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等提案第五條對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11002781號"},{"start":2376.654,"end":2391.454,"text":"除第一項增定第18款為18電子支付第19款由原第18款條文第一第二項手具中手具末的業者修正為提供者"},{"start":2393.783,"end":2411.059,"text":"第五項首具聚首的第一項金融機構修正為第一項之第三項之事業或人員金融機構第二具條文中依其業務的其字三處修正為一業務。其餘同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11002781號提案"},{"start":2415.233,"end":2417.015,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第11004478號同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11002781號提案第五條"},{"start":2428.993,"end":2453.926,"text":"行政院提案第六條提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務之事業或人員未向中央目的事業主管機關完成洗錢防制服務能量登記或登錄者不得提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務境外設立之提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務之事業或人員非依公司法辦理公司或分公司"},{"start":2455.386,"end":2479.257,"text":"設立登記並完成洗錢防制服務能量登記或登錄者不得在我國境內提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員辦理前項洗錢防制登記之申請條件程序測銷或廢紙登記虛擬資產上下架之審查機制防止不公正交易機制"},{"start":2479.937,"end":2506.395,"text":"自有資產與客戶資產分離保管方式資訊系統與安全錢包管理機制及其他應遵循四項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之提供第三方支付服務之事業或人員辦理第一項洗錢防制及服務能量登錄之申請條件程序撤銷或廢紙登錄及其他應遵循四項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":2507.456,"end":2531.167,"text":"違反第一項規定為完成洗錢防制服務能量登記或登錄而提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務或其洗錢防制登記經特銷或廢止服務能量登錄經廢止或失效而仍提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務者處二年以下有期徒刑、居易或科或病科新台幣500萬元以下罰金"},{"start":2533.268,"end":2560.809,"text":"法人犯前項之罪者處處罰其行為人外對該法人亦可以前項十倍以下之罰金台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11002781號第五條之一前項第二前條第二項融資性租賃之事業虛擬資產服務提供者第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲點數"},{"start":2564.475,"end":2585.285,"text":"業者於營業前應備其一定文件向中央目的事業主管機關進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明之登記。中央目的事業主管機關於收受洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之日期45日內應將申請結果、續名理由以書面回覆申請人。"},{"start":2586.351,"end":2600.631,"text":"前向所定之一定文件以及辦理洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部定之境外之融資性租賃之事業"},{"start":2602.592,"end":2619.878,"text":"虛擬資產服務提供者第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者非經依公司法辦理登記並向中央目的事業主管機關辦理完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明者不得與我國境內進行廣告業務招攬或營業"},{"start":2623.526,"end":2644.383,"text":"為進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記卻進行廣告業務招攬或營業者處兩年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或病科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金委員郭國文等提案第六條之一虛擬資產平台及交易服務"},{"start":2647.628,"end":2672.207,"text":"虛擬資產場外交易服務第三方支付服務提供者為向中央主管機關完成洗錢防制防制登記者不得進行虛擬資產與第三方支付服務廣告業務招攬及其他顧問與委託投資業務境外設立之虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務提供者非依公司法辦理公司或分公司"},{"start":2673.147,"end":2700.56,"text":"設立登記並完成洗錢防制登記者不得在我國境內進行虛擬資產與第三方支付服務廣告業務招攬及擔任投資顧問與委託投資業務前向虛擬資產服務與第三方支付服務提供者應備其一定文件向中央目的事業主管機關進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明之登記中央目的事業主管機關關於"},{"start":2702.771,"end":2721.068,"text":"收受洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記申請之日起。四十五日內應將申請結果虛名理由以書面回覆申請人。虛擬資產平台及交易服務虛擬資產場外交易服務第三方支付服務提供者"},{"start":2721.828,"end":2745.681,"text":"辦理前項洗錢防制登記之申請條件及其他應遵循事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之違反第一項規定為完成洗錢防制之登記而提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務或其洗錢防制登記經撤銷或廢止而仍提供虛擬資產服務第三方支付服務者"},{"start":2746.681,"end":2773.096,"text":"處兩年以下有期徒刑具欲或科或併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金違反前項規定之虛擬資產服務提供者中央目的事業主管機關應將其公開為黑名單且金融機構得以暫停或限制違反者帳戶帳號之全部或部分功能或禁與關閉暫停帳戶之作業程序及辦法由主管機關定之"},{"start":2774.301,"end":2792.935,"text":"法人犯第四項之罪者主處罰其行為人外對該法人亦可以前項十倍以下罰金台灣民眾黨黨團提案第1104478號提案第五條之一第一項同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第110278號提案第一項"},{"start":2803.769,"end":2831.668,"text":"第二項至第八項條文為前項所定之一定文件以及辦理洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記之方式程序及其他應遵循事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部定之未完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記卻進行廣告或業務招攬第一次被查獲者由中央目的事業主管機關儲新台幣50萬元以上100萬元以下罰還"},{"start":2834.049,"end":2862.341,"text":"並由中央目的事業主管機關公布名單第二次被查獲者處新台幣一百萬元以上二百五十萬元以下罰還並獻期責令完成第一項之登記第三次以上被查獲者處一年以下有期徒刑局域或科或病科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金未依第一項規定完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記卻營業第一次被查獲者"},{"start":2863.101,"end":2880.213,"text":"由中央目的事業主管機關處新台幣250萬元以上1000萬元以下罰還由中央目的事業主管機關公佈名單並責令完成第一項之登記登記完成前不得營業會議第一項規定進行洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記卻營業"},{"start":2882.557,"end":2896.667,"text":"第二次被查獲者處兩年以下有期徒刑。據獄或科或病科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金。法人違反前三項規定者,其代表人或負責人亦處各該項所定之裁罰。"},{"start":2898.188,"end":2924.893,"text":"不同法人但代表人負責人董事經理人實質受益人實質控制人相同或可證明為同一自然忍者亦處第二項至第四項所定之裁罰第三項及第四項所定由中央目的事業主管機關所公布之名單其所應公布之項目方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關定之"},{"start":2926.528,"end":2953.042,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第11004478號第五條之二近外之融資性租賃之事業虛擬資產服務提供者第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲臉書業者非經依公司法辦理登記並向中央目的事業主管機關辦理完成前項所定洗錢防制法令遵循聲明登記者"},{"start":2953.742,"end":2972.101,"text":"不得與我國境內進行廣告業務招攬或營業境外之融資性註定事業虛擬資產服務提供者第三方支付服務業者及線上遊戲或遊戲點數業者違反前項規定會議公司法辦理登記或未向中央目的事業主管"},{"start":2974.847,"end":3002.556,"text":"機關辦理完成洗錢防制法令遵循聲明而與我國境內進行廣告業務招攬或營業第一次被查獲者中央目的事業主管機關應公開其名單並令其依前條規定辦理洗錢防制法令遵循聲明經中央目的事業主管機關依前項規定要求辦理洗錢防制法令遵循聲明為完成確認進行廣告業務招攬或營業"},{"start":3003.615,"end":3013.317,"text":"第二次以上被查獲者中央目的事業主管機關得釋情節與查獲次數,限制其網頁或網站之瀏覽。"},{"start":3014.335,"end":3034.187,"text":"或要求網際網路平台提供者網際網路應用服務提供者或網際網路接取服務提供者移除相關之網頁資料第二項名單之建制應公開之資料方式及其他應遵循事項之辦法第三項中央目的事業主管機關所"},{"start":3037.016,"end":3059.076,"text":"應視情節查獲之次數限制網頁或網站瀏覽之方式程序移除之方式程序及其他應遵循遵行事項之辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會商保護後定之行政院提案第七條由原第六條條次變更並將第四項"},{"start":3064.683,"end":3093.035,"text":"第四項後段中的一千萬元以下罰還的分號修正為頓號後段的一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下令增定莫具為並得按次處罰第五項條文中的五百萬元以下罰還後面的分號修正為頓號令五十萬元以下修正為二百五十萬元以下"},{"start":3094.184,"end":3120.672,"text":"令增定默劇為並得按次處罰其餘未修正行政院提案第八條由原第七條條次變更並將第五項手續修正為違反第一項至第三項規定或前項鎖定辦法中有關確認客戶身份留存確認資料加強客戶審查之範圍程序方式之規定者"},{"start":3122.199,"end":3131.653,"text":"令後段中的一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下。令增訂墨具為並得按次處罰其餘未修正。"},{"start":3132.999,"end":3158.98,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第七條之一法務部應建制平台提供金融機構及指定非金融機構事業或人員辦理前條鎖定確認客戶身份程序前項鎖定平台就其應收集之資料範圍查詢及查詢之相關程序方式及其他應遵行事項之辦法"},{"start":3159.778,"end":3175.768,"text":"由保務部會商中央目的事業主管機關及相關機關後定之。於定定前應遵循相關公會之意見。行政院提案第九條由原第十一條條次變更條文未修正"},{"start":3177.04,"end":3194.438,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第11條第一項未修正第二項修正為前項所稱洗錢或滋恐高風險國家或地區之定義依國際防治洗錢組織公告定之"},{"start":3196.089,"end":3210.066,"text":"行政院提案第10條有緣第8條條次變更並將第二項手續中的交易記錄修正為必要交易記錄第三項手續中的交易記錄修正為必要交易記錄"},{"start":3213.902,"end":3241.241,"text":"第四項手具修正為違反第一項第二項規定或前項鎖定辦法中有關留存必要交易記錄之範圍程序方式之規定者後段中的一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下令增訂墨具為並得按次處罰其餘未修正行政院提案第十一條非信託業之受託人"},{"start":3242.864,"end":3261.891,"text":"於信託關係循序中必須取得並持有足夠正確與最新有關信託之委託人、受託人、受益人及任何其他最終有效控制信託之自然人之身份資訊及持有其他信託代理人、信託服務業者及本資訊。"},{"start":3263.371,"end":3274.902,"text":"前向受託人應就前向信託資訊進行申報並於資訊發生變更時主動更新申報資訊。第一向非信託人之受託人"},{"start":3276.107,"end":3294.343,"text":"第一項非信託業之受託人以非信託業之指定其非金融事業或人員或其他法人為限其受理申報之機關如下依指定之非營業事業或人員擔任受託人者"},{"start":3295.363,"end":3318.9,"text":"為各該業別之主管機關二千款以外之法人擔任受託人者為各該目的事業主管機關受託人自然受託人自信託關係終止時期應保存第一項之資訊至少五年第一項受託人以信託財產於金融機構指定之非金融"},{"start":3320.001,"end":3343.099,"text":"事業或人員建立業務關係或進行達一定金額之臨時性交易時應主動揭露其在信託中之地位第二項之申報更新申報之範圍方式程序前項一定金額之範圍揭露方式或其他應遵行事項之辦法由保護部會商相關機關定之"},{"start":3344.76,"end":3363.47,"text":"違反第二項第四項第五項或前項所定辦法中有關第二項申報更新申報之範圍方式程序或第五項揭露方式之規定者由第三項受理申報機關處心台幣五萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰"},{"start":3367.516,"end":3386.245,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第十條之一金融機構及指定之非金融事業或人員擔任受託人與辦理信託關係程序中必須取得並持有足夠正確及最新有關信託之委託人受託人收益人"},{"start":3387.305,"end":3413.949,"text":"及任何其他最終有效控制信託之自然人身份資訊以及持有其他信託代理人信託服務業者基本資訊前向受託人在信託終止後應保存資訊至少5年受託人以信託財產與金融機構及指定之非金融事業或人員建立業務關係時應主動揭露其在信託中之地位"},{"start":3414.741,"end":3420.598,"text":"第一項所定應取得資訊之範圍方式第二項資訊保存之範圍方式程序"},{"start":3421.721,"end":3449.095,"text":"以及第三項應揭露資資訊範圍程序方式及其他應遵行事項辦法由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部及相關機關定之於訂定前應徵詢相關公會之意見違反第一項至第三項規定及前項所定辦法者由中央目的事業主管機關限期令其改善藉其未改善者處受託人新台幣五萬元以上一百萬元以下罰還"},{"start":3452.168,"end":3480.743,"text":"行政院提案第十二條由原第九條條次變更除第一項手具一定金額後面的以上二字刪除令第三項後段中的一千萬元以下發還後面的分號修正為頓號一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下令增訂墨具為並得按次處罰其餘未修正"},{"start":3481.997,"end":3503.144,"text":"行政院提案第十三條由原第十條條次變更除第一項條文中第十四條第十五條修正為第十九條第二十條第四項手句修正為前項第七條第三項第八條第四項第十條第三項及前條第三項之辦法"},{"start":3504.571,"end":3532.55,"text":"第五項後段一千萬元以下罰還後面的分號修正為頓號一百萬元以下修正為五百萬元以下令增定莫具為並得按次處罰其餘未修正行政院提案第十四條由原第十二條條次變更除第一項第一款次第四款條文中的以上二字均刪除令第一款末的現鈔修正為現金"},{"start":3535.191,"end":3558.148,"text":"第四項第二具修正為其超過前項規定金額部分由海關沒入之末具的前段修正為由海關處以相當於其超過前項規定金額部分或第五項第五具修正為其超過第三項規定金額部分由海關沒入之其餘未修正"},{"start":3559.828,"end":3578.287,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第十二條第一項至第三項未修正第四項及第五項同行政院提案第十四條第四項及第五項第六項的莫具巨莫的通報修正為申報其餘未修正"},{"start":3579.457,"end":3602.962,"text":"行政院提案第15條海關查獲未依前條第一項或第二項規定申報或申報不實之物應予扣留但該扣留之物為前條第一項第一款之物者其所有人管領人或持有人得向海關申報提供足額之保證金准予撤銷扣留後發還之"},{"start":3604.782,"end":3616.197,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第十二條之一除倒數第二句末的保證金修正為單保金外其餘通行政院提案的第十五條條文"},{"start":3618.962,"end":3637.012,"text":"行政院提案第16條海關一第14條第4項後段裁處罰還與處分書送達後為防止受處分人隱匿或移轉財產以逃避執行,得免供擔保向行政法院申請假扣押或假處分,但受處分人已提供相當擔保者不在此限。"},{"start":3637.992,"end":3653.392,"text":"第17條受理第12條、第13條申報及第14條通報之機關。繼於防止洗錢或打擊滋恐目的的就所受理申報、通報之資料予以分析,為辦理分析業務的向相關公務機關或非公務機關調取必要之資料。"},{"start":3654.032,"end":3677.463,"text":"前向受理申報通報之機關就分析結果,任由查緝犯罪、追討犯罪所得、健全洗錢防制、穩定金融秩序及強化國際合作之必要時,得分送國內外相關機關。相關公務機關基於防制洗錢打擊指控目的或依其他法律規定,得向第一項受理申報通報之機關查詢所受理申報通報之相關資料。"},{"start":3678.423,"end":3687.298,"text":"前三項資料與分析結果之種類範圍運用、調取、分送查詢之程序、方式及其他相關事項之辦法由法務部定之。"},{"start":3688.484,"end":3706.137,"text":"行政院提案第18條由限刑法第13條條字變更並將第一項第二句中犯第14條或第15條之罪者修正為犯第19條或第20條之罪者單書前的句號修正為逗號及第五項的首句中的第21條修正為第28條其餘未修正"},{"start":3709.525,"end":3729.674,"text":"行政院提案第19條有第二條各款所列洗錢行為者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣一億元以下罰金及洗錢之財務或財產上利益未達新台幣一億元者處六月以上五月以下有期徒刑並科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金前項之為稅犯罰之"},{"start":3732.015,"end":3753.692,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第十四條有第二條各款所列洗錢行為者處六月以上五餘年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金其特定犯罪所得達新台幣一億元以上者處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑得並科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金前項之未遂犯罰之"},{"start":3756.676,"end":3771.162,"text":"行政院提案第20條授受持有或使用之財產或財使用之財物或財產上利益有下列情形之一而無合理來源者處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金依冒名"},{"start":3772.122,"end":3800.08,"text":"以假名或其他與身份相關之不實資訊向金融機構提供虛擬資產服務或第三方支付服務之事業或人員申請開立賬戶賬號二（以不證方法取得使用他人向金融機構申請開立之賬戶向提供虛擬資產服務或第三方支付服務之事業或人員申請之賬號三（規避第八條第十條之第十三條鎖定洗錢防制程序請向之未遂範罰之"},{"start":3801.803,"end":3819.933,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第15條收受持有或使用之財產財物或財產上財產上利益有下列情形之一等命本人就該財物或財產上利益之來源提出說明無真當理由未為說明無法提出合理說明或說明不實者"},{"start":3820.613,"end":3834.728,"text":"處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得兵科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金一（財務或財產上利益與本人收受使用或持有期間之收入或支出顯不相當者二（以不正方法取得或使用他人向金融機構申請開立之賬戶向虛擬"},{"start":3838.553,"end":3857.211,"text":"資產服務提供者或第三方支付機構申請能儲存財務或財產上的異議之賬號三（以冒名假名或其他不實質資訊規避第七條確認客戶身份之程序四（以不合教育常規或其他方式規避第八條留存必要記錄之程序五（以分批"},{"start":3858.112,"end":3879.346,"text":"提存通貨交易或其他方式規避第九條之申報程序。六）以提供不實資訊或其他方式規避第十條之申報程序。犯傾向之罪及收受持有或使用之財物或財產上利益之金額大一億元以上者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以上五千萬元以下之罰金。"},{"start":3882.236,"end":3903.371,"text":"行政院提案第21條由現行法第15條之一條次變更並將第一項的手具後段修正為頓號向提供虛擬資產服務或第三方支付服務之失業或人員申請之賬號其餘未修正。行政院提案第22條由現行法第15條之二條次變更並將第一項的手具中的"},{"start":3905.896,"end":3922.784,"text":"首句後段修正為燈號向提供虛擬資產服務或第三方支付服務之事業或人員申請之賬號交付及第五項的第二句修正為燈號金融機構提供虛擬資產服務及第三方支付服務之事業或人員"},{"start":3923.945,"end":3948.247,"text":"第三具中的得修正委應其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團庭第十五條之二第一項至第六項未修正增訂第七項及第八項第七項依第五項規定而予以限制之帳戶如今確認係應錯誤或經調查後經不起訴處分確定未有裁處告解之必要者其帳戶或帳號之管控應予以解除"},{"start":3949.108,"end":3974.266,"text":"錢箱、帳戶、帳號之認定基準解除、告誡、撤銷、暫停、限制功能之認定方式、範圍程序、作業程序等應遵循事項之辦法由法務部會同中央目的事業主管機關定之。第九項由原現行法第七項遞以其餘未修正。行政院提案第23條法人之代表人、代理人、受僱人或其他從業人員應執行業務犯前四條之罪者。"},{"start":3976.567,"end":3995.7,"text":"處處罰行為人外（對該法人並可以十倍以下之罰金（但法人之代表人或自然人對於犯罪之發生（以盡力為防止行為者不在此限。犯第19條至第21條之罪與犯最後自首如有所得或並自動繳交全部所得財務者,減輕或免除其刑。"},{"start":3996.56,"end":4019.455,"text":"並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官得以扣押全部洗錢之財物或財產上利益或查獲其他證犯或共犯者免除其刑。犯前四條之罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白者如有所得或並自動繳交全部所得財務者減輕其刑並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官得以扣押全部洗錢之財產財物或財產上利益"},{"start":4021.997,"end":4045.314,"text":"或查或其他政犯或共犯者減輕或免除其刑。第十九條、第二十條或第二十一條之罪與中華民國人民在中華民國領域外犯罪者適用之。第十九條之罪不以本法鎖定特定犯罪之行為或結果在中華民國領域內為必要,但該特定犯罪已行為遞之法律,不罰者不在此限。"},{"start":4046.535,"end":4072.764,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第16條法人之代表人、代理人、收穫人或其他從業人員應執行業務犯前四條之罪者處處罰行為人外對該法人並可以各該條罪所定二十倍以下之罰金犯前四條之罪與犯罪後自首如自動繳交全部特定犯罪所得者得減金或免除其薪並因而查獲其他偵犯或共犯者免除其薪"},{"start":4073.604,"end":4093.156,"text":"犯前四條之罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如自動繳交全部特定犯罪所得者減輕其刑並因而查獲其他偵犯或共犯者減輕其刑至二分之一第十四條第十五條或第十五條之一之罪由於中華民國人民在中華民國領域之外犯罪者使用之"},{"start":4093.676,"end":4121.282,"text":"第十四條之罪不以本法所定特定犯罪之行為或結果在中華民國領域內為必要但該特定犯罪依行為地之法律不罰者不在此限行政院提案第二十四條由憲刑法第十七條條字變更並將條文中的第十四條第十五條均修正為第十九條第二十條其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十七條對照憲刑法"},{"start":4122.386,"end":4147.362,"text":"第一項第二項維修正增定第三項第四項申報單位之人員中央目的事業主管機關之人員以及與偵查程序中依法執行職務之人員基於防制洗錢目的而泄露或交付之關於申報疑似犯第十四條第十五條第十五條之一第十六十五條之二之罪嫌疑之文書圖畫消息或物品者等免除簽二項之刑"},{"start":4148.55,"end":4175.525,"text":"金融機構或指定非金融事業或人員寄予一方洗錢防制目的而泄露或交付之關於第七條第一項及第三項第八條第一項第九條第一項及關於申報疑似犯第十四條第十五條第十五條之一第十五條之二之罪嫌疑之文書圖畫消息或物品不受各自保護法之限制及範圍程序方式及其他相關事業及相關事項之辦法由法務部定之。"},{"start":4176.585,"end":4194.491,"text":"行政院提案第25條由現行法第18條條字變更並將第一項修正為犯第19條第20條之罪洗錢之財物或財產上利益不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之第二項手續修正成犯第19條或第20條之罪"},{"start":4196.972,"end":4225.598,"text":"第三項守據中的第二十一條修正為第二十八條之外其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十八條犯第十四條之罪洗錢所涉之財物或財產上利益不問屬於犯罪行為人與否沒收之犯第十四條或第十五條之罪有事實足以證明行為人所得之配置前項規定以外財物或財產上利益系取自其他違法行為之所得者沒收之第三項未修正"},{"start":4227.426,"end":4244.959,"text":"行政院提案第二十六條由憲刑法第十九條條次變更第一項未修正第二項除了守據中第二十一條修正為第二十八條之外其餘未修正。行政院提案第二十七條由憲刑法第二十條條次變更其餘未修正。"},{"start":4245.7,"end":4266.456,"text":"行政院提案第28條對照現行法第21條第一項未修正第二項對於外國政府機構或國際組織請求我國協助之案件除條約或協定另有規定者外的基於互惠原則提供第12條至第14條受理申報或通報之資料及及調查結果"},{"start":4267.116,"end":4290.543,"text":"依第一項規定以外之其他條約或協定所交換之資訊的基於互惠原則為防制洗錢或打擊自恐目的之用但依該條約或協定規定禁止或應符合一定要件使得為特定目的外之用者從其規定台灣地區與大陸地區香港及澳門間之洗錢防制準用前三項規定"},{"start":4292.468,"end":4317.205,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案第二十一條對照現行法第二十一條第一項第二項未修正第三項依第一項規定以外之其他條約或協定所交換之資訊的基於互惠原則為防制洗錢或打擊自恐目的之用但依該條約或協定規定禁止或應符合一定要件使得為特定目的外之用者不在此限"},{"start":4317.765,"end":4322.398,"text":"台灣地區與大陸地區香港及澳門間之洗錢防制準用前三項規定"},{"start":4325.066,"end":4349.346,"text":"行政院提案第29條為偵辦洗錢犯罪檢察官得以職權或依司法檢察官申請提出控制下交付之偵查計劃書並檢附相關資料報請檢察長核可後核發偵查指揮書前項控制下交付之偵查計劃書應記載下列事項一犯罪嫌疑人或被告之年級資料二"},{"start":4349.966,"end":4370.586,"text":"所犯罪名三所涉犯罪事實四使用控制下交付調查犯罪之必要性五洗錢行為太陽標的及數量六偵查犯罪所需其間方法及其他作為七其他必要之事項台灣民眾黨黨團提案第21條之一同行政院提案第29條"},{"start":4373.311,"end":4380.274,"text":"行政院提案第30條、一）第7條、第二項之查核、第7條、第4項、第5項、第8條、第5項、第10條、第4項、第12條、第4項、第13條、第5項之採處及其調查、中央目的實業主管機關得委拜直轄市、縣市政府辦理並由直轄市、縣市政府定期呈報查核成效。第31條本法除第6條及第31"},{"start":4398.223,"end":4412.74,"text":"及第十一條之施行日期由行政院定之外於自公布日施行宣讀完畢。好,提案條文均已宣讀完畢,現在先休息。"},{"start":4716.889,"end":4742.43,"text":"好繼續開會在進行討論之前先確認上次會議議事錄好那麼請問各位對於上次會議事錄有無錯或遺漏沒有那麼議事錄確定好現在呢我們繼續併案審查行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等事案那請教委員有沒有我們要先大體提討論"},{"start":4745.526,"end":4773.897,"text":"我是建議直接進入主條。好。那我們就進行主條審查。那麼來開始。來。坐下來啦。那我們現在進行主條審查。因為本案是全案修正處理有三十個條文。我們先從第一條。那第一條呢。我們是行政院提案啦。"},{"start":4776.622,"end":4793.892,"text":"來我看一下本條並未修正是否我們就照行政院提案通過同意好那接下來第二條呢有行政院提案也有台灣民眾黨黨團提案那這個部分是不是有台灣民眾黨黨團請換委員請"},{"start":4796.926,"end":4813.694,"text":"好謝謝主席我想我們的提案其實我們是針對整本修正喔那這個其實是把它講得更清楚那當然願版的部分跟我們的意見是差不多只是我們會把使用自己特定犯罪所得與他人進行交易這個部分他放在這個"},{"start":4815.615,"end":4837.654,"text":"第三項的後面的原因是因為他是收受持有或持有他人特定犯罪者那有點把這個定義放在等同不過按照院版的方法也應該是差不多所以我們沒有特別意見好那麼其他委員目前有院版跟民眾黨團版其實意思是一樣只是在第三款後面接續或者分為第四款"},{"start":4839.06,"end":4867.391,"text":"來 沈委員那我們是不是因為這個意思是一樣啦就是他就是把這個第三款這個跟第四款這邊分裂那我們是不是就尊重院版我們就照院版的這個來好 如果委員同意的話我們就照行政院版行政院提案通過好 現在第三條也是有行政院提案跟民眾黨團提案那麼請問黃委員有沒有要進行說明"},{"start":4870.097,"end":4898.399,"text":"是現在主席我想我們的版本其實跟院版的部分其實都差內容差不多但是可能會有一些增列或什麼但我們原則上如果委員們沒有意見的話我覺得院版部分我們也可以接受好是那我們第三條就照行政院提案通過接下來第四條本條未修正那我們是不是就照行政院提案通過"},{"start":4899.807,"end":4912.857,"text":"同意。接下來第五條有行政院提案台灣民眾黨團提案還有郭委員等提案那是不是一樣我們先請台灣民眾黨團說明"},{"start":4918.059,"end":4934.168,"text":"五條的部分我們主要跟行政院不同的是他目前沒有把第三方支付放在這個系統裡面所以我們認為說這個部分可能會有漏失因為第三方支付業者還是有處理金流還有接受民眾的款項還要跟銀行申請所謂的虛擬賬戶"},{"start":4935.929,"end":4955.938,"text":"來存放客戶的款項,它的確還是洗房的一個對象,所以我們希望在地方方支付應該還是要放進來。那如果院版沒有的話,我們是不是建議這個部分可以保留,然後到院會再來討論。來,那個請森委員。我們是不是請法務部這邊做一下說明。好,法務部請說明。"},{"start":4958.275,"end":4977.909,"text":"第三方支付的話已經行政院已經把它指定為非金融機構的指定非金融機構在110年已經指定了所以這個就會是在第三項第三項裡面所列的這一個非金融機構"},{"start":4979.828,"end":4987.148,"text":"對就第三項是屬於那個非金融指定的非金融機構現在已經有法律規範了"},{"start":4993.107,"end":5014.604,"text":"是主席我們的意見是這樣因為他現在就是行政院把這個部分放到訴法部去但是如果有相關的狀況我們希望他是比較適同金融機構來處理否則他會是洗房或者是在整個業務上面可能會有掛一個萬的狀況所以我們還是希望能夠把第三方支付加進來"},{"start":5016.24,"end":5023.567,"text":"好請那個次長說明這個第三份支付是不是請那個"},{"start":5025.658,"end":5053.286,"text":"哪一位?數位部來說明一下。好。我們速發部是師傅組長。是。主席還有黃委員。大家好。我說明一下第三方支付的部分。第三方支付的部分目前是在110年8月18號的時候是由法務部會同經濟部報請行政院指定它是非金融事業及人員。這個指定是依照洗錢法第五條第四項的規定來指定。然後它指定為是洗錢法第五條"},{"start":5054.386,"end":5062.294,"text":"第三項第五款的一個非金融事業人員那他的洗房的要求呢也是比照金融機構以上說明"},{"start":5063.578,"end":5087.589,"text":"好那主席在這裡先暫時就一個說明因為我們在場有包括郭國文委員的提案那這裡面我想也就較於我們的行政機關因為在第17款是信託業那18款我們看到郭委員的部分等一下"},{"start":5094.385,"end":5103.764,"text":"對好那麼郭委員的部分在26頁的部分他有一個電子支付頁那因為現在電資已經被金管會認定為金融機構納管"},{"start":5105.54,"end":5134.46,"text":"那是不是說這裡可以考慮吼因為這當然吶因為第18款是說其他經目的事業主管機關指定的金融機構其實電子支付業就已經在第18款當中那但是如果單獨列出來呢也不妨礙到他跟第18款之間的這個相合度啦所以呢在郭委員的版本呢他是有提到這一點吼他特別將電子支付業呢獨立成一個一款"},{"start":5135.04,"end":5160.776,"text":"那這當然也事實上也是包含在原來的其他金目的世界主管機關的金融機構那麼這是一個部分那是不是就這個部分呢法務部或抒發部你們的看法金管會在嗎那麼應該這個部分是童副局長還是黃副局長可以說明來請這個是童副局長"},{"start":5163.135,"end":5174.157,"text":"主席還有各位委員好那稱儒委員剛才所指示的這個部分我們已經在104年就依照第18項的規定指定電子支付機構是洗錢防制法"},{"start":5175.171,"end":5181.676,"text":"議員郭國文等16人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5205.474,"end":5231.799,"text":"我沒有意見那麼請問在場委員那如果這個部分因為這是郭國文委員的版本那當然剛剛有黃委員提出這個部分我們如果還有一些思考的空間那我們可以在這裡先做個討論那麼這是一個部分那另外呢再包括大家所關心的融資性租賃之"},{"start":5232.859,"end":5244.355,"text":"事業還有提供虛擬資產的還有第三方支付的部分那我們看到在目前的國版的部分26OK"},{"start":5248.154,"end":5273.19,"text":"那郭板的26頁也有提到說第三方支付那因為這裡他是把它單獨列為一項就是在行政院板當中他除了辦理融資性租賃之事業那麼他這裡加上了及第三方支付提供者那等於是其實上他就不是金融機構但是是屬於非金融機構的"},{"start":5275.118,"end":5301.686,"text":"內同於融資性租賃的事業那他特別的把他跟虛擬資產服務提供者和第三方支付服務提供者呢明白的列出來這也是郭板的一些主張那請問金管會對這個部分的看法如何因為第三方支付目前你們並不是納管為金融機構但是有要求他做一些申報報告委員那個第三方支付是數位部是不是請數位部這邊開始請"},{"start":5310.152,"end":5338.985,"text":"蘇衛部說明就如我剛才說明的因為第三方支付已經納入洗房的洗房法的非金融事業級人員那他的洗房標準跟金融機構其實是一樣的其實原則上所有金融機構比如說他要做KYC內積內控然後可疑交易申報都要比照金融機構去做因為在洗房法裡面有明定那包含相關規定都跟金融機構是幾乎是一樣的以上所以我們認為是我們建議就是採院版就是不需要把第三方支付特別"},{"start":5339.625,"end":5363.024,"text":"列出來要不然的話未來如果有新型態的一些商業服務出現的話那可能就是每一個都期盼法都要列以上說明好了解那再三委員那這裡也做一個說明因為的確目前的院版他是用其他但是呢其實在這裡面如果把虛擬資產跟第三方支付加上其他都並列的話"},{"start":5363.624,"end":5392.702,"text":"那這裡面就有對於民眾所關心的虛擬資產和第三方支付呢比較有介入的意味而不是只是涵蓋的籠統的放在其他等於說如果只列虛擬資產或第三方支付有掛一落萬少了其他只列其他並沒有彰顯出虛擬資產跟第三方支付那如果把這兩個並列在這裡面呢因此啊這裡面對於鍋板的部分呢本席這邊有試著提出一個修正動議供大家參考就是用"},{"start":5394.363,"end":5410.3,"text":"這樣兩個並列的方式看大家覺得如何在那個修正動議第五條那個部分沒有那個看沒有我是先請在場委員參考如果認為有需要我們再提啦那個黃委員"},{"start":5411.809,"end":5428.31,"text":"所以我請問一下書發布的意思就是說你在其他裡面就喊掛這個了所以以後這個題他就可以無限擴張就對了我們百分之四想幫你限縮他就把他講清楚說明白"},{"start":5429.471,"end":5454.128,"text":"我們甚至希望說難聽點我們甚至希望第三方支付本來也應該視同為金融機構讓金管會來管其實你說法固管這個也很奇怪啊對啊你要不要試著把它推給金管會就好了我們會幫你的忙對你要不要試試看因為放進來就很清楚因為電子支付那第三方支付其實有規模的大小差異啦對如果把它動"},{"start":5455.493,"end":5469.672,"text":"講清楚第三方支付的定義很清楚就不會將來會有新興行業爭議爭議的問題那新興行業是另外的其他嘛我們的想法原來是這樣這樣會也會清楚然後我們更希望把第三方支付拿去給金管會"},{"start":5472.896,"end":5488.191,"text":"謝謝委員原來行政機關的立場還是支持院辦因為其實非金融事業或人員還是經由一定的指定程序所以現在現行法的第五條第四項已經有規定所以這部分我們還是建議支持院辦謝謝"},{"start":5490.533,"end":5506.88,"text":"主席我沒有堅持但是我還是覺得第三方制度這種事情應該是經管會管每次都出發部在管這件事情其實會造成這個監理跟洗房上面的差異我只是希望說這個立場我們希望經管會跟出發部這邊可以去協調將來應該是把它統籌一個單位來處理會比較好"},{"start":5511.343,"end":5535.436,"text":"好,那麼我不曉得其他委員的看法,那要不要因為這第五條,因為我們今天還進行了蠻順利的,那第五條給大家再一點時間思考,邊站保留,那我們往第六條推進,到後面我們再回過來看第三方支付跟虛擬資產,是不是要給它適當的規範強度,說不定看到後面的條文,它的規範強度已經足夠了,我們就不用在第五條裡面把它特別明列或增訂,好不好?"},{"start":5535.836,"end":5545.564,"text":"好那接下來我們看第六條第六條有行政院提案還有台灣民眾黨提案及郭國文委員提案那麼請問台灣民眾黨黃委員有沒有要做說明補充"},{"start":5546.598,"end":5572.339,"text":"好謝謝主席我想各位同仁以為因為這個案子我們一直希望說他是一個以洗錢防制為為重心的法案但是呢我們上次質詢的時候已經提過了我們感覺這次行政院版的洗房法他其實是有點幫金管會把一些該他自己去立專法的責任丟給洗房法丟給法務部也就是說你今天看到接下去的條文裡面很多都是"},{"start":5574.701,"end":5602.012,"text":"針對虛擬資產相關的管理方式那監管的方式不應該在洗房法這樣子這樣子的體力的法條裡面來幫監管會管他要管的對象所以我們希望說因為現在沒有母法所以沒有辦法沒有辦法管所以用洗房法來當個母法我也不反對但是我認為這個有必要將來應該是推回去給監管會另外成立專法把這些相關的管理規則怎麼樣上架什麼亂七八糟的這些管理"},{"start":5602.392,"end":5627.098,"text":"都不應該在洗房法上管那分級管理我們是同意的分級管理要進到法條裡面但是你有沒有登記有沒有裁罰這個都不應該是洗房法來幫他們處理的啦所以我具體建議就是說因為為了要有母法所以我們這一條我們不堅持但是我們希望它有落日條款幾年之內你儘管會要拿回去立專法把這些法條全部洗回去"},{"start":5627.598,"end":5637.358,"text":"否則你在洗錢防制法裡面幫你們做監管我覺得這點是有點不倫不類的。好謝謝黃委員是不是先請法務部再請監管會做說明來請法務部"},{"start":5639.195,"end":5661.165,"text":"我想如同剛才委員所講的齁以我們找到這一個洗方法可能會是很多執法的一個母法啦那以目前的狀況來講這樣的設計是有一點有一點我們是有點算是應付我們現在這個狀況啦所以希望委員能夠支持我們院辦"},{"start":5662.392,"end":5682.664,"text":"所以我的意見是我對這個急需要母法我們支持但我希望有個兩年的拖日條款請金管會拿回去做他自己該做的事這樣法務部同意嗎我覺得這樣的話比較合理啦幫你法務部你不應該在你的主管不然就把這個洗房法主管業別轉給金管會"},{"start":5684.985,"end":5706.839,"text":"委員這個部分我們尊重就是說我希望他兩年之內要回去把虛擬資產也好其他的這些執法的管理機制什麼撤銷登記廢紙這個部分應該在洗房法裡面什麼由中央主管機關定制那都本來就是應該金管會定的所以主席我我贊成現在有一個母法但是我希望給他六日條款等一下我會提一個求證動議"},{"start":5708.139,"end":5718.365,"text":"因為第六條的確是針對虛擬資產第三方支付我這邊是不是先請金管會說明我在本席這邊做一個建議來先請金管會"},{"start":5721.513,"end":5748.684,"text":"謝謝主席還有謝謝委員那這邊先說明一下那為什麼這一次會在那個洗房法裡面去引進這樣的登記制而且如果沒有登記就執行這個業務的話就會行政這個其實也是遵照非TAF非TAF他的一個指導原則非TAF的原則他提到說從事這樣的虛擬資產業務的不管是法人或是自然人他要求都要有登記的制度"},{"start":5749.464,"end":5752.945,"text":"議員郭國文等16人擬具 «洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案案 案 規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定規定"},{"start":5777.553,"end":5793.719,"text":"美國他也有在他的規定裡面規定說那個如果沒有登記的話就是做這個業務他也是有刑責的他對這些人員或是機構也都處以刑責的那另外的話跟委員這邊報告一下那"},{"start":5794.759,"end":5823.258,"text":"為什麼我們要在條文裡面特別去把這些屬於虛擬資產未來要管理的這些架構例如說上下架的審查機制或是資產分離保管等等這些事項要特別先在洗房法這邊訂當然未來如果有這種專法是當然也會訂進去但是就目前而言我們是檢視的結果這些項目是對於洗錢我們防制洗錢有特別的一個急迫性例如說上下"},{"start":5824.419,"end":5847.557,"text":"上下架的審查機制裡面的話我們知道說那目前的洗錢的三個三個階段包括處置分層還要整併這個處置階段就是他怎麼樣去把這個他的章錢把他進到我們的金融機構或是那個虛擬資產的這個事業來進行後續的這些洗錢那在處置階段他就很有可能用到這種"},{"start":5848.097,"end":5848.557,"text":"三）台灣三）台灣三）台灣三）台灣"},{"start":5870.063,"end":5895.979,"text":"好那麼因為今天的列席官員蠻多的話那請大家第一次發言的時候自我介紹一下哪個單位不然我們要請教是報告主席不好意思我自我介紹我是金管會政期局那副局長黃副委員我就跟主任確認認了因為我們剛剛有見了面主任說欸是嗎沒關係那個確定是我們黃副局長好再次跟您確認好那麼委員有沒有其他委員有意見來沈委員"},{"start":5903.767,"end":5917.035,"text":"這個我當然知道剛才黃委員所提的有關落日條款的這個建議當然這是一個我們在立法過程中運用立法技術來希望說儘管未來能夠讓這個實際上應該有"},{"start":5920.777,"end":5941.353,"text":"大家認為應該由金管會來主管的第三方支付的相關的這些主管單位能夠訂定專法來加以管制這個是對於第三方支付目前的管理上面的一個正本清源之道但是如果我們在立法上面我們把落日條款放進來"},{"start":5944.132,"end":5960.261,"text":"這個會不會到時候造成反而造這個你實現到了讓這條條款落日但是金管會那邊還是缺還是我們還是沒有成功的在財財財政委員會比金管會比金管會的立法反而會變成一個法律上面的一個"},{"start":5961.221,"end":5979.925,"text":"一個公裝洗啦所以我是我是建議說我們正本清源還是大家到財政委員會去逼金管會來趕快叮叮轉法不要把它列在不要在這個這個洗網法上面列一個落日條款到時候變成我們自己立法院在立法過程中自己卡死自己"},{"start":5981.099,"end":5994.669,"text":"謝謝省委員因為剛剛前條有個修正動議那這一條本來黃委員要提修正動議那我是建議還沒正式提案之前我們先印給大家參考因為有文字大家比較能夠理解那是不是請議事人員將剛剛第五條的擬修正動議跟第六條的擬修正動議先印給我們與會的委員參考一下"},{"start":5999.873,"end":6020.25,"text":"那因為剛剛第五條我們是說先暫保留大家思考一下那第六條呢我這邊是不是可以提議黃委員這邊思考如果說做修正動議有剛剛沈委員說的困擾的話我們也可以用附帶決議的方式行之啊那看看大家看看文字內容如果覺得文字內容以改以附帶決議的方式行之我們待會回頭來再處理好嗎"},{"start":6022.051,"end":6046.541,"text":"好那我們第六條比照第五條先暫保留那我們先將擬修正動議給大家參考那再考慮看是有修正動議或以這個附帶決的方式來為之好接下來我們看第七條來第七條呢是因為行政院提案那提案內容呢就是不予修訂本條未修訂那麼是不是我們就照"},{"start":6050.135,"end":6078.473,"text":"呃對不起我看第七條吼啊第七條有條次變更然後有其他的罰環的處罰規定那是不是我們大家看看第七條的部分是否有意見第七條吼在四十九頁的部分在那裡在這審判會那裡大家看看第四十九頁吼"},{"start":6079.639,"end":6107.933,"text":"到第五十頁的部分他是將條次變更然後呢將環環上限提高也增列了案次處罰的規定那如果沒有意見我們就照行政院提案通過好那麼接下來呢第八條那第八條有行政院提案那同樣的也是條次變更那同樣的也是將處罰的部分呢預修正提高"},{"start":6109.824,"end":6136.918,"text":"那請問各位委員對於行政院提案內容有無不同意見那如果沒有的話我們第八條就照行政院提案通過好謝謝"},{"start":6139.042,"end":6162.091,"text":"接下來我們第下一個欄位因為我們這裡說明一下因為台灣民眾黨黨團提案他並不是條次沒有超過二分之一所以不是全文修正所以他是以部分條文修訂的方式在條次上他有一個第七條之一那是不是這邊我們請黃委員針對民眾黨提案的第七條之一進行說明請"},{"start":6163.254,"end":6180.959,"text":"好謝謝主席我想這個主要是因為我們在財委會發現很多的包括虛擬資產業者或者是這些希望能夠跟我們的法務單位或者是檢調單位進行平台甚至虛擬資產跟銀行之間也沒有平台所以現在的問題就在於"},{"start":6182.199,"end":6182.939,"text":"五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":6211.208,"end":6223.158,"text":"不以做這樣技術性的規定的話我們希望說法務部這邊能夠儘速完成這個平台的建制那法條我們就不再堅持那希望說實質上有做到就好"},{"start":6224.155,"end":6245.049,"text":"好 謝謝歡迎說明大家可以參考我們的第53頁在民眾黨團提案說明當中他特別強調了擔心這個客戶是否列明各國的制裁名單是不是有洗錢等相關犯罪的前科那這個是屬於政府掌握的資料所以是建議構置這樣的平台是不是法務部先做一個回應"},{"start":6246.978,"end":6273.41,"text":"謝謝主席委員本部內網有所謂的公告制裁名單專區那DNFVP主管機關也會含情本部呢進行有五前科的四格性的審查那第二本部為了執法的需要目前已經跟其他部會虛擬資產交易所還有相關執法機關建立諸如向金融資料調取電子化平台KYC"},{"start":6274.37,"end":6296.829,"text":"資料線上調取平臺虛擬資產重大案件通報機制數位部並預計在113年6月底呢要供各執法機關線上使用第三方支付服務業虛擬帳號查詢平臺我想這些的平臺都是用來查詢相關的一些資料那至於監理部分的話"},{"start":6297.409,"end":6321.332,"text":"因為我們本部並不是金融機構那DNFBP的目的事業主管機關所以我們大概不是很方便凌駕在這些主管機關的就是建立一個大平台因為我們不是主要的不是目的主管機關那如果這些機關需要調取資料的話我們這些平台都會提供"},{"start":6322.273,"end":6345.556,"text":"大概是這個意思好謝謝好謝謝策長說明那麼請問黃委員對於剛剛這樣的說明內容就是說法務部不是建制平台但是他們內部的這些資料可以供其他的機關調取那這樣的機制是否您覺得可以用附帶決議的方式來具體要求好的如果這樣的話那我們的法條我們的條文本身用附帶決議的方式來提進行要求"},{"start":6347.25,"end":6372.16,"text":"那這個附帶訣的部分我們在尊重委員的提案那稍後再處理那第第九個藍刺就是民眾黨的第七條之一呢我們就不予增列好那麼接下來是第九條第九條有行政院的提案跟民眾黨團的提案在第十一條的部分那是不是我們請看第五十四頁那請問黃委員有沒有要做說明"},{"start":6379.192,"end":6405.22,"text":"好的我想這個也是我們希望說在國際合作上面的處理所以其實內容都是比照FATF的公告制定的那我們就這個部分其實跟院版的部分其實沒有什麼太大的差異我們認為說還是依照國際洗房組織的公告來做那當然院版的部分其實內容又比較完整那我們也都尊重好那麼法務部要不要做說明"},{"start":6406.121,"end":6423.246,"text":"沒有沒有吼好那麼第九條吼他在第二項的部分吼所謂的洗錢或知恐高風險國家或地區他有明白的列入下面三款一二三款那麼民眾黨的部分呢"},{"start":6423.706,"end":6443.463,"text":"他是在第二項就直接是依國際洗房組織的公告那剛剛黃委員也可以接受我們行政院提案以三款的方式來明白訂定那是我們在場委員第九條的部分我們依行政院提案來通過好同意同意好謝謝"},{"start":6445.185,"end":6472.284,"text":"那接下來我們看第10條第10條是行政院提案那它是條次變更那同時它也有在華凡上還有案次處罰上予以加強請問委員對於本案有無意見沒有黃委員這邊沒有好那我們第10條的部分就按行政院提案通過"},{"start":6473.933,"end":6498.668,"text":"好那接下來我們看第11條有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案第10條之一那是不是先請黃委員這邊就民眾黨提案做說明是我們大概也是針對他們所做的內容做一些完整的敘述那院版的部分其實也都還蠻明確的所以這兩邊我們原則上願意尊重院版"},{"start":6500.265,"end":6526.759,"text":"好,其他委員是否也覺得可以接受行政院提案?好,那我們第11條就依行政院提案通過。好,接下來第12條有行政院提案,那是條次變更。同時呢,它對於罰還跟案次處罰的規定予以增強。請問各位委員對於行政院提案有沒有其他的意見?"},{"start":6530.731,"end":6551.54,"text":"那沒有的話我們第二十二條案行政院提案通過接下來我們看第十三條十三條也是行政院提案內容同樣是條次變更那也是將罰還上限跟案次處罰的規定呢予以加強請問各位委員對於行政院提案內容是否有不同意見或補充請"},{"start":6552.58,"end":6579.338,"text":"沒有好那我們第13條呢就按行政院提案通過接下來看到第14條第14條有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案的第12條那是否黃委員要先進行說明好的我想也是一樣就是針對末路的部分那我們是著作文字修正那調整文字內容的話我們也可以尊重面板的部分"},{"start":6581.464,"end":6601.902,"text":"好謝謝黃委員那請問在場委員我們第14條部分是否依行政院提案通過同意好同意好接下來我們看第15條呃第15條是新增那這裡面呢是對於查扣的規定呢予以把他詳細規定那是不是法務部要進行說明第66頁"},{"start":6617.076,"end":6645.343,"text":"這個內容跟民眾黨的第12條之一內容是一樣就是保證金跟擔保金的用詞不同只有一個是用擔保金一個是用保證金行政院提案用保證金民眾黨提案用擔保金來市長謝謝主席我想我們希望能夠依照院版那黃委員在電話中等一下"},{"start":6647.182,"end":6671.711,"text":"那黃委員請問呃行政院版用保證金那民眾黨提案用擔保金是否接受行政院版的保證金沒意見好那請問站長加委員是否我們本案按照行政院提案通過同意好謝謝我們按照行政院提案通過接下來我們看到第16條哈16條呢是新增啊那麼是對於呃"},{"start":6674.393,"end":6689.768,"text":"剛剛的處分他的擔保跟假扣押的程序進行規定那本案只有行政院版那法務部要不要說明沒有沒有好那請問委員第16條按照行政院提案通過有意見"},{"start":6690.933,"end":6715.66,"text":"好那我們第16條呢就叫行政院提案通過接下來呢第17條也是行政院提案那麼也是新增這個部分呢是授予一些關於防制洗錢或打擊知恐的目的要予以分析那也可以內容呢在第二項呢可以跟其他國內外的相關機構分享"},{"start":6717.501,"end":6733.206,"text":"那最後第四項呢他的辦法呢是由法務部定制吼那這一點吶因為涉及到人民各自隱私有沒有可能做非目的外目的外之使用這個部分是不是可以請法務部來做說明"},{"start":6735.013,"end":6752.014,"text":"謝謝主席因為以往其實洗房處對這項工作也一直在推行可是所適用的法律大概都是屬於他們內部的規定那因為又牽扯到各自法的問題覺得這一個分析以及資料的調取"},{"start":6753.175,"end":6765.95,"text":"有一個法院的依據是比較好對於民眾的權益保護以及執法者他的法律上的地位會相對的比較有保障所以我們建議就是按照院版的把它明文化謝謝"},{"start":6768.097,"end":6784.943,"text":"好是那請問在場委員對於剛剛法務部的說明是因為涉及到人民的各自隱私非有法律規定的授權那無法進行處理所以因此希望能夠建立這個規定那在這裡我還是要提醒一下因為最後這個辦法還是由法務部定之"},{"start":6786.243,"end":6808.869,"text":"所以如果委員對於人民的人權或各自隱私的保障有什麼想法的話我們是不是就是尊重行政院提案那如果大家有覺得不足的地方可以用附帶訣的方式來予以補充可以嗎黃委員可以好那我們17條按照行政院提案通過那接下來我們看第18條"},{"start":6811.602,"end":6838.388,"text":"來18條呢目前也是行政院提案他是條次變更就這樣而已請問大家各位委員對於18條條次變更文字著作修正有沒有不同意見那如果沒有的話我們就按照行政院提案通過好接下來請看第19條那第19條呢有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨的提案第14條請問黃委員有沒有要做補充"},{"start":6844.647,"end":6865.198,"text":"七十二頁七十二頁的第十四條我們這邊是在特定犯罪達一億元以上的罰則是比原版的要重一些三年以上十年以下他們現在是六個月以上五年以下那五年以下我們認為說可能還是沒有辦法達到賀詞的作用所以我們提案是比較加重的"},{"start":6867.452,"end":6875.018,"text":"好 那個防護部要說明因為你們一般的話是比較重但是在特定的話相對於民眾黨版是比較輕來 次長請說明"},{"start":6878.183,"end":6906.451,"text":"因為原來的規定七年以下有期徒刑有時候會碰到他情節是比較輕微的那這個案子的話是完全沒辦法議科罰金所以對於可能判刑以後要入監有些情節是比較輕微的所以我們就希望說能夠在一億元這個未達一億元的話我們有一個六個月到五年以下他那個空間是留給法官有機會可以議科罰金不用"},{"start":6907.271,"end":6932.887,"text":"就是判那麼重所以我們就把他局局分開然後分開以後呢就變成說如果是在一億元已經超過一億元的話那當然就是從重來量刑那如果是還沒有到達一億元我們希望定是六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑給情節輕微的有一點機會我想大概立法的我們建議的話大概的用意是在這個地方"},{"start":6934.155,"end":6949.599,"text":"議長"},{"start":6949.895,"end":6978.917,"text":"體力上是表述方式不一樣啦我正在想說一億元以上怎麼會他是一億元以下一億元以下變輕對因為我們的想法是一億元以上就你看一年以上七年以下你判兩年以下還是有機會緩刑啊所以為什麼我們要定在三年以上讓他有緩刑的機會都沒有你都洗錢到一億了你還可以緩刑嗎你只要繳回錢現在國人最痛困的就是這些人只要繳回錢來他就不用坐牢"},{"start":6979.915,"end":7004.017,"text":"如果這個都已經確定你是洗錢到一億元以上的話還可以緩行這我想一般國人會沒有辦法接受所以我們才會把三年當成一個基準就是你訂到一億了你就沒有緩行的機會是來法務部這邊因為等於如果按照剛剛黃委員這樣說法的話如果以行政院的提案內容可能第一項前段要寫三年以上記念以下請回應"},{"start":7006.838,"end":7024.494,"text":"其實一年以上七年以下已經比原來的就重了。原來是七年以下那去年以下是有期徒刑以上就兩個月以上都可以判那現在已經規定說洗錢法的話一年以上七年以下我們覺得這樣的刑度應該是適當"},{"start":7028.177,"end":7028.557,"text":"議員郭國文等16人擬具"},{"start":7048.295,"end":7050.035,"text":"我們大概的意見是這樣。"},{"start":7073.55,"end":7073.71,"text":"議員郭國文"},{"start":7090.265,"end":7113.532,"text":"法官為什麽大家看到詐欺犯那一般有沒有他在開好車住豪宅然後繼續讓他交交錢就了事甚至可以緩刑這個是讓一般民眾沒有辦法接受所以也許這一次修成這樣如果再不行如果還是詐欺犯居高不下的話我想這個修法委員們也會持續把它加重好不好"},{"start":7113.772,"end":7142.575,"text":"好委員今天我們先這樣啊如果看你一年之內沒有表現表現的詐欺案沒有一億元以上的沒有下降的話我們就繼續加重好謝謝黃委員那是否其他委員也同意我們就依行政院提案先與通過好那麼其實呢這個在國外的虛幣交易所就有一個現在正在做了啊因為他繳了很多錢他做的行期就比較短才四個月好那麼我們第49條呢就照行政院提案通過"},{"start":7143.817,"end":7170.289,"text":"好那接下來呢我們請看第20條20條有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨第15條的部分在第76頁請問黃委員是不是要先就民眾黨團版做說明因為我覺得這個部分我們是把它分的比較比較比較細緻啦那但是院版它其實也大概有包括了所以對內容部分如果沒有特別的話我們院版的話也可以接受"},{"start":7171.345,"end":7194.318,"text":"好其他委員是否同意我們按照行政院版好那我們第20條按照行政院提案通過接下來請看第21條在第81頁那這是條次變更那做部分文字的修訂那請問各位委員是否我們第21條一行政院提案通過"},{"start":7196.817,"end":7211.92,"text":"好 同意齁 好 那我們21條一行政院提案通過接下來請看第22條 22條呢是有行政院提案以及台灣民眾黨團提案第15條之二在第82頁請問黃委員是不是要做補充"},{"start":7213.1,"end":7232.658,"text":"好這個可能要特別跟主席跟各位同仁補充就是我們的第六項跟第七項因為現在我們發生了所謂的警示賬戶或者是現在有一種叫告誡賬戶就是你可能是因為當了人頭變成告誡賬戶他所警示賬戶他是有被"},{"start":7233.599,"end":7250.872,"text":"有相關的警示跟解除的程序但是告誡賬戶目前沒有我們上次質詢的時候監管會表示說沒有所以我們特別把這些賬戶的不管是要監管或者是要警示或者是他因為已經查明清楚已經不起訴處分已經無罪了"},{"start":7251.332,"end":7277.083,"text":"那他要解除都把他具體的提出你應該定出一個相關的程序的做法所以我們在第六項第七項我們認為說這是解除現在實務上面目前法務部還有相關的單位沒有這些程序的問題我們希望定出一個程序的規範請他們盡速的定出相關的辦法以上好那麼請法務部就第六項第七項在第84頁的部分請做回應"},{"start":7281.124,"end":7287.229,"text":"台灣民眾黨團版的提案。第六項、第七項。好,對不起,第七項、第八項說錯了。84頁第七項、第八項。"},{"start":7296.602,"end":7314.341,"text":"行事不起訴處分的認定跟無正當理由交付提供賬戶而被裁處性質為行政處分的告誡兩者處理的事實類型不同那前者主要是個案事實為主觀具有"},{"start":7315.481,"end":7341.021,"text":"幫助詐欺或幫助洗錢的範例而構成幫助詐欺或幫助洗錢等罪嫌而裁處告誡是個案事實是處理主觀上明知自己交付提供帳戶或帳號然其交付提供不具正當理由的情形這兩個構成要件是不相同的並不是形式不起訴處分確定就代表"},{"start":7342.081,"end":7354.275,"text":"行為人交付提供帳戶帳號有正當的理由那告誡是行政處分應循術院行政訴訟途徑救濟而不是解除這是以本部的說明請教方委員請"},{"start":7357.74,"end":7385.234,"text":"我想這個我再補充一下為什麼會這樣做就是很多人他被告戒了但是他要等到拿到不起訴處分的時候已經超過了他訴願的期限他已經沒有救濟的機會然後他就一直被告戒著他告戒不是不能用是很難用然後他也沒辦法解除因為他已經超過了訴願期限他們已經沒有程序處理所以上次我質詢法務部的時候他們也兩手一攤說沒有規定程序"},{"start":7385.814,"end":7404.111,"text":"所以警示賬戶有解除的程序反而告誡賬戶沒有我們才希望說你訂出一個辦法你可以不要立立在這個法裡面但是你要訂出這個程序來對否則他連救濟的機會都沒有這是實務上碰到的我們實際上有相關陳情案件上次也問過法務部的"},{"start":7405.438,"end":7427.931,"text":"好 那麼法務部就針對黃委員的部分請回說明謝謝主席 包委員告誡他是行政處分沒有錯但是在書面的上面就有記載救濟的途徑那30天之內就可以提出訴願這個是不用的但是他拿到不起訴處分書已經超過你的30天我現在去訴願也沒用啊因為我沒有證據證明我是無辜的啊"},{"start":7429.772,"end":7454.353,"text":"對 這個跟不起訴處分是不是幫助詐欺或幫助洗錢這個是刑事調查是脫鉤的這個是認定他有沒有正當理由提供賬戶這是兩件事情所以並沒有去連結說一定要等到不起訴處分才能夠做這樣的糾結大部分的人都沒辦法證明自己我說我有正當理由你說沒有你已經被告誡了然後你已經受到法院權法院還沒判"},{"start":7454.993,"end":7478.821,"text":"你根本就麻布沒關係各讓我們來處理但是我覺得你們要訂出一個告誡賬戶如何解除的程序否則書院期間過了怎麼辦或者是他拿到證明的狀況怎麼辦我們不會無緣無故訂這個辦法啦因為就是因為碰到太多人跟你們解也解不解不開法務部可能不會不會細緻到處理這麼小的事情但是的確很多的民眾是受到侵害的"},{"start":7479.738,"end":7504.653,"text":"好那麼這個部分我是不是建議我們先暫時保留一下齁啊讓那個黃委員思考一下附帶決議的方式來那個陳委員主席我想不用保留啦齁今天剛剛我聽聽這個黃委員的意見他也並沒有堅持要把這個列在立法裡面但是他是他他他剛才所關注的事項確實在現在實務上面這個這個被列為這個高級高階帳戶的狀況齁確實是這個這個民眾在"},{"start":7509.796,"end":7527.41,"text":"在這個舉證上面很困難所以他必須等待這個法院的這個不起訴處分作為證明所以對你們來講這個在法理上是脫鉤的但是在實務上面他是他確實確實結合在一起所以這才是才是花為關注的地方那我是認為說這個用附帶決議"},{"start":7529.151,"end":7556.563,"text":"如果可以的話我們用附帶決議來要求法務部來就這個部分必須要訂定相關的辦法。那黃委員同意嗎?那附帶決議部分我們就先開始試擬啦那我是覺得法務部也可以就黃委員的意旨先試著試擬一下達到黃委員所關切的事實上民意機關作為人民協助人民在面對行政或司法上的追訴或處分的時候呢都會設法以民眾的利益來做幫他做爭取那我想"},{"start":7557.183,"end":7565.731,"text":"這樣的利益是相當好的那是不是請我們這一條呢我們如果沒有意見我們就按照行政院提案通過但是就請待會的附帶決議部門我們來擬一個附帶決議好來來羅委員"},{"start":7570.365,"end":7591.482,"text":"我剛剛也是就是跟著我們的黃珊珊委員的意見我覺得法務部這個確實有些個案已經出現這個狀況所以我們民意代表才會收到這些狀況所以因此我們作為政府機關不能對這些狀況是兩手一攤那即便不是在這個條文裡面處理其實也不能讓這種狀況就是讓民眾來承擔這種無法解決的問題"},{"start":7596.005,"end":7610.316,"text":"所以因此我覺得也同意附帶決議也就是說應該行政機關還是我覺得法務部要去研究出一個方式可以跟華山委員對接一下說到底什麼樣的狀況那用什麼樣的方式可以去把這個缺口把它補起來以上"},{"start":7611.65,"end":7636.524,"text":"好謝謝委員好那麼就請次長請我們同仁先試擬那我們第22條就依行政院提案通過那我們附帶決議稍後再處理現在已經有可能兩個或三個附帶決議擬議中好第23條有行政院提案及台灣民眾黨提案的第16條那麼這個請看第85頁那是不是黃委員這邊要做補充"},{"start":7639.546,"end":7663.671,"text":"這一條的部分我們看過以後可以接受院版的內容好請問站長委員我們是否就照行政院提案通過好同意那我們第23條案行政院提案通過接下來請看第24條第88頁有行政院提案及台灣民眾黨團提案的第17條那同樣的是不是先請黃委員進行補充"},{"start":7666.997,"end":7673.879,"text":"二十四條的部分這個部分我們修正以後我們也同意原版的內容"},{"start":7675.844,"end":7700.905,"text":"主席不好意思我再補充一下但是後面這一項可能希望能夠給他可能可以針對進去的部分就是金融機構跟指定非金融機構的從業人員這一條的部分可能我們會希望他比較完整一點然後對第四項"},{"start":7703.996,"end":7729.772,"text":"法務部針對那個民眾黨團提案的第四項金融機構會或指定非金融事業或人員基於洗錢防制目的而洩露或交付等等等等後面的這些相關事項由法務部定之這是由法律授權給法務部來定定請問法務部對於這第四項的看法沒關係先讓一點時間這個是寫得不錯"},{"start":7737.188,"end":7763.417,"text":"好謝謝主席金融機構及指定之非金融機事業或人員對於大額交易申報可疑申報可疑交易申報之免除業務上應保守祕密義務現行法第九條第二項第十條第二項就是為本部修正草案第十二條第二項第十三條第二項一定有明文"},{"start":7772.659,"end":7787.743,"text":"我們這個主要是因為我們發現就是銀行跟銀行之間他們可能銀行金控之間通報沒有問題現在是各銀行之間互相去照會或瞭解狀況的時候可能會有所謂的洩漏格子的問題所以有很多銀行不願意提供"},{"start":7788.603,"end":7804.29,"text":"協助或者是相關所以我剛才會講說第一那個平台很重要第二也要免除他們所謂泄密責任第三個也要授權他們有這樣子的通報的權利否則現在碰到的困難就是A銀行去問B銀行B銀行不會告訴他對"},{"start":7807.052,"end":7822.531,"text":"主席除了剛才有一個免責條款以外在打詐專法現在也是在大院修正裡面第八條第二項十三條有照會的機制可以因應在發現有可疑的資料銀行跟銀行之間是可以照會"},{"start":7823.332,"end":7837.505,"text":"市長可以把整部法條裡面跟洗房跟打炸的部分的照會包括剛剛講的平台跟通報機制給我一份完整的東西不然像散落在各個部門我們實在是每天東問西問都不一樣好嗎"},{"start":7839.008,"end":7868.668,"text":"如果你這邊有那邊也有那有照會的機制有免除他的限密責任的問題那這個我覺得就讓這些金融機構從業人員或者是相關巡禮資產從業人員他們有一個依循可循啊否則現在變成是這邊法條寫一個那邊法條寫一個你把整個完整的版本弄出來第二個平台就是這個目標嘛就是希望說大家去那個平台可以查到東西也不會被也不會負相關的所謂限密的責任那政府應該做這樣的溝通跟管道"},{"start":7869.088,"end":7889.346,"text":"我的目的只是這樣而已。好,來,次長能不能走中間。謝謝主席。那會後我們會整理好資料給委員長表。這樣子齁,我是不是做個先處理齁,因為這個第四項的部分,台灣民眾黨團的提案的第四項,原來他是補充行政院提案24條的相關保密的免責規定。對。"},{"start":7890.327,"end":7907.564,"text":"那這個在我們行政院提案後來條次修訂後的第12條跟第13條有部分的一些規定但是呢黃委員的意思是說這個部分因為他不能調次齁還是按照原來的調次啦如果真的要採納也這樣的一個原文也"},{"start":7908.765,"end":7931.755,"text":"沒有辦法完全照用是不是我們把第四項法務部先做個研究那把剛剛說的打詐專法的相關內容呢先背個文字給我們委員參考那我們這一個部分先暫保留那大家看到了內容之後我們再回過頭來看怎麼樣把它修得更完善一點好那麼第24條我們先暫保留啦那我接下來往下推進"},{"start":7933.713,"end":7956.852,"text":"請看第二十五條二十五條在八十九月到九十月有行政院提案及台灣民眾黨團提案的第十八條那也是一樣請黃委員做補充這部分只是文字上的調整我們尊重院版那因為是條次修正是不是各位委員我們同意第二十五條按照行政院提案通過"},{"start":7958.732,"end":7975.459,"text":"同意好同意好那我們就第25條照行政院提案通過那接下來請看第26條那有行政院提案他基本上是條次變更做部分文字修訂那請問各位委員第26條一行政院提案通過是我同意"},{"start":7978.373,"end":7998.753,"text":"好 同意吼 那我們第26條依行政院提案通過那麼第27條呢 有行政院提案只是條是變更內容並未修正是否我們就27條依行政院提案通過同意吼 好 那我們27條依行政院提案通過接下來請看第28條行政院提案以及"},{"start":8001.483,"end":8026.175,"text":"條色變更號以及台灣民眾黨黨團提案的第二十一條請看第九十三頁那是不是請黃委員做補充這一條我們只是增加了一個段數就是如果說依照這個條約或協定規定禁止或應符合一定要件使為特定目的外資用者不在此限有點在擴大一些他們的空間但是如果沒有的話我們也沒有意見尊重院辦"},{"start":8027.281,"end":8054.652,"text":"好那麼法務部那個因為這個但書規定第三項的後項但書規定後半段但書規定黃偉震不堅持說尊重行政院版那個包主席我們也有但書的規定我們那個草案也有你也有沒有但書規定對看到了好那麼如果委員同意的話我們第28條是否依行政院提案通過"},{"start":8056.104,"end":8076.547,"text":"同意啦齁那第28條我們依行政院提案通過接下來請看第29條29條呢是新增那麼有行政院提案及台灣民眾黨提案的第21條之一請看第96月97月那同樣的我們請黃委員先做補充這部分我們尊重院板"},{"start":8078.649,"end":8098.66,"text":"那我們包括其他委員我們第29條是否依行政院提案通過好同意我們第29條依行政院提案通過接下來我們替看第30條那30條呢他基本上他就是條次變更那做部分文字修訂那是否大家同意我們按照行政院提案來通過"},{"start":8100.063,"end":8111.914,"text":"同意我們第30條一行政院提案通過那第31條也一樣是行政院提案條之變更那幫日期呢做一個規定那請問各位委員是不是第31條好"},{"start":8116.226,"end":8135.864,"text":"第三十一條現在有一個擬修正的部分是我們黃委員這邊我們先給各位看一下這是目前還沒有修正動議是擬修正動議請大家參考是我們請議事人員應給大家看一下第三十一條那大家手上請黃委員說明"},{"start":8139.38,"end":8159.494,"text":"好各位同仁我想這個主要是我們認為說這次洗方法儘管會很偷懶就把它的應該定的專法的規範全部關在洗錢防制法裡面所以我們覺得這樣很不公平那第二個就是說虛擬資產業者跟第三方制服的監理他本來就需要有明文的法院依據不是用洗方法來當授權"},{"start":8160.795,"end":8161.536,"text":"五條及第六條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8191.536,"end":8205.225,"text":"對那因為這個本條修正動議的擬議是在我們之前第六條那目前我們第五條跟第六條是先暫保留剛剛意思是說是不是先請行政機關就第六條剛剛我們黃遠的意見能夠增強對於相關的執法的"},{"start":8212.827,"end":8235.312,"text":"落實啦那這個部分我是不是說我們這個擬修正動議我們第31條並同第6條待會我們一併看附帶決議的部分再來進行處理那是不是我們給行政機關一個時間將附帶決議先做個草擬那我們先休息那建議我們11點繼續可以嗎"},{"start":8238.919,"end":8246.819,"text":"好那我們先休息好那11點後我們繼續開會那先這段時間請行政機關就剛剛的委員意見先是你附帶決議請謝謝"},{"start":9940.455,"end":9941.236,"text":"好我們準備繼續開會了告解"},{"start":9979.148,"end":9984.452,"text":"好謝謝我們各位委員那也請我們列席機關代表先回座。"},{"start":9988.936,"end":10002.664,"text":"那主席在這邊先做一個更正齁剛剛我們在處理台灣民眾黨黨團提案增訂第七條之一那因為剛剛經過我們的意見呢應該是不予採納不是不予增訂齁我們就修正為不予採納好"},{"start":10004.665,"end":10027.166,"text":"那接下來我們回過頭來看到前面幾個暫保留的部分首先看到第五條那第五條剛剛的一個意見是說可以用附帶決議的方式來進行處理那現在附帶決議的擬議已經放在各位委員的桌上我個人先簽名那大概這個附帶決的內容我是就直接來跟"},{"start":10028.137,"end":10049.515,"text":"各位委員跟委員會做說明。附帶決議第五條第三方支付已由行政院110年8月18日依《洗房法》第五條第四項規定指定為同條第三項第五款之非金融事業或人員應適用《洗房法》第五條第二項及第四項之規定"},{"start":10050.941,"end":10077.959,"text":"那這裡呢這個互代捐內容我再說明一下由於剛剛的在處理的是處理第五條行政院提案以及郭國文委員提案當中第三方支付是否要放在第二項當中辦理融資性租賃提供虛擬資產服務就是本來第二項只有融資性租賃以及提供虛擬資產服務那"},{"start":10080.38,"end":10102.334,"text":"國版加入了第三方支付。由於第二項與第四項是一個並列的項目,如果第二項加入了第三方支付,第四項就要加入第三方支付。這三個都是屬於非金融事業。但是有關於非金融事業的部分,在同條款的第三項的第五款,"},{"start":10103.695,"end":10132.166,"text":"其他業務特性或交易形態亦為洗錢犯罪利用之事業或從業人員那依行政院的部分他已經有公布了第三方支付就是在第三項的第五款當中那就是屬於非金融機構非金融事業那他的地位是跟融資性租賃和虛擬資產服務是同樣的都是屬於非金融"},{"start":10133.946,"end":10147.993,"text":"機構裡面但是會容易涉及到洗錢的所以呢就應該比照融資性租賃和虛擬資產服務適用第二項跟第四項的相關規定所以呢這樣的附帶決議已經充分的將"},{"start":10148.793,"end":10164.54,"text":"第三方支付的性質等同於融資性服務,融資性租賃跟虛擬資產服務。」那這樣的一個內容,請問在黨委員覺得是否可以接受?那來,請,黃委員。"},{"start":10168.388,"end":10183.231,"text":"是稍微你的稍微是意思是說現在就變成郭國文版本的那個就不放進去了就沒有放進去但是呢用戶代決的指名第三方支付的性質啊他等同於是第二項的"},{"start":10183.832,"end":10207.377,"text":"融資性租賃及虛擬資產服務因為這兩者本來就不是金融機構但是呢他在處理上根據第四項的規定他是要受到這些相關的規範的大概是這樣子只是用附帶決的方式點名第三方支付的特質性質是屬於類同於融資性租賃和虛擬資產服務"},{"start":10209.377,"end":10209.537,"text":"來 那黃總章"},{"start":10224.608,"end":10249.485,"text":"在立法的體力上面竟然我們都已經決定要把第三方支付跟在第二項第四項提供虛擬資產服務的事業跟人員把它奉在同一個類別裡面進行規範我現在有點困惑的事情是說那為什麼不把它直接在法律明文就好了竟然要用附帶決議的方式繞了一個彎"},{"start":10251.658,"end":10275.419,"text":"對 這個在整個立法的體系上面是不是可以請主管機關稍微說明一下如果我們現在立法者我們在討論立法的過程當中已經很明確的要把它放在跟同一個類別加以規範那不放在法條裡面是用附帶決議的方式來加以處理那它實際上面的考慮到底是什麼"},{"start":10276.94,"end":10282.385,"text":"好那麼請書發部說明應該是在第二第五條第三項的部分請說明"},{"start":10287.854,"end":10315.731,"text":"拜託主席和委員因為非金融事業或人員原則上他的程序是由主管機關去申請向那個行政院去申請指定然後由行政院指定所以大概所有的過程都是這樣子那如果是因為未來如果有些新興的樣態的話要納入的話也是循這個程序來處理那我們因為行政院在110年110年的時候8月的時候已經指定他這個是屬於那種非金融事業所以我們是認為說既然是這樣子的話那"},{"start":10317.252,"end":10345.526,"text":"這個第五條條文裡面有提到非金融事業或人員本來就包含第三方支付所以不用再另外去寫那我們的意思是這樣就是未來如果處理方式是一致的話也是可以照這樣處理如果未來有新的話那就不用特別寫他本來就適用所以我們才會用那個附帶決議的方式來處理以上說明好謝謝請黃總召我們再進一步交換一件就是說其實如果按照你剛剛那樣的說明"},{"start":10346.482,"end":10352.507,"text":"那附帶決議其實不應該這樣寫因為沒有在第二項跟第四項的問題而是在你剛剛所講的"},{"start":10355.219,"end":10384.799,"text":"那個第三項的第五款的射程範圍內我的意思是說如果啦按照的是你剛剛那樣子的說法的話那反而不應該做這個附帶決議因為會把整個規範的結構變得非常的複雜也就是按照行政院目前的看法是屬於在第三項第五款那我們既然用附帶決議的方式又把它放在第二項跟第四項但是第二個部分是"},{"start":10386.52,"end":10404.075,"text":"在立法的體力上面有兩種狀況第一種狀況是我們直接把第三方支付放在法條當中那他就會成為一個法律條文的一部分也就是未來不管行政院他所指定的行業如何變動都會成為法律規範的內容"},{"start":10405.967,"end":10420.867,"text":"但是你如果現在是把他放在第三項第五款的話就會隨著行政院他的指定或不指定而去變動這個法條設成範圍所及所以我最後要請教的問題是說"},{"start":10422.469,"end":10451.331,"text":"在整個政策的選擇上把第三方支付明確的寫在法條當中不會因為行政院的指定或不指定而變動跟你們希望不要放在裡面保留給行政院未來指定或不指定彈性的空間我覺得講到最後啦大概就是這兩種立法模式上面的選擇是不是可以請主管機關再進一步的表達他們的立場"},{"start":10452.264,"end":10479.62,"text":"好那麼請書法部可以提醒一下因為目前的洗房法的第五條的原文的第二項就已經包含了融資性租賃以及虛擬通貨平台當初是用融資虛擬通貨平台現在叫做虛擬資產服務啦那因為原條文本身就已經把這兩個名列了那請書法部說明一下為什麼融資性"},{"start":10480.34,"end":10494.654,"text":"租賃及虛擬通貨平台在原條文當中他既不是認定為金融機構但又適用金融機構的規定他當時的立法考量以及現在你們將融資性租賃和虛擬"},{"start":10496.656,"end":10510.45,"text":"通貨平台或說虛擬資產服務之外所有的非金融機構你們都一概的用第三項的第五款去含設在這裡面請說明這個差別"},{"start":10513.318,"end":10538.513,"text":"主席還有委員那個第三方支付的部分有本部主管所以本部說明這部分就是我剛才講的那個邏輯原則上就是保留一個彈性那就是選擇就像黃委員講的是後面那個立法邏輯就是所有的新興的東西都可以依照第三項第五款來去做處理那至於為什麼虛擬資產或是融資性的租賃因為並非本部主管就可能要請法務部或是金管會來說明"},{"start":10540.419,"end":10564.427,"text":"來那個金管會能不能說明這個不對這個是法務部法務部先試著說明吧因為融資性租賃跟虛擬資產服務目前的主管歸屬是在金管會嗎那金管會說明一下當時洗房法把融資性租賃跟虛擬資產服務特別單獨在"},{"start":10566.909,"end":10584.877,"text":"第五條的第二項明定它非金融機構但又適用金融機構的規定那這兩個條文都沒有改變嗎那這個當時的立法的原意這兩項為什麼特別把它標明出來而不是用第三項第五款去規範"},{"start":10586.631,"end":10600.449,"text":"跟主席還有委員報告有關於榮租性租賃公司要把他納進來是當時我們這個版本在提交給大院的時候在大院裡面特別把它加進來的對是好那麼那個黃黃"},{"start":10602.782,"end":10630.064,"text":"主席,那虛擬資產的部分是因為那個非TAF他有這樣要求啦所以才在洗方法裡面把它加訂進去。OK,好所以洗方法原條文現行的原條文在第五條的第二項原來的融資性租賃及虛擬資產服務就是配合國際公約的規定。國際的規定我們就把它放進去了在原來的洗方法就放進去了那這一次是並沒有再額外的增訂那這次是透過第三"},{"start":10631.314,"end":10646.052,"text":"向的第五款去把其他非金融機構的有高風險的都用這個條次規定來規管,是這樣意思嗎?好,那訪問部有沒有要做補充?沒有,尊重。好,請黃總召。"},{"start":10649.808,"end":10677.542,"text":"其實剛剛行政部門把在這兩種立法模式上面的選擇我想說明的很清楚那我只是要希望點出來說就是說過去兩次其實在健心減肝的論壇上面對於在強化行政管制的部分其實具體有點出來的就是包括了我們現在所講的虛擬資產跟第三方的支付"},{"start":10678.522,"end":10698.633,"text":"因此如果在政策的立場上面各個黨團的委員跟行政部門都同意把第三方支付給放進去的話那其實我覺得在洗錢防制法這一次的修正當中把它明確的在第二項跟第四項把它並列事實上是一個比較好的立法模式"},{"start":10701.391,"end":10724.757,"text":"好那麼在場因為這個附帶決議是擬議啦好意思是說如果因為剛剛第五條的部分大家覺得三支的角色剛剛經過說明是在同條文的第三項第五款其他經過指定的部分那指定的程序也已經在附帶決議當中表明他應該未來在管理上是一樣是"},{"start":10725.997,"end":10753.942,"text":"用第二項及第三項的規定類同於融資性租賃及虛擬資產服務的方式來規管那請問在場委員對於第五條的部分依行政院提案然後我們附帶這個決議的方法的處理上有意見是不是我們也請那個吳昭偉有沒有什麼特別看法目前都還尊重大家的想法那個省委員請"},{"start":10758.21,"end":10764.806,"text":"我想這個剛才我們這個金管會這邊大概講的有說明的蠻清楚就是說"},{"start":10766.061,"end":10787.111,"text":"因為我們現在目前在這樣方式確實如剛才黃總召所講的齁就是他他我們有有這樣子有列舉式的把這個這個融資性租賃事業還有這個虛擬資產服務齁這個有把它列舉出來那現在大家的爭執就是說這個第三方支付是不是應該也同時列舉"},{"start":10788.513,"end":10798.624,"text":"列舉在上面那在在其他的新興行業齁再用這個這個未來的這個第五款來處理啦齁第一那這個我"},{"start":10800.734,"end":10829.975,"text":"那剛才也說明說那為什麼只列舉這兩樣為什麼其他的我們大家其他關心不知道第三方支付這個確實在現在的洗錢防制上面變成一個很重要的大家也認為是一個很重要的一個關鍵那這個金管會的說明是說它是完全就是按照FATF的你們就是按照FATF因為FATF上面就把這兩項列舉出來所以我們就要依照FATF的這個方式來列舉在洗錢防制法上面那我覺得這個部分其實在"},{"start":10831.294,"end":10844.759,"text":"在我這樣一個早上剛剛從前面討論過一次那後現在回頭保留回頭再討論之後我想還是同樣的問題就是說其實大家都關注都認為說第三方支付確實現在應該要列入管制"},{"start":10846.536,"end":10869.688,"text":"我們行政院提的願版他們比較傾向於說因為為了因應未來可能還有很多新興的這些新興的這些非金融的這樣子的相關的這些這些業別都可能要納入或都有可能會成為這個洗錢防制的一些新興的一些重要的行業所以他們是認為說"},{"start":10872.129,"end":10885.354,"text":"他們也沒有說不宜啦他們只是說他們覺得說這樣子列舉可能未來任何再有這種新興的這種這種行業他就我們是不是立法就一直要把他列舉那這個其實也不是什麼"},{"start":10886.394,"end":10910.094,"text":"大反對的理由。我覺得這其實就很簡單的一個選擇在我們是不是如果大家有共識就是說看尊重行政院版本大家有沒有共識那如果大家覺得說還是應該要列入比較好那我們是不是就把這個條文保留到政黨協商那大家最後還是一個其實這最後還是一個立法技術的選擇而已"},{"start":10913.614,"end":10933.042,"text":"來 謝謝請吳督昭委我是建議就是說這應該是保留然後給大家一點時間再去討論一下因為我還是覺得對於現在要主要我們這一次提這個主要是要打擊是詐騙嘛但是做任何限制跟那個市場的市場的這個機制上面我覺得還是要達到一個平衡啦"},{"start":10933.562,"end":10946.877,"text":"告告度的限制其實有時候會不會對國家經濟發展會有一個風險這也是一個問題所以給我們一點時間然後我們去了解然後在那個我們協商的時候我們提出來然後找到一個對國人最最好的那個那個標準點好"},{"start":10949.199,"end":10977.126,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝吳昭偉來謝謝我們來請莊委員謝謝昭偉我是不是再來就教一下啦因為我剛剛好在記者會啊也沒有聽得很清楚啦你們到底是不把第三方支付列進來你們最重要的想法是什麼報告委員齁不是不列不是不列進來是110年的時候已經行政院公告他就是屬於非金融機構也是已經按照原來的規範在管制的"},{"start":10978.61,"end":10992.852,"text":"已經有了已經有了如果今天把它列到第二項的話那跟原來的已經公告的那個又不合了那可能是照程序的話可能那個部分的指定命令又有問題了是不是"},{"start":10996.187,"end":11017.096,"text":"對因為已經公告他其實已經受規範了那現在只是特別的要把他拿出來第二項放在這個適用的這個部分那跟原來認定他是第三項的第第五第五款的是又變得不一樣了我們現在已經指定了已經行政院110年就已經指定他是第三項的其他的"},{"start":11018.226,"end":11041.857,"text":"已經已經指定了對對對已經第一現在已經有規範了要不要把他特別抽出來那因為因為包委現在新興的一個一個服務行業非常的多那你你現在列上去如果萬一明年又有一個新興行業出來我們又要回過頭來檢討說這第四個要不要也再放進來好理理理理"},{"start":11045.512,"end":11061.393,"text":"所以主席我想爭取一下那個中間這邊因為他剛剛在說明的很清楚嘛就行政院110年就已經很清楚的把第三方支付已經很清楚的定義是非金融事業或人員嘛所以"},{"start":11062.745,"end":11068.568,"text":"我剛提的也是這個啊就是我說還是保留大家再討論一下因為我剛有講到嘛一個是你市場的運作一個是對於國人的保護嘛兩個要找到一個平衡點"},{"start":11088.103,"end":11113.386,"text":"因為你先我的想法是這樣啦所以我說還是希望說給一點時間讓我們大家再研究一下然後再討論好那這樣子啦齁那因為齁這裡面涉及到問題齁其實呢按照原來的我們這個本齁這一本的第23頁原來行政院提案的立法說明在第4點的部分已經寫到了剛剛說的好大家可以參考第22頁"},{"start":11114.827,"end":11135.363,"text":"他說指定第三方支付服務業為第三項第五款之非金融事業或人員那這裡的非金融事業或人員如果是放在第三項第五款那他跟第一項的金融機構或是第二項的融資性租賃或虛擬"},{"start":11137.168,"end":11158.607,"text":"自產服務呢他主要的差異會在後面的第13條那因為如果你是金融機構或是適用金融機構的規定的他的罰則比較重那如果你不是第一項或第二項要適用金融機構的處罰規定的你是用第三項第五款"},{"start":11159.548,"end":11188.487,"text":"的這個其他非金融事業的人員好那麼就會進入到不同的處罰的類別啦那這個部分的我想剛剛已經有委員提議好既然事關產業的發展和我們國人好在這個防詐上我們希望杜絕這些漏洞那我們就把這個部分保留那我們在委員會協商的時候我們再進行處理好不好好那我們第第五條我們就保留"},{"start":11190.068,"end":11200.71,"text":"那接下來大家手上還有一個已經發給大家的附帶決議在哪裡?簽完了嗎?這第幾條?還沒發嗎?請發給大家。就剛剛那個第22條還是24條?22條的附帶決議請大家看一下。發給大家。我這邊也要一份。"},{"start":11222.162,"end":11246.892,"text":"等一下主席好來請我們第六條不是可以把好來第六條因為我們第六條因為還在處理我們先把剛剛的第二十二條他比較明確就是屬於告誡的程序的部分有這樣的一個附帶決議那是不是我很快的就宣讀一現行洗錢防制法第十五條之二規定警方對於無正當理由交付提供賬戶賬號者"},{"start":11249.033,"end":11273.666,"text":"應與告誡依同條第六項授權執法規定受告誡者帳戶帳號功能受限或停止關閉。三）開執法規定於一一三年三月一日施行因部分受告誡者不按法律程序未能及時提起訴願或物以虛待刑事不起訴處分才能舉證自己並非無正當理由交付提供帳戶帳號"},{"start":11275.487,"end":11302.771,"text":"以致於告誡處分確定而帳戶帳號功能受限制為避免此等情形請法務部與內政部警政署針對性質為行政處分之告誡研擬相關救濟程序並加強宣導相關行政救濟程序並於告誡處分書以明顯可知之方式標明相關行政救濟程序及告誡效果於當面交付受告誡者情形得以延遲告知相關程序"},{"start":11303.371,"end":11303.551,"text":"議員郭國文等16人擬具"},{"start":11327.247,"end":11338.871,"text":"主席因為這個附帶決議我剛剛跟法務部討論了很久他們還是認為說其實他們不可能再做另外一個程序那我們還是希望他們去研議一個可能怎麼樣讓民眾可以救濟雖然這個時間從去年"},{"start":11342.392,"end":11370.408,"text":"通過以後到今年3月1號以前的可能會受到這個影響但是我還是認為說民眾的權益還是要保障雖然只是演繹程序上面我覺得還是要有我們今天這個立場表達我們還是希望說將來不管是任何的行政處分都需要宣導而不是讓人家發生問題之後再跑回來我覺得這才是政府部門可能每一個程序都應該在事先就要做好我們現在只是亡羊補牢而已"},{"start":11371.377,"end":11389.022,"text":"好謝謝黃珊珊委員的極力爭取我們一樣的口頭補充我們也是會在我們會議記錄當中會被記載好那麼請問這個附帶結我們就通過了來那我們現在處理下一個我們下一個是有24條因為第6條跟第31條的保留情況是要並同處理我們先看24條20條暫保留當時是提到了台灣民眾黨團的第四項"},{"start":11398.425,"end":11420.713,"text":"是否可以大家請參照88頁跟89頁這個第四項有無可能將這個保密義務免責的規定能夠並同其他的打詐專法予以一致性的規範那這個部分目前有可能在這麼短的時間內法務部有辦法做出一個整合的意見嗎還是你們要更長的時間還是"},{"start":11425.472,"end":11451.493,"text":"拜託主席剛才我們是建議會後我們把資料整理好好那那沒關係啦那這主席在這邊證明大家是不是我們這個也保留因為既然剛剛已經有第第五條齁我們保留委員會後再來協商了嘛是不是我們第二十四條也保留做協商好不好可以嗎好那我們二十四條齁我們保留協商齁"},{"start":11453.234,"end":11458.343,"text":"好那現在處理第六條跟第31條的部分那法務部這邊剛剛你們討論的結果有什麼樣的看法?"},{"start":11467.877,"end":11497.04,"text":"對就是落日條款的問題因為我這樣說明一下因為謝謝我們黃委員不斷的提醒那由於呢這個部分是在金管會在財政委員會的部分那法務部會擔心說我們在司法法制委員會在審洗房法的時候那去做出一個決議去要求金管會可能對於財政委員會的執掌上似乎有點不夠尊重"},{"start":11497.66,"end":11517.456,"text":"所以這個部分是不是我們今天非常謝謝黃委員特別從財政委員會過來給我們很多的指導那黃委員這個部分是不是我們可以用什麼方法讓未來金管會在財政委員會的部分有辦法透過財委會的要求去形成一個更具體的做法"},{"start":11520.687,"end":11548.323,"text":"這個主席還有各位同仁我們主要是我在可能很多同仁剛剛才到為什麼我們要提這個法的這個修正的意見就是洗錢防制法他應該規範的是洗錢的行為而不是洗錢的相關的業別的管理監管那我個人覺得金管會非常的偷懶他把他們對於虛擬資產應該做的相關的監管全部塞到洗錢防制法"},{"start":11549.483,"end":11572.478,"text":"這一條是我認為他們應該要正本清源將來應該要回歸到金管會另外訂立相關虛擬資產管理的專法而不是把因為洗錢防制法不可能去幫金管會管他們這些虛擬業者要怎麼登記怎麼登錄怎麼處罰都不應該是在洗錢防制法裡面但是為了打詐或者是洗房所以我們勉強讓他立了這個所謂的"},{"start":11576.48,"end":11592.562,"text":"把洗錢防制法當成母法讓他盡快的通過來做管理有關洗錢的行為但是我還是認為資產虛擬資產業者的監理跟管理必須要另訂法令但我也同意說司法法制委員會做決議要求金管會的話可能"},{"start":11592.942,"end":11608.532,"text":"他們回去大概才會委員也會很有意見但是這個部分我認為還是應該今天的同仁在現場我希望你們就是將來要針對虛擬專法的草案架構這些都進度都必須要有一定的回報"},{"start":11609.392,"end":11629.56,"text":"好至少不管是像財務會報告或者是像司法法治委員會這邊的報告因為你將來這個洗錢防治法主管業還是法務部很奇怪了所以我還是認為說這個部分我希望他有附帶決議如果沒有的話可能他們回去又東西又擺著不敢對"},{"start":11631.038,"end":11649.668,"text":"在決議我們金管會在場的兩位副局長有沒有什麼方法我們因為這也是尊重財政委員會我們今天司法制委員會在審查洗房法的時候做出一個決議要求金管會就財委會督導金管會的業務範圍內關於虛擬資產要如何納管歸管我們怎麼樣去拿捏那個分際有沒有兩位副局長有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":11659.127,"end":11678.223,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝黃委員這邊對我們的鞭策我想我們這回虛心的就講對於說未來這個虛擬資產在怎麼管理我想我們一定會依照委員這邊的指示我們會另外再去跟財委會這邊來報告怎麼樣去對這樣一個新興的產業去做監理這樣子以上"},{"start":11684.158,"end":11712.62,"text":"好 那麼因為我現在主席台這邊有一份擬議那我想我們就很大家請各位看一下在我們司法制委員會可以決定的範圍內做出一個整適度的附帶決議那同時也尊重財委會未來他們在審查相關法案或對於他們的督導機關的要求上不要去侵犯到我們財委會的一個範圍好不好這個擬議請大家看一下請印給大家等個一分鐘就好了"},{"start":11713.291,"end":11740.2,"text":"那因為這個部分的如果處理的好我們就第六條跟第三條就處理來請三委員我趁這個主席在處理這個硬的時間大概大概說就我我完全同意黃先生委員剛剛所講的這些內容就有關這個虛擬資產的管理這些確實是金管會應該要做的法令那訂定在洗錢防制法裡面現在看起來就是一個立法上面的便宜形式這是我們先把先把這些相關業別的管理的這些"},{"start":11741.36,"end":11765.677,"text":"其實這些什麼登記登錄等等這些怎麼會是法務部主管那這個未來一定是要回到金管會這我們都完全同意但是我個人跟黃三偉認識不遠我認為如果訂定落日條款就是最最不好的處理方式的因為萬一到時候落日條款實現到了結果"},{"start":11766.337,"end":11780.297,"text":"禁管會還是沒有做相關的專法訂定那就整個這邊又變成空窗期了所以我是我個人是是也是希望說我們是不是就是今天透過我們等一下看看附帶決議的內容能夠能夠要求經管會"},{"start":11781.36,"end":11809.101,"text":"好那我們很快看一下附帶決議內容有鑒於虛擬資產業者之監理應以專法為之將虛擬資產業者之監理建基於洗錢防制法上有違洗錢防制法之體例為促進我國虛擬資產業界之發展建立虛擬資產業者之監理法之架構原要求經管會針對虛擬資產專法草案之架構內容草案審議進度草案擬具過程每六個月向立法院提出報告"},{"start":11810.001,"end":11828.5,"text":"制草案提出這個就是這個大家看看文字上看主管機關你們覺得我們也尊重到財政委員會的權責我們自己的司法法政委員的權限你們看一下這裡面就是定期向立法院報告那"},{"start":11829.605,"end":11851.626,"text":"如果也跟先華委員也提議如果說要向立法院提出報告的話恐怕我們這個要送到院會去就是連同我們的法案因為我們如果是要到立法院報告的程式我們就要送院會了今晚會這邊你們看一下這樣內容"},{"start":11856.5,"end":11871.618,"text":"就是剛剛主席這邊提到的如果說跟立法院報告的話會成績會拉那麼高是不是我們這邊先先先把他改成向立法院財政委員會這樣子那我們設法法這決定請他們向財政委員報告"},{"start":11875.327,"end":11885.849,"text":"我是建議每六個月鄉立法院相關委員會提出報告,讓他們有一個空間這樣。好,大家看一下鄉立法院相關委員會。然後我也附議一下剛剛發會委員所提的,我基本上支持這個附帶決議,未來用一個專法來處理虛擬資產業者相關的管理監理的事項,然後我們也定定的期程,然後相關委員會我們都可以follow你們的進度。"},{"start":11902.632,"end":11917.685,"text":"所以這樣的話應該是我們未來就是在相關委員會我相信珊珊姐一定在財政會一直push push這樣一直watch你們那所以在那個落日條款的部分確實是應當要去審酌要不要把它放進來啦既然有這樣一個附帶決議來共同來約束來督促的話所以"},{"start":11923.567,"end":11943.135,"text":"最後那個是不是看黃山委員同不同意最後一個落日的部分來來把他拿掉請教黃委員如果這個附帶決議可以完成的話其實我們目的就是希望你多出他們做專法當然那個落日條款是最強的啦但是如果可以的話我希望這個至少附帶決議要出去好"},{"start":11944.055,"end":11969.522,"text":"來那個吳趙偉我這邊也是支持就有關那個虛擬資產的部分應該是要用專法來處理那我這邊是蠻認同那個黃珊珊委員的想法那其實這一塊不只應該要做應該還是要趕快做因為這已經落後太多那這段時間因為這些虛擬資產無法可管所以在法院判決上面其實有些案子他因為這樣判無罪然後"},{"start":11970.302,"end":11997.062,"text":"然後那個那個反而造成社會上面的一些風波因為他們不了解說這個判決判無罪的理由其實是源自於我們無法可管那他有時候會去回過頭去認為說是司法在包庇包庇這些那些這些業者或是犯罪犯罪集團所以我還是認為說我蠻支持黃珊珊的那委員的這個想法謝謝好那聽起來各位都蠻認同的那我最後呢主席這邊那個金管會這邊"},{"start":12002.212,"end":12023.704,"text":"議長請就是有關於這個就是第一行就是說虛擬資產的監理以專法為之那因為到底要不要專法其實我們也還要再跟司法跟財政委員會委員在多方的溝通這邊如果直接在這邊就把它定成說一定要立專法"},{"start":12025.209,"end":12039.872,"text":"是否定專法?因言義以專法為之。好不好?因言義以...那個第一句有介於虛擬資產業者之監理因言義以專法為之。好不好?好。好啊這樣子。"},{"start":12040.595,"end":12062.667,"text":"再來還有一個人簽名再簽一下好那我們就這樣子先第一行因言義以專法為之因言義再以前面加個言義第二個呢那個剛剛的是每六個月向立法院相關委員會提出報告這第二個修正第三個修正的那個自草案提出又放在"},{"start":12064.147,"end":12090.918,"text":"與委端委具比較奇怪我們是不是把他這樣在草案提出前放在那個逗點的後面每六個月向立法院提出相關委員提出報告好不好在草案提出前每六個月向立法院相關委員會提出報告句號那這樣的話就看起來文字上可能比較OK好那這樣他簽了嘛好那這樣就再宣讀一次嗎給大家簽一下給委員會簽名一下"},{"start":12093.004,"end":12118.486,"text":"三位委員因為黃珊珊委員不是本委員委員所以我們要請本委員委員簽名好謝謝謝謝哇我們這個各黨團都簽了謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員特別從財政委員來給我們來這樣就好了那個吳總吳昭偉我這邊再念一次很快的念一次"},{"start":12120.046,"end":12123.989,"text":"好那待會委員要補簽也可以齁來有鑒於虛擬資產業者之監理應延逸以專法為之"},{"start":12134.382,"end":12156.333,"text":"並將虛擬資產業者之監理建基於洗錢防制法上有違洗錢防制法之體力為促進我國虛擬資產業界之發展建立虛擬資產業者之監理法之架構原要求金管會針對虛擬資產專法草案之架構內容草案審議進度草案擬具過程在草案提出前每六個月向立法院相關委員會提出報告"},{"start":12157.213,"end":12175.295,"text":"好,那提案人就請各位委員來參與。那這個負債決定我們就這樣通過,OK嗎?好,謝謝我們負債提案的修正草案通過。那我們第六條跟第31條是不是我們就照行政...報告主席,那最後面那個自草案提出這幾個字是不是也還保留著?"},{"start":12177.148,"end":12203.935,"text":"在草案提出前每6個月每6個月這樣比較好在草案提出前嘛每6個月你就要做嘛如果草案提出就不用了那包括主委包括包主席那個如果是前面的第一行只是研議專法齁那我是不是建議在第四行的地方對於虛擬資產對於研議這邊虛擬資產專法前面是不是再加個研議好不好因為這樣子前後才比較好針對研議虛擬專產對"},{"start":12207.236,"end":12227.741,"text":"針對研議是不是對原要求金管會針對研議是不是對好研議好研議加兩個地方齁一個在第一行的因研議以專法為之那在第四行針對研議虛擬資產專法好OK好那麼我們委員同意的話我們就修正後的章案通過"},{"start":12228.683,"end":12250.3,"text":"好謝謝那接下來呢主席這邊就確認一下是否第六條我們就照行政院提案通過以及第31條也照行政院提案通過好第六條照行政院提案通過沒問題第31條照行政院提案通過好那今天呢我們還有哪一條還沒處理都處理了那個主席不好意思來總召黃總召"},{"start":12253.922,"end":12263.908,"text":"我要請行政部門回去看你們行政院院版第19條的規定。請看第72頁。"},{"start":12278.956,"end":12290.976,"text":"所以我們當然有討論過沒關係請黃總長沒關係因為剛剛我有跟那個三三商量過啊這個跟有關於打詐賺法兩者之間的接軌配合必須要把它"},{"start":12292.373,"end":12312.406,"text":"說就清楚因為在打詐專法裡面針對有關於犯339之事如果是一千萬以上的話他的法定刑其實就已經是三年以上十年以下有期徒刑這個是目前我們看到行政院院板所看出來的結果那"},{"start":12313.519,"end":12326.924,"text":"之所以要在處理第19條的規定有兩個層次的問題一個是立法解釋的問題一個是行度調整的問題我們先處理立法解釋的問題"},{"start":12328.922,"end":12353.237,"text":"我單純的齁我先不處理刑度的問題我們單純的看目前行政院院板洗錢的財務或財產上利益如果超過一億的話你們目前是回到本文就是一上西下的處理嘛好在解釋上洗錢的財務或財產上的利益有沒有達到一億"},{"start":12354.438,"end":12382.537,"text":"切割的概念跟切割的時間點指的是什麼因為洗錢它其實是一個不斷接續不斷接續的行為所以你們在這邊有答一億以上跟沒有答一億是透過刑法上面一行為的概念來加以解釋嗎那我為什麼會特別把這件事情講出來是因為"},{"start":12383.698,"end":12397.899,"text":"在行政院版的打詐專法裡面我們針對詐欺不法的金額按照不同的金額去設定不同的法定型這樣的立法設計我是贊成的"},{"start":12398.82,"end":12423.421,"text":"那同時這也是非常多的被害者團體他們共同的心聲跟訴求不管是我們黨團自己辦的公聽會那或者是說包括了去行政警察局調查局那乃至於在建基金錢改的論壇上面大家所提出來的看法都是這個樣子的但是我要請法務部注意的事情是說在打詐專法裡面對於怎麼樣去計算"},{"start":12427.703,"end":12432.009,"text":"怎麼樣去計算因為在打詐專法裡面你們拉高刑度的門檻是一千萬"},{"start":12433.636,"end":12457.761,"text":"在立法理由裡面有說他是針對同一個行為或者是接續那或者是針對不同的被害人他是同一個行為造成多數人受害的時候然後以那個去劃定所謂刑法上面一行為的概念來去作為區分的基準"},{"start":12458.821,"end":12473.047,"text":"但是在你們現在所提出的洗房法裡面在條文裡面當然沒有辦法去做這樣子的設定但是跟在行政院版的打詐專法不一樣的事情是說行政院版的打詐專法對"},{"start":12474.864,"end":12498.317,"text":"有沒有超過一千萬的這件事情是如何在定義的在立法理由當中是有說明的但是在你們目前所提出的洗房法當中我先姑且不論那個刑度贊成或者是不贊成因為老實說就刑度的部分跟打詐專法跟打著詐專法就是詐欺得到的金額"},{"start":12499.642,"end":12512.089,"text":"提高的刑度跟在這一次洗房法當中你們門檻是一次就放一億嘛然後打造專法是一千萬你拉到一億"},{"start":12513.69,"end":12528.469,"text":"我必須要老實講論其實際的法定型其實並沒有提高你們事實上是在做法定型往下拉的工作也就是沒有滿一億的話你是用六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑來加以規範那"},{"start":12530.131,"end":12547.206,"text":"如果這一次我們針對要有效打擊詐欺犯罪的這一件事情我們在現實上面洗房法所進行的方向是在做刑度的實質減輕是在做刑度的實質減輕而不是加重"},{"start":12548.067,"end":12574.525,"text":"而跟打詐專法那一邊所要進行的立法方向是會按照被害的金額再去加重進行我必須要老實講行政院所提出來的洗房法跟打詐專法針對在面對詐騙以及洗錢前置犯罪跟後續的洗錢行為上面在立法的思維上面跟政策上面完全是背道而馳"},{"start":12575.666,"end":12590.935,"text":"所以這有兩個層次的問題第一個層次的問題是說針對跨越一定的金額今天不管我們把它設定的是一億還是一千萬你們在這邊的解釋是不是跟打詐專法所適用的概念一樣"},{"start":12592.195,"end":12617.358,"text":"還是你們所適用的是證券交易法裡面的概念因為證券交易法針對有關於證券詐欺的行為超過一以上的他也有加重期刑的規定你們在計算那個不法的利益的時候你們所用的刑法的概念到底是什麼因為這個一定會去影響到事後法院的裁判也就是你要怎麼去計算"},{"start":12618.644,"end":12632.955,"text":"是好幾個一億以下的行為還是把它看成是一個一億以上的行為這個在法律的適用上會產生非常劇烈的非常劇烈的差別那因此"},{"start":12633.772,"end":12652.609,"text":"我理解在法條上面的規範沒有辦法進行這樣子清楚的定義這個大家都理解因為在法律構成要件的設定上的時候本來就含有一定的不確定法律概念在裡面必須要透過解釋跟事後司法的裁判力但無論如何"},{"start":12654.261,"end":12676.368,"text":"你們現在心裡面所想的到底是怎麼算是按照洗房法在立法理由當沒有對不起是按照打詐專法在立法理由當中那樣子計算的基準還是按照目前在證券交易法裡面實務上面累積那種計算的基準在立法理由當中可能要把它寫清楚"},{"start":12677.068,"end":12703.451,"text":"那第二個就有關於法定型的部分因為在這一次洗房法裡面老師說針對不同被害金額你們在劃分的時候我們看到整個大的趨勢下是刑度的減低跟在打詐專法裡面我們希望被害金額增加的時候是往重的方向去前進兩者之間的方向是不一樣的那因此就這個部分是不是可以請法務部再說明一下"},{"start":12706.288,"end":12728.522,"text":"謝謝黃總召那第19條剛剛我們委員會審議通過但是剛剛黃總召提的的確在法條的競合上那麼金額跟量刑的額度上還有到底是洗錢行為還是詐欺犯罪所得還是證券交易所得等等都有待釐清是不是先請法務部先做一個回應好不好"},{"start":12730.39,"end":12756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案 中憲 趙薇 講的也是一樣,可能有很多人就是剛好詐欺到9999萬,那這種狀況的情況可能會有更多人用去這樣規避的方式,然後在實務上可能認知的問題,所以我們的版本是希望說還是朝家中的方向走,那如果今天洗方法是這樣的話,我可能等一下可能趙薇她可能會在黃國昌 趙薇可能會在希望就是到之後再去協商的方式處理。"},{"start":13303.412,"end":13318.145,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為剛剛我們的條文是在24條有保留送協商那24條的就是因為跟打詐專法的之間的保密義務的免責的部分我們說要一併處理那至於這一條是第19條"},{"start":13320.026,"end":13334.592,"text":"所以我們是照行政院提案通過不過後續由於幾位委員提出來意見我們在協商之前還是可以繼續討論所以未來也還是可以在院會處理之前有任何的修正都可以再度提出是不是可以請委員會我們就先做這樣的處理好那麼"},{"start":13337.173,"end":13364.719,"text":"本案逐條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完順擬具審查報告提請院會公決那本案須交由黨團協商院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明附帶決議兩項一併提報院會處理條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":13365.98,"end":13372.378,"text":"議程所列事項均已處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在三位謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15974","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd572295eeeb93594158d85e2d08749d243be8d109af184be449f43883a575f0a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T08:30:47+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-06-03T13:46:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":18913,"委員發言時間":"08:30:47 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關規定在兼顧保護個人資料還有合理使用數據的情況之下帶動資訊通訊傳播產業的發展以上報告謝謝好謝謝陳志偉下面那個請法務部黃次長報告簡短一點好不好我看你那個簡報資料蠻長的"},{"start":2497.612,"end":2513.977,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先生、女士今天奉邀就本件專案報告請代表本部列席並備質詢通報法規定的通訊紀錄是使電信的使用人在使用電信服務後所產生的一些相關的紀錄這些紀錄本身並沒有相關通訊的內容"},{"start":2516.858,"end":2516.978,"text":"稍後會議"},{"start":2546.698,"end":2554.005,"text":"通訊記錄必須採取法官保留原則換句話說檢察官或司法檢察官在偵查犯罪的時候如果符合通訪法的規定他必須要經過法院的核發"},{"start":2572.501,"end":2596.355,"text":"調取票之後才能夠調取而且法官在核發調取票的時候他也應該考量相關案件的必要性及本案關聯性以及比例原則至於有關違法調取通訊紀錄相關的違法刑責的部分請各位參考本部的報告相關的規定以上報告謝謝好謝謝法務部黃次長請各支委員會籌備處政府主任報告"},{"start":2610.95,"end":2632.698,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生先本籌備處奉邀來委員會報告深感榮幸那以下就這一次的報告主題來跟大家做說明那請各位委員來指教那首先是針對那個個資法跟相關行政法規定依據的部分因為個資法的性質是一個普通法那如果其他法規對於個人資料的收集處於利用是有規定的話"},{"start":2633.638,"end":2657.628,"text":"那依照中央法規標準法第16條特別法會優先於普通法也就是會適用這些特別法的規定那電信管理法第17條這邊其實在裡面已經有規範到電信用戶在對於個人資料收集處理利用的限制跟條件的規定那主要是要由電信的事業訂定定型化的服務的7月的條款來報送主管機關"},{"start":2659.289,"end":2687.764,"text":"NCC來核准後實施那相對於這些個資法的這些一般的規定電信管理法它是一個特別規定會優先適用那其次我再就電信法規跟這些的契約的規範來做簡要的說明我們現在三大的電信業者依照電信管理法第17條第二項第7款的規定已經都有報請通傳會來核准實施行動寬頻服務契約那其中的第37條裡面都有規定相關的一些規範"},{"start":2689.424,"end":2706.73,"text":"簡單來說就是電信業者如果要把這些涉及個人資料的這些手機的信令提供第三人使用之前那依照這個電信管理法第17條跟剛剛的7月的相關規定必須要先取得當事的同意或者處理並確認第三人是無從識別當事人"},{"start":2708.191,"end":2709.972,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項"},{"start":2737.802,"end":2762.427,"text":"發言時間初期委員5加1分鐘,列舉委員4加1分鐘。委員發言登記於10點30分截止。各委員如果有提案,請於10點前提出,以便議事人員會等。暫定10點30分,休息10分鐘。中午原則上不休息。現在請第一位發言的林佩祥委員。謝謝。"},{"start":2785.866,"end":2799.21,"text":"五一七的時候其實我在立法院裡面我看著外面立法院的標語寫的是民主已死五一九的時候我在看到那個我們民眾黨外面的集會的標語叫做打倒新黨國"},{"start":2801.072,"end":2825.963,"text":"521的時候我看到外面的標語叫做反黑箱反擴權但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾非常非常的吃驚因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私踐踏基本人權的一個案子我一直認為說台灣是個民主法治國家像美國、好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節不應該發生在台灣但是我們現在看到的狀況這等於是跟全民攻敵"},{"start":2827.325,"end":2852.571,"text":"這是快20年前的電影 《全民公敵》還是《Board Identity》《神鬼認證》一樣好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節用國家機器來去監控我們全體的人民 在一個大型的活動的時候那我想只想請問部長 因為部長您是治安的專家您在就職速發部部長之前 我那時候有提醒過說我會問這些事情 請問一下目前這個技術是否可行"},{"start":2854.511,"end":2878.859,"text":"報告委員那個技術上我剛剛講過資料的串接是都有在散佈在各系統當然可行但是會相當的困難所以這個技術是可行的可行但是會相當困難因為要串接很多系統那事實上每個系統是獨立的那一定要各個系統都要得到允許所以這個方面在行政流程上技術上可行在行政流程上是很困難因為讓我們知道說我們現在確認有這個技術是可行的"},{"start":2881.32,"end":2898.425,"text":"因為我們一直是報道聽途說說可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題可能我們用Line會有日本的問題可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題可是沒想到我們自己的手機在台灣就會有這樣的技術謝謝部長那在下一位我想請黃次長"},{"start":2909.461,"end":2925.493,"text":"市長你好那時候王益川先生說有些是小草有些是太陽花的占了整個活動的六成我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成二十歲以下差不多占一成二巴拉巴拉講了一堆最重要的是說這些人在519樓下的也不一樣517跟519不一樣跟1月13也不一樣請問一下像這樣的資訊透露之後這樣的說法這樣的行為是否違法"},{"start":2934.441,"end":2953.678,"text":"公開報告本部所掌管是通訊保障監察法就通訪法他只能就犯罪的個案上才調起通信機對可是像如果這樣他你剛才講過他沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調全面性的這樣是否違法如果有人做出這樣活這樣行動是否違法那涉及到這是不是違反個人資料保護法的問題那就不是違法如果大大大規模的"},{"start":2954.978,"end":2979.511,"text":"對於大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法?個人資料保護法就非本部主管的業務了本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法所以你無法跟我講是否違法?對 沒有錯那請問是哪個部位可以講是否違法?目前有他的目的主管機關哪一位?個人資料保護法的目的主管機關好 那我還想請問一下如果說您認為以你的辦案經驗您是前任檢察官對"},{"start":2980.552,"end":2997.846,"text":"那嚴格講起來王先生理論上來講他不應該得到質問他應該不是主管的人來得到這方面的資訊對吧那各位報告這個已經涉及到個案個案的事實法律要適用要偵辦不是說你以前的先例對因為我們講辦案講先例以你的慣例先例之外"},{"start":2998.186,"end":3012.022,"text":"那現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情因為我會很好奇啦因為是整個系統這樣看起來整個run起來我們在4月20號的時候就有人預告說5月17號、5月21號、5月28號、5月28號這個就有318在就已經有人在媒體上面直接先預告了"},{"start":3017.728,"end":3044.291,"text":"所以已經知道那我剛剛也請教了我們那個林國成委員說什麼時候一五一九的活動暫定的他說是五月是兩個禮拜前差不多五月初所以這些時間都很明確的時候那以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的那怎麼樣去弄當然有困難性那當然你說現在是把這邊變成個案好我給你這個講法但是對於這件事情來講我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了那這邊資訊後來也拿到了"},{"start":3046.584,"end":3067.43,"text":"然後你說這是個案好我給你但是說實在話本席會認為說你單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料如果你說個案是刑事責任對吧可是如果是通案如果是這麼大大規模的話這只有兩個人講起來這只能做不能說這應該是國安才能國安局長才能拿到資訊可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿這些資訊呢"},{"start":3069.222,"end":3090.662,"text":"請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董"},{"start":3097.799,"end":3105.561,"text":"董事長如果說以你們當然你們現在是全面否認不過我是很好奇如果說以你們在去辦業務的話這樣資料是如何取得的"},{"start":3106.847,"end":3131.416,"text":"我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MAC address的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T認識過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的"},{"start":3136.399,"end":3151.951,"text":"中華電信處理任何個人資料包括人潮分析我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理剛才所提到的相關的功能我們沒有任何去識別化會給一般人他們的MAC address跟他們的年紀嗎?"},{"start":3156.548,"end":3173.723,"text":"王先生在媒體上面講的上面是有說這些是不同人而且甚至繫到說連年齡都有是他透露訊息我想本身那份資料應該更完整而且速度很快我記得這個他講的時候是5月22他5月22的話變成是5月19號、5月17號甚至521資料很快就出來怎麼會有這麼快這麼迅速的作業呢"},{"start":3180.899,"end":3209.031,"text":"本公司沒有提供任何有關到從517到524之間任何的資料我們沒有提供任何人潮這方面的人潮分析資料那我想請問一下如果有的話那通常是一個如果是企業體要購買像這方面的資料因為本席會認為說如果這些資料可以拿出來在這個政論節目上面隨便亂講的話那基本上我們詐騙集團問題就很大啦那難怪我們詐騙這麼多因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶"},{"start":3210.546,"end":3213.127,"text":"報告委員中華電信的資料都在公司內部不會外流不會外流對不會外流"},{"start":3229.673,"end":3244.245,"text":"我會覺得這次的質詢還是一句話聽軍醫習話如聽醫習話其實對我們來講對我們國會議員來講是非常非常非常失望的那老實講我們期待因為這件事情你說什麼叫做毀線亂政這個就是毀線亂政"},{"start":3249.582,"end":3251.283,"text":"我個人覺得說我們對我們現在的體制非常失望以上"},{"start":3277.52,"end":3303.28,"text":"好,謝謝林培祥委員的發言下一位請李崑澤召委發言謝謝陳雪生召委,請一下陳耀祥主委還有黃部長好,耀祥主委還有黃部長請郭水義董事長郭董請好"},{"start":3306.684,"end":3325.279,"text":"我先請教一下陳主委我想我個人的立場非常清楚不管藍綠誰執政對於國家機器如果侵犯人民的這樣一個個資保護我們是絕對不能接受那我請教一下陳主委你針對電信三雄這是三大業者"},{"start":3326.636,"end":3348.981,"text":"針對這一次的清了行動有沒有進行所謂的這樣的一個相關數據的一個掌握來請說明一下我們5月3日有請三大電信業者到會做行政調查因為這個事情來講的話我們覺得是非常嚴重就是說如果有涉及到違法個人資料使用的話那這個是會涉及到可能還有行者的問題"},{"start":3349.941,"end":3365.991,"text":"那所以我們有很慎重其實是請三大業者到會調查而且請他們提供相關的資料那三大業者到會做行政調查的時候就表明他們並沒有提供給任何的這些所謂特定人士政黨也好或是企業也好這些相關的資料"},{"start":3366.952,"end":3383.079,"text":"那也有部分的媒體或者是群眾有質疑說相關的這些強迫車就是我們所知道的行動基地台那認為說這些是在收集相關的群眾的數據跟資料是不是有這樣的情形"},{"start":3383.999,"end":3384.019,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3414.339,"end":3439.832,"text":"就是我請教一下陳主委我們在過去現在民眾有時候會搞混掉因為我們在疫情期間有相關的疫情的一個調查的一個平台疫情的平台它有分成幾種方式因為它要掌握疫情這也是疾管局當初的一個相關的行政程序來要求的"},{"start":3441.004,"end":3453.315,"text":"我們在當初的這個疫情的調查平台其實就有QR Code、電子圍籬以及相關的疫情的輔助平台還有相關的簡訊系統"},{"start":3455.816,"end":3480.652,"text":"跟我們的人潮分析平台又是一個不同的平台人潮分析平台大部分都用於交通的疏解或是觀光人潮或是特定的城市的這樣的人潮的一個調查這樣的調查他是去識別化的跟疫情的調查有這樣的一個個資的問題是不一樣的那疫情的這個平台"},{"start":3481.733,"end":3510.439,"text":"在2022年在NCC的監督之下都已經下架而且資料完全的銷毀是不是這樣來清楚的說明這關於疫情平台因為它是有特定目的使用所以當時依照這個所謂的特別法還有傳染病防治法等相關包括有電子圍籬、疫調系統還有所謂的簡訊實聯制那這些相關的資料收集還有後來的刪除我們NCC還有衛福部都就這個部分有去進行相關的檢查這些相關的資料都已經刪除了"},{"start":3510.939,"end":3532.151,"text":"那他這個是因為基於防疫目的所以的確會對比如說會連結到個人資料但是這個是是限於政府使用這個所謂的防疫目的所使用並沒有提供給第三者去處理那這個我們剛才所講這大數據分析是另外一種剛才所講人流的分析這種大數據分析是說個人資料去識別化以後"},{"start":3532.731,"end":3558.996,"text":"它很多的電信業者或者很多資訊服務業者它會提供這個大數據分析這個數據分析裡面呢第一個最重要的前提就是去識別化而且不可回溯所以剛才我也提到這個部分比如年紀、性別這些東西來講的話這個大數據分析裡面可以看得出來他們很多都是一種所謂輪廓性的資料相關疫情的這個調查的平台確實都已經下降而且全部資料都銷毀 是不是啦?是"},{"start":3560.596,"end":3583.473,"text":"這個部分我們已經下降而且全部銷毀了好最後更嚴肅的問你所謂的去識別化是做到什麼程度叫去識別化去識別化簡單來講的話就是說任何技術上第一個是匿名第二個是不可回溯不可回溯包括說你從這個資料沒有辦法回溯到這個特定的個人那這個是技術上的所以不管是直接也好、間接也好都不可以回溯到個人這樣的技術方式"},{"start":3584.173,"end":3597.106,"text":"最後時間我簡短的請教一下陳主委是有關於景廣的問題景廣是在駕駛或是民眾非常重要的一個收聽的電台其實你知不知道"},{"start":3598.206,"end":3598.406,"text":"因為它立體聲嘛"},{"start":3614.634,"end":3641.158,"text":"而且在目前有AM的這樣一個台南跟新竹這個造成民眾在駕駛的時候不管是行車的安全、資訊的取得或者是相關收聽的品質就會變得比較差我們能不能讓儘管這兩個電台提升到FM有沒有頻道的空間這個部分來講的話我們有跟衛福部討論過這個部分目前來講頻道上是還有空間但是我們已經依照相關的程序在處理當中"},{"start":3641.898,"end":3668.197,"text":"我想第一個先讓儘管這兩個AM跟FN的這樣的台南跟新竹從AM能夠提升到FN讓整個收聽的品質能夠穩定全國都能夠一致然後我們接下來還有其實還有其他的公家的電台還是有問題吧漁業電台還有這個教育電台也是有這樣的一個使用AM的這樣的一個部分的"},{"start":3668.897,"end":3670.318,"text":"目前是有嗎?"