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來 警政署謝謝司長 我想警政署在這邊再做補充比如說我們創意私房它裡面有20萬片其實我們在整個偵查作為當中兒少性剝削絕對是用最高規格跟最高標準也是第一優先要去辨識這樣子的被害人但是確實它有些辨識它其實會有一些需要時間"},{"start":2797.81,"end":2825.969,"text":"就像剛剛司長所說的我們可能第一時間當了解這個確實是兒少的性影像的時候會要第一時間要先做下架的動作但是有一些我們可能在即時還沒有辦法去辨識被害人的時候他絕對是後續要做犯罪偵查也是優先的事項這個是其實要跟委員說明的尤其是兒少這個性影像的部分絕對是我們優先跟第一時間會去處理的"},{"start":2828.991,"end":2853.326,"text":"好 來 林委員因為我剛剛提到就是說因為跟後邊的第五條是有關聯性的就是說為什麼要建資料庫因為這條擺脫掉過去以往只有譬如說當初衛福部可能委託IWIN然後由我們的所謂申訴人去申訴我已經知道我自己被害所以我去申訴了"},{"start":2854.787,"end":2873.764,"text":"即便你用展示的他事實上是跟合作固定的網站去看說那或許值然後去交叉比對那也是我知道我自己是被害人了然後去做這樣那當初要建資料庫就是我覺得第五條很重要的在這邊是如果今天假設破獲了創意私房可是那裡邊有200個"},{"start":2875.385,"end":2904.039,"text":"那200個裡邊有時候身份辨別的確要時間那既然他要去做所謂的身份比對那表示警政署有這樣的工作所以我覺得本來就期待資料庫建在警政署的時候你既然就已經要做這個工作那我覺得前面在工作定義當中把它定義清楚有何不可呢因為被動跟主動不太一樣很多人都不知道自己受害我想各位應該去看6月3號報導者系列的報導寫出他們這些受害人的痛苦的時候你應該知道"},{"start":2905.202,"end":2932.895,"text":"他可能就我都知道我自己的片子我每天都要跑去iWIN去申訴我等下發現那個Telegram有等下我發現哪裡有的時候我要自己去跟如果今天破犯罪的時候把這些資料比對之後然後一一的去把這些資料不見得以後如果網路上有的話才可以去用展示的去做賀許值比對的時候讓很多網站事實上是不會再上架這才是真正的"},{"start":2934.095,"end":2961.966,"text":"鄭本清去解決問題所以我才會認為說第五條既然跟第三條有相關性的話應該在第三條就先把警政署的這個工作確定一下我想也只有增加幾個字而已不知道到底對警政署為什麼因為連第五條那時候我也是希望說比對我們的被害人的身份這邊也是沒有列入所以希望在第三條就已經列入確定的工作範圍第五條的話建的資料庫才有辦法民政"},{"start":2962.426,"end":2990.543,"text":"甚至是說你要做的工作是什麼以上好 來 警政署謝謝委員的指教我想因為確實它跟第五條有相關那請示一下就是說我們現在是要在這邊先做討論還是等進到第五條的時候我想我們行事局副局長也在現場他會做很完整的說明然後再回來看我們這個第二項的第五款的部分好"},{"start":2991.664,"end":3000.597,"text":"那第二項的部分有關於警政主管機關的部分就先保留好不好我們第三條就這個部分保留那剛剛教育動號主管機關那個就通過"},{"start":3004.448,"end":3022.19,"text":"好那我們來第五條第五條第一項我們把內政主管機關修正為中央警政主管機關那第二項第三項第四項就是剛才討論的要建立警察機關要建立這個被害人性影像的數位鑑識資料庫"},{"start":3023.581,"end":3043.802,"text":"以及資料庫的這個管理辦法以及對相關的處理這個兒少性剝削案件的司法人員要加強訓練來充實這個辦案的專業素養以上好那我們請警政署跟司法院分別表示意見來警政署"},{"start":3045.949,"end":3062.87,"text":"主席、各位委員、警政署報告首先感謝各位委員對遭性剝削條例查緝犯罪的一個支持那有關於在性偽像數位鑑識資料庫的部分這邊做一個說明就是說現在我們已經針對所有的"},{"start":3064.091,"end":3091.97,"text":"這些影像要必須都要以數位採證的程序來進行另外為便利在各司法檢查機關包含到地檢署、法院的部分由法部主導結合司法院、高檢署、調局跟警政署已經有建置一個數位的一個查扣平台從今年的4月1號開始有一個司法聯盟鏈的共同驗證平台那各司法機關的查扣的這個數位證物都必須上傳這個平台"},{"start":3093.951,"end":3117.743,"text":"另外,它可以確保它整個證據不受偽造及編造,也可以跟原先查扣的原始答案是相符的。那它在上傳影像的時候同時會,這相關的影像記錄以外,它同時會產生它的雜錯值。那這個雜錯值其實就可以讓我們未來的偵查哲學院,它如果有查扣類似的這些的一個"},{"start":3119.313,"end":3140.19,"text":"偶少性剝削的性向,他可以利用雜誌、厚紙跟原本的資料庫來做比對。所以這邊也要跟主席跟委員報告說,目前這因為新上線了,這是今年的事業要財新上線的這個資料庫,所以它是已經包含所有數位影像也包含偶少性剝削的影像,所以基本上他"},{"start":3141.372,"end":3156.065,"text":"應該不需要在另外建立一個專責的信箱出去,因為現在已經可用。那我們當然非常感謝委員能夠提查我們警察後續這段要去確認到底這個影像之前有沒有幫過,那也可以"},{"start":3156.785,"end":3176.636,"text":"減少不要人的檢數的相關作業但現在這個已經有這個司法聯盟內的數位影像這個監視平台的話它就已經有這個功能所以我們建議在第五條的第二項第三項的部分是否可以不予爭辯因為目前就已經可以達到這個功能以上所以警政署意思是說資料庫就是不用在這一個條例裡面"},{"start":3185.051,"end":3212.367,"text":"再去增設,你們現在已經有現有的,涵蓋春日跟兒少的所有的信項,而且是各司法機關,包含警察機關都可以共同運用這個司法聯盟連這個平台來去做相關的一個上傳跟相關的一個比對好,那接下來我們請司法院委員,對於第五條的部分,我們對衛不衛的版本沒有意見好"},{"start":3213.965,"end":3239.847,"text":"司法院沒有意見。好,那針對剛剛警政署的意見,各位他們有什麼看法?好,來,另外一位人。呃,我不知道剛剛警政署這樣回答,可是在我知道的第一線,有去了解的話,並沒有這樣,所以我不知道說你跟我談的,我跟你談有沒有一樣。可是當時事實上是,我有建議要設這個資料庫,所以後來你們大概也列入了,今天又突然講說,"},{"start":3240.868,"end":3242.95,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":3262.043,"end":3282.03,"text":"第三條的第二項的第五款裡邊要針對於被害人的那個身份識別的這要加進去所以本來是建議你是說你的在這第二項裡邊未辦理本法第二條第一項第三款的性剝削我這邊還本來我有寫的就是希望能夠有寫"},{"start":3283.55,"end":3305.125,"text":"新剝削行為之被害人身份識別頓號才是犯罪偵查那在後邊本來你們上次提出來的版本喔你們自己提出來版本本來有寫這個還有寫並利用在第二項後端還有寫並利用該項資料庫來協助犯罪偵查我想說這次我只是要再加一個幾筆對"},{"start":3306.726,"end":3328.357,"text":"淺在被害人才能夠回應我當初已經是跟現場的警員跟IWIN這些很多團體討論出來的東西結果你現在反而連這全部都要拿掉我甚至希望因為原本期待是要達到這兩個功能的那時候你要濃縮這樣子那再把幾個字眼加上去而不是全部刪除這也是不一定去提出來的版本"},{"start":3329.83,"end":3355.578,"text":"那因為這個很重要的是這次我如果真的破獲了200個那可是我沒有辦法第一時間比對可是比對有些是未成年人因為這很多牽扯到就是形體上還有有沒有學號或者是他的特徵上那有些真的是上次比對出來可是有些可能下一次破獲的時候為什麼要這個資料庫我在北中南東的各地的警察局裡面"},{"start":3356.218,"end":3377.052,"text":"我破獲我的我破獲你的然後沒有辦法去集中去把資料放在一起的時候去做一些瞭解或者是說未來有再有的時候再又拿進來去做比對所以比較希望有這樣的資料庫那既然如果有那寫上去又有什麼問題咧所以我還是非常堅持這一點一定要入法以上好來警政署請說明"},{"start":3381.929,"end":3402.603,"text":"非常謝謝委員對於我們地方偵查同仁在這偵辦上可以讓他們可以更加檢疫不過可能因為這司法聯盟是近年4月1號才上線使用那我們各地的偵查院可能在之前在跟委員報告的時候是他們還沒獲得最新的資訊所以不了解這個"},{"start":3404.95,"end":3424.55,"text":"司法聯盟內的這個數位的鑑識平台是怎麼去運用的那所以說這可能有一點點資訊上的一個落差那如果是說委員認為說我們還是一定要去做影像比對的話警政組這邊也建議提出文字修正"},{"start":3426.252,"end":3449.691,"text":"我這邊報告一下我們建議在第二項跟第三項可以整併為為辦理本法第二條第一項第三款性剝削行為之犯罪偵查警察機關得運用數位影像、證物轉碼、比對或其他技術確認查獲之被害人性影像是否屬於前案被害人以減少被害人重複陳述就是說我們還是會去做這部分的一個比對"},{"start":3451.012,"end":3475.829,"text":"的方式那資料庫部分已經目前就已經建置了建議就不用再重複建置那但是我們也是可以去在這個條文上授予警察機關運用這些數位影像的專馬比對或其他技術因為未來可能還有更新技術我們把預留一個保留空間所以或其他技術來確認是否影像是屬於前代備案人的部分"},{"start":3481.277,"end":3484.362,"text":"專責單位,也就是這樣的經驗才會累積,否則的話,質資料庫誰拿去比對?不是,上次破獲台北市的N號房,類似韓國的N號房,"},{"start":3496.036,"end":3516.626,"text":"那些警員們他們過去做的這些經驗值他們累積去比對的時候速度是比較快像想當初黃子佼為什麼很快的可以知道說有七個是未成年也是因為他們前面有查臺北深圳N號房的經驗才有辦法第一時間再去看黃子佼他們下載這些影片哪一些是他曾經過去看過的"},{"start":3517.987,"end":3546.582,"text":"那這個為什麼要專責單位專責單位才去可以累積經驗所以不是不要忽略掉我這邊講的我這邊要的是專責單位來做這件事情所以可能沒有辦法說你講說你們之前有見的可是還是要專人去否則不會現在很多像艾文也是求助於過去在辦這個案子的警員來讓他們如果收到影片的時候以他們過去看的經驗裡面去做核對因為看過有印象大概時間上比較快所以我"},{"start":3547.142,"end":3552.617,"text":"我覺得這邊我要的事實上是專責單位然後來主辦這個性影像資料庫因為"},{"start":3555.134,"end":3581.976,"text":"我還是要講這個傷害真的很大所以我覺得如果今天我們只看重罰則我根本抓不到人因為第一個我就不知道我是受害者第二個事實上是我如果事實上是加害人我也不會來等你抓到我否則創意私房不會在台灣十幾年觸感空間也不會在台灣七八年那為什麼如果你之前有見的話那為什麼這麼多年都沒有辦法去處理這些事情"},{"start":3587.445,"end":3602.377,"text":"主席、各位委員,有關於剛剛委員所提到的專責單位,事實上我們在針對這個新影像這些的影像的檔案或是它的網站的部分,我們目前已經有,其實有針灸大隊,它屬於"},{"start":3606.767,"end":3633.801,"text":"針對於電腦犯罪偵查的一個專責單位當然它不僅限於信義項包含我們最近看到的這些在線路上的那些賣票黃牛這屬於電腦偵查犯罪的部分都是我們徵友大隊在負責偵辦那有關於委員剛所提到的創意私訪到後來還有衍生的部分其實我們也都在持續偵辦當中個案我就不做一個報告"},{"start":3635.382,"end":3647.727,"text":"有專責單位在處理電腦犯罪這一塊但他不僅局限在只有做性影像這一塊所以我們確實有專責單位一直在處理電腦犯罪相關事務這邊做個報告"},{"start":3650.114,"end":3666.472,"text":"好,我們請范雲委員,再來陳培宇委員好,謝謝喔這一條,就是第五條,我們在委員會的時候,我當時就有發言支持過林月琴委員的版本就是這個,我們很多的民間團體、婦女團體都希望有現象的資料庫"},{"start":3667.393,"end":3688.289,"text":"我記得當時我們委員會審查的時候其實蠻多跨黨派的委員都認同要做這樣的資料庫那其實我們也從國外的辦案經驗來看的話檢警這邊如果能夠建立兒少性向的大資料庫那從扣案畫面透過分析一方面溯源抓製造散播也可以多重比對發現被害人"},{"start":3688.949,"end":3689.51,"text":"主動出席"},{"start":3718.769,"end":3741.789,"text":"不能夠以我們委員的多數意見為主這樣好主席謝謝主席好謝謝主席因為我我們還蠻好奇的齁在工作的順序上因為衛福部這個版本已經列上來了嘛但是說實話我們剛剛幾個委員私下討論我們聽到警政署突然這樣的發言我們也是想說欸是要翻衛福部的版本嗎"},{"start":3742.429,"end":3771.565,"text":"好,所以是不是等一下請衛福部表達一下意見那除了剛剛兩位委員所說的之外我們真的要再一次強調我們多年從事兒少工作發現近年來有一個很大的困境現場如果你有很多人你自己是爸爸媽媽或是你家裡的親戚有人是小孩的這幾年小孩在數位媒體的使用上有非常多情況是自己不知不覺就掉入讓自己成為那個數位性剝削影像的對象"},{"start":3772.325,"end":3787.773,"text":"而在這個不知不覺的情況下不管是透過教育宣導、透過很多的說明或是透過很多的傳播讓孩子們知道你現在就處在這個危險當中所以我認為專責單位並且加上相關資料庫這件事情的意義非常重大"},{"start":3788.593,"end":3807.342,"text":"如果在這麼多海量的資料當中我們硬要把它跟原本你們所說的資料庫扣在一起那我們專門保護兒少的意義又在哪裡?所以這個部分我們還是要拜託衛福部是不是也可以表達一下立場就你們自己在現場跟兒少互動的觀察或是相關的專家學者的建議那我要再次強調不僅是報導者那個報導出來才讓我們看見問題"},{"start":3811.224,"end":3827.071,"text":"過往我們辦公室在幫助很多個案陳情在關於這個兒童數學性剝削的案例上有很多時候孩子是不知道自己已經掉入那個困境當中他們甚且不敢告訴家長不敢告訴老師持續的被相關的加害者威脅的這個狀況"},{"start":3828.732,"end":3846.324,"text":"如果我們在這件事情上沒有更積極的作為我要談的是更積極的作為去應對這件事情我會覺得今天大家坐在這裡談論這件事情實在是有違這些我們都花這麼多力氣討論的部分所以是不是可以請衛福部回應一下警政組之前有告訴你們他們今天要做這樣的調整嗎?謝謝"},{"start":3848.847,"end":3868.914,"text":"陳靜蕙委員首先我先稱讚一下衛福部因為他今天有把每一個部門要做什麼事情而且拉近數位發展部這一點我覺得很好但是他上面寫定期要有一個公佈並檢討假使你可以把定期定出比如說一年或是半年那你可以出版一個報告這樣子我們"},{"start":3869.534,"end":3880.56,"text":"委員就不用忙忙上網找你們公布的這些因為現在在衛福部保護司上面的這些宣導教材、向陽儲局專書幾乎都是107、108、109年的已經很過時了"},{"start":3885.823,"end":3900.993,"text":"那再來呢當然就針對資料庫的部分要呼應林月琴委員的意見那也希望說可以回到上次我們朝野立委都希望可以修改的部分因為這個在美國已經行之有年而且他們利用"},{"start":3901.673,"end":3902.554,"text":"沈淑慧、沈淑慧、沈淑慧"},{"start":3924.61,"end":3926.372,"text":"等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":3936.564,"end":3956.396,"text":"好謝謝還有其他委員要發言嗎若沒有我們先請衛福部回應好謝謝委員針對這個陳培宇委員剛才所詢問的這個第五條第二項第三項這個內容是先前跟警政署討論的這個文字那剛剛在會上刑事局副長"},{"start":3957.356,"end":3972.864,"text":"報告的這個司法聯盟數位鑑識運用平臺也是第一次聽到那所以因此我們你的文字跟他們目前實際運作的狀況有一些落差那這個落差我們也覺得這個很混淆因此就說明我們過去的討論一直沒有那個司法聯盟數位鑑識運用平臺以上"},{"start":3988.257,"end":4016.911,"text":"那警政署要不要補充主席跟各位委員有關於專責人員的部分事實上在婦幼保護這一塊警政署一直有專責的人員在承辦這部分像各縣市都有警察局都有婦幼警察隊我們署也有防制署跟刑事局的預防課這邊也是承辦相關業務在屬於這些可能涉及到數位的影像的部分我們也有"},{"start":4018.011,"end":4045.437,"text":"科技偵查隊在負責這一塊所以都有專責人員在去處理這塊這先跟人做一個報告跟說明再來就是有關於性影像這部分的一個數位鑑識資料庫的部分是我這邊最主要報告說現在已經有一個司法聯盟列的一個資料庫在那個地方我們是否需要再把它再獨立再建立一個獨特的一個資料庫因為那個資料庫其實也可以達到這個功能所以"},{"start":4046.937,"end":4075.688,"text":"警政署這邊最主要是要表達說這個東西目前已經有這套的一個系統可以去運用而且它也不僅是警察機關運用包含在地檢、高檢、司法院都可以同樣運用這套系統所以在這邊當然這相關的訊息沒有即時提供也是我們算是我們沒有主動再跟衛福部來做說明報告所以他們可能不瞭解說有最新的這套系統目前已經在運用以上"},{"start":4078.083,"end":4080.443,"text":"好,那個先審柏洋委員,再林玥琴委員"},{"start":4081.717,"end":4110.517,"text":"我的建議就是按照布版通過因為其實按照剛剛保護司的講法已經有跟警政署討論過嘛這是第一個第二個就是按照文字它是指定或設立它可以指定嘛所以如果說本來就已經有單位在做你也可以用指定本來的單位在做這件事情啊如果今天本來的那個剛剛講的這個資料庫也包含信凝像數位資料庫的話這是可以涵蓋在裡面的資料庫如果說要做一個切割出來這個應該並不會有那麼大的困難啊所以我還是覺得說就是是不是按照布版的這一個條文通過"},{"start":4111.557,"end":4122.755,"text":"我覺得是因為現在都已經溝通過了那在這邊如果突然畢竟這個文字來講它有指定啦如果沒有指定是要設立的話可能會造成很多的困擾但是如果有指定的話其實對警政機關來講應該不會太麻煩才對這我的意見好另外一位"},{"start":4127.922,"end":4144.714,"text":"上次在委員會就已經討論也是各委員很同意我當初提出來版本而且警政署自己也拿一個這樣的版本就跟今天布版的事實上是一樣的我就不知道為什麼"},{"start":4145.655,"end":4174.021,"text":"不是按照當初警政署當初你也拿出來給我的版本這樣這是第一個第二個是你剛剛提的平台沒有一個人知道那我們讓我們更擔心突然來已經有前面委員會你自己提出來版本今天不版的也有這然後突然講說我有這個那為什麼大家都不知道否則等一下是不是可以解釋告訴我們那個到底存在是什麼我們從來大家都沒看過這樣的東西當然我們就有擔憂還有如果那個東西如果真的好用也針對於兒少性剝削有作我還是要講"},{"start":4175.181,"end":4195.639,"text":"為什麼創意私房跟觸感空間,然後現在台灣人也是很多齁,那我們都還是沒有辦法去做有更有效能的,畢竟他一定沒有特別針對我們想要達到的目標,我覺得我要再重申。第三個我還是要建議,除了要同意不版以外,我還是"},{"start":4196.319,"end":4196.64,"text":"警政署"},{"start":4223.019,"end":4250.595,"text":"這部分社會聯盟鏈可能因為我們偵查機關比較常在用因為4月1號才上線所以可能其他機關並不了解這個當時運用的一個存在這邊做個說明另外就是說當然我有提到說可以以執行的方式讓現在既有的單位存在的部分來去做一個處理這我們都尊重"},{"start":4254.878,"end":4274.187,"text":"那另外一個就是要跟委員報告就是說相關影像裡面的被害人的辨識其實並不容易因為我們目前要去從影像中就可以辨識出到底是這個人是什麼人我們並沒有我們現在沒有運用所謂的人靈辨識系統去做處理"},{"start":4274.787,"end":4301.039,"text":"所以說大概我們都要透過種種偵查方法才能夠去確認找到被害人所以其實他並不是那麼容易這是一個事實就如果我們很多偵查犯罪我們在入口拍攝到或是駐載他本身的自己的監視器有可能拍攝到犯罪嫌疑人我們是要經過非常多的努力才可能去辨識到這個犯罪嫌疑人那也有一些是無法辨識出來的所以說我們如果"},{"start":4302.339,"end":4314.931,"text":"現在光從這些性剝削的影像裡面,我們企圖去辨識被害人,當然這是我們警察機關一定會盡一切努力去做辨識,但我在委員會這邊也要說明報告,他並不容易,以上。來,那個范雲委員。"},{"start":4320.376,"end":4348.226,"text":"我想我們上次委員會的審查其實都有委員包含我自己也有講過就是我們警政署如果以現在的資訊或者知識來講的話會覺得很難可是就是說很多相關的專家都告訴我們說警方查扣的性影像可以用軟體生成雜湊值這個軟體要錢那到時候可能速發布也許就可以來協助那將來如果在網路上發現性影像可以直接使用那個軟體生成的雜湊值比對"},{"start":4350.327,"end":4369.375,"text":"所以最短的時間就能夠知道被害人是誰而且協助移除影像那這個雜措值其實不是原始的性影像而是一連串的數值它也可以避免實際影像外流也方便網路平臺不再把那個影像刊登上網那第三個就剛剛第一個其實有這個能力下架雜措值"},{"start":4369.895,"end":4394.382,"text":"他可以減少被害人陳述那現狀就是說其實有時候被害人到不同縣市的時候那其實這中間他還要再去找相關的檢警單位再次詢問的話會造成再次傷害那現在網路時代如果你有這樣子一個資料庫的話有時候被害人他外流影像是到其他縣市的嫌疑人刊登的時候那被害人也不用親自跑到那個外縣市"},{"start":4395.682,"end":4410.881,"text":"最後一個就是嫌犯的比對、製作模式及犯嫌的影像讓侵犯人員都能夠提供給被害人比對而不是只是身份證影像的比對所以這其實是相關的專家都有提供的意見"},{"start":4412.582,"end":4432.359,"text":"據說布版的部分,那我是又支持我們林院行委員還有多的布版沒有的文字,我們是希望多能夠放入,我想這部分其實沒有什麼黨派立場,大家就是從受害者的角度來思考,如何能夠讓我們的這個性向的問題解決,那跟現在的高科技能夠結合,以上謝謝。"},{"start":4434.041,"end":4434.862,"text":"陳佩玉衛福部"},{"start":4451.34,"end":4478.267,"text":"我們是不是可以休息下來,你們跟我們說明,或者是給我們看相關資料。是,那個我先檢調說明一下,委員在看區域要暫停說明。就是說,司法聯盟文件裡面,它上傳一項也會產生雜湊值,所以雜湊值的部分就可以逐公比對。那當然對於這個也算一個新上線的東西,可能我們在座很多的委員,包括我們各單位可能不是很清楚。"},{"start":4479.827,"end":4501.525,"text":"再就是說,如果委員覺得第五條的第二項、第三項,它還是有新增訂的必要的話,我們覺得我們也尊重。所以是可以了。所以你們文字是同意布版嗎?我們就同意。同意布版嗎?好。"},{"start":4505.99,"end":4525.856,"text":"就再加幾個字就是原來的我這邊建議在性剝削就是在第二項這邊未辦理本法第二條例項第三款性剝削之被害人身份識別頓號然後犯罪偵查再來後邊這個資料庫你在這邊資料庫裡邊"},{"start":4530.757,"end":4542.655,"text":"逗號並利用該資料及筆對潛在被害人以上來,警政署表示以前"},{"start":4544.009,"end":4570.524,"text":"檢驗室表示意見,就是針對這個原條文通過的,我們覺得在現有制度,雖然有不同樣的機關在運作,也可以列入到指定的機關,剛委員已經有陳述過了,所以我們覺得這可以納入。另外,新增的辨識是所有機關都可以辨識,不是只有警察,所以把它列入專責到警察的話,我覺得不必要。"},{"start":4571.284,"end":4581.176,"text":"這本來就應該大家都可以做不是只有警察做所以我們覺得說那另外而增添的一些文字是不必要的以上說明"},{"start":4581.874,"end":4603.574,"text":"好,謝謝警政署。好,那我就交各位委員意見。那個,第一個是那個,剛剛,醫師同仁有提醒,他說未辦理本法,應該是不是改成本條例?就因為這是條例嘛,所以這邊先做修正。那另外一個就是,現在就是兩個案子,一個就是完全按照"},{"start":4605.496,"end":4625.222,"text":"衛福部的這個版本就修正通過那另外一個是林玉琴委員她有提出文字修正我們是不是就這兩個來表示意見好不好那警政署是建議不用再爭你們是同意衛福部的版本嗎就按衛福部的版本通過那是不是委員們"},{"start":4626.162,"end":4654.882,"text":"再表示意見,如果大家有共識,我想我們就是就可以通過,好不好?剛剛沈委員好像是尊重衛福部的版本嗎?對,我只是講說,如果說這邊如果還有爭議的話,因為月請委員最早是辨識嘛,那如果說,譬如說假設剛剛有講到辨識不容易做或自愛難行,那如果說要協調的話,是不是改成譬如說是可供辨識的數位監視資料庫,那這樣的話,你們在技術的發展上面做得越好,那這條就越能做嘛。"},{"start":4655.402,"end":4683.563,"text":"但是可供辨識這件事情並不會讓一開始造成摯愛難行所以我說如果要折衷的話看要怎麼做好來林委員還有洪孟楷委員期待事實上因為我覺得他工作不是只有犯罪偵查因為有時候第一時間還沒有辦法偵查犯罪可是這資料庫要存下來是未來有一個我覺得很重要就比對潛在的被害人"},{"start":4684.283,"end":4702.511,"text":"這是過去在處理所謂我說剛剛講臺北市N號房的那種狀況裏面後來還去核對到黃子佼案的那個7個未成年受害人所以我才會認為說這個工作把它列下去我不知道說到底對警政署到底有什麼樣的一個困難就是加這幾個字以上"},{"start":4703.696,"end":4704.197,"text":"洪孟楷委員"},{"start":4722.772,"end":4746.855,"text":"衛福部提出的這個版本裡面其實我發覺跟林玥琴委員有一個很大的一個差別在於是第二項性影像資料庫的管理、儲存、運用、使用辦法林玥琴委員版本是希望主管機關跟內政部來定制但是在我們這個衛福部提出來是由中央警政主管機關定制等於是直接丟給中央主管機關所以其實如果說真的要有這種"},{"start":4748.356,"end":4774.83,"text":"譬如說對未來犯罪的一個預防的程度的話其實如果以部的版就是衛福部提出來這版本但是前項資料庫內容儲存管理及使用辦法可由衛福部跟警政主管機關來定制讓衛福部在這個上面也有加入角色那也才不會說剛剛突然間我們聽到說這個警政署相關單位講說4月1號已經有這個資料庫了結果其他部會大家都不清楚"},{"start":4776.004,"end":4805.127,"text":"我覺得這樣子是不是會比較嚴謹那也可以符合我們現在各委員都期待的一個立法的一個需求因為現在看起來當然布的版本也許他的條文以及用字會是相對比較精準那只是說在這個資料庫到底儲存管理使用辦法是未來要怎麼樣去使用而且這個使用一定是去標籤化或甚至是說不是一個真實的一個影像來去使用"},{"start":4805.928,"end":4828.084,"text":"那這樣的一定會有相關的一些這個科技的技術所以我才在講說不是說只是警政主管機關自己去處理這樣的東西而是加入衛福部因為衛福部還是這一部法律的一個主管機關嘛以上做這樣的一個建議看大家是不是如果說可以的話是不是能夠用這樣的一個方向那我們就可以第五條再繼續往下走好不好"},{"start":4829.534,"end":4849.749,"text":"好,那這個修法的部分那個法務部那個翁參事這邊法務部有沒有什麼意見就是說要採取什麼樣的版本什麼樣的文字法務部是提供一下意見委員好,我們原則上我們是尊重衛福部所建立的這個版本我們認為是可行好,所以你們也同意衛福部的版本嗎好,那"},{"start":4852.931,"end":4871.191,"text":"還有不同意見嗎?來,范委員我是覺得剛剛那個洪孟楷委員跟沈博洋委員有一個稍微能夠綜合越情委員的版本的文字那部分就是說如果衛福部不反對警政體系也不反對的話其實納入其實讓他空間稍微大一點不知道是不是有可能"},{"start":4876.113,"end":4884.324,"text":"如果不要寫的話,那我大概就是用附帶的決議,否則就是要請你們文字上怎麼去表示我要的東西是不是可以放進去?"},{"start":4886.741,"end":4905.721,"text":"好,那這樣好不好,有沒有可能是,如果林委員也不堅持一定要放入可以用附帶決議的話,那是不是,我建議就是用衛福部的版本,然後加附帶決議通過好不好,因為法務部也贊成衛福部的版本嘛,這個是修法體力的問題。"},{"start":4908.001,"end":4934.369,"text":"警政署也同意,衛福部部職也提這個版本,主管局都同意。那委員對這個版本其實意見也不大,一開始大家很反彈是說要刪,那現在如果是維持這個版本大家可接受,那林委員也可以接受用附帶決議再來表明,好不好?那附帶決議就林委員再提,好不好?那如果這樣子的話,那我們就是修正兩個字,就是本法改成那個條例,對。"},{"start":4936.758,"end":4943.652,"text":"然後按衛福部修正過後的這個版本通過然後再請林月琴委員再提附帶決議好謝謝大家來接下來第八條"},{"start":4948.243,"end":4972.245,"text":"第八條第一項將24小時限制瀏覽,然後把24小時直接載明。那在第四項現影像處理中心得知之後要通知網路業者、警察機關跟中央主管機關。那第五項、第六項、第七項都是在中央主管機關收到現影像處理中心的通知之後要做的工作,包括"},{"start":4972.825,"end":4990.967,"text":"要這個載明相關事項以及做行政處分。行政處分要記載的事項都在這個第七項的內容裡頭所說明。以上。好,那就叫各位委員針對衛福部提出來的版本還有沒有不同意見。好,來,范雲委員。"},{"start":4992.58,"end":5007.208,"text":"這個第八條他是有幾個部分一個就是修正保存犯罪網頁到一年另外還有就是網路業者應該要設置被害人身屬管道還有一個是國際形式的司法互助那上次我們卡的部分是我希望"},{"start":5007.628,"end":5008.929,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":5024.005,"end":5040.37,"text":"反而跑到別的管道去了沒有辦法最快來性影像處理中心我們上次卡在這裡所以保留後來也謝謝衛福部這邊有很積極的溝通有跟婦女團體、辦公室也了解到後來大家覺得這個部分的確是"},{"start":5044.432,"end":5054.067,"text":"就更有效率的話,那我們就以衛福部這個版本為主,所以我就不保留了,那看其他我也還沒意見好不好,就用衛福部的版本。好,謝謝。"},{"start":5057.624,"end":5082.504,"text":"陳秦輝委員上次還有討論到底是保留180天或者是一年我是主張保留一年而且只是保留犯罪的網頁資料還有嫌疑人的資料還有嫌疑人使用網路的記錄當天警政委員賈樂吉他是呼應他覺得延長的話對於後續很多案件都是一定有幫助的"},{"start":5084.725,"end":5107.674,"text":"當時衛福部是說因為站在業者的角度所以他們是沒有辦法保留一年可是如果去跟業者溝通我們只留並不是留他當時是說留全部的資料他們的資料庫會不夠可是我們只留犯罪的網頁資料、嫌疑人資料、嫌疑人使用網路記錄我覺得這樣子應該是夠的我們要站在被害人的角度因為其他國家都做得到啊好那這部分是衛福部可以說明一下"},{"start":5113.419,"end":5127.645,"text":"一百八十天早在一、二年以前是九十天那在一、二年修的時候也是跟相關的部會還有網路業者做了很多的共識那達成一百八十天這樣的一個"},{"start":5129.426,"end":5131.648,"text":"等19人等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":5150.233,"end":5170.133,"text":"范委員我剛剛漏講一個就是我之前的版本還有一個就是如果知道有犯罪嫌疑情勢的話應於24小時內先行限制瀏覽或移除那因為本來其實衛福部是放在執法當中但我希望放在母法裡面上次衛福部好像沒有同意"},{"start":5170.393,"end":5185.683,"text":"但是這一次衛福部的版本已經有這個24小時了那我想要表達肯定我想這樣非常好因為這個時效寫在母法裡面的話那能夠更有效力也讓被害者知道他相關的權益所以針對這點我要表達肯定好那針對保存的天數警政署要表示意見嗎民事尊重衛福部版"},{"start":5200.222,"end":5207.739,"text":"你們是尊重衛福部本那請問各位委員針對第八條還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":5212.244,"end":5238.979,"text":"好 如果沒有其他意見那是保存天數的部分剛剛衛福部有說明就是說還涉及到還要再進一步去跟相關的業者再溝通討論那目前180天是有共識的是可執行的是不是我們先開始好 那希望衛福部之後看可不可以跟業者溝通我們就只保留犯罪相關的就好因為之前業者說做不到是因為他們必須保留全部的網路紀錄對嗎 對吧"},{"start":5243.4,"end":5261.915,"text":"就是現行文字上面的這些內容。好,那我們今天就是先通過第八條,先180天,但是剛剛陳菁媛委員提醒的,如果其他國家其實比我們做得更好,一年都不是問題的話,那這是衛福部的功課好不好,持續再去溝通。"},{"start":5263.39,"end":5272.982,"text":"好,那陳委員這樣可以嗎?先通過第八條?好,可以可以好,那謝謝各位委員,那我們第八條就按衛福部建議修正的條文通過"},{"start":5274.386,"end":5298.112,"text":"那接下來呢從第32條開始一直到第41條之一這一些其實都是跟司法機關有關都是加重刑者的條文那但是在委員會討論的時候司法機關其實都沒有同意那今天書面資料有一個是刑法"},{"start":5299.525,"end":5318.932,"text":"刑法級距的配置表,這應該是司法機關提供的,那法務部,好啦,謝謝法務部,那是不是這個部分請法務部一併說明好不好,就是因為在委員會好像所有委員要加重的,大家其實都是不贊成的,所以都是保留,那今天有提供這一個"},{"start":5320.493,"end":5336.926,"text":"刑法的那個集聚配置表那是不是就是法務部王參事跟大家說明一下好不好是謝謝昭偉跟各位委員那本部在應該是上個禮拜就把這個現行刑法刑法集聚配置表"},{"start":5337.486,"end":5354.45,"text":"有呃有送交到委員會每一個委員的手上吼那呃今天我們就這個呃有關刑罰級距呃我們該怎麼定這個法定刑度我們保護部的考量跟大家做一個報告說明吼那我們可以分這個呃實體面的"},{"start":5356.411,"end":5374.677,"text":"法應橫憑及罪責相當這兩大塊先跟大家說明,就是說我們現行的刑事處罰的法制根本大法,大家都知道是刑法。那刑法透過各個罪的處罰的規定,皆是保護法役,有國家法役、社會法役跟個人法役。個人法役我們包含生命、身體、自由財產這四大類。"},{"start":5376.838,"end":5404.042,"text":"刑法所規定的即刑就是死刑跟無期徒刑那請各位參考我們給各位的這個刑法集據配置表大家可以看到我們刑法規定死刑無期徒刑跟個人法益相關的罪名只有四個就是強制性交故殺被害人罪還有強盜故意殺人罪海盜故意殺人罪還有擄人勒贖故意殺人罪我們都有用紅筆給大家看"},{"start":5405.083,"end":5427.726,"text":"那所以刑法是以這個即刑的部分為上限在依序就各個法役還有行為的手段來排序各罪的法定刑度其他的刑事處罰規定也是以刑法為比較基礎那以各該保護的法役還有行為手段來排序各個罪的法定刑度所以我們所有的法"},{"start":5428.166,"end":5429.027,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":5445.476,"end":5472.474,"text":"四大類型,一個就是兒少性交易,還有第二個就是工人關攬兒少性交貨猥褻,還有一個就是兒少性因圖畫物品的製造跟流傳散佈,那第四個就是兒少性色情的陪侍。那跟刑法相關的罪章,大家可以看到我們就是跟防害性自主罪章,還有防害風化罪章,防害性隱私及不實性影像的罪章,還有防害秘密罪章,"},{"start":5473.534,"end":5490.492,"text":"四個罪章是相關的那另外如果是行為人故意對兒少犯刑法各章的罪的時候我們另外是以兒少福利與權益保障法的112條第一項規定是加重期刑到二分之一所以我們在法議橫評"},{"start":5491.913,"end":5520.251,"text":"還有罪責相當的每一個法條來比較來看的時候,其實去年一、就是去年二月在修法的時候,我們為了配合刑法徵定性影像的定義,還有防害性隱私跟不實性影像的罪章,再參照我們剛剛跟大家提到的我們每個刑法相關罪章保護法益行為手段,刑度的設計跟兒權法一一二條第一項的規定,我們是有全面的盤整過這個兒少性剝削防制條例的相關罪責的刑度啦。"},{"start":5522.518,"end":5536.566,"text":"為了落實我們這個立法目的,我們原來其實無正當理由持有兒少性影像,還有無正當理由關攬兒少性影像及猥褻行為本來是行政罰而已,後來去年是改為刑罰,那這個部分的修法"},{"start":5539.568,"end":5562.539,"text":"去年那時候也是行政院有多次召開跨部會的研商會議那各部會也有共識才通過院會提到立法院經過委員審議的那當然這個原來我們是屬於行政裁罰的無正當理由持有兒少性影像跟無正當理由關懶兒少性影像的刑罰化那時候定的刑度現在看起來似乎有比較低"},{"start":5563.519,"end":5581.633,"text":"那可是當時是考量整體的社會風氣還有大家的對這個這種形態的法治意識那也有參著各國的立法例那我們那時候是參採法定刑度比較低的日本立法例那現在再來看我們認為是不是還可以再商議當然這點我們也認為應該是可以有在研求的地方"},{"start":5588.438,"end":5610.966,"text":"所以我們認為去年在修的時候其實每個刑度已經提的基本上已經是比他的法定刑度已經比刑法高了那我相信很多委員提的版本很多都希望能夠再提高再提高把罪輕本行再提高但是這個部分呢剛剛我們已經跟各位報告這個刑度設計有沒有符合法議橫評跟罪責相當性"},{"start":5613.587,"end":5640.685,"text":"跟各位報告因為刑事訴訟法我們知道當然除了是要對犯罪人追究刑責施以刑罰之外我們這個刑事訴訟法最主要的目的還有還有其他的部分一個就是要讓司法資源有效的運用那還有填補被害人的損害另外就是有利被告跟犯罪嫌疑人的再社會化還有犯罪的特別預防這些目的所以緩起訴處分這個制度是非常是非常需要"},{"start":5641.305,"end":5650.688,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19"},{"start":5669.253,"end":5694.892,"text":"所以像黃子驕這件案件雖然他緩起訴引起輿論有一些反彈但是這個部分我們還是有檢察官還是可以依職權送在意那後來還是有再發揮再重新再處理所以對於檢察官所為的緩起訴處分刑事訴論法其實是有相當的審核救濟機制來確保緩起訴處分的妥適性所以如果說委員們的提案提高是為了要"},{"start":5695.712,"end":5697.853,"text":"蔡易餘等17人、委員蔡易餘等17人、委員"},{"start":5720.639,"end":5742.647,"text":"賈官沒有緩起訴處分的權限會有什麼樣的狀況?上次也有一些案例司法院廳長也有跟大家說到一些案例比如說現在臺中有一個高職的學生他們就是在住宿然後在洗澡的時候彼此拍攝那其實拍攝以後就好玩他並不一定是有性剝削的"},{"start":5743.267,"end":5744.709,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":5763.317,"end":5790.352,"text":"就是讓他們就是悔改自新那對於年輕人來講這個是這個是不是合宜的請可能委員們可以再多思考一下那另外實務上我們也有青少年因為觸犯而少性剝削條例的罪名移送法院地檢署的情形比如說也有桃家少女他們在桃家期間結交男朋友那男女交往期間分別透過男生去打零工女生就從"},{"start":5791.432,"end":5813.124,"text":"從事性交易謀生,逃家少女經過尋獲後,這個男友就有可能因為涉嫌兒童性剝削條例遭到移送。那像這樣的狀況,跟我們想要處罰很重刑的兒童性剝削的那種很可惡的犯行,是不是要等同一概的這樣子去處理?"},{"start":5814.765,"end":5842.724,"text":"如果說用重刑來排除假官就這種案件的緩起處分權限到底妥不妥當那也請委員們再思考一下那對於那種非常可惡的部分呢我跟各位報告就是說我們目前的偵查實務呢比如說台版N號房的情節重大的這種犯罪我們檢警都是在積極查緝這個犯罪集團的所有的共犯也會清查所有相關被害人查明他們的相關犯罪所得"},{"start":5844.045,"end":5852.712,"text":"他們的犯罪所查獲的行為罪數是可以加的所以一次犯一次其實那個罪名不會說應該是每一個行為都可以訴罪併罰是可以加的所以我們不見得是一種行為的刑度就拉得很高他們每一個罪數是可以累計加到我們就曾經也有"},{"start":5865.001,"end":5882.548,"text":"臺中的案件他們累計的刑度是可以有30年的並不是說他們這樣就會被輕判而且犯罪所得提高法院宣判的刑度跟沒收的金額也是可以看他們的這個行為樣態來累加那另外"},{"start":5884.323,"end":5907.159,"text":"我們在去年修法的時候其實已經把為無正當理由持有兒少性影像跟關懶兒少性影像刑罰化那這個部分我們是贊同我們這次衛福部提出的版本把它提高刑度這個部分法務部尊重衛福部提出的版本那其他的部分之前已經"},{"start":5908.26,"end":5925.558,"text":"通盤考量到的,我們就建議維持原來的這個刑度。那有關無正當理由持有跟無正當理由關懶的這個部分,我們建議就按照衛福部這次提高刑度的版本來做修正。以上。"},{"start":5927.54,"end":5955.063,"text":"好,謝謝法務部的說明那請問司法院有沒有補充說明是的,就是召委還有各位委員大家午安那剛剛法務部參事的那個說明我們大概是都這個原因也都贊成那對衛福部呢後來有稍微調高的這個行路我們也都沒有意見那我再補充一下就是我們稍後呢也會這個提供一份大概是從另外一個角度"},{"start":5955.503,"end":5957.725,"text":"本來就有一些是關於兒少保護的法則也就是說其實在"},{"start":5975.498,"end":5994.335,"text":"不同的法律裡頭對於這個保護兒少那應該是一個國家他一個社會的一個任務那刑法體系不論是普通刑法或者是特別刑法都不會因為這樣的去減少對兒少保護避免他受到這樣的一個性的剝削或者是其他的這樣兒權法一二條"},{"start":5996.056,"end":6013.654,"text":"的一個整個國家社會的一個加重的一個刑責。比如《兒權法》六書一二條它就是加重刑分二分之一。但這是一個分責的加重。那這份其實代表整個國家社會對兒少的保護。這個部分的一個不可一個懈怠的一個任務。現在我們已經把《兒權公約》已經"},{"start":6015.916,"end":6035.686,"text":"內閣法化多年。所以對於我們去依照這次的兒少性剝削防制條例31到38條的處罰,我們其實是對比整個的刑法的一個體系來看,似乎並沒有法定刑過輕的情形。也就是說,誠如剛剛參事說的,去年其實才修正,"},{"start":6036.266,"end":6036.847,"text":"等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":6053.268,"end":6054.649,"text":"等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":6074.482,"end":6090.467,"text":"等18人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19"},{"start":6103.911,"end":6126.266,"text":"然後一直到我們的這個刑法的一個就是231條比如說意圖使男女與他人為性交或猥褻行為而引誘容留或媒介以盈利罪那這個是五年以下那對比我們現在的這個條文的這樣一個我們其實是這個七年以下所以其實這個部分我們現行的條文其實並沒有過境的情形"},{"start":6126.826,"end":6149.778,"text":"那其他的個條我們大家都希望可以參考我們今天提出來的一個就是個條的一個對比性的一個意見也就整體來說目前的兒少性剝削其實在保護兒少不受性剝削的這樣一個性剝削防制的一個立法的特別的刑法當中其實並沒有就是說就是比較輕的這樣情形那我們還是必須要強調說即使是特別刑罰"},{"start":6152.679,"end":6174.488,"text":"那對於刑法目前的普通刑法裡面的刑法體系來看可能還是要去回到整個罪行相當這樣的一個可能性的一個思考那以上作為以上的補充謝謝好謝謝法務部跟司法院的一個說明那我們現在就來進行主條的討論好來我們第32條"},{"start":6182.04,"end":6199.516,"text":"剛剛司法院法務部的意見是不予爭定,對不對?好,維持原條文,那個請問各位有沒有意見?沒有意見齁?好,那我們就維持原條文,第33條也是維持原條文,各位有沒有意見?好,沒有意見,來,第36條"},{"start":6210.901,"end":6211.761,"text":"三十五條維持原條文"},{"start":6228.411,"end":6243.243,"text":"三十六條在第一項、第二項、第三項以及第七項增加重置這個文字另外在第一項的罰金部分定這個樓地板十萬元以上以上好來那個洪孟楷委員請"},{"start":6248.315,"end":6262.027,"text":"在36條的這個部分我想這個佈板的這個狀況就包括說重置跟10萬元以上這個本席是尊重但是我看到幾個委員提案的版本我覺得有兩項是大家可以去做一個討論的一個是"},{"start":6264.068,"end":6278.518,"text":"在第25頁,林思明委員跟我本席,然後還有幾個委員的共同提案版本。25頁的這個版本裡面有提到說,如果說是以這個拍攝的圖畫影像去恐嚇別人,"},{"start":6279.178,"end":6280.52,"text":"等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":6297.657,"end":6298.298,"text":"等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":6313.291,"end":6327.693,"text":"姓影像被掌握之後那反而一步一步的就被人家做這個恐嚇威脅所以如果說有這樣的一個樣態的話是不是能夠把這個再加入當然有沒有其他的一個這個法條來去做"},{"start":6329.776,"end":6354.073,"text":"這類犯罪行為的管制或規範,稍後請相關司法單位作意見表達。但是我認為是說,如果說在這一條36條裡面,加重刑責,如果說它有不同的樣態,然後去恐嚇別人的話,加重刑責我認為是可以考慮。那另外有包括說也有委員的版本有提到是,是不是應該要輔助相關的那個,"},{"start":6356.519,"end":6357.42,"text":"身心治療或輔導教育"},{"start":6374.27,"end":6387.345,"text":"這題36條在刑罰方面我並沒有意見所以衛福部這個10萬以上這個部分我覺得蠻好的那這一條我們主要就是針對這個兒少性影像部分加了一個重置那重置大家記得我們當時在委員會討論的時候"},{"start":6388.966,"end":6416.017,"text":"衛福部好像有不同的意見那很高興衛福部接受大家的意見因為重製性影像是性剝削裡面非常重要的一環那重製依照就是經濟部智慧財產局的規定下載網路影片存下來都是重製那這邊我想提醒大家的是我們去年性私密影像修法的時候我們是增訂刑法第319-3條未經他人同意逗號無故重製"},{"start":6417.477,"end":6435.084,"text":"當時我們斟酌的是用無故把無故加進去就是如果完全不知道不小心下載的就不在這裡面或者是說他因為研究目的譬如說我們那個信箱對不對資料庫而下載的就不是這個就是說就排除了這個因為他是有故有正當理由"},{"start":6435.744,"end":6456.471,"text":"但是我想兒少我們可能會更嚴謹一點所以這邊是用重置我也OK那我只是提醒大家就是說我們就是要想清楚要不要放這個無故還是就直接放重置那因為我有條文但是我是放在38條但是在這邊跟36條衛福部這個精神是一致的以上說明好 謝謝 來張委員"},{"start":6459.077,"end":6473.957,"text":"我主要也是想要確認一下這個重置的意思是什麼因為上次魏博士認為下載就是一個重置但是因為上次有一個案例是說因為有些小朋友他們可能只是不小心他就把他整個傳到整個群組裡可是班上在這個群組裡的人"},{"start":6475.31,"end":6492.504,"text":"在他收到那時候,似乎在上次的討論,他也算是重製了。對,所以就變成是說,可能就會有一些青少年在這種狀況之下,他可能根本沒有意思要去做這件事情,可是他就在這一條,他就犯了這一條法。所以我想再確認一下這個重製的定義到底是什麼。好,那那個法務部跟司法院有沒有意見?針對這一條,36條,重製這個部分。"},{"start":6505.669,"end":6511.916,"text":"來,司法院。我們對那個未卜的新增的這個部分沒有意見。沒有意見。好,法務部呢?"},{"start":6517.484,"end":6533.2,"text":"張委還有各位委員大家好我想不好意思因為這個部分其實我在衛福部的會議上因為也有表達同樣的意見所以我想我就因為已經有委員問了我就坦白說好了因為當時他們要訂這個重置這兩個字的時候我們是說這個可能會有隱憂"},{"start":6537.624,"end":6557.973,"text":"就是剛剛張雅琳委員她所提的這個部分確實這是一個問題那我稍微給我一點點時間說明一下當時刑法319之三定重置的那個來由就是因為刑法319之三它定一個重置當時是因為當然這是一個立法政策這是行政院的政策"},{"start":6558.353,"end":6558.713,"text":"等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":6576.534,"end":6601.314,"text":"當時的立法,大家的考論是說,就是覺得說,不管持有也好、重置也好,如果規範下去真的是太廣泛了。但是行政院當時在一些團體的,不要說壓力,就是push之下,讓人覺得說我們要重視這個議題。所以後來在幾經考量之下之後呢,那就是因為持有跟重置這兩個動作,其實在法律上它還是有一點點差別。"},{"start":6603.215,"end":6619.529,"text":"雖然在我們的數位的這個我們現在數位科技底下持有跟重置幾乎等同但是在實體的世界所謂的持有就像我現在這樣子是持有但是我製造很多個才叫做重置所以那我們在法律上我們還是要考慮到就是實體跟數位世界的一個運用的狀況"},{"start":6623.172,"end":6639.324,"text":"那當時我們在協調過程當中,後來行政院是認為說重置的可責性還是比持有高一點,所以才會在319-3定了重置。那前提是在於說,因為整個刑法並沒有去處罰持有這個動作,只有處罰重置。"},{"start":6641.645,"end":6667.762,"text":"那現在我們回過來看我們兒少性剝削來講的話當時沒有說請衛福部要訂重置的原因是因為他有持有他就處罰持有了然後也把持有因為單純持有這個東西我就訂我們是參考外國立法例當時衛福部參考由日本、德國、南韓所以他們先裁就是日本的立法例一年以下這樣那確實現在因為這一次整個是因為"},{"start":6669.043,"end":6689.449,"text":"黃子佳事件引發,然後很多人去重視這個問題。所以就一直比較刑法,為什麼刑法有重置,可是兒童性剝削卻沒有重置,然後這邊要歸重置。但是確實剛剛張嘉玲委員所提的這個問題,就是因為現在數位科技底下,我今天我在"},{"start":6690.421,"end":6704.056,"text":"典持有的那一剎那其實就是重置就是下載的那個當下它就是重置所以剛剛其實在會前的時候也有有委員辦公室的助理跑來找我那我說這個"},{"start":6706.138,"end":6733.477,"text":"我只能說從我們司法實務上我只能說這次有這個隱憂在這個未來不無可能我只能說不無可能不可能持有都會被從事吸收我是說不無可能因為這個還是要看法院法官那邊的整個法院的見解他們怎麼說明他們要怎麼去切割但是我只能說就現在來看的話不無可能未來這個持有就會被尤其是在數位科技的這種狀況他可能會被從事吸收"},{"start":6735.898,"end":6757.689,"text":"所以我只能說這次就我們就是一直以來過去的討論,然後標示一點意見以上。所以我問一下,我要問你的意思是說,如果我們這樣子定的話,那剛剛提到的就是孩子之間就是一個訊息傳出去了,我可能不想接受,但已經到了我的手機,我算從事嗎?"},{"start":6759.898,"end":6775.268,"text":"因為我們現在手機像LINE的影片啊我們看影片在點開的那一剎那其實它就是下載到我的手機裡面這樣就叫重置這就叫重置這好嚴格喔因為它是被動接收它不知道是什麼它點開它就有罪了所以這就是"},{"start":6777.131,"end":6804.498,"text":"我只能說這個是從我們一直以來就是像以前我們以前很常有一種案例就是所謂BT使用BT去例如說因為以前有一段時間大家很喜歡在網路上去找那種影片來看然後用使用一個軟體叫做BT或羅子欸那叫什麼忘記了羅子就是這種軟體呢它為了加快加快這個下載的速度所以它同時上傳跟下載"},{"start":6805.618,"end":6821.901,"text":"也就是說他把全世界的人正在下載這一個檔案的人全部集結在一起然後就是大家一直你上傳到你下載到A段你同時把A段傳出去然後別人就可以就是用這種他是技術但他可能不知道那個裡面是什麼對"},{"start":6822.862,"end":6848.648,"text":"但是可是在過去的事故案例 這樣就算了所以很多被告他後來又跟我們抗辯可是因為沒有辦法因為被告也知道這個就是同時上傳下載所以後來像這一類案件在過去有一段時間其實都有相關的相關案件因為那個是在做做全法的案件好那我具體問舊法務部的你們的立法的見解你認為36條要怎麼"},{"start":6850.888,"end":6871.727,"text":"修訂文字比較不會有你剛剛講的這樣的問題。就是說他如果僅止於被動接收,他可能就要入罪。這的確是有點太廣泛了。在實務上我們也不是要追究這些人,是那一些……對啊,你們有沒有比較具體的文字的修正的意見?"},{"start":6878.001,"end":6897.956,"text":"如果說就我自己個人這一邊的意見的話會建議是說因為其實少性剝削就已經有規範持有了那是不是重置就不要規定因為其實它就有製造然後有持有就把這個整個分開那如果持有的話你剛剛講的那一種情況就是說它是被動接收的就不算"},{"start":6898.777,"end":6900.398,"text":"等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷"},{"start":6916.289,"end":6942.346,"text":"我們的法條上36條有重置、39條有持有,那就會同時構成36跟39,然後會依刑法55條的規定,想像進合,從一種處斷,就會處到重置罪。但是如果說我今天我那邊沒有重置了,沒有重置,那在我們的司法實務上,可能這一類的案件我們就會認定說,就是張淳武就是處罰他持有,就是依39條第一項的規定來處罰這個人,這樣子。"},{"start":6948.472,"end":6960.205,"text":"而上這一塊這也是為什麼我們一直就是剛剛我們參事有向各位委員說明解釋就是說因為現在其實像我前陣子也有接到電話就是說有一些"},{"start":6961.586,"end":6984.538,"text":"小孩子、學校學生因為拍攝,就是好玩拍攝照片,然後已經被移送,移送哨院。那我前陣子也聽到那個警察官也有在講說,少年法院還有把這一類案件進來移到地檢署,因為移到地檢署幾乎都可能就是需要我們起訴,所以我們現在這一類案件,我必須老實講說,可能在全國的案件裡面沒有很多,"},{"start":6984.838,"end":7008.871,"text":"但是就是說因為這個對象是學生所以檢察官都會比較就是會覺得自己也是都有小孩啦所以他們都會將心比心所以說才會在這個部分我只能說就是現在目前的實務狀況是這樣然後我們會建議就是說也很感謝剛剛委員都有支持就是說刑度盡量都維持這樣子"},{"start":7009.711,"end":7025.452,"text":"對,那未來到底等案件發生再更多了以後,法院對於重置跟持有這塊的解釋說明會不會再限縮,這個可能就要等到未來,未來的案件,因為我們在過去像著作權法的案件,就有呈現過一個"},{"start":7027.434,"end":7044.531,"text":"一個狀況,就是說法剛開始的時候,就是一直適用這個法條,就發現處罰的範圍非常的大。然後,而且法官他後來開始慢慢線索解釋,線索解釋之後再,可是那個都要過好幾年的時間。對,以上。好,來,洪孟楷委員。"},{"start":7046.519,"end":7064.082,"text":"主席,我具體建議,因為現在是數位時代,所以說剛剛其實我認同這個我們官方代表這邊講的,就是說如果說把這定下去的話,可能會對於這個樣態會太廣泛,而且可能很多人不小心就會犯了罪,甚至現在有很多通訊軟體是它有設定自動下載功能,"},{"start":7064.602,"end":7083.933,"text":"所以我被人家發了訊息來之後我根本還沒有打開但是我已經如果說下載到我的手機相簿裡面那是不是這也已經構成這個犯法那另外我就回歸到立法精神其實我相信各委員大家提出來重置這個事情要把它放進概念是什麼概念是我們不希望有買方市場"},{"start":7085.287,"end":7104.874,"text":"就是大家會講是說這個我們36條是要閒置說不要有去拍攝兒童的這個性影像嘛那為什麼會有人拍攝因為有人要買有人要買所以說才有獲利才有獲利之後造成說賣方有市場所以說賣方會持續的去拍攝想要來獲利但是如果說在第39條現在我們已經把它加入"},{"start":7106.014,"end":7131.747,"text":"無證當理由支持對價持有那等於是說我們對於買方市場是強制的處罰其實就如同這個知名藝人的這個案件他的問題在哪裡他去付費購買兒童性影像下載到他電腦裡面所以我們立法精神應該是要嚇阻這樣的一個行為所以我們絕對不可能同意"},{"start":7132.407,"end":7159.664,"text":"副費的狀態所以我覺得應該是說是不是如果說我們的立法精神大家委員可以同意的話應該我們回歸到39條我們支持39條現在布的版本也是有無正當理由支持對價持有那其實就是說禁止購買的行為那36條可能就把疑慮的地方給這個不加入但是我再拜託主席等一下可以考慮一下是說如果說是持有但是拿人家的性影像去威脅"},{"start":7160.805,"end":7186.589,"text":"的這樣的一個樣態的行為,是不是能夠把他給放進去加重處分?以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。來陳檢科委員。對,我認同黃孟楷委員的意見,因為最近有許許多多新的犯罪型態,是用這樣子的方式去威脅未成年,可以繼續在不斷地拍攝影片給他。對,所以反而這個是可以,如果我們可以放進去,可以趕快阻止很多快發生的犯罪。好,來范雲委員。"},{"start":7191.375,"end":7216.21,"text":"我剛剛講的是說因為性私密影像當時用無故重置就可以避免那種不小心下載的或誤觸的那只是這邊就是說大家覺得重置會有這個問題然後並沒有要接受無故重置的話可是我剛剛在想刪掉會有什麼問題因為重置性影像其實跟擁有又不大一樣因為我有可能就是我下載之後那可是後來我刪除了"},{"start":7216.77,"end":7232.306,"text":"可是我們的技術其實是有可能知道他去色情網站下載兒少的性影像之後刪除嘛因為他已經刪除了他就沒有持有了你就沒辦法用持有這個罪來處理他所以我在想說如果刪掉這個東西的話又有這個問題所以提出來問大家這樣"},{"start":7234.175,"end":7254.145,"text":"好,那個衛福部是不是回應一下剛剛大家這些意見我先就剛才這個洪委員建議的對那個威脅乙性像作為威脅這個部分在現行的刑法的305條以及兒權法的1、2條都有相關規定那是不是還要另外"},{"start":7254.785,"end":7282.545,"text":"在本條例領後去增加,我們基本上是想聽聽司法院跟法務部的意見。第二個部分就是說,如果我們在36條把重置,其實重置就下載了,把重置拿掉,那是不是就回到39條是無故持有,那就跟回到現行的狀況,是不是沒有辦法回應這一次因為這個"},{"start":7284.467,"end":7289.276,"text":"黃姓藝人事件之後的各界聲音,也請委員斟酌。"},{"start":7298.211,"end":7317.846,"text":"針對那個脅迫的部分,我是覺得其實大家修法是想要針對比較惡意的,一定就是要加重處罰。所以剛剛洪孟楷委員特別提到那個脅迫,不然還有陳勤恩委員提到的,就是說你這麼惡意,還用這個去威脅的,我們是不是應該要在36條裡面反而應該要特別去強調?那這個法務部有沒有什麼意見?跟司法院?就是把它加進來有沒有什麼體力上不妥?"},{"start":7331.966,"end":7345.159,"text":"其實相同的這個問題在去年112年2月修法的時候就討論過了那有一些婦女團體他們也一直在提那我們先就只能說明就是說當時我們部裡面的見解是這樣子就是說"},{"start":7346.3,"end":7362.549,"text":"兇嚇罪在刑法305條就已經有規定了。那他恐嚇的惡害同質包含我威脅生命法益、身體法益、財產、自由這一些我們都包含在裡面。那當時我們的認為是,這個就是我們刑法的整個體力來講的話,今天"},{"start":7365.575,"end":7385.261,"text":"有人拿刀對著被害人說我要殺你喔!你如果不怎樣我就要殺你喔!就這樣子的案例呢其實在整個現行的法制底下並沒有加重的規定那所以站在我們的立場就像剛剛我們參事有介紹就是說我們刑法體力其實四個"},{"start":7386.241,"end":7402.57,"text":"各人法益裡面生命、身體、財產跟自由那生命法益我今天我想要殺你這樣子的一個動作已經把生命法益拿到最危險的情況之下我們都沒有加重期刑的話那其他的狀況以刑法的體力來講"},{"start":7403.77,"end":7420.775,"text":"是比較沒有什麼特別的理由二來就是說其實剛剛市長也有報告就是說其實在今天如果他的對象就是兒少了那兒少的這個狀況之下的話他305條雖然刑度是兩年以下尤其徒刑但是依照兒權法的"},{"start":7422.395,"end":7445.492,"text":"一、二條第一項的規定的話,它就是加重起,它是從三年起跳而且它那個是法定型直接提高,因為是故意對兒少犯罪那這樣這種狀況是,它的刑度就是要,就是它整個刑度會提高,就變三年以下有期徒刑所以就是說,如果依照我們過去這樣子一貫的見解跟立場來講的話,這個部分可能我們的意見就是還是維持這樣子"},{"start":7447.273,"end":7470.729,"text":"那過去有用過嗎?有用到你們剛剛講的有引用兒圈法加重期刑二分之一嗎?有類似這樣的案例嗎?不好意思,因為我沒有去查過啦,但是只要是,這個這種案例其實在實務上我想應該不會,也不會說完全沒有啦,因為那個,要怎麼說,就是"},{"start":7472.116,"end":7479.523,"text":"等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷"},{"start":7493.937,"end":7504.994,"text":"那種有點二讀的那種狀況的話,可能都也是會有啦。對,以上。好,謝謝。那個范雲委員再羅廷瑋委員。"},{"start":7506.641,"end":7533.562,"text":"因為剛剛好像是不是法務那邊一直說家無故會有認定的問題可是我們修性私密影像的時候我們刑法319之3條就有無故重置我們當時不是用重置我們是用無故重置所以我就在想說這邊如果用無故重置就可以避免剛剛張亞玲委員跟一些委員擔心的就是兒少那個賴群組內點下去不知道是什麼點下去就下載了"},{"start":7534.383,"end":7562.221,"text":"因為他其實完全並不了解就會排除這種那不知道這個部分將會有什麼問題嗎因為我還是擔心說我們如果拿掉了那他只要去兒少色情網站假如不是付費的那他下載之後看完之後就殺掉了那他就不算持有啦那這種人我們就變成沒有辦法處理了那重置也有包含另外一個就是他把一個影像變成很多份那個也是重置那個還是跟持有不大一樣"},{"start":7564.273,"end":7589.425,"text":"算不算製造?製造是要從零到有那個是製造嗎?可是重製就是弄很多copy這樣子,對啊就是至少依照那個經濟部的那個部分就是說你只要印刷、複印、錄音、錄影等等讓它有直接、間接、永久、暫時之重複製作,就是那個好了,請羅廷瑋委員"},{"start":7593.961,"end":7618.857,"text":"我也是支持洪孟楷委員所說的但我還是要再次提醒我覺得不只是恐嚇他人這樣的案例也有誘騙他人這個誘騙的過程有沒有恐嚇其實我們可以一到上次有提過這個案例警察也是創意私房的會員一手法誘騙三少女拍性相然後再一次的販售招判一年十個月"},{"start":7619.717,"end":7640.655,"text":"我想這個承認警察這個流信警察他因為自己的職權特別拿到了影片然後又再約當事者來到再一次的拍攝然後說要來幫他說釐清真相可是再一次的拍攝的過程到底有沒有恐嚇還是純誘騙我覺得這都應該把它寫在這裡面"},{"start":7645.439,"end":7660.902,"text":"那可是我們的重點第二個就是說你說加重其刑三分之二這件事情不符合比例原則但是我們現在遇到的問題就是這一個流行員警最後被判一年十個月我想雖然"},{"start":7661.883,"end":7689.639,"text":"看到這個案件讓我們就覺得他有加重的必要但是我們也擔心我們就算加重加重再加重現在的法官如果用因為他好像是這一個判例他不是用兒少性剝削來做判罰他是用那個危害隱私權來判罰所以我們也擔心說除了一昧的加重之外如果法官不用我們所編的這個新的法令這也會造成"},{"start":7690.64,"end":7692.945,"text":"等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":7699.096,"end":7720.686,"text":"該加重的要加重那相關的一些法令在進行在進行當中有其他的法令來做一個解釋的時候這部分我們是不是應該想辦法來破解所以我也希望法務部不是只是告訴我們我們現在不符合比例原則而是告訴我們該怎麼防範這個問題然後我們才可以安心來訂定這個法令"},{"start":7725.461,"end":7753.343,"text":"好 謝謝來 司法院這個就是謝謝委員這個就是提到上次有提到的那個案件後來我們有去了解就是說那個案件呢其實檢察官起訴的部分並沒有急於後面他的那個部分的行為而且那時候是舊法舊法的時候其實個資法是5年以下是比較重的所以他在這個起訴的對象就不急於他後面的那個部分的一個行為的部分"},{"start":7753.843,"end":7768.304,"text":"那所以在那個個案裡面他其實就是會有這樣的現象那但是去年修法之後他其實已經加重的罰則了也就是說其實現在的這個情形可能是我們要做一點這樣的說明因為上次委員有有"},{"start":7769.065,"end":7781.495,"text":"提到這個案件我們有去了解整個審判起訴的對象其實是他的犯罪事實的認定是有落差的以上做一點說明那我再說一下剛剛其實朱祖簡他有提到"},{"start":7785.558,"end":7790.521,"text":"三十六條重製和持有的部分。未來舉例來說,我剛跟同仁法官討論時,今天我傳一個訊息給林月琴委員,傳一個照片給她,"},{"start":7804.807,"end":7829.854,"text":"有時候這個照片他不見得是要我傳給他的但是我就傳給他了所以這時候你怎麼認定他有沒有持有的意思或者說他如果下載之後他是不是重製所以這裡其實都會有一個法律的一個事實的一個調查跟認定的評價的這個過程所以其實持有也必須要持有的意思重製也要有重製的意思所以剛珠姐提到說的確在實務上很可能因為數位的發達"},{"start":7831.314,"end":7845.69,"text":"那我們可能常一個動作,他可能甚至於說剛剛那個洪孟楷委員提到說我們有那種自動下載的,他可能就自動重置了。對,所以這裡其實會有一個你在認定事實跟適用法律的時候,尤其是刑法,那一定要回到就是說不能夠就是說讓人民輕易的入罪啦。"},{"start":7849.674,"end":7873.301,"text":"那不過我覺得這時候可能也必須要仰賴就是檢察官的起訴還有他在這個訴追這個刑罰的時候可能也是要注意這個部分問題所以我們第三點我們要強調這次為什麼說要拜託各位委員就是盡可能往前面的教育端走那因為這些孩子其實多數的其實我們在實務上遇到的可能都不是類似這樣創意私房的這些大人的剝削兒少這個性剝削很多其實會中槍的"},{"start":7878.823,"end":7904.485,"text":"其大概都是在成長當中他在社會化的過程的這些兒少那我覺得這一點呢跟我們會希望就是大院呢可以就是特別去注意這個部分那我們也會希望就是說這個整個刑罰的重刑應該回到個案如果應該是應該嚴格的給予重刑的應該其實是在個人的認定上其實應該就要給予嚴格的處罰但是希望能夠不要再這個就是讓"},{"start":7905.626,"end":7905.886,"text":"等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":7924.896,"end":7946.044,"text":"一直持續在這個就是累積增加當中那如果說跟校園跟家長可能了解一下大家其實都非常的有心不過法律其實是一視同仁的一旦都重型化了我想這個影響所及可能也會造成其他的一個社會問題以上補充謝謝那請教一下司法院正在36條的這個"},{"start":7949.085,"end":7968.954,"text":"修法的這些文字包括寫重製還是剛剛范委員說無故重製或是拿掉你們的意見是怎麼樣?剛剛有提到說我們對於未卜的這個版本我們沒有意見的原因是本來就是到底是不是重製會吸收持有要從個案上面去認定因為譬如說使用數位"},{"start":7970.895,"end":7971.055,"text":"李慧琼委員"},{"start":7992.705,"end":8018.684,"text":"所以其實有時候會變成就是到底有沒有持有其實很難去認定的那我覺得其實法律的設計其實不應該是這樣所以我覺得其實不論是法條是持有或者是說法條是重置它其實都還是要看個案的事實去做一個認定啦只是說我們怎麼樣的去讓這次的修法其實能夠讓整個國家更重視這個兒少他不被性剝削那我覺得可能才是重點"},{"start":8019.304,"end":8048.371,"text":"所以如果說我們現在其實在39條已經有一個就是對家性的這個無辜的持有的入罪那跟這個重置它在法律的行為樣態它本來就是兩個行為樣態可是它有時候會二合一要看整個具體的行為還有它使用的這樣一個就是它的一個載具它的一個功能那所以我覺得我們對衛福這個法文我們基本上我們司法院這邊是沒有意見但就是回到個案case by case去認定以上"},{"start":8050.544,"end":8050.93,"text":"謝謝,來,另外一位"},{"start":8054.645,"end":8080.195,"text":"所以有沒有可能齁,剛剛如果以廷長這邊講的這樣的話,那是不是再36條,因為剛剛趙琳委員有擔心說你重置有時候事實上是不小心去按到我下載了,所以如果按照范雲委員剛剛提的加一個無故重置,是不是這一個就按照院的裏邊可能再加一個無故重置,那這一條就可以"},{"start":8080.895,"end":8081.576,"text":"我們就可以結束討論了"},{"start":8100.879,"end":8126.372,"text":"此有也是有無故的那個狀態裡邊那是不是兩邊都可以比較擅除說剛剛擔心的有時候孩子真的不小心他嚇得下來以上好 請問下面委員要表示意見如果沒有的話 那個衛博部是不是你們的意見呢是 那我們就尊重委員大家討論的意見加無故就是比照成人的那個部分"},{"start":8128.544,"end":8154.942,"text":"好,那脅迫的部分還是沒有辦法加上去。好,那羅廷瑋委員還沒意見,這部分,"},{"start":8160.667,"end":8184.919,"text":"不符合社會取代不符合社會取代來陳君彥委員因為剛剛他們是說大人恐嚇小孩恐嚇未成年這個不常見但其實在最近的新聞都越來越常見還有韓國的又爆出一個類似N號房的事件在這幾天所以我想這是未來的刑刑犯罪的形態之一只會越來越多而已"},{"start":8189.775,"end":8216.291,"text":"好,那我們是不是衛福部還有空間可以演繹一下怎麼把委員的意見放進去因為委員擔心是說這個法條適用他們法官也好或檢察官也好有沒有靈活嘛所以我們在第五條有增加最後一項就是這些辦案的這個司法人員包括警察包括檢察官跟法官要上這個課程那上這個課程就要提醒"},{"start":8218.072,"end":8245.765,"text":"上如何防制兒少性剝削以及性剝削法律適用包括恐嚇除了刑法的305之外還有一個兒少福利的1、2條是可以加重其刑的這部分加強那我想應該可以回應委員擔心這一類案件的一個氾濫那我覺得也可以回應民意好所以是在第五條前面剛剛通過第五條裡面就是有強化那個專業訓練的部分嗎"},{"start":8249.178,"end":8270.933,"text":"好那如果我有沒有其他意見的話我們是不是36條還是可以按照衛福部的修正條文然後重置前面加上無故兩個字大家可以同意嗎如果沒有意見的話那我們就修正通過好不好好那修正通過好來接下來是第36條"},{"start":8279.71,"end":8306.549,"text":"三十八三十八條維持原條文,大家有沒有意見?好,如果沒有意見的話,那我們就維持,第三十八條維持原條文,第三十九條三十九條,增加第一項無正當理由支付對價而持有,那個處一年到七年,一年以上七年以下的有期徒刑"},{"start":8307.149,"end":8335.798,"text":"那同時第二項在這個原來第一項這個無正當理由單純持有性影像之前前次是一年影像我們現在修正為三年影像不好意思那個主席剛剛38條太快了我漏講一個因為我的版本有一個就是38條如果洩漏個資就是譬如洩漏被害人的姓名出生地域居住點要加重其刑二分之一"},{"start":8336.518,"end":8360.314,"text":"這個部分因為原本並沒有那衛福部不知道願不願意考慮因為的確是有一些洩露個資的跟你比如說你性向兒童性向就很糟糕了他還要告訴大家說他是誰然後在哪裡讀書那這種好像應該要更加重啦好OK這部分那個衛福部還沒有回應我抱歉我剛剛那個跳太快還沒看到"},{"start":8362.93,"end":8388.993,"text":"好,38條剛剛是說維持現行條文嗎?那辦委員是說他提的?洩漏個資因為這個涉及到違反個資法那我們當初在討論的時候並沒有採納委員的意見是因為在現行的個資法裡頭有相關規定是不是就回到個資法?以上"},{"start":8390.354,"end":8392.475,"text":"那我們38條先保留一下好不好來"},{"start":8420.936,"end":8444.633,"text":"男39條當然沒有意見,真的會不會有版本?好,張委員。抱歉,我想再確認一件事情,就因為39條我們是處理無證章理由、支付、對價、持有、兒少性影像。那現在在臉書有一些霸社或是RSU這種社團,這種它進去它也沒有,因為它就是會有很多人在那邊放一些私密照片這樣子,那我加入這個社團我就可以看見。那我到底是用30,我是用36條去罰嗎?現在如果要處理這個問題的話,是用36條去罰嗎?"},{"start":8451.748,"end":8472.909,"text":"這次可以請衛福部回答我嗎?這個可能要請檢察官跟法官來就幹來做整體的認定這個是要請法務部可以回應嗎?還是司法院?會請委員再講一下您說的案例"},{"start":8473.635,"end":8500.104,"text":"好就是說因為我們39條處也是吳仲江也有支付對價而持有嘛對是付錢持有的這種嘛但是因為臉書霸社有些這種霸社或是RSU這種社團他基本上就是很多私密社團然後裡面有很多的私密照那如果我今天進去看因為這樣子的行為齁我進去看喔那這個人他如果要被處罰如果我們要去偵查之後他被處罰他是用36還是用39條"},{"start":8514.528,"end":8516.749,"text":"好,那謝謝"},{"start":8543.042,"end":8545.783,"text":"抱歉我抱手我看一下44條44條也還是支付對價對對對那這個這種狀況呢因為這種社團是非常大"},{"start":8581.117,"end":8590.146,"text":"不好意思我可能就我的想像說明一下假設說今天我進入了這個網頁然後如果它是影片"},{"start":8591.226,"end":8604.296,"text":"我必須要點才會看嗎?那點下去,如果說我在偵查的過程當中,我可以證明說他其實在點了就已經下載了,那其實就可能36、39都會構成。"},{"start":8606.317,"end":8629.973,"text":"因為他就比關南要更多因為如果說今天我可能點開這個例如說我點到A網友的這個頁面我就看到這張照片我不用去點照片我就看到這張照片然後我的電腦裡面因為我沒有下載我是這樣看的話那依照現在目前應該是沒有辦法出發因為他沒有支付對價"},{"start":8631.394,"end":8658.748,"text":"但是如果說我這是一個影片然後我又點下去他才會開始刨影片那這樣的這個動作就有可能他已經下載然後我已經持有了那我們就會看這個就是整個過程因為剛剛因為那個司法院廳長也有講還要看看故意對阿所以說如果說照我剛剛在之前的說明解釋的話這個有可能都已經到重置了對阿但是還要看法官的判斷這樣以上"},{"start":8660.822,"end":8686.32,"text":"我只想要確保那個免費關懶這塊是有被含括在裡面這樣子要看個案的證據收集的認定謝謝好那39條各位還有沒有意見如果沒有意見那我們是不是可以照衛福部修正條文通過好39條通過來第40條"},{"start":8693.804,"end":8702.691,"text":"40條也請司法院、法務部表示意見。40條,法務部、司法院是為此現行條文嗎?為此現行條文。那各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":8725.612,"end":8740.497,"text":"我的版本有增加在那個第一款至第三款後面增加一個非對價性交貨猥褻行為就是如果影視宣傳品有這個部分的那這個部分是不是漏掉了可以問一下衛福部的意見嗎"},{"start":8743.124,"end":8769.855,"text":"因為我們在第二條就已經定義這個本條例所稱的這個行為就是有對價的性交猥褻所以就在條例上面他已經把他範定的這個性交猥褻就在這個地方那另外又非對價性交那就回到那個刑法的這些這個對猥褻物品這個刑法的相關規定來處理"},{"start":8772.085,"end":8787.798,"text":"我看第二條那個是下列行為之一者一才是有對價的二就是利用兒少為性交貨猥褻對啊 工人觀賞你這邊影視裡面工人不就是工人觀賞嗎你這是宣傳品出版品廣電所以他就不需要寫非對價性交"},{"start":8799.04,"end":8799.541,"text":"並科新台幣100萬。"},{"start":8823.786,"end":8840.489,"text":"我們第40條就維持現行條文接下來第41之一這個是如果用組織刑事犯罪的話加重其刑二本之一法務部跟司法院"},{"start":8846.876,"end":8871.545,"text":"委員好這個組織刑事犯本條例之罪的這個條文上一次我們已經有提供委員參考就是說我們依照組織犯罪條例它有它特定的意義跟它的結構那還有它的構成要件那我不知道委員的意思是要跟組織犯罪條例所定義的組織不一樣然後要定在這裡面"},{"start":8872.805,"end":8902.348,"text":"那如果是這樣那看要怎麼樣定我們也尊重但是如果用以組織形式犯本條例之罪可能就如果沒有改編的組織的這個定義的話那可能就會跟組織犯罪條例有重疊那就有沒有必要在這裡定那這是我們想請委員理解的如果不是如果決定不要跟組織犯罪條例一樣而要定在這裡的話那可能用組織這兩個字在這裡就不是很合適以上"},{"start":8906.488,"end":8910.435,"text":"提案委員羅廷瑋委員有要補充嗎?"},{"start":8913.078,"end":8933.192,"text":"所以法務部是不律徵,就是維持現行條文?不用,應該是不需要徵定,因為我們其實如果有組織它這樣的一個結構形式的話,其實我們就用組織犯罪條例來處理,其他更重的罪其實我們也都是這樣在處理,可能用這樣子維持原來的條文就應該是適用。好,那我們41條之一就維持現行條文,來43條。"},{"start":8937.35,"end":8953.51,"text":"四十三條是配合第39條的修正,增加了它的相次,著作相次的一個增加。以上。好,那這個應該沒有問題。好,如果我有沒有意見,四十三條通過。來,四十四條。"},{"start":8955.924,"end":8973.353,"text":"44條增加性影像這個樣態,同時把刑度做一些調整,還有罰金也做了一個調整。因為我們沒有41條之一,所以它是不予增添。好,那44條有意見嗎?好,來,林委員。"},{"start":8983.723,"end":8998.728,"text":"44條當初有提所謂的無正當理由購買取得違反第四章規定的網際網路內容提供者的會員資格而且並有適時逐任支付對價取得這個照影像"},{"start":8999.588,"end":9015.371,"text":"所以不知道衛福部這邊可不可以說明一下今天有這個會員資格像創意私房這就是有這個會員資格嗎所以想問一下你當時沒有去放在這邊的考量如果有會員資格的時候怎麼做處理"},{"start":9024.916,"end":9045.686,"text":"當時我們沒有參採的理由就是說第一個有些網站它並不是全部內容全部都是違法它也是會員才會員之個它不見得是全部都違法那查到它有加入這個不是全部都違法的會員就會涉及44條的這個刑責"},{"start":9048.547,"end":9049.308,"text":"等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員"},{"start":9068.266,"end":9086.943,"text":"像創意私房跟觸感空間他們都是會員制嘛,N號房的也都是,就是說韓國N號房也都是會員制,所以當時才會去提出來這一點,只是說今天大家有提的相同的大概只有我今天在場而已,所以我還是要請你具體做說明,因為沒有"},{"start":9088.396,"end":9092.198,"text":"提供的會員資格並有事實足以認定他支付對價取得兒童及少年性影響者。"},{"start":9106.863,"end":9131.908,"text":"所以我們需要儲一年以下有期徒刑然後拘役或科或併科新台幣3萬以上那30萬以下的罰金因為他已經有這個動作他取得會員如果我今天沒有看到沒有看到他有去下載可是他已經是加入會員的話我覺得這應該也要認定然後他已經有這樣的動作了因為這個是一個犯罪樣態的認定是不是可以請法務部朱簡朱主簡來說明嗯"},{"start":9136.688,"end":9161.703,"text":"跟委員報告一下,其實我們在看這一項的時候,其實我們現在仔細念一遍就變成說你取得會員資格並有事實主任、知父對家取得兒少性影響,其實已經有到知父對家取得兒少性影響的話,其實已經是符合現在衛福部所提出建議版本39條第一項,知父對家持有兒少性影響,那這樣的話其實是一上七下。"},{"start":9162.563,"end":9177.295,"text":"的刑責。對,那其實有沒有取得會員資格也不是那麼的,就是說我今天只要支付對價取得兒少性一項,那他就是有持有的、持有的狀態。那持有狀態,他就是屬於39條第一項的規定。"},{"start":9179.116,"end":9180.757,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":9197.85,"end":9222.092,"text":"他不曾持有過,那個只是我們未來偵查的問題,但是他只要取得,就是變成他有持有的,曾經持有過,那這樣的話就是39條第一項就可以處理了,這樣以上。所以你的意思是說已經難怪在39條,可是如果你今天去掃蕩創意私房的時候,的確你沒有看他後邊這個人的動作,可是我在,他事實上是其中的會員,那"},{"start":9226.761,"end":9251.275,"text":"你似乎就沒有辦法是說那如果說這樣子加入的話是不是就已經先用這一個來處理他的問題而不是一定說他要持有這件事情39條講的事實上是無辜持有可是現在如果你只是查到他是這邊的會員可是他你還要進一步去證明說他持有才能進一步的去針對他的犯罪事實去認定不是嗎"},{"start":9253.498,"end":9268.023,"text":"不好意思我再補充一下我們先分成兩個層次來說明今天如果是因為他單純他是會員我們就設計刑罰要處罰他這個部分我們意見是比較可能不是那麼的適合"},{"start":9268.203,"end":9284.862,"text":"因為它有點類似所謂的預備犯就好像說我今天想要殺一個人我先去做了一個預備的計畫然後去買了刀我們在刑法上這叫做預備犯那預備犯在我們整個現行的法制底下它是屬於重罪像內亂、外患、殺人罪我們才會有預備犯的處罰"},{"start":9286.323,"end":9315.559,"text":"那今天我只是單純參與的這個會員那這個會員呢他的目的其實他就是想要看想要持有這個東西變成是持有的前階段的行為那這個就是像我剛剛講就是說這可能一個橫頻了啦然後第二個問題就在於說其實整個我們現在所有的網站啊他可能有兒少的性剝削影像但是他也有可能是成人的性影像甚至就是盜版的A片江漢之敗就是盜版A片"},{"start":9315.999,"end":9344.078,"text":"那有的人他可以主張我就只看爆白A片或對那這樣的話就是說我只去處罰他會員可能這個可能就有一點點橫平性的問題那其實然後在就這個委員所提的版本底下因為他有並有事實主任之夫對價取得其實就可能是我的解讀問題啦就是我的解讀會覺得說有事實主任之夫對價取得的話其實就已經是持有了對所以他其實就是引導39條底下以上"},{"start":9346.94,"end":9370.576,"text":"好,那如果委員這邊沒有意見的話那我們就44條44條就按照衛福部的建議修正條文通過那剛剛第41條之一呢因為是原來沒有的條文所以是不予增訂對,是要不予增訂好,來接下來第"},{"start":9375.086,"end":9375.386,"text":"45條建議維持原條文"},{"start":9412.183,"end":9427.874,"text":"因為這一條也是針對這個要提高這個刑責所以我們基於這個在去年二月的時候有做了一些調整而且他的一個橫評我們也是司法院保部也可以表示一些"},{"start":9436.141,"end":9459.949,"text":"法務部也要表示意見嗎?因為這是盤整過的刑度,我們就是整體依照那個刑罰原來的比較基礎來看那像45條它是兒少坐台陪酒、陪室的這個行為那原來去年在盤整的時候其實那個刑度也已經是有考量過的"},{"start":9460.769,"end":9485.139,"text":"那委員我看委員的版本好像是就是要提高嗎那因為我們是整體來看那其他的條文因為已經都已經是OK的這個條文是不是也是跟其他條文相比較之下是比較也是原條文應該是就可以了因為這不是我們去年沒有考慮到的條文那只是委員還有一個是要怎麼依法勒令停業這部分這個部分可能就是屬於"},{"start":9486.059,"end":9504.988,"text":"行政、行政法的部分,那是不是就請衛福部主管機關來署名。那個勒令平業部分。我們當初修參照兒權法裡頭相關規定是讓他停一個月以上、一年以下去做這個這個"},{"start":9507.759,"end":9509,"text":"等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員"},{"start":9531.472,"end":9550.94,"text":"45條之二我們在先前委員會議的時候有討論到這個所謂的公佈姓名因為在104年在這個這個兒少性剝削防制條例大修的時候有特別這個當時的尤美女委員特別有提到說現在是一個人權國家"},{"start":9552.501,"end":9573.539,"text":"如果要對特定的這個專業人員要去做公佈姓名回到兒權法所以在兒權法裡頭97條有對這個特定的職業做一個公佈姓名其他部分因為已經有一些判決書在司法的這個系統裡頭都有公告那這個地方我們就不以爭定建議不以爭定好45條最後不以爭定有沒有意見如果沒有意見那我們就不以爭定"},{"start":9583.325,"end":9601.7,"text":"你說判決書有公布所以就不用?兩個地方一個如果是這個行為人他的特定職業是跟兒少有關例如說他可能是當老師或者是當幼保的教保人員我們會在兒權法裡頭去公布他的姓名因為他會"},{"start":9606.103,"end":9628.461,"text":"此外的部分,這些都是所謂的刑法,判決主文,判決這些公文書會公告,會在司法院的網站或者是它的系統裡頭會去做公佈,所以我們建議不做重複的這樣的一個公佈。"},{"start":9629.842,"end":9652.248,"text":"因為他會接觸到兒童所以公布所以酒駕的人會接觸兒童那個行為那個行為會對兒少的所謂的人身安全又違反、危害例如說性侵害、兒少虐待還有兒少性剝削這些都在這個我們在保護兒少的"},{"start":9652.836,"end":9653.736,"text":"等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":9678.775,"end":9697.595,"text":"就兩個104年以前這一類的案件都有公佈姓名在104年修正的時候在三讀在這個立法院就大院在三讀的時候已經有一個提案就是建議為就是基於這個人權所以這個"},{"start":9698.476,"end":9717.934,"text":"不再作姓名的一個公佈這第一個說明那第二個說明就是如果這個犯罪行為這個行為人他的職業會有跟兒少這個特定人員接觸就他會跟孩子的照顧或教育會有關我們會在兒少福利法裡頭97條會有公佈姓名"},{"start":9720.939,"end":9740.938,"text":"所以我們建議這邊不重複抱歉我想延伸一下這一題就是說因為我們雖然在現在是在兒權法裡面有違定但是它主要是規範在各縣市政府嘛對不對各縣市政府自己公佈還是我們有一個CRC的一個網站是在CRC網站裡面可以找到這些這些人員的名字是"},{"start":9742.383,"end":9745.085,"text":"第45條之二,我們就先保留。我出一下時間,我們2點50"},{"start":9766.946,"end":9773.255,"text":"就是要結束那如果處理不完就再開一次協商會議就是保留條文如果沒辦法處理來第51條"},{"start":9777.762,"end":9788.65,"text":"51條就回應先前委員一直提到的要身心治療輔導教育的內容我們把它在第一項裡頭載明犯36條第三項之罪經判決有罪確定準用性欺害犯罪防治法的身心治療輔導教育以及加害人的社區的"},{"start":9802.159,"end":9808.863,"text":"監控,包括要有所謂的登記報告、查訪這一件事情,寫在第51條的第一項。好,針對第51條,請問各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":9817.849,"end":9845.147,"text":"五十一條我的版本是覺得目前這個四小時以上五十小時以下的輔導教育好像真的還蠻不夠的所以我的版本是第一個部分四改成八八小時以上五十小時以下那另外呢因為你後面罰款他如果不來上你就是一次罰新台幣六千以上三萬元以下你雖然可以按次處罰可是他如果都不來呢所以我的部分是加上"},{"start":9845.867,"end":9846.347,"text":"處罰至其參加為止。"},{"start":9865.214,"end":9888.196,"text":"我的部分,當然輔導教育沒有什麼特別意見,可是是不是可以加身心治療,因為有時候不是只有輔導教育就有效,還有在增列一項是說,前項輔導教育或身心治療,借滿錢還是要評估,因為過去在看,像這種性的或毒品都是累犯率實際上是比較高,那如果關於影片他大概也有一個,"},{"start":9889.237,"end":9889.317,"text":"羅廷瑋委員"},{"start":9914.825,"end":9928.964,"text":"我也是提高8小時到50小時以下新台幣儲3萬到10萬元以下支持輔導教育還要再加上心理治療但之前王振旭委員有跟我們稍微提到"},{"start":9929.665,"end":9957.268,"text":"如果這一類的人都要心理治療的話整個量能會造成崩壞所以我是建議在心理治療前應該要接受其評估有必要者才接受心理治療無必要者或者是沒救的人我覺得也不能讓我們的這個心理治療的量能整個去崩毀在所有的加害者那會造成真正需要的人會用不到所以這個部分我希望說能夠要增加"},{"start":9958.128,"end":9984.778,"text":"評估後需心理治療好那51條我們就先保留好不好來接下來51條之二51條這基本上就在51條裡面的內容那我們建議不以申訂好那因為51條保留這個就併到51條嘛對不對"},{"start":9988.141,"end":10003.698,"text":"五十一條之二不予增訂五十一條之三也是在五十一條的內容,那就不予增訂第四章之一"},{"start":10006.089,"end":10019.073,"text":"第四章之一有民眾黨團提的這些內容是參考這個性侵害犯罪防治法對這個行為人要建立這個所謂的缺氧核糖核酸的這個整體的一個做法"},{"start":10021.574,"end":10047.712,"text":"那基本上這個兩類的行為人基本上是不同因為性侵害他的特殊性第一個他再犯率高第二個他有密施犯罪的這種效果因此他要去比對他預防他再犯或者是他要去確定他是不是就是該行為人所以他要用這個去氧核糖核酸來建立他的有點像DNA這樣的一個比對然而"},{"start":10050.574,"end":10068.741,"text":"而少性剝削這個防制條例所犯的這個行為人基本上跟性侵害是不同所以我們建議這個第四章之一的所有的內容建議不以徵定好那第四章之一不以徵定以下"},{"start":10070.32,"end":10097.5,"text":"第五十二條之二、五十二條之三、五十二條之四、五十二條之五、五十二條之六五十二條之六也是在加害人的登記報告也就是五十一條的內容裡頭有涉及所以我們建議併入五十一條去處理"},{"start":10099.91,"end":10111.992,"text":"那剛剛就是52條之二、之三、之四、之五都不予增訂52條之六並到51條就是在討論處理好那第53條53條配合39條的相似的一個調整著作相似的一個增訂好那這個應該沒有問題好那第55條"},{"start":10128.868,"end":10146.74,"text":"15條就是施行日期,那因為涉及到這一次修正的第三條、第八條跟第八條之一以及47條,它有涉及到這個所謂的行政處分,那因此我們希望這個日期由行政院定之,其他的自公佈日施行。好,這個沒有涉及到剛剛的保留條嗎?"},{"start":10151.909,"end":10179.425,"text":"有,第三條?第三條,是。那就先保留好了,沒關係,我們下次再一併處理。好,那如果這樣子的話,就是第二條保留,第三條保留,第三十八條保留,然後第四十五條之二保留,第五十一條保留,我們下次再繼續協商處理。剩一分鐘。還有哪一個?還有一個什麼?五十五條。有五十五條嗎?"},{"start":10182.252,"end":10192.815,"text":"對,還有55條,還有55條保留那下一次我們協商就處理這幾個保留的條文好,謝謝時間到還有一分鐘"},{"start":10198.114,"end":10201.857,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":10230.02,"end":10234.061,"text":"蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、"}]}},{"id":"15987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15987","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e558f108d180b0e1b475d7792c9d43a4f3be8d109af184be4f43eb4f40e496fb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-05T10:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第1次公聽會（事由：召開「財政收支劃分法修正草案」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:13:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T13:18:00+08:00","duration":11082,"影片長度":"03:04:42","委員發言時間":"10:13:18 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謝謝那我們會議準備開始"},{"start":316.496,"end":341.285,"text":"好,我們現在公聽會正式開始首先歡迎今天蒞臨的所有學者專家包括我們的莊部長以及22縣市的代表包括財稅局的局長還有一些副市長、副縣長等等都蒞臨還有政府機關代表"},{"start":342.665,"end":367.467,"text":"來參加今天財政收支劃分法修正草案的公聽會介紹一下與會王宏威王委員紐許廷紐委員也是財政委員會昭偉郭國文郭昭偉"},{"start":371.292,"end":373.773,"text":"張綺楷 張委員介紹 臺北商業大學財政稅務系教授黃耀輝黃教授歡迎先稍後我等一下介紹稍後"},{"start":393.991,"end":421.4,"text":"介紹政治大學財政學系教授暨系主任陳國良接著也是我們立法院的前輩老同事也是在整個政治學術界非常榮盛的政治大學財政學系名譽教授曾俊威"},{"start":422.967,"end":452.487,"text":"曾教授、曾老師、曾委員介紹臺北大學公共行政暨政策學系教授 呂育成介紹成功大學法律學系副教授 陳文晶介紹國立臺灣大學經濟學系李顯峰副教授"},{"start":456.564,"end":469.33,"text":"接著介紹 國立成功大學經濟學系 林長青 林教授國立成功大學經濟學系 蔡群立教授"},{"start":477.537,"end":500.308,"text":"好 那我們現在開始公聽會每位發言8分鐘那結束前1分鐘會按鈴提醒原則上依專家學者之簽到順序來發言那這場的委員如果需要發言請到主席台前登記立委的部分每人大概5分鐘"},{"start":501.857,"end":515.382,"text":"等全部發言完畢後請行政機關就業館全責整體回應現在請第一位學者專家黃耀輝發表意見兩邊的這個司令台都可以齁"},{"start":531.294,"end":555.187,"text":"謝謝趙委 各位委員 各位與會先進 大家早安時間有限 我就直接開始用PowerPoint跟各位做說明我的主題很簡單 就是財劃法的修正從解決垂直的失衡 把同層分配稅款做大開始後面的問題都可以迎刃而解"},{"start":557.461,"end":559.763,"text":"時間先等一下再開始"},{"start":574.355,"end":599.915,"text":"我先講結論,因為結論比較重要從大歷史來看大數據所謂的大歷史就是我們在民國88年修憲、廢審然後也修了財劃法就造成了我們地方財政跟地方自治的災難也是我們財政上垂直失衡的"},{"start":600.535,"end":601.415,"text":"中央政府的淨收入佔比"},{"start":623.182,"end":641.211,"text":"從動審、廢審前不到60%暴增到第二年就增加到74%那25年加起來的話我看中央政府已經多拿了10兆我們來看下面這個表這個表呢如果用這個地方說明各位可以看到在這個紅線是顯示民國88年廢審前"},{"start":651.141,"end":660.848,"text":"在民國88年廢審之前我們看到中央政府在各級政府收入的佔比大概以前都在50幾%了不起來到62%所以你看那個動審前3年這個中央收入的佔比大概只有57%"},{"start":671.275,"end":671.535,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":687.425,"end":690.186,"text":"竟然暴增到75%左右 從此中央集權以後造成垂直四橫的嚴重惡化"},{"start":703.75,"end":704.11,"text":"財政收支劃分"},{"start":733.65,"end":734.492,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":745.236,"end":745.836,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":772.142,"end":772.462,"text":"財政收支劃分"},{"start":790.47,"end":790.81,"text":"《統籌分配稅款》"},{"start":815.25,"end":833.225,"text":"這個餅做得不夠大 中央都拿走了那統籌分配稅款分配公式又搞了一國三制切割成持家式、縣式跟鄉鎮式那公式又三套很複雜很瑣碎所以就變成現在的那過去這幾年炒財化法一直炒每一次中央副爸爸"},{"start":834.326,"end":834.706,"text":"財政收支"},{"start":854.466,"end":862.53,"text":"修財劃法是賴總統曾經許下的諾言他在106年擔任行政院長的時候他主動講說隔年第二年我會提出財劃法修正財劃很可惜那時候107年民進黨地方選舉大敗他辭職下台不了了之後來前財政部長蘇建禄107年上任的時候"},{"start":882.038,"end":907.211,"text":"主動宣誓說﹖他的首要目標﹖要扛下歷任財政部長﹖不敢碰觸的財劃法﹖修法可是最後﹖第三年﹖他就說﹖這是零和﹖找到這個理由﹖就跳票林志堅﹖前新竹市長﹖他也曾經抱怨過﹖新竹縣市﹖科學園區那邊﹖貢獻的國稅很多﹖拿到了一點點稅款﹖所以他想透過升格為第七都﹖"},{"start":908.671,"end":918.858,"text":"這個當然他是出於政治的考量要把它變成第7度他其實他凸顯的就是我們這個財劃法非常荒謬的地方就是我要靠升格為直轄市我才有錢那這個財劃法是顯然是很嚴重的問題那陳處理長呢他說是認為也建議早就該修財劃法了所以25年了財政部到現在還不打算修財政法實在是不可思議"},{"start":935.029,"end":935.749,"text":"財政轉型正義"},{"start":954.468,"end":978.226,"text":"大幅的扭轉垂直失衡的問題玩不錯記網希望父爸爸都拿出全部政府收入的15%還給地方政府統籌分配水管做大之後分配公視就很簡單了簡化不要搞一國三制然後平等站在每個國民他平均分配的金額在照顧一些貧窮的離島農業"},{"start":981.768,"end":1004.94,"text":"現分讓他們多分一點然後另外一個就是補助款不能比現在少為什麼這樣講因為剛才這個表在主計總署這個表他說這個中央拿到75%這個收入他是已經扣掉了各級政府彼此間的補助跟協助的重複收支說意思就是說已經扣掉補助款之後"},{"start":1005.78,"end":1026.939,"text":"中央政府還佔了75%的收入所以財劃法修正的時候我們要提防中央政府就來一招說土中配方做大之後我就給你砍補助款就是一律不容許所以時間有限所以這個做大現在按照國民黨的版本我看過了一下"},{"start":1028.82,"end":1047.439,"text":"就增加比例來講,縣市政府增加是最多然後連那個臺東增加的比例最低也有增加到1.8倍那六度呢增加的平均不到一倍所以這個有平衡這個富都跟窮縣的差距問題就從增加的金額而言,離島縣增加最多那六度呢大多增加300億以上"},{"start":1048.56,"end":1058.728,"text":"從人均金額而言 新北市雖然人口最多 但是分配到每個人的金額是最少只有2.6萬 六都又低於16縣市 離島三縣最高所以六都的佔比 總收分配稅款從62%降到49% 16縣市就增加到40%這是改變我們現在城鄉差距 還有富都窮縣的問題另外一個部分就是特別貢獻"},{"start":1072.498,"end":1072.799,"text":"財政財政委員"},{"start":1089.721,"end":1093.646,"text":"財政部指財化法修正是零和財政部指這是錯誤的觀念垂直平衡絕對不是零和對財政經濟的效益是很大的為什麼這樣講我們看到過去財政部8年內"},{"start":1107.443,"end":1112.207,"text":"佔盡了肥稅8年內超徵稅收1.8兆結果他就超花超花編了2.5兆的特別預算2.5兆的特別預算搞到最後還不是這樣舉債所以有錢他就把它花掉然後你看到今年5月10日國債中央每人負債27萬創歷史新高所以這就是道德危險錢很多放在政府那部門他就會想辦法把它花掉"},{"start":1132.782,"end":1135.403,"text":"國防外交的機密預算很難遷讀 把這個錢都花在國外所以如果我們財化法垂直失衡改善 把錢下放給地方政府就是留給國人"},{"start":1155.133,"end":1183.432,"text":"國內同胞來拼經濟對經濟的陳述效果來講是幫助很大總比把這個錢花在國防外交外國人手上去買武器就像副老闆中央去外交去搞交際應酬錢花不給窮子女來用所以簡單來講財劃法的修正如果改善了垂直失衡新利益又儲備效益其實是加一減一大於零是絕對不是零的所以最後"},{"start":1184.793,"end":1200.298,"text":"基於這個已經25年過了我們小孩啊地方政府啊25年了他還在穿很舊的衣服已經有六都了從一都二都變成現在六都還是穿舊的衣服父母爸爸你只能夠無動於衷的"},{"start":1201.058,"end":1206.884,"text":"我們看到國民黨跟民眾黨的版本都是鼓勵凶姊 想是六都讓利給弟弟妹妹的縣市看到他手足情深六都當中藍營執政的雙北、桃園和台中都同意讓利給那個把增加的額度優先分配給所得較低的石榴縣市請父爸爸的中央不要無動於衷先請藍白合作"},{"start":1227.542,"end":1236.809,"text":"幫我們賴總統對線他已經開過的支票也達成了民進黨的理想吧謝謝謝謝黃耀輝黃教授下一位請陳國良陳教授也是陳主任下一位王宏威請準備王委員"},{"start":1255.543,"end":1282.163,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位財政部的長官各位先學先進大家好我是政大財政系的陳國良今天很榮幸有這個機會參加第一場的公聽會時間非常的寶貴我謝謝民眾黨團的邀請謝謝委員會的邀請時間非常的寶貴我利用這短短幾分鐘的時間試著跟大家溝通強調一個觀念然後在修法上我有三點的提醒希望能夠引發一些作用"},{"start":1285.365,"end":1313.894,"text":"那在觀念上面我要提的就是長久以來尤其在財政圈有兩個錯誤的觀念第一個觀念就會是其實地方政府不會珍惜財政資源那今天地方政府會有浪費會有過度擴張的情形那因此與其地方財政自主不如集權集權中央那第二個就會是財政收支劃分是一個零和賽局那A多分了B就會少分那既然是一個零和賽局對於整體經濟注意不大"},{"start":1314.494,"end":1314.654,"text":"財政收支劃分"},{"start":1336.096,"end":1363.175,"text":"今天我如果能夠拉近增進資源的效率促進地方區域分配的公平整體社會福利就會提升所以今天我們在這裡修財政收支劃分法各位委員在做一件非常了不起的事情此外今天地方財政如果能夠自主的話也可以促進地方政府跟地方政府之間的相互競爭比照可以提升地方行政效率可以造成地方行政效率的創新"},{"start":1364.376,"end":1381.024,"text":"最後是地方財政自主﹐可以約束政府﹐避免政府透過公權力﹐透過剋稅﹐對於人民進行過多的財政剝削這是第一點我要講的﹐地方財政自主﹐是有它絕對跟根本的必要性"},{"start":1381.924,"end":1388.834,"text":"在修法上面我的三點提醒分別是一、不應該重套覆轍第二、讓凱撒的歸給凱撒第三、很多現在的爭執不必捨盡求遠、不必原木求魚"},{"start":1398.791,"end":1425.396,"text":"讓我以下分別就是就這三點略做論述首先在不應傳套覆轍這件事情上今天我們在這裡修財政收支劃分法原因就是因為我們知道我們現在財政收支劃分失靈這個主要的原因是什麼其實財劃法25年來沒有修正地方行政架構早已經改弦更張財劃法沒有做相對應的修正所以我要強調的就會是地方財政自主其實雙向的"},{"start":1426.616,"end":1447.427,"text":"那收支一定要並同考慮那如果我講財化法其實它是地制法的財政面向那這兩個法其實應該要考慮聯動修正那如果用一個人做比喻的話那財化法是管帳的手那地制法是做事的手那兩隻手如果不合作是成不了事情的"},{"start":1448.027,"end":1463.855,"text":"那或許我可以用另外一個譬喻就是我們有財化法我們有地質法所以我們的財政分權其實是Tango那不應該玩一二三木頭人不能夠就是之前我們在修地質法的時候一二三財化法那現在我們在修財化法的時候一二三地質法"},{"start":1465.216,"end":1488.277,"text":"因此我們現在的討論是對的我們要做垂直的分配我們要把餅做大但是不能一味的把餅做大這個東西可能會有矯枉過正這樣的一個情形我建議就是第一點就是不應該重蹈覆轍我們應該要去檢討財政自主然後要認真嚴肅的檢討地方自治事項然後確實的去檢討事權所以這個是第一點"},{"start":1489.278,"end":1515.843,"text":"那第二點就是我要提醒的就是凱撒的歸給凱撒那我們中央跟地方財源共享的方式有三個機制第一個是統籌分配稅款第二個是補助款第二個是就是共分第三個是共分機制那讓我用下面這張圖形來呈現這樣的一個關係就是我們現行中央跟地方財政的關係我們有一個很大的中央政府擁有非常充沛的財政資源我們有非常瘦弱的地方政府"},{"start":1517.664,"end":1536.441,"text":"財政資源是平級的我們透過共分稅、補助款、統籌分配稅款來對地方進行一些垂直的分配在這個情形大家可以看得到在這個垂直架構底下統籌分配稅款的規模是最大的現在我們的討論好像也是集中在統籌分配稅款再進一步的擴大"},{"start":1537.402,"end":1565.578,"text":"那我認為這樣子會讓這個垂直架構失衡那或許我們應該做的是在這裡我要提出來的就會是我們應該強調共分稅的機制所以讓我回到上一張投影片這裡在共分稅這裡啊其實它是概念就是把稅收徵起之後有一定的比例留在地方所以地方政府可以直接享有經營地方財政努力的成果統籌分稅款本來就是地方的課稅收入那現在從地方拿走了再來分為什麼不直接留在地方"},{"start":1566.343,"end":1581.686,"text":"OK 那我們目前只有遺產稅、贈與稅跟菸酒稅有共分的設計而且規模非常的小那我希望第二點提醒在這裡就是財化法的修法能夠強化國稅的共分機制把更多的所得稅跟遺業稅留在地方"},{"start":1582.327,"end":1582.807,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":1598.479,"end":1621.595,"text":"OK 所以今天呢 最棘手的問題就是做大的餅該怎麼分因為我們至少要保證不能夠就比較小可是今天做大的餅該怎麼分呢那就是所謂的水平公平或是水平分配的問題那部裡面到目前為止部長對外的說法都會是要去尋求最大共識那我要強調的就會是沒有最大共識OK 所以讓我做一個譬語就是考試考100分"},{"start":1622.595,"end":1638.975,"text":"第二高是多少分?99分不對有99.5分99.5分是最高分也不是為什麼?因為有99.75分所以今天一旦有一個共識就有一個更大的共識那因此其實沒有最大共識所以我們今天在這裡討論最大共識都是空轉跟虛號是浪費時間"},{"start":1641.258,"end":1667.33,"text":"那所以就是我不由得要去懷疑說其實最大共識尋求最大共識是不是其實是行政部門在凝聚內部的共識的一個說辭那希望就是在這個部分就是我們能夠放下所謂去尋求最大共識這樣的一個說法那其實我們要做的問題我們面對的問題並不是那麼的不可以處理如果透過我剛剛強調的第二點就是把一些做大的餅留在地方"},{"start":1667.97,"end":1693.058,"text":"那我們要做的事情就會是那剩下來再怎麼分呢那我覺得就是該做的事情就會是我利用現在統籌分配稅款跟補助款的合計數在各個地方政府的分配情形當成基礎我們知道現在有30個40個50個指標那我覺得那些指標要達成一個所謂的共識是不可能的那何不我們就用現在統籌分配稅款跟補助款分配的情形當成討論的基礎"},{"start":1694.879,"end":1717.365,"text":"我們可以設計權數我們知道統籌分配稅款有比較多是給直轄市補助款有比較多是給地方政府或許我們可以設一個權數如果我們認為一般縣市比較重要的話那我們把補助款的權數高一點如果我們認為離老重要的話我們也可以離老那個部分重一點為什麼我會有這樣一個想法的話其實在財政理論上有一個說法叫救稅及良稅"},{"start":1719.066,"end":1725.871,"text":"統籌分配稅款跟補助款這兩款目前分配的情形是長期以來我們社經發展跟政治運作底下的均衡"},{"start":1727.349,"end":1753.76,"text":"今天為什麼我們要放棄打破現在這個均衡所以我建議就是以現在分配的情形當成基礎來進行討論最後就是在舍健求穩、原木求魚這個部分長久以來統籌分配收款跟補助款都有所謂政治分配這樣的一個疑慮所以我建議立法院在這次修法的時候是不是可以考慮我們以後在分配上能夠有一個撥款委員會"},{"start":1754.58,"end":1754.74,"text":"陳國良、陳教授"},{"start":1782.725,"end":1789.994,"text":"接著請王宏威、王委員五分鐘"},{"start":1799.368,"end":1824.22,"text":"好謝謝主席我想先謝謝我們召委今天從我們的初步討論到現在召開的公聽會是希望這一次大家眾所矚目的財劃法能夠得到就是大家多討論一下尤其在前一個小時我是全場坐在這邊聽我們每一位縣市的代表來聽財劃法"},{"start":1826.101,"end":1850.429,"text":"其實呢我聽完了之後我有幾個結論我想第一個結論是最重要的就是修正財劃法能夠增加這個地方的財政的收入就是從中央的統籌款能夠更多分一些到地方這個事實上是全部各縣市的一個共識"},{"start":1851.269,"end":1877.619,"text":"不管你是藍白綠執政所以這個非常難得的是是一個藍白綠的共識而並不是大家說這個是只有藍白所提出來的一個法案那我們也都知道就是剛才特別都提到在精審之前我們的中央和地方財政基本上那個派那個大餅的分配是六四餅"},{"start":1878.419,"end":1881.601,"text":"但是經審之後到現在變成75%比25%當然這個趨勢充分的說明了也就是我們中央確實有特別的集錢也特別的集權這大家剛才也都說了就說這個數字會說話"},{"start":1899.255,"end":1901.137,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":1915.071,"end":1915.771,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":1937.483,"end":1939.824,"text":"應該是勢在必行只要我們願意去聆聽我們地方的意見就知道這是一個跨黨派大家的一個共識所以我剛才其實很同意我們新北市財政局長他的說法他有一句話我認為很正確"},{"start":1956.611,"end":1969.523,"text":"先求有再求好也就是說對於我們地方縣市來講我非常清楚知道我剛才聽得非常仔細即便是民進黨執政縣市的別提到了這個有關於是不是對農業土地未來有國土法的一個相關的規範"},{"start":1978.271,"end":1992.436,"text":"或者是對於老年人口是不是也應該做一些來納入考量甚至我看到也有說你也要考慮到我們現在能源政策我們對於光電風電的一個貢獻我覺得這些都可以談但是它最大的前提就一定是地方政府要先求有再求好"},{"start":2003.419,"end":2023.672,"text":"也就是說如果我們不能夠從中央在整個的派裡面能夠合理的多分一些比例給地方縣市政府那麼大家剛才所講的各縣市政府你的考量事實上都是白說你沒有錢請問一下你要做什麼"},{"start":2024.372,"end":2024.872,"text":"中央的態度是什麼呢?"},{"start":2044.758,"end":2045.358,"text":"財政部只有三個字不要修"},{"start":2060.889,"end":2079.969,"text":"最主要的理由是什麼呢?他說因為經過統籌分配稅款啊經過我們的補助款啊我們地方財政通通改善了現在有好多的地方縣市政府代表請問一下你同意了嗎?你同意現在地方的財政通通改善了嗎?同意的請舉手"},{"start":2083.223,"end":2095.469,"text":"你怎麼能同意這樣的話呢所以財政部告訴你我不用修啊他用各種理由告訴你就是呢哎呀你們財政都改善了因為我補助款給你啊我剛才講了"},{"start":2098.47,"end":2123.437,"text":"大家全部都仰中央鼻息啊所以我覺得在這一次地方的縣市政府一定要結合起來一定要促成財劃法的修正那麼只要中央的餅分配給地方夠多那麼大家每一個縣市我們事實上現在所提出來的黨團版"},{"start":2125.197,"end":2152.743,"text":"每一個縣市都會增加很重要每一個縣市都會增加如果你不修的話你就只好向中央求爺爺告奶奶就是向這個父爸爸要錢嘛他想多給你就多給你他不想多給你他就不要給你然後呢你可能每一次一般補助款啦這些特別補助款你就去求他們所以在這邊我真的"},{"start":2154.663,"end":2155.284,"text":"財政部來自於中央抗拒修法"},{"start":2170.914,"end":2172.175,"text":"謝謝 王宏威 王委員"},{"start":2202.728,"end":2230.095,"text":"好 謝謝掌聲很多接著請曾鉅威政大財政學系名譽教授也是我們立法院的前輩委員需不需要來得及嗎我現在怕可以啊"},{"start":2231.916,"end":2233.597,"text":"請秘書人員協助一下謝謝主席"},{"start":2262.628,"end":2264.309,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2285.373,"end":2300.618,"text":"有關於修法時機的這個問題呢我特別提醒大家第一個就是我們在這兩年之內應該不會再有馬上有選舉所以這個很具有政治性的話題或許這是一個空檔的時間是我們可以好好來討論"},{"start":2302.219,"end":2302.579,"text":"財政修正草案"},{"start":2321.989,"end":2348.016,"text":"其實我們趁這個機會可以好好的大家來做討論因為表示大家都有想法都有準備第三個就是目前的政治的狀況是國會三黨不過半那我們都知道財化法的修正大家都說它具有強烈的政治性所以不太容易能夠尋求到共識但是我們也發現一個歷史上所告訴我們的一個事實就是一個政黨基本上在野的時候"},{"start":2348.536,"end":2376.759,"text":"他非常的強力主張要修《財劃法》但是當他執政了以後他的態度就會非常的保守基本上大概就不太願意輕易的去動這個《財劃法》的修正所以呢就表示在這種情況之下假設國會執政的時候通常是絕對多數的情況的話那各位就可以看得出來在野跟執政的時候的態度的不同讓這個《財劃法》其實是不太容易能夠修成的"},{"start":2377.479,"end":2397.557,"text":"這一次因為國會的三黨不夠棒所以或許我們有一個新的契機的出現可以在大家都已經有了主張有了版本的以後在沒有選舉的情況下大家可以找到一個更好的修法的契機這是第一個部分第二個部分我們來看一下"},{"start":2399.341,"end":2418.262,"text":"修法的責任 當然剛剛也有教授特別提到 其實草案法當然主要是中央政府財政部所負擔的最重要的權責 修法的這個主管機關所以我個人的看法是認為 既然是這樣 所以其實修法的責任當然是在中央政府身上"},{"start":2418.863,"end":2441.489,"text":"那到目前為止我們所看到的訊息大部分都是之所以沒有辦法馬上進行修法主要是因為沒有辦法得到地方政府之間的大家的一個共同的一個比較有共識的一種修法的內容的形成但是這樣的一個說法可能沒有辦法對社會各界有一個很明確的交代"},{"start":2442.15,"end":2450.004,"text":"所以既然中央政府是權責的機關所以即使在地方政府意見分歧的情況之下"},{"start":2450.868,"end":2475.48,"text":"我覺得中央政府還是要負擔最重要的責任來引導地方來找到一個可以形成共識的這樣的一個修法的內涵至少在這個修法的過程裡面這是中央政府所應該要做的所以這是第二個部分我認為在修法的責任上中央應該負擔更大的一個責任那第三個部分就回到來談"},{"start":2477.651,"end":2479.312,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":2503.821,"end":2531.306,"text":"第3個部分就是希望在修改了以後地方政府的自主性跟自律性可以提高第4個部分就是希望在解決未來的問題的情況下讓中央跟地方可以用共同決策參與的方式而不是用現在的單純的協商的方式來處理這4個修法原則如果能夠做改善的話基本上就可以對我們未來的修法有幫助"},{"start":2532.486,"end":2556.653,"text":"那當然這整個的修法的內容很多所以我因此我就把我的這個修法的內容的架構大概整理在這個圖表上但是因為很複雜我就不仔細談那我簡單的來的這樣說把幾個重點第一個部分有關於統籌的擴大的部分那我想剛剛大家都提到了所謂的75比25的這樣一個概念那基本上一個規模的大小"},{"start":2557.353,"end":2575.026,"text":"中央跟地方之間怎麼分在我們現行的情況之下我們要做調整的話大概有幾個觀念上的問題我們需要注意的除了剛才那個75跟25的比例大家在中央跟地方之間的收入的一種這個收支的分配之間有意見以外那第二個更重要就是"},{"start":2576.767,"end":2599.546,"text":"財政部常常提其實在現有的制度之下其實我們也在成長在分配給地方但是這樣的一個概念基本上是有差異的那就表示說在一個現行制度下的規模的成長跟制度改革之下的規模的成長其實意義是不一樣的其實地方政府現在要的不是在現行制度之下所得到的成長的成果"},{"start":2600.387,"end":2620.345,"text":"在最重要的是因為這個制度本身有很多的問題而且不能夠符合時代的需求所以制度改革了以後的成長會遠比在現行制度之下所看到的所謂的成長會來得更重要這也是我們要關心的話題這也是為什麼我們要修這個草案法的重要的原因所以為了這個問題所以因此我們在這個情況之下要修這個第一個部分所謂的統籌部分稅款的話"},{"start":2626.85,"end":2627.03,"text":"財政事務委員會議"},{"start":2648.192,"end":2667.315,"text":"擴大的過程當中其實是把營業稅全部給地方再加上燕酒稅這其實是一個已經形成的一個似乎營業的共識那我現在唯一的差別就是在擴大的過程裡面因為已經經過25年那我們有沒有必要除了這兩個稅以外再適度的再加上一部分的稅源來當成"},{"start":2668.756,"end":2668.896,"text":"中和索賭稅"},{"start":2685.942,"end":2702.335,"text":"那補助款的部分,因為一般性的補助款它終究有一個很大的功能,就是做收支差短的彌補那既然是收支差短的彌補,其實它的屬性跟統籌分析款是相似的所以我們建議呢,要這樣的一個部分把它併到統籌分析款進去那這樣的話就可以讓整個的統籌分析款的這個規模擴大那接下來第二個部分就是分配的問題那這個分配的問題當然是很大的一個爭議的所在"},{"start":2713.544,"end":2739.514,"text":"那這中間要解決的問題第一個就是當然是我們現在目前的三層式的這樣結構是不合理的所以因此我們要把它改掉而且各地方政府不管職下是縣市它的分配公式是要一樣的那採用什麼樣的公式呢基本上我的建議就是回到所有的地方政府都採用基準的收入跟支出的差短的彌補來當成是適用的標準那在這樣的一個標準之下"},{"start":2740.074,"end":2740.294,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2764.904,"end":2765.064,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2782.114,"end":2801.401,"text":"每一個地方政府所認為對它最有利的因素的不同而導致於所謂的每次在談到怎麼分配的時候我們那種所謂的共識很難形成那我為了這個問題我設計了一套所謂的最有利指標的分配機制但是因為時間不夠所以我在這邊就不強調了這個問題如果地方政府或是立法院有這個興趣的話我可以再有機會我再另外的說明"},{"start":2812.722,"end":2813.522,"text":"地方自主自律"},{"start":2834.383,"end":2834.563,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":2855.096,"end":2881.001,"text":"銀利事業所的稅在各地方之間的差異性跟它的穩定性相對其他稅是最高的那稅收分層的一個好處很多但是壞處是什麼壞處是怕在這樣的情況之下各地方的稅收的差異性會越來越高如果每一個地方的某一個稅它的這個差別性很大的話就會造成所謂的窮者愈窮富者愈富富的可能性所以因此我們在挑選的過程裡面要兼顧"},{"start":2881.841,"end":2882.001,"text":"共同決定機制"},{"start":2903.866,"end":2930.587,"text":"有溝通的機會是透過所謂的協商在那個協商我們都可以感覺到從法律的條文的意義上來看或是實際執行的過程當中我們都發現其實只是找地方來聽聽意見最後的結果還是決定在中央政府身上那我覺得這樣的一個方式基本上讓地方政府的參與性不夠所以因此我們建議未來大家需要一個共同參與的機制所以希望設一個統籌分配稅款的分配委員會"},{"start":2931.843,"end":2959.577,"text":"由實際的參與決策來達成中央跟地方之間未來問題的解決這是這個我的這個修法版本的內容大概的狀況那另外我就修一個民進黨黨團在101年的時候其實有財法法的修正的版本如果各位可以仔細看一下的話你大概也可以體會出來大概目前如果執政黨要提版本的話應該是他的方向和內容大概是什麼樣的情形那最後呢"},{"start":2960.017,"end":2967.463,"text":"我就要提到我的幾個結論第一個就是我希望我們在談這個問題的時候呢中央政府應該全盤的進行制度的檢討跟改革不要再做只是單純的局部條文的修正這樣是我們已經25年沒改了現在如果只是在希望透過局部的改變而來應付現行的情況的話我覺得這是不適當的第二個我希望各政黨能夠先把各黨的個人的委員的意見整合"},{"start":2986.419,"end":3009.456,"text":"各政黨提出黨團版本方便未來委員會在討論的時候能夠有一個比較更統一能夠有一個共識趨勢形成的可能性來有利於未來的修法工作推展最後一個我要沉重的呼籲我希望中央的改革態度能夠要有誠意"},{"start":3010.757,"end":3011.497,"text":"現在請郭國文 郭昭偉"},{"start":3047.999,"end":3049.782,"text":"主席安排公聽會"},{"start":3064.019,"end":3086.806,"text":"在15年前那是我在地方政府擔任政務官的時候地方政府包括台南縣政府、台南市政府也好當初兩位市長都積極地想要去推動縣市合併升格那當初推動縣市合併升格的其實背後的最主要目的其實是要改變那個地方政府的這個財政能力"},{"start":3087.799,"end":3111.177,"text":"那地方政府財政能力確實就如同剛剛幾位專家學者所說的在京省之後呢確實受到一定程度的框架就我理解那從1999年的這個財法法修法之後就是京省前的這個財法法修法之後呢其實地方的財務對中央的依存度其實是越來越高相對呢自主性也相對是越來越低這是不爭的事實"},{"start":3111.937,"end":3112.357,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3133.347,"end":3134.548,"text":"財政部長財政部長財政部長財政部長財政部長"},{"start":3159.445,"end":3159.745,"text":"該修,但不該亂修"},{"start":3174.642,"end":3200.321,"text":"為什麽我會這麽說呢但是你如果要牽扯到全面性的就單純一部財法法其實要修其實就不容易了這一部財法法是在整個政黨輪廓之前所設計的一個架構那中間呢歷經了整個國民黨完全執政的時候也就是說呢當初啊國民黨完全執政的時候第7屆國民黨的時候有81期立委為什麽不修那時候國民黨只有27期也就是說簡單的講不是那麽容易修啦不是不修不是"},{"start":3201.061,"end":3226.42,"text":"不容易修不是不修那不修跟不容易修這個差別在哪裡呢除了不是單純的只有中央垂直的分配而已還有現在水平的分配大家都會非常清楚從財化法的目的來說是要顧及整個地方的一個均衡發展顧及要顧及地方的均衡發展我也同意剛剛那個王煌維委員所講的所以國民黨版本增加5000多億之後每個縣市都會增加錢"},{"start":3228.057,"end":3248.616,"text":"問題是 增加多跟增加少差很多它可能會讓差距越來越大差距越來越大 看似給地方比較多的錢但是呢 之間的差距會越來越大差距越來越大的時候 城鄉將來會越來越失衡各位有沒有想到這個問題所以這裡頭 我就是對國民黨版本一直沒有辦法苟同的一個原因"},{"start":3250.698,"end":3267.207,"text":"嚴格來說以整個經省來看之前的比例剛剛黃耀輝黃教授有提到我剛才看到一下之所以會這樣子的話其實那個稅別有所不同整個經省之後的省跟直轄市的稅別營業稅會是劃分在國稅這個比例上老實講"},{"start":3268.447,"end":3285.332,"text":"這在中央政府來說是有平平正正的但是嚴格來說呢地方之所以會如此的話會這樣做調整當初北高的損失的部分也有提撥所得稅10% 貨物稅10%所以在彌補之前修法前的一些不足的地方"},{"start":3286.032,"end":3286.332,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3304.895,"end":3305.295,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3329.224,"end":3330.705,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":3354.244,"end":3370.857,"text":"所以我認為在這些版本當中會不會造成地方更加失衡老實說我最擔心的譬如講原來國民黨版本是多一個所督條款結果我今天剛剛側面聽到台北市政府今天又提了所謂的營業稅50%留在地方營業稅50%留在地方的話我看台北市政府又多了大概1000億之多"},{"start":3372.779,"end":3386.936,"text":"銀索稅的部分就是高鴻安的版本的話銀索稅的部分應該放在地方政府要5%如果這樣的話對高鴻安也比較有利每個縣市都是朝他有利的一個方向那我其實最後要講的部分才華火真的是要修"},{"start":3387.757,"end":3405.129,"text":"但是這有一些歷史的問題 也有一些現實的問題我覺得要修 但是真的不要急著修我想專家學者這麼多 我覺得要多辦幾次公聽會然後多幾次的研討會 多一些版本我們來進行一些細緻性的對話 多一些民主的程序"},{"start":3405.729,"end":3405.949,"text":"郭國文 郭昭偉"},{"start":3435.307,"end":3442.555,"text":"接著請臺北大學公共行政暨政策學系教授 呂育成 呂教授"},{"start":3458.668,"end":3471.702,"text":"主席還有在座各位委員還有先進各位專家大家早安我想剛才聽了很多從這個地方這種食物面然後財政的這個收支等等這個層面來討論這個財劃法"},{"start":3474.685,"end":3499.394,"text":"或許我是一個公共行政的一個學者在我們這個場合裡面顯得相當的另類提供一些政府管理公共行政的這個觀點給大家參考我是來自於臺北大學公共行政系的呂日成那我今天主要的這一個分享的重點呢就在於時間的關係我就直接把委員會給我的這一個發言的問題直接先跟各位分享"},{"start":3500.955,"end":3526.536,"text":"林天的剛才從這個縣市政府來至於這個學者專家前面的意見我想各位都能夠理解到有兩個我們常常都看起來很有共識的一個議題但是卻很難去做一個決定第一個就是我想大家都同意歷經這麼多年的這個時間《財化法》應該要修正我想每一位應該都不會反對但是我們為什麼沒辦法修正答案很簡單"},{"start":3528.597,"end":3545.057,"text":"從頭到尾就不是一個財政的問題它就是一個政治的問題那我的想像很簡單既然是政治問題那我們就回歸政治問題的方式來處理只是增值這個百分之多少哪一個稅務各位先進真的覺得我們這一次能夠"},{"start":3546.784,"end":3547.405,"text":"政府管理政策方向"},{"start":3568.658,"end":3590.544,"text":"提到把柄做大,我想大概也不會有人反對把柄做大但是如果把柄做大的結果只是中央地方一直在爭奪或者是分配他的既有的財源各位先進真的覺得我們這一次還能夠成功嗎?我覺得更重要的一件事情可能要想想看在未來我們整個國家發展的一個情境下"},{"start":3591.673,"end":3591.853,"text":"財政收支劃分"},{"start":3615.565,"end":3619.969,"text":"通盤性的檢討通盤性的規劃各位想想看地方行政區劃法是不是也是相同的狀況我們都認為行政區劃應該改但是問題是在實務的狀況下行政區劃很難做改變既然很難做改變我們是不是就回歸現實"},{"start":3639.685,"end":3640.587,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3651.785,"end":3676.442,"text":"記錄的這個問題這等一下我要做說明第三個呢就是這個分配的程序公式化透明化我想在座各位先進不會有人反對但是問題在於公式化透明化的同時我們用什麼樣的機制讓它能夠被真正的操作那我個人認為說應該要納入協商跟微調的這個彈性最後一個呢就是協商的這個機制我個人覺得非常重要"},{"start":3677.142,"end":3677.983,"text":"財政統籌分配稅款分配問題"},{"start":3705.06,"end":3705.08,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3720.333,"end":3720.433,"text":"主席"},{"start":3737.159,"end":3737.719,"text":"財源有限,效用更加重要"},{"start":3756.271,"end":3756.631,"text":"立法院第1會議"},{"start":3772.658,"end":3797.386,"text":"這一個75%到99%這樣的一個巨大的落差那不僅如此在年齡層的分布上也有非常巨大的落差所以我們今天在談各種的這個財政的比例跟配置的時候是不是應該把這些政策的一個基礎也把它納進考量但是各位有沒有想過如果把這些政策基礎全部納入考量的話恐怕我們今天又是一個各說各話這個雞同鴨講的一個情形"},{"start":3799.807,"end":3806.921,"text":"所以這個是六都之外我們也可以看到整個十六縣市的一個實質的一個情形所以我還是從比較務實的角度來看"},{"start":3810.404,"end":3835.259,"text":"如果我們今天把這個財源真的去擴大兩個問題是我們現行的這個地方政府的這個體制真的能夠好好的去運用這些有限的財源嗎各位可以看到第一個表格是我們現時的狀況是整個地方政府之間的這個公務人力數非常的懸殊光從六都各位就可以看出地方公務人數的懸殊那麼更不要講這個其他的這個縣市的這個狀況"},{"start":3838.337,"end":3865.353,"text":"另外一個線索這是我這幾天一直在想像這是最新的111年度省計部所做的一個統計跟分析用這兩個圖因為我不是財政專業我是從政策的角度來看我特別把社福支出跟教科人支出圈起來我要說明的是未來我們整個國家的發展事實上已經是社福支出跟教科人支出佔了絕大的比例"},{"start":3866.482,"end":3895.416,"text":"不管你生活在哪一個地區生活在哪一個縣市我們民眾在這兩個項目上所獲得的服務應該是一致還是不一致我個人認為應該是要一致的這是一個國民生活的基本的一個概念所以如果這樣的邏輯是可以接受的話只是在做這個百分比的分配我覺得意義其實是不大那不僅是稅入跟稅出都有類似的狀況換句話說我想要強調的是未來國家發展的時候已經很"},{"start":3896.516,"end":3922.003,"text":"強烈的走向必須要先滿足民眾、國民的基本需求那麼除了這些數字的呈現之外時間關係這也是省經部裡面我覺得很有興趣的一個表這是從107年到111年這個中央撥補地方的這個預算編列的撥付情形各位可以發現即便是現在地方在執行這個中央補助款的這個"},{"start":3923.143,"end":3923.684,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":3942.216,"end":3966.172,"text":"政策的一個規劃的檢討各位可以到裡面去看一下事實上它在執行的過程中還是有很多的這個共同性的問題存在不僅如此這一項所要呈現的是未來我們在長照我們在資源這個環保乃至於這個少子女化的這個問題上更需要通盤的去做考量所以我最後用這張投影片來作為我的結論第一個"},{"start":3968.133,"end":3986.77,"text":"統籌分配款應該回歸到分配的議題也就是讓縣市有能力去執行全國一致性的政策那麼縣市應該要相對的去符合特定的政策標準換句話說除了去給去要求去給更多更多的財源之外我們是不是要考慮到政策執行的標準化一致化以及政策的能力"},{"start":3987.49,"end":4013.245,"text":"在配合的途徑上可以去建立一個協商制度這個我個人極表同意有一個協商公開透明的機制我們比較能夠讓很多的事情攤開在全國國民的這個觀念之下那不僅如此可以做一些排除規定也就是我們在有限的資源可以用在什麼樣的科目什麼樣的科目應該就排除我就用過這樣的方式可以把寶貴的資源做更合理的應用以上分享 謝謝"},{"start":4016.37,"end":4020.152,"text":"謝謝呂育成、呂教授接著請張祺凱立委謝謝主席"},{"start":4043.919,"end":4070.58,"text":"今天這是歷史上財劃法最接近可能可以比較完美來修改的一刻是歷史上最有可能把財劃法做一個比較公平完美修正的一刻為什麼呢一方面立法院有三黨不過半第二其實更重要的是各黨都有主張現在大家看到其實不是只有"},{"start":4072.393,"end":4087.136,"text":"國民黨跟臺灣民眾黨提了版本事實上民進黨有非常多人都主張過也提了版本我特別請財政部莊部長注意一個事情以前的"},{"start":4088.598,"end":4113.605,"text":"民進黨的專家 立法院的專家彭百選 許天才都非常注意這個很多民進黨有理想的 立法院也提過 更重要的林全剛上任行政院長的時候 貝尼井他是有版本的第二個更重要賴清德 賴總統 這很敬意 一定會信他是有允諾他提修正版的"},{"start":4114.605,"end":4142.537,"text":"我知道這次的能夠修正有兩個歷史上很大的契機剛好在這時候都發生了一個是三黨不過半以前國民黨執政民進黨要求要改民進黨執政國民黨要求要改都過不了嘛現在三黨不過半所以他的契機就來了第二其實更重要我認為有林全那個版本有賴清德總統當行政院長時候的允諾他對人民是有允諾的所以我鄭重呼籲莊部長其實你今天報告看起來你好像看起來不修法"},{"start":4143.379,"end":4166.925,"text":"我鄭重的呼籲你回去把林全的版本拿出來看一下林全部長剛剛接行政院長我之前在電視的主持節目他找我到他的辦公室聊了很久我覺得他那個版本事實上是可以解決問題的一方面他把餅做到的同時他把一部分的錢真的有下放到地方去了他的"},{"start":4167.85,"end":4191.237,"text":"分配方式也是比較公平的可以滿足各個縣市的所以我鄭重呼籲莊部長回去要做兩件事情第一個把林全的版本拿出來看一下我非常期待民進黨最後有一個行政院版你如果不提的話或者你要抄要參考用林全的版本你民進黨自己的行政院長嘛第二個你應該跟"},{"start":4193.615,"end":4205.725,"text":"賴總統要提醒他跟人民是有承諾的好不好所以我認為現在是很有可能可以跨出這個完美修正的一步恭喜齋他是個政治問題沒錯啊誰擔保民進黨以後會永久執政把法修好對任何一個黨對民進黨對國民黨對台灣民眾黨對所有的縣市都是好的剛剛我聽了蠻感動很多選手中間都說啊少一點政治"},{"start":4221.525,"end":4245.896,"text":"小一點政治 我們今天卡司很強欸我們不只有來自22縣市的 欸 都戶企一定有來秘書一定有來 就一定都來了 對不對這個要非常謝謝這個主席的安排第一個 我們學者的卡司也很強啊曾紀惠 曾教授 我以前在做記者我比他心裡最低分寸的國庫課題他就是我的推薦系的專家了那時候有彭百選 有翁崇勳"},{"start":4248.701,"end":4275.452,"text":"黃耀輝黃教授我古尼我們一起開了財劃法要怎麼修的記者會今天這麼多有名的財經界的這個大師都是記簿啊陳國良陳教授李顯峰李教授李育成李教授陳文清陳教授林長清林教授蔡群立蔡教授柯格宗柯教授這卡子非常強一個我是覺得每個學者跟每個立法院都站在這邊講話都要對歷史負責"},{"start":4278.51,"end":4298.335,"text":"我們把政治少一點點竟然考試這麼強我們就把專家學者今天講的還有一個很重要的重點每個縣市都派了代表來了今天不只列到公報上面我們嚴格的要求我們很期待的是今天各個縣市要求的一些改革我覺得我整個聽下來很合理啊"},{"start":4300.953,"end":4329.519,"text":"你只要去看年前那個版本我覺得今天各個縣市提的專家學者講的非常多是吻合的所以最後做一個簡單的結論第一個很謝謝主席今天邀了這麼多的縣市跟專家學者來等一下可能我們每個黨講話可能立場不見得是一樣可是有幾個原則一定要做到第一個各個縣市在這次修法之後不只一毛錢不能少每個縣市喔都應該是要增加的那你說白話嗎"},{"start":4331.769,"end":4358.185,"text":"有沒有公屏 這個有方法可以做嗎 我覺得加一期提的方法非常好 加一次提的是什麼他說你先提撥一定的比例 這個在國民黨的版本我們有看到啊 國民黨說你要撥下去之前你先把11%先拿出來 那有22個官區嘛 對不對那每個縣市在做的事情幾乎都 很多事情都是一樣已經要達成的嘛 那你先拿11%出來"},{"start":4359.793,"end":4380.027,"text":"分給22縣市分0.5啊這可以滿足他基本的這個需求而且是公平的我覺得嘉義市這個非常的好第二個中央要好好去回去想一想不是只有覺得說現在好像是各個縣市或者是國民黨和民眾去搶中央的錢不是這樣子的中央的錢你看最近這幾年每年都超收啊"},{"start":4381.274,"end":4408.792,"text":"對不對他有足夠的財源而且他是有機會把餅做大的我覺得莊部長跟民進黨的中央應該要對歷史負責不要從短暫的民進黨執政這個事情去看我覺得是有機會可以改的那另外利用這個機會我最後要做一個做一個呼籲今天難得22個縣市的代表都來22個縣市的代表都來那今天可能有些人在講說22個縣市好像"},{"start":4411.994,"end":4426.7,"text":"立場是不一 我不這樣看這次我看到一個很大的一個契機就是國民黨四個直轄市的市長都已經講了他們就是在分配的過程裡面他們因為把比較多的錢分給各個其他這個縣市"},{"start":4428.121,"end":4448.99,"text":"所以第一個從垂直的分配上面請中央去參考零錢的版本該把餅做大的你現有的財源下放到地方來第二個在直轄市到各個其他縣市比較貧困的縣市做一個比較水平的某些直轄市的錢確實應該撥到地方去好不好我們共同來努力我再強調一下"},{"start":4450.766,"end":4464.555,"text":"這是歷史上最好最接近可以改革的一刻而且這是對所有的政黨對中央跟地方都是好的我們共同努力謝謝大家謝謝謝謝感謝謝謝張祺凱張委員接著請陳問津成功大學法律學系副教授"},{"start":4507.678,"end":4529.811,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位先進還有各位的機關列席代表大家好我是成功大學陳文清地方財源不足必須高度仰賴中央的補助一直是以我們長期以來地方自治長期以來的問題而且也長達"},{"start":4532.502,"end":4559.46,"text":"25年沒有修法了那今天地方財政困難最根本的根源是在於說我國未以憲法的明文規定中央跟地方的財政稅捐立法權還有稅收權它僅僅只是用法律未接的財政收支劃分法地方稅法通則地方制度法公債法等等法律來加以規範"},{"start":4561.081,"end":4583.509,"text":"那這些法律的一個問題是在於說它是由中央的一手主導來立法所以呢當然就會把這個稅收的一個比較豐沛的一個權員畫到自己手上這是一個問題所在啦然後再來就是說呢因為地方自治呢是受到這個"},{"start":4591.312,"end":4617.74,"text":"市自498號的一個憲法所保障的一個制度然後所以而且從這個理論上來講的話呢這個地方自治的一個住民呢他是一個有一個呢他的一個核心的一個需要保障的一個範圍所以不管是人事高權財政高權立法高權這個都是屬於地方自治"},{"start":4618.96,"end":4620.641,"text":"中央為某全國之經濟平衡發展"},{"start":4639.352,"end":4640.533,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":4661.991,"end":4662.391,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":4680.191,"end":4693.547,"text":"中央拿走了將近90%然後營業稅拿走了將近60%跟貨物稅拿走將近90%那剩下的所向所得稅來說的話"},{"start":4695.289,"end":4705.396,"text":"將近剩下的10%才由所有縣市下去劃分這些縣市包含6個直轄市、13個縣、3個市跟198個鄉鎮市下去劃分"},{"start":4712.22,"end":4732.959,"text":"這可以看得出來 這樣的一個劃分方式已經先天注定各地方政府的分配款項很難維持它基本的財政能力即便是垂直上的分配"},{"start":4733.8,"end":4734,"text":"6個直轄縣市"},{"start":4751.267,"end":4770.592,"text":"分配到24%然後198個鄉鎮市分配到8點多的一個分配稅款所以即便是地方自治團體彼此水平之間呢他也不是處於一個很平衡的一個狀態"},{"start":4772.432,"end":4773.193,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4794.411,"end":4794.431,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4823.892,"end":4824.292,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4839.299,"end":4850.843,"text":"特別統籌分配款又是在特殊情況下才會分配這都是問題所在當然我們可以參考一下德國的一個聯邦跟中"},{"start":4855.064,"end":4855.084,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4871.76,"end":4872.041,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4896.498,"end":4924.128,"text":"銀利事業所得稅這三種比較分配的稅捐他就去做進行分配那第二階段他是做水平的財政分配也就是說在各幫之間他已經分配到剛剛分配到的款項按照各幫的稅所收取的稅收去直接歸屬於各幫"},{"start":4925.128,"end":4928.331,"text":"引頁稅收按照各邦居民人口最後還有一個特殊的地方有比較有錢的邦"},{"start":4947.972,"end":4948.873,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4966.103,"end":4970.865,"text":"中央應該捨棄對地方稅捐立法權的過度限制因為當你對地方的立法權過度限制的時候地方不可能再去做什麼財政努力了因為他錢就不夠"},{"start":4993.596,"end":5019.892,"text":"然後第二個也是剛才各位與會學者都有提出的稅捐收入要由中央跟地方去合理的共享到底比例是多少這個還可以再去討論但是怎麼樣都會比遺產稅好因為遺產稅它是一個可規劃的稅捐它在我國的稅收裡面絕對不會佔前百分"},{"start":5022.794,"end":5023.314,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5042.102,"end":5043.343,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":5057.375,"end":5057.635,"text":"最後一個主張就是"},{"start":5079.328,"end":5102.624,"text":"在這個即便是我們要用財化法這種法律位階制度來處理這個問題的話請要有一個代表地方地方制度的一個憲政機關的一個產生來為地方發聲以上是我的一個簡短的報告 謝謝各位好 謝謝陳問卿 陳教授接著請賴世保 賴委員"},{"start":5120.67,"end":5138.842,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進今天談到財劃法我心裡感觸滿多的我在立法院多年這一部財劃法25年沒有修在中間我們幾個委員修幾次都不過"},{"start":5140.526,"end":5165.352,"text":"最大原因在哪裡?