡甚至對我們的外交的成效成果很有可能會產生影響那請問最後要負責的是誰"},{"start":191.947,"end":214.999,"text":"總統是國家元首對外代表國家那外交權當然是總統所以我要再強調一次民主基金會的人事任命的問題不是一個黨派的問題這是一個責任政治的問題這是一個責任政治的問題因為如果我們的外交沒有搞好我們的外交資源之間彼此漢格跟衝突大眾會找誰救責"},{"start":216.974,"end":241.079,"text":"會找外交部長啊會找總統啊這是為什麼大家一直說這個執行長的人選需要尊重總統的原因因為總統負責不是因為他是哪一個黨派的問題所以部長我今天不談個別人選我對個別人選沒有意見任何人推薦的人選都可以盡量來推薦但我認為這個執行長的人選他應該要認同"},{"start":248.345,"end":277.691,"text":"中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬這個清清楚楚而且帶有民意基礎的立場應該沒有問題吧沒有問題所以我今天不談個別人選誰推薦的我都不介意但是我們認為他要能夠滿足這個立場他要能夠執行這個立場不該有衝突很簡單就民主基金會的問題我們就講到這個地方那接下來部長我現在要跟你談下面一個事情其實近期國際上面有很多"},{"start":279.997,"end":287.826,"text":"近期國際上有很多的討論都在討論一個是關於中共的跨境鎮壓部長你有沒有聽過這四個字有"},{"start":289.814,"end":311.89,"text":"這四個字跨境鎮壓其實中共的做法其實是很多元的包括可能將台灣人的出生地改成中國或者是我們也看過過去其實他們也曾經派人對我們的駐外人員動粗騷擾毆打台灣的留學生都有我們當然發現比方在今年3月的時候當時還是駐美代表的蕭美琴這個副總統"},{"start":312.711,"end":335.94,"text":"他去到捷克的時候在布拉格機場裡面被中國的外交人員尾隨甚至會發生一些其實大家不願意看到的意外的可能也包括2000年的時候我們看到我們當時駐斐基的代表其實就有兩位中國外交人員闖入會場甚至毆打我們的外交人員今年4月的時候我們也看到台灣的留學生在"},{"start":337.193,"end":338.533,"text":"部長現在各國都在討論中國的跨境鎮壓的問題我們外交部有沒有準備?"},{"start":358.732,"end":371.57,"text":"有當然我們除了保護我們國人在國外的這個安全跟他的人權以外那對應我想中共想要透過一種常備"},{"start":372.972,"end":376.114,"text":"部長我們參考一下現在接下來看那個美國他們其實有提的類似像是一個跨境鎮壓的法案這裡面其實很明確要求"},{"start":400.543,"end":422.009,"text":"美國國務院應該要在每年提在人權報告中詳述跨境鎮壓相關的事件樣態而且外交部門也要提出應對跨境鎮壓的戰略也要編列預算培訓外交人員來面對跨境鎮壓的辨識跟理解甚至需要設立跨境鎮壓的通報的專線依照這些通報的專線來擬定未來制裁的名單這不是只有美國再往下"},{"start":423.916,"end":446.633,"text":"我們在歐洲的理事會2023年的6月其實他有一份文件談到歐洲理事會對跨境鎮壓反制的措施包括第一個要建立跨境鎮壓的定義和制定防制的指導方針再來是根據歐洲人權法院的判例來制定跨境鎮壓防制的建議那要讓這些行為人受到法律的制裁讓受害人得到賠償"},{"start":448.524,"end":463.092,"text":"還有包括Freedom House等等等國際的重要的NGO其實最近都在談論快進增壓這個主題部長剛剛我如果剛才聽你講的話我覺得好像我們現在外交部針對相關快進增壓議題的因應好像還太抽象了"},{"start":464.158,"end":472.444,"text":"部長,臺灣絕對是中國要施以跨境這壓最核心的對象,絕對是最核心的打壓的對象,相比於現在西方國家,美國,歐盟,或者是其他的國家,包括現在NGO都不斷提出報告,"},{"start":494.278,"end":521.19,"text":"我為什麼這麼關心這個問題因為我們自己就有相關的國人僑民等等可能會遇到類似的問題而且可能是他們重點在打擊的對象重點在鎮壓騷擾監控的對象所以部長我覺得要請你跟包括我們的國安局國安單位甚至僑委會大家要一起針對跨境鎮壓的問題提出一個明確的應對的策略的方案"},{"start":522.741,"end":547.5,"text":"部長這應該沒有問題吧我們來推動好不好那我覺得我們可以來參考現在在國際上面包括這些專業的人權NGO包括幾個這個美國歐盟他們目前其實已經出來的相關的文件的做法但照理來說我做這件事情的防範我們不應該在這些國家之後我們照理來說應該比這些國家更敏感因為我們是優先被打擊的對象啊"},{"start":548.16,"end":566.391,"text":"所以部長,多久的時間我們可以把這件事情有一個大致的草案出來?因為這涉及到當然也包括跨部會,那我們來跟國安會反映,我們外交部的部分也會先展開研究部長,三個月可不可以?"},{"start":567.301,"end":567.981,"text":"好,可以。"}]}},{"id":"153389","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153389","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebae4bbcc18d22401731766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744b4b28350de8d176d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:40:59 - 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謝謝 麻煩 法務部長"},{"start":12.957,"end":35.009,"text":"委員好好 部長好 部長 這樣啦齁本來我本來想直接今天要跟你討論一下司法的輔導這個問題齁但是因為剛剛你又講了一堆我本來以為說這國會改革已經翻頁了我們今天大家都不要來談這件事我們就今天早上有記者問我問我想法我就說 完全尊重"},{"start":36.229,"end":64.896,"text":"行政院要不要復役要不要那個以及民進黨團要不要申請釋憲我說這個是憲法的規定我完全尊重我們也不應該有一句不應該的說不可以這麼做的話出來因為這就是法治我們是法治國我是念法律我非常尊重法律但是我覺得翻頁就翻頁了為什麼還要在這邊扯這個那部長我在司法圈20年您的狀況我比其他112位的立委更了解您的狀況"},{"start":66.416,"end":91.897,"text":"更了解您的想法以及您的一些想法的傾向我想我比誰都更了解但是我一直希望一個新的內閣我都期待我們就依法行政然後能夠中立的處理任何一件事情而不是一搭一唱的這樣回答沒關係那我覺得就就算了我還是尊重你是部長但是我覺得"},{"start":93.589,"end":115.727,"text":"今天我來講一個東西我覺得國會改革到現在如果真的還要再來講的話我跟你講我真的覺得執政黨是創意大賽這段時間從迴憲亂政一路延伸到抗中保台、舔共習近平到現在連世界人權都跑出來了"},{"start":116.648,"end":145.31,"text":"這根本就是創意大賽這不是在討論法條啦我就說了90%我們說討論法案的時間都在講抗中保台沒人跟我談法條然後現在對外說黑箱立法都不談法條我說真的我沒有辦法理解還好現在國會都有直播大家可以回去一條一條拿出來放出來聽是誰在亂說話好那再來我還要再講一個東西可不可以不要再秀下線了"},{"start":147.045,"end":173.607,"text":"你拿一個國會特徵組來談是不是違反權力分立我覺得這是不是笑死人中天電視台有一個叫民間特徵組那你說民間怎麼可以私設集團搞特徵組他這是一個理念是一個名詞嘛那你不要叫立法院的什麼特徵組那你叫做超級特徵組可不可以改個名字嘛這跟權力分立有什麼關係部長你可以這樣一搭一唱我真的服了你"},{"start":175.102,"end":197.658,"text":"特徵組的法律依據是法院組織法他是一個法制的機關法制設計下的機關這個立法院他依據自己如果立法成立後的生效後的調查權所進行的調查他把自己叫做我們組一個團體叫立法院的"},{"start":199.136,"end":224.598,"text":"在野特徵組這個跟權力分立有什麼關係部長你不能講這種話我們都念法律的我剛剛在那邊聽我不會去打斷在發言的立委的說話時間但是我沒有辦法接受你剛剛那樣的回答這跟權力分立有什麼關係那如果你這樣講中天的民間特徵組賴麗英主持的那個節目是不是那個就叫民間失色行堂"},{"start":225.643,"end":253.14,"text":"叫做施行正義嗎這就不是嘛這是一個名詞他如果今天國會改革法案過了他就是去行使一個法律上面給他的調查權讓立法委員去行使這個權利嘛那至於在野的立法委員他們想叫什麼名字這個也沒有設在法院組織法裡面也沒有設在任何一個法律裡面請問這個違反什麼權利分立原則部長從你嘴巴講出這種話"},{"start":254.341,"end":271.506,"text":"我這甚至不知道接下來我要怎麼去面對你跟你談這些接下來法律的事情因為我覺得你基本上你的立場就不中立啊不然你告訴我這個違反什麼權力分立原則再來我上次也很欣賞你講的一句話"},{"start":272.788,"end":287.732,"text":"法務部在釋憲之前你們是不能講什麼法條他是不是你們不能做或者是你法務部跳條這個違憲我不幹這是不行的嘛一定是大法官宣告違憲我們才說這個違憲所以不能做所以"},{"start":289.076,"end":289.256,"text":"主席"},{"start":307.236,"end":307.256,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":327.366,"end":350.184,"text":"我真的覺得你會認定說這個是違反權利分立我真的不能接受我完全不能接受那也不要在那邊騙我而且部長我跟您報告在座好多法官檢察官會看直播的也很多法官檢察官很多法律學者你這樣講他們聽了以後會怎麼再嘲笑我們今天在這邊做這件事情"},{"start":352.148,"end":364.83,"text":"所以我沒有辦法接受你認為再也如果成立一個再也自己成立一個特徵組這個叫做違反權力分離我沒有辦法接受而且這個東西也是在如果今天國會無法"},{"start":366.428,"end":388.937,"text":"的立法院調查權成立生效之後他才有可能依據法律去做這個事情那這個又違反了什麼權力分立這個是法務部可以講的嗎你要講至少改天您當大法官的時候那您再來跟我們上課告訴我們這個為什麼違反權力分立我沒意見因為大法官本身就釋憲那今天我真的"},{"start":389.977,"end":404.249,"text":"我跟您報告,我沒有辦法接受您的這個說法另外我剛剛講的,我說真的是創意大賽那另外,說這些法案違反世界人權、違反什麼我剛剛講的什麼違憲亂證,我說這真的是創意大賽"},{"start":410.339,"end":428.335,"text":"今天林卓水會出來講那一句話說這個東西是民進黨奮鬥30年2016年以前的民進黨法案也是這樣就你突然8年之後告訴我這個東西這麼的該死、十惡不赦不但違憲還跟習近平勾串然後還違反世界人權"},{"start":429.176,"end":454.841,"text":"我說天啊那2016年以前你這個執政黨你在幹什麼你竟然要立這個法出來你竟然要搞這樣的立法結果8年後在野黨完成你的當年的志願結果你現在回過頭來說在野黨這麼做是不對我真的聽不下去喔不好意思部長我剛剛講話比較重一點我還是非常尊敬您是我以前的長官但是我真的覺得"},{"start":457.896,"end":474.785,"text":"就是說行政還是要中立啦因為我覺得不管什麼作為國家國家能夠穩定一定是制度是長治久安制度長治久安的狀況就是不管任何政黨執政應該就是走同一套制度"},{"start":476.271,"end":504.194,"text":"我自己今天我不管在哪一個政黨但我覺得我們應該一起對付的是壞人而不是協助那個執政的人這我對於司法的見解啊所以這段時間不管其他的同事跟我談什麼司法的案件我第一件事一定是維護法院以及檢察署的立場我這不能干涉這種個案都不能干涉不能多說我一直以來我個性都這樣所以部長"},{"start":507.796,"end":533.898,"text":"不好意思喔 就是我說比較重但是我剛說的都是憑我良心講的話因為我從心裡我不認為你講一個名詞就叫做違反權利分立所以我才會贏了中天電視台那個節目的例子那如果你要這樣子 那我們我們就說 那是不是 那我們改個名字嘛就不要叫特徵組 叫超級特徵組部長回答嘛 你要回答部長 請問一下 為什麼違反權利分立"},{"start":539.954,"end":540.294,"text":"你剛剛不是這樣講嗎?"},{"start":569.215,"end":596.924,"text":"所以部長我跟你說啦齁你現在我跟你講這是公開直播的我們沒有任何人在帶風向這是公開的我現在就如果你敢在這邊直接講那沒關係你就講齁我現在我現在知道一件我現在看出來一件很明白的事情啦就是有人非常的無聊司法特徵組是法院組織法依據他所設立的"},{"start":598.035,"end":625.621,"text":"那至於民間或者是其他黨派或者是在野的人或者是誰喜歡自己組一個說我們大家來搞一個兄弟會叫做特徵組這個跟違反權力分立都沒有關係這個特徵組跟權力分立是沒有關係法院組是要有沒有規定特徵組跟權力分立沒關係對沒有錯沒有錯但是他剛剛問你的不是這樣他剛剛問你是說在野黨要成立一個在野的特徵組然後在那邊扯權力分立部長"},{"start":627.264,"end":627.284,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":636.363,"end":659.483,"text":"你今天立法院的修法過了之後在被大法官宣告違憲之前其實他的任何作為都是有他的法律依據至於說在野的這些人他們要組一個團隊自己要叫什麼名字那個是他高興就好嘛這個跟權力分立根本沒有任何關係至於"},{"start":660.524,"end":687.658,"text":"立法院的調查權跟司法的調查權彼此之間有沒有權力上面的五權分立上的的矛盾這個由大法官來解釋部長應該是這樣吧所以我說這種我不認同你剛剛說的啦那我覺得如果你要用這個態度一路走下去那沒關係我們也不是傻子啦大家都是念法律出身的那我們就依法論法那"},{"start":690.285,"end":716.335,"text":"如果我的個性就這樣如果我今天在這邊講錯任何一句話歡迎你們就拿法律學者的話來打我那我這個人我不喜歡說謊我不喜歡亂講話我更不喜歡明知故問或明明知道是這樣故意裝作不懂的來帶風向我其實很不屑幹這種事情我所有事情我的個性直來直往嘛做錯事就認錯我個性是這樣子啊"},{"start":717.866,"end":735.578,"text":"不是說有一些人今天法律規定明明不是這樣人家做的明明不是這樣然後可以帶風向扯一些五四三我今天看到的就是這樣子啦所以我上次人家問我問題我才會說說我以前辦過的壞人可能沒有算了那個話不講下去了"},{"start":742.057,"end":748.939,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長,還是想說部長您辛苦了,我知道您的位置是真的不容易,真的蠻辛苦的,謝謝部長。"}]}},{"id":"153387","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153387","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebad00351e6784ac89acb22e1ce6086f58b446d6a815e913744929d091a91415b875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:31:57 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Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:31:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:41:05+08:00","duration":548,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1056,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時32分）主席，請主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委，謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：主委好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：恭喜你。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：我們倆的家直線距離不到10公里，所以應該可以有很良性的溝通。我們先從第1頁的業務報告來看好，不好？關於翻譯的過程，我常常覺得，中央部會層級的翻譯應該要很審慎，所以就第1頁來看，關於原住民族委員會這個部分，排灣語是patjarakacalisian，可是「patjara」的部分我覺得應該是介係詞，所以應該不可以跟「kacalisian」放在一起。「patjara」就是「about」，意為「about indigenous」，把「patjarakacalisian」放在一起的時候，我們會覺得這個字非常冗長。很多原住民學生或者一般人學習原住民語言的時候覺得很困難的地方就是單字太長，可是其實並不是單字太長，而是因為你們不知道怎麼分段落，所以針對報告第1頁，我要提醒的部分是這個。","第二是我希望主委能夠親自、大聲地念一下你的名字，好不好？也就是下面報告人這個部分。"],["曾主任委員智勇：下面是ti Ljaucu．Zingrur。"],["盧委員縣一：嗯！再來呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：Ljaucu．Zingrur。"],["盧委員縣一：然後？後面那個是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：名字是Ljaucu．Zingrur。"],["盧委員縣一：對，但為什麼後面還有這些？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不對啦！那個應該是主任委員的意思吧。"],["盧委員縣一：是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：好。","我是希望翻譯的時候能夠比較確實。如果會誤解這是你名字的全部，就會懷疑怎麼念不出來或是什麼情況，以後在取名字的時候要不要按照你這個模式來取，那以後我們的名字就特別長？所以就用一個指標性來看，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我會特別注意，再修一下。"],["盧委員縣一：那我們從第2頁來看。在原住民專法、身分認定這個部分，我上次提過，臺東平地山胞中，包含很多排灣族平地山胞，甚至是魯凱族平地山胞，其實有意願成為山地山胞、山地原住民。在這部分的門檻上，他們能不能就意願來申請？如果說有困難度，困難度在哪裡？比如說大武鄉、太麻里鄉有很多平原的原住民，可是他們確實是排灣族人，你覺得這一屆期能不能完成？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，目前的法令是不可以，如果已是山地原住民或平地原住民，就不能……"],["盧委員縣一：不能按照他的意願嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：現在既然已經要解決平埔原住民的問題了，可不可以順便解決這個問題？因為這個問題懸而未決。"],["曾主任委員智勇：這要先修法欸！"],["盧委員縣一：是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：好，那我們來努力。","第二個就是在取得原住民部落同意這個部分，目前的方式只有部落會議，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：可不可以用電詢、簽同意書，或者有一個部落app？很多人因為在外工作，沒有辦法回到部落，所以如果部落app有一個「同意」的按鈕讓他send出來的話，我們就不用那麼費盡心思地開部落會議，而且部落會議每次開都開不成，是不是？可以研議嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們有委託的設計，他可以委託。"],["盧委員縣一：是，希望相關辦法可以儘早出來，不然每次都卡在這裡。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：接下來是原住民族土地使用規則，這是大家都很擔心的問題，我就大概歸類一下。第一，現在它到底可以解決我什麼問題、土地的什麼問題？第二個是既有土地的保障跟未來的方向在哪裡？是不是可以就近解決這些？我問這兩個問題就好：114年5月1號實施以後，對於我的土地可以解決什麼樣的問題？第二個是我現有土地的保障跟未來的規劃。這樣就好了，不然永遠都卡在農一、農二這些問題，老人家根本就不知道在講什麼，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是要解決耕地不足還有居住不足的部分。"],["盧委員縣一：對，每次開座談會或者到部落宣導的時候，他們聽完一遍，頭腦又暈了，不知道在講什麼。你們就針對他個人的部分會不會改變加以說明就好了！這樣是不是會比較容易？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：我們翻到第4頁，就原住民發展的部分，現在原住民地區大概都是用合作社的方式，但都原愈來愈多，剛剛是講占50.2%，召委甚至說已經到65%了，是不是可以規劃轉變成原住民的銀行，辦理微利創業貸款、微利公共住宅這些業務？是不是朝這種可行性與方向來做，把所有儲蓄合作社整合起來？有沒有這方面的規劃？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我請處長回答。"],["宋處長麗茹：跟委員報告，針對原住民族綜合發展基金各項貸款，其實有分事業型貸款、甚至在儲戶社也都有相關貸款。"],["盧委員縣一：我是希望能夠朝向以比較大的原住民銀行向中央爭取經費啦！不然，若只是這樣的層級，我覺得沒有辦法解決都會型原住民的問題，可以嗎？你們努力一下，不好意思喔！"],["宋處長麗茹：我想在這個部分我們再……"],["盧委員縣一：第二部分是原住民就醫的問題。因為他們在部落看病的時候常常不用錢，可是到都會區看病就要付部分負擔跟掛號費。我希望他的身分不會因為到了都會就不是原住民了，所以這部分能夠從在原住民地區看病不用錢，擴展至到都會區看病也應該免部分負擔，這部分要規劃嘛！因為這點造成很多族人在就醫上的負擔跟不公平啦！因為他本來在原住民地區不用錢，為什麼到平地地區、例如長庚看病就要錢，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，這個問題我們會再跟衛福部協商，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：因為時間的關係，我再提我們一直在講的原住民族博物館。原語會、原文會都要搬到桃園，還有一段時間──8年，費用是58億，但我想起好像沒有聽到未來的宿舍。高雄長庚在蓋的時候是先蓋員工宿舍，我們的博物館應該也要有啊！因為將來那些工作人員也都是原住民，也一定是從全國各地去的啊！是不是應該朝這個方向？費用是不是應該再增設或寬列未來員工住宿的地方？","第二點就是我非常擔心其設計元素沒有原住民的題材，如同常常有人說行人地獄，也就是國人覺得在都市道路行人沒辦法跑步、沒有辦法很安全，我們在部落甚至看到一些圖騰根本不屬於那個族群，顏色也用得不對。我上次去花蓮時看到八部合音、也就是八個人唱歌的表演，卻很像西洋人在唱八部合音，就是有這樣的謬誤啦！也就是說，在規劃、設計元素時應該很審慎，用原住民的人才規劃未來的方向，而不是讓我們去原住民國家博物館看的時候，卻只覺得很像去一般博物館，根本就沒有凸顯它的價值，所以這部分你要強烈地要求，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會，我成立籌備處的時候會一一要求這些剛才委員所提出的意見。"],["盧委員縣一：好。","最後一頁第10頁，關於原住民歧視的問題，我希望能夠比照性騷擾處理。很多人在一般的工作地方、崗位工作，或許是警察、或許是軍人，都一直受到歧視，但他不知道怎麼申訴，我們的學生也是一樣。如果對於性騷擾大家都那麼重視，我覺得對原住民的歧視也應該列為跟性騷擾一樣的重視等級，不然會造成很多人沒有辦法好好說出心裡面的話。可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["盧委員縣一：希望你們這樣研議，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢，也謝謝曾主委的回應。","繼續請鄭正鈐委員。鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.379718750000002,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.396593750000001,"end":9.430343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.582218750000003,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.14221875,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.30221875,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.348468750000002,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.200343750000002,"end":26.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.625968750000002,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.549093750000004,"end":33.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.96659375,"end":35.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.244718750000004,"end":40.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.91909375,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.58971875,"end":45.846593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.31909375,"end":49.002218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.643468750000004,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.119718750000004,"end":53.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.19971875,"end":56.157218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.017843750000004,"end":57.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":61.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.844093750000006,"end":62.164718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.721593750000004,"end":68.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.10034375000001,"end":69.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.31534375000001,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.89659375000001,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.06471875000001,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.43971875000001,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.65034375,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.77596875,"end":95.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.71221875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.98221875,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.91034375000001,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.31096875,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.31034375,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.86284375000001,"end":105.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.21284375,"end":106.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.71909375000001,"end":105.93846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.25409375000001,"end":112.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.10159375,"end":117.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.27846875,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.70034375,"end":118.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.12221875,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.13909375,"end":118.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.43721875000001,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.87846875,"end":141.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.57846875,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.75096875,"end":145.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.33721875,"end":156.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.96846875,"end":159.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.73596875,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.31784375,"end":164.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.89971875,"end":166.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.53221875,"end":172.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.27409375000002,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.63221875000002,"end":177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.82596875000002,"end":187.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.81284375,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.07346875000002,"end":189.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.40221875,"end":197.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.90721875,"end":198.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.24034375000002,"end":202.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.64909375000002,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.04971875,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.78284375,"end":222.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.96659375000002,"end":229.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.08784375000002,"end":231.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.72909375,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.79659375000003,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.52159375000002,"end":236.82096875000002},{"speaker":"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Katsarishan把字放在一起的時候會覺得這個字非常冗長也就會針對我們的很多原住民的學生或者是一般人他要學原住民的時候會覺得很困難的地方就是單字太長可是並不是單字太長是因為你不知道怎麼給他分段落所以這個第一頁這個部分要提醒的部分是這個"},{"start":84.502,"end":112.069,"text":"第二個是我希望主委能夠親自很大聲的念一下你的名字好不好在下面這個報告人這個部分這個下面是第一老鼠老鼠引入了再來老鼠引入了然後後面那個是那個名字是老鼠引入了對那為什麼後面還有這些這個是不對的吧"},{"start":115.094,"end":116.254,"text":"主任委員主任委員主任委員"},{"start":147.971,"end":166.366,"text":"懲罰身份認定這個部分我上次有提過臺東的平地三胞很多排灣族的平地三胞甚至是盧卡族的平地三胞其實他們是有意願成為山地三胞山地原住民那這個部分是不是在門檻上面能不能就意願來去申請如果說困難度是困難度在哪裡"},{"start":167.594,"end":194.73,"text":"現在比如說大武鄉、太馬里鄉有很多是平原的可是它確實是我們的排灣族人的話你覺得有沒有一個在這一屆請能不能完成目前的根委包括目前的法令是不可以啦就是你被定你是山地原住民、平地原住民你不能就是說這個就不能按照它的意願嗎對因為現在我們已經要我們已經要解決平埔原住民的問題可不可以順便來解決這個問題因為這個問題是懸而未決"},{"start":200.281,"end":209.051,"text":"是嗎?好,那我們來努力。第二個就是我們在取得原住民部落同意這個部分,他方式只有部落會議,目前是不是?"},{"start":210.856,"end":229.187,"text":"是是所以我們可以可不可以用電訊的或者是簽同意書的或者是說有個部落的APP很多人在外面工作他沒有辦法回到部落他說部落的APP有個同意的一個按鈕的話他就就send出來的話我們就不用那麼費金心思的來開部落會議而且部落會議每次開都開不成"},{"start":230.137,"end":238.08,"text":"原住民族土地使用規則。大家都很擔心的問題,大概我就歸類一下。第一個,現在他到底可以解決我什麼問題,土地的什麼問題。第二個是"},{"start":254.406,"end":278.659,"text":"我既有的土地的保障跟未來的一個方向在哪裡是不是可以就近的來解決這些這兩個問題就好現在你變成14年5月1號實施以後我的土地可以解決什麼樣的問題第二個是我現在的土地的保障跟未來的規劃這樣就好了不然你永遠都卡在農醫農人這些老人家根本就不知道在講在講什麼好不好"},{"start":279.861,"end":302.97,"text":"就是要解決耕作的這個耕地的不足的還有居住的這個不足的部分因為每次開座談會或者到部落宣導的時候聽完一遍他頭腦又暈了然後又不知道又在講什麼但是就針對他個人的部分會不會改變就好了是不是這樣會比較容易是我們分到第第四頁"},{"start":304.949,"end":328.235,"text":"就都市原住民發展的部分我是希望說我們現在的那個原住民地區大概都是用合作社的方式嘛那是不是就都我們都越來越多剛才講50.2甚至已經我們招委說已經到65了是不是我們可以規劃我們能夠變成原住民的銀行然後一個唯利無論是唯利創業貸款唯利公屋住宅唯利的一個創業貸款這些"},{"start":331.377,"end":339.154,"text":"我們是不是有一個可行性的方向來做我把我們所有的合作社這些儲蓄合作社能夠整合起來有沒有這樣這方面的規劃"},{"start":344.025,"end":364.464,"text":"委員報告那針對原住民綜合發展基金的各項貸款其實我們有分有事業型貸款甚至在儲戶社都有相關的那我是希望說我們能夠能夠朝向比較大的一個原住民銀行的來來去跟中央來爭取經費了不然你只是這樣的一個"},{"start":365.325,"end":386.779,"text":"曾經我覺得很像沒有辦法解決都會寫那個問題可以嗎我們努力一下不好意思第二個就是我們原住民就醫的問題因為他常常在部落看病的時候是不用錢可是到都會去看病就用錢就要付部分負擔跟掛號費我希望他的身份不會因為他到了都會他就不是原住民了"},{"start":387.319,"end":410.664,"text":"所以希望他這個部分能夠擴展到我在原住民地區看病不用錢到都會區應該也免部分負擔這個要來規劃因為造成很多主委在就業上面那個負擔跟跟那個所謂不公平啦因為他在他在原住民地區本來就不用錢了為什麼到平基到到長庚看病就要錢呢是不是好這個會跟衛福部在我們再來協商好不好"},{"start":413.032,"end":439.325,"text":"因為時間的關係我在提那個我們一直在講的那個原住民族博物館因為我們原委會原委員會都要搬到桃園那既然這個時間還有一個時間8年那現在那個費用是58億那可是我上次在想好像沒有聽到未來的宿舍你看高雄長庚在蓋的時候他是先蓋員工宿舍呢那我們國立那個博物館他應該也要有啊"},{"start":439.685,"end":454.395,"text":"因為將來的那些工作人員也都是原住民他們一定是從全國各地去的是不是應該是這樣朝這個方向你這個費用是不是應該要再增設或者說匡列這個我們未來員工的一個住宿的一個地方"},{"start":454.975,"end":482.362,"text":"二、我非常擔心它的設計元素沒有原住民的題材。因為我們常常有人會說行人地獄,就是我們目前國人的那個都市的那個道路常常會覺得行人沒辦法跑步,沒有辦法很安全。然後甚至在我們部落看到一些圖騰啊,根本就不是那個族群的,然後那個顏色也用不對。我上次去花蓮看到那個八步合音的那個八個人在那邊唱歌的,那個很像是西安人在唱八步合音。就會有這樣的一個"},{"start":484.163,"end":499.412,"text":"謬誤啦就是說你在規劃設計的元素應該要很審慎要用我們原住民的人才去規劃未來的一個方向不是去國家博物館看的時候很像很像是去一般的博物館根本就沒有凸顯他的價值所以這個部分你要強烈的要求可以嗎"},{"start":500.377,"end":514.249,"text":"會 因為我們籌備處的時候會一一要求這些剛才委員所提的一些最後一頁第十頁就是關於我們原住民歧視的問題就是我希望能夠比照性騷擾這個部分很多人在"},{"start":515.41,"end":539.477,"text":"一般的工作地方﹑崗位工作﹑或者是警察或是軍人都會受到歧視﹑他不知道怎麼去申訴。我們的學生也是一樣。所以如果說新燒肉大家都那麼重視,我覺得就我們的原住民的歧視應該要一般跟那個新燒肉一樣的一個重視的一個等級,不然會造成我們很多人沒有辦法好好的說出他心裡面的話,可以嗎?可以。來這樣演繹,謝謝。"},{"start":543.41,"end":543.43,"text":"盧縣一"}]}},{"id":"153386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153386","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba23562f40587a598a1766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e9137444dc9c27a7575cebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:33:37 - 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"text":"另外花一點點時間不好意思我要跟主委講因為主委接受媒體採訪談到就是你談到核電的重要性你也談到說清電的重要性但是也想跟主委讓主委瞭解"},{"start":305.153,"end":322.552,"text":"國際能源署他的預估2050年全球的清電的占比是1%而國發會做出來的也根據為了要符合我們2050的淨零排放的目標做出來的清電的占比 諸位知道是多少嗎?"},{"start":326.564,"end":350.936,"text":"9到12%9到12% 主委你覺得這數字有沒有怪怪的?如果全球,因為全球都要禁零排放,不是只有台灣才要嗎?如果全球做出來是1%但是我們國發會當然為了要配合,因為不能做核電了,怎麼來補充呢?所以做出9到12%你有沒有感覺1%跟9到12%台灣會不會怪怪的?我們會不會太過的高估?好,因為你要去中研院去找廖院長"},{"start":352.077,"end":375.191,"text":"中研院的他也是針對淨零排放的科技的政策建議書你知道2050年他的建議是多少嗎?清電的百分比要多少嗎?您知道嗎?好我來告訴你因為我時間我不要達到四分之一可能嗎?達到四分之一國際百分之一我們"},{"start":377.831,"end":399.384,"text":"國發會預估9%到12%我以10%好了10倍然後中研院的建議是達到4分之1所以你就知道我希望讓那個諸位有一些概念如果我們做一個完全高於而且超出世界趨勢的預期你就會知道我們的這樣的規劃會是怪怪的"},{"start":401.986,"end":402.006,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":432.193,"end":432.637,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"153385","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153385","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba4fad5278ebc3cd239542594461f30c0b446d6a815e9137443d14f17e9fe3e1c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:33:33 - 11:40:52","影片長度":"00:07:19","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會（事由：「高級中等教育修法暨108課綱實施檢討」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:33:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:40:52+08:00","duration":439,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.63784375,"end":222.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.66284375,"end":364.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.00346875,"end":371.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.53409375,"end":373.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.86284375,"end":437.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.05534375,"end":438.96659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.656,"end":20.449,"text":"感謝召委安排今天的公聽會我作為不分區立法委員其實所有區域的選民所有的民眾都是我所關注的那這段時間不管上任前上任後我最多收到的建議以及關注確實就是108課綱的議題"},{"start":22.61,"end":37.918,"text":"這個議題一直受到很多的學生家長和老師們的高度關注我認為今天的公聽會除了檢討108課綱的施行問題以外更重要的是藉由這次的機會也來收集聆聽跟瞭解各界對於108課綱施行的意見作為未來課綱的參考依據不管新的課綱是叫做未來課綱還是118課綱我們都應該務實的面對學生家長以及社會各界的批評指教當然還有期待"},{"start":51.565,"end":79.879,"text":"前幾天教育部在業務報告當中提到數位學習以及AI相關的科技應用將是下一波課綱研修的重要議題目前正要啟動下一波課綱研修的前置作業為了因應時代的變遷新科技發展以及國家重要的政策將與時俱進的去把數位學習以及人工智慧納入課綱本席對此固然表示肯定但是也要向教育部提出"},{"start":80.719,"end":97.237,"text":"兩要一不要的重要提醒兩要要AI要空間一不要不要不溝通不討論就貿然施行首先雖然教育部一再的強調希望學生不要在製作學習履歷檔案的過程當中去花費任何的金錢"},{"start":98.118,"end":121.53,"text":"但是根據民間團體AdYouth發布的2024年108課綱觀察報告當中指出仍有高達12%的學生曾經花錢製作學習歷程的檔案當中購買生成式AI的服務比例是最高的花費大約在百元到千元之間其餘八成沒有花錢的學生當中則可能有一定的比例"},{"start":122.39,"end":138.578,"text":"使用免費AI的工具因此本席對於教育部的第一個提醒就是要AI而且要AI平權當越來越多的學生在製作學習歷程檔案的過程當中使用AI工具教育部應該明確的規則在製作學習歷程檔案的時候可以使用AI工具的範圍是什麼"},{"start":144.341,"end":164.629,"text":"需不需要清楚的揭示與AI協作的紀錄以及比例到底占比多高屬於人類的產出占比多高屬於AI的產出唯有清楚的揭示AI參與的程度並且留下紀錄才對學生們而言是一場公平的競爭否則有非常多的學生"},{"start":165.109,"end":184.141,"text":"到目前為止可能都還不知道AI能夠如何的運用那麼也就造成了不公平的狀態也避免老師在評選的過程當中產生爭議另外一方面教育部也應該關注AI工具可能產生隱性助長教育M型化的現象"},{"start":185.424,"end":201.801,"text":"加進好的學生可以使用最高級最貴的付費版AI工具產出精美的學習成果加進不夠好的學生只能使用免費的AI工具甚至不懂得如何使用產出相對粗糙的作品"},{"start":202.341,"end":220.963,"text":"我們到底是在鼓勵學生自我學習成長還是鼓勵學生比較存款的高低教育部應該及早重視AI平權的議題並且研議相關的協助方案無論家庭收入的狀況如何都應該賦予學生平等取得AI工具協作學習的機會"},{"start":222.785,"end":248.679,"text":"接下來也希望想詢問一下在座的官員或者朋友們你是在幾歲的時候確定自己的未來志向呢根據108課綱觀察報告的調查近六成的學生會依據想要申請的科系朝向特定目標來製作學習歷程檔案但是現行的制度下每年只能上傳6項高中三年一共只能上傳18項有許多學生反映"},{"start":250.74,"end":274.017,"text":"不同的階段高一高二都在探索志向還不了解但是一邊面對茫然的探索生涯的過程一邊還要受迫於上傳學習履歷成果的時間壓力這種無助感真的希望在場的官員們可以感同身受假設你們要在高一階段馬上就決定未來的志向這有多困難連我自己都做不到我也沒有想過這個時候會站在這個國會的殿堂"},{"start":277.319,"end":302.68,"text":"來跟大家進行學習跟交流那所以呢我想在評鑑的時候能夠更加了解學習的歷程而且有更加彈性的方式來加注跟修改這是我對教育部的第二個提醒就是要空間這個空間不只是要有彈性修改的空間同時上傳檔案的空間也拜託給予增加學習的歷程的檔案大小不應該只侷限於PDF 4MB"},{"start":304.501,"end":322.293,"text":"現在大家拿出智慧型手機拍攝一張照片就已經到6MB了各位可以想像一下4MB的文件檔PDF Word到底能放多少東西教育部的官網說可以放15張照片我本來也覺得這是個理由但是我質詢以後我收到偏鄉的孩子傳相關的email告訴我"},{"start":324.855,"end":338.251,"text":"很多人是不知道如何用壓縮的方式來壓縮這些檔案他們遇到的只是不斷的上傳不了不斷的發生錯誤所以我想這個一定要來改進更不用講影音檔只能上傳10MB"},{"start":340.834,"end":362.532,"text":"720P的影片只能上傳20秒1080P只能上傳不到9秒鐘我們現在最新的智慧型手機都是4K了上傳不到5秒的內容我們要如何理解到學生的能力更不用講即使體系的學生這是他們非常重要的表達方式所以一定要讓他們可以自由的表達而且提供相應的彈性空間"},{"start":365.083,"end":370.449,"text":"最後想要提醒教育部的一不要就是不要不溝通不討論不溝通不討論"},{"start":373.905,"end":396.654,"text":"很可能會造成許多許多人的關注與關心不溝通不討論沒有共識的情況之下貿然增加學生以及老師的負擔雖然本席對於118課綱考慮納入數位學習人工智慧表示肯定但是回顧過去教育部過往的做法已經現在有基層的老師開始擔心"},{"start":398.275,"end":420.692,"text":"會不會又要在過去要追求雙語投入了一大堆的資源設立了一大堆的KPI結果英語也不好國語也不好後來又要來說我們的雙語不代表只是國語跟英語未來我們會不會數位學習又有相關的亂象以後又要改叫多元學習假數位學習假AI學習之名又要來行教育"},{"start":421.032,"end":421.052,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153384","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153384","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebacd42d91b20dc4ccbcb22e1ce6086f58b446d6a815e9137445cc478b7cbe24b1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:05:57 - 11:16:04","影片長度":"00:10:07","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:05:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:16:04+08:00","duration":607,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":938,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時6分）謝謝主席，請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["許委員宇甄：曾主委，我想請教你，關於原住民族自治法，你在書面報告第五頁有提到，行政院曾經五次送請立法院審議皆無法獲致共識，足見推動原住民族自治法的艱鉅。請問主委，民進黨過去八年有沒有提出原住民族自治法草案到立法院審議？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有？為什麼？你的報告裡面不是寫曾經有五次嗎？但是過去八年民進黨一次都沒有提出原住民族自治法的草案，為什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：後來沒有是因為就改用分流立法的方式來進行。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我想請教一下，賴清德總統說他會找原住民及社會各界一起討論，並找出最好的作法讓原住民落實自治，其實原住民族基本法第四條也有明定，請問你們什麼時候要跟原住民及社會各界討論，何時可以提出原住民自治法草案送交立法院審議？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，原住民自治真的是不容易啦，但是至少到目前為止，我們有先找幾個族，譬如找太魯閣跟魯凱先做討論，看看這些比較容易取得共識的族群是不是要先來做，目前這兩個族也算是討論得比較有一點點進度啦！"],["許委員宇甄：總共要跟多少族討論？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們陸續會跟十六族來討論，像雅美還有卑南也還是在討論。"],["許委員宇甄：如果以這個速度來算，過去八年你們跟兩個族討論，那這樣的話，還要多久的時間才有可能討論完？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們儘快來完成幾個族群，如果是比較……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道主委剛上任，我剛剛也聽了很多委員質詢，大概主委是很勇於任事，所以你都一直講儘快、儘快，但是儘快的意思就是沒有一個時程，所以還是希望原民會能夠訂出時程。","還有你剛剛提到的分流立法，以分流立法來說，原住民族基本法第二十條有規定，其實原住民也希望政府能夠早一點制定原住民族土地及海域法，就是依據分流立法的概念，一直說分流立法可以保障原住民土地跟海域的權益，但是你們分流分到最後，現在原住民族土地及海域法有制定嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：還沒有嘛！你們現在是不想制定這個法案？是賴清德總統的想法？還是主委您的想法？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會啦，我們還會討論，不會不讓……我們還是要討論。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛你講到分流立法的概念，可是我們現在看到的是分流立法分到最後什麼法都沒定，所以應該要回到原住民族自治法這個部分，不要再用分流立法的方式，因為分流立法到目前為止還是什麼都沒制定啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，請主委回去之後要審慎地考慮。","另外，主委您在報告的第一頁就說要依據憲法法庭判決的結果，完成原住民身分法的修法或另訂專法，讓平埔族可以取得原住民的身分。憲法法庭給的期限是114年10月27號之前要完成，請問原民會目前是朝著原住民身分法的修法，還是制定專法來處理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們是朝制定專法來進行。"],["許委員宇甄：既然要朝制定專法來進行的話，剛剛也很多委員提到，這對於原住民產生的衝擊非常地大，不管是各方面。接下來我也要跟主委探討如何保障平地原住民跟山地原住民的權益，因為賴清德總統去年曾經請原民會要審慎地評估還有積極地處理平埔族正名之後的後續法制工作，讓平埔族的身分認同感獲得保障，而且也要依據各原住民族客觀的需求，以國家資源合理分配為原則，回復平埔族獲得民族身分之後的相關權利。請問一下，主委您剛剛有提到平埔族的人數現在大概是98萬人……"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["許委員宇甄：目前山地原住民和平地原住民加起來是59萬人，所以平埔族取得原住民的身分之後，既有的資源會不會被稀釋？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們是先讓平埔取得原住民的身分，至於權利跟義務，我們後續還要再做一些……"],["許委員宇甄：從剛剛提到的人數比例，你就知道原來的山原和平原加起來是59萬，而平埔族就有98萬了，如果以這樣的資源分配的話，很難不去稀釋到我們原來原住民的一些資源。而且依照賴清德總統的邏輯，平埔族取得原住民的身分之後，主委認為原民會的預算要增加多少才夠用？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果是這樣的話，大概可能要到200億了！"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，那200億的預算要從哪裡來？"],["曾主任委員智勇：從法制面來講，我是跟院裡面做報告，依法來編這樣的預算。"],["許委員宇甄：在目前都還不知道的狀況之下，主委第一個要推動的就是平埔族的正名，也就是推動原住民身分法，其實都還沒有經過審慎的評估，如果你現在說預算要增加200億，那就會排擠到其他預算，這個部分其實可能都沒有辦法像主委講得這麼圓滿，並不是現在因為想要正名平埔族，所以後續的問題都可以自然地解決，我覺得這些都要審慎地評估，而不是一味地說我先來推動，讓他們正名，其實正名之後，後續就會面臨到這麼多問題，包括資源的問題、預算的問題。還有，請教一下，原住民的原住民保留地，他們是不是也可以購買了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：只有原住民才可以購買原住民保留地。"],["許委員宇甄：對，那平埔族呢？他們可不可以購買？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個還沒有討論到……"],["許委員宇甄：我就是點出幾個問題啦，我現在只是點出這兩個問題，可能都已經很窒礙難行了，所以這個問題茲事體大，請主委回去之後一定要審慎地評估，不要因為這是賴總統的政見，就一定要把它完成，而是要真正能夠照顧到平埔族、照顧到山原跟平原的權益。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。另外再請教一下，針對剛才提到的原住民保留地是不是可以購買，如果按照您剛剛提到的邏輯，原則上如果平埔族具有原住民的身分之後，他應該是可以購買，請問這會不會導致原保地的價格飆漲，讓實際生活在部落的原住民買不起原保地？"],["曾主任委員智勇：按照現行規定的話，他還不能買啦！"],["許委員宇甄：對，但如果正名完之後呢？他成為原住民的話，他可不可以買？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果法律另外有定的話，當然他就可以買，如果沒有定的話，他就不能買。"],["許委員宇甄：按照你現在的邏輯，平埔族可以取得原住民的身分，他既然有原住民身分，他照理說可以買原保地，如果他可以購買原保地，可能就會造成原來的原保地價格飆漲，讓大家都買不起。","還有就是現在原住民的參政權、教育權、工作權要怎麼獲得保障？現有原住民的參政權，你看比如立委有六席，還有各地不管是議員、代表，我們本來都有一些原住民的名額，現在你把平埔族正名之後，這些參政權你要怎麼保障？教育權、工作權要怎麼保障？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就立法委員的部分是要修憲的，至於地方制度法的就是回歸到地方制度法，就是地方縣市議員要怎麼選就要回歸到地方制度法……"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是你講的是法制面，要怎麼去保障？是名額要增加，還是會去排擠到現有的名額？可能到時候都要請原民會這邊審慎來評估，以上，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝主委的回答。","主委，我真的實在是……今天宇甄質詢的這個問題，是真的很重要的一個問題，而且您在今天的報告也列為第一個部分，你在今年9月底要把法律草案函報行政院，11月底要通過行政院後函送大院，感覺你好像都還沒有準備好，我們真的是有點擔心，希望你好好地準備一下。","我們現在就處理臨時提案，總共有兩案，我們請議事人員宣讀。","一、","案由：因應移居非原住民族地區原住民面臨之各種問題，政府實應加強對都市地區原住民族權益保障。惟，如何避免因加強對都市地區原住民族權益保障，使都市化、磁吸效應加劇，反造成原鄉人口老化、部落空洞化問題。又，都市地區原住民族發展條例草案之立法，現有各委員提案版本內容規範不一、層面廣泛，爰請原住民族委員會邀集相關部會、地方政府與都市地區原住民族團體、部落代表等召開公聽會，聽取各界意見，以使對都市地區原住民族權益之保障與協助更加周延可行。","提案人：王美惠　　蘇巧慧　　黃　捷　　李柏毅　　張宏陸　　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　陳　瑩　　","二、","有鑑於原民會出版主委個人施政專刊，產生預算科目名不符實之疑慮。","據此，要求原住民族委員會每年9月15日比照經濟委員會各部會，制訂「相關預算科目細部計畫說明表」，寫清楚預算科目、績效指標、預期效益等相關事項，確保預算名實相符。","提案人：高金素梅　　　許宇甄　　牛煦庭　　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　"],["主席：好，我們討論一下第1案，大家有沒有意見？原民會？但是在沒有意見之前，我是不是來詢問一下，去年度其實已經辦了非常多的場次，對不對？來，請處長來回應一下，辦了幾次？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：因為當時我們委託政治大學，他們其實總共辦了7場次。"],["主席：已經辦過7場次了，對不對？然後研討會也辦過，對不對？辦了幾次？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：研討會辦1次。"],["主席：去年也委託，你們也把這個提案提出來過，對不對？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：去年我們是有先跟行政院的林萬億政務委員報告過草案的內容。"],["主席：你現在可不可以說明一下到底有什麼窒礙難行跟困難的地方？因為現在就是有我們的委員提案，希望你們再邀集相關部會、地方政府跟都市地區的原住民團體、部落代表召開公聽會，你覺得這個公聽會召開完了以後，會解決現在一些問題嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：因為目前這個草案的內容都有涉及到地方政府執掌的一些事項，比如說有些部分是需要地方政府去訂定一些後續的法規，然後甚至有些部分也涉及到地方政府的預算編列，所以這部分確實可能還需要再跟地方政府進一步溝通。"],["主席：所以，你認為我們要辦幾場的公聽會才能夠解決這些問題？還是，我們公聽會就算是辦完了，很多的問題還是沒有辦法解決？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：辦公聽會，我們會儘量跟地方政府達成共識，因為有些部分可能還是需要中央政府的協助，我們也可以透過公聽會去釐清彼此之間的一個……"],["主席：那中央政府要幫忙協助什麼東西？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：有些部分是預算的編列，因為這個部分都原條例的內容，其實……"],["主席：上次你們討論過的這個預算，到底要增加多少？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：預算的部分，因為目前我們已經有一個都市原住民族發展方案在那個地方執行了，那個是一個跨部會的方案，它總共會有七十幾億的預算，即未來五年會有七十幾億的預算會投入到都市地區原住民，所以預算的部分不會增加很多，應該幾乎都是現有的。"],["主席：所以這樣子好不好？美惠委員，我是尊重你們的提案，但是我們是不是在這提案當中，也請原民會之前召開過了幾次的研討會，還有很多的公聽會，然後也委託研究過這個部分，能不能也請他們提供一下報告及數據給我們？這樣子的話，我們在場的各委員才會清楚知道，未來我們推動這個草案的時候要解決哪幾個大的問題，可以嗎？"],["王委員美惠：可以，可以！都是為了原住民好的，都可以。"],["主席：可以，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：同意，那就加進去吧！"],["主席：對，我們加進去，好不好？我們把剛剛召委提的這幾個部分用文字來寫進去，明確請你們提供，好不好？我們請原民會來把文字擬具一下，可以嗎？好，謝謝。","好，臨時提案第2案大家有沒有意見？對，就是說我們希望原民會能夠……對不起，「經濟委員會各部會」如果不要寫也沒問題，就是說「每年9月15日以前，制訂『相關預算科目細部計畫說明表』，寫清楚預算科目、績效指標、預期效益等相關事項，確保預算名實相符」，可以嗎？請問一下宏陸委員。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得把「比照經濟委員會各部會」刪掉。"],["主席：對，我拿掉，我知道，所以就是「據此，要求原住民族委員會在每年9月15日，制訂『相關預算科目細部計畫說明表』，寫清楚預算科目、績效指標，預期效益等相關事項，確保預算名實相符」可以嗎？好，那原民會有沒有意見？"],["王委員美惠：好啦，這樣好啦，還有什麼意見嗎？"],["主席：「15日前」，好不好？對，再加一個「前」。"],["王委員美惠：來，原民會，改這樣……"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有意見。"],["王委員美惠：沒有意見，好。"],["主席：以後都要比照辦理，好，謝謝。","所以現在臨時提案第1案我們來加一下文字。把增加的文字說明一下。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：我們在原來的提案文字後面加上：並請原住民族委員會提供歷來辦理座談會、研討會及委託研究之資料，提供給內政委員會各委員參考。"],["主席：不僅提供資料，你們要整理一下，因為我想在場委員們看太多這些公聽會的資料，看不完了，你們要整理完，好不好？對，有幾個問題點，然後要解決的、要注意的，中央各部會有哪一些人要來協助，可以嗎？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：報告委員，我們把第一句改成：並請原住民族委員會提供並整理歷來辦理座談會、研討會及委託研究之資料給內政委員會各委員參考……"],["主席：還有公聽會的。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：因為我們這之前都是用座談會的方式。"],["主席：所以你們沒有開過公聽會？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：公聽會沒有。"],["主席：OK！就是座談會而已，是不是？好。"],["王委員美惠：以前都是座談會……"],["主席：我想請問一下委員，我們是要開幾場公聽會比較好呢？你上面要不要寫？因為你只有講說地方政府，還有相關部會、部落代表要召開公聽會聽取各界意見，並沒有寫幾場，會不會就一直延後？柏毅委員。"],["李委員柏毅：我先表達，我對這個是支持，對於幾場公聽會我沒有意見，但是我會建議對於地方政府一定要落實拜訪跟討論。地方政府可能會有不一樣的意見跟需求，如果與地方政府沒有經過完整的討論跟拜訪、彙集意見的話，我覺得會很有問題，所以作以上說明。"],["主席：請問原民會處長，大概會跨到幾個地方政府？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：目前就是除了花東之外的地方政府都會涉及到，因為目前花東都是原住民族地區，其他縣市則都會有定義上的都會區原住民族。"],["主席：所以這樣滿多的，會花滿長的一段時間。"],["王委員美惠：主委在這裡，我叫他們要加速。說實在的，你們修這個法，地方都不知道，像剛剛本席問的跟你們說的，我覺得落差也滿大的，所以我才會要求開公聽會，大家有意見可以出來討論，看看你們需要什麼、地方要配合什麼、他們的困難度在哪裡，這才是最重要的。不然你們光說要做，但地方要是不配合，也沒辦法啊！"],["主席：陳瑩委員也有提案。現在有一項臨時提案，就是希望原民會邀集相關部會、地方政府和都市地區原住民團體、部落代表召開公聽會，聽完了之後再來處理，不知道陳瑩委員的意見是？"],["陳委員瑩：我想多討論是好的，我也贊成讓各縣市都來辦公聽會，大家仔細討論。當然，有時候中央提案，地方買單，因為涉及財政的問題，到各地方縣市政府聽聽他們的意見是好的，所以我建議至少每個縣市都一定要辦公聽會。"],["主席：好，所以您是希望在每個縣市都要辦公聽會？"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["主席：這樣的話就要好幾場囉！可能會延宕我們這邊，因為公聽會辦完之後，可能才能研議非常多問題，這樣陳瑩委員您接受嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：我這邊沒有問題。"],["王委員美惠：主席，不好意思。我覺得比較多數的人認為到目前為止，原民會都沒有跟地方政府談。現在要討論要訂3場還是4場等等，但我認為應該叫他們趕快去處理，而我們不要訂，因為重點是他們要趕緊去辦啊！以我們嘉義市來講，我剛才就講過了，為了一千兩百多人，如果要求地方配合，但只跟民政處講好，地還找不到，我覺得這不是負責任的作法。你們要把問題出在哪裡、現在要使用的權利，包括學校等等、有什麼困難，都要提出來討論啊！主委，我覺得你們要積極到地方辦啦！不是像現在這樣只是去拜訪一下，通知一下有這個條款要過，要求他們配合。你們要說清楚，人家若要幫忙你們，才有辦法幫忙啊！否則光是你們中央修這個法，形同強迫地方要做，沒做還要挨罵。所以我主張真的要趕快處理、趕快開公聽會。以上。"],["主席：好。這樣子好不好？我們折衷一下，如果是去拜訪各縣市政府的話，我覺得真的會花滿長的時間，去年度他們已經辦了很多場座談會，也委託研究，所以提案直接寫五場，好不好？可以嗎？五場公聽會，好不好？不然的話時間太長啊！"],["張委員宏陸：召委，我也認為不要拖太久，但如果是五場，至少直轄市就有六都了，六都至少都要……"],["主席：好，那這樣子，是不是以月份來限制他們積極處理？"],["張委員宏陸：對、對、對。"],["主席：在三個月內，好不好？"],["張委員宏陸：好、好、好。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["張委員宏陸：可以啦！至少六都都要去啦！"],["王委員美惠：三個月內。"],["張委員宏陸：六都至少都要去啦！"],["主席：好不好？那我們就在文字上明確加上「三個月內」。我看一下：「原住民族委員會邀集相關部會、地方政府與……三個月內召開」，對，修正為「部落代表等在三個月內召開公聽會，聽取各界意見，以使對都市地區原住民族權益之保障與協助更加周延可行」，可以嗎？後面就是「並請原住民族委員會提供並整理歷來辦理座談會、研討會及委託研究的資料，提供給內政委員會各委員參考。」可以嗎？好，就按照修正文字通過，謝謝大家。","繼續再來質詢。","請張智倫委員質詢。張智倫委員提書面報告。","請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7097187500000004,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.42159375,"end":38.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.63659375,"end":40.784093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.22284375,"end":42.336593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.939718750000004,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.90159375,"end":45.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.79596875,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.61409375,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.330343750000004,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.414093750000006,"end":70.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.73721875000001,"end":73.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.62284375,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.75784375,"end":74.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.17534375000001,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.58346875000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.39596875000001,"end":104.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.72346875000001,"end":107.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.13659375,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.68034375,"end":113.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.69721875,"end":111.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.94971875,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.97846875,"end":120.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.95721875000001,"end":121.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.02471875,"end":129.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.14534375,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.61346875,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.64221875,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.17409375,"end":187.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.06909375,"end":188.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.55409375000002,"end":198.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.64096875,"end":206.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.29846875,"end":222.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.40971875000002,"end":225.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.80159375000002,"end":226.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.54409375,"end":260.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.93534375,"end":313.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.33221875000004,"end":325.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.72034375000004,"end":313.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.00096875,"end":337.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.54784375,"end":362.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.27346875,"end":338.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.99471875,"end":370.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.99409375000005,"end":373.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.44471875000005,"end":383.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.44784375,"end":399.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.93471875,"end":425.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.48346875000004,"end":428.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.29284375000003,"end":430.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.22096875000005,"end":433.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.83659375,"end":435.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.67159375000006,"end":439.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.90346875,"end":458.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.25034375,"end":459.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.06034375,"end":460.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.47784375000003,"end":462.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.89534375000005,"end":473.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.29034375000003,"end":482.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.26346875,"end":489.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.06409375000004,"end":493.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.91159375,"end":494.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.95784375000005,"end":499.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.43034375,"end":495.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.94409375000004,"end":506.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.33596875,"end":528.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.56846875,"end":539.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.98034375,"end":543.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.92909375,"end":547.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.5403437500001,"end":550.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.5947187500001,"end":559.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.6272187500001,"end":57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謝謝"},{"start":571.784,"end":596.35,"text":"非常謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。謝謝主委的回答。主委,我真的實在是今天這個質詢的這個問題是真的很重要的一個問題。而且您在今天的報告也列為第一個部分。你在今年九月底要把法律草案函報行政院,十一月底要通過行政院控函送大院。感覺好像您都還沒有準備好。"},{"start":597.09,"end":597.19,"text":"請議事宣告"}]}},{"id":"153383","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153383","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba756ed803add21f4cea2e07370b40154b446d6a815e913744af027823a2ae2feb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:32:15 - 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budget。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在這種情況下，全國分成六大區，你是按照各區給他一個天花板，桃竹竹苗區人口在近幾年的增加率在全國算非常高的，你這個天花板不變，沒有隨著人口調整，就讓他們可以分配到的健保費變相縮水。醫院每看一個病患，就多賠一個病患的醫療費用，這對我們竹竹苗相當的不公平。這個部分，希望衛福部一定要重視！"],["呂次長建德：OK，是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長，這個不能放著不管。"],["呂次長建德：OK。我想委員說的，確實在總額支付的制度之下，因為人口成長，相對的也應該來做一些考量。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對、對！但是你們一定要拿出辦法，是不是也可以在一個月內給我們一個回應？我覺得這個情況，衛福部一定很清楚啊。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們趕快，我想這個……"],["李副署長丞華：一個月給書面的資料，提供給委員。"],["呂次長建德：好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是資料，是要回應！"],["呂次長建德：好，我們把一些相關……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個情況，其實十年來桃竹竹苗這一區一直受到很大不公平的待遇。"],["呂次長建德：好，OK，我們會帶回來研議。感謝委員，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。接下來請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.814093750000001,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.185343750000001,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.715968750000002,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.825343750000002,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.394718750000003,"end":22.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.96409375,"end":24.769718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.43221875,"end":25.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.07346875,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.986593750000004,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.252218750000004,"end":42.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.17971875,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.947218750000005,"end":50.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.20846875,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.360343750000006,"end":62.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.58346875,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.89471875,"end":62.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.63721875,"end":71.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.17159375,"end":72.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.49221875,"end":77.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.23846875000001,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.75721875,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.19596875,"end":79.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.79909375000001,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.30409375,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.62471875,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.64159375,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.96596875,"end":93.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.73784375000001,"end":97.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.27721875,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.52971875,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.93034375,"end":115.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.88346875,"end":107.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":109.09409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.84034375,"end":113.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.01721875000001,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.04659375000001,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.97409375000001,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.32409375,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.42034375000001,"end":127.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.97721875000002,"end":129.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.41159375,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.45284375,"end":135.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.89159375,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.74721875,"end":144.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.61596875,"end":153.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.64971875,"end":145.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.48471875,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.63221875000002,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.96971875,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.13346875000002,"end":156.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.52971875,"end":157.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.01909375,"end":163.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16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。市長,您是社福專家,政"},{"start":47.284,"end":47.464,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":62.873,"end":63.033,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":83.832,"end":92.555,"text":"有的社區30人,有的社區50人,有的社區100多人。像這個就不合理嗎?是不是可以檢討?可以調整嗎?我向委員的這個意見非常好,就是說"},{"start":98.433,"end":98.593,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":122.423,"end":142.1,"text":"是,包委員是不是可以容我們回去,我想我過去台中,我知道這個關懷據點對於長輩,我想那個鼓勵長輩能走出來,我想這是一個非常好的一個政策,那我們就是相關的補助,您剛剛說的這個部分,是不是,我想我們來做一些檢討。"},{"start":144.702,"end":144.862,"text":"﹑徐欣瑩"},{"start":164.571,"end":164.791,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":192.458,"end":192.758,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":215.214,"end":215.354,"text":"徐欣瑩：徐欣瑩"},{"start":234.031,"end":234.071,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":258.757,"end":259.398,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":279.481,"end":280.242,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":302.953,"end":307.902,"text":"請主席再給本席30秒。我們要反映一下有關健保總額點數的問題。"},{"start":310.725,"end":311.205,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":337.37,"end":337.59,"text":"徐欣瑩：徐欣瑩"},{"start":364.875,"end":374.061,"text":"OK,我想委員說的確實,就是說我們那個在總額支付的一個制度之下,我想這個因為人口成長,我想這個相對的應該也來做一些考量。"},{"start":374.923,"end":376.544,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":397.108,"end":397.288,"text":"徐欣瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"153382","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153382","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaf9638ed0992a6c7e8c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e9137443945d43fff3066385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:26:32 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11:36:30","影片長度":"00:09:58","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:26:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:36:30+08:00","duration":598,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-23"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時26分）謝謝主席，部長好。本席想請教一下部長，您接任部長的時候，和前一任部長吳釗燮有辦交接嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有的。"],["黃委員國昌：因為本席覺得很奇怪，本席問公共工程委員會主委陳金德的時候，他說他和前一任主委完全沒有交接，所以昨天問他問題時，讓本席很驚訝啦！就是閣員彼此之間沒有交接，本席昨天聽了真的嚇一大跳，但這件事情沒有發生在外交部，非常好。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，部長，您剛才提到，重點不是要不要增加邦交國，你有提到一個概念，說我們要榮邦，就是讓我們的邦交國能夠過的更好、更興盛，這是你剛才說的嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對，繁榮。"],["黃委員國昌：好。你知不知道我們的政府開發援助，每一年大概花多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：當然，我們的GNI還沒有符合國際的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：對，大概多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：就是0.06%。"],["黃委員國昌：所以大概多少錢？"],["林部長佳龍：4.38億元。"],["黃委員國昌：單位是什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：美元。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！這樣就是上百億元臺幣。這上百億臺幣當中，目前我們的邦交國，拉美、加勒比海總共有幾個國家？"],["林部長佳龍：拉美、加勒比海大概7個國家。"],["黃委員國昌：好，7個國家。以100億元來算好了，這7個國家大概占這100億元的百分之幾？"],["林部長佳龍：不是這樣算的，因為人口和……"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！以100億元來算，大概有多少是給這7個國家？是50億元、70億元、60億元？您知道嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我可能還要再查一下詳細的數字，但是個別國家，我大概知道。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為你剛就任部長，本席一定會給你時間和機會啦！今天不是來考您的，但本席要確保我們的價值是一樣的，關心的議題也很重要，因為今天看到外交部的業務報告時，老實說本席有點驚訝，因為我們現在僅存的12個邦交國，有7個在拉美和加勒比海，但是您知道你們的業務報告中，提到這些國家的部分只有幾句話嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有八點，第一點就是提要固邦到榮邦。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所以……"],["林部長佳龍：也向委員說明一下，因為所謂的國際援助不是只限於邦交國，我們有很多國際合作項目在進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。本席是支持公開透明，哪些是邦交國？哪些是非邦交國？援助多少錢、做什麼事情？都要清清楚楚的向國人報告。為什麼本席要從這個角度切入？請部長看一下，本席會花一點點時間帶你進入狀況。OCCRP是一個非常有名的國際反貪腐組織，本席2020年離開立法院以後，成立一個公益揭弊暨吹哨者保護協會，開始和國際反貪腐組織合作。","那個時候我們開始調查，其中一個project就是中美洲銀行CABEI。我們發現CABEI內部非常腐敗，把其他國家的善意，給他們的錢、提供的援助，拿去資助拉丁美洲那邊的獨裁政權，甚至暗殺環保人士，侵犯人權、賄賂、貪污，錢全部都是從這個地方來。這件事情為什麼值得關注？我們來看一下盟友，我們民主同盟最重要的朋友──美國。","2023年，就是去年2月的時候，CSIS對CABEI提出嚴厲的批判，質疑他們竟然拿錢去打壓異議人士、侵害人權，那個時候對臺灣也提出一些呼籲，呼籲臺灣不要傻傻的，錢一直給CABEI，但它用到哪裡？是不是拿去侵害人權、資助獨裁政府？他們希望臺灣要建立一個非常清楚的監理機制。部長，您看一下，這是CABEI的創始會員國，區域內的創始會員國、區域外的會員國，這裡面有6個國家在蔡政府時期斷交了，當然，中國扮演很重要的因素。","臺灣一方面援助他們，但是在援助的同時，他們的人權狀況卻非常差，拿那些錢去打壓他們自己國內的異議人士，連美國都看不下去，所以CSIS才會對臺灣提出這樣的建議嘛！我們和OCCRP一起合作的調查報告，去年中英文版同時提出以後，臺灣上一屆的立法院也開始關注這件事情，因為我們真的給CABEI太多錢了，我們現在是CABEI單一會員國持股最高的，我們是第一大股東喔！累積到現在已經給他們2億7,600萬美元了。","因此，上一屆的國會，包括陳椒華委員、邱臣遠委員都要求，給CABEI的錢用到哪裡？花到哪裡？都要公開透明，吳釗燮部長、李淳次長都說這個要求非常合理，我們一定要做，而且我們要發揮在CABEI的影響力，不可以讓CABEI再拿錢去資助獨裁政體、打壓人權。這個價值非常重要，特別是臺灣現在需要民主同盟，要和相同價值的國家做朋友。","本席在部長卸任前最後一次質詢時請教部長，去年答應要公開透明，援助的計畫要在網站上公開，結果本席現在拿到的回應是在研議具體作法，請問為什麼研議這麼久？這件事情部長有和您交接嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們的同仁有向我做過簡報，這個部分外交部有多次向CABEI反映，它近日也有回復，對於增設臺灣和CABEI夥伴關係信託基金專業網站的草案，希望近期也能夠上網。"],["黃委員國昌：CABEI有沒有說需要多久？"],["林部長佳龍：我們會加速催促他們。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你覺得他們應該多久之內做出來？"],["林部長佳龍：他們只是說對這個草案……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！本席現在要向部長報告的事情是……"],["林部長佳龍：他們是說因為雙方要檢視裡面的數字，可能要再確認一下，既然……"],["黃委員國昌：這個數字會有什麼問題？我們給CABEI多少錢？他們收到多少錢？拿給多少國家？這個數字還要double check喔？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一起來催促啦！能夠儘快讓它……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，本席催促很久了。去年，上一屆的國會就有立委提出要求。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：上一屆的部長也有承諾，但是到今年，現在已經5月底，CABEI是不是把臺灣當作「細漢」？我們是它第一大持股會員國，在臺灣的資本市場，CABEI募到的資金是全球最高的，對他們的援助金額也是最高的，但它怎麼對我們？來，本席給部長看一下，這是外交部同仁給本席的，所謂的臺灣專區連結。","本席一連結上去，這個網站有設和沒設一樣，上面的項目全部都是空白。但是不對啊！我們明明給了這麼多錢，為什麼項目會是空白？本席再給部長看一下，這是CABEI和南韓，人家就做起來啦！南韓比我們晚加入CABEI，出的錢比我們少，援助的金額比我們少，但是CABEI和南韓做的起來，和臺灣卻做不起來。部長，你覺得這樣對嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們會努力儘快做到，因為它已經答應，這個草案也有了，只是雙方要再確認一下。"],["黃委員國昌：近期之內啦！外交部同仁和CABEI那邊也有聯繫，因為我們也有派理事或董事常駐在CABEI嘛！這個部分部長應該也有掌握。"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我們有理事或董事常駐在CABEI，要求他們做這件事情，而且臺灣作為第一大持股會員國，援助的金額最高，有這麼困難嗎？本席希望CABEI不是把臺灣當提款機，而是認為我們是重要的會員國。如果是重要的會員國，那本席的問題就來了，為什麼南韓可以，臺灣的部分卻在那邊推拖拉？這很重要。"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是請部長拜託同仁，和CABEI最後聯繫的結果，以及他們回復的內容，會後是不是可以說明？"],["林部長佳龍：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？兩個禮拜之內，可以嗎？現在這個時代，應該要很快啦！CABEI做為……"],["林部長佳龍：就照委員說的，我們兩個禮拜內說明。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜之內？"],["林部長佳龍：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請洪申翰委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.87471875,"end":2.