},{"start":3688.372,"end":3713.477,"text":"來說明一下那個報告委員對應該那個認證信私我想那個應該是有的應該是有應該是有啦我們來進行相關的這樣的這是為民眾服務相關的交通安全交通疏解那京廣電台是有很大的一個幫助的作用我們再把資料再跟我們報告好謝謝好謝謝李坤澤召委好謝謝三位"},{"start":3723.231,"end":3737.465,"text":"先做宣告本日有委員提出臨時提案我們預計11點鐘左右處理讓各位有所準備現在下一位請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":3749.855,"end":3762.503,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們先請數位部黃部長黃部長NCC陳主委陳主委跟個人資料保護委員會的副主任、正副主任副主任請還有中華電信國董事長國董事長請好"},{"start":3776.454,"end":3789.205,"text":"謝謝,謝謝各位這個Big Brother is watching you這個是1949年一個知名的小說老大哥在看著你啊讓我想沒想到2024年可能的這個事件當年的小說變成預言"},{"start":3791.891,"end":3805.525,"text":"這個上週政論節目裡面這個王一川曾經講過說民進黨政策會執行長王一川講他們去比對了這個相關的517跟民進黨樓下的訊號比起來不同人那他的說法是依據所謂的電信心理人口統計的資料"},{"start":3806.866,"end":3832.819,"text":"那我想內政部110年的這個電信資料當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等的都有去統計但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字我想問一下我們陳主委以上的敘述對不對沒有錯 這個是大數據分析要去識別化那換句話說理論上來講不同的場合、不同的人群理論上是沒辦法做比對的是嗎"},{"start":3835.23,"end":3860.145,"text":"這個資料基本上來講比如說如果你說做兩個場合來講的話如果大數據分析有一些比如說性別或年紀有些東西輪廓性的資料來講的話還是有可能的比如說這個是學生的活動還是比如說一般成年的活動還是有一些年紀上或性別上還是有區別的好所以主委說有可能去做比對那沒關係如果有可能做比對的話我再確認一件事情誰可以去申請電信心靈資料"},{"start":3863.704,"end":3875.48,"text":"電信信息資料基本上來講的話是在電信公司這邊嘛那基本上如果說他已經去識別化了這個東西來講就變成所謂的數據在使用當中好 謝謝主委 那我問一下郭董事長"},{"start":3878.362,"end":3897.927,"text":"郭董事長從這個今年總統大選的造勢晚會然後到今年519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請了手機的這個電信信用資料沒有都沒有那誰可以申請電信資料剛剛主委說"},{"start":3901.548,"end":3926.466,"text":"主委有沒有回答?我想問一下這個實務面的話誰可以來跟中華電信申請這樣的手機信用資料?我們電信信用資料是不會外流的,剛才有報告那剛才提到的任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行相關的活動我們沒有這樣的一個分析主委,對不起,董事長你說電信信用資料是不能外流的,但是"},{"start":3927.54,"end":3944.404,"text":"地方政府他們就有掌握到他們就是能夠利用電信資料來做對比啊?報告委員那個是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析應用所以它是另外再另外給你買這個東西嗎?是嗎?就是人潮分析平台上面所產製的大數據的這個分析資料"},{"start":3947.604,"end":3963.469,"text":"這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有"},{"start":3968.471,"end":3997.871,"text":"所以誰可以買?任何人都可以買嗎?任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料大數據資料呢?如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的關關應用或疏解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料呢我們會應這個主管單位的一些比如地方的這個縣市政府的需求然後在最重要的是在合法合規的一個前提下而且重要是要去識別化"},{"start":3998.752,"end":4001.674,"text":"主管機關針對了所謂的這個觀光或者是交通問題他們可以來購買去做分析比對"},{"start":4019.512,"end":4034.936,"text":"對,就去識別化之後在分析之前先去識別化好,郭董謝謝那換句話說齁這郭董沒事齁換句話說齁這個這個政策會執行長王岳川在電視上講的這段看起來理論上來不是從你們這邊來購買的啦對吧不是"},{"start":4044.156,"end":4062.813,"text":"接下來下一段我想問一下我們這個我們數位部我們黃部長部長你在今天的報告裡面提到說除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料才能夠進行交叉比對否則無法連上特定區域某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布是嗎?"},{"start":4063.353,"end":4065.174,"text":"所以技術上可行但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜"},{"start":4085.595,"end":4112.176,"text":"那如果王逸川講說他取得的話你覺得這句話有沒有可行性沒有沒有報告委員因為我沒有在這個就是說我不能判斷因為我沒有這個資料就是好沒關係那最後因為時間不夠我來問一下我們這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處你在今天報告裡面提到一件事情第二頁的部分然後後面提到的在這個合約裡面我們都很在意我們個人資料保護但是在這個"},{"start":4113.715,"end":4122.367,"text":"合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?"},{"start":4123.716,"end":4146.056,"text":"這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認是 黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包含到電信事業在個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上"},{"start":4148.075,"end":4169.976,"text":"所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供"},{"start":4171.545,"end":4171.645,"text":"主席"},{"start":4192.685,"end":4205.993,"text":"有當然你如果要變更的話你就要通知就是說我原來來講的話比如說接著契約裡面來講的話當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題嘛他如果覺得他的個人資料有這個疑慮他可以要求這個電信公司他可以退出的問題"},{"start":4207.414,"end":4221.739,"text":"最後一個時間我知道這個是誰主管機關過去疫情的時候有統計到有這個所謂電子城牆的問題那當然依法理論上你們是消除了那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除"},{"start":4225.407,"end":4244.169,"text":"在哪裡?這個執行過程在哪裡?我請我們的同仁來,我們先去檢查報告委員,那個我們是配合那個疫情結束後12年5月因為降階以後就是這套監控系統都全部停止那我們都是配合那個衛福部的"},{"start":4245.07,"end":4266.71,"text":"因應衛福部的要求我們還分別了我們NCC分別去了五趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除以上所以疫情期間收集的、處理的、利用的這些個人資料還有他們去過的任何地方的相關資料在現階段都已經消除了"},{"start":4268.611,"end":4289.517,"text":"疫情期間也曾經大家也看到了不管是這個天下雜誌還是我們這個以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好就是說台灣實際上能夠做到監控這個人流監控手機的這個透過手機來監控人的這個流向這件事情我想問一下我們NCC我們陳主委現階段技術上到底做不做得到這件事情"},{"start":4290.622,"end":4311.564,"text":"不曉得委員你問的是個人還是說人流個人個人基本上來講的話你要手機當然有啊因為基本上比如說你要救災要救人或者是說比如說歧視犯罪可能有通報的這個問題技術上來講是有可行的但是說你如果沒有有沒有所謂的法律規定嘛你如果違反法律規定的話就違反各自法或者是相關的法律"},{"start":4312.245,"end":4335.697,"text":"所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當要有法律的依據還有法律的程序法定程序才可以所以如果沒有通過法律程序取得了這些個人的資料的話他就是違法對吧對如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得那就會受會可能侵害到個人的資料各自好主委謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝黃建豪委員下一位請林國正委員發言"},{"start":4350.441,"end":4350.941,"text":"明明知道"},{"start":4380.987,"end":4404.927,"text":"你人數人流這些懶懶逆逆去做控制這商業之行為當然是在範疇之內可是交叉比對這是非常嚴重的就是監視人民的行動自由跟到哪邊他就有辦法監控現在問題發生的是這個問題啊"},{"start":4409.625,"end":4434.993,"text":"可是我看到你們三個單位來守走報告你跟所有委員來做這些報告各位首長這是可以看得出來人民不信任是來自於政府不認真啦我說實在的我最喜歡退人家的報告但是我今天看你們這些報告我真的心裡面很難過我要請問"},{"start":4438.297,"end":4466.036,"text":"人民這麼在乎他不是個資法的問題而是非常恐怖變成現在綠色在執政的時候這是綠色恐怖耶人民的行動他都有辦法去把它監控出來這是一個恐怖的社會所以你們是主管機關我第一個要請教四位主管第一請問"},{"start":4467.321,"end":4490.046,"text":"除了NCC以外你們有沒有做什麼非常嚴厲積極的去做調查來陳主委你說有沒有我們基本上第一時間來講的話就請三大電信所做行政調查而且請他們提供相關的資料去處理那這個他有沒有提供來主委有沒有提供他"},{"start":4490.686,"end":4503.414,"text":"他們有到會進行行政調查但是相關的資料還沒提到你們行政調查嘛他還沒有提供資料他們說沒有你們就說沒有嘛資料還有在處理當中有嘛好來那個黃部長你們有沒有做什麼調查那個"},{"start":4505.53,"end":4520.303,"text":"這件事情我們主要管的是技術面啦那技術面我只想說對啦你技術面有沒有什麼查出什麼破綻嘛這個技術面還是要根據我個人過去在電信多年經驗我只能說技術面那個系統是存在的是有可能的"},{"start":4522.145,"end":4524.746,"text":"好 那個黃市長你們現在有在調查嘛來 那個郭董事長來好 你們一直說沒有嘛三大電信業說沒有嘛"},{"start":4551.223,"end":4580.767,"text":"打死你 你們也說沒有啦我必須要提醒全黨挺議人情有可言但是整個政府挺議人會把台灣的人權把它當掉這必須我要提醒各位來 郭董事長我請教你一下國安局、調查局還有警政署有沒有曾經跟你們調過這些資料 有沒有"},{"start":4582.419,"end":4604.426,"text":"委員指的是哪一段時間的資料不是哪一段時間啦 有沒有啦過去如果有根據剛才像次長說明的他依照這個通保法相關的規定來調取有沒有提供你不要講那麼多當然是要依照最先一個就是正式的合法一個是徽法嘛"},{"start":4605.146,"end":4617.86,"text":"那我現在問你們非法你也不會講嘛真的有你也不會講我問的是合法的有沒有合法的我們要配合提供有沒有嘛有多少件這要統計要統計齁這個合法的應該可以提供給本院啦"},{"start":4626.226,"end":4635.876,"text":"多少件就好了不需要針對多少件那我也要拜託我們陳主委像這種合法要不要召會你們"},{"start":4638.539,"end":4639.159,"text":"另外一個"},{"start":4666.172,"end":4689.982,"text":"那看起來似乎啊 來主委不好意思那個資料來講的話我們可以問一下那個統計因為剛剛委員所講應該有個時間點我們才有辦法調啦比如說是這一年還是怎麼樣我們會去問問看他們這三年好不好這三年好不好這三年我們來看他們有沒有相關資料好不好這個來提供一下來現在主委我特別要問那看起來似乎"},{"start":4691.002,"end":4709.348,"text":"你們都沒有嘛 包括法務部 法務部就是個案在偵辦嘛 那你們三個電信公司都沒有嘛 那你們兩個監督單位還有那個主管單位 你們通通都是沒有 那見鬼啦"},{"start":4710.966,"end":4737.708,"text":"為什麼王先生、王一川先生他有這些資料可以去分析這個分析人流都OK這個都可以掌握也可以有商業之行為現在是交叉比對可以把人員分辨出來也就是說有些參加小草的有些參加319的都不一樣的人可以去分析出來"},{"start":4738.628,"end":4752.894,"text":"問題在這裡所以我要拜託主委這個部分不是今天你來報告一下說這個沒有問題就不是這樣牽涉到人民的被監控的問題是非常嚴重的這個會贏效國際的"},{"start":4755.795,"end":4781.372,"text":"現在民主國家沒有人在這樣除了我們的賴總統說我不是民主國家他如果敢這樣講那我們沒話講還是在戒嚴時代那沒話講可是現在我們是民主國家這個事情是不容許最後一個我要請教諸位如果假設這些通通沒有那很簡單就是假新聞"},{"start":4783.001,"end":4809.562,"text":"我正式跟你檢舉以現在的情況看起來現在那個黃次長他們已經在偵辦但是假新聞現在沒有我正式跟你檢舉這個假新聞你要怎麼處理可以不可以處理我們已法定程序處理齁這個如果說委員已經檢舉我們本身我正式檢舉喔有沒有落實事實查證這個部分我去處理好不好我正式跟你檢舉好不好好謝謝"},{"start":4815.254,"end":4831.993,"text":"好下一位請林俊憲委員發言好現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":4837.216,"end":4863.854,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC陳主委我們速發部黃部長好陳主委黃部長好謝謝陳主委主委我看你的那個報告裡面你又寫到前幾天五月三十號你有請三大行動業者大會了解"},{"start":4865.011,"end":4881.446,"text":"我就重複一下你寫的那個報告裡面他說這三大行動通信業者就是中華電信嘛、台哥大、遠傳嘛這三家對不對沒錯他們三家的業者到會都說明"},{"start":4882.711,"end":4898.009,"text":"在侵擾行動的那段期間沒有任何私人企業政府機關或特定黨籍人士向該等公司跟他們三家公司接洽或請求有關侵擾行動相關人流資訊"},{"start":4899.417,"end":4919.763,"text":"那三家公司也表示啦 從來沒有提供任何相關資料或資訊給予其他的單位或人士 是不是這樣 是 我們在報告第二頁寫得很清楚 所以他們三間公司都認為 都說沒有嘛 對不對 是那過去啦 他們三大電信公司對於這種所謂人流上用手機訊號"},{"start":4921.571,"end":4947.583,"text":"去做的那種數據啦他們有在做商業販售嗎跟委員報告一下我們這裡討論說個資跟數據這兩個概念是不太一樣個資去識別化以後不可逆以後它就成為一個數據那數據是可以做商業發展有些公關公司有些數據公司他會去買啦但是重點是你要合法那合法就是你要去識別化"},{"start":4948.8,"end":4969.467,"text":"你這些資料裡面不可以讓它回溯去查到每一個人啦沒錯只要這樣的話它就是合法那過去誰會去買這些資料除了我剛講的數據公司啦一些行銷公司啦地方政府也會買啦是沒錯過去的各個政黨都買過啦你就把他們的商量公司調出來"},{"start":4970.543,"end":4998.703,"text":"你看民進黨、國民黨有買過嗎?民眾黨有沒有買過?以前買這個是合法可以買但是你必須要去識別化要合法必須要遵守這樣的一個規範是不是這樣?但重點是清了行動期間這三家電信公司都說沒有販送沒有人去買那他們也沒有提供資料是不是這樣子?沒錯這三家電信公司會不會說謊?"},{"start":5000.424,"end":5028.555,"text":"我想這個是說反對,台中大陸幕後老街蔡明忠耶深藍的大金主耶他怎麼說不出來這有法律責任的問題有法律責任的問題嘛遠傳電信怎麼會說不出來中華電信在這裡怎麼會說不出來都沒有人跟你們說不出來你們有沒有提過我們那有沒有說謊誰查得到法務部查得到啦檢察官查得到啦因為這個案子有人去搞了啦他已經是他治案了他治案就是偵辦"},{"start":5030.711,"end":5057.928,"text":"那我也要求我們司法單位檢察官這邊要去查明是不是在那段時間請到行動那幾天沒有任何的資料漏出來沒有人去買啦不管合法就算合法買的都沒有啦對不對他現在是說連合法購買的都沒有那我這三家資訊公司會不會非法提供"},{"start":5060.018,"end":5065.022,"text":"人權維護是每一個政黨都要做的事情誰都可能當執政黨誰都可能在野"},{"start":5089.912,"end":5113.043,"text":"能不能都有可能輪流執政輪流在野這是我們台灣民主國家這是我們一個最基本的一個理念一個價值所以必須要維護法、人權、保障人民這是我們大家要做的絕不允許有這種事情所以這個事情你們當然要查清楚那如果三家電信公司都沒有資料流出去那可不可能會產生所謂監控的問題你手機身上沒有貼水是要監控什麼"},{"start":5118.447,"end":5119.027,"text":"接下來我請教一下那個蘇華部黃部長"},{"start":5144.625,"end":5150.116,"text":"您有沒有跟昨天可以說演說非常受到全世界注目的"},{"start":5151.84,"end":5152.821,"text":"那部長有提過嗎?"},{"start":5181.27,"end":5192.446,"text":"國家政策啦 政府要設立AI生態園區是不是這樣子這是我們跟國發會還有國客會在努力的目標我認為啊 你有提到啦 第一個當然要土地嘛"},{"start":5193.899,"end":5220.489,"text":"對不對土地一定要有嘛第二個你說交通便利嘛部長AI生態園區啊最適合設立的就在台南高鐵特區啦就在台南沙崙我對沙崙還蠻熟的因為我個人有辦公室在那裡對你為什麼會熟因為我們台灣很多最重要的高等研究機構都設在這個地方所以沙崙周邊相關互相支援的"},{"start":5221.704,"end":5223.888,"text":"已經非常的完整了"},{"start":5224.966,"end":5251.525,"text":"所以國家如果未來要設立AI生態園區我們台南高鐵高鐵特區的沙崙是最適合的部長你的看法我這個我還在先跟國會跟國科會開會不過我個人是對沙崙還蠻熟悉的我覺得那個生態應該是符合你所提出的幾項條件因為我注意到你有提到一點嘛交通要便利最好高鐵出來就到了這裡就是啦對"},{"start":5253.206,"end":5274.793,"text":"是不是應該優先列入考量?有在考量,對,沒錯有在考量齁?我們私底下再談啦OK,好 這個最適合的啦我們待會兒沒必要再寫下去啦你南部要找一個沒有比這個地方更好的啦再跟委員請教,好那個AI生態營區一定要考慮設在我們台南台南那個高鐵的沙崙好不好?好,謝謝部長謝謝,謝謝委員好,謝謝林俊健市長"},{"start":5280.476,"end":5292.226,"text":"這麼早就在布局了是不是?AI設在沙倫啊?政見啊?好,謝謝了。下一位請蔡其山副院長謝謝主席、雪生兄"},{"start":5306.153,"end":5316.319,"text":"請陳耀祥主委、請中華電信今天只有三家,只有一家嗎?國董另外兩家有來嗎?沒有沒有來,那就中華電信當代表另外請個人資料保護委員會的鄭副主任鄭副主任委員"},{"start":5334.794,"end":5347.469,"text":"今天主席做的這個題目我的理解上我並不希望把它理解成王逸川先生的個人事件但是這個事件的背後有很重要的價值"},{"start":5348.51,"end":5376.011,"text":"我覺得人權是民進黨這個從政黨員非常重要的價值是很多我們這個黨很重要的DNA所以過去我在立法院將近20年的時間我每一次我都對於科技發展科技發展也就是說我十幾年前還在還必須要每天質詢在交通委員會的時候那時候ETEC剛通ETEC剛開始做我也問了一個問題就是"},{"start":5378.989,"end":5402.977,"text":"當時的院長叫王金平,王院長的坐車經過哪幾個交流道誰可以去調這個資訊當時那個交通部回答我那個員警就可以調資訊了所以這個都是各自的保護啦所以對我而言這個題目很重要是因為我一直在強調一個觀念如果人權的保障跟不上黃仁勳"},{"start":5404.537,"end":5433.433,"text":"那AI是福是禍AI有可能是災難AI有可能是災難我想這幾天所有黃仁勳的新聞站滿了各個版面不只是只有經濟的版面甚至政治的版面因為對岸也在對岸的小粉紅對黃仁勳的講話也很感冒他說台灣是重要的國家是AI產業的支柱所以對方也很抓狂那體育版也站滿了"},{"start":5434.073,"end":5452.69,"text":"因為黃仁勳到我們中華職棒的這個大巨蛋啊在衛泉的主場去開球所以他幾乎占據了黃仁勳為什麼會得到那麼關注是因為黃仁勳這個NVIDIA的這個GPU帶動的整個AI產業在全球的發展那AI產業帶動的發展改變了人類的生活"},{"start":5453.888,"end":5465.498,"text":"所以換言之我們面對科技的趨勢我們其實相對的因為在未來AI的時代裡面透過大數據的收集分析教會AI讓這個電腦機器人學習人類的所有的這個行為所以"},{"start":5471.641,"end":5495.569,"text":"教導他的能夠教導這些電腦其實就是很簡單就是我們的大數據所以大數據的運用在這幾年在就算AI還沒有成形數據的經濟數據的科技早就已經運用包括在醫療未來醫療的判讀到底你的X光照完之後生了什麼病已經醫生都可能被取代所以這個就是發展的趨勢"},{"start":5496.581,"end":5524.169,"text":"那回過頭來這些大數據的data如果我們的法規跟不上如果我們對法規對人權的保障、隱私權的保障跟不上那各位想想這到底是福還是禍這是不是災難所以我一直在講這個強調這一點為什麼我對這個各自保護啊我們的籌備委員會非常在乎是這個好那我們先回過來這個主題"},{"start":5526.035,"end":5553.284,"text":"我們看一下現在我們對於電信公司所提供的這些數據目前被運用的狀況我只舉幾個縣市政府台中市政府他的網站裡面你可以去找到這些資料他對於觀光景點的分析我想請問一下那個陳主委公布性別、人次、年齡"},{"start":5555.647,"end":5572.405,"text":"請問一下這個以目前的法規裡面去跟三大電信業者買了大數據的資料透過手機買了大數據的資料分析完之後裡面有性別、人質、年齡請問一下這個是合法還是非法"},{"start":5573.638,"end":5576.841,"text":"所以換言之台中市政府新北市政府這個都是合法的"},{"start":5594.938,"end":5613.199,"text":"就是不管他們是縣市政府自己去買到這個大數據跟電信公司買嘛買這個數據資料然後進行分析或者他們在委託這個數據公司公共公司進行這個數據的分析以目前的法規來講這個都是合法的"},{"start":5614.011,"end":5632.271,"text":"換言之公佈人數、公佈性別、公佈年齡這個只要在去識別化的前提下不知道幾歲這個人是誰去識別化的意思就是這樣不知道這個人蔡啟昌當天在現場這個不行對不對但是我的年紀比如說我55歲裡面有一個55歲的"},{"start":5635.074,"end":5662.541,"text":"那這個是合法的對不對所以我們先釐清嘛案子要處理一定要先釐清數據的買賣隨著科技的發展電信公司三大電信公司都有提供這樣的服務郭董事長這樣對不對對報告委員只要是輪廓性的去識別化輪廓性的這個分析資料是合法的是合法你們都有在買賣對我也可以買有提供任何一個人都可以去買賣去買你們的資料對不對"},{"start":5666.395,"end":5684.031,"text":"我們針對那個活動的主辦單位只要他不非跟這個政黨政治性的議題的我們都會提供人潮分析的資料對換言之我要問的是說這個是這個是三大電信業者的business對不對是是你們的商業活動嗎"},{"start":5684.791,"end":5710.498,"text":"對是我們的商業活動的我們的業務項目之一所以你們商業活動提供出來的這些data這些數據基本上就已經去識別化了對不對對我們在進行分析之前都去識別化好那個我想請問副主任為三大我沒有針對因為只有今天只有中華電信來啦是三大電信業者未來所販售的資料裡面如果有可能"},{"start":5711.809,"end":5719.693,"text":"沒有辦法去識別化或者去識別化之後還可回溯那我們未來我們這個籌備會這個個人資料保護的這個籌備會未來你們有什麼因應措施"},{"start":5726.183,"end":5727.564,"text":"我們如果發現有人有三大電信業者違規的時候我們的處理機制是什麼"},{"start":5750.092,"end":5768.71,"text":"委員目前現在個資法目前就電信業者基本上已經可以由NCE這邊來去處理那將來以後委員會成立還是會繼續處理好那你覺得站在你個人資料保護的主管單位的立場你覺得現在的處罰跟防保護個人資料的機制夠不夠法規或者處罰的金額"},{"start":5771.604,"end":5793.769,"text":"委員當然這個在111年憲判第13套解釋之後其實我們大概已經理解很多的機制我們大概都會重新再來去檢視那將來我們還會再去提出更好的你現在是籌備處啦其實我對於你們這個單位我寄予無限的期待謝謝委員你很簡單我剛剛講所有的法規"},{"start":5795.209,"end":5810.75,"text":"這裡面因為時間很有限我沒有辦法一一告訴你這裡面隨著科技的發展你所要防範的相關的可能洩漏個資或者可能在這個這個對人權保障上面其實你責任重大"},{"start":5811.755,"end":5832.876,"text":"所以你必須要走在你要跟著黃仁勳啊你不能落後黃仁勳啊你要跟著他知道說現在整個AI發展到什麼程度這一個科技的運用可能對人權對個資的保護產生什麼樣重大影響對岸已經在展現實力給你看嘛對岸從所有的消費行為"},{"start":5833.942,"end":5859.125,"text":"你一天你這一輩子你買了什麼東西資料Data清清楚楚你走在路上所有的資訊照著你人眼辨識清清楚楚所以如果不把這些個資保護做好如果今天啊這個個資保護的這個委員會這個籌備會不趕快來成立然後同時透過法規的建制AI齁運用不好齁他是極權主義的溫床"},{"start":5861.36,"end":5877.997,"text":"他是極權主義的問題那更多的想像是到底是人類用機器人還是未來機器人統治人類他都不再是科幻電影裡面的情節他可能會在真實世界裡面上演所以這個就是我對於"},{"start":5879.844,"end":5895.98,"text":"你們這個單位身兼對於人權保護對於個資的保護對到底科技的運用對人類帶來方便的同時我們應該要背後去想著人作為一個人的價值是什麼這個才是今天這個問題的關鍵"},{"start":5899.023,"end":5914.338,"text":"副主任你知道我所要表達的意思很清楚吧謝謝委員非常清楚那也非常感謝委員關心這個議題那我們其實目前也持續有在關注包含AI、KL、新興科技那我們其實有一些平台其實會跟各部會合作那另外我看了NCC的報告"},{"start":5915.259,"end":5937.417,"text":"如果你有報告裡面有提到三大電信業者你們馬上進行了行政調查三大電信業者對於這一次的輕鳥行動沒有任何的民間公司或個人跟三大電信業者購買這一次的數據對不對沒錯這個確定嘛除非三大業者說法對不對否則你的調查是這樣子沒錯"},{"start":5938.858,"end":5954.57,"text":"所以換言之不管任何人在運用我看到你的報告的結論就任何人在講述這一次的侵略行動在我看來只要業者沒有販售任何資料看起來都是自我想像的"},{"start":5955.43,"end":5983.967,"text":"對不對應該是這樣嘛就自己不管要上電視上廣播自己寫臉書基本上都是他自己的推論跟想像應該是這樣來理解沒錯所以我還是回到主題啦勿妄勿重啦就是不可以對於個資的保護人權的保障我們不應該隨著科技或者是哪一個政黨在執政我們要有所差別這個是捍衛台灣人的這個人權的價值跟"},{"start":5985.249,"end":6003.324,"text":"我們對於每一個人各自該有的保護其實它也是國家安全我們應該要不分黨派來把這件事情嚴格的把守好那最後剩下一個小小的問題那個副主任我們的籌備會到底要籌備到什麼時候才可以正式掛牌"},{"start":6003.925,"end":6031.742,"text":"是 跟那個蔡委員報告我們其實正在努力的持續因為這中間還會有一些研議的修法包含到個資法可能中間的一些跟組織職權的一些配套那我們大概是那個努力在明眼好 你要快一點喔修法齁 這個時候你提出來因為藍綠現在看起來都重視這個個資保護嘛不然今天主席就不會排這個題目嘛那既然大家都重視風都來了你還不揚帆你就是蠢蛋了嘛"},{"start":6032.338,"end":6056.289,"text":"所以趕快這些相關的修法這個院長也說嘛像這個就是大家有共識的藍綠有共識的這個修法應該要加速進行你的籌備時間也因為大家朝野立委支持對人權保護對於個資保護的支持所以你的速度應該要加快這樣可不可以是 謝謝我們盡快提出草案好 謝謝主席 謝謝大家好 謝謝副院長"},{"start":6057.991,"end":6071.889,"text":"副院長對今天這個議題持保留態度當然副院長有他的高度但是畢竟大數據這件事情已經發生在清了行動其實我跟副院長報告"},{"start":6073.391,"end":6092.192,"text":"我在上一次蔡英文總統選舉的時候我就看過這種東西了所以合法的流出與合法的不合法的流出這是一回事大數據的這個承辦同仁啊這個領導啊有沒有把東西不一定是買賣啊私底下流出去那才可怕"},{"start":6094.007,"end":6111.418,"text":"既然有這樣的一個王玉川執行長吐露出來,尤其他這樣重要職務吐露出來一個訊息這真是有問題所以我才設計把今天的議題定位到國家機器這一點我跟副院長報告下一位請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":6123.683,"end":6136.713,"text":"好 謝謝各位有請我們速發部黃部長、NCC我們陳主委以及我們這個法務部黃次長還有中華電信的郭董這個剛剛很多委員也講過了齁"},{"start":6143.37,"end":6172.149,"text":"這個本來一個劇本設計在1984年的一個劇本老大哥在watching他的人民啊結果40年之後啊奇怪我們現在也不知道到底是真的還是假的但是確定啊人民開始有一個懷疑了包括我們立法院也好我相信在座的主管嘛包括你們問了半天從早上到昨天的新聞前天的新聞大家基本基本上都是不是否認啦都說沒有嘛資料沒有這個沒有沒有全部都沒有齁"},{"start":6173.13,"end":6177.133,"text":"那現在的一個情況是他到底說了什麼?"},{"start":6193.814,"end":6219.03,"text":"第一個他正式講的就是王玉川民進黨政策會黨部的主管是主管不是隨便的黨工他講什麼呢他就把三個活動做對比嘛三個活動做對比很簡單嘛那這三個活動要怎麼做對比有些是在五六個月前五個月前的以113的選前之夜那就請問一下中華電信還是大數據中心有來嗎"},{"start":6220.131,"end":6233.788,"text":"你們現在如果今天我給你要資料要112當天在某個地方誰有去誰沒去你現在在你們的電腦裡面可以查到嗎就我現在現在假設合法給你要你有沒有這個數據"},{"start":6235.069,"end":6237.932,"text":"所以你們人潮分析有一個關鍵點是不是都要事前申請?"},{"start":6253.331,"end":6253.751,"text":"沒有辦法真的還假的"},{"start":6269.411,"end":6271.232,"text":"第二個關鍵字就是手機的訊號嘛來再看下一個"},{"start":6289.573,"end":6302.302,"text":"平常大型的活動都有這些市場調查公司在做包括最近的這些活動也都有在做那當然去對應到的是手機的門號那門號有沒有重疊門號有沒有出現停留多久大概都可以通這些資訊能夠得到所以這個是業界很經常用的一個方法"},{"start":6303.786,"end":6330.491,"text":"這是他第二個說法而且包括民進黨黨部的發言人也在幫他說了這個新北市、台北市都在做台南市也在做了做了這個人潮分析嘛你說過了嘛沒有辦法這個完全去識別性的有多少人去或魯明哲沒有去過你不能知道喔對不對那這個部分所以他講的兩件事情都是透過手機的訊號而且他在佐政他講的是對的那你看最新的發展是什麼昨天的發展是什麼"},{"start":6331.94,"end":6355.473,"text":"你看這麼多人幫他說話耶我看到我們這個民進黨的吳思耀委員昨天也幫他說話說我們幹嘛要開今年的會議啊這也是新北市台北市都在做的一般的人潮分析啊昨天才說完今天王一川昨天晚上就把他打臉啊怎麼打臉沒有看到昨天他又上節目啦他說我沒有資料啦我沒有資料啦"},{"start":6357.173,"end":6378.248,"text":"我只要看人、看直播、看影片我到現場用膝蓋想就知道了我告訴你這不是打電話我們之前幫他所有擋子彈的那些他的同志我覺得這真的非常非常扯所以我是現在我覺得很奇怪所以中華電信剛剛問你你大數據到底可不可以追溯那你現在你說"},{"start":6379.742,"end":6380.863,"text":"大約我沒有特別去統計"},{"start":6410.04,"end":6433.911,"text":"我建議你齁因為這個事情剛剛法務部也說了嘛會正在查你有很多這個訊息我建議你要跟你所有的廠商確認喔他們有沒有這方面的一個數據我也建議你再下一個層級跟你簽約的一個廠商做一個確認有沒有任何人提供類似的資料好不好給王先生這個部分我是建議你過來去做那法務部法務部黃市長"},{"start":6435.418,"end":6436.499,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6454.162,"end":6473.553,"text":"所以你們在31條還定義要徵修了網路上是什麼講得很清楚然後呢重點如果可以通過修法怎麼要調閱這些資料呢還要經過法院要法院同意耶所以這很嚴重但我是建議你們太辛苦了直接問王大哥你知道嗎"},{"start":6473.993,"end":6476.695,"text":"檢察官在5月29日犯案之後他就已經在積極的進行偵查了證據保全了沒有"},{"start":6498.246,"end":6524.202,"text":"報告委員這證據保全這個是社交檢查官的偵查步驟我這邊就第一個我也不知道我也不可能在這邊透露他的不是啊不要到最後這個什麼他自然是一個等於說車修部而已弄完之後什麼也沒有就簡單來講嘛這在手機這些資訊大數據都是可能刪除瞬間去處理的他到底跟誰通訊我因為我現在是推論這有可能是事實喔我有可能是事實喔"},{"start":6524.702,"end":6551.192,"text":"在這種事實之下有民眾檢舉了我覺得證據保全包括中華電信啊他大數據中心到底有沒有跟他來來往往啊相關的一些單位我覺得你們要去做一個證據保全不然到最後你們等最要啟動的時候事實上什麼東西都不見了所以我就給你建議啦我希望證據保全事實上查一個案子的最基本那接下來訴法"},{"start":6554.944,"end":6570.533,"text":"其實那天你有拜會我也跟你談過這件事嘛你覺得現在在技術上可不可以做到我們王大哥啦以前老大哥嘛王大哥他所說的這種情況三個活動誰有去誰被去是不是同樣的人這個你覺得在技術上可以做到嗎"},{"start":6571.033,"end":6572.434,"text":"副部長,說真的啦,這個技術的含量非常低啦"},{"start":6592.728,"end":6617.363,"text":"好不好,只要你資料給我啦,個人資料全部給我,我只要索引一下就知道誰幾歲了所以關鍵點這技術的,就是說當他沒有提供這些資料,完全沒有這些資料那現在的技術可以發展到哪一個活動去哪個活動沒去,這是蠻可怕的表示在四五個月前在凱道的時候就已經做了完整的紀錄有明確的紀錄才可以跟後面來比較的"},{"start":6618.484,"end":6643.133,"text":"我以為那個細部的那個系統的資料我想那個我們郭董事長比較清楚我目前報告中華電信的系統上的一切合法合遵我們在系統上沒有這樣的一個所謂的三個不同的時間點交叉比對這種功能沒有嗎那第二最重要的是它是一個去識別化而且是輪廓性分析所以沒有辦法去比對說某一天今天立法院我有來沒有來"},{"start":6644.389,"end":6655.595,"text":"所以你就一個中華電信的立場你是三大業者那有人在節目上說他用手機訊號去比對你覺得他的說法是什麼你說給個評價我不方便評論那是不是胡說八道不好意思講"},{"start":6667.301,"end":6690.38,"text":"其實這個事情發展到現在如果這個是真的我現在是保留是這樣我覺得萬一是真的真的很恐怖這不光是一個這個人民遭到可能的一個監控第二個勒還對政黨的活動這是政黨的一個增防政治增防這是一個說真的比想像還要嚴重非常多的一個情況那我覺得今天那NCC這個"},{"start":6692.532,"end":6721.035,"text":"陳主委我覺得一個機關一個機構我們是首長其實很多責任都要負但我們自己做錯事情我們自己要負我們下屬假設你的處長在外面亂說亂講或做錯一些事情你也難免跑不掉一些責任你就說對不對剛剛我們這個新的我們速發部部長如果你的次長在外面亂說或是犯錯你覺得你要不要負一點責任可能也要嘛對不對那我就要請教一下"},{"start":6722.318,"end":6738.235,"text":"我就請教一下這個因為其實現在應該是除了這些機關之外我就覺得很奇怪我們賴總統剛上任那他對這件事的立場到底說法"},{"start":6739.176,"end":6760.459,"text":"到底是什麼?因為我們只看到他5月25日針對於青鳥活動發了一個很感動的文我特別注意其中洪志最重要的他說更重要的是人民的基本權利需要受到保護不能任意侵犯人民的基本權利需要受到保護不能任意侵犯"},{"start":6761.516,"end":6788.408,"text":"他在525發文欸就一天之後王大哥就上台去講了所以賴總統出來講講話嘛因為你最關心的人的基本權利已經正在被監控正在欺販所以我覺得這個部分很奇怪啊再來今天我也沒到的另外你們剛剛講說如果你的下屬你的主管如果出了什麼錯你們都難逃一些的不管是政治責任也好"},{"start":6790.394,"end":6816.962,"text":"欸這奇怪啊王玉川不是路人甲欸他是民進黨政策會的執行長是一級的主管他是黨務的主管他上面除了秘書長就是主席啊我的天啊你們各個機關我們的員工可能犯錯你都會覺得有點不好意思我們的主管犯錯你要出來幫忙去做一個說明就是這樣嘛到現在賴總統請你出來說說話"},{"start":6819.686,"end":6833.593,"text":"賴主席你的黨務主管在節目上講這樣的讓人民憂心的事情請你出來面對黨務主管做這樣的事情如果都不用面對胡亂吞早就過去的話那怎麼去弄"},{"start":6834.824,"end":6835.064,"text":"今天是6月幾號?"},{"start":6856.107,"end":6884.921,"text":"今天是6月3日6月3日,所以是6月3日早上第一次接到這個案子的檢舉嗎?沒有,我們...6件,有6件了主委說真的啦,不管你是7月走不走或怎麼樣我是不知道啦,拜託一下好不好不要在這邊亂扯嘛我說,我只問一下,你幹嘛跟林國城委員說委員你要不要現在檢舉,你檢舉我就辦找錯人檢舉了,同樣的案子你還叫他檢舉嗎?是剛才林國城委員當場具名檢舉我知道嘛,之前有沒有人檢舉,來"},{"start":6886.101,"end":6887.222,"text":"最早幾月幾號選舉?來,最早的?最早的?對嘛"},{"start":6896.539,"end":6922.759,"text":"所以今天跟李國成委員檢不檢舉已經有人檢舉了好不好我覺得立委有人說立委也沒有多大我也認為嘛我們平常就是大家就要檢舉一般的民眾檢舉就是檢舉了你到底辦到怎麼樣你現在現在了解清楚嗎我覺得所有的身份都很清楚所以我們第一時間第一個先調查這個通訊這個資料的部分我們請上到電視業者來嘛那第二個來講的話這個有沒有落實事實查證的部分我們會請那個所謂的那個"},{"start":6925.595,"end":6942.064,"text":"我們吊債來處理然後意見陳述去處理這個議題依照法定程序去處理我希望齁這個罰60萬嘛齁你罰中天龍雀雄在上面講說是不是有監控的你當時的理由我最後念完就算了齁他說這邊你主要的理由齁"},{"start":6943.204,"end":6966.917,"text":"主持人為進一步詢問跟進行事實查證嚴重誤導民眾因參與政治活動致通訊資料遭收集造成個人資料外洩的恐慌損及民眾對於國家保障人民秘密通訊自由等等這是你在那一年"},{"start":6969.217,"end":6989.604,"text":"給中天的60萬的罰單內容我在看起來現在有過之而無不及我們希望查案的速度快一點我們希望你這個針對媒體類似情況的時候能夠快速了解能夠解決問題謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝魯明哲委員的發言"},{"start":6995.638,"end":7017.236,"text":"下一位請許富奎委員發言好,謝謝主席。我們有請書法部黃部長好,部長請"},{"start":7027.467,"end":7054.162,"text":"部長早安部長剛剛本席就您在剛剛的專案報告裡面有提到一個結語的部分就是說就技術層面來講的確可能運用手機的訊號分析個人的資料但除非同時取得所謂基地台的號碼跟帳戶客戶資料庫的資料進行交叉比對否則無法得知特定的一個年齡的分布是不是有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":7056.519,"end":7081.486,"text":"對,對。但是重點是就是要做去識別化,沒有錯。部長,那我請教一般我們在什麼狀況之下會做這樣的處理?那個資料的應用,因為剛剛講說我們數位經濟需要資料使用嘛。那基本上資料是可以有它的價值。那做完去識別化以後,在法規的允許之下是可以做一些統計的分析跟處理。"},{"start":7082.886,"end":7100.004,"text":"對部長因為我們現在目前我們許多的縣市他們所謂辦一個大型的活動或一些商業的行為都需要一個大數據分析那他們可以照相關規定來跟我們的業者提出申請嗎但是我想個資保護的部分也是我們這個捍衛人權很重要的一個關鍵那目前"},{"start":7101.245,"end":7120.691,"text":"為止我想我們從各部會首長到我們的公務同仁系統我想大家都在依法行政那所以這部分我們另外再請教一下陳主委的部分請教主委那我們NCC就現行的一個機制如何去查驗電信驗者提供給外界的資料是否有去識別化怎樣做驗證"},{"start":7121.671,"end":7148.007,"text":"我們基本上來講依法規定來講的話電信業者都有這個所謂的個人資料安全維護計畫這個維護計畫裡面那我們會定期的去檢查而且那個電信業者也必須去內控去處理還有我們的這個定型化企業裡面都有相關的規定對主委因為現在對這大的爭議就是大家一直在質疑我們到底這個整個集合的一個制度這個對業者的一個管控的部分到底有沒有落實"},{"start":7148.948,"end":7160.749,"text":"是不是有私底下洩密的一個狀況這部分能不能再做一個具體說明我請我通常把我們那個集合的那個流程還有那個他們電信業者得到那個國際認證的部分跟委員前面說明一下"},{"start":7162.846,"end":7185.84,"text":"報告委員,因為我們三大電信業者都上市公司,而且是國際級的公司目前三大業者,我們ACC除了push他們朝向ISO認證以外目前三大業者都有通過國際相關機構的ISO或英國的BSI就是國際標準的一些認證,比如說ISO27001等等等"},{"start":7186.861,"end":7215.748,"text":"這些東西都是遵循國際的規範將這個制度建立在他們整體的公司文化和內控機制上面以上所以我想我們的電信業者應該不會自打嘴巴不會破壞他們自己的商譽因為這個要有相關法律責任的議題對所以這部分因為我們現在是數位的時代所以我們也是希望我們諸位包含我們數位部大家要來審慎面對這樣的一個議題我想這個議題不會今天在委員會問就結束了"},{"start":7216.308,"end":7216.528,"text":"我們請一下我們次長"},{"start":7248.224,"end":7267.938,"text":"公務員報告．法務部所主管的檢察官只有就個案的電信紀錄他就個案上才有就個案偵辦經過法官允許的調取票之後才可以調取相關的電信紀錄沒有通盤性的相關通信紀錄的分析跟資料庫沒有對阿所以不是外傳這樣子啦齁 大家都弄什麼歐洲料在那裡"},{"start":7270.418,"end":7294.395,"text":"好那另外我想除了這個監控的部分那另外我想針對打造的部分我目前科徵法裡面並沒有納入所謂一個設備端的一個通信監察所謂一個俗稱的一個小木馬進行這個犯罪嫌疑人監控那請教我們的數位部還是NCC目前是我們台灣沒有能力開發這個設備端的一個通信監察技術嗎未來是不是有辦法來做一個改善"},{"start":7296.188,"end":7316.082,"text":"各位報告那設備端監控的部分那涉及到這個技術本身要有第三方來驗證跟技術成熟的部分所以在國家還沒有這個這方技術第三方驗證的機制還沒起被狀況之下法務部的就是科技政策法就是木馬植入的木馬監控這部分我們新的這個科技政策法並沒有把修法進去"},{"start":7317.463,"end":7343.769,"text":"但是這個部分我想我們還是一樣要跟外界說明清楚這畢竟這個大家都在關心這個議題還有另外一個針對我們非外界的公共機關這個洩漏各自的情形不斷包含像我們一些的大型的一個企業的公司都有這樣一個訊息像華航、中華電信即使在修法仍然產生各自外界的情形那這部分我們相關的對應單位我們有沒有什麼樣一個方法、一個措施"},{"start":7346.335,"end":7362.307,"text":"報告委員關於這個比如說以電信事業來講的話如果有涉及到非公務機關洩漏個資我們都會進行相關的裁罰這個是電信公司必須要負責如果說他所掌握的個資被非法使用或洩漏的話這個必須依法去裁罰我們有相關的案例"},{"start":7363.456,"end":7387.787,"text":"好 謝謝那最後我再請教一下我們數位部黃部長部長上次本席在質詢的時候一直有提到我們屏東的這個數位發展落後的一個狀況那根據本席調查的資料我們在112年的部分像我們屏東縣完全都沒有所謂一個數位發展的一個成熟區那數位發展一個懵懂區有17個是全台最多的那另外就是"},{"start":7389.264,"end":7406.861,"text":"平東的那個發展的一個盲洞區有103個平東就占了六分之一那針對我們這樣一個資訊落後的部分我們有沒有什麼樣的一個盡情的作為我們一直在這邊就做這個平衡這個所謂數位落差還有用這個電信普及基金來做補助我是不是請那個是"},{"start":7409.053,"end":7409.273,"text":"事後再補資料給委員"},{"start":7438.558,"end":7445.923,"text":"好,謝謝許富奎委員的發言,休息十分鐘。待會等陳素月委員質詢完畢,我們處理臨時提案,謝謝。"},{"start":7471.755,"end":7471.815,"text":"本集完"},{"start":7476.73,"end":7476.75,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7497.52,"end":7500.404,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7529.378,"end":7545.022,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7547.381,"end":7548.101,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7583.406,"end":7585.266,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7638.371,"end":7645.637,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7662.142,"end":7679.497,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":7682.312,"end":7708.882,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":7723.178,"end":7737.726,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7743.114,"end":7772.858,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7795.362,"end":7795.682,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7801.054,"end":7801.955,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7816.289,"end":7830.398,"text":"等下等下 我要去看那個 今天哥倆為什麼要去看 現在那個柳毅委員會議我要上節目啊 我今天上我剛剛上的節目你要找人家 你不找人家 我要上照康啊 我今天要上的節目"},{"start":7837.603,"end":7838.404,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7851.876,"end":7857.698,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7874.172,"end":7893.439,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7898.277,"end":7911.582,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7928.08,"end":7957.585,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7962.154,"end":7977.533,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7981.219,"end":7994.068,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8002.099,"end":8002.279,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8030.63,"end":8031.534,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8048.845,"end":8049.345,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8066.817,"end":8081.067,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8084.871,"end":8095.34,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8116.557,"end":8120.661,"text":"好,下一位請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":8148.012,"end":8153.356,"text":"謝謝主席我們請那個NCCNCC陳主委好那主委請教你就是說現在針對個人的"},{"start":8171.699,"end":8186.54,"text":"不是官方的其實我是認為請個人的不適合啦那不過就是說我們要整體去思考就是官方在處理事情的時候到底有什麼原則那符不符合社會的期待"},{"start":8187.952,"end":8215.265,"text":"所以就針對這一個用大數據去了解整個社群的動態是這個在法上是合法的話對不對對就是說跟委員報告一下其實我們在討論上個資還有數據其實應該說明有點區別了對個資去識別化以後不可回溯以後它就會變Big Data的一種那Big Data就是我們數位經濟數位產業在運用的一個非常重要的基礎資料"},{"start":8216.405,"end":8241.826,"text":"好,那這個在個人資料保護法這個我們都有提到是那另外就是說其實電信公司在跟個人簽約的時候這裡有一條是說用戶個人資料收集在底下那一條處理或利用的限制跟條件對也就是說你在簽這個電信的契約的時候通常都會簽嘛對不對有"},{"start":8242.927,"end":8256.062,"text":"那你可以用來做資料收集處理跟利用他有他的限制跟條件那這個也是合法啦那不過這一次像青鳥行動那有一些年輕人會覺得說哇我會被"},{"start":8259.341,"end":8279.797,"text":"會被調查那會不會洩漏到我的個資那在以我們的官方或者是電信公司的講法是說我都會跟你去世別犯你放心啦但是事實上人民就是不放心嘛當然所以我的主張是說可不可以要求在簽這個契約的時候比如說在這個第7條"},{"start":8281.198,"end":8307.837,"text":"用戶個人資料收集處理及利用之限制條件這個是我們都懂但是人民可能會擔心那你可不可以把這個識別去識別化把它加進去如果要修改因為第一個委員所講是電信管理第17條這個規定那如果有必要的話我們在未來這種行動寬頻的服務契約把它要求得更清楚應該是可以去處理所以我的意思就是NCC能夠跟各大電信公司聯絡就是說"},{"start":8310.509,"end":8336.392,"text":"我使用你這個資料如果做大數據是合法的我們都會口頭講說你放心我們都會去世別化但是這個口頭講的有時候人民在擔心的情況之下如果你把它去世別化就把它標明在上面嘛你放心嘛我就不可能個別資料給你寫下去這樣那這個部分如果有加注這些在條文裡面在契約裡面我相信人民的那一個"},{"start":8337.782,"end":8357.663,"text":"我覺得不信任感或覺得有可能個人資料被侵害的心態就可以減少所以這個部分是不是請主委能夠我們NCC能夠跟這些電信公司做一個整體的溝通然後把這個去識別化的字白紙黑字把它寫到裡面去"},{"start":8358.968,"end":8359.208,"text":"這個應該不用兩個月嗎?"},{"start":8381.708,"end":8401.258,"text":"不用一個半月我希望你卸任前把它完成現在是6月初嘛主委7月底卸任嘛7月底替人民再做一件有意義的事我們是馬上去處理我們盡快來處理還是給我們兩個月的時間好不好我們就去處理了兩個月你就卸任啦"},{"start":8408.342,"end":8434.879,"text":"先任前讓人民說我在處理所有大數據的時候電信公司也有白紙黑字證明說我們一定會趨勢變化所以這一部分人民以後你就可以少掉這些疑慮對啊你看我們可以看這些例子像台灣燈會在台中"},{"start":8435.96,"end":8448.814,"text":"盧秀燕他們也會去統計嘛我來這邊的人所有的來參加燈會包括新北耶誕城包括台北跨年晚會這個人流分析都很正常 對不對我的背景資料"},{"start":8450.137,"end":8475.267,"text":"整體的來這邊的背景、來這邊的年齡層、來這邊的狀況他們都可以提供大數據做分析我們稱之為叫輪廓性的資料就是說比如說20到40、40到60年紀、性別或是一個背景的輪廓性的資料是可以這個其實都是合法可以做分析、合法可以去買的沒錯"},{"start":8476.327,"end":8492.72,"text":"所以就是說我今天如果我個人有興趣我許志杰個人有興趣我也可以去跟電信公司說我要買你們這一部分的大數據的資料不過現在電信公司就了解來講他們通常還是商業用途的如果比較有正式性的他們比較會有疑慮的"},{"start":8494.611,"end":8505.856,"text":"商業用途完全沒有疑慮政治性的他們會考量他們會考量這個數據要不要那個其實如果是你去識別化去識別化我是覺得"},{"start":8507.472,"end":8525.853,"text":"不管誰去買都是屬於商業嘛對所以說比如說我個人想要了解台灣燈會我個人想要了解台北市跨年晚會的人流的分析是是是所以他們很難做區別對這沒有什麼政治性嘛這是我個人想要了解嘛那你有做這個大數據的分析我就花錢買嘛"},{"start":8526.814,"end":8543.444,"text":"沒錯,這個做公共政策上是很大的用途所以應該這個讓國人很清楚就是說你只要是大數據的部分只要是你用商業的角度誰都可以去買而且誰去買的資料都完全100%去識別化你放心"},{"start":8544.504,"end":8571.55,"text":"這樣子大家就很清楚啦所以這個部分希望說主委就是7月底前能夠把這件事情完成你7月底前那個是不是不管是如果再有質詢的機會如果沒有的話也把那個結果給我辦公室我們會用書面來跟委員會就是說這一個部分我們已經很確實白石英是改過了我覺得這個真的是一件功德讓人民不用擔心嘛"},{"start":8572.15,"end":8593.809,"text":"好不好?好,謝謝謝謝委員,謝謝好,謝謝許智傑委員的發言下一位請陳素月委員發言陳素月委員發言完畢以後我們處理臨時提案謝謝主席,請主席邀請陳主委還有黃部長好,黃部長請"},{"start":8603.008,"end":8606.634,"text":"王毅川先生在5月27日上政論節目的時候針對青鳥行動還有519民眾黨的活動"},{"start":8623.353,"end":8643.622,"text":"發言的內容引發了大家對於電信數據分析的使用的一些爭議事實上我們看到有關電信大數據的分析的運用是有利可循的而且是目前科技時代我們應該是我們在數據使用上的一部分"},{"start":8644.202,"end":8658.812,"text":"那我們看到包括就是新北也好臺北也好有關這個耶誕城的活動快年晚會或者是有關這個交通部對於這個智慧道路交通擁塞路段的一個大數據的一個分析或者是說有關"},{"start":8660.213,"end":8680.11,"text":"內政部對於全國電信信任人口的統計資料等等都是會運用電信數據的分析不過我想今天大家的爭議點可能就是說對於電信資料分析的使用有沒有去侵犯到個人人民的權益"},{"start":8682.112,"end":8699.126,"text":"事實上我想對於個人資料保護這樣子的是一個重要的人權這是不容侵犯的所以我們也希望就是說政府機關或者是一般我們的人民對這樣子的觀念都一定要這樣觀念而且我們政府機關也一定要"},{"start":8699.846,"end":8700.086,"text":"．首席"},{"start":8713.79,"end":8741.775,"text":"報告委員基本上依照我們電管法的第17條還有我們的要求我們有一個叫做那個個人資料維護辦法我們要求電信業者這個他們本來就是有所謂個人資料的維護計畫那我們依照這個計畫會定期去集合要求他們落實那個內控另外一個在這個行動寬屏的服務契約裡面對這個部分我們業者也要規範清楚而且要明確告知當事人"},{"start":8743.539,"end":8759.299,"text":"我們一定有一定的規範所以這樣子的規範下的數據資料就是說剛剛主委在回答其他委員的質詢的時候有提到這個是可以透過申請購買的管道取得如果已經變成數據的話"},{"start":8768.508,"end":8780.459,"text":"對,就是一定要去識別化。那我在這邊再請教一下就是說,針對王逸川他這樣子的發言啊,他曾經跟我們就是相關的電信公司取得相關的資料嘛,就您的了解。"},{"start":8780.885,"end":8799.992,"text":"就我們在5月30日調查三大電信業者都表示並沒有有這種情況出現所以說王宇春先生並沒有跟他們去說取得或是購買這些相關的資料是沒有跟我們三大電信業者取得那如果說有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎"},{"start":8800.84,"end":8815.497,"text":"這個可能要問王佑川先生才知道因為做大數據分析的基本上來說電信公司以外還有很多的民間比如說資訊服務公司、服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析"},{"start":8816.178,"end":8816.578,"text":"短短的兩天25、26號我們"},{"start":8832.527,"end":8849.268,"text":"有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎?就那個黃部長您瞭解的話,我們民間業者有這個能力做這些相關的一個分析嗎?就是說資料散佈在不同系統,那你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可,那會有行政的流程"},{"start":8849.949,"end":8875.646,"text":"那我個人啦我個人覺得這個時間而且剛剛講幾萬筆資料要去做去識別的話而且要再做這些統計分析應該沒辦法那麼快做得到應該沒有辦法對技術上可行但時間上包括行政流程包括拿到許可包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料的而且是從這個很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆再去比對我覺得這個"},{"start":8877.347,"end":8905.756,"text":"應該會有它的困難度這是我的從技術面判斷就我們NCC陳竺耳跟黃部長這邊所回覆的就是說就我們管理單位那個相關的這個三大業者也沒有提供那我們就技術層面來說在短短的幾天之內兩天之內要做這樣子而且這個還要經過管理機關的一個同意包括這個基地台服務的用戶號等等這些取得不是那麼容易"},{"start":8906.556,"end":8931.696,"text":"所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入了這個司法調查的一個程序我們就留待這個司法單位去做進一步的一個偵查跟了解那在這邊本席要針對就是說事實上有關這個資安的問題不管是個人資料的一個保護這個是不變的一個原則然後"},{"start":8932.737,"end":8950.334,"text":"其實國家資安也是非常的一個重要那我們也希望就是說我們不分朝野啦我們對這個個人資料保護的一個重視還有這個資安的一個重視我們應該都是要一致的啦那我們也知道就是說有關這個抖音、TikTok或者小紅書的一個使用"},{"start":8950.894,"end":8969.843,"text":"目前就我們看到了美國媒體也有揭露就是說證實這個TikTok大約就是每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資包括這些資料包括就是美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計"},{"start":8971.283,"end":8993.236,"text":"的訊息。然後抖音的前員工也有證實就是說這些他們會把用戶的個資傳回這個中共所以這個對於我們的這個個資的一個侵害是非常的一個嚴重所以我們也希望我們我們國內不分朝野不分政府人民都要去共同面對跟重視這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":8994.577,"end":9018.419,"text":"那這個對TikTok因為在我們臺灣沒有落地那未來不曉得就是說在這樣子的一個狀況下他如果未來也不可能配合落地那目前這樣子的狀況之下我們書畫部對於TikTok的就是說相關的就是訊息的一個使用我們有沒有什麼強制的手段去做一個維護"},{"start":9020.559,"end":9048.037,"text":"報告委員就是當然就是說我們這個我們的打就是說我們現在打造法通過之後會要求他們落地那如果不落地我們就根據打造法來來處置那但這個處置方法可以包括就是包括可能就是反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制他這樣子所以我想這個我們還是期待先用法律先要求他們落地那再從落地不配合我們再來處置這樣根據處罰辦法"},{"start":9050.098,"end":9053.021,"text":"好,謝謝陳素月委員的發言我們現在處理臨時提案本日共有二案,請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":9083.342,"end":9098.742,"text":"臨時提案一再無正當法律授權自前提下取得未具識別化自群眾資料用於政治偵訪與群眾運動之數據分析恐違反通訊保障及監察法、個人資料保護法等相關規定時有限"},{"start":9099.262,"end":9127.163,"text":"此有為我國人權保障之意旨更有損我國自由民主之國家形象原始未釐清爭議請國家通訊傳播委員會於一個月內清查近三屆總統、副總統之下市長及縣市長選舉期間國內政治活動之群眾各自是否遭不當使用或有外洩之予向交通委員會提交書面報告提案人委員盧明哲等"},{"start":9128.445,"end":9147.106,"text":"臨時提案2我國雖通過個人資料保護法但人權缺對個資運用資監管制度與明確規範亦未規定去識別化及合理運用個資之範圍不但造成民眾個資外洩引誘政府或"},{"start":9148.85,"end":9166.931,"text":"業者運用相關資料實役無所是從中上提案要求個人資料保護委員會籌備處會同國家通訊傳播委員會數位發展部及相關機關就政府機關與民間業者之各自運用規定去識別化"},{"start":9168.254,"end":9197.251,"text":"合理運用範圍及監管機制等四項建立完整制度並每三個月以書面向立法院交通委員會提出進度報告以利國家數位發展與個資保護提案人委員林國成等宣布完畢好,請問各位委員第一案有沒有意見?沒有啊?有嗎?沒有就通過啦"},{"start":9199.724,"end":9227.793,"text":"好通訊會來說明主席各位委員大家好關於那個臨時提案第一案裡面我們那個修正建議的部分已經請各位委員著參了那我們是建議第一個因為這個要這個相關資料其實那個數目字來講的話是放的蠻廣的那所以我們建議說這個時間可不可以給我們是三個月而且我們剛才也請教過這些相關的"},{"start":9228.633,"end":9242.527,"text":"電信業者裡面來講的話他們的資料呢大概是以最近才一年內的為主了那另外剛才這個提案裡面後面有個國內政治活動是群眾個資因為個資的範圍非常非常的大那我們本會呢"},{"start":9243.848,"end":9244.968,"text":"你這個要三個月幹什麼啊我告訴你15天就弄好了"},{"start":9270.27,"end":9285.073,"text":"我沒有向你要什麼東西,向你要什麼嗎?我有跟你講說要清查以前總統、副總統什麼職家市長選舉的什麼東西嗎?那已經過去的事情了,你也講你也查不到資料了嘛,是不是?"},{"start":9286.013,"end":9301.984,"text":"那就是說這裡面就講說你有沒有去介入這裡面的問題有就有沒有就沒有嘛你就打死不認賬啊你會承認嗎你會承認嗎你報告還沒寫我就已經知道你報告要寫什麼了我告訴你啦這要三個月喔"},{"start":9306.767,"end":9333.06,"text":"我跟你講15天就夠了報告召委他這個資料他還是要向三大業者來索取嘛那你跟公家機關公家機關你可以要他15天內一個月內要交出我跟妳報告齁三大業者會承認啦那承認的話準備明天去坐牢啦我跟你講啦他不會承認打死不認賬嘛就跟你去外面偷女人一樣的道理你回去跟老婆會講嗎"},{"start":9334.517,"end":9335.037,"text":"李昆哲委員"},{"start":9366.826,"end":9382.701,"text":"啊?你講過魯敏哲委員報告主席好,你先講沒關係他說三個月嘛,折衷兩個月就好了啦等一下,發言完畢再說來,魯敏哲委員先講"},{"start":9386.353,"end":9406.956,"text":"謝謝主席其實這個其他的文字修正我覺得我們都可以接受啦除了三屆這個總統副總統你說一年之內我覺得這個我們可以接受啦然後就針對各自的範圍就三家行動這個電信事業這個部分我覺得也OK啦但是你這個多久提這個報告"},{"start":9408.297,"end":9437.388,"text":"我覺得你改成三個月要不要改成就是提供報告在陳耀祥卸任之後兩個月之後卸任以後啊卸任之後不是三個月因為現在目前看起來不知道任期只要你陳主委你已經走人了啊對所以一個月的意思就是說你又推喔我們希望在這一個任期之內因為現在六月了一個月之內能夠提供給我們這樣的一個報告7月底以前好不好不要然後"},{"start":9439.025,"end":9453.284,"text":"不是他7月31號提出來他8月1號走人啊還不一樣呢報告委員NCC我只是一個過客而已啊我走後面還有NCC還是在啊什麼過客你是主任委員一個過客對啦那我7月31你早一點講嘛你早一點講我們早一點把你幹掉啊"},{"start":9454.045,"end":9460.75,"text":"那個行政機關要兩個月、三個月本席沒有什麼特別意見但是我是覺得竟然要叫他們寫報告我是覺得只有針對政治活動選舉活動的這個這種個資等等我是覺得這樣不夠"},{"start":9483.274,"end":9511.988,"text":"我覺得應該要直接就像本席剛剛質詢也特別去提到資料的運用地方政府也在用公司行號也在用然後到底什麼東西是可以用什麼東西是不可以用我覺得這個報告裡面應該含括除了魯明哲委員所提的這些資料以外竟然給他比較多的時間所以本席建議應該要把那個太陽把它弄出來"},{"start":9513.545,"end":9535.054,"text":"讓立法院瞭解也讓社會去瞭解說現在這些資訊的販售它的運用裡面我看到太多的包括地方政府全台灣各地的地方政府不論是藍執政、綠執政大家都在運用這些大數據的資訊然後公司行號我看也在運用這個大數據所以應該這個報告裡面詳細來署名"},{"start":9539.187,"end":9557.516,"text":"什麼叫做大數據可運用的範圍那什麼是不可以被運用的我覺得這個太陽也請在這個報告裡面一併讓立法院跟社會大眾去了解這樣對個資的保護才全面不是我們我們談這個不是只有限於政治的活動"},{"start":9558.852,"end":9573.292,"text":"或選舉我認為這樣不是太充足不過副縣長他主要在突選這一次侵犯人權所涉及到的政治活動主要是這個你如果把其他的太陽啦其他的資料全都放進來的話"},{"start":9574.614,"end":9595.968,"text":"反而無法凸顯這個政治活動的這裡面我們所提的主題會偏離了當然會寫一本書但其中可能只有一兩頁是牽涉到這裡面主席這個我沒有意見因為你有個人各朝野政黨各委員有各自的立場我都尊重那本席提要把我的意見講清楚"},{"start":9596.368,"end":9611.689,"text":"我知道人權的侵犯問題我們今天很簡單嘛今天大家談的是什麼大家談的是希望各自保護人權不要有侵犯對人權的保障那我認為這個題目中我剛剛的質詢我也再一次強調我不把主席的格局做小嘛"},{"start":9612.19,"end":9628.636,"text":"我認為主席是一個很有格局、大格局的人所以我想主席應該是對於整體國家人權的保障、個資的保護我想應該站在這個角度我們來做一個全面性的檢討當然你要檢討這個案我本席也不反對我剛剛已經講過了好 謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝副院長羅志強委員"},{"start":9633.186,"end":9657.396,"text":"大家都知道我對我們陳耀祥主委向來沒有什麼正面評價今天我第一次正式的肯定你為什麼呢你赤裸裸的陽謀很簡單嘛三個月後你就拍拍屁股走人嘛那為什麼要肯定你因為你也知道不要幫王逸川背書嘛你也不想穿透這個混水可能也跟你沒有關係可是我要特別講今天王逸川"},{"start":9658.456,"end":9678.994,"text":"他今天變身為天眼局對人民做政治爭訪這是直接侵害民主的核心也侵害人民的權益所以我覺得雖然我們陳主委可能不想要幫王逸川擔但是人民等得起這三個月嗎"},{"start":9680.342,"end":9695.316,"text":"人民其實想要的是一個盡快的答案抱歉我覺得不只是人民喔這個提案我非常贊成我覺得我們檢察機關也應該要動起來了吧現在我們的王一川已經在改口在串供啦已經在改口啦"},{"start":9696.577,"end":9723.599,"text":"從天眼局變成膝蓋局啊現在已經說是用膝蓋想我說三大電信可以廢了啦三大電信公司你們比不過王逸川的膝蓋啦你們還要一堆程序去才能夠申請到這一台資料然後去比對這個手機訊號才能夠做所謂的那個識別化的一個訊息或去識別化的訊息王逸川不用啦他用膝蓋就可以了啦他用膝蓋就可以了這邊我也要跟民進黨呼籲一下"},{"start":9724.827,"end":9734.847,"text":"你們不要忘了王逸川不是王逸川啊王逸川是民進黨政策會執行長也是民進黨不分區的立委的名單上接下來排行就是他啦"},{"start":9736.596,"end":9736.736,"text":"徐志杰委員"},{"start":9767.106,"end":9778.383,"text":"主席大家好我還是呼應一下剛才那個蔡其昌委員提到的就是說我們希望說什麼是可以合法去買"},{"start":9779.95,"end":9807.707,"text":"什麼事要去識別化你要把整體的資料這樣子一個方向大數據的狀況很清楚的告訴國人就像我剛才質詢的一樣也就是你今天我不管是不是政治是不是商業你今天任何人要去買的大數據的資料你就是有權利可以去買這就是商業嘛那你今天你在我人民會覺得恐慌你要如何去識別化"},{"start":9808.686,"end":9824.051,"text":"你把它定在條約裡面或者是你把它定在契約裡面或者是你把它很清楚地讓人民知道我所作所為完全就是大數據的提供任何的個人的資料如果有被洩漏的我們就法律處理"},{"start":9825.251,"end":9847.45,"text":"很清楚 這個不是 這個就是一個正常的一個行為嘛但是要要求 我要怎麼樣讓人民不擔心 讓合法的可以去購買我是覺得應該是整體考量所以剛剛蔡吉昌委員提到了 我是認為說你就是整體中華電信 三大電信要給我們一個這樣子的交代嘛好 謝謝許志堅委員 陳樹委員發言下面游浩委員 翁曉霖委員"},{"start":9853.461,"end":9869.17,"text":"謝謝主席就是這個對個人資料保護是基本的人權我想這個都是不容侵犯的所以我也呼應我們蔡啟昌副院長的他的一個主張就是我們對於這個資料的一個保護我們就是要有一致性"},{"start":9870.271,"end":9870.591,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9890.967,"end":9891.207,"text":"謝謝何主委員 下面有號委員"},{"start":9917.588,"end":9930.783,"text":"主席你給我改信啊你給我改信啊主席還沒睡醒啊睡完對不起啊我沒有睡覺我沒有睡覺好 有沒有人"},{"start":9932.708,"end":9955.755,"text":"謝謝三位那我其實認為目前來講黃玉川的這案其實社會大家都在關注那搶救玉川天兵這個大家都在關注那所以說其實在大概大家不管是藍綠的委員都提到個資很重要嘛人權不用侵犯嘛那其實在目前來講NCC這個三個月兩個月其實都太久了"},{"start":9956.515,"end":9972.291,"text":"其實大家都在共同矚目這個案子到底他是如何取得這些去世文化的資料所以其實是建議說也要讓我們不管是中華電信或是三大電信業者能夠趕快證明清白應該是要在兩個禮拜之內的話就要公布這個報告跟數據了謝謝"},{"start":9979.873,"end":10002.466,"text":"是在這邊跟各位委員報告因為其實NCC他主管的是電信管理法所以在這裡的提案裡面只有說這個數據分析恐違反通訊保障監察法、個資法等等相關法規我建議還再加上電信管理法恐違反電信管理法然後並且也要要求就是這三家電信業者那麼"},{"start":10003.612,"end":10026.826,"text":"他們在這個就是要調查的這段期間裡面然後所販售給其他這個私人公司的所有的這些資料都應該要提報這以上建議這裡面就是執政黨反對黨嘛執政黨講的是人權嘛公開等等"},{"start":10027.745,"end":10053.985,"text":"那反正講的就是看不見的那隻手啦你如果說大數據去買賣OK啦問題就不是搞買賣嘛私底下提供嘛問題出在這裡那你現在要大數據你要中華電信要業者三大業者去提供你打死他他也不會認賬啊所以這個時間為什麼要三個月我真搞不懂所以陳主委你要退休了你看你把時間就如同那個羅德強委員講的好來"},{"start":10057.493,"end":10081.114,"text":"謝主席我想這樣子大家只卡在時間啦齁時間我想折衷一下啦齁三個月不是會期中間你突然提個報告我們也沒開會我覺得這樣子實在不好那最多最多就7月16號我們現在演會演到7月16號那正好一個半月的時間剛好今天2號嘛齁就一個半月的時間好不好7月16你也不會來啊我知道但至少是在他送來了嗎已經5點了"},{"start":10083.171,"end":10103.172,"text":"我是建議啦最多最多我們是希望一個月但是我想最多就一個半月至少我們在會期的期間能夠拿到這個報告剩下看主席能夠裁示至於說如果有其他的公司甚至政府的大數據資料我們看到我們副院長剛剛有提到的我個人也支持啦可能另外邀請"},{"start":10103.933,"end":10103.993,"text":"7月15日"},{"start":10120.195,"end":10149.218,"text":"7月15日你不要再講了啦你再講的話就變成7月3日等一下現在才6月3日這個很快嘛我告訴你我當你的下面10天就提供給你的啦你知道嗎你下面打死不認帳的啦你放心啦你把打死他都不會認帳啦7月15好不好郭正雄這你提到案子嗎"},{"start":10151.283,"end":10159.21,"text":"我這魯明哲提的嘛,魯明哲委員提的7月15好不好?7月15啦齁?那個蔡副院長勒?就這個問題啦,很單純"},{"start":10166.311,"end":10192.812,"text":"那蔡委員長所提的齁,那可以啦,我們譽為反犯的話,那個可以弄一本出來?報告主席,蔡委員長所提的那個事在第二案裡面是可以處理的,第二案裡面有這個部分是可以處理的好不好好不好,蔡委員長我們很尊重他啦好不好齁而且他在這邊講話都直立有聲啦齁,我們也不得不尊重好不好,這樣好不好阿兄,可以齁?好好謝謝,好第一案齁"},{"start":10196.224,"end":10213.235,"text":"什麼還念一下?誰改了下面?就一個月半嘛,就7月15日以前嘛,就這樣就好了,修正這幾個字,其他不動啦。誰改的?下面是誰改的?"},{"start":10215.008,"end":10243.897,"text":"有那個後面,因為我們提供的是行動通訊器所持有的個資,所以這要改,因為我們是三大事...那你們念一遍嘛,我沒改啊,是誰改的?是盧委員改的嗎?那現在把這個最後修正的請同仁念一下同仁念一下好了盧委員他下面有改喔?他下面有改?盧委員認真?拿給盧委員看一下"},{"start":10245.031,"end":10247.036,"text":"後面是NCC改的"},{"start":10253.315,"end":10275.973,"text":"臨時提案一倒數倒數第四行開始原此為釐清爭議請國家通訊傳播委員會於7月15日前清查最近清查最近一年內之總統副總統之下市長及縣市長選舉期間國內政治活動之群眾各自"},{"start":10277.392,"end":10289.539,"text":"三家行動電信事業系統所持有之個資是否遭不當使用或有外洩之餘向交通委員會提交書面報告。宣布完畢"},{"start":10321.633,"end":10335.323,"text":"修正通過修正通過可以啊,第二案沒聽清楚就算啦,誰叫他不聽第二案提案說明嘛"},{"start":10337.643,"end":10338.306,"text":"有沒有委員有意見?"},{"start":10341.243,"end":10366.644,"text":"來 我跟各位報告一下我不同意他們提出這個修改要6個月還有什麼只有針對電信業以及手機姓名我提案的這個主要是建議我們資料個人資料保護籌備處這裡要積極去做要做的問題就是它涵蓋除了電信之外"},{"start":10367.584,"end":10384.481,"text":"還包括APP啊LINE啊或這些東西要如何去做保障我要他是在三個月以內做這些但是這裡我同意也就是出自的提案要求行政院敬邀"},{"start":10385.302,"end":10398.446,"text":"也就是因為資料保護委員會籌備處他人員比較少所以我們把他加在競邀行政院以個人資料保護籌備處這裡會同國家安全還有數位部及有關單位這個部分我那個他原來的這個籌備籌備處這個修改這個原則性我是不同意我是同意"},{"start":10412.13,"end":10434.159,"text":"他們人不夠,我們就拜請我們行政院這裡啊,金腰行政院,這裡來做一個籌措,把各有關單位去做那個,原則性我還是保持三個人。郭董委員,你改的版本我們看不到啊。有啊。每個人都有嗎?有啊,每一個人都有啊。你那老半天我一個字都找不到。哪裡啊?"},{"start":10443.883,"end":10450.548,"text":"不是,你們沒有交出來,我們沒有看到好啦,他們又是在...倒數第七行有沒有"},{"start":10451.502,"end":10473.456,"text":"提案要求提案要求這邊勾進去行政院邀集,提案要求行政院邀集個人資料保護是行政院來邀集行政院邀集很奇怪,行政院誰啊?院長啊?他怎麼可以邀集這個?"},{"start":10476.178,"end":10500.031,"text":"不過關財兄你說提案要求行政院邀集,行政院那就秘書長齁我這個特別跟主席報告,原來我是要求個人資料保護籌備處他們來做我知道我知道我知道那如果是這樣行政院可以拿掉個人資料保護委員會籌備處去年成立的嘛是不是"},{"start":10501.891,"end":10525.112,"text":"對 是的掛牌是那叫你們單位幹什麼主席我可以說明一下你們就要繼續負責溝通協調的工作啊是是是好你講跟主席報告一下我們這邊應該是不用行政院應該是我們籌備出來就可以了這個先說明一下齁那不用到你說什麼你說什麼這個部分就是維持原提案就是由我們來會同相關的機關其實就可以了所以建議是可以不用到行政院不要行政院"},{"start":10525.632,"end":10528.174,"text":"等一下通訊傳播委員沒問題他會同你們啊還有數位發展部有沒有問題"},{"start":10555.148,"end":10584.307,"text":"沒問題?那這張都沒問題嗎?誰想有問題?他這邊還有改,他這邊要改改什麼?又改什麼?他要改一些有?副院長來郭誠胸的提案齁基本上沒有什麼問題但是裡面的問題在哪裡?就是郭誠胸如果按照他的原提案這個今天這些部會恐怕不夠因為個資的保護等等這些問題只要他有蒐集過你的資訊的行業通通要保護嘛"},{"start":10585.396,"end":10596.504,"text":"所以我看那個行政單位的建議他把他在所謂電信跟手機的信號對不對因為你談這些個資保護365行各行業他都有個資保護"},{"start":10603.12,"end":10618.75,"text":"你只要申請任何一個東西你都有可能個資的問題嘛所以你要把它你不當然會同國家通訊你連會同經濟部會同所有各等於所有各部會你都要了嘛所以我的意思就是說如果針對"},{"start":10620.23,"end":10621.571,"text":"郭忠雄,會員也是好意"},{"start":10643.888,"end":10658.393,"text":"因為你的牽涉太廣了,你不如就寫倒數一二三四五舊政府的部分,舊政府機關與民間業者的部分改為優先優先舊電信業者這樣就單純了嘛優先舊電信業者之手機信令信什麼令啊?"},{"start":10674.898,"end":10681.869,"text":"信號啦吼?這手機信號?這樣就好了嗎?"},{"start":10684.605,"end":10710.574,"text":"那6個月不要啦,3個月啦這個主席我再度建議啦個人資料保護委員會的籌備處他要做的是很廣大的這些個資的問題他現在要求我去把它改為只有電信這裡面沒有APP也沒有什麼其他包含啦,包含啦"},{"start":10710.974,"end":10735.273,"text":"所以這個部分我說實在的就變成NCC跟數位部他們只做他們那其他都不要做嗎所以我的意思就你可以優先去做什麼但是你還是要有個資保護所以我提這個案當然會很大很廣但是是你個人資料保護籌備處的責任嘛"},{"start":10740.605,"end":10758.104,"text":"主席我來幫國城兄再修正一下啦應該是這樣說啦其中有一段就不要了啦就數位發展部及相關機關沒有就是不用講那個政府機關跟民間業者啦你就直接他要的就是那個架構嘛就是"},{"start":10759.572,"end":10785.729,"text":"會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部及相關機關就各自運用規定去識別化合理與運用範圍及監管機制等事項這樣對嗎?好,就這樣那還是三個月喔?不是六個月喔?可以喔?好這個要表決嗎?"},{"start":10787.762,"end":10802.89,"text":"你們既然雙方都假動了,表決一下好了嘛送走啊,通通都假動了,來這邊不表決舉手一下不好玩啊好啦,就修正文字通過"},{"start":10808.468,"end":10833.348,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢,如果有委員對上述提案補簽的話,列入記錄並刊登公報。好,繼續我們請翁曉琳委員。所有委員對不起啊,我明明要喊陳素玉委員啊,怎麼弄錯啦?我說什麼?合啊?對不起啊,對不起。"},{"start":10838.262,"end":10840.848,"text":"謝謝主席主席辛苦了有請陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":10849.382,"end":10850.263,"text":"這是行之有你的事情"},{"start":10878.305,"end":10903.292,"text":"好行之永年的事情很好那人流分析的服務包含哪些項目基本上包含了用戶的基本資料數位通路足跡傳統電信數據和行動通信足跡以及還可以幫這個有需求的企業可以做客製化的提供特定的資訊大家看看這個用戶的基本資料包含什麼"},{"start":10903.792,"end":10932.606,"text":"年齡、性別、興趣、手機型號、信用的程度、數位、通路足跡、包含所有瀏覽過的網頁、行動通信足跡等等所停留的地點甚至還可以克制化業者的要求那麼我們到底現在的電信三大電信業者有沒有在做事實上當然是有而且他們可能已經做了好幾年了來請下一頁看看中華電信他們在他們自己的網頁上面所"},{"start":10934.295,"end":10944.532,"text":"提供的這個相關的資訊中華電信AI大數據的應用產品然後裡面有人潮客群分析平台他告訴你他可以收集了有多少的這個數據資料來下一頁"},{"start":10948.294,"end":10965.788,"text":"接下來大家看一看中華電信可以做到什麼程度他可以去進行客群分析包含現在的這個族群他是本國人還是大陸人還是外國人他的人潮分析的區域是在哪一個區域他都可以做到的非常精準"},{"start":10967.233,"end":10995.605,"text":"不僅如此我們再看看這個遠傳遠傳呢他也提供相關的人潮的這個大數據分析他還可以精準到他喜歡什麼樣的這個手機的品牌那麼他的年齡層他是屬於什麼樣的這個階級等等這樣的大數據分析依照現在電信管理法的角度來講這樣的做法合理嗎"},{"start":10996.479,"end":10997.501,"text":"是,所以NCC都沒有責任"},{"start":11008.783,"end":11027.997,"text":"而不是說沒有責任,而是說我們這個部分來講的話所以我們為什麼說我們管的就是說各自的保護這一塊這是一定要落實的那大數據這個部分來講的話當然比如說業者這邊來講的話他如果有肯逾越的這些比如說去識別化的這些要求或是不可迴逆的這個要求來講的話當然要注意"},{"start":11030.078,"end":11048.755,"text":"來我們看一下不僅是業者有這個需求內政部也是好他們做了電信性力的人口統計資料這都是運用基地台訊號可以進行非常廣泛的各式各樣的資訊的分析民間組織也可以依自身的需求彈性調整指標的權重在下頁大家知道嗎電信"},{"start":11050.636,"end":11067.659,"text":"內政部的電信信令人口統計資料還可以對外收費也就是說當時這些電信信令他是基於公共利益或是公共政策而做的這些統計資料還可以對外販售請問被收集資料的電信用戶知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":11068.587,"end":11097.506,"text":"我們這個相關的這些規定來講的話比如說我們的電信化企業裡面都有要求比如說在處理醫藥的部分這個我們現在看到在我們電信用戶的各自保護條款裡面最主要的法律就是電信管理法的第9條電信事業它必須要保存電信用戶的這個所產生的通信記錄以及賬戶記錄並且要給予一定的保密違反的話還有重罰好那下一頁那麼在相關的各自保護條款裡面我必須要說"},{"start":11098.727,"end":11112.431,"text":"NCC怠惰嚴重的違法失職大家看看我們在消保會101年這個當時修正的行動通信網路業務服務契約版本裡面有清楚的講就是這個電信業者"},{"start":11114.312,"end":11131.45,"text":"他所掌握的電信用戶的相關資料附有保密義務而且不得對第三人揭露這個條文到現在為止也沒有修所以呢我們現在看到所有的電信公司的相關的服務契約裡面的保密條款寫得非常非常簡單"},{"start":11132.791,"end":11155.151,"text":"對於所謂的去識別化這件事情是誰來認定去識別化的資訊是否已經達標是否符合我們的各自保護法以及我們的這個世界以及我們的GDPR等等相關法規是由業者自己說的算嗎?報告委員基本上來講的話我們有要求業者依照他們的所謂各自維護計畫去處理"},{"start":11157.264,"end":11174.625,"text":"我要講這就是NCC怠惰電信業者是你們所監理你們所要求這個他們要善盡保護電信用戶的個資這相關權益可是在過去這段時間裡面你們根本沒有修"},{"start":11177.046,"end":11203.281,"text":"這個相關的服務契約那麼以及對於民眾到底是不是知道他們自己的資料已經被用來分析以及民眾是不是應該要有相關的權利可以選擇退出這些數據分析計劃你們無作為在這個相關的電信化企業裡面來講話主體利用收集這個都有應該當時有告知那是非常抽象模糊請問在座的各位你們知道你們的"},{"start":11204.844,"end":11218.769,"text":"有哪些資訊是被電信事業所使用嗎以及他們所收集資料之後他們是怎麼樣的去再利用嗎我們一般的老百姓一般的電信用戶是完全無所知而您擔任了NCC主委6年委員8年"},{"start":11220.31,"end":11227.953,"text":"整個的NCC看起來在這方面是沒有作為的本席感到非常的遺憾了不要把這些事情不要把這些問題都丟到個資法你們是電信管理法的電信事業的主管機關電信管理法裡面就有要求而你們沒有根據個資法"},{"start":11240.857,"end":11245.904,"text":"去要求電信事業要善加做到要去識別化這去識別化不是由電信業者自己單方來認定什麼樣的這個資訊去識別化報告委員我們現在補充一下就是我們現在因為電信管理法實施以後我們都已經有督導電信業者來"},{"start":11260.161,"end":11278.368,"text":"修訂相關的消費者保護契約還有定型化契約的規範我們最新版本大概是在37條我們都有要求要請電信業課金而格遵各自保護法相關規定還有剛剛委員有提到所以他們認為他們有遵守了規定你們就認為他們做到了嗎沒有一個查核的機制電信業者就是球員兼裁判認為哪些資訊是軍事別話他們說了算嗎"},{"start":11289.733,"end":11296.801,"text":"沒有沒有,我們本來就每一年都有外部集合機制存在,對是,我有看到你們的集合機制的那個計畫之抽象之模糊根本沒有把我們剛剛講的那些現在電信業者所進行的人流分析的數據列為是查核的"},{"start":11306.271,"end":11307.072,"text":"下一位請何清淳委員發言"},{"start":11342.219,"end":11346.583,"text":"謝謝陳雪生召委我們是不是先請訴發部黃部長訴發部黃部長黃部長好我想我們今天都在談我們人民的個資的保護這是一定要的這是我們一定政府要去維護的人民的權益"},{"start":11366.397,"end":11374.87,"text":"今天談的不管是電信業者或者是我接下來要談的第三方支付我覺得保護人民的個資維護人民的權益"},{"start":11378.001,"end":11404.437,"text":"不僅僅是政府甚至所有的民間企業都必須要做到對不對好那我現在就來談問題出在哪裡我們到現在都在談打詐打詐我們還是發現即使到現在政府各單位動起來了要組一個打詐國家隊結果呢詐騙仍然橫行那橫行的最重要的一個金流的來源是在哪裡"},{"start":11405.658,"end":11430.979,"text":"其中一個環節在第三方支付我們到現在我這個是搜尋的最近的這些媒體有報出來的個案都看到這個詐騙集團的金流一樣是透過第三方支付變成是他的工具那我們現在雖然有說要強化監管那部長就你認為第三方支付現在是我們數位發展部"},{"start":11431.98,"end":11459.834,"text":"要管理的你自己認為來你督導現在你的認知態度那個跟委員報告我們當然第三置戶是一個的確啦是詐騙的一個管道那我們在做已經在做管理包括能量登錄啦從過去有一萬多家的所謂第三方置戶業者現在只有剩下五十幾家那五十幾家的好處就是說我們就可以對他比較強度監管那他們如果要生你的強度監管等一下我就問你來我跟你講"},{"start":11460.774,"end":11478.665,"text":"第三方支付我說淪為詐騙的溫床對不對你剛剛也講是可能是詐騙工具的一個項目而且幾乎是橫行喔那你們說呢對你們有源頭管理現在有需要他登錄但是我在提醒喔你們還是被動的接受登錄"},{"start":11480.126,"end":11503.183,"text":"這個服務量能的登錄制度雖然是因應洗錢防治法我們去年修法還有數位發展部有給予所謂的法尊指引但是你們的量能我覺得不夠為什麼不夠源頭管理阻斷詐騙你們還做不到你們的查核量能效率很慢"},{"start":11504.619,"end":11523.139,"text":"我舉一個例子這個是你們給我的資料我調出來的剛剛部長有講一萬多家可以做第三方支付服務業的有一萬多家那現在登錄的你們給我的資料原來是說54家54家裡面其中有一家"},{"start":11524.867,"end":11552.49,"text":"現在被廢止了那這個被廢止了我要跟你講這個時間差透露出我們數位發展部的這個效率慢量能不夠這個這一家叫做楊盛楊盛呢原來在112年呢8月左右你們就讓他通過登錄你們讓他通過登錄了之後你們到什麼時候才去實地查核你知道嗎隔一年的1月"},{"start":11554.539,"end":11576.534,"text":"從8月到隔一年的1月總共將近5個月你們實地查核才發現他有異樣他搬離了縣子也沒有辦法再來補件也沒有辦法再來說明你們一直到這是你們自己發的這個新聞稿一直到今年的3月才說廢止他的登錄"},{"start":11578.14,"end":11586.991,"text":"那部長從你們給他通過的112年8月到今年的3月才廢止這中間經過幾個月?8月到3月就已經有"},{"start":11594.752,"end":11611.257,"text":"對嘛你都答不出來了半年多啦這半年多七個月的空窗期那請問一下如果他繼續淪為詐騙集團所利用的第三方支付那發生了多少件了騙了多少錢了你知道嗎"},{"start":11613.142,"end":11638.858,"text":"你根本沒有辦法控管阿對,那個委員這個我們要改進阿但是那個細節我是不是請署長、副署長報告你們要改進問題是你們改進到現在是怎麼樣改進法你們的監管的量能到哪裡?監管的強度到哪裡?來是,跟委員報告就是陽勝這個案子是因為他有我們不是要針對個案我要講的是你們的效率對對對我們一年大概會查20幾家"},{"start":11640.461,"end":11640.481,"text":"議員報告"},{"start":11664.312,"end":11684.084,"text":"這個數字落差你自己講出來的現在實際上有在做大概100交120交那有來登錄的是80幾交已經通過申請的大概是50幾交那這三個數字之間你總是要給人民一個交代吧其他沒有來登錄的還可以再繼續進行第三方支付嗎?"},{"start":11686.037,"end":11712.748,"text":"不行啦 不行嘛對不對銀行他去申請銀行不會給來來我現在就跟你講銀行的事情了來部長我希望你身為數位發展部的部長在管理第三方支付你源頭管理是重點但是你的效率不彰你的量能不夠你現在看喔我幫你爬書出來數位發展部在管第三方支付管業者那消費者被詐騙的是"},{"start":11714.449,"end":11715.79,"text":"請問事務發布在什麼時候在哪一個環節可以馬上阻斷"},{"start":11742.062,"end":11746.224,"text":"現在平均可以在第三方支付業者這個虛擬帳號的一個阻斷的效率如何?你平均每通到一個案件你花多少時間去做阻斷的動作?"},{"start":11763.196,"end":11786.103,"text":"你現在這個聯防平台也沒有一下子喔都有時間上的落差喔從警政署、警政單位接收到報案報案再接收到去通報通報之後你們要求第三方支付斷"},{"start":11788.012,"end":11790.953,"text":"你告訴我時間差多少啊?你現在講出來錄影錄影喔!"},{"start":11811.841,"end":11818.631,"text":"欸因為這個都是檢警調查了之後去通知銀行這我們可能要跟他們 你看你現在講的又跟剛剛回答我的不一樣了啊沒有不一樣"},{"start":11822.315,"end":11823.636,"text":"但是我跟你講﹖"},{"start":11845.735,"end":11871.347,"text":"第三方支付轉出去之後到銀行端警政署數萬件的通報案件到銀行端的時候銀行端凍結帳號這中間就有時間差很多都是透過第三方支付給銀行銀行就馬上轉匯出去了這中間就是我們認為說人民要求我們的數位聯防平台是不是能夠更強化能夠更及時"},{"start":11873.666,"end":11901.675,"text":"你數位發展部有沒有權利要求第三方支付一收到這個消費者一次被詐騙的金額的時候他就可以系統阻斷可不可以不可以啦我現在都跟你講啦所以你應該跟金管會跟銀行端我覺得這是要跨部會合作因為你們現在這個聯防平台就是漏了你們這一關啦"},{"start":11902.816,"end":11932.32,"text":"就是少了你們這個把關啊你不能整個都推給銀行啊推給金管會啊因為第三方支付業者現在是數位發展部在管的啊是不是所以我拜託你去好好的去研擬出一套你可以回答我問題真正可以運行的我的要求人民的要求就是第三方支付監管還必須強化你的聯防也必須要強化你的"},{"start":11932.78,"end":11933.721,"text":"下一位請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":11963.263,"end":11983.624,"text":"主席有請速發部、NCC、法務部還有中華電信施施有兩種王逸川有兩個"},{"start":11985.014,"end":12007.864,"text":"一個是天眼局的王逸川非常厲害可以透過手機比對太陽花、小草、民進黨選前之夜跟青鳥活動裡面的年齡跟重複度跟他的移動非常厲害天眼局一流的第二個是膝蓋局局長就是王逸川他說這些所有的東西都是要膝蓋響的"},{"start":12010.999,"end":12037.168,"text":"這兩個天眼局跟膝蓋局的王逸川其中一個在說謊我想請教一下法務部次長我想請教您今天如果說天眼局我們王逸川假設沒有正當法律授權取得未識別化的群眾資料用於政治偵訪跟群眾運動的數據分析請問這樣是不是構成所謂通訊監察保障法以及個人資料保護法的法規的違反"},{"start":12038.925,"end":12057.567,"text":"我們這個疑慮我不要講個案上通案上從法律上來講他如果違反我們這個通保法相關的規定或者各自法規定的話當然會構成相關的刑責所以現在已經在計案辦查偵查了嗎對不對這個案已經在偵查什麼時候開始辦的各位報告他529才分案529分案嗎今天第幾天了"},{"start":12058.496,"end":12076.6,"text":"第5天好如果說今天真的涉及這些所謂的未識別化資訊就違法的疑慮你不講個案講通案那我想問你如果王一川是用膝蓋響的有沒有違法我膝蓋響的啊我膝蓋很厲害啊我膝蓋響的有沒有違法"},{"start":12077.725,"end":12087.515,"text":"各位報告這個其實就個案了你已經講到個人那就是個案那稀罕我想不出為什麼法啦可是你知道我要問的問題是什麼嗎第5天我想請問我們現在檢查機關證據保全的行動在哪裡"},{"start":12091.361,"end":12115.018,"text":"官員報告剛剛有委員提到類似的問題其實個案上講要偵辦他證據的保全我在這邊我也不便問我直接告訴你啦你不便問我曾經也被檢方約談過啦所以約談本身就是一個新聞啦請問有沒有王一川約談了沒官員報告我目前沒有這方面的訊息沒有這方面的訊息我也沒看到啦"},{"start":12116.038,"end":12135.746,"text":"那更不要講說今天王逸川身上是不是有相關的資料進行資料保全必要的一些法律行動有沒有做你也不知道我告訴你啊根本沒做啦至少到目前為止沒看到啦王逸川活蹦亂跳啦我要問一下市長啊我想請教你啊"},{"start":12136.738,"end":12154.873,"text":"王玉川現在從所謂的天眼局改口變成膝蓋局這不是空中串供嗎他現在開始串說法啦改說法後面膝蓋局又膝蓋想的他又迴避他法律責任可是今天我沒有看到檢察機關有任何積極行動"},{"start":12156.974,"end":12177.86,"text":"各位報告檢察官在收證公訴證據當然是重要證據但非公訴證據的收集也是公訴證據跟非公訴證據如果遇到羅志強都辦啦遇到王毅川就會有分別啦我懂啦為什麼因為他今天是民進黨中央政策會執行長他今天是民進黨不分區立委的候補人選"},{"start":12179.963,"end":12181.084,"text":"我現在請教我們中華電信的董事長"},{"start":12193.763,"end":12220.384,"text":"我想請教您喔委員好請問齁我們王毅川他到底要如何用手機去辨別太陽花還有所謂的小草還有民進黨選前之夜跟青鳥活動裡面的人的重疊度跟年齡跟性別如何比對報告委員我們不清楚他怎麼做的欸不清楚欸我們主委你們在報告裡面已經寫了啊是"},{"start":12221.414,"end":12249.785,"text":"一定要取得電信業者基地台服務的用戶號碼以及帳戶客戶的資料庫的資料進行交叉比對嘛 對不對如果要確認一個人的話一定要這樣去處理答對了所以呢是有方法可以做 對不對但是你們不肯做而已嘛 對不對你的說法是這樣嘛 對不對技術上可以法規上可不可以的問題好那我就要問董事長我告訴你啊你可能中華電信要慚愧了啦"},{"start":12251.001,"end":12275.479,"text":"因為我們現在有新科技工具不用這些方法你知道用什麼方法就可以做到嗎不用什麼賬戶客戶資料庫不用基地台服務的用戶號不需要你知道用什麼超級無敵的AI武器就可以做到你知道什麼東西嗎你知道嗎你當然不知道啦我告訴你好不好趕快去找王逸川他的膝蓋做得到啦他的膝蓋做得到啦"},{"start":12277.506,"end":12302.557,"text":"今天我要特別講我還是肯定我們我今天是難得肯定我們陳耀祥主委到目前為止沒有護航王逸川但是你也不願意好好地把資料交出來現在民進黨政府包括國安局、調查局、NCC你們全部都不肯做這種事情嘛你們會做嗎?會不會做主委?你會去政治偵訪、群眾資料、交叉比對今天"},{"start":12303.427,"end":12316.454,"text":"我們依法不可以做我們就不會做阿對了嘛我就是要你這句話嘛顯然就是違法依法就是不能做我也問過法務部阿也是依法不能做阿不是嗎沒錯阿有沒有要改口法務部當然要依法處理阿對啊國安局也切割啦可到現在為止我要跟民進黨喊話全部都切割了啦"},{"start":12330.509,"end":12348.929,"text":"今天王逸川到底是膝蓋局局長還是天眼局局長你明明這樣耐心的出來給個交代吧不管哪一個都是說謊我今天問我們的主委你在這個地方會說謊嗎當然要據實陳述啊對啊 據實陳述啊所以為什麼今天我們的聽證調查今天規範官員要有誠實"},{"start":12353.591,"end":12355.212,"text":"我希望請問民進黨你的執政怎麼說服公眾啊以上"},{"start":12379.195,"end":12384.4,"text":"好,羅志強,謝謝羅志強委員執行。現在請王紅薇委員執行。好,謝謝主席。我請數發部的黃部長,還有我們NCC的陳耀祥主委。"},{"start":12405.002,"end":12425.631,"text":"市長好 各位好 今天王逸川說他在媒體所講的話是他用膝蓋想出來的 然後也有媒體問你 你說你尊重名嘴他們講話的權利 是不是是 那個人都有他的言論自由"},{"start":12426.391,"end":12453.337,"text":"但是這是我們NCC應該主管的範圍啊因為在 沒有錯我在這邊就要用句名檢舉這是王一川自己說的他說了這麼一堆的數據他說他是用膝蓋自己想出來的所以他當然違反我們相關的規定所以我在這邊我已經做好檢舉函了"},{"start":12455.177,"end":12471.896,"text":"直接我檢舉在5月27號三立新聞政論節目新台灣加油裡面王一參當任這個他的評論員然後講了一堆話他說他全部都是用膝蓋想出來的"},{"start":12472.777,"end":12492.559,"text":"所以這個當然會違反相關的規定既然政論節目新聞台可以用膝蓋來想出來講一大堆數據嗎所以我待會就會提供給你我具名檢舉所以我也要求我們NCC主委我們可以立刻去函給三立新聞的新台灣加油要求他說明嗎"},{"start":12493.34,"end":12508.101,"text":"我們現在目前已經依照程序在處理當中因為委員你在檢舉以前已經有6個案那今天林國成委員也有檢舉總共現在我們手上有8個案子沒有錯立刻檢舉什麼叫做他可以隨便講一講就如同之前民視也是民視的這個"},{"start":12511.505,"end":12529.043,"text":"臺灣第一勇全國第一勇的節目也是造謠說我在5月24號在那個臺大兒童醫院接受採訪這也是完全無中生有我們在這段時間我們看到太多的政論節目裡面大家信口開河那我覺得我們NCC該怎麼辦就應該怎麼辦好不好好"},{"start":12534.348,"end":12558.028,"text":"我想請教一下我們那個部長黃部長在你們的這個報告裡面特別提到就是說可以同時拿到基地台的這個用戶號碼以及又同時可以拿到電信事業的客戶資料庫同時取得可能性極低這是你們的報告可能性極低那我想請問部長"},{"start":12559.269,"end":12581.292,"text":"如果同時取得的可能性有多少呢?雖然極低還是代表完全不能排除啊,是不是?技術上可行,但是行政流程,第一個它是被保護的,那你需要有法規我請問你,那麼王逸川或者是民進黨的政策會拿到這個資料的可能性你認為有多少?"},{"start":12581.732,"end":12587.714,"text":"主委您也講說現在這些相關的資訊包含這個電信信令的大數據提供對象主要為政府機關所以主要為政府機關代表還有其他的私人企業或者團體機關"},{"start":12611.344,"end":12615.13,"text":"電信業者在這大數據分析包括人流的部分包括不包括政黨政黨目前來講的話你不是都找他們來問過了嗎對對對他們沒有提供給政黨"},{"start":12626.266,"end":12650.215,"text":"5月30日他們的回答是說他們沒有提供給政府機關、政黨或是特定個人那我想請問一下現在的王逸川因為被各單位都切割那他現在的問題是他現在看起來也要切割自己王逸川自己也要切割自己把自己的頭腦切割掉然後就說是他的膝蓋所以主委我請問一下"},{"start":12651.135,"end":12677.246,"text":"王毅川到底是監控王還是唬爛王?你認為兩者哪一個是?這可能要具體跟調查完以後才有辦法判斷因為按照你們的調查你已經做行政調查看起來你都說沒有啊三大電信公司都沒有提供給他啊那他總不會是怎麼樣是空中把他直接把他抓下來吧 對不對所以他到底是監控王還是唬爛王?"},{"start":12678.703,"end":12688.223,"text":"基本上來講我們從三大電信業所調查的資料來講目前並沒有資料比如說給這個王一川先生所以你看起來覺得他比較像後者是胡亂王嗎?"},{"start":12689.727,"end":12711.138,"text":"是不是這種情況來講我們後面查因為我們還要進行一個調查跟電信業者一起查那你待多久可以告訴我們大家他到底是監控王還是火爛王我們會請那個業者還有請當事人來講就這個兩個禮拜內可不可以我們已經我們一直流程上來講不好意思我請我們的內務處處長跟委員報告一下可以趕快告訴我們一下時間齁因為我不要耽誤"},{"start":12712.458,"end":12712.618,"text":"幾個月嗎?幾個月?"},{"start":12729.917,"end":12730.258,"text":"謝謝王洪"},{"start":12753.834,"end":12770.128,"text":"好,謝謝王煌威委員。現在我們請陳雪生委員召委發言好,謝謝主席。是不是請NCC陳主委、法務部黃次長、中華電信郭董"},{"start":12781.138,"end":12802.158,"text":"各位早本期今天這個會議把它定為國家機器有它的道理副院長說這個定中了一點因為這個王毅川執行長是民進黨很重要的一個幹部那麼跟整個選舉的國家機器扯在一起所以我定為國家機器"},{"start":12803.908,"end":12821.196,"text":"其實這一個我想請問一下我們法務部黃市長檢察官已經主動分案辦調查嘛那他這個社會那麼重視的一個案子一個大張旗鼓啊是不是一個兵分三路兵分四路嘛"},{"start":12822.571,"end":12845.225,"text":"請問三大業者有沒有做這樣的一個行為?各位報告,那這涉及到我們偵查不公開做最重要的原則了我知道啊,你們常常都在公開講的是偵查不公開,電視裡面你看看哪一樣不公開是不是?每一樣都公開啊偵查不公開是檢察官最基本的要求啦最基本的,最不基本的要求,哪一件不公開你講"},{"start":12846.345,"end":12863.385,"text":"每一件媒體有不公開的案子嗎?你舉例說明每一件都公開,公開的乾乾淨淨那我是覺得他應該兵分三路、兵分八路應該去包抄嘛那王玉川執行長你們傳訊過他嗎?我看電視報導也沒有"},{"start":12866.378,"end":12894.077,"text":"這麼重要一個人傳訊的話電視一定很大的字幕啊是不是各新聞媒體都頭板頭都出來了沒有啊沒看到啊各位報告他目前進行的什麼樣的偵查作為老實講我不清楚那除非該地檢署他主動發布新聞稿要不然外界那當然以你執掌的範圍你可以這麼講我想我對地檢署啊查到現在沒有任何的訊息很像真的是偵查不公開我看也不了了之啦這一件事情啊"},{"start":12895.902,"end":12899.524,"text":"目前國際分公司的副總陳建志是從哪裡調來的?副總欸,國際分公司副總"},{"start":12924.804,"end":12950.366,"text":"他是從我們立法院過去的助理政治任命的企通處擔任協理到現在是國際分公司的副總經理也是廣域的公務員你知道我們立法院柯總召的助理還有很多的助理跑到你們中華電信去都是高官任用你們知道嗎?董事長你知道嗎?甚至包含你本人都有可能是這樣"},{"start":12952.475,"end":12960.209,"text":"我是覺得這非常可怕因為政黨屬性不同就會做其他各種的服務那大數據有買賣嗎?"},{"start":12965.22,"end":12987.094,"text":"報告委員那個大數據人潮分析的部分在去識別化之後依照個人資料保護法、電信管理法等相關法令在這個遵循之下那這個合法的去進行這個數據的分析他分公司的副總退休了嗎?"},{"start":12988.325,"end":12994.344,"text":"在職你認了沒有在職因為我在4年以前不只4年以前總統選舉齁"},{"start":12996.175,"end":13017.372,"text":"我看過這樣的一個大數據的東西,也是從電信業者,也是找我們立委說你要不要分析你的票有多少?上布在台灣整個島,點點點,綠的點藍的點,分布的很密我看過這個東西,有人來跟我推銷,因為我的選區不需要這個東西"},{"start":13018.493,"end":13043.474,"text":"我的選區的選票都在我的腦袋裡面藍的在哪裡綠的在哪裡不是我的票在哪裡我通通都知道我自己知道我不是你們的大數據我的腦袋是我的大數據所以我是說你大數據這個東西可以買賣是不是可以買賣在我們法規的這個允許下所進行的商業的服務最可怕的是什麼呢"},{"start":13048.632,"end":13074.241,"text":"我是執政長的某一個人,我要個資料,你能夠不給嗎?一定給嘛,是不是?郭董我跟你熟的話,你什麼資料偷偷給我一下,我怎麼講是國家機器,今天講到王一川執行長,柯建民總召我也相信也是國家機器,是不是?他向你們要東西有什麼困難嗎?沒有困難的勒,既然都可以買賣了,我們也可以不買賣嘛,是不是這樣?"},{"start":13075.994,"end":13096.44,"text":"委員不會跟我索取這些不合法的我們不能依法不能提供的錢我向你索取都是合法的你能夠給我的東西也是合法的啊你會講不合法嗎那不可能嘛所以我剛才才在講啊打死你也不會招供啦是不是那還有就是這個事情發生以後你有去向你的下屬單位"},{"start":13097.967,"end":13124.509,"text":"去調查到底有沒有發生這個事嗎?有沒有?報告委員我有調查調查的資料在哪裡?我們這個請同仁調查結果調查結果怎麼樣?這個大數據的人潮分析的平台在5月17日到24日之間沒有任何的異常的使用跟存取他一定講報告董事長我們底下都是依法行政絕對不會有這種狗屁倒倒的事情是不是這樣報告?"},{"start":13126.272,"end":13147,"text":"報告委員我是請我們個人資料保護的這個單位去調查大數據單位陳主委底下一定跟你一樣嘛我們都依法行政當然本來就要落實依法行政是不是這樣報告所以我講雲淡風輕嘛沒事啊委員我們真的還是要經過調查才有辦法去下決論嘛"},{"start":13148.973,"end":13177.522,"text":"我是覺得齁你把這個大數據這樣子你可以講買賣有買賣也可以不買賣啊是不是買賣有公開的有私底下的有公的有私的什麼方式都有啊我確認王玉川執行長他不是詐騙集團喔我確認他不是詐騙集團他是真的我告訴你他的數據是有本的他的數據一定有來源的這個來源我高度的懷疑"},{"start":13178.191,"end":13204.671,"text":"就是由你們中華電信的大數據出去的我懷疑是這樣我懷疑啦,我不敢肯定啦因為我今天懷疑,我如果有資料的話我早就拿出來了但查到現在很像根本都沒有查出什麼東西黃一川執行長也老陳在在你問我,我是用膝蓋想的就跟我剛才講很像我用大腦想的這個道理是一樣的所以這怎麼查?"},{"start":13207.014,"end":13221.586,"text":"報告委員再次強調我們5月17日到24日之間我們大數據的人潮分析的平台資料庫裡面沒有任何異常的一個存取跟使用所以剛才我們這個蔡經營副院長講說我們執政黨講的是人權"},{"start":13226.107,"end":13255.073,"text":"嘴巴是講人權肚子裡面是講人權嗎不是這麼回事啊你們現在去打開NCC你把那個電視打開藍的電視台就是藍的電視台藍的電視台不會去講綠的一句好話綠的所有電視台絕對不會去讚美藍的政治人物一句好話一句都沒有不要講半句啦一句都沒有就是壞這個台灣的人民那麼的善良"},{"start":13256.48,"end":13277.822,"text":"這個台灣你們要,我最近想移民,我從來沒有這個想法在這裡晚上可以吃米粉湯,找瓜井,多愉快啊,穿個拖鞋出去,治安也很好為什麼想移民?不怕死的年輕人一堆啊,跟老公要打仗,是不是?那個電視每天報導的,你們沒有責任嗎?211沒有責任嗎?"},{"start":13281.299,"end":13305.931,"text":"這電視台叫關門嘛關這幾家嘛不准再講什麼藍的壞話也不准講綠的壞話電視節目水準稍微高一點好不好好我們盡力來提升啦不是盡力啊你去那邊就要走人啊怎麼盡力這個本來NCC就是一個制度嘛鐵塔的衙門流水的關嘛關上後要去但是我們還是會去處理NCC的官員這邊也很多在這邊齁我拜託大家我們共同努力啊真的"},{"start":13306.591,"end":13327.56,"text":"台灣不是這個樣子啊台灣沒有那麼善良的啊台灣真的已經很邪惡很罪惡感了立法院在開會讓立法院出去害怕能不能走出這個立法院這什麼話嘛你說說看這是個民主國家嗎你到大陸去看看你到大陸去看看有這樣的事嗎"},{"start":13328.527,"end":13328.827,"text":"現在請習曉清委員發言"},{"start":13367.176,"end":13368.156,"text":"陳主委,請問一下您的膝蓋還好嗎?"},{"start":13389.128,"end":13413.315,"text":"那你可以透過你的膝蓋算得出大數據、人流比例以及賴清德總統的造勢晚會跟519跟527三場活動的小草跟青鳥的分析嗎?這應該是要用客觀的數據去處理膝蓋算得出來嗎?膝蓋應該是算不出來那等於說王逸川最近在唬爛嘛在電視台上面唬爛NCC有沒有相關的一些罰則?"},{"start":13414.495,"end":13439.142,"text":"我們如果說有違反事實查證那當然會有罰則好,所以我們看一下PowerPoint好不好這個呢他當時一開始說他從分析的資料來看而且他講到幾個關鍵字他有講到呢基地台、訊號、資料、分析、比對而且他是比對三場不同的活動就如同我剛剛所說的那樣子我想請問陳主委他這樣的說法有可能性存在對吧"},{"start":13439.642,"end":13454.341,"text":"因為包含是我問過國安局長包含是這個當時疫情期間的建制系統還有包含是幾位書發部都說這樣子是有可行性只是很難取得請問主委是這樣嗎"},{"start":13455.302,"end":13459.244,"text":"2020年的時候因為疫情NCC跟電信三雄一起建立了一個系統那那個系統照來說只能保存資料28天而且我問過你們現在也已經沒有再使用了"},{"start":13474.833,"end":13496.51,"text":"那我要怎麼樣排除說已經建制的系統他沒有被拿去其他的地方重新的去做濫用我們當時在疫情時有三個第一個就是疫調輔助系統第二個是電子維理第三個是簡訊系統這我都知道我想要問的是濫用的部分要怎麼樣去這個資料我們全部刪除所以未來如果需要整個重建才行是嗎"},{"start":13497.33,"end":13526,"text":"還是系統仍然存在只是我們現在停止傳輸如果未來來講的話如果有大型的那個可能要重建可能要重建你要跟我講確定的不是可能就是這個系統是否還在因為舉例來說像當時數位身分證已經取消這個政策的時候它的整個系統是保留之外它還持續必須運作但是計劃已經停止了我想要詢問這個系統是已經完全銷毀還是我們現在已經不再使用這是兩件事資料銷毀了"},{"start":13528.561,"end":13532.223,"text":"系統停止還是銷毀?系統怎麼樣?系統我們已經下架下架是指說銷毀還是暫時就是下架?"},{"start":13548.331,"end":13576.269,"text":"下架是什麼意思?可以給我們一個清楚的定義什麼叫下架?就我們已經沒有在我們的公司沒有在傳輸還什麼是下架啦你講清楚一點下架定義是什麼?你這麼說法就跟那個王一川那個膝蓋沒什麼兩樣下架是什麼意思?我們系統已經下線公司已經沒有這個系統公司沒有這個系統所以如果今天又有疫情來的話要全數重建重建好那我再問一下我們看下一張投影片"},{"start":13577.56,"end":13605.511,"text":"我想要請問一下NCC主委還有貓眼中華電信請問在521當天你們有沒有協助在這個公民運動裡面幫忙他們去吊雞地台報告委員那天因為陳情的民眾比較多我們有接到包括這個委員還有這個什麼委員立法委員立法委員對民進黨的立法委員"},{"start":13607.023,"end":13627.931,"text":"是的是的然後要求你們協助增加基地台還有包括一些我們得到的一些外部單位外部單位是誰我是說我們在現得到一些希望說我們能夠加強訊號誰希望剛剛有講民進黨的立委嗎還有誰希望你們加強訊號"},{"start":13632.042,"end":13658.928,"text":"這個主辦單位那邊主辦單位可以要求中華電信加強訊號我們就要去配合加強訊號那個所有大型活動包括燈會或是像這種集會因為他的人多所以他的電話訊號都會比較用塞所以電信業者也不是只有中華電信不是只有中華電信我知道啊上面有寫嘛那所以說誰可以去要求誰可以去提出要求用戶都可以去提出要求需不需要申請"},{"start":13661.95,"end":13688.007,"text":"有沒有申請單沒有那我今天如果辦一個集會遊行那我需不需要向你填申請單我作為一個普通民眾不是立法委員的話不需要我們通常對於人潮聚集自己自發性的會去人潮聚集比較多的地方我們會為了服務民眾方便的話服務民眾方便所以不需要所以你只要就是隨機看電視看到說那裡在辦集會遊行人很多你們就會自己跑過去幫他增加訊號"},{"start":13689.208,"end":13718.037,"text":"如果因為這個是客戶用戶的問題我們會要求他的提比如說他提供這個所謂行動通訊要有一定的品質什麼一定的品質我的問題不是這個嘛我問題是你是否看電視只要看到有一個地方集會遊行人很多你們自己就會跑過去開基地台幫他增加訊號嗎其實不需要申請嗎剛委員報告像這個媽祖遶境白沙屯媽祖遶境還有燈會的活動他們有沒有申請他們有沒有提前跟你們溝通"},{"start":13718.917,"end":13720.699,"text":"我們確實有這個增加這個基地台的部件讓整個這個好我們再看上一張"},{"start":13745.177,"end":13774.073,"text":"所以大家才會懷疑嘛所以大家才會懷疑說這跟基地台有沒有關係嘛前面那個是5月2...我知道這是兩件事前面那是5月24號就有人講的現在他講這個在電視上講不是膝蓋喔是5月27號講的所以大家才會懷疑說是不是有被濫用是不是有國家監控的問題嘛最後我只問一下這個法務部好我...等一下等一下不好意思主席再給我30秒好不好我問一下那個NCC齁"},{"start":13774.873,"end":13791.672,"text":"就是說你們剛剛講說業者跟網紅會委員在問答的時候說業者沒有電信業者沒有販售資料給這個所謂的政治人物或政黨是不是就是說這個事情裡面不是這個事情我是說電信業者有沒有販售資料給政治人物"},{"start":13792.293,"end":13804.163,"text":"一般來講的話你剛剛說沒有沒有沒有我說我們5月30號那時候查他們說沒有放給發賣給政黨或特定個人不是是說所有的喔就是不是針對這個21號的行動來中華電信講因為不一定是中華電信嘛所以我不想請中華電信回來因為說不定他沒有啊來我直接唸給你聽好不好"},{"start":13813.51,"end":13834.042,"text":"我在選舉的時候就有收到某一家的資料庫他可以篩選選區戶集地發簡訊價錢多少我就不說了而且我跟國安局質詢的時候他們有回復我說電信業者確實有做package去賣給包含是政黨或個人但這樣子的情況請問主委是可以的嗎"},{"start":13835.123,"end":13835.403,"text":"好,以上謝謝"},{"start":13864.704,"end":13881.966,"text":"好謝謝齊小新委員接下來我們邱若驊委員執行謝謝主席主席請中華電信郭董事長好中華電信郭董事長"},{"start":13889.42,"end":13889.74,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13908.9,"end":13923.533,"text":"中華電信是關股背景那近年也投入大數據的分析過去有協助建制防疫監控平台請說明清楚當面對中央政府或是政黨有需求的時候能不能抗拒拒絕提供資料作為政治目的使用"},{"start":13925.459,"end":13945.481,"text":"報告委員,我們有關防疫的平台是在疾管局以及NCC依照相關法令規範的遵守下委託中華電信來建置跟維護的防疫平台那基本上這些都是合乎法令相關規定來辦理"},{"start":13947.023,"end":13960.002,"text":"至於您剛才所提的人潮分析這個部分我們是我們沒有提到人潮分析那直接回答能不能抗拒提供資料作為政治目的使用我們不會提供政治目的使用的這個相關的服務"},{"start":13960.902,"end":13982.211,"text":"那王一川先生在節目上面提到手機定位還有分析那這資料從何而來有沒有涉及不法我毫無所惜這資料不是我們提供的不是提供那董事長也一直說到絕對不會外流不是外流外流是被動式的還是這是主動式的提供我們沒有主動提供也沒有被動的提供"},{"start":13982.85,"end":14008.736,"text":"也沒有被動的提供那據了解手機IP來判定足跡重複就代表未去識別化那NCC是在講外行話因為國人的質疑是王逸川先生用這個資料我們都在想這資料到底是從何而來那依照電信業者的看法只有可能是急於國安危安用途還有陳抗情資收集那可見這份資料遭到不法使用那也可能會引發國安問題董事長您怎麼看"},{"start":14010.918,"end":14035.814,"text":"我中華電信所提供的人潮分析都是依照個人資料保護法電信管理法相關規定來在合法前提下所提供的商業性的分析應用目的是促進地方經濟還有觀光需求還有交通疏解等等這些有利於地方政府"},{"start":14036.394,"end":14039.476,"text":"我們完全遵照法定規定來辦理個人資料保護還有這個相關的措施"},{"start":14057.096,"end":14077.984,"text":"那可不可以解釋為什麼對應到的手機號碼號碼有沒有重疊這些都可以?剛委員報告中華電信的人潮分析相關的應用平台沒有違反任何相關法令我們沒有在這上面設定任何功能我們沒有設定這樣的一個交叉比對的功能"},{"start":14082.198,"end":14105.334,"text":"主委好那這邊5月30有請到三大的行動業者到進行了解嘛那行動業者都表示不曾參與輕量行動的群眾進行相關的資訊了解那請問NCC判定業者有沒有提供資料的依據為何那當然是要第一個要他們我們這個是做成正式的行政調查第二個我們請他有相關的資料來事後補充啊這個才是做判斷"},{"start":14106.65,"end":14133.548,"text":"因為三大通訊業者都說沒有提供那對於王一船先生在節目上的透露主意您怎麼看這個坦白說我很好奇他的資料是怎麼來的這個時候我也是看電視才知道說怎麼會有出現這種狀況所以我們當時一發生的時候馬上要求業者到會去接受調查去處理因為王一船先生現在是說用膝蓋想的也太也未免太太汙辱國人的智慧了"},{"start":14134.229,"end":14155.918,"text":"那這樣子的話那個資保護是否不足發生爭議那這一次因為自爆監控群眾事件才公開那NCC處理個資保護的問題能不能公開透明我們個資保護本來就有公開透明而且我們是依照法定程序去處理就剛剛跟委員報告講包括我們電信管理法第17條還有我們個資法的相關規定我們要求業者來講的話必須訂定這個個資保護"},{"start":14158.399,"end":14180.674,"text":"的那個維護計畫而且這個有經過國際那個認證並且我們是定期去稽查而且他們也必須落實內控機制比如說萬一他的個資如果外洩的話我們就依予裁罰所以我們的電信業者的確也曾經出現過有個資外洩這個議題後來被我們裁罰的情況是出現的那我這邊先這邊請那個我們的事務發布黃部長"},{"start":14188.439,"end":14212.612,"text":"蘇發部成立後行政院資通安全處有將他的業務移撥至蘇發部部長您上任之後有沒有確認接手的電子圍籬作業系統有銷毀我們目前沒有看到這個系統完全沒有完全沒有看到這個系統應該已經銷毀你們完全沒有看到應該已經銷毀就是說我上任以後沒有人跟我做這個報告那可以再提供相關的書面報告嗎可以我們再提供那個再確認一下可以沒問題"},{"start":14213.012,"end":14213.332,"text":"現在請吳宗憲委員執行"},{"start":14250.949,"end":14274.79,"text":"我們現在想麻煩陳耀祥主委還有鄭齊君副主任以及郭董事長郭董事長、鄭副處長三位午安我現在先請教一下"},{"start":14277.754,"end":14293.481,"text":"陳主委就有關NCC的主秘黃文哲他之前有說他說所定到他的基地台使用的人他究竟是男是女假設只是這樣的話那這樣沒辦法辨識個人那就不在各自法的範圍內你這句話你認同嗎?"},{"start":14294.912,"end":14295.953,"text":"你的前提就是去識別化之後嗎?"},{"start":14314.087,"end":14315.248,"text":"請問你手機定位他到底是不是個資法保護範圍內?"},{"start":14343.806,"end":14371.552,"text":"如果是手機的號碼來講當然是如果是信令來講相關訊息來講的話應該也是如果可以直接或間接認定到識別到個人身份的話他就會變成個資了好那我現在跟你講一下就是我上次在執行法務部長的時候我有提到其實國發會的函式包括那個行政院資通安全處處長他曾經寫過的報告以及當天法務部長、政部長他所說的其實他們都認為手機定位他應該是屬於個資法保護的範圍內"},{"start":14373.592,"end":14393.932,"text":"因為我再提一個在103年的時候曾經有海巡署的官員他去裝GPS後來在卡車上面裝GPS結果後來被法院判決拘獄59天我想主委一定知道這個案子所以即便裝GPS知道你這個車子到哪裡都被認定是有妨害秘密了"},{"start":14394.292,"end":14416.861,"text":"更何況今天我們涉及手機的定位因為手機的定位他甚至綁的是個人那像車子的話可能是誰開的我們也不知道那另外我要再提一個點在司法上面的調查的合法的監控不會對人群只會對個人或特定的某些犯罪的人那在國安局他這次也說了他並沒有把一些資料流出來"},{"start":14417.461,"end":14430.16,"text":"那剛剛主委你也有說過啦你說你不知道王逸川的這個這個資料到底是哪裡來你剛跟那個邱委員有這樣講嘛對不對那所以如果這樣子推論下來的話那我想請教一下"},{"start":14431.318,"end":14460.217,"text":"國董事長那這樣子是不是中華電信應該要大義滅親去對王一川提告啊因為你看喔沒有任何人可以拿到這些資料從司法體系來說司法體系不會拿到人群的資料他只會拿到個案的資料雖然非常的詳細這我很清楚第二個國安局也說他不會把資料給給這個特定人或特定政黨使用所以今天他莫名其妙的拿到這些資料的話是不是應該"},{"start":14461.919,"end":14463,"text":"我們不清楚王先生的資料來源是如何"},{"start":14483.897,"end":14511.567,"text":"中華電信已經在上禮拜有發出新聞稿也在這邊鄭重跟委員報告中華電信跟王先生沒有任何接觸也沒有任何業務洽談那我們也沒有提供任何資料給他我知道我知道我相信你說的我姑且相信你說的但是是不是說如果他今天有用不祥的方式去取得貴公司的資料那貴公司其實該提告就要提告我想這個應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":14514.366,"end":14538.836,"text":"我們沒有任何相關的事證說他是使用中華電信的資料我是說如果之後經過檢察官因為檢察官現在已經分他資料在調查如果今天檢察官查出來這確實跟貴公司資料有關的話我想貴公司會不會提出告提到中華電信嚴守個人資料保護法跟電信管理法我們沒有提供任何資料給他"},{"start":14539.773,"end":14557.182,"text":"好不好 那有答跟沒有答一樣啦 不然我跟你講 你要是不懂得立法院怎麼運作 你去問一下你們那個法律事務處的副總經理啦 魏惠珍他以前是柯總召的助理嘛 他應該很了解立法院的運作啦 那我們希望你還是能夠表示啦 不然你不懂就去問他好了 好不好"},{"start":14560.759,"end":14583.352,"text":"那既然你這麼講的話那再來我請教我跟那個個資保護委員會的那個正副處長我將請問一下這些手機流量定位服務這些個資的再利用是用什麼合法的方式釋出你們有什麼合法的方式可以把這些資料給外面的人"},{"start":14584.048,"end":14585.269,"text":"電信管理法的法規是有多規範?"},{"start":14611.588,"end":14637.66,"text":"這個部分可能要麻煩你們要適宜或是還有補充一些資料給我們一下那我想請教你就是那你有沒有主動告訴這些民眾申請這些手機門號這些民眾你的資料可能會被這樣的運用拿去販賣我們不要說流出去啦你會不會拿去做正常的販賣商業的使用你有沒有在他們來申辦門號的時候有跟他們講這個風險"},{"start":14639.615,"end":14661.822,"text":"瓜哥委員這可能就要再問一下電信的主管機關各位委員報告我們這個行動寬頻服務企業裡面來講的話對於這個在跟當事人比如說他要申請使用這個電信服務的時候包括他的處理利用還有這些相關的條件在定型化企業裡面都會告知那你定型化企業有時候叫我們勾選一些東西嗎對不對通常我的我都是勾不要請那個"},{"start":14663.922,"end":14685.668,"text":"報告委員如果您勾選不要的話就不會納入剛才所講類似人草分析的這個條文這問題非常好但我跟各位報告一下今天我運氣好因為我念法律的我還有耐心去細看每個法律的條文契約的條文但是民眾呢你一個定義化契約丟在那邊厚厚一本你就叫他簽名"},{"start":14686.548,"end":14698.779,"text":"我個人認為這對民眾的保障其實是不足更何況你把他們的資料拿去販賣那這樣子他根本搞不清楚啊你的說明有沒有說明清楚"},{"start":14699.741,"end":14725.648,"text":"他到電信公司去或是那個通訊行去辦了一個門號就這個定型化企業一本丟給他請他簽名都拿幾個位置叫他簽名實務上都是這樣啦問題是你能期待他們能夠把定型化企業搞清楚嗎所以我不認為說我講一個這定型化企業我已經跟人民講過了那就算數就沒我的事我不認同這樣啦好那最後我跟各位講一個"},{"start":14726.946,"end":14754.24,"text":"如果你們真的對於個資這麼喜歡研究其實你們去看一下那個111年憲判制13號他在討論健保資料的時候他其實有討論到很多東西啦所以呢你們去先釐清一下那個法官他們對於健保資料他是怎麼認定的他是怎麼樣要求要去識別化要完全切斷資料內容跟特定主題之間的關聯線索這個這個"},{"start":14756.161,"end":14772.61,"text":"你就麻煩你們了解一下另外在憲判制13號他有提到如果這些資料被濫用比如說這王逸川的事件我想提到我的救濟管道在哪裡麻煩你們去研議一下參考一下健保資料被濫用的話"},{"start":14773.57,"end":14797.477,"text":"被侵害的人是怎麼救濟你們是不是應該要去思考一個救濟的管道來告訴人民尤其是這一次假設最後檢察官調查受害人是200萬民眾呢那我們是不是要來搞一個團體疏通來告中華電信告國家所以這部分麻煩你們釐清一下我們覺得事情發生就發生了但是我很需要的是一個救濟的方式你把救濟方式告訴我那我們來告訴"},{"start":14798.683,"end":14814.757,"text":"民眾你們都有這個權利如果你今天對於我的電信公司或者是對於國家的管理有意見的話我甚至有可能要求國賠好不好再麻煩你們能夠研議一下很快補充報告個人資料跟數據應用分析是兩件事"},{"start":14815.257,"end":14831.164,"text":"個人資料一定要根據國家的法令所以絕對不會外流數據應用分析是要去識別化之後而且是得到輪廓分析絕對沒有個人化資料但即使是這樣個人可以選擇不提供"},{"start":14832.284,"end":14851.537,"text":"加入人潮分析相關的一個數據應用我們請郭董事長會後再向我們吳宗憲委員你要照做啊你不能這樣子搞啦另外我補充一個這個世界沒有絕對你說絕對不會流出去我跟你講沒那種事情我辦過多少案子駭客進去就把東西偷出來"},{"start":14852.888,"end":14853.869,"text":"請陳耀祥主委、中華電信股董事長"},{"start":14890.53,"end":14917.592,"text":"主委、國董事長其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋最主要就是兩個部分第一這件事情透過一個民進黨的現在執政黨的政策會執行長在節目上講出來我覺得這是非常令人這個毛骨悚然我們來看一下他當時怎麼講他說資料分析有些人是小草有些是太陽花太陽花什麼時候"},{"start":14918.913,"end":14946.006,"text":"10年前換言之他掌握的資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比再來說用手機看他的年齡他有辦法用手機看到年齡還有這些人跟原來的小草比對過517民進黨樓下跟小草訊號比起來是不同人這一批人跟上一次選舉1月13號選前之夜對比也沒關係所以他掌握的是有"},{"start":14947.325,"end":14962.158,"text":"這個小草有517有1月13號的選前之夜的對比然後主持人問說你去對這個記憶體來訊號啊你就可以知道啊所以王逸川王先生講的是透過手機訊號能分析啊"},{"start":14963.1,"end":14985.425,"text":"好我知道到目前為止不管是主委也講說5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來講也都說沒有沒有外流中華電信國董事長更是從一開始到現在都講說個人資料都有保護嘛那我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料除了在中華電信手上以外除了在電信公司手上以外還有哪一些公司有可能取得"},{"start":14987.253,"end":15008.6,"text":"那個委員這可能第一個如果是個人資料來講的話就是電信公司就是三家三大電信業者嘛那如果是已經被去識別化以後的這個數據看起來他是沒有去識別化如果有去識別化數據的話說電信業者來講的話最大數據分析的公司包括所謂的資訊公司市場調查都有可能有這些數據但是目前看起來他一開始講的原文嘛對我們"},{"start":15009.58,"end":15033.794,"text":"手中都是他一開始最一開始所講的嘛他所講的是沒有去識別化我們也很好奇說他這個說法來講他資料到底是怎麼去取得好那到目前為止今天NCC的資料在第三頁的時候就講是說三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業政府機關特定黨政人士跟政府跟公司來洽購相關的資料公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊"},{"start":15035.447,"end":15051.845,"text":"所以公司沒有主動提供然後也沒有被動提供那到底他的資料從哪裡來?