最大原因是因為這個難運沒有關係 跟縣市有關係各縣市選出來的立委一定要幫他講話所以縣市之間的整合就變成非常的重要那這次我們國民黨團已經先整合了各國民黨執政的各縣市的版本水平分配 垂直分配"},{"start":5169.301,"end":5178.627,"text":"我個人的提案所得稅增加百分之二十給地方我愛快樂給地方這叫垂直分配財政部的莊部長擺爛而且最可惡的地方就是說因為稅評分被搞不定了所以他不要垂直分配莊部長你要認清楚一個事實喔"},{"start":5194.392,"end":5202.654,"text":"修憲以前1999年李登輝時代中央跟地方比例是60比40然後到現在2024年 去年的時候經過25年了 245年了中央的頭越來越大地方的腿越來越小啊那這裡我卡在哪裡啊"},{"start":5222.745,"end":5237.208,"text":"像麻雀腳一樣阿中央地方多少你知道嗎72對28阿不僅3年都是如此阿去年72對28.1去年72點多對28.2再過來29所以就是72對28阿講70對甚至是客氣的阿我們要的不多"},{"start":5251.155,"end":5254.157,"text":"你好歹回到1999年60對40啊 總部長就擺爛說哎喲地方沒有恰好 所以連版本都沒有提啊你是部長欸 行政委員擺爛 總統他還說哎喲這個不能修 要割你的肉李樹德當部長都還願意割960幾億給地方政府 結果莊春英當部長"},{"start":5280.509,"end":5294.319,"text":"一毛不拔你只會講我現在給地方很多給地方很多來看比例啊你整個坪變大了整個坪變得很大你給地方的越來越少比例28.2是過去這幾年最少的一年去年前年28.3你不要糊弄大家啊你說哎呀我給這裡給他給他給他"},{"start":5308.934,"end":5337.248,"text":"第一個可惡的地方啊財政部啊財政部是最可惡啊不知道這個民主時代中央的地方是夥伴關係啊拳一把爪要前來磕頭向你磕頭然後在分配的時候又正常意識這麼強這是最令人痛恨的我今天部長在這裡啊一定講給你聽啊財挖瓦最大的主腦的黑手就是莊翠穎"},{"start":5339.158,"end":5344.681,"text":"你這帽子很沉重喔你到現在為啥不提你的版本為啥不提版本呢為啥不敢提版本呢你告訴我們啊院長下令不可以提嗎民進黨腿擺爛 故意不提只會講說要拖時間他們的委員說都派公聽會Man 這次公聽會大家都已經清楚了嘛"},{"start":5366.84,"end":5372.162,"text":"中退營部長用水平分配搞不定不給垂直分配從李登輝時代的60對40一日一日膨脹到72對28這是現況你不要跟我講說我給地方給很多錢那個騙人的中部長不要變裝騙子專門欺負地方政府就跟你要我具體來講"},{"start":5397.093,"end":5413.798,"text":"比例說臺北市他還交很多錢啊相對的你給他很少啊統籌加我剛剛的數字是統籌加一般計劃加專案計劃加起來的數字喔不是只有指統籌分配稅款喔這三個加起來的數字是這個樣子"},{"start":5416.633,"end":5437.225,"text":"我主張營業稅百分之百應該給地方稅額你現在覺得百分之四十我們還很客氣啊百分之百地方稅額可是我們願意50%給這個要統總分貸稅款這是臺北市政府的版本我臺北市選舉委員立委要替臺北市政府講話第二個"},{"start":5441.687,"end":5470.186,"text":"未來的一般性補助款財源不可以低於所得稅的10%貨物稅的10%最重要最重要的就是前面幾個專家提到了現在都好多德政喔加薪喔里長加薪喔議員的助理加薪費里的加薪喔通通地方買單啦面子都是你莊崔穎部長在做喔都是卓榮堯在做喔 你看"},{"start":5472.346,"end":5474.067,"text":"中央多大方啊結果通通是地方政府在買單啊我們要修法以後開任何的支票不可以地方政府買單只要中央這裡立法院通過的通通中央沒有買單這才對啦所以簡單的講我今天的話我就把實況講出來1999年開始中央跟地方60對40到現在為止一路變成"},{"start":5503.021,"end":5524.407,"text":"其實他不是28你說你有公事林全講了公事公事把它法制化林全的治理明年要錢沒有要明一條他就是用公事來分配你們有什麼公事你們公事叫做老闆的意思就是公事行政院長的意思總統的意思就是這個所以你攤開一看"},{"start":5527.054,"end":5538.244,"text":"現在民進黨執政 綠的政府地方政府拿錢就那比較多嘛 跟疫苗一樣啊這到底在那邊有趣啊大家心裡不服啊 我覺得我們地方政府太善良了太善良了地方政府應該群起起來抗議財政部的莊部長為什麼到現在沒有膽子拿出你的版本你告訴我們啊你做不到嗎 你絕對做不到啊每一個立委都可以拿出來 為什麼你拿不出來"},{"start":5556.135,"end":5559.817,"text":"你公聽會講：是行政院長叫你不要拿 是不是採取無事上的 要水不費改不便宜的撥錢下來其實要對28樁部長 這幾年下來一路的減少 地方一路減少你嘴巴講出來比較多 因為餅變大了啊比例還是低啊樁部長你很可憐"},{"start":5584.141,"end":5597.797,"text":"不改了部長的肩膀你也很客戶欺負地方政府我們才要把這個會期我們希望臨時會我們拜託主席啊這個一定要把他送出委員會想辦法盡快的通過刪讀"},{"start":5601.661,"end":5621.579,"text":"我覺得讓社會來公平這個讓地方政府不能夠這樣欺負地方政府啊中央地方不是上限級的關係是夥伴關係地方的首長都是一票一票選出來的不知道你還有沒有民意基礎勒我有民意基礎你沒有勒想清楚啊 謝謝好 謝謝賴仕寶賴委員"},{"start":5629.417,"end":5654.225,"text":"那部長是 中央地方是夥伴關係嘛那公聽會還要不要再辦今天一場 有沒有需要再辦需要的話再跟我講接著再請黃珊珊對不起 黃珊珊請準備 請李顯峰臺灣大學經濟學系副教授請李副教授"},{"start":5668.83,"end":5682.287,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有專部長 還有在座的各位專家 學者 各位朋友很榮幸 大家好那就來簡短對於財劃法的修正發表一點淺見"},{"start":5685.918,"end":5695.281,"text":"這個財化法的確從民國88年到現在這個衣服坦白講這個已經舊了中間縫縫補補縫縫補補大家都可以穿大家就是這樣過但是呢的確不是非常的舒適那這個中央"},{"start":5707.95,"end":5715.512,"text":"跟地方的財源比例因為也有歷史的因素了因為陳傑省府的負債那這樣一直下來"},{"start":5716.601,"end":5737.787,"text":"那麼當然這個財源跟權責是要對等所以移轉的話財源多但是責任也應該多一點那所以到目前社會有一個共識氣氛也慢慢成熟也就是財化法應該要修那簡單來講就是因為國際情勢的變化"},{"start":5742.509,"end":5767.195,"text":"政府的職能這個劃分也慢慢慢慢的複雜所以原來財劃法裡面的副表一副表二還有甚至關於這個地方制度法等等這些也不見得非常的妥適那其次各級政府參與的劃分也不夠合理也就是我們從"},{"start":5773.359,"end":5793.737,"text":"稅積、稅務、適當原則上的確是要檢討這個詳細數字各位先進都非常熟悉的確從稅入稅出差短還有地方依靠補助還有協助收入還有自籌財運的比例實在都比較低"},{"start":5795.598,"end":5807.163,"text":"在這種情況之下,的確需要中央很大的挹注現行的中央統合婚姻稅款的確是很複雜,因為它直接切成3塊"},{"start":5811.835,"end":5838.273,"text":"財源方面有營業稅、貨物稅、土增稅、移證稅、菸酒稅等其次分配的比例的確是非常複雜因為當年在訂這些比例的時候 剛開始是遷就限時因為指甲是能夠拿到多少 剛開始是先從71%"},{"start":5841.935,"end":5843.756,"text":"指標分配指標分配"},{"start":5866.93,"end":5890.361,"text":"當然接下來我們要去修法那現在其實社會的氣氛也慢慢慢慢的成熟那所以在這種情況之下在修法上大家比較有一些共識所以基於分配性的正義我們要照顧最弱勢者平衡區域的發展在這種情況之下的確來做一些調整做一些修法"},{"start":5891.743,"end":5908.357,"text":"當然因為縣市他除了統獨分稅管這個本來就是自有的財源大家來調戲營需但是還有一塊是一般補助款那這個部分是滿足地方政府的基本的財政需求"},{"start":5909.258,"end":5909.278,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5929.281,"end":5952.133,"text":"中央統統配稅款跟一般補助款這個的確是要調整但是因為這個法源不同主管的我們的機關也不同這個要好好的去做一些協調因為原則上的確在稅源財源上要擴大規模也就是說這個時代這個時候來檢討垂直的分配跟"},{"start":5953.274,"end":5953.574,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5980.303,"end":5980.704,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":5984.52,"end":5984.54,"text":"統籌分稅"},{"start":6016.622,"end":6043.581,"text":"這個指標上因為從各縣市所反映的這些共識大概共識裡面最多的人口營利事業的營業額還有土地面積財政能力比如說可以用自有財源或者農林雲霧的產值還有平均可這邊所得然後很重要的一點參照日本"},{"start":6044.622,"end":6044.642,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6070.487,"end":6099.56,"text":"首都有首都的需求但是呢比如說像離島地區它配合這個離島條例那這個離島基金這邊來做一些調整那這個權數呢大家可以有一些討論這個日本的地方交付稅有這樣的那最後啊也要來配合修訂地方制度法比如說關於這個地方的自治財政啦自治的稅客啦跨區的治理"},{"start":6100.22,"end":6117.929,"text":"還有中央地方費用全責這部分來一起來修併那這樣的話希望氣氛已經成熟了所以應該是可以來啟動這一個修法的大業謝謝好 謝謝李省鋒李教授接著請黃森森黃委員"},{"start":6139.329,"end":6139.689,"text":"財政局長、市府代表"},{"start":6159.682,"end":6187.608,"text":"我們也來自地方政府今天有看到臺北市還有我們相對的新竹市其實在地方稅收貢獻很多的地方它分配回去的公平性其實一直備受爭議今天的主題財化法的修法臺灣民眾黨也提出了我們的版本整個版本其實在各界包括選前我們都有遵循非常多的專家也謝謝非常多的教授給我們很多的指導"},{"start":6188.608,"end":6188.788,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":6207.643,"end":6211.305,"text":"上任之後質詢陳建運院長的第一個問題就是財化法陳院長說他會來做相關意見的徵詢不過這個徵詢一徵詢就徵詢了25年"},{"start":6221.403,"end":6247.213,"text":"過去的三個月財政部的說法他們都在彙整地方政府的意見但是現在看起來地方政府都有表示意見但是財政部他們依然在討論說他們要用什麼樣的指標什麼樣的分配方式什麼樣的相關的參數或公式但是我昨天前幾天質詢我們莊部長的時候我也講得很清楚我們希望行政院有自己的立場"},{"start":6247.893,"end":6274.955,"text":"如果財政部跟行政院的指標這麼好分配的方式非常的好非常的公平就也請財政部提出你們的指標讓我們納入新修訂的財政收支劃分法我想地方政府很清楚的就是我們希望地方的努力能夠被看見該有的地方自治的權限應該被能夠保障他在地方上面施政的順暢所以我們在"},{"start":6276.983,"end":6285.732,"text":"檢討相關地方財政的時候從2015年到2021年六都的自籌財源比重大概是54到57左右16個縣市的自籌財源佔稅率比重其實是23到27左右"},{"start":6292.699,"end":6318.71,"text":"也就是說指轄市跟非指轄的水平分配非常懸殊地方政府自籌財源占稅入的比例也非常的有限甚至有些縣市是減少的趨勢也就是各地方政府他們自籌財源在他的需求上面是越來越少完全要靠中央的挹注那財務法的修法我們國民黨跟民進黨還有民眾黨我們都提曾經提出過相關的版本當然"},{"start":6319.99,"end":6337.123,"text":"蔡英文總統任內是唯一一個沒有提出財化法修法的版本的總統我們也希望接下來的賴總統不要成為另外一個蔡政府最重要的是2012的賴市長跟2017的賴院長都說要修財化法"},{"start":6338.324,"end":6359.155,"text":"財務法裏面兩個迷思 第一個是中央跟地方之間的聯合賽局我們認為不是 它應該是一個互惠雙贏所以台灣民眾黨希望的是在現有的中央政府的預算裏面能夠在不影響中央政府的正式運作的情況下能夠撥出一定的比例來回饋給地方"},{"start":6360.789,"end":6384.316,"text":"從每一年的稅期剩餘從106到112年我們的稅期剩餘從25億到4900億不等平均一年大概是2057億也就是說台灣民眾黨所提出的財化法的版本所釋出的金額大概就是2700億這個也就是說不會影響到中央正式的運作我們希望在一個合理的範圍之內中央"},{"start":6386.317,"end":6405.354,"text":"本來就用不完這些錢這些錢應該可以拿來做益助地方政府尤其是財劃法裡面的財源第二個我們不希望富者很富窮者很窮所以希望在水平分配上面也有一定的公式跟制度化跟明確化最重要是公開與透明"},{"start":6405.994,"end":6431.215,"text":"讓地方政府很清楚知道自己做什麼努力會有得到什麼樣的補助而不是像現在可能要不知道會不會有下一秒鐘每一次公教人員壓刑中央第一句話就是我們一定補助但是第二年請你自仇我想說地方政府最痛苦的就是就像昨天早上通過的地方民意代表自己條例"},{"start":6432.336,"end":6432.816,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊黃委員接著"},{"start":6462.904,"end":6479.25,"text":"請成功大學經濟學系教授林長青林教授另外報告,12點了,到了用餐的時間,請方便的執行用餐"},{"start":6499.04,"end":6522.873,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位部長、各位先進、大家午安很高興有這個機會來這邊跟大家分享一下對財政劃分法的一些想法我們都知道這個財政劃分法是對於中央跟地方財政長久發展有非常深遠的影響而且它不只是影響到財政,它還會影響到地方的發展"},{"start":6524.736,"end":6546.249,"text":"由於這個改革是相當的大所以我們特別是呼籲要透過這個機會我們是不是能夠有一個比較周延的規劃跟討論以下我就針對首先針對我們這個地方水平分配大家比較關心的部分提出一些自己的想法其次如果我們真的考慮到說"},{"start":6549.071,"end":6555.502,"text":"分配呢 要中央要挪到地方要挪多一點點的時候那是不是我們應該進一步去考慮我們財權跟事權的明確規劃"},{"start":6561.768,"end":6580.148,"text":"最後針對中央到地方政府的垂直分配做一些很簡單的原則上的建議首先針對水平劃分的一些原則我相信各縣市都有提出他們最有力的指標"},{"start":6583.239,"end":6603.785,"text":"當我們這個經費撥到地方之後實際上它就有一個共分的特性這個共分的特性老實說應該就要回到地方自治的精神什麼叫回到地方自治的精神很簡單那就是各縣市跟直轄市要進一步來協商"},{"start":6605.345,"end":6628.021,"text":"到底看看有哪一些共同的指標要把它納進來但是這些共同的指標事實上不是那麼的困難因為各縣市都有自己知道什麼樣是共同的一些共識那如果有各縣市自己的需求呢剛剛曾居樂老師也提出一些其他的處理方法他有一些處理的公式可以來做處理"},{"start":6629.122,"end":6657.488,"text":"但是最重要的是什麼最重要的就是它的分配規則一定要有公式要有透明那為什麼要這樣子呢因為要增進它的明確性而且這樣子讓地方政府也有利可循那所以在修法上面我特別提醒各縣市政府跟直轄市可能可以考慮幾點那特別是"},{"start":6659.604,"end":6665.789,"text":"這個統籌分配款的主要目標之一是在平衡地方區域的發展"},{"start":6667.136,"end":6687.727,"text":"所以這個時候應該要將地方的基本財政需要比方說人事、社福作為分配的指標讓地方有更額外的資源來投入地方的整個基礎的發展然後進一步來推動建設以及經濟發展"},{"start":6689.424,"end":6714.94,"text":"此外,因應老年社會的來臨,地方政府可以在人口的數以外,可以進一步考量老年人口、學齡人口等人口結構的變數此外,如果我們有所謂的永續發展的時候,也可以把相關的永續指標放進來,來當作不同的權重考量"},{"start":6716.038,"end":6742.677,"text":"但是我這邊特別希望有兩個指標可能要進一步考慮第一個就是獎勵性指標第二個就是補助性指標獎勵性指標事實上是希望能夠增進財政的健全這個補助性指標事實上是能夠兼顧到公平性進一步來講獎勵性指標大概是在講的是所謂的財政努力"},{"start":6744.426,"end":6758.544,"text":"財政努力是包含地方財政的自主性、自律性我們希望能夠達成中長期的財政健全開源節流提升整個財政上面的發展"},{"start":6760.6,"end":6780.885,"text":"至於補助性的指標,這部分是比較考慮弱小的縣市在基礎建設、人力、公共服務的需求上面,我們給予相關的一個補助至於指標要納入哪些因素,事實上可由地方政府跟中央一起再來談一談"},{"start":6783.078,"end":6805.356,"text":"其實我要來談一下財政支出的全責劃分我覺得也應該在這樣的一個修法機會裡面一併討論我們都知道財政有收入跟支出他們是一體兩面的所以當地方財政的收入增加的時候地方政府支出的責任老實說也應該要連帶提升"},{"start":6808.902,"end":6835.789,"text":"那所以呢財政支出的權責劃分在這一次的修法裡面應該會是要是一個很重要的一個部分那舉例來講呢如果中央政府對地方的各種支出項目補助的額度到底我要不要調整那其次呢如果中央政府的收入來源減少那中央政府的權責是不是也應該要同步調整"},{"start":6837.13,"end":6852.301,"text":"那如果地方政府已經體認到了中央政府的錢變少了那這些責任是不是也應該要回到地方上面來所以這個財政制度的全責劃分在這一次的修法我覺得需要稍微考慮看看"},{"start":6853.65,"end":6880.304,"text":"最後就是擴大中央統籌分配款的來源這一項理想上我們的稅收就是這樣當然它有各樣的機率的一些措施但是我們希望能夠達到是整個系統它的效益能夠最大整個系統是包含什麼整個系統是包含了中央政府以及地方政府"},{"start":6881.464,"end":6907.469,"text":"中央政府的考量當然是反映了整個中央的利益國家的發展地方政府的考量是反映了各個地區的發展需求所以針對這點有大概兩點跟大家來做一個討論第一個就是我們在進行這樣的分配的時候還是要去考慮到中央財政的穩健"},{"start":6909.216,"end":6920.752,"text":"特別是財政穩健目標是中央政府根據經濟情勢跟發展需求來制定的事實上我們要確保中央政府有足夠的財源來面對潛在的國安跟經濟風險"},{"start":6925.277,"end":6943.569,"text":"其實我們也必須考慮一下地方上面我們這個分配的時候該怎麼分配那比方說直轄市的人獲得的財政資源跟其他縣市地方政府所獲得財政資源如果差距到某種程度的時候我們是不是應該也要有一個很良好的機制來做一個轉換"},{"start":6947.211,"end":6971.765,"text":"整體來講我們發現整個的修法涉及到的不單單只是財政收支劃分法事實上它也有部分涉及到地方制度法公債法地方稅法通則事實上也會涉及到裡面所以如果有機會的話我們也建議一併納入檢討讓大家有更充分討論的空間以上"},{"start":6974.307,"end":6976.389,"text":"蔡群立教授"},{"start":7006.21,"end":7020.604,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有就各位先進大家好那我也是很榮幸能夠來參與這個財劃法的這個公聽會那我有就是拜讀的就是我們各個"},{"start":7022.085,"end":7023.426,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第1次公聽會議"},{"start":7039.071,"end":7064.982,"text":"政府的一個自治的精神還有強調需要有地方政府的一個自主性還有希望能夠有足夠的地方的一個裁員以縮短這個所謂的這個縣市的一個城鄉的一個差距發展那我想也很多的縣市也會關心到就是說自己的一個縣市對於稅收的貢獻非常多但是卻發現就是收入的一個不對稱的一個問題"},{"start":7067.143,"end":7067.283,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7088.53,"end":7091.012,"text":"政務支出、國防支出、教育、科學、文化、經濟發展、社會福利支出"},{"start":7108.563,"end":7116.731,"text":"社區發展及環境保護支出、退休輔助支出、債務支出、一般補助支出過去從2013年度到2012年度各項目支出的項目在稅出比例相當具有穩定性"},{"start":7133.667,"end":7134.107,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7159.168,"end":7185.04,"text":"在這邊的話我想要特別提出來就是以112年度來看的話其中在這九個支出裡面社會福利支出的話在27%那所謂的教育在第二個是教育科學的文化支出占19%那第三個的話最多的稅出比例的話是經濟發展的支出占18%那換言之呢我想"},{"start":7186.681,"end":7206.004,"text":"整個一個我想在立法院在審查這樣子一個預算的話是相當重視人民的一個社會福利還有教育科學還有經濟一個發展的一個支出那如果說所以我今天想要從一個支出面的一個想要關心這個議題上面就是說今天如果說在於"},{"start":7208.266,"end":7232.599,"text":"中央跟地方的一個財源的一個比例上面的改變的話那這樣子的話如果說是中央的一個財源減少的話相對來講的話可能在於社會福利的一個支出教育科學的一個支出跟經濟的一個發展的支出的話同時可能也會變少那相對來講的話如果是這樣變少的話我不知道就是說對於一般"},{"start":7233.9,"end":7234.02,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7256.209,"end":7274.711,"text":"如果說今天把中央跟所謂的地方的一個財源的一個支出的一個比例有所改變的話可能我覺得可能也確實是要在所謂的地方制度的一個第二屆的一個地方自治的一個事項還有地方的一個稅法可能必須要跟財發法一起來做一併的考量"},{"start":7281.925,"end":7298.175,"text":"如果今天所謂的這個我們把中央跟地方的這個財源的比例做了一個改變換句話就是說假設呢因應到各個委員所關心的一個議題就是希望能夠把地方的這個財源增加"},{"start":7298.675,"end":7298.795,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7316.317,"end":7316.677,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":7339.339,"end":7339.499,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7359.992,"end":7362.013,"text":"中央稅收減少、國家基礎建設、總體建設減少會不會產生對於整個總體環境的改變?"},{"start":7377.179,"end":7405.069,"text":"那另外一個就比如說我看一樣的話整個經濟支出的話比如說穩定的供電的一個系統一個建設在一個很大的一個比例那比如說在支出部分的話還有國家語言發展法勞工保險教育補助或者是住宅一個效能的一個提升這對我來講看起來都是比較像是中央在一個統一的政策那換言之就是說如果說今天"},{"start":7406.349,"end":7406.529,"text":"當這個比例改變的時候"},{"start":7422.245,"end":7422.285,"text":"主席"},{"start":7452.045,"end":7452.185,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7475.225,"end":7476.046,"text":"謝謝蔡群立、蔡教授"},{"start":7501.874,"end":7518.562,"text":"接著學者專家的部分請最後一位台灣大學法律學院教授柯格中那等一下因為我們通知12點半時間到如果說教授有其他事要離開可以先行離開謝謝"},{"start":7529.067,"end":7557.275,"text":"謝謝主席羅委員還有各位委員各級機關的代表還有在座各位學者專家女士先生們大家好那我今天就關於財劃法的修法的部分因為我其實有提供那個簡單的PPT那我想我就按照PPT的內容大概簡單跟各位這個與會的各位先女士先生們做一個簡單報告下一頁"},{"start":7557.975,"end":7579.912,"text":"那我先做一下財劃法目前的現況盤點因為我們大概要修法的話可能要先了解一下大概問題會出在哪裡第一個我簡單講一下說這個財劃法目前的狀態是不是會形成一個中央集權跟集權的現象"},{"start":7581.013,"end":7596.199,"text":"那簡單來講這個答案是對的但我必須要講說極權跟極權這不代表違法濫用這是另外一回事情那我就舉一個例子就是說因為我們財化法目前的規定第8條第1項跟第8條第12項分別規定的國稅跟地方稅民國88年的時候我們當時候營業稅有那個總繳跟分繳的爭議"},{"start":7605.822,"end":7634.9,"text":"我只要把12條的第一項第一款營業稅把它搬到第8條第一項第4款立刻就從地方稅變國稅他其他法律都不用動喔營業稅法都不用動這是當時的背景所以我只是說從這個客觀事項你可以看得出來立法院只要想要動國稅跟地方稅的任何一個稅目他其實透過財化法規定一個條你就把它動過來的"},{"start":7635.72,"end":7638.681,"text":"中央取得當時是地方最重要的自治稅捐的來源叫營業稅營業稅被拿掉以後才變成土增稅這個是必須要從那個歷史背景脈絡去看"},{"start":7656.087,"end":7671.81,"text":"第二件事情同樣透過立法形成第8條第2項到第4項以及第12條第2項到第6項的規定這個地方我提出來這個條文規定其實是有利於直轄市跟省轄市"},{"start":7673.339,"end":7697.114,"text":"你知道為什麼嗎?我就舉那個遺產稅做例子張化縣大春鄉最近幾年有一個遺產稅正新輪胎董事長跟董娘的過世你知道這個遺產稅發下來以後是怎麼樣徵啊?大春拿八成其他兩成留給中央張化什麼都分不到"},{"start":7698.178,"end":7710.768,"text":"這件事情你就會看得出來但是如果這個事情是發生在臺北市呢臺北市可以拿五層中央拿五層各位知道我的意思嗎就是說在這個地方我們是水平來比"},{"start":7712.891,"end":7734.508,"text":"縣會在遺產證與稅的分配裡面他一毛錢都拿不到直轄市跟省轄市沒有這個問題像新竹市跟基隆市沒有這個問題因為它下面沒有鄉鎮市可是遺產證與稅就會在縣裡面產生這個問題我再舉第二個例子契稅跟娛樂稅你去看我們的財劃法第12條的第5項跟第6項規定"},{"start":7738.243,"end":7765.103,"text":"看起來是地方的稅收本來應該在直轄市跟省轄市是他們可以收進來的哦契稅其實也沒有多少當時候蘇院長那時候還本來有在討論要不要改那個契稅的問題結果契稅是80%給誰?給徵企的鄉鎮市然後20%由縣統籌分配給鄉鎮市答案是縣也是一毛都分不到"},{"start":7767.361,"end":7795.708,"text":"娛樂稅百分之百全部都給徵起的鄉鎮市所以這個地方形成第二個問題現象城市型的地方自治團體比較有利這就是為什麼大家搶進六都的原因因為很簡單我不用再分下去我如果以彰化縣作為一個例子來做說明的話那我可以留在我彰化縣做一個統籌的我要做什麼基礎設施我也可以統籌但錢分下去你就是不能動"},{"start":7796.568,"end":7823.965,"text":"因為這個地方就是涉及到我們的地方制度法裡面把那個自治層級裡面分成了直轄市跟省然後第二級的縣市然後還有第三級的鄉鎮市這個如果委員們考慮這個問題的話我相信不會是只有垂池分配還有水平分配的問題第三個剛剛其實前面有委員提到財化法是沒有憲法未接的標準跟基本原則啦"},{"start":7824.685,"end":7845.512,"text":"但其實不是說完全沒有,它只是放在我們的財劃法第16條的第一項規定那個地方其實我有用一個比較簡單的、比較通俗的,其實財權劃分不是沒有基本原則你如果去看其他先進國家,財權是跟事權掛在一起的,要做事情當然要有錢"},{"start":7847.112,"end":7875.85,"text":"這事情要有人要有錢他才可以做所以財權的劃分他基本上是透過財劃法的規定本來理論上是要去扣地方制度法你要做什麼事情你說要做多少事情其實我們歷年的預算都可以攤出來在這裡面不是沒有標準只是我們財劃法跟治法我們兩套法律的立法向來是各行其事沒有把它連結在一起只有一個蠻弱的一個條件是在財劃法第16條"},{"start":7877.111,"end":7879.974,"text":"財務的支出收入要對應嗎?所以德國人他就講說事務支出收入要配合在一起"},{"start":7896.814,"end":7912.542,"text":"錢是這樣分的 因為做事情你總是不能讓人家巧婦難為無米之炊這個是 我要講就財權方面不是在講啊大家搶餅餅大餅小的問題是大家是中央地方夥伴關係"},{"start":7913.382,"end":7936.493,"text":"做事情本來就是你做事情你給他什麼樣子的你希望他做什麼事情你要給人家一個該有的財源劃分標準是這樣才能夠建立一個客觀明確可被依循的標準不然大家都用政治思維角度考慮的話我個人是認為這有點可惜啊然後最後面我講一個工具的"},{"start":7937.433,"end":7964.327,"text":"使用的問題齁因為其實財政部也沒有說真的是獨佔全部的財源他在制度的操作上他是你在劃分的時候劃不夠我用統籌分配稅款先給你補上來然後第二層次他再用那個所謂的補助款就是一般型補助款或是專案補助款或是計畫型補助款那我只是要講一下因為補助這個事情比較沒有法律上的依據啦"},{"start":7965.527,"end":7987.004,"text":"補助其實它原來的用意是政策性補助因為中央可能會有一些政策它希望你配合比如說舉個簡單例子來講它希望你們自己蓋一些捷運設施那我要給你這筆錢通常會希望你也要有一個自籌款項你不夠那我就支援你這樣一個政策上的補助所以它是有特定目的的"},{"start":7987.805,"end":8009.134,"text":"但今天我們要談論的問題是我們如何透過我們國家既有的這些稅收能夠去做合理的劃分讓至少地方自治團體為了要滿足事務商的需求他是有足夠的至少一定程度上的經費去完成這個工作這個才是基本上不是黨派考量"},{"start":8009.494,"end":8010.494,"text":"科格宗科教授"},{"start":8040.658,"end":8066.189,"text":"我們今天的公聽會其實與會的專家學者都有準備充分的書面資料有需要的可以再跟蔡委會這邊來拿另外就是現場的與會人員因為也12點多了請一邊用餐不要客氣那因為符合時代潮流就是要充分討論"},{"start":8067.589,"end":8079.295,"text":"好 我們就充分討論 讓所有的委員講到今天發言完畢 我們會議才結束不要客氣 好不好 盡量講下一位請立委 牛許廷謝謝主席"},{"start":8089.698,"end":8118.097,"text":"財政收支劃分法上一次修法是民國88年 超過20幾年沒有修正那麼2022年的7月 時任民進黨主席蘇貞昌率領6個民進黨縣市代表包含台南市長賴清德 嘉義市長張花冠 雲林縣長蘇志芬屏東縣長曹啟宏 高雄市副市長李永德 宜蘭縣副縣長吳哲成以及民進黨黨團總召柯建民 幹事長潘孟安 召開記者會說真抱歉 我們就是這麼窮要求當初的國民黨政府儘速通過財政收支劃分法的修正"},{"start":8119.177,"end":8136.452,"text":"當初我蘇貞昌的內容講說人應該生而平等站在台灣因為出生在不同的縣市有不公平不平等還不是因為山川地理的限制是因為中央主政者用制度用法律用資源分配造成的不平等而且越來越不平等就算立法院做成決議也不處理"},{"start":8138.134,"end":8158.968,"text":"20109年修改《地質法》讓縣市合併升格時立法院就已經做出決議要求兩個月內要修正《財化法》到當初2012年已經超過三年都沒有修很遺憾喔這12年過去了還是沒有修那麼賴清德總統過去2017年擔任行政院長的時候曾經說要均衡地方發展的三個面向第一行政區重劃"},{"start":8159.468,"end":8186.578,"text":"第2修正財化法第3叫地方創生那當院長下台時都還沒有看到財化法的修正版本希望他當總統的時候可以看到財化法有個像樣的進度我們都清楚給人釣竿不如教他如何釣魚中央向大家長縣市政府向他的小孩要真正當大人不是通通把錢給父母由父母來分配而是小孩要自己學著管理財政自己學著面對問題"},{"start":8188.138,"end":8206.938,"text":"我們也知道巧複難為無米之炊地方政府沒有充足的財政收入那怎麼樣去調整產業結構怎麼樣注意收支平衡我們更不希望財政支出黑箱化每次都跟中央用喬的這裡搶資源那裡搶資源而導致各縣市間產生不公平的情況"},{"start":8208.66,"end":8231.301,"text":"應該讓這個有能力的縣市得到多資源若是縣市尋求中央的協助我想才是正辦這也是為什麼我們希望財政收支劃分法能夠修正的重要的原因這個財務法的修正是活絡縣市發展的重要法案也是落實地方政治的里程碑民進黨在野的時候曾經大聲呼籲如今執政希望趕快兌現這是本期要講的第一個重點"},{"start":8232.122,"end":8257.604,"text":"第二個重點是我們剛剛很多學者也討論到集錢集權的這個遊戲規則它的政策效果我們必須要說目前的機制缺乏公平性國庫國稅的收入超過3兆但地方分配的資源從10年前的35%到今年只降到28%是為垂直不均而其中直轄市又比縣市分配到多許多只為水平不均"},{"start":8259.846,"end":8277.26,"text":"財政收支劃分分配就是要讓中央主導米平城鄉差距米平區域發展不均衡的問題可是現況觀之我們過去這麼長時間20幾年都使用這樣子的一套遊戲規則請問政策效果何在我們真的有平衡城鄉差距嗎"},{"start":8278.513,"end":8306.586,"text":"看起來是沒有嘛看起來人口還是往六都拼命的集中偏鄉的時候不是人口流失就是人口老化顯然這一套集錢的遊戲規則沒有辦法拉近區域間發展的不公平不正義那為什麼不換一個思維給予地方政府更多的財政權限呢讓相對優勢的直轄市有更好的財政自主權讓相對弱勢的縣市得到更多中央的補助也許是一條可以走的出路這是我們講的第二個重點"},{"start":8307.446,"end":8325.67,"text":"第三個重點我們歷任財政部長都講說要修正這個法令想要達成全國所有地方政府的共識但是大家都清楚要達成共識那需要時間誰知道當政府終於達成共識的時候這些地方政府還撐不撐得下去我作為桃園的民意代表幫桃園講講話我們桃園最晚升格"},{"start":8328.351,"end":8343.261,"text":"在分配的戰略位置上其實是非常非常不利的簡單來說五都把餅都分完了我們才升格所以常常不管是統籌分配稅或者是一般補助款我們都叫萬年老六六都最末那在這個"},{"start":8344.898,"end":8345.358,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正"},{"start":8361.892,"end":8387.446,"text":"後來經過國民黨黨團統整各個縣市再也縣市的這個版本之後我們財政局長主動告訴我他說這個部分我們就不再堅持了為什麼因為要統整各縣市的共識本身就是一件非常艱鉅的工程我們主張工業其他人主張農業其他人主張老人到最後沒完沒了無法達成共識所以這是國民黨版本可貴之處在於至少在地方已經做了初步的版本統合"},{"start":8388.587,"end":8409.3,"text":"我們作為桃園人我們都願意妥協這國民黨的版本橫跨16個縣市財政局的大抵共識橫跨了城、鄉、離島其實已經具備了中華民國一定的代表性所以我們希望已經有初步共識了這樣子的法律修正更不應該再等"},{"start":8410.22,"end":8432.211,"text":"希望財政部可以好好成全我們所有的立法委員都會希望財化法趕快進行修正還給地方公平正義讓各地政府有更高的財政自主權能夠大展拳腳 促進地方自治的品質以上 謝謝好 謝謝 牛許廷 牛委員接著請王美惠 王委員"},{"start":8439.884,"end":8456.311,"text":"主席 大家 專家大家好 跟我們各縣市我們的主管或是副市長 副縣長跟我們在座我們的同仁 大家好在這兩天 我覺得今天的工作財政"},{"start":8458.133,"end":8470.565,"text":"財政收支劃分法的時候今天我認為表達的就是一定要去照顧任何官司的財政和財政因為我覺得普通"},{"start":8476.543,"end":8491.977,"text":"雖然說很久沒去修、沒去做什麼,我們不能說因為很久沒去修,我們跟立法院說不用修尤其我來自自己家,因為說實在,我們經常,我是有議員"},{"start":8496.178,"end":8496.198,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8516.526,"end":8517.887,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":8543.152,"end":8545.393,"text":"財政發分法的事 我覺得有需要大家要探討一下 要做一下因為這二十幾年來 我看到"},{"start":8556.38,"end":8577.7,"text":"您所有的資料本身有看到很多關切的以我自己來說因為我自己沒有兄弟我自己有姑娘所以在分配的當中自己分配都是最重要的雖然我們做一個"},{"start":8582.701,"end":8597.073,"text":"市長也好 館長也好 都希望簽簽還簽的當中 沒看到中央公平的眼神所以這是非常困難 我覺得"},{"start":8598.914,"end":8607.017,"text":"不公平在這 常常我們都說 叫立法院那邊去跟立法院分辨多 跟分到多少 到有多少在這裡修所在 因為我認為我們要讓修所在也有競爭力 也有主權 所以說 普通在本社所說的就是"},{"start":8625.157,"end":8637.767,"text":"最主要﹐讓受討伺的人﹐也有尊重的空間尤其是高利貸﹐你看到高利貸﹐高利貸現在漸漸的發展﹐但不是高利貸沒有認證﹐高利貸﹐包括市長﹐市長帶領和所有的負責也很認真﹐但經常﹐他要建設的時候﹐"},{"start":8655.239,"end":8664.595,"text":"都要他的配合款﹚所以在這個會期內﹚承擔很多建設的配合款的錢﹚都是非常無價"},{"start":8668.692,"end":8673.554,"text":"所以我也願意在未來修法時﹐可以讓自己再發生的阻礙因為在自己來說﹐法官司都有兄弟來分配﹐"},{"start":8685.538,"end":8686.179,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8707.619,"end":8708.28,"text":"在此,我們有特別的同仇款應該是結束後,應該若存,還要分給當地"},{"start":8718.684,"end":8738.199,"text":"的地方兼是以秩序和修立所以這才可以解決他們財政的問題所以我希望我們的中央如果要做什麼建設應該是中央要做中央出資不然你如果像高利貸來說"},{"start":8740.041,"end":8744.586,"text":"請提督告知 每天都說要錢要配合 配合之後 地方要再負擔很多所以我希望未來的財政 能夠對各縣市財政一個劃分 因為我認為是我們國會的利益"},{"start":8761.598,"end":8770.692,"text":"不只是自己的事是每一位我們都要照顧到也不只分到最後差距越來越大以上謝謝"},{"start":8777.345,"end":8793.575,"text":"很感謝王美惠、王委員、嘉義市很辛苦的,大家盡量到三天盡處一會因為王市長有幾百個電話號碼,每次找我他說他的困難很多,我們共同來關心,為嘉義市加油,謝謝接著請林思明林委員新竹縣加油"},{"start":8810.271,"end":8824.542,"text":"好謝謝我們主席各位與會的各位學者專家還有我們各位委員財政部莊部長以及各縣市的各位代表大家好我想這個財政收支劃分法"},{"start":8826.016,"end":8840.63,"text":"從民國88年修正到現在已經25年未做任何的修正了我們相較當時的未配合精神而公佈實行的地方制度法"},{"start":8841.491,"end":8867.739,"text":"都已經修正了14次行政區劃早已從2都22個縣市現在修訂為6都16個縣市所以我們的財政收支劃分法實在已經不具有中央補助地方的精神與成效而有加以適時的修正的必要"},{"start":8869.261,"end":8890.481,"text":"那我想這樣的完全適合的分配機制不僅無法協助我們各個地方政府解決長期財源偏低與債務負債的問題也更加拉鋸大城鄉區域間的發展差異所以我在這一次我有提出了修法的版本"},{"start":8891.442,"end":8898.764,"text":"國稅與地方稅的部分的修改重點包含將營業稅總收入與減除依法提撥之統一發票給獎的獎金後的全部餘額由中央統籌分配給地方政府"},{"start":8913.149,"end":8926.971,"text":"也刪除現行應繳給中央統籌分配給各縣市的20%的土地增值稅條文將土地增值稅稅收改為全部歸直轄縣市"},{"start":8928.76,"end":8942.697,"text":"此外,我們也沒有忽略離島縣市的需求,也提案將金門及連江二線徵得的菸酒稅收入改為在減除1%作為積增以及查緝經費後的80%分配給各該縣"},{"start":8946.96,"end":8972.572,"text":"而中央統籌分配稅款也應該以總額的98%列為普通統籌分配稅款並且也要根據合理的公式做透明化的分配關於區域制建設計畫或合作事項亦應優先予以補助或其他必要之協助讓我們各地方能夠更均衡的發展"},{"start":8974.213,"end":8985.54,"text":"我們有看到許多委員的提案但是我比較遺憾的就是我們財政部針對各委員的版本說那個也不行這個也不對"},{"start":8988.37,"end":9009.831,"text":"繼續拖延所以我在這邊要建議財政部財政部我希望你不要說只動腦不想動腦提出修法的版本那如果說你要繼續批評我們各委員會各委員的版本那為何不利用各委員提案的內容去整合出一個可以討論的方向或者是版本"},{"start":9011.041,"end":9025.391,"text":"甚至我也建議可以將2017年當時的行政院林全院長已經準備好的版本重新拿出來這個也可以啊所以我請財政部要去思考"},{"start":9026.305,"end":9026.385,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":9042.492,"end":9068.786,"text":"那我以我新竹縣為例新竹縣是我們繳稅最多的一個縣新竹縣的發展也特別的快因為新竹縣我們有很多的科技的產業園區當然有AI智慧園區有鳳山工業園區有新竹的虎口工業園區有台元科技園區還有竹科台積電的二三級也在我們新竹縣"},{"start":9070.051,"end":9088.177,"text":"所以新竹縣可以說繳稅真的是非常非常的多但是我要在這邊跟大家報告新竹縣各位猜一猜新竹縣分配到的統籌分配稅款只有多少新竹縣快60萬人口新竹縣只分配到55.77億"},{"start":9091.468,"end":9115,"text":"全國報數第一名阿全國人均最少的不到一萬塊其他各縣市都超過一萬塊新竹縣只有九千多塊所以可見這個統籌分配稅款對新竹縣來講或者剛才王美惠講的嘉義市是多麼的不合理所以我希望說財政部能盡速"},{"start":9116.314,"end":9134.853,"text":"就今天這個公聽會各專家學者的意見以及我們所有立委提出的相關的修法的一個建議希望財政部能夠採納最好財政部你就提出一個我們的公版或者你提出一個公式到底我們財化法要怎麼修"},{"start":9136.53,"end":9148.005,"text":"請財政部真的要積極加快腳步因為這個財化法如果不修我想這種惡性的循環各縣市叫苦連天會不斷的循環的上演"},{"start":9152.23,"end":9165.761,"text":"大家會一直呼籲說財劃法要來修正所以以上建議財政部也積極加快的就財劃法的修正能夠有更好的一個修正的一個版本以上 謝謝"},{"start":9176.226,"end":9190.105,"text":"林詩明 林委員 因為新竹縣是相對也是很辛苦的也請大家多多來支持新竹縣 為新竹縣加油接著請楊瓊英 楊委員"},{"start":9195.632,"end":9195.652,"text":"楊瓊玉"},{"start":9216.923,"end":9217.403,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":9239.452,"end":9240.513,"text":"中央分配 中央提60% 地方拿40% 之後中央分"},{"start":9267.333,"end":9285.938,"text":"分配給地方的補助款就逐年再下降地方分配只剩下25%多15%再回歸給中央造成縣市自有裁員的不足而且預算的短差在過去的10年國稅的成長成長了多少成長了104%地方的稅只成長多少"},{"start":9290.859,"end":9291.499,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":9310.666,"end":9311.567,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":9329.298,"end":9348.575,"text":"城市發展 都市轉型 淨零碳排 這些重責大任在自治事項裡頭 跟委辦的事項也逐年的一直在膨脹但攸關的中央跟地方財政分配的財劃法卻沿用的舊有的財政規劃實在是難以來承擔 擔起新世紀的一個挑戰"},{"start":9355.521,"end":9359.384,"text":"所以我們看到中央政府在111年裡頭國家總收入 達到多少 達到了3.20兆國稅的部分有2.82兆元 佔的佔比是85%地方的稅收僅有多少 4047億元 佔比15%"},{"start":9375.676,"end":9381.041,"text":"中央給地方的統籌分配款上面補加上喔還要再加上補助稅款來看在112年去年度裡頭只有佔多少 佔28.1%"},{"start":9393.474,"end":9394.775,"text":"中央給地方統籌分配款逐年降低"},{"start":9414.311,"end":9441.965,"text":"並越做越大的時候但是它的分配比例是不增反減這個邏輯太奇怪了中央超增竟然補助給地方的是不增反減地方政府為了要配合中央政府的施政事項越來越多所以因此地方財務卻沒有增加的情況之下地方政府我們要如何的來協助中央政府推動的國家政策呢"},{"start":9442.705,"end":9467.944,"text":"所以我在這邊要特別本席提出財政是輸政之母地方政府缺乏健全的財政來作為後盾導致一切的施政都是無法展開的情況之下為了要建設地方必須仰賴中央的筆息關係好一點就多給一點關係差一點就以公式來分配"},{"start":9468.844,"end":9496.837,"text":"給多少都要看行政院的心情這樣的做法不利於整個地方財政的一個規劃導致窮縣會越來越窮人口外流也會越來越嚴重這都是全國民眾所必須要負擔的那財政草案分法已經超過了25年未修正中央應該要聽進去地方政府的心聲"},{"start":9497.777,"end":9525.808,"text":"事出財源改善集權集錢的這個現象考慮中央財政耐性之餘也要將地方財政的需求納入考量第一則可避免中央繼續的偏私濫權二則可讓地方掌控更多的自主發展的一個主機這一點是非常重要所以以上是本席的一個建言也敬請大家來參佐 謝謝"},{"start":9531.738,"end":9540.389,"text":"感謝臺中市的楊瓊英 楊委員因為未來臺中市的發展也非常重要"},{"start":9541.977,"end":9559.394,"text":"各式的建設都大幅的推動今天的投資是為了明天的成長所以也請各位委員給臺中市多多的支持多多的爭取多多的愛護謝謝楊秋英 楊委員"},{"start":9564.2,"end":9591.059,"text":"下一位是羅敏草委員發言我就在上面講幾句話因為時間的關係其實政治最重要就是要和諧地方要的就是要進步國家的未來發展就是經濟要蓬勃的發展這幾天我們看到NVIDIA的黃仁勛"},{"start":9593.141,"end":9619.766,"text":"黃董事長他來台灣台灣我們很高興可是台灣的未來他為什麼會選擇在台灣我們要讓城鄉的發展在高雄也好在台中也好每個地方都應該要大幅度的起飛我都曾經還建議過NVIDIA的亞洲區的總裁"},{"start":9620.726,"end":9644.923,"text":"我問你可不可以把NVIDIA的總部或者是現在6月7號大概一分十可不可以有一些股票在台灣上市或者是有更大的未來AI的計畫可以落腳在台灣那要怎麼做當然是要讓台灣均衡的發展每個地方都搶起來都富起來"},{"start":9646.55,"end":9671.237,"text":"所以今天本席在這裡召開這樣的會議那麼多的委員那麼多的專家學者所講的建議我不但通通接受我還繼續要努力來達成大家全民的願望在這裡要代表全民向財政部莊部長大聲喊話25年了"},{"start":9672.847,"end":9695.2,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九部長我們還要等多久拜託拜託拜託所以我最後就是幾句話最重要的重點講三次莊部長加油莊部長加油莊部長加油"},{"start":9696.525,"end":9725.495,"text":"公聽會你如果覺得有需要的話因為我以前是跑馬拉松的我是不斷電的我奉陪到底一天兩天我都可以但是你還是要有版本提出來因為這個立法院的運作二三十年來大家都很清楚該討論的我們已經清楚的表達清楚的討論大概講來講去都是大概這樣子結論就是一個這地方缺錢"},{"start":9727.216,"end":9747.202,"text":"解決的方法很簡單中央就合理的給錢就OK啦不要不給不理會版本不提出那就是繼續大家又在對抗所以我剛講的那幾句話也請部長聽進去政治要和諧地方要發展經濟要進步謝謝接下來請高金樹梅委員發言"},{"start":9761.355,"end":9778.837,"text":"謝謝主席辛苦了也謝謝今天在場的所有公聽會的各部會的還有專家學者們我覺得今天主席來開這個公聽會就是聽大家的意見剛剛您的議席話本席也聽到了我覺得非常的有道理但是我身為一個原住民的立法委員"},{"start":9780.67,"end":9781.371,"text":"原住民立法委員"},{"start":9802.853,"end":9827.929,"text":"也能夠好好聽一下這個民主是我國立國的根本我們用選舉的方式然後呢多數人來決定同時呢也要尊重個人跟少數人的權利為原則這個叫做民主但是呢也因為民主選舉的制度也造成了自然資源或者是我們的財政資源自然而然它就往人多的地方去挹注"},{"start":9829.17,"end":9846.43,"text":"相對的人少的鄉市鎮區就會變得非常窮困而因為沒有稅收收入的我講的是六都的三地原住民區更是苦不堪言我們目前沒有一個橫貧的制度"},{"start":9847.131,"end":9848.512,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":9863.413,"end":9887.783,"text":"我看到的是我們的政府以來長期忽視了原住民族這個民族的存在的事實而且呢用所謂的地方制度法來切割各原住民族的族別就如我自己所屬的泰雅族可能大家不太知道我屬的泰雅族呢就被切割在7個縣市的12個鄉鎮市區所以"},{"start":9892.085,"end":9910.282,"text":"以足的未來的文化各方面來說的話它其實被裂解、被切割的跟別談我們的政府也支持原住民族的自治如果在今天我們所謂的財政收支劃分法裡面"},{"start":9914.787,"end":9922.357,"text":"長期以來,地方制度法或財政收支劃分法將會把原住民族切割不成樣子"},{"start":9923.708,"end":9950.251,"text":"我為什麼說地方制度法對於原住民族而言它是一個災難呢我們先看一下在2010年的時候在2010年的時候我們為了要配合直轄市的改制因此六都的三地原住民區它就曾經被迫喪失了它的自治地位這導致了一個民族卻有兩套地方自治的制度"},{"start":9951.172,"end":9951.192,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9970.939,"end":9997.806,"text":"陶淵不管是在新北不管是在這個高雄台中地區我們有六個都我們回復了我們的參政權可是呢當時呢是在各黨團折衝的這個快速的這個的這個的結果之下呢六都三地原住民的財政區四項我們就缺少了稅收收入來源的項目"},{"start":9999.301,"end":10014.275,"text":"也因此地方制度法對六都三地原住民區產生了財政上的不公平怎麼樣不公平嗎因為六都三地原民區沒有自主財源它只能依據地方制度法第83條之7由直轄市來受算"},{"start":10018.699,"end":10036.21,"text":"補助給六都的三地原住民區然後用這個來維持改制前的統籌分配財源的水準可是呢 補助的額度卻是任憑直轄市政府他自己的意願來編列這是事實"},{"start":10038.932,"end":10055.149,"text":"另外我也看到了中央統籌分配稅款的分配辦法對於55個原住民族地區的財政分配的困境我們先來看直轄市的普通統籌稅款如果按照各項指標的競爭來決定分配的額度的話土地面積市佔20%這是直轄市的"},{"start":10060.655,"end":10060.675,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10079.165,"end":10093.941,"text":"然而我們的高雄市政府用這個所謂的土地面積他跟中央爭取到了統籌分配稅款可是他沒有按照同等的比例來回饋高雄市的這三個園鄉區"},{"start":10096.843,"end":10122.937,"text":"同樣的一般的縣市也是利用原鄉的土地的面積在中央取到了統籌分配稅款之後實際回到了地方政府他也沒有按照土地面積來給足其他鄉同樣額度的分配款我講到這個大家應該都在點頭了我看到足記中央在點頭了你們都很清楚我們的所謂的中央"},{"start":10123.957,"end":10147.716,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款有幾個比例土地直轄市土地是在20%一般縣市是在35%可是這些地方政府拿了這樣子的資源分配的這個比例去跟中央要錢可是中央回到地方上來的時候卻沒有按照土地面積給應該要有的原鄉地區"},{"start":10148.757,"end":10166.164,"text":"如果按照這樣子的比例來說﹖不管是我們六都的山地區﹖或者是一般原住民鄉鎮﹖他要分配到的統籌分款﹖不會像現在這樣子的一個額度因此各縣市政府在講財源不公平的同時﹖請你們也回過頭來想一想﹖你們對於一般鄉鎮﹖"},{"start":10170.126,"end":10170.146,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10191.883,"end":10215.816,"text":"然後來研議合理的分配方案然後來規劃實質的平等的財政制度這樣子才會符合憲法徵修條文的精神跟原住民族轉型正義的目的我很高興今天代表原住民的族人在這邊幫我們55個原鄉包括六都的原住民區來這邊把他們的聲音告訴在場的各位"},{"start":10216.576,"end":10243.082,"text":"行政部門以及專家學者也請召委下次我們要來提到這個要來這個這個修正財政收支劃分法的時候一定要把這個土地的面積好好的講一下然後並且也要求地方政府按照他們如何跟中央爭取的比例就應該按照怎麼樣的比例分配給這個所謂的鄉鎮市政府以上我的發言謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10245.901,"end":10264.099,"text":"謝謝高金素美委員也希望剛剛的花園部長應該也都聽進去了多多來照顧我們所有園鄉的朋友真的是很辛苦啊平均的壽命也比較少一點"},{"start":10265.438,"end":10265.758,"text":"主席"},{"start":10285.832,"end":10301.319,"text":"對,速度很快反而這個2300萬人的大家熬待補的經費的問題希望速度更快一點多多照顧一下上次幾個版本算起來需要的大概就是2600多億國民黨的黨版是大概有5777億那民眾黨的部分大概是2700億"},{"start":10307.563,"end":10322.148,"text":"對中央來講都是為乎其為啦我都跟部長講缺錢你來找我嘛因為我手上有很多的檢舉信啊移政稅的啦還有很多的地的這個國有地可以處理的那個一下子都五千億八千億"},{"start":10325.536,"end":10352.392,"text":"對,我們稅收年年超徵希望大家一起來努力加油,謝謝感謝,謝謝高金素美的委員那因為我們現在充分討論當然還沒有委員還沒發言的可以趕快過來發言因為我們就是不斷電的討論充分的發言讓大家講夠、講足這就是很開放的"},{"start":10353.112,"end":10358.216,"text":"而不曉得現場或者是院內還沒有委員要發言的可以趕快來發言有沒有委員要發言都沒有人要發言了齁我們都充分的討論了齁接著因為大家都發言完畢請行政機關回應請財政部莊部長"},{"start":10390.194,"end":10394.188,"text":"主席、各位委員以及我們各地方政府的財政夥伴們"},{"start":10395.32,"end":10422.258,"text":"專家學者大家都離開了以及我們財政部還有媒體朋友們大家夥伴大家好我想非常感謝我們今天羅昭偉安排這樣的一個公聽會邀請我們各地方政府以及專家學者對有關財政收支劃分法的修正都提出意見那我也覺得很好來這邊聽我們各地方政府他們在地方的財政上實務上的一些需要"},{"start":10422.691,"end":10423.311,"text":"法律面、經濟面、行政面、各個面向"},{"start":10434.656,"end":10435.857,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":10454.708,"end":10454.988,"text":"財政部﹑財政學者們"},{"start":10482.073,"end":10484.095,"text":"請回應一下今天公聽會討論的內容"},{"start":10513.955,"end":10540.95,"text":"主席、閣委員還有各縣市的代表大家好剛剛學者其實也有提到一個修正還是要考慮到市群分配的問題如果說照國民黨的版本一下要釋出五千多億的話相對的中央的稅出可能也要減到五千多億那這個是非常非常的困難的所以後面的"},{"start":10542.068,"end":10563.389,"text":"後面的事宜我們會配合財政部檢討的結果,我們會適時提供建議以上報告好,謝謝主計總處好,那現在相關政府機關都已經做回應了還有兩位嗎?哪一位?"},{"start":10566.287,"end":10571.776,"text":"請內政部接續,國防會要回應嗎?好請內政部"},{"start":10580.483,"end":10606.093,"text":"主席各位與會先進內政部報告的確中央與地方的事權劃分是跟財源的分配是彼此聯動的今天在座的學者專家還有各位委員所提到有關於事權的檢討這一塊是有關於我們地方制度法的部分我們會帶回去做一些研議"},{"start":10607.794,"end":10617.302,"text":"日後我們也會配合財化法的相關的討論然後進行我們地方制度法看看是不是有一些配套的處理以上報告好 謝謝聶貞布接著請國家發財委員會"},{"start":10640.593,"end":10667.114,"text":"主席好﹖還有各位委員﹖還有在座的與會先進﹖跟大家午安國防會在這邊基本上很感謝今天有這個機會來這邊來聽取各﹖還有主席很感謝主席邀集各地方政府的一個代表所以聽取了很多寶貴的意見本會未來還是持續與會先尊重主政機關的一個延期意見以及到大運的決定以上報告謝謝"},{"start":10668.683,"end":10670.845,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝國發會接著我們為了要達到充分討論請問現場委員有沒有要再繼續發言的有 請吳立華吳委員其他委員如果要再繼續發言不要停繼續來登記發言到充分發言為止 謝謝"},{"start":10694.186,"end":10714.756,"text":"謝謝主席昭偉在場財政部以及各縣市局處的各位好朋友大家午安我是原住民選出來的山地原住民立法委員今天特別感謝昭偉安排這樣的一個公聽會"},{"start":10716.246,"end":10716.406,"text":"董事長"},{"start":10731.574,"end":10732.495,"text":"立法院第1會議"},{"start":10750.566,"end":10774.621,"text":"因為我們財化法我們都說他已經歷經25年從來都沒有修訂但是在這個當中地制法已經歷經了15次的修訂原住民在這個當中從過去的兩都變六都的時候有四個原鄉區他呢一度失去了公法人的地位"},{"start":10775.834,"end":10799.647,"text":"在大家嘩然之下感謝過去的立委們在2014年又把它再度修法把直轄市的園民區改回公法人可是在這個當中修法的時候有辣掉了一些東西造成現在他們的困境像我們以高雄市的桃園區為例"},{"start":10801.428,"end":10827.557,"text":"他過去改制前稅客收入70%結果呢改回來恢復公法人地位之後他的稅客收入就0取消那為什麼會這樣子最主要的原因是因為在2014年恢復公法人的時候地制法的第83條之2第一項寫得很清楚"},{"start":10828.317,"end":10846.556,"text":"準用本法關於鄉鎮市的規定他恢復了可是呢在第二款財政事項的地方他卻把過去的稅捐公共債漏掉了沒有寫那我們回去看當年的討論資料"},{"start":10849.999,"end":10865.647,"text":"財政部當年修法的時候有承諾原住民區是財政自治的黨團協商的時候也去主張可以恢復獨立自主穩定財源因此我們再細看一下"},{"start":10866.947,"end":10892.339,"text":"現在的問題是出在竟然當年地制法第83條之7他寫著這麼一段話他說直轄市改制前各該山地鄉前三年度的稅客收入平均稅客收入平均那細看我們再細看過去財政還不怎麼樣的時候我們發現"},{"start":10893.96,"end":10917.549,"text":"直轄市的園區跟一般縣市的園鄉沒有什麼差異可是這幾年當國家財政進步的時候各位可以看到這幾年我們發現他們都可以高達6000萬以上的差距而且有可能未來的差距會越來越高因此我就提出了一個修法的內容"},{"start":10918.269,"end":10918.429,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":10938.496,"end":10943.181,"text":"我們希望不要只找縣市應該要把直轄市有園民區的這些區公所要把他們請過來單獨開會聽取他們的意見並且納入修法"},{"start":10953.63,"end":10978.163,"text":"在這裡我當然也了解我必須也要在地質法裡面同步的去做修正這個部分我也是在地質法的第83條之3有把稅捐公共債的自治事項再把它納回來總之我在這個地方做這樣的一個發言就是要來呼應這一次的財化法修法"},{"start":10978.843,"end":11004.532,"text":"我覺得關於過去的這個疏漏 修法的疏漏 召委 主席還有我們的財政部 還有我們的各縣市局處希望能夠來支持 來響應 來積極的推動因為這個是最沒有爭議的部分 不需要跟大家做一個太多的討論那我做這樣的一個說明 讓大家能夠更清楚更了解 謝謝主席"},{"start":11006.254,"end":11029.132,"text":"好,謝謝吳立華吳委員好,那經過充分討論依據立法院職權刑事法第58條規定委員會因於公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反"},{"start":11030.236,"end":11051.117,"text":"意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今日與會者所有寶貴的發言意見作為未來修法之參考並會邊陳冊送交本院全體委員及今日出席"},{"start":11051.581,"end":11054.202,"text":"再次感謝各位學者、專家及政府機關代表的出席謝謝大家 散會"},{"start":11084.545,"end":11087.948,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"153660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c988f7b41e098d58ffd9b1a58893ad1259d3f1f9ccee7aa016beedc1de391cb15195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:04:09 - 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那我們現場的學者專家還有與會的官員以及各地的代表還有現場我們所有的同仁大家好我想我記得那約莫在15年前那是我在地方政府擔任政務官的時候地方政府包括台南縣政府台南市政府也好當初兩位市長都積極的想要去推動縣市合併升格"},{"start":28.314,"end":35.866,"text":"當初推動縣市合併升格的其實背後的最主要目的其實是要改變那個地方政府的這個財政能力"},{"start":36.843,"end":60.211,"text":"那地方政府財政能力確實就如同剛剛幾位專家學者所說的在京省之後呢確實受到一定程度的框架就我理解那從1999年的這個財法法修法之後就是京省前的這個財法法修法之後呢其實地方的財務對中央的這個依存度其實是越來越高相對呢自主性也相對是越來越低這是真的事實"},{"start":60.991,"end":87.56,"text":"那也是因為如此有些地方政府想要透過合併申閣的方式來改變那個地方的財政能力但是以申閣來說當初我們推動的過程當中申閣來說我們其實不只是面對財發法的問題還有面對地方制度法的問題還有面對公債法的問題而這三個法就是當初所謂號稱的申閣三法而如果透過這個申閣三法的部分才能徹底去解決這個地方政府的財政問題"},{"start":88.14,"end":88.3,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":108.59,"end":108.71,"text":"該修但不該亂修"},{"start":123.667,"end":149.368,"text":"為什麽我會這麽說呢但是你如果要牽扯到全面性的就單純一部財法法其實要修其實就不容易了這一部財法法是在整個政黨輪廓之前所設計的一個架構那中間呢歷經了整個國民黨完全執政的時候也就是說呢當初啊國民黨完全執政的時候第7屆國民黨的時候有81期立委為什麽不修那時候國民黨只有27期也就是說簡單的講不是那麽容易修啦不是不修不是"},{"start":150.089,"end":175.447,"text":"不容易修不是不修那不修跟不容易修這個差別在哪裡呢除了不是單純的只有中央垂直的分配而已還有現在水平的分配大家都會非常清楚從財化法的目的來說是要顧及整個地方的一個均衡發展顧及地方的均衡發展我也同意剛剛王煌威委員所講的所以國民黨版本增加5000多億之後每個縣市都會增加錢"},{"start":176.721,"end":176.861,"text":"郭國文"},{"start":199.6,"end":219.856,"text":"延更來說以整個京省來看之前的比例剛剛黃耀輝黃教授有提到我剛才看到一下之所以會這樣子的話其實那個稅別有所不同整個京省之後的省跟直轄市的稅別營業稅會是劃分在國稅這個比例上老實講這在中央政府來說是有平定恆進戶"},{"start":221.417,"end":247.207,"text":"但是嚴格來說地方之所會如此的話會這樣做調整當初北高的損失的部分也有提撥所得稅10%貨物稅10%所以在彌補之前修法前的一些不足的地方以至於在修法前的87年前的這個統籌費款大概是1248億修法後的這一個部分是90年的時候是1448億的這個部分原改在這邊"},{"start":248.607,"end":248.747,"text":"郭國文"},{"start":278.348,"end":282.211,"text":"國稅成長率大過於地方稅地方政府因為礙於選舉的關係沒有辦法去做調整這也是一個很根本的理由"},{"start":303.288,"end":319.461,"text":"所以我認為在這些版本當中會不會造成地方更加失衡老實說我最擔心的譬如講原來國民黨版本是多一個所督條款結果我剛剛側面聽到台北市政府今天又提了所謂的營業稅50%留在地方營業稅50%留在地方的話我看台北市政府又多了大概1000億之多"},{"start":321.803,"end":335.977,"text":"銀索稅的部分就是高雄安的版本的話銀索稅的部分應該放在地方政府要5%如果這樣的話對高雄安也比較有利每個縣市都是朝他有利的一個方向那我其實最後要講的部分才華火真的是要修"},{"start":336.798,"end":354.18,"text":"但是這有一些歷史的問題 也有一些現實的問題我覺得要修 但是真的不要急著修我想專家學者這麼多 我覺得要多辦幾次公聽會然後多幾次研討會 多一些版本我們來進行一些細緻性的對話 多一些民主的程序"},{"start":354.78,"end":354.96,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153651","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153651","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9889d86739c1301a7d9b1a58893ad1259db5dc6a9f8e8436d60385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"13:11:34 - 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修法的疏漏趙偉 主席 還有我們的財政部還有我們的各縣市局處希望能夠來支持 來響應 來積極的推動因為這個是最沒有爭議的部分不需要跟大家做一個太多的討論那我做這樣的一個說明讓大家能夠更清楚更了解 謝謝主席"},{"start":311.673,"end":312.114,"text":"經過充分討論,依據"}]}},{"id":"153649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153649","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9817994143c0189a729b1a58893ad1259db5dc6a9f8e8436d688766db62afb6ce35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:56:04 - 13:04:14","影片長度":"00:08:10","會議時間":"2024-06-05T10:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第1次公聽會（事由：召開「財政收支劃分法修正草案」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:56:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T13:04:14+08:00","duration":490,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.89409375,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.016593750000006,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.463468750000004,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.59784375000001,"end":106.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.93409375,"end":158.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.38596875000002,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.38159375,"end":233.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.50909375,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.04659375,"end":358.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.11409375,"end":419.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.59409375,"end":426.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.90096875,"end":451.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.72409375,"end":473.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.94846875,"end":474.60659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.01159375000003,"end":478.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.99409375000005,"end":479.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.63096875,"end":482.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.64721875000004,"end":487.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.31346875,"end":488.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.78159375,"end":490.55346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.97,"text":"我身為一個原住民的立法委員"},{"start":15.84,"end":15.96,"text":"主席"},{"start":38.126,"end":63.368,"text":"也能夠好好聽一下這個民主是我國立國的根本我們用選舉的方式然後呢多數人來決定同時呢也要尊重個人跟少數人的權利為原則這個叫做民主但是呢也因為民主選舉的制度也造成了自然資源或者是我們的財政資源自然而然它就往人多的地方去挹注"},{"start":64.449,"end":64.789,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":82.316,"end":83.777,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":98.669,"end":112.748,"text":"我看到的是我們的政府以來長期忽視了原住民族這個民族的存在的事實而且用所謂的地方制度法來切割各原住民族的族別"},{"start":113.649,"end":135.496,"text":"就如我自己所屬的泰雅族可能大家不太知道我屬的泰雅族就被切割在7個縣市的12個鄉鎮市區所以以族的未來的文化各方面來說的話它其實被裂解、被切割的"},{"start":136.036,"end":157.122,"text":"根別談我們的政府也支持原住民族的自治如果在今天我們所謂的財政收支劃分法裡面不用一個族的概念來看的話那麼長期以來地方制度法或者是財政收支劃分法將會把原住民族切割成不成樣子"},{"start":158.982,"end":185.524,"text":"我為什麼說地方制度法對於原住民族而言它是一個災難呢我們先看一下在2010年的時候在2010年的時候我們為了要配合直轄市的改制因此六都的三地原住民區它就曾經被迫喪失了它的自治地位這導致了一個民族卻有兩套地方自治的制度"},{"start":186.305,"end":186.565,"text":"公聽委員：高金素梅"},{"start":206.209,"end":233.079,"text":"陶淵不管是在新北不管是在這個高雄台中地區我們有六個都我們回復了我們的參政權可是呢當時呢是在各黨團折衝的這個快速的這個的這個的結果之下呢六都三地原住民的財政區四項我們就缺少了稅收收入來源的項目"},{"start":234.574,"end":249.539,"text":"也因此地方制度法對六都三地原住民區產生了財政上的不公平怎麼樣不公平嗎因為六都三地原民區沒有自主財源它只能夠依據地方制度法第83條之7由直轄市來受算"},{"start":253.96,"end":271.464,"text":"補助給六都的三地原住民區然後用這個來維持改制前的統籌分配財源的水準可是呢 補助的額度卻是任憑直轄市政府他自己的意願來編列這是事實"},{"start":275.366,"end":290.412,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款的分配辦法對於55個原住民族地區的財政分配的困境我們先來看直轄市的普通統籌稅款如果按照各項指標的競爭來決定分配的額度的話土地面積市佔20%這是直轄市的"},{"start":295.954,"end":321.746,"text":"但是一般縣市土地面積因素占了35%我們就以高雄市為例高雄市有三個山地鄉它的土地面積占了整個高雄市的46.61%然而我們的高雄市政府用這個所謂的土地面積它跟中央爭取到了統籌分配稅款"},{"start":322.446,"end":329.216,"text":"可是他沒有按照同等的比例來回饋高雄市的這三個園鄉區"},{"start":332.096,"end":358.21,"text":"同樣的一般的縣市也是利用原鄉的土地的面積在中央取到了統籌分配稅款之後實際回到了地方政府他也沒有按照土地面積來給足其他鄉同樣額度的分配款我講到這個大家應該都在點頭了我看到主計中央在點頭了你們都很清楚我們的所謂的中央"},{"start":359.23,"end":382.976,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款有幾個比例土地直轄市土地是在20%一般縣市是在35%可是呢這些地方政府拿了這樣子的資源分配的這個比例去跟中央要錢可是中央回到地方上來的時候卻沒有按照土地面積給應該要有的原鄉地區"},{"start":384.036,"end":401.153,"text":"如果按照這樣子的比例來說﹖不管是我們六都的山地區﹖或者是一般原住民鄉鎮﹖他要分配到的統籌分款﹖不會像現在這樣子的一個額度因此各縣市政府在講財源不公平的同時﹖請你們也回過頭來想一想﹖"},{"start":402.995,"end":403.475,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":419.68,"end":443.367,"text":"地方政府確切的落實依照原住民族地區的土地面積的比例然後來研議合理的分配方案然後來規劃實質的平等的財政制度這樣子才會符合憲法徵修條文的精神跟原住民族轉型正義的目的我很高興今天代表原住民的族人在這邊幫我們55個園鄉包括六都的原住民區"},{"start":448.609,"end":473.011,"text":"來這邊把他們的聲音告訴在場的各位行政部門以及專家學者也請周委下次我們要來提到這個要來這個這個修正財政收支劃分法的時候一定要把這個土地的面積好好的講一下然後並且也要要求地方政府按照他們如何跟中央爭取的比例就應該按照怎麼樣的比例"},{"start":473.933,"end":474.294,"text":"高金素梅委員"}]}},{"id":"153647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9836ebdcd68924eeef9b1a58893ad1259dfc6f3e651eb00659c9653d96d06e67c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:52:55 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中央提60% 地方拿40%之後中央分"},{"start":75.18,"end":93.792,"text":"分配給地方的補助款就逐年地在下降地方分配只剩下25%多15%再回歸給中央造成縣市自有財源的不足而且預算的短差在過去的10年國稅的成長成長了多少成長了104%地方的稅只成長多少"},{"start":98.715,"end":117.549,"text":"指成長了13% 104%跟13%的比例我希望中央單位聽到那顯現我們經常在講的一句話也就是把這個肥中央授地方肥中央授地方的財政收支劃分法"},{"start":118.97,"end":143.356,"text":"這一個改變絕對是刻不容緩所以財劃法在1999年到現在沒有修正這25年來我們看到社會的面向公務人員加薪社會福利與日俱增地方政府更承擔著國土規劃城市發展都市轉型淨零碳排這些重責大任"},{"start":144.016,"end":165.863,"text":"在資質事項裡頭跟委辦的事項也逐年的一直在膨脹但攸關的中央跟地方財政分配的財劃法卻沿用的舊有的財政規劃實在是難以來承擔擔起新世紀的一個挑戰所以我們看到中央政府在111年裡頭國家總收入達到多少 達到了3.24兆"},{"start":171.965,"end":199.302,"text":"國稅的部分有2.82兆元占的占比是85%地方的稅收僅有多少4047億元占比15%可以看到中央地方的稅收嚴重的收入是嚴重的失衡在中央給地方的統籌分配款上面補加上還要再加上補助稅款來看在112年去年度裡頭只有占多少占28.1%"},{"start":201.343,"end":202.764,"text":"中央給地方的統籌分配款是逐年的降低即便我們的稅收超徵"},{"start":222.18,"end":249.815,"text":"餅越做越大的時候但是它的分配比例是不增反減這個邏輯太奇怪了中央超增竟然補助給地方的是不增反減地方政府為了要配合中央政府的施政事項越來越多所以因此地方財務卻沒有增加的情況之下地方政府我們要如何的來協助中央政府推動的國家政策呢"},{"start":250.555,"end":271.722,"text":"所以我在這邊要特別本席提出財政是輸贈之母地方政府缺乏健全的財政來作為後盾導致一切的施政都是無法展開的情況之下為了要建設地方必須仰賴中央的筆息關係好一點就多給一點關係差一點就以公視來分配"},{"start":276.703,"end":279.505,"text":"中央應該要聽進去地方政府的心聲"},{"start":305.663,"end":333.774,"text":"事出財源改善集權集錢的這個現象考慮中央財政耐性之餘也要將地方財政的需求納入考量第一則可避免中央繼續的偏私濫權二則可讓地方掌控更多的自主發展的一個主機這一點是非常重要所以以上是本席的一個建言也敬請大家來參佐 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1,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":16.258,"end":30.869,"text":"從民國88年修正到現在已經25年未做任何的修正我們相較當時的未配合精神而公佈實行的地方制度法"},{"start":31.71,"end":57.975,"text":"都已經修正了14次行政區劃早已從2都22個縣市現在修訂為6都16個縣市所以我們的財政收支劃分法實在已經不具有中央補助地方的精神與成效而有加以適時的修正的必要"},{"start":59.502,"end":80.72,"text":"那我想這樣的完全適合的分配機制不僅無法協助我們各個地方政府解決長期財源偏低與債務負債的問題也更加拉鋸大城鄉區域間的發展差異所以我在這一次我有提出了修法的版本"},{"start":81.681,"end":88.983,"text":"國稅與地方稅的部分的修改重點包含將營業稅的總收入與減除依法提撥之統一發票給獎的獎金後的全部餘額由中央統籌分配給地方政府"},{"start":103.388,"end":117.194,"text":"也刪除現行應繳給中央統籌分配給各縣市的20%的土地增值稅的條文將土地增值稅的稅收改為全部歸直轄縣市"},{"start":118.979,"end":132.934,"text":"此外,我們也沒有忽略離島縣市的需求,也提案將金門及連江二線徵得的菸酒稅收入改為在減除1%作為積增以及查緝經費後的80%分配給各該縣"},{"start":137.202,"end":162.791,"text":"而中央統籌分配稅款也應該以總額的98%列為普通統籌分配稅款並且也要根據合理的公式做透明化的分配關於區域制建設計畫或合作事項亦應優先予以補助或其他必要之協助讓我們各地方能夠更均衡的發展"},{"start":164.452,"end":175.778,"text":"我們有看到許多委員的提案但是我比較遺憾的就是我們財政部針對各委員的版本說那個也不行這個也不對"},{"start":178.608,"end":200.066,"text":"繼續拖延所以我在這邊要建議財政部財政部我希望你不要說只動腦不想動腦提出修法的版本那如果說你要繼續批評我們各委員會的各委員的版本那為何不利用各委員提案的內容去整合出一個可以討論的方向或者是版本"},{"start":201.28,"end":215.63,"text":"甚至我也建議可以將2017年當時的行政院林全院長已經準備好的版本重新拿出來這個也可以啊所以我請財政部要去思考"},{"start":216.607,"end":227.684,"text":"我想地方要錢是因為需要發展地方的資源去為地方賺更多的錢而不是要跟中央來徵錢分錢我請這點也請財政部能夠了解"},{"start":232.731,"end":259.017,"text":"那我以我新竹縣為例新竹縣是我們繳稅最多的一個縣新竹縣的發展也特別的快因為新竹縣我們有很多的科技的產業園區包含有AI智慧園區有鳳山工業園區有新竹的虎口工業園區有台元科技園區還有竹科台積電的二三級也在我們新竹縣"},{"start":260.293,"end":278.402,"text":"所以新竹縣可以說繳稅真的是非常非常的多但是我要在這邊跟大家報告新竹縣各位猜一猜新竹縣分配到的統籌分配稅款只有多少新竹縣快60萬人口新竹縣只分配到55.77億"},{"start":281.69,"end":305.245,"text":"全國倒數第一名阿 全國人均最少的不到一萬塊其他各縣市都超過一萬塊 新竹縣只有九千多塊所以可見這個統籌分配稅款對新竹縣來講 或者剛才王美惠講的嘉義市是多麼的不合理所以我希望說 財政部能盡速"},{"start":306.533,"end":325.092,"text":"就今天這個公聽會各專家學者的意見以及我們所有立委提出的相關的修法的一個建議希望財政部能夠採納最好財政部你就提出一個我們的公版或者你提出一個公式到底我們財化法要怎麼修"},{"start":326.771,"end":338.242,"text":"請財政部真的要積極加快腳步因為這個財化法如果不修我想這種惡性的循環各縣市叫苦連天會不斷的循環的上演"},{"start":342.466,"end":342.846,"text":"林思明 林委員"}]}},{"id":"153631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98992a131bf940301b9b1a58893ad1259dfc6f3e651eb00659a1c492a21a7eb66e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"12:34:10 - 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館長也好 都希望選擇選擇選擇的當中沒有看到中央公平關愛的眼神所以這是非常困難 我覺得"},{"start":147.515,"end":155.197,"text":"不公平在這 常常我們都說 叫做立法院那些東西跟立法院分那些 分到多少 到有多少在這裡修所在 因為我認為我們要讓修所在也有競爭力 也有主權 所以說 普通在本社所說的就是"},{"start":173.74,"end":186.346,"text":"最主要﹐讓受討伺的人﹐也有尊重的空間尤其是高利貸﹐你看到高利貸﹐高利貸現在漸漸的發展﹐但不是高利貸沒有認證﹐高利貸﹐包括市長﹐市長帶領下﹐所有的財政也很認真﹐但每天﹐他要建設的時候﹐"},{"start":203.84,"end":213.172,"text":"都要他的配合款﹚所以在這個會期內﹚承擔很多建設的配合款的錢﹚都是非常無價"},{"start":217.293,"end":222.154,"text":"所以我也願意在未來修法的時候﹐可以讓自己的錢﹐還有多少的資源﹐因為在自己的錢來說﹐百萬錢都有兄弟來分配﹐"},{"start":234.138,"end":234.759,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":256.203,"end":256.864,"text":"在此,我們有特別的同仇款應該是繼續領後,應該如果存,要再分給當地"},{"start":267.265,"end":286.799,"text":"會提供檢視與施設及修立所以這可以解決他們財政的問題所以我希望我們的中央如果要做什麼建設應該是中央要做、中央出資不然你如果像高利貸來說"},{"start":288.62,"end":293.182,"text":"請提督告知 每天都說要錢配合 配合後還要負擔很多所以我希望未來的財政可以對各縣市財政一個劃分因為我認為是我們國會的領域"},{"start":310.96,"end":314.804,"text":"謝謝王美惠、王委員、嘉義市很辛苦"}]}},{"id":"153630","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153630","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c989fd8390d2ca1a3c29b1a58893ad1259dfc6f3e651eb006591a088aa3d2b9e73c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:28:00 - 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超過20幾年沒有修正那麼2022年的7月 時任民進黨主席蘇貞昌率領6個民進黨縣市代表包含台南市長賴清德 嘉義市長張花冠 雲林縣長蘇志芬屏東縣長曹啟宏 高雄市副市長李永德 宜蘭縣副縣長吳哲成以及民進黨黨團總召柯建民 幹事長潘孟安 召開記者會說真抱歉 我們就是這麼窮要求當初的國民黨政府儘速通過財政收支劃分法的修正"},{"start":39.143,"end":56.418,"text":"當初我蘇貞昌的內容講說人應該生而平等站在台灣因為出生在不同的縣市有不公平不平等還不是因為山川地理的限制是因為中央主政者用制度用法律用資源分配造成的不平等而且越來越不平等就算立法院做成決議也不處理"},{"start":58.1,"end":78.931,"text":"2019年修改《地質法》讓縣市合併升格時﹐立法院就已經做出決議﹐要求2個月內要修正《財化法》﹐到當初2012年已經超過3年都沒有修﹐很遺憾喔這12年過去了還是沒有修那麼賴清德總統﹐過去2017年擔任行政院長的時候曾經說﹐要均衡地方發展的3個面向﹐第一行政區重劃"},{"start":79.411,"end":81.071,"text":"中央向大家長 縣市政府向他的小孩要真正當大人"},{"start":100.117,"end":126.888,"text":"不是通通把錢給父母由父母來分配而是小孩要自己學著管理財政自己學著面對問題我們也知道巧婦難為無米之炊地方政府沒有充足的財政收入那怎麼樣去調整產業結構怎麼樣注意收支平衡我們更不希望財政支出黑箱化每次都跟中央用喬的這裡搶資源那裡搶資源而導致各縣市間產生不公平的情況"},{"start":128.609,"end":151.247,"text":"應該讓這個有能力的縣市得到多資源若是縣市尋求中央的協助我想才是正辦這也是為什麼我們希望財政收支劃分法能夠修正的重要的原因這個財務法的修正是活絡縣市發展的重要法案也是落實地方政治的里程碑民進黨在野的時候曾經大聲呼籲如今執政希望趕快兌現這是本席要講的第一個重點"},{"start":152.088,"end":177.57,"text":"第二個重點是我們剛剛很多學者也討論到集錢集權的這個遊戲規則它的政策效果我們必須要說目前的機制缺乏公平性國庫國稅的收入超過3兆但地方分配的資源從10年前的35%到今年只降到28%是為垂直不均而其中直轄市又比縣市分配到多許多只為水平不均"},{"start":179.812,"end":197.226,"text":"財政收支劃分分配就是要讓中央主導米平城鄉差距米平區域發展不均衡的問題可是現況觀之我們過去這麼長時間20幾年都使用這樣子的一套遊戲規則請問政策效果何在我們真的有平衡城鄉差距嗎"},{"start":198.479,"end":226.532,"text":"看起來是沒有嘛看起來人口還是往六都拼命的集中偏鄉的時候不是人口流失就是人口老化顯然這一套集錢的遊戲規則沒有辦法拉近區域間發展的不公平不正義那為什麼不換一個思維給予地方政府更多的財政權限呢讓相對優勢的直轄市有更好的財政自主權讓相對弱勢縣市得到更多中央的補助也許是一條可以走的出路這是我們講的第二個重點"},{"start":227.412,"end":245.651,"text":"第三個重點我們歷任財政部長都講說要修正這個法令想要達成全國所有地方政府的共識但是大家都清楚要達成共識那需要時間誰知道當政府終於達成共識的時候這些地方政府還撐不撐得下去我作為桃園的民意代表幫桃園講講話我們桃園最晚升格"},{"start":248.314,"end":263.23,"text":"在分配的戰略位置上其實是非常非常不利的簡單來說五都把餅都分完了我們才升格所以常常不管是統籌分配稅或者是一般補助款我們都叫萬年老六六都最末那在這個"},{"start":264.864,"end":265.244,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":282.741,"end":307.535,"text":"後來經過國民黨黨團統整各個縣市再也縣市的這個版本之後我們財政局長主動告訴我他說這個部分我們就不再堅持了為什麼因為要統整各縣市的共識本身就是一件非常艱鉅的工程我們主張工業其他人主張農業其他人主張老人到最後沒完沒了無法達成共識所以這是國民黨版本可貴之處在於至少在地方已經做了初步的版本統合"},{"start":308.556,"end":329.266,"text":"我們作為桃園人我們都願意妥協這國民黨的版本橫跨16個縣市財政局的大抵共識橫跨了城鄉離島其實已經具備了中華民國一定的代表性所以我們希望已經有初步共識了這樣子的法律修正更不應該再等"},{"start":330.186,"end":352.174,"text":"希望財政部可以好好成全我們所有的立法委員都會希望財化法趕快進行修正還給地方公平正義讓各地政府有更高的財政自主權能夠大展拳腳 促進地方自治的品質以上 謝謝好 謝謝 牛煦庭 牛委員接著請王美惠 王委員"}]}},{"id":"153618","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153618","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98a7912baa78ed781e9b1a58893ad1259dfc6f3e651eb00659e27a470d39c62d065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:55:39 - 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你絕對做不到啊每一個立委都可以拿出來 為什麼你拿不出來"},{"start":438.046,"end":441.747,"text":"你公聽會講：是行政院長叫你不要拿是不是?採一些無事上的：要水不費改不平：你不可以不撥錢下來其實要對28樁部長這幾年下來：一路的減少：地方一路減少你嘴巴講出來比較多 因為你餅變大了啊比例還是低啊樁部長你很可憐"},{"start":466.072,"end":470.885,"text":"不蓋了部長的肩膀你很客戶欺負地方政府"},{"start":471.823,"end":496.239,"text":"我們財政法這個會期我們希望臨時會我們拜託主席啊這個一定要發送出委員會想辦法盡快的通過三讀我覺得讓社會來公平這個讓地方政府不能夠這樣欺負地方政府啊中央地方不是上限級的關係是夥伴關係地方的首長都是一票一票選出來的"},{"start":502.384,"end":514.145,"text":"想清楚啊 謝謝好 謝謝賴士寶賴委員部長是 中央地方是夥伴關係嘛齁"}]}},{"id":"153606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9815328befa47731009b1a58893ad1259d11da973c502cee62791c8fffe3f7ed395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:20:33 - 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最接近可能可以比較完美來修改的一刻是歷史上最有可能把財劃法做一個比較公平 完美修正的一刻為什麼呢一方面 立法院有三黨不共伴第二 其實還比較重要"},{"start":32.998,"end":33.378,"text":"國民黨與民眾黨提版本"},{"start":54.585,"end":79.611,"text":"民進黨的專家：立法院的專家：彭百選：許天才都非常注意這個很多民進黨有理想的：立法院也提過更重要的：林全剛上任行政院長的時候 貝尼井他是有版本的第二個更重要賴清德：賴總統 這很敬意 一定會信他是有允諾他提修正版的"},{"start":80.592,"end":108.549,"text":"我知道這次的能夠修正有兩個歷史上很大的契機剛好在這時候都發生了一個是三黨不過半以前國民黨執政民進黨要求要改民進黨執政國民黨要求要改都過不了嘛現在三黨不過半所以他的契機就來了第二其實更重要我認為有林全那個版本有賴清德總統當行政院長時候的允諾他對人民是有允諾的所以我鄭重呼籲莊部長其實你今天報告看起來你好像看起來不修法"},{"start":109.366,"end":132.185,"text":"我鄭重的呼籲,你回去把林全的版本拿出來看一下林全部長剛接行政院長的時候,他找我到他的辦公室聊了很久我覺得他那個版本,事實上是可以解決問題的一方面他把餅做到的同時,他把一部分的錢真的有下放到地方去了"},{"start":133.837,"end":157.247,"text":"分配方式也是比較公平的可以滿足各個縣市的所以我鄭重呼籲莊部長回去要做兩件事情第一個把林全的版本拿出來看一下我非常期待民進黨最後有一個行政院版你如果不提的話或者你要抄要參考用林全的版本你民進黨自己在行政院找嘛第二個你應該跟"},{"start":159.625,"end":171.733,"text":"賴總統要提醒他跟人民是有承諾的好不好所以我認為現在是很有可能可以跨出這個完美修正的一步恭喜齋他是個政治問題沒錯啊誰擔保民進黨以後會永久執政把法修好對任何一個黨對民進黨對國民黨對台灣民眾黨對所有的縣市都是好的剛剛我聽了蠻感動很多學者中間都說啊少一點政治"},{"start":187.512,"end":187.732,"text":"張啓楷 張教授"},{"start":214.708,"end":241.418,"text":"黃耀輝黃教授我古尼我們一起開了財劃法要怎麼修的記者會今天有這麼多有名的財經界的這個大師都是記簿啊陳國良陳教授李顯鋒李教授李育成李教授陳文清陳教授林長清林教授蔡群立蔡教授柯格宗柯教授這卡子非常強一個我是覺得每個學者跟每個立法院都站在這邊講話都要對歷史佈著"},{"start":244.517,"end":264.344,"text":"我們把政治少一點點竟然考試這麼強我們就把專家學者今天講的還有一個很重要重點每個縣市都派了代表來了今天不只列到公報上面我們嚴格的要求我們很期待的是今天各個縣市要求的一些改革我覺得我整個聽下來很合理啊"},{"start":266.94,"end":295.405,"text":"你只要去看年前那個版本我覺得今天各個縣市提的專家學者講的非常多是吻合的所以最後做一個簡單的結論第一個很謝謝主席今天邀了這麼多的縣市跟專家學者來等一下可能我們每個黨講話可能立場不見得是一樣可是有幾個原則一定要做到第一個各個縣市在這次修法之後不只一毛錢不能少每個縣市喔都應該是要增加的這樣說白嗎"},{"start":297.779,"end":324.175,"text":"有沒有公屏 這個有方法可以做嗎 我覺得加一期提的方法非常好 加一次提的是什麼他說你先提撥一定的比例 這個在國民黨的版本我們有看到啊 國民黨說你要撥下去之前 你先把11%先拿出來我們有22個官區嘛 對不對 那每個縣市在做的事情幾乎都 很多事情都是一樣一定要達成的嘛 那你先拿11%出來"},{"start":325.762,"end":328.023,"text":"中央要好好回去想一想不是只有覺得說現在好像是各個縣市或者是國民黨的民眾去搶中央錢不是這樣子的中央的錢你看最近這幾年每年都超收啊"},{"start":347.281,"end":374.802,"text":"對不對他有足夠的財源而且他是有機會把餅做大的我覺得莊部長跟民進黨的中央應該要對歷史負責不要從短暫的民進黨執政這個事情去看我覺得是有機會可以改的那另外利用這個機會我最後要做一個做一個呼籲今天難得22個縣市的代表都來22個縣市的代表都來那今天可能有些人在講說22個縣市好像"},{"start":377.981,"end":378.001,"text":"張啓楷議員"},{"start":394.128,"end":414.994,"text":"所以第一個從垂直的分配上面請中央去參考零錢的版本該把餅做大的你現有的財源下放到地方來第二個在直轄市到各個其他縣市比較貧困的縣市做一個比較水平的某些直轄市的錢確實應該撥到地方去好不好我們共同來努力我再強調一下"},{"start":416.776,"end":425.487,"text":"這是歷史上最好最接近可以改革的一刻而且這是對所有的政黨對中央跟地方都是好的我們共同努力謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"153581","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153581","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98eaada98d07c07a479b1a58893ad1259d68f95e3d087843c2485483616c827c295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:43:17 - 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所以我剛才其實很同意我們新北市財政局長他的說法他有一句話我認為很正確"},{"start":159.839,"end":172.748,"text":"先求有再求好也就是說對於我們地方縣市來講我非常清楚知道我剛才聽得非常仔細即便是民進黨執政縣市的別提到了這個有關於是不是對農業土地未來有國土法的一個相關的規範"},{"start":181.474,"end":181.514,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":206.624,"end":206.784,"text":"王鴻薇議員王鴻薇議員"},{"start":227.597,"end":227.737,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":247.944,"end":248.584,"text":"財政部只有三個字不要修"},{"start":263.954,"end":264.134,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":286.428,"end":286.468,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":301.713,"end":326.661,"text":"大家全部都仰中央鼻息啊所以我覺得在這一次地方的縣市政府一定要結合起來一定要促成財劃法的修正那麼只要中央的餅分配給地方夠多那麼大家每一個縣市我們事實上現在所提出來的黨團版"},{"start":328.422,"end":355.968,"text":"每一個縣市都會增加很重要每一個縣市都會增加如果你不修的話你就只好向中央求爺爺告奶奶就是向這個父爸爸要錢嘛他想多給你就多給你他不想多給你他就不要給你然後呢你可能每一次一般補助款啦這些特別補助款你就去求他們所以在這邊我真的"},{"start":357.648,"end":358.088,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":374.136,"end":375.077,"text":"王鴻薇委員"},{"start":406.294,"end":406.495,"text":"曾鉅薇"}]}},{"id":"15985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15985","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc558f108d180b0e1b9e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be40178b6bc23ea54b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-05T08:30:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:36:00+08:00","duration":14729,"影片長度":"04:05:29","委員發言時間":"08:30:31 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xt":"報告委員會出席委員8人以足法定人數請主席宣布開會現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第一會期司法及法制委員會第29次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年6月3日星期一上午9時至12時13分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員謝委員龍介等12人"},{"start":1847.125,"end":1873.261,"text":"貼習委員鄭委員天才等三人、列席官員法務部政務司長徐錫祥等人、主席中召集委員嘉賓。報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定,討論事項繼續併案審查、行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等四案。決議一、進行逐條審查。二、第一條之第四條、第六條之第23條及第25條之第31條均照行政院提案通過。"},{"start":1874.241,"end":1899.745,"text":"三（第五條及第二十四條均保留送院會處理。四（台灣民眾黨黨團提案增定第七條之一不予採納。五（通過附帶決議二項。六（本案審查完具擬具審查報告提請院會公決。需交由黨團協商。院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明。七（次引數條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及議事人員整理。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1902.076,"end":1917.822,"text":"好,意思如我們稍後確定接下來介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員那應邀列席官員的部分呢我們介紹法務部政部長歡迎您還有法務部黃常務次長歡迎您"},{"start":1919.787,"end":1921.748,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":1938.407,"end":1963.394,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案。」好。那麼先做本次會議議事日程的說明。本次議程討論事項原列兩案。那因第二案繼續併案審查行政院函請審議洗錢防制法修正草案等案。業餘本週一本會第29次全體委員會議審查完略。今日僅處理第一案審查行政院函請審議的科技偵查及保障法草案。"},{"start":1964.926,"end":1969.472,"text":"好那現在進行機關代表報告時間三分鐘有請法務部正部長報告"},{"start":1975.883,"end":2004.649,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天奉邀列席那個大院貴委員會就行政院函請審理的科技偵查及保障法草案議案代表本部列席報告並被質詢請提供提供本部意見進行指教那主要是科技偵查科技發展日系因為很多犯罪利用新興的科技造成更大危害所以更多的被害人比如說我們現在國人聲通二絕的詐欺犯罪"},{"start":2005.129,"end":2028.619,"text":"就利用這些科技隱秘形狀製造斷點司法機關難以用傳統法法來查緝遇到重大的一個一個極大的一個瓶頸所以必要給司法機關一個合法的工具對科技犯罪與科技的一個反制有效追溯犯罪以確保國家安全及維護人民生命財產的一個安全也讓偵查機關善用這些科技而不濫用"},{"start":2029.179,"end":2041.767,"text":"在打擊犯罪的同時落實基本權的一個保障這是這部的科技偵查保障法草案最重要的一個目的。那第二就是行政院函請審議的科技的一個一個"},{"start":2042.85,"end":2071.079,"text":"一個草案的最主要的一個要點有第二條我們規定以科技方法譬如說以GPS追蹤位置可以追蹤榨汽車所的車輛一個去處如果不是超過24連續24小時累計為超過兩日的極短追蹤那這樣檢調檢警就可以依職權來實施可以避免錯失黃金時期超過24小時2日就必須要申請法官保留"},{"start":2071.559,"end":2090.109,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 規定對手機調查的一個要件跟程序這就是要規範利用AIM化車對詐欺機房訊息及手機定位或與AIM化車調查手機的序號SIM卡的號碼這也是採法官的一個保留"},{"start":2091.894,"end":2111.015,"text":"那再來是草案第四條規範會以實體侵入的一個方式例如熱顯示以的測溫度從事外對室內的一個空間的一個調查那這樣可以可以對對譬如說以台版柬埔災案可以需要以熱顯示以對室內測高溫來救被害人"},{"start":2111.877,"end":2129.808,"text":"那再來就是台灣的規定法院許可書應記載的事項許可書應將使用的科技方法調查標的及裝置裝設的方式來展明反映可以在許可書對執行人做適當的限制或指示"},{"start":2131.121,"end":2155.329,"text":"那再來如果說遇到緊（執法機構遇到緊迫情形呢也可以呢在實施三日內呢緊急實施科技偵查之後呢在實施三日內向法院來申請補發許可許可是這也可以可以避免吼那個那個負以那個受調查對科技偵查作為的一個一個一個作為那犯罪者是"},{"start":2156.789,"end":2179.146,"text":"第一個勇於嘗試創新科技人那犯罪手法推陳初心這個是執法機關的一個一個必須要一個一個執法機關社會人民都因且期盼有這個新的科技偵查法的一個一個通過立法我想這個可以保障國家人民的一個一個一個達到一個目的謝謝"},{"start":2182.892,"end":2202.371,"text":"好謝謝政部長接下來請司法院刑事廳廳長李廳長報告主席各位委員各位先進今天貴委員會審議"},{"start":2208.288,"end":2223.247,"text":"審議科技偵查及保障法草案 本院奉邀前來列席深感榮幸之就本次會議就本院有關的業務提出書面報告有關於行政院函請審議的科技偵查及保障法草案的部分"},{"start":2223.928,"end":2252.888,"text":"那因為伴隨著新興的科技發展造成犯罪手段的多樣的危害性那相應的新興的科技收證的方法及必要性那就非常的高所以科技偵查相較於傳統的手段可能對人民憲法上的基本權的產生甚大的影響那依法治國的原則卻由於法律保留立法規定的必要並依其影響基本權的程度為層級化的授權審查跟救濟"},{"start":2253.709,"end":2254.75,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案 案"},{"start":2273.831,"end":2279.032,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":2301.018,"end":2330.035,"text":"好謝謝李廳長那麼其餘的請送交書面報告機關來我們就列入記錄那機關報告代表報告完畢我們相關的書面報告內容都列入公報記錄那機關報告我們現在開始詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位的我們先"},{"start":2331.381,"end":2332.182,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。"},{"start":2365.636,"end":2390.628,"text":"主席我們先請政務長好請政務長委員早部長早齁這個我們今天齁我們主席所安排的這個有關於科技偵查及保障法的審查是那這個我們行政院在5月9號齁這個行政院通過這個所謂打詐新司法那在5月17"},{"start":2392.182,"end":2416.41,"text":"我們立法院這個院會一讀來交付我們本委員會來審查那我在這邊想要比較首先請教這個部長就是說這個像這個科技偵查法他其實除了跟這個詐欺犯隊有高高度相關之外另外他這個"},{"start":2418.029,"end":2418.63,"text":"刑事偵查及證據能力刑事偵查及證據能力"},{"start":2439.329,"end":2457.203,"text":"那我們把這我們在這個在這次這整個立法過程中我們把這個科技偵查及保障法放到打詐司法裡面一定有他的道理因為他本來這所謂科技偵查應該本來是應該是一個整個整個這個形式訴訟裡面的一個"},{"start":2458.393,"end":2468.789,"text":"一個這個有關強制偵查的相關規定以及他的證據能力的相關規定。那現在為什麼會放在打炸事法裡面?這能不能請部長說明一下?"},{"start":2470.674,"end":2498.561,"text":"謝謝委員齁那個因為整個詐欺罪在整個一個犯罪的比例是非常大而且人們也非常的一個痛恨那顯而一個詐團以及一個詐欺的一個手法也日新月異這些他們是會善用那個最新的一個科技那我們現在一定要科科真法的一個一個設一個一個制定齁可以及時來因應來做一個打擊的一個利器那譬如說我們有有那個GPSM化車還有一些的熱線性以這這部分可以針對"},{"start":2499.421,"end":2509.421,"text":"最新的一個詐團的這些犯罪形態予以做一個壓制。」好那是不是我們今天警政署有來了我們警政署是不是今天是副署長來請陳副署長"},{"start":2513.413,"end":2540.966,"text":"對不起因為剛剛部長講的這個就就牽涉到我們直接在這個詐欺犯罪的偵查當中的這個這個細節所以我想想要了解啦齁因為我們既然把這個科技偵查放到這個這個打詐釋法裡面表示這個我們目前在在這個防制詐欺犯罪上面科技偵查事實上已經變成非常重要的一個關鍵了是的我想請這個警政署這邊說明齁像什麼案例例如說"},{"start":2542.182,"end":2569.138,"text":"我們這個GPS追蹤器為什麼他他這個是必要在在偵辦過程中必要為什麼M化車定位為什麼重要熱顯像儀在這個這個整個偵辦過程中扮演什麼樣的角色像現在的詐欺他主要是領錢所以他就會有輪流跟車流包括車手所以我們要能夠即時的掌握他的行蹤那像這個GPS就可以我發揮我這個即時的功能"},{"start":2569.278,"end":2572.032,"text":"如果沒有GPS我們要掌握他們這樣車手換來換去是"},{"start":2573.666,"end":2577.369,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2600.148,"end":2619.559,"text":"這個人去監控的話像現在這種像這種新興的這種魯人的魯人跟這個魯人犯罪相結合的這種詐欺犯罪這個熱選相宜他的功能是什麼對對他的他像這個就是說現在詐欺集團大概都是複合式的那像之前這個柬埔寨這個案我們淡水破了這個案"},{"start":2622.06,"end":2623.32,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":2645.028,"end":2665.347,"text":"現在目前國人這麼痛恨詐欺而且詐欺犯罪橫行的狀況之下我們在整個偵辦過程當中確實已經如果沒有用俯以這個科技偵查恐怕我們以我們的人力跟我們的能力是沒有科技偵查是難以難以防制的所以這個"},{"start":2666.806,"end":2674.429,"text":"如果這個科技偵查法一直沒有通過他會有一些問題像我們事實上過去也已經有什麼司法院有好幾個判決好幾個判決對於這個有關使用這個M化車好像這個110年度的4549號判決然後那GPS追蹤器這106年的3788"},{"start":2685.094,"end":2703.831,"text":"也都在判決當中判定這些科這些科技偵查他不符合形式送法規定所以把他的證據能力變成無效這個是已經有確定的判決了所以所以我們目前要應該要盡快的通過這個科技偵查法或者是把科技偵查"},{"start":2704.952,"end":2720.952,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 規定,放在刑事訴訟法裏面也可以。但是不管怎麼樣,我們有這個科技偵查的法律授權非常重要對不對,副長。對,這個的確就是因為我們那個犯罪的一個調查方式,絕對不能落後於"},{"start":2722.774,"end":2749.165,"text":"否則我們在偵查過程中就像游泳在追遊艇一樣這個詐騙集團在開著遊艇跑我們偵辦人員在游泳後面追這個是難以沒有經過透過這個科技偵查是很難防制這樣子的詐欺犯罪但是這個我想等一下在審查過程中大家還是我們目前委員會裡面的成員大家對於這個究竟是要訂立一個專法"},{"start":2750.376,"end":2776.552,"text":"一個像我們今天這樣子一個科技偵查保障法或者是把它列在形式訴訟法形式訴訟法裡面再增列一個這個科技偵查專章讓他跟作為這個一個強制強制偵查的一個一個整體規範這部分部長怎麼樣看法為什麼今天最後我們選擇為什麼最後我們選擇用定力專法而不是納入形式訴訟法一定有我們的理由啊"},{"start":2777.946,"end":2799.546,"text":"謝謝委員我想定裝法跟定在刑訴這是一個政策的一個一個立法的選擇選擇但是我們認為是定裝法是比較適當的因為對最主要是因為整個一個科技的發展資訊因應我們即使因應整一個犯罪的手法的一個壓制所以我們希望定裝法齁這個這個速度齁會整個立法的速度會比較快對細部的事項會比較做一個"},{"start":2802.409,"end":2829.242,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 規範,法務部主管法規,我們也是希望對偵查這部分我們比較了解,所以我們定裝法的話可以及時去因應這個犯罪形態的處理,這個是有必要性的。這個其實以我現在所看到的草案,現在我們的科技偵查保障法或者是目前我們院內有委員所提案的關於刑事訴訟法的修訂,其實內容幾乎是一模一樣。"},{"start":2830.362,"end":2855.743,"text":"他只是在立法體制上面放在不同的位置他有不同的思考是事實上我們定立這個專法其實科技偵查這部分他其實還他包含了兩個重要的元素在裡面一個就是我們剛剛講的廣泛的這個這個有關強制偵查他證據能力等的相關這些程序正義的是一個面向程序正義是一個面向讓這樣的科技偵查取得法律的依據這是程序正義"},{"start":2856.784,"end":2880.505,"text":"另外一個是剛剛警政署所講的在偵查犯罪過程中發現真實我們要發現真實的一個重要的手段我們在發現真實跟這個程序正義這兩個衡量之間來是作為我們訂立這個專法不管是專法或是刑事訴訟法裡面重要的精神那當然在這個"},{"start":2882.366,"end":2885.827,"text":"刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法"},{"start":2912.458,"end":2929.633,"text":"是比較是是比較比較妥當啦齁一方面主管機關也不同定律專法的話是我們法務部主管如果到刑事訴訟法就變成司法院主管好那這個這就我們的我們這個當我們在發現真實過程中需要的相關的法律規範我們就必須要會嫌"},{"start":2930.888,"end":2934.41,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 及保障法草案案 案 及保障法草案案 案"},{"start":2949.58,"end":2978.265,"text":"的方式手段工具可能他的變化也會未來會超過我們想像的速度所以如果在放在形式輸送法裡面一方面他影響了形式輸送法這一整部輸送法他的穩定性另外一方面我們如果是這個定力專法的話他未來在因應新的新型態的技術科技這些在法律上面的因應都比較方便這是我個人的看法不過我相信我們本委會裡面也有其他的看法是不是說我們也許應該我們在形式輸送法裡面"},{"start":2979.515,"end":3000.012,"text":"掙裂一個一個這個有關科技偵查整體性的授權規定那接下來其他每一個具體的這個新的這個科技偵查的工具我們就用這個科技偵查法專法來定定這也許是一個折衷的辦法那因為我站到接下來的時間我就先執行到這裡接下來我們在這個廣泛討論或者是主條討論裡面我們再來討論這些議題好不好好謝謝"},{"start":3004.676,"end":3026.566,"text":"好謝謝省委員謝謝鄭部長接下來請黃委員郭昌質詢歡迎鄭部長和李廳長"},{"start":3037.317,"end":3064.776,"text":"委員早兩位早針對科技偵查的法律授權我在新的國會第一次總質詢的時候從GPS到煙化車我已經質詢過上一任的行政院院長了那個時候都說還在研議今天終於研議出來了但事實上"},{"start":3066.147,"end":3084.372,"text":"這一部有關於科技偵查的專法我看完了以後我看完了以後我只有一個最根本的問題那個最根本的問題是裡面到底有哪一個條文性質上不是屬於刑事訴訟法應該管轄的範圍"},{"start":3088.691,"end":3113.74,"text":"這個問題我在第一次啊質詢我們的司法院秘書長立法計劃的時候我又講得非常的清楚啊不管是線上的搜索不管是有關於對行動通訊設備的科技偵查駐財外的科技設備相關的規定在德國的刑事訴訟法裡面全部都是規範在德國的刑事訴訟法"},{"start":3116.397,"end":3145.011,"text":"但是過去這20年因為我們司法院的消極怠惰不作為根本沒有針對相關科技偵查需要的法律授權在刑事訴訟法當中予以檢討搞到後來我們的檢警去用GPS這樣子一個最低階的科技偵查的手段竟然"},{"start":3146.355,"end":3167.062,"text":"維法還被起訴移送法辦用M化車我們花了納稅人的錢從警政署甚至到高檢署採購了M化車結果採購來的M化車沒有證據能力在這整個過程的當中我對於司法院自身事外我覺得不可思議我今天"},{"start":3172.847,"end":3177.466,"text":"一個最具體的問題行政院版的科技偵查保障法"},{"start":3179.192,"end":3203.5,"text":"看起來洋洋灑灑一部特別法只有十一條的規定十一條的規定啊你會不會把第一條第十條第十一條那些程序上的東西啊全部都拔掉我只有一個最具體的問題啊來請教一下我們司法院的代表有哪一條在性質上是不屬於刑事訴訟法對強制處分作為以及"},{"start":3204.6,"end":3228.44,"text":"他的法定程序的控制以及證據能力有哪一條是不能規定在刑事訴訟法的請司法院謝謝委員的指教那有關於司法院的立場部分我大概先重申一下如果資料沒有錯的話我們從司法院對於相關的修法一直都沒有離開過而且都都在對不起啊我時間有限啊就請我們是法律人依法論法"},{"start":3229.161,"end":3254.853,"text":"那目前的話有哪一條是不能規定在刑事訴訟法的請你具請你具請你具體指出來我們也曾經司法院曾經擬過一個刑事訴訟法的條文把把列入在刑事訴訟法的專章裡面來做做規範所以呢現在修正法裡面有哪一條是不能或是不應該放在刑事訴訟法的請司法院回答這部分是立法那個政策選擇的問題所以在性質上面本來就應該放在刑事訴訟法嗎"},{"start":3259.793,"end":3264.096,"text":"建新減改開的研討會部長你有沒有去參加這個研討會因為我沒有參加我建議部長啊去看一下那個研討會說辦案的需求有關於科技偵查的手段我們打開天窗說亮話只有限於打詐嗎辦組織犯罪需不需要"},{"start":3287.406,"end":3311.281,"text":"判國安犯罪需不需要各式各樣的犯罪形態在今天這個時候都需要科技偵查的手段從基層的檢察官到刑事訴訟法的學者大家都主張我們應該要回歸放在刑事訴訟法裡面予以規範這樣的聲音我不曉得部長有沒有聽到"},{"start":3312.948,"end":3335.607,"text":"法院有沒有聽到?這是為什麼台灣民眾黨一開始的時候我們就把他放在刑事訴訟法接下來中國國民黨的召委吳宗憲他也是把他放在刑事訴訟法民主進步黨的召委鍾嘉斌也是把他放在刑事訴訟法結果大家等了半天等了半天"},{"start":3336.687,"end":3365.525,"text":"你們推出一個科證法結果只有11條的規定那11條的規定掐頭去尾實際上面真正有實質內容的只有3條那3條全部都可以放在刑事訴訟法當中我老實講啦對於行政院嚴當了這麼久嚴當了這麼久結果搞出一個11條的科證法而且裡面所有的性質性質上本來就應該放在刑事訴訟法的我非常失望"},{"start":3366.502,"end":3389.653,"text":"但我接下來問一個比較具體的問題當初對於使用科技方法位於非具隱私或私密合理期待的空間進行調查的時候本來法務部科偵法的版本是有法律授權的依據跟要求為什麼到行政院版沒有來請部長說明"},{"start":3393.078,"end":3408.947,"text":"這部分我們是既然既在整個一個公共空間在一個一個隱私期待比較低的一個一個環境所以不需要法律授權不要過度授權所以不需要法律授權這部分回到刑事訴訟完來回到刑事訴訟法第幾條28條230好來請一下司法院針對對於這一種"},{"start":3420.97,"end":3444.122,"text":"非具隱私或秘密期待空間的實施調查用科技方法進行調查直接用刑事訴訟法那個概括的條文作為授權的基礎。司法院認為足夠或不足夠?就228條是徵徵查的概括授權的規定是不是可以直接用228條當作基礎?"},{"start":3446.28,"end":3457.836,"text":"是嗎來是今天是代表司法院的立場哦我們立場是應該是可以的好我現在的問題就來了今天司法院的立場說可以司法院的立場會拘束法官嗎"},{"start":3459.202,"end":3482.822,"text":"為什麼這麼多刑事訴訟法的學者認為即使是非具隱私或秘密合理期待空間的人或物實施調查還是要有法律授權的基礎因為特別是在看來請看一下如果是在空中實施調查的話你如果用228條當作基礎的話有沒有時間的限制有還是沒有請部長各位委員報告沒有"},{"start":3487.782,"end":3491.065,"text":"可以不需要有時間的限制嗎來請司法院只要是看他的偵查的時間的長短對於個人民的隱私期待他這個不就正是應該我們在法律授權的時候要寫清楚嗎你既然說"},{"start":3506.765,"end":3531.043,"text":"對於隱私的期待在空中實施的時候他對於人的隱私跟資訊自主的侵入的手段是比一般的時候更強烈司法院的立場要講清楚因為這要負歷史責任的喔如果萬一以後檢警用這樣子的手段用刑訴228條當作基礎我們個案的法官如果不買單的話誰要負責這是我的問題啊"},{"start":3535.405,"end":3546.194,"text":"當初檢警在用GPS的時候在被移送法辦之前所有的檢警都認為用228就可以當作授權的基礎我說的對不對來請問部長"},{"start":3552.18,"end":3575.966,"text":"當初在被移送法辦在法官跳出來講話以前所有的人都認為用228就可以當基礎啦。各位各位報告我們今天是要解決就是科技偵查科技偵查我們今天就是要解決問題所以我很擔心啊所以那個訴訟法這部分竟然可以解決像我們這個M花車那個該委員解決的GPS M花車對不起喔我現在在跟你講的"},{"start":3576.886,"end":3592.055,"text":"是空中實施調查的問題。空中實施調查的問題沒有任何時間的限制。時間用刑訴228當作基礎。這個就像齊柏女那個整個就是可以公共空間本的就是請示期待評審的地方。來來來那個請司法院。"},{"start":3593.149,"end":3615.714,"text":"我回應一下委員的問題對空中實施調查主要他到底有沒有時間上的限制這個部分主要還是重點他到底會人民的隱私期待有受到侵害他228條是蓋過偵查的蓋過授權他可以做但是他一旦越越遇越的侵害隱私期待的時候那應該有另外的法律授權另外的法律授權是什麼請說明可能用科偵法用專法來做他的法律授權在第幾條"},{"start":3625.296,"end":3640.095,"text":"再第幾條?這個就是我的問題嗎?二、三、四這個部分就是科技偵查法的基本的授權二、三、四那現在因為在之前在草案的時候不好意思喔,剛剛你說二、三、四是什麼?科技偵法的第二條、第三條、第四條這個部分"},{"start":3640.515,"end":3669.171,"text":"那裡面有空中調查嗎我現在要說明的是空中調查在之前的草案裡面曾經出現過但是對於空中調查、空中偵查的定義一直沒辦法做明確的定義包括所謂的空中偵查到底是無人機之外的包括CCTV在高空上的是不是也叫做空中偵查那這部分因為定義上的不明確所以需不需要時間上面的限制不管啦今天你是有人開啦還是沒有人開啦是用無人機啦"},{"start":3670.131,"end":3671.273,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案 案。"},{"start":3684.478,"end":3703.184,"text":"過去長時間以來有很多人認為用刑訴228可以處理很多事走到今天顯然就不行嘛所以才需要針對科技偵查不管是透過專法還是定在刑訴裡面給法律授權嘛那你們現在把本來有的條文把它拿掉了"},{"start":3704.775,"end":3727.472,"text":"而且那些條文還是很多刑事訴訟法的老師認為需要有法律具體授權的你們現在把他拿掉說回歸刑訴228那我就一個最根本的問題啊時間上面的限制不需要有嗎如果司法院認為時間上面的限制應該要有那我最具體的問題就是在哪裡在哪裡"},{"start":3729.673,"end":3753.77,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案�"},{"start":3754.676,"end":3783.553,"text":"那今天用科偵法這樣的一個專法如果裡面除了本質上面是形式訴訟的東西以外還有其他的事情的話我們還可以考慮但我看完所有的條文沒有一個條文是超越本來應該在形式訴訟裡面規範的範圍時間到了啦等一下我們再進行大體討論跟主條討論的時候我們再進一步深入的去追究一個科技偵查法"},{"start":3784.975,"end":3799.917,"text":"十一條的條文裡面具有實質內容只有三條本來就都應該可以放在刑事訴訟法你全部都准用刑訴全部都准用刑訴在立法的體力上讓大家搞不懂你搞這個專法要做什麼你為什麼不把它放在刑事訴訟法裡好謝謝"},{"start":3802.303,"end":3809.008,"text":"立法體制在通報法就有這樣的一個特別的一個規定。好,謝謝我們黃委員,謝謝鄭部長,謝謝李廷長。接下來,有請陳委員峻宇質詢。來,請。好,謝謝主席。我們有請鄭部長。請鄭部長。"},{"start":3831.394,"end":3831.655,"text":"副長早 委員早"},{"start":3835.041,"end":3860.83,"text":"我們今天要審查的是這個科技偵查及這個保障法的相關草案那主要是因應我們這個科技的日新月異那犯罪的形態也越來越多元同時也是打詐事法當中最重要的一個調查武器那誠如草案說明所寫這部這個法律是為了要確保我們偵查機關運用科技方式來進行偵查的一個合法性"},{"start":3861.61,"end":3887.019,"text":"那同時也保障人民的一個基本權更重要的是要讓調查犯罪的工具不再落後那最近風靡全台的這個黃仁勳執行長他也曾說台灣是AI的一個起點但2024年的台灣似乎同時擁有最先進的科技和最原始的一個調查手段所以不論是訂定這個科真法還是有委員提出希望能夠修形式訴訟法"},{"start":3887.839,"end":3901.011,"text":"那儘快讓科技偵查的這種手段有法律的基礎相信是我們各黨的一個高度共識那我再次我想請教就是說這個對於這個立專法還是立專章的部分"},{"start":3901.977,"end":3931.703,"text":"我們法務部跟司法院之間有沒有對此有一個溝通過的一個機制有沒有謝謝目前的話我們就是有公司就是一定那個專法那其實定專法也也非常多就大概講就是說像通報法通訊保障監察法這個也是對人民的通訊這個也是把它抽出來定一個專法像國民法官法正能保護法等等這就是立專法這樣的話可以即使因應這個時代的一個"},{"start":3932.124,"end":3936.758,"text":"我們有沒有跟司法院有有溝通過這部分是我們有溝通過的好"},{"start":3937.523,"end":3939.624,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":3965.9,"end":3985.856,"text":"訂定的過程裡面更加的透明。」這個部分再請我們法務部這邊就再後續再做協助。那我們今天對於這個科技偵查在事務上的使用齁我來請教我們法務部在這個草案的第二條當中有寫到我們偵查中檢察官任有必要時任有必要時"},{"start":3986.704,"end":3998.918,"text":"那得使用全球衛星定位系統的GPS或是其他非以這個辨識個人這個生物特徵的科技方式來追蹤位置,那部長"},{"start":4000.56,"end":4026.77,"text":"對剛剛所說的這個任有必要時會不會有不夠明確的問題那換言之倘若有其他更輕微的方法能夠取證就不能發動科技偵查嗎謝謝委員那個必要的時候是個案來做一個一個認定一個認定如果說沒有用這個科技偵查方法沒有其他的方式來做一個一個一個收集那這部分我們就是認為就就這個一個必要"},{"start":4027.65,"end":4049.009,"text":"這個必要而且這個根據這個這種相機PS其實對隱私是有但不是非常大所以我們這個查案允許說在24小時之內在24小時沒有連續24小時或者沒有連續打打兩天這部分我們是可以允許辦案單位可以可以這樣做但是超過的話在這邊也要是要請法官的一個許可好好"},{"start":4049.709,"end":4068.135,"text":"這科技日新月異啦齁那除了應用在這個地面上的調查還有從空中的這種科技方式例如我們這個空拍機由上而下的這種進行拍攝錄影或是這個測量手段那我還是請教部長就是說空拍機有涵蓋在整次我們本次的我們這個科偵法可使用的範圍當中嗎"},{"start":4073.466,"end":4095.315,"text":"這個空拍機這部分當然課程法這邊沒有去規範空拍機但是空拍機最主要是會隱密的空間他是一個公共空間他去做一個修正就像齊柏你看見台灣他也是用空拍機是在一個一個一個一個拍攝台灣的一個美景但如果說用空拍機去做一個一個修正或是怎樣我們認為這要因循序訴訟法的規定就可以做一個一個規範的"},{"start":4096.816,"end":4097.896,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":4119.192,"end":4120.532,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4147.677,"end":4173.428,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案上都能夠帶來很好的效果,那也是我們在當今偵查犯罪中最好的一個工具,那個必須盡快有法律的依據,那所以我們剛剛講的這些工具我相信我們法務部應該都已經有在思考要怎麼去讓他們這個合法化,那我也請我們法務部就是後續的這個這個相關的這個修法或是相關的這個制定的過程應該要"},{"start":4174.318,"end":4196.738,"text":"加緊腳步,讓我們所有的同仁在使用這些科技工具上能夠有一個依法性。」那另外就是草案第三條有提及就是調查過程中因為技術無可避免取得第三人的個資,那僅得供這個調查目的之比對且於調查實施結束後應該要刪除。"},{"start":4197.358,"end":4207.147,"text":"那我想請教就當遇上我們上述剛剛講的提及的狀況對於資料有無銷毀應該要如何來確認那需不需要有獨立審查的人員來確保"},{"start":4212.961,"end":4214.262,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":4229.909,"end":4231.851,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":4246.161,"end":4274.074,"text":"各位報告關於這個M4車無可避免的會取到因為技術上它無可避免的會涉及到第三人那除了比對目的之外我們要求它收完證就應急刪除但這條事後如果去控管這法規上因為屬於技術上的問題我們沒有在法規上寫但是我們未來會要求所有的司法警察執行機關要定在內機內控上面就這個銷毀做一些特別的規定那我們檢察官據偽偵查組織的角色我們也會去監督這個司法檢察機關的內機內控"},{"start":4275.875,"end":4277.837,"text":"獨立審查的人員就是檢察官喔?」"},{"start":4291.889,"end":4319.568,"text":"那我想我們從草案的內容來看對於這個調查隱私空間的發動門檻還有調查的方式也都有這個更加嚴格的規範那包括使用這個高倍數的攝影攝影機或是這個熱顯熱顯像設備也都是打擊重要這個重案的非常重要的一個手段跟工具當然也希望我們透過科技偵查的這個應用能夠對打擊犯罪起的一個比較好的效果那也讓"},{"start":4320.348,"end":4335.217,"text":"所有在偵查過程當中我們同仁在使用的工具能夠有效的提升這部分再請我們部長跟相關這個同仁繼續努力看能不能趕快把它完成好以上謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長、次長接下來有請羅委員志強發言"},{"start":4350.758,"end":4372.883,"text":"主席有請部長請政部長委員好部長我非常支持打詐但是我想請教一下這一部所謂的科技偵查法他的所謂的犯罪的偵查對象不只是詐欺案件對不對"},{"start":4374.124,"end":4385.01,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹖一、審查行政院函請審議．一、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":4401.621,"end":4405.723,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":4423.709,"end":4443.003,"text":"是不是其他犯罪形態也包含在裡面嗎 對不對我只是要一個答案一分鐘沒關係部長再請教你剛剛我看到幾位委員質詢其實不管是國民黨民眾黨還有民進黨其實都會委員提案是要來修刑事訴訟法把科技偵查作為一個專章來處理對不對那請問為什麼我們堅持要一個專法呢"},{"start":4449.817,"end":4478.56,"text":"這個專法的話因為其實立專法有立法例包括我剛才有提到的就是像通保法對我又講現在三黨都有委員提出是刑事訴訟法但也覺得配合刑事訴訟法這是立法選擇問題但是如果說以專法的訴訟法既然是立法選擇問題因為這既然是科技偵查為應時代的一個需要科技的發展如果說以刑事訴訟法的修法的話光日廢時那另外說以修那個專法的一個方式可以及早應用就像我們那個國民法官法也是定專法"},{"start":4479.461,"end":4501.567,"text":"那個通報法通訊保障委員是定一個專法我倒沒有看出什麼曠日廢死啊幾個黨都已經提出了版本因為像我們這樣只有定十幾條的話我們這就做一個一個審查我想速度會比較快我想這個定專法的話在整個立法當然我跟你講快慢之間有周延性的問題嘛法的體系的所謂的那個一致性的問題嘛專法當然有定專法的好處啊部長我覺得幾個委員幾個政黨委員意見還是參考一下"},{"start":4507.429,"end":4529.385,"text":"我想請教您下一個問題您瞭解一下您瞭解我們最近通過的這個國會改革法案嗎這有三讀通過有三讀通過我想請教您你知道這個國會如果要行使聽證調查它的門檻是什麼第一個程序上需要什麼經過誰決議要發動的話要誰來決議部長要熟悉一下因為你們都要提復議了嘛"},{"start":4535.543,"end":4563.598,"text":"法務部在扮演提復役的角色當中應該有角色吧。法務部就是我們這個行政院的法律守門人啊。要誰決議啊。在整個在59條之一有這樣要委員會跟調查委員會等來做一個。最後當然程序很多啊。最後一關最重要就是要院會決議嘛。院會113位立委決議嘛。對不對。然後你也看過我們國會改革在審的過程當中。國會的那個真是焦土戰啊。"},{"start":4564.878,"end":4579.909,"text":"要通過院會決議一旦如果說大家沒有共識很困難吧對不對就要經過很很大的一個所謂的一個呃溝通過程嘛那我問你要這個聽證調查啟動要院會決議這件事情就要門檻高還是低啊這個實際運作這個還要再觀察那我想請教您吼您知道在聽證的狀況的話如果說59條之五啦吼"},{"start":4594.537,"end":4623.091,"text":"在有些情況之下出席的人員還可以拒絕正言跟表達意見嘛 對不對 對不對包括說涉及國家安全國防外交之國家機密事項與越聽證會調查目的所提出的結論或對質我要講的重點是什麼即便都已經到要院會113位立委決議的這種情況之下你知道我看到很多的外面都講阿民進黨阿或是綠營的朋友講齁"},{"start":4625.817,"end":4635.9,"text":"說學校老師土豐武社張忠謀還有我們這個各式各樣的所有人民都會被聽證調查你覺得所有人民都會被聽證調查嗎會不會這個要看這個是議題議題個案這個民眾當然嘛兩個第一個嘛一定會有被這個裡面有規定人民也也有被"},{"start":4652.29,"end":4670.42,"text":"被人民什麼三大條件嗎?第一個可以拒絕陣營嗎?第二個院會決議嗎?第三個跟立法院職權有關嗎?對不對?法條寫得很清楚啊。大家符合這三項條件所以有門檻嗎?而且是相當高的門檻113位立委決議你跟我講門檻不夠高?不然這個意思嗎?門檻門檻夠不夠高?至少有門檻嗎?法案不是我們法務部的主管的法案我就"},{"start":4681.195,"end":4707.857,"text":"你們行政院都要提復議了我跟部長講113位立委決議就是個高門檻所謂的土豐五社啊台積電啊還是不管是張忠謀還是說今天是學校老師要過這三個門檻沒那麼容易啦好啦我要問你啦跟我們的科技偵查法有關齁你知道法治局對科技偵查法有意見吧立法院法治局"},{"start":4710.011,"end":4724.617,"text":"一個意見是什麼請問你照剛剛部長標準人民還是可能被查了對不對我想請問你學校老師土豐武社台積電或者黃仁勳還是館長還是里長有沒有可能被科技偵查"},{"start":4727.668,"end":4746.286,"text":"黃仁旭會不會被科技偵查?會不會?我們科技偵查是針對個案做壞罪偵查來收集證據。會不會對普遍性人民的這些的資料我們在做收集的。你這不是廢話了?國會聽證調查也不會對普遍性人民做這個調查啊?聽證調查還有門檻啊?我要問你是什麼?會不會嗎?有沒有可能性嗎?黃仁旭會不會被科技偵查?有沒有可能性嗎?"},{"start":4751.775,"end":4757.119,"text":"我直接告訴你有為行政院辯護守護的那個一個所謂的政治的一個框架沒有關係我直接告訴你我要問你問題是什麼立法院都還有113位立委的決議才能夠實施聽證調查作為高門檻"},{"start":4776.786,"end":4792.997,"text":"可是我看法治我講的是法治局意見我是要請您來解釋疑問不等於是反對喔現在設計只要檢察官檢察事務官司法警察司法警察官認為有必要時就可以用科技偵查是不是是不是這一條已經拿掉啦"},{"start":4799.158,"end":4808.103,"text":"立法院要新增所謂的不能或難以其他方法收集或調查證據之要件作為該等科技偵查方案門檻嗎?要鎮定這項嗎?有要鎮定這項嗎?"},{"start":4815.11,"end":4832.458,"text":"這個我們這個必要的吼這個特這個整科技的一個其實他比前天我要你把門檻再跟我講一遍嘛他只要是比照搜索的一個門檻比照搜索的門檻所以包括所謂的我們講的這個所謂的GPS也是一樣沒有這24小時檢察官判斷這個問題拿掉了沒有嗎"},{"start":4836.476,"end":4837.057,"text":"審查及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":4852.377,"end":4879.048,"text":"我只講20小時的必要時來來來沒關係沒關係我來問你齁今天你的所謂的門檻跟我們現在現行的所謂的那個通訊監察保障的那個通訊監察書的方法一樣嗎這個不一樣不一樣嗎曾以其他方法調查人無效果或以其他方法調查合理顯示為不能達成目的或重大危險之情形有這個門檻嗎"},{"start":4882.113,"end":4885.795,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":4906.96,"end":4925.735,"text":"今天GPS也好手機也好定位也好定位黃仁勛立法院法治局認為說這個可能要有更嚴謹的法律安全保障程序我不知道今天怎麼我今天請問你嘛法治局裡面意見我請問我們的法務部怎麼回應你們看法是什麼"},{"start":4931.65,"end":4953.528,"text":"他認為齁,基本上因為委員報告齁,這個短期的本來就是這個短期的他那個干率本來就是程度很低短期程度很低這短期,因為短期沒辦法收集到這個短期,如果短期沒有的話我們就直接就沒關係,待會還要大體討論還有主條審查,我們再一一討論,以上好,謝謝羅委員,謝謝曾部長接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言"},{"start":4968.203,"end":4972.706,"text":"謝謝張偉有請我們法務部正部長有請正部長我們司法院那個刑事廳廳長好不好廳長今天也有來部長早還有廳長那我想幾個問題要來就教就是說今天我們這整個科技偵查法這個其實是"},{"start":4996.619,"end":5013.342,"text":"人民也期待但是人民期待的是整個犯罪真實或者犯罪的一個整個針防裡面可以提供政黨機關更強大的一個武器可是期待提供這個強大的武器是要發現這個真實打擊犯罪可是"},{"start":5014.4,"end":5037.947,"text":"也會擔心確實有人權上的一個憂慮讓我幾個問題來就教就是說你比如說我們在四年前科技偵查的一個草案當初就是有一些人權上的一個爭議像是比如說不符合這個虛情法官審理同意以後檢方或司法警察才能執行的法官保留這樣一個規定後來我們法務部去做了版本去做了一些修訂"},{"start":5038.687,"end":5057.515,"text":"錢防制法修正草案案 案 案 例如公共空間在檢警修正的時候只能連續二十小時共計兩天超過的部分就是要法官保留在M化車跟手機通訊監察都採用法官保留的一個原則這個其實往好的方向去做一個修正這個代表法務部這邊其實也"},{"start":5059.497,"end":5084.018,"text":"對這個手段,你們也會有疑慮啦,這進步是一個好事啊。但是本席還是想來就叫法務部或者說刑事廳廳長就是說,這一部法案法案你們認為,有哪些地方還要精進的地方,比較符合人群的一個保障。我對你的看法,如果是這連結出來可能給你講比較困難。聽到你的看法,你如果站在院方的看法,你的看法會怎麼樣?"},{"start":5085.623,"end":5113.232,"text":"謝謝委員指教那有關於科技偵查法這個整個立法過程修法過程我這草案提出的過程行政院一直都有參與有參與7次的相關的審議那我們認為我們當時所認為有疑慮的部分那行政院這邊法務部這邊都已經參財了就目前為止我覺得在成績化的處理跟各個程序的審查的部分我覺得是我們認為目前我們是可以認同的以上"},{"start":5113.837,"end":5118.703,"text":"目前你覺得可以接受的我倒認為啦你像比如說我們這支法案呢"},{"start":5119.98,"end":5146.326,"text":"我這兩天才去看了德國的刑事訴訟法了那我們確實是去大量的去援引他援引人家進步的立法當然是一個好事啊但是我比較擔心的就是我們學了半套學了半套你知道比如說你這個部分條文採法官保留的原則但是你卻沒有去同步採納發動的要件那種嚴謹性跟受干預第三者的這樣的一個影響"},{"start":5147.466,"end":5157.891,"text":"又或者說你在告知義務或者在權力救濟的部分我們去採了德國行動訴訟法第101條強調什麼時候要告知當事人以第三人的不同的一個規範我就以這次法務部提出來的第四條為例所以如果調查人員認為犯罪嫌疑可能觸犯到三年以上有歧途刑必須要法官保留才可以使用空拍機還有監看這些設備因為可能會干涉到非當事人可是"},{"start":5175.64,"end":5190.93,"text":"我們同時去參考德國的刑事訴訟法那個100H那個地方就是我們知己那個設計其中另外兩個包含的一個但書裡面要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實其他手段都沒有辦法"},{"start":5191.75,"end":5205.604,"text":"還有第二個就針對非調查主體你必須要事實上跟當事人有關聯所以我就要來請教部長或者廳長對於制度性保障當事人跟非當事人的這個發動條件我們把它漏掉了這個我看聽到你繼續說你認為呢"},{"start":5212.781,"end":5240.276,"text":"這個部分如果要比照所謂的通保法的部分我想在我應該有看過的行事書那個德國行事書他有相關的通信監察的部分的規定的話他也是用列舉的重罪原則或是列舉的罪名那包括所謂的罪惡手段性原則或者叫做侵害罪小原則用這個方式來做處理當然啊你這叫做自視教科書講法對對對我的意思說那你對這一些那個其他人不相干的人造成的損害你怎麼辦的影響啦他不要說損害啊"},{"start":5242.335,"end":5271.254,"text":"因為你這個設計喔你那個到第七條那個是有霸王條款捏因為霸王條款是很可怕的捏我是認為啦法務部跟德國的版本有一個基礎的概念就是說犯罪嫌疑如果是重大經過法官保留可以採用科技偵查這樣的一個極端的一個手段可是呢德國刑事訴訟法我們去抄到為什麼說你抄了半套他們是你要窮盡一些必要的那個你現在的一個手段沒有辦法以後啊你才可以去向法官來申請啊"},{"start":5272.472,"end":5274.875,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":5291.343,"end":5292.625,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5309.363,"end":5310.424,"text":"錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5327.745,"end":5351.559,"text":"你如果用法務部的版本會變成說我今天去調查一個罪行重大的一個嫌疑犯經過法官保留以後呢就可以直接用最極端的手段你說變成我們去抄人家就沒有窮盡一切這個偵查的手段的精神在啦我擔心的是這個啊所以你現在也開始在點頭啊所以我要請教的就是說你們有沒有可能在調整的一個地方有沒有可能部長"},{"start":5357.594,"end":5375.049,"text":"其實我們現在的科技科技偵查環境線裡第二條就是GPS還有第三條M花車跟第四條的那種熱血性的這一種的設備事實上這個對人的因為他不可錄音嘛他不可錄音也不能吃他那個內容嘛"},{"start":5375.549,"end":5381.873,"text":"所以他只是只是追蹤那個這個我知道啦所以這個賦予賦予偵查人員更強大的武器這個我知道啦你那講會講武器對等啦但是我講的是說當事人人權的一個保障你的社你的社程的一個範圍啦你像比如說啦你現在講齁你現在目前的版本線三種太陽區告知受調查的當事人而已喔"},{"start":5400.805,"end":5406.427,"text":"第一個法案許可的或者緊急狀況經過法案核發的緊急狀況經法院停職以後來進行施行調查的這一些以現在的目前的草案的一個設計的話你去看你若我資料若沒有超過24小時的我就一天叫一個年輕人說來欸欸柏丁有時候給你懷孕懷孕23小時就好給他懷孕23小時就好或是連鎖不要超過兩天這樣就好"},{"start":5423.231,"end":5424.932,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5433.527,"end":5440.21,"text":"不是嘛,你是院方喔。以下你第七條的法王條款、緊急狀況、實施科技偵查三天內都可以事後來追認喔。沒人知道你就要審過了啦。我的意思就是說,叫你們重新再考慮一下有一個好處。你事後才可以去追蹤,來看看說我們這副法令通過以後,我們有沒有去超越人權保障還是說我們會比較不好意思,我們用這個手段喔。"},{"start":5462.699,"end":5464.401,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5470.148,"end":5474.29,"text":"乾綠是當然我知道你們會認為輕微但是輕不輕微啊每一個人的判斷會有所不同但是在這個過程裡面我會擔心造成腐爛然後大家馬上都跳到第七條去"},{"start":5498.767,"end":5515.451,"text":"我又要跟你說了就哪怕是剛羅志祥在他在質詢的部分他也是他也是自己擔心這個民眾一定希望你們有更好的武器去打擊犯罪可是呢他真的民眾還是會有這樣的一個疑慮像我就會有這個疑慮我認為這個有疑慮這如果過去你看以前馬王征征的時候好夭壽喔這波如果還有這個法律下去"},{"start":5525.444,"end":5528.386,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5555.407,"end":5561.192,"text":"庭長,你怎麼那麼糾激?你那個24小時的啦,沒有超過兩天的啦,沒有糾激啊,都白看的啊,愛怎麼看就怎麼看,老實講你就變透明人,誰任何人都會變透明人,我擔心的會有這個啦,我就不要超過24小時就好了啊,整天叫個年輕人跟你們對啊。"},{"start":5576.65,"end":5600.795,"text":"有沒有這個問題來清檔你有沒有這個問題這個事實上在我們在草案演繹的時候當時有跟法務部那邊有一些提出有一些看法那我說在透過行政的開案的程序就是說警察機關在實施科技偵查的時候他記得要做行政開案那開案的時候才可以追蹤他到底有沒有超過24小時或是累計超過兩天這部分那在事後你可以用行政監督的方式來做處理"},{"start":5601.595,"end":5625.494,"text":"對我知道我知道你們想會講到行政監督啦好啦我如果行政警察局啦還是我如果是調查局啦你檢察官法官你事後根本就不會想去監督啦就是輕微嘛23小時沒有超過24小時嘛沒有連續超過兩天嘛我的意思是說你怎麼樣去踐行這個通知當事人的一個程序這個部我們有漏掉我之所以會特別點出這個就是說因為我們第七條是一個帝王條款那個是最嚴重的"},{"start":5628.274,"end":5629.855,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":5639.588,"end":5640.489,"text":"洗錢防制法及保障法草案案 案"},{"start":5670.592,"end":5676.017,"text":"審查及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及保障法律及"},{"start":5685.157,"end":5686.338,"text":"洗錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。"},{"start":5705.549,"end":5728.769,"text":"你要去發現追溯犯罪然後把讓這個刑法權來具體的一個實現我向大家都不會質疑啊那這個法定程序跟保障這個我以上我提出了這幾個哈我都要看廳長你還一直覺得我都對話啊但是提出來的法務部這個地方我就不曉得裡面有沒有可能這個部分再去做加強或者去調整"},{"start":5730.376,"end":5731.057,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5745.171,"end":5770.885,"text":"這部分我們這個這個法律當然是沒有規定那個內空期制但是我們會整個通過我們會會做一個訂定一個內空的一個一個內空跟集合的一個要點這部分我一定要管制我比較煩惱的是今天吵一半而已啊這個我們就啊這個請委員放心這個我們會會是因為德國刑事署法的部分你今天給他衝一半去買啊你像我剛才講的那個保文就漏掉了我是認為可以再討論一下啦好不好"},{"start":5774.318,"end":5774.859,"text":"謝謝專委員、謝謝政部長、謝謝廳長接下來請鍾嘉斌鍾委員"},{"start":5799.377,"end":5802.079,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5817.988,"end":5831.407,"text":"負擔好聽長好部長我們看到了今天所謂的科技偵查法大家在討論到跟刑訴之間的一個體制選的問題那麼我現在看一下這個需求很久了為什麼到現在大家因"},{"start":5831.977,"end":5834.801,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 規定是屬於新型的強制偵查,所以必須要符合正當法律的程序。」