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.97596875,"end":32.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.87034375,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.19471875,"end":33.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.06784375,"end":35.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.97471875,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.90596875,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.12909375,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.28096875,"end":49.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.59284375,"end":49.930343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.930343750000006,"end":50.487218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.84159375,"end":53.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.50346875,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.25409375,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.61659375000001,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.91534375,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.11346875000001,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.56471875,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.30721875,"end":69.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.55596875,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.12534375,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.76221875,"end":74.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.28534375000001,"end":73.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.17096875,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.86284375000001,"end":86.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.58284375000001,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.10159375,"end":88.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.83971875,"end":90.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.95346875,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.96596875,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.69159375000001,"end":96.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.89346875000001,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.29846875000001,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.34909375000001,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.81284375000001,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.66846875,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.74846875,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.96784375,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.03534375000001,"end":112.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.99721875,"end":109.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.78971875,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.38846875,"end":116.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.78909375,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.11784375,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.12596875000001,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.04846875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.58409375000002,"end":134.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.76096875000002,"end":136.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.95471875,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.15284375000002,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.75971875000002,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.771593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那大概就上百億的台幣嘛在這個上百億的台幣當中在我們目前的邦交國在拉美加勒比海"},{"start":90.038,"end":102.267,"text":"總共有幾個國家?拉美加加勒比海大概7個國家7個國家齁這我就以100億來算好了這7個國家大概佔這100億的百分之多少?那不是這樣算因為人口跟那個對啦我說你這100億嘛大概有多少給這7個國家是50億70億60億你知道嗎?呃我們呃"},{"start":119.269,"end":120.01,"text":"林佳龍報告業務概況"},{"start":147.816,"end":153.596,"text":"在拉美跟加勒比海但是您知道您的業務報告提到這些國家有幾句話嗎?"},{"start":155.831,"end":179.061,"text":"我們八點第一點就是提要顧邦到榮邦啊我跟委員也說明一下因為所謂國際援助不是只限於邦交國我們國際合作很多項目都在進行中沒有關係啊我是支持公開透明有哪些到邦交國有哪些非邦交國多少錢做什麼事情清清楚楚的向國人報告為什麼"},{"start":180.305,"end":184.351,"text":"我要從這個角度去切入來請部長看一下我會花一點點時間帶你進入狀況"},{"start":188.001,"end":214.201,"text":"OCCRP是一個非常有名的國際反貪腐組織我2020年離開立法院了以後我成立了一個公益階級缺道者保護者協會開始跟這個國際反貪腐組織合作那那個時候我們開始調查的其中的一個project是中美洲銀行卡貝發現卡貝內部非常的腐敗把其他國家的善意"},{"start":215.615,"end":244.123,"text":"給他們的錢提供了援助去資助拉丁美洲那邊的獨裁政權甚至暗殺環保人士侵犯人權賄賂貪污錢全部都是從這個地方來的那這件事情為什麼值得關注啊因為來我們來看一下我們的盟友我們民主同盟最重要的朋友美國"},{"start":246.29,"end":273.089,"text":"2023年去年2月的時候CSIS對於卡貝提出嚴厲的批判竟然拿錢去打壓異議人士侵害人權那個時候對台灣也提出了一些呼籲呼籲說台灣不要傻傻的錢一直給卡貝用到哪裡去是不是拿去侵害人權是不是資助獨裁政府"},{"start":274.482,"end":296.29,"text":"他們希望台灣要建立一個非常清楚的監理機制來部長您看一下卡貝的創始會員國區域內的創始會員國區域外的會員國裡面有6個國家在蔡政府實習的時候斷交了那當然這中國扮演很重要的因素扮演很重要的因素那只不過說"},{"start":297.914,"end":298.694,"text":"我們跟OCCPR"},{"start":322.293,"end":347.894,"text":"所一起合作的調查報告在去年綜藝文版同時出來了以後台灣的立法院上一屆立法院也開始在關注啊這一件事情因為我們給卡貝真的太多錢了我們現在是卡貝喔單一會員國持股最高的我們是第一大股東喔美積現在已經給他兩億七千六百萬美元了好"},{"start":349.338,"end":355.534,"text":"因此上一屆的國會包括陳佳華委員包括邱承遠委員都要求"},{"start":356.551,"end":385.831,"text":"給卡貝的錢去哪裡花到哪裡要公開透明吳釗燮部長李淳市長都說這個要求非常的合理我們一定要來做而且我們要發揮我們在卡貝裡面的影響力不可以讓卡貝再拿錢去資助獨裁政體打壓人權這個價值非常重要特別台灣現在又希望用民主同盟跟相同價值的國家做朋友"},{"start":386.771,"end":411.28,"text":"那我在部長卸任前最後一次質詢我請教部長說那去年答應的公開透明說原著的計畫要在網站上面去公開然後結果我現在拿到的回應是說研議具體作法那請問為什麼研議這麼久這個事情部長有跟您交接嗎"},{"start":413.492,"end":414.393,"text":"部長你覺得他們應該多久之內做出來?"},{"start":442.776,"end":471.286,"text":"他們只是說對這個草對吧我現在要跟部長報告的事情是因為雙胞胎檢視裡面的數字可能要再確認一下應該不是啊這個數字會有什麼問題我們給卡貝多少錢收到多少錢拿去給多少國家這個數字還要double check喔我們一起來催促啦能夠盡快讓他不是啊我催促很久啦去年上一屆國會就有立委提出要求了嘛上一屆的部長也承諾了嘛到今年喔"},{"start":473.027,"end":497.819,"text":"現在已經五月底了嘛然後卡貝是什麼?把台灣當作西韓欸我們是他第一大持股會員國在台灣資本市場卡貝木的資金是全球最高欸援助的金額給他也是最高但他怎麼對我們的來我給部長看一下我就上你們外交部的同仁給我所謂那個台灣專區的連結我一連結上去"},{"start":500.376,"end":526.109,"text":"有跟沒有一樣上面的項目全部都空白那不對啊我們明明給了這麼多錢阿為什麼項目會是空白我再給部長看一下卡貝跟南韓人家就做起來啦南韓比我們加入卡貝晚欸出的錢比我們少欸原住的金額比我們少欸卡貝跟南韓做得起來跟台灣做不起來部長你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":527.947,"end":556.663,"text":"我們來努力盡快因為他已經答應了那這個草案也有雙方再確認一下那近期之內啦我們外交部的同仁跟卡貝那邊因為事實上我們自己也有派理事或董事常駐在卡貝嘛這個我想部長你應該有掌握嘛對我們都有理事或董事常駐在卡貝的要求他們做這件事情台灣作為第一大持股匯能國原住的金額最高有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":558.564,"end":586.34,"text":"我希望卡貝不是把台灣當提款機只認為我們是裡面重要的會員國如果是重要的會員國那我的問題就來了南韓為什麼可以台灣就在這邊推脫拉這很重要是不是請部長拜託同仁跟卡貝最後聯繫的結果他們回覆的內容是不是會後可以說明需要多久"},{"start":587.25,"end":589.232,"text":"兩個禮拜之內,可以嗎?現在這個時代很快啦,卡布作為一項兩個禮拜之內,好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153381","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153381","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebab3dd14c33d1f049a1766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744b57f319d01cb96045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:28:05 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- 11:32:12","影片長度":"00:15:45","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:16:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:32:12+08:00","duration":945,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時16分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：呂次長。"],["劉委員建國：先恭喜呂建德次長接任衛福部次長，次長應該都有掌握對衛環委員會召開的一些相關會議和相關業務，都清楚吧？"],["呂次長建德：是，趕快在進入狀況、在學習。"],["劉委員建國：你知道3月28日衛環委員會排什麼專案報告嗎？"],["呂次長建德：3月28日？"],["劉委員建國：對，你不是進入狀況了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：不好意思，委員，那時我還沒有就任。"],["劉委員建國：那時當然你還沒有來，你是520以後才來的。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：我問你是否進入狀況，你說有，你有掌握衛環委員會召開的相關會議嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我在努力學習當中。"],["劉委員建國：學習和掌握是兩回事。"],["呂次長建德：是，真的是。"],["劉委員建國：那天召開社會安全網缺失檢討及具體改進做法的專案報告，次長知道當時那是為什麼事件召開的嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我知道，是新北剴剴案件。"],["劉委員建國：那時我在這個委員會質詢薛前部長：就發現有滿多缺失亟需改善，其中一個最大的缺失是對於剴剴案這種特殊家庭的小朋友，衛福部原有定直轄市、縣（市）政府運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童處理原則，這個原則有三項規定：第一個，建議並至少每六個月盤點適合照顧安置個案之居托人員名單；第二個，提供居托人員照顧家外安置兒童相關專業訓練；第三個，訓練課程建置包括安置個案類型、創傷經驗及問題的輔導。都有這樣的原則把關，最後還是有剴剴案的悲劇發生，原因出在什麼地方？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這裡面大概有幾個部分，一個是社工同仁對於這部分的認知，還有整個收出養制度的完善，另外一個是中央和地方的相關協調、橫向的聯繫。"],["劉委員建國：主席，時間是否可以暫停一下，因為我要放簡報放不出來，今天沒有辦法放嗎？"],["主席：前面都可以。"],["劉委員建國：對不起！好，謝謝。我當時看到的是臺北市政府覺得他的安置資源充足，所以不需要照這個處理原則處理，所以才會發生這個憾事，那時候薛部長也很生氣，但生氣也沒有用，然後導致臺北市沒有這樣的名單，硬要跨區到沒有建置到家外安置的托育人員的臺北市，所以一步一步的將剴剴推向死亡的結局，也因此社家署有經過檢討，在4月30日又公布直轄市、縣（市）政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引，要來強化居家托育服務的訪視工作。但是這個工作指引會不會又變成臺北市還是哪一個縣市覺得自己的資源足夠或怎麼樣，又不遵照這個指引了，那你們怎麼處理？你們怎麼處理？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，大概有兩個重點，目前社家署已經要求各個地方政府對於相關流程更精進化；另外，剛剛委員有提到，我們社工同仁目前這個部分的兒虐相關方面知能，也在在職訓練時予以強化。還有，其實目前我們也增加訪視的頻率。"],["劉委員建國：署長，你請坐啦，你站在那邊，我覺得很難過，好像我在懲罰你。","次長，因為有定原則，地方政府就不照這樣辦理了，你現在訂了指引，他如果又不照這樣做，他覺得他資源夠、不需要，萬一又發生事情了會怎麼樣？你們又在那邊震怒，震怒有用嗎？已經又丟掉一條人命了，還是發生悲劇。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前已經通過社安網2.0，之前在林萬億林政委指導之下，我們現在有人力倍增計畫。還有另外一個就是像委員剛剛所說的，我們現在也會訂頒地方政府處理原則，類似CDC對於登革熱到某一個程度，多少案例以下，地方政府有處理的權責和SOP，什麼時候是屬於中央政府的權責。關於這些，我們在社安網2.0都有訂相關指引。"],["劉委員建國：現在不是只有衛福部的社家署遇到這個問題，連食藥署之前也遇到蘇丹紅事件，之前衛福部針對食品也有訂定相關手冊。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：這個手冊早已經被新的要點取代了，地方政府後來拿著手冊跟中央argue。所以當我們訂原則、訂指引，如果地方政府不遵守的話，你們怎麼處理？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在有社福績效考核，如果他不符合，那對不起，可能以後補助的分數會低。"],["劉委員建國：只有這樣的手段而已？"],["呂次長建德：當然不光這樣。其實我們還有另外一些政策工具，社安網對於地方的社工也有補助，人力的部分，我們恐怕……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦，我就是希望新的次長到位，這樣的事情不要再發生。如果要預防發生，可能相關的手段要非常的明確，讓地方政府知道，原則定好、指引定好，你就照這樣，如果不照這樣，你就會怎麼樣。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯！"],["劉委員建國：對不對？這樣就很清楚，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：次長剛來沒多久，我就給你到這個會期結束前，是不是把這些相關的機制建設好，給委員會作參考，好不好？謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：當然，是、好的。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情講到社工的問題，要凸顯的問題還是社工人力荒。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：依照衛福部的資料，22個縣市的社工需求將近4,200人，現在進用差不多3,700人左右，進用率不到九成。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯、對。"],["劉委員建國：尤其新北市需求人數最高，進用率也只有七成一。同時我這邊有一個資料，五年內臺灣社工需求高達4,185人，但是現在每年願意投入到社工師行業才685人，我算起來不到八成，685乘以5再除以4,185，絕對不到八成喔，越來越少嘛。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：現在又依據臺灣社會工作教育學會在109年所作的調查，只到109年，因為我後面調不到資料。社工系總計招收的學生，碩士、博士有3,081人，3,000人初頭，但現在每年投入社工師職場的才六百多人，也就是差不多25%左右，剩下75%的人不投入這個職場，什麼原因？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我自己也在大學教書，這大概主要有三個原因，一個是教、考、訓、用彼此間的接合問題。第二個最重要的還是剛剛委員所說的，社工本身的薪資勞動條件，薪資的部分，目前社安網2.0已經有社工倍增策略。委員當然會問倍增的誘因是什麼，誘因有二個部分，一是薪資，現在公部門的薪資已經有提高；在私部門，我們現在也有相關補助。","另外，我們現在會加強社工系學生在大三、大四的時候就可以到我們的機關來實習，透過實習的方式，多管齊下，趕快提高進用率。"],["劉委員建國：職業環境、薪資嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：次長應該很清楚，我們的社工服務人口比例是多少？一比幾？"],["呂次長建德：如果沒有記錯的話，是1235。"],["劉委員建國：1235嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，1235。"],["劉委員建國：那日本多少？"],["呂次長建德：我如果沒記錯，日本應該是845。"],["劉委員建國：1：845？"],["呂次長建德：日本845。"],["劉委員建國：韓國呢？"],["呂次長建德：韓國……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦，就這樣討論，我們不是故意要給次長考試。"],["呂次長建德：如果沒記錯，韓國比我們略好一點，大概一千多吧。"],["劉委員建國：一千多？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：對不起，我這邊的資料是不是有錯誤，就請次長再double check。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：你剛才講日本是一比八百多，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：845。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊是1：436。"],["呂次長建德：喔，是這樣啊。"],["劉委員建國：你剛剛說韓國是一比一千多嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊是1：289。"],["呂次長建德：韓國？"],["劉委員建國：對！香港是1：412。"],["呂次長建德：韓國我可能……"],["劉委員建國：如果我的數據錯，馬上提出來。"],["呂次長建德：是不是可以允許我們後續再提供？"],["劉委員建國：我講這樣啦，臺灣就是一比一千二百多。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：跟你的數據差不多喔，你是1235，我是1249。"],["呂次長建德：對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：所以我底下這些數據應該也不會有多大的落差。"],["呂次長建德：好，OK。"],["劉委員建國：可是剛剛聽次長講，落差是蠻大的。如果是這樣的職場環境，怎麼會好？對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：畢業的學生，博士、碩士怎麼會願意投入？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：即便薪資再提高，我覺得短時間內要把這些人力補足，有困難！所以我們召委在排的時候，特別要求勞動部長，對於外國人士就業服務法第四十六條第一項第一款至第六款工作資格審查的標準，希望在一個月內也讓外國具有相關資格的對象，都可以投入這個職場，把人力補足。但是補足的時候，如果臺灣的服務比例與鄰近國家落差值這麼大，這整個工作職場環境就是不允許社工師持續在臺灣待下去，所以我才會提出這個數據給次長參考。","如果這些相關數據有什麼問題，沒關係，大家可以討論。但是我在這邊要具體要求，次長，一個月內，就是你所講的薪資還有職場的環境怎麼改善，而且服務比例如何降低，才是真正達到解決社工人力荒，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["劉委員建國：一個月內，這個我就要求時間要比較快一點。"],["呂次長建德：我們提供報告，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：就是一個月內提供報告，我沒有說要馬上去做。"],["呂次長建德：一個月內可以，好。"],["劉委員建國：這是第一件事情。","最後，我要呼應召委今天講的主題，我覺得這個事情還是真的必須要討論。"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["劉委員建國：但是是這個樣子，我講「但是」兩個字，就是為什麼，不是但是又無奈。臺灣的政治環境，一直到現在就是很奇怪，一國就是好幾制，但是當地方政府首長要去展現對65歲以上不管什麼樣態的長輩，讓他們減輕一些相關的負擔，這個方向絕對是正確，毋庸置疑，但是到底要不要有一致的標準，不要有城鄉的落差，不要有縣市之間的差異。","我看到的資料，65歲的臺北市老人綜合所得稅率未達20%；臺南市65歲以上領有中度、輕度身心障礙手冊，且經稅捐機關核定最近一年綜合所得稅率未達12%；臺中市綜合所得稅率5%以下……，這是六都的狀況，完全沒有一致性。當完全沒有一致性的情況之下，現在全國是22個縣市，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員建國：六都就有六個版本，22個縣市扣掉六都，是不是變成17個版本、17個樣態？坦白說，也不為過啦。不為過的情況之下，中央主管健保的單位，主管機關要怎麼處理？要怎麼因應？我覺得要面對啦！要處理啦！","地方政府為什麼有這個底氣，願意讓65歲以上的長輩免除健保費的負擔？但是相對的，他有這個底氣，其實這幾年不是只有中央超徵，地方政府相關的稅收也有超徵，所以願意來做這些事情，我覺得要鼓勵。要鼓勵到最後要有一致性，真的要好好地盤點，好好地做一些資料的調查，是時候了。部長回來之後，次長是不是就可以跟部長討論，給他一些意見，甚至也把主計單位找過來，中央補助地方，包括相關的專案計畫，還有統籌分配稅款的試算方法，是不是要一併做一些大調整了？我覺得這真的要思考，可以吧，次長？"],["呂次長建德：我覺得委員真的很有心，部長從日內瓦回來之後，我會跟部長報告，把委員的意見提供給他。但是我也要強調，資源真的非常有限，我們是不是要用在刀口上？應該幫助的，政府一定責無旁貸，真的有需要、真的很艱苦的人，政府一定全力負擔。我跟委員報告，70歲以上的中低收入戶，現在其實是中央政府全部補助。"],["劉委員建國：對，這是從以前到現在一直都是這樣施行的嘛，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是啦，是啦。"],["劉委員建國：對於低收入戶，不管是不是65歲，其實全部都是由政府吸收，就是福保。"],["呂次長建德：對、對，70歲以上，沒有錯。"],["劉委員建國：這包含65歲以上的老人，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：中低收。"],["劉委員建國：中低收跟低收嘛。"],["呂次長建德：因為他們生活艱苦，真的有需要。"],["劉委員建國：是啊、是啊、是啊。這些不管70歲或是福保的人全部扣除掉，反正我們要進入超高齡國家，明年就到了，年底就有可能達標了。"],["呂次長建德：現在是18.6%。"],["劉委員建國：對，有可能今年年底，現在才5月。"],["呂次長建德：現在一年大概增加20萬的長輩。"],["劉委員建國：是啊。現在有四百多萬人，四百多萬人扣掉70歲以上的中低收老人、扣掉福保，剩多少人？大家來檢討嘛。"],["呂次長建德：OK，好、好。"],["劉委員建國：好不好？謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉建國委員。接下來請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.11034375,"end":6.021593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.22409375,"end":6.949718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.40534375,"end":7.810343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":10.746593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.52284375,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.26096875,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.79534375,"end":23.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.90909375,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.988468750000003,"end":29.933468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.03034375,"end":33.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.915968750000005,"end":35.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.87346875,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.125968750000006,"end":40.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.93596875,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.02846875,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.77096875,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.205343750000004,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.555343750000006,"end":46.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.58471875,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.98096875,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.845343750000005,"end":54.165968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.212218750000005,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.32596875,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.66721875,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.02971875,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.04659375000001,"end":64.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.080343750000004,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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部門的話,我們又有一個整個這一個相關的整個這個補助。那另外一個就是說,我們現在會加強你這個社工系的學生在大三、大四的時候,你就可以到我們的機關裡面做實習。用實習的方式,那透過這個方式我們就可以這個多館來進行,來趕快提供來提高他的這一個金融率。"},{"start":525.357,"end":549.723,"text":"職業環境,薪資嘛,對不對?是,沒錯。那自然應該很清楚。我們的一個社工服務的人口比例是多少?一比幾?如果我沒有記錯,大概一、二、三。一、二、三、五。一、二、三、五嘛,對不對?對,沒錯。一、二、三、五。那日本多少?日本我都沒記錯,應該八、四、五。如果我沒有記錯。一比八、四、五。八、四、五。日本。那韓國呢?"},{"start":552.508,"end":578.442,"text":"韓國﹚沒關係,就這樣討論,我們不是要故意跟次長發生﹚如果韓國沒有記錯的話,大概他比我們略好一點,大概一﹑如果沒記錯他一零一零二多吧﹑一零二多﹑對,韓國﹑對不起,我這邊資料是不是有錯誤﹑就請部長再double check﹑好﹑你剛才講是日本是一比八百多嘛對不對﹑八四五﹑我這邊是一比四三六﹑喔,這樣喔﹑好﹑好﹑那你剛剛講韓國是一比一零多嘛﹑對﹑一千多嘛﹑對﹑我這邊是一比二八九﹑"},{"start":581.026,"end":586.593,"text":"韓國?對。香港是1比41喔。韓國我可能...好,如果我的數據錯馬上提出來啊。"},{"start":587.981,"end":613.144,"text":"我們是不是可以允許我後續?對,我講這樣啦,我講這樣,你看台灣就是一比一二多。對,沒錯。我這邊是一,跟你的數據差不多喔。你是一二三五,我是一二四九啦。對,對,對。所以應該我底下這個數據應該也不會有多大的落差啦。好,OK。但是剛剛聽市長講是落差是蠻大的。是,是。那如果這樣的市場環境怎麼會好?沒錯。對不對?畢業的學生、婆士、碩士怎麼願意來投入?是。"},{"start":613.484,"end":613.504,"text":"﹚劉建國﹚"},{"start":643.724,"end":672.381,"text":"要比鄰近國家落差值這麼大這整個公共職場環境他就是叫你社區公司不允許你在台灣持續再待下去所以我才會提供這個數據來給市長做參考如果說我是最相關出去數據有什麼問題沒關係可以大家就做討論但是我在這邊要具體要求市長一個月內就處理你所講的薪資還有這個職場的環境怎麼去做改善而且服務的比例如何去降低才是真正的"},{"start":673.142,"end":673.503,"text":"則不予審查．則不予審查"},{"start":680.797,"end":704.247,"text":"我們提供報告好不好?就是一個月提供報告了。我沒有說你馬上要怎麼去做了。最後我要呼應昭偉講的今天這個主題。我覺得這個事情還是真的必須要討論。但是是這個樣子。我講的但是兩個字就是為什麼?不是但是又無奈。台灣的政治環境一直到現在就是很奇怪。一國就是好幾次。"},{"start":705.287,"end":723.785,"text":"但是當地方政府首長他要去展現他對65歲以上的不管什麼樣態的這些長輩讓他們減輕相關的一些負擔這個方向絕對是正確無庸置疑但是到底要不要要不要要不要有一次的標準"},{"start":724.426,"end":752.314,"text":"不要有城鄉的落差不要有縣市之間的差異有的就像這是我看到的資料這65歲的台北市的老人綜合所得稅率未達20%那台南市離我中渡65歲以上中渡親渡身心障礙所涉且經稅監機關核定最近一年綜合所得稅未達12%然後台中市綜合所得稅稅率5%以下大大大大這是六都"},{"start":753.254,"end":769.128,"text":"的狀況就完全沒有一致性了。當你完全沒有一致性的情況之下,現在全國是22個縣市,對不對?六都就有六個版本。22個縣市扣掉,是不是要變成17個版本?17個樣態?坦白說啦,坦白說,也不為過啦。"},{"start":777.073,"end":789.641,"text":"阿不而過的情況之下,你中央在主管健保的這個單位,這個主管機關,你要怎麼處理,要怎麼應應?我覺得,要面對啦。"},{"start":790.802,"end":818.141,"text":"要處理。為什麼有這個底氣他願意來讓65歲以上的這些長輩免除的這個健保費的這樣的一個負擔。但是相對的他有這個底氣其實這幾年不是只有中央操爭地方政府相關的稅收有操爭所以他願意來做這些事情我覺得要鼓勵要鼓勵到最後變成要一致性的情況之下"},{"start":819.754,"end":847.135,"text":"這個真的是要好好去盤點好好去做一些資料的一些調查我覺得是時候是不是部長回來之後社長就可以跟部長來做這個討論給他一些意見甚至也把主計單位找過來中央補助地方相關包含的專案計畫還有特同那個統籌密稅款的試算方法是不是一併要做一些大調整呢"},{"start":849.778,"end":872.896,"text":"我覺得這就要思考了。可以吧?市長。呃,我剛剛委員齁,那個,呃,人家這樣,這樣,這樣,這樣有聽到心嘛齁。啊,我想這個,呃,我會,那個部長他從日內瓦回來之後,我會跟部長來報告,齁,把委員的意見來提供。但是我也要強調就是說齁,真的,這些人家齁,這個資源非常有限啦齁。啊,咱,咱是不是真的要用在刀口上面?齁,啊,我想這是,啊,"},{"start":873.396,"end":891.486,"text":"議員黃健豪等20人擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民黨黨黨團擬具:「老人福利法第二十二條條條文修正草案。issippi, 國民"},{"start":891.906,"end":898.489,"text":"對,對,這是從以前到現在一直是這樣走的嘛,對不對?我們對其實有好的,其實有些專報就對了,就是我們都整個政府蓋修嘛,屬性跟古堡嘛,對不對?這包含65歲以上老人嘛,對不對?對嘛,對,中低收跟低收嘛。"},{"start":910.235,"end":917.64,"text":"因為他們那麼辛苦嘛,這裡是有那個需要﹑需要﹑需要﹑是啊是啊是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑是啊﹑"},{"start":938.535,"end":938.695,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},{"id":"153379","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153379","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebad1118ab4861547e44869c0f3e297fc60446d6a815e913744f429f83b94f673bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:17:23 - 11:29:22","影片長度":"00:11:59","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:17:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:29:22+08:00","duration":719,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：自從我們通過了國會擴權的法案，越來越多的機關，不管是憲政機關或者是民間的法界都站出來發表很多相關的聲明，認為這樣的法案不應當存在，所以監察院的新聞稿很清楚的釐定出三大要項，認為國會擴權的法案已經明顯的涉及違反憲法的權力分立原則。昨天最新的是國家人權委員會也發布了新聞稿，他們以世界人權宣言以及公民與政治權力國際公約的相關規定，很清楚的定出三大反對國會擴權法案，因為嚴重的違反國際人權公約。第一項，立法權過度擴張有侵害人民生活與隱私之虞，這一點在說的是，這一次國會擴權法案職權行使法第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十條之一，對於國會調查權的擴充都會侵害人民的生活與隱私，你同意這一點嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們認為整個法案的制定必須要遵守權力的分立，尤其是五權憲法是各有職掌，我們是希望能夠合乎憲法的權力分立原則。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。世界人權宣言第十七條規定，任何人之財產不容無理剝奪，這也是國家人權委員會所說的，已經通過的立法院職權行使法第四十七條及第四十八條就違反了要求人民提供跟隱私相關，甚至營業秘密、專利權利等等，而且法案中沒有明定其必要性及合理性。所以你也同意這個觀點嗎？對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這的確是有爭議。"],["吳委員思瑤：是有爭議的。第三個，國家人權委員會說法案所通過的第五十條之一到之四，都嚴重的違反世界人權宣言第十條、第十一條，以及公民與政治權利國際公約第十四條，也就是接受調查的一般民眾不得拒絕出席，這是現在的法案，是擴權的內容喔！以及如果要請律師陪同的話，還需要由主持的主席同意，所以國家人權委員會的主張認為這一點是戕害人民獨立無私及平等公開之司法權，您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確有這個爭議。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝部長的回答。所以我們再一次在這裡透過論證，國家人權委員會以世界人權宣言以及我們所簽署的兩公約的原則，都再一次的告訴我們，這一次強行碾壓表決通過的國會擴權法案是違反人權的。","繼續我要就教於您的，昨天我聽到在野黨的黨鞭說要成立國會的在野特偵組。部長，特偵組在2007成立，2017廢除嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：是立法院拿掉了法院組織法第六十三條之一，那您認為現在在野黨所說的要再次恢復所謂的在野國會特偵組，您的看法如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：特偵組是屬於偵查的一個機關，以憲法權力分立的原則，這是屬於司法權的一環。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以國會沒有這個權力嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：就大法官的解釋，對國會的調查權這部分有清楚的解釋。"],["吳委員思瑤：有清楚的解釋，所以沒有所謂什麼國會特偵組成立之必要，更沒有合理性，它更沒有合憲性嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為我們還是希望以憲法的權力分立原則來看這件事情。"],["吳委員思瑤：我都不需要再論述過去特偵組所犯下違反通保法、監察法相關的九月政爭的事情，我都不用再贅述，但是我今天在這裡要把歷史文件拿出來再說明一次，也就是過去要廢除特偵組在討論法院組織法第六十三條之一的時候，當時的法務部長在這裡提出了五大反對特偵組繼續存在的理由。第一，特偵組影響檢察機關內部監督機制，對不對？Yes！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個的確是有。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那當初的第二點宣言，違反行政法上機關與職務不兩立的原則，對不對？依舊存在嘛！第三點，法務部反對特偵組是因為概括條款明定特偵組的事務管轄違反了法律明確性的原則，這個理由繼續存在嘛，對不對？第四點，檢察官具有司法屬性，所以沒有再設特偵組的必要，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這部分就政策已經決定。"],["吳委員思瑤：已經決定了。最後一點，當時的法務部說所謂的特偵組是違反再議程序及案件的管考制度，所以法務部期期以為不可。所以過去的主張如此，制度是一套的，司法的精神是一致的，過去既然特偵組被廢除，也被立法院自己通過法律來廢除的話，現在更沒有所謂成立國會在野特偵組之可能及必要了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在檢察官偵查的運作應該很順，所以我是認為這部分我們依照目前的機制，我想社會應該可以理解我們現在偵查權的運作是相當的……"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝部長的回答。施政是延續的，不分藍綠，國家的制度是永續的，所以我們都不能夠再容許讓設立另外一個疊床架屋的機關來私設刑堂，成為另一個東廠，讓政治干預司法，淪為政黨打手的歷史事件再一次被重蹈覆轍，謝謝您今天回應我的一些主張跟說明。","繼續回到今天的主題，即強化社會安全網。我跟您分享我長期在教育及文化委員會，我一直在持續精進校園三級的輔導機制，就是三級心輔機制，但是一再的從發展性輔導到介入性輔導到處遇性輔導，其實是層層失靈的，因為幾乎六成以上有自殺傾向，或是真正自殺未遂或真的是不幸離開我們的孩子，六成以上是沒有被心輔機制接住，所以教育部現在正在全面精進檢視現在的校園三級輔導機制。今天的主題矯正學校也是三級輔導機制，就部長您認為，現在矯正學校的三級輔導機制，當然適用跟一般校園不同，這有更特殊性的需求，現行的三級機制您認為運作得宜嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就目前的運作，我想在實務上是不是可以請矯正署周署長來代為回應？"],["吳委員思瑤：好。署長，這是一個核心的議題，您自己覺得運作得宜嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們的三級機制在第一級是屬於一般性的，這個一般性是由班導師還有教導員來負責。"],["吳委員思瑤：制度我都知道，您就回答我您認為現在三級在矯正學校……"],["周署長輝煌：在三級的機制裡面，我們覺得輔導教師這方面缺額還有5位，我們必須要來爭取，要來補強，這是屬於第二級機制。"],["吳委員思瑤：我再次來對應教育部的，現在正在修學生輔導法，吳思瑤提案希望能夠讓大學裡頭的學生輔導是1比900，這是教育部從1比1,200要進化到1比900，現在法律還沒修正過，但是都用公務預算去補強它。現在要進入這個核心，我剛剛的問題跟命題是說現在矯正學校的三級輔導機制有沒有運作得宜，它就關乎我們的輔導老師的比例員額是不是夠，特教老師是不是夠，以及專業心社人力這三大塊嘛，現行的矯正學校的輔導老師是1比25，特教老師是1比21，專業心社人力足夠嗎？請署長回應一下。"],["周署長輝煌：心社人員不足18名……"],["吳委員思瑤：等一下，輔導老師……"],["周署長輝煌：缺5名。心理師、社工師缺18名，這個我們會來爭取。"],["吳委員思瑤：那特教呢？"],["周署長輝煌：我們感謝國教署……"],["吳委員思瑤：特教呢？特教老師呢？"],["周署長輝煌：特教足夠，沒問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且是剛補足的嘛，對不對？"],["周署長輝煌：特教部分沒問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這是重中之重，部長，您剛上任，我就用這一頁來告訴您。現在的輔導老師還缺5名，然後特教老師是一直補一直補才補上的，心社人力還缺18個，這是新任部長很重要的工作，矯正學校不能放棄任何一個孩子，這部分您承諾要多久可以來補強？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們儘速來補強。"],["吳委員思瑤：不行，您要給我一個時間點，我跟你講喔，教育部還沒有修法之前，就用預算的方式來補強，沒有修法先用預算的方式來補強喔，現在大學已經補強了將近八成，是用公務預算來編列喔，你可以突破員額的限制，你現在問題是出在聘不到人還是沒有錢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：困難這部分我們是不是請矯正署說明？因為這個115年才有辦法到位。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，部長，我們時間到了，您一個月內去提出如何補強的作法，包括時程。我分享給你為什麼我要告訴你教育部的機制，學生輔導法是要修法的，還沒有修法前，教育部就用公務預算想方設法，用公務預算去補貼學校補強心輔人力，可以從1比1,200進化到1比900，現在已經八成的學校。還沒修法前自己就用國家給的預算來補強，矯正學校的數量是少的，比起教育部要面對一百多個大學，所以一個月內提出你們用什麼樣的行政作業方法來補足這些員額，老師師資、輔導老師、特教老師、專業心社人力都是矯正學校三級輔導機制能不能夠work到位最核心的議題啊，一個月內提出方案好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["吳委員思瑤：這個我一定會追到天涯海角都會追到你們，就如同我追蹤教育部的方法，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以很遺憾，我以為你會在今天告訴我一個明確的時程，但您是新任的部長，我可以給您多一點時間，我們後續再討論。謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。接下來請羅智強委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.890968750000001,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.560343750000001,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.77971875,"end":16.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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有請部長"},{"start":14.665,"end":14.685,"text":"吳思瑤議員"},{"start":44.905,"end":59.495,"text":"昨天最新的是國家人權委員會也發布了新聞稿他們以世界人權宣言以及公民與政治權利國際公約的相關規定很清楚的訂出三大反對國會擴權法案因為嚴重的違反國際人權公約"},{"start":66.48,"end":86.836,"text":"第一項立法權過度擴張有侵害人民生活與隱私之餘這一點在說的是這一次國會擴權法案職權刑事法4748條以及50條之一對於國會調查權的擴充都會侵害人民的生活與隱私你同意這一點嗎"},{"start":88.873,"end":108.387,"text":"我們認為那個整個一個法案的一個制定必須要遵守權利一個分立尤其是五權憲法是各有職長我們是希望能夠合乎到憲法的權利分立原則好那世界人權宣言第17條規定的任何人之財產不容無理剝奪這也是國家人權委員會所說的"},{"start":110.589,"end":127.696,"text":"已經通過的立法院職權刑事法第47第48條就違反了要求人民提供跟隱私相關甚至營業秘密專利權利等等而且法案中沒有明定其必要性及合理性所以你也同意這個觀點嗎對不對這的確是有爭議"},{"start":130.057,"end":148.252,"text":"是有爭議的第三個呢國家人權委員會說法案所通過的第50條之一到之四都嚴重的違反世界人權宣言的第10條、11條以及公民與政治權利國際公約第14條也就是接受調查的一般民眾"},{"start":149.073,"end":167.706,"text":"不得拒絕出席這是現在的法案擴權的內容以及如果要請律師陪同的話還需要由主持的主席來同意所以國家人權委員會的主張認為這一點是強害人民獨立無私及平等公開之司法權您同意嗎"},{"start":168.346,"end":187.726,"text":"的確有這個爭議好 謝謝部長的回答所以我們再一次在這裡透過論證國家人權委員會他以世界人權宣言以及我們所簽署的兩公約的原則都再一次的告訴我們這一次強行碾壓表決通過的國會擴權法案是違反人權的"},{"start":189.227,"end":216.861,"text":"那下一個呢我要就教於您的就是昨天我聽到在野黨的黨編說要成立國會的在野特徵組部長特徵組2007成立2017廢除嘛是立法院拿掉了法院組織法六三條之一那您認為現在在野黨所說的要再次恢復所謂的在野國會特徵組您的看法如何"},{"start":218.244,"end":246.362,"text":"特徵組是屬於偵查的一個機關那我想以在憲法權利分立的一個原則那這是屬於司法權的這一環所以國會沒有這個權利嗎我們就大法官會議就是大法官的解釋對這部分有清楚的解釋所以沒有所謂什麼國會特徵組成立之必要更沒有合理性它更沒有合憲性 對不對"},{"start":248.024,"end":255.043,"text":"這部分因為我們還是希望以憲法的權力分立原則來看這件事情"},{"start":255.911,"end":280.446,"text":"我都不需要再論述過去特徵組所犯下的相關的違反通保法啦、監察法相關的這個九月政爭的事情我都不用再贅述但是我今天在這裡呢我要再把歷史文件拿出來再說明一次也就是在過去要廢除特徵組在討論法院組織法六三條之一的時候當時的法務部長在這裡他提出了五大反對特徵組繼續存在的理由"},{"start":283.388,"end":311.153,"text":"是說呢,第一,特徵組影響檢查機關內部監督機制,對不對?YES好,那當初的第二點宣言呢違反行政法上機關與職務不兩立的原則,對不對?依舊存在嘛第三個,法務部反對有特徵組是因為呢概括條款明定特徵組的事務管轄是違反了法律明確性的原則這個理由繼續存在嘛,對不對?"},{"start":312.128,"end":341.031,"text":"第四點呢檢察官是具有司法屬性所以沒有再設特徵組的必要對不對所以這部分政策已經決定了最後一項呢當時的法務部說所謂的特徵組是違反在意程序及案件的管考制度所以法務部期期以為不可所以過去的主張如此制度是一套的司法的精神是一致的"},{"start":341.491,"end":354.703,"text":"所以過去既然特徵組被廢除也被立法院自己通過法律來廢除的話現在更沒有所謂成立國會在野特徵組之可能及必要了"},{"start":356.021,"end":356.521,"text":"謝謝部長的回答所以呢"},{"start":379.039,"end":379.659,"text":"謝謝您今天回應我的一些主張跟說明"},{"start":405.888,"end":409.423,"text":"今天回到今天的主題喔強化社會安全網好下一頁"},{"start":410.903,"end":438.345,"text":"現在呢我跟您分享我長期在教育文化委員會那我一直在持續精進的校園三級的輔導機制就是三級心輔機制但是一再的從發展性輔導到介入性輔導到處遇性輔導其實是層層失靈的因為幾乎有六成以上有自殺傾向或是他真正自殺未遂或真的是不幸離開我們的孩子"},{"start":439.737,"end":463.974,"text":"6成以上是沒有被新府機制接住的所以教育部現在正在全面精進檢視現在的校園三級輔導機制下一頁那今天的主題矯正學校也是三級輔導機制就部長您認為現在的矯正學校的三級輔導機制它當然適用跟一般校園不同它有更特殊性的需求現行的三級機制您認為運作得宜嗎"},{"start":466.87,"end":479.904,"text":"目前的運作我想在署務上我是不是可以請那個我們角證的周署長來待會回答好我來那署長您親自在這是一個核心的議題您自己覺得運作得宜嗎"},{"start":481.06,"end":501.728,"text":"報告委員我們的三級機制在第一級它是一般性的是這個一般性是由班導師還有教導人來負責這個制度我都知道您就回答我現在三級您認為在我們矯正學校在三級的機制裡面我們覺得輔導教師這方面切合還有五位我們必須要來爭取來補強"},{"start":505.009,"end":507.511,"text":"我再次來對應教育部的現在正在修學生輔導法吳思瑤提案希望能夠讓大學裡頭的學生輔導是1比900"},{"start":520.538,"end":538.59,"text":"那就是教育部從1比1200要進化到1比900現在法律還沒修正過但是都用公務預算去補強它那現在呢要進入這個核心我剛剛的問題跟命題就是說現在矯正學校的三級輔導機制有沒有運作得宜他就要關乎我們的輔導老師"},{"start":540.424,"end":541.365,"text":"來,署長,您再一次。"},{"start":561.54,"end":579.35,"text":"來按一下那個鈕新社人員不足過18名等一下 輔導老師不足五名 缺五名嘛新理師、社工師缺18名這個我們會來爭取那特教呢我們感謝國教組特教呢 特教老師呢特教足夠 沒問題而且是剛補足的嘛 對不對"},{"start":581.468,"end":608.85,"text":"您又按到鈕了特教這個部分沒問題所以這是重中之重部長您剛上任我就用這一頁來告訴您現在的輔導老師還缺5個然後特教老師是一直補一直補才補上的新社人力還缺18個這是新任部長很重要的工作矯正學校我們不能放棄任何一個孩子這部分您承諾要多久可以來補強"},{"start":610.129,"end":630.194,"text":"我們盡速來補強不行 你要給我一個時間點我跟你講喔 教育部喔還沒有修法之前喔就用預算的方式去來補強喔沒有修法先用預算的方式來補強喔現在大學已經補強了將近八成他是用公務預算來編列喔你可以突破原額的限制你現在問題是出債 聘不到人還是沒有錢"},{"start":639.878,"end":642.659,"text":"教育部的機制學生輔導法是要修法的還沒有修法前教育部就用他的公務預算"},{"start":664.444,"end":683.967,"text":"想方設法用公務預算去補貼學校補強他的心腹能力可以從1比1200進化到1比900現在已經八成的學校還沒修法前他自己就用國家給的預算來補強矯正學校的數量是少的比起教育部要面對一百多個大學"},{"start":685.718,"end":687.54,"text":"一個月內提出我們的方案好嗎?"},{"start":703.672,"end":703.692,"text":"吳思瑤"}]}},{"id":"153378","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153378","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebae79adcab079158d31766e5648a1e6b71446d6a815e913744200077becbf458025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:18:28 - 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how，我一直都說你們是非常重要的關鍵，跨部會整合就需要蒐集所有地方的聲音，提供給相關單位做最重要的評估及最後的決定，這才是重要的。因此，我利用今天的質詢把我們地方的期待及我們地方的需求向主委報告，希望主委可以幫我們轉達，如果真的有機會成立AI研發中心的時候，希望能把臺南作為首要決定的地理位置，這個才是我們需要主委幫忙的地方。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：另外一個部分，我們現在有很多中小企業智慧轉型計畫是由中央協助，主委，你是內行人，在你看過之後，應該知道這些都是屬於教育的部分，並沒有全面，我們協助中小企業智慧轉型不能只有focus在教育這個區塊，應該是要全面性，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：中小企業的智慧轉型不是只有教育，所以我們要問，如果國發會要協助中小企業智慧轉型這個計畫，你們是整合人，在你們整合各部會時是不是應該整合得更為精進、更為提升，而不是單向，反正有做就好了。教育部有在做，你也將它納入說是你的智慧轉型，不是那麼簡單啊！中小企業的智慧轉型不是只有在教育這個區塊，這兩個是差很多，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：你剛剛看到這個計畫，中央撥預算協助臺南市，讓臺南市協助中小企業智慧轉型的一些相關的計畫名稱、計畫內容，我們調出來的居然是這些耶！居然是這些耶！主委，你是內行，在你看完之後有什麼想法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實在我們的計畫中本來就有一段是要照顧傳產，透過AI轉型，我想我們會在整個國家發展計畫中把整體產業一起考慮進來，這樣就不會產生不平衡的現象。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！這是我們用協助中小企業智慧轉型的名稱去調的資料，結果就是調到這幾個，幾乎都是在教育的區塊比較多，這並不是智慧轉型。智慧轉型有很多方向，可是你要去區分什麼是教育、什麼是中小企業、什麼區塊等等，其實每個區塊都是不一樣的。現在智慧轉型已經是重中之重，但你不能好像反正有在做就好了，把別人在做的也拉進中小企業的智慧轉型、把教育部做的也拉進來當作中小企業智慧轉型，這是不對的。這個部分會讓大家覺得到底什麼是智慧轉型？智慧轉型的精神是什麼？這樣會亂掉，所以我要藉此做為提醒。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝提醒。"],["陳委員亭妃：再者，請主委會後給我們一個報告，國發會如何協助賴總統打造五大信賴產業？半導體產業、人工智慧產業、軍工產業、安控產業及通訊產業，針對這五大信賴產業，你們打算怎麼做？國發會打算怎麼幫忙協助打造？區塊在哪裡？產業一定有產業鏈、產業一定有發展區塊、產業一定有產業發展重心，這些重心要在哪裡？你們的平台要在哪裡？你們的方向要在哪裡？你們要先把這些訂出來，你才能幫忙賴清德總統打造信賴的五大產業，我需要這些資料，再麻煩！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：1個月，拜託！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，1個月，沒問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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這個AI的研發中心土地一定是最首要之重嘛 沒土地就不用說了嘛 台南土地一定沒問題嘛 台南看你要選在哪裡我們一定全力支持嘛 然後再來我們也有一些所謂的相關的不斷電資訊的處理系統的一個電力供給 這也都是我們在進行當中 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Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:14:38 - 11:27:20","影片長度":"00:12:42","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:14:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:27:20+08:00","duration":762,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":688,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時14分）主席好，有請金管會主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。今天委員會特別安排「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」的專題報告，我跟主委說，這個會期初3月4號的時候，其實我也有就這個部分來質詢前金管會主委，當時我提到當我們談ESG的時候會提到環境永續的關心，還有企業的社會責任，這個部分金管會提出的綠色金融行動方案3.0所公告的這些，我特別問永續到底有沒有包含原住民族金融？也特別提到幾個國家，像是澳洲，主委，您應該知道他們有建立原住民金融服務辦公室，有關注原住民金融架構設計與服務的包容性，有鼓勵金融機構讓原住民更容易獲得銀行的服務，有強化對原住民有益且適當的保險產品，並且在投資者的盡職調查過程中，尊重原住民的權利，如知情同意。那在紐西蘭呢？它的土地跟我們目前臺灣原住民土地是一樣的，它有限制，所以難以做擔保品，所以它們就辦理計畫跟銀行合作，支持開發針對這些原住民土地貸款的解決方案。在加拿大，他們也是加強原住民族在永續金融的參與，其中提到綠色與轉型金融，他們對於不造成重大損害評估的時候，有包含尊重原住民權利及和解。","反觀我們提出的綠色金融行動方案3.0，好像沒有辦法看到這些有關原住民族參與及支持的機制，更遑論去考量綠色融資對象影響原住民權益的情形，所以我跟主委報告，過去可能沒有人關注、沒有人提醒，那我們現在關注、現在提醒，因此我請金管會要連同原民會去參考澳洲、加拿大、紐西蘭這些國家，在永續金融架構中納入尊重原住民族權利的具體措施來修改綠色金融行動方案，並在3個月內提出。我要跟主委您說，我要謝謝，因為還沒有到3個月，我已經收到金管會的回函了，當中提到：第一、兼顧原住民保留地發展及維護生物多樣性；第二，鼓勵銀行協助原住民取得資金；第三，研議原住民保留地設定擔保的可行性，協調銀行積極配合辦理政策性貸款；第四，提升多元、族群權益的目標，納入永續金融評鑑指標；第五，協力金融教育推動小組，提升原住民族群金融教育推廣。我要請教一下主委，您看過這個回復的內容了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個內容應該是我昨天還前天，我一個字、一個字看完才提的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那您有什麼意見？這樣子就很好了嗎？你自己有沒有什麼建議？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然同仁們針對委員所提的各種訴求，他們都有想盡辦法回應，比如說對於原保地的貸款，他們也提出很多的其他建議，例如希望未來跟原民會合作，或能夠像我們講，因為銀行在貸放需要有透明的價格資訊，希望我們也協調內政部在實價登錄能夠放上原保地的交易價格，還有提到我們也看到有金融機構已經針對原保地做一些抵押貸款，開始有一些量出來，還有我們未來也會持續跟原委會針對一些資訊的揭露，比如說原保地的資訊揭露越多，可以讓更多的銀行願意在他們的風險控管情況之下來增加對原住民的金融服務，我想這部分我們來努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，主委，謝謝您的回應，非常的清楚，我要再作一些提醒，好還要更好，我舉個例子，銀行可協助原住民參考永續經濟活動認定參考指引來認定永續經濟活動的要件，我們進去細看，我以原住民的觀點去細看，我真的不知道對我有什麼幫助，我也不太知道哪一點我可以使用到，所以我想請教主委，像原保地造林確實是碳捕捉，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：現在小型露營場合法化，很多原住民針對林地、農牧用地有做最低限度利用開發的小型露營場，它也是一種低碳和循環經濟的活動，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：同意。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：它應該適用「永續經濟活動認定參考指引」，沒錯嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，可以允許我們處長來回答這個問題嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，我只是要提醒我們原住民這些經常性的、普遍性的經濟活動也要了解啊！要不然寫一堆，以我來講，我都不知道我到底適用哪一條，所以這個部分是不是可以討論？"],["胡處長則華：是，跟委員報告一下，就我們目前了解，原住民比較有興趣的包含像是再生能源，例如光電板的建置，像剛剛委員所說的碳捕捉的部分，其實可以看右邊前瞻經濟活動裡面有再生能源的建置，在第9項其實也有碳捕捉，例如有些原民可能對循環經濟的部分有興趣，也有第12項，如果他們去跟銀行業貸款的話，銀行業可以參考右邊前瞻經濟活動來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：擔保品會是什麼？"],["胡處長則華：這可能要看銀行。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我說我們原住民這些適用嗎？這個部分我只是提醒，主委應該明白我的意思。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我理解。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：舉例來講，像增加銀行的誘因，董事、負責人、高階經理人，鼓勵強化高階人員金融友善教育訓練、檢視現階段提供的金融服務、兼顧弱勢族群的需求。很好！但是我覺得當我們來到銀行窗口核貸的一線人員，你覺得重不重要？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實每個環節都很重要。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以我要提醒，我們都提到弱勢族群，但是第一線的人員或者銀行會如何定義弱勢族群？他可能以為是老人啊！他有可能以為是青年啊！他會想到是原住民族群嗎？我上次質詢主委的時候，我也要特別謝謝您，那是5月22日，但是你已經回復了，已要求評鑑小組將原住民放款指標列入未來評鑑項目，並請原民會提供研訂建議。謝謝，真的是劍及履及，主委您真的很不錯，我希望請金管會2個月內能夠綜整原民會的意見跟本席提出的這些疑義，檢討現有評鑑指標的不足，因為金管會會提供你們的建議給評鑑小組，在這之前是否先來跟我們討論？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在回復意見裡面有提到，未來我們也會請原住民代表參加我們的諮詢會議，很多的意見可以直接在那邊表達。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委。再請教財政部長，因為我也問過很多次，財政部是不是已經將承作原保地放貸納入公股行庫的ESG評鑑指標，並列為加分項目以提高公股銀行承作的誘因和意願，有嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員這個建議很好，但是我們會在目前相關鑑價及信用保證機制建立完備，讓公股行庫可以去做這件事之後，我們就會把它加入指標。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你預期大概多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為鑑價的部分涉及到內政部，信用保證機制原民會這邊也在努力，我想這兩個部會都在努力，我們把這個建立起來，公股行庫可以做的時候把它放進來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我舉個例子，之前有一些都會，像新北市的三鶯，他們是歷史成因，幾十年前就在那邊居住，但是土地不是他們私人的，可是也有所謂333，就是三分之一自己承擔、三分之一政府負擔、三分之一銀行幫忙。今年3月高雄市也有拉瓦克部落的拆遷，陳其邁市長也很棒，他直接說原住民是臺灣土地的主人，從優安置，也給予333的安置。屏東八八風災後這一些安居在永久屋的族人，有一些並沒有辦法取得房屋，因為是1比1，所以他們希望釋出一些空地，讓他們自己蓋。如果原民會願意提供信用保證，我們能不能比照我剛才談的那些其他國家，它們的永續金融中心，像紐西蘭有協助原住民自立建屋，因為現在政府已經提供基礎建設的經費，縣政府也釋出土地讓他們使用，現在要面臨貸款，今天應該很多銀行都有來，我想當著財政部長的面問一下，請問在座的公股銀行，你們有沒有人願意主動承接貸款業務？有沒有，舉個手。部長，你看沒有耶！有沒有獎勵措施？有沒有誘因？"],["主席：部長……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有了嗎？臺灣銀行！謝謝臺灣銀行，感謝您。"],["主席：呂董請。"],["呂董事長桔誠：我想我們一定很樂意做，但是一定要條件具備完整。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可以放長嗎？他們最期待的是放長年限，減輕每個月負擔，可以嗎？"],["呂董事長桔誠：不要緊，這可以討論。"],["主席：伍委員，這個沒有辦法具體回復，請他們會後跟你具體回復。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK，謝謝部長，謝謝主委，謝謝董事長。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員，休息10分鐘。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時37分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接著請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 ESG\n制度評鑑，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00010"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.0897187500000003,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.89034375,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.396593750000001,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.83096875,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.51846875,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.930343750000002,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.47721875,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.94909375,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.955968750000004,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":70.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.74971875,"end":76.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.13284375,"end":78.75284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.02284375,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.06534375,"end":205.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.26034375,"end":213.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.85409375,"end":248.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.19034375,"end":252.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":252.09284375000001,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.44221875,"end":257.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.52221875000004,"end":260.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.51346875,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":260.59784375000004,"end":260.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":262.77471875000003,"end":262.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":263.97284375000004,"end":316.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.17971875,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.08284375,"end":316.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.74096875000004,"end":325.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.51596875,"end":326.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.20346875,"end":339.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.16346875000005,"end":343.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.90971875,"end":346.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.93034375,"end":350.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.18284375,"end":353.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.73096875000005,"end":355.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.87409375000004,"end":357.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":359.16471875,"end":359.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.19846875,"end":359.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":359.21534375000005,"end":359.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.19409375000004,"end":374.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.79909375,"end":384.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":385.30409375000005,"end":385.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":385.92846875000004,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.03346875,"end":398.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.56784375,"end":399.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.39034375,"end":405.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.89159375,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.49909375000004,"end":448.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.53284375000004,"end":407.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.73409375,"end":415.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.33721875000003,"end":416.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.99034375,"end":422.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.42096875000004,"end":447.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.50096875,"end":453.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.09971875,"end":451.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.02346875,"end":454.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.87971875000005,"end":463.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":457.37721875000005,"end":457.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":459.26721875000004,"end":460.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.36346875000004,"end":471.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.93596875000003,"end":479.24721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.78721875,"end":480.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.61409375000005,"end":481.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.74471875,"end":482.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.50409375000004,"end":487.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.03909375,"end":489.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":490.99221875,"end":492.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.03846875000005,"end":492.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":492.22409375,"end":492.240968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謝謝我只是要提醒我們原住民這些經常性的普遍性的經濟活動也要了解啊要不然寫一堆以我來講我都不知道到底我適用哪一條所以這個部分是不是可以來討論"},{"start":406.582,"end":420.94,"text":"好來跟委員報告一下就我們目前了解就是原住民這邊大概比較有興趣的包含像是對再生能源例如說像光電板的建制然後像剛剛委員這邊所說的這個碳補桌的部分其實可以看那個右邊前瞻經濟活動"},{"start":422.662,"end":429.607,"text":"在第9項這邊其實也有探譜桌的那譬如說像有一些這個原民他們可能對這個循環經濟的部分也是有興趣那也有第12項這種如果說他們去跟銀行業這邊去做貸款的話那銀行業可以參考這個右邊這邊前瞻經濟活動單保品會是什麼"},{"start":449.022,"end":471.4,"text":"這個可能就要看銀行這邊他們所以我說我們原住民這些適用嗎我想這個部分我只是做提醒主委您應該明白我的意思我理解又舉個例子來講像增加銀行的誘因那當然董事負責人高階經理人鼓勵強化高階人員金融友善教育訓練"},{"start":474.219,"end":489.27,"text":"檢視現階段提供的金融服務兼顧弱勢族群的需求很好很好但是主委我覺得當我們來到銀行窗口何待的一線人員您覺得重不重要"},{"start":491.298,"end":505.867,"text":"這個其實每個環節都很重要對所以我就是要提醒那我們都提到弱勢族群但是第一線的人員或者銀行他會如何去定義弱勢族群他可能以為是老人啊他可能以為是青年啊"},{"start":506.747,"end":521.261,"text":"那他會想到是原住民族群嗎所以這個提醒我只是說我希望我上次質詢我們主委您的時候我也要特別謝謝您那是5月22號"},{"start":522.802,"end":545.818,"text":"但是你已經回覆了以要求評鑑小組將原住民放款的指標列入未來評鑑項目並請原民會提供嚴定的建議謝謝真的是見急履急主委你真的很不錯那我是希望說請金管會兩個月內能夠去重整原民會的意見跟本席提出的這些疑議檢討現有"},{"start":547.639,"end":547.859,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":578.089,"end":593.495,"text":"部長我是想要請教因為我也問過很多次財政部是不是已經將乘坐元寶地放貸納入公股行庫的ESG評鑑指標並列為加分項目然後提高公股銀行乘坐的誘因跟意願有了嗎"},{"start":594.375,"end":622.02,"text":"委員這個建議很好但是我們會在有關相關目前的一個建架跟信用保證機制建立完備讓供股行戶可以去做這個事情以後我們就會把你預期大概多久那這個部分因為建架的部分涉及到內政部那信用保證機制原民會這邊也在努力我想這兩個部會都在努力我們把這個地方建立起來大家都在努力中供股行戶可以做的時候把它放出來那我就舉一個例子來我們之前有一些"},{"start":623.16,"end":625.221,"text":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe"},{"start":641.992,"end":662.675,"text":"那最近今年3月的高雄市也有一個拉瓦克部落的拆遷那陳其邁市長也很棒他直接說原住民是臺灣土地的主人從優安置也給予333的安置那我現在要請教在屏東88風災後這一些安居在永久屋的族人吶"},{"start":663.476,"end":689.733,"text":"有一些他們並沒有辦法取得房屋因為是1比1所以他們希望釋出一些空地讓他們自己蓋那我現在就是想要請教啦那我們現在如果原民會願意提供信用保證那我們能不能夠比照我剛才談的那些其他國家他們的永續金融中心像紐西蘭他們有在協助這種原住民的自立建屋啊"},{"start":690.433,"end":712.577,"text":"因為現在政府已經提供基礎建設的經費現政府也釋出土地讓他們使用現在要面臨貸款今天應該很多銀行都有來我就想要當著財政部長您的面我問一下請問在座的根股銀行你們有沒有人願意主動承接貸款業務有沒有舉個手部長你看沒有呢有沒有獎勵措施有沒有誘因"},{"start":722.318,"end":723.183,"text":"有了嗎?臺灣銀行?好!謝謝!臺灣銀行感謝您!"},{"start":727.728,"end":728.108,"text":"我們休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"153376","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaea6bffbb89ae7a424622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744f7737f26cfe0d6d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:03:53 - 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第二個部分就是那天主委剛上任我就問過主委一件事大家今天要同時問一下部長財政部其實在111年大家在討論說現在的很有名的叫做網紅然後網紅要不要科稅科稅的模式所以你們去做了一個研究報告網紅獲利模式跟嚴定中所稅的課稅規範這個報告在112年4月就已經出爐了"},{"start":161.03,"end":185.467,"text":"那現在希望這個報告的建議事項是要提供一個所謂嚴體網紅科稅須知或問答集的QA但是我還沒有看到財政部的問答集也沒有看到QA也沒有看到科稅規範我們先看到了金管會針對網紅做了一個非常有可愛的定義來主委你現在那天問你你說你不知道什麼是網紅現在你知道了嗎"},{"start":187.97,"end":189.672,"text":"就是金管會的網紅定義"},{"start":201.141,"end":225.073,"text":"知道了我們金管會是因為太多的投信投顧業他應該要取得執照才可以做相關的所謂的解析但是我們現在的網紅每個都是投資專家每一個都在他的社群網站上面可以告訴大家哪個股票很棒哪個什麼事情很好所以投信投顧業他定了一個定義網紅你們找不到是嗎那我唸給你聽好了"},{"start":226.133,"end":237.763,"text":"常態性與網路．包括但不限社群媒體．影音平台或線上媒體．發表資訊內容供大眾閱覽．並以此引力者也就是他引力為目標所以"},{"start":238.834,"end":266.248,"text":"那請問莊部長你們的網紅定義出來了嗎?基本我們沒有所謂的網紅也就是說你在網路上實銷貨物所以沒有網紅這個定義我們重點是在於你透過網路去直銷貨物或勞務你有所得要怎麼課稅那這個課稅我們現在命在剛剛委員很清楚我們在訂相關的規範那這規範大概原則有了那細節的部分我們還進行要訂的更詳細那未來會讓他非常的詳細的"},{"start":267.048,"end":267.268,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":286.141,"end":307.899,"text":"投信投顧其實不是最多網紅的問題其實現在最多的部分代言的人叫做虛擬資產虛擬資產運用各種不同的網紅在網路上面不斷的宣傳因為虛擬資產沒有管理辦法所以幫他代言更沒有管理規範如果我們真的要規範不是只有規範投信投顧"},{"start":308.92,"end":323.126,"text":"接下去的虛擬資產現在有一堆網紅在做代言目前虛擬資產又沒有知道原則所以基本叫做無法可管所以我今天要說的是就剛剛主委說的我們要課稅原則"},{"start":324.821,"end":325.281,"text":"也不知道什麼是網紅啊"},{"start":354.54,"end":366.695,"text":"因為你們的報告我看到的是你們就是要去討論網紅獲利模式所以現在又不是網紅只要網路通過的你們就來討論所以部長你可能要在麥克風前面講"},{"start":370.94,"end":389.879,"text":"委託研究那個是一個名稱但是事實上在這裡面我們未來課稅沒有所謂的網紅就是你透過網路去銷售貨物老屋依照現行的法規要課什麼稅我今天指的目的就是希望它的定義清楚目標明確第二個該納管的要納管而不是只有投信投顧在納管虛擬資產完全沒人管"},{"start":390.84,"end":402.904,"text":"主委你了解我的意思剛剛委員提到我們現在虛擬資產是有那個指引只有一個指引但是沒有任何管理辦法所以即使是幫他代言因為現在這樣的狀況跟詐騙其實是有連結的"},{"start":408.726,"end":437.385,"text":"我們希望要納管就認真的納管而不是掛一漏萬好 另外一個問題就是上一次我有質詢郭部長新清安貸款當然是我們新的政策對於居住正義很大的幫助那新清安貸款我們上次也問過了問了一些問題今天主委新來我們就來一起再問一次因為新清安貸款它有一個很重要的要求要求自住所以自住裡面它就不可以所謂的租出去"},{"start":438.166,"end":438.306,"text":"黃珊珊"},{"start":455.675,"end":478.871,"text":"都到現場了吧我想問一下各位銀行你們對於新清安貸款有自助的稽查事實行為的部分請舉手有去現場看現場好大部分都有工股都很好那第二個如果他沒有自助的話部裡面銀行應該怎麼處理金管會兩位"},{"start":482.951,"end":510.236,"text":"跟委員報告新清安貸款如您剛剛說它有好的一個政策意義但是不只被人濫用拿去做所謂的投機這是最重要的一點它變成人頭它變成拿出去轉租對這是不可以的那所以這個部分呢我們第一個要請公股航庫對於我們用清安貸款貸出去的這個對象我們可能要去分析一下它真正搞不好還跟你申請了還跟內政部申請了租金補貼或者是貸款補貼"},{"start":512.097,"end":515.36,"text":"我們希望這些給年輕人的善意的政策不要讓年輕人成為炒房的工具甚至用納稅的錢去做了這些補貼最後變成這些包租工"},{"start":531.358,"end":553.495,"text":"黃珊珊 拿來用他們人頭來去賺錢而且最重要是新簽案貸款的確是現在是市場的儲留我們也不希望它成為炒房的工具所以接下來去目前為止我們的公股航空應該都有做稽查但是一樣事後要做勾機那最後就是我希望今天兩位在現場剛剛我講的這個網紅的問題可能是現在市場上面普遍"},{"start":559.434,"end":574.249,"text":"民眾因為沒有對於相關的資訊不是很完整所以他會受到網紅的影響而且影響力很大這個影響力連金管會信投顧這邊都非常的謹慎同樣的虛擬資產我希望包括"},{"start":575.974,"end":592.817,"text":"財政部我也希望你們擬出來以後類似的人不管他是哪個行業都應該是一視同仁而且該怎麼做就怎麼做所以主委你不能只管投信投顧啊你可能要連虛擬資產的網紅要一起納管如果要納管我們可能就要全面性的納管兩位可以嗎"},{"start":593.547,"end":596.229,"text":"所以主委 研議要快一點 因為虛擬資產已經是一個成熟的市場了"},{"start":612.6,"end":612.82,"text":"黃珊珊委員"}]}},{"id":"153375","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153375","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaed9db607d2729fbf4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374468c8e8e800dff9935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:52:51 - 11:03:46","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:52:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T11:03:46+08:00","duration":655,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時52分）感謝召委，我可不可以邀請主委跟莊部長。"],["主席：有請彭主委、莊部長。"],["李委員彥秀：今天兩位都在，非常好，我先延續一下剛才李委員的問題，有關三商美邦跟新壽的部分。剛才主委的態度也說明得很清楚，這兩家都在這個月送出他們的財務改善計畫了，那我想請問一下彭主委，財務改善計畫送出來之後，接下來如果他們努力了，但是仍舊沒有辦法達到適足率RBC百分之兩百的話，那你們的作法會是什麼？您的作法會是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在所有的步驟都是根據保險法裡面對於資本不足分級管理的步驟來做，我們不預期未來它的結果如何，我們就按照這樣的階段，其實我們過去已經有非常明確的步驟來做這件事情。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道過去黃主委有非常清楚的步驟在處理，那後續它努力了，你會再給一些時間嗎？後續包括金控合併的部分，因為最近您上任之前這段時間，金控也非常的熱鬧，一下子傳哪一個金控跟哪一個金控合併，這兩天新聞都好多，所以金控合併跟改善體質這兩件事情，您的立場是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：根據保險法的規定，我們依法請它提出各種改善計畫，這本來就是各家公司的……"],["李委員彥秀：那如果藉由合併改善體質，你的態度呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才提到過，合併不會立刻改善它的情況，因為合併只會把……"],["李委員彥秀：那你會同意合併嗎？藉由合併來達到RBC百分之兩百的目標嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：合併這部分我們尊重市場機制，但是合併它一定會仔細分析其利弊得失，我們在做……"],["李委員彥秀：我清楚，它也會跟你們溝通。那如果在第一個階段沒有辦法達到的話，你們會給予更多的監理寬容嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：監理寬容是一致性的啦，不會針對各家公司而做。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，我問的就是這兩家，你會給更多的監理寬容？因為他們現在已經提出他們的改善計畫，可能沒有辦法一步到位，後續你們的態度是什麼，你的態度是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，比如說，我們依法請他們在一定時限內提供所謂的改善計畫，這是法律定的，這並不是寬容措施，這個就是我們過去……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，要達到。如果他們提後續包括金控合併來改善壽險體質的方法，您支持嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要看具體的計畫，我們才能決定。"],["李委員彥秀：好，所以你也不反對，要看到它送出的計畫。好，謝謝。","我還是要問一下部長，這一段時間外界非常關心的除了當沖降稅之外，還有另外一個就是金融營業稅調降的問題，請問部長，你有收到金管會的建議函了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：金管會的建議函─事實上在年初已經給我們，就是表達他們的意見，他們的意見最主要就是說，金融特別準備金裡面的錢，希望還是能夠留存在那邊。至於……"],["李委員彥秀：好，2,100億的部分可以留存在這個準備金裡面，在存保裡頭。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，在準備金裡面，不去動它。至於未來所收的金融營業稅是否要進入金融準備金的部分，他沒有意見；至於稅率怎麼樣調整……"],["李委員彥秀：2%還是3%，你們有討論過了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，對於金融營業稅未來要怎麼調整，就是今年屆滿以後要怎麼調整，我們跟金管會也有充分地討論跟溝通。"],["李委員彥秀：方向是什麼？我知道你們有充分討論過了、有共識了，有共識了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們就整個金融業的金融營業稅過往的歷史怎麼樣演變，以及歷次調整的原因是什麼，我們先去做了一個探討；第二個，金融營業稅對於整個金融業的國際競爭力，以及未來的發展，我們都做討論……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，這個我都清楚，沒關係，你、我都清楚，你只要告訴我答案就好，因為我等一下還要問ESG相關問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我們還是在繼續討論當中。"],["李委員彥秀：你會支持金管會建議書的意見嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：金融建議書裡面對於我們要放在金融準備金的部分，我們基本上是支持的，因為留存……"],["李委員彥秀：就是2,100億還是會放在存保裡面，到底降到2%還是3%，有共識了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：2%、3%或者是百分之幾，這個部分我們還在討論，以及做相關的試算。"],["李委員彥秀：也在試算當中，所以還在磨合當中就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們在討論當中。"],["李委員彥秀：有機會、有共識，不是2%就是3%，但是不知道是百分之幾？"],["莊部長翠雲：也沒這麼說，我沒有，我只是說調降為百分之幾，我們還在討論。"],["李委員彥秀：那你什麼時候會對外公布？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分也跟法律的修正會有關係，所以我們必須要完成相關的一定程序。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，大概是什麼時候？總是有一個時程表吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：如果要修正的話，我們一定會依照法律做預告。"],["李委員彥秀：因為年底到期嘛，所以大概是什麼時候？因為是法律修正案，這個會期到7月中，大概是什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為整個金融營業稅的部分是到年底，所以我們在年底之前一定會有一個結果。"],["李委員彥秀：年底之前，下個會期一開始就會送？"],["莊部長翠雲：預估應該會在下個會期。"],["李委員彥秀：一開始就會送？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為這個會期到7月15號嘛，那預告都還要60天。"],["李委員彥秀：OK，所以下個會期就一定會送。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，下個會期。"],["李委員彥秀：一開議就會送？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，就會有結果。"],["李委員彥秀：好，部長你請回。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我請主委，主委，接下來我還是要問一下ESG制度的評鑑策略。昨天您到我辦公室，我們第一次見面溝通的時候，我有跟您提到ESG的部分，我們目前著重的部分都在環境保護，ESG的部分跟公司治理的部分，但在社會責任的部分，我覺得有更多加強的地方，昨天我們有討論到，當然我覺得ESG隨著環境的變化、需求，可以有一些調整的空間。我昨天也跟你提到，當然政府的職能有限，預算也有限，您過去從學校、校園出來，你非常知道公部門的預算有限，所以有沒有機會在評鑑的部分……好比說在我的選區裡面，過去的潭美國小就是一個在工業區裡面的學校，校舍很破舊，環境也不好，當然經過大家的努力，現在環境好一些。所以我一直在思考，在企業的社會責任裡面，有沒有機會在我們的公務預算、政府職能或預算不足的部分，再加一個評鑑的項目在裡頭？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們有兩個方向，剛才跟委員也報告過，我們有一個公司治理評鑑，另外一個是永續金融評鑑。剛才提的應該是公司治理評鑑，未來我們要轉型做ESG，這部分我們的指標是隨時滾動調整的。"],["李委員彥秀：所以主委，這部分有沒有機會納入滾動式，機動調整來支持這樣的一個項目？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所有有助於推動的部分，我覺得他們在執行評鑑時都可以納入他們的委員會去討論，這部分他們有一個指標的檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：所以主委你支不支持？你個人支不支持這件事情？政府的職能有限，對於公立的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我當然是持支持的態度。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為它是ESG裡面的一塊。"],["李委員彥秀：感謝主委的回應。我接下來還是要請問一下，剛才也有其他委員提到，包括金融機構防漂綠參考指引的部分，現在大家都在做這些永續的經營，但是我們有一些指標其實是非常清楚的，我們對於很多財報裡面的要求，事實上是非常嚴格的，我請問一下部長，對於這些我們現在的指引是屬於柔性的勸導，未來如果違反的話，管理的作為會是柔性的勸導，還是未來我們會做開罰的動作？因為這牽涉到的刑罰還是罰款都罰得很重，包括公開發行公司的公司治理裡面也要做永續的申報書，它也要揭露氣候相關的一些資訊跟資料，這部分當然有一些永續報告書可能避重就輕、有一些隱惡揚善的部分，如果在財報跟業務文件裡面是虛偽的記載，我們擔心這涉及到刑罰跟裁罰，非常的嚴重，所以我才請教部長對於現在的要求，你們到底是柔性的勸導還是未來就要開始執行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。剛剛提到的指引，現在我們是叫做指引，我們會施行一個階段，按照我們過去的步驟再考慮是不是納入自律規範，逐步來看，因為剛開始做可能需要一些調適跟調整。再來，剛才委員提到這到底有沒有涉及到所謂的刑責，其實我們剛剛也有報告過，比如我們現在的永續報告書是交易所提供的，這樣的要求還沒有納入我們剛剛所謂的法律規定文件裡面，但假設它納入年報的話，大概就有這樣的一個效力，有分階段的。"],["李委員彥秀：是，謝謝主委您的回應。