還有可能從哪裡來?這個可能要問王一川先生才了解所以說這個案子為什麼說那個檢調單位在調查就是這樣因為很多的資料你如果想去調查來講的話那可能要犯罪身上才有辦法去處理"},{"start":15052.626,"end":15079.973,"text":"是來郭董事長你們這樣子的一個沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎中華電信提供的人潮分析等這個數據應用分析的資料都是經過去識別化合乎法令規定來辦理的那你們現在跟如果說跟一般的這個民調公司現在有跟幾家民調公司合作是可以提供去識別化的資料外部的很多的公司的反而是我們的競爭業者"},{"start":15082.827,"end":15103.38,"text":"我們會針對這個個案然後針對例如剛才所講的商業的這個振興觀光或者是這個交通疏解等等這些目的然後協助有部分的縣市政府來提供這些相關的資料這個沒有問題你要聽懂本席的問題"},{"start":15104.801,"end":15129.239,"text":"我在NCC的第5月的報告裡面有看到嘛就是說這個也是一開始我們質疑這一個執政黨的政策會執政黨的時候執政黨的說法執政黨說沒有啊這個外面公司都有賣啊你看有什麼台中市政府辦的活動有新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料啊那本席現在想要問的是他各資料就是完全不同啊那還有"},{"start":15130.12,"end":15157.996,"text":"更重要的是你們現在信誓旦旦都講是說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天親鳥行動的資料嘛對我們確實沒有對確實沒有好本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止NCC的調查都沒有提供親鳥行動的資料主動或被動提供嘛對不對那他又怎麼能夠來跟這個其他的這個各縣市的這樣的資料來去做比對是相同"},{"start":15159.52,"end":15174.58,"text":"報告委員我們不清楚他的這個資料但我們剛才報告就是中華電信這個遵守個人資料保護法電信管理法的相關規範所以個人資料絕對沒有外流一定是留在公司是嗎?譬如說數據分析的輪廓分析"},{"start":15177.043,"end":15199.477,"text":"NCC主委你第5月的簡報是不是講是說三大電信業者有配合內政部有配合新北市政府觀光局有配合金門縣政府有辦相關活動那是數據是數據嘛對不對但到目前為止我剛剛請教的是說你三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動給任何人那這樣子他怎麼有辦法說在節目上27號講的這樣鉅細謎理"},{"start":15202.741,"end":15211.016,"text":"換言之到目前為止就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講的話是青鳥行動到底有沒有任何數據去給任何民間的公司去做分析"},{"start":15213.769,"end":15236.286,"text":"報告委員我們沒有提這個再次強調這個我們在我有下去請同仁查5月17號到24號之間我們的大數據的這個人潮分析平台沒有異常的存取跟這個使用本席的問題在哪裡你知道就是說是不是自始至終這個王先生他節目上就都是唬爛啊因為"},{"start":15239.591,"end":15266.586,"text":"你現在NCC給我們的數據第三頁的簡報是現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供輕鳥行動的資訊對不對那你又看到第五頁是說如果說真的有提供資訊要有這樣子的一個數據分析一定要有政府或是相關機關來去申請你才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析嗎他們有一些契約啦有一些上來使用也要有契約"},{"start":15267.887,"end":15284.556,"text":"那我現在講的是說如果說到目前為止三大電信業者講的是說在這次清了行動沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話那27號他有辦法在節目裡面講的那居信迷你他已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題了是不是自始至終他根本都是在唬爛"},{"start":15286.858,"end":15308.494,"text":"這恐怕你要請教王逸川先生這不是我請教王逸川先生的NCC是主管機關他是在節目裡面講的三立新聞台是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目委員已經有好幾個檢舉說我們現在是否有違反事實調查去處理是來主委你在咳嗽啊來主委我請教如果說真的自始至終在唬爛的話這個衛廣法可以開罰多少錢"},{"start":15312.757,"end":15329.223,"text":"那個是事實查證的問題是事實查證的問題因為到目前你講就是說他事實中可能都是在都是不實的嘛我不知道他怎麼天馬行空但他講的好像是煞有其事但實際上他是新聞台那事實查證如果說這個新聞台他播出這種完全沒有事實根據的"},{"start":15330.003,"end":15345.957,"text":"他還可以講的太陽花、小草、五一七、民進黨樓下、交叉分析、基地台分析難怪人家講說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮如果違反事實查證的話從20萬到200萬是可以查出的"},{"start":15348.9,"end":15376.94,"text":"最高可以從20萬罰到200萬最低20萬什麼時候可以調查出來因為我剛剛聽到委員有講好像是3個月到6個月會不會太久沒有 我們一般說案件程序都是這樣處理好 那什麼時候會請三立新聞台來說明我們這個禮拜會先請他們意見陳述這個禮拜會先請三立新聞台意見陳述什麼時候他們必須要回覆原則上因為他要提輪委會所以以我們的慣例就是14天內他要提輪委會"},{"start":15378.066,"end":15385.275,"text":"提什麼會 提他們的倫理委員會 倫委會所以14天內他們要提他們的倫委會所以現在看起來"},{"start":15387.125,"end":15412.808,"text":"我們之前是14到21啦那因為這個案子都很關切社會矚目盡量趕快提對其實本席對於任何人都沒有意見但本席對於如果說今天是執政黨的一個高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情當然大家會心裡會毛骨悚然啊這也是為什麼今天召委會排說國家機器來做相關的事情因為我們很怕說國家機器介入太深啊"},{"start":15414.073,"end":15432.563,"text":"我估計還是相信大家今天的講法但如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是說這中間一定有環節有差錯那到底是誰的問題我想NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚謝謝再請張報告NCC再請張報告提供給洪孟凱委員謝謝洪孟凱委員的發言下一位我們請張祺凱委員"},{"start":15458.475,"end":15465.082,"text":"請下黃部長還有陳主委黃部的黃次長跟中華電信的郭董事長"},{"start":15474.673,"end":15495.693,"text":"不好意思一次要四位重量級上來因為這個事情很嚴重這是老大哥正在看著你你跟我的這個足跡都被看光光了全民現在是很關注這個案子所以我請四位主管一定要非常注意這個事情這個事情有兩個面向第一個 凡走過必留下痕跡"},{"start":15497.677,"end":15521.11,"text":"現在是數位時代啊有的人說什麼王一川、魏豪倫還是說什麼他叫新明、富森現在說誰該想到的現在這個數位時代到底他的資料哪裡來山大電信公司有做這個事情嗎這個摩薩德調嗎只要有做這一定查得出來對不對"},{"start":15522.874,"end":15535.381,"text":"陳志偉這邊．法務部這邊一定查得出來這樣事情閃不出去這是第一個點第二個他是一個客觀的事實所以我從一早到現在我聽到的都是"},{"start":15536.622,"end":15560.213,"text":"欸 大家先幫三大電信公司先把背書 啊 主委你找他來 問一下 他說沒有 這樣就 這人民相信嗎 他是個客觀的事實啊 所以法務部跟NCC NCC是主管機關啊 法務部要捍衛人民的權益啊 人民在怕主機被看光光啊 你們有責任欸 是個客觀的事實 你們要去幫他查清楚 你們才對得起人民啊 是不是這樣"},{"start":15561.554,"end":15587.808,"text":"所以拜託四位喔包括保定好不好我們把這兩個前提先講了好那本席既然是客觀的事實我們就進去追進去追追追我給大家看一個我們辦公室啊在第一個時間點就擋了一種很重要的點位王一川不管你是維吾爾人還是他剛才講他在他的槌上面"},{"start":15589.377,"end":15600.221,"text":"他說他要介紹一種用了很久的手機信用資料分析方法右下角他說一間公司數據公司他說這間公司怎麼做?我說怎麼維護人?"},{"start":15605.779,"end":15633.556,"text":"好 那最真相啊 客觀的事實啊我們辦公室就打個電話給王逸川這個脆三面分享的數據公司跟數據公司通話 問一問答得到三個很重要的資訊來 那這位看一看他講啊 資訊公司會得到一組代表這個個人代號的cookie第二 可以透過這一組代碼去分析這個人在這段時間的足跡第三個同胸部"},{"start":15634.878,"end":15662.567,"text":"他說一百兩折啊,一個數據公司而已喔他說他在比對不同的時間活動的不寵物人士的比例這是不是跟王一川說的一樣主委、市長、部長王一川怎麼說他可以查得出來民進黨112選前之夜跟民眾黨519小草活動跟524的清涼活動人流組成不同他說的是不是跟這間數位公司說的是一樣"},{"start":15664.807,"end":15691.227,"text":"好 我再給大家看下一張我的辦公室對話是這樣因為王毅川公有這間公司會做得到嘛 對不對這個大家進他的槌 查這個公司還查得到我的辦公室助力卡了他說啦 我問他我要辦一個五月辦一檔多年如果五月要再辦一檔多年那我能不能知道五月的活動跟六月的活動裡面的人有沒有重複你看這間公司怎麼說他說可以啊"},{"start":15693.035,"end":15718.242,"text":"因為他那個會有一個詞 這個類似就是廣告ID那個詞 其實他說會cookie啦 他說你透過這樣去做比對 你就可以知道出席者到底有沒有重複這個事情 我的助理繼續跟他對 助理阿們 他說這樣 你這東西會不會有個資的問題啊 我沒辦法理解啊 你如果是用電信的數據的話 怎麼會有cookie這個東西"},{"start":15719.229,"end":15746.05,"text":"我們今天可以到現在嗎?從王玉川開始說這個事情到現在,通常一個觀念是什麼?你們提供的到底是數據還是個資?目前看起來,照這個公司說的,拿到是個資喔!是不是?這問題嚴重嗎?市長,一個數位公司拿得到這樣的資料嗎?這是王玉川說的公司啊!"},{"start":15747.554,"end":15775.943,"text":"要說的所有東西跟王先生一樣啊所以好啊查好不好部長跟諸位先回去先去查一下那提這個還有一個非常重要的重點就是在這三家數據公司不是口抽無憑啦不是說你說沒有提供就沒有啊我們請法務部跟NCC要去一邊查現在民眾都檢舉了嘛對不對要查嘛給人民一個安心的答案就是包括中華電信公司的當事人在這裡"},{"start":15778.503,"end":15797.259,"text":"現在會勝會贏啊 包括你進行什麼大數據的總監啊 這個人民到現在都沒有答案拜託一下 你如果讓人民真的要安心 你們一定要去把它查清楚好不好來 我們再看畫面的 現在我們來講到底違法違在哪裡 你從各支法的第二條去看"},{"start":15798.578,"end":15825.037,"text":"他個資法定義很清楚啊其他得以直接或間接方式識別該人的這個資料剛才那個公司說的王一山說的就是嘛我跟你講個資法第一條 對不對再來他違反了哪一個法我們看一下下一個上一張看一下上一張個資法違反了對不對來再下一張下來來再下來好所以我們現在要查的是什麼"},{"start":15826.588,"end":15848.739,"text":"數位保定交資料．他的資料到底是哪裡來的?大家知不知他的資料有沒有來?如果三家電信公司都沒有做到這個東西不可能嘛是不是?那現在更恐怖的我再給大家看連一個數據的公司民間的他都說他都拿得到那這要查的是兩個方向囉"},{"start":15850.33,"end":15878.632,"text":"三家電信公司包括中華電信你讓數據公司以前主流有拿出來嗎你是不是真的做到你講的個資不出來你已經去了這個四倍化這個都要查啊是不是這樣所以不是只有你直接跟王逸川或者跟民進黨那個中間那個中介到底是什麼這要查得清楚第一我們民眾黨已經去函給中華電信了對不對我們就說這段時間只要是王逸川"},{"start":15880.481,"end":15903.667,"text":"你都沒有嗎?還沒有收到沒有?其實同情會是什麼?有兩種可能吧?有兩種可能就是你們要去做自己客觀的事情自己要證實說你沒有中華電信沒有做過這樣的一個所謂的統計跟分析啦到目前都是口說無憑嘛這其實有法務部有NCC要查好不好?好"},{"start":15904.817,"end":15927.661,"text":"那剛剛有做了一個結議了嘛就是這段時間資料會進來那我今天質詢很重要的一個點就是不是只有針對三家電信公司客觀的事實要呈現有沒有中間、中距的這個數位公司一定要查詢這個好不好最後我做個簡單的這個總結不要浪費大家的時間來我們再看下一張目前發言人問題是什麼就是個人唯一的那個識別碼那個coupon或是MAC"},{"start":15928.803,"end":15940.642,"text":"IMEC這個有沒有可能被電信業者是外洩的這是一個很重要的這個侵害尤其他如果拿到之後他做一個交叉他就可以確認你的身份地位你的這個個人的身份"},{"start":15941.527,"end":15948.991,"text":"那我們的個資老實講現在我們來碰到一個很大問題我們的個資法規範不夠重視啦主委都應該同我了解嘛歐盟他這個通用資訊的這個保護規則GDPR他早就納入這個保護的範圍啊全世界已經有50多個國家用這種規範包括日本、韓國都有我們為什麼沒有所以拜託主委你要回頭進行啊"},{"start":15965.58,"end":15967.541,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員的發言也再請中華電信這邊再回覆張祺凱委員的"},{"start":15995.132,"end":16021.146,"text":"發文,謝謝下一位我們請鄭天才委員主席各位委員有請數位發展部部長還有"},{"start":16022.543,"end":16050.712,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會陳竺偉防務部常務次長還有中華電信股份有限公司中華電信郭董事長各位好各位好這個王一川民進黨的政策會的執行長公然在媒體"},{"start":16053.727,"end":16081.668,"text":"講得非常的清楚用手機訊號比對青鳥行動519民眾黨的集會參與者2024大選選前之夜參與者年齡、身份、政黨傾向這是一個非常非常嚴重的今天要特別要拜託我們所有的公務員我是老公務員"},{"start":16083.018,"end":16110.487,"text":"看到這樣的一個我們就要主動到底我們的法有沒有足那尤其是今天這個檢察事務司檢察司也在所以這個部分我認為應該主動要去偵辦剛才張其凱委員講得非常清楚"},{"start":16113.399,"end":16141.204,"text":"所以這個到底這個怎麼樣能夠我認為他是真的王玉川不是胡亂的他講的是真的我認為是真的所以法務部、檢察司積極的要偵辦然後怎麼樣透過這樣的一個事實在法律上"},{"start":16143.103,"end":16163.737,"text":"在執行上要怎麼樣去檢討去防範我們就先談這個中華電信寫得很清楚啊克群分析特定族群你是國籍大陸你看都可以知道"},{"start":16166.471,"end":16192.396,"text":"剛才中華電信我們的董事長 董事長 你剛才一再的答覆我們的委員說王一川沒有申請 不是他 絕對不是他個人去跟你們申請你們也沒有提供給他 你們可能提供到別的地方去他透過其他的管道 剛才你一直講說那個我們的那個"},{"start":16195.498,"end":16208.664,"text":"相關這些科技防疫的這些你說你的用詞是什麼下架還是叫什麼平台下架平台下架資料銷毀銷毀了嗎對資料銷毀剛才因為我有聽你的答詢那時候沒有講銷毀資料銷毀了資料銷毀報告委員是銷毀之前呢"},{"start":16218.618,"end":16220.599,"text":"所以剛才張熙楷委員講的那個不清楚啊 對不對"},{"start":16246.178,"end":16252.48,"text":"請問一下這個要怎麼去處理?NCC嗎?還是蘇華部?這個不管哪一個部會,現在就要通力合作"},{"start":16272.912,"end":16287.335,"text":"這個會涉及到什麼﹖你打﹖你﹖徐貞燕最近送出來的四個打詐的你再訂的怎麼好 這個沒有那麼好全部都空的了 對不對人民常常 我也常常聽到接到電話詐騙的電話 怎麼連我的名字都知道呢"},{"start":16300.47,"end":16329.353,"text":"對不對也許我是立法院知道一般一般民眾也告訴我他怎麼知道我的電話也知道我的名字一般民眾這樣講啊也許他知道我是我是政治人物啊但是一般民眾告訴我他怎麼知道這個顯然就是毫無防範已經到這種地步啊所以你在打詐釋法釋法嗎你在定了在怎麼遮掩這個沒有弄好"},{"start":16332.082,"end":16358.287,"text":"一切都是突然的所以這個部分這個作為一個現在個資法現在是你還是誰現在我們現在已經有成立那個個資保護委員會的籌備處當然還沒有成立以前我們現在還是分散式的各個部會就它主管所以這個主管機關目前還是法務部嗎不是你們現在是誰籌備委員會"},{"start":16363.257,"end":16364.037,"text":"當然還是你法務部"},{"start":16390.854,"end":16393.758,"text":"法修了嗎?各自法修了嗎?各自法現在怎麼修的?主管機關?寫籌備處嗎?不會吧?"},{"start":16406.589,"end":16407.07,"text":"不管怎樣因為時間的關係"},{"start":16427.136,"end":16429.518,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員的發言,下一位我們請賴世保委員"},{"start":16465.4,"end":16490.77,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請NCC的陳主委、事務發部的黃部長法務部的黃次長、中華電信的郭董事長請陳主委、黃部長、黃次長、郭董事長我請教郭董事長你早上回答其他委員說國安局要跟你調資料媒體這樣寫啊"},{"start":16494.178,"end":16503.188,"text":"那個媒體剛早上回答就是提到說相關單位如果有來調資料就依照通保法的相關規定來調閱"},{"start":16506.699,"end":16509.04,"text":"我上個禮拜上爭論節目我的對面就是執政黨的一個公主人員"},{"start":16528.454,"end":16550.405,"text":"他就這麼大的一個看板一個手板啦中華電信他就是替王一川講話啦說中華電信提供這些資料手機定位清清楚楚三個配置是你們公開的資料中華電信"},{"start":16552.889,"end":16578.557,"text":"這裡面來講的話這一次來講的話王毓川說你們沒有他沒有跟你們要問題有沒有政黨人士跟你要報告委員沒有你確定嗎你確定嗎你董事長知道底下的人在誰跟人家要資料這資料怎麼來的這資料有啊在電視節目上都我的親眼看到啊就你們中華電信提供的啊中華電信"},{"start":16581.53,"end":16600.278,"text":"請您出座委員如果那個委員您提到是這節目上的人潮分析資料嗎他就是你們的不是人潮啊就什麼什麼這裡面就接近個資啊接近個資啊就中華電信提供的啊什麼就這樣的資料來我先請教"},{"start":16603.695,"end":16631.21,"text":"有什麼你再講一遍沒有我說委員如果有任何資料方便提供給我們我忘了copy啦我忘了給他照相啦我就節目製作單位弄給你節目法務部的次長這個案子現在立案沒有這個個案現在台北地檢署已經立案了已經立案現在是他治案對沒有錯他治案他現在就有點耍賴了說這個膝蓋響就等於是說他某種程度講是他亂講一通"},{"start":16633.243,"end":16655.274,"text":"可是這事情很嚴重他講出來就讓人家覺得台灣是一個警察孤家雷毫無隱私隨時天眼天聽天眼天耳都在你講什麼話都聽得到你做什麼事都看得見很可怕請問你他的如果有行者最高可以住幾年"},{"start":16656.206,"end":16668.592,"text":"國務部長,看它涉及什麼樣的犯罪?最高啦,我就通報法,違反通報法通報法它是五年以下的違反個資法呢?個資法也是五年以下請問手機的IP定位是不是個資?手機的IP當然是個資啊當然是個資,好,那個次長請回啦,中華電信留著齁,中華電信留著"},{"start":16683.643,"end":16697.273,"text":"這個請教NCC主委啊你們剛剛一直講我現在就來看一個請看一個資料喔審計部的公開審計報告講了非公務機關實名制完全沒有監督機合那個"},{"start":16698.496,"end":16720.436,"text":"那個要中華電信的國董還在你注意看喔你們跟他一直講來來來我就請教主委是不是都銷毀了都刪除了有沒有好你講的不對這是審計部的一個資料審計部資料講的是什麼第一個非公務器官中華電信是非公務器官7全家"},{"start":16721.809,"end":16739.554,"text":"以及全聯都是非公務機關委員來你聽我講等一下你們講的是你們講的是簡訊我講的是before你講的是After你簡訊的十連字這個你們消毀了沒有錯但是之前"},{"start":16741.132,"end":16744.938,"text":"之前 簡訊之前 進去啊 進去這個全聯啊 進去全接啊 進去7都有這個銷毀沒有"},{"start":16754.028,"end":16776.639,"text":"報告委員那個簡訊十連字的平台也都資料銷毀我跟妳講簡訊是用銷毀的嗎以前不是簡訊以前是直接用QR code進去來進去小QR code我進去7-11了我進去全家了我進去全聯了報告委員您提的那個QR code跟那個簡訊十連字就是同一件事"},{"start":16777.799,"end":16778.46,"text":"為什麼審計部指出沒有啊?"},{"start":16805.991,"end":16813.804,"text":"非公務機關指的就是中華電信指的就是全聯指的就是全家沒完全沒有監督機合"},{"start":16816.703,"end":16843.372,"text":"審計部啊審計部的報告啊審計部的報告啊報告委員那個應該是因為當時防疫的時候這種檢訊實驗室在推廣初期還有就是用手寫的不曉得委員還記不記得就是用手寫的那這部分應該是回饋到每個目的事業主管機關譬如說全聯他是經濟部的一些零售商那經濟部要督導全聯把那些手寫的"},{"start":16843.792,"end":16861.156,"text":"所以你們不敢保護嘛我現在告訴你那個資料現在都還在那個地方沒有消除沒有銷毀這個NCC可以再follow up一下嗎因為這個是衛福部的職權啦因為我們管的是那個電信的部分這個部分我們來處理來請教那個蘇華部的黃部長"},{"start":16866.697,"end":16894.268,"text":"過去唐鳳的時候是規定他所有的會議紀錄都是公開透明而且是逐字稿你看齁我寫齁速發布第19次部會議逐字稿結果5月8日之後就沒有了你上台以後就沒有了你是怎麼樣不要趕快透明了是不是不是我們會在我們不會有逐字稿但是我們的一些那個決策還是公開透明"},{"start":16896.009,"end":16913.067,"text":"人家都有組織稿的所以唐鳳的你不要了就對了講這樣也可以啦你說唐鳳的做得不好你不要也可以啦組織稿的做法對我來講是比較奇怪的做法那我們會有不同的做法來公開透明"},{"start":16914.247,"end":16933.277,"text":"我們會把就是我們的一些政策會很公開透明跟民眾你去考慮一下啦那個感覺齁唐鳳這個做法很好啊結果你怎麼會把這個不錯的政策把它砍掉啊你去思考一下最後一個問題數位部黃部長你知道嗎創意私房你知道吧"},{"start":16935.676,"end":16941.901,"text":"為什麼有啊?還有啊!這個網站在這裡啊!你看到!Metalfan這個本組是...盟主是老馬我把它蓋掉了這立法院的"},{"start":16966.64,"end":16985.934,"text":"對,我們有個那個...你封網確定嗎?對,對,我們應該是把它封了,而且我得到報告是已經封了,那我再回去...封了不徹底喔!封了不徹底喔!再回去檢查一下你...你...再不check一下喔!為什麼漏網之語喔!我去...我再去了解,不過我知道...來來來,你的方便目來跟你講說..."},{"start":16987.815,"end":17015.053,"text":"對 我們再跟委員部討論一下 這個上次我們這個 我們有從我們的TWNIC那個DNS你可以不可以答應一個禮拜以內重新check一遍封的結果怎麼樣 然後對外宣布對外宣布 發一個新聞稿所以我們根本查過了 絕對封網 絕對沒有死角我們剛剛講通訊機制就是TWNIC的DNSDNS設了以後 為什麼一個禮拜以內對外發新聞稿 可以吧我再給委員報告 好"},{"start":17019.418,"end":17033.697,"text":"再請數法部部長數法部了解後提供資料給賴氏寶委員下一位我們請廖先祥委員"},{"start":17047.506,"end":17056.111,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩幫我邀請我們這個NCC的陳朱偉還有中華電信郭董事長請陳朱偉郭董事長好兩位好原則上在我們一個民主國家一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的一個政論節目中所講的話我們原則上是可以相信的嘛對不對"},{"start":17074.997,"end":17075.137,"text":"我先確認一下"},{"start":17103.078,"end":17115.052,"text":"在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情是我們中華電信一些去識別化只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠調查出來的事情嗎"},{"start":17122.08,"end":17143.985,"text":"報告委員我們功能上沒有設定因為去識別化之後你就沒辦法回溯所以沒有辦法做不同所以就算有提供這份資料應該也是沒有辦法做這樣的判斷嗎是的是所以這份資料的來源那絕對也不應該就算他是真的的話也不會是正常的正式的管道來獲得嗎是不是應該可以這麼來理解"},{"start":17145.385,"end":17163.204,"text":"本公司沒有提供中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料好那所以說在這樣子的情況下我們中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對清掉活動或是之前講的特別活動提供特別的訊息的資料那我想確認一下有沒有"},{"start":17164.301,"end":17189.684,"text":"政府的單位長期以來有跟我們中華電信的機器房來做串接也就是說我們他們沒有跟你們提出申請但是我們是在無時無刻的把我們相關的通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定的單位有沒有委員沒有沒有中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理不可能做這樣的事包括國安單位任何的單位沒有也不可能無時無刻的去串接我們的資料獲取資訊"},{"start":17191.246,"end":17204.306,"text":"在假設王一川先生講的是事實的情況下 那我們目前可能 我的推論就只有一個可能了嘛 就是我們電信公司的系統被害了嘛 才有可能有這樣子的情況嘛"},{"start":17205.492,"end":17226.887,"text":"不然你們有想得出來其他的情況王一千先生手上拿的資料他是怎麼取得的嗎我們不清楚你不清楚嘛 對不對你們不清楚那唯一的可能就是但是他就是有資料嘛唯一的可能就是我們中華電信的網路資訊或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛我們之後有沒有被駭過有沒有辦法做事後的調查"},{"start":17228.496,"end":17253.342,"text":"報告委員,上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護的單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們燃潮分析的平台從5月17日到5月14日之間,這裡面沒有任何的異常的存取或使用這個平台應該也是整理過的一個平台嗎?對不對?那原始的資料呢?"},{"start":17254.366,"end":17282.795,"text":"有整理過了嗎?有去確認過了嗎?我們的這個原始的資料電信的信念資料呢都只在中華電信內部不可能這個外流剛才有報告其他委員有詢問個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事對個人資料一定是留在中華電信對你們數據分析確認沒有資料沒有沒有被盜過嗎?對那原始的最基本的資料在我們中華電信的內部嗎?是那這個東西有沒有被竊取過?或是長期來你們就會被竊取你們不知道啊"},{"start":17283.775,"end":17302.967,"text":"報告委員我們清查的過程是沒有發現有清查過嗎最原始的資料就剛才提到5月17日到24日之間我們相關的資料有這個整個平台有那是人流的平台嘛人流數據的平台嘛我現在講的是最原始的數據最原本的data你們有確認過了嗎這個資料我們有可能"},{"start":17304.298,"end":17325.696,"text":"大家都在講國家機器嘛有沒有可能某個單位長期來就是沒有經過你們的同意去調取去竊取你們的資料報告委員不可能發生這樣的事情我們會定期做這個治安相關的防護的檢查所以如果有任何這個異常的行為都會被我們發現所以你們確認你們最原始的資料以及你們整理過的人流資料在"},{"start":17327.476,"end":17340.516,"text":"長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣的一個狀況所以現在目前就是一個很大的羅生門那你們有猜想的出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎?"},{"start":17342.611,"end":17368.068,"text":"我們沒有這個時間去想這個好那目前唯一可能唯一可能的那就可能在政論頻道上面有他的說法有可能是唬爛嘛目前也有這種說法嘛那剛剛也有委員問的就是說我們現在NCC已經在調查了嘛那其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字啦寫說來賓的發言就可能"},{"start":17369.389,"end":17394.696,"text":"我們來賓發言不代表本台立場我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視台嗎還是說誰講的誰負責我們還是會依照我們的若實事實查證原則並不表示說他貼在那一張文字以後就免責所以說就算是來賓如果說未來的來賓在這段節目上面有一些虛也不實的說法那電視台應該也是要有相關的一個責任"},{"start":17395.776,"end":17422.212,"text":"這個主持人在主持整個節目過程裡面來講的話對於這個比如說這個有涉及到可能事實查證的部分這還是要他有一個維持的義務好那我就尊重我們後續的調查那最後一點因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛對不對那剛剛包括我們的吳宗憲委員還有我們的黃建浩委員都有提到我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候都會有定型化契約嘛那裡面可能就是有提到這個資料要不要提供我們會去勾選嘛對不對"},{"start":17423.112,"end":17440.109,"text":"那我想但是其實很多的民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼包括其實我個人我已經忘記我上次在簽門號的時候我勾了什麼嘛那現在既然已經變成一個是全國性的一個矚目的資安事件我們可不可以我們NCC可不可以請我們的三大"},{"start":17441.329,"end":17457.229,"text":"電信業者每個人去發簡訊給每個用戶告知你這個用戶當初在個資的定型化契約你是勾哪一個選項如果我們要調整我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改這部分可不可以"},{"start":17458.01,"end":17460.591,"text":"報告委員我們在個人資料提供的過程當中我們設定我們的D4是如果沒有勾就表示不同意是當然"},{"start":17483.86,"end":17501.952,"text":"好那但是我剛剛就講很多人就說這個東西大概就只是簽而已嘛大家不會去看那有時候可能也是這個服務人員引導啊就勾勾勾也有很多這樣的情形嘛對不對就是服務人員會引導嘛啊就勾勾勾那沒關係我們可不可以既然已經發生這樣的事情了很多人想要保護自己的個資"},{"start":17503.253,"end":17517.204,"text":"我也沒有說一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶但是至少我們NCC或者是三大電信業者應該要有一個公開的說明如果說我們的用戶想要取消相關的電信足跡的追蹤的話我們用戶可以怎麼做"},{"start":17518.084,"end":17521.045,"text":"謝謝6先生委員的發言下一位登記的委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在尤浩委員尤浩委員請"},{"start":17562.42,"end":17574.889,"text":"謝謝會議主席還有請NCC主委、陳耀祥、陳主委還有法務部、還有長賜、黃次長那今天就沒有特別問蘇法務部部長請陳主委、黃次長"},{"start":17579.285,"end":17603.163,"text":"主席好、長官好那在這裡本席要直接就教剛才許多的委員他都非常關心關注的在這次的議題那其實在這次王逸川他所提到的這個所謂的相關個資洩漏大家其實都其實心裡都非常的擔心擔憂啊服務處也接下了不下二三十通的電話"},{"start":17604.144,"end":17630.289,"text":"他很擔心的這個個資外洩啊所以網路甚至有一個梗圖啊就像這一則的這個圖片一樣當你發一則笑話的時候可能連王逸川都看到可能你發訊息給你太太的時候整個笑話可能王逸川都在笑那我們接著看下一頁那我想要先請教一下這個我們的主委那對於這個目前來講一個民進黨的政策會執行長那是不是因為他的這個不當發言啊"},{"start":17631.469,"end":17650.386,"text":"還造成了這個整個社會媒體的報導之下還大家的討論之下引起了軒然大波大家對於個資保護人心惶惶你認同嗎這個事情讓大家對於個資的保護更加重視那是會擔心吧擔心當然也會啦那所以說一個政策會執行長民進黨政策會執行長講這樣子的言論是正確的嗎"},{"start":17653.826,"end":17673.011,"text":"我們第一個我們現在不曉得他的狀況這個案的最終的資料情況是怎麼來但是如果是因為這樣的原因而引起個人資料的疑慮來解的話我們當然我們覺得應該有哪些地方沒有做好那我們繼續努力沒關係我直接請教一下市長就是對於這個就是兩種情況可能嘛"},{"start":17677.313,"end":17696.842,"text":"他在切割這個王逸川的發言我們都看到因為他那個發言明顯不當其實也是非常不適任作為一個政黨的偵測會執行長我想請教一下次長您是法律專家又是非常具有實務經驗以目前來講通保法第24條包括在資料上面所提出的以及說各自法41條"},{"start":17698.243,"end":17706.72,"text":"他包括詐欺他今天講的話如果說他是一個欺騙欺瞞在欺騙社會大眾的話哪一個的罪責比較重"},{"start":17709.222,"end":17731.93,"text":"這看到他具體的犯罪情節是什麼?如果說是詐欺罪他有可能處到一年以上、幾年以下的犯罪那如果說違反個資法41條的話個資法可能就五年以下五年以下嘛那所以說他今天他所這樣子去揭露大家的這個資料或是個資以及包括大家在這個目前他講說這些所謂的大家的定位還可以作為交叉分析的話這樣子是不是違反個資法?"},{"start":17733.11,"end":17739.294,"text":"更為報告你這已經涉及到這個個案了事實我們不明確所以我們沒有辦法就但是如果你這個太樣的話是違反國資法的嗎?"},{"start":17742.401,"end":17771.199,"text":"如果說以他這個部分他在這個手機定位的交叉分析他是充分擁有這些數據資料如他所講的話那他就是違反個資法的一個狀況各位報告我們不要講這個個案我們抽離這個個案前提就是說如果有沒有違反個資法必須要前提是他是不是我們個資法上所保護的個資啦前提是這一關反正他現在來講他只有承認他資料哪裡來或者是說他今天的話他沒有這個資料就是譬如說一年以下或五年以下之一嘛"},{"start":17772.159,"end":17777.402,"text":"那在手機定位的交叉分析手機定位的這件事情那請問主委這次收到各自把保護沒有錯"},{"start":17790.47,"end":17810.64,"text":"如果是數據來講的話就不是個資如果是個資比如說這樣的話當然是就會有個資法的適用的問題那其實跟主委直接提到了王逸川他所講的這些人跟原人的小草有去比對過當然王逸川他說這個跟伍儀奇在民進黨樓下那些小草訊號比起來也不同人"},{"start":17811.3,"end":17822.44,"text":"所以說小草也沒跑但是這一批人跟那一批人上次選舉1月13日之前選前職業人去對也沒有關係那請問主委這叫做有趣識別化嗎?"},{"start":17824.576,"end":17843.781,"text":"從他的個資看起來來講的話他沒有涉及到所謂的特定的個人但是就他這如何其實這個案件裡面最我個人也比較好奇是他如何去比對這個問題因為一般來講的話我們如果是數據應用分析來講的話比如說這個這段時間跟以前那段時間以前那段時間來講這個資料到底還在不在或這個"},{"start":17845.902,"end":17866.268,"text":"所以主委我直接講啦就是說這種來講就是沒有去識別化所以你回答的你也很很為難很無力啊因為你要幫王逸川編你也點頭了我沒有幫他編我只是說你也點頭了沒有錯各自侵害的問題對這是各自侵害的問題所以就其實他這個就是很明顯的就叫做沒有去識別化那依照歐盟第29條資料保護工作小組來講其實在王逸川在政論時間上所講的"},{"start":17871.269,"end":17887.915,"text":"他是絕對已經可以清楚讓社會大眾聽到他所提的言語已經可以辨識那些人出席什麼樣的政治活動所以說這個部分用去識別化來帶過包括當初祖密的回覆啊那查得出東西嗎?這樣回覆是很難的"},{"start":17888.835,"end":17905.428,"text":"所以說其實還是要跟主委講今天剛才在審查這個提案的時候其實如果說3個月2個月這個沒有辦法讓大家社會幸福因為這件事情來講它嚴重的影響到未來訴發部以及行政要通過這個就是我們打詐專法的部分"},{"start":17905.968,"end":17907.51,"text":"最後我還是要請中華電信這邊在有人跟我們辦公室爆料"},{"start":17925.428,"end":17942.786,"text":"說在這個中華電信大數據分析服務方案來講那大家應該找中華電信當問責的對象那我在這裡我直接因為時間階段提出那有人有明確跟本席辦公室提到中華電信法律事務處副處長副總經理魏惠珍是以前柯建銘的助理"},{"start":17943.487,"end":17964.899,"text":"所以說這個是也是很玄的那所以說手機定位不同場次不同群體的交叉分析中華電信這個部分如何做好一個資料的保密啊那因為時間到了我想請這件事情因為有人跟我爆料所以我想說還是請您會後再跟我這邊做回覆好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝有號委員的發言請會後再向有號委員"},{"start":17970.496,"end":17984.004,"text":"報告下一位登記的委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在請張志文委員張志文委員張志文委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在請黃國昌委員"},{"start":18002.306,"end":18017.237,"text":"謝謝主席。是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳柱惠以及中華電信的郭董事長。請陳柱惠、請郭董事長。委員好。"},{"start":18021.059,"end":18036.934,"text":"主委好 董事長主委我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追因為前面有個NCC主委蕭啟宏他留了詐團的門聖這件事情人神共憤我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明"},{"start":18039.605,"end":18056.315,"text":"那上一次我說針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用那我問你說NCC有沒有行政裁處你說要等到檢察官偵查結束你要進行行政調查才會裁處我相信應該主委還記得吧"},{"start":18057.358,"end":18083.525,"text":"我們已經有採取相關的案件來那2024年1月起訴了嘛那從我上次詢問到現在經過一段時間現在採取的結果是什麼針對飛速移動台灣卓域跟25電信那個平台數什麼時候採取的?採取的結果是什麼?因為我一直在查NCCR相關的委員會議新聞稿我都沒找到"},{"start":18085.169,"end":18107.311,"text":"現在採取的結果是什麼我們採取的是海峽電信還有那個那個是之前另外一個案子去年的案子啊早就處理完了啦我上次在問你的就是針對這個蕭祺鴻擔任顧問這個飛速移動台灣卓越跟25電信嘛我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了你說你要時間嘛那現在採取的結果是什麼是"},{"start":18107.551,"end":18108.292,"text":"主委你還需要多久還需要多久"},{"start":18137.079,"end":18164.614,"text":"跟委員報告25電信跟台灣卓伊他並非電信事業那25電信他提供的服務並因為下面的這個資訊是黑莓卡那25電信他並沒有是提供這種黑莓他提供的是黑莓卡並會提供電信服務所以變成的是說這都不是屬於NCC採取的範圍是嗎目前為止我們看到的訊息25電信跟台灣卓伊是如此你們那個行政調查報告還要多久"},{"start":18165.933,"end":18189.353,"text":"我們看過這個起訴書上面的這個訊息目前的為止是二五電訊他現在已經來宗旨跟我們匯值他的電信服務的重點對不起這不是我的問題啊你有兩種可能的答案第一個我沒有要做行政調查但這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛主委上次跟我說你要做行政調查嘛那我現在的問題很具體行政調查什麼時候會出來"},{"start":18191.363,"end":18217.32,"text":"我們現在所了解的資料就是臺灣卓伊他並不是他沒有提供電信服務所以他不是電信事業所以在如果說調查完應該是目前這樣的一個情形所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎請數位這個行政調查來講是說比如說這兩家還有沒有其他的比如說像黑莓卡跟比特幣這個部分那這個會涉及到相關的法律是什麼那我們要比如說是行政調查沒有沒有這還是在處理當中所以還要處理多久"},{"start":18221.425,"end":18244.983,"text":"不是 要看處理什麼事情如果說比如說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話沒有啦 我請主委齁再回去看一下我們上次詢答的那個我們打詐司法裡面來講的話比如針對黑媒現在我不是在講打詐司法這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查跟委員報告我們現在已經針對二五電信去調查過他提供的服務行政調查報告什麼時候可以做出來"},{"start":18246.414,"end":18275.304,"text":"我們目前並沒有發現二五電訊在這一件事情上有違反我們電網法上面的規定所以他被起訴了但是沒有違法是這樣嗎沒有沒有他起訴違法但是違反相關的刑法的規定嘛那行政調查來講他們只是說我們當時有調查沒有關係嘛如果你今天行政調查的結果是他沒有違反相關的法律那也是一個調查的結論嘛那我的意思就是我現在不要聽你們講的白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":18276.758,"end":18285.566,"text":"還需要多久?你說現在調查完了,那你等一下可能回去就可以寫行政調查報告嗎?那你的行政調查報告經不經典型檢驗站來講嗎?行政調查報告順便說明一下檢察官上面所點出來的事情蕭啟宏他協助"},{"start":18299.059,"end":18324.753,"text":"二五電信公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司人員接洽跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?在行政調查報告當中一併說明可以嗎?好來請中華電信董事長中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去了解這個詐騙的門神蕭啟宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫?"},{"start":18329.365,"end":18343.357,"text":"本人有了解有跟主管聯繫但後面我們都沒有進行任何的合作沒有關係齁他跟誰聯繫聯繫的事項是什麼中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明"},{"start":18345.227,"end":18359.486,"text":"可以嗎?可以嘛,好那針對大家今天很關心的事情也就是說涉及到在不同的時間跟空間使用這一些電信使用人"},{"start":18360.547,"end":18379.134,"text":"不管是不是有去識別化因為你即使有去識別化如果有ID做連結還是要回溯才能做比對嘛我想這個基本的common sense大家都有來請中華電信董事長5月19號的時候我發函給中華電信所以我要跟你們購買2024年5月19號在"},{"start":18385.595,"end":18414.529,"text":"北平東路的大型集會2024年5月24日臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路大型集會你們產品裡面的人潮客群分析的這個產品那請問針對這兩場集會中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析我們沒有從來就沒有做過好那如果我今天要跟你們買你們會出售嗎我們沒有的話就無從出售第二你們可以回去做啊"},{"start":18415.137,"end":18442.434,"text":"第二 這個我們公司基本上基於這個行政中立政治中立的一個立場還有在政策上我們不承接這個政黨還有這個涉及到包括選舉或者是有所以政黨沒有選舉沒有好 那我就進一步要具體的請教就是說因為你們講得很清楚了啦你東西都沒有提供給王玉川嘛我們姑且相信"},{"start":18443.194,"end":18463.513,"text":"我們姑且相信但我現在要進一步的問是說不管是在北平東路的519還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候周遭所聚集的人群到目前為止中華電信從來沒有做過人群客氣分析我們沒有從來沒有做過嘛好那第二個"},{"start":18464.997,"end":18494.176,"text":"今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話你們也不會出手我們拒絕提供這方面的服務你們拒絕提供這方面的服務那我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題就是說中華電信裡面過去這段時間當中被媒體披露有非常多的綠油友有非常多的綠油友當然他們是按照自己的專業還是按照"},{"start":18495.492,"end":18517.51,"text":"政治關係到中華電信去認知我相信這社會會公平我現在具體的問題是從2018年以後到現在中華電信有沒有針對譬如說像選舉的時候選前之夜這種人群的聚集做過任何的分析"},{"start":18518.157,"end":18519.419,"text":"從2018年到現在如果有人手上拿到"},{"start":18531.833,"end":18550.055,"text":"針對這一個客群進行分析因為今天董事長說中華電信從來沒做過嘛就我的了解沒有好如果有人手上有這樣子的人群客群分析他一定是偷偷的非法的使用你們的data去進行分析我這樣子的理解對嗎"},{"start":18553.629,"end":18563.041,"text":"因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛就正常的管道公開的從來沒做過嘛現在大家在質疑的是什麼有沒有私底下"},{"start":18564.164,"end":18585.864,"text":"用這個data去做私底下的分析所以我的問題很簡單中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析我的理解沒有錯吧如果有人手上拿到這個東西一定是非法使用對不對"},{"start":18588.01,"end":18599.029,"text":"我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料對啦你說你沒有提供這方面的資料我姑且信之嘛但我的意思就是說如果有人手上有的話那一定是非法使用對不對"},{"start":18600.441,"end":18629.801,"text":"中華電信要有個立場啊我們沒有做過這個事啊如果有人背著中華電信的高層董總不知道私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情中華電信絕不容許一定是非法的追究法律責任到底董事長可不可以展現這個態度這個如果有這個剛才委員所提的相關的個案我們一定會查明役處究責好下一個來最後請主委不好意思再一分鐘就好"},{"start":18630.981,"end":18647.829,"text":"依照個人資料保護法22條的規定中央目的主管機關或是其實地方政府他為了要去確保有關於個人資料保護認為有必要的話是不是可以進行行政調查如果依照個人資料保護法22條的規定如果對於"},{"start":18653.24,"end":18677.676,"text":"本法所規定第一項第二項他可以做什麼他可以進入那個場所他可以檢查或者是處分喔他可以要求你提出資料喔還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧主委是我們就是基本上是用機場的手段去處理好"},{"start":18678.556,"end":18696.999,"text":"到目前為止,你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查?報告委員,其實我們非常重視個資,NCC成立以後至少我了解108年就開始每一年都要求"},{"start":18698.041,"end":18719.161,"text":"108年開始每一年通通都有檢查舉例來說像去年大概在七八月完成那我們今年也排定在八九月也陸陸續續也要去進行看業者有沒有落實他的個資維護計畫我先確定一下啦你們從108年就有做行政檢查到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況對不對"},{"start":18720.916,"end":18723.258,"text":"對嘛 所以我說依照法律效果來講可以罰多少錢"},{"start":18749.214,"end":18774.529,"text":"2萬元到20萬元以下 2萬以上20萬以下嘛還有第25條的各項處分嘛好最後一個最關鍵的問題來請中華電信董事長還有NCC主委一併回答最後的問題齁剛剛NCC說了嘛從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對各支進行行政檢查這個行政檢查的檢查報告NCC可不可以提供"},{"start":18778.073,"end":18805.481,"text":"需要多久每一年喔從你們開始做到現在喔每一年的行政檢查的報告可不可以提供報告委員我們大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下因為我剛才108年是我任職啦那我回去再確定我們倒過來從比如說從2011年我們回去沒有關係啊你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛看你做幾年所有的行政檢查報告都交出來可以嗎"},{"start":18806.021,"end":18806.702,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員的發言登記"},{"start":18828.871,"end":18856.75,"text":"登記質詢委員均與發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員中嘉賓張志倫所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請列席相關部會及中華電信競速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢現在休息6月6日星期四上午9點繼續開會"},{"start":18884.387,"end":18884.407,"text":"感謝謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15973","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e572295eeeb9359418bd03a951da4504b3be8d109af184be4ac42c691794f1d965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T08:30:14+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-06-03T12:29:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14326,"委員發言時間":"08:30:14 - 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"end":2127.807,"text":"收支劃分法第16條之一條緣修正草案等二案、本院委員代事保等29人擬具財政收支劃分法第16條之二、第37條之二及第38條之二條緣修正草案。"},{"start":2139.934,"end":2163.965,"text":"收支劃分法第38條之一條緣修正草案、二、審查財政收支劃分法3案、一、本院委員丁學中等17人擬具財政收支劃分法部分條緣修正草案、二、本院委員黃建豪等21人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第12條條緣修正草案、三、本院委員邱振軍等19人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條、第12條及第16條之一條緣修正草案、先提完畢。"},{"start":2165.782,"end":2194.719,"text":"介紹現場黃珊珊黃委員黃國昌黃委員財政部部長莊翠雲法制處代理處長黃慧玲國庫署署長陳柏辰負稅署署長宋秀琳官務署署長彭英偉"},{"start":2197.063,"end":2213.858,"text":"國有財產署署長曾國基、城鎮資訊中心主任張文希、行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝、內政部民政司專門委員劉立芳、國家發展委員會經濟發展處專門委員郭永騰、"},{"start":2226.345,"end":2251.166,"text":"民族民族委員會副處長宏林環境部大氣環境師專門委員陳宜嘉華部參事林豐文接著介紹臺北市政府財政局副局長鍾志耀新北市政府財政局專門委員蔣喬梅"},{"start":2254.858,"end":2281.722,"text":"台南市財政局專賣委員簡雅慧、台東市政府財政局主秘李子玲、台南市財政局專賣委員陳家慶、高雄市政府財政局專賣委員黃琛、新竹縣政府財政處科長蔡士煌、"},{"start":2283.953,"end":2311.935,"text":"苗栗縣政府財政處專員李慧琴南桃縣政府財政處科長林靜娟雲林縣政府財政處副處長張志萌嘉義縣財政稅務局副局長王美義宜蘭縣政府財政局副局長蔡育婉"},{"start":2314.158,"end":2328.468,"text":"花蓮縣政府財政處副處長黃淑梅台東縣政府財政基金發展處副處長葉振鶴澎湖縣政府財政處科員許銘賢金門縣政府參議呂清福財政處處長陳國廷連江縣財政稅務局科長張壽民"},{"start":2342.642,"end":2356.399,"text":"基隆市政府財政處科研員廖宇軒新竹市政府財政處副處長黃湘玲佳伊市政府財政稅務局科研員李佳芳"},{"start":2358.1,"end":2386.785,"text":"那這裡也報告一下禮拜三早上有一個會議邀請22縣市首長都來有缺錢的來沒缺的就不要來沒關係那禮拜三還要舉辦一個公聽會也歡迎各縣市的市長、縣長來發表一下他們自己權益的問題所有的委員都會在以供最後的一個定奪跟參考現在我們"},{"start":2388.397,"end":2413.856,"text":"進入今日議程的安排。繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨員擬具財劃法等14案。繼續審查一、委員丁學忠等17人擬具財劃法分條文修正草案。二、委員黃健豪等21人擬具財劃法第8條及第12條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2414.605,"end":2428.014,"text":"三、委員邱正軍等19人擬具財放法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案案。五、針對本日議程因為5月20"},{"start":2430.017,"end":2449.726,"text":"的會議以詢答之第八委員做以下宣告本日會議委員若有相關修正動議請送財政委員會議事人員收件以後續的審查程序二現依登記順序請登記第九位的黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":2462.74,"end":2469.585,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、"},{"start":2476.391,"end":2476.911,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．�"},{"start":2506.754,"end":2509.975,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：（事由：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案：（事由：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案。"},{"start":2534.121,"end":2541.086,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員"},{"start":2563.581,"end":2564.922,"text":"財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2585.299,"end":2592.401,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、"},{"start":2612.648,"end":2614.53,"text":"收支劃分法．一、繼續審查．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、"},{"start":2638.729,"end":2645.117,"text":"收支劃分法 包括委員、包括大家來做說明。主席長,你的立場不要告訴我你換了位置又換了腦袋。」"},{"start":2647.047,"end":2671.867,"text":"事實上是情況有改變整個有做改變那當初我在的時候那時候在台南市的時候的確是困難的確是困難的確困難而且他舉債額度非常的高但是後來呢在102年他有修改那個公債法所以好一點點對在舉債方面壓力就沒有那麼大我想大家都知道"},{"start":2672.648,"end":2682.45,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等23人分別擬具、「財政"},{"start":2699.833,"end":2710.189,"text":"沒有一個完整、清楚或者是明確的方式最重要的是這一次各位看到各個版本16個版本裡面都在討論其實都在討論垂直分配的問題"},{"start":2711.055,"end":2712.837,"text":"收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2732.839,"end":2734.701,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續"},{"start":2758.419,"end":2784.852,"text":"每一年有這麼多的稅劇剩餘的情況下大概有2000億的錢這個餅可以拿下來分給地方政府這是我們認為比較合理的方式這也是我們希望行政院包括財政部包括主計處把你們中央政府你到底要有多少錢你到底有多少錢可以拿出來分配把它講清楚說明白兩位了解我的意思嗎?如果我們的版本你們認為有問題也請你們說出來你們的問題"},{"start":2787.893,"end":2801.103,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委員會議第23次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第27次全體委員會議第28次全體委員會議第28次全體委員會議第29次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第31次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第33次全體委員會"},{"start":2811.05,"end":2832.358,"text":"行政院要有自己的態度,要把這些說清楚,不要再造成社會的衝突,更不要造成地方政府大家可能會有互相對立的狀況,這都不是財劃法應該有的結果。兩位,我都相信你們都是非常優秀的事務官身上來的,所以在事務官的"},{"start":2833.462,"end":2834.803,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2851.713,"end":2867.214,"text":"稍後請自己想辦法,對吧?每一次都這樣。我們在台北市的時候也發現,中央只要請客,地方就要買單。但地方的錢從哪裡來?就是看中央政府,啊我今年補助款再給你多一點,好了。"},{"start":2867.594,"end":2868.454,"text":"收支劃分法 明年有沒有?"},{"start":2868.454,"end":2894.388,"text":"不知道。」這才是為什麼要修財法法的主要原因因為不明確、不公開、不透明就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種種的狀況到今天為止就像剛剛主席處長講的因為他在地方政府待過財政困難的時候求助無門最後變成什麼?養中央的鼻息所以我們希望財化法是要把這些分配的方式"},{"start":2895.376,"end":2898.52,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具"},{"start":2913.635,"end":2936.209,"text":"行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度。如果賴總統他在當市長當院長的時候都提過第二個這個法已經25年沒有修了第三個我剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚"},{"start":2937.23,"end":2961.322,"text":"收支出場的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢到底會影響多少讓人民知道不是這個不是一個零和遊戲也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲而是大家都能夠健全財政然後讓地方政府回到他既有的地方自治我再講一個數字六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%"},{"start":2965.011,"end":2991.497,"text":"一般的縣市他的自籌款23%到27%兩位你覺得這樣合理嗎一般的縣市他只有25%來自於自籌款其他都要靠中央補助他怎麼過日子他只能每天在這邊吵吵吵然後喊窮然後靠著中央給他們的憐憫給他多點錢25到27%的自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政部長你的看法"},{"start":2992.037,"end":3017.706,"text":"是,委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配也就是說我們現在就是在努力水平分配這一塊把差距一直縮小然後讓它共識為更大這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分所以我們努力的是這一塊過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識我希望你把你做的這個事情把它入法"},{"start":3018.386,"end":3020.649,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3039.648,"end":3042.45,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答"},{"start":3067.268,"end":3081.699,"text":"我都沒有意見請你拿出來讓他入法你的基準、你的公式讓他入法我問了三個月我要看到你的版本我希望星期三我可以看到你的版本在我們審查的同時我可以看到你的版本好嗎?謝謝黃委員"},{"start":3088.974,"end":3114.314,"text":"也請部長禮拜三還有時間也請盡快禮拜三把你們的版本準備好謝謝現場介紹李燕秀李委員所以請問這堂委員剛剛所宣讀的議事錄的內容有沒有錯誤沒有錯誤好議事錄確定接著繼續質詢請黃國昌黃委員"},{"start":3128.295,"end":3129.676,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":3152.247,"end":3169.713,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案。民進黨在野的時候主張修財政收支劃分法。我之前在質詢的時候其實也帶部長看過那個時候是民主進步黨的主席蘇貞昌率領著他們執政的縣市長出來說財政收支劃分法沒有修正"},{"start":3177.537,"end":3202.326,"text":"然後看到這些縣市財政困境就像小孩子嗷嗷待哺米缸空空如也的感受2015年蔡英文在競選總統的時候她有主張要修正財政收支劃分法等到民眾黨執政了以後我們現任的總統賴清德"},{"start":3203.591,"end":3228.914,"text":"當初在擔任行政院院長的時候他也承諾要修正財政收支劃分法那到目前為止我們看到的是持續跳跳那2018年的時候啊賴清德行政院長他也承諾要提出院版的草案那目前院版的草案進度如何請教部長"},{"start":3230.204,"end":3256.258,"text":"跟委員報告我們財政部已經初步擬了修法的方向然後也請各地方政府就有關分配的指標提出意見相關的差距其實是蠻大而且指標多達30或到50個那我們目前來說是因為趕快要縮小這個差距然後凝聚一個最大的共識這是水平分配的部分跟委員報告沒有我對不起你沒有回答我的問題我說行政院的判斷還要多久"},{"start":3256.923,"end":3261.516,"text":"行政院的版本我們必須把共識間凝聚出來所以沒有時間表"},{"start":3262.779,"end":3285.287,"text":"當然因為過往也跟剛剛跟黃委員也報告過了過往雖然在88年以後也歷經5次提出《財化法》的修正但是為什麼沒有能夠完成立法就是因為沒有共識所以沒有共識情況下提出立法的版本其實是所以現在財政部的立場我們目的就是要把它完成所以他才不好意思請部長針對問題回答我還是一樣的問題就是"},{"start":3289.198,"end":3310.89,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案。目前行政院版本的草案沒有時間表,是嗎?好,你們針對目前財化法的研修方向,你們提出了五個重要的研修方向,這個是你們在5月20號所提出來的版本。那第一個研究方向是擴大中央統籌分配款"},{"start":3311.85,"end":3332.168,"text":"的規模。」剛剛你一直都在推給水平分配我們前幾次質詢的時候這些問題都討論過了我們針對問題具體的來談你們所提出的研修方向第一個擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模那請問你們針對這個研修方向目前的規劃是什麼?"},{"start":3333.302,"end":3360.92,"text":"跟委員報告擴大統籌分配稅款的規模是我們的一個方向但是在這個規模﹖具體的內容是什麼具體的內容我們必須要去思考第一個我們要考量地方的財政需求是要考量的同時也要考量中央必須要維持一定的財政韌性以及事權有沒有要做調整因為經費跟事權是有相關聯的那這個部分呢我們也會會同主計總結所以現在具體的內容是什麼具體的內容就是跟剛剛委員報告是這樣的"},{"start":3362.93,"end":3389.836,"text":"你剛沒有談到任何具體的內容所以現在是沒有具體的內容就對了嗎?沒有具體內容我們來看一下歷經了過去民進黨在野的時候的呼籲民進黨執政的時候的承諾到現在2024年了不分黨派的地方首長都急修大聲的呼籲要修財劃法"},{"start":3391.192,"end":3418.49,"text":"我針對財政部在秀給大家數字的時候數字的呈現是一門藝術這個是你們在5月20號的時候所提出的版本嘛你們給大家對嘛,好林志本上面想要跟大家講的是說其實我們中央對地方政府經常性裁員挹注的情況數額不斷在增加嘛"},{"start":3419.728,"end":3444.56,"text":"這是你們從2014年到2023年數字增長你們所畫的圖應該沒有錯吧是的就是我們除了統籌分配稅款之外還有加上一般性的補助款來我請教一下部長你們過去這8年統籌分配款佔國稅的比例是增加還是減少不好意思請部長回答"},{"start":3450.016,"end":3469.898,"text":"統籌分配款占國稅的比例是增加還是減少?」我一直說啦統計數字的呈現有高度的藝術性當你用絕對值來畫的時候你要告訴全體國人的是中央統籌分配款分配給地方的數額不斷的增加嘛它占國稅的比例是增加還減少"},{"start":3471.654,"end":3493.413,"text":"額﹑第一個,絕對數字是增加的,在比例上是唯有下降,但是我們有透過一般性的補助款可以補助。不好意思喔,部長請您繼續去看齁。中央統籌分配款佔國稅的比例逐年下降。2014年的時候,14.64,到現在2023年,去年最新的數字,這不是我算的。"},{"start":3494.489,"end":3513.125,"text":"這是財政部的數字算出來的降低到了13.66所以分配給地方中央統籌分配款的比例佔國稅的數額是逐年的在下降剛剛部長提到了補助款一般性的補助款佔國稅的比例是逐年上升還下降怎麼你會比我還不熟"},{"start":3521.46,"end":3534.745,"text":"這個部分有高有低啦好來我們再來看一下2014年的時候一般補助款占國稅的比例18.88%從2016年以降有超過這個水平的大概只有2020年占了19.05但"},{"start":3541.325,"end":3568.646,"text":"到了2022年、2023年的時候又降到了14.40當統籌分配款分給地方佔國稅的比例每一年下降一般補助款過去8年跟以前比起來所佔的比例一樣在下降我們看最後的這個把統籌分配款跟一般的補助款佔國稅的比例來請部長看一下這個圖"},{"start":3571.816,"end":3600.106,"text":"從2014年33.53%到了2023年的時候已經下降多少?到28.06%了這兩根柱子我們分別統籌分配款也好、補助款也好你們在財政部的報告裡面不願意接候的數字是什麼?佔國稅的percentage實際上是什麼?實際上過去這8年跟以前比起來是逐年在下降"},{"start":3600.814,"end":3625.537,"text":"那現在問題就來了如果在民進黨執政以前修財政收支劃分法是必要的要去擴大給地方政府的財源是必要的那為什麼在民主進步黨執政以後民民所佔的比例是下降的民民所佔的比例是下降的那現在對於修財劃法的態度"},{"start":3626.673,"end":3631.111,"text":"中央政府展現出來的就是能拖就拖嘛!能混就混嘛!"},{"start":3632.8,"end":3659.791,"text":"來我最後一個最關鍵的問題你剛說有很多版本這個版本我全部都整理出來了有陳水扁時期的政院版有馬英九時期的政院版有馬英九執政時期的時候民眾黨的黨團版針對垂直分配的問題到底要怎麼樣去擴大統籌分配款的財源從陳水扁喔"},{"start":3660.811,"end":3684.631,"text":"到馬英九喔到馬英九時期在野的民主進步黨黨團全部都有版本現在我們苦苦在等一直問問不到的是過去8年蔡英文政府徹底跳票因為這是蔡英文總統在2015年提出來的承諾嘛說她過去8年徹底跳票這句話一點說的都沒有錯現在問題來了賴清德總統上任了"},{"start":3688.334,"end":3692.496,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":3711.022,"end":3726.855,"text":"公務員報告,對於這個部分我們必須要考量一個時間的不同,中央跟地方的一個財政狀況必須要重新考量。我們剛剛看到具體的數字,就是分配給地方的數額,佔國稅的比例逐年下降啊。"},{"start":3727.735,"end":3749.733,"text":"這完全是財政部的data我沒有說錯啊但是中央支出同樣也是增加比如說像社福經費就達到9000多元但整體的經費達到27%還有國防支出所以我覺得這個部分必須要從整體來看沒有關係啦中央有非常多的支出我們都了解中央有非常多的支出我們都了解buffer line是"},{"start":3751.397,"end":3766.534,"text":"那新的總統、新的內閣有沒有要像過去一樣的政府負責任的提出行政院的版本?有還是沒有?跟委員報告第一個為過去提出版本為什麼沒有能夠完成修法"},{"start":3766.914,"end":3785.574,"text":"就是因為沒有共識就是地方之間分配沒有共識所以我們不好意思喔我現在在問你的是垂直分配的問題垂直分配剛剛也報告過第一個我們會把水平分配這邊調整完以後跟主計總處做整體的討論第一個地方的財政是需要考慮重要的財政認証依然要維持"},{"start":3788.236,"end":3814.319,"text":"所以目前財政部的立場是你所謂的共識是過半的縣市有共識就可以還是要所有的縣市都有共識?我們一定要把這個縮小一定讓他達到最大的一個共識所以你的共識指的是什麼?只要有一個縣市提出不同的公式反對財化法就不用修嗎?是這樣嗎?我們也要告訴他原因是什麼讓他能夠接受所以你們的版本什麼時候要提出來?"},{"start":3815.44,"end":3842.634,"text":"現在這個部分就是在凝聚共識的過程嘛我提的版本大家都沒有共識也沒有用我這樣說好了啦從2018年賴清德當行政院長到現在2024年繼續用沒有共識當作唐賽的理由我個人是沒有辦法接受那沒有關係接下來我們財委會就要召開公聽會進行實質的審查我希望賴清德總統賴清德總統"},{"start":3844.835,"end":3861.683,"text":"不要忘了他自己在2018年當行政院院長的時候做出來的承諾現在用水平分配地方政府沒有共識當作藉口連行政院的版本都提不出來謝謝不是藉口謝謝委員謝謝接著請李燕秀、李文芝"},{"start":3878.311,"end":3879.772,"text":"我請部長。請莊部長。謝謝部長。部長辛苦了。剛才聽到幾位委員的質詢,還有包括前幾天的質詢,25年沒有修的財劃法。到今天為止,上一次,我想無論是過去的賴清德、賴市長,"},{"start":3903.695,"end":3904.596,"text":"收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3925.913,"end":3928.075,"text":"收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分"},{"start":3941.447,"end":3958.978,"text":"從今天這幾位委員質詢起來我聽到的感覺就是中央想要集權又要集錢剛才用說地方沒有共識所以沒辦法修過去我也曾聽到這個部長曾經提說修法沒有時間表我覺得你們在玩兩套策略"},{"start":3963.908,"end":3985.883,"text":"只要擔任地方的縣市首長,無論是過去的賴市長,包括今天所有各縣不管是哪一個縣市執政,都認為財法法是應該要修的。你講到說修法沒有時間表,特別剛才講到說沒有共識,我剛才也聽到其他委員提到說,你的共識指的是什麼?"},{"start":3986.804,"end":4006.075,"text":"我們當然希望共識可以極小化、極大化少數一兩個或許有不同意見但是在立法院也好在行政院也好哪一個推出的版本幾乎很少說是百分之百百分之九十八、百分之九十七已經是不錯了"},{"start":4007.694,"end":4009.415,"text":"收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、"},{"start":4033.124,"end":4060.75,"text":"這些大稅過去幾年成長到百分之一百零四增加稅這幾年玩股票的人很多啊有漲幅的空間地方收到什麼地方收到地價稅、土地增值稅、房屋稅這些佔了總稅的百分之十三而已這些稅漲幅有限所以各縣市每年都RR代補"},{"start":4062.301,"end":4064.362,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查〈立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答"},{"start":4085.08,"end":4110.207,"text":"但是我們地方要負責的是什麼?包括人事費的調漲第一年可能中央出第二年中央還不一定百分之百出我們的交通建設我們的社會安全網要地方來支付我們的淨零減碳或者是警政治安還有委辦事項地方知識委辦事項這些項目這幾年不漲"},{"start":4111.843,"end":4134.059,"text":"委辦事項的項目越來越多。」所以我剛才提到這是一個不公不義又不仁的版本現在的財劃法它是到了一個非說不得的地步有人說這個是藍白何來包圍中央哪來的藍白何來包圍中央過去民進黨"},{"start":4136.139,"end":4152.455,"text":"縣市首長﹖我不知道今天的黃偉哲幾位縣市首長是不是也認為財務法不要修了我希望不要換了一個位置換了一個腦袋因為過去的賴市長也認為應該要修好我們來看一張圖中央挹注地方財源的狀況我們來看下一張"},{"start":4155.745,"end":4159.828,"text":"一般補助跟專案的收入以台北市為例大家都說台北市統籌分配稅款最多495億那又加上一個補助的收入179億"},{"start":4182.659,"end":4186.151,"text":"合加起來在111年台北市總共收到674億"},{"start":4188.942,"end":4214.675,"text":"那我們以台中、高雄來看好了,台中的統籌分配稅管在民國111年是425億,但是它的高雄的補助收入卻達到437億,所以它的總合計中央給它的錢達到862億,所以它的排序是第一。我剛剛為什麼說地方嗷嗷呆不要看中央臉色,以補助收入來說,"},{"start":4216.428,"end":4218.871,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．"},{"start":4240.933,"end":4259.256,"text":"但是如果不是一個穩健的地方財源收入長期的中央藝術地方財源收入的話他就不敢大刀闊斧的去做長遠的地方建設的規劃我想部長你非常清楚我在講什麼所以我必須還是要提部長時間表到底有沒有如果沒有共識你還是不打算修嗎"},{"start":4268.885,"end":4283.459,"text":"委員沒有共識的話立法怎麼會通過就如過去五度的提出修法版本但是為什麼沒有完成立法的修法的程序就是因為沒有共識所以我們這個部分現在就是一直在做這個努力希望把"},{"start":4284.319,"end":4306.012,"text":"努力7年了,不管你是在位幾年,不管你是在這個位置上幾年,努力幾年了。您也對台北市非常的關心,這個部分提出來,因為各地方政府或者也好,都會對他自己所獲得的財源來做努力跟爭取,這個部分我們都完全理解。我希望,我希望明天的公聽會,如果達到"},{"start":4306.992,"end":4324.139,"text":"最大的共識大多數的共識我覺得應該要提因為我相信我剛提出來現在25年沒修的財劃法是一個不公不仁又不義的版本還有第二我要再提首都保留的部分我還是要幫台北市提一下台北市我手上之都"},{"start":4324.619,"end":4342.104,"text":"不論是在城市的競爭力還有各項經費的支持還有台北市各項營建物料物價等等其實都高於其他的縣市所以我強烈要求在統籌分配的部分要加上首都保留所以這個部分是過去有我強調在這一次也必須要加進來部長我要問另外一個問題前幾天我看到新聞因為你是一個女性的部長"},{"start":4348.726,"end":4357.627,"text":"有關於在5月16號的這個關務署的偷拍的事件,針孔偷拍的事件,你們後面到底打算怎麼處理?"},{"start":4358.851,"end":4361.412,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4380.401,"end":4380.561,"text":"收支劃分法．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":4409.498,"end":4418.623,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《�"},{"start":4437.433,"end":4443.92,"text":"都應該通知地方主管機關,而且要懲戒。」我請問你懲戒的結果出來了嗎?出來了。什麼時候出來的?上個禮拜我們經過...那是因為媒體揭露之後你們才出來?好,你不用回答我。那是因為媒體揭露之後才出來?好,我們來看下一張。原來要把它調動的單位。部長。"},{"start":4458.803,"end":4479.68,"text":"我們來看下一張,那是上個禮拜審界出來,來給我下一張你們原來要給他調的單位是業務一科最後調任的單位還是在業務一科還是在一個辦公室裡後來是因為媒體揭露了之後你才把他從原來的逐微分官調到這個新單位的什麼業務一組"},{"start":4481.96,"end":4485.221,"text":"收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具"},{"start":4498.627,"end":4523.601,"text":"移送地檢署,你還是有一定的角色啊!新平三法主管機關,你內部要懲處,要調移動單位,而且新規法你要通知這個事情發生在哪裡?臺北市就要通知臺北市政府啊!勞工局要介入啊!不是只有移送給警察局,你就完全沒事情欸!我們機關內部行政懲處委還有新平審議委員會已經都開始啟動啦!"},{"start":4525.356,"end":4551.132,"text":"部長這件事情噢造成同仁對你你身為女性部長你處理的大家是非常失望所以我才會在你們同仁裡面內部一個網站上的論壇關注到新生論壇看到大家其實對於這件事情你處理身為女性吧大家是不滿的啦署長你應該知道我在說什麼啦部長可能沒有辦法掌握所有的狀況但是署長你應該知道我在說什麼我覺得"},{"start":4553.533,"end":4557.155,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4581.909,"end":4584.79,"text":"接著請李崑成、李委員質詢。謝謝主席。請莊部長。請莊部長。"},{"start":4600.14,"end":4601,"text":"財政部也提出了一個修法的方向"},{"start":4621.767,"end":4630.451,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法"},{"start":4641.656,"end":4642.276,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":4662.657,"end":4666.259,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續擬具"},{"start":4686.669,"end":4698.936,"text":"共識是非常重要,因為過去也曾經五度提出修法的版本,但是也因為沒有共識,所以沒有能夠完成整個修法的一個程序,這個部分我們其實大家都理解。來請部長看幾個數字,這個根據這個111年這個"},{"start":4705.399,"end":4729.11,"text":"中央給這個地方的這個統籌分配款的這個數額大概有4千億左右啦然後再加上如果是這個按照國民黨黨團的這個版本還要再釋出這個15%的稅收大概5千億左右合起來大概要9千億的規模啦那這樣子財政部這個對我們財政有沒有影響"},{"start":4730.899,"end":4731.56,"text":"財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4746.232,"end":4747.113,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：．．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":4774.013,"end":4778.637,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":4798.692,"end":4806.113,"text":"我們已經給了他們大概5000億左右啦那如果按照國民黨版本還要多增加5000億這樣子我們的中央受得了嗎?"},{"start":4808.101,"end":4836.617,"text":"收支劃分法 加上一般性的補助款在113年的規模來說已經達到6300多億了。那如果按照我指按照112年的補助的比例來看我們佔他們的稅出的比例已經快接近4成了等於是中央跟地方的稅收的比例已經是6比4嘛,差不多了嘛對不對?對,如果加上還有計劃型的補助款的話幾乎就是"},{"start":4837.497,"end":4860.369,"text":"6比4,就是6比4了嗎?我看國民黨現在又要求說中央跟地方的稅收比例要6比4,我看到112年度的這個決算大概已經是6比4的這個比例了啊。對,我們算過這個跟全國的淨稅率的一個淨額來比的話,我們對地方的相關的一些補助等等其實已經到了非常大的比例了。大概有6比4這個比例了嗎?"},{"start":4861.446,"end":4875.144,"text":"對,地方的收入,地方的收入占全國稅率的淨收,淨額的話達到6比4了。好,那這個我們民進黨執政以來齁,中央統籌分配款占地方的稅率的比例呢,從105年的23.54到112年的27.68"},{"start":4879.97,"end":4896.39,"text":"中央一般補助政地方稅率的比例從105年的28.01然後上升到112年的36.25其實說民進黨執政以來我們的這個稅不論是中央的統籌分配款還有一般性的補助比例都是增加的對不對"},{"start":4897.671,"end":4917.44,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法"},{"start":4921.443,"end":4938.296,"text":"財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":4940.878,"end":4969.3,"text":"這個地方政府仰賴中央給予這個統籌分配款也好或一般性補助款也好那是不是也造成了這個地方極度的仰賴中央地方他有這個權利他也可以去收這個地方的稅收啊但是這通過了這個地方稅法通責之後22年來10個縣市只收了169億這也是造成了另外一個地方造成這個依賴這個中央的一個情況啊"},{"start":4973.576,"end":5000.371,"text":"確實我們各地方政府各縣市它的人口面積還有自然條件跟公山發展條件的不同當然它的稅源會有不同但是因為所以《財化法》有一個調計營需很重要的一個目的然後均衡區域的發展那為什麼地方的相關的稅率佔的它的總稅率的比例越來越低因為事實上就是等於我們的中央統籌分配稅款跟補助款都加入那個分母也就是說"},{"start":5000.811,"end":5000.931,"text":"收支劃分法．．．．．．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":5025.905,"end":5045.692,"text":"不努力那大家那財政的努力應該給予激勵所以這個部分未來我們在分配公式上我們也希望能夠有這樣的一個指標進來好那看這個水平的這個分配的這個原則來講吼我我這邊吼有這個新北市政府吼建議中央統籌分配款的一個分配公式的指標啦當然財政努力有啦吼"},{"start":5046.252,"end":5056.331,"text":"收支劃分法 包括人口數、區域面積、公共運輸、圖書館、國民運動中心。這個是新北市他們希望的分配公式指標。對不對?"},{"start":5058.874,"end":5061.936,"text":"收支劃分法及財政收支劃分法及財政收支劃分法及財政收支劃分"},{"start":5080.828,"end":5099.682,"text":"收支劃分法 必須保留、必須給!那為什麼一定要給台北市3%保留的這個款項勒?還在吵架了嘛!為什麼台北市要3%?我新北市有5%!我人口最多!我地方最大!可不可以?"},{"start":5101.391,"end":5112.041,"text":"財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第13會期財政收支劃"},{"start":5126.514,"end":5129.195,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案案"},{"start":5151.278,"end":5165.905,"text":"當然他會如果你把中央統籌分配稅款這樣子的做而事權沒有做調整因為錢跟事權是一定是相對應的那事權要不要同樣做調整這個就是也要考慮的事情那你中央沒有財政韌性那將來面臨緊急的需要的時候要怎麼因應"},{"start":5169.867,"end":5171.488,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":5194.537,"end":5208.264,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":5214.287,"end":5217.189,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查〈立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答"},{"start":5248.96,"end":5255.005,"text":"主席有請總部長還有陳主席長請總部長還有陳主席長委員好部長好部長你剛剛提到因為過去經過5次的修法都沒有辦法修成那歷經了20幾年那看起來你要再一次的諮詢地方政府的財政單位那預計是這個會期會提還是下個會期會提"},{"start":5276.69,"end":5295.505,"text":"委員報告,這個部分我就講說沒有時間表,為什麼?因為目前的差距還很大,我們盡量縮小。可是已經瀕臨沉下了,那個部長已經瀕臨沉下了,在野黨如果按照那職權行使法的方式強行要碾壓的話,再這樣拖下去,你的統籌分配款就會沒有了,你知道嗎?你不擔心嗎?"},{"start":5299.304,"end":5299.884,"text":"收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5324.61,"end":5338.183,"text":"這如果是5777億的影響數是真的很大他對我們在中央總預算的籌編是有困難的因為我們目前初步大家114年大家報的一個大概是有3兆2000多億的一個蓋章難道那個籌編有困難難道要舉債嗎"},{"start":5341.246,"end":5355.23,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第9"},{"start":5372.054,"end":5373.117,"text":"地方制度法還有什麼法?"},{"start":5376.001,"end":5379.782,"text":"財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5405.908,"end":5422.778,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":5425.961,"end":5448.616,"text":"公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有一個債限對有一個債限這也跟地方的財政有所關聯嘛對不對所以舉凡跟地方財政相關的看不當當至少有這四個法要處理嘛你是不是要拿出四個法的配套方式才有可能來健全地方的財政而不是只有從財法法存資思考來取得更多的中央預算而已對不對"},{"start":5449.136,"end":5460.921,"text":"是,委員說的是,也就是說在垂直分配這一塊除了要求把稅款要撥出這麼多,但是要考慮事權。對,所以說部長、部長、主席長,我是說你不要陷入現在齁,國眾兩黨的這一個思維。"},{"start":5464.482,"end":5484.939,"text":"即是說我們如果真的要健全地方財政的話要從這樣的思維來做思考的話我們這四個法都要處理嘛 對不對如果四個法都要處理的話你就要提出我們的整個版本這才是真的為了地方的這個財政健全來做思考更何況他說比例失衡你要去思考最近的比例失衡的原因在哪裡啊最近國稅增加比較多還是地方稅增加比較多"},{"start":5486.063,"end":5486.703,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．"},{"start":5502.57,"end":5519.149,"text":"稅增加稅確實增加了很多。對,然後你看看這兩年的這個補助款來看,也高達八千多億喔,真正地方缺口大概是五百多億嘛,對不對?從預算估計的話大概五百五左右嘛。我跟你算過啦,老實說,在當年啦,1999年的時候,那時候經審之後的財法法通過的時候,"},{"start":5522.893,"end":5536.228,"text":"我們有一個比例上有凹到地方的部分就是原來我們營業稅的部分中央的部分大概是50%佔比大概50%經過之後營業稅的部分中央變佔60%"},{"start":5538.711,"end":5560.683,"text":"所以說大概我算過只要你這10%挪過去之後再多了500多億出來這地方就不至於負債了就不至於負債最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的一個負擔嘛不要造成地方上的負擔這是第一個要展現出來的誠意然後你看中央地方搶錢大作戰你看喔民眾黨大概多了300多億這個銀索稅這個多這個5%這根本是高雄安條款嘛"},{"start":5566.512,"end":5571.295,"text":"銀索稅條款、國民黨3%首都條款、蔣安安條款。剛剛李昆城擔心說新北市,新北市裡頭人口佔比的部分以國民黨的版本有佔67%之多。"},{"start":5583.661,"end":5585.301,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續擬具"},{"start":5610.029,"end":5629.864,"text":"版本以人口數為做一個很重的一個指標,確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。對啊,這人口數最多的就是新北嘛,台北嘛,台中嘛,對不對?所以說整個版本是後國民黨執政嘛,清民進黨執政嘛,受到那個,受到"},{"start":5631.025,"end":5657.999,"text":"難搞嘛 對不對分配商會變成這樣子嗎不是嗎那這樣子你剛剛提到說統籌分配款的部分是為了整個均衡發展嘛政策目標是這樣子嘛所以我是覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要去以正式聽的部分是說統籌分配如果是這個目標不是這樣子處理的橫向的分配來說過往我們的統籌分配就是太偏重於都會了以前過多偏重於都會整個"},{"start":5659.711,"end":5673.692,"text":"農村地區,像我所在的台南,偏種的部分,即便上農地只能農用,都市的土地都能夠建造房子,配置上去本來就不公平啊,部長"},{"start":5674.773,"end":5703.531,"text":"你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架,達到一個均衡的發展?沒錯,中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑營需,因為各地方政府的自然條件不同,工商條件也不同,所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑營需跟區域均衡發展,這是非常重要的。我跟你講,部長,我再提醒一下,我想依照那個國民黨也好,那個民眾黨也好,他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡?"},{"start":5704.249,"end":5715.123,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案案。但是呢,不具正當性的理由是財法法不能亂修。不能只有以執政縣市的自己執政縣市的這個觀點來做分配而已。對不對?"},{"start":5717.584,"end":5744.559,"text":"是沒有錯嗎?要去考慮這個整個的一個平衡性。整個平衡性嘛。對。如果是這樣平衡性的思考,你在思考架構這個思維的時候,你要有一定的說服力。地方或許有不同的意見,地方會有本位思考的考量,地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源,這都屬正常啊。當地方都屬正常的情況底下,最後還是部長你的版本你要拍板定案,從你的部的版本形成出來之後,你才有可能送到院嘛,對不對?"},{"start":5746.144,"end":5765.419,"text":"所以說你還是要抓一個時間點嘛你不能用一個沒有時間表做一個理由說法嘛你很難說服目前立法院有版本提出版本的相關的黨團嘛部長了解但是我們現在就努力在做努力這個部分把共識一定要把它凝聚出來那也沒時間表"},{"start":5766.844,"end":5788.113,"text":"那就要看大家共識什麼時候可以達成了因為沒有共識的情況下縱使推出版本也沒有辦法完全修法我是覺得你要推出版本的同時就如同我剛剛所講的你要適時的把部分的地方制度法的一個條文或者地方稅法通責的條文還有包括公債法的這個條文的部分重點條文的部分你要納入啦,可以不可以?"},{"start":5789.363,"end":5816.508,"text":"但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的一個權責對當然啦一部分我當然知道地方制度法是內政部的權利啊但是有很多大部分的法案都是你主政的嘛你主政的範圍你先思考嘛可以不可以是當然有關那個地方稅法通則我們也可以再來做檢視對啊像他這種法修過之後有一些馬祖地區整年的預算才44億光中央補助統籌分配款將來通過之後會就超過100億欸你想一下子稅收增加double他要怎麼執行"},{"start":5817.688,"end":5821.812,"text":"財政基率很重要所以你要把這些不合理性你要一一列舉出來嘛 對不對所以我現在本委員會當中部分黨派基本上都認為要修啦但是問題是怎麼修的問題啦怎麼修的根結點還是來自於這部的一個基本上的一個指標嘛好不好那最後我要問一下主計長齁主計長"},{"start":5842.432,"end":5842.792,"text":"稅務署的訓練中心"},{"start":5858.548,"end":5875.183,"text":"連這一個規劃費用的維修費用都拿不出錢來還要四成跟新北市要四成的跟文化部要他只能拿出兩成花了三年的時間修復費用還高達一億多一個文化資產超過120年的文化資產就放在旁邊"},{"start":5877.554,"end":5900.154,"text":"主委長,你上任之後能不能來解決這個問題啊?我能來協助解決。協助處理好不好?是。這國家資產、文化資產是屬於大家的啊。不能丟個部會當中去那邊傷腦筋啊。該花的錢要花。他不可能台北市政府跟你接管啊。一波接管。你沒有修好之前他不可能一波接管嘛。部長這件事情你也麻煩你放在心上好不好?莊部長。好的,是的。好,謝謝兩位,謝謝。謝謝委員。好,謝謝。"},{"start":5908.052,"end":5910.313,"text":"稍後請王宏威、王委員質詢。王宏威、王委員質詢。"},{"start":5929.206,"end":5937.773,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續"},{"start":5957.728,"end":5963.69,"text":"在5月15號在高雄市議會陳其邁市長在議會答詢的時候公開喊話韓國瑜院長要求韓國瑜院長要幫忙修正才劃法"},{"start":5973.573,"end":6000.052,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案,包括黃偉哲市長之前也看到,他也特別提到,他也認為財化法應該把柄做大。所以現在財化法要修正,絕對不是只有國民黨跟民眾黨提出而已,其實很多綠營執政的縣市的首長他們也非常希望能夠做修正,因為實在是太久沒有修正了。"},{"start":6000.692,"end":6004.636,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":6025.592,"end":6050.864,"text":"跟委員報告,財化法的修正其實我們已經開始在作業也就是我們已經出擬了修法的一個原則同時也請地方政府就於分配指標的部分提出意見所以並不是在拖那上次呢我們跟卓院長之間也都有對這些事情都會有討論那這部分的分配的公式我們必須要凝聚共識所以我要確定一下"},{"start":6053.925,"end":6055.908,"text":"稿員長已經有正式跟你提到要推動修正才劃法了嗎?我想這個是我們團隊裡面的一些內部的討論,是。所以看起來還沒有,因為有的話你就會說有了。"},{"start":6069.244,"end":6098.263,"text":"所以這就是拖呀?在這個議題已經連陳其邁、高雄市長都已經拜託韓院長也很奇怪他為什麼拜託韓院長他應該去拜託卓院長才對啊對不對?因為15號已經知道卓榮泰要當行政院院長了所以他很奇怪他應該去跟卓榮泰說所以剛才我看到很多委員都有在追問說那你們什麼時候拿出你們的版本啊但是你好像都沒有任何的回應"},{"start":6099.284,"end":6106.108,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":6122.577,"end":6144.967,"text":"因為每一次都是只要說你們沒有共識然後就不修正所以一拖拖25年了那我覺得在這一次其實已經勢在必行第一個時間實在是太長了而且現在其實要修正也是完全是突破藍綠白都有共識應該要做修正"},{"start":6145.707,"end":6170.441,"text":"剛才比如講說哇國民黨的版本怎麼樣怎麼樣是獨厚獨厚藍營執政縣市等等之類的但是重點是你們趕快提出版本啊提出版本大家才一可以一起來做併案討論那你們不提出版本而不能夠因為你遲遲不提出版本然後財劃法就原地不動好我們來看一下為什麼這個財劃法修正已經是這個見在懸賞勢在必行"},{"start":6174.043,"end":6181.205,"text":"支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":6201.929,"end":6202.73,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6218.84,"end":6230.529,"text":"收支劃分法 並不是由中央買單,而是要由地方來買單。所以也造成這幾年每到選舉之後,地方的財政支出,他們等於要重新編列預算。"},{"start":6233.854,"end":6234.094,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6252.6,"end":6279.772,"text":"審計部所提出的就是這幾年的地方,比如剛開始地方還會特別的一直來配合來編這個自籌款可是呢隨著這個時間的這樣子一年一年的過去而地方能夠自籌的能力事實上是一直下降的所以他們的自籌率可能從原來的八成然後一步一步的下降大概在前年只有六成左右"},{"start":6280.552,"end":6282.334,"text":"好,我這個要特別提出來的,剛才在說呀,就是我們這個財劃法是在獨厚藍營的執政縣市,不是的,絕對不是的因為大家都知道,其實我們現在整個的財政結構是中央集錢又集權"},{"start":6301.449,"end":6305.61,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政"},{"start":6325.054,"end":6353.871,"text":"竟然高達14個縣市他的自籌財源比例是低於三成以下。」部長,你應該知道我在講什麼。如果一個縣市他的自籌財源占他的稅出到三成以下的時候,這代表什麼?這代表他只有養中央的鼻息嘛。他要靠著中央給他補助。"},{"start":6354.787,"end":6357.791,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查"},{"start":6373.109,"end":6394.029,"text":"是不是委員所以這就是為什麼自籌中央一直都不願意真正的來修正才劃法不是自籌財源是屬於他自己的不包含統籌分配稅款所以統籌分配稅款加進去以後他就成為他的自有財源因為統籌分配稅款是同地方的稅客收入就好所以"},{"start":6394.75,"end":6396.232,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答"},{"start":6412.908,"end":6437.848,"text":"這就是補助款就是掌握在中央的手上而這個補助款就可以隨著中央甚至各部會甚至看藍綠來辦事別說我們以112年112年中央挹注在地方的財源按統籌稅款再加上補助收入那我們統籌稅款哪一個縣市是最高啊"},{"start":6442.093,"end":6443.654,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6460.236,"end":6489.699,"text":"高雄市 高雄市就如同前瞻過去審計部也特別提出整個的前瞻在補助裏面高雄市拔得頭籌第一名啊我們台北市呢其實比高雄市大概只有高雄市的十分之一啊高雄超過一千億然後台北市呢就一百多億可以看看委員加上一般性補助款台北市依然是最高的"},{"start":6490.239,"end":6493.68,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":6512.828,"end":6537.239,"text":"希望把籌款能夠他這個大餅整個做大而不要處處的去養中央比席比如說剛才特別提到馬祖哇說馬祖這次可能他會增加很多如果你今天看我剛才講說同樣的我們自籌財源比例其實真的啦我們真的說不是只有芬蘭綠比如說在嘉義縣、屏東縣都是綠營執政的縣市對不對"},{"start":6540.8,"end":6541.12,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續"},{"start":6561.388,"end":6564.21,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具:「財政"},{"start":6586.725,"end":6588.107,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6603.067,"end":6605.769,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案。"},{"start":6619.719,"end":6622.58,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具"},{"start":6636.924,"end":6655.202,"text":"收支劃分法 還有民眾黨執政的新主事我們拿來一起談而且大家也願意讓利因為大家知道最重要的目標是要讓中央能夠把錢、把這個大餅給地方比較多一點否則自己本身吵來吵去正中下懷"},{"start":6656.391,"end":6661.655,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":6680.247,"end":6688.196,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6700.68,"end":6719.176,"text":"我們在16個縣市彼此也會要爭啊我多一點你多一點可是大家覺得說我們願意讓利願意讓利但是重點是把大餅做大如果大家有這樣的共識你其實推出來並不難啦好不要再用各種理由去推脫不會推脫謝謝委員好謝謝現在請吳立華吳委員"},{"start":6736.405,"end":6745.052,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":6765.948,"end":6792.022,"text":"提升財政自主、劃一分配基礎、調記財政營儲、保障既有財源、精進分配機制。」那這個當中是提到我們的原則就是希望不要讓富者更富,那不要讓窮者更窮,很好。那我是想要請教說,這個五原則是不是跟地方政府一起討論出來的?"},{"start":6794.889,"end":6797.409,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查"},{"start":6822.694,"end":6824.014,"text":"財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6844.52,"end":6847.181,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":6865.925,"end":6883.761,"text":"以及強化財政紀律。」我想這個部分都要考慮到的我們幾個原則先提出來。所以部長這些原則很好,但是我聽起來就是財政部自己的一個規劃跟想法。那我比較想知道有沒有去蒐證地方政府的意見?"},{"start":6885.449,"end":6885.77,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":6904.365,"end":6905.707,"text":"財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6924.485,"end":6943.428,"text":"那我們原住民鄉在這個六都當中整併的過程當中他曾經一度失去了公法人的地位在2014年修法之後呢恢復公法人地位但是問題很多那我在這裡呢想要請教一下"},{"start":6944.429,"end":6972.244,"text":"我們以桃園區公所他是高雄市六都園區或一般的縣市來相比其實他在合併的時候他的稅客收入瞬間轉零取消那我在3月的時候我也曾經質詢過想要請教一下園民會紅副處長這個問題園民會有沒有掌握看法是什麼"},{"start":6974.253,"end":6976.416,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":6990.911,"end":6992.811,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續"},{"start":7019.438,"end":7030.915,"text":"其實呢在2014年我們在修帝制法83條之二第一項的時候我們有寫到準用本法關於鄉鎮市之規定"},{"start":7033.865,"end":7039.328,"text":"稅捐公共債不見了。」可是呢,我們去查當時黨團協商的時候財政部有承諾原住民區的財政自治有承諾。好,那我們來細看一下"},{"start":7063.755,"end":7074.722,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政"},{"start":7094.235,"end":7104.84,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等23人分別擬具:「財政"},{"start":7122.827,"end":7135.241,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案． 結果呢我們如果不修法這樣的情形就會一直維持所以呢我也提出了版本提出了修法的內容那很簡單就是把漏掉的補進去把直轄式的山地園區納進來就可以了這是我的修法版本"},{"start":7143.851,"end":7162.362,"text":"收支劃分法。可是我在3月7號的時候財政部的業務報告詢答我要求說要跟直轄市原民區公所單獨開會聽取他們的意見並納入修法那我想要問部長目前辦理的情形如何"},{"start":7164.725,"end":7179.991,"text":"委員報告我們在進一步的釐清這因為就是如同剛剛委員所說的對於直轄市的原民區的一個部分因為在地制法裡面的規定原民區裡面的財政自治事項只包含了所謂的"},{"start":7182.173,"end":7191.964,"text":"財產的經營處分以及稅率的部分,但並不包含稅捐及公債,所以他的財政自治事項裡面不包含這個。至於來化法裡面,他的財政層級就沒有辦法把他放進去。"},{"start":7195.988,"end":7223.075,"text":"第一個我看到你們3月14號有發文發給有園區的四個直轄市新北市政府桃園、台中、高雄但是這個跟我的本意跟問題不同我是指直轄市的山地原住民區公所我希望能夠找他們單獨開會來聽取他們的意見所以部長這個部分我們可以怎麼樣彌補嗎"},{"start":7226.364,"end":7228.366,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具"},{"start":7243.311,"end":7258.588,"text":"招集人、召委有邀各縣市政府來嗎?可以一起邀嗎?直轄市的園區、園住民、區公所那您是提到說會跟內政部一起邀嗎?"},{"start":7261.174,"end":7276.512,"text":"對。我要提的就是說我也有看到專報裡面你們有說武力華委員等17人提案你說以由內政部審慎評估尋修正地質法來推動那我要跟您說對"},{"start":7277.873,"end":7300.148,"text":"我也同步提案修正了。這個是我的地制法第83條之3,我也有做修法版本了,那目前也已經送出去了,就是把原來漏掉的升格之前應分配的稅捐跟公共再放進去了。所以我想這個部分就麻煩部長,因為這個問題"},{"start":7303.03,"end":7305.811,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．第3會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7327.619,"end":7328.76,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查〈一、繼續審查〉"},{"start":7352.197,"end":7354.999,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7370.089,"end":7386.655,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7398.379,"end":7413.586,"text":"稻地、我們這些地方財政的統籌稅跟特別預算的補助款我很想要這10年來的資料讓我可以準備後續的審查那這個資料可以拿到我辦公室嗎?是,我們會送給委員"},{"start":7415.447,"end":7416.888,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續財政"},{"start":7440.711,"end":7441.452,"text":"收支劃分法．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":7466.192,"end":7467.973,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案案。"},{"start":7482.602,"end":7505.397,"text":"這個已經送到院會準備要三讀通過那當時也跟部長拜託我們一定要來協助怎麼樣免稅那我相信內政部這邊一定要請教財政部的意見那現在這個版本出去是里長可以免稅那我代表全台灣的里長謝謝部長這邊提議那今天要討論的部分也要跟部長請議的部分五月才剛報完稅那過去我們都知道111年"},{"start":7506.778,"end":7511.165,"text":"稅收超徵4000億、112年稅收超徵3671億。請問今年剛報完稅5月份,這個部長有沒有認為今年會大概超收稅收多少錢?"},{"start":7521.147,"end":7526.11,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":7546.361,"end":7546.721,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7557.225,"end":7574.792,"text":"對,在112年我們執行全民共享那我相信很多委員也有提到那去年超出了3600億會發6000塊給民眾嗎?去年超出預算數3600億是含中央跟地方其實中央大概超出預算數大概是2000多億2900億所以有考慮發普發現金嗎?"},{"start":7578.753,"end":7580.114,"text":"財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7597.009,"end":7601.593,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第三屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7616.383,"end":7640.789,"text":"超徵稅收顧民司也要把稅收還給全民所以就是我們所說的這個統籌分配款人數我認為是一個很重要的一個概念請教部長我們為什麼要討論這個新北市有400萬的人口請問一下現在全台灣22個縣市哪一個縣市人均統籌分配還分配給中央分給地方人均是最低的六都裡面哪一個縣市最低"},{"start":7641.553,"end":7655.569,"text":"先跟委員報告稅收沒有所謂超徵因為每一塊錢都是按照法律收是我們的實徵數超過了預算數對,我剛剛跟部長的概念就是說我們把它累積到財政的韌性裡面其實也是為全民在做財務的一個韌性"},{"start":7658.172,"end":7659.973,"text":"支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7673.235,"end":7688.544,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政"},{"start":7698.13,"end":7714.399,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具:「財"},{"start":7725.447,"end":7737.236,"text":"相符。」而且你們在報告裡面也寫說在國民黨的提案裡面你也說分配公室以人口指標為主,亦導致人口數較多的縣市獲配顯著優於其他同縣市"},{"start":7738.581,"end":7740.582,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具"},{"start":7757.284,"end":7770.72,"text":"人口數本來就是一個統籌分配稅款裡面指標之一但是我們知道有的版本裡面把人口數的全數拉得很高的話會讓人口多的地方會增加的數額會比較高"},{"start":7771.929,"end":7787.703,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":7793.447,"end":7818.959,"text":"所以我要報告部長就是說現在剛剛跟部長報告新北市已經是六都最低而且是全台灣22縣市最低這個財劃法已經25年沒有修所以這個問題已經累積了20幾年了新北市整體的建設真的是有被拖緩那我再跟部長請教因為剛剛我有聽部長其實你們非常認真已經在研議了現在不管是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本針對營業稅的部分"},{"start":7820.64,"end":7824.441,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":7838.294,"end":7853.823,"text":"分法原則裡有一個提升財政自主,這個部分會增加統籌分配稅款的規模。自己怎麼樣的去從哪一個稅務上面去做比例性的調整,這個是要等到我們的分配公式計算出來後,看需要的一個額度是多少再來做調整。"},{"start":7854.543,"end":7862.307,"text":"稍微得知有透露出來就是要把營業稅來做一個修正的一個動作要還稅於民所以希望說部長這部分繼續一起努力趕快把版本做出來我相信這個才是全民之福而且幫新北市民來謀福利以上謝謝"},{"start":7884.136,"end":7889.299,"text":"好謝謝委員是的謝謝我們結束張志榮委員接下來請羅明才召委主席各位委員處理了習慣運動好主席有請莊部長主席長部長你好委員好"},{"start":7909.309,"end":7911.31,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7930.1,"end":7932.801,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具"},{"start":7950.39,"end":7975.845,"text":"我們是夥伴關係都很多都要攜手一起努力的是既然是夥伴關係我們就是成為你好我好大家一起好的好夥伴是的今天很高興有22縣市財政相關的都來了財政局都來了那是不是請問一下要尊重他們的意見如果說不缺錢的不缺錢的請舉手"},{"start":7979.733,"end":7998.988,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查第2會期"},{"start":8009.863,"end":8023.43,"text":"當你問他們說大家現在目前的財務狀況是缺的這是缺的好請問裡面覺得覺得已經快窒息了快受不了了最缺的請舉手最缺的啦趕快啊你們舉手就找部長要錢啊好喔很勇敢你要說出欸那個是哪一個地方"},{"start":8039.571,"end":8065.066,"text":"金門所以我們可以感受到缺的是金門那有沒有不缺的不缺的請舉手好另外剛還有一個覺得比較缺的是哪一個地方我們在考量的時候要給予尊重因為是夥伴關係部長要多照顧他照顧金門還有哪裡比較缺的請舉手不要放棄不要客氣"},{"start":8066.516,"end":8078.244,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政"},{"start":8092.276,"end":8107.104,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》15案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》"},{"start":8117.957,"end":8130.284,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委"},{"start":8137.077,"end":8161.991,"text":"臺北市政府臺北市政府來缺多少金額啊是因為現在建設都很多啦尤其包括現在的基層銷售改進還有直接講了齁你希望一年可以多補助你多少一年啊一年這個金額恐怕還是要大概一百億五十億都隨便你講沒關係如果可以的話因為建設也就是很需求也很急的話大概可以的話一年多個兩百億的話一年多兩百億謝謝臺北市下一個"},{"start":8166.075,"end":8187.926,"text":"委員好,我是桃園市政府代表。是。那桃園是最晚升格的直轄市,那因為它的統籌加一般性補助款都是六都最低的。是。那一般性補助款呢,排名甚至排名到第17、第18名。所以統籌的部分你希望一年可以增加多少?嗯,統籌的部分因為我們相較台北市陸陣有大概"},{"start":8188.996,"end":8213.432,"text":"相較剛剛臺北市的代表發言,其實我們統籌這幾年升格以後大概少了上千億,那其實我們沒有要要求那麼多,我們至少希望達成跟六都的平均數一樣就好了。平均數大概多少?直接講沒關係啦,直接講。是,大概差了大概五百多億。五百多億,好,謝謝陶淵五百億。欸那個"},{"start":8216.395,"end":8243.471,"text":"幫我記一下來,第三個反正你們都講然後缺多少我們來想辦法是一千億、兩千億這樣才有辦法來進行嘛不然每次大家天馬行空講不完的那沒有上來的謝謝你們就不要來,下一個委員大家好那我是代表新竹縣新竹來,差多少那目前我們各項經驗需求大概至少都還有缺口大概上百億所以至少希望有一百億以上一百億謝謝,下一位"},{"start":8246.892,"end":8253.693,"text":"委員好,我是南投縣政府的代表,因為這幾年就是南投縣的建設也是很多,對,沒錯,所以對我們的其實各項的那個收入其實都影響很大,這邊的話希望增加多少?至少就是要有50億以上。幾億?50億。好,50億謝謝,南投50億,下一個。"},{"start":8271.343,"end":8288.532,"text":"委員好,我這邊是新北市政府代表,那我們新北市真的是人口最多,那因為很多各項建設都要支出,所以我們真的缺口是缺很多錢啦,然後每年的那個預算差短也都是差了一百多億,那我們真的缺口我們是少了真的是五六百億啦。五六百億,那就六百億好了,好不好?"},{"start":8290.806,"end":8308.558,"text":"公務長請你聽一聽他們的心聲因為新北是差最多的以前縣的時候就覺得縣是慘兮兮、嗷嗷待哺升格成為直轄市了以後真的比起來差太多了我們沒有"},{"start":8309.693,"end":8313.374,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":8332.619,"end":8334.58,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":8357.082,"end":8373.217,"text":"委員好,我是花蓮縣政府的代表。對,花蓮是災區,然後它是全國面積最大的。所以我們基層、基礎工程和道路橋樑還有排水工程,我們是非常非常…沒關係,那這個需要缺多少?對,我們至少100億。100億,花蓮100億,謝謝。下一位。"},{"start":8378.55,"end":8399.802,"text":"委員好,我是金門縣的代表。金門,對,缺多少?那,金門縣因為它現在連金門大橋還有自來水,像這些在台灣縣市都是屬於中央負擔的,可是在金門都要由金門負擔。是。那我們希望說每年可以增加20億。20億而已?小事情齁?好,我們要聽進去了。下一個。"},{"start":8401.442,"end":8415.44,"text":"稍微好,我是台中市代表因為台中市的目前來講是重大工程齊聚的在最近幾年會有一個大幅度的一個需求所以我們台中市的部分收支差短的部分大概是差應該要有300億"},{"start":8419.646,"end":8443.502,"text":"幾億?300億。謝謝。那也不多啦。因為你知道我們前幾年的稅收超徵4500億啊。我是要幫各地方找錢啊。再沒有錢再來找我。我還有很多地方可以幫部長找錢的。下一個。委員好。我是雲林縣代表。我們雲林縣在每年的在雲林縣內的徵取的稅收有700多億。可是我們雲林縣"},{"start":8445.1,"end":8471.722,"text":"再加上中央給我們的一般性補助款、特別的補助款統統被稅款加了、統統加進來以後也只能預算只能到400億而已。是。所以差多少?所以這個收支的落差我們是多貢獻了300多億在那。可是我們雲林縣有一些特別的犧牲比如說我們的六親的重大的那個工業的污染的承受"},{"start":8472.022,"end":8501.103,"text":"所以大概均衡一下,你們覺得你差多少?一年?最少一百億。一百億,謝謝。下一位。委員好,我是新竹市政府的代表。那新竹市是因為是科學園區的所在地,那我們創造了高額的稅收,但是營利事業所的稅跟綜合所的稅都是國稅,我們都上繳中央了。沒錯。但是我們新竹市配回的統籌分配稅跟一般性補助款的配回率是全國最低的。"},{"start":8501.383,"end":8502.604,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":8516.541,"end":8540.979,"text":"委員你好,這裡是苗栗縣代表那因為我們苗栗縣的部分呢在那個營酒稅的這一塊呢就是算是上繳的這個稅收是比較多的但是回饋給我們苗栗的話相對於就是其他縣市比起來是差異非常大那我們也希望說可以在這個部分可以再多增加給我們差不多一百億一百億謝謝苗栗下一個"},{"start":8543.254,"end":8561.066,"text":"委員好,這邊是嘉義市的代表。那我們這邊的話,因為像我們嘉義市在做鐵路高架化,目前因為工程款也是大額的增加,自籌需要增加很多,然後加上基本建設,我們也在蓋一個永續綠能循環中心等等的一些需要,所以大概缺口是100億左右。"},{"start":8563.467,"end":8587.873,"text":"因為黃市長特別關心啊因為這個都不分藍綠地方就是民眾需要做的中央就大力支持嘛所以你們這個部分我也會大力來請委員大家支持謝謝你下一位委員好我是基隆市代表基隆市我們現在就是捷運也還正在就是有需要大筆的經費所以我們希望大概有90到100"},{"start":8589.278,"end":8601.021,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》15案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》16案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》"},{"start":8620.663,"end":8627.069,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政"},{"start":8648.922,"end":8667.031,"text":"大概5億左右幾億部長馬上給他了啦5億然後一直每次都說溝通有困難你說你是哪一個地方連江馬祖連江馬祖5億好啦馬上給啦好謝謝請回那那個秘書長總共接下來多少你算一下所以部長我要告訴你的"},{"start":8679.329,"end":8705.418,"text":"我們每天講天說地加一加大概沒有超過兩千億啦然後一副苦哈哈講東講西各位敬愛的全國民眾全山少花一點就有錢了各位民眾大家想想看這不過一兩千億的事情就解決了為什麼做脫了25年"},{"start":8707.691,"end":8735.985,"text":"不是本席說要做不做是小英總統說要做蘇貞昌老縣長說要做賴清德總統以前說過通通要做我們為什麼不放下政黨之見站在民眾思考的立場就幫他們一下吧前瞻8800億在這邊沒有幾分就通過了加起來多少2600億吧"},{"start":8738.035,"end":8740.997,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具"},{"start":8754.302,"end":8772.946,"text":"請他們在所有立委面前看到底缺什麼缺多少金額我們一起來幫他嘛就如同你剛剛講的中央地方什麼關係是夥伴關係嘛有什麼不能講有什麼不能說的拜託部長要面對這個問題了最後主計長去年稅收啊又超徵3000億左右拜託啊苦民所苦啊"},{"start":8780.409,"end":8787.924,"text":"現在經濟通膨物價飆漲得很厲害拜託今年每個人普發現金一萬塊好不好"},{"start":8790.782,"end":8792.704,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查"},{"start":8813.039,"end":8825.177,"text":"對,他現在目前事業上的電價之後還是不夠所以我們還是要補助一千億所以追加一千億就所以我們整個累計的剩餘目前才剩下六百多億謝謝以上一個人普派現金一萬塊缺的錢我來告訴部長謝謝"},{"start":8829.039,"end":8844.982,"text":"好,謝謝我們找羅明才委員的質詢。剛才總共有17個縣市,總共缺口是2575億。