請問李廳長是不是有這樣的一個判決?"},{"start":5851.579,"end":5871.566,"text":"是的在106年就手就發現需要了對不對好部長那麼在110年的同樣的有一個刑事判決說M化車他在犯罪偵查的效率與人民的基本權保障他有個衝突跟抉擇需要明確規定和妥適立法請問部長是不是因為這樣的關係我們趕快推出了科技偵查法"},{"start":5872.816,"end":5881.392,"text":"其實科技偵查推已經推一段時間一段時間那對啊從106 110都被告知啦那為什麼現在才推出了科技偵查及保障法呢"},{"start":5882.472,"end":5907.364,"text":"那這部分的確是我們現在的科技的發展之心而已齁。我是說很早就知道可是法體制的一個嚴格好像有點嚴當我們看一下齁。在四年前是不是法務部曾經有預告過法案?有。有嗎齁那時候是蔡部長的時候。那時候我們看到的在野黨提出說科技偵查出爐全民公敵威權再現。是不是由於在野黨的質疑使得我們法務部的腳步慢了下來?"},{"start":5910.785,"end":5934.048,"text":"那這個他是要跟委員報告因為的確是科技偵查這部分各位的那個可能各界的意見是非常通是的所以各界的意見都很多所以花了很多時間去整合各類的意見所以到現在仍然有要求放在刑事訴訟法或者是用科技偵查法的專法來訂定是不是這樣的一個體制選擇就存在了的確是有這個好那我們往下看"},{"start":5934.628,"end":5935.228,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案 。"},{"start":5959.713,"end":5976.279,"text":"檸檬局的飛機也是空拍啊,那我們用無人也是空拍啊,甚至美軍使用的戰術使用的那種微型的進去室內去看人質被綁票在哪裡的也是空拍啊,那那種東西很難界定嘛,那目前你們就把它先暫時放在一邊是不是這樣?"},{"start":5977.479,"end":5994.124,"text":"我們現在科技偵查法科技偵查的保障法科證法最主要是我們我們要把新的一些坑可以使用的科技工具納入列舉的方式所以我們先是在234是列舉這三條所以未來如果有新的科技偵查的方式出來"},{"start":5994.684,"end":5996.125,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6016.041,"end":6040.997,"text":"這繼續24小時還有未達兩日對但是呢24小時內的話本來是法官保留剛剛有委員在詢問但是你們就認為偵查有必要時嘛就把它有點放寬到偵查有必要時不是由檢察官來認定那麼什麼是有必要時我們這個必要時是比照搜索的一個概念好那麼可以放在聯繫人的身上嗎因為我們犯罪偵查都有一個犯嫌嘛"},{"start":6041.618,"end":6054.77,"text":"那如果說我們無法找到范賢你們限縮到要跟范賢確認有聯繫有哪些條件讓你們在24小時內基於偵查有必要就可以發動你們有哪些的規範"},{"start":6057.964,"end":6067.49,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":6083.2,"end":6102.923,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案件,甚至是跟可能你們犯罪偵查的對象有關聯的人或車都有可能,好那這就是我們很關心的,也是為什麼我認為說必須將原定的20日以上的法官保留限縮在24小時以上,就必須有法官來認定,那在24小時以內才准予依據偵查的必要性來實施,是不是這樣子。"},{"start":6104.278,"end":6123.204,"text":"好,那我們那接下來看一下了GPS人臉追蹤辨識跟車牌的自動化辨識我們看到了啦其實呢在德國呢他2021年在世修牌他們刑訴的當中納入了包括這樣的一個監視器那請問這樣的一個監視器有人臉辨識跟車牌自動辨識你們有做區隔嗎"},{"start":6128.727,"end":6131.689,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6152.036,"end":6177.466,"text":"我們基本上是認同的因為在車輛車牌的部分是在公共空間在自己駕駛人到底是誰他沒辦法完全連結到個人的隱私的包括他生活圖像的問題所以單純車牌的部分我們認為我們認同法務部剛剛的見解好我們講到GPSGPS呢他是基於安置主動安置一個追蹤裝置在人或物件的身上"},{"start":6178.166,"end":6180.768,"text":"車牌及車輛是公共上可辨識的,基於追蹤嫌犯的可能移動位置入境,所以我們用車牌來調取。」"},{"start":6198.49,"end":6201.271,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。」"},{"start":6228.242,"end":6233.836,"text":"這個這個委員你關心這個這個問題這個是在這個我們在草案裡面並沒有這些的一些的"},{"start":6234.605,"end":6255.803,"text":"沒有啊,車牌自動辨識要有前端,要有攝影機啊。有攝影機我才知道拍到車牌啊。有車牌在我的數據資料庫裡面,我才知道它移動的路徑啊。這就是車牌自動辨識的目的嘛,不是嗎?這是叫我們過往的一個資料,不是我們這要處理的問題。我當然知道,就是說現在要有配置監視器,要有配置監視器影像的大數據的資料庫。大數據的資料庫要有一個車牌辨識軟體。"},{"start":6259.486,"end":6260.428,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6273.22,"end":6275.662,"text":"那這部分我不是請那個防證次來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":6299.938,"end":6322.016,"text":"所以要知道車輛的現實狀況在哪裡,那他也可以（他所事後的調查是刑事訴訟法上的規範,不是我們自己正常法正法。其實我們常常知道在一般民眾常常說我的車子丟了,找不到了,請警方幫我協詢,這時候是屬於事後的一個追查嗎,是不是這樣子。好那這個我車子遺失遺失失竊,我的追查呢是另外這個,好往下看齁。"},{"start":6322.796,"end":6323.277,"text":"券券券券券券券"},{"start":6337.625,"end":6339.747,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6365.492,"end":6366.725,"text":"你們怎麼去決定要撈哪些號碼?"},{"start":6368.473,"end":6376.557,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":6397.408,"end":6426.143,"text":"公務員報告因為M4車他這種科技方法使用的技術的過程當中他可無可避免的會收集到第三人他只有號碼他的過程中收集到號碼對那號碼本身沒有個人個人資料就號碼因為他分析工具的特性死難會收集到號碼所以我們要求只有在比對的過程當中你可以技術上必須會收集到這時候你可以暫時的保有但一旦分析完了你就必須要無關就要刪除"},{"start":6426.403,"end":6433.012,"text":"所以這個號碼本身是未來你們進行對犯罪犯罪有偵查必要的連結才會去把它找出來"},{"start":6434.711,"end":6436.892,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6463.055,"end":6464.076,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6478.463,"end":6494.574,"text":"檢查的發動者他可能會因此而窒息其他與跟犯罪偵查無關的資訊那如果他這幾時候有對外洩露或者說察覺到室內的隱私行為這些情況那他如果有做一些呃非偵查以外的使用那你們怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":6498.352,"end":6525.639,"text":"各位報告我們的法官法以及我們的檢察官倫理規範就這個違反檢察官倫理情節重大委員座提到這個情形本來我們法官法就有他送評鑑的記者但是通報法第27條第二項是有他其實是一個重複規定他是重複規定所以你們認為通報法的27條第二項重複規定你們在裡不需要規定當然用法官法的第30條第二項第89條第4項就可以了他本來就是要送個案評鑑好那最後呢我們說的他案無關或違法取得證據的禁用行為"},{"start":6526.599,"end":6538.587,"text":"在刑事訴訟法第158條之四他有規定那目前通法法18條之一也有規定但是在我們這裡沒有規定你覺得有沒有你是認為也是重複規定不需要再定還是認為這裡面我們需要再加強"},{"start":6541.065,"end":6542.867,"text":"所以這些問題來了之前有提到刑事訴訟的問題目前克森法雖然獨立立法"},{"start":6567.768,"end":6578.898,"text":"但他相關的一些防防備的規定他是要適用到行事訴訟法的規定是不是這樣子那包括可是通保法我們有有做重複的規定啊那你們認為有沒有必要"},{"start":6580.282,"end":6580.622,"text":"這段的說明很重要"},{"start":6599.443,"end":6628.289,"text":"科偵法及通保法因為是一個前者涉及到有內容後者涉及到只是一個外部行為的路徑或者說確切的位置並沒有涉及到他的內容所以在他的保障的規範上強度上就沒有像通保法是這樣的是這樣意思嗎?好 部長那因為待會我們要繼續做大體討論跟主要審查所以希望未來您剛剛回應到黃委員的說的包括我們建新改檢察官們的期待希望未來部長有機會多多到跟第一線的人員多多做這些經驗跟意見的交流可以嗎?可以"},{"start":6629.269,"end":6654.346,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。好謝謝好我們備詢官員請回我們接下來請林思明委員好謝謝主席請部長"},{"start":6660.589,"end":6661.369,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6691.58,"end":6716.921,"text":"我首先請教部長全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法除了我們追蹤嫌犯位置的資訊還能收集到哪些相關的環境資訊就是說你用全國衛星的定位系統你去定位這個犯罪嫌疑人除了他的位置以外你還可以收集到什麼相關的資訊"},{"start":6721.684,"end":6722.505,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案。"},{"start":6740.566,"end":6765.316,"text":"所以只知道他的行蹤行蹤他追蹤那個行蹤追蹤他這台車子的這個這個蹤跡蹤跡軌跡而已是所以我就很好奇了因為你後段學說或其他以非辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置那部長那這一這一條後段講說或其他非辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法"},{"start":6766.147,"end":6793.158,"text":"事指哪些方法你可不可以歷史一下這個像我們現在最主要是我們在美國那個GPS那歐盟的那邊有那個潛力類的一個定位的一個系統事實上都是在追蹤這個軌跡就是位置而已是所以你就是反正除了就非生物特徵的其他的方法對就你講只有這個嗎因為你就講就全球衛星定位系統這個我們大家很了解GPS嘛對"},{"start":6794.138,"end":6796.12,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案"},{"start":6814.542,"end":6830.131,"text":"我們我們知道了國外當然你先只是講說用全球衛星GPS的定位系統那我們知道國外有所謂的天眼系統這個天眼系統可以看到利用衛星定位啊可以清楚的看到說嫌犯他的蹤跡"},{"start":6831.653,"end":6833.834,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":6857.392,"end":6858.193,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":6875.458,"end":6894.077,"text":"他們可以利用這個衛星定位系統很清楚的看到說這個嫌犯他是在哪一個這個房間裡面哪一個房間裡面那這個人是不是他們要追蹤的人那我們的這一套系統只能達到什麼程度"},{"start":6895.444,"end":6900.246,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":6924.498,"end":6926.98,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6937.538,"end":6965.095,"text":"這個委員很清楚對啊所以道高於尺磨高於杖對如果說我們要讓科技偵查真的發揮它的效用我個人覺得說可能在某部分我們要有所突破要有所突破否則這個再用這種傳統的方式來這個做一個科技偵查其實我個人覺得在這種AI大數據的時代我們這科技的偵查方法其實是落伍的"},{"start":6966.636,"end":6984.476,"text":"我講很簡單的例子啦齁。如果說現在我因為你剛才提到說這個呃就是空拍機的問題啊齁那這一次的條文我們看到第三條的欸就是條文裡面的規定喔是不是到底有沒有包含空拍機啊有沒有包含空拍機就是在呃"},{"start":6987.639,"end":7003.839,"text":"這個條文第四條沒有包含空拍機嗎但是部長你看你的條文規定講說檢察官或檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本行三年以上有刑徒刑之罪"},{"start":7004.58,"end":7023.731,"text":"有相當理由認為具隱密或私密合理其擔之空間內之人或物與本案有關得從該空間外使用非實體侵入性之科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及攝錄影像。」所以從這個條裡面你講說得從該空間外"},{"start":7029.126,"end":7041.407,"text":"來使用非實體侵入性質方法對該空間內之人來監看或者錄影。」所以條文裡面看並沒有排除空拍機啊?這部分因為"},{"start":7043.018,"end":7068.161,"text":"因為他從這是一個這一條是處理那個要營救因為現在炸團比如說機房實在很隱密的一個空間內或者是把人囚禁在裡面一個空間內那這部分我們這種科技我們只是說必用最有名的就是我們熱顯性去測那個溫度去形成那個圖像所以不然我剛才會提到說那個空拍機他直接是可以攝錄的在整個這個技術性這個是"},{"start":7069.662,"end":7096.4,"text":"除了沒辦法以外那空拍機主要是適用在一個公共空間那這個不是對室內的一個一個偵查的一個方式那另外空拍機當然在在空拍機可以在戶外可以去用其他的搭載設備譬如說委員長關心像M花車的那種設備或者GPA這種設備當然這個就要就就不能空拍機就不能獨立來規定空拍機的性質這還回歸到我們那個科偵法裡面的做一個規範的"},{"start":7098.044,"end":7114.901,"text":"是那個部長所以我該會講到說其實這部科證法的偵查的手法我個人一直覺得真的很保守我再講就是說你講說可以用什麼高倍數的攝影機或照相機透過窗戶拍攝屋內囚禁被害人的情況或透過熱顯像設備探知內部溫度等"},{"start":7121.686,"end":7146.634,"text":"來去做調查那實際上為了保護人這個我們人權啊為保護隱私啦所以你什麼進入屋內拍照然後在屋內專攝攝影機放是極非許可的範圍嗎所以我聽起來啊這個條文的設計看起來這跟偵信社在監看監看這個過去在屋外一直監看說哎這個外面去監看屋內有什麼動靜沒有兩樣哎"},{"start":7148.817,"end":7150.666,"text":"我們的科技偵查是用這種方式喔?"},{"start":7152.369,"end":7175.822,"text":"因為最主要還是要監護隱私的一個保障因為在一個人的隱私的基本權這部分我們是非常注意的所以我的感受就是說我們還停留在非常低階的一個科技偵查方式裡面實際上我剛才也跟你提到嘛就是說當然國外的天眼系統這個涉及到當然人權的保障的隱私各方面那我們認為在這個條文的設計裡面沒有那麼先進"},{"start":7178.624,"end":7203.792,"text":"但是現在AI大數據的時代我們透過衛星的定位其實都可以或者空拍機啊剛才你都空拍機你都不敢講到底空中調查含不含蓋在這一個條文裡面好像法務部也很保守我剛才聽到幾個委員在問你你也想說這個空中調查應該他好像剛才次長講說這個應該在刑事訴訟法裡面好像有相當的授權但看不出來"},{"start":7205.293,"end":7206.695,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":7218.157,"end":7241.334,"text":"但是第三人的資料我想相關的法規你可以即時銷毀嗎?那個剛才委員有提到就是對內的那個空拍機我們空拍機如果說掛著那個那個熱顯性熱顯性熱顯像儀或者是MRF可以收集這些的一些相關的。是啊所以我想其實這個立法我還是希望法務部未來在這個實務上的運作上面可以做"},{"start":7242.575,"end":7266.495,"text":"可能真的要做更先進高科技各方面的一個事務的研討方面你可能要再去探究是否則只有這樣法這樣規定我個人覺得這個說要打炸喔這個很有限的這個可能方法手段上面太落伍了啦我我只能這樣講了另外就是說我還是要講再給我一分鐘就是說我們在這個如果說你要去去用這個"},{"start":7269.155,"end":7270.835,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7290.956,"end":7318.267,"text":"條文裏面好像沒有規定到最強是第四條啦,第四條就熱選像以的那個像我們那個台版柬埔災案就這個這個一個問題啦但是現在就如果你不知道犯罪嫌疑人的手機號碼,你只知道被害人的手機啊,家屬提供給你啊,你是不是對被害人的手機號碼,你也要去做一個追蹤啊,這可以是啊,包含在這個條文裏面嗎,這個在第第三條是第三條可以"},{"start":7318.667,"end":7320.508,"text":"連被害人的也可以去做一個．"},{"start":7350.581,"end":7351.642,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":7373.532,"end":7393.737,"text":"這裡提出來的科技偵查及保障法草案確實是有蠻多的疑慮那剛剛前面幾個委員其實又談了他們解釋了這個相關條文之後的一些看法那我這裡我也這個會再提出我對於這部法案的幾個疑點幾個問題點第一個其實在你們的第一條裡面你們的這個很就是"},{"start":7401.451,"end":7414.968,"text":"要設置科技偵查及保障法的一個重要的目的就是為了要追溯犯罪可是本席以為追溯犯罪的犯罪概念會不會過廣"},{"start":7417.213,"end":7418.575,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7437.677,"end":7440.238,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":7462.458,"end":7482.236,"text":"這部分我們當然科技偵查他沒有去明列線說是哪一種的犯罪的一個類型但是我想我們再各二三四條那個是我們對科技偵查他有去列舉哪些可以做哪些科技不是你們現在只是手段我現在就是具體跟你們講我希望說你們可以去看一看那個情報工作法"},{"start":7482.836,"end":7507.995,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 bicyn 報工作法里面其實他也給這個情報人員他有一些可以去收集資料啊資訊的這樣的一個手法那麼但是呢他是會限縮在是一些重大的犯罪比如說涉及到什麼內亂外化有洩露國家機密等等的那我建議說你們這個部分應該要再去解鎖一下有一些如果做一些不是那麼重要的一個犯罪行為難道也必須要動用到這個科技偵查嗎畢竟這個是會"},{"start":7512.538,"end":7537.02,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 會侵害到個人的資訊隱私這個部分。然後第二個部分就是剛剛大家也在講的就是在第二條裡面對於什麼叫做非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法可不可以請部長再舉例一下用全球衛星定位系統這個大家清楚可是什麼叫做其他非以辨識個人生物特徵的科技方法"},{"start":7537.739,"end":7539.54,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7556.474,"end":7559.417,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7571.567,"end":7599.18,"text":"規律定位系統是怎麼樣的系統?就跟美國那個什麼GPS只是做一個定位追一個人的定位那個行蹤而已。我跟你講嘛如果說是這樣的系統你們現在還是採取這樣的一個系統方法的話我覺得還是很落伍嘛不要說什麼我們我不知道這個部長你有沒有使用過Google MapGoogle Street你現在透過Google的地圖你都可以看到非常清楚如果說我知道部長您家的位置我可以一直放放放大看到你們家現在的窗戶你們的這個窗簾"},{"start":7601.181,"end":7602.822,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7617.981,"end":7621.744,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":7642.619,"end":7647.684,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹖一、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":7661.938,"end":7681.597,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 都可以採取這樣子你們現在所說的這種定位偵查法那我想了解的就是說那在你們內部未來會有一個內內控機制嗎檢察官他自己一個人說他要今天要去透過這樣的一個這個衛星定位系統要去做追蹤"},{"start":7682.841,"end":7690.043,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 議案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會"},{"start":7708.187,"end":7722.64,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,而其中一人擬具:「洗錢防制法第五條之一條文"},{"start":7732.688,"end":7745.518,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12"},{"start":7761.943,"end":7788.515,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案件,告訴他們說其實我們當時在調查這個的這個相關案件的時候其實你們的資訊也被也被我們所收集到了這個會通知會通知但是如果說以一看我們還在分別如果說干液極少的就隱私干液非常小的就譬如說我們那個短期的那個GPS的追蹤行動這部分短期的因為只不到是誰來決定這影響很小"},{"start":7789.48,"end":7789.82,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案．一）三）"},{"start":7812.039,"end":7814.52,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。閱讀委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7840.247,"end":7861.822,"text":"我認為在這部法律裡面不應該授權給執法機關有這麼大的授權範圍所以我建議你們要將所謂的什麼叫做後續還有偵查或調查目的你明明之前的調查案子已經結束了跟委員報告其實以干預程度比較高的通報法這部分也是這樣的規定的"},{"start":7862.873,"end":7869.236,"text":"所以現在通保法才被人詬病嘛那現在那個部分就是不明確謝謝你提醒我那這部分的話也要求這個通保法有關於這個後續怎麼調查目的這種有不明確概括授權範圍太廣的這個相關的條文你們都要把它提出來要檢討修正因為在過去這些年來其實已經這個大家對於"},{"start":7888.048,"end":7889.409,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":7917.619,"end":7919.701,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7947.739,"end":7948.2,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。"},{"start":7967.501,"end":7968.422,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7985.882,"end":8012.108,"text":"好那我們剛剛的會議宣告我們做個修正齁待會我們進行到11點休息或者是今日的詢答結束那接下來我們請鄭委員鄭錢鄭鄭錢鄭正元我們不在我們請張家俊委員張家俊張正元不在我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在我們請林楚英委員林楚英林楚英委員不在我們請邱志偉委員邱志偉邱志偉委員不在我們請"},{"start":8013.268,"end":8025.476,"text":"錢防制法修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8034.167,"end":8050.3,"text":"打炸司法一定要加速立法我們都希望在這個會期能夠來完成讓科技的打法打讓科技的打炸能夠執法有據同時來確保保障國人抗炸的能力也要再提升啊下一頁"},{"start":8051.261,"end":8071.955,"text":"那我一直認為我們要進入修法之前其實我們要對於目前的詐欺罪的案件各案類來進行分析才能夠有效診斷出最有效的利器是什麼那我手上呢我花了一些時間去分析我手上拿的是2016到2020、2021所整理的詐欺罪案件統計分析部長您知道這個資料嗎"},{"start":8080.28,"end":8094.335,"text":"這是我們法務部來統整的那我們就就教於您喔我在分析這整份資料裡頭看到詐欺罪的案件逐年攀升而且已經躍居各類刑案之冠"},{"start":8095.356,"end":8099.018,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":8121.448,"end":8149.871,"text":"券4899 124899件他已經到6位數了所以一年間增加了5.8%一年間就增加了36940件所以這個趨勢是快幅的往上走在這個2020開始而詐欺罪的平均年增率也是所有的刑事案件裡頭最高的高達18.6%所以你要不要分析一下這個趨勢"},{"start":8151.83,"end":8176.777,"text":"的確是詐欺的因為詐詐團的一個詐欺手法不斷的一個翻新而且就結合新的一個科技的一個發展所以變成說他他的一個一個一個才會有所以一個是新興工具的運用嗎所以我們要也要跟進我們的新興的打詐的工具第二個其實是讓他們直接食髓知味嗎覺得有利可圖嗎"},{"start":8178.217,"end":8199.594,"text":"所以他們才會快速的讓很多人加入詐欺犯的這個犯行好下一頁那麼來看看哦詐欺罪案件逐年攀升之外呢在細部分析電信詐欺是所有的佔比居冠的這五年來詐欺罪總共癥結了50萬7859人當中63%就是電信詐欺恐嚇案"},{"start":8208.393,"end":8232.593,"text":"那電信詐欺恐嚇案當中呢以單純提供人頭賬戶有占將近六成19萬人最多這是最輕的一種他就是可能被拐被騙可能覺得這個貪圖小利也很好賺所以是六成是單純提供人頭賬戶的這一類那另外一類叫做車手啊單純作為車手五年間呢"},{"start":8236.86,"end":8239.222,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":8258.757,"end":8275.944,"text":"所以26、7歲的人大家都去做車手就好賺就有利可圖所以從我這個分析你又告訴我們我們要該怎麼來檢視我們的作為以電信詐欺恐嚇罪然後提供人頭賬戶的最多然後做車手的人也很多然後都是年輕人"},{"start":8277.969,"end":8304.926,"text":"這部分我們在法制上我們要跟著上腳步尤其說我們的偵查的方法要以竟然用科技的方法來詐騙來詐欺那我們就要與時俱進所以我們的GPS的系統M話車這個是最起碼的一個授權好這也是我的解讀我們要能夠診斷出狀況才能夠找出解方嘛下一頁那我再來分析喔詐欺罪的這個起訴的比例"},{"start":8306.603,"end":8328.674,"text":"這幾年來五年來呢起訴的比例是21.9%不起訴的比例是45%而電信詐欺類起訴比例是28%當中最高的就是車手這一類59%那你要不要再分析一下這樣的數字用在我們的相關修法給我們什麼樣子的一個示警跟參考"},{"start":8329.815,"end":8350.354,"text":"所以以車手的話因為我們這個起訴率最高因為車手就第一個跟那個被害人接觸的去拿到錢的就是那所以這部分我們可以用那個我們科徵法這部分草案第二條第二條就是可以用GPS追蹤那個車手的一個軌跡然後順勢上可以往他的上手去追查"},{"start":8351.109,"end":8368.959,"text":"所以現在在沒有一個科證法之前也沒有通保法的配套之前確實不起訴率是高達四成五用工具使用的少嗎即便有些人你確認他就是犯嫌可是你沒有東西去證明他有罪嗎好所以我們都同意這個立法的必要下一頁"},{"start":8370.24,"end":8396.165,"text":"進入條文前我要提醒我手上的這一份資料我覺得太重要了可是統計的資料只到2021年你們最新的update的數據應當持續再作報而且我認為都應在這個打詐司法修法前應當有最新的數據可以讓我們作為最強化參考的依據我們目前已經統計到今年的四月了那還沒上網"},{"start":8399.093,"end":8399.734,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":8416.274,"end":8417.495,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8433.484,"end":8437.105,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":8462.852,"end":8467.891,"text":"這部分是在技術上會比較那或者我們跟內政部一起來處理嘛對不對"},{"start":8469.656,"end":8495.399,"text":"我認為這個是大有必要的好嗎我們再來研議說如何來擴大整個詐欺罪的統計分析當然除了犯刑者加害者對被害人的被害原因各類我真的認為我們應當有這樣的data跟分析才能夠交相運用因為這對於我們如何去協助指導人民抗詐太重要了你要歸結出哪些抗詐的方法ABC"},{"start":8496.32,"end":8498.022,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8511.442,"end":8528.709,"text":"好謝謝下一頁好進入我們的條文打炸四法下一頁我們主委員長說了讓想騙的不敢騙已經騙的會被抓騙到手的沒得花其實今天的科證法聚焦的應當是哪一個階段"},{"start":8530.973,"end":8533.034,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":8551.519,"end":8568.196,"text":"然後再搭配這個熱血象儀來測溫救人我基本上都同意但是呢他的申請程序通知程序救濟程序以及形式執行準用都要更嚴謹就是在我們的法案裡頭下頁"},{"start":8569.864,"end":8585.8,"text":"那我也看到我們從第二條第三條第四條都有相關的對於程序保障對於人權保護也都盡可能去做了防護當然有賽業黨委員認為是不是還會造成人權強害我們在逐條的時候可以來進一步的商議喔下一頁"},{"start":8587.458,"end":8604.217,"text":"所以說這個最高法院110年度的有一個4549號的判決見解啦我想部長應該知道這個這個判決嗎也正是因為M化車欠缺了法律授權的基礎違反了法律保留的原則這讓我們更清楚看到我們需要科證法"},{"start":8604.858,"end":8622.291,"text":"我們需要一個具體的法制作業來同時兼顧憲法22條保障隱私權跟資訊自主權的範圍內但是又賦予我們行政權限辦案應當有的一個授權最好的方法就是立法來授權嘛好最後"},{"start":8623.72,"end":8641.868,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 也可補強,之前剛剛我講高達五成多是,四成五是沒有被起訴的,就是因為很多已經採證,但是在法院被認為他的證據能力是有疑義的,這也是我們立法修法的必要性嗎?對,這個是委員說的,所以我們科證法的一個,就讓這些"},{"start":8649.363,"end":8656.622,"text":"科技偵查的這些的手段這些的能夠得到法律的授權我想對打戰應該很有注意的"},{"start":8658.434,"end":8684.546,"text":"讓實質破獲所掌握的證據他具有法律賦予的證據能力可以協助他在後續的審判上定罪他而且我更認為可以讓我們執法同仁他的士氣可以受到提振否則我查了一堆案辦了一些人然後最後到法官那裡覺得沒有辦法起訴沒有辦法定罪就對大家來講是一個很大的打擊尤其這些人未來都會再回去再做同樣的"},{"start":8685.706,"end":8699.853,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案,則持續成為集團的議員,好嗎?好,不好意思,我以為有加二的時間,所以那個時間用的比較多。好,我們在除條的時候,未盡之處我們再討論。好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝吳委員,謝謝鄭部長。接下來有請吳委員中線發言,請。好,謝謝主席。那我們要麻煩部長還有李廳長。"},{"start":8714.754,"end":8735.835,"text":"請政部長跟李廳長好那個李廳長你好那我想說這邊我先跟部長跟廳長說一下我先直接破題說我的想法啦就是對於科技偵查其實我從到這邊開始我就是舉雙手贊成一定要趕快"},{"start":8736.355,"end":8741.817,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議⋯⋯"},{"start":8761.986,"end":8786.914,"text":"那我自己提的提的我自己的提案也是認為說應該就刑事訴訟法裡面我們就刑事訴訟法去修法或是另立專章都可以但是實在是我不太認為說應該是用另立專法的方式去處理啦好那我想就教一下那個司法院請問一下那個司法院對於行政院的這個科偵法的這個專法司法院有什麼想法"},{"start":8788.691,"end":8802.249,"text":"檢查及保障法的草擬過程,我們司法院一直都沒有學習。我們認為用專法來處理,那也可以適時及時符合偵查機關的需求。"},{"start":8802.97,"end":8806.193,"text":"函請審查及保障法草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第3會期司法及保障法草案 案"},{"start":8825.23,"end":8829.332,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案 及科技偵查及保障法草案案 案 及科技偵查及保障法草案案 案 及科技偵查及保障法草案案 案"},{"start":8841.457,"end":8860.015,"text":"那個我現在是問你科證法的部分吶那通保法的部分我想說已經二十年了我們就不要再討論那個部分因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留我一直是這種觀念吶不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定這樣其實對人權保障會更好否則我跟你講"},{"start":8861.687,"end":8890.444,"text":"其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候當然有一些檢察官他就會濫用嘛那自從到法官之後其實已經規範到很規避掉很多濫用的問題啦但是我一直覺得很奇怪從106年最高法院就已經就已經就判決裡面就要求說有關GPS追蹤器的使用要件他希望要趕快研擬可是這7年過去了到底司法院有做了什麼樣的什麼樣的那個改正然後去正當化這個法律程序呢"},{"start":8891.404,"end":8893.666,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":8907.045,"end":8930.163,"text":"草擬過用專章的方式在刑事訴訟法來修法但是在109年法務部就已經有公佈他的所謂的預告科技偵查法的草案那這邊也許是當時的氛圍或是當時的需要改由立法分工由法務部來處理聽長會不會有這個可能性因為訴訟法是司法院"},{"start":8934.611,"end":8938.496,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":8945.325,"end":8947.927,"text":"檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":8970.043,"end":8971.684,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案"},{"start":8997.835,"end":9025.617,"text":"這個搜索扣押的這種概念就你卻要另立專法其實我跟你說這一次院版行政院版的科偵法專法裡面的條文我沒有我沒有反對我也蠻支持的但是我今天是對於體力上面為何要另立專法而不是設在刑事訴訟法裡面更何況今天我們很多東西要求的是法官保留那今天有司法院去就刑事訴訟法去修正那不是最好嗎"},{"start":9026.818,"end":9046.236,"text":"你今天讓法務部來去定一個東西然後叫你法官來遵守我個人覺得無法想像為什麼要把體力弄成這樣所以我自己在當檢察官的時候我的一個感覺是說你到底司法院在混什麼東西的為什麼不趕快修行這訴訟法然後搞得我們以前GPS都不能用"},{"start":9047.401,"end":9048.361,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 。"},{"start":9072.166,"end":9087.172,"text":"刑事機關我們的警察機關礙於預算我們都是用比他們舊好幾代的設備在辦他們結果今天我們好不容易說辦出一個了我們希望裝個GPS然後去跟蹤他的車結果法院說不准"},{"start":9088.046,"end":9089.247,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":9116.01,"end":9142.243,"text":"法務部行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來。」委員我可以回應一下是那也在當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知啦不過我可以推敲的是偵查偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用他最貼近第一線的偵查人員他對相關的偵查手段的日新月異他的人最快的掌握住"},{"start":9142.763,"end":9144.484,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":9171.576,"end":9187.839,"text":"但是目前來講我覺得可以快速反映偵查機關所需然後做反映說適當的修正因為基本上司法院對相關偵查機關的相關偵查作為的日行便宜的相關手段我們的知識可能比較軟一點聽起來你的想法是這樣但是我的想法是比較是說"},{"start":9188.8,"end":9189.501,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":9204.577,"end":9227.595,"text":"我們會覺得會比較保障一點保障一些啦欸再給我一點時間吼好那還有吼就是更何況這些證據的認定將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡這個也都是法官在認定嗎不是檢察官啊所以這個東西吼我還是覺得我還是對於這個體力去設計由專法來處理我還是有很多的意見吼那因為時間的關係吼"},{"start":9229.096,"end":9252.823,"text":"我最後我是希望一個東西啦我想請問一下你們這些獲取的數位資訊請問部長獲取的如果這個法過了獲取的數位資訊你們怎麼監督怎麼管考怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途我們會對一個會再制定一個定定一個內規的一個一個要點讓這些執行單位那個這個有這個依循"},{"start":9254.531,"end":9264.407,"text":"所以目前都還沒有這個法律過了我們會定定一個內控的一個機制所以目前都沒有任何的那個計畫嗎?"},{"start":9274.682,"end":9289.506,"text":"檢察官開始上線在科技偵查你了就資料怎麼保存不知道有沒有像德國的話他是有一個中立的單位在在審查嗎你們去看一下那個德國他是有設置一個外部的中立單位審查"},{"start":9290.7,"end":9292.541,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":9307.83,"end":9308.59,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9333.615,"end":9351.64,"text":"就是說資料能夠讓我們瞭解一下你們對於將來的想法是怎麼樣好不好那個跟委員報告就有關你那個剛才委員提到那個歌詞的那一部分那個歌詞委員那個歌詞個人資料那個委員會的一個籌備處他們這邊是他們有他們在主管"},{"start":9351.92,"end":9371.41,"text":"我了解啦但是各自籌備處我們也會很怕各自籌備處雖然是中立機關但走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣又被大家罵到臭頭就大家都開始質疑他的中立性這是我擔心的部分啦當然我很希望說制度都很完美不要讓人去濫用制度我的想法只是這樣謝謝兩位"},{"start":9375.09,"end":9401.463,"text":"好謝謝吳昭偉謝謝政務長謝謝李廳長那所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關競速送交個別委員及本會那由於稍後呢我們條文宣讀時間約9分鐘那與會人員可利用宣讀時間去洗手間稍事休息那在條文宣讀完畢我們就直接休息到11點20我們繼續開會"},{"start":9404.48,"end":9410.443,"text":"現在請繼續宣讀現在進行討論事項那請議事人員先宣讀提案條文宣讀後我們會休息到11點20那再進行討論那如有修正動議請一併宣讀請宣讀"},{"start":9423.561,"end":9451.537,"text":"科技偵查及保障法草案行政院提案名稱科技偵查及保障法第一條為規範科技偵查以保障人權並有效追溯犯罪確保國家安全維護社會秩序特制定本法第二條偵查中檢察官任由必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置"},{"start":9453.058,"end":9480.581,"text":"檢查事務官、司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪情形及收集證據任有必要時一通。前項實施期間不得於連續二十四小時或累計於二日。實施當日不足二十四小時以一日計。有再次或繼續實施之必要者致詞應於再次實施前或期間屆滿前。由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後,"},{"start":9481.621,"end":9498.606,"text":"面記載第六條第一項各款之事項與實施調查之必要性及其理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。實施前二項調查前可預期實施期間將逾連續24小時或累積逾二日者。"},{"start":9501.843,"end":9526.658,"text":"得於實施前依前項規定向該管法院申請合法許可書,前二項法院許可之期間每次不得於30日有具繼續實施之必要者,至此應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書,"},{"start":9530.484,"end":9548.921,"text":"檢查中檢察官任有必要時得使用科技方法調查行動通訊設備之位置、設備號碼或使用之卡片號碼檢查事務官、司法警察官或司法警察因調查犯罪情形及收集證據任有必要時一同。"},{"start":9550.122,"end":9564.227,"text":"錢喪情形應由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第六條第一項各款之事項與實施調查必要性及其理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。"},{"start":9565.567,"end":9582.827,"text":"錢向許可之期間每次不得於30日有繼續實施必要者至此應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。"},{"start":9583.948,"end":9598.124,"text":"錢防制法 實施第一項調查時應技術上無可避免取得第三人之個人資料除為供第一項之比對目的外不得使用且於調查實施結束後應即刪除。"},{"start":9598.865,"end":9616.231,"text":"錢防制法第四條檢察官偵查或檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本行三年以上有期徒刑之罪有相當理由認為具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與本案有關"},{"start":9619.031,"end":9646.597,"text":"從該空間外使用非實體侵入信息科技方法對該空間內之人或物監看及錄攝錄影像,前項情形應由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載。第六條第一項各款知識項與實施調查之必要性及其理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。"},{"start":9647.917,"end":9668.477,"text":"錢向許可之期間每次不得於三十日由繼續實施之必要者至時應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書。第五條對軍事上應祕密之處所"},{"start":9672.279,"end":9688.314,"text":"費得該館長官允許不得實施前條之調查,前項情形處有防害國家重大利益者外不得拒絕。第六條第二條至第四條之許可書應記載下列事項"},{"start":9690.396,"end":9712.583,"text":"一、案由及涉犯之法條二、受調查人或物但受調查人不明者得不予記載三、使用之科技方法及使用該科技方法調查得取得之標的四、遣款之裝涉或實施方式五、執行機關六、實施期間"},{"start":9715.08,"end":9743.974,"text":"合法許可書之程序不公開之法院並得於許可書上對執行人員為適當之指示第二條之第四條之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符第七條於下列情形之一檢察官檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察有相當理由認為情況急迫而有立即實施之必要者得進行實施並因於實施後三日內"},{"start":9745.054,"end":9767.448,"text":"一（各該條規定以書面申請該管法院補發許可書一（實施第二條第一項之調查已於連續24小時或已累計於二日實施當日不足24小時以一日計二（實施第三條或第四條之調查前項之調查有下列情形之一者應即停止實施"},{"start":9768.808,"end":9792.403,"text":"檢察官不許可或於報請日期於三日未為許可之決定。二）法院未補發許可書或於申請日期於三日未為補發許可書之裁定。法院補發許可書者實施期間自實施之日起算。第一項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符。"},{"start":9793.473,"end":9809.632,"text":"行政院函請審議第18條經法院依第二條至第四條前條核發或補發許可書實施至調查結束或依前條第二項停止實施後實行機關應續名授調查人之姓名住所或居所"},{"start":9810.313,"end":9830.738,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 許可書和發機關文號實際調查期間有無獲得調查目的之資料及救濟程序陳報該管檢察官及法院由法院通知受調查人如任通知有妨礙調查目的之餘通知顯有困難或不能通知者應一併陳報調查結束或停止實施後"},{"start":9837.261,"end":9844.645,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。二）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。二）行政院函請審議:「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。二）行政院函請審議:「洗"},{"start":9862.273,"end":9867.196,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。一）行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":9881.306,"end":9900.892,"text":"第二條之第四條前條之調查所得資料,除已公案件證據之用,留存於該案卷或為後續偵查或偵查目的有必要長期留存者外,由執行機關於調查結束後保存五年,預期予以銷毀。"},{"start":9903.147,"end":9923.486,"text":"調查所得資料全部與調查目的無關者執行機關應及報請檢察官許可後銷毀之。第九條為執行刑事裁判除其他法律另有規定外檢察官檢察事務官司法警察官或司法警察得准用第二條至前條之規定實施調查。"},{"start":9924.747,"end":9942.461,"text":"第十條受調查人對於第二條至第四條第七條前條之裁定或處分不符者得依刑事訴訟法提起抗告或申請撤銷或變更之。第十一條本法自公佈日施行宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10060.998,"end":10085.598,"text":"錢防制法及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及現在設計"},{"start":10172.043,"end":10188.855,"text":"現在開會提案條文已宣的完畢現在進行討論事項審查行政院函請審議科技偵查及保障法草案那麼因為有崗位委員表示我們本案先進行大體討論大體討論後再進行逐條審查請在場委員先就大體討論發表意見來論請"},{"start":10202.675,"end":10223.625,"text":"我們先放主席我先放一段影片現在設計只要檢察官檢察事務官司法警察司法警察官認為有必要時就可以用科技偵查是不是是不是這一條已經拿掉啦這一條已經拿掉啦這一條已經拿掉啦"},{"start":10224.96,"end":10247.762,"text":"我在這邊齁我剛剛看部長不在是不是請問市長部長不在對不對我要說齁這很嚴重欸請問拿掉了沒有我唸給大家聽我們的科技偵查法的第二條偵查中檢察官任有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統及其他"},{"start":10248.943,"end":10260.141,"text":"非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官、司法警察官、司法警察因調查犯罪情形及收集證據認為有必要時議同。」"},{"start":10263.515,"end":10284.127,"text":"請問這條拿掉了嗎?顧問報告部長的意思可能誤會了這個我就是我告訴你這兩種嚴重啦第一種比較輕微嚴重是他根本不懂條文他不熟悉嘛我老實跟你講我他跟我講拿掉的時候你知道我的反應是什麼嗎我嚇一跳我想說早上看的資料難道是舊資料裡面有更新資料我沒拿到"},{"start":10285.26,"end":10290.771,"text":"結果他跟我講拿掉了他是對法條不熟悉還是說謊啊第二個更嚴重哦"},{"start":10296.291,"end":10316.518,"text":"第一條我講的我我剛剛講的不是你講什麼該關授權不受我講的就是必要性啊不是嗎他講拿掉啦必要性這個拿掉啦他拿掉啦我我再第二個我要跟跟我們這個呃部裡面說啊為什麼我要提這件事情啊因為其實剛我一看幾位委員也都表達很多的疑慮啦"},{"start":10318.178,"end":10344.273,"text":"從一開始今天科技偵查法我們確實是因為詐騙非常嚴重但是很顯然科技偵查法實施之後其實也不是只有詐騙的這個犯罪形態受約束嘛那剛剛部長跟我閃了半天第二個就是說今天我們願意授予今天檢查機關一個犯罪偵防的一個工具跟武器但是今天人權的保障也不能夠偏廢啊"},{"start":10344.913,"end":10363.999,"text":"所以說換言之今天如果說檢察官檢察事務官司法警察官認為犯罪調查有必要就可以行使第二條這個這個所謂的一個科技偵查的一個武器的時候那麼這個必要性的內涵顯然就有點模糊嘛所以這是為什麼法治局認為說應該要增列一些門檻"},{"start":10365.279,"end":10387.391,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 則不允許今天空白的讓檢察官司法警察官就行使這樣的一個對人權產生妨害的一個相關的一些一些一些作為所以換言之不是反對今天法務部今天用科技偵查的方式來偵辦犯罪偵辦詐騙而是希望在人權保障這個平衡天平上否則最近"},{"start":10388.511,"end":10415.683,"text":"最近你也發現這個所謂的王一川事件大家也是非常擔心啊那為什麼要擔心如果照這種情況之下也不用擔心啊也不只是說今天我們講第二條有一些這方面的疑慮第三條也有啊第三條今天根據第二條第三條設計偵查機關前面那個第二條他是在所謂的連續這個24小時或是兩日之後才要進到法官保留"},{"start":10416.323,"end":10423.84,"text":"那這樣對這個我們的所謂的一般民眾的包括說隱私權包括說今天相關的一些保障"},{"start":10424.901,"end":10447.396,"text":"是不是足夠,這個我覺得法務部要好好去思考去研究,很多學者也對這提出一些擔憂啦。那第二個就是說基本上包括說第三條第六條裡面講到使用科技方法追蹤未知或調查行動通訊設備,受調查對象並未區分被告或第三人。我剛剛前面有聽到我們莊瑞雄委員啊,有質詢的有講到啊。"},{"start":10448.897,"end":10475.677,"text":"你照你的方式他沒有區分的情況之下的話也許想查的是羅志強那旁邊第三人今天莊岳雄倒楣嘛在旁邊就一旦被你的射程打中啊所以被告跟第三人今天啟動科技偵查的一個做法本來就應該有不同的門檻這在我們其他形式輸送法制乃至於通信監察保護裡面也都有類似的設計嘛那為什麼今天科技偵查你想要查羅志強最後連莊岳雄一起打呢"},{"start":10476.837,"end":10480.158,"text":"函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":10494.824,"end":10523.458,"text":"但你今天你們一定要提專法你要提專法但專法裡面相關的一些我剛剛講是所謂法官保留程序性的保障這足不足夠真的我覺得法務部要注意而且最後還是要再講抱歉剛剛那個是一個很嚴重的事情你怎麼可以針對說我今天詢問你今天第二條這必要性的問題的時候你竟然跟我講那一條拿掉了就是沒有拿掉不管你任何理由在講你誤解還怎麼樣條文就是沒有拿掉啊"},{"start":10524.594,"end":10543.969,"text":"所以到底是對法條不熟所以政部長搞錯了還是說今天就是當場想要欺騙想要欺瞞那這兩個情況其實我覺得都是一個很糟糕的狀況我請法務部提供說明給我啦以上好謝謝羅委員因為我們現在是大體討論好來請那個專委員謝謝專委那個次長我延續我早上的那個質詢"},{"start":10551.704,"end":10577.861,"text":"我還是會認為說第七條這個帝王條款我不曉得你的看法會怎麼樣啦早上我看廳長也一直在那邊笑嘛那是說這種東西對話是有它的實意的啦那針對我提出的疑慮因為早上的時間比較短一點我提出的那些疑慮你像譬如說我先講第一個好了啦我們現在本來就是說打詐專法對不對那第一個其實這也不是打詐專法啦"},{"start":10579.986,"end":10581.908,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10599.746,"end":10602.167,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10625.799,"end":10628.361,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10649.565,"end":10650.466,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10666.897,"end":10668.818,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10688.012,"end":10690.394,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":10703.985,"end":10708.409,"text":"我叫你你像比如說如果哪一天立法院說你們超過24小時沒有超過24小時的累計沒有超過兩天的你們弄這樣的一個科技去偵查的數量多少你來回答是說掛齋沒有統計數字因為沒有人告訴你啊"},{"start":10719.994,"end":10747.521,"text":"你現在這個是已經是連司法警司法警察官司法警察都可以做執行判斷沒有人監督他的捏我是認為會變到最後變成腐爛你內部會你要怎麼樣去有機會去做反省這兩個問題我覺得難道你司法院或者那個次長這邊你們不覺得會有疑慮嗎以上好那我們是不是先請次長答覆那再請其他委員就大體討論進行發言來請次長"},{"start":10749.451,"end":10773.434,"text":"好那首先那個羅委員的質疑啦那必要時的要件夠不夠那事實上我們必要時這個要件在我們刑訴法裡面出現了非常多在強制處分出現的這個要件那我們拿搜索來講搜索他的要件就是必要時搜索他是對人對物一個更強制甚至進入住宅的一個人生的一個強制處分他都用這個搜必要時為要件所以"},{"start":10774.255,"end":10800.095,"text":"本案這個本案的這個條文其實他都沒有這這麼強高強度的這個強制處分所以我們用這個必要時其實立法力體力上並不是沒有這第一個第二個您提到的就是說我們這一個科技偵查法要不要去區分被告跟第三人做不同程度程度的層級化的一個構成要件來處理我跟委員報告這老師講的確德國法上他是有第三人跟被告的區別"},{"start":10800.515,"end":10828.377,"text":"但是這是一個立法我老講他是一切是個立法選擇問題在我們國家裡面的強制處分很多狀況他也沒有區分被告跟第三人我拿這一個鑑定來講鑑定也沒有他是一個很強的強制處分發鑑定許可書他本身是個很強的強制處分他也沒有在區分被告或第三人吊取票扣押這都是非常強烈的一個強制處分他沒有分被告或第三人所以我覺得強制處分要不要區分被告或第三人"},{"start":10828.877,"end":10856.496,"text":"我們其實到時候未來可以有法官在做核票之後他去做這個核票與否的這個決定並不是說一定要區分被告或第三人那另外有關於我們莊委員有提到的緊急第七條緊急的狀況事實上我們所有的強制處分幾乎都有涉緊急的例外狀況包括搜索他有緊急監聽他有緊急監聽扣押有緊急狀況可以調取票也有緊急"},{"start":10858.587,"end":10876.08,"text":"槍指主憤他必須要讓執法機關在某一個狀況之下他可以緊急去處理但是他的確要有事後的一個救濟機制就是第七條所設計的法官補發第七條不是他緊急之後就沒事他事後還要呈報法官去補發他的"},{"start":10877.941,"end":10895.93,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。 bicy 若不准許他事後會產生證據排除的問題所以他並不是說緊急之後就沒事的我們就設計他事後我講的是沒有超過24小時沒有超過兩天的我跟委員報告對那這在這第七大不規範在第七條"},{"start":10897.831,"end":10899.511,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10920.876,"end":10921.377,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。"},{"start":10936.491,"end":10956.361,"text":"檢查手段,我們認為這部分應該交由這個司法警察或檢察官來職權來行使。一旦超過了24小時,一旦超過兩天,它就有可能形成生活圖像,就要盡到我們法官保留的這個原則來進行,這樣才能符合我們偵查上的這個人權保障跟發現生死的一個平衡點啦。"},{"start":10956.941,"end":10969.673,"text":"這一點跟這一點市長我當場來回應啦就是說這個跟一般強制處分不一樣啦你去搜緊急狀況你去搜找科技那大家搞不好都會知道啦啊我們現在提供你們這個叫做神不知水鬼不覺的捏沒人知道捏"},{"start":10971.875,"end":10977.978,"text":"你你有必要性你說要去什麼人引導他去搜索,我緊急狀況可以啊,那當場人會知道啊,對不對?說不定我們說不定沒什麼叫就出來啊,啊你這不是啊,你這沒人知道啊,我是在講這樣的一個認證,你們再考慮啦,你們再考慮看看有沒有辦法有更精進加了一點什麼,這個畢竟還是一種疑慮,而且我擔心的是什麼,氾濫。"},{"start":10997.326,"end":11018.356,"text":"對各位報告啦吼那這24小時內的並不是我們沒有定在這一個課程法並不代表他不受控制只是要用什麼方法去控管他剛剛答詢的時候已經提到了24小時內司法警察去做他未來一定要在內機內控內規裡面相關的行政規定就要規範好他要怎麼樣的立案要怎麼樣的進行相關的保管程序"},{"start":11019.096,"end":11021.258,"text":"檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":11041.658,"end":11069.097,"text":"那我聽起來啦我先做一個建議你們內部先去炒你齁因為進入主條我們還是會有附帶決議的需要那其實委員所關切的就是凡走過必留下足跡啊那您在24小時內不具有檢察官保留但是你們的內禁內控是否會留下未來如果為了追查有不法獨職的時候有留下這樣的一個足跡這樣的紀錄那才能知道有沒有被做過嘛不能準規罪沒魂嘛"},{"start":11069.577,"end":11071.619,"text":"負債決議上的我們怎麼樣來表達讓未來在執行的時候這些細節的細則的部分能夠有所拘束好那我也再提醒一次因為剛我聽詳細聽了羅委員的詢問跟剛剛他跟部長的對答"},{"start":11092.478,"end":11093.339,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。"},{"start":11107.577,"end":11130.204,"text":"布送院的那個第二條的認知那我是建議你們現在的認知一定調整到送院版過來的這個認知避免跟我們委員在對話的時候產生了一些分歧好不好那現在我看到有吳昭偉有黃總昭是哪一位先你們有舉手沒有嗎我剛剛不是有看到舉手黃總昭好來因為現在我在大體討論我很想我還是"},{"start":11136.618,"end":11163.603,"text":"表達一個最基本的立場我們今天用科技偵查的手段去對於犯罪實施進行偵查在打擊犯罪的必要性上絕對是有必要的那否則的話過去產生了非常荒謬的狀況也就是這些罪犯他們已經進入高科技時代用高科技的手段在犯案"},{"start":11164.48,"end":11167.061,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":11183.997,"end":11208.257,"text":"讓我們現在整個法規範的秩序狀態下面成為了是壞人精神抖擻武器非常的多我們的檢警辦案辦案累得跟狗一樣然後最後還不一定有實際上面的效果這種荒謬的狀況在過去這幾年我們從基層的警察檢察官"},{"start":11209.478,"end":11234.196,"text":"調查局的同仁他們所提出來的抱怨其實我們都有聽到這也是為什麼我們一直催促我們一直催促不能夠讓我們科技偵查的法律授權沒有一個法律授權的基礎拖延了這麼久我當初在質詢司法院秘書長的時候其實我就講得很直白"},{"start":11235.339,"end":11253.939,"text":"德國從1992年以後到現在針對有關於科技偵查的手段在刑事訴訟法的修法是不斷的與時俱進不斷的在修人家已經修了上百個條次了結果我們的司法院動都沒有動"},{"start":11255.646,"end":11272.535,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團的立場是在針對有關於打擊犯罪必要的科技偵查手段上面根據對於不同的人權侵害的程度用層級化的法規設計"},{"start":11274.056,"end":11298.211,"text":"我相信這個應該是國內刑事訴訟法學界的共識啦也是不管是基層的檢察官或者是法官大家都可以採認的一個方法但是我認為在立法體力上我今天早上質詢的時候我相信我說的很明白了大家看完了所謂的科技偵查法的條文以後"},{"start":11299.201,"end":11321.66,"text":"除了第一條跟最後那兩條其他的部分根本就應該要規範在刑事訴訟法當中才會讓刑事訴訟法裡面就有關於發動偵查的法律授權依據強制處分科技偵查能夠比較完整的在一個法典裡要不然東跳西跳東跳西跳"},{"start":11322.481,"end":11336.758,"text":"特別是我今天針對有關於空中實施調查的方式上面你們號稱這個是一個課證法那課證法也沒規範要回到刑事訴訟法最基礎的規範條文228條來當作依據我老實講我很擔心今天"},{"start":11342.276,"end":11363.827,"text":"司法院刑事廳的廳長在立法院說放心沒有問題用228條可以當作授權的基礎那我直接的懷疑就是法官會買單嗎法官會買單嗎那當你針對有關於偵查犯罪的手段法律授權的基礎條文"},{"start":11365.305,"end":11386.051,"text":"明明就應該要放在刑事訴訟法裡面讓整個規範更完整那卻現在切出一些條文把它放在科技偵查的專法裡我老實講我知道法務部的同仁黃市長有很多的無奈你們需要用的東西嗎"},{"start":11387.231,"end":11410.258,"text":"但司法院就不關心不積極不熱衷不關他們的事情所以搞到你們必須要特別法來弄但是我們在進行有關於司法相關的修法的時候我們是沒有辦法接受或是不應該去接受法務部跟司法院兩個各掃門全邪的狀態因為"},{"start":11412.799,"end":11440.132,"text":"如果這樣子持續的不斷的下去的話那以後真的會沒完沒了以後真的會沒完沒了所以在大體的上面對於行政院終於推出了科技偵查的法律授權的基礎這件事情我們是支持的因為我們已經呼籲非常久我們事實上自己的版本提出來的時間早就提出來了我們只是一直在等排審"},{"start":11441.273,"end":11442.442,"text":"到今天都還沒有被排審"},{"start":11443.973,"end":11472.847,"text":"那你們行政院用專法的方式突然生出來了以後今天排審對內容上面剛剛一些委員他們所提出來的關心我覺得你們有必要去進一步更細緻的說明所謂更細緻的說明指的是說譬如說使用GPS在24小時之內如果我們今天要強化人權保障的話我們一開始全部都用法官保留的令狀控制"},{"start":11474.831,"end":11497.759,"text":"負不符合檢察官方案的需要?司法院對於這件事情同意或不同意?因為接下來申請令狀的申請案就全部會到司法院那邊去了。司法院準備好了嗎?還是說我們要用一些層級化的控制。有一些是事前控制,要發才能做。"},{"start":11498.539,"end":11507.386,"text":"那有一些是事後控制那不管是事前控制還是事後控制當有人違反法定的調查程序去非法"},{"start":11508.895,"end":11529.131,"text":"採取一些強制偵查的作為的時候那我們事後是不是有好的救責機制可以救責這個可能各個不同的委員大家都會提出他們的高見那可能也是法務部或者是司法院接下來要非常嚴肅面對的問題因為現在是處於在大體討論的狀態因為我們一開始在整個立法的選擇上面我們就"},{"start":11537.737,"end":11565.853,"text":"基本上是認同非常多的學者跟檢察官他們自己都認為應該要規範在刑事訴訟法裡面整個規範的體力才會完整所以我先清楚的表達我們的立場就我所知吳宗憲召委下個禮拜應該也會排刑事訴訟法放在專章裡面的一個修法的條文我希望到時候在最後立法政策的選擇上"},{"start":11567.054,"end":11583.708,"text":"到底是要透過這樣的專法還是說能夠透過在刑事訴訟法裡面把它訂完整那這件事情等到最後大家再討論要進入院會處理之前可以再有一個政策上面清楚的決斷以上"},{"start":11586.175,"end":11603.273,"text":"謝謝黃總召在那個吳釗偉說之前主席這邊先做一個程序上的說明那誠如黃總召所言有關於科技偵查是不是要再用刑訴在刑訴法當中訂定專章還是現在的行政院版是以專法的方式呈現就我個人的立場"},{"start":11603.934,"end":11605.075,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":11630.595,"end":11645.682,"text":"三個黨黨團的或者委員的版本的刑訴法那跟委員會說明一下我們的路徑因為立法例不同我們不在委員會先做抉擇而是先在委員會就相同的立法例的法案我們併案審查"},{"start":11646.963,"end":11654.669,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議:「科技偵查及保障法草案 案 行政院函請審議︰"},{"start":11664.497,"end":11666.858,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":11688.467,"end":11703.86,"text":"謝謝主席有關這個部分其實剛剛我有聽那個黃國昌召委他所說的那其實跟我剛剛在詢答的時候那8分鐘因為我跟那個黃總召並沒有溝通過這件事情但是剛剛我講的其實跟黃委員剛剛大體討論講的內容幾乎一樣"},{"start":11708.084,"end":11727.799,"text":"所以說就法律人的角度去思考這件事情其實我們的邏輯是一致的就是覺得說這個東西為什麼是另立專法但到底司法院是不是怠惰於某些事情這我想說我們兩個觀念不謀而合一定是就法律人或是像我實務界出生的或他學界出生的對於這個問題"},{"start":11729.1,"end":11731.141,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":11747.27,"end":11769.423,"text":"我用我的理解很多東西不能夠就是用用坐在辦公室裡面去試想說這個條文要怎麼設計所以在在這個到底你要賦予檢察官檢檢他們到什麼樣的的偵查的工具到什麼樣的強度其實你不能夠說用通保法的那個概念下去套"},{"start":11770.1,"end":11799.001,"text":"因為我有看到很多很多人給我的資料包括法治局那邊給我的資料其實他變成是用通保法的概念下去套人權保障然後再去套到GPS其實兩者在實務上面的運作強度完全不同如果你所有東西都要求要像通保法那樣子的話那其實沒有一個犯罪你能夠查下去第二個就是其實犯罪的偵查是非常浮動的所以為什麼德國法他在"},{"start":11800.168,"end":11801.67,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":11807.766,"end":11831.349,"text":"判罪事實交給我們我們不是神我沒有辦法知道背後的原因是什麼都必須經過偵查長時間的抽絲剝繭你甚至會發現被害人原來才是被告就被告竟然是被害人這都在實務上面非常常見的所以不可能存在說我很多東西在第一時間我就把你區分說這個人叫被告這個人叫第三人"},{"start":11833.094,"end":11859.726,"text":"這個絕對是今天你只要我覺得不管在座當過檢察官或是在看直播當過檢察官的警察的一定很了解我在說什麼所以這兩個強度的保障我認為不能拉在一起我說我看到有一些人他提的法案甚至說要求說像什麼叫沒有其他的偵查方式以後才能夠用科技偵查我覺得這個是完全不懂科技偵查不懂偵查的人在講的話"},{"start":11860.746,"end":11888.015,"text":"因為如果照這樣講GPS都不用不用用了因為不是沒有別的偵查模式啊你叫人家跟監也可以啊可是我可能20個人才能跟一個因為我必須分三班制我可能要編20個人去跟一個被告那其實這是很傻的更何況我們面對的被告就像剛剛黃總召說的他用的東西是日新月異他用的東西就是我剛在詢答的時候講的他用的都是低流的東西而且他毫無法規的束縛"},{"start":11889.4,"end":11896.302,"text":"那我們今天綁手綁腳的情況下你要去對付這樣的犯罪集團我跟你講我的經驗是不可能的"},{"start":11896.886,"end":11898.727,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":11924.838,"end":11928.961,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案．一）行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":11949.634,"end":11971.283,"text":"因為我們還是要保障人民所以我們對於數據的取得我希望還是應該類似像德國一樣成立一個甚至外部的中立機關來監督你所獲得的這些那個這些數據資料你怎麼運用你有沒有好好保管有沒有定期銷毀這才是我們應該重視的點好謝謝各位好謝謝吳沙偉謝謝申委員主席各位同仁我想這個"},{"start":11979.681,"end":11998.194,"text":"確實有關於究竟相關的科技偵查的這些限制究竟是應該訂定專法還是在刑事訴訟法裡面看起來大部分的法律學者都認為說應該要訂在刑事訴訟法的專章裡面"},{"start":12001.158,"end":12022.455,"text":"但是今天行政院之所以會用提出專法的這樣的方式來提來這個進行這個科技偵查的這個保障法我想這個這個他這個困難跟這個考量我們這個本委員會大家也都知道為什麼"},{"start":12024.88,"end":12026.881,"text":"我只是在這邊稍微提提提醒一下就是說"},{"start":12044.688,"end":12052.74,"text":"確實行事訴訟法的在定定在行事訴訟裡面他確實知道他的他的道理跟正當性但是因為這個"},{"start":12055.629,"end":12082.421,"text":"你由這個法務部來提出專法他其實他在雖然條文都一樣內容他的限制保障都都相同但是他在精神上面就變得不太一樣法務部所提出來他重視的就是發現真實這是在偵查犯罪的過程中為了發現真實他的必要採取的手段他的他的變得立法的精神在這裡但你如果在刑事訴訟法裡面他就不是發現真實的你他就是程序正義的問題"},{"start":12083.681,"end":12086.083,"text":"刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法刑事訴訟法"},{"start":12104.659,"end":12105.539,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":12128.59,"end":12146.009,"text":"是比較容許的。但是行事訴訟法如果過於頻繁的修正對行事訴訟法來講他本身更需要更大的安定性所以我個人是倒是比較傾向於說在在行事訴訟法裡面就科技偵查的一些原則"},{"start":12148.069,"end":12172.314,"text":"注定在刑事訴訟法裏面但是因為你這個犯罪太陽的這個科技手法是日新月異而且他的速度可能未來速度很像比我們想像的快你因應的這個相關的這個偵查科技偵查的手法跟他所需要像我們現在這一次的這個專法他其實真的定有規範的大概就GPSM花車跟這個熱線相儀大概就這三項但你可能"},{"start":12173.305,"end":12202.605,"text":"我們立法完成公告之後可能有新的我們想像不到的的犯罪方式科技犯罪方式他必須有一新的因應因應方式那未來如果說我們全我個人是是對於釘釘在形式輸送法我我我是也是贊成啊但是我是有一點這個疑慮就是未來他會不會你因應的各種新新的的科技之後你的形式輸送法的安定性怎麼會被破壞必須不斷的去修正這個形式輸送法的有關的這個這個科技偵偵查的部分"},{"start":12203.545,"end":12204.326,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案 。"},{"start":12229.783,"end":12246.352,"text":"這個議事資料裡面只給我們科技偵查法的資料並沒有給我們形式形式做法的對照條文那所以在這討論裡面大家會其實可能討論有些在發言都已經他自己黨團的的條文就跟他的發言是是想是相反的"},{"start":12247.014,"end":12273.304,"text":"所以我是建議說這個雖然說在體力上面很少這樣做但是我是建議說我們意識人員是不是肩拔行事作用法的對照對照條文能夠一起提供給大家作為參考就作為參考資料就是大家可以比對你在24小時裡面偵查你所採取的這些要件各黨雖然他現在體力在不一樣的法裡面但是他我們在討論才不會說我們先討論今天討論的東西到時候下禮拜吳宗憲稍微再排行事作用法之後我們又重新"},{"start":12274.52,"end":12282.586,"text":"重新再看一次然後又要把今天大家討論的結論又拿來再對照我覺得這個這部分請主席參佐是不是能夠這樣做以上"},{"start":12284.824,"end":12310.655,"text":"好謝謝齁謝謝非常感謝沈委員其實剛剛幾位委員召委總召的發言我覺得都深具意義啊從不同的面向切入來探討兩個立法體系不同的版本的法案那如何未來因應目前社會的需要那麼我這邊齁先真的大家同意啦因為過去沒有這樣的體力就是說我們下週因為吳釗偉已經口頭表達他要排審刑事訴訟法那刑事訴訟法有三個版本"},{"start":12311.175,"end":12336.823,"text":"那委員會這邊的議事人員也已經準備好三個版本的對照表但是呢今天因為他不是我們的審查資料那我想是以附件的方式提供給委員待會在審我們科技偵查法專法的時候可以看到下週要排審的三個版本的形式輸送法的條文對照那當然就可以知道說哦原來目前我們審這個條文下週可能在刑訴他是什麼樣的位置那內容上規範是不是類同"},{"start":12338.163,"end":12338.984,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案 案 。"},{"start":12364.824,"end":12389.275,"text":"那在這裡呢我也處理一個會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行到議程討論事項處理完畢為止好OK好那我們就請那個資料就印給大家那請問大體討論部分還有沒有要發言的沒有的話呢那我們現在就進行主條來那我們開始進行主條審查哈"},{"start":12391.111,"end":12405.504,"text":"檢查到處理完畢為止,討論事項處理完畢為止。」好。那我們第一條就是專法的名稱請問各位對法名稱部分目前有行政院提案在場大家對專法名稱有"},{"start":12407.585,"end":12409.445,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":12435.253,"end":12462.85,"text":"那如果沒有的話我們是不是就叫行政院提案通過?OK接下來第二條的部分第二條部分因為就進入到會跟刑訴的部分有關了那我們稍微先休息先我把停下來讓那個資料送到各位的桌上後我們再進行第二條以後的討論讓大家可以參照到下週要排審的刑事訴訟三個版本的內容來王總召"},{"start":12465.373,"end":12492.201,"text":"因為我覺得就刑訴的部分有三個黨的立委不管是黨團還是委員各自提的版本那章偉剛剛也說明得很清楚了吧我們下個禮拜併案來處理那在立法選擇的政策上面反正今天處理有關於課徵法的部分下禮拜處理刑事訴訟法的部分"},{"start":12492.921,"end":12516.315,"text":"那到底在立法體力上面要選擇哪一個最後要到院會決定以前大家看有機會再來做溝通所以我覺得先把這個條文順過去這件事情本身我並不反對我並不反對那只不過說有一些委員他們所提出來的疑慮我認為是有道理的"},{"start":12516.775,"end":12531.927,"text":"我認為是有道理的因為最近科證法處理的事情剛好跟一些可能通訊監察的資訊或者是個資的事情社會大眾會疑慮的事情剛好結合在一起的時候"},{"start":12532.628,"end":12548.967,"text":"那也會引發非常多人的關切那我倒是認為說就刑訴的部分我們下禮拜那既然召委排案都做了這樣子的決定那我們基本上都尊重因為我想不管是國民黨的召委還是民進黨的召委"},{"start":12550.485,"end":12566.235,"text":"兩邊都釋出善意嘛最後立法的形式上面大家可以再討論到院會的時候再做一個定奪所以我覺得先把條文順過去但是在順這個條文的過程當中我覺得有一些事情藉由逐條的審查讓"},{"start":12569.317,"end":12585.732,"text":"法務部跟司法院把話說清楚我覺得是重要的事情比如說就第二條的部分我基本上對於他們所設計的條文我沒有什麼太強烈的意見但我有一個具體的問題想要請教一下司法院就是說"},{"start":12592.656,"end":12615.147,"text":"針對GPS的部分針對GPS的部分就是在24小時之內如果我們都要求法官保留的話司法院贊不贊成因為啦24小時之內都要求法官保留的話我相信有法官做把關啦大家應該就會相對而言會比較放心"},{"start":12616.047,"end":12645.139,"text":"但我現在比較關心的是第一個司法院能不能夠handle第二個如果在GPS追蹤的時候司法院目前法官執行的狀態有沒有辦法24小時待命因為他們在出去追人的時候不是犯人啦壞人不是早酒晚霧通常是晚上甚至是半夜你好不容易"},{"start":12646.348,"end":12649.05,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":12663.086,"end":12687.075,"text":"那在這個時候如果在24小時之內都要求法官保留的話我的問題很具體只要檢察官認為說這樣子他們可以處理那司法院那邊也認為可以處理把他拉到法官保留的這件事情我相信沒有人會反對但重點是可以處理嗎這個是我的問題"},{"start":12688.736,"end":12710.032,"text":"好謝謝黃總召跟委員會說明目前我們在處理的是第二條的主條討論那現在已經將下週的三個刑訴法的版本的對照也發給大家請大家可以參考但是我們今天只處理科證法專法的條文那現在是請第二條那剛剛黃總召意見是不是分別請次長跟廳長來做回應請"},{"start":12714.333,"end":12715.433,"text":"洗錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":12743.891,"end":12766.682,"text":"我我覺得在人力的配置上司法院我覺得目前可能怕很難應付的到沒有啦我希望你們話再講得更明白一點因為我有請教有參與整個法案的研擬跟討論的刑訴的老師因為那都是在學界的老朋友"},{"start":12767.893,"end":12788.403,"text":"他們講的很直白啊所以24小時之內不用法官就是司法院要的啊司法院要的司法院又不敢講不是啊你要把現實上面的狀況講出來讓所有參與討論的立委跟在關心這部法案的社會大眾來自於我們非常多基層的檢調"},{"start":12790.12,"end":12792.481,"text":"洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":12812.108,"end":12837.308,"text":"go through法條的過程當中你們各個主管機關不管是站在法院的立場或是站在檢查章的立場能夠講得更清楚一點。第二個除了現實上面的需要以外第二個你非常重要的一個reference就是外國的立法力因為你針對不同強制處分的類型跟侵害的程度去進行層級化的層級化的"},{"start":12839.81,"end":12862.184,"text":"保留跟層級化的設計這應該已經是學界的通縮了無用質疑只不過我們在說明我們自己的法條設計的時候你們可以更清楚的跟大家說明譬如說可能在國內討論會比較多的在德國的刑事訴訟法或者是在美國他們在強制處分的時候"},{"start":12863.226,"end":12883.247,"text":"在用的時候他們的reference就是說其他國家他們一定在任何的社會當中都有兼顧人權保障跟犯罪偵查兩者平衡點的拿捏所以我們才會出現所謂層級化保留或層級化不同設計這樣子一個重要的概念出來那在"},{"start":12884.709,"end":12899.084,"text":"過就在review過這個條文的時候你們要很清楚的讓委員們跟社會大眾都可以瞭解現在的狀況外國的立法力這樣子我們才不會才不會第一個引發誤會"},{"start":12900.586,"end":12903.168,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12927.003,"end":12950.686,"text":"的次長因為我相信兩位都是常任的文官那在法律的專業上面跟在這個法條實際的討論上面都有相當程度跟長時間的參與能夠在法條討論的過程當中把實際的狀況到底是什麼更清楚的跟所有的委員還有社會大眾做說明"},{"start":12952.14,"end":12977.897,"text":"好謝謝黃總召吼那今天跟委員會說明一下那待會再請廳長答覆吼那個我們看到第二條吼那因為我們今天的版本是專法是科偵法那另外三個的刑訴的內容大家可以看得到跟目前的專法呢是有相同的地方但是呢其他的三個刑訴的版本有額外的地方那因為我們今天不是在討論刑訴我們就請看專法的部分吼"},{"start":12978.797,"end":12989.048,"text":"那至於呢司法院今天可能對司法院來講今天這樣的一個雙軌審查是對你們來講是模擬考啦下周審刑訴的時候就是你們的大考"},{"start":12989.622,"end":13017.395,"text":"那建議今天委員提出來意見比如說剛剛黃總召在關切人力是否充足能夠應付法官保留的這個需要那我希望司法院在下週進行刑事審查的時候待會我們吳阿偉先宣告你們先提醒啦你們可以先做好準備如果真的有人力不足你們要提出來那請問委員對於第二條科偵法第二條的條文內容目前有行政院提案內容在場那麼大家有什麼意見來請羅委員"},{"start":13020.731,"end":13045.379,"text":"首先還是強調一下就是打詐是全民大家都期待的我也認同一定要給這個我們司法單位足夠的武器但是武器當中跟隨的人權保障跟這個相關的一些隱私保護諸如此類的這個法議的橫評這個我覺得是一樣是要提醒這個我們的就是主管機關"},{"start":13046.579,"end":13074.133,"text":"那當然我也看了一下不管是院版或是幾個黨團的版本當中的一些意見很多地方有相同之處那我看到立法院法制局延期意見也歸納一些學界的意見那我是覺得說可以把它保留跟我們的這個將來這個刑事訴訟法這邊也將來就是要一起來做政黨的協商但是我們再來做細緻化處理不過有幾個提醒就是說比如說以這個第二個第二條來看的話"},{"start":13075.754,"end":13099.414,"text":"他在所謂的未遇連續二十四小時會累計未遇二日實施當日不足二十四小時日期就沒有到所謂的那個連續二十四小時會累計未遇二日的情況之下他其實就是幾乎是接近空白授權給不只是檢察官檢察事務官司法警察官司法警察又檢察官"},{"start":13100.174,"end":13101.395,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13117.643,"end":13135.968,"text":"但是是不是直接用這種方式就是空白授權給這所有的人都可以來發動這個所謂的一個科技工具這點我覺得還要再審視那我認為實際有幾種幾個做法上的東西當然法官保留的部分我想剛剛司法委員講過有人力負荷的問題"},{"start":13137.13,"end":13138.651,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":13162.37,"end":13190.728,"text":"這個我們的通訊監察保護法號來及德國刑事輸送法裡面就是說其他調查犯罪事實或探查被告所在地的成效不大或有困難那或者是按照我們的通訊保障及監察法第五條裡面的一個保留的方式是曾以其他方法調查人無效果或以其他方法調查合理顯示不能為達成目的會有重大危險情形換言之對必要性的部分加一些所謂的一些"},{"start":13192.209,"end":13194.93,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13217.301,"end":13232,"text":"對人民做政治偵訪王一川的狀況在大家剛好這個時間點上有一些疑慮的時候那結合到科技偵查保障法的這個部分的話那我不認為這個所謂的疑慮是完全沒有原因的"},{"start":13232.557,"end":13248.724,"text":"那這種情況之下那加上我們現在前面也講說關於立法體力的問題嘛所以我個人對這個部分我有一些保留那希望能夠有更細緻化的一個討論以上好謝謝那個是不是我們先請廳長然後次長回應然後再請吳委員"},{"start":13251.235,"end":13270.088,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛黃總召有提到說這24小時以內的要不要採法官保留那這部分我剛剛請木娘幫幫了解了一下那24小時之內沒有採法官保留並不是司法院去要求的我們並沒有直接要不過"},{"start":13270.788,"end":13284.907,"text":"我還是要強調司法院目前的人力的確是持緊的如果在24小時之內的全部都進到法官保留來這邊這個的確我們的人力可能會有點難以應付那第二點就是有關於剛剛"},{"start":13288.313,"end":13291.755,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":13317.293,"end":13318.914,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":13341.262,"end":13362.239,"text":"檢警那個警方在跟歹徒對峙的時候你用空中偵查他的被告還是被害人或是被告的所在空中的臨時性的偵查這個時候並不需要特別的法律授權因為他的干預性是非常低輕度的干預但是如果你要追蹤特定的人也長達一定的時間的時候那可能比較需要法律的授權以上"},{"start":13363.223,"end":13378.602,"text":"好,接下來請次長有沒有必要回應?有齁,來。跟著報告羅委員的意見的回應,那的確如羅委員所講的就是說這個科證法要做怎麼樣的一個事後的控制機制,它其實是有一個成績化的一個概念,那"},{"start":13379.944,"end":13404.945,"text":"如果採法官保留或檢察官保留他的問題點可是剛剛討論一模一樣無論法官保留或檢察官保留他的現實面可不可能做到檢察官人力現在也一樣更吃緊也要檢察官去對司法警察20小時內的GPS全面性的核票檢察官照樣的人力上會產生崩解第二個是現實上有可能沒有辦法臨時取得到票的馬上發現車手正在正在"},{"start":13405.606,"end":13407.606,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":13431.132,"end":13431.813,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 。"},{"start":13446.069,"end":13448.711,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13473.786,"end":13500.745,"text":"行政機關司法檢查機關他本來在內控上就應該要有一個行政規則上去做內控啊這本來一個行政機關依法行政本來就該做這法不是只有法律立法院通過法他要遵守行政規則他通過了他照樣要遵守透過一個這種層級化保障方法去規制我相信才能夠達到這個發現真實又能夠人權保障的一個balance以上補充謝謝那因為吳委員先問他來請"},{"start":13501.325,"end":13528.561,"text":"好我想就條文啦因為已經進入主條了因為剛大體大家已經交換過意見了那謝謝這個主席請提供就有關於科偵法專法方式跟其他三位委員各黨都有好的刑事訴訟法的條文來對應我就直接看這一條的條文那第二條是對應於刑事訴訟法153有的是放在之三有的放在之二那以內容來講好我們來看相次"},{"start":13530.962,"end":13558.447,"text":"第一項誰可以發動偵查中的檢察官認為有必要或者是檢察事務官司法檢察官或司法警察應調查犯罪情形及收集證據有必要一同嗎對不對所以這這個前提誰可以發動其實幾個版本是一致的第二個呢在這個用什麼樣子的科技方法一樣都寫到同樣的方法文字都落在全球衛星定位系統"},{"start":13560.331,"end":13586.8,"text":"其他或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置。」方法也是一樣的嘛對不對新興的工具的條文也是一樣的好再來講到剛剛講的這個稱其化的保護就實施期間來看好我們進入第二項那實施期間我現在只是講院版加上另外三個刑事訴訟法的版本都一樣是落在24小時或累計逾兩日"},{"start":13588.956,"end":13611.363,"text":"然後連續當日不以二十四小時不足二十四小時者以一日為計。」這個也一樣嘛 對不對好再來下一個在下一個level有再次或繼續實施之必要者致詞要在下次實施的屆滿前一樣尋這個程序這個四個版本都一樣嘛 對不對好我們看到第三項"},{"start":13612.363,"end":13613.324,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 規定規定規定規定規定規定"},{"start":13627.279,"end":13651.691,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案的規範,最後一項到底法院許可的期間是多長?四個條文四個版本寫的一樣都是30天所以回過頭來講就舊條文來講這個條文大家對於發動者工具你層級化的保護時間然後的界定然後要延長"},{"start":13653.272,"end":13678.542,"text":"可預期性以及最後的這個每次的時間最長是什麼三十天條文都一樣所以我認為這一條應當是各黨的提案委員也好或是政院版也好都是有高度的共識那如果這樣的話我基本上覺得這一個條是這樣double check check check check四個條文都一致那我認為可以交行政院版通過啊"},{"start":13679.673,"end":13685.366,"text":"就條文論條文因為沒有明確不一致的部分嗎好謝謝那個羅委員應該要發言嗎來"},{"start":13687.823,"end":13708.74,"text":"我說過齁基本上他這個剛剛講的四個層次的一個做法嘛我說我沒有主張哪一個做法或是把大家的疑慮整理出來但是如果說今天法務部真的是講一句說最後就用最後一個方式或是剛剛那個三板都一樣啦齁用內控的方式的話那至少要做到剛剛莊育雄委員有提到疑慮嘛"},{"start":13709.821,"end":13711.602,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13736.917,"end":13737.617,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":13758.393,"end":13783.905,"text":"那這種情況之下的話那你當然又是一個新的方式新的形式那會引起的人民的那個疑慮也不是我個人的疑慮啊抱歉我有看到學界有疑慮啊我看到立法院法治局在歸納大家意見也有疑慮嘛所以這樣的疑慮怎麼樣去展現出來那怎麼樣去回應這樣的疑慮那這個我覺得是政府機關要做的事情以上好謝謝我這邊做一個建議各位人參考齁"},{"start":13784.665,"end":13805.756,"text":"那因為剛剛吳委員已經做一個四個版本的分析比較那羅委員之前的莊委員都有提到那麼因為我們這次很湊巧的兩個雙軌先後依次進行審查那我是覺得委員們可以回去就這個條次的部分哪些應該注意的事情可以用附帶決議的方式表達"},{"start":13806.536,"end":13807.897,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。」"},{"start":13829.246,"end":13850.172,"text":"可以嗎?同意同意那這樣的話我們第二條的部分照行政院提案通過好謝謝那現在我們看第三條的部分那第三條部分講的就是M化車啦那請問郭委員對於第三條的部分有沒有什麼意見要表示來那陳委員請"},{"start":13857.062,"end":13881.993,"text":"好謝謝主席那我還是延續上午的這個尋討的部分我再次提醒我們相關部會未來在進行這個科技偵查的時候若無可避免取得這個無關第三人的個資的時候在執行上應該要特別注意的部分就是保存跟銷毀剛剛也有委員再次提醒那"},{"start":13882.933,"end":13898.183,"text":"要有妥善的這個機制降低資安風險的避免那資安外洩的情況我們應該要這個有所把關避免這個情勢再發生那由於這個科技偵查所獲得的這個數據量"},{"start":13899.721,"end":13900.741,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13921.257,"end":13940.871,"text":"好謝謝主席那一樣我就是快速的去review跟比較四個版本就第三條好的一個內容那基本上院版是用四項來為之我目前看起來就這個條文院版反而是跟嘉賓委員版是相對嚴謹的啦程序上規範的比較明確"},{"start":13941.932,"end":13950.097,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案案,包括發動者、檢察官許可、時間不得逾三十日、陳俊宇委員提到的第四條文修正草案案,如果無可避免去取得第三人個人資料的話,有一定的使用限制,然後也有刪除條文的要求。"},{"start":13971.852,"end":13974.315,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13987.534,"end":13991.778,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":14008.973,"end":14037.83,"text":"我看這個就是大概我們中招委的版本有點不一樣啦齁中招委的版本有區分這個這個被告跟第三人有區分啦齁那我想是不是我們這個對因為我們還是還是對於是不是要區分被告跟第三人齁剛剛在大力討論的時候有做過討論所以我們是不是按照院版來通過好那如果委員會同意的話我們第三條按照行政院提案內容條文通過"},{"start":14038.953,"end":14051.914,"text":"好接下來第四條第四條講的是熱選項熱選項的部分這個好像也差不多來主席來有沒有第四條一樣就對照了版本"},{"start":14052.637,"end":14073.328,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 案 則明確對於最重本刑三年以上之有企圖刑之罪進行偵查然後來使用熱影像的方式所以關鍵的主體還有使用許可的期間程序跟幾個委員版本一致"},{"start":14074.008,"end":14075.869,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":14094.793,"end":14103.784,"text":"有適時逐﹑這個五中院委員版本有適時逐任的部分這個他多了這個前提這個跟一般"},{"start":14105.181,"end":14129.234,"text":"認為說有相當理由跟有事實主任有事實主任他嚴格的非常多啦他會造成他在在真的使用熱像儀的前提會變得更加嚴格非常多你可能像像類似這種柬埔寨案的這種這種虛情致敬私刑拘禁私刑拘禁可能就就你就沒有辦法用事實認定來來發動這個熱像儀了"},{"start":14132.679,"end":14144.268,"text":"所以我這裡我個人是比較傾向政院行政院的版本好有沒有要回應還是我們這一個條文我後面有一條好不好先回"},{"start":14145.742,"end":14148.483,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":14171.499,"end":14198.371,"text":"第二條他是關於軍事上陰秘密的部分他規定的就兩項而已啦那其實在另外三版本的行訴裡面都沒有規範沒有主席我反而覺得這個有什麼樣的不合理吧就是說我反而覺得說因為主席的思維是說另外的版本沒有那這裡要不要先hold住但是我反而認為如果我們先回到這個科證法裡頭我們如果認為這個條文是必要的"},{"start":14199.537,"end":14217.538,"text":"然後後續再處理情愫的時候反而是在是不是要加嘛而不是現在就就決定這個吧。因為現在的我們走的審查的雙軌進行的方式這樣這個今天討論的專法版本只要一個條文保留我們就是到委員會會進入到政黨協商"},{"start":14218.579,"end":14230.564,"text":"那下週五委員排的也是這樣這個條文保留也是送委員協商那未來兩個委員協商完成後會送請院長進行朝野協商那屆時呢這兩個委員會協商之後的"},{"start":14234.738,"end":14237.139,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":14251.283,"end":14271.646,"text":"折衷啦。」我也來請來請各位報告這個條文倒不是其他版本沒有規定他是用不同方式呈現像那個胡宗憲委員版本他是用127條之規定準用之127條規定其實就是本條的第五條他是用這種方式都有寫包括趙偉寧的版本也有"},{"start":14272.682,"end":14301.761,"text":"你把你最後一項對最後一項準用127事實上127就是就是本條規定就是本條規定事實上都謝謝謝謝次長提醒吼那呃我在這邊再跟各位委員會說明一下因為看起來因為後面還有678幾個條文吼其實如果仔細看我們待會仔細看吼不然我們這一條先先暫暫停那我們往後面第六往上看搞不好我們整個看完了會認為其他的條文呢三個版本跟這個都"},{"start":14303.282,"end":14322.592,"text":"大同小異．那可能就這個留一個條文做保留我們可以以後做兩軌的一個整合的一個基礎可以嗎那我們先暫保留那我們繼續看那個第六條就是印記載事項對是記載事項印記載事項實施期間"},{"start":14333.28,"end":14348.744,"text":"好像差別的部分應保留事項我大概有差別的是我們中招委的版本有一個他增加了一個實施必要性及理由然後那這個"},{"start":14352.653,"end":14377.141,"text":"這個吳宗謙召委的的版本吼他有這個每次不逾30日他是對室內他對室內調查僅限10日啊他有有有有增加了這個對室內調查的一個一個限制應該是這樣子好那麼請問委員還有沒有其他意見那如果沒其他意見我們第六條照行政院提案文字通過接下來請看第七條"},{"start":14381.857,"end":14401.959,"text":"就是補發的程序。應該進行補發的。第七條是調查後的通知事項。補發許可。不對,這個第七條是那個緊急急迫的狀況的調查程序。要補發許可。後面才是通知。"},{"start":14407.028,"end":14427.466,"text":"如果第七條跟其他三個版本的文字大體相同,是不是我們先依行政院提案在專法部門先予通過?好,可以。好,第八條呢,就是屬於事後的通知程序。對。看起來。第八條有幾個差別,就是這個大概"},{"start":14435.814,"end":14462.541,"text":"五中憲委員版本他有有一個就是說他未經法院合票的案件他也要通知這個是他們整整夾第二個就是第三人連帶干預重大第三人的連帶干預重大的要通知這也是五中憲委員版本另外一個很重要就是資料銷毀檢察官要派派員在場這個是五中憲委員才有的才才才有的規定民眾黨的版本"},{"start":14463.783,"end":14485.361,"text":"是由檢察官呈報法院通知的。」有些差別,那我們也可以在後續的刑訴三百門的討論中繼續審查。那因為今天是專法的部分,那請問大家對於第八條專法依行政院提案通過?可以。同意好,謝謝。同意。好,請看第九條。"},{"start":14491.035,"end":14518.164,"text":"第九條是執行刑事裁判後則准用本法的相關的規定這沒問題啊我看第九條其實這沒問題沒問題啦好那麼如果委員同意我們第九條一行政院提案條文文字通過好那麼第十條第十條是有關救濟的部分嗯"},{"start":14525.612,"end":14536.24,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案 提起抗抗沒有問題好那麼第四條專案法的部分行政院提案就依行政院提案文字通過好第十一條就是施行日期"},{"start":14543.837,"end":14561.403,"text":"現在我們回過來看第五條我在這裡跟縣委員說明那麼如果第五條不管有沒有保留我們在全案就算每個條文都通過我們還是可以保留送委員會協商就看縣委員覺得第五條要不要保留等一下我問一下第五條是對於"},{"start":14570.249,"end":14597.849,"text":"軍事上隱秘密的處所。」我們先看實質好不好?你如果要保留,要保留這條嗎?因為如果不保留也是做那個合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…合…"},{"start":14602.079,"end":14613.407,"text":"因為主席如果已經我們等一下我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":14625.991,"end":14642.692,"text":"對!對!對!就是第五條好一句!我意思就是這樣!好!謝謝!好!那麼我們第五條呢,照行政院提案文字通過!好!好!那麼,各位委員報告本案逐條均已處理完畢,作以下宣告。"},{"start":14643.717,"end":14668.525,"text":"那本案審查完略擬具審查報告提請院會公決那麼本案呢需交由黨團協商那院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語用字用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":14670.469,"end":14676.915,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案 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除己副處處長羅馬可行政管理處處長張關宇人事處處長吳彥均政風處處長王文信會計處處長蔡進滿統計資訊處處長張志強"},{"start":2100.424,"end":2108.909,"text":"法規會執行秘書陳敬儒臺北榮總院長陳維銘臺中榮總院長陳世安高雄榮總院長陳金順屏東榮總院長吳東林榮民榮眷基金會秘書長李世國"},{"start":2127.705,"end":2142.93,"text":"好我們今天的會議請邀請新任退輔會主委嚴德發進行業務概況的報告並備質詢首先我們請嚴主委上台報告我普通介紹我們無人委員黃人委員黃人委員"},{"start":2152.096,"end":2168.074,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好今天奉邀列席報告本會業務概況非常感到榮幸承蒙大院委員先進對本會諸多指導與支持謹誌崇高的敬意與謝誠本會是國家基於從功報勳"},{"start":2169.816,"end":2184.347,"text":"為退出役官兵提供救學救業救醫救養服務照顧及退出給付發放等工作的專責機關未來將在既有的基礎上以行動與創新精神接近所能全面照顧農民榮眷"},{"start":2185.448,"end":2206.539,"text":"實施傾聽榮民聲音做到榮民在哪裡服務就到哪裡以感動服務贏得榮民榮券及退出役官兵的肯定以下就工作現況與未來工作規劃重點向各位委員再報如後工作執行現況一、優化健康照護服務友善高齡醫養環境"},{"start":2208.615,"end":2229.533,"text":"以建構榮總分院及榮家一條邊之三級照護服務網絡由榮總支援分院分院支援榮家如醫師人力等各級榮院督導榮家防疫作為辦理榮家失智防治預防及延緩衰弱失能及安寧療護與長照相關教育訓練課程"},{"start":2231.775,"end":2256.916,"text":"培訓榮家人員安寧專業技能各級榮院設置榮民服務櫃台各榮總提供75歲以上榮民就醫綠色通道醫療服務舉凡掛號看病取藥及專人引導等均優先協助處理提高榮民榮院看診便利性各級榮院發展先端精準健康照護提升治療效能"},{"start":2257.659,"end":2273.132,"text":"另外推動榮總榮家急診遠距醫療品質提升計劃由各榮總提供榮家住民遠距會診與醫療執行服務減少外送就醫落實醫療合一全方位服務照顧"},{"start":2274.894,"end":2284.821,"text":"2、調整補助範圍標準,減輕農民生活負擔,經行政院在今年4月函附,同意調整就養給戶4%,發放每日每月就養給戶調整為15471億元。"},{"start":2290.484,"end":2312.677,"text":"2、因教育部定額減免學渣費,由於農民農園基金會補助,故暫停受理,就讀私立大學農民子女申請。公立大學補助,則由8000元,調整為1萬元。國外求學,頒發碩博士4名,調整為8名,每人50萬元。3、提高就業謀職媒合,多元"},{"start":2314.022,"end":2327.208,"text":"多元生涯規劃一、辦理專案徵才、擴大就業媒合成效至111年起規劃辦理專業技能官兵專案徵才平均媒合率高達79.6如下表請參閱"},{"start":2330.89,"end":2342.177,"text":"結合國防部．勞動部．原住民委員會．辦理就業媒合．近3年即辦理476場次．27907人次參加．加穩定就業軍隊適用對象．介於退除役官兵．較缺乏民間職場技能．無法適應民間職場生涯．"},{"start":2353.328,"end":2362.519,"text":"透過穩定就業方案發起12個月的軍帖迄今到4月子長期穩定就業收賄人數及31352人"},{"start":2366.314,"end":2382.982,"text":"此案,去年5月總統公布施行,為符合多元就業形態社會需求增加自營就業者、從事農業者以及專門職業及技術人員的三類適用對象,亦可領取本軍帖,預計每年約160人受益,致精進職業訓練品質,提升訓後就業成效。"},{"start":2389.565,"end":2391.327,"text":"職訓中心．積極推動職人導向課程的認定．為於108、110及112年．獲得勞動部頒發訓練機構金牌獎"},{"start":2401.126,"end":2425.383,"text":"參考國家產業發展政策及企業用人趨勢與退出役官兵就業需求開辦課程以機械修復、機密機械、資訊服務等七類為核心課程規劃開設執訓班隊學員結訓後追蹤6個月前兩年就業率87.5如下表請參閱保障事業機構安全降低危安風險機率"},{"start":2426.604,"end":2443.074,"text":"投資事業將各類維安要求列為重要的考核事項導入科技監控諮詢系統降低維安風險做好人安物安事安強化安全在穩定環境中求進步農場核心服務區設有各類監測儀器"},{"start":2445.956,"end":2460.542,"text":"天然災害發生時採取安置、勸阻等方式將災害風險降至最低以維護遊客安全未來工作重點規劃本會為更能落實照顧服務對象、農民、農眷及退出役官兵未來將以農福處"},{"start":2462.423,"end":2488.493,"text":"為照顧服務中心整合地區農家、農院所有醫療體系老人長照機構安養養護區域資源積極建置以高齡長輩為中心的長照3.0優質醫養環境達到全方位醫養合一的目的另一產訓合一、產學合一的方針擴大結合民間專長技術與產業類別加速國軍退出役官兵就業謀職銜接媒合"},{"start":2491.018,"end":2507.25,"text":"精進各項榮民榮譽．退除役官兵照顧服務品質．能成為其最堅強的後盾．現就未來工作規劃重點．分數如何．一整合地方社福資源．照服地區弱勢榮民．運用資源建置完整照護網"},{"start":2508.351,"end":2529.891,"text":"本會會以融服處擔任地區資源整合的平台,整合地區容院、容家及公司社府資源,鏈接非營利組織及慈善團體愛心,募集民生物資及善款,充實容院、容家醫療及照護設施,容總及分院以充分資源照護榮民榮眷,加強高齡訪視,落實照顧榮民榮眷。"},{"start":2534.975,"end":2553.74,"text":"運用各容服處、責任區域的輔導員以及社區服務組長進行區域內服務對象的訪視將服務對象區分特需、教需及一般照顧等類別才定時與不定時防止關懷訪視若是散居或高齡榮民榮券的照顧"},{"start":2555.168,"end":2577.859,"text":"而全面盤點85歲以上獨居、雙老等具高度脆弱性榮民榮眷協助裝設主動式連聚居章照顧系統使榮民榮眷發生危險時能獲得即時通報與救援擴大醫療服務照顧建置智能照護體系落實一養合一政策推動長照3.0目標"},{"start":2580.34,"end":2589.086,"text":"徵社失智床位服務能量,除現有7所農家失智專區有593床外,將在陸續徵社552床其114年可達1145失智床位,佔全國總失智床位6成以上一覽表請參閱二,徵取農家委外護理,改約用人員禁用"},{"start":2603.7,"end":2627.746,"text":"介於護理人員短缺、委外招募不易、流動率高的因素將向行政院爭取改採約用方式禁用可由保健組長、護理長直接管理並可逐年增加薪資待遇以維護護理人員穩定性及維繫照顧專業配合長照3.0政策依地方需求持續佈建住宿式機構"},{"start":2629.164,"end":2653.18,"text":"日間照顧服務資源施設社區服務據點與巷弄長照站等擴增服務的量能至新建直指治療中心臺北榮總已完成180例癌症患者治療臺中榮總新建直指治療中心後續每年可逐步增加照護癌症患者達250-600人全面配置智能化服務擴展醫療服務據點"},{"start":2656.594,"end":2671.632,"text":"導入智能化照顧服務因應照顧需求全面導入智慧床墊及生理監測儀等智能照顧設備有效提升照顧效率整合榮民醫療及長照資訊優化智慧管理"},{"start":2673.52,"end":2701.47,"text":"為提升臨床研究品質與發展智慧醫療以由臺北、臺中及高雄農種建置重大疾病如癌症等醫療數據主題式資料庫一律精準醫療診斷及照顧等相關應用另為擴充農業體系其他醫療及醫院營運資料交換應用也規劃在114年到115年建置去識別化後"},{"start":2702.09,"end":2703.251,"text":"為整合各級容院醫療資訊及社區式長照服務居家照護資料"},{"start":2721.141,"end":2736.571,"text":"臺中榮總規劃建置居家醫療整合照護服務社區整體照護服務平台完善個案連續性照護與品質臺北榮總府通過國科會四年級高齡照護科技專案補助計劃"},{"start":2738.112,"end":2753.574,"text":"應用體系內三級照護架構收集慢性病與健康照護資訊傳輸到臺北榮總雲端伺服器共同照護平台以落實分級醫療並提供智慧化管理達到高效能的"},{"start":2754.355,"end":2757.056,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":2779.904,"end":2803.1,"text":"職能轉換的基準．加速重返職場．以國安部研議建置軍職職能基準．以及軍職專長轉嫌民間職業的對照系統．協助國軍退除役官兵．依個別專長、學士及專業．順利轉嫌民間就業．加速重返職場．擴大產學及產訓合作．增進就業選項"},{"start":2805.336,"end":2826.668,"text":"本會議與國內辦學基優大學院校、優質企業共同辦理產學合作,今年將擴大於6都辦理,預定訓額100人。另外,辦理產訓合作與大類光電等單位合作,辦理光電人才等產訓合作班,其訓後就業率達100%。"},{"start":2828.309,"end":2850.544,"text":"今年更擴大合作企業,預定薪額是260個,在研議學習生活津貼安心取得專業智能,針對參加產學合作與產訓合作之退除役官兵,發給相關學習生活津貼增加取得參加誘因。科證嚴厲相關實施計劃,爭取預算,預期每年輔導退除役官兵參加產學合作,"},{"start":2856.277,"end":2881.712,"text":"一百人．產訓合作兩百一十個人．滿足支押發展需求．四．積極爭取榮民福利．完善照顧服務權益．予爭取恢復上校階以上．擬碰人員子女教育補助．基於從功報勳之肯定．予大院4月29日臨時提案．退伍軍人學費補助．予政府補助公私立大學學費差距大幅減少．有關上校階以上．擬碰"},{"start":2882.392,"end":2907.378,"text":"人員資理教育補費之事．應積極研議並爭取以促進退伍炮災權益之決議．以5月6號含請行政院建議恢復。2、調高救養農民商帳補助．減輕家屬經濟壓力．由原補助4萬元調整到5萬元．協助家屬妥善處理．頑固農民身後商帳事宜。5、強化事業營運管理．增加安置基金收益。"},{"start":2908.058,"end":2931.471,"text":"增加農場經營的項目,提升土地應用效益,修正農場管理經營辦法,增列提供綜合性觀光服務,住宿、倉椅、零售等多元經營,並增列太陽能與生殖能等綠能科技經營項目,增加安置經營收益,精進轉投資事業績效目標,嚴格要求經營成效。"},{"start":2933.731,"end":2957.3,"text":"為擴展退出役官兵照顧服務、安置基金與民間合資、陸續投資各項事業獲利益助、就學、執訓、經費的需求,並提升農民安置率,逐期檢討投資事業營運的狀況,將公司盈利作為會見首長考核續任的重要項目,以為本會的權益,深化國際退學互動。"},{"start":2958.32,"end":2976.376,"text":"拓展退休的機制交流配合國家整體外交政策派員常駐華府協調德州軍人公墓設立我國海外訓練訓職將士紀念碑並以巨幅中華民國國旗參與華府美國國殤日的遊行今年新增出訪英國愛爾蘭捷克"},{"start":2978.407,"end":3007.159,"text":"欧洲国家未来将持续出席美国三大退协联会,并力强化情谊联系,深化退伍机制的交流、结语,本会核心价值是忠贞、团结、关怀、诚朴、开创,并以纯诚务实态度做事、执行、服务、照顾等六大核心工作。希望各位委员先进,不吝指教与督测,恳请支持相关辅导安置及照顾政策,以为施政之一贯性与延续性。报告完毕,恭请指导。"},{"start":3009.67,"end":3031.138,"text":"好謝謝主委那我們現在開始進行尋答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言登記截止那如果有任何臨時提案請在10點半以前提出我們在11點左右會試尋答請進行處理首先第一位進行尋答的委員是羅美玲委員"},{"start":3039.904,"end":3042.847,"text":"謝謝主席,有請嚴主委來,主委請主委好,主委我們榮民榮眷基金會在去年發表了臺灣第一本帶領孩子認識軍人的這個會本就是守護臺灣領土的海空英雄跟即刻救援的路上英雄"},{"start":3068.627,"end":3079.44,"text":"那當然這是屬於我們全民國防教育向下抓根一個很好的一個計畫那我們除了出版這個繪本之外呢基金會還將這個榮民帶進了這個各大校園化身這個說故事的大使那將他們的這個故事還有這個軍人的故事呢帶到孩子的這個"},{"start":3088.41,"end":3088.45,"text":"兵輔導委員"},{"start":3118.03,"end":3118.29,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3142.771,"end":3167.557,"text":"畢竟是屬於全民國防教育的一部分我們在這部分的推廣除了本席所提到的這幾個方式之外幾個管道之外那還有沒有經過像我們有沒有經過現在孩子很喜歡的像Podcast或者是這個Blog之類的我們來做類似的推廣我們的計畫到底是怎麼樣的一個計畫不是說不是只有單純的在校園裡面講故事吧是不是"},{"start":3169.044,"end":3195.593,"text":"請問主委謝謝委員委員對我們榮民農業基金會這項作為是指指肯定我們也非常謝謝委員我想全民國防是非常當尤其現在當前其實是非常重要的工作要推廣全民認識國防所以我們這項榮民農業基金會的著眼就是從小學從最年輕的年輕開始發起"},{"start":3197.173,"end":3223.437,"text":"那從112年開始是由創意行銷公司跟文化事業公司來發行的第一套的這個兒童的國防繪本那些推動狀況呃呈如剛剛呃委員所看到在113年的時候呃我們是選定了全全國全省考30個軍事基地的地方的學校來推廣這個呃這個這個這個全民國防教育的兒童的國防繪本"},{"start":3224.958,"end":3239.632,"text":"目前我們所了解的回應狀況也非常好目前已經執行了大概有7個學校我們還會持續在推動我們依據現在目前推動成效的狀況未來我也跟榮民榮建基金會研究將來把它擴大來辦理"},{"start":3241.574,"end":3241.974,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":3261.136,"end":3273.291,"text":"內容我們都會在其他相關的一些資訊網絡上面再來做一些推廣我想我請人民中介基金會的代理的董事長跟您再做詳細的一個報告是"},{"start":3274.724,"end":3291.79,"text":"委員好,我是榮民榮眷基金會秘書長,非常感謝委員的肯定。那麼我們當初製作這項繪本是基於我們覺得有感於全民國防的重要,所以我們在112年,我們就委請了創意公司及文化公司來共同來製作。那我們規劃從今年開始,"},{"start":3294.588,"end":3313.341,"text":"就選擇具有軍事背景及軍事院區跟學校附近的國小30所來進行先行來做試行目前我們已經執行了有餘生國小7所學校試生參加有335人反應非常好也獲得了好評"},{"start":3315.616,"end":3341.307,"text":"我們是準備在今年把所有案子執行結束之後我們會綜合檢討實際的效益評估後續的系列化的發行持續發展新的教案教具甚至推轉到國中跟高中這方面來去深化去延續剛剛委員有指導有關於運用媒體的推播部分這個部分我們會跟行銷公司做持續的洽談去做開發"},{"start":3343.148,"end":3373.148,"text":"藝術長"},{"start":3374.308,"end":3389.614,"text":"這個會嗎?也是屬於全民國防教育之內的規劃嗎?那除了這個部分之外,其實像過去的話我有看到像公視曾經推出了這一個是時代的影集叫做一把青"},{"start":3390.094,"end":3390.374,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":3406.843,"end":3433.764,"text":"我們也希望就是說除了保存這個過去的這個歷史之外其實我們也希望說建立新一代榮民的這個優質這個形象所以我們也希望說我們榮民榮賢基金會其實可以跟文化部來做一個合作然後對新一代的這個榮民的這個形象呢可以來做推廣然後讓國人也更加了解對這個軍人給予支持這是給我們榮民榮賢基金會的一個建議"},{"start":3434.565,"end":3434.745,"text":"退伍會三大金雞母"},{"start":3446.386,"end":3452.152,"text":"這一個清淨農場福壽山還有這個武林農場可是我們發現就是說像這個這個福壽山跟這個清淨農場其實近年來業績都是在穩定當中成長可是呢就是武林農場最近呢就是有業績有下滑的這個趨勢"},{"start":3466.167,"end":3492.142,"text":"那其實本席有看到就是說我們這個武力農場的業務收入明細表裏面就是在這個露營區的部分就是這個業績滑落比較嚴重的這個部分那這部分的話是不是說我們應該要來說明它到底發生了什麼事情為什麼在這個營運上面那個露營區的部分是比較不如預期呢"},{"start":3493.402,"end":3513.272,"text":"請問主委跟委員報告武陵農場這三年勞務的收入113年收入下滑他主要原因是他第二個賓館進行換月的整修那整修之後他房客當然是會減少減少大概5萬多人5萬多人所以他衰退了有11.4%這是主要的原因"},{"start":3517.294,"end":3528.263,"text":"當然剛剛委員所提到的露營區的確是有一些問題那我們檢討第一個就是喉癌喉癌搶食的問題這個要怎麼處理呢確實是網路上的評價是這麼說的迷喉過多所以我們就盡量設置一些"},{"start":3535.489,"end":3552.497,"text":"警語跟告示牌不要餵食不要挑釁不要接觸像這些告示牌然後可能我們還要再加派國家公園裡面這些巡檢員去巡視巡檢去看看這些危害的情形我們都會這樣子做還有一個是環境的改善"},{"start":3553.49,"end":3556.01,"text":"本席提醒一下退府會"},{"start":3580.535,"end":3597.904,"text":"侯子的問題不要退輔會自己處理會議一下農業部就是說保育這個不管是動物或怎麼樣任何的處理會相關業管可能比退輔會處理我很怕你們發獵槍下去就麻煩了好不好請坐請坐謝謝接下來進行詢答委員是沈伯陽委員"},{"start":3608.882,"end":3609.022,"text":"主席"},{"start":3619.588,"end":3640.758,"text":"委員好歡迎回到這個國防外交那這一個我還是一樣就是說我先重整一下之前的問題那大部分今天還是會關注在這個退降跟就業輔導這兩大問題上面那我就直接先從這一個新聞來切入就是這一次一樣就是一樣會有這一個黃埔那這一次我們可以看到"},{"start":3641.658,"end":3664.049,"text":"專修班校友會理事長蔣承隆有講到說他要回到這個發源地要回到這個主校來慎重追援那這裡面有好幾個層次的問題那我一個一個來問第一個我想先問一下就是退輔會對於這個的立場就是說在這幾年呢在2023年的時候有講到三不原則不接受採訪不發表政治言論不要有媒體報導"},{"start":3665.029,"end":3665.43,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":3677.22,"end":3699.77,"text":"各位委員報告今年是我們黃埔建軍百年的孝慶這是非常重大的一個日子跟活動我們退府會有關系的以本會為目的的事業主管機關有36個退府的組織社團我們一直以來都在做宣導第一個就提醒"},{"start":3701.631,"end":3724.004,"text":"要秉持對等尊嚴,然後遵守兩岸條例相關的法律規範這是最重要的,要記得保護自己不得從事防害國家安全和利益的活動這是第一個大前提當然第二個就是委員剛剛這裡面所提到的三不原則不接受媒體採訪,不發表政策,不要有媒體報導另外我們特別強調"},{"start":3726.494,"end":3729.706,"text":"王牧百年孝敬的陣頭是在我們臺灣的鳳山"},{"start":3733.479,"end":3759.505,"text":"因為先總統蔣公當初創校第一任校長來我們鳳山副校也是先總統蔣公所以這才是陣頭我們一再的宣導當然我們退伍軍人這些相關社團他們都非常都非常是大體都非常明理展現大仁大義的精神就我們現在所了解"},{"start":3760.265,"end":3760.905,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":3778.172,"end":3795.104,"text":"據我瞭解大概會超過一萬人去參加這兩天的活動兩天的活動所以我也感謝在這裡感謝我們退伍軍人先進前輩大家的支持跟配合我們所瞭解的狀況是這樣的跟委員做回報"},{"start":3807.812,"end":3826.758,"text":"第二就是剛剛前面有提到就是在6月15跟16號的時候我們自己也應該會有活動所以可以跟他去辦在同一個時間這才是重要的為什麼就是因為像我們看到這一個七天六夜之旅他這個65歲以上要1萬765歲要1萬9這個金額其實跟以前比較起來看起來是比較高所以當然對我們來講就是說這個金額高的時候他們當然會比較不願意去"},{"start":3835.701,"end":3855.763,"text":"但是如果他的金額變成只有7500跟9500的時候他的誘因還是會在所以就像剛剛竹偉講的其實不能只是我們不可能跟他做這種金錢上的角逐而是因為把這一個話語權搶回來應該還是比較重要的事情好那我接下來要問的第二件事情就是呢因為退降畢竟還是這個中國滲透非常重要的一個對象"},{"start":3858.286,"end":3880.807,"text":"前幾個月我們在討論這些所有滲透事項的時候大部分來講可以看到中間這一排的工具就是旅遊、金錢跟發展願景這幾個它不太會有其他的理由它要麼就是用旅遊要麼就是用金錢做引誘要麼就是用發展跟願景那這個旅遊這個部分一直以來我覺得是比較難掌握的地方"},{"start":3881.407,"end":3898.643,"text":"因為之前主委已經接近520的交接所以沒有辦法做盤點但我希望看能不能在這兩個月的時候看能不能先稍微掌握一下目前從事這個旅遊業相關的大概到底有多少人因為畢竟這個是屬於高風險不代表他們有問題"},{"start":3899.304,"end":3915.443,"text":"只是說這個風險存在因為這是一個標準對方要來接觸我們退降的一個方式那金錢我剛剛講過你不可能跟他做金錢的這個競逐所以這個部分先擺到一邊那最後這個發展跟願景我覺得就是重要的所以接下來呢就是關於我們的這個就業相關"},{"start":3917.245,"end":3944.474,"text":"福利相關的我相信很多委員應該會關心所以就業我記得上次在最後的時候有提到這個職壓發展對不對那我先從這一次的業務報告來看就是我們有看到這個是專案徵才活動那可以看到這個參加人數跟這個這個媒合率看起來是不錯但是因為參加人數跟那個退的人數看起來好像有一個落差所以是不是可以先說明一下為什麼他的參加人數跟這個因為畢竟不管第一類還第二類都已經有上萬"},{"start":3945.535,"end":3961.334,"text":"這一個為何參加人數沒有那麼多的原因為何這個我跟委員說明一下他這個是專案徵才所以專案徵才是針對特定的專長像國軍來講他有化學兵有工兵有資訊通訊這些這是屬於特殊的專長"},{"start":3965.238,"end":3991.548,"text":"針對這些人來辦的一個偵查活動所以他人數自然是比退伍的要少因為退伍的除了這些專長之外其他一般初級、中級、高級專長總統統都在這裡面所以他人數是多的那這個專案偵查活動只是針對這個特定的人辦的那第二個可能就這些人我們通知他或者他要接受但當天他可能也不一定來得了因為部隊畢竟還有部隊的任務"},{"start":3993.149,"end":4011.452,"text":"這兩個因素委員會就有回報這兩個可能是沒辦法一致的那這個專案真才這邊就點出一個問題就是說其實在專案的部分因為他本來就是有一定的專長所以他媒合率自然會高那如果不能被分類在這個裡面的人對我們來講我們還是需要能夠輔助他就業嗎這會是重要的"},{"start":4012.072,"end":4033.781,"text":"所以這就是又回到之前講到這個質押探索就是說我看一下往下就是說我們的這一個質押探索營目前是15個場是450人那一直以來呢就是就我們自己的了解質押探索是可以讓他自己知道他可能要往哪一個方向發展那當然呢我覺得這也是蠻重要的因為最近立法院有一個壞習慣就是說呢我們認為重要的比如說我認為這個質押探索營要辦15場我覺得太少"},{"start":4038.723,"end":4057.59,"text":"所以我乾脆立一個法說一年要辦300場預算要放個1000萬這是不合理的事情立法委員的職責應該是我們建議說我們目前看到的在執行上面這個執行看起來特別好那如果特別好的話行政機關才是真正了解的那行政機關就應該要可能編列在預算裡面"},{"start":4058.63,"end":4059.071,"text":"我請池組長跟您報告"},{"start":4076.631,"end":4096.323,"text":"趙偉委員大家好我是舊學舊學處處長跟委員報告職在探索營的成效都是高達百分之九十幾的一個滿意度成效非常好那但是因為這些參加人員的對象是要由國防部來提供那國防部坦白講因為他的戰訓本部的任務是非常的多"},{"start":4097.163,"end":4098.063,"text":"因為時間的關係,那我就先到這邊,謝謝"},{"start":4124.861,"end":4142.468,"text":"好是謝謝沈博耀委員接下來有請王定宇召委好謝謝主席麻煩顏主委顏主委"},{"start":4150.72,"end":4168.417,"text":"委員主委今天是你第一次以退輔會主委的身份來到我們301但這裡你不陌生我們在這邊共事大概有三四年的時間歡迎你來那今天我就一些延續性的政策問題向主委請教相關的業管單位如果需要補充的就自己上來我就不另外請了"},{"start":4169.498,"end":4190.111,"text":"在4月29號本席做了一個臨時提案當時這個臨時提案的基礎是在於賴清德總統他補助私校學費每年三萬五千元的基礎所以財務結構已經改變有新的變數那原本我們的退役人員子女的教育補助費只補助到中校"},{"start":4191.175,"end":4208.454,"text":"那因為擴大也就是賴清德總統從選舉到真正執行擴大了私立學校所有的孩子都能夠補助到三萬五千元所以回來省市我們上校子女跟中校子女的差額就有一個三萬五的基礎距離就沒那麼遠"},{"start":4209.295,"end":4231.142,"text":"所以在這個基礎下呢財務的結構改變所以當時我們在4月29號吧做了一個臨時提案當時臨時提案也感謝本會的同仁不分黨派的委員都參與連署那這個事情目前我們是建議提升到上校以下目前退府會處理的進度"},{"start":4232.543,"end":4254.225,"text":"是不是請這個主委報告一下跟召委報告這個議題恢復上校階以上領奉人員資歷補助費我們退伍會一直以來都積極的爭取從107年希望能夠恢復因為上校他們退伍的年齡大概在50歲上下所以他們的子女大概都在讀大學"},{"start":4256.708,"end":4257.268,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":4279.892,"end":4294.927,"text":"很多個理由啦我剛才講第一個財務結構因為新的賴清德政府已經把私立學校的子女補助到3萬5了嘛這是財務的理由一個實況的理由我們都了解退伍軍人在中校跟上校之間退休給予差異其實沒那麼大"},{"start":4295.507,"end":4321.444,"text":"所以當時這個行政命令這條線劃在那裡我們也認為有可以再討論的地方那本席是樂見這件事情往正面的方向去處理那我們也看到你們5月6號發了公文到行政院但行政院財主人事到退回你們是一體的你們叫行政部門我們也希望行政部門能夠有一致的態度那怎麼處理這件事情我們現在就從財務上來看我剛已經講了經過精算"},{"start":4325.507,"end":4344.197,"text":"因為私立學校三萬五千元的補助已經有了所以那個差額會讓上校子女納入教育補助費的話大概金額是在五千一百零五萬四千元的預算需求這是財務的部分在做法上也就是法律上該怎麼處理"},{"start":4346.496,"end":4364.293,"text":"有人認為說應該用提修法來處理本席認為任何方法我都尊重但本席要提醒在增加預算的預算案或者其他方式的提案修法案等等要求行政部門做增加支出之提議"},{"start":4365.731,"end":4390.344,"text":"如果行政部門我指的是行政院整體是不同意的認為至愛難行的這可能會違反憲法70條跟大法官釋憲391條所以一件我們有共識的事情我們應該尋求比較適當的方式來做而不是陷入政黨的競爭啦政黨的彼此之間的立場啦甚至於陷入了憲法上"},{"start":4391.024,"end":4416.613,"text":"可能有違憲的疑慮所以修法有一個前提以前什麼也修法那必須是行政部門同意也就是行政權同意跟立法權有經過充分的溝通那就沒有跟憲法第70條跟釋憲文391條有所焊隔那當然還是要大法官來解釋有沒有違憲我只是說那個程序上可能有這樣子的一個情形"},{"start":4417.573,"end":4443.474,"text":"事實上如果要增加上校的子女列入我們教育補助費的話我們看一下文號當年怎麼處理的當年退輔會修正把那個叫退休這個指令退休奉善養金或生活補助費的人員子女教育補助費他有一個叫做發給作業要點他其實行政命令所以如果本席在429這個提案"},{"start":4445.356,"end":4462.062,"text":"行政院跟推幅會認為可行事實上你們就把作業要點做修正就可以執行了不用用到修法所以有幾種不同的做法所以我會建議推幅會競訴跟行政院跟人長跟財主單位溝通好"},{"start":4462.802,"end":4492.599,"text":"如果不能做也明確表達至愛難行之處在哪裡我們用臨時提案其實就是建請讓你們好好去研議而不是用我們的立法權去強迫行政機關一定要花什麼錢那個其實有憲政上的漢格那如果認為可行我們也希望禁訴因為下學期8月1號開始能夠禁訴8月1號以前透過作業要點行政命令的處理呢讓上校子女可以納入我這樣建議我不曉得我們主委有什麼想法"},{"start":4493.519,"end":4514.55,"text":"謝謝趙委指導,我們照趙委的指導來進行,我們盡速跟行政院去協調那希望我們盡快啦,卓院長那邊或者是相關人長、財主單位,我們希望在未來這一兩個禮拜可以看到比較好的這個方向的發展那我接下來要請教主委,你看一下我們的退服會所屬醫院護理人員"},{"start":4517.605,"end":4537.598,"text":"在全國護理人員的離職率平均數是大概2021年2022年呢都在10%上下大概10個百分點上下就發現這個2022年呢高榮有比較高一點他上面寫一個實質的實際離職率是8.9那"},{"start":4541.505,"end":4557.285,"text":"後來到2023年是10.6等等但是全國平均還沒有算出來我現在請教就是說全國缺護理人員我們現在站了一排的院長我現在沒有想到說那麼多人出來要不然我們那個北榮院長留下來當代表就好了其他先請回"},{"start":4559.528,"end":4581.955,"text":"那個其他的院長我一樣尊重我認為不用那麼多人上來這個問題其實是醫界共通的問題護理師離職率過高人力不足甚至於在其他的醫院體系像我們台南的有一間醫院還因為醫生夠但護理師不夠把整個樓層的病房關掉要等招募足夠的護理師我不知道主委對於我們因為我們的"},{"start":4584.176,"end":4603.816,"text":"農民醫院對照顧農民農眷還有一般大眾其實很重要我們也是長照各方面的指標啦我不知道我們的不管是就醫處還是院長這邊還是主委我們的護理人員你們現在有沒有什麼樣的因應的方式提高他的留任或者增加聘任人員請回答"},{"start":4604.376,"end":4626.793,"text":"跟昭偉報告我們榮總的護理人員離職率我們的平均值是並沒有高於全國那目前第4屆我們的離職率也只有2.3成為這張表裡面所顯示的那剛剛昭偉所提到的高榮護理人員他的離職率據我的了解主要是屏東榮總屏東榮總成立之後他"},{"start":4627.333,"end":4645.674,"text":"高榮這裡面唯一的離差數據其實是高榮五六流高榮的院長你幫他講啦就是說高榮的離職率特別要是因為有人力撥到屏隆去叫屏隆對撥到屏隆可是撥走了高榮本身那些職缺是移走了還是還有職缺在那裡要等待補充"},{"start":4646.215,"end":4661.054,"text":"沒有 後續的話就是因為他成立屏隆所以他有一部分人力直缺分出去了對 但後續他會再補充所以他那個直缺還是在高隆對 還是在高隆所以屏隆是新增的開圈是新的對所以現在高隆就變成人力短缺嘛"},{"start":4661.634,"end":4689.08,"text":"他就是持續會再招募新的人員進來陳院長你可以先請回我請高榮院長來這個有沒有影響他們的業務其實護理師阿長這個對醫院的業務很重要你現在把他人力分到高榮可是高榮本來是新的職缺為了成立這新的醫院把人先分出去高榮現在護理師不足有沒有影響你們的業務謝謝各位的關心目前是沒有影響我們醫療業務那我們就不用補了把缺去掉就好了"},{"start":4690.356,"end":4697.713,"text":"沒有原則上我們原來職缺的話大概群院啦你現在告訴我沒有影響業務嗎因為你的服務的群"},{"start":4698.908,"end":4722.54,"text":"那個base不變嘛,然後你把人力撥到屏隆去了,你這邊出缺不管是8.9或18.3,完全沒有影響業務,那我會建議退輔會主委這些缺就不用補啦,預缺不補啊。不好意思,在109年開始的話,我們就開始培訓人員啦,那開始109年到110年總共培訓了大概300多位的人員。應該有影響吧,你講沒有影響幹嘛培訓人員?"},{"start":4723.42,"end":4747.573,"text":"培訓人的目的是要把他轉到那個屏隆所以在屏隆開幕的時候我們大概有344位我還想要了解說缺了8.9或缺了18%這些人去屏隆支援我知道嘛你現在訓練的人要回到高融或去到屏隆都是就像撞球一樣嘛一個補一個嘛那你該告訴我說你們現在缺了8點多完全不影響高融的業務那你何必補人勒"},{"start":4748.553,"end":4757.506,"text":"持續還是要補人 因為一定會影響但是我們原則上我們從微數的話院長我不為難你啦從不會影響到現在一定會影響我如果接下來問你影響哪裡你要怎麼回答"},{"start":4760.697,"end":4779.671,"text":"有影響因為護理人員醫療人員其實有他的辛苦這些辛苦過勞會導致他你再高的報酬他走就不回來不要把人抄到留不住軍中也一樣我們應該是在適當的工作的loading然後就要開始讓人力能夠補充上來"},{"start":4780.692,"end":4803.199,"text":"人不是機器啦所以我希望各位院長人力不足導致業務上的困難或者我帶的所屬工作過重要勇於說出來那當將來年底的預算會結束你要增加預算才有個理由嘛因為軍人或軍醫的習慣都打包票絕對沒問題你那個沒問題會導致困難啦所以這部分我們要再繼續溝通謝謝"},{"start":4807.66,"end":4835.186,"text":"好謝謝王定宇召委接著我們邀請的是林楚英委員葉主席主席有請顏主委來顏主委林委員好"},{"start":4835.868,"end":4852.406,"text":"主委好 那麼剛剛有關於王定宇委員所問到的當然就是有關於我們退休的軍官那麼子女的教育補貼的部分那我想這個站在退服會主委的立場一定當然是希望照顧所有的這些退役的將領跟軍官"},{"start":4853.787,"end":4866.362,"text":"那麼當然這個財政的部分也必須要做一個考量那麼立法院一直以來其實就是我們對於這個行政部門有認為不足的部分我們會提取來做一些修法或是監督但是這樣的建議的部分當然還是要斟酌來考量整體國家的財政"},{"start":4870.246,"end":4881.749,"text":"但既然5月6號退伏會這裡已經跟行政院有一些文書上的往來跟建議的話我也建議主委要回去在行政院內部做一個好好的溝通因為講來說實話我們國家整體的財政這個餅就這麼大那這個餅這麼大底下我們要照顧的各方面其實都有"},{"start":4890.071,"end":4918.043,"text":"所以也希望主委在回去的時候能夠緊速來做一個討論因為我相信所有的這些國軍弟兄們也都在關注跟了解好 那麼我接下來要詢問的題目其實也是跟當然您的這個有關係就是首先我想請問的是全國有多少的榮家退府會底下的榮家有幾間您知道嗎榮家有16所"},{"start":4919.484,"end":4933.064,"text":"對16所那這16所的榮家齁他們當然就是照顧我們退役的這些弟兄們的需求那麼我這樣請問您榮家等不等於我們長照當中的一環的一個機構"},{"start":4934.781,"end":4952.8,"text":"我們榮家現在也有在辦理長照的服務是那麼因為我們除了這些退役的榮民來使用之外他其實也有把一些床位撥給一般的民眾如果有空床嘛對不對好那不論如何其實他所做的這個所謂服務的內容是"},{"start":4956.058,"end":4958.219,"text":"政府在推長照是普遍獲得全民一致的肯定的那麼為了讓長照更有規範的時候我們有一個長照服務機構的定型化契約"},{"start":4977.651,"end":4980.152,"text":"原因就在於對於這些進駐到這些長照機構的不論是民眾或者是所需求者來說他會有一些契約上訂定的時候他是屬於比較弱勢的一方因為機構權力畢竟還是比較大"},{"start":4992.819,"end":4997.802,"text":"那麼我找到一個部分是長照的定型化契約比如說第15條來講的話返還膳食費機構如果這個當事人因為有其他的理由到機構外連續兩天以上那麼就會返還相當的這個所謂膳食那麼但是如果是以養護長照的這個定型化契約來講的話他其實就變成是你要依這個定型化契約來做規範"},{"start":5018.354,"end":5028.921,"text":"但是本席所找到的我們的榮家的很多的這個版本啊都是各自為證我剛剛提的是長照服務機構這個是在我們長照推定之後給予的相關的範本就以第15條連續在外生活的日期我們的長照定期化契約是兩天喔兩天就要訪環人家喔可是我們的榮家裡面有的是三天甚至於還有這中"},{"start":5047.492,"end":5076.223,"text":"中章的容加是規定到7天我會特別剛剛用這個來詢問主委的就是說我們容加照顧我們的退休的軍官不是要給予的條件應該更好嗎對我我認為啦我個人認為如果可以的話至少你應該要跟上長照定型化契約長照機構的定型化契約而不是我們沒有經過一些修正然後沒有跟上該有的進度"},{"start":5077.383,"end":5101.039,"text":"包括這些規範我想主委您一來看你就會發現說好像我們榮家不只是各自為政自己來訂定自己的定型化契約甚至於這個定型化契約是沒有跟上現在我們有關於衛福部針對長照服務機構的定型化契約本席有問過衛福部衛福部說因為榮家不是他們所管理的這個部分但是"},{"start":5102.601,"end":5108.832,"text":"開場我就問主委了我想很明確的告訴你是我發現這個定型化的契約好像是在106年制定的但是我們現在已經來到了"},{"start":5112.383,"end":5112.443,"text":"來 主委"},{"start":5133.412,"end":5160.334,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我看了委員剛剛的質詢的資料我也很訝異這個我們榮家如果是這樣的確處長就在我後面我們值得檢討因為我們榮家主要服務的目的就是照顧我們的榮民不管是他就養養護失智長到這一塊這是應當要能夠優化那如果委員這個指導這裏面定性化區域是這樣的話我們應該回去要做修正"},{"start":5160.694,"end":5188.745,"text":"好那我希望說給這個主委跟退輔委這邊一點時間我們來全面檢視尤其是剛剛主委提到嘛16家結果我一一來翻閱他們的定型化期會發現各自為政然後沒有一套的標準而且變成是因為我今天申請到的床位或是我現在所在的居住地那規範不一樣一個連續外宿幾天的部分就有7天有3天各不相同來幫我下一頁對"},{"start":5189.705,"end":5193.308,"text":"所以我希望主委是不是可以給我一個時間點我們多久可以來顯示或者是我們請這個處長來回覆有多少的時間然後我們來做一個回覆好不好"},{"start":5203.63,"end":5224.406,"text":"報告委員好,我是市局長楊淑儒,署長鍾玉國,我們本來是按照老服機構設施設備,長照這邊,但是這個長照是優於我們老服機構,因為兩天外可以退伙,下去我會全面來檢討,大概您給我三個月時間,我辦一些規定,農家自行的規定,我要統一化"},{"start":5225.507,"end":5240.759,"text":"才比較適合的方式來滿足榮民圈的需求好太好謝謝處長因為我知道你們原本都是follow這個所謂遵循這個老福法但是我們知道在這個長照法出來之後呢它的整體的規範是優於我們榮家但我只想調教這一點就是我們既然身為退福會我們照顧榮民"},{"start":5245.683,"end":5269.932,"text":"那麼前面有另外一個新法更優越更優渥的話再定型化契約其實定型化契約就是定在那裡摺幽來修改是摺幽修改好那就三個月的時間好嗎好那麼另外我要問的是來我們的往後就是其實本席在3月6號的時候曾經來下一張對再下一張有提出就是有關於退役的軍官前面我們講到的是照顧那照顧的部分我們摺幽來處理"},{"start":5273.473,"end":5278.877,"text":"但是如果面對背叛國家背叛軍隊像這樣子以國安法被違反來判刑的我認為退休縫追回來是絕對天經地義這個必須要樹立的典範就是賞罰分明那麼本席當時就指出有將近4000萬的退休縫高達85%還沒有追回那麼這個部分是我在3月6號的質詢今天來到5月了已經過了兩個月請問一下有進度嗎"},{"start":5301.593,"end":5320.181,"text":"如果沒有進度可不可以請主委也把它當成是你上任之後必須要處理的這個部分因為本席非常堅持那就是對於軍人弟兄的照顧不論是他們在職或退休之後絕對給他最好的照顧但是對於那些違規違紀的我認為就是要嚴格的懲處然後做一個處理"},{"start":5324.647,"end":5332.776,"text":"跟委員報告違反國安法依法行政這是一定要追究的我們一定會貫徹免利那現在執行的進度我請處長再給你補充說一下請摘要"},{"start":5335.485,"end":5361.68,"text":"委員好我是退出役副處的處長那有關於這個國安法有15個人我們已經完成7個人的收繳那另外8個人全部都已經移送法務部來做行政執行那後續每年在所得稅申報完之後我們在七八月間還會再做一次盤點做一次再這個移送以上報告好您很瞭解我因為我知道這個所得稅剛報完了所以後續我會繼續再追"},{"start":5363.1,"end":5367.103,"text":"好謝謝林楚瑩委員各位請回接下來進行詢問黃仁委員有請謝謝主席有請我們嚴主委來主委請"},{"start":5385.925,"end":5400.795,"text":"委員好你好新人新政新作風也希望有一個新的里程碑在你任內那當然我們看到你的業務報告裡面就是按就看這個就養的一個年齡"},{"start":5402.287,"end":5416.536,"text":"那我就針對原住民的這個部分的就養的議題因為現在我們在中央人民會政策已經制定出來就是我們降低到55歲"},{"start":5419.177,"end":5438.529,"text":"能夠得享以各項的一些補助那當然各縣市裡面就按照地方的收支財政作為劃分它的一個能不能補助那以中央的制定出這個全國原住民的政策裡面就是以55歲為標準"},{"start":5440.29,"end":5464.442,"text":"所以我看這個就養業務是退補會最重要的一個業務當然我們這個榮民之家就等同我們的長照的一個一環本身認為之所以就養業務就是本意照顧榮民不只是榮民生活無欲也讓榮民尊嚴的生活如此才能"},{"start":5466.57,"end":5486.104,"text":"提現國家對農民奉獻的一個感謝退不回的公費就養年齡定為61歲以上但卻沒有考慮到原住民的特殊性請問主委你認為這將原住民農民就養年齡認定規定降低"},{"start":5489.106,"end":5512.743,"text":"跟委員報告我們在上個月28號也跟原民會去協調去協商瞭解原住民相關的一些目前的福利的措施誠如委員剛剛所說的降低55歲的案例這些原住民的給付還有這些健保這些都有很多的措施"},{"start":5513.584,"end":5517.087,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5529.096,"end":5555.962,"text":"那55歲到61歲我們現在就養是61歲那這個6歲的差距大概是2000多個人人數也不算很多所以基於照顧袍澤羅明的精神我們基本上我們會相關的一些就養的一些規定辦法原住民這部分條件要55歲然後我們要向行政院爭取納入法規的修正跟國防委員做報告"},{"start":5556.482,"end":5571.683,"text":"好謝謝主委因為本席提出幾個字幾個數字認為主委為什麼讓原住民的公費就養應該降到55歲的原因跟理由第一"},{"start":5572.386,"end":5588.389,"text":"原住民人口僅在人口數的2.5%但原住民在國軍志願役人數卻在高達8.7尤其是今時的特種部隊中族人比例甚至超過半數"},{"start":5589.67,"end":5617.6,"text":"這顯示原住民對國家的貢獻應該得到的尊重第二關於年老部分原住民平均移民比一般少了7到10歲左右如果用一般人的老年來定義原住民的老年這是假平等那第三經濟狀況的方面110年度調查顯示原住民主家庭"},{"start":5618.54,"end":5643.345,"text":"可支配所得的每一副是78.58萬元而一般國民可支配所得每一副是109萬.6元所以原住民的信息水準僅為一般家庭的七成所以第四現在原住民老人的這個政策降低標準為55歲的案例有"},{"start":5644.571,"end":5651.36,"text":"原住民給付2新北市原住民健保補助3六度愛心勁勞勁勞卡資格4公費"},{"start":5656.098,"end":5683.913,"text":"肺炎鏈球菌疫苗施打可見各級政府已經用實際政策在定義原住民的老人55歲所以主委希望能夠趕快定案那讓我們全國這些榮民榮健得到更加的一些照顧因為他是等同我們一般榮民之家的一個照顧的一環"},{"start":5684.853,"end":5699.948,"text":"那另外我們追溯到這個原住民的傳統的領域那國民政府來台佔用不少原住民的傳統領域在其中退股會也有一些土地如何處理"},{"start":5702.406,"end":5714.473,"text":"蔡政府前總統曾經針對原住民土地流失的問題說過追溯歷史的真相那其中就特別提到退補會那我們講"},{"start":5715.834,"end":5738.861,"text":"原住民土地流失最主要的因為在民國36年當時以臺灣省政府制定一個土地清理辦法那結果把原住民的土地全部收歸國有那這些土地後來變成林務局臺堂包含我們退普會的土地那雖然民國96年"},{"start":5740.101,"end":5753.591,"text":"行政院核定補助增化邊﹚原住民保留地及實施計劃但這主要是做清查的工作﹚原住民要處理使用傳統領域及土地的使用限制﹚所以"},{"start":5754.793,"end":5770.141,"text":"本席認為說有一些閒置的空間是不是可以規劃我們這個原住民組的一個社會專屬社會住宅那因為在我看一下這個"},{"start":5773.406,"end":5801.251,"text":"這個地方你看好原住民土地的權利恢復還有很長的路本席建議退不會可以換個思維就退不會現有的都會席閒置的土地或舊設看是否能夠供有原住民的專屬社會住宅以照顧我們這個原住民的這個榮賤榮民包含活化這些閒置的土地諸委聯委呢"},{"start":5803.001,"end":5821.219,"text":"委員我請我們事業處處長跟您做一個詳細的說明好委員好我是事業處處長楊長正委員剛剛提的問題我跟您報告目前為止我們農場土地大概有6238公頃在原住民地區的土地有4810公頃剩餘1500公頃在平地地區"},{"start":5825.223,"end":5850.62,"text":"不屬於原住民地但是沒有一塊土地是屬於傳統領域跟所謂的原住民保留區那真化邊的部分從民國109年開始申請以後總共申請了54公頃我們審查符合規定的完了51公頃剩下還有3公頃在各縣市政府的相公所在那邊審查如果符合規定我們一定會歸還這個土絕對沒有問題"},{"start":5852.421,"end":5853.401,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員"},{"start":5900.404,"end":5901.271,"text":"您好我們請主委嚴主委請"},{"start":5908.997,"end":5931.565,"text":"陳委員好 主委好主委我們今天在您拜會的時候我們有提到關於這個退伍軍人的就業輔導方面那特別是事先介入等等的那我今天特別想要針對美國在退伍軍人的這個就業輔導方面的成功經驗一方面分享給國人一方面跟主委討論我們有什麼可以更經濟的空間"},{"start":5933.246,"end":5958.831,"text":"那我想大概在座的每一位我們的這個官員應該都很清楚的跟美國有很多很平板的接觸跟交流那他們的這個Transitional Assistance Program跟Veterans Employment and Training Service計畫就是在幫助退伍軍人順利過渡到民間職場那提供了全面化甚至我可以說是客製化的服務"},{"start":5959.892,"end":5976.446,"text":"那這個計畫從士兵預計退役一年前就開始介入那主委拜訪的時候我們有提到說現在開始我們已經走這個路線了那提供這個包含自我評估就業輔導職涯規劃等等那還有特別去介紹每一種"},{"start":5977.186,"end":6003.262,"text":"退伍軍人可以享受的福利這種預先介入全程陪伴的方式我認為是幫助軍人平穩的度過這個轉換期是非常重要的那這些服務在他們退役後的一年當然是繼續都會有處理那甚至對家屬而言這個有些服務是還可以終身那這種持續的支持表示說美國民眾還有美國政府對這些退伍軍人的這個長期的重視"},{"start":6004.505,"end":6028.997,"text":"那在VETS計畫中也有一些亮點他們就是不只提供就業計畫就業媒合他們還十分保護退伍軍人的就業權益那他們計畫跟一些大型的企業合作這些大型企業當然不是像我們台灣這種新自備的而是真的是在市場上面這個私營的機構像是AT&T、沃爾瑪等大企業"},{"start":6030.057,"end":6051.983,"text":"那這種提供給退伍軍人是很多元的就業選擇那特別是針對專業技術人員的支持像是美國的退役海軍少將我看他的像馬克蒙哥馬力他現職是在保衛民主基金會擔任網路跟科技創新中心的總監那另外一位是美國太平洋陸戰隊的前司令那之前是有率領27位27家美國的"},{"start":6055.39,"end":6057.652,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6077.365,"end":6105.947,"text":"無縫接軌到一般的民間企業那這些過程當中我們是希望是加強這個部分而不是在我們看到其實也不僅一次了很多之前的主委也有提供一些我們相關的報告大概是說我們就業輔導的比例是多少多少是在新智貝的公司那百分比是多少等等這些都我不會反對因為這是每個人的決定但是就國家的長遠立場來說的話讓退役的從將官開始都能夠"},{"start":6107.188,"end":6131.721,"text":"系統性的進入這個我們的國防產業鏈系統性的進入我們台灣最機敏的防禦的這個就他們退伍了還是國防的一份子這很重要我必須強調說在過去的二三十年來我們我們小時候所想像的農民通常都會加一個老字那現在沒有了在我們本辦公室大概"},{"start":6132.81,"end":6133.19,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":6151.178,"end":6174.829,"text":"有些我們在過去講到這些退伍的軍官也好或者是一般的士兵也好常常會被酸說是三保就是保全保險跟保塔那至少在我們辦公室過去其實蠻多人做過保全跟保險那還有一個是做過保塔的所以基本上三個職業在我們的過去的僱傭的部分都有"},{"start":6175.729,"end":6190.14,"text":"但我覺得很可惜的原因是在於他們在他們的職能跟他們對工作的這一個奉獻度還有他們的努力程度其實在心中是訓練的蠻好的那我只是說我們前一張來看一下就是說像是剛才我們提到的"},{"start":6191.406,"end":6216.329,"text":"網路與科技創新中心他擔任總監表示他過去在他擔任軍職的時候都有吸收這樣子的知識跟資源我們希望能夠加強這個部分那我現在想要請教主委的是說我知道退伍會現在是想要設法讓官兵弟兄在退役之前先跟業界對接啦那退伍會在挖掘和促進退役軍官專業技術人員的就業潛力方面"},{"start":6216.969,"end":6237.589,"text":"還有沒有可以接近或者是提升的地方?