因為我關注到司法院前院長賴英照之前有寫一篇文章，他說永續報告書所揭露的資訊必須真實無欺，如果內容造假，自然就應當負法律責任，最重可能還達到十年的刑罰，所以我才會問金管會的態度到底是什麼，我也支持有一段時間必須是宣導，柔性的勸導以瞭解大家的想法是怎麼樣，在執行一段時間之後，我們再來看指引有沒有調整的必要性，調整的必要性除了我們要配合氣候變遷相關的一些資訊，符合國際潮流之外，我們也要看看到底大家能不能達到這樣的目標，謝謝主委您的回應，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。","接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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剛也有報告過我們現在的比如說這永續報告書是交易所他提供的這樣的要求他還沒有納入到我們剛剛這裡面這所謂的那個文件就法律規定的文件裡面當然假設他納入年報的話那個大概就是有這樣的一個效力"},{"start":598.244,"end":620.209,"text":"謝謝主委您的回應因為我關注到司法院副院長賴英兆其實之前就有寫了一篇文章他說永續報告書所揭露的資訊必須真實無期如果內容造假自然就應當負法律責任那最重的可能還要達到10年的刑罰所以金管會我才問金管會這邊您的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":620.489,"end":620.869,"text":"黃珊珊委員"}]}},{"id":"153374","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153374","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba7ccf73d502d08a324622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744debf3000fae568745ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:42:19 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10:52:44","影片長度":"00:10:25","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:42:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T10:52:44+08:00","duration":625,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時42分）謝謝主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。今天談ESG，ESG就代表環境、社會及公司治理，請教一下主委，銀行業、證券業、保險業都有資本適足率的要求，如果沒有達到資本適足率的話，它的永續金融評鑑有可能達到高分嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個指標上面應該是沒有參採這一塊。"],["李委員坤城：什麼意思？指標上面沒有資本適足率嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：ESG的部分，因為指標非常非常多啦……"],["李委員坤城：對，我問的是在公司治理這部分，沒有含資本適足率嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個可不可以容許我稍微確認一下再跟委員報告？"],["李委員坤城：有沒有要補充的？這個不會影響到嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前公司治理評鑑裡面的指標確實沒有含這個……"],["李委員坤城：沒有含資本適足率？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：哇！我們提到像新光人壽或是三商美邦人壽，都沒有達到資本適足率，這表示他們在公司治理方面有問題啊，那沒有列到這個ESG的評鑑裡面啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實公司治理跟資本適足這兩個觀念其實不太一樣，確實衡量的角度是不同的。"],["李委員坤城：這個指標是參考誰的？ESG的指標。"],["彭主任委員金隆：ESG的指標，我想比如說從聯合國開始，很多……"],["李委員坤城：不是啦！我的意思是說……"],["彭主任委員金隆：……組織裡面而來的。"],["李委員坤城：你認不認為資本適足率也應該列入ESG的評鑑標準裡面？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在的指標是有間接啦，比如說，你因為資本適足率不足而被裁罰，裁罰在ESG裡面可能會被扣分。"],["李委員坤城：我是認為這個東西應該要列進去才對啊，因為這象徵一個公司的治理問題，我們對資本適足率的要求這麼嚴格，結果卻沒有列到ESG的標準裡面，我也是覺得蠻奇怪的。請教一下主委，有關三商美邦人壽及新光人壽要改善資本適足率，你們有收到相關的報告了嗎？在上個禮拜。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們收到了。"],["李委員坤城：有收到了？兩家都收到了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：收到了。"],["李委員坤城：收到了啊，局長要補充嗎？收到之後看的情況怎麼樣？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，因為我們剛收到，還要再細部評估它的可行性……"],["李委員坤城：哪時候收到的？"],["施局長瓊華：上禮拜。"],["李委員坤城：上禮拜幾？幾號？"],["施局長瓊華：一個是5月24號，另外一個是5月16號。"],["李委員坤城：5月16號是收到誰的？"],["施局長瓊華：三商。"],["李委員坤城：那5月24日？"],["施局長瓊華：新光。"],["李委員坤城：都已經超過兩個禮拜了，到現在還看不出來？先看一下比較久的好了，三商人壽5月16號……"],["施局長瓊華：因為有一些細節還要跟他們溝通，尤其是他們在提方案的時候，有很多需要討論的事項。"],["李委員坤城：根據三商美邦人壽在5月28日的法說會中所公布的，提升資本適足率（RBC）的強化計畫有4項，第一項是辦理3億股現金增資；第二項是私募普通股或特別股40億股；第三項是私募國內可轉換公司債30億元；以及第四項發行10年期累積次順位普通公司債50億元，這些有包含在裡面嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：有，它有提出來。"],["李委員坤城：都有提出來？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["李委員坤城：請問局長或是主委，主委，你認為這樣夠嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：主要我們還要評估它發債的可行性還有相關的細節……"],["李委員坤城：也就是說認為這50億元的次順位普通公司債有可行性的問題嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：對，我們還在評估這個部分。"],["李委員坤城：這個是三商美邦人壽的財務改善計畫，好像法說會都有說出來了，結果5月16號給你們的資料，你們到現在還沒有整理出一個重點，今天其實大家都會問到，那新光人壽的部分呢？"],["施局長瓊華：新光人壽也有提出來，我們也還在評估它的計畫，到底它能不能達到RBC的法定標準。"],["李委員坤城：如果要達到資本適足率的話，我算了一下，新光人壽在5月24號的董事會通過了財務改善計畫，大概會增加250億，那這樣的話能夠達到資本適足率嗎？有辦法嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：我們要去看它的假設情境，除了這個部分，它還會再發債25億，大概還有這個數字。"],["李委員坤城：這是哪時候的事情？"],["施局長瓊華：應該會在下半年，下半年再加上發債25億。"],["李委員坤城：那這樣夠嗎？這樣是275億，這樣夠嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：現在就是它試算出來的東西，我們再細部評估到底有沒有辦法做得到……"],["李委員坤城：你們心中應該有一個標準吧？如果它的財務改善計畫都達到了，比如說它增資275億的話，我只問說那這樣子有達到資本適足率的要求嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，我們還要再算一下，因為上禮拜送來，我們有一些假設情境要跟他們再確認……"],["李委員坤城：哪時候會算出來？"],["施局長瓊華：應該是會再請他們就這個部分再送一些補充資料過來，我們會儘快啦。"],["李委員坤城：那大概也有一個期限嘛，不管是一個月或是兩個月，總是會有一個期限嘛。我對你們有要求，你對他們有要求，期限就出來了。"],["施局長瓊華：討論完之後，我們會跟他溝通，那確認的話，應該一個月內會確認他們的方向。"],["李委員坤城：一個月內確認他們的方向？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["李委員坤城：然後再評估說到底這個方向可不可行？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["李委員坤城：這個不知道又要多久時間。主委，有沒有一個時間？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想各位剛才看到不管是三商或是新光提出的方案，其實這只是一個方案，但實際上還牽涉到非常多的細部，當然，如果說按照這個方案做了，它的RBC當然會有改善，但是能不能做得到，這確實要跟他們討論才知道。"],["李委員坤城：對，提出方案之後，能不能做到又是一回事，那你們就會評估說他們能不能做得到嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。也就是我們初步的話，剛剛局長說，一個月之內我們可以跟它溝通確認它的計畫的可行性。我想就這部分，因為我們過去……"],["李委員坤城：好。再請教一下主委，新光金是新光人壽的唯一股東，現在市場上有傳言說，可能台新金要併新光金，或是中信金要併新光金，那請教一下，上述的市場傳言如果成真，會影響或是說會改善新光人壽未來資本適足率的達成嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實合併是一個物理效應，它沒辦法馬上產生增資的效果，因為它本來就是一個合併的主體。那當然剛剛有講說，資本不足是它的子公司不足，當然剛剛也提到，因為我們的金控基本上都是百分之百持股，母公司就是唯一的一人股東，所以合併這部分，等於說任何一家金控合併這一家金控公司百分之百持有的子公司，未來根據金控法第五十三條的義務，所有的金控公司對於子公司有增資要求都有法定籌資的義務，我想這個部分應該會考慮。剛剛委員提到的這些都是傳聞，而且他們各個公司也有出來表示意見……"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是，不論是台新金或是中信金，我在想我們現在的焦點還是在新光人壽，因為國內保險業者將於2026年正式接軌IFRS17的新制度以及ICS2.0新一代的清償能力制度，會造成壽險公司蠻大的資金缺口。尤其對新光人壽來講，有估算過，如果在2025年接軌之前，它需要現金增資1,000多億，如果明年沒有達到這1,000多億的話，它在2026年其實是沒辦法接軌的，所以它是不是有很大的資金缺口？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，剛剛您提到的那個數字都是報紙寫的，實際上剛才講，我們現在整個接軌新制度的話，它涉及到我們現在已經提供了三階段的過渡跟調適措施，實際上我們也都在試算，而且這個制度最後我們是要2026年才接軌，市場上也對這個金額有很多的傳言，事實上都不是最後確定的數字。"],["李委員坤城：那會比這個還高嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：各個公司的條件不同，這沒辦法用單一……"],["李委員坤城：我現在只關心兩家公司，就是新光人壽跟三商人壽。"],["彭主任委員金隆：從目前來看，確實以我們現在的資本適足的條件來看，確實現在新光、三商這兩家公司是不符合現階段我們的RBC制度的。"],["李委員坤城：是啊。那再請教，之前的黃主委有對新光人壽的董事長魏寶生加以裁罰，現在好像是看在你的面子上，他有放棄提出行政訴願……"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該不是，這是他們自己考慮的結果。"],["李委員坤城：跟你沒有關係就對了？跟你沒有關係，不是因為你們之前曾經共事過，他當金融總會秘書長的時候，你是副秘書長，不是因為這層關係？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不是啊！我想這部分他們有自己的考量。"],["李委員坤城：好。今天談ESG，其實ESG是一個好生意，很多金融產品也都掛上ESG，但是很多是掛羊頭賣狗肉，我看到你們有一個ESG的指引，是不是？這個有確定了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我剛才跟其他委員報告過，我最近幾天剛批了一個公文，最近應該會發布。"],["李委員坤城：你們有這個「金融機構防漂綠參考指引」嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們對於各種的，不管是文字描述或是很多的認定，我們都有寫更清楚的指引給大家參考。"],["李委員坤城：這個指引能不能給我們一份？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["李委員坤城：因為你簽過了嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["李委員坤城：給我們一份。謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。接著請李彥秀委員質詢，在伍麗華委員質詢之後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 ESG\n制度評鑑，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00010"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.5115937500000003,"end":5.127218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.83221875,"end":3.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.549093750000001,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.78471875,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.649093750000002,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.977843750000002,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.09971875,"end":22.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.242218750000003,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.59221875,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.988468750000003,"end":31.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.751593750000005,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.78909375,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.63284375,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.299093750000004,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.31596875,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.75471875,"end":40.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.17659375,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.893468750000004,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.002843750000004,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.45846875,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.91409375,"end":46.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.63971875,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.27221875,"end":49.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.44471875,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.963468750000004,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.89534375,"end":72.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.41596875,"end":83.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.86596875000001,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.61221875000001,"end":94.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.13471875,"end":96.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.54784375000001,"end":94.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.14659375000001,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.29346875,"end":107.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.09846875000001,"end":110.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.57471875,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.89409375000001,"end":125.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.37846875000001,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.79596875000001,"end":127.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.97721875000002,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.87471875,"end":136.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.85346875000002,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.78159375,"end":138.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.11471875,"end":139.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.55346875,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.54909375,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.96221875,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.06346875,"end":144.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.67471875,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.74596875,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.41659375,"end":152.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.66534375,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.35284375,"end":158.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.67284375,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.00159375,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.04346875000002,"end":163.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.83659375000002,"end":165.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.88721875000002,"end":164.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.06409375,"end":166.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.09346875,"end":169.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.55284375000002,"end":173.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.72159375,"end":170.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.12221875,"end":180.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.24846875,"end":174.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.55971875,"end":189.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.25034375,"end":190.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.38096875000002,"end":204.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.25221875000003,"end":205.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.81284375,"end":208.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.96034375000002,"end":210.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.56784375,"end":209.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.56346875000003,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.220968750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已經超過兩個禮拜了 到現在還看不出來喔那先看一下比較久的好了 三商美幫人壽5月16號因為有一些細節還要跟他們溝通啦尤其是他們在提方案的時候有很多的需要討論的事項這個齁 根據那個三商美幫人壽在5月18的這個說明會裡面齁"},{"start":185.754,"end":202.967,"text":"他說他們提升資本市主力的強化計畫有三項四項一個是3億股的現金增資一個是私募普通股或特別股40億股還有這個私募國內殼轉換公司債30億元還有發行10年期累積次順位普通公司債50億元這個有包含在裡面嗎?有,他有提出來都有提出來那這個局長或是主委主委你認為這樣夠嗎?"},{"start":215.267,"end":220.499,"text":"主要我們還要評估他發債的可行性還有這些細節啦所以就是說認為這個50億的這一個"},{"start":223.065,"end":245.494,"text":"這個次稅未普通公司債可行性的問題嗎對對對我們還在評估這個部分這個是這個美邦人壽算上美邦人壽的嘛這個法案法收會有說出來了啦那5月16號給你們知道到現在還沒有整理出一個重點給這個因為今天其實大家都會問到啦那那個星光人壽勒星光人壽的部分"},{"start":249.474,"end":272.304,"text":"新光人壽他們也有提出來啦那我們也還在評估他的那個到底他能不能達到RBC的法定標準如果要達到這一個資本市主率的話我算了一下他們這一個5月24號董事會他的這個財務的這個改善計畫大概是會增加這個250億啦那這樣子能夠達到這個資本市主率嗎"},{"start":277.284,"end":289.946,"text":"有辦法嗎?就是我們要去看他的假設情境那他除了這個部分他還有一個還會再發債25億大概還有這個數字這是哪時候的事情?"},{"start":292.376,"end":313.936,"text":"應該會在下半年吧,下半年再加上那個債25億那這樣夠嗎?這275億這樣夠嗎?那現在就是我,它試算出來的東西我們再細部評估說到底有沒有辦法那你們心中應該有一個標準嗎?如果都達到了,都達到了這一個,比如說它真是275億的話我只問說那這樣有達到日本市值率的要求嗎?"},{"start":316.294,"end":338.421,"text":"報告委員我們還要再算一下因為上禮拜來我們有一些假設情境要跟他們再確認哪時候會算出來啊應該是會再請他們在這個部分再有一些補充過來啦大概有一個期限嘛一個月兩個月總是會有個期限嘛我對你們有要求你對他們有要求啊期限就出來了啊"},{"start":340.663,"end":341.724,"text":"主委有沒有一個時間啊?"},{"start":356.172,"end":356.432,"text":"再請教一下主委"},{"start":385.976,"end":406.981,"text":"這個星光星是星光人壽的唯一的股東那現在這個市場上有傳出來就是說有可能是個台興金會併這個星光金或是中信金要併這個星光金那請教一下如果這個上述有這個市場上面的這個傳言那會影響或是說會改善星光人壽未來的這個資本市儲率的達成嗎"},{"start":409.278,"end":426.808,"text":"合併是一個物理效應它沒辦法產生馬上的爭執因為它本來就是一個合併的主體當然剛才講說它的資本不足是它子公司不足當然剛才也提到了因為我們的金控基本上都百分之百持股母公司就是唯一的一人股東"},{"start":427.788,"end":451.139,"text":"所以這部分合併也會等於說任何一家金控合併這一家金控公司的百分之百持有的子公司未來根據金控法53條的義務所有的金控公司對子公司有增資要求都有法定籌資的義務我想這個部分應該會考慮剛剛委員提到的所有的這個都是傳聞而且他們各個公司也有出來表示意見我的意思是說"},{"start":453.246,"end":475.001,"text":"不論是這個臺信金或是中信金我在想我們現在標點還是在這個新光人壽因為這個2026年我們有一個保險業者接軌IFRS17的這個新的制度然後還有ICS2.0新一代的這個清償能力制度然後會造成這個售錢公司蠻大的一個資金的缺口那尤其對這個新光人壽來講"},{"start":475.962,"end":488.319,"text":"那有估算過啦如果在2025年之前呢這個在接軌之前呢他需要現金增至有1000多億那你如果沒有達到這一個明年沒有達到這1000多億的話他在2026年他其實是沒辦法接軌的欸"},{"start":492.193,"end":520.123,"text":"所以他是有很大的資金缺口報告委員剛剛您提到那個數字都是報紙寫的因為其實上剛剛講我們現在整個接軌資本新制度的話他涉及到我們提供了現在已經提供了三階段的過渡跟調適措施那其實上我們也都在試算而且這個東西最後我們是要2026年才接軌市場上有對這經驗有很多的傳言事實上都不是最後確定的數字那會比這個還高嗎"},{"start":522.415,"end":524.618,"text":"新光三商這兩家公司是不符現階段我們的RBC制度的"},{"start":541.024,"end":568.789,"text":"是阿是阿那請教齁這個之前我們的這個黃主委有對這一個新光能壽的這個董事長魏寶生有給他裁罰啦他現在好像是看在你的面子上他有放棄了這個行政書應該不是這是他們自己考慮的結果跟你沒有關係就對了跟你沒有關係不是因為說是因為你們這個之前有曾經有有這一個他當這個金融總會秘書長的時候你是副秘書長不是因為這層關係"},{"start":570.416,"end":590.655,"text":"當然不是,我想說這部分他們有自己的考量好,這個今天談ESG,那其實這個ESG是一個好的生意那有很多這個金融的產品也都是掛ESG,但是很多是掛羊頭賣狗肉那我看到說你們有這個ESG的指引是不是?這有確定了嗎?"},{"start":592.162,"end":601.37,"text":"我剛才跟其他委員報告過我最近幾天剛批的一個公文最近應該會發布是怎樣?你們有這個金融機構房票率參考指引嗎?"},{"start":602.725,"end":622.111,"text":"我們對於各種的不管是文字描述或是很多的認定我們都有寫更清楚的指引給大家參考這指引能不能給我們一份沒問題因為你簽過了嘛沒問題給我們一份好謝謝謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝李坤城委員的質詢接著我們請李燕秀委員質詢在武力法委員質詢之後我們休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"153373","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153373","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba6abe1261d663036d4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744ee2905264f656d115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:30:50 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10:42:15","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:30:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T10:42:15+08:00","duration":685,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時30分）謝謝主席，有請金管會主委、財政部部長、兆豐董事長、土銀董事長。"],["主席：有請彭主委、莊部長、雷董事長及謝董事長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：今天我們針對的是如何精進ESG制度的評鑑，落實到金融機構放款、貸款的管理工作，我們希望讓它更好。在ESG裡頭，E代表的是環境的保護，S是社會責任，G是公司的治理、管理，在此想先請教臺灣銀行董事長，針對前不久亞洲水泥在花蓮新城鄉的大火，這樣子的大火發生的時候，你們如何去處理？亞泥發生了這一些問題，你如何去監督這個企業的環保問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：我請呂董事長來說明好嗎？"],["主席：請呂董。"],["呂董事長桔誠：是不是請委員可以再指教這個問題，因為我正好在討論。"],["賴委員惠員：就是針對亞洲水泥前不久在花蓮發生的火警，你們是它最大的聯貸銀行，請問你怎麼樣來看這一個企業的環保議題？你後續有去關心嗎？然後你做了什麼樣的追蹤嗎？"],["呂董事長桔誠：針對這個個案後續的處理，我們可以事後提一個報告沒有問題，但是所有的貸後管理，特別是如果有發生這樣子的狀況，一定都會有所關注。"],["賴委員惠員：怎麼樣關注？"],["呂董事長桔誠：我想第一個要確認它是不是有造成多大的影響，當然這是媒體報導，但是這一個……"],["賴委員惠員：那你有沒有實際瞭解這個案子呢？"],["呂董事長桔誠：我個人沒有實際瞭解，對不起。"],["賴委員惠員：那你下面的人也沒有跟你報告？"],["呂董事長桔誠：沒有。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你也不管？"],["呂董事長桔誠：不是不管，因為我沒有看到這一則新聞。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有看到這一則新聞？"],["呂董事長桔誠：是。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你私下還會提供給我一份……"],["呂董事長桔誠：對，我請總經理把這部分整理一下，然後跟您做個報告。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝董事長。"],["呂董事長桔誠：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：本席所針對的是公股銀行怎麼樣去反應租賃公司借高利貸的社會責任的問題，在這裡我要請教，所有租賃公司最大的聯貸放款銀行就是土地銀行，我想請教土地銀行董事長，你看在這一段時間，其實這三個月以來，本席一直針對租賃公司的社會責任提出質詢，它不斷地製造太多的社會問題，不是銀行竟然可以做最大的高利貸放款，甚至超過二十二倍，在這種情況下，身為租賃公司最大的放款聯貸銀行，你怎麼樣去看這個問題呢？"],["謝董事長娟娟：報告委員，在上一次的會議裡頭我有跟委員報告，委員也有關心到這個議題，我首先要說明的是土地銀行貸放給融資公司，其實它大部分的資金都是放在太陽能跟綠色電廠設置所需要的資金。至於委員所關心的貸後管理的部分，事實上，發生了這件事情之後，我們也有找這三大租賃公司的高層，他們也很有誠意的到銀行來拜訪。"],["賴委員惠員：怎麼樣的誠意？你有逐筆檢查嗎？"],["謝董事長娟娟：他們親自來拜訪，然後他們有說明他們裡面的管理，我們也責成他們必須要做好所有的資金貸放。"],["賴委員惠員：責成？聽起來好像就是說……"],["謝董事長娟娟：他們也保證啦，他們也保證不會這樣做。"],["賴委員惠員：怎麼樣的保證？董事長，怎麼樣的保證？"],["謝董事長娟娟：我想大家都有共識，就是從公會、治理的部分來制定，大家有同樣的一個遊戲規則，他們一定會嚴守。"],["賴委員惠員：好，請你會後給我一份報告，好不好？"],["謝董事長娟娟：好，沒有問題。"],["賴委員惠員：顯然這樣子講起來還是非常的空，大家也聽不清楚，而且我的時間也有限。","接下來請問兆豐銀行董事長，有關公股銀行如何反應企業公司化管理的部分，台北天空塔遭到掏空，海外股權也全部出售了，有關這個過程，昨天最新的新聞報導表示，買方把中資摒除了。可是在這之前，信義區的台北天空塔在落成後將成為臺灣第二高樓，但是卻遭掏空10億，這前前後後，不曉得兆豐有沒有特別注意到這個案例呢？"],["雷董事長仲達：跟委員報告，這整個案件我們從頭到尾都有在關注，其實在去年5月我們就停止撥款，因為這個案子是一直在蓋，只是股東之間的一個紛爭，所以造成包括到底股權是在哪個地方、有沒有賣掉、有沒有質押等問題，甚至中資的問題，但是我們去年就已經掌握整個狀況，停止撥款了。"],["賴委員惠員：所以這些狀況都在你的掌握中？"],["雷董事長仲達：掌握之中。"],["賴委員惠員：直到最近，也就是說，在這個過程裡頭，一個就是假債權，然後變成真的股權，它在海外的一個控股公司，你們都有掌控？"],["雷董事長仲達：在掌控之中。"],["賴委員惠員：好，也請給我一份報告，好不好？"],["雷董事長仲達：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：接著我想請問部長。部長，前兆豐董事長蔡友才，他的掏空……"],["雷董事長仲達：他沒有掏空啦，那個是我們在紐約被裁罰的案子。"],["賴委員惠員：好，紐約被裁罰的案子。"],["雷董事長仲達：是。"],["賴委員惠員：所以跟蔡友才沒有關係嗎？"],["雷董事長仲達：現在我們也在追究責任啦，是不是有督導不周……"],["賴委員惠員：那為什麼會一審判了9個月咧？"],["雷董事長仲達：喔，那個當然就是法院……"],["賴委員惠員：董事長，我跟你講，沒有關係，這個我請問財政部莊部長，在兆豐前董事長蔡友才的這個案子裡頭，兆豐學到什麼樣的教訓？你有沒有特別去關懷這一個議題？你看，兆豐為了這個案子，裡裡外外付了多少的法律費用，然後我們提供了多少的擔保品給法院，這確實就是造成兆豐在社會上有一個非常非常大的負面，不知道部長怎麼看待這個事情？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，兆豐的這個案子是它在紐約的分行被美國當地的金融監理機關罰款，然後罰得非常的重，當然在國內金融業也造成了很大的一個衝擊，我覺得這個是一個教訓，就是委員剛才講的一個教訓，從這個經驗裡面，我們認為洗錢防制要非常的重視，因為國際間對這樣的作業都非常重視。另外，有關洗錢防制，尤其是在國外的分行，它要遵照當地的金融法規，要非常重視這個。第二個，必須要找第三方驗證公司來驗證我們做的是否足夠。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯、沒有錯，這就是我們在這個過程裡所學到的一個教訓。部長，我給你看一張名片，這是開發公司資深合夥人蔡永義的名片，這家開發公司是盛景開發公司，而蔡永義原本是兆豐的前總經理，他在發生這些事情之後，竟然還有辦法擔任資深合夥人，什麼叫資深合夥人？是不是就是借貸有功，所以未來就可以來做這樣的資深合夥人？所以我一直在講說，我們在這整個案子裡學到了什麼樣教訓？涉嫌淘空的邱冠勳在海外成立盛景公司，他邀請蔡永義來擔任盛景公司的資深合夥人，剛才兆豐的董事長跟我說這個不叫掏空案，不然什麼才叫掏空案？顯然對於這個案子，我想你也是深刻地去瞭解，輕輕地把它放下，這中間我們付出了這麼大的一個社會成本，我們學到什麼？中間有沒有背信？我們要不要查清楚呢？你看這一張名片，這個多諷刺啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：這樣子，對於蔡永義這個個人的情況，我們在會後再去做一個完整瞭解，是不是再跟委員做報告？"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我跟你報告，我們當官有名，大家都知道你是非常好的一個財政部部長，可是有沒有利？據說這個蔡永義目前坐的車子絕對是比你的還高級，每個月領的薪水也絕對比你多更多，甚至超級多，在這個過程裡頭，我們有沒有一套比較好的方式，可以來管理這些公股銀行的董事長、監察人、經理人的監督力道？我們可以不可以盤查後續任職單位是否跟公股銀行的借貸有什麼樣的關係？你不能說他發生事情退下來了以後，然後就這樣子不了了之。當然，我們不是共產國家，我們不會像大陸一樣，去把他之前的薪水都是追討出來，但是在這裡我要提醒我們的主委，這也是一門很重要的功課，我們希望能做好這樣一個約束管理，因為他們不是公務人員，我們只能用背信去約束他們，你看，出來每一件事情的紕漏都是這麼大，所以要請各位對於這個做好監督管理，我們希望有信心可以把它整頓好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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怎麼樣的一個保證呢"},{"start":280.444,"end":308.156,"text":"我想大家都有共識就是說從那個公會治理的部分來制定那大家有同樣的一個遊戲規則那他們一定會嚴守好我跟你講你會後給我一份報告好不好現在這樣子講起來還是非常的一個空那大家也聽不清楚那就是說其實我們的時間也有限來趙鳳營養董事長我想針對著公股銀行如何反映企業的公司化的一個管理"},{"start":310.052,"end":338.531,"text":"臺北天空塔遭到掏空了海外的股權也全部出售了這個過程裡頭昨天最新的新聞他說買方把中資併儲了可是在這之前的時候我們作為一個臺灣的第二高樓我們知道就是說在信義區裡頭這個掏空了10億錢錢厚厚不曉得兆豐有沒有特別去注意到"},{"start":340.673,"end":367.75,"text":"這一個案例呢跟委員報告這整個案件我們從頭到尾都有在關注其實在去年5月我們就停止撥款因為這個案子其實他是一直在蓋只是那個股東之間的一個紛爭所以造成一些就是有一點到底股權是在哪個地方有沒有賣掉有沒有質押這個問題甚至中資的問題但是我們去年就已經掌握整個狀況停止撥款了"},{"start":369.151,"end":369.271,"text":"財政部莊部長"},{"start":393.465,"end":417.918,"text":"我們前兆豐的一個董事長蔡友才蔡友才我想這個他的一個那個就是這個掏空那沒有掏空啦那個是他等於是我們在紐約被裁罰的案子對好紐約被裁罰的案子是所以跟蔡友才沒有關係嗎現在就當我們也在追究責任那為什麼會你審判了9個月勒"},{"start":420.739,"end":448.499,"text":"董事長我跟你講沒有關係這個我請問財政部部長就是說在趙鋒前董事長蔡友才的這個案子裡頭趙鋒學到什麼樣的一個教訓你有沒有特別去關懷這個議題呢你看趙鋒為了這個案子就是說我們里裡外外我們互了多少的一個法律的一個會用然後我們提供了多少的擔保品給"},{"start":451.041,"end":464.373,"text":"這個確實就是造成這個兆豐在這個社會上就是有一個非常非常大的一個負面那不知道部長怎麼看待這個事情是謝謝委員兆豐這個案子在紐約分行"},{"start":465.246,"end":478.581,"text":"被美國當地的金融監理機關罰款那罰了非常的重那當然在國內的金融業造成了也很大的一個衝擊那我覺得這個是一個教訓就是您委員講的一個教訓從這個經驗裡面我們認為"},{"start":480.763,"end":485.949,"text":"洗錢防治要非常重視因為國際間對這樣的一個作業都非常重要都非常重視另外洗錢防治我們在尤其在國外的分行他要遵照當地的金融法規要非常重視這個第二個必須要找第三方的驗證公司來驗證我們沒有錯沒有錯"},{"start":499.884,"end":519.267,"text":"這個是我們在這個過程裡頭學到的一個教訓我給你看到一張名片這個是一個開發公司盛景開發公司這個蔡永毅在這一個發生了這些事情的以後這個蔡永毅是我們兆豐的前總經理他竟然還有辦法什麼叫資深合夥人"},{"start":520.12,"end":520.14,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":550.701,"end":550.721,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":567.179,"end":580.333,"text":"你看這張名片這個多諷刺啊部長那這樣子喔對於蔡永毅這個個人的一個情況我們會在會後再完全再做一個瞭解是不是跟委員做報告部長我跟你報告齁這個"},{"start":582.535,"end":604.362,"text":"我們當官有名大家都知道你是非常好的一個財政部部長可是有沒有利你知道據說據說啦據說說這個蔡永毅目前坐的車子絕對是比你還高級每個月領的薪水絕對比你多還更多甚至"},{"start":606.983,"end":631.15,"text":"在這個過程裡頭我們有沒有一套比較好的方式可以來管理這些公股銀行的這個董事長、監察人、經理人的一個監督的力道我們可不可以盤查後續任職單位是否跟公股銀行的一個借貸有什麼樣的一個關係你不能就是說他發生事情他退下來了以後然後就是這樣子"},{"start":631.57,"end":631.59,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":653.32,"end":669.829,"text":"我們只能用背信去約束他們那你看出來每一件事情的皮肉都是這麼大所以就是要請各位就是對於這一個就是監督管理我們希望有信心可以把它就是整頓好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝賴惠員的質詢接著我們請李坤成委員質詢"},{"start":682.126,"end":683.553,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請彭主委"}]}},{"id":"153372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153372","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba10d7731df4222fe24622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e9137444e85e9b120da1bd45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:20:01 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10:30:42","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:20:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T10:30:42+08:00","duration":641,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時19分）主席、各位列席官員。主席，我想先請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長早。部長，今天跟明天就是最後的報稅日期，截至27日統計，有超過553萬件已經完成申報，但以去年總申報件數663萬件預估，還有超過110萬件沒有完成申報，部長有沒有掌握目前報稅的進度？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，到5月29號為止，已經申報的有631萬件，大概占了全數的95%，目前還沒有完成申報的是32萬戶，大概占5%。"],["顏委員寬恒：631萬件，5月29號？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：各地區第一線的稅務人員都還在加班，這段時間他們算是非常辛苦，請部長持續掌握進度。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我想目前用網路報稅的人也蠻多的，如果有到現場去的，我們第一線同仁都會盡力服務，讓報稅人能夠覺得更便捷，謝謝委員的關心。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝部長，部長請回。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：主席，再請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。本席上了你們的永續金融網瀏覽，在永續相關評鑑上主要分為兩大評鑑，第一種是永續金融評鑑。為提升金融業主動因應氣候變遷及ESG相關風險的能力，引導消費者、投資人及實體產業共同重視永續發展，金管會聯合研訓院、證基會、保發中心一起對銀行、證券商，還有保險公司進行永續金融評鑑，永續金融評鑑在架構上分為永續發展綜合指標與環境支柱、社會支柱及公司治理支柱，參考國際標準還有國內金融業發展的進程。因為去年是第一次評鑑，相信還有很多業者及民眾對於這項評鑑感到陌生，能不能請主委簡單介紹這項評鑑的內容，以及希望達成的目標？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我們已經有了交易所做的公司治理評鑑，其實成效蠻好的。而針對永續金融部分，我們委請三個單位做永續金融評鑑，初步第一年確實我們指定銀行、證券、保險等大概五十幾個單位接受評鑑，未來我們會持續強化評鑑指標對於市場的導引作用，特別是對金融機構。剛剛提的公司治理，對所有上市櫃公司都適用，但是永續金融則是專門針對金融業來做的。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，瞭解。第二種是公司治理評鑑。現行公司治理評鑑都是參考公司治理原則，分為四大構面，包括維護股東權益及平等對待股東、強化董事會結構與運作、提升資訊透明度、推動永續發展等。近年來公司治理評鑑持續增加「推動永續發展」構面指標內容及權重，為進一步鑑別上市櫃公司於ESG各面向的表現，證交所也已依「上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案」的規劃，研議以目前公司治理評鑑架構為基礎，參考相關國際標準，以及其他推動環境及社會面向的趨勢，逐步增加環境、社會構面指標及權重，預計115年轉型為「ESG評鑑」。ESG評鑑基於三方面的表現去評估企業的永續發展面向，不同的評鑑機構會出現不同的評分標準跟方法。評分標準依機構不同而有所差異，到現在沒有一套一致性的標準，所以我要請教金管會，企業只能藉由瞭解每項評比的重點，然後依照自家公司項目的不同、重點及特長，這樣子這種評比是不是就失去了可比性？因為沒有一致性的標準，所以大家都會選擇自己比較厲害的部分來進行評比。我要請教金管會，金管會什麼時候會制定一套屬於金管會自己的標準，提供給企業做參考跟落實？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果時間允許，我可以請交易所來跟委員簡明地說一下他們目前的現況。"],["簡總經理立忠：委員好，關於交易所這一套公司治理評鑑，剛剛委員有講我們把它逐步轉為ESG的評鑑，針對評鑑每年我們都會召開委員會，委員會裡面產官學都有，相關標準制定好了以後，我們會對外公布，公布以後我們還會開課程，也就是宣導會，在宣導會裡面會針對條文的解釋及實務案例怎麼去得分進行宣導，宣導完了以後，我們交給獨立客觀的基金會去做評比。在這個過程當中，公司如果回答以後覺得沒有得分的話，他們會自評，如果沒有得分的話，他們還可以打電話跟基金會討論他們為什麼沒有得分，所以我們的整個制度是蠻齊全的，就是說規定訂出來之後對外公告，然後有教育訓練，還會說明案例，而且在評比的時候，會讓公司先做自己的評比來對看看這樣評比的分數對不對。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以未來金管會不會制定一套標準，就像你剛剛所說的，一樣是請獨立客觀的基金會來做輔導，是不是這樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛也有跟其他委員報告過，現階段是由我們的周邊單位來辦理，以交易所為例，它已經辦了十年，其實對市場的影響已經看到了。至於未來要不要有由政府主辦的ESG評鑑，剛剛我們也稍微看了一下，世界各國現在大部分都是由民間團體來做這樣的評鑑，當然也有一些及由政府來做，只要對未來好，我們可以朝各種方向都來研議看看。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，我再請教，綠色金融產品有一項是永續連結貸款，永續連結貸款是一種跟借款人的永續發展目標相關聯的貸款產品，資金不受限制的永續連結貸款只需要金融機構與要借錢的企業達成共識，就可以自由的運用資金，金融機構也可以根據這段時間內衡量企業達成指標的成效來調整借貸的利率。我想要請教金管會，在借貸的過程當中，如何避免企業發生「漂綠」的現象？也就是它透過綠色公關和綠色行銷的手段，當一家公司或單位把資源跟預算投入在環保相關的形象公關活動，而不是把真正的資金投入到實際上需要的永續行動當中，這就是漂綠的行為。以臺灣的情況來講，目前各銀行的利率都不算高，要怎麼透過這些獎勵的減碼，其實可能也沒有辦法減太多，剛剛很多委員也是反對減碼，這樣子要如何使企業願意以永續連結貸款來進行借貸的誘因？誘因是什麼？還有其他方法嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想剛剛也有請各個行庫來說明，就是說現階段我們永續連結的貸款，當然我們希望這筆錢的運用是跟永續相關，所以我們才會給予貸放利率上面的優惠，這也是列為貸放契約的一部分。剛剛委員有指正怎麼樣防止名不符實這件事情，我想各個銀行都有它自己的管制機制，針對這部分，因為貸放本來就是很專業的問題，當然現階段我們還是以鼓勵為主，至於各個契約，各個銀行應該可以藉由自己的管控措施來達到這個目的。"],["顏委員寬恒：另外，各國因應氣候變遷，紛紛採取相關政策，設定淨零排碳的目標，預計在2050年之前實現，當然臺灣也不例外。我國在推動綠色金融方面也面臨到許多挑戰，包括溫室氣體盤查的資訊還不夠充足，綠色以及永續的概念未明確化，以及永續金融人才不足等問題，剛剛其他委員也分別都有提到，要如何持續推動綠色金融以及永續發展並與國際接軌，我們還有很長一段路要走，所以我們一定要給予企業最大的支持，一起努力好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會朝這個方向努力，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢，接著請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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、淨零排碳的目標,所以分辨採取相關政策設定淨零排碳目標,在2050年前實現。當然,臺灣也不例外,我國在推動綠色金融方面也面臨到許多挑戰,包括溫室氣體盤查的資訊還不夠充足,綠色以及永續的概念未明確化,"},{"start":605.968,"end":630.486,"text":"以及永續金融人才不足等問題剛剛其他委員也分別都有提到那要如何持續的推動綠色金融以及永續發展並與國際接軌的我們還有很長一段路要走那所以我們一定要給予企業一個最大的支持一起努力好不好這我們會朝這方向努力謝謝謝謝委員委員的質詢接著我們請賴會委員質詢"},{"start":641.527,"end":641.664,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"153371","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153371","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba54440efa755792974622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744609e1c80bea229035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:07:06 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10:19:52","影片長度":"00:12:46","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:07:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T10:19:52+08:00","duration":766,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時7分）謝謝主席，我先請財政部長。"],["主席：莊部長請。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，下面今天也有很多我們公股行庫的董事長和總經理，在今年的3月底，由國發會、經濟部，還有找了財政部，要求我們公股行庫要參與整個離岸風電3-1期的聯貸案。現在離岸風電當然現在是我們能源政策的一個主力，可是我們的公股行庫對於參與聯貸，因為對於未來離岸風電的前景有所疑慮，所以在3月底曾經邀集了八大行庫一起來談論，事實上就是請業者喝咖啡啦，希望他們能參與。我想瞭解一下，到目前為止，這個案子的進度如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關這個事情，我知道國發會，還有經濟部有邀請我們公股行庫一起去參與這樣的一個會談，其實第一個是讓大家瞭解到離岸風電的發展情形，因為在離岸風電的聯貸案……"],["王委員鴻薇：我要知道進度，對不起，因為我時間關係，我要知道到目前為止的進度如何。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前為止還是銀行在自行做評估啊。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以到目前為止，目前八大行庫還沒有決定要去參與離岸風電3-1期的聯貸案？"],["莊部長翠雲：就我所知，我並不清楚，可能要看看行庫的作業。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，時間暫停一下。到底財政部能不能確定，我要知道現在的進度，到底參與了還是沒有參與？還是正在評估中？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該是評估中。"],["王委員鴻薇：還正在評估中？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我就不花時間請行庫的董事長、總經理上來說明了。我覺得這件事情跟我們長期以來，包含我們今天的討論內容也是一樣，我們當然鼓勵我們的行庫、銀行能夠參與包含綠電，包含ESG這些相關的資金的融資，但是我覺得銀行的風險控管也非常重要，尤其在離岸風電3-1期，其實我也瞭解，為什麼我們的公股行庫對這個還裹足不前，當然因為現在包含離岸風電的價格實在太高了，他們現在開出一度電六塊錢，這個價格是連台積電都買不下手的，因為台積電說六塊錢他們是買不了的，所以如果連台積電都不能買，那未來它的買主在哪裡？所以它的財務報告要怎麼樣來做評估？所以我在這邊要特別講的是，新政府上臺以後，我要拜託的是，不要再像舊政府那個時候，已經即將卸任，但是對這麼重要一個聯貸案，找了這麼多的行庫，事實上就是給行庫施壓啊，所以我要講的就是，請尊重銀行它的風險評估權，好不好？所以我希望財政部在這個部分也能夠把關，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想銀行在貸款的時候，一定是要遵守五P的原則，包含風險的評估，也是委員所提到的，這個在做徵信貸款的時候，都是要評估的一個項目。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，時間暫停一下，我再請金管會的彭主委。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長跟主委，我想現在在兩部之間，市場上非常關心的就是我們當沖的稅率是不是要繼續調降？如果要調降的話，要調降多久？很難得，我在質詢這個問題的時候，大部分都是只有財政部或金管會單獨列席，現在你們兩大巨頭都在這裡，有關於當沖降稅的常態化，我想請問一下莊部長，現在財政部的態度是什麼？還是認為常態化不可行？還是說你們要有所讓步？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，您說的常態化，意思就是說不再……"],["王委員鴻薇：降了再降，降了再降，一直降！"],["莊部長翠雲：就是說在期限上，在適用的時間上，我想這個部分，對於有關租稅的優惠，它必須要有一個時限，而不可能是成為一個常態化的情形，這是納稅者權利保護法的一些規定，就是這樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，現在金管會對於當沖稅率的降稅又提出要再延長五年，請問財政部現在的態度是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於金管會的建議意見，他們其實在年初的時候就有到財政部，對於有關當沖降稅這個事情，社會各界都有不同的意見，有贊成的，也有質疑的，關於各界的意見我們都蒐集以後，我們對於有關質疑需要釐清的部分，也再請金管會就這個部分再做一些評估，以及給我們一個更詳細的資料。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長跟主委，我覺得這件事情，因為顯然財政部跟金管會各自站在自己部會不同的立場，到目前為止還沒有一個決斷。我先講一下我的態度，第一個，我的態度過去幾次在財委會上都講得非常清楚，我並不贊成當沖稅還要繼續的減半，而且要繼續延長五年，因為我覺得從2017年開始一再的延長，而當時所要達成的一些效果，事實上都已經看到了。我覺得不應該像吃嗎啡一樣，覺得要一吃再吃，這樣子反而對市場不健全，不然的話，你們就回去好好地討論，如果你覺得當沖的稅率就是應該減半，你就是永久性的減半，而不是一再的延長，我覺得這是破壞了整個稅制，這個稅制的穩定性是不足的，這是第一個。","第二個，因為年底即將到期，我也希望兩個部會能夠儘快地做決定，因為任何一個市場都是這樣的，它的不穩定因素越多，它的不穩定因素越久，對於市場至少在短期上，它的效應也是不夠好的，因為也許現在市場充滿一片的樂觀啊，認為金管會提出來，現在新政府應該不怕證券市場受到波動，應該就是可以得逞，可是我覺得不穩定的因素應該儘量的把它消去，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解，委員這個建議……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那請問一下，你們什麼時候會決定呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，金管會也在持續的蒐集資料，我們兩部會做一個充分的討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼時候可以決定嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：這個決定，我想我們會再做一個討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：6月底可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分因為也涉及到一些修法，如果是動的話，就會涉及到法律的修正，這個部分我想應該還要有一定的程序。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你到現在都不願意去承諾，我還是覺得你們能夠儘快地把它做一個了斷啦，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：時間暫停一下，部長先請回。","主委，今天談我們要怎麼導入ESG，我也看了你們的報告，其實金融機構在做ESG評鑑也非常賣力，不過在國內，甚至在國際間，對於ESG評鑑的準則，到目前為止還有很多討論，甚至也有很多人對於它的信度或者信任程度，其實也還存在很多驗證，比如Rate the Raters Report的調查顯示，國際上受訪者對於ESG評比的信任程度，事實上是下降的。相關的評比很多，但是到底這些評比可不可信，其實在國際上都還有爭議。","國際間對於ESG評比機構的監管，有的是用監管態度，譬如歐盟是直接用證券及市場管理局監管，但日本就不是用監管方式，而是由金融廳提出準則。請問主委，有關ESG評鑑，現在市場的評鑑很多，但是我們並沒有一個國家級的評鑑標準，未來有關ESG評鑑，金管會願意當扛霸子，就是願意把它放在金管會這邊，不管是提出準則也好，或是由你們來監管也好，金管會有這樣的準備嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，剛剛也跟各位委員報告過，現階段是先由交易所做公司治理評鑑，另外，現在研訓院也在做永續金融評鑑，我們是按部就班，當然未來假設這個政策要達成，我們要優化……"],["王委員鴻薇：這是未來一定會走的政策，這個毋庸置疑。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實金管會對於國際上制度的演變都持續關注，當然，只要有助於未來優化我們永續金融的發展及ESG的促進，我想剛剛委員提的很好，我們都會參酌各國的作法，再來看看接下來的下一步可以怎麼做。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得我這個可能是一個大哉問，因為國際間大家也是慢慢在摸索，有的國家、地區覺得要用比較強力的監管方式，以免它太過混亂；也有些國家覺得不要用監管方式，只要設立一些準則就好了，但是在臺灣，到目前為止，不管是行政院、環境部、經濟部或者金管會，到現在為止，大家好像都是各自做各自的，每個都覺得ESG好重要、好重要，評鑑確實很重要，但第一個問題，未來主管單位到底是誰？主管機關到底是誰？他也許用監管的，也許用比較鬆散方式，我覺得都應該要儘快做出定論。","另外一個部分，我覺得這並不是金管會的責任，但是我在這邊要提出來，因為現在整個市場、社會都覺得ESG很重要，所以已經出現很多詐騙集團了，有很多小資族希望趕上這班列車，然後他們花了大錢，可能幾萬、十萬、二十萬、三十萬，這對他們來講是大錢，希望可以拿到證照，結果最後一堆人被騙了，因為事實上這個機構也不是正當的機構，也沒有認證，他們花了大錢，後來發現這只是一個上課證明，根本不是任何證照，所以從高層來講，到底我們的主管機關是誰？評鑑制度可不可以信賴？下到坊間這些所謂的ESG課程，根本就是在開補習班；開補習班也就算了，最後還變成詐騙集團，所以我真的覺得，當政府一再宣傳很重視ESG制度的建立，那麼我們就要思考如何去協助等等，不要讓它變成是詐騙集團的工具，這一點非常重要。我們每一次的質詢都要留下紀錄，這個部分，包含我們立法委員，包含所有官員，都應該要避免這樣一個政策，在它還不是很穩定、還很年輕、還不成熟的時候，反而成為民間這些不肖業者的詐騙工具，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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莊部長請來 莊部長委員好好部長 下面今天也有很多我們公股行庫的董事長和總經理在今年的3月底由國發會、經濟部還有找了財政部要求我們公股行庫要參與我們整個的離岸風電三支一旗的連帶案"},{"start":26.991,"end":27.151,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":48.456,"end":48.696,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":67.731,"end":77.858,"text":"其實第一個是讓大家了解到離岸豐電的一個發展情形因為在離岸豐電的連帶案我要知道進度對不起因為我時間關係我要知道到目前為止進度如何目前為止還是銀行還是我們跟銀行在自行的一個在評估所以到目前為止就是我們目前八大行庫還沒有決定要去參與離岸豐電的三正一期的連帶案"},{"start":93.867,"end":109.972,"text":"就我所知我並不清楚我可能要看看行庫的作業對好時間暫停一下那麼到底我們財政部能不能確定我要知道現在的進度到底參與了還是沒有參與還是站在評估中"},{"start":111.682,"end":118.107,"text":"應該是評估中還正在評估中那我就不花時間請這個航庫的董事長總經理上來說明了我覺得這件事情跟我們其實長期以來包含我們今天的討論內容也是一樣我們當然鼓勵我們的航庫銀行能夠參與這個我們包含綠電包含ESG的相關的這些資金的融資但是呢"},{"start":138.584,"end":138.624,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":156.235,"end":160.518,"text":"他們現在開出說一度店6塊錢你這個價格是連台積電都買不下手的因為台積電說6塊錢他們是買不了的所以如果連台積電都不能買那未來他的買主在哪裡所以他的財務報告要怎麼樣來做評估所以我在這邊要特別講的是新政府上台以後"},{"start":178.368,"end":201.628,"text":"我要拜託的是不要再像舊政府那個時候已經即將卸任但是呢這麼重要一個連帶案找了這麼多的行庫事實上就是給行庫施壓呀所以我要講的就是請尊重銀行的他的一個風險的評估權好不好所以我希望財政部在這個部分也能夠把關可不可以"},{"start":202.66,"end":203.1,"text":"有請彭主委"},{"start":223.766,"end":248.017,"text":"委員好部長跟主委我想現在在兩部之間我們事實上非常關心的就是我們當沖的稅率是不是要繼續調降那麼要調降的話要調降多久那麼很難得我在執行這個問題的時候大部分財政部就金管會那現在你們兩大巨頭都在這裡"},{"start":249.281,"end":251.543,"text":"有關於當沖降稅的常態化我想請問一下我們的莊部長現在我們財政部的態度是什麼還是認為常態化不可行還是說你們要有所讓步委員您說的常態化意思就是說降了再降降了再降一直降就是說在期限上就是在適用的時間上我想這個部分對於有關諸會"},{"start":274.884,"end":276.005,"text":"現在金管會對於當沖稅率的降稅現在又提出要再延長5年"},{"start":294.361,"end":318.739,"text":"現在財政部的態度是什麼對於金管會的一個建議意見他們其實在年初的時候就有到財政部那對於有關當沖降稅這個事情社會各界都有不同的意見有贊成的也有質疑的那對於各界的意見我們都收集以後我們對於有關質疑需要釐清的部分也再請金管會這個部分再做一些評估以及給我們一個更詳細的一個資料"},{"start":320.961,"end":330.386,"text":"部長跟主委我覺得這件事情因為顯然財政部跟金管會各自站在自己部會不同的立場到目前為止還沒有一個決斷那麼我先講一下我的態度第一個我的態度過去幾次在我們的參會我講得非常清楚我並不贊成當沖稅還要繼續的減半而且要繼續延長五年"},{"start":347.614,"end":351.097,"text":"因為我覺得從2017年開始一再的延長而當時所要達成的一些效果事實上都已經看到了我覺得不應該像吃馬飛一樣覺得要一吃再吃這樣子反而對市場不健全"},{"start":363.388,"end":371.435,"text":"不然的話你們就回去好好的討論如果你覺得當初的稅率不應該就是應該減半你就是永久性的減半而不是一再的延長我覺得這是破壞了整個的這個稅制這個稅制的穩定性是不足的這是第一個第二個因為你們年底即將到期那我也希望兩個部會能夠盡快的做決定因為任何一個市場都是這樣的"},{"start":392.412,"end":418.662,"text":"他的不穩定因素越多他的不穩定因素越久對於市場至少在短期上他的效應也是不夠好的因為也許現在市場充滿一片的樂觀因為認為今晚會提出來那麼現在新政府應該不怕這個這個證券市場受到波動應該就是可以得逞可是我覺得不穩定的因素應該盡量的把它消去可不可以"},{"start":419.774,"end":420.595,"text":"六月底可不可以?"},{"start":441.408,"end":457.619,"text":"這個部分因為也涉及到一些修法如果是動的話就要涉及到法律的一些修正這個部分我想應該還要一定的程序好 所以到現在都不願意去承諾我還是覺得你們能夠盡快的把它做一個了斷好不好時間暫停一下 請部長先請回好 那個 主委"},{"start":470,"end":486.774,"text":"我們現在就是今天談那個我們要怎麼樣導入ESG那我也看了你們的報告那所以呢其實我們金融機構在做這個ESG的評鑑也非常的賣力不過呢事實上在國內甚至在國際間對於ESG評鑑的準則"},{"start":489.756,"end":505.093,"text":"到目前為止還有很多的討論而且甚至呢也有很多人對於他的這個信度或者信任程度其實也還帶很多的驗證那比如說這個是國際上的The Reuters Report"},{"start":506.212,"end":523.361,"text":"在國際上受訪者對ESG評比的信任程度事實上是下降的那因為其實這個評比很多但是呢到底這些評比可不可信其實在國際上都有爭議好我們現在看到就是說在這個國際間ESG的評比機構的監管"},{"start":526.903,"end":540.338,"text":"有的是用監管的態度比如說歐盟他直接用證券及市場管理局來做監管可是像日本他們並不做用監管的方式他只是由金融提出準則那我想請問一下我們ESG評鑑"},{"start":544.755,"end":572.322,"text":"現在市場的評鑑也很多但是呢我們也沒有什麼國家級的一個評鑑的標準那我想請問一下主委那麼未來ESG的評鑑我們金管會願意當扛把子嗎就是願意把它放在金管會這邊不管是提出準則也好或者是你們來做監管也好金管會有這樣的準備嗎"},{"start":573.919,"end":593.685,"text":"我想報告委員我們現階段先是由剛剛跟各位報告交易所做公司治理評鑑另外的話就現在那個研訓院他們在做那個永續金融評鑑我們是按部就班那當然就是未來假設這個政策是一個要達成我們要優化這個政策的話未來是一定會走這個政策的"},{"start":595.026,"end":611.998,"text":"我們其實儘管會對於國際上的制度的演變我們都持續的關注當然只要有助於未來優化我們永續金融的發展以及未來ESG的這樣的促進我想剛剛委員提到很好我們會去參酌各國的做法再來看看我們接下來下一步可以怎麼來做"},{"start":613.018,"end":613.158,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":631.098,"end":646.749,"text":"但是在台灣我真的目前為止不管從行政院或者環境部或者經濟部或者是市經管會我到現在為止大家都是在各自做各自的每個都覺得說ESG好重要、ESG好重要評鑑確實很重要"},{"start":648.931,"end":657.041,"text":"所以第一個就是未來的主管單位到底是誰主管機關到底是誰他也許用監管的他也許是用比較鬆散的我覺得這個應該也是盡快的做定論那另外一個部分我覺得這也並不是今晚會的責任但是我在這邊要提出來"},{"start":667.054,"end":673.198,"text":"就是因為現在整個市場社會都覺得ESG很重要現在已經出現很多詐騙集團了啦我們有很多的小資族因為他希望趕上這班列車然後他們花了大錢對他們來講可能幾萬十萬二十萬三十萬對他們來講是大錢然後他們認為說我要希望拿到證照結果最後一堆人被騙了因為"},{"start":692.37,"end":717.19,"text":"身上這個機構也不是一個正當的機構也沒有認證的機構他拿後來他花了大錢後來發現他只是一個上課證明根本不是任何的證照所以從高層的就是我們到底我們主管機關是誰我們評鑑制度可不可以信賴到下面我們很多的坊間這些所謂根本就在開補習班你開補習班就算了最後還變成詐騙集團"},{"start":718.911,"end":734.353,"text":"所以我真的覺得當我們政府一再的宣傳我們很重視ESG的這個制度的建立我們要怎麼樣的去協助等等之類的但是呢不要變成詐騙集團的工具這一點非常的重要啦"},{"start":734.793,"end":736.154,"text":"謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢 接著我們請顏寬文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba01a12ab4312e37894622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e9137447b740a4ce868cf5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:55:32 - 10:06:58","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:55:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T10:06:58+08:00","duration":686,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時55分）謝謝主席。有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：彭主委好。我今天之所以排這個主題，剛剛賴委員已經講很清楚了，一來作為放貸標準；二來也可以讓投資人有所依據，畢竟現在投資商品越來越多，不論是ETF，或者是與綠色債券相關的可能性都有。就ETF的標準來說，剛剛你有提到一個部分，也就是還是站在鼓勵跟指引的態度。但本席想要說的是，如果只是鼓勵跟指引，若企業以消極的態度去面對的話，那麼ESG的標準是不是能夠形成公信與具體的指標，恐將令人擔憂！我看到臺灣指數公司確實有針對這些公司進行永續的評鑑，但評鑑過程當中屢屢引起一些爭議，爭議在哪裡？爭議在個別公司在評鑑上有的是優等生，有的是特優生，卻有違反社會責任或違反公司治理的情況，然而在報告書中無法看到。","我請教你一下，根據許多民間團體，像獨董協會的調查顯示，到目前為止，經營階層當中對ESG的認知仍相當缺乏，重視程度有待加強，甚至對相關問題不甚瞭解。對於這種情況我想請問主委，是不是可以比照薪酬或審計委員會，在規範上稍微強制一點，譬如成立永續發展委員會，不曉得主委看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在各個公司的審計委員會是強制要設，至於永續委員會則由各公司決定，和薪酬一樣有些有強制力，我們會持續評估如何強化公司治理，像審計委員會的設置及加重其權責，這是我們從實務上看到的。如同所委員提到，未來永續會是一個長遠要落實的政策，那麼我們會請相關單位來評估可行性。"],["郭委員國文：稍微push一下，好不好？更稍微強制一下……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個可以來評估。"],["郭委員國文：這樣效果才會出來。你想一想，所有資訊的揭露，如臺灣指數公司所評鑑的內容也是事後指標，並無法驗證其真實性。如果永續報告書這麼重要，如同財報地位的話，那麼財報還有會計師做認證，請問永續報告書誰來認證？對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們……"],["郭委員國文：簡單講，有沒有第三方的可能性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有請交易所跟櫃買做審閱，這點剛剛有跟委員報告過。我們剛剛提到在做永續報告時，一開始我們是鼓勵，所以儘量請他們先做獨立報告，且這部分我們會不斷優化。"],["郭委員國文：在審閱過程當中，假設報告書內容有虛偽不實或有隱匿的狀況，其實是違反證交法第三十六條第四項，公司公開發行公司年報應記載事項準則，所以這有民刑事問題！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可不可以請副局長回答一下？"],["高副局長晶萍：報告委員，因為永續報告書其實是交易所的規定，所以違反的話是有與交易所相關的違約金處分。只是永續報告書有一些揭露內容現在已放到年報裡面，即股東會的年報。股東會年報如記載有虛偽不實，就會違反證交法……"],["郭委員國文：要放到年報以後才算符合法令……"],["高副局長晶萍：有重複性的揭露項目放在年報裡面，如此就會link到證交法的刑事責任……"],["郭委員國文：把它年報化就是了？所以必須強制要求其真實性，對不對？","另外一個牽扯到的就是後續的標準問題了。我舉一個例子，有關標準部分，在永續金融的評鑑當中對於水泥碳排，一年的排放強度是0.9公噸，可是就法規來說，排放的強度是0.821公噸。我請問一下，ESG要比照哪個標準？是比照法規，還是比照我們的永續評鑑？標準不一，不一致啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們是用評鑑指標……"],["郭委員國文：對，是用評鑑指標，但法規不一樣啊！現在標準不一樣，請問要怎麼處理？我不是把所有的loading都放在你身上，所以是不是可以找國發會做平臺，把環境部找來，把經濟部找來，把相關的部會找來，大家來談一談到底官方真正的標準是什麼？如果沒有標準的話，就很難指標化；你沒有指標化，那麼透明化也沒有意義，對不對？所以該從根本做起的是這個！主委，請你費心一下。","另外，我看到金管會說今年要提出金融機構防漂綠的參考指引？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["郭委員國文：主委，這部分你的基本態度是什麼？什麼時候要做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該最近就會發布原則了！應該最近、馬上就會發布原則！"],["郭委員國文：最近？最近是第二季以前嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這公文我記得我已經簽了。"],["郭委員國文：已經簽了？所以這一、兩個月就會出來了？類似的指標是不是會擴大到所有有永續報告書的這些公司，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們希望在未來只要是公開揭露的文件，能夠非常詳實地按照我們剛才提到的標準來做，不要有比較誇大的部分。"],["郭委員國文：那就等待你這個指引的內容。我還要請教主委有關公司治理，永續報告書當中的公司治理當然就是以本來的主體公司為主，但在主體公司當中有一部分的取處，也就是成立了子公司之後，好像子公司就獨立化了。子公司獨立化後只要經過一次取處就到外面了，變成外部交易，隨便它取處。如果是內部交易還有一些規範，但外部沒有！明明這原來是母公司的資產去成立的子公司，結果成立子公司以後就不管它了！如果只成立一家子公司的話還好，如果成立了一、二十家，不就是一種變相的掏空嗎？且變相地違反內部內稽、內控的治理的範圍嗎？就這部分的現象不知道主委的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，對於這案子，在一些案例發生以後，其實我們對於……"],["郭委員國文：我不是跟你談一個個案而已，我是從個案看到通案！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們從這個可以看到現在的規定只及於母公司本身，至於實質作業上，交易所會針對子公司一起做考量。不過我們也在研議要不要修證交法，把子公司整個納進來，這點我們正在研議中。"],["郭委員國文：研議把子公司納入資產取處的範圍！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：納入取處範圍中，才不會有變相掏空的嫌疑。同樣的道理，資產取處會影響到內稽、內控，在這種情況下是不是有可能先把這些子公司納入永續報告書的範圍？簡單講，就是把ESG家族化。既然公司可以集團化，為什麼不要求ESG家族化的可能性呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在金融機構已經把所有子公司納入，但其他上市櫃公司還沒，未來永續報告……"],["郭委員國文：金融機構有，因為公股銀行就成立了ESG大聯盟，所以基本上應該複製或擴大！在複製擴大的情況底下，簡單講就是一個家族化的概念。如果有集團式的公司，那麼是不是可以用這種方式把它集團化、家族化？讓ESG不再是單純的母公司的事，而是集團化的事情？用以大帶小的方式來建構ESG的標準跟環境？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是一個目標，因為上市櫃公司所牽涉的範圍非常複雜，不像金融業比較單純，假設金融業實施，它有這個經驗，我想我們再來持續優化這整個，比如說永續報告書的質跟量，這部分我們當然可以在未來優化的過程當中考慮到這個部分。"],["郭委員國文：我想可以啦，主委，你如果從資本額開始引進，或者用持股比例的話，只要有一個客觀標準，慢慢擴展，其實這不是不無可能，主委，這個部分請你費心一下，花點時間來跟本席說明一下。","最後，本席想要請教你一件事情，剛剛有幾位委員有關心到最近大家在討論的新新併啦，或者是要不要跟中信併的部分，你剛才有提到，就個案的部分，你好像傾向不評論嘛，可是就政策上，您的態度是怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：按照金控法第十八條的規定，我們本來就有一個金控整併的條文啦，這個本來在當初制度設計時就已經考慮到，任何一個金融機構或金融相關事業本來就有入場、退場的規定，我們尊重市場的機制。當然我剛才講，因為金控的規模都比較大，這還有牽涉到公平會的職權，這部分其實我們在還沒有收到任何正式的文件之前，站在主管機關的立場，我們真的不方便評論。"],["郭委員國文：這是就個案的部分，就法令上的部分，也有它的辦法，但是就您個人的部分，關於你的政策態度，我想請教你，你對金金併部分的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金金併我們已經有成功的案例了。"],["郭委員國文：對，但你的態度呢？推不推？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想應該是講對市場……"],["郭委員國文：鼓不鼓勵嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個要看個案，要看個案。"],["郭委員國文：看個案？還是看個案，你沒有政策，你只有個案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為就等於說，我們只要對市場的競爭力，跟消費者……"],["郭委員國文：你不覺得臺灣的銀行太多嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：銀行太多，其實我們可以透過金控的整併……"],["郭委員國文：你不覺得需要整出一個亞洲級的，然後來打亞洲盃嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然是一個……"],["郭委員國文：或世界盃？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然是一個我們可以想像的目標，但是實際上，我們有很多的條件必須滿足啦。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，但是規模至少是一個基本的條件嘛，我們希望看到主委的基本政策態度啦，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的質詢。","下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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國發會做一個平台把環境部找來,把經濟部找來,相關的部會找來我們來談一談,到底官方的真正的標準是什麼你如果沒有一個標準的話"},{"start":331.886,"end":333.987,"text":"我們現在是不是上次應該最近就會發布那個原則了對"},{"start":360.72,"end":361.56,"text":"指標會擴大所有到永續報告書的公司嗎?"},{"start":383.919,"end":384.459,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":401.713,"end":429.754,"text":"就是有關於這個公司治理的部分永續報告書當中的公司治理當然就是以你本來的這個主體公司為主但是你的主體公司當中呢你有一部分的這個取儲啊成立了子公司之後好像子公司就獨立化了可是子公司獨立化他只要經過一次取儲他就到外面就變成一個那個整個外部的交易隨便他取儲啦主委"},{"start":430.905,"end":455.675,"text":"你如果內部交你還有一些規範喔那外部沒有喔可是明明這是原來那個母公司的一個資產那你成立子公司成立子公司以後你就不管他了可是他成立子公司如果成立一家還好他如果成立了一二十家那不是變相的一種掏空嗎變相的違反你的內部的內積內空的一個治理的範圍嗎對這部分的現象我不需要主委你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":456.295,"end":481.611,"text":"報告委員,我想對於這個案子,我們有一些案例發生以後呢,其實我們對於我不是跟你談一個個案而已喔,我是從個案看到通案喔就是因為我們從這個看到的就是說,我們現在的規定只給予母公司本身但我們現在實質在作業上,交易所這邊會針對這個子公司一起來做一個考量只是說,我們現在也在研議說要不要修我們的政交法,把子公司整個納進來,我們正在研議中"},{"start":483.052,"end":509.09,"text":"研議把子公司納入整個資產取儲的一個範圍納入這個取儲範圍當中才不會有變相掏空的一個嫌疑嘛那同樣的道理啊你在資產取儲的部分會影響到內積內空的情況底下那是不是有可能先行把這些子公司的部分呢把它納入啊這一個永續報告書的範圍也就是簡單的講呢就是把這個ESG的部分把它家族化"},{"start":510.47,"end":535.963,"text":"他既然公司可以集團化了那你為什麼不要求ESG把它家族化的可能性呢我們現在是不是那個金融機構已經把所有子公司納入但其他上市櫃公司我們是不是還沒嘛對我們反正這個未來永續報告金融機構有因為我們金融機構公股銀行就成立一個ESG大聯盟啊那我是說你基本上你應該複製或者是擴大嘛"},{"start":536.623,"end":553.946,"text":"副職擴大的情況底下簡單的講就是一個家族化的概念那你如果說有集團式的公司的話你是不是可以用這種方式把集團化把它家族化把ESG不是單純的一個母公司的事情而是集團化的事情來以大小的方式來建構這個ESG的標準跟環境"},{"start":555.651,"end":570.98,"text":"這是一個目標因為我們商會公司其實牽涉到範圍非常複雜不像金融業比較單純假設金融業實施他有這個經驗我想我們在持續優化這整個比如說永續報告書的值跟量我們這部分我們當然可以來"},{"start":572.04,"end":575.381,"text":"主委請你這個部分的會心一下花點時間來跟本席說明一下最後本席想請教你一件事情剛剛有幾位委員有關心到最近大家討論的是個"},{"start":594.182,"end":604.077,"text":"新興病或中性病的部分你剛才提到就個案的部分你好像傾向不評論可是就政策上您的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":605.522,"end":627.541,"text":"按照我們金控法第18條我們本來就有一個金控整併的條文這個本來就當初在制度設計就已經考慮到任何一個金融機構或金融相關事業本來就有入場退場的規定那我們尊重市場的機制當然我跟你講因為金控的規模都比較大這個還有現在公平會的職權這部分其實我們在還沒有收到任何正式的文件之前我們真的"},{"start":628.341,"end":628.942,"text":"主管金融事務部長"},{"start":640.745,"end":647.471,"text":"推不推?鼓不鼓勵嘛?還是看個案?你沒有政策,你只有個案?你不覺得台灣的銀行太多嗎?你不覺得需要整州一個亞洲級的,然後來打亞洲盃嗎?"},{"start":662.552,"end":681.787,"text":"這當然是一個我們可以想像的目標但是其實上我們有很多的條件必須滿足啦對啊但是規模至少是一個基本的條件嘛我很希望看到主委的基本的政策態度啦謝謝主委謝謝委員的指教謝謝謝謝郭國文的質詢下一位請王宏偉委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaa6532beafb738e8f4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e913744be25a03cfd7880e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:40:52 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09:55:24","影片長度":"00:14:32","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:40:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T09:55:24+08:00","duration":872,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":193,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時40分）主席以及各位先進，有請金管會彭主委以及證交所簡總經理。"],["主席：有請彭主委、簡總。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。最近這一陣子立法院推動國會改革五法跑出來一個王義川事件，王義川不是路人甲、路人乙，他是執政黨民進黨的政策會執行長，他在節目裡面公開講幾月幾號來的人和5月19日、太陽花的人是不一樣的，這就牽涉到手機IP定位的問題。根據個資法，個資法第二條第一款規定得很清楚，手機的定位資訊屬於個資，我這張圖片裡面有一台中華電信的車，它5月17日就開進來了，5月21日也進來，5月24日也進來，5月28日也進來，每天都進來，就在我們青島會館的對面，拍得很方便，我們就拍了、看到了。","昨天在立法院詢答的時候，國安局撇得清清的，它都沒有介入，內政部說它都不知道，法務部說要查辦了，問題是民進黨的公職人員在電視臺上講了，這個資料是中華電信提供的。我們就要問了，現在已經鬧得沸沸揚揚，媒體吵了幾天，這麼大的事情，請問中華電信有沒有針對這件事情發布重訊？有沒有？沒有啊！那你做什麼的？主委，盯一下交易所，可不可以馬上叫它發？簡總經理，可以嗎？"],["簡總經理立忠：跟委員報告，我們的重訊一定是發生這個事件對公司……"],["賴委員士葆：已經發生了，它已經發生了！它把個資洩漏給民進黨的政策會執行長，已經發生了、已經發生了，這難道不是很大的事情嗎？這是醜聞，這等於是臺灣版的水門事件！"],["簡總經理立忠：向委員說明，上市公司……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要跟我講一堆啦！我的時間有限，你就告訴我，這個事件它該不該發重訊，請問你該不該發？"],["簡總經理立忠：委員，我覺得應該是要由管理相關法規的部門確定它違反規定了，確定違反規定……"],["賴委員士葆：法務部正在偵查這個事情，這個事情還不嚴重啊？就是查中華電信。"],["簡總經理立忠：現在沒有確定它有沒有違反。"],["賴委員士葆：我昨天上節目，還有一個民進黨公職人員把中中華電信拿出來，就是中華電信給的資料，我親自看到他做了一個手板，中華電信給的這些資料都可以分析到IP，每一個人怎麼樣，男的、女的，因為你的手機就有IP，這是中華電信給的，司法單位已經在查了，它不應該發布重訊嗎？主委，你說一下，怎麼你們的人都沒有肩膀啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是不是符合現行規定發布重訊的標準，交易所或是副局長可不可以說明一下現在發重訊的標準是什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：快一點！我的時間有限。"],["高副局長晶萍：原則上對上市櫃公司，最近有新聞媒體報導，我們是不是請他們做澄清……"],["賴委員士葆：新聞每天都在報，你們沒有看喔！"],["高副局長晶萍：另外一個，委員有提到它是不是符合重訊標準，交易所應該會請這兩家公司做說明，然後評估是不是要依照規定發重訊。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你們不敢要求他們發喔！這會影響到股價、影響到股東權益喔！大家原來發現說，我是中華電信的，原來我的個資毫無保護啊，我的個資隨時都被洩漏啊，不敢買啊！這會影響到交易，怎麼會沒有呢？這麼大的事情，中華電信是怎麼樣？財大氣粗喔！新聞已經上了幾天了，今天平面媒體還用這麼大的版面在做這個題目，它對外也沒有發新聞稿，在這裡已經雞飛狗跳了，昨天國安局、內政部、法務部相關的首長都講話了，中華電信愛理不理，ESG可以做這麼差喔？主委，你們要不要處理一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們來釐清一下，是不是符合我們要發重訊的規範，我們請交易所儘速釐清一下。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以進行？今天可以嗎？今天馬上打電話處理，好不好？"],["簡總經理立忠：委員，先請中華電信跟我們說明這是不是符合他們處理個資的程序……"],["賴委員士葆：今天可以請他們說明吧？"],["簡總經理立忠：我們會先瞭解……"],["賴委員士葆：好歹中華電信要發個新聞稿吧！人家都點名中華電信，我在這裡點名中華電信，它可以不發新聞稿嗎？昨天跟我一起上節目的民進黨公職人員拿板子給我看了，中華電信就是這樣！男的都有什麼、女的有什麼等等，像這樣的東西，就代表中華電信洩漏個資啊！這是違反個資法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對這個議題，我們現在會請交易所儘速跟他們釐清，這個是不是……"],["賴委員士葆：好不好？今天處理嘛，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想儘速來釐清啦，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：最少要求它因應這件事情發新聞稿，到底王義川是說真的還是說假的，是亂講一通，還是真的中華電信犯法、洩漏個資，有多少客戶？幾百萬、千萬個個資？講清楚啊！你今天處理可以吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會請交易所儘速處理，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：好。我再請教，今天談ESG，主席安排這個題目談得很好，時間請暫停一下，請8家的官股董事一起上來，好不好？還有財政部長、董事長，時間稍微停一下。"],["主席：有請公股銀行8位董事長。"],["賴委員士葆：我看到今天的題目，我們的主席用心良苦啊！ESG隱含有這個意思，ESG做得好，貸款條件應該會好一點，是這個意思吧！就是有這個味道。請問8家董事長，你們的放款條件有沒有針對ESG排行前面幾家的客戶給它特別優惠，比如說利率降個半碼，有沒有？有的請舉手？有沒有舉手的嗎？8家都有喔！減半碼的請舉手？部長，我要聽他們說，或者是……"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，是不是讓我們公股銀行……"],["賴委員士葆：請雷董事長來代表，好不好？你是銀行公會理事長。"],["雷董事長仲達：沒有減那麼多啦！大概兩、三個基本點，即0.03%。"],["賴委員士葆：萬分之三，是不是？兩、三個基本點……"],["雷董事長仲達：0.03%。"],["賴委員士葆：就是萬分之三嘛？"],["雷董事長仲達：對、對！"],["賴委員士葆：是千分之三，還是萬分之三？"],["雷董事長仲達：對，萬分之三，沒錯。"],["賴委員士葆：千分之三？"],["雷董事長仲達：萬分之三。"],["賴委員士葆：0.003。"],["雷董事長仲達：對！"],["賴委員士葆：很少欸。"],["雷董事長仲達：是0.03啦。"],["賴委員士葆：所以這樣不高嘛！請主委一起來，好不好？8家董事長可以請回。8家董事長告訴我們跟ESG都有掛勾，但是僅一點點啦，主委，我就是要告訴你，還有其他的董事長聽好，你們ESG發的ETF有9檔，對吧？確定一下，沒關係。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們確認一下。"],["賴委員士葆：不熱啊！不熱啊！沒有incentive，主席這個題目排得好，要incentive，只減萬分之三這麼少，毫無incentive啊！可不可以請部長incentive double一下啊？對不對？好歹也要到千分之一吧，萬分之二、萬分之三，太少啦！難怪人家不理啊！做得再好，沒用啊！部長，你同意吧？可不可以再好一點？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，銀行本身的經營也是很重要的，相關經營的策略，我們應該要重視。"],["賴委員士葆：政府的政策也很重要啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：要尊重公司治理，至於對於ESG因子放到我們的貸款客戶裡面，進行相關的審核，我覺得放進去是好的，至於在利率上的一些調整，我們還是要尊重公司治理。"],["賴委員士葆：好，請兩位都聽好喔。對土銀要誇獎一下，因為ESG談到減碳的問題，它投入碳權的市場，在南港分行有一個高效率冰水主機計畫，預估10年減少110萬公噸的碳排，其他公股要不要比照？請舉手一下，好不好？要不要比照？比照一下好不好？其他公股銀行董事長，土銀做得不錯啊！這個要表揚土銀，雷董事長要舉手嗎？"],["雷董事長仲達：是冷氣的，還是……"],["賴委員士葆：不一定冷氣啦，就是減碳的活動，你們……"],["雷董事長仲達：我們來研議，好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：對啦，大家一起來努力，好不好？減碳很重要啦！一起來減碳。","我最後一個小題目，兩位長官都聽好，都有關係。請問部長知道冷錢包嗎？部長知不知道冷錢包？"],["莊部長翠雲：我還沒聽過。"],["賴委員士葆：不知道？當然有，冷錢包，就有熱錢包啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊。"],["賴委員士葆：熱錢包就是我的pocket、我的purse。冷錢包是什麼？虛擬資產的。主委，請你解釋一下，什麼叫冷錢包？"],["彭主任委員金隆：據我所知，冷錢包就是我們現在虛擬資產上面，我們可以……"],["賴委員士葆：大聲一點，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是可以接收虛擬資產的帳戶。"],["賴委員士葆：虛擬資產加起來就是冷錢包，在5月17號你們有公布一個VASP的作業系統，就是針對冷錢包類似管理的一個辦法，薩爾瓦多都把虛擬貨幣當國幣，虛擬貨幣如果帶進來，可以放在USB裡面，任何的形式一點點、一點點，你根本查都查不到，變成一個洗錢的工具。現在美國捐給我們全臺灣第一隻的電子產品偵測犬，能夠嗅出冷錢包，部長知道這件事嗎？莊部長知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，知道。"],["賴委員士葆：他送給我們一隻，這個當然不是送給你，是送給警政署的。關務署等一下可以講話，我們有沒有這一隻犬？"],["彭署長英偉：我們現在是沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，要不要買？這個走私、洗錢的……"],["彭署長英偉：我們有犬訓中心，我們有犬隻的來源，我們會自己訓練。"],["賴委員士葆：你們的犬沒辦法嗅到這個，這個是很unique。主委，你覺得我們需不需要引進這樣一隻能嗅到冷錢包的犬，要不要？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們站在制度的建立，任何有助於防範犯罪、健全市場，我們都可以來考慮。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我再跟你提醒啦！即使是海關，特別是金管會，你管的虛擬貨幣最怕的是洗錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：怕洗錢，這個就很容易洗錢，一個小小的USB，你怎麼知道是那個呢？不可能全身搜，USB就是冷錢包，有這樣的犬，有沒有送我們一隻？部長，去打聽一下，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的提示，我們再去進一步地瞭解，看看有沒有相關的法規來做。"],["賴委員士葆：儘快喔！你跟警政署聯絡一下、問一下這種偵測犬，或者跟美國要一隻給你們海關用？不然就去買啊！我們又不是沒有錢，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們先去瞭解，然後跟相關機關聯繫看看用怎麼樣的方式來做。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。"],["主席（賴委員士葆代）：下一位我們請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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有的舉手沒有舉手的嗎1、1、2、3、4、5、6、7 少一家 八家都有齁減半碼的舉手"},{"start":492.153,"end":514.329,"text":"來來來 部長 聽說 或者是 雷董事長 要代表了好不好 理事長來報告委員喔 沒有講那麼多啦 大概兩三個基本點啦兩三個基本點 0.03%萬分之三 萬分之三是吧 兩三個基本點 0.03%就是萬分之三嘛 千分之三萬分之三"},{"start":518.44,"end":530.009,"text":"對,萬分之三沒錯千分之三萬分之三零點零零三對很久了零點零三啦零點零三來,主委啊,一起來好不好,主委主委一起來那個,巴家董事長可以請回了齁巴家董事長告訴我們都有跟ESG有掛鉤但是一點點啦齁"},{"start":545.152,"end":567.569,"text":"這個就是 主委 我就告訴你 還有幾位董事長聽我好了你們ESG發的ETF有9檔了 對吧確定一下沒關係不熱啦 不熱啦 沒有incentive啦主席這個題目排得好 要incentive啦incentive 萬分之二 萬分之三 要一件"},{"start":570.703,"end":586.184,"text":"毫無隱身體吧 主委啊可不可以請問部長啊隱身體double一下啊是不是 最少好歹到千分之一吧萬分之二、萬分之三 太少了難怪人家不理啊做得再好沒用啊"},{"start":588.627,"end":590.229,"text":"政府政策很重要"},{"start":603.761,"end":608.603,"text":"好,同時兩位都聽好啊土銀啊,要給它額漏了因為ESG談到一個減碳的問題它投入碳權的市場"},{"start":630.672,"end":647.572,"text":"瀾桿副部長有一個高效率的冰水主機計劃預估10年減少110萬公噸的攤牌其他公股要不要比照啊 要舉手一下好不好 要不要比照比照一下好不好 其他公股營養董事長土雲做得不錯喔 這個表揚土雲雷董事長被舉手了"},{"start":654.264,"end":654.765,"text":"請問部長你是要冷錢包嗎?"},{"start":673.291,"end":673.391,"text":"冷錢包是虛擬資產"},{"start":694.315,"end":707.824,"text":"冷錢包據我所知就是我們現在虛擬資產上面那個就是我們可以大聲一點好不好就是可以收收那個就是可以接收虛擬虛擬資產的帳虛擬資產加起來就是冷錢包你們在5月17號你們有公布一個有一個作業系統就針對冷錢包你們類似管理的一個辦法"},{"start":724.417,"end":751.565,"text":"然後其實大家都知道虛擬貨幣沙瓦都把虛擬貨幣當國幣啊虛擬貨幣如果帶進來它可以放在USB裡面任何的形式一點點一點點你根本查都查不到變成一個洗錢的工具喔好了現在美國捐給我們一支全台灣一支第一支電子產品偵測權能夠秀出冷錢包"},{"start":754.671,"end":768.519,"text":"這個部長你知道這件事情嗎?莊部長知道嗎?他送過我們一支,這個當然不是送給你啦齁,送給警政署的。來,公務署他講話可以啊。我們有沒有這一支?有沒有這一支裙,有沒有?沒有,要不要買?這個走私啊,這個洗錢的。"},{"start":778.837,"end":806.311,"text":"我們有權訊中心我們有權資的這個來源那我們的權沒有辦法修這個這是很unique很unique主委你覺得我們需不需要引進這樣的一個嗅覺冷錢包的權要不要呃我想齁我們站在制度的建立任何有助於比如說防範犯罪健全市場我們都可以來考慮部長我在跟你提醒吶"},{"start":807.694,"end":825.623,"text":"大家計時海關特別是金管會你管的虛擬貨幣是怕洗錢怕洗錢這個就很容易洗錢一個小小的USB你怎麼知道是那個呢只有不可能收嘛全身收我USB就是人錢包"},{"start":827.011,"end":847.099,"text":"有這樣的權是美國送我們一隻去打電話給你們部長謝謝委員的一個提示我們再去進一步的瞭解然後看看盡快喔你去跟警政署聯絡一下問一下這樣的權啦再跟美國要一隻嘛你們海關用阿不然就去買啊我們不是沒有錢"},{"start":848.339,"end":848.459,"text":"國管委員"}]}},{"id":"153368","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153368","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba2a617fc7f54b54ed4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374462a95f0ae2b031845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:29:32 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09:40:44","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:29:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T09:40:44+08:00","duration":672,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":166,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時29分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委好。