這個可以好好思考地方缺口的狀況。好,謝謝。我們接下來請曾振淺委員。謝謝主席,然後請一下莊部長。"},{"start":8863.362,"end":8879.892,"text":"委員好部長好剛剛聽到我們羅明才召委其實他把17個縣市的缺口提出來問的時候其實我覺得很具體那我這邊大概也要再針對新竹市這個部分再多做一些補充的一個發言跟爭取"},{"start":8880.632,"end":8884.374,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「"},{"start":8906.727,"end":8933.685,"text":"整個新竹這邊新竹市這邊他每一年創稅1800億當時市長提出來的數字是這樣子他覺得得到的統籌分款非常的少所以他認為整個財化法分配不公所以他希望主張從第四法這邊的時候去做合併那最主要合併升格的理由就是因為錢分配不均財化法分配不均這個部分部長應該還有記憶猶新嘛對不對"},{"start":8936.664,"end":8937.765,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案。"},{"start":8952.202,"end":8953.002,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案。"},{"start":8969.864,"end":8972.805,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":8987.572,"end":9015.537,"text":"限制的平衡、中央地方的平衡還有各縣市當中的平衡是很重要的一個部分是很重要的一個部分那我在想說針對這個部分的時候我要特別提到以新竹市來講的時候剛剛就是新竹市的代表他很客氣地講說他只要再多100億剛剛在我們羅明才招委問的時候新竹市、新竹縣、苗栗都提100億其實坦白說非常的保守我們剛剛"},{"start":9016.497,"end":9017.318,"text":"公共交通運輸6.1%公共交通運輸6.1%"},{"start":9038.78,"end":9046.316,"text":"系統進來。」我給部長看一下我們大新竹建設大新竹輕軌這是中央的一個計畫"},{"start":9049.059,"end":9072.26,"text":"基本上我們看光看錢的部分就好因為今天財政委員這邊在提新竹市這邊他要自己負擔就要197.6億總預算354.82億那麼工程款包括自償非自償的部分還有用地費整個加起來就要197.6億坦白說新竹市根本負擔不起"},{"start":9073.399,"end":9099.338,"text":"所以你會發現有很多的計劃跟建設中央在推地方的配額款永遠跟不上以新竹市坦白說整個財務結構都算是比較優等的一個縣市的時候都還沒有辦法分配的時候那其他的縣市就更慘那在這個情況之下的時候我再舉一個我們在5月底的新竹市發生大火"},{"start":9100.179,"end":9101.14,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":9117.708,"end":9138.734,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":9145.714,"end":9160.259,"text":"那針對新竹市這個部分我給部長稍微講一下這是112年度的一個數字全國的所得稅一兆8346億新竹市貢獻了3067億佔16.7%可是新竹市112年的統籌分配稅款在全國4227億當中只分配到63.5億只佔了1.5%部長你覺得這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":9178.507,"end":9202.206,"text":"在新竹市裡面其實我們的分配公式裡面都還有一個營利事業的營業額這個部分其實新竹市在這個部分它佔比是比較大的其實相對它也能夠貨配比較多當然今天以這個數據來看各地方政府都會說我為什麼都分配那麼少這個也就是說我們在水平分配的時候必須要提出一個非常好的一個分配公式"},{"start":9202.586,"end":9213.799,"text":"收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具、「財"},{"start":9220.086,"end":9221.187,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．．．．．"},{"start":9236.516,"end":9237.396,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":9251.761,"end":9255.645,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答："},{"start":9275.224,"end":9286.593,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政"},{"start":9293.018,"end":9311.326,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法有部分的比例能夠留在地方那本席這邊會提一個修正動議我提出是25%那至於能夠有多少%我覺得我們大家可以討論可是因為以目前我們看起來就新竹市在整個中央"},{"start":9311.986,"end":9339.145,"text":"所得稅的貢獻度跟統籌分法真的是不成比例我們希望能夠有適當的一個所得稅的比例能夠留在地方然後能夠讓整個地方直接享受到整個努力的一個成果那當然水平分配垂直分配我們都得兼顧但新竹市這個部分我必須要特別幫新竹市發聲剛剛新竹市代表提到說一百億坦白說其實是很"},{"start":9339.665,"end":9359.434,"text":"保守很客氣的一個說法因為事實上我們現在對整個大新竹輕軌的部分完全沒有錢去推這個部分然後縣市當中新竹縣也提100億新竹縣市當中還有好幾座橋要去做連結都沒有辦法現在光是竹北到科學園區短短可能一點多公里的路"},{"start":9360.134,"end":9388.561,"text":"收支劃分法 可能在上班時間會拖到30分鐘。這個就是因為整個地方資源不足,沒有辦法讓整個基礎建設做更好的一個發展。所以在這邊提出以上的主張,以上。謝謝委員,謝謝。我跟委員也報告一下,所得稅就在地方直接分成的話,那您知道台北市的所得稅佔了全國所得稅的4成,那另外有些地方政府,有10個地方政府,國稅跟地稅通通給他,"},{"start":9389.141,"end":9396.705,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":9416.115,"end":9427.163,"text":"特別針對新竹市所處的一個狀態,能夠特別加以做一個調整。以上。謝謝,因為委員為新竹爭取權益,我們理解。是,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝部長,謝謝。接著請徐欣穎徐欣穎徐仁不在。請紐許廷、紐委員。"},{"start":9452.665,"end":9455.986,"text":"收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":9472.27,"end":9475.711,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具:「財政"},{"start":9497.591,"end":9498.872,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法"},{"start":9522.284,"end":9544.72,"text":"每一屆每一屆地方政府其實都希望財政收支劃分法趕快來做修正因為基本上中央集權又集錢讓地方的財政負擔沉重衍生很多很多的問題喔那我就想問部長這麼長的時間20幾年大家都在大聲疾呼的時候請問為什麼到現在我們都還看不到民進黨政府執政的院板請部長回答"},{"start":9546.839,"end":9564.403,"text":"謝謝委員,委員剛剛提出來國外的一個分層那也跟委員報告這涉及到有關的一個事權的一個分配也就是中央比如他們以聯邦跟邦之間那就事權要怎麼分配因為垂直的分配裡面必須事權跟錢必須要相對應這是一個那第二個剛剛委員提到就是說為什麼這麼長的時間為什麼財劃法沒有能夠修正那也就跟第一個就是沒有共識"},{"start":9571.765,"end":9598.433,"text":"曾經也五度提出過修法的版本但是因為在水平分配的部分各地方政府對於希望能夠為他自己的縣區爭取更大的一個裁員所以沒有辦法達成共識所以版本提出來沒有共識情況下依然是沒有辦法完成修法所以目前來說我們也就是在凝聚這個共識我們希望把共識凝聚起來以後提出來的版本那才能夠完成修法的程序"},{"start":9599.193,"end":9617.87,"text":"是在每一年每一年啊這個我們的中央政府都大聲疾呼說我們要凝聚共識凝聚共識講一大堆可是事實上就是從112年最新的資料顯示喔這個國庫的稅收3兆分配到地方只剩下28%103年的時候這個數字是35%你每一年沒有共識沒有共識結論就是從35%萎縮到28%這個狀況跟問題越來越嚴重來下一張"},{"start":9627.661,"end":9649.53,"text":"這個曾經民進黨政府執政的財政部長蘇建榮也曾經表示,草案法要修正有四大原則要兼顧,第一規模要擴大,第二直轄市跟縣市標準一致,第三考量區域平衡,第四考量地方政府的財政努力程度給予補助,所以你不是沒有指導綱領嗎?你其實該有的原則其實早就都有了,那你說要百分之百的共識,恐怕"},{"start":9650.826,"end":9668.127,"text":"問題也很大也很難達到但沒關係嘛現在國民黨黨團已經有提版本國民黨黨團加上在野執政縣市總共16個縣市這16個縣市有直轄市有縣市有偏鄉有離島也有都會其實我認為已經具備了充分的代表性"},{"start":9668.747,"end":9691.221,"text":"按照我們黨團版本的草案去做設算跟規劃的時候其實民進黨政府執政的地方縣市台南、高雄其實他貨配的數量也有提升所以我覺得這樣子的一個草案其實已經很接近所謂的地方共識了我希望財政部如果你真的提不出來我覺得也不要耽誤法案的審查該審就審了啦財政部部長你有什麼想法嗎?你看過現在的草案了沒有?"},{"start":9691.971,"end":9692.591,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查"},{"start":9722.331,"end":9742.663,"text":"我覺得你這樣來要去,那結論到底你什麼時候才算得出一個結果來?您是指說計算是嗎?對啊,你剛剛講說我們應該這幾天就可以把它算出來,就是各個版本分配下來會是怎麼樣一個情況,我們可以試算出來,但是因為有些指標並不明確,但是我們就設法以假設的方式來算。好,反正沒關係,這個法案現在開始進入實質的審查啦。"},{"start":9743.604,"end":9744.645,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":9768.698,"end":9787.567,"text":"政府換了位置就換了腦袋因為我提醒一下部長我們現在的總統剛上任的這個賴清德總統在2017年他做行政院長的時候他其實就說要均衡地方發展的三個方向第一個叫行政區重劃第二叫修正財劃法第三叫地方創生"},{"start":9788.487,"end":9799.554,"text":"他到院長卸任的時候都沒有結果那他現在當總統了總該有結果啦他如果沒有辦法有結果我們就幫他有結果那我希望部長就積極的來配合我們不要耽擱法案的審議可以嗎?"},{"start":9801.032,"end":9801.493,"text":"財政財政財政財政"},{"start":9827.478,"end":9845.968,"text":"接著請吐泉吉、吐泉吉、吐泉吉、吐委員不在請邱洛華、邱洛華、邱洛華、邱委員不在請萬美玲、萬美玲、萬美玲、萬委員不在請羅廷偉、羅廷偉、羅廷偉、羅廷偉、羅委員不在好那牛委員等一下"},{"start":9857.312,"end":9874.701,"text":"收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具、「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具、「財政"},{"start":9888.337,"end":9891.781,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查"},{"start":9920.151,"end":9943.85,"text":"一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊。請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆。違令要求期限者從其所定。三、委員萬美玲、邱振軍、羅廷偉、廖先祥所提書面質詢。委員牛"},{"start":9946.525,"end":9966.714,"text":"許庭所提書面補充資料均列入記錄、刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆。四、本日會議若不在場委員補題書面質詢,一併列入記錄、刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理。"},{"start":9971.92,"end":9986.807,"text":"發針對討論事項今日將先宣讀條文及修正動議。台灣民眾黨黨團擬具財政收支劃分法修正草案等17案尚未審查完均,將則其繼續審查。"},{"start":9991.198,"end":10018.261,"text":"現在請議事委員宣讀台灣民眾黨黨團擬具財政收支劃分法修正草案等17案請宣讀宣讀財政收支劃分法修正草案等17案條文補充一下我們宣讀完畢以後再休息請宣讀"},{"start":10020.25,"end":10044.628,"text":"第一章總綱未修正第一條未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條中華民國各級政府財政收支劃分及條據依本法之規定委員許宇甄等16人提案第二條委員洪孟楷等22人提案第二條及委員羅明才等23人提案第二條第一項均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條"},{"start":10047.967,"end":10076.515,"text":"委員羅明才等23人提案第二條徵定第二項各級政府財政收支之條據在中央與地方政府間應考量基本財政需求及資源運用效能上級政府對於下級政府之財政資源應以均衡區域發展為原則委員吳立華等17人提案第三條第四款修正為鄉鎮縣轄市及直轄市三地原住民區"},{"start":10077.847,"end":10098.325,"text":"以下簡稱鄉鎮市區區域均同現行碼條文委員許宇甄等16人提案第4條國民黨黨團提案第4條委員丁學中等17人提案第4條委員洪孟楷等22人提案第4條委員羅明才等23人提案第4條均予以刪除"},{"start":10105.236,"end":10118.568,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第4條及委員許宇甄等16人提案第4條之一均同委員羅明才等23人提案第二條第二項、委員洪孟楷等22人提案第4條之一"},{"start":10119.622,"end":10146.199,"text":"各級政府財政收支條紀在中央與地方政府間應依下列原則進行財政需求及資源運用效能之設算一、地方政府人口結構變遷趨勢二、地方經濟活動與發展差異性三、城鄉治理複雜性四、環境生態永續性五、財政自主能力上級政府對下級政府之財政資源應以均衡區域發展為原則"},{"start":10152.83,"end":10174.549,"text":"第五條未修正第二章收入未修正第一節稅客收入未修正第六條未修正第七條未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條除第一項第五款貨物稅及第九款礦區稅均刪除第六、七、八款款次依次修正"},{"start":10175.56,"end":10202.191,"text":"第二項修正為前項第一款之所得稅之綜合所得稅收入10%應由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市其盈利事業所得稅收入5%應以在直轄市及縣市增給部分給該直轄市及縣市但以不超過該直轄市及縣市自籌財源之10%為限其超過部分由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市"},{"start":10203.646,"end":10221.655,"text":"第三項修正為第一項第二款之遺產及贈與稅應以在直轄市、市及鄉鎮市徵起之收入80%給該直轄市、市及鄉鎮市。第四項修正為第一項第四款之營業稅總收入減除1.5%"},{"start":10223.456,"end":10244.784,"text":"作為積增經費及依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之全部收入依由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市但超過法定最低稅率所增收入其用途除法律另有規定者從其規定外依由行政院定定條高徵收稅之用途並據以劃分歸屬。第二項"},{"start":10247.921,"end":10261.97,"text":"收支劃分法修正為第一項第六款之菸酒稅,在直轄市及台灣省各縣市增企收入減除百分之一,作為積增及查緝經費後製百分之十九,因按人口比例分配直轄市及台灣省各縣市。"},{"start":10264.031,"end":10278.804,"text":"在福建省金門及聯鄉二線徵期收入1%作為積增及查緝經費後支80%分配各該縣,區域收入由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市外,區域均同縣洗法條文。"},{"start":10282.014,"end":10307.768,"text":"委員林思銘等20人提案第八條第一項除刪除第九款礦區稅外其餘同現行法條文第二項除有關所得稅總收入之10%修正為15%及第四款之營業稅總收入減除依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之40%修正為全部餘額外其餘均同現行法條文"},{"start":10312.796,"end":10333.175,"text":"第三項,除後段修正為直轄市、市及鄉鎮市徵起之收入65%給各該直轄市、市及鄉鎮市外,取予均同現行法條文。第四項,除作為積增及查緝經費後補之19%,修正為20%外,取予同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條第五項。"},{"start":10335.185,"end":10356.343,"text":"增訂第五項自本法修正施行後每增設一直轄市或准用地方制度法第四條第二項之限應至第一項第一款之所得稅總收入增加提撥10%納入統籌分配稅款總額分配直轄市及限委員許宇甄等16人提案第八條除第一項三除第九款礦區稅"},{"start":10364.977,"end":10386.854,"text":"第二項所得稅總收入10%修正為12%及增訂第五項第一項第四款之營業稅應以其總收入減除依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之5%按直轄市縣市國土計劃以維護農地佔比分配外。據《軍統縣刑法條文》"},{"start":10396.076,"end":10424.689,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第八條除第一項第九款礦區稅及第二項前段修正為前項第一款之所得稅總收入25%第四款之營業稅總收入減除1.5%作為積增經費及依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之全部收入外具均同現行法條文委員王洪威等24人提案第八條"},{"start":10426.178,"end":10441.774,"text":"除第一項刪除第九款礦區稅及第二項檢除依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之百分之四十,修正為百分之五十外,其餘均同現行馬條文。委員陳玉珍等24人提案"},{"start":10443.697,"end":10465.56,"text":"第8條除第1項刪除第9款礦區稅及第4項修正為第1項第6款之菸酒稅在直轄市及台灣省各縣市徵期收入減除1%作為積增及查緝經費後之17%因按人口比例分配直轄市及台灣省各縣市在福建省金門及聯鄉二縣"},{"start":10466.801,"end":10484.487,"text":"增企收入減除1%,作為積增及查緝經費後之80%,分配各該縣。區域收入由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市外,區域均同縣刑法條文。委員邱正軍等19人提案第8條,除第1項刪除第9款礦區稅"},{"start":10488.882,"end":10516.951,"text":"第二項所得稅總收入10%修正為15%徵定第四項第一項第四款之營業稅應以在直轄市及縣市徵期之10%作為各該地方創稅獎勵金並以總收入減除創稅獎勵金及依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之40%及第五款之貨物稅總收入15%應由中央統籌分配直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市"},{"start":10518.712,"end":10534.864,"text":"及將《憲刑法》第4項改錄為第5項並將菸酒稅總收入18%修正為20%外其餘均同《憲刑法》條文。委員丁學中等17人提案第8條"},{"start":10537.827,"end":10557.733,"text":"第一項除三除第九款礦區稅及第二項依法提撥之統一發表給獎獎金後之百分之四十,修正為百分之九十外,其餘均同現行法條文。委員洪孟楷等22人提案第八條。"},{"start":10559.892,"end":10588.059,"text":"第一項除刪除第九款礦區稅外,其餘均同縣刑法條文第二項除所得稅之綜合所得稅收入10%修正為20%營利事業所得稅收入5%修正為10%及不超過該直轄市及縣市自籌財源之10%為限修正為不超過該縣市及直轄市政府及縣市政府自籌財源之20%為限外"},{"start":10591.038,"end":10617.91,"text":"其餘均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條第二項第三項除80%修正為60%外其餘均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條第三項第四項同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條第四項增略第五項第一項第五款之貨物稅總收入10%應由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市"},{"start":10619.775,"end":10645.449,"text":"第六項,同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條第五項,增列第七項,自本法修正施行後,每增設一直轄市或准直轄市,因自第一項第一款之所得稅總收入增加提撥百分之十,納入統籌分配稅款總額,分配直轄市及縣市。委員羅明才等23人提案第八條,"},{"start":10649.045,"end":10677.536,"text":"除第一項刪除第九款礦區稅第二項所得稅總收入10%修正為12%及第三項後段修正為應以在直轄市、市及鄉鎮市徵期之收入60%給各該直轄市、市及鄉鎮市外其與均同現行法條文委員陳昌明等17人提案第8條除第二項修正為"},{"start":10678.976,"end":10706.068,"text":"前項第一款之所得稅總收入10%應由中央統籌分配直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市。增列第四項第一項第四款之營業稅總收入減除1.5%作為積增經費依法提撥之統一發表給獎獎金及第一項第五款之貨物稅總收入10%應由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市。"},{"start":10711.426,"end":10732.714,"text":"現行法第4項改列為第5項且前段修正為應以在直轄市、縣市增企之收入50%給各該直轄市、縣市其所予總收入45%及後段2%修正為5%外及於均同現行法條文。委員黃建豪等21人提案第8條"},{"start":10734.229,"end":10739.953,"text":"除第二項所得總收入10%修正為15%並以減除二字後增訂1.5%作為積增經費等文字及豁稅總收入10%修正為15%外,須依均同現行法條文。"},{"start":10760.723,"end":10786.389,"text":"縣刑法第9條括弧刪除台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱縣刑法第10條括弧刪除台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱縣刑法第11條括弧刪除台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱台灣民眾黨黨團提案第9條除刪除第二項後段第三目之土地增值稅再縣市增企之收入百分之二十應繳由"},{"start":10795.184,"end":10822.131,"text":"應繳由中央統籌分配各縣市等文字及第六項議會修正為立法機關外需於均同現行法第12條委員林思銘等20人提案第12條委員許宇甄等16人提案第12條委員黃洪威等24人提案第12條委員丁學忠等17人提案第12條"},{"start":10825.578,"end":10838.671,"text":"委員洪孟楷等22人提案第12條委員羅明才等23人提案第12條均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第9條國民黨黨團提案第12條除第二項後段"},{"start":10854.664,"end":10868.537,"text":"除第二項刪除後段第三目之土地增值稅在縣市增期之收入20%,應繳由中央統籌分配各縣市等文字外,區域均同縣刑法條文。委員邱振軍等19人提案第12條。同國民黨黨團提案第12條。"},{"start":10876.363,"end":10894.685,"text":"委員陳昌明等17人提案第12條除第二項後段,修正為第三目之土地增值稅在縣市增期之收入全部分配該縣市外,其餘均同縣刑法條文委員黃建豪等21人提案第12條"},{"start":10899.932,"end":10914.261,"text":"除於第二項後段,修正為第三目之土地增值稅,在縣市徵期之收入全部給各該縣市外,取於均同縣刑法條文。縣刑法第13條,跨無刪除。台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明,請參閱。縣刑法第14條,跨無刪除。台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明,請參閱。縣刑法第15條,跨無刪除。台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明,請參閱。"},{"start":10927.23,"end":10938.081,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第10條、第1項除前段修正為第8條、第2項、第4項、第5項及前條等文之外,取於軍統憲刑法第16條之一、第1項、第2項"},{"start":10943.339,"end":10971.931,"text":"一、第八條第二項、第四項及第五項規定由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市之款項以下簡稱中央統籌分配稅款及分配辦法應由中央主管機關、專家、學者及地方政府共同組成之中央統籌分配稅款分配委員會擬定委員會之職責、組成及運作方式等由行政院定之第三項一、前條第二項至第四項"},{"start":10973.779,"end":10976.495,"text":"規定由縣統籌分配直轄市"},{"start":10978.957,"end":11006.429,"text":"由縣統籌分配鄉鎮市之款項以下簡稱縣統籌分配稅款其分配規定由縣政府本條紀財政營需原則並洽商鄉鎮市公所後定之其中依公市分配之款項不得低於可供分配總額之90%依公市涉算分配各該鄉鎮市之金額應於會計年度開始三個月前通知各該鄉鎮市公所"},{"start":11009.231,"end":11026.641,"text":"為林思銘等20人提案第16條。除第一項之前條,修正為第12條,據墨正定,受分配地方政府就有分得部分應列為當年度稅客收入等文字。第二項之款項二字後,刪除"},{"start":11027.881,"end":11048.946,"text":"以下簡稱中央統籌分配稅款及增列報請行政合定等文字第三項之前條修正為第12條外其餘均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第10條委員洪孟楷等20（委員林思銘等20人提案"},{"start":11050.708,"end":11069.562,"text":"委員洪孟楷等22人提案第16條除第一項第二項均增列第六項三字及第二項款項二字後增列括弧以下簡稱中央統籌分配稅款第三項是前條修正於第12條外區域均同委員林思銘等20人提案第16條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條中央統籌分配稅款"},{"start":11079.42,"end":11082.466,"text":"總額98%列為普通統籌分配稅款其餘2%列為特別統籌分配稅款普通"},{"start":11091.684,"end":11116.087,"text":"普通統籌分配稅款應按下列方式分配直轄市及縣市一、中央統籌分配稅款總額94%按公式分配以下檢測按公式分配總額依下列指標及權數計算各該直轄市及縣市應分配之比率分配之一、按公式分配總額應依下列規定分配之"},{"start":11118.365,"end":11146.861,"text":"一、優先彌補各該直轄市及縣市基準財政需要額減基準財政收入額之差額其中縣、所轄、鄉鎮市之基準財政需要額減基準財政收入額之差額並入各該縣的計算二、依本目之一設算分配後之剩餘款項之80%按各該直轄市及縣市最有力指標公式分配其指標及計算方式由全條第二項所定委員會定定"},{"start":11148.499,"end":11177.543,"text":"三、依第一幕設算分配後之剩餘款項之百分之二十應參酌各該直轄市及縣市財政努力及績效分配其指標及計算方式由前條第二項所定委員會定定二、普通統籌分配稅款總額百分之六用以彌補分配年度各該直轄市及縣市依下列方式計算之差短金額如有不足"},{"start":11179.861,"end":11195.94,"text":"得以第三項之特別統籌分配稅款墊資若勝於經扣除應歸還特別統籌分配稅款墊資款項後與以後年度加入錢款按公式分配總額分配"},{"start":11200.185,"end":11226.393,"text":"一、各該直轄市、縣市之差短金額,只依前款涉算貨配之中央統籌分配稅款,即依第26條第一項規定,涉算貨配之一般性補助款加計稅收分成調整影響數後之合計數,較105年度至109年度以下簡稱基準年期中。各年度中央普通統籌分配稅款與一般性"},{"start":11229.614,"end":11251.829,"text":"補助款及依加執行及非加執行營業稅法第11條第6項規定之專案補助款合計數平均值之短少金額其中縣、所轄、鄉、鎮、市與基準年期貨配之上述款項併入各該縣計算。二、依前目規定合算差短金額時不得將各該"},{"start":11253.424,"end":11263.716,"text":"地方政府全民健康保險費補助款及勞工保險費補助款改由中央負擔後至各該地方政府應負擔款項減少之影響數納入計算。"},{"start":11268.035,"end":11288.307,"text":"特別統籌分配稅款應公為支應受分配直轄市及縣市緊急及重大事項所需經費由行政院依實際情形分配之。第二項第二款第一目所稱之稅收分層調整影響數,指本法中華民國某年某月某日修正之條文施行後,"},{"start":11289.227,"end":11311.11,"text":"各該地方政府遺產及證語稅、菸酒稅及土地證語稅及土地增值稅等收入增減數,其合計方式應由依前條第2項所定統籌分配稅款分配委員會定之。應中央相關法令制定定或修正制第12條第1項所列各款地方政府應負擔之款項減少者。"},{"start":11312.981,"end":11333.193,"text":"於一、第二項、第二款規定合算差等金額時應納入計算。第二項、第二款第二目之全民健康保險費補助款與勞工保險費補助款及前項地方政府應負端款項減少數等之合計方式應於一前條第二項所定之統籌分配稅款分配委員會定之"},{"start":11334.534,"end":11348.163,"text":"各該直轄市及縣市努力開闢自治財源至提高其財政自主程度者委員會於一、第二項第一款DM5規定定定財政努力及績效之指標及計算方式時應納入考量"},{"start":11349.67,"end":11377.159,"text":"一、第二項第一款與第二款及第三十七條第四項算定分配各該直轄市及縣市之比例及金額財政部應按次一年度中央統籌分配稅款推估數設算分配各該直轄市及縣市之金額於會計年度開始四個月前通知各該直轄市政府及縣市政府台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十五條直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市"},{"start":11379.158,"end":11407.864,"text":"就其所獲配之中央統籌分配稅款及縣市統籌分配稅款,除前條第二項所定直轄市及縣市應災所需救災經費之不足數額外,應列為當年度稅客收入。委員賴瑞榮等16人提案第15條直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市就其所獲配之中央統籌分配稅款及縣統籌分配稅款,除前條第二項"},{"start":11409.454,"end":11416.775,"text":"所定直轄市及縣市應災害所需救災經費之不足數額外應列為當年度稅客收入"},{"start":11423.65,"end":11444.75,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等16人提案第16條之一除第2項第4款陣列配合國家政策設置高污染產業情形及空氣污染指數較高及第5款第二目陣列配合國家整體經濟建設設置高污染產業情形等文字外區域均衡現行法條文委員林思銘等20人提案第16條"},{"start":11450.1,"end":11456.903,"text":"委員林思銘等20人提案第16條之一除第二項第一款94%修正為92%指標及全數修正為規定刪除第一幕續文"},{"start":11464.175,"end":11490.222,"text":"按公式分配總額應依下列規定分配之等文字第一目之二之三由前條第二項所定委員會定定之文字均修正為應由所定之分配辦法中定之第二款第一目105年度至109年度以下稱基準年期修正為基準年期即為增列第四項至第八項外其餘均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十一條"},{"start":11505.131,"end":11516.269,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第16條之一,第一項除刪除及第12條第二項之第四項等文字,及公式化原則修正為公平發議方式外,其余均同憲刑法第一項。"},{"start":11517.441,"end":11536.992,"text":"第二項除後段修正為應以總額94%列為普通統籌分配稅款其餘6%列為特別統籌分配稅款應公為支應受分配地方政府緊急及其他重大事項所需經費由行政院依實際情形分配之其餘同線刑法第二項第一款"},{"start":11539.309,"end":11561.183,"text":"第三項第一款至第三款普通統籌分配稅款按下列方式分配一可供分配款項15%依非直轄市及之縣市最近三年度申報所得額平均數為基準分配於各縣市各該縣市分配所得額獲配數計算公數如下"},{"start":11563.52,"end":11580.051,"text":"收支劃分法 各該縣市轄區內之人口數乘以全部縣市最近三年度每人平均申報所得而除以各該直轄市最近三年度每人平均所得數誇乎除以全部縣市一千數誇乎內算定數之合計數。"},{"start":11582.128,"end":11598.162,"text":"二、可供分配款項11%不分直轄市及各縣市均分。三、可供分配款項67%按人口比例分配直轄市、縣市並定而提撥直轄市人口數。"},{"start":11600.765,"end":11617.158,"text":"最高者貨配數值2%之金額由直轄市人口數在300萬人以上者按其人口比例分攤並將該款項平均分配金門縣、聯鄉縣及澎湖縣可供分配款項4%分配鄉鎮市其分配方式應參酌鄉鎮市"},{"start":11623.402,"end":11651.257,"text":"正式編制人員人事費及基本建設需求情形,原定公式分配各鄉鎮市。五、建議台北市身為首都保留可供分配款項3%於台北市。六、受分配之直轄市、縣市或鄉鎮市及分配金額較修法前一年度分配金額減少者之全部差短數,以特別統籌分配稅款致應。"},{"start":11655.455,"end":11676.005,"text":"第三項,依前項算定分配各該直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市之金額。財政部應按次一年度中央統籌分配稅款推估數,設算分配各該直轄市及縣市之金額,於會計年度開始四個月前通知各災直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市政府。"},{"start":11677.574,"end":11699.847,"text":"一、第十二條、第二項至第四項規定由縣統籌分配之下鄉鎮市之款項因本條紀財政營需原則由縣政府訂定分配辦法其中依公室分配之款項不得低於可供分配總額之90%依公室設算分配各該鄉鎮市之金額依依會計年度開始三個月前通知各該鄉鎮市公所"},{"start":11702.13,"end":11727.086,"text":"委員蔡宇宇等16人提案第16條除第二項第一款爭略但書但為確保糧食安全與供水穩定原則在國土計劃法國土功能分類中之的農業發展地區第一類、第二類及國土保育區第一類應優先各有一定比例分配直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市補足基本財政需要外,區域均同縣刑法條文"},{"start":11733.174,"end":11757.453,"text":"委員邱振均等19人提案第16條之一第二項第四款財政能力及第五款第二幕營利事業營業而後均增業基礎建設落後程度工業與科技業碳排放情形等文字外其餘均同現行法條文委員丁守中等17人提案第16條之一"},{"start":11761.331,"end":11773.327,"text":"除第二項第一款具末陣列分配應依國土計劃農業發展地區與該直轄市縣市所佔比例超過50%應優先補助外其餘均同縣刑法條文"},{"start":11775.134,"end":11798.445,"text":"委員洪孟楷等22人提案第16條第一項至第三項,除第二項序文陣列,按本法第四條之指標,設算分配公式,第一款第二目及第三目,應於二之後均陣列一前條第二項等文字,第二款第三目之第三十條修正為第二十七條,基準年期修正為某年度至某年度,"},{"start":11799.738,"end":11823.773,"text":"以下簡稱基準年期外,許宇均同委員林思明等20人提案第16條之於第一項至第三項。第四項,除統籌分配稅款分配委員會修正為分配辦法外,許宇同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條第4項。第五項,除刪除委員會3之外,許宇同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條第7項。第六項,同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條第7項。"},{"start":11844.234,"end":11850.147,"text":"委員陳昌明等17人提案第16條之一同委員邱振軍等19人提案第16條之一"},{"start":11859.124,"end":11878.542,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第12條,前條第二項第一目之一,所稱基準財政需要額,指下列各款之合計金額,一、正式編制人員人事費,包含本奉、家籍、生活津貼、退休撫恤金及保險費,二、基本工作費"},{"start":11881.587,"end":11901.573,"text":"基本辦公費及遠景服裝費、三、警政及消防外勤人員操勤加班費、四、依地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務補助費、補助條例、定有支給或補助標準之民意代表及村里長費用、五、"},{"start":11902.762,"end":11921.473,"text":"一、公教人員保險法規定應由受分配地方政府負擔之私立學校教職員保險費補助。六、依國民年金法、農民健康保險條例、老年農民福利津貼暫行條例及依老人福利法有關中低收入老人生活津貼發給規定"},{"start":11923.714,"end":11937.699,"text":"應由受分配地方政府負擔之社會福利支出。七、高中至以上學校扣除人事費及基本辦公費後之交易支出。八、對於公立醫療院所支補助經費。九、基本建設經費"},{"start":11939.423,"end":11965.071,"text":"收支劃分法．直轄市及縣市經中央統籌分配稅款分配委員會決議之特殊經費。前條第二項第一款第一幕之一所稱基準財政收入額指負稅收入扣除中央統籌分費稅款及依地方稅法通則徵收之負稅收入後務之數額其中屬第九條第一項第一款之第六款所列各稅按百分之九十計算"},{"start":11966.567,"end":11993.405,"text":"但直轄市及縣市之稅客收入超過其前三年平均值10%以內者,其超過部分按80%計算,超過10%至20者,其超過部分按60%計算,超過20%以上者,其超過部分按40%計算。依前條第二項第一款第一目之一,算定各該直轄市縣市或縣所轄鄉鎮市之差額為負值時,以零列計。"},{"start":11994.557,"end":12020.82,"text":"第一項及第二項所定基準財政需要額與基準財政收入額之合計標準及計算方式應由依第10條第二項所定之委員會定之。委員林思銘等20人提案第16條之二除第一項第6款具首刪除國民年金法"},{"start":12023.823,"end":12033.344,"text":"令刪除第九款、第十款第二項具中之第九條修正的第十二條具末刪除但書之文字"},{"start":12049.895,"end":12075.263,"text":"及第四條修正為第一項及第二項所定財政需要額與財政收入額之合計標準及計算方式因應於分配辦法中定之。其餘均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十二條。委員洪孟楷等22人提案第十六條之二。"},{"start":12081.28,"end":12096.29,"text":"除第1項第6款具首刪除《農民健康保險條例》、《老年農民福利津貼暫行條例》等文字,第二項具中之第12條修正為第9條,及第4項應於"},{"start":12108.425,"end":12116.114,"text":"二字後甄列一第16條第二項所定之等文字外其餘軍統委員林思銘等20人提案第16條之二委員賴志寶等29人提案第16條之二"},{"start":12126.482,"end":12142.487,"text":"收支劃分法配合地方改制修正前第8條第一項第一款之所得稅總收入20%為地方政府之補充財源應由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市。稅客"},{"start":12144.144,"end":12164.631,"text":"由補充財源分配直轄市及縣市之款項及分配辦法應依下列各款之規定,由財政部洽商中央主計機關及受分配地方政府後擬定,報請行政院核定。一、補充財源應以總額5%分配台東縣、花蓮縣、澎湖縣、金門縣及連江縣總額95%分配其餘直轄市及縣市。二、"},{"start":12172.765,"end":12188.571,"text":"全款補充財源稅款算定可供分配之款項後應參酌受分配地方政府之人口數合理人均稅出與最近三年度決算人均稅出平均數之差額等因素"},{"start":12189.369,"end":12212.572,"text":"延定公視分配各級地方政府。前項第二款地方政府合理人均稅出與全國平均人均稅出依各地方人口及自然條件分級加成設算之。第二項限制人口數合理人均稅出與最近三年度決算人均稅出應包含所辖鄉鎮市。"},{"start":12219.966,"end":12228.05,"text":"委員洪孟楷等22人提案第16條之一、第16條之三、第16條之一第6項規定通知分配直轄市之款項直轄市應參酌各區域、各城鄉差距"},{"start":12236.514,"end":12250.86,"text":"居民生活型態、產業模式、人文社會及環境生態保護等因素嚴定、透明化、公式化之方式分配所轄各該區,其分配規定由直轄市政府訂定,報請財政部被查。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條"},{"start":12261.513,"end":12276.705,"text":"第11條第3項規定之特別統籌分配稅款應本公開透明原則辦理分配並按既公佈收支明細及結存情形在於本法鎖定程序動之前則作為協助地方政府財務調度所需財源"},{"start":12279.861,"end":12301.553,"text":"第11條第三項緊急及重大事項所需經費中屬之應直轄市及縣市災害所需救災經費部分以各該直轄市及縣市應災害所需所需救災費經費之不足數額為原則全項所稱不足數額指直轄市政府及縣市政府一"},{"start":12302.54,"end":12319.021,"text":"障礙防救法相關規定動之年度災害準備金或本已緩計及原則調整年度預算支應後及不足數額經行政院核定支應部分及支應要件處理程序及其他相關事項之辦法由行政院定之。"},{"start":12328.53,"end":12345.435,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第13條依第11條第8項規定通知分配縣之款項縣應提撥一定金額分配所轄鄉鎮市其金額不得低於所轄鄉鎮市下列各款之合計數一、基準年期中"},{"start":12346.755,"end":12366.946,"text":"各年度中央普通統籌分配稅款與一、加值型及非加值型營業稅法第11條第6項規定之專案補助款之合計數之105%合計數之平均值。二、基準年期中各年度由現分配之中央一般性補助款之平均值。"},{"start":12368.393,"end":12378.032,"text":"前向現應分配所辖鄉鎮市之金額應參酌各鄉鎮市基準財政收支差短、財政努力及績效等因素。"},{"start":12379.315,"end":12403.546,"text":"延定透明化、公式化之方式分配且各年度各鄉鎮市貨配金額不得低於基準年期中各年度中央普通統籌分配稅款與依加值型及非加值型營業稅法第11條第6項規定之專案補助款合計數之平均值加計分配年度與遺產及證與稅在各該鄉鎮市預估增期"},{"start":12407.168,"end":12427.838,"text":"收入20%之數額及分配規定由縣政府恰商鄉鎮市公所後定定,報請財政部備查。縣政府依前二項規定設算分配各該鄉鎮市之款項。縣政府應於會計年度開始三個月前通知財政部、中央主計機關及各該鄉鎮市公所。"},{"start":12432.503,"end":12445.791,"text":"各鄉鎮事工所努力開闢自治財源至提高其財政自主程度者於一、第二項規定定定財政努力及績效之指標及計算方式時應納入考量"},{"start":12447.403,"end":12466.673,"text":"各縣政府位於前四項規定辦理者經財政部會同中央主計機關查明後應縣級另起改正。藉其為改正者得暫緩撥付應分配該縣之中央統籌分配稅款或於第二項所定之最低金額先行設算並撥付各該鄉鎮市。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條第11條及第13條規定應分配及"},{"start":12477.574,"end":12506.517,"text":"因分配各直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市之款項由財政部按月撥付並以平均撥付為原則。各年度中央統籌分配稅款實際收入數,較年度開始前支預估數超增時。中央得救超增部分,著定一定比例作為短增年度支填補財源。前項之一定比例及撥補方式等相關事項應於依第10條第2項所定之分配辦法中定之。"},{"start":12510.88,"end":12535.591,"text":"民眾黨黨團現行法第11條括弧刪除台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱委員洪孟楷等22人提案第17條財政部應會統中央組織機關於會計年度開始6個月前藉由第16條之一、第二項、第一款及第二款之相關涉算資料與爭議事項及其他有關"},{"start":12537.25,"end":12557.305,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款分配之重大事項,召開中央統籌分配稅款諮詢會議,必要時並得隨時召開。前一項諮詢會議應邀請學者專家、中央相關機關、直轄市政府及縣市政府出席。"},{"start":12567.708,"end":12591.016,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第17條各級政府對他級或同級政府之稅客不得重增或附加但直轄市政府、縣市政府為辦理自治事項籌措所需財源依地方稅法通則規定附加徵收者不在此限各級地方政府不得對入境客入境稅或通過稅台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":12597.691,"end":12617.927,"text":"第18條、委員林思銘等20人提案第19條、委員許宇甄等16人提案第19條、委員羅明才等23人提案第19條。均為各級政府為適應特別需要得經各該立法機關之立法舉辦臨時性質之說客。"},{"start":12624.824,"end":12649.509,"text":"第二節獨佔及專賣收入台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱第二十條現行法第二十條台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱現行法第二十一條台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱第三節台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二節工程收益費收入"},{"start":12652.157,"end":12676.964,"text":"為憲刑法第三節工程收益費收入。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第19條,委員林思銘等20人提案第22條,委員洪孟楷等22人提案第22條,"},{"start":12681.136,"end":12705.647,"text":"修正為各級政府徵收工程收益費應依工程收益費徵收條例相關規定辦理工程之舉辦與工程收益費之徵收均應經過預算程序使得為之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三節結名同憲刑法第四節結名台灣民眾黨黨團提案第20條同憲刑法第23條"},{"start":12709.54,"end":12728.808,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第4條結明同憲刑法第5節結明台灣民眾黨黨團提案第21條委員林思銘等20人提案第24條委員洪孟楷等20人提案第24條均修正為各級政府及所屬機關學校徵收規費應依規約法之規定辦理"},{"start":12735.533,"end":12746.718,"text":"憲刑法第25條、台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明,請參閱。委員林思銘等20人提案第25條,刪除。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第5條結明同憲刑法第6條結明。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第22條同憲刑法第26條。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第6節結明同憲刑法第7節結明。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第23條"},{"start":12763.578,"end":12768.582,"text":"同憲刑法第27條、憲刑法第28條、台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱、委員林思銘等20人提案第28條刪除"},{"start":12777,"end":12784.484,"text":"收支劃分法 提案第7條結明同憲法第8節結明台灣民眾黨黨團提案第24條同憲法第29條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第8節結明同憲法第9節結明台灣民眾黨黨團提案第25節中央為謀全國之經濟平衡發展得編列一般性補助款及計劃性補助款"},{"start":12798.591,"end":12816.449,"text":"補助直轄市政府及縣市政府,令對於直轄市政府及縣市政府之重大或緊急事項,得編列經費給予補助,前向一般性補助款、各年度總額,不得低於本法中華民國某年某月某日修正之條文施行前一年度所得稅總收入10%及獲利稅總收入10%之合計數。"},{"start":12820.274,"end":12839.519,"text":"計劃型補助款應由中央各主管機關依戰策及業務需要就第27條第一項所列四項予以補助其各年度總額是中央整體財政收支狀況決定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第26條中央對直轄市政府及縣市政府之一般性補助款應以補助其教育"},{"start":12840.439,"end":12866.649,"text":"社會福利及基本設施等項目所需經費為限,其分費方式依下列各款制規定。一、交易經費應參酌受補助直轄市政府、縣市政府之財政能力與所屬各級學校學生人數、班級數及其他應加計之項目權數等因素定之。二、社會福利經費應參酌受補助直轄市政府、縣市政府之財政能力、各類人口數、各項法定社會福利津貼支領人數、人次"},{"start":12868.289,"end":12887.852,"text":"收支劃分法 及其他應加計之項目、權術等因素定之。三、基本設施經費應參著受補助直轄市政府、縣市政府之人口數、土地面積、公共設施面積及其他應加計之項目、權術等因素定之,並得視實際需要,就特定項目所需經費,才指定方式分配。"},{"start":12889.144,"end":12911.082,"text":"前項第三款基本設施經費得就離島地區、商港所在地之直轄市政府、縣市政府因商港建設費廢除與加計全數方式增加分配金額直轄市政府及縣市政府依第一項所定分配方式及前項所定加計全數所獲分配之一般性補助款"},{"start":12912.659,"end":12938.895,"text":"中央得限定其支用範圍、支出用途或指定應辦理之施政計劃及內容。直銷市政府或縣市政府如有違反限制規定者,中央得就其違反部分予以暫停撥付或扣減補助款。委員洪孟楷等22人提案第30條之一,除第一項第一款之班級數修正為應由班級數外,其餘均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第26條。"},{"start":12949.485,"end":12971.394,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十七條中央為謀全國之經濟平衡發展得編列計劃型補助款補助直轄市政府及縣市政府全項之計劃型補助款應由中央各主管機關依政策及業務需要予以補助但下列四項為限一、跨越直轄市、縣市之建設計劃但離島地區不受跨越轄區限制"},{"start":12972.454,"end":12990.632,"text":"二、計劃效益具長期性及整體性之計劃項目。三、具有示範性作用之重大建設計劃。四、配合中央重大政策或建設,需由直轄市政府、縣市政府配合辦理之事項。中央對於跨區域之建設計劃或合作事項,應優先給予補助或其他必要協助。"},{"start":12994.019,"end":13000.281,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":13020.327,"end":13028.037,"text":"及於均因案計劃性質定定明確、客觀、透明化之審查基準與處理原則及管考規定"},{"start":13031.069,"end":13054.384,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第29條中央對直轄市政府及縣市政府之計劃型補助款應以補助下列事項為限一、計劃效益及長期性及整體性之計劃項目二、跨越直轄市縣市或二以上縣市建設計劃但離島地區不受跨越轄區之限制三、具有示範性作用或為"},{"start":13055.505,"end":13064.654,"text":"收支劃分法及財政收支劃分法及財政收支劃分法及財政收支劃分法及財政收支劃分法及財政收支劃分法及財政收支劃分法及財政收支劃分"},{"start":13081.181,"end":13094.375,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財"},{"start":13103.764,"end":13127.99,"text":"定定明確、客觀、透明化之審查核基準與處理原則及管考規定,並應將經費之核定與執行暗記公告並上網登載,公開查詢。委員林思銘等20國民黨黨團提案"},{"start":13139.479,"end":13140.681,"text":"收支劃分法。民眾黨黨團提案第27條"},{"start":13144.192,"end":13173.442,"text":"中央為謀求全國之經濟平衡發展,得編列計劃型補助款補助直轄市政府及縣市政府。前項之計劃型補助款應由中央各主管機關依政策及業務需要予以補助,但以下列事項為限。一、跨越直轄市縣市之建設計劃,但離島地區不受跨越轄區之限制。二、計劃效益具長期性及整體性之計劃項目。三、具有具有示範性作用之重大建設計劃,使配合中央"},{"start":13175.216,"end":13179.01,"text":"配合中央政、中央政策或建設需由直轄市政府、縣市政府配合"},{"start":13191.192,"end":13212.688,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案。國民黨黨團提案第30條,中央為謀全國之經濟平衡發展,得足以補助地方政府,但以下列事項為限。一、計畫效益涵蓋命廣且具整體性之計畫項目。二、跨越直轄市縣市或二以上縣市之建設計畫。三、具有示範性作用之重大建設計畫。四、因應中央政策"},{"start":13213.308,"end":13230.087,"text":"重大政策或建設需由地方政府配合辦理之事項,前向各款補助之辦法,由行政院另定之。中央政府給予地方政府之一般性補助款項金額,不得少於修正施行前一年度預算編列書,文、黃、黃薇等24人提案第30條"},{"start":13236.118,"end":13257.427,"text":"第30條第1項修正為計劃、效益涵蓋面廣且具長期性、永續性及整體性的計劃項目,取經同性行法條文。委員洪孟楷等22人提案第30條中央為謀全國之經濟平衡發展,得編列一般性補助款及計劃型補助款,補助直轄市政府及縣市政府。"},{"start":13259.417,"end":13285.845,"text":"令對於知曉市政府及縣市政府之重大或緊急事項得編列經費給予補助。前項一般性補助款各年度總額不得低於本法中華民國某年某月某日修正之條文施行前一年度之金額。計劃型補助款應由中央各主管機關依政策及業務需要就第30條之二所列事項予以補助,其各年度總額是中央整體財政收支狀況決定之。"},{"start":13295.734,"end":13317.779,"text":"委員洪孟楷等22人提案第30條之二,足第一款、第二款互調,第三款刪除,或為直轄市政府及縣市政府等文字,並增列第五款直轄市政府及縣市政府之重大事項,增列第二項"},{"start":13318.956,"end":13339.376,"text":"全項各款補助事項、其相關補助項目、補助比例、計劃執行管考及其他相關事項之辦法由行政院定之,及第五項後段修正為其經貿之核定與執行均應按計公告並上網登載公開查詢外。其餘均同、委員林思銘等20人提案第30條。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第30條"},{"start":13348.018,"end":13375.257,"text":"中央會辦理第35條第2項、第37條第5項及地方制度法第71條第2項所規定之4項得就直轄市政府及縣市政府就施政計畫執行效能、年度預算編制或執行情形及相關開源節流績效等由行政院訂定辦法進行考核並得依考核結果增加或減少各該直轄市政府或縣市政府依第26條第1項規定所獲分配之一般性補助款。"},{"start":13376.861,"end":13392.271,"text":"財政收支劃分法 提案第31條,現為謀鄉鎮市兼之經濟平衡發展,對於鄉鎮市的足以補助,其中現對於跨區域之建設計劃或合作事項,應優先隔離補助或其他必要之協助,其補助規定由縣政府定之。"},{"start":13397.079,"end":13425.263,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第31條、委員林思銘等20人提案第31條、委員許宇甄等16人提案第31條、委員洪孟楷等22人提案第31條、委員羅明才等23人提案第31條,均修正為現未謀鄉鎮市兼之經濟平衡發展,對於鄉鎮市得足以補助,其中現對於跨區域之建設計劃或合作事項應要先給予補助或其他必要之協助,其補助規定由縣政府定之。"},{"start":13431.667,"end":13432.15,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第28條"},{"start":13434.744,"end":13462.242,"text":"及委員洪孟楷等22人提案第32條均徵定為加強原住民族及原住民族地區之發展中央各主管機關得就下列四項編列計劃型補助款與補助不受前條第一項各款規定之限制一、原住民族交易文化二、原住民衛生醫療、就業服務及社會福利事業三、原住民族地區經濟產業發展交通水利、飲水設施、住宅改善、公共建設與土地開發利用及管理"},{"start":13463.57,"end":13476.123,"text":"是都市原住民生活輔導五其他謀求原住民族地區均衡發展之相關計劃。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第32條同憲刑法第33條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第9節結明同憲刑法第10節結明"},{"start":13481.69,"end":13498.523,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第33條,除第一項修正為各級政府非法律規定或地方立法機關之依決,不得發行公債或為超過一年之國內外借款。其餘均同訓刑法條文,委員羅明才等23人提案第34條,同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第33條,委員林思銘等20人提案第34條,"},{"start":13501.986,"end":13530.479,"text":"委員許宇甄等16人提案第34條及委員洪孟楷等22人提案第34條除將議會修正為地方立法機關外其餘均同現行法條文第三章之初未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第34條同現行法第35條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第35條委員林思銘等20人提案第35條之一及委員洪孟楷等22人提案第35條之一均除第一項計修正為極外其餘均同現行法第35條之一"},{"start":13531.9,"end":13547.553,"text":"第36條未修正。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第37條,除第三項具中其經費三字後增列之負擔,除法律另有規定外等文字,及第四項修正為各級地方政府未依前三項規定負擔應負擔經費時"},{"start":13550.675,"end":13575.756,"text":"其上級政府得暫停撥付其中央統籌分配稅款、縣統籌分配稅款、補助款或以其當年度或以用年度所獲分配之中央統籌分配稅款、縣統籌分配稅款或補助款扣減抵充之必要時並得扣減其補助款。其餘均同縣刑法條文文林思銘等20人提案第37條除第四項中之前三項修正為前二項外其餘均同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第37條"},{"start":13577.978,"end":13585.907,"text":"收支劃分法、委員洪孟楷等22人提案第37條除第4項、前2項修正為第2項及前項外區域軍統委員林思銘等20人提案第37條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第38條"},{"start":13590.734,"end":13615.804,"text":"地方政府應於年度預算中就下列各項支出,又會先籌妥財源編列預算之應。一、以列入本法核算之基準財政需要額項目及一般性補助款補助之經費項目。二、依教育經費編列於管理法核定之教育經費應付單數。三、依其他法律規定必須付單之經費。四、中央各主管機關計劃型補助款中應由地方政府配合分單之經費。"},{"start":13616.784,"end":13619.985,"text":"收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、繼續詢答．一、"},{"start":13642.293,"end":13657.496,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款、縣統籌分配稅款或補助款扣減抵充之必要時並得扣減及補充及補助款。委員賴志寶等29人提案第37條之二,於第16條之二受分配地方政府,於最近一年度"},{"start":13663.201,"end":13675.474,"text":"須以最近一年度累計未償餘額結算數高於法定債限60%或無以前年度累計剩餘者應提撥50%以上為常在草原或沖銷累計短處。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第39條"},{"start":13679.218,"end":13696.584,"text":"一、第二十六條第三項、第三十七條第四項、第五項及前條第二項規定暫停撥付、暫緩撥付、扣減底充或扣減之程序及相關處理事項,分別由財政部於一、第十條第二項所定之分配辦法及行政院於第二十九條所定之補助辦法中定之。"},{"start":13698.021,"end":13713.311,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第40條同憲刑法第38條台灣民眾黨黨團提案第41條同憲刑法第38條之一委員林思銘等20人提案第38條之一及委員洪孟楷等22人提案第38條之一均除增列第二項"},{"start":13714.212,"end":13740.955,"text":"公務員違反本法規定者,因移送監察院談合或糾舉外,居經同現行法條文。委員賴世保等22人提案第38條之一,除增訂第二項,因制定令修正或廢止法令而影響本法第12條之下事及縣市稅收,造成之下事及縣市政府稅收之實質損失。於修正擴大、中央統籌分配稅款規模之規定施行前,由中央政府補足。"},{"start":13741.736,"end":13763.268,"text":"每年不受預算法第23條有關公債收入不得充經常支出支用之限制及增訂第三項前項實質損失之計算由中央主管機關考量歷年可徵收之最高金額、經濟成長等情形與直轄市政府及縣市政府協商之外其餘金融現行法條文第四章負責"},{"start":13764.429,"end":13787.146,"text":"未修正。」台灣民眾黨黨團提案第42條本法中華民國某年某月某日修正之條文施行後新設後改制之直轄市、縣市、鄉鎮市準用直轄市規定之縣依法設置援助民族自治區及縣市行政區域重劃時及財政收支劃分調整日期由行政院定之。委員林思銘等20人提案第38條之二除增訂第二條"},{"start":13787.887,"end":13813.033,"text":"第二項本法某年某月某日令修正之條文自中華民國某年某月某日起施行外具同性刑法條文。委員許宇甄等16人提案第38條、委員羅明才等23人提案第38條之二。處軍甄定第二項本法中華民國某年某月某日修正之條文施行後新設或改制之直轄市縣市鄉鎮市準用直轄市規定之縣依法設置之"},{"start":13815.302,"end":13824.708,"text":"以法設置援助民主自治區及行政區域重劃時其財政收支劃分調整日期由行政院定之"},{"start":13826.792,"end":13853.908,"text":"外其亦均同現行法條文,委員賴志寶等29人提案第38條之二,除增訂第二項本法某年某月某日修正之第16條之二及第30條之37條之二之施行日期由行政院以命令定之外,其亦均同現行法條文,台灣民眾黨黨團提案第43條,委員許宇甄等16人提案第39條,委員羅明才等23人提案第39條,均修正為本法施行日期由行政院定之。副表1台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參閱"},{"start":13856.049,"end":13865.897,"text":"提案、委員許宇甄等16人提案、國民黨黨團提案、委員丁薛忠等17人提案、委員洪孟楷等22人提案及委員羅明才等23人均提案"},{"start":13867.185,"end":13886.95,"text":"副表1刪除、副表2台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明請參議員、委員許宇甄等16人提案、委員國民黨黨團提案、委員丁薛忠等17人提案、委員洪孟才等22人提案及委員羅明才等23人均提案、副表2刪除。宣導完畢。"},{"start":13946.028,"end":13947.019,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":14108.902,"end":14109.988,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":14187.722,"end":14189.975,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":14317.825,"end":14327.409,"text":"收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等24人分別擬具"},{"start":14344.273,"end":14346.495,"text":"可以吃便當,去洗手間的也請便,謝謝。"},{"start":14372.995,"end":14388.263,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會"},{"start":14402.875,"end":14426.33,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政"}]}},{"id":"153473","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153473","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c70777bd98de9ddd644459c493b59145da8feffd684e89f8388310635cb2db5e875e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：王義川──民進黨政策會的執行長，公然在媒體講得非常清楚，用手機訊號比對青鳥行動、519民眾黨集會、2024大選選前之夜的參與者之年齡、身分、政黨傾向，這是非常非常嚴重的。今天特別要拜託所有的公務員，我是老公務員，看到這樣子，我們就要主動，到底我們的法有沒有足……尤其今天檢察司也在，這個部分我認為應該主動偵辦。剛才張啓楷委員講得非常清楚，所以到底這個怎麼樣能夠……我認為他是真的喔！王義川不是唬爛的喔！他講的是真的。我認為是真的。所以法務部檢察司要積極偵辦，然後透過這樣的一個事實，看看在法律上、在執行上要怎麼樣去檢討、去防範。","我們就先談中華電信，寫得很清楚啊！客群分析包括特定族群、國籍/大陸，你看，都可以知道！剛才中華電信董事長……"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你剛才一再答復我們的委員說王義川沒有申請。不是他啦！絕對不是他個人去跟你們申請，你們也沒提供給他，你們可能提供到別的地方去，他再透過其他的管道。剛才你一直講相關的科技防疫，你的用詞是下架，還是叫什麼？"],["郭董事長水義：平台下架。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：平台下架？"],["郭董事長水義：資料銷毀。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：銷毀了嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：對，資料銷毀了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：剛才我有聽你答詢喔！那時沒有講銷毀！資料銷毀了？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，是！資料銷毀了！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：銷毀之前呢？銷毀之前是不是註記在什麼地方？當初可以copy嗎？還是可以怎麼樣？還是其他公司可以……","這個部分都必須去瞭解，才能夠做防範。再怎麼樣好的法律，如果這些沒有做好的話，也是很困難！所以剛才張啓楷委員講得那麼清楚啊！對不對？請問一下這個要怎麼去處理？NCC嗎？還是數發部？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，基本上因為個人資料我們管的是電信的部分，如果是數據資料分析的話，有些可能是資訊服務業，那麼我們就會跟數發部或其他部會大家共同來處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不管哪一個部會，現在都要通力合作……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，當然！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個會涉及行政院最近送出來的四個打詐的法案，訂得再怎麼好，這個沒有弄好的話，全部都是空的啦！對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我也常常接到詐騙的電話啊！對方怎麼連我的名字都知道呢？對不對？也許因為我是立法委員，所以他知道，可是一般民眾告訴我：他怎麼知道我的電話，還知道我的名字？一般民眾這樣講啊！也許因為我是政治人物，所以他知道我，但是一般民眾告訴我：他怎麼知道？這顯然就是毫無防範，已經到這種地步了！所以打詐四法訂得再怎麼周延，這個沒有弄好，一切都是徒然啦！現在個資法是你們還是誰主管？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：現在已經成立個資保護委員會的籌備處了，當然，在它還沒有正式成立以前，還是分散式的，由各個部會就它主管的部分去……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以主管機關目前還是法務部？不是你們嗎？現在是由哪個機關主管？"],["黃次長謀信：籌備委員會。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：籌備委員會只是籌備耶！"],["黃次長謀信：現在它是主管機關。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這就是一個問題！籌備處耶！剛才討論那個臨時提案的時候是行政院，說行政院不行，怎麼會呢？當然是行政院啊！籌備處只是籌備而已啊！我這個老公務員一聽就覺得奇怪！所以當然還是你們法務部啦！個資法修了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這整個業務現在都移到個資保護籌備委員會，已經不在法務部了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：個資法現在怎麼修的？主管機關是誰？就寫籌備處嗎？不會吧！法律不可能這樣寫的啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：個資法是寫個人資料保護委員會，個人資料保護委員會成立以後，原來分散在各個機關的所有職權就給這個……"],["鄭天財Sra 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你們可能提供到別的地方去他透過其他的管道剛才你一直講說那個我們的那個"},{"start":193.567,"end":206.072,"text":"相關這些科技防疫的這些你說你的用詞是什麼下架還是叫什麼平台下架平台下架資料銷毀銷毀了嗎對資料銷毀剛才因為我有聽你的答詢那時候沒有講銷毀資料銷毀了資料銷毀報告委員是銷毀之前呢"},{"start":216.707,"end":242.478,"text":"消委之前是不是數據在當初可以copy嗎?還是可以怎麼樣?還是其他的公司可以?所以這個部分都必須要去瞭解才能夠去做防範所以在怎麼樣好的法律如果這些沒有做好的話也是很困難所以剛才張熙凱委員講的那個很清楚對不對?"},{"start":244.267,"end":249.048,"text":"請問一下這個要怎麼去處理?NCC嗎?還是蘇華部?這個不管哪一個部會,現在是要通力合作"},{"start":271.002,"end":285.434,"text":"這個會涉及到什麼﹖你打﹖你﹖徐貞燕最近送出來的四個打詐的﹖你在訂的怎麼好﹖這個沒有弄好﹖全部都空的了﹖對不對﹖人民常常﹖我也常常聽到接到電話﹖詐騙的電話﹖他怎麼連我的名字都知道呢﹖"},{"start":298.559,"end":327.421,"text":"對不對也許我是立法院知道一般一般民眾也告訴我他怎麼知道我的電話也知道我的名字一般民眾這樣講啊也許他知道我是我是政治人物啊但是一般民眾告訴我他怎麼知道這個顯然就是毫無防範已經到這種地步啊所以你在打詐釋法釋法嗎你在定了在怎麼遮掩這個沒有弄好"},{"start":330.171,"end":356.693,"text":"一切都是突然的所以這個部分呢這個作為一個現在個資法現在是還是誰現在我們現在已經有成立那個個資保護委員會的籌備處嘛當然還沒有成立以前我們現在還是分散式的各個部會所以這個主管機關目前還是法務部嗎不是你們現在是誰籌備委員會"},{"start":361.72,"end":363.221,"text":"當然還是你法務部"},{"start":388.942,"end":398.495,"text":"法修了嗎?各自法修了嗎?這整個業務現在都移到各自籌備委員會了。各自法現在怎麼修的?主管機關?對。寫籌備處嗎?不會吧?"},{"start":404.678,"end":405.459,"text":"不管怎樣因為時間的關係"},{"start":425.145,"end":425.165,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153472","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153472","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707e1e641124385b82759c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be2e705b7cd2fed71c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:30:52 - 13:44:34","影片長度":"00:13:42","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T13:30:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T13:44:34+08:00","duration":822,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1650,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時30分）謝謝主席，是不是麻煩有請通傳會陳主委，以及中華電信的郭董事長？"],["主席：請陳主委、請郭董事長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好、董事長好。主委，我先針對我上一次提出來的問題繼續往下追，因為前面有一個NCC主委蕭祈宏，他淪為詐團的門神，這件事情人神共憤，我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：上一次我說，針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用，我問你NCC有沒有行政裁處，你說要等到檢察官偵查結束，你要進行行政調查才會裁處，相信主委應該還記得吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們已經有裁處，有相關的案件。"],["黃委員國昌：2024年1月起訴了，從我上次詢問到現在也經過一段時間，現在裁處的結果是什麼？針對飛速移動、台灣卓一、二十五電訊。什麼時候裁處的？裁處的結果是什麼？因為我一直在查NCC相關的委員會議、新聞稿，我都沒找到，現在裁處的結果是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們裁處的是海峽電信還有……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，那個是之前另外一個案，是去年的案子，那早就處理完了啦！我上次在問你的，就是針對蕭祈宏擔任顧問的事，包括飛速移動、台灣卓一、二十五電訊。我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了，你說你要時間嘛！現在裁處的結果是什麼？"],["黃副處長天陽：跟委員報告，因為卓一電訊或二十五電訊是檢察官在偵辦的案子……"],["黃委員國昌：它起訴了啊！"],["黃副處長天陽：對，我理解，我是說，因為它有一些技術的東西，我們還在釐清……"],["黃委員國昌：所以還沒有裁處嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：這個部分還沒，因為還是要……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有裁處就沒有裁處，浪費這麼多時間，主委，你還需要多久？"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告，二十五電訊跟台灣卓一並非電信事業，二十五電訊提供的服務並……因為下面的資訊是黑莓卡，二十五電訊提供的是黑莓卡，並非提供電信服務。"],["黃委員國昌：所以變成是說，這些都不屬於NCC裁處的範圍嗎？"],["蔡處長國棟：目前為止，我們看到的訊息，二十五電訊和台灣卓一是如此。"],["黃委員國昌：你們那個行政調查報告還要多久？"],["蔡處長國棟：我們看過起訴書上面的訊息，到目前為止二十五電訊現在已經來……終止服務，跟我們廢止他們的電信服務……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，這不是我的問題，你有兩種可能的答案。第一個，我沒有要做行政調查，這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛！主委上次跟我說的是，你要做行政調查嘛！我現在的問題很具體，行政調查什麼時候會出來？"],["蔡處長國棟：我們現在所瞭解的資料是，台灣卓一它並不是電……它並沒有提供電信服務，所以它不是電信事業，如果說調查完，應該是目前這樣的一個情形。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎？請主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個行政調查來講，比如說除這兩家還有沒有其他的，像黑莓卡跟比特幣這個部分，這個會涉及到相關的法律是什麼，我們要……比如說是刑法還是行政法……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你有沒有要做行政調查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這還是在處理當中啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以還要處理多久？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，要看處理什麼事情，如果說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦，我請主委再回去看一下我們上次詢答的內容。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，在我們打詐四法裡面，針對黑莓……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我不是在講打詐四法，這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查？"],["蔡處長國棟：跟委員報告，我們現在已經針對二十五電訊去調查過，它提供的服務……"],["黃委員國昌：請問調查報告什麼時候可以做出來？"],["蔡處長國棟：我們目前並沒有發現二十五電訊在這件事情上有違反電光法上的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：所以它被起訴了，但是沒有違法？是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，它起訴所違反的是刑法的相關規定，以行政調查來講，我們只是說，我們當時調查……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，如果你今天行政調查的結果是它沒有違反相關的法令，那也是一個調查的結論嘛！我的意思是……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是說，沒有違反電信管理法……"],["黃委員國昌：我不要聽你們講了，白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來？還需要多久？你說現在調查完了，等一下回去可能就可以寫行政調查報告了嘛！你的行政調查報告經不經得起檢驗再來講嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們一個月內給委員。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月內喔！行政調查報告順便說明一下，檢察官上面所點出來的事實。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，OK。"],["黃委員國昌：蕭祈宏協助二十五電訊公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司的人員接洽，是跟誰接洽？接洽什麼事情？要在行政調查報告當中一併說明，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以，我們正本已經……"],["黃委員國昌：好，請中華電信董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去瞭解？這個詐騙的門神蕭祈宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫？"],["郭董事長水義：本人有瞭解，有跟主管聯繫，但後面我們都沒有進行任何合作。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，他跟誰聯繫、聯繫的事項是什麼，中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明？可以嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們會後提供。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！針對大家今天很關心的事情，也就是涉及到在不同的時間跟空間，使用這一些電信的使用人，不管是不是有去識別化，因為你即使有去識別化，如果有ID做連結，還是要回溯才能做比對嘛！我想這個基本的common sense大家都有。","來，請中華電信董事長。我5月29號的時候，我發函給中華電信說我要跟你們購買，2024年5月19號在北平東路的大型集會，2024年5月24號臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路的大型集會，在你們產品裡面，人潮客群分析的這個產品，請問針對這兩場集會，中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從來都沒有做過？如果我今天要跟你們買，你們會出售嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有的話就無從出售。第二……"],["黃委員國昌：你們可以回去做啊！"],["郭董事長水義：第二，我們公司基本上基於行政中立、政治中立的立場，還有在政策上我們不承接政黨還有涉及到選舉，或者是有……"],["黃委員國昌：所以政黨沒有、選舉沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：那我就進一步具體地請教，因為你們講得很清楚了，你東西都沒有提供給王義川，我們辜且相信，但我現在要進一步地問，不管是在北平東路的519，還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候，週遭所聚集的人群，到目前為止，中華電信從來沒有做過人群、客群分析？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從來沒有做過嘛！第二個，今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話，你們也不會出售？"],["郭董事長水義：我們拒絕提供這方面的服務。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們拒絕提供這方面的服務。我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題，中華電信裡面在過去這段時間當中，被媒體披露有非常多的綠友友，當然，他們是按照自己的專業還是按照政治關係到中華電信去任職，我相信這個社會會公評。我現在具體的問題是，從2018年以後到現在，中華電信有沒有針對，譬如說像選舉的時候的選前之夜，這一種人群的聚集做過任何的分析？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有，報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：從來都沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從來都沒有，所以從2018年到現在，如果有人手上拿到針對這一個客群進行分析……因為今天董事長說，中華電信從來沒做過嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：就我的瞭解，沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：如果有人手上有這樣子的人群、客群分析，他一定是偷偷的、非法的使用你們的data去進行分析，我這樣子的理解對嗎？因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["黃委員國昌：就正常的管道、公開的，從來沒做過嘛！現在大家在質疑的是什麼？有沒有私底下用這個data去做分析！所以我的問題很簡單，中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人，中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析，我的理解沒有錯吧！"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["黃委員國昌：如果有人手上拿到這個東西，一定是非法使用，對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！你說你沒有提供這方面的資料，我姑且信之，但我的意思就是如果有人手上有的話，那一定是非法使用，對不對？中華電信要有個立場，你們沒有做過這個事啊！如果有人背著中華電信的高層，董總不知道，私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情，中華電信絕不容許，一定是非法的，追究法律責任到底！董事長可不可以展現這個態度？"],["郭董事長水義：如果有剛才委員所提的相關個案，我們一定會查明議處究責。"],["黃委員國昌：好。最後，請主委，不好意思！再1分鐘就好。依照個人資料保護法第二十二條的規定，中央目的事業主管機關或者是地方政府為了要確保有關於個人資料保護，認為有必要的話，是不是可以進行行政調查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以，我們叫稽查。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！依照個人資料保護法第二十二條第一項、第二項的規定，它可以做什麼？它可以進入那個場所，它可以檢查或者是處分，它可以要求你提出資料，還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製，這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限，主委，我的理解應該沒有錯吧！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，我們基本上是用稽查的手段去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，到目前為止，你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請同仁跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請。"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，其實我們非常重視個資，NCC成立以來，至少我瞭解108年就開始每一年都要求做個資……"],["黃委員國昌：108年開始……"],["黃副處長天陽：就開始有做……"],["黃委員國昌：每一年通通都有檢查嘛！"],["黃副處長天陽：都有，對，舉例來說，去年大概在7、8月完成，今年我們也排定在8、9月陸陸續續要去看業者有沒有落實它的個資維護計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：我先確定一下，你們從108年就有做行政檢查，到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前為止來講的話，個人資料維護的部分，並沒有相關的裁處，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：我就簡單講違反第二十二條的法律效果是什麼，如果你拒絕配合調查的話，中央目的事業主管機關可以罰多少錢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前來講，沒有電信事業拒絕調查過。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我說依照法律效果來講，可以罰多少錢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就2萬元到20萬元以下罰鍰。"],["黃委員國昌：2萬以上20萬以下嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對。"],["黃委員國昌：還有第二十五條的各項處分嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後一個最關鍵的問題，請中華電信董事長，還有NCC主委，一併回答最後的問題。剛剛NCC說了，從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對個資進行行政檢查，這個行政檢查的檢查報告，NCC可不可以提供？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們回去提供，把它整理一下。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？每一年，從你們開始做到現在，每一年的行政檢查報告可不可以提供？"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下，因為我剛才講108年是我的認知，我回去再確定，我們倒過來，譬如從112年、111年……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛！"],["黃副處長天陽：好，是不是可以給我們三個禮拜……"],["黃委員國昌：看你做幾年，所有的行政檢查報告都交出來，可以嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：好，一個月。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們一個月裡面整理給委員這邊來看。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月太久了啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：剛剛講三個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：三個禮拜，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？可以，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的發言。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢；委員鍾佳濱、張智倫所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報；委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請列席相關部會及中華電信儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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蕭啟宏他聯合詐團的本事這件事情人神共憤我相信NCC也發出譴責的聲明"},{"start":42.293,"end":61.083,"text":"上一次我說針對第二類電信的部分被詐騙集團濫用我問你說NCC有沒有行政裁處你說要等到檢察官偵查結束你要進行行政調查才會裁處我相信應該主委還記得吧我們已經有裁處相關案件"},{"start":62.174,"end":85.592,"text":"來那2024年1月起訴了嘛那從我上次詢問到現在也經過一段時間現在採取的結果是什麼?針對飛速移動台灣卓域跟25電信那個平台處什麼時候採取的?採取的結果是什麼?因為我一直在查NCCR相關的委員會議新聞稿我都沒找到"},{"start":87.237,"end":109.379,"text":"現在採取的結果是什麼我們採取的是海峽電信還有那個那個是之前另外一個案子去年的案子啊早就處理完了啊我上次在問你的就是針對這個蕭啟宏擔任顧問這個飛速移動台灣卓越跟25電信嘛我上次在問主委的時候講得很清楚了你說你要時間嘛那現在採取的結果是什麼是"},{"start":109.599,"end":109.919,"text":"還需要多久?還需要多久?"},{"start":139.127,"end":166.659,"text":"跟委員報告二五電訊跟台灣卓伊他並非電信事業那二五電訊他提供的服務並因為下面的這個資訊是黑莓卡那二五電訊他並沒有是提供這種黑莓他提供的是黑莓卡並會提供電信服務所以變成的是說這都不是屬於NCC採取的範圍是嗎目前為止我們看到的訊息二五電訊跟台灣卓伊是如此你們那個行政調查報告還要多久"},{"start":168.001,"end":191.401,"text":"我們看過這個起訴書上面的這個訊息目前的為止是二五電訊他現在已經來中止跟我們匯值他的電信服務的重點對不起這不是我的問題啊你有兩種可能的答案第一個我沒有要做行政調查但這顯然不是主委上次給我的答案嘛主委上次跟我說你要做行政調查嘛那我現在的問題很具體行政調查什麼時候會出來"},{"start":193.41,"end":222.47,"text":"我們現在所了解的資料就是臺灣卓伊他並不是他沒有提供電信服務所以他不是電信事業所以在如果說調查完應該是目前這樣的一個情形所以你們沒有要做行政調查嗎請數位這個行政調查來講是說比如說這兩家還有沒有其他的比如說像黑美卡跟比特幣這個部分那這會涉及到相關的法律是什麼那我們要比如說是所以你有沒有要做行政調查沒有沒有這還是在處理當中所以還要處理多久"},{"start":223.49,"end":247.025,"text":"不是,要看處理什麼事情如果說比如說像那個行政調查裡面來講的話沒有啦,我請主委齁,再回去看一下我們上次詢答的那個有有,我們打詐司法裡面來講的話,比如針對黑命貓現在我不是在講打詐司法,這件事情你有沒有要做行政調查跟委員報告,我們現在已經針對二五電信去調查過他提供的服務行政調查報告什麼時候可以做出來"},{"start":248.462,"end":277.363,"text":"我們目前並沒有發現二五電訊在這一件事情上有違反我們電網法上面的規定所以他被起訴了但是沒有違法是這樣嗎沒有沒有他起訴違法但是違反相關的刑法的規定嘛那行政調查來講的話只是說我們當時有調查沒有關係嘛如果你今天行政調查的結果是他沒有違反相關的法律那也是一個調查的結論嘛那我的意思就是我現在不要聽你們講的白紙黑字的行政調查結果什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":278.806,"end":297.44,"text":"還需要多久?你說現在調查完了那你等一下可能回去就可以寫行政調查報告嗎?那你的行政調查報告經不經典型檢驗站來講嗎?我們一個月內給委員這邊一個月內齁好行政調查報告齁順便說明一下檢察官上面所點出來的事情齁蕭啟宏他協助"},{"start":301.107,"end":326.799,"text":"二五電信公司跟通傳會負責電信營運管理及中華電信股份有限公司人員接洽。跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?跟誰接洽?接洽什麼事情?在行政調查報告當中一併說明可以嗎?好來請中華電信董事長。中華電信這個案子事後有沒有去了解這一個詐騙的門神蕭啟宏後來跟中華電信的誰聯繫?"},{"start":330.97,"end":333.733,"text":"沒關係齁他跟誰聯繫聯繫的事項是什麼中華電信這邊可不可以提供一個書面說明"},{"start":347.292,"end":361.531,"text":"可以嗎?可以嘛,好那針對大家今天很關心的事情也就是說涉及到在不同的時間跟空間使用這一些電信使用人"},{"start":362.592,"end":381.202,"text":"不管是不是有去識別話因為你即使有去識別話 如果有ID做連結還是要回溯才能做比對嘛我想這個基本的commentary大家都有來請中華電信董事長5月19號的時候我發函給中華電信所以我要跟你們購買2024年5月19號在"},{"start":387.642,"end":416.583,"text":"北平東路的大型集會2024年5月24日臺北市濟南路、青島東路、中山南路大型集會你們產品裡面的人潮客群分析的這個產品那請問針對這兩場集會中華電信有沒有做過人潮客群分析我們沒有從來就沒有做過好那如果我今天要跟你們買你們會出售嗎我們沒有的話就無從出售第二你們可以回去做啊"},{"start":417.202,"end":444.499,"text":"第二 這個我們公司基本上基於這個行政中立政治中立的一個立場還有在政策上我們不承接這個政黨還有這個涉及到包括選舉或者是有所以政黨沒有選舉沒有好 那我就進一步要具體的請教就是說因為你們講得很清楚了啦你東西都沒有提供給王玉川嘛我們姑且相信"},{"start":445.259,"end":465.578,"text":"我們姑且相信但我現在要進一步的問是說不管是在北平東路的519還是我們在討論國會改革法案的時候周遭所聚集的人群到目前為止中華電信從來沒有做過人群客氣分析我們沒有從來沒有做過嘛那第二個"},{"start":467.045,"end":496.238,"text":"今天如果有政黨或政治人物主動跟你們中華電信要買的話你們也不會出手我們拒絕提供這方面的服務你們拒絕提供這方面的服務那我現在要問一個比較關鍵的問題就是說中華電信裡面過去這段時間當中被媒體披露有非常多的綠油友有非常多的綠油友當然他們是按照自己的專業還是按照"},{"start":497.54,"end":519.56,"text":"政治關係到中華電信去任職我相信這社會會公平我現在具體的問題是從2018年以後到現在中華電信有沒有針對譬如說像選舉的時候選前之夜這種人群的聚集做過任何的分析"},{"start":520.205,"end":521.467,"text":"從2018年到現在如果有人手上拿到"},{"start":533.897,"end":552.084,"text":"針對這一個客群進行分析因為今天董事長說中華電信從來沒做過嘛就我的了解沒有如果有人手上有這樣子的人群客群分析他一定是偷偷的非法的使用你們的data去進行分析我這樣子的理解對嗎"},{"start":555.677,"end":565.095,"text":"因為你說你們從來沒做過嘛就正常的管道公開的從來沒做過嘛現在大家在質疑的是什麼有沒有私底下"},{"start":566.229,"end":587.932,"text":"用這個data去做私底下的分析所以我的問題很簡單中華電信的董事長今天在國會告訴全體國人中華電信從來沒有針對這一種政治性的集會進行人潮分析我的理解沒有錯吧如果有人手上拿到這個東西一定是非法使用對不對"},{"start":590.078,"end":601.08,"text":"我們中華電信沒有提供這方面的資料對啦你說你沒有提供這方面的資料我姑且信之嘛但我的意思就是說如果有人手上有的話那一定是非法使用對不對"},{"start":602.489,"end":631.849,"text":"中華電信要有個立場啊我們沒有做過這個事啊如果有人背著中華電信的高層董總不知道私下偷偷用中華電信的data幹這種事情中華電信絕不容許一定是非法的追究法律責任到底董事長可以展現這個態度這個如果有這個剛才委員所提的相關的個案我們一定會查明役處究責好下一個來最後請主委不好意思再一分鐘就好"},{"start":632.949,"end":649.894,"text":"依照個人資料保護法22條的規定中央目的主管機關或是其實地方政府他為了要去確保有關於個人資料保護認為有必要的話是不是可以進行行政調查如果依照個人資料保護法22條的規定如果對於"},{"start":655.307,"end":679.732,"text":"本法所規定第一項第二項他可以做什麼他可以進入那個場所他可以檢查或者是處分喔他可以要求你提出資料喔還可以直接把那些資料予以扣留或者是複製這個都是我們給行政調查賦予的權限嘛我的理解應該沒有錯吧主委是我們基本上是用機場的手段去處理好"},{"start":680.612,"end":699.042,"text":"到目前為止,你們過去這一年對於五大電信業者辦過幾次個資的行政檢查?報告委員,其實我們非常重視個資,NCC成立以後至少我了解108年就開始每一年都要求"},{"start":700.103,"end":721.263,"text":"108年開始每一年通通都有檢查舉例來說像去年大概在七八月完成那我們今年也排定在八九月也陸陸續續也要去進行看業者有沒有落實他的個資委員會計畫我先確定一下啦你們從108年就有做行政檢查到目前為止沒有發現有任何違反的狀況對不對"},{"start":722.964,"end":725.646,"text":"所以我說依照法律效果來講可以罰多少錢?"},{"start":751.259,"end":776.594,"text":"2萬元到20萬元以下 2萬以上20萬以下還有第25條的各項處分最後一個最關鍵的問題來請中華電信董事長還有NCC主委一併回答最後的問題剛剛NCC說了從108年到現在每一年他們都有針對各支進行行政檢查這個行政檢查的檢查報告NCC可不可以提供"},{"start":780.12,"end":807.546,"text":"需要多久每一年喔從你們開始做到現在喔每一年的行政檢查的報告可不可以提供報告委員我們大概給我們三個禮拜確定一下因為我剛才108年是我任職啦那我回去再確定我們倒過來從比如說從2011年我們回去沒有關係啊你就從現在開始往前回溯嘛看你做幾年所有的行政檢查報告都交出來可以嗎"},{"start":808.727,"end":810.309,"text":"我們要一個月裡面來整理給委員這邊來看"}]}},{"id":"153471","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153471","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707e30b09ddb4a6c1a459c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be21080221c7f8cd8385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"13:23:21 - 13:30:17","影片長度":"00:06:56","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T13:23:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T13:30:17+08:00","duration":416,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1611,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（13時23分）謝謝會議主席。有請NCC主委陳耀祥主委，還有法務部黃次長，今天就沒有特別問數發部部長。"],["主席：請陳主委、黃次長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["游委員顥：主委好、次長好。在這裡，本席要直接就教剛才許多委員都非常關心、關注這次的議題，其實這次王義川提到所謂相關個資的洩漏，大家其實心裡都非常的擔心、擔憂，服務處也接了不下二、三十通的電話，大家也很擔心個資外洩，所以網路甚至有一個梗圖，就像這一則圖片一樣，當你發一則笑話的時候，可能連王義川都看得到；可能你發訊息給你太太的時候，整個笑話可能王義川都在笑。","我想要先請教一下主委，對於目前民進黨政策會執行長，是不是因為他的不當發言，造成整個社會在媒體的報導還有大家的討論之下，引起了軒然大波，大家對於個資保護，人心惶惶，你認同嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個事情讓大家對於個資的保護更加重視。"],["游委員顥：那是會擔心吧！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：擔心當然也會啦！"],["游委員顥：所以一個民進黨政策會執行長講這樣子的言論是正確的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：第一個，我們現在不曉得他的狀況，這個個案最終的資料、情況是怎麼來。但是如果是因為這樣的原因而引起對個人資料的疑慮來講，當然我們覺得哪些地方沒有做好，我們繼續努力。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，我直接請教一下次長，現在就是可能有兩種情況，一個是在切割王義川的發言，我們都看到，因為他那個發言明顯不當，其實也是非常不適任做一個政黨的政策會執行長。我想請教一下次長，您是法律專家，又是非常具有實務經驗，以目前來講，通保法第二十四條，包括在資料上面所提出的，以及個資法第四十一條，包括詐欺，他今天講的話如果是欺騙、欺瞞，在欺騙社會大眾，哪一個的罪責比較重？"],["黃次長謀信：這要看到他具體的犯罪情節是什麼，如果是詐欺罪，他有可能處到一年以上七年以下的犯罪。"],["游委員顥：如果是違反個資法第四十一條？"],["黃次長謀信：個資法可能就五年以下。"],["游委員顥：五年以下嘛！所以今天他所這樣子去揭露大家的資料或是個資，以及包括他講這些所謂大家的定位還可以作為交叉分析，這樣子是不是有違反個資法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，你講的已經涉及到這個個案了，因為事實我們不明確，所以我們沒有辦法就……"],["游委員顥：但是如果以這個態樣……"],["黃次長謀信：如果是明確的狀態之下，我們法律是有……"],["游委員顥：是不是違反個資法了？如果以他這個部分，在手機定位的交叉分析，他是充分擁有這些數據資料，如他所講的話，那他就是違反個資法的一個狀況嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們不要講這個個案，我們抽離這個個案，有沒有違反個資法的前提必須是我們個資法上所保護的個資，前提是這一個。"],["游委員顥：現在來講，他只有承認他資料哪裡來，或者是他今天沒有這個資料，就是變成一年以下或五年以下嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：看事實，看檢察官查出來的事實是什麼。"],["游委員顥：那就交給檢調嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。接著就直接請教主委，在手機定位的交叉分析，就手機定位這件事情來說，請問主委，這是受到個資法保護沒有錯吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是以數據來講，就不算個資；如果是個資，當然就會有個資法適用的問題。"],["游委員顥：其實跟主委直接提到，王義川他所講的，這些人跟原本的小草有去比對過，王義川說這個跟517在民進黨樓下那些小草訊號比起來也不同人，所以小草也沒跑，但是這一批人跟那一批人，就是上次在1月13日選舉前的選前之夜去比對，也沒有關係。請問主委，這叫做有去識別化嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：從他的個資看起來，他沒有涉及到所謂的特定的個人，但在這個案件裡面，我個人也比較好奇的是，他如何去比對的這個問題！因為一般如果是數據應用分析來講，比如這段時間跟以前那段時間，以前那段時間這個資料到底還在不在……"],["游委員顥：所以主委，我直接講啦！這種來講，就是沒有去識別化，所以你回答得也很為難、很無力啊，因為你要幫王義川辯護，你也點頭了……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有幫他辯護，我只是說……"],["游委員顥：你要幫他，你也點頭了，沒有錯。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是不是一個資侵害的問題啦！"],["游委員顥：對，這是個資侵害的問題。所以其實他這個很明顯的就叫做沒有去識別化，依照歐盟第二十九條資料保護工作小組來講，王義川在政論節目上所講的，他是絕對已經可以清楚讓社會大眾聽到他所提的言語、已經可以辨識哪些人出席什麼樣的政治活動，所以這個部分用去識別化來帶過，包括當初主秘的回復，那會查得出東西嗎？這要回復是很難啦！所以其實還是要跟主委講，剛才在審查提案的時候，其實如果三個月、兩個月，這沒有辦法讓社會信服，因為這件事情嚴重的影響到未來數發部以及行政院要通過打詐專法的部分。現在來講，看到定位就已經涉及違反個資法，未來甚至可以調到網路上面查閱網站的足跡，這些東西未來都是王義川他可以擁有的資料，所以這個部分是非常的誇張。","最後，我還要請問中華電信，有人跟我們辦公室爆料，說中華電信大數據分析服務方案來講，大家應該找中華電信當問責的對象，因為時間簡短，我在這裡直接提出，有人明確跟本席辦公室提到中華電信法律事務處副總經理魏惠珍是以前柯建銘的助理，所以說這個也是很玄啦！手機定位不同場次、不同群體的交叉分析，中華電信這個部分如何做好資料的保密？因為時間到了，我想這件事情因為有人跟我爆料，所以我想說還是請你會後再跟我這邊做個回復，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員的發言，會後再向游顥委員報告。","下一位登記的委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請張智倫委員、張智倫委員、張智倫委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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":[{"start":14.912,"end":27.371,"text":"謝謝會議主席。還有請NCC主委陳耀祥、陳主委、還有法務部、還有廠次黃次長。那今天就沒有特別問蘇法部部長。謝謝。請陳主委、黃次長。"},{"start":30.41,"end":55.636,"text":"委員好 主委好 常事長好那在這裡本席要直接就教剛才許多的委員他都非常關心關注的在這次的議題那其實在這次王逸川他所提到的這個所謂的相關個資洩漏大家其實都其實心裡都非常的擔心擔憂啊服務處也接下了不下二三十通的電話"},{"start":56.636,"end":82.903,"text":"他擔心的這個各自外泄啊所以網路甚至有一個梗圖啊就像這一則的這個圖片一樣當你發一則笑話的時候可能連王逸川都看到可能你發訊息給你太太的時候整個笑話可能王逸川都在笑那我們接著看下一頁那我想要先請教一下這個我們的主委那對於這個目前來講一個民進黨的政策會執行長那是不是因為他的這個不當發言啊"},{"start":83.943,"end":102.843,"text":"還造成了這個整個社會媒體的報導之下還大家的討論之下引起了軒然大波大家對於個資保護人心惶惶你認同嗎這個事情讓大家對於個資的保護更加重視那是會擔心吧擔心當然也會啦那所以說一個政策會執行長民進黨政策會執行長講這樣子的言論是正確的嗎"},{"start":106.298,"end":126.468,"text":"我們第一個我們現在不曉得他的狀況這個案的最終的資料情況是怎麼來但是如果是因為這樣的原因而引起個人資料的疑慮來講的話我們當然我們覺得應該有哪些地方沒有做好那我會繼續努力沒關係我直接請教一下市長就是對於這個就是兩種情況可能嘛"},{"start":129.789,"end":149.314,"text":"大家在切割這個王逸川的發言我們都看到因為他那個發言明顯不當其實也是非常不適任作為一個政黨的政策會執行長我想請教一下市長您是法律專家又是非常具有實務經驗以目前來講通保法第24條包括在資料上面所提出的以及各自法41條"},{"start":151.637,"end":159.217,"text":"他今天講的話如果說他是一個欺騙欺瞞在欺騙社會大眾的話哪一個的罪責比較重?"},{"start":161.713,"end":184.402,"text":"這看到他具體的犯罪情節是什麼如果說是詐欺罪他有可能處到一年以上七年以下的犯罪那如果說違反個資法41條的話個資法可能就五年以下五年以下嘛那所以說他今天他所這樣子去揭露大家的這個資料或是個資以及包括大家在這個目前他講說這些所謂的大家的定位還可以作為交叉分析的話這樣子是不是違反個資法"},{"start":185.602,"end":191.847,"text":"更為報告你這已經涉及到這個個案了因為事實我們不明確所以我們沒有辦法就但是如果我們以這個太陽的話是違反國資法的嗎"},{"start":194.895,"end":223.688,"text":"如果說以他這個部分他在這個手機定位的交叉分析他是充分擁有這些數據資料如他所講的話那他就是違反個資法的一個狀況嘛各位報告我們不要講這個個案我們抽離這個個案前提就是說如果有沒有違反個資法必須要前提是他是不是我們個資法上所保護的個資啦前提是這一關反正他現在來講他只有承認他資料哪裡來或者是說他今天的話他沒有這個資料就是譬如說一年以下或五年以下之一嘛"},{"start":225.213,"end":229.876,"text":"在手機定位的交叉分析、手機定位的這件事情請問主委這次收到個資保護沒有錯?"},{"start":242.962,"end":263.115,"text":"如果是數據來講的話就不是個資如果是個資比如說當然是就會有個資法的適用的問題那其實跟主委直接提到了王逸川他所講的這些人跟原人的小草有去比對過那王逸川他說這個跟伍儀奇在民進黨樓下那些小草訊號比起來也不同人"},{"start":263.795,"end":274.904,"text":"所以說小草也沒跑但是這一批人跟那一批人上次選舉1月13日之前選前職業人去對也沒有關係那請問主委這叫做有去識別化嗎?"},{"start":277.05,"end":296.756,"text":"從他的個資看起來來講的話他沒有涉及到所謂的特定的個人但是就他這如何其實這個案件裡面最我個人也比較好奇是他如何去比對這個問題因為一般來講的話我們如果是數據應用分析來講的話比如說這個這段時間跟以前那段時間以前那段時間來講這個資料到底還在不在或這個"},{"start":298.376,"end":318.76,"text":"所以主委我直接講啦就是說這種來講就是沒有去識別化所以你回答的你也很很為難很無力啊因為你要幫王逸川編你也點頭了我沒有幫他編我是說你也點頭了沒有錯各自侵害的問題對這是各自侵害的問題所以就其實他這個就是很明顯的就是要做沒有去識別化那依照歐盟第29條資料保護工作小組來講其實在王逸川在政論時間上所講的"},{"start":323.761,"end":340.409,"text":"他是絕對已經可以清楚讓社會大眾聽到他所提的言語已經可以辨識那些人出席什麼樣的政治活動所以說這個部分用去識別化來帶過包括當初祖密的回覆啊那會查得出東西嗎?這樣回覆是很難的"},{"start":341.329,"end":357.899,"text":"所以說其實還是要跟主委講今天剛才在審查這個提案的時候其實如果說3個月2個月這個沒辦法讓大家社會幸福因為這件事情來講它嚴重的影響到未來訴發部以及行政要通過這個就是我們打詐專法的部分"},{"start":358.579,"end":377.251,"text":"現在來講的話看到定位就已經涉及到違反個資法那未來的話是甚至可以跳到網路上面查閱網站的足跡那這些東西未來都是王逸川他可以擁有的資料所以這個部分是非常的誇張那最後我還是要請中華電信這邊那在有人跟我們辦公室爆料啦"},{"start":377.911,"end":395.262,"text":"說在這個中華電信大數據分析服務方案來講那大家應該找中華電信當問責的對象那我在這裡我直接因為時間階段提出那有人有明確跟本席辦公室提到中華電信法律事務處副處長副總經理魏惠珍是以前柯建銘的助理"},{"start":395.982,"end":413.633,"text":"所以說這個是也是很玄的那所以說手機定位不同場次不同群體的交叉分析中華電信這個部分如何做好一個資料的保密啊那因為時間到了我想請這件事情因為有人跟我爆料所以我想說還是請您會後再跟我這邊做一個回覆好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153470","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707dd987edbf2ca6fa259c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be252fb35bfe7c29c185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"13:14:57 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13:23:08","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T13:14:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T13:23:08+08:00","duration":491,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1550,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（13時14分）謝謝主席。麻煩幫我邀請NCC的陳主委，還有中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：請陳主委、郭董事長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位好。原則上在我們民主國家，一個執政黨的高層在一個公正的政論節目中所講的話，我們原則上是可以相信的，對不對？原則上我們是可以相信的。就是因為在這樣子的背景之下，我們國人才會對我們的資安疑慮產生這麼大的波瀾，如果不是王義川，如果只是一個路邊的阿貓阿狗講，不會有人相信這件事情，就是因為他的身分，然後在特定的新聞台講過這樣的話，才會有這麼大的討論。我知道NCC你們說有函詢三大業者，他們都說沒有提供任何資料。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們請他到會來做調查。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那我先確認一下，在不管他們有沒有提供資料的情況下，針對不同的活動去比對出席的人員有沒有重複這件事情，是我們中華電信一些去識別化，只給輪廓的一些數據所能夠調查出來的事情嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們功能上沒有設定，因為去識別化之後，你就沒辦法回溯，所以沒有辦法做不同場次……"],["廖委員先翔：所以就算有提供這份資料，應該也是沒有辦法做這樣子的判斷嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：是的。"],["廖委員先翔：所以這份資料的來源，絕對也……就算它是真的話，也不會是正常的、正式的管道來獲得，是不是？應該可以這麼來理解？"],["郭董事長水義：本公司沒有提供，中華電信沒有提供這樣的資料。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那所以說，在這樣子的情況下，中華電信有講說我們並沒有針對青鳥活動，或者是之前講的特別活動提供特別訊息的資料？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那我想確認一下，有沒有政府的單位長期以來有跟中華電信的機房來做串接，也就是說他們沒有跟你們提出申請，但是你們要無時無刻的把相關通訊的一些資料傳輸給特定單位，有沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，沒有。中華電信一切都遵照國家的法令來辦理，不可能做這樣的事。"],["廖委員先翔：包括國安單位、任何單位……"],["郭董事長水義：沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：也不可能無時無刻的去串接你們的資料獲取資訊？"],["郭董事長水義：絕對不可能這樣做。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那在假設王義川先生講的是事實的情況下，那我的推論就只有一個可能的，就是電信公司的系統被駭了，才有可能有這樣子的情況，不然你們想得出來有其他的情況，王先生手上拿的資料是怎麼取得的嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們不清楚。"],["廖委員先翔：你不清楚嘛！對不對？你們不清楚，那唯一的可能就是……但是他就是有資料嘛！唯一的可能就是中華電信的網路資訊，或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛！你們有沒有被駭過，有沒有辦法做事後的調查？會有相關的足跡吧？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們人潮分析的平台，從5月17號到5月24號之間，這裡面沒有任何的異常存取或使用。"],["廖委員先翔：這個平台應該也是一個整理過的平台，對不對？那原始的資料呢？有整理過了嗎？有去確認過了嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們的原始資料、電信的限定資料都只在中華電信內部，不可能外流。剛才有報告，其他委員有詢問，個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["郭董事長水義：個人資料一定是留在中華電信……"],["廖委員先翔：你們數據分析確認資料沒有被盜過？"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["廖委員先翔：那原始的、最基本的資料在你們中華電信的內部？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那這個東西有沒有被竊取過？會不會長期以來你們就被竊取，只是你們不知道？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們清查的過程是沒有發現。"],["廖委員先翔：有清查過最原始的資料嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：就剛才提到5月17號到24號之間，我們相關的資料，整個平台……"],["廖委員先翔：那是人流的平台，人流數據的平台，我現在講的是最原始的數據，最原本的data，你們有確認過了嗎？這個資料有沒有可能……大家都在講國家機器，有沒有可能某一個單位長期以來沒有經過你們的同意去竊取你們的資料？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，不可能發生這樣的事情！我們會定期做資安相關的防護檢查，所以如果有任何異常的行為都會被我們發現。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們確認你們最原始的資料，以及你們整理過的人流資料，長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動，都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性？"],["郭董事長水義：對，不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣一個狀況。"],["廖委員先翔：所以這就是一個很大的羅生門嘛！那你們有猜想得出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有這個時間去想這個。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有時間去想？好。目前唯一可能的是，在政論頻道上面，他的說法有可能是「唬爛」嘛，目前也有這種說法。剛剛也有委員問，現在NCC已經在調查了，其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字寫著「來賓發言不代表本臺立場」，我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視臺嗎？還是誰講的誰負責？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們還是會落實事實查證原則，並不表示他貼了那一張文字以後就免責。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就算是來賓，如果未來來賓在政論節目上面有一些虛偽不實的說法，電視臺應該也是要有相關的責任？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：主持人在主持整個節目過程，對於比如有涉及到可能事實查證的部分，這還是一樣，他有一個維持的義務。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我就尊重後續的調查。最後一點，因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛！剛剛包括吳宗憲委員，還有黃健豪委員都有提到，我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候，都會有定型化契約，裡面可能就有提到這個資料要不要提供，我們會去勾選，對不對？但是其實很多民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼，包括其實我個人，我也已經忘記上次在簽門號的時候，我勾了什麼。現在既然已經變成一個全國性矚目的資安事件，NCC可不可以請三大電信業者發簡訊給每一個用戶，告知用戶當初在個資的定型化契約是勾哪一個選項。如果我們要調整，我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改，這部分可不可以？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：以當事人的個資來講，就是有退出的權利這個部分，如果當事人對他的資料有疑慮，他可以跟服務的這些所謂電信公司要求，比如在這個部分可能有變更，那是契約變更的部分。"],["廖委員先翔：你請電信公司傳簡訊也不用錢嘛！對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們在個人資料提供的過程當中，我們設定default是，如果沒有勾就表示不同意。"],["廖委員先翔：是，當然。"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["廖委員先翔：好，但是我剛剛就講，這個東西大家都只是簽而已，大家不會去看，有時候可能也是服務人員引導就勾選，也有很多這樣的情形。"],["郭董事長水義：他也可以不勾。"],["廖委員先翔：就是服務人員會引導，所以就勾選了。那沒關係，既然已經發生這樣的事情了，很多人想要保護自己的個資，我也沒有一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶，但是至少NCC或者是三大電信應該要有一個公開的說明，如果我們的用戶想要取消相關電信足跡的追蹤，用戶可以怎麼做？是不是可以後續來做一個相關的聲明稿，讓全國民眾都知道來保障自己的權益？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：OK。就是當事人如果對這個有疑慮，比如他事後變更可以退出的這個部分……"],["廖委員先翔：對，三大業者要怎麼做、管道是哪邊？應該讓每一位用戶知道。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們來處理，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員的發言。","下一位登記的委員陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在。","請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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那在假設王逸川先生講的是事實的情況下 那我們目前可能 我的推論就只有一個可能了嘛 就是我們電信公司的系統被害了嘛 才有可能有這樣子的情況嘛"},{"start":162.506,"end":183.655,"text":"不然你們有想得出來其他的情況王毅先生手上拿的資料他是怎麼取得的嗎我們不清楚你不清楚嘛 對不對你們不清楚那唯一的可能就是但是他就是有資料嘛唯一的可能就是我們中華電信的網路資訊或是三大電信業者的資訊被某個單位駭進去了嘛我們之後有沒有被駭過有沒有辦法做事後的調查"},{"start":185.51,"end":210.373,"text":"報告委員,上禮拜我們有請專業的個人資料保護的單位主管跟團隊同仁調查我們燃草分析的平台從5月17日到5月14日之間,這裡面沒有任何的異常的存取或使用這個平台應該也是整理過的一個平台嗎?對不對?那原始的資料呢?"},{"start":211.38,"end":239.806,"text":"有整理過了嗎?有去確認過了嗎?