特別是我剛剛提到的關鍵技術的部分是 謝謝委員指導有關於就業這部分我們退伍會的任務就是要怎麼樣去培訓退除役官兵他職場的跟外面的一個競爭的能力怎麼樣要提升剛剛委員指導了很多"},{"start":6238.489,"end":6260.11,"text":"這裏面我們目前在我們就業事處規劃之下也都有考量把納入規劃包含國防也好科技也好航太也好以及當然講的網路電腦這些在專案徵才裏面我們都一部分把它來做一個做一個私信的一個宣導宣教那另外我們的重點剛剛我們在業務報告裏面也提了我們"},{"start":6261.551,"end":6277.976,"text":"現在在國防部裡面部隊裡面他軍職專長怎麼樣跟民間專長能很快速的去借鑒然後很快就可以回復職場就看我目前也在做那幫剛剛委員所提到的這些那我想來詳細執行部分我再請我們就會處長的說明"},{"start":6280.322,"end":6283.667,"text":"委員好 我是舊學階的處處長跟您補充說明就是有關於我們絕對是要輔導我們的現役官兵在軍中他的所學跟他的專長退伍以後絕對是有用的"},{"start":6295.342,"end":6306.974,"text":"而不是說完全歸零然後只能夠像過去一樣您剛剛所提到從事三保的工作這不是我們現行的就業輔導的一個政策我們希望它就是為什麼剛剛我們主委已經提到這幾年我們一直跟國防部積極的在洽談把它在軍中的一個專長我們把它對接到跟民間能夠有一個盤點出來"},{"start":6318.706,"end":6318.966,"text":"我簡單的再回應一下"},{"start":6334.156,"end":6361.944,"text":"比方說我是希望說他能夠快速的代號化或者是系統化的意思就是說你在軍中你是負責跟cyber security相關的那我們可以把它作為分明別列他的能力到哪裡CS101隨便我隨便CSB等C等D等那這些等級就可以直接對接到這些企業相關的這樣子做對接那這些企業必須要認證喔不要說我們在軍中然後用最簡單的方式或者是最"},{"start":6363.188,"end":6369.131,"text":"我相信是可以的因為很多這些軍中的人是他在高強度的訓練之後我相信他有足夠的韌性去面對這樣子的問題那過去在我的質詢我比較多時間是針對基層的官兵"},{"start":6384.699,"end":6391.809,"text":"但是這一次我的質詢是特別是針對降級的這些軍官因為我不像他們退職之後的另外一個工作是到電視台來去發表對"},{"start":6395.182,"end":6396.002,"text":"臺灣國防不信任的言論"},{"start":6416.969,"end":6417.329,"text":"馬文君召委"},{"start":6456.076,"end":6457.8,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請主委嚴主委請"},{"start":6465.887,"end":6486.094,"text":"主委好謝謝歡迎我們嚴主委過去在國防在付出這麼多的心力那現在在接任我們退府會的主委相信其實也是駕輕就熟因為有很多相關的業務您大概也很容易就會去理解或者可以去解決謝謝"},{"start":6490.816,"end":6519.77,"text":"我們在退府會其實他主要的工作大概就是提供我們退除役官兵還有金馬民防自衛隊員主要是提供給他們救血救夜救醫還有救養照顧服務以及退出給予的這樣子的一個主要的專責機關那在上一次馮主委最後一次巡打的時候本席也特別對於榮民救醫的部分在他"},{"start":6520.71,"end":6535.181,"text":"目前現階段是有區別有職榮民跟無職榮民的這樣子的一個區分那他最大的差別就是像健保費的部分無職榮民我想今天又特別再提出來是希望"},{"start":6535.401,"end":6536.121,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6557.414,"end":6560.236,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6587.835,"end":6606.669,"text":"退伍會一直在輔導榮民的就學就業讓青壯年的榮民在退伍以後可以繼續的跟社會銜接而且可以貢獻所學甚至還可以解決目前缺工缺人才的這樣一個社會問題可是在過去這些優惠的"},{"start":6607.769,"end":6623.936,"text":"條件的區隔其實似乎讓人家會感覺到這個好像是對有職農民就是你再去從事相關工作的時候對他們是一種差別待遇甚至讓人家覺得你有職業是一種罪過"},{"start":6625.826,"end":6640.642,"text":"另外最重要的是因為行政院為了照顧警察消防海巡及空勤人員對於國家的社會貢獻所以從108年開始警消海巡跟空勤他不管是限職"},{"start":6641.883,"end":6658.51,"text":"或者是退休人員還有他的遺卷他在就醫優惠的部分在退輔會所屬的榮怨他可以享有的優惠第一是掛號費全免由榮怨吸收第二就診及住院的程序是比照榮民來辦理第三個健保部分負擔也是全免"},{"start":6664.412,"end":6691.841,"text":"還有第4個自費健檢安置就養的費用也是比照農民的優惠他幾乎跟無職業的農民他所享受的這些優惠待遇是一致的可是在這幾個方案當中他也沒有把警消還有這些海巡相關的退休人員他有去分有職業或無職業他是全體適用而且這是行政命令而已"},{"start":6692.461,"end":6697.364,"text":"那對於有職榮民我們反而在榮院並沒有辦法享受到這樣的待遇其實就這個部分因為現在我們募兵這麼困難那榮民其實只要我們的兵役制度還像這樣的志願役的制度存在的情況之下我們一直會有榮民那你把它區分成這樣會讓他們的心理產生不平衡甚至有很多現階段尤其是我們政府單位"},{"start":6721.221,"end":6721.541,"text":"謝謝召委的指導目前錦霄"},{"start":6750.404,"end":6776.275,"text":"海巡、移民、空前人員、醫療照護在不分負擔他是免費的由單位編預算那對我們有職的農民他要來不管是20、50、70都要負擔只有士官跟士兵是百分之百我們補助其他都要致富所以這個很明顯是不公平的所以依據"},{"start":6777.91,"end":6778.29,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6808.932,"end":6814.641,"text":"報告稍微,我是就業保健處處長張仁義,現在目前正在作業,我們等於作業完會呈報行政院"},{"start":6817.984,"end":6830.072,"text":"大概在三個月之內就可以完成作業就可以完成作業那需要做到什麼樣的程度可以執行這個我們要跟到行政院這個還要到行政院所以其實我提一個比較簡單的辦法因為我剛剛提到的錦霄海巡相關的人員其實他們是用行政命令我們現在目前現階段我們大概調查了一下就是說我們現在如果是有職的這些榮民"},{"start":6845.521,"end":6852.639,"text":"其實他在榮院可能需要的經費一年才一千一百多萬"},{"start":6854.244,"end":6860.007,"text":"我建議本席建議是可以由我們的基金先來吸收因為你你曠日廢時現在已經在執行的如果大家沒有辦法公平的對待我們的軍事官兵你要他現在付出這麼多的心力來保衛我們的國家而且現在在兩岸情勢這麼緊張的情勢之下其實我們希望有更多的一些"},{"start":6879.099,"end":6879.52,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6887.688,"end":6888.869,"text":"我們全力以赴,我們會努力"},{"start":6912.93,"end":6934.683,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我想要請教第二個就是在馮前主委最後一次備詢的時候本席也曾經提到就是容院跟容家在藥事跟護理人員的編制裡面其實還是有那種過時的士跟士生級的就是護士跟藥劑生"},{"start":6936.311,"end":6952.22,"text":"的編制可是因為容家還不能像容院這樣容院其實也有可是因為他是有些年紀比較大他還沒有到達退休的年齡可是他具備的是可能是護士或藥劑生的這樣的資格所以繼續留任可是我們容家沒有辦法這樣合併編缺使用的情況之下在這裡我要再次跟馮主委"},{"start":6961.906,"end":6964.789,"text":"在這裡建議是不是就這個部分這兩類的考生因為護士最後一次考試院舉辦是101年就已經停辦了那藥劑生在82年就已經停辦了根本都沒有這兩類"},{"start":6977.142,"end":6977.322,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6992.824,"end":6993.424,"text":"請問主委你有什麼樣的"},{"start":7022.512,"end":7023.733,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7040.567,"end":7042.409,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員李柏毅委員李柏毅委員李柏毅委員不在接下來進行詢答委員徐曉欣委員"},{"start":7079.892,"end":7083.814,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個原主委主委請主委你好"},{"start":7093.028,"end":7119.313,"text":"各位好我知道您在國防部也待了一段時間那我想呢今天換了一個位置從這個照顧榮民照顧榮家的這個角色來說呢我們也希望看到的是有一個延續性過去呢我想外界對於馮世寬擔任主委的期間那都給他不管藍綠不分黨派給他很好的一個評價那我們也期許說我們的嚴主委"},{"start":7119.713,"end":7139.471,"text":"那也能夠承接下來這樣子好的評價持續照顧我們的榮民跟榮家那所以我想要問的問題首先是在這個馮主委他離任之前我曾經問過他那是否會針對這個拆除包含退輔會等等的蔣公同項的問題"},{"start":7140.792,"end":7161.605,"text":"他的回應基本上是蠻強硬的他說他堅決反對甚至他還描述了整個歷史的故事我們時間有限我也不特別去講那我們在這個powerpoint上面都有提到當時馮氏寬主委他認為他的這個對於拆除退府會相關蔣公同向的看法"},{"start":7162.185,"end":7163.086,"text":"跟委員報告我禮拜一去了一趟臺北龍家去慰問"},{"start":7186.187,"end":7202.595,"text":"那我看到臺北榮家他的安養他的養護的建築物前面有一個很大的畫像那畫像就是先總統蔣公跟蔣宋明林女士的一個畫像一個照片那家族人跟我報告說"},{"start":7204.377,"end":7231.493,"text":"他每天有榮民去那邊把它擦得很乾淨去保養那這個小的故事跟我講的我的感覺我們的榮民前輩先進跟先總統蔣公在精神上是不可分割的所以我想我的答案很清楚現狀不能夠破壞所以銅像也好畫像也好我們要維持現狀不宜去搬動它"},{"start":7232.133,"end":7233.293,"text":"最起碼文家榮院退股會的這些單位"},{"start":7258.74,"end":7285.605,"text":"我不會動他好的謝謝您這樣子的一個回覆那再來我想要問的是剛才很多朋友也有問到這個我們的同事有問到關於護理師的人力問題那想要請問我們主委我們目前在退輔會有多少的榮家跟榮總的部分我們在護理師的人力比上面呢我們自己自認為是否在護理師的人力上面是足夠的"},{"start":7287.22,"end":7293.942,"text":"跟委員報告我們龍家有16所是16所那龍院也是16個4個總院下面12個分院是總共數字是這樣那有關護理師人力的問題我們人總有規有規範"},{"start":7304.946,"end":7309.308,"text":"好那你們北榮在回覆的時候我想特別在針對1這個病戶比護理師的病戶比目前的數字做一個詢問"},{"start":7333.277,"end":7344.988,"text":"報告委員現在的北龍的護病比白班是5.5小夜班8.4大夜班11.0全日護病比是7.3都符合衛福部的標準但是你們滿意嗎"},{"start":7347.738,"end":7356.364,"text":"當然這是全國性的護理師缺乏的問題,我們積極在努力,不過北榮今年錄取要來報到的到年底已經有253位,必須的害重。"},{"start":7378.458,"end":7406.79,"text":"報告委員現在臺北榮總的我們是主要以治療重症為我們的本業所以現在目前癌症的病人開刀的人數都在成長沒有因為受到影響不過全國性的護理師的問題有些醫院的確面臨著窘境面臨這樣子的窘境還有就是關於護理師的薪資的部分這當然不是北榮一家醫院的問題這是全國的護理師都在爭取的問題但是我想要問喔作為北榮你們是否因為"},{"start":7407.45,"end":7436.445,"text":"我們比較特殊我們跟其他的醫院醫院當然護理師他們都在爭取我想要詢問北榮是不是我們也會負擔這樣的角色一起來協助我們的護理師不僅是在病戶比的部分希望能夠下手給予我們護理師更好的照顧病人的機會以及我們在薪資的水平上面能夠有所提升榮總會不會向我們的行政院也去反映這個部分榮總的需求"},{"start":7437.686,"end":7460.544,"text":"謝謝委員目前三個總院我們的護理人員的薪資是應該還有合理的薪資我們很幸運在輔導會的支持之下我們現在的工資比例是相當高北龍有70%到公子那公子是一個誘因因為他薪水相對的穩定那所以我們會起帶頭作用來跟全台灣各醫療體系來一起合作希望我們的一起努力"},{"start":7461.297,"end":7481.735,"text":"那再來齁我想要請問的是我們嚴主委喔有關於這個86年班女性士官的權益的部分退休部分的這個事情我相信這個嚴主委應該是非常的清楚可不可以向我們先稍微說明一下這個我想請我們舉部處處長就說看我演什麼"},{"start":7489.08,"end":7515.983,"text":"來我們關於86年的這個女性士官月退奉少了一萬元的事情我相信大家都非常清楚因為過去開過很多次的這個公聽會比方說我們在這個月退奉的比較表上面可以看到84年搬起85年搬起跟86年搬起因為86年他落在107年兩次軍改的中間所以你可以看到他的月退奉是少了一萬元的"},{"start":7518.393,"end":7539.562,"text":"可不可以說明一下委員這跟年改有關係跟年改有關係對沒問題我們任何人來說明我都願意委員好我是退出祈福處處長有關於86年班的這個月退奉的問題主要的就是因為他其實他在那個年改之前就辦理退伍了"},{"start":7539.662,"end":7543.506,"text":"我知道我問一個問題我們當時是否有針對事情開過協調會並且有過結論因為我時間不太夠的關係我直接講2020年5月的時候當時的副主委周浩瑜在協調會的時候"},{"start":7555.84,"end":7572.7,"text":"信誓旦旦的告訴大家說退輔會願意當退役軍事官的窗口邀請行政部門研商以專案的方式照顧各位的權益尤其女性她願意來當軍事官其實這是我們作為女性我們覺得非常了不起的一件事情"},{"start":7573.18,"end":7592.778,"text":"但當時說好的照顧女性士官的權益過了4年退輔會直接跳票說專案補償欠缺法律依據那我最後想要請你們回答一下請問2020年5月開的協調會到了現在已經2024年了這件事情都沒有解決"},{"start":7593.419,"end":7605.67,"text":"我就問退府會在這件事情上面會不會持續的來協助86年女性軍事官在兩次軍改中間所發生的越推奉會少一萬的這個事情"},{"start":7608.912,"end":7629.906,"text":"請要回答有關於86年班領的比較少這個問題本會是秉持著照顧袍澤的立場一直在協助他們來處理但是有關於退休給付這個問題主要還是在軍方他核定多少錢了解那你們之後還會再開協調會嗎最後一個問題"},{"start":7632.828,"end":7654.437,"text":"還是就是這件事情就你今天可以告訴我們答案是他不會再修改了因為你總是要給86年期的這個女性士官他們等待了這麼久一個答案嘛所以我們就分兩個一個是說我們會繼續努力爭取一個是說我們已經跟行政院討論完了那決定就是如此給我一個回覆就好"},{"start":7657.432,"end":7657.452,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":7683.289,"end":7708.201,"text":"謝謝謝謝請回接下來進行詢問委員鄭天才委員時間4分鐘主委那個主席各位委員你要質詢我"},{"start":7711.084,"end":7737.795,"text":"委員很想讓你升官請主委主委請這位好主委好這個不合理的如果你剛才小心質詢的那個是不合理的就要去反應甚至要修法這法雖然不是你們的要建議修法好我們看這個"},{"start":7742.107,"end":7759.293,"text":"國軍退除役官兵輔導條例第7條規定防衛輔導退除役官兵就業所需用之土地政府各主管機關提供依法撥工輔導會作為一個使用這個退伍會我們就以臺東農場為例"},{"start":7769.55,"end":7796.257,"text":"這個自己經營的22%委託經營的60%點多了然後這些都是委託給個人企業徵政員那個退除官兵在那邊就業的非常非常的少好我們回到法例我是老公務員絕對是依法行政但是要請退府會這個主委這邊"},{"start":7798.308,"end":7816.587,"text":"國有財產法第39條規定非公用財產經撥為公用貨就是說剛才以退除役官兵輔導條例撥給這個退伍會因為為了要退除役官兵的就業所需用的土地那現在"},{"start":7817.657,"end":7844.723,"text":"用途廢止你沒有做就業之用而且你變更原定用途委託給出租了其實就是出租給企業以原定用途外還收了有了這個收益違反了國有產法39條的第一款第二款第三款然後我們看原住民族基本法第20條規定"},{"start":7846.323,"end":7874.64,"text":"政府承認原住民族土地的權利這法律的定的很清楚所以退伍會很多的土地違反了原住民族基本法違反了退伍會的條例國軍退除役官兵輔導條例也違反了國有財產法這個非常老的檔案原住委"},{"start":7875.618,"end":7901.998,"text":"許立農主委有知道這個人嗎?知道退府會許立農主委在民國77年5月15號答覆內政部吳博雄部長內政部吳博雄部長是根據原住民的建議然後他發文給這個親自發行給退府會主委"},{"start":7903.646,"end":7929.477,"text":"退府會主委施令榮發行給吳博雄部長說同意將現在沒有利用的土地46.5多公頃徹銷撥用歸還而且還多了一句話今後是安置的狀況若再有不惜公務利用之土地應當繼續辦理徹銷撥用"},{"start":7934.708,"end":7959.225,"text":"這個主委,你在軍中也很久了很多退出役官兵,現在的退出役官兵早期當然都安置,我們原住民都配合都配合,那現在沒有了現在去做農的很少了而且有的已經到天國去了所以就原住民族而言"},{"start":7961.533,"end":7986.226,"text":"退伍會習立榮主委的承諾．代表著中華民國政府．以延續民主的企業的承諾所以這樣大概一個部分我給你看一個最近的公文財政部113年3月14號發行給退伍會希望你們不是希望就是要依法依法依國有財產法"},{"start":7988.215,"end":8010.742,"text":"能夠防範我們不講多我們只就原住民本來就在使用一直在使用的因為撥給你們說但是你們沒有用那麼多我們還在使用的這些土地能夠依法增編為原住民保留地所以這個部分我們也要特別去再講一句話"},{"start":8012.386,"end":8016.029,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":8029.544,"end":8043.892,"text":"民主憲政也很多年了更應該要依法行政這個主委你回去的時候跟同仁好好的因為你剛上任所以這個部分要特別特別的"},{"start":8046.329,"end":8068.136,"text":"來請這個嚴主委這邊過去的立場不同沒有關係但是依法行政最重要好不好謝謝政經財委員然後部長那個主委回去演好謝謝謝謝政經財委員各位請回接下來進行詢答委員張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在請楊瓊英委員進行詢答"},{"start":8076.056,"end":8079.68,"text":"謝謝主席 楊卓銘發言 邀請我們主委主委請楊委員好"},{"start":8086.431,"end":8108.719,"text":"主任好,三班護病筆大家都非常的關心因為身體健康,我們龍總呢,佔了非常重要的一個角色所以因此呢,我們看到在醫療工會團體近期對於我們全台82家的醫院呢,超過500名的護理師做問卷調查當然我們也發現護病筆仍舊未達標"},{"start":8112.06,"end":8137.021,"text":"當然剛剛在北龍這個陳院長的答覆當中我們的平均值是7%多我們也給予肯定但是有一個問題要請主委注意也就是在我們所設的3所的這個農民總醫院12所的我們農民總醫院的分院那目前我們看到一個數字也就是離潮率"},{"start":8137.822,"end":8155.03,"text":"李超律是11%我也就這個問題提出也請我們這個相關的這個院所大家注意我們要怎麼樣能夠留住人才我剛剛有歡喜聽到陳院長說今年你們還會有200多位"},{"start":8155.23,"end":8155.851,"text":"主委您的看法"},{"start":8181.479,"end":8184.221,"text":"主委現在回答會讓我嚇一跳你要怎麼提高他們的待遇"},{"start":8201.569,"end":8230.199,"text":"報告委員我是九一保健處處長平均11%而且這個數字是往上升的那個是之前就是111年112年但是今年我們113年第一屆平均總院現在目前離職率大概是2.3%當然我們有一連關的措施薪水我們當然是很注意有時候就是跟著調整但是薪水並不是唯一的因素現在我們總院都"},{"start":8231.099,"end":8250.47,"text":"致力在改善整個職場的環境謝謝你所以你得到的訊息2點多吧這是這一季所以本席把這個離潮率加入你們在管控的這個因子我們一起加油好不好接下來本席要跟你討論的是從111年我們規劃這個辦理專業即職官兵專案徵才活動那這平均3年來你們媒介了79點多"},{"start":8260.915,"end":8285.794,"text":"不錯那透過了這樣子的一個機制你們發給了這個12個月的這個這個津貼來鼓勵留任職場這個就是我希望的好不容易進來之後我們必須不要讓他再離職那你要怎麼樣穩定他所以本席也給你結錄到目前4月份的時候呢你們大概是有3萬人左右"},{"start":8286.434,"end":8304.723,"text":"那本席在你的報告書當中我也看到一個訊息很好你說你們會比照美國跟韓國的做法跟國防部研議來建置軍職職能的這個基準喔還有你們要用軍職的專長來銜接民間的這個職業這樣子的一個對照系統這個本席非常贊成"},{"start":8312.807,"end":8313.067,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":8328.024,"end":8330.766,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":8354.318,"end":8359.121,"text":"所以我們下個月就會進一步去洽談什麼時候?下個月我們已經協調好就會跟他再談這件事情希望能夠繼續推動下去那將來如果這個因為我們每一年現在大概1萬5的退伍人潮那根據我們過往去協助他重返職場64%左右所以我們預計一年可以有將近1萬人9500到1萬人可以輔導他順利的回到民間職場"},{"start":8383.514,"end":8398.748,"text":"這個非常重要,主委,因為本席非常讚許這個方案,因為民間我再次重複,民間有很多專技人員,然後我們訓練的都是非常的井南有序的,是國家的"},{"start":8399.389,"end":8419.788,"text":"競爭力非常重要所以我們也期許你們預估一年在15000人的退役官兵你能夠媒介成功9500到10000進入到我們民間市場我也希望你們透過各個除了國防部談好之後透過各個縣市的公測會"},{"start":8421.169,"end":8445.538,"text":"他可以有很多的媒介大家直接介紹我們的民間這個公司好嗎達到一個善意的政策好嗎謝謝委員謝謝我們台南沒有公車會預算被議會砍掉了很多單位可以處理啦好謝謝好謝謝楊全英委員接下來我們進行詢問的委員是洪森漢委員"},{"start":8462.016,"end":8463.099,"text":"請嚴主委來主委請紅圍好"},{"start":8471.004,"end":8492.898,"text":"所以其實我們有很多來就讀中正裕校或者是三軍官校的學子那他過去可能他是因為這個家境貧窮或者是讀軍校包辦生活發花費也包括其實可能會有一些津貼可以來照顧家庭所以其實我們知道有很多這些我們的軍人是從15歲18歲就進入到軍人體系"},{"start":8497.821,"end":8514.111,"text":"後來成為榮民領終身奉這是很多軍人生命的軌跡所以我們可以看到這個軍旅生涯幾乎也就是他職業生涯的大半部分退伍就退休"},{"start":8515.712,"end":8532.93,"text":"那可是在現在徵募並行的狀況之下這個軍隊其實是需要大量這個服役4年到9年的這個短役期的官兵那請主委看一下一幕退伍會統計的資料最近3年退伍人員的比例服役10年以上的第一類"},{"start":8533.931,"end":8554.197,"text":"官兵大概36%平均年齡接近41歲服役4到9年的大概有64%平均年齡大概26歲所以不論是第一類或第二類其實就這個表上來看的話軍旅生涯恐怕不會是他們質押的最終戰甚至可能是他們的第一戰"},{"start":8555.777,"end":8575.588,"text":"這只是其中的一個階段所以這時候退輔會的就學跟就業的功能我覺得大家就會非常非常的期待那依照我們看的下現在的現行的法規在這個國軍借退官兵就業輔導措施實施要點裡面目前看起來只有在退伍前的前半年要接受職業訓練主委你覺得這樣夠嗎"},{"start":8578.608,"end":8594.879,"text":"時間太短了一點時間太短了一點嘛對不對所以其實我們看到有很多年輕人他不一定是不願意從軍但他們一想到或者從過去前人的例子裡面聽到說離開部隊要找下一份工作幾乎是從零開始"},{"start":8595.862,"end":8596.323,"text":"主委 不好意思"},{"start":8609.963,"end":8623.857,"text":"那我這下面重點來是我要跟主委討論我們關於軍事跟這個民間專長的轉換其實我們這邊在談的不是什麼新的新聞我們其實看到2022年國防部其實有一個這個軍職專長轉嫌民間職業對照的這個計畫這個計畫最後怎麼了"},{"start":8632.472,"end":8636.353,"text":"國防部軍職專長轉弦民間職業對照計畫從109年就跟國防部在談這件事情但是因為我們尊重國防部他因為有戰訓本務的一個考量還有其他的因素所以他就暫停"},{"start":8654.637,"end":8658.621,"text":"但是我們現在已經還持續在溝通對,我們就只講這個計畫後來失敗了"},{"start":8661.843,"end":8666.384,"text":"國防部公開表示,軍事專長與民間職業兩者屬性不同,無法順利轉弦及對照,後來計劃告終。這當然是因為國防部當時想很簡單的職業別對照,例如飛行員,我就是讓他去找變成是轉飛民航機"},{"start":8686.889,"end":8697.725,"text":"那如果你開軍卡的駕照你可以就去開民間的卡車這幾乎是非常非常直覺性的這樣子的對照那問題就來啦那你的野戰部隊你的裝甲兵要對到什麼"},{"start":8699.005,"end":8723.993,"text":"沒有人對照啊 對不對所以這是為什麼當時這個計畫其實很難成功的原因可是我現在要講的不是簡單的這個職業別的對照我其實想請主委參考一下其他部會有幾個我覺得值得參照的比方說在勞動部裡面我們看到這個職能基準的一覽表裡面其實它分為幾個層次它其實是把職能的內涵包括它的職能做了更進一步的分析跟探討"},{"start":8724.873,"end":8725.574,"text":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員：完整會議"},{"start":8743.015,"end":8768.789,"text":"他的職能的基礎第一個職責是可能是協調車隊來管控物流第二個是他的工作任務是要執行車隊管控任務那第三個是他下面也把他的知識跟技能給分析出來這不是只有勞動部這樣做包括經濟部也有IPAS包括教育部也有就職平台的U-CAN其實都採用這種細分的科學分析的方法"},{"start":8769.787,"end":8785.642,"text":"坦白說現在我們只有看到只有國防部沒有這樣做他們沒有把職能基礎仔細的細分給分類出來所以再加上軍隊其實本身就有它的封閉性所以外界根本就不知道每個官科到底在做什麼所以這個我要問主委"},{"start":8786.892,"end":8812.791,"text":"如果我們把其他部會相關的做法可以值得參考的我們現在都攤在眼前你覺得退輔會有哪些事情可以多做是 謝謝委員給我們指導我覺得這很有參考的價值現在最主要就是剛剛我們碰到的困難剛剛處長講的還有委員所發現的就是這一塊這是盲點那怎麼樣能夠突破參考剛剛林鄭月威的勞動部經濟部這個教育部他怎麼樣去把它細分一定有一些"},{"start":8813.832,"end":8816.376,"text":"主委你覺得你們會怎麼做?"},{"start":8829.954,"end":8857.38,"text":"我先想參考一下委員所提供的資料然後回去之後我們依據我們的屬性不同我們的特性不同但是怎麼樣跟民間這些有相同的地方能夠借鞋之後我們把它找出來所以我舉例來說假設今天是一個營長他這個退伍了以後如果他的履歷表上面他是寫我是戰車營營長今天你想像一個企業的老闆他看到履歷上面你是戰車營營長他一定想說我又沒有戰車給你開"},{"start":8860.087,"end":8872.731,"text":"可是如果你有辦法把他做出他的職能做出這樣子內涵的細分的時候你就會發現一個營長他要管理經營400人的生活演訓任務甚至他還要來管理很多戰車的維修調度"},{"start":8874.632,"end":8901.251,"text":"這裡面包括了領導力包括運輸管理包括人資其實有非常非常管理的專才在這裡面如果他的履歷可以清楚的協助他把這些事情都呈現上去恐怕其實對一個民間企業的老闆對於他的需求來說恐怕會大大的提升所以我們長期以來沒有協助我們的退伍軍人來推進這樣子的工作或這樣的分析坦白說我覺得這在行政上面是有很大的問題的"},{"start":8904.437,"end":8924.375,"text":"主委你剛上任我想提醒就了解其實當初之前在李文忠副主委的時候其實他有計畫找了專家的學者來做建立國軍的職能基準表那這個計畫其實是有的那我想問主委我們應該可以在這個計畫的基礎下面再往前推進吧可以"},{"start":8926.854,"end":8945.406,"text":"這個計劃第一個會往前推進第二個甚至我覺得應該要加速大力的推動主委應該也沒有問題吧是沒問題那主委我希望這個事情你們趕快做了一個先期的充足的準備以後那找其他的部會他們的專家學者或者他們的經驗我們把它建立好我覺得要去跟國防部一起來洽談這應該也沒有問題吧對我們再協調國防部"},{"start":8948.428,"end":8954.053,"text":"跟委員補充報告我們上個月已經陪同國防部專案人員我們已經去拜訪教育部勞動部跟那個經濟部這個相關的職能平台他們也都了解所以我們會持續去跟國防部來洽談那可不可以在下個會期前提出相關具體的明確的計畫我們要怎麼來執行這樣的計畫我就給大家一個新的氣象新的計畫新的格局局面吧"},{"start":8973.43,"end":8974.01,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員吳立華委員"},{"start":9011.923,"end":9014.885,"text":"謝謝主席有請嚴主委主委好主委好我們屏東有一個屏東榮總請問那是誰核定的委員是指經費核定行政院行政院核定那當時的行政院長是蘇院長"},{"start":9043.427,"end":9064.646,"text":"因為我在聯合新聞網有看到去年年底選舉期間的一則新聞當時我們的總統候選人賴清德總統他前往屏隆的時候他問在場的民眾說請問屏東榮總是誰核定的台下的民眾都回答蘇貞昌"},{"start":9067.668,"end":9086.239,"text":"所以當時賴總統就回說你們都把我忘記了那當年核定的行政院長如今他是我們中華民國的總統那為什麼我這樣子講其實對我們屏東人來講能夠多這麼棒的一個醫院其實是全民之福"},{"start":9087.139,"end":9113.235,"text":"但是呢我們的期待也很多我看到你們的專報其實退輔會也把醫院的工作視為是非常重要的一個工作那屏東榮總設立一周年的時候呢我們也去宣布這個訊息通過了衛福部教學醫院的評鑑為偏鄉地區的急重症醫療帶來了福音那我在這裡就是想要請教一下"},{"start":9113.775,"end":9131.216,"text":"因為我們從組織系統表裡面看到平融它有許多的科別那目前我如果以這個組織表看到它加總起來大概是40個整別但是這邊有一個龍泉分院"},{"start":9131.916,"end":9153.26,"text":"以前還沒有平榮來的時候它是屬於高雄榮總那這個榮權分院其實對我們偏鄉的原鄉原住民族人來講我們最常去最常用的就是這個榮權的分院那請教一下榮權分院它有多少個科別、政別"},{"start":9156.526,"end":9180.631,"text":"請彼龍院長跟您報告好 謝謝那報告委員目前彼龍總總院區總共有35個科別那我們都已經有全數開放那有一些所謂的診室呢像心臟科他有一些特別的門診所以診室看起來會比科別要來的多那剛剛委員講的沒有錯龍泉分院是我們一個非常重要的據點因為不要說是原鄉整個那個山區的榮麗龍圈都是我們照顧的範圍"},{"start":9183.252,"end":9183.472,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9201.708,"end":9228.004,"text":"院長是這樣子因為我們從平融他的一個官網每天凌晨的零時他都會有一個床位資訊的公開資料那我在這個地方有看到總床數以這個急性還有加護病房嬰兒病床加起來合計大約是300以6月5號來講那這個當中有沒有包含龍泉分院"},{"start":9229.053,"end":9231.494,"text":"主委也好院長也好你們有沒有算過空床率"},{"start":9247.094,"end":9269.81,"text":"報告委員我們現在呢原來在總院區的時候我們是有200當206床的時候呢我們的暫床率一度來到85那後來我們加到現在230床的時候呢我的那個暫床率只掉到60幾那這裡面當然就是說那我不知道我查的資料對不對齁因為我看到以平融來講他是核定629床是"},{"start":9272.392,"end":9288.81,"text":"那這樣空床率就很嚴重囉報告這個事實上是我們現在已經核准開設的是230加99那剛剛委員您提到的600多呢那沒有關係因為時間的關係院長我只是要提醒空床率的問題"},{"start":9289.751,"end":9316.848,"text":"因為我會來這邊質詢是來自於民眾的誠情關心那民眾我們看到的就是說他覺得空床率很高啦那我去查了一下數據也確實那他們會問說為什麼那當然我這邊拿到的資料訊息就是說像很多以前龍泉分院口碑非常好尤其他的骨科你應該知道還有他的夜間門診但是現在很多科都沒有夜間門診他們就會懷疑啊"},{"start":9321.191,"end":9336.147,"text":"是不是平榮來了之後偏鄉的看診能量就下降所以我希望這個部分是不是一個月內給我一個檢討的方案我們是擔心說你們是因為醫護人員不足所以不敢開"},{"start":9337.968,"end":9338.128,"text":"主席請主委"},{"start":9370.753,"end":9386.206,"text":"主委您擔任退輔會主委最主要任務是什麼主要的任務是服務的對象是我們的農民、農眷還有退出役官兵那針對救醫、救養、救學、救業還有服務照顧我們要接近所能去照顧他們"},{"start":9387.247,"end":9405.146,"text":"對,就是要對於軍人從功報勳的精神那照顧退出役官兵加強對於退出役官兵的安置跟照顧那我想請教你對於退役國軍士兵的家眷是不是退府會安置與照顧的範圍"},{"start":9406.499,"end":9432.33,"text":"只要是榮民榮眷我們都照顧相較於過去你擔任的職位是國防部長那對於現役士官兵的照顧比較多那你會在照顧現役上花很多心力嘛過去嘛然後針對現在已經退役或是已經退役的軍眷的關心那現在退府會主委那實際上你要花更多心力來關心嘛是的現在主要第一類第二類都要照顧"},{"start":9434.011,"end":9451.392,"text":"本席這次辦公室有接到一個陳情案我想請主委聽聽看合不合理因為這個陳情案其實也反映一個通案的狀況有一位早年退役的中將民國99年往生根據規定家屬可以選擇一半退縫大概是兩萬九千多元"},{"start":9452.213,"end":9476.824,"text":"那這位陳琦呢也不是過去年金改革時不斷被拿出來放大檢視的外配跟陸配他也非常感念國家一直以來對他們的照顧跟安置可是呢他後來陸續聽到有些過去他先生的老同僚或老部署離世他們生前是市官長校級軍官但是呢一卷所領的退縫卻是遠遠高於這位中將的遺孀的金額那"},{"start":9479.026,"end":9482.559,"text":"他這位陳其仁他覺得非常的費解啊主委你覺得這樣的情況是會發生的嗎"},{"start":9484.287,"end":9512.54,"text":"報告委員這個案你是不是可以提供我們再把它弄清楚事實上我們已經有提供了我就是把大概情形讓主委知道一下我只問你覺得合不合理這種狀況作為一個中將退役結果他現在發現說其他的就是士官長或是其他校級的一些幹部他們已領的這個所謂的退縫反而比較高你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":9513.826,"end":9538.329,"text":"如果是這樣的話我是覺得不合理的對嘛那其實這個是因為我們也問過退府會啦退府會給的回答是說2018年年金改革造成那對於修法後才領取遺屬年金的當事人變成是有較高的撫恤金額變成為溯及既往所以形成了這個反差那年金改革的時候其實過去領比較高退縫的當事人就認為溯及既往是合理的"},{"start":9538.709,"end":9558.518,"text":"但現在過去零比較少因為制度改動可以提升金額卻又沒有溯及既往就會形成剛剛主委你自己也覺得不太合理的狀況那我非常感謝主委你剛剛已經講到說這個狀況你也覺得不合理就是說實質上這個就像主委你自己這個作為中華民國二級上將你也發現說當然"},{"start":9560.599,"end":9584.427,"text":"過去我們不管是過去現在國軍對於我們中華民國的保家衛國的奉獻其實是一樣是讓我們非常感謝的但是如果是因為我們制度調整你造成今天這不合理的現象我認為退府會是有責任去把這個不合理現象改正而且我也說實在話影響的人其實相當有限影響人相當有限所以"},{"start":9584.847,"end":9606.447,"text":"就算說今天因為一般來講我們講說對於人民不利通常是不溯及既往可是一般對人民有利的部分其實一般來講有些做法是會溯及既往的那特別是對我們的有軍功的國軍將領的照顧希望主委能夠把這個案子放在心上我們會持續跟退府會溝通好不好對我們在了解OK好謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":9608.468,"end":9626.812,"text":"謝謝羅志祥委員各位請回接下來進行尋答委員林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在"},{"start":9629.873,"end":9642.865,"text":"已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員林益君委員李博義委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報相關機關除與委員約定時間外"},{"start":9652.113,"end":9670.981,"text":"與兩週內來答覆相關的詢答委員：口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供令約定期限者依其所定這個原主委今天人緣不錯所以本日會議到此結束我們散會"}]}},{"id":"15983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15983","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea558f108d180b0e1b6425655b8120616f3be8d109af184be4a5d7c666ced088265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-05T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T17:37:00+08:00","duration":32820,"影片長度":"09:07:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 - 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:2519.13,"end":2540.675,"text":"交通產業發展國際事務司檢任基政鄭捷遠公路級運輸組副組長戴邦芳中華郵政股份有限公司協理陳棟良"},{"start":2545.253,"end":2561.776,"text":"農業部農業金融署組長李怡心、農業發展水土保持署組長蔡秀婉、經濟部發展署副組長莊文玲、"},{"start":2571.793,"end":2574.795,"text":"財政部稅務署專門委員蔡夢珠、勞動部勞力發展署專門委員黃偉成、專門委員李紀維、外交部條約法律司專門委員黃仁良。"},{"start":2602.605,"end":2621.774,"text":"大陸委員會法政處專門委員陳振興、港澳盟帳處專門委員蔡碧嘉、行政院人事總署主編人力處專門委員曾永芳、"},{"start":2635.285,"end":2644.909,"text":"行政院主席總署公務預算處專門委員秋碧珠基金預算處專門委員戴琴芳"},{"start":2661.072,"end":2665.715,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":2682.566,"end":2700.538,"text":"提案委員吳清明、王美惠委員、陳亭惠委員、林黛華委員、張家俊委員、黃珊珊委員以順序先來的黃珊珊委員做提案說明。"},{"start":2711.174,"end":2724.526,"text":"主席、還有各位立委同仁以及各位現場的官員我想打詐專法是我們非常樂見行政院提出來尤其是在現在詐騙橫行的時候那目前為止從2萬多件的詐騙案到3萬多件從40多億的財損到80多億所以"},{"start":2729.611,"end":2746.867,"text":"打詐的狀況是越打越詐表示我們整個打詐的成效並沒有很好所以行政院提出了打詐的專法那原來的打詐辦公室現在終於由內政部來接手我想整個案子應該會加強所謂的打詐的功力"},{"start":2747.627,"end":2771.935,"text":"臺灣民眾黨所提出的打詐專法有三個重點除了院版的部分我們還做了三個修正也希望增加金融制裁的制度還有希望有關貨運業者他們的貨到付款給他一定的責任另外針對有詐欺犯前科者我們希望加強行政的管制那第一點我們在打詐制度裡面新增了目標性的制裁制度那這個是針對"},{"start":2773.575,"end":2774.295,"text":"責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任"},{"start":2799.648,"end":2810.716,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案：立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內"},{"start":2822.424,"end":2845.653,"text":"收獲人確認貨品沒有問題再將貨款交付給托運人透過身份確認以及把錢多扣幾天的方式讓受詐騙者有更高的機會把詐騙的金額能夠追回第三個部分針對詐欺犯罪曾經有經過有罪判決確定的我們希望給他更高的金融管制比照現行的洗錢防治法第15條之二"},{"start":2846.953,"end":2868.386,"text":"人頭賬戶的管制我們希望對這些已經有罪判決確定的人也應該有一定的金融管制否則這些人他可能喚醒或者是將來解除管制之後他又繼續從事詐騙的行為我們相信行政管制對於嚇阻犯罪也有一定的效力另外就是打詐專法有很多的程序問題"},{"start":2869.326,"end":2880.602,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":2886.67,"end":2900.493,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":2908.715,"end":2917.399,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":2934.559,"end":2941.111,"text":"好謝謝黃珊珊委員的提案說明那下一位我們請王美惠委員提案說明"},{"start":2951.243,"end":2977.971,"text":"主席,我先來講我們宗教團體自然的名義等級的不動產處理的戰性條例,裡面宗教團體的財產有信徒,有的過去,我們的制度都沒有多轉,所以在這幾天兩天前,我們立法之後,讓宗教團體可以站回來因緩和,"},{"start":2979.191,"end":2987.216,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":3004.665,"end":3011.49,"text":"部委說,我們要多努力,協助宗教團體來栽贊政績與團體的命,分主、修緩、內政、大開的方向都一定同意也共識。"},{"start":3022.037,"end":3028.52,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":3047.13,"end":3063.043,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":3064.224,"end":3078.884,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":3081.67,"end":3087.615,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案 。 審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案 。"},{"start":3098.843,"end":3111.406,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":3121.289,"end":3138.1,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":3143.723,"end":3153.63,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":3174.513,"end":3179.577,"text":"好 謝謝王美蕙委員的提案說明那下一位我們陳亭蕙委員提案說明陳亭蕙委員有兩案"},{"start":3186.785,"end":3207.015,"text":"謝謝主席我想我先針對宗教團體以自然人民益登記不動產處理暫行條例這個部分來提案做修正在第5條的部分因為我們有過去的時空背景也就是說宗教團體不動產建民登記的情形是非常普遍的"},{"start":3207.415,"end":3219.464,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":3229.951,"end":3244.337,"text":"綜藝團體因故將不動產登記在住持或是相關人士的名下,但是一旦登記名義的當事者死亡之後,就會產生了繼承人的增產問題,所以我們如果依照"},{"start":3245.857,"end":3262.223,"text":"統計目前有借自然人民益登記不動產的宗教團體總共有2476家那目前基本上已經申請的有533家佔了我們百分之二十一點五不動產的比數是2001"},{"start":3264.164,"end":3286.878,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一筆,以完成的總共有三百五十六筆,佔比是百分之十四點三,不動產的筆數總共是一千三百五十七筆,這個基本上我們內政部都有資料顯示,所以如果依照這個比例來講,大家都想要辦,可是必須要有一些程序跟資料。"},{"start":3287.879,"end":3302.512,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐�"},{"start":3315.783,"end":3315.983,"text":"負責負責"},{"start":3337.182,"end":3341.944,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件,"},{"start":3356.249,"end":3372.522,"text":"我們都有協助過中央政府跟地方政府說真的他們對於我們這個暫行條例更名的部分大家的見解也有很多不一樣都必須開了很多次會所以我認為如果在這樣的一個狀況之下"},{"start":3374.463,"end":3401.488,"text":"我們必須給予我們的當事者、申請的當事者能夠有一個寬容的時間也就是說在行政程序上如何如果沒有辦法在兩年內完成然後我們還可以協助所以我們現在所看到的資料顯示我們的宗教團體加速不足15%所以有很大改善的空間"},{"start":3402.782,"end":3409.807,"text":"所以本席提案修法要把申請年限延長兩年也就是從111年6月10號開始到113年6月9號為止的這個時間繼續延長到115年6月9號為止這是我這一次在這個"},{"start":3425.457,"end":3446.022,"text":"宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案的一個修正吼那第二個部分是打詐專法因為其實選前跟選後我們在敗票的時候基本上得到民眾最大最大的反應常常把我們攔下來"},{"start":3447.282,"end":3469.412,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條"},{"start":3474.735,"end":3494.262,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":3495.783,"end":3518.65,"text":"所以我們一定要一次把打詐專法把現在所有的問題也就是打詐無法修法之後面臨各個單位沒有辦法去執行的在這一次打詐專法當中做一個最完整的修法也就是把所有匯集很多民眾陳情的新型態的詐騙類型"},{"start":3520.791,"end":3533.307,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件,"},{"start":3538.453,"end":3555.835,"text":"所以這次庭妃所修的打詐專法面向有包括強化金融防詐措施電信防詐措施數位經濟也就是網路的防詐措施在各個面向的源頭防詐機制也是希望"},{"start":3556.435,"end":3571.725,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條"},{"start":3584.833,"end":3584.953,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":3616.636,"end":3630.827,"text":"好,謝謝陳亭妃委員的提案說明。那我們現在請我們內政部長,我們是劉世芳,劉世芳部長。因為部長有兩案,他說一併簡短報告好不好?好,謝謝。"},{"start":3642.142,"end":3648.991,"text":"謝謝吳釗偉還有各位內政委員會的委員以及大院的委員非常謝謝今天在內政委員會召開的會議裡面讓我們有機會來跟大家報告一下兩個法案的修正一個就是"},{"start":3656.34,"end":3672.428,"text":"是新司法裡面最重要的一個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案。另外一個是宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理戰刑條例第五條條文的修正草案的報告。那以下我代表內政部來跟各位委員做一個很簡單的報告。"},{"start":3674.454,"end":3686.924,"text":"首先非常感謝各位委員對於打擊詐欺犯罪的高度重視跟關心那我們報告如下請各位委員可以指導第一個為了防制跟打擊詐騙的危害我國自111年6月起實施的打詐綱領分別從試詐也就是宣導教育面、堵詐、電信網路面還有阻詐"},{"start":3695.271,"end":3706.636,"text":"章款流向面以及懲詐、偵查打擊面等四大面向著手、奠定各項政策的基礎方針並且由行政院組成跨部會的打詐國家隊攜手來協力共同應處有關詐欺犯罪的問題。"},{"start":3711.838,"end":3732.72,"text":"但是近年來,詐欺犯罪朝著系統化、專業化、還有組織化跟境外化方向來發展。犯罪的形態以及技術不斷的演進,手法日新月異。形成新形態的犯罪產業鏈,但嫌不當利用金融、電信及網路的便捷性跟廣佈性,滲透到民眾的日常生活。"},{"start":3733.26,"end":3748.927,"text":"進行無差別的犯罪除了造成個人的財產損害也產生社會上的不信任感跟影響整體金融秩序並且嚴重的灼傷我國的國際形象有強力打擊與防制的必要面對詐欺犯罪的問題行政院團隊通盤檢討我國的現行法規除了收嚴外國的法令策略跟網羅各界意見以外強化打詐作為打擊詐欺集團保護犯罪被害人為重點"},{"start":3762.312,"end":3773.543,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":3784.694,"end":3805.561,"text":"應處目前詐欺犯罪的相關問題,填補現行防制跟打擊詐欺犯罪法令不足,輔助新世代打擊詐欺策略的行動綱理的執行跟回應執行相關工作的需求之外,從上游來強化金融、電信跟網路各面向的防詐作為,下游來嚴懲詐欺的犯罪。"},{"start":3807.382,"end":3825.174,"text":"並且建構保護詐欺犯罪被害人機制形成綿密而且體系完整的防詐網路就本條例的草案總共有58條摘述如下第一個金融面一、賦予金融機構電子支付虛擬資產服務的事業或人員防詐義務第二、簡化警示帳戶或是帳號內被害人的款項返還程序"},{"start":3832.279,"end":3859.321,"text":"二、電信面的部分在明文規範核發轉讓電信門號要件落實查核身份跟登錄賦予電信業者防詐義務及進行管控的權利並且限制涉詐電信門號申辦者再申請門號的數量第二在查核國際漫遊服務使用人身份及資料防制該服務遭受濫用並且對有違反我國法令的嫌疑的特定境外電話事業拒絕提供國際漫遊服務"},{"start":3862.043,"end":3887.102,"text":"第三在網路面方面依要求網路廣告平台業者應該檢證、驗證、委託、刊播以及出資者的身份並且訂定詐欺防制計畫對涉及詐欺廣告應採取處置經過通知其平台所刊登或播送的內容有涉及詐欺犯嫌情實者應先行限制接取、瀏覽或移除與詐欺犯罪有關的內容"},{"start":3888.263,"end":3915.056,"text":"二、賦予第三方支付服務業者、電商業者及網路連線遊戲業者義務第三、賦予網路廣告平台業者、電商業者及網路連線遊戲業者保存並且配合調取相關資料的義務第四、建立對違反義務之網路廣告平台業者流量管理措施停止解析或限制接取制度明定對詐欺網站停止解析或限制接取的要件"},{"start":3916.196,"end":3939.557,"text":"詐欺犯罪行為為當前高發的犯罪行為嚴重強害我國民眾財產安全執行防制及打擊工作刻不容緩本條例並備受社會各界所期許對於未來防制跟打擊詐欺犯罪具有莫大的效益懇請各位委員支持讓本條例能夠早日完成立法以上報告請各位委員指教"},{"start":3940.217,"end":3964.209,"text":"第二有關於宗教團體跟自然人民益登記不動產處理的戰刑條例第五條的部分我簡要跟各位委員做一下報告感謝各位委員在內政業務推動上的關注跟指導今天委員會裡面審查有關張家俊委員21人吳啟明委員等19人王美惠委員等17人林戴華委員等18人陳亭妃委員等16人所提的宗教團體"},{"start":3965.109,"end":3989.749,"text":"以自然人名義登記不動產處理戰刑條例以下檢證本條例第五條修正草案共計五案本部列席報告跟備詢有關於委員所提到的像張家俊委員吳祁銘委員陳廷珂委員所提到將申請期限由兩年延長為四年王美惠委員的版本是由兩年延長為一定期限那一定期限由本部定之"},{"start":3990.209,"end":4016.077,"text":"林大華委員希望由本兩年延長為七年,僅將本部意見說明如下,敬請委員參考。為了減少宗教團體構制或受政不動產,藉用自然的名義辦理所有權登記,衍生了私權糾紛,甚至淪為私人所有,耗費大量在行政、司法跟社會的成本。本條例經過總統在111年6月8日公布施行,其第五條規定,"},{"start":4017.037,"end":4030.995,"text":"宗教團體申請不動產權利歸屬審任的期限為本條例施行之日起兩年內預期不受理也就是鼓勵宗教團體儘速申請經過內政部統計到今年5月抵止即有606家"},{"start":4032.436,"end":4044.341,"text":"即有608家宗教團體已經提出不動產權利歸屬的審任申請在其申請之不動產中已經有556筆不動產完成更名登記1377筆不動產完成限制登記第二鑒於本條例規定的申請期限即將於這個月的11日也就是6月11日屆滿"},{"start":4054.765,"end":4072.926,"text":"近來有部分宗教團體表示,因為特殊狀況,在文件資料準備上需耗費較多時間,因此建議延長申請期限。本部秉持為宗教服務的一貫立場,支持延長申請期限,以充分保障宗教團體的權益。"},{"start":4074.427,"end":4094.136,"text":"經查各委員提案的修正版本延長的期限各有不同本部尊重大院多數的決議也將配合修正的結果在延長申請的期限內積極來協助宗教團體辦理相關不動產權利歸屬的審任作業以保障宗教團體的權益以上檢要報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝我們內政部我們劉思安部長的報告那現在我們"},{"start":4104.048,"end":4120.351,"text":"其他的報告單位請我們委員自行參列並刊登公報。現在我們進行審打。委員審打前,原列做以下幾點先告。本會委員發言時間4分鐘,必要延長1分鐘。非本會委員4分鐘。上午10點30分截止發言登記。"},{"start":4133.589,"end":4158.381,"text":"本會本會的會議處理就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有因為不好意思因為今天登記發言的人數太多了所以我們就定位4分鐘第一位我們登記發言是巧慧因為巧慧委員說時間不過啦我可以讓你多講一下謝謝"},{"start":4168.251,"end":4168.992,"text":"主席劉慈芳、劉部長劉慈芳、劉部長"},{"start":4186.499,"end":4186.919,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":4200.899,"end":4203.262,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":4217.679,"end":4217.979,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":4236.77,"end":4241.632,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐"},{"start":4255.356,"end":4265.89,"text":"我那一次真的非常非常的生氣我想說我一定要來研究這種詐騙式包括要怎麼處理所以第一個我先上網看了一下說大家是什麼經驗談怎麼處理部長你猜猜看網站告訴我的處理方式是什麼"},{"start":4270.416,"end":4272.117,"text":"綜藝網站上的解方叫我打電話給你選區的立法委員通知"},{"start":4286.329,"end":4307.11,"text":"警政署 叫警政署派警察去抓人 雙署長 這就是幫勞工的啦 看到詐騙的時候卡在胃口 你的立法委員啦 我心想我本身就是立法委員欸所以我那天真的是 你去查應該也有記錄 我真的打電話給警政署的聯絡人說我現在接到這個包裹要怎麼辦 好 所以部長我今天想要跟你討論的是"},{"start":4308.391,"end":4321.562,"text":"我想用白話文請你用白話文跟社會各界解釋我們今天如果訂立了這個專法以後平常民眾遇到的詐騙簡訊、一頁式廣告甚至是網路上面常常會有這種名人社團邀請你參加投資炒股甚至現在最新的黃元勳社團都已經出來了"},{"start":4330.55,"end":4330.59,"text":"檢訊部分電話檢訊"},{"start":4346.73,"end":4355.717,"text":"哪幾條可以用到?所以我的問題可以被解決了嗎?新的法條哪幾條可以用到?對啊!新的法條啊!我們今天不是要討論立法嗎?對啊!所以我要確認的就是過去這一些沒有辦法被解決的問題因為這部專法的出現之後可以有解或可以預防了那這部法我才支持得下去啊!是!謝謝委員的指教在我們所提供的資訊是在第14條到26條"},{"start":4371.408,"end":4378.551,"text":"十四部分嘛就是我們今天電信防詐措施16到24條是這個專章的部分是的所以呢這有14到26之後我們的電話簡訊詐騙部分會怎麼樣因為我們可以呃"},{"start":4386.885,"end":4410.997,"text":"國內的話其實應該就是本來就可以抓了嘛那我們今天訂的這個部分其實就是針對大家一直在說的境外的部分境外的部分嘛 對不對境外的部分要怎麼處理就是免除他國際漫遊是國際我是不是可以請我們局長來可以可以可以可以可以就請對報告委員那這個如果境外電話我們目前來講都有先先過濾那這個法律就有特別規定20條可以切斷對高風險的過濾高風險的過濾"},{"start":4415.387,"end":4444.264,"text":"高風險的國際漫遊,我可以直接切斷它,不會再繼續發送。然後如果是預防面呢?預防面其實我們有申請的時候,我怎麼...我對這法條看起來已經比你們還要熟悉了。這還有預防面嘛,預防面的話就申請的部分現在開始,因為現在很多的這個電信詐騙,我們今天要處理的就是,很多都是用電話卡嘛,尤其是預付卡的部分嘛。所以未來我們是不是依照這個法條,申請就要有實名制電話卡的部分,"},{"start":4445.805,"end":4470.725,"text":"而且如果是你轉移這個卡片的話也要重新核對跟登錄這是規定在15和16條是不是這樣所以這是第一個電話簡訊部分今天新法下去有加嚴的部分再來第二個部分的話是剛剛所說到的這個一夜市廣告網站上面的部分如果這不是刑事局的部分不是警政署的部分數位部會要回答我也沒有問你一夜市廣告的部分在新法訂立之後有可以討論嗎有可以加強嗎"},{"start":4473.647,"end":4477.577,"text":"我一定要知道可以解決問題這部法才有存在的價值嘛。"},{"start":4483.53,"end":4505.149,"text":"可以還是不可以處理?報告委員關於那個一夜市網告目前我們跟數位詐騙嘛對數位詐騙的部分我們現在遇到的主要有三個問題就是有些這種仿冒名人的廣告舉這個例子來講我們已經知道他已經是預備要犯罪但是他還沒有犯罪對這個就是我之前很難找的一部分他還沒有犯罪嘛"},{"start":4505.669,"end":4526.512,"text":"對那這時候呢我們會政府我們如果發現我們要通知他要下架的時候他通常動作很慢那再來呢因為很多這種那個網路廣告品牌是跨國的公司像是Meta、像Google沒錯那他們在台灣就是說他們常常不受理那甚至還有一些境外的網路廣告公司在台灣根本沒有分公司"},{"start":4526.932,"end":4527.952,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":4544.58,"end":4551.529,"text":"這就是我們在第三章的部分數位經濟防詐措施一整章嘛我看到你們現在的規範是從網路平台業者都要加強落地管理實名管理然後去刊登廣告的人"},{"start":4560.08,"end":4574.066,"text":"也要求他們要提供更多的資訊來供平台業者審核。甚至連這個人要刊登的該則廣告、單則廣告都必須要有聯絡的方式可以出現。對不對?是有這些部分嗎?"},{"start":4576.052,"end":4598.807,"text":"是吼?是,在27條到33條之間27條到33條我想是這樣因為真的質詢的時間是有限的那我們等一下會進行逐條我想法律是死板的啦是生硬的但是我們要處理的是日常人民要解決的問題所以我應該等一下逐條的時候也會希望你們就可以像這樣的方式我遇到的詐騙簡訊因為這次的修法能不能夠被解決我遇到的一夜市廣告社群上面的詐騙廣告"},{"start":4604.451,"end":4616.381,"text":"有沒有辦法因為這次的專法而解決是哪幾條我希望等一下在逐條的時候都可以用這樣的方式來討論讓民眾能夠真正理解國家對他們的保障這樣可以吧好 謝謝謝謝感謝蘇喬惠委員、咱家張煌祿委員"},{"start":4629.641,"end":4629.661,"text":"副長"},{"start":4640.399,"end":4660.197,"text":"其實這一次我們要修這個打詐制法我們其實就是要杜絕這個詐騙那我想請問一下其實這一次的打詐我們騙集了大概5個跨部會那我們這個跨部會如何能夠去順暢的去協調去運作"},{"start":4663.481,"end":4689.14,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢這就是我們現在推出所謂的打詐四法以內政部所主導的話是這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例但是還有包括洗錢防治法還有柯真法還有通訊保障監察法一定要這四個法同時連動而且把裡面的法條各個的環環相扣全部都扣上去的話才能夠解決我們剛剛各位委員所垂詢的碰到所謂的各種不同樣態的新的詐欺犯罪的防制"},{"start":4691.03,"end":4717.864,"text":"我先請問這個我們這次裡面有寫到說一定規模的網路廣告平台業者在台區設立代理人並配合防詐義務違則最高可罰2500萬如果情節嚴重會被封網一定規模是什麼樣的規模才叫一定規模"},{"start":4719.004,"end":4747.816,"text":"報告委員目前我們關於一定規模基本上我們會首先我們會參考那個歐盟的做法歐盟的做法是人口的10%作為標準那如果一個網路廣告平台他的活躍使用者數目超過10%的話那個歐盟他們那邊就會開始做控管但是因為台灣的人口數比較少經濟規模也比較小所以那個10%我們初步的研判可能是稍微"},{"start":4749.417,"end":4753.199,"text":"稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍稍"},{"start":4771.332,"end":4785.316,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":4792.233,"end":4792.313,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":4812.406,"end":4812.866,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":4828.393,"end":4842.441,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、�"},{"start":4843.542,"end":4869.725,"text":"我真的不相信我為什麼要特別問這個你知道嗎現在的詐騙打電話的越來越少了啦幾乎都是網路比較多啦那我們如何從一開頭就把它遏止我相信這是民眾想要的啦等到他被騙了然後再去報案我覺得那太晚了啦應該是把所有有可能的從源頭遏止啊是不是應該這樣啊"},{"start":4871.744,"end":4897.084,"text":"是,報告委員是。是嗎?啊,是的話,如果你說,你看你剛剛說10%這樣子,你們覺得有沒有有點太離譜了一點,民眾可以接受嗎?因為,報告委員,因為現在網路的生態,就是說,那個一家網路廣告平台,它如果說開始做起來的話,其實很快就會超過那個人口的10%,像是Meta,像是Google,像是Line,它其實它的會員數,"},{"start":4898.385,"end":4904.567,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":4913.872,"end":4939.913,"text":"這是我們的了解。是啦!那你這樣子反而我剛講一個重點你如果發現了這根本就是可能是詐騙了你就是應該第一時間把他遏止了啊!對不對!是不是我們的目標是這樣啊!對不對!那結果你還讓他有成長的機會我覺得這一點不要說我覺得我聽不下去我覺得全台灣的民眾也不會支持吧!"},{"start":4940.788,"end":4952.746,"text":"是 了解委員的意思那現在其實對我們台灣政府來講最最難管理的事實上是一些跨國的網路平台那因為這個跨國網路平台我們沒有比較難去處罰他們"},{"start":4955.686,"end":4979.062,"text":"我知道啦所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題你又要跟民眾講說我們打詐釋法要怎樣怎樣結果你現在你今天的現在的回答又讓人家覺得說哇好像很困難啊怎麼樣怎麼樣因為我覺得看不出來政府的決心我完全看不出來政府的決心將近一半的民眾民調顯示出來對這個詐騙是非常痛惡深惡"},{"start":4983.789,"end":5008.829,"text":"那我們政府在這個情況打詐是法你其他的很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下我覺得這一點啊你應該要把它補起來不然我跟你講啦內政部齁要等到人家報案才可以處理的話我覺得都已經被騙了這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦我覺得這一點你們應該要齁反正等一下還會討論法條我覺得這一點你們要想一想如何去處理啊"},{"start":5010.548,"end":5034.767,"text":"報告委員我想我們是政府是相當有決心的但是在法條上面的如果有檢討改進的空間的話我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話永遠是沒有辦法往這個打擊犯罪的上面著手那很多牽涉到的法令不同如果認為說以目前的民意來講的話願意支持打詐司法趕快通過讓他可以先上路其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步"},{"start":5035.75,"end":5048.186,"text":"我當然知道啦齁,但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分,我們等一下再來討論看要怎麼處理啦,好不好。好,謝謝,感謝張鴻祿委員。我們現在劉希田委員。"},{"start":5061.872,"end":5065.696,"text":"謝謝主席、部長跟這個通傳委員會。有請。"},{"start":5081.024,"end":5109.415,"text":"部長早安今天要請教針對這個詐欺罪犯危害防制條例今天討論其中一個條文的一個問題當然也是大家很關心的問題也就是說目前詐騙集團大部分都是買那種國外的SIM卡或黑莓卡那不一定要做實名制登記然後常常拿著卡進來用漫遊的機制來做詐騙這是一個重點打擊那看到法條裡面有寫針對所謂的高風險國外電信事業要做列管這樣一個工作"},{"start":5109.795,"end":5113.681,"text":"那我現在第一個問題是如何來認定這個事業是高風險的電信事業?委員報告"},{"start":5118.339,"end":5142.117,"text":"目前的話在國際漫遊卡這個部分因為它是一個國際漫遊商務契約所以在運作上面其實在我們國內的話就好像我們去國外一樣其實我們買國外的漫遊卡的部分大概它是D4它是開的啦所以您的那個意見我知道就是說就高豐富園部分的話目前的話原則上我們已經跟200多個國家大概都有簽署200多個業者大概都有簽署這樣的國際漫遊協議"},{"start":5143.698,"end":5151.324,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":5169.799,"end":5186.112,"text":"管理比較相對鬆散,然後你不太好溯源,就叫高風險,那這樣子的業者有沒有,大概占全部業者的比例大概是多少?有沒有算過嗎?大部分的國家其實不一定都有實名制,但是拿來做犯罪的其實在我們165這邊的統計上面,因為它會慢慢的會增加,那根據民眾的報案以及165這邊所給我們的這些情資,那將來的話,因為在台灣裡面有授權,"},{"start":5195.06,"end":5205.685,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":5223.493,"end":5243.401,"text":"既然是這樣,也就是說影響範圍如果不大的話,那我就認為法條的這個標準跟管控有加嚴的必要。將來這一塊的話,我們會把我們的標準也會跟內政部這邊討論過後,我們會公告,讓我們的業者也可以跟國外的業者,就是說你們要發行預備卡的時候,麻煩你們要做好這些事情。沒有,你先聽我把問題講完嘛,好不好。"},{"start":5245.642,"end":5272.453,"text":"現在我們的草案針對所謂的外國高風險電信事業提供的漫遊服務嘛就要現在要加入所謂的入境檢查嘛也就是說你要有入境紀錄我才能認可是你這個人要使用這個漫遊而不是拿來做詐騙之用嘛對不對那你們現在法條裡面寫的管控機制叫輸入護照號碼我現在接下來問的問題是只寫護照號碼會不會有依然被冒充的問題因為既然這一群人是職業的犯罪集團你只用護照號碼做管控我認為是不夠的"},{"start":5273.413,"end":5282.203,"text":"譬如說我們網路上論壇辦會員現在都有身份證製造產生器你會不會隨便一搞然後一填進去他是預設開放還是我要審核過後才開放?你現在機制的設計是怎麼樣?我們應該這麼說現在的這些拿來作為"},{"start":5290.251,"end":5308.382,"text":"懲罪犯罪這些電信服務啊他其實是用量啊用量來掩蓋他的這個犯行啊所以我們現在所處理的其實就是盡量的把他的這個量的減少我不否認說冒名這件事情很難哦完全杜絕但是用冒名來作為犯罪的這種這種方式我們盡量把它減少掉"},{"start":5309.343,"end":5324.504,"text":"我現在擔心的就是說因為他比如說我剛剛講的身份證製造產生器他搞不好是用大量生成的方式反而造成你執法的困擾所以既然高風險的電競事業的數量就不要討論我高風險的電競事業如果數量不多對不對你乾脆就做零貴查核"},{"start":5325.245,"end":5346.736,"text":"我的主張是你乾脆就做林桂茶盒,對不對,因為既然只有這一家的特殊的麥芽卡,你要講,那你就請這一家來跟國內借街的電信事業來做實名制茶盒,你這樣就絕對可以把量降下來,我這樣的說法你同意嗎?在實務上不太容易執行,原因是因為它不是只有一門兩門,它是要非常多的數量,而且拿來做犯罪的不是大多數人,是極少數人。"},{"start":5348.337,"end":5366.145,"text":"所以我們用極少數人的犯罪行為來造成國外旅客以及台胞的不方便我覺得在俗物上更要講一些所以我剛剛第一個問題問你就是說被列為高風險定性事件是多數還少數嗎你現在講就只有一家或兩家對不對表示國外的旅客你做合理的揭示就好了嘛"},{"start":5366.325,"end":5387.61,"text":"也就是說來台灣的旅客應該要使用有實名制系統的漫遊服務就不會受到影響你這樣是不是把旅客的影響降到最低可是相對來講你想要鑽漏洞的人你是不是門關得比較緊我覺得應該在兩個之間去做平衡啦如果說假設我用我的方法的這種能夠有效的來防堵的話我不需要用造成大家都不方便的方法來做防堵"},{"start":5387.83,"end":5413.949,"text":"沒關係這在法條討論的時候我們會再請你好好說明因為針對第一個這個比例到底是多少會影響到多少人如果這個比例是低的影響的人不多那你管控的標準就高嘛你就讓他實名制辦理會好過你用單純護照號碼去處理因為護照號碼他搞不好用別的技術就破解掉了這個我們在技術上再跟委員報告好不好到底哪一個方法會給答案待會是法條上來做一下討論好這第一個問題好這個謝謝NCC那再請一下警政署署長再一分鐘就好"},{"start":5418.015,"end":5418.155,"text":"副委員長"},{"start":5437.54,"end":5458.765,"text":"那我現在很擔心的是刑事警察我最近跟一些基層的刑事警察好朋友去做了座談他們講說這個去年天下雜誌也刊登過一篇報導寫說第一線刑警的心聲是現在每天泡在垃圾詐騙案麻痺到只想結案那當然這就是我們要修訂打詐事法的初衷這我同意的但是我希望在修訂法院初衷前我也要求內政部要求警政署"},{"start":5459.886,"end":5480.621,"text":"針對辛苦的刑警我們該給予適合的溫暖現在全台的刑警缺額有300位那其中我們認為問題出在續獎制度的不合理什麼叫續獎制度的不合理呢刑警只有辦刑案才能夠激功加獎比如說這個秘密刑警經10個月埋伏破獲雲林製毒工廠瓦解毒品供應網"},{"start":5481.181,"end":5481.521,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":5501.817,"end":5515.003,"text":"審判刑事案件的刑警多一些溫暖,鼓勵這些基層在打擊詐騙的這一群警察,給他們多一點溫暖,可以嗎?可以。我們會回去做這個...續講制度的檢討,大概多少時間之內可以提出一個方案?上個月好不好?"},{"start":5518.499,"end":5539.44,"text":"三個月短,三個月會不會太久了,只是續獎制度這件事而已。還是三個月你要給加幾的話,那三個月。一個月好了,一個月。一個月,好不好。那一個月之內,針對刑警的續獎制度,提出一件改善方案,給他們一點溫暖,也改善刑警缺額的問題,可以嗎?好,可以。好,謝謝。部長、組長辛苦了,謝謝。好,謝謝。我們感謝牛西庭委員、我們家蔓依珍委員。"},{"start":5549.032,"end":5550.033,"text":"謝謝主席。有請抒發部。"},{"start":5560.44,"end":5581.054,"text":"市長好,我相信詐騙的議題全國的人都在關心因為現在詐騙的電話很多的陌生的電話大家都不敢接只要沒有輸入那個名字再來我相信說台灣有用智慧手機的用戶都應該接到很多的詐騙的簡訊"},{"start":5583.075,"end":5586.239,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":5598.152,"end":5610.946,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":5620.656,"end":5628.282,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":5638.11,"end":5646.217,"text":"經常有出現詐騙案,機關都沒有使用一一一簡訊的系統,所以不僅是宣傳防詐不成,還誤導民眾受騙。請問我們副發部的未來如何改善這個部分,還能防範詐騙集團,冒用這兩個來去詐騙我們民眾?"},{"start":5661.075,"end":5676.738,"text":"是,跟委員報告,關於這個短馬這個部分,速發部我們自從推出以後,現在就是分兩部分進行,一方面就是有集體的採購,然後希望有更多的部門"},{"start":5677.719,"end":5693.888,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":5705.755,"end":5734.973,"text":"那剛才那個委員有提到就是說這個一的這種這種短碼的簡訊有沒有可能被偽造那在技術上來講的確是有那一個一種可能被偽造就是說如果詐騙業者他是私自裝設那個假的基地台的話那這個假的基地台他就真的是可以攔截這種簡訊然後把那個簡訊換掉但是這個部分呢現在目前是由通傳會的北區中區還有南區的"},{"start":5735.713,"end":5735.733,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":5766.093,"end":5788.304,"text":"要那個詐騙集團要假冒這種一一一或這種簡訊的機會其實不是很大好謝謝我們是有一些安全的措施對我們民眾比較有保障還有說你要這個因為現在問我們才知道很多民眾才聽到但是說希望這個要多宣傳才讓更多人說不會受騙"},{"start":5789.404,"end":5798.792,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":5817.366,"end":5818.767,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員"},{"start":5846.957,"end":5866.583,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查"},{"start":5876.666,"end":5900.284,"text":"蘇發部的那個資安院我們這邊就有相關技術的研發第二個是加強集合加強那個檢查那第三個呢是我們希望建立一個健全的台灣在台灣建立一個健全的資安產業因為這個民間的事業的資安還有這個各自的防護基本上不是直接由政府能由政府來處理因為數量太大那我們還是希望說民間的業者能"},{"start":5901.044,"end":5909.986,"text":"借由民間的資安業者來協助他們。 是是我們我們知道但是說我們我要問一下我們次長我們罰最高是多少錢?"},{"start":5910.834,"end":5912.535,"text":"懲罰2萬法至20萬法。懲罰2萬法至20萬法。懲罰2萬法至20萬法。"},{"start":5932.728,"end":5932.828,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":5961.69,"end":5974.275,"text":"好謝謝我們的署長給我一分鐘我我因為我這邊我在處理的個案所以就像這樣子剛才你有說那個專線專線你打進去說你被騙了我來處理沒有被騙了你只是雙方"},{"start":5980.957,"end":5980.977,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":5999.724,"end":6000.924,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":6026.158,"end":6044.979,"text":"感謝安排政委員、我們家黃建平委員。謝謝主席。我們請部長。加部長。加署長。加署長。"},{"start":6050.555,"end":6064.732,"text":"黃委員好部長好 部長我們今天審查這個打詐專法這是一個非常非常重要的一個立法那公寓三期四必先立期四一部好的法律需要人來執行當然這是一定的對不對"},{"start":6066.374,"end":6070.596,"text":"懲罰人力的問題,為了確保關鍵基礎的設施安全,未來我們保安、保二總隊要擴編,要保護我們的基礎設施安全,這是什麼是基礎設施?"},{"start":6092.159,"end":6092.219,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":6114.369,"end":6122.355,"text":"未來我們看研議看看我們現在現在的這關鍵是都是屬於公家單位的一個關鍵是測試我們這次的擴編不是為了打仗也不是為了治安是要去保護這些基礎設施"},{"start":6129.921,"end":6157.987,"text":"這些基礎設施他未來當這些擴兵的警察他可能要分批去接受軍事訓練嘛,因為你還要配備重機槍嘛,還有手榴彈、四針飛彈這些東西嘛,這些東西跟我們以前,以往我們認知在警專、警大受的傷完全不一樣喔,那今天是第2陸軍的規格啊。跟委員報告,這個也是一個安全維護的一個方式而已啦,就是跟軍事訓練是不一樣的啦,這個也是一個安全維護的一個措施。"},{"start":6160.468,"end":6172.011,"text":"以往我們警察署授勳完全不同。應該是雷同,跟我們警察的授勳應該差不多了。本市會持續關注保安的議題,回到打詐專法,當然有些人會說我們的警力工作量已經這麼多了,未來在打詐專法配合下去之後,他的警力會不會吃緊?特別是我們提到56條檢舉,"},{"start":6187.555,"end":6191.36,"text":"檢舉獎勵制度,這部份未來會否是責任?也會責任我們基層、我們這間院會負擔?因為我們未來是不是有多專屬的人力去做這一塊?這個是不是也要來?"},{"start":6204.582,"end":6209.504,"text":"檢舉檢舉我覺得是一個很老的一個字,也就是說在要不要發生這個詐欺的進展,有人會提出檢舉檢舉檢舉"},{"start":6219.088,"end":6219.208,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":6233.985,"end":6249.26,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯�"},{"start":6258.765,"end":6273.556,"text":"最受公允組織詬弊的緊急事件RPZ1.5 號稱可以在半天之內將可疑網站封鎖,可以繞過司法公正檢核程序的高速公路,這兩年也被廣泛使用。"},{"start":6274.537,"end":6293.248,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":6306.76,"end":6328.296,"text":"這個主要是在我們法案的這個草案的第42條那我們在這邊關於那個網路那個限制接取還有那個停止解析的這個部分那我們目前是要有三個條件第一個條件就是說他必須涉及詐欺犯罪就是一般人民一般的言論自由這個是我們是不會去干涉的就是"},{"start":6331.337,"end":6346.944,"text":"二條件是必須有一個緊急性,看起來不馬上處理會造成更大的災害。第三條件是必須經過目的事業主管機關以及司法警察機關的認定,認為有緊急處置是必要時,我們才會進行這樣的工作。"},{"start":6352.932,"end":6378.01,"text":"是,謝謝,謝謝你的說明,我問這個就是說,其實我會擔憂的是說,未來會不會,因為這個42條的關係,有大量的民眾去檢舉某一個政治人物的平台,像trader,那他會不會因為這樣的關係而下架?這個事情會提到的是因為,接下來未來選舉的時候,這個很容易被拿來做操作,這個是要預防的事情嘛對不對?"},{"start":6378.76,"end":6400.583,"text":"是,包委員,因為如果說有人是檢舉那個政治人物的話,因為這個不涉及詐欺的話,這個第一條件他就不會有了。他本以希望是內政部相關機關能夠多多聽聽民團的建議。那我想打詐是我們共同的目標,我們希望讓打詐專法能夠順利立法之外,我們人權的保障也不要被忽視啦。"},{"start":6401.764,"end":6402.184,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":6432.538,"end":6437.701,"text":"黃建斌委員執行王美惠委員執行部長和署長"},{"start":6452.828,"end":6463.712,"text":"黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘黃文哲主秘"},{"start":6482.981,"end":6486.983,"text":"在這裏面跟這手機的黃連勳,我覺得他很偉大,還對台灣很好。這阿強對台灣的白色,對台灣的Q的時候,他這樣帶這麼多人來台灣,還要接受。我覺得相信大家都對他,都比大伙好。但是在這手機裏面,我很想要加臨。"},{"start":6512.315,"end":6517.837,"text":"他們還要擬具的信喔?不知道到底哪一個人會擬,我都不知道啦。連鎖五六的黃連勳啦,還有黃連勳、雄平他的,他也是擬具人。只有擬具人、我擬具人,我也覺得很高興的。畢竟他是台灣人。在這裡面,我要說的就是說,今天我們在說打架打架,"},{"start":6540.922,"end":6544.565,"text":"是負責發生事情,不然發生的時候,我們是要如何從頭做好,讓他賣給我們騙嘛,再來騙到後,我們要如何負責協助啦,這是重要的啦。"},{"start":6560.811,"end":6571.078,"text":"因為有時候被審、再次拒絕、再次拒絕不便宜、再次便宜的時候,他會想到說:「搞不好不知道要怎樣,我可以找法術所、找建設局。」但是有的都說:「你再打一支電話165165。」現在我要請教你們各黨委員,被審若便宜的時候,"},{"start":6589.039,"end":6590.54,"text":"我們今天想這個法案是如何會讓貿易省人員有什麼調校好來的錢,退回來嗎?還是一半之後,我們所有所作的,可以來提供說我現在辦到怎樣嗎?這是最重要的。來,"},{"start":6611.867,"end":6612.628,"text":"陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":6632.442,"end":6638.246,"text":"四、五位一個人說他又是黃天勳自己的,我也很想要抓下去,但是我看四、五位應該是假的吧。是,就是還沒有犯罪,這個偉貌、身份這些事情是由我們庶發部來處理。"},{"start":6647.993,"end":6648.513,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":6665.639,"end":6668.584,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、罪犯罪行為、罪犯罪行為、罪犯罪行為、罪犯罪行為、罪犯罪行為、"},{"start":6681.181,"end":6698.468,"text":"知道,所以我們需要這個法案,因為我們現在要求META跟LINE它下架,對嘛,現在大家就是要有這個法,要有法度,趕快去坐車說12點前後就可以下架,我們是希望它在一個小時或者30分鐘之內就馬上給我們下架,對啦,這這樣順海會減輕啦,是。"},{"start":6702.93,"end":6715.572,"text":"再來,在你剛才介紹的那樣,本身因為當局有很多白色,說實在,這黨真的說實在,非常重要的。一般的白色大大小人,都不要去當局,他也不要當局,他的出名單位也會去當局。所以來,署長,你認為白色跟165之後,快先給我先啊,要怎麼處理,可以白色怎麼協助?"},{"start":6731.381,"end":6747.644,"text":"我認為這個法規,就是現在剛才說的關頭那些會接濟廣告來被騙的這種這個機率嘛。但是如果沒有賭得很好的,有一些人就是"},{"start":6748.425,"end":6748.465,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":6778.745,"end":6783.83,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":6794.879,"end":6803.625,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":6820.64,"end":6836.231,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":6839.694,"end":6846.439,"text":"主秘來,主秘,在這裏我們要跟你說的是,我們的電信業者都有要買信卡嘛,這等久以來,都是外流的、輕版版的買賣,跟賣給台灣人的詐騙集團,說實在,我看那個通信業者有夠不良心的。"},{"start":6867.869,"end":6869.45,"text":"這要怎麼處理?我覺得你們上次也知道,他們都叫這些外國人去買賣,來給全國人的私用,像NP主也這樣,騙說我主怎麼不理會大姐的電話時機。"},{"start":6883.8,"end":6884.701,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案件 。"},{"start":6908.013,"end":6913.835,"text":"您開始處理的選擇的人都回來了,這才是問題啦。我們現在在那個條例的第20條,我們規定說,電信業比較要定期,要對一些外流的移工啦,要定期要去檢查你的資料庫,這個人如果離境了,隨時這個電話號碼你都要停掉。主委,我在這裏提供意見,跟你的介入的理解給我,"},{"start":6935.2,"end":6936.902,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":6946.199,"end":6946.98,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":6970.455,"end":6977.641,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":7003.529,"end":7019.519,"text":"兩位好我想部長就是政府為了打擊這個詐騙所以現在制定我們這個這個詐房的專法我想大家都非常的支持那也希望說這樣子的一個打擊專打擊詐騙的專法訂定之後是能夠真正的防止詐騙啦"},{"start":7020.74,"end":7047.468,"text":"當然這個部分的話我想除了這個制定專法之後我們應該還有兩大的基礎工作要做一個是這個帳戶的監管強化KYC的策略前面打擊的人頭帳戶我想這方面做得還不錯第二個呢就是政府也應該做好個資管理那當然我想這個部分政府就有待加強我在5月2號的質詢有特別提出連中國大陸都有我國的戶政資料可以比對尤其在2023年網路有駭客在網"},{"start":7049.889,"end":7060.094,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":7079.544,"end":7108.206,"text":"在翻供的狀況之下我想沒有人會相信喔那在這邊請問部長喔就是我們這次的專法立法完成之後對於外洩個資導致詐騙的業者我們有哪些的防護措施那本席今天要提出的修正動議就是針對電信個資外洩的部分喔罰則在加重當然除了提高罰款之外我們還希望能夠限制取得電信的這個評估喔那請問劉部長是不是支持跟委員報告"},{"start":7108.946,"end":7117.632,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":7131.061,"end":7160.129,"text":"在各自的部分的話三家電信業者並沒有洩漏但是在去識別化這一塊我們昨天也發了一個新聞稿要求三大電信事業你必須就去識別化的這一塊你必須要加強保護同時要導入2010...是不是能夠這個會後請把相關的資料一份給本市辦公室那這邊要請教部長的是說我們針對這個部分希望法國有提出收入動力就是希望能夠再提高罰款還有就是限制取得這個電信評估請問部長是不是支持"},{"start":7161.346,"end":7179.387,"text":"有看到許委員所提的部分但是就我們在提出這個法案當然是可以參考因為等一下我們希望能夠主條進入主條的時候我們一案再來檢視一案如果其他部會可以一起同意的話我們當然不反對但是要看其他的部會在橫頻的處理上面是不是有達到共識"},{"start":7179.807,"end":7180.067,"text":"請問我們可以加入嗎?"},{"start":7200.318,"end":7226.054,"text":"基本上據我們了解現在我們在網路上看到的這個所有粉絲團都是假的那對於這種詐騙的話我們數位發展部分成三部分來處理在最短期呢我們是設立一個那個名人的通報郵件信箱那我們也跟黃仁勳先生以及一些社會名人那邊取得聯絡他們遇到這種詐騙的時候可以馬上跟我們講我們馬上就是去要求LINE還有FACEBOOK這些"},{"start":7226.584,"end":7241.667,"text":"綜合網路廣告平台本來要下架。這是最短期的做法。剛剛您說12個小時之內嗎?是嗎?那是現在他們的速度是這個樣子。但是這個法律通過以後,如果他們速度太慢的話,我們就可以罰他。所以說我們現在其實一打黃仁勳還是一堆嘛。"},{"start":7242.348,"end":7264.866,"text":"包括說其實現在我們就是針對這個我也針對這個反詐騙四法就我們現在打詐四法我也上網google了一下結果他出現了一堆的這個這些廣告然後我點進去之後一看居然是內政部警政署的165全面全民防騙網請問這個是真的是警政署的網站嗎還是貿易用的網站"},{"start":7268.086,"end":7282.524,"text":"那這個其實你只要打進去就一堆這樣子的一個這個詐騙的這個出現。包括那個是假的也是冒用只有那個logo是假冒165那上面的都是詐騙集團。"},{"start":7283.681,"end":7290.783,"text":"那請教署長,因為這個幾乎是非常的猖獗嘛,而且你一打進去反詐騙司法就已經都在最上面了。對,所以這個就是詐騙的廣告。那未來就是說,這個法通過之後,能夠從源頭那邊做身份上的一個確認,他才有辦法上這個廣告嗎?"},{"start":7303.146,"end":7307.389,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、懷疑、"},{"start":7318.507,"end":7333.823,"text":"是,就個人名人的部分我們要求就是做實名制就是說那個網路廣告平台必須去確認這是本人發出來的然後在政府的方面的話我們當然是政府單位得到那個訊息以後馬上會要求那個LINE跟Facebook這種"},{"start":7334.924,"end":7337.846,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》案。 »: 審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》案。 »:"},{"start":7356.015,"end":7356.435,"text":"請委員多支持。"},{"start":7381.633,"end":7387.559,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":7405.287,"end":7432.089,"text":"黃委員好,好部長好請教一下今天我們這個反詐條例大家都非常關心啦因為這個詐騙大家都深惡痛絕請教一下我們現在的詐騙的前三名大概是什麼樣的類型啊類型我們請警政署來回應一下現在最多是假投資再來就是解除分歧分可再來就是網路的詐騙這前三樣是最多的"},{"start":7432.651,"end":7446.676,"text":"是 這個其實我這邊也是看到說現在第一名的大概就是投資詐騙這其實我們立院有同事的家人就是涉及這種詐騙的類型投資詐騙再來第二種就是分期付款第三種就是網路的買賣"},{"start":7448.296,"end":7471.025,"text":"對那這三種確實是現在我們最關心的因為很多人像剛剛巧慧委員也提到他看到那個一頁式廣告也會差點要點進去那我就這一次我們修法的內容針對這一些犯罪的類型還有大家受騙的類型有沒有一些你們接下來即將可以處理的可不可以用非常白話的方式讓大家知道說我們接下來是有辦法透過這個反詐的專法來處理這些大家會遇到的包括投資詐騙"},{"start":7477.788,"end":7483.375,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、二、十一、"},{"start":7485.567,"end":7505.743,"text":"好 這個簡單來講就有三大任務第一個就是從源頭那邊也就是這些訊息截止而且是有可以去追來源他要去投放這個廣告要有這些身份的證明甚至有在國外的話在國內就是要有法律代人也都可以追得到誰去投放這個廣告啦讓這個廣告的訊息沒辦法讓民眾去接觸到"},{"start":7510.796,"end":7510.836,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":7526.716,"end":7541.424,"text":"接觸到的這些這個訊息我們希望就是民眾不會讓他去相信那我們會加強來做做宣討也就是說現在高高號發的這些詐騙的這些的手法我們會做精準的去做"},{"start":7542.244,"end":7546.967,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":7567.159,"end":7593.677,"text":"懲罰懲罰懲罰懲罰懲罰懲罰懲罰"},{"start":7594.377,"end":7621.611,"text":"好 謝謝署長那我再來謝謝我們部長跟署長先請回再來我請教一下NCC因為我覺得接下來的重點確實像剛剛署長有講到源頭的阻斷以及接下來的這些底下的車手或是這些人頭賬戶到底要怎麼去阻斷他請教一下NCC我們現在的這個內容是不是因為過去把它分為第一類電信第二類電信然後現在是針對過去的這些第二類電信沒有辦法處理的也要求他要實名制不是"},{"start":7623.692,"end":7641.528,"text":"我們在號碼關聯辦法裡面已經處理到一大部分的問題了目前這個法律裡面只在處理一個就是因為有些電信服務它不需要號碼所以我要補這一塊那另外一塊是我們在講的黑美卡這一塊因為黑美卡是境外電信服務那另外一塊是我們在講的移工卡這一塊"},{"start":7642.088,"end":7662.766,"text":"那因為啊移工卡這一塊的話因為將來我們寫的號碼管理辦法裡面那同時它也確實是有所謂的沒有使用電話號碼的這一塊所以我這邊也在處理移工卡那等於是說我除了電信管理法為主那這一部分那這一部分呢打打大條例裡面電信章只要是要補充我電信管理法管理辦法裡面所沒有的"},{"start":7663.254,"end":7663.994,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":7684.124,"end":7689.912,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":7695.589,"end":7717.161,"text":"好 那這個也是我希望等一下進入主條的時候我們可以討論的部分針對三大電信業者他們其實在中間扮演非常重要的協助通訊的角色但是他們並沒有予以他們一定的義務跟責任所以我也希望說他們也要 也要請他們加強好 謝謝NCC最後我請教一下速發部就問一個問題喔"},{"start":7718.462,"end":7743.348,"text":"就是說現在我們這一些廣告上架到底有沒有辦法你們有更有效積極的去阻斷這一些明明很明顯都是詐騙可是因為受害人沒有主動的去檢舉或者是跟你們報案變成說你們都沒有辦法去主動的下架這些一夜市的詐騙廣告當然不一定一夜市啦其實網路廣告漫天飛非常多的詐騙訊息都是這樣來的那書發部在當中的角色到底是什麼"},{"start":7744.529,"end":7758.886,"text":"審查委員關於這個第一個我們要知道說有哪些詐騙的廣告接下來我們會做有兩種作為第一個是我們在資安院每天會利用AI的技術去掃描網路上所有可能的詐騙廣告"},{"start":7759.807,"end":7765.352,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":7778.943,"end":7789.966,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐"},{"start":7808.092,"end":7822.741,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":7837.609,"end":7866.695,"text":"所以這我也希望說接下來在審查的時候我們也有一定的機制要求這一些社群平台的業者不管是LINE不管是META還是所有的社群的業者也應該要負起一定的篩選內容的責任他當然不是說去限制他的大家的言論自由而是這很明顯都是內容是犯罪的但是平台業者好像都與他無關這是最大的問題是好這個要拜託速發部我們再努力一下謝謝委員也請委員多支持好謝謝市長"},{"start":7868.413,"end":7869.194,"text":"好,謝謝黃婕委員的質詢。謝謝。謝謝。繼續我們請昭偉吳啟明昭偉來質詢。謝謝。"},{"start":7880.376,"end":7889.279,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":7911.105,"end":7936.249,"text":"我有曾經一個案例從3月份3月份一個也是我們立法院的同仁也是跑來我國會來陳情他被詐欺了也是400萬那3月份他就報警了那報警了5月份他那個網路還存在那這一點就是表示我們各單位都沒有同仇嘛"},{"start":7936.849,"end":7958.575,"text":"那你說好,我打165,我到保守去報案,照理講保守一定要直接報上我們一個專責的單位。你一個專責單位不是除了刑事局以外,你NCC、你世衛部還有我們法務部,我們各單位都要成立一個專門打詐的一個我們的專責單位。"},{"start":7963.956,"end":7991.882,"text":"前國民眾不管在哪個派出所一報案你馬上就可以到這個單位這個單位是跨部會來辦案來處理那你也所以說隨時跟民眾說辦案的情形到哪裡相信說他就沒有下一個受害者這是很重要啊所以我可以聽聽就是我們一個跨部會都要把它整合起來你這樣才能跟打仗來做先戰"},{"start":7992.722,"end":7996.11,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":7997.079,"end":8026.782,"text":"你既然不管外國的軟體公司來到台灣他們是來做生意啊你就要遵守我們台灣的法令啊所以我們今天要處理的我們的所有打詐的法條都很重要啊我也期期盼說我們國民黨民眾黨以及民進黨大家都是全力來向打詐宣戰這這才是我們可以替我們台灣人解剖問題啦齁我是不是請書長啊不不不中你小姐啦"},{"start":8027.837,"end":8048.717,"text":"委員你講得很對,所以說我們這波打詐的專法是結合各部會,一個結合起來的。不管是金管、通傳、或是速發、法務部、內政部,五個部會,是大家通力合作,要來"},{"start":8049.938,"end":8064.118,"text":"打擊這個詐欺讓人民有感。對。對,最重要讓人民有感。啊,剛才委員你講的這個,這個,就是說三個人的這件案件,三個人的報案。那你這間公司就是一直在一直在投放這一些的訊息嗎?對的,在裡面。"},{"start":8066.681,"end":8086.792,"text":"對、對、因為FEP 裡面,我們有跟通報、有通報接觸、然後下架大概有30幾次啦。30幾次。但是案件我現在要跟委員報道說,任何,我們希望就是我們全國的陪審都不能去不放棄。最好就是這樣。達到最後都不能放棄。但是萬一你去務信、放棄、你去報案。"},{"start":8089.888,"end":8105.278,"text":"臺灣、我們全國所有的警察機關、任何的派出所都可以受理報案,單一窗口,沒有人要受理報案。受理報案以後,我們會有主責,就是說被害人住的這個地方,我們就會"},{"start":8106.118,"end":8107.099,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":8121.773,"end":8138.5,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":8148.244,"end":8163.243,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":8164.284,"end":8164.784,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":8179.953,"end":8188.035,"text":"所以我才說要成立一個跨部會大家來統籌任何的詐騙都是在跨部會因為這一段我們跟勞動部移民署我們會做資料庫連結那目前我們也正在討論那那個應該近期內我們就會跟這兩個單位啊將他們的資料啊能夠統一在移民署那邊然後由我們定期要求我們的業者要定期要去查詢那只要你有查到這些人不在境內的話"},{"start":8206.078,"end":8206.658,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":8236.337,"end":8236.497,"text":"吳釗偉執行吳釗偉執行"},{"start":8260.912,"end":8283.977,"text":"謝謝昭偉我很高興今天在我們委員會裡面看到這麼多中央部會的人都來這裡我們來看一下今天我們是要針對詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案來做說明所以很顯然他是跨部會的然後除了跨部會之外呢今天我們的行政院打擊詐欺辦公室的主任也來我們先請李主任好嗎謝謝好請主任"},{"start":8289.062,"end":8310.955,"text":"主任從剛剛開始一直都沒有聽到你說話您認為今天我們要審這個法案我唸一遍您看是正不正確就是為了防制和打擊詐騙危害我國也就是中華民國從111年6月起就實施了新世代的打擊詐欺策略行動綱領對不對從市詐"},{"start":8314.212,"end":8336.042,"text":"堵詐、阻詐、懲詐、四大面向左手,然後呢,要奠定各項政策基礎方針,然後由行政院組成跨部會打詐國家隊,所以很早我們就清楚知道是要跨部會的,而且國家也成立所謂的國家打詐隊,然後要來攜手協力共同應處詐欺犯罪的問題。"},{"start":8337.162,"end":8363.994,"text":"然後在面對詐欺犯罪形態和技術不斷的演進所以你們也非常清楚知道有非常多的新形態的犯罪案不斷的發生所以你們為了要因應高度反覆發生的詐欺犯罪的案例你們在112年的6月你們也實施了打詐綱領1.5版要減少這些傷害的宗旨請問一下做了些什麼?"},{"start":8365.467,"end":8380.229,"text":"跟委員報告我們在111年執行這個1.0版的打炸綱領但是執行一年之後覺得說還有有提升這個怎麼提升怎麼提升成立了這個"},{"start":8381.786,"end":8392.173,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":8404.212,"end":8426.333,"text":"一百一十一年詐騙案案件兩萬九千五百零九一百一十二年詐騙案件三萬七千八百二十三我們看到有一點五百有編前詐騙案案件指針不降所以認為今天我們修了這個法例的這個條例就可以來打詐了嗎"},{"start":8427.927,"end":8429.749,"text":"然後再來看一下4年的詐騙案的破獲率109年2.3萬件110年2.4萬件111年2.9萬件112年3.7萬件4年增加了1.4萬件成長了1.6萬件"},{"start":8445.547,"end":8447.39,"text":"破獲率是這麼低啊為什麼我們有1.5的所謂的行政院跨部會的小組為什麼我們也編列了預算我們的詐騙案件數是越來越高破獲率越來越低呢誰能夠告訴我"},{"start":8463.144,"end":8476.409,"text":"除了什麼問題?除了什麼問題請簡單我只有剩下幾分鐘我的問題就是那個源頭的管理好署長您不用說沒關係我們先請行政院的主任"},{"start":8477.009,"end":8486.611,"text":"你今天來扮演很重要的角色啊,你要把今天來的這個各部會全部變成一個跨部會的小組啊,也結束它的成績應該是在行政院長的成績嘛,不是嗎?今天來我們個別內政部、警政署來說話,然後行政院這個訴發部來說話、法務部來說話、國家通訊闖蕩委員會來講,"},{"start":8498.414,"end":8509.498,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":8524.059,"end":8524.199,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":8545.146,"end":8549.911,"text":"你自己上面也假拉底你就是因為知道日新夜異犯罪形態技術不斷演進所以你們才會在112年6月實施的打炸綱領1.5百嘛錢也給你了然後所謂的制度你們也建立了為什麼還是這樣"},{"start":8564.545,"end":8564.665,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":8582.498,"end":8602.286,"text":"我們看一下你們的防制詐騙的宣導資訊我們從最簡單的來講請就警政署的部分你們有全民防騙網165165的LINE官方帳號165的宣導臉書警政署有APP刑事警察局有官方網站你們有沒有看見發現一個事情你們全部是透過網路宣傳對不對"},{"start":8604.867,"end":8611.17,"text":"原鄉跟偏鄉網路資訊本來就是獲取不易,我們有非常多的長輩連這些都看不到,所以他怎麼清楚知道他是被騙呢?所以請問一下你們針對這個部分你要怎麼樣再做精進?我想委員我們也會做實體的宣導,入鄉入裡去做宣導,實體就是我們有宣導團,"},{"start":8632.282,"end":8641.127,"text":"審討團到你們園鄉的部落裡面有集會的場合去做﹑ 很好,所以你們知道問題對不對?所以要有人力來宣傳嘛對不對?"},{"start":8641.127,"end":8652.674,"text":"好,署長請部長了,謝謝。既然清楚知道在園鄉跟偏鄉我們需要人力,所以足夠的警力宣傳有它的必要性對不對?"},{"start":8653.434,"end":8675.805,"text":"我們來看一下數據從今年4月警政署的詐欺統計來看我們除了離島之外花東兩縣的詐欺破獲率是全國倒數前兩名花東是原住民族地區的最多而且呢都是老人留下最多所以很顯然你知道問題需要提高人力我告訴你該怎麼做我們來看一下檢察署"},{"start":8676.385,"end":8681.888,"text":"他109年他的案件從5239成長到16萬,三年之間幅度高達了320%,因為檢察署他的人力不足,所以他在112年的時候他提出了禁用檢察官助理要有100人的政策,他要強化他的偵查輔助人力,所以問題來了。"},{"start":8699.339,"end":8726.44,"text":"檢察署都可以增加人力清楚知道要有人力請問一下我們警政署你剛剛說了在偏鄉跟原鄉的地方你們會編族人力除了這個網路之外所以人力夠嗎對 我想這個委員講的很有道理很好啊 謝謝你人力我們今年就是在10月份大概有1300多人會畢業那明年大概2700多位所以署長在這邊跟部長講一下人力不夠對不對我們就是說"},{"start":8729.462,"end":8748.835,"text":"我不是說不過我就是說會針對這些區域的這一些發生的這個狀況來做這個編派人力的一個派補好現在既然署長這麼多部長我在這邊您真的是蠻辛苦的一上來就要面對這麼多的問題尤其是詐騙這個是這件事情你看這個照片"},{"start":8749.696,"end":8772.114,"text":"我到原鄉地區都幫我們基層的警政署來拍照片,就是因為人力不夠,對不對,因為人力不夠,所以署長你這邊要非常清楚跟部長講,因為我們的基層人力真的不夠,它除了一般警政的業務之外,現在新興犯罪也非常多,尤其是原鄉跟偏鄉的警力,所以偏鄉跟"},{"start":8773.234,"end":8799.092,"text":"懸殼警力一定要增加。這個警力不僅僅是破壞所謂的防制交通等等的,它還有這個新興的犯罪,是需要人力去宣導的。所以可不可以在兩週之內提出一些書面報告,讓本席清楚知道你們在懸殼跟偏鄉,一、怎麼這樣增加人力,第二、怎麼解決這些問題,好不好?沒問題。可以嗎?請問部長。可以。請問部長可以嗎?可以。"},{"start":8801.808,"end":8811.154,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":8830.866,"end":8847.395,"text":"下一位我們請張志仁委員執行。張志仁委員我們聽協中委員執行完,我們就休息五分鐘。謝謝。好,謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員,大家早。所以有請部長。"},{"start":8854.686,"end":8872.238,"text":"蔣委員好部長好部長今天我們在討論的就是有關於詐欺犯罪的這個遇害防治法我覺得這非常重要那所以我覺得現在全台灣國人都認為這個詐騙的案件層數不窮不只是金額增加而且是說這些詐騙的人"},{"start":8873.72,"end":8884.263,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":8899.207,"end":8914.911,"text":"在值得這個行政院長賴清德的主政之下,行政院通過這個換發數位身份證,就是NEID,可是在時隔3個月以後,在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放。請問部長你知道說這個數位身份證當時這個停止暫緩啟動的原因嗎?"},{"start":8920.813,"end":8942.965,"text":"報告張委員當時停止的時候其實我也是立法委員大概那個時候的四個黨都同意最主要的原因就是我們數位身份證在資安或是個資還有法律上面的法令不足的關係如果貿然就推動的話恐怕會造成譬如說身份證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題會造成更大的詐騙的來源"},{"start":8945.606,"end":8963.781,"text":"非常感謝部長,因為部長當時也是非常的專業,所以我相信部長在這一部分應該是非常的用心。那本席要跟部長報告就是說,其實數位身份當時的概念就是因為要維護治安,然後要人民的這個數位的這個身份資料可以再進一步。"},{"start":8964.661,"end":8985.697,"text":"蘇貴身份證當時的用意很單純只是要把身份證我們現在一般人用的身份證加上自然門憑證把它併在一起其實它是用意良善的那我想要請教部長的是說當時在這個蘇貴身份證剛開始啟用的時候它有先有三個地方先做市營運是新北澎湖以及是新竹市可是後來這三個地區都反對"},{"start":8986.417,"end":8990.6,"text":"所以部長我認為這邊喔是在中央在做這個輸入身份證的發這個試營運的時候溝通的不足你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任"},{"start":8996.93,"end":9021.418,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我剛有提到了在立法院是每個黨每個黨團都同意要暫緩那三個縣市政府當時要同意事辦那後來沒有事辦我想主要的原因在於說我想張委員非常知道我們身份證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入移出遷入遷出所以他沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府"},{"start":9021.858,"end":9026.141,"text":"新竹市用紙本身份證,新竹市用數位身份證,這樣會產生在民政系統上或是互證系統或是相關的其他身份證用的時候很大的困擾,所以用這樣示範的方式其實不是一個太好的示範的措施,所以後來也就停止不再示範。"},{"start":9045.034,"end":9070.769,"text":"所以我先請教部長,所以部長你是支持這個數位身份證繼續重啟,繼續來做嗎?我想不能完全這樣講,目前為止我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠,譬如說個資,還有包括數位發展部,因為它是一個新興的部會,它相關的這個譬如說T-Roll也好,或者是在機構跟機構之間,是不是也必須要,包括公務機關,是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以。"},{"start":9071.73,"end":9071.75,"text":"負責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責責"},{"start":9092.566,"end":9118.332,"text":"那當然還有資安的問題那整個預算其實總經費是48億而且現在依照我們徐宇貞委員跟審計部的這個資料已經花了14億這都是人民的納稅錢而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分所以我這不能接受就是行政院當時有一個這個院會3736院會他當時最主要說要停止輸的身份證原因是兩個"},{"start":9119.272,"end":9134.142,"text":"第一個就是說資安的問題可是他特別提到的是因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個EID系統所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮所以請部長問到底這個院會做出任何大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何第二個"},{"start":9134.662,"end":9158.679,"text":"是有關於相當相關的法律的配套是否已經有已經有開始做修法的這個動作如果都沒有還沒有有些有修有些還沒修就針對一些我們比較重視的比如說個人資料保護法還有戶籍法及這個資通安全管理法這些部分到底我們行政院有沒有要來修不然的話這些東西有這個數位身份證一定會石沉大海請部長是不是"},{"start":9159.019,"end":9178.505,"text":"我覺得需要從長計議因為委員所提到的三個法律分別擅在不同的部會那目前可能三個不同的部會都還沒有共識如果我們內部的部會沒有共識的話貿然就啟動我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大也就是說我們必須要在審慎的評估之後才能做決定"},{"start":9179.175,"end":9198.446,"text":"好,最後是時間的關係,我想要播一段影片給部長看,因為我們現在在數位身份證調查小組裡面,我們希望說第一個要重視我們內政委員會所有的委員,大家一個這個調閱的權利啦,可是我發現這個我們在調閱的時候,我覺得我們本委會的委員非常的可憐,"},{"start":9200.339,"end":9212.211,"text":"來我們看一下齁我發現就是說很多的資料不透明不明確從第一頁啊到最後一頁全部都反黑請部長看一下"},{"start":9215.765,"end":9241.917,"text":"我想說我們都希望大家的數位身份證可以更讓民眾知道說推行數位身份證從政府102年開始是一個利益良善只要資安能夠維護那大家能夠去了解可以大家一起來幫政府來去做一個說明的動作想不到我們第二頁小組現在張偉也非常的重視第二頁小組裡面給的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁完全都是反黑的"},{"start":9242.617,"end":9263.741,"text":"那我私下有跟我們辛苦的這個內政部副政事的同仁聊到他說他們在這個反黑這些資料的時候他們都覺得非常的無言啊這個比我相信蔣安安市長當時在調這個疫苗的時候只有隱藏部分的資料現在是從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑結果我再開另外一個檔案"},{"start":9265.472,"end":9285.973,"text":"有另外答案有嗎?結果後來我們這個內部的同仁跟我講因為就是因為學武反黑就是不要讓我們好像就是有刻意不要讓我們立法院來去看所以之後我們所有行政官員太累了後來有一本我這邊手上有資料全部做指令目錄所以請問部長你能接受這樣的第二個小組嗎?"},{"start":9287.334,"end":9301.608,"text":"第二小組你們這個內政部提供的第二小組的資料全部第一頁到最後一頁反黑不僅浪費值啊而且一點意義都沒有報告委員那內政部所提供的資料大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法我們都依照規定來辦理"},{"start":9303.53,"end":9327.971,"text":"所以部長其實我有跟你們內部討論了啦所以我希望是說這個第二小組而且我想這個我們召委主席大家都非常重視啦所以我相信這是史無前例從第一次從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁全部都反黑啦所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況所以所以在最後還是拜託就是數位身份證"},{"start":9328.792,"end":9345.52,"text":"第1個就是說大陸未來還有沒有大陸這個治安的疑慮第一個你們要來去做一個來做一個解釋的一個動作不然說身份證是完全無法重啟第二個就是說我們相關的法令配套從當時一百"},{"start":9346.741,"end":9372.844,"text":"一百零九年的時候,行政院長當了行政院長,現在總統賴清德通過了以後,現在已經是一百一十三年了。這幾年,我們內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法律?如果沒有的話,輸入身份證要如何重啟?第三個,請部長協助,要重視我們這個內政委員會、調查委員會來做職權行使的一個權利。不能說從第一頁到最後一頁,全部都反黑。"},{"start":9374.785,"end":9389.062,"text":"這個看到這個那位子啊,因為他們這個內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言,到最後直接是只有一目錄,所以我覺得這個是非常大家從功沒有意義的,而且這真的讓大家我覺得國人沒辦法接受,所以請部長協助可以嗎?"},{"start":9389.622,"end":9405.738,"text":"是,剛剛委員特別提到就是說要不要重啟這個新式身份證的部分的話國安餘力確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾那它必須要修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的不只三個法還有其他的相關的這個措施因為國安餘力真的是非常的大"},{"start":9406.779,"end":9426.352,"text":"還是一樣我剛有特別提到說我們這個內政委員會的這個調閱小組所要提供的資料的話站在內政部的立場就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資訊公開法的規定來管理。所以部長其實我沒有要你回答這一塊所以你認同這個他從第一天到最後一天一千多月都是反黑嗎?沒有你當委員的時候你看到這樣的資料你能同意嗎?"},{"start":9427.369,"end":9456.096,"text":"所以部長我沒有讓你回答可是因為這點我是希望你可以好好去改善啦因為這樣子我相信對我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦而且你之前也是當過立法委員我需要說大家應該互相尊重好不好那部長這部分再拜託你我們需要說讓這個內政委員會的委員都一個可以更公開透明大家去了解而且一起來推動這個政府最重視的資安的問題也跟今天的主題這個打詐防詐騙是非常重要的好嗎部長"},{"start":9456.556,"end":9473.728,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9486.926,"end":9507.204,"text":"防制條例草案,這是我們現屆優先的法案,修宣打詐、防詐是大家的一個共識,均是非常支持更好力的詐騙集團。現在打詐效率目前是有很大的民怨,執行效率比較不彰,需要更好的方針。"},{"start":9511.448,"end":9516.871,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案 、 草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案"},{"start":9538.42,"end":9541.002,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9556.832,"end":9568.839,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、"},{"start":9581.506,"end":9604.005,"text":"打詐推出很多國家隊的這個法案是因為我們的這個授權不足也就是說在我們各個部會在做行政上面的這個協調的時候已經窮盡所力但是發現到說如果我們立法裡面的授權不足包括說我們未來在不管從救援裡面從金管會、通傳會還有數位部很多防止的預防面"},{"start":9604.565,"end":9608.651,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":9621.909,"end":9625.953,"text":"這次前政務委員羅秉成是非常好的法律專家,他在我們歐里空陣前已經完成新《詐欺事法》。在《詐欺事法》內,在我們內政委員會是以《詐欺危害防制條例》為主。在《司法法制委員會》就是《洗錢防治法》、"},{"start":9644.091,"end":9644.431,"text":"你講三分之一啊。"},{"start":9666.884,"end":9673.267,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":9686.86,"end":9695.214,"text":"要有法律代表人,第二,法律代表人哪像是法律新創的一個名詞,當然現行法律中剛有這個名詞。"},{"start":9697.312,"end":9718.462,"text":"應該不是新創名詞,我請主管機關幫你解釋一下。謝謝委員,這是香港歐盟他們有legal representative,因為你要用法律代理人或有的法務,但是這個叫做法律代表。法律代表因為國際的做法要一致,所以我們參考歐盟的做法,"},{"start":9719.382,"end":9724.083,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》案。 »: 現在很多網絡平台、業者、市場規模最大的都是外國公司,資料有可能都在國外資料庫內,這個草案有否發動要求外國國際公司的企業來給我們配合?"},{"start":9743.621,"end":9762.276,"text":"報告委員,這個一方面我們是主動跟這些跨國網路平台業者做溝通然後勸說,那另一方面就是我們希望這個法律的通過當這些跨國網路廣告平台如果他們不願意合作的話我們有一些法源去要求他甚至於是對他們處罰"},{"start":9764.177,"end":9778.812,"text":"有法人對外國公司可以處罰他們?對,基本上這個就是為什麼我們希望他在台灣設立法律代表的原因。那如果他不願意設立法律代表的話,那我們就是最後的手段就是可以幫他降訴。"},{"start":9779.532,"end":9794.288,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9802.156,"end":9823.141,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9824.381,"end":9838.429,"text":"沒有這個濫權,但要如何確定會讓有心的人濫用這些權利,拿去做法判的用途,一些個資的問題。總管若發生像我們進行我們民進黨政策會執行長,於是濫用電信公司的個人資訊問題,這就過分我們要如何處理。"},{"start":9854.933,"end":9856.479,"text":"黃 黃竹敏 竹敏啊 電信公司"},{"start":9862.483,"end":9867.385,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":9892.073,"end":9907.319,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9917.861,"end":9922.724,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9937.031,"end":9937.051,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":10399.534,"end":10407.539,"text":"好各位同仁我們現在繼續開會那下一個我們習新穎委員執行謝謝好謝謝主席本席請行政院打詐辦公室李主任還有我們內政部劉部長行政院李主任還有我們部長好謝謝"},{"start":10430.282,"end":10431.763,"text":"徐委員好。好。兩位好。我先講一個實例。本席辦公室應該說每位委員辦公室都常常接到詐騙的、民眾被詐騙的案例。我們要協助。結果呢我們就跟"},{"start":10452.304,"end":10479.994,"text":"警察單位我們警政署來詢問怎麼辦我們民眾被詐騙了而且呢是可能是在國外這跨國詐騙結果我們得到的訊息是接電話的員警說這真的沒辦法因為我自己也被騙了一百萬所以呢台灣是詐騙的天堂這個問題出在哪裡我們今天在審這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例"},{"start":10482.185,"end":10495.44,"text":"所有的詐騙集團他們呢靈活、創新、推陳出新但是我們呢我們這邊說打詐國家隊請問這個隊伍有辦法整合嗎?部長因為你是這一個草案的這個主管單位嘛"},{"start":10503.168,"end":10527.413,"text":"我們整個有,你有辦法整合各單位嗎?呃,報告委員,整合齁,第一個就是行政院的各部門的整合,這是一個。那目前行政院各部門齁,在法律授權不足之下,已經歷經兩、三年。我知道,你不用講那個,那你有沒有辦法整合,我只問這個。現在未來的整合還是要靠這個行政院整合至少四個部會,然後我們推出四個法案。行政院誰整合?"},{"start":10529.615,"end":10548.433,"text":"我們目前大概是打詐辦公室在做行政協調的部分打詐辦公室是李主任在整合囉李主任我聽說你的位階不夠你沒辦法指揮各部會阿跟立委報告齁其實行政院是我只要問打詐國家隊誰負責嘛是我們有"},{"start":10549.073,"end":10573.789,"text":"平常都是由政務委員在召集各部委員。現在哪一位政務委員?林明新政務委員。好,OK,所以是由政務委員。好,那接著我們今天的這一個法案、草案啊,你又讓它這個,我們就不希望政出多門,結果你們又每一個草案裡面呢,每一個又分層負責,你根本整合不起來啊。"},{"start":10575.174,"end":10595.874,"text":"這就是最大的問題啊。我們一個團隊你沒辦法整合你就2266。這長期以來就造成我們這個詐騙者的天堂。你沒辦法整合啊。然後再來本席接著要就行政效能不彰的部分。"},{"start":10597.423,"end":10604.728,"text":"有關整合這個部分當然可能不是你們兩位的全責但是我在這邊我還是要先提出來那特別是這一次這個專法"},{"start":10606.622,"end":10631.141,"text":"是內政部是主管單位啊。內政部是主管單位,但是你法案是一部法案,但是你做事又是各自處理。對不對?你們的這個法案裡面,你哪一個是金管會,哪一個是NCC。好,OK,那請兩位先回座。本席接著請金管會同副局長,還有NCC的黃祖密,速發部的林正次。請暫停時間一下,對,等他們就位。"},{"start":10638.093,"end":10638.899,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、"},{"start":10652.5,"end":10678.793,"text":"好,我們在第一線,民眾是受害者的這個第一線那檢察官是打詐辦理打詐的第一線結果呢我們的檢察官改革團體建清減改他們提出說三大戰犯詐騙的三大戰犯是哪三大呢?金管會、數位部還有我們NCC所以"},{"start":10680.452,"end":10687.25,"text":"連第一線的檢察官都覺得我們行政部門行政效能不彰首先本席要請教金管會"},{"start":10688.53,"end":10712.888,"text":"我們大家都一直覺得檢察官也點名了無論是人頭帳戶、虛擬帳戶、網路銀行、電子支付、第三方支付或虛擬貨幣交易沒有一個跟金管會無關但是欠缺前端的行政監管那我請問你們到底哪些你們這些建議你們有沒有辦法改善"},{"start":10714.355,"end":10741.829,"text":"是,跟委員報告齁,那針對剛剛委員這邊提到說建金檢他有提到齁,就是那個虛擬貨幣的漲值。你可不可以檢答?是。像這一些你都不管被大家引起重怒了,那你這個怎麼辦?你們現在管不管,你就回答我管不管好不好?現在有在管,現在有在管。那未來的話,如果這個洗方法修正過的話,可以管制的強度會更強。好,喔所以你們都依賴這個法齁,好。OK,那再來。"},{"start":10743.388,"end":10766.53,"text":"NCC最大的問題就是你沒有管制電信業者腐爛出售的門號,所以有民眾被詐騙都是這些人頭賬號一副卡,第二類電信申辦的大量人頭企業門號橫行,才有辦法嗎?實際上是從去年開始,我們就已經頒布了執行,你們現在都管了是不是?對我通通都管了,因為就已經在限制了,從簡訊號碼這些,"},{"start":10768.852,"end":10777.38,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":10789.511,"end":10789.931,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":10803.932,"end":10814.822,"text":"我們也會負責監管所以速發部現在最後一個速發部你要發展一個什麼打詐通報查詢網請問跟我們內政部警政署的1165全民防騙網有什麼不同我們的分工是這樣子因為這個內政部警政署這邊是要針對那個已經發生犯罪甚至有財損的狀況他們會接受處理"},{"start":10827.013,"end":10854.352,"text":"他們是處理受害者。你們是預防的。我們是預防的。這不能整合起來嗎?為什麼我們的中央政府花錢都不手軟的?我們打造通報查詢網的目的就是要整合。我們會利用科技的方法當民眾報案的時候。你會整合內政部警政署的嗎?就是我們會自動分案,利用科技的方法。認為是已經要報案了,我們會趕快轉到165那個地方。所以你們雖然是兩個單位,但你會整合在一起就對了?是是是。"},{"start":10855.302,"end":10858.223,"text":"陳亭妃委員陳亭妃委員陳亭妃委員陳亭妃委員"},{"start":10886.096,"end":10905.163,"text":"委員好部長好我想在我們當時候打詐無法我們一起努力過然後通過了打詐無法可是現在發現了打詐無法是沒有辦法面對現在非常這個守法先進的這些詐騙所以我們必須用打詐專法"},{"start":10906.443,"end":10906.903,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":10926.542,"end":10937.437,"text":"是的,我們認為說經過我們的團隊的努力尤其是給了一個法令上面補足的空間之後應該可以有效的打擊尤其是在網路平台上面的這個詐騙的廣告或是詐騙的集團"},{"start":10940.765,"end":10962.023,"text":"因為現在他們的包括臉書他們最重要他們的申請單位就是他們公司設置都在國外所以我們如果在這樣的一個打詐專法之後我們就有辦法用我們的法令來要求他們嗎是的我們現在不管用什麼方式我們都希望他在台灣可以設立法律代表"},{"start":10963.783,"end":10968.787,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件 條例案件 條例案件 條例案件"},{"start":10990.745,"end":11013.471,"text":"對,我們會限制他的流量,然後如果他限制流量以後,他還是不願意配合的話,那我們可以進行封網的動作。好,第二個,就是說我們現在如何來協助金融電信網路業者來整個配合我們的打詐政策,因為你現在這個打詐,第一關都是警察,說真的去報案,可是"},{"start":11014.411,"end":11032.503,"text":"當警察拿到這個案子他還要報我們檢調單位說真的那個都緩不濟急啊錢都不知道流到哪裡去了那這個部分我們有辦法在這個打詐專法之後在第一時間去做這相關的時間序的一個掌握嗎"},{"start":11033.323,"end":11033.383,"text":"主席"},{"start":11052.734,"end":11054.215,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":11078.544,"end":11078.584,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":11097.023,"end":11104.972,"text":"等大家事實上發現的時候已經是來不及了我們再去報案你怎麼能夠讓這個所謂的這個跨國網路的這樣的一個輸送系統能夠掌控然後可以配合"},{"start":11112.38,"end":11121.406,"text":"是,跟蘇發部有關的部分就是在第34條跟第36條就是關於第三方支付還有電商遊戲等部分他們現在其實這種網路犯罪他們會把一筆錢從不同的帳號轉來轉去"},{"start":11127.389,"end":11142.223,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":11151.832,"end":11152.072,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":11174.372,"end":11180.996,"text":"禁止他不再去做這樣的一個所謂錢包的經營或是電子銀行的一個處理嗎?"},{"start":11183.463,"end":11205.159,"text":"現在目前這方面其實最嚴重的就是第三方支付的虛擬帳戶的問題那因為我們現在政府的法令對第三方支付業者的規定非常低沒有資本額的限制然後相關的所以事實上在很多的公司他在做工商登記的時候他就說他要做第三方支付總共有一萬多家那我們現在速發部就是"},{"start":11205.979,"end":11230.468,"text":"開始實習就是進行那個所謂的能量登錄就是說你真的要做這個事情的話你要必須來跟我們登錄然後我們做一些集合輔導結果實際來一萬多家裡面只有八十幾家來登記然後通過我們這個檢查的是認證的現在目前就五十幾家第一個就是數量大為減少然後再來就是說如果他們有任何那個做得不好的地方那我們就會通知銀行要求銀行配合"},{"start":11230.708,"end":11245.838,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":11247.581,"end":11248.422,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":11270.632,"end":11270.892,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":11298.132,"end":11301.414,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案。"},{"start":11317.941,"end":11328.708,"text":"然後很幸運在2月23號這個副委這個教父這個司法法制委員會審查然後在3月12號的我的第一次的施政總諮詢我也問當時這個我們的行政院長陳建仁那時候我問他說這個打詐專法何時能夠送到這個立法院來做審查"},{"start":11335.533,"end":11360.775,"text":"他那時候提到說希望在他卸任之前520之前能夠送到這個立法院那果然很有效率在5月9號的時候這個行政院就通過這個草案打詐釋法然後呢這個在5月17號的時候也交付委員會審查那我也謝謝主席今天特別安排這個打詐專法我們大家都希望在7月16號之前立法院休會之前這個打詐專法釋法"},{"start":11361.696,"end":11369.779,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":11390.287,"end":11403.302,"text":"一、二、四的詐騙廣告一樣如影隨形就出來了那我想請問一下次長如果我們這個打詐穿法通過之後因為你說要採實名制嘛對不對在你們這個草案裡面30條就是說你們要採這個實名制"},{"start":11404.443,"end":11423.671,"text":"然後在這個三十一條裡面廣告也要介入必要的訊息嘛那甚至三十條第二款也提到說這個平台業者要主動實施預防偵測辨識應對詐欺的防制計畫等等所以我請教一下如果這個打詐專法通過之後像類似這一種一夜市的詐騙廣告名人的詐騙廣告還會再出現嗎"},{"start":11426.893,"end":11441.704,"text":"打造專法通過以後,假冒黃仁勳身份證廣告就不會出現,因為他有這個義務必須去確認這是黃仁勳本人授權刊登的廣告。所以就採實名制之後,就不會再出現了。說到這個就提到說,現在採實名制的平台業者有哪些?"},{"start":11446.476,"end":11453.078,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":11468.462,"end":11494.019,"text":"跟委員補充,Google也有採實名制,因為政治的就是之前要求的深,所以這個投資的部分我們在這邊請他要做KYC,而且要實名制。好,那現在臉書,現在就是說不管是LINE、臉書還有Google,在打仗、專法通過之後都會要求他們要採實名制嘛,對不對?然後就是說像這一種,不論是黃榮勛、謝金河之類的,這種一夜市詐騙廣告就不會再出現了嗎?"},{"start":11494.719,"end":11522.493,"text":"是,這種假冒身份的業業式廣告應該就不會再出現了。應該?對,因為如果出現的話,他們就有法律的責任,這些廣告平台就有法律責任。好,因為我看你們相關的這個條文是有相關的法律的條文,也有罰則嘛,對不對?是,有罰則。好,那我再請教一下,我的這個法案裡面有兩項是行政院版沒有的啦。有一個就是說這個,如果你是犯打造專法、經判決有罪確定者、不得登記為公職人員的候選人,"},{"start":11523.453,"end":11546.988,"text":"那我不曉得說這個打詐專法通過之後就這部分來講咧就是因為他如果是屬於這個組織犯罪那我們在刑法裡面有規定啊如果是組織犯罪的話有排黑條款那如果是這一個在打詐專法通過之後那是屬於這一個組織犯罪的那他有沒有排黑條款不得參選不得這個為候選人有沒有這一條"},{"start":11551.226,"end":11558.741,"text":"沒有。沒有這一條。來。報告委員目前我們在這個打詐專法裡面並沒有把這條放進去裡面。"},{"start":11561.715,"end":11587.012,"text":"我是建議可以放進去。因為它是違反了刑法裡面有一條是有關詐欺組織犯罪的。這個應該是339條之四。339條之四的話,有下面四款,其中有一款是有犯三人以上的詐欺的話,"},{"start":11588.936,"end":11605.087,"text":"有還有在排二條款裡面吶?是那在公職選罷法裡面所規定的部分包括國安無法或者是處置犯罪吼或者是其他的貪污自罪條例裡面所以如果可以引用公職選罷法的話我們並不反對但是在目前的這個打詐專法裡面我們並沒有把它單獨盧列進去"},{"start":11607.707,"end":11630.028,"text":"我是建議因為我們在選罷法的排在條款裡面也有把詐欺把它列進去是不是要在打詐賺法裡面再列進去這個我們主條討論的時候我們再來討論第二個就是說有關詐欺量刑準則的制定因為大家都覺得說這個12次每次都判得很輕"},{"start":11631.329,"end":11653.19,"text":"判得很輕就是說我們這個沒有這個一定的量刑的準則所以說是不是能夠把這個詐欺量刑準則把它制定入法然後呢讓這一個法官在這個判刑的時候呢有一定的標準我們只有具體求刑具體求刑那具體求刑是多少"},{"start":11655.464,"end":11662.093,"text":"對、那我的意思啦就是說現在為什麼大家覺得說啊有些這個詐騙抓到的時候就判很輕欸這也是民怨啊"},{"start":11663.465,"end":11687.619,"text":"報告委員我想輕重我們要尊重法官的判決當然是尊重法官判決所以我才說是不是有一個量刑的一個標準啊量刑標準在司法院他們自己本身會制定一定的量刑的標準那我們檢察官的立場大概就我們會對這個案件的嚴重程度我們會在起訴的時候我們就會具體求刑"},{"start":11689.861,"end":11707.3,"text":"對,我的意思是說啦,這個司法院這個還有個刑事案件妥適量刑罰草案嘛,這個目前還沒有嘛。