今天要討論這個議題，我覺得那個範圍很大，尤其是節能減碳中間這個「碳」，現在是一個很夯的話題了，可是你瞭不瞭解，其實並不是大家都朝著一致的看法，像美國總統拜登他當然非常重視這個議題，民主黨很重視這個議題，因為從高爾開始，就一直在講全球暖化的問題；但是川普卻認為這是一個假議題，當然川普的講法有點極端，但這是兩種完全不同的思考方式，我們臺灣照現在的講法，都一面倒地朝向淨零這個方向，這樣子是對的嗎？有沒有另外一種思考？是不是要稍微平衡思考一下呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。其實有關減碳，就我所知，就學術或是在很多方面，其實是有爭議的，不過，現在的主流思維還是跟我們現在所做的方向是一致的。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，主流思維要減碳，然後現在碳權要買賣，有人就說這真是一筆好生意啊！比爾蓋茲在美國買了非常多的農場，他準備要大賺一筆，因為農場只要有種樹，只要種綠色植物，在碳的買賣上，他就可以有源源不斷的收入，也有這樣子的講法。","同一個時間、全世界也沒有一致的標準，如果臺灣對碳權的要求這麼的先進、這麼的前衛，甚至要達到跟歐洲最先進地方一樣的標準，它的優勝劣敗，有沒有評估過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分的話，現在以金管會的立場，我們大概會從兩個方向走，一個就是金融業的本身，另外就是我們透過上市櫃公司的管理去導引大家往這個方向走。"],["吳委員秉叡：有，你的報告裡面就是這樣講。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然我們的目標其實設得比較遠以後，但是我們希望，既然這是國家的政策，我們就逐步來推動。當然評估的部分，我們是按照我們金管會自己規劃的進程在進行。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。你有沒有聽過一個概念叫綠色通膨？因為這一些都是要成本的，我舉個例子，我剛剛為什麼說全世界標準不一樣會產生問題，你拿這樣簡單的標準要求發展中國家，它有能力可以遵守嗎？要求中國，它有辦法可以遵守嗎？要求非洲、中亞這些國家，它有辦法可以遵守嗎？顯然短期之內不可能，當它不遵守的時候，臺灣的貿易處在一個先天不利的地位，被中國長期欺負、打壓，所以很多國際之間的貿易組織我們是進不去的，我們臺灣本身的製造業的關稅平均起來就比別的地方的製造業要再高，當其他國家不用這些碳費、不用這一些成本的時候，臺灣就急著要把它抓進來，這在某一個角度，是不是在大戰略上面，要讓臺灣的製造業離開臺灣？因為成本墊高了之後，當然有一部分會說，我在技術上可以超越，我是非常先進的企業，我不受這個控制，我不受這個影響，但是，還是有一些為了2%、3%利潤在苦苦求生、謀生存的這些中小企業，在這個被墊高之後，它如何生存呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在推動永續金融裡面，有一個很重要的就是要協助企業永續轉型，透過我們的投融資貸放來協助，所以像我們推動一些所謂綠色的放款、綠色的金融商品，其中某一部分就是要協助我們的企業來達到轉型，當然誠如委員講的，有一些在所謂轉型上會有比較大的困難的產業，我想這個可能不全然是金管會所能主政，但是我們就從永續金融角度，我們會儘量提供一些投融資的貸放……"],["吳委員秉叡：轉型跟理論講起來都很容易，在學術殿堂或是國會裡面，這樣誇誇其談都很容易，問題是到了製造業、到了這些中小企業，它面臨的就是生存的問題，淨零轉型貸款給它，要求它要升級，有這麼容易嗎？我記得之前有政治人物說2030年所有的燃油機車都不能用了，就引起多大的風暴，你知道嗎？","好，我現在再問你，就先不講中小企業了，講中鋼就好，中鋼一年的碳權要繳多少錢？照目前這樣算起來，是不是至少幾十億以上？因為中國的大量傾銷，我們的鋼本來就已經很難生存了，在全世界幾乎都沒有競爭力了，因為中國是用國家在外面補貼了，它是一個不公平的貿易，這時候我們再把自己加上去，跟你競爭的那個企業不用，它不用去負擔這些成本，到底要如何競爭呢？現在要問的是這樣的問題，當然，我今天問的這個問題可能跟顯學、通識說的大家就是要走淨零轉型，要走淨零轉型也是可以談，問題是你有沒有思考到另一面的問題？這個速度如果太快或是這些配套如果不足，每一家中小企業就是面臨這些員工的生存問題，臺灣到底要不要製造業，你是要趕出去嗎？還是臺灣都不要低階製造業？或是像美國一樣，過去因為全球化，讓它的製造業到全世界去發展，現在才開始用大量的政策補貼來要求製造業重返美國。所以這個思考不是這麼簡單，就是要淨零轉型，大家都希望環境越來越好，有誰希望環境壞？但是問題是要做得到啊！在這一方面如果你們催太緊、太快的時候，我很擔心臺灣社會到底受得了受不了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：從金管會的立場，對於剛才講的金融機構和上市櫃公司的管理上面，我們現在也有體察到這一點，所以我們都是採取鼓勵的措施，而不是用強制的措施，針對剛剛講的ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑，我們都是採用鼓勵、導引的方式，畢竟牽涉到碳權、碳費及碳稅問題，都不是金管會所能主政的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道不是你們能主政的，但是因為今天要談這個問題，我在財政委員會主要就是要問你，因為你要瞭解、思考的是全體，而不是……，政治這個東西，你要走在眾人前面一步，可以引導眾人，讓眾人看得到你，走得太遠看不到的時候叫先知，自古先知都是寂寞的，因為跟不上。","同樣的邏輯思考方式，我再請教你另外一個問題，獨立董事新制上路，2024年要先適用初次申請股票上市櫃公司、實收資本額達新臺幣100億公司以及金融保險業上市櫃公司，你們現在規定獨立董事人數不得少於3人，且不得少於董事席次三分之一，獨立董事半數以上連續任期不得超過三屆。當你們提出這樣的政策，學界立刻就說人才荒，獨立董事的人要從哪裡來？哪裡有這麼多的獨立董事可以用？是不是要思考這個問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，其實我們對於獨立董事任期有一個上限規定，是要考慮到其獨立性的維持，再來，證基會有一個獨立董事人才庫，上面也有協助上市櫃公司去尋找獨立董事。"],["吳委員秉叡：夠不夠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在應該有1,500位符合資格的候選人在那個資料庫上面。"],["吳委員秉叡：你總共要用多少人？如果照這個標準，你總共要用多少人？一千七百多家上市櫃公司，到2027年的時候全部至少要有3個以上，那就要五千多人，而且有一半以上不可以連任三屆以上。"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是現在根據法律規定，1個人可以兼任4個獨立董事，我們有1,500人，我們初步評估現在的量能應該是夠的，只是適不適合是由他們各個公司來評估。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個人才庫有一千五百多人，他們就可以成立獨董俱樂部，跟公司沒有關係，我有這個資格，你們就得來聘我，不然會發生人才荒，不夠啊！這是供給和需求的問題，這是簡單的數學問題，所以我具備這個資格，假設有一天我不當立委了，我是律師就可以掛進這個人才庫，不相干、不認識的這些公司就來請我當獨董，是這樣的概念嗎？我在公司完全沒有股份，公司的經營好壞我要如何負責？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛那個人才庫只是提供一個資訊給上市櫃公司參考，至於適不適合、專長符不符合是由……"],["吳委員秉叡：律師哪有專長不符合？公司的董監事，律師、會計師都是非常符合資格的條件，我只是要跟你講，制度的推行有它的合理性，但是要循序漸進，你要抓住那個tempo，有時候太急太趕。另外，過去公司法的設計，我大學時候唸的公司法，他會去當董監事是因為對這間公司有比較大的持股，所以公司好他也會跟著好，公司不好他會跟著不好，因為這是我的財產。如果現在公司都大量用獨董，在公司沒有持股也可以，都用這樣的概念的時候，公司的經營成敗我就不care了，公司垮了，我只是獨董沒得做而已，對我的財產沒有損失，所以這個也是要思考的點。過去的制度有其存在的原因，新的制度有要達到的目的，這個要如何能夠融合在一起，有勞你們多多費心了，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：在未來的制度設計，我們會納入來考慮，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。","請賴委員士葆質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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"現在要問的是一個這樣的問題當然我今天問的這個問題可能說跟這個顯學啦 跟同事說大家就是要走淨零轉型走淨零轉型 要談也可以談啊問題是你有沒有思考到另一面的問題這個速度如果太快或是說這一些的配套如果不足"},{"start":355.885,"end":374.852,"text":"每一家的中小企業就是面臨這些員工的生存問題製造業到底 台灣到底要不要 你是要趕出去嗎還是說台灣都不要低階製造業還是要像美國一樣過去全球化讓它的製造業到全世界去然後現在才開始用大量的這個政策補貼要求製造業重返美國"},{"start":377.712,"end":396.457,"text":"這個思考不是這麼簡單說我這個淨體轉型大家都希望環境越來越好有誰希望環境壞但是問題是要做得到啊那這一方面如果你們吹太暗的時候吹得太快我很擔心台灣社會到底受得了受不了"},{"start":398.518,"end":422.279,"text":"我們從金管會的立場我們對剛才講金融機構跟上市櫃公司的管理上面我們現在也有體察到這一點我們採取都是用鼓勵的措施而不是用強制的這樣措施就剛剛那個講這個ESG評鑑或永續金融評鑑我們都是採用鼓勵的方式用導引畢竟剛才牽涉到比如說我們的探權、探費還有探稅的問題都不是金管會所能主政"},{"start":423.021,"end":445.223,"text":"我知道不是你們的主政我今天因為今天要談這個問題在談這個問題我就主要要問你嘛因為你要了解你要思考的是全體而不是政治這個東西你要走在眾人前的一步可以引導眾人眾人看得到你走得太遠看不到的時候比較先知啊自古先知都是寂寞的因為跟不上啊"},{"start":446.072,"end":453.114,"text":"我在同樣的邏輯思考方式回來請教你另外一個問題你獨立董事現在要弄心智嘛"},{"start":453.956,"end":454.756,"text":"有提出這樣的政策嗎"},{"start":481.53,"end":489.601,"text":"然後學界立刻就說那人才荒啊你獨立董事的人要從哪裡來啊哪裡有這麼多的獨立董事可以用啊是不是要思考這個問題"},{"start":493.099,"end":515.106,"text":"謝謝委員那其實我們對於這個獨立董事任期就有一個上限規定是要考慮到他的獨立性的維持那再來我們有那個政績會有個獨立獨立董事人才庫上面也有協助上市櫃公司去尋找他的獨立董事的現在應該有1500位符合資格的候選人在那個資料庫上面"},{"start":515.691,"end":529.787,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":530.748,"end":558.599,"text":"有一半以上不可以連任三次以上喔對對不能連任三屆那現在是主要是我們現在根據我們的法律規定一個人可以兼任四個獨立董事所以我們有1500個人這樣我們初步的評估應該是現在是量能是夠只是說適不適合那是由他們各個公司來評估那所以這個人才顧1500多人他們就可以成立獨統俱樂部跟公司沒有關係我有這個資格你們就得來騙我不然你人才方不夠啊"},{"start":559.981,"end":581.141,"text":"這是供給跟需求的問題啊這個是簡單的數學問題嘛所以我具備這個資格假設有一天我不當立委了我律師我就掛進人才庫那不相干不認識的這些公司就來請我當讀董是這樣的概念嗎那我對公司完全沒有股份公司的經營好壞我要如何負責"},{"start":582.23,"end":587.311,"text":"律師哪有專長不符合公司的董事、董監事、律師、會計師都是非常符合資格的條件那我只是要跟你講說制度的推行"},{"start":604.255,"end":631.984,"text":"有它的合理性但是要循序漸進你要抓住那個tempo啦你有的時候太急、太趕另外一點過去公司的設計就我大學的時候念的公司法回去當董監事是因為我對這間公司我有一個比較大的持股所以公司好我會跟著好公司不好我會跟著不好因為是我的財產那如果現在都大量用獨董公司沒有持股也可以都用這樣的概念來的時候那公司經營的成敗"},{"start":634.744,"end":636.985,"text":"吳秉叡委員的質詢接著我們請賴世保委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaa9bed76d2adee67b4622ddde1e3527b9446d6a815e91374437e0100f850ec7665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:18:00 - 09:29:18","影片長度":"00:11:18","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進ESG制度評鑑、永續報告書及公司治理評鑑制度，並導引金融機構落實放貸及貸後管理工作」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:18:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-30T09:29:18+08:00","duration":678,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":105,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時17分）謝謝主席，是不是請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["林委員德福：還有金管會的彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長、主委你好，首先請問彭主委，美債殖利率飆升，美股大盤欲振乏力，道瓊收黑410點，收盤創5月份以來的最低點，反觀從4月19號，我們整個臺股大盤從低點的1萬9,291點，一直拉到最近大盤已經漲了兩千六百多點，我請問主委，你認為臺股最近的表現是不是和美股脫鈎？你的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，身為證券市場的主管機關，我們關注的是整個市場的制度，當然臺股站在全球股市仍會受到美國股市及國際情勢的影響……"],["林委員德福：那有沒有脫鈎，你認為呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實臺灣有自己的基本面，當然也會受到影響。"],["林委員德福：所以不會美股上我們就上，美股下我們就下，是不是？因為這次剛好整個倒著走啊，是不是這樣子，你的看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然我們關注的是整個制度面會不會影響到我們市場的安定，但是所有國際上面的因素應該都對臺股有影響。"],["林委員德福：因為臺股處在高檔，目前你認為持續樂觀還是要居高思危呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實我覺得股票市場短期會受到消息面的影響，長期還是會回到基本面，我們看國發會的景氣對策信號，今年4月是在2022年3月以後第一次轉為黃紅燈，也是顯現我們的經濟景氣是審慎樂觀。"],["林委員德福：所以你還是非常的看好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：審慎樂觀。"],["林委員德福：我再請教，中信金和新光金合併的傳言四起，你擔任金管會主委，你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：市場上有關合併的案子都是市場上的一些傳言，我想金管會身為金融市場的主管機關，一定會密切關注所有的動向，但是對於傳聞案例，金管會無法評論，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：好，那我請教，要是金控合併對整個金融圈到底有什麼影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金控的整併牽涉到市場競爭以及市場安定，除了金管會還有所謂的市場競爭、公平會還有市場結合的議題，我想它的層面非常複雜。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！主委，因為陳主計長昨天備詢時說，目前整個情況持續看好，今年經濟成長率至少可以達到3.5%，美國道瓊走勢或許是反映居高思危，我請問主委，你認為臺股屢創新高，我們到底要如何提醒投資大眾必須居高思危，把臺股看成是已經預先反應未來經濟走勢，還是國內整個經濟情勢反彈還不到高點？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，我剛剛跟您報告過，金管會對未來大盤不做預測，但是我們還是要提醒所有投資人注意風險，審慎選股。"],["林委員德福：注意風險，那你認為我們整個臺股大盤未來還有沒有機會再創新高？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我剛剛講的，金管會對未來不做任何的預期，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！好。部長，為了避免租賃公司放款給年輕小白導致債臺高築，甚至於子債父償，媒體報導財政部已經號令八大行庫強化貸後的管理，據金融業者透露，有些行庫已經研擬訂定具有懲罰機制的提前到期條款，以杜絕管理漏洞。請問部長，是不是有要求業者研擬制式化的流程或作法，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關融資租賃業一些貸放上的社會關注，本部在3月28號例行的公股金融事業研討會裡面有提醒公股銀行要衡酌融資租賃業的營運特性，精進徵授信以及貸後管理的措施，並沒有叫公股銀行……而且就我們瞭解，公股銀行也沒有以下作為，譬如要簽承諾書，或者是保證資金不可以去做先買後付，以及如果違反承諾就要全部收回貸款等等，並沒有做這樣的事情。"],["林委員德福：沒有喔？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["林委員德福：因為據媒體報導的內容，由金融業者要求簽署切結書，具結所獲得的資金不會流向先買後付業者，接著查核資金的用途是否和原申貸計畫相符，若不相符，銀行將提前收回一部分，甚至於全部收回資金。請問你認為這樣的方式是不是貸後管理的有效作法？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財政部在3月28號提醒公股行庫要注意融資租賃業的營運特性，但是並沒有要求公股金融事業如同剛剛委員所說的，要寫切結書、承諾書或提前收回這些，並沒有做這樣的一個具體要求，公股金融事業對於相關資金的貸後管理是本來都要做的，也就是當時貸放給他做什麼用途，他是不是有按照這樣的計畫使用；同時我們也知道臺北市租賃業公會已經對於所謂的先買後付以及車輛交易的業務訂立一個自律規範，包含外界重視的利率揭露，以及遲延利息和違約金不可以併收等等，以及對合作商家的管理、對消費者徵授信的機制，還有個人資料的保護，這個部分既然公會訂了相關的自律規範，我們也會促請公股銀行在辦理徵授信業務的時候，要把這個自律規範一併納來做審酌，落實金融事業的監理工作……"],["林委員德福：你認為公會這樣的要求，在執行上會不會有困難度？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，我想租賃商業同業公會既然已經訂了這個自律規範，我們認為他們就是應該要這樣子去做，然後我們公股金融事業在授信的時候，也要去注意他們的借款戶有沒有合乎這個自律規範。"],["林委員德福：對於金融業者貸放後必須強化貸後的管理，來追查資金的流向，以避免貸放金額流入先買後付的業務。媒體報導，合庫金控董事長表示，應該要由銀行公會來訂定一致性的規範，也就是公民營銀行都應該受到規範約束，才能夠解決金流破口的問題。我請問部長，貸後整個管理的做法是由銀行公會統一、一致性來規範、來約束公民營銀行的提議，你認為是不是比較理想，還是你認為金管會應該要進一步主導貸後管理規範的必要？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個涉及到金管會的權責，我們尊重金管會的看法。"],["林委員德福：彭主委，你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關全體銀行，比如說貸後管理的部分，我想這一項就是我們金管會會注意的項目，至於剛剛委員提到的這部分，我們會再請銀行公會來研議。"],["林委員德福：因為現在等於都是由公會來主導，對不對？關於公會主導，要是公民營銀行有一致性，金管會跟財政部認同，他們一定會這樣去做，你認為這樣妥當嗎？請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個攸關全體銀行的貸放作業，這部分我們會通盤來考量。"],["林委員德福：對啊！你要好好的研擬，好不好？","根據財政部統計，截至今年1月底，八家公股銀行對融資租賃業貸款餘額合計1,359億餘元，請問主委，金管會到底有沒有民營銀行行庫對融資租貸業或貸款餘額的統計數字，有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員如果允許，我可不可以請銀行局局長跟您回復？謝謝。"],["林委員德福：可以啊！"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，我們是有個別去統計各個銀行對於融資公司的放款。"],["林委員德福：公立的你知道，那私立的你知不知道到底有多少？"],["莊局長琇媛：我們也有在調查。"],["林委員德福：只有調查而已，但你到目前沒有數字，是不是？"],["莊局長琇媛：我們其實是有數字。"],["林委員德福：那你可不可以公布啊？才可以讓大家瞭解公私銀行貸款給這些租賃業者到底加總起來一共有多少。"],["莊局長琇媛：個別金融機構的數字我們當然不太方便……"],["林委員德福：總數你總有吧？"],["莊局長琇媛：總體的數字我們是可以說……"],["林委員德福：可以的話，你現在講出來啊！"],["莊局長琇媛：大概是3,000億左右。"],["林委員德福：私有銀行貸3,000億，公有的是1,359億？"],["莊局長琇媛：那是所有的銀行。"],["林委員德福：所以公私立加起來3,000億左右？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["林委員德福：其實財委會安排這個議程，主要是希望透過銀行公會，甚至於針對貸後管理制定一個比較好的規範，也比較適合，主委，你認為由金管會訂定比較合適，還是你認為由現在這些公會他們來制定比較適當？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會循過去的往例來處理這個問題，大概還是先由公會來做相關的規範。"],["林委員德福：我是希望你們在這方面要予以重視，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的質詢。接著我們請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-15","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","陳玉珍","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","林楚茵","邱志偉","張智倫","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":209,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬相關單位就「如何精進 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訂定一致性的規範也就是公民銀行"},{"start":471.286,"end":480.353,"text":"都應該要受到規範約束才能解決金流破口的問題那我請問部長貸後的整個管理"},{"start":482.165,"end":505.237,"text":"做法是由銀行公會統一一致性來規範來約束公民銀行的提議你認為是不是比較理想還是你認為金管會應該要有進一步主導貸後管理規範的必要我想這個涉及到金管會的權責我們尊重金管會的一個看法彭主委那你有什麼看法"},{"start":506.084,"end":506.624,"text":"因為你等於是現在都是由工會來主導嗎?"},{"start":522.043,"end":534.299,"text":"對不對那你要是當然公會主導要是公民銀行一致信那金管會跟財政部認同他們一定會這樣去做那你認為這樣妥當嗎 那個主委"},{"start":538.189,"end":540.931,"text":"根據財政部統計,截至今年一月底,八家公股銀行對融資租賃業貸款餘額合計1359億元。"},{"start":560.326,"end":573.796,"text":"請問主委金管會到底有沒有民營銀行、行庫對這個融資、租貸業或貸款餘額的統計數字有沒有委員如果允許我可不可以請銀行局局長跟您回覆可以啊謝謝"},{"start":578.506,"end":606.909,"text":"報告委員我們是有個別去統計就是各個銀行對於融資公司的放款那你公立製造那私立的你知不知道到底有多少我們也有在調查只有調查而已你到目前沒有數字嘛是不是我們其實是有數字有數字那你可不可以公布啊因為才讓大家了解說到底公司銀行貸款給這些租賃業者到底一共有加起來有加總有多少"},{"start":607.409,"end":620.737,"text":"我們就是個別金融機構的數字我們大概不太方便總數你總有吧對總體的數字我們是可以那可以你現在講啊大概是3000億左右3000億對啊私有的銀行貸3000億那公有的是1359所有的銀行公私利加起來3000億左右"},{"start":629.643,"end":652.382,"text":"因為其實財委會會排這個主要當然我們是希望說透過這個由銀行公會甚至於制定貸後管理比較好的一個規範這個也比較適合那由金管會訂定你認為是比較合適還是那個主委還是認為由現在這些公會他們來制定比較適當"},{"start":653.863,"end":664.778,"text":"我想過去我們會循過去的往例來處理這個問題當然還是先由工會來做相關的規範我是希望你們在這方面要去重視謝謝謝謝林德福的質詢現在我們請吳秉樂委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"153366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba394692606851d82b8c05f44c04a464db446d6a815e91374449fd245485fe178c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:16:57 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record，你過去的經歷這麼漂亮，做過臺中市長、部會首長、立委，而且你的關係這麼好。"],["林部長佳龍：外交對臺灣最重要了，臺灣現在是外交最重要。"],["賴委員士葆：外交很辛苦，來這裡做沒成績，來這裡做沒成績！"],["林部長佳龍：有委員的支持，我一定會更有成績。"],["賴委員士葆：外交什麼成績？你現在能不能講，第一個，以後你的部長任內，絕對不會有一國再斷交，你敢這樣說嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們全力以赴顧好邦交，而且要繁榮我們的邦交國，讓它……"],["賴委員士葆：一年內如果再斷一個……"],["林部長佳龍：讓它跟我們的關係更緊密。"],["賴委員士葆：你把官位拿出來、烏紗帽拿出來，林佳龍現在說成這樣多有使命感，可以！有氣魄一點，拍胸脯保證，一年內如果斷交一國就下台，你敢不敢這樣講？敢嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們要比較正向來思考我們的外交工作。"],["賴委員士葆：正向啊！外交部長沒有外交國，什麼叫外交？你認同臺灣如果邦交國變零也沒關係，你認同嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我是全力以赴一定要……"],["賴委員士葆：你認不認同？"],["林部長佳龍：不只固邦，而且要榮邦。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫榮邦？"],["林部長佳龍：就是繁榮跟我們有交往的國家，特別是我們的邦交國。"],["賴委員士葆：今天沒有聽到林佳龍……"],["林部長佳龍：不只是固邦，真的要針對它的國家發展，我們臺灣can help好好地去做。"],["賴委員士葆：我前面誇獎你是因為我是臺中人，你當過臺中市長，所以我給你加1分，你知道嗎？結果你的氣魄都沒有拿出來，氣魄、氣魄，不是榮邦，加邦才對啊！加一個邦交國，敢嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一起來努力。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有機會？也不敢？"],["林部長佳龍：有啦！現在世界上有很多國家都知道，其實像宏都拉斯，大家都知道……"],["賴委員士葆：它跟我們斷交了。"],["林部長佳龍：現在它的白蝦就賣不出去，所以我們不是……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你現在要叫它再賣到臺灣，我們和它再建交？"],["林部長佳龍：大家要歡喜甘願交往才會長久，我們要同理心去替這些國家想，我們怎麼發展……"],["賴委員士葆：枉費我前面這樣誇獎你，可是你後面都……敢不敢承諾斷交就要下台，你也不敢承諾，你這樣變成吳釗燮第二了，斷交5、6、7、8個都沒有關係，又不下台！請問你……"],["林部長佳龍：我們是用做的，不是用說的啦，臺灣的外交真的很艱辛。"],["賴委員士葆：外交做好才不會被斷交，老共的打壓不是只有今天。我問你現在最危險的邦交國，大家都講教廷很危險，守得住嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：梵蒂岡。"],["賴委員士葆：梵蒂岡守得住嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：它很危險？沒有，它沒有很危險啊！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有很危險？人家說得很危險。"],["林部長佳龍：怎麼會危險？我們好好的跟它發展關係，臺灣的天主教徒也很多，它也是一個很注重價值的教廷。"],["賴委員士葆：其實它一直要跟中國大陸建交，主要是因為中國大陸那邊的主教可以自己派，這一點解決就解決了，最近他們的關係就close了，又更緊密，你不會擔心？"],["林部長佳龍：當然我們要密切關注，不只是關心。"],["賴委員士葆：如果是紅、黃、綠，它應該屬於什麼燈？"],["林部長佳龍：我認為只要我們努力……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我，它是什麼燈？"],["林部長佳龍：大家都會覺得跟臺灣交往真的是彼此互惠。"],["賴委員士葆：我前面誇獎你就是希望你講真話，你都不敢講真話，不能這樣喔！最後，另外問你一個很重要的消息，你要認真講、說實話，川普說：老共只要打臺灣，他要轟炸北京，這句話你聽了怎麼樣？你的感覺呢？"],["林部長佳龍：選舉期間就像臺灣一樣，我們候選人也是……"],["賴委員士葆：選舉語言？選舉語言聽聽就好？"],["林部長佳龍：這個是他們在選舉時候訴諸他們選民的支持，我們就不介入，基本上最終還是要觀察長期的臺美關係發展。"],["賴委員士葆：他現在跟拜登兩人在飆車、打臺灣牌飆車，拜登說只要打，要出兵保衛臺灣，川普覺得這樣不夠，他要加碼，你打臺灣，我就轟炸北京，嚇嚇叫！所以你的感覺都是選舉語言？"],["林部長佳龍：他們要保衛臺灣，這一點我們要感謝。"],["賴委員士葆：保衛臺灣當然要感謝啊！所以呢？"],["林部長佳龍：因為臺海的和平與穩定涉及到全世界的利害關係。"],["賴委員士葆：他打北京那是他們的事情，但問題臺灣就被打了，它用這個來刺激臺灣說要打臺灣，不要忘了戰場是在臺灣，臺灣怎麼打都是輸家，這個你同意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們臺灣是一個跟理念相近國家，基本上讓大家覺得我們不是在改變現狀，是對岸在改變現狀，因此世界都要一起來面對這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：你說這些話就像泥鰍一樣都抓不到，都沒有回答到。好啦！最後一個，你總是要讓我得到我要的答案，我就下去，好不好？你感覺川普講這個話是選舉語言嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得也不能這樣子就替他來斷言，我們還是要持續關注這個發展。"],["賴委員士葆：拜登說要出兵保衛臺灣，因為從阿富汗、越南之後，從來沒有在海外出兵，烏克蘭都沒有，他會出兵臺灣嗎？這個看起來就是選舉語言嘛，對不對？你給我一個答案，你聽到是more than happy、happy還是no comment？"],["林部長佳龍：他們現在就是認為比較像是中共在改變現狀，他們希望跟臺灣一樣能夠維護現狀，在這一點上面我們是立場一致，至於大國之間不管是涉及到動不動兵的問題，尤其在選舉期間，臺灣會密切關注，但我們也不去介入他們內政的部分，但是值得關注喔！"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答問題，是more than happy嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有？不happy嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：所以你是不happy聽到這個消息……"],["林部長佳龍：但是大家要保護臺灣，或確保臺海的和平和穩定，我們是支持的。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：本席再說一句話啦！任何國家幫助臺灣，我們舉雙手雙腳贊成，但是如果對我們過度好，像美國議員說的，到時候戰場變成臺灣，這對我們來說是不好的。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.28409375000000003,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.72221875,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.19034375,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.5572187500000005,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.99534375,"end":13.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.51784375,"end":19.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.89284375,"end":21.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.05284375,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.09909375,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.36909375,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.86659375,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.58346875,"end":28.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.152843750000002,"end":31.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.637843750000002,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.455968750000004,"end":35.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.73846875,"end":36.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.19409375,"end":37.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.94909375,"end":38.556593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.06284375,"end":40.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.81784375,"end":42.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.13784375,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.16721875,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.04471875,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.39471875,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.96846875,"end":49.424093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.424093750000004,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.149718750000005,"end":57.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.882843750000006,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.80221875,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.63721875,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.94909375,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.45096875,"end":66.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.12596875,"end":67.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.95284375,"end":70.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.03284375,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.77096875000001,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.29346875,"end":81.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.81221875,"end":77.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.95971875000001,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.76909375000001,"end":84.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.73909375000001,"end":86.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.24534375,"end":88.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.33346875000001,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.86471875000001,"end":94.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.62346875,"end":97.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.95659375000001,"end":98.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.17596875000001,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.34471875000001,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.01534375,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.06596875000001,"end":100.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.75784375,"end":100.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.80846875,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.82534375,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.12034375,"end":104.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.01034375,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.04409375,"end":106.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.63034375000001,"end":107.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.64721875000001,"end":108.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.77346875,"end":111.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.70971875000001,"end":113.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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第一次來這裡人是不錯的林佳龍就外面黨外或是在野黨的對你不會討厭不會討厭謝謝但我們希望你講真話因為我就知道你希望講真話而且你勇於擔當出事情的交通部長你的"},{"start":34.706,"end":42.55,"text":"賴主,來,我就問你一個,聽說很多的報導啦,說這個位置不是你的首選啦,你點頭嗎?是。"},{"start":47.133,"end":63.999,"text":"不是首選喔我聽得懂你講的不是首選嘛有更適合的人才的話我們當然這個可以嘛不是說話又要倒過來講嘛你比較想那個位置去用講去所以之後無奈端端有就好這樣說對不對不對"},{"start":68.16,"end":94.558,"text":"你這樣說就是這樣啊,不是你首選啊,不是你的首選啊有人要擔比較重的擔子齁,我們應該給他加油對嘛,你這講出來選外之音嘛,你應該想去現在卓榮泰的位置嘛卓榮泰什麼位置,行政院長,對不對,我也覺得你來做比較好勒你的精力比他多很多勒,卓榮泰做院長你不做院長,我替你報不平勒"},{"start":96.698,"end":107.93,"text":"你有沒有感覺我跟你很知音?我講出你心裡的話。其實外交工作很重要啊。沒有啦,我選政院長啦。選政院長更重要啦。總統跟院長認為我來這裡可以為國家貢獻。你覺得你來這裡會委屈?"},{"start":118.123,"end":141.479,"text":"昨天他就做院長,被你的長官搞奇怪,你的經歷,他都沒有首長的經歷,你都有。你做立委,你也做過立委。比一比嘛,我們英文流言你都很清楚,我們叫track record,過去的經歷。你經歷這麼漂亮,做過台中市長、部會首長、做過立委。"},{"start":142.932,"end":159.065,"text":"外交對台灣最重要了,台灣現在是外交最重要。外交很辛苦,來這裡做不成績啦,來這裡做不成績啦。有你的支持,我一定會更有成績。外交什麼成績?你現在能不能講說,第一個以後任內,你當部長任內,絕對不會有一條再斷條,你這樣說。"},{"start":166.496,"end":187.472,"text":"我們全力以赴,顧好邦交,而且要繁榮我們的邦交國啊,讓他跟我們的關係更親密。你再可以拿出來,官位拿出來,有什麼拿出來,我林佳龍,你只要講到這樣,給我五十年間的一三天,給我去屁股,現金還回來了,一年內如果斷交一國,下台,幹,這樣講。"},{"start":192.691,"end":200.078,"text":"我們要先看比較正向來思考我們的外交工作外交部長沒有外交國你什麼叫外交你認同說臺灣如果邦交國變冷也沒關係你認同嗎我是全力以赴一定要不只固邦而且要龍邦什麼叫龍邦"},{"start":215.393,"end":233.386,"text":"就是繁榮我們的,跟我們有交往的國家,特別是我們的邦交國,不是是故郎,不是跟他亂說而已啦,要記得,真的是把他的國家的發展,我們台灣可以幫忙,好好地去做。我前陣子跟你說,我也是台中人,你很像台中市長,所以給你加一分,你知道嗎?結果你這樣,氣泡都沒拿出來,氣泡拿出來,氣泡氣泡,不是農幫,加幫才對啦,我要加一個邦交國,幹嗎?"},{"start":245.356,"end":258.386,"text":"我們一起來努力阿有啦現在很多世界的國家都知道說齁其實像宏都拉斯阿大家都知道阿他現在的白蝦就賣不出去啦"},{"start":259.963,"end":260.543,"text":"林佳龍報告業務概況．"},{"start":284.686,"end":298.391,"text":"請問您我們用做的真的不是用說的啦真的台灣的外交很艱辛喔外交做好才不會被斷交啊對不對老公打壓不是今天打好讓我再問你現在最危險的邦交國現在大家講叫停很危險啦守得住嗎叫停叫停叫停梵蒂岡對梵蒂岡守得住嗎他很危險你說他沒有很危險啊沒有很危險"},{"start":313.48,"end":336.954,"text":"其實中國大陸開始要跟中國大陸建交就是主要因為中國大陸的主教自己派這點解決就解決了最近他們的關係又close了又更揭秘你不會擔心當然我們要密切的關注如果紅綠紅黃綠他應該屬於什麼燈"},{"start":341.035,"end":357.621,"text":"我是認為只要我們努力,大家都會覺得跟臺灣交往,真的是彼此好互惠。我剛才在你耳朵就是希望你講真話,你都不敢講真話,不會這樣喔。來,最後另外一個問你一個很重要的消息,這一定要認真講喔,說實話喔。川普說喔,老共要打台灣,他要轟炸北京,這句話你聽得怎麼樣?你的感覺?"},{"start":368.195,"end":368.435,"text":"他現在跟拜登兩個在飆車打台灣牌飆車"},{"start":396.704,"end":407.405,"text":"拜登說只要打要出兵保衛台灣然後川普覺得這樣不好他要吃馬你打台灣我就轟炸北京嚇嚇叫"},{"start":409.059,"end":412.281,"text":"他們要保衛台灣這裡我們要感謝因為台海的和平與穩定涉及到是全世界的利害關係台灣就被打啦他用這個來刺激台灣說台灣要怎麼打不要忘了戰場在台灣台灣怎麼打都是輸家啦這個你同意嗎"},{"start":439.107,"end":439.968,"text":"你感覺川普講這個話是選舉語言嗎?"},{"start":469.378,"end":489.484,"text":"我覺得也不能這樣子就替他來斷言我們還是要持續關注這個發展拜登說要保衛台灣出兵因為從阿富汗從越南之後他從來沒有在海外出兵烏克蘭都沒有他會出兵台灣嗎這個看起來就是選舉語言嘛對不對那你給我一個答案嘛你是more than happy聽到還是happy聽到還是no comment"},{"start":500.1,"end":526.435,"text":"他們現在就是認為其實比較是像是說因為中共在改變現狀他們希望跟臺灣一樣能夠維護現狀在這一點上面我們是立場一致可是至於說大國之間的不管是這一個涉及到的動不動兵的問題我們尤其在選舉我想臺灣的我們是密切關注但我們也不去介入他們認證的部分但是值得關注喔"},{"start":528.68,"end":528.84,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153365","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba8f8af9da5580c441ea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cd521272009e48466f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:07:52 - 11:16:24","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":512,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:16:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:07:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩請呂次長。"],["主席：請呂次長。"],["陳委員瑩：我以為一般上來備詢的首長通常都會先說委員好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：好，次長好，我想跟你問好。沒關係，不要緊張。今天大家討論的主題是老人福利法，次長因為新上任可能不知道，過去我有多次提到老福法的問題，對於原住民老人的認定，我們一直希望能調整為55歲，原因是原住民的平均餘命和全體國人的差距將近10歲。說到平均餘命的問題，署長不必擔心，我今天沒有要跟你爭論要不要調到55歲，這個你可以會後再跟次長講。","次長，有沒有看過這個資料？"],["呂次長建德：有，有看到。"],["陳委員瑩：你覺得他寫得好嗎？"],["呂次長建德：嗯……"],["陳委員瑩：好了，沒關係，我是故意問你一下。這是原住民簡易生命表的分析內容，分析表的資料是每年由衛福部提供給內政部，然後再由內政部進行統計分析整理後公布，當然也包括把資料回饋給衛福部做為施政的參考。我們現在看到的是110年的資料，下一張是111年的資料。次長既然看過結論，你有沒有發現什麼問題？"],["呂次長建德：跟委員報告，目前平均餘命大概都是在延長，這是一般的趨勢，當然也是我們整個公共衛生和健保的貢獻。原住民的部分確實較一般……我想這也不光是臺灣，澳洲、紐西蘭等也有類似的情況，委員，這一部分我們會持續的推動。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣，數據的如實分析，沒關係，等一下，我們先繼續看好了，我要帶你做一下數學。這個結論的內容、標題都是一樣，原住民的平均餘命呈上升趨勢。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：還有跟全體國民差距呈縮小趨勢，前面都有加「長期」兩個字，好像看起來都是沒有錯的，可是這幾年的變化真的是這樣嗎？依照次長的瞭解就是如此嗎？如果不太確定也可以跟我講不知道或什麼，我不會把你送去我們那個法案，總統還沒公布。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我確實不太確定，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：沒關係，那我們再來看一下。這是原住民平均餘命的各年資料，呈上升趨勢沒有錯。這是原住民與全體國民平均餘命的差距資料，看起來也是在縮小，也沒錯，但是我們再看下一張，問題來了，如果我們看這個表，答案就不簡單了。之前大家有個說法，包括去年審查原住民族健康法的時候，衛福部也提供相同的資訊，105年到109年間這五年，原住民平均餘命總共提高了1.74歲，我把速度放慢，105年到109年原住民的平均餘命提高1.74歲，大家就四捨五入說我們平均餘命都提高了將近兩歲，可是全體國人也是提高1.32歲，所以這五年原住民平均餘命提高的情況並不是單純的如想像中的提高了將近兩歲。","我們再來看，如果我們講到原住民與全體國人的差距，政府公布的資訊是109年到111年這三年之間縮短了1.47歲，如果你沒有跟上我的速度，我可以再重複放慢沒有關係，但你要告訴我。"],["呂次長建德：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：實際上是這樣單純嗎？我們看看這個表2，各個年齡層在這三年間平均餘命的差距都縮小了1.5歲左右，可是我們看到下一排紅字的數據，這三年全體國人的平均餘命卻下降了大約1.5歲，所以這三年縮短差距的背後是全體國人平均餘命下降的結果而不是原住民的平均餘命上升。我再講一次，這個是全體國人平均餘命下降的結果，不是原住民平均餘命上升，所以用單一數據然後說明原住民平均餘命有大幅的改善，次長不覺得這個有很大的盲點嗎？"],["呂次長建德：我同意。"],["陳委員瑩：我們剛剛做的算數你都有follow了嗎？"],["呂次長建德：有。"],["陳委員瑩：這是用單一數據說故事的問題，衛福部送給行政院核定的原鄉健康不平等改善策略行動計畫也是這麼寫的，結果害去年行政院頒佈的新聞稿也是只寫平均餘命縮短差距幾歲卻沒有提到其他數據，其實這三年原住民平均餘命是稍微下降大概0.01歲，所以這個問題，衛福部內的機關單位，包括社家署、照護司、統計處等都會用這個數據的單位，一定要全面檢討而且要特別注意，因為這樣很容易造成民眾的誤解，你們每年提供資料給內政部時也都應該跟內政部好好的溝通一下這個問題，當一個數據交到你們手上時，應該要有很多的計算方式，橫向、縱向看到底要怎麼樣加加減減，會有不一樣的結果出來。數據的分析、如實分析其實是要找出問題的，是要研擬對策然後解決問題，不是說要來美化、粉飾太平，所以我特別做這樣的提醒。待會會後我會給你，這不是假新聞，這是一個真新聞但不是一個專業的新聞，你參考一下這個文健站的新聞稿，因為你新上任，我多送你36秒讓你休息。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員。我簡單回答一下，我們的研究法中，不同的測量就會有不同的結果，剛才委員確實指出這裡面整個測量measure的一些問題。"],["陳委員瑩：measure可以一樣，但你們計算怎麼看要研究一下。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯，這部分我再跟同仁好好研議，非常感謝委員的修正，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：反正這個跟按那個是不一樣的嘛。"],["呂次長建德：啊？"],["陳委員瑩：沒有啦，跟麥當勞按機器是不一樣的。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","接下來請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.52721875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.48346875,"end":26.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.199718750000002,"end":28.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.76909375,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.74784375,"end":30.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.50284375,"end":34.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.447843750000004,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.860968750000005,"end":35.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.05909375,"end":61.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.820968750000006,"end":48.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.844093750000006,"end":64.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.96596875,"end":70.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.77096875000001,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.23471875,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.37721875000001,"end":82.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.13659375,"end":81.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.83659375,"end":84.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.99221875,"end":86.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.16096875000001,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.13971875,"end":87.173468750000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﹏那大家就四舍五入嘛﹏說我們平均移民都提高將近兩歲囉﹏那可是全體國人也是提高1.32歲﹏所以這五年原住民的平均移民提高的情況﹏並不是單純的就是說我們的這個好像想像中就是提高了這個將近兩歲。"},{"start":279.497,"end":300.902,"text":"那我們再來看如果我們講到原住民與全體國人的差距政府公佈的資訊是109年到111年之間這三年縮短了1.47歲你如果沒有follow到我的速度我可以再重複放慢沒關係但是你要告訴我那可是實際上是這樣這麼單純嗎我們來看一下這個表二"},{"start":307.033,"end":328.018,"text":"這個各個年齡層這三年間平均餘命差距都縮小了1.5歲左右可是我們看到下一排紅字的這個數據這三年全體國人的平均餘命卻下降了大約1.5歲所以這三年的縮短差距的背後"},{"start":328.678,"end":353.665,"text":"是全體國人平均餘命下降的結果而不是原住民的平均餘命上升我再講一次這個是全體國人平均餘命下降的結果不是我們原住民平均餘命上升所以次長用單一數據然後說明原住民的平均餘命有大幅的改善你不覺得這個有很大的盲點嗎"},{"start":355.837,"end":372.268,"text":"我同意,我同意那個委員的意思。好,所以我們剛剛做的算數你都有follow了。好,那次長,這次用單一數據說故事的問題,就是連衛福部送給這個行政院核定的原鄉健康不平等改善策略行動計畫,也是這麼寫的。"},{"start":374.569,"end":391.917,"text":"結果害去年行政院頒布的新聞稿也是只寫平均餘命縮短差距幾歲,卻沒有提到其他的數據。其實這三年,原住民的平均餘命是稍微下降,大概少了0.01歲。所以次長這個問題,"},{"start":400.281,"end":423.319,"text":"委員會的機關單位包括社家署、照護司、統計處等等都會用這個數據的單位你們一定要全面檢討而且要特別注意因為這樣很容易造成民眾的誤解而且你們每年提供資料給內政部的時候也都應該要跟內政部好好的溝通一下這個問題當一個數據交到你們手上的時候"},{"start":426.682,"end":427.672,"text":"不是都只是"},{"start":428.973,"end":456.39,"text":"就是應該要有很多的計算方式,橫向、縱向,看到底要怎麼加加減減,會有不一樣的結果出來。所以數據的分析,我們的如實分析其實是要找出問題的,是要研擬對策,然後要解決問題,不是說要來美化然後粉飾太平。所以我在這裡特別做這樣的提醒,那我待會會後我會給你"},{"start":457.951,"end":480.545,"text":"這個不是假新聞,這是一個真新聞,但是它不是一個專業的新聞。那你也參考一下這個文件站的這個新聞稿。那因為你新上任,我多送你這個36秒讓你休息。我簡單回答一下就是說,我們在整個研究法裡面其實就是說你不同的測量就不同的結果啦。"},{"start":480.965,"end":499.919,"text":" ﹏那我想剛剛委員剛剛確實就是說也指出這裡面整個測量Major的一些問題﹏那這部分﹏Major可以一樣啊﹏但是你們計算怎麼看﹏是的沒錯﹏要自己研究﹏這邊我們會回來﹏我再跟同仁我們這邊再好好來研議﹏也非常感謝委員這邊的一個的一個修正﹏謝謝﹏反正這個跟那個案那個是不一樣的嗎﹏啊﹏沒有啦﹏跟麥當勞案機器那個是不一樣的﹏好﹏感謝委員謝謝﹏好謝謝﹏"},{"start":509.54,"end":509.762,"text":"好,謝謝陳瑩委員"}]}},{"id":"153364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaffc5d642e0fa135d1766e5648a1e6b71beba37a180c9b1cdf2f4c7b5986f42ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:12:05 - 11:18:25","影片長度":"00:06:20","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":380,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:18:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:12:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時12分）謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：好，我們請主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好，其實也辛苦了，其實剛剛就是讓你先喝一下咖啡。請問一下，我相信也很多委員都有請教你，因為最近你在跟媒體茶敘的時候提到對於核能的看法，你有三個原則，第一個是看電夠不夠；第二個是低碳電夠不夠，還有如何減碳；第三是2050的淨零目標。你這三個原則可不可以再花點時間說清楚一點？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我解釋一下，其實我是從企業來的，因為企業其實在意的是有沒有安全穩定的電、夠不夠電，為了這個，其實一開始我們有遇到台電的時候，我也大概都有提出來，台電其實告訴我的是他們的電力準備是非常完備的，我也看到一些數據，所以它是夠的，坦白講，我在內部會議的時候，我就有提出來核電已經不是一個重要議題，因為夠不夠才是一個重要議題。接下來我們要做的是怎麼做淨零碳排的路徑的執行，那……"],["李委員坤城：因為你有提到AI發展會增加到3成的電力需求。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那個是對機房的部分，不是總體電力，總體電力的話應該不到1%，將近3%，現在是調到3%的總體增加。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我覺得這個要講清楚啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那個是機房的部分。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，我一看就說：哇，為什麼AI發展就需要3倍的電力，所以是指機房的部分……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：機房的部分。"],["李委員坤城：所以全部的電力來講呢？就增加百分之……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：全部電力，從昨天經濟部出來的是總體會增加3%，它是有上調了。"],["李委員坤城：所以電是夠用的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：電是足夠的。至於核電的部分，我的看法是要經過一個公開的討論，然後讓新的國會跟新的政府去取得一個共識，這個共識還要得到人民的共識，接下來我們必須確保安全無虞，這個安全的準備，就我瞭解要好幾年，接下來是法律要能夠核准，這個核准大概還要5年。"],["李委員坤城：本席提醒一下主委，2025的非核家園不是說是民進黨的目標，這已經列在法律裡面了，而且公投也通過了。你有提到核能是低碳的能源，是否能成為綠能，有賴於核廢料有無良好的貯存，有良好的貯存，有機會成為綠能，這段話我不太理解。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是這樣的喔！在歐盟來看的話，第一個、你的核廢料必須要有一個良好的貯存……"],["李委員坤城：是良好的貯存，還是你要找到最終處置的地方？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，最終處置場，然後……"],["李委員坤城：這個要講清楚喔，因為貯存現在……比如說現在核廢料也是有暫時的貯存啊！比如說放在新北，跟找到最終的處置場是兩個不一樣的概念喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，也因此其實歐盟到現在還沒有核准過綠能。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為現在核電還不算是綠電嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它不算綠電，它只是低碳，它不是綠電。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我們的RE100裡面，百分之百用再生能源也沒有包括核電嘛！對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有包括，因為它不是再生能源。"],["李委員坤城：它不是再生能源？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["李委員坤城：它也沒辦法找到最終的處置場啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，再請教一下……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它找到也不會是再生能源。"],["李委員坤城：好，國民黨有提出來有關花東的3個法案，這3個法案都沒有經過大家合理的討論，2分鐘之內就通過大概上兆的、兩兆以上的法案，包含花東快還有環島高速鐵路，還有國六東延花蓮，請問一下主委，在國發會的規劃裡面，對於花東，因為我看到你們花東有推動花東離島地區永續發展，我問一下主委對於三大錢坑建設的看法是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分是交通的專業，我們沒有這個專業去評估，我們……"],["李委員坤城：對，當然不是，但是……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的作法是要它送上來……"],["李委員坤城：但是它也是在國發會裡面，對於花東的建設裡面，國民黨認為如果沒有這3個交通建設，花東就沒辦法發展，那我是問國發會的態度？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：立法院如果通過的話會經過我們的……就我瞭解會經過交通部的可行性研究，然後也有環評等等的問題以後，他們做出專業才有辦法針對……送上來……"],["李委員坤城：目前至少它沒有可行性的研究、沒有環境影響評估，當然在委員會沒有實質討論，所以當然交通部會再做專業性評估，我只是就教主委，就是在國發會的施政方向裡面，交通對於花東來講，它不是唯一發展的必要性，交通很重要，但是對於花東有更多的一些資源投入進去可以促進花東的發展，如果像這個三大交通建設，第一個、錢坑法案，不知道錢哪裡來；第二個、它是不是對於環境、自然會造成破壞，都要經過嚴密的評估，所以我只是問一下國發會主委你的看法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我還是覺得可行性評估一定要專業的交通部來做以後，然後也要有一個很完整的環境評估，然後再經過討論，然後才會有機會來探討。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！因為國發會就是有關於全國的重要性，不論是交通建設，所有的發展藍圖其實都在國發會裡面，像我們很多的交通建設也是需要國發會的整體性評估，所以我是說看一下國發會主委的態度，對我們來講，花東的建設很重要，但是第一個是錢坑法案；第二個、對於花東的環境、自然人文都會造成影響，我請主委要多加考慮，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來我們請陳亭妃委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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主委好 其實也辛苦了 其實剛剛就是讓你先喝一下咖啡了那請問一下 我相信也很多委員都請教你 因為最近你在跟媒體查序的時候提到說對於核能的看法 你有三個原則 第一個看電夠不夠 第二個是低碳電夠不夠 還有如何減碳 第三是2050的這個淨零目標 你這三個原則可不可以再花點時間再說清楚一點"},{"start":47.791,"end":69.964,"text":"我解釋一下,其實我是從企業來的,因為企業其實在意的是有沒有安全穩定的電,夠不夠電。那其實為了這個,其實我一開始我們有遇到台電的時候,大概我們都有提出來。那台電其實告訴我的是他們的電力準備是非常完備的,那我也看到一些數據。"},{"start":71.545,"end":84.977,"text":"所以他是夠的所以坦白講我在內部會議的時候我就有提出來那核電已經不是一個重要議題因為夠不夠才是一個重要議題那接下來我們要做的是我們做怎麼做淨零碳排的路徑的執行"},{"start":85.663,"end":112.223,"text":"因為你有提到就是說這個AI發展會增加到三成的電力的需求那個是對基房的部分不是總體電力總體電力的話應該不到1%將近3%現在是調到3%的總體增加我覺得這個要講清楚那是基房的部分對啊我想說這個我一看就說為什麼AI發展就需要這個3倍的電力所以是指基房的部分基房的部分全部的電力來講就增加1%全部電力從昨天經濟部出來的是總體會增加3%"},{"start":114.604,"end":114.905,"text":"﹚李坤城"},{"start":138.74,"end":138.94,"text":"是這樣的喔﹗"},{"start":166.284,"end":190.209,"text":"在歐盟來看的話第一個你的核廢料必須要有一個良好的儲存是良好的儲存那還是你要找到最終的這個處置的地方對最終處置場然後呢所以要講清楚喔你要儲存現在比如說現在核廢料也是有暫時的儲存啊比如說放在新北啊阿跟找到這個最終的這個處置場是兩個不一樣的概念喔對對也因此其實歐盟到現在還沒有還沒有核准過綠能"},{"start":191.998,"end":209.967,"text":"對阿,因為現在這個核電還不算是綠電嗎?它不算綠電,它只是低碳,它不是綠電。對阿,我們的R1的100裡面百分之百用再生能源也沒有包括核電嘛,對不對?也沒有包括,因為它不是再生能源。它不是再生能源。對。它也沒辦法找到最終的組織廠啦。對。好,那再請教一下。它找到也不會是再生能源。好。"},{"start":211.356,"end":234.732,"text":"國民黨提出有關花東的三個法案這三個法案都沒有經過大家合理的討論兩分鐘之內就通過大概上兆的兩兆以上的法案包含花東快還有環島高速鐵路還有國六東延花蓮請問一下主委在國發會的規劃裡面"},{"start":238.536,"end":249.513,"text":"我看到你們花東有推動花東離島地區永續發展那我問一下主委對於三大乾坤建設的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":251.356,"end":269.375,"text":"這個部份是交通的專業,我們沒有這個專業去評估,我們的做法是要他設上的。但是他也是在國發會裡面對於花東的建設裡面,國民黨認為說如果沒有這三個交通建設,花東就沒辦法發展,那我是問說這個國發會的態度。"},{"start":272.076,"end":274.819,"text":"目前至少他沒有可行性的研究沒有環境影響評估當然在委員會沒有實施討論"},{"start":291.079,"end":317.595,"text":"當然交通部會在做這個專業性評估那我只是就教這一個主委就是說在國發會的這一個這個施政的這一個方向裡面交通對於花東來講它不是唯一發展的必要性交通很重要但是對於花東有更多的一些資源投入進去可以促進花東的發展那如果像這一種這一個三大交通建設第一個"},{"start":318.155,"end":322.497,"text":"我還是覺得可惜性評估一定要專業的交通部來做以後然後也要有一個很完整的環境評估然後再經過討論然後才會有機會來"},{"start":344.288,"end":344.309,"text":"來探討"},{"start":365.511,"end":376.537,"text":"對我們來講花東的建設很重要但是這個第一個是淺坑法案第二個對於花東的這個環境自然人文都會造成影響那我請這個主委要多加考慮好不好是好謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba94c9f6d5d7df023c8c05f44c04a464dbbeba37a180c9b1cd707ab4d4785160245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:08:34 - 11:16:37","影片長度":"00:08:03","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":483,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":23,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-23"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:16:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:08:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":395,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時8分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好，好久不見。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好，好久不見。"],["麥委員玉珍：我還記得你當市長的時候，我們共同去推東協廣場正式成立。"],["林部長佳龍：對呀，現在是觀光景點了。"],["麥委員玉珍：是。要請教部長一下，2016年新南向政策推廣到現在，你覺得跟哪個國家推廣得最好？"],["林部長佳龍：越南很好。"],["麥委員玉珍：越南好……"],["林部長佳龍：其他當然……18個國家中，其實越南、泰國應該都算是發展得很好。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝部長。我們都知道臺灣與越南的交流不只是投資，合作交流、教育、文化、醫療方面還有很大的潛力可以再發展。部長知道現在越南來臺灣投資、其他國家來投資、臺灣要到越南投資的有多少人？"],["林部長佳龍：我們臺灣到越南投資喔？臺商會就很多了，我想他們來的，單單這兩年有關留學生前後就將近一、兩萬人以上，我們去的也超過。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，所以觀光的發展、經濟的發展、兩國貿易的發展都非常密切，但是在觀光和人員交流受到了簽證的限制，不管是從越南來這邊、還是臺商過去那邊，都是兩國之間的合作，但是因為沒有開放免簽證，影響旅遊業或者投資，造成雙方的合作機會就減少。目前雙邊都沒有開放免簽，而越南為了吸引觀光客，在今年年初的時候就開放免簽證，有許多國家被納入，包含我們鄰近的國家日本和南韓，但可惜我們臺灣並沒有納入這個名單，雖然越南是南向政策推動最好的國家，但是我們沒有被納入，所以事後我方是不是可以跟越南那邊積極爭取雙方的互惠免簽證，有沒有這樣子的規劃？"],["林部長佳龍：當然，我們現在有觀宏專案，越南觀光客來還是有開放一些。先前疫情期間越南比較緊縮，疫情後也有一些開放，他們現在也有電子簽。臺越的關係只會越來越發展，因為越南現在投資的臺商很多，特別是新增在北越的部分有供應鏈的移轉，所以我們會跟越方來談，秉持互惠、對等的原則。其實有人流才有金流，才有各種的交流。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，沒錯，人民富有，國家才興旺。"],["林部長佳龍：對，而且不管是婚姻或者是工作，還是留學，我想臺越之間會越來越蓬勃發展。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，所以部長有沒有要去爭取越南跟臺灣有部分的免簽，或者是投資的？就像我嫁來臺灣的時候有一本5年的簽證，我隨時可以飛來飛去，連我小孩跟先生都有，所以我們是不是要去爭取雙方有不同的機制、不同的身分去做免簽證？這樣子對兩邊的投資都很有幫助，部長未來有沒有這樣子的規劃？"],["林部長佳龍：有，這是我們的目標，要來積極地推動。"],["麥委員玉珍：太好了，謝謝部長。謝謝部長對雙方貿易的支持。再來，大家最注重的就是不管嫁到哪裡，我們都希望要孝順父母，像我們來自東南亞和大陸地區的配偶，都希望能讓父母來臺，包括觀光的部分或者探親的部分。像我們越南只有直系親屬的父母才可以來探親，其他諸如兄弟姊妹都不能來探親；還有來探親最多只有3個月，除非我們有生孩子，才可以延長至6個月。關於探親的部分，部長可不可以讓我們的簽證延長？就像我們從越南嫁到美國，美國給我們父母是一本簽證2年，隨時都可以飛來飛去。為了減少新住民家庭的經濟壓力，讓他們的父母能夠來臺探親，是不是要給他們一本簽證，不要限制3個月？限制3個月就變成來探親的人減少了，又會導致大家滯留。還有，只要我們嫁到美國就有依親的簽證，我們臺灣也很注重孝順，不管去哪裡都要孝順，是不是這樣子？所以我們希望未來部長可以開放讓我們父母來臺灣的簽證延長，免簽證是最好了，但是至少讓簽證可以延長。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為我們都知道百善孝為先，不管去任何國家，在臺灣也一樣，都要奉養父母，所以這個部分是不是部長可以給我們的……"],["林部長佳龍：好，大方向上臺灣要跟包括新南向國家的交流，尤其是以人為本，這個一定會逐漸地在出入境及居留、甚至移民上，在確保我們安全之下，因為也有一些脫法的事故，但是在這種情況之下，他來這邊不管是留學、工作、移民，甚至是整個家庭來依親，臺灣在這方面應該是要走向與新南向國家有更多的交流，這在行政院也有跨部會處理，包括人才和移民政策，我們也會提出來。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝部長。部長說大家都能全家移民，但是現在連我們的父母都不行，所以這個部分要拜託部長幫我們。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們會來檢視。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝部長。"],["主席：接下來請賴委員士葆上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.544718750000001,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.202843750000001,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.177218750000002,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.430343750000002,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.18971875,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.859718750000003,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":16.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.24346875,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.30659375,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.28346875,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.71784375,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.15221875,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.47284375,"end":44.665343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.13784375,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.55409375,"end":54.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.86596875,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.84034375,"end":59.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.02909375,"end":75.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.40721875,"end":78.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.46596875,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.41909375,"end":91.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.69596875,"end":172.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.48346875,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.37784375,"end":129.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.71534375000002,"end":129.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.76596875,"end":129.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.01659375,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.28721875000002,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.76346875000002,"end":214.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.38284375,"end":178.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.72034375,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.88846875000002,"end":183.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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委員好好久不見還記得你當市長的時候我們共同去推我們的東協廣場正式成立對啊觀光景點的現在是是是是所以要請教部長一下在2016年新南向政策推廣到現在是覺得跟哪個國家是推廣最好"},{"start":32.796,"end":44.434,"text":"越南很好啦,其他當然18個國家,越南、泰國應該都算是發展得很好。"},{"start":45.937,"end":64.454,"text":"謝謝部長。對,我們都知道就是臺灣與越南交流不只是投資,還有就是合作交流,還有就是交易、文化,還有醫療的方面,還有很大的潛力可以再發展,因為我們現在在越南"},{"start":66.095,"end":91.417,"text":"我們部長知道說我們現在在越南的來臺灣投資還有其他國家來投資還有我們臺灣要到越南投資的有多少人我們臺灣到越南投資喔臺商會就很多啦這個真的是應該我想他們來的是當然這兩年的有關留學生這樣前後就將近一兩萬人以上啊我們去的也超過啊"},{"start":92.598,"end":119.398,"text":"所以說這樣就是我們特別觀光的發展還有經濟的發展兩國的貿易的發展都是非常密切的所以在觀光和人的就是這邊的簽證的限制不管是從越南來這邊還是說我們台商過去那一邊都是兩國的之間的合作但是因為沒有開放的簽證所以呢"},{"start":120.338,"end":128.505,"text":"美國出境就是旅遊業或者是我們的投資所以造成雙方的合作機會就變減少但是目前雙邊都有開放免簽越南就是為了吸引觀光客就是在今年年初的時候就開放免簽證有許多國家有被納入包含我們的鄰近的國家就是日本還有南韓"},{"start":149,"end":165.013,"text":"但可惜我們臺灣並沒有納入這個名單所以南向政策推也是最好的但是沒有納入所以希望說事後我方是不是可以維持就是我們跟越南那邊就是積極爭取就是說雙方的互惠、免簽證有沒有這樣子的規劃"},{"start":172.879,"end":190.772,"text":"是,當然我們現在有觀紅專案,越南觀光客來還是有嘛,有開放一些那先前疫情期間越南比較緊縮,疫情後也有一些開放那當然他們現在也有電子簽,這當然涉及到因為台越的關係只會越來越發展"},{"start":192.453,"end":214.388,"text":"因為在越南現在投資的台商很多特別是在新增在北越的部分那個供應鏈的移轉所以我們會跟越方來談秉持互惠對等的原則其實有人流才有金流才有各種的交流"},{"start":216.007,"end":218.809,"text":"所以部長有沒有說要去爭取就是我們就是"},{"start":232.82,"end":242.949,"text":"越南跟臺灣有就是部分的免簽或者是投資的就像我們越南在臺灣就是要我我家來臺灣我有一本五年的簽證我是隨時可以飛來飛去連我小孩跟先生都有所以我想說我們是不是說我們要去爭取的雙方有這樣子的不同的就是機制不同的"},{"start":259.764,"end":271.198,"text":"的那個身份來去做就是免簽證這樣子的話對兩邊的投資都很有幫助啦我們部長有沒有這樣子的未來的規劃"},{"start":272.185,"end":297.999,"text":"有這是我們的目標要來聚集的推動好謝謝我們的部長就是因為呢就是雙方的貿易謝謝部長的支持再來就是我們大家最注重的就是不管嫁到哪裡我們都希望就是要有孝順我們最重要的是孝順父母但是呢我們像我們的東南亞還有我們的"},{"start":300.56,"end":328.462,"text":"大陸地區都是說我們要來就是讓父母來台觀光的部分或者探親的部分就像我們越南來探親只有直親就是父母才可以來探親其他兄弟姐妹都不能來探親還有來探親只有三個月最多三個月只要說我們是因為有生孩子在延長就是六個月所以"},{"start":329.92,"end":337.943,"text":"這樣子的探親的部分是不是可以部長這邊讓我們的簽證可以去延長就像我們從越南嫁到美國美國給我們的是一本父母給父母一個一本簽證兩年隨時都可以飛來飛去所以我們為了要減少經濟的壓力我們新住民的家庭"},{"start":355.25,"end":382.763,"text":"讓他們的父母來臺探親是不是要給他們一本簽證不要說限制三個月你限制三個月變成大家來探親的人就變減少又會導致大家就是會滴流這樣子還有就是美國只要你們嫁到美國還有就是一親的簽證因為我們臺灣也是很注重孝順不管你去哪裡都要孝順"},{"start":383.703,"end":398.968,"text":"是不是這樣子所以我們希望說未來是不是說我們部長這邊可以發放就是讓我們的父母可以來臺灣就是簽證延長就是說免簽證是最好了但是說我們簽證可以去延長這個部分因為我們都知道說百善孝為先不管你去任何國家在臺灣一樣也是都要養父母"},{"start":418.143,"end":435.397,"text":"大方向臺灣要跟這個包括新南向國家的交流尤其是這個以人為本這個是一定是會逐漸的在出入境還有拘留甚至移民上"},{"start":436.758,"end":459.912,"text":"在確保我們安全因為也有一些拖把的事故但是在這種情況之下他來這邊不管是留學工作移民甚至他整個家庭來依親我想台灣是一個應該是在這個方面是要走向跟新南向國家更多的交流"},{"start":460.785,"end":478.815,"text":"那這個是在行政院也有跨部會在處理包括人才跟移民的政策我們也會提出來是部長是說大家都有來移民全家但是我們現在連我們的父母都不行所以這個部分就是要拜託我們的部長幫我們去我們會來檢視好 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各位與會的 各位先進 大家好我們今天的主題是來討論108課綱實施檢討當然我們今年是幾年呢 是113年所以我們在108課綱實施了5年之後我們還在檢討108課綱也許明年還要繼續檢討 後年還要繼續檢討也許到了117年還要檢討也許我們講的問題是一模一樣但是1011課綱就要實施了"},{"start":31.983,"end":58.302,"text":"這就是我覺得最可悲的地方就是每一年不斷的有學者 老師 學生各界的專家先進提出108課綱的各種問題但是教育部有沒有針對大家的意見去做檢討 去做改善看不到啊所以每年都檢討嘛檢討的目的是為了改進嘛但請教一下教育部檢討的時候你改進了什麼這是我覺得最大的問題啊"},{"start":59.463,"end":76.328,"text":"我在參加教育文化委員會平常我也跟非常多的老師跟很多學生我們在聊108課綱大家講的東西跟我在幾年前看到的東西一模一樣108課綱最大的問題是他把很多必修課減少了減少四分之一叫很多老師去開選修課"},{"start":77.788,"end":78.109,"text":"公聽委員．葉元之"},{"start":92.449,"end":92.509,"text":"主席"},{"start":123.589,"end":151.219,"text":"他的教課時數沒有檢討情況之下增加了改作業的時間還要備課造成老師壓力變大教學品質下降那請問一下教育部不知道這些問題嗎改善了什麼更不要說啦把必修課的時間去了四分之一之後造成必修課專業知識的低落同時也影響到高教我問很多大學的老師我問他們說現在的少子化的問題"},{"start":152.796,"end":178.977,"text":"你們怎麼解決他說我們現在大學最重要就是要接住學生什麼叫接住學生就是說讓這些學生進來之後不要因為學習的挫折而離開大學那為什麼會有學習的挫折呢因為當他們108課綱的學生進到大學之後他發現我讀這個理工科的怎麼我的物理跟不上我的微積分跟不上"},{"start":179.858,"end":203.665,"text":"所以我感到挫折我發現說是不是我好像不適合這個學系我要離開所以這些學系的老師開始針對這些學生去做了解發現原來是過去108課綱改變結果讓他們該學的沒有學到所以大學怎麼做呢前兩天我也在問教育部長他來自於高教他說所以高教有"},{"start":204.765,"end":227.34,"text":"有很多大學有開補救教學就是讓這些高中上來的學生可以再學習一下高中應該教的知識那我就跟他說這就是問題啊那為什麼我們高中應該教的人家不會還要到大學要補救咧所以講了這麼多的問題那我不知道說這個不斷的重複不斷的repeat請問一下教育部你改了什麼"},{"start":229.092,"end":254.167,"text":"學習歷程檔案只要我們平常只要出去跟家長有碰面大家全部都是在搖頭啊學習歷程檔案裡面有很多問題啊我有看到很多學生團體也提出學習歷程檔案的問題學習歷程檔案是請大家自我探索然後研究報告結果很多高一高二自我探索的方向不代表是他高三後來決定要讀的方向產生極大的焦慮"},{"start":255.248,"end":266.008,"text":"那更不要講說學習歷程檔案有一些比較有資源的人外包大家只要上網去看就一堆那種外包廠商在幫人家製作學習歷程檔案那這樣公平嗎"},{"start":267.133,"end":288.245,"text":"我的選區板橋高中裡面的老師告訴我他們有一半以上學生是不處理學習歷程檔案他們是專心去面對考試這樣子也達不到任何的效果啊然後再來108課綱必修課減少的原因造成大家讀一些學科失去興趣我就講歷史課我現在不再跟大家佔什麼意識形態"},{"start":289.306,"end":304.381,"text":"光是大家如果有去看那個歷史課的課本你就知道現在因為時數減少關係所以課文歷史的內容少得可憐學生最後只有幹嘛只有記那個年份以及記那個年份發生的大事記"},{"start":305.282,"end":324.692,"text":"沒有故事沒有脈絡學生讀歷史感覺索然無味變成一個硬背的課程他沒有辦法從歷史裡面得到任何的啟發對他人生未來他沒有得到任何的借鏡這就是我們歷史去時數減少的結果更不要講了"},{"start":325.712,"end":342.78,"text":"前兩天我有一個同學跟我講說他的小孩是七年級他說爸爸原來我昨天才發現中華民國統治過整個中華大陸他很驚訝那更多的小朋友呢他以為我們中華民國是從民國38年開始的所以我們中華民國一出生就38歲了"},{"start":347.932,"end":375.138,"text":"那這些都不是問題嗎這不要講什麼去中化不去中化光是把歷史搞到這麼破碎把歷史搞到讓大家對歷史產生這麼多誤解就有問題嘛所以我覺得因為今天很多專家學者都在現場大家還有學生同學我也看到很多同學在現場同學你們有那個團體你們的報告我都有看那我也看到了每次教育部派在現場他是怎麼敷衍你們的"},{"start":377.107,"end":402.945,"text":"小孩子好棒 你們好棒但是對於你講的意見沒有回應就是稱讚你好棒把同學很呼嚨你稱讚我好了我就可以不用你就不用回應我的意見同學現在都很聰明同學那麼積極犧牲自己課外休閒的時間願意為課綱盡一分力結果遇到蠻憨的政府這是我覺得最可悲的地方所以我不再針對"},{"start":404.306,"end":426.465,"text":"英巴克綱裡面：方方面面各種問題我提出建議 因為大家都講非常多我現在就利用這個公聽會我嚴正的要求我們教育部單位你要正視大家所提出的問題去解決否則今年是113年明年114年我們還是一樣在公聽會大家把所有問題重新再講一遍那這個公聽會是沒有意義的 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba7638e43aea75a06c1766e5648a1e6b71beba37a180c9b1cd09fd7cf4a47809cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"11:06:03 - 11:12:00","影片長度":"00:05:57","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":357,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:12:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:06:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":449,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（11時6分）謝謝主席。有請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：羅委員早。"],["羅委員美玲：主委早。主委，國發會在2022年有訂下一個目標，在2030年我們要增加19萬僑外生留在臺灣工作。我們來看過去10年，從2014年到2023年，確確實實僑外生每一年的留臺率是逐年提高，可是距離2030年的目標可能還很遠，因為國發會是在2022年的時候訂下目標，我們看2022年、2023年，這兩年留下來的僑外生人數大約是六千一百多人左右，距離2030年的目標年大概還有六年多的時間，也就是如果要達到19萬僑外生留臺的話，每一年大概留在臺灣的僑外生人數必須要有3萬人左右。這不是喊一喊這個人數就會出來了，我想請教國發會，以目前的人數有可能在未來的六年多達標嗎？請問國發會，有沒有跟相關單位，像僑委會、勞動部討論過相關的問題？主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個細節，我能不能請我們同仁先代為回答，我再補充？"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好。"],["謝處長佳宜：謝謝委員關心。有關僑外生留臺的目標，前幾年我們是優先擴大吸引僑外生來臺，我們擴增來源達三倍的量能，這個部分將來我們會陸續再去提高，透過我們放寬各項留臺的相關規定，會提高他留臺的誘因，在這個部分，我們希望從現行的48%會提高到6至7成，這樣有助於我們在2030達到19萬的目標。"],["羅委員美玲：所以你們對這個目標是有信心的，對不對？"],["謝處長佳宜：是、是！"],["羅委員美玲：好，當然僑外生留臺其實是經過兩個管道，一個是一般外專人士在臺工作的辦法，再來就是僑外生的評點制，這兩個制度其實都有門檻，譬如說，外專人才好了，它有一個薪資門檻是4萬7,971元，所以有很多不符合、想要走這一條路的人，其實很多僑外生因為拿不到這個薪資，只好轉而走評點制，可是評點制其實也有限制，譬如說評點制每一年的人數、員額限制有一個天花板，就是7,000人。我想再請教國發會，未來這兩個可能就是所謂比較重點式的限制，我們會拿掉嗎？評點制的人數限制及薪資的門檻，我們會拿掉嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這點已經有共識，會拿掉。"],["羅委員美玲：是，會拿掉？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，會取消上限。"],["羅委員美玲：以後薪資門檻沒有上限，對不對？"],["謝處長佳宜：是配額沒有上限。"],["羅委員美玲：配額7,000沒有上限，那薪資門檻呢？以後呢？還有僑外生的評點制，它還有產業別的限制，在產業的這部分有沒有要拿掉呢？"],["謝處長佳宜：目前我們對這些相關的規定都在檢討中，包括勞動部也有在評估，這個部分我們其實都有在納入研議中，委員剛剛提到的資本額、營業額……"],["羅委員美玲：我想瞭解的是勞動部目前的想法、未來想要走的方向是哪一些？你們目前說已經有跟勞動部這邊做過討論了，請問勞動部這邊的態度是什麼？"],["謝處長佳宜：因為除了資本額，雖然雇主有資本額、營業額這個限制，其實我們都還有會商機制，所以如果雇主不符合資本額、營業額的規定，其實現行就有會商機制可以彈性來處理。至於我們是不是要進一步來……"],["羅委員美玲：目前有彈性來處理嗎？"],["謝處長佳宜：對，有。"],["羅委員美玲：因為過去像資本額的話必須要500萬元以上的企業才有嘛！可是500萬元以上的企業其實占比只有18%，所以有些僑外生想留下來，可是問題是那個雇主的公司資本額就不足，所以你們彈性的作法是怎麼樣的作法呢？"],["謝處長佳宜：對，因為是可以由廠商提出申請，然後就是跨部會的會商，用個案許可的方式，所以其實……"],["羅委員美玲：過去就已經有在進行當中？"],["謝處長佳宜：對，有……"],["羅委員美玲：可是你知道嗎？像你們這樣的說法，僑外生很多都不知道，他們只看到這個就說公司資本額不足，所以我就不符合資格。"],["謝處長佳宜：對，這個部分我們……"],["羅委員美玲：所以這個部分如果說過去有在做，應該要多加宣導，可是我們所瞭解的是過去很多僑外生，我們都不知道你們有所謂的彈性作法。"],["謝處長佳宜：是，我們都會加強來宣導。"],["羅委員美玲：好，我也知道像勞動部、僑委會其實最近都有很密集地在討論僑外生的鬆綁政策，我在想國發會這邊有沒有瞭解我們的進程，我們大概是什麼時候會有進一步的政策修訂，請問，有嗎？"],["謝處長佳宜：我們將來會有跨部會的協商平台繼續來推動相關的法令鬆綁。"],["羅委員美玲：所以鬆綁政策在今年的話就會有一個結論是不是？"],["謝處長佳宜：是，我們人才專法今年也會推動修法的工作，這個部分都會來檢討。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：好，謝謝，謝謝羅美玲委員。接下來我們請李坤城委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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有請劉主委羅委員長"},{"start":20.497,"end":41.823,"text":"各位國發會在2022年的時候有定下一個目標就是在2030年我們要增加19萬的僑外生留在臺灣工作我們來看過去10年從2014年到2023年確確實實僑外生每一年留台的這個留台率是逐年的提高可是距離我們2023年的這個目標可能還很遠"},{"start":48.025,"end":61.01,"text":"美國發會在2022年的時候定下目標我們看2022年2023年每一年這兩年留下來的這個橋外生的人數呢大約是6100多人左右好那我們剩下我們的"},{"start":63.291,"end":85.503,"text":"在2023年這個目標年大概還有6年多的時間也就是說如果要達到這19萬強外生要留台的話大概每一年留在台灣的強外生人數必須要有3萬人左右我想請問國發會這不是喊一喊就有這個人數就出來了我想請教一下以目前的這個人數有可能"},{"start":86.443,"end":90.827,"text":"在未來的6年多就達標嗎?請問國發會有沒有跟相關單位像僑委會、勞動部來討論過相關的問題?這個細節我能不能請我們同仁先講我再補會待回答我再補充"},{"start":107.601,"end":128.795,"text":"謝謝委員關心有關喬外森流台的目標我們是優先是擴大我們前幾年是擴大了吸引喬外森來台我們擴增來源三倍的量能但這個部分將來他會陸續我們再提高他透過我們各項的一個流台的相關規定的放寬會提高他的流台的誘因"},{"start":129.335,"end":129.375,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":146.119,"end":174.671,"text":"橋外生流台其實是經過兩個管道嘛好一個是一般外專人是在台工作的這個辦法那再來就是橋外生的這個評點制好那這兩個制度其實都有門檻好譬如說外專人才好了他有一個薪資門檻是47971元所以有很多不符合想要走這一條的其實很多橋外生因為拿不到這個薪資只好轉而走這個"},{"start":175.771,"end":176.872,"text":"國發會議員委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":194.668,"end":223.574,"text":"平臉制的人數限制還有這個薪資的這個門檻我們會拿掉嗎?這點已經有公司會拿掉會拿掉?對所以以後沒有薪資沒有上限就對薪資門檻沒有上限對不對?配額沒有上限配額沒有配額期限沒有上限那個薪資呢?薪資門檻呢?因為畢竟那以後呢那還有這個那個喬壞森的這平臉制他還有產業別嘛他還有產業別的限制那產業的這部分有沒有要拿掉呢?"},{"start":224.952,"end":245.498,"text":"目前我們這些相關的都在檢討中包括那個勞動部也有在評估這個部分我們其實都有在納入研議中委員剛剛提到我想了解說勞動部目前他的這個他的這個想法他的這個未來想要走的方向是哪些你們目前說已經有跟勞動部這邊做過討論了那請問勞動部這邊他的態度是什麼"},{"start":250.649,"end":251.33,"text":"目前有彈性來處理嗎?"},{"start":269.16,"end":269.32,"text":"對,有有"},{"start":284.93,"end":300.525,"text":"所以你們彈性的做法是怎樣的做法呢?對,因為是可以由那個廠商他提出申請然後就是跨部會這樣的會商用個案許可的方式所以過去就已經有在進行當中可是你知道嗎?像你們這樣的說法橋外生很多都不知道"},{"start":301.045,"end":307.552,"text":"他們只看到這個就是說公司資本額不足所以我就不符合資格所以這個部分如果過去有在做應該多加宣導可是我們所瞭解的是過去很多橋外生我們都不知道說你們有所謂的彈性的做法我們這個會加強來宣導"},{"start":318.024,"end":318.064,"text":"稍後會議會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":338.166,"end":338.246,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"153360","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba572b60dd80fa12984869c0f3e297fc60beba37a180c9b1cd46d6c6507aabb8eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:02:25 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11:08:37","影片長度":"00:06:12","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":372,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-28"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:08:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T11:02:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時3分）謝謝主席，謝謝思瑤委員。我們先請衛福部保護司。"],["主席：請保護司。"],["林視察春燕：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：你是視察嘛！我就快速跟衛福部討論一下，我們辦公室一直在關心，對於很多家長來說，孩子們會被送到各式各樣的學習機構，不管是所謂的補習班、夏令營、冬令營，或者是很多學校的社團課程，甚至是學校的校隊，這麼多孩子們會去學習的地方，但是在這些場域當中，這裡面的大人是不是令家長感到放心的？所以我們一直跟衛福部追一鍵查詢這件事情對不對？如果你很清楚，我們往下看下一頁。