剛剛委員我們的這個原始的資料電信的信令資料呢都只在中華電信內部不可能這個外流剛才有報告其他委員有詢問個人資料跟數據分析是兩件事對個人資料一定是留在中華電信對你們數據分析確認沒有資料沒有沒有被盜過嗎?對那原始的最基本的資料在我們中華電信的內部嗎?是那這個東西有沒有被竊取過?或是長期來你們就會被竊取你們不知道啊"},{"start":240.806,"end":259.978,"text":"報告委員我們清查的過程是沒有發現有清查過嗎最原始的資料就剛才提到5月17日到24日之間我們相關的資料有這個整個平台有那是人流的平台嘛人流數據的平台嘛我現在講的是最原始的數據最原本的data你們有確認過了嗎這個資料我們有可能"},{"start":261.311,"end":282.707,"text":"大家都在講國家機器嘛有沒有可能某個單位長期來就是沒有經過你們的同意去調取去竊取你們的資料報告委員不可能發生這樣的事情我們會定期做這個治安相關的防護的檢查所以如果有任何這個異常的行為都會被我們發現所以你們確認你們最原始的資料以及你們整理過的人流資料在"},{"start":284.506,"end":297.534,"text":"長期以來或者是針對青鳥的活動都沒有任何資料外洩的可能性不可能發生委員剛才講的這樣的一個狀況所以現在目前就是一個很大的螺旋門那你們有猜想的出來有可能是怎樣的情況嗎"},{"start":299.622,"end":322.12,"text":"我們沒有這個時間去想這個目前唯一可能唯一可能的那就可能在政論頻道上面有他的說法有可能是唬爛嘛目前有這種說法嘛那剛剛也有委員問的就是說我們現在NCC也已經在調查了嘛那其實政論節目在最後都會有幾行字啦寫說來賓的發言就可能"},{"start":326.403,"end":330.795,"text":"我們來賓發言不代表本台立場我想這樣子的文字敘述有辦法規範到電視台嗎?還是說誰講的誰負責?"},{"start":335.346,"end":362.933,"text":"我們還是會依照我們的若實事實查證原則並不表示說他貼在那一張文字以後就免責所以說就算是來賓如果說未來的來賓在這段節目上面有一些虛偽不實的說法那電視台應該也是要有相關的一個責任這個主持人在主持整個節目過程裡面來講的話對於這個比如說這個有涉及到可能事實查證的部分這還是要他有一個維持的義務好那我就尊重我們後續的調查那最後一點"},{"start":363.433,"end":379.243,"text":"因為目前這個案子還是羅生門嘛 對不對那剛剛包括我們的吳宗憲委員還有我們的黃建浩委員都有提到我們在跟電信公司簽契約的時候都會有定型化契約嘛那裡面可能就是有提到這個資料要不要提供我們會去勾選嘛 對不對"},{"start":380.123,"end":397.126,"text":"那我想但是其實很多的民眾根本不知道我們當初勾了什麼包括其實我個人我已經忘記我上次在簽門號的時候我勾了什麼嘛那現在既然已經變成一個是全國性的一個矚目的資安事件我們可不可以我們NCC可不可以請我們的三大"},{"start":398.343,"end":414.259,"text":"電信業者每個人去發簡訊給每個用戶告知你這個用戶當初在個資的定期化契約你是勾哪一個選項如果我們要調整我們可以透過什麼樣子的管道去做更改這部分可不可以"},{"start":415.02,"end":417.621,"text":"報告委員我們在個人資料提供的過程當中我們設定我們的D4是如果沒有勾就表示不同意是當然對"},{"start":440.874,"end":458.964,"text":"好那但是我剛剛就講很多人就說這個東西大概就只是簽而已嘛大家不會去看那有時候可能也是這個服務人員引導啊就勾勾勾也有很多這樣的情形嘛對不對就是服務人員會引導嘛啊就勾勾勾那沒關係我們可不可以既然已經發生這樣的事情了很多人想要保護自己的個資"},{"start":460.264,"end":474.217,"text":"我也沒有說一定要我們電信業者去發簡訊給所有的用戶但是至少我們NCC或者是三大電信業者應該要有一個公開的說明如果說我們的用戶想要取消相關的電信足跡的追蹤的話我們用戶可以怎麼做"},{"start":474.978,"end":489.095,"text":"是不是可以後續來做一個相關的聲明稿讓全國民眾人都知道來保障自己的權益就是說當事人如果對這個有疑慮來講的話比如說這個部分他事後邊跟可以退出的這個部分對三大業者要怎麼做管到是哪邊應該讓每一位用戶知道好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153468","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153468","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707ddde9bf60ce8530159c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be2077d9df624e048115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:48:16 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的這個足跡都被看光光了全民現在是很關注這個案子所以我請四位主管一定要非常注意這個事情這個事情有兩個面向第一個 凡走過必留下痕跡"},{"start":55.285,"end":78.738,"text":"現在是數位時代啊有的人說什麼王一川、韋禾蘭還是說什麼以後新名復生現在說誰該想到的現在這個數位時代到底他的資料哪裡來山大電信公司有做這個事情嗎這個摩薩德調嗎只要有做這一定查得出來對不對"},{"start":80.482,"end":93.014,"text":"陳志偉這邊法務部這邊一定查得出來 這樣大家閃不起啦這是第一個點 第二個他是一個客觀的事實所以我從一早到現在我聽到的都是"},{"start":94.233,"end":117.864,"text":"大家先幫三大電信公司先給他背書 啊 主委你找他來 問一下 他說沒有 這樣就 這人民相信嗎 他是個客觀的事實啊 所以法務部跟NCC NCC是主管機關啊 法務部要捍衛人民的權益啊 人民在怕足跡被看光光啊 你們有責任欸 是個客觀的事實 你們要去幫他查清楚 你們才對得起人民啊 是不是這樣"},{"start":119.165,"end":145.422,"text":"所以拜託四位喔包括保定好不好我們把這兩個前提先講了好那本席既然是客觀的事實我們就進去追進去追追追我給大家看一個我們辦公室啊在第一個時間點就擋了一種很重要的點位王一川不管你是維吾爾人還是他剛才講他在他的槌上面"},{"start":147.008,"end":159.807,"text":"他說他要介紹一種用了很久的手機信用資料分析方法右下角他說一間公司數據公司他說這間公司怎麼做?我說怎麼維護人?"},{"start":163.39,"end":191.167,"text":"好 那最真相啊 客觀的事實啊我們辦公室就打了電話給王逸川這個脆三面分享的數據公司跟數據公司通話 問一問題得到三個很重要的資訊來 那這位看一看他講啊資訊公司會得到一組代表這個個人代號的cookie第二 可以透過這一組代碼去分析這個人在這段時間的足跡第三個同胸部"},{"start":192.489,"end":220.175,"text":"他說一百兩折啊 一個數據公司而已喔他說他在比對不同的時間活動的不寵物人士的比例這是不是王一川說的一樣注意 市長 不定王一川他說他可以查得出來民進黨112選前事業跟民眾黨519小草活動跟524的清涼活動人流組成不同他說的是不是跟這間數位公司說的是一樣"},{"start":222.418,"end":248.826,"text":"好我再給他看下一張我的辦公室對話是這樣因為王逸川公有這間公司會做得到嘛對不對這個大家進他的槌查這個公司還查得到我的辦公室早日卡去他說啦我問他我要辦一個五月辦一段活動六月要辦一段活動那我能不能知道五月的活動跟六月的活動裡面的人有沒有重複你看這間公司怎麼說他說可以啊"},{"start":250.643,"end":275.878,"text":"因為他那個會有一個詞 這個類似就是廣告ID那個詞 其實他說會cookie啦 他說你透過這樣去做比對 你就可以知道出席者到底有沒有重複這個事情 我的助理繼續跟他對 助理阿們 他說這樣 你這東西會不會有個資的問題啊 我沒辦法理解啊 你如果是用電信的數據的話 怎麼會有cookie這個東西"},{"start":276.843,"end":303.687,"text":"我們今天可以到現在嗎?從王逸川開始說這個事情到現在,同時一個觀念是什麼?你們提供的到底是數據還是個資?沒有人看起來,叫這個公司說的,拿到是個資喔,是不是?這問題嚴重嗎?所以,市長,一個數位公司拿得到這樣的資料嗎?這是王逸川說的公司啊"},{"start":305.165,"end":333.968,"text":"要說的所有東西跟王先生是一樣的啊所以好啊查好不好部長跟諸位先回去先去查一下那提這個還有一個非常重要的重點就是在這三家數據公司不是口抽無憑啦不是說你說沒有提供就沒有啊我們請法務部跟NCC要去一邊查現在民眾都檢舉了嘛對不對要查嘛給人民一個安心的答案就是包括中華電信公司當時在這裡"},{"start":336.114,"end":354.867,"text":"現在會勝會贏啊,包括你進行什麼大數據的總監啊這個人民到現在都沒有答案拜託一下,你如果讓人民真的要安心你們一定要去把它查清楚好不好來我們再看畫面的現在有人在說到底違法違在哪裡你從各支法的第二條去看"},{"start":356.186,"end":382.639,"text":"他個資法定義很清楚啊其他得以直接或間接方式識別該人的這個資料都要去跟公司講的王毅昌講的就是嘛委員個資法第一條對不對再來他違反了哪一個法我們看一下下一個上一張看一下上一張個資法違反了對不對來下一張下來來再下來好所以我們現在要查的是什麼"},{"start":386.761,"end":406.373,"text":"他的資料到底是哪裡來的?如果三家電信公司都沒有做,怎麼會有這些東西?不可能嘛,是不是?那現在更恐怖的,我再給大家看,連一個數據的公司,民間的他都說他都拿得到,那這要查的是兩個方向囉"},{"start":407.961,"end":436.243,"text":"三家電信公司包括中華電信你給數據公司的時候主流有拿出來嗎你是不是真的做到你講的個資不出來你已經去了這個四白話這個都要查啊是不是這樣所以不是只有你直接跟王逸川或者跟民進黨那個中間那個中介到底是什麼這要查得清楚第一我們民眾黨已經去函給中華電信了對不對我們就說這段時間只要是王逸川"},{"start":438.092,"end":461.16,"text":"你都沒有嗎?還沒有收到沒有?其實同情會是什麼?有兩種可能嘛有兩種可能就是你們要去做自己客觀的事情自己要證實說你沒有中華電信沒有做過這樣的一個這個所謂的統計跟分析啦到目前都是口說無憑嘛這其實有法務部有那個NCC是不會查好不好?好"},{"start":462.428,"end":485.249,"text":"那剛剛有做了一個結議了嘛就是這段時間資料會進來那我今天質詢很重要的一個點就是不是只有針對三家電信公司客觀的事實要呈現有沒有中間、中距的這個數位公司一定要查詢這個好不好最後我做個簡單的這個總結不要浪費大家的時間來我們再看下一張目前發言人問題是什麼就是個人唯一的那個識別碼那Cooking或是Mac"},{"start":486.414,"end":498.25,"text":"IMEC這個有沒有可能被電信業者是外洩的這是一個很重要的這個侵害尤其他如果拿到之後他做一個交叉他就可以確認你的身份地位你的這個個人這個身份"},{"start":499.218,"end":506.602,"text":"現在我們來碰到一個很大問題我們的個資法規範不夠重視歐盟通用資訊的保護規則GDPR他早就納入保護的範圍全世界已經有50多個國家用這種規範包括日本、韓國都有我們為什麼沒有所以拜託注意你要回去進行"},{"start":523.131,"end":546.596,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"153467","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153467","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c70717707dc9c0dc0f7c59c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be209fd7804f724e0895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:38:46 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12:48:05","影片長度":"00:09:19","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T12:38:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T12:48:05+08:00","duration":559,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1332,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時38分）好，主席謝謝，麻煩請陳耀祥主委跟中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：請陳耀祥主委、中華電信郭董事長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委、郭董事長，其實到現在那麼多的委員關心以及人民炸鍋，最主要就是兩個部分，第一，這件事情透過現在執政黨民進黨的政策會執行長，在節目上講出來，我覺得這是非常令人毛骨悚然，我們來看一下他當時怎麼講？他說資料分析有些人是小草、有些是太陽花，太陽花是什麼時候？10年前，換言之，他所掌握資料是現在跟10年前的資料對比啊！再來說，用手機看他的年齡，他有辦法用手機看到年齡；還有，這些人跟原來的小草比對過，517民進黨樓下跟小草的訊號比起來是不同人，這一批人跟上一次選舉，1月13號的選前之夜對比也沒關係，所以他掌握的小草有517，有1月13號選前之夜的對比。主持人問，他說對基地台的訊號就可以知道，王義川先生想要講的是，透過手機訊號能分析。好，我知道，到目前為止，主委也講5月30號馬上找三大電信公司來，也都說沒有外流，中華電信郭董事長更是從一開始到現在都說個人資料都有保護。我們想知道到底這一些電信公司的資料，除了在電信公司的手上以外，還有哪一些公司有可能取得？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：第一個，如果是個人資料的話是電信公司，就是三大電信業者。如果是已經被去識別化以後的數據……"],["洪委員孟楷：看起來沒有去識別化。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是有去識別化的數據，除了電信業者以外，做大數據分析的公司，包括資訊公司、市場調查都有可能有這些數據。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是目前看起來是他一開始講的原文嘛！我們首重他一開始所講的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是後面……"],["洪委員孟楷：他所講的是沒有去識別化。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們也很好奇他這個說法，資料到底是怎麼取得。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，到目前為止，NCC的資料第3頁就有講，三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業、政府機關、特定黨政人士跟公司洽購相關的資料，公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊。公司沒有主動提供，也沒有被動提供，到底他的資料從哪裡來？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有可能從哪裡來？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個可能要問王義川先生才能瞭解。這個案子為什麼檢調單位在調查？因為很多資料如果要詳細調查，可能要犯罪偵察才有辦法處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，郭董事長，你們沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信提供的人潮分析、數據應用分析的資料都經過去識別化，合乎法令規定辦理。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們現在如果跟一般的民調公司……現在有跟幾家民調公司合作，可以提供去識別化的資料？"],["郭董事長水義：外部很多公司反而是我們的競爭業者，我們也會針對個案，像剛才所講的商業振興、觀光或者是交通紓解等等目的，協助部分縣市政府提供相關的資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個沒有問題，你要聽懂本席的問題，我在NCC的報告第5頁裡面看到，一開始我們質疑執政黨的政策會執行長的時候，執政黨說沒有，外面的公司都有賣，你看有臺中市政府辦的活動，新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料。本席現在想要問的是，他們的個人資料完全不同，更重要的是，你們現在都信誓旦旦說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天青鳥行動的資料。"],["郭董事長水義：對，我們確實沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止，根據NCC的調查，都沒有主動或被動提供青鳥行動的資料，對不對？那他怎麼能夠跟其他各縣市的資料比對是相同的？"],["郭董事長水義：我們不清楚他的資料，但剛才有報告中華電信遵守個人資料保護法、電信管理法的相關規範，所以個人資料絕對沒有外流，一定是留在公司。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛……"],["郭董事長水義：經過數據分析的輪廓分析……"],["洪委員孟楷：NCC主委，你第5頁的簡報是不是說三大電信業者有配合內政部，有配合新北市政府、觀光局，有配合金門縣政府辦相關活動……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是大數據分析。"],["洪委員孟楷：是數據，對不對？但是到目前為止，我剛剛有請教你，如果三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動的資料給任何人，他怎麼有辦法在27號的節目上講得這樣鉅細靡遺？換言之，到目前為止，就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講，到底有沒有任何青鳥行動的數據給任何民間公司分析？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有提……我再次強調，我有請同仁查5月17號到24號之間，我們大數據的人潮分析平臺，沒有異常的存取跟使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席的問題在哪裡，你知道嗎？是不是自始至終這個王先生在節目上都是唬爛？現在NCC給我們的簡報第3頁提到，現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供青鳥行動的資訊，對不對？你又看到第5頁說，如果真的有提供資訊，有這樣的數據分析，一定要有政府或是相關機關申請，才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他們有一些契約，有一些商業使用……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在講的是，如果到目前為止，三大電信業者說在這次的青鳥行動，沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話，27號他有辦法在節目裡面講得鉅細靡遺嗎？它已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題，是不是自始之終他根本都是在唬爛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個恐怕你要請教王義川先生。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是我請教王義川先生，NCC是主管機關，他是在節目裡面講的，三立新聞臺是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，已經有好幾個人檢舉，所以我們現在針對是否違反事實調查去處理了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，如果真的自始至終在唬爛的話，衛廣法可以開罰多少錢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那個是事實查證的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，事實查證的問題，到目前為止你說他自始至終可能都是不實的，我不知道他怎麼天馬行空，但是他講得好像煞有其事，但實際上它是新聞臺，要事實查證。如果這個新聞臺播出這種完全沒有事實根據的內容，他還可以講太陽花、小草、517、民進黨樓下交叉分析、基地臺分析，難怪人家說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果違反事實查證的話，最高可以裁處20萬到200萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：最高可以從20萬罰到200萬。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：20萬……"],["洪委員孟楷：最低20萬。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，到200萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以調查出來？我剛剛聽到委員有講，好像是3個月到6個月。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：3個月到6個月，我們剛才講……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會太久？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們一般收到案件的程序都是這樣處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，什麼時候會請三立新聞臺說明？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們這個禮拜會發函先請他們陳述意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個禮拜會先請三立新聞臺陳述意見。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候他們必須回復？"],["林處長慧玲：原則上他們要提倫委員會，以我們的慣例14天內他們要提倫委會。"],["洪委員孟楷：提什麼會？"],["林處長慧玲：提他們的倫理委員會。"],["洪委員孟楷：倫委會，OK，所以14天內他們要提他們的倫委會。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在看起來……"],["林處長慧玲：原則上我們之前是14到21天，因為這個案子大家都很關切……"],["洪委員孟楷：社會矚目。"],["林處長慧玲：我們會請他儘量趕快提。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席對任何人都沒有意見，但是如果是執政黨的高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情，當然大家心裡會毛骨悚然，這也是為什麼今天召委安排國家機器做相關事情的報告，因為我們很怕國家機器介入太深。我還是姑且相信大家今天的講法，但是如果真的是這樣的話，代表這中間一定有環節有差錯，到底是誰的問題？NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們已經……謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：再請NCC將報告提供給洪孟楷委員。謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言。","下一位請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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果有去識別化數據的話說電信業者來講的話最大數據分析的公司包括所謂的資訊公司市場調查都有可能有這些數據但是目前看起來他一開始講的原文對"},{"start":137.737,"end":161.951,"text":"手中都是他一開始最一開始所講的嘛他所講的是沒有去識別化我們也很好奇說他這個說法來講他資料到底是怎麼去取得好那到目前為止今天NCC的資料在第三頁的時候就講是說三大電信業者都說沒有任何私人企業政府機關特定黨政人士跟政府跟公司來洽購相關的資料公司也都沒有提供相關的資訊"},{"start":163.584,"end":180.002,"text":"所以公司沒有主動提供然後也沒有被動提供那到底他的資料從哪裡來還有可能從哪裡來這個可能要問王一川先生才了解所以說這個案子為什麼說那個檢調單位在調查就是這樣因為很多的資料你如果想去調查來講的話那可能要犯罪生產才有辦法去處理"},{"start":181.683,"end":208.128,"text":"國董事長,你們這樣子的一個沒有去識別化的資料有可能被其他公司掌握嗎?中華電信提供的人潮分析等這個數據應用分析的資料都是經過去識別化合乎法令規定來辦理的那你們現在跟,如果說跟一般的這個民調公司,現在有跟幾家民調公司合作是可以提供去識別化的資料?外部的很多的公司反而是我們的競爭業者"},{"start":210.987,"end":231.517,"text":"我們會針對這個個案然後針對例如剛才所講的商業的這個振興觀光或者是這個交通疏解等等這些目的然後協助部分的縣市政府來提供這些相關的資料這個沒有問題你要聽懂本席的問題"},{"start":232.958,"end":257.399,"text":"我在NCC的第5頁的報告裡面有看到嘛就是說這個也是一開始我們質疑這一個執政黨的政策會執政黨的時候執政黨的說法執政黨說沒有啊這個外面公司都有賣啊你看有什麼台中市政府辦的活動有新北市政府辦的活動都有這個資料啊那本席現在想要問的是他各資料就是完全不同啊那還有"},{"start":258.28,"end":286.15,"text":"更重要的是你們現在信誓旦旦都講是說三大行動業者都沒有提供當天親鳥行動的資料嘛對我們確實沒有對確實沒有好本席姑且相信三大行動業者到目前為止NCC的調查都沒有提供親鳥行動的資料主動或被動提供嘛對不對那他又怎麼能夠來跟這個其他的這個各縣市的這樣的資料來去做比對是相同"},{"start":287.677,"end":302.737,"text":"報告委員我們不清楚他的資料但我們剛才報告就是中華電信遵守個人資料保護法電信管理法的相關規範所以個人資料絕對沒有外流一定是留在公司通過數據分析的輪廓分析"},{"start":305.2,"end":327.614,"text":"NCC主委你第5月的簡報是不是講是說三大電信業者有配合內政部有配合新北市政府觀光局有配合金門縣政府有辦相關活動那是數據是數據嘛對不對但到目前為止我剛剛請教的是說你三大電信業者沒有提供青鳥行動給任何人那這樣子他怎麼有辦法說在節目上27號講的這樣鉅細靡靡"},{"start":330.898,"end":339.17,"text":"換言之到目前為止就我們的理解跟你今天的簡報來講的話是青鳥行動到底有沒有任何數據去給任何民間的公司去做分析?"},{"start":341.926,"end":364.438,"text":"報告委員,我們沒有提這個再次強調這個我們在我有下去請同仁查5月17日到24日之間我們的大數據的這個人潮分析平台沒有異常的存取跟使用本席的問題在哪裡你知道就是說是不是自始至終這個王先生他節目上就都是唬爛啊因為"},{"start":367.728,"end":395.084,"text":"你現在NCC給我們的數據第三頁的簡報是現在三大電信業者都沒有主動或被動提供輕鳥行動的資訊對不對那你又看到第五頁是說如果說真的有提供資訊要有這樣子的一個數據分析一定要有政府或是相關機關來去申請你才有辦法取得這種去識別化的分析嗎他們有一些契約啦有一些上來使用也要有契約是不是對"},{"start":396.044,"end":412.713,"text":"那我現在講的是說如果說到目前為止三大電信業者講的是說在這次清了行動沒有主動或被動提供相關資料的話那27號他有辦法在節目裡面講的那居信迷你他已經不是識別化或去識別化的問題了是不是自始至終他根本都是在唬爛"},{"start":415.015,"end":436.651,"text":"這恐怕你要請教王逸川先生這不是我請教王逸川先生的NCC是主管機關他是在節目裡面講的三立新聞台是不是自始至終播出一個唬爛的節目所以委員已經有好幾個檢舉說我們現在以是否有違反事實調查去處理是來主委你在咳嗽啊來主委我請教如果說真的自始至終在唬爛的話這個衛廣法可以開罰多少錢"},{"start":440.905,"end":457.382,"text":"那個是事實查證的問題是事實查證的問題因為到目前你講就是說他事實中可能都是在都是不實的嘛我不知道他怎麼天馬行空但他講的好像是煞有其事但實際上他是新聞台那事實查證如果說這個新聞台他播出這種完全沒有事實根據的"},{"start":458.143,"end":474.575,"text":"他還可以講的太陽花、小草、五一七、民進黨樓下、交叉分析、基地台分析難怪人家講說名嘴可以從外太空講到內子宮如果違反事實查證的話從20萬到200萬是可以採取的"},{"start":477.057,"end":505.1,"text":"最高可以從20萬罰到200萬最低20萬什麼時候可以調查出來因為我剛剛聽到委員有講好像是3個月到6個月3個月到6個月我們一般的程序沒有我們一般所有案件程序都是這樣處理好那什麼時候會請三立新聞台來說明我們這個禮拜會請發行一切先請他們意見陳述這個禮拜會先請三立新聞台意見陳述什麼時候他們必須要回覆原則上因為他要提輪委會所以以我們的慣例就是14天內他要提輪委會"},{"start":506.223,"end":513.43,"text":"提什麼會?提他們的倫理委員會。倫理委員會。所以14天內他們要提他們的倫理委員會。所以現在看起來"},{"start":515.299,"end":540.745,"text":"我們之前是14到21啦那因為這個案子都很關切社會矚目盡量趕快提對其實本席對於任何人都沒有意見但本席對於如果說今天是執政黨的一個高級黨工能夠在節目上講這樣的事情當然大家會心裡會毛骨悚然這也是為什麼今天召委會排說國家機器來做相關的事情因為我們很怕說國家機器介入太深"},{"start":542.23,"end":551.818,"text":"我估計還是相信大家今天的講法但如果說真的是這樣的話那就代表是說這中間一定有環節有差錯那到底是誰的問題我想NCC身為主管機關一定要查明清楚"}]}},{"id":"153466","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707a71519351f5dfd8359c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be2cb86a12d45e21ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:28:22 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12:38:38","影片長度":"00:10:16","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T12:28:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T12:38:38+08:00","duration":616,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1279,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時28分）謝謝。麻煩陳耀祥主委，還有鄭其昀副主任。"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["吳委員宗憲：以及郭董事長。"],["主席：郭董事長、鄭副主任。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：三位午安。我現在先請教一下陳主委，NCC主秘黃文哲之前有說「要鎖定到他的基地臺使用的人，他究竟是男是女，假設只是這樣的話，那這樣沒辦法識別個人，那就不在個資法的範圍內」，這句話你認同嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：個資法是保護個人資料，我們黃主秘所講的是在去識別化以後就變成所謂數據的問題，所以我們一方面要維護個資，二方面來講，就是數據利用。"],["吳委員宗憲：你的前提就是去識別化之後嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：主委，我先附帶提一個，我們今天是質詢，你是備詢，我們並不是法庭上的交互詰問，因為上一次我質詢你的時候，我覺得最後有一點不愉快。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是請你切記這不是法庭上的交互詰問。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：OK！"],["吳委員宗憲：你是備詢。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝。有關這個部分，我想你講的沒有錯，就是去識別化之後當然就不涉及個資的問題，但是我們就回歸到手機定位的部分，我想請問你，手機定位到底是不是個資法保護範圍內？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是手機的號碼來講，當然是啊！如果是信令相關訊息來講，如果可以直接或間接認定到、識別到個人身分的話，它就會變成個資了。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那我現在跟你講一下，我上次在質詢法務部長的時候有提到，其實國發會的函釋、包括行政院資通安全處處長他曾經寫過的報告，以及當天法務部長鄭部長他所說的，其實他們都認為手機定位應該是屬於個資法保護的範圍內。另外我再提一個案例，在103年的時候曾經有海巡署的官員在卡車上面裝GPS，結果後來被法院判決拘役五十九天，我想主委一定知道這個案子嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：嗯、嗯。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以即便裝GPS，知道你這部車子到哪裡都被認定是有妨礙秘密了，更何況今天我們涉及手機的定位，因為手機的定位甚至綁的是個人，像車子的話，可能是誰開的我們也不知道。另外，我要再提一個點，在司法上面調查的合法監控，不會對人群，只會對個人或特定的某些犯罪的人；國安局這次也說了，它並沒有把一些資料流出來；剛剛主委你也有說過，你說你不知道王義川的這個資料到底是哪裡來，你剛剛跟邱委員有這樣講嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果這樣子推論下來的話，我想請教一下郭董事長，這樣子中華電信是不是應該要大義滅親去對王義川提告啊？因為你看喔，沒有任何人可以拿到這些資料，從司法體系來說，司法體系不會拿到人群的資料，它只會拿到個案的資料，雖然非常的詳細，這我很清楚。第二個，國安局也說，它不會把資料給特定人或特定政黨使用，所以今天他莫名其妙的拿到這些資料，是不是應該要有人出來去對他提告、去釐清到底怎麼回事？或是他用什麼方式──駭客，還是什麼方式偷到這些資料？否則他憑什麼講這個，除非他承認他就是喇叭嘴、胡說八道。董事長，你有什麼想法？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們不清楚王先生資料來源為何？中華電信已經在上禮拜有發出新聞稿，也在這邊慎重跟委員報告，中華電信跟王先生沒有任何接觸，也沒有任何業務洽談，我們也沒有提供任何資料給他。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道、我知道，我相信你說的，我姑且相信你說的啦！但是如果他今天有用不詳的方式去取得貴公司的資料，那貴公司其實該提告就要提告，我想這個應該沒有問題吧？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有任何相關的事證說他是使用中華電信的資料。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我沒有意見，我是說，如果之後經過檢察官，因為檢察官現在已經分他字案在調查，如果今天檢察官查出來這確實跟貴公司資料有關的話，貴公司會不會提告？"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信嚴守個人資料保護法……"],["吳委員宗憲：你還是沒有回答我……"],["郭董事長水義：跟電信管理法，我們沒有提供任何資料給他。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！那有答跟沒有答一樣啦，不然我跟你講，你要是不懂得立法院怎麼運作，你去問一下你們那個法律事務處副總經理──魏惠珍，他以前是柯總召的助理，他應該很瞭解立法院的運作，我們希望你還是能夠表示，不然你不懂就去問他好了，好不好？"],["郭董事長水義：感謝委員！"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，既然你這麼講的話。再來，我想請問個資保護委員會的鄭副主任。"],["鄭副主任其昀：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請問一下，這些手機流量定位服務，這些個資的再利用是用什麼合法的方式釋出？你們有什麼合法的方式可以把這些資料給外面的人？"],["鄭副主任其昀：是，委員好，跟委員報告，如果說是電信業者的話，因為他們會有一個電信管理法特別的規定，在電信管理法裡面的規定是，如果要把這個流量拿出去給第三人使用，第一個，會變成要經過當事人同意；第二個，可能是要把這些資料經過處理之後，要做去識別化，讓第三人是無從識別的這些資料，也就是，不是個人資料才能去處理。這在電信管理法相關的法規是有規範……"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分可能麻煩你們要釋疑，還有補充一些資料給我們一下。"],["鄭副主任其昀：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請教，你有沒有主動告訴申請手機門號這些民眾，你的資料可能會被這樣拿去運用、拿去販賣，我們不要說流出去啦！你會不會拿去做正常的販賣、商業的使用？你有沒有在他們來申辦門號的時候跟他們講有這個風險？"],["鄭副主任其昀：報告委員，這可能就要再問一下電信的主管機關。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，我們這個行動寬頻服務契約裡面來講的話，對於在跟當事人比如說，他要申請使用這個電信服務的時候，包括它的處理、利用，還有這些相關的條件，在定型化契約裡面都會告知。"],["吳委員宗憲：那定型化契約有時候叫我們勾選一些東西嘛，對不對？通常我都是勾不要啊！定型化契約我看完都勾不要。"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，如果你勾選不要的話，就不會納入剛才所講，類似人潮分析那個東西。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝董事長！這個問題非常好，但我跟各位報告一下，今天我運氣好，因為我念法律的，我還有耐心去細看每個契約的條文，但是民眾呢？你一個定型化契約丟在那邊厚厚一本就叫他簽名，我個人認為這對民眾的保障其實不足，更何況你把他們的資料拿去販賣，那這樣子他根本搞不清楚啊！你的說明有沒有說明清楚？他到電信公司或是通訊行去辦了一個門號，就這個定型化契約一本丟給他請他簽名，勾選幾個位置叫他簽名，實務上都是這樣啊！問題是你能期待他們能夠把定型化契約搞清楚嗎？所以我不認為，你講這個定型化契約已經跟人民講過了，那就算數、就沒我的事，我不認同這樣啦！","最後我跟各位講一個，如果你們真的對於個資這麼喜歡研究，其實你們去看一下111年憲判字第13號，它在討論健保資料的時候，它其實有討論到很多東西啦！所以你們先去釐清一下法官他們對於健保資料是怎麼認定的，他是怎麼樣要求要去識別化，要完全切斷資料內容跟特定主題之間的關聯線索？這個就麻煩你們瞭解一下。","另外，在憲判字第13號判決有提到，如果這些資料被濫用，譬如說這次王義川的事件我想提告呢？我的救濟管道在哪裡？麻煩你們去研議一下，參考一下健保資料被濫用的話，被侵害人是怎麼救濟？你們是不是應該要去思考一個救濟的管道來告訴人民，尤其是這一次，假設最後檢察官調查受害人是200萬民眾呢？那我們是不是要搞一個團體訴訟來告中華電信、告國家，所以這部分麻煩你們釐清一下。我們覺得事情發生就發生了，但是我很需要的是一個救濟的方式，你把救濟方式告訴我，我們來告訴民眾，你們都有這個權力，如果你今天對於我的電信公司，或者是對於國家的管理有意見的話，甚至我可能要求國賠啊！好不好？再麻煩你們能夠研議一下。"],["郭董事長水義：補充報告，個人資料跟數據應用分析是兩件事，個人資料一定要根據國家的法令，所以絕對不會外流；數據應用分析是要去識別化之後，而且得到的是輪廓分析，絕對沒有個人化資料。但即使是這樣，個人可以選擇不提供加入人潮分析相關這樣的一個數據應用。"],["主席（邱委員若華代）：我們請郭董事長會後再向吳宗憲委員討論。"],["吳委員宗憲：你要照做啊，你不能這樣子搞啦！定型化契約簽一簽就沒事了，我跟你講不能這樣……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們會處理……"],["吳委員宗憲：另外我補充一個，這個事件沒有絕對，你說絕對不會流出去，我跟你講，沒那種事情。我辦過多少案子，駭客進去就把東西偷出來，不肖的員工把東西流出去，所以沒有絕對這種事情，我們只能盡力去防範。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：個資法也已經修正，我們會努力去處理這個事情，謝謝委員，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員的發言。","下一位我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴士葆","廖先翔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","張智倫"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.430343750000002,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.400343750000001,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.22659375,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.53034375,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.47034375,"end":27.419093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.718468750000003,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":34.118468750000005,"end":34.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.74159375,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.63971875,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.64596875,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.329093750000006,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.54409375,"end":64.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.79721875,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.92346875,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.22721875,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.80909375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.02409375,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.91409375,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.64784375,"end":76.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.49971875,"end":80.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.13221875,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.94971875,"end":91.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.84784375000001,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.52659375,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.20409375000001,"end":120.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.85784375,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.29909375000001,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.16659375,"end":131.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.87534375,"end":136.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.93784375,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.96721875,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.27096875,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.38471875000002,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.04284375,"end":150.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.97784375,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.73221875000002,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.11534375000002,"end":164.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.08534375000002,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.34159375000002,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.28221875,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.88846875000002,"end":183.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.05284375000002,"end":191.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.85846875000001,"end":186.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.41034375,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.68409375000002,"end":197.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.35846875000001,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.31596875000002,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.37034375000002,"end":206.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.93534375000002,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.63471875000002,"end":221.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.42659375000002,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":222.64596875,"end":222.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.25284375,"end":228.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.36659375000002,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.98159375,"end":244.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.65096875,"end":246.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.70971875,"end":248.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.80221875,"end":254.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.09659375,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.09534375000004,"end":264.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.52534375,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.22909375,"end":280.30784375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那有答跟沒有答一樣啦 不然我跟你講 你要是不懂得立法院怎麼運作 你去問一下你們那個法律事務處的副處副總經理啦 魏惠珍他以前是柯總召的助理嘛 他應該很了解立法院的運作啦 那我們希望你還是能夠表示啦 不然你不懂就去問他好了 好不好"},{"start":312.531,"end":335.127,"text":"那既然你這麼講的話那再來我請教我跟那個個資保護委員會的那個正副處長我將請問一下這些手機流量定位服務這些個資的再利用是用什麼合法的方式釋出你們有什麼合法的方式可以把這些資料給外面的人"},{"start":335.802,"end":337.043,"text":"這在電信管理法的法規是有多規範?"},{"start":363.342,"end":389.432,"text":"這部分可能要麻煩你們要示意或是還有補充一些資料給我們一下那我想請教你那你有沒有主動告訴這些民眾申請這些手機門號這些民眾你的資料可能會被這樣的運用拿去販賣我們不要說流出去啦你會不會拿去做正常的販賣商業的使用你有沒有在他們來申辦門號的時候有跟他們講這個風險"},{"start":391.089,"end":391.109,"text":"請那個..."},{"start":415.69,"end":437.443,"text":"報告委員如果您勾選不要的話就不會納入剛才所講類似人草分析的這個問題這問題非常好但我跟各位報告一下今天我運氣好因為我念法律的我還有耐心去細看每個法律的條文契約的條文但是民眾呢你一個定義化契約丟在那邊厚厚一本你就叫他簽名"},{"start":438.303,"end":450.536,"text":"我個人認為這對民眾的保障其實是不足更何況你把他們的資料拿去販賣那這樣子他根本搞不清楚啊你的說明有沒有說明清楚"},{"start":451.513,"end":477.435,"text":"他到電信公司去或是那個通訊行去辦了一個門號就這個定型化企業一本丟給他請他簽名都拿幾個位置叫他簽名實務上都是這樣啦問題是你能期待他們能夠把定型化企業搞清楚嗎所以我不認為說我講一個這定型化企業我已經跟人民講過了那就算數就沒我的事我不認同這樣啦好那最後我跟各位講一個"},{"start":478.716,"end":506.012,"text":"如果你們真的對於個資這麼喜歡研究其實你們去看一下那個111年憲判制13號他在討論健保資料的時候他其實有討論到很多東西啦所以呢你們去先釐清一下那個法官他們對於健保資料他是怎麼認定的他是怎麼樣要求要去識別化要完全切斷資料內容跟特定主題之間的關聯線索這個這個"},{"start":507.933,"end":524.384,"text":"你就麻煩你們了解一下另外在憲判制13號他有提到如果這些資料被濫用比如說這王逸川的事件我想提到我的救濟管道在哪裡麻煩你們去研議一下參考一下健保資料被濫用的話"},{"start":525.325,"end":549.231,"text":"被侵害的人是怎麼救濟你們是不是應該要去思考一個救濟的管道來告訴人民尤其是這一次假設最後檢察官調查受害人是200萬民眾呢那我們是不是要來搞一個團體疏通來告中華電信告國家所以這部分麻煩你們釐清一下我們覺得事情發生就發生了但是我很需要的是一個救濟的方式你把救濟方式告訴我那我們來告訴"},{"start":550.618,"end":566.537,"text":"吳宗你們都有這個權利如果你今天對於我的電信公司或者是對於國家的管理有意見的話我甚至我可能要求國賠啊好不好再麻煩你們能夠研議一下我要補充報告個人資料跟數據應用分析是兩件事"},{"start":567.037,"end":582.942,"text":"個人資料一定要根據國家的法令所以絕對不會外流數據應用分析是要去識別化之後而且是得到輪廓分析絕對沒有個人化資料但即使是這樣個人可以選擇不提供"},{"start":584.042,"end":603.312,"text":"加入這個人潮分析相關的這樣的一個數據應用我們請郭董事長會後再向我們吳宗憲委員你要照做啊你不能這樣子搞啦你說你覺得錢錢就沒事我跟你講另外我補充一個這個世界沒有絕對你說絕對不會流出去我跟你講沒那種事情我辦過多少案子派客進去就把東西偷出來"},{"start":604.383,"end":605.344,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲委員的發言下一位我們請洪孟楷"}]}},{"id":"153465","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153465","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707698e308283d2b7ca59c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be2771403a2bdfbe5105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:22:07 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主席請中華電信郭董事長好 中華電信郭董事長"},{"start":15.598,"end":15.618,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":35.071,"end":49.708,"text":"中華電信是關股背景那近年也投入大數據的分析過去有協助建置防疫監控平台請說明清楚當面對中央政府或是政黨有需求的時候能不能抗拒拒絕提供資料作為政治目的使用"},{"start":51.636,"end":71.643,"text":"報告委員,我們有關防疫的平台是在疾管局以及NCC依照相關法令規範的遵守下委託中華電信來建置跟維護的防疫平台那基本上這些都是合乎法令相關規定來辦理"},{"start":73.203,"end":86.163,"text":"至於您剛才所提的人潮分析這個部分我們是我沒有提到人潮分析那直接回答能不能抗拒提供資料作為政治目的使用我們不會提供政治目的使用的這個相關的服務"},{"start":87.079,"end":108.391,"text":"那王一川先生在節目上面提到手機定位還有分析那這資料從何而來有沒有涉及不法我毫無所惜這資料不是我們提供的不是提供那董事長也一直說到絕對不會外流不是外流外流是被動式的還是這是主動式的提供我們沒有主動提供也沒有被動的提供"},{"start":109.011,"end":134.907,"text":"也沒有被動的提供那據了解手機IP來判定足跡重複就代表未去識別化那NCC是在講外行話因為國人的質疑是王逸川先生用這個資料我們都在想這資料到底是從何而來那依照電信業者的看法只有可能是基於國安危安用途還有陳抗情資收集那可見這份資料遭到不法使用那也可能會引發國安問題董事長您怎麼看"},{"start":137.096,"end":161.992,"text":"我中華電信所提供的人潮分析都是依照個人資料保護法電信管理法相關規定在合法前提下所提供的商業性的分析應用目的是促進地方經濟還有觀光需求還有交通疏解等等這些有利於地方政府"},{"start":164.834,"end":175.52,"text":"是在電信管理法第17條第2項第7款規定中華電信應該要負保密的義務並採取適當安全措施那這一次有盡到保密的義務嗎?"},{"start":183.274,"end":204.142,"text":"那可不可以解釋為什麼對應到的手機號碼、號碼有沒有重疊這些都可以?剛委員報告中華電信的人潮分析相關的應用平台沒有違反任何相關法令我們沒有在這上面設定任何功能我們沒有設定這樣的一個交叉比對的功能"},{"start":208.378,"end":231.494,"text":"主委好,那這邊5月30有請到三大的行動業者到進行了解嘛那行動業者都表示不曾參與輕量行動的群眾進行相關的資訊了解那請問NCC判定業者有沒有提供資料的依據為何那當然是要第一個要他們我們這個是做成正式的行政調查第二個我們請他有相關的資料來事後補充啊這個才是做判斷"},{"start":232.831,"end":259.722,"text":"因為三大通訊業者都說沒有提供那對於王一船先生在節目上有透露主意您怎麼看這個坦白說我很好奇他的資料是怎麼來的這個我也是看電視才知道說怎麼會有出現這種狀況所以我們當時一發生的時候馬上要求業者到會去來接受調查去處理是因為王一船先生現在是說用膝蓋想的也太也未免太太汙辱國人的智慧了"},{"start":260.41,"end":282.348,"text":"那這樣子的話那個資保護是否不足發生爭議那這一次因為自爆監控群眾事件才公開那NCC處理個資保護的問題能不能公開透明我們個資保護本來就公開透明而且我們是依照法定程序去處理就剛剛跟委員報告包括我們電信管理法第17條還有我們個資法的相關規定我們要求業者來講的話必須訂定這個個資保護的那個維護計畫而且這個有經過國際"},{"start":288.353,"end":288.914,"text":"那我這邊先請那個我們的訴發部黃部長"},{"start":314.599,"end":338.769,"text":"蘇發部成立後,行政院資通安全處有將他的業務移撥至蘇發部。部長,您上任之後有沒有確認接手的電子圍籬作業系統有銷毀?我們目前沒有看到這個系統,完全沒有。完全沒有看到這個系統?應該是已經銷毀,你們完全沒有看到。應該已經銷毀。就是說我上任以後沒有人跟我做這個報告。那可以再提供相關的書面報告嗎?可以,我們再提供那個,再確認一下,可以,沒問題。"},{"start":339.189,"end":339.289,"text":"邱若華"}]}},{"id":"153464","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153464","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7078700494691005a5059c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be2250870e6442c78765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"12:13:34 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12:21:58","影片長度":"00:08:24","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T12:13:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T12:21:58+08:00","duration":504,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1139,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（12時13分）謝謝主席，我想請NCC、法務部跟中華電信一起上台備詢好嗎？"],["主席：黃次長、郭董事長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：陳主委，先問一下您的膝蓋還好嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：膝蓋應該很好。"],["徐委員巧芯：很好，那你可以透過你的膝蓋算得出大數據人流比例，以及賴清德總統的造勢晚會，跟519、527三場活動的小草跟青鳥的分析嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這應該是要用客觀的數據去處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：膝蓋算得出來嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：膝蓋應該是算不出來。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那等於說王義川最近在唬爛嘛！在電視臺上面唬爛，NCC有沒有相關的一些罰則？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果有違反事實查證，那當然會有罰則。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看一下PowerPoint，他當時一開始說他從分析的資料來看，而且他講到幾個關鍵字，他有講到基地臺、訊號、資料、分析、比對，而且他是比對三場不同的活動，就如同我剛剛所說的那樣子，我想請問陳主委，他這樣的說法有可能性存在對吧！因為我問過國安局長，包含是當時疫情期間的建置系統，還有包含幾位數發部都說這樣子是有可行性，只是很難取得，請問主委是這樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：技術上來講的話，當然有可能。"],["徐委員巧芯：技術上是這樣子對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：但是法規上要這樣做恐怕有困難。"],["徐委員巧芯：法規上這樣做很難嘛！當時我問了，2020年的時候因為疫情，NCC跟電信三雄一起建立了一個系統，那個系統照理來說只能保存資料28天，而且我問過，你們現在也已經沒有在使用了，那我要怎麼樣排除已經建置的系統沒有被拿去其他地方重新去做濫用？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們當時在疫情期間有三個，第一個就是疫調輔助系統，第二個是電子圍籬，第三個是簡訊系統。"],["徐委員巧芯：這我都知道，我想要問的是濫用的部分要怎麼樣去……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個資料我們全部刪除，我們也有去稽核。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以未來如果有需要，要整個重建才行是嗎？還是系統仍然存在，只是我們現在停止傳輸？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果未來有大型的，那可能要重建，因為每次……"],["徐委員巧芯：可能要重建？你要跟我講確定的，不是「可能」，就是這個系統是否還在？舉例來說，像當時已經取消數位身分證這個政策的時候，它的整個系統是保留之外，它還持續必須運作，但是計畫已經停止了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想要詢問這個系統是已經完全銷毀？還是我們現在已經不再使用？這是兩件事。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：資料銷毀了。"],["徐委員巧芯：系統？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：系統停止了。"],["徐委員巧芯：系統停止還是銷毀？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，資料才有銷毀的問題，系統已經停……"],["徐委員巧芯：系統怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：請那個……"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，資料在NCC的監督下銷毀……"],["徐委員巧芯：資料知道了，系統怎麼樣啦！"],["郭董事長水義：系統我們已經下架。"],["徐委員巧芯：下架？下架是指銷毀它還是暫時下架？下架是什麼意思？可以給我們一個清楚的定義，什麼叫下架？"],["郭董事長水義：就是已經沒有在我們的……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有再傳輸？什麼是下架？你講清楚一點，下架的定義是什麼？你這樣的說法就跟王義川那個膝蓋沒什麼兩樣，下架是什麼意思？"],["郭董事長水義：我們系統已經下線，公司已經沒有這個系統。"],["徐委員巧芯：公司沒有這個系統？所以如果今天又有疫情來的話，要全數重建？"],["郭董事長水義：對，重建。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我再問一下，我們看下一張投影片，我想要請問一下NCC主委還有中華電信，請問在521當天，你們有沒有協助在這個公民運動裡面幫忙他們去調基地臺？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，那天因為陳情的民眾比較多，我們有接到包括委員還有民眾……"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼委員？"],["郭董事長水義：立法委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：立法委員？"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：民進黨的立法委員？"],["郭董事長水義：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：然後要求你們協助增加基地臺？"],["郭董事長水義：還有包括一些我們得到一些……"],["徐委員巧芯：得到什麼？"],["郭董事長水義：外部單位……"],["徐委員巧芯：外部單位是誰？"],["郭董事長水義：我是說我們有得到一些希望我們能夠加強訊號，所以我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：誰希望？剛剛有講民進黨的立委嘛！還有誰希望你們加強訊號？"],["郭董事長水義：這個主辦單位那邊……"],["徐委員巧芯：主辦單位可以要求中華電信加強訊號，我們就要去配合加強訊號？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，所有的大型活動包括燈會，或是像這種集會，因為人多，所以電話訊號會比較壅塞，電信業者也不是只有中華電信，都會……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是只有中華電信，我知道啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：上面有寫嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：行動通訊基地臺……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以說誰可以去要求？誰可以去提出要求？用戶都可以去提出要求？需不需要申請？有沒有申請單？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：我今天如果辦一個集會遊行，那我需不需要向你填申請單？我作為一個普通民眾，不是立法委員的話，不需要？"],["郭董事長水義：我們通常對於人潮聚集……"],["徐委員巧芯：自己自發性的會去……"],["郭董事長水義：人潮聚集比較多的地方，我們會為了服務民眾方便的話……"],["徐委員巧芯：服務民眾方便，所以不需要……所以你只要隨機看電視，看到那裡在辦集會，遊行人很多，你們就會自己跑過去幫它增加訊號？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為這是客戶、用戶的問題，我們會要求比如說它提供的行動通訊要有一定的品質。"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼一定的品質？我的問題不是這個嘛！我的問題是，你是否看電視，只要看到有一個地方在集會遊行，人很多，你們自己就會跑過去開基地臺，幫它增加訊號嗎？需不需要申請？"],["郭董事長水義：跟委員報告，像白沙屯媽祖繞境，還有燈會的活動，我們都是……"],["徐委員巧芯：他們有沒有申請？他們有沒有提前跟你們溝通？"],["郭董事長水義：我們都是主動加強服務。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們主動去。所以這個人講的是真的，有電信業者，而且是三大電信，而且電信業者副總說，你們為了521的公民行動而調出更多基地臺確保訊號，這件事情是真實的？"],["郭董事長水義：我們確實有增加基地臺的布建，讓整個……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們再看上一張。所以大家才會懷疑嘛！所以大家才會懷疑這跟基地臺有沒有關係嘛！我知道這是兩件事，前面那是5月24號就有人講的，現在他在電視上講這個，不是膝蓋喔！是5月27號講的，所以大家才會懷疑是不是有被濫用，是不是有國家監控的問題嘛！最後我只問一下法務部，等一下，不好意思，主席再給我30秒，好不好？","我問一下NCC，你們剛剛在跟王鴻薇委員問答的時候說電信業者沒有販售資料給所謂的政治人物或政黨，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是說這個事情裡面……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是這個事情，我是說電信業者有沒有販售資料給政治人物？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：一般來講的話……"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛剛說沒有。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我說我們5月30號那時候查，他們說沒有販賣給政黨或特定個人。"],["徐委員巧芯：我是說所有的喔！不是針對21號的行動。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是商業用途，我請中華電信……"],["徐委員巧芯：來，中華電信講，因為不一定是中華電信嘛！所以我不想請中華電信回答，因為說不定它沒有啊！"],["郭董事長水義：確實沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，我直接唸給你聽好不好？我在選舉的時候就有收到某一家的資料庫，它可以篩選選區戶籍地、發簡訊，價錢多少我就不說了，而且我跟國安局質詢的時候，他們有回復我說，電信業者確實有做package去賣給包含政黨或個人，這樣子的情況，請問主委是可以的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，基本上你要看到底是電信業者，還是簡訊業者？這兩種是不一樣的。"],["徐委員巧芯：電信業者。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，電信業者如果數據已經是去識別化，不是個資的話，是可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：是可以的嘛！OK！所以嘛，你剛剛回答鴻薇委員就不對了嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我剛剛講的是這一次，比如說……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你話要講清楚嘛！那我也告訴你，我們也已經具名再檢舉一次王義川先生在網路上面的言論。以上，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員。接下來邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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忙他們去吊雞地台報告委員那天因為陳情的民眾比較多我們有接到包括這個委員還有這個什麼委員"},{"start":243.238,"end":267.609,"text":"立法委員民進黨的立法委員是的然後要求你們協助增加基地台還有包括一些我們得到的一些外部單位外部單位是誰我是說我們在現得到一些希望說我們能夠加強訊號誰希望剛剛有講民進黨的立委嗎還有誰希望你們加強訊號"},{"start":271.7,"end":298.589,"text":"主辦單位可以要求中華電信加強訊號我們就要去配合加強訊號那個所有大型活動包括燈會或是像這種集會因為他的人多所以他的電話訊號都會比較用塞所以電信業者也不是只有中華電信不是只有中華電信我知道啊上面有寫嘛那所以說誰可以去要求誰可以去提出要求貨物戶都可以去提出要求需不需要申請"},{"start":300.089,"end":327.657,"text":"有沒有申請單沒有那我今天如果辦一個集會遊行那我需不需要向你填申請單我作為一個普通民眾不是立法委員的話不需要我們通常對於人潮聚集自己自發性的會去人潮聚集比較多的地方我們會為了服務民眾方便的話服務民眾方便所以不需要所以你只要就是隨機看電視看到說那裡在辦集會遊行人很多你們就會自己跑過去幫他增加訊號"},{"start":328.877,"end":357.716,"text":"如果因為這個是客戶用戶的問題我們會要求他的提比如說他提供這個所謂行動通訊要有一定的品質什麼一定的品質我的問題不是這個嘛我問題是你是否看電視只要看到有一個地方集會遊行人很多你們自己就會跑過去開基地台幫他增加訊號嗎局部需要申請嗎跟委員報告像這個媽祖遶境白沙屯媽祖遶境還有燈會的活動他們有沒有申請他們有沒有提前跟你們溝通"},{"start":358.576,"end":360.337,"text":"我們確實有這個增加這個基地台的部件讓整個這個好我們再看上一張"},{"start":384.835,"end":413.72,"text":"所以大家才會懷疑嘛所以大家才會懷疑說這跟基地台有沒有關係嘛前面那個是5月2...我知道這是兩件事前面那是5月24號就有人講的現在他講這個在電視上講不是膝蓋喔是5月27號講的所以大家才會懷疑說是不是有被濫用是不是有國家監控的問題嘛最後我只問一下這個法務部好我...等一下等一下不好意思主席再給我30秒好不好我問一下那個NCC齁"},{"start":414.54,"end":431.329,"text":"就是說你們剛剛講說業者跟網紅位委員在問答的時候說業者沒有電信業者沒有販售資料給這個所謂的政治人物或政黨是不是就是說這個事情裡面不是這個事情我是說電信業者有沒有販售資料給政治人物"},{"start":431.949,"end":443.839,"text":"一般來講的話你剛剛說沒有沒有沒有我說我們5月30日那時候查他們說沒有放給發賣給政黨或特定個人不是是說所有的喔就是不是針對這個21號的行動來中華電信講因為不一定是中華電信嘛所以我不想請中華電信回來因為說不定他沒有啊來我直接唸給你聽好不好"},{"start":453.166,"end":473.721,"text":"我在選舉的時候就有收到某一家的資料庫他可以篩選選區戶集地發簡訊價錢多少我就不說了而且我跟國安局質詢的時候他們有回復我說電信業者確實有做package去賣給包含是政黨或個人但這樣子的情況請問主委是可以的嗎"},{"start":474.782,"end":476.983,"text":"王毅川先生在網路上面的言論以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153463","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153463","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707ecc0261ce12327e059c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be26075f793af8843da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"12:03:38 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12:13:20","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T12:03:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T12:13:20+08:00","duration":582,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時3分）謝謝主席，是不是請NCC陳主委？"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["陳委員雪生：法務部黃次長還有中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：法務部黃次長，來。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員早。"],["陳委員雪生：各位早，本席今天這個會議的主題把它定為國家機器有它的道理，副院長說這個定得重了一點，因為王義川執行長是民進黨很重要的一個幹部，跟整個選舉的國家機器扯在一起，所以我才定為國家機器。我想請問一下法務部黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：檢察官已經主動分案偵辦調查嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員雪生：這是社會那麼重視的案子，應該大張旗鼓，是不是？要兵分三路、兵分四路嘛！去查三大業者有沒有做這樣的行為。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這涉及到我們偵查不公開這個最重要的原則……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，你們常常都在公開，講的是偵查不公開，可是在電視裡面你看看哪一樣不公開的？每一樣都公開啊！甚至是多少錢交保。"],["黃次長謀信：偵辦案件偵查不公開是檢察官最基本的要求。"],["陳委員雪生：你說是最基本的，我說是最不基本的要求，哪一件不公開？你講！有不公開的案子嗎？你舉例說明，每一件都公開，公開得乾乾淨淨，那我是覺得應該兵分三路、兵分八路，應該去包抄嘛！你們有傳訊過王義川執行長嗎？我看電視報導也沒有，他是那麼重要的一個人，如果有傳訊的話，電視一定有很大的報導啊！是不是？各新聞媒體都以頭版頭條報導出來啦！可是沒有啊！沒看到啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於目前進行什麼樣的偵查作為，老實講，我並不清楚，除非該地檢署主動發布新聞稿，要不然外界是不清楚的。"],["陳委員雪生：當然以你職掌的範圍，你可以這麼講。我覺得地檢署查到現在沒有任何的訊息，很像真的是偵查不公開，我看也不了了之啦！這件事情我看是雲淡風輕、若無其事。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這是一個社會矚目的案件，檢察官不可能如同委員剛剛講的那樣，他會依照證據來認定。"],["陳委員雪生：好，次長請回。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：我要問一下中華電信的郭董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：你們國際分公司的副總陳建志是從哪裡調來的？目前國際分公司的副總是從我們立法院過去的，之前是助理，是政治任命的喔！在企通處擔任協理，到現在是國際分公司的副總經理，也是廣義的公務員，你知不知道我們立法院柯總召的助理，還有很多的助理跑到你們中華電信去，都是高官任用，你們知道嗎？董事長，你知道嗎？甚至包含你本人都有可能是這樣喔！我是覺得這非常的可怕，因為政黨屬性不同，就會做其他各種的服務，那大數據有買賣嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，那個大數據人潮分析的部分是在去識別化之後，依照個人資料保護法、電信管理法等相關法令，在遵循這些法令之下合法的去進行數據的分析提供的。"],["陳委員雪生：分公司的副總退休了嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：在職。"],["陳委員雪生：離任了沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：在職。"],["陳委員雪生：我在不只4年以前，在總統選舉的時候，我看過這樣的大數據的東西，有電信業者找我們立委問：你要不要分析你的票有多少？這上面有散布在臺灣整個島的很多點，有綠的點，有藍的點，分布得很密，我看過這個東西，有人來跟我推銷，因為我的選區不需要這個東西，我的選區的選票都在我的腦袋裡面，藍的在哪裡、綠的在哪裡、不是我的票在哪裡，我通通都知道，我自己知道，我不是像你們的大數據，我的腦袋裡面是我的大數據。所以我要問你對大數據這個東西是不是可以買賣？"],["郭董事長水義：在我們法規允許下所進行的商業服務……"],["陳委員雪生：對，你們講的都是依法講話，都是依法講話、依法行政。"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["陳委員雪生：最可怕的是什麼呢？我是執政黨的某一個人，我跟你要個資料，你能夠不給嗎？一定給嘛！是不是？郭董，我跟你熟的話，就請你把什麼資料偷偷給我一下。"],["郭董事長水義：委員不會跟我……"],["陳委員雪生：我為什麼講是國家機器？今天講到王義川執行長，像柯建銘總召，我相信也是國家機器，是不是？他向你們要東西有什麼困難嗎？沒有困難的，既然都可以買賣了，我們也可以談不買賣嘛！是不是這樣？"],["郭董事長水義：委員不會跟我索取這些不合法的、我們依法不能提供的資料。"],["陳委員雪生：那當然啦！我向你索取的都是合法的，你能夠給我的東西也是合法的，你會講不合法嗎？那不可能嘛！所以我剛才才在講，就算打死你，你也不會招供啦！是不是？還有，在這個事情發生以後，你有去向你的下屬單位調查到底有沒有發生這個事情嗎？有沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我有調查。"],["陳委員雪生：調查的資料在哪裡？"],["郭董事長水義：我們請同仁調查的結果……"],["陳委員雪生：調查的結果怎麼樣？"],["郭董事長水義：這個大數據人潮分析的平臺在5月17號到24號之間，沒有任何異常的使用跟存取。"],["陳委員雪生：好，他們是怎麼跟你回報的？他一定講：報告董事長，我們底下都是依法行政，絕對不會有這種狗屁倒灶的事情，是不是這樣報告？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我是請我們個人資料保護的單位去調查大數據單位的這個事情。"],["陳委員雪生：NCC的主委也一樣嘛！陳主委，你底下的人一定跟你講：我們都依法行政。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那當然，本來就要落實依法行政。"],["陳委員雪生：他們是不是這樣報告？所以我講雲淡風輕嘛！沒事啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們還是要經過調查才有辦法去下結論。"],["陳委員雪生：我是覺得你把這個大數據這樣子……你可以講買賣，有買賣也可以不買賣啊！買賣有公開的、有私底下的，有公的、有私的，什麼方式都有啊！我確認王義川執行長他不是詐騙集團，我確認他不是詐騙集團，他是真的，我告訴你，他的數據是有本的，他的數據一定有來源的，而這個來源我高度懷疑就是由你們中華電信的大數據出去的。我懷疑是這樣，我懷疑啦，我不敢肯定啦，因為我今天懷疑如果有資料的話，我早就拿出來了。查到現在很像根本都沒有查出什麼東西，王義川執行長也老神在在，你問我，我是用膝蓋想的，就跟我剛才講的一樣，我用大腦想的，這個道理是一樣的，所以這個怎麼查？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，再次強調，5月17號到24號之間，我們大數據的人潮分析平臺資料庫裡面，沒有任何異常的存取跟使用。"],["陳委員雪生：所以剛才我們蔡其昌副院長講說，我們執政黨講的是人權，嘴巴是講人權，肚子裡面是講人權嗎？不是這麼回事啊！你們現在去打開……NCC你把電視打開，藍的電視臺就是藍的電視臺，藍的電視臺不會去講綠的一句好話，綠的所有電視臺也絕對不會去讚美藍的政治人物，一句好話都沒有，不要講一句啦！半句都沒有，就是壞！臺灣的人民那麼善良，我最近想移民了，我從來沒有這個想法，在這裡晚上可以吃米粉湯、油豆腐，多愉快啊！穿著拖鞋出去治安也很好，我為什麼想移民？不怕死的年輕人一堆啊！跟老共要打仗是不是？那個電視每天報導的，你們沒有責任嗎？NCC沒有責任嗎？這個電視臺叫它關門嘛，關個幾家嘛，不准再講什麼藍的壞話，也不准講綠的壞話，電視節目水準稍微高一點好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們盡力來提升，本來就是說……"],["陳委員雪生：你7月份就要走人了，怎麼盡力？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：本來NCC就是一個制度，鐵打的衙門流水的官，官員會離開，但我們還是會去處理。"],["陳委員雪生：NCC的官員也有很多在這邊，我拜託大家，我們共同努力，真的，臺灣不是這個樣子，臺灣沒有那麼善良了啦，臺灣真的已經很邪惡、很罪惡感了。立法院在開會，讓立法委員要出去卻害怕能不能走出這個立法院，這什麼話嘛！你說說看！這是個民主國家嗎？你到大陸去看看、你到大陸去看看，有這樣的事嗎？走出去很安全啊！殺人就馬上槍斃，就這麼回事，我們這裡殺人死刑犯還可以待個二、三十年，在裡面吃牢飯，很舒服、很愉快耶！還有人照顧他們，跟養老院一樣，可以嗎？好不好？我們大家共勉，謝謝！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生召委。現在請徐巧芯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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對不對所以他到底是監控王還是唬爛王?"},{"start":290.359,"end":299.878,"text":"基本上來講我們從三大電信業所調查的資料來講目前並沒有資料比如說給這個王一川先生所以你看起來覺得他比較像後者是胡亂王嗎?"},{"start":301.382,"end":322.799,"text":"是不是這種情況來講我們後面查因為我們還要進行一個調查跟電信業者去查那你待多久可以告訴我們大家他到底是監控王還是火浪王我們會請那個業者還有請當事人來講就這個兩個禮拜內可不可以我們已經我們一直流程上來講不好意思我請我們的內部副處長跟委員報告一下可以趕快告訴我們一下時間齁因為我不要耽誤"},{"start":324.096,"end":324.276,"text":"幾個月嗎?幾個月?"},{"start":341.049,"end":341.59,"text":"王鴻薇委員"}]}},{"id":"153461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707d51d62875cbab23b59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c51d9cde2851d34635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:50:10 - 11:57:11","影片長度":"00:07:01","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T11:50:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T11:57:11+08:00","duration":421,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":983,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時50分）主席，有請數發部、NCC、法務部，還有中華電信。"],["主席：好，各位請。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：斯斯有兩種，王義川也有兩個，一個是天眼局的王義川，非常厲害，可以透過手機比對太陽花、小草、民進黨選前之夜跟青鳥活動裡面的年齡跟重複度以及他的移動，非常厲害，天眼局一流的。第二個是膝蓋局局長，也是王義川，因為他說這些所有東西都是用膝蓋想的。這兩個──天眼局跟膝蓋局的王義川，其中一個在說謊。","我想請教一下法務部次長，今天如果是天眼局，假設王義川沒有正當法律授權取得未識別化的群眾資料，用於政治偵防跟群眾運動的數據分析，請問這樣是不是構成所謂通訊監察保障法以及個人資料保護法等法規的違反？有沒有這個疑慮？"],["黃次長謀信：我不要講個案，從通案上、從法律上來講，他如果違反我們通保法或個資法的相關規定的話，當然會構成相關的刑責。"],["羅委員智強：所以現在已經接案偵查了嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：這個個案已經在偵辦了。"],["羅委員智強：什麼時候開始辦的？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，529才分案。"],["羅委員智強：529分案，今天第幾天了？第5天？"],["黃次長謀信：對，第5天。"],["羅委員智強：好，如果說今天真的涉及這些所謂的未識別化資訊，就有違法的疑慮，你不講個案講通案，我想問你，如果王義川是用膝蓋想的，有沒有違法？我膝蓋想的啊！我的膝蓋很厲害啊！我用膝蓋想的，這樣有沒有違法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這其實就是個案了，你已經講到個人，那就是個案。"],["羅委員智強：膝蓋，我想不出違什麼法啦，可是你知道我要問的問題是什麼嗎？第5天了，我想請問現在檢察機關的證據保全行動在哪裡？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，剛剛也有委員提到類似的問題，其實個案上檢察官偵辦的證據保全，我不便問，在這邊也不便……"],["羅委員智強：我直接告你啦，你不便問，我曾經也被檢方約談過，只要一約談，本身就是一個新聞啦，請問王義川約談了沒？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我目前沒有這方面的訊息。"],["羅委員智強：沒有這方面的訊息？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：我也沒看到啦！更不要說今天王義川身上是不是有相關的資料，需要進行資料保全必要的一些法律行動，有沒有做你也不知道？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我不應該知道。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，根本沒做啦！至少到目前為止沒看到啦！王義川活蹦亂跳啦！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員智強：我問一下次長，我想請教你，王義川現在從所謂的天眼局改口變成膝蓋局，這不就是空中串供嗎？他現在開始串說法、改說法啊！後面膝蓋局這種用膝蓋想的，他就是在迴避他的法律責任嘛！可是今天我沒有看到檢察機關有任何積極行動啦。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，檢察官在蒐證，供述證據當然是重要證據，但是非供述證據的蒐集也是……"],["羅委員智強：唉啊，供述證據跟非供述證據，如果遇到羅智強都辦啦，遇到王義川就會有分別啦，我懂啦，為什麼？因為他今天是民進黨中央政策會執行長，他今天是民進黨不分區立委的候補人選，辦案如果照這種狀況，證據沒有保全，王義川早就把資料滅證了啦，還等到你今天檢察官去查，我沒有看到任何證據保全的積極行動啊！","接下來我要請教中華電信董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：董事長，我想請教您，請問王義川到底要如何用手機去辨別太陽花、所謂的小草，還有民進黨選前之夜跟青鳥活動裡面的人的重疊度以及年齡跟性別，如何比對？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，我們不清楚他怎麼做的。"],["羅委員智強：不清楚？來，主委，你們的報告裡面已經寫了，一定要取得電信業者的基地臺服務用戶號碼以及帳務、客戶資料庫的資料進行交叉比對嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果要確認一個人的話，一定要這樣去處理。"],["羅委員智強：答對了，所以是有方法可以做，對不對？但是你們不肯做而已嘛，對不對？你的說法是這樣，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：技術上可以，但這是法規上可不可以的問題。"],["羅委員智強：董事長，我告訴你，中華電信要慚愧了啦，因為我們現在的新科技工具，不用這些方法，你知道用什麼方法就可以做到嗎？不用什麼帳務、客戶資料庫，也不用基地臺服務用戶號碼，不需要，你知道用什麼超級無敵的AI武器就可以做到？你知道是什麼東西嗎？你知道嗎？你當然不知道，我告訴你，趕快去找王義川，他的膝蓋做得到！他的膝蓋做得到啦！今天我也要特別講，我還是肯定，我真的難得肯定我們陳耀祥主委，到目前為止沒有護航王義川，但是你也不願意好好地把資料交出來。現在民進黨政府，包括國安局、調查局、NCC，你們全都不肯做這種事情嘛，你們會做嗎？會不會做？主委，你會去政治偵防群眾資料交叉比對，今天……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們依法不可以做的我們就不會做。"],["羅委員智強：答對了嘛，我就是要你這句話嘛！顯然就是違法！依法就是不能做！我也問過法務部，也是依法不能做啊，不是嗎？沒錯吧？法務部有沒有要改口？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，當然要依法處理。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，國安局也也切割了啊，可到現在為止，我要跟民進黨喊話，全部都切割了啦！今天王義川到底是膝蓋局局長還是天眼局局長，民進黨賴清德出來給個交代吧！不管哪一個都是說謊！我今天也問我們的主委，你在這個地方會說謊嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然要據實陳述啊。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，據實陳述啊，所以為什麼我們的聽證調查規範官員要有誠實回答的一個義務，就是希望能夠真相發現嘛，可是今天民進黨政策會執行長，要嘛就是天眼局局長說謊，要嘛就是膝蓋局局長說謊，這樣的所謂中央政策會執行長，你不砸掉、不廢掉、不砍掉，我想請問民進黨，你的執政怎麼說服公眾啊？以上。"],["主席（林委員國成代）：好，謝謝羅智強委員質詢。","現在請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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,{"start":374.588,"end":393.008,"text":"今天王逸川到底是膝蓋局局長還是天眼局局長你明明這樣耐心的出來給個交代吧不管哪一個都是說謊我今天問我們的主委你在這個地方會說謊嗎當然要據實陳述啊對啊 據實陳述啊所以為什麼今天我們的聽證調查今天規範官員要有誠實"},{"start":397.669,"end":413.323,"text":"回答的一個義務就是希望能夠真相發現可是今天你們民進黨的政策會執行長你要嘛就天眼局局長說謊要嘛就膝蓋局局長說謊這樣的所謂的中央政策會執行長你不砸掉、不廢掉、不砍掉我想請問民進黨你的執政怎麼說服公眾以上"}]}},{"id":"153460","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153460","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707a64c53fc019b427d59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c49d2664fa287e6015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:39:52 - 11:50:01","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T11:39:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T11:50:01+08:00","duration":609,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時39分）謝謝陳雪生召委，先請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請數發部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：黃部長好。我們今天都在談我們人民個資的保護，這是一定要的，也是政府一定要去維護的，畢竟這是人民的權益。","今天談的這個問題，不管是電信業者，或者是我接下來要談的第三方支付，我覺得保護人民的個資，維護人民的權益，不僅僅是政府，甚至是所有的民間企業都必須要做到，對不對？好，那我現在就來談問題出在哪裡，我們到現在都在談打詐、打詐，我們還是發現，即使到現在政府各單位動起來了要組一個打詐國家隊，結果詐騙仍然橫行，而其橫行最重要的是它金流的來源在哪裡，其中一個環節是在第三方支付。我們到現在，我這個是搜尋的，最近這些媒體有爆出來的個案，都看到這些詐騙集團的金流一樣是透過第三方支付變成是它的工具，我們現在雖然有說要強化監管，部長，就你認為，第三方支付現在是我們數位發展部要管理的嗎？你自己認為呢？"],["黃部長彥男：督導。"],["何委員欣純：你說督導，請問現在你的認知、態度？"],["黃部長彥男：跟委員報告，當然第三方支付是一個，的確是詐騙的一個管道，我們現在已經在做管理，包括能量登錄，從過去有一萬多家的所謂第三方支付業者，現在只有剩下五十幾家，只有五十幾家的好處，就是說我們就可以對它比較強度監管，他們如果申請……"],["何委員欣純：你說強度監管，等一下我會繼續問你這個，我跟你講，我說第三方支付淪為詐騙的溫床，對不對？你剛剛也講它可能是詐騙工具的一個項目，而且幾乎是橫行喔。對，你們說你們有源頭管理，現在有需要它登錄，但是我再提醒喔，你們還是被動的接受登錄，這個服務量能的登錄制度雖然是因應洗錢防制法，這是我們去年的修法，還有數位發展部有給予所謂的法遵指引，但是你們的量能我覺得還是不夠，為什麼不夠？源頭管理、阻斷詐騙，你們還做不到！你們的查核量能、效率很慢耶！","我舉一個例子，這個是你們給我的資料，我調出來的，剛剛部長也有講一萬多家，可以做第三方支付服務業的有一萬多家，現在登錄的，你們給我的資料原來是說54家，這54家裡面，其中有一家現在被廢止了，但這個被廢止的，我要跟你講這個時間差透露出我們數位發展部的效率慢、量能不夠。這一家叫做揚盛，揚盛原來在112年8月左右，你們就讓它通過登錄，你們讓它通過登錄之後，你們到什麼時候才去實地查核你知道嗎？隔一年的1月！從8月到隔一年的1月，總共將近五個月，你們實地查核才發現它有異樣，它搬離了現址，也沒有辦法再來補件，也沒辦法再來說明。你們一直到，這是你們自己發的新聞稿，一直到今年的3月才說要廢止它的登錄。部長，從你們給它通過的112年8月到今年的3月才廢止，這中間經過幾個月？"],["黃部長彥男：8月到3月，就已經有七個月了。"],["何委員欣純：對嘛，你都答不出來啦，半年多啦！"],["黃部長彥男：七個月、七個月。"],["何委員欣純：這半年多，七個月的空窗期，那請問一下，如果它繼續淪為詐騙集團所利用的第三方支付，請問發生了多少件了？騙了多少錢了？你知道嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們那個……"],["何委員欣純：你根本沒有辦法控管啊！"],["黃部長彥男：對，委員這個部分我們要改進啦，但是那個細節，我是不是請副署長報告？"],["何委員欣純：你們說要改進，問題是你們改進到現在是怎麼樣改進法？你們監管的量能到哪裡？監管的強度到哪裡？"],["林副署長俊秀：跟委員報告，揚盛這個案子是因為它有……"],["何委員欣純：我不是要針對個案，我要講的是你們的效率！"],["林副署長俊秀：我們一年大概會查二十幾家，其中有調查局來的……"],["何委員欣純：那一萬多家現在被動接受來登記了53家，所以……"],["林副署長俊秀：跟委員報告，我們查了之後，真正有在做的大概一百多家，100家左右。"],["何委員欣純：好，100家左右，我不管是100家或是120家，現在是53家有登錄啦，其他一半以上都還沒有登錄！"],["林副署長俊秀：跟委員報告，現在來申請的有八十幾家，五十幾家是通過的。"],["何委員欣純：這個數字落差是你自己講出來的喔，現在實際上有在做的大概100家、120家，其中有來登錄的是八十幾家，已經通過申請的大概是五十幾家，這三個數字之間，你總是要給人民一個交代吧！"],["林副署長俊秀：其中有10家沒有通過。"],["何委員欣純：那其他沒有來登錄的還可以再繼續進行第三方支付嗎？"],["林副署長俊秀：不行。"],["何委員欣純：不行嘛，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：他去申請銀行不會給。"],["何委員欣純：我現在就要跟你講銀行的事情，部長，我希望你身為數位發展部的部長，在管理第三方支付、源頭管理上是重點，但是你的效率不彰，你的量能不夠。你現在看一下，這是我幫你爬梳出來的，數位發展部在管第三方支付、管業者，消費者被詐騙的是繳錢給第三方支付，他代收代付，代收代付，再付給這個賣家所謂在銀行的帳戶，這中間有一個關鍵重點，就是第三方支付連結到的叫做銀行端的虛擬帳戶！如果一旦消費者發生被詐騙的情況之下，請問數發部在什麼時候、在哪一個環節，可以馬上阻斷？"],["林副署長俊秀：我來報告一下，我們現在有一個聯防平臺提供給檢警調做調查，把那些虛擬帳號是哪一家第三方支付提供給他們，現在已經查一萬多筆了。"],["何委員欣純：現在平均在第三方支付，業者這個虛擬帳號阻斷的效率如何？平均每通報一個案件，你花多少時間去做阻斷的動作？"],["林副署長俊秀：這個檢警調在那邊查詢，一下子就可以查到是哪一個第三方支付的虛擬帳號。"],["何委員欣純：沒有一下子喔！沒有一下子喔！"],["林副署長俊秀：過去是沒有這個聯防平臺的。"],["何委員欣純：你現在這個聯防平臺也沒有一下子啊，都有時間上的落差嘛，從警政署、警政單位接收到報案，再去通報，通報之後，你們再要求第三方支付阻斷金流，不付給銀行，這中間是有時間差的喔，這中間是有時間差的喔，你自己坦白講。"],["林副署長俊秀：跟委員報告，過去時間差比較久，現在有我們那個聯防平臺的話，其實檢警調相對很快……"],["何委員欣純：你現在有聯防平臺之後，你告訴我時間差多少啊！"],["林副署長俊秀：因為這個東西……"],["何委員欣純：你現在講出來的都有錄音、錄影喔。"],["林副署長俊秀：是、是、是，因為這個都是檢警做調查的時候去通知銀行的，這我們可能要跟他們……"],["何委員欣純：你看你現在講的又跟剛剛回答我的不一樣了啊！"],["林副署長俊秀：沒有不一樣。"],["何委員欣純：不一樣！我剛剛的問題是說數位發展部在管第三方支付業者，那第三方支付業者，如果一旦消費者認為他被詐騙了，他的錢是繳給第三方支付，第三方支付再給銀行端，你現在講的是警政署收到詐騙案件的通報後是直接到銀行端。但是我跟你講，第三方支付轉出去之後到銀行端，警政署數萬件的通報案件到銀行端的時候，等到銀行端凍結帳號，這中間就有時間差，很多都是透過第三方支付給銀行，銀行就馬上轉匯出去了。這中間就是我們認為人民要求的數位聯防平臺是不是能夠更強化、能夠更即時？你數位發展部有沒有權力要求第三方支付，一收到消費者疑似被詐騙金額的時候，它就可以系統阻斷，可不可以？不可以啦！我現在就跟你講嘛。"],["林副署長俊秀：是，還是要透過檢警調。"],["何委員欣純：所以你應該跟金管會、跟銀行端，我覺得這是要跨部會合作，因為現在這個聯防平臺就是漏了你們這一關啦，就是少了你們這一個把關啦，你不能整個都推給銀行、推給金管會，因為第三方支付業者現在是數位發展部在管的，是不是？所以我拜託你好好的去研擬出一套你可以回答我問題，真正可以運行的，我的要求、人民的要求就是第三方支付監管還必須強化，你的聯防也必須要強化，凍結警示帳戶的速度也要更快，這樣才能阻斷詐騙集團的金流，也才能夠維護人民的權益啦，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，委員，回去我就把整個process再檢討一遍。謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員發言。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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認為來你督導現在你的認知態度那個跟委員報告我們當然第三置戶是一個的確啦是詐騙的一個管道那我們在做已經在做管理包括能量登錄啦從過去有一萬多家的所謂第三方置戶業者現在只有剩下五十幾家那五十幾家的好處就是說我們就可以對他比較強度監管那他們如果是你的強度監管等一下我就問你來我跟你講"},{"start":122.466,"end":140.358,"text":"第三方支付我說淪為詐騙的溫床對不對你剛剛也講是可能是詐騙工具的一個項目而且幾乎是橫行喔那你們說呢對你們有源頭管理現在有需要他登錄但是我在提醒喔你們還是被動的接受登錄"},{"start":141.818,"end":164.852,"text":"這個服務量能的登錄制度雖然是因應洗錢防治法我們去年修法還有數位發展部有給予所謂的法尊指引但是你們的量能我覺得不夠為什麼不夠源頭管理阻斷詐騙你們還做不到你們的查核量能效率很慢"},{"start":166.311,"end":184.811,"text":"我舉一個例子這個是你們給我的資料我調出來的剛剛部長有講一萬多家可以做第三方支付服務業的有一萬多家那現在登錄的你們給我的資料原來是說54家54家裡面其中有一家"},{"start":186.557,"end":214.146,"text":"現在被廢止了那這個被廢止了我要跟你講這個時間差透露出我們數位發展部的這個效率慢量能不夠這一家叫做楊盛楊盛呢原來在112年呢8月左右你們就讓他通過登錄你們讓他通過登錄了之後你們到什麼時候才去實地查核你知道嗎隔一年的1月"},{"start":216.212,"end":238.207,"text":"從8月到隔一年的1月總共將近5個月你們實地查核才發現他有異樣他搬離了縣子也沒有辦法再來補件也沒有辦法再來說明你們一直到這是你們自己發的這個新聞稿一直到今年的3月才說廢止他的登錄"},{"start":239.81,"end":248.376,"text":"那部長從你們給他通過的112年8月到今年的3月才廢止這中間經過幾個月?"},{"start":251.059,"end":272.947,"text":"8月到3月就已經有7個月對嘛你都答不出來了半年多啦這半年多7個月的空窗期那請問一下如果他繼續淪為詐騙集團所利用的第三方支付那發生了多少件了騙了多少錢了你知道嗎"},{"start":274.153,"end":275.534,"text":"我們一年大概會查20幾家"},{"start":302.15,"end":302.17,"text":"議員報告．"},{"start":323.66,"end":325.801,"text":"這三個數字之間你總是要給人民一個交代吧其他沒有來登錄的還可以繼續進行第三方支付嗎?"},{"start":351.888,"end":374.44,"text":"我現在就跟你講銀行的事情了來部長我希望你身為數位發展部的部長在管理第三方支付你源頭管理是重點但是你的效率不彰你的量能不夠你現在看喔我幫你爬書出來數位發展部在管第三方支付管業者那消費者被詐騙的是"},{"start":376.141,"end":377.482,"text":"請問事務發布在什麼時候在哪一個環節可以馬上阻斷"},{"start":403.748,"end":407.13,"text":"現在平均可以在第三方支付業者這個虛擬帳號的一個阻斷的效率如何?你平均每通到一個案件你花多少時間去做阻斷的動作?"},{"start":424.868,"end":447.783,"text":"你現在這個聯防平台也沒有一下子喔都有時間上的落差喔從警政署、警政單位接收到報案報案再接收到去通報通報之後你們要求第三方支付斷"},{"start":449.684,"end":452.646,"text":"你告訴我時間差多少啊?你現在講出來錄影錄影喔"},{"start":473.511,"end":480.318,"text":"因為這個都是檢警調查了之後去通知銀行的 這我們可能要跟他們 你看你現在講的又跟剛剛回答我的不一樣了啊沒有不一樣"},{"start":484.989,"end":506.681,"text":"我剛剛的問題是說你數位發展部在管第三方支付業者那第三方支付業者如果一旦消費者認為他被詐騙了他的錢是交給第三方支付第三方支付再給銀行端你現在講的是警政署收到被通報的收到詐騙的案件通報是直接到銀行端但是我跟你講"},{"start":507.401,"end":533.034,"text":"第三方支付轉出去之後在銀行端警政署數萬件的通報案件到銀行端的時候銀行端凍結帳號這中間就有時間差很多都是透過第三方支付給銀行銀行就馬上轉匯出去了這中間就是我們認為說人民要求我們的數位聯防平台是不是能夠更強化能夠更及時"},{"start":535.356,"end":563.344,"text":"你數位發展部有沒有權利要求第三方支付一收到這個消費者一次被詐騙的金額的時候他就可以系統阻斷可不可以不可以啦我現在都跟你講啦所以你應該跟金管會跟銀行端我覺得這是要跨部會合作因為你們現在這個聯防平台就是漏了你們這一關啦"},{"start":564.488,"end":593.989,"text":"就是少了你們這個把關啊你不能整個都推給銀行啊推給金管會啊因為第三方支付業者現在是數位發展部在管的啊是不是所以我拜託你去好好的去研擬出一套你可以回答我問題真正可以運行的我的要求人民的要求就是第三方支付監管還必須強化你的聯防也必須要強化你的"},{"start":594.469,"end":594.73,"text":"謝謝何欣純委員發言"}]}},{"id":"153459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7079a6422e1e2d9f7d059c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0cf522f85420393ee15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:31:19 - 11:39:44","影片長度":"00:08:25","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T11:31:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T11:39:44+08:00","duration":505,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":875,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時31分）謝謝主席，主席辛苦了，有請陳主委。"],["主席：陳主委請。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：陳主委，從王義川事件，我想這件事情其實凸顯了現在管理電信事業的主管機關NCC，似乎在電信事業的大數據分析以及其利用上面的管理出現了問題，我想請教一下，三大電信公司販賣人流分析服務的這件事情你是不是知悉，他們的確有在這麼做？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是行之有年的事情。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，行之有年的事情，很好。人流分析的服務包含哪些項目？基本上包含了用戶的基本資料、數位通路足跡、傳統電信數據和行動通訊足跡，以及還可以幫有需求的企業客製化提供特定的資訊。大家看看，用戶的基本資料包含了年齡、性別、興趣、手機型號、信用程度；數位通路足跡包含所有瀏覽過的網頁；行動通訊足跡包含所停留的地點；甚至還可以客製化業者的要求。到底現在的三大電信業者有沒有在做？事實上當然是有，而且他們可能已經做好幾年了。","看看中華電信，他們在自己網頁上面所提供的相關資訊，中華電信的AI大數據應用產品，裡面有人潮客群分析平臺，它告訴你，它可以蒐集多少的數據資料。接下來大家看一看中華電信可以做到什麼程度，它可以去進行客群分析，包含現在的族群是本國人還是大陸人還是外國人，其人潮分析的區域是在哪一個區域，它都可以做到非常精準。不僅如此，我們再看看遠傳，它也提供相關的人潮大數據分析，它還可以精準到客戶喜歡什麼樣的手機品牌，其年齡層是屬於什麼樣的階級等等。這樣的大數據分析，依照現在電信管理法的角度來講，這樣的作法合理嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，很多的大數據分析其實已經不是在電信管理法的處理範圍了，很多東西已經變成數據利用相關法規所規範的問題了。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以NCC都沒有責任？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是沒有責任，而是以這個部分來講的話，為什麼說我們管的就是個資保護這一塊，這是一定要落實的，而大數據這個部分，當然以業者來講的話，它如果有逾越了比如去識別化的這些要求或是不可回逆的要求，當然要……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，瞭解。我們看一下，不僅是業者有這個需求，內政部也是，他們做了電信信令人口統計資料，這都是運用基地臺的訊號，可以進行非常廣泛的、各式各樣的資訊分析，民間組織也可以依自身需求，彈性調整指標權重。大家知道嗎？內政部的電信信令人口統計資料還可以對外收費，也就是當時這些電信信令基於公共利益或公共政策而做的這些統計資料還可以對外販售。請問，被蒐集資料的電信用戶知道這件事情嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：以相關的這些規定來講的話，比如我們的定型化契約裡面都有要求所要處理的……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們現在看到在電信用戶個資保護條款裡面，最主要的法律就是電信管理法的第九條，電信事業必須要保存電信用戶所產生的通信紀錄以及帳務紀錄，並且要給予一定的保密，違反的話還有重罰。在相關的個資保護條款裡面，我必須要說NCC怠惰，嚴重的違法失職，大家看看消保會在101年時修正的行動通信網路業務服務契約範本，裡面有清楚提到電信業者對所掌握的電信用戶相關資料負有保密義務，而且不得對第三人揭露。這個條文到現在為止也沒有修，所以我們現在看到所有電信公司的相關服務契約裡面的保密條款寫得非常非常簡單，對於所謂的去識別化這件事情，是誰來認定去識別化的資訊是否已經達標、是否符合個資保護法以及GDPR等等的相關法規？是由業者自己說了算嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，基本上我們也會要求業者要依照他們的個資維護計畫去處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：我要講，這就是NCC怠惰，電信業者是你們所監理的，你們要求他們要善盡保護電信用戶個資與相關權益，可是在過去這段時間裡面，你們根本沒有修相關的服務契約，而且民眾到底是否知道他們自己的資料已經被用來分析，以及民眾是否應該要有相關的權利可以選擇退出這些數據分析計畫？你們無作為……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這個在……"],["翁委員曉玲：我必須說你們無作為……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：在相關的定型化契約裡面……"],["翁委員曉玲：我看過你們的電信……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：處理、利用、蒐集這些應該都有跟當事人告知。"],["翁委員曉玲：都有告知？那是非常抽象模糊的，請問在座的各位，你們知道你們有哪些資訊是被電信事業所使用嗎？以及他們蒐集資料之後，他們是怎麼樣的去再利用嗎？我們一般的老百姓、一般的電信用戶是完全無所知，而您擔任了NCC主委6年、委員8年，整個NCC看起來在這方面是沒有作為的，本席感到非常地遺憾。所以……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們在個資保護，另外跟所謂的數據應用服務的……"],["翁委員曉玲：不要把這些事情……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我們都有處理了。"],["翁委員曉玲：不要把這些問題都丟到個資法，你們是電信事業的主管機關……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！這個是個資……"],["翁委員曉玲：電信管理法裡面就有要求……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：而你們沒有根據個資法去要求電信事業要善加做到去識別化……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個我們都有，有、有、有，我們有處理啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：去識別化不是由電信業者自己單方來認定什麼樣的資訊去識別化……"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，我補充一下，現在因為電信管理法實施以後，我們都已經有督導電信業者來修訂相關的消費者保護契約及定型化契約的規範，而最新版本是在第三十七條，我們都有要求請電信事業恪遵個資保護法的相關規定。另外剛才委員所提到的，消費者可以選擇退出。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他們認為他們有遵守了規定，你們就認為他們做到了嗎？沒有一個查核的機制……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們有稽核制度啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：電信業者就是球員兼裁判，認為哪些資訊是去識別化……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們有外部稽核，也有內控機制，都有。"],["翁委員曉玲：他們說了算嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，我們本來每一年都有外部稽核機制存在。"],["黃副處長天陽：每一年都有稽核。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我有看到你們的稽核機制，計畫之抽象、之模糊，根本沒有把我們剛剛講的那些現在電信業者所進行的人流分析數據列為查核的指標。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：應用服務的類型非常多種，但是那個我們要去處理啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：總之，剛剛已經有臨時提案了，希望你們要就相關的作法進行完整的報告。"],["主席：好啦！主委，你們就虛心接受嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，我們……"],["主席：他也是NCC委員出來的啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們跟委員說明清楚啊！"],["主席：他當然很清楚嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是、是、是。"],["主席：你們一定有做不好的地方。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們會檢討改進，謝謝。"],["主席：你們虛心接受嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：檢討改進嘛，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","下一位請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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感到非常的遺憾了不要把這些事情不要把這些問題都丟到個資法你們是電信管理法的電信事業的主管機關電信管理法裡面就有要求而你們沒有根據個資法"},{"start":416.082,"end":419.246,"text":"去要求電信事業要善加做到要去識別化這去識別化不是由電信業者自己單方來認定什麼樣的這個資訊去識別化報告委員我們現在補充一下就是我們現在因為電信管理法實施以後我們都已經有督導電信業者來"},{"start":435.363,"end":453.59,"text":"我們修訂相關的消費者保護契約還有定型化契約的規範我們最新版本大概是在37條我們都有要求要請電信業課金而擱存各自保護法相關規定還有剛才委員有提到的第三方消費者可以退出可以選擇退出所以他們認為他們有遵守了規定你們就認為他們做到了嗎沒有一個查核的機制電信業者就是球員兼裁判認為哪些資訊是真實聯話他們說了算嗎"},{"start":464.955,"end":472.024,"text":"沒有沒有,我們本來就每一年都有外部集合機制存在,對是,我有看到你們的集合機制的那個計畫之抽象之模糊根本沒有把我們剛剛講的那些現在電信業者所進行的人流分析的數據列為是查核的"},{"start":481.636,"end":482.276,"text":"謝謝我們翁曉玲委員"}]}},{"id":"153458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707e8d017425c4dc036b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c17089a88df8f32e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:07:47 - 11:13:54","影片長度":"00:06:07","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T11:07:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T11:13:54+08:00","duration":367,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時7分）謝謝主席，有請財政部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。今天我們繼續討論財劃法的問題，先舉一個國外的例子，這個是德國有關於共享稅的分配，他們所謂的法人稅，也就是近似於我們的營利事業所得稅，聯邦政府一半，各邦政府一半；他們一般人民的所得稅，聯邦政府42.5%，各邦政府42.5%，鄉鎮15%；他們的營業稅，聯邦政府49.6%，各邦47.2%，各鄉鎮3.2%。你看跟臺灣的差距其實是滿大的，臺灣的狀況是這樣的，所得稅中央拿走9成，地方只分10%；營業稅中央拿走6成，地方分4成；貨物稅中央拿走9成，跟德國相比，其實差距是非常非常的大，所以也造成每一屆每一屆地方政府其實都希望財政收支劃分法趕快來修正，因為基本上中央集權又集錢，讓地方財政負擔沉重，衍生很多很多的問題。我就想問部長，這麼長的時間、二十幾年，大家都在大聲疾呼的時候，請問為什麼到現在我們都還看不到民進黨政府執政的院版？請部長回答。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。委員剛剛提出來國外的一個分成，也跟委員報告，這涉及到有關事權的分配，比如說他們以聯邦跟邦之間事權要怎麼分配，因為垂直的分配裡面，事權跟錢必須要相對應，這是第一個。"],["牛委員煦庭：同意，沒關係。"],["莊部長翠雲：第二個，剛剛委員提到在這麼長的時間，為什麼財劃法沒有能夠修正？第一個就是沒有共識，曾經也五度提出過修法的版本，但是因為在水平分配的部分，各地方政府對於希望能夠為它自己的縣區爭取更大的財源，所以沒有辦法達成共識，所以版本提出來沒有共識情況下，依然是沒有辦法完成修法，所以目前來說，我們也就是在凝聚這個共識，我們希望把共識凝聚起來以後，提出來的版本才可以過，完成修法的程序。"],["牛委員煦庭：在每一年、每一年，我們的中央政府都大聲疾呼說我們要凝聚共識，講一大堆，可是事實上就從112年 最新的資料顯示，國庫的稅收3兆，分配到地方只剩下28%，103年的時候這個數字是35%，你每一年沒有共識、沒有共識，結論就是從35%萎縮到28%，這個狀況跟問題越來越嚴重。曾經民進黨政府執政的財政部長蘇建榮也曾經表示，財劃法要修正有四大原則要兼顧：第一、規模要擴大；第二、直轄市跟縣市標準一致；第三、考量區域平衡；第四、視地方政府的財政、努力程度給予補助。所以你不是沒有指導綱領，你其實該有的原則早就都有了，你說要百分之百的共識，恐怕問題也很大，也很難達到，但沒關係嘛！現在國民黨黨團已經有版本，國民黨黨團加上在野執政的縣市總共16個縣市，這16個縣市有直轄市、有縣市、有偏鄉、有離島也有都會，其實我認為已經具備了充分的代表性，按照我們黨團版本的草案去做設算跟規劃的時候，其實民進黨政府執政的地方縣市臺南、高雄，其實它獲配的數量也有提升，所以我覺得這樣子的一個草案其實已經很接近所謂的地方共識了，我希望財政部，如果你真的提不出來，我覺得也不要耽誤法案的審查，該審就審了啦！財政部部長，你有什麼想法嗎？你看過現在的草案了沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們都讀過，所有委員跟黨團所提出來的版本，我們都有做詳細的研議，所以我們才會算出來各個版本裡面，中央需要增加釋出多少的財源。至於水平分配的部分，我們就這個版本的部分會盡力去做試算，為什麼？因為有些版本對於這個指標並不具體、沒有定義，所以我們只能用假設再去試算，我們自己也都在試算分配的結果是如何，因為要真正地去算才知道分配的結果是如何。"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得你繞來繞去，那結論到底你什麼時候才算得出一個結果來？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是指說計算是嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，你剛剛講說……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們應該這幾天就可以把它算出來，就是各個版本分配下來會是怎麼樣一個情況，我們可以試算出來，但是因為有些指標並不明確，我們就設法以假設的方式來算。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，反正沒關係，這個法案現在開始進入實質的審查，我的意思是說很多委員今天都提說希望有院版，但我的想法不一樣，如果你院版提不出來就算了，就按照現有的版本來進行審查，你趕快來做試算，禮拜三公聽會，我也希望大家都積極參加，剛剛我們召委非常厲害，一個一個叫上來問，其實每一個縣市呈現出來的財政缺口，這都是地方政府在治理的時候真實存在的問題，我們不希望政府換了位置就換了腦袋。我提醒一下部長，我們現在的總統，剛上任的賴清總統在2017年做行政院長的時候，他其實就說要均衡地方發展的三個方向：第一個叫行政區重劃，第二叫修正財劃法，第三叫地方創生。他到院長卸任的時候都沒有結果，他現在當總統了，總該有結果了，他如果沒有辦法有結果，我們就幫他有結果，我希望部長就積極地來配合，我們不要耽擱法案的審議可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前也是積極地在努力當中，然後凝聚共識。"],["牛委員煦庭：凝聚共識，那我可以很短的時間得到你財政部設算的結果，跟對這個法案的意見跟方向，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：設算的結果我們可以提供，我們大概禮拜三之前就可以提供。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那請財政部做好準備，大家充分討論，謝謝，以上。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請涂權吉、涂權吉、涂權吉，涂委員不在。","請邱若華、邱若華、邱若華，邱委員不在。","請萬美玲、萬美玲、萬美玲，萬委員不在。","請羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅委員不在。","牛委員，等一下，這樣子喔，我們這個法案社會大家都很關心，所以給大家充分討論的機會，因為沒有討論就沒有民主，所以現在請大家充分地討論，請問有沒有委員要繼續發言？沒有。有沒有委員要繼續發言的？請充分討論，本席給所有的委員充分討論的機會，有沒有？大家都討論過了，好，沒有關係，如果有意見的，請把書面資料再給我，我再送給相關單位財政部、主計總處做參考。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復，惟另要求期限者，從其所定。三、委員萬美玲、邱鎮軍、羅廷瑋、廖先翔所提書面質詢，委員牛煦庭所提書面補充資料均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。四、本日會議如有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.16159375,"end":2.2415937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.50284375,"end":5.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.548468750000001,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.93221875,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.22221875,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.16284375,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.85159375,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.81721875,"end":45.188468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.11659375,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.96846875,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.85846875,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.70221875,"end":52.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.305343750000006,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.45284375000001,"end":55.414718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.072843750000004,"end":67.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.53096875,"end":68.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.56034375,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.20159375,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.78784375000001,"end":80.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.35159375,"end":93.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.44659375,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.35721875,"end":127.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.52409375,"end":112.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.26409375,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.07284375,"end":143.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.46846875,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.60284375,"end":147.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.67034375,"end":173.