那我的意思是說,因為大家對於這個詐騙抓到侵犯,有很多真的是侵犯喔,我有一個數字就是說好像是判不到半年的大概占五成以上。"},{"start":11708.325,"end":11728.394,"text":"都是輕判,所以我才會建議說是不是在我們這個待會在具體條文的時候討論的時候能夠把這一個刑事案件這個量刑的這個標準也把他納進去啦。當然那法官在判刑的時候他有一個至少有一個標準給他準則,就是不是全部都是法官的自由行政。"},{"start":11729.154,"end":11740.72,"text":"貿委員這個在立法上比較少見到,可能要請司法院的人來說明一下,因為比較少這樣子放下去,因為這個好像是法官的審判合計的問題。 那司法院要不要做個說明呢?我的問題在於說齁,因為現在大家都認為說齁,抓到都輕判。"},{"start":11749.858,"end":11764.768,"text":"那是不是能夠有一個量刑的一個準則啦?包委員我們之前有一個那個《妥適量刑法》的草案齁那在上個會期因為沒有審查所以就特為那個司法院這邊繼續研議齁"},{"start":11766.289,"end":11788.807,"text":"那我在想說因為量刑這個部分涉及到比較多的層面啦他不適合只是用一個條文就來顯示他比較適合用一個通盤性的研議的方式那而且他整個研議的機關也必須要獨立化所以是不是有一個條文就能夠把它定一個量刑準則我覺得這邊恐怕會有一些疑慮啦好那所以你們這個還沒有在這個會期也沒有再送過來我們這個會期有繼續要再研議"},{"start":11790.208,"end":11818.009,"text":"好啊,那我的問題在於說,其實部長我們都來自民意代表,就是說有時候這個都侵犯,那侵犯如何顯現在這個條文裡面,不要讓民眾有認為說每次抓到那個都是侵犯,這個精神能夠在討論的時候能夠放進去這樣子。是,李委員用心良苦,我們來努力。我們都知道說大家都有很大的民怨,要怎麼樣解決民怨也是我們應該做的。好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席。"},{"start":11821.291,"end":11849.714,"text":"好,謝謝我們李昆城委員的執行,謝謝。下一位請王洪威委員執行。好,謝謝主席。我請內政部劉部長。好,劉部長。訴發部林次長。好,林次長。法務部徐次長。"},{"start":11850.407,"end":11851.808,"text":"李卓人議員這次打詐司法我相信一定會得到跨黨派的支持因為我想打詐事實上是現在台灣人民就是最期盼的事情但是即使沒有這打詐司法我們還是有打詐辦公室而且我們打詐國家隊成立了這麼久"},{"start":11880.101,"end":11898.59,"text":"剛才李昆城委員也特別提到像這次黃仁勳他到了台灣當然有得到媒體的高度重視那麼立刻我們就可以看到在社群平台裡面就出現了黃仁勳的詐騙的網頁事實上包含我們的經濟部長郭部長來自於企業界"},{"start":11907.253,"end":11925.086,"text":"多麼離譜他還沒有上任然後就立刻出現我們經濟部部長的一個詐騙的網頁所以還有比如說像蘇之鋒他現在也在台灣也是一樣"},{"start":11926.363,"end":11950.272,"text":"我們真的就覺得不經納悶我們這個打架辦公室即便沒有這個詐騙司法難道面對這些層出不窮的這些詐騙的網站難道就完全束手無策嗎比如右下角是我昨天看PTT的時候突然看到一個老蟹公益社團這就是蟹金河"},{"start":11951.892,"end":11975.998,"text":"審訊科社長其實也非常支持民進黨但是可能對他這幾年最大的抱怨就是為什麼假他知名的這些詐騙網頁就是如春風吹又生沒有辦法殺不掉你殺了一個又有十個殺了十個又有上百個我們真的難道打架是法"},{"start":11976.818,"end":11987.765,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":11989.152,"end":12014.437,"text":"報告委員在打詐釋法通過之前我們短期的做法基本上有兩個第一個我們就設立一個公眾人物這些名人的通報的e-mail好像說那個謝社長還有那個我們這個郭部長他那邊就是遇到這種狀況的話我們馬上跟他做確認確認以後我們就會馬上去通報LINE或者是臉書教求他們盡快去上你們是不是每天都接到通報啊"},{"start":12014.957,"end":12042.946,"text":"是,每天都是因為真的也有一些企業界的在反映他一個禮拜每一天都要再通報煩不生煩啊是那我們的策略基本上兩個一個除了這個打砸司法這個法律的手段以外我們利用科技的手段那我們現在資安院每天會利用AI的方式去掃描網路這些社群平台然後去撿去找到那些可疑的詐騙的訊息然後我們在做人工篩選以後也會立刻"},{"start":12043.126,"end":12051.833,"text":"我覺得你們在末單去做這個只是累死大家而已。我覺得一定要在前端。你知道像這個黃榮勳有人直接的就寫信給臉書說你們都是這些都已經都是詐騙集團臉書回覆給他說這個沒有違反他的廣告原則"},{"start":12063.622,"end":12064.523,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":12085.282,"end":12088.564,"text":"司法法制委員會新政府上來之前我就特別提到你們在這次司法裡面沒有針對律師你知道我們現在的律師涉入這些詐騙集團越來越多"},{"start":12101.656,"end":12109.08,"text":"知法犯法你今天去打開這些網頁很多律師呢他就做廣告說一定能幫你脫罪呀他成功幫你怎麼樣怎麼樣的可以減輕你的這個這個罪行啦或者幫你脫罪那所以剛才才講的為什麼檢調警察辛辛苦苦的去抓抓完了之後到了法院然後輕輕鬆鬆的他們就通通都被放出來"},{"start":12127.29,"end":12145.846,"text":"那因為這些律師很厲害。好,這些律師不只如此,還直接涉詐成為這些犯罪集團的首腦之一。他們還可以成立一個律師團,然後每一個車手派給你一個律師,然後互相串聯。然後知道這些車手,那麼你的辯護政策,你掌握的資訊,然後回報到詐騙集團的首腦。結果現在呢,你看辦了這麼多的詐騙案件,都跟律師有關。"},{"start":12155.254,"end":12170.428,"text":"所以事實上我已經提案我希望我們這個法務部也應該提案好來我們看下面我認為啊律師法官檢察官涉案這些知法犯法的人應該最佳一等"},{"start":12170.968,"end":12191.255,"text":"一定要罪加一等,不然他們不會怕的。所以我提案裡面呢,就是對於射詐的律師,在律師法裡面做修正。比如講,你只要判一審有罪,就是組織犯罪條例第三條第一項,就是跟詐騙有關的。你一審有罪,然後你就應該除名處分。我們現在縣市首長就這樣,一審有罪,這個縣市首長就被撤銷了。"},{"start":12200.686,"end":12215.298,"text":"政治人物應該是有這樣的一個責任,那律師呢?是不是應該這樣子?法委員,我們這個禮拜就是要開會來檢討律師法這一部分的修正。好,那你們大概準備什麼時候會提出修正?有招律師公會來的。"},{"start":12216.519,"end":12243.336,"text":"我們有請那個律師公會也派人來討論這個部分我們這裡我們已經要開會討論了好非常好我希望能夠競訴因為打詐是法我覺得有法就先行沒有問題因為我們全力支持但是律師其實法官檢察官知法犯法你只要有涉入我覺得絕對不能寬戴好不好法務部這一個部分責任把它負起來好謝謝"},{"start":12245.423,"end":12247.186,"text":"王宏威委員致信鄭天才"},{"start":12272.763,"end":12295.59,"text":"主席、各位委員、請部長。政委員好。部長好。這個詐騙非常非常的嚴重。然後這個整個各種招數都有了。"},{"start":12296.601,"end":12323.323,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件, 其中一宗罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯"},{"start":12325.492,"end":12352.913,"text":"整合各部會然後就自己所主管的來去加強的去防範最主要是那個各支各支怎麼樣能夠不讓詐騙集團了解所以這個部分有時候我常講徒法不足以執行尤其是我當過公務員30年真的是徒法不足以執行"},{"start":12354.127,"end":12381.56,"text":"就以內政部來講主要是警政署警政署的人力也有限都是靠警政署啦但是前面的防範措施不足的話為什麼這些詐騙期的會有那些個資呢對不對有他的丈夫騙取丈夫最主要第一個他有電話電話還告訴你還知道他的名字"},{"start":12383.069,"end":12407.027,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":12409.431,"end":12435.522,"text":"他有了這個賬戶之後又去騙其他的騙來騙去所以這個部分最主要就是說要先去了解這些詐騙集團是怎麼樣去去做這樣的犯罪所以警政署這邊你就是要去做分析你這邊提到了你們的成果你們的成果"},{"start":12436.141,"end":12455.391,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":12461.857,"end":12481.583,"text":"因為人力臺東花蓮離島人力有限所以就比例就很低所以這個部分人力也要去加強我們現在再另外談一個議題今天有另外一個議題宗教團體以自然的名義登記不動產處理暫行條例111年本席4月15號也有提這個條例我當初的條文"},{"start":12490.151,"end":12516.196,"text":"左邊這個條五年內就是今天要修正的這個條文第五條我當初就是寫五年內當初沒有被採納就按照行政院版兩年果然馬上又要修正兩年當然不可能啊所以因為時間的關係請內政部提供"},{"start":12520.39,"end":12545.211,"text":"這從這個這個條例啊暫行條例施行到現在到底完成的如何相關的我們在報告的時候有把這個數目字報告不是數目字哦你要做一些分析啊包括什麼呢包括原住民的啊宗教團體啊然後怎麼樣的那些團體然後尤其是這個第第4條哈"},{"start":12546.721,"end":12570.681,"text":"第四條的部分到底農舍的現在農舍有放在這裡面耕地耕地有放在這裡面耕地耕地的部分是到底是多少當初我提的條文沒有被採納的就是農舍沒有放進去原住民保育地沒有放進去像這些怎麼樣去做限制登記"},{"start":12572.219,"end":12599.353,"text":"所以不是數字而已喔然後你就是說你現在完成的是包含了哪些類型包含了哪些類型這樣的話才能夠去檢討到底應該延幾年啊然後是不是很多送案的是多少案但是他沒有辦法完成的原因是什麼所以這個部分才能夠去有效的去檢討"},{"start":12600.66,"end":12628.755,"text":"好請我們內政部匯報提供資料給我們鄭天才委員最後你看這個現行條文現行條文的第6款第6條的第6款要這些不動產登記名義人或是前提繼承人同意書啊這很難的我的條文是沒有這個事實上按照第4款現行條文你看第4款"},{"start":12629.833,"end":12653.406,"text":"企業書、公證書或其他組織認定不動產為宗教團體實質所有之文件或資料就可以了已經足以證明的話你還要這個不動產這些自然人的這些同意書當然他不會給你嘛所以沒有辦法通過是不是因為這個因素?絕對是這個因素"},{"start":12655.58,"end":12667.989,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":12685.097,"end":12714.068,"text":"那速發部跟行政院打詐辦公室也各嗎?好,我們劉部長還有我們的林次長還有行政院主任部長打詐大家都很關心本席也看到過去您在內政委員會有都持續努力的來做質詢那其中本席一直想要請教的是現在網路詐騙那麼多的氾濫然後還有那麼多的這種詐騙的廣告持續都被投放那真的是現在沒有任何工具管道能夠來阻止嗎?"},{"start":12714.892,"end":12715.272,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":12728.004,"end":12749.252,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":12752.366,"end":12777.349,"text":"他直接把蔡英文前總統、賴清德總統、蕭美琴副總統的照片直接放上去拿來當成是詐騙的工具這就是詐騙不是嗎來然後也有把這些新聞電視台的相關的這個主持人全都放上去部長我再講一個更直接本席上禮拜有看到"},{"start":12778.68,"end":12805.4,"text":"本席這邊有揭露還有那種二次詐騙剛我在下面搜尋您的新聞今天早上的備詢的發言的時候還出現你的新聞上下出現了詐騙集團投放的詐騙廣告劉士芳下面是劉士芳說釋法聯動可以嚇阻詐騙就上面他中間穿插的就是網路詐騙資金追回這就二次詐騙啊"},{"start":12807.366,"end":12832.234,"text":"更惡劣的是我沒有辦法放在這邊啦因為是我剛剛在搜尋更惡劣的是他直接把我們165反詐騙變成是他們logo放在他們的網站上會不會覺得這樣的一個動作非常囂張根本就是跟公權力開戰那我們也已經講了兩年、三年、好幾年了結果這樣的一個詐騙還是層出不窮而且越演越烈"},{"start":12834.073,"end":12857.305,"text":"部長您看到這樣有心裡作何感想?165反詐騙變成是詐騙集團的一個LOGO。其他委員也有這樣的質詢,我想還是一樣道高一尺磨高一壯,但是我們如果有比較好的法律基礎的話,我相信我們的四個部會合在一起應該還是有這個決心來打擊,尤其他投放這種假的部分,名人的部分都是我們未來要救援追溯的對象。"},{"start":12857.93,"end":12886.661,"text":"好部長所以我現在只很明確的跟你請教因為之前打詐無法的時候那個時候政府單位那時候你還是立法委員那時候打詐無法的時候政府單位有跟我們拍胸部保證啊現在無法通過了可以了可以嚇阻結果沒有1.0的時候也說可以嚇阻沒有1.5的時候也說可以嚇阻那現在本席值很明確的講在這一次打詐四法裡面這一些是不是能夠讓他小審逆擊"},{"start":12889.377,"end":12915.302,"text":"姜蕾蕾:「我想我們不敢講銷聲匿跡,但是我要跟委員報告部分的,如果我們沒有法律的話,一定會更猖獗。 如果我們沒有法律的話,一定會更猖獗。所以你要相信我們的政府,包括中央的地方,不要一起來努力。」 姜蕾蕾:「部長,如果說你這樣講的話,本身很難接受,是因為,那這樣子意思就是說我們這次的修法還不夠囉?我們這次的修法的力度、強度還是說我們已經想到的預防,因為這些都是老問題啊。」"},{"start":12916.724,"end":12929.326,"text":"這些不是新問題。你看,連這名人詐騙從一開始的時候,哇,賴清德總統的這個肖像被濫用,大家很關注,到現在丟出來沒有半個人覺得,這習以為常了。"},{"start":12930.828,"end":12931.449,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":12949.764,"end":12977.02,"text":"在我們這個道路上打廣告嗎?不能。我們當然不能。那如果說不能的話,那為什麼能夠忍受詐騙集團在網路上打廣告?我們也不能忍受啊。是。所以我現在只是請教的是說,這一次的這個修法之後是不是能夠讓這一些廣告消神匿跡?我們盡量來努力。我們一定會非常的努力。那最後,部長請教,能不能在這次完了之後我們做一個大規模的這個網路上的一個掃黑?"},{"start":12978.442,"end":13001.563,"text":"就是如同說我們有這個專案嘛就譬如說我們在春節有治安專案那我們這一次修法如果說順利通過我們是不是能夠定來網路上一個大規模的一個掃黑掃除詐騙至少說我們用一切辦法來去把這些網路上不要再讓社群媒體上我覺得這真的是非常諷刺的狀況部長能不能宣示"},{"start":13002.043,"end":13018.549,"text":"是,紅委員所提的應該是說網路上面掃除這種詐欺、詐騙的危害啦。原則上跟黑好像有點不太一樣。就是掃除這些詐騙、掃黑嘛。我們盡量朝這個方向來努力。盡量朝這個方向。部長為什麼會提到這一點啊?因為這個是你"},{"start":13020.677,"end":13041.318,"text":"二零二三年質詢林右昌部長的話你那時候站在這個位置就是要求林右昌部長是說要來做一次大規模的掃黑啦是是那本席現在就是拜託既然您那時候是立法委員你是監督者現在您是主事者我沒有懷疑你要打擊詐騙的決心我沒有懷疑政府因為我們跟"},{"start":13042.279,"end":13062.367,"text":"政府都一樣就是希望讓台灣2350萬人都不要再免於受到詐騙的困難所以我們當然是希望有權利者能夠來做一個大規模的掃蕩把這一些詐騙集團真的在網路上的廣告都不要再出現了這是一個很好的方向我們來努力好謝謝我們洪孟凱委員的執行謝謝好謝謝那下一位我們樓庭偉委員"},{"start":13073.356,"end":13089.371,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長以及出發林次還有打雜辦公室李主任。好,林主任。好,部長。部長請問你有接過詐騙訊息嗎?我的親友有。"},{"start":13092.213,"end":13120.502,"text":"噢!部長沒有根據草根影響力文教基金會去年5月公布的一項調查全台僅6%的民眾沒有接到詐騙電話跟簡訊部長沒有接過詐騙那真的是6%的天選之人詐騙更在網路世界橫行但數位發展部成立之後對反詐的詐騙著力非常的少剛剛部長有說相信政府我們都願意相信政府但是看到打詐辦公室的成立1.0、1.5我們看到了整個效力不髒"},{"start":13121.522,"end":13125.167,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":13139.025,"end":13144.71,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":13158.36,"end":13185.768,"text":"我想我自己本身在最近也被成為這個網路詐騙的一個使用範例拿著我們的頭像去做這個相關的不管是家庭代工的招攬或者是一些工作介紹然後打著我們的名號我想我只是一個小咖但是連我這麼小咖都會被去用到詐騙集團的一個使用範例更何況是剛剛所提出的總統副總統或知名媒體人我想去年截至11月"},{"start":13187.298,"end":13191.801,"text":"我們詐騙的件數已經達到3萬5千件詐騙金額達79億這個案件越來越多連交通罰單都可以有詐騙還有什麼不能騙這個交通罰單的詐騙你有掌握嗎?"},{"start":13201.886,"end":13202.907,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":13220.277,"end":13246.168,"text":"對所以我相信警察有辨識力但民眾沒有但台灣的詐騙到底有多猖獗到底猖獗的原因是什麼首要詐騙的關鍵原因就是全民的個資外洩手機網路帳號都落入詐騙集團的手中所以這些人可以輕而易舉的拿到全民的個資去做散佈去做宣傳去進而達到他們去聯繫這個您覺得呢"},{"start":13248.749,"end":13248.909,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":13270.265,"end":13279.511,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":13295.882,"end":13312.876,"text":"在法制的作業裡面任何一部法律的提出在行政院審查之前都會有做各部會針對修正的重點做法規的影響評估也就是法制作業規定一定要負法規影響的評估請問詐欺犯罪危害防制條例這個草案有沒有做法規的影響評估"},{"start":13313.957,"end":13337.11,"text":"我們的羅政務委員他當時在召集各單位的處理的時候一定有做這樣的討論影響評估會後可不可以給我一些相關的資料有做這樣的討論但是我需要去看一下說他們的討論是不是變成一個是一個報告好沒關係如果有的話討論的一些過程也可以讓我們知道一下我想一夜市的詐騙網頁未來您覺得有沒有機會可以封網接貨多久可以下架該詐騙網站請數位部好嗎"},{"start":13340.839,"end":13361.324,"text":"關於一夜市的那個詐騙廣告最多的就是仿冒名人的部分那我們很非常希望說在這個打詐專法通過以後那我們會要求實名制就是以後這種詐騙廣告就不會再出現了因為如果有人想要仿冒這些名人譬如說謝金河董事長的或者黃仁勳先生的那個董事長的名字的話這我才知道"},{"start":13361.724,"end":13382.962,"text":"是那很多常常都講說因為他的臉書不在台灣啊都在境外啊無法可管今天打炸新司法落山獨就管得到嗎抓得到嗎沒有錯啊我們在事實上在第27條到第33條裡面啊就是有講到就是說他必須落地他必須有法律代表人而且法律代表人目前業者商討進度為何執法的訂定期程"},{"start":13384.142,"end":13398.778,"text":"基本上那個現在是連美商跟日商大部分都在台灣都已經有法律代表人或是分公司了這個比較沒有問題那另外就是但是對他們來講第一個他處理速度太慢所以我們現在有這個"},{"start":13399.859,"end":13400.099,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":13430.823,"end":13433.325,"text":"蘿婷緯委員執行審柏洋委員執行刑事庭副庭長"},{"start":13457.681,"end":13458.662,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":13480.442,"end":13504.807,"text":"第一個我先直接用講的話跑得有點慢就是說這個因為3394它本身就是一個加重詐欺那現在打詐專法這邊就是三人以上再加上利用境外激防詐騙這邊又再加重二分之一它等於是加重了兩次二分之一那我覺得這當然有兩個疑點第一個就是在法定刑上面連續加重兩次二分之一到底合不合宜這是第一個第二個就是因為三人以上這件事情"},{"start":13505.487,"end":13528.895,"text":"在 譬如說我們在強盜在竊盜他很多時候會有三人以上是因為他有一定的身體的危險性啊等等之類的齁那我們在交通詐欺一開始設計三人以上我覺得本來就應該要打一個問號在這一次打詐穿防又把這個跟激防兩個加起來好像看起來是因為要對應組織型的犯罪但因為根據研究目前來講如果是中國那邊的詐騙組織型的很多"},{"start":13530.856,"end":13559.616,"text":"但在台灣的這邊的詐騙是組合型的比較多組合型就是那種他一年可能就解散的那種詐騙集團那一年就解散的那種詐騙集團他跟這種三人以上本來要加重的這個理由其實有點不太合所以我這邊是建議我覺得我不知道司法院這邊的意見那就在逐條的時候可能是要不要稍微考慮一下這種連續加重兩次二分之一的問題以及他背後的理由到底充不充分如果可以的話在逐條的時候看能不能跟各位討論看看"},{"start":13560.376,"end":13565.823,"text":"司法院本來這邊的意見大概是什麼樣子?這邊我們認為是他並沒有並沒有連續加重因為他其實就是一個行分的特別的規定"},{"start":13580.994,"end":13605.249,"text":"對,但因為339之4本身就已經是一個加重詐欺罪了。那339之4它本身也是一個刑分的獨立的規定,它並不是說加重刑刑的規定。對,它不是加重刑刑,但是因為339之4它已經比339更重了嘛。所以我舉個例子,譬如說假設他今天是只犯339,他沒有到加重詐欺喔。但是他的金額本身呢,也是到這一個叫做什麼,詐騙行為,就是符合這次打詐專法。"},{"start":13606.67,"end":13632.072,"text":"他沒有在三年以上所以他不會落入到右邊這邊的家中那這個時候就會形成一個問題就是說他有可能按照原本的刑分的規定他沒有落入到339之次他就不會到這邊來所以他只有五年以下但是他相較於這一個只要是三年以上利用境外他馬上交通二分之一會變成說他其實他的那個犯罪的程度其實單純的339然後金額又高的狀況他反而又不會到這一邊來"},{"start":13633.394,"end":13648.853,"text":"一邊會加太多,一邊會不橫貧。這個不橫貧的事情可能在逐條的時候必須要把這樣的一個事實告訴大家,不然的話這個時候會有輕重失衡的問題。前面有委員提到良心的問題,但我覺得可能不要到良心,可能是在這邊的規定要思考一下。"},{"start":13651.196,"end":13675.917,"text":"這第一個 第二個就是假釋這一邊就是說在後面這個我直接用講的或者跑得有點慢就是說在減刑這邊的規定因為本來有這一個所謂的這一個就是因為我們是希望他能夠自首嘛 對不對所以他會有一些減刑的規定等等之類的但是我們在假釋這一邊因為我們用了三政法案的一個精神那這邊我會有一個建議就是說呢"},{"start":13676.437,"end":13695.4,"text":"因為今天假釋這件事情他到底該假釋還是不要假釋他的重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛所以他的監獄的表現跟他今天到底是不是犯了幾次的詐欺罪這應該是分開的兩件事這是第一個第二個就是我們都設計了這樣的一個簡型的規定但他第三次的時候他一定不會想要來講啦"},{"start":13696.241,"end":13719.455,"text":"因為按照這樣的一個方式呢,因為它會落入到假釋裡面的這種三證法案。那它一旦進來的話,那你設計那個解刑規定在第三次的時候其實就沒有作用。所以是不是我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的一個立場,但是顯然在這邊利用這種類似那個之前的強制治療的這種三證法案的精神,它其實不符合我們想要打詐這件事情。那是不是不知道司法院這邊的意見是如何?"},{"start":13720.415,"end":13738.88,"text":"副委員吼,因為畢竟假設這個部分是參考美國的三政法案的法制啦,那這個法制到底妥不妥當,是不是適合吼,我覺得各有說法啦,那只是說在這一次我們考量到說如果是一般的這個電信詐欺的話,的確他的再犯可能性是比較高的。"},{"start":13739.46,"end":13765.225,"text":"那這種災犯可能性比較高的情況之下是不是適合在一般的假釋門檻到的時候就可以假釋還是要如同說這個這個法務部這邊所提出來的這個三證條款的規定吼我們的確是會有一些斟酌的餘地啦但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理啦對因為美國三證最初的精神是在良心加重並不是在假釋這一邊是我們在移植的時候呢把它一直放到比如說強制治療啊等等之類的"},{"start":13766.025,"end":13792.788,"text":"因為刑法第77條也有類似的規定。但是在犯可能性這件事情它跟它譬如說在獄中的表現等等之類的它是綜合作判斷嘛所以我們不能夠預設立場因為這等於是在你在一開始的時候預設立場它的在犯可能性然後它在假設的規定作為改變那這個其實在法理上聽起來是有點不同的啦所以我覺得在逐條的時候這件事情可能要考慮一下因為我今天沒有辦法討論逐條所以就是這兩件事情希望司法院能夠注意一下"},{"start":13793.148,"end":13802.152,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":13819.595,"end":13842.791,"text":"黃媛豪市部長、市長我想我們都很樂見打詐的法律盡快的來通過那當然民眾黨也有提版本我今天想跟兩位就教的就是目前我們做了非常多的限制比如說金融機構、第三方支付還有電信業者、網路廣告平台業電商業跟網路連線的遊戲業這些有被納入管理"},{"start":13847.014,"end":13874.815,"text":"但是現在部長也知道我們現在的詐欺是無所不在而且層出不窮目前為止110年的LINE詐欺佔網路詐欺案件的高達20%也就是說LINE是一個通訊平台它單純的只是個人跟個人之間的聯絡但是不同年齡層使用LINE通訊軟體的受騙方式未滿18歲的幾乎都是假愛情假交友"},{"start":13875.575,"end":13897.914,"text":"十八到六十歲的都是投資詐欺。六十歲以上的都是猜猜我是誰。所以賴詐欺其實已經成為網絡詐欺裡面百分之二十的數量。我想問一下次長跟部長。我們今天通過假設通過這個打詐專法能不能夠處理這樣子的詐騙行為。這樣子的業者或這樣子的詐騙行徑。"},{"start":13903.882,"end":13921.112,"text":"關於那個Online的詐騙這個部分那個我們現在在不在這個法律可以處罰的對象是可以在處罰的對象裡面在怎麼樣的狀況可以處罰他如果說他這個訊息裡面有明顯的詐騙訊息的話我們可以依照這個法令就是要求他們儘快把他下架他只是個平台他會被你處罰嗎"},{"start":13923.849,"end":13940.326,"text":"我們現在如果說他第一個就是說如果我們已經發現是詐騙了我們通知他他一定得他一定在處理這就是問題說現在的問題是很多被害人在第一時間發現被盜的帳號賴帳號但是詐騙集團利用客服下班的時候"},{"start":13941.027,"end":13953.954,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件"},{"start":13966.741,"end":13981.611,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":13991.272,"end":14010.877,"text":"委員說的沒錯,現在詐騙集團都一直利用時間差的方式,就是在通報跟下架這個中間的時間,他們去造成傷害,而且把那個被詐騙的人把他轉到其他地方去找,我們更沒有辦法去找的地方。所以我們現在除了法律的手段之外,我們會利用科技的手段,"},{"start":14011.317,"end":14015.88,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":14039.502,"end":14045.027,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":14064.424,"end":14064.885,"text":"黃秀芳委員主席"},{"start":14083.063,"end":14099.518,"text":"黃委員好。 黃委員好。部長好。部長今天就這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例那本席來自地方其實我們這個服務的這個選民非常多就是被詐騙那其實我們最近也碰到一位"},{"start":14100.098,"end":14114.641,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":14125.703,"end":14127.704,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":14155.698,"end":14172.664,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":14183.848,"end":14203.046,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":14206.469,"end":14228.124,"text":"謝謝黃委員黃委員您所碰到的狀況我們也都有知道第一個就是說未來的打詐中心我們的165反詐騙諮詢專線是24小時的所以有一些老人家他不曉得165怎麼打所以我現在就是可能我們要拜託民政系統還有警政系統或者是宗教團體的志工系統盡量到很多比較偏鄉地區去宣傳你如果有事情165要先看一看這是一個"},{"start":14232.887,"end":14233.207,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":14259.764,"end":14277.638,"text":"是,報告委員我們目前數位部一方面是我們對於那個詐騙網路詐騙的方法一方面是尋求法律的支援另外一方面是用科技的方法那我們希望說用那個科技的方法每天去掃描用AI的方法去掃描說那個"},{"start":14278.238,"end":14296.032,"text":"大型網路上有多少的詐騙。依照我們資安院目前的做法每天可以掃描到5000多則的疑似詐騙的廣告。我們經過人工過濾以後會直接送給大型的網路平台像是LINE或者是像Facebook。我們現在還需要法律上的支援就是因為我們通報給這些"},{"start":14297.293,"end":14311.953,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":14314.717,"end":14319.981,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案》案。 ﹝審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案》案。"},{"start":14336.331,"end":14336.551,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":14353.574,"end":14375.128,"text":"貼上網站查詢是否疑似詐騙政府處理到什麼程度是已經確定為詐騙是不是已經通知網路廣告平台是不是已經移除我們這個都會讓民眾有個地方可以去通報可以去查詢所以你們這個還沒有完成之前一般的民眾像現在那如果是看到的話他要怎麼處理"},{"start":14375.748,"end":14401.921,"text":"OK 那在那個之前那我們有兩個部分的做法一方面我們就是還是努力的跟那個LINE還有那個Facebook這樣的平台努力跟他們溝通希望他們縮短他們處理的時間那另外我們已經成立一個就是名人或公眾人物的那個打詐的通報專用E-mail address他遇到這種詐騙他可以跟我們講我們馬上就會轉通知LINE跟Facebook要求他們立即處理"},{"start":14403.102,"end":14424.478,"text":"好,謝謝。那我是不是可以請部長,因為在地方我們的警局或者是分局、派出所,他們都會有一個治安會報、治安座談,到各個社區去做宣導。那我希望就是說,未來我們也希望這個治安的宣導部分,到每個社區應該還要針對詐騙的這個部分。然後詐騙的手法推陳出新,我覺得應該也要由警政單位這邊"},{"start":14434.527,"end":14455.386,"text":"委員的建議非常的好齁,我們一定來遵照,而且我們把案例告訴這些偏鄉的老人家,讓他們知道怎麼樣可以防範。好,謝謝。謝謝我們黃秀芳委員。好,我們下一位羅志強委員,羅志強委員,羅志強委員不在。楊瓊英委員,楊瓊英委員。好,謝謝。"},{"start":14461.402,"end":14465.545,"text":"謝謝主席,楊主委發言,我們再請部長。好,請部長。楊委員你好。部長好。這個打詐讓我們很憂心。是。所以政府會成立打詐國家隊,打詐無法,一直在嚴厲。但是我們似乎發覺說,口號越多,那案件越多。就甚至連看鎖鎖。"},{"start":14492.759,"end":14496.825,"text":"連這個監獄裡頭所增加的人數以詐欺犯為主。"},{"start":14498.492,"end":14525.349,"text":"這個讓我們用心末端來看整個過程那這怎麼辦呢本席也看到今天謝謝今天的主席來直接來討論這個打詐無法要怎麼去做打詐釋法要怎麼去做所以我們看到從111年6月份開始打詐綱領開始我們發覺到這個問題的嚴重性除了在你們所說的宣導教育面、賭詐"},{"start":14527.23,"end":14537.18,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":14548.257,"end":14562.014,"text":"我抓到這個人我們很辛苦的警察檢警調抓到了但是沒錢對於民眾來講是一大損失是一大損失抓到了沒錢沒用"},{"start":14563.137,"end":14572.463,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":14579.318,"end":14602.202,"text":"人口販運的防治、洗錢防治法、個人的個資保護、證券投資信託以及他的顧問法,這一些的法律出來也就因應目前社會所需要,真的是所需要。我們也看到你們所提出的"},{"start":14604.543,"end":14627.615,"text":"這個1.5版以減害為主本席認為這非常的消極因為你的三面檢政策減少接觸減少誤信減少損害甚至剛剛部長你回答的要到偏鄉讓志工去告訴這些歐巴桑歐里桑他知道165怎麼打打炸的這個要怎麼打數位部也努力在推動預計要有這個"},{"start":14630.436,"end":14637.044,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":14644.997,"end":14660.763,"text":"我們要怎麼辦?請教部長。在預防面的部分,其實真的是要全民一起來防止才有用。跟委員非常清楚,不是只有偏鄉,包括很多在都會地區,尤其是善用這個網路的人,"},{"start":14661.443,"end":14670.13,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":14687.924,"end":14713.371,"text":"智慧分析的決策、它支援的系統還有我們自己165反詐騙系統的一個平台那這一些如果資料流出去哇那更嚴重喔有沒有圍堵有沒有圍堵這邊的資料會流出去不會啊這個是我們只是收案的窗口啊普黨你新聞都沒在看啊新聞都沒在看啊"},{"start":14714.781,"end":14741.678,"text":"所以我提出這一點也就是陳儒AI的系統可以去正面偵防詐騙但是他也有一個反向所以當建議給部長當你在思考問題的時候根源從哪裡來您剛才一直回答說怎麼可能會流出去有流出去啊社會新聞你知道啊所以在這樣的一個情況之下"},{"start":14742.819,"end":14758.182,"text":"我們希望就陳寧你說的,全面大家一起來,全面一起來,全面的圍堵。這才可以,才是真正的這個,這個全面的圍堵。您的看法呢?警政署你要不要說說?"},{"start":14759.806,"end":14788.568,"text":"那剛剛委員所提的就是不管我們的異化啦、刑案的這個資料系統或者是165這個都是我們的這個公務的資料絕對嚴禁流出,流出就違法了所以這部分我們事實是會做嚴謹的絕對不會把我們的這些資料流向出去那未來那我們這個打詐是否過之後我們各部委會協同來讓打詐這件事讓人民有感"},{"start":14789.888,"end":14813.681,"text":"對,因為警察很辛苦所以我給部長說的就是說希望正面反面你都要去思考因為從你還沒就任部長以前我相信你當了民意代表的時候你也認知到真的很普遍民眾很傷腦筋所以我們也希望介於您在行政在"},{"start":14815.285,"end":14836.725,"text":"民意基礎上面都非常的充足可以正面反面的一個思考讓民眾真正的是有感要不然真的我看到連監獄、看守所的人數增加都以詐騙犯、詐欺犯為主那民眾情何以堪呢 對不對所以我們一起加油好不好 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員的諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":14841.6,"end":14868.265,"text":"下一位張家勁委員張家勁委員張家勁委員不在我們鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在林子英委員林子英委員林子英委員不在曾振銓曾振銓曾振銓委員不在李伯義李伯義李伯義委員不在黃國昌黃國昌委員請執行"},{"start":14882.227,"end":14901.592,"text":"二、謝謝主席。麻煩有請內政部的部長、法務部的政事、還有司法院刑事廳的代表、副廳長或者是法官等等都可以。黃委員好。黃委員好。"},{"start":14909.299,"end":14926.755,"text":"三位好時間的關係不宜問候我直接切入正題詐騙對台灣人民所造成的傷害我相信不用再贅述了從事前的預防到事後的追陳都很重要今天我們提出打詐專法"},{"start":14928.339,"end":14951.847,"text":"我非常重視一個面向就是不管是台灣民眾黨我們在一開始的時候辦的公定會以及我接下來到刑事警察局到調查局我們去拜訪希望他們能夠說明在打詐作業當中他們所面臨的困境其中一個大家共同的心聲是台灣對詐欺犯的處罰"},{"start":14954.608,"end":14978.533,"text":"真的太輕了導致在台版柬埔災案當中那個主嫌攔到32個加重詐欺罪一天的勞都沒有做32個加重詐欺罪一天的勞都沒有做這件事情到底怎麼發生的我們的司法體系是怎麼樣把一個小弟養成熟腦從小弟變熟腦32個加重詐欺罪"},{"start":14982.615,"end":15004.077,"text":"結果竟然一天的勞動沒有做所以今天我看到你們針對高額財產的損害加重行車立法的體力上我支持我支持第二個部分詐欺獲取的財物達一千萬以上的加重處罰嘛到一億以上的時候應不應該也要加重處罰來請教部長"},{"start":15008.479,"end":15033.91,"text":"到一千萬以上加重處罰嘛,到一億以上要不要加更重?部長,在不贊成?我覺得這是一個很好的方向,但是可能要請我們的主席不會來回應比較好。好,謝謝。再來,事宜四條,339條之事第一項第二款之罪,就是三人劫火去犯嘛。如果有其他各款的話,加重期刑最高最低同加之,這是你們基本上面的設計。我們等一下來看這個條文。"},{"start":15035.411,"end":15057.597,"text":"當我們看完43條跟44條以後我下面有個問題啊因為那個部長你先回去休息沒關係啦因為接下來可能是法律專業的事情不好意思讓你站在上面來請法務部的政次甲乙丙三個人共同透過網際網絡散佈假投資真詐騙的訊息這個可以說是我們現在詐騙實務上面的常態嘛"},{"start":15058.577,"end":15079.007,"text":"他其中導致一個人A限於錯誤交付新台幣1500萬超過1000萬了嘛依照你們目前打詐專法的設計你要用第幾條追溯處罰?報告委員就是44條第一項的第一款他是複合性的那43條有沒有用?43條的話應該是"},{"start":15087.831,"end":15116.252,"text":"現在我直接講問題啦你們規範了43條規範了44條我現在在請教你的是43條跟44條的競合報告委員這是法條競合對嘛 所以你要用哪一條會用43條你就回去用43條了嘛那不對啊你43條基本上加重你要給他加重處罰提高法定性的罪責是他"},{"start":15117.386,"end":15125.173,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":15131.994,"end":15144.988,"text":"對吧 是那43條跟44條加重期刑的法律理由不一樣嘛 是我現在出現的狀況是當你被害的金額超過一千萬他使用的犯罪手法又是339條知識四款的複合形態"},{"start":15148.851,"end":15164.661,"text":"被害的金額超過一千萬。犯罪的手法用了兩種以上。那這種競合的形態,那你怎麼會只單純回到44、43條。那44條要考慮的因素不是不見了嗎?部長,不,不好意思。次長,我有沒有說錯?呃。"},{"start":15172.51,"end":15186.333,"text":"立法過程我是不是請司長補充一下?沒有,我不需要知道立法過程我只需要知道你們現在所端出來的法案到檯面上了以後我們今天假設立法院三讀通過的這個條文43條跟44條的競合你們要怎麼處理?這是我的問題我知道"},{"start":15193.376,"end":15208.625,"text":"那個按照委員剛才的例子的話他一加重的話會到10年6個月啦所以呢所以我們就會回到43條對44條就不用評價了44才對啦回來就是44條不好意思啦你跳來跳去的到底是43還是44還是43加44法條進合那我們重重就是44條"},{"start":15221.701,"end":15242.535,"text":"就是14條?是,44條。你們再回去想一想。我知道你們在推這個專法的時候時間壓力很大嘛。因為我去刑事警察局去調查局的時候我得到的消息是都還在研擬當中嘛。我知道你們時間的壓力很大。我也沒有怪你們。但問題是什麼?"},{"start":15244.016,"end":15271.304,"text":"你再出現這種法條進合的狀態的時候一個是被害的金額一個是犯罪的手法兩個考慮完全不一樣嘛是當被害的金額增加犯罪的手法又用是複合性的形態的時候這個時候我們在整個刑法的理論上那就應該要更加重其刑嘛我這樣的說法次長在不贊成啊贊成贊成嘛好我們今天吼今天吼我有朝你一個修正動議我們台灣民眾黨黨"},{"start":15274.404,"end":15297.803,"text":"內政委員會的委員跟最後國民黨委員大家都有支持等下在審法案的時候針對43條跟44條競合的形態的時候再請法務部跟我們司法院的法官們能夠表示好的見解第二個這個是我之前在質詢的時候我一直在問的事情主席再一分鐘可以嗎"},{"start":15299.339,"end":15301.079,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":15321.277,"end":15350.256,"text":"多一個月都在法官的設成範圍當中這我之前在社交法治委員會的時候我已經質詢過非常多次好那你們現在為了處理這個問題所以你們在44條第二項的時候特別把它列出來前項加重情形最高最低度同加之嘛我知道你們的立法的意圖是希望說最低的也要最少加二分之一嘛不要像以前一樣只加一個月大家沒辦法接受嘛那我現在的問題是說"},{"start":15352.238,"end":15371.69,"text":"當刑法67條相同的文字已經出現過了但我們法官在解釋上還是認為加一個月就夠你們為什麼會認為相同的文字在專法當中再重新寫一次法官適用法律的結果會有所不同來請一下司法院"},{"start":15373.342,"end":15395.08,"text":"保安委員這個應該是不一樣的加重期刑二分之一跟加重期刑至二分之一是不一樣的如果是加重期刑二分之一就是一定要加到二分之一最高最低都是一樣嘛所以未來沒有這個非常重要因為未來我們在其他的特別法規當中包括兒少性剝削的條例"},{"start":15396.201,"end":15415.283,"text":"包括其他的法規有加重期刑到二分之一我們全部立法者喔全部把它改成加重期刑二分之一按照今天司法院的說法是不是就是最低的刑度也會一定會加二分之一我需要一個肯定的答案我需要一個肯定的答案因為喔因為"},{"start":15416.997,"end":15431.754,"text":"實際上面法院判決的結果是不是這個樣子大家都充滿了疑惑所以請司法院主席站起來了最後回答一個問題所以你今天的說法是只是因為文字上面呈現的不同如果"},{"start":15432.435,"end":15448.885,"text":"今天立法者包括了在《兒少權益保護法》包括了在《性剝削條例》等等我們寫的不是加重其刑至二分之一喔是加重其刑二分之一的話最低的刑度就一定會加二分之以上是不是這樣"},{"start":15453.222,"end":15463.325,"text":"審議法文時,我們再用具體判決來檢驗司法院的法官今天在上面講的是不是對的。謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢林思明委員林思明委員不在蘇清淺委員蘇清淺委員蘇清淺委員不在"},{"start":15479.841,"end":15495.46,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":15499.583,"end":15514.571,"text":"委員鍾佳斌委員、李博毅委員、羅志強委員所提私面執行列入記錄刊登公報。私面執行及未達戶部分,請相關單位一週內以私面達戶並複資本會。"},{"start":15518.794,"end":15544.826,"text":"報告委員會現在我們進行法案審查請先讀討論事項第一、第一案、第二案所有版本及條文修正動議請一併先讀先讀完畢後再進行協商請議會人員我們現在也在這先讀我們也用餐好大家辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":15548.123,"end":15563.467,"text":"審查行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均為《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》第一章"},{"start":15574.525,"end":15592.471,"text":"行政院提案、台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案張明均為總責第一條行政院提案為防制及打擊詐騙危害預防與遏止不當利用金融、電信及網路從事詐欺犯罪並保護被害人保障人民權益特制定本條例台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":15593.231,"end":15618.088,"text":"第二條行政院提案本條例用詞定義如下依詐欺犯罪指下六個目之罪依犯刑法第339條之四之罪二犯第43條或第44條之罪三犯與前二目有裁判上一罪關係之其他犯罪二金融機構指洗錢防治法第五條第一項規定之機構三提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員指依洗錢防治法第五條第四項規定指定之提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員"},{"start":15620.129,"end":15635.025,"text":"四、電信事業指定性管理法第3條第1項第一款規定制電信事業五、網路廣告平台業者指透過網際網路平台或版位提供刊登或推播廣告之服務並收取對價且為民眾接觸廣告最終端網路平台業者"},{"start":15635.886,"end":15655.742,"text":"第三方支付服務業者指非屬電子支付機構管理條例所稱電子支付機構提供代理收付網路實質交易款項服務制業者。七、電商業者指主要從事網際網路方式零售商品或經營網際網路平台提供他人零售商品制業者。八、網路連線遊戲業者指營運網路連線遊戲服務制業者及發行線上遊戲點數專門用以兌換網路連線遊戲服務或商品制發行人。台民民眾黨黨團提案局委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":15663.829,"end":15684.915,"text":"第三條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為內政部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府主管機關有目的事業主管機關依舊本條例規定事項及防制詐欺犯罪之需要主動規劃所需之預防及宣導措施對涉及相關機關之防制業務並應全力配合並辦理下列事項依中央主管機關防制詐欺犯罪"},{"start":15685.655,"end":15708.848,"text":"政策、法規與方案之研究規劃之訂定及解釋其他統籌及督導防制詐欺犯罪業務等相關事宜。二、金融主管機關防制詐欺犯罪相關金融管理措施之規劃推動執行及監督。三、電信主管機關防制詐欺犯罪相關電信管理措施之規劃推動執行及監督。四、數位經濟相關產業主管機關防制詐欺犯罪相關之網路廣告平台第三方支付服務電商。"},{"start":15709.788,"end":15727.566,"text":"網路連線遊戲管理措施之規劃推動執行及監督,無法務主管機關詐欺犯罪之偵查、執行災犯抑制及被害人保護等刑事司法相關事宜,六、其他防制詐欺犯罪工作與相關目的事業主管機關應職權辦理,前向各款事項涉及各機關構之執掌或業務時,各級政府機關構應配合辦理。"},{"start":15729.127,"end":15750.64,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。第四條行政院提案主管機關及各相關目的事業主管機關得以補助獎勵或輔導方式推動下列事項一、詐欺防制教育宣導二、詐欺防制技術輔導三、促進產業學術及研究機構合作詐欺防制四、鼓勵投入詐欺防制人才培育五、充裕詐欺防制人才資源"},{"start":15751.52,"end":15768.797,"text":"六、鼓勵或協助運用適當技術或新興科技研發強化詐欺防治措施,其其他促進詐欺防治及相關研究發展之事項,前向補助獎勵或輔導之對象資格條件審核基準,申請程序和定機關及其他相關事項之辦法,由主管機關及各相關目的事業主管機關定之。"},{"start":15770.731,"end":15786.688,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案局委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案第五條行政院提案主管機關各目的事業主管機關應急和產業或民間團體積極辦理詐欺犯罪之預防、宣導、偵查及保護等相關業務並與各國政府、戶口及非政府組織進行各項合作事宜"},{"start":15787.709,"end":15804.222,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。第六條行政院提案主管機關各目的事業主管機關與第二條第二款至第八款至機構事業及業者應第幾舉辦教育訓練加強其人員防制詐欺犯罪制意識。臺灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":15805.063,"end":15831.553,"text":"第二章行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案捷委陳亭妃等提案章明均為救援防詐機制第一節行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案捷委陳亭妃等提案捷民均為金融防詐措施第七條行政院提案金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員應採取合理措施防止存款帳戶電子支付帳戶信用卡與虛擬資產帳號遭濫用與詐欺犯罪並因向客戶宣導預防詐欺之資訊"},{"start":15832.353,"end":15859.591,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案及五人陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案第八條行政院提案金融機構對存款賬戶電子支付賬戶及信用卡提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人人對虛擬資產賬號應盡善良管理人之注意與對疑似涉及詐欺犯罪這一場存款賬戶電子支付賬戶信用卡或虛擬資產賬戶賬號應強化確認客戶身份並得採取對客戶身份持續審查暫停或存入暫停存入或提領匯出款項或虛擬"},{"start":15861.633,"end":15889.33,"text":"資產暫停全部或部分交易功能管控信用卡及暫停信用卡帳戶交易功能拒絕建立業務關係或提供服務等控管措施金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員執行前項後段規定作業時的詐欺同業受詐欺者應提供相關資訊請人向疑似涉及詐欺犯罪之異常存款帳戶電子支付帳戶信用卡或虛擬資產帳號認定基準詐欺程序與項目作業程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法要增讓金融主管機關定值"},{"start":15893.511,"end":15917.837,"text":"九條行政院提案金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員依前條第一項後段規定辦理時應保存該客戶確認身份程序所得資料及交易資料交易紀錄並得向司法檢察機關通報司法檢察機關接獲通報後應與合理期間通知金融機構或提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員就該異常帳戶信用卡或虛擬資產帳號辦理後續控管或解除控管"},{"start":15918.257,"end":15943.573,"text":"前項資料及交易紀錄應自業務關係中止時其至少保存5年,但法律另有較長保存其應規定者從其規定。第一項應保存資料、交易紀錄及資範為通報司法、檢查機關這方式程序以就異常帳戶、信用卡或虛擬資產帳號辦理後續控管、解除控管及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央金融主管機關、會商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案具同行政院提案。"},{"start":15944.213,"end":15971.699,"text":"第十條行政院提案金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員應配合司法警察機關建立聯防通報機制與接獲司法警察機關之通報時各受款行及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員應將通報之款項或虛擬資產進行圈存持續監控並得依第八條第一項規定辦理司法警察機關為前項通報後應以合理期間進行查證並通知金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員辦理後續警示作業或解除控管"},{"start":15972.299,"end":15987.639,"text":"前日向之通報機制圈存管項或虛擬資產作業程序後續警示作業解除控管及其他應遵行事項之辦法而中央金融主管機關、匯商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":15988.26,"end":16003.49,"text":"第十一條行政院提案金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員依第九條第一項後段司法檢查機關通知暫停全部交易功能之帳戶或帳號中有被害人匯轉入之款項或虛擬資產未經提領者得一元通知機關之通知發還帳戶或帳號內剩餘款項或虛擬資產"},{"start":16007.338,"end":16035.258,"text":"前項發還帳戶或帳號內剩餘款項或虛擬資產之條件、方式、程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由中央金融主管機關、匯商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。第十二條行政院提案金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員執行本條例規定之防詐措施免除企業物商業保守秘密之義務該機構或事業之負責人、董事、經理人及職員一同"},{"start":16035.698,"end":16050.666,"text":"金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員執行本條例規定之防詐措施或配合司法、檢察機關各目的事業主管機關所為之處理,自身損害於客戶或第三人者免負賠償責任。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案軍統行政院提案。第十三條"},{"start":16051.787,"end":16078.442,"text":"行政院提案,金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員有下列情形之意者,由這項金融主管機關處新台幣20萬元以上、200萬元以下罰還,並令其限期改正藉其為改正者按次處罰。一違反第八條第二項規定為提供召會者相關資訊。二違反第九條第一項規定為保存資料或交易記錄。三違反第九條第二項規定為依現保存資料或交易記錄。四違反第十條第一項規定為配合建立聯防通報機制或為將通報之款項或虛擬資產進行圈存持續監控。"},{"start":16081.824,"end":16098.278,"text":"金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員有錢箱各款所定情形之一,請結重大者由中央金融主管機關儲新台幣一百萬元以上、一千萬元以上罰還並令其限期改正,藉其為改正者按字處罰。台灣民眾黨黨團提案具委員陳亭妃等提案、軍統行政院提案。"},{"start":16099.039,"end":16126.265,"text":"第二節行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案即為陳亭妃等提案解明均為電信防詐措施。第十四條行政院提案電信事業應採取合理措施防止其電信服務遭濫用與詐欺犯罪並應向用戶宣導預防詐欺之資訊電信事業經電信主管機關或司法警察機關通知有疑似使用電信服務從事詐欺犯罪之類型或方法與技術可行下應採取預防阻止通報或其他合理對應措施避免用戶接觸詐欺資訊。"},{"start":16127.805,"end":16146.492,"text":"電信事業及其從業人員執行本條例規定之防詐措施免除企業務商應保守秘密之義務電信事業執行本條例規定之防詐措施或配合司法警察機關各目的事業主管機關所為之處理自身損害於用戶或第三人者免付賠償責任台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":16147.032,"end":16169.31,"text":"第15條行政院提案申請電信服務應出示本人身份證明文件委託代理人申請電信服務者除前項身份證明文件外應出示代理人身份證明文件及委託至授權證明電信事業與用戶簽訂電信服務契約前應和對前二項規定之文件與本人或代理人相符並登錄之台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案據同行政院提案第16條"},{"start":16170.991,"end":16192.819,"text":"行政院提案用戶轉讓電信服務與他人應向電信事業重新辦理前條規定之核對及登錄事宜但用戶將電信服務供個人家庭生活或企業客戶內部活動目的使用者不在此限用戶為依前項規定將電信事業重新辦理核對及登錄者電信事業依限制或停止提供其相關電信服務台灣民眾黨黨團提案具委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":16193.439,"end":16217.51,"text":"第十七條行政院提案電信事業經電信主管機關或司法檢察機關通知用戶或使用電信人疑似使用電信服務從事詐欺犯罪應限期重新辦理核對及登錄該用戶之資料用戶為依前項規定配合電信事業重新核對及登錄或經核對於本人不相負責電信事業應限制或停止提供該項電信服務台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":16218.05,"end":16243.542,"text":"第十八條行政院提案電信事業經電信主管機關或司法檢查機關通知用戶或使用電信人使用電信服務從事詐欺犯罪者應限制或停止提供該項電信服務依請項規定限制或停止之電信服務電信事業應就該用戶申請之其他電信服務限期重新核對及登錄用戶資料用戶未配合電信事業重新核對及登錄或經核對與本人不相符者電信事業應限制或停止提供該用戶其他電信服務"},{"start":16244.242,"end":16269.716,"text":"電信事業經電信主管機關或司法警察機關通知第一項限制或停止提供電信服務之原因消滅得恢復提供用戶使用。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。第十九條行政院提案電信事業受理申請電信服務應依電信主管機關指定之資料庫輔助核對用戶身份。電信事業提供電信服務經電信主管機關或司法警察機關通知有詐欺犯罪之餘應重新核對者一統。"},{"start":16270.436,"end":16299.232,"text":"前向資料庫由電信主管機關會上中央主管機關協調後指定之電信事業依第一項資料庫輔助核對用戶身份之查詢事項查詢作業程序第二十條第二項與第二十二條第一項之定期查詢頻率及其他相關事項之辦法由電信主管機關定之電信事業搜集、處理及利用第一項資料庫之資料因依個人資料保護法規定辦理不得逾越核對目的之必要範圍並確保其從業人員保密義務台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":16300.112,"end":16318.419,"text":"二十條電信事業提供境外高風險電信事業提供至全部或一部國際漫遊服務前與技術可行下依依前條第一項資料庫認證經查證使用電信人無入境資料者不得提供國際漫遊服務但經使用電信人向電信事業領貴提示身份證明為建功和對其登錄後得提供國際漫遊服務"},{"start":16320.18,"end":16335.355,"text":"電信事業提供前項電信服務後應藉階前條第一項資料庫定期查詢該使用電信人是否出境電信事業提供第一項電信服務後發現使用電信人有資料不實、異常使用行為或依前項查詢以出境時應限制或停止提供該項電信服務"},{"start":16336.716,"end":16358.798,"text":"第一項境外高風險電信事業及全部或一部國際漫遊服務之範圍由電信主管機關匯商中央主管機關公告之電信主管機關應定期檢討前項公告之境外高風險電信事業及全部或一部國際漫遊服務之範圍並適時調整台灣民眾黨黨團提案繼委員陳亭妃等提案軍統行政院提案第二十一條行政院提案"},{"start":16359.558,"end":16386.196,"text":"電信事業與境外電信事業簽訂《國際漫遊服務協議》時應遵守平等互惠原則及我國法令之相關規定。電信事業經電信主管機關或司法檢察機關通知特定境外電信事業所提供之特定電信服務有違反我國法令之餘者不得提供對應該特定電信服務之特定用戶號碼或國際行動用戶識別碼、特定號碼或碼段之國際漫遊服務。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案軍統行政院提案。"},{"start":16386.796,"end":16415.78,"text":"第二十二條行政院提案電信事業提供非本國籍用戶預付卡服務期間應接接第十九條第一項之資料規定其查詢該用戶是否出境電信事業經依前向規定查詢非本國籍用戶已出境應限制或停止提供其預付卡服務前向非本國籍用戶與預付卡服務有效期間再日自入境經向電信事業申請核對及登錄用戶身分後電信事業得繼續提供原電信服務台灣民眾黨黨團提案僱文陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":16416.36,"end":16442.342,"text":"第23條,依第17條第二項或第18條第一項規定,受電信事業限制或停止電信服務之用戶上同一電信事業再度申請電信服務時,該電信事業予受限制或停止通知之日期二年內限制其自多申請一門用戶號碼或一項電信服務,但用戶仍有該電信事業提供之其他用戶號碼或電信服務時,電信事業予受限制或停止通知之日期二年內不得受理其申請。"},{"start":16443.263,"end":16461.815,"text":"曾因使用或提供電信服務進行詐欺受司法警察機關通知限制或停止電信服務之法人、非法人團體商號其代表人在不同法人、非法人團體商號之名義向同一電信事業申請電信服務時該電信事業亦與受限制或停止通知之日其二年內限制其至多申請一門用戶號碼或一項電信服務"},{"start":16464.196,"end":16489.096,"text":"但法人、非法人、團體、商號人有該電信事業提供之其他用戶號碼或電信服務時電信事業於受限制或停止通知之日其二年內不得受理其申請電信事業經司法警察機關通知曾經其他電信事業限制或停止提供電信服務達一定次數之用戶電信事業應將其列為高風險用戶並限制高風險用戶於受通知之日其二年內之多申請一門用戶號碼或一項電信服務"},{"start":16491.078,"end":16507.167,"text":"但該用戶仍有該電信事業提供之其他用戶號碼或電信服務時電信事業於受通知之日其二年內不得受理其申請。請向一定次數由電信主管機關、匯商中央主管機關公告之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":16507.927,"end":16522.98,"text":"第24條行政院提案電信事業而下列情形之一者由電信主管期關處新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下罰還並令其限期改正及其未改正者按次處罰。依違反第19條第一項規定為依指定資料庫輔助核對用戶身份"},{"start":16523.52,"end":16539.69,"text":"二違反第19條第3項所定辦法中有關資料庫查詢作業程序之規定,三違反第20條第1項本文規定提供國際漫遊服務且為依第19條第1項之資料庫查證使用電信人有無入境資料或經查證使用電信人無入境資料而提供國際漫遊服務。"},{"start":16542.159,"end":16562.073,"text":"四、違反第20條第二項規定為定期查詢使用電信人是否出境或違反同條第三項規定為限制或停止提供使用電信人國際漫遊服務五、違反第22條第一項規定為定期查詢非本國籍用戶是否出境或違反同條第二項規定為限制或停止提供已出境之非本國籍用戶預付卡服務"},{"start":16563.013,"end":16585.57,"text":"電信事業有前項各款所定情形之一情節重大者由電信主管機關處新台幣100萬元以上、1000萬元以下罰還並另及限期改正、借其為改正者按次處罰。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。第27條行政院提案電信事業有下列情形之一者由電信主管機關處新台幣10萬元以上、100萬元以下罰還並另及限期改正、借其為改正者按次處罰。"},{"start":16586.371,"end":16604.758,"text":"一違反第15條第三項規定為核對同條第一項或第二項諸文件與本人或代理人相符或未登錄二違反第16條第二項規定為限制或停止提供用戶相關電信服務三違反第17條第一項規定為限期重新辦理核對或登錄用戶資料四違反第17條第二項規定為限制或停止提供用戶"},{"start":16606.499,"end":16629.156,"text":"該項電信服務五違反第18條第一項規定未限制或停止提供用戶該項電信服務六違反第18條第二項前段規定未限期重新核對或登錄用戶資料七違反第18條第二項後段規定未限制或停止提供用戶其他電信服務八違反第23條第一項本文第二項本文或第三項本文規定與受限制或停止通知之日期二年內"},{"start":16629.716,"end":16652.55,"text":"提供用戶該不同法人、非法人、團體、商號或高風險用戶超過一門用戶號碼或一項電信服務。九、違反第23條第一項單書、第二項單書或第三項單書規定於受限制或停止通知之日其二年內提供用戶該不同法人、非法人、團體、商號或高風險用戶其他用戶號碼或電信服務。電信事業九、有錢銷個款所定情形之一情形重大者。"},{"start":16653.09,"end":16681.549,"text":"由電信主管機關處新台幣50萬元以上500萬元以下罰還並立即限期改正,皆及未改正者按次處罰。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案。軍統行政院提案。第26條行政院提案。對電信主管機關一本條例所為之行政處分不符者直接適用行政訴訟程序。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案。軍統行政院提案。第三節行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案。結明均為數位經濟防詐措施。第27條"},{"start":16683.25,"end":16706.093,"text":"行政院提案網路廣告平台業者利用網際網路於中華民國領域內提供網路廣告服務且達一定規模者適用本條例之規定,前項一定規模之計算基準由數位經濟相關產業主管機關定之。數位經濟相關產業主管機關應依前項所定計算基準公告服務而一定規模之業者名單並定其前途及事實調整。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案軍統行政院提案。"},{"start":16707.074,"end":16729.359,"text":"第28條行政院提案網路廣告平台業者應以適當方式公開揭露下列資訊,亦業者代表人及第29條第1項法律代表之姓名或名稱,二是業所或營業所之地址、電話及電子郵件信箱等得快速直接通訊之聯繫方式,三其他依法規應公開揭露之資訊,台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":16729.939,"end":16744.749,"text":"二十九條行政院提案網路廣告平台業者及其代表人與中華民國無營業所或駐居所且未設立分公司者、網路廣告平台業者應以書面指定中華民國紀念我國國民依法登記之法人或設有代表人或管理人之非法人團體為其法律代表"},{"start":16747.03,"end":16768.609,"text":"並向數位經濟相關產業主管機關提報法律代表之姓名、名稱、住居所、事業所或營業所、電話及電子郵件信箱,前向網路廣告平台業者之業務活動、營業或投資行為,亦其他法律規定需經許可者,並亦予提報法律代表前取得許可。網路廣告平台業者應授以第一項法律代表必要之權限及資源執行下列事項。"},{"start":16771.273,"end":16788.501,"text":"為網路廣告平台業者指定之縱達代收文二告知及協助網路廣告平台業者執行詐欺防制措施之法令遵循。三、其他受網路廣告平台業者委託辦理本條例及其相關法令之遵循。網路廣告平台業者有下列情形之意者數位經濟相關產業主管機關得以適當方式公告其名稱。"},{"start":16789.361,"end":16806.553,"text":"一為依第一項規定指定及提報法律代表二法律代表待遇執行前項第二款告知及協助義務網路廣告平台業者為依第一項規定指定及提報法律代表者數位經濟相關產業主管機關應通知其餘限期內補正台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案軍統行政院提案"},{"start":16807.313,"end":16827.559,"text":"第三十條行政院提案網路廣告平臺看燈或推播之廣告不得含有涉及詐欺之行為網路廣告平臺業者應建立下列管理措施一、對其網路廣告服務應以數位簽章快速身份識別機制或其他安全性相當之技術或方式驗證委託看播者及出資者之身份二、對其網路廣告服務遭利用為"},{"start":16828.419,"end":16853.306,"text":"《詐欺犯罪之風險》進行分析及評估具以訂定合法、必要且有效之詐欺預防、偵測、辨識及應對之詐欺防制計劃並以適當方式每年發布詐欺防制透明度報告。前項第二款《詐欺防制計劃》應參照數位經濟相關產業主管機關、各目的事業主管機關或各同業工會所發布之疑似詐欺廣告太陽建立防制詐欺風險管理機制並對高風險業務關係者採取必要強化管理措施。"},{"start":16857.816,"end":16881.112,"text":"第二項第一款《適用之技術或方式》第二款《詐欺防制計劃與透明度報告之格式及內容》由數位經濟相關產業主管機關公告之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案具文陳亭妃等提案具統行政院提案。第三十一條行政院提案。網路廣告平台業者與其平台刊登或推播廣告時應用廣告中揭露下列資訊,依標示為廣告之訊息而委託刊播者、出資者相關資訊。"},{"start":16882.313,"end":16910.201,"text":"三、廣告依法續金許可者其許可次號四、廣告使用深度偽造技術或人工智慧生成之個人影像網路廣告平台業者依前條第二項第一款規定驗證委託看播者及出資者之身份且委託看播者及出資者非屬前條第三項之高風險業務關係者前項廣告應揭露資訊得與簡化第一項第二款所稱委託看播者只為推銷商品或提供服務自行或委託他人設計製作發布廣告之法人、非法人、團體或個人"},{"start":16911.621,"end":16939.638,"text":"第一項第四款所稱深度偽造只以電腦合成或其他科技方法製作本人不實之言行並阻使他人誤信為真之技術表現形式。第一項及第二項資訊揭露基準、簡化方式作業程序及其他相關事項之辦法由數位經濟相關產業主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。第32條行政院提案網路廣告平台業者知悉其刊登或推播之廣告為詐欺廣告或明顯涉及詐欺時應依下列規定辦理。"},{"start":16940.979,"end":16967.859,"text":"一、主動或依司法警察機關、數位經濟相關產業主管機關或各目的事業主管機關之通知期限內以除限制瀏覽、停止播送該廣告或採取其他必要之處置並將該廣告之委託刊播者、出資者等資訊及廣告內涵疑似涉及詐欺之網路通訊軟體帳號、電信號碼等相關資訊提供司法警察機關。二、對刊播詐欺廣告或明顯涉及詐欺廣告之用戶或經司法警察機關通知該用戶為明顯涉及詐欺帳號並令其暫停"},{"start":16969.64,"end":16996.991,"text":"提供服務時與合理期間暫停提供服務。網路廣告平台業者違反前項規定對於因物性廣告內容而受有損害之人應與廣告委託、刊播者、出資者負連帶損害賠償責任。網路廣告平台業者依第一項第二款規定暫停提供服務,應秉持客觀禁止及實質原則審酌決定。第一項第一款之通知期限由數位經濟相關產業主管機關公告之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":16997.691,"end":17017.16,"text":"第三十三條行政院提案網路廣告平台業者經目第四頁主管機關或司法警察機關通知其經營之平台所刊登或播送之內容有涉及詐欺犯罪嫌疑情勢者應先行限制接取、瀏覽或移除與詐欺犯罪有關之內容。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":17018,"end":17040.642,"text":"三十四條第三方致富服務業者對客戶應盡善良管理人之注意義務對疑似涉及詐欺犯罪之客戶應強化確認客戶身份並得採取對客戶身份持續審查延後撥款拒絕建立業務關係或提供服務等控管措施第三方致富服務業者執行前向後段規定作業時得使用聯防系統通知同業業者"},{"start":17042.103,"end":17056.608,"text":"前二項疑似涉及詐欺犯罪之客戶認定基準通知程序項目作業程序及其他相關事項之辦法由數位經濟相關產業主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。第35條行政院提案"},{"start":17057.088,"end":17083.277,"text":"第三方支付服務業者與依前條第一項後段規定辦理時應保存該客戶確認身份程序所得資料及交易記錄並得向司法警察機關通報司法警察機關接獲通報後與應與合理期間通知第三方支付服務業者就前條第一項後段延後撥款辦理後續控管或解除控管前項資料及交易記錄應自業務關係中止時起至少保存5年但法律另有較長保存期間規定者從其規定"},{"start":17084.838,"end":17101.943,"text":"第一項應保存資料交易記錄之範圍通報司法警察機關之方式程序就延後撥款辦理後續控管解除控管及其他相關事項之辦法由數位經濟相關產業主管機關匯商中央主管機關及法務主管機關定之台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案"},{"start":17102.583,"end":17122.664,"text":"第36條行政院提案,電商業者及網路連線遊戲業者對於其服務應盡善良管理人之注意義務,防止服務遭濫用於詐欺犯罪,並得採取向用戶宣導預防詐欺之資訊等合理措施。電商業者及網路連線遊戲業者執行前向合理措施時,得使用聯防系統通知同業業者採取預防。"},{"start":17124.446,"end":17141.694,"text":"主旨或其他合理對應措施避免用戶接觸詐欺資訊電商業者及網路連線遊戲業者經司法警察機關或目的事業主管機關通知其服務有疑似詐欺涉及詐欺犯罪之情勢者應配合司法警察機關或目的事業主管機關辦理並對涉及詐欺犯罪情勢之用戶賬號與合理期間暫停提供服務"},{"start":17147.881,"end":17163.971,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案局委員陳亭妃等提案均同行政院提案。第37條行政院提案網路廣告平台業者、電商業者及網路零線遊戲業者因採可行之技術與合理期間保存電子記錄文書、影像物品用戶註冊及確認身份程序所得資料"},{"start":17164.511,"end":17187.948,"text":"沿線記錄或交易記錄等足以重建使用者及個別交易者有關資料但法律另有較長保存期間規定者從其規定法院檢察署或司法警察機關應調查詐欺犯罪得向網路廣告平台業者、電商業者及網路連線遊戲業者調取前線有關資料該等業者應於收受調取通知之日起3日內提供資料並保存6個月以提供司法警察機關調查發生訴訟時應延長保存至裁判確定後3個月"},{"start":17192.831,"end":17207.102,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案均統行政院提案第38條行政院提案網路廣告平台業者、第三方支付服務業者、電商業者及網路連線遊戲業者執行本條例規定之防詐措施免除其業務上應保守秘密之義務"},{"start":17208.282,"end":17230.452,"text":"該機構或事業之負責人、董事、經理人及職員一同、網路廣告平台業者、第三方支付服務業者、電商業者及網路連線遊戲業者執行本條例規定之防詐措施或配合司法、檢察機關、數位、經濟、相關產業主管機關、各目的事業主管機關所為之處理致勝損害於用戶或第三人者免負賠償責任。台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案軍統行政院提案。"},{"start":17231.252,"end":17249.201,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第39條,汽車貨運業及汽車路線貨運業達一定規模者適用本條例之規定,前項一定規模之計算基準由中央公路主管機關定之。中央公路主管機關依依前項所定計算基準公告符合一定規模之業者名單並定其檢討及事實調整。"},{"start":17250.342,"end":17271.309,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第40條,汽車貨運業及汽車路線貨運業者承運貨物應負善良管理人責任進行確認托運員身份程序並留存其確認托運員身份程序所得資料。前項確認托運員身份程序所得資料應自業務關係終止時起至少保存二年,但法律另有較長保存期限規定者從其規定。"},{"start":17272.429,"end":17299.954,"text":"第一項確認托運員身份留存確認資料之範圍程序方式有中央公路主管機關定之違反第三項所定辦法者有中央公路主管機關處汽車貨運業及汽車路線貨運業者新台幣5萬元以上30萬元以下罰還並通知限期改正竊其為人為改正者得按次處罰托運員拒絕提供第一項身份資訊者汽車貨運業及汽車路線貨運業者得拒絕承運其貨物有違反第一項及第二項規定者"},{"start":17300.934,"end":17318.987,"text":"有中央公路主管機關處新台幣一萬元以上、一百萬元以上罰款並立即限期改正,竊其未有改正者按次處罰。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第41條,汽車貨運業及汽車路線貨運業者辦理代售貨款業務,售貨人予予詐騙包裹,售貨人予得予收受運送,"},{"start":17320.027,"end":17343.923,"text":"運送物後7日內以退回運送物或書面通知方式解除契約無需說明理由及負擔任何費用或對價但有特殊例外情勢者不在此限第一項單數特殊例外情勢及退款程序由中央公路主管機關定之汽車貨運業及汽車路線貨運業者辦理代收貨款業務為確保售貨人之退款權益得將代收貸付款項之多暫時保留7日"},{"start":17345.504,"end":17369.352,"text":"有違反第一項規定為提供退款服務者由中央公路主管機關處新台幣1萬元以上、100萬元以下罰還並立即限期改正,藉其未改正者按次處罰。第39條行政院提案網路廣告平台業者有下列情形質疑者由數位經濟相關產業主管機關處新台幣50萬元以上、500萬元以下罰還並立即限期改正,藉其未改正者按次處罰。依違反第29條第一項規定"},{"start":17370.852,"end":17391.093,"text":"規定為指定及提報法律代表經一統條第五項規定通知現即補正而皆其為補正。二違反第29條第三項第二款規定法律代表待遇執行告知或協助義務。三違反第32條第一項第一款規定為依司法警察機關、數位經濟相關產業主管機關或各目的事業主管機關致通知其縣內移除。"},{"start":17391.653,"end":17413.796,"text":"限制瀏覽、停止播送該廣告或採取其他必要之處置。四、違反第32條第一項第二款規定為依司法警察機關之通知與合理期間暫停提供服務。有前項第一款所定情形期間重大者由數位經濟相關產業主管機關處新台幣250萬元以上、2500萬元以下罰還並立即限期改正,藉其為改正者按次處罰。"},{"start":17414.657,"end":17427.896,"text":"數位經濟相關產業主管機關並得召集專家審議會議令網際網路接取服務提供者為停止解析或限制接取之處置。有第一項、第二款至第四款所定情形之一,情節重大者由數位經濟相關產業主管機關處新台幣250萬元以上"},{"start":17432.162,"end":17457.956,"text":"二千五百萬元以下罰還並立即限期改正藉其為改正者按次處罰。數位經濟相關產業主管機關並得召集專家審議會議令網際網路接取服務提供者或快速存取服務提供者為適當之流量管理措施。人為改正者得為停止解析或限制接取等必要之處置。請二項所定情節重大之認定基準採行適當流量管理措施停止解析與限制接取之裁量基準。"},{"start":17458.576,"end":17478.202,"text":"專家審議會議之組成任務及其他應遵行事項之辦法,由數位經濟相關產業主管機關、會商中央主管機關定之,網際網路接取服務提供者或快速存取服務提供者,依第二項及第三項規定所為之六項管理措施,停止解析或限制接取之處置之身損害於用戶或第三人者免負賠償責任。"},{"start":17479.662,"end":17506.736,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第42條同行政院提案委員陳亭妃等提案將罰還金額修正為新台幣100萬元以上、1000萬元以下其餘同行政院提案。第40條行政院提案有下列情形質疑者由數位經濟相關產業主管機關處新台幣20萬元以上、200萬元以下罰還並立即限期改正,藉其為改正者按此處罰。依違反第28條規定未公開揭露或揭露資訊不全"},{"start":17507.156,"end":17531.397,"text":"二、違反第30條第二項第一款規定未驗證委託刊播者或出資者之身份。三、違反第30條第二項第二款規定未訂定詐欺防制計劃或未發布詐欺防制透明度報告。四、刊登或推播廣告時唯一第31條第一項規定揭露資訊。五、違反第32條第一項第一款規定未將委託刊播者、出資者等資訊或未將廣告內容。"},{"start":17532.177,"end":17547.87,"text":"內涵疑似涉及詐欺之網路通訊軟體、帳號、電信號碼等相關資訊提供司法檢察機關。六、違反《數位經濟相關產業主管機關》一前條第二項或第二三項規定所為之命令為採取適當之流量管理措施、停止解析或限制接取之處置。"},{"start":17548.61,"end":17574.127,"text":"有錢箱各款所定情形之一情節重大者由數位經濟相關產業主管機關處新台幣100萬元以上1000萬元以下罰還並令其限期改正且其未改正者按次處罰。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第43條同行政院提案委員陳亭妃等提案將罰還金額修正為新台幣50萬元以上500萬元以下其餘同行政院提案。第41條行政院提案有下列情形之一者由數位經濟相關產業主管機關"},{"start":17576.668,"end":17602.265,"text":"處新台幣10萬元以上、100萬元以下罰還並令其限期改正,借其為改正者按次處罰。一、違反第35條第一項規定為保存資料或交易記錄。二、違反第35條第二項規定為一線保存資料或交易記錄。三、違反第36條第三項規定為對涉及詐欺犯罪情識之用戶帳號與合理期間暫停提供服務。四、違反第37條第二項規定為配合調取通知提供資料。"},{"start":17603.939,"end":17628.019,"text":"有前項各款所定情形之一情節重大者由數位經濟相關產業主管機關主新台幣50萬元以上500萬元以下罰還並立即限期改正藉其未改正者按此處罰。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第44條同行政院提案委員陳亭妃等提案第一項罰還修正為新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下第二項罰還修正為新台幣100萬元以上1000萬元以下其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":17628.94,"end":17651.296,"text":"第四十二條行政院提案為處理詐欺犯罪防制緊急案件及時防制民眾接觸詐欺網站各目的事業主管機關及司法警察機關任由及時處置之必要時得令網際網路接取服務提供者為停止解析或限制接取之處置委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第四十五條軍統行政院提案"},{"start":17652.959,"end":17669.829,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第四節解明金融制裁措施臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第46條行政院應設制裁辦公室並配置專責人力制裁辦公室依職權就任何人團體或組織有以下情勢者進行審議並予以金融制裁依涉嫌犯詐欺"},{"start":17671.758,"end":17689.993,"text":"犯罪經檢警傳喚未到者、二、涉嫌犯詐欺犯罪經法庭傳喚未到者、三、其他涉嫌犯詐欺犯罪中央法務機關提供充分證據制裁辦公室任有必要者,請向詐欺辦公室之組織架構人力分配及制裁辦公室之審議程序由行政院會上相關主管機關後定之。"},{"start":17690.874,"end":17716.189,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第47條制裁辦公室因每月召開定期會議由行政院及各相關主管機關就涉及詐欺犯罪之案件進行報告並建議制裁手段制裁辦公室得採取採納報告所建議之制裁手段之全部或一部並於決議後列入制裁名單並公告之前項所定制裁名單之公告時生效列入第二項制裁名單者不以該個人、法人、組織或團體在中華民國領域者為限"},{"start":17717.35,"end":17737.479,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第48條:「經制裁辦公室決議應列入制裁名單者應受以下制裁。一、受制裁人如具外國國籍應拒絕受制裁者入我國國境,已入境者立即驅逐出境。二、對受制裁者之金融帳戶、虛擬資產帳戶、第三方支付帳戶、通貨或其他支付工具為提款、匯款、轉帳、付款、交付或轉讓。"},{"start":17738.559,"end":17766.396,"text":"三、對受制裁者直接或間接所有達50%以上之財物或財產上利益為遺傳、變更、處分、利用或其他足以變動其數量、品質、價值及所在地。四、任何人不得為受制裁者收集或提供財物或財產上利益。前項規定於第三人受列於制裁名單上之個人、法人或團體組織委任、委託、信託或其他原因而無為其持有或管理之財物或財產上利益一時用之。"},{"start":17767.336,"end":17783.333,"text":"金融機構提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員及第三方支付服務業者因業務關係之息下列情勢因應之息後24小時內通報司法檢察機關,因其本身持有或管理經指定制裁之個人、法人或團體之財務或財產上利益所在地,"},{"start":17789.68,"end":17809.895,"text":"因前項規定辦理通報者免除其業務上應保守秘密之義務且不受個人資料保護法之限制。第三項通報方式程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法由該機構事業或人員之中央主管機關、會商主管機關及中央銀行定之。其事務涉及司法院者由司法院、會商、行政院定之。"},{"start":17810.635,"end":17824.865,"text":"金融機構提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員以及第三方支付服務業者違反第一項至第三項規定者由中央主管機關處新台幣200萬元以上、1000萬元以下罰還並限期責令改正皆其為改正者得按次處罰。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第49條"},{"start":17827.307,"end":17854.147,"text":"制裁辦公室經決議得對列入制裁名單者與公告其列入制裁名單時,一併宣布以下許可措施。一、著流經指定制裁之個人或其受撫養親屬家庭生活所必須之財物或財產上利益。二、著流經指定制裁之個人、法人或團體管理財物或財產上利益之必要費用。三、對經指定制裁之個人、法人或團體以外之第三人許可支付受制裁者與受制裁前對善意第三人負擔之債務。"},{"start":17854.987,"end":17870.382,"text":"前向許可措施制裁辦公室應就著流制裁物或財產商利益及必要費用之使用方式範圍額度等項目予以明確規定與公告制裁名單時一併公告。前二項之許可措施制裁辦公室與審議時得請各相關主管機關提供意見。"},{"start":17871.363,"end":17894.398,"text":"受制裁者予受制裁期間並經制裁辦公室決議予以許可措施時予有許可措施實用之情形得向制裁辦公室申請將特定項目納入許可措施範圍制裁辦公室予收受申請之日起15日內應以書面續名理由回覆申請人申請人予收受辦公室回覆後如有不符應於收受之日起7日內向制裁辦公室申付"},{"start":17895.938,"end":17912.143,"text":"審訴。制裁辦公室應於收受審訴之日起7日內再次召開審議會並將制裁辦公室決議結果以書面訊明理由回覆申請人。第四項之申請如今制裁辦公室決議維持原處分或駁回其申訴者不得就同意申請再行申訴違反第二項之規定"},{"start":17913.303,"end":17941.9,"text":"或於製裁期間疑似有詐欺犯罪行為者,製裁辦公室應以致心疑似詐欺犯罪行為24小時內召開審議會,就是否廢止第一項許可措施進行審議,並於審議會結束後24小時內公告決議之結果。第一項許可措施,第二項財務或財產商利益及必要費用之使用方式範圍額度及相關事項之辦法,及第四項、第五項所定之申請程序與審議程序相關事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五十條。"},{"start":17943.618,"end":17958.142,"text":"制裁辦公室任有必要時或經各相關主管機關之建議的召集審議會就制裁名單之更新進行審議並於審議會結束後3日內公告更新之制裁名單該名單之公告時生效欲有受制裁之日自然人、死亡、司法人或團體組織解散或消滅時"},{"start":17960.103,"end":17983.515,"text":"制裁辦公室因與窒息情形後24小時內召開審議會並經審議會決議後公告更新之制裁名單該名單自公告時生效受制裁者如不符審議會所公告之決議結果得於制裁名單更新公告之日起15日內向行政院提起申訴行政院收受申訴之日起7日內應制裁辦公室就申訴內容再次進行審議與審議會結束後公告決議結果該結果應於審議會結束後15日內以書面答覆申訴人"},{"start":17989.298,"end":18002.769,"text":"自裁辦公室任有必要時得給予申訴人充分陳述意見及答辯之機會。申訴人如對前項申訴審議結果不符則,應與受受審議結果之日起,"},{"start":18004.208,"end":18031.732,"text":"15日內向行政院提起訴願。受制裁者進行申訴應備之文件申訴審議會召開程序等相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關定之。第三章行政院提案台灣民眾黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案章明均為溯源打詐執法。第43條行政院提案犯刑法第339條知識之罪詐欺獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣1000萬元者處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑並得"},{"start":18032.892,"end":18049.223,"text":"得併科新台幣3000萬元以下罰金委員陳亭妃等提案前段修正為行為人犯刑法第339條之四之罪詐欺獲取制裁無財產商利益累積達新台幣1000萬元者其餘同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第51條同行政院提案"},{"start":18050.023,"end":18068.765,"text":"第44條行政院提案犯刑法第339條之四第一項第二款之罪有下列起刑之一者依該條項規定加重起刑二分之一一並犯同條項第一款第三款或第四款之一二在中華民國領域外以供詐欺犯罪所用之設備對於中華民國領域內之人犯之"},{"start":18069.486,"end":18090.638,"text":"前下加重其刑其最高度及最低度同加之犯第一項之罪及與之有裁判上疑罪關係之違反《洗錢防制法》第14條、第15條之洗錢罪非屬刑事訴訟法第284條之一第一項第一審應行合一審判案件並準又同條第二項規定委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第52條軍統行政院提案"},{"start":18093.32,"end":18118.806,"text":"第45條行政院提案法人之代表人、法人或自然人之代理人、受僱人或其他從業人員應執行業務犯詐欺犯罪者處處罰行為人外並對該法人或自然人科以各該條之法規但法人或自然人為被害人或犯罪對犯罪之發生以監督責任或為防止行為者不在此限委員陳亭妃等提案繼台灣民眾黨黨團提案第53條軍統行政院提案"},{"start":18121.767,"end":18149.133,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第54條犯詐欺犯罪經有罪判罪確定與金融機構提供虛擬資產服務之事業及人員及第三方支付服務業者開立資存款帳戶信用卡或虛擬資產帳號電子支付帳戶或其他金融帳戶應與採取限制提領匯出款項或虛擬資產暫停部分交易功能管控信用卡帳戶交易功能或禁止進行非面對面交易等管控措施管控零限自由罪判決確定日期算10年"},{"start":18149.833,"end":18174.127,"text":"前向鎖定管控措施之項目、管控之標準、作業程序及其他應遵行實相之辦法的正向金融主管機關定制。第46條行政院提案:「犯詐欺犯罪與犯罪後自首如有犯罪所得、自動繳交其犯罪所得者,減輕或免除其薪。」並因而使司法警察機關或檢察官得以控押全部犯罪所得或查或發起、主持、操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者免除其薪。"},{"start":18174.767,"end":18195.218,"text":"委員陳亭妃等提案減輕或免除其刑及免除其刑分別修正為得減輕或免除其刑及得免除其刑其餘通行政院提案。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第55條通行政院提案。第47條行政院提案犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及立制審判中均自白如有犯罪所得自動繳交其犯罪所得者減輕其刑。"},{"start":18196.218,"end":18216.961,"text":"並以而使司法警察機關或檢察官對已扣押全部犯罪所得或查獲發起主持操縱或指揮詐欺犯罪組織之人者檢清或免處其刑。委員陳亭妃等提案檢清其刑及檢清或免處其刑分別修正文得檢清其刑及得檢清或免處其刑其餘通行政院提案。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第56條通行政院提案。"},{"start":18217.662,"end":18232.87,"text":"第48條行政院提案犯詐欺犯罪其公犯罪所用之物不問屬於犯罪行為人與否均沒收之犯詐欺犯罪有事時足以證明行為人所得支配之前項規定以外之財物或產產商利益系取自其他違法行為所得之沒收之"},{"start":18233.55,"end":18261.499,"text":"委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第57條均同行政院提案。第49條行政院提案犯詐欺犯罪受徒刑之執行而有峻毀時拒者,有其徒刑逾三分之二、累犯逾四分之三,由監獄報請法務部得須假釋出獄,但有下列情形之一者不得假釋,亦有其徒刑執行未滿六個月。二、犯詐欺犯罪之累犯於假釋期間受徒刑之執行完畢或一步之執行而赦免後五年以內再犯詐欺犯罪。"},{"start":18262.239,"end":18276.048,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等提案第49條,犯詐欺犯罪受徒刑之執行而有峻毀實據者有其徒刑逾三分之二由監獄報警法務部得須假釋出獄但有其徒刑執行未滿6個月者不得假釋。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第58條同行政院提案。"},{"start":18279.182,"end":18299.841,"text":"五十條行政院提案警察官提起公訴任有必要時得與起訴書記載對被告刻行犯違之意見必須明理由委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五十九條均同行政院提案第四章行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案及委員陳亭妃等提案章敏均為詐欺犯罪被害人保護"},{"start":18303.373,"end":18323.494,"text":"51條行政院提案中央主管機關應設置24小時檢舉通報窗口、線上檢舉平台或報案專線提供詐騙問題諮詢及通報或轉接相關機關購貨團體提供心理諮商等必要之協助委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第60條均同行政院提案第52條行政院提案司法人員、司法警察官"},{"start":18324.235,"end":18340.867,"text":"司法警察官於執行職務時發現詐欺犯罪被害人符合法律輔助所定申請要件時應告知其得依法提出申請並給予必要之協助。委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第61條均同行政院提案。第53條行政院提案"},{"start":18341.487,"end":18366.512,"text":"檢察官或法院於偵查或審判中得運用調解和解程序促使被告支付一定數額之賠償與詐欺犯罪被害人。對於未賠償被害人者檢察官得促請法院審酌量刑,必要時應提起上訴。檢察官與詐欺犯罪案件為緩起訴處分時,以優先命被告向被害人支付相當數額之財產或非財產上之損害賠償。委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第62條軍統行政院提案。"},{"start":18369.273,"end":18374.561,"text":"五十四條行政院提案:「詐欺犯罪被害人依民事訴訟程序向依法應付賠償責任"},{"start":18377.379,"end":18401.552,"text":"責任人起訴請求損害、賠償或提起上訴時暫免繳納訴訟費用與申請強制執行時並暫免繳納執行費。前項訴訟詐欺犯罪變害人為保權強制執行而申請假扣押或假處分者。法院依民事訴訟法所命公知擔保不得高於請求標的金額或價額至十分之一。法院依申請獲益職權宣告假執行所命公知擔保準用前條規定。"},{"start":18402.512,"end":18429.87,"text":"委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第63條軍統行政院提案。第55條行政院提案:「詐欺犯罪被害人提起民事訴訟所主張之主要攻擊或防禦方法相同者,得由其中選定一人或數人為選定人或及被選定人全體起訴或被訴,前向選定當事人之事項準用民事訴訟法關於選定當事人之規定。」委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第64條軍統行政院提案。"},{"start":18432.632,"end":18459.374,"text":"第五章行政院提案委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案章敏均為負責。第五十六條行政院提案防制詐欺犯罪有功人員應與獎勵監獄人與詐欺犯罪未發絕前監獄且經法院判決有罪者一同前項獎勵和給之對象類別條件及程序等有關事項之辦法由中央主管機關擬定報請行政院和定之。委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第六十五條軍統行政院提案。"},{"start":18460.214,"end":18476.554,"text":"五十七條行政院提案網路廣告平台業者為議第29條第一項規定指定及提報法律代表者一本條例對該業者所為文書之送達以公告代之自公告之次日起發生效力並看登政府公報及與機關網站公開"},{"start":18478.576,"end":18494.509,"text":"委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第66條軍統行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第67條本條例第46條所定之制裁辦公室因應本條例施行後每6個月就制裁辦公室之運作成效向立法院提交報告"},{"start":18495.29,"end":18523.447,"text":"立法院應於本條例施行之日起每二年就是否維持制裁辦公室之設立進行審議。前項所定之審議其程序如下。一、制裁辦公室應向立法院提出二年度工作報告。立法院應於收受工作報告後一個月內將工作報告交付委員會審議。委員會於審議完成後七日內擬具審查報告送交立法院院會。三、立法院院會應於收受委員會審查報告後七日內召開院會針對是否維持制裁辦公室之設立予以表決。"},{"start":18524.427,"end":18539.875,"text":"經全體立法委員二分之一以上同意時制裁辦公室的延長設立二年制裁辦公室若經立法院決議停止設立則應於立法院決議後三個月內解散其所公布之制裁名單自解散之日起施其效力。第五十八條行政院提案"},{"start":18540.495,"end":18560.621,"text":"本條例除第19條、第20條、第22條、第24條、第39條、第2項至第5項有關流量管理措施停止解析與限制接取處置部分及第40條第1項第6款至施行日期由行政院定之外自公布而施行。委員陳亭妃等提案及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第68條均同行政院提案。"},{"start":18562.952,"end":18591.233,"text":"修正動議一第15條第一項修正為申請電信服務應出示申請人本人身份證明文件第三項後段增加電信事業評估申請人或代理人之一有從事詐欺犯罪之餘得晚拒其申請其餘同行政院提案第二十條第一項後段增加並經電信主管機關同意其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":18594.496,"end":18607.167,"text":"三十條,第二項第一款增加一驗證之標準,第四項前段增加驗證之標準,"},{"start":18608.652,"end":18626.732,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第31條第一項第4款後段增加或聲音第二項後段增加但不包含第4款使用深度偽造技術或人工智慧生成之個人影像或聲音之揭露其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":18628.173,"end":18652.577,"text":"三十二條第三項後段增加並得設立受信任舉報者機制賦予處理其舉報內容之優先權其與同行政院提案第三十三條將先行文字修正為於通知期限內其與同行政院提案"},{"start":18653.72,"end":18673.028,"text":"第三十七條第二項後段增加網路平台業者依第三十二條第一項第一款主動依出限制瀏覽停止播送者亦同其與同行政院提案提案人委員蘇巧慧等三人修正動議二第十三條"},{"start":18674.795,"end":18699.246,"text":"第一項罰還修正為新台幣50萬元以上、500萬元以下第二項罰還修正為新台幣250萬元以上、2500萬元以下其餘同行行政院提案第二十三條第一項、第二項第一項、第二項之兩年內的文字修正為三年內"},{"start":18702.25,"end":18710.498,"text":"其餘同行政院提案。第24條第一項罰還修正為50萬元以上、500萬元以下。第二項罰還修正為250萬元以上、2500萬元以下。其餘同行政院提案。第25條第一項罰還修正為20萬元以上、200萬元以下。"},{"start":18727.489,"end":18744.392,"text":"第一項第八款、第九款的二年內修正為二年或三年內其餘同行政院提案。第39條第一項罰款修正為一百萬元以上、一千萬元以下。"},{"start":18745.649,"end":18757.254,"text":"第二項罰還修正為一千萬元以上、一億元以下第三項罰還修正為五百萬元以上、五千萬元以下其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":18759.175,"end":18772.523,"text":"第40條第一項罰還修正為50萬元以上500萬元以下第二項罰還修正為250萬元以上2500萬元以下其餘同行政院提案第41條第一項罰還修正為20萬元以上200萬元以下第二項罰還修正為100萬元以上1000萬元以下其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":18786.511,"end":18813.013,"text":"第43條犯刑法第339條之四之罪詐欺獲取之財物或財產上利益達新台幣500萬元者除5年以上12年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣5000萬元以下罰金。第50條前段增加詐欺犯罪之文字其餘同行政院提案提案人委員王美惠等3人。"},{"start":18814.409,"end":18828.083,"text":"修正動議三、第十一條第二項增加若僅有一名被害人則全額發還若有多名被害人則按比例發還被害人其餘同行政院提案。第十三條"},{"start":18831.26,"end":18859.627,"text":"增加第三項前項請結重大認定基準由金融主管機關匯商中央主管機關定之其餘同行政院提案第二十條增加第五項定期事業違反第一項至第三項規定對於因誤信通話內容而受由損害之人應付連帶損害賠償責任其餘同行政院提案第二十四條第一項第五款後段刪除"},{"start":18862.265,"end":18876.93,"text":"電信事業有下列情形之一者由電信主管機關處新台幣40萬元以上、400萬元以下罰還並立即限其改正、藉其為改正者按次處罰。依違反第20條第一項規定經查證使用電信人無入境資料而提供國際漫遊服務。"},{"start":18878.59,"end":18905.1,"text":"二違反第20條第3項規定未限制或停止提供使用電信人國際漫遊服務,三違反第22條第2項規定未限制或停止提供已出境之非本國籍用戶預付卡服務,第二項一列第3項並著作文字修正,增加第4項前項情節重大認定基準由電信主管機關會商中央主管機關定之,其與同行政院提案。第25條"},{"start":18907.608,"end":18931.901,"text":"第一項、第二項同行政院提案,增加第三項前項情節重大認定基準,由電信主管機關、匯商中央主管機關定之。第30條第二項、第二款之網路廣告服務修正為刊登或播送之內容。"},{"start":18933.766,"end":18949.071,"text":"第40條其餘同行政院提案第40條增加第三項前項情節重大認定基準由數位經濟相關產業主管機關會商中央主管機關定之其餘同行政院提案第52條"},{"start":18952.093,"end":18975.452,"text":"第一項同行政院提案,第二﹐增加第二項前向人員於執行職務時應會同社會福利主管機關建立個案通報機制。黨知悉有社會救助需要之個人或家庭應通報指轄市縣市社會福利主管機關,協助其獲得社會救助法所定社會救助。其餘﹐提案人委員黃婕等3人。"},{"start":18978.351,"end":19007.147,"text":"修正動議四,第一項同行政院提案,增加第二至六項,因犯罪獲取,犯刑法第339條之四各款之罪,因犯罪獲取之財物或財產傷弊已達新台幣一億元者,除五年以上、十二年以下由期徒刑,得併科新台幣三億元以下罰金。犯刑二項之罪有下列情形之一者,依該項規定加重其刑二分之一,"},{"start":19007.887,"end":19022.395,"text":"一並犯刑法第339條之四第一項其他各款之一二在中華民國領域外以供詐欺犯罪所用之設備對中華民國領域內之人犯之。前下加重其刑期最高度及最低度同加之。"},{"start":19023.476,"end":19042.733,"text":"犯第一項之罪兵犯組織犯罪防制條例第三條第一項後段之罪者處五年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣五千萬元以下罰金犯第二項之罪兵犯組織犯罪防制條例第三條第一項前段之罪者處十年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣五億元以下罰金"},{"start":19043.914,"end":19057.892,"text":"第44條第一項序文第二款修正為各款第一項第一款修正為並犯刑法第339條之四第一項其他各款之一增加第三項"},{"start":19059.013,"end":19085.61,"text":"及第四項犯刑法第339條之四第一項各款之罪並犯組織犯罪防制條例第三條第一項後段之罪者處五年以上十年二年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣三千萬元以下罰金犯刑法第339條之四第一項各款之罪並犯組織犯罪防制條例第三條第一項前段之罪者處七年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣一億元以下罰金"},{"start":19086.71,"end":19112.615,"text":"原第3項一列第5項並著作文字修正提案人委員麥玉珍等3人修正動議5增訂第4條行政院為執行防制打擊詐欺犯罪應涉中央詐欺犯罪防制匯報中央詐欺犯罪防制匯報致召集人一人由行政院院長或副院長兼任委員若干人由行政院院長就政務委員有關機關首長及具有詐欺犯罪"},{"start":19113.215,"end":19142.33,"text":"防制經驗之專家學者派監或聘監之。中央詐欺犯罪防制匯報每年至少開會一次。第一項詐欺犯罪防制匯報決議之事項各相關部會應落實執行。行政院應每季追蹤管考對外公告並納入每年向立法院提出之施政方針及施政報告。第一項之詐欺犯罪防制匯報之組成任務、議事程序及其他應遵行事項由行政院定之。提案人委員徐新穎等5人。"},{"start":19143.672,"end":19171.914,"text":"修正動議六第一條將詐騙修正為詐欺犯罪其餘同行政院提案第二條增加第四款提供數位簽章產品服務之事業或人員只提供應具有數位簽章而使產品增加價值的憑證機構事業或人員原第四款至第八款款次第一第三條"},{"start":19173.854,"end":19202.083,"text":"第二項宣導措施後增加及管理辦法其餘同行政院提案第四條第一項第一二款之詐欺修正為詐欺犯罪其餘同行政院提案第五條產業修正為產業界其餘同行政院提案第六條第八款文字修正為第九款其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":19203.737,"end":19226.836,"text":"審定第7條提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業於中華民國領域內提供服務者適用本條例之規定提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業及其代表人與中華民國無營業所或駐居所且未設立分公司者提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業"},{"start":19227.957,"end":19245.067,"text":"應以書面指定中華民國紀念我國國民依法登記之法人或設有代表人或管理人之非法人團體為其法律代表並向虛擬資產或數位簽章產品之主管機關提報法律代表之姓名、名稱、住居所、事務所或營業所"},{"start":19246.868,"end":19270.397,"text":"電話及電子郵件信箱前向提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業及業務之業務活動營業或投資行為依其他法律規定需經許可者並予以提報法律代表前取得許可提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業應授予第一項法律代表必要之權限及資源執行下列事項"},{"start":19271.533,"end":19294.826,"text":"一、為提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業指定之送達代理代收人二、高知及協助提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業執行詐欺防制措施之法令遵循三、其他受提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業委託辦理本條例及其相關法令之遵循"},{"start":19295.626,"end":19303.547,"text":"提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數月清章產品服務之事業有下列情形之一者相關產業主管機關得以適當方式公告其名稱。"},{"start":19305.678,"end":19331.009,"text":"一為依第一項規定指定及提報法律代表二法律代表待遇執行前項第二款告知及協助義務提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業為依第二項規定指定及提報法律代表者相關產業主管機關應通知其餘限期內補正提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業為依本條規定執行由相關主管機關比照第40條規定辦理"},{"start":19334.33,"end":19358.279,"text":"八條前段增加提供虛擬資產服務知識業或人員及提供數位簽章產品服務知識業或人員後段增加數位產品簽章買賣帳戶其餘同行政院提案第七條第九條第一項增加提供數位簽章產品服務知識業或人員對數位簽章產品第二項增加提供"},{"start":19360.745,"end":19383.954,"text":"第二項及第三項增加及提供數位簽章服務產品服務之事業或人員及數位簽章產品買賣帳戶其餘同行政院提案第八條。第十條第一項增加及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業或人員第一項及第三項增加數位簽章產品買賣帳戶其餘同行政院提案第九條。"},{"start":19385.054,"end":19406.786,"text":"第11條第一項及第二項增加提供數位簽章產品服務之事業或人員第一項及第三項增加數位簽章產品其餘同行政院提案第10條第12條第一項增加提供數位簽章產品服務之事業及或人員第一項及第二項增加數位簽章產品"},{"start":19408.519,"end":19425.847,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第10條,第13條,增加提供數位簽章產品服務之事業或人員,其餘同行政院提案第11條,第14條,增加提供數位簽章產品服務之事業或人員,其餘同行政院提案第12條,"},{"start":19428.325,"end":19443.632,"text":"第15條同行政院提案第14條,第16條同行政院提案第15條,第17條同行政院提案第16條,第18條同行政院提案第17條,第19條同行政院提案第18條,第20條同行政院提案第19條並著作文字修正,第21條同行政院提案第20條,第22條同行政院提案,"},{"start":19452.106,"end":19479.702,"text":"二十一條、第二十三條同行政院提案第二十二條、第二十四條同行政院提案第二十三條並著作文字修正、第二十五條第一項罰緩修正為新台幣五十萬元以上、三百萬元以下第二項罰緩修正為新台幣一百萬元以上、二千萬元以下後段增加並會商電信主管機關禁止其合併頻率其餘同行政院提案第二十四條第二十六條第一項罰緩修正為"},{"start":19482.065,"end":19501.519,"text":"新台幣20萬元以上、200萬元以下第二項法緩修正為新台幣100萬元以上、1000萬元以下後段增加並匯商電信主管機關禁止其核配頻率其餘同行政院提案第25條第27條同行政院提案第26條第28條同行政院提案第27條第29條同行政院提案第28條第30條同行政院提案第29條"},{"start":19508.124,"end":19512.737,"text":"第31條同行政院提案第30條,第32條同行政院提案第31條,第33條同行政院提案第32條。"},{"start":19518.052,"end":19544.523,"text":"第34條至第39條同行政院提案至第33條至第38條第40條第一項罰還修正為新台幣100萬元以上、1000萬元以下第二項罰還修正為新台幣500萬元以上、5000萬元以下第三項罰還修正為新台幣500萬元以上、5000萬元以下其餘同行政院提案第39條"},{"start":19546.724,"end":19564.693,"text":"第41條同行政院提案第40條並著作文字修正。第42條第一項罰還修正為新台幣20萬元以上、200萬元以下。第二項罰還修正為新台幣100萬元以上、1000萬元以下。其餘同行政院提案第41條。第42條至第"},{"start":19571.974,"end":19597.908,"text":"五十六條同行政院提案之第四十……第四十三條至五十六條同行政院提案之第四十二條至第五十五條。第五十七條同行政院提案第五十六條。第五十八條前段增加提供虛擬資產服務之事業及提供數位簽章產品服務之事業為依第七條第二項規定指定及提報法律代表者。"},{"start":19600.327,"end":19622.342,"text":"其餘同行政院提案第57條、第59條、同行政院提案第58條並著作文字修正。提案人委員徐允貞等3人。修正動議期第一條詐騙文字修正為詐欺。其餘同行政院提案第三條第三項前段增加"},{"start":19623.615,"end":19651.222,"text":"前上各款事項之中央目的事業主管機關認定有異議者由行政院指定目的事業主管機關其餘同行政院提案。第二十條第一項修正為非經使用電信人向電信事業領貴提示身份證明文件公核對及登錄電信事業不得提供境外高風險電信事業提供之全部或一部國際漫遊服務。第二項第三項後段增加"},{"start":19652.861,"end":19681.741,"text":"或預期停留或拘留其餘同行政院提案第22條第一項及第二項增加或預期停留或拘留其餘同行政院提案第24條第一項第四款第五款增加或預期停留或拘留其餘同行政院提案第44條第一項第二款增加在中華民國領域外其餘同行政院提案"},{"start":19682.661,"end":19707.521,"text":"49條第49條前增加病經技能訓練檢定成績合格其餘同行政院提案第51條同行政院提案第52條"},{"start":19710.882,"end":19737.629,"text":"第一項增加或犯罪被害人權益保障法所定申請或保護要件其餘同行政院提案第52條增加第二項前項人員於執行職務時應會同社會福利主管機關建立個案通報機制。黨知悉有社會救助需要之個人或家庭應通報指轄市縣市社會福利主管機關協助其獲得社會救助法所定社會救助。"},{"start":19741.428,"end":19763.614,"text":"提案人委員牛許廷等6人修正動議第8條第三項後段修正為管控之基準期間救濟程序其餘同行政院提案提案人委員王美惠等委員麥玉珍等4人"},{"start":19764.921,"end":19784.118,"text":"修正動議九、第一項後段修正為:「金融機構任有必要者應向中央金融主管機關通報。」新增第二項文字為:「中央金融主管機關接貨前項通報後應將疑似涉及詐欺犯罪之賬戶及賬戶持有人提報制裁辦公室審議。」"},{"start":19785.543,"end":19812.09,"text":"第四項文字為第一項至第三項之一、四涉及詐欺犯罪之異常存款、帳戶、電子支付、帳戶信用卡或虛擬資產、帳號認定基準、照會程序與項目作業程序、通報程序與項目及其他依遵行事項之辦法,由中央金融主管機關定之。其餘同行政院提案,提案人委員王美惠等、委員蔓韻珍等4人,"},{"start":19813.348,"end":19833.243,"text":"修正動議時第50條第6項文字修正為申訴人如對前項申訴審議結果不符者應於收受審議結果之日起30日內向行政院提起訴願提案人委員麥玉珍等4人"},{"start":19842.267,"end":19869.685,"text":"宗教團體與自然人民益登記不動產處理戰刑條例第五條條文委員張家俊等21人委員吳祁寧等19人提案繼委員陳亭妃等19人提案將施行之日起二年內修正為四年內其餘同現行法委員王美惠等17人提案第一項二年內修正為一定期間期限內其餘同現行條文"},{"start":19873.708,"end":19893.055,"text":"前項所稱一定期限授權內政部定之五言零代話等18人提案二年內修正為七年內其餘同現行條文修正動議第五條本條例施行之日起"},{"start":19897.647,"end":19910.051,"text":"宗教團體得救前條第一項不動產育本條例施行日期五年內向主管機關申請權利歸屬審任,欲其不予受理。提案人委員徐宇貞等4人。宣讀完畢。好,謝謝。報告各位委員。"},{"start":19926.188,"end":19955.056,"text":"現在我們先審查宗教團體自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修訂草案、計五案。好。我們現在有修正動議一案。現在請問各位委員。好。那我們有修正動議一案。請各位委員參列一下。"},{"start":19961.324,"end":19963.566,"text":"有無意見?請內政部說明。"},{"start":19975.373,"end":19978.975,"text":"中教師師長跟部長回答一下吧"},{"start":20004.832,"end":20013.117,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":20014.181,"end":20018.383,"text":"主席。來,王美慧。主席,現在保證說的就是我們本來兩年。再延長兩年。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對。對"},{"start":20041.716,"end":20051.985,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":20064.485,"end":20074.073,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":20082.892,"end":20082.932,"text":"財務局局長"},{"start":20101.187,"end":20120.183,"text":"六百多家已經完成了這個審任登記了或者不管是更名或是限制登記都已經做了那我們當然現在會有說時間來不及的部分我們當然也考慮到說給他適度延長尤其是我們是擔心的是說如果時間拉長然後他們又到最後才來申請一定又不夠"},{"start":20120.823,"end":20120.843,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、38、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":20140.132,"end":20157.468,"text":"貼明登記的問題,所以我們會催促,而且我們也跟地方政府不斷在聯繫,請他們逐一,他們其實有在逐一在跟這個中央團體聯繫,那這邊當然有700多家,他們聯繫不當然也就沒辦法了,是這樣的一個情況。不是,現在我要跟你請教的是說,現在登記之後,到目前為止,你們兩位可以登記,不然登記還要有多少天啊?"},{"start":20166.496,"end":20175.761,"text":"你覺得說700多間就沒有辦法聯繫的跟這700多間有可能...大概我們在估最多也不會超過300家啦"},{"start":20178.169,"end":20201.613,"text":"審部長為此定義有六百多間﹑還有差不多三百間還沒定義的。應該是我們大概估他會不會超過三百家啦。不會超過三百家。是是。我們兩黨來有辦法,這個你超過這三百間你有沒有辦法聯絡到。在台英的政府有沒有辦法聯絡啊。他們都逐一在聯繫、逐一在處理。是這樣一個情況。好,謝謝。"},{"start":20210.001,"end":20217.369,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":20229.436,"end":20244.492,"text":"懸條文規定是兩年嘛,那我們再延長兩年嘛,就四年嘛。大家有沒有意見?報告昭文,那個在條文裡面吼,恐怕就是那個剛剛那個幹事所說的吼,就是你把二改成四。是啦,好。"},{"start":20251.318,"end":20258.366,"text":"請問各位委員就照剛才協商結論通過大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們就照條文通過"},{"start":20266.837,"end":20291.608,"text":"好,那我們做一下決議吼,討論事項,宗教團體自然人名義登記不動產處理再行條例第五條條文修訂草案等五案,以併案審查完盡,擬具審查報告提包院會討論。請問在場委員需不需要經過黨團協商?不用。不用吼,好。"},{"start":20293.45,"end":20301.276,"text":"不須經黨團協商本案與縣委討論時有本席吳昭吉委員其名做補充說明。我們現在審查《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》等三案。"},{"start":20320.751,"end":20342.842,"text":"本席宣告為使討論計較本次會議進行主條討論時如有行政院版就以行政院版作為基準對照委員之修法提案來進行每條條文如有委員提案後修正動議"},{"start":20344.323,"end":20350.634,"text":"先分別請委員表示意見後再由行政單位一併的回覆說明。"},{"start":20355.607,"end":20383.674,"text":"我們現在進行主條討論先處理法案名稱及第一章的章名本案法案的名稱第一章的章名行政院及各黨團委員所提均與相同作以下決議法案名稱及第一章章名照行政院提案通過"},{"start":20384.977,"end":20390.46,"text":"一條條文有修正動議。我們修正動議有徐宇貞委員在第30頁"},{"start":20408.032,"end":20421.475,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":20433.601,"end":20439.766,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":20480.196,"end":20483.346,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":20491.545,"end":20515.82,"text":"好 針對第一條 修憤動議我們劉新平委員要不要做聲明好 謝謝這就單純用於統一啦因為法案名稱叫《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》嘛那這個就把它改成打擊詐欺危害嘛就用於一致可能比較合理一點就這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們行政單位要不要做補充好"},{"start":20519.755,"end":20525.918,"text":"好 那沒有意見我們第一條就照行政院版本通過啊不是 幹嘛不改?"},{"start":20525.918,"end":20529.539,"text":"啊?"},{"start":20529.539,"end":20545.525,"text":"他們沒有意見就改啊 改到下期啊 應該沒問題吧那行政大會有沒有意見?你們都不講牛新庭委員的提案還有習以珍委員的提案就文字修改 有沒有意見?你們到底"},{"start":20552.761,"end":20566.409,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":20578.993,"end":20579.093,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":20599.468,"end":20600.608,"text":"審訊委員審訊委員審訊委員審訊委員審訊委員審訊委員審訊委員"},{"start":20627.145,"end":20654.682,"text":"好,那我們繼續進行第二條條文好,第二條有我們徐以貞委員的修正動議在第31頁好,那徐以貞委員不在場我們就暫不處理好不好好,那第二條大家還有沒有意見好,沒有意見就照行政院版通過,好謝謝"},{"start":20658.442,"end":20686.197,"text":"三條好那在接下來我們就處理第三條第三條有徐以貞委員還有牛刑庭委員修正的修正動議來來我們現在放開31月以及我們牛刑庭的54月"},{"start":20690.287,"end":20692.538,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、"},{"start":20694.161,"end":20720.536,"text":"好 謝謝沒有這個是因為這個法案牽涉到的機關很多啦那常常這個跨部會聯繫的時候會有困難所以乾脆在法條裡面明定就是說如果這個業務範圍有重疊或是有疑義者就由行政院來直接裁就說這個判要判給誰把他寫清楚來有憑有據啦這樣才不會到最後推來推去然後讓這個法案沒有辦法處理以上好 謝謝我們牛欣廷委員來我們請行政單位來做說明好不好"},{"start":20727.258,"end":20752.557,"text":"主席和委員報告我們建議還是維持院版的因為當初在我們行政團隊在討論的時候我們會建議說這樣子的話整個範圍跟面向都已經足夠了那而且有特別有在總部法律裡面有11個那個執法的配套措施說未來是可以涵蓋到所需要的範圍以上說明好謝謝來我們牛先平委員現在單位的答案"},{"start":20754.008,"end":20766.908,"text":"不過我是覺得還是有必要講清楚因為其實法條上都是這樣你要實際上執行之後到最後還是會出現很多這個怪異漏案的狀況嘛所以我是覺得如果寫清楚沒有影響的話應該是寫清楚比較好啦"},{"start":20772.937,"end":20798.503,"text":"另外就是說以後萬一有新型態就這種東西你修可能用一段時間之後又有新型態的狀況出來的時候是不是變成說新型態狀況出來的時候在修訂之前是不是會出現所謂的空窗期嘛所以說我覺得加這個其實是讓行政機關比較好處理啦所以我是覺得我加一下還是比較好好各位委員還有沒有意見"},{"start":20800.263,"end":20814.802,"text":"張宏祿委員我是覺得啦齁其實不用在我們母法裡面啦齁其實也不用寫到那麼的細還把管理辦法寫進去他本來就要立執法了嘛"},{"start":20815.302,"end":20843.624,"text":"那而且我們就現有的這個不管是民眾黨團或是陳亭妃行政院版他們的第三條其實都一樣啊那我就覺得其實也不用特別修改啊好 謝謝各位委員還沒意見"},{"start":20846.392,"end":20872.533,"text":"行政單位針對牛新庭委員駕駐的字跡有沒有意見?是不是?那牛新庭委員是不是照我們行政院辦的?好啦,那我就成全了。OK啦,好,謝謝。那我們就第三條就照我們行政院辦的條文通過。"},{"start":20876.308,"end":20898.714,"text":"好,那我們現在繼續進行第四條條文。沒有,剛剛沒有改的第四條就不需要改啦。好,那我們第四條條文其實委員有提案,但是人不帶我們都不處理好不好。好,那第四條條文我們就照行政院版通過。欸不對不對,我新訂第四條啊。"},{"start":20900.957,"end":20928.252,"text":"還沒有還沒有好那第四條我們就照行政院版通過好那我們現在就新增了第四條的修正動議我們許新宇委員我們放開第29月29月大家看一下好先請我們許新宇委員好"},{"start":20928.852,"end":20945.006,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條"},{"start":20946.867,"end":20961.276,"text":"我們這個條例草案我們希望可以新增第4條讓行政院能夠來執行防制打擊詐欺犯罪來涉中央詐欺犯罪防制匯報"},{"start":20962.717,"end":20980.549,"text":"那所以本席的這個新訂的第4條也希望說我也相信我們行政單位是非常重視的只是因為我們看到多頭馬車或者是說現在整個的要打炸牠牽扯的部會太廣"},{"start":20981.309,"end":21006.113,"text":"那如果沒有由中央這邊有一個這個強而有力的來帶領我們擔心這個整個的打詐成效還是有限所以這個部分本席特別提出來也希望大家可以支持 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝喜新委員的提案說明那是不是請行政院的主任起來回復還是要部長回復"},{"start":21008.308,"end":21028.354,"text":"是,我們剛剛已經通過,那就是說可不可以再修正動力,我不知道,在法理上面可不可以再,但是我實質上來回應一下徐信遠所提的部分。徐信遠所提的部分是希望行政院做這樣的中央詐欺犯罪防制匯報,但是這個詐欺犯罪危害條例的主管機關是在內政部。"},{"start":21029.034,"end":21031.495,"text":"審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":21057.077,"end":21069.744,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、�"},{"start":21072.005,"end":21089.509,"text":"如果說他是一個既定的已經現有的專法你在修正的時候沒有這個法條可能就不能提修正動議但因為我們今天這個是草案這個是草案他是制定案而且是全案的修正所以提議增加之條文應該視為修正動議那這一塊應該是沒有問題的"},{"start":21093.55,"end":21119.551,"text":"那第二個是剛剛我們內政部長回覆的就是說他這個因為管理單位在這個內政部所以他覺得這個由行政院來制定這個防制匯報他覺得這個層級但是在很多的法條裡面也都有也都有可以啊還是可以定有行政院所以這一塊你們這個行政院我不知道您有沒有"},{"start":21120.652,"end":21131.158,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":21138.522,"end":21138.682,"text":"陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":21159.875,"end":21173.802,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查"},{"start":21188.755,"end":21204.293,"text":"要求行政院證錯。 還是附帶決議好不好?附帶決議。 要求中央機關應該要重視這件事情。 附帶決議。 其實部門針對... 那看大局是附帶決議。 針對附帶決議的說明,看行政委員可不可以。"},{"start":21216.111,"end":21218.272,"text":"負貸決議的說明可不可以?"},{"start":21236.172,"end":21257.763,"text":"報告主席還有委員跟在這裡做一個補充報告就是我們的治安會議是每個兩個月就在行政院由院長來召開那事實上我們目前的這個打詐會議也在治安會議裡面討論因為這個也是算犯罪的一環這個是第一點那第二個"},{"start":21259.518,"end":21283.667,"text":"我們也有獨房匯報也有治安匯報但是這個都沒有入法它只是在要點裡面規定那都可以執行我的看法是說我們還是維持原案當然是在如果是寫在附帶條款裡面那可能會有一個問題我們每個兩個月就開一次治安會議但是這個只是一年開一次喔那所以這個兩個其實是會有漢格這以上這個補充說明"},{"start":21289.107,"end":21290.088,"text":"陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":21298.146,"end":21316.277,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":21321.54,"end":21337.504,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、"},{"start":21344.38,"end":21344.4,"text":"民眾黨黨長"},{"start":21372.348,"end":21375.891,"text":"負貸決議負貸決議負貸決議負貸決議"},{"start":21395.546,"end":21412.372,"text":"主席,讓他們講一下,我覺得附帶決議這樣下去下去喔,是要他現意的,看怎麼去搞得到喔。你?他要去找我嗎?"},{"start":21412.372,"end":21422.656,"text":"不一樣啦,我說明一下,就像我們平常,我舉一個例子,醫療的都有什麼會議,可是你碰到這個新冠的時候,你就特別針對新冠有一個強項出來。"},{"start":21424.036,"end":21428.8,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":21440.333,"end":21459.488,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":21462.69,"end":21486.077,"text":"現在繼續進行第五條條文。第五條修正動議有徐以珍委員的修正動議,放開第32頁。好,那我們就不處理,就照行政院版本通過,好不好,大家沒意見啦,好,謝謝。"},{"start":21492.693,"end":21519.579,"text":"第六條現在我們進行第六條條文第六條第六條也是我們徐宇貞委員的修正動議但是他不在我們都照行政院版通過好那第六條都照行政院版通過我們現在處理第二張章免跟第一節結免"},{"start":21521.428,"end":21549.058,"text":"我們繼續處理第二章的章名跟第一節的結名就照行政院提名的章名跟第一節的結名就照行政院提案的章名跟結名通過大概每一件沒有就通過了"},{"start":21552.419,"end":21567.003,"text":"第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條我們處理第七條"},{"start":21583.252,"end":21604.671,"text":"七條的修正動力,等一下,續生還有一個新增的第七條的修正動力,他的人不在我們就不處理。好啦,第七條還有一個新增的,行政委員所提案的,新增的,那我們也是不處理,照行政院版通過。好,謝謝。"},{"start":21608.361,"end":21628.346,"text":"這不予新增,謝謝。現在我們處理第8條。第8條有徐證偉宣言動議,還有麥義珍是黃三昌委員的代替。他有兩個版本。好,第8條有徐證偉言的版本,還有麥義珍委員,就兩個版本。"},{"start":21634.846,"end":21635.888,"text":"六十跟六十一月。"},{"start":21647.895,"end":21649.276,"text":"黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員"},{"start":21677.877,"end":21693.96,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯�"},{"start":21704.838,"end":21716.133,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":21719.918,"end":21736.485,"text":"第四、疑四涉及犯罪異常的存款帳戶,這些帳戶必須要給他一個管控的時間、管控的基本基準,還有最重要是他有沒有救濟程序。我們希望能夠加入這幾個字,才避免告誡帳戶求助我們的狀況。謝謝。"},{"start":21749.73,"end":21772.039,"text":"黃珊珊委員,你那個修正動力有兩個版本,我們是要針對哪一個版本?第二個版本也是針對我們提出的版本裡面,在後面46條之後,我們有訂所謂的金融制裁辦公室,用制裁辦公室來做更嚴謹的這個賬戶的管控,那如果制裁辦公室的部分"},{"start":21772.839,"end":21791.513,"text":"後面會通過的話那可能就要用第二個版本就第8條要改成第二個就是61頁的修正版本所以因為還沒有討論到所以我暫時先沒有提出來好的第8條如果可以在這個程序上面加入這些的話我們後面那個制裁辦公室我們可以不堅持好謝謝謝謝來請行政單位來做說明好不好"},{"start":21797.241,"end":21819.607,"text":"謝謝委員提供的意見我先講一下剛剛委員提到的第8就是第二個修正動議這邊先說明一下因為第8條它的重點就在說要即時性速度就是我們要把這個款要儘速的把它留下來"},{"start":21820.327,"end":21831.482,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":21839.412,"end":21863.3,"text":"二點的話就是剛剛委員這邊有提到說那個第8條後面這邊是不是要訂什麼管工基準、期間或休憩程序這邊跟委員報告因為依照第8條他只是第一時間發現之後他先把他扣住而已但是他下一個動作馬上就要依照第9條第9條去通報警察機關所以這邊的這些程序其實"},{"start":21864.72,"end":21879.521,"text":"對她來講因為她都已經去通報警察機關警察機關第一時間就會來把這個帳戶把它凍結了所以這在第9條情況之下第8條其實在定這些什麼期間啊救濟程序其實就已經沒有關係性了以上"},{"start":21880.141,"end":21880.301,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":21898.846,"end":21919.275,"text":"你有沒有程序?跟委員報告第8條這個是指的是金融機構本身所以金融機構他把這個訊息通報到警察機關之後就是由警察機關這邊來處理的所以第8條這部分我們是不是建議維持行政院的版本這樣子但是這些警察機關的處理程序在哪裡規定?"},{"start":21921.447,"end":21921.787,"text":"懲罪判決事項"},{"start":21945.907,"end":21974.116,"text":"第八條的最後一項我們有授權訂定一個執法那在這個執法裡頭如果就像跟警示帳戶的做法其實是類似的就是如果對這個通報又控管的這個帳戶認為有意義的話那基本上所以我就請你把這你要訂的執法的項目把它寫清楚啊管控的基準期間跟救濟程序把它寫在你的執法裡啊"},{"start":21974.736,"end":21987.845,"text":"就計程序依照現在的訴願法跟行政訴訟法已經有明定所以說我們覺得這邊應該可以維持行政院所以結論就是還是解決不了我剛剛講的問題嗎告誡章會無解現在接下去也會無解嗎"},{"start":21992.646,"end":22011.259,"text":"委員報告其實現在實務上其實就已經有在運作了那如果說他這個帳戶如果說這個 如果你實務上運作我們就不會接到這麼多陳情案了嗎這麼多委員接到這麼多陳情案就是因為告誡帳戶無解因為他沒有辦法在30天內證明自己沒有關係跟委員報告"},{"start":22011.599,"end":22011.839,"text":"責任責任責任責任"},{"start":22043.021,"end":22051.292,"text":"我看這樣好不好,我們刑事局跟我們黃珊珊委員來再做溝通。你們金融嘛。"},{"start":22052.974,"end":22072.869,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":22078.595,"end":22107.206,"text":"好,那我們現在第八條我們先保留,我們現在進行第九條條文。好,第九條有我們習以正委員的修正動力,習以正委員不在,我們就照行政院版通過,有沒有意見?沒有。好,沒意見,好,謝謝。好,現在我們進行第四條。"},{"start":22113.235,"end":22130.842,"text":"第十條我們也是政委員的修正動議那因為人不在我們就不予此理那就照行政院版通過現在我們進行第十一條好好好"},{"start":22134.393,"end":22155.511,"text":"負貸決議可以確認嗎?我這邊改了。但是他們那邊有點慢。我的意思說是不是,因為我已經給他們我們修改的啊。那不然請他表示意見嘛。不然行政單位不要一直拖。我們行政單位齁。"},{"start":22158.345,"end":22176.38,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":22178.716,"end":22186.762,"text":"第11條有黃捷委員跟徐以貞委員的修正動議黃捷委員不在我們就不處理徐以貞委員來第36頁謝謝"},{"start":22213.51,"end":22220.972,"text":"十二條嗎?現在是現在才我們的行政院提案是第十一條對照的是第十二條"},{"start":22230.915,"end":22231.956,"text":"審訊委員審訊委員審訊委員審訊委員審訊委員主席"},{"start":22258.072,"end":22258.652,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":22283.838,"end":22292.605,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":22300.814,"end":22311.121,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":22331.154,"end":22353.756,"text":"不是啦,因為已經討論過了,尊重大家,不可能討論以後再反對他,去逃脫我國嘛。現在是討論第11條啦,第11條大家還沒有什麼意見。對啊,跟我說有什麼意見說,跟你們這樣,沒有來我的行政單位提議的,還有什麼。我們行政單位齁。"},{"start":22357.205,"end":22365.907,"text":"行政黨會是對黃捷委員提的那個草案有意見,不曉得現在要討論嗎?沒有啦,現在黃捷沒這個沒辦法說啦,欸,一視同仁啦,一樣啦。就針對我們習以貞委員的提案。對啦,他現在人在這裡,有在這裡要跟你說啦,我沒辦法,怎麼解決的啦。第36頁,這個白色這一個,第36頁。"},{"start":22384.969,"end":22386.351,"text":"西藝珍委員的第36、36頁。"},{"start":22406.133,"end":22406.714,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":22425.387,"end":22432.174,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":22446.469,"end":22475.43,"text":"正確的話那其實徐委員的意見是不是就已經包含在裡面了我們就可以照院板繼續前進又或者是徐委員有其他的意見那是不是就這個部分那不管是院這邊內政部這邊或者是徐委員這邊是不是也可以說明一下哪個單位就院板說明一下如果徐委員得到滿意解答我們就可以繼續走下去了這樣好不好因為他聽起來是NFT嘛如果有包含那就是就包在裡面了啊"},{"start":22475.93,"end":22481.733,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":22494.005,"end":22495.626,"text":"因為當初虛擬資產事業的人員這個東西只有包含金融投資跟支付"},{"start":22508.632,"end":22526.945,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":22529.281,"end":22529.361,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":22560.166,"end":22579.4,"text":"那請教一下因為現在NFT的詐騙這麼猖獗那請問會在哪個地方會有規範?當初在指定這個主管機關就我們金管會這邊沒有就沒有接受到NFT這樣一個指定的"},{"start":22585.063,"end":22589.153,"text":"我想請問一下NFT你們金管會認為要不要納管?要不要納入?"