我們一直在問，只要是違反相關兒少權法的公布姓名相關的時效性必須要保持，所以我們之前從學校端做了解決，我們4月也開了記者會。但是我現在要問的是，跟司法有關的，只要是相關的大人，他的案件還在上訴的期限當中，但是衛福部如果沒有快速追蹤到相關加害人的姓名，於是他就不會被公布出來在CRC的網站，對不對？目前是這樣。可是我們看到，以各個縣市政府，其實有一些縣市政府是有積極的作為，例如新北市跆拳道教練，當時有個呂教練性侵學員，在今年1月司法一審被判29年，但是這個人5月提出上訴，可是在5月提出上訴之前，3月的時候新北市政府就自己先立刻做出行政處分，把這個姓名公布在CRC的網站。也就是只要縣市政府有所作為，只要衛福部有所作為，相關加害者的姓名，他就算還在司法上訴期當中，他應該都要先即時公布，對這個部分我想要知道衛福部的態度是什麼？"],["林視察春燕：目前如委員所講的，地方政府的執行上面是有一些落差，我們近期也會再找地方政府針對這個部分來檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：就是除了之前我剛剛提到的教育部之外，目前在這個司法階段，對於這些加害者，拜託你們也要積極，這個部分多久以內可以有相關的報告給我辦公室？"],["林視察春燕：因為我們是預計大概6月會找地方政府來開會……"],["陳委員培瑜：6月才要開會喔？所以在6月之前，很多這種加害者他還在不斷不斷上訴過程當中，可是孩子們已經要被送去夏令營了，現在很多家長都在報夏令營了，我們根本就不知道這些夏令營當中有沒有隱藏這些加害者，然後甚至他在上訴期間當中，家長根本不知道耶，你真的確定要到6月嗎？之前這個題目已經跟你們講很久了，我不是今天第一天提耶！"],["林視察春燕：是，我想我們會儘快來召開這個會議，目前我們本來表定是6月初啦，如果委員提到……"],["陳委員培瑜：如果6月初才跟縣市政府開會，那你們希望多久以內跟他們開完會？開完會之後多久以內你們可以確定他們的相關資料是可以上報到衛福部CRC保護兒少的網站，讓家長可以一鍵查詢，查到這個人正有案件在上訴當中？"],["林視察春燕：是，報告委員，因為這個涉及到地方執行的事項，所以我們跟地方政府開會……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我們上次CRC的那個事情，你們不是說有些事情你們會收回來衛福部自己處理嗎？"],["林視察春燕：是，公告的行政層面。那我是說就認定上面，因為有一些是涉及到刑事的案件，他如果是在司法的程序當中，那可能到底要到什麼樣的階段是地方政府可以做一個公告，我想這個還是必須要跟地方政府討論，大家有一個共識。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們這邊之前有跟司法系統討論過這個問題了嗎？"],["林視察春燕：因為進入到司法的程序，如果說等到比如一審判決確定了，我們還要再跟司法機關協調，是不是也可以把判決書給我們，我們才會知道這個案子在……"],["陳委員培瑜：我記得這個會議我們辦公室之前有跟司法系統追過，他們好像也沒有肯認這件事情，你們是不是應該要更積極告訴他們？在行政裁罰上你們確實可以先做出相關的動作。"],["林視察春燕：是，所以我說我們大概是6月初已經排定了會議，要跟地方政府來就這個事情做討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我再幫您整理一次。在所謂一鍵式查詢的系統上，對家長來說，我如果就只認衛福部CRC這個網站，當我要把我的小孩送去某些營隊的時候，我要確保營隊裡面的大人過去是不是有加害於兒少的經驗，不管是性侵、性霸凌或是不當體罰，所以我到衛福部的網站上，你們現在開始蒐集的有幼教的資料，有教育部的資料，還有衛福部在行政裁罰上的資料，可是在司法這端確實漏掉了，對吧？如果他上訴的時間是5年、10年，而這5年、10年他還在民間繼續教課，繼續擔任加害者的身分，陪在很多小孩身邊，我相信這是很多家長不樂見的。當然我知道過去衛福部從來沒有想過這件事情，可是我們就民間觀點來看，今天我的時間就全部放在這個題目上，所以我們之後會積極的要求衛福部跟司法或是教育系統，甚至跟各縣市政府在這件事情上，必須要積極把這個資料補齊起來，如果還在不斷不斷上訴期間，到底要做到什麼階段、公告到什麼階段才可以公告？我覺得這個事情大家要有一個共識，好不好？"],["林視察春燕：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝衛福部、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在先處理臨時提案。","臨時提案共1案，請宣讀。","案由：","稽之司法院今日（5月30日）天報告「肆、訂定少年矯正學校特殊事件通報因應措施」，於110年5月28日以秘台廳少家一字第1100016123號函予各院施行。參考措施中包含：","1.建置及維護與少年矯正學校間之特殊事件聯繫窗口，及時瞭解少年所發生之特殊事件及矯正學校初步處理情形；","2.強化法院間對矯正學校特殊事件之橫向聯繫，達到法院間及法院與矯正學校間之資訊不漏接目的，確實掌握少年在校之動態；","3.要求各少年保護官於接獲通知後應進行特殊事件內容之確認，並進行相關之處理（包含確認有無法定通報事項、與矯正學校或少年家長聯繫、派員訪視或進行視訊、將特殊事件處理情形陳報予督導長官及評估辦理院內或院際間之座談或研商會議）。","然，報告中未提及「特殊事件」之判斷標準為何？後續之評估研商會議開過幾次？會議結論為何？且113年3月27日之敦品中學脫序事件是否屬於特殊事件？敦品中學有無通報？本件之研商會議結論又為何？","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求司法院會同法務部，於兩個月內，提供敦品中學113年3月27日脫序事件之（去識別化）評估研商報告，內容須併含：","1.「特殊事件」之判斷標準、本次脫序事件之發生原因檢討。","2.改制矯正學校後，面對大型脫序行為，警力配置該如何因應；又該如何預防管理；各管理職權責如何劃分，是否有「有權無責」之情形。","3.如何精進掌握少年在校動態，進而強化輔導。","以充分落實法院與矯正學校間之資訊不漏接及達到協助少年健全自我成長之目的。","提案人：吳宗憲","連署人：黃國昌　　謝龍介"],["主席：現在麻煩羅智強委員代理主席，我做提案說明。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員提案說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝主席。有關這個部分，主要是我們看了今天司法院的報告，有關報告第四點，訂定少年矯正學校特殊事件通報因應措施，在第110001612號函裡面，參考措施只有包括到建置一些特殊事件的聯絡窗口，還有強化法案跟矯正學校的橫向聯繫，以及校保官在接獲通知後進行特殊事項的確認。重點是只有這幾個，但是報告的內容並沒有提及到對特殊事項的判斷標準是什麼、評估會議到底開過幾次，以及會議的結論是什麼。還有今年3月27日的敦品中學脫序事件是不是屬於特殊的事件？敦品中學有無通報？或者是這一次的研商會議的結論到底又是如何？這些部分並沒有清楚的說明，所以我希望能夠作成決議，要求司法院跟法務部共同於兩個月內提供敦品中學113年3月27日脫序事件去識別化的評估研商報告，內容必須含有特殊事件的判斷標準，還有本次脫序事件的發生主要原因的檢討，以及改制矯正學校後，面對大型脫序事件，警力應該怎麼樣的配置跟因應，怎麼樣的預防管理，還有這個管理職權如何劃分，有沒有有權無責的情況發生，還有就是精進掌握少年在校動態，進而能夠加強的輔導。我的提案主要的目的如上，謝謝各位。"],["主席：針對臨時提案，請問機關有無意見或說明？請秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：主席、委員，沒有意見，就剛剛這個提案沒有意見。"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，有關您提到的特殊事件，這部分是由法務部矯正署，我們會跟他們會商特殊事件什麼時候要通報，矯正機關會通報給我們法院端，我們會依照少年矯正教育實施通則跟設置準則，我們會去考核這些執行的事項，因為這些部分的執行狀況，我們會共同跟法務部矯正署署長就這部分做處理。是不是也請部長說明一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，尊重委員的提案，法務部沒有意見。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝，我剛剛是有同意文字的部分照修改後，原本是「司法院會同法務部」，我是覺得OK，就是「司法院與法務部共同」這樣，這個我可以接受。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席，我是不是可以詢問一下？"],["主席：請莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：召委這個提案，其實我是同意啦，但是還是要釐清一下，整件函是司法院發的，但業務到底是誰的？看起來是法務部的。"],["謝廳長靜慧：是，跟委員報告，因為我們要發函去促請法官，他發了執行指揮書之後，也要去考核執行的狀況，所以我們是促請要求法官要去做這樣一個業務執行的考核，但是整個的主政，譬如我們孩子送進矯正學校了，那整個學校的矯正教育，包含如果發生一些譬如之前的籃球事件、敦品中學這個事件，他們怎麼樣處理？他們內部就有一個SOP去進行這方面的處理，這個事件如果列為通報事件，就會用特殊事件去通知指揮執行的法院。譬如這裡面其實帶頭的有兩個少年，這兩個少年假設一個是新北發的執行指揮書，那就會通報給新北少年法庭，法官依照這個部分就會去考核，到底感化教育的執行有沒有依照他的個別處遇去執行他的感化教育？"],["莊委員瑞雄：好吧，你們沒有意見，我也沒有意見，我其實最主要是把整個權責做一個釐清而已。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這個部分我是覺得司法院也有督導責任，也不能說如果法務部沒有盡到責任，司法院就認為不關我的事，我想也不是這樣。"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，過去其實監察院也有發生很多，就是去彈劾一些矯正機關對少年的不當對待，我們的參考措施也是因為這樣而去強化這些孩子在少觀所裡面要得到合理對待，甚至是矯正教育的對待。以上。"],["吳委員宗憲：這部分就麻煩你們照我們臨時提案去處理，因為有很多基層的少保官跟社工都跟我們抱怨，這個是很多機關混雜在一起，結果現在也是誰做什麼或是預算怎麼編列其實都一團亂，這是基層跟我說的。"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，現在南北其實就只有兩個獨立設置的少觀所，其他大概都是跟監獄合設，所以我們在少觀所跟矯正教育的四所矯正學校，我們都有跟法務部透過院部會談，也都有持續在討論怎麼樣提升這部分的效能。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：如果沒有意見的話，我們把文字修正，原本的臨時提案是「要求司法院會同法務部，於兩個月內」，把文字修正為「要求司法院與法務部共同於兩個月內」，作以上文字修正。如果沒有任何意見，臨時提案第1案依討論後修正之文字通過。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法務部也是要給你們督導？就不一樣的東西，要怎麼讓你們督導？"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：不是督導法務部啦，莊委員，不是督導法務部，是就這個事權的督導，不是這樣啦，拜託！我們都唸法律的，我們一定懂，怎麼會有司法院督導法務部？這種沒有水準的話，我不會講啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：你沒有看到我笑咪咪？我是在說你啦！"],["主席：好啦！謝謝，謝謝學長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你剛才說司法院要督導法務部，法務部會讓司法院督導？法務部那麼凶怎麼可能讓它督導？況且權責也不一樣，對不對？"],["主席：對，所以我們都很清楚，是就這個事件的部分，不是指它督導法務部啦！這麼low的事，我們不可能講這種話啦！學長你誤會了，謝謝學長指教。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.71721875,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.434093750000002,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":19.875968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.90846875,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.36284375,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.71659375,"end":40.767218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.197218750000005,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.024093750000006,"end":48.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.12534375,"end":44.682218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.37409375,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.31034375,"end":51.533468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.22471875,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.23284375,"end":58.806593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.759718750000005,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.71721875,"end":66.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.51409375,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.18409375,"end":73.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.94346875000001,"end":169.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.86096875,"end":178.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.56846875000002,"end":188.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.14909375000002,"end":189.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.65096875,"end":194.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.44784375,"end":212.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.35221875000002,"end":214.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.95096875000002,"end":216.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.38971875000001,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.32159375,"end":227.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.13471875000002,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.19534375,"end":249.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.70096875000002,"end":254.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.28659375,"end":270.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.96346875,"end":274.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.75159375000004,"end":289.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.08284375,"end":300.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.86159375,"end":306.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.26159375000003,"end":367.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.27721875000003,"end":370.67346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.341,"end":18.562,"text":"我沒意見啊,你們要對調我沒有意見啊"},{"start":43.255,"end":46.078,"text":"那我們先請衛福部保護司請保護司"},{"start":75.295,"end":91.095,"text":"林市長,我就快速跟衛福部討論一下我們辦公室一直在關心對於很多家長來說孩子們會被送到各式各樣的學習機構去不管是所謂的補習班、夏令營、冬令營或者是很多學校的社團課程甚至是學校的校隊"},{"start":92.236,"end":92.597,"text":"我們一直在問說"},{"start":108.337,"end":131.443,"text":"只要是違反相關兒少全法的公佈姓名相關的時效性必須要保持所以我們從學校端這邊我們之前做了解決我們司委也開了記者會但是我現在要問跟司法這邊有關的只要是相關的大人他的案件還在上訴的期限當中但是衛福部這邊如果沒有快速追蹤到相關加害人的姓名於是他就不會被公佈出來在CRC的網站對不對"},{"start":131.903,"end":156.479,"text":"目前是這樣那可是我們看到以各個縣市政府他們其實有一些縣市政府是有積極的作為例如說新北市跆拳道教練當時有個呂教練他性侵學員在今年1月司法一審被判29年但是這個人5月提出上訴可是在5月提出上訴之前3月的時候新北市政府就自己先立刻做出行政處分把這個姓名公佈在CRC的網站"},{"start":157.179,"end":176.856,"text":"也就是說只要縣市政府有所作為只要衛福部有所作為相關加害者的姓名他就算還在司法上述期當中他應該都要先及時公佈這個部分衛福部我想要知道你們的態度是什麼目前主委也無言講了就是地方政府的執行上面有一些落差那我們其實近期也會再找地方政府針對這個部分來檢討"},{"start":179.179,"end":188.109,"text":"除了之前我剛剛提到的教育部之外目前在這個司法階段這些加害者拜託你們也要積極那這個部分多久以內可以有相關的報告給我們辦公室"},{"start":190.697,"end":218.389,"text":"因為我們是預計大概6月會找地方政府來開會6月才要開會喔所以在這6月之前很多這種加害者他還在不斷不斷上訴過程當中可是孩子們已經要被送去夏令營了現在很多家長都在報夏令營了我們根本就不知道這些夏令營當中有沒有隱藏這些加害者然後他甚至是在上訴期間當中家長根本不知道欸你真的確定要到6月嗎我們之前這個題目已經跟你們講很久了我不是今天第一天提欸"},{"start":219.489,"end":242.952,"text":"是 那我想我們會盡快召開這個會議目前我們本來表定是6月初啦那這個委員 主委員提到的那如果6月初才跟縣市政府開會那你們希望多久以內跟他們開完會開完會之後多久以內你們可以確定他們的相關資料是可以上報到衛福部CRC保護兒少的網站讓家長可以一鍵查詢查到這個人他正有案件在上訴當中"},{"start":244.289,"end":269.931,"text":"是報告委員因為這個是涉及到地方執行的事項所以我們跟地方政府開會可是我們上次CRC的那個事情你們不是說有些事情你們會收回來衛福部這邊自己處理嗎是公告的這個行政的層面那我是說就認定上面因為有一些是涉及到刑事的案件它如果是在司法的程序當中那可能到底要到什麼樣的階段是地方政府可以做一個公告我想這個還是必須要跟地方政府"},{"start":270.031,"end":273.256,"text":"那所以你們這邊之前有跟司法系統這邊有討論過這個問題了嗎?"},{"start":275.814,"end":279.537,"text":"我記得這個會議我們辦公室之前有跟司法系統追過他們好像也沒有肯認這件事情欸你們是不是應該要更積極告訴他們在行政裁罰上你們確實可以先做出相關的動作"},{"start":301.002,"end":328.404,"text":"是 所以我說我們大概是6月初已經排定了會議要跟地方政府來就這個事情來做討論好 也就是說我再幫您整理一次在所謂一件事查詢的系統上對家長來說我如果就指認衛福部CRC這個網站當我要把我的小孩送去某些營隊的時候我要確保這營隊裡面的大人是不是有過去有加害於兒少的經驗不管是性侵、性霸凌或是不當體罰 對不對所以我到衛福部的網站上所以你們現在開始收集了有幼教的資料"},{"start":328.844,"end":344.244,"text":"有教育部這邊的資料還有衛福部在行政裁罰上的資料可是在司法這段我們確實漏掉了對吧如果他上訴的時間是五年十年而這五年十年他還在民間繼續教課繼續擔任加害者的身份在陪在很多小孩身邊我相信這是很多家長不樂見的"},{"start":345.585,"end":369.954,"text":"當然我知道過去衛福部從來沒有想過這件事情可是我們就民間觀點來看今天我的時間就全部放在這個題目上所以我們之後會積極的要求衛福部跟司法或是教育系統這邊甚至跟各縣市政府在這件事情上必須要積極把這個資料補齊起來那如果還在不斷不斷上訴期間到底要做到什麼階段公告到什麼階段他可以公告我覺得這個事情大家要有一個共識好不好好 謝謝衛福部 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153359","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153359","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba80d54f9f9ff91160ea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cd73ed662baa63b46f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:57:23 - 11:07:47","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":624,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:07:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:57:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時57分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。邀請次長。"],["主席：好，請呂次長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席跟黃健豪委員等22人提出的第二十二條修正條文，次長贊同吧？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，關心長輩是我們共同的課題，總歸長輩對我們國家、對我們家庭都很有貢獻，但我們也一再強調，這個基本上還是社會保險，社會保險還是要大家有能力時，是不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：社會保險大家有能力，但沒能力的時候，政府就要來協助，你來自臺中，最清楚啊！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看臺中盧秀燕市長一上來，老人健保由臺中市政府協助，其實這是一個生活鏈，怎麼去協助到年輕人？如果孩子不用再負擔這個部分，可以放心去工作，這對於我們大臺中來講是幫助很大，我們也希望中央能夠借鏡，所以我們就實質來討論。2023年，65歲以上民眾全民納保達到99.92%，但是我們的老年人口一直增加，2026年的統計數字，老年人口占總人口的比率應該是20.28%，聯合國定義的超高齡國家老人人口是占21%，我們已經快要達到了，而2036年我們預估更會達到28%，進入極高齡化國家。臺灣邁入這樣一個情況，國人的醫療需求也正快速成長，那要如何降低國人的醫療支出負擔？部分縣市對老人的健保有提供補助，但是各縣市財務狀況不一，依照人民的信賴保護原則，各地應該要有一致性的公平，所以本席跟黃健豪委員提出第二十二條修正條文，希望待會實質討論時，能夠得到行政部門的支持。所以再一次請教次長，你是否支持最近一年綜合所得稅總額合計未達申報標準，那就等於沒有收入，或者綜合所得稅稅率未達20%以上者，滿65歲以上的老人由中央主管機關全額補助健保費，以符合整個世代正義的精神？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的意見，我還是回復一下委員，如果我們有相關的財源當然很好，可是現在有個問題，我向委員報告兩個數字，如果按照目前20%的話，大概就占所有老人的84%。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以更可以看到這個問題的需求點。"],["呂次長建德：但是我向委員報告一個數字，最近正在報稅，稅率20%的家戶所得是126萬到252萬，現在年輕的中位所得是3萬7,500元，平均起來20%的長輩等於一個月將近12萬元，以3萬7,500元的年輕人去補助12萬元的，如果財政可以的話當然很好，但是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好一個財政可以當然很好，我還是要提醒次長，我覺得太多的政治話術是不好的，我們應該要以實質你站在你的角色的立場去看待這個問題，如果要一再地以政治話術、年輕人作為阻擋，本席認為不是很妥。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：整個國家從零歲到一百多歲，政府都有條件式的要照顧，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你再深思。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我還是要提醒不要政治話術。"],["呂次長建德：沒有、沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席跟你討論護理人力的挑戰越來越艱辛了，怎麼辦？雖然我們8次被排擠在WHA，但臺灣人很勇敢，我們由江副帶隊，各政黨派一位去，我們部長在那裡，我們不斷的吶喊，這是臺灣人的精神，這才是真正在做事，不要政治話術。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要請教，我們要怎樣改善護理人力短絀的問題。這次去我也希望部長可以帶回來一些可以借鏡，因為1月份公告三班護病比的標準，自3月1號開始執行、實施，搭配三班輪值夜班人員給予獎勵，3月1號開始實施到現在，你認為實質改善的成果到底是怎麼樣？基層護理師人員的工作越來越繁複，加入的因子越來越多，在這樣的情況下，勞動強度不減，因子會越來越多，換句話說，他們的休假會一再地受到阻撓，甚至要跨科支援，這是一個重點，外科要支援內科，不夠人就是塞入，所以護理人員很辛苦，我們要怎麼樣滾動式的修正？護理工作是醫療體系當中非常重要的一環，次長要怎麼樣做護理人員的後盾？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對於這個部分的關心，我也非常欽佩。我有兩個重點：第一個是我們在去年12月已經核定，行政院有12項的對策，護病比只是其中之一，我想這個要多元。第二個就是剛才委員非常關心的有關跨科的部分，這部分牽涉到勞動部那邊有一些相關的規範。委員對這部分的關心，我們非常佩服，這也是全民共同關心的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你佩服本席提出的問題，但是你沒有回答本席的問題。從3月1號開始執行，現在是5月底，本席問的是你認為到目前為止成效如何？去年行政院核定的12項也是我們積極吶喊的，既然已經有這樣的政策，本席請問你，成效會不會改變？本席要請你去看政策執行的當中成效怎麼樣？好就給予嘉勉，不好的話我們要滾動式的檢討。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我請你將詳實的書面資料給本席。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：執行到現在，你要怎麼樣滾動式的調整，讓它真正的有成效。第二個是三班制的護病比和跨科，因為如本席所說，內科和外科差很多，雖然都是護理師，對於跨科的情況，你的回答是這是勞動部的問題，不許你這樣回答，因為這是你管控的，你是主管機關，你要去瞭解跨科到目前為止到底有多少？實際缺少了多少人？你要去探問問題出來，才可以解決問題，你推給勞動部幹什麼？這樣你就不必站在這裡了。我是語重心長，因為護理師人員真的很辛苦，我的服務處每天都在接受陳情，護理人員真的太辛苦了，斧底抽薪，從根源著手，對護理師科系和相關科系可以做的，要有什麼樣的誘因讓他們來，現在他們做的工作所欠缺、所需要的到底是什麼？這才是我們要解決問題的方式，不要隨隨便便的答復是勞動部的權責，本席不予認同，所以一樣的，跨科系的問題可以怎麼樣解決，請你翔實的去瞭解因素，然後將你預計可以改善的方式給本席，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這才是我們實質在討論的。","最後一個是腸病毒的問題。從6月17號臺北市全額補助弱勢者接種71型疫苗1、2劑，臺北市預計有800名兒童受惠。新北從5月23日開始3歲以下弱勢幼兒也可以免費接種。預防重於治療，因為兒童是國家的主人翁、是我們的寶貝，次長，有沒有研議將腸病毒疫苗納入公費施打以減輕家庭的負擔？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的意見，最近腸病毒疫情確實上升，這部分是由CDC疾管署權管，是否容許會後以書面方式答復？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你去研討看看，因為你接到這樣的問題，這樣就對了，縣市政府已經受不了了，他們自行對弱勢部分給予補助，中央政府呢？我們可以怎樣去協助，請你把我的問題翔實討論之後，將研議方案以書面資料給本席。"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝楊委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.19971875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.46096875,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.970968750000001,"end":7.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.93596875,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.84221875,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.30596875,"end":40.986593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.83471875,"end":158.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.55096875,"end":48.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end"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﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":272.176,"end":291.523,"text":"不是很妥不是很妥因為整個國家從零歲到一百多歲我們都政府都有條件式的要照顧好不好所以你再深思我還是提醒不要政治話術接下來本期跟你討論護理人力的一個挑戰越來越艱辛了怎麼辦"},{"start":292.883,"end":311.153,"text":" ﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠在台HA﹖雖然我們八次被排擠"},{"start":312.774,"end":335.043,"text":"我們要怎麼樣改善護理人力的一個短處的問題。那我們這一次去我也希望部長可以帶回來一些可以借鏡因為在一月份的公告三班互併比的這個標準三月一號開始來執行來實施那搭配了三班輪流夜班的人員給予獎勵我要請教部長"},{"start":337.284,"end":360.252,"text":"目前實施三月一號開始實施到現在你認為實質改善的成果到底是怎麼樣因為基層的護理師人員的工作越來越繁複加入的因子越來越多在這樣的情況之下勞動強度不減因子會越來越多所以換句話說他休假會一再的受到阻撓"},{"start":361.152,"end":385.898,"text":"那甚至呢要跨科這個是一個重點跨科來支援,外科的要來支援內科的,沒夠人就是淡路所以護理人員很辛苦我們要怎麼樣的去滾動式的來修正因為護理工作是我們醫療體系當中非常重要的一環那部長你要怎麼樣作為護理人員的後盾,請說明"},{"start":386.238,"end":415.434,"text":"非常感謝委員對於這個部分的關心,我想也非常非常敬佩。那我兩個中間第一點就是說我們在去年十二月已經有核定這個新政院那邊有十二項的一個對策。那互變比只是其中之一,我想這個要多元。另外第二個就是剛剛委員非常關心的,有關於這一個跨科的部分,其實這個部分會牽涉到勞動部,他們那邊有一些相關的規範。我想這個部分,我想委員的關心我們非常佩服,而且這也是全民大家共同的...你佩服本席提出問題,但是你沒有回答本席的問題。"},{"start":415.974,"end":416.795,"text":"委員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":436.036,"end":451.871,"text":"會不會改變?本席是要請你去看我們的政策執行的當中我們的成效怎麼樣好給予加冕不好我們要滾動式的檢討所以我請你詳細的書面資料給本席你執行到現在"},{"start":452.932,"end":467.509,"text":"你要怎麼樣滾動式的調整讓他們真正有這個成效。第二個,三班制的互併比跟跨科。因為本席說的,內科跟外科一起查很多,雖然都是護理師。"},{"start":468.991,"end":494.517,"text":"所以在這個跨科的情況你回答的是說是這個勞動部的問題不許這樣回答因為這是你管控的是你主管機關你要去了解跨科目前到底有多少實際我們缺少了多少人你要去探問問題出來你才可以去解決問題啊你堆給勞動部幹什麼那你就不要站在這裡了嘛"},{"start":495.137,"end":519.879,"text":"所以我是語重心長啦因為護理師人員真的好辛苦我們每一天服務處都在接受陳情護理人員真的太辛苦了福利中心從根源要護理師科系的相關科系可以做的要怎麼樣誘引讓他們可以來現在他們做的工作所限缺需要的到底是什麼"},{"start":520.8,"end":541.465,"text":"這才是我們要解決問題不要隨隨便便的答覆這是勞動部這本席不予認同所以一樣的跨科系的這個問題可以怎麼樣去解決請你詳實去了解因素那你講你預計你可以改善的方式給本席好不好這個才是我們實質在討論最後一個議題長病毒的問題我們呢從6月17號台北市"},{"start":548.246,"end":569.722,"text":"全額補助弱勢的那七十一型疫苗的這個這個一兩劑。那麼台北市預計有八百名的兒童受惠。新北從五月二十三三歲以下弱勢幼兒也可以免費來接送。所以我要請教部長預防重瘀治療。部長你有沒有研議"},{"start":571.344,"end":586.72,"text":"將腸病毒的疫苗因為這些兒童都是我們最國家的主人翁啊都是我們的寶貝你有沒有研議是否可將腸病毒的疫苗納入公費師大有沒有來減輕家裡的負擔是"},{"start":588.522,"end":588.542,"text":"拜託。"},{"start":605.776,"end":624.258,"text":"楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"153358","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153358","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba160a7eb74750e1848c05f44c04a464dbbeba37a180c9b1cd970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:53:22 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這個就是按著程序走我希望能夠尊重韓院長 尊重組織張誠互相尊重啦 因為要尊重就要整個都尊重因為如果要講起來很長的啦包括秘書長的決定 總統的還有這個政府尤其是相關的未來的配合度其實這個民主基金會成立的時候是一個很好的開始"},{"start":495.433,"end":495.474,"text":"王鴻薇議員"}]}},{"id":"153357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba393778c4fdc956b71766e5648a1e6b71beba37a180c9b1cd089d1730ef7b1b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:59:36 - 11:05:39","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":363,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T11:05:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:59:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":386,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時59分）感謝主席。在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士、先生，有請劉主任委員。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，最近大家都在密切注意你的發言，有關於我們的產業跟能源政策，我的標題是臺灣跨足國際供應鏈產業要靠綠能，而且要善用臺灣優勢布局氫能儲運。在您的很多訪談當中，強調AI時代「算力即國力」，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你提到了三個重點，如果未來預估用電需求會增加，我們要考慮的三個問題是第一，總用電的需求，我們能不能滿足，對不對？電夠不夠？第二個是低碳的電夠不夠，以及如何減碳，這才是重點，是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：再來，才是2050淨零目標。根據最近很紅的和碩童子賢董事長，他說AI運算、電動車、晶片都需要大量電力，所以「電力也是國力」，你同意嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是他後面說核能可以幫助綠能，我就要來請教一下你的意見了，企業需要的是不是穩定供電，但是風光發電有供電間歇性，所以企業對於供電有焦慮，因此考慮核能，就你的瞭解是不是這個原因？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我先解釋一下，核能現在是這樣子，核能是一個低碳電，但是核廢料要得到妥善儲存，才有機會探討它是不是綠電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是以歐盟現在來看，它還不被認為是綠電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前歐盟合乎這個標準的只有芬蘭，最高階的核廢處置場跟生活圈可以永久隔離，只有芬蘭做得到。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以我們現在的不是綠電。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以核能重點……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不在我們的減碳範圍裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在歐盟核能也只有芬蘭可以宣稱OL3，它的電是綠電，是不是這樣的意思？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這我可能要再理解一下，我之前聽到的是到現在歐盟對核電能不能為綠電，還是有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還在討論當中？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還在討論當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至少看起來好像勉強只有芬蘭。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以它只是有機會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有機會，好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但機會可能是5%，可能是50%，這個depends討論的結果。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以這要釐清，不然大家都以為，歐盟認為核電是綠電。那麼積極發展符合RE100的再生能源，這才是我們真正的重心，是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，企業的壓力在這裡。"],["鍾委員佳濱：RE100的再生能源種類有沒有包括核電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前是沒有嘛，很清楚。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為它沒有辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前再生能源憑證能滿足業界的需求嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在正在評估，目前先以我們最新的路徑來看，還差一些些，我們現在是準備這樣做，第一個是做I-REC，就是國際綠電憑證；第二個，台電也會加速在碳捕捉地方的減碳，還有汽車的減碳，我們有一個路徑往這條路走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些產業界的需求都是一些外銷的大產業嗎？國內的中小企業需不需要？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：中小企業有外銷的，目前都有這個需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以總體來講，需求一直在成長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下台積電未來的布局，在臺灣加重投資，它3奈米的產能增加3倍，對綠電的需求是不是要增加很多？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有人在說目前臺灣1,000度的綠電當中，台積電買掉999度，民間中小企業只搶得到1度綠電，你覺得這樣的說法客觀嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個細節我可能還要再去理解啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大部分被它拿走了嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我的認知，有些企業還是有買到它要的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那些都是大企業，中小企業拿不到。我剛剛說的1,000度綠電，只有1度電是中小企業拿得到的，所以未來是不是要更加積極地推動RE100認定的再生能源？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，再生能源現在會更積極一點，而且再生能源以風力發電來講，我瞭解大部分的廠商已經過了學習曲線，後面應該會加速。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以我們來看一下，臺灣的綠電包括風、光發電，還有因為有間歇性，儲能很重要，所以氫是很好的載體，你同意嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。臺灣氫能產業布局是不是太保守？如果只是用氫來替代進口石化燃料發電，您覺得臺灣這樣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守了呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不認為，因為它是一個決戰未來能源的國際競爭力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是它只用來取代發電，我的看法，跟您交換一下意見，其實積極發展氫能的民生運用跟儲運產業很重要，因為我們在民生端，譬如說燃料電池的電動車、性能車，或者運輸端港口的儲運設施，包括阿姆斯特丹、漢堡，這些歐盟的國家都在大力推動，因為要進口氫能，會用氨或者其他的方式進口，它都需要轉變儲能設施和運輸設施，是不是這樣子？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，現在整個歐盟都在做這個實驗。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請你們一定要聯合經濟部跟交通部，因為港口是交通部管的。全球排名前11的航商當中，臺灣占了幾個，你知道嗎？我寫出來了嘛，前11名的占了3個，前20名的占了4個，我們總運能占了全世界的1成，未來的船舶也是不是要用低碳燃料？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，因為歐盟已經開始徵收……"],["鍾委員佳濱：已經紀錄了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，已經徵收了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不只我們運輸的船隊要用低碳燃料，連其載運的能源機也是要改成類似像氨這樣的氫能原料，是不是這樣子？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是不是能夠用臺灣的航運優勢，政府積極地輔導發展氫能儲運產業？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就給我答案，請你研議政府利用臺灣航運優勢積極發展及輔導氫能民生應用和儲運產業的可行性，一個月提出一份報告可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。主委，我跟您說，反核是民進黨的神主牌、護黨神山，那是神主牌，你不要去亂動它，他們現在已經在跟你講話，是叫你不要對核能亂發言，小心一點，好不好？","現在請羅美玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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那麼台灣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守如果只是用氫來替代進口的石化燃料來發電您覺得這樣的台灣的氫能產業布局是不是太保守了呢"},{"start":270.991,"end":292.354,"text":"我不認為因為他是一個決戰未來能源的國際競爭力但是他只用來取代發電我的看法跟您交換一下意見其實呢往下看其實經濟發展、輕能的民生運用跟儲運產業很重要因為我們民生端比如說燃料電池的電動車、輕能車或者運輸端我們港口的儲運設施包括阿姆斯特丹、漢堡"},{"start":292.954,"end":313.256,"text":"這些歐盟的國家都在大力的推動因為要進口這些氫能他用安或者其他方式進口他都需要有儲能設施和運輸設施的轉變是不是這樣子是的現在整個歐盟都在做這個實驗所以請你們一定要聯合經濟部跟交通部因為交通部呢港口是交通部管的往下看全球排前11名的航商當中台灣佔了幾個你知道嗎"},{"start":316.24,"end":323.438,"text":"我寫出來了嗎?前11名的占了3個啦前20名的占了4個我們總的運能啊占了全世界的一成"},{"start":324.383,"end":344.641,"text":"那未來的船舶也是不是要用低碳燃料?是的,因為歐盟已經開始徵收。已經記錄了嘛。對,已經徵收了。所以不只我們的運輸的船隊要用低碳燃料,連它載運的這些委員機也是要改成類似像安這樣的一個氫能原料,是不是這樣子?是的。好,我稍微往下看。所以是不是能夠用台灣的航運優勢,政府積極地來輔導發展氫能儲運的產業?"},{"start":350.83,"end":358.439,"text":"政府利用臺灣航運優勢﹑積極發展及輔導輕能民生應用和儲存船的可行性﹑一個月提出一個報告,可以嗎?"}]}},{"id":"153356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba101443479c20161e4869c0f3e297fc60beba37a180c9b1cd07b297a3839f5c4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:54:24 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有請法務部次長麻煩徐次長徐次長委員好"},{"start":20.444,"end":45.229,"text":"市長早安我今天想要討論兩個問題一個就是有關於我們現在有關於少年矯正學校的處遇實施條例以及少年關戶所處遇實施條例的一個進度就是在2017年我們的國事會議裡面就已經有提到說矯正機關要立刻進行遇證改革之修法包含了監獄刑刑法修正草案、羈押法修正草案以及少年矯正機關收容處遇實施條例草案"},{"start":47.329,"end":64.796,"text":"但是我知道到現在2024年7年過去了我們現在只有羈押法跟刑刑法都已經送進來了可是我們的少年矯正機關收容處遇實施條例到現在一直沒有送到立法院那現在也分成了兩個版本一個是少年矯正學校處遇實施條例"},{"start":65.936,"end":91.971,"text":"這個地方好像2024今年3月已經送進來行政院了那我想要知道少年關戶所處遇實施的條例的狀況是怎麼樣呢因為民間團體一直說他們好像都還沒有被邀請來討論可不可以幫我做個說明報告委員我們近期將辦理預告一個月那預告之後呢會邀請民間團體相關部會審慎的來研議草案並送那個行政院審查這關戶所嗎在這個月內"},{"start":95.157,"end":100.984,"text":"是嗎?是關戶所還是矯正學校處遇條約?哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平 哲平"},{"start":113.601,"end":128.881,"text":"目前是我們有在5月份通報行政院那我們用通報單通告行政院現在在核定中那核定之後我們就會進行預告社會各界就可以針對我們預告的內容提出建議"},{"start":130.194,"end":132.696,"text":"行政院合定之後我們會盡快來辦理因為我們現在在講這些不管這些修法我們都應該回到兩個重點就是說畢竟他們是少年"},{"start":149.411,"end":150.712,"text":"因為我知道他們現在好像放風的時間也都有所限制嘛"},{"start":168.124,"end":185.558,"text":"這部分一定要在這個草案裡面去做草案跟實施上面都要去做一些修正再來第二個部分還是要以教育為處遇的核心這部分就是說雖然現在是有教育部來邀請相關部會來成立少年矯正教育及輔導小組可是跟現在無實質功能的"},{"start":186.539,"end":186.559,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":203.24,"end":226.262,"text":"那再來就是說我之前就有來追蹤有關於這個敦品中學的一個處置的一個策進行為的報告但是我發現所有的問題都在講學生學生長期依附偏差同才接觸幫派次文化具有衝動急躁性格施以告誡勞動服務之懲罰然後但是施以多數感化教育學生並無實質影響"},{"start":228.264,"end":229.946,"text":"我們是請那個矯正署的周組長那將近是非常多耶 比例非常高耶"},{"start":258.643,"end":259.784,"text":"我們有三級的輔導機制所以這個部分我們會在二級輔導這個地方特別來著力加強"},{"start":287.287,"end":314.285,"text":"那我想知道我們這些特教生有得到相關的特教資源嗎?在裡面嗎?護導教師跟新設人員以外包括說我們有聘主代理教師等等這個部分我們都會來努力好 特教資源我們可以再詳細討論剛好因為你講到了代理教師我想就直接跳到這一題 剛好"},{"start":315.646,"end":340.263,"text":"我們現在正式老師有116人然後我們缺額55人我們用代理教師來處理的方式有將近八成可是代理教師其實是一年一聘我想要強調一個重點學生要跟大人建立一個關係才有可能去處理學生遇到的一些問題老師也才能夠真正的掌握學生的狀況才有可能去處理這些問題現在我們衍生的這些問題所以現在因為我們一年一聘的狀況根本沒有辦法培養信任"},{"start":345.988,"end":361.344,"text":"所以這個如何讓正式的老師可以進來以及如何讓特教的這些孩子們可以得到相關的資源我希望可以跟教育部一起來討論是不是可以引用教育部的IEP的方式來協助這些孩子那這些我們可不可以在會後約個時間來做一些討論"},{"start":364.551,"end":392.504,"text":"報告委員我們少角校的學科教師、輔導教師跟特教教師他是共用這個言語的那因為少角校的學生跟一般學校學生不一樣他大部分是家庭有問題的所以他的人數的進出是不是還有不定期性不是一般學校因此我們要保有一些彈性的切合但是我們聘用的這些代理教師都是合格的教師"},{"start":393.484,"end":413.151,"text":"所以這個是沒有問題只是是說我們在輔導教室還缺5位新設人員還缺18位這個部分我們會去努力再來爭取好因為關於這個我覺得我們可以再約個時間啦詳細討論第一個是代理教師的部分一年一聘這個問題你到底如何讓他持續的留在這邊這是一個很大的問題因為穩定性不高"},{"start":413.951,"end":427.803,"text":"我想您一定非常同意嘛沒有穩定的老師如何會有穩定的學生這是一定非常肯定的一件事情第二件事情是說我們到底這一些老師要如何讓他招募足薪資待遇是不是一個問題這我想都要詳細的做討論"},{"start":430.837,"end":458.062,"text":"一般來講新進的老師大概五萬多啦但如果研究所學歷大概可以達到五萬八那個是指新進比較之前的那是對但是為什麼還是去找不到人嗎對吧所以是不是還有其他的對沒錯是對所以你都說到了重點嘛好但因為我時間已經到了所以我們再約時間來詳細討論好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba479fcbc2b384d43bcb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cd40fcd7a1e29732485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:54:27 - 10:59:47","影片長度":"00:05:20","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":320,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:59:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:54:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時54分）謝謝我們召委、謝謝我們與會同仁。請我們曾主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委，恭喜你啦，來擔任我們原住民族委員會的主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：我們今年所編列的預算也超過過去所有的預算，今年編列了111億，這是歷年來最高的，這也要感謝我們原住民的委員以及我們的召委他們的用心爭取。針對我們的原住民，原住民在我們都會區裡面，現在的比例已經超過一半，真的現在大家關心的就是原住民他們未來願景的部分，因為未來願景的部分，現在很多都落在我們的都會區，我們要怎樣來照顧我們的原住民，不管是就業也好，不管我們孩童的就學也好，我們要怎樣讓他們有很好的一個屬於自己的聚會，這是我長期以來，包含在土城我的選區。主委，你知道我的選區現在原住民有多少？土城、三峽的原住民就有將近八千人，這個比例算是非常高，所以我過去常在推動原住民的活動空間，我在土城也推動了一個生態公園，生態公園做得很漂亮，未來要有一個聚會所，因為原住民要有一個屬於自己區域的活動空間，因為現在我們的原住民都要借里的活動中心，要辦節慶還是要開會，那也是造成不方便。而在生態公園方面，我也要求新北市這邊，是不是可以提撥一塊公有地由我們原住民族委員會來籌劃，跟新北市合作，來蓋一個聚會所，應該讓族人有一個很好的空間，這是我長期在推動，所以原住民生態公園做好了，主委有空，我們到那邊去看一下好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：你看未來的經費，是不是找一個適當的地點，我們來推動聚會所？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好的。"],["吳委員琪銘：你的看法呢？可不可行？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為那個地方就符合我們現在相關補助的規定，但是土地的部分要另外解決，就是希望土地不是有爭議或者是有糾紛的。"],["吳委員琪銘：沒有，土地一定要公家的土地。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：你要編預算，土城那個地段那麼貴，也買不起啊，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：原住民族委員會要跟新北市聯繫，新北市也有原民局，你要主動地跟他們接洽，是不是在我們土城找一個適當的地點來蓋聚會所，這樣你才能落實來照顧到我們所有的原住民，在我們的都會區裡面讓他們有一個很好的空間，這是我們大家共同的期待嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：像9月，我每年都會辦一個紙風車活動，紙風車裡面還是針對我們原住民的語言來做宣導，因為畢竟在那邊很多原住民的小朋友也是很喜歡看紙風車，到時候我會邀請主委，我們一起來參加，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為主委，其實原住民早期，你看在基層我們都可以看得到，他們跟我們平地的還是有一點落差，你看我們所有原住民的委員，大家這幾年真的也是付出很多，替原住民爭取了非常多，我們都要去珍惜，未來原住民相關事務，該做的我們都是會全力來配合，所以我們法條的制定一定要更周延，讓我們後續要推動會更加地順暢，這是我們大家共同的期待，因為原住民的權益，我們都會支持，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：像我們高金召委講的，你今天來是比較緊張，但是我們都會支持你啦！好不好？放心。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘召委、謝謝曾主委。","我們現在先休息一下，待會繼續開會。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：請所有官員回到位子上，我們要繼續開會了。","繼續請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.50346875,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":6.156593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.61596875,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.83034375,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.46721875,"end":44.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.99034375,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.361593750000004,"end":44.985968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.306593750000005,"end":51.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.97221875,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.70409375000001,"end":96.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.74159375,"end":98.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.37409375,"end":102.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.47909375,"end":105.33096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.44909375,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.06909375000001,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.16596875,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.53596875000001,"end":118.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.52721875,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.33659375,"end":127.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.43721875000001,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.85659375,"end":144.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.22346875,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.64096875,"end":165.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.91221875000002,"end":169.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.35034375,"end":173.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.64096875,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.07534375,"end":175.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.69971875000002,"end":177.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.47159375,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.16346875000002,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.45034375,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.53034375000001,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.28534375,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.15784375,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.25846875000002,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.28346875000003,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.09659375,"end":201.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.09221875,"end":202.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.60659375,"end":223.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.08034375000003,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.67846875,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.53909375,"end":231.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.55159375000002,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.34409375,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.28471875000002,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.11096875,"end":245.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.15284375000002,"end":249.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.25346875000002,"end":253.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.67909375000002,"end":253.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.15159375000002,"end":259.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.21409375,"end":267.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.58409375,"end":268.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.78221875,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.45221875000004,"end":276.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.73034375000003,"end":278.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.48534375,"end":280.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.56096875000003,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.23596875000004,"end":284.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.29034375000003,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.84284375000004,"end":287.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.39534375,"end":300.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.63784375,"end":302.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.75159375000004,"end":304.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.64159375,"end":305.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.10971875,"end":314.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.32409375000003,"end":312.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.25596875,"end":320.06534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.804,"end":1.926,"text":"有請曾主委。"},{"start":15.101,"end":43.532,"text":"主委好主委恭喜你來擔任我們原住民委員會的主委那我們的今年我們所編列的預算也超乎了過去的所有的預算今年編列了111億這是歷年來最高的這也要感謝我們原住民的委員以及我們的召委他們的用心爭取"},{"start":44.432,"end":44.452,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":59.764,"end":59.784,"text":"吳琪銘"},{"start":78.956,"end":78.976,"text":"吳琪銘"},{"start":99.417,"end":99.437,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":116.587,"end":116.907,"text":"新北市公有地提撥公有地"},{"start":145.282,"end":145.302,"text":"吳琪銘議員"},{"start":170.439,"end":199.01,"text":"找一個適當的地點我們來推動我們的集會所。 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這個應該是列為你們這個工作計畫之一吧謝謝委員提醒我們會登這個題目去研究那另外就是說未來這個你的報告裡面有AI在臨床上就是說醫療服務的部分你AI在臨床上落地運用我看你的報告也有提到這一點"},{"start":520.498,"end":530.21,"text":"所以你要怎麼樣確保這個醫療AI的安全跟效益是很重要所以你要這安全性效益你要先建置一個相對應的這個倫理準則"},{"start":532.15,"end":552.637,"text":"因為你報告有提到這一點那這也是你好像上一次的報告裡面沒有提到這一點我發現你有這個想法你要怎麼突破醫療資料的這個使用的困境這裡面去思考這個問題 你的想法是怎麼樣是 同意不是 同意 這個需要改善 這個需要改善 這個"},{"start":558.143,"end":584.637,"text":"我們現在是跟其實跟外務這邊現在正在主導一塊健康台灣的政策裡面數位醫療是放在裡面很重要的一項我同意我的觀點當然過程是好事我很開心但是你要有你的想法你要國發會國發會有你的主張有你的政策有你實行的這個時程是的會啦這是我的專業我會提出一些我們的看法"},{"start":585.845,"end":586.405,"text":"謝謝邱主委員"}]}},{"id":"153353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebacf277e3c6700e97bea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cd15a52f385e0ba14d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:41:31 - 10:57:17","影片長度":"00:15:46","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":946,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:57:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:41:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":509,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時41分）主席、各位早安。請次長。"],["主席：請呂次長。"],["林委員淑芬：次長你好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：最近一次你到餐廳用餐是什麼時候？"],["呂次長建德：最近一次到餐廳用餐，報告委員，我來……"],["林委員淑芬：你想不起來？OK……"],["呂次長建德：我來衛福部之後……"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係。那你有沒有用過QR Code點餐？"],["呂次長建德：這個有。"],["林委員淑芬：點餐以後有使用線上支付結帳嗎？線上支付。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我的IT能力不太好。"],["林委員淑芬：是別人替你服務的吧！"],["呂次長建德：不敢、不敢。"],["林委員淑芬：你有沒有到過麥當勞、肯德基、摩斯漢堡的自助點餐機點過餐？自己操作。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，沒有，我都用現金。抱歉。"],["林委員淑芬：不是現金，我是說自助點餐機，自己操作，沒有透過櫃檯、點餐人員。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我算是比較有年歲的人，麥當勞我比較不……"],["林委員淑芬：你幾歲？抱歉，這個是不應該回答的啦！"],["呂次長建德：抱歉、抱歉、抱歉，麥當勞我……"],["林委員淑芬：我在這裡必須要請你回答，因為這跟這個有關。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我……"],["林委員淑芬：你幾歲了啦？抱歉，可是這個跟我的主題有關哪！"],["呂次長建德：我屬馬。我55年次啦！1966年，我55年次。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣是幾歲？"],["呂次長建德：今年58。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我現在要跟你講，數發部在2023年發布了「112年數位發展調查報告」，其報告內容指出，從年齡差異來看，個人上網率大概以60歲為分界，12至59歲民眾上網率達91.9%以上，但是60至64歲就下降至83.7%、65歲以上民眾的上網率只有51.6%，換言之大概60歲……抱歉，我問你年齡是因為這個原因。"],["呂次長建德：是、是、是。"],["林委員淑芬：60歲以上就有數位落差。近五成的65歲以上長者不會使用網路，這只是使用網路喔！你只要會用LINE，就有在使用網路了。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：現在我告訴你，可是這裡面有一個更精準的分析，這個報告裡面有一個叫做資訊與通信科技近用權，從ICT近用、使用與素養的年齡異同彙整表可以看得出來，如果不要講只是上網的部分，從資訊查詢和行動支付兩項指標來看，60至64歲開始就低於全體平均值，但是65以上的部分呈現雪崩式下滑，65歲以上使用網路做資訊查詢的只有18%、使用行動支付的只有10.6%。因此以65歲以上使用資訊查詢和行動支付這兩個指標來看的話，其實是雪崩式下滑，幾乎不會啦！九成的人沒有使用電子支付。","你剛才說你有在使用電子支付還是沒有？次長有沒有LINE 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Pay是有，但我不知道要怎麼使用，抱歉，我趕快回去研究怎麼操作。"],["林委員淑芬：次長都不會用了。我很開心聽到連次長都不會用，看到這種現象，你就知道問題有多嚴重，我現在才要討論問題。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["林委員淑芬：關於銀髮族的數位落差困境，現在的社會越來越科技化，連鎖餐廳一般都是手機點餐，app點餐的模式逐漸普及，很多長輩其實是無所適從，現在AI的發展日新月異，長者的日常生活注定跟社會環境是越來越衝突，因為高齡上的數位落差，變成高齡外出的挫折，然後變成高齡歧視，後來就變成高齡被邊緣化，一個階段一個階段，社會對年輕人好像越來越方便，網路越來越方便，可是老人卻越來越邊緣，因為數位落差，結果讓老人不敢走出去！以點餐來講，你知道很多餐廳是手機和平板點餐，對高齡者來講，他有什麼考驗？次長，你想得到他會有什麼障礙？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，其實有幾個部分，第一就是可能字體大小，還有另外一方面……"],["林委員淑芬：字太小是因為老花眼，然後手指不靈敏，不會使用這個系統……"],["呂次長建德：是的，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：根據弘道老人福利基金會的處長陳奐宇表示，長者的科技落差在「科技點餐」愈來愈普及的現代社會中更加困窘，連到超市買東西都因為不擅使用app而遭排隊等待的客人嘲諷，有人會冷言冷語的說：不會買就不要出來。其實不是長者，包括你，你是中年啦，對科技點餐也有障礙，即便你要去適應和學習也要花時間。所以弘道基金會也收到長輩遇到類似困擾的抱怨，像手機點餐點了老半天，一直點卻沒有辦法進入下一步，或是點到最後一個步驟不小心又滑到上一頁，結果變成又得重來；有時候點餐的螢幕字體太小，老花眼看不到，這些都是重重的障礙和阻礙，而這只是點餐喔，遇到採購的時候，也會被歧視，很多知名賣場會推他們自己的app，他們在推app的時候，會員制要先行，所以實體會員卡不能使用，然後叫大家都要用app結帳，如果操作不順就會讓結帳的時間拉很長，看到後面大排長龍，長輩壓力也很大，後面的顧客因為要趕時間結帳，最後也一樣一句話：不會買就不要出來！遇到這種狀況，你說店員可以幫他操作，但賣場為什麼要推使用app、自助結帳等等？就是因為要節省人力成本，我們以為店員會來幫他，但根本就沒有多餘的店員可以幫忙，所以你說叫店員過來，他可能會拒絕，表示手邊工作都忙不完了，怎麼還會去幫忙操作！大部分都會說可不可以去別的櫃檯結帳，重新去別的櫃檯排隊這樣子。","再談就醫的部分。這種情形不是說不出去餐廳吃飯就沒事了，不要去super market買東西就沒事了，不是喔！現在連老人家看醫生也遇到同樣問題，現在多數醫療院所都可以線上掛號，而且要透過線上查看看診的進度，那麼只會使用老人機的長輩該怎麼辦？沒有人協助怎麼辦？只好從早上坐到中午，一直坐在那裡。通常大型醫院因為敬老會協助長輩，次長知道他們提供的協助是針對幾歲的長者嗎？"],["呂次長建德：好像都是志工嘛！志工在那邊提供……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！志工都提供幾歲長者服務，你知道嗎？所謂的醫院給敬老的協助是幾歲，你知道嗎？"],["呂次長建德：大概80歲吧！"],["林委員淑芬：85歲！次長，這些問題都很嚴重，我們今天講說要給老人什麼福利、什麼照顧，生活上的這些數位落差，讓他受到的困擾和遭遇，其實就是很大的社會排斥和排擠了。下載醫院的app可以線上查詢推估看診時間，但他們沒有辦法推估時間，只好一直等，對於經常出入醫院的長輩而言，只要就診、回診，不是太早到，就是預估錯誤而晚到，導致過號，整個時間都耗在那裡。這不是只有老人福利團體的觀察，連年輕人自己都觀察到如果沒有年輕人，自己的爸爸媽媽也是一樣，可是很多爸爸媽媽都說不要麻煩年輕人，到時候如果沒有年輕人幫忙或不想麻煩年輕人，就乾脆不要外出消費，但這樣的狀況，符合我們國家提升高齡者跟社會連結的政策目標嗎？次長。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，確實在目前這個資訊社會裡，委員剛剛提到的數位落差，我們要趕快趕上去，我也跟委員報告，目前在社區照護關懷據點和長青學苑，都有推類似這樣的對策方案。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我們都說得很好聽，2022年行政院核定了因應超高齡社會對策方案，提到我們2026年會進入超高齡社會，老人人口占總人口比率會到20.8%，2036年會達到28%，進入極高齡社會的國家，所以你們當然也要有一些政策，包括提升高齡者數位連結、降低高齡者數位落差的政策，就如你所說，在社區大學裡有教學，可是你知道社區大學是教什麼嗎？教什麼內容？"],["呂次長建德：以我過去在臺中服務的經驗，大概就是如何上網，以及對整個設備使用的一些knowledge。"],["林委員淑芬：你講了一部分而已啦，社區大學、關懷據點是教你怎麼使用FB、使用通訊軟體LINE，教你怎麼玩遊戲調劑身心，但是這跟我剛才講的那一些不一樣，也不符合需求，現在的老人大概用LINE都可以，但是如何使用QR Code點餐、如何使用實體點餐機點餐、電子支付、如何查找資訊，他們並不熟悉。通常他們會亂傳假訊息，我就會跟他們說：你都有智慧手機了，為什麼不在Google裡查詢一下，關鍵字輸入就可以了。但他們完全不會，人手一機，但完全不會，他也沒有辦法辨別網路詐騙，更不要講用手機進行網路掛號和查看看診進度。重點是社區大學，就是你所謂的國家整體改善數位落差的政策和教學，都是紙上談兵，都是在那裡看影片，然後照著做，聽完以後，老人家就是鴨子聽雷啦！聽完後，不知道在說什麼，就一頭霧水！所以真正要做的是什麼你知道嗎？應該要帶著長輩走出去實際操作，就是你們跟一些企業合作，請他們在某些時段讓長輩可以去練習外出課程，真正去操作，不要只是在課堂上教學，然後紙上談兵與現實脫節。","我舉韓國的例子說明，你就知道我們衛福部真的從來沒有思考如何解決這部分的障礙和問題。韓國2022年因為疫情加速了整個社會數位化的時代，全韓國電子自助機臺激增三萬臺，是2019年的3倍之多，結果很多高齡者望機興嘆，因為通通都不會，從出示快篩的陰性報告、接種證明到點餐、購買票券通通電子化，南韓的銀髮族根本不熟悉這些電子產品，所以外出一趟壓力非常大，感覺他被社會邊緣化了，但又害怕丟臉，所以乾脆不外出避免消費，其實這樣的數位落差讓高齡者更加遠離社會。後來首爾做了什麼你知道嗎？他們增設了慢機臺，專門for長輩，給他們慢慢操作，不要有壓力，因為這是長輩慢慢的操作臺。然後京畿大學也幫長輩們上數位課，把電子機臺搬進樂齡課程，從按鍵說明到使用程序，一切手把手教學，還讓長輩直接上機練習。除此之外，疫情期間韓國因為銀行業務全面調整，兩年內關閉了600家銀行分行，全面擴大網路金融服務，但是全韓國60到70歲的民眾網路銀行使用率到目前只有37%，70歲以上的長者更只有一成，南韓的銀髮族說沒有人幫忙下載網銀app，太複雜了，他們不會，所以操作時只能看帳戶明細，也不敢轉帳，因為大家都很忙，所以也不敢麻煩別人，結果反彈的聲浪排山倒海，然後南韓各大銀行除了維持少數分行運作以外，開始增設大字的機臺，還派出行動銀行專車。","時間關係，我最後再講結論就好了。首爾女子大學社會福祉學系教授提到，數位落差使長輩的社交範圍縮小，甚至遭到破壞，他們會因此感到孤單、孤獨，老人輕生率可能提高，而縮小生活中的數位落差，防止長輩們出現社會疏離感，打造友善的高齡環境，是後疫情時代的重要課題。因應這個狀況，邁向超高齡社會，勢必一定要加速調整精進政府的政策重點。","次長，數位落差現行的執行策略和具體工作，你們一定要好好去盤點，不要在那裡紙上談兵，而且也不是實際生活需要的，你要針對高齡者的日常生活進行數位科技應用，擴大所有關懷據點、社區大學裡具體生活能力的教導課程。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["林委員淑芬：這樣你知道嗎？你們都沒做，基本上是完全沒有思考過這樣的問題。"],["呂次長建德：好，OK。"],["主席：好，謝謝林……"],["林委員淑芬：你自己都不會了，應該知道別人更慘！謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.109718750000003,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.80409375,"end":22.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.086593750000002,"end":22.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.14971875,"end":26.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.75221875,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.53221875,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.190343750000004,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.080343750000004,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.48096875,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.13909375,"end":37.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.24034375,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.52721875,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.75471875,"end":41.492843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.89784375,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.80846875,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.98971875,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.00659375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.664718750000006,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.478468750000005,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.49096875,"end":55.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.072843750000004,"end":56.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.73096875,"end":61.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.540343750000005,"end":62.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.07159375,"end":65.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.99534375,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.05409375,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.71221875,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.48721875000001,"end":79.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.17471875000001,"end":79.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.52909375,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.43596875,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.75596875000001,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.74721875,"end":90.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.59096875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.03346875000001,"end":92.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.10096875,"end":92.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.21909375,"end":92.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.26971875000001,"end":92.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.30346875000001,"end":92.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.38784375,"end":94.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.67034375,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.94409375000001,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.88409375,"end":107.86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Code點餐?這個有。點餐以後有使用線上支付結帳嗎?線上支付。報告委員因為我那個IT能力不太好啦。你?你是別人替你付無的吧?"},{"start":56.124,"end":69.727,"text":"拜託委員,沒有。我都用現金的啦。抱歉抱歉。不是啦,不是現金。我是說自助點餐機欸。自己去操作。沒有櫃台,沒有那個點餐人員的。拜託委員,因為我算比較有錢的人齁。拜託委員,你幾歲?"},{"start":85.816,"end":101.002,"text":"抱歉,這個是不應該回答的。我必須要請你回答,因為這個跟這個有關。你幾歲了啊?抱歉。可是這個跟我的主題有關啊。我太壞了,我太壞了。我外國女主啦,1962年去外國啦。"},{"start":108.513,"end":127.84,"text":"我五十五年次啊。這樣是幾歲?五百,今年五百。好,我就要跟你講喔。數目發佈在2023年發佈了一個112年數位發展調查報告。它的報告內容指出啊,從年齡差異來看,個人上網率大概以60歲為分界。12到59歲的民眾上網率達91.9%以上。但是60到64歲就下降到剩下83.7%。"},{"start":137.623,"end":154.671,"text":"﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲以上的民眾上網率是只有51.6%﹑65歲"},{"start":167.677,"end":184.565,"text":"他這個報告裡面有一個叫資訊與通信科技禁用權ICT這個禁用權和使用和素養的年齡異同會証表那可以看得出來資訊查詢如果不要講直上網從資訊查詢和行動支付兩項指標來看60到64歲都開始就低於全體的平均值但是"},{"start":196.85,"end":212.139,"text":"﹑六十五歲以上呈現雪崩式下滑﹑六十五歲以上他使用網路做資訊查詢的只有18%﹑使用行動支付的只有10%,10.6%﹑"},{"start":214.841,"end":230.135,"text":"所以對於這個65歲以上使用資訊查詢和行動支付的這個兩個指標來看的話,其實是雪崩式。幾乎不會啦!高零沒有在用電子支付的啦!你剛才說你有在用還是沒有?電子支付。你有沒有來配?Google配?台灣配?市長有沒有?沒有。"},{"start":241.491,"end":245.297,"text":"五十八歲的沒有啊!包括 Google Pay有,但是"},{"start":246.823,"end":254.805,"text":"林淑芬,不好意思,不好意思,我會趕快回去,我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕快回去搶貨我會趕"},{"start":275.231,"end":295.224,"text":" ﹏那現在AI的發展日新月異﹏長者的日常生活注定跟社會環境其實是越來越衝突的﹏那其實就因為高齡上的數位落差﹏然後變成高齡的這個挫折﹏外出的挫折﹏然後變成高齡歧視﹏後來就變成高齡被邊緣化﹏"},{"start":299.086,"end":320.554,"text":"這是一個階段一個階段社會好像年輕人越來越方便網路越來越方便可是呢老人越來越邊緣啊因為數位落差讓老人結果不敢走出去不敢走出來那我講點餐來講光是你知道餐廳很多手機和平板點餐那對高齡者來講他有什麼考驗"},{"start":322.12,"end":345.719,"text":"市長,你想得到他會有什麼障礙?包括 me,其實有幾個部分,第一個就是說可能字體大小,還有另外一方面就是說,還有另外一方面就是說,他小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。他小字,老花眼,手指不靈敏,不會使用這個系統。 是的沒錯。那根據紅道老人福利基金會的處長陳煥宇他表示啊,長者的科技落差在科技典參越來越普及的現代社會中越來越困窘。"},{"start":347.34,"end":362.133,"text":" ﹏連到超市買東西都因為不擅長使用APP 然後招牌隊等待客人嘲諷﹏有人會冷言冷語說不會買就不要出來﹏所以即使不是長者﹏包括關你﹏你中年的中年﹏"},{"start":363.814,"end":392.312,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":392.572,"end":412.509,"text":"這是典參喔那遇到採購的時候他也會被歧視當然很多在知名的賣場裡面他會說要推到他們的APP嘛他們的APP要推的時候會員制要先行所以呢實體會員卡沒有不能使用然後都叫他們要大家都要用那個APP去這個結帳然後操作不順就讓結帳的時間拉很長嘛所以其他後面大排長龍"},{"start":419.155,"end":441.391,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":441.791,"end":457.881,"text":" ﹏所以我們以為說電源會來幫他﹏他根本就沒有多餘出來電源可以來幫他﹏所以直接就替﹏你說叫他過來,他沒有﹏甚至拒絕﹏我這個沒人賣去﹏去幫你操作你的那個﹏所以都會說你可不可以去別的櫃台結帳﹏去別的櫃台重新排隊這樣子﹏"},{"start":459.042,"end":485.87,"text":" ﹏那再談就醫﹏這個不是說啊你不不出去餐廳吃飯就沒事了那不要去那個supermarket買東西就沒事不是喔現在連老人家要去看醫生也遇到同樣的問題現在多數的醫療院所都可以線上掛號而且要透過線上去看到你看診的進度然後然後只會使用老人機的長輩怎麼辦沒有人協助怎麼辦他只有"},{"start":488.091,"end":507.799,"text":"從早上做到中午一直做一直就做在那裡所以你知道大型醫院會協助所謂的長輩敬老會提供協助的是幾歲的嗎大型醫院好像是都志工嘛志工在這邊提供不是啦那志工都提供幾歲的你知道嗎"},{"start":509.506,"end":533.722,"text":"所謂的敬老醫院給他們的協助是幾歲你知道嗎?市長85歲市長這些問題都很嚴重我們今天講說給老人什麼福利給老人什麼照顧連他生活上的這個數位落差讓他所受到的困擾和遭遇他其實就是很大的社會排斥了和排擠了你知道"},{"start":534.802,"end":552.292,"text":"如果使用現場查詢下載醫院的APP可以推估,但它沒有辦法推估時間,所以只能一直等。而且對經常出入醫院的長輩來講,只要就診、回診,不是太早到就是預估錯誤晚到導致過號,所以就是時間都耗在那裡。"},{"start":553.012,"end":580.219,"text":"所以不是只有這個團體老人福利團體在觀察連年輕人都自己觀察到說如果沒有我們年輕人自己的爸爸媽媽也是一樣可是很多爸爸媽媽說我不要麻煩你年輕人然後到時候就說沒有年輕人幫忙也不想麻煩年輕人的話我們就乾脆不要外出去消費但是這個符合我們國家提升高齡者跟社會連結的政策目標嗎?次長"},{"start":581.741,"end":595.682,"text":"委員,確實我們現在目前就是說資訊社會裡面就您剛剛說的這個數位落差,這個我們要趕快來趕上去。那委員跟委員報告我們現在目前在社區照顧關懷據點長青學院,我們現在目前都有推類似像這樣的一個方案。"},{"start":596.958,"end":609.665,"text":"對啦,我們說得很好聽。2022年我們行政院核定了因應超高齡社會對策方案啦。然後提到我們2026年會進入超高齡社會,老人人口賺總人口的比率會20.8。到2036年會達到28%進入極高齡社會的國家。"},{"start":615.948,"end":627.484,"text":"那所以你們當然也有一些政策提升高齡者數位連結降低高齡者數位落差的政策如你所說在社區大學裡面教可是你知道社區大學裡面教什麼嗎?教什麼?內容?"},{"start":630.855,"end":654.291,"text":"一般通常就是說以我在國際台中服務的經驗大概就是說像如何上網啦還有對於一些整個這一個就是設備使用的一些的一些knowledge你講了一部分而已啦他在教社區大學關懷據點教你怎麼使用FB啊怎麼使用通訊軟體LINE啊你怎麼玩遊戲調記身心啊但是跟我剛才講的那一些都不一步"},{"start":655.071,"end":655.131,"text":"﹑林淑芬﹑"},{"start":679.776,"end":704.922,"text":"人手一機但是完全不會那他也沒有辦法辨別網路詐騙更不要講用手機進行網路掛號和看準的進度而且重點是社區大學你所謂的整個國家整體的改善數位落差的政策和教學都是紙上談兵在那裡啊看這個放影片然後就是照這樣你就照這樣做聽完以後老人家就是鴨子聽雷啦"},{"start":707.123,"end":734.334,"text":"聽了不知道在說什麼什麼什麼。所以要真正的要做的是什麼你知道嗎?應該要帶著長輩走出去而且實際的去操作然後你們跟一些企業合作請你們在某些時段讓長輩可以去練習外出課程然後真正去操作一下不要講在課程上面只是教學然後只上談兵與現實脫節你知道我舉一個例子韓國"},{"start":737.045,"end":754.138,"text":"你就知道說我們真的整個衛福部從來都沒有思考解決這部分的障礙和問題。韓國2022年因為疫情所以加速了它整個社會的數位化的時代。全韓國電子自助機台"},{"start":754.998,"end":779.079,"text":"提供了三萬台,是2019年的三倍之多。結果很多高齡者是忘記先看,因為通通都不會。然後從出事快篩的陰性報告,接種證明到點餐購買票券,通通電子化。然後南韓的銀髮族根本不熟悉這個電子產品,所以外出一趟壓力非常大。他感覺我被社會邊緣化了。"},{"start":780.06,"end":787.503,"text":"但是又害怕說很丟臉。所以乾脆不外出避免消費。所以讓這樣的數位落差讓高齡者其實更遠離社會的。所以首爾後來首爾就做了什麼知道嗎?他就增設慢機台。專門佛這個長輩給他慢慢操作你不要有壓力這是長輩慢慢操作台。然後經濟到的地區也幫長輩們上幾數位課。把電子機台"},{"start":807.552,"end":822.19,"text":"﹑搬進勒林課程﹑從案件說明到使用程序﹑一切手把手教學﹑還讓長輩直接上機練習。那除此之外呢,疫情期間,韓國因為這個銀行業務全面調整,那兩年關閉了600家銀行分行。"},{"start":827.196,"end":837.439,"text":" ﹏所以全面擴大網路金融服務﹏但是全韓國60到70歲的民眾﹏網路銀行使用率到目前只有37%﹏然後70歲以上的長者只有一成﹏南韓的銀髮族說沒有人幫我下載這個網銀APP﹏"},{"start":843.021,"end":865.84,"text":"﹑太複雜了我也不會﹑他說他只能說操作的時候就看我大概是帳戶明細啊﹑他不敢去轉帳﹑大家也都很忙﹑所以他不敢麻煩別人﹑結果後來就是反彈的聲浪排山倒海﹑然後南南各大銀行就維持少數分行運作以後﹑他開始增設﹑大致的基台還派出行動銀行專車﹑好我最後再講最後結論就好了。"},{"start":868.726,"end":888.277,"text":"﹑首爾女大社會福祉學系教授提到﹑數位落差使長輩的社交範圍縮小﹑甚至遭到破壞﹑他們會因此感到孤單孤獨﹑老人輕生率可能提高﹑而縮小生活中的數位落差防止長輩們出現社會疏離感﹑"},{"start":891.559,"end":907.125,"text":"﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡環境是後疫情時代的重要課題﹑打造友善的高齡�"},{"start":923.132,"end":937.015,"text":"﹑關懷據點﹑所有社區﹑這個大學﹑裡面的那個具體生活﹑能力的教導的這個課程﹑這樣你知道你都沒有做﹑基本上你完全不需要思考過這種的問題﹑你自己就沒效﹑謝謝林淑芬委員的資訊﹑感謝委員﹑謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153352","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaada408215c959a214869c0f3e297fc60beba37a180c9b1cd0c0883a82e0276fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:38:05 - 10:53:59","影片長度":"00:15:54","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":954,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-28"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:53:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:38:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時38分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、記者、媒體女士與先生。有請司法院吳秘書長。"],["主席：好，麻煩吳秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好。我想今天大家非常關注包括我非常佩服的林月琴委員，持續在關心兒少保護的事情，那麼我們來看一下，司法院昨天剛開了一個會議，因應割喉案事件，司法院在推「少事法」草案當中，在昨天的院會，對於刑滿三年未再犯者才能塗銷前科，而且可視情況轉換安置輔導跟保護管束。請問秘書長，是不是你們昨天有開這樣子的一個院會？"],["吳秘書長三龍：昨天有開。"],["謝廳長靜慧：是的，有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是喔！少年受管訓處分，在早年1976年增訂了第八十三條之一，本來是宣告完畢後五年內，未再受宣告者，就視為未曾受該宣告，是不是這樣？到1997年，第八十三條之一你們把五年改為三年，增加了轉介處分、不付審理或不付保護處分的裁定，為什麼昨天的院會你們又把它改成「未再因故意觸犯刑罰法律」，才做這樣的規定，能不能說明一下？"],["謝廳長靜慧：大概就是我們有去參考65年當時的塗銷前科，它其實是有一個要件──必須是三年內沒有再觸犯這些刑罰法律，受到管訓的宣告跟刑的宣告。是有這樣一個維持善良品性的要件，我們認為應該是要把它恢復回來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：恢復啦？"],["謝廳長靜慧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以在1976年跟1997年的修訂忽略了這一條，所以你們要恢復就對了？"],["謝廳長靜慧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，除處理少年塗銷機制之外，有沒有其他任何降低少年再犯可能性的作為呢？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，我想一個少年他透過一個犯罪，其實就是一個學習的過程，所以司法介入主要的目的，是要去恢復家庭、教育跟社區的功能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["謝廳長靜慧：所以如何預防再犯？犯罪學裡面的預防再犯是一種方向，現在行政院有犯罪預防方案這樣的一個措施。整個少年司法介入也是要預防再犯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，預防，你講了很多次的預防，謝謝廳長！