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.72096875,"end":148.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.22721875000002,"end":193.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.41846875000002,"end":195.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.05096875,"end":198.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.05471875,"end":199.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.45534375000003,"end":211.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.27221875,"end":213.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.11159375000003,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.30971875,"end":216.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.12784375,"end":235.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.12909375,"end":237.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.81659375,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.49971875000003,"end":270.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.87471875,"end":274.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.95846875,"end":288.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.64596875,"end":277.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.48096875000005,"end":279.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.18846875,"end":316.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.17971875,"end":320.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.11159375,"end":336.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.94034375,"end":348.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.57971875000004,"end":352.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.07284375,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.21534375000005,"end":362.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.60721875,"end":366.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.96534375000005,"end":367.14659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.232,"end":5.034,"text":"收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、"},{"start":20.857,"end":22.538,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":46.158,"end":53.72,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":70.854,"end":93.283,"text":"每一屆每一屆地方政府其實都希望財政收支劃分法趕快來做修正因為基本上中央集權又集錢讓地方的財政負擔沉重衍生很多很多的問題喔那我就想問部長這麼長的時間20幾年大家都在大聲疾呼的時候請問為什麼到現在我們都還看不到民進黨政府執政的院板請部長回答"},{"start":95.409,"end":112.986,"text":"謝謝委員,委員剛剛提出來國外的一個分層那也跟委員報告這涉及到有關的一個事權的一個分配也就是中央比如他們以聯邦跟邦之間那就事權要怎麼分配因為垂直的分配裡面必須事權跟錢必須要相對應這是一個那第二個剛剛委員提到就是說為什麼這麼長的時間為什麼財劃法沒有能夠修正那也就跟第一個就是沒有共識"},{"start":120.332,"end":147.017,"text":"曾經也五度提出過修法的版本但是因為在水平分配的部分各地方政府對於希望能夠為他自己的縣區爭取更大的一個裁員所以沒有辦法達成共識所以版本提出來沒有共識情況下依然是沒有辦法完成修法所以目前來說我們也就是在凝聚這個共識我們希望把共識凝聚起來以後提出來的版本那才能夠完成修法的程序"},{"start":147.897,"end":168.383,"text":"在每一年每一年啊這個我們的中央政府都大聲疾呼說我們要擬具共識擬具共識講一大堆可是事實上就是從112年最新的資料顯示這個國庫的稅收3兆分配到地方只剩下28%103年的時候這個數字是35%你每一年沒有共識沒有共識結論就是從35%萎縮到28%這個狀況跟問題越來越嚴重來下一張"},{"start":176.245,"end":198.113,"text":"這個曾經民進黨政府執政的財政部長蘇建榮也曾經表示,草案法要修正有四大原則要兼顧。第一,規模要擴大。第二,直轄市跟縣市標準一致。第三,考量區域平衡。第四,考量地方政府的財政努力程度給予補助。所以你不是沒有指導綱領嗎?你其實該有的原則其實早就都有了。那你說要百分之百的共識,恐怕"},{"start":199.413,"end":216.679,"text":"問題也很大也很難達到但沒關係嘛現在國民黨黨團已經有提版本國民黨黨團加上在野執政縣市總共16個縣市這16個縣市有直轄市有縣市有偏鄉有離島也有都會其實我認為已經具備了充分的代表性"},{"start":217.219,"end":239.785,"text":"那按照我們黨團版本的草案去做設算跟規劃的時候其實民進黨政府執政的地方縣市台南、高雄其實它貨配的數量也有提升所以我覺得這樣子的一個草案其實已經很接近所謂的地方共識了我希望財政部如果你真的提不出來我覺得也不要耽誤法案的審查該審就審了啦財政部部長你有什麼想法嗎?你看過現在的草案了沒有?"},{"start":240.558,"end":270.318,"text":"我們都讀過所有委員跟黨團所提提出來的版本我們都有做詳細的研議然後所以我們才會算出來這個部分各個版本裡面中央需要增加釋出多少的財源那至於水平分配的部分我們就這個版本的部分會盡力去做試算為什麼因為有些版本對於這個指標並不具體沒有定義所以我們只能用假設再去試算所以我們這也都在試算這個分配的結果是如何因為要真正的去算才知道分配的結果是如何"},{"start":270.898,"end":271.558,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":292.168,"end":293.209,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":317.262,"end":336.151,"text":"政府換了位置就換了腦袋因為我提醒一下部長我們現在的總統剛上任的這個賴清德總統在2017年他做行政院長的時候他其實就說要均衡地方發展的三個方向第一個叫行政區重劃第二叫修正財劃法第三叫地方創生"},{"start":337.071,"end":348.144,"text":"他到院長卸任的時候都沒有結果那他現在當總統了總該有結果啦他如果沒有辦法有結果我們就幫他有結果那我希望部長就積極的來配合我們不要耽擱法案的審議可以嗎?"},{"start":349.616,"end":351.178,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答"}]}},{"id":"153457","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153457","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707a520dfa8d9dd7bf5b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c4114c9b574ea74ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:57:41 - 11:06:29","影片長度":"00:08:48","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:57:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T11:06:29+08:00","duration":528,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":635,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時57分）謝謝主席。請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。剛剛羅明才召委把十七個縣市的缺口提出來問，我覺得很具體，我在這邊也要再針對新竹市再多做一些補充發言跟爭取。這二十五年來財劃法沒有修正，但在過程中，三不五時就聽到要修財劃法，包括2022年時民進黨本來提竹竹合併，即新竹縣、新竹市合併的時候提出要修地制法，最主要的理由就是新竹市每年創稅1,800億，當時市長提出來的數字是這樣子。但他覺得得到的統籌款非常少，所以認為財劃法分配不公，因而主張從地制法來做合併。至於最主要合併升格的理由在於錢分配不均，財劃法分配不均，這個部分部長應該還記憶猶新，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的、是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：當時民進黨本來提出了一字修法的方式，但大家覺得因人設事，不太妥適；不過對於財劃法的修正，當時朝野都認為要修財劃法，當時是這樣子。可是我發現到目前為止，從2022年到現在，財政部基本上沒有提出新的財劃法修正版本，部長剛剛重複提到因為還在凝聚共識的階段，對不對？問題是地方肯定等不及了！因為這二十五年來，如果能夠凝聚共識的話，那麼有二十五年了應該可以凝聚共識，所以我們現在其實會有時間的壓力，我們希望儘快對財劃法進行適當地修正，當然各縣市的平衡、中央地方的平衡是很重要的，針對這部分我要特別提到，以新竹市來講，剛剛新竹市代表很客氣地講，只要再多100億，剛才在羅明才召委問的時候，新竹市、新竹縣、苗栗都提100億，其實坦白說非常地保守，剛剛新竹市代表還提到因為科學園區在新竹，很多相關的社會成本都是新竹市要去買單，包括公共交通運輸只占了6.1%，大部分都要靠自己的交通工具，實際上是很不夠的，在這個情況之下，我們需要有很好的公共交通系統進來。","我給部長看一下大新竹建設、大新竹輕軌，這是中央的計畫，基本上我們光看錢的部分就好了，因為今天是在財政委員這邊提的，新竹市自己負擔就要197.6億，總預算354.82億，工程款包括自償、非自償的部分，還有用地費，整個加起來就要197.6億，坦白說，新竹市根本負擔不起，所以你會發現有很多的計畫跟建設，中央在推，地方的配合款遠遠跟不上。以新竹市而言，坦白說，整個財務結構都算是比較優等的縣市，都還沒有辦法分配的時候，其他的縣市就更慘，在這個情況之下，我再舉一個例子，在5月底新竹市發生大火，兩個警消因公殉職，當時大家想新竹市高科技園區有沒有高的雲梯車可以來救援？其實是沒有的，因為地方政府也沒有錢，中央的補助款也都遲遲沒有來，所以地方要有足夠的財源，才能夠去滿足地方的需求。","我今天再給你看幾張簡報，很多園區的成本其實都是地方要買單的，像失火，一而再，再而三，很多的案子，在這個部分我要特別提到一個點，所以我們主張統籌分配款其實要適當地調整，針對新竹市的部分，我跟部長再稍微講一下，這是112年度的數字，全國所得稅1兆8,346億，新竹市貢獻了3,067億，占16.7%，可是新竹市112年的統籌分配稅款，在全國4,227億當中，只分配到63.5億，只占了1.5%，部長，你覺得這樣子合理嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，在新竹市裡面，我們的分配公式都還有一個營利事業的營業額，其實新竹市在這個部分占比是比較大的，相對它也能夠獲配比較多。當然今天以這個數據來看，各地方政府都會說我為什麼分配那麼少，也就是我們在水平分配的時候，必須要提出一個非常好的分配公式，相關的指標都要放進去，讓各地方政府認為這樣的分配是合宜的，這也是我們一直在努力的方向。委員剛剛提了非常多在新竹市的部分，比如說它需要建設，不管是消防的雲梯或者消防人員的安全裝備，以及公共運輸的建設，我們都可以理解，所以我們在這個過程當中也一直都在修正。另外，雖然中央統籌分配稅款，在財劃法沒有修，但是一般性的補助款跟計畫型的補助款，中央都還是在挹注的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，這個部分看起來還是不合理，既然中央跟地方是夥伴關係，我想與其在討論餅要怎麼樣在地方之間劃分做更好地分配的時候，是把一些餅就直接留在地方，中央跟地方的財源有統籌分配稅款之外，很重要的部分就是國稅共分機制，事實上在財劃法第八條第一項第二款裡面，對於遺產跟贈與也有一部分是留在地方，本席在這邊也特別提到，我們希望針對所得稅的部分，也有部分的比例能夠保留在地方，因為目前其實是都沒有，所以本席希望針對財劃法第八條第一項第一款裡面的所得稅部分，有部分的比例能夠留在地方，本席會提出25%的修正動議，至於能夠有多少比例，我覺得大家可以討論，可是以目前我們看起來，新竹市在整個中央所得稅的貢獻度跟統籌分配款真的是不成比例，我們希望能夠有適當的所得稅比例留在地方，能夠讓整個地方直接享受到整個努力的成果。當然水平分配、垂直分配我們都得兼顧，但是在新竹市的部分，我必須要特別幫新竹市發聲，剛才新竹市代表提到100億，坦白說其實是很保守、很客氣的一個說法，因為事實上現在我們完全沒有錢去推大新竹輕軌的部分，然後在縣市當中，新竹縣也提100億，新竹縣、市還有好幾座橋要去做連結，都沒有辦法，光是竹北到科學園區短短一點多公里的路，可能在上班時間會拖到30分鐘，就是因為地方資源不足，沒有辦法讓整個基礎建設進行更好的發展，所以在這邊提出以上的主張。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。我跟委員也報告一下，所得稅在地方直接分成的話，你知道臺北市的所得稅占了全國所得稅的4成，另外，有10個地方政府國稅跟地稅通通給它，都不足以滿足它的財政，所以這要有一個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。我覺得這部分其實是比例上的問題，所以我們希望能夠從垂直分配跟水平分配同時去做考量。"],["莊部長翠雲：是！"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是對於像臺北市、新竹市，因為臺北市確實是所得稅第一高，新竹市是第二高，都碰到這樣的問題，坦白說，臺北市是首都，它有首都特別的分配方式，新竹市在這邊顯然是不夠的，所以我們希望在這一次財劃法修正的過程當中，能夠特別針對新竹市所處的狀態加以進行調整，以上。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員為新竹爭取權益，我們理解，謝謝。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝部長。"],["主席（羅委員明才）：接著請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐委員不在。","請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.68346875,"end":11.438468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.188468750000002,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.88596875,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.76346875,"end":121.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.84721875000001,"end":154.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.92659375000002,"end":192.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.84471875,"end":201.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.20596875,"end":226.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.48909375000002,"end":247.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.90784375,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.52284375000002,"end":256.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.78409375,"end":257.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.60659375,"end":260.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.18846875,"end":263.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.17534375,"end":265.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.23409375,"end":266.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.71909375,"end":269.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.62596875,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.83659375,"end":273.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.84471875,"end":299.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.98596875000004,"end":288.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.84909375,"end":315.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.94784375,"end":326.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.62534375,"end":329.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.62471875,"end":356.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.63346875,"end":362.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.97846875000005,"end":366.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.60659375,"end":389.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.07159375000003,"end":388.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.42159375,"end":478.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.29784375,"end":526.8684687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.684,"end":11.845,"text":"謝謝主席,我要請一下莊部長。委員好。部長好。剛剛聽到我們羅明才召委,其實他把17個縣市的缺口提出來問的時候,其實我覺得很具體。那我這邊大概也要再針對新竹市這個部分,再多做一些補充的一個發言跟爭取。"},{"start":34.813,"end":38.555,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查:「"},{"start":60.908,"end":87.864,"text":"整個新竹這邊新竹市這邊他每一年創稅1800億當時市長提出來的數字是這樣子他覺得得到的統籌分款非常的少所以他認為整個財化法分配不公所以他希望主張從地制法這邊的時候去做合併那最主要合併升格的理由就是因為錢分配不均財化法分配不均這個部分部長應該還有記憶猶新嘛對不對"},{"start":90.862,"end":91.944,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案。"},{"start":106.365,"end":107.186,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案。"},{"start":124.045,"end":126.927,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":141.756,"end":169.739,"text":"限制的平衡、中央地方的平衡還有各縣市當中的平衡是很重要的一個部分是很重要的一個部分那我在想說針對這個部分的時候我要特別提到以新竹市來講的時候剛剛就是新竹市的代表他很客氣地講說他只要再多100億剛剛在我們羅明才招委問的時候新竹市、新竹縣、苗栗都提100億其實坦白說非常的保守我們剛剛"},{"start":170.68,"end":180.208,"text":"公共交通運輸只佔6.1%,大部分都靠自己的一個交通工具,這真的是很不夠的。所以說以這個情況之下,我們需要有很好的公共交通"},{"start":192.958,"end":200.502,"text":"系統進來。」我給部長看一下我們大新竹建設大新竹輕軌這是中央的一個計畫"},{"start":203.237,"end":226.44,"text":"基本上我們看光換錢的部分就好因為今天財政委員這邊在提新竹市這邊他要自己負擔就要197.6億總預算354.82億那麼工程款包括自償非自償的部分還有用地費整個加起來就要197.6億坦白說新竹市根本負擔不起"},{"start":227.58,"end":253.512,"text":"所以你會發現有很多的計劃跟建設中央在推地方的配額款永遠跟不上以新竹市坦白說整個財務結構都算是比較優等的一個縣市的時候都還沒有辦法分配的時候那其他的縣市就更慘那在這個情況之下的時候我再舉一個我們在5月底的新竹市發生大火"},{"start":254.472,"end":255.313,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":271.889,"end":293.166,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法"},{"start":299.895,"end":314.44,"text":"那針對新竹市這個部分我給部長稍微講一下這是112年度的一個數字全國的所得稅一兆8346億新竹市貢獻了3067億佔16.7%可是新竹市112年的統籌分配稅款在全國4227億當中只分配到63.5億只佔了1.5%部長你覺得這樣子合理嗎"},{"start":331.527,"end":332.027,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":352.197,"end":354.919,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":374.693,"end":389.973,"text":"運輸的一些建設。」這個我們都可以理解。那所以在我們在這個過程當中也一直都在修。那另外就是說雖然中央統籌分配稅款財劃法沒有修但是一般性的補助款跟計劃型的補助款中央都還是在役助的。這個部分齁"},{"start":390.694,"end":391.574,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":405.959,"end":408.862,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具"},{"start":429.402,"end":440.873,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政"},{"start":447.219,"end":465.515,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法有部分的比例能夠留在地方那本席這邊會提一個修正動議我提出是25%那至於能夠有多少%我覺得我們大家可以討論可是因為以目前我們看起來就新竹市在整個中央"},{"start":466.175,"end":493.317,"text":"所得稅的貢獻度跟統籌分法真的是不成比例我們希望能夠有適當的一個所得稅的比例能夠留在地方然後能夠讓整個地方直接享受到整個努力的一個成果那當然水平分配垂直分配我們都得兼顧但新竹市這個部分我必須要特別幫新竹市發聲剛剛新竹市代表提到說一百億坦白說其實是很"},{"start":493.837,"end":513.609,"text":"保守很客氣的一個說法因為事實上我們現在對整個大新竹輕軌的部分完全沒有錢去推這個部分然後縣市當中新竹縣也提100億新竹縣市當中還有好幾座橋要去做連結都沒有辦法現在光是竹北到科學園區短短可能一點多公里的路"},{"start":515.151,"end":526.031,"text":"上班時間會拖到30分鐘。」這個就是因為整個地方資源不足,沒有辦法讓整個基礎建設做更好的一個發展。所以在這邊提出以上的主張。"}]}},{"id":"153456","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153456","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7070ec6ef67a6379ff259c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c7aa5c94164d5158c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:54:02 - 11:01:59","影片長度":"00:07:57","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:54:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T11:01:59+08:00","duration":477,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時54分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳主委，還有黃部長。"],["主席：陳主委，還有黃部長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：主委、部長，早安。因為王義川先生在5月27號上政論節目的時候說，針對青鳥行動還有519民眾黨的活動有做人流的分析，他的這個發言內容引發了大家對於電信數據分析使用的一些爭議。事實上，我們看到電信大數據分析的運用是有例可循的，而且是目前科技時代在數據使用上的一部分，包括新北也好、臺北也好，有關耶誕城活動、跨年晚會，或者是有關交通部對於智慧道路交通及壅塞路段的大數據分析，或者是有關內政部對於全國電信信令人口的統計資料等等，都會運用電信數據的分析。不過我想今天大家的爭議點可能是在於這個電信資料分析的使用有沒有去侵犯到人民個人的權益，事實上，我想個人資料保護是一個重要的人權，這是不容侵犯的，所以我們也希望政府機關或者是一般的人民都一定要有這樣的觀念，而且我們政府機關也一定要堅守這樣的原則。所以我先請教一下主委，有關電信大數據分析的運用，就主管機關的立場，我們的規範如何？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，依照電管法第十七條，還有我們有一個個人資料維護辦法，我們要求電信業者，他們本來就有所謂的個人資料維護計畫，我們依照這個計畫會定期去稽核，要求它落實內控。另外，在行動寬頻的服務契約裡面，對於這個部分業者也要規劃清楚，而且要明確告知當事人。"],["陳委員素月：好，就是我們有一定的規範，在這樣一個規範下的數據資料，剛剛主委在回答其他委員質詢時有提到，這個是可以透過申請、購買的管道取得。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果已經變成數據的話，個資不可以，個資如果要變數據還要經過去識別化，而且要做不可回逆的處理才可以。"],["陳委員素月：就是一定要去識別化，那我在這邊再請教一下，就您的瞭解，針對王義川他這樣子的發言，他曾經跟相關的電信公司取得相關的資料嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就我們在5月30號的調查，三大電信業者都表示並沒有這種情況出現，所以王義川先生並沒有跟他們取得或是購買相關的資料。"],["陳委員素月：沒有跟三大電信業者取得，那有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個可能要問王義川先生才知道，因為做大數據分析的除了電信公司以外還有很多的民間，比如說資訊服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種，他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析，公關公司裡面蠻多的。"],["陳委員素月：就是民間也有業者做這種分析。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["陳委員素月：可是我們來思考一個問題，他在5月27號上節目談論，5月24號是禮拜五，25、26號短短的兩天有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎？就黃部長您瞭解的話，我們的民間業者有這個能力做相關的分析嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：所以我剛才講，資料散布在不同的系統，你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可，那會有行政的流程，我個人覺得這個時間，而且剛剛講有幾萬筆的資料要做去識別化，而且要做這些統計分析，應該沒辦法那麼快做得到。"],["陳委員素月：應該沒有辦法。"],["黃部長彥男：對，技術上可行，但時間上，包括行政流程、包括拿到許可、包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料，而且是從很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆，再比對，我覺得這個應該會有其困難度，這是我從技術面的判斷。"],["陳委員素月：就NCC陳主委跟黃部長所回復的，就管理單位來說，相關的三大業者也沒有提供；就技術層面來說，在短短的兩天之內要做出來，而且這個還要經過管理機關的同意，包括基地臺、服務的用戶號碼等等，這些取得不是那麼容易，所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門，不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入司法調查的程序，我們就留待司法單位去做進一步的偵查跟瞭解。","在這邊本席要針對有關資安的問題，不管是個人資料的保護，這個是不變的一個原則，其實國家資安也是非常的重要，我們也希望不分朝野，對於個人資料保護的重視還有資安的重視，我們應該都是要一致的。我們知道有關抖音（TikTok）或者小紅書的使用，目前我們看到美國媒體也有揭露，證實TikTok大約是每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資，這些資料包括美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計訊息，抖音的前員工也有證實他們會把用戶的個資傳回中共，所以對於個資的侵害是非常嚴重，我們也希望國內不分朝野、不分政府及人民都要共同面對跟重視這樣的一個問題。因為TikTok在我們臺灣沒有落地，它未來也不可能配合落地，在目前這樣的狀況之下，我們數發部對於TikTok相關訊息的使用，我們有沒有什麼強制手段去做一個維護？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，在我們的打詐法通過後會要求他們落地，如果不落地，我們就根據打詐法來處置，這個處置方法可以包括……反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制它，所以我們還是期待先用法律要求他們落地，若是落地不配合，我們再根據處罰辦法來處置。"],["陳委員素月：好，我想TikTok的危害真的非常大，我們也希望未來主管機關和相關機關要有更積極的一些作為，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳素月委員的發言。","我們現在處理臨時提案，本日共有2案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","案由：","日前民進黨政策委員會執行長王義川先生，於政論節目公開宣稱可使用手機訊號交叉比對太陽花運動、青鳥行動與519民眾黨集會參與者之異同，其發言如下：","「有些是小草，有些是太陽花的，占了整個活動的六成。我們用手機去看他們的年齡，差不多六成。二十歲以下的，大概占了一成二，所以大概有七成二是七十歲以下的。」「第二個，這些人跟原來的小草，我們有去比對過，他跟原來這個五一七（口誤，應是五一九）在民進黨樓下的那些小草的訊號比起來，也不同人，就是說小草也沒跑，但是這一批人跟上次我們選舉，一月十三日選前之夜的人比對，也沒關係。」","其後在面對記者提問時，又有以下發言：","「平常大型的活動，都有這些市場調查公司在做，包括最近的這些活動，也都有人在做，那當然去對應到的是手機的門號，那門號有沒有重疊，門號有沒有這一個出現、停留多久，大概都可以通（過）這些資訊能夠得到，所以這個是業界經常用的一個方法。」","在無正當法律授權之前提下，取得未去識別化之群眾資料，用於政治偵防與群眾運動之數據分析，恐違反通訊保障及監察法、個人資料保護法等相關法規，實有違我國人權保障之意旨，更有損我國自由民主之國家形象。爰此，為釐清爭議，請國家通訊傳播委員會於一個月內清查近三屆總統副總統、直轄市長及縣市長選舉期間，國內政治活動之群眾個資，是否遭不當使用或有外洩之虞，向交通委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：魯明哲　　黃健豪　　林沛祥　　林國成　　廖先翔","二、","數位時代，政府與民間企業就因業務蒐集之民眾個人資料，進行去識別化後之合理運用，有助於企業行銷與服務價值創新，也可以作為政府城市治理與政策規劃參考。惟數據之運用須嚴格遵守保護資料之保護。我國雖通過個人資料保護法，但仍欠缺對個資運用之監管制度與明確規範，亦未規定去識別化及合理運用個資之範圍。不但造成民眾個資外洩隱憂，政府或業者運用相關資料時亦無所適從。綜上，提案要求個人資料保護委員會籌備處，會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部及相關機關，就政府機關與民間業者之個資運用規定、去識別化、合理運用範圍及監管機制等事項，建立完整制度，並每三個月以書面向立法院交通委員會提出進度報告，以利國家數位發展與個資保護。","提案人：林國成　　林沛祥　　魯明哲　　黃健豪"],["主席：請問各位委員，第一案有沒有意見？沒有喔！有嗎？沒有就通過了，請通傳會來說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：主席、各位委員，大家好。關於臨時提案第一案，我們修正建議的部分請各位委員酌參。我們建議第一個，因為這要相關的資料，以數目字來講，範圍滿廣的，所以建議時間上可不可以給我們三個月？而且我們剛才也有請教過這些相關的電信業者，他們的資料大概是以最近一年內為主。另外，剛才提案後面有寫「國內政治活動之群眾個資」，因為個資的範圍非常非常大，本會負責監理的是屬於行動通訊業者所持有的個資，所以我們修正建議是加入「3家行動電信事業系統所持有之個資，是否遭不當使用或有外洩之虞，向交通委員會提交書面報告。」以上是修正建議。"],["主席：你這個要三個月幹什麼啊？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有……"],["主席：我告訴你喔！十五天就弄好了，我又沒有向你要什麼東西，有向你要什麼嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，報告委員……"],["主席：我有跟你說要清查以前總統副總統、直轄市長選舉的什麼東西嗎？那已經是過去的事情了，你也講查不到資料了，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對，所以……"],["主席：這裡面是講你有沒有去介入這裡面的問題，有就有，沒有就沒有，你就打死不認帳啊！你會承認嗎？你會承認嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，報告委員……"],["主席：你報告還沒寫，我就已經知道你的報告要寫什麼了，我告訴你啦！對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我們的資料只有通訊業者。"],["主席：這要三個月喔？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果委員覺得……"],["主席：我跟你講，十五天就夠了。"],["李委員昆澤：報告召委，這個資料它也是要向三大業者索取，你跟公家機關……"],["主席：三大業者會承認嗎？"],["李委員昆澤：公家機關你可以要求十五天內、一個月內要交出……"],["主席：昆澤召委，我跟你報告，三大業者會承認啦！承認的話，準備明天去坐牢，我跟你講啦！它不會承認、打死不認帳，就跟你去外面偷女人一樣的道理，你會跟老婆講嗎？不可能講，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員……"],["李委員昆澤：在行政程序上……"],["主席：打死不認帳的事情。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個資料還要整理一下，我們……"],["主席：整理什麼呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為電信業者來……"],["主席：一個月你都弄不出來，要三個月喔？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：看時間上能不能比較充裕一點來處理。"],["主席：等一下、等一下，你要幾個月？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是建議三個月。"],["主席：等一下，哪位委員要發言？李昆澤召委先發言。"],["李委員昆澤：我講過了。"],["主席：你講過了。請魯明哲委員。"],["林委員國成：報告主席！"],["主席：好，你先講，沒關係。"],["林委員國成：他說三個月，就是折衷兩個月就好了。"],["主席：等一下，發言完畢再說。魯明哲委員先講。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝主席。其實其他的文字修正，我覺得我們都可以接受，「三屆總統副總統」改成「一年內之」，我覺得這個我們可以接受，針對個資的範圍就「3家行動電信事業」的部分，我覺得也OK。但是多久提報告，我覺得改成三個月，要不要改成在陳耀祥卸任兩個月之後提報告啊？"],["主席：卸任以後啊？"],["魯委員明哲：不是！三個月？因為目前看起來不知道……"],["主席：對啊！三個月之後，陳主委你已經走人了。"],["魯委員明哲：對，所以一個月的意思就是說……"],["主席：你又推喔？"],["魯委員明哲：我們希望在這個任期之內，因為現在6月了，一個月之內能夠提供給我們這樣的一個報告。"],["主席：7月底以前。"],["魯委員明哲：好不好？不要……"],["主席：但他7月31號提出來，8月1號走人了，還不是一樣的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我只是一個過客而已，我走之後，NCC還是在。"],["主席：什麼過客？你是主任委員，還過客？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我7月31號……"],["主席：你早一點講嘛！你早一點講，我們早一點把你幹掉。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我7月31號就屆期了，這還要留給我們委員這邊，可不可以讓我們同仁整理一下資料？"],["主席：好，蔡其昌委員發言。智強兄，你等一下。"],["蔡委員其昌：行政機關要兩個月、三個月，本席沒有什麼特別意見，但是既然要叫他們寫報告，我是覺得只有針對政治活動、選舉活動的這種個資等等，這樣不夠啦！我覺得應該要直接……就像本席剛剛質詢特別提到的，關於資料的運用，地方政府也在用、公司行號也在用，到底什麼東西可以用、什麼東西不可以用，我覺得這個報告應該要含括除了魯明哲委員所提的這些資料以外，既然給他比較多的時間，所以本席建議應該要把態樣用出來讓立法院瞭解，也讓社會瞭解現在這些資訊的販售及運用。我看到太多，包括全臺灣各地的地方政府，不論是藍執政、綠執政，大家都在運用這些大數據的資訊，我看公司行號也在運用，所以這個報告裡面應該詳細述明什麼叫做大數據可運用的範圍、什麼是不可以被運用的，我覺得這些態樣也請在這個報告裡面一併讓立法院及社會大眾瞭解，這樣對個資的保護才全面，我們談這個不是只有限於政治的活動或者是選舉，我認為這樣不是太充足。"],["主席：不過，副院長，他主要在凸顯這次侵犯人權所涉及到的政治活動，主要是這個，如果把其他的態樣、其他的資料全都放進來的話，反而無法凸顯政治活動，我們所提的主題會偏離了，他會寫一本書，但其中可能只有一、兩頁是牽涉到這裡面……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有，主席，這個我沒有意見，因為你有個人、朝野政黨、各委員有各自的立場，我都尊重，本席是要把我的意見講清楚……"],["主席：我知道。"],["蔡委員其昌：對人權的侵犯問題，我們今天很簡單，今天大家談的是什麼，大家談的是希望個資保護，不要侵犯人權，對人權的保障等，我認為這個題目就像我剛剛的質詢，我也再一次強調，我不把主席的格局做小嘛！我認為主席是一個很有格局、大格局的人……"],["主席：沒有、沒有，我小格……"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我想主席是對於整體國家人權的保障、個資的保護，應該站在這個角度，我們來做一個全面性的檢討，當然你要檢討個案，本席也不反對，我剛剛已經講過了。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝副院長。","羅智強委員。"],["羅委員智強：大家都知道，我對陳耀祥主委向來沒有什麼正面評價，今天我第一次正式的肯定你，為什麼呢？你赤裸裸的陽謀很簡單嘛！3個月後你就拍拍屁股走人嘛！那為什麼我肯定你？因為你也知道不要幫王義川背書嘛！你也不想蹚這混水，可能也跟你沒有關係。可是我要特別講，今天王義川變身為天眼局，對人民做政治偵防，這是直接侵害民主的核心，也侵害人民的權益，所以我覺得雖然陳主委可能不想要幫王義川擔，但是人民等得起這3個月嗎？人民其實想要的是一個儘快的答案，抱歉！我覺得不只是人民喔！這個提案我非常贊成，我覺得檢察機關也應該要動起來了吧！現在王義川已經在改口、在串供啦！已經在改口啦！從天眼局變成膝蓋局啊！現在已經說是用膝蓋想，我說三大電信可以廢了啦！三大電信公司你們比不過王義川的膝蓋啦！你們還要一堆程序才能夠申請到基地臺的資料，然後去比對手機訊號才能夠做識別化的訊息或去識別化的訊息。王義川不用啦！他用膝蓋就可以了啦！他用膝蓋就可以了。","這邊我也要跟民進黨呼籲一下，你們不要忘了王義川不只是王義川啊！王義川是民進黨政策會執行長，也是民進黨不分區的立委，名單上接下來排行就是他啦！下一個就是他了啦！我想請問民進黨你還要集體護航王義川嗎？所以這邊我肯定陳耀祥，為什麼今天特別講3個月？期間算的剛剛好，3個月後陳耀祥就拍拍屁股走人了，雖然你不想要幫王義川背書，但是抱歉！我覺得你還是要幫人民把關，以上。"],["主席：好，許智傑委員。"],["許委員智傑：主席，大家好。我還是呼應一下剛才蔡其昌委員提到的，我們希望什麼是可以合法去買，什麼是要去識別化，你要把這樣一個方向、大數據的狀況等整體的資料很清楚地告訴國人，就像我剛才的質詢一樣。今天不管是不是政治、是不是商業，任何人要去買大數據資料，就是有權力可以去買，這就是商業嘛！那今天人民會覺得恐慌，要如何去識別化，你把它訂在條約裡面，或者是訂在契約裡面，或者是很清楚讓人民知道你的所作所為完全就是大數據的提供，任何個人的資料如果有被洩漏就法律處理，很清楚！這個就是一個正常的行為嘛！但是要要求如何讓人民不擔心、可以合法去購買，我覺得應該是要整體考量，所以剛剛蔡其昌委員提到的，我認為三大電信要給我們一個這樣子的交代。"],["主席：好，謝謝許智傑委員。","陳素月委員發言，下面游顥委員，還有翁曉玲委員。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝主席。對於個人資料保護是基本的人權，這個都是不容侵犯的，所以我也呼應蔡其昌副院長的主張，就是我們對於資料的保護要有一致性。針對王義川的言論，目前都已經進入司法調查的程序了，所以我們也不宜再討論，我們也希望對於民主的價值，都要來共同捍衛及維護。剛剛陳主委提到他是一個過客，我想他要凸顯的就是制度是一定的，每一個人在這個位置上都是來來去去，所以我們就是一定要捍衛這樣的民主制度，我希望不分朝野都要共同有這樣的想法跟主張，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝何素月委員。","下面游顥委員。"],["游委員顥：謝謝召委。本席在這邊還是……"],["陳委員素月：等一下，我先……主席，你給我改姓啊？"],["主席：什麼？"],["陳委員素月：你給我改姓！"],["主席：陳素月委員，對不起！對不起！"],["陳委員素月：主席還沒睡醒喔？"],["主席：素月委員對不起！我沒有睡覺。","好，游顥委員。"],["游委員顥：謝謝召委。本席認為王義川的這一案，其實社會大家都在關注，搶救義川天兵這個大家也都在關注，所以剛才不管是藍綠的委員都提到個資很重要，人權不容侵犯，而NCC三個月、兩個月其實都太久了，大家都在共同矚目這個案子到底他是如何取得這些去識別化的資料，所以建議不管是中華電信或是三大電信業者能夠趕快證明清白，應該是要在兩個禮拜之內就要公布報告跟數據了，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位翁曉玲委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：在這邊跟各位委員報告，其實NCC主管的是電信管理法，所以在提案裡面只有說數據分析恐違反通訊保障監察法、個資法等等相關法規，我建議還要再加上電信管理法，也就是「恐違反電信管理法」，並且也要要求這三家電信業者，他們在這段調查的期間裡面販售給其他私人公司這些所有的資料都應該要提報，以上建議。"],["主席：這裡面就是執政黨、反對黨嘛！執政黨講的是人權、公開等等；反對黨講的就是看不見的那隻手啦！如果大數據去買賣OK啦！問題就不是搞買賣嘛！私底下提供嘛！問題出在這裡，你現在要大數據，你要中華電信、要三大業者去提供，你打死他，他也不會認帳啊！所以時間為什麼要3個月，我真搞不懂，是不是陳主委你要退休了？你把時間就如同羅智強委員講的？","好，來。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝主席。我想大家只卡在時間，我想折衷一下啦！3個月不是在會期中間，你突然提個報告，我們也沒開會，我覺得這樣實在不好，最多最多就7月16號，我們現在延會延到7月16號，正好一個半月的時間，剛好今天是2號嘛！就一個半月的時間，好不好？"],["主席：7月16日你也不會來啊！"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，但至少是在會期……"],["主席：他送來都已經5點了。"],["魯委員明哲：我是建議啦！最多最多我們是希望一個月，但是我想最多就一個半月，至少我們在會期的期間能夠拿到這個報告，剩下看主席的裁示。至於如果有其他的公司，甚至政府的大數據資料，我們看到副院長剛剛有提到的，我個人也支持，可能請另外寫一個案，我們的案子就是大概針對這次提到的3個政治運動，所以是跟政治有關的，其他的部分我們都尊重，就另外再提案，我們也會支持，好不好？那時間是不是裁示一下？"],["主席：陳主委，7月15日好啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：7月15號？"],["主席：7月15號，你不要再講了啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，就7月15號。"],["主席：再講的話，等一下就變成7月3號，現在才6月3號。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，7月15號。"],["主席：這個很快嘛！我告訴你，我當你的下面，10天就提供給你了，你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["主席：你下面是打死不認帳的啦！你放心啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，還有其他電信業者……"],["主席：你把他打死，他都不會認帳啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就7月15號。"],["主席：7月15號好不好？國成兄，這你提的案子嘛？魯明哲委員提的，7月15號好不好？"],["魯委員明哲：可以。"],["主席：7月15號啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，配合辦理。"],["主席：蔡副院長呢？針對這個問題，很單純。"],["蔡委員其昌：我沒意見。"],["主席：蔡副院長所提的可以啦！我們預為防範的話，可以弄一本出來。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告主席，蔡副院長所提的那個在第二案裡面是可以處理啦！第二案裡面有這個部分是可以處理的。"],["主席：我們很尊重蔡副院長啦，好不好？而且他在這邊講話都擲地有聲，我們也不能不尊重，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：在電信這個部分……"],["主席：這樣好不好？阿昌？可以吧？"],["蔡委員其昌：我剛剛已經講了，我後來就沒意見。"],["主席：好，謝謝。第一案……就一個半月嘛！就7月15日前，就這樣就好了，修正這幾個字，其他不動啦！下面是誰改的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，後面，因為我們提供的是行動通信業者所持有的個資，所以這要改，因為我們是三大……"],["主席：那你們念一遍嘛！我沒改啊，是誰改的？是魯委員改的嗎？魯委員它下面有改喔！拿給魯委員看一下，後面是NCC改的。","臨時提案一倒數第四行開始，爰此，為釐清爭議，請國家通訊傳播委員會於7月15日前清查最近一年內之總統副總統、直轄市長及縣市長選舉期間，國內政治活動之群眾個資，3家行動電信事業系統所持有之個資是否遭不當使用或有外洩之虞，向交通委員會提交書面報告。","修正通過，可以啦！","第二案，沒聽清楚就算啦！誰叫他不聽。第二案。"],["林委員國成：提案說明嘛？"],["主席：第二案有沒有委員有意見？"],["林委員國成：我跟各位報告一下，我不同意他們提出修改要6個月，還有什麼只有針對電信業以及手機姓名，我提案主要是建議個人資料保護籌備處要積極去做，要做的問題是除了電信之外，還包括app、LINE這些東西要如何去做保障，我要它在3個月以內做這些，但是這裡我同意，也就是粗字的部分，提案要求行政院敬邀，就是因為資料保護委員會籌備處的人員比較少，所以我們把它加在敬邀行政院與個人資料保護籌備處會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位部及有關單位，原來籌備處修改的這個，原則性我是不同意。我是同意他們人不夠，我們就請行政院，敬邀行政院來籌措，把各有關單位去做……原則性我還是保持3個。"],["主席：林國成委員，你改的版本我們看不到啊！"],["林委員國成：有啊！"],["主席：每個人都有嗎？"],["林委員國成：有，每一個人都有啊！"],["主席：你念了老半天，我一個字都找不到。"],["林委員國成：沒有經過提案人你們就去修改，這樣不尊重嘛！"],["主席：倒數第七行有沒有？倒數第七行提案要求這邊勾進去，提案要求「行政院邀集」個人資料保……是行政院來邀集啊？"],["林委員國成：對！"],["主席：行政院邀集也很奇怪耶！行政院誰？院長啊？他怎麼跟你邀集這個？"],["林委員國成：這個個人資料保護……"],["主席：不是，國成兄，你說提案要求行政院邀集，行政院那就秘書長喔？"],["林委員國成：沒有，我特別跟主席報告，原來我是要求個人資料保護籌備處他們來做。"],["主席：我知道。"],["林委員國成：如果是這樣，行政院可以拿掉。"],["主席：個人資料保護委員會籌備處是去年成立的嘛，是不是？"],["鄭副主任其昀：是。"],["主席：掛牌？那這樣你們單位要幹什麼？"],["鄭副主任其昀：主席，我可以說明一下。"],["主席：你們就要去負責溝通協調的工作啊！"],["鄭副主任其昀：跟主席報告一下，應該是不用行政院，應該是我們籌備處來就可以了，這個先說明一下，不用到行政院。"],["主席：你說什麼？"],["鄭副主任其昀：這個部分就是維持原提案，就是由我們來會同相關的機關就可以了，所以建議可以不用到行政院。"],["主席：不用行政院。"],["林委員國成：好，就把行政院拿掉，照我的原案……"],["主席：你會同各機關？各機關不是不同意嗎？"],["鄭副主任其昀：當然我們會盡力啦……"],["主席：什麼盡力？這是臨時提案的決議，我們要決議了，你還在盡力？沒有盡力的問題！"],["鄭副主任其昀：我們會依照決議會同相關機關處理，第二個部分是針對……"],["主席：等一下，通傳會有沒有問題？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：會同這個部分沒問題。"],["主席：它會同你們。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["主席：還有數位發展部，有沒有問題？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有問題。"],["主席：沒問題？那這張都沒有問題嘛，誰講有問題？","請副院長。"],["蔡委員其昌：國成兄的提案基本上沒有什麼問題，但這裡面的問題在哪裡？就是國成兄如果按照他的原提案，今天這些部會恐怕不夠，因為個資的保護等等這些問題，只要它有蒐集過你資訊的行業通通要保護嘛！所以我看行政單位的建議，把它在所謂電信跟手機的信號嘛，對不對？因為你談這些個資保護，主席，三百六十五行各行業都有個資保護，你只要申請任何一個東西都可能有個資的問題，所以你要把它……你不單要會同國家通傳會，你連會同經濟部、會同所有各部會，等於所有各部會你都要了嘛？","所以我的意思就是，如果針對電信，那就是電信業者手機的這些問題嘛？如果你要談的是個資保護，這個國家全部都要來了……"],["主席：那很多啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：可能不只是6個月，可能要1年、2年了。"],["主席：國成兄，副院長也是好意啦！因為你那牽涉太廣，你不如就寫「就政府機關與民間業者」的部分改為「優先」啦！「優先就電信業者」這樣就單純了嘛？「優先就電信業者之手機信令」，信什麼令啊？訊號啦！之手機信號，這樣就好了嘛？那六個月不要啦！三個月啦！"],["林委員國成：主席，我再度建議，個人資料保護委員會籌備處要做的是很廣大的這些個資的問題，它現在要求我去把它改為只有電信，這裡面沒有app也沒有什麼其他，所以……"],["主席：包含啦！"],["林委員國成：所以這個部分，我說實在的，就變成NCC跟數位部他們只做他們的，那其他都不要做嗎？所以我的意思就你可以優先去做什麼，但你還是要有個資保護，所以我提這個案當然會很大、很廣，但是是你個人資料保護籌備處的責任嘛！"],["主席：好、好、好。"],["林委員國成：你知道嗎？是責任嘛！所以我還是建議……"],["蔡委員其昌：主席，我來幫國成兄再修正一下啦！應該是這樣說，其中有一段就不要了，「數位發展部及相關機關，就」……"],["主席：在第幾行？"],["蔡委員其昌：就是不用講政府機關跟民間業者啦！你就直接，他要的就是那個架構嘛！就是「會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部及相關機關，就個資運用規定、去識別化、合理運用範圍及監管機制等事項」，這樣對不對，國成兄？"],["林委員國成：這樣可以啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：好，就這樣。"],["主席：可以了嗎？"],["林委員國成：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：這樣對了嘛！"],["主席：好，還是三個月，不是六個月？"],["林委員國成：三個月啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：原來的三個月可以啦！"],["主席：好，這個要表決嗎？"],["蔡委員其昌：不用啦！"],["主席：你們既然雙方都甲動了，表決一下好了嘛！通通都甲動了，來這邊不表決舉手一下，不好玩啊！好啦！就修正文字通過。","臨時提案處理完畢，如果有委員對上述提案補簽的話，列入紀錄並刊登公報。","一、","案由：","日前民進黨政策委員會執行長王義川先生，於政論節目公開宣稱可使用手機訊號交叉比對太陽花運動、青鳥行動與519民眾黨集會參與者之異同，其發言如下：","“有些是小草，有些是太陽花的，占了整個活動的六成。我們用手機去看他們的年齡，差不多六成。廿歲以下的，大概占了一成二，所以大概有七成二是七十歲以下的。」「第二個，這些人跟原來的小草，我們有去比對過，他跟原來這個五一七（口誤，應是五一九）在民進黨樓下的那些小草的訊號比起來，也不同人，就是說小草也沒跑，但是這一批人跟上次我們選舉，一月十三日選前之夜的人比對，也沒關係。”","其後在面對記者提問時，又有以下發言：","“平常大型的活動，都有這些市場調查公司在做，包括最近的這些活動，也都有人在做，那當然去對應到的是手機的門號，那門號有沒有重疊，門號有沒有這一個出現、停留多久，大概都可以通（過）這些資訊能夠得到，所以這個是業界經常用的一個方法”","在無正當法律授權之前提下，取得未去識別化之群眾資料，用於政治偵防與群眾運動之數據分析，恐違反通訊保障及監察法，個人資料保護法等相關法規，實有違我國人權保障之意旨，更有損我國自由民主之國家形象。爰此，為釐清爭議，請國家通訊傳播委員會於一個月內清查近三屆總統副總統，直轄市長及縣市長選舉期間，國內政治活動之群眾個資，是否遭不當使用或有外洩之虞，向交通委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：魯明哲　　邱若華　　黃健豪　　林沛祥　　林國成　　廖先翔","二、","數位時代，政府與民間企業就因業務蒐集之民眾個人資料，進行去識別化後之合理運用，有助於企業行銷與服務價值創新，也可以作為政府城市治理與政策規劃參考。惟數據之運用須嚴格遵守保護資料之保護。我國雖通過個人資料保護法，但仍欠缺對個資運用之監管制度與明確規範，亦未規定去識別化及合理運用個資之範圍。不但造成民眾個資外洩隱憂，政府或業者運用相關資料時亦無所適從。綜上，提案要求個人資料保護委員會籌備處，會同國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部及相關機關，就政府機關與民間業者之個資運用規定、去識別化、合理運用範圍及監管機制等事項，建立完整制度，並每三個月以書面向立法院交通委員會提出進度報告，以利國家數位發展與個資保護。","提案人：林國成　　林沛祥　　邱若華　　魯明哲　　黃健豪"],["主席：繼續請翁曉玲委員。素月委員對不起，剛才我明明要喊陳素月委員，怎麼弄錯了，對不起、對不起！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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ext":"謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委還有黃部長主委還有部長早安就是有關於因為王一川先生在5月27號上政論節目的時候針對這個青鳥行動還有519的這個就是這個民眾黨的一個活動"},{"start":30.9,"end":55.102,"text":"針對他們的這個人流的一個分析所以他的這個發言的內容引發了大家對於就是電信數據分析的使用的一些爭議那事實上我們看到就是說有關電信大數據的分析的運用是有利可循的而且是目前科技時代我們應該是我們在數據使用上的一部分"},{"start":55.802,"end":81.854,"text":"我們看到包括就是新北也好臺北也好有關這個耶誕城的活動快年晚會或者是有關這個交通部對於這個智慧道路交通擁塞路段的一個大數據的一個分析或者是說有關這個內政部對於就是全國電信信任人口的一個統計資料等等都是就是會運用這個電信數據的一個分析"},{"start":82.754,"end":110.591,"text":"不過我想今天大家的一個爭議點可能就是說對於這個電信資料分析的一個使用有沒有去侵犯到個人人民的一個權益所以事實上我想對於個人資料保護這樣子的是一個重要的人權這是不容侵犯的所以我們也希望就是說政府機關或者是一般我們的人民對這樣子的觀念都一定要有這樣的觀念而且我們政府機關也一定要"},{"start":111.091,"end":111.231,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":125.241,"end":153.244,"text":"報告委員基本上依照我們電管法的第17條還有我們的要求我們有一個叫做那個個人資料維護辦法我們要求電信業者這個他們本來就是有所謂個人資料的維護計畫那我們依照這個計畫會定期去集合要求他們落實那個內控另外一個在這個行動寬屏的服務契約裡面對這個部分我們業者也要規範清楚而且要明確告知當事人"},{"start":154.349,"end":154.97,"text":"如果已經變成那個數據的話"},{"start":179.977,"end":191.93,"text":"對就是一定要去識別化那我在這邊再請教一下就是說針對王逸川他這樣子的發言他曾經跟我們就是相關的電信公司取得相關的資料就您的了解"},{"start":192.512,"end":211.439,"text":"我們在5月30日調查三大電信業者都表示並沒有有這種情況出現所以說王宇春先生並沒有跟他們去取得或是購買這些相關的資料是沒有跟我們三大電信業者取得那如果說有可能透過民間業者來取得這些資料嗎"},{"start":212.288,"end":226.965,"text":"這個可能要問王佑川先生才知道因為做大數據分析的基本上來說電信公司以外還有很多的民間比如說資訊服務業或市場調查或者辦活動的這種他們可能都有做這些大數據的分析"},{"start":227.626,"end":228.006,"text":"短短的兩天25、26號我們"},{"start":243.975,"end":260.719,"text":"有辦法去做出這樣子的一個分析嗎?就那個黃部長您瞭解的話我們民間業者有這個能力做這些相關的一個分析嗎?所以我剛才講就是說資料散佈在不同系統那你要使用資料一定要經過一些許可那會有行政的流程"},{"start":261.4,"end":287.357,"text":"那我個人啦我個人覺得這個時間而且剛剛講幾萬筆資料要去做去識別化而且要再做這些統計分析應該沒辦法那麼快做得到應該沒有辦法對技術上可行但時間上包括行政流程包括要拿到許可包括技術上再去運作幾萬筆資料的而且是從這個很大的數據裡面去找出這幾萬筆再比對我覺得這個應該會有它的困難度"},{"start":291.159,"end":309.813,"text":"這是我的從技術面判斷就我們NCC陳素月跟法務部長這邊所回覆的就是說就我們管理單位那個相關的這個三大業者也沒有提供那我們就技術層面來說在短短的幾天之內兩天之內要做這樣子而且這個還要經過"},{"start":311.534,"end":333.054,"text":"關於機關的同意包括基地台服務的用戶號碼等等這些取得不是那麼容易所以就這個部分來說真的還是一個羅生門不過因為這件案子目前也已經進入了司法調查的程序我們就留待司法單位去做進一步的偵查跟了解"},{"start":333.755,"end":348.741,"text":"那在這邊本席要針對就是說事實上有關這個資安的問題不管是個人資料的一個保護這個是不變的一個原則然後即使國家資安也是非常的一個重要那我們也希望就是說我們"},{"start":349.421,"end":349.741,"text":"﹚陳素月"},{"start":368.291,"end":381.432,"text":"大約每14天就會向中國北京公司傳送數十萬美國用戶的個資包括這些資料包括美國用戶的姓名、電子郵件還有IP地址及地理人口的統計訊息"},{"start":383.935,"end":404.709,"text":"然後抖音的前員工也有證實就是說這些他們會把用戶的個資傳回這個中共所以這個對於我們的這個個資的一個侵害是非常的一個嚴重所以我們也希望我們我們國內不分朝野不分政府人民都要去共同面對跟重視這樣子的一個問題"},{"start":406.05,"end":429.887,"text":"那這個對TikTok因為在我們台灣沒有落地那未來不曉得就是說在這樣子的一個狀況下它如果未來也不可能配合落地那目前這樣子的狀況之下我們書畫部對於TikTok的就是說相關的就是訊息的一個使用我們有沒有什麼強制的手段去做一個維護"},{"start":432.027,"end":459.505,"text":"報告委員就是當然就是說我們這個我們的打就是說我們這樣打造法通過之後會要求他們落地那如果不落地我們就根據打造法來來處置那但這個處置方法可以包括就是包括可能就是反正就是用電信管理的方法來管制他這樣子所以我想這個我們還是期待先用法律先要求他們落地那再從落地不配合我們再來處置這樣根據處罰辦法"},{"start":461.186,"end":461.206,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153455","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7072fca801e25372c0c59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c3aac5e6b56f0ec5f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:46:37 - 10:53:48","影片長度":"00:07:11","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:46:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:53:48+08:00","duration":431,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時46分）謝謝主席。我們請NCC。"],["主席：NCC陳主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：主委，請教你，現在針對個人、不是官方的，其實我們認為請個人來不適合啦，不過我們要整體去思考官方在處理事情的時候到底有什麼原則，符不符合社會的期待，所以針對用大數據去瞭解整個社群的動態，這個在法上是合法的，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，跟委員報告一下，我們在討論個資和數據，其實應該有一點區別，個資去識別化、不可回溯以後，它就會變Big Data的一種，Big Data就是數位經濟、數位產業在運用上非常重要的基礎資料。"],["許委員智傑：好，這個在個人資料保護法我們都有提到。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：另外，其實電信公司在跟個人簽約的時候，這裡有一款是「用戶個人資料蒐集、處理與利用之限制及條件」，也就是說，你在簽電信契約的時候，通常都會簽，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有。"],["許委員智傑：你可以用來做資料蒐集、處理跟利用，有它的限制跟條件，這個也是合法啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對！"],["許委員智傑：不過，這一次像青鳥行動，有一些年輕人會覺得說我會不會被調查，會不會洩漏到我的個資？再以我們官方或者是電信公司的講法都是說：我會給你去識別化，你放心啦！但是事實上，人民就是不放心嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然。"],["許委員智傑：所以我的主張是說，可不可以要求在簽這個契約的時候，比如在第七款「用戶個人資料蒐集、處理與利用之限制及條件」，這個我們都懂，但是人民可能會擔心，你可不可以把「去識別化」加進去？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果要修改，因為第一、委員所講的是電信管理法第十七條的規定，如果有必要的話，我們未來在這種行動寬頻服務契約中把它要求得更清楚，應該是可以去處理。"],["許委員智傑：對，所以我的意思就是說，NCC是不是能夠跟各大電信公司聯絡？我使用你這個資料，如果做大數據是合法的，我們都會口頭講說：你放心，我們都會去識別化，但是這個口頭講的有時候人民在擔心的情況之下，如果你把「去識別化」標明在上面，就代表：你放心，我不可能將個別資料洩漏出去，這個部分如果在條文、在契約裡面有加註這些，我相信人民的不信任感，或覺得個人資料有可能被侵害的情況，那種心態就可以減少，所以這個部分是不是請主委及NCC能夠跟這些電信公司做一個整體的溝通？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以、是。"],["許委員智傑：然後把「去識別化」的字白紙黑字寫到裡面去，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，這本來就可以。"],["許委員智傑：雖然我們會覺得大家都會這麼做，但是為了減少疑慮、為了減少不信任，我們就直接把它標註在裡面，這個應該沒問題吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們找電信業者來討論相關的契約範本要怎麼去修改的問題。"],["許委員智傑：OK！這個應該不用兩個月嘛！不用一個半月？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：還是給我們兩個月……"],["許委員智傑：兩個月你卸任了，我希望你卸任前把它完成。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：兩個月，差不多啦，大概差不多……"],["許委員智傑：現在是6月初嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，6月初。"],["許委員智傑：主委7月底卸任嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對。"],["許委員智傑：7月底替人民再做一件有意義的事。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，我們馬上去處理，我們儘快來處理，不過委員還是給我們兩個月的時間好不好？我們馬上處理。"],["許委員智傑：兩個月你就卸任了，再一個半月。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我卸任了，還有其他的主委。"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，我是覺得你就做一件功德。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，沒問題。"],["許委員智傑：卸任前讓人民知道，你在處理所有的大數據的時候，電信公司也有白紙黑字證明一定會去識別化，所以這部分以後人民就可以少掉這些疑慮。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，避免疑慮。"],["許委員智傑：對啊！你看這些例子，像臺灣燈會在臺中，盧秀燕他們也會去統計所有來參加燈會的人，包括新北耶誕城、臺北跨年晚會，這個人流分析都很正常，對不對？不是針對個人，而是整體來這邊的人的背景、來這邊的年齡層、來這邊的狀況，他們都可以提供大數據做分析。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，我們稱之為輪廓性的資料，比如說20到40、40到60，這樣年紀、性別或是背景等輪廓性的資料是可以的。"],["許委員智傑：這個其實都是合法可以做分析，合法可以去買的嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，沒錯。"],["許委員智傑：今天如果我許智傑個人有興趣，我也可以去跟電信公司說我要買你們這一部分的大數據資料。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，不過就我瞭解，現在電信公司通常還是商業用途，如果有政治性的，他們比較會有疑慮。"],["許委員智傑：商業用途完全沒有疑慮，政治性的他們會考量？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他們會考量這個數據要不要……"],["許委員智傑：如果去識別化，我是覺得不管誰去買都是屬於商業。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯，所以比如說……"],["許委員智傑：比如我個人想要瞭解臺灣燈會，我個人想要瞭解臺北市跨年晚會的人流分析。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以他們很難做區別。"],["許委員智傑：這沒有什麼政治性，這是我個人想要瞭解，你有做這個大數據的分析，我就花錢買嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯，這個在做公共政策上是很大的用途。"],["許委員智傑：所以這個應該讓國人很清楚，大數據的部分只要你是用商業的角度，誰都可以去買，而且誰去買的資料都完全100%去識別化，你放心，這樣子大家就很清楚啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：這個部分希望主委7月底前能夠把這件事情完成。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["許委員智傑：7月底前如果再有質詢的機會，如果沒有的話也把結果給我辦公室。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們會用書面來跟委員會回復。"],["許委員智傑：就是說這一個部分我們已經很確實白紙黑字改過了，我覺得這個真的是一件功德，讓人民不用擔心，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員的發言。下一位請陳素月委員發言，陳素月委員發言完畢以後我們處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Data就是我們數位經濟數位產業在運用的一個非常重要的基礎資料"},{"start":73.3,"end":98.74,"text":"好,那這個在個人資料保護法這個我們都有提到是那另外就是說其實電信公司在跟個人簽約的時候這裡有一條是說用戶個人資料收集在底下那一條處理或利用的限制跟條件對也就是說你在簽這個電信的契約的時候通常都會簽嘛對不對有"},{"start":99.821,"end":112.953,"text":"那你可以用來做資料收集處理跟利用他有他的限制跟條件那這個也是合法啦那不過這一次像青鳥行動那有一些年輕人還會覺得說我會被"},{"start":116.255,"end":136.711,"text":"會被調查那會不會洩漏到我的個資那在以我們的官方或者是電信公司的講法是說我都會跟你去世別番你放心啦但是事實上人民就是不放心嘛當然所以我的主張是說可不可以要求在簽這個契約的時候比如說在這個第7條是"},{"start":138.112,"end":164.925,"text":"用戶個人資料收集處理及利用之限制條件這個是我們都懂但是人民可能會擔心那你可不可以把這個去識別化把它加進去如果要修改因為第一個委員所講是電信管理第17條這個規定那如果有必要的話我們在未來這種行動寬頻的服務契約把它要求得更清楚應該是可以去處理所以我的意思就是NCC能夠跟各大電信公司聯絡就是說"},{"start":167.401,"end":193.287,"text":"我使用你這個資料如果做大數據是合法的我們都會口頭講說你放心我們都會去世別化但是這個口頭講的有時候人民在擔心的情況之下如果你把它去世別化就把它標明在上面嘛你放心嘛我就不可能個別資料給你寫到出去這樣那這個部分如果有加注這些在條文裡面在契約裡面我相信人民的那一個"},{"start":194.696,"end":214.572,"text":"我覺得不信任感或覺得有可能個人資料被侵害的心態就可以減少所以這個部分是不是請主委能夠我們NCC能夠跟這些電信公司做一個整體的溝通然後把這個去識別化的字白紙黑字把它寫到裡面去"},{"start":215.862,"end":216.102,"text":"這個應該不用兩個月嗎?"},{"start":238.602,"end":257.712,"text":"不用一個半月我希望你卸任前把它完成現在是六月初嘛主委七月底卸任嘛七月底替人民再做一件有意義的事我們是馬上去處理我們盡快來處理還是給我們兩個月的時間好不好我們就去處理啦兩個月你就卸任啦"},{"start":264.235,"end":264.515,"text":"臺灣燈會在台中"},{"start":292.734,"end":305.703,"text":"如秀苑他們有去統計嗎?是。我來這邊的人所有的來參加燈會包括新北耶誕城包括台北跨年晚會這個人流分析都很正常。是。對不對?我的背景資料"},{"start":307.031,"end":331.28,"text":"整體的來這邊的背景、來這邊的年齡層、來這邊的狀況他們都可以提供大數據做分析嗎?我們稱之為叫輪廓性的資料就是說比如說20到40、40到60年紀、性別或是一個背景的輪廓性的資料是可以的這個其實都是合法可以做分析、合法可以去買的"},{"start":333.221,"end":349.617,"text":"所以就是說我今天如果我個人有興趣我許智傑個人有興趣我也可以去跟電信公司說我要買你們這一部分的大數據的資料不過現在電信公司就了解來講他們通常還是商業用途的如果比較有正式性的他們比較會有疑慮的"},{"start":351.523,"end":362.77,"text":"商業用途完全沒有疑慮政治性的他們會考量其實如果是你去識別化去識別化我是覺得"},{"start":364.366,"end":382.747,"text":"不管誰去買都是屬於商業嘛對所以說比如說我個人想要了解台灣燈會我個人想要了解台北市跨年晚會的人流的分析是是是所以他們很難做區別因為這沒有什麼政治性嘛這是我個人想要了解嘛那你有做這個大數據的分析我就花錢買嘛"},{"start":383.348,"end":400.358,"text":"沒錯 這個做公共政策上是很大的用途所以應該 這個讓國人很清楚就是說你只要是大數據的部分只要是你用商業的角度誰都可以去買而且誰去買的資料都完全100%去識別犯你放心"},{"start":401.418,"end":428.462,"text":"這樣子大家就很清楚啦所以這個部分希望說主委就是7月底前能夠把這件事情完成你7月底前那個是不是不管是如果再有質詢的機會如果沒有的話也把那個結果給我辦公室我們會用書面來跟那個委員會就是說這一個部分我們已經很確實白石爺是改過了我覺得這個真的是一件功德讓人民不用擔心嘛"},{"start":429.062,"end":430.01,"text":"好不好?好,謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153454","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153454","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707657abf3d9f037ba2b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0cbe210e10d4f307415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"10:41:55 - 10:57:28","影片長度":"00:15:33","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:41:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:57:28+08:00","duration":933,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":516,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（10時41分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，有請莊部長、主計長。部長，你好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：看起來對統籌分配稅款大家都很關切，不過聽起來大家覺得已經25年沒修了，的確有修改的必要性，希望部長能多加油。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的鼓勵，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：希望你也可以名垂青史，讓大家每用一分錢的時候，地方都會想到中央是在照顧地方的。請問中央跟地方的關係，你覺得是老闆、員工，還是夥伴關係，或者親密愛人的關係？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是夥伴關係，很多都要攜手一起努力的。"],["羅委員明才：是，既然是夥伴關係，我們就要成為你好、我好、大家一起好的好夥伴。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["羅委員明才：今天很高興有22縣市財政相關的……財政局都來了，是不是請問一下，要尊重他們的意見，如果不缺錢的，請舉手。部長，大家都缺啊！每個地方都嗷嗷待哺。所以其實也沒有講得那麼複雜，因為你如果問113個立委，有的是不分區的，有的是海外的，有的是比較專業的，他們也沒有辦法說出所以然來，但是22個講完，不就結束了嗎？要尊重他們的感受。所以第一個，當你問他們目前的財務狀況是不是缺的，他們都說是缺的。好，請問裡面覺得已經快窒息、快受不了了、最缺的，請舉手。最缺的，趕快呀！你們舉手就找部長要錢啊！好，很勇敢，那個是哪個地方？"],["陳處長國庭：金門！"],["羅委員明才：金門。所以我們可以感受到缺的是金門。那有沒有不缺的？不缺的，請舉手。好，另外剛才還有一個覺得比較缺的是哪一個地方？我們在考量的時候要給予尊重，因為是夥伴關係。部長，你要多照顧它，照顧金門。還有哪裡比較缺的，請舉手，不要客氣。所以其他的也都不缺？請問舉手的那一位是哪裡？"],["林科長靜娟：南投縣。"],["羅委員明才：南投也缺。所以我們在審查的時候就就事論事，南投缺，我們要多關心它，至少給它多一點，還有另外哪裡？"],["黃副處長淑梅：花蓮。"],["羅委員明才：所以花蓮也是缺的，這三個是缺的，剛剛還有一位。"],["黃副處長湘鈴：新竹。"],["羅委員明才：新竹也缺，OK！還有哪裡？麻煩一下，缺的請上來，報一下自己的縣市，請主席協助一下。"],["主席：各縣市有缺的，歡迎大家都上來報一下，你們既然代表各縣市來就要負責任喔！"],["羅委員明才：你就把地方的心聲藉這個機會講給中央聽，我們委員才知道到底誰有缺，先報一下你的縣市，說一下大概缺多少。"],["鍾副局長智耀：臺北市政府。"],["羅委員明才：臺北市政府缺多少？"],["鍾副局長智耀：因為現在的建設都很多，尤其包括現在的基層校舍改建……"],["羅委員明才：直接講，你希望一年可以多補助多少？"],["鍾副局長智耀：一年多少，這個金額恐怕還是要覈實……"],["羅委員明才：大概？100億、50億都隨便你講，沒關係！"],["鍾副局長智耀：因為建設的需求也是很急，如果可以的話，一年大概多200億。"],["羅委員明才：一年多200億，謝謝臺北市。下一個。"],["簡專門委員雅惠：委員好，我是桃園市政府代表，桃園是最晚升格的直轄市，因為它的統籌加一般性補助款都是六都最低的，一般性補助款的排名甚至排名到第17名、第18名。"],["羅委員明才：所以統籌的部分，你希望一年可以增加多少？"],["簡專門委員雅惠：統籌的部分，因為我們相較臺北市的部分……"],["羅委員明才：大概？"],["簡專門委員雅惠：相較剛剛臺北市代表的發言，其實我們升格以後，這幾年的統籌部分大概少了上千億，其實我們沒有要要求那麼多，希望至少達成跟六都的平均數一樣就好。"],["羅委員明才：平均數大概多少？直接講沒關係！"],["簡專門委員雅惠：平均數大概差了五百多億。"],["羅委員明才：桃園五百多億，謝謝。幫我記一下，反正你們都講，缺多少我們來想辦法，是1,000億、2,000億，這樣才有辦法進行，不然每次大家都天馬行空，講不完的。那麼沒有上來的，謝謝！你們就不要。下一個。"],["蔡科長仕晃：委員好，我是代表新竹縣。"],["羅委員明才：新竹縣差多少？"],["蔡科長仕晃：目前我們的各項建設需求至少都還有缺口大概上百億，所以至少希望有100億以上。"],["羅委員明才：100億，謝謝。下一位。"],["林科長靜娟：委員好，我是南投縣政府代表。因為這幾年南投縣的各項建設也是很多。"],["羅委員明才：沒關係！你們很辛苦，因為觀光都不好，陸客沒來。"],["林科長靜娟：對，沒錯，所以對我們的各項收入其實都影響很大。"],["羅委員明才：你希望增加多少？"],["林科長靜娟：至少要有50億以上。"],["羅委員明才：幾億？"],["林科長靜娟：50億。"],["羅委員明才：好，南投50億，謝謝。下一個。"],["蔣專門委員喬玫：委員好，我是新北市政府代表，新北市真的是人口最多。"],["羅委員明才：沒錯！"],["蔣專門委員喬玫：因為很多各項建設都要支出，所以我們的缺口真的缺很多錢，每年的預算差短也都是差了一百多億，我們的缺口少了五、六百億。"],["羅委員明才：五、六百億，那就600億好了，好不好？部長，請你聽一聽他們的心聲。"],["莊部長翠雲：我在記。"],["羅委員明才：新北是差最多的，以前還是縣的時候覺得縣慘兮兮、嗷嗷待哺，升格成為直轄市以後，比起來真的差太多了，我們沒有接上升格的期待，拜託！請部長在斟酌的時候，新北市的人口又多，每次分配的平均人均都是最低的，以前都是虧待新北很多，這次記得要補回來，拜託！下一位。"],["蔡副局長玉娩：委員好，我是宜蘭縣政府的代表。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝，你差多少？"],["蔡副局長玉娩：宜蘭縣的部分每年的差短大概是七、八十億，最近因為有各項經濟、交通建設……"],["羅委員明才：沒關係，因為人很多，所以你就講數字。"],["蔡副局長玉娩：我們希望可以多多益善，至少140億。"],["羅委員明才：宜蘭140億，謝謝。下一個。"],["黃副處長淑梅：委員好。我是花蓮縣政府的代表。"],["羅委員明才：花蓮是災區。"],["黃副處長淑梅：對，災區，然後也是全國面積最大的，所以我們的基礎工程、道路橋梁還有排水工程是非常複雜。"],["羅委員明才：沒關係，缺多少？"],["黃副處長淑梅：至少100億。"],["羅委員明才：花蓮100億，謝謝。下一位。"],["陳處長國庭：委員好，我是金門縣的代表。"],["羅委員明才：金門缺多少？"],["陳處長國庭：因為金門縣現在連金門大橋還有自來水，像這些在臺灣縣市都是屬於中央負擔的，可是在金門都要由金門負擔，我們希望每年可以增加20億。"],["羅委員明才：20億而已，小事情！我們也聽進去了。下一個。"],["李主任秘書芷玲：委員好，我是臺中市代表，目前來講，臺中市是重大工程齊聚，在最近幾年會有一個大幅度的需求，所以臺中市收支差短的部分大概有300億。"],["羅委員明才：幾億？"],["李主任秘書芷玲：300億。"],["羅委員明才：300億，謝謝，也不多啦！因為我們前幾年的稅收超徵4,500億，我是要幫各地方找錢，再沒有錢再來找我，我還有很多地方可以幫部長找錢的。下一個。"],["張副處長志盟：委員好，我是雲林縣代表，雲林縣每年在雲林縣內爭取的稅收有七百多億，可是雲林縣再加上中央給我們的一般性補助款、特別補助款、統籌分配稅款，統統加進來以後預算只能到400億而已。"],["羅委員明才：所以差多少？"],["張副處長志盟：這個收支的落差我們多貢獻了三百多億，可是雲林縣有一些特別的犧牲，比如六輕重大工業污染的承受……"],["羅委員明才：均衡一下，你覺得你們一年差多少？"],["張副處長志盟：最少100億。"],["羅委員明才：雲林100億，謝謝。下一位。"],["黃副處長湘鈴：委員好，我是新竹市政府的代表，新竹市因為是科學園區的所在地，我們創造了高額的稅收，但是營利事業所得稅和綜合所得稅都是國稅，我們都上繳中央了。"],["羅委員明才：沒錯！"],["黃副處長湘鈴：但是我們新竹市配回的統籌分配稅和一般性補助款的配回率是全國最低的。"],["羅委員明才：好，所以你希望再增加多少統籌稅款？"],["黃副處長湘鈴：因為園區造成的外溢成本，像交通、教育都是我們新竹市負擔，所以希望至少可以增加百億以上，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：100億，謝謝。請登記一下，下一位。"],["李專員惠琴：委員好，我是苗栗縣代表，苗栗縣在菸酒稅這一塊上繳的稅收是比較多的，但是回饋給我們苗栗的相對於其他縣市比起來差異非常大，我們也希望在這個部分可以再多增加給我們差不多100億。"],["羅委員明才：苗栗100億，謝謝。下一個。"],["李科員佳芳：委員好，我是嘉義市的代表，因為嘉義市正在做鐵路高架化，目前因為工程款也是大額增加，自籌需要增加很多，我們正在蓋一個永續綠能循環中心，再加上基本建設等需要，所以缺口大概是100億左右。"],["羅委員明才：100億，好，我會努力，因為黃市長特別關心，這個都不分藍綠，地方就是民眾需要做的，中央就大力支持，所以你們這個部分我也會大力請委員大家支持，謝謝。"],["李科員佳芳：感謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：下一位。"],["廖科員于萱：委員好，我是基隆市代表。現在我們的捷運也還正在蓋，需要大筆的經費，所以我們希望大概90到100億。"],["羅委員明才：90到100億，好，我們也大力支持，因為北北基桃都是共同生活圈，而且市長很認真在做，我們會大力支持，謝謝。"],["許科員明賢：委員好，我是澎湖縣政府代表，我們希望可以增加25億左右。"],["羅委員明才：澎湖25億，謝謝。下一個。"],["陳專門委員家慶：委員好，臺南市政府代表，臺南市政府每年的預算差短大概是五、六十億，以上，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：五、六十億，請問是哪裡？"],["陳專門委員家慶：臺南市政府。"],["羅委員明才：臺南市五、六十億，我們召委也是臺南的，所以我們會請郭國文召委一起為臺南市加油，不分你我。下一個。"],["張科長壽明：委員好，我是連江縣政府代表，我們大概是全國自籌款比例最低的縣市政府，主要差短是配合款和歲入歲出的短絀，大概5億左右。"],["羅委員明才：幾億？"],["張科長壽明：5億。"],["羅委員明才：部長，馬上給它了啦！5億，每次都說溝通有困難，你是哪一個地方？"],["張科長壽明：連江馬祖。"],["羅委員明才：連江馬祖5億，好啦！馬上給啦！謝謝，請回。算一下總共加起來多少。","所以部長我要告訴你，我們每天講天說地，加一加大概沒有超過2,000億，然後一副苦哈哈，講東講西。各位敬愛的全國民眾，前瞻少花一點就有錢了！各位民眾大家想想看，不過就一、兩千億，事情就解決了，為什麼不做？拖了二十五年！這不是本席說要做不做，是小英總統說要做，蘇貞昌老縣長說要做，賴清德總統以前說過通通要做，我們為什麼不放下政黨之見，站在民眾思考的立場，就幫他們一下吧？前瞻8,800億在這邊沒花幾分鐘就通過了，現在加起來多少？就當2,600億吧！打個八折好了，用2,000億來算，不是皆大歡喜了嗎？所以部長，本席在這裡要求你，禮拜三你把需要經費的縣市長都一次請過來，請他們在所有立委面前看到底缺什麼？缺多少金額？我們一起來幫他們！如同你剛剛講的，中央跟地方是什麼關係？是夥伴關係嘛，有什麼不能講、什麼不能說的？拜託部長，要面對這個問題了！","最後，主計長，去年稅收又超徵3,000億左右，拜託！苦民所苦！現在經濟、通膨、物價飆漲得很厲害，拜託今年每個人普發現金一萬塊，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，它整個結餘是……"],["羅委員明才：一萬塊啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：2,790億，還債之後剩下1,530億，然後我們挹注台電1,000億的追加預算……"],["羅委員明才：不要給台電，今年你給台電，明年還要給，後年還要給……"],["陳主計長淑姿：可是問題是它……"],["羅委員明才：這是政策錯誤吧！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為材料上漲，所以它也支持不下去。"],["羅委員明才：材料漲，電價也漲了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前電價漲了還是不夠，所以我們還是要補1,000億。追加1,000億後就讓我們整個累計剩餘才剩下六百多億，謝謝，以上。"],["羅委員明才：一個人普發現金一萬塊，缺的錢我來告訴部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝召委羅明才委員的質詢。剛才總共有十七個縣市，總共缺口是2,575億，這可以讓我們好好思考地方缺口的狀況，謝謝。","我們接下來請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 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經費。所以我們希望大概有90到100。"},{"start":690.404,"end":701.671,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、"},{"start":721.789,"end":728.19,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政"},{"start":750.049,"end":768.917,"text":"大概5億左右幾億部長馬上給他了啦5億然後一直每次都說溝通有困難你說你是哪一個地方連江馬祖連江馬祖5億好啦馬上給啦好謝謝請回那那個秘書長總共接下來多少你算一下所以部長我要告訴你的"},{"start":780.455,"end":806.555,"text":"我們每天講天說地加一加大概沒有超過兩千億啦然後一副苦哈哈講東講西各位敬愛的全國民眾錢真少花一點就有錢了各位民眾大家想想看這不過一兩千億的事情就解決了為什麼做脫了25年"},{"start":808.82,"end":835.921,"text":"不是本席說要做不做是小英總統說要做蘇貞昌老縣長說要做賴清德總統以前說過通通要做我們為什麼不放下政黨之見站在民眾思考的立場就幫他們一下吧前瞻8800億在這邊沒有幾分就通過了加起來多少2600億吧"},{"start":839.401,"end":846.712,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等22人、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具"},{"start":855.409,"end":874.082,"text":"請他們在所有立委面前看到底缺什麼缺多少金額我們一起來幫他嘛就如同你剛剛講的中央地方什麼關係是夥伴關係嘛有什麼不能講有什麼不能說的拜託部長要面對這個問題了最後主計長去年的稅收啊又超徵3000億左右拜託啊苦民所苦啊"},{"start":881.534,"end":889.268,"text":"現在經濟通膨物價飆漲得很厲害拜託今年每個人普發現金一萬塊好不好"},{"start":891.889,"end":893.81,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查"},{"start":914.125,"end":918.069,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員許宇甄等26人、委員"}]}},{"id":"153453","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707d2e3d4ba66d93709b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0ca02fbc99524b187e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:34:29 - 10:41:49","影片長度":"00:07:20","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:34:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:41:49+08:00","duration":440,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時34分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家早。是不是有請部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長好，今天討論的是財政收支劃分法，首先還是要感謝部長，今年我們在努力里長年終慰問金的部分，法案已經送到院會準備三讀通過，當時也跟部長拜託一定要協助怎麼樣免稅，我相信內政部已經有請教過財政部的意見，現在出去的版本是里長可以免稅，我代表全臺灣的里長謝謝部長的提議。","今天要討論、跟部長請益的部分是，5月才剛報完稅，過去我們都知道111年稅收超徵4,000億，112年稅收超徵3,671億，請問今年5月份剛報完稅，部長認為今年大概會超收稅收多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為5月是所得稅進帳的最大數額，目前來說，大概是跟我們的預算數差不多，目前來說收齊的情形是這樣。"],["張委員智倫：所以預計不太會……今年沒有超收的情形嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們認為應該要到下半年以後、大概到10月才會漸為明朗，因為9月份還有營所稅的暫繳稅款，目前來說大概跟預算數的估算是差不多的。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，所以今年預計目前不會有超收。不過要提醒部長，在111年的時候有超收將近4,000億，所以當時每人有發6,000塊，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，在112年我們執行全民共享。"],["張委員智倫：我相信有很多委員也有提到，去年超收3,600億，會發6,000塊給民眾嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：去年超出預算數3,600億是含中央跟地方，其實中央大概超出預算數二千多億、二千九百一……"],["張委員智倫：所以有考慮普發現金嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個部分的決算數已經到了審計部了，至於對於超過預算數的部分，我們的做法就是減少舉債、增加還債，所以去年我們除了編了預算1,110億，多還了150億，所以我們還了1,260億，這是讓我們的債務能夠往下，不要一直累積，這個部分我們在財政的紀律上是有考慮的。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，所以沒有考慮要發現金給全民？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有考慮，這個部分我們要累積我們的財政韌性。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，感謝部長。部長，我要跟你分享一個概念，就是我們都希望減稅、便民，超徵的稅收顧名思義就是也要把稅收還給全民，所以我們所說的統籌分配款，我認為人數是一個很重要的概念，我們為什麼要討論這個？新北市有400萬人口，請問一下部長，現在全臺灣22個縣市，哪一個縣市中央分配給地方的統籌分配款人均是最低的？六都裡面哪一個縣市最低？"],["莊部長翠雲：先跟委員報告，稅收沒有所謂超徵，因為每一塊錢都是按照法律收，是我們的實徵數超過了預算數。"],["張委員智倫：對，剛剛部長的概念就是說……"],["莊部長翠雲：另外就是說……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們把它累積到財政的韌性裡面，其實也是為全民在做財務的韌性……"],["張委員智倫：好，部長，我的意思是發回的考慮是要發回給全民，所以我認為全國的稅收也應該要以人數由中央統籌分配給地方。部長，你還沒回答我，六都裡面哪一個縣市中央給地方的人均是最少的？"],["莊部長翠雲：人均數目前來說是新北市。"],["張委員智倫：好，新北市，新北市400萬人，在六都裡面是最低的。"],["莊部長翠雲：它是人口數最多。"],["張委員智倫：好。第二個，我請問一下，全臺22個縣市，哪一個縣市中央分配給地方的統籌分配款人均也是最低的？"],["莊部長翠雲：中央統籌……您的意思……剛剛不是說……"],["張委員智倫：剛剛是六都，現在是全臺灣22個縣市哪個縣市也是最低的？"],["莊部長翠雲：縣市是不是？是哪一個？"],["張委員智倫：對。部長，我直接跟你回答，也是新北市啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["張委員智倫：所以本席最不能接受的是新北市有400萬的民眾，居然我們每一個人的人均是最低的，跟剛剛我講的那個概念完全不能夠相符。而且你們在報告裡面也寫說，在國民黨的提案裡面，你也說分配公式以人口指標為主，易導致人口數較多的縣市獲配顯著優於其他同縣市，這個結論跟現在真實呈現的數字完全不相符。所以請教部長，我要幫我們新北市400萬的人民、居民發聲，如何可以讓中央比較照顧我們新北市的居民？你們有沒有研究怎麼樣來做？"],["莊部長翠雲：人口數本來就是一個統籌分配稅款裡面指標之一，但是我們知道有的版本裡面把人口數的權數拉得很高的話，會讓人口多的地方增加的數額會比較高，這是一個計算出來可以瞭解的事情。那另外……"],["張委員智倫：有沒有方式可以協助新北市把中央分配給地方的統籌分配款金額拉高？有沒有什麼方式？部長，請回答。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們不會只是針對新北市，我們必須要考慮整個分配的均衡性，以及把相關的指標列出來具有客觀性及普遍性。"],["張委員智倫：我要報告部長的就是，我剛剛跟部長報告，新北市已經是六都最低，而且也是全臺灣22縣市最低，財劃法已經25年沒有修了，所以這個問題已經累積了二十幾年了，新北市整體的建設真的有被拖緩。","我再跟部長請教，剛剛我有聽部長……其實你們也非常認真，已經在研議了，現在不管是國民黨及民眾黨的版本，針對營業稅的部分都認為應該還稅於民，所以都提出來100%要還稅於民。部長，現在針對營業稅部分的研議，可不可以透露一下，你們是不是在營業稅的部分有所鬆動，可以在未來的財劃法上做調整？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的修法原則裡有一個提升財政自主，這個部分會增加統籌分配稅款的規模……"],["張委員智倫：營業稅過去也是地方稅，後來改成國稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：至於怎麼樣從哪一個稅目上面去做比例性的調整，要等到我們的分配公式計算出來以後，看需要的額度是多少再來做調整。"],["張委員智倫：我要跟部長提醒，因為過去營業稅也是地方稅，我記得當時不管是蘇貞昌或賴清德院長……而且賴清德院長當行政院院長的時候，還有開一個記者會，當時就稍微透露出來要修正營業稅、要還稅於民，所以請部長一起努力，趕快把版本做出來，我相信這才是全民之福，而且幫新北市市民謀福利。以上，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，張智倫委員詢答結束。","接下來請羅明才召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.004093750000003,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.72096875,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.73784375,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.05346875,"end":28.296593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.60034375,"end":66.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.43409375,"end":67.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.58159375000001,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.20534375,"end":72.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.12846875000001,"end":80.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.52471875,"end":92.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.13096875000001,"end":89.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.62409375,"end":103.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.55909375,"end":106.56284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.66409375,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.24534375,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.34096875,"end":125.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.95659375000001,"end":153.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.81409375,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.05346875,"end":187.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.01846875,"end":196.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.47721875000002,"end":198.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.43471875,"end":197.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.90721875,"end":203.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.75471875000002,"end":218.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.36159375000003,"end":206.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.34346875,"end":215.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.42346875,"end":217.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.55784375000002,"end":226.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.13971875000001,"end":222.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.22409375,"end":222.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.46846875000003,"end":224.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.29096875000002,"end":231.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.03721875000002,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.78346875000003,"end":235.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.61721875,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.41846875000002,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.22409375,"end":249.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.48096875000002,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.45971875,"end":253.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.17659375,"end":256.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.19346875,"end":259.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.23096875000005,"end":259.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.38284375,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.61909375,"end":269.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.92284375,"end":261.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.09846875,"end":271.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.95471875000004,"end":274.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.36346875000004,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.11721875,"end":302.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.79784375,"end":314.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.73284375000003,"end":323.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.36034375,"end":329.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.55346875000004,"end":339.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.96096875,"end":383.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.06221875,"end":340.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.47784375000003,"end":353.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.66284375000004,"end":400.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.84784375000004,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.43846875,"end":392.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.86284375,"end":430.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.51221875000005,"end":431.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.38096875,"end":437.93721875000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.857,"end":3.979,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":18.123,"end":39.74,"text":"地方的這個財政收支劃分法首先還是要感謝部長這邊今年我們在努力這個里長的這個年終慰問金的部分那這個已經送到院會準備要三讀通過那當時也跟部長拜託我們一定要來協助怎麼樣免稅那我相信內政部這邊一定要請教過財政部的意見那現在這個版本出去是"},{"start":40.22,"end":58.451,"text":"理長可以免稅,那我代表全台灣的理長謝謝部長這邊提議那今天要討論的部分也要跟部長請議的部分五月才剛報完稅那過去我們都知道111年這個稅收超徵4000億112年稅收超徵3671億那我請問今年剛報完稅五月份這個部長有沒有認為今年會大概超收稅收多少錢"},{"start":67.717,"end":72.66,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":92.934,"end":93.294,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":103.795,"end":120.061,"text":"對,在112年我們執行全民共享那我相信很多委員也有提到那去年超出了3600億會發6000塊給民眾嗎?去年超出預算數3600億是含中央跟地方其實中央大概超出預算數大概是2000多億2900億有考慮發普發現金嗎?"},{"start":125.323,"end":127.565,"text":"財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":143.556,"end":144.477,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法。"},{"start":162.957,"end":187.359,"text":"超徵稅收顧民司也要把稅收還給全民所以就是我們所說的這個統籌分配款人數我認為是一個很重要的一個概念請教部長我們為什麼要討論這個新北市有400萬的人口請問一下現在全台灣22個縣市哪一個縣市人均統籌分配還分配給中央分給地方人均是最低的六都裡面哪一個縣市最低"},{"start":188.126,"end":202.142,"text":"先跟委員報告稅收沒有所謂超徵因為每一塊錢都是按照法律收是我們的實徵數超過了預算數對我剛跟部長的概念就是說我們把它累積到財政的韌性裡面其實也是為全民在做財務的一個韌性"},{"start":204.565,"end":206.708,"text":"支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":219.788,"end":235.877,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政"},{"start":244.682,"end":248.425,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續"},{"start":272.017,"end":283.786,"text":"相符。」而且你們在報告裡面也寫說在國民黨的提案裡面你也說分配公室以人口指標為主亦導致人口數較多的縣市獲配顯著優於其他同縣市"},{"start":285.154,"end":287.096,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具"},{"start":303.854,"end":317.29,"text":"人口數本來就是一個統籌分配稅款裡面指標之一但是我們知道有的版本裡面把人口數的全數拉得很高的話會讓人口多的地方會增加的數額會比較高"},{"start":318.499,"end":323.604,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具:「財政"},{"start":340.017,"end":365.529,"text":"所以我要報告部長就是說現在剛剛跟部長報告新北市已經是六都最低而且是全台灣22縣市最低這個財劃法已經25年沒有修所以這個問題已經累積了20幾年了新北市整個整體的建設真的是有被拖緩那我再跟部長請教因為剛剛我有聽部長其實你們也非常認真已經在研議了現在不管是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本針對營業稅的部分"},{"start":367.21,"end":370.071,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":384.847,"end":400.773,"text":"修法原則裏有一個提升財政自主這個部分會增加統籌分配稅款的規模自己怎麼樣的去從哪一個稅目上面去做比例性的調整這個是要等到我們的分配公式計算出來後看需要的一個額度是多少再來做調整是"},{"start":401.113,"end":408.877,"text":"稍微得知有透露出來就是要把營業稅來做一個修正的一個動作要還稅移民所以希望說部長這部分繼續一起努力趕快把版本做出來我相信這個才是全民之福而且幫新北市民來謀福利以上謝謝"},{"start":430.549,"end":434.131,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"}]}},{"id":"153452","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153452","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707c12059799fe7686959c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0cf9b9c0bced22f4a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:27:40 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868,"end":205.637,"text":"這些東西都是遵循國際的規範將這個制度建立在他們整體的公司文化和內控機制上面以上所以我想我們的電信業者應該不會自打嘴巴不會破壞他們自己的商譽因為這個要有相關法律責任的議題對所以這部分因為我們現在是數位的時代所以我們也是希望我們諸位包含我們數位部大家要來審慎面對這樣的一個議題我想這個議題不會今天在委員會問就結束"},{"start":210.319,"end":210.679,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":241.971,"end":244.954,"text":"對阿,所以不是外傳這樣子啦齁,大家都弄什麼歐洲料在那裡啦齁"},{"start":264.845,"end":268.488,"text":"目前是我們台灣沒有能力開發這個設備端的一個通訊監察技術嗎?未來是不是有辦法來做一個改善?"},{"start":290.198,"end":310.255,"text":"各位報告那設備端監控的部分那涉及到這個技術本身要有第三方來驗證跟技術成熟的部分所以在國家還沒有這個這方技術第三方驗證的機制還沒起被狀況之下法務部的就是科技政策法就是木馬植入的木馬監控這部分我們新的這個科技政策法並沒有把修法進去"},{"start":311.476,"end":337.783,"text":"但是這個部分我想我們還是一樣要跟外界說明清楚這畢竟這個大家都在關心這個議題還有另外一個針對我們非外界的公務機關這個洩漏各自的情形不斷包含像我們一些的大型的一個企業的公司都有這樣一個訊息像華航、中華電信即使在修法仍然產生各自外界的情形那這部分我們相關的對應單位我們有沒有什麼樣一個方法、一個措施"},{"start":340.331,"end":356.322,"text":"報告委員關於這個比如說以電信事業來講的話如果有涉及到非公務機關洩漏個資我們都會進行相關的裁罰這個是電信公司必須要負責如果說他所掌握的個資被非法使用或洩漏的話這個必須依法去裁罰我們有相關的案例"},{"start":357.469,"end":381.798,"text":"好 謝謝那最後我再請教一下我們數位部黃部長部長上次本席在質詢的時候一直有提到我們屏東的這個數位發展落後的一個狀況那根據本席調查的資料我們在112年的部分像我們屏東縣完全都沒有所謂一個數位發展的一個成熟區那數位發展一個懵懂區有17個是全台最多的那另外就是"},{"start":383.274,"end":400.872,"text":"平東的那個發展的一個盲凍區有103個平東就占了六分之一那針對我們這樣一個資訊落後的部分我們有沒有什麼樣的一個精進的作為我們一直在這邊就做這個平衡這個所謂數位落差還有說用這個電信普及基金來做補助我是不是請那個是"},{"start":403.063,"end":403.283,"text":"徐富癸"}]}},{"id":"153451","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153451","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c70721be1a88676d034b59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c13064af4447e51475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:12:54 - 10:27:21","影片長度":"00:14:27","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:12:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:27:21+08:00","duration":867,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時12分）謝謝召委。有請數發部黃部長、NCC陳主委、法務部黃次長，還有中華電信郭董。"],["主席：請黃部長、陳主委、黃次長、郭董。"],["魯委員明哲：這個剛剛很多委員也講過了，本來是一個設計在1984年的劇本，老大哥在watching 他的人民，結果40年之後，奇怪了！我們現在也不知道到底是真的還是假的，但是確定人民開始有一個懷疑，包括我們立法院也好，我相信在座的主管，包括你們問了半天，從早上到昨天的新聞、前天的新聞，大家基本上不是否認，就是都說沒有嘛！資料沒有、這個也沒有，全部都沒有，現在的情況是他到底說了什麼？","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：第一個，這是王義川正式講的，他是民進黨政策會黨部的主管，是主管喔！不是隨便的黨工。他講了什麼呢？他就把三個活動做對比，很簡單嘛！這三個活動要怎麼做對比？有些是在五個月前的113選前之夜，請問中華電信，或是大數據中心有來嗎？如果今天我跟你要資料，要112當天在某個地方，誰有去、誰沒去，現在在你們電腦裡面可以查得到嗎？就是假設我現在合法跟你要，你有沒有這個數據？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，政治集會上面的活動，我們沒有進行這方面的人潮分析，我們的人潮分析主要是針對剛才提到的商業、活動、地方城市治理、交通疏解、觀光旅遊……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你們人潮分析有一個關鍵點，是不是都要事前申請？"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["魯委員明哲：我現在問你嘛！我現在就事後……"],["郭董事長水義：沒有錯，要先溝通。"],["魯委員明哲：假設那邊沒有需要架設機器，或者鎖定什麼資料，這是你們技術性的問題嘛！我現在如果跳躍，要五個月前的一個活動，你有沒有辦法提供？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有辦法。"],["魯委員明哲：真的還假的？"],["郭董事長水義：我們沒有保留那麼長的時間的資料。"],["魯委員明哲：那你要去問王義川，他都知道，可能技術上面你要請教他。"],["郭董事長水義：我們不清楚他的說法。"],["魯委員明哲：好。第一個，三個活動比對，第二個，關鍵字就是手機的訊號，再看下一個。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：好，這是他第二個的說法，而且包括民進黨黨部的發言人也在幫他說話，說新北市、臺北市都在做，像臺南市也在做，但你說過了嘛，人潮分析沒有辦法完全去識別性的，像是有多少人去、魯明哲有沒有去過，你不能知道，對不對？這個部分，所以他講的兩件事情都是透過手機的訊號，而且他在佐證他講的是對的，人家最新的發展是什麼、昨天的發展是什麼？這麼多人幫他說話欸！我看到民進黨的吳思瑤委員昨天也幫他說話，說我們幹嘛要開今天的會議啊？這也是新北市、臺北市都在做的一般的人潮分析啊！昨天才說完，昨天晚上王義川就把他打臉了，怎麼打臉？你沒有看到，昨天他又上節目了，他說：我沒有資料啦！我只要看人、看直播、看影片，我到現場用膝蓋想就知道了！我告訴你，這不是打臉我們，而是打臉那些之前幫他擋子彈的他的同事，我覺得這真的非常非常扯。","現在我覺得很奇怪，所以我剛剛問中華電信說，你們大數據到底可不可以追溯？現在你說資料沒有外流，現在有多少家坊間的，不管是顧問公司或是做這個行業的，跟你們有契約關係？因為政府不會跟你直接拿這個資料，他也沒辦法分析啦！都是發包給一個單位，那個單位就是市場上的公司，臺灣大約有多少家在做這樣的生意？"],["郭董事長水義：市場上有關商業分析、大數據的應用分析，合法的……"],["魯委員明哲：大約、大約。"],["郭董事長水義：我沒有特別去統計。"],["魯委員明哲：我建議你，這個事情剛剛法務部也說了正在查，很多訊息我建議你要跟你所有的廠商確認，看他們有沒有這方面的數據？我也建議你再下一個層級，跟你簽約的廠商做確認，看有沒有任何人提供類似的資料給王先生，這個部分我是建議你趕快去做。"],["郭董事長水義：好。"],["魯委員明哲：法務部黃次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：黃次長，我們最近看到兩件事，我覺得滿感慨的，第一是看到你們的通保法在5月9日送到立法院來要修法，修法的原因是為了你們要查一些大案，但有需要用到網路的流量，所以你們在第三條之一還定義，要增修網路流量是什麼，講得很清楚，然後重點是，如果可以通過修法，要怎麼調閱這些資料呢？還要經過法院，要法院同意耶！所以這很嚴重，我覺得你們這樣太辛苦，我建議直接問王大哥，他直接就知道了，他什麼都知道，不然你們還要修法修個半天，每一個個案弄了半天，還要法院核完之後，我跟你講，現在有人就知道了。我請問一下，這個案子已經在進行他字案了嗎？是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["魯委員明哲：準備查了吧？"],["黃次長謀信：檢察官在5月29日分案之後就已經在積極的進行偵查。"],["魯委員明哲：證據保全了沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，不好意思，因為證據保全涉及到檢察官的偵查步驟，我這邊就不……第一個，我也不知道，我也不可能在這邊透露他的……"],["魯委員明哲：不是啦！不要到最後他字案等於是一塊遮羞布而已，弄完之後什麼也沒有。就簡單來講，這些手機、這些資訊、大數據都是可能刪除瞬間去處理的，他到底跟誰通訊？我現在是推論，但這有可能是事實喔！在這種事實之下，有民眾檢舉了，我覺得證據保全，包括中華電信，它大數據中心到底有沒有跟人家來來往往？相關的一些單位，我覺得你們要去做證據保全，不然等最後要啟動的時候，事實上什麼東西都不見了，所以我是給你建議，證據保全是查一個案子的最基本啦！接下來請數發部。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，其實那一天你拜會我時，我也跟你談過這件事，你覺得以現在的技術，可不可以做到我們王大哥，就以前的老大哥所說的這種情況？就是三個活動誰有去、誰沒去，是不是同樣的人，你覺得技術上可以做到嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛有解釋過，這個資料散在不同系統，技術上可行，但實務上會相當耗時，而且需要法規允許，所以在行政面上、在時間上，可能需要……"],["魯委員明哲：黃部長，說真的，這個技術含量非常低，只要你把個人資料全部給我，我用Excel索引一下，就知道誰幾歲，關鍵點就在於當他沒有提供這些資料，完全沒有這些資料時，如果現在技術可以發展到他哪個活動有去、哪個活動沒去，這是蠻可怕的，表示在四、五個月前在凱道的時候，就有人做了完整的紀錄，有了明確紀錄，才可以跟後面的比較。"],["黃部長彥男：委員，細部系統的資料，我想郭董事長比較清楚。"],["魯委員明哲：好，郭董？"],["郭董事長水義：跟委員報告，中華電信的系統一切合法合遵，我們系統上沒有這樣一個所謂三個不同時間點的交叉比對功能……"],["魯委員明哲：沒有嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：第二，最重要的是它是一個去識別化的資料，而且是輪廓性分析，所以沒有辦法比對某一天立法院我有來、沒有來，改天……"],["魯委員明哲：所以就中華電信立場，你是三大業者……"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：有人在節目上說他用手機訊號比對，你覺得他的說法是什麼？請你給個評價。"],["郭董事長水義：我不方便評論。"],["魯委員明哲：不方便評論？那是不是胡說八道？你不好意思講？其實這個事情發展到現在，如果是真的，我是持保留態度，但萬一是真的，我覺得真的很恐怖，這不光是人民遭到可能的監控，還是對政黨活動的政治偵防，這是一個比想像還要嚴重非常多的情況。","NCC陳主委，我覺得一個機關、一個機構的首長，其實很多責任都要負，當然我們自己做錯事情我們自己要負責，但如果是我們的下屬，假設你的處長在外面亂說、亂講，或做錯一些事情，你也難免跑不掉要負一些責任，你說對不對？剛剛新就任的數發部部長，如果你的次長在外面亂說或者犯錯，你覺得你要不要負一點責任？可能也要嘛！對不對？我就請教一下，除了這些機關之外，我覺得很奇怪，我們賴總統剛上任，那他對這件事的立場、說法到底是什麼？我們只看到他5月25號針對青鳥活動發了一個很感動的文，我有特別注意，其中紅字是最重要的部分，他說：更重要的是人民的基本權利需要受到保護，不能任意侵犯。人民的基本權利需要受到保護，不能任意侵犯。他在5月25號發文，結果一天之後，王大哥就上臺講了這些話，賴總統應該出來講講話嘛！因為你最關心的人民基本權利，已經正在被監控、正在被侵犯，所以這部分我覺得很奇怪啊！","再來，剛剛說如果你們的下屬或主管出了什麼錯，你們都難逃一些責任，包括政治責任，那就奇怪了，王義川不是路人甲欸！他是民進黨政策會執行長，是黨務一級主管，他上面除了秘書長就是主席，我的天吶！各個機關的員工可能犯錯，你們都會覺得有點不好意思，主管犯錯，也要出來幫忙做個說明，就是這樣嘛！所以賴總統，請你出來說說話！賴主席，你的黨務主管在節目上講這樣讓人民憂心的事情，請你出來面對！黨務主管做這樣的事情，如果都不用面對，囫圇吞棗就過去的話，那要怎麼弄？陳主委，這個案子要怎麼處罰？最近我們龍介兄大概也是類似情況，被罰60萬，那現在這個是什麼狀況？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：剛才林國成委員有當場具名檢舉，我們會依照後續的相關……"],["魯委員明哲：不是早就檢舉了？我先確認一下，今天是6月幾號？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：今天是6月3號。"],["魯委員明哲：6月3號，所以是6月3號早上第一次接到這個案子的檢舉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，有6件了，今天這件是第7件。"],["魯委員明哲：主委，說真的啦！不管你7月走不走或怎麼樣，我是不知道啦！但拜託一下，不要在這邊亂扯嘛！你不要……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有亂扯啊！"],["魯委員明哲：你幹嘛跟林國成委員說：委員，你要不要現在檢舉？你檢舉我就辦。早就有人檢舉了，同樣的事情，還需要再檢舉嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，沒有，是林國成委員剛才當場具名檢舉，我是回答……"],["魯委員明哲：我知道嘛！之前有沒有人檢舉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，6件。"],["魯委員明哲：最早幾月幾號檢舉？來，最早的？"],["林處長慧玲：應該是5月29號。"],["魯委員明哲：對嘛！所以今天林國成委員檢不檢舉都沒有關係，因為已經有人檢舉了，好不好？有人說立委也沒有多大，我也認同，我們平常大家就要檢舉，一般民眾檢舉就是檢舉，那你現在辦到什麼程度？你現在瞭解清楚嗎？所有證據都很清楚嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：關於這部分，第一，我們先調查通訊資料的部分，所以請三大電信業者來說明。