},{"start":22593.953,"end":22620.389,"text":"NFT因為我們一直都沒有對這一塊有著墨啦那所以我們對它性質也並不是那麼清楚這樣子我們管的就是沒有包含到NFT這一塊我們是包括所謂的虛擬貨幣包括是穩定幣跟非穩定幣這部分但是NFT這部分它並當初在我們接受行政院的指定的時候就並沒有包含這一塊對那請問這個有哪個主管機關來負責"},{"start":22633.407,"end":22650.533,"text":"請問你處長來回答NFT的部分我的建議是說不要納入這次的草案裡面因為NFT它的本身的架構是去中心化的所謂去中心化就是它根本沒有server所以全世界各國都管不到"},{"start":22651.033,"end":22651.153,"text":"財政局局長"},{"start":22666.44,"end":22667.562,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":22683.001,"end":22697.271,"text":"這是技術上的建議是主席我可以發言嗎我想確認一下我們現在的採用的這一套打詐防詐騙的這個標準是有可以接近世界上的各國的哪一套標準嗎是什麼美國的啦還是歐盟的啦還是有什麼樣狀況嗎我們用一個什麼樣的標準嗎那我們是不是"},{"start":22712.3,"end":22739.885,"text":"蘇、謝謝蘇委員我來代答一下我所了解他是根據這個在法國成立的防制洗錢金融行動工作組織叫做FATF裡面的範圍目前好那我也跟部長交換一下意見我不曉得我自己有沒有認知錯誤啦有的話因為部的資訊應該是比我還要更清楚嘛就我的了解的話我們其實是有參酌就是您剛剛說的法國也就是說比較接近歐洲系統的這樣的狀況因為歐洲系統都比較是小國林立嘛"},{"start":22740.345,"end":22746.311,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":22758.463,"end":22775.383,"text":"僅管會提到的那一套系統那那一套系統暫時是沒有把去中心化的NFT是納在這個裡面的但並不代表我們就不重視NFT的詐騙行為所以我們今天要先通過的這一套標準會按照歐盟系統這邊先走"},{"start":22777.485,"end":22784.59,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":22802.042,"end":22802.162,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":22818.496,"end":22831.93,"text":"我整理一下齁照理講是我們這一部法令不是我們可能要跟國際接軌啊跟國際接軌我們要跟國際的標準一致其實這個是不是你們剛剛回答的重點"},{"start":22833.399,"end":22853.441,"text":"是不是是不是不好意思那個委員您這問題因為剛剛在討論是可不可以麻煩您再再一遍你們現在我們這一套辦法其實必須要跟國際的標準接軌然後全球一致的這樣情況之下我們才可以去有評比有什麼的嗎呃是不是這樣委員這邊報告吼"},{"start":22854.502,"end":22883.397,"text":"因為我們這份虛擬資產的定義都是直接連結到洗錢防治法那這洗錢防治法它是國際有通有一個一致的一個規則這樣所以我們洗錢防治法裡面定義就要回到非TAFE這邊所以我們這邊就是一致都要依依跟國際的一個規範要一致啊對嘛所以要跟國際接軌嘛目前還沒有用還沒有納入NFT對不對可不可以用麥克風把這句話講出來目前就是還沒有納入NFT"},{"start":22884.857,"end":22894.623,"text":"那因為後面會有很多什麼要封網的啊、要加下架的會有跟NFT是做不到根本就不是這樣的系統嘛!你要把這段話講出來啊!"},{"start":22898.035,"end":22917.265,"text":"陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":22920.126,"end":22927.148,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":22942.992,"end":22967.161,"text":"去中心化虛擬貨幣全世界沒有任何政府現在有任何的技術可以管得到但是虛擬貨幣的交易所因為它是中心化的所以政府才有辦法去管這個是單純從技術上面來說明因為本席的意見就是說主要是因為針對虛擬貨幣其實損失如果非官媒統一已經超過百億了那我們當然還是希望能夠有一個可以規範這個虛擬貨幣這個NFT的這個"},{"start":22969.622,"end":22969.662,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":22986.676,"end":22995.781,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":23005.106,"end":23026.985,"text":"就是原來是照理說是完全去去中心化應該是很安全可是大家為了把它在交易所上面去交易你才能變現嘛才能把那個虛擬貨幣變成美金什麼可是你很多的詐騙都是發生在那個交易所上面這個是我們現在就是為什麼我們認為說這個事情會很複雜如果現在把它納進來的話會非常複雜是"},{"start":23031.684,"end":23049.252,"text":"好 那我可不可以再追問一個問題並且希望留下記錄所以市長您這邊的意思就等同於是說我們身為立法委員嘛我們當然希望替國人發聲嘛所以各種類型的受害的詐騙各種類型的詐騙受害案件我們都希望可以幫上忙"},{"start":23050.192,"end":23050.392,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":23074.758,"end":23076.599,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":23093.945,"end":23119.697,"text":"那時候所引起大概的這個損失喔你們金管會也有特別提到說相關的這個交易因為不在境內也不是金管會這個核准設立的機構那所以為什麼我要增加第七條就是希望針對這樣子的部分我們能有一個規範那這個部分的話就是想請教說這個到底主管機關或是誰可以未來要怎麼樣如果要的話要怎麼處理那跟委員這邊報告齁"},{"start":23123.852,"end":23142.865,"text":"是,跟委員這邊報告吼,那有關境外的這一些虛擬資產的這些業者吼,我們在洗防法那邊有另外有規定。在第六,洗防法現在目前正在審查的那個第六條裡面就有規定說境外的這些虛擬資產業者吼,他要在國內都要落地,是要成立公司或是成立分公司。"},{"start":23143.465,"end":23150.669,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":23172.601,"end":23190.432,"text":"我們這邊的話是沒有當初沒有接受到那個NFT我們監管是沒有接受到NFT就是NFT的詐騙的話就是鼓勵大家可以用這個方式因為反正無法可管也沒有單位可以管是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":23196.953,"end":23222.009,"text":"來,主席,如果說這樣下去,如果發生在這個單位,都沒人管你啊,這樣也不行啊,這樣也很淒慘啊。好,事實上請我們行政院我們的主任,這是打詐,打詐是你的業務啊,是不是你叫我回答一下,給我們行政委員回答,針對他的問題好不好。"},{"start":23231.065,"end":23244.673,"text":"跟主席還有各位報告那行政院裡面並沒有討論到NFT的執行所以現在這個也還沒有還沒有正式入案來來討論這個這個可能沒辦法在這邊這邊做回答真是太棒"},{"start":23255.178,"end":23282.131,"text":"來,從這邊也凸顯一個問題我剛剛為什麼說一定要行政院剛剛我去溝通的時候我們這個打詐辦公室所有整個打詐的思維還是只落在警政署、內政部其實是錯的現在詐騙這麼多最大問題就是檢察官都點出來NCC、金管會、數位部或叫數法部都可以"},{"start":23283.011,"end":23309.809,"text":"這三大罪犯他們的權責沒有去落實那我們就沒辦法防制詐騙我們警察同仁很辛苦他們長期治安方方面面但詐騙他們現在也很努力但是真的需要其他單位的共同來協助我們才能夠有效地遏止詐騙在台灣每天我們委員每天都一直收到我最近又收到一個3000萬就是虛擬貨幣"},{"start":23312.19,"end":23315.754,"text":"一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、"},{"start":23327.583,"end":23333.087,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員"},{"start":23352.361,"end":23352.581,"text":"財政局局長"},{"start":23368.376,"end":23395.312,"text":"抱歉那個還是在說明是因為NFT或者虛擬貨幣本身我們必須把兩個概念分開來就虛擬貨幣或者NFT本身因為它是去中心化的它在全世界同時存在所以這個委員說得非常對我們必須大家齊心、核心齊力來制止這個詐騙但是這個要全世界各國事實上聯合國出來它可能都管不了何況台灣並不是聯合國的會員國"},{"start":23396.252,"end":23405.277,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":23421.027,"end":23434.944,"text":"蔣介在那個虛擬貨幣上面的一種技術但是事實上現在我的瞭解也是還沒管到那裡因為台灣這個對不起我只能講就技術的部分我能我能說明到這裡謝謝"},{"start":23438.202,"end":23438.642,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":23454.62,"end":23479.915,"text":"徐委員是希望說把NFT入法啦那當然入法就是知識體大那你講不管跟國際接軌也好或是說你失誤在執行你不希望這樣做那我可以理解可是又不希望這樣做我們民意代表總有為民喉舌的責任嘛現在就是有人用NFT詐騙而且金額還不小當初政府也講說要處理那如果說在這個討論的過程中我們沒有弄一套完整的配套跟方法出來讓委員回去可以有交代"},{"start":23480.755,"end":23508.852,"text":"我們當然就變成堅持要入法那整個法案的審議就會陷入僵局所以是不是趕快行政院來你們趕快官員們趕快開會討論一下針對虛偽員的質疑是不是做一個完整的說明包含主管機關是誰未來用什麼樣的節奏幾年之內提出什麼樣的方案去把這個問題處理掉或者是納管那就至少在入法的環節我們就不會那麼堅持這個法篩要不然繼續走下去要不然你後面如果還是像這樣答不出來的話那今天要把審判法案我認為就有困難了以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":23510.236,"end":23539.044,"text":"我想在場的委員大概應該聽到這樣應該都覺得說在針對NFT的部分目前確實是沒有單位主責那也無法可管的狀況之下那是不是也變相的告訴這個詐騙集團這個這塊沒有人管喔那這塊可以來也沒有罰則喔也沒有相關的這個法所以這部分我覺得還是要要整個儘速的釐清啦報告主席我來補充說明我們建議是這個用附帶結遇的方式"},{"start":23540.137,"end":23554.554,"text":"列入讓這個法案先走你們要先回答那NFT的主管機關到底是哪裡?沒有討論也不知道是誰主管"},{"start":23556.926,"end":23571.174,"text":"我再補充說明一下那個NFT它本身的確現在沒有辦法去管但是關於NFT的詐騙其實現在很多的詐騙現在的詐騙形態並不是它是單一個平台它會跳轉譬如說一開始它是在那個"},{"start":23571.854,"end":23580.721,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":23595.593,"end":23617.612,"text":"他如果不是透過這樣的方式勒?他一定是會通過LINE或是FB嗎?他不可能有其他的方式嗎?對,那就是你如果是純粹是NFT的話,那個真的是要全世界各國,可能得召開全世界各國的一個會議,各個國家才能聯合起來才有辦法。聯合起來其實也沒有辦法,對不起,從技術上來講真的就是這個樣子。"},{"start":23619.342,"end":23641.603,"text":"我關心的是我們台灣的民眾不要受騙啦所以我現在只是說很希望說我們這個行政院這邊是不是可以告訴我們一個好未來不管是用什麼方式只要告訴我這NFT未來的主管機關是誰誰可以來處理相關的事件那這樣子的話我想對我們的人民也有一個保障喔對於所有的民眾"},{"start":23647.235,"end":23651.589,"text":"那個徐委員齁你這個我也很認同齁但我看啦齁"},{"start":23652.796,"end":23681.938,"text":"有兩個原因啦一個就是這部法令我們要跟國際接軌他們剛剛說的啦如果沒有這樣我們也沒辦法所以我覺得啦我們要解決NFT我們到時候我們大家都覺得這個問題我們做一個決議啦要求看行政院他們比如說幾個月內或半年之內他確立主管機關然後呢要把這一塊補上我覺得我們這樣才能走下去啦不然"},{"start":23683.359,"end":23683.859,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":23714.426,"end":23740.531,"text":"二、三、四、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":23744.183,"end":23758.076,"text":"應該是我們行政院,你是打詐辦公室的主委,應該是你來負責啊。主席,這樣會怎樣呢?拚到這麼多錢,今天要收這個法,跟這個單位,到沒錢,鄉鄉要想,主人是什麼人,要管的什麼人。"},{"start":23771.509,"end":23787.922,"text":"審判決議之後由行政院再來討論。由我們行政院來負責吧,因為你是打詐的單位啊。行政院打詐辦公室的主任,你今天來是層級最高的啊,當然你要去負責啊。"},{"start":23789.056,"end":23792.358,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查"},{"start":23816.015,"end":23834.086,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、十二、十三、十一、十二、十三、十一、十二、十三、十一、十二、十三、十一、十二、十三、十一、十二、十一、十二、十一、十二、十一、十二、十一、十一、十二、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十一、十"},{"start":23837.185,"end":23863.125,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":23865.871,"end":23866.652,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":23883.848,"end":23883.988,"text":"審查委員會長"},{"start":23908.539,"end":23929.866,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、"},{"start":23932.168,"end":23935.05,"text":"因為我們也很希望打大的轉法趕快"},{"start":23955.487,"end":23962.189,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具 «詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":23977.353,"end":23995.02,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件"},{"start":24005.282,"end":24013.689,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項"},{"start":24027.6,"end":24050.332,"text":"如果金管會可以承諾再來就可以放手不敢金管會不敢這個問題這個財政委員會討論過太多次金管會不敢死都不接所以說我就說大家都不肯承擔然後現在說要我們當作承擔對阿那你是金管會速發部哪個單位那時候是說速發部那時候都傳言說是速發部但速發部是不接阿"},{"start":24051.773,"end":24056.518,"text":"當初那個就是正式正式那個女政黨女政黨女政黨女政黨女政黨女政黨女政黨"},{"start":24074.463,"end":24083.232,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":24094.015,"end":24120.941,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":24122.854,"end":24122.874,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":24148.48,"end":24158.906,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":24177.435,"end":24198.282,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":24200.794,"end":24201.314,"text":"姜美院長說沒來"},{"start":24216.58,"end":24232.005,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺"},{"start":24232.165,"end":24232.185,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":24257.756,"end":24264.166,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":24266.22,"end":24289.285,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":24291.045,"end":24311.304,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":24313.466,"end":24336.78,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":24337.74,"end":24357.163,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐�"},{"start":24358.544,"end":24372.467,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":24385.846,"end":24404.527,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":24405.428,"end":24431.101,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":24433.882,"end":24455.196,"text":"2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":24455.276,"end":24469.8,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":24482.124,"end":24500.337,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":24503.104,"end":24522.476,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":24526.918,"end":24535.705,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":24546.534,"end":24560.63,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":24561.591,"end":24574.819,"text":"反正不會影響7月16日現場的事項。然後請他們好好跟議事到底是要不要當作MLP的主管習慣。今天他們就兩個單位嘛,金管會跟速發部嘛。我們這邊二則一而已啊。那些金管會要當主管警方還是速發部嘛?"},{"start":24581.182,"end":24581.202,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":24601.498,"end":24615.408,"text":"我有發那個中央社發的新聞稿,4月1號,蘇貞昌表示一個月之內要指定那個主管機關,NFT的主管機關。你是個人發給我的嗎?沒有,我發到那個群組伍貞團隊那個群組。欸?對,這個已經過了,怎麼可能?"},{"start":24625.915,"end":24651.58,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查"},{"start":24653.78,"end":24653.96,"text":"審查委員會長"},{"start":24677.544,"end":24700.302,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":24701.553,"end":24719.274,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、"},{"start":24719.804,"end":24738.285,"text":"3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":24739.042,"end":24758.902,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":24760.443,"end":24760.463,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":24790.785,"end":24814.014,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、"},{"start":24815.354,"end":24831.333,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":24831.973,"end":24847.569,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":24852.814,"end":24880.779,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐"},{"start":24882.239,"end":24899.109,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":24899.469,"end":24919.822,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐"},{"start":24924.582,"end":24942.498,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":24967.062,"end":24975.169,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":24978.451,"end":25003.641,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":25004.901,"end":25010.706,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":25033.326,"end":25034.488,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":25057.896,"end":25073.192,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":25087.073,"end":25100.586,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":25110.265,"end":25138.552,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、四、五、十一、二、三、"},{"start":25139.388,"end":25157.513,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":25162.749,"end":25180.837,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":25184.198,"end":25199.082,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":25209.505,"end":25224.693,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":25225.753,"end":25251.988,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":25256.178,"end":25263.201,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件"},{"start":25289.991,"end":25314.474,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":25316.101,"end":25331.852,"text":"2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":25339.933,"end":25360.08,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":25361.783,"end":25389.377,"text":"11條、12條、13條、11、12、13"},{"start":25390.613,"end":25402.315,"text":"行政院到第13條行政院的版本13條我們的11、12、13先保留好不好主席主席主席主席要保留待會的第12條先請問一下好不好"},{"start":25416.527,"end":25429.777,"text":"來,12條,在這兩天,你有公免處其業務上應保守秘密之義務該機關及事務之事業及負責人及當事及經理人及職員"},{"start":25439.693,"end":25442.196,"text":"行政院提案第12條"},{"start":25462.481,"end":25484.834,"text":"是謝謝委員指教第二項的部分其實我們原來的立法意旨是說針對金融機構訂的不過其實要保護的應該也包括委員剛剛說的從業人員在內人有關的人齁不要說應該啦有沒有啦現在是包含在人有沒有啦對當時設計的時候是有包含在裡面沒有當"},{"start":25489.136,"end":25494.059,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具 «詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":25521.018,"end":25532.146,"text":"十一條、十二條、十三條保留。現在我們第二屆的結名就照行政院提案的結名通過。有沒有意見?沒有。"},{"start":25534.414,"end":25543.239,"text":"好,那就通過。那現在處理第14條,第14條條文。好,第14條,我們是政委員有修正動議,在37月,大概37月。"},{"start":25555.963,"end":25570.332,"text":"四、五、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":25583.366,"end":25603.803,"text":"第15條有蘇巧慧委員、習以珍委員。蘇巧慧委員不知道我們就不處理。那就請習以珍委員來做說明。蘇巧慧委員:「因為我有多一條,所以上面是這樣調整。」好,那就照行政院版通過啦。好,謝謝。"},{"start":25610.565,"end":25635.805,"text":"現在我們處理第16條的修正動議還是我們習政委員的提議還是一樣好那就照行政院版通過好謝謝第17條的修正動議還是我們習政委員對一樣跟行政院版一樣好OK謝謝那就照行政院版通過"},{"start":25641.85,"end":25661.345,"text":"第18條修正動議也是我們市議專委員在38頁也是一樣好那要照行政院版通過來第19條修正動議也是我們市議專委員也是照行政院版好謝謝"},{"start":25667.658,"end":25687.733,"text":"二十條修正動議有我們施巧慧委員、黃潔委員、徐以貞委員、劉行廷委員。好。好。那我們施巧慧委員跟黃潔委員不在,我們就不處理。好。那現在徐以貞委員跟劉行廷委員來做說明。"},{"start":25691.323,"end":25706.782,"text":"這就是我今天早上在詢答的時候提出來的概念就是說按照你本來的條文在技術可行下你只是用這個護照號碼登錄的方式但是因為今天早上答詢的時候你很清楚講基本上就是黑美卡條款只有一國一家"},{"start":25707.643,"end":25724.989,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":25732.891,"end":25751.677,"text":"使用電信的人向電信事業臨櫃提示身份證明公何對登錄者電信事業不得提供境外高風險電信事業提供之全部或一部國際漫遊服務這第一個那另外一個是我們其實另外今天早上時間比較短沒有講到就是說除了說這個用這種方式借名使用之外有沒有預期拘留的問題啊"},{"start":25752.637,"end":25761.639,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":25779.015,"end":25798.016,"text":"第二項跟第三項的預期停留或拘留之分我們同意這樣子修正但是第一項的部分的話我是建議還是仍然維持行政院的條文因為行政院的條文的話它是在影響我們外國的旅客以及我們台胞入境的時候"},{"start":25799.177,"end":25803.121,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":25812.53,"end":25839.179,"text":"早上我們其實就針對這件事情有做過討論嘛我們現在擔心的是他一樣買這個黑莓卡然後買黑莓卡進來之後他變成用各種詐欺的方式去取得不同的護照號碼你會不會反過頭來要查的時候變得很複雜就是你可能多一層詐騙的可能就變成他在騙人家的護照號碼來用有沒有可能這樣變成這樣問題因為是這樣子就是說以我們最近所碰到的案例有香港某一家他們一次發行了二三十萬的這個黑莓卡"},{"start":25839.759,"end":25851.464,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":25852.103,"end":25852.804,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":25875.287,"end":25900.968,"text":"我剛剛為什麼之所以要反覆確認說到底是幾家如果說很多家被變成高風險那它確實會造成旅客的不便嘛因為變成我隨便買一家都有可能踩到地雷可是現在很清楚只有一家那這一家你本來你就公主於世啊你叫他不要用就好了嘛他有別的選擇嘛 旅客有別的選擇嘛現在你的題目是現在但是我不確定將來會怎麼樣所以我仍然要在打詐與人權之間要取得平衡"},{"start":25901.755,"end":25918.818,"text":"你之所以今天會有高風險電信業者這樣子的一個分類就是因為在各國全世界各地要搞什麼SIM卡或者是這個義付卡這些商家裡面有一些有完整的實名制登記有一些沒有嘛那就是沒有的這一撮才會變成詐騙集團拿來利用的漏洞嘛"},{"start":25919.895,"end":25945.77,"text":"那這一座占總體的比例其實數量是不多的那不多的情況下你就從嚴把關把它徹底殲滅如果這群人希望拿到台灣的市場他就要去修正他的末端讓他的實名制或什麼的然後我們就給他開放就好了他不是搞風險的這才是最終解決問題的方法嘛從嚴把關是我們共同的認知那這個沒有問題現在就是說在方法上是不是哪一個方法是侵害人權最少其實差別只在這裡而已"},{"start":25946.069,"end":25958.684,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、"},{"start":25964.845,"end":25991.765,"text":"二項跟第三項同意啦,但第一項建議人仍然不支持。二、三項嘛,對不對,同意嘛。對,二、三項同意。每位,因為主秘是同意啦。好不好,二、三項,就照劉行廷我們的委員。第一項,我...不擔任大家出選啦,那個...他倒是同一個案啦。他應該是這樣可以了啦。就是這個要變成整條要保留了啦。"},{"start":25992.267,"end":26016.844,"text":"沒有,第一項還是照行政院版嗎?我是希望可以改,因為行政院這樣我擔心啦。這個我有堅持啦,我也很擔心行政院現在的這種方式。那這樣的話可能就這條保留照照。好,那我們這一條就保留。我們保留啦,好不好?這保留。好,謝謝。好,那我們現在處理第21條修正動議。"},{"start":26020.97,"end":26048.04,"text":"我們習以貞委員請大家翻開39頁這條還是條次的這條還是條次好 那照行政院版好 謝謝好 現在我們處理第22條修正動議也是我們習以貞與牛新廷委員我的部分也是條次那看"},{"start":26050.816,"end":26073.471,"text":"我的是預期停留跟拘留,如果剛剛同意就把它修過去,好不好?這個跟前面的是相關的,就是加預期停留跟拘留的條款,只是文字修正而已。好,那我們就照牛委員的修正同意通過。修正通過,好,確定,謝謝。"},{"start":26083.946,"end":26106.2,"text":"二十三條修正動議由王美惠委員與徐以貞委員王美惠在11月徐以貞委員在40月我的部分是條子來美惠來我們行政單位"},{"start":26111.51,"end":26114.224,"text":"23條"},{"start":26118.845,"end":26135.855,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":26142.659,"end":26146.102,"text":"二、三、四條修正動議。24條有王美惠委員、黃婕委員、"},{"start":26168.397,"end":26179.204,"text":"習以珍委員、牛新廷委員各提出修正動議。防潔委員不在,我們就不出力。"},{"start":26185.659,"end":26212.446,"text":"第24條就是有關罰則的部分嘛對因為這部分我是認為其實電信公司大部分都是特許的行業而且都是上市歸公司所以這樣子的一個罰則我覺得相對太輕啦就現在是20萬到200萬以下我覺得相對太輕所以我是希望提高罰則到50萬以上然後300萬以下然後另外針對情節重大者由"},{"start":26213.266,"end":26234.858,"text":"電信主管機關處新台幣一百萬以上兩千萬以下的這個罰還並另期限其改占然後借其為改善者的話要匯商電信主管機關禁止其合配頻率這樣子的話我覺得對於電信業者才有一個規範的一個作用否則的話這個罰則這麼輕對他們來說好謝謝謝謝施政委員我們的罰則都提高來那個王美惠委員我覺得發了太久我也"},{"start":26241.201,"end":26250.984,"text":"二十萬到兩百萬,一百萬到一千萬,我提高五十萬到五百萬,兩百五十萬到兩千五百萬。來,請會長姐。"},{"start":26261.67,"end":26275.889,"text":"我建議能讓維持行政院的條文,主要的是說,因為後面其實有連續處罰的概念了,所以如果假如他不願意做好的話,我們會連續處罰,一次一次的加重,而不是一開始就給他下得很重。"},{"start":26276.59,"end":26291.641,"text":"我是覺得還是仍然維持行政院的條例。這樣來連續處罰多久的時間,他沒有改進,沒有改那個的選擇,要怎麼辦?最主要我現在是跟你說,上線他們訂的是20萬到200萬。我是覺得說,這些電信業者太貴賬,是不是該50萬到500萬?"},{"start":26304.391,"end":26323.111,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐"},{"start":26323.491,"end":26326.593,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":26349.069,"end":26353.811,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":26372.379,"end":26389.955,"text":"還是維持我們原來行政院這個法案的額度?那假設他真的惡行重大的話,後面會有連續處罰嗎?那同時對他的利得...連續...這樣是不是...主席您聽看看新台幣20萬齁,跟新台幣50萬兩百萬...只要說我是要高於五百萬,二十萬怎麼解?"},{"start":26399.775,"end":26405.097,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案。"},{"start":26425.728,"end":26427.69,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":26449.721,"end":26467.229,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":26471.131,"end":26494.648,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":26500.741,"end":26524.914,"text":"如果他只要不要情節中,他只要不要犯的話,那當然,對啊。是,是,了解了解。我們能夠達到我們的。當然指的是說之後的啊,並不是說之前的啊。我是建議這個,因為其實禁止和被評理其實是另外一個處罰了。跟這個其實沒有必然的關聯性。我是建議是不是我們在,"},{"start":26526.297,"end":26526.637,"text":"禁止合併頻率"},{"start":26547.492,"end":26573.587,"text":"那請問一下情節重大者就除了這個罰款之外其實說在這個金額啦對於電信公司來說這真的是這個九牛一毛對他們來說根本不會有什麼感受的啊其實這三家電信公司啊大部分電信公司啊其實都是上市公司啊他還要面對他自己的股東啊對於他自己的商譽啊對於他自己股東的這個他的這個股價其實都有極大的影響這個才是最大的處罰啊"},{"start":26574.898,"end":26587.5,"text":"那個當然不是說我們罰的這些錢,錢當然如果罰的話對他們公司當然你也不要說是不痛不癢,其實對他財務上面還是有一些影響,但是其實影響最大的還是他們家的商運。"},{"start":26589.308,"end":26597.473,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":26614.142,"end":26640.135,"text":"有,如果假設沒有入境紀錄的話在我們20條第1項的但書後面已經特別有強調假設你用黑莓卡但是你又沒有入境紀錄那你要使用黑莓卡之前你必須要臨櫃拿著雙證件要查核完畢你才能夠提供對,等於是有一個實名的對,然後另外我也希望這個情節重大還是要再更詳細的討論然後我也是支持這個法則可以加重"},{"start":26640.762,"end":26645.347,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":26661.667,"end":26685.908,"text":"就是禁止核配頻率那個因為你真的不曉得在講的是哪一段因為現在一方面頻率它真的是目前也是飆售的方式啦那你禁止核配頻率這個這個就假設你要有這個資格你又不不不核配頻率那個那個可能不是很好而且喔而且用禁止核配頻率來當作處罰手段這個還當然是指說他如果有犯的情節重大禁止他未來要去飆售這樣子這樣不行嗎"},{"start":26689.366,"end":26715.773,"text":"因為對於電信業者來說我覺得這個對他們來說才會是真正可以規範到不要讓他們再用這樣的方式或者說他只要不因為只要他不要犯這些應該就沒有什麼問題先保留一下我再回去跟我們同仁還有跟我們的這個我們再討論一下在法治上究竟是不是妥當沒有要保留的話金額就"},{"start":26718.004,"end":26727.707,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":26749.411,"end":26756.076,"text":"審結重大捏。是有。在這。不願增加。那個齁,這樣子好不好。"},{"start":26763.704,"end":26764.904,"text":"貴昌電信主管機關禁止其核配頻率。"},{"start":26786.874,"end":26805.069,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":26807.122,"end":26829.811,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":26832.265,"end":26843.867,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責"},{"start":26861.783,"end":26886.46,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":26889.446,"end":26893.391,"text":"然後禁止合併其頻率。"},{"start":26897.444,"end":26918.955,"text":"主管機關啊,主管機關如果是數位部就是數位部,為什麼要這邊特別寫呢?如果還有其他主管機關勒?因為現在打仗,現在這張是在我們通常會負責。但是呢,但是委員你剛才說的,前面的那個處罰我可以來處理。但是在禁責,但是在頻率的核配這一段,目前呢,目前是全責在數位部,數位部的資源司。"},{"start":26923.527,"end":26924.308,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":26944.332,"end":26966.808,"text":"主管機關就好了吧,因為你下面已經就想了就禁止其合佩頻率了嘛。因為你寫主管機關的話,本法主管機關是內政部,所以在法制上要把它寫清楚。那因為目的事業這邊,在這一張目的事業主管機關是通常會,所以要把它寫清楚。"},{"start":26970.043,"end":26983.686,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":27001.68,"end":27024.791,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":27033.478,"end":27041.304,"text":"黃美惠委員在14月、黃潔委員在23月、徐宜貞委員在41月。大家要參與。主席。在這裡,我認為電信的事件,你的罰款10萬到100萬。"},{"start":27055.086,"end":27068.717,"text":"我認為事實上是台北港覺得太過寒冷,我提高20萬到200萬,會加50萬到500萬,我們訂50萬到500萬。來,看這條提高20萬到200萬這個有什麼意見?"},{"start":27082.272,"end":27105.172,"text":"我的部分也是希望能夠提高到從20萬以上200萬以下的罰款但是後面的情節重大者我是調高到100萬以上1000萬以下那一樣是也是會商這個主管機關禁止其合併頻率"},{"start":27109.281,"end":27133.429,"text":"好 謝謝那黃姐委員勒是想問一下這個情節重大因為其實後面針對那個廣告業者有列嘛那為什麼前面的這一些沒有放進去就是說只有針對後面的廣告業者有列出這個情節重大相關的規範廣告業者不在我這邊沒關係"},{"start":27137.258,"end":27159.931,"text":"現在是哪一條?現在是在25條,但是因為後面在33條,唉唷,對了我是在講說後面有這樣的後面的邏輯跟前面有點不一致啦。是,我們是體系因為我們自己的,因為是延續我們自己電信管理法的體系下來的,那情節重大的部分應該都是個案去做認定啦。"},{"start":27162.321,"end":27183.587,"text":"因為處罰的太陽前面已經列舉了,各式各樣的違法太陽,構成要件都已經有了。那現在就這個構成要件裡面的特殊情節重大,那是個案去做認定。好,對。所以我的意思是說在這一部法裡面你們會因為主管機關的不同,然後像是25條跟後面的39條裡面的這個認定的邏輯不太一致。"},{"start":27191.612,"end":27204.967,"text":"主管機關不同,所以就變成其實因為這一部法裡面你們有分成不同的主管機關導致於你們的行為上就認定的方式可能會前後不一。因為我們業者也不一樣。因為我們管理的業者在電影事業"},{"start":27210.982,"end":27223.587,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件"},{"start":27230.21,"end":27248.381,"text":"陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺�"},{"start":27259.66,"end":27263.142,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":27289.703,"end":27306.654,"text":"二十五條秀一下下面情節重大者處罰五十萬以上一千萬以下然後增加剛剛那個要會商評評錄主管局"},{"start":27321.783,"end":27333.157,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":27344.625,"end":27346.706,"text":"陳亭妃重大電信主管五十九千是不是"},{"start":27386.751,"end":27394.257,"text":"五十到一千,他說要到五百啦,不要再說了啦,大家參詳看怎麼樣。"},{"start":27397.13,"end":27426.036,"text":"因為齁 大家就介意齁你被侵略者太有錢了啦他要去犯規違規你還去同情他那說不過去吧齁對啦我們就訂個五十到一千萬嘛有一個任期嘛對啊你就可以去依照情節的時候再來採訪對啦齁好啦那我們就照這樣通過啦好不好文字修訂齁我們就照案通過"},{"start":27437.858,"end":27448.722,"text":"現在我們處理26條的修正動議。我們是政委員。第42頁。這是條次。這朝行政院。朝行政院版通過。好,謝謝。我們現在要處理第三屆節目。"},{"start":27458.278,"end":27462.582,"text":"審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":27484.555,"end":27487.836,"text":"二十八條修正動議修正動議 法定人數不足"},{"start":27510.309,"end":27536.329,"text":"現在我們處理30條修正動議有我們施巧慧委員、黃婕委員、徐宇貞委員來,施巧慧委員不知道我們就不處理黃婕委員黃婕委員是24之一黃婕委員還有我們徐宇貞委員我是條次那照院版對,我的是條次那就是照行政院版黃婕照行政院版好謝謝"},{"start":27542.328,"end":27567.847,"text":"三十一現在處理三十一條修正動議也是我們蘇巧慧委員跟習以珍委員對,三十一條也是條次在院版好的,那照行政院版通過好,三十二條修正動議我們蘇巧慧委員、習以珍委員對,三十二條也是條次在院版好的,那照行政院版通過"},{"start":27571.138,"end":27576.661,"text":"審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函"},{"start":27594.506,"end":27622.595,"text":"三十五條修正動議是責任委員條次好那我照行政院版通過來三十六條修正動議是責任委員這條也是條次好那就照行政院版通過三十七條修正動議有施巧慧委員是責任委員對我的也是條次好那照行政院版通過"},{"start":27624.076,"end":27635.414,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":27637.617,"end":27666.147,"text":"三十八條嗎?現在我們台灣民眾黨提案的三十九條在放開一百三十四頁那個大本的那台灣民眾黨不在我們就不處理就照行政院版通過沒有行政院版"},{"start":27669.909,"end":27677.512,"text":"三十九、四十一、台灣民眾黨的提案,我們就不予處理,好不好?好,謝謝。"},{"start":27698.193,"end":27722.579,"text":"來再來第39條行政院版的修正動議王美惠還有我們習以珍委員我的也是提高罰則新台幣100萬以上1000萬以下還是一樣照提高罰則嘛主席在這裏面同樣罰則都提高好罰則都提高還有本來他們59、58"},{"start":27727.09,"end":27747.683,"text":"五、五百提高到一千、二百五十萬到兩千五百萬提高到五千、五百萬提高到五千、五百萬提高到五千、五百萬提高到五千、五百萬提高到五千、五百萬提高到五千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千、五百萬提高到一千"},{"start":27750.937,"end":27751.157,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":27766.286,"end":27785.821,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":27787.773,"end":27807.995,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":27808.43,"end":27812.833,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件事項案件"},{"start":27834.907,"end":27843.297,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":27844.656,"end":27865.848,"text":"跟委員報告好,這個主要有兩個原因,第一個就是說這種跨國的網路平台這一類的或者電信商什麼,他們最在乎最怕的事情其實是降速以及跟封網,那這個在其他的那個前面的條文因為不是應該是不適用嘛,所以我們只有在這邊列出來,那這個其實是一個"},{"start":27867.389,"end":27889.779,"text":"最重要的原因了所以結果在我們這邊好因為像其實40條的主管機關也是你們嗎都是速發部也就是說你們只有在認定要不要什麼狀況下要降速或是限流的時候會需要這樣的一個去進行這個就是認定情節重大的這樣的一個過程是這樣子嗎有這樣的程序是是"},{"start":27890.979,"end":27913.217,"text":"還有另外一個原因是因為有﹐然後其他的你們自己判定就好。對,抱歉我剛剛忘了講一件事情,還有另外一個原因是因為有﹐有些這種是跨國的網路平台,那如果說他一直﹐譬如說他一直不願意配合來台灣落地的話,那我們根本就沒辦法去罰他,那我們能做的處置就是降速或是封網,所以這個是我們背後的邏輯,謝謝。"},{"start":27915.427,"end":27926.665,"text":"還有下面那個情節重大者那個地方應該沒改到情節重大者這個地方所以所以這個美會委員你也是你也是建議要改到一億是嗎"},{"start":27933.107,"end":27952.473,"text":"主管單位我們現在完美會委員跟協議政委員提出的有沒有問題因為剛剛討論是有前面的情況所以但是加到一因為這其他的是大概都翻兩倍嘛那這個是翻四倍我們願版的是250萬起跳"},{"start":27954.574,"end":27971.144,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":27976.226,"end":27998.532,"text":"他現在是一個聯繫窗口而已,這個沒辦法跟總副一樣。沒有啦,你現在要什麼法律代表、什麼他們的管理都沒關係啦,我還要提供他那些課金的啦,剛才不要啦,你當後面的職業啦,要讓他們走啦,賺錢賺到這樣,沒有你。中間有個財糧錢啦。對啊,人家賀子他不要去。"},{"start":27999.312,"end":28002.014,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案。"},{"start":28025.703,"end":28048.661,"text":"報告委員唯一另外的一個考量是說如果我們就一億的話會不會說造成那個國際新聞啊就是因為這個因為這些都是跨國的網路平台然後好像我們祭出這麼高的一個這樣我告訴你他過來台灣就要遵守台灣的法令啊所以他們就不敢不敢去委會做單啦我告訴你實在的啦我們告訴自己"},{"start":28051.203,"end":28052.863,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":28085.407,"end":28090.969,"text":"黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員"},{"start":28116.152,"end":28145.236,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":28146.667,"end":28149.356,"text":"三十五、三十九條就照修訂動議通過。來,黃勝山委員。好。"},{"start":28155.108,"end":28183.263,"text":"謝謝主席,那39條主要這個原來條文沒有意見我們只是台灣民眾黨版本本來是希望39條能夠插入有關汽車貨運業的相關也要設所謂的貨到付款的部分啦那但是這個部分如果可以用消保會或其他的方式處理我們也希望行政院這邊來協助讓貨到付款把錢多留幾天不要讓他一下子就撥給客運人然後第二個部分就是說希望能夠"},{"start":28184.522,"end":28198.952,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":28214.975,"end":28215.135,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":28232.045,"end":28257.791,"text":"也謝謝黃委員提醒,確實我們原來這些對於托孕人還有受孕人的責任都在汽車運輸業的管理規則裡面都有規定,如果他沒有照委員的提案,我們是可以拒絕的。另外就跟您剛說的,如果有正義的話,確實會按照消防法這一塊來處理,按照您剛說的。另外,"},{"start":28258.471,"end":28259.512,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":28291.969,"end":28302.328,"text":"三十九條就照王美惠的修正通過,好,謝謝。好,第四十條。"},{"start":28304.465,"end":28320.145,"text":"第四十條的修正動議也是我們王美惠委員、黃潔委員、徐以貞委員三個委員的修正動議。好,三個委員的提案要不要做說明。"},{"start":28322.901,"end":28323.381,"text":"陳亭妃"},{"start":28342.526,"end":28369.645,"text":"好,那我們都照加重嘛就是下限不動,上限加重就是一致性嘛,你的法條要有一致性啦好,那君偶要不要講一下來,五百四十條本來你們訂兩百,大概五百跟你們訂一千,大概兩千五百萬"},{"start":28378.078,"end":28395.842,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":28402.285,"end":28417.168,"text":"來41條的修正動議有王美惠委員還有習以珍委員的修正動議來做說明一樣也是罰則啊不是 趕快趕快那下線就不變啦對好好41條你一百跟兩百跟五百跟一千你說下線不變下線不變"},{"start":28432.056,"end":28451.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28452.465,"end":28461.111,"text":"四十二條修正動議,我們習以正委員,到放開五十月。"},{"start":28482.719,"end":28509.779,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":28512.366,"end":28514.149,"text":"三、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十。"},{"start":28531.449,"end":28534.954,"text":"第58條必須要保留,因為這也進入到NFT的時期。"},{"start":28546.931,"end":28550.114,"text":"五十八條這個就要保留因為牽涉到NFT的事情"},{"start":28575.215,"end":28596.337,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":28597.077,"end":28620.497,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":28621.578,"end":28646.312,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":28652.176,"end":28654.209,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、"},{"start":28657.142,"end":28683.196,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":28685.542,"end":28688.803,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案 案 案"},{"start":28713.486,"end":28740.618,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件 、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":28741.578,"end":28760.469,"text":"2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":28760.529,"end":28767.938,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":28778.097,"end":28796.917,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":28799.619,"end":28822.59,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":28825.611,"end":28841.636,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":28842.336,"end":28870.153,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":28873.435,"end":28896.647,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":28898.763,"end":28926.161,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":28930.247,"end":28958.516,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":28960.897,"end":28984.875,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":28987.097,"end":29012.111,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":29016.314,"end":29034.246,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":29035.447,"end":29055.937,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":29067.647,"end":29084.601,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":29090.952,"end":29103.643,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":29106.084,"end":29121.213,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":29125.27,"end":29138.86,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":29147.148,"end":29162.044,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":29169.053,"end":29190.25,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":29193.952,"end":29205.556,"text":"網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者網路廣告平台業者"},{"start":29218.361,"end":29243.176,"text":"所以這個寫內容我覺得太空泛了,應該是加這個前面要加兩個字寫到內容,這樣才比較明確。因為他在行政院滿說明的時候,他就有說內容是包含到,他真的是他實際上那個內容。他雖然是這樣講的,我真的覺得要加內容是空泛的。那張不是同一張嗎?那張不是同一張嗎?對啊,那張不是同一張嗎?那張不是同一張嗎?那張不是同一張嗎?那張不是同一張嗎?"},{"start":29247.999,"end":29248.899,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":29274.63,"end":29294.614,"text":"臉書投放記者廣告下面出現的留言是詐騙的管道現在留言不是廣告內容但是因為這通報之後是不介入的那我覺得是不是這樣要不然你如果只規範廣告裡面我只能測廣告那我覺得這不一樣我只能命令他停止流放但是這留言就不一樣"},{"start":29303.795,"end":29322.379,"text":"有另外一種就是那種粉絲頁或是社群那個部分,那個就不是廣告的那個?廣告只是貼文,我們投只是貼文,他留言不算啊。對啊,所以我才會覺得說你要把他,比如說他留言去廣告,我們要測試他留言去廣告的那種標誌,他如果只是一張臉來給大家看,那什麼意思?"},{"start":29333.301,"end":29338.923,"text":"他們擔心管太寬了,現行的條例是比較嚴格,如果加了廣告是現收範圍"},{"start":29361.089,"end":29362.39,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":29386.336,"end":29400.223,"text":"應該這樣講,就是業者只針對他有收錢所投放的那個廣告的內容去負責,那前面也有他有相關的責任,可是這一條的話他業者只不用負責,業者只是被動的接收行政機關,他就通報,然後再去下架。對,對,對。你能夠設定到多寬嗎?可以,這個沒有很冷。"},{"start":29417.39,"end":29417.41,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":29429.855,"end":29452.116,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":29457.722,"end":29478.609,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":29480.23,"end":29499.196,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":29500.776,"end":29525.918,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":29541.429,"end":29546.012,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案 案 案 。"},{"start":29548.95,"end":29568.319,"text":"現在我來補充一下針對第25條的補正宣告第一項、第八款及第九款計中兩年內,今改為三年內以及第23條、第三項三項計中以及計為兩年內,改為三年內"},{"start":29580.001,"end":29590.709,"text":"二十二條第十二項及第二十二第一項及第二項後一期或後"},{"start":29593.663,"end":29620.901,"text":"或預期或刪除改為頓耗。第二十四條第一項、第四項及第五款或預期之後均改為頓耗。請問以上更正文字有無異議?"},{"start":29622.776,"end":29647.448,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":29649.613,"end":29674.449,"text":"33條那個可能要文字修正一下33條的第4行他所刊登或播送之內容有涉及詐欺犯罪嫌疑事者我覺得那個因為這個是廣告平台業者那個內容前面是不是要加兩個廣告兩個字加廣告啦好那大家有沒有意見"},{"start":29676.631,"end":29699.612,"text":"行政機關來說明一下好不好第33條大家放開112頁這個沒有問題我們尊重基本上只是文字講得更清楚所以我們沒有意見加個廣告沒意見啦好那我們都加個廣告就文字修訂通過好不好"},{"start":29702.642,"end":29717.346,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":29723.66,"end":29746.909,"text":"好,第33條,播送之廣告內容有涉詐詐欺犯罪嫌疑事實者應先跟先行限制接取。好,大家有沒有意見?沒意見嗎?我們的責任通過。好,謝謝。好,修正通過。好,那我們現在要請大家翻到152頁。"},{"start":29753.513,"end":29771.032,"text":"好,那現在我們請大家放開152頁,台灣民眾黨提案的第四節。好,要不要增訂這個結名,那是不是我們黃珊珊委員。"},{"start":29773.779,"end":29792.217,"text":"謝謝主席我想各位同仁我想我們在台灣民眾黨的版本裏面在第4節46條以下我們訂立了一個制裁辦公室那這個是因為有鑒於詐欺案件在國內的橫行那對於國家的影響並不亞於相關的恐怖打擊"},{"start":29792.858,"end":29807.672,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":29815.299,"end":29827.787,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":29845.439,"end":29851.641,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":29866.445,"end":29895.757,"text":"詐欺犯罪的危害防制條例反而它的額度少然後可能金額上面也沒有做更多的區隔所以我們在提的修正動議這邊會提出來說如果他獲取財務達到1億元以上應該更加重那就這個部分我們希望在43條能夠做個修正所以請大家參著這個修正動議27頁的這個版本我們希望說還是有個區隔1億跟1000萬應該要有所不同以上"},{"start":29899.806,"end":29901.568,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員提案說明,請行政單位做說明。"},{"start":29908.902,"end":29924.09,"text":"主席委員大家好我這邊是人事行政總書的代表那針對那個第46條訂定行政院應設置制裁辦公室並配置專責人力部分那因為行政院已經於112年5月22號設置了打擊詐欺辦公室負責統合辦理打詐業務跟協調及督導相關打詐專責部會落實執行打詐策略行動綱領1.5百"},{"start":29936.357,"end":29950.826,"text":"那同時我們考慮到中央行政機關組織基準法他第五條第三項定了不得已作用法或其他法規規定機關組織之規定原建議不定定相關條文以上好謝謝好來我們主任主席還有各位委員"},{"start":29962.473,"end":29984.144,"text":"針對本案我們也提出了一些說明那詐欺犯罪的本質就是財產犯罪那在現在的在審查這個草案剛剛委員已經知道很多那我們也對這個刑度還有罰完的這個金額都已經有大幅的提高那以後的這個刑責是最高會判到10年"},{"start":29985.708,"end":29998.895,"text":"以上,那如果參酌這個知恐法來訂定這個法令,我們覺得有一些這個自愛難行,那首先這個是聯合國的安理會決議所指定,那我們至今在這裡"},{"start":30001.585,"end":30030.196,"text":"我們覺得是上欄比較引用那另外就是說這些受到制裁的這些人他一般我們都是要等這個判決有罪之後才來行動那如果等判決有罪其實他需要相當的時間沒有辦法做到這個即時攔阻那我們所以我們建議是這個辦公室可以不需要現在來設置好謝謝"},{"start":30035.175,"end":30057.175,"text":"請問黃珊珊委員行政院的聲明我們知道這個是很強力的東西所以如果他們現在這個專法如果沒有辦法二組的話我們將來再來設置也是可以但是就是說我們一樣立法院的態度就是希望你們有更多的工具更多的強力的部分來打仗這個已經要當成國家安全來處理"},{"start":30059.11,"end":30068.739,"text":"我們同意以院版過但是我們希望他們放在心上這個很重要然後就是43條就是院版的部分我們剛剛的修正動議也請大家參與"},{"start":30081.684,"end":30101.392,"text":"好,那我們現在針對台灣民眾黨的第四屆結名,然後到46、47、48、49、50條,那我們就先不予採納,好不好?好,我們黃珊珊委員,可以嗎?"},{"start":30102.657,"end":30114.742,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、"},{"start":30122.711,"end":30140.727,"text":"主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席。來,黃明慧委員。主席"},{"start":30142.39,"end":30156.3,"text":"她說不能加工購,跟我們給她解說看是如何不能加工購。我們的法治要越頂越重,不是這樣。跟剛才問看你們有意見嗎?你還都沒說。來先解說一下跟張宏祿委員的。"},{"start":30167.723,"end":30183.156,"text":"主席還有各位因為這一條會牽涉到我們32條是在處理詐欺的廣告沒有錯33條處理的是貼文也就是現在假冒名人他假冒名人上去他不叫做廣告你如果把廣告兩次放進來我們就沒有下架的機制了"},{"start":30187.77,"end":30195.257,"text":"以內政部警政署立場我們會建議要維持願版的加納兩個字真的是話舍天足了以上說明"},{"start":30208.43,"end":30212.359,"text":"因為如果寫下去真的會覺得說沒出力還放生意,這樣就不好了,要認真啦。"},{"start":30220.046,"end":30237.696,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":30239.414,"end":30253.98,"text":"好,那我們在現在處理第43條修正動議王美惠委員還有麥一貞委員、習以貞委員所提出的修正動議王美惠委員"},{"start":30261.556,"end":30270.941,"text":"就是43條的。本條有說要加重處罰,原本門檻是一千萬嘛。本來是覺得他要五百萬就要處理了啦。五百萬對現在來說也很多耶。所以這是不是"},{"start":30285.356,"end":30308.696,"text":"因為我認為降低的最重要因素是因為這條規定本來就是針對一般的詐欺犯尤其針對刑法339之四的家中詐欺家中詐欺的本身的惡性重大應該不會低到一千萬而已"},{"start":30309.784,"end":30330.607,"text":"三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":30333.015,"end":30358.579,"text":"好 謝謝我代表脈力政委員說明一下我們的提案就剛剛說明了他就1000萬但是洗方法有個1億所以我們希望說這個部分針對1億以上應該要更加重那剛剛我們會委員所說的我們也贊成啦就是就是要加重因為如果有500那有1000那有1億這樣的話才有個集聚否則大家的罪責都一樣這個的確也會造成說大家的投機的心理"},{"start":30359.119,"end":30380.692,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":30385.632,"end":30410.184,"text":"謝謝主席我想一定的級距有不一樣的刑罰效果我們是樂觀啟程應該是要同意但是如果說級距過多比如說定個五百、一千、一億會讓我們的刑度有一點複雜對那現在就是說一千萬我們認為說一千萬那照院版的就是"},{"start":30412.472,"end":30423.529,"text":"三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑、病科三千萬、新台幣三千萬以下的罰金。那委員所提到的吼,民眾黨委員所提到的,如果把犯罪所得一億,"},{"start":30424.687,"end":30444.334,"text":"以上,定為5年以上、12年以下,加重病科,然後新台幣3億元以下罰金,那這個部分的話對於遏止詐欺犯罪應該有它的效益。本部呢尊重委員的意見,是不是就把它定1億跟1000萬跟1億,這樣兩個級距。好,那外媒會委員五百。"},{"start":30451.082,"end":30472.774,"text":"五百五百五十幾因為這個刑度已經很高了這個刑度已經很高了這個刑度很高了所以我們是不是把金額再調高一點我估計五百就很少了你認為我估計一千你如果調下去五百好 這樣我我估計是"},{"start":30479.126,"end":30479.286,"text":"陳亭妃"},{"start":30487.757,"end":30505.029,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":30512.045,"end":30524.744,"text":"對,是請委員能夠支持這樣的法律的設計那接著呢就是涉及到委員所提到43條的第三項這個就跟我們原來院版的不太一樣就是因為院版43條是針對詐騙金額"},{"start":30527.708,"end":30549.521,"text":"然後44條是犯罪類型那現在目前的草案是改革作為就混在一起亂了就是你兩條都亂了那這個部分的話是不是因為我們是著重在44條是著重在集團犯罪以及3年以上3人以上共同複合性犯罪"},{"start":30549.921,"end":30554.725,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":30575.702,"end":30590.808,"text":"三條有前段有後段都會搭配會有四個組合才對這個你只有寫兩個組合也不對而尤其組織犯罪條例的話其實不是只有詐欺他還牽扯到毒品他還有牽扯到暴力"},{"start":30591.943,"end":30619.46,"text":"那這些今天我們把詐欺認為說我這個這個複合性是一個犯罪改天一定會有人認為說毒品也很重要因為他又要另外定一個法律整個就架構上都亂掉這個部分我們用想像進而犯事實上目前操作上是沒有問題的所以希望說就43條就單純我們就是把一千萬跟一億就列得很清楚就是這樣的條文"},{"start":30622.523,"end":30623.364,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":30640.379,"end":30665.076,"text":"他有三個類型第二款是什麼三人以上所以你是放在44條說三人以上的話要加重期刑但是就不一定是組織犯罪啊因為三人以上不一定是組織犯罪所以你44條其實也沒有講到組織犯罪的部分所以我們的意思是說如果你三人以上都要加重期刑你組織犯罪更要加重期刑啊"},{"start":30666.348,"end":30669.171,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":30679.352,"end":30679.492,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":30709.101,"end":30722.507,"text":"喂我提供一下意見是不是把形態的部分整合在第44條然後43條就用比較用金額的先過然後我們把民眾黨的意見放在第44條然後第44條把它完整然後可以重罰我覺得目標應該是這樣好不好"},{"start":30726.846,"end":30747.056,"text":"就是這個一千萬的 我覺得還是考慮了看了 我覺得該五百萬還是什麼因為我覺得五百萬對一般的Base去弄騙五百萬真的很多的我如果你們說你們不一定不相信我存無過"},{"start":30748.666,"end":30753.831,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":30772.162,"end":30787.494,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":30802.306,"end":30829.266,"text":"五百三年以上十年以下一億五年以上十二年以下就這兩段嘛好那我們行政單位好那是不是用文字先先秀一下文字大家看一下你們文字看一下吧"},{"start":30831.323,"end":30851.697,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、"},{"start":30852.328,"end":30857.335,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":30870.766,"end":30893.375,"text":"第43條包括包括委員吼第44條這個部分吼因為我們最主要就是處罰3人以上的集團犯罪那事實上他已經有組織犯罪的概念其實在實務操作上來講你只要3人以上要加重其實已經把這個犯罪組織的概念放進來了"},{"start":30894.375,"end":30921.404,"text":"而且還不用像組織犯罪那麼嚴格喔他還有終止啊還要什麼計畫什麼的所以他只要是3人以上我們就把它提高了我覺得這樣就可以涵掛了那再再再把早上黃國昌問題再問一次3個人以上在網路上面詐騙用的是43條還是44條44條44條3人以上在網際網路但是你的條款是只有三、三九之四第一項第二款"},{"start":30924.502,"end":30949.736,"text":"如果你只限在第二款的話你只有三人以上沒有講網際網路喔那有三人以上在網際網路你是用哪一條第一款第一款對他是三人以上然後犯了網際網路就是會回到第一款回到第一款那就不會加重期刑啊加重期刑二分之一你猜第二款的罪然後用第一款"},{"start":30950.88,"end":30975.285,"text":"對,第一款它就是加,它是複合的,三人一、對,只要其中一個,它複合了,就加中二分之一。所以,你不,我們,我們如果在我們的修法是,你看到我們是34條第一項,其他各款之一啊,我們把它修成這樣不是更完整嗎?"},{"start":30977.233,"end":30999.382,"text":"你為什麼只是34條第一項第二款之罪呢?你如果是處罰併犯你為什麼只要挑第一項第二款呢?為什麼不能像我們的條款是第一項各款之罪然後加重刑刑二分之一然後併犯339條之四的第一項其他各款之一這才是真正的複合啊"},{"start":31003.282,"end":31023.394,"text":"現在就是說原來設計就是在處罰集團就是三人為基底只要這個三人再複合了我們就加重但是現在變成說可能不是三人他不是三人他如果同時是另外的兩款假冒公務員就好了"},{"start":31026.924,"end":31055.604,"text":"他假冒公務人員然後同時用網路這樣的行為就會被你跳到草案的44條裡面來加重刑刑這個跟原來設計我們是要處罰集團是用原意上我如果只是一個人假冒公務人員又用網際網路就不會加重了啊那就回到339指示就不會加重了對不對對對對就不是在這個地方所以就是另外兩款就不會加重了對那我們要這樣嗎"},{"start":31057.654,"end":31057.694,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":31072.743,"end":31088.369,"text":"現在我們是針對集團集團行為才要加重其他的同時具備多款的話我們所以說我知道就是你這邊其實只有一個項目叫做集團嘛對三人以上對所以其他單一的微貿公務員用網際網路就不會加重了"},{"start":31089.403,"end":31114.195,"text":"對 這個最主要就是跟339之事來做一個區隔他就是回到一般的條款而已了他只有一個 就是就不會有加重二分之一的問題所以我們 這是我們的選擇嘛就是我們選擇這個就放過他的意思不給他加重的意思他還是有罪 17號 17已經是五年以下加重了我們並沒有放過他 已經有加重了"},{"start":31117.317,"end":31132.743,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":31142.399,"end":31167.406,"text":"現在是4條,大家現在有共識了嗎?沒有共識。包委員,這個本來就是處罰一個集團的犯罪,那本身就會把組織犯罪也把它納進來。我理解啦,但是我們希望說,我們是要,刑法是一條嘛,刑法本來就有,你再立這個法就是因為要表達我們要更"},{"start":31168.226,"end":31170.447,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員"},{"start":31195.157,"end":31219.657,"text":"一年以上、七年以下,現在又要跳到三年以上。當然會一個人而已,因為條件兩個重複,然後一下子就跳了兩次。這樣子會不會有一點處罰過重了。那我們現在處罰集團犯罪。主席,您要保留的條款就讓我保留一下好不好。好好好。我們再來想一想啦,好不好。好。那我們44條我們就保留,好不好。"},{"start":31225.86,"end":31252.012,"text":"來我再來補充補充報告針對33條就照行政院的版本通過本來是加廣告廣告因為對我們刑事警察警來賠償有問題好謝謝黃珊珊委員是主委不好意思那這樣子剛剛那個制裁辦公室的部分是不是請相關單位來我們辦公室我們再討論一下可能的做法好嗎"},{"start":31252.532,"end":31260.57,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":31267.217,"end":31288.809,"text":"黃委員報告一下針對委員這個版本44條第3項我這邊是司法院刑事廳我報告一下針對44條第3項草案的部分跟委員講一個實例如果依照委員這個版本是要5年以上10年以下可是如果這個草案過的話他可能適用到的對象可能就是一般的小車手"},{"start":31289.91,"end":31317.99,"text":"因為一般的小車手很可能就是犯339知識第一項各款再加上組織犯罪防制條例第三條第一項後段因為他只要三年以上就在實務上就很容易構成組織犯罪條例的參與組織罪那基本上如果是小車手或是小搜捕手他一旦就構成這個五年以上十二年以下徒刑之罪以下從一年以上變五年以上我覺得這個刑度一下子提升的太多那這是第一個第二個就是說如果一旦他變成這麼嚴重的罪的話"},{"start":31318.49,"end":31336.115,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":31346.67,"end":31352.892,"text":"二、三、四條我們就保留嘛你那個到時候到委員辦公室做個報告好不好好不要耽誤時間好不好好那現在我們討論45條修正動議有我們香港報告"},{"start":31377.96,"end":31402.109,"text":"四十五條修正動議習以貞委員條次照院版這照行政院條文我們處理台灣民眾黨提案第五十四條一百七十五頁要回營了我們這樣不處理"},{"start":31404.517,"end":31415.719,"text":"四十六條因為台灣民眾黨還有我們習以正委員第四十六條也是條次那是七條也是我們習以正委員也是照行政院版是八條"},{"start":31435.759,"end":31436.74,"text":"施法院令修正動議"},{"start":31458.726,"end":31474.119,"text":"那是9條的修正動議我先說明一下好 謝謝那個詐欺犯犯罪受徒刑之職這是講要進去關之後啦如果要怎麼樣才能假釋啦那一般來講不是說到一定的時間嗎我們加一條啦經濟能訓練檢定成績合格啦"},{"start":31474.799,"end":31502.18,"text":"讓他在監獄裡面習得一技之長改過自新這樣子才能假釋充分發揮輔導犯罪人的這個功能這是一個那我看司法院的意見我也非常同意就是說如果行為人屬少年以少年時間主義把相關規定辦理文字就有兩條就文字就一起進去修正通過看看大家意見好來各位有沒有意見我們司法院好來來來做說明"},{"start":31504.255,"end":31524.703,"text":"主席在座的委員以及先進大家好那司法院對於這條的部分呢簡單補充謝謝剛才牛委員的這個呃就是提醒吼就是因為我們這條是有關假釋的門檻規定然後我們少年事件處理法對於少年處罰的情況呢在我們的少事法第81條也有明定假釋的門檻"},{"start":31528.724,"end":31547.432,"text":"四十九條的規範是就有期徒刑執行完畢是針對是三年就是三分之二可以有這個假釋的門檻然後我們邵氏法的第八十一條第一項是針對受有期徒刑執行逾三分之一之後所以有兩個這個不同的起義"},{"start":31548.092,"end":31560.621,"text":"那為了避免呢法條解釋的這個疑議所以建議在本條增訂這個呃剛剛所說的就是有關少年的部分因應少年事件處理法相關規定辦理以上補充好謝謝好我們牛先聽委員啊剛才這兩個報告可以吧"},{"start":31568.218,"end":31584.028,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":31597.594,"end":31624.863,"text":"提議的部分的話因為技能訓練在我們監所裡面它在假設審查的時候它本來就會有一定的一個條件那這個部分適不適合把它放在我們這個法律裡面就是來執行就感覺到好像沒有這樣的設計這是屬於矯正機關它內部在審查假設的一個規定那放在這裡好像在體力上好像有點不是"},{"start":31625.674,"end":31626.155,"text":"以比較沒有這樣子的設計,所以請委員參考。"},{"start":31634.19,"end":31656.839,"text":"喂 這個東西的目的就是要讓假釋的門檻變高嘛因為現在實務上大家在打詐的時候最生氣的是什麼第一個刑度太低嘛第二個三部一下子就假釋嘛所以現在大家挺而走險因為我不用付代價不用付成本我蹲個三個月五個月就出來了所以這是警戒給我的回饋嘛也就是說我花這麼久的時間去辦這個案子撐了好不容易把它送進大牢然後三五個月之後就假釋出來"},{"start":31657.796,"end":31678.427,"text":"那這假設過程中顯然我們的監獄沒有辦法發揮教化的功能就是一犯再犯然後就是變成一個惡性循環所以我想把這個條文放進去就把它明文化讓這個東西的其實讓他的難度變高也把這個東西貫徹進去人家真的去搞了一機之長之後你再犯的機率也比較低啦所以我是覺得還是把它列進去比較好好各位委員還有什麼看的嗎好那"},{"start":31687.375,"end":31703.514,"text":"針對我們行政單位有沒有什麼自愛難行這一次的草案呢就已經把假釋的門檻已經提高了那再加上這一個是不是有那個必要性就是說會不會造成"},{"start":31705.202,"end":31708.265,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員"},{"start":31735.026,"end":31761.863,"text":"是不是我們牛委員是不是附帶在矯正機關要假釋的門檻裡面在我們這一部打詐的憲法裡面不要去加註這一段可不可以好啦不然不然這樣我們先保留一下啦那一樣來這個你實務上矯正機關這些SOP或什麼東西提供一個資料來先做一個說明嘛好我們看看狀況我們再來決定那邊先保留好不好好那我們"},{"start":31763.735,"end":31781.253,"text":"第49條就保留好謝謝好第50條的修正動議有王美惠委員、習以貞委員、麥一貞委員麥一貞委員不在就不處理"},{"start":31784.131,"end":31796.938,"text":"我的是條次主席在這兩人行政單位看他們可以如何處理好不好簡單講一下好啦我們行政單位來做說明他那個資料你有沒有來不好意思資料19月19月完美會所提的修正動議"},{"start":31820.98,"end":31821,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":31828.434,"end":31851.565,"text":"包委員,檢察官具體求刑在我們的辦理刑事訴訟應行注意事項第101點裡面就有明文規定,對於惡性重大、嚴重危害社會治安的犯罪檢察官本來就可以具體求刑,所以並沒有說一定限制哪一個犯罪我們"},{"start":31852.95,"end":31873.811,"text":"檢察官提醒檢察官表現一點決心而已,不需要再特別去,其實檢察官利用別的法律我們也可以具體求行,那這裡只是一個提醒檢察官針對,這是一個態度的問題,就是說針對這個案子我們就可以具體求行。"},{"start":31874.565,"end":31888.556,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":31896.528,"end":31919.186,"text":"50條造行政院版本通過第4章章明造行政院提案章明通過有沒有意見沒有意見,那我們通過報告我們委員會內政委員會我們延長開會時間大家有沒有意見"},{"start":31924.517,"end":31952.416,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":31956.903,"end":31958.144,"text":"五十二條修正動議有黃潔委員、徐宇臻委員、 牛新平委員"},{"start":31982.228,"end":31996.158,"text":"五十二條我是想說因為期前防制法第十五之二條第七項裡面有就是這個犯罪的被害人有個案通報的機制那我在想說這一條是不是也應該要放進去讓這個"},{"start":31997.939,"end":32016.958,"text":"如果他是一些詐欺的被害人那有需要的話他應該要會同社福的主管機關建立個案的通報機制讓這些需要社會救助的個人或是家庭讓他們可以及時的獲得幫助就是洗防法裡面有啦"},{"start":32023.074,"end":32048.115,"text":"報告主席 剛才黃委員所問的內容其實就是51條的內容我們是利用165的一個專線就是說在獲得報案的時候其實我們就會有一些心理諮商、法律的輔助這些就會直接跟他接觸你52條如果再訂這些的話那51條就被架空了其實51條的作用就是在"},{"start":32049.396,"end":32065.506,"text":"犯罪被害人的話根據犯保法第3條的規定他是因為犯罪行為致生命、身體或性自主權遭受到侵害我們這一個犯罪是財產犯罪是不符合那個犯保法的規定"},{"start":32066.767,"end":32090.282,"text":"所以是因為是犯保法有規定他一定是他的生命或身體或者是性自主權或遭到侵害才會有犯保法的保護那這個財產上的犯罪是不符合那個法律的規定這是不符合那個法律的規定就是那個權益保障法裡面的規定"},{"start":32092.55,"end":32104.911,"text":"財產犯罪保護的不是這個部分在法條設計上內容就不一樣但是剛才要加的51條就已經可以有那個功能了所以是不是建議用院版"},{"start":32120.378,"end":32143.342,"text":"黃姊委員是不是照我們行政院版?因為51條比較是就是如果他民眾自己去他就自己去需要心理諮商什麼你們幫他轉介然後我指的是說就你們這個司法人員司法警察在執行業務的時候他有發現這樣的被害人他就可以會同社福的主管機關"},{"start":32144.912,"end":32164.044,"text":"就是他可以主動一點去跟社福機關去做接洽就主被動的差異還是對你們來說本來就是會有這個通報的機制如果有的話就就好對你們看一下那個文字其實不太一樣165的報案應該就可以啟動所有的關懷的"},{"start":32170.908,"end":32174.252,"text":"因為現在51條規定的就是這個狀況,我們設計的這51條目的就是在..."},{"start":32193.518,"end":32211.806,"text":"我們的犯保法第12條也有規定我唸一下警察機關跟檢察機關人員因執行職務認為有符合本法權益保障對象時應告知其得依本法申請保護服務及犯罪被害補償及自治權益"},{"start":32213.107,"end":32213.648,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":32232.295,"end":32233.895,"text":"五十二條要照行政院版五十二條照行政院版"},{"start":32261.265,"end":32288.824,"text":"五十一條社會救助社會救助的必要之協助吧就增加這個字跡吧好修正通過好那我們就修正通過啦好謝謝好那五十二條也照行政院版好那我們現在來討論五十三條的修正動議我們習以貞委員"},{"start":32291.893,"end":32314.27,"text":"五十三條。這個也是條次。好。那都照行政院版通過。那五十四條。也是我們行政委員。也是條次。好。那照我們行政院版通過。那五十五條。也是照院版。好。那照行政院版通過。現在就是第五張上了。"},{"start":32318.637,"end":32331.903,"text":"五張張明照行政院提案張明通過,有沒有意見?沒有,就照行政院提名張明通過。再來就56條。"},{"start":32338.326,"end":32338.786,"text":"五十七條保留"},{"start":32362.928,"end":32376.16,"text":"好,那針對我們台灣民眾黨的提案第67條,因為民眾黨不在我們就不予處理,不予採納。好,那第58條也是民眾黨,我們也不予採納。"},{"start":32380.066,"end":32405.788,"text":"民眾黨委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐�"},{"start":32409.198,"end":32426.471,"text":"負擔決議一、面對詐欺犯罪形態及技術不斷演變,各目的事業主管機關應提出具體方案,鼓勵民間以創新科技投入反詐作為防制及打擊詐騙危害,使詐欺犯罪危害防制條例等法案得以落實。提案人委員蘇巧慧等3人。"},{"start":32427.315,"end":32444.437,"text":"負擔決議二有關草案第43條以犯詐欺獲取一定金額以上之財物或財產上利益而未加重刑罰是由司法事務上以往就行為人對於該結果主觀上是否需有所認識多有其見為避免日後司法認定困難有關機關14本條"},{"start":32446.039,"end":32472.39,"text":"立法通過後於立法說明欄中明確揭示本條警系單純的量刑規定之加重變體規定並不具備構成要件的品質因此行為人主觀上就詐欺獲取之財物或財產商利益達新台幣一千萬元一截無需加以認識縱使認識錯誤亦不影響本罪之成立以表示立法者所採取之立場並確實反映國民法律感情提案人委員牛許廷等6人"},{"start":32473.936,"end":32499.061,"text":"附帶決議三、原鄉跟偏鄉因資訊落差利用網路查詢反詐資訊不易而原鄉跟偏鄉最有效的反詐宣導方案是透過人力宣傳因此有足夠警力的宣傳有其必要性為因應本法施行後原鄉跟偏鄉所需警力請內政部應適時補充以維護民眾的權益提案人為高金素美等4人"},{"start":32500.495,"end":32522.561,"text":"附帶決議四、原鄉跟偏鄉因諮詢落差利用網路查詢反詐諮詢不易,為讓原鄉跟偏鄉清楚知悉本法通過後對於民眾的保障與美意。因此,原請內政部於本法通過三個月內,在原住民族地區加強辦理法案說明會並將法案說明會的時間與地點的期程報告送至本委員會。提案人為高津、宿美等4人。"},{"start":32523.661,"end":32545.894,"text":"附帶決議五,行政院未執行防制打擊詐欺詐騙犯罪應涉中央詐欺詐騙犯罪防制匯報。中央詐欺詐騙犯罪防制匯報致召集人一人由行政院院長或副院長兼任,委員若干人由行政院院長就政務委員、有關機關首長及具有詐欺詐騙犯罪經驗之專家、學者派監或聘監之。"},{"start":32549.116,"end":32576.959,"text":"中央詐欺詐騙犯罪防制匯報至少每4個月開會一次,必要時可併入治安匯報辦理。第一項詐欺詐騙犯罪防制匯報決議之事項,各相關部會應落實執行。行政院應每季追蹤、管考、對外公告,並納入每會期向立法院提出之施政方針及施政報告。第一項之詐欺詐騙犯罪防制匯報之組成任務、議事程序及其他應遵行事項,由行政院定之。提案人委員徐欣穎等3人。"},{"start":32581.778,"end":32582.58,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、"},{"start":32597.824,"end":32614.804,"text":"2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":32621.586,"end":32625.851,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":32657.748,"end":32670.112,"text":"第八好請宣讀協商結論宣讀保留條文第八條、第十一條、第十二條、第十三條、第二十條、第四十四條、第四十九條及第五十七條條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":32672.642,"end":32698.357,"text":"請問各位委員照剛才協商結論通過請問有沒有異議好沒異議我們本次審查通過之條文條次條文部分文字及相關法之用以唆遣本席亦是人員整理作以下決議"},{"start":32701.661,"end":32713.915,"text":"討論事項:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案等三案與併案審查環境,擬具審查報告提報院會討論。」請問在場委員需不需經黨團協商?"},{"start":32719.722,"end":32729.607,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":32750.108,"end":32750.128,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":32777.041,"end":32790.744,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":32802.683,"end":32802.703,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、38、39、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、50、50、51、52、52、53、53、54、54、55、56、56、56、57、57、58、59、59、59、59、60、59、60、59、60、59、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60、60"},{"start":32833.785,"end":32841.432,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"}]}},{"id":"15982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15982","video_url":"https://h26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國發會主委劉敬卿暨相關人員主席楊昭杰委員瓊音113年5月27日星期一報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定"},{"start":1796.834,"end":1824.486,"text":"討論事項繼續審查一本院委員黃仁等18人已據離島建設條例第13條條文修正草案案決議另定其繼續審查二本院委員陳玉珍等18人已據離島建設條例第3條第7條及第7條之一條文修正草案案決議另定其繼續審查三本院委員陳玉珍等18人已據離島建設條例第5條條文修正草案案決議第5條條文修正通過除第10款修正為警政頓耗消防建設"},{"start":1825.746,"end":1833.64,"text":"第12款至第16款．款序修正為第11款至15款．並將第12款文字修正為災害防救及濫藏、遁號濫墾、遁號濫建之改善。"},{"start":1838.499,"end":1858.605,"text":"外區均詔案通過本院委員陳玉珍等17人履具離島建設條例第10條條文修正草案案決議令定期繼續審查五本院委員蔡玉儀等21人履具離島建設條例第10條之一條文修正草案案決議一委員蔡玉儀等人所提第10條之一條文不予通過為之現行法條文"},{"start":1859.726,"end":1879.725,"text":"為了討論事項所列第3案及第5案必按審查完畢．據審查報告提報委員會討論不需交由黨團協商．並推請楊昭吉委員求因委員會討論時做補充說明主席宣告通過之條文相關法制用於授權主席及議事人員整理5月29日星期三報告事項．邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢。．農業部部長曾"},{"start":1883.488,"end":1899.833,"text":"．報告後委員陳亭飛等23人提出質詢．經濟農業部陳部長．相關人即席答覆．決定．登記發言委員．處不在場所外決議．經濟發言完畢．詢答結束．回應林國成．劉建國．林俊憲及陳萬庭．所提書面質詢．列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1901.013,"end":1929.168,"text":"3.書面質詢和未及答覆部分,請相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會。5月30日星期四,報告事項,邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席業務報告業務概況．並備質詢。國發會主委劉金青報告後,委員邱益穎等22人提出質詢,均由國發會劉主委及相關人即席答覆。決定一,登記發言委員,除不帶賞者外,其餘均與發言完畢,詢答結束。二,委員名單的話及整個案題,所提書面質詢,列入記錄刊登公報。"},{"start":1929.908,"end":1941.601,"text":"三 書面執行和未及答覆部分請相當單元一周內書面答覆並附資本會 散會 宣讀完畢好 由於在場委員不足三人我們議事錄就暫不處理繼續進行報告事項請宣讀 邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1952.605,"end":1972.38,"text":"好,我們本日議程排定是經濟部的業務報告那我想首先要恭喜郭之輝部長來接任這個我們的經濟部部長那今天是郭部長第一次到經濟委員會來接受委員的質詢我們是不是鼓掌表達歡迎一下那接下來我們就請郭之輝部長進行報告"},{"start":1998.618,"end":2023.764,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好 自會應邀到貴委員會提出業務報告 深感榮幸以下緊究當前經濟環境及本部施政重點 作額要說明 敬請各位委員不吝視教一 當前的經濟環境 今年全球經濟情勢"},{"start":2025.535,"end":2049.689,"text":"持續釋出正向的訊息美國與大型新興經濟體如巴西、印度等都強勁的復甦克服中國、歐洲等內需疲軟等負面因素4月以來IMF、OECD等國際組織陸續上修今年全球經濟成長預測"},{"start":2053.587,"end":2077.242,"text":"從2.7%上升到3.2%不等儘管今年全球經濟保持穩定成長態勢不過俄烏中東等地緣政治衝突加上歐盟美國對中國發動反傾銷調查以及關稅壁壘以及中國近期祭出的反制措施"},{"start":2078.427,"end":2100.433,"text":"均增添全球經濟走向的不確定性另一方面美中為首的集團對抗正在重塑全球政治及經貿版圖角力戰場也觸及目前若不可當的AI應用市場波士頓顧問公司曾經分析"},{"start":2101.701,"end":2124.064,"text":"AI不只可以提升企業20%的生產效率也能幫助全球減少5%到10%的溫室氣體排放那麼這個相當於歐盟2022年排放的規模另據調研機構OMIDI研究顯示到2028年"},{"start":2127.051,"end":2137.717,"text":"深層式AI市場每一年年複合成長率將高達56%臺灣的半導體優勢再加上資通訊產業成熟的發展都讓臺灣在AI時代極具競爭力隨AI商機持續發酵不僅帶動臺灣出口強勁復甦"},{"start":2151.31,"end":2177.744,"text":"國內外各大預測機構皆看好臺灣今年經濟成長重回3%以上我們行政院主計總署最新預測更高達3.9%二、經濟施政方向及作為面對日益動盪的國際局勢本部遵循總統揭示創新驅動的經濟模式發展五大信賴產業"},{"start":2179.639,"end":2192.684,"text":"在半導體系導的基礎上﹐加速促成AI產業創新﹐產業AI應用﹐推動臺灣成為人工智慧之島﹐並透過數位淨零雙軸轉型力量﹐協助中小企業升級﹐同時細緻處理供電穩定等民生關切議題﹐堅定落實2050淨零轉型的目標﹐"},{"start":2209.558,"end":2221.304,"text":"臺灣已在世界中心站穩腳步本部將在境內關外境外關內的創新經濟發展模式下讓世界走進臺灣的同時延伸臺灣的經濟國力透過供應鏈以大代小"},{"start":2227.591,"end":2245.196,"text":"：附海外設立科技產業園區．帶領中小企業．共同拓展國際市場．加速實現．立足臺灣布局全球．打造臺灣經濟日不落國的願景．針對內需的部分．以臺灣美食"},{"start":2247.13,"end":2261.643,"text":"大健康產業引發養生為主要訴求．帶動服務業附加價值提升．並擴大吸引日本、菲律賓、越南等亞林國家來臺消費．將臨近的經濟體擴大為內需市場的範疇。這裡面一、活絡半導體AI次世代通信信賴產業的發展"},{"start":2274.195,"end":2294.133,"text":"在算力等同國力的年代﹐半導體攸關國家安全﹐經濟安全﹐為鞏固臺灣半導體技術領先地位本部依據《產業創新條例》第10條之二提供前瞻技術研發投資遞減之外將積極促成國際半導體AI大廠"},{"start":2300.134,"end":2320.364,"text":"在臺研發投資與國內廠商共同技術合作同時要求引進國際人才來臺駐點產學合作培育我國高階技術人才隨著先進製程及封裝需求不斷擴大將協助國內業者開發半導體關鍵設備零組件及材料"},{"start":2325.919,"end":2354.707,"text":"目標於117年先進封裝設備自主率產值能夠達到25%半導體材料的自主率產值能夠達到35%另外透過跨部會合作推動精創臺灣方案引導國內IC設計業者投入AI高效能運算車用等新興應用領域擴大臺灣半導體生態系的完整性"},{"start":2356.9,"end":2366.724,"text":"臺灣是少數搭上第一波AI熱潮的國家未來5年AI進入成長的爆發期必須加速臺灣AI產業創新、產業AI應用"},{"start":2369.966,"end":2392.155,"text":"本部爭取國際大廠免費提供AI超級電腦部分篡力資源加速建構臺灣專屬深層式AI核心技術同時協助業者開發深層式AI應用示範案例藉此建立深層式AI自主技術實現AI產業化的目標同時攜手"},{"start":2398.726,"end":2419.339,"text":"產業工協會、國際大廠、學校以及培訓機構公司協力建構產業AI課程預計至117年能夠培育出20萬名AI人才並整合補助、租稅抵減等工具、輔導企業導入AI應用"},{"start":2422.796,"end":2447.883,"text":"提升包括傳統產業以及中小企業在內的製造業AI應用普及率至少達50%5G以及太空產業是未來通往智慧生活應用的主動脈本部將補助業者投入發展國產5G與次世代通訊系統自主技術"},{"start":2449.266,"end":2478.487,"text":"在臺灣打造5G開放網絡、國際電測環境並透過實證場域推動5G應用與次世代通訊系統的商用化同時協助發展低軌衛星、中端地面設備通訊模組以及大型相位陣列天線技術爭取切入國際次世代通訊以及中低軌衛星的供應鏈"},{"start":2480.677,"end":2508.994,"text":"第二部分投資臺灣布局全球打造經濟日不落國本部以境內關外以及境外關內兩大主軸對內擴大投資及消費市場規模對外帶著臺灣製造園區走向世界活絡臺灣經濟發展在境內關外方面我們具備半導體精密機械等完整產業聚落"},{"start":2510.394,"end":2536.584,"text":"國際半導體以及AI指標大廠接來臺灣尋求供應鏈合作機會未來將重點鎖定五大信賴以及大健康產業加強對外招商引資針對外資重大投資案件規劃建立預審以及快速審查機制提供更便捷的投資環境同時"},{"start":2539.69,"end":2563.852,"text":"投資臺灣三大方案這個規劃延長實施到116年其中歡迎臺商回臺投資方案將擴大適用至全球臺商回臺投資方案持續擴大臺灣經濟成長的動能另外為吸引更多的外國觀光商務人士來臺灣消費駐足"},{"start":2566.926,"end":2581.319,"text":"本部著眼生活文化習性與臺灣相近的日本、菲律賓、越南等雅鄰國家形塑4億人口的文化生活圈形成內需市場"},{"start":2583.35,"end":2598.62,"text":"規劃邀請國際百大知名品牌進入臺灣,透過免稅條件吸引在臺消費,同時行銷臺灣的品牌,以美食、大健康以及營法養生產業為主要賣點,輔導國內潛力新級餐廳,4年內希望能增加到500顆"},{"start":2610.234,"end":2626.625,"text":"打造優質服務業 進而提高服務人員的薪資水準 面對全球經貿走向集團化區域化的大格局 企業一定要走出去爭取市場的能力"},{"start":2627.799,"end":2654.886,"text":"本部推動境外關內﹐延伸臺灣的經濟國力﹐以供應以大帶小的模式﹐結合臺灣半導體﹐AI等優勢產業﹐規劃於重點國家區域設立科技產業園區公司合資﹐成立開發服務公司﹐與當地洽談合作﹐爭取租稅優惠措施﹐並建置海外單一服務窗口"},{"start":2656.024,"end":2681.376,"text":"掌握當地法規投資訊息提供企業建廠到營運的全程服務給予臺商海外佈局更多的支持此外前往CPTPP或是有恰雙邊FTA協定的國家佈局更可以讓臺商享受低關稅或者零關稅的優惠等同加入區域經濟整合的效果"},{"start":2682.253,"end":2707.078,"text":"延伸臺灣經濟版圖．邁向經濟日不落果的目標。公電穩定為重要任務．持續推動綠能與節能本部對於公電穩定相當重視．隨著AI的投資．雲端的運算．半導體設廠持續增加之下．務實寬估電力成長"},{"start":2709.864,"end":2710.104,"text":"：一共"},{"start":2724.844,"end":2727.124,"text":"以後可因應今年夏季尖峰用的高峰"},{"start":2754.557,"end":2756.319,"text":"臺電優先救用就會用電戶用電量成長遠超過匱限成長以及設備較舊的"},{"start":2776.468,"end":2781.93,"text":"並且透過智慧電網掌握再生能源並往的運轉情形未來持續投入電網強化韌性建設推動電網系統全面升級"},{"start":2802.544,"end":2830.929,"text":"確保臺灣產業以及民眾用電的穩定無虞為推動深度節能、擴大節能規模本部加強節能服務業 的發展規劃專案貸款信保制度以50億元信保的額度增加單一最高3億元貸款的信保額度引導金融業資金投入節能的工作"},{"start":2832.082,"end":2847.827,"text":"搭配節能績效保證的專案的補助以及節能服務團的輔導加速企業落實節能行動住宅方面家電太舊換新補助推動期金已經補助了147萬台冷氣54萬台冰箱促成節電12億度"},{"start":2855.339,"end":2874.07,"text":"本部將向行政院爭取114年到117年4年的經費﹐擴大太舊換新補助措施﹐加速老舊低效率的設備退場。臺灣風光發展的成熟﹐透過離岸風電區塊開發第二期選商﹐協助解決風電業者面臨的挑戰。"},{"start":2882.608,"end":2886.566,"text":"太陽光電屋頂以及複合利用加速光電的部件"},{"start":2888.851,"end":2907.56,"text":"同時將加速氫能、地熱、海洋能等前瞻能源發揮尤其氫能是未來邁向淨零轉型的重要橋接能源技術之一本部將打算氫能區域中心由國營企業帶領進行技術驗證擴大產業運輸以及發電領域的氫能應用"},{"start":2915.267,"end":2924.576,"text":"因應全球2050近零轉型的浪潮以及臺灣業者加入國際綠色供應鏈R1-100的承諾綠電已經成為臺灣產業發展以及出口的關鍵生產要素預計2030年國內業者將迎來第一波重要的綠電需求"},{"start":2939.813,"end":2949.997,"text":"本部會持續擴大綠能發展降低開發成本同時透過統購分銷機制滿足企業購買綠電的需求並持續向社會說明發展綠電對產業的重要性以及創造就業機會的效益"},{"start":2960.103,"end":2974.501,"text":"非核家園是目前法定目標本部全面發展綠電的腳步不變維持安全穩定供電是莊嚴的承諾至於核電是否原意涉及修法的議題"},{"start":2975.851,"end":3000.836,"text":"目前國內對核電廠的使用期限：何時除役等步驟均與法律有明確規範本部尊重大院審議以及討論可確保核安能處理核廢料以及有社會共識是重要的前提本部也會持續關注全球各項核能新技術的發展"},{"start":3004.106,"end":3030.22,"text":"中小企業低碳數位雙軸轉型活絡新創投資中小企業是臺灣經濟穩定發展的重要基石為協助中小企業應應全球供應鏈的重組AI以及淨零浪潮的挑戰本部持續提供綠色永續優惠貸款協助中小微企業"},{"start":3031.654,"end":3051.491,"text":"導入雲端解決方案或生成AI工具至112年起以易後特別預算支持傳統產業以及中小企業﹐低碳化智慧化發展﹐發展人賠再充電提升員工專業技能專家團隊副廠諮詢、診斷以及輔導"},{"start":3057.455,"end":3086.104,"text":"供應鏈以大帶小合作建構減碳與智慧的製造能力或許搭配產業創新條例第10條之一的修法納入AI以及高效能設備投資筆檢帶動個別廠商以及供應鏈製程朝向低碳化數位化的發展建立碳管理能力加速中小企業開啟第二期限"},{"start":3088.308,"end":3105.422,"text":"未來我們會持續培育更多的潛力新創藉由國發基金匡列100億元搭配創投公司加速器策略性投資人以及中大型企業創投等"},{"start":3106.837,"end":3125.823,"text":"共同協助新創以及中小企業於成長過程中取得充分營運資金並依新創不同的發展階段協助籌組團隊優化商業模式取得企業合作時機提供完整培訓輔導發掘臺灣下世代的隱形冠軍結語經濟部"},{"start":3134.352,"end":3143.615,"text":"最重要的任務就是活絡臺灣經濟與產業發展我們會持續壯大臺灣半導體生態系以此為利基擴散產業AI應用讓臺灣在全球AI浪潮下站穩領先的地位並藉由"},{"start":3157.793,"end":3186.471,"text":"以大帶小的模式擴大臺灣供應鏈向海外延伸同時在滿足未來產業發展的需求下確保穩定供電加速綠能多元化發展形塑臺灣良好的投資環境進而吸引國外人才國外的資金來臺灣提升企業競爭力讓臺灣走出去世界走進來"},{"start":3188.403,"end":3207.213,"text":"．盼各位委員．對於本部施政指正事教．本會期送請大院審議的相關議案．亦懇請委員們鼎力支持．敬祝各位委員身體健康．萬事如意以上報告 敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3209.855,"end":3211.196,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":3224.022,"end":3224.222,"text":"有請部長來請郭部長"},{"start":3256.991,"end":3278.822,"text":"好部長首先感謝你那你願意從這個角色的轉換從這個公司治理的領導人變成國家治理的在產業面當中的帶領者所以也期待你成先起後展望未來本期這個質詢的重點在人員提升跟產業升級"},{"start":3280.763,"end":3290.321,"text":"在您報告中當然第一個有提到節能那第二個呢你也提到天然氣在這個人員配比上也即將有50%是由天然氣來做發電彈"},{"start":3294.503,"end":3320.758,"text":"臺灣沒有產天然氣所以如何降低它的成本在國企國營的部分本席從前年開始主張到現在那想演一些細節再跟您得到您的這個明確的主張也就是我具體建議中油跟台電要兩大事業體來合作這樣的國企國營最後你如何面對紅色供應鏈滲透全球我從最後這個議題先開始跟您做個討論"},{"start":3322.819,"end":3333.807,"text":"在紅色供應鏈您剛才花了很大的篇幅去講到了我們的半導體他確實在2024年的產值目前已經成長13.6%達新台幣4.17我們昨天高雄市市長陳其邁市長晚上的時候發出了這個臉書"},{"start":3344.634,"end":3355.093,"text":"期待回答他在這個高雄的同時他的這個運算中心落腳在高雄那我不曉得部長你怎麼看這件事你能夠做什麼"},{"start":3356.536,"end":3361.339,"text":"重點你能夠為這件事做什麼我再給你幾個背景資料為了在5月6號的時候我們行政院陳建仁部長他特別拿下視察男子園區年外道路為了就是強化我國半導體的競爭優勢及南台灣區域的經濟韌性"},{"start":3374.488,"end":3374.528,"text":"臺灣S南帶"},{"start":3404.548,"end":3431.677,"text":"教育部補助了1.8億既有人才既有行政院支持我不知道在回答現在就兩大區域在做這個選擇那我當然認為回答在整個臺灣的半島地來講第二個園區不是在新竹科學園區而是就在高雄我不講南臺灣就在高雄包括我的石化產業在他前端的基底"},{"start":3432.458,"end":3449.335,"text":"負財的部分我們有一條龍的石化產業鏈部長您能夠為這件事情回答能夠他在選擇的最佳地點您認為您個人的評估是什麼那如果是在南台灣的高雄的話您經濟部要做什麼事情"},{"start":3450.444,"end":3452.465,"text":"所以你認為高雄的優勢比中部差嗎?"},{"start":3466.863,"end":3482.73,"text":"是,沒有,您的指教,我的意思是,他會選擇,會打會自己選擇,但是以剛才委員您的這個指教,他應該會選擇你想要他去的地方好,這個是很有一個"},{"start":3484.871,"end":3501.978,"text":"已經有非常暗示性也明示性的一個答案我們就期待回答就落在我高雄投資也建立起台灣第二的半導體的產業群聚聚落第二個您也發了很大的篇幅去講到這個半導體另外我給你一個"},{"start":3509.941,"end":3515.083,"text":"中小企業跟半導體,中小企業的家數現在163萬家,半導體的家數470家,就業人口中小企業是910萬人,半導體的就業人口是29萬人"},{"start":3528.047,"end":3543.213,"text":"年營業額中小企業是3.6兆,半導體是4.17兆,所以您在這個中小企業當中他也穿起了3.6兆跟4.17兆,坦白講我中小企業也穿起台灣經濟體的半邊天"},{"start":3545.054,"end":3560.88,"text":"好但是您看看您的這個報告講得很好我有注意聽你的最後也講得很漂亮我們中小企業怎麼輔助他我爬梳了一下你讓部長知道這個您未來怎麼落實我覺得是非常有難度的因為從預算"},{"start":3563.442,"end":3573.869,"text":"從預算的角度我就隨便爬出 你說智慧機械好 你們的編列1億7千萬然後呢 中小企業 製造業 供應業導入AI應用 你們編多少"},{"start":3577.791,"end":3606.173,"text":"百萬千萬億一億四千多萬好再過去呢你們呢這個合算的啦我就舉一個就好智慧機械產業智慧製造你們合調的喔你們的計畫講得很清楚喔喔你的這個你只要研發的機器一定要往國外輸上限我可以補助到九千萬或者五千萬但是你們知道光是這個智慧機器升級你才補助多少真的合出去四百萬除了你預算小"},{"start":3607.094,"end":3607.555,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3628.198,"end":3647.813,"text":"中油全部都聚焦十大這個蔣經國時代的一個十大十大十大建設全部都落腳大部分都落在我高雄所以我的傳統產業跟金屬構建業石化業跟塑化業我不知道您針對這樣的產業是你講我講這個東西是好多的中小企業喔"},{"start":3648.673,"end":3668.49,"text":"全部我的大岡山地區包括本席的選區整個南高雄所有的中小企業都是在支援鋼鐵金屬構建石化跟塑化業所以部長你怎麼對於這樣的預算規模而且你補助的門檻這麼的高那你怎麼達成傳統產業的升級呢?您的主張是什麼?"},{"start":3674.997,"end":3686.373,"text":"我的想法是要把這些企業都帶到他的客戶旁邊如果他的客戶是在海外就會有我的這個"},{"start":3689.423,"end":3704.093,"text":"進外關內的方式來帶領他的成長部長我時間有限所以我還是點一下你講到這個概念本席也同意但是做法上還是需要這些預算支持你人才的培訓你設備的採購調整"},{"start":3706.994,"end":3726.799,"text":"那包括你廠房相關的一個都要跟著這個調整包括你產品的研發都可能要跟著這些通通都需要國家預算的支持這樣的預算你要不要做個檢討了今年我不曉得來不來得及因為已經邁入6月了在您現在未到下會期你會預算預算的一個審查"},{"start":3727.619,"end":3728.64,"text":"是的,這個在下一次會期"},{"start":3750.801,"end":3766.466,"text":"部長最後這個在WTO下中國扮演的全球工廠的這個角色非常的明顯紅色供應鏈除了治安之外其實在國家大型政策衝擊是非常大的剛才講到的離岸風電"},{"start":3768.146,"end":3771.768,"text":"復合材料的使用：就將面對對岸產品的傾向：水下結構的鋼鐵也將透過第三地利用國內無產製的規則漏洞來打擊我國的金屬產業"},{"start":3786.616,"end":3805.247,"text":"經濟部長,你身為國內產業的大掌門人,協助各產業立足台灣,放眼全球,面對紅色供應鏈的滲透。你的主張是什麼?如何在國家安全的前提下,帶領國家產業走進新藍海,厚植國家競爭力?部長,你要注意您現在的回答。"},{"start":3806.147,"end":3824.393,"text":"你可以是一個主張性的紅色供應鏈如果你是堅決的反對那我各組師以及下面的我的法人就會整個照著做了包括剛才我提的離岸風電的複合材料相關的包括你產發署的署長現在在你旁邊他相關的審查計畫的審查他整個供應鏈的審查他就會繃緊神經所以您對紅色供應鏈的主張是什麼請您明確表態"},{"start":3836.741,"end":3839.108,"text":"我是不允許紅色供應鏈的產品進到臺灣"},{"start":3841.628,"end":3869.791,"text":"那我們我想也跟我們政府現在做的所以我想我們各單位現在目前在執行的計畫也就會繼續這樣執行了好另外我在針對我們兩大國營事業在這個天然氣的國氣國運當中我也非常感謝經濟部有採納本期的建議所以在從2022年的第一次的質詢之後到現在2024年2023年的時候經濟部做了兩件事情第一個你們正式的回應"},{"start":3871.233,"end":3888.909,"text":"交通部航港局說好我既然國企國運那你一定要把它納入大眾物資所以非常感謝經濟部你們也回覆了這個航港局是的我們可以把這個天然氣等同米麥石油石油煤大眾物資變成可以國企國運國企國運"},{"start":3893.573,"end":3919.819,"text":"好那現在呢我要一個這個獨家給你這個訊息我們因為為什麼本席一直主張我天然氣一定要能夠掌握在自己的手中的運輸因為在今年的軍演5月23、24你看這張表這個我永安的表連著三天我的軍事的封鎖我三天沒有一台天然氣入港平均都會有一天入港來卸貨連三天"},{"start":3920.939,"end":3925.846,"text":"部長您身為企業的領導人,你能夠允許你的廠有3天斷料的危機嗎?你能夠允許你的廠沒有備料嗎?你知道我們天然氣國家的備料的天數是幾天?7天欸!才7天欸!我現在就有3天不進來了!"},{"start":3938.422,"end":3965.398,"text":"所以為什麼我要國氣國運好再來這個包括去年這是我現在2024年講的前年2024年的公視我左下角這個新聞好在公視有追到這個新聞中國軍援引斷氣危機好我先在這邊主張這個我第二個你們經濟部有推進的就是你台電也出來說話了好我們台電可以跟中油一樣可以來自購這個天然氣"},{"start":3968.019,"end":3970.902,"text":"本期主張我希望中油現在是這個DS現貨採購的30%全部改由台電來採購但中油擔心什麼中油公會在反對什麼他在反對說哇台電6啊也買天然氣之後啊"},{"start":3986.215,"end":3996.118,"text":"那你會跟我搶生意,國內的天然氣的銷售,你也會跟我中油搶,好,我這邊就把他阻斷了,我具體建議,除了這30%的現貨由台電來採購,自負盈虧,限制他的行為,他的30%的自由採購,採FOP的運輸方式,完全用在發電"},{"start":4007.082,"end":4023.895,"text":"不可以去給我搶中油他現在在天然氣的銷售市場那在中油的部分他在資產的活化他就提供什麼他也是跟台電收錢提供港口租用以及重點人才高雄永安跟台中天然氣人員一起共訓部長您針對天然氣的這個國際國運的議題你怎麼表態"},{"start":4029.076,"end":4031.097,"text":"我還是希望委員能夠精準的掌握一下時間"},{"start":4056.889,"end":4073.738,"text":"好 接下來我們請邱英英委員質詢好 謝謝主席 部長你慢慢來 我請一下郭部長好 請郭部長"},{"start":4082.008,"end":4110.338,"text":"部長早,我剛在臺上一直在觀察您的首次備詢那當然前面第一位委員到接下來到我我發現您的發言非常的簡短但是只回答重點不囉嗦所以我們待會的這個詢答大概也希望能夠幾點就教於這個郭部長您從產業界來說您大概是非常清楚業界的需求"},{"start":4111.999,"end":4130.736,"text":"這兩天大概全台灣的媒體全台灣的這個最關心的大概就是輝達要在台灣這個進行設立台灣所謂的台灣總部等等這些加速在台灣的投資甚至增加台灣的投資當然很多人可能不知道其實過去在2021年的時候輝達就參加了經濟部的大Aplus的計畫"},{"start":4135.26,"end":4152.879,"text":"經濟部其實政府曾經補助過67億這個相較於他在台北的投資在內湖的投資243億元其實是非常的少那未來的整個大台灣的AI研發中心或者是大台灣的總部我相信那個投資是非常多那"},{"start":4154.521,"end":4170.552,"text":"這不懂我們會有一點私心啦因為您知道在經濟委員會裡頭其實來自高雄的委員就有四個所以我相信等一下我們四個高雄的委員應該都會跟您提到這個輝達要設立在高雄這個當然我們會有一點私心但我們像我們舉的這個圖這個雅灣2.0的智慧科技創新園區這個是在瑞隆委員的選區裡頭"},{"start":4177.637,"end":4203.044,"text":"那包括我們的陳其邁市長一直在談到他的第二任任期之內一直在談到AI跟5G AIoT所以我們大概都認為其實設立在輝達的未來的台灣總部如果能夠設立在高雄把整個高雄的科技園區的這個廊帶串聯起來這是一個非常重要的一個產業經營的觀念部長您同意我這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":4204.498,"end":4226.165,"text":"非常同意好 謝謝部長您的同意那這個當然也是黃文勳執行長在前兩天在臺大的演講裡頭就列出了這樣的一張表這大概是他的整個臺灣的輝達在臺灣的供應鏈除了產業界以外當然也有官方也有學界產官學的這樣的一個供應鏈"},{"start":4227.165,"end":4246.554,"text":"其實看到這張圖之後我內心一則以喜一則以憂喜的是說臺灣的供應鏈其實非常的足夠讓輝達或者是其他的這一些AI的產業在臺灣的這個產業鏈上面其實是非常的充足另外一個隱憂就是說其實現在臺灣在5月28號通過了"},{"start":4252.176,"end":4252.476,"text":"外資賣超1041億元"},{"start":4279.954,"end":4299.374,"text":"從5月28號之後所以我想要聽部長您怎麼談如何創造或者是說如何增加外資對於投資台灣的信心這會是您很重要的一個工作部長可不可以請您說明發表一下您的看法"},{"start":4301.666,"end":4329.177,"text":"外資離開臺灣我想他有他的這個考量可能是就他的這個股票他在獲利的部分他想他獲利了結他可能下一波再會進來不過我們從昨天的這個Computex的這個臺北電腦展非常多的這個AI的這個老大跟大佬都到臺灣來都齊聚在臺灣分別來"},{"start":4331.562,"end":4354.802,"text":"臺灣然後要跟我們臺灣的AI供應鏈做一些整合跟合作我相信在這個未來科技的第三個大轉變我想這個AI的時代來臨臺灣的這個擁有的這個實力是令人稱不擇舍的那這些世界的頂尖的廠商都願意來臺灣跟我們臺灣的廠商合作我相信在未來的投資"},{"start":4356.343,"end":4377.754,"text":"一定會更大更有力如果是這樣的話部長那您怎麼樣來更精準的詮釋一下您在口頭報告裡頭談到的這個境外關內跟境內關外這兩個所謂的投資環境跟您未來想要創造的這個整個投資架構的大藍圖我想聽一下您更細部的說明好不好"},{"start":4378.174,"end":4378.515,"text":"經濟部部長列席"},{"start":4391.912,"end":4420.432,"text":"就跟著他走所以我們可以想像的應該現在台積電在美國日本那將來的德國這個也就是我們首先會把半導體供應鏈帶往當地國然後由他們在那邊當地落地生產然後服務台積電以外的客戶幫他們開創新的這個生意機會然後可以接近客戶那麼第二個他也因為現在的地緣政治"},{"start":4421.473,"end":4423.421,"text":"關稀阿跟這個氣候變遷的關稀上現在的這個"},{"start":4426.524,"end":4452.259,"text":"運輸都拉得很長所以他可以接近客戶所以對他來講降低成本然後增加了他的這個競爭力這個是境外關內的部分然後關內的意思是說我們一條龍的幫他服務因為大部分都是中小企業所以我們幫他帶出去的時候不會讓他單打獨鬥在海外那邊自生自滅所以我們就是用這樣的一個觀念然後把它群聚起來"},{"start":4452.839,"end":4479.732,"text":"那由我們經濟部來服務他們這是境外觀念部長我想這個部分可能還需要許多細節細部的這個操作模式可能還需要去討論另外我想要再跟您討論最後一個議題就是說我看到您的這個報告裡頭當然談到非常多是關於AI的產業但是其實經濟部我們曾經在100等一下"},{"start":4480.802,"end":4499.158,"text":"去年5月4號的時候其實經濟部成立了一個叫做TBMC的這樣的一個公司這是跟我們的生技產業是有相關的TBMC就是台灣生物醫藥製造股份有限公司但是部長"},{"start":4499.898,"end":4524.331,"text":"您剛講很多是跟AI有關的但是我沒有聽到您講跟生技產業有關的現在大家其實是在關注生技業會不會成為下一個護國神山那昨天在立法院裡頭其實我們也通過了再生醫療雙法包括治劑的條例很多的生技業者因為這樣的法令通過其實包括我們過去的對於生技產業的這些創新條例的這個"},{"start":4526.732,"end":4526.992,"text":"完全同意"},{"start":4555.647,"end":4582.578,"text":"所以生技產業將是AI應用產業最棒的地方所以我覺得未來不只是在單純的所謂的半導體不單純只是在晶片我覺得在生物科技的研究發展上面我想兩個如果能夠相輔相成的話對於台灣不只是半導體的供應鏈甚至連生技的供應鏈台灣都應該能夠在世界上佔有一個重要的地位"},{"start":4582.958,"end":4583.498,"text":"政政前委員發言"},{"start":4612.089,"end":4613.092,"text":"謝謝主席,我想請一下郭部長來,請郭部長"},{"start":4623.717,"end":4649.196,"text":"部長好第一次在立法院跟您詢答事實上說您一開始被點名變成經濟部長的時候我就接到很多關心你的電話因為在產業界人脈非常非常的多尤其在新竹科學園區很多人都抱持著正面的狀態看你來接這個位置因為大家覺得你從產業界出來可能會更務實去面對一些問題"},{"start":4650.737,"end":4658.657,"text":"那我在想說最近大家都在關心NVIDIA的部分嘛你剛剛是不是有暗示說他可能會落腳高雄是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":4660.236,"end":4684.349,"text":"我是沒有直接聽到他說落腳高雄但是我大概感覺是這個樣子因為現在很多地方也都在爭取包括我們新竹縣因為楊文科縣長也表示NVIDIA其實有跟新竹縣這邊來做聯繫包括雙北、台南其實大家都在爭取所以我在想說這表示其實整個台灣其實在整個"},{"start":4685.089,"end":4690.475,"text":"提到說AI這個部分還有server的部分台灣可以再持50年那這個部分畫出這個餅其實大家都非常的開心那我這邊其實也要特別提到因為"},{"start":4705.633,"end":4730.616,"text":"MVTR如果說要在台灣設他們的台灣總部然後包括算力中心包括他們的一個研發中心等等不管在哪一個地方他都會用到電需要有更多的人然後部長你也特別提到說你希望台灣在未來五年的時候台灣的IC設計產業能夠變全球第二這個目標應該是很清楚嗎"},{"start":4731.637,"end":4745.673,"text":"現在我們已經是第二了我們是說因為這個中國追得很厲害我想我們要更努力所以說這個部分已經是全球第二了對不對我們要如何去維持這個部分"},{"start":4746.954,"end":4766.769,"text":"加上這麼多AI的國際大廠他們可能會繼續在台灣投資包括NVIDIA、AMD甚至於INTEL他們可能都會在台灣這邊那我在想說你提到說整個AI的人才在未來在2028年之前的時候可能要產官學員要增加20萬人"},{"start":4769.011,"end":4769.712,"text":"我們建議公私協會大家一起來"},{"start":4787.825,"end":4812.919,"text":"那除了學校機構以外呢最重要就是透過這個公協會這個以及外面的這個團體那麼全力大家來開課人培培養這方面的這個工程師那如果20萬代表就是如果以我們國內來講我想這個每一個每一個都這個六都啊"},{"start":4813.319,"end":4834.821,"text":"臺灣國會議員"},{"start":4837.024,"end":4864.022,"text":"產業界的一些規劃的時候對於這樣的一個目標覺得達成可能性其實有一點擔心所以他們認為是不是有可能擴大從國外去引進人才這個部分是不是也是經濟部考量的點跟委員報告國外引進人才這個是我們有要求國外來投資的這個業者他要有一半的這個工程師是來自於國外然後能夠跟我們國內工程師形成高階的這個研究人員"},{"start":4865.043,"end":4868.824,"text":"人才肯定是我們在發展AI產業過程當中都最關鍵的一個資源除了人之外就是電"},{"start":4889.329,"end":4912.754,"text":"那電我發現你的回答其實坦白說比其他的格言來得更務實具體因為我發現你之前曾經提到過就是說以目前來說2030年之前供電是夠的可是你也提到2025到2028年AI如果爆發的時候呢可能用電的情況就要再重新評估然後你也提到說必要的時候你覺得核酸也可以用來做backup"},{"start":4913.354,"end":4915.056,"text":"你之前也特別提到說就是世界一定要做"},{"start":4932.731,"end":4958.283,"text":"世界一定要做可是我發現現在整個經濟部跟能源政策當中提到用電的部分的時候全部都是用天然氣發電除了部分的一個綠能一個部分其他幾乎都是天然氣發電然後天然氣發電當中我就發現在整個您的報告當中提到個推動能源轉型的時候提到個低碳天然氣我很疑惑天然氣為什麼什麼時候變低碳了"},{"start":4959.65,"end":4985.523,"text":"天然氣跟這個我們現在的這個煤發電呢它是比較的嘛對不對它是比較低碳的可是事實上我覺得因為事實上天然氣事實上在整個文字效應當中事實上是一個非常不友善的一種能源的一個模式所以我們希望就是整個就是台灣在供電這個過程當中像你剛剛提到說世界的部分一定要做因為沒有做可能對台灣的供電會有影響可是世界的目前的進度到哪裡"},{"start":4991.164,"end":5015.873,"text":"現在正在環評中環評中都還沒有完成嘛 對不對所以對於這個部分的時候我想說之後再請部長這邊到本辦公室來做一個很細部的說明因為我們對整個供電的需求我們是擔心的因為國發會表示其實我們整個AI的一個發展當中的時候我們用電可能會暴增30%三成這樣的一個量那台電是不是能夠因應得了我覺得我們需要有答案"},{"start":5016.773,"end":5033.653,"text":"是的這是很多支持你的科學園區的朋友其實也擔心的問題確實是如此包括很多科學園區的朋友他們都覺得說如果能夠的時候他們可以用SMR的部分來發行小型核電是不是有可行他們擔心台灣的供電是不足的"},{"start":5033.993,"end":5048.984,"text":"部長您可不可以在這部分做一個簡單的回應謝謝委員指教SMR的部分我們會持續的關注如果沒有核廢料或者是核廢料可以安全的處理我們會把它列入考慮"},{"start":5055.23,"end":5064.258,"text":"提到一個相對開放的方式說如果說真的有可能你覺得河山可以back up我覺得這是我聽到對於整個所有"},{"start":5065.459,"end":5068.241,"text":"我們現在首要的就是讓所有用電戶都能夠滿足然後能夠使用"},{"start":5087.438,"end":5114.528,"text":"那這個我過去所說的這個河山的部分就是說因為這個AI的這個投資會比較沒有辦法掌握到是所以我們是做一個推論是所以部長所以這個部分就是您期待的AI的產業跟著用電的部分我們可以再做一個進一步的需求怎麼樣子能夠讓它能夠平衡滿足那最後我要提一個點就是說您可能也是所有的閣員當中最了解大陸的"},{"start":5115.248,"end":5115.448,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5134.751,"end":5156.207,"text":"對立兵等等都點到了那我想要問一下就是你認為上海深圳北京會不會在你規劃的這個擴大內需市場的範圍當中我內需的市場裡面大概分為這個日常民生日常民生的這一部分如果在科技的部分呢不在這個內需的部分"},{"start":5157.338,"end":5184.316,"text":"所以我們歡迎他來台灣來旅遊歡迎他們來台灣享受台灣的美食享受台灣的養生台灣的復健等等這些設施部長因為你既然希望他們能夠來享受台灣的美食來享受台灣相關的好的部分的時候我覺得你可能也要跟交通部在整個行政院的會議當中的時候提早"},{"start":5185.517,"end":5209.865,"text":"開放就是讓大陸的旅遊團能夠到台灣來然後讓台灣的旅遊團能夠過去交流我覺得是必須才是擴大市場的一個部分然後另外最後我再補一個狀態就是您剛剛有在回答我們張偉的時候你提到說我們在境內關外跟境外關內的部分的時候對於整個境外關內的部分你有提到說你之前有點到說要到日本去"},{"start":5211.545,"end":5238.22,"text":"美國德州的提到部分你提到說這跟整個臺積電的全球布局有關所以等於是整個經濟部這邊是被臺積電拉著跑的對不對那我這邊要特別提到一點說坦白說在這個部分當中你也提到說要把中小企業帶出去嘛對不對那麼希望能夠就地服務不過這個地方我覺得可能對於我們的一個產業外移如何跟入臺灣這邊也要同時去平衡好不好好的"},{"start":5239.321,"end":5239.481,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":5268.42,"end":5270.761,"text":"我們10點30分的時候會先休息5分鐘。"},{"start":5303.658,"end":5328.506,"text":"主席發布到現在看起來各界對你期待還蠻高的目前評價不錯不過今天要談你的三大挑戰這應該也是賴清德賴總統當初給你的三大挑戰第一電到底有夠嗎?而且不只要過它要是一個穩定的電而且是低碳的電我們看剛才我們的主席趙薇在說這幾天"},{"start":5332.017,"end":5352.368,"text":"黃仁鑫IC的這個巨頭都現在在台灣嘛這看起來你剛才報告也特別提到了整個AI的這個AI跟這個半導體的發展是你重中之重可是它耗電都非常重喔所以我現在要跟你討論的它你有沒有辦法做到一個穩定的電跟低碳的電來我們看一下看一下第三章的這個問題來"},{"start":5356.006,"end":5368.236,"text":"你現在看你的螢幕,你看螢幕裡面右下角我們先討論我們台灣的電到底足夠之外穩不穩定你看右下角這個圖這是每一個月風力發電的發電量對哪四個月發電,發電量最少"},{"start":5380.336,"end":5406.162,"text":"你這個圖看起來,比較高的發電量就高嘛對不對?那這個比較矮的發電量最少嗎?對西光灰發電量最小?這四個月,這是夏天的時候對啊,那現在嘛,六七八九六七八九不是我們用電統結的時候,最需要電的時候,結果風地發電又是最少"},{"start":5408.185,"end":5416.667,"text":"這裏面從這個圖還看出來一個問題你看12個月裏面高低起伏非常的大而且1到3月跟10到12月"},{"start":5419.092,"end":5440.619,"text":"發電是最多的,其他,特別是我們要電的時候,非常的低,電池鐵,電力重量,對不對?所以它不穩定嘛,第二個點,它有先天的切線,天氣越來越少,發電越少,所以它不見得是一個穩定的電,是不是這樣?對不對?這個結論可以嗎?第二個,不只是風電而已,太陽能也是。"},{"start":5445.543,"end":5472.371,"text":"太陽能也是嘛對不對太陽能不要講說太陽下山就沒有發電了有時候天空飄過一朵雲電力就開始有波動嘛對不對所以這兩個都是不夠穩定的電這老實講國際媒體跟專家也都提出這樣的一個提醒第一你要的是一個低碳的電對不對是一個低碳的電嘛結果你看山內份連亞馬遜都扛不住啦"},{"start":5473.742,"end":5500.187,"text":"亞馬遜花了多少?207.5億去買核電所以你現在克服了兩個很重要的問題第一 再生能源風電跟太陽能我們是要發展沒有錯可是它是一個不穩定的電 今天你剛才在說的你要發展AI半導體它要非常非常穩定的電 對不對?看起來你的挑戰很大第二 核電到底怎麼辦?我們再看下一個連亞馬遜都要花這麼多錢了"},{"start":5503.28,"end":5528.812,"text":"清大河工所的教授 葉教授 葉宗光 他說他特別要提起你剛才鄭鄭前政委員說你有把這個有把這個河山廠當成這個備用的對不對 備援的電力 我是比較高興的你有覺得你的想法好像那個 已經快渴死還沒挖井你有這種感覺嗎 來我分析給你聽喔 我用葉教授的方法分析給你聽 他說你如果要當成一個"},{"start":5530.197,"end":5553.775,"text":"備援的電力 第一核三廠馬上一號機727馬上就要停了要處理你要做幾個動作第一個你先提出你的執照更新的申請第二你要進行必要的安檢跟測試第三你要取得管制機關的原意的許可第四你這個基礎才能夠保持待機隨時可以用你這個動作如果都沒做你怎麼會是備援的電力停了"},{"start":5559.895,"end":5559.955,"text":"報告委員："},{"start":5578.857,"end":5592.794,"text":"這個目前的法還在存在我現在這個法是在這個法的這個框架之下我必須要依法行事所以這個部分那或修掉我就會按照這個程序去進行"},{"start":5594.559,"end":5599.301,"text":"現在是因為依法我是不能夠進行這個程序的所以這一點給委員報告"},{"start":5624.54,"end":5634.726,"text":"最能解決的就是賴清德賴總統嗎?現在是這樣,我考慮在這個法的架構之下,我還有其他的方法嗎?我有其他的方法可以解決現在目前欠電的問題,如果有可能發生欠電,這個要怎麼解決?這因為有法律的問題,我比較難處理,但是我可以利用風跟光的部分來解決這個問題。"},{"start":5650.748,"end":5655.113,"text":"我查台電的這個數據,增加差不多只有4%而已,被你7%你都增加多少,又不穩定了,我們看下一個啦,我知道你在講的是那個天然氣啦,來,你4J到5J接得上嗎?"},{"start":5670.174,"end":5691.179,"text":"四階五階你到底接不接得上?現在三階到明年落軌這個能不能完工老實講有化力的問號當然我們期待可以如期完工影響比較大的四階到五階四階到五階到目前為止都還在還貧阿你告訴人家你用用勒你看一下喔四階現在回到三福三福的這個生態漁業經濟的爭議五階影響更大了"},{"start":5697.441,"end":5715.399,"text":"有白海豚的這個生態的這個爭議他從2021年3月開的第一次的這個環評之後相隔21個月那把現在時間加上去可能有30幾個月都不夠幾個啊你的四接跟五接真的接得上來嗎你如果接不上來真的出了一個差錯"},{"start":5716.62,"end":5740.688,"text":"有天然氣你還沒辦法一轉是沒有錯我們現在是把各種的這個狀況開始在做這個精密的這個評估那剛才委員所指教的這個不穩定的事情現在已經有這個比較智慧整合智慧調度這個不穩定包括AI也是可以禮拜來調什麼樣智慧調度不要調去調到那個"},{"start":5743.249,"end":5771.133,"text":"調到像桃園 桃園一下子停電事件姿勢好不好對好這個也很重要是是是所以剛剛提的老蔣這幾個都是很重要的事謝謝委員執導我來提醒一個重要事情風電這間風電我們是說出了一些事情風電現在已經賣一台賣到六塊了六塊錢對不對結果現在啊買不到買主所以整幾天包括財政部部長接受確定包括財政部部長接受"},{"start":5773.058,"end":5799.371,"text":"執行的時候都說 現在工股的聯貸銀行 剛才都評估可能都有風險 現在兩個問題 工股銀行要不要貸款給他這是一個 因為價錢太高 第二你一套六口都沒人買所以在風電的推動上 又是另外一個問題另外我特別提醒一件事 我們看一下風電當然是要推動國產化可是部長你前陣子有看到 幾個國外媒體的提醒"},{"start":5800.39,"end":5801.891,"text":"我們這個這一部分會接受這個委員的指導這個部分我們會深入評估"},{"start":5826.308,"end":5826.909,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":5856.408,"end":5859.209,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員也謝謝郭部長我們接下來請楊瓊英委員發言來請郭部長"},{"start":5885.868,"end":5886.469,"text":"2030年前不確定嗎?"},{"start":5896.188,"end":5918.555,"text":"本席記得您來拜訪的時候您告訴我一句話我滿心的期待您說你上任之後要盤點臺灣所需的電力所以目前情況究竟是如何請做說明跟委員報告我去拜訪您的時候我曾經確實這麼說我會馬上盤點目前的供電跟需求的狀況"},{"start":5919.155,"end":5919.715,"text":"昨天前天的AI的這個"},{"start":5937.045,"end":5964.584,"text":"對這個需求出來以後變化很大變化很大所以我們要重新再估計好你預計什麼時候重新再估計因為AI的速度並不是1加1加1這個速度很快所以在這樣的情況之下您預估你重新盤點臺灣的電你什麼時候可以給社會大眾來說明清楚我跟這個委員報告如果說這個AI的這個數據中心投資"},{"start":5965.865,"end":5989.917,"text":"我想如您所說的他可能一次就好幾家出來了那以我們目前的估計如果在今年他就是明年要設置完因為他不會是一開始就要這個店但是明年底之前要設店我大概支持5家到6家的數據中心但是如果超過比如說一次來10家那麼我們可能就是"},{"start":5991.238,"end":6012.026,"text":"在考慮我用什麼最快的方法可以增加他們需要的電來支應他們需要的電所以換句話說政府是全力協助對那全力協助之餘我們的來源怎麼來我們的來源現在目前是這樣就是說可以的就是我所了解的蓋一座電廠大概要6年"},{"start":6013.422,"end":6019.066,"text":"你要蓋什麼樣的電廠?請說這個是一個新的論點喔再蓋一座電廠請問那個電廠是什麼樣的電廠?你所謂的6年是什麼樣的電廠?基本上火力的電廠大概要6年天然氣的電廠要6年"},{"start":6037.561,"end":6045.769,"text":"臺中火力發電廠已經貢獻很多,我們不可能再用廢發電。臺中火力發電廠已經貢獻很多,我們不可能再用廢發電。臺中火力發電廠已經貢獻很多,我們不可能再用廢發電。"},{"start":6060.069,"end":6064.774,"text":"您說的綠電,您之前也說核電是一個乾淨的能源,這句話還存在嗎?存在那會延逸嗎?核電會不會延逸?RE100是不承認核電是綠電的"},{"start":6078.428,"end":6078.748,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6099.522,"end":6101.284,"text":"臺中的不管臺中是他本來就要更新的"},{"start":6124.105,"end":6149.277,"text":"我們現在要補這個AI如果超過我們預期的我會先從光開始做從太陽能先從光開始做對 這個還沒有發布啦但是我們優先考慮回答委員您的這個問題我優先考慮的先從光因為太陽光發電是最快的方式"},{"start":6150.954,"end":6151.114,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":6168.53,"end":6191.74,"text":"同時原先生說電力這句話非常非常的重要他有說電力及國力你贊不贊成還有彭松龍理事長也說了算力的領域在臺灣是我們是能力很強所以我們有很好的發展但是要確保電力系統"},{"start":6193.041,"end":6193.181,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6212.797,"end":6238.491,"text":"那這樣的一個情況之下跟你原先所規劃我們不缺電是有所不足的那不足剛剛部長你也提出第一個你希望要蓋一個電廠來充足6年後那會不會緩不濟急當然緩不濟急當然緩不濟急所以你提出來的是救不了你目前的缺電啊不是我剛才是跟委員報告說如果再蓋新的電廠要6年一定來不及"},{"start":6240.112,"end":6267.746,"text":"所以我的意思就是說我要做太陽能發電比較快能夠補這個可能不足的部分你用太陽能要來補AI不足這個會足嗎?會足嗎?部長?可以啦可以?我們有長期規劃有其他的電廠會在這個2027年2028年來接啦因為AI的成長速度目前是不是可以"},{"start":6268.962,"end":6289.43,"text":"準確的來預估似乎我們沒有辦法去定案因為AI是以爆炸式的方式在跳升認同這個觀念嗎認同所以我們的壓力會更大所以本席再一次請教要穩定供電原先我們所規劃的"},{"start":6290.871,"end":6316.622,"text":"我們所規劃的2025年是已經跳票那我們的環境部的彭部長也說了2050年競靈目標也沒有辦法達成今天媒體很大片沒有辦法達成那你要怎麼樣去解決部長我們的問題第一個請問請問2025年再生能源配比的目標你的燃氣50%"},{"start":6320.253,"end":6322.294,"text":"我目前會根據新的需求重新再來調整"},{"start":6348.863,"end":6349.464,"text":"你怎麼去分配?"},{"start":6361.26,"end":6390.222,"text":"我們因為有這個過去呢在沒有這個AI的這個是你告訴我時間好嗎你們去盤點大概多久時間可以告訴我們也請你講王總部長因為這個是重大的政策請教部長你們大概盤點多久的時間可以告訴社會大眾第一個你到底能不能應對這個AI因為電力及國力那第二個你的能源配比什麼時候可以告訴社會大眾是"},{"start":6390.862,"end":6414.9,"text":"我要準確的跟這個委員報告我想在這個這個會期結束之前我一定會想辦法跟你報告具體的這個會期結束是我們現在預估是在7月15號所以換句話說就是下個月中經濟部長你可以告訴我們國內的電力到底夠不夠那不夠"},{"start":6415.68,"end":6415.7,"text":"臺電虧損怎麼辦?"},{"start":6441.545,"end":6466.062,"text":"你會繼續撥補嗎?臺電現在虧損3800億除了政府我們今年拍板定案再補工預算的1000億去年的1500億前年的500億現在是增資3000億那未來部長下次本席也跟你討論到這個問題那我們要怎麼辦?