來，我們來分析一下，其實目前的少年犯罪，跟早年我們想像的戰後嬰兒潮，青少年階段血氣方剛，那麼暴力犯罪的事情占比相對多，其實我們參考很多國家都這樣，暴力犯罪跟人口結構是有關的，當戰後嬰兒潮的人數在進入青少年期到壯年期的時候，他們因為從事暴力犯罪的可能性具有本錢，所以較高；但是我們看看這幾年來，青少年的嫌疑犯24%是涉詐欺，比率是最高的，你們有沒有注意到這個犯罪行為的轉變？"],["謝廳長靜慧：有的，在近幾年來是有這樣的一個趨勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，但是這些屬於詐欺的輕罪，他終結都是以保護管束或者假日輔導為主。我們看一下在這個圖表當中，107年到111年，大概將近6成是保護管束，還有3成是訓誡或是假日輔導，我請教一下，訓誡是由誰為之？假日輔導由誰為之？"],["謝廳長靜慧：訓誡由法官為之，假日生活輔導由少年保護官為之。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，說到關鍵字了──「少年保護官」這5個字。好，如果在過程當中輔導資源不足，我們觀察到少年很容易回頭來投靠幫派，我們來看一下2022年司法業務年報提到，過去10年，受調查的少年三千多人當中，經常犯罪者占了3成，他們在什麼地方經常犯罪呢？從學校的偏差行為到地方政府的少輔會，因為觸法進入少年法院，裁定之後他或者是訓誡，或者是假日輔導，或者是保護管束，或者是安置機構，或者是感化教育。我們來看一下，在學校端，目前「學輔法」的輔導老師，高中每12班才1名，國中每15班才1名。今天有教育部的副署長在，其實我們都看到在三級預防部分，的確是資源有限，是不是這樣子？教育部是不是也覺得資源是有限的？"],["戴副署長淑芬：對，我們會努力爭取，其實包括「學輔法」再修，我們也會增加專業輔導人力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我們今天談的是司法院主責的部分，在保護處分後，你們的聯繫跟轉銜會議是不是由少保官主責呢？根據少年法院與相關機關處理少年事件聯繫辦法第二十八條規定，其實少觀所現在已經改名了，從少觀所出來的收容少年要進行評估，必要的時候得邀集相關主管機關召開資源聯繫會議，要求包括少年法院、社政、教育、輔導、衛生醫療、警政及勞政等參加。因為我過去在地方政府擔任副首長，副首長通常就是一些資源聯繫會報的副主任委員，也就是在主任委員（縣市首長）不能主持會議的時候，都是委由副主任委員出席，副署長，是不是這樣？"],["戴副署長淑芬：對、對，經常都是副市長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都是副市長。可能秘書長對這個業務比較不熟悉，還是交給廳長來回答，聯繫跟轉銜會議誰來主責？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，如果是保護官的業務，會由保護官來主責，但是有些時候像涉及到地方政府的局、處，我們目前有二級聯繫會議，會由地方法院院長跟地方政府的首長去召開相關局處的聯繫會議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，您剛剛講到那個關鍵字啦！其實就這樣一個轉銜機制來講，聯繫會報中行政機關的協調，當然是以這些主管或首長為主，但是對於個案本身的瞭解，是不是少保官最重要？"],["謝廳長靜慧：當然、當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯嘛！好，我們往下看，所以保護管束的成敗與否，關鍵就在少保官，少保官最瞭解個案，也最清楚當他有需要聯繫會報去調度各種資源的時候，他是需求的發動者，是不是這樣子？"],["謝廳長靜慧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，聯繫會報會把這些資源整合進來，我們看少年事件處理法第五十一條，對於少年之保護管束，由少年保護官掌理，他除了應告知少年應遵守的事項外，要常保接觸，要關心他的教養、就醫、求職等等。請問司法院，每名保護管束的少年平均可以見到幾次少保官？"],["謝廳長靜慧：我們這個是有規則規定的，奕賢保護官來回答一下委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：保護官請說。"],["溫保護官奕賢：委員你好。有關保護管束的少年部分，我們有一個要點制定，前半年的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：前半年嗎？你聲音大一點好嗎？"],["溫保護官奕賢：不好意思，前三個月每個月至少要兩次，可視他的情況再增加，如果他的情況比較不穩定，我們甚至可以去做家訪或是校訪等動作。關於報到的話，是至少要兩次。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是前三個月每個月兩次？"],["溫保護官奕賢：對，之後如果狀況比較穩定的話，我們會降成一次。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就至少一次。我們來看一下，每個月只有一次跟少保官接觸，我們舉個例，這個個案是媒體報導的，舉例原文是，阿富說的，詐欺、毒品等這種案件，他們都會互相告知，判個假日生活輔導或進少觀所待幾個月，出來再加個保護管束，對少年來講不痛不癢，沒什麼約束力。你就是每個月去法院給觀護人看一下，根本看不出什麼東西。他不知道是少保官，觀護人是成年犯啦！請問少保官跟個案接觸的時候是要看什麼？"],["溫保護官奕賢：關於報到的部分，我們其實會就他的一些生活狀況，還有就學、就業的情形去做了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是書面的嗎？還是口頭的詢問？"],["溫保護官奕賢：除了口頭以外，我們還會有一些資料詢問，比方說學校的部分，我們會瞭解一下他在學的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，如果你們需要對個案有瞭解，我們看保護處分的量有多大？最近五年少年法院裁定保護處分的案件數，單單是2023年到11月為止就有八千多件，以我們編制數來講，目前是不足，它有缺額，目前還缺了10個，一位少保官要負責100個個案，是不是這樣子？100個個案，少保官一個月要跟他見一次面，要深入地去瞭解他的生活狀況，你覺得夠嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：所以我們這次有提出希望可以增額的計畫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們認為編制不足要增額，可是我跟你講，任何行政機關，不管是你們的法官助理、司法事務官、檢察事務官或檢察官助理，人總統統會跟你講什麼？秘書長，你們遇到這種情形，人總都跟你講什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：他們一般都比較嚴格來把關。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說得比較客氣，他們會說都已經給滿了啦！是不是？而且還會告訴你說，你們的缺額還沒補滿呢？你人都沒有補滿，還找我要人！是不是這樣子？所以我們問題不要只放在編制員額不足，事實上要怎麼想？在編制員額有限的情況下，我們要怎麼樣去增加我們輔導的能量，是不是這樣？","我們來看一下，我們統計過去10年的資料，其實刑事案件當中少年犯罪的主要原因，心理因素差不多占了近五成，社會因素占了兩成，什麼是心理因素呢？就是他個人的問題。什麼叫社會因素呢？外界的引誘，比如說幫派、陣頭把他吸引過去，所以這兩個因素我們都看得清楚，其實就是需要有人去關心他、有人去指導他，是不是這樣子？"],["謝廳長靜慧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是心理因素嘛！心理因素你沒辦法透過外面的部分……"],["謝廳長靜慧：當然，這是社會連結的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，社會連結跟他的心理因素。所以我這邊提醒一下，除了司法院本身之外，更生保護會在做什麼事情？秘書長，你知道更保會在做什麼嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：更生保護就是對於譬如說從矯正機關回到社區，要協助他能夠社會適應。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以它保護的範圍包括什麼？包括受少年管訓處分執行完畢者以及在觀護人觀護中的少年，因為這個法用詞沒有修過，還在保護管束執行中，有沒有包含少年？"],["謝廳長靜慧：當然包括。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然有嘛！"],["謝廳長靜慧：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們查了一下，它過去每年的預算規模大概3億，司法院編預算補助它2億1,000萬，還有它的其他收入，但它每年都用不完，大概還剩四千多萬，累積餘絀還有七億多。廳長，你知道它有剩這麼多錢嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：不知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我幫你整理出來了，既然基金會有餘裕，它可不可以協助少年保護管束業務呢？我們看一下，每年我們有8、9,000件的保護處分案件，它一整年做了多少件？服務的更生人有七百多個，其中少年才一百二十幾個，秘書長，這就要換請教你了，你覺得更保會的能量可不可以拿來好好運用？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個應該要互相支援啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：互相支援，司法院每年編2億1,000萬給更保會，你覺得可不可以透過更保會、透過他們聘用包括專職的社工、心理或非少保官核心業務的人來協助少保官執行保護管束業務？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個應該儘量來……"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，這個2億應該是法務部……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是法務部編的啊？那我問錯人了。法務部來，問你們最好了，徐次長，你覺得這個提議如何？"],["徐次長錫祥：這個部分更生保護會是會來協助，但是因為這些少年人怕被標籤化，所以他們的申請本來就比較沒有那麼的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在不是請他們來申請啦，我的意思是，司法院少保官的編制員額有限，他一個人要負責100個個案，一個月要跟他們見面一次，如果可以透過基金會的協助去聘一些人力來協助少保官，你覺得有沒有可行性？"],["徐次長錫祥：更生保護是需要當事人申請，不過這個部分我們會加強跟少年法庭橫向聯繫跟溝通，我們會提升他的案量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你，你們就有現有法制了，我們看一下，2019年少事法修法採行政先行，對於曝險少年、偏差行為少年，你們都列入輔導之列。所以你們有一個叫少輔會的單位，秘書長或次長，你們知道少輔會嗎？知道嘛！少年輔導委員會設置及輔導實施辦法第二條，為什麼我特別提呢？因為我過去在擔任地方政府副首長、副縣長的時候，常常主持類似的會議，但是當時並沒有少輔會這種東西，是後來少事法修法之後才增加的。這裡面寫地方政府所設置的要整合什麼？包括社政、教育、衛政、戶政、警政、民政、勞政、財政、毒品危害防制等機關，所以這個聯繫中心可以向少年法院提出處理的需求，所以在保護處分結束後，如果能夠整合少輔會的資源，讓少年持續來接受協助，我希望你們要善用地方政府的聯繫會報，把更保會的資源也納入這個聯繫會報當中，讓更保會不是代當事人提出申請，而是由聯繫會報提出。","因為主席已經響鈴了，最後我有三個訴求，為了強化少年離開少觀所、矯正學校後的聯繫、轉銜會議機制，請修正少事法，明訂由少保官主責。秘書長，你可以考慮嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，這個部分本來就是由保護官去執行保護處分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：後面的聯繫跟轉銜會議的機制呢？"],["謝廳長靜慧：當然，現在少事法第四十二條第六項在保護處分執行中，就可以像委員剛剛提到的，包括我們未來可以跟更生保護會去做橫向聯繫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你已經講到第二點了，除了設法增補少保官的編制員額之外，請你們評估運用多元人力資源（如更生保護會），來提供心理社政協助、降低再犯，並於一個月提供報告，你們跟法務部可以嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：我們會跟法務部來洽商。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法務部可以嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：可以，我們會再聯繫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。最後，評估保護處分結束後，要整合少輔會的資源，持續給予非行少年協助，這個部分是不是也跟地方政府聯繫一下，瞭解目前地方政府設置少輔會這樣的聯繫會報之後，它的成效如何，可以嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：是，委員，我們可以利用現在少事法的二級聯繫機制，就是地方政府和地方法院……"],["鍾委員佳濱：提出一個他們實施的成效評估報告。"],["謝廳長靜慧：沒有問題，我們現在已經在運作當中，這個報告可以提出來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝秘書長、謝謝廳長、謝謝次長。"],["主席：等一下我們在11時的時候處理臨時提案，屆時如果有委員正在詢答，就待該位委員詢答完畢之後，即時進行處理。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","下一位請張雅琳進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.18971875,"end":14.239718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.813468750000002,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.454093750000002,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.461593750000002,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.49534375,"end":25.934093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.60909375,"end":27.469718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.63846875,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.55096875,"end":57.540968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.91221875,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":58.485968750000005,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":59.29596875,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.46034375000001,"end":74.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.41596875,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":90.64971875,"end":103.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":103.60971875000001,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.97971875,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.32971875000001,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.97034375000001,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.87721875000001,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":127.74096875000001,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.06409375,"end":139.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.29846875,"end":151.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.13346875000002,"end":167.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.20721875,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.21971875,"end":171.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.70034375,"end":173.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.97846875000002,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.40409375000002,"end":182.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.87159375000002,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":195.56159375000001,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.34159375000002,"end":221.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":222.17346875,"end":225.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.71721875,"end":241.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.42784375000002,"end":243.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.79034375,"end":244.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.95471875,"end":245.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.10221875000002,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.68409375000002,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.50596875000002,"end":268.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.32659375000003,"end":280.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.76346875,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.15034375,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.25034375,"end":336.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.88971875000004,"end":337.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.84284375000004,"end":341.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03"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判個假日生活輔導 經少管所幾個月 出來再加個保護管束對少年來講 不痛不癢 沒有什麼約束力你就根本就是每個月去法院給關護人 他不知道是少保官啦關護人是成年犯啦 給人看一下 根本看不出什麼東西請問少保官跟他們 個案接觸是要看什麼要看什麼"},{"start":491.981,"end":509.939,"text":"關於報告的部分我們其實會就他的一些生活狀況還有就學就業的情形去做一些瞭解那就是書面的嗎?還是口頭的詢問?除了口頭以外我們還會有一些資料詢問好那我們來看一下會跟他瞭解一下他在學的狀況如果你們需要對個案有瞭解我們看保護處分的量有多大你看一下齁"},{"start":510.78,"end":537.079,"text":"在我目前看起來呢我們的這個最近5年來少年法院裁定保護處分的案件數呢單單是2023年到11月為止就超過8000多件那以我們編制數來講呢目前是有不足啦還有缺額目前還缺了10個那一個少保官要負責100個個案是不是這樣子你覺得100個個案一個月他要跟他見一次面要深入的去了解他的生活狀況你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":540.77,"end":559.316,"text":"所以我們這次有提出那個就是希望可以增額的一個計畫所以你們認為編制不足要增額可是我跟你講啊 任何行政機關不管是你們的法官助理、司法事務官、檢察官助理、檢察事務官、檢察官助理或法官助理 通通人總都跟你講什麼秘書長 人總你們遇到這種事 人總都跟你講什麼目前 他們"},{"start":567.346,"end":570.447,"text":"行事案件當中少年犯罪主要原因、心理因素"},{"start":597.119,"end":599.301,"text":"這兩個因素我們都看得清楚其實就是需要個人有人去關心他、有人去指導他,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":619.157,"end":631.282,"text":"這心理因素嘛,心理因素你沒辦法透過外面的社會連結的部分是的,社會連結跟他的心理因素,好,我們現在看那所以呢,其實我這邊提醒一下,司法院本身之外,根深保護會在做什麼事情?那個,秘書長你知道根保護會在做什麼嗎?"},{"start":636.769,"end":656.363,"text":"深深保護就是對於比如說從矯正機關回到社區那要協助他能夠受社會適應所以說他的保護的範圍包括什麼受少年管訓處分執行完畢者還有在關護人關護中的少年因為這個法用詞沒有修過啦他在保護管署執行中有沒有包括我們這個少年"},{"start":657.063,"end":675.534,"text":"當然有嘛我們查了一下他過去呢每年他的預算規模大概3億我們司法院邊預算補助他2億1還有他的其他收入但每年呢大概都用不完都還有剩我4千多萬累計的餘出呢已經還剩了7億多啊聽長你知道他有剩這麼多錢嗎"},{"start":677.741,"end":695.263,"text":"不知道我幫你整理出來了所以我們來看一下那麼既然基金會有餘裕他可不可以協助少年來保護管束業務我們看一下他目前他一整年每年我們有八九千件的保護處分案件他一整年做了多少件"},{"start":696.889,"end":725.424,"text":"福的更生人更生人做了700多個少年的才120幾個您覺得秘書長這就要換你來請教一下了您覺得耕保會的能量可不可以拿來好好運用這個應該要互相支援互相支援所以你覺得司法院每年編2億1000萬給耕保會你覺得可不可以透過耕保會透過他們聘用包括專職的社工、心理或這些非少保官核心業務的人來協助少保官執行這個保護管束業務"},{"start":728.335,"end":737.928,"text":"這個應該盡量來...對,跟委員報告這個部分兩議應該是法務部...是法務部編的啊?那我問錯人了,法務部?來,剛好,法務部來來來,問你們最好了,他們..."},{"start":739.994,"end":754.605,"text":"我們的徐市長,您覺得這個提議這個部分我們更生保護會我們是會來協助但是就是這些少年他們有他"},{"start":758.748,"end":759.669,"text":"司法院議員"},{"start":780.285,"end":799.556,"text":"透過我們基金會的協助可以聘一些人力來協助少保官你覺得有沒有可行性更生保護是需要當事人申請不過這一個部分我們會加強跟少年保庭橫向聯繫跟溝通提升他的案量來我告訴你你們就現有法制來我們看一下"},{"start":800.516,"end":814.244,"text":"來我們2019年齁那個我們的少司法修法才行政先行嘛對於負險少年偏差行為少年我們都列入我們的輔導之列往下看所以呢我們有一個叫少府會我們秘書長或次長你們知道少府會嗎"},{"start":815.492,"end":841.461,"text":"知道嗎 對不對少年輔導委員會的設置及輔導實施辦法第二條為什麼我特別提呢因為我過去在擔任地方政府的副首長的時候我當副縣長的時候我常常主持類似的會議但當時呢並沒有少輔會這種東西是後來我們修法之後少數法修法之後才增加的他這邊寫地方政府所設置的要整合包括什麼社政教育、衛政、戶政、警政、民政、勞政、財政還有毒品危害的防治"},{"start":844.702,"end":872.673,"text":"那所以呢他這些呢他這個聯繫中心他可以向少年法院提出處理的需求所以說在保護組問組結束後如果能夠整合少會的資源讓少年持續來接受協助我希望你們要善用地方這種這個聯繫匯報把耕保會的資源也納入到這個聯繫匯報當中讓耕保會不是代當事人提出申請而是遞由聯繫匯報提出所以我最後的訴求因為主委已經響鈴了齁"},{"start":874.774,"end":881.839,"text":"為了強化少年離開少關所、矯正學校或聯繫轉弦會議的機制,請修正事法明定由少保關主責。"},{"start":885.626,"end":903.521,"text":"這個部分本來就是由保護官去執行保護處分後面的聯繫跟轉銜會議的機制當然現在我們的少事法42條6項在保護處分執行中就是可以像委員你剛提到的包括我們未來可以跟更生保護會去做一個很好的聯繫那你已經講到第二點了"},{"start":904.281,"end":918.026,"text":"除了我們設法增補我們少保官的編制元額之外請你們評估運用多元的人力資源,比如說更生保護會來提供心理、社政的協助降低再犯,並一個月提供報告,可以嗎?你們跟法務部﹗我們會跟法務部這邊來洽商,好嗎?"},{"start":919.266,"end":935.708,"text":"法務部可以嗎?我們可以聯繫。最後,評估保護處分結束後,要整合少府會的資源,持續給予非行少年的協助。這個部分是不是也跟地方政府聯繫一下?瞭解目前地方政府設置了少府會這樣的聯繫匯報之後,它的成效如何?可以嗎?"},{"start":936.329,"end":938.031,"text":"提出一個他們的一個實心的成效評估報告"}]}},{"id":"153351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaa7f50e157a115319cb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cda5d303fbad1cac0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:45:06 - 10:54:16","影片長度":"00:09:10","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":550,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:54:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:45:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":890,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["黃委員仁：主委，恭喜你上任。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。謝謝。"],["黃委員仁：但是我不認識你，因為你也從來沒有來見我。第二個，你認為這個位置可以讓你待多久？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我來就沒有想過要待多久，我來要做事情，不是要守護這個位置。"],["黃委員仁：好，所以現在你不要把屏東鄉公所或者屏東的原民處當作是中央原民會，這個思維你要改變，你要做多久，你心裡要準備，你身邊的人都是壞人，想要無所不用其極把你幹掉，像鍾興華、像杜張梅莊，這是開玩笑的。今天我要講的，我們是以專業取勝，今天你要針對全國原住民的事務跟他的生存權，包含他要延續他的生命跟歷史，這個責任在你身上。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員仁：我們是屬於南島語系的民族，反觀我們整個南島語系的民族，我們有2.5億的人口在看你，你不能把我們原住民當笑話。我現在跟你講一下，剛剛我們很多委員問你，一問三不知！你上來應該心理上就要有所準備，你既然歷練了20年，在地方為原住民的事務都已經在做了，應該駕輕就熟，可是很多委員問你，什麼都是一問三不知。","所以現在我要告訴你的是，原住民的議題裡面，今天是一個非常關鍵，而且在國際認同我們臺灣，甚至聯合國在臺灣是一個少數民族的夥伴關係，也是屬於列入觀察員，你要記得，今天你一言一行都是對原住民有相關，未來要向下沉淪還是要向上提升，這個就是你現在要擔任主委的一個關鍵。之前剛知道是你上任的時候，我就第一個打電話給你，你後面連一個電話也都沒有。第二個，約我的時間，你竟然落空，而且連一通電話也沒有，這是藐視本席。","其次，我們今天看的是你未來的施政重點，也就是我們賴總統的施政重點，其中平埔族的身分權，包含民族自治跟自然資源共管、強化健康服務、雙軌教育體系、都會原權的福利及多領域人才培育及持續深化，打造貼近原住民族的各項措施。這個不是很深化、深入對原住民未來的發展，現在已經有將近五成都在都會區裡面，應該再涉入一題叫居住正義，你能不能跟賴總統講一下，你未來的施政裡面，居住正義是針對都會區的發展，這是一個非常重要的議題，你能不能告訴給總統，注入居住正義這一塊？你回答我。"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。關於居住正義的部分，我可以來做一個完整的報告。"],["黃委員仁：完整的報告？好，因為現在有急迫性，為什麼？現在房價不斷在增長，我們很多年輕人、很多的原住民，包含都會區的這些家人，要買房子不容易啊！現在要取得土地，處長你站在旁邊，我沒叫你喔！現在很多在都會區的原住民對居住正義的渴望跟需求，有多麼重要，知不知道？"],["曾主任委員智勇：知道。"],["黃委員仁：好，知道。那居住正義這一塊是在你們整個施政方向裡面，雖然每一項都非常的重要，可是目前具有急迫性的就是居住正義，在都會區裡面如何解決他們的居住問題，這就是你最大的一個難題，也是要突破的一個問題，所以這個就是你現在要用心的，我不講未來的建設什麼的，下一次我再好好的問你，我希望你趕快進入狀況。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員仁：未來的施政方向，尤其在都會區，我在都會區將近30年，我瞭解都會區的心聲，當然在整個鄉鎮，他們有急迫性的除了土地正義之外，第二個就是我們如何在循環經濟裡面產生觀光產業，包含原住民族屬於自己的原保地能夠放寬多功能的使用，這就是目前你要突破的議題，為什麼？土地是我們的母親，既然政府在原基法裡面已經賦予我們保障，你就好好把原基法好好的深化、深耕，把這些一一的落實，不要只是一個書面，包含文字遊戲，以及把我們原住民混淆到現在都還不清楚歷史的回歸，歷史的回歸也應該要給我們真正正視原住民土地的正義，既然原基法裡面保障我們，那你就好好的一個一個的落實。屬於原保地，原住民有自己的原保地，除了不破壞林務用地，包含山坡地、水源地之外，應該賦予給他更大的使用管理辦法。土地的使用管理辦法能夠放寬，讓他有一個來自循環經濟，他能夠去使用，像自己私人的土地一樣使用，這就是你要思考的地方，我會不斷地問你的進度、如何推展，這是國人目前最急迫性，對原保地的管理辦法跟放寬使用辦法裡面，本席已經提出屬於土地的放寬使用。我們在土地裡面，既然在原住民傳統領域的土砂，包含我們的漂流木跟土石，在傳統領域遇到天災之後，應該由原住民優先來採用，列為他的砂石銀行，這就是本來賦予給我們的原基法裡面，在我的傳統領域土砂流失的話，也應該給原住民做砂石銀行，造就原住民的經濟，這才是你現在的重點。好，以上，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員的質詢、謝謝曾主委。","繼續我們請吳琪銘召委。吳琪銘召委質詢後，我們休息5分鐘，好不好？可以嗎？請問一下在場委員，可以嗎？好，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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這個不是很深化深入對原住民未來的發展"},{"start":245.663,"end":271.783,"text":"今天在都會區裡面現在已經有將近五成都在都會區裡面應該在涉入一題叫居住正義你能不能跟總統跟賴總統講一下你未來的施政裡面居住正義是一個針對都會區的發展這是一個非常重要的你能不能告訴給總統注入居住正義這一塊你回答我"},{"start":277.014,"end":299.262,"text":"可以。關於基礎正義的部分,我們可以來做一個完整的報告。完整的報告,好。因為現在是急迫性。為什麼?現在房價不斷地在增長。我們很多的年輕人,很多的原住民,包含都會區的這些家人。"},{"start":311.825,"end":330.674,"text":"現在很多在都會區的原住民對居住正義的渴望跟需求有多麼重要知不知道知道好知道那居住正義這一塊是在整個你們的施政方向裡面雖然每一項都非常的重要"},{"start":331.374,"end":349.088,"text":"關於目前急迫性的就是居住正義在都會區裡面如何解決他們的居住的問題這就是你最大的一個難題也是要突破的一個問題所以這個就是你現在要用用心的現在我不講"},{"start":350.219,"end":369.685,"text":"不講這一些未來的建設什麼 下一次我好好的要問你那我希望你趕快進入狀況 趕快進入狀況未來的施政的方向尤其在都會區我在都會區將近30年我了解都會區的心聲"},{"start":371.105,"end":399.364,"text":"當然我們在整個鄉鎮他們急迫性的除了我們的土地正義之外第二個就是我們如何在循環經濟裡面產生它的觀光產業包含放寬原住民族屬於自己的原保地能夠放寬多功能的使用這就是目前你要突破的議題為什麼"},{"start":401.126,"end":402.789,"text":"土地是我們的母親"},{"start":404.079,"end":431.693,"text":"既然政府在原基法裡面已經複製給我們的保障你就好好的這一些原基法裡面好好的生化生根把這一些一一的落實不要只是一個書面包含文字遊戲一些把我們原住民毀謠到現在都還不清楚歷史的回歸"},{"start":433.426,"end":457.617,"text":"歷史的回歸也應該要給我們真正正式原住民的土地的正義既然原基法裏面保障我們的話那你就好好的一個一個的落實屬於原保地有自己的原住民的原保地應該除了不破壞這個零物用地包含山坡地包含水源地之外"},{"start":460.298,"end":484.525,"text":"應該復議給他更大的使用管理辦法土地的使用管理辦法能夠放寬能夠放寬讓他有一個來自循環經濟他能夠去使用屬於像自己的私人的土地一樣使用這就是你要思考的地方我會不斷的問你的進度如何推展"},{"start":485.946,"end":506.18,"text":"這是國人現在目前最急迫性對原保地的管理辦法跟放寬使用辦法裡面本席已經提出這個所謂土地的放寬使用我們在土地裡面主席謝謝再給我幾分鐘接一分鐘就好"},{"start":507.199,"end":530.551,"text":"我們既然我們在原住民的傳統領域的土砂包含我們的漂流木漂流木跟土石在傳統領域天災遇到天災之後應該有原住民優先的來採用來採用列為他的砂石銀行這就是"},{"start":532.312,"end":547.581,"text":"負議給我們的《原基法》裏面在我的傳統領域這個土砂裏面流失的話也應該給原住民做殺死銀行造就原住民的經濟這才是你現在的重點以上謝謝主席好謝謝黃仁委員的質詢謝謝珍珠"}]}},{"id":"153350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba327d17c691066fa3cb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cd308a408405d80ecd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:37:32 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Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":435,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:44:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:37:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":870,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時37分）請曾主委。喝口水休息一下。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝主委，剛剛其實有官員做了一個不太好的示範，我們美惠委員寬宏大量沒有說要移送反質詢的部分啦！","主委，聽了你的報告，知道你原本從屏東三地門來，可以為臺灣原住民族來做事，我覺得要給你一些力量，也要給你一點時間。但是你的報告裡面，我發現你充滿信心的有兩塊，我聽起來，第一塊，就是對於原住民博物館的進度。原住民博物館的進度，你剛剛的報告裡面是在2032年要完成、要營運，上一個原民會的主委從2016年到2024年，任期8年，從今天開始算到2032年也是8年，這8年你必須要做的事情，除了把原民博物館完成營運之外，中間過程還有很多的挑戰。包含你剛剛說平埔族的正名，剛剛張宏陸委員講得非常精彩，平埔族文化界定等等，有太多、太廣泛的事情要做，我想這個也不是你一時之間可以急著……你剛剛在回應的時候，有講出20世紀日治時期的一個研究報告，我想跟目前我們真正要去調查平埔的這些不管是文化，或者是族人，或者是身分，或者是界定等等的，都有非常非常大的不同。","我想主委除了要面對很多的挑戰，我也要建議主委，其實如果有信心做，這8年間有很多關於原住民權益的問題，包含我們今天準備要來討論的設籍在平地都會原住民的權益，要不要制定相關的條例，來維護他們的權益等等的問題。我想在委員會裡面也有資深……召委不好意思，你剛剛說你22年。資深的這些委員，不斷地在提出原住民進步的方案，也有包含陳瑩委員、伍麗華委員，不斷地在提出原住民權益方案等等，這些都是主委要跟得上的。主委，我剛剛這樣講，你有沒有信心做8年？你有沒有準備要做8年？"],["曾主任委員智勇：其實是這樣，這不是做幾年的問題……"],["李委員柏毅：你的報告裡面，2032年原住民博物館要完成、營運啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，我們會在這個任期內儘快的有進度出來，至於8年後、成立之後我還是不是主委，那不重要啊！"],["李委員柏毅：原住民博物館最重要的精神是什麼？主委，未來原住民博物館營運之後，你希望它可以帶來什麼樣的效益？"],["曾主任委員智勇：它是臺灣第一座的國家級原住民博物館，希望以國家的高度來呈現……"],["李委員柏毅：你不要看稿念，你跟我講。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，就是希望以國家的高度，來把國立原住民博物館做好，我們不希望它只是臺灣的原住民博物館，更是南島語族的博物館，因為我們臺灣很多的文物，我們去友好的國家看，不管是帛琉，不管到東馬，不管到紐西蘭，都有很多我們的文物已經流到那邊去了。現在我們希望把臺灣還有的文物……沒有的話就跟部落來借展，我們原住民文化園區就已經有收藏1,375件的文物了，準備將來直接無縫接軌到原住民博物館。甚至原住民博物館的人才，也就是將來要做原住民博物館業務的人，現在都已經在受訓，請我們臺灣四個大的博物館，譬如說臺博館還有史前館來協助，人也在訓練，我們不是說8年後才開始訓練，我們都已經準備好了。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，我想給你一個建議，你剛剛講的其實都是物，高雄市政府曾經在蓋流行音樂中心之前，它做了哪一些事情？它舉辦很多動態型的包含音樂會，包含展覽，包含活動等等的，其實這一個流行音樂中心興建的期間也有可能是8年，但是這8年期間，高雄市政府也孕育出非常非常多的活動，包含大港開唱，非常多的音樂季都在這8年興建的期間去舉辦。我想原博館帶來的不會只有您剛剛講的文物等等，我希望它是包含原住民相關動態的活動等等的，不斷的舉辦，不斷的吸引，不斷的讓有興趣的人關注原住民博物館，主委，我覺得原民會也可以朝這個方向來努力。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：另外，有關於設籍在平地原住民的部分，目前已經超過整個原住民人數的一半了，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["李委員柏毅：如果要朝向修訂設籍平地原住民這個條例的權益的話，其實跟地方政府有非常非常大的相關。在這邊也要建議我們主委，所有有關的縣市政府，除了一定要去走訪，一定要去聽取大家的意見之外，這些地方的公聽會，我想也是必須要去聽取的，這個是主委刻不容緩馬上要做的事情。雖然今天是你上任的第11天，但是我們沒有時間等待，希望主委按部就班，趕快去做好每一件事情。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢，謝謝主委。我覺得今天委員大家都非常的善良，也對主委釋出非常多的善意，所以希望主委今天回去了之後，趕快加緊你的腳步，趕快瞭解一下原民會裡面的業務好嗎？謝謝。","繼續我們請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6215937500000001,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.98784375,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.67096875,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.78471875,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.74971875,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.68596875,"end":32.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.81909375,"end":34.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.557218750000004,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.95346875,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.572843750000004,"end":47.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.570968750000006,"end":55.414718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.29221875,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.102218750000006,"end":62.265968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.143468750000004,"end":64.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.28659375000001,"end":66.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.07534375,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.12534375,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.97721875,"end":75.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.23846875000001,"end":78.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.88784375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.35159375,"end":83.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.60409375,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.32909375,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.40846875000001,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.36971875,"end":104.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.97659375,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.16221875000001,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.06909375000001,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.32096875,"end":116.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.70471875000001,"end":124.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.05784375,"end":129.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.46221875,"end":131.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.10721875000002,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.38909375,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.42221875,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.49284375000002,"end":153.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.16721875000002,"end":162.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.25846875000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.73034375,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.96159375000002,"end":185.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.72346875000002,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.00534375,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.98409375,"end":192.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.32159375,"end":192.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.33846875,"end":192.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.50721875000002,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.80221875,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.03784375,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.97284375,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.77346875,"end":224.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.80721875,"end":218.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.48096875000002,"end":225.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.51471875000001,"end":237.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.82596875000002,"end":232.90596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.96846875000003,"end":239.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.43659375000001,"end":241.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.86659375000002,"end":250.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.79346875000002,"end":251.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.68784375,"end":297.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.52034375,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.97534375000004,"end":302.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.92034375000003,"end":302.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.93721875,"end":306.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.71721875000003,"end":306.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.69596875,"end":310.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.10471875,"end":312.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.16346875,"end":316.58909375},{"speak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normal，新的一個常態將會改變整個世界的秩序，過去也許人家覺得這只是兩岸問題，臺灣要去面對，可是現在發現這是中國有問題，世界要來面對，所以我覺得臺灣是順著這個國際趨勢來講，中共不只是對臺灣有主權的野心，它在整個擴張上面已經引起世界的反應。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，講得非常好。我必須再強調，剛才部長提到新的現狀，也就是中國現在要打破均勢，中國不要維持現狀，但在這個狀況之下，過去臺灣都是在中國的框架之下被討論，所以你看在馬英九前總統時期，甚至在更早之前的陳水扁前總統時期，只要談到臺灣，大概就是在中國的框架之下，所以臺灣沒有本身的主體性，沒有談到臺灣的產業、沒有談到臺灣的經濟、沒有談到臺灣的文化，現在剛好是一個既是最大的挑戰，也是最大的機會，所以我們很希望外交部能夠扮演起更重要的角色。因為我們剛才提到的，包含部長講的，你從法律開始講，你從過去的國際條約開始講，你從每一個訊息開始說，因為我們要面對中國的挑戰就是訊息戰、法律戰、金融戰，甚至是所有的論述我們都要做好準備。","在中共非戰爭脅迫行動裡面的策略，還有一個重點，就是用廣泛的宣傳降低美國公眾和政治領袖支持臺灣的意願。這個部分我想部長昨天拜訪我們辦公室的時候也有提到，跟國會參眾議員之間的互動之外，跟行政系統上面的互動，部長可不可以解釋一下，或者是反映一下，怎麼樣反制降低美國公眾和政治領袖支持臺灣的意願？"],["林部長佳龍：其實中共是拿臺灣對全世界發動了所謂的三戰：法律戰、心理戰跟輿論戰，透過它現在數位極權所掌控的科技，它也進行長臂的管轄甚至要統治，所以這個已經侵犯到很多國家的內政，跟他們對於基本人權的保障。在這種情況之下，我覺得臺灣在面對他們所謂的灰色地帶作戰或是認知作戰的時候，臺灣的經驗很寶貴，全世界都想學。譬如說中國跟俄羅斯，中國就在教俄羅斯怎麼樣透過俄烏戰爭之後背離歐美，這種所謂的認知作戰。臺灣是遭受他們攻擊的第一線，這個臺灣的價值就出來了，所以我們的價值外交，這個也是另外一種臺灣存在的價值。","總體上來講，因為現在中國所採取企圖改變現狀、改變國際秩序，已經讓中國成為一個潛在大家共同的挑戰，要一起來因應。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後，請教部長，關於退職軍官、退職的這些跟國家安全相關的人員，如果進入中國、進入大陸地區者，不得從事妨礙國家安全或利益之活動。我想請教的是，其實現在不僅僅是退役的將官曾經到中國，甚至在中國重要的政治場所裡面發表對臺灣不利的言論之外，有一些退役、退休的外交官也常常有類似這樣的作法，請問外交部有什麼相應的方式來去避免。因為我必須強調，廣泛而持久的認知心理戰也好，或者是透過宣傳降低本國或者是他國公眾支持臺灣的意願都很嚴重，我想請教有沒有相關的內規，或者是未來有沒有什麼修法的方向？"],["林部長佳龍：因為臺灣是一個民主的國家，我們也有法治，所以對於所謂進出兩岸之間的公務人員，特別是外交官，我想我們都是一個個的個案，要很具體地去瞭解，其他就是依法行政。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.98846875,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.77284375,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.970968750000001,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.98346875,"end":8.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.485343750000002,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.98721875,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.35721875,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.98971875,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.19846875,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.25596875,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.52034375,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.532218750000006,"end":61.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.79346875,"end":64.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.93221875,"end":67.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.95284375,"end":70.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.61909375,"end":72.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.13346875,"end":80.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.57534375,"end":80.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.25034375,"end":100.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.52284375,"end":92.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.90971875000001,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.96034375,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.04971875000001,"end":131.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.24659375000002,"end":143.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.43471875,"end":162.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.90846875,"end":168.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.11846875,"end":169.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.38409375,"end":176.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.16784375,"end":191.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.47346875000002,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.35096875000002,"end":208.45409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.69034375,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.70221875000001,"end":215.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.28409375,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.28784375,"end":222.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.62909375,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.65784375,"end":229.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.29471875000002,"end":234.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.16721875000002,"end":236.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.25971875000002,"end":249.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.37596875000003,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.51784375,"end":345.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.58034375,"end":358.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.75971875000005,"end":372.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.69846875,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SP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Powerpoint這邊"},{"start":46.159,"end":71.953,"text":"這個2024年的5月有一場兩岸選者面對面那活動是在廈門大學舉辦的那其中有包含臺灣統一聯盟黨的黨主席那這位黨主席也是教授他過去也曾經是外交官那裡面有提到說相關關於一個中國原則的論述我想請教部長您看到這邊"},{"start":73.214,"end":100.93,"text":"演出貼文之後有什麼想法跟看法?裡面有什麼錯誤的訊息你希望能夠來給予澄清?我想中共有他們的使觀跟對這個法律他們的解釋不過如果以涉及到的台灣地位來講那他舉例的這幾個其實都不是在國際法上這個是就是具有國際法直接效力"},{"start":100.93,"end":101.571,"text":"請問部長,上述的看法你怎麼看?"},{"start":123.103,"end":142.438,"text":"因為這個如果從國際法的角度當然是舊青山合約是最重要的那對2758號決議因為這個衍生後面最接近的就是這個聯大的那個決議那這個決議中共最近又有進一步法律戰要把它等同於一中原則"},{"start":143.659,"end":169.43,"text":"事實上2758決議美國講得很清楚世界各國的民主國家也就這個只處理的中國代表權不涉及台灣的地位所以這也是為什麼我們現在要參加國際組織不是被一中原則綁住更何況各國有不同版本的一中政策不以美國來講他的一中政是建立在台灣關係法三個公報再加六項保證那所以"},{"start":170.45,"end":191.241,"text":"對於像美國國會議員來他遵循的可能台灣關係法更是對他們有直接法律效力沒錯所以部長一中原則就是不等同於一中政策嘛對不對對是不是可以再簡單的跟我們全國國民講一下到底一中原則中國的一中原則是荒謬在哪邊那各國的一中政策是不同在哪裡特別是美國的"},{"start":193.413,"end":221.959,"text":"美國都常講他們版本各國也可以有各國的版本台灣也是我們可以有自己的版本涉及到的一些兩岸政策那一中原則因為中共壟斷對一個中國的解釋他的三段論很清楚就是他世界上只有一個中國那這一個台灣是中國的一部分那中華人民共和國代表中國所以他連環套之後我們只要進入一中原則台灣的主權就是被中華人民共和國代表"},{"start":222.999,"end":233.208,"text":"可是國際上都不認為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣的名義也是如此因為我們去參加國際組織只要你開始接受一中原則簡單來講"},{"start":235.219,"end":257.25,"text":"你就變成可能另外一個香港因為一中原則處理就是台灣的主權是歸屬啊所以這個時候呢我們要去爭取人權比如說啊我們加入世界衛生組織我們是一種人權可是如果你犧牲主權那你也換不到人權這個就是現在我們全世界對中國一中原則他認為說他壟斷了解釋那不斷的去啊造成這個改變現狀"},{"start":259.771,"end":282.021,"text":"謝謝部長所以剛才我們提供部長一個機會的意思就是說我們就像你報告裡面講到中國持續在國際場域來鞏固一中的格局不管是用歷史文件用他們的論述用他們的延環套這種方式用一中原則來去壟斷對中國論述的整個在國際社會的聲音那這些都是對我們是有傷害的"},{"start":282.381,"end":308.377,"text":"所以透過部長也好或者是我們各位在場的每位外交官也好這每一個場合裡面要確實的把論述從法律的條文也好到我們現在的國際現實的政治也好一一的都要去述明那我必須再強調不管是現任的外交官或者是以後卸任的外交官我們對國家的責任都還是一樣重要對於台灣的國際地位跟空間的論述我們要確實要澄清論述絕對不能夠輸論述絕對不能夠填"},{"start":310.618,"end":310.738,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":329.999,"end":333.281,"text":"美國戰爭研究所與美國企業研究所聯合發表《從脅迫到投降,中國如何不戰而奪台》"},{"start":345.686,"end":368.664,"text":"恐怕會在賴清的總統的四年任期之間軍事、經濟、訊息還有網路四大領域分階段的來去禁閉台灣那來去分化台灣社會來去嚇阻台灣的反對中國共產黨的人士如果說四年後的時機成熟那中國可能甚至是假意去遞出和平的訊息會提出所謂的和平方案"},{"start":374.166,"end":390.414,"text":"關於這個部分我想要請教部長因為這個不是只跟國防相關這跟外交也有相關這跟國安外交甚至是內政全部都有相關在外交部長的立場上你怎麼看這個部分"},{"start":392.812,"end":419.297,"text":"其實沒有主權就沒有人權也沒有產權這個是現在全世界的一個對台灣的支持因為台灣已經是民主的國家至於說台灣內部對於國家的定位或者是什麼樣的走向那是民主過程的一部分可是對外來代表的話其實現在國際法上面有一個趨勢就是和平手段就是這個從G7在廣島"},{"start":421.963,"end":436.211,"text":"大家共同的發言就是為什麼中共企圖把台灣問題變成好像中國的內政要把台海內海化而世界各國的反應不是因為台灣而已而是因為這一個改變所謂的"},{"start":437.111,"end":437.131,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":463.899,"end":488.155,"text":"這個講得非常好那我必須再強調剛才部長提到的新的現狀比如說中國現在要打破軍事中國不要維持現狀那在這個狀況之下過去台灣都是在中國的框架之下被討論所以你看在馬英九前總統時期甚至在更早時期的陳水扁前總統時期只要談到台灣大概就是在中國的框架之下所以台灣沒有本身的主體性沒有談到台灣的產業沒有談到台灣的經濟沒有談到台灣的文化"},{"start":490.376,"end":518.055,"text":"所以現在剛好是一個既是最大的挑戰也是最大的機會所以我們很希望外交部能夠扮演起更重要的角色因為我們剛才提到的包含部長講的你從法律開始講你從過去的國際條約開始講你從每一個訊息開始說因為我們要面對中國的挑戰就是信息戰、法律戰、金融戰甚至是所有的論述我們都要做好準備在這個中共的非戰爭脅迫行動裡面的策略還有一個重點"},{"start":518.735,"end":541.455,"text":"就是用廣泛的宣傳降低美國公眾和政治領袖支持台灣的意願這個部分我想部長在昨天拜訪我們辦公室的時候也有提到說跟國會的參眾議員之間的互動之外跟行政系統上面的互動部長各位解釋一下或者是要反映一下怎麼樣來反制降低美國公眾和政治領袖支持台灣的意願"},{"start":542.216,"end":568.997,"text":"是,其實中共是拿台灣對全世界其實發動了所謂的三戰法律戰、心理戰跟輿論戰那透過因為現在它數位集權所掌控的科技它也進行長臂的管轄甚至要統治所以這已經侵犯到很多國家的內政跟他們對於基本人權的保障那在這種情況之下我覺得台灣對面對所謂他們的灰色作戰"},{"start":572.138,"end":596.023,"text":"臺灣的經驗很寶貴全世界都想學比如說現在中國跟俄羅斯中國就在教俄羅斯怎麼樣透過俄烏戰爭之後對於歐美這一種所謂的認知作戰那臺灣是在受他們攻擊的第一線這個臺灣的價值就出來了所以我們價值外交這個也是另外一種臺灣存在的價值"},{"start":597.643,"end":613.095,"text":"所以這個總體上來講因為現在中國所採取的企圖改變現狀改變國際秩序已經讓這個中國成為一個潛在就是大家共同的一個挑戰那一起來因應"},{"start":614.031,"end":639.929,"text":"最後請教部長關於我們退職的軍官退職的這些跟國家安全相關的人員那如果進入中國進入大陸地區者不得從事防害國家安全或利益之活動那我想請教說其實現在不僅僅是退役的將官曾經到中國甚至在中國的這個重要的政治場所裡面發表對台灣不利的言論之外"},{"start":640.669,"end":663.576,"text":"有一些退役的外交官退休的外交官那也常常有類似這樣的做法請問外交部有什麼樣相應的方式來去避免因為我必須強調管放而持久的認知心理戰也好或者是說透過宣傳降低本國或者是他國的公眾支持台灣的意願都很嚴重我想請教有沒有相關的內規或者是未來有沒有什麼修法的方向"},{"start":665.009,"end":665.029,"text":"謝謝部長,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153348","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153348","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebacf825d8743fbf0841766e5648a1e6b71beba37a180c9b1cd6e2ee15e05c91bec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:33:46 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10:44:50","影片長度":"00:11:04","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【5月27日、5月29日及5月30日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":664,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-14"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:44:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:33:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時33分）主席，首先有請劉主委。"],["主席：我們再請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員超明：劉主委好。劉主委，你從企業界來到政府機關，尤其來到重要的內閣單位，我剛剛聽到大國發會的時代要回來了，因為我們的賴總統有特別指示，以後參加國發會，部長都要參加你所主持的各部門的討論，這個非常重要，你一定要堅持下來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：不是謝謝我，要堅持、要做事情！你是從資誠管理顧問公司過來的，我看了天下雜誌的一篇報導，它說你常常看到別人看不到的問題，大家稱讚你。資誠會計師事務所跟資誠管理顧問公司，可以說是在國際上有名的一種聯合會計師，當然看的場面非常多，今天我要請教你一個問題，你說答應入閣的一個主要原因是你對下一代感到憂心忡忡，你為什麼會對下一代感到憂心忡忡？從民進黨執政8年，賴總統都把年輕人帶來非常有希望，結果臺灣的青年非常優秀，那你怎麼會對臺灣的下一代感到憂心忡忡？你告訴我原因，企業界要講實話，不要像政治人物這樣，講來講去，那邊一套這邊一套，來，你跟我講，為什麼你對下一代憂心忡忡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實這世界本來就沒有完美的時刻啦，所以我是一個比較希望不斷的改善，我自己的小孩剛好也是年輕人，我就很想說，能不能弄一個更好的未來，更好的未來，不是說現在不好，只是更好的未來，因為臺灣其實明顯的是一個幸福社會，可是在長期的發展裡面，我們怎麼去讓大家過得更好。"],["陳委員超明：我相信你也碰到很多我們下一代的問題，今天你站這個位置不敢講出來，我為什麼特別提醒你這句話？下一代你憂心忡忡，國發會主委講是這一代，表示我對我們臺灣的整體環境非常擔憂，這是第一點我要提醒你的，政治現在已經是非不分了，企業是以利潤為基礎，經營管理為基礎，政治是以選票為基礎，你先要認清楚這一點。第二點，你自己講說，在業界打滾已經有具備我們產業的實務跟前瞻趨勢的條件，那個標題幫你寫成這樣，你要把自己變成鯰魚，推動公部門的平靜池水。你有講到你太太是高層公務文官出身的，說我們文官裡面的人才非常多，水準非常高，但你怎麼說你進來要變成一個鯰魚，把公務機關攪動它平靜的池水，因為你手中握有重要資源，要好好改善，我認同你的觀點，但是你站在這裡，我要跟你說一些事情，你這句話請闡釋給我聽。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是沒有看那篇報導啦，我不知道它為什麼這樣寫喔，但是從我過去每換一個職務的話，我都希望這個職務跟過去不一樣，我們都希望去更進化嘛，所以我……"],["陳委員超明：你是這麼重要的人物，他寫完稿一定要給你過目啊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：媒體不會給我過目。"],["陳委員超明：天下雜誌也不是媒體，天下雜誌也不是隨隨便便的雜誌，我現在跟主委講，好好提拔你國發會的人才，這幾年他們被壓制得很慘，多做多錯，少做少錯，他們已經不願意發言，你上級指示我才來做，你要瞭解他們的心態。大家都很優秀，大家都想為臺灣、為這個國家盡一分的心力，但是政治把他們搞得無所適從，我相信在下面的官員，你們心有戚戚焉啦，我都瞭解、都談過。我要強調的是既然你是從企業界過來的，資誠會計師事務所我也很熟，所以我大概瞭解你的觀念，從這裡面去好好提拔優秀的人才，裡面很多人才，但是大家也沒有必要為這個國家現在要這麼努力，政治，我告訴你裡面的原因，你有困難可以來請教我，搞不好我點出你幾個問題，能替你解決問題。","再來，你談到賴總統有兩次跟你見面，要你在內閣會議裡面開處方，說我們不但要有點線，我們還要全面，你為我們國家經濟的發展，你處方要如何開？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：關於這個處方，我們現在就是，在我剛剛的報告有特別提到，第一個，我們要拉成長的核心主軸，我們現在拉兩個核心主軸是半導體跟AI。第二個部分，我們從我們在臺灣市占率超過15%的企業裡面，將產業撈出來，我們現在挑了六個產業，它的市占率超過，在全球市占率超過16%，我們希望把這些產業都拉到市占率超過30%以上，造成對全球的影響力。創造比較高，就是規模比較大的企業以後，讓臺灣得到更大的保障之外，也可以提供員工更好的薪水。"],["陳委員超明：我有看到裡面在談的，你說臺灣的晶圓製造、封裝測試，包括你們這邊提的，已經占了整個世界百分之六十幾，機械製造業占了IC產業，臺灣的電子產業裡面，你說要發展AI的一個設計能力，現在占全世界24%，可以翻成48%，這個比較快。但是你要知道，除了你講的AI跟臺灣晶圓的製造業要持續維持一個領先的地位，但你知道現在其他的產業不怎麼好過嗎？我不曉得傳統產業、機械產業等產業你有沒有深入了解，現在大家都一窩蜂追著改，會不會產生荷蘭病？我請你特別注意這點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，這個的確我這邊有在注意，產業的均衡裡面我們有做過數據分析，的確有不均衡的問題。"],["陳委員超明：我有看到你做這個分析……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們需要去改善。"],["陳委員超明：我還特別去讀，看到你頭腦的思維是怎樣，結果這點不錯，要占就要占世界的首要地位，占了最起碼30%，你在那邊是這麼寫的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員超明：我講的你聽得清楚嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我聽得清楚。"],["陳委員超明：我怕我國語不標準。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我聽得懂。"],["陳委員超明：最後一個問題，主委，你說有朋友跟你講，說你當這個官叫做流水的官，這些你手下的公務人員叫做鐵打的兵，我欣賞哪一點？大家都在捧台積電，說它最棒、最好，其實我跟你講，賺的錢都是外國人拿去，我們只占了24%，但是我欣賞你講的一句話，你說台積電吸走我們臺灣大量的人才和資源，業界怨聲載道。真的是怨聲載道，它的薪水一高，第一個抓聯發科的人到台積電，聯發科又要抓其他產業的人到聯發科，我都碰到，但上一次我一直在講這個問題，大家馬耳東風，只要有錢賺，一直往前衝，我不反對，甚至我們也設立半導體學院要培養人才，結果到歐洲、美國，我們自己人才不夠了，我們還要送給他，這個是國安資料，是臺灣維持命脈的一個方式。還有一點我最不滿，我在立法院常常講，高通7億美金的罰款，我們竟然用它來投資的名義弄掉，結果它薪水特別高，高通又把台積電的人才拉到它那邊去，7億的設備我們臺灣人都用不到，7億美金！我們臺灣的政府不給家奴，寧與外人，我就不知道國家怎麼那麼怕美國，這個你好好瞭解一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["陳委員超明：你是產業界出身的，高通那7億美元，臺灣到底能得到什麼，能有貢獻出來，把罰款變成它的投資，然後它去補貼，薪水非常高，反而打我們臺灣的產業，我不知道政策在哪裡。你是企業界來的，我希望你講實話，官場還有很多那個，不要怕，做對的事情、為臺灣的事情，做出正確的一條路，要企業這麼想。我是把你整個讀完，我要瞭解你的邏輯，好好的發揮一下，我講的你聽懂嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：聽懂，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：到底是有還是沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有啦！"],["陳委員超明：雖然國會五法通過，但是我們都不會這樣，那實在有些太可惡的事情我們才會這樣做，但是你來好好做，我們會支持，國發會很重要，規劃國家未來的發展及前景，我希望你好好努力。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在休息3分鐘。","休息（10時44分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"],["主席（陳委員超明代）：現在我們繼續開會。","請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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這個的確我這邊有在注意產業的均衡裡面我們有做過數據分析的確有不均衡的問題我們需要去改善看到你頭腦的思維是怎樣結果這點不錯"},{"start":469.637,"end":497.749,"text":"要站就要站世界的首要地位站了最起碼要30%你是在那邊這麼寫的啊是的我講的你聽得清楚嗎我聽得清楚我怕我國語不標準我聽得清楚好最後一個問題那個主席李毅所有朋友跟你講說你當這個官叫做流水的官公務人員這些你手下叫做鐵塔的兵"},{"start":498.871,"end":520.713,"text":"我欣賞那一點大家都在捧台積電說他最棒最好其實我跟你講賺的錢都是外國人拿去我們只佔了24%但是你又講了一句話我欣賞你說台積電吸走我們台灣大量的人才和資源"},{"start":522.653,"end":549.006,"text":"業界怨書宰盜真的是怨書宰盜他薪水一高第一個抓蓮花客人到台積電蓮花客要抓其他產業的人到蓮花我都碰到但上一次我一直在講這問題大家馬爾東風只有有錢賺這個一直往前衝我不反對甚至我們也把人才設立的一個"},{"start":554.196,"end":564.533,"text":"我們自己人才不夠的我們要私送給他們這個是國安資料是台灣維持命脈的一個方式還有一點我最不滿"},{"start":565.831,"end":591.277,"text":"我在立法院常常講我們高通的7億美金的罰款我們竟然用他來投資的名義把他弄掉結果他薪水特別高高通又把台積隊的人才拉到他那邊去7億裡面的設備我們台灣人都用不到7億美金咧咱台灣的政府不給我們這個"},{"start":592.898,"end":618.045,"text":"不給家農領以外人我就不知道說到這點怎麼還怕美國你這個好好瞭解一下你產業界出身的你跟高通那7億錢臺灣到底得到什麼能有貢獻出來把法緩變成他的投資然後他去補貼薪水非常高變成了把我們臺灣的產業我不知道政策在哪裡"},{"start":619.165,"end":638.299,"text":"我希望你7月就來講實話觀察還有很多那個不要怕做對的事情為臺灣的事情做出正確的一條路要7月這麼想我是把你整個我需要了解你的邏輯啊好好的發揮一下好不好"},{"start":639.059,"end":661.604,"text":"我講的這樣聽得到嗎?聽得到,謝謝到底是有還是沒有?聽得到,聽得到雖然那個無法通過,但是我們都不會這樣那時候有一些太誇張的事情在裡面,我們才這樣做但是你來好好做,我們會支持,國安會很重要規劃國家未來的發展及全球,我希望你好好努力是,謝謝委員好,謝謝感謝"}]}},{"id":"153347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153347","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebab2159b6c43be2aed8c05f44c04a464dbbeba37a180c9b1cdbbd3cd1cf68d15805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:30:48 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7年台海爆發戰爭嗎吳釗燮部長說共軍目前並沒有為侵台做準備然後還有很多"},{"start":135.397,"end":152.265,"text":"吳釗燮CNN專訪示警中國試圖對台灣發生戰爭．還有中國正為攻台醞釀新藉口．其實從外交的角度來看．這些都是已經屬於灰色地帶跟擦邊球了．"},{"start":152.725,"end":176.16,"text":"甚至很多的議題應該是要由我們的國防部長來做正式的回答而不是由外交部長的這個角色所以我想要請問一下林佳龍部長未來你在任內你是否會依循前一位的部長用這種可能會介入到國防部長職權的方式接受國外媒體的訪問"},{"start":177.912,"end":198.705,"text":"跟委員報告我當然會就外交部的業務我主政的為主不過就像說立法院是外交國防委員會這都是國安的一部分這怎麼樣分工合作或有沒有需要更高的這個層次來溝通協調我想這方面我們會多加注意"},{"start":199.825,"end":219.554,"text":"另外,前任部長吳釗燮已就任新位在國安會秘書長。就我今天得知的訊息是,到昨天,他還在媒體群組持續發表新聞稿,說他見了哪一些來自國外的貴賓。"},{"start":220.754,"end":236.367,"text":"那會不會變成是我們在外交上面有雙頭馬車的問題未來我們在整個外交體系上面外交部跟國安會我們應該要如何協調跟統一想請教部長您的看法"},{"start":238.445,"end":252.73,"text":"當然我們憲法或者是相關的法都有規定包括外交部的職權、國防部的職權那國安會它是總統會決定國家大政方針設的幕僚機構"},{"start":254.31,"end":269.136,"text":"這個部分當然就是他的職權所以比如說我們發生一些事情像這個瓜地馬拉咖啡跟這個夏威夷豆可能受到因為跟我們這個邦交的關係被中共那邊刁難這個時候當然國安會會出面協調跨部會議"},{"start":272.637,"end":291.059,"text":"首先是一般來說國安會就我們過去來講像顧立雄部長在擔任的時候就很少說我見了哪一些訪兵然後我發布新聞稿我來講這個事情如果繼續有類似的情況請問林部長會不會覺得您作為外交部長的職權被逾越了"},{"start":292.079,"end":320.807,"text":"我做我該做的,說我該說的。所以就這一點,我們外交部也有發新聞稿。好,謝謝。那部長您在前任部長任內,我們斷交了8個國家。所以前任的部長也被認為是斷交部長。那您剛上任,剛才馬昭偉也有詢問關於友邦的部分是否有信心。那我還要額外問一個問題是,部長在您的任內,您有沒有信心去爭取到新"},{"start":323.568,"end":350.258,"text":"我們現在也確實有一些國家想跟我們建立更緊密的關係但是我們就是秉持就是價值外交這樣的一個路線就不是因為說要什麼為了多一個少一個邦交國或涉入到金錢外交但是他們看到臺灣跟我們交往會來他們國家的發展所以確實有一些我們的邦交國的周邊國家可能也覺得說跟我們交往也有很正面的地方"},{"start":350.578,"end":353.4,"text":"我希望部長可以盡量的去做因為我大概掌握是哪些國家但是我覺得不想要在這裡去講讓你們的工作去破局因為能夠增加更多的邦交國這是我們大家引頸期盼的"},{"start":369.332,"end":386.214,"text":"過去的斷交部長如果林佳龍部長能夠變成是增加邦交的部長我相信不管是對您個人對外交部甚至對中華民國都是非常好的發展所以我們很期待在不久的未來能夠看到有新的邦交國的可能性"},{"start":390.616,"end":409.702,"text":"首先我們有一位23歲的台灣男子涉嫌販毒到紐約被逮捕那外交部證實了是外交替代一男我想要請問一下這個外交替代一男現在目前的情況是如何的那我們這邊會如何去做相關的處置"},{"start":410.542,"end":428.833,"text":"跟委員報告,因為在過境美國紐約的時候,因為其實他們對方美國已經偵辦相當的時間,在這個調查的過程,有跟我們相關的單位有聯繫,所以是有一些掌握,因為這個是偵辦是由美國,因為他的司法權所在。"},{"start":434.656,"end":434.676,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":464.565,"end":464.805,"text":"我們會發表抗議嗎?"},{"start":481.954,"end":482.254,"text":"上週我們有三位同仁"},{"start":498.297,"end":521.23,"text":"不分黨派的立委同仁去WHA參加活動我們在疫情期間幫助了很多國家但是我們聯合國的秘書長雖然說給予肯定可是這次卻無法參加還說要看其他會員國但是我們從2009到2016是可以以觀察員的身份參加但從2017年開始就不行了"},{"start":521.67,"end":528.402,"text":"那這部分部長有沒有信心在未來我們有機會能夠爭取到再次以觀察員身份參加的機會?"},{"start":530.68,"end":554.975,"text":"我們要更努力因為確實也更嚴峻這一個環境但是我們從這一次為台灣發聲的包括發言或者是聯名性的國家有增加他那個內容也更強度越來越高所以我想這個對於台灣參加是目的但是這個過程當中我們用各種的方式"},{"start":557.02,"end":572.496,"text":"最後一個跟外交比較沒關係但跟您個人有關係的我想詢問最近被討論的王逸川先生民進黨的政策會執行長因為他都被認為是您的子弟兵您帶出來的但他最近身為"},{"start":573.177,"end":596.78,"text":"民進黨的執行長卻在節目上表達說他可以取得參加不同活動的民眾的個資去比對我個人認為這樣子的行為是違反通保法以及個資法想要請問部長因為他都被說是您的子弟兵所以您對這件事情的看法是什麼我想我們也想要知道一下"},{"start":598.104,"end":620.756,"text":"王逸川就是王逸川林佳龍是林佳龍我也沒有跟他有什麼討論沒有跟他有討論我想由他自己來回應但是您認為就是說從您過去的各種政治參與經驗是有辦法去得到去識別化的個資這樣子的一個事情嗎這個事情我到目前真的沒有很清楚這個個案的情況好 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153346","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebae7d7790dffb878b1cb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cd918409242d3ea2ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:26:24 - 10:37:20","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":656,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:37:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:26:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":807,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時26分）主席，我們請主委。","主委，不要緊張、不要緊張。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：主委，5月2日在內政委員會的時候，我們有審姓名條例嘛！在這裡面本席特別質詢說我們所有的原住民同仁要怎麼回復傳統的姓名，應該趕快研議一個最好的方法，包括一站式的換證服務是不是比較便民，還有不用繳這些費用，在討論當中，5月14日這個條文已經三讀通過了。主委，你知道這個過程是要讓我們原住民方便，還讓他們不用負擔換證的費用嗎？來，主委，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，大部分我們換身分證都有便民措施，措施已經都有做了。"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！我現在要問你，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道啦！"],["王委員美惠：你知道嘛！好，剛才本席坐在下面，聽你說到0403的震災，我們原住民的房子壞了，是不是可以趕快讓他們申請費用、讓他們早日使用？這兩項當中，要向當地的公所申請，本席認為你們要成立一個單一窗口，救災等於救急啦！你們的報告還說教會受損的時候，這些經費6月中旬可以執行、可以給教會補助，在這裡面，本席要跟你們說，你知道要讓我們原住民方便去單一窗口辦理回復姓名，為什麼這兩項不能去協助我們原住民來申請？來，你回答一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，有關於0403花蓮震災，教會也好或部落道路也好，我們都有去跟公所和縣政府……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！我現在問你說可以這樣做嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：請處長說明。"],["王委員美惠：來啦！可以這樣做嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，其實現在各公所本來就設立單一窗口在受理，他直接就近跟公所申請就可以了。"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！我現在的意思就是，有時候原住民就不知道要怎麼辦、要怎麼做，一般就都要服務原住民，服務要到位啊！"],["劉處長維哲：受災戶其實我們是有明確的，我們直接去訪視，不用被動等他來，我們人去訪視，訪視完協助他申請，其實這個比單一窗口的效益更好。"],["王委員美惠：那主委剛才怎麼這麼說？說錢要趕快下來，讓他們趕快使用。"],["劉處長維哲：錢本來就要趕快下去，我們錢都已經下去了。"],["王委員美惠：你是不是比較瞭解？來，誰比較瞭解？回答一下，可能剛剛沒聽懂我的意思，簡單說就是便民，你們聽得懂嗎？原住民要申請案件或要做什麼，直接去他們那裡協助他們啦！"],["劉處長維哲：對，我們現在的作法就是這樣。"],["王委員美惠：作法就是這樣？不是喔！我剛才叫助理去問的是，你們要原住民的人去公所送件申請，我現在的意思是你們原住民裡面的人，可以讓他們像之前單一窗口這樣處理啦！"],["劉處長維哲：好，現在的作法就是我們知道人在哪裡，就派人直接去看，看他要申請什麼，我們來幫忙他。"],["王委員美惠：我的意思是你派人去看的時候，他資料全部都有了，為什麼臨門一腳，你們不直接幫忙他送件？"],["劉處長維哲：對，我們就是看了之後，幫他申請送件，這沒有問題啊！"],["王委員美惠：沒有問題喔？"],["劉處長維哲：對，這是便民服務。"],["王委員美惠：好，要趕快做喔！"],["劉處長維哲：我們現在就在做。"],["王委員美惠：可是剛才說的不是現在在做的喔！再來，照你們這樣說，錢什麼時候可以到他們的手上去使用？"],["劉處長維哲：這部分我們會請地方政府的行政作業要加快一點，從寬、從速、從簡。"],["王委員美惠：加多快？問題是在中央還是在地方？"],["劉處長維哲：在地方。"],["王委員美惠：地方不是說要趕快救災，怎麼還要那麼久？還要多久？0403，今天已經5月30號了耶！"],["劉處長維哲：我跟委員報告，比方說教會修繕，我們明天會開說明會，開完說明會現場有領據，請他簽一簽之後我們就辦理撥款，用這種方式來處理。"],["王委員美惠：好，那些百姓要修繕房子的部分呢？"],["劉處長維哲：修繕部分的話，也就是我們到現場現勘，如果符合資格，我們把表格簡化，我們都簡化了……"],["王委員美惠：我知道，簡化的部分我知道，所以什麼時候才會有錢？"],["劉處長維哲：錢都已經在地方政府，只要核准，馬上就可以撥款。"],["王委員美惠：對啊！現在就是原住民的車子和房子壞了，要怎麼讓他的錢可以趕快下來，你要協助嘛！這個就是重點，到底是什麼原因要讓百姓一直在等地方政府？現在我說的是這個。"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，這部分我們會加速來辦。"],["王委員美惠：加速，加速要多久？"],["劉處長維哲：請花蓮縣政府要儘速完成行政程序來做處理。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得講到「氣身惱命」，我說的就是百姓受災害急需要錢，不是說……你也要替百姓去跟花蓮縣政府追，這個錢到底什麼時候要下來啊！好不好？"],["劉處長維哲：好。"],["王委員美惠：這才是目的，這才是重要的啊！","再來，本席上次質詢的時候有說到，如果你們要搬遷的話，可以研議給他緩衝3個月，你們現在討論得怎麼樣？還是馬耳東風問一問就忘記了？不會替我們百姓……"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，對不起，我剛剛沒有聽清楚緩衝什麼業務？"],["王委員美惠：我們是不是要……表示我跟你們質詢的，你們回去都沒有討論啦！你們要搬去桃園，那時候說要讓他們可以有幾個月……不過在臺北或在哪裡要到桃園的時候不一定可以啦！我就知道你的業務，我就想說你沒有……沒辦法還是怎麼樣？還是還在研議？那時候我提醒你要有3個月的緩衝期讓他們考慮一下。"],["楊處長正斌：對，那個部分沒有問題，就是在他們搬遷的協助裡面就有放這個緩衝期。"],["王委員美惠：沒問題吧，好，主席再1分鐘給我。主委，我請問一下，你們博物館要蓋在哪裡？剛才你的工作報告提到的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：高雄的澄清湖。"],["王委員美惠：再來，你們的集會所，如果要鼓勵住在「內山」的人住到市區，你們如果要蓋集會所，多少人你才會蓋？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在鄉（市），希望在1,500人以上。"],["王委員美惠：希望啦，我針對嘉義市來跟你說，目前嘉義市1,288個，再212個，就到1,500個了，你們集會所要蓋的時候，有跟嘉義市政府商量過嗎？你們的做法是要把原住民的福利照顧好，不是要把原本住在山上的原住民都趕一趕，讓他們到市區來生活，應該是市區的也要顧、山上的也要顧，才是有作為、有擔當的主委啊！如果像你們這樣做，山裡就沒有半個人了！主委，你研議一下，差不多一個禮拜給我一個書面，以上。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，你們說的這個我們已經去看過，嘉義市民政局我們會主動來協助，我們去看過了。"],["王委員美惠：你們要蓋在哪裡？"],["劉處長維哲：請他們找地，有地我們就來幫忙。"],["王委員美惠：有地就幫忙，如果沒有地就不用幫忙了？"],["劉處長維哲：地它要自己處理啦！"],["王委員美惠：喔！地要自己處理？你叫他們來市區住，然後叫市政府自己處理？來，不要耽誤時間，這問題有夠大的，所以你們要詳細去瞭解一下，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝美惠委員的質詢。","繼續我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"],["王委員美惠：對耶，你反質詢我，你會被關喔！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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被動等他來我們人是去訪視 訪視完協助他申請其實這個跟抵戴鏈窗口的效益更好這樣主委 剛才怎麼這樣說說一人要緊就來他們要緊輸喔一人本來就要緊下去啊我一人當然緊下去啊"},{"start":234.076,"end":239.241,"text":"來,你是不是很了解,來來來,主席,什麼人很了解回答一下,可能他聽不到我的意思,變民,說那麼近的變民,你聽到沒有啦,一間地的原住民,要走走,要做什麼,直接去來協助啦。"},{"start":254.034,"end":261.817,"text":"對喔!我現在的做法就是這樣啊!做法這樣?不是喔!我剛才在外面叫你問的是,你還要原住民的人上街去公訴申請咧!我現在的意思是,你原住民裡面的人像之前在你村口可以讓他們這樣處理啦!"},{"start":279.653,"end":299.319,"text":"我現在的做法就是,我知道人在哪裡,我就派人去看,看他們的行情什麼。我的意思是說,你派人去看的時候,他住了都很久了,是要怎麼臨門一朝,你不怎麼走去,來送他,他待了三天啦。對啊,我看了報的行情,把他送走。"},{"start":300.379,"end":316.868,"text":"這沒有問題阿沒有問題喔對對好沒有問題喔要趕緊走喔我們現在就在做喔現在在做 對可是他剛才說的不是現在在做的喔再來在這樣發生的時候像你們這樣說的當時可以站到他們的手上可以去他們使用"},{"start":324.488,"end":327.691,"text":"加多快?問題是在上面還是在上面?"},{"start":335.523,"end":336.744,"text":"在地方。 在地方?"},{"start":336.744,"end":337.104,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":337.104,"end":337.344,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":337.344,"end":337.865,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":337.865,"end":338.125,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":338.125,"end":338.605,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":338.605,"end":338.985,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":338.985,"end":339.186,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":339.186,"end":339.406,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":339.406,"end":339.646,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":339.646,"end":339.806,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":339.806,"end":339.946,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":339.946,"end":340.046,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":340.046,"end":340.226,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":340.226,"end":340.306,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":340.306,"end":340.466,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":340.466,"end":340.567,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":340.567,"end":341.867,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":341.867,"end":342.128,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":342.128,"end":342.188,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":342.188,"end":342.348,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":342.348,"end":343.408,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":343.408,"end":343.869,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":343.869,"end":345.09,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":345.09,"end":345.41,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":345.41,"end":345.59,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":345.59,"end":345.75,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":345.75,"end":346.711,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":346.711,"end":347.011,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":347.011,"end":347.111,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":347.111,"end":347.411,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":347.411,"end":347.471,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":347.471,"end":347.731,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":347.731,"end":347.852,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":347.852,"end":348.112,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":348.112,"end":348.532,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":348.532,"end":348.952,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":348.952,"end":349.253,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":349.253,"end":350.714,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":350.714,"end":351.174,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":351.174,"end":351.514,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":351.514,"end":352.115,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":352.115,"end":352.335,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":352.335,"end":352.475,"text":"對。 在地方?"},{"start":365.487,"end":379.965,"text":"修繕部分的話,也就是他如果說我們到現場現刊,現刊如果符合資格,我們把簡化的表格,我們就簡化了。簡化只要有照片。 我知道,簡化的那個我知道。 對。那時候有一次,"},{"start":383.494,"end":393.276,"text":"錢都已經在地方政府,只要核准就馬上就可以撥款。對啦,到現在就是說,你要怎麼讓你的原住民的人,屬於他的車、他的房子,要怎麼趕快給他錢就來嘛。你要協助這個,重點就是這個嘛。他們要先跟你們地方的政府到底要擔任什麼官員啊。現在我說的是這樣啊。"