第二，有沒有落實事實查證的部分，我們會以所謂的調帶來處理，然後意見陳述來處理這個議題，依照法定程序去處理。"],["魯委員明哲：這個罰60萬，你罰中天、龍介兄在節目上講說是不是有監控，你當時的理由，我最後念完就算了，你主要的理由是，因為主持人未進一步詢問跟進行事實查證，嚴重誤導民眾因參與政治活動致通訊資料遭蒐集，造成個人資料外洩的恐慌，損及民眾對於國家保障人民秘密通訊自由……等等，這是你在那一年給中天的60萬罰單內容，現在情況一模一樣，甚至看起來是有過之而無不及，我們希望查案的速度快一點，希望你針對媒體類似情況的時候，能夠快速瞭解、解決問題，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","下面請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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怎麼打臉 沒有看到 昨天他又上節目了 他說"},{"start":232.267,"end":258.148,"text":"我沒有資料啦我沒有資料啦那我只要看人、看直播、看影片我到現場用膝蓋想就知道了我告訴你這不是打臉我們啦這之前幫他所有擋子彈的那些他的同志我覺得這真的非常非常扯所以我是現在我覺得很奇怪所以中華電信剛剛問你你大數據到底可不可以追溯那你現在你說"},{"start":259.64,"end":260.761,"text":"大約我沒有特別去統計"},{"start":289.358,"end":290.138,"text":"法務部黃智長"},{"start":315.753,"end":316.394,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":334.048,"end":353.551,"text":"所以你們在31條還定義要徵修了王榮亮是什麼講得很清楚然後呢重點如果可以通過修法怎麼要調閱這些資料呢還要經過法院要法院同意耶所以這很嚴重但我是建議你們太辛苦了直接問王大哥你知道嗎"},{"start":353.891,"end":356.592,"text":"檢察官在5月29日犯案之後他就已經在積極的進行偵查了證據保全了沒有"},{"start":378.141,"end":404.102,"text":"報告委員這證據保全這個是社交檢查官的偵查步驟我這邊就第一個我也不知道我也不可能在這邊透露他的不是啊不要到最後這個什麼他自然是一個等於說車修部而已弄完之後什麼也沒有就簡單來講嘛這在手機這些資訊大數據都是可能刪除瞬間去處理的他到底跟誰通訊我因為我現在是推論這有可能是事實喔我有可能是事實喔"},{"start":404.482,"end":431.29,"text":"那在這種事實之下有民眾檢舉了我覺得證據保全包括中華電信他大數據中心到底有沒有跟他來來往往啊相關的一些單位我覺得你們要去做一個證據保全不然到最後你們等最要啟動的時候事實上什麼東西都不見了所以我就給你建議啦我希望證據保全事實上查一個案子的最基本那接下來束縛阿姆"},{"start":434.842,"end":450.431,"text":"其實那天你有拜會我也跟你談過這件事嘛你覺得現在技術上可不可以做到我們王大哥啦以前老大哥嘛王大哥他所說的這種情況三個活動誰有去誰被去是不是同樣的人這個你覺得在技術上可以做到嗎"},{"start":450.931,"end":452.332,"text":"副部長,說真的啦,這個技術的含量非常低啦"},{"start":472.625,"end":497.642,"text":"好不好,只要你資料給我啦,個人資料全部給我,我只要索引一下就知道誰幾歲了所以關鍵點這技術的,就是說當他沒有提供這些資料,完全沒有這些資料那現在技術可以發展到哪一個活動去哪個活動沒去,這是蠻可怕的表示在四五個月前在凱道的時候就已經做了完整的紀錄有明確的紀錄才可以跟後面來比較的"},{"start":498.382,"end":523.037,"text":"我以為那個細部的那個系統的資料我想那個我們郭董事長比較清楚我目前報告中華電信的系統上的一切合法合遵我們在系統上沒有這樣的一個所謂的三個不同的時間點交叉比對這種功能沒有嗎那第二最重要的是它是一個去識別化而且是輪廓性分析所以沒有辦法去比對說某一天今天立法院我有來沒有來"},{"start":524.887,"end":535.493,"text":"所以你就一個中華電信的立場你是三大業者那有人在節目上說他用手機訊號去比對你覺得他的說法是什麼你說給個評價我不方便評論那是不是胡說八道不好意思講"},{"start":547.199,"end":570.275,"text":"其實這個事情發展到現在如果這個是真的我現在是保留是這樣我覺得萬一是真的真的很恐怖這不光是一個這個人民遭到可能的一個監控第二個勒還對政黨的活動這是政黨的一個增防政治增防這是一個說真的比想像還要嚴重非常多的一個情況那我覺得今天那NCC這個"},{"start":572.422,"end":600.936,"text":"陳主委我覺得一個機關一個機構我們是首長其實很多責任都要負但我們自己做錯事情我們自己要負我們下屬假設你的處長在外面亂說亂講或做錯一些事情你也難免跑不掉一些責任你就說對不對剛剛我們這個新的我們速發部部長如果你的次長在外面亂說或者犯錯你覺得你要不要負一點責任可能也要嘛對不對那我就要請教一下"},{"start":602.216,"end":618.132,"text":"我就請教一下這個因為其實現在應該是除了這些機關之外我就覺得很奇怪我們賴總統剛上任那他對這件事的立場到底說法"},{"start":619.073,"end":640.343,"text":"到底是什麼?因為我們只看到他5月25日針對於青鳥活動發一個很感動的文我特別注意其中洪志最重要的他說更重要的是人民的基本權利需要受到保護不能任意侵犯人民的基本權利需要受到保護不能任意侵犯"},{"start":641.414,"end":668.306,"text":"他在525發文欸就一天之後王大哥就上台去講了所以賴總統出來講講話嘛因為你最關心的人的基本權利已經正在被監控正在欺販所以我覺得這個部分很奇怪啊再來今天唯一沒到的另外你們剛剛講說如果你的下屬你的主管如果出了什麼錯你們都難逃一些的不管是政治責任也好"},{"start":670.291,"end":696.857,"text":"欸這奇怪啊王玉川不是路人甲欸他是民進黨政策會的執行長是一級的主管他是黨務的主管他上面除了秘書長就是主席啊我的天啊你們各個機關我們的員工可能犯錯你都會覺得有點不好意思我們的主管犯錯你要出來幫忙去做一個說明就是這樣嘛到現在賴總統請你出來說說話"},{"start":699.585,"end":713.507,"text":"賴主席你的黨務主管在節目上講這樣的讓人民憂心的事情請你出來面對黨務主管做這樣的事情如果都不用面對胡亂吞早就過去的話那怎麼去弄"},{"start":714.721,"end":714.961,"text":"今天是6月幾號"},{"start":736.004,"end":764.816,"text":"今天是6月3日6月3日?所以是6月3日早上第一次接到這個案子的檢舉嗎?沒有,我們...6件,有6件了主委說真的啦不管你是7月走不走或怎麼樣我是不知道啦,拜託一下好不好不要在這邊亂扯嘛我說,我只問一下你幹嘛跟林國城委員說委員你要不要現在檢舉,你檢舉我就辦找錯人檢舉了,同樣的案子你還叫他檢舉嗎?是剛才林國城委員當場具名檢舉我知道嘛,之前有沒有人檢舉?"},{"start":765.996,"end":767.117,"text":"最早幾月幾號檢舉?來,最早的?最早的?對嘛"},{"start":776.437,"end":802.642,"text":"所以今天跟李國琛委員檢不檢舉已經有人檢舉了好不好我覺得立委有人說立委也沒有多大我也認為嘛我們平常就是大家就要檢舉一般的民眾檢舉就是檢舉了你到底辦到怎麼樣你現在現在了解清楚嗎我覺得所有的身份都很清楚第一個先調查這個通訊這個資料的部分我們請上到電視業者來嘛那第二個來講的話這個有沒有落實事實查證的部分我們會請那個所謂的那個"},{"start":805.492,"end":821.959,"text":"我們吊債來處理然後意見陳述去處理這個議題依照法定程序去處理我希望齁這個罰60萬嘛齁你罰中天龍雀雄在上面講說是不是有監控的你當時的理由我最後念完就算了齁他說這邊你主要的理由齁"},{"start":823.099,"end":846.811,"text":"主持人為進一步詢問跟進行事實查證嚴重誤導民眾因參與政治活動至通訊資料遭收集造成個人資料外洩的恐慌損及民眾對於國家保障人民秘密通訊自由等等這是你在那一年"},{"start":847.651,"end":847.671,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153450","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153450","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707731cbe9d81b21e06b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c1e3ae5b617d37a7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"10:22:36 - 10:34:23","影片長度":"00:11:47","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:22:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:34:23+08:00","duration":707,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":437,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時22分）謝謝主席，有請財政部長跟原民會。"],["主席：莊部長、原民會洪副處長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。大家都有提到，財劃法距上一次1999年修正已經經過了25年，我看到財政部的專報有提出修法的五原則，分別是提升財政自主、劃一分配基礎、調劑財政盈虛、保障既有財源、精進分配機制，當中提到我們的原則就是希望不要讓富者更富，不要讓窮者更窮，很好。我想要請教，這五原則是不是跟地方政府一起討論出來的？"],["莊部長翠雲：這五原則是我們基本上初擬的一個原則，這個原則就是告訴大家，第一個，提升財政自主，我們會擴大統籌分配稅款的規模。第二個，劃一分配基礎，也就是目前來說，直轄市跟各縣市政府的計算公式並不一致，我們是朝向要讓它用一致的方式，因為現在直轄市就直接分走61%，所以應該要往這個方向。第三個，調劑財政盈虛，也就是剛剛委員所提的，我們要趕快先把各地方政府基準財政收支的差短彌補，然後縣市的競爭額數要高於直轄市，也就是不要讓富的更富，窮的更窮，這個是一個基本的原則，一定要做到，也讓大家在做分配公式的時候必須要想到這個。另外是保障既有的財源，也就是說它獲配的財源希望能夠不要減少，就是它原來已經獲配了，就不做減少。另外就是分配的機制，我們必須要精進的部分包含比如說我們要能夠激勵財政的努力，不能只是中央分配給它，而形成一個財政的怠惰，以及強化財政紀律，我想這個部分都要考慮到，我們先把幾個原則擬出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，部長，這些原則很好，但是我聽起來就是財政部自己的規劃跟想法，我比較想知道有沒有去蒐整地方政府的意見？"],["莊部長翠雲：有的，所以我們就先請地方政府表達對於分配指標……因為我們這個是原則，但是分配指標要怎麼樣來做、有怎麼樣的需求，所以各地方政府也提出來了，但是因為差距性很大，另外就是指標的內容不夠具體……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們還在凝聚共識階段？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，今天我其實是要關心……我覺得有一些東西應該修法，但是這十年來沒有修，我們的地制法在這二十五年當中，其實有遇到兩都變六都，而原住民鄉在六都整併的過程當中，曾經一度失去公法人的地位，在2014年修法之後，恢復公法人地位，但是問題很多。我在這裡想要請教一下，以桃源區公所來講，它位在高雄市，是六都之一的原區，與一般縣市相比，其實在合併的時候，它的稅課收入瞬間轉零、取消，我在3月的時候也曾經質詢過，想要請教一下原民會洪副處長，這個問題原民會有沒有掌握？看法是什麼？"],["洪副處長玲：跟委員報告，高雄縣成為直轄市之後，本來由本會所負責的基本設施維持費的部分，變成沒有直接補助給原民區公所，可是後來透過修法的方式，現在有關於高雄市三個原住民地區的基本設施維持費，我們還是直接撥補給三個區公所。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，意思就是說只有原民會負責的基本設施維持費是有去維持，但其他的問題你沒有說出來。我們來看一下，其實2014年修正地制法第八十三條之二第一項的時候，我們有寫到「準用本法關於鄉（鎮、市）之規定」，可是按照地制法第八十三條之三第一項第二款，關於財政事項，它原來的稅捐、公共債不見了。我們去查當時黨團協商的時候，財政部有承諾原住民區的財政自治。我們來細看一下改制前，地制法第八十三條之七有提到山地原住民區實施自治所需的財源，要維持改制前各該山地鄉統籌分配的財源水準，而且是提到前三年。以六都的高雄市桃源區跟一般縣市的新竹泰安鄉來比，乍看之下，好像前幾年沒有差異，也就是藍色顯現的部分，可是你去細看後面這幾年隨著政府的財源、經濟越來越好，以2021年來講，它的差距是四千萬，2022年差距六千萬，2023年差距六千萬，會越來越高，我們如果不修法，這樣的情形就會一直維持，所以我也提出了修法的內容，其實很簡單，就是把漏掉的補進去，把直轄市的山地原區納進來就可以了，這是我的修法版本。我在3月7號針對財政部業務報告詢答時，我要求要跟直轄市原民區公所單獨開會，聽取他們的意見並納入修法，我想要問部長，目前辦理的情形如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們再進一步的釐清，就如同剛剛委員所說的，對於直轄市原民區的部分，因為按照地制法的規定，原民區的財政自治事項只包含財產的經營處分以及歲入部分，但並不包含稅捐及公債，因為它的財政自治事項裡面不包含這個，以至於在財劃法裡面，它的財政層級就沒有辦法把它放進去。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我現在來回應：第一個，我看到你們3月14號有發文給有原區的四個直轄市，包括新北市政府、桃園、臺中、高雄，但是這個跟我的本意不同，我是指直轄市的山地原住民區公所，我希望能夠找他們單獨開會，聽取他們的意見，針對這個部分，我們可以怎麼樣彌補嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個當然是涉及到地制法的部分，不只是財劃法的規定，這個部分如果要聽取他們的意見，我建議是不是可以跟內政部一起來討論，看看怎麼樣來處理，主要是因為地制法的關係。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可以啊！我看到星期三好像我們的召委有邀各縣市政府來嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：有的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可以一起邀嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：邀什麼……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：直轄市的原住民區公所。"],["莊部長翠雲：那要看召委的安排。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：您是提到會跟內政部一起邀嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我也有看到專報裡面提到針對伍麗華委員等十七人提案，你們說宜由內政部審慎評估，循修正地制法來推動。我要跟您說：對，我也同步提案修正了。也就是針對地制法第八十三條之三，我也有提出修法版本，目前也已經送出去了，就是把原來漏掉的升格之前應分配的稅捐及公共債放進去了。這個部分就麻煩部長，因為這個問題我很關切，十年來被落掉，嚴重影響這幾個直轄市的原住民區，我覺得這個部分我們應該要來審慎的重視，因為這是我們修法的錯誤，部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，瞭解。因為委員同時也提了有關地制法的修正條文，您是同步在兩邊的法案裡面做配套的處理，我們跟內政部再來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，那就麻煩財政部和內政部，我們就積極的處理，至少把這些原民區找過來，聽取他們的意見，聽取他們的痛苦，聽取他們想要怎麼來請我們的政府幫忙，這樣可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，聽取意見是很重要的，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。","我另外想要請教一下主計總處主計長，簡單一分鐘就好，今天談到財政劃分，當然我們也會關心我們的中央政府總預算，我本來是想要瞭解中央政府總預算餘絀的狀況，最主要是我看到專報裡面有統計這八年來的統籌稅款挹注情形，看起來112年相較105年度是成長了56%，可是我就想問、想瞭解地方的財源增加，是不是等於地方財政的改善？我們那麼努力的把餅做大，我不太曉得到底這些地方財政的統籌稅及特別預算的補助款是怎麼樣，我很想要這十年來的資料，讓我可以準備後續的審查，這個資料可以拿到我辦公室嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們會送給委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK，這也是要提醒一下啦，因為大家在這個地方一直講一直關心，其實有一些我不知道是似是而非，還是刻板印象，但我們總是要拿到數據之後去做科學的分析嘛，對不對？那就拜託也謝謝主計總處，同時也謝謝財政部長、謝謝主席。"],["陳主計長淑姿：謝謝委員。"],["主席（李委員彥秀代）：謝謝，我們結束伍麗華委員的質詢。","接下來請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":1.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.185968750000001,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.531593750000003,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.234718750000003,"end":52.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.18284375,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.860968750000005,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.06221875000001,"end":125.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.05784375,"end":125.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.99784375000002,"end":143.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.27846875,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.04409375,"end":162.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.21659375000002,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.25034375,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.12784375,"end":170.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.82284375,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.24409375000002,"end":183.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.73221875000002,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.09659375,"end":231.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.38284375,"end":232.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.24346875,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.20284375000003,"end":266.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.79534375000003,"end":277.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.99596875000003,"end":278.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.65409375,"end":279.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.97034375000004,"end":287.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.69909375000003,"end":291.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.16659375,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.28034375000004,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.09346875,"end":306.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.00409375000004,"end":317.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.36096875000004,"end":319.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.74471875,"end":322.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.00159375000004,"end":362.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.04596875000004,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.14846875,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.82971875000004,"end":453.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.08346875,"end":447.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.10034375000004,"end":447.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.59784375000004,"end":451.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.44971875000005,"end":452.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.02346875,"end":454.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.47909375,"end":454.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.96409375,"end":454.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.14971875000003,"end":479.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.00659375000004,"end":483.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.38971875000004,"end":499.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.56221875000006,"end":488.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.43096875000003,"end":491.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.97034375000004,"end":496.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.57346875,"end":499.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.56471875000005,"end":501.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.56846875,"end":508.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.56784375,"end":507.09096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.50846875,"end":510.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.53346875000005,"end":512.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.17034375,"end":517.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.5078437500001,"end":514.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.85346875,"end":518.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5828437499999,"end":520.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.4097187500001,"end":521.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.26159375,"end":523.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.08409375,"end":536.5715937500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- 10:22:27","影片長度":"00:13:40","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T10:08:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:22:27+08:00","duration":820,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":400,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時8分）謝謝主席。我請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好！剛才我們李彥秀委員有特別提到，當時賴清德擔任行政院長的時候，他也提出過要修財劃法，但是每次都是嘴巴講講，最後沒有行動。","事實上，財劃法該不該修正，並不是只有藍白的委員覺得應該要修正，或者是藍白的縣長覺得應該要修正；5月15日陳其邁市長在高雄市議會答詢的時候，公開喊話韓國瑜院長，要求韓國瑜院長要幫忙修正財劃法；包括黃偉哲市長，之前也看到，他也特別提到，財劃法應該把餅做大。所以現在財劃法要修正絕對不是只有國民黨與民眾黨提出而已，其實很多綠營執政的縣市首長也非常希望能夠做修正，因為實在是太久沒有修正了，可是到目前為止我看起來，財政部及現在的行政院就是一副按兵不動，能拖就拖。我想請教部長，到目前為止，我們新任的行政院院長卓榮泰院長有沒有跟你談到財劃法修正的事宜？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法的修正其實我們已經開始在作業，也就是我們已經初擬了修法的原則，同時也請地方政府對於分配指標的部分提出意見，所以並不是在拖，上次我們跟卓院長之間對這些事情也都有討論，這個部分的分配公式，我們必須要凝聚共識，這個是理解的。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我要確定一下，卓院長已經有正式跟你提到要推動修正財劃法了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個是我們團隊裡面的一些內部討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以看起來還沒有，因為有的話，你就會說有了，所以這就是拖啊！在這個議題……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我覺得沒有在拖，其實我們一直都在作業。"],["王委員鴻薇：連高雄市長陳其邁都已經拜託韓院長，也很奇怪他為什麼拜託韓院長，他應該去拜託卓院長才對，對不對？5月15日已經知道卓榮泰要當行政院院長，所以他很奇怪，他應該去跟卓榮泰說。所以剛才我看到很多委員都有在追問，你們什麼時候拿出你們的版本，但是你好像都沒有任何的回應。"],["莊部長翠雲：我有回應，也有說明，也就是版本必須要有共識的情況下才提出來，我只提出版本，但是沒有共識，這樣依然是不會成就的，所以為什麼過去5度提出修法的版本，但是依然是沒有完成修法程序，也就是沒有共識，所以我們現在在努力做的就是讓共識凝聚起來。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實這就是中央的陽謀……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有什麼陽謀。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為每一次都只要說你們沒有共識，然後就不修正，所以一拖拖25年，我覺得這一次其實已經勢在必行，第一個，時間實在是太長了，而且現在要修正也完全是突破藍、綠、白，都有共識，應該要做修正，剛才有的講國民黨的版本怎麼樣怎麼樣，是獨厚藍營執政的縣市等等之類的，但是重點是你們趕快提出版本，提出版本，大家才可以一起來併案討論，你們不提出版本，也不能夠因為你遲遲不提出版本，財劃法就原地不動。","我們來看一下，為什麼財劃法修正已經是箭在弦上、勢在必行？因為事實上我們國稅的成長率是非常高的，在這10年它已經達到一倍以上了，但是我們地方稅的成長率偏低，所以造成地方如果是靠地方稅收的話，根本不足以因應；再加上現在我們每一次選舉中央都有很多的支票，但是這些支票開出來之後，很多都是由地方來買單，包含我們軍公教的調薪，包含警勤加給，或者消防空中勤務加給，或者環境部宣布要提高清潔隊獎金，這麼多的支票並不是由中央買單，而是要由地方來買單，所以也造成這幾年每到選舉之後地方的財政支出等於要重新編列預算；再來，我們這幾年推動的前瞻，我想部長也應該知道，因為前瞻要地方自籌一半，所以前瞻計畫也變成地方財政一個極大的負擔，而且你如果看審計部所提出來的，就是這幾年剛開始地方還會特別一直來配合編自籌款，可是隨著時間一年一年的過去，地方能夠自籌的能力事實上是一直下降的，所以他們的自籌率可能從原來的八成，一步一步下降，在前年大概只有六成左右。","我要特別提出來，剛才在說我們這個財劃法是在獨厚藍營執政的縣市，不是的，絕對不是的，因為大家都知道，其實我們現在整個的財政結構是中央集錢又集權，所以地方自籌的財源比例是偏低的，我們可以看到，除了六都，確實六都的自籌率比較高，就是它的財政能力比較高之外，以財政部2023年的資料，在2020年全部22個縣市政府中，竟然高達14個縣市的自籌財源比例是低於三成以下。部長，你應該知道我在講什麼，如果一個縣市，它的自籌財源占它的歲出到三成以下的時候，這代表什麼？這代表它只有仰中央的鼻息，它要靠著中央給它補助，它要靠著中央給它錢，因為如果按照這樣的比例，自有財源占歲出比例甚至不到三成，它一定要把中央當成它的爸爸，當成它的金主，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，自籌……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這就是為什麼中央一直都不願意真正地來修正財劃法。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，自籌財源是屬於它自己的，不包含統籌分配稅款，所以統籌分配稅款加進去以後，就成為它的自有財源，因為統籌分配稅款視同地方的稅課收入，就會提高。另外，雖然財劃法沒有修，但是透過一般性的補助款，依然會去彌補它的財政收支差短，是優先的……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯，你既然講到補助款……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個部分一定會做，雖然財劃法沒有修，但是對地方財政的需求依然會去做的。"],["王委員鴻薇：你既然要講到補助款，非常好，補助款就是掌握在中央的手上，而這個補助款就可以隨著中央，甚至各部會，甚至看藍綠來辦事，比如說，我們以112年中央挹注在地方的財源，按統籌稅款，再加上補助收入，我們統籌稅款哪一個縣市是最高？"],["莊部長翠雲：臺北。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒錯，因為臺北的財政努力程度，還有我們過去上繳的程度，可是加上補助收入之後，第一名是誰呢？你可以用膝蓋想，跟王義川一樣，用膝蓋想就知道了，高雄市。就如同前瞻，過去審計部也特別提出，在整個前瞻補助裡面，高雄市拔得頭籌，是第一名，我們臺北市大概只有高雄市的十分之一，高雄市有超過一千億，臺北市只有一百多億，你可以看出來它的親疏遠近。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，加上一般性補助款，臺北市依然是最高的。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，112年如果加上補助收入，第一名是高雄市，第二名是新北市，第三名才變成臺北市，所以你們可以利用補助款的方式分出親疏遠近，這也就是為什麼我們在這一次的財劃法裡面，希望能把統籌款這個大餅整個做大，而不要處處去仰中央鼻息。比如說剛才特別提到馬祖，說馬祖這次可能會增加很多，如果你看我剛剛講的，同樣的，我們的自籌財源比例，其實真的啦！我們真的不是只有分藍綠，比如說，嘉義縣、屏東縣都是綠營執政的縣市，它的自籌率一樣也只有14%跟17%而已，它的比例也是偏低的，所以我們並沒有去獨厚藍營執政的縣市。同樣的，綠營執政的嘉義跟屏東，我們也認為它的自籌占歲出比例實在是太過偏低，只是因為就是又有藍綠的差別，所以在前瞻裡面，屏東一樣可以拿比較多的前瞻預算，甚至停車場一次可以蓋6個，一次蓋到6個停車場，而且是在同一個大公園旁邊一次蓋6個停車場，停車場之間平均距離500公尺。這個合理嗎？當然不合理。","我們覺得與其如此，你還不如讓它自有的財源能夠變得更高一些，比如說剛剛講到馬祖連江縣，它甚至不到10%，所以在這一次的財劃法修正，我要特別提出來，財劃法修正是藍、綠、白的共識，我剛剛特別提到陳其邁還要求韓國瑜，拜託你趕快幫我們修財劃法。它既然是一個勢在必行，箭在弦上的修法，那麼重點就是財政部趕快拿出你的版本，對國民黨來講，至少我們找了國民黨執政縣市，還包含苗栗縣及民眾黨執政的新竹市，我們拿來一起談，而且大家也願意讓利，因為大家知道，最重要的目標是要讓中央能夠把錢、把這個大餅給地方比較多一點，否則縣市之間自己吵來吵去，正中下懷。我覺得至少這一次在很多的縣市裡面已經有這樣的共識，所以部長請趕快把財劃法列為第一位優先，還有趕快去找卓院長，這麼重要的事情院長竟然都沒有找你來聊一下、討論一下，這個是不合理的好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，剛剛已經提過，財劃法的工作我們一直持續都在做，我們也在凝聚最大的一個共識。"],["王委員鴻薇：儘快提出來，因為你到剛才都沒有提到你的時間表。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有共識提出來的版本依然是沒有辦法完成修法的。"],["王委員鴻薇：你要努力啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們就是在努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：這永遠就是在推託，那請問為什麼我們可以有共識？我們這16個縣市彼此也會要爭啊！我多一點，你多一點，可是大家覺得我們願意讓利，但是重點是把大餅做大，如果大家有這樣的共識，你其實推出來，有共識並不難啦！不要再用各種理由去推託了。"],["莊部長翠雲：不會推託，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.69221875,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.054718750000003,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.73784375,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.35721875,"end":18.812843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.11659375,"end":19.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.33159375,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.925968750000003,"end":26.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.22096875,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.26596875,"end":46.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.72409375,"end":70.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.14221875,"end":89.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.63721875,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.23409375,"end":113.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.71346875,"end":123.64034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.69096875000001,"end":130.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.47471875000002,"end":142.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.24971875,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.38034375,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.60784375,"end":142.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.11409375,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.02471875,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.00659375,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.31034375000002,"end":156.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.96846875,"end":157.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.57596875000002,"end":157.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.94721875000002,"end":158.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.28471875,"end":159.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.32659375,"end":187.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.36034375,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.02284375000002,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.05659375000002,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.30971875,"end":187.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.37284375000002,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.53471875000002,"end":206.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.23909375000002,"end":208.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.97284375,"end":282.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.67721875,"end":213.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.37909375000004,"end":290.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.95596875,"end":316.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.21784375000004,"end":321.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.93409375000005,"end":340.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.04096875000005,"end":369.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.64409375,"end":370.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.36971875,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.49596875000003,"end":404.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.84534375000004,"end":409.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.36784375,"end":410.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.02159375,"end":413.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.10971875,"end":414.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.25721875000005,"end":422.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.15471875000003,"end":423.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.18409375000005,"end":425.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.51284375,"end":434.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.56221875000006,"end":435.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.33409375,"end":437.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.56596875,"end":440.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.92409375000005,"end":443.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.84346875000006,"end":453.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.23409375000006,"end":456.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.88784375,"end":459.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.22909375,"end":461.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.16971875,"end":462.82784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.38471875000005,"end":468.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.78971875,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卓院長已經有正式跟你提到要推動修正財劃法了嗎?我想這個是我們團隊裡面的一些內部的討論,是。所以看起來還沒有,因為有的話你就會說有了。"},{"start":158.391,"end":187.39,"text":"所以這就是拖呀?在這個議題已經連陳其邁、高雄市長都已經拜託韓院長也很奇怪他為什麼拜託韓院長?他應該去拜託卓院長才對啊對不對?因為15號已經知道卓榮泰要當行政院院長了所以他很奇怪他應該去跟卓榮泰說所以剛才我看到很多委員都有在追問說那你們什麼時候拿出你們版本啊?但是你好像都沒有任何的回應"},{"start":188.771,"end":208.025,"text":"有回應也有說明也就是說版本必須要共識情況下才提出來我只提出版本但是沒有共識這樣依然是不會成就的所以為什麼過去五度提出修法的版本但是依然是沒有完成修法程序也就是沒有共識所以我們現在努力做的就是讓共識凝聚起來這就是中央的揚摩嘛"},{"start":211.727,"end":235.431,"text":"因為每一次都是只要說你們沒有共識然後就不修正所以一拖拖25年了那我覺得在這一次其實已經勢在必行第一個時間實在是太長了而且現在其實要修正也是完全是突破藍綠白都有共識應該要做修正剛才別人講說國民黨的版本怎麼樣怎麼樣是獨厚"},{"start":238.912,"end":260.773,"text":"獨厚藍營執政縣市等之類的,但是重點是你們趕快提出版本啊,提出版本大家才可以一起來做並案討論,那你們不提出版本而不能夠因為你遲遲不提出版本,然後財劃法就原地不動。好,我們來看一下為什麼這個財劃法修正已經是見在弦上,勢在必行。"},{"start":263.175,"end":270.457,"text":"支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院"},{"start":291.062,"end":292.203,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具"},{"start":308.029,"end":319.656,"text":"收支劃分法 並不是由中央買單,而是要由地方來買單。所以也造成這幾年每到選舉之後,地方的財政支出,他們等於要重新編列預算。"},{"start":322.984,"end":323.244,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":341.729,"end":368.899,"text":"審計部所提出的就是這幾年的地方,比如剛開始地方還會特別的一直來配合來編這個自籌款可是呢隨著這個時間的這樣子一年一年的過去而地方能夠自籌的能力事實上是一直下降的所以他們的自籌率可能從原來的八成然後一步一步的下降大概在前年只有六成左右"},{"start":369.699,"end":373.742,"text":"好,我這個要特別提出來的,剛才在說呀,就是我們這個財劃法是在獨厚藍營的執政縣市,不是的,絕對不是的因為大家都知道,其實我們現在整個的財政結構是中央集錢又集權"},{"start":390.533,"end":394.755,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政"},{"start":414.181,"end":443.012,"text":"竟然高達14個縣市他的自籌財源比例是低於三成以下。部長你應該知道我在講什麼如果一個縣市他的自籌財源占他的稅出到三成以下的時候這代表什麼?這代表他只有養中央的鼻息嗎?他要靠著中央給他補助"},{"start":443.933,"end":446.954,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":462.236,"end":482.933,"text":"是不是委員所以這就是為什麼自籌中央一直都不願意真正的來修正才劃法不是自籌財源是屬於他自己的不包含統籌分配稅款所以統籌分配稅款加進去以後他就成為他的自有財源因為統籌分配稅款是同地方的稅客收入就提到"},{"start":483.894,"end":485.376,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答"},{"start":502.032,"end":526.958,"text":"這就是補助款就是掌握在中央的手上而這個補助款就可以隨著中央甚至各部會甚至看藍綠來辦事別說我們以112年112年中央挹注在地方的財源按統籌稅款再加上補助收入那我們統籌稅款哪一個縣市是最高啊"},{"start":531.22,"end":542.586,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11會期財政"},{"start":549.366,"end":578.846,"text":"高雄市 高雄市就如同前瞻過去審計部也特別提出整個的前瞻在補助裏面高雄市拔得頭籌第一名啊我們台北市呢其實比高雄市大概只有高雄市的十分之一啊高雄超過一千億然後台北市呢就一百多億可以看看委員加上一般性補助款台北市依然是最高的"},{"start":579.366,"end":579.906,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":601.958,"end":627.232,"text":"希望把籌款能夠他這個大餅整個做大而不要處處的去養中央比席比如說剛才特別提到馬祖哇說馬祖這次可能他會增加很多如果你今天看我剛才講說同樣的我們的自籌財源比例其實真的啦我們真的說不是只有芬蘭綠比如說在嘉義縣、屏東縣都是綠營執政的縣市對不對"},{"start":629.933,"end":630.253,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續"},{"start":650.538,"end":655.42,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法：一、繼續擬具:「財政"},{"start":675.871,"end":677.153,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":692.213,"end":703.842,"text":"甚至不到百分之十。所以在這一次的財化法修正我要特別提出來財化法修正他是藍綠白的共識我剛特別提到陳其邁還要求韓國瑜拜託你趕快幫我們修財化法"},{"start":708.846,"end":709.707,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查"},{"start":725.006,"end":744.666,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具:「財政收支劃分法、委員"},{"start":745.52,"end":751.104,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第16期財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案．一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》"},{"start":769.377,"end":770.979,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查〈財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查〉"},{"start":789.818,"end":808.187,"text":"我們在16個縣市彼此也會要爭啊我多一點你多一點可是大家覺得說我們願意讓利願意讓利但是重點是把大餅做大如果大家有這樣的共識你其實推出來並不難啦不要再用各種理由去推脫不會推脫謝謝委員現在請吳立華吳委員"}]}},{"id":"153448","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153448","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7071b6859aa7982e4a859c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c851e85303a1be6c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"09:59:11 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10:11:50","影片長度":"00:12:39","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:59:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:11:50+08:00","duration":759,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時59分）謝謝主席、雪生兄。請陳耀祥主委。"],["主席：耀祥主委。"],["蔡委員其昌：請中華電信，今天3家中只有1家嘛？"],["主席：郭董，嗯。"],["蔡委員其昌：另外2家有來嗎？"],["主席：沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有來，那就中華電信當代表。另外請個人資料保護委員會的鄭副主任也一起。"],["主席：鄭副主任。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：3位好。今天主席排的這個題目，我的理解上，我並不希望把它理解成王義川先生個人的事件，但是這個事件的背後有很重要的價值。我覺得人權是民進黨從政黨員非常重要的價值，是我們這個黨很重要的DNA，所以我在立法院將近20年的時間，過去我每次都會對科技發展提出質詢。我十幾年前還必須每天質詢，eTag剛啟用的時候我就曾在交通委員會問了一個問題，當時立法院的院長叫王金平，我就問：王院長的座車經過哪幾個交流道，誰可以去調這個資訊？當時交通部的回答是員警就可以調資訊。這都牽涉到個資的保護，所以對我而言這個題目很重要，因為我一直在強調一個觀念──如果人權的保障跟不上黃仁勳，那AI是福是禍？AI也有可能是災難啊！AI有可能是災難！","這幾天黃仁勳的新聞占滿了新聞媒體各個版面，不是只有經濟的版面，甚至還有政治的版面，因為對岸的小粉紅對於黃仁勳的講話也很感冒，他說臺灣是重要的國家，是AI產業的支柱嘛，所以對方也很抓狂。體育版也占滿了，因為黃仁勳到我們中華職棒大巨蛋味全的主場去開球，所以他幾乎占據了所有的版面。黃仁勳為什麼會得到那麼多關注？是因為黃仁勳NVIDIA的GPU帶動了整個AI產業在全球的發展，讓AI產業帶動的發展改變了人類的生活。換言之，我們面對科技趨勢其實是相對的，因為在未來AI的時代裡面，透過大數據的蒐集、分析，教會AI，讓這個電腦、機器人學習人類所有的行為，而能夠教導這些電腦的其實就是我們的大數據。大數據的運用在這幾年，就算AI還沒有成形，數據的經濟、數據的科技早就已經運用在包括醫療，未來醫療的判讀，譬如照完X光之後，到底生了什麼病？醫生都可能被取代。這個就是發展的趨勢。","回過頭來，對於這些大數據的data，如果我們的法規跟不上，如果我們法規對人權的保障、隱私權的保障跟不上，那麼各位想想這到底是福還是禍？這是不是災難？所以我一直在強調這一點。為什麼我對個資保護委員會籌備處非常在乎，就是因為這個。","好，我們現在回過頭來看這個事情。先看一下現在我們對於電信公司所提供的這些數據的運用狀況，我只舉幾個縣市政府為例，你可以在臺中市政府的網站裡面找到這些它對觀光景點的分析資料，我想請問一下陳主委，在目前的法規裡面，去跟三大電信業者買了手機的大數據資料，分析完之後，公布了性別、人次、年齡，這是合法還是非法？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，如果它是一個輪廓性的資訊，比如說20歲到40歲，性別男女等等，如果以這些輪廓性資訊來講的話，可以去識別化，也就是不會直接或間接跟個人連結的話，那就是合法的。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以關鍵是去識別化。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，換言之，臺中市政府、新北市政府這個都是合法的，不管是縣市政府自己去跟電信公司買這個數據資料，然後進行分析，或者是他們再委託數據公司、公關公司進行這個數據的分析，以目前的法規來講，這個都是合法的。也就是說，公布人次、公布性別、公布年齡，只要是在去識別化的前提底下，不知道幾歲的這個人是誰（去識別化的意思就是這樣），譬如說蔡其昌當天在現場，這個不行！對不對？但是我的年紀，譬如說我55歲，如果說裡面有一個55歲的，這個是合法的，對不對？我們先釐清嘛！案子要處理一定要先釐清。數據的買賣隨著科技的發展，三大電信公司都有提供這樣的服務，郭董事長，這樣對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，只要是去識別化、輪廓性的分析資料，這是合法的。"],["蔡委員其昌：是合法的，你們都有在買賣？"],["郭董事長水義：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：我也可以買？"],["郭董事長水義：提供……"],["蔡委員其昌：任何一個人都可以去買你們的資料，對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：我們針對那個活動的主辦單位，只要它非關政黨、政治性議題，我們都會提供人潮分析的資料。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，我要問的是說：這是三大電信業者的business，對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：是你們的商業活動嘛！"],["郭董事長水義：對，是我們的商業活動、我們的業務項目之一。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你們商業活動提供出來的這些data、這些數據基本上就已經去識別化了，對不對？"],["郭董事長水義：對，我們在進行分析之前都去識別化了。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我想請問副主任，我沒有針對，因為今天只有中華電信列席。三大電信業者未來所販售的資料裡面，如果有可能沒辦法去識別化，或者去識別化之後還可回溯，那麼未來個人資料保護委員會籌備處有什麼樣的因應措施？"],["鄭副主任其昀：蔡委員好。跟委員報告一下，在目前的電信管理法裡面，針對可以回溯的個人資料（也就是非匿名化的資料）其實已經有一個機制，就是需要當事人同意，當然這個機制還是要去落實。"],["蔡委員其昌：那麼如果發現三大電信業者有人違規的時候，我們的處理機制是什麼？"],["鄭副主任其昀：報告委員，現行個資法有關電信業者的部分基本上可以由NCC來處理，將來委員會成立，還是會繼續處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：站在資料保護主管單位的立場，你覺得現在的處罰和保護個人資料的機制夠不夠？法規或者處罰的金額夠不夠？"],["鄭副主任其昀：在111年憲判字第13號判決之後，其實我們已經理解很多機制我們大概都會重新檢視，將來我們還會提出更好的機制。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們現在是籌備處，其實我對你們這個單位寄予無限的期待。"],["鄭副主任其昀：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：很簡單，我剛剛講，所有的法規（因為時間很有限，我沒辦法一一告訴你）隨著科技發展，對於相關的可能洩漏個資的防範或者是對人權的保障，其實你責任重大，所以你必須跟著黃仁勳，你不能落後黃仁勳，你要跟著他、知道現在整個AI發展到什麼程度，這個科技的運用可能對人權、對個資的保護產生什麼樣的重大影響。對岸已經在展現實力給你看了！對岸對所有的消費行為、你這一輩子買了什麼東西，資料、data清清楚楚，你走在路上所有的資訊，照著你、人臉辨識，清清楚楚，所以如果不把個資保護做好、如果今天個資保護委員會不趕快成立，同時透過法規的建置，AI運用得不好，會是集權主義的溫床。更多的想像是：到底是人類用機器人，還是未來機器人統治人類？它都不再是科幻電影裡面的情節，它可能會在真實世界裡面上演。所以這就是我對於你們這個單位的期許，你們身兼人權保護、個資保護，在科技的運用為人類帶來方便的同時，背後應該去想的是：人做為一個人的價值是什麼？這才是今天這個問題的關鍵啦！副主任，我所要表達的意思很清楚嘛！"],["鄭副主任其昀：謝謝委員，非常清楚，也非常感謝委員關心這個議題，其實我們目前也持續有在關注包含AI這種新興科技，也有一些平台在跟各部會合作。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。另外，我看了NCC的報告，主委在報告裡面有提到，你們馬上對三大電信業者進行了行政調查。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：對於這次的青鳥行動，沒有任何民間公司或個人跟三大電信業者購買這次的數據，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個確定嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：確定。"],["蔡委員其昌：除非三大業者說謊，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：否則你的調查是這樣子嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，就我看到你的報告的結論，任何人在講述這一次的青鳥行動，在我看來，只要業者沒有販售任何資料，看起來都是自我想像的，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：應該是這樣嘛！就是不管要上電視、上廣播或自己寫臉書，基本上都是他自己的推論跟想像，應該是這樣來理解嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我還是回到主題，勿枉勿縱，對於個資的保護、人權的保障，我們不應該隨著科技或者是哪一個政黨在執政而有所差別，這個是捍衛臺灣人的人權價值，跟我們對於每一個人的個資該有的保護，其實它也是國家安全，我們應該要不分黨派，來嚴格地把守這件事情。","最後剩下一個小小的問題，副主任，我們的籌備會到底要籌備到什麼時候才可以正式掛牌？"],["鄭副主任其昀：跟蔡委員報告，我們其實正在努力的持續，因為這中間還會有一些研議的修法，包含到個資法中間跟組織職權的配套，我們大概是努力在明年……"],["蔡委員其昌：好，你要快一點，這個時候你要提出修法，因為看起來現在藍綠都重視個資保護，不然今天主席就不會排這個題目了，既然大家都重視，風都來了，你還不揚帆，你就是蠢蛋了嘛！所以趕快，這些相關的修法，院長也說，像這個就是大家有共識，既然藍綠有共識，這個修法應該要加速進行，你的籌備時間也因為朝野立委對人權保護、對個資保護的支持，速度應該要加快，這樣可不可以？"],["鄭副主任其昀：是，謝謝，我們會儘快提出草案。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝主席，謝謝大家。"],["主席：好，謝謝副院長。副院長對今天這個議題持保留態度，當然副院長有他的高度，但畢竟這個大數據事情已經發生在青鳥行動，我跟副院長報告，在上一次蔡英文總統選舉的時候，我就看過這種東西啦！所以合法的流出與不合法的流出，這是一回事，大數據的承辦同仁、這個領導有沒有把東西流出去？不一定是買賣，私底下流出去那才可怕，對不對？既然王義川執行長吐露出來，尤其是從他這樣一個重要職務吐露出來的訊息，這真是有問題，所以我才設計把今天的議題定位到國家機器，這一點我跟副院長報告。","下一位請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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是我們的商業活動的我們的業務項目之一所以你們商業活動提供出來的這些data這些數據基本上就已經去識別化了對不對對 我們在進行分析之前都去識別化好那個我想請問副主任為三大我沒有針對因為只有今天只有中華電信來啦是三大電信業者未來所販售的資料裡面如果有可能"},{"start":414.54,"end":422.424,"text":"沒有辦法去識別化或者去識別化之後還可回溯那我們未來我們這個籌備會這個個人資料保護的這個籌備會未來你們有什麼因應措施"},{"start":428.917,"end":450.123,"text":"蔡委員好跟委員報告一下目前現在目前的行政電信的管理法裡面針對這個如果是可以回溯的這些個人資料也就是不是匿名化的資料其實它已經有一個機制就是會需要當事人同意那這個當然就是會這個機制還是要去落實那我們如果發現有人有三大電信業者違規的時候我們的處理機制是什麼"},{"start":452.702,"end":471.444,"text":"美國委員目前現在個資法目前就電信業者基本上已經可以由NC這邊來去處理那將來以後委員會成立還是會繼續處理好那你覺得站在你個人資料保護的主管單位的立場你覺得現在的處罰跟防保護個人資料的機制夠不夠法規或者處罰的金額"},{"start":474.214,"end":496.502,"text":"委員當然這個在111年憲判第13號解釋之後其實我們大概已經理解很多的機制我們大概都會重新再來去檢視那將來我們還會再去提出更好的你現在是籌備處啦其實我對於你們這個單位我寄予無限的期待謝謝委員你很簡單我剛剛講所有的法規"},{"start":497.922,"end":513.468,"text":"這裡面因為時間很有限我沒有辦法一一告訴你這裡面隨著科技的發展你所要防範的相關的可能洩漏個資或者可能在這個這個對人權保障上面其實你責任重大"},{"start":514.485,"end":532.834,"text":"所以你必須要走在你要跟著黃仁勳啊你不能落後黃仁勳啊你要跟著他知道說現在整個AI發展到什麼程度這一個科技的運用可能對人權對個資的保護產生什麼樣重大影響對岸已經在展現實力給你看了"},{"start":533.923,"end":561.842,"text":"對岸從所有的消費行為你一天你這一輩子你買了什麼東西資料Data清清楚楚你走在路上所有的資訊照著你人眼辨識清清楚楚所以如果不把這些個資保護做好如果今天啊這個個資保護的這個委員會這個籌備會不趕快來成立然後同時透過法規的建制AI 運用不好他是極權主義的溫床"},{"start":564.09,"end":580.703,"text":"他是極權主義的文人那更多的想像是到底是人類用機器人還是未來機器人統治人類他都不再是科幻電影裡面的情節他可能會在真實世界裡面上演所以這個就是我對於"},{"start":582.574,"end":598.71,"text":"你們這個單位身兼對於人權保護對於個資的保護對到底科技的運用對人類帶來方便的同時我們應該要背後去想著人作為一個人的價值是什麼這個才是今天這個問題的關鍵"},{"start":601.753,"end":617.049,"text":"副主任你知道我所要表達的意思很清楚吧謝謝委員非常清楚那也非常感謝委員關心這個議題那我們其實目前也持續的有在關注包含AI、KL、新興科技那我們其實有一些平台其實會跟各部會一起合作那另外我看了NCC的報告"},{"start":617.99,"end":640.147,"text":"如果你有報告裡面有提到三大電信業者你們馬上進行了行政調查三大電信業者對於這一次的青鳥行動沒有任何的民間公司或個人跟三大電信業者購買這一次的數據對不對沒錯這個確定嘛除非三大業者說法對不對否則你的調查是這樣子沒錯"},{"start":641.588,"end":657.283,"text":"所以換言之不管任何人在運用就我看到你的報告的結論就任何人在講述這一次的侵略行動在我看來只要業者沒有販售任何資料看起來都是自我想像的"},{"start":658.144,"end":686.695,"text":"對不對應該是這樣嘛就自己不管要上電視上廣播自己寫臉書基本上都是他自己的推論跟想像應該是這樣來理解沒錯所以我還是回到主題啦勿枉勿重啦就是不可以對於個資的保護人權的保障我們不應該隨著科技或者是哪一個政黨在執政我們要有所差別這個是捍衛台灣人的這個人權的價值跟"},{"start":687.979,"end":706.054,"text":"我們對於每一個人各自該有的保護其實它也是國家安全我們應該要不分黨派來把這件事情嚴格的把守好那最後剩下一個小小的問題那個副主任我們的籌備會到底要籌備到什麼時候才可以正式掛牌"},{"start":706.658,"end":734.273,"text":"是跟那個蔡委員報告我們其實正在努力的持續因為這中間還會有一些研議的修法包含到各自法可能中間的一些跟組織職權的一些配套那我們大概是那個努力在名言好你要快一點喔修法齁這個時候你提出來因為藍綠現在看起來都重視這個個資保護嘛不然今天主席就不會排這個題目嘛那既然大家都重視齁風都來了你還不揚帆你就是蠢蛋了嘛"},{"start":735.069,"end":759.001,"text":"所以趕快這些相關的修法這個院長也說嘛像這個就是大家有共識藍綠有共識的這個修法應該要加速進行你的籌備時間也因為大家朝野立委支持對人權保護對於個資保護的支持所以你的速度應該要加快這樣可不可以是謝謝我們盡快提出草案好謝謝主席謝謝大家謝謝副院長"}]}},{"id":"153447","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153447","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707ae8b98a4419475f459c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c59d8f2b9dd4f3d665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"09:51:29 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謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC陳主委我們速發部黃部長好陳主委黃部 黃 部長喂哈好 謝謝 謝謝陳主委齁主委我看你的那個報告裡面吶你有寫到2020 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政府要設立AI生態園區是不是這樣子這是我們跟國發會還有國客會在努力的目標我認為啊 你有提到啦 第一個當然要土地嘛"},{"start":358.094,"end":384.699,"text":"對不對土地一定要有嘛第二個你說交通便利嘛部長AI生態園區啊最適合設立的就在台南高鐵特區啦就在台南沙崙我對沙崙還蠻熟的因為我個人有辦公室在那裡所以因為對你為什麼會熟因為我們台灣很多最重要的高等研究機構都設在這個地方所以沙崙周邊相關互相支援的"},{"start":385.923,"end":388.121,"text":"已經非常的完整了"},{"start":389.164,"end":415.72,"text":"所以國家如果未來要設立AI生態園區我們台南高鐵特區的沙輪是最適合的部長你的看法這個我還在先跟國會跟國科會開會不過我個人是對沙輪還蠻熟悉的我覺得那個生態應該是符合你所提出的幾項條件因為我注意到你有提到一點嘛交通要便利最好高鐵出來就到了這裡就是啦"},{"start":417.421,"end":439.071,"text":"是不是應該優先列入考量?有在考量的,沒錯。有在考量喔?我們私底下再談啦。OK,好。這個最適合的啦。我們待會兒沒必要再寫下去啦。你南部要找一個沒有比這個地方更好的啦。再跟委員請教。好。那個AI生態運區一定要考慮設在我們台南,台南那個高鐵的沙崙啦,好不好?好,謝謝部長。謝謝,謝謝委員。"}]}},{"id":"153446","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153446","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707f7a2f9224b02dcfd59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0cb850eed1fd1b92d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:43:20 - 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是要串接這些資料需要第一個需要法規的允許第二個要有很大的工程就說因為幾萬比較好比對對 這個不是那麼容易但我曾從技術方面去回答至於說剛剛講那個電信公司那個行政的我不是很清楚所以沒辦法回答好 那個黃市長你們現在有在調查嘛來 那個郭董事長來好 你們一直說沒有嘛三大電信業說沒有嘛"},{"start":204.909,"end":234.433,"text":"打死你們也說沒有啦我必須要提醒全黨挺議人情有可言但是整個政府挺議人會把台灣的人權把它當掉這必須我要提醒各位來 郭董事長我請教你一下國安局、調查局還有警政署有沒有曾經跟你們調過這些資料 有沒有"},{"start":236.105,"end":258.115,"text":"委員指的是哪一段時間的資料不是哪一段時間啦 有沒有啦過去如果有根據剛才向次長說明的他依照這個通保法相關的規定來調取有沒有提供你不要講那麼多當然是要依照這些一個就是正式的合法一個是徽法嘛"},{"start":258.835,"end":271.529,"text":"那我現在問你們非法你也不會講嗎?真的有你也不會講?我問的是合法的有沒有?合法的我們要配合提供有沒有嗎?有!多少件?這要統計要統計齁這個合法的應該可以提供給本宴啦"},{"start":279.912,"end":289.565,"text":"多少件就好了不需要針對多少件那我也要拜託我們陳主委像這種合法要不要召會你們"},{"start":292.205,"end":292.825,"text":"另外一個"},{"start":319.718,"end":321.019,"text":"主委,我特別要問,那看起來似乎"},{"start":344.688,"end":363.017,"text":"你們都沒有嘛 包括法務部 法務部就是個案在偵辦嘛 那你們三個電信公司都沒有嘛 那你們兩個監督單位還有那個主管單位 你們通通都是沒有 那見鬼啦"},{"start":364.195,"end":391.394,"text":"那為什麼王先生、王一川先生他有這些資料可以去分析這個分析人流都OK這個都可以掌握也可以有商業之行為現在是交叉比對可以把人員分辨出來也就是說有些參加小草的有些參加319的都不一樣的人可以去分析出來"},{"start":392.314,"end":407.243,"text":"問題在這裡所以我要拜託主委這個部分不是今天你來報告一下說這個沒有問題就不是這樣牽涉到人民的被監控的問題是非常嚴重的這個會贏效國際的"},{"start":409.464,"end":435.036,"text":"現在民主國家沒有人在這樣除了我們的賴總統說我不是民主國家他如果敢這樣講那我們沒話講還是在戒嚴時代那沒話講可是現在我們是民主國家這個事情是不容許最後一個我要請教主委如果假設這些通通沒有那很簡單就是假新聞"},{"start":436.687,"end":463.234,"text":"我正式跟你檢舉以現在的情況看起來現在那個黃次長他們已經在偵辦但是假新聞現在沒有我正式跟你檢舉這個假新聞你要怎麼處理可以不可以處理我們已法定程序處理這個如果說委員已經檢舉我們本身我正式檢舉有沒有落實事實查證這個部分我去處理好不好我正式跟你檢舉好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153445","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153445","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7075c24a0d4663ffc47b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0cc7dd2f281fdf83155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:57:37 - 10:08:36","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:57:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T10:08:36+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":319,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時57分）主席，有請莊部長還有陳主計長。"],["主席：請莊部長還有陳主計長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。你剛剛提到過去經過五次修法都沒有辦法修成，歷經了二十幾年，看起來你要再一次諮詢地方政府的財政單位。預計這個會期會提，還是下個會期會提院版？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分沒有時間表，為什麼？因為……"],["郭委員國文：沒有時間表？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為目前的差距還很大，我們儘量縮小。"],["郭委員國文：可是已經兵臨城下了，在野黨如果按照職權行使法的方式強行輾壓的話，再這樣拖下去，你的統籌分配款就沒有了，你知道嗎？你不擔心嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們希望不要這樣，為什麼？因為地方的財政要考慮，中央的財政韌性……"],["郭委員國文：好，你不希望這樣子，如果強行輾壓下去的話……我想請問一下主計長，強行輾壓下去，整個統籌分配款按照國民黨的版本，多給地方五千多億的情況下，傅崐萁總召又提到7月16號花東三案2兆的法案要通過，主計長編得出來嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果是5,777億影響真的很大，對中央總預算的籌編是有困難的，因為目前大家初步報114年的金額，大概有三兆兩千多億的概算。"],["郭委員國文：籌編有困難難道要舉債嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有辦法舉債，因為舉債有限制，總預算加特別預算流量是15%，這樣子的話……"],["郭委員國文：所以連舉債也沒有辦法處理。"],["陳主計長淑姿：連舉債都沒辦法。"],["郭委員國文：連舉債都沒有辦法處理。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["郭委員國文：剛剛大家有提到一點，部長也有提到這個部分還牽扯到其他事權，其他委員也有提到其他的法。你認為地方財政只有一個財政收支劃分法就可以決定嗎？還有沒有其他法案相關聯？"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方制度法。"],["郭委員國文：還有什麼法？"],["莊部長翠雲：主要是那個，因為地方制度法裡面有地方自治的……"],["郭委員國文：地方制度法牽扯到分責、分權的問題嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個就是權責。"],["郭委員國文：分責、分權的部分就牽扯到財政負擔比例的問題，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：地方制度法是一個關鍵，地方稅法通則是不是也是一個關鍵？"],["莊部長翠雲：地方稅法裡面當然有規定地方可以徵取一樣的稅。"],["郭委員國文：對，但是嚴格來說，地方稅法通則有四大限制，限制過多以至於地方縣市真的想自行找到稅基的可能性也不是非常多，是不是這個部分要通盤檢討一下，讓地方承擔起責任？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然這個部分我們也可以再通盤……"],["郭委員國文：一併思考，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：再檢視。"],["郭委員國文：對，就是要一併思考嘛！跟地方財政相關的不是只有財劃法而已，對不對？地方稅法通則、地方制度法，甚至連公債法都有關聯性，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有債限，也就是說，有一個債限在裡面。"],["郭委員國文：對，有一個債限，跟地方的財政有所關聯，對不對？舉凡跟地方財政相關夯不啷當，至少有這四個法要處理，你是不是要拿出四個法的配套才有可能健全地方的財政，而不是只從財劃法垂直思考，取奪更多中央的預算而已，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說的是，也就是在垂直分配這一塊，除了要求把稅款撥出這麼多，也要考慮事權。"],["郭委員國文：對，所以說……"],["莊部長翠雲：事權跟分配是有關係的。"],["郭委員國文：部長、主計長，你們不要陷入現在國、眾兩黨的思維，我們如果真的要健全地方財政，從這樣的思維思考的話，這四個法都要處理，對不對？如果四個法都要處理的話，你就要提出整個版本，這才是真的為了地方財政健全思考。更何況他說比例失衡，你要思考最近比例失衡的原因在哪裡。最近國稅增加比較多，還是地方稅增加比較多？"],["莊部長翠雲：國稅跟地稅都有增加，當然在地稅的部分，我們也希望地方政府能夠在財政的部分努力。"],["郭委員國文：說是這麼說，但是比例增加的很少，最近都是證交稅、營業稅、所得稅增加很多，對不對？原因是不是在這邊？"],["莊部長翠雲：證交稅確實增加比較多。"],["郭委員國文：對，你看看這兩年的補助款高達八千多億，真正地方的缺口大概是五百多億，對不對？從預算估計的話大概550左右。我跟你算過，老實說，1999年精省之後財劃法通過，我們有一個比例上有拗到地方，就是原來營業稅中央的占比大概50%，精省過之後營業稅的部分中央變占60%，我算過這10%挪過去之後多了五百多億出來，地方就不至於負債了。最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的負擔，這是第一個，要展現誠意。中央、地方搶錢大作戰，你看民眾黨大概多了三百多億，營所稅多這5%根本是高虹安條款，營所稅是高虹安條款。另外，國民黨還有3%的首都條款，那是蔣萬安條款嘛！剛剛李坤城擔心新北市，新北市裡頭人口的占比，國民黨的版本占67%之多，67%的比例是以人口來計算，這個根本是新北市條款。整個國民黨的版本除了厚首都、厚雙北之外，還厚縣市，這個是for國民黨執政縣市而訂定的財劃法法案，對不對？是不是如此？部長，我看你在點頭，你有沒有勇氣講出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前的版本以人口數作為很重的指標，確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。"],["郭委員國文：對，人口數最多的就是新北、臺北、臺中，對不對？整個版本是厚國民黨執政，輕民進黨執政，瘦到南、高，對不對？分配上會變成這樣子，不是嗎？你剛剛提到統籌分配款是為了整個均衡發展，政策目標是這樣子。我覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要以正視聽，統籌分配這個目標不是這樣處理的。橫向的分配來說，過往我們的統籌分配太偏重都會，以前就過多偏重都會；整個農村地區，像我所在的臺南偏重的部分，農地只能農用，都市的土地都能夠建造房子，配置上本來就不公平。部長，你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架，達到均衡的發展？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒錯，中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑盈虛，因為各地方政府的自然條件不同、工商條件也不同，所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑盈虛及區域均衡發展，這是非常重要的。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，部長，我再提醒一下，我想依照國民黨的也好，民眾黨的也好，他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡？就是財劃法該修，但是不具正當性的理由是財劃法不能亂修，不能只有以自己執政縣市的觀點來做分配而已，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是……"],["郭委員國文：是沒有錯嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：一定要去考慮整個平衡性。"],["郭委員國文：整個平衡性嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：如果是這樣平衡性的思考，你在架構這個思維的時候，要有一定的說服力，地方或許有不同的意見，地方會有本位思考的考量，地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源，這都屬正常，當地方都屬正常的情況底下，最後還是部長要拍板定案，財政部的版本出來之後，才有可能送到院，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：部長，所以你還是要抓一個時間點，你不能用沒有時間表作為一個理由、說法，這樣你很難說服目前立法院提出版本的相關黨團。"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解，我們現在就努力在做，努力這個部分，一定要把共識凝聚出來。"],["郭委員國文：那有沒有時間表？"],["莊部長翠雲：那就要看大家的共識什麼時候可以達成……"],["郭委員國文：我建議……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為沒有共識的情況下，縱使推出版本，也沒有辦法完成修法。"],["郭委員國文：我是覺得你要推出版本的同時，就如同我剛剛所講的，適時的把部分地方制度法的條文或者地方稅法通則的條文，還有包括公債法的條文，重點條文的部分也要納入，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的權責……"],["郭委員國文：對，我當然知道地制法是內政部的權力，但是大部分的法案都是你主政的，你主政的範圍先思考，可以不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，當然，有關地方稅法通則，我們也可以再來做檢視……"],["郭委員國文：對呀！不然，這種法修過之後，像馬祖地區整年的預算才44億，光中央補助統籌分配款，將來通過之後，會超過100億，一下子稅收增加double，你想它要怎麼執行，你有沒有考慮到？不是錢多而已，你要考慮到地方有沒有能力執行，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，財政紀律也是非常重要。"],["郭委員國文：對，財政紀律很重要，所以你要把這些不合理性一一列舉出來，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是。"],["郭委員國文：我想本委員會當中不分黨派基本上都認為要修，但是問題是怎麼修，怎麼修的癥結點還是來自於部的基本上的指標，好不好？","最後，我要問一下主計長，主計長，你知道我上上週有跟財政委員會去考察財政部所屬的文化資產部分，跟3年前的考察相比，這個其實都沒有變，為什麼沒有變？居然賦稅署的一個訓練中心連規劃費用的維修費用都拿不出錢來，還要4成跟新北市要，4成跟文化部要，它只能拿出2成，花了3年的時間，修復費用還高達1億多，一個超過120年的文化資產，就放在那裡「拋荒」。主計長，你上任之後，能不能來解決這個問題？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們來協助解決。"],["郭委員國文：好，協助處理，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：這個國家文化資產是屬於大家的，不能丟給部會，讓他們去傷腦筋，該花的錢要花……"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是各部會……"],["郭委員國文：你沒有修好之前，臺北市政府不可能移撥接管，莊部長，這件事情也麻煩你放在心上，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，是的。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝兩位，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.59096875,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.93221875,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.450968750000001,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.75409375,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.90159375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.41784375,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.65409375,"end":36.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.088468750000004,"end":37.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.36659375,"end":40.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.05409375,"end":42.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.06221875,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.29409375,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.45784375,"end":50.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.12846875,"end":53.423468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.91284375,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.70159375,"end":56.460968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.01346875,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.430968750000005,"end":60.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.78096875000001,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.49909375,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.10596875,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.51471875,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.64034375,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.09971875000001,"end":112.46909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.43284375,"end":101.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.64784375,"end":103.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.57971875000001,"end":107.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.65534375,"end":110.57909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.93346875,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.19471875,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.79971875,"end":130.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.81221875,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.89659375000002,"end":131.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.01034375,"end":133.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.79471875000002,"end":140.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.21221875,"end":148.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.31659375,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.75034375,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.31096875,"end":152.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.69909375,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.59596875,"end":165.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.63784375,"end":171.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.67159375,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.48971875,"end":170.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.12659375,"end":183.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.15409375000002,"end":190.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.30534375000002,"end":207.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.16034375,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.86346875,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.01846875,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.38096875000002,"end":252.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.56534375,"end":261.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.05346875000004,"end":262.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.25596875,"end":261.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.23471875,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.88846875,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.44034375,"end":323.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.92534375,"end":328.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.09346875,"end":333.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.75096875,"end":342.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.28971875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.38534375,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.26096875,"end":367.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.78346875,"end":376.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.7740937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財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":164.713,"end":181.569,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法�"},{"start":184.749,"end":207.407,"text":"公債法裡面當然最主要第一個就是有一個債限對有一個債限這也跟地方的財政有所關聯嘛對不對所以舉凡跟地方財政相關的看不當當至少有這四個法要處理嘛你是不是要拿出四個法的配套方式才有可能來健全地方的財政而不是只有從財法法存資思考來取得更多的中央預算而已對不對"},{"start":207.907,"end":220.282,"text":"是,委員說的是,也就是說在垂直分配這一塊除了要求把稅款要撥出這麼多,但是要考慮事權。對,所以說部長、部長、主席長,我是說你不要陷入現在齁,國眾兩黨的這一個思維"},{"start":223.285,"end":224.646,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":244.852,"end":245.493,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．"},{"start":261.355,"end":272.027,"text":"稅增加稅確實增加了很多。對,然後你看看這兩年的補助款來看,也高達8000多億,真正地方缺口大概是500多億,對不對?從預算估計的話大概550左右。我跟你算過,老實說,在當年1999年的時候,那時候經審之後的財法法通過的時候,"},{"start":281.678,"end":295.014,"text":"我們有一個比例上有凹到地方的部分就是原來我們營業稅的部分中央的部分大概是50%佔比大概50%經過之後營業稅的部分中央變佔60%"},{"start":297.496,"end":318.626,"text":"所以說大概我算過只要你這10%挪過去之後再多了500多億出來這地方就不至於負債了就不至於負債最起碼你修法的目標不要造成地方上的一個負擔嘛不要造成地方上的負擔這是第一個要展現出來的誠意然後你看中央地方搶錢大作戰你看喔民眾黨大概多了300多億這個銀索稅這個多這5%這根本是高雄安條款嘛"},{"start":324.96,"end":330.084,"text":"銀索稅條款、國民黨還有3%的首都條款、蔣安安條款。剛剛李昆城擔心說新北市,新北市裡頭人口佔比的部分以國民黨的版本有佔67%之多。"},{"start":342.452,"end":343.793,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":368.817,"end":388.656,"text":"版本以人口數為做一個很重的一個指標,確實會變成人口多的地方政府分配的會更大。對啊,人口數最多的就是新北嘛,台北嘛,台中嘛,對不對?所以說整個版本是後國民黨執政嘛,清民進黨執政嘛,受到那個,受到"},{"start":389.817,"end":416.788,"text":"難搞嘛 對不對分配商會變成這樣子嗎不是嗎那這樣子你剛剛提到說統籌分配款的部分是為了整個均衡發展嘛政策目標是這樣子嘛所以我是覺得你接下來提出來的時候一定要去以正式聽的部分是說統籌分配如果是這個目標不是這樣子處理的橫向的分配來說過往我們的統籌分配就是太偏重於都會了以前過多偏重於都會整個"},{"start":418.5,"end":432.481,"text":"農村地區,像我所在的台南,偏種的部分,即便上農地只能農用,都市的土地都能夠建造房子,配置上去本來就不公平啊,部長"},{"start":433.562,"end":462.31,"text":"你接下來的修法有沒有可能打破這個框架,達到一個均衡的發展?沒錯,中央統籌分配稅款的目的就是在於調劑營需,因為各地方政府的自然條件不同,工商條件也不同,所以這個部分就是要我們在水平分配上要能夠做到調劑營需跟區域均衡發展,這是非常重要的。我跟你講部長,我再提醒一下,我想依照那個國民黨也好,那個民眾黨也好,他們唯一正當性的理由在哪裡?"},{"start":463.05,"end":473.907,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案案。但是不具正當性的理由是財法法不能亂修不能只有以執政縣市的自己執政縣市的這個觀點來做分配而已 對不對"},{"start":476.372,"end":503.35,"text":"是沒有錯嗎?要去考慮這個整個的一個平衡性整個平衡性嘛如果是這樣平衡性的思考你在思考架構這個思維的時候你要有一定的說服力地方或許有不同的意見地方會有本位思考的考量地方想要爭取比較多的自有財源這都屬正常啊當地方都屬正常的情況底下最後還是部長你的版本你要拍板定案從你的部的版本形成出來之後你才有可能送到院嘛 對不對"},{"start":504.932,"end":524.205,"text":"所以說你還是要抓一個時間點嘛你不能用一個沒有時間表做一個理由說法嘛你很難說服目前立法院有版本提出版本的相關的黨團嘛部長了解但是我們現在就努力在做努力這個部分把共識一定要把它凝聚出來那也沒時間表"},{"start":525.633,"end":546.901,"text":"那就要看大家共識什麼時候可以達成了因為沒有共識的情況下縱使推出版本也沒有辦法完全修法我是覺得你要推出版本的同時就如同我剛剛所講的你要適時的把部分的地方制度法的一個條文或者地方稅法通則的條文還有包括公債法的這個條文的部分重點條文的部分你要納入可以不可以"},{"start":548.154,"end":575.316,"text":"但是因為地方制度法涉及到內政部的一個權責對當然啦一部分我當然知道地方制度法是內政部的權利啊但是有很多大部分的法案都是你主政的嘛你主政的範圍你先思考嘛可以不可以是當然有關那個地方稅法通則我們也可以再來做檢視對啊像他這種法修過之後有一些馬祖地區整年的預算才44億光中央補助統籌分配款將來通過之後會就超過100億欸你想一下子稅收增加double他要怎麼執行"},{"start":576.477,"end":580.601,"text":"財政基率很重要所以你要把這些不合理性你要一一列舉出來嘛 對不對所以我現在本委員會當中部分黨派基本上都認為要修啦但是問題是怎麼修的問題啦怎麼修的根結點還是來自於這部的一個基本上的一個指標嘛好不好那最後我要問一下主計長齁主計長"},{"start":601.218,"end":601.578,"text":"稅務署的訓練中心"},{"start":617.351,"end":634.268,"text":"連這一個規劃費用的維修費用啊都拿不出錢來還要4成跟新北市要4成的跟文化部要他只能拿出2成花了3年的時間充分費用還高達1億多一個文化資產超過120年的文化資產就放在那旁邊嘿"},{"start":636.463,"end":659.387,"text":"組長,你上任之後能不能來解決這個問題啊?我能來協助解決。協助處理好不好?是。這國家資產、文化資產是屬於大家的啊。不能丟個部會當裝去那邊傷腦筋啊。該花的錢要花。他不可能台北市政府跟你接管啊。一波接管。你沒有修好之前他不可能一波接管嘛。部長這件事情也麻煩你放在心上好不好?莊部長。好的。是的。好,謝謝兩位。"}]}},{"id":"153444","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153444","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7071fefc2cbd26c788bb263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c32efae0385dc65035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"09:46:50 - 09:57:26","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:46:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:57:26+08:00","duration":636,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（9時46分）謝謝主席，請莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。今天在討論財劃法，其實是有兩個命題啦！第一個命題就是，財劃法要不要修？第二個命題是，財劃法要怎麼修，對不對？那麼請問一下第一個命題，財劃法要不要修？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想各地方政府都有提出要修法的訴求，財政部也提出了一個修法的方向，所以目前來說，我們已經徵詢各地方政府對於分配公式裡面的指標來提出意見，那麼經過各地方政府提出以後，相關的指標因為定義也不是很清楚，不具有普遍性跟客觀性，所以這個部分我們請他們再釐清每一個指標的定義。"],["李委員坤城：部長的回答就是說……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們也會在這個月召請地方政府再來說明，我們希望就是，大家能夠把他們的意見反映出來，然後我們把差距縮小，凝聚一個最大的共識，因為大家都很在乎這個分配，這個分配的部分……"],["李委員坤城：我知道，部長已經把我兩個命題的答案都說出來了，第一個，財劃法要修對不對？第二個，要怎麼修？就是說垂直分配要怎麼去分配？水平分配就是各縣市對那一個公式、那個原則要怎麼修？大家還要再凝聚共識嘛！所以禮拜三會召開公聽會，公聽會結束之後，再根據公聽會的結果，大家再研議把有交疊共識越大的部分，按照這個共識再來修法嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我覺得共識是非常重要，因為過去也曾經5度提出修法的版本，但是也因為沒有共識，所以沒有能夠完成整個修法的程序，這個部分我們其實大家都理解。"],["李委員坤城：好，來請部長看幾個數字，根據111年中央給地方統籌分配款的數額，大概有4,000億左右啦！然後再加上如果按照國民黨黨團的版本，還要再釋出百分之十五的稅收，大概5,000億左右，合起來大概要9,000億的規模，那這樣子對我們的財政有沒有影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們在垂直分配的時候要考慮，當然地方的財政需求要顧慮，但是中央也必須要有一定的財政韌性來因應不時之需，像國際政經情勢的變化。"],["李委員坤城：對，這個我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：氣候變遷、天災等等，所以必須要有這樣的一個思考……"],["李委員坤城：來，再看下一個數字……"],["莊部長翠雲：對於5,777億要釋出的話，對中央財政的影響到多大？我想主計長在這邊，他應該非常清楚，因為主計是分配相關資源的部分，會衝擊到中央財政的一個程度。"],["李委員坤城：我們再看112年地方政府稅收決算數是快1兆4,000億，補助及協助收入的依存度（占歲出比率）是36.25%，換算金額大概也是5,000億左右啦！如果按照國民黨黨團的版本再增加5,000億，這個增加5,000億等於是說，在112年度我們給地方政府的所有補助了，也等於是說，如果再增加5,000億，中央幾乎沒有能力再給予地方政府的任何協助了嘛！因為我們已經給了他們大概5,000億左右了啦！如果按照國民黨版本，還要多增加5,000億，這樣子我們的中央受得了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：中央統籌分配稅款加上一般性的補助款，在113年的規模來說，已經達到六千三百多億了，如果再……"],["李委員坤城：好，如果按照112年補助的比例來看，我們占他們歲出的比例已經快接近4成了，等於是中央跟地方稅收的比例已經是6比4差不多了嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，如果加上還有計畫型補助款的話，幾乎就是6比4。"],["李委員坤城：就是6比4了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：中央就是……"],["李委員坤城：我看國民黨現在又要求說，中央跟地方的稅收比例要6比4，我看到112年度的決算，大概已經是6比4的比例了啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們算過這個跟全國歲入淨額來比的話，我們對地方相關的一些補助等等，其實已經到了非常大的比例。"],["李委員坤城：大概有6比4這個比例了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，地方的收入占全國歲入淨額的話，達到6比4了。"],["李委員坤城：好，我們民進黨執政以來，中央統籌分配款占地方歲入的比例，從105年的23.54%到112年的27.68%；中央一般補助占地方歲入的比例，從105年的28.01%上升到112年的36.25%。就是說，民進黨執政以來，不論是中央的統籌分配款，還有一般性的補助比例都是增加的嘛，對不對？雖然比例是增加的，但是造成地方自籌財源占歲入比例從48.41%降到了37.48%，就是我們中央給的是越來越多，但是地方的自籌財源是越來越少。那麼我剛剛有個數字──縣市政府的補助依存度平均是36.25%，可是按照我們在91年11月有通過一個「地方稅法通則」，地方政府可以自訂自治條例徵收特別稅，然實施22年以來只有10個縣市徵收，總稅收合計只有169億。我所要講的意思就是說，地方政府仰賴中央給予統籌分配款也好、一般性補助款也好，是不是也造成了地方極度地仰賴中央？地方有這個權力也可以去收地方的稅收啊！但是通過了「地方稅法通則」之後，22年來10個縣市只收了169億，這也是造成另外一個地方依賴中央的情況啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，確實我們各地方政府、各縣市的人口面積，還有自然條件跟工商發展條件的不同，當然它的稅源會有不同，但是因為財劃法有一個調劑盈虛很重要的目的，然後均衡區域的發展，那為什麼地方相關歲入占它總歲入的比例越來越低？因為事實上就是等於我們的中央統籌分配稅款跟補助款都加入那個分母，也就是說給它的多，相對地它那個分子如果沒有增長的話，分母成長多，以至於比例會下降。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！分子沒有增加。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，所以我們未來在分配公式上，也要有財政努力這一個指標，因為大家都要一起努力嘛，對不對？地方也要努力、中央也要努力。"],["李委員坤城：就是不能你一方面希望中央能夠多給一點，但是地方政府也不努力。"],["莊部長翠雲：也不能不努力，那麼財政的努力應該給予激勵，所以這個部分未來我們在分配公式上，我們也希望能夠有這樣的一個指標進來。"],["李委員坤城：好，那麼看這個水平分配的原則來講，我這邊有新北市政府建議中央統籌分配款的一個分配公式指標，當然財政努力有啦！包含人口數、區域面積、公共運輸、圖書館、國民運動中心，這個是新北市他們希望的一個分配公式指標嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["李委員坤城：我看啊，光是這個指標就跟其他縣市可能要的指標又不太一樣了，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，這就是差距的所在，對。"],["李委員坤城：這個就是說，我是新北市我當然站在新北市的立場，我也希望新北市多一點嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員坤城：我剛才看到李彥秀委員說臺北市這個首都條款一定要保留、一定要給。我就覺得為什麼一定要給臺北市3%保留的款項？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！就吵架了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，就是不一致，大家都為自己的……"],["李委員坤城：為什麼臺北市要3%？我新北市要5%，因為我們的人口最多，地方最大，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然委員為自己的選區爭取……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我的意思是，如果每個都像這樣子吵的話，這個共識怎麼達成？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個就是歧異所在。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是，今天看到新北市很明顯，因為新北市是六都之一，光是新北市搞不好又跟臺南、高雄不太一樣，更不用說新北市跟旁邊的基隆市也會有很大的差距。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯。"],["李委員坤城：總的來說，我們都贊成財劃法要修，現在財劃法要修，第一個，統籌分配款如果按照現在國民黨的版本，它要多收5,000億，等於占了目前中央給地方的統籌分配款。不然這樣子好了，以後只有統籌分配款，都不要有一般性補助款。"],["莊部長翠雲：如果你把中央統籌分配稅款這樣子做，事權沒有調整……因為錢跟事權一定是相對應的，事權要不要同樣調整？這個也是要考慮的事情。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是……"],["莊部長翠雲：中央沒有財政韌性，將來面臨緊急需要的時候要怎麼因應？"],["李委員坤城：修財劃法沒有這麼簡單，如果這麼簡單的話，上一屆就修過了，輪不到國民黨現在以地方包圍中央來修。禮拜三各個縣市政府……我也不知道，可能財政相關單位會過來，每個地方政府的意見至少要先溝通，中央當然是……地方上的意見、直轄市的意見、非直轄市的意見，一定會有歧異，我們能做的就是儘量將歧異縮小，就是水平分配的原則這一方面。當然另外一個是垂直分配，就是統籌分配款的餅可以有多大？你們自己也要考慮一下，因為這也影響到未來臺灣中央財政的韌性。你不曉得會遇到什麼樣的情況，中央還是要保有財政的自主性，才能因應一些意外的情況發生。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說的是。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請郭國文召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.39721875,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.952843750000003,"end":19.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.16284375,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.149093750000002,"end":27.300968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.16284375,"end":48.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.094718750000006,"end":51.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.26346875,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.156593750000006,"end":66.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.07096875,"end":68.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.76284375,"end":69.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.69096875000001,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.49221875,"end":80.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.14909375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.54409375,"end":103.20471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.93471875,"end":105.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.68534375,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.34721875000001,"end":110.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.76471875,"end":134.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.33034375,"end":167.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.10159375,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.29034375,"end":150.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.74534375000002,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.82909375,"end":158.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.22471875000002,"end":164.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.00909375,"end":179.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.27721875,"end":181.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.97721875000002,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.44534375,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.97096875000003,"end":209.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.22596875000002,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.38159375,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.95409375000003,"end":223.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.98784375000002,"end":222.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.76409375,"end":222.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.03409375,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.12034375000002,"end":242.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.60909375000003,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.43596875000003,"end":244.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.48659375000003,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.19096875000002,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.59471875000003,"end":264.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.10784375000003,"end":266.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.63909375000003,"end":273.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.22034375000004,"end":273.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.70971875000004,"end":284.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.15096875,"end":293.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.70659375,"end":302.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.08909375,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.36721875,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.79221875,"end":313.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.31534375,"end":319.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.30159375,"end":325.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.22471875,"end":327.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.31721875,"end":336.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.99096875000004,"end":345.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.96846875,"end":352.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.60034375000004,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.36784375,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.10534375000003,"end":368.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.67784375,"end":371.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.38221875000005,"end":373.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.69409375000004,"end":375.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.84534375000004,"end":395.17596875000004},{"spea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},{"start":136.343,"end":137.003,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案案。"},{"start":151.673,"end":152.553,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．�"},{"start":179.443,"end":181.444,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政"},{"start":204.136,"end":211.554,"text":"我們已經給了他們大概5000億左右啦那如果按照國民黨版本還要多增加5000億這樣子我們的中央受得了嗎?"},{"start":213.544,"end":225.287,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第12屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第12屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第12屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第12屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法修正草案：立法院第12會期財政收支劃"},{"start":242.932,"end":265.824,"text":"6比4,就是6比4了嗎?我看國民黨現在又要求說中央跟地方的稅收比例要6比4,我看到112年度的這個決算大概已經是6比4的這個比例了啊。對,我們算過這個跟全國的淨稅率的一個金額來比的話,我們對地方的相關的一些補助等等其實已經到了非常大的比例了。大概有6比4這個比例了嗎?"},{"start":266.89,"end":281.227,"text":"對,地方的收入,地方的收入占全國稅率的淨額的話,達到6比4了。好,那這個我們民進黨執政以來齁,中央統籌分配款占地方的稅率的比例呢,從105年的23.54到112年的27.68。"},{"start":285.411,"end":301.918,"text":"中央一般補助政地方稅率的比例從105年的28.01然後上升到112年的36.25其實說民進黨執政以來我們的這個稅不論是中央的統籌分配款還有一般性的補助比例都是增加的對不對"},{"start":303.118,"end":322.885,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法"},{"start":326.286,"end":328.708,"text":"財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":346.321,"end":374.728,"text":"這個地方政府仰賴中央給予這個統籌分配款也好或一般性補助款也好那是不是也造成了這個地方極度的仰賴中央地方他有這個權利他也可以去收這個地方的稅收啊但是這通過了這個地方稅法通責之後22年來10個縣市只收了169億這也是造成了另外一個地方造成這個依賴這個中央的一個情況啊"},{"start":378.079,"end":396.663,"text":"報告確實我們各地方政府各縣市他的人口面積還有自然條件跟公山發展條件的不同當然他的稅源會有不同但是因為所以財化法有一個條件營需很重要的一個目的然後均衡區域的發展那為什麼地方的相關的稅率佔的他的稅"},{"start":399.644,"end":426.874,"text":"總稅率的比例越來越低,因為事實上就是等於我們的中央統籌分配稅款跟補助款都加入那個分母,也就是說給他的多,所以他相對的他那個分子如果沒有成長的話,分母成長多,以至於比例會下降。對,分子沒有增加。對,所以我們未來在分配公式上也要有財政努力這一個指標,因為大家都要一起努力嘛,對不對,財政地方也要努力,中央也要努力。對,就是不能你一方面就是說希望中央能夠多給一點,"},{"start":427.654,"end":450.975,"text":"收支劃分法 但地方政府也不努力。那財政的努力應該給予激勵,所以這個部分未來我們在分配公式上我們也希望能夠有這樣的一個指標進來。好,那看這個水平的分配的原則來講,我這邊有這個新北市政府建議中央統籌分配款的一個分配公式的指標。當然財政努力有啦。"},{"start":451.696,"end":461.763,"text":"收支劃分法 包括人口數、區域面積、公共運輸、圖書館、國民運動中心。這個是新北市他們希望的分配公式指標。對不對?"},{"start":464.318,"end":470.202,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法、委員羅明才等23人、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具"},{"start":486.272,"end":505.132,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案 必須保留﹑必須提供﹑那我就覺得說那為什麼一定要給台北市3%的這個保留的這一個款項勒?對啊就吵架了嘛對就是不一致吧大家都為自己的那為什麼台北市要3%我新北市有5%我人口最多我地方最大可不可以?"