尤其立法院已經通過在院會通過9月的電價"},{"start":6468.023,"end":6488.438,"text":"是緩漲的是動漲的你支持嗎請教部長你支持嗎9月電價因為4月1號已經漲了9月不能再漲了再漲了人民很痛苦啊我想這個電價的部分這個建價工會他會來做決定電價委員會立法院已經做出決議我請你來看到這個問題好不好這個非常重要所以因此本席要請教"},{"start":6498.621,"end":6517.467,"text":"未來臺電如果你不改變他臺電的員工太辛苦了本席也告訴你說你必須要將臺電要怎麼樣處理請你專案來處理你也答應本席所以如果他繼續的虧損你還是會繼續的用公費算來撥補資嗎向行政院來求資源嗎"},{"start":6523.053,"end":6523.953,"text":"臺電的財務必須要靠自己的努力去讓他賺錢"},{"start":6553.151,"end":6577.512,"text":"同樣我們就是國家要補助給這個弱勢的這個團體或者居民的話那個是國家補助這個是屬於國家的社會福利一部分不屬於我台電的這個電費來降你這樣子的說法讓我們是很讚配又很驚訝很讚配又很驚訝那這怎麼辦呢所以我還是給功課好嗎"},{"start":6580.154,"end":6589.08,"text":"臺電的員工很辛苦我們臺灣不能沒有臺電而且你從公司要一分為三研究了幾年又說不分了還是以臺電為基準市場可以自由競價你是以這個論點告訴我們喔所以我還是給一個功課針對臺電的財務請部長解決我們臺電的虧損好的好嗎可以可以喔那你多久時間可以告訴我們方案"},{"start":6609.707,"end":6638.49,"text":"我要了解全盤以後才能夠跟你報告所以我我盡量在會期結束前也是在7月中旬以前告訴我們臺電的財務要怎麼處理那我要拜託你同時跟油一樣喔中油也一樣喔中油已經求助於你喔平穩措施喔他甚至要將啞鈴最低價要拿掉喔你們行政院經濟部拍板的是啞鈴最低價"},{"start":6639.551,"end":6648.194,"text":"這件要拿掉但是你們說要以啞鈴要怎麼樣軍價喔哇那啞鈴最低價跟啞鈴軍價這個有玄機有貓咪喔因為啞鈴裡面包括到日本"},{"start":6657.697,"end":6662.262,"text":"因為前任的王部長答應我,我們的瓦斯一定不能漲,所以我拜託你。"},{"start":6673.835,"end":6673.975,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6691.237,"end":6707.543,"text":"這個部長您可能要多花一點時間,又不能漲價,然後又不能撥補,然後又不能倒閉,這個考量,考驗您的經營,企業經營的能力,這個我也想不到這要怎麼經營下去,不能撥補,不能企業,不能倒閉,這也是厲害,接下來請曾天才委員發言"},{"start":6715.589,"end":6715.749,"text":"部長好好這個"},{"start":6744.117,"end":6764.846,"text":"運酬帷幄之中﹐決勝千里之外﹐這個非常好的一個﹐所以因為你來自這個企業界、產業界﹐所以包括這個國發會的主委﹐所以你們兩個要共同的去努力"},{"start":6766.872,"end":6788.936,"text":"今天你的報告裡面當前經濟環境特別提到維俄烏中東區域等地緣政治衝突事實上是包含了我們臺灣中華民國跟大陸的一個非常重要的一個衝突怎麼樣去減緩這個是"},{"start":6794.062,"end":6794.943,"text":"因為賴總統就職演說提到兩國互不隸屬"},{"start":6810.888,"end":6832.383,"text":"不只是軍演：軍演就一再的擴大然後又宣布ECFA停止134項的產品今天的報告沒有提到到底影響怎麼樣沒有提到應該要做一個補充的說明這個機械工會很感嘆"},{"start":6834.129,"end":6861.892,"text":"寫上加雙出國影響對入市下滑下滑4%到5%所以這個部分作為一個經濟部部長又是來自企業界跟國發會主委就靠你們兩位要去說服行政院長說服總統好我們看這個今天我們談這個核電"},{"start":6864.552,"end":6892.479,"text":"這裏面這是報導這個是不是能源政策的轉向要勇敢的去以專業用專業你的報告裏面提到核安核電議題三大前提核安要確保核廢墟處理社會有共識持續關注全球各項核能新技術的發展這個才是最重要"},{"start":6895.051,"end":6921.042,"text":"全球各項核能新技術的發展然後去說明去說服政府的官員說服各方面這才是重點所以不是最小的要放最大的放第一個尊重國會審議及討論那就是要透過這個世界觀"},{"start":6923.508,"end":6949.716,"text":"實際上的何能的狀況來去說服去說明所以這個部分是這樣我自己是30年公務員常常要透過怎麼樣的自己的瞭解自己的專業去說服甚至要說服過去說服我的政務官都常常去做這種事情包括我們今天也講給我們的很多的事務官包括台電的同仁"},{"start":6951.078,"end":6968.072,"text":"所以這個部分這裡提到本部尊重大院的審議及討論你要拿出你的專業才能夠去說明到底要不是全部的尊重因為是涉及到專業涉及到專業這個部分請部長這邊包括我們的政府的官員來去這是一個大議題"},{"start":6978.568,"end":7006.392,"text":"所以這個部分是一個而且是全球的問題我們是不是還要守住這個過去的一個政策已經執行這麼多年一直要去撥補幾千億給台電對不對所以這個部分要給部長做參考好台灣半導體這個就是當初李國鼎對不對"},{"start":7007.984,"end":7033.194,"text":"李國鼎他用他的專業去說服了蔣經國蔣經國院長他他不清楚這個的那個多先進的對不對科技對不對當然是李國鼎那個說服然後從美國專請這個專業的人回來台灣是不是這樣部長稍微回應一下"},{"start":7036.801,"end":7060.854,"text":"是這一題?不是,包括前面,簡要的說好了。好的,您剛才講說這個核電的問題,我想這個是大家比較關注的。那我們還是一樣,因為現在有這個法的這個框架在,那我一定要在這個法的框架之下,這個想辦法來解決目前可能的,但是不一定會發生的問題。"},{"start":7063.917,"end":7082.476,"text":"對我來講,我們會把最糟糕的狀況考慮進來,來考慮整個國力的發展。電力絕對不可缺,所以穩定供電絕對是我們最重要的一個指標。那用不用核電?"},{"start":7084.264,"end":7107.893,"text":"目前我是不需要用到核電但是未來誰都不知道因為經濟要成長所以會不會用所以我們會持續關注全球的這個科技的進步就像您剛剛所指導的我想對科技的部分對新進的科技的部分我們都不斷的在學習跟不斷的在在這個考慮那如果我們可以達到"},{"start":7109.053,"end":7137.788,"text":"安全無力完全安全無力這個是我們最重要的指標不會產生這個遺害這個後代子孫的這些廢料那這個沒有這個前提我們當然一定會考慮去使用好這個部長立法院不只是立法院行政院也常常提修法的草案到立法院立法院一天到每天在審法案"},{"start":7139.491,"end":7168.715,"text":"所以不要說這是法律的框架只要你把你的專業拿出來不能說再過幾年所以這個部分馬上要去處理了馬上要把你的專業不只是你的專業不一定有這個專業怎麼去收集這些專業世界各國都在推動的東西所以這個部分要重啟也不是那麼快"},{"start":7171.42,"end":7196.636,"text":"也不是那麼快,所以不能等啊,要趕快啊,要趕快去做決定。你要繼續飛和加油,我們也沒意見啦,因為那個是涉及到專業,我也沒辦法有意見啦。這個部分是這樣。好,這個半導體,我就回到這個原住民的部分了。我們原住民是非常欠缺這方面的。"},{"start":7198.083,"end":7225.309,"text":"好 這個原住民學生因為我是原住民我還是要談一下原住民的部分原住民學生大專校院就讀比例這個相關跟這個企業在半導體這方面或是其他的科技的我們就讀的比例很低但是如果已經有還是有還是不少人如果能夠去禁用"},{"start":7226.345,"end":7248.396,"text":"原住民就業也會去鼓勵大家去經驗會有這樣的一個這個趨勢所以這個部分怎麼樣輔導這個協助AI企業因同步保障原住民青年工作權益這個部分給足為一個課題那另外就是說"},{"start":7250.115,"end":7256.98,"text":"這裏面提到自來水的比例,這裏面你提到112年底達到95.67%,113年底預計可達95.83%,這個是自來水的一個普及率。部長你看一下我們原住民的部分。"},{"start":7274.793,"end":7289.52,"text":"一般第7跟原住民部落我的資料111年了所以要請水利署再提供到112年的一個比例所以原住民部落的比例差了20%"},{"start":7291.75,"end":7291.77,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7316.961,"end":7317.121,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7662.149,"end":7682.622,"text":"好來謝謝 謝謝各位媒體朋友"},{"start":7691.504,"end":7692.005,"text":"張家俊委員發言"},{"start":7717.521,"end":7727.427,"text":"主席我想請郭部長來請郭部長郭部長您的上任對產業界來說是非常振奮的消息過去8年來臺灣主管經濟的兩個部長都是從經濟部文官體系所上來的"},{"start":7733.53,"end":7745.142,"text":"所以您的上任可以說是讓整個經濟部都有耳目一新的感覺大家都期待你有一個更務實更貼近民意的作為那上任到現在已經兩個禮拜了從產業界到政務官有什麼特別的感想嗎"},{"start":7754.18,"end":7771.898,"text":"謝謝委員,這個時間可以說這個嗎?可以啊,可以啊謝謝你,當然感想很多啦感想很多,很累嗎?有感覺累嗎?累是不會啦,但是平時我在公司是我問人家,然後我現在當公務人員是別人問我"},{"start":7774.06,"end":7801.593,"text":"您辛苦了但是本席特別要提醒您就是一定要注意一個東西那就是小動物你知道蛇、松鼠、鳥你知道為什麼要注意這些東西嗎因為這些小動物就是造成我們停電的主要原因未來部長一定要詳細的查明那對於台灣未來經濟的破壞您是少數能夠明確具體的提出一個方向的部長"},{"start":7802.253,"end":7810.657,"text":"那您說未來靠AI伺服器跟AI晶片可以讓臺灣經濟再發展50年那加上這幾天有這個AI教父回答的創辦人黃仁勛引來旋風讓臺灣的AI產業可以說是一時成為最熱門的議題那對於AI產業的發展部長認為我們臺灣現在目前面臨最大的挑戰是什麼呢?"},{"start":7827.446,"end":7852.071,"text":"我們現在面臨最大的挑戰就是熟悉AI這個領域的工程師太少我們只會生產AI晶片我們只會做這個AI伺服器但是如何利用AI的這個能力那麼這一方面的這個工程師太少所以他沒有辦法幫助我們百工百業我剛才在講說AI如果做得好"},{"start":7852.771,"end":7852.931,"text":"好,那"},{"start":7872.613,"end":7894.681,"text":"據本席所瞭解除了人才不足之外我們的用水用電的能源供應問題也非常的迫切需要解決那根據統計AI伺服器的耗電量大約是傳統伺服器的3至20倍那在美國CHAT GPT每天要耗"},{"start":7895.461,"end":7896.202,"text":"請問部長目前AI在台灣的用電量大嗎?"},{"start":7914.011,"end":7938.567,"text":"目前還不大目前還不大就是代表未來如果我們要大力發展AI產業就會面臨供電不一定跟得上的情況是嗎委員所說的是對的是那我想要請問部長每年假設這AI訓練跟AI資料中心的用電包括AI晶片的製造依照部長的規劃這兩項產業都蓬勃發展的話台灣每年耗電要增加幾個百分比"},{"start":7947.854,"end":7949.175,"text":"用電是未來最大的變數就是未來"},{"start":7967.21,"end":7969.312,"text":"這3%的預估值到底準不準確因為你看一下這是過去11年來的用電增加的數據"},{"start":7987.265,"end":8000.834,"text":"那其實增加2.9%增加4.7%增加2.8%其實喔這個用電說3%的預估我覺得有可能低估了有可能遠遠超過3%您覺得呢是不是有可能如果蓬勃發展的話那"},{"start":8008.742,"end":8021.75,"text":"3%的預估是根據過去的歷史記錄平均1.8%增加到3%所以有可能其實是會超過3%的對不對這個委員所指教的可能會超過"},{"start":8022.935,"end":8038.255,"text":"那部長知道說我們下一座要除役的機組是什麼時候要除役嗎就是核電的機組都知道今年7月27號就不到兩個月以後我們的核三廠的第1號機就要停止商轉了"},{"start":8039.116,"end":8063.605,"text":"那再過一年明年的5月17號二號機也要停止商轉了這個核三廠除役之後大約會有6%至7%的用電缺口再加上你每年要最基本保守估計3%我們從明年開始每年會有10%的用電缺口那目前我們都是在努力要這個"},{"start":8065.146,"end":8066.628,"text":"部長,您知道我們總共這三年來撥補了台電多少錢嗎?"},{"start":8079.502,"end":8080.062,"text":"您有沒有什麼看法要解決這個問題呢?"},{"start":8109.191,"end":8124.708,"text":"這個目前我因為剛到台第18天所以我還沒有那麼多的時間可以去思考這個部分可能要拜託部長省慎的思考評估有沒有一個新的作為要來突破這個困難因為目前核能每度電是1.1元天然氣發電是他的3倍3.09元那這個"},{"start":8129.873,"end":8139.657,"text":"再生能源的話更貴是5.47元那所以我也很好奇說為什麼我們不用便宜的乾淨的能源呢部長也會不會覺得很納悶呢這個問題我還在思考就是等於是說有沒有可能爭取核三研議呢如果核三研議可以為台灣再爭取兩次三年的空間部長有考慮過嗎"},{"start":8158.207,"end":8179.727,"text":"現在河山的問題是我們都有考慮不過因為河山基於這個法令的規範他一定要這個停議是可以修法其實經濟部也可以主動提修法經濟部有考慮說主動來提出修法嗎跟委員報告就是說他停下來再付大概要三年"},{"start":8181.647,"end":8200.914,"text":"所以你現在還有時間喔!7月27號才要第一座機組停止喔!你現在趕快來提出的還有機會喔!現在是你最關鍵的寶貴時間了!所以根據程序來講的話,那麼他一定要停3年以後才可以再上案"},{"start":8201.873,"end":8224.885,"text":"這個是有機會可以討論的我真心希望說部長您現在好好的跟您的幕僚人員討論這個問題因為在歐洲在美國其實他的核電機組是可以運營到40至60年的那我們其實運營的時間只有他的一半所以我覺得這是值得討論的那另外喔台電產賠4千億是因為天然氣的價格提高這是他們所說的那"},{"start":8229.807,"end":8257.166,"text":"但是我們在一年前就已經回落到戰前的這個價格水平了但我們台電到目前為止還在繼續賠到底我們買了什麼樣子的天然氣合約是不是可以請部長調閱相關資料並公佈合約過去台電也被曾經傳出說購煤的弊案那經濟部就曾經公佈這是有潛力的所以也請部長是不是能夠提供給本委員會相關的資料"},{"start":8260.066,"end":8260.866,"text":"資料一定可以提供給委員"},{"start":8290.707,"end":8317.661,"text":"部長好 部長好想請教一下因為我們看到最近中國又在這個5月31號公告說要終止ECFA部分產品的關稅減讓然後這一次這個終止的部分總共有134項在第一次終止關稅減讓的部分是在去年12月21號他終止的部分是12項"},{"start":8318.942,"end":8318.962,"text":"實劃事項"},{"start":8349.062,"end":8352.905,"text":"那在這個部分有很多都是我們的傳產那要請問一下這個衝擊我們準備好了嗎要怎麼去應對"},{"start":8361.825,"end":8382.712,"text":"這個ECFA的問題我想這個不是第一次所以因為是第二次所以在之前我們都有所準備所以我們盤點過了以後這134項的部分其實它的影響我們在看起來整體出口的影響並不是很大但是就如同委員您所指教的它是傳統產業我們認為就是應該要幫助它趕快轉移市場脫離這一個比較不是那麼"},{"start":8391.015,"end":8391.055,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":8406.032,"end":8406.172,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8422.702,"end":8423.923,"text":"全世界出口的2%"},{"start":8443.524,"end":8443.584,"text":"主席"},{"start":8456.499,"end":8481.013,"text":"因為這些面對的是傳產所以我們傳產其實我知道臺南有很多隱形產業他們早就把市場都轉移了他們並沒有把雞蛋放在中國所以對於這些產業我們更應該全力支持所以我們今天所看到的訊息跟資料雖然在6月15號"},{"start":8482.814,"end":8485.5,"text":"他們將終止第二次的一個關稅減讓"},{"start":8487.95,"end":8488.81,"text":"我們已經有一套辦法"},{"start":8515.495,"end":8516.216,"text":"怎麼去協助?"},{"start":8526.826,"end":8530.289,"text":"所以你們有盤點出來說這2%受影響的是哪些產業而且是哪些項目跟目標這些都有了嗎"},{"start":8552.23,"end":8571.886,"text":"所以這個部分你們都有掌控再來我們總共其實ECFA的找收清單總共是有521項那他一次砍兩次砍第三次他要再砍多少不知道那請問對於這後面的部分我們也有準備好了嗎"},{"start":8572.786,"end":8599.651,"text":"我們會開始來準備趕快來計算一下子然後先跟這些業者能夠做一些溝通然後請他們提升他自己的這個商品轉型對轉型然後幫他因為這個市場不會說只有中國啦是所以任何一個商品我們大概就可以離開中國還可以找到新的市場我想這個在全球上面不會說只有在中國的市場"},{"start":8600.111,"end":8600.832,"text":"謝謝委員因為競爭力就是敏感"},{"start":8623.598,"end":8623.798,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8644.071,"end":8658.623,"text":"我們已經有掌控了他第二次就是這2%受影響的那我們要趕快積極協助讓他們有感而不是現在手足無措這是重點好那我們要再去看"},{"start":8659.804,"end":8687.207,"text":"預防因為中國他要做什麼動作你真的不知道而且我說的我們是一個遇到惡鄰居這個惡鄰居隨時就會干擾那我們要面對說他的干擾我們還可以立於不敗之地也就是要協助我們產業轉型我們不預期說他第三次會有多少又去終止關稅減讓可是我們先針對這些後續"},{"start":8689.844,"end":8716.123,"text":"我們要怎麼幫他轉型盤整一下那部長請問這個盤整需要多久的時間我想我們會透過這一次AI的這個整頓這個AI可以幫助百工百業我想提更效率降低節能減碳的這個效能這個是大家很清楚的所以我們會快速的特別是對中小企業跟這個傳產"},{"start":8718.178,"end":8739.162,"text":"我們希望透過這個機構的力量然後來幫助他們先提升他的競爭力我認為只有提升他的競爭力他路才走得更遠所以我要離開中國這個市場那他必須要有競爭力進到第二個市場所以提升競爭力我個人認為這個是我們勢在必行"},{"start":8742.003,"end":8742.384,"text":"﹚立法院第11會議"},{"start":8759.266,"end":8784.095,"text":"我們可來幫忙他們來做我們先盤整我們是不是利用三個月把這些後續我們要未雨綢繆就是說有可能我們預期好他第三次整個這個都把我們減讓的部分全部都終止掉了我們還可以利於不敗之地三個月把這些有可能受影響的把它盤整出來然後再針對這些盤整的產業"},{"start":8786.536,"end":8789.898,"text":"每一個產業他所需要協助的AI的方向是不一樣的我們要怎麼樣去協助個別否個別的案子否個別的專案我覺得這樣子"},{"start":8812.745,"end":8829.14,"text":"整個企業才會往上提升,他們才會有感,他們才不會擔心害怕,他們什麼時候成為下一波被終止關稅減讓的對象,好不好?是的,我想3個月內我們一定會提出一份報告給委員,謝謝委員。好,謝謝陳廷飛委員,謝謝部長。來接下來我們請謝伊鳳委員發言。"},{"start":8849.054,"end":8850.403,"text":"謝謝主席,我想要請郭部長"},{"start":8861.155,"end":8883.928,"text":"副部長早委員好你故事擅長的是在科技在半導體產業那的確我們其他的傳產向機械公務會也在討論就是這一次的ECFA的早抽清單裡面其中就是在機械項目裡面大部分都被種植"},{"start":8885.109,"end":8899.434,"text":"關稅可能由0%變成8%到10%這樣的情況在今年度我們的出口又下降的情況下4月它是月減7%年減11.8%"},{"start":8902.935,"end":8902.955,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8921.083,"end":8936.431,"text":"這個對中國的市場來講的話因為他今年的景氣也很差所以他其實對這些工具機這些需求其實也是相對的減少一方面中國自己本土的廠商也都上來了"},{"start":8937.271,"end":8957.285,"text":"中國在做這個逆向工程是非常的厲害所以我們如果不是有很高深的這個這個這裡面的特殊的技術存在那有保護的話其實很快都會被copy那中國對逆向工程的使用我想大家都非常的清楚我們剛從這個Tesla"},{"start":8958.766,"end":8961.649,"text":"對我們來講臺灣來講我們應該讓我們國內的廠商去發展其他的這個市場那他可不可以切入半導體的"},{"start":8981.781,"end":8988.976,"text":"我們自己的機械工會可不可以切入我們台灣的半導體的這個設備的"},{"start":8991.803,"end":9021,"text":"一部分是不是你有辦法協助他們嗎我們當然這個臺灣如果說在這個半導體你現在就已經是臺灣的經濟部長啦是不是你不是半導體產業的那個你是要怎麼樣子協助我們的機械工會切入半導體產業啊是不是如果不要往外那是不是怎麼樣子切入我們臺灣的半導體的設備裡面啊這個部分怎麼做"},{"start":9021.873,"end":9038.172,"text":"這部分我想這個很重要就是他們的本身的這個自己學習的能力跟自我成長的能力啦這個做這個一般的這個機械工具機跟做半導體的設備精密設備差非常的多"},{"start":9039.192,"end":9062.851,"text":"這裡面要有非常多物理、光學、化學材料的這些工程師那台灣所做的這個機械大部分都只有機械工程師就可以做出來這裡面有非常大的差異所以我們台灣的這個機械要進入半導體的話只能做一些比較粗淺的就是二極體、電晶體這樣的一個領域不過從這個地方學習"},{"start":9068.296,"end":9077.028,"text":"實際上未來的電動車所用的半導體跟宇宙衛星所用的半導體是不一樣的。台灣可以從這些電動車的設備還是可以的"},{"start":9084.658,"end":9109.778,"text":"你認為是有機會發展?因為現在面臨的,你有辦法影響匯率嗎?經濟部長有辦法影響匯率嗎?恐怕沒辦法吧?是不是?那日幣也大幅的貶值,韓幣也是。那對於他們機械產業的外銷,那當然就是注意就相當的大嘛。那我們在沒有這樣子的情況下,怎麼樣子提升我們這些機械產業的"},{"start":9111.28,"end":9112.12,"text":"那你什麼時候可以定位出來?"},{"start":9134.963,"end":9137.264,"text":"那你認為就是如果我們往東南亞往印度市場那他們預計可以達到就是說"},{"start":9161.876,"end":9166.498,"text":"外商、美商、歐洲商會都提出了對於台灣電力韌性的疑慮,你怎麼解決?"},{"start":9191.335,"end":9211.218,"text":"電氣韌性的部分我們會優先來處理目前比較人多的地方或者用電需求比較大的地方或者是設備老舊的地方這個地方可能會比較容易產生因為老舊而造成一些事件那有沒有缺電的問題缺電不缺電缺電這個事件是不缺電的"},{"start":9211.678,"end":9215.86,"text":"未來如果就如同大家估計的預估如果沒有AI部分AI產業沒有爆炸性的發展就是沒有辦法達到爆炸性發展我們就預估是3%左右"},{"start":9231.445,"end":9237.051,"text":"3%左右,每年都要增加3%用電的情況下,我預計2025年是不是有用電的缺口?"},{"start":9249.315,"end":9258.711,"text":"我們現在增加的部分這個我想我必須要重新再確認一下就是2%到3%怎麼會這樣子你剛才說"},{"start":9263.103,"end":9263.363,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9283.922,"end":9311.761,"text":"更多也可能不只有這樣子所以我必須要再重新再確認過一一的確認過以後因為這個增加的部分就是數據中心的部分如果是普通的因為server使用而增加的部分確實是會落在我們預估的這個3%之內但是數據中心它的數據中心有大有小就我所訪問出來的數據中心一個數據中心它可能增加的那研發中心呢"},{"start":9312.361,"end":9318.147,"text":"AI的研發中心要不要用綠電?要用綠電他這個部門跟委員報告他用綠電神哥關心的說核電可不可用?不能用"},{"start":9335.959,"end":9336.44,"text":"在醫院的發展呢?"},{"start":9348.806,"end":9349.346,"text":"我們會遵守法律規定"},{"start":9374.141,"end":9402.7,"text":"那法規所以你們就是要按照法規的規定我想這個公務系統一切依法行事那如果有自然難行的地方我們就提修法好所以目前就是按照法律的規定按照法律規定那如果未來AI的機器人跟病人產生相關異議的時候怎麼樣處理還是依法律規定的進行沒有法律了現在就沒有法律了"},{"start":9404.039,"end":9404.579,"text":"李玉琳委員發言"},{"start":9434.456,"end":9461.806,"text":"謝謝主席 請郭部長謝謝部長部長您辛苦了第一次來到我們這邊做個詢答在那個早上你的感覺怎麼樣在企業在跟來到我們立法院的感覺呢"},{"start":9462.659,"end":9462.819,"text":"主席"},{"start":9477.819,"end":9483.562,"text":"在現在我們台灣的產業的整個策略上您提到說今年的經濟榮景是歸功於半導體的發展未來這50年除了繼續發揮著半導體的趨勢優勢之外現在的AI科技產業也會醞釀更大的潛力跟商機那而AI的晶片跟伺服器有9成就在台灣生產"},{"start":9499.531,"end":9514.548,"text":"：議員"},{"start":9514.548,"end":9539.531,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":9540.563,"end":9569.031,"text":"我們還是會全力充斥這個綠能的部分在綠能部分而且你剛剛也提到說你會先著手在光的部分也就是太陽能也就是太陽能那部長你知道太陽啊晚上就沒有太陽了這不穩定啊所以你這麼有信心說用光來補足這個再生能源而且再生能源在2030年你就要達到30%的這個中期的目標你有信心喔"},{"start":9570.012,"end":9580.574,"text":"我跟委員報告一下稍微稍微 容我稍微說明一下子剛才是說 我在說光是在創立電最快的方式"},{"start":9581.601,"end":9607.208,"text":"就是我們創這個電我們可能來自於火力、水力然後太陽能、風力所以本是要提醒你它不穩定對我們不像一些那個東南亞國家的那個太陽照射的那個光能可以儲存這麼多所有的這個光能或者是風能的話我們有儲能跟這個智慧電網可以來調度所以基本上它來滿足這個用電戶24小時用電這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":9610.209,"end":9617.173,"text":"雖然他創電的這個如你所說的不穩定但是透過我們的除電系統透過我們的這個智慧電網的調度"},{"start":9619.302,"end":9645.433,"text":"公電是可以穩定的所以你們一定要努力的達到2030年的目標30%那本席為什麼會這麼說就是因為我們在世界各國的科技公司像是蘋果啦Google或者是微軟他們2030年都有訂出來淨零碳排的這個問題未來要爭取國際的訂單是非常重要的就必須要淨零排放才能達到這目標那現在只剩下6年的時間"},{"start":9646.593,"end":9661.187,"text":"本席替你們有點緊張了所以你們要加緊腳步去達到這個目標不然的話你如果沒有達到這個目標的話所有的企業會被逼迫去尋找能夠穩定供電的國家"},{"start":9662.627,"end":9676.073,"text":"委員指教,我們也需要委員來支持臺電在風力跟太陽能這方面的創電,因為這裡面我們目前大概碰到一些小小的阻礙,也希望大家共同來支持臺電在這方面創電。"},{"start":9677.073,"end":9677.153,"text":"主席"},{"start":9702.662,"end":9702.742,"text":"副市長"},{"start":9720.771,"end":9742.365,"text":"謝謝委員的指教確實是有放進去但是事實上我們現在台電人力也不足維修的人力也不足所以你現在要趕快的把這計畫方要做新的計畫新的預算來做但是這整個配電這個管線更新的系統不是一蹴而成的所以需要時間"},{"start":9743.326,"end":9743.346,"text":"韓山廠"},{"start":9766.009,"end":9776.782,"text":"一號機七月份就要除役了二號機明年也要除役了所以你要說要河山廠要做備援的電力那怎麼樣去做備援"},{"start":9778.913,"end":9794.629,"text":"這個可能這個委員有一點誤會我所說的這個7月份不擔心這個電的問題是因為我們有其他的這個備載的這個機組都上來所以都上來都有到位嗎對會到位部長"},{"start":9796.391,"end":9807.997,"text":"在這今年的信達廠一號二號機除役還有民營的麥寮一號機二號機的合約也到期再加上合商廠的一號機七月就要除役了這會不會短少315萬瓦的這個電力這少了五個機組喔雖然說你說在新的機組裡面像是這個"},{"start":9816.841,"end":9840.299,"text":"封得3號機跟大潭的7號9號機跟這個新達新的這一號機會補足443萬瓦的電好像新的電有多於大於這個這個機組這個減少的電但是部長這些電的商轉都要測試都要點火萬一不順利失敗的話你這個缺電的這個缺口"},{"start":9841.617,"end":9861.357,"text":"這缺口你怎麼樣去補助 這空窗期是怎麼辦呢我們不會讓它產生空窗期啦 因為我們測試最近在走他測試 還沒有測試啊因為在你111年的全國電力資源供需的報告裡面這些我剛剛講的這些新的機組 6月就要投入使用"},{"start":9862.017,"end":9862.237,"text":"請問測試完成順利?"},{"start":9876.425,"end":9876.485,"text":"主席"},{"start":9895.049,"end":9895.209,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9924.889,"end":9924.969,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":9944.62,"end":9944.76,"text":"人力培養"},{"start":9959.824,"end":9959.964,"text":"主席"},{"start":9985.592,"end":9986.653,"text":"主席,現在有請我們郭部長來,請郭部長"},{"start":10022.881,"end":10051.472,"text":"郭部長委員好你從企業界出身非常注重那個公司治理那你來了我相信你從從業集團不大的公司在手裡一直茁壯長大表示公司的治理非常好那我很少對國營事業提示一些執行那今天我要跟部長報告我們的台廠裡面"},{"start":10053.46,"end":10058.705,"text":"關於我們的西木養殖場到現在一直都還沒有完成"},{"start":10059.676,"end":10085.518,"text":"而且接受到查現在還有未報端你不要緊張部長好好切實了解一下我們這個公司在競爭要公平不要被人為的因素所影響民間的公司他有資訊有能力大家去調整這第一點請台黨委屈有必要來問我我會跟你講我們要如何合理公平的答應"},{"start":10087.452,"end":10105.703,"text":"第一位,大家談到飛塔、營運化中心,高雄要哪裡也要。我不知道郭部長,你做企業期間要去廟宁走過嗎?還是走到新竹科學院就沒有過了我們廟宁?有啦,我廟宁也是很重要的客人。我知道。"},{"start":10107.321,"end":10119.067,"text":"我美國我命令好山好水,我水庫有五座,現在準備蓋一座,我還有通宵綠化電廠,所以不缺水不缺電。"},{"start":10120.543,"end":10145.84,"text":"第二,好山好水,緣泉非常沉穩,勞動力非常直掛,尤其他在新職科學園區一變。不能只往立的執政或是大都市走,我問苗栗市中心點,他北聯的新職科學園區,南列的台中科學園區只缺了這一段,你把輝達"},{"start":10147.321,"end":10148.042,"text":"委員我幫你報告"},{"start":10160.572,"end":10165.874,"text":"我早就台積電叫我在竹蘭設一個半導體產業鏈聯席就是大溪谷計畫考慮在那個地方不要偏袒"},{"start":10182.802,"end":10183.082,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10204.995,"end":10222.91,"text":"什麼立法院執行刑事馬上讓外資賣掉,哎喲,國際的勝利,差來也吵來吵去,不要被這個影響,有起有伏,不能說賣掉就好,好不好?以前好,但是我待會再給它額落一點點,這一點沒什麼好啦。再來啊,部長,我看你這個經濟部長的這四年多,你真的很好。"},{"start":10233.553,"end":10257.089,"text":"尤其現在AI的那個產業裏面世界所有的九大巨頭都全部在臺灣的U條碼卡跟我們選舉一樣把他拉過來 拉過來算我的靠山所以請問但是這一點你要注意這個問題你會不會問這個部長水電勞工你一定要好好準備那水的話"},{"start":10262.694,"end":10280.473,"text":"水利市最近天下了很多雨你可以坐下來可以坐在那邊很少人吃電我們的曾次長曾董事長要加油現在大家都講你見不過但是我跟臺電那麼久我也全力的在支持臺電通銷各種建設"},{"start":10282.753,"end":10305.635,"text":"通宵、電廠、離岸婚禮第一座都是我在跟你們主持成功的。施亂就好了,你們要努力,不要給部長擔憂。我相信窮則變,變則通,你把電鍋給我好,自己的勞工很欠缺,我跟你們講。所以這一點你就溫溫啦,但是我教你一個,你不要亂講話。"},{"start":10308.551,"end":10326.386,"text":"反核,核電你不要講,說我覺得有必要,反核是執政黨的神指牌,是執政黨的赫黨神山啦!我會說你們亂講話,不然你講話馬上不保,我和朋友我才跟你講啦!"},{"start":10327.742,"end":10351.435,"text":"我告訴你你不要只有帶著微笑這個深刻體驗我們不要去把人家孫子爬台上不然官位不老黨運不容好不好謝謝 謝謝委員再來一點你講到AI的產業你有講到一個重點現在所有AI的產業都在講伺服器"},{"start":10353.646,"end":10376.853,"text":"好幾家都會做但是部長你要有一個能力喔我們不是廉價的勞工啊優秀廉價勞工那會不會紅海市長啥來上去都沒有利潤跟我們的電腦一樣你不要感到只有3%的利潤這個可以預取得到你看一些大咖來抓莊角他也是要來砍下閣啦"},{"start":10378.82,"end":10406.123,"text":"因為只有臺積電能做出來我們才有這樣我希望你有深深的體會到我們不能讓臺灣的廠商自相的殘差另外我特別提到AI是它的運算桌邊的能力創新能力最重要這一點要加強把臺灣在AI應用邊緣應用的那個能力一定要加強我今天早上看了一個說"},{"start":10407.85,"end":10432.654,"text":"你在五年內要領IC設計廠起身前排,這個好,軟禮賺錢,硬體是載來載去,載到最後我們台灣很可憐,非常漂亮,但是沒有真的賺到錢,這點我相信你有深深的感受,因為你賣財經營的營業比較不會感受到,我講了沒得力了,你跟我回答一下。"},{"start":10433.988,"end":10448.922,"text":"我想這個臺灣來講的話未來我們要全力發展的就是AI的這個應用人才因為這個如同這個委員所指導的這個硬體是賺不了什麼錢這個AI社會比較有實力的大家都發動做"},{"start":10452.961,"end":10454.182,"text":"這世界大公司來"},{"start":10471.789,"end":10487.123,"text":"我以前高通在這邊設研發中心,他有一個7億美金的本來要來做我們賠償,結果做投資提前用,他這7億拿去省市壓管去叫台積電的人,台積電的人去叫研發課的人,研發課的人去叫學科的人"},{"start":10490.986,"end":10515.058,"text":"臺灣今年就是這麼人在地啊李慧榮來遭遇到這樣我一直在強調這一點但是我們的形勢一直安若無鐵管美國可以印鈔票我們臺灣不能印鈔票因為他管的形勢你老拜帶動臺灣所以你保管老公這個是環環相扣的啊對臺灣是很有幫忙的啊是不是你要注意這個問題啊"},{"start":10516.599,"end":10516.759,"text":"主席"},{"start":10541.363,"end":10542.303,"text":"我們的那個那個什麼三話那個什麼剛剛通過了"},{"start":10570.612,"end":10571.497,"text":"必須要再深化"},{"start":10572.526,"end":10598.926,"text":"要好好治癒啊這大健康產業啊我跟我們的部長報告可能有一個護國損傷會出現但是我覺得你們在生技產業裡面經濟部的編制太小太小既然大產業也是你們在負責不是衛福部他只有負責整體試驗在那個生技產業的試驗之中"},{"start":10601.247,"end":10628.746,"text":"麻煩,這個要加強。但是最後一個問題,我們那麼好結果多講幾分鐘,你站起來再一兩分鐘。那裡面有談到,我剛剛你五大產業,半導體產業,人工智慧產業看起來可以了。那安控產業就是跟資安軟體有關係。那通信產業5G、6G,包括你低軌衛星,這個都在發展,世界都在拼。"},{"start":10630.55,"end":10652.904,"text":"現在有一個軍工產業阿你怎麼不來報告我剛剛到立法院看了很多阿那個做買賣武器阿做飛機在這邊繞來繞去阿這有什麼關係我也看你的那個業務報告你說你指導的只有三個軍工產業不在那邊我只講一句話"},{"start":10654.264,"end":10664.51,"text":"不要把台灣當作武器庫我們可以做代工做加工我們要監視其間因為你講的一句話很重要今天有一篇報導"},{"start":10666.158,"end":10685.909,"text":"你部長可能就要接受地緣政治的考驗剛剛講說大陸的表演,改天我給你討論ECFAECFA其實很嚴重,你們講的輕盲亂寫尤其那幾個機械我碰到很多成衣的布料進去本來是台商在那都買台灣的布料,現在他們不敢買,8%的關稅"},{"start":10688.928,"end":10705.634,"text":"我相信十月屆的人出來要面對問題解決問題不要說人家好聽現在是你好果硬的除了我們的AI電腦展這樣舒適很大百花燦爛台灣最有前途其實要求法把要求法閹掉"},{"start":10706.714,"end":10721.1,"text":"蓋掉了,但是要好好研究,中小企業是本人,隱形企業的冠軍很多在那邊,不要充滿造型,把它忽視掉好不好,改天再跟你討論中小企業就會很危險,你說的一關齁,什麼企業館叫什麼禮物客來,"},{"start":10725.942,"end":10726.202,"text":"來 請郭部長"},{"start":10755.912,"end":10771.327,"text":"主席先趁這個時間宣告一下我們中午就不休息延長開會時間到登記發言的委員都質詢完畢為止我們再休息那就請各位同仁如果有需要上洗手間的就請自己自行處理"},{"start":10773.367,"end":10797.666,"text":"好 謝謝部長辛苦了首先要肯定部長願意從產業界來到政府部門來出任部長來為台灣一起打拼那我先秀第一張圖這個AI的時代來臨部長也說過那台灣跟AI其實是共勝共榮的關係那也確實台灣也搭上了AI這個時代的一個腳步部長怎麼看AI跟台灣未來的關係"},{"start":10798.936,"end":10823.701,"text":"AI跟臺灣的關係我想就是這個AI跟世界這個連結的開始那個昨天這個Intel的老闆就講這個IT等於Intel加上臺灣所以大家可以瞭解啦過去我們在講IC是講這個India跟這個China不過現在AI的時代"},{"start":10824.923,"end":10853.808,"text":"確實是這個AI server跟從AI chip做到AI server到AI的application我想這個臺灣是最有條件所以臺灣未來也會跟著AI一起來更躍上世界的一個腳步世界會連結到臺灣來我看了一下部長的口頭報告你裡面八頁裡面你光AI就談到了30次大概也是有史以來我看到AI最多的一個次數那也看出部長對AI這塊也有深大的一些期許跟期待"},{"start":10856.77,"end":10868.442,"text":"包括部長也提到了未來IC設計業能夠5年內拚到全球前2部長怎麼來做?我們現在的IC設計業事實上已經是全球第2美國第一佔68台灣第二佔18中國第三佔16"},{"start":10874.407,"end":10896.33,"text":"我的意思就是說我們必須要保持在第二的位置穩定這個位置我們希望能夠佔全球大概超過20%這個是我自我期許的目標那因為中國他在發展也非常的快中國過去在軟體的這個時代在Cloudy他們做的其實他是世界第二的"},{"start":10897.253,"end":10923.886,"text":"那到AI這個時代大家都歸零重新開始在發展的時候我認為台灣因為AI的chip只有台灣能做AI的server台灣做了九成所以這個AI application應該從台灣開始散開所以台灣如果說能夠讓百工百業都有很多在這個運用的工程師的話那麼從台灣散出去我想這個就是台灣未來可以影響全球的部分"},{"start":10924.226,"end":10939.667,"text":"部長你早上也有提到就是說整個包括接下來幾個研發中心的部分在不管是輝達甚至AMD的部分其他的未來有機會在台灣有更多的一些投資的部分那裡面有提到高雄亞灣那高雄亞灣其實"},{"start":10941.489,"end":10968.409,"text":"過去來這個地方其實是加工出口區50年前創造台灣奇蹟的地方但是這一段時間以來不管亞洲新灣區甚至在8年前以後開始在推動也是進一步主導推動5G IoT投入106億到後來亞灣2.0這個智慧科技創新園區投入170億其實都是在做這些的佈局所以現在的佈局慢慢也看到更多的成果也就是說做好的準備之後也迎接了"},{"start":10973.534,"end":10980.56,"text":"部長,回答投資在高雄這件事情,特別是在亞灣這件事情應該大致上已經有一個眉目出來了,是吧?"},{"start":10981.776,"end":11000.691,"text":"以我所了解的我還是一樣感覺我沒有人告訴我他會到高雄也沒有人指示我說他會到高雄不過我個人的感覺這個經濟委員會有四位委員是來自於高雄就可以想到這個影響力應該是非常的大"},{"start":11001.391,"end":11022.673,"text":"恐怕也不是經濟委員會的影響力啦我認為從企業界的嗅覺跟整個高雄的這個布局的狀況我認為高雄其實已經做好了相關的一些準備整個整體上的一些布局包括電的部分來講就好啦其實但未來的這些不管半導體或是AI都需要大量的電力高雄的電有40%往中往北送"},{"start":11023.334,"end":11038.382,"text":"而高雄即使做這麼多充足的電力的時候高雄還繼續在興達電廠在大陵電廠持續在增加燃氣的電廠高雄就完全的充分的做這些準備包括人才的部分也做了相關的一些準備不管是中山大學、清大"},{"start":11038.982,"end":11041.063,"text":"是的,我非常同意委員所說的,花若盛開,蝴蝶自來所以沒有這麼好的準備"},{"start":11065.598,"end":11091.543,"text":"這些數據中心一定會去那也期待部長就你能夠協助的範圍讓整個臺灣能夠區域均衡發展就當然我們知道在臺北已經有一個了那在高雄未來這個如果輝達能夠在高雄設計設置第二座的這個研發中心的時候他會形成更強的一個區域上的效果部長你看一下這個亞灣明天你也會到亞灣去他其實就是一個非常棒的一個港灣城市"},{"start":11092.383,"end":11094.445,"text":"曾經邁市長邀請你來說 給你三個博位 給那個回答三個博位就講這樣"},{"start":11111.664,"end":11130.335,"text":"所以我認為他是一個充分的具備把人才吸引來的一個充分優勢的一個地方我也希望部長跟整個包括司長處長能夠大力來促成啦謝謝委員我想那個三個博位給這個這個MVDR不是給我啦對對對"},{"start":11132.109,"end":11150.669,"text":"我們再講一下啦齁 這各位看一下 包括日月光 包括台積電 仁寶 偉創 鴻海 森忍 甚至這個微軟的這個鴻海大樓啦齁 等等的齁 這個超級電腦 Type 1 的部分 包括甚至生態園區等等 全部都已經群聚過到高雄來了齁 所以我認為這個"},{"start":11151.63,"end":11170.828,"text":"：議員"},{"start":11170.948,"end":11191.548,"text":"持續來支持 不只是這個輝達甚至AMD等等甚至其他的有機會多鼓勵他們到一個用電充足地方政府友善同時間水也具備了同時間土地也具備了一個地點同時有空港海港的一些優勢的時候讓南部的優秀人才能夠在南部有好的發展好不好"},{"start":11192.148,"end":11219.874,"text":"是的 謝謝委員謝謝部長接下來我要再講的是除了這個它的旁邊而已啦其實有一個前鎮的原來的加工出口區這是前鎮的園區啦那經過過去沈榮金部長包括毛部長的大力支持我們做了一個前瞻的這個計畫241來改造把一些舊的大樓改造跟部長提到以前我第一次當立委的時候還有那個建築長一棵榕樹長在上面的"},{"start":11220.314,"end":11239.886,"text":"後來我們找了經費之後把它給拆掉現在蓋成嶄新的科技的大樓現在新的產業都進駐我認為這個都是未來高雄發展亞灣發展一個重要的願景我也希望部長繼續支持在前瞻園區的這個風華再現的計畫繼續投入更多的一些建設讓老舊的大樓更新同時間"},{"start":11240.666,"end":11241.006,"text":"請部長也持續來重視"},{"start":11258.058,"end":11276.963,"text":"在我看部長的報告裡面其實你提到了幾個重點不管是半導體AI甚至於投資全球的佈局供電的部分我剛才也提到了我想供電的部分持續來推動相關的不管是燃氣電廠我們來支持以外我想綠電也是一個非常重要產業而且是全世界不管是我們在這個"},{"start":11279.203,"end":11294.56,"text":"剪碳的部分我們的一些長遠的目標這也是國際的各企業所重視的那我們看到其實這個不管是光電離岸風電甚至於整個一些地熱等等的部長未來會持續來大力推動整個綠電吧"},{"start":11296.095,"end":11310.283,"text":"未來我們是全力推動綠電我認為綠電其實是更具有國人的高度共識核電其實遇到核廢料的問題遇到安全的問題還有人民的溝通的問題其實那都需要相當的時間還有法令的問題"},{"start":11311.323,"end":11330.67,"text":"我覺得那個都需要相當時間,恐怕也緩不及急,但是綠電是可以加快它的速度的,讓我們過去用這個短購費率的方式去支持,我也希望未來部長這一塊來大力支持,讓我們的電力更加多元化,同時綠電也是國際的趨勢,同時台灣在離岸風電在太陽光電都有非常好的優勢"},{"start":11331.59,"end":11332.271,"text":"謝謝賴瑞榮委員 謝謝郭部長接下來我們請邱志維委員發言"},{"start":11368.291,"end":11397.243,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請經濟部的郭部長來,請郭部長部長昨天我夜觀天象整個AI整個風是往南方吹整個AI的雲系都集中在高雄上空"},{"start":11399.725,"end":11423.317,"text":"這個我也深暗天理你要觀天象也要知道天理天理變幻無常不要拘泥於特定地方條件好的地方優先考量當然那個人說是雅灣不見得是雅灣只要在高雄就好我的工具比較大夜觀天象跟我深暗天理"},{"start":11424.687,"end":11451.963,"text":"我們千里要遵從天象他給我們一個指引所以這個最近這個陽明交大在高雄設立分校這個聯談會館那個基地我沒有說要設在橋頭只要是在高雄對整個AI生態系能夠培養不限制揮打其他的AI相關的這個國際的重要廠商"},{"start":11455.815,"end":11458.236,"text":"這部長你同意嗎?"},{"start":11483.73,"end":11504.394,"text":"我想是這樣子就是說所有的地方就是那個條件應該是他們業者所選擇的那您剛才在講說在南部嘛我想這個風向吹到那裡大概他們也會走到那裡南部的高雄高雄那因為高雄非常的大高雄非常的大就是在中心嘛就是說聯談會館那個地方"},{"start":11508.247,"end":11510.669,"text":"會不會有缺電問題?我請董事長,董事長最了解,會不會有缺電問題?"},{"start":11538.277,"end":11556.47,"text":"高雄有3個店長4個店長所以沒有缺點問題水公司會不會缺水的問題各位報告水公司我們會全力以赴全力以赴就代表沒有問題萬事皆被只欠東風東風又由部長這邊吹出來"},{"start":11560.99,"end":11575.694,"text":"我向這個委員報告,就是選擇高雄或者是選擇南部,我想對這個業者來講,他們有充分的這個核算。這個您剛才講的,您舉的那幾個條件,應該都是他們考量的這個範疇。"},{"start":11580.956,"end":11588.862,"text":"所以我剛才有舉這個花若盛開,蝴蝶自來,如果你的條件剛好,他們就會進來。來,那個水利署,署長。這個水利署的專業我想,這個我星期一剛一考察,這個113年應急啊,你把我駁回很多啊。"},{"start":11607.3,"end":11626.007,"text":"這部分我希望說這個我都親自去看過一原水地區你要加強補助啊你只核定我4000萬那我昨天去看比修排水第一至一期第二期缺口也是大概1.4億這個部分這個有關於生命財產安全啊那橋頭科技園區關係到產業的發展組長這個1.4億橋科的排水比修排水這個優先來補助可以嗎"},{"start":11634.09,"end":11659.401,"text":"阿對 如委員所說的筆秀排水臨近於橋頭園區阿那我們第三期的部分已經優先在做我知道我知道那你禮拜一去看那個二期的部分我們在前瞻的五期的部分阿這個會在優先依照評比的次序來做考量另外協定湖內鹿竹岡山這一淹水地區我每一案子有親自去看過阿你們沒有支持那我希望說今年能夠納入應急工程"},{"start":11660.68,"end":11661.1,"text":"經濟部副次長"},{"start":11691.142,"end":11712.347,"text":"新創!新創你們在這個國際創業聚落,你們在林口設立新創區,然後在這個高雄要設立亞灣新創區,上一回我諮詢這個王部長的時候,你們也答應在北高雄也籌備一個北高雄新創區,目前進度為何?"},{"start":11713.287,"end":11721.791,"text":"跟委員報告北高雄我們當然了解就是南科要在橋頭設遠區這塊會跟南科管理局那邊做了解那台電"},{"start":11731.856,"end":11738.569,"text":"新達電廠的這些相關的運轉一延再延 特別是燃氣機組燃氣的正式商轉的時間會不會再往後延"},{"start":11744.586,"end":11767.835,"text":"我們目前就是規劃他12月就他應該是在第三季就會點火第四季就會完成可以接受調控所以一延再延本來是今年2月延到今年12月他就這一個部分是因為我想委員都有清楚因為你長期都在關心嘛因為那個地方我們在鹽灘地上面興建其實地址的部分花了比較多時間那中間也遇到了疫情不過"},{"start":11768.815,"end":11788.823,"text":"我們現在的工程進度就扣面了幾步就會稍微就可以加速往前你們要盡量不要拖太久趕快銜接上來那第三號四號的這個藍莓機組你明年除役之後他會轉備用還是就徹底除役跟委員報告就是我們在環評的承諾上面"},{"start":11789.909,"end":11812.947,"text":"明確的寫到就是到今年之後就明年開始他會變成備用機組就是在8%備轉8%以下才會啟動所以他是算是這個火火山的概念應該是說他他就是一個熱機備援的概念那我了解那另外再請部長"},{"start":11814.304,"end":11836.094,"text":"部長你這個境外關內境外關內是過去部長沒有提到的境外關內境外就是非國內嘛一定在國外那有哪些這個國家重點地區已經有成型了或者裡面有目標的區域或目標國家你要在這些國家或這些區域"},{"start":11836.654,"end":11837.555,"text":"九州美國德州歐洲捷克"},{"start":11857.372,"end":11872.428,"text":"所以你在這些捷克美國跟九州這三個是你們未來所要推動的三個境外關內的這個概念嘛對不對關內就是說他的所有的稅是比照於國內待遇喔是不是這樣子"},{"start":11873.129,"end":11901.621,"text":"基本上我們讓他在外面主要幫助他就是他在國外發展的過程裡面我們幫他在當地國可以談到一些這個稅賦的這個減免那他能夠接受因為他在當地國的生產銷售可以連結回來臺灣的這個業績那麼當然是完全關內的待遇對是關內的概念就是他的待遇條件就等於你在國內投資一樣嗎對說你的設廠基地是在九州"},{"start":11902.961,"end":11924.369,"text":"是雄本嗎?還是九州哪裡?不在雄本在九州的摩線然後捷克會在哪裡?在布拉格美國會在哪裡?德州這個是暫定的地方這是成型之後大概會什麼時候?"},{"start":11926.12,"end":11954.537,"text":"陳型應該是我講我們會在這幾個月裡面把它完全這個定型化另外最後一題這sharp line這個是投審師或者是這個市長我問一下這個這個恐怕部長你不是那麼瞭解我直接問一下市長這sharp line的中資的相關的大家的疑問目前有沒有違反我們外資管理規定"},{"start":11956.126,"end":11978.675,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個案子它的上層結構的部分我們還在了解還在行政調查當中還在行政調查所以還有潛在的風險你們要注意喔隱私外資的風險這些你們可能要注意好謝謝委員提醒我們知道所有的外資都要中資都要透過嚴格的這個這個的檢視或是審查所以還在什麼時候會出來呢"},{"start":11980.79,"end":12005.751,"text":"我們盡量努力好 謝謝我很遵守時間我知道我正要稱讚您而已來 部長請回座休息 謝謝邱志偉委員接下來我們請洪森翰委員發言部長也請阿伯請你起立"},{"start":12008.029,"end":12008.87,"text":"主席謝謝請國務部長我不是故意的"},{"start":12026.355,"end":12040.432,"text":"部長好,部長今天是你應該是第一次到經濟委員會來備詢那我剛剛看了一下其實前面有很多不分朝野的委員其實都非常聚焦在電力跟能源的問題"},{"start":12041.994,"end":12066.485,"text":"那我剛才看了我聽了一下大家基本上都是從供給面的方向來給經濟部各種的建議那我覺得這些建議我猜接下來經濟部也都會參考那接下來我要跟部長討論的事情是我們其實在整體的電力供需裡面除了供應一端以外另外也很多人在討論甚至國際上面都在討論的是需求面的解方下一張"},{"start":12068.435,"end":12094.141,"text":"這是前幾天其實在5月底的時候這個IAEA國際能源總署他們第9次的這個年度的全球會議上面其實很清楚其實就講到接下來能不能夠實現升溫1.5度C包括氣候目標甚至電力供應的關鍵點是在於這10年內能源效率能不能夠翻倍這樣子的目標"},{"start":12095.021,"end":12111.86,"text":"事實上能源效率的提升翻倍其實也是去年其實聯合國的氣候變遷大會裡面最重要的結論之一那我們花了很多時間討論核電等等的問題可是大家更大的共識其實是關於能源效率的共識再往下"},{"start":12115.058,"end":12138.628,"text":"事實上其實在這個去年的選舉裡面我們看到賴英德總統其實在他競選的政見裡面也很清楚提到深度節能其實這是一個很完整的相關的深度節能的計畫我想問一下部長部長你對於去年賴總統深度節能的政見現在你開始掌舵經濟部你打算怎麼往下做"},{"start":12139.704,"end":12159.05,"text":"這個exco的部分是我們要強化的部分比過去上一次做exco的部分我們再強化在未來的一直到117年為止我想我們會放大過去的預算然後要求"},{"start":12159.85,"end":12161.091,"text":"我認為我們節能服務產業還是很需要政府的協助的"},{"start":12188.166,"end":12212.437,"text":"尤其是現在我們談到各種智慧化甚至是AI上面的重要的應用跟輔助其實恐怕在ESCO裡面也有很大其實可以應用的空間但這部分因為我們過去ESCO的規模其實坦白說是比較小的大型的沒那麼多那他們很需要政府來協助輔導包括一些技術上面的引進可是我們一直以來其實在節能或者是深度節能最重要的問題"},{"start":12213.698,"end":12242.186,"text":"除了我們要把Xcode生態鏈給建立起來後下一張我們更大的一個點是其實過去在行政部門我們在節能的計畫上面我覺得在計畫的規劃上面是存在著一些問題的我們過去有很多我們政府不是沒有花錢我們花錢做了很多節能設備器具的補助可是通常我們的KPI都是以說補助的件數為KPI結果很多的廠商把這些補助"},{"start":12242.526,"end":12242.826,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12267.42,"end":12292.371,"text":"實質的節電量,節電的績效作為KPI,部長你同不同意?完全同意,我來了以後也發現這個問題。部長我甚至都覺得我們應該,其實政府不是不能在節能上面花錢啊,可是我更覺得我們是不是能夠讓產業界更知道,你節的越多,你可以得到政府的幫助越多,你可以拿到的補助越多,你可以受到的支持越多,但重點是你要節的多,這概念部長也是同意的吧?"},{"start":12292.731,"end":12319.22,"text":"完全同意部長那往下我們當然如果這個同意的話那往下就好多件事情必須想因為節能的績效要怎麼計算這當然是一個技術的問題所以這裡面牽扯到部長來自產業一定很清楚我們的EMIS我們的節能我們的能源的資訊管理的這個呈現的系統其實是能不能夠把節能的績效清楚而科學的計算出來的關鍵所以接下來在這部分我們推進的計畫是什麼部長"},{"start":12321.901,"end":12345.859,"text":"現在你執掌經濟部兩個禮拜的時間兩三個禮拜的時間現在的規劃是什麼節能的部分我們就是如剛才我想委員所指教的這個部分在進行對我自己是希望說部長我對部長期待很深我們是不是能夠在深入節能的上面能夠推出一個從經濟部甚至結合其他部會的一個旗艦型的計畫可以"},{"start":12346.88,"end":12368.191,"text":"在這個旗艦型的計畫上面包括經費包括我們新的在要求上面的規範包括剛剛說KPI上面的改變甚至有包括剛剛說節能產業的生態系的帶動重點但重點是規範部長你知道我們在節能最重要的法規是哪一個"},{"start":12369.813,"end":12370.654,"text":"這我問了很多次了"},{"start":12399.333,"end":12415.159,"text":"現在部內還沒有討論定案不過我想我會加速來整合如果我們剛才照部長說其實接下來經濟部會提出一個深度節能的旗艦型的計畫的話大家一定會問那我們法規上面要怎麼去強化"},{"start":12416.049,"end":12416.209,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":12435.976,"end":12458.362,"text":"兩月以內希望得到委員的協助,能夠讓我們內部整合更快速部長沒有問題,但我們長期跟很多,包括EXCO產業在合作是他們相關的會議,我也很樂意來扮演跟部長之間的橋樑甚至大家可以來做一個座談,讓這些相關的工作可以更順利,得到產業更大的支持這部長,如果我們來辦一個座談"},{"start":12459.022,"end":12459.263,"text":"牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":12487.398,"end":12503.312,"text":"謝謝主席,郭部長有請來請郭部長好,部長午安"},{"start":12505.473,"end":12530.554,"text":"這個2050淨零排放跟轉型基本上是蔡總統這個2022年就推出的能源轉型政策那麼2024年賴清德總統就任之後卓院長也把2050的淨零排放跟轉型納入施政方針之中部長您是來自於民間的部長您在擔任崇越集團董事長的時候有沒有說過化石燃料將逐漸從我們習以為常的生活中淡出靈探趨勢則將迎面而來你有沒有講過這樣的話"},{"start":12534.738,"end":12535.88,"text":"不太記得,我講過很多話"},{"start":12539.875,"end":12566.157,"text":"有啦,這是你幫人家寫書,這個天下雜誌的書推裡面寫的齁當然嘛,你在崇越集團治理的時候,其實你是身體力行地去實踐檢探這件事,這個你總有印象吧?嗯,是是嘛對不對?那你甚至有講過,這個不要等到明天喔,檢探這件事從今天就開始行動本期要特別講這件事是提醒,就是說這個事情即便你今天,現在身為經濟部長這樣子的一個概念,我們希望你把從企業界的概念跟經驗,帶到這個公部門"},{"start":12568.598,"end":12595.458,"text":"來帶領國家社會來共同推動這樣子的一個事情現在部長知不知道我們減碳最大的挑戰是什麼你覺得我們政府這幾年減碳左右成果嗎還是遇到了很大的障礙跟瓶頸我現在對於委員這個問題不是非常的了解我會快速的來了解這些問題其實這兩張圖表希望部長可以好好了解一下也就是說這個"},{"start":12597.851,"end":12627.214,"text":"圖表裡面其實你可以看到國家溫室氣體的排放清澈其實你可以發現其實下降的有限1990到2021年的二氧化碳的排放趨勢沒有顯著的在增加不像說90年代增加的非常快速但相對來講在全世界開始要求要下降的時候我們並沒有做到碳排下降這件事情甚至還是微幅的增加部長遇到這樣的大的挑戰我們的做法是什麼"},{"start":12629.824,"end":12647.769,"text":"我想這個目標我們是非常清楚就是能夠節能減碳那因為這個如果排放的部分沒有減少這個節能減碳還是要非常的努力所以我們大概可以考慮是兩個方向一個就是讓排碳減少一個就是加強這個節能減碳"},{"start":12649.649,"end":12667.01,"text":"今天很簡單對不對所以你可以看到能源部門在這裡面其實扮演非常重要的一個角色所以今天其實有非常多的委員跟你討論國家的能源政策這一件事情那本席今天也是要討論這樣的事情但是我想喔大的方向我們就不用多談了談一下本席選區的事情"},{"start":12668.34,"end":12682.718,"text":"這個在民進黨政府領導的國家的能源轉型的政策的領導之下桃園其實是最大的受害者為什麼桃園是最大的受害者呢現在我覺得蠻遺憾的部長在業界的時候其實對核能的心態是相對開放的"},{"start":12683.078,"end":12703.464,"text":"但是近來擔任部長之後好像多了很多的拘束多了很多的包袱本席是認為非常可惜我是希望看到業界這樣子靈活的思維來改變公部門的邏輯這個希望部長可以好好努力為什麼我這樣說呢因為本席的選區桃園第一選區是火力發電的最大的受災戶"},{"start":12705.384,"end":12730.721,"text":"在大桃園周邊有十幾個火力發電的機組團團包圍當然桃園是產業重鎮桃園要用電這我們很清楚但是桃園的發電幾乎全部都是火力發電而且不只是有發電這其中很多的發電廠還都有擴大的計畫一個盧竹的海湖長生一個龜山的國光火力兩個電廠都在本席的選區偷偷摸摸的在進行擴建本席認為期期以為不可"},{"start":12731.261,"end":12746.856,"text":"為什麼不可能?倒也不是講說一定是要用核能嘛而是關鍵是我們剛剛講到這張圖表大家都希望二氧化碳的碳排能夠往下降而能源部門火力發電又剛剛好是這個二氧化碳碳排的大宗"},{"start":12747.617,"end":12769.137,"text":"如果我們的部長我們的經濟部希望未來走向淨零轉型但是卻放任火力電廠在各地繼續擴建不只是對區域的不公平跟不正義不只是有空污的危害其實對於國家總體淨零轉型其實它也是很大的一個障礙部長這樣子的狀況這樣子的矛盾經濟部現在有沒有什麼解決的方式"},{"start":12770.818,"end":12787.687,"text":"報告委員,我們對於這一步的話,原來的規劃就是以綠能權力來發展,那麼綠能才是符合建立這個目標的,那這個目前所規劃的這一部分是在"},{"start":12788.487,"end":12791.389,"text":"臺電會根據這個用電的這個預估啊然後去推估這個6年以後這個或者10年以後大概我們用電多少來"},{"start":12818.928,"end":12819.709,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12838.352,"end":12859.967,"text":"這個國家的重要的發展方針火力電廠的擴建大可不必本席竟表反對第二個是本席的選區不只有火力電廠還有桃園煉油廠您剛剛有講說石化燃料要慢慢慢慢的退場這個本席的選區這個煉油廠周邊的鄰里過去都有跟經濟部長座談交流的這個經驗大家都很關心以前大家講要牽廠要牽廠但我們知道你講要牽廠知識體大國家發展也困難"},{"start":12863.67,"end":12888.308,"text":"現在大家觀念願意改變希望用轉型的方式來取代遷廠這個轉型的計畫我們跟前任經濟部長已經做過政策對話我也希望新任的經濟部把煉油廠的轉型啊當成一個重要的發展方針符合減碳的趨勢場區利用的活化並且充分尊重地方的意見部長願不願意撥出一點點時間跟地方跟桃園市政府來做一些政策的溝通跟討論"},{"start":12889.686,"end":12912.451,"text":"我個人非常願意個人非常願意好不好那我們就後面來安排時間希望有更多的時間可以做深入的探討可以嗎是謝謝委員好期待這個經濟部在部長的領導之下可以走出一條新的道路謝謝加油謝謝委員謝謝牛許廷委員來部長請回座休息接下來請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":12919.15,"end":12920.737,"text":"謝謝主席,我請郭部長"},{"start":12930.775,"end":12954.634,"text":"部長好 剛才在回答前面委員的答覆的時候你有特別提到為了要迎接AI的這個大爆發所以如果電不夠的時候你是支持來蓋新的電廠那麼蓋新的電廠我想應該是包括核電廠吧因為以現有的政策還是說核電廠也會列入考量之一"},{"start":12956.636,"end":12972.727,"text":"長遠來說如果核電廠符合我們蓋電廠蓋核電廠的條件我認為這是不排除的一個選項所以你在講蓋新電廠裡面其實在你的腦子裡面沒有完全排除核電廠我個人是沒有"},{"start":12973.197,"end":12973.237,"text":"主席"},{"start":12996.727,"end":12997.107,"text":"目前臺灣的電是夠的"},{"start":13014.059,"end":13031.031,"text":"我們只是在擔心未來AI大爆發的時候它會突然間增加很多的電因為你剛剛講一個新電廠起碼要6年對不對所以你現在就要規劃嘛對不對你不能等到AI大爆發然後我們電不夠我們再來想電廠"},{"start":13032.992,"end":13054.638,"text":"我們現在正是在因應這兩三天的大的變化我們已經開始在調整自己的腳步了所以我們現在在做很多的simulation就是當這個臺灣的數據中心會增加多少當有一天臺灣導入超級電腦的時候我們需要非常大的電力的時候我們目前所規劃的電廠"},{"start":13056.878,"end":13065.589,"text":"到底是不是能夠因應這些需求報告委員我後來我講了說我們最快能夠滿足到2028年的這個規劃所以我們只能用太陽光能"},{"start":13074.571,"end":13076.012,"text":"所以你現在不是蓋新電廠,因為光電是遍地開花啊,對不對?"},{"start":13091.991,"end":13095.856,"text":"我時間有限因為你今天投出來應該算是一個很大的變化願意蓋新的電廠然後在新的電廠裡面其實你沒有預設立場我覺得這是務實的因為沒有錯"},{"start":13107.372,"end":13118.774,"text":"我們一定要未雨綢繆我們不能等到說這個產業需要的時候結果我們供電不急那另外我想請教就是談到這個AI產業其實現在呢臺灣現在非常非常的熱鬧臺北的這個AI產業圈非常熱鬧你應該知道包含輝達的這個黃仁勛先生還有超維的蘇之鋒都在臺北那我想請問一下你有見到他們嗎"},{"start":13136.319,"end":13136.619,"text":"沒有沒有沒有辦法確認"},{"start":13157.051,"end":13176.131,"text":"那我再用一些時間再回到這個電力的問題因為您來自業界我覺得來自業界最主要的就是你知道企業的真正的需求剛才講說我們希望發展綠電但是呢綠電也一定要控制成本對不對對於企業界來說 是的"},{"start":13179.054,"end":13187.567,"text":"就您一個CEO的角色來講那麼綠電的成本一度電多少錢是你認為企業界可以接受的?"},{"start":13195.528,"end":13205.581,"text":"6塊錢所以如果超過6塊錢的話業界也沒有辦法接受是的那我想請問一下這個可能你就要去盤整一下我們現在的綠電尤其現在這個離岸風電的第3期"},{"start":13210.067,"end":13220.79,"text":"現在面臨了一個狀況就是呢連我們的公股銀行都不願意進去連帶就是因為呢綠電的價格太高那麼因為現在傳出呢你剛講是6塊錢可是問題是離岸風電開出了第三期開出了6塊錢台積電都認為太貴因為他要大量的去買電那所以現在他的財務報告沒有辦法做出來所以現在連我們八大"},{"start":13238.234,"end":13240.835,"text":"在4月底的時候 包含當時的你的前任王美華部長 國發會還有財政部全部的拜託八大航庫能夠連帶給離岸風電的三期的業者可是他們不願意 因為他們覺得財務的風險太高"},{"start":13257.719,"end":13258.499,"text":"我們會在另外把綠能的部分做一個一個"},{"start":13284.824,"end":13295.021,"text":"關股關明的這個一個整合然後把這個綠能的部分綠電的來賣給這些中小的公司所以重點就是"},{"start":13296.078,"end":13322.678,"text":"在這個綠電的部分我覺得一定要控制成本而不是那個價格高到包含台積電都覺得受不了的時候那個時候我覺得其實臺灣99%的產業都受不了這一點非常重要好不好謝謝委員我們一定會讓這個電力讓所有的用戶有競爭力好謝謝謝謝你好謝謝王宏威委員也謝謝郭部長郭部長請回座接下來請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":13327.537,"end":13328.118,"text":"主席郭志輝部長"},{"start":13346.972,"end":13365.427,"text":"部長您好您來自產業界那有一些中小企業的聲音我想要直接跟部長您討論那在上個月我們在質詢經濟部前部長的時候我們也跟部長反映台灣的中小企業有163萬家占全國的98.9%我相信部長您一定非常清楚"},{"start":13366.328,"end":13366.368,"text":"主席"},{"start":13397.308,"end":13402.391,"text":"關於中小企業,因為我們現在想要幫中小企業跟部長您討論有沒有機會提高研發誘因,進一步評估放寬中小企業的研發租稅優惠門檻"},{"start":13425.2,"end":13427.183,"text":"有機會有機會跟財政部討論這件事情讓相關中小企業可以在有意願的情況下提高租稅優惠門檻"},{"start":13438.959,"end":13466.207,"text":"租稅的部分就是導入AI的應用我想這些獎勵是有的但是現行的獎勵會不會對某一些中小企業來說它的機制還是不夠積極的如果有這部分的話我想我們會重新再來討論那這個部分我們辦公室也會持續再跟經濟部討論因為台灣這麼高比例的中小企業這件事情我相信走在數位轉型的路上我們不希望整個台灣有一些隊友被辣掉了好嗎"},{"start":13466.647,"end":13467.187,"text":"大部分都是給小企業的"},{"start":13481.98,"end":13505.614,"text":"還有剛剛我提到關於人才培訓的部分如果有些員工願意去上課而且中小企業也願意支付某些費用去支持自己的員工提升專業能力而這樣子企業投入的員工訓練的成本是不是也可以作為租稅優惠這都需要找財政部討論那因為我們今天時間有限就沒有辦法做這麼積極的討論但是不是有機會請經濟部跟財政部我們一起來討論"},{"start":13506.594,"end":13530.465,"text":"是的謝謝委員根據我們這個同仁的這個表示啊就是這些費用是沒有上限沒有上限好所以相關的細節或是怎麼協助中小企業做相關的租稅檢體我們會再跟經濟部還有財政部討論謝謝部長我們來看下一個部長你知道嗎這個比較輕鬆一點部長今天壓力很大部長你知道嗎你是臺灣史上第一個在棒球危機上面有條目的經濟部長"},{"start":13532.213,"end":13532.253,"text":"主席"},{"start":13554.485,"end":13556.946,"text":"請問部長你是不是認為您的球隊的球員有球隊來幫忙保老保是理所當然的"},{"start":13568.643,"end":13572.026,"text":"國營事業如果不願意幫自己的球員加保勞健保甚至威脅可能不排除解散部長你怎麼看"},{"start":13584.679,"end":13584.839,"text":"報告委員應該不是這樣子"},{"start":13601.934,"end":13627.843,"text":"這個委員可能有點誤會他們是練習生所以不是正式的員工所以沒有辦法幫他們講這個是名義上這個細節我們會再跟部長討論之後更多臺電球員的狀況我們會再跟你討論可是之前我們也去跟勞動部問過囉勞動部也說不應該迴避雇主責任這件事情好那時間有限我們之後會再跟經濟部討論也希望部長您站在您原本就有球隊這個角度來協助這些球員好最後一個"},{"start":13628.703,"end":13636.109,"text":"部長在PTT上喔輕鬆一點我們來看一下轉經長郭志輝參與職棒跳票這件事情"},{"start":13637.527,"end":13659.088,"text":"這個事情是這樣子啊,就是我其實有很多的願望都沒有辦法達成好沒關係,那你現在是部長部長你現在是部長了,我們有沒有機會用經濟部的角度來支持國內的體育跟運動發展我昨天,因為我是以前是棒鞋的副理事長所以我想讓我的經濟部啊,我所屬的這個公司啊,都有球隊"},{"start":13661.124,"end":13662.425,"text":"我相信有更多的委員也會支持這樣的命題"},{"start":13690.988,"end":13691.428,"text":"主席,謝謝,麻煩請郭部長"},{"start":13720.477,"end":13722.779,"text":"身為30年的棒球迷,剛聽到你這邊一席話"},{"start":13725.134,"end":13748.693,"text":"未完成的夢想但是如果說能夠在這個公部門做事不管公司部門一起為我們所有不管是產業或者是運動行業來努力我想這是必要的尤其是我們現在都一直努力本期2020年的時候就開始要求倡議說能夠成立運動發展部最主要運動發展其實不只是體育項目還有產業"},{"start":13749.694,"end":13771.943,"text":"所以也希望說未來運動發展部如果說真的能夠成立的時候產業端的部分能夠跟經濟部多一些配合跟合作是的部長不過還是跟您就教AI的議題是非常火熱那本席早上有跟國科會這邊請教到底我們未來五年內短暫的時間因為之前你也有提過說可能2025到2028"},{"start":13775.935,"end":13799.271,"text":"2025到2028這個會是一個第一波的一個AI浪潮那台灣一定要跑在領先群對不對那我們預估到底我們的人才需求有多少我們的人才看我們展延到什麼樣的一個程度我想在這個LAM的部分其實這個非常專業這個一定是要透過國外的這個大的數據中心他們帶進來"},{"start":13800.714,"end":13822.899,"text":"那至於說在做應該是分兩塊啦,核心技術人才跟一般普遍行業人才對,一般普遍人才我立下了一個到117年為止希望替台灣訓練20萬20萬名,對不對,這在您的報告第三頁裡面有提到但這20萬名裡面是包括說民間一般以及學校大學端的養成"},{"start":13824.281,"end":13849.491,"text":"學校還有這個公司的學會那麼企業還有這個縣市政府所以總共在117年裡面希望能夠培養20萬名是能夠投入到民間一般行業都可以運用AI那相關的計畫呢因為本期今天早上請教國科會的主委喔國科會主委是答不出說需求有多少"},{"start":13850.211,"end":13872.811,"text":"因為我還沒有跟他討論這一部分我認為在經濟部我們有很大的中小企業在中小企業的部分我們要趕快提升他的競爭力導入AI的應用對中小企業來講是非常有好的幫助的"},{"start":13873.131,"end":13874.692,"text":"AI的部分我們大概就在發展在應用"},{"start":13901.647,"end":13902.148,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13920.37,"end":13920.39,"text":"部長："},{"start":13938.047,"end":13959.483,"text":"所以現在是做實事的部分因為你已經講到是說117年等於2028年要培養20萬名的人才嘛那這個不管是學校不管是民間培養不管是可能社會新鮮人我已經出了畢業但我都還可以獲得一些課程來去增進我AI知識然後來去投入這樣的產業所以看起來這是多部會喔"},{"start":13960.263,"end":13984.576,"text":"這不是只是單一部會當然當然經濟部、國科會、教育部、大學端會納進來所以這樣子的一個計畫由誰哪一個部會來做主導實施上面一定是經濟部走在前面規劃的話一定會跟其他的部門共同大家來什麼時候能夠把這完整的計畫讓國人知道因為我覺得這個目標非常好這也是本席今天早上在教育委員會問不到的答案"},{"start":13985.436,"end":14010.972,"text":"我又想說我們政府既然訂了一個目標我們一定知道說有多少需求那我們怎麼樣透過各部會的努力來達成這個需求所以您既然已經點出了一個20萬名本席也認為說這是一個可預期的目標但是各部會因為不太可能說你經濟部要下去跟大學端溝通不太可能經濟部要去跟這個其他這個單位負責的溝通所以"},{"start":14012.612,"end":14040.127,"text":"謝謝這個委員的實證這一部分因為賴總統有特別交代由他自己來這個協調這件事情所以之後是賴清德總統會自己來開會找經濟部教育部搭來對沒錯賴總統自己會開會對他要求我們來這個把這件事情做好所以不是他開會是他會找我們幾個這個這個主委或者是部長去協調溝通"},{"start":14042.386,"end":14059.104,"text":"那開會是我們自己會開會我的意思是說這個事情是他關注的是部長請容許本席提醒我國都還是內閣制的國家所以其實最高的行政首長是行政院長那總統負責的是外交國防兩岸對不起不用對不起啦這個"},{"start":14061.887,"end":14087.877,"text":"總統我們也為什麼會一直講是說國會希望總統能夠來國情報告其實因為他憲政體制的關係所以當然希望說總統他想做的事情尤其是從1996年之後民選了我們當然希望總統有權也有責所以不管你這邊剛講出來你會定期的跟總統來報告或者是說總統很關注我覺得這當然就是要負起相關的責任"},{"start":14089.192,"end":14090.993,"text":"一個半月內就可以完成一個半月內"},{"start":14106.124,"end":14106.564,"text":"接下來我們請王定宇委員發言"},{"start":14136.207,"end":14146.152,"text":"今天應該是你第一次業務報告嗎?"},{"start":14163.206,"end":14186.328,"text":"沒錯我今天帶了一個很長的卷軸我會增加你很長的份量請你見諒部長是從南部到北部打拼的從台灣的最南端那你在科技業在運動方面都有涉獵所以我今天只問一個主題這個AI現在很熱的是NVIDIA跟AMD他們人都在台灣"},{"start":14187.813,"end":14206.764,"text":"我請教第一個問題是NVIDIA跟AMD投資台灣的意義是什麼對我們在經濟上的意義在地緣政治上的意義因你在業界這麼久的話你的分析這代表的價值跟意義是什麼這兩家公司來投資台灣我想最重要的是我們台灣擁有這方面的這個資源"},{"start":14208.783,"end":14215.95,"text":"那天電電工會有分析說全球AI有四分之一是made in Taiwan"},{"start":14229.021,"end":14256.14,"text":"這個數據確不確實不只不只應該更高對應該更高因為現在在戰孤就是說目前AI全球產值可能會從1000億美金到2030年會達到一兆將近6000億美金會成長16倍所以NVIDIA也好AMD也好如果他們選擇投資台灣不管做企業總部或做什麼的對台灣來講是一個肯定更是一門大生意那"},{"start":14258.041,"end":14279.609,"text":"就部長的了解現在NVIDIA跟AMD他們在台灣的投資是定案了只是在選址還是在考慮中基本上我所了解的程度是這樣都在考慮中還沒有確定所以我們應該要提供更多的誘因讓他落腳在我們這裡"},{"start":14280.765,"end":14296.675,"text":"對,因為我昨天有看到郭部長有表達說你會去等於是說服他們投資台灣,因為這也是經濟部長的工作,因為在經濟上的話他來的話不管是產值、聚落或者各方面技術的提升這是第一個價值"},{"start":14297.967,"end":14323.394,"text":"第二個價值是在地緣政治上像黃仁勳講臺灣是值得投資的地方臺灣是安全的地方其實這對國際的投資者不管是資金或者是不管是這個直接投資或經濟投資都是很重要的意義跟價值所以部長目前為止有沒有跟他們兩位接觸到我有接觸到兩個都有了所以你認為落腳臺灣的機會大還是小"},{"start":14326.82,"end":14345.493,"text":"MVDA來講的話我想從他前幾天的表現一旦一直在Promote臺灣我認為他不能夜市吃一吃到時候不投資也不好幹他喜歡吃夜市應該就是會對我們臺灣有很好他在那天所秀的那個影片其實最後那一段"},{"start":14346.334,"end":14367.495,"text":"通通是在介紹台灣他把所有的廠商另外列出17家大學都跟台灣有關係他都感謝台灣因為台灣能夠提供他這個資源我想所有的投資就是不管他的這個情懷怎樣子這個心理距離是非常重要的我現在接下來要進入我的政體了我今天還我剛才打電話給黃偉哲市長"},{"start":14369.477,"end":14390.514,"text":"所以我身上還背一個黃偉哲市長台南是值得投資的地方我有準備台南的優點列了一個這麼長的卷帳我剛才看到有其他委員有寫那個太短了我們台南優點太多了曾文森市長我們台南尤其沙崙這邊的水跟電他一手在那邊不管是盤點綠推辦那時候做了很多事情所以"},{"start":14391.673,"end":14409.233,"text":"當然作為一個部長你左眼點是全台灣但是你對科技業的熟悉你來自於南台灣我們希望這個可以落腳在南台灣特別是台南那台南有哪些利基可以吸引黃仁勳我們第一個我來講的是有關"},{"start":14411.255,"end":14426.454,"text":"歸人目前沙崙我們的我們經濟部也好科技部在那邊都有琢磨很多沙崙周邊光陽明交大就有10公頃的閒置土地成大也有10公頃的閒置土地距離高鐵只有3分鐘"},{"start":14427.575,"end":14454.282,"text":"最高點就三分鐘未來臺南捷運的終點站也在那個地方目前有兩條高速公路一條快速道路所以這一個旁邊還有200多公頃臺唐可以開發的閒置的國有土地所以第一個優點我們那邊地準備好了第二個呢水電這個基礎建設無虞這個就曾文森這個次長當時做的事情你看我們"},{"start":14455.242,"end":14483.956,"text":"台灣的水庫最多在我們台南我們光這三座水庫就有66800萬噸的儲水另外我們還有再生水廠總共有四座再生水可以提供使用那另外電的部分我們海淡廠也做了電的部分我們目前已經在2024年突破4GW也就是說綠電也很內行很多高科技公司必須再生能源"},{"start":14484.696,"end":14508.355,"text":"所以臺南的綠電充足臺南的水電基礎設施沒有問題交通沒有問題那第三個南科是全球最大的三奈米五奈米基地就在這個地方南科然後呢第四個呢我們旁邊有陽明交大成大我們的這方面的人才庫培養充足這第四個第五個呢"},{"start":14509.156,"end":14534.726,"text":"中研院、工研院、國研院、量子所等等等等包含成大醫院沙崙園區都在高鐵三分鐘的圈子裡面再加上中央政府我相信部長會支持過去這是國家重要政策黃偉哲特別請我帶來這句就是臺南市會全力配合中央我們希望能夠讓他落腳在我們那邊第7個剛才講交通都完備了那"},{"start":14536.246,"end":14564.681,"text":"最後最後來講一個就是我們雙語學校一些基礎設施都完成以外我們那邊東西很好吃喜歡吃夜市的人會特別喜歡台南台南的東西最好吃那加上黃南勳跟蘇之鋒他們跟羅家都是我們台南人以上這10點還寫不完啦我這卷軸待會送給部長我是不是最後可以拜託部長NVIDIA跟AMD在可以的範圍內能不能鼓勵他們善用"},{"start":14566.102,"end":14578.119,"text":"這個從蔡總統到賴清德總統都跟大南方計畫的旗艦就是在臺南歸人沙崙能不能鼓勵他們往這邊來落腳部長我剛才念完了現在換你回應"},{"start":14580.066,"end":14602.772,"text":"謝謝委員,我想這個花若盛開,蝴蝶自然,心理距離比較短,應該我想我若是他,心理距離這麼短,應該會有選擇心理距離好像是你博士論文有寫的東西對,心理距離是我博士論文的東西我印象心理距離是你博士論文的東西我剛才講的優點都是真的"},{"start":14604.827,"end":14614.425,"text":"都是假的啦你不能因為你高雄人這樣子你剛剛那個水庫三個水庫留兩個水庫的水是從我們高雄來的沒關係那個水管有通我們都可以接過來所以"},{"start":14616.12,"end":14637.572,"text":"加一的話在我們的北邊所以你三個選部的選一個是加一兩個是高雄部長不要被這兩位一個高雄一個加一的影響臺南是首選AMD跟NVIDIA如果能夠來臺南我們地方到中央一定鼎力配合好啦你時間到了啦你一個臺南的比不過我們經濟委員會有四個高雄的你現在是在這裡嗆聲"},{"start":14642.954,"end":14659.381,"text":"謝謝王定宇委員 接下來我們請蔡易宇委員發言好 謝謝趙薇 那我們是不是有請我們郭部長來請郭部長"},{"start":14670.214,"end":14689.861,"text":"部長好部長我剛剛那個王委員講好多啦可是我相信在你的心目中啦因為你對嘉義很熟啦所以我不用講那麼多業勢啦土地跟水啦我們嘉義的優勢就是有一個郭部長我們就夠了對不對謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":14694.052,"end":14718.225,"text":"我們部長都一家一,民雄跟鹿草都有我想要跟部長事實上也是聊一下就是說我們從最近的新聞可以看到整個半導體的產業大概是在台灣蓬勃發展我們大家看到了從黃仁訊的NVIDIA到整個"},{"start":14721.047,"end":14741.403,"text":"臺積電把整個半導體護國神山而且是越來越強把臺灣整個打到國際去但是我們在注重臺積電的先進製程的時候我們還是回過頭會去對於另外半導體除了先進製程還有所謂成熟製程"},{"start":14741.883,"end":14770.426,"text":"那成熟製程有包括包括車用晶片包括我們現在傳統的一些一些比較還不到AI領域但是他也是很重要也是很重要但是可以看出說在這一個成熟製程的這一個市場上中國非常的積極他最近又通過了他要用他要投資中國這邊"},{"start":14772.346,"end":14799.474,"text":"他最近又說他要再投資加碼投資整個成熟製程的一個這個投資的規格高達了這個3440億所以中國這樣的一個加碼投資那我們台灣的因應知道了我們成熟的製程的這個業者來講其實都還是具有競爭力中國現在成熟製程大概都是在40奈米"},{"start":14801.418,"end":14814.479,"text":"臺灣現在成熟都在20到28奈米這個其實在這個generation上面還是有一些區隔那中國的40奈米影響的其實只有他自己"},{"start":14815.486,"end":14815.566,"text":"臺積電10奈米"},{"start":14833.63,"end":14839.732,"text":"所以部長就是說這一塊因為成熟製程我們知道說在疫情期間因為缺少車用晶片所以你看它已經說晶片現在已經變成火車頭產業了"},{"start":14858.078,"end":14876.696,"text":"因為沒有晶片,所以後來整個汽車製造業全部大遲延,全部沒辦法購車,就是少了車用晶片。但是我們在成熟製程的這一塊,如果中國這樣不斷的加碼投資,然後他們事實上到最後就會變成說低價。"},{"start":14877.517,"end":14899.462,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":14899.562,"end":14916.489,"text":"因為我跳出來說會針對中國的這種攻擊性投資他們已經開始在focus而且甚至都要去做中國的這樣的相關持有製程的追蹤那會之後會不會演變成美國對中國的貿易戰不知道但是我們台灣怎麼因應這一塊"},{"start":14917.909,"end":14935.6,"text":"跟委員報告這個我想成熟的製程基本上還是會在商業上面運轉的時候會考慮他的良率那中國我想在這個成熟製程他目前的良率還沒有那麼好所以短暫的這一兩年我們還看不出對台灣的廠商有什麼太大的威脅"},{"start":14936.84,"end":14962.371,"text":"但是在未來當它良率上來了以後可能就會有一些業績不過這一部分台灣的廠商自己都非常清楚所以他們一定會往這個更先進的製程去移動他們會往先進的製程移動那對我們來講我想我們也會這個讓台灣的這個IC設計業者就是說大家盡量朝這個先進製程大家去努力"},{"start":14964.012,"end":14984.054,"text":"臺灣大部分這些晶片業者都是在做這個代工的部分我們所謂代工是在替他們製造替這個業者製造那對我們來講我其實對這一部分完全不擔心說中國會有來超越臺灣的部分因為他的良率還是一直沒有做很好"},{"start":14984.454,"end":15000.694,"text":"好那所以我想這一塊是我們台灣的優勢我們經濟部是有這樣的義務應該要好好的去守護整個這樣的一個產業那好那就講到了剛才部長說的代工嘛台灣就是強在這個代工的整個甚至我們的代工也逐步發展"},{"start":15001.235,"end":15019.642,"text":"那在代工的這個同時我們能不能在半導體整個產業在蓬勃發展的時候我們台灣對於所謂半導體的材料或者是相關的一些設備我們能不能進一步的來推動國產化有在我們經濟部的計畫裡面我們會在這個未來的這個4年對設備還有材料我們希望有一些這個"},{"start":15029.4,"end":15052.818,"text":"福島跟這些獎勵讓台灣的國產化可以提高就現階段而言台灣的這一塊的國產化是不高的這是整個材料尤其是材料我們就半導體的材料還是進口居多這中間包括從日本進口來就不少這中間當然有涉及到說整個日本他們對於材料的純度是比"},{"start":15054.259,"end":15059.606,"text":"臺灣好所以臺灣的相關的設備業者要怎麼迎頭趕上這個也要由經濟部這邊來來發揮是謝謝謝謝這個委員指教好那所以講到的這個設備嗎那我還是要進一步的跟部長說因為在"},{"start":15069.957,"end":15094.739,"text":"我們嘉義的入草這個馬籌後的一個產業園區我們目前有規劃45公頃這個是在那個改組前由鄭文燦前副院長他一手去規劃他們希望在馬籌後這邊拉出45公頃來作為半導體的材料以及設備的一個供應鏈把設備材料供應鏈可以放在馬籌後"},{"start":15095.599,"end":15119.191,"text":"那我想要請教部長說,這個計畫不會因為內閣改組改變吧?應該沒有,這個會持續進行中。持續進行嘛,那如果按照原先的一個規劃是在年底就要開始招商,那保定這部分在招商的整個的時程以及你們的信心度現在是如何的?"},{"start":15119.711,"end":15142.381,"text":"現在進行中已經開始在規劃那馬上在這個年底就要招商嘛要開招商說明會要開招商說明會那我們希望說這一塊可以加速招商是阿剛也要去說說還是延續啦就是包括現在黃仁勳所說的他希望在台灣有設置這一個研發的一個基地嘛"},{"start":15143.261,"end":15164.637,"text":"這個研發基地我想事實上嘉義嘉義黃仁勳我們黃仁勳會不會考慮嘉義我們不知道但是有一個人他會考慮嘉義有一個人我補充我不是跟你說你你這樣太大了梁建厚梁建厚是我們嘉義族旗人所以他過去"},{"start":15165.518,"end":15183.033,"text":"我們這個梁先生過去真的有考慮在嘉義要投資要設廠那在當時我就我們翁章良縣長給我的資訊在當時他要考慮在嘉義要設廠但是他們卻對於嘉義的工業區的土地是不足的"},{"start":15183.974,"end":15212.435,"text":"所以以那順座最豪氣的投資沒有成型所以表示說我們嘉義勒因為如果以整個現在整個AI產業是要半導體產業的一個布局從高雄台南甚至未來在嘉義那嘉義台積電已經有現階段就有兩廠的COAS的一個封裝廠那未來還會有所謂材料跟設備的一個產業的一個園區裡面出來所以我們嘉義勒事實上就整個AI產業的布局咱嘉義是整個"},{"start":15216.378,"end":15226.489,"text":"加南高是一個整體的一個園區,我們加以可能在工業區的土地不足,所以部長這部分你可以來協助我們,是不是要交給我們來推動社區?"},{"start":15231.033,"end":15231.053,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":15255.06,"end":15255.08,"text":"吳麗華委員"},{"start":15282.455,"end":15292.482,"text":"部長好委員好我看到好多委員今天都在比來自哪裡那我跟您自我介紹我屏東我驕傲我跟您一樣來自屏東"},{"start":15294.483,"end":15315.495,"text":"謝謝在這裡其實大家對您的印象就是您來自業界所以對您期許就是您一定可以做一個接地氣的部長特別是您來自偏鄉也做過基層的工作所以我想這也是賴總統卓院長對您的一個期許那我就來問比較接地氣的問題"},{"start":15317.436,"end":15345.03,"text":"我們看到今年就是有做一個BBC的全球市警就是三分之一的人類是高度缺水那另外呢今年的世界水資源日聯合國也提出一個市警就是全球有四分之一的人是沒有乾淨的飲水也因此呢在財經新聞我們看到水資源的概念股呢他是一個熱門股那您來自業界水有多麼珍貴"},{"start":15345.99,"end":15346.43,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15362.601,"end":15382.957,"text":"用水的政策我想大家還是雖然台灣是這個市面環海然後也經常下雨我認為用水還是大家要節省這個水現在因為這個氣候變遷的關係那用水要節省當然要有一些手段對不對是"},{"start":15385.513,"end":15406.496,"text":"對阿 要不然大家為什麼要截水 對不對那我這樣子問齁 就是我們原住民 我是原住民選出來的立法委員我們原住民經常會來跟我陳情阿 就是關於水之水量的保護區 水資源回饋金的問題那我看到經濟部水利署公告 全國"},{"start":15407.757,"end":15436.696,"text":"有114處是化射保護區那原鄉的部分呢有59處所以這個佔比大概是52%如果去用面積來算佔比的話那其實佔比是更大的那我以舉一個例子來講像是高雄有一個納瑪下區他們曾經全鄉的民意代表來跟我澄清就是有關他們的水資源回饋金的分配我請教部長"},{"start":15437.697,"end":15451.962,"text":"如果說他水資源回饋金他的分配比是3%但是他的隔壁箱下游箱假設是假先他的分配比是14.14%你覺得你的感受是什麼"},{"start":15456.599,"end":15457.32,"text":"這是依照人口跟面積的影響"},{"start":15469.477,"end":15492.479,"text":"那但是呢他們會不理解就是為什麼會差距這麼高所以我要特別在您的面前謝謝水利署因為水利署呢這三年多其實他們很盡心盡力的來協助納馬下區的一個困擾雖然還沒有結果但是很有進展我在這邊要特別謝謝水利署那另外我舉一個例子北區好了"},{"start":15493.2,"end":15516.338,"text":"全國原鄉水源保護區最大的面積的就是復興區桃園的復興區那他們曾經也來跟我澄清他們的訴求是什麼呢第一他們希望說他們分配到的水資源回饋金希望能夠去免檢據申辦那個錢也不多還要檢據來申請所以這個部分已經解決了因為可以原理"},{"start":15517.139,"end":15531.704,"text":"北水特局無來他們已經處理了處理好那第二個訴求就是說能不能夠把回饋金的分配公式調整一下因為目前的公式是面積跟人口那他們以為這樣子調整就可以解決這個問題那第三個他們是說那就來治本"},{"start":15535.285,"end":15555.638,"text":"那我們就把自來水法裡面的這個水資源回饋金的比例已經訂定20年他的法源是5%到15%可是20年來從增訂這個法都一直維持在5%好那我想這個都是解方那我自己也要想辦法所以呢我也有提案修法像這個自來水法的12條之2我們就去把"},{"start":15557.679,"end":15557.699,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":15582.352,"end":15593.53,"text":"我剛剛講了這麼多您來自業界這20年水資源的珍稀程度不可同日而語啊那您覺得我們該不該去做修法"},{"start":15594.72,"end":15619.917,"text":"我想我支持這個委員您的這個看法是那我也感同身受是那但是呢這個具體的內容我不是那麼瞭解是那是不是容我回去跟我的同仁我們大家再研究以後好那我是希望說至少把它試算出來然後研究一下然後來報告一下各位的態度好不好部長您的態度至少目前是肯定的是支持的嘛對不對是謝謝"},{"start":15620.997,"end":15621.117,"text":"主席"},{"start":15638.866,"end":15641.029,"text":"我們的台電說電纜地下化比例已經高達44.3%高於日韓了但是我知道的是原鄉也會來跟我抱怨啊我們也要地下電纜化你看一下這個照片有沒有"},{"start":15653.843,"end":15678.903,"text":"有的部落裡面這個像話嗎對 但是我好像都等不到勒我就不曉得說這個母樹到底是來自於全台哪一些區域啊我們原鄉也很想因為我跟您報告部長我接到好幾個案例都是電線有的不是110伏特 220伏特有的時候是裸露有的時候是電線掉下來到水溝去洗個手"},{"start":15679.343,"end":15699.889,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":15699.929,"end":15700.389,"text":"臺電跟水利署"},{"start":15730.562,"end":15730.902,"text":"經濟部的郭部長"},{"start":15758.795,"end":15771.946,"text":"部長你好委員好這個看你今天這個一個早上下來好像有刃有餘了齁這個我問你幾個問題簡短的問題第一個原來媒體報導說你身價超過100億有嗎我不知道他從哪裡得到我有身價100億你自己講有沒有嗎沒有"},{"start":15788.999,"end":15815.29,"text":"有比較漏氣耶 大家幫你捧很高 大家對你期待很高你要說一百億 我覺得問題就是 但是你不管多少啦齁 即便沒有一百億 幾十億都有啦 一定有嘛 對不對有這麼有錢 你當經濟部長 你沒想過 我們一般的勞工 三分之二領不到平均工資"},{"start":15816.707,"end":15816.847,"text":"資本家．"},{"start":15843.84,"end":15862.576,"text":"我是有出資本經營公司的那就資本家嘛我們台灣GDP賺的錢都給你們賺走了基層的員工拿43%你們拿很多很多錢啦所以我就問你一個問題你當經濟部長怎麼樣讓企業幫助員工加薪告訴我"},{"start":15864.52,"end":15884.771,"text":"這個對我來講不是什麼太難的問題跟委員報告我只要讓我所有的企業所做的工作是加值的工作在他的人工的成本相對比例之下那一定是可以給員工加薪的不是你現在當經濟部長了嘛等於是所有董事長的董事長"},{"start":15886.01,"end":15911.912,"text":"你管企業基本上你應該有辦法請你告訴我們有什麼辦法讓他們對員工相信我最快的方法就是我的境內關外的這個做法境內關外對我境內關外的做法就是利用一些這個稅制然後邀請國外在那裡免稅是不是對用免稅的方法然後擴大我的內需市場那你跟財政部談過沒有請問"},{"start":15913.598,"end":15937.347,"text":"我們先提出來這樣的一個想法境內關外那就是過去我們在馬英九時代執政的時候所談到的經濟示範區這個概念境內關外自由流動零關稅零這個障礙對吧不完全一樣"},{"start":15940.819,"end":15956.409,"text":"這個我再問你一個具體的我提案了對中小企業150萬家他給員工加薪我們給他乘以現在是130乘以兩倍200%的費用你同意嗎"},{"start":15957.762,"end":15981.915,"text":"我盡量來讓這個所有的這個薪資啊都能夠提升到這個委員剛才所指導的這樣的一個方向境內管外的意思是要每一個地區都要劃境內管外喔港口旁邊機場旁邊都要劃是這個意思喔我們的境內管外是對某一些業者來講給他一些virtual的虛擬的virtual不是一個area不是這樣子"},{"start":15982.735,"end":16009.45,"text":"是一個虛擬的他在他原來的地方從事所謂價值是內關外可以加薪今天一個很重要的事情第二個請問你有沒有跟黃榮鑫見過面有什麼時候前幾天吃飯的時候怎麼沒有找你吃飯找我沒有沒有我大概因為在減肥所以不吃這個宵夜你不喜歡吃台灣的夜市是吧"},{"start":16010.509,"end":16028.804,"text":"我喜歡台灣夜市但是不喜歡跟大家一起逛夜市所以所以他逛夜市我們也邀請你嘛我不是他的業者所以他不會邀請我我希望你我們對一般對你期待是高的"},{"start":16029.537,"end":16049.887,"text":"可是我感覺你接了部長這段時間你才變4月18號你說核電如果需要研議要全民共事這句話還有效嗎一樣好那我們請看下一頁現在最新的一個民調PACE"},{"start":16051.348,"end":16068.218,"text":"清潔人員公眾態度83%的臺灣人支持民調支持核電2018年以核養綠就是我核電來養我的綠電等到成熟了我核電再退"},{"start":16069.696,"end":16091.285,"text":"這個通過了這就是全民共識啊結果你在五天以前河山廠你說要用當作備用電力啊全世界沒有一個經濟部長或者一個大專家說河電居然是備用備援的UBA"},{"start":16093.064,"end":16106.954,"text":"河電當然是機載用電啊怎麼會是備用呢怎麼你越來越縮起來啊原來的說全民有公司我就用河電後來一直退啊變成我的感覺啊部長你原來是生意人"},{"start":16107.935,"end":16131.63,"text":"大家因為知道你頭腦清楚和賺錢腦筋清楚大家對你期待很高有個期待希望你不要變成政客但是你越來越像政客這個完全就是跟民進黨的廢核家人走了你現在不敢談核電了這個你不敢談核電了居然說AI用電量很高"},{"start":16133.231,"end":16158.099,"text":"這時候你開始用光電難道把台灣全部都蓋滿這個光電板你說用光電你就是不談到核電跟委員報告這個委員可能有點誤會啦這個核能不能不是說不能夠當基載而是我在講說核能當然是基載阿全世界都是基載阿對啊怎麼備用呢怎麼到底在那邊備用呢備用是因為我將它它因為受我們現在的法令的規定它必須要降載"},{"start":16158.999,"end":16162.601,"text":"檢查完以後再上來上來的時候我認為這個上來會不會上來這個我們不能夠把它當成一定要做的機長工作"},{"start":16175.848,"end":16185.896,"text":"你要蓋個新的電廠要6年時間對吧對好要6年時間那就是天然氣的又是有CO2全世界是簡單不淨核阿那現在有的核三廠我已經替你法律我都列好了"},{"start":16192.12,"end":16196.161,"text":"報告委員這個部分是這樣子說如果沒有把這個法解掉的話我會這樣子做"},{"start":16221.018,"end":16221.998,"text":"我希望做你郭智暉"},{"start":16245.615,"end":16271.847,"text":"你不要做民進黨的郭志輝,要做中華民國經濟部長的郭志輝,可以嗎?謝謝委員指導,謝謝要有骨氣啦,不要把這政治軟下去啦,謝謝謝謝,來,部長請回座休息好,接下來我們請李博義,李博義委員不在,我們請賴會員委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請中華民國經濟部長郭志輝來,請郭部長"},{"start":16279.673,"end":16307.4,"text":"部長午安午安是我想這個無庸置疑你是中華民國的經濟部長郭志輝是對好那部長我想針對的就是本土化的一個電池產業是穩定電源的能量的一個關鍵來跟你做今天的一個執行的一個探討我們知道就是賴總統在這個淨零轉型的五大策略裡頭"},{"start":16308.32,"end":16308.7,"text":"主席"},{"start":16326.727,"end":16349.081,"text":"全世界最大咖的這個晶片的科技的一個大咖都在我們臺灣聚集他們當然就是說不管是我們的那個揮打的黃神興還是我們超維的那個尼薩蘇還是英格爾的季辛格其實他們來到這裡為了搶曝光以外我想他們真正的在臺灣的這一個電腦展是為了鞏固臺灣供應的這一個廠商的一個關係"},{"start":16355.145,"end":16355.225,"text":"主席"},{"start":16385.986,"end":16392.071,"text":"臺灣的電池在中國搶佔全球市場 排擠臺灣電池的產業經濟的侵略裡部長你有沒有一個思維 考慮在我們國安本土化去中化的一個穩定的儲能的趨勢是一個趨勢 那是勢在必行"},{"start":16413.667,"end":16441.497,"text":"是的 如委員所指教的我想這個儲能因為我們也有用一些這個光電用一些這個風電所以儲能相對對我們來講做智慧調整是非常重要的一個部分所以我們不一定要靠這個中國的這個電池這個電池產業我想這個大家都清楚了他的這個安全性在其他的方面不見得是那麼穩健"},{"start":16442.777,"end":16461.677,"text":"所以我們必須要有自己的這個所以部長你已經看到了其實你也實際在產業界裡頭你做到了很好的一個那個使用者體驗你知道是中國的電池其實基本上他並不是那麼安全那就是說在整個全世界這個器中化的一個經濟正在就是"},{"start":16462.077,"end":16462.117,"text":"臺灣的一個"},{"start":16492.02,"end":16492.22,"text":"主席"},{"start":16512.176,"end":16512.196,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":16534.514,"end":16536.777,"text":"臺電、中華電、中鋼、中船用最多的電池,強力推動政策性用國產電池的政策"},{"start":16551.003,"end":16566.037,"text":"謝謝委員指教這部分我想我們必須要回去再討論一下這樣子的做法有沒有違反WTO的這個規範那如果沒有的話我覺得應該是可以考慮從這方面來講"},{"start":16567.739,"end":16585.631,"text":"在2022年我們的國家電池隊就是已經是先是成立了我想這些問題應該在之前的那個就是我們的行政院的團隊已經考慮的夠周全了如果就是說他在能源局他在就是在整個就是"},{"start":16586.511,"end":16588.833,"text":"報告委員,我想一個企業不管他是做哪一方面的這個事業,他應該要有自己的競爭力"},{"start":16609.213,"end":16634.445,"text":"如果是靠國家補助我覺得他還是走不出去所以我前面已經鋪陳了這麼久我就說在整個去中化裡頭其實我們的國內電池已經被中國的一個那個補貼就是把它打得東倒西歪了如果現在只剩下一家你還不來救他的話那怎麼辦呢我們的電池必須要所有養障就是進口的這個是不對的"},{"start":16636.055,"end":16636.475,"text":"我們會回去討論"},{"start":16659.062,"end":16659.482,"text":"接下來請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":16697.423,"end":16712.671,"text":"主席有請部長來請郭部長部長好我曾經擔任過總統府副秘書長"},{"start":16714.493,"end":16737.166,"text":"當時馬英九總統許多重要的政策我是負責追蹤的我還記得馬總統那時候跟我談到一件事情就是蔡英文總統講2025非核家園他曾經對我做了四大預言我來請教部長這四大預言有沒有成真他的第一個預言是再生能源2025%絕對跳票請問馬英九的預言成真了嗎"},{"start":16753.043,"end":16765.547,"text":"因為各種變數關係啦,現在只能做到...你只要跟我講這議員陳真了嗎?我們的2025再生能源能到20%嗎?只要跟我講到不到的了?部長你剛剛這個問題回答了25秒欸到了的了嗎?2025 20%做的到嗎?"},{"start":16773.428,"end":16779.751,"text":"應該是做不到就是做不到那請問馬總統的預言成真了嗎?跳票了沒?2025跳票了沒?不會第一個問題就五分鐘發呆結束吧?部長我很尊敬你但是我希望你回答問題有點擔當一點連這麼簡單的問題你已經耗了一分半了"},{"start":16796.653,"end":16825.035,"text":"您的問題我想我很很簡單嗎?如果說你用這樣的一個一個要我急大事的我就告訴你是跳票謝謝一分半後你終於講那我想請問賴清德總統說2030年他的再生能源他要打多少?30%啦我告訴你啦你就一個經濟部部長你很負責任告訴我做得到嗎?2030年你可以打包票做得到嗎?"},{"start":16826.551,"end":16852.925,"text":"你做得到嗎?不是努力的問題,這是總統的目標欸總統的目標我們當然要努力去做做不做得到?你願意打包票嗎?這個不是我一個人可以做的事你很努力啦,但是你也不敢打包票啦你不敢打包票,當然你不敢打包票啊你知道馬總統卸任的時候再生能源大概是5%經過8年之後成長到現在再生能源比重多少?"},{"start":16855.863,"end":16880.314,"text":"9%部長你都跟我講不會停電我沒有一個問題你答得出來你根本不會確定沒有一個問題答得出來我到現在為止沒有一個問題你答得出來現在是多少請問部長現在是多少占比多少9.6你8年成長大概不到5%你跟我講說接下來6年你要再增加從9.6變成30%成長20%"},{"start":16884.69,"end":16890.975,"text":"部長,你覺得這個票會不會是巴拉票啊?成為巴拉票的機率高不高啊?我們會重新去檢討這一個結構。第二個馬總統的預言,大幅依賴火力,飛河之後,然後也違反世界減碳的趨勢,這個預言成真了沒有?"},{"start":16913.235,"end":16933.829,"text":"這個是個過程啦 從低碳到零碳當然是一個 這個預言成真了沒有 現在是不是大幅預帶火力 是不是啊我們現在是 是嘛 所以馬總統第二個預言也成真了嘛 很佩服他可以預言成真 謝謝部長終於願意肯定 第三個當然齁 可能就有得講了 電價必漲請問馬總統八年你知道電價漲大概多少嗎 23啦"},{"start":16941.46,"end":16949.075,"text":"蔡英文8年長多少?33啦哪一個比較高?33-23高是數學問題經濟部長應該答得出來"},{"start":16952.678,"end":16980.474,"text":"這個裡面當然有很多不可預期的因素了你不要講你統統有不可預期因素我只跟你講絕對數字23%跟33%哪一個高數學當然是33%高阿那很好阿謝謝你阿第三個議員也成真阿那我想請教部長你敢不敢像蔡英文一樣大聲的告訴大家10年不大漲電價你敢不敢你願不願意我科學的態度是不願意對非常好謝謝部長我現在開始尊敬你你用科學態度沒有問題"},{"start":16981.658,"end":16993.733,"text":"做不到的事情不要亂承諾部長就展現一個非常好的一個點範第4個我跟你就有點意見不同你說電力不缺馬總統說電力必缺我會發現原因在哪裡"},{"start":16994.878,"end":17021.915,"text":"有一個 有一個人齁 年薪千萬 他覺得他不缺錢就覺得他很缺錢 有可能嘛 對不對 年薪千萬覺得很缺錢嘛 可能嘛但有的年薪百萬覺得不缺錢嘛 對不對缺不缺是主觀感受問題 但我要問的是民眾觀感的停電問題 想請教您 部長我們現在停電的狀況怎麼樣 我問你齁 過去16年 20年好了超過百萬戶以上的大停電 發生過幾次"},{"start":17025.51,"end":17029.593,"text":"20年過去20年發生過幾次百萬戶以上停電所以請說我告訴你是不會公布資料發生百萬戶以上的大停電你沒統計有啦我在馬政府時候就看過資料啦這20年包括這16年馬政府到蔡英文政府甚至陳水扁政府就4次"},{"start":17051.24,"end":17075.21,"text":"沒錯吧我數字有沒有錯815過來是4次就4次嘛全部發生在誰任內呃但是跟委員報告齁那幾次的停電都是在白天太陽光你不要跟我講白天晚上阿我只問是幾次4次你講完誰任內嘛全部參議員任內嘛對啦你們不缺電啦但你們大停電特別多啦最後一個數字講完就結束啦"},{"start":17076.903,"end":17096.875,"text":"2016年我們每戶每人每年每戶每戶每年的停電分鐘數請問部長是多少我直接告訴你你又答不出來我知道16分鐘你知道2022年加上我們的所謂的大停電號就是所謂303大停電號每戶每年的停電時間是多少你知道嗎106分鐘啦你這台電數字喔"},{"start":17103.083,"end":17129.789,"text":"沒錯吧我沒講錯吧謝謝你哈106是16分鐘多少倍6倍6倍我跟你講連第四個不缺電的預言他都中了啦所以部長我要告訴您哈您之前主張你願意對於核能採取所謂正面態度這是正確的差一政府四個票票馬政府四個預言都達到以上謝謝"},{"start":17133.765,"end":17146.454,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的發言來部長請回座休息我想還是要尊重一下主席的才事啦來接下來我們請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":17153.207,"end":17173.424,"text":"請問您是來這裡吵架的嗎?來請羅廷偉委員發言你憑什麼在事後在說我?你憑什麼?做人公道一點不要雙標不要因為我問到重點你怕了就開始用這種方式來做"},{"start":17175.217,"end":17200.014,"text":"請尊重主席的職權如果您有病的話就請吃藥請看醫生來請羅丁惠委員發言有病真的要看醫生來請羅丁惠委員發言好謝謝主席有請部長以及水利署署長來請賴署長"},{"start":17207.199,"end":17231.016,"text":"部長好 委員好部長第一次跟您談話那看完了這一個經濟部的業務報告半導體 AI 全球佈局 供電穩定還有中小型的低碳數位雙軸轉型那我關心的是水環境那過往我們在這個前瞻預算有相關的水環境的一些建設"},{"start":17232.097,"end":17254.506,"text":"那我在這個上任的初期2月1號以後很積極的想要去了解未來的還有沒有前瞻預算以及會不會編列一些預算對於台中市的水環境給予我們更多的一些建設那我有去關心那我想先問一下部長你有來過台中嗎很少很少台中有柳川綠川有聽過嗎"},{"start":17256.679,"end":17280.672,"text":"聽過柳川綠川其實在林佳龍市長任內盧秀燕市長任內不斷的努力做了一期二期甚至柳川有做到三期那目前我們在做第四期的一個延伸有爭取相關的一個計畫可惜應該是台中市政府的計畫內容沒有寫得很好然後被打槍這個當然不能夠怪經濟部也不能怪水利署"},{"start":17281.252,"end":17295.803,"text":"但是後續我在追蹤這個問題的過程當中發現水利署告訴我是沒有預算需要再辨列不知道部長對於水環境的建設未來可不可以展現出態度也願意一起來重視呢?"},{"start":17297.571,"end":17323.686,"text":"我想我們對各市提出來的這些需求我想我們都會重視是謝謝部長但是就是因為業務報告沒有看到水環境的部分當然當然不可能要你全部寫完然後經濟部的工作內容太多了所以我是擔憂水環境的部分會不會喊卡而台中市包括柳川綠川以及我們的三合分署"},{"start":17324.446,"end":17353.112,"text":"山河局所管轄的我東區漢溪大理漢溪潭子漢溪豐原漢溪北屯的漢溪這條漢溪非常的長也需要經濟部給予一定的預算這部分是不是能夠幫我深入探討呢?是我剛才聽我們隨意署在講說這個還在這個立法院審議中所以只要審過我們就會去執行那你有提出需求有提出相關預算給我們審嗎?"},{"start":17355.835,"end":17378.448,"text":"現在的第5期的概算那個我請這個水利署來回答您問題因為當時國會聯絡人跟我們講說不是這些的計畫都在縣政府縣市政府在提報之中但是因為它涉及到前瞻的第5期預算那第5期預算現在在概編之中那未來若是第5期預算奉大院審定核定的時候我們就開始啟動平和的作業"},{"start":17379.288,"end":17389.683,"text":"因為我們基本上我都知道一定是臺中市政府先送計畫來爭取但是問題是我跟國會聯絡人在聯繫的時候他所謂的前瞻預算第5期他是告訴我沒有這筆錢"},{"start":17391.791,"end":17416.113,"text":"我們會改正這一部分所以這個部分是不是能夠幫我關注一下到底是資訊上的一個落差還是怎麼樣但是我今天的重點就是我很關注台中市的水環境那台中市的水環境在之前的努力有給予我們一定的預算一二三期都有做後面能不能延伸柳川的第四期綠川的第三期以及漢溪的整治這部分是不是可以高度的一個關注"},{"start":17417.455,"end":17443.503,"text":"在未來的審查的時候我們來看市政府的計畫是怎麼樣的進行我想部長今天很多人對於AI對於發電能源綠能都有很多的一個關注跟你做探討今天我想少數會跟你探討這一個部分的水環境是不是也請你稍微幫我留意一下我也希望看到第5期的前瞻能夠審過以後能夠適時真的有編列這樣的預算分配到台中市讓我們繼續延續之前的水環境建設"},{"start":17444.423,"end":17445.624,"text":"經濟部有自己首推的縣市嗎?"},{"start":17472.455,"end":17472.875,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":17491.185,"end":17492.785,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":17530.455,"end":17530.475,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":17556.537,"end":17569.918,"text":"那SRF它是現在最新的叫做固體再生燃料那是不是那個那可能請署長來幫忙回答一下那我請問一下SRF的部分我們這邊認定它是綠能嗎"},{"start":17574.112,"end":17574.292,"text":"對,好,那"},{"start":17595.08,"end":17606.491,"text":"如果像我們台灣的SRF它並沒有特別限定它裡面有包含廢輪胎、PVC管還有一些塑料、金屬材料那這些燃燒出來的部分的東西它算是綠能嗎?"},{"start":17608.208,"end":17628.923,"text":"呃 這個部分就要看他的還是要還是要看他的這些燒出來的東西 廢輪胎燒出來可以算綠能嗎廢輪胎如果他就是石化的話 如果是橡膠當然他就不能被歸納為是綠能的部分但是我們講說用廢棄物製成燃料再發電這目前在我們的再生條例裡面這個是認定為再生能源但是他不是綠能"},{"start":17629.912,"end":17643.897,"text":"好 所以基本上臺灣的SRF其他的標準嚴格來講算起來不能算是綠能只能算是再生能源嗎還是要看它的成分啦我跟委員報告那有碳排可以算綠能嗎"},{"start":17645.267,"end":17660.859,"text":"就是說它如果是裡面有包含石化原料的話就不算是綠能嘛但是所以我臺灣的排放標準其實就是包含這些所以嚴格來講它有這些東西燒出來就不能算是綠能那我想請問一下那我們針對我們109年的時候我們經濟部長那時候王美花部長"},{"start":17665.362,"end":17686.54,"text":"他有當時有跟我們那時候的桃園市長鄭文燦市長好針對桃園有3家SRF廠商入園這部分署長應該知道吧這3家就是台灣地方可寧會跟麗江3家廠嗎是這個知道好那針對這3家廠後來因為民眾說沒有環評沒有開公聽會後來"},{"start":17693.325,"end":17715.205,"text":"民眾就開始抗爭那我們去了解以後那其實在107年開始的時候我們經發級專業主管單位都反對這三家SRF廠入園然後後來也針對特別也針對氣電工生的部分他們也很明確說氣電工生只能天然氣所以也就是說這SRF廠的發電廠"},{"start":17718.147,"end":17719.048,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":17739.628,"end":17762.225,"text":"因為民眾的抗爭那我想請問一下後來民眾的抗爭之後我們也當時我們才發現原來鄭市長原先也是不同意的那後來也因為經濟部要求後來鄭市長也說那你發推薦函我再允許他入園那署長這部分應該知道吧"},{"start":17763.683,"end":17779.802,"text":"那後來因為民眾抗爭又取消了這個推薦函那這部分應該也了解吧那我請問一下那當初這三家廠商入園之後我們跟廠商有沒有信賴保護原則"},{"start":17782.694,"end":17808.833,"text":"我請這個署長回答一下我跟委員報告齁當初是基於剛才講的再生能源還有循環經濟沒關係我意思是說當初因為經濟部推薦嘛我們政事部推薦還沒有 經濟部推薦還沒有那這裏面有沒有信賴保護原則經濟部推薦還只是純粹的一個建議那整個裏面也會議區也做得很清楚還是要回歸到桃園市政府的對就是所以就是"},{"start":17811.431,"end":17837.074,"text":"桃園市政府政事長有講他是依經濟部的推薦函才同意這三家廠商入園那所以現在我們經濟部撤銷這個推薦函那市府也依我們經濟部撤銷這個推薦函之後也取消他入園但是現在這三家廠商已經對桃園市政府提告不知道我們經濟部知不知道這個事情"},{"start":17837.654,"end":17862.407,"text":"那是提那個訴願對提訴願嘛就是訴訟嘛所以這個當初就是有信賴保護原則所以他才提出訴願對不對各位委員報告我們那個建議函在所有的入園許可中不是必備要件完全是回到桃園市政府當時的所謂的圖管那個入園的相關的許可去好那我請問一下你當初推薦他入園的原因是什麼"},{"start":17863.308,"end":17863.468,"text":"主席"},{"start":17878.608,"end":17894.661,"text":"主席我重點請問一下那現在因為經濟部當初推薦所以市府才讓他入園結果後來為什麼經濟部又取消那市府當初有講我依經濟部的推薦我才同意他入園"},{"start":17895.382,"end":17919.894,"text":"所以後來經濟部取消這個推薦欄表示這個推薦已經不復存在所以後來市府一推薦欄的取消所以也取消他入園但是後來廠商提出這個訴願那我想請問這個部分難道經濟部不用負責全部由桃園市政府來承擔嗎我跟委員報告剛剛我也特別提到這個只是一個建議那我們那個會議記錄寫得非常清楚"},{"start":17922.535,"end":17944.403,"text":"所有一切還是要回到桃園市政府的圖管條例好那我今天講重點當初依經濟部的推薦經濟部上級上級單位專業的推薦市府也特別要講他是依我們經濟部的推薦他才同意入園這我們在市長講得很清楚那後來你們主動"},{"start":17945.063,"end":17955.354,"text":"收回這個推薦吶表示這個推薦的原因已經不復存在所以我認為喔這邊簡單兩點建議喔我是認為喔民眾已經抗爭而且其實SRF啊署長啊你從頭到尾根本沒有辦法大聲說他是綠能其實啊他根本就是垃圾焚化爐你去看看這個排放標準根本就是焚化爐所以我這邊建議"},{"start":17968.627,"end":17992.931,"text":"如果真的要處理的話我建議經濟部撤銷這個再生能源的發電設備許可還有撤銷這個廠商再生發電能源的准購合約這才能夠真正為民眾解決問題不應該當初經濟部下指導期現在把所有要國賠的事情通通推給桃園市政府我覺得這個經濟部是不負責任的"},{"start":17994.446,"end":18021.778,"text":"報告委員這個再生能源是沒有問題的但是他不是綠能對啊我就講重點就不是綠能所以現在民眾就反彈啊當初講SRF聽起來很高科技結果根本就是垃圾焚化爐你看看那個標準燒廢輪胎燒PVC管燒金屬建材物燒出來的東西怎麼可能是綠能所以這部分我今天講的重點真的要處理就像我剛剛講的那兩樣再生能源"},{"start":18022.618,"end":18027.505,"text":"報告委員這個是再生能源沒有錯這是不是綠能就是你剛才所說的不是綠能"},{"start":18039.039,"end":18039.319,"text":"主席"},{"start":18059.275,"end":18059.655,"text":"主席慢慢請部長來請郭部長"},{"start":18099.687,"end":18124.176,"text":"部長好委員好部長昨天賴總統去computex那他說了幾個重點第一個就是屬於台灣自己的資料中心第二個是建制超級電腦來供產官學使用那第三個就是持續培養人才讓台灣成為人工智慧島那這三個都跟經濟部有關聯那請問經濟部要如何來落實人工智慧島的部分"},{"start":18126.815,"end":18143.481,"text":"這個如何落實這個人工智慧我想我們會利用我們臺灣這個AI的優勢也就是說我們臺灣生產這個AI的晶片臺灣也是生產大量的這個AI的伺服器所以未來在AI的應用"},{"start":18145.489,"end":18167.454,"text":"跟AI的訓練上面如果我們可以培養更多的工程師我相信對我們台灣百工百業所有的傳統行業跟製造業大概經過4年以後如果我們能夠培養20萬人的這些工程師深入這一些中小微企業那麼跟製造業大概可以提升50%的這個製造業可以來運用這些AI的這個產品"},{"start":18172.375,"end":18178.728,"text":"原來總統說要請企業做的部分還有說要讓臺灣一百多萬家中小企業人工智慧化"},{"start":18179.517,"end":18201.278,"text":"那之前經濟部有輔導臺灣的中小企業數位化那從數位化才有辦法人工智慧化嘛如果你沒有數位化的話那可能比較的困難那花了大概10多年但是我看到很多中小企業在這個數位化的部分可能還未增完善那現在總統有說出了中小企業人工智慧化的政策的這個方針"},{"start":18203.7,"end":18219.147,"text":"請問經濟部要怎麼樣能夠去輔導尚未數位化的這些中小企業來變成AI化這一部分因為我們昨天才收到這個總統的這樣具體的指示所以我們會在未來的這很快的日子裡面來檢討"},{"start":18221.528,"end":18236.447,"text":"就像委員指教的沒有數位化的部分我要怎麼樣子來引導他已經數位化的我如果快速加上讓他快速的智慧化我想這一部分我們會快速的來討論跟他能夠落實"},{"start":18237.939,"end":18264.01,"text":"謝謝部長我想從基礎做起我為什麼講這個數位化開始才有辦法要AI化我記得在求學的階段我們有一個同事他後來去美國的白宮跟國安會他第一份工作就是數位化去寫信給美國白宮或者是總統的這些書信那為什麼要數位化首先就是過去只是把文字存檔而已他沒有辦法去分析恐怖攻擊或者是裡面含威脅相關資訊的數位"},{"start":18265.811,"end":18291.324,"text":"因為只有說話之後他們才能夠去分析他有沒有實質上面對安全性的危害那中小企業也是一樣我相信在要先把最基礎的事情做好說話本身就是一個比較第一步要做的事情那昨天我們也談到媒體有很多在訪問有關於這個可能在潛伏在我國相關的基礎設施特別是有關於電力的供應的這部分"},{"start":18291.844,"end":18315.567,"text":"我想今天很多幾位立法委員都已經有特別提到關於電力的這個supply的部分供應其實我對於常態性發電量的問題我沒有特別去擔心我比較擔心是有惡意的小規模在破壞我們的電廠跟電網這部分我知道說包含行政院的國土辦公室也好或者是國安局或者是國家勤制單位都有"},{"start":18316.207,"end":18326.412,"text":"可是進一步有業館的臺電、中油還有臺水這些首要的目標我想請問部長你有沒有什麼相關的方式來去確保這些關鍵基礎設施的安全"},{"start":18327.472,"end":18351.841,"text":"我講在治安或者是實際的這個安全的方面呢,經濟部都有一些規範存在,那我們也會持續來督導這些單位部長在鵝美的,就是新竹鵝美這個高壓變電站的時候那之前在520之前有人嘗試要去破壞相關的這一個部分那之前在桃園機場也有工人"},{"start":18352.961,"end":18376.476,"text":"務檢電纜﹚"},{"start":18376.718,"end":18402.368,"text":"有嫌疑人等或者是沒有被授權的人出現在那個場域有些動作就會被偵測到所以投資設備甚至是比部署人力會來得更有效率我想請問部長未來有沒有方法或者是有沒有採取相關的措施在增強相關的科技設備在做監測跟確保不會有未經授權的人士出現在不該出現的地方"},{"start":18402.808,"end":18406.051,"text":"希望部長可以把所有你們業館的從台電中油和台水我們關鍵基礎建設關鍵基礎設備所有需要"},{"start":18427.227,"end":18451.246,"text":"部署相關設備的地方全部統整並且同時把這些相關資訊給我們的國安單位知道那我前幾天看到內政部好像說會派警力或者甚至是國防部說會派憲兵來做一些相關基礎建設的部署我覺得這當然是很好但是除了人力的部署之外我想經濟部本身在設備的投資上面可以"},{"start":18452.29,"end":18463.138,"text":"全方位的因為有些時候人力還是有他不足之處來去做好這些基礎設施的保障昨天有國民黨的國會議員有提到"},{"start":18464.076,"end":18490.273,"text":"他把這些都歸類為說甚至比較諷刺的說法歸類成這些其他的義務入侵到我們的電網就算是這樣也好我不管是人為非人為的是不可抗力的相關的設備投資都麻煩部長能夠事先因應來確保說我們未來不會三不五時都遇到這樣的挑戰謝謝"},{"start":18494.96,"end":18500.904,"text":"李博義委員．莊瑞雄委員．所提書面質詢列入紀錄．刊登公報．書面質詢和未及答覆的部分．請相關單位於一週內．以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":18515.274,"end":18527.5,"text":"在過幾天下禮拜一就是一年一度的端午佳節我在這裡提前預祝大家以及全國的鄉親端午節闔家平安快樂謝謝那我們今天的會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝"},{"start":18571.734,"end":18572.735,"text":"主席"},{"start":18597.094,"end":18597.254,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":18618.457,"end":18618.717,"text":"主席響鐘"}]}},{"id":"15981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15981","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d558f108d180b0e1b247fba16bfc1c1c43be8d109af184be402bb03e3f13b43b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧(AI)推動現況與未來方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-05T08:30:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:27:00+08:00","duration":14172,"影片長度":"03:56:12","委員發言時間":"08:30:48 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環境部"},{"start":1801.759,"end":1820.136,"text":"繼後便簽署組長溫玉勇主席科教級委員致恩。5月27日報告時響應宣讀上次會議事錄決定事務確定。而教育部部長鄭英耀練習報告又概況並備質詢。本議程由委員萬美琳等24人提出質詢。軍醫教育部部長鄭英耀及相關人員及習達夫說明"},{"start":1820.656,"end":1837.767,"text":"另由委員牛許廷等二人提出書面質詢．決定一報告及詢答完畢．二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報．三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．請相關機關監訴以書面答覆．通過臨時提案六項．5月29日報告事項．"},{"start":1838.527,"end":1859.74,"text":"核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部次長列席就展望全球核能發電趨勢我國核電廠研議推動現況暨發展新型核能成為永續能源次規劃進行專題報告．並備質詢本日已曾由委員洪孟凱等18人提出質詢軍機核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽及經濟部常務次長林全能"},{"start":1860.16,"end":1876.568,"text":"及相關人員及答覆說明．並由吳委員吳春成等三人提出書面質詢．決定一報告及詢答完畢．二委員首提書面質詢或相關資料6日進入並刊登公報．三隊委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．及相關機關技術與書面答覆宣布完畢"},{"start":1880.083,"end":1904.249,"text":"在場委員由於未達議決人數3人所以我們議事路暫不確定那今天的議程是邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就人工智慧、AI推動現況與未來方向進行專題報告並備質詢首先我們來介紹我們在場的委員洪孟楷委員"},{"start":1908.635,"end":1936.815,"text":"讓我們來介紹我們與會的官員我們國科會主委吳誠文吳主委國科會副主任委員陳秉宇陳副主委還有我們數位發展部的常務次長葉寧葉次長還有數位發展部數位產業署的副署長林俊秀林副署長好謝謝"},{"start":1942.072,"end":1948.554,"text":"我們首先就來請國科會的吳主任委員進行報告報告時間8分鐘主席、各位委員、各位先進大家早安"},{"start":1969.844,"end":1987.223,"text":"今天成門大院教育及文化委員會安排國科會就人工智慧、AI推動現況與未來發展方向進行報告感謝各位委員關注AI科技發展也請各位委員會議指導"},{"start":1990.973,"end":2011.892,"text":"自2022年CHAT-GPT發布以來AI已成為新一波工業革命的重要引擎國際大廠如Google、Meta、OpenAI均推出多模態AI模型相關應用服務也推陳出新帶來廣泛且巨大的影響同時"},{"start":2014.571,"end":2034.714,"text":"各國依其獨特、歷史文化、社會習性等．紛紛推動AI基礎設施建置．以確保各自的數位主權．除投入運算資源外．也致力於資料演算法的透明與可用性．"},{"start":2037.589,"end":2053.734,"text":"並打造完善的AI法治環境．以因應AI對社會經濟帶來的影響．為全面推動AI普及與產業升級．行政院於2023年合併台灣AI行動計畫2.0．"},{"start":2058.837,"end":2084.866,"text":"主軸重點包括優化AI人才培育及就業培訓深耕AI核心技術加速相關產業發展完善運作環境促進資料流通及法治建構提升國際影響力拓展AI國際合作回應人文社會議題延期AI影響及解決方案"},{"start":2085.95,"end":2100.375,"text":"另外為即時運營快速興起的深層式AI本會推動深層式AI兌換引擎及精創台灣方案結合深層式AI與我國晶片製造優勢帶動全產業創新轉型接下來報告本會近期AI推動重點"},{"start":2116.994,"end":2134.565,"text":"首先本會自去年4月啟動TATE計畫為開發符合台灣文化價值觀的大型語言模型TATE以繁體中文及在地內容進行基本的訓練"},{"start":2136.36,"end":2150.966,"text":"今年4月15日已公開釋出商用版及學員版兩款模型均表現優異。4月29日再發布升級版模型以快速因應外界期待。"},{"start":2152.031,"end":2172.907,"text":"在TED開發過程中持續與產學研團隊發展多元應用．包括農業知識檢索系統、神農TED、中小學生台語教學等共7個領域．該模型的釋出有助促進國內生成式AI發展．"},{"start":2174.964,"end":2200.87,"text":"對技術能量者可藉維調或檢索增強生成技術開發符合其需求的服務在技術能量不足的使用者方面可以選用我們產業界系統整合業者以TED打造的解決方案來協助使TED成為台灣指標性的基礎模型"},{"start":2202.062,"end":2226.722,"text":"未來將持續精進這個模型．催生多元落地的創新應用第二,擴建AI算力超級電腦為稱成是AI開發不可或缺的關鍵資源為迎接AI等新興科技導引產業革命性創新本會分期佈建算力資源"},{"start":2228.632,"end":2234.406,"text":"我們打算由目前台灣三二號九個PetaFlops的算力逐步發展"},{"start":2235.716,"end":2256.673,"text":"預計在2028年完成200個Petaflops以上的這個算力並致力與產官學員合作以具規模運算資源提供產學員完善AI模型開發環境加速AI開發與應用提升我國整體經濟發展動能第三"},{"start":2264.878,"end":2279.047,"text":"推動AI科研本會從科研人才治理三大面向聚焦國際優勢AI核心能力強化台灣在全球AI發展關鍵地位"},{"start":2280.263,"end":2298.191,"text":"對外在本會與美國、德國、法國等AI先進國家的科技合作協議框架下持續補助雙邊研究、人才交流舉辦聯合研討會等對內補助33個學院機構共200多位的學者致力開發AI前端技術並應用半導體與製造"},{"start":2312.249,"end":2330.255,"text":"醫療與健康、環境、智慧程式與服務等全球關注且台灣具優勢之重大議題提升AI技術能量及應用擴散最後是完備AI法制"},{"start":2331.212,"end":2350.593,"text":"行政院於112年4月設立數位政策法治協調專案會議由三位政委共同主持跨部會會診延期協調處理數位法治議題其中AI法治議題分組由本會主責"},{"start":2351.554,"end":2359.93,"text":"至今陸續由本會、經管會、交通部、數位發展部就其業管範圍提出法規條式規劃並釋出公部門指引"},{"start":2364.793,"end":2391.341,"text":"目前本會正在規劃AI基本法作為我國AI發展的基本行政方針以鼓勵各行各業安全應用AI為目的強化人類自主維護隱私與制裁權透明不歧視等原則本會將發揮跨部會、跨領域的協調角色充分溝通協調我國產業與社會需求"},{"start":2394.397,"end":2417.672,"text":"配合行政院數位政策法制協調專案會議引領各部會推動AI發展所必要的促進措施及法規修正期望在今年10月底前提出草案加速營造友善AI發展及民眾可信賴之AI發展環境未來本會將透過台灣AI行動計畫2.0與精創台灣方案協作"},{"start":2422.775,"end":2444.205,"text":"結合生成式AI與晶片技術．帶動產業創新升級．並運用我國半導體優勢以民生應用為導向．激發百工百業創新動能．構建台灣科技實力以上報告謝謝委員聆聽敬祝各位委員健康平安萬事如意"},{"start":2448.663,"end":2451.428,"text":"好 謝謝吳主委的口頭報告那我們接下來請數位發展部葉次長進行報告報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2462.912,"end":2485.485,"text":"主席、各位委員今天非常榮幸數位發展部應邀到委員會來這邊針對人工智慧AI的推動現況未來方向進行專題報告請各位委員不吝指教目前AI的發展是已經從早期的演算法到現在的大型語言模型的生成式AI同時會特別著重AI治理數位發展部是依循著台灣AI行動計畫2.0以及晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案等國家政策以及涵蓋"},{"start":2490.168,"end":2504.405,"text":"AI的五大信賴產業的發展以AI產業化跟產業AI化為目標持續地來推動AI應用的發展與管理並打造AI的生態系我們的推動策略可以分為兩個部分第一個部分是AI產業化與產業AI化"},{"start":2506.227,"end":2521.967,"text":"根據台灣AI行動方案的2.0與AI來帶動產業的轉型分級協助增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的新銳本部將會從人才培育、技術深耕、產業發展及評測等四項措施落實AI產業化及產業AI化"},{"start":2523.829,"end":2544.4,"text":"第二個策略是生成式AI的應用與發展。我們將會以軟體基盤化、應用規模化、生態商業化、合作、國際化等四大策略協助各行各業來導入AI並強化資輔以新創業者、開發AI能力、提升產業競爭力以及軟硬整合的服務能量。"},{"start":2545.39,"end":2569.456,"text":"具體的推動措施可以分為幾個方面以現況來講第一部分是AI的人才培育除了培育AI的應用成人才之外本部會跟國際的大廠合作向下扎根在高中值開設AI的課程更重要的是在企業培訓單位的合作之下開設符合產業需求的課程針對企業實際的問題痛點專案產生實作的AI解題方案"},{"start":2574.597,"end":2598.539,"text":"可以同時達到培育人才同時又能夠促進產業發展的雙重效果。第二個部分是AI的技術工具首先第一個是AI的算力的資源分享我們會建置AI的算力池提供產業高速而且可靠的GPU算力平台環境規劃是在今年的7月開始提供給資服業者來申請使用"},{"start":2599.119,"end":2620.025,"text":"希望可以降低業者在生成式AI以及大型運算模型上的開發成本提升國內AI模型的開發能力第二我們也會開發易於上手的AI工具推膽AI應用實際上是需要非常大的資源以及實踐的投入包括資料收集模型的建立跟應用場景等等那對中小企業來講"},{"start":2621.105,"end":2644.99,"text":"通常會面臨缺資料也缺人力缺資金的問題會不利於AI的普及應用因此本部會投入開發一站式的軟體系統提供企業可以在少量的資料狀況之下也可以發展出AI的解決方案幫助企業節省大量人力時間也降低企業應用AI的門檻快速導入AI的應用第三個部分是AI的應用擴展"},{"start":2646.69,"end":2671.226,"text":"第一個措施是輔導及補助產業AI的應用。我們會成立產業輔導服務團,領選工協會成立產業推動小組,同時推動AI軟硬整合的解決方案,媒合資服業者跟各行各業導入AI技術,同時會進行場域的實證的應用,加速它的落地。第二,"},{"start":2671.866,"end":2700.295,"text":"DigitalPlus的數位創新補助方案．針對AI相關的應用研發及產業擴散．我們會推動AI領航計畫．同時鼓勵企業投入．不管是機器學習．深度學習或是AI等等．開發人工智慧的創新應用方案．導入AI應用促進產業升級轉型．同時我們也希望由企業自主的提案．加入數位服務創新的補助計畫．鼓勵企業來投入．"},{"start":2701.515,"end":2719.062,"text":"第4個是AI評測依循去年剛才主委有提到的行政院數位政策法制協調專案會議的分工在AI法制議題部分由國科會負責在通用的領域部分會由本部來負責AI的評測本部已經參考國際的標準及產業需求"},{"start":2722.924,"end":2726.966,"text":"建構AI的評測工具．成立AI的評測中心．以及訂定AI評測的草案．將陸續成立驗證機構跟實驗室．並針對大型語言模型．包括TEDS．評測項目會涵蓋準確可靠隱私資安等等項目．來完善AI的評測．"},{"start":2742.091,"end":2758.822,"text":"未來的推動措施包括幾個方面第一個方面是生成式AI的應用發展我們會在國科會支持之下針對軟體基盤化、應用規模化、生態商業化及合作國際化等等策略來對應生成式AI的相關的發展"},{"start":2760.323,"end":2780.697,"text":"軟體及基盤化指的是說﹐我們會橋接軟體及各領域的業者﹐同時集結同樣領域的設計經驗的know-how﹐運用國內外的大型元模型的生成式AI﹐協助資服業者開發適用於各行業的AI工具﹐來提升資服產業生成式AI的發展能量﹐"},{"start":2781.477,"end":2805.174,"text":"第二是應用規模化．我們會攜手產業的工協會．挖掘企業痛點跟產業需求．同時為媒合資服業者及新創業者生成是AI的能量．以共同培育產業應用的人才．同時我們會舉辦初解體的競賽機制與落地應用試煉等等推動方案．"},{"start":2806.134,"end":2819.641,"text":"進而研提產業生成式AI應用解決方案跟發展藍圖協助我們產業在生成式AI上面進行數位轉型第三個部分是生態的商業化我們會從培育產業的"},{"start":2821.222,"end":2841.974,"text":"生成式AI應用人才開始．也包括剛剛所提到的出解題競賽及落地應用等等．在這些推動之後．我們會將生成式AI及軟硬整合的解決方案．落地應用於場域．建構成示範的模式．擴散到其他場業商轉推廣．來促進生成式AI生態系的商業化"},{"start":2843.12,"end":2868.569,"text":"第四是合作的國際化．我們會透過與國際大廠的合作．與串聯國際大廠平臺資源跟新興的開發工具．也提升生成是AI開發者的技術能量．並舉辦AI臺灣等等大型的展會．來建立我國跟國際交流合作機會．提升我國AI產業應用的曝光度．協助我們的AI產業成果能夠拓展到海外市場．創造AI產業的產值跟商機"},{"start":2874.95,"end":2890.859,"text":"第二大部分,我們會規劃成立AI生態園區。那AI生態園區的概念,它重點是創建AI的生態系。對於產業而言,實體落地多半是因為市場跟顧客需求的市場導向。例如國外的"},{"start":2891.82,"end":2892.06,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2916.767,"end":2931.12,"text":"不管是資料也好或是剛才所提到的AI應用工具等等也好來促進相關產業的生態的成型生態系的成型那具體的內容以及操作方式我們現在還在跟國家發展委員會來做進一步的討論來定案"},{"start":2933.37,"end":2956.159,"text":"人工智慧發展已經是我國重點發展的這個產業的範疇之一我們現在在半導體跟晶片硬體設備已經造就了AI強大的發展那我本部將會依循我國AI的重大政策強化在軟體應用方面的投入並協助AI的相關產業發展以及我國各行各業的這個AI推動轉型"},{"start":2957.319,"end":2970.183,"text":"在另外一方面在發展AI應用及應用發展的同時也要兼顧可信任的AI發展我們現在輔導產業導入AI的具體個案多半是商業應用等低風險產業"},{"start":2972.344,"end":2994.426,"text":"在這個情況下我們會兼顧產業發展原則之下建構AI評測機構與指引發展評測工具希望也在這個科會所推動的AI基本法框架下跟各目的事業主管機關訂定個別理念應用AI的規範與指引等跨部會的合作共同建構可信任的AI發展環境以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3001.547,"end":3012.47,"text":"好 謝謝葉次長的口頭報告那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10時30分那委員如果有臨時提案也請於上午10時30分前提出並與本會委員吳春成委員質詢結束後及"},{"start":3029.295,"end":3040.284,"text":"進行處理。處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場,原例不予處理。好,我們首先就請發言登記第一位,彭孟楷委員質詢。主席謝謝,麻煩請吳主委跟次長。葉次長。好,有請吳主委葉次長。"},{"start":3057.495,"end":3084.077,"text":"主委好 主委 次長剛剛本席來聆聽兩位對於這個AI產業的發展跟方向那我想這是一個非常大的命題 所以今天有幾個部分一定要先跟大家來就教我先請教 看到AI啦 台灣最近有這個AI樂 那我們也看到這個輝達的執行長黃仁勳他也在台大有發表專題演講 科技巨頭都到 經濟部長、速發部長也有到場 阿主委你怎麼沒有到"},{"start":3085.734,"end":3107.214,"text":"我因為會議排得滿滿的禮拜天晚上也有會議是是好那你也有全程觀看了對不對我有觀看也有了解他的一些趨勢跟方向我想共同大家都聚焦在這個項目上其中不管是數法部或是國科會都有講到人才的部分那現在本席也看到"},{"start":3108.115,"end":3135.052,"text":"主委唸的這個台大電機系一系翻紅很多人說氣醫科要唸電機啊光台中一中今年上台大電機就比以往的人才暴增了三倍那代表是說現在大家都有看到這個但是本席還是要請教因為我們在教育文化委員會要來了解是說到底我們對於未來假設五年內評估AI這個產業我們需要多少人才有沒有說一個估算過"},{"start":3137.859,"end":3157.538,"text":"AI的產業當然有非常多元的人才的需求當然核心的人才就是在發展AI的基本的理論演算法以及當它要實現的時候背後的半導體硬體架構等等這些都含在裡面"},{"start":3158.759,"end":3182.675,"text":"我想電機系有涵蓋這些範圍是沒錯但是還有第二個非常重要的人才需求是各行各業在使用AI的時候你必須要去熟悉然後了解怎麼去應用這些AI的工具讓我們在各行各業的發展會更有效率會更省人力表現會更好所以有需求多少"},{"start":3184.167,"end":3206.572,"text":"需求是無止境的啊因為我們現在AI的發展只有受限於我們的人類我們地球的資源主委本席跟著您的話您剛講是說AI我們看到你這兩個報導都講是說人才培育很重要本席認同啊但你總是要有一個方向譬如說我們要多少五年內要培育多少的人才那是不是能夠滿足現在一個現況嗎"},{"start":3209.332,"end":3234.585,"text":"即便是現在這個行業非常夯也不可能全部人全都投入到這個行業裡面所以說本席剛才講是說我認同現在所有學校也都需要導入AI的相關的教學那但是到底我們需求有多少我們的需求是如果是在AI的這個基礎的研究我們當然也是受限於現在我們各大學的招生有沒有去評估過啦"},{"start":3237.163,"end":3254.771,"text":"現在招生人數就是我們的人數但是運用的這個領域是沒有限制的主委我們拉回來好不好今天在教育及文化委員會第一我們看任何的問題一定是看到這個產業五年內有什麼樣的狀況缺口有多少"},{"start":3255.311,"end":3269.107,"text":"我們現在也包括說有17所大專業校也都希望有合作夥伴跟這個黃仁勳然後也很多的學校開始開班授課但是這5年我為什麼會講5年就是大學從畢業"},{"start":3270.608,"end":3297.831,"text":"從現在大一新生一直到大四說不定再加入在研究所的部分這五年內可能有產出多少人力來滿足這個缺口那如果說不夠的地方是不是也應該找教育部是不是速發部這邊來去討論是不是有一些學校能夠增設科系還是怎麼樣的一個管理而不是說跟我講說雙手一攤講說有啊就學校現在有在生產啊反正有畢業生啊畢業生來之後就可以滿足那缺口有沒有滿足"},{"start":3299.572,"end":3315.859,"text":"絕口永遠沒有辦法滿足我跟委員報告那永遠沒有辦法 那我們解決辦法是什麼我們就是盡力做阿事實就是如此主委 那這樣子 抱歉我們受限於這個議長我今天這樣子 主委你這答案我真的沒有辦法接受欸"},{"start":3317.284,"end":3344.182,"text":"我是現在我很心平氣和在跟大家請教因為這個AI的議題會是我們未來5年10年所有人都講是說這很重要那如果說我們國科會主委是這個態度我們就盡力做啊我沒有辦法知道我有多少需求啊那這樣大家都不用談了你的計畫出來要立法院來通過應該要有目標、計期程、方向、預計培養多少人才"},{"start":3345.143,"end":3364.291,"text":"甚至本席還要再討論是說學校端我現在看到都屬於學校端的部分那有沒有一般我們已經畢業了社會新鮮人我可能之前我沒有來不及學習到AI但是我現在對於說這樣的一個行業我覺得說有興趣我也希望能夠二度就業轉職我們有沒有相關的計畫去培育人才來去做轉變"},{"start":3369.246,"end":3379.043,"text":"有報告委員那這樣子會有多少人?