},{"start":410.049,"end":422.641,"text":"對阿,包委員我們這部分我們會加速來辦啦。加速?阿加速多久?對,請花蓮縣政府要盡量紓緩那個行政程序來做處理。"},{"start":425.586,"end":435.393,"text":"吼!我估計吼!講到去新羅名啦!我講的就是!百姓受災愛!冠軍愛職!不是說跟你們爽的!你們也要替百姓去啦!花蓮見霧堆!這個職到底當時要來啊!好不好!這才是目的啊!這才是要緊啊!"},{"start":450.051,"end":461.894,"text":"再來,在本席這宗的選舉時,有說到我們擬具時,我們可以願意給他一個緩衝三個月,您現在討論在哪裡來?來,或是盲盲的馬力達鴻,盲盲的又不會一個啦,不可以替我們的北省,我們的... 包委員,對不起,我剛剛沒有聽出緩衝什麼業務。"},{"start":475.182,"end":480.986,"text":"來審時﹑要標示﹑我若您接受的話﹑您當時都沒有討論﹑您要去討論的時候﹑您的選擇﹑要讓他們可以有幾個月﹑有幾個月﹑要在台北、在哪裡要去討論的時候﹑不一定可以﹑"},{"start":498.53,"end":523.256,"text":"我又知道你的業務,我又想說你沒辦法。那個沒有三個月的緩衝期。沒辦法,還是怎樣?還是還要研議?三個月,以前我如果你提起說要有三個月的緩衝期,讓他們考慮一下。對,那個部分沒有問題,就是在他們的協助裡面就要放這個緩衝期。好來,沒問題來。主席還有一個問題給我。"},{"start":527.356,"end":550.946,"text":"來 主委 我要請問一下您博物館 要去哪裏 台獨那裏的工作報告高雄的陳清福喔 高雄的陳清福再來 您的集會所 您如果說高雄來選 到底選的人要來 起來那您如果要去集會所 多少人可以去多少人你要去"},{"start":559.091,"end":565.273,"text":"希望在一千五百人以上希望啦齁 這樣啦 我針對加義企啦 你講現在沒錢加義企 一千兩百八十八個 又欠兩百十二個 五千五個啊你機會所要去的時候 你有啦加義企 這樣我有參選過嗎"},{"start":579.69,"end":593.94,"text":"您的做法是要原住民的福利照顧好好的不是原住民住在山的原住民都一直來國外來市內生活您是要啦!市內也要購!山也要購!這個是有作為有單單的主委啊!"},{"start":604.757,"end":605.017,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":624.747,"end":626.007,"text":"主席美惠委員"},{"start":653.032,"end":655.125,"text":"主席王美惠議員"}]}},{"id":"153345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba85fec6f5b1cfdcf74869c0f3e297fc60beba37a180c9b1cd5655b785b1414eda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:28:58 - 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那我想問是什麼時候可以再啟動否則就是擱置在那邊那預計在什麼時候可以"},{"start":134.178,"end":135.719,"text":"行政院審查進度"},{"start":163.397,"end":163.678,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":178.251,"end":193.826,"text":"市長是自為關鍵可是呢對於矯正學校的學生有沒有進行調整否則對他們來講事實上是一個很大的壓迫感因為他不想讓人家知道他過去否則學校要錄取他的可能性變成不高不知道這邊你們的配套又是什麼"},{"start":195.155,"end":214.413,"text":"謝謝委員關心其實學校就是四所教校他在運用108課綱的這個課程架構的時候其實大概只是提供他一個課程的架構那學校的課程規劃其實是可以在適應這些孩子的需求去做彈性的調整"},{"start":214.873,"end":237.4,"text":"那這些孩子每一個孩子我們都會就是有一副學籍的一般的學校所以每一個孩子他在就是學籍檔案裡頭其實他都有各自獨立的帳號他可以上傳但是他上傳是用一般學校的學籍他不會被辨識身份"},{"start":238.18,"end":266.298,"text":"可是為什麼民間有這麼多的反應我覺得教育部還是要去確定一下這都是團體他們在服務這些孩子的時候面對到的一些問題在整個課程的設計還有我們進入到矯正體系裡邊的實務工作者事實上都缺乏社會情緒能力跟技巧的培養我也期待矯正署事實上是要去做一些工作人員的培訓的時候要去考慮下一頁"},{"start":267.879,"end":289.942,"text":"那這個就是我們的保護室就你有逆境少年跟家庭執事服務方案可是很大的問題是在於這個工作室上是每一年去做補助那就會變成是你如果最後追一年的話至少追蹤一年可是會不會明年又不是這個單位來承接的話就會是斷掉的那我不知道你對這個有沒有一個說明"},{"start":292.379,"end":319.327,"text":"關於補助的方式是不是可以以後把它變成是一個比較中長期的部分這個我們可以回去做一個研究所以也請馬上回去做研議否則的話中斷定不利那再來就是我覺得邵家廷這邊想問就是說整個司法處遇本來整個的資料就非常透明不足然後我們很難去看到你的成效到底是什麼更讓我們覺得質疑的地方是"},{"start":320.953,"end":335.626,"text":"他們到底要面對到多少人本來我們期待事實上是社工可不可以統籌有一個社工去統籌這邊也提到說以安室的管理可是實際上他們事實上是一個少年他面對到非常多的人"},{"start":336.707,"end":336.807,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":352.574,"end":376.71,"text":"一樣邵俄廳這邊整個的少年保那個少年調查官這邊大概整個的人力上市上市1比70相對於一般性的兒少保護大概是人1比25那逆境方案的話是1比20所以相對人力是比較高的齁甚至當初矯正學校大便也要也有特別去提到說"},{"start":377.35,"end":377.63,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":394.844,"end":419.214,"text":"跟委員報告我們有盤點目前我們四所角度學校比較缺乏的是輔導教師缺乏5名還有就是心理師、社工師總共缺18名但是在這邊我要非常感謝教育部的國教署他支援我們心社人員12名本來在"},{"start":420.775,"end":437.254,"text":"去年就結束了,年底就結束了,那麼他延續到今年年底,然後又答應延續到明年年底,所以這個部分對我們來講是相當幫助,但是我們將來會爭取編制的新設人員"},{"start":438.315,"end":439.235,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":454.841,"end":455.301,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":471.252,"end":471.452,"text":"法務部委員會委員會議員"},{"start":500.126,"end":500.266,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba9c0875d9af240182ea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cd9dbcd45e44a4b4e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:27:36 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Kacaw委員，鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員、鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.79409375,"end":4.3678437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.38034375,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.902843750000002,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.81846875,"end":131.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.51346875,"end":98.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.54721875,"end":98.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.33096875,"end":132.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.07346875000002,"end":133.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.25471875,"end":147.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.14721875,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.48034375,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.69096875,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.09096875,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.54159375,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.09846875000002,"end":162.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.67221875,"end":163.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.87034375000002,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.22471875000002,"end":164.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.32159375,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.07096875000002,"end":176.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.98221875000002,"end":178.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.28596875000002,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.14534375000002,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.92034375,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.72971875000002,"end":204.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.00346875000002,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.23534375000003,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.72471875000002,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.78784375,"end":213.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.84971875000002,"end":222.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.78971875000002,"end":252.70034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.43846875000003,"end":255.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.14284375,"end":262.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.24721875,"end":265.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.85846875000004,"end":269.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.77784375000005,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.96346875,"end":272.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.34284375000004,"end":279.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.34596875,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.07534375,"end":286.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.97346875,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.24346875000003,"end":288.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.84659375,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.88034375,"end":290.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.04846875000004,"end":295.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.30971875,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.32221875000005,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.89159375,"end":301.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.80659375000005,"end":305.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.72159375,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.49284375,"end":347.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.80784375,"end":351.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.70596875,"end":358.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.61596875000004,"end":361.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.81409375000004,"end":366.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.64034375,"end":367.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.90596875,"end":368.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.32784375,"end":369.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.48346875000004,"end":375.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.01034375,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.75284375,"end":391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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":266.912,"end":267.012,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":295.384,"end":315.538,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":315.598,"end":315.638,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":338.61,"end":358.386,"text":"提降低到施打年齡層當然是好事但是這只是暫時未來會不會這個政策會不會持續這是我第一個問題肺炎練球桿菌市長第二個問題這個校旗是到多少到什麼時候你們這一次突然開放是因為校旗快到了所以才突然開放嗎不知道"},{"start":362.52,"end":374.765,"text":"拜託!我們是不是可以允許我們會後再提供給委員,可以嗎?這個民眾想知道捏,給我一分鐘,給我一分鐘。抱歉因為今天期關署他沒有來,抱歉。"},{"start":375.936,"end":392.728,"text":"市長我要提醒你如果是因為我覺得當然肺炎練球桿菌可以降到50歲以上可以施打我個人是支持這個政策我希望不是暫時性的但是今年是因為我們庫存過多才鼓勵大家施打那我覺得"},{"start":394.121,"end":406.715,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":407.056,"end":427.892,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":428.359,"end":428.659,"text":"李彥秀委員"}]}},{"id":"153343","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153343","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba916d0de33f9442591766e5648a1e6b71beba37a180c9b1cd8f4d12879dd2c1a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:23:33 - 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這個院長已經有指示了會議要求各部的部長親自參加是 你看上一次的會議記錄"},{"start":97.028,"end":123.951,"text":"全部都是代理人全部都是代理人證明說其實政府內部、行政院內部是不重視國發會的啊所以這一點我覺得主委既然有這樣子的氣魄有這樣的決心想要大國發會的時代再次來臨的話請你一定務必要要求各部的部長要親自出席這一點你能做到嗎這個是的因為院長已經支持了"},{"start":125.314,"end":125.454,"text":"國會無法．"},{"start":140.565,"end":167.44,"text":"心虛有可能會說謊的官員像您這樣子認真的官員是不會受到影響的你知道嗎這國會無法是在讓行政院更透明化而且呢甚至行政院做得好我們也是給他拍拍手鼓勵啊這是一個預防性的措施而不是要拿來破壞政府官員或者是跟任何民間企業跟人民都無關您了解嗎"},{"start":169.103,"end":191.679,"text":"謝謝委員開導您個人認為擔任國發會主委後您優先推動的政策或者是最大的政策目標是什麼?我們最大的目標就是第一個是產業我們希望讓經濟更好第二個是均衡我們希望讓台灣能夠各地發展是均衡的包括產業"},{"start":192.887,"end":211.387,"text":"是,那我在媒體上看到說您有在說要推動AI產業成為第二個護國神山那因為晶片跟AI產業的發展對於我們台灣是非常非常的重要所以每年增加多少電力需求主委了解嗎?"},{"start":212.741,"end":232.879,"text":"電力需求依據台電的評估,他把他整個整體需求目前把AI算進來是每一年整個台灣會有3%的增加。是,那如果每年成長3%,10年就是30%,而我們的核一、核二都已經除役了,主委知道下一座要除役的機組是什麼時候要除役嗎?"},{"start":234.504,"end":259.264,"text":"應該是2025年沒有是這個今年今年的7月今年的7月27號我們和珊的第一座居住就要除役了那所以不到兩個月以後就要停止商轉再過一年明年的5月17號和珊的二號機也要停止商轉到那個時候我們所有核能機組就已經完全停止運轉"},{"start":260.205,"end":278.121,"text":"那所以呢合三除一之後大約會有6%至7%的電力缺口請問主委對我們現在臺灣的電力供給有信心嗎目前來講是有信心因為兩個因素第一個他備載有16%第二個因素是我我針對這一點有跟臺電再三確認那他有他的計劃在增加機組"},{"start":285.439,"end":302.373,"text":"我建議主委啦,針對台灣電力的實際狀況你一定要用心去了解否則您說的口號就會真的變成口號而且會變成空談你說台積電甚至AI這一些說每年還要增加3%的用電量"},{"start":303.434,"end":303.954,"text":"您不知道我告訴您"},{"start":334.265,"end":339.153,"text":"四千零一億你知道四千零一億可以再多蓋一座核電廠嗎?知道嗎?呃...應該是...呃...我不曉得核電廠的..."},{"start":350.017,"end":367.272,"text":"主委對核能是抱持著支持的態度,不曉得這瞭解有沒有錯誤?我是沒有反對,不是支持,這一定要講清楚,就是我們對企業來講我們要的是有安全穩定的供電"},{"start":369.133,"end":369.594,"text":"我覺得你被騙了"},{"start":390.063,"end":405.538,"text":"你也要求他們不准騙你。你不准騙我們,他也不准騙你知道嗎?回去要好好的查明這件事情。到底他們有什麼依據覺得說他們覺得有信心、電力充足。我覺得這一點你一定要追根究柢。那另外呢我是"},{"start":406.579,"end":425.063,"text":"本席其實是支持您抱持著不排斥的看法我覺得這是相當理性務實的看法那我們的院長行政院卓院長他就說永不放棄追求非核家園雖然您先前稱讚我們的行政院長是非常有理想的但這個想法顯然跟你的想法跟你的規劃有所衝突"},{"start":429.764,"end":456.113,"text":"主委,你是不是應該拿起要喚醒大國發會這樣子的氣魄去勸一下行政院長用更務實、更理性的態度來看待核能呢?我的看法是氫能源可以發展起來非核家園是做得到的那我們也不需要在這種事情上面去打轉因為人民要的是一個乾淨的電那氫能源可以提供乾淨的電加上風力等等所以我們應該去努力"},{"start":456.533,"end":456.793,"text":"主席,我想要發表就是說"},{"start":473.272,"end":481.736,"text":"這個核能要回歸理性專業對國家最有利的方式而不是因為有人絕食或是寫在黨章裡面就成為不可碰觸或者不可討論的禁忌主委你要拿起你在產業的這些實戰經驗好好地來對行政院要求說我們一定要為了產業發展"},{"start":495.922,"end":511.453,"text":"要有充足的電力不要再把核能當作是不可碰觸的禁忌了那接下來本席問就是說國防會的主委需要堅定很多法定的職務請問你自己了解有哪幾個重要的法定職務嗎?"},{"start":513.936,"end":516.299,"text":"您同時也是政委,因為組織法明定政委兼主委,然後也是國發基金的召集人。"},{"start":530.796,"end":549.689,"text":"國發基金的代表人就是您作為國發基金就是代表人台積電最大的股東擁有一席的董事席次那過去慣例這個位置都是由主委擔任那台積電今年4月才公布新任的這個名單是董明星主委那6月4號的董事選舉能會有董明星秘書長來擔任國發會的這個基金代表擔任台積電的董事呢還是會換成您"},{"start":560.896,"end":580.82,"text":"我們會更換到我會更換到你嗎所以這是確定的那我在這裡也向這個台積電的董事來建議就是說我們雲林縣虎尾中科園區已經通過了台塘土地的陳珠而且呢也用水用電的同意函都已經具備甚至從虎尾土庫寶中東勢串起來高達1600公頃的這個台塘土地用水用電用地都"},{"start":589.842,"end":591.743,"text":"是的,我會找機會表達謝謝,謝謝主委好 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各位專家學者大家好我們對不起下一代我們非常非常對不起下一代在今天來談到108課綱的問題之前我要跟大家報告一件我剛剛才在司法委員會執行法務部的一個數字你可以看到我們青少年是處在什麼樣的地獄當中"},{"start":40.612,"end":64.883,"text":"我們這個過去8年就是民進黨執政這8年青少年的犯罪嫌疑人數每1萬人在2016年是61.6位到2023年去年是88.7位青少年嫌疑犯犯罪的狀況"},{"start":66.529,"end":80.937,"text":"嚴重惡化成長了1.44倍將近漲了50%這是指普遍性的犯罪 青少年的犯罪如果我們今天把它連結到現在最嚴重的詐欺的狀況的話12歲到17歲的詐欺嫌疑犯2016年是953人"},{"start":94.035,"end":120.333,"text":"2023年是2186人成長2.3倍如果以每萬人來看更從6.2位成長到18.6位成長3倍為什麼要從這邊來講教育是百年大業教育是一切的源頭執政者如果搞爛了教育"},{"start":121.584,"end":121.724,"text":"108課綱實施以來"},{"start":151.468,"end":179.475,"text":"百病重生最為人詬病的其中之一學習歷程檔案我不客氣的講讓學生花費大量時間跟金錢投入準備但呈現的內容卻跟現實有很大的差異偏鄉學校開不出多元課程教不出漂亮的學習歷程而其他社經地位比較高的家庭可以委請專人來製作"},{"start":181.761,"end":196.21,"text":"所以教育本來應該是讓階級流動讓所謂的弱勢者可以透過教育透過努力改變未來人生但是我們的課綱設計我們的教育體系的設計卻變成一道高牆一個鴻溝"},{"start":203.735,"end":223.556,"text":"阻礙今天射精帝位弱勢者透過教育能夠實現光明理想 摧殘人生的機遇學習歷程跟升學綁在一起 很多大學教授都知道大學教授可沒有吃飽閒著 都非常忙碌"},{"start":224.878,"end":245.448,"text":"有多少時間完成檢視這些準備的資料有一些學校甚至他也不用學歷歷程檔案校方收到就好那學生辛苦準備的意義在哪裡事實上大家可以看到很多學者也開始對這個部分展開了很多的一些評價"},{"start":247.349,"end":272.822,"text":"那除了我們學習歷程以外 教改30年 廣設大學 文憑貶值然後很多腐爛升格 然後讓技職教育崩壞為了執行教改的所謂教改 美好名詞的理念108課綱做了哪些事情 一路減少必修學分 增加選修學分"},{"start":274.312,"end":302.691,"text":"每期名為多元但實際上讓學生基本本質的能力學能下降所以造成學歷低落甚至未來長遠影響國家的人才庫高中古文篇目前從60篇減為15篇在座的各位我相信我們過去都是學習古文60篇的那個年代"},{"start":304.571,"end":325.227,"text":"對我們語文能力 國語文能力的基本的能力這是扎根的基礎工作英文單字量從7000減為4500數學重要單位為積分刪除不教導致高中程度國中化 國中程度小學化物理化學生物地科必修剩下兩個學分為舊課綱的一半"},{"start":329.096,"end":347.87,"text":"這些已經開始傳出災情了啦已經傳出災情了不但在大學裡面產生所謂的學歷學能低落的災情長遠來講這也跟賴清德總統喊出要把台灣變成人工智慧之島的目標背道而馳但我們下一代的"},{"start":352.203,"end":376.153,"text":"這個教育下一代的培養下一代的機遇被掏空的時候請問賴清德總統你怎麼樣把台灣打造成人工智慧之島這是今天我們不得不發出沉重怒吼發出警訊來告訴大家我們再不正視這個已經在妨礙我們台灣生存存續發展的這個"},{"start":377.804,"end":384.253,"text":"錯誤的課綱在不面對這個問題的時候我們要付出的代價是更大更大更深更深更遠更遠的"},{"start":385.987,"end":413.085,"text":"我們可能走向一個不可逆的一個教育掏空的局面所以今天真的非常感謝我們關心108課綱關心教育的各個專家學者們大家齊聚在這裡是我知道你們在第一線已經看到這個非常讓大家已經不要講憂心啦那不是憂心而已啊已經讓大家覺得沉痛的一個景象我們不能不站出來"},{"start":414.309,"end":414.389,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153341","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaee712ea85f754198cb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cd6c7d451d8d01ad695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:19:17 - 10:26:19","影片長度":"00:07:02","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":422,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:26:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:19:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":771,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時19分）謝謝主席，我們請曾主委。"],["主席：曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。先恭喜主委就任，接下來還有很多事情，我們要一起努力。","首先我想請教主委，最近立法院都在討論可能會經過花東的三個法案，包括環島高鐵、國道六號東延以及花東快，主委知不知道？"],["曾主任委員智勇：知道。"],["黃委員捷：這三個法案原民會有沒有相關的業務，要經過你們的評估？不知道你們內部有沒有先行討論？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這三個法案應該要經過原住民部落，或者是希望開發原住民土地的話，必須要取得原住民部落的諮商同意。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這就是我想知道的，這三個法案大家估算經費需求超過2兆，要求行政機關在10年內蓋完，可是因為這些法案到目前都還沒有實質討論，也沒有任何的評估，就已經被全案保留送出交通委員會，並且排入院會準備二、三讀的議程了，只是到現在還沒有審查到。","之前交通部其實也評估過，像花東快至少會經過11個原民部落，還會經過像剛剛主委說的有非常多是原住民族部落的傳統領域，也有可能會徵收原住民族的土地才能完成，甚至對於部落環境、臺灣的土地生態都可能造成劇烈衝擊。所以我想請教主委，像是這11個原民部落可能受到影響及衝擊的居民，現在原民會有沒有大概幫他們評估一下，要怎麼保障他們接下來發表意見甚至是法律上的權益？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是請處長說明？"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：針對可能會影響到的11個部落，這個部分我們會協助他們，讓他們瞭解整個諮商同意要怎麼樣進行，因為有很多部落其實對這個部分非常陌生。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這就是我們擔心的，在部落都還非常陌生甚至都不清楚的情況下，這三個法就已經被送到院會，甚至被排入議程了。我想講的是，原基法裡面明定這樣的精神，如果政府要在原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內從事任何土地開發、公共開發，必須經諮商並取得原住民族或部落同意、參與，與原住民族分享相關利益。在你們的業務報告裡面也提到接下來應該要修訂「諮商取得原住民族部落同意參與辦法」，當然我很肯定，只是現在像這三個法就已經迫在眉睫了，如果與任何原住民族相關、會影響到他們權益的部分，拜託原民會一定要做第一層把關，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員捷：好，因為我希望，像是在這三案裡面，現在族人的立場是什麼，而你們原民會的角色是什麼，一定都要積極發聲，不要讓原住民族的土地正義在這種多數暴力的情況下被強行輾壓。","再來提到今天的這個法案，我想請教，我們現在都有相關的都市原住民族發展政策，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["黃委員捷：你們的業務報告裡面也提到，我們有一些相關的發展方案的報告，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["黃委員捷：那我們現在制定這個發展條例，跟這個發展方案之間是如何搭配？我想知道的是現在制定這個法的用意，以及接下來如果真的施行，到底對於發展方案上面有什麼具體幫助，以及什麼樣的法律授權？"],["曾主任委員智勇：制定都市的這個發展條例，最主要是在55個鄉以外的都會，尤其涉及超過1,500位原住民的話會有更明確的照顧。因為像很多在原鄉施行的計畫，沒有辦法在都會區做照顧，譬如在都會區裡面要蓋聚會所或者是相關語言文化的一些設施，必須要有這樣的一部法，對於原住民而言會更明確。","第二個，這部法一定會衝擊到縣市政府和鄉公所，甚至是部落，所以希望更完備它的討論，我希望這個草案我們也要趕快討論，跟委員提出來的案我們一起討論，會更完備。"],["黃委員捷：好，所以現在大家在問的是還沒看到院版對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：那你們院版現在在哪裡，什麼時候要送進來，是不是應該要一起來討論，才可以把彼此之間的衝突做更完備的處理呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前我所知道的訊息是有一些比較細的部分，還在跟地方政府做討論，討論好的時候我們的草案就會提出來。"],["黃委員捷：好，所以大概什麼時候才會送院版？因為現在我們已經有4個委員的版本在這裡了，也準備要實質審查了，可是還是沒有看到院版，既然我們實質施行上還有更多要跟地方政府討論的部分，是不是你們也給一個時程，大家才知道接下來到底何時具體收攏這個意見，才可以送出這個版本？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會儘快開公聽會，然後儘速提出我們的版本。"],["黃委員捷：好，我支持，我覺得這個公聽會應該要開，因為這個攸關地方政府嘛！所以其實應該要到各個縣市、有受到影響的地方政府，跟他們做實質的討論對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，希望我們這個公聽會趕快來促成，然後趕快把最後的院版定案好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝主委。","接續我們請王美惠。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.945343750000001,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.067218750000002,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.27721875,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.559718750000002,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.59409375,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.52221875,"end":53.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.18284375,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.71409375,"end":57.439718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.67596875,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.15159375,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.86846875,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.92596875000001,"end":119.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.21471875,"end":145.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.81409375,"end":147.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.60284375,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.02034375000002,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.11096875,"end":170.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.94096875000002,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.39159375,"end":222.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.01284375,"end":227.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.33721875,"end":250.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.86096875,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.67096875000001,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.41659375,"end":259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.24346875000003,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.56784375,"end":267.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.70221875000004,"end":281.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.48471875,"end":286.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.61909375,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.18409375000005,"end":289.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.92659375,"end":290.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.75346875,"end":302.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.71784375000004,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.91471875,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.91784375000003,"end":339.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.97784375000003,"end":339.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.14659375,"end":344.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.60159375,"end":344.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.95596875,"end":345.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.42846875000004,"end":354.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.09784375000004,"end":364.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.12159375000005,"end":377.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.13721875000005,"end":373.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.26721875000004,"end":392.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.44221875000005,"end":393.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.18034375,"end":397.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.28096875,"end":410.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.54909375000005,"end":410.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.19034375,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.23159375,"end":417.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.61971875,"end":419.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.43784375,"end":422.51346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.827,"end":10.312,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我們請曾主委"},{"start":26.583,"end":41.772,"text":"主委 知道說最近啊我們立法院都在討論有三個跟花東然後跟可能會經過花東的三個法案包括環島高鐵國道6號東延還有花東快不知道主委知不知道知道"},{"start":43.413,"end":52.323,"text":"這三個法案我們原民會有沒有相關的業務會經過你們的評估不知道你們內部有沒有先行討論了呢?"},{"start":57.793,"end":76.341,"text":"應該要經過原住民的部落或者是說希望要開發原住民的土地的話必須要這個取得原住民部落的諮商的同意沒錯 這就是我想要知道的因為這三個法案現在就是大家也估算說經費的需求超過兩兆"},{"start":77.902,"end":95.077,"text":"那要求我們行政機關要在10年內蓋完可是因為這些法案到目前都還沒有實質的討論也沒有任何的評估就已經被全案保留送出交通委員會並且排入到院會準備二三讀的議程了只是到現在還沒有審到"},{"start":96.718,"end":119.398,"text":"那之前交通部其實也有評估過說像花東塊至少會經過11個原民的部落那甚至也會經過像剛剛主委說的有非常多是包括原住民族部落的傳統領域也有可能會徵收到原住民族的土地才能完成的甚至呢對於部落的環境"},{"start":120.299,"end":120.439,"text":"請署長解釋"},{"start":149.148,"end":175.183,"text":"那針對這個可能會影響到的11個部落那這個部份我們會去協助他們就是說去讓他們了解說整個慈善同義要怎麼樣去進行因為有很多部落他其實對這個部份非常的陌生沒錯這就是我們擔心的在部落們都還非常陌生甚至都還不清楚的情況下這個這三個法就已經被送到院會甚至被排入議程了"},{"start":176.468,"end":199.482,"text":"所以我想要講的是現在其實我們原基法裡面有明定這樣的精神如果政府要在原住民族的土地或是部落或是周邊的一定範圍內要從事任何土地的開發公共的開發必須要經諮商並且取得原住民族或是部落的同意並且參與並且跟原住民族來分享相關的利益這個在你們業務報告裡面其實也有提到說接下來我們應該要來"},{"start":203.304,"end":221.722,"text":"來修這個諮商取得原住民族部落的同意的參與辦法那當然我很肯定只是說現在像是這三個法就已經迫在眉睫囉那現在我們如果有任何原住民族相關的會影響到他們權益的拜託我們原民會一定要做第一層的把關好嗎好"},{"start":224.659,"end":249.513,"text":"我希望說像是在這三案裡面現在主人的立場是什麼然後你們原民會的角色是什麼一定都要積極的發聲不要讓原住民族的土地正義在這種多數暴力的情況下被強行碾壓那再來提到一下今天的這個法我想要請教的是因為其實我們現在都有在做相關的都是原住民族的發展的政策對嗎"},{"start":251.734,"end":258.262,"text":"對。然後就你們的這個業務報告裡面也有提到我們有一些相關的發展的方案報告對嗎?"},{"start":260.472,"end":281.151,"text":"我們現在訂這個發展的條例跟這個發展的方案之間是如何搭配的?也就是說我想知道的是我們現在訂這個法的用意以及它接下來若真的要施行到底對於發展的方案上面是有什麼具體的幫助以及什麼樣的法律授權?"},{"start":283.344,"end":297.876,"text":"這個定這個都市的這個發展條例最主要是在55個鄉以外的都會尤其是超過1500個人涉及超過1500個人的原住民的話會有更明確的照顧"},{"start":299.397,"end":317.527,"text":"因為像很多在原鄉施行的計畫沒有辦法在這個都會區來做照顧比如說在都會區裡面要蓋聚會所啦或者是一些相關語言文化的設施他必須要有這樣的一個法以後會對原住民更明確"},{"start":319.296,"end":332.307,"text":"第二、這個法一定會衝擊到縣市政府跟鄉國所甚至於部落,所以我們希望更完備它的討論。我希望說我們這個草案我們也要趕快來討論,來跟委員提出來的案,我們一起來討論會更完備。"},{"start":341.295,"end":364.128,"text":"現在大家在問的是還沒看到院板對嗎?那你們院板現在在哪裡?什麼時候要送進來?是不是應該要一起來討論才可以把彼此之間的衝突更完備呢?目前我所知道那個信息就是說還在跟地方政府有一些比較細的部分還在跟他們做討論。討論好的時候我們的草案就會提出來。"},{"start":365.196,"end":391.721,"text":"好 所以現在所以大概什麼時候才會送院版因為現在我們已經有四個委員的版本了已經在這裡了那也準備要實質審查了可是還是沒有看到院版那既然我們實質要施行上還有更多要跟地方政府討論的部分是不是你們也給一個時程大家才知道說接下來我們到底具體收攏這個意見才可以送出這個版本嗎"},{"start":392.481,"end":416.768,"text":"我們會盡快開公聽會然後來進一步提出我們的版本好我支持啊我覺得這個公聽會應該要開因為這個攸關地方政府嘛所以其實應該要到各個縣市有受到影響的地方政府跟他們做實質的討論對嗎是好那希望我們這個公聽會趕快來促成然後趕快把最後的院版訂案好嗎好謝謝主委"},{"start":420.475,"end":420.938,"text":"好 謝謝黃捷委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"153340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba2e7c5e648aa8faaacb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cd8a4d4e9809745efa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:07:57 - 10:19:12","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":675,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:19:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:07:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時7分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，恭喜你。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：你坐主委這個位置，心理準備好了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：準備好了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，準備好了，你知道主委應該做什麼事情嗎？知道原民會的業務是什麼嗎？你簡單說明一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，原民會的業務主要是擬定整個原住民政策，把經費合理的分配到縣市甚至鄉，還有到部落去，這是最重要的業務職掌。特別是跟原住民相關的很多政策，必須跟大家討論之後，由原民會綜合整個意見提出來。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道立法院有兩個會期嗎？現在這個會期是什麼，下個會期是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在是法案的會期，下個會期應該是預算的會期。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很重要，一個是法案，一個是預算，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，講法案好了，你知道賴總統對原住民的政見有什麼嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：他對原住民的政策總括來講有七個。"],["高金委員素梅：哪七個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對平埔能夠趕快認定，還有開放參與，落實共管原住民的一些資源，還有希望……"],["高金委員素梅：什麼共管？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是開放參與，落實共管自然資源。"],["高金委員素梅：我幫你講好了，好不好？第一個政見是回應平埔正名運動長期以來的盼望，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個是深化原住民自治，對吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：第三個是培力部落並開放參與，落實原住民共管自然資源，守護土地。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：第四個是強化原住民健康服務。第五個是建立雙軌制的原住民教育體系，為臺灣教育增添多元性跟創新的能量，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：第六個是完善都市原住民族的公共服務，還有居住權的保障跟參政的管道。第七個就是培育原住民族外交、文化、體育等多面的人才，將原住民族的故事推向國際。有七個很清楚，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問這七個你應該怎麼落實？"],["曾主任委員智勇：第一個，比較急的就是南島語系取得原住民的身分，因為這個已經有憲法判決，我們希望在期限內……"],["高金委員素梅：你知道平埔族的人數有多少人嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：大約九十八萬多。"],["高金委員素梅：好，這九十八萬未來會面臨什麼問題？如果他們的身分別已經被認定的話，你知道會面臨什麼問題嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：最重要的是他們的語言，還有他們的文化都流失得很快。"],["高金委員素梅：不僅僅這個，原民會主委要做、要盤點非常多的事情，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：譬如說，你們列舉一下，會影響到現在既有的什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：預算的部分也會影響到。"],["高金委員素梅：好，你該怎麼爭取預算？九十八萬人口的話，應該怎麼跟行政院主計總處爭取預算，你有沒有想過？未來他的社會福利和教育扶助，你想過嗎？還有最重要的是土地的問題，如果按照傳統領域的話，要怎麼樣增劃編原保地？"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員剛剛講平埔族那個部分……"],["高金委員素梅：你告訴我，你在今天的第一大項，談到希望在9月底把法律草案函報行政院審查，11月底要通過行政院會，函送本院審議，你連幾個簡單的大項都不知道，請問你要怎麼樣送？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我會在很快的時間……"],["高金委員素梅：很快是多久？你已經告訴我們了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟會裡面趕快……"],["高金委員素梅：會裡面的誰？"],["曾主任委員智勇：處理面還有……"],["高金委員素梅：處理面的誰？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是負責的綜規處。"],["高金委員素梅：好，綜規處。"],["曾主任委員智勇：最重要的是還要跟地方政府、鄉談。"],["高金委員素梅：三個月之內你可以解決嗎？可以提出來嗎？主委，我建議你，以後在這邊回答問題要小心，因為你在這邊回答的問題都會列入公報。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：列入公報之後，委員會依照這個公報，在這邊追問你很多問題。我本身在這邊22年了，雖然是你口中做很長的立委，應該休息了，但是我要提醒您，這邊有非常多原民的問題需要你一肩扛起來。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：我真的有點擔心，因為剛剛有非常多委員問你非常多問題，你都沒有辦法具體的回答，我都不知道……您在業務範圍之內不僅僅是在原民會，還要跟其他的部會橫向聯繫，你看到沒有？我在這邊安排幾個重要的部會，有幾個部會來，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：十三個到十四個部會。"],["高金委員素梅：對，這幾個部會你都有去拜訪過嗎？你都有告訴他們賴總統的七大政見嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！你剛剛告訴我準備好了，主委，其實你沒有準備好，所以今天我們也不曉得該怎麼詢問您。本席是原住民的立法委員，我不太願意在這邊讓我們自己原住民的族人為難，也不願意讓我們的族人看到主委在這邊出糗，所以我有很多問題問不下去。但是有幾個問題我還是要請其他處來報告一下，第一個，教文處上來一下。現在教文處有非常多課後輔導老師，他們的基本工資還沒達到勞動部今年核定的工資費用，你看到了嗎？我給你公文了沒有？你們的回應是什麼？原民會公然違法耶！勞動部已經說每小時的基本工資是183塊，請問輔導員的工作津貼現在是多少？"],["楊處長正斌：跟委員報告，確實我們的課輔計畫現在也刻正依照……"],["高金委員素梅：你們根本沒有依照勞動部今年1月1日公布的時薪調整，照理說你們馬上就應該要調整，可是你們給我的公文是什麼？主委，這要不要處理一下？什麼時候處理，是等你簽核還是怎麼樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在在簽，我還沒有看到。"],["高金委員素梅：你還沒有看到？為什麼這麼久還沒有？4月份我就給你公文啦！教文處。你們到底會不會無縫接軌啊？我很擔心你們的行政業務沒有辦法無縫接軌。"],["楊處長正斌：跟委員報告，我們現在已經在簽核當中，要……"],["高金委員素梅：要怎麼樣？"],["楊處長正斌：要對過去的……"],["高金委員素梅：你跟所有的教育工作者說一下，你要怎麼處理？"],["楊處長正斌：我們會比照教育部的夜光天使計畫，追溯到今年1月1日以符合最低基本薪資的……"],["高金委員素梅：最低工資是多少？"],["楊處長正斌：我們用鐘點費計算，是183元……"],["高金委員素梅：對嘛！這是勞動部公布的。"],["楊處長正斌：對。"],["高金委員素梅：那現在的工資是多少？"],["楊處長正斌：大概167元左右。"],["高金委員素梅：差了多少？"],["楊處長正斌：差了十幾塊。"],["高金委員素梅：那該不該馬上補足？"],["楊處長正斌：我們現在正在簽核。"],["高金委員素梅：之前不足的部分，是不是要追溯？"],["楊處長正斌：我們現在正在簽核。"],["高金委員素梅：簽核？請問主委，你什麼時候會簽？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我想一個禮拜內。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。主委，我在這邊還要交代您，有幾件事情你一定要做，第一個事情是希望未來我們審預算的時候，就每一個預算別都能清楚知道你們要做些什麼，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：可以喔？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：緊接著馬上就要審你的預算了，你的預算科目、績效指標、預期達到的效益，這些相關事項都要很清楚地告訴我，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["高金委員素梅：你講「可以」喔！"],["曾主任委員智勇：我可以，我可以要求。"],["高金委員素梅：可以要求喔！好。那什麼時候會給我們？"],["高組長文斌：我們按照規定，每年8月31日會送立法院，預算書送達的時候，我們相關的補充說明再提供給委員參考。"],["高金委員素梅：大概什麼時候？主委清不清楚知道我們馬上就要審預算了？"],["曾主任委員智勇：知道。"],["高金委員素梅：知道嘛！那原民會的預算有多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是111……公務預算……"],["高金委員素梅：請問你上任之前有沒有跟原民會各處討論一下你們的業務？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["高金委員素梅：有？那為什麼今天你都回答不出來？"],["曾主任委員智勇：細節的部分還沒有到那麼細，就是幾個方向的確定、先把方向確定。"],["高金委員素梅：那請問原民會裡面有幾個處？"],["曾主任委員智勇：6個局處。"],["高金委員素梅：6個局處的處長，你都垂詢過他們、都詢問過未來要銜接的業務範圍嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有做簡要的報告了。"],["高金委員素梅：今天你要來做業務說明耶！主委，請你加油、努力，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好吧！我只有說「加油、努力」了，期望你趕快趕上進度。不過我很擔心，就是未來原民會的業務到底能不能夠無縫接軌、行政上面會不會順暢，這都是你要去做的。我們都不談賴總統的七大政見，只是行政業務的順暢銜接，可能你都要花很多的時間來努力。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：好，加油，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝高金召委。請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 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不僅僅這個喔。 原民會主委要做的事情要盤點非常多的事情你知道嗎?"},{"start":201.038,"end":208.241,"text":"是。 是。 譬如說你們列舉一下會影響到現在既有的什麼?"},{"start":208.241,"end":211.163,"text":"預算的部分也會影響到啦。 好那你應該怎麼爭取預算?"},{"start":212.83,"end":234.398,"text":"九十八萬人口的話那應該跟行政院主計處主計總處怎麼樣爭取預算你有沒有想過然後未來他的社會福利和教育輔助你想過嗎還有最重要的是土地的問題如果按照傳統領域的話要怎麼樣增化邊緣寶地"},{"start":240.137,"end":260.644,"text":"所以你告訴我你在今天的第一大項就是說你希望在這個9月底把法律草案函報行政院審查11月底要通過行政院會函送大院來審議你連這麼多幾個簡單的大項都不知道請問你要怎麼樣送啊"},{"start":262.165,"end":270.136,"text":"我會在很快的時間很快是多久你已經告訴我們啦跟會裡面跟會裡面會裡面的誰會裡面的誰處裡面處裡面的誰處就是我們這個負責的中規處這裡中規處"},{"start":279.264,"end":293.738,"text":"還有最重要的是還要跟地方政府還要跟這個鄉所以三個月之內你可以解決嗎?可以提出來嗎?所以朱惠美在這邊建議你喔以後在這邊回答問題要小心喔因為你在這邊回答的問題都會列入公報"},{"start":294.659,"end":308.837,"text":"然後列入公報之後會依照這個公報委員在這邊再追問你很多問題啊因為我自己本身在這邊22年了齁雖然是你口中的很長的立委應該休息了但是呢我要提醒您"},{"start":310.038,"end":338.857,"text":"在這邊有非常多的問題原民的問題需要你要一肩扛起來啊我真的有點擔心欸因為剛剛有非常多的委員問到你非常多的問題你都沒有辦法具體的回答我都不知道您在你的業務範圍之內不僅僅是在原民會喔你還要跟其他的會其他的部會要橫向聯繫耶你看到沒有今天我在這邊安排了幾個重要有幾個部會來你知道嗎"},{"start":341.869,"end":347.557,"text":"十三十三個到十四個部會對所以這幾個部會你都有去拜訪過嗎你都有告訴他你這個總統賴總統的七大政見嗎"},{"start":355.97,"end":380.522,"text":"主委你沒有準備好所以今天我們也不曉得該怎麼詢問您因為本席是原住民立法委員我不太願意在這邊讓我們自己的原住民的族人為難也不願意讓我們族人看到主委您在這邊出糗所以我有很多問題問不下去但是有幾個問題齁我還要請其他出來報告一下"},{"start":381.902,"end":385.225,"text":"第一個就是我們的老委會教文處教文處請您上來一下您知道我們現在教文處我們有非常多的課後輔導的老師他們在這個基本工資還不達到老委會在今年核定的工資費用你看到了嗎我給你公文了沒有你們的回應是什麼"},{"start":411.977,"end":418.504,"text":"原民會你們公然違法耶老委會已經說每小時的基本工資是183塊現在請問一下我們的這個輔導員的工作津貼現在是多少錢"},{"start":425.61,"end":438.077,"text":"你們根本沒有依照勞委會在1月1號今年公布的實行調整。你們照理說應該馬上就要來調整。你們給我公文是什麼?主委這要不要處理一下?什麼時候處理?是等你簽合嗎?還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":453.547,"end":453.887,"text":"高金素梅等22人擬具"},{"start":471.934,"end":500.385,"text":"要怎麼樣?你跟我們所有的這個教育工作者說一下你要怎麼處理?我們會比照這個教育部的夜光天使的計畫追溯到今年的1月1號來這個符合最低的這個基本薪資最低工資是多少?最低工資我們是用中點費來計算是183元對嘛這是老委會公布的嘛那你現在工資是多少?大概167元左右好差了多少?"},{"start":501.118,"end":501.918,"text":"主委,我還要在這邊交代您"},{"start":524.84,"end":553.172,"text":"有幾件事情你一定要做第一個事情呢就是希望未來我們審預算的時候每一個預算別都要清楚知道你們要做些什麼可以嗎好可以齁可以緊接著就馬上要審你的預算了你的預算科目績效指標預期達到的效應這些相關的事項都要很清楚的告訴我可以嗎可以你講可以喔我可以我可以要求可以要求齁好那什麼時候會給我們"},{"start":560.851,"end":582.018,"text":"來回答一下我們按照規定到這個每年的8月31號會送立法院那我們到時候這個預算是送達的時候我們再請相關的補充說明再提供給委員做參考那大概什麼時候主委清不清楚知道我們就馬上要審預算了知道知道嗎那原民會的預算有多少"},{"start":589.198,"end":606.863,"text":"應該是111公務預算請問一下原民會你上任之前有沒有跟我們原民會的各處來討論一下你們的業務有那為什麼今天你回答都回答不出來"},{"start":610.142,"end":616.967,"text":"細節部分還沒有到幾個方向的確定請問一下原民會裡面有幾個處六個局處那六個局處的處長你都跟他們詢詢過都詢問過未來要衍接的業務範圍嗎有做檢要的報告了做檢要的報告今天也要來做業務說明"},{"start":638.43,"end":667.322,"text":"主委請你加油努力好不好好吧我只有說加油努力啦期望你趕快趕上進度不過我很擔心就是說未來原民會的業務到底能不能夠無縫接軌行政上面會不會順暢這個都是你要去做的我們都不談賴總統的七大政見只是行政業務的順暢銜接可能你都要花很多的時間來努力了"},{"start":667.903,"end":668.063,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba18d1b90433b4dcfacb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cd0241d18e79cd8f1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:59:31 - 10:07:51","影片長度":"00:08:20","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":500,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:07:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:59:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":623,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時59分）謝謝主席，主委有請。"],["主席：請主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。本席要針對5月13日原住民族語言傳播大樓搬遷的員工權益的專題報告來做後續討論。因為它直接影響原文會跟原語會，加起來差不多五百多名員工，如果再加上配偶、家眷等等，可能會影響接近兩千位族人的權益。今天討論的主題叫做都市原住民，原住民族語言傳播大樓搬到桃園，未來這些人搬進來，他也是都市原住民的一部分，在上次我們討論到的這個安置配套裡面，曾經有討論過是不是要做員工宿舍，或者是合宜住宅這樣子的一個方式，請問這個案子的後續主委有沒有掌握？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們應該是這兩天才剛跟這兩個基金會討論，我們已經討論到了，希望挹注一些經費來解決他們的一些問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：挹注什麼樣的經費，解決什麼樣的問題？"],["曾主任委員智勇：特別是有關這兩個基金會員工搬遷的權益，我們會協助他們，來幫忙爭取他們要蓋這個的經費，希望以明年度的預算來協助。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是要幫他們蓋員工宿舍的意思嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是先請處長回答一下？"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["楊處長正斌：跟委員報告，按照勞基法第十條之一，確實是要協助兩基金會的員工、提供必要的協助，在搬遷永久會址這件事情上面，協助的方案包括搬遷的補助、交通的補助。另外，有關租屋這部分的補助等等，都還要等待兩基金會溝通好了之後，形成一個具體的方案再報到董事會這邊通過，通過之後才會送到會裡面這邊，由我們來備查。"],["牛委員煦庭：已經快要遷移了不是嗎？"],["楊處長正斌：沒有，我們的建築土木工程會到明年3月才完工，室內裝修要到明年底才完工，實際搬遷的時程大概會落在115年3月到5月。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這樣反而更好，相對來講，你有很多的時間還可以做安排。"],["楊處長正斌：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但因為之前的答詢我一路聽下來，感覺也是變來變去，一下講說會租屋補貼，一下講說會發交通津貼，然後現在又講說可以研擬新的方案，你們什麼時候才會確定？"],["楊處長正斌：大概3個月會形成具體的方案。"],["牛委員煦庭：3個月？好。上次答詢的時候你們說有徵詢桃園市政府的意見，不過看起來桃園市政府配合的意願不高，但我們要做個釐清啦！後來我去了解了這整個提案的來龍去脈，它其實滿希望在A16、A17附近，就是在航空城的蛋白區來做一塊專有的，像合宜住宅的部分，然後讓員工以相對便宜的價格來認購，概念上來說我覺得這是不錯的，但是我們也問了桃園市政府的意見，我承諾過我來負責協助溝通協調嘛，桃園市政府目前的狀況、回應是這樣，就是說A16、A17中間是航空城的區段徵收，現在還沒有走到配地的階段，所以以你要再做用地取得來說，客觀上來講它有些困難，但在還沒有取得配地的階段，不表示我們不可以在這個案子上做一些努力，為什麼呢？因為A16、A17周邊現在其實有非常多是中央農田水利署的土地。我想請問原民會，有沒有針對中央的橫向連結，先去瞭解未來你們能不能先取得一部分的土地，讓你們未來如果要興建員工宿舍或安置住宅是有土地可以用的？"],["楊處長正斌：跟委員報告，包括合宜住宅、社會住宅這兩個方案，因為兩基金會還沒有把具體的規劃送到會裡面，所以我們還是要等兩基金會送這些具體的規劃方案過來之後再來做協助，包括剛剛委員所提到的一些土地取得上面的協調等等。"],["牛委員煦庭：我上次問你們的時候，你們就講說是桃園市政府不配合，然後現在問你的時候，你變成說是兩基金會還沒有定案，這種答詢的態度本席不是很滿意。好，沒關係，新官上任，我總是會給你機會，3個月內至少全部的方案要出來，你要怎麼去完善、怎麼樣把土地的狀況先做調查，包含橫向溝通，我要求原民會來做相關的處理。本席認為，與其發交通津貼或租屋補助，你如果願意橫向溝通取得土地，用員工宿舍的方式，衝擊最小、福利最大，我覺得才能夠澈底解決本來在你這個地方、原視或原民會上班的人，因為搬遷可能想要離職的狀況，只有搬到附近，解決通勤問題才能夠解決相關的問題，也只有住在附近，用最短的距離，透過機捷的方式上班，才能降低桃園的交通衝擊。剛好旁邊重劃有土地，既然這是一個中央的政策，為了照顧原住民的族人同胞，為了讓原住民語言傳播大樓的搬遷能夠順利，它是一個中央政策的配套，當然中央應該都有角色。","所以現在一步一步來，取得土地的部分就拿中央的土地撥用，它其實是一個相對容易的方式，後續要興建，不管你講是要興建只租不賣的員工宿舍，或者是用合宜住宅低價認購的方式，原民會該編的預算要先匡出來做準備。中央的政策就由中央處理，行政程序上我相信桃園市政府會非常配合。但是如果一個中央的政策還要求桃園市政府出地，甚至要求桃園市政府出預算的時候，本席作為桃園市的民意代表，我可以告訴你，地方財政其實非常吃緊，建設也非常多。中央的事就要由中央出資源，照顧原住民同胞大家都會配合，但如果中央願意出這個資源，願意推動這樣的政策，桃園市政府如果不配合，我也會帶頭要求桃園市政府配合行政流程。我認為行政流程的困難不高，土地剛好有農水署，我已經把單位都講出來了，請原民會積極溝通，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好的。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果可以無償就無償，不能無償，該撥經費購買、價購都可以，這個交給你們處理，但我希望三個月內得到明確的答案。再來，如果您取得了土地，我也想問一下原民會現在的概念，你配套規劃的定位是什麼？你要蓋合宜住宅讓他們認購嗎？還是要蓋員工宿舍，變成你在這邊上班就可以長期租用？是用哪一種模式規劃？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們再跟原文會討論，還是原文會來回答一下？"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，現在有想法可以回答的就回答。"],["瑪拉歐斯董事長：我們跟桃園市政府包括原民局和都發單位，現在正在討論這個案子，在三個月內一定提出。當然像剛才委員提到的，讓員工的福利極大化，我覺得能夠有員工宿舍的方案最好。之前因為原文會是財團法人，並沒有那麼強的行政協調的角度跟位置，所以這個部分會再跟原民會配合。"],["牛委員煦庭：請原民會主委幫忙，你是正式的機關，人家算你下轄的單位，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：積極的橫向聯繫，你們部裡面的長官也要協助，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：先做橫向串聯，趕快把土地的問題先解決，我希望可以看到好的員工宿舍，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：三個月之內我要得到明確的答案，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：感謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。","請高金召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.498468750000001,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.42659375,"end":7.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.82721875,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.41346875,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.302843750000001,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.809093750000002,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.19721875,"end":49.221593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.78784375,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.508468750000006,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.29534375,"end":64.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.54409375,"end":76.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.45784375000001,"end":78.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.61784375,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.89596875000001,"end":84.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.65909375000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.75034375,"end":96.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.96096875,"end":97.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.87221875,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.13784375,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.36471875000001,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.76096875,"end":107.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.79471875,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.16596875,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.21221875,"end":121.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.44346875000001,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.78096875000001,"end":114.79784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.96971875000001,"end":125.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.59784375000001,"end":126.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.20096875,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.37784375,"end":132.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.49971875,"end":135.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.53721875000002,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.89784375000002,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.14659375000002,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.41659375,"end":151.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.30659375000002,"end":154.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.09971875000002,"end":167.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.68534375000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.19909375,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.38409375,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.32284375,"end":185.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.49159375000002,"end":187.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":192.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.38096875000002,"end":190.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.16971875000002,"end":193.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.53659375,"end":243.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.60471875000002,"end":251.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.68784375,"end":255.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.10909375,"end":261.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.67784375,"end":266.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.24659375000005,"end":267.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.00596875,"end":272.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.28784375000004,"end":278.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.80596875000003,"end":310.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.42971875,"end":398.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.98971875,"end":401.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.14096875,"end":403.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.77784375000005,"end":404.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.81159375000004,"end":405.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.38534375,"end":406.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.51596875,"end":421.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.70346875,"end":429.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.43221875,"end":431.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.08159375,"end":435.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.70971875000004,"end":438.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.99159375000005,"end":441.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.44721875000005,"end":477.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.82971875000004,"end":496.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.51659375,"end":483.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEA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- 09:59:26","影片長度":"00:08:29","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":509,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T09:59:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:50:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時51分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。我們都知道很多原住民因為生活所以希望來都市找更好的工作，到都市尋找工作的時候，經常受到歧視、工作、住房及文化等的多重挑戰，政府過去在都市原住民族發展計畫的預算投入，請問原住民族委員會是否有一個明確的評估，以及指出哪一些的預算成效如何？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們從112年起推動的都市地區原住民族發展方案，112年到116年，5年的預期經費大概是7.6億，現在我們還正在擬具這個條例的草案，我們會在近期請行政院審議，也希望大院能夠跟我們的草案一起併同審議。"],["麥委員玉珍：我想要問的是成效，我們的成效是如何？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有了後面的審查之後，我們希望有一些的成效，比如各個學校，尤其像新北市有5所學校的補助，以及推動22個地方政府的原資中心，我們還辦理15所原住民部落大學的終身學習，以及受理文化體驗營的活動，有很多的教育課程我們都辦在都會區。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝主委，因為有很多的需求要解決，這只是一個課程的過程，所以像居住的部分，我們有統計過原住民族家庭自有住宅率，就是要貸款買房子的部分，因為比較有壓力，所以比較偏低。許多生活在都市的原住民，所面臨的問題就是遭受到歧視以及刻板印象，部分的屋主還是不願把房子租給我們的原住民。除了租屋補貼及社會住宅的支援，請問這些問題如何去改善，現在的狀況如何？因為我們希望是真正有照顧到。"],["曾主任委員智勇：針對剛剛委員講的，我們希望能夠持續照顧到我們的原住民同胞。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，因為有很多遭受到這樣子的，我們新住民跟原住民都會有，雖然大家都說不歧視，但是很多人的潛意識還是會歧視，所以遭受到這樣子的一個部分，我們要如何去改善？不只是租屋補貼以及社會住宅，還有一般要去找工作或租屋都會遭到拒絕。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我請處長回答一下。"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，其實現在社會住宅已經規定有一定比例要保障……"],["麥委員玉珍：是、是、是，我是說除了這兩項以外，有沒有其他是要幫助到原住民的，我是這樣的意思。"],["劉處長維哲：有，像本會的建購、修繕過去是11萬跟22萬，最近我們希望再進一步把補助的經費調高10%，這項作法已經報到行政院去爭取行政院的支持。"],["麥委員玉珍：我知道，我是說除了這兩項之外，我們有沒有辦法……因為有身分別才有這個補助嘛，除了這兩項外，我們有很多受到歧視或者是不給租屋的情形，這樣子有沒有其他的協助？好，沒關係，我認為原住民在外地很辛苦啦，要離鄉背井工作，還有居住、就業的問題，所以有很多原住民的朋友找工作也是面臨低薪、工作不穩定、職業不安全等勞動權益問題。經過統計，有將近五分之一的都市原住民從事非典型的工作，凸顯原住民在就業市場是不利的，我的意思是這樣。現在除了原住民工作保障法的保障外，對於提供就業、創業的培訓，創造更多的機會，想要請教主委，在這方面有什麼策略？就是除了租屋還有就業的補助以外，還有沒有什麼更好的策略？因為我們不是要靠補助來生活，所以希望您上任後有更多完善的策略。"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在我們原住民的失業率跟平地的失業率確實是有拉近，沒有相差很遠，這個計畫我們也會持續來協助，像彰化有一個原住民促進就業方案，我們會繼續來實施。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝主委。因為剛才我們的委員有問到，說有一些文化的差異，我們現在想要保留我們的語言還有文化，像拜土地公不見得就是原住民，但是我們希望的是，不是說因為你拜土地公，你就變成原住民，不是，舉例來說好了，像我們越南拜土地公，我們是有一個象徵去拜，這樣才是代表你有這個象徵，不是因為你拜土地公，你就變成原住民，不是這樣的邏輯啦！所以我們也希望把原住民文化還有歷史真正地保留，因為沒有保留的話就會減少，像現在我們原住民的師資也變少了，導致很多學生沒辦法去學原住民自己的語言，所以為了要讓我們的語言可以發展，我希望主委這邊不是只有培訓，讓我們有就業、創業的知能，我覺得語言還有文化的師資也可以加強，這樣才能真正地把我們原來的原住民文化還有語言推廣得更好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們希望是這樣……"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望不管是哪一族的原住民，都有自己的特色跟文化，希望原住民族委員會更努力，真正地解決我們都市的環境，還有居住、就業的問題，並且保留我們原來的語言還有文化。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝主委。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：感謝麥玉珍委員質詢。","請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":5.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.498468750000001,"end":6.629093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.80784375,"end":33.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.42659375,"end":50.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.744093750000005,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.330343750000004,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.24971875000001,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.42659375,"end":75.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.74909375,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.94721875,"end":79.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.30971875,"end":80.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.60909375,"end":81.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.72284375000001,"end":84.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.82346875,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.85159375,"end":102.56346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.85034375000001,"end":103.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.72784375,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.00034375000001,"end":118.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.62846875000001,"end":119.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.40471875,"end":128.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.67784375000001,"end":127.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.79971875,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.09284375000001,"end":182.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.17534375000002,"end":184.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.74034375000002,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.86659375000002,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.40596875,"end":220.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.22159375,"end":211.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.51659375000003,"end":214.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.95846875,"end":221.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.12284375000002,"end":222.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.13971875000001,"end":222.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.15659375,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.27471875,"end":222.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.39284375000003,"end":222.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.57846875,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.59534375,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.64596875,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.66284375,"end":223.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.69659375,"end":222.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.71346875,"end":222.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.73034375,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.03409375,"end":224.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.18971875000003,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.59409375,"end":239.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.76659375000003,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.95159375000003,"end":251.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.56534375,"end":273.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.57471875000005,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.60721875,"end":321.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.63034375,"end":350.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.05596875000003,"end":353.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.84909375,"end":367.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.25721875000005,"end":361.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.47971875,"end":373.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.47471875,"end":375.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.58784375000005,"end":380.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.37221875,"end":390.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.77159375,"end":414.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.90284375000005,"end":420.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.67409375000005,"end":454.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.93409375000005,"end":431.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.27346875,"end":446.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.34096875,"end":446.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.51284375,"end":453.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.59284375000004,"end":478.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.24721875000006,"end":479.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.04034375000003,"end":504.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.40784375000004,"end":50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是。我想要問的是成效。我們的要的成效是如何。"},{"start":94.898,"end":118.106,"text":"有了這個這個這個後面的這個審查之後我們希望吼有有一些的這個成效就是比如說比如說各個學校的尤其是新北市有五所學校的這個補助了吼還有推動22個地方政府的這個研資中心我們還辦理這個15所原住民的部落大學這個終身學習還有"},{"start":119.966,"end":123.868,"text":"受理文化體驗營活動及類似教育課程都在都會來辦。謝謝主委。因為有很多需求要解決,只是一個課程的過程。所以像居住的部分,我們有統計過原住民族家庭自租的"},{"start":148.258,"end":167.184,"text":"自住宅就是要買房子就是要房貸的部分所以比較有壓力比較偏低所以許多生活在都市的原住民在面臨的問題就是因為遭受就是歧視還有刻板印象這個部分的租戶人還是給我們的原住民除了"},{"start":171.306,"end":184.253,"text":"租屋補貼還有社會租宅的資源請問這些的問題如何去改善我們的狀況如何因為我們希望的是真正的照顧到我們希望剛剛委員講的我們能夠持續來照顧到我們的原住民的同胞"},{"start":192.532,"end":220.084,"text":"是是因為有很多遭到這樣子的就是我們新住民跟原住民都是會有就是雖然是說大家都不起事啦但是很多人的潛意識還是起事的所以說遭受到這樣子的一個部分所以我們要如何去改善啊不只是那個租補貼還有社會租宅還有我們一般的要去找工作還是租物會遭到就是拒絕"},{"start":222.788,"end":251.213,"text":"好,我們是不是請署長回答一下。包括委員其實現在社會住宅它已經規定有一定比例要保障的住宅。是是是,我說除了這兩項外,那有沒有其他施收要幫助到我們的原住民這樣的意思?有,像我們本身的,我們本會的建構修站過去是11萬跟22萬,那現在我們最近再進一步希望再把它補助的經費再調高10%,那這項做法已經報到行政院去爭取行政院的支持。"},{"start":254.106,"end":279.415,"text":"除了這兩項外說我們有就是沒有辦法就是因為有身分表來去才有這個補助嘛除了這兩項外說有很多我們有受到這樣子的歧視啊或者是不給租物這樣子是有沒有其他的協助啦所以好沒關係我我是認為是說我們在原住民在在外地是"},{"start":279.855,"end":308.473,"text":"檸檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬檬�"},{"start":308.613,"end":320.331,"text":"吐顯示我們原住民在就業的市場是不利的。我的意思是這樣。除了就是現在原住民工作保障法還有就是"},{"start":322.691,"end":330.553,"text":"保障外對於提供就業的創業培訓這個更多的機會就是要想要請教我們主委在這個方面有什麼策略就是租屋還有就業除了補助以外有沒有什麼策略更好的因為我們不是要靠補助來生活所以希望說上任後有更多的完善的策略"},{"start":353.066,"end":373.793,"text":"好 那我們現在我們原住民的這個失業率跟平地的失業率確實是有拉近沒有相差很遠那我們這個計畫我們也會持續來協助希望這個像那個彰化他在這裡有一個原住民促進就業方案繼續來實施啦"},{"start":379.015,"end":382.798,"text":"謝謝我們的主委因為剛才我們的委員有問到說一些文化的差異就像說很多人就是因為語言我們現在想要保留嘛保留我們的語言還有文化像說"},{"start":399.469,"end":419.97,"text":"貝土地公不見得就是是製作一樣是是原住民但是我們希望的就是說我們是不是說因為你拜土地公你就變原住民不是應該應該是說例子好了像我們越南我們拜土地公是我們是有"},{"start":420.691,"end":424.633,"text":"向真來去拜這樣才是代表說你是有這個象徵不是因為你拜土地公你就是變成原住民不是這樣的邏輯所以我們也希望說把原住民的文化還有歷史真正的是保留因為沒有保留的話就會變成是減少現在就是像我們原住民的師資也會變少希望說這邊的話就導致很多學生沒辦法去學"},{"start":450.145,"end":450.445,"text":"吳俊仁議員吳俊仁議員吳俊仁議員"},{"start":480.44,"end":480.76,"text":"謝謝 感謝 感謝麥"}]}},{"id":"153337","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153337","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebafa1e86eb86a92da1cb22e1ce6086f58bbeba37a180c9b1cdc1dff94e1de332545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:42:10 - 09:50:47","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案。