},{"start":506.852,"end":518.797,"text":"財政收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12屆第1會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第12會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第13會期財政收支劃"},{"start":531.963,"end":534.644,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案案"},{"start":556.721,"end":585.382,"text":"當然他會如果你把中央統籌分配稅款這樣子的做而事權沒有做調整因為錢跟事權是一定是相對應的那事權要不要同樣做調整這個就是也要考慮的事情那你中央沒有財政韌性那將來面臨緊急的需要的時候要怎麼因應這個修財劃法沒有這麼簡單啦如果這麼簡單的話在上一屆就會修過了啦就也輪不到說國民黨現在這個地方要包圍中央來修啦"},{"start":586.443,"end":609.426,"text":"各個我們禮拜三各個縣市政府那我也不知道可能這個財政相關單位會過來每個地方政府他們的意見至少要先溝通那我們中央當然是說地方上面的意見直轄市的意見、非直轄市的意見一定會有那個歧義那我們當然做就是說盡量把那個歧義把它縮小就是這個水平分配的原則這一方面"},{"start":609.946,"end":612.047,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"}]}},{"id":"153443","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707db1cd7f450ad2ad4b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c5f40f2ff3a0ba36f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"09:34:51 - 09:46:47","影片長度":"00:11:56","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:34:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:46:47+08:00","duration":716,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":207,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（9時34分）我請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝部長，部長辛苦了！剛才聽到幾位委員的質詢，還有包括前幾天的質詢，25年沒有修的財劃法，到今天為止，我想無論是過去的賴清德賴市長、擔任行政院長的賴院長、擔任副總統的賴副總統，過去都曾經提過財劃法要修，他過去曾經說過：希望在今年提出財劃法的版本草案，這個「今年」，部長知道是什麼時候嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：您說什麼？今年是……"],["李委員彥秀：7年前！"],["莊部長翠雲：喔，7年前。"],["李委員彥秀：又7年過去了喔！所以這個希望一直變失望，讓各縣市政府失望了，外界就會覺得行政院的版本，包括財政部，其實都一直是虛應故事。今天幾位委員的質詢，我聽到的感覺就是中央想要集權又要集錢，剛才又說地方沒有共識，所以沒辦法修，但過去我也曾經聽過部長說修法沒有時間表，我覺得你們在玩兩套策略耶！只要擔任地方的縣市首長，無論是過去的賴市長，或是今天所有各縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政，都認為財劃法是應該要修的。你曾說過修法沒有時間表，特別剛才又講到沒有共識，我剛剛也聽到其他委員提問你的共識指的是什麼？我們當然希望共識可以極大化，少數一兩個或許有不同意見，但是在立法院也好，在行政院也好，哪一個推出的版本，幾乎很少說是有百分之百的共識，有98%、97%已經是不錯了，要推到有共識要等到什麼時候？","我必須要講，今天的財劃法、25年沒有修的財劃法，是一個不公不義又不仁的版本！我為什麼這麼說？部長，你應該知道，總稅收的87%是國稅，這個國稅包含綜所稅、營業稅、關稅、證交稅，這些都是大稅，這些大稅過去幾年成長到104%，以證交稅來說，這幾年玩股票的人很多啊，有漲幅的空間，地方收到什麼？地方收到的是地價稅、土地增值稅、房屋稅，這些占總稅收的13%而已，這些稅的漲幅有限，所以各縣市每年都嗷嗷待哺，眼巴巴的看著行政院怎麼分。我為什麼說這是一個不公不義又不仁的版本？因為中央把肉多的都拿掉了，剩下的地方稅留給地方政府，只有13%，而且這13%是房屋稅、土地增值稅等，漲幅真的非常少，但是我們地方要負責的是什麼？包括人事費的調漲，第一年可能中央出，中央還不一定百分之百出，我們的交通建設、我們的社會安全網要地方來支付，我們的淨零減碳或者是警政治安，還有地方自治的委辦事項等這些項目，部長，這幾年委辦事項的項目越來越多，所以我剛才提到現在的財劃法是一個不公不義又不仁的版本，已經到了一個非修不可的地步！有人說這個是藍白合來包圍中央，哪來的藍白合來包圍中央？過去民進黨縣市首長，我不知道今天的黃偉哲等幾位縣市首長是不是也認為財劃法不要修了，我希望不要換了一個位置就換了一個腦袋，因為過去的賴市長也認為應該要修。","我們來看一張圖，這張是111年中央挹注地方財源情形表，我們就以這張圖來看，現在中央挹注地方的財源分兩大塊，一塊是統籌分配稅款，一塊是補助收入，又分為一般補助跟專案收入，以臺北市為例，大家都說臺北市統籌分配稅款最多，有495億，再加上補助收入179億，合加起來在111年臺北市總共收到674億；我們再來看高雄市的情形，高雄的統籌分配稅款在民國111年是425億，但是高雄的補助收入卻達到437億，合計下來，中央給它的錢達到862億，所以它的排序是第一。我剛為什麼說地方嗷嗷待哺、要看中央的臉色？以補助收入來說，它高興給誰就給誰，所以我們才更認為財劃法要儘速的做制度化的處理，否則對於地方建設的穩定性，地方政府不知道明年可以給多少，因為地方的自籌能力有限，我們當然希望地方政府可以有自籌的能力，但不是每一個縣市都是如此，如果沒有一個穩健的、長期的中央挹注地方財源收入的話，它就不敢大刀闊斧地去做長遠的地方建設的規劃。我想部長非常清楚我在講什麼，所以我必須還是要提，部長，時間表到底有沒有？如果沒有共識，你還是不打算修嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，沒有共識的話，立法怎麼會通過，就如過去五度的提出修法版本，但是為什麼沒有完成修法程序，就是因為沒有共識，所以我們對於這個部分現在就是一直在做這方面的努力，希望把歧異縮小，讓共識最大。"],["李委員彥秀：努力7年了！不管你是在位幾年，不管你是在這個位子上幾年，努力幾年了！"],["莊部長翠雲：像委員您也對臺北市非常的關心，所以把這個部分提出來，因為各地方政府都會對他自己所獲得的財源來做努力跟爭取，這個部分我們都完全理解，但是我們的分配公式就是要入法……"],["李委員彥秀：我希望後天的公聽會，如果達到最大的共識、大多數的共識，我覺得就應該要提修法，因為我相信我剛剛有提出原因了，到現在25年沒修的財劃法就是一個不公不仁又不義的版本。","第二，我要再提的是首都保留的部分，我還是要幫臺北市提一下。臺北市為首善之都，不論是在城市的競爭力，還有各項經費的支持，還有臺北市各項營建物料、物價等等，其實都高於其他的縣市，所以我強烈要求在統籌分配的部分要加上首都保留，這個部分過去有，我強調在這一次也必須要加進來。","部長，我要問另外一個問題，前幾天我看到新聞，因為你是一個女性的部長，有關於5月16號關務署的針孔偷拍事件，你們後面到底打算怎麼處理？就交給警察來處理嗎？由警察單位來調查嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，當然我們有交給檢察署來做處理，檢察署……"],["李委員彥秀：你們自己的角色是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們自己的角色，第一個，我們對於這個加害人做處置，調離原來的單位，讓他到另外一個工作單位，為什麼？因為要避免造成周遭女性同仁的一些恐懼，這個我們完全理解，所以我們就調職……"],["李委員彥秀：當然要調，部長，你是女性部長，在一年前，去年7月份完成性平三法的通過，要建立專業的、可信賴的性平防治制度是重要的，海關當然要全力配合釐清調查，但是你絕對不是只有協助的角色。我關注到，在你們同仁的心聲論壇裡面有人發文提到：有人關心被害人的感受嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然會。"],["李委員彥秀：你們曾經還勸人家說要不要和解算了，有沒有這件事情？"],["莊部長翠雲：我認為應該不會，為什麼？因為現在性騷的處理不可以……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你不要說你認為沒有，我就得到內部的資訊，就是問她要不要和解，部長，你身為女性部長，心態上不要這樣子，好不好？性平三法去年通過……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，我跟委員報告，沒有要求她要和解。"],["李委員彥秀：你們當時第一時間，剛開始要調他……"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，我們已經送檢察署……"],["李委員彥秀：性平法第十三條第二項第二款、第二項第一款及第四項有規定應該通知地方主管機關，而且要做適當的懲戒，我請問你，懲戒的結果出來了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：出來了。"],["李委員彥秀：什麼時候出來的？"],["莊部長翠雲：上個禮拜，我們經過……"],["李委員彥秀：那是因為媒體揭露之後你們才出來的。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們記大過……"],["李委員彥秀：好了，你不用回答我，那是因為媒體揭露之後才出來的。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，我覺得這是我們正常程序都有在做啦。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我們來看下一張……"],["莊部長翠雲：然後性騷委員會也有在做處理。"],["李委員彥秀：原來要把他調動單位，部長，你說懲戒出來，上個禮拜懲戒出來，請看螢幕上這一張，他原來的單位是業務一科，結果調任的單位還是在業務一科，還是在一個辦公室裡，後來是因為媒體揭露了之後，你才把他從原來的竹圍分關調到新單位的什麼業務一組，我覺得部長不要在這邊唬弄我。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有唬弄委員，我們絕對不敢唬弄委員，我們講的是事實。"],["李委員彥秀：這件事情如果沒有媒體的揭露，部長，你是女性部長耶！性平三法去年才通過啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當天就已經移送地檢署了……"],["李委員彥秀：移送地檢署？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為地檢署……"],["李委員彥秀：你還是有一定的角色喔！性平三法主管機關內部要懲處……"],["莊部長翠雲：有的，懲處了……"],["李委員彥秀：要調、移動單位……"],["莊部長翠雲：移動單位。"],["李委員彥秀：而且性騷法你要通知，這個事情發生在哪裡？"],["莊部長翠雲：有的，我們也馬上處理，由性平委員會處理。"],["李委員彥秀：臺北市嗎？臺北市就要通知臺北市政府啊，勞工局要介入啊！不是只有移送給警察局你就完全沒事情耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們機關內部行政懲處，還有性平審議委員會已經都開始啟動了。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你身為女性部長，這件事情的處理讓大家對你是非常失望，所以我才會在你們同仁裡面內部網站上的心聲論壇，看到你身為女性處理這件事情，大家對於你是不滿的啦！署長，你應該知道我在說什麼，部長可能沒有辦法掌握所有的狀況，但是署長應該知道我在說什麼，這個事情如果不處理好，我覺得在性平法上面整個民進黨政府是退步的。部長，我覺得這樣對你也不好，我是提醒你，你是女性部長，在這個事情你要比別人處理得更到位、更周延，才不會讓所有的人失望，以上。謝謝！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員！我們已經盡全力處置。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.44409375,"end":3.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.464718750000001,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":26.507843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":14.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.85784375,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.22034375,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.56596875,"end":42.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.04534375,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.32346875,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.53784375,"end":53.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.415343750000005,"end":52.680968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.440343750000004,"end":83.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.76034375,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.98346875,"end":93.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.26534375,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.86596875000001,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.75596875000001,"end":115.42221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.65846875000001,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.14659375000001,"end":124.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.58096875000001,"end":127.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.87596875000001,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.80784375000002,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.20409375,"end":141.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.64596875,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.31221875,"end":146.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.48909375,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.21846875,"end":154.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.89284375,"end":156.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.10346875000002,"end":163.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.95471875,"end":166.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.05534375000002,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.06346875,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.80534375000002,"end":177.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.12971875000002,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.78346875,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.09534375,"end":182.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.97284375,"end":185.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.41534375,"end":188.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.12784375,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.22471875000002,"end":194.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.12284375000002,"end":197.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.37971875000002,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.37096875,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.23034375,"end":211.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.04846875,"end":231.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.12971875000002,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.96034375000002,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.41534375,"end":241.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.32221875000002,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.31721875000002,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.04659375000003,"end":258.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.04096875,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.44909375000003,"end":277.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.69221875,"end":278.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.86909375,"end":282.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.73784375,"end":290.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.65221875000003,"end":306.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.73409375,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.02846875,"end":320.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.90909375,"end":330.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.66284375000004,"end":331.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.48971875,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.54846875000004,"end":334.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.38784375,"end":339.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":50.077,"end":52.239,"text":"收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分法、財政收支劃分"},{"start":65.613,"end":83.141,"text":"從今天這幾位委員質詢起來我聽到的感覺就是中央想要集權又要集錢剛才用說地方沒有共識所以沒辦法修過去我也曾聽到這個部長曾經提說修法沒有時間表我覺得你們在玩兩套策略"},{"start":88.075,"end":110.05,"text":"只要擔任地方的縣市首長,無論是過去的賴市長,包括今天所有各縣不管是哪一個縣市執政,都認為財法法是應該要修的。你講到說修法沒有時間表,特別剛才講到說沒有共識,我剛才也聽到其他委員提到說,你的共識指的是什麼?"},{"start":110.973,"end":130.243,"text":"我們當然希望共識可以極小化、極大化少數一兩個或許有不同意見但是在立法院也好在行政院也好哪一個推出的版本幾乎很少說是百分之百百分之九十八、百分之九十七已經是不錯了"},{"start":131.857,"end":145.389,"text":"要推到有共識要等到什麼時候我必須要講今天的財劃法25年沒有修的財劃法是一個不公不義又不仁的版本我為什麼這麼說部長你應該知道87%是國稅這個國稅包含鎮所稅、營業稅、關稅、鎮交稅"},{"start":155.078,"end":180.916,"text":"這些都是大稅這些大稅過去幾年成長到百分之一百零四增加稅這幾年玩股票的人很多啊有漲幅的空間地方收到什麼地方收到地價稅、土地增值稅、房屋稅這些佔了總稅的百分之十三而已這些稅漲幅有限"},{"start":182.17,"end":207.409,"text":"所以各縣市每年都嗷嗷待哺眼睛眼巴巴的看著行政院怎麼分我為什麼說這是一個不公不義又不仁的版本因為中央把肉多的都拿掉了剩下的地方稅留給地方政府它只有13%而且這13%房屋稅、地土地增值稅漲幅真的非常少"},{"start":209.244,"end":234.37,"text":"但是我們地方要負責的是什麼?包括人事費的調漲第一年可能中央出第二年中央還不一定百分之百出我們的交通建設我們的社會安全網要地方來支付我們的淨零減碳或者是警政治安還有委辦事項地方知識委辦事項這些項目這幾年不漲"},{"start":236.004,"end":258.223,"text":"委辦事項的項目越來越多。」所以我剛才提到這是一個不公不義又不仁的版本現在的財劃法它是到了一個非說不得的地步有人說這個是藍白何來包圍中央哪來的藍白何來包圍中央過去民進黨"},{"start":260.303,"end":276.616,"text":"縣市首長﹖我不知道今天的黃偉哲幾位縣市首長是不是也認為採訪法不要修了我希望不要換了一個位置換了一個腦袋因為過去的賴市長也認為應該要修好我們來看一張圖中央挹注地方財源的狀況我們來看下一張"},{"start":279.929,"end":304.809,"text":"有一個圖是111年我以這張圖來看我們現在中央益助財源有分兩大塊一塊是統籌分配稅一塊是補助的收入分為一般補助跟專案的收入以台北市為例大家都說台北市統籌分配稅款最多495億那又加上一個補助的收入179億"},{"start":306.823,"end":310.313,"text":"合加起來在111年台北市總共收到674億"},{"start":313.106,"end":338.832,"text":"那我們以台中、高雄來看好了,台中的統籌分配稅管在民國111年是425億,但是它的高雄的補助收入卻達到437億,所以它的總合計中央給它的錢達到862億,所以它的排序是第一。我剛剛為什麼說地方嗷嗷呆不要看中央臉色,以補助收入來說,"},{"start":340.472,"end":342.794,"text":"收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、"},{"start":365.097,"end":383.24,"text":"但是如果不是一個穩健的地方財源收入長期的中央藝術地方財源收入的話他就不敢大刀闊斧的去做長遠的地方建設的規劃我想部長你非常清楚我在講什麼所以我必須還是要提部長時間表到底有沒有如果沒有共識你還是不打算修嗎"},{"start":393.049,"end":407.623,"text":"委員沒有共識的話立法怎麼會通過就如過去五度的提出修法版本但是為什麼沒有完成立法的修法的程序就是因為沒有共識所以我們這個部分現在就是一直在做這個努力希望把"},{"start":408.483,"end":425.374,"text":"努力7年了,不管你是在位幾年,不管你是在這個位置上幾年,努力幾年了。您也對台北市非常的關心這個部分提出來,因為各地方政府或者也好都會對他自己所獲得的財源來做努力跟爭取,這個部分我們都完全理解。"},{"start":425.794,"end":428.355,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查．一、繼續審查�"},{"start":448.783,"end":450.325,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查〈一、繼續審查〉"},{"start":472.907,"end":481.772,"text":"有關於在5月16號的這個關務署的偷拍的事件,針孔偷拍的事件,你們後面到底打算怎麼處理?"},{"start":483.015,"end":483.676,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：一、繼續審查"},{"start":504.531,"end":505.572,"text":"收支劃分法：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查：一、繼續審查："},{"start":533.665,"end":534.266,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第12會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":561.6,"end":568.065,"text":"都應該通知地方主管機關而且要懲戒。」我請問你懲戒的結果出來了嗎?出來了。什麼時候出來的?上個禮拜我們經過...那是因為媒體揭露之後你們才出來,好,你不用回答我。那是因為媒體揭露之後才出來,好,我們來看下一張,你原來要把它調到了大位,部長。"},{"start":582.967,"end":603.841,"text":"我們來看下一張,那是上個禮拜審界出來,來給我下一張你們原來要給他調的單位是業務一科最後調任的單位還是在業務一科還是在一個辦公室裡後來是因為媒體揭露了之後你才把他從原來的逐微分官調到這個新單位的什麼業務一組"},{"start":606.124,"end":608.665,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":622.791,"end":647.763,"text":"移送地檢署,你還是有一定的角色喔!新平三法主管機關,你內部要懲處,要調移動單位,而且新規法你要通知這個事情發生在哪裡?臺北市就要通知臺北市政府啊!勞工局要介入啊!不是只有移送給警察局,你就完全沒事情欸!我們機關內部行政懲處委還有新平審議委員會已經都開始啟動啦!"},{"start":649.52,"end":675.29,"text":"部長這件事情噢造成同仁對你你身為女性部長你處理的大家是非常失望所以我才會在你們同仁裡面內部一個網站上的論壇關注到新生論壇看到大家其實對於這件事情你處理身為女性吧大家是不滿的啦署長你應該知道我在說什麼啦部長可能沒有辦法掌握所有的狀況但是署長你應該知道我在說什麼我覺得"},{"start":677.691,"end":678.772,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案、委員羅明才等23人分別擬具"},{"start":706.072,"end":708.485,"text":"接著請李昆城、李委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"153442","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153442","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c707b8b4630737897bce59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0c5bdf3d81c64cf4bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:33:18 - 09:43:06","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:33:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:43:06+08:00","duration":588,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時33分）謝謝主席，我們先請數位部黃部長、NCC陳主委跟個人資料保護委員會的鄭副主任，還有中華電信郭董事長。"],["主席：請黃部長、陳主委、鄭副主任、郭董事長。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝各位。「Big brother is watching you」這是1949年出版的知名小說《1984》的經典名言─老大哥在看著你─沒想到2024年，當年的小說可能因為這次的事件變成預言。上週在政論節目裡面，民進黨的政策會執行長王義川曾經講過，他們去比對青鳥活動在立法院外頭的群眾不同於517民進黨樓下的群眾，他的說法是依據所謂的電信信令人口統計資料。我想內政部110年的電信信令資料，當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等，都有去統計，但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字。我想問一下陳主委，以上的敘述對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有錯，大數據分析要去識別化。"],["黃委員健豪：換句話說，理論上來講，不同的場合、不同的人群，理論上是沒辦法做比對的，是嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：大數據資料基本上來講，如果你要做兩個場合的比對的話，有一些大數據分析，比如就性別或是年紀，有些輪廓性的資料來講的話，還是有可能的，比如說這個是學生的活動，還是比如說一般成人的活動，所以在年紀上或性別上還是有一些區別的。"],["黃委員健豪：所以主委是說有可能去做比對？那沒關係，如果有可能做比對的話，我再確認一件事情，誰可以去申請電信信令資料？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：電信信令資料，基本上來講，是在電信公司這邊，原則上如果它已經去識別化了，這個資料在使用當中就變成所謂的數據。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委。那我問一下郭董事長。"],["郭董事長水義：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：郭董事長，從今年總統大選的造勢晚會，然後到今年的519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行，有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請手機的電信信令資料？"],["郭董事長水義：沒有，報告委員，沒有……"],["黃委員健豪：都沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["黃委員健豪：那誰可以申請電信信令資料？剛剛主委沒有回答我，我想問一下在實務面上，誰可以跟中華電信申請這樣的手機電信信令資料？"],["郭董事長水義：我們的電信信令資料是不會外流的，剛才有報告，至於剛才提到的，任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行等相關的活動，我們沒有進行這樣的分析。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長，你說電信信令資料是不能外流的，但是地方政府就有掌握到，他們就是能夠利用電信信令資料來做比對。"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，那是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析運用。"],["黃委員健豪：所以他是另外再跟你買這個資料，是嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：這個就是人潮分析平台上面所闡釋的大數據的分析資料，跟……"],["黃委員健豪：這是公開資訊，還是要另外加價購買？"],["郭董事長水義：這個需要購買的。"],["黃委員健豪：那我重新再問一次問題，今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行，有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料？"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，沒有。"],["黃委員健豪：都沒有？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["黃委員健豪：所以誰可以買？任何人都可以買嗎？"],["郭董事長水義：任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料。"],["黃委員健豪：那大數據資料呢？"],["郭董事長水義：如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的，觀光運用或紓解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料，我們會應主管單位，例如地方縣市政府的需求，然後最重要的是在合法、合規的前提下，而且重要的是要去識別化，然後來進行相關的資料……"],["黃委員健豪：好，郭董事長，謝謝。所以，郭董事長的意思是說，你剛剛提到電信信令資料是不能購買的，也不能外流的，對吧？"],["郭董事長水義：是。"],["黃委員健豪：但是你們處理後的大數據資料，當主管機關針對所謂的觀光或是交通問題，他們可以來購買去做分析、比對？"],["郭董事長水義：對，就是去識別化之後，在分析之前先去識別化。"],["黃委員健豪：好，郭董，謝謝，沒事了。換句話說，政策會執行長王義川在電視上講的這一段，看起來理論上來講，不是從你們這邊購買的，對吧？"],["郭董事長水義：不是。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來下一段，我想問一下數位部黃部長。部長，你在今天的報告裡面提到說，除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料，才能夠進行交叉比對，否則無法連上特定區域、某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，它的資料散布在不同的系統，所以那個號碼，就是說Radio Access Network跟我們的編列系統是分開的，那個要去比對才有辦法。"],["黃委員健豪：所以技術上可行，但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜？"],["黃部長彥男：尤其是當你講到幾萬人的時候，那是相當複雜的。"],["黃委員健豪：那如果王義川講說他取得的話，你覺得這句話有沒有可行性？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我不清楚，我不能判斷，因為我沒有這個資料。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係。最後，因為時間不夠，我來問一下個人資料保護委員會籌備處，你在今天的報告裡面提到一件事情，第2頁後面的部分提到，我們都很在意個人資料的保護，但是在合約裡面有提到說，經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料，可以提供第三人使用，這是你們給我們看的合約內容，「經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別」這句話，我想請問一下，誰來確認經甲方處理並確認？"],["鄭副主任其昀：黃委員好，跟委員報告，因為現在電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會，包含電信事業在個人資料保護的這個個案的監理機關也是通傳會，所以之後也是會由通傳會這邊來確認，以上。"],["黃委員健豪：所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的乙方資料給電信公司，合約上可以這樣做嗎？"],["鄭副主任其昀：如果是通傳會解釋合約，這邊如果可以的話，那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料，那當然就是依照這個合約去處理了。"],["黃委員健豪：我的意思是說我可不可以連去識別化之後的我都不提供？請主委回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，當事人本來就有拒絕的權利，只是說以我們的這個契約來講，如果你簽了這個契約，當然契約裡面會有這個部分，因為這是定型化契約。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊！因為這是定型化契約，這是民生問題，今天發生這個事情，在定型化契約裡面既然已經寫白了這件事情，那我有沒有機會把這一條拿掉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有，但是如果要變更的話，你就要通知，就是原來在這個契約裡面是這樣寫，當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題，他如果覺得他的個人資料有疑慮，他可以向電信公司要求退租。"],["黃委員健豪：好，最後還有一點時間，我不知道主管機關是誰，過去在疫情的時候有所謂電子城牆的問題，當然理論上你們是依法消除了，那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除？這個執行過程在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請我們的同仁來說明，我們第一是先去檢查。"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，我們是配合疫情結束後在112年5月因為降階以後，就是這套監控系統都全部停止，我們都是配合、因應衛福部的要求，我們NCC分別去了5趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除，以上。"],["黃委員健豪：所以在疫情期間蒐集、處理、利用的這些個人資料，還有他們所去過任何地方的相關資料，在現階段都已經消除了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員健豪：在疫情期間大家也曾經看到了，不管是天下雜誌也好，還是以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好，就是臺灣實際上能夠做到透過手機來監控人的流向，我想問一下NCC的陳主委，現階段技術上到底做不做得到這件事情？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不曉得委員問的是個人還是人流？"],["黃委員健豪：個人。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果是個人的話，基本上來講，你要手機當然有啊！因為比如說要救災、要救人，或者是像刑事犯罪可能有通保的問題，從技術上來講是可行的，只是說我們有所謂的法律規定，你如果違反法律的規定，就是違反個資法或者是相關的法律。"],["黃委員健豪：所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當授權……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要有法律的依據，要依法定程序才可以。"],["黃委員健豪：所以如果沒有依法定程序取得了這些個人的資料，他就是違法，對吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得，那就可能會侵害到個人的資料。"],["黃委員健豪：好，主委謝謝，部長謝謝，大家謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃健豪委員。下一位請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Brother is watching you這個是1949年一個知名的小說老大哥在看著你啊讓我想沒想到2024年可能的這個事件當年的小說變成預言"},{"start":47.164,"end":60.798,"text":"這個上週政論節目裡面這個王一川曾經講過說政策民進黨政策執行長王一川講他們去比對了這個相關的517跟民進黨樓下的訊號比起來不同人那他的說法是依據所謂的電信心理人口統計的資料"},{"start":62.139,"end":88.089,"text":"我想內政部110年的電信資料當然各地方政府為了發展觀光、交通等等的都有去統計但是這些資料理論上都是去識別化的統計數字我想問一下我們陳主委以上的敘述對不對沒有錯 這個是大數據分析要去識別化換句話說 理論上來講不同的場合、不同的人群理論上是沒辦法做比對的 是嗎"},{"start":90.503,"end":115.438,"text":"這個資料基本上來講比如說如果你說做兩個場合來講的話如果大數據分析有一些比如說性別或年紀有些東西輪廓性的資料來講的話還是有可能的比如說這個是學生的活動還是比如說一般成年的活動還是有一些年紀上或性別上還是有區別的好所以主委說有可能去做比對那沒關係如果有可能做比對的話我再確認一件事情誰可以去申請電信心靈資料"},{"start":118.797,"end":119.418,"text":"謝謝主委 那我問一下郭董事長"},{"start":133.732,"end":152.931,"text":"黃董事長從這個今年總統大選的造勢晚會然後到今年519、521、524、528這幾場大型的集會遊行有沒有任何單位來跟中華電信申請了手機的這個電信信用資料沒有都沒有那誰可以申請電信資料剛剛主委說"},{"start":156.815,"end":181.72,"text":"主委有沒有回答?我想問一下這個實務面的話誰可以來跟中華電信申請這樣的手續信令資料?我們電信信令資料是不會外流的,剛才有報告那剛才提到的任何跟政黨相關的集會遊行相關的活動我們沒有這樣的一個分析主委,對不起,董事長你說電信信令資料是不能外流的,但是"},{"start":182.81,"end":201.646,"text":"地方政府他們就有掌握到他們就是能夠利用電信資料來做對比啊?報告委員那個是所謂的人潮分析的大數據的分析應用所以它是另外在另外給你買這個東西嗎?是嗎?就是人潮分析平台上面所產製的大數據的這個分析資料"},{"start":202.874,"end":222.701,"text":"這是公開資訊還是要另外加價購買?這個需要購買的讓我重新再問一次問題今年的總統大選造勢晚會跟519、521、524、528這幾場大型集會遊行有沒有任何單位或個人可以跟中華電信來購買這幾場集會遊行的大數據資料?報告委員沒有都沒有"},{"start":223.761,"end":253.141,"text":"所以誰可以買?任何人都可以買嗎?任何人都不能購買這個部分的資料大數據資料呢?如果是屬於剛才委員所提到的關關應用或疏解交通等等這些人潮分析的資料呢我們會應這個主管單位的一些例如地方的這個縣市政府的需求然後在最重要的是在合法合規的一個前提下而且重要是要去識別化"},{"start":254.042,"end":256.944,"text":"主管機關針對了所謂的這個觀光或者是交通問題他們可以來購買去做分析比對"},{"start":274.802,"end":290.969,"text":"對,就去識別化之後在分析之前先去識別化好,郭董謝謝那換句話說齁這郭董沒事齁換句話說齁這個這個政策會執行長王岳川在電視上講的這段看起來理論上呢不是從你們這邊來購買的啦對吧不是"},{"start":297.19,"end":318.106,"text":"這我沒有講好那接下來下一段我想問一下我們這個我們數位部我們黃部長部長你在今天的報告裡面提到說除非同時取得基地台服務號碼跟帳戶客戶資料才能夠進行交叉比對否則無法連上特定區域某個基地台的手機使用者的年齡分布是嗎"},{"start":318.626,"end":326.291,"text":"所以技術上可行但是這個資料比對起來非常的複雜尤其是當你講到幾萬人的時候那是相當複雜那如果王一川講說他取得的話你覺得這句話有沒有可行性"},{"start":345.421,"end":353.663,"text":"最後因為時間不夠我來問一下我們這個個人資料保護委員會籌備處你在今天報告裡面提到一件事情第二頁的部分然後後面提到在這個合約裡面我們都很在意我們個人資料保護但是在這個"},{"start":369.005,"end":377.641,"text":"合約裡面有提到說經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別乙方本人的資料可以提供第三人使用嗎?"},{"start":378.989,"end":401.349,"text":"這個是你們給我們看到的這個合約的內容經甲方處理並確認第三人無從識別的這句話我想請問一下誰來確認經甲方處理並確認黃委員好跟委員報告那因為現在電信事業電信管理法的主管機關還是通傳會包括電信事業在那個個人資料保護的這個個案的監視機關也是通傳會所以之後也是會有通傳會這邊來確認以上"},{"start":403.365,"end":425.249,"text":"所以消費者有沒有機會選擇我不要提供這個金甲方族與冰圈第三人物種識別的乙方資料給電信公司合約上可以這樣做嗎這邊的話如果是通傳會這邊解釋合約這邊如果可以的話那當然這個是去識別化以後的資料那當然就是依照這個合約去處理不是我已經說我可不可以我連去識別化之後我都不提供"},{"start":426.824,"end":426.924,"text":"主席"},{"start":447.978,"end":461.267,"text":"有,當然你如果要變更的話你就要同時就是說我原來來講的話比如說這個契約裡面來講的話當然這個是所謂的個人資料自主權的問題嘛他如果覺得他的個人資料有這個疑慮他可以要求這個電信公司他可以退出的問題"},{"start":462.704,"end":480.841,"text":"最後一個時間了 我不知道這個是誰主管機關過去疫情的時候有統計到有這個所謂電子城牆的問題那當然依法理論上你們是消除了 那我想問一下到底誰能夠確認這個資料的消除在哪裡"},{"start":482.281,"end":499.428,"text":"這個執行過程在哪裡我請我們的同仁來我們先去檢查報告委員那個我們是配合那個疫情結束後12年5月因為降階以後就是這套監控系統都全部停止那我們都是配合那個衛福部的"},{"start":500.328,"end":521.983,"text":"因應衛福部的要求我們還分別了我們NCC分別去了五趟電信業者來確保他們所有在疫情期間的資料都已經完全刪除以上所以疫情期間收集的、處理的、利用的這些個人資料還有他們去過的任何的地方的相關資料在現階段都已經消除了"},{"start":523.885,"end":544.805,"text":"疫情期間也曾經大家也看到了不管是這個天下雜誌還是我們這個以色列總理納坦雅胡講的話也好就是說台灣實際上能夠做到監控這個人流監控手機的這個透過手機來監控人的這個流向這件事情我想問一下我們NCC我們陳主委現階段技術上到底做不做到這件事情"},{"start":546.376,"end":566.854,"text":"委員你問的是個人還是說人流個人個人基本上來講的話你要手機當然有啊因為基本上比如說你要救災要救人或者是說比如說歧視犯罪可能有通報的這個問題技術上來講是有可行的但是說你如果沒有有沒有所謂的法律規定嘛你如果違反法律規定的話就違反各自法或者是相關的法律"},{"start":567.515,"end":586.29,"text":"所以只要有人取得了這樣非透過正當所要有法律的依據還有法律的程序法定程序才可以所以如果沒有通過法律程序取得了這些個人的資料的話他就是違法對吧對如果沒有依照法律規定跟法定程序取得但是會受會可能侵害到個人的資料各自好主委謝謝部長謝謝大家謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153441","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153441","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c70795a9667566a1feb659c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0cba60f46e32a191315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:25:47 - 09:32:41","影片長度":"00:06:54","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:25:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:32:41+08:00","duration":414,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":156,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時25分）謝謝陳雪生召委，請陳耀祥主委還有黃部長。"],["主席：好，請耀祥主委，還有黃部長。"],["李委員昆澤：請郭水義董事長。"],["主席：請郭董。"],["李委員昆澤：我先請教一下陳主委，我個人的立場非常清楚，不管藍綠誰執政，對於國家經濟如果侵犯人民的個資保護，我們是絕對不能接受。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我請教一下陳耀祥主委，針對電信三雄這三大業者對這次青鳥行動有沒有進行相關數據的掌握？來，請說明一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我們5月30號有請三大電信業者到會做行政調查，這個事情我們覺得非常嚴重，如果有涉及違法個人資料使用的話，可能還會涉及刑責問題，所以我們很慎重其事的請三大業者到會調查，並請他們提供相關的資料，而三大業者到會做行政調查時表明他們並沒有提供任何相關資料給特定人士、政黨，或是企業。"],["李委員昆澤：好，也有部分媒體或者是群眾質疑這些相關的強波車，就是我們所知道的行動基地台……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：行動基地台。"],["李委員昆澤：認為這些是在蒐集群眾的相關數據跟資料，是不是有這樣的情形？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告一下，我們所有大型集會活動，不管是政治性的，或是辦跨年晚會、燈會，還是各種活動，因為人群擁擠，它的使用量很大，所以三大電信業者在很多的情況使用行動基地……"],["李委員昆澤：沒有錯，不管是演唱會、燈會或是大型的……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，會提供通訊，因為我們在場的時候……"],["李委員昆澤：民眾會要求提升相關的通訊品質嘛……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，通訊品質。"],["李委員昆澤：所以就會有相關的行動基地車……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：行動通信基地車會支援……"],["李委員昆澤：派到現場來做支援嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["李委員昆澤：好，另外一個問題，我請教一下陳主委，我們在過去……現在有時候民眾會搞混，我們在疫情期間有一個疫情的調查平台……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：疫情的平台分成幾種方式，因為他們要掌握疫情，這也是當初疾管局要求的一個相關行政程序……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：當初我們在這個疫情調查平台其實就有QR Code、電子圍籬以及相關的疫情輔助平台……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["李委員昆澤：還有相關的簡訊系統……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["李委員昆澤：那跟我們的人潮分析平台又是一個不同的平台……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：人潮分析平臺大部分用於交通的紓解，或是觀光人潮、特定城市的人潮調查……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：這樣的調查是去識別化的，跟疫情調查有個資問題是不一樣的……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：疫情的平台在2022年NCC的監督之下都已經下架，而且資料完全銷毀，是不是這樣呢？請清楚的說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：關於疫情平台，因為它是有特定目的使用，所以當時也依照所謂的特別法，還有傳染病防治法等相關法律，包括有電子圍籬、疫調系統，以及所謂的簡訊實聯制，這些相關的資料蒐集，還有後來的刪除，NCC還有衛福部都有就這個部分進行相關的檢查，這些相關的資料都已經刪除了，它是基於防疫目的所以的確會連結到個人資料，但這只限於政府因防疫目的所使用，並沒有提供給第三者去處理。","我們剛才所講的大數據分析是另外一種，關於人流分析的這種大數據分析是個人資料去識別化以後，很多電信業者或是很多資訊服務業者會提供大數據分析，以這些數據分析來講，第一個最重要的前提就是去識別化而且不可回溯。所以剛才有委員提到這部分，比如年紀、性別這些東西來講的話，在大數據分析裡面可以看出來，很多都是所謂輪廓性的資料，所以不是在指特定個人。"],["李委員昆澤：好。疫情相關的調查平台確實都已經下架，而且全部資料都銷毀，是不是？來，清楚的說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，沒錯。這部分來講我們已經下架，而且全部銷毀了。"],["李委員昆澤：好，主委，我更嚴肅的問你，所謂的去識別化是做到什麼程度叫做去識別化？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：去識別化，簡單來講，就是技術上要做到第一個是匿名，第二是不可回溯，不可回溯包括從這個資料沒有辦法回溯到特定的個人，所以不管是直接也好，間接也好，都不可以回溯到個人，這樣的技術方式就是去識別化。"],["李委員昆澤：好。最後的時間我簡短請教一下陳主委，有關於警廣的問題，警廣是駕駛或是民眾收聽的一個非常重要的電台，你知不知道就FM跟AM，警廣基本上都是FM的頻道，但是它在新竹跟臺南卻是AM的頻道。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我們都知道，警廣電台如果是FM的話，它的收音品質比較好，因為FM頻道是立體聲，而目前仍屬於AM頻道的臺南跟新竹的警廣電台，造成民眾在駕駛的時候，不管是行車的安全，資訊的取得或者是相關的收聽的品質，就會變得比較差。我們能不能讓警廣這兩個電台提升為FM，有沒有頻道空間？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這部分我們有跟衛福部討論過，目前來講頻道上還有空間，我們已經依照相關的程序在處理當中。"],["李委員昆澤：我想第一個，先讓警廣臺南跟新竹這兩個電台從AM能夠提升到FM，讓整個收聽的品質能夠穩定，全國都能夠一致，然後接下來其實還有其他的公家的電台還是有問題嘛？包括漁業電台還有教育電台，也是有使用AM頻道的狀況，其實我們應該分等級來處理……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：第一個先處理警廣，因為這部分關係到交通安全、交通的紓解。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：第二個，我們再來處理漁業、教育這些相關的電台，是不是有更多FM的頻道空間，目前是有嘛？來，說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，對，應該那個就韌性司，我想那個應該是有的，應該是有。"],["李委員昆澤：應該是有啦？"],["黃部長彥男：對，對，對。"],["李委員昆澤：我們來進行相關的處理，這是為民眾服務，就相關的交通安全、交通紓解，警廣電台有很大的幫助。"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們再提供更多資料，我們再把資料跟委員報告。"],["李委員昆澤：好。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤召委，謝謝三位。","先作個宣告，本日有委員提出臨時提案，我們預計11點鐘左右處理，好不好？讓各位委員有所準備。","下一位請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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Code、電子圍籬以及相關的疫情的輔助平台還有相關的簡訊系統"},{"start":162.557,"end":187.392,"text":"跟我們的人潮分析平台又是一個不同的平台人潮分析平台大部分都用於交通的疏解或是觀光人潮或是特定的城市的這樣的一個人潮的一個調查這樣的調查他是去識別化的跟疫情的調查有這樣的一個個資的問題是不一樣的那疫情的這個平台"},{"start":188.473,"end":216.719,"text":"在2022年在NCC的監督之下都已經下架而且資料完全的銷毀是不是這樣呢?清楚的說明這關於疫情平台因為它是有特定目的使用所以當時依照這個所謂的特別法還有傳染病防治法等相關包括有電子圍籬、疫調系統還有所謂的檢訊實聯制那這些相關的資料收集還有後來的刪除我們NCC還有衛福部都就這個部分有去進行相關的檢查這些相關的資料都已經刪除了"},{"start":217.679,"end":238.868,"text":"那他這個是因為基於防疫目的所以的確會對比如說會連結到個人資料但是這個是是限於政府使用這個所謂的防疫目的所使用並沒有提供給第三者去處理那這個我們剛才所講這個大數據分析是另外一種剛才所講人流的分析這種大數據分析是說個人資料去識別化以後"},{"start":239.468,"end":265.736,"text":"他很多的電信業者或者很多資訊服務業者他會提供這個大數據分析這些數據分析裡面呢第一個最重要的前提就是去識別化而且不可回溯所以剛才有我也提到這個部分比如說年紀、性別這些東西來講的話這大數據分析裡面可以看得出來他們很多都是一種所謂輪廓性的資料相關疫情的這個調查的平台確實都已經下降而且全部資料都銷毀是不是啦?是是是"},{"start":267.056,"end":290.657,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":290.917,"end":303.85,"text":"最後時間我簡短的請教一下陳主委是有關於景廣的問題景廣是在駕駛或是民眾非常重要的一個收聽的電台其實你知不知道"},{"start":304.906,"end":321.135,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":321.355,"end":347.698,"text":"而且在目前有AM的這樣一個台南跟新竹這個造成民眾在駕駛的時候不管是行車的安全、資訊的取得或者是相關收聽的品質就會變得比較差我們能不能讓儘管這兩個電台提升到FM有沒有頻道的空間這個部分來講的話我們有跟衛福部討論過這個部分來講頻道上是還有空間但是我們已經依照相關的程序在處理當中"},{"start":348.619,"end":374.918,"text":"我想第一個先讓儘管這兩個AM跟FN的這樣的台南跟新竹從AM能夠提升到FN讓整個收聽的品質能夠穩定全國都能夠一致然後我們接下來還有其實還有其他的公家的電台還是有問題吧漁業電台還有這個教育電台也是有這樣的一個使用AM的這樣的一個部分的"},{"start":375.638,"end":377.059,"text":"目前是有嗎?"},{"start":395.095,"end":412.823,"text":"來說明一下那個報告委員對應該那個認證信私我想那個應該是有的應該是有應該是有啦我們來進行相關的這樣的這是為民眾服務相關的交通安全交通疏解那京廣電台是有很大的一個幫助的作用我們再把資料再跟我們報告好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153440","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153440","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7079889421a536648bd59c493b59145da8feb068d4dbfff0b0ca931418b5c04cd175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:17:03 - 09:25:31","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司就「國家機器以手機定位、分析個資特性等方式侵犯人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:17:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:25:31+08:00","duration":508,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":109,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時17分）主席，請黃部長上臺。"],["主席：黃部長，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：林委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：黃部長，517的時候我在立法院裡面，我看著立法院外面的標語寫的是「民主已死」；519的時候，我再看到民眾黨外面集會的標語叫做「打倒新黨國」；521的時候我看到外面的標語叫做「反黑箱、反擴權」，但實質上這個案子我個人覺得非常非常的遺憾，非常非常的吃驚，因為這是一個很明顯侵犯個人隱私、踐踏基本人權的一個案子。我一直認為臺灣是個民主法治國家，像美國好萊塢、蘇聯這樣的情節，不應該發生在臺灣，但是我們現在看到狀況等於是跟「全民公敵」這部快20年前的電影，還是The Bourne Identity「神鬼認證」一樣，好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節，用國家機器來監控我們全體的人民，在一個大型的活動的時候。","我想請問部長，因為部長您是資安的專家，您在就職數發部部長之前，我那時候有提醒過我會問這些事情，請問一下，目前這個技術是否可行？Yes or No？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，技術上我剛才講過，資料的串接都有在散布在各系統，當然可行，但是會相當的困難。"],["林委員沛祥：所以這個技術是可行的？"],["黃部長彥男：可行，但是會相當困難，因為要串接很多系統，事實上每個系統是獨立的，一定要各個系統都要允許，所以這個方面在技術上可行，在行政流程……"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長，因為讓我們知道，我們現在確認這個技術是可行的，因為我們一直是道聽塗說，可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題；可能我們用LINE會有日本的問題；可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題；甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題，可是沒想到我們自己的手機在臺灣就有這樣技術，謝謝部長。","再下一位，我想請黃次長。"],["主席：好，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：次長你好。那時候王義川先生說：有些是小草、有些是太陽花，占了整個活動的六成，我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成，20歲以下差不多占一成二，巴拉巴拉講了一堆，最重要是說這些人跟在519樓下的不一樣，517跟519不一樣，跟1月13日也不一樣。請問一下，像這樣資訊透露的說法、這樣的行為，是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，本部所掌管的是通訊保障及監察法，通保法只能就犯罪的個案調取通訊紀錄，沒有辦法……"],["林委員沛祥：對，可是如果這樣，像你剛才講過……"],["黃次長謀信：它沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調閱……"],["林委員沛祥：全面性的這樣是否違法？如果有人做出這樣的行動是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：那涉及到是不是有違反個人資料保護法的問題……"],["林委員沛祥：是不是違法？如果大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，個人資料保護法非本部主管的業務，本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法。"],["林委員沛祥：所以你無法跟我講是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。"],["林委員沛祥：那請問是哪個部會可以跟我講是否違法？"],["黃次長謀信：目前有它的目的主管機關。"],["林委員沛祥：哪一位？"],["黃次長謀信：個人資料保護法的目的主管機關。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我想請問一下，如果以你的辦案經驗，你是前任檢察官，嚴格講起來、理論上來講，王先生不是主管的人，不應該得到這方面的資訊，對吧？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這已經涉及到個案，個案的事實、法律要適用、要偵辦，前提是要……"],["林委員沛祥：我是說你以前的先例。"],["黃次長謀信：對，跟委員報告……"],["林委員沛祥：我們講辦案、講先例，以你的慣例、先例之外，現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情，我會很好奇，因為這整個系統看起來、run起來……在4月20號時就已經有人預告5月17號、5月21號、5月28號……就已經有人在媒體上面直接預告318再起，所以他們就已經知道了。我剛剛也請教了林國成委員，519的活動什麼時候就暫定了？他說是兩個禮拜前，差不多5月初，所以這些時間都很明確的時候，以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的，怎麼樣趨動當然有困難性。你現在把這變成個案，好，我可以接受你這個講法，對於這件事情來講，我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了，這些資訊後來也拿到了，然後你說這是個案，好，我給你。但說實在話，本席會認為，單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料，如果說個案是刑事責任，對吧？可是如果是通案，這麼大規模的話，嚴格講起來這只能做不能說，這應該是國安局長才能拿到的資訊，可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿到這些資訊呢？請你解釋一下。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果是個案的話，臺北地檢署就有一個個案，事實上在5月19號已經分案在偵辦，但委員所提出的通案性問題就不是我們檢察機關辦理個案時能夠處理……"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝次長。我也想請問一下中華電信董事長。"],["主席：請中華電信郭董事長。"],["林委員沛祥：董事長，如果說以你們……當然你們現在是全面否認，不過我很好奇，如果以你們辦業務的話，這樣資料是如何取得的？"],["郭董事長水義：我們不知道他的資料……"],["林委員沛祥：如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣做，英國倫敦用一家MAC address的網路垃圾桶就可以做出這樣的東西，我不相信11年之後，中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到？我相信黃部長在AT＆T任職過，也知道這東西其實很稀鬆平常，只是願不願意做而已。我想請問一下，這個資料是如何取得的？一般來講，如果說是刑事案件，你們會如何取得這個資料？"],["郭董事長水義：中華電信處理任何個人資料，包括人潮分析，我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理，剛才所提到的相關功能，我們沒有任何……"],["林委員沛祥：去識別會給一般人他們的MAC address跟他們的年紀嗎？這完完全全都是王先生在媒體上面講的，上面有說這些是不同人，甚至細到連年齡都有，這是他透漏訊息，我想本身那份資料應該更完整，而且速度很快，我記得他講的時候是5月22日，這樣變成是5月19號、5月17號，甚至5月21日資料就出來了，怎麼會有這麼快、這麼迅速的作業呢？"],["郭董事長水義：從5/17到5/24之間，本公司沒有提供任何有關的資料，我們沒有提供這方面的人潮分析資料。"],["林委員沛祥：那我想請問一下，如果有的話，通常是一個企業體要購買像這方面的資料……本席會認為，如果這些資料可以拿出來在政論節目上隨便亂講的話，那基本上詐騙集團問題就很大啦，難怪我們詐騙這麼多，因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶！這些如果說是……為什麼我不會去問NCC，因為我覺得NCC不會想去管這些事情，所以我完全不會去問NCC的原因就在這裡，因為NCC不會管。"],["郭董事長水義：報告委員，中華電信的資料都在公司內部，不會外流。"],["林委員沛祥：不會外流？"],["郭董事長水義：對，不會外流。"],["林委員沛祥：我會覺得這次的質詢，還是一句話：聽君一席話如聽一席話。其實對我們國會議員來講是非常、非常、非常失望的，老實講，我們期待……因為這件事情，你說什麼叫做毀憲亂政？這個就是毀憲亂政，民主法治國家從來沒有遇過這樣的事情，就算有，說真的這樣子赤裸裸的在全國、全世界面前說我們是臺灣民主法治自由國家，但是我們的人民是這樣受到監控，而且是有意、有計畫（plan）的一個「聯合組合拳」的時候，我個人覺得對我們現在的體制非常失望，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝林沛祥委員的發言。","下一位請李昆澤召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","徐富癸","許智傑","陳素月","羅智強","游顥","翁曉玲","何欣純","王鴻薇","徐巧芯","邱若華","吳宗憲","洪孟楷","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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《全民公敵》還是《Board Identity》《神鬼認證》一樣好萊塢的電影才會看到的情節用國家機器來去監控我們全體的人民在一個大型的活動的時候那我想只想請問部長 因為部長您是治安的專家您在就職速發部部長之前我那時候有提醒過說我會問這些事情請問一下目前這個技術是否可行"},{"start":85.789,"end":110.139,"text":"報告委員那個技術上我剛剛講過資料的串接是都有在散佈在各系統當然可行但是會相當的困難所以這個技術是可行的可行但是會相當困難因為要串接很多系統那事實上每個系統是獨立的那一定要各個系統都要得到允許所以這個方面在行政流程上技術上可行在行政流程上是很困難因為讓我們知道說我們現在確認有這個技術是可行的"},{"start":112.6,"end":129.805,"text":"因為我們一直是報道聽途說說可能我們用美國的WhatsApp會有這個問題可能我們用Line會有日本的問題可能我們用Telegram會有俄國的問題甚至可能我們用微信會有大陸的問題可是沒想到我們自己的手機在台灣就會有這樣的技術謝謝部長那在下一位我想請黃次長"},{"start":140.737,"end":156.761,"text":"市長你好那時候王毅川王先生說有些是小草有些是太陽花的占了整個活動的六成我們用手機去看他們的年齡差不多六成二十歲以下差不多占一成二巴拉巴拉講了一堆最重要的是說這些人在519樓下的也不一樣517跟519不一樣跟1月13也不一樣請問一下像這樣的資訊透露之後這樣的說法這樣的行為是否違法"},{"start":165.72,"end":183.816,"text":"公共報告本部所掌管是通訊保障監察法就通法無法他只能就犯罪的個案上才調取通信紀律對可是像如果這樣他你剛才講過他沒有辦法這樣全面性的來調整全面性的這樣是否違法如果有人做出這樣的行動是否違法那涉及到這是不是違反個人資料保護法的問題那就不是違法如果大規模的"},{"start":186.258,"end":210.791,"text":"關於大規模的監控個人資訊是否違法?個人資料保護法就非本部主管的業務了本部主管業務是通訊保障及監察法所以你無法跟我講是否違法?對 沒有錯那請問是哪個部位可以講是否違法?目前有他的目的主管機關哪一位?個人資料保護法的目的主管機關好 那我還想請問一下如果說您認為以你的辦案經驗您是前任檢察官對"},{"start":211.832,"end":229.145,"text":"那嚴格講起來王先生理論上來講他不應該得到質問他應該不是主管的人來得到這方面的資訊對吧那各位報告這個已經涉及到個案個案的事實法律要適用要偵辦不是說你以前的先例對因為我們講辦案講先例以你的慣例先例之外"},{"start":229.485,"end":242.48,"text":"那現在是一個政策會執行長做到這樣的事情因為我會很好奇啦因為是整個系統這樣看起來整個run起來我們在4月20號的時候就有人預告說5月17號、5月21號、5月28號、5月28號這個就有318在就已經有人在媒體上面直接先預告了"},{"start":249.008,"end":276.543,"text":"所以已經知道那我剛剛也請教了我們那個林國臣委員說什麼時候一五一九的活動暫定的他說是五月是兩個禮拜前差不多五月初所以這些時間都很明確的時候那以我們剛剛知道這個技術是可行的那怎麼樣去做當然有困難性那當然你說現在是把這邊變成個案好我給你這個講法但是對於這件事情來講我們都知道什麼時間發生什麼事情了那這邊資訊後來也拿到了"},{"start":277.864,"end":298.726,"text":"然後你說這是個案好我給你說實在話本席會認為說你單單純純以一個政策會執行長就拿到這麼高級的資料如果你說個案是刑事責任對吧可是如果是通案如果是這麼大大規模的話這只有兩個人講起來這只能做不能說這應該是國安才能國安局長才能拿到資訊可是怎麼一個政黨的政策會執行長會拿這些資訊呢"},{"start":300.502,"end":321.941,"text":"請你解釋一下跟委員報告如果是個案的話臺北地檢署就個案事實上他在2月19號已經分案在偵辦但委員所提出的通案性的問題的話就不是我們檢察機關辦個案時能夠謝謝市長那我最後面想請問一下那個我們中華電信董事長來請中華電信請郭董"},{"start":329.076,"end":336.822,"text":"董事長如果說以你們當然你們現在是全面否認不過我是很好奇如果說以你們在去辦業務的話這樣的資料是如何取得的?"},{"start":338.127,"end":366.667,"text":"我們不知道他的資料如果2013年英國倫敦就可以這樣去做的時候英國倫敦用一家有MAC address的這個垃圾桶在網路垃圾桶就可以去做出這樣的東西我不相信11年之後中華電信連這樣的資訊都沒有拿到我相信黃部長在AT&T在AT&T任職過也知道這東西其實是很心中平常只是願不願意做而已那我想請問一下這個資料是如何取得的一般來講如果說是情緒案件我們會如何取得這個資料"},{"start":367.688,"end":383.227,"text":"中華電信處理任何個人資料包括人潮分析我們一切都是依照法定規定來辦理剛才所提到的相關的功能我們沒有任何去識別化會給一般人他們的MAC Address跟他們的年紀嗎?"},{"start":385.046,"end":405.003,"text":"我就是告訴王先生在媒體上面講的上面是有說這些是不同人而且甚至繫到說連年齡都有是他透露訊息我想本身那份資料應該更完整而且速度很快我記得這個他講的時候是5月22他5月22的話變成是5月19號5月17號甚至5月521資料很快就出來怎麼會有這麼快這麼迅速的作業呢"},{"start":412.179,"end":440.314,"text":"本公司沒有提供任何有關到從517到524之間任何的資料我們沒有提供任何人潮這方面的人潮分析資料那我想請問一下如果有的話那通常是一個如果是企業體要購買像這方面的資料因為本席會認為說如果這些資料可以拿出來在這個政論節目上面隨便亂講的話那基本上我們詐騙集團問題就很大啦那難怪我們詐騙這麼多因為我們什麼資料都可以給人家耶"},{"start":441.823,"end":444.406,"text":"報告委員中華電信的資料都在公司內部不會外流不會外流對不會外流"},{"start":460.953,"end":475.522,"text":"我會覺得這次的質詢還是一句話聽軍醫習話如聽醫習話其實對我們來講對我們國會議員來講是非常非常非常失望的那老實講我們期待因為這件事情你說什麼叫做毀憲亂政這個就是毀憲亂政"},{"start":480.882,"end":481.042,"text":"以上"}]}},{"id":"153439","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153439","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c70740240baabf5a2fe8b263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c8255030c01a61e3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:22:13 - 09:34:36","影片長度":"00:12:23","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:22:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:34:36+08:00","duration":743,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":143,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時22分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。上一次修訂財政收支劃分法是什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：民國88年吧？"],["黃委員國昌：1999年，25年前了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，過去這25年，民進黨在野的時候，主張修財政收支劃分法，我之前在質詢的時候，其實也帶部長看過，那個時候是民主進步黨的主席蘇貞昌率領著他們執政的縣市長出來說，財政收支劃分法沒有修正，看到這些縣市財政困境，就像小孩子嗷嗷待哺，米缸空空如也的感受。2015年蔡英文在競選總統的時候，他也主張要修正財政收支劃分法，等到民進黨執政了以後，我們現任的總統賴清德當初在當行政院院長的時候，他有承諾要修正財政收支劃分法。到目前為止，我們看到的是持續跳票，2018年的時候，賴清德行政院長他也承諾要提出院版的草案，那目前院版的草案進度如何？請教部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們財政部已經初步擬了修法的方向，然後也請各地方政府就有關分配的指標提出意見，相關的差距其實是蠻大，而且指標多達30到50個，我們目前來說是因為要趕快縮小這個差距，然後凝聚一個最大的共識，這是水平分配的部分，跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你沒有回答我的問題，我說行政院的版本還要多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：行政院的版本我們必須把共識先凝聚出來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以沒有時間表？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，因為剛剛也跟黃委員報告過了，過往雖然在88年以後，也歷經5次提出財劃法的修正，但是為什麼沒有能夠完成立法，就是因為沒有共識，所以在沒有共識的情況下提出立法的版本，其實是仍不夠完整……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在財政部的立場……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的目的就是要把它完成……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，請部長針對問題回答啦，我還是一樣的問題，就是目前行政院版本的草案沒有時間表，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們要有共識，我們要有一致的共識。"],["黃委員國昌：針對目前財劃法的研修方向，你們提出了五個重要的研修方向嘛，這個是你們在5月20號所提出來的版本。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個研修方向是擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模嘛，剛剛你一直都在推給水平分配，我們前幾次質詢的時候，這些問題都討論過了。我們針對問題具體的來談，你們所提出的研修方向，第一個，擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模，請問你們針對這一個研修方向，目前的規劃是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，擴大統籌分配稅款的規模是我們的一個方向，但是在這個規模……"],["黃委員國昌：具體的內容是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：具體的內容，我們必須要去思考，第一個，我們要考量地方的財政需求，這是要考量的，同時也要考量中央必須要維持一定的財政韌性，以及事權有沒有要做調整，因為經費跟事權是有相關聯的，這個部分，我們也會會同主計總處做通盤的檢討……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在具體的內容是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：具體的內容就是跟剛剛委員報告的，是這樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：你剛剛沒有談到任何具體的內容！"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員您……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在是沒有具體的內容就對了嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有具體內容，我們來看一下歷經過去民進黨在野時候的呼籲、民進黨執政時候的承諾，到現在2024年了，不分黨派的地方首長都大聲的呼籲要修財劃法，我針對財政部在秀給大家數字的時候，數字的呈現是一門藝術，這個是你們在5月20號的時候所提出的版本嘛，你們給大家……"],["莊部長翠雲：是我們提供的。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，你們基本上面想要跟大家講的是說，其實我們中央對地方政府經常性財源挹注的情況，數額不斷在增加嘛，這個是你們從2014年到2023年數字增長，你們所畫的圖，應該沒有錯吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，就是我們除了統籌分配稅款之外，還有加上一般性的補助款對地方財政的挹注。"],["黃委員國昌：我請教一下部長，你們過去這八年，統籌分配稅款占國稅的比例是增加還是減少？"],["陳署長柏誠：我們……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，請部長回答，統籌分配稅款占國稅的比例是增加還是減少？我一直說啦，統計數字的呈現有高度的藝術性，當你用絕對值來畫的時候，你要告訴全體國人的是，中央統籌分配稅款分配給地方的數額不斷的增加嘛，它占國稅的比例是增加還是減少？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，絕對數字是增加的，在比例上是微有下降，但是我們透過一般性的補助款給予補助。"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下，不好意思喔，部長請您繼續看，中央統籌分配稅款占國稅的比例逐年下降，2014年的時候14.64%，到現在2023年，去年最新的數字，這不是我算的，這是財政部的數字算出來，降低到了13.66%，所以分配給地方中央統籌分配稅款的比例占國稅的數額是逐年的在下降。剛剛部長提到了補助款，一般性的補助款占國稅的比例是逐年上升還是下降？怎麼你會比我還不熟！"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分有高有低啦，有高有低啦。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們再來看一下，2014年的時候，一般補助款占國稅的比例18.88%，從2016年以降，有超過這個水平的，大概只有2020年，占了19.05%，但到了2022年、2023年的時候，又降到了14.4%，當統籌分配稅款分給地方占國稅的比例每一年下降，一般補助款，過去八年跟以前比起來，所占的比例一樣在下降。我們看最後的這個，把統籌分配稅款跟一般的補助款占國稅的比例，請部長看一下這個圖，從2014年33.53%，到了2023年的時候，已經下降多少？到28.06%了，這兩根柱子，我們分別統籌分配稅款也好，補助款也好，你們在財政部的報告裡面，不願意揭露的數字是什麼？占國稅的percentage實際上是什麼？實際上，過去這八年跟以前比起來，是逐年在下降。","現在問題就來了，如果在民進黨執政以前，修財政收支劃分法是必要的，要去擴大給地方政府的財源是必要的，那為什麼在民主進步黨執政以後，明明所占的比例是下降的，明明所占的比例是下降的，但現在對於修財劃法的態度，中央政府展現出來的就是能拖就拖嘛，能混就混嘛。","我最後一個最關鍵的問題，你剛剛說有很多版本，這些版本我全部都整理出來了，有陳水扁時期的政院版，有馬英九時期的政院版，有馬英九執政時期的時候民進黨的黨團版，針對垂直分配的問題，到底要怎麼樣去擴大統籌分配稅款的財源，從陳水扁到馬英九，到馬英九時期在野的民主進步黨黨團，全部都有版本。現在我們苦苦在等，一直問、問不到的是過去八年，蔡英文政府澈底跳票，因為這是蔡英文總統在2015年提出來的承諾嘛，說他過去八年澈底跳票這句話說的一點都沒有錯。現在問題來了，賴清德總統上任了，擔任行政院院長的時候，他也說要修財劃法，我現在具體的問，在你們所規劃要擴大統籌分配稅款的方向，具體的內容，你們的版本是比較靠近陳水扁的政院版、馬英九的政院版，還是馬英九執政時期的時候民主進步黨黨團的版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於這一個部分，我們必須要考量，因為時間的不同，中央跟地方的財政狀況必須要重新考量……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，我們看了到嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個必須要重新考量……"],["黃委員國昌：我們剛剛看到具體的數字，就是分配給地方的數額占國稅的比例逐年下降啊，這完全是財政部的data，我沒有說錯啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：但是中央支出同樣也是增加，譬如說，像社福經費就達到九千多億，占整體的經費達到27%，還有國防支出，所以我覺得這個部分必須要從整體來看，中央的經費支出同樣重要……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，中央有非常多的支出，我們都瞭解，bottom line是賴清德總統新的內閣有沒有要像過去的政府一樣，負責任的提出行政院的版本？有還是沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，第一個，過去提出版本為什麼沒有能夠完成修法，就是因為沒有共識，就是地方之間分配沒有共識，所以我們現在針對這個部分在做處理……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我現在在問你的是垂直分配的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：垂直分配剛剛也報告過，我們會把水平分配調整完以後，跟主計總處做整體的討論。第一個，地方的財政是需要考慮，中央的財政韌性也要維持……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，所以目前財政部的立場是，你所謂的共識是過半的縣市有共識就可以，還是要所有的縣市都有共識？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一定要把這個縮小，一定讓它達到最大的一個共識。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的共識指的是什麼？只要有一個縣市提出不同的公式反對，財劃法就不用修嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：那我們也要告訴它原因是什麼，讓它能夠接受，這個部分我們會努力……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們的版本什麼時候要提出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在這個部分就是在凝聚共識的過程嘛，我提的版本，大家都沒有共識也沒有用，因為差距很遠……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了啦，從2018年賴清德當行政院長，到現在2024年繼續用沒有共識當作搪塞的理由……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是搪塞的理由。"],["黃委員國昌：我個人是沒有辦法接受的，沒有關係，接下來我們財委會就要召開公聽會，進行實質的審查，我希望賴清德總統不要忘了他自己在2018年當行政院院長的時候做出來的承諾，現在用水平分配地方政府沒有共識當作藉口，連行政院的版本都提不出來！謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是藉口，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 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財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法財政收支"},{"start":193.621,"end":214.096,"text":"的規模。」剛剛你一直都在推給水平分配。我們前幾次質詢的時候,這個問題都討論過了。我們針對問題具體的來談。你們所提出的研修方向,第一個擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模。請問你們針對這個研修方向目前的規劃是什麼?"},{"start":215.233,"end":242.851,"text":"跟委員報告,擴大統籌分配稅款的規模是我們的一個方向,但是在這個規模...具體的內容是什麼?具體的內容我們必須要去思考第一個,我們要考量地方的財政需求是要考量的,同時也要考量中央必須要維持一定的財政韌性,以及事權有沒有要做調整,因為經費跟事權是有相關聯的,那這個部分呢我們也會會同主計總結...所以現在具體的內容是什麼?具體的內容就是跟剛剛委員報告是這樣的,"},{"start":244.858,"end":271.765,"text":"你剛沒有談到任何具體的內容所以現在是沒有具體的內容就對了嗎?沒有具體內容我們來看一下歷經了過去民進黨在野的時候的呼籲民進黨執政的時候的承諾到現在2024年了不分黨派的地方首長都急修大聲的呼籲要修財劃法"},{"start":273.12,"end":300.421,"text":"我針對財政部在秀給大家數字的時候數字的呈現是一門藝術這個是你們在5月20號的時候所提出的版本嘛你們給大家對嘛,好林志玲上面想要跟大家講的是說其實我們中央對地方政府經常性裁員挹注的情況數額不斷在增加嘛"},{"start":301.657,"end":326.288,"text":"這是你們從2014年到2023年數字增長你們所畫的圖應該沒有錯吧?是的,就是我們除了統籌分配稅款之外還有加上一般性的補助款來我請教一下部長你們過去這8年統籌分配款佔國稅的比例是增加還是減少?不好意思,請部長回答"},{"start":331.944,"end":351.827,"text":"統籌分配款占國稅的比例是增加還是減少?」我一直說啦統計數字的呈現有高度的藝術性當你用絕對值來畫的時候你要告訴全體國人的是中央統籌分配款分配給地方的數額不斷的增加嘛它占國稅的比例是增加還減少"},{"start":353.565,"end":375.342,"text":"額﹑第一個,絕對數字是增加的,在比例上是唯有下降,但是我們有透過一般性的補助款可以補助。不好意思喔,部長請您繼續去看齁。中央統籌分配款佔國稅的比例逐年下降。2014年的時候,14.64,到現在2023年,去年最新的數字,這不是我算的。"},{"start":376.417,"end":394.831,"text":"這是財政部的數字算出來的降低到了13.66所以分配給地方中央統籌分配款的比例佔國稅的數額是逐年的在下降剛剛部長提到了補助款一般性的補助款佔國稅的比例是逐年上升還下降怎麼你會比我還不熟"},{"start":403.388,"end":415.954,"text":"這個部分有高有低啦好來我們再來看一下2014年的時候一般補助款占國稅的比例18.88%從2016年以降有超過這個水平的大概只有2020年占了19.05但"},{"start":423.257,"end":450.575,"text":"到了2022年、2023年的時候又降到了14.40當統籌分配款分給地方佔國稅的比例每一年下降一般補助款過去8年跟以前比起來所佔的比例一樣在下降我們看最後的這個把統籌分配款跟一般的補助款佔國稅的比例來請部長看一下這個圖"},{"start":453.741,"end":482.034,"text":"從2014年33.53%到了2023年的時候已經下降多少?到28.06%了這兩根柱子我們分別統籌分配款也好、補助款也好你們在財政部的報告裡面不願意接候的數字是什麼?佔國稅的percentage實際上是什麼?實際上過去這8年跟以前比起來是逐年在下降"},{"start":482.745,"end":507.466,"text":"那現在問題就來了如果在民進黨執政以前修財政收支劃分法是必要的要去擴大給地方政府的財源是必要的那為什麼在民主進步黨執政以後民民所佔的比例是下降的民民所佔的比例是下降的那現在對於修財劃法的態度"},{"start":508.584,"end":527.146,"text":"中央政府展現出來的就是能拖就拖嘛能混就混嘛來我最後一個阿最關鍵的問題你剛說阿有很多版本這個版本我全部都整理出來了有陳水扁時期的政院版有馬英九時期的政院版"},{"start":527.947,"end":548.448,"text":"有馬英九執政時期的時候民眾黨的黨團版針對垂直分配的問題到底要怎麼樣去擴大統籌分配款的財源從陳水扁到馬英九到馬英九時期在野的民主進步黨黨團全部都有版本"},{"start":549.609,"end":572.856,"text":"現在我們苦苦在等一直問問不到的是過去8年蔡英文政府徹底跳票因為這是蔡英文總統在2015年提出來的承諾嘛說她過去8年徹底跳票這句話一點說的都沒有錯現在問題來了賴清德總統上任了擔任行政院院長的時候他也說要修財劃法"},{"start":574.042,"end":591.15,"text":"我現在具體地問在你們所規劃要擴大統籌分配款的方向具體的內容你們的版本是比較靠近陳水扁的政院版馬英九的政院版還是馬英九執政時期的時候民主進步黨黨團的版本"},{"start":592.951,"end":608.783,"text":"跟委員報告,對於這一個部分我們必須要考量一個時間的不同,中央跟地方的一個財政狀況必須要重新考量。我們剛剛看到具體的數字,就是分配給地方的數額,佔國稅的比例逐年下降啊。"},{"start":609.663,"end":631.628,"text":"這完全是財政部的data我沒有說錯啊但是中央支出同樣也是增加比如說像社福經費就達到9000多元但整體的經費達到27%還有國防支出所以我覺得這個部分必須要從整體來看沒有關係啦中央有非常多的支出我們都瞭解中央有非常多的支出我們都瞭解buffline是"},{"start":633.325,"end":637.648,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續擬具"},{"start":648.837,"end":667.449,"text":"就是因為沒有共識就是地方之間分配沒有共識所以我們不好意思喔我現在在問你的是垂直分配的問題垂直分配剛剛也報告過第一個我們會把水平分配這邊調整完以後跟主計總處做整體的討論第一個地方的財政是需要考慮所以目前財政病的立場"},{"start":670.15,"end":696.223,"text":"所以目前財政部的立場是你所謂的共識是過半的縣市有共識就可以還是要所有的縣市都有共識?我們一定要把這個縮小一定讓他達到最大的一個共識所以你的共識指的是什麼?只要有一個縣市提出不同的公式反對財化法就不用修嗎?是這樣嗎?我們也要告訴他原因是什麼讓他能夠接受所以你們的版本什麼時候要提出來?"},{"start":697.363,"end":724.563,"text":"現在這個部分就是在凝聚共識的過程嘛我提的版本大家都沒有共識也沒有用我這樣說好了啦從2018年賴清德當行政院長到現在2024年繼續用沒有共識當作唐賽的理由我個人是沒有辦法接受那沒有關係接下來我們財委會就要召開公聽會進行實質的審查我希望賴清德總統賴清德總統"},{"start":726.764,"end":729.808,"text":"收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續擬具:「財政"}]}},{"id":"153438","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153438","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7073ba08cb02cdbb3bbb263bafebededa07eb068d4dbfff0b0c5b5cf774a2689c845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:11:07 - 09:21:43","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2024-06-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等5案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳超明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）\n(一)\t本院委員丁學忠等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-06-03","start_time":"2024-06-03T09:11:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-03T09:21:43+08:00","duration":636,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":87,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時11分）謝謝主席，請莊部長及主計長。"],["主席：請莊部長及陳主計長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位早。我想我們很榮幸有兩位女性的財經首長，是少數留任，而且也深受賴總統信任的主計長。這個案子在2月1號我們上任之後，總質詢的第一天我就質詢了陳建仁院長，當時就希望財政部去提出對於財劃法的相對對案，到今天為止我還沒有看到案子，部長，你們什麼時候要提對案？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，委員在質詢院長的時候有提出來，院長也說過要廣徵各界意見並凝聚共識……"],["黃委員珊珊：已經徵詢很久了，徵詢三個多月了，現在呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，過去有五度提出過財劃法的修正案，都沒有能夠完成，就是因為在沒有共識的情況下，一直沒有完成，所以在這一次的時候，我們必須要凝聚各地方政府的意見，我們針對這個部分已經請地方政府表達意見……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我們已經問了你們三個多月了，三個多月、徵詢了25年，25年加上這三個多月叫做一事無成啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對於各地方政府……"],["黃委員珊珊：你也是認為一事無成嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於各地方政府所提出的相關指標，我們也提供給民眾黨團來瞭解，凝聚……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我想這件事情很清楚……"],["莊部長翠雲：差距很大，所以這部分我們也再請他們釐清各個指標，裡面要有一個具體的定義，然後我們會在釐清以後儘快開會……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你給我時間嘛！我在2月1號就問你時間啦！你們時間要多久，還要再研議5年嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：時間的話，在沒有共識的情況下，時間其實是沒有意義的。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，禮拜三就要開公聽會了，這個禮拜就要開始審議了，你再告訴我你沒有時間，請問行政院到今天為止要不要面對財劃法在立法院審議的事實？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想大院的審議我們一定是尊重，可是我們必須還是要把相關的指標……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你沒有對案，到現在這個moment，你還是沒有對案，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們必須把分配的公式要凝聚共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，我查過你在民國99年的成大碩士論文，你當時在臺南市當主計處長，你說得很清楚，財劃法必須要快速的修正；第二個，我們希望，你也希望要公平合理的分配。2012年的賴市長也說要修財劃法，2017的賴院長也說要修財劃法，到今天為止，剛剛聽到部長講話，當然你是新任的，我希望你把你在地方政府碰到的困難以及事實上發生的狀況，清楚地在這個委員會裡面向委員、大家來做說明。主計長，你的立場，不要告訴我，你換了位置就換了腦袋。"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上是情況有改變，整個有做改變，當初我在的時候，那時候在臺南市的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：的確是困難嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：的確是困難，而且它舉債額度非常地高，但是後來在102年有修改公債法……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有好一點點？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，在舉債方面的壓力就沒有那麼大，但是問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位，我想大家都知道……"],["陳主計長淑姿：財源的部分，因為到現在為止它是逐年增加，所以一般性的補助款，包括我們統籌分配稅……"],["黃委員珊珊：狀況有好一些，但是……"],["陳主計長淑姿：有好，增加很多，其實是增加很多……"],["黃委員珊珊：我都理解。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為從103年增加了兩千多億的一般性補助還有統籌分配稅。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，財政狀況不錯，所以增加預算，大家就比較不吵了，但是相對的，它就是變成一個由中央來決定如何分配，沒有完整清楚或者是明確的方式。最重要的是這次各位看到各個版本，16個版本裡面其實都在討論垂直分配的問題，因為垂直分配，錢不夠，所以大家才會在水平分配的時候不斷的吵架，重點在於今天的垂直分配。","我們台灣民眾黨非常負責任的去計算出來，中央政府總預算將近7、8年來，從25億到四千多億所謂的歲計賸餘，平均起來每一年剩下來大概就是兩千多億。所以台灣民眾黨的版本，我們從垂直分配裡面，把營業稅一部分留下給地方，把營所稅抽百分之五給地方，這樣的影響，從財政部幫我們算出來的大概是2,700億。也就是說，台灣民眾黨所提的版本很負責任的，在不影響中央政事的情況下，每一年有這麼多的歲計賸餘的情況下，大概有兩千億的錢，這個餅可以拿下來分給地方政府，這是我們認為比較合理的方式，這也是我們希望行政院，包括財政部、包括主計處，把你們中央政府到底要有多少錢、到底有多少錢可以拿出來分配，把它講清楚說明白，兩位瞭解我的意思嗎？","如果我們的版本，你們認為有問題，也請你們說出來你們的問題，如果你覺得其他委員的版本有問題，也請你說出來他的問題，而不是到今天為止，沒有一個行政院的立場，這是我非常失望，我已經問了3個月。所以部長，我瞭解你們都因為內閣交接的關係，可能會有這項的落差，但是我希望在財政委員會即將審查的同時，行政院要有自己的態度，要把這些說清楚，不要再造成社會的衝突，更不要造成地方政府大家可能會有互相對立的狀況，這都不是財劃法應該有的結果。","兩位，我相信你們都是非常優秀的事務官升上來的，所以在事務官的腦袋裡面，想到的可能是怎麼樣讓它合理分配，但是我們要做的是，要讓一般的百姓知道地方政府他們的困難在哪裡。我講一個非常簡單的例子，只要中央一說軍公教加薪，第一年中央絕對補助，第二年請自己想辦法，對吧？每一次都這樣，我們在臺北市的時候也發現，中央只要請客，地方就要買單，但地方的錢從哪裡來？就是看中央政府今年補助款再給多一點好了，明年有沒有不知道，這才是為什麼要修財劃法的主要原因，因為不明確、不公開、不透明，就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種的狀況。到今天為止，就像剛剛主計長講的，因為他在地方政府待過，財政困難的時候，求助無門，最後變成什麼？仰中央的鼻息，所以我們希望財劃法是要把這些分配的方式清楚、明確，你既然會給它這筆錢，就把它明確化，所以把中央財稅的需求到底有多少講清楚，可以分配給地方有多少也講清楚。兩千多億是民眾黨的版本，我們沒有一定的既定立場，但是我們認為行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度。賴總統他在當市長、當院長的時候都提過。","第二個，這個法已經25年沒有修了。第三個，我剛剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話，水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵。所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚，主計處長你的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢、到底會影響多少，讓人民知道，這個不是一個零和遊戲，也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲，而是大家都能夠健全財政，然後讓地方政府回到它既有的地方自治。","我再講一個數字，六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%，一般縣市的自籌款23%到27%，兩位覺得這樣合理嗎？一般的縣市只有25%來自於自籌款，其他都要靠中央補助，它怎麼過日子？它只能每天在這邊吵吵吵、喊窮，然後靠著中央給的憐憫，給他們多一點錢，25%到27%自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政。部長，你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配，我們現在也就是在努力水平分配這一塊，把差距一直縮小，然後讓它共識為更大，這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分，所以我們努力的是這一塊，過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成，就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識，委員提的就是這個問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長，我希望你把你做的這個事情入法，你正在做的這些努力，把它入法……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，就是要把它入法。"],["黃委員珊珊：大家都很清楚，把它入法，我們期待你的版本把它入法。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以分配公式要入法，這是沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們同意，在我們審議之前，你能不能夠提出你的版本讓它入法？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在我們就在凝聚共識，就是在努力這一塊。"],["黃委員珊珊：在財政委員會審查的同時，你能不能提出版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：禮拜三召委這邊也已經要舉辦公聽會，其實我覺得可以大家再聽一聽各地方政府的意見，以及專家學者們的意見，大家就知道這個差距在哪裡。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我們不希望到時候行政院說這個是沒有經過討論的、沒有經過你們表示意見的，到時候再說沒有討論，然後內容你們不知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們基本的原則已經出來，第一個，直轄市跟縣市政府要劃一分配的基礎；第二個，我們要精進分配的機制，這個部分其實我們已經……"],["黃委員珊珊：我都沒有意見，請你拿出來讓它入法，你的基準、你的公式，讓它入法。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們的目的就是要有共識，然後入法。"],["黃委員珊珊：我問了3個月，我要看到你的版本，我希望星期三可以看到你的版本，在我們審查的同時，我可以看到你的版本，好嗎？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。部長，禮拜三還有時間，也請您儘快把你們的版本準備好，謝謝。","請問在場委員，剛剛所宣讀的議事錄內容有無錯誤？（無）沒有錯誤，議事錄確定。","接著繼續質詢，請黃國昌黃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","黃珊珊","黃國昌","李彥秀","李坤城","郭國文","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張智倫","鄭正鈐","牛煦庭","萬美玲","邱鎮軍","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","邱若華"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-06-03"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」14案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支\n劃分法修正草案」案、(二)本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇\n甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等 5案、(三)本院\n委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)\n本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案、(五)本院委員王鴻薇等\n24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳超\n明等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)本院\n委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」\n等2案、(八)本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第\n三十八條之二條文修正草案」案、(九)本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條\n之一條文修正草案」案；二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：（繼續詢答）(一)本院委員丁學忠\n等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收\n支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「財政收支劃分\n法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.134718750000001,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.075343750000002,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.62784375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.180343750000002,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.99784375,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.97221875,"end":25.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.91721875,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.987218750000004,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.34909375,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.69409375,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.95909375,"end":66.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.35034375,"end":62.789093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.447218750000005,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.19346875000001,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.83659375,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.67596875000001,"end":85.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.76346875,"end":91.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.05034375000001,"end":93.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.70846875000001,"end":94.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.54784375000001,"end":113.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.96471875,"end":102.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.76471875,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.79784375000001,"end":115.67534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.07596875,"end":121.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.24409375,"end":133.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.74159375,"end":123.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.90034375000002,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.80284375000002,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.59971875000002,"end":140.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.56159375000001,"end":142.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.54846875,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.03346875,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.83909375000002,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.37721875000003,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.24096875,"end":238.39034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.11721875,"end":204.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.55159375000002,"end":206.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.61346875,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.81534375,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.75971875000002,"end":224.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.75909375,"end":229.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.54346875000002,"end":230.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.58971875,"end":232.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.05721875,"end":245.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.47784375,"end":259.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.53471875,"end":260.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.15471875000003,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.08659375,"end":272.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.23721875,"end":280.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.37096875000003,"end":285.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.57284375,"end":306.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.95346875,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.37471875,"end":325.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.39784375,"end":331.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.40534375000004,"end":336.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.41721875,"end":337.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.66159375,"end":348.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.65159375,"end":356.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.75159375000004,"end":359.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.51909375,"end":361.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.52721875000003,"end":367.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.85534375000003,"end":372.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.17096875000004,"end":373.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.82471875000005,"end":379.667843750000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期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政收支劃分法．立法院第16期財政"},{"start":148.479,"end":168.897,"text":"在民國99年我查過你在成大的碩士論文你當時在台南市當主席處長很清楚你說得很清楚財劃法必須要快速的修正第二個我們希望你也希望說要公平合理的分配2012的賴市長也說要修財劃法"},{"start":169.778,"end":173.621,"text":"收支劃分法（事由：一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查:「財政"},{"start":195.651,"end":212.411,"text":"事實上是情況有改變整個有做改變那當初我在的時候那時候在台南市的時候的確是困難的確是困難的確困難而且他取代額度非常的高但是後來呢在102年他有修改"},{"start":213.271,"end":215.352,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案：（事由：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法修正草案》案。"},{"start":238.663,"end":247.887,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第2會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第3會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第4會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第5會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第6會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第7會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第8會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第9會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第10會期財政收支劃分法．立法院第11會期財政收支劃分法．立法"},{"start":259.656,"end":261.418,"text":"收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":281.42,"end":282.981,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答：一、繼續詢答"},{"start":307,"end":333.533,"text":"每一年有這麼多的稅金剩餘的情況下大概有2000億的錢這個餅可以拿下來分給地方政府這是我們認為比較合理的方式這也是我們希望行政院包括財政部包括主計處把你們中央政府你到底要有多少錢你到底有多少錢可以拿出來分配把它講清楚說明白兩位了解我的意思嗎?如果我們的版本你們認為有問題也請你們說出來你們的問題"},{"start":336.474,"end":349.704,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會議第16次全體委員會議第16次全體委員會議第17次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第18次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第19次全體委員會議第20次全體委員會議第21次全體委員會議第22次全體委員會議第23次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第24次全體委員會議第27次全體委員會議第28次全體委員會議第29次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第30次全體委員會議第31次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第32次全體委員會議第33次全體委員會"},{"start":359.631,"end":380.942,"text":"行政院要有自己的態度要把這些說清楚不要再造成社會的衝突更不要造成地方政府大家可能會有互相對立的狀況這都不是財化法應該有的結果兩位我都相信你們都是非常優秀的事務官身上來的所以在事務官的"},{"start":382.022,"end":383.403,"text":"收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":400.313,"end":415.798,"text":"稍後請自己想辦法,對吧?每一次都這樣。我們在台北市的時候也發現,中央只要請客,地方就要買單。但地方的錢從哪裡來?就是看中央政府,我今年補助款再給你多一點,好了。"},{"start":416.198,"end":417.058,"text":"收支劃分法 明年有沒有?"},{"start":417.058,"end":442.972,"text":"不知道。」這才是為什麼要修財劃法的主要原因因為不明確、不公開、不透明就會造成中央請客、地方買單的這種種種的狀況到今天為止就像剛剛主席處長講的因為他在地方政府待過財政困難的時候求助無門最後變成什麼?養中央的鼻息所以我們希望財劃法是要把這些分配的方式"},{"start":443.976,"end":446.199,"text":"收支劃分法．立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":462.239,"end":484.822,"text":"行政院必須要說清楚你們對財劃法的態度如果賴總統他在當市長當院長的時候都提過第二個這個法已經25年沒有修了第三個我剛講的垂直分配如果可以達到公平的話水平分配其實基本上不會再有人爭吵所以部長你的任務就是把垂直分配分清楚"},{"start":485.823,"end":509.924,"text":"收支出場的任務就是告訴我們中央政府到底需要多少錢到底會影響多少讓人民知道不是這個不是一個零和遊戲也不是一個你輸我贏的遊戲而是大家都能夠健全財政然後讓地方政府回到他既有的地方自治我再講一個數字六都的自籌款大概是50%到55%"},{"start":513.612,"end":540.22,"text":"一般的縣市他的自籌款23%到27%兩位你覺得這樣合理嗎一般的縣市他只有25%來自於自籌款其他都要靠中央補助他怎麼過日子他只能每天在這邊吵吵吵然後喊窮然後靠著中央給他們的憐憫給他多點錢25到27%的自籌款的比例不是一個健全的財政部長你的看法勒"},{"start":540.64,"end":566.314,"text":"是,委員您說的這個就是涉及到水平分配也就是說我們現在就是在努力水平分配這一塊把差距一直縮小然後讓它共識為更大這就是目前來說分配公式上大家感覺到不均的這個部分所以我們努力的是這一塊過往修法為什麼沒有能夠完成就是因為這一塊的分配始終沒有共識我希望你把你做的這個事情把它入法"},{"start":566.954,"end":569.236,"text":"收支劃分法修正草案．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法．一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":588.248,"end":606.502,"text":"在財政禮拜三我想總召委這邊也已經要舉辦公聽會其實我覺得可以大家再聽一聽各地方政府的意見以及專家學者們的意見因為我們不希望到時候行政院再說這個是沒有經過討論的沒有經過你們表示意見的到時候再說啊沒有討論然後內容你們不知道"},{"start":607.425,"end":630.278,"text":"我都沒有意見請你拿出來讓他入法你的基準、你的公式讓他入法我問了三個月我要看到你的版本我希望星期三我可以看到你的版本在我們審查的同時我可以看到你的版本好嗎?謝謝黃委員"}]}},{"id":"153469","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153469","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2dd358c888e2c7072b58b80bf5bfcde259c493b59145da8fe7a5eaa3f1fb9be25d4a1a3e9aecef3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"13:05:14 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