二、處理財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、邀請原住民族委員會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都會原住民權利發展條例草案」案。(二)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。(三)委員陳瑩等16人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案。(四)委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等21人擬具「都市原住民發展條例草案」案。【詢答及處理；第(四)案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":517,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-21"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T09:50:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T09:42:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時42分）謝謝召委。不好意思，我請主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我們知道你也才剛來接任，其實有些事情你也可以請你們底下的官員幫你，你們處長什麼，你可以請他幫你做提醒、回答。首先我想要先請教主委，你有說過平埔族正名的修法，希望讓平埔族人儘早取得身分，這是不是你認為一個很重要，然後必須要積極推動的一個政策？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，也要依據憲法的這個判決，我們要儘快的，已經拖了一年半，要讓平埔族的鄉親取得原住民的身分。"],["張委員宏陸：那麼你有想到怎麼去做了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們已經先認定這個族群，譬如說西拉雅或者是噶哈巫，或者是巴宰，先認定族群，再來認定個人，希望我們這裡趕快準備好，讓平埔族能夠先取得原住民的身分，至於權利義務，我們後面再來做討論。"],["張委員宏陸：如果這樣子的話，主委，你的意思是對族群先正名，然後再來是取得身分，然後再取得權利，大概這幾個步驟，是不是？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，你有沒有聽過一句臺語的諺語：「有唐山公，無唐山媽」，這個意思就是說，如果真的要追源溯柢一直往上查，有可能全臺灣有平埔族血緣的，你有沒有預估大概會有多少人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：憲法法庭它是說要有客觀地認定，還有它的民俗，還有它的文化，還可以來印證，那麼應該這個……"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦！主委，我必須說，憲法法庭並沒有講客觀認定的標準在哪裡，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["張委員宏陸：而客觀的認定，其實最主要的，到最後我們原民會可能是要做最大的去訂定客觀認定的標準，也有可能文化界的人士也會出來說有哪些文化有什麼的。我講一個最簡單的，拜地基主是不是平埔族的文化？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個……"],["張委員宏陸：你可能不知道，也沒有關係，但你可以去查，有很多歷史學者或什麼的，他認為拜地基主是從平埔族的文化來的。你們的處長知不知道？"],["雅柏甦詠．博伊哲努處長：現在在臺南的平埔族群確實是有這樣的一個習俗存在。"],["張委員宏陸：確實嘛！但拜地基主不是只有臺南，我看全臺灣都有拜地基主吧！全臺灣都有吧！我只有簡單地講這一個就好了，全臺灣很多文化其實都跟平埔族的文化是息息相關的，如果要追根究柢，你的前幾代，十幾代、二十幾代前，搞不好每個人都有平埔族的血統。我今天講這個只是要跟主委說，你要證明平埔族什麼的我非常非常認同，我真的非常認同。但主委，我這樣講比較不好意思啦！你如果說你要馬上積極去推動，我認為要謹慎一點、要謹慎一點，因為我剛剛只有講這個喔！大家底下都說每個人都有啊！每個人都可以成為平埔族喔！以後全臺灣的人，大概有七成都說他是平埔族。我為什麼要特別講這個呢？主委，我們今天討論的這個法條，你覺得如果平埔族每個都正名了，全臺灣有七成以上的人都是平埔族，適不適用這個法條？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還是會有一些條件的限制，至少在日本時期的戶籍登記上有「熟」跟「平」的註記的話，那是比較可以認定是平埔族的。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，主委，你回答不要這麼直接，你可以不要這麼直接，我剛剛講的，如果以歷史的規範來講，日據時代是日據時代，日據時代臺灣是被占領的，現在臺灣是一個獨立的國家耶！我們中華民國耶！我們怎麼還……那我們臺灣的歷史文化是要別人來幫我們寫還是我們自己寫，對不對？我擔心的是這個，如果平埔族，你說在你任內你想要把它推動，那就會是我剛剛講的，有可能七成的人都要申請自己是平埔族啊！他有沒有這個權力？他有，他有這個權力！我跟你講，到時候你就會很麻煩。","所以今天的這一個條例如果真的通過了，所有平埔族的人也可以要求適用，這樣子在原鄉的原住民朋友怎麼辦？我的意思是我不反對喔！我不反對要照顧原鄉的喔！我也支持積極照顧在都市裡面的原住民，我也很支持！我以前就是民政局長，這是我的業務，我非常支持。但我們應該要將一個法令去做通盤的思考及未來怎麼變化，不然我覺得我們會對不起很多人。我們在原鄉的怎麼辦？我們先不講平埔族的，我如果在都市裡面，我可能把很多人的戶籍都遷到都市來喔！那原鄉怎麼辦？原鄉越來越沒有人，那怎麼辦？真正的根就不見了耶！我比較擔心的是這個。我不反對要去照顧都市原住民，我是希望能夠找到更好的方式，兼顧原鄉跟在都市的原住民，我們如何去求一個平衡點、如何去做？我看了一下今天的這個，我真的覺得還有一些東西我們可以再仔細地思考一下、再仔細地思考一下，有些法條的內容我不在這邊多說，但我覺得還可以更細緻一點、更好一點。","我覺得做任何事情，尤其是主委，你應該要以照顧全臺灣所有原住民朋友的高度去看任何一個法案，我覺得要，因為到時候的資源使用要怎麼分配，其實你是占絕大多數的主導權的，我們必須要兼顧所有在臺灣不管任何一個角落的原住民，這點我真的要在這邊特別說。而我剛剛說的平埔族問題，你真的要好好地思考一下，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢，也謝謝曾主委。","繼續我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-21","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳瑩","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","黃捷","王美惠","李柏毅","黃仁","吳琪銘","許宇甄","盧縣一","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","丁學忠","張智倫","黃建賓"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案計4案；二、處理財\n團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、邀請原住民族委員\n會主任委員率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；四、審查(一)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「都\n會原住民權利發展條例草案」案、(二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「都市原住民發展條例\n草案」案、( 三) 委員陳瑩等16 人擬具「都市地區原住民族發展條例草案」案、( 四) 委員伍麗華\nSaidhai Tahovecahe 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諸位我必須說啦客觀的認定憲法法庭並沒有講客觀的認定的標準在哪裡對不對那你客觀的認定其實最主要的到最後呢我們原民會可能是要做最大的去訂定客觀認定的標準那也有可能文化界的人士然後這些也會出來說有哪些文化有什麼的我講一個最簡單的"},{"start":196.372,"end":220.78,"text":"拜地基族是不是平埔族的文化你可能不知道也沒有關係但你可以去查有很多歷史的學者或什麼他認為拜地基族是從平埔族的文化來的你們的處長知不知道在台南的平埔族群他們確實是有這樣的一個習俗存在"},{"start":222.216,"end":244.093,"text":"確實嘛齁但拜地基族不是只有台南啊我跟全台灣每個人都有拜地基族吧全台灣都有吧齁我只有簡單的講這一個就好了很多的全台灣的文化其實都跟平埔族的文化是息息相關的如果我們要追根究柢"},{"start":245.12,"end":263.282,"text":"你的前幾代十幾代二十幾代前搞不好每個人都有平埔族的血統我今天講這個我只要跟主委你說你要證明平埔族什麼這個我非常非常的認同我真的非常的認同但主委"},{"start":265.157,"end":288.922,"text":"我這樣講比較不好意思啦你如果說你要馬上積極去推動我認為要謹慎一點要謹慎一點因為我剛只有講這個喔大家底下都說每個人都有啊每個人都是可以成為平埔族喔以後全台灣的人大概有七成都說他是平埔族那"},{"start":291.417,"end":292.959,"text":"我為什麼要特別講這個呢?"},{"start":292.959,"end":293.46,"text":"主委,我們今天討論的這個法條,對不對?"},{"start":293.46,"end":296.544,"text":"你覺得如果平埔族每個都證明了全台灣有七成以上的人都是平埔族,是不是用這個法條?"},{"start":314.266,"end":328.94,"text":"我們還是會有一些條件的限制因為至少在日本的戶籍登記上有熟跟平的註記的話那是比較可以認定是平補足的"},{"start":329.62,"end":346.428,"text":"不不不不不不 主委 我真的不 你回答不要這麼直接 你可以不要這麼直接我剛剛講的 如果以歷史的規範來講 日據時代是日據時代 日據時代台灣是被佔領的 我們現在台灣是一個獨立的國家欸"},{"start":351.59,"end":371.262,"text":"我們中華民國捏我們怎麼還台灣那我們台灣的這個歷史文化我們是要別人來幫我們寫還是我們自己寫對不對我擔心的是這個如果你平埔族你說在你任內你想要把他推動那我剛剛講的有可能七成的人我都要申請我是平埔族啊他有沒有這個權利"},{"start":376.445,"end":393.825,"text":"他有他有這個權利他有這個權利我跟你講你到時候你就會很麻煩所以我們今天的這一個條例如果真的通過了所有平埔族的人他也可以要求適用那這樣子我們在原鄉的原住民朋友怎麼辦"},{"start":397.049,"end":420.094,"text":"我的意思是說我不反對喔我也反對要照顧原鄉的喔我也支持積極照顧在這個都市裡面的原住民我也很支持我以前就是民政局長這是我的業務我非常的支持但我們應該要去把一個法令啊齁要通盤的思考跟未來怎麼變化"},{"start":421.616,"end":421.736,"text":"主席"},{"start":443.43,"end":446.493,"text":"我看了一下這個今天這個我真的覺得說"},{"start":467.373,"end":488.736,"text":"還有一些東西我們可以再仔細的思考一下啦在仔細的思考一下有的法條的內容齁我不在這邊多說但我覺得還可以給他更細緻一點更好一點我覺得做任何事情尤其是主委你應該要以照顧全台灣所有的原住民朋友的一個高度去看任何一個法案"},{"start":489.617,"end":489.717,"text":"張宏陸委員"}]}},{"id":"153336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba1e78d5190d8920c68c05f44c04a464dbbeba37a180c9b1cd3b970c124de97d675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:17:55 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partisan，也就是在美國的民主、共和兩黨對這個意見大概也有共識……"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：外顯的行為就是撥款法案，臺灣其實是最有高度共識的，從得票數跟討論過程包含麥考爾（McCaul）的發言，但我現在講的是，現在你作為一個國家的外交部部長，這兩個人之中一定有一個會成為未來的美國總統，我們政府要不要回應？怎麼回應？本席現在在外交委員會正式問你這個問題。"],["林部長佳龍：所謂戰略清晰，應該講說戰略越來越清晰，其實美國對臺或對中的政策是建立在臺灣關係法，這個是最基本，然後才有所謂3個公報跟6項保證。過去好像是所謂的戰略模糊，其實還是要按照美國實際上的政策跟臺灣關係法去做解釋……"],["王委員定宇：美國、日本，其實包含北約，他們過去的ambiguity或者strategic ambiguity，它代表的大概是在2013年以前，方便跟臺灣與中國之間的互動保持模糊，這個模糊裡面有一個核心，就是在是否出兵協助這件事情保持模糊，我讓你猜，可是那時候因為中國的兵力遠不及於美國，賭他們不敢challenge、不敢挑戰。這兩年，特別是從川普任內的最後一年到這兩年，在臺灣的安全議題上，就如同剛才部長講的，逐漸走向戰略清晰，不管是前官員或現任官員。但現在這一題我要請教部長的是，你認為這兩位的發言可不可以反映或者是否代表美國行政部門的態度？因為一個是現任三軍統帥，一個是曾任三軍統帥，是不是代表美國對於臺灣安全議題的戰略清晰表明了態度？因為拜登大概已經講了第5次了，他們會出兵協防臺灣，川普是說直接去炸北京，這當然是他習慣的用詞跟修辭。你作為外交部部長，或者我們外交部的同仁，這有沒有代表美國行政部門的態度？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，我沒有辦法替他們講，不過從這個角度來看，我們是在維持現狀，而且在我們政策延續之下，是中共不斷的改變現狀，出現所謂的新常態，這引起了全世界的緊張，先從安倍首相講的：臺灣有事就是日本有事，其實他最重要的一句話就是，日美安保有事……"],["王委員定宇：這個背景我瞭解。"],["林部長佳龍：同樣美國跟這些第一島鏈國家……"],["王委員定宇：這一題我要結束了，我建議外交部北美司這邊去思考一下，這一題要不要回應，剛才部長講得很好，我們不要替美國政府回應，認為他是首相，戰略清晰等，我們不替外國政府去分析這個……"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：但我們政府怎麼去回應美國總統大選的議題，因為現在還有5個月才投票，後面還有大選辯論，這個議題會越來越多，所以我們國家的外交部應該對這個事情要有一個穩定的看法，對我們臺灣國家安全戰略有益的看法，這是我今天提這一題要提醒外交部的。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：第二題是有關眾議院外委會主席McCaul，他昨天來我們臺灣的外交委員會，我印象中他大概是美國第一個外交委員會主席進到我們外交委員會的會議室，以前Ed Royce是到院長室，沒有進到這裡來。他後來到議場外面拍照時也提到這兩天臺灣年輕人的民主抗議活動，他認為這是呈現出臺灣的力量、民主的象徵，他還說臺灣是民主的燈塔，他還直接跟習近平（Chairman Xi）講：這跟中國的香港，也就香港民運跟八九學運、六四天安門不一樣，這是一個sign of strength、力量的展現，他也提到希望民主國家對抗獨裁威脅，美國的民主、共和與臺灣的民進黨、國民黨可以一起合作抵禦中國的脅迫，同時提到國防力量等等，我這邊要具體問的是，他站在韓國瑜院長身邊提到FMF，也就是無償軍援還有軍售的項目，他站在那裡代表美國的兩黨，表達他們會儘速交付。我請教外交部，這算是軍售項目，也許不是你們的直接項目，但是麥考爾是外委會主席，我們有沒有瞭解他所提的儘速交付是什麼項目？儘速是多快？你們有沒有掌握這個訊息？"],["林部長佳龍：過去所有答應的項目，因為是產線的問題，他們對於「儘速交付」的方向是這樣，可是實際上當然有些項目會比較快，有些項目比較慢。"],["王委員定宇：對啦，我當然知道有些項目會比較快，但現在他已經表達他們要儘速交付了嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：他也代表他是by partisan表達這個意見，也許跟美團和國防部或者國安會，我的意思是，外交部有沒有掌握到？有或沒有？他們要交付什麼項目？進度大概是？比方說F-16V會提早半年？海馬斯會提早5個月？我不知道，我剛才是用猜測的，我是說外交部有沒有掌握這個訊息？"],["林部長佳龍：有一些訊息……應該講說，他最主要的目的是臺灣的國會要支持啦！"],["王委員定宇：部長，不方便講就說不方便講，在這裡如果不方便講，我可以尊重。"],["林部長佳龍：這不是美國單方面要不要交付，因為有時候涉及到軍購，這是我們國會的預算，其實他來是by partisan，他希望美國by partisan，臺灣也by partisan……"],["王委員定宇：我們的預算都通過了喔！發價書等都在跑流程，後來因為COVID、又因為俄烏戰爭，還有一些軍火問題，我的意思是說，如果沒有掌握或不便講，我可以接受，我們不見得一定要在這邊討論，但我的意思是說，如果有掌握，能夠讓國人瞭解，當然我們越透明是越好，所以目前外交部有沒有掌握這個訊息？"],["林部長佳龍：我是有看到一些訊息……"],["王委員定宇：可不可以講？"],["林部長佳龍：但因為這還是要跟國防部，還有我們到底哪些項目是……"],["王委員定宇：OK，不便講我們就……"],["林部長佳龍：外電回來跟實際情況還有主管機關……"],["王委員定宇：不便講，基於國家利益，該守的秘密還是要守。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：但我是建議美方跟我們這邊要溝通，適度的透明讓國人可以安心。","我最後請教這一題，可能要我們資深的司長來回答。2021年，本席在這邊提問，當時有掌握到，因為關島越來越重要，關島為什麼重要你知道嗎？以前美方軍售一些項目，他們不方便即時交付給我們，他們會暫存在關島，現在沒有了，因為關島北馬里亞納那邊的空軍基地、海軍陸戰隊基地、濱海戰鬥團基地恢復，新加坡的空軍到那裡訓練。另外，北約不管是印度或者是日本的自由民主聯盟，軍事運籌帷幄的核心之一是關島，所以關島提升他們的防衛力量，也加強周邊相關的島，最近到與那國島等等，都有做一些部署，所以臺灣可以說是第一島鏈的核心，第二島鏈的關鍵點就是關島，中間夾的就是西太平洋跟菲律賓海的北側，這一塊其實是戰略要地，這一塊也是臺灣常講的陰影線後段，也因為這些種種的因素，2021年10月14號外交部在這邊答詢時提到，他們派軍事聯絡組，我們現在美團的軍事聯絡團是在D.C.，但有些軍事聯絡員會在美國的Arizona，那裡有空軍受訓就會派駐聯絡官，那時候外交部把關島的外交駐館關掉，好像過兩年又復館，那時候第一任恢復設館的代表好像是陳盈連，是派陳盈連去嘛！後來國防部也提出應該要在那邊設軍事聯絡官或聯絡組，2021年提出來之後，這個案子pending一直留在美國的行政部門，到現在2024年……","主席，我最後把這個問題問完，請問外交部目前最新進度，有還是沒有，還是被否決掉了？"],["林部長佳龍：因為派駐人員都要臺美雙方溝通，那也不便在這裡多說……"],["王委員定宇：不是，這在國務院已經跑3年了耶！"],["林部長佳龍：因為涉及到駐點，還有一些具體的臺美交涉內容……"],["王委員定宇：他們是沒有回復，還是在討價還價？或者是認為不便，現在到底進度到哪裡，能不能瞭解？"],["王司長良玉：現在還有在進行一些溝通。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個案子是活的還是死的？"],["王司長良玉：還在！"],["王委員定宇：那為什麼花3年？"],["王司長良玉：有一些資訊雙方需要溝通得更具體。"],["王委員定宇：也是要讓我們知道，讓我們跟美國國會議員溝通的時候，我們也可以提出這個需求，因為這個是實質需求，我們在那裡要有一個聯絡組，甚至那邊跟日本相關的軍演，媒體都揭露了，我們是有人員去過嘛！所以那邊要有軍事聯絡官是合理的，怎麼會在國務院pending 3年的時間？這部分詳細的進度，我希望你私下可以向我報告。"],["王司長良玉：好，沒問題。"],["王委員定宇：我們也希望若有需要我們國會外交協助的部分，你們也可以提出來，好不好？"],["王司長良玉：是。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","王定宇","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","麥玉珍","賴士葆","黃國昌","洪申翰","林德福","邱志偉","羅智強","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林憶君"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.98846875,"end":16.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.489093750000002,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.36596875,"end":24.297218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.90471875,"end":28.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.74784375,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.588468750000004,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.38971875,"end":60.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.93284375,"end":62.063468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.67096875,"end":65.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.89409375000001,"end":72.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.40346875,"end":74.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.28096875,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.32346875,"end":99.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.40784375000001,"end":104.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.92596875000001,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.33471875000001,"end":108.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.07659375,"end":120.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.73784375000001,"end":140.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.33409375000002,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.15784375,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.28409375,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.71346875,"end":171.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.70034375,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.85596875000002,"end":175.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.00346875000002,"end":176.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.96534375000002,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.70346875,"end":182.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.25971875000002,"end":203.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.30721875,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.91346875000002,"end":248.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.81471875000003,"end":252.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.56534375,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.22346875000002,"end":257.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.52659375,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.34909375,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.61846875000003,"end":268.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.62596875,"end":273.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.18221875,"end":276.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.03409375,"end":286.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.95659375,"end":289.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.75784375,"end":289.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.82534375,"end":289.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.33159375,"end":314.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.20596875,"end":314.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.59784375000004,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.77409375,"end":322.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.91721875,"end":325.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.37659375000004,"end":328.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.00909375000003,"end":337.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.03721875,"end":377.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.30721875,"end":338.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.92971875,"end":390.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.88971875000004,"end":396.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.04909375,"end":398.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.55096875000004,"end":417.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.38346875,"end":421.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.45034375,"end":443.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.29909375000005,"end":445.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.63221875000005,"end":445.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.64471875000004,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.96534375000005,"end":447.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.99034375,"end":452.61846875000003},{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partisan也就在美國的民主共和兩黨對這個意見大概也有共識那外顯的行為就是撥完法案台灣其實是最有高度共識的從得票數跟討論過程包含麥考爾和馬克歐來的發言但我現在講的是你作為一個國家現在是外交部長這兩個有一個一定會成為未來的美國總統我們政府要不要回應"},{"start":174.929,"end":197.543,"text":"怎麼回應本席現在在外交委員會正式問你這問題所謂戰略清晰應該講說戰略越來越清晰其實美國的這個對台或對中的政策他是建立在台灣關係法這個是最基本然後才有所謂三個公報跟六項保證那過去好像變成在所謂的要戰略模糊"},{"start":198.303,"end":220.431,"text":"其實你還是要按照美國的實際上的政策去跟他的台灣關係法去做解釋美國日本其實包含北約他們過去的ambiguity或者strategic ambiguity他代表的大概是大概在2013年以前方便跟台灣跟中國之間的互動保持一個模糊這個模糊裡面有一個核心就是有關"},{"start":221.431,"end":248.674,"text":"是否出兵協助這個事情保持模糊我讓你猜可是那時候是因為中國的兵力遠不及於美國我讀你不敢challenge不敢挑戰那這兩年特別是從川普的任內的最後一年到這兩年那大概在台灣的安全議題上就如同剛才部長講的逐漸走向戰略清晰不管是前官員或先生官員但是我現在這一題我要請教部長的是"},{"start":249.878,"end":268.355,"text":"你認為這兩位的發言可被反映出或者是否代表美國行政部門的態度因為一個是現任三軍統帥一個是承認三軍統帥是不是代表美國對於台灣安全議題的戰略清晰"},{"start":269.667,"end":270.027,"text":"外交部長林佳龍"},{"start":287.724,"end":302.584,"text":"這有沒有代表美國行政部門的態度?跟委員報告,當然我沒有辦法替他們講不過從我們這個角度來看的話我們是在維持現狀而且是在我們的政策延續之下是中共不斷的改變現狀有所出現新常態"},{"start":303.765,"end":325.398,"text":"這個引起了全世界的緊張先從安倍首相他講台灣有事就是日本有事其實他最重要的一句話就是日美安保有事同樣的美國跟這些第一島鏈國家我這一題我要把它結束起來我建議外交部北美是這邊去思考一下這一題要不要回應剛才部長講得很好我們不要替美國政府"},{"start":326.751,"end":352.476,"text":"我認為他是首相戰略信息我們不替外國政府去分析這個但我們政府怎麼去回應美國總統大選當中這個議題因為現在才還有5個月才投票這個議題後面還有大選辯論會越來越多所以應該我們國家的外交部對這個事情要有一個看法穩定的看法對我們台灣國家安全戰略有益的看法這是我今天提這一題提醒外交部的"},{"start":353.056,"end":376.054,"text":"第二題是有關眾議院外委會主席 McCall昨天來我們台灣的外交委員會他大概我印象中是第一個美國的外交委員會的主席進到我們外交委員會的會議室以前Ed Royce是到院長室沒有進到這裡來那後來到議場外面拍照的時候他也提到這兩天台灣的"},{"start":378.416,"end":389.651,"text":"連親人的民主抗議活動他認為這個是呈現出台灣的力量民主的象徵他還說台灣是民主的燈塔他還直接跟習近平講跟Chairman Xi他說"},{"start":391.653,"end":416.201,"text":"這個跟中國的香港也就香港民運跟八九六四天安門不一樣這是一個sign of strength這是一個力量的展現那裡面也提到希望在民主的國家對抗獨裁的威脅美國的民主共和台灣的民進黨國民黨可以一起來合作對抵禦中國的脅迫也提到國防力量等等那我這邊要具體問的是"},{"start":417.521,"end":445.396,"text":"他站在韓國瑜院長身邊提到說有關FMF也就是無償軍援的部分還有軍售的項目的部分他站在那裡代表美國的兩黨表達會儘速交付我請教外交部雖然是軍售項目也許不是你們直接項目但是麥考爾是外委會主席我們有沒有了解他所提的儘速交付是什麼項目儘速是多快"},{"start":446.687,"end":470.243,"text":"你們有沒有掌握這個訊息?所有的這些過去答應的項目當然就是能夠在因為它產線的問題當然現在進速交付就是它的方向是這樣可是實際上當然有些項目會比較快有些項目會比較慢對啦我當然知道有些項目但現在有沒有他已經表達說他要進速交付了是"},{"start":470.883,"end":471.764,"text":"外交部有沒有掌握這個訊息?"},{"start":496.89,"end":515.642,"text":"有一些訊息啦當然我那個應該講說他的目的最主要是說因為台灣的國會要支持啦沒有這個不是美國單方要不要交因為有時候涉及到軍購是國會我們的預算其實他來的是說他是百partisan他希望美國百partisan台灣也百partisan"},{"start":517.123,"end":537.195,"text":"那發駕輸啊什麼那個在跑流程後來因為COVID又因為二無戰爭還有因為一些軍火問題我的意思說如果沒有掌握或不辯講我可以接受我們不見得一定要在那邊討論但我的意思說如果有掌握能夠讓國人了解當然我們越透明是越好啦那所以目前外交部有沒有掌握這個訊息"},{"start":538.476,"end":553.908,"text":"我是有看到一些訊息但是因為這個還是要跟國防部還有我們到底哪些項目是那個外電回來跟實際上到底情況這個還有主管機關我也是要不變講我們就這個基於國家利益該守的命令還是要守"},{"start":554.608,"end":577.776,"text":"但是我是建議美方跟我們這邊要溝通適度的透明讓國人可以安心我最後請教這一題可能要我們資深的司長來回答2021年本席在這邊提問當時有掌握到我們因為關島越來越重要關島為什麼重要你知道嗎以前是美方軍售我們有些項目他不方便及時交付給我們他會暫存在關島"},{"start":579.436,"end":600.874,"text":"現在沒有了啦但是呢關島因為北馬里亞納那邊的空軍基地海軍陸戰隊基地冰海戰鬥軟體都恢復然後呢新加坡的空軍訓練到那裡另外呢你看北約的不管是印度的或者是日本的這些自由民主聯盟的軍事運籌與維握的核心之一"},{"start":601.835,"end":621.375,"text":"是關島所以關島也提升他們的防衛力量然後也加強周邊的他們相關的島最近到與那國等等都有做一些部署所以關島可以說是第一島鏈第一島鏈的核心其實是台灣到第二島鏈的關鍵點大概就是關島中間夾的就是西太平洋跟"},{"start":622.056,"end":622.436,"text":"外交部部長"},{"start":642.923,"end":643.603,"text":"派軍事聯絡組"},{"start":659.969,"end":673.364,"text":"我們外交部從關起來把關島的住管關掉好像過兩年吧又副管那時候第一任第一任恢復社管的代表好像是陳一年是派陳一年去嘛後來"},{"start":674.775,"end":675.796,"text":"因為這個派駐的人員都要是臺美雙方溝通"},{"start":702.264,"end":702.284,"text":"國務院議員"},{"start":718.878,"end":740.749,"text":"現在還有在進行一些溝通所以這個案子是活的還是死的還在還在那為什麼花三年有一些資訊雙方需要溝通的根據題我們跟美國國會議員溝通的時候我們可以提出這個需要因為這個是實質需求我們要有一個聯絡組在那裡甚至於那邊的跟日本的相關軍演媒體都揭露了我們有人員去過嘛"},{"start":741.429,"end":741.61,"text":"國衛外交協助部長"}]}},{"id":"153335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153335","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aebaa12f6933aee260ec4869c0f3e297fc60beba37a180c9b1cddc5543f29fdbc7c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:17:57 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稍微我們請那個次長麻煩徐次長"},{"start":22.106,"end":28.209,"text":"市長早市長我今天看到一則媒體的報導我很訝異這個報導是講說這個屏東的有關周點輪的這個涉及砸500萬替郭台銘買連署的這一個審判庭的開庭他們當場勘驗那個當時的一個那個徵訊影像"},{"start":51.42,"end":51.521,"text":"據對照當時的偵訊筆錄發覺檢方"},{"start":57.575,"end":81.853,"text":"對周品全說那個周品全是那時候的潮州鎮的鎮長就是潮州鎮鎮長那麼去勘驗他的一個徵訊影像那檢方對周品全說以大局為重給我一點處理時間查證涉及政治案件不是我一個人決定上面都同意我們在放人"},{"start":83.215,"end":110.645,"text":"這樣的一個檢察官的一個表態檢察官在偵訊的時候跟被告說這樣的話市長所以這樣子這段你有看清楚了那你覺得檢察官會做這樣的一個表態跟被告來表態說這個案子是他一個人不可以決定要上面同意他才可以放人"},{"start":111.744,"end":135.898,"text":"所以這是不是政治力介入我們的司法報告委員 我們檢察官一定是按照刑事訴訟法在執行他的職務這一個內容到底是什麼樣的內容我們只是看到報紙的報告我想而且這個案子都已經是法院的法官在審理中已經進入審判庭所以才會去再勘驗這個我知道"},{"start":138.86,"end":158.925,"text":"我們的立場對於這種具體個案我們是不方便評論當然是講個案你不方便評論只是現在我們看到的證據一分證據說一分話現在你的檢察官竟然在開偵查庭的時候說出這樣子說這個是政治案件"},{"start":160.592,"end":161.132,"text":"發言委員．林思銘"},{"start":186.445,"end":199.864,"text":"我們以後一定會以法官的判決書內容為主,如果有的話我們一定會去了解這一屆的國會新跡象新的名義,我們真的要期許法務部"},{"start":201.55,"end":214.021,"text":"有關於這種不管是在偵查任何的案件所有的案件我真的要期許你們政治力不要介入尤其不要半藍不半綠這個讓人家感覺起來你們就是針對我們"},{"start":219.065,"end":236.977,"text":"國民黨的所有的政治人物去偵辦我們一定是公正的我們是行政中立你今天在這邊說我們希望說未來我們可以看到說我們的法務體系真的不再有政治力的介入回到我們今天的主題"},{"start":238.462,"end":263.772,"text":"那目前我們市所矯正學校端平、城鎮、立志、名陽均為完全中學的概念那高中是以技職教育為主我看到您的報告講說在學生入校後一個月內會個案評估報告分析少年的背景以及處遇需求以提供適當的輔導處遇那就是說市長我們少年的犯罪太陽非常的多啊"},{"start":265.003,"end":292.809,"text":"是否每一個每一種犯罪形態你要提供適合的輔導嘛是比如說我們現在看到就是說現在那個少年詐欺的車手還非常多嘛巨增嘛對所以對於像這種類型的這種不管是少年詐欺啦或者是我們少年的這種這個性剝削的啊這種相關的這種少年的一個犯罪的這些這個新少年犯罪者啊要如何的來輔導"},{"start":294.289,"end":319.804,"text":"你們是不是有做這個適性的一個分類的一個輔導?有有,我們各種根據他的那個犯罪的一個類型都會加以輔導像詐欺好了,詐欺會牽扯到他的習性、他的價值觀、他的家庭環境等等那老師就會針對這個部分給他做一個完整的介紹說明以輔導他是,所以"},{"start":320.799,"end":345.137,"text":"我想這個在整個輔導過程中除了詐欺以外還有很多很多類型完全都不一樣每一個人的因為他的一個或者是因為他精神狀態的問題或者是他的心理情緒的問題而犯各類型的犯罪所以我們在輔導的過程中我看你的報告是有三級輔導處遇但是"},{"start":350.359,"end":375.274,"text":"你對於這些輔導就是說真正的輔導的過程是不是真的能夠讓這些人不再犯罪是不是真的能夠達到這個成效這是我很關心的我現在問你一個問題就是說現在我們從少年就是這些輔導員出來之後復歸社會之後他的再犯率多少你知不知道有沒有做過統計"},{"start":376.215,"end":402.591,"text":"報告委員因為這些離開學校的學生他如果再犯如果他沒有進就是我們的學校他只是在少年法庭這邊呢就譬如說已經就請回了他家長帶回去類似像這樣的處理方式他沒有進學校我們學校沒有辦法拿到我現在是說進學校進學校之後他回復社會之後有沒有做過統計請那個書長"},{"start":408.006,"end":432.277,"text":"報告委員,我們原則上對於學生進入在學校再犯率的統計,有沒有做統計?沒有詳細的這個數據沒有詳細的數據喔?對,但是我們主要是好,這樣啦,因為我看到你們的目前的機制是出校後將持續追蹤一年嘛是以利於穩固學生復歸社區家庭的狀況嘛"},{"start":434.215,"end":452.309,"text":"所以你要去追蹤嗎?去追蹤你不用做統計喔?報告委員 這個部分是少角校的輔導教師或是社工師都會跟縣市政府的社工師做後追問我想現在大數據的時代啦我還是希望你們我建議啦未來這個要做你才會知道說這些"},{"start":453.73,"end":471.452,"text":"這些孩子經過我們這個少年輔導學校他出去之後有沒有追蹤之後有沒有繼續犯罪這個才能夠對於你未來你這個學校要如何的去改善增進你的這個教育的課程"},{"start":473.257,"end":496.69,"text":"不是說你現在訂了三級制度,但是你都沒有去考量說出去之後還會不會再犯?報告委員,後綴的主要目的是要協助他解決他的生活問題至於說他有沒有再犯罪,這個部分並不是最主要的目的我是說可以作為,你有這個大數據的分析之後,可以作為以後你們學校在安排課程"},{"start":497.771,"end":517.503,"text":"看是不是要加強輔導 怎麼樣來深化輔導要加強哪一種 哪一類型的教育 讓他不要再犯啊那這個問題是不是可以讓我們學校的一個教育的一個重點嗎 讓他進到這個我們的少年輔導這個學校 矯正學校來這個念書他的目的不是也要讓他能夠回歸正常嗎"},{"start":519.845,"end":535.723,"text":"所以這個統計我希望你一定要去做,好不好,這一定要去做,是,其實為什麼我會這樣問你,我跟你講一個數據,就是成人中學他在110年的資料,統計資料,他說安置一年的再犯率是55.35%,"},{"start":538.266,"end":553.983,"text":"近兩層的出銷生會再次被收押出銷時間越長再犯刑事案件的犯罪率攀升安置兩年的再犯率為66.39%安置三年的更高打80%"},{"start":555.845,"end":582.628,"text":"而且36.58%被再次收押所以我要請問你為什麼再犯率會這麼高?這個資料我們是有相關的統計安置大概是不到1%我們最主要是轉嫌復學跟就業最多安置其實很少我是不曉得這個數據是從哪邊來的你不知道我在告訴你答案我知道我會再告訴你"},{"start":583.863,"end":595.794,"text":"所以我要請教的說目前是不是我們的追蹤轉弦機制的規範不夠健全因為你剛才講追蹤才一年嘛後追一年對啊你才後追一年嘛是不是這個時間不夠一年夠嗎"},{"start":608.862,"end":629.649,"text":"這部分我是建議說我們可能要在這個法規面或者法制面你要去研議是不是要延長一看現行制度就不夠嘛你不要跟我講說依照現行的法規我當然依照現行法規這樣規定啊但是看起來就是不夠嘛不夠完備嘛"},{"start":631.707,"end":631.727,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"}]}},{"id":"153334","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153334","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba98ff1c133147ccebea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cd4a7ded5c40f3c2c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:19:53 - 10:27:17","影片長度":"00:07:24","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":444,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:27:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:19:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時20分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家早安。有請次長。"],["主席：好，請呂次長。"],["張委員智倫：次長好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：今天本席要討論有關於老人健保費的問題，在請教這個問題之前，我想要先顧一下全民的健康。請問一下，現在全臺灣十大癌症排名前三名的癌症是哪三個？你清楚嗎？"],["呂次長建德：第一名應該是肺癌。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝神救援。肺癌過去以來在癌症排名前三名裡面，可是最近幾年一直排在全臺灣癌症的第一名，想請問一下，肺癌發生的原因是什麼？高發的原因是什麼？您知道嗎？"],["呂次長建德：肺癌主要跟整個空氣還有抽菸這些問題……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯。"],["呂次長建德：還有家庭主婦……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝次長，沒錯，其實次長非常關心，雖然一開始沒有回答出來。肺癌現在已經榮升為國人得到癌症的第一名，新聞報導指出，除了抽菸以外，真正主要的原因就是空氣污染，就是臺灣錯誤的能源政策。我再請教一下，次長有沒有統計，現在全臺各縣市尤其六都，哪一個縣市肺癌發生的比例增加？有沒有人可以回答這個問題？"],["呂次長建德：抱歉，是不是容我們再確認一下，可以嗎？不好意思。"],["張委員智倫：好，我這邊有統計六都的部分，就我得到的資料，臺中真的成長非常多，基本上，就是空污的問題、錯誤能源政策的問題。我想要提出，衛福部是不是應該跟環境部討論，讓人民有知的權利？現在空氣污染的警示燈號是否有跟國際上PM2.5排放達到一致的標準？臺灣的燈號顯示的比例或者它的程度是不是太寬鬆？尤其大家都知道臺灣都是太陽能、綠能，這是過去蔡英文政府、現在新政府主推的，造成臺灣的火力發電超過八成，尤其晚上的時候，太陽能發電歸零，火力發電火力全開，很多人下班回來晚上去運動，所以我一定要讓人民有知的權利。如果晚上空氣污染是嚴重的，人民還去外面運動的話，我認為人民需要有知的權利，知道今天的空氣污染是否已經達到危害的程度，以免造成全臺人民身體健康的負擔。請問次長，你同意嗎？"],["呂次長建德：這個idea真的非常好，應該有一些signal、預警措施，讓民眾廣為周知。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝次長從善如流，我也拜託你們跨部門要溝通，應該讓人民有知的權利。如果今天的空氣品質是差的，我出門至少戴一個口罩，而不是讓全民都好像活在不知道身邊就有空污的情況，導致現在肺癌已經成為全臺灣癌症排名的第一名。我跟次長報告，也拜託環境部，大家一起共同努力，讓人民有知的權利。","第二個要請教次長，邱泰源現在接任衛福部部長，他有出一個健康白皮書，我們現在講65歲以上老人的健保希望通通免納健保費，由政府補助，現在財源上有問題，所以他特別提到調高政府投資保費支出，從36%到38%。他在裡面特別提出來，政府投資保費支出不能低於每年健保總額的36%，顧名思義要提高到38%也不用修改健保法，這樣就可以增加幾百億。而且他認為健保總額要用在醫療，過去政府推什麼政策要花錢，編總預算很麻煩，因此常常便宜行事，也就是不應該從總額付出的錢也放在裡面，尤其他說之前健保把一些資料上傳到雲端的支出也放在總額裡面。次長同不同意部長講的，你們應該趕快爭取調高政府投資保費支出，從36%調到38%，這樣就有多的預算可以支持我們黨團的政策？"],["呂次長建德：我想邱部長目前這個方向確實非常好，把相關的餅做大，問題是我必須要提醒，按照目前這個版本，恐怕……因為我們現在估算出來，如果20%的話大概是359億，我們當然也知道健保目前整個支出增加，如果因為這一個政策又通過，收入減少，事實上，對健保的永續可能也不利，健保如果有財務上的問題、運作上的問題，對長輩可能也不見得是好事，所以我們現在提醒大院，是不是能夠審慎考慮這個政策？謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：好，再次拜託次長。最後一點我要跟次長請教，臺灣未來是高齡化社會，日照、長照一定要多往前推，現在全臺灣的長照員嚴重不足，請問衛福部有沒有什麼對應的機制？我記得衛福部未來日照的目標是什麼，過去有聽到你們想要做一里一日照。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["張委員智倫：有沒有這樣的策略？你們如何去做？臺灣現在日照員嚴重不足，你們要怎麼做，能不能簡答？"],["呂次長建德：我們現在是類似日本的措施及方法，就是一學區一日照，整個交通範圍這一個……長照司也全力推動整個日照中心的布建計畫。是不是容我們會後將相關資料提供給委員參考？"],["張委員智倫：好，非常感謝次長，這是我非常關心的，我的政策當時也是想要一里一日照，希望大家一起努力，中央、地方一條心。"],["呂次長建德：是一學區。"],["張委員智倫：好，現在改成一學區。"],["呂次長建德：國中的學區。"],["張委員智倫：一國中學區一日照。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["張委員智倫：大家一起共同努力。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝次長。"],["呂次長建德：OK，感謝委員指導。"],["主席：一學區一日照就是現在正在做的，並沒有擴大。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["主席：次長要講清楚，這沒有擴大，現行就是一學區一日照。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["張委員智倫：我們講一里，他要一學區。"],["主席：對，一學區是以國中……"],["呂次長建德：對，是國中的學區。"],["主席：所以並沒有擴大。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["主席：這個要澄清。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.164093750000003,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.31096875,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.31846875,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.70971875,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.70346875,"end":44.682218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.580968750000004,"end":45.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.97284375,"end":48.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.18346875,"end":52.900343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.432218750000004,"end":54.570968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.431593750000005,"end":64.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.42596875000001,"end":64.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.86471875000001,"end":71.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.66534375,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.74409375,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.34721875000001,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.59596875000001,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.97659375,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.49034375000001,"end":111.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPE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﹏尤其在晚上的時候﹏這個﹏太陽能發電是歸零啊﹏火力發電,火力全開﹏那很多人在晚上的時候會去運動,下班回來晚上去運動﹏所以我這邊一定要讓我人民有知的權利啊﹏如果晚上空氣污染是嚴重的﹏那人民還如果還去﹏外面運動的話﹏我認為人民需要有知的權利,就知道說今天的﹏"},{"start":195.326,"end":209.359,"text":"﹑空氣污染品質是否已經達到危害的程度﹑以免造成我們全臺人民的身體健康的負擔﹑請問市長你同意嗎?包委員我覺得這個idea真的非常好。就是說應該要有一些signal的一些預警措施讓民眾來廣為周知。"},{"start":211.781,"end":239.688,"text":"好,謝謝次長仇善如流。其實這邊我也拜託這個跨部門大家要溝通。應該讓人民有知的權利。就是說如果今天的空氣品質是差的,我出門我至少戴一個口罩,而不是讓全民都好像活在這個不知道身邊就有空污的情況下,導致現在肺癌已經成為全台灣空污排名的第一名。所以這邊跟次長報告,我也拜託環境部這邊大家一起共同來努力讓人民有知的權利。第二個,要跟請教次長的是,"},{"start":240.488,"end":268.003,"text":"這個邱泰元現在接任我們的衛福部的部長他有出一個這個健康白皮書啊他裡面有特別提到吼就是我們現在在講的老人健保的這個65歲以上需要東東免拉健保費政府補助嘛現在財源上有問題所以他特別有提到說調高政府這個投資保費支出從36%到38%他裡面特別有提出來說"},{"start":269.389,"end":283.815,"text":" ﹏其實政府投資支出不能低於每年健保總額的36%﹏顧名思義要提到38%﹏也不用修改健保法﹏這樣就可以增加幾百億﹏而且他特別提到說﹏過去政府推的什麼政策要花錢﹏"},{"start":284.975,"end":307.35,"text":" ﹏而且他認為健保總額要用在醫療﹏過去政府推了什麼政策要花錢﹏編總預算很麻煩﹏因此常常便宜行事﹏就是沒有應該總額付出的錢也放在裡面﹏尤其他說之前好像有這個這個健保﹏他把一些資料上傳到雲端這些的支出也放在總額裡面﹏所以這個次長你同不同意部長講的﹏你們應該趕快去爭取啊﹏"},{"start":307.93,"end":328.501,"text":"提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提高政府投資支出從36%提"},{"start":333.439,"end":333.459,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":352.222,"end":352.242,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":372.367,"end":386.614,"text":"市長,最後一點我要跟市長請教,就是我覺得台灣未來就是高齡化社會,依照長照要多推,就是往前推。那現在全台灣的這個長照員嚴重不足,覺得衛福部這邊有沒有什麼對應的機制?"},{"start":388.195,"end":401.531,"text":"我記得就衛福部你們對未來日照的這個目標是什麼我過去有聽到你們有想要做一禮一日照有沒有這樣的策略那你們如何去做那未來台灣現在嚴重的日照源不足你們要怎麼去做什麼簡單"},{"start":403.792,"end":430.493,"text":"我們現在是以那個就是類似日本的這個措施的那個方法就是說是一學期一學區一日照就是說你的整個整個這個交通範圍的這一個那我們也長照市這邊也全力在推動這一個整個這個日照中心的這個部件計畫我們是不是容我們惠後我們再將官資料提供給委員非常感謝次長因為這是我非常關心我的政策其實當時也是想要一里一日照那希望大家一起來努力中央地方一條心一學區"},{"start":431.053,"end":437.701,"text":"一學區,一學區,現在改成一學區一國中學區一日照。大家一起共同來努力。謝謝,謝謝市長。"}]}},{"id":"153333","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba13e8245af5381b6e9542594461f30c0bbeba37a180c9b1cd11952e407ee502b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:19:19 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Kacaw委員：立法院職權行使法三讀通過，不是台積電的人隨便就可以請來，要調查資料就請他提供資料，不是啊！這次修正的第四十五條，「立法院為有效行使憲法所賦予之職權」，第一句話，憲法所賦予之職權。然後經過立法院院會決議，設調查委員會，或者是委員會的決議，設專案小組。然後調查委員會、調查專案小組得要求有關機關就特定案件事項提供參考資料，要求有關人員出席。它有一定的程序、一定的條件，是要立法院有關的職權，而且是要憲法賦予的職權，不是隨便就可以啊！一定是有官商勾結的可能性才會嘛！台積電沒有啊！剛才有委員舉的那些案例，不會有啊！就沒有啊！所以立法院行使調查權，不得逾越調查目的、事項與範圍，還要尊重相關的這些規定，所以它都有一些非常明確的範圍，而且主委，這些條文不是國民黨、民眾黨所創的，早期顧立雄國防部部長也提過，現在的外交部部長林佳龍也提過，我知道主委一定沒有時間看這個，所以不要輕易地回應，我們回去再好好看。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我先談這個，「調查委員會或調查專案小組為行使調查權，得要求政府機關、部隊、法人……」，這個條文是尤美女委員、林佳龍委員過去所提的條文，所以這個部分都有一個非常嚴謹的規範，不會隨便侵犯到人民的權利，如果侵犯到人民的權利，他也可以提出另外一個相關的途徑，所以這個都有。","另外，剛才賴瑞隆委員特別提到虛偽陳述，在我們的中華民國刑法裡面就有什麼叫虛偽陳述，公務人員本來就不能虛偽陳述，我相信我們的公務人員都不會，我當了30年的公務員，來到立法院也很多年，我也第四屆了，我們的公務員百分之九十九，甚至百分之一百都不會虛偽陳述，只有極少數的政務官，也很少啦！所以會碰到這種事情也真的很少。然後促進轉型正義條例也有，對機關、團體啊！像救國團，對不對？一樣可以啊！所以都有，也不能虛偽陳述，這是對人民，都有啊！促進轉型正義條例也有，我們當初也沒有說怎麼樣啊！所以這個部分不要擴大，所以還不是很熟悉條文的時候，就說我回去再好好看就好了，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我們還是回到原點。今天國發會的報告裡面提到，「惟受到美中競爭等地緣政治紛擾影響」，我們就是要去避免，尤其是我們的總統，我們是很少有機會，幾乎沒有機會碰到總統，你這個國發會主委有機會碰到總統，就要告訴他，臺灣要避免戰爭，要和平。所以一個就職典禮的演說也是很重要的，不只是美中，我們不要陷入美中競爭的地緣政治，這個是最重要的。然後國發會的報告裡面也提到，落實總統「人民作主、開放政府」的政見，這裡面你提到原住民族數位不平等，確實，原住民族數位不平等，所以要去協調NCC、協調數發部，未來原住民在進行相關的中長程計畫的時候，也是請給予支持。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為時間的關係，我就把一些跟原住民比較有關係的重點點出來，「完成所做國家檔案館的建設」，因為我過去在臺灣省政府服務過很多機關，從法規會、社會處、省府的秘書處到原住民行政的部門，我到中央原民會服務也將近10年，因為原住民專責的行政單位後來才成立，而過去的檔案很多在民政廳，很多在其他的廳處，所以省政府的這些檔案，我曾經去你們的檔案局，你們現在是檔案局嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我曾經去你們現在的檔案局，也就是新莊檔案局調資料，有的調得到，有的調不到。這是非常珍貴的檔案資料，所以我要請主委，尤其是局長，把這些與原住民族相關的重要檔案好好整理，有個專檔，有一個專檔，這樣查的話會比較比較方便，而不是現在這樣。既然要成立，不是只有一個大樓啦，更重要的是裡面的資料！","還有哪裡？省議會，過去的政治中心。尤其原住民的資料很多都在省議會裡面。現在沒有省諮議會了，但法律上還有，過去省諮議會還在的時候曾經整理過，可能還沒有完成，所以需要繼續處理，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：另外，有關花東基金綜合發展實施方案，花東地區發展條例在民國100年由立法院三讀通過，自民國101年開始有花東基金。101年到現在已經十幾年了，卻還是一樣四年一期40億。如果按照物價指數及各方面來看，我認為應該調整、應該調高，而且應該按照現在的規定做滾動檢討，將額度調高。所以這部分也請滾動檢討相關的措施，因為確實有需要，畢竟10年前就是40億，現在已經第四期了，既然是第四期，就應該要再做調整，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，我們會回去研究。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請張嘉郡委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":402,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-14","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","鄭天財Sra 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這個條文是由梅尼委員、林佳龍委員過去的條文"},{"start":177.612,"end":196.466,"text":"所以這個部分他都有一個非常嚴謹的不會隨便侵犯到人民的權利如果侵犯到人民的權利他也可以提出相關的另外一個相關的途徑所以這個都有另外就是"},{"start":197.711,"end":215.492,"text":"特別提到剛才賴委員提到稀微陳述稀微陳述在我們的中華民國刑法裡面就有什麼叫稀微陳述公務員本來就不能稀微陳述我相信我們的公務員都不會我是30年的公務員"},{"start":217.6,"end":241.244,"text":"來到立法院也很多為第4屆了我們的公務員99%甚至100%都不會稀微陳述只有極少數的政務官也很少啦所以會碰到這種事情也真的很少然後促進轉型正義條例也有啊對機關團體啊對像那個救國團啊"},{"start":246.601,"end":247.721,"text":"今天國發會的報告裡面提到"},{"start":275.282,"end":298.562,"text":"受到美中競爭等地緣政治紛擾的影響我們就是要去避免尤其是我們的總統你沒有機會我們是很少有機會幾乎沒有機會碰到總統你這個國會主委有機會碰到總統就要告訴他要避免"},{"start":300.379,"end":326.695,"text":"臺灣要避免戰爭要和平所以一個就職典禮的演說也是很重要的所以這不只是美中我們不要陷入這個美中競爭的地緣政治這個是最重要是我們自己要很重要的然後國會的報告裡面若使總統人民做主開放政府的政見所以這個部分這裡面你提到原住民主數不平等確實"},{"start":328.345,"end":346.891,"text":"原住民組數位不平等需要去協調NCC協調國書發部未來原住民有關相關的這些中長城計畫的時候也是請給予支持這裡面提到因為時間的關係我就擺一些重點跟原住民比較有關係的"},{"start":348.391,"end":372.566,"text":"完成所作國家檔案館的建設因為我過去從台灣省政府服務過在台灣省政府服務過很多的機關法規會、社會處、省府的秘書處到原住民行政的部門我也常常我到中央人民會服務也將近10年"},{"start":374.134,"end":398.646,"text":"現在因為過去的檔案 原住民專責的行政單位後來才成立 很多在民政廳 那很多在其他的廳處 所以省政府的這些檔案 我曾經去你們的檔案 你們現在檔案擠嘛 我去了這個新莊檔案擠去調資料 有的調得到 有的調不到"},{"start":399.771,"end":416.575,"text":"所以這個部分這是一個非常珍貴的一個檔案資料所以我要請這個主委尤其是局長把原住民主的相關的這些重要的檔案能夠把它好好地整理有一個專檔有一個專檔"},{"start":419.266,"end":447.486,"text":"而不是這樣找的會比較方便所以這個部分也請這個既然要成立就把它好好的不是只有一個大樓啦更重要的是裡面的資料還有哪裡呢?省議會過去政治的中心尤其是原住民的部分是在很多都在省議會的資料裡面過去省支議會還在的時候現在沒有省支議會了法律上還有啦"},{"start":448.747,"end":470.183,"text":"省執議會當初有曾經整理過﹖所以可能還沒有完成﹖所以繼續的來處理﹖可以嗎﹖可以。這裡面我剛講過了另外就是說這個綜合發展就是花東基金的花東基金這個綜合發展實施方案"},{"start":471.786,"end":498.107,"text":"花東第7發展條例是民國100年立法院三度通過民國101年開始有花東基金101年到現在已經十幾年了然後還是現在都還是一樣4年一起4年一起還是40億所以這個如果按照物價指數各方面應該調整應該調高"},{"start":501.621,"end":513.746,"text":"而且是可以按照現在的規定就可以滾動檢討但是這個額度應該要做調高所以這個部分也請這個滾動檢討相關的這些確實是有需要因為這個10年前就是40億"},{"start":524.827,"end":524.847,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba9d3b2d3c9d18ba94ea2e07370b40154bbeba37a180c9b1cdd9cc7248204e3c0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:12:04 - 10:19:49","影片長度":"00:07:45","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n二、委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第七案，如經復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":465,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-19"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:19:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:12:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時12分）謝謝主席，我們先請衛福部呂次長。次長，先恭喜喔！擔任衛福部的政務次長。今天本席要討論的是老人福利法第二十二條的部分，其實如同剛剛這麼多人的討論，如果單純要來談所謂的青壯世代跟老年人負擔的問題，跟這個世代之間公平的問題的話，如果要把這個話題導到這邊來，我覺得乾脆就廢除老人福利法，因為現行的老人福利法跟各項社會福利制度，每一項基本上都是使用人民的納稅錢，如果要去談這個問題的話，剛剛提到年輕人低薪、房價過高、少子化、未來負擔等等，這個是代表當代政府的無能，但是不能把這個責任苛責、歸咎於我們要去負擔65歲以上長輩的社會福利，這是本席剛剛聽下來先提出來的一個感想。","我要先提為什麼今天會提到第二十二條的修正，老人福利法的第一條提到，為維護老人尊嚴與健康，延緩老人失能，安定老人生活，保障老人權益，增進老人福利，所以訂定了老人福利法。全民健康保險法裡面也提到，為了增進全體國民健康，所以辦理全民健康保險，合併起來看，其實全民健康保險在65歲以上老人的部分，在本席的認知裡面，它應該是整個國家的重大政策才對，次長，你對於這樣的看法覺得怎麼樣？"],["呂次長建德：我非常佩服委員的看法，我也曾經拜讀委員的論文，你的論文主要是做有關中國大陸的城鄉統籌還有醫改，寫得非常非常好。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：我想確實誠如委員所說的，這個部分應該是有關社會保險、社會福利的區分，我想這是非常重要的。社會保險我想還是要界定，就是目前老人福利法有關稅率20%的規定，基本上還是社會保險，針對社會保險，委員在您的論文大作裡面其實也有提到，基本上確實還是要風險分擔，而且是要以量能來負擔，我想這個部分，基本的原則還是要確立。"],["黃委員健豪：我認同這個風險的分擔，這個風險基本上在老人福利法裡面，甚至全民健康保險法，我想它就是為了要去分擔或負擔65歲以上的部分，我們未來如果真的走向高齡化的社會，對於高齡化的國民，我們到底有沒有要用這個政策去照顧他們？當然這是選擇的問題。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["黃委員健豪：我提第二十二條，我當然是選擇我們應該去照顧，那為何會有這個選擇？因為在現行的第二十二條條文裡面，全民健康保險費無力負擔的部分，明定丟給了直轄市、縣（市）主管機關，但是我們再回去看老人福利法的第一條跟全民健康保險法的第一條，它是為了增進全體國民健康，既然是為了增進全體國民健康，理論上它應該是由中央直接來處理，而不是讓各地方政府去處理，因為讓各地方政府去處理就會發生現在的問題，就是各縣市的財政是不一樣的，所以好的地方政府、有錢的地方政府，它的確可以提供比較多補助，但沒有錢的地方政府，它就等於沒有補助，所以這件事情就等於違背了老人福利法，以及全民健康保險法一開始立法的宗旨，這是本席的見解，所以這就是我為什麼要提這一條。","再來，次長，幾個名詞──老人共餐、長青學苑、老人乘車補助、老人裝置活動假牙補助、長期照顧服務、增置老人送餐中心，這些名詞有沒有很熟悉？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我個人非常熟悉。"],["黃委員健豪：是，次長，我為什麼提這個？因為這是您過去在臺中市的德政。"],["呂次長建德：不敢、不敢。"],["黃委員健豪：這個德政怎麼來的？當初是因為臺中市沒有老人健保補助，所以把這個預算挪出來做這件事情，我們今天提這個就是希望中央如果能夠來負擔全民健康保險65歲以上的部分，至於排富條款怎麼定，大家可以再來細究，我是訂20%，但多少才符合公平正義，這個可以再來細究、討論，但是如果中央能夠承擔這一塊的預算、這一塊的福利制度，各地方政府去執行剛剛提到的這幾項地方上的福利政策的時候，它就有更多的餘裕跟經費去執行我們剛剛提到的事情，我想中央、地方大家一起合作，但是資源跟錢怎麼分配也很重要。","剛剛提到像全民健康保險，這個是全體國民都應該享有的一個社會福利或者是社會保險制度，由衛福部來補助或補貼，地方政府就有餘裕的去處理剛剛提到的比如說老人送餐也好，敬老愛心卡也好，讓地方政府能夠以多餘的財政去執行這些事情，我不知道次長對這樣的想法怎麼看待？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，其實最重要的，我還是必須要說，就是委員在您的大作裡面一再提到的，它是屬於社會保險，社會保險裡面當然還是要以量能來貢獻，我想這個是最重要的一個原則。至於委員剛剛說各地方的部分，其實我覺得這確實是非常非常好的idea，可是問題是，您剛剛所說的其實就是現金跟實物給付，那實物給付的部分，我們中央這邊也會持續推動這些相關的政策，其實最重要的還是長照2.0到3.0，再加上combine剛剛委員所說的這些相關的服務，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我剛剛提到的這些服務，執行面就是地方政府在執行，所以如果它能夠把手空出來去執行這些業務的話，我想對地方政府在執行不管長照2.0、3.0也好……直接的執行面既然在地方政府，那這個全民健保的部分讓中央統籌來處理，我想這件事情回到地方在執行的時候，它才有餘裕嘛，不然地方政府的財政就是有限啊，而且直轄市的狀況比較好，當有些地方甚至離島地區的財政沒這麼好的時候，反而會影響到我們要推動所謂長照2.0或3.0的地方政府量能。我的時間已經不夠了，但是我想把我的這個觀點跟次長分享，當然我也希望次長能夠聽進去，因為過去你在臺中市推動的這些德政，也是源自於當初沒有這筆支出。"],["呂次長建德：不敢、不敢。"],["黃委員健豪：對地方政府來講，它多了一筆龐大的社會福利，長照、老人福利等等的經費，它能夠來執行這些事情，我想未來也會遇到這個問題，當然如果衛福部要把所有的責任擔在身上，我也沒有意見，我是樂觀其成，但是我今天提到的是，既然執行面是在地方政府，如果在這個執行面上是由地方政府來承擔的話，那在財務面上，如果能夠讓中央、讓衛福部能夠幫地方政府減輕這個財政負擔，我想對於未來整體的老人福利政策，在執行面上才會比較有餘裕，謝謝次長。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員，謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝黃健豪委員。","接下來請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-19","speakers":["王育敏","許宇甄","張嘉郡","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","黃健豪","張智倫","李彥秀","林淑芬","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","劉建國","徐欣瑩","楊曜","陳菁徽","盧縣一","涂權吉","蘇清泉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案；二、委員馬文\n君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；三、委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福\n利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；四、國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案；五、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；六、委員王育\n敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案；七、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利\n法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.77659375,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.13221875,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.87034375,"end":31.941593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.97534375,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.66721875,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.73971875000001,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.22471875000001,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.02596875,"end":121.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.91909375,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.03034375000001,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.04659375,"end":175.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.88534375,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.77909375000002,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.82971875,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.86346875,"end":193.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.96471875,"end":181.0659687500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﹖排富條款怎麽定﹖大家可以再細究﹖我是定20%﹖但多少才符合公平正義﹖這個來細究﹖所以再來討論﹖但是如果中央能夠把這一塊的預算﹖這一塊的福利制度﹖把它由中央來承擔﹖各地方政府去執行剛剛提到的這幾項﹖地方上的福利政策的時候﹖它就有更多的餘裕﹖"},{"start":293.152,"end":293.793,"text":"則不予審查：黃健豪"},{"start":312.149,"end":325.857,"text":" ﹏那多餘的地方政府有餘裕的讓他去處理,剛提到說老人送餐也好,進老家信卡也好,這些地方政府去執行這些多餘的財政,他能夠去執行這些事情。我不知道次長對這樣的想法怎麼看待。"},{"start":326.493,"end":356.493,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":356.733,"end":381.975,"text":" ﹏那十五幾戶的部分我還是認為就是說﹏可能還是是不是還是我們中央這邊也會來持續推動這些相關的政策﹏其實最重要還是長照2.0到3.0﹏那麼再加上combine剛剛委員剛剛所說的這些相關的服務﹏因為我剛剛提到這些服務執行面就地方政府在執行﹏所以如果他能夠把手空出來去執行這些業務的話﹏我想對地方政府在執行不管長照2.0、3.0也好﹏"},{"start":383.616,"end":384.017,"text":"委員黃健豪"},{"start":406.918,"end":407.038,"text":" ﹖黃健豪﹖"},{"start":425.88,"end":443.563,"text":"長照、老人福利等等的這個經費,他能夠去執行這些事情。我想未來也會遇到這個問題。如果你衛福部要把所有的責任擔在身上,我也沒有意見,我是樂觀其成。但是我今天提到說,既然執行面是在地方政府裡面,如果在這個執行面上是由地方政府來承擔的話,"},{"start":444.284,"end":460.912,"text":" ﹏那在財務面上﹏如果能夠讓中央﹏讓衛福部能夠幫他地方這麼減﹏減輕這個財政負擔﹏我想對於未來的這個﹏整體的這個老人﹏這個衛生﹏老人的這個福利政策在執行面上才會比較﹏比較有餘裕﹏好,謝謝市長。"}]}},{"id":"153330","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153330","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/bbbc431469b8aeba630aabfc464c982a4869c0f3e297fc60beba37a180c9b1cd3b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:01:40 - 10:17:53","影片長度":"00:16:13","會議時間":"2024-05-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-30","duration":973,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-28"},"end_time":"2024-05-30T10:17:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-30T10:01:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":429,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時1分）謝謝召委。有請我們司法院吳秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法務部部長請假？"],["主席：他到11點才會來。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長、次長、各位列席官員，大家早！我先給兩位看兩張圖表，法務部司法官學院執行的中華民國 111年犯罪狀況分析，請看這兩張表，近10年少年犯罪嫌疑人數，最多為102年12,038人，最少為107年8,893人，近3年自109年10,226人逐年減少至111年為9,554人，也就是說，看起來其實是持平啦！請問司法院，看起來我國近年少年的觸法人數到底是上升還是下降？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，因為少子化，其實整體的人數是在下降，但是有一部分的業務、案件類型其實一直在成長當中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！你看這是法務部的，你看司法院的，司法院的官網是這樣講，近10年來，少年（12歲以上未滿18歲）調查事件呈現整個件數下滑，這個看起來很明顯跟法務部的報告就有落差，我要請教司法院秘書長，你們可不可以解釋一下，你們網站上的調查事件的定義是怎麼樣？我國少年觸法情況，到底你們認為是上升還是下降？你們這個差距很大，你當然是有類型化，我當然懂你的意思。"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，我們的調查事件，因為我們的案源來自於三種，一種大部分都是警察局對於少年如果觸法或者是他有曝險，現在曝險大概會先送少輔會，所以會送法院的，現在大概就是我們的觸法案件，進來之後我們就會分少調，所以這裡的調查案件是指12歲到18歲以下的少年觸犯刑罰法律的事件，這是我們的少年調查事件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，我的意思就是說……"],["謝廳長靜慧：另外一種是檢察官，另外其他還有不論任何人都可以向法院報告。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我以下要提的是，其實我感受到司法院跟法務部，你們對整個數字的掌握，其實在我看起來是有一個很大的落差啦！我想國人最關心、大家也最痛恨的，就是這幾年政府最想解決的少年的犯罪，大家最討厭的是什麼？我看接下來打詐四法其實朝野大家都有共識，大家也非常地痛恨，只是這個手段要怎麼樣通過法制化以後，提供給整個司法單位一個更好的利器。事實上，詐騙集團裡面一個很明顯的特徵就是，他很喜歡找年輕人當車手，反正被抓了向上溯源，青少年的刑責是最低的。所以關於少年觸法的人數，你說近十年沒有特別的一個漲幅，我相信、我也願意相信，從數字裡面來看，可是這個沒有特別的漲幅，就像剛剛你提到的觸法類型有所差別，原本從竊盜人數最大宗，到2021年開始變成詐欺人數最多。","但我要提出一點，我們政府必須要反省的一個地方就是，我們去跟別的國家做比較，你去跟鄰國日本做比較的話，日本從2003年以後，少年犯罪率跟犯罪人數一直處於穩定下降的趨勢，以2022年為例，少年刑事犯罪人口在10萬人裡面占193.3人；那臺灣同年、2022年來做比較的話，我們每10萬人口裡面是800人。日本193.3、我們800，秘書長，這個是很恐怖的喔！你去比較看看其他的國家，臺灣少年觸法人數這麼高，這看起來很少見，你看美國，有時候我們都認為它治安不太好，依美國司法部的統計，美國每10萬名裡面，10到17歲少年的被逮捕率，近十年減少了57%、降低了57%；英國的狀況也是如此，10到17歲的少年逮捕率從2011年20萬降到2021年5萬，減幅75%！","所以我要請教法務部，為什麼我們臺灣少年觸法事件這麼的高？我們沒有辦法有效降低，是不是我們整個制度設計上或者整個社會安全網上有哪一些需要再改善的地方？"],["徐次長錫祥：青少年犯罪是多面向的，絕對不是只有法律……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然！"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：社會、經濟……"],["徐次長錫祥：教育。"],["莊委員瑞雄：家庭等這些都是。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，打詐四法其實是我們防止詐騙很重要的利器，從源頭去管制、去克服，會使得案件下降。我們今年從1月到4月統計，其實我們的詐欺案件是下滑了，初步透過各部會的合作其實已經開始下滑、已經有百分之十幾的成績出來了。如果打詐四法經過大院再全力地支持我們，將這個法律制定好了以後，相關部會的子法再制定出來，會再更進一步有效地打擊這些詐騙集團。這個源頭管制好了以後，末端的青年車手應該會有所減少，所以我們希望大家一起努力，大院能夠來協助我們，我想這個是我們要報告的內容。"],["莊委員瑞雄：昨天我陪著卓院長去看韓院長，打詐四法我相信行政院也弄出來了，朝野針對這個部分的歧異也非常小，我們倒要好好地去檢驗，提供給我們司法部門這樣一個武器以後，接下來的人數、整個犯罪率，尤其是少年犯罪會不會降低。我現在針對的部分其實就是所謂的少年，我也會特別有感就是這個地方，我也不知道問題出在哪，我們去跟別的國家比較，人家是降低那麼多。","我們都知道少事法針對曝險少年的保護事件跟觸法少年的刑事案件提供他們不同的處遇，用這樣的分流，涉及到兩個重要的職務去做串聯，看上去就是少年調查官跟少年保護官，一個肩負調查、蒐集少年的資料，開庭前交由法官參考；一個執行保護處分，類似社會工作者這樣的角色，協助監督少年執行法院所裁定的處分。","這兩個看起來有明確定位的工作，本席時間比較少，不然我其實有發現一個很大的問題。這個制度從原來的少年觀護人演變而來，少年調查官跟少年保護官是從少年觀護人演變過來，到了1997年修法以後，把調查跟保護分開；實務上你去看，我從高雄的少年及家事法院來看，運作上你們又將兩個合併了，秘書長，又變合併了！合併以後，你說調查官同時也是一個保護官，我看起來就覺得怪怪的，秘書長，我看就怪怪的，你知道嗎？作為調查官本來程序上保持客觀，調查程序啟動以後，發現少年可能有其他符合觸法要件的事情，理論上調查官馬上要去告知，等於他是一個監督、觀察、提交重要證據給法官的人，如果你又把調查跟保護合併在一起的話，如果是我，我發現一個新的犯罪事實，我是調查又兼保護官，那我要呈報嗎？簡直是兩難，反而沒有辦法讓保護官落實原本要跟少年取得互信的基礎，我認為這個會打上一個大問號！","所以我請教秘書長，當初立意良善將調查跟保護制度分離，現在司法院要怎麼具體落實？有沒有辦法改善第一線實務的方式？"],["謝廳長靜慧：委員，是不是由我來回答？"],["莊委員瑞雄：我強調的是風險！"],["謝廳長靜慧：我知道。跟委員報告，我們的調查官跟保護官從1997年少事法大修法之後，其實是跟觀護人……最早是少年觀護人，後來才有成觀，而觀護人主要是做保護的部分，但少年法庭的調查官其實是要去調查少年為什麼會去竊盜、為什麼會去擔任車手背後的原因，比如他的家庭功能、教育功能到底有什麼問題，而調查跟保護後來兼理的原因主要是人力的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這我知道啦！"],["謝廳長靜慧：是！"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是本來分離你將他們合流，到最後變成合併這個角色，會不會有衝突？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，新北這個個案發生之後……"],["莊委員瑞雄：缺人！"],["謝廳長靜慧：對！我們大概用試辦……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們缺人，所以制度設計到最後因為缺人就把整個制度又收尾掉了！"],["謝廳長靜慧：沒有！跟委員報告，我們的試辦計畫──保護管束風險管理計畫就是把這塊的執行拉出來，然後找專責的調保官去處理保護處分的執行，尤其是高風險的少年，這部分我們在現有人力還沒有到位之前用這樣的方式，比如委外的社工師跟心理師協助我們的保護官去執行這些高風險的保護管束。"],["莊委員瑞雄：問題出在哪裡，你們知道嗎？制度設計冷冰冰！真正在落實的時候，你去跟別的國家做比較，我就看這個數字，差距太大！我們自己來做比較，我們那個數字呈現的下降趨勢，有、有下降，但是那個速度很慢；反觀你去跟隔壁的日本，甚至跟我們認為犯罪率很高的美國比較，我們也輸人很多！","很多制度的設計，是很多人的努力，這我都知道，不想去打擊，可是很多制度的設計就是聊備一格而已！譬如你們現在少輔會本身的組織也很微妙，由地方縣市首長擔任主任委員，讓警察跟社工人員一起來進行針對這些曝險少年的輔導跟改善，他們面對的可能有一些是施打毒品、有槍砲的人、準備要砍人或做壞事的，這些人真的有心、真的有在落實我們制度設計的這些工作嗎？我如果當縣長、當市長，我自己的事情都搞不完了，我還跟你們搞這些？我只是去剪綵一下、走動一下而已，當然也有鼓勵的性質，不能說沒有啦，所以這個就非常奇怪啦！","第三個問題我要請教一下部長，是次長，被我叫到你就馬上升官！現在少年輔導委員會先行以後，我們就試圖讓這些少輔會有更多的職能，任務變多，就像是司法院講的人力也沒有變多，那這些組織又這麼地鬆散，地方各局處參與的部分實際上到底有沒有任何統籌跟規劃？你們有沒有碰到什麼樣的困境？我們從去年轟動全臺的新北國中少年持彈簧刀把人殺害的案例就可以看到，這個少年他去過觀護所，如果說少年保護官的能量是足夠，你持續追蹤、配合當地的少輔，積極去介入個案的話，像這一些悲劇我認為其實都是可以減緩的。","所以我剛剛為什麼會講到你們談出來的，司法人就是常常會這樣，法律人就是常常這樣，會講出一套制度、制定一套制度，可是在冷冰冰的制度底下，再來看具體數字的時候，你會發現我們這些努力，我不想去打擊，可是我覺得這個成效的差距太大。","當然除了保護處分以外，還有少數的裁定感化教育跟安置輔導，這些處遇本席認為當然是非常重要，所以從3月桃園敦品矯正學校發生暴動以後，你們也特別針對感化教育處遇提出一些看法，這些我就不再贅述，但是從整個少事法的發動開始，問題就慢慢現形，少輔會的權責跟一路陪伴青年調查程序到保護程序的保護官，這個本席認為真的是重中之重，不能因為人力的問題，我們制度本來的設計是分流，結果到最後整個功能就失掉了，不要忘記，我們第一條有講為了保障少年健全的自我成長，調整其成長環境，並矯治他的性格，這一步其實是很多前輩慢慢跟社會溝通後才建構出來的制度，從對孩子的規訓跟懲罰，逐漸去落實以教育代替刑罰的保護精神，這條路本來就會非常漫長，中間我們也看到很多破口，我們也希望不是只有法務部跟司法院這兩個單位有辦法單獨去做到，可以從不同的環境處遇跟社福接軌，都可以盡力做的更完善，我要講的就是，都是大人啦！我們創造了制度，但是數字讓我們看見努力的空間還是很大，法務部還有司法院，我們也期待這個部分真的要努力，我光看到這個數字，尤其是法務部跟司法院這樣的一個數字，我兩張圖表讓你看，我就感受到你們對數字的看法、對整個狀況的掌握真的有落差，但是我覺得你們是無感的，因為你們看的是制度，立法院看的是這些冷冰冰的數字裡面，我們要怎麼去突破，讓這個制度去發揮具體落實，加油好不好？謝謝。"],["謝廳長靜慧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-28","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","林月琴","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","陳俊宇","謝龍介","沈發惠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-05-30"],"gazette_id":"1135401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135401_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、衛生福利部、教育部率所屬相關單位列席就「鐵窗裡的少年─\n如何提升輔導處遇、預防再犯、落實社區轉銜機制、促進社會復歸，並完備社會安全網」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135401_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.657843750000001,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.922843750000002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各位委員報告我們的調查事件呢因為我們的案源呢其實來自於三種一種大部分都是警察局對於少年如果有觸法或者是他有曝險那大概現在曝險大概會先送少府會所以會送法院呢大概現在大概就是我們的觸法案件進來之後我們就會分少調所以這裡的調查案件是指少年12歲到18歲以下的這個少年觸犯刑法法律的事件這是我們的少年調查事件"},{"start":187.722,"end":213.405,"text":"是啦 我的意思就是說另外一種是檢察官那另外其他的還有不論任何人都可以向法院報告我以下要提的就是說其實我感受到我們司法院這邊跟法務部這個地方你們對整個數字裡面這樣的一個掌握其實在我看起來是有很大的一個落差啦我看起來是很大落差但我想最主要啊國人最關心的大家也最痛恨的這幾年政府最想解決的"},{"start":214.446,"end":234.428,"text":"就是這個少年的一個犯罪那大家最討厭的是什麼我看接下來打詐司法這個草野大家其實大家都有共識大家也非常的一個痛恨只是這個手段怎麼樣在通過法制化以後讓提供給我們這個整個司法單位有更好的一個利器事實上"},{"start":235.749,"end":252.614,"text":"一個詐騙集團裡面一個很明顯的一個特徵就是說他很喜歡找年輕人當車手反正被抓了向上去溯源青少年的刑責是最低的所以這個其實少年處罰的人數近十年你說沒有特別的一個漲幅我相信"},{"start":253.539,"end":268.278,"text":"我也願意相信從數字裡面來看可是呢這個沒有特別的漲幅就像剛剛你提到的處罰的類型有所差別原本從竊盜人數最大宗到2021年開始變成詐欺人數最多但我要提出一點"},{"start":269.349,"end":291.499,"text":"我們政府必須要去反省的一個地方就是說我們去跟別的國家做比較你去跟鄰國的日本做比較的話日本從2003年以後日本的少年犯罪率跟犯罪人數一直處於穩定的下降的一個趨勢以2022年的為例他少年刑事人口犯罪的10萬人裡面是193.3人"},{"start":296.542,"end":301.726,"text":"臺灣2000同年2022年來做比較的話我們是每10萬人口裡面是800人日本193.3我們800"},{"start":308.373,"end":327.823,"text":"秘書長這個是很恐怖的你去看其他的國家台灣少年處罰人數這麼高這個看起來是很少見你看美國有時候我們都認為他治安不太好了美國司法部的一個統計美國是10萬名裡面10到17歲的少年被逮捕率近10年他減少了57%"},{"start":329.81,"end":358.941,"text":"他降低了57%英國的狀況也是如此那10到17歲的少年逮捕率從2011年從20萬降到2021年5萬減幅75%所以我要請教法務部的就是說為什麼我們台灣少年處罰事件這麼的高我們沒有辦法去有效的降低是不是我們整個制度的一個設計上或者整個社會安全網上有哪一些我們需要再改善的地方"},{"start":359.98,"end":383.462,"text":"青少年犯罪那是多面向的 絕對不是只有法律那當然 社會、經濟、家庭這些都是報告委員 那打詐是法是其實是我們在防止這個詐騙是一個很重要的利器那從源頭去管制去克服 會時的案件下降"},{"start":383.982,"end":411.709,"text":"那我們今年從1月到4月統計其實我們的詐欺的案件是下滑了已經有初步的透過各部會的合作其實我們已經看下法已經有百分之十幾的成績出來了那如果打詐事法經過大會再全力的支持我們我們這個法律制定好了以後相關部會的執法再制定出來會再更進一步的有效的打擊這些詐騙集團那這個源頭管制好了以後"},{"start":412.609,"end":413.93,"text":"昨天我陪了卓院長去看韓院長"},{"start":428.762,"end":453.247,"text":"打炸司法行政院也弄出來了我相信朝野這個部分其實其意也非常小我們都要好好的去檢驗提供給我們司法部門這樣的一個武器以後接下來的人數整個犯罪率尤其是少年犯罪會不會去做一個降低我現在針對的部分其實就是所謂的少年就是少年那我會特別有感就是這個地方"},{"start":454.963,"end":471.883,"text":"我沒有問題出在哪裡我們去跟別的國家比較人家是降低那麼多你說我們都知道少年少事法裡面針對暴險少年的保護事件跟處罰少年的刑事案件裡面提供他們不同的一個處遇用這樣的一個分流涉及到兩個重要的職務去做一個串聯"},{"start":472.904,"end":490.993,"text":"我看就是一個少年調查官跟少年保護官第一個他們肩負一個調查收集少年的一個資料你說開庭前交由法官去參考一個執行保護處分類似社會工作者這樣的一個角色來協助監督少年執行法院所裁定的一個處分這兩個看起來明確定位的一個工作其實我本期時間比較少不然我是發現其實很大的一個問題"},{"start":499.977,"end":519.566,"text":"這個制度從原來的少年關護人演變來從少年關護人去演變過來到了我們1997年去修法以後把調查跟保護分開實務上你去看我從那個高雄的少年跟家事法院裡面來看運作上你倒就是變成把兩個又變成合併了"},{"start":521.687,"end":529.654,"text":"您可變合併了,聯名司長,變合併了合併以後就是說,你說這調查官同時也是一個保護官我看起來就覺得怪怪的"},{"start":531.035,"end":553.955,"text":"比說我看就怪怪的你知道嗎就是說作為調查官你本來程序上你會保持客觀調查程序啟動以後發現少年可能跟有其他符合處罰的要件的一個事情理論上你調查官馬上要去告知那等於說他是一個監督、觀察、提交重要證據給法官的人那如果你就把這個調查官跟調查跟保護又把它合併在一起的話"},{"start":555.316,"end":562.753,"text":"有時候如果是我的話我發現一個新式犯罪的事實我調查右肩保護官我還要懲報嗎"},{"start":564.962,"end":588.665,"text":"這簡直是一個兩難你反而沒有辦法讓保護官原本要跟少年取得互信這樣的一個基礎我認為你這個會打上一個大問號所以我請教秘書長就是說你像現在司法院目前當初利益良善的調查跟保護你把它分離的制度你這樣要怎麼具體落實也沒有辦法去改善這個像第一線這樣實務的一個方式"},{"start":591.293,"end":612.766,"text":"我強調的是風險我們的調查官跟保護官從1997年開始少子法大修法之後他其實是跟關護人就是最早是少年關護人後來才有成關關護人其實主要是做保護的部分"},{"start":613.306,"end":630.873,"text":"但少年法庭的調查官他其實要去調查少年為什麼會去竊盜為什麼會去擔任車手背後的原因比如他的家庭功能、他的教育功能到底有什麼問題所以啊 調查跟保護後來監理的原因主要是人力的問題就我知道啦 人家在本地分離你跟河流還要變成合併你這個角色"},{"start":632.654,"end":632.754,"text":"會不會有衝突?"},{"start":654.27,"end":658.312,"text":"問題出在哪裡你們知道嗎制度設計冷冰冰啊真正在落實的時候為什麼沒有你去跟別的國家做比較"},{"start":682.588,"end":710.288,"text":"我就看這個數字啊,差距太大。我們自己做筆稿,我們那個數字呈現的下降趨勢其實是很急,有,有下降,但是那個速度是很慢的啦。你反觀你去跟隔壁的日本,甚至我們認為說整個犯罪率很高的美國去做比較的話,我們也輸人添添嘛。那一項很多制度的一個設計,我會覺得很多人在努力,我都知道。"},{"start":711.189,"end":734.039,"text":"不想去打擊可是很多制度的涉及這是一種撩背一格而已啊你像譬如說你們現在少舞會本身的組織也很微妙啊那個地方縣市首長擔任主委委員這樣警察跟社工人員一起來進行針對這些普遣少年的輔導跟改善他們面對的都可能就是有一些譬如說施打毒品啊或有槍砲的人啊準備要砍人或做壞事的這一些這些人真的有心還真的有在去落實我們制度設計這個崗位"},{"start":740.285,"end":763.853,"text":"我做館長、我做企長,我自己的事就不去,我跟你們在一起我去跟你們煎菜一個月而已,我去跟你們走一個月而已當然也有鼓勵的性質,不能說沒有啦所以這個就非常奇怪啦那你本身啦,我再看啦第三個問題我要請教一下,部長,我要請市長,我要叫到你就念我先"},{"start":766.415,"end":794.507,"text":"這個少輔會我們現在少年輔導委員會先行以後我們就試圖讓這些少輔會有更多的職能任務變多但就像司法院講的人力也沒有變多那這些組織又這麼的鬆散地方各局處參與的部分實際上到底有沒有任何去統籌跟規劃你們有沒有碰到什麼樣的一個困境我們從去年轟動全台的那種新北國中少年吃那個台灣刀"},{"start":795.547,"end":824.384,"text":"把人殺害的案例就可以看到了這個少年他去過了關務所如果說少年保護官的能量是足夠你持續去做一個追蹤配合當地的少府積極去介入個案的話像這些悲劇我都認為說都其實都是可以減緩的啦都是可以減緩的啦所以我剛剛為什麼會講到說你們談出來的司法人就是常常會這樣法律人就常常這樣會講出一道制度"},{"start":825.649,"end":840.95,"text":"來制定一套制度可是呢冷冰冰的制度底下再來看具體的數字你會發現我們這些努力啊不能我就不想去打擊可是我就覺得這個成效差距太大"},{"start":842.165,"end":842.185,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":857.662,"end":882.952,"text":"是特別針對的趕快教育入園的一些處遇提出的看法我這不再贅述了但是從整個少年少事法的一個發動的開始問題你就慢慢去現行少五會的權責跟一路陪伴青年調查程序到保護程序的保護官這個其實本席認為真的是重中之重不能因為說人力的問題啊到最後我們制度的設計本來是分流然後到最後"},{"start":883.712,"end":911.878,"text":"就變成說整個功能就失掉了不要忘記了你看我們第一條就講說為了保障少年健全的自我成長調整跟成長環境並矯制他的一個性格這一步其實是很多前輩慢慢跟社會溝通才建構出來的一個制度那從對孩子的規訓跟懲罰逐漸去落實教育代替刑法的保護的一個精神這條路本來就會非常"},{"start":914.256,"end":941.828,"text":"中間我們也看到很多破口我們也希望說當然不是只有法務部跟司法院這邊這兩個單位就有辦法單獨去做到可以從不同的環境、處域跟社福的一個接軌都可以進一步做完善我們要說的就是都大人我們都能創建大人創造社會環境努力的空間還是很大法務部還有司法院這個地方我們也期待真的是"},{"start":942.848,"end":969.967,"text":"真的這個部分要努力啦我光看到這個數字喔尤其是法務部跟司法院這樣的一個數字我兩張圖表讓你看你們就我就感受到你們的對數字這樣的一個看法還對整個狀況的一個掌握真的有落差但是我覺得我覺得你們是無感的因為你們看的是制度立法院看的是說這些冷冰冰的數字裡面我們怎麼樣去突破讓這個制度去發揮具體落實加油好不好好 謝謝謝謝總委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}