我們的計畫是什麼?我們的計畫依照經費編列大概4到5千人但是這個是絕對沒有辦法"},{"start":3381.84,"end":3382.04,"text":"您的計畫在哪邊?"},{"start":3405.947,"end":3407.408,"text":"整合的單位是誰?是文國科會?若是科技預算的部分會是"},{"start":3434.878,"end":3438.74,"text":"請問您是?我們科技辦的執密。我不客氣地講,執密你了解的業務都比我們主委來得清楚。謝謝。"},{"start":3456.38,"end":3469.702,"text":"所以本席再來講說實在話我今天其實感到非常遺憾竟然我們是這樣子的一個質詢接下來的這個計畫是不是方便再給本席辦公室一份好不好"},{"start":3475.772,"end":3493.767,"text":"主委我想請教賴金德總統去年競選的時候曾經在新北有提到123的政見不知道您是否了解其中有一個就是針對淡海科學城希望能夠把淡海新市鎮二期的部分土地做開發那這個案件現在是中央主導目前"},{"start":3497.156,"end":3506.936,"text":"經濟部說是跟國科會經濟部有在評估科學園區跟產業園區的可行性現在進度如何?抱歉 這個我還不清楚"},{"start":3508.945,"end":3509.105,"text":"請出場說明"},{"start":3538.004,"end":3559.805,"text":"其實從2020年的時候我們就在講新北淡海新市鎮二期現在有總共差不多135公頃的土地而且它對於2025年淡江大橋完工之後的交通淡海新市鎮來淡通過淡江大橋來巴黎直接105市道到不管是到台北港能夠直接貨運出去或者是說到桃園機場"},{"start":3560.706,"end":3572.26,"text":"也只要短短半個小時的時間所以我們一直在想是說其實這個地方對於不管是產業研究或科技研究都很有幫助但因為主要都是這個是一二期這個是內政部在做主導的這個開發計畫那內政部現在找你說找"},{"start":3577.506,"end":3599.686,"text":"國科會找經濟部那希望是說能夠有明確的一個定位嗎是因為那個剛剛這樣委員提到他的交通位置很重要那未來產業的發展跟新北整個發展是息息相關的所以目前開過很多次會在討論未來產業的定位跟什麼樣的形態開發對這個地方發展是最好的那目前我們有持續在開會討論那我們自己國科會有沒有想法"},{"start":3600.592,"end":3624.569,"text":"因為一樣土地在那邊定位在那邊如果說我們也認為說淡海新市鎮那個地方對於我們整體不管是資源水的部分土地的部分人才的部分都是有所幫助的那我們國科會是不是尤其現在有想就是說中央希望能夠朝綠能跟高科技製造業的方向來進行國科會有沒有想法或是能不能支持"},{"start":3628.004,"end":3643.484,"text":"我必須要回去瞭解一下,國會的想法當然就是...什麼時候可以瞭解?主委給你一個禮拜時間瞭解可以嗎?你給我一個禮拜我就用一個禮拜的這個程度瞭解,你給我一個月我會...那你要多久時間來瞭解?一個月啦,給我一個月啦"},{"start":3644.737,"end":3645.378,"text":"一個月的時間"},{"start":3661.107,"end":3686.713,"text":"一個月的時間你可以給我們地方這是對於地方政府來講或是我們當地的民眾以及整體台灣的產業都是非常有幫助的我了解我們在整個國家各個縣市都需要發展自己特色的產業好 一個月給我們本席及教育文化委員會書面報告可以嗎是 可以好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝洪孟楷委員"},{"start":3690.981,"end":3691.041,"text":"請吳主委"},{"start":3718.127,"end":3737.521,"text":"主委早安委員早主委我想這兩天的新聞你都非常了解但我想問一下剛剛莫凱委員已經問了您還沒有跟黃仁勳碰面那後續會有碰面的計畫嗎因為國科會其實深負責推動台灣AI產業這件事情是非常非常非常重要政策地位那目前國科會有任何規劃嗎"},{"start":3739.498,"end":3754.747,"text":"我沒有跟黃�勳先生碰過面因為他是在美光燈下所有的人都在追求的明星我沒有機會跟他碰面但是Amedia的主要的主管在台灣"},{"start":3755.928,"end":3756.609,"text":"主委您對這件事情有什麼看法?"},{"start":3784.4,"end":3798.94,"text":"我感覺非常光榮對對那你有去了解實務上是即將跟NVIDIA或者是在這個AI產業鏈當中南台科大或是其他大學會扮演什麼樣的角色那國科會在相關議題上又會扮演什麼樣的角色積極跟教育部合作或者是跨部會的討論"},{"start":3800.589,"end":3826.971,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想NVIDIA大家也知道他已經宣布在台灣還要再投資算力甚至會可能會捐贈一部分的算力給我們的學術界所以我們會積極來協助NVIDIA跟我們學術界所有的學校其實也不只是列在這個他投影片上面的啦因為大部分的學校都有學者在使用NVIDIA的這個設備"},{"start":3828.712,"end":3843.946,"text":"在進行相關的不管是AI的研究或它的應用的研究現在都有所以我們會公平的去支持我們的學界積極的來跟NVIDIA合作利用它未來再建設更多的酸液來協助我們的這個科研的發展"},{"start":3844.226,"end":3859.669,"text":"好,到目前為止依然讓人放心也就是說主委我們一般人每光燈確實就看到這14所大學或是16所可是主委你剛剛講到一個非常重要的事情其他的大學有相關算力的需求或者是學術研發的需求國科會當然"},{"start":3860.51,"end":3880.525,"text":"我們同樣都會支持是太好了那我們來看一下你又講到算力了黃仁勳之前呢在相關的訪談上在一個國外的媒體訪談上他提到每個國家我想就不再多念了他提到AI主權但是他在談一件事情也就是他這一次來台灣大力促進的一件事情就是每個國家都需要他們自己的AI工廠瓜胡講的是算力"},{"start":3881.065,"end":3902.212,"text":"算力這件事情其實我覺得是整個AI產業當中最大最大目前我自己盤點完各部會的工作狀態之後我覺得沒有被好好照顧到怎麼說我們來看一下目前從數法部你們跟我們的資料裡面提到你們要建置AI算力池所以數法部你們確實有想到算力這件事情國科會一樣講到算力"},{"start":3904.173,"end":3909.437,"text":"我們來看一下經濟部如同你剛說的他們建了台北ONE已經說要捐贈25%的算力給台灣的中小企業透過經濟部的角度所以已經有三個部會在談算力囉看起來已經有三個部會要投入算力的資源"},{"start":3920.586,"end":3937.559,"text":"除了公部門的資源來我們來看一下民間資源正位集團相關的新聞稿說在年底這個跟日本幼必達合資一樣要蓋一個算力中心前兩天黃仁勳來之後高雄積極爭取鴻海揮打要不要去高雄建制算力中心"},{"start":3938.28,"end":3952.476,"text":"主委有沒有發現民間的力量公部門的力量大家都要投資算力中心我當然現在不會烏鴉嘴的說有沒有可能有一天算力中心變文字館我不知道可是我擔心的是一旦算力及國力"},{"start":3953.257,"end":3961.583,"text":"那我們如何我們公部門政府資源如何看待算力及國力這件事情到底是國科會來主導還是經濟部還是數法部我們來看一下目前我很好奇問國科會你們有沒有認真盤點過往下後續開始規劃有哪些單位有多少單位他們需要算力而這些算力又會被放在哪些層面是產業開發"},{"start":3975.754,"end":3976.034,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":4005.674,"end":4007.095,"text":"國科會負責政府投資建置的算力中心我們會引導民間投資"},{"start":4034.815,"end":4063.247,"text":"引導民間投資可是看起來民間投資如果補助是來自經濟部嘛像我剛剛說的那個鴻海前一個台北灣經濟部就補助了百分之多少的一個比例的金額去投資揮打蓋那個台北灣那個算力中心那如果經濟部負責投資新建廠跟相關的補助那國科會如何引導那如果國科會如何協助學術端他們有相關算力的需求國科會如何協助或者是數發部這邊如何協助因為我覺得在整體的分工看起來"},{"start":4063.727,"end":4064.307,"text":"委員講得非常的好"},{"start":4080.197,"end":4103.893,"text":"國科會一定要結合教育部因為國科會跟教育部是面對我們全國的大學的人力所以在研發在應用發展如果沒有人力你建再多的超級電腦資料中心都沒有用一定要有人力去應用這樣才會展現出國力出來這個我把它定位學術研究的發展學術研究還有應用研究都要做"},{"start":4104.053,"end":4108.495,"text":"學術研究與應用研究在學術界做出來的成果一定要結合到產業,才有辦法落地所以我們會資助經濟部編列相關預算來協助產業能夠接受這些技術把應用把它拓展到各行各業"},{"start":4133.083,"end":4157.823,"text":"聽起來主委您非常有概念也就是您的角色必須要主動發起跨部會的討論對不對好太好了我聽到這個承諾我們辦公室會持續追蹤因為算力這件事情它真的不能就只是放著或是告訴我們買了多少晶片用了多少電我覺得國人最後更關注或者是可能會產生相對剝奪感就是算力這件事情所以我辦公室積極的建議未來針對算力的需求國科會必須要主動盤點剛剛主委您也說了可是盤點必須要系統化科學化的方法"},{"start":4162.447,"end":4189.803,"text":"還有在不同的產業不同的學術研究不同的產業應用研究最後一個我要先提醒目前台灣由公部門投資興建的算力中心相關的應用是不是可以優先滿足台灣國內學術研究跟產業發展為主而不要有變相補貼業者轉賣獲取利益剛剛主委你說了你會跟經濟部跨部會討論這個部分我要拜託主委先行幫忙注意這件事情"},{"start":4190.043,"end":4207.572,"text":"我非常同意委員,我會努力來做這件事好,那我們辦公室會持續追蹤那剛剛洪孟凱委員有一件事情說一個禮拜你說太趕目前這個相關的規劃跟研議我說一個月時間上是可行的嗎?你看一下頭影片我寫很多事情齁好,這個要兩個月好,沒問題"},{"start":4209.613,"end":4227.14,"text":"所以我們幾乎可以認識一件很重要的事情就是在剛剛討論完之後就是算力這件事情不管是學術研究相關盤點後續的規劃您會協同速發部教育部經濟部跟其他相關部會由您國科會來開啟主動相關討論對嗎"},{"start":4230.241,"end":4254.974,"text":"對好謝謝主委謝謝你勇於認識那我們來看一個卓院長說了要以臺灣文化為基底做臺灣自己的語言模型這件事情我們完全認同在多年前臺灣有非常多專家學者也已經提出這個建議目前我們在國科會你們的TIDE模型裡面看到你們用了這些資料合作單位有公部門的也有私部門的像金周刊是私部門公部門很多我不再贅述還有這麼多那我要問一下"},{"start":4256.523,"end":4277.903,"text":"還有很多所謂民間資源主委你有沒有看過這個在北港武德宮財神開祭祖廟他們買了一台人工智慧機器你有沒有看過這個新聞我跟你說他們買來做什麼有人就問說以後是要問神還是要問AI他說沒有啦我們要拿來解經還要解卵文那意思就是說有很多民間衣錦委員笑了這樣"},{"start":4278.704,"end":4299.941,"text":"解禁就是他們有讀那個吳德公有推廣一個叫財神經吳德真經讀起來很能懂他們讓AI去幫忙翻譯解釋給一般人聽還有那個卵文大家知道什麼是卵文他說一般人寫一寫一般人看不懂他們很多師兄師姐解釋花很多力氣他們發現導入AI解讀很有幫助這個是非常台灣在地的文化"},{"start":4301.183,"end":4327.508,"text":"如果我們要發展台灣自己具有在地文化人文關懷精神那這個只是我舉一個例子我沒有真的要叫主委去做這件事情因為您剛剛的這個網頁上放了這些很正式的很官方的資料這個大家完全都可以理解可是我必須要一個更民間的文化來跟主委分享我們如何在台灣這個TED模型當中持續引入台灣本地的關懷跟本地的文化這件事情您是否認同認同"},{"start":4329.048,"end":4329.669,"text":"資料合作單位目前沒有策展概念公務門可以先撈過來"},{"start":4348.988,"end":4372.41,"text":"合作單位可以談的先談過來可是這些資料的用法它到底是在pre-trend階段來用還是SFT階段來用我覺得主委我不知道目前您的幕僚嗎跟你報告目前這些資料的使用還有如果在你們國科會的報告裡面你們提到要進入更專門領域的語言模型對嗎也就是例如說法律經濟或者是教育學"},{"start":4372.79,"end":4398.558,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":4398.752,"end":4412.426,"text":"目前的狀況是因為我們第一年是我們要先把沒有那個版權爭議的我們都先抓過來先抓過來對然後維護隱私權等等不能侵犯是這些資料我們先做但是未來我們接下來會進入推廣的階段"},{"start":4414.168,"end":4434.579,"text":"推廣階段我們就會廣泛的在各行各業各個應用領域我們會有更多的訓練資料就會進來做各個別的不同的專業用途所以委員講的是非常對這個會非常非常花時間而且也很需要專業的人力來協助所以我才會寫SFT Data這件事情我相信主委你一定非常清楚所以我積極的建議"},{"start":4435.68,"end":4449.786,"text":"目前在選定資料提供的合作單位拜託有更全面的規劃不管是專業性的或是通用性的甚至在國科會的報告裡面你們自己提到還要做多模態AI這件事情他非常非常持資料量對嗎?"},{"start":4450.706,"end":4474.514,"text":"好那這件事情我們如何採用本地的資料有效迅速而且可信度高這件事情我相信是重要還有相關的授權法規但聽起來主委您已經知道了相關智慧產權的授權相關的權益還有跟各個專業領域合作因為國科會絕對可以找到非常多專業的學術單位積極的願意提供資料為進我們的目前這個台灣Data這個模型當中對嗎是"},{"start":4475.854,"end":4493.525,"text":"好,但是必須要積極的規劃而不是給資料採集小組他們只是隨機的去做最後拜託資料品質的確保這件事情我們目前有沒有投入資源去規劃有資料品質我們非常注重我們不會用假資料那相關的資源跟規劃是什麼如何再一次確保那個資料品質欸這個我們是透過瑞格嗎還是"},{"start":4498.664,"end":4499.525,"text":"主席吳祖偉及林次長"},{"start":4526.971,"end":4528.973,"text":"好,有請吳朱偉業次長委員好"},{"start":4537.802,"end":4558.371,"text":"主委好主委我想這個任何的事情一定都是一體兩面的那我們現在AI這麼高速的一個發展誠如上一次吳組委我們在這個質詢的過程當中您有舉了一個例子說就像這個刀可以用來做菜也許也可以做其他的那我們看到其實在這一次我們民進黨政策會的執行長王一川有說他說"},{"start":4559.831,"end":4589.131,"text":"這個可以用GT台的訊號來查看民眾是否有這個足跡堆疊的一個大數據那這個新聞家一出來我想不知道這個主委有沒有follow但是會弄得這個全國人心惶惶大家都很擔心是不是有遭到監控那但是今天要討論的不是這件事情因為本期更加擔心的是如果AI的發展假設被有心人來利用恐怕會侵犯這個個資還有個人的隱私的情況他其實會更加的嚴重這樣的一個說法我的這個看法我不曉得兩位同意嗎"},{"start":4590.532,"end":4597.839,"text":"您知道現在其實已經可以透過AI來監控電腦或者是應用軟體而且可以獲得了個人的資料跟隱私了嗎?主委您的意思是說現在無法透過AI來監控?"},{"start":4615.192,"end":4615.372,"text":"市長市長"},{"start":4623.464,"end":4644.685,"text":"就我的了解就是所謂的個人資料的跟個人資料儲存環境有關那他資訊系統通常會設定一些權限那從我們部的立場來看的話所謂的從資安的角度來看個人資料的儲存跟他的整個沒有我本身問題很簡單阿現在您認為是可以還是不可以就您所知要看他在應用的做得到還是做不到"},{"start":4645.825,"end":4665.299,"text":"如果這個資料庫是開放的 那不用AI也搜尋得到 那如果這個資料有設定良好的儲存權限以及它的這個加密的措施 不見得可以搜尋得到我想兩位一起 根據媒體的報導 我們看到全球有22%的企業是以AI來監控員工的活動數據"},{"start":4666.64,"end":4681.358,"text":"有17%可以監控員工的電腦使用16%則可以記錄員工的電郵所以連全球最大電商亞馬遜、星巴克、達美航空、雀巢等等這些大企業都可以透過AI新創公司來監控員工"},{"start":4683.139,"end":4701.605,"text":"不管是監控他們的動態、聊天記錄或是計算績效等等有不同的一個監控的方向但是雖然AI的新創公司都說它這個分析它是一個匿名的數據但是用以上這樣來看我想主委先請教您一下您認為這樣的監控有沒有侵犯隱私權或是違反個資法"},{"start":4703.599,"end":4706.541,"text":"市長,您的看法呢?就如剛才蘇薇所說的,這其實如果涉及到勞動條件的部分,那這恐怕要看勞動條件法規而定"},{"start":4726.296,"end":4742.685,"text":"所以現在二位的意思是說只要內規有內規這個自己規定我們就可以無上去去監控員工是這樣嗎這個當然是所以要說清楚嘛是雇主跟員工簽訂的所以這個我們應該可以理解"},{"start":4744.086,"end":4757.023,"text":"主委、次長,我想再請教一下所以台灣的企業我們是不是一樣可以在您剛剛所上述的條件之下可以用AI來監控員工這第一個問題第二個部分我們工部門是不是也可以這樣來做用AI來監控我們公務人員的電腦,可以嗎?"},{"start":4759.056,"end":4775.042,"text":"我們首先要說明的就是說剛才這邊所看到的資料所謂的監控或是針對員工的活動都是指他在職場場域使用公用的系統跟電腦那他所從事他職務上的行為並不包括他私人生活在裡面"},{"start":4776.102,"end":4796.948,"text":"市長,我想您剛剛所說的,它是公務上的一個公務使用,然後再來電腦雖然是企業或是公務的一個機關資產,但我們知道其實有很多的網頁或的程式,它其實都是需要去登入一些個人的資料,所以在AI監控員工的電腦,不管您認為這個監控能不能接受,但是它已經是一個全面性的一個蒐集這個數據,"},{"start":4799.15,"end":4812.182,"text":"如果是在一個沒有告知或者同意的情況之下根據我國個人資料保護法的規定其實已經有觸法的疑慮了所以我是想目前你們看到的可能是比較淺層面但是未來發展之後"},{"start":4815.044,"end":4821.011,"text":"會怎樣去在監控上面去觸法的疑慮或者是說將來有視空的狀態我想國科會跟訴發部是不是應該都要就本席今天提醒能夠再回去做一些研究那同時"},{"start":4830.482,"end":4846.765,"text":"我們都在講說有很多地方他其實可能匿名啊都有保護啊可是根據美國紐約大學AI NOW的研究所的報告顯示這個資訊給讓你看一下即使數據是彙整在一起或者是一個匿名的可是在保護的這個隱私上面他們認為仍然是有缺陷的"},{"start":4847.685,"end":4875.119,"text":"在1990年美國人口普查數據做的研究AI只有透過由地區號、出生日期跟性別它就可以辨識出87%的美國人而且歐美企業使用AI監控員工其實也引發了相關對於AI侵犯隱私權的疑慮所以我想這樣的疑慮我們也不能輕忽它也不能太胸有成竹跟自信我們除了擔憂AI會侵害人權之外我們也擔心未來AI技術的"},{"start":4875.879,"end":4877.66,"text":"我們有沒有跟國科會做橫向的一個溝通跟合作?"},{"start":4901.537,"end":4920.204,"text":"我們一直當然都跟國科會保持密切合作首先我們非常同意剛才委員的說法即便企業要對員工的職務上的行為作為有所了解的話他也要完全符合各自法的規定譬如說他必須充分的告知跟同意第二AI剛剛我們所提到的"},{"start":4920.384,"end":4920.864,"text":"吳主委,我想您有說"},{"start":4942.112,"end":4956.047,"text":"您希望在10月就會想辦法把AI基本法草案送進行政院嗎?是上次有講但是我想這個AI不管是在我剛剛本席所講的詐騙上面監控上面甚至於將來有可能侵害到民眾的個資、隱私我想未來只會有更加嚴重的狀況所以針對AI的濫用我想國科會在AI基本法當中"},{"start":4963.015,"end":4975.144,"text":"是不是應該要做一些清楚的歸辦跟納入這一點我想提醒吳主委在這個草案送上來之前我想要強加研究好不好那接下來我再一提一樣是請教一下吳主委我想這個黃仁勛來台這個旋風那當然您還沒跟他見面了也在想辦法應該要跟他見一見"},{"start":4981.93,"end":5000.31,"text":"但是不管是他啦或者是這個超維啦等等都有要在台灣來做更多的一些研發中心的設立啦等等啦那不曉得您認為這一些這一連串這些旋風有助於這個AI的這個科技成果但是有沒有辦法運用在民生讓全民共享"},{"start":5001.209,"end":5028.107,"text":"我們正在努力做這件事剛剛前面委員也有問到這個問題所以除了在算力的建置人才培育上面我們要努力之外我本期有感受到您正在努力但是我們來討論一下上一週本期質詢的時候主委說當前的AI應用仍然有相當的距離那我們要循序漸進那我們看到107年我們推動四年期的台灣AI行動計畫全面要啟動AI產業化您應該清楚對不對"},{"start":5031.329,"end":5045.196,"text":"好那根據112年國家數位發展研究報告指出我國採用智慧居家相關服務有很多的部分很多的項目不升反降如智慧家電109年15%降到112年剩下11%那智慧照顧的部分也從109年的14%往下降一樣來到這個112年13%所以為什麼"},{"start":5054.301,"end":5083.297,"text":"我們看到這個AI科技的應用上面其實越推其實越退步這第一個第二個在一到國科會2022年台灣AI國力的調查那這一點比較重要公部門的AI成熟度的等級竟然只有3.3排名排序在倒數第三所以其實賴總統說要推這個AI之道那我們看到公部門其實還跟不上所以不管是我們剛剛說的應用在民生上面還有公部門看起來我們都沒有跟上腳步這兩個部分能不能請主委回答一下"},{"start":5085.879,"end":5093.678,"text":"我們會努力做就這麼簡單一句話能不能告訴我一下為什麼我們在科技應用上面會越退越退步 什麼原因"},{"start":5095.066,"end":5121.376,"text":"我們整個公部門全國的公務機關的其實那個預算也相當的沉重我們將來希望按照委員的建議我們希望增加能夠推動不是只有產業AI化在政府AI化的部分我們也希望能夠開啟一些新的方案來協助他們"},{"start":5123.357,"end":5138.105,"text":"主席,我想我可以接受因為我看你講這兩題講得真的好勉強喔那這個也不要再為難你喔但是呢我希望會後針對我們剛剛說的AI科技的應用這個不升反降比例不升反降還有我們公部門的這個狀況會後還是給我一個報告好不好"},{"start":5140.466,"end":5146.747,"text":"最後我想行政院在今年推動AI的這個我們剛說的AI行動方案2.0期程是要在2023到2026那這整個願景是希望能夠帶動產業升級還有增進社會福祉讓台灣成為全球AI的一個新銳可是你看我們從107年我們開始推動AI然後我們在所有報告當中看到所有的數據不升反降請問一下這樣的一個計畫我們是要怎麼去"},{"start":5168.173,"end":5171.185,"text":"去增進社會福祉這一條這你能跟我簡單說明一下嗎?"},{"start":5173.431,"end":5198.818,"text":"我們要增進社會福祉的部分就是希望不是只有在AI的我們現在是主要是在AI的硬體的產業不是只有這個產業一直往前衝那我們希望說第一建置台灣自己的算力可以擴展AI在台灣的應用不是只有在幫國外幫國際來貢獻而已所以這個政策我們現在正在扭轉然後慢慢會把"},{"start":5199.558,"end":5216.113,"text":"應用到各行各業的這樣的這個算力以及人力會把它增加主委我想有一些資料您會後提供給我但是本期最後提醒我想科技發展跟科技應用一樣重要我們希望齊同並進一起加油是同意謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝萬美玲委員主委請回好我們接下來請葉淵芝委員"},{"start":5231.732,"end":5234.934,"text":"麻煩請國會主委,謝謝好,有請吳主委委員好主委好,今天主委我們討論AI嘛那因為這個AI旋風當然就是黃榮勳引起嘛不曉得主委,國會最近有沒有跟黃榮勳接觸有沒有我本來沒有跟他接觸過那國會有嘛國會有那大概是怎麼樣的接觸,談什麼議題"},{"start":5255.123,"end":5265.715,"text":"國會當然是透過環環星的公司就是輝達他們在台灣的總經理有拜訪國科會所以我們有討論過那你們討論什麼議題討論輝達在台灣的這個投資可能未來的發展"},{"start":5273.204,"end":5293.872,"text":"他們在台灣的投資他自己有宣布了就是目前的這個研發中心他會再擴大那可能會捐贈部分的這個算力來協助台灣的學術研究那大概可以會在台灣增加多少投資因為我看那個研發中心是會超過243億那其他的投資大概多少"},{"start":5294.212,"end":5323.259,"text":"他現在初步的這個講法是還在規劃當中我們在討論的過程當中本來是要了解到他要捐贈的設備的這個規格但是因為這個發展太快速了所以他們現在還在衡量應該用什麼樣的規格那個時間點也許會落在明年那還要再找適當的地點那現在有幾個地方他在考慮當中目前就是"},{"start":5324.219,"end":5341.842,"text":"對,我也想要問主委這個問題他是說在台灣是第二座研發中心那目前我看新聞是說九個縣市都在爭取包括我所在新北市也有相關的優勢因為惠達有43個供應廉的廠商大概有十幾家都在新北,算是最多"},{"start":5343.344,"end":5357.699,"text":"新竹也說自己很有優勢,它有竹科,也在台積電附近,高雄好像也有優勢主委以國科會的角度,你覺得臺灣這些縣市要爭取第二座研發中心哪一個條件你覺得比較適合?"},{"start":5359.317,"end":5382.746,"text":"賴總統有提過說臺灣均衡發展這個事情所以各縣市在發展特色的產業有足夠的這個基礎的有提供很好的這個條件我們從國會的角度來看我們都會盡量來協助他們所以你沒有特別去判定說誰比較有條件就對了目前還沒有我們會尊重揮打他的選擇因為跟他的這個產業發展也有關係"},{"start":5385.067,"end":5402.166,"text":"主委其實我問這個問題當然另外也是想要表達一件事情就是說我們要發展AI啦我們盡量跟這些比較成就的產業合作會事半功倍啦我現在就想要舉一個我們國科會自己研發的一個所謂的深層式AI叫TAIDE嘛"},{"start":5402.807,"end":5406.089,"text":"為何當時要做本土深層式AI呢?有兩個目的,一個目的是要保護本土文化"},{"start":5420.36,"end":5449.48,"text":"因為覺得現在坊間的或是其他產業所做的深層式AI好像會太多簡體字會侵害到我們的本土的文化價值觀這是其中一個目的第二個目的當然就是發展我們自主人才啦兩個目的但是這個花了3億元做的我們的深層式AI其實有很多問題首先全世界沒有其他國家有以國家為主體發展的深層式AI"},{"start":5450.541,"end":5463.761,"text":"日本也是用CHAP GPT再來就是第二你們現在這個深圳市AI說已經可以跟CHAP GPT 3.5相當"},{"start":5465.663,"end":5487.273,"text":"但CHAP GPT現在已經到4歐了啦已經有點跟不上了那還有一個問題就是它的使用率使用率呢你們國會會有把它放在工程師開放的平台讓人家下載喔大概下載的量是3萬下載不代表它有用喔有的只是下載來看一看才3萬"},{"start":5488.868,"end":5510.669,"text":"那你們內部的使用大概可能國會內部的相關單位用大概才600餘次而已那甚至於連民進黨地方政府台南市市長黃偉哲也是民進黨籍的他都說他要用CHAP GPT深層式AI來做輔助的學習平台結果連他都不捧場"},{"start":5511.67,"end":5535.652,"text":"所以我現在的問題就是我們現在國科會還需要繼續做這件事嗎?因為感覺上它的使用率普及率也很低然後它的所謂的標準現在也不如CHAP GPT那如果標準越差越大的話那當然大家就要用CHAP GPT啊誰要回過頭來用國科會做的東西那現在已經花3億元了"},{"start":5536.551,"end":5560.303,"text":"接下來如果要迎頭趕上其他國家或其他的企業所做的這種AI的話你勢必要花更多的錢所以我不曉得說主委你的態度是怎樣我們其實目標並不是在跟現在通用型的這些AI的model來競爭我們的目標其實是把既有的既有的這些AI的model把它"},{"start":5561.531,"end":5589.599,"text":"在地化的意思就是說我們應用在台灣各行各業的時候那個資料必須要準確要能夠把模型在優化所以在地的訓練可以讓我們在台灣各行各業發展的時候可以做得更有效率然後在運算的時候更省電因為我們不用使用那個非常大型的通用型的模型所以這個工作我們接下來在應用的時候我們會注重"},{"start":5590.379,"end":5606.586,"text":"去把它擴散出去所以目前的展示的幾個項目只是一個例子而已只是一些例子而已我們的目標倒不是要去取代不是取代問題是現在使用率很低嘛而且花了很多錢嘛因為我們剛剛建設完接下來預計還要花多少錢做這個東西接下來我們的計畫現在的規劃還要預計要花多少錢做這個東西"},{"start":5615.743,"end":5643.539,"text":"我想預算的項目我們再確認一次大概3億左右還要再花3億希望達到什麼樣的目標我跟委員解釋一下他們所謂的使用CHAT GPT他們是使用雲端的當我們需要資料是有隱私保護的時候我們是沒有辦法上雲那我們發展台的目的就是希望能夠協助台灣的企業能夠保護他們自己的企業的隱私所以我們協助這個產業來發展"},{"start":5644.94,"end":5647.703,"text":"主委,您知道我們國科會在史丹佛大學有成立一個Taiwan Science and Technologyology Hub?"},{"start":5667.711,"end":5694.703,"text":"花了1億元,數位知道這個事嗎?我知道這個事那你知道這個1億元是用在什麼地方嗎?我看了你們給我的資料,非常的簡單那我就看到你們去參加了兩場的國際研討會然後去參加了一個展覽然後其他的費用就用在史丹佛的這個HUB辦公室以及就是獎學金就花了1億元,一年就花了1億元請問一下這個HUB的效益是什麼啊?"},{"start":5695.646,"end":5717.038,"text":"我可以請我們柯國處長 來羅處長 我有個問題想問羅處長因為我們每一次跟國科會要資料都給的非常簡單 愛寫不寫的 就像我問說這1億元用在哪裡 只有給我三行字 子偉你覺得國科會給委員資料1億元三行字這樣OK嗎"},{"start":5719.83,"end":5746.241,"text":"包括委員,這可能有誤會的地方,到時候我們再進行報告什麼叫到時候,每次都是在委員會那邊敷衍然後處長我給你請教一下當我在要資料的時候你人在台灣嗎?你人在台灣嗎?包括委員因為上一次剛好人在矽谷你人在矽谷,跟你的科長在矽谷嗎?對不對?主教一下處長跟科長在矽谷幹嘛?培前任的國會主委去嘛"},{"start":5747.569,"end":5773.166,"text":"是出席一個那個胡佛研究所的一個有關於研討好那是不是就跟這個Stanford這個什麼Hub有關是有關係有關是不是是請你我今天因為時間不夠請你補一份完整的資料給我到底這一億元是用在哪裡我會很有錢我知道但這錢不是這樣亂花的你這一億元到底有沒有達到效益是另外你這個Hub裡面你有一些獎學金對吧"},{"start":5774.298,"end":5791.426,"text":"獎學金一個人是7萬美金對不對結果這個7萬美金的獎學金的這個學生呢你是補助他到史丹佛做工作對不對做研究有沒有要求他做完研究之後一定要回國服務有沒有"},{"start":5793.052,"end":5819.518,"text":"做完研究的時候學員的話我們會追蹤你會追蹤他不回來沒關係嘛然後我們辦公室跟你要資料就是說到底你的權利義務你補助的獎學金的權利義務是什麼你不給我你說那個合約是學生跟史丹佛簽的所以今天我們給錢給學生學生去跟史丹佛簽約所有權務義務都由史丹佛來決定那我們國會會是很有錢喔"},{"start":5822.469,"end":5847.508,"text":"我們都不能追蹤欸我們都不能夠了解我們納稅人的錢到底花在哪裡欸國會會議是有這麼多錢是這樣子亂用的喔連一個效益評估都講不出來我也非常好奇處長你一直出國你到底效益是什麼啦你的處長跟科長一天到晚出國假國際研討會之名到底做了什麼事你要不要一併把報告給我"},{"start":5849.775,"end":5875.996,"text":"有關於這個預算的使用以及那個成效這一部分我們會後會提供報告供委員參考會後提供報告不要會後又是幾行字我們都拿太多次每次在這邊問會後提供報告幾行字敷衍主委因為您剛來新人新氣象過去我們幾個月跟國會互動就是這樣每次都這樣委員會質詢什麼東西都講不清楚會後提供資料會後提供資料就是三言兩語然後再下一次再來委員會問"},{"start":5877.713,"end":5877.973,"text":"吳佩奕委員"},{"start":5914.029,"end":5933.079,"text":"謝謝主席,我請國科會主委好,有請吳處委,謝謝委員好主委,每次因為委會諮詢時間相對短今天像只有8分鐘有時候委員會需要你們提供資料有沒有委員跟你們要資料不提供的情況?"},{"start":5935.186,"end":5944.975,"text":"應該沒有啦只要跟公務相關的不分黨派我們都要來說明清楚但是非屬公務相關的資料也不要隨便提供這是你們的職責那這個今天我們國科會跟數法部這個AI的專題報告"},{"start":5951.801,"end":5969.38,"text":"其實對我來說非常的重要它不只是一次的專題報告因為AI已經是我們人類發展的未來而台灣是AI發展當中非常重要的國家也就是說我們國科會所負責的人工智慧未來的發展其實是我們台灣未來關鍵的國力是"},{"start":5972.443,"end":5992.13,"text":"所以希望你們要非常慎重來看待那這也是賴清德總統非常重視的政策那這幾天呢我們在台灣正在舉辦Computex所以有很多的大廠可以說是大咖雲集在台灣那我在你們的報告當中也看到了AI行動計畫裡面有提到我們要來提升國際的影響力具體來說我們怎麼樣來提升國際影響力"},{"start":5999.829,"end":6025.466,"text":"大家也看得到我們這次Computex全世界重要的AI相關的國際大廠全部都來了那代表台灣現在是在AI的核心的一個國家我們的AI硬體的製造從半導體一直在到這個雲端資料中心的機房到超級電腦所有這些設備大部分都是台灣製造的所以我們在國際化的這個製造"},{"start":6028.948,"end":6057.018,"text":"產業鏈已經是變成是一個中心點接下來我們要做的事情就是要把這個非常寶貴的這個資源把它擴散到其他的行業擴散到其他行業幫助我們其他的行業各行各業也能夠創造出未來在全球化在應用服務上面各個傳統產業更為升級變成智慧產業變成是一個全球在供應鏈上面更為成熟的一個國家"},{"start":6057.498,"end":6063.499,"text":"是,所以呢我們當然也會希望吸引這些大廠來台灣設廠那最近就是輝達已經表明了要在台灣再設一個擴大的研發中心包括了台北、高雄、台南都在爭取那雖然高雄黃捷委員是我好朋友但是呢我們台北市長蔣萬安市長也開口爭取了那以我們剛剛講到的這個國際影響力其實我認為台北是一個非常適合的城市因為台北當然是我們台灣對國際最重要的一個窗口"},{"start":6086.184,"end":6093.767,"text":"人才也是非常重要的要件黃仁勳執行長也說了要有夜市講到夜市我們台北也不會輸所以我希望國科會的角色你們當然不是第一線每一個縣市都要憑自己的條件努力的去爭取一旦未來如果輝達研發中心在台北落腳我希望我們國科會要給予最大的協助可不可以"},{"start":6111.719,"end":6129.121,"text":"我賴總統有講過就是均衡台灣我們各個縣市我們都會支持只要是在發展特色特別是應用的產業特色的產業各縣市都有那國科會秉持我們中央政府協助地方的角色我們一定都會來協助大家"},{"start":6130.502,"end":6141.01,"text":"接下來要非常關心也就是我們的AI基本法那很高興的看到我們報告當中我們有一個很大的進展目前我們的AI基本法是預計10月就要來提出來"},{"start":6143.667,"end":6165.92,"text":"目前有沒有一個方向?我們在這個AI基本法的部分我們有一個有一個初步的版本已經出來了我們今天下午就會開第一場的跟產業的專家的這個諮詢大家一起來討論說這個內容是不是合適那我們在這個月我們會辦三場包含產業界包含學術界"},{"start":6168.001,"end":6188.874,"text":"包括各部會、各部會的溝通還有法人、機構還有甚至到我們的人權團體我們也都會邀請來制定一個比較平衡的兼顧人權也兼顧我們產業發展的是因為AI禁辦法其實討論許久其中一個重點就是它的相關規範跟指引尤其是我們對於風險的管理"},{"start":6190.695,"end":6202.745,"text":"如何管理風險但不能扼殺到產業所以我看我們政院其實過去國家智慧小組也開了好幾次的會也跟民間有諮詢的會議其中有給我們建議說應該要可以來參考國際AI安全峰會其中的布萊切利宣言裡面的一些基本的原則有沒有也在我們這次基本法的內容當中有 這個我們都有參考"},{"start":6214.674,"end":6233.054,"text":"因為風險管理是其中一個非常重要的成分都在我們基本法的這個設計中我想這非常的重要尤其是我們剛剛有講到是我們自己政府部門相關的機關我們會不會參考美國聯邦政府新的AI指引就是要求各機關要有指定的專責人AI的人員來協助"},{"start":6236.037,"end":6255.645,"text":"謝謝委員 這部分我們也把它納進來也在我們的基本法內容當中好 那我們非常的期待AI的基本法在今年就可以來提出我們也非常的支持那接下來是兩天前有一個新聞也就是我們在講AI的風險不知道主委有沒有注意到英國正在進行大選那BBC有一個報導他們發現在TikTok上面有利用AI來進行的這個影片"},{"start":6263.388,"end":6277.445,"text":"的內容是是利用真人看起來是這個政治人物講的話裡面可能涉及到對了移工跨性別的權利等等非常錯誤偏差式的評論而這是完全是虛假的訊息"},{"start":6278.466,"end":6306.08,"text":"甚至還有利用這個真人的影像政黨的領袖來讓他唱一首歌也是先涉及到主題是關於青年來從事軍事軍隊這樣的主題所以可以說是在英國正在發生的是AI的虛假訊息正在介入選舉所以我們對於這樣子的AI的虛假訊息也沒有相對應的這個技術來反制例如說我們怎麼樣來辨識這些影片"},{"start":6308.254,"end":6328.074,"text":"是,我們數位發展部剛剛有提到他們也在發展相關的反制的這個技術利用AI來反制這種假訊息或者是這個詐騙所以我們目前是有這樣的技術有這樣的技術正在研究當中還是已經完成正在建制當中"},{"start":6329.575,"end":6349.053,"text":"我們在AI基本法也會希望能夠把這一類的基本的人權因為這是民眾是生物痛覺的這些事情希望在AI基本法也有適當的宣示黃線在什麼地方防治AI生神已變的假訊息我想這未來會是一個跨部會"},{"start":6350.234,"end":6366.185,"text":"的工作是涉及到法務部警政署訴訟發布相關的所以請你們務必這是一個正在發生當中的事情尤其我們現在基本法也要來提出了請我們務必要有相關的行政工作準備是謝謝委員好那最後我非常想要關心在報告當中是我們的AI教育我們也要向下扎根其中有提到"},{"start":6371.889,"end":6386.171,"text":"不只是高等教育要有能夠來協助學生有未來相關產業的這個培訓我們的國民教育現在你們AI第一期高中時你們已經有在進行AI扎根了嘛那未來國中國小我們預計來怎麼樣來做"},{"start":6388.61,"end":6413.541,"text":"國中小這一部分我還沒有跟教育部討論但是我有預計要跟教育部來討論這個事情我們當然也是希望說能夠讓我們的小朋友從小就認識到AI的正面的這個對我們的幫助以及它可能會造成的威脅讓我們的小朋友從小就了解它的正負面的這個狀況然後在教育上來引導他們將來往好的地方去發展"},{"start":6414.481,"end":6427.745,"text":"主委,我覺得非常重要第一期我們已經有在高等教育有很不錯的成果那第二期我們要更加的向下扎根高中職、國中、國小我們趕快來跟教育部討論把這個規劃把它準備出來好不好謝謝委員,我們會照做好,謝謝主席好,謝謝吳佩奕委員主委請坐那我們再來請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":6442.217,"end":6448.723,"text":"主席 請國科會吳主委及書房部葉次長好 有請吳主委葉次長委員好"},{"start":6452.921,"end":6473.291,"text":"早安,諸位行政院在2018到2021有推出了一個台灣AI的行動計畫那在這個同時呢我們國科會的前身科技部呢也擬定了以AI小國大戰略來推了個五個推展的策略從2017到2021也投入了160億的經費那其中有50億呢是有建置一個國家級的AI雲端服務及高速算的這個平台"},{"start":6483.036,"end":6485.139,"text":"在2018年我們啟用的台灣山2號那在當時是排名全球第20強也是能源效率第10高的超級電腦但是在5年後的今天台灣山的這個排名已經滑落到第72"},{"start":6500.46,"end":6516.249,"text":"現役的超級電腦設備已經比較老舊了 這個算力也急需的擴充對於算力的需求 其實我們數法部這邊也說會提供AI技術共享來建立一個AI的算力池那對於這個算力提升及設備的升級 國會會現在有什麼新的規劃"},{"start":6518.942,"end":6540.209,"text":"我們逐步會提升這個算力的建制就是在公部門我們政府的投資的部分我們現在的這個算力大概只有9個Pedal Flops我們預計逐步提升到4年以後4年以後我們希望提升到200個Pedal Flops所以我們要提升到200的這個峰秒速度每秒的峰值速度那預計是要4年的時間嗎?"},{"start":6545.74,"end":6550.859,"text":"是因為我們預算還是有限是礙於預算還是因為技術"},{"start":6552.766,"end":6580.103,"text":"其實裡面也有風險因為AI的這個進步非常的快今天這麼大的這個算力的這個需求是來自於生成式AI但是我們了解的是生成式AI的這個做法其實是非常沒有效率的它可以利用算力展現出很好的成果但是它其實是耗費非常非常多的能源所以我們還有很多其他的限制包含我們的基礎建設要同步搭配還有我們的人才的培育也要跟著上來"},{"start":6581.363,"end":6599.054,"text":"人才培育這是另外一個部分,現在本席是針對說我們這個設備的升級,那本來剛才卓文林講了說要用4年的時間來升級到200的這個每秒峰值速度提升到200,要用4年,那如果可以有更快的"},{"start":6601.256,"end":6617.269,"text":"提升嗎?四年時間會不會太長?因為這個四年的時間可能發生很多的變化。是,報告委員像輝達他剛剛宣布的新的這個晶片其實它的效能就提升很多所以我們預計每年因為台灣的協助台灣半導體的這個進步"},{"start":6619.07,"end":6643.462,"text":"以及電子設備製造廠的能力我們每年都會把硬體運算的能力大幅提升所以我們現在在估計未來的投資的時候也不能夠太為大膽因為技術的變化很快所以我們會逐步的來檢討我們台灣不論是進一步的發展AI的技術還是要確保說我們能夠逐步的跟上AI的浪潮"},{"start":6644.383,"end":6658.623,"text":"我們提供這個足夠的資源提供這個足夠的這樣子演算的這個能力都需要有這樣的算力來支撐那剛才其實也有委員像裴委員也非常關心說到底這個算力我們自己本身的估算跟我們的技術能不能跟上來"},{"start":6660.565,"end":6671.248,"text":"要建構這個AI的研發平台有效的整合國內資源這個部分我們希望提供能夠共享共用的這個高運算的這個環境讓整個產業跟整個研究的這個量能夠提升上來所以這個部分也請說我們既然已經有定了這個目標往這個目標再前進的也希望說是不是能夠在自己能夠再評估說到底要多少的這個算力才能夠足夠支撐我們整個這個現在科研所需要的這個持續的發展"},{"start":6689.514,"end":6690.595,"text":"除了說政府公部門之外其實民間的力量也要加進來接下來我要請教隨著AI技術的發展"},{"start":6707.588,"end":6707.928,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6723.524,"end":6742.026,"text":"那在AI應用來處理個人的數據的時候尤其是說是人臉辨識或是行為預測這個領域也不自覺的會侵犯到個人的隱私喔那在這個部分我要請教次長喔如何在創新跟隱私的保護中找到平衡點我們現在對這些的規範我們已經有沒有一開始在著手規劃"},{"start":6744.372,"end":6771.917,"text":"謝謝委員給我們回答的機會首先我們非常同意委員指出的這一點就是說在深層式AI之下的確內容的真偽越來越難辨識那我們基本上有兩個方法來進行第一個我們要確保它的來源的真實性包括我們的簡訊的短碼也好或是短網址也好或是將來我們會推動社群平台上的廣告它必須採取實名制也就確保它的來源的真實性"},{"start":6772.737,"end":6797.635,"text":"第二,部長提出我們會在近期之內運用AI及機器學習的數據方式來建立一個詐騙的通報查詢網讓民眾有更多的資源能夠去辨別真偽最快的時間拿到正確的資訊那這樣的情況下即便還是有偽造的內容但是不容易造成他"},{"start":6798.575,"end":6815.126,"text":"所以我們在這個整個辨識的這個技術上還有相關的法規上我們都已經有這樣子在著手研議嗎?對 有些已經做好了比如說政府機關所使用的一一的這個簡訊平台已經建置完畢而且現在各個機關都開始使用了"},{"start":6816.579,"end":6827.811,"text":"我請教一下我們主委我們國科會這邊有發布了行政院跟所屬機關的這個生成式AI的參考指引"},{"start":6828.888,"end":6846.337,"text":"那我們是發布了指引之後就跟你們無關還是我們其實有在做查核?各機關在使用這些所謂的這些深層式AI的這些相關的這個有沒有照著我們的指引還是說我們發布之後就跟我們無關?"},{"start":6846.857,"end":6871.96,"text":"我們現在是提供參考各部會會因為應急啦現在是民眾的需求但是現在我們開始要制定一些作用法的時候我們現在AI基本法也同部會跟各部會一起來溝通形成一個比較完整的這個法制式那我的意思就是說我們有在做查核嗎查核目前還沒有還沒有沒有相關人力還是說本身還沒有做到這個部分"},{"start":6874.259,"end":6891.691,"text":"跟委員報告實際上來講話我們指引是一個就是行政院通用給所有各機關他們根據這個指引來做他內部的一些要用甚至是AI的時候的依據對所以現在來講話很多機關呢像監管會"},{"start":6892.432,"end":6914.36,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":6914.36,"end":6915,"text":"主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席"},{"start":6933.855,"end":6949.164,"text":"其實在我們的質疑裡面有規定說各機關使用生成式AI作為執行業務或提供服務的輔助工具的時候應該要適當的揭露那主委您知道有哪些機關有在使用生成式AI?您知道嗎?"},{"start":6952.107,"end":6970.262,"text":"我沒有盤點過那像現在有在推廣的像有特定功能的AR機器人包括口試機器人、教案撰寫機器人或是教師評語撰寫機器人是這樣機器人能使用主委您支持嗎?我們要如何確保公正跟無誤呢?對這一部分應該公部門還沒有正式使用"},{"start":6973.19,"end":6992.025,"text":"這個不是正式使用是說他這樣子使用我下次問說您的想法跟您的態度您支持嗎報告委員我個人的了解AI是沒有辦法準確度到百分之百任何的AI沒有辦法百分之百所以他只能當作一個協助的工具人還是最重要"},{"start":6994.107,"end":7011.573,"text":"大眾都非常關心到底使用這些AI的這些設備使用在各種的領域之內如何確保它是無誤的如果是公正的還有就是說民眾很關心的隱私權的這個部分那AI如何使用如何規範相關的這些法規規範也希望說我們國科會跟我們數法部這邊用你們的專業可以盡快的來研議相關的讓民眾在使用這一些AI的這些設備方便之餘"},{"start":7023.437,"end":7025.298,"text":"主席早安 有請諸位"},{"start":7052.289,"end":7053.672,"text":"有請吳主委委員好"},{"start":7058.612,"end":7082.908,"text":"各位早安我想這一次黃仁勳執行長特別來到台灣那到目前為止其實大家都還是把這樣子的一個風潮那當然也視為這個台灣其實真的就是科技產業當中的無名英雄當然也是全世界的支柱這是對台灣很大的一個鼓舞那當然其實最有關係的包含我們的這個國客會的部分"},{"start":7084.208,"end":7100.953,"text":"其實黃榮勛執行長他有在6月2日晚上的演講當中他有特別提到一個就是NVIDIA的Earth2氣候數位暖身雲端平台我想這個部分主委應該也是相當的清楚知道"},{"start":7101.934,"end":7117.076,"text":"它是利用一個所謂的這個物理的一個模擬跟電腦的一個圖形的技術來預測全球的氣候它數位燃身的一個計畫那可以更精準的包含就是天氣上的預測或者是在我們的所謂的這個天候"},{"start":7118.097,"end":7118.437,"text":"議員吳誠文、數位發展部列席"},{"start":7137.05,"end":7144.113,"text":"這個合作呢是我們中央氣象署有提供它是2018到2021的一個整個所有的這個氣象的一個數據也提供給這個Earth2來作為一個參考那從2021一直到現在其實在中間的一個模擬等於是台灣是獨步全球然後來做這一塊的一個模擬然後跟這個整個所有的實驗跟合作的部分"},{"start":7162.04,"end":7178.48,"text":"所以他的數據上的一個掌握的精準度我相信應該是凌駕在其他的國家之上那這個部分其實我也還想要再問一下下的就是說那目前我們所知道的像之前我有特別去我們的再訪中心"},{"start":7179.24,"end":7193.334,"text":"也特別去看了一下就是我們在放中心雖然有我們自己本身的這個目前已經在做使用的一些所謂的在放中心的一些作業的一些系統那但是呢再加上如果我剛剛所說的這個Earth2他們的這個數位軟身的一個源端的一個平台"},{"start":7198.799,"end":7214.292,"text":"的確他也有可能在這個部分也發揮到一些其他的一個功能目前在整個合作的進程或者是說在將來的一個近期的目標他可以運用在我們的防災中心當中的哪一個環節這個部分是不是想請教一下我們主委好沒問題謝謝"},{"start":7217.194,"end":7246.454,"text":"委員你好就如同委員所提到的NVIDIA確實像中央氣象署拿了許多資料然後它現在有一個模式 Earth2它把所有的資料然後用AI去把它運算算力說實在多了好幾百倍我們看到所有資料不過這也是其中的一個預測模式也就是說把過去的25公里的比例尺降到2公里的比例尺說實在精準度多了很多"},{"start":7247.294,"end":7266.429,"text":"我們也是所有的各部會包括我們在防中心也就是把這個精準度拿來應用到所有的這些風險評估的這些衝擊的分析我想非常有用那現在NVIDIA在跟我們談更進一步的事情那我想有一些成果的話我想會跟委員報告"},{"start":7267.236,"end":7289.273,"text":"因為接下來其實臺灣面臨的就是每次的五六月可能就會有所謂的梅雨季那七八月甚至到九月十月因為氣候在轉變我想臺灣的訊息就是從五月到十月就是一個訊息的期間所以我們非常注意這些事情是好那我們也期待就是進一步合作之後有什麼樣的一個進程或什麼樣的一個發展其實再提供給我們這樣子是是是沒有問題"},{"start":7289.833,"end":7307.125,"text":"好,那另外其實剛剛有特別提到這個Earth2的一個這個計畫那當中其實還有一個數位孿生就是Digital Twin它其實不是只有運用在這個部分它其實也運用在其他很多的不同的一個產業比方說像是一些文化遺址的一個修復"},{"start":7307.585,"end":7308.105,"text":"進程又是怎麼樣?有沒有這個計畫?"},{"start":7329.494,"end":7358.714,"text":"Digital Twin的技術是已經很久的它需要的確是很大的算力那它可以應用到很多不同的領域那黃文勳演講也有提到一些例子我們當然不管是在政府部門在這個產業推動各行各業的這個應用我們也會把這個技術也會把它納進來因為這個也是AI其中一項可以使用到的這個應用的這個領域那特別是在智慧製造"},{"start":7359.894,"end":7387.925,"text":"特別是對人來講很危險的環境不太容易接觸的這些Digital Twin都是非常重要的領域我們也期待這個可以大規模的運用然後帶給我們更多的幫助謝謝委員指教另外其實剛剛也有一些委員有特別提到就是我們的Tide的部分我想先前在質詢的時候關於台灣第一個本土可信任深層式的AI對話的一個引擎"},{"start":7391.207,"end":7407.581,"text":"提出了一些我的一些看法那當然我們知道他的繁體中文的一個資料庫還要顧及很多的面向包含他的這個文本、數據、合法授權的一些來源所以其實在這個繁體中文的這個泰德的開發其實也是"},{"start":7408.622,"end":7424.737,"text":"過程其實是很辛苦的但是其實這個成效其實目前來講其實我們這是覺得還是不錯的喔因為我記得這個5月份的時候其實國科會也針對這份的這個成果有特別做報告那也有特別說了在4月份其實我有一個7B的一個model"},{"start":7425.878,"end":7443.291,"text":"另外將來如果簽署的所謂還是已經有簽署的一些MOU然後一些13B的一個模型那這兩個其實它在表現上其實都還算是非常的不錯那幾乎已經可以就是跟這個CHAP GPT的3.5其實不分宣誓了那這個部分我比較想要再詢問的是說將來再擴大"},{"start":7451.637,"end":7480.952,"text":"中文資料庫的一些數據是不是有什麼樣的更多的一些機會或者是發展來解決目前在所謂的資料來源不足的這樣子的一個困境是委員問得很好我們現在在發展的時候因為經費有限而且要照顧到這個資料的公平性其實我們收集的資料還是要不能夠侵犯隱私不能夠有一些商業資料被我們誤用的"},{"start":7481.612,"end":7510.495,"text":"未來的發展就完全不一樣未來發展是我們利用建構起來這個平台能夠協助各行各業來使用TED這個平台來訓練它專業的資料有隱私的資料特定應用的資料讓它模型還可以再優化效率更高準確度更高所以接下來這種資料的擴散是要依照我們各種不同的應用來協助我們把它擴散出去"},{"start":7511.178,"end":7516.723,"text":"其實我們對這個部分也相當的一個期待了那另外其實在這個去年年底我們特別啟動了這個AI產品跟系統的評測中心然後這個涵蓋了所謂的這個目的主要是在建立所謂的這個AI評測制度跟制定這個AI產品的一個系統的評測的一個指引"},{"start":7533.836,"end":7553.63,"text":"會是以所謂的這個文字語言的模型為優先那我們知道其實像Meta或者是像這個OpenAI他們其實也願意將他們的語言的模型接受來做這個部分的一個評測那我們的太子有沒有機會也一樣可以來做這方面的一個評測這個部分是不是"},{"start":7554.35,"end":7578.055,"text":"這部分的技術現在數位發展部正在進行目前已經正在進行是是是所以評測的部分將來跟TED來合作這一點是沒有問題的那什麼時候會有一個比較確定的一個進程有沒有這樣的計畫跟委員報告其實我們測試的語言模型的第一個大概就是TED所以我們只要開始進行測試的第一個首先選擇就是我們這個國科會開發的這個TED是好"},{"start":7580.535,"end":7584.516,"text":"那我想今天因為時間的問題在這邊也謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝郭玉琴委員 主委請回那我們現在休息5分鐘不好意思 剛好宣告"},{"start":7902.213,"end":7906.115,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 我們接下來請羅廷威委員接訊謝謝 有請主席 幫我邀請吳主委數位部的葉長赤好 有請主委跟葉次長"},{"start":7929.724,"end":7950.151,"text":"委員好主委好主委不好意思我還是要提到一下前主委齁那個人工智慧基本法預計在今年年底推出那這是他說的齁那這個上個月主委您更是直接承諾要力拼今年10月底送進行政院請問目前草案研擬的進度有沒有方向有哪些方向什麼時候進行預告"},{"start":7951.994,"end":7970.448,"text":"我們這個月就在進行各界的溝通我們會開三場的諮詢會議包含跟產業界跟政府的各單位還有法輪學術界要做溝通10月要送進行政院8月可以預告吧8月可以預告"},{"start":7971.39,"end":7993.436,"text":"社會大眾不只是關注這個人工智慧基本法是因為今年3月13日歐盟已經通過了人工智慧法案我想這個等於未來要跟歐盟做生意AI的相關產業都需要遵守相關的規定否則無法進入市場本期就想先請問一下主委是否了解AI相關產業的產值有多少會輸出到歐盟的又佔多少"},{"start":7994.748,"end":8020.548,"text":"AI相關產業的產值是很難估計啦因為各種不同的應用你要把它的產值都加進來它其實相當的高那輸出到歐盟的占比呢你是講委員是講這個光是講硬體的部分還是因為台灣的輸出主要台灣的輸出主要是以硬體為主啦對到歐盟的有多少大概但是硬體其實我們直接供應的還是以美國的廠商為主美國廠商為主"},{"start":8021.789,"end":8048.667,"text":"以廠商為主,所以這一部分直接到歐盟的數量是比較少的但是確實的數字可能經濟部才會比較清楚沒關係沒關係我現在想要跟你探討的是另外一個層面本席因為會這樣子問的原因是國際上針對AI治理本來就有兩種做法一種是歐盟這種嚴格治理的模式提出監管的一個立法法案另外一種是美國、日本、英國鼓勵創新、鼓勵企業自主"},{"start":8051.909,"end":8079.163,"text":"與技術標準吳前主委有表示台灣不會走歐盟的路線而是朝日本、美國、英國的鼓勵創新的一個模式來做一個規劃但上個月有委員問您的立場您的回答是AI像一把菜刀非常重要且有用但也有可能被拿來做壞事所以要將其控制好的一個使用範圍本席可不可以理解為看起來您跟上一位的主委的態度不太一樣"},{"start":8080.103,"end":8098.218,"text":"是主張有可能要走歐盟模式而非日本美國英國的鼓勵創新模式而是您要主張是走中間路線控制的剛剛好那這樣子的算是控制的剛剛好的話那是不是一半符合歐盟一半不符合歐盟您可以給本席回答一下嗎"},{"start":8099.059,"end":8117.417,"text":"是 這個問題很好 我想我們前主委的態度非常清楚是因為台灣的產業其實跟美國這些主要的產商這個禮拜的委員也看得到主要往來是 主要往來 所以我們的產業發展為主的話就是以這個美國所"},{"start":8118.098,"end":8143.124,"text":"所訂定的這些法規的方向為參考的對象但是剛剛委員要提醒說在歐盟非常重視人權的這種法規的這種制定的方向其實我們的民眾也是非常期待我們也了解到說現在利用AI來做這個不好的事情詐騙、假訊息等等這些也是民眾深入痛覺的所以我們也會兼顧這部分"},{"start":8144.963,"end":8160.903,"text":"所以我想沒有對錯啦前主委跟現在您主委的一個態度我覺得沒有對錯只有好用跟更好用我們只是要善加提醒任何一個方案都可以但是就是要以最大台灣利益為考量"},{"start":8161.644,"end":8179.182,"text":"我想如果要走歐盟的模式大家都知道那個非常嚴格的一個限定而且AI法案將人工智慧又把技術上分成不可接受風險的等級然後還有需額外遵守安全規範的高風險等級承受的一個透明度義務有限或低風險的一個等級我想國科會是否有盤點目前台灣AI產業"},{"start":8184.967,"end":8200.639,"text":"發展有哪些屬於不可接受風險的等級高風險的等級以及有限或低風險的等級因為一旦踩到這一個罰款的紅線可能是從3500萬歐元跟全球營業額的7%到750萬歐元或營業額1.5%不等有沒有掌握這一類"},{"start":8208.382,"end":8212.768,"text":"這部分的業務我想我們將來我們數位發展部會依照委員這樣的這個意見我們會來進行就是盤點我們的產業數位發展部也是牽涉到我們的AI產業發展所以我們會來盤點"},{"start":8223.424,"end":8247.091,"text":"我們就是善意提醒沒有要拷倒你們只是希望一定要多加注意啦好不好請問規劃中的人工智慧基本法是否也有針對政府部分來做規範像目前行政院所屬機關使用深層式AI的參考指引就只有針對深層式AI的內容進行規範而沒有針對利用人工智慧系統來進行的社會評分預防犯罪以及行為操控的相關規定"},{"start":8248.944,"end":8268.353,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們在政府部門在AI基本法我們會做一些這個很重要的這個所以目前還沒做目前目前還好對都是提醒的那幾點我想我今天所提醒的剛好都是沒有做的部分那沒關係您的笑容非常燦爛也展現出誠意"},{"start":8270.954,"end":8298.328,"text":"沒有做我們趕緊補上我們會補上好不好這個部分可以嗎謝謝委員謝謝你好那另外呢歐盟以一般資料保護規則GDPR為例他不只規範企業也規範政府台灣個資法的主管機關原本是國發會為了因應GDPR所以成立了個人資料保護委員會的籌備處如果按照相同的道理我們是否也應該設立一個人工智慧治理保護委員會的方向思考"},{"start":8300.011,"end":8315.703,"text":"我們會來演繹一下委員的這個意見相當有深度好 這也是一個建議啦但是我想都是有脈絡的所以我們才會做這樣子的一個探討那 主委您應該有聽過數位落差"},{"start":8317.785,"end":8340.411,"text":"有聽過當然AI也會面臨相對應的一個問題我們的孩子是否擁有或者是會使用AI我覺得這會是未來一個新的課題也會成為新的不平等所以以後也會有一個AI落差以後可能會有會AI跟不會AI的兩個群體的差距要怎麼改善這之間的一個差距未來有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":8341.089,"end":8362.86,"text":"未來我們會跟教育部來合作希望能夠從教育端包含從大中小學能夠盡量把AI這種比較屬於科普的這種課程能夠拿到教育那對於這個民眾我們在產業推廣的時候我們會進行各行各業的這個產業推廣希望能夠減少這個數位落差"},{"start":8366.567,"end":8382.094,"text":"AI的落差以及高職以及國中他們能不能重視AI這是我未來非常關注重要的一個課題我要先跟你講那我先請問一下次長次長那個部長上任的時候有規劃說要設立AI生態園區目前規劃為何?"},{"start":8383.693,"end":8403.216,"text":"跟委員報告首先當然AI生態園區這個概念當然還是在提出的階段我們在跟國發會有沒有考慮在台中設立那我們不想強調主要是生態而不是園區因為對於這個AI產業來講大多數的產業都是在線上進行的所以它需要的是資料、算力跟演算法"},{"start":8404.036,"end":8419.709,"text":"我們會優先從這方面來投資而不是投資土地或廠房所以就我們的觀點來看的話我們會對全台灣跟AI有相關的產業都盡量把它串聯起來好 那我還是要說台中有土地水南園區以及它有一個創研用地"},{"start":8421.09,"end":8437.976,"text":"交通方便、位置適中、居住人口也年輕、相關產業人才皆有也希望你能夠考量為使AI的一個應用發展可信任度、安全且可靠所以規劃必須通過數位部的一個AI評測業者才能販售或使用AI系統請問國內制度是否參考國際相關的規範目前規劃的評測類型項目又是哪些?"},{"start":8443.038,"end":8445.719,"text":"最後我想數位部在今天的報告有提到在高中值開設AI課程請問辦理的狀況為何?整體開設的比例有多高?"},{"start":8469.392,"end":8473.413,"text":"目前這些課程我想這個偏鄉還有高中值的開設狀況這都是我們所關注的那與哪些企業及培訓單位合作我們也很想知道是不是會後能夠提供相關的資料給我們"},{"start":8495.541,"end":8513.173,"text":"我們更希望能夠讓所有的孩子都有機會能夠參與到加強宣傳所以資料給我我也來幫忙宣傳嘛是是是謝謝委員好不好我們一起為教育努力謝謝謝謝好謝謝羅廷偉委員好主委請回我們接下來請張雅玲委員謝謝主席我們有請主委有請吳主委"},{"start":8527.54,"end":8545.143,"text":"委員好主委好因為剛剛有委員問到就是有關於兒童教育在AI這一段那我就想我就先延伸來提醒一下就其實在2016年世界經濟論壇就一路出報告來提醒大家面對AI孩子需要具備的能力是什麼"},{"start":8546.204,"end":8564.818,"text":"在AI世代如何還是成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才其實是透過遊戲因為遊戲之中其實有充分的創造力的練習這個是AI現在沒有辦法取代的所以我希望就是說我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面的話我們可能還是要非常的謹慎"},{"start":8566.179,"end":8594.359,"text":"不要就是投入太多的AI的課程反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間那反而是讓我們沒有辦法在AI時代可以存活下來這個是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇就一個很大的提醒那接下來我就進入今天的重點那我想大家這幾天應該都非常了解就是黃仁勳的演講其實他一直不停的去強調就是說台灣是無名英雄是世界的支柱那感染也鼓舞了所有的台灣人"},{"start":8595.974,"end":8624.682,"text":"同時接下來也有一系列不管是AMD或是超微他們都宣布要投資台灣一瞬間台灣變成了世界的中心台北市電腦工會理事長有提到有三個重點需要面對第一個就是算力第二個是電力第三個是人力上次我在諮詢經濟部的時候有提到說我們有沒有把AI需要的電力來把它算進去"},{"start":8625.482,"end":8641.745,"text":"因為現在大家都大幅的加碼投資剛剛也是一堆算力中心要進來了那我想跟主委請教就是說因為算力就是非常需要電力那我們之前在做這些估算的時候有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢?"},{"start":8643.403,"end":8665.382,"text":"有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢?有,抱歉。報告委員,我們跟經濟部是一直密切在溝通。在經濟部提出來的這個規劃裡面,其實未來幾年,我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求,這個電力是一直,需求是一直在成長。"},{"start":8666.443,"end":8672.046,"text":"在成長的過程當中我們會盡力去開發我們的綠電這個綠電目前規劃當中是希望將來短期內"},{"start":8677.574,"end":8706.883,"text":"我們現在預計要增建這些算力這個超級電腦能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題好那這部分因為其實因為這個AI的進步是成長迅速啦所以而且雖然說好像我們算力大幅的增加我們效能增加電力也沒用到這麼多但是我覺得這邊我們還是要實時的去保持我們要去計算出相對的一些電力需求讓我們確保我們的這些產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續的有好好的運作"},{"start":8707.703,"end":8731.761,"text":"謝謝委員再來就是說因為其實我們在112年有提供提出一個晶片驅動台灣創新產業的一個方案也投入了3000多億要來挹注這個生成式AI的關鍵技術那也有說我們要跟百工百業來去調查他們的AI需求並且已經以機械業為示範的案例建立了資料共享機制那我想要了解在這一段"},{"start":8732.341,"end":8755.409,"text":"我們目前針對百工百業雖然是112年開始那我們接下來的一個規劃目前的進度是什麼有沒有詳細的一個推廣我們大概要到什麼時候推廣到多少的產業這樣子我在上個月接任的時候有跟媒體宣布過我們在三個月內要規劃出一個方案出來三個月內是嗎三個月內那之後可以規劃出方案的時候可不可以也提供給我們"},{"start":8756.966,"end":8768.516,"text":"當然一定也會在這邊報告跟委員報告那接下來我想要再提醒我不知道主委有沒有看過這一份就是AI產業化去年一個新的大調查的報告不知道主委看過這份報告嗎"},{"start":8771.33,"end":8798.922,"text":"這份報告我個人沒有看過好喔沒關係那我之後也希望說主委可能也可以看一下因為我們剛剛講百工百業他其實就講到了他們去調查了四種不同的產業這樣子製造業啦然後還有專業服務業啊然後還有ICP產業等等的那他就有講到去了解說到底有多少企業導入了AI那這樣看起來算有近半數好像有導入但是也有近半數過半數已經導入但是也有近半數完全沒有"},{"start":8799.942,"end":8821.11,"text":"還沒有導入這樣子所以這邊說我們要如何的來協助大家做使用會是一個很重要的重點尤其是台灣其實有非常多的中小企業那你可以看一下這張圖我們台灣製造業的AI化指數差異是很大的我們可能在資訊流通業ICT產業很高黑色的虛點線是平均值"},{"start":8822.19,"end":8830.196,"text":"但是我們的製造業政府機關以及零售貿易服務業都是低於平均的所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助"},{"start":8831.807,"end":8861.127,"text":"我自己看了一些報導他們說製造業是可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率提升良率、預防性維修所以這些都是好處但是我也看到了這個人工智慧學校的校長孔祥忠院士他提到說我們現在的政府資料其實是有問題的我們的原始資料不明是什麼樣的資料何時收集是否經過整理都不清楚第二個也不知道資料到底放在哪裡伺服器經常壞許多實驗產出數據寫了兩篇論文之後資料就不知道在哪裡了"},{"start":8861.907,"end":8879.131,"text":"第三個授權的規格不明是否定期維護所以就變成說政府都說有資料但是沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的都不算真的資料所以如果以這個標準來看可用的資料其實非常少那就會很難做出AI模型"},{"start":8881.55,"end":8893.259,"text":"他說他有三個建議就是說我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚建立產業模型來養技職人才那是不是可以在像是如果是通用的通用資料就用通用模型給一般人專業領域如製造業醫療業"},{"start":8897.022,"end":8897.422,"text":"可以請數位部來回答"},{"start":8917.027,"end":8945.357,"text":"跟委員報告本部的資料治理的部分是由我們多元創新司來負責委員剛剛指出的非常正確目前政府資料的狀況是屬於一個還在比較初階的階段我們會爭取一個公共建設計畫做所謂的資料圖譜讓各個政府的資料它的整個圖像變得比較清楚相對來講不管是要進行資料創接應用服務也好"},{"start":8945.737,"end":8946.738,"text":"議員吳誠文、數位發展部列席"},{"start":8972.056,"end":8986.091,"text":"規劃現在是有的對不對我們現在在進行規劃中在進行規劃那進行規劃之後是不是也可以提供給我我們可以來做一些討論好不好沒有問題那再來就是說我想我就因為時間有點不太夠我來講一個重點就是說其實今天委員也都有提到就是說"},{"start":8987.172,"end":9008.312,"text":"到底我們要不要持續的去對台德做投資那我自己看這個圖靈獎得主主導Meta AI研究的科學家楊立坤他就有講不要研究大型語言模型這上次我有跟主委講我們應該要來專精於本土語言模型這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方那我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告我也發現資訊業"},{"start":9010.674,"end":9013.277,"text":"提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒提醒"},{"start":9030.152,"end":9048.812,"text":"金融時報在5月22日報導了中國近期透過的一些官方訓練他們自己的CHAT GPT叫做CHAT CPT這是金融時報說的因為它主要訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫"},{"start":9050.133,"end":9070.586,"text":"習思想是由14條原則來組成的包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀所以他今天闡述的內容其實是會造成一些很大的偏頗的問題有不中立的問題那剛剛好今天國語日報他也講到了這一點"},{"start":9072.309,"end":9082.938,"text":"所以這一點我想請主委或是誰可以來回答我就說當世界都在發展AI的時候我們今天是我們的本土語言模型的時候我們要如何來確保我們的資料不是偏頗的"},{"start":9084.679,"end":9111.548,"text":"我非常同意委員的觀點其實大型元模型不是萬靈丹它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法它是一種統計性的方式需要大量的資料、非常大的模型用耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確它其實不是所有的應用都適合"},{"start":9112.268,"end":9136.764,"text":"我們現在放講AI,AI有很多種方式所以我們要混合其他的方式不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型所以委員的觀點非常好所以我們要兼顧說能源的有效使用人才的有效使用模型的優化資料的準確度將來在各行各業的應用我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的這個發展很同意委員的觀點"},{"start":9137.785,"end":9159.799,"text":"對,但是我想要知道就是說剛剛其實有講嘛就是說我也非常認同啦就是說我們應該要做出一些差異化而且是真正適合台灣的產業使用的那當然就是說延伸這一點我先延伸一下就是說我們應該要來跟企業來合作開發更多的應用情境來協助企業來使用這個深層式AI這樣子那但是齁"},{"start":9161.18,"end":9184.38,"text":"這是要坦白說啦,也是要一定開發能力的企業才有辦法自己開發出來那所以是說是不是因為目前台德還是一整包資料啦,未來也希望就是說是不是可以開放出來這是可能可以來討論但是還是回到我們的偏頗我們要如何確保我們現在訓練的資料沒有偏頗性的問題對這個部分就是有現在是怎麼可以再做一些說明嗎"},{"start":9185,"end":9206.557,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我們所謂的這個TIDE因為Trustworthy缺的資料不偏頗是我們一個蠻重要的任務那未來這個在數位部列的評測中心其實他們也會做這方面的檢測所以這是我們很注意的一個重點在發生TIDE的時候這檢測性是頻率是多久呢我們資料對就資料進來的時候要經過評測中心來檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗這樣子好所以這個那個114年的公建計畫應該也非常有關係對不對會會是好了解謝謝喔"},{"start":9215.662,"end":9224.604,"text":"謝謝委員好謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員還出了請回我們接下來請AI博士可如君委員"},{"start":9239.104,"end":9241.991,"text":"謝謝主席。有請國科會吳誠文主委與數發部葉寧常務次長配訓。謝謝。好。有請吳主委葉次長。"},{"start":9249.909,"end":9274.51,"text":"委員好謝謝主委今天的報告真的是很高興可以看到您上次投出一顆好球我們接住了我們丟回去您也接住了十月提出AI基本法的目標在這個報告裡面提了兩次不過你們前面留了期望兩個字那我們就一起期望但是我認為今天這份報告還是有一些地方希望能夠來跟主委探討一下首先"},{"start":9276.007,"end":9302.123,"text":"我們發現這整份報告裡面對於對接國際的這個部分真的是有所缺憾我們很擔心我們的AI變成閉門造局今天你是國科會是在做未來方向的報告我們不用講裡面有一半以上都是在講現況未來是最重要的但是結果未來竟然只在最後的一夜跟一夜半那裡面有很多的細節以前也許有一些立委可能不是像我這麼宅不太懂"},{"start":9302.583,"end":9320.947,"text":"但是今天因為底下有兩位都是我以前的老師他們都教得很好所以我懂所以我今天真的是要來討論一下首先以第8頁為例你們說因應AI發展算力的需求你們的這個方案預定在2024年底完成16 petaflops2025超越100 petaflops2028年完成200 petaflops"},{"start":9328.939,"end":9354.339,"text":"老實說,隨便Google一下連GDP都不用問這個一比較起來是真的會流眼淚的我們到2024年才16現在印度的已經是410我還查過了他們的國民生產毛額或者是總體的這個所謂的全部累計的GDP我們也頂多就是四分之一啦七分之一啦除一下我覺得這個數字也真的有點可憐"},{"start":9355.96,"end":9368.055,"text":"更不用講現在國外已經開始在用exaflops來做單位了我們這樣子真的是算力非常堪憂我想報告的第13頁開始總算未來佈局了但覺得有點單薄"},{"start":9369.71,"end":9392.492,"text":"只有一頁的內容然後我們看到前面說我們要推動AI創新看到的案例只有三個例子當然有一個農業我覺得是不錯但提到這個所謂Computer Vision辨識的地方我們覺得有點作為阿宅因為我是那個中研院廖所長的粉絲他們做了一個這個YOLO這個非常非常受歡迎的開發套件"},{"start":9394.313,"end":9415.024,"text":"結果呢5月26號已經出了最新版這一份6月5號的報告竟然說YOLO是V7啦我就直接講啦現在已經第10代了V9已經是全球轟動了這個上個禮拜是出到第10代了我們這份最新的報告說我們台灣的中研院自己參與主導開發的YOLO是第7代"},{"start":9418.393,"end":9434.699,"text":"真的是有點志向矛盾更不用講啦說什麼參數比較啦算力都沒有去缺這個所謂的跨國的訊息的同步跟比較然後呢我們這去了解各部會AI的成果好像溝通協調回來也就零零總總兩三樣"},{"start":9436.34,"end":9453.073,"text":"我們真的很擔心到底各部會有沒有接您的球啊您發出去的這個訊息各部會有沒有回應啊陳建仁院長曾經說未來要推AI行動計畫3.0未來一定是由您來統籌規劃您投出去的球各個單位會接嗎?你作為這個投撲手作為這個打擊者也好都應該是瞻仰這個全世界各地的狀況你有在看嗎?各位稍微回應一下"},{"start":9465.19,"end":9486.645,"text":"謝謝委員的指教因為我這個才第三個禮拜啦那其實還沒有時間去拜訪各部會這真的是很遺憾不過我會努力做這個事有需要我們幫忙的地方我們一起來協作好不好謝謝您的誠意啦這個既然這個但是喔三個禮拜AI已經要跳帶囉我們每天在睡覺"},{"start":9488.786,"end":9492.369,"text":"所以我們不能把我們現在的時間當成以前的時間來看再來還有一點我看了非常憂心這一份報告很可能是我們接下來台灣6個月甚至是6年的發展方向其中關於AI的行政命令在美國"},{"start":9508.283,"end":9520.72,"text":"或者是AI基本法在歐盟都非常重視利用AI打詐以及禁止AI被運用於詐騙請問這份報告裡面有沒有提到這個部分我有沒有看錯沒有啊我有沒有看錯"},{"start":9524.315,"end":9550.587,"text":"主委,我有沒有看錯?我們數位發展部的報告裡面有所以國科會不需要管這個事情科研不需要來協作嗎?所以我們希望速發部的研發能力比國科會強嗎?國科會當然學界研發能力比較強但是我們在各部位的分工上面我們有一些工作是速發部那我想未來我們報告改一下與打詐無關的人工智慧推動現況與未來方向好不好?"},{"start":9552.128,"end":9567.561,"text":"再來我們看2023年的4月份OpenAI的執行長Sam Altman跟日本首相岸田文雄會面會後Sam Altman表達對日本市場的重視並且考慮跟日本合作的可能結果呢?"},{"start":9567.561,"end":9571.324,"text":"結果呢?今年的2024年是要更正嗎?時間暫停一下這邊有沒有?我剛剛講錯了是不是?現在要更正可以喔?沒有嗎?好OK那我們繼續喔"},{"start":9579.278,"end":9597.804,"text":"跟日本合作的可能 OpenAI 在官網宣布4月14日在日本設立亞洲第一個辦事處我們可以看到日本我們的鄰居日本好朋友對引進先進產業的企圖跟決心還有誠意主委那你們呢我就問一個問題你們執政團隊有沒有跟Sam Altman提出過邀約"},{"start":9599.885,"end":9621.082,"text":"我們再來看上個星期黃仁勳去逛夜市16%的GDP跟他吃晚餐黃仁勳基於產業要求的人都來到台灣了政府有沒有動作有沒有邀約相關產業的巨頭來聊有沒有跟黃仁勳聯繫我們平常就有在聯繫平常就有在聯繫有開會有討論我們的與打炸無關的人工智慧發展現況嗎"},{"start":9623.052,"end":9623.532,"text":"這一部分沒有"},{"start":9653.193,"end":9653.555,"text":"有沒有?目前沒有"},{"start":9658.286,"end":9672.173,"text":"希望我想您的角色真的非常重要希望您可以做到專業的協助讓我們的AI內閣真的是AI內閣那我們再來持續的來看我們樂見產業發展但是我們的規劃政策規劃要考慮到不是只有產業還有我們的所有的這個社會的發展文化的提升這些都是我們考慮的社會的發展文化的提升就是詐騙的防治"},{"start":9684.7,"end":9685.121,"text":"主權AI是我們剛剛提出來的"},{"start":9701.496,"end":9722.389,"text":"然後呢之前也很感謝啦我們之前執政黨說算力及國力接下來我們還要面臨到一個挑戰電力及國力這個今天我們暫時不討論前面有很多委員都討論了但是我們來看我們的算力是怎麼做的呢我們的算力是速發部要打造算力池我們國科會也有高速電腦網路中心我們來看速發部要買什麼32片H100"},{"start":9727.503,"end":9741.275,"text":"我是真的齁大家去google一下就可以看到了齁一間Tesla公司的一個工廠德州的製造廠就要買5萬片的H100他的一個社群網站要買30萬片的B200請問"},{"start":9744.278,"end":9753.04,"text":"相關的計畫接下來還有好幾年後續有沒有要採購新的晶片我們之前質詢已經講了人家H100已經都量產了你再來買H100再來訂預算買到的時候人家已經是B200了我們現在再去編B200預算買到的時候人家已經不知道飛去哪裡了我們有沒有提前規劃提前規劃去購買下一個世代的算力來供業界運用有嗎"},{"start":9770.543,"end":9789.185,"text":"我們現在規劃的預算等到我們真正採購的時候一定當然會要針對最新的的那個設備那現在有沒有在編列B系列的預算?我們所編的預算那個楊老師好像有嗎?好像想幫忙解釋不好意思那個主席讓我因為他這個訊息很重要"},{"start":9790.282,"end":9816.315,"text":"我們國防中心在編列這邊的時候都會考慮未來新出來的那個計算機的那個型號是這樣子所以就是說我們先編列預算然後框預算到時候購買的時候但是用最新的機器的為主這個委員不用擔心好我們剛剛其實是非一體沒有關係希望真的是以最新的來講同時因為你去買這些東西真的緩不濟急現在有一些雲端的服務其實我自己很清楚"},{"start":9816.755,"end":9820.637,"text":"主委您覺得到底以前我們說世界各國想到晶圓代工想到台灣那未來呢?主委您覺得未來想到AI的什麼會直覺想到台灣?到底是什麼?我們在這本裡沒有辦法看到"},{"start":9841.823,"end":9842.303,"text":"軟硬整合我想在座兩位老師都很清楚"},{"start":9872.348,"end":9881.715,"text":"臺灣也有臺灣的實驗室做影像辨識的臺灣也有研發實驗室也有某個水果公司做那個最新產品同時我們這個YOLO的這個系統在全世界都非常受歡迎我們軟體很強的我們應該要一起來最後最後一個點我們要作為產業跟科研的種子頭"},{"start":9895.486,"end":9916.147,"text":"因為您是主委也兼任政委所以所有關於台灣AI的推動小組、行動計畫、參考指引我上次已經朗讀過我就不再朗讀了還有台灣AICOE、應用專題中心、研究中心、A家、DigitalPlus、DigitalPlus 2.0我還是忍不住朗讀起來讓您知道真的有多麼琳瑯滿目跟豐富"},{"start":9918.349,"end":9921.873,"text":"同時我也想要問這裡面還有很多東西細節是我們作為科研作為學研作為產業研發是沒有辦法了解的我4月份向各位提出建議到底有沒有要做我們一個Yellow Page一站式的"},{"start":9933.146,"end":9961.901,"text":"列出科研學研我們有台灣LOM我們有台德我們還有這個機器狗這個機器人我們今天就不討論但是呢我們到底這個接下來您有回覆啦說要成立一個一站式的查詢頁面通查網可不可以請一下簡要說明啦說明一下第一這上面有沒有相關的這些計畫會名列第二後續的規劃如何第三什麼時候會建置完成"},{"start":9964.557,"end":9984.661,"text":"有沒有時間表這是誰寫的請他報告一下專業分工說明一下跟委員報告一下我們目前相關的跨部會的協調透過智慧國家方案在推動我們近期因為新的內閣的成員上來我們正在做那個"},{"start":9991.983,"end":10014.174,"text":"簽成簽完之後我們就會開第一次的工作會議那工作會議上面就會把這個事情放到工作會議裡面來討論到時候才會有各部會的那個相關的那個資料的彙整那預計第三季就會那個網站的內容就會上去第三季嗎好非常期待拜託一定要非常清楚一定要讓國外的人士可以很清楚知道"},{"start":10015.214,"end":10040.403,"text":"臺灣真的是AI的世界的中心真的是有非常強大的軟硬整合的實力我們作為這個種子頭啦我們一定要讓大家循線追查可以知道臺灣有多少優秀的種子可以來幫助AI產業持續發展我們也期待國會這邊扮演到非常重要的角色三個禮拜很長了AI每天在睡覺的時候我們每天在質詢的時候都在變聰明再拜託我們再繼續努力謝謝"},{"start":10044.324,"end":10046.645,"text":"好,謝謝葛如君委員,主委請回。那我們現在有請林一錦委員質詢,有請主委。聽我請了,謝謝。還有葉次長,數發部。還有葉次長跟數發部,謝謝。"},{"start":10075.307,"end":10101.605,"text":"主委好主委好我想會定這個題目最主要是真的是AI的應用的浪潮正在席捲全世界特別是2022年11月這個OpenAI將這個CHAP GPT開放給大眾使用之後帶出了這個生成式AI的新序幕那我想用"},{"start":10102.125,"end":10107.01,"text":"更配合這個揮打的執行長黃仁勛來台﹖加起一陣旋風當然我想他的演講也讓我們台灣有很多的啟發特別他也強調人工智慧和加速運算將重新定義未來"},{"start":10122.506,"end":10139.335,"text":"科技飛速帶來那麼的便利可是這個同時我們要注意的是什麼因為它會相伴著很多的風險跟使用上的疑慮還有我們各種法制作業所需的建構首先想要用這個新聞來跟你探討生成式AI應用過程中合理使用的界限"},{"start":10147.299,"end":10153.464,"text":"還有這個智慧財產權保護的問題這個就是那個今年4月復興商工的校內的美術展覽的競賽然後首獎的作品遭事後發現說他是AI生成的有這個新聞那很多的學者都有出面表示說AI的使用已經是勢在必行那重點應該放在說怎麼教育學生如何正確的使用AI"},{"start":10175.78,"end":10194.893,"text":"所以創作屬於自己的作品而且具備所謂的財產智慧權的概念可是從這個事件來我們可以看出說AI的應用會改變創作的原創性的定義就是說我們可以把AI視作一種工具可是當然也可以同時把它視作是直接的產出"},{"start":10198.855,"end":10218.819,"text":"但無論是寫作業也好競賽創作也好或真是作品AI的應用過程跟結果就應該如何規範或者應該如何對人民進到基本的素養教育我想國科會跟數位發展部責無旁貸"},{"start":10222.819,"end":10243.925,"text":"想要就教主委跟次長就是說除了國科會在今年我們要10月嘛剛剛很多委員都有就教就是要提出AI基本法的草案進行這個大方向性的規範那在那個之前我們寫作業也好或者競賽創作真實作品的面向我們如何通案性的界定"},{"start":10244.565,"end":10248.087,"text":"在10月發表AI使用法的基本法的時候在這之前我們怎麼樣去規範或怎麼樣去定義那個合理使用的界線"},{"start":10274.545,"end":10299.315,"text":"目前我們是各部會依照這個指引我們這個AI的指引希望大家盡快先在法律還沒有制定之前先有一些指引可以依循然後我們的產業界我們的這個所有的AI的使用者能夠有這個指引他就不會去太濫用這個AI的能力去做一些不合適的事情"},{"start":10299.955,"end":10328.77,"text":"好,那也請次長回答我這個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣去界定這個界限首先跟委員報告有關智慧財產權的部分那它經濟部有所謂智慧財產局那他們來主管著作權、專利法以及商標法所以有關於它是不是著作權的問題可能最後要以這個智慧財產局的說法為準那的確委員所說的沒有錯在這部分有一些法律上的爭議譬如說AI所生成的算不算是一種著作物"},{"start":10329.15,"end":10341.895,"text":"以及他著作人是不是這個應用AI的人這是有爭議的那而且很多的學者也都說以AI生成不太能夠把它當作著作人來看待或著作物來看待那這個當然國際上還在討論據我所知那智慧局也在根據國際的歧視在做進一步的研究"},{"start":10347.737,"end":10377.175,"text":"如果有需要的話他會修改這個著作權法的規定來做更詳細或是由智慧局來發布解釋函令才會更精確當然也要看法院的見解因為智慧財產局其實在去年6月他就表示說AI是利用人如戲單純下指令他覺得並未投入精神的創作那由生成AI模型獨立自助運算而生成的所謂的全新的內容他覺得該AI的生成內容"},{"start":10377.415,"end":10378.495,"text":"主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席"},{"start":10403.622,"end":10423.037,"text":"當然這部分剛剛次長跟部長跟主委也有提到一些想法但我還是期待說在這部分要更完備的去做一些周延的規劃另外我想再提幾個就是說美國人工的智慧研究實驗室"},{"start":10424.537,"end":10444.826,"text":"他在上個月底有發布一個報告他就探討說人工智慧工具如何被用於秘密影響力的這個行動那這份報告有指出說中國、伊朗、俄羅斯、以色列他們的組織都利用open AI工具創造假訊息剛剛有很多委員有提及"},{"start":10445.066,"end":10468.171,"text":"提及並在社群媒體上發布另外瑞典的大學也有研究說臺灣已經是連續11年受境外假訊息攻擊最嚴重的國家所以可見AI假訊息的資訊攻擊會是我們全球各國特別是臺灣我們要提升防衛意識的很重要的一個目標"},{"start":10470.543,"end":10478.71,"text":"本席知道說我們速發布在上個月我們就有說要規劃設立所謂剛剛也有很多委員說就是所謂的打詐通報查詢網那利用這個AI對抗AI假訊息那可是在台灣嚴重受到假訊息嚴重的侵擾之下這個有關於AI假訊息的對抗的這個問題不曉得你們目前有什麼具體的解決手段"},{"start":10497.706,"end":10513.242,"text":"還有就是說國科會如何跟訴發部合作就是說除了力抗這個假訊息這個詐騙以外對於所謂的國安不死的訊息有什麼樣防範的這種做法"},{"start":10516.042,"end":10533.275,"text":"跟委員報告,如委員所說的就是我們現在AI技術所產生的不管是詐騙訊息或假訊息的確在技術上面會越來越難辯證為那數法部有兩個方案來進行第一個是溯源那我們要讓民眾非常能夠簡單的知道說這個來源是可靠的"},{"start":10533.815,"end":10552.769,"text":"包括簡訊的部分我們政府部門已經使用11如果看到政府部門的來的訊息不是這個11那可能就是有問題那將來我們會進一步推所謂商用檢碼在檢碼上面來源我們跟電信公司合作基本上面沒有詐騙集團使用檢碼的可能性這是第一件事情"},{"start":10553.309,"end":10569.706,"text":"第二件事情就是說剛剛委員也提到就是我們會努力來建立所謂的詐騙的查詢通報網讓民眾能夠將相關資訊能夠很快的能夠再找到答案說它是不是一個詐騙的案例那這個當然要透過AI技術來掃描以及這個辨識那這個我們會努力來做"},{"start":10573.649,"end":10573.669,"text":"好"},{"start":10603.69,"end":10618.808,"text":"最後我想說提醒一下我們國科會會開發這個Tide生成性的AI對話引擎當然現在我們要灌入很多的素材給它用繁體中文的資料我想"},{"start":10620.49,"end":10628.373,"text":"要如何讓它符合台灣文化跟所謂台灣的價值觀的內容我想這個變成很重要那重點是不能讓歧視跟具有偏見的回答內容出現在對話引擎的應用上"},{"start":10638.418,"end":10652.288,"text":"當然現在台灣社會還是很有很多歧視跟具有偏見的言論層出不窮我們不希望這樣的情形出現在這個人工智慧的對話引擎中我們也要建議說這個歧視的內容要完全杜絕"},{"start":10653.129,"end":10663.432,"text":"如果出現文化上的差異至少要並程回答或交代脈絡我舉例來說假設我們要使用一個AI的對話引擎想要生成一張具台灣婚禮特色的圖片可是什麼叫做具台灣婚禮的特色光援助民族就有很大的差異所以你如果只讓AI生成一張或一種的這種"},{"start":10684.218,"end":10708.397,"text":"臺灣特色的婚禮那我想這個可能就不夠所以我的意思說那某個程度也代表我們對於臺灣本土文化的一種偏見所以我想說這個提醒你因為時間的關係就要多加留意那對於我們的這個多元文化跟具有偏見跟歧視的這種內容是不是要有一些關照"},{"start":10708.937,"end":10725.862,"text":"是,謝謝委員往這個方面來修正就是我們在做這個態度的時候是,避免歧視與偏見這也是我們非常努力要做的事好,OK謝謝委員謝謝主委謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝主委主委請回謝謝好,下一位我們請柯志恩召委"},{"start":10744.09,"end":10748.551,"text":"主委,請主委主委好因為AI目前是台灣最熱門的一個關鍵字但我想想看這個我們有關於全國的科技的這個會議最近開的話應該是在109年也是三年半前所以有關全國的科技會議當中也特別提到了那時候就提到如何育才、留才跟攬才"},{"start":10772.675,"end":10778.077,"text":"他們希望能夠取出具體的一個政策但是數字會說話我們來看看到底有沒有什麼成效上次我已經提過了我們的數位競爭力每一年都在下降然後呢我們就這個STEM大家知道嘛這個STEM的人才這個科學、科技、工程、數學領域10年當中大概少了也將近10萬人"},{"start":10794.582,"end":10819.517,"text":"而且呢有關於這個STEM領域的博士的人數也少了4000多人這個減幅是在26%以上主委你應該知道這個警訊吧雖然我們每個人都知道台灣是AI人才的創造中心每個人就是看重台灣的人才可是當我們這麼多的人才不斷在流失的時候這也是一個我今天我們看下面這圖我想每個人今天幾乎所有的委員都來"},{"start":10819.957,"end":10839.137,"text":"但是我討論的不是因為這是無名的英雄那被列舉的這17個大學大家都非常的高興但是這17個大學怎麼被挑選出來呢因為他們都設有AI的學程或是跟AI的學院有相關聯所以就被調列出來但是主委我們都來自學校你認為以我們現在大學的師資"},{"start":10841.019,"end":10844.021,"text":"你覺得我們現在的學校,因為國科會是負責在學術裡面當中做很多的分配你覺得我們現在大學的師子有辦法來培育頂尖未來產業所需要的人才嗎?"},{"start":10858.463,"end":10876.133,"text":"現在是有能力啦就是我們有頂尖的研究型的大學那我們也有一些計時體系的學校是可以培養產業需求的人才是啊 但是我看了一下台青教跟AI有關係的這些教授學者們大概"},{"start":10877.213,"end":10883.378,"text":"不是那麼多都是在英特爾頂多是在英特爾有做過幾年的經驗那很多都還是來做本土的一個訓練我並沒有說本土訓練不行但是呢我覺得這個面臨一個跟產業間一個很大的間接所以你國科會未來在做這個academic oriented的過程當中是不是有一些不同的審核的標準過去靠paper來現在你如果完全只靠paper來取向基礎科學來說這不符合我們人才需求的"},{"start":10905.336,"end":10910.319,"text":"所以你們未來對於這個AI計畫的審核的標準有沒有不一樣還是我只要畫一個整核心計畫寫一個AI你都給它過關有不一樣嗎委員提出來這個觀點非常的好將來我們在屬於學術研究的前瞻研究這個領域跟我們在AI的應用推廣我們需要人才能夠連結到產業界這一類的這個研究計畫實務型的研究計畫我們會做一些不同的這個"},{"start":10932.312,"end":10955.344,"text":"你一定要的,因為你現在完全是基礎科學你完全沒有辦法,因為現在就算我告訴你你上去上網去看嘛老師唯有在產業界當中他如果沒有透過產業界來跟他做一個間接的話光是靠現在基礎科學這些老師我們都知道我們離開博士學完之後二十幾年來我們也是弄過去也是不斷自己study但是那是跟產業的一個關聯所以說AI這個部分在你審核標準以後一定要面臨不一樣"},{"start":10956.264,"end":10956.645,"text":"．綜合AI的學術論理"},{"start":10971.021,"end":10996.274,"text":"他們就做得比你人腦收集資料更好我們是基植於CHAP GPT幫我們收集資料之後往上去發展我們的腦袋瓜 對不對這是他們的觀點這是產業界但是學業界學界你怎麼來如果我今天學生透過CHAP GPT幫我整理一套的訊息那你這個部分你的國科會的論文當中他的學術倫理你怎麼樣來界定你們現在所界定的學術倫理違反是只有八大項那請問用CHAP GPT"},{"start":10998.755,"end":11015.681,"text":"來幫助我做很多資料的收集這個部分我的引用什麼樣的標準這一部分的確像委員講的因為CHAT GPT它最厲害的能力就是它可以生成生成一些本來就不存在的東西那你怎麼辦你現在要不要改你的這個樣態所以將來我們的確要減少你不要將來現在馬上就命令"},{"start":11021.383,"end":11028.289,"text":"現在馬上就明你現在只有這八大項完全沒有辦法符合他的這樣的這算你會造成學校老師跟學生非常大的落差而且你還要去比對現在那個比對之前因為碩士造假比對大家覺得好像好像一句話現在CHECKGBT我當你承認他可以幫你來做很多資料搜尋的時候整個的樣態又不一樣了不是未來現在馬上好不好現在馬上"},{"start":11047.905,"end":11066.297,"text":"馬上就必須要立即做出來,否則我們現在指導的學生我都不知道該怎麼辦。我都不想他指導我出來的學生我怎麼樣跟他做比對,現在已經不是比對的問題。當你承認checkGPT可以幫學生做那個文獻探討的部分,可以幫他做收集的時候,我的citation我要怎麼弄?我要怎麼弄?"},{"start":11068.138,"end":11074.48,"text":"現在6月是碩士論文的旺季好不好 這個東西很重要 然後接下來我還是要問一下嘛 對不對 那你現在原計畫我要請問一下這是你們國科會內部的一個問題當初有個原計畫就是推動可信任生成的AI計畫 112年你們編列了2億多 主委知道這件事吧"},{"start":11095.929,"end":11105.732,"text":"接下來 對不起 你們的前任政委要下台之前也不過在一個禮拜時間馬上編列了7900近8000萬的一個經費過去國科會如果大型的計畫上億的話通常要半年的審核起碼很少數只有一個月的審核你現在是一個禮拜為什麼有這麼急你一個禮拜之內就要求你認賬而且還是沒有經過這樣的一個程序馬上編列8000萬"},{"start":11120.655,"end":11131.26,"text":"你不覺得有這麼急嗎?這個對他說是不是你的挑戰?你不需要一個禮拜之內認定這八千萬的這樣子的一個所謂的計畫這不符合你們過去的一個流程喔你知道這件事嗎?回去查一下吧"},{"start":11137.196,"end":11149.806,"text":"我還是跟委員報告一下齁,因為那個台的,我們一開始發台的是用跨部會屬科法接近是一年的計劃,到今年4月截止,那麼我只告訴你你112、110,你這個流程上面就在我們的新主委上任之前的一個禮拜就核准了這個8000萬的短期計劃,這個流程基本上跟你們過去國會是不一樣的"},{"start":11159.173,"end":11165.74,"text":"所以我必須要很清楚的知道接下來嘛你看嘛你們現在做這個計畫當中你百分之五十要預算說模型經驗我沒有問題百分之八千多萬百分之二十要再收集資料你卻這樣的配比還有你的素養你有百分之二十的經費發在素養上面這個素養的應用你要不要解釋一下還有包括哪些的語言有台語、客語等等之類的"},{"start":11181.536,"end":11183.799,"text":"他是有哪些產業我要求一個禮拜之內把這一個最新在你上任之前一個禮拜就核定的八千萬還有包括你這些的經費的分配給我一個非常完整的報告可以嗎"},{"start":11194.151,"end":11203.682,"text":"可以可以一個禮拜之內請給我還有我剛就特別提到嘛國會負責很多學術界的一個分配好那我要問一下嘛你們現在有這麼大筆經費欸你們真的很像是過手過手的財神一樣啊你們經費完畢之後就給這些地方那我接下來要問這幾個經費當中下面一頁因為時間有關"},{"start":11212.812,"end":11231.708,"text":"這麼多的幾項功我只是隨便舉出幾個你們在很多的各部門當中他們本身就可以做計畫了卻來跟我們國科會申請錢你不覺得這個資源有點重複嗎?數法部本身下面你們所屬的這些機構裡面本身就可以申請你們自己的一個經費為什麼還要來跟國科會?你們這樣資源難道不會有重疊的一個問題嗎?"},{"start":11236.292,"end":11260.742,"text":"不會有資源的部會發包給部會你的資源到底會不會重疊不是依照現在的體制你們合法但是基本上面這個部分就是我所強調的重疊更不要說下面一個還有包括你們的委員會裡面的你們的最下面最後最後的部分你們的這個很多人不對再往下面看到再往下面最後"},{"start":11262.626,"end":11273.92,"text":"還有一個在最後的裡面我們還提到你們的很多子計劃很多單位因為我們都是屬於學校不是這一張我們很多的學校裡面就告訴我們你們的科技辦公室裡面的計劃先給你們的這個科證中心同樣是計劃主持人"},{"start":11278.726,"end":11282.909,"text":"從學校借調然後掌管的這樣一個計畫當中再發包回去給很多時候的子計畫是給一些相關的單位我只認為我為什麼要特別提出來因為國科會我們都在國科會申請計畫計畫的分配計畫的公平性還有一個也擁有大型的計畫當中又分包下去給原來的學校甚至給自己的徒子徒孫這樣的一個系統就是我們說的學法的系統這是學術界覺得非常需要改進的"},{"start":11308.248,"end":11333.083,"text":"所以我認為如果國科會下面所屬的計畫主持人是來自於你們國科會本身然後呢他下面如何把這樣的總計畫發包給下去的子計畫的這一些部分我都要有一段完整的報告讓我們了解是不是我們的資源分配是符合公平透明跟公正的一個原則可以嗎謝謝委員我也不喜歡這個樣子對私生關係應該要迴避國科會內部如果有這種事情我絕對要禁止"},{"start":11337.639,"end":11338.883,"text":"聽到了齁?大家都聽到了齁?對不要養成這種學法"},{"start":11344.821,"end":11350.044,"text":"主委,這就是我們在學術界裡面在申請經費當中每個人就要往總計畫裡面去做那總計畫那個頭是誰?你要師承於那個總計畫你就覺得你可以得到一些子計畫我因為有很多子計畫完畢之後我不管在升等在未來的這個聲望上面我可以但是就只有掌握在幾個子計畫你們下面裡面有非常多從學校借調過來的這裡面整個的系統我希望主委能夠給我一個完整的報告"},{"start":11375.301,"end":11375.321,"text":"吳祖偉"},{"start":11403.076,"end":11405.819,"text":"數位經濟產值預估兩年內要破新台幣一兆元國發會宣布打造軟硬體一條龍的產業鏈並籌備"},{"start":11418.692,"end":11442.688,"text":"AI的生態園區目前AI的生態園區朝北部朝南部本席在前天在經濟委員會質詢了國發會主委的時候我們談到台中市是積極在推動我們高科技的科研區的一個規劃目前大家都如火如荼而且非常的加油"},{"start":11443.328,"end":11466.746,"text":"所以也請國發會將台中納入設置AI的這個生態園區那國發會主委在前天他也一併答應一定會將台中納入規劃那所以本席要請教國科會主委您的看法呢那AI的園區是不是應當要落子在我們的台中請說明"},{"start":11467.967,"end":11481.981,"text":"我們全國各地方政府其實都是在積極在爭取我們會依據各地方的產業特色只要是符合發展的條件的我們在規劃當中都會納入絕對不會偏薄"},{"start":11485.124,"end":11501.393,"text":"對 所以國發委主委認為臺中的條件非常的優那麼我們也看到黃創辦人他昨天在發表AI主題演講的時候他提到16所大學其中的名單裡頭就有我的母校我非常的光榮我們的東海大學"},{"start":11504.155,"end":11506.456,"text":"東海大學也是中部地區唯一一所"},{"start":11533.654,"end":11534.635,"text":"我們一定會協助的"},{"start":11558.378,"end":11586.295,"text":"同時最近包括了輝達的總部大家都如火如荼在爭取在我們這樣子的條件我相信臺中也是最好的選擇地點我們也希望能夠提案的時候也能夠完成落子在我們的臺中我相信臺中有這個條件也有這個能力去發揚光大主委你的看法呢"},{"start":11586.935,"end":11607.421,"text":"主要是回答他認為適合設置他研發總部的地點我們都一定會盡量協助地方來完成對,台中你也是協助我們盡量會協助所以我們也希望得到美好的一個成果那接下來本期要針對我們今天的主題也就是詐騙"},{"start":11608.641,"end":11609.241,"text":"我們看到末端就很緊張"},{"start":11638.098,"end":11658.851,"text":"檢察官、法官也被詐騙搞的案件就多得不得了在這樣的情況之下我想在根源最重要請教主委跟訴發部針對於AI以及反詐騙的工作結合你政府要怎麼樣來協助在技術上面你可以怎麼樣來協助打詐請做說明"},{"start":11660.239,"end":11660.899,"text":"數位發展部列席"},{"start":11686.224,"end":11687.285,"text":"你讓他有一個標的物非常清楚吧?"},{"start":11709.055,"end":11735.948,"text":"同樣也是我們現在在內政委員會在審查的這個打詐專法那針對於網路的這個社群媒體的這個廣告那將來也會要求這個網路社群平台不管是Meta也好Google也好採取類似實名制的要經過一定的認證之後他才能放廣告換句話說他的廣告來源是可以追尋的也可以清楚來源他辨別他的真偽那這個是速發部不管在法規方面或在技術方面會盡力的朝這個方向來做"},{"start":11736.948,"end":11760.003,"text":"謝謝你的回答你針對這三項也是我們之前討論過我也希望你將你們的這個相識的書面資料給本席他的進程怎麼做方案怎麼做書面資料給本席我們一起希望民眾可以得到安心那最後一個議題就是諸位本席要請教AI的時代來臨剛剛我跟郭部長經濟部長討論他說他上任後要盤點電力"},{"start":11764.085,"end":11792.15,"text":"但他今天說如果AI加入他還要重新盤點他的時間點在7月中旬7月15日這個會期結束前他會告訴社會大眾我們的電力夠不夠我們的能源配比要怎麼做所以一樣的議題要請教主委也就是目前我們看到我們的電力的部分平均用電平均我們是增長大概會每年大概2.7%"},{"start":11793.67,"end":11810.661,"text":"但是經濟部有告訴我們如果加入AI是會超過3%以上在這樣的情況之下電力跟能源是我們最重要的主軸所以本席要請教吳主委也就是我們推動的AI的園區那裡的電力的穩定"},{"start":11812.722,"end":11816.885,"text":"這非常重要所以你們整個橫向的組織當然也不是只有你國防會經濟部、環境部如果有要檢討非核家園包括修法等我把這個議題提出因為電力等於是國力你可以贊同這個議題嗎"},{"start":11831.346,"end":11831.386,"text":"同意"},{"start":11845.871,"end":11849.892,"text":"所以在橫向的時候他們在研議因為本席告訴你這個時間點也就是郭部長剛剛回答7月15號以前他會將這個能源配比跟將這個電力的需求量要告訴社會大眾所以這個一個多月的時間是非常重要我也希望您扮演一個重要的角色 好嗎"},{"start":11869.699,"end":11871.201,"text":"是 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝楊瓊英委員 呃 諸位請回 我們接下來請林楚英委員"},{"start":11887.875,"end":11892.517,"text":"謝謝美麗的主席有請我們國科會吳朱偉以及我們數發部葉長賜請吳朱偉葉次長"},{"start":11902.711,"end":11908.255,"text":"主委好我想其實對於AI的世代來臨全球都在面臨準備剛剛包括我們主席有特別提到世界各國現在都針對AI在制定相關的法令但是我們都知道在AI的這個過程當中包括像日本他2024年要推智慧財產權的推進計畫"},{"start":11922.503,"end":11929.304,"text":"主要的原因就是AI的過程當中到底哪些部分是AI生成而這些生成的過程當中有沒有牽涉到所謂剛剛也有前面一些委員講到的抄襲那麼在這個部分到底我們怎麼樣來保護智慧財產那麼您在報告當中也寫了但是怎麼樣的來制定尤其是我現在知道蠻多不只是論文有些學生現在是直接用ChatGPT來寫作業我想這個大概很多家長都知道"},{"start":11952.028,"end":11968.273,"text":"甚至於老師也知道那這樣的東西到底還有沒有著作權他先去爬梳了別人的東西之後畫畫成他自己的我先一併問完因為我認為他也許沒有答案但是現在我們接下來的下一個世代的時候我們如何來制定這恐怕也不是只有郭"},{"start":11969.053,"end":11973.837,"text":"國發會、國科會、書發部甚至於經濟部這可能是一個大災問但是有一個我們現在面臨的問題是什麼最近這幾天在炒說行動基地台的增設是不是在監控全民我現在就一個大家每天都會用到的Google MapGoogle Map為什麼可以告訴我們哪邊是藍線哪邊是黃線哪邊是紅線主委你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":11996.294,"end":12014.546,"text":"因為我們所有的使用Google Map的人都同意他收集你的那個位置資料所以他就可以算出你的移動的速度是這是因為你同意的對所以你就可以得到他的服務是這是商業運作的模式好所以一定要當事人同意他才可以"},{"start":12015.951,"end":12033.122,"text":"這個原則大家都非常清楚但是如果沒有知道這個過程的時候大家就會說我被Google監控了嗎可是你可能不知道你在使用這個APP之前坦白說不管你要不要啦你要用他就跟你說來請打勾有幾個人真正的去看過"},{"start":12036.664,"end":12041.306,"text":"沒有你說不同意他就不讓你用就這樣對沒錯同樣的就像我們在使用很多的電信還有網路的時候都是同樣一個狀況你同意給他用用完之後他怎麼用你不知道那麼接下來我們在運用AI技術的時候同樣的也會面臨這樣的問題那就是我在訓練你AI到底是訓練還是監控這條紅線踩在哪裡我不知道在場的不論是"},{"start":12066.479,"end":12084.908,"text":"主委又或者數位部有想好了嗎?有方向了嗎?因為我們知道的是前一任的吳主委他說要慢慢來但是今天主委您說10月份我們就要來處理距離10月份現在只剩下不到三個多月"},{"start":12087.369,"end":12104.336,"text":"這個部分如何來化解疑慮但是又如何不會被無限上綱其實本席的意思是現在因為監控的題目剛好被拿出來是監控還是被做科技運用科技使用你說"},{"start":12105.436,"end":12120.416,"text":"人民如果同意就沒有這個問題但是現在我們都知道很多應用業者的潛規則其實某種程度上我們已經先同意他使用了他不會再來問我第二次我要拿去做其他事"},{"start":12120.896,"end":12142.043,"text":"甚至於很多方間的通訊、通信、網路、科技的業者他們在使用我們的這些通訊的資料的時候我們都知道如果是大數據去識別化它其實是一個寶藏那在這樣的過程當中到底科技運用跟資訊監控的那一條線在哪裡?"},{"start":12143.571,"end":12162.244,"text":"報告委員,委員舉的這個Google Map的確是非常好的例子也就是說在產業發展以及人權的保障上面我們要取得一個平衡因為這個是很好用的一個軟體很好用的服務所以我們如果限制他不准收集我們的資料那他就不可能會有GoogleMap這種導航還有入礦的這個服務"},{"start":12165.126,"end":12192.174,"text":"但是我們要允許他使用你的資料的時候我們法律上一定要規範他不能夠拿去做非法的用途其他我們還有很多其他法律也不是只有AI基本法那些法律就是你濫用個資的時候我們要有辦法去制裁把他繩之以法所以讓Google他就不會去做他不會去洩漏這些個資所以我們就是同步的希望能夠規範在運用這些的時候要遵守我們所有的法律"},{"start":12192.614,"end":12205.797,"text":"除了遵守法律法規之外另外的我也提醒主委就是我們現在全球化的情況底下我們各行各業使用AI或是未來使用AI或者是接下來這一半我們現在使用到網際網路的部分很多的產業都在運用這些大數據也要跟產業來做座談瞭解產業真正的需求而不是因為最近在野黨在打監控一個話倒下下來"},{"start":12219.741,"end":12220.021,"text":"主委請回"},{"start":12250.503,"end":12250.663,"text":"范雲委員"},{"start":12266.138,"end":12278.206,"text":"委員好主委應該是快午安了我想今天早上大家的主題都非常的就是集中了那就是從黃仁勳然後AI產業的革新那想知道就是國科會在這裡扮演的角色以及準備的程度那因為剛剛有委員好像質疑說我們國科會這個泰德計畫是不是有什麼弊端或者是是不是什麼徒子徒孫"},{"start":12295.217,"end":12312.604,"text":"我是想釐清一下因為我理解我們之前的前主委講到泰德計畫的時候他的發動是科技匯報這個部分就是說相關的國科會是扮演一定的角色是因為我們前主委的身份重疊所以他是一個國家隊的概念這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":12317.744,"end":12336.682,"text":"國家隊我不知道它的定義是什麼您還沒有了解這個部分喔 那個主委您功課要再加強喔因為我想要澄清一下至少我知道我們那個前主委講的部分的時候是一個國家隊的概念所以它基本上跟國科會一般的計畫申請的方式是不大一樣的"},{"start":12337.383,"end":12362.146,"text":"因為一般請請方式我也申請過國科會超過10次的研究案初審、複審各方面其實是非常嚴謹的就是主計畫、子計畫這部分都有相關的規定所以任何學術領域、政治領域可能都有學霸、政霸但是國科會的整個審查公開透明沒有得到計畫的人還可以申訴等等這應該都是非常嚴謹的吧是"},{"start":12362.867,"end":12364.348,"text":"我那時候回答就是說有這種私生關係給計畫這個是不好的"},{"start":12381.323,"end":12383.445,"text":"主計劃本來就可以自己找子計劃的人那他被審查的話本來就是都要經過初審、複審這樣沒錯吧?"},{"start":12398.937,"end":12425.131,"text":"是 那個一定程序一定都有所以如果主計畫他要找跟他一個很熟的就是教授剛好是他學生這不在你們規範的範圍嘛重點就是說審查的過程是公開、透明、初審、複審是這樣沒錯吧這個應該都有可是我剛剛坐在那邊聽就是會冒出冷汗想說好像怪怪的哪裡好啦 那剛剛重點是在講泰德那泰德是國家隊沒錯吧"},{"start":12428.215,"end":12431.701,"text":"所以他又跟我們一般國歌會的計畫申請的方式不一樣嗎?這樣沒錯吧?"},{"start":12434.255,"end":12462.861,"text":"應該是不一樣請主委多了解一下這整個泰德的這個國家隊的這個過程那你們的網頁其實都有說得非常清楚之前我們前主委也都有跟大家解釋過那我今天想問的是其實剛剛很多人問過這個 AI 基本法那因為你已經公開提出說是10月底前嘛可是那個部分應該是你們國會會提出還沒有到行政院通過吧還沒有就是要提到行政院"},{"start":12463.541,"end":12472.591,"text":"那我了解喔那我想今天因為前面的委員都問過了我也是想提醒的事情是其實歐盟的這個AI Act花了4年的時間那我們台灣從發想到就是您要提出的這個時間準備了多久可以跟我們大家講一下嗎"},{"start":12484.462,"end":12499.669,"text":"所以一年之內我們能不能夠趕上歐盟而且剛剛很多委員講過其實AI的發展也是日新月異我一方面期待也希望盡快可是一方面其實也會擔心就是說到底準備好了沒有那先回來講那您認為這個如果台灣要有一個AI最核心要處理的是什麼"},{"start":12509.753,"end":12521.84,"text":"有一個法就是要規範您認為最核心要規範的是什麼東西最核心要規範的就是能夠盡量去防止假訊息詐騙這些防止假訊息詐騙是然後能夠同時促進現在台灣AI產業的發展"},{"start":12528.204,"end":12530.466,"text":"我自己的看法就是歐盟的AI的重點是在風險分級管理"},{"start":12549.94,"end":12559.107,"text":"您們現在是用指引的方式處理我覺得是非常好可是這裡面滿最重要的就是要區分風險低的AI相關的部分跟風險高的不知道主委您覺得風險高的AI相關的應用是在哪個領域"},{"start":12571.68,"end":12600.138,"text":"風險最高的?風險最高的就是我剛剛提到能夠會侵犯人權會侵犯人權也是啊會造成傷害在根據歐盟的這個風險就是最高的其實就是嚴重威脅人民的生命生活等基本權利不能接受的風險那包含就是可能抓取個人臉部影像像我們知道對岸就有做這種那這種就是被需要被禁止使用的等等"},{"start":12600.618,"end":12626.5,"text":"那風險低的最低的您認為風險最低的AI的應用是什麼?那個就是大家不喜歡的一大堆的垃圾郵件、廣告等等然後在什麼藝術表現上面做假這些這個風險也許不高就是沒有侵犯到造成人的傷害但是它也是不應該的事情"},{"start":12626.94,"end":12652.1,"text":"了解齁那在這個歐盟的這個部分齁時間到了風險低的就像聊天機器人比如說跟消費者互動的這其實就是資訊提供但是喔這個裡面也要公開透明喔要讓互動的人知道這是跟一個機器人在互動然後如果是deepfake的話那就必須要揭露這是deepfake比如這兩天我們有看到習近平告訴大家要記得六四齁這個就是齁就是說"},{"start":12656.543,"end":12682.038,"text":"講話的聲音就像他在講那這種就要揭露他是低風險的所以我想風險分級管理是重要的啦那歐盟的AI有個重點就是剛剛講到的禁止使用的部分是最嚴重那還有一個就是創建沙盒鼓勵創新產業需要創新可是又有一個人工智慧監管沙盒可以在可控的環境中減輕任何的風險識別風險"},{"start":12683.719,"end":12710.465,"text":"這也是歐盟的AI就是基本法裡面的一個重點那我想這部分大家的期待都有那另外一個剛剛林一金委員跟林楚瑩委員都有問到的我也非常關心的就是他跟我們民主任性跟新聞的關係因為新聞如果在AI這裡面被侵權的話那他沒有辦法維持產業的健康的話我們就只剩下假訊息了"},{"start":12710.905,"end":12738.408,"text":"因為新聞至少還有專業的篩選過有編輯內部的流程所以這都是需要資源的投入那如果新聞的產業受到傷害然後沒有辦法保護自己的不管是叫做著作權或等等的話那其實會對台灣的民主任性有很大的傷害那我剛剛我們講到的泰德那我不知道您曉不曉得紐約的美國八家報紙向OpenAI跟微軟提告"},{"start":12738.848,"end":12739.329,"text":"主委您知道嗎?"},{"start":12750.667,"end":12770.552,"text":"這個特定的事件我不知道那您可以多了解一下顯然主委在AI這題上還可以很多事那我想我們的泰德因為您剛剛不大知道如果您不會回答可以請您的部署回答我們的泰德訓練過程中網站都有寫有用中央社ETtoday、光華雜誌、金週刊有沒有付費授權呢?"},{"start":12772.3,"end":12801.126,"text":"對,我們剛剛談如果需要付費我們都有付費對,非常好其實我跟你們所知的我知道你們有處理我覺得這是一個非常好的一個示範就是你們非常的告訴大家你的訓練資料中只要是商業的你們有處理相關的議題我覺得這個部分是最佳示範所以主委可以肯定一下你們下面這個泰德團隊目前有做一個最佳示範那歐盟的AI Act也要求要遵守歐盟著作權相關的"},{"start":12801.886,"end":12801.946,"text":"翁曉琳委員"},{"start":12841.874,"end":12843.625,"text":"主席好,有請主委好,有請吳主委"},{"start":12849.11,"end":12869.957,"text":"委員好是吳主委好很高興我們在立法院這個場合碰面那過去我都稱您吳副校長然後也很敬佩您在這個在資通電機方面的這個成就那今天您擔任國科會主委那想必責任非常重大尤其是針對現在大家談的這個AI"},{"start":12873.118,"end":12873.158,"text":"是嗎?是。"},{"start":12889.068,"end":12903.211,"text":"對,因為我看了這個現在的委託國科會來研擬AI基本法然後當成是AI法制的主要負責的機關應該是在112年4月份的時候當時有召開一個協調會議跨部會的會議然後當時就訂定了就是說是由國科會來負責AI法制分組"},{"start":12914.413,"end":12929.481,"text":"我必須說這個決定應該是在舊政府的時候的決定那對於新政府的這個現在你們新政府剛上台那對於像這樣子的一個分工不知道您是否覺得是適合的適合的"},{"start":12932.594,"end":12942.117,"text":"是適合的可是吳主委坦白說我剛剛進來我聽到您跟前委員的質詢對話其實我很擔心因為我認為其實國科會在過去這麼多年來其實並沒有主管像AI基本法這麼重要的法也就是你們目前主管的法律有哪些可以告訴我嗎以前應該我們有協助過科技基本法還有呢"},{"start":12961.926,"end":12987.659,"text":"科技基本法的架構其實跟AI基本法還是不一樣你看這個人工智慧基本法草案現在幾個委員的提出然後乃至於這個日後行政院要提出來的相關版本坦白說我很懷疑就是國科會到底有沒有這個能力可以去承擔這個法制的重責大任以目前國科會的法制你們叫法制處嗎還是叫法制組"},{"start":12989.462,"end":13016.904,"text":"你們是法規會還是就是你們現國科會裡面負責法制的單位是叫什麼單位我們是前瞻處前瞻處是前瞻處裡面有多少個法律專業的科學各位報告那國科會裡面內部有法規會然後我們前瞻處裡面呢我們的一科負責相關的法規的一些嚴禮所以呢目前來講的話有關基本法或太空法"},{"start":13017.54,"end":13039.087,"text":"那現在最近要推動的相關的這個AI基本法那都是在前瞻處裡面的我們一科的這個同仁一科裡面有幾位是真的法律專業的同仁那目前來講話所以我們科長的話以外呢我本身來講話在這方面也有一些策略那我們會結合相關的我們內部的法規會還有我們國會的相關因為我來之前我大概上網"},{"start":13045.509,"end":13064.792,"text":"你們國科會的法規會裡面只有一個應該是一個科長吧一個科長而且還今天執行秘書然後再一個專任助理好像頂多只有三位同仁那麼這個法你剛剛講的那個前瞻處我想大概裡面真的學法律的專業的同仁也不多"},{"start":13065.353,"end":13083.2,"text":"但像這樣的一個重要的法案尤其它未來它是跟整個產業的發展緊密相關的其實我真的是認為說比較適合的主管機關可能還是放在經濟部會比較適合甚至我真覺得數位發展部大概也沒有那個能力可以未來做統整這個去督促各個機關來訂定相關法案的這樣的一個任務你們看在這個"},{"start":13095.185,"end":13097.267,"text":"你們報告第12頁裡面有講說未來國科會會後續持續追蹤各部會的法規修訂進度"},{"start":13102.765,"end":13121.243,"text":"我真的很懷疑國科會之後會有這個能力可以去追蹤其他部會的法規修訂進度嗎這個層級難道不應該拉到行政院的層級至少政務委員吧由政務委員來督導看看各部會有沒有配合AI基本法來制定相關法規我會認為比較適合"},{"start":13126.548,"end":13144.9,"text":"我們在行政院現在有三位政委其實是一起在負責相關的一些法規的制定所以還有那個林明鑫政委他是法律專長然後我們還有國發會的劉靜卿吳主委這麼說好了我基本上我是希望能夠減輕國科會的負擔"},{"start":13146.681,"end":13150.784,"text":"國科會應該是要把你們的這個任務放在更重要怎麼樣去規劃國家的前瞻技術科學的研究發展而不應該放在去制定這個AI基本法當成AI基本法的這個主管機關因為這不是你們的擅長這也不是你們的專業但是我覺得放在數發部也不適合"},{"start":13171.018,"end":13171.078,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13186.3,"end":13186.32,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13204.502,"end":13220.017,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝翁曉琳委員主委請回好 我們接下來請高金素美委員高金素美高金素美委員不在我們請鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前委員不在我們請邱志偉委員"},{"start":13231.942,"end":13235.312,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國科會吳朱偉好 有請吳朱偉好 葉次長"},{"start":13241.141,"end":13262.671,"text":"委員好吳主委你好從報告來看人才的衝勢在你們在2018、2021臺灣AI行動計畫裡推動成果臺清教程AI創新研究中心那除了這四所大學之外還沒有在未來比如說中山或其他國立大學有設立AI創新研究中心的計畫"},{"start":13264.7,"end":13284.612,"text":"那個計畫是在好幾年前啊現在我們就是經過那段時期的發展以後其實現在我們國會資助的全國的這個AI的研究各個學校都已經有了應該每一個國立大學、世紀大學都要普設所謂的這個AI創新研究中心你們這個經費你們來協助或這個中央來協助那你們在"},{"start":13289.375,"end":13290.758,"text":"從2023到2026的這個發展主軸裡面也提倡人才的優化跟擴增嘛 對不對"},{"start":13297.913,"end":13299.574,"text":"你另外在職跟就業培訓的這個面向你幫他拿走"},{"start":13320.083,"end":13321.365,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":13339.418,"end":13353.804,"text":"總統小企業導入AI轉型其實是需要我們的科技產業來協助你怎麼做你要講齁我有講過我在上任時的那個記者會我已經宣布我在三個月內要提出這個方案"},{"start":13355.245,"end":13355.465,"text":"蘇發部 葉市長"},{"start":13377.884,"end":13403.125,"text":"你們報告裡面AI生態園區這很好我瞭解是在北又一座南一座對不對我們大概不會用我們的概念就是我們這個當然第一個是部長提出的概念我還在跟國發會在商量國發會有提出這個概念在他們這個工作報告裡面有提到所以這個未來你們急速要進速去推動我沒有意見"},{"start":13404.346,"end":13429.662,"text":"那南我是強力希望設在高雄是首先跟委員報告就是我們現在這個園區的規劃會著重在生態而不是園區當然是生態啦生態意思就是說這些產業它不管在哪裡我們希望能夠投注資源讓它能夠串接在一起所以可能重要的地方不是選址而是說這些產業要提供給它足夠的算力足夠的資料跟足夠的但是你要有相關的產業都在周邊嘛"},{"start":13431.489,"end":13458.565,"text":"對當然產業的聚落的實體發展因為特別是AI產業它跟國際的廠大概都會有很大的連結我們不會強制要求這個某一個廠家他搬到哪一個地方去我瞭解但是你要現狀有AI聚落已經成形了或未來會有很多的對它就是會為我們重點投資的對象招商能力對這個AI或者是這個半導體招商最積極最有效率就是陳其邁市長嘛"},{"start":13460.266,"end":13473.921,"text":"對嗎?你在這個軟體園區,然後在我這個角落科學園區都積極招商嘛。事業大廠你說輝達有可能在這個設預算中心,未來這個Super Michael也可能嘛,對不對?"},{"start":13474.942,"end":13477.123,"text":"全體委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":13502.828,"end":13521.874,"text":"只要有AI的…天理就是說我們要知道天理變幻莫測但是可超出在我的我們要積極努力所以我一而再再而三希望說你們慎重考慮設在這個高雄最好的條件"},{"start":13523.058,"end":13541.266,"text":"我們不會設立一個實體的園區但是只要有AI產業的地方那高雄市我們非常重要的一個部分我們副市長羅達是有點清楚啊對 那另外我們這個前任的這個次長也在當高雄的副市長所以我們都有非常的好的聯繫沒有問題所以這個再一分鐘齁你那個VPN的問題啊"},{"start":13543.82,"end":13562.018,"text":"VPN的問題這個怎麼樣去防止這個比如說你要怎麼樣導入AI預防性通報下架你們都有這個情況現在很多都是用VPN繼續在使用這個論壇那你們對VPN這部分還有很多的廣告這變成監管的漏洞這個你們怎麼去處理"},{"start":13563.689,"end":13588.262,"text":"首先跟委員報告我們的理解就是VPN它並不是一個產業那很多產業那它都有可以產出VPN那你們辦法沒有不是產業就不能管制嗎?它沒有辦法就任何大家對於這個資訊系統大概有一定的能力的人它都可以產出VPN那只是說我們不管是從兒少角度來看的話重點是說我們要找到如果是這個兒少主管機關發現的錯誤或是有害的資訊"},{"start":13592.043,"end":13608.21,"text":"第8條就是說你們可以主動去出席調查那個是從ISP來做阻斷那不是VPN的問題相同的概念啦我希望你們積極可以主動出席去調查啦而少的性剝削的專業認定是在衛福部你們跟衛福部再去討論一下怎麼樣把這個做到最好的效果"},{"start":13617.914,"end":13636.9,"text":"其實就它預防通報下降在最快時間之內完成對 我們會盡快加快這個行政程序沒有問題另外你這個訴發部你現在要通報這個打詐打詐的這個通報網對不對上個月建制打爆通報網通報查詢網那你跟這警政署的這個這個全民詐騙 全民防騙網哪裡不一樣"},{"start":13639.761,"end":13639.981,"text":"議員吳誠文、數位發展部"},{"start":13659.368,"end":13659.688,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員"},{"start":13680.923,"end":13681.784,"text":"蘇清泉委員徐欣穎委員蘇發部"},{"start":13702.006,"end":13719.128,"text":"委員好市長好本期本來這個可能沒有要找您但剛剛聽到我們邱委員的質詢我想招商第一名連續三年五年我可以先請教你全台灣招商第一名是哪個縣市"},{"start":13720.209,"end":13731.856,"text":"這是有統計的新竹縣新竹的科學園區我想這也是全國知名的剛剛講到輝達黃仁勳總裁昨天才一個新聞他要來新竹縣落腳所以AI園區最重要"},{"start":13746.104,"end":13773.514,"text":"有先天後天的條件跟資源的新竹縣所以我請您您是剛上任嗎?不是本來就一直在數位部那很好啊那您應該可以了解新竹科學園區的資源那邊的廠商加上我們那邊的腹地所以我花一點點時間也希望次長可以來了解你們在做整個的規劃的時候新竹縣"},{"start":13774.494,"end":13780.241,"text":"我們新竹地區呢也請你們慎重考慮我們所有的規劃都不會漏掉新竹對對對對對好謝謝請您回座本席請這個國科會吳主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":13790.424,"end":13807.637,"text":"委員好吳主委好本期看到你們的報告裡面有講到我們國科會從去年4月開始推動了一個叫可信任深層式的AI對話引擎這個是要念泰德嗎?"},{"start":13808.867,"end":13810.529,"text":"提經獲得初步成果,它已經可以與CHAT GPT-3.5相當。"},{"start":13831.247,"end":13850.373,"text":"哇 這個我要了解怎麼評估的還有現在我問了很多人好像沒有人知道那你已經說可以與確的GPT3.5相當你回答一下好不好主委剛上任還不知道這個可能前期研發的是不是這是副主委嗎我們執密科技辦的執行秘書"},{"start":13855.985,"end":13856.686,"text":"那我請教一下"},{"start":13881.886,"end":13895.871,"text":"哪些人用過?有哪些人用過?還在研發階段?我們現在在4月15日公開之後應該是有快18000個下載所以現在可以給我們大家去下載試用是不是?不過目前的使用用法您先確認是不是可以給大家下載我們在軟體都找得到嗎?"},{"start":13906.474,"end":13908.255,"text":"本席想請教主委,我們如果要發展AI"},{"start":13924.682,"end":13941.445,"text":"我們需要很大型的data center但是我們在整個計畫中大家我們對於這個資料中心運算中心好像沒有很大的琢磨像我們發展這個我們不需要很大的這些資料中心跟運算中心嗎"},{"start":13941.986,"end":13968.933,"text":"有,我們其實在新竹國網中心已經有了那是不是不好意思主席再給我30秒那所以我們如果資料中心需要有龐大的這個計算力呢相對也要有非常龐大穩定的電力所以台灣缺電嚴重呢這個對未來AI的發展是一大隱憂但這應該不是你們的事情所以我們會協調經濟部來做這個事"},{"start":13971.854,"end":13991.142,"text":"對 這個部分我想我在這邊也是提醒那所以你們的這個資料中心跟運算中心整個在國網中心國網中心是我們國研院下面的一個研發中心那它會建置資料中心資料中心裡面會有運算設備就是我們講的超級電腦會放在資料中心好 OK 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":14000.167,"end":14016.723,"text":"謝謝徐欣盈委員 謝謝好 主委請回我們接下來請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在我們請吳春成 吳春成 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":2392.684,"text":"建組活動的民調團之一參與臺灣各種活動還有臺灣之樂等等的檢討與展望我國雖然與中國因中國因事無法參與無法受邀與觀察員身份參與但經有持續強化與友好國家的雙邊意外合作增進臺灣參與國際衛生事務的機會雖然今年中國的打壓力道更大世衛團能難透過各種方式傳達臺灣人民"},{"start":2394.085,"end":2403.855,"text":"判處平等對待捍衛健康權的訴求．並展現臺灣議會的專業能量及貢獻．本部在賴總統的領導下．積極邁向健康臺灣的目標．將臺灣努力的成果未來將會在貢獻國際社會．並持續與外交部、僑委會等跨部會合作．結合國內民間團體、國際議會組織及親和團體．爭取更多的支持力道．"},{"start":2419.315,"end":2434.261,"text":"以卑劣共同致力增加臺灣及全球人民最高的健康潛力與福祉本部曾大願各委員之指教及監督在此競致精神並其各位委員繼續予以支持謝謝好"},{"start":2441.739,"end":2462.876,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案"},{"start":2468.741,"end":2474.063,"text":"10點30分,截止收案。現在請登記第一位委員,林月琴委員發言。有請我們邱部長。請邱部長。"},{"start":2489.998,"end":2517.322,"text":"部長早部長也辛苦了一上任就帶團到日內網為我們臺灣參加WHA的那個世界衛生大會做倡議那在這邊也向您致敬那這幾天有一個更重大的就是說輝達執行長王仁勳宣布要在我們的臺灣設所謂的超級電腦把臺灣打造成AI重鎮那我想這個消息對"},{"start":2518.082,"end":2545.212,"text":"國人來講都是非常振奮那臺灣有力量可是臺灣的力量來自於臺灣人的加倍的努力住在國外的華人都對於修映器臺灣人非常努力的那我們的外交也非常努力的雖然即便今天臺灣在加入國際組織受到中國打壓我們還是持續的去爭取加入目的是要把握"},{"start":2545.912,"end":2546.152,"text":"在生醫產業嗎?"},{"start":2574.691,"end":2599.743,"text":"就是我們的醫療或的是我們的製藥產業我想我們過去能夠今天傲視在世界各國大概有我想世界各個醫療的組織都很清楚台灣有兩點第一點是台灣擁有很高品質的醫療防疫的水準第二個我們又很樂意來"},{"start":2601.684,"end":2618.891,"text":"來幫忙很多需要的國家所以很多國家願意支持我們雖然政治的因素那我覺得我們要把握這樣的一個趨勢那相信我們的很多國內的精英都投入在醫藥為公衛相關的發展應該是"},{"start":2620.752,"end":2634.725,"text":"很有實力跟半導體一樣的一個發展來展現我們生意的實力有另外一個護國的神山好那也就是期待著部長在任內能夠多這個著力"},{"start":2637.117,"end":2651.426,"text":"過去呢事實上臺灣多次因為受到WHO的那個排斥跟中國對於訊息的掩蓋發生我們的疾病疫情在延誤防疫以致於國民大量死亡像1998年我們的長病毒71型"},{"start":2655.928,"end":2670.828,"text":"還有2003年的SARS可是我們都撐過來了那成為得以輸出防疫技術的優等生所以想問部長這邊那國際衛生組織的功能在串聯會員國然後在公共衛生的這個議題上達到資訊同步"},{"start":2673.427,"end":2699.772,"text":"以便即時防疫還有互相支援的效果可是臺灣不是WHO的會員連WHA都進不去以後我們未來如何確保在國際新的疫情發生時取得即時的那個資訊獲得所需要的技術跟資源好謝謝委員的質詢那我想我們臺灣人尤其臺灣的醫療團體絕對不是坐以待斃"},{"start":2704.061,"end":2707.629,"text":"我們這個目標可能達不到,那只是一個目標"},{"start":2709.107,"end":2732.732,"text":"但是我們維護全台灣2350萬個人民的健康權利我想所有在座的以及所有的醫療團體都是日以繼夜在努力的一個事情所以我們會有然後我們的醫療體系的韌性又夠他的偵察性也夠所以我們在不管是在第一線我舉個例子從在"},{"start":2735.273,"end":2755.927,"text":" COVID的時候,其實第一線,當然是我們很感謝我們機關署,像羅一鈞副署長能夠利用他的資訊能力,能夠早日發現到一堆信息。其實在那個時候已經很有第一線的醫師,已經都發現到有相關的一個發燒,不明發燒的問題。"},{"start":2758.956,"end":2782.738,"text":"那剛開始的時候有從大陸回來的數十萬個人百分之八十都跑到基層醫療去看那我們基層醫療在過去大家的能力包括我們在座的施行前委員理事長領導的團的整個醫療團隊其實在基層醫療扎下了很大的一個基礎所以馬上反應也反應也馬上舉行了"},{"start":2783.539,"end":2785.38,"text":"今年事實上牙醫師公會全國聯合會也"},{"start":2808.854,"end":2833.254,"text":"主團隨部長去日內瓦倡議他們召開了國際的研討會以外也拜訪了世界亞裔的聯盟和世界公共衛生組織聯盟和日內瓦大學民間團體事實上這麼樣去支持也這麼樣有活力可是相對的我不知道今天我們事實上是透過你的書面報告才看到說事實上本次的出訪成果非常豐碩"},{"start":2834.395,"end":2853.971,"text":"可是這些資訊都沒有辦法即時性的、系統性的傳回臺灣反而我們事實上是透過牙齒公共他們在當地的做的一些東西所以本席以為對國人的宣傳不足有損民眾的知情權所以會不會福布有沒有針對這個去做探討為什麼這資訊都沒有辦法即時的回到國內讓國人知道謝謝委員的質詢"},{"start":2861.019,"end":2872.652,"text":"在我的想像所有的信息應該馬上第一步就應該要給全國尤其像立法院是人民的代表機關以及新聞媒體其實"},{"start":2875.22,"end":2899.006,"text":"其實那個我們在臉書這一次我還是要感謝很多媒體他們真的是自己出錢文字記者還有錄影的這樣好幾對過去可以說是日以繼月把我們所有的能夠造的活動都盡量傳達是可是我們現在看到的就是一家民眾媒體其實我們有20篇的帖文"},{"start":2901.826,"end":2921.631,"text":"大概觸及的人是有七十一六萬的人互動的也有一萬多人所以其實在這個報告後面是不是可以再把報告我想如果委員有這樣的發現的話我們一定徹底檢討那因為聯合國大概也在宣誓2030年"},{"start":2922.771,"end":2951.953,"text":"那全民健康覆蓋那個UHC要達到90%可是被COVID-19打亂了所以他在2023年的9月的時候也發表一定要這樣子有這樣的一個決心那想問一下部長這張指標臺灣提早了35年就打標了那如果這個這事實上是衛福部公布的表單所以我們35年已經達標的話那未來要展現在跟國際的一個倡議所以想問說政府"},{"start":2952.473,"end":2972.253,"text":"未來如何協助?如果我們有這麼好的東西如何協助其他國家也能夠達標?是的,謝謝委員這個很好的問題第一個我們所謂的USC國外看起來是因為我們有全民健保所以都認為我們是USC的魔幻國家"},{"start":2973.354,"end":2994.984,"text":"可是當我們還是發現的在這樣的全民健保裡面有很多不管是在品質不管是在醫療人力的一個尊嚴跟收入其實都有相關的問題所以我想在座的很多委員也都發現這些問題一直在努力所以我認為在國內我們除了有因為是吸這種"},{"start":2996.344,"end":3014.072,"text":"還不錯的形象以外要落實到各級醫療都能夠去做以病人為中心的整合性的健康照顧體系去整合這個才是infrastructure才能夠在10年20年還能夠站到世界的舞台去所以我們要從"},{"start":3015.638,"end":3021.16,"text":"最後就有一個問題要請教部長就是說上中國的威脅無所不在那一直以來台灣很多企業也抱持因為要跟全球經濟"},{"start":3040.934,"end":3065.013,"text":"提示的脈絡合作所以大家都不排除跟中國有具有中國國企背景的企業合作那這個問題就會影響到企業界那切件當然包含衛福部所管轄的醫療跟醫藥產業那可是國人最擔心的是各自的外洩所以想問衛福部預告限制西藥批發零售業將當事人個人資料"},{"start":3066.653,"end":3085.592,"text":"國際傳輸到大陸的地區草案用意在禁止藥商洩漏臺灣民眾個資給中國所以這預計大概什麼時候實行那另外一個就要問的是只限制西藥的批發零售洩漏個資可是對於西藥的製造商醫院實驗室洩漏個資的問題"},{"start":3087.754,"end":3108.045,"text":"衛福部似乎有所缺肉,請問一下大概怎麼做?因為時間的關係,所以是不是這部分請...我想有關於這件事情,我們的立場第一個就是國家安全第一,個人的資料也是必須要保護的個人潛力,那有關於剛剛委員執行了這個相關的資料,我們也會在"},{"start":3113.1,"end":3114.661,"text":"國際參與事務要化被動為主動．防範中國功勞"},{"start":3139.462,"end":3140.482,"text":"邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請"},{"start":3163.477,"end":3191.848,"text":"部長好這是我們第一次詢答我想還是先恭喜你然後也謝謝你願意承擔這個重責大任謝謝是您帶領這個WHA團隊去參加然後我知道陳金輝委員、王振旭委員還有本黨的林玉君委員大家都有參與那我從他們的臉書上看到你們的行程非常的緊湊、非常的辛苦我想也謝謝你們能夠一起幫台灣的國際能見度做一些努力"},{"start":3193.849,"end":3220.867,"text":"在這一次的全球盛事當中WHA（我也注意到醫學生、藥學生還有工會學生他們組成的聯合會特別優秀的大學生們籌組了一個世界衛生大會的青年團去參加他們的活動記錄當中有提到一件事情讓我非常憂心他說WHO估計全球醫藥衛生工作者大概短缺1000萬人"},{"start":3223.308,"end":3239.834,"text":"我們都知道在全球化的浪潮上類似專業人員他們會做一個全球性的移動非常普遍同樣的工作跟服務內容多數人才難免去所謂的待遇比較好那就是說環境、生活品質比較理想的環境"},{"start":3240.994,"end":3241.134,"text":"好,謝謝委員的執行"},{"start":3269.588,"end":3287.936,"text":"我想第一個國會長敬佩委員能夠了解到青年軍他們在做什麼這是我們長輩對這些未來的國家的生意軍的一個關心這是很重要也是令人敬佩我們不管是在政府的單位或者過去我們在"},{"start":3290.796,"end":3315.823,"text":"醫師會相關的組織其實我們都花了不少的經費來協助這些青年菌但是他們發現了這個問題對,那他們在這第一個第二個他們發現的未來說會少了1000萬個醫療人員那這個部分可能我們要來看一下WHO裡面的報告他是在哪一個地區我想是在非洲呢非洲大概是非常的缺乏"},{"start":3318.133,"end":3335.3,"text":"不要說廢話,只是說我們婚姻這樣好了就是說因為他們也注意到這個問題那也許也請衛福部來做一個評估等一下我會告訴部長我們現在也有一些這個網站訊息是教導這醫療人員如何到國外去工作那我先回到趙護士的部分"},{"start":3336.48,"end":3364.106,"text":"臨床護理人員離職率將近12%離職原因包括三班制、生活品質甚至薪資待遇等等畢業後大概只有六成的護理師他們會就職、就業本席認為臺灣去外護理師已經進入非常嚴重的狀況新北上市還在關了很多床部長瞭解關床的這個聲音一直都存在我在天下雜誌的採訪中有發現就看到一個美國的那個"},{"start":3365.026,"end":3383.84,"text":"考上美國的RN就是註冊護理師那他表示他說過去在醫學中心他的年資大概是70萬然後他在地區大概是50萬那當然加上三班輪值等等那他認為部分一部分的病人有時候對這個付錢是老大有時候對護理人員不太客氣"},{"start":3384.5,"end":3408.739,"text":"所以他就去考試去補習班考試那考上了這個美國的這個所謂的那個RN那起薪是150萬台幣所以我想說有時候啦不太能怪責怪這些專業人員他們有時候要到國外尋求更覺得更理想的環境那我要告訴部長說現在有很多醫療人員包括醫師跟護理師都開始有一點點開始要做移民"},{"start":3409.54,"end":3437.278,"text":"外出工作那你如果從Google打關鍵字你會發現有很多教學的訊息告訴他們怎麼樣到澳洲怎麼樣到美國去擔任護理師醫師甚至專門有人代辦這件事情那我們真的非常擔心專業人員的流失是一件非常嚴重的問題如果人力不足將直接影響我們病人的照顧那就算我們一路外國的人力補充但是語言隔閡等等還是有很大的問題所以部長"},{"start":3438.338,"end":3453.865,"text":"這個部分你有在關心嗎?第一個官場的問題,我想各個層級、各個地區會有不一樣。我剛剛一開始就講說,我們一定要去落實、去了解、偵測"},{"start":3458.067,"end":3477.561,"text":"我們不能不使人間聯合所謂的關闖它有很多的模式而且關闖的時候所謂關闖或者是沒有收到住院費的時候其實有時候醫院也不太喜歡報上去所以我這個data要拿到的確是要花很多的工夫"},{"start":3477.881,"end":3487.347,"text":"不管新官上任嘛,就是說我們想你一上來就有太多的問題大概要去面對啦沒問題,這個部長這個一定會我們很擔心關床啊,病人沒得照顧那下一個問題就是說三班互併比,因為這次賴總統在競選時候有承諾"},{"start":3495.652,"end":3519.33,"text":"那其實我每天在這兩個月每天去查看其實到前幾天都還沒有上去不過本來都沒有三班護病筆只有這個全日的護病筆不過6月3號這個衛福部真的放上去了但一放就放一整年部長您知道其實什麼時候規定要通報嗎通報護病筆您知道日期嗎當然是你還沒有上任之前"},{"start":3521.002,"end":3548.673,"text":"我記得是7年8月去年7月左右,就是說其實一整年之後才開始提供所以真的這個是有一點落後才放上去因為事實上就是說我們要的是三班互併比那既然總統他有承諾說三班互併比要兩年內入法那現在剛剛我們看到說規劃是2025年那請問有沒有更仔細的一個可不可能提早或是更仔細的一個更詳細的立法這個時程呢"},{"start":3549.994,"end":3568.146,"text":"好,我想所有的政策都要考慮到人民真的醫療的需求,我們不能讓人民的健康有一天去延後,所以站在這樣的延遲之下,任何的政策我們都會找相關的單位來談,那上半部分比這個部分他的"},{"start":3569.181,"end":3597.473,"text":"他的定...他怎麼樣來定義我們一定找相關的,尤其是護理師其實三黨的候選人其實都有提到因為剛好執政黨的那個賴總統也有提到這部分那我只要提醒部長就是說這個有關這個盤點人力不足的醫院就是說人力有不足的醫院那是不是有開始進行這個補人力這個部分也是請衛福部要關心的那第二個一面現在是人力足夠的你也要有機制去看"},{"start":3598.793,"end":3599.413,"text":"護理人員平均待6年就離開"},{"start":3627.519,"end":3641.286,"text":"這個是我們真的是非常大的這個損失是是好謝謝部長那你知道近期這個永豐藥廠應該有跟上吧這個新聞沸沸揚揚生理食鹽水都不夠這個我看到石柱友上來了當然這個"},{"start":3642.346,"end":3661.186,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":3661.266,"end":3688.72,"text":"部長因為有一第一線的醫療人員到次長林次長的那個臉書留言說他們缺乏這些東西非常大的困難但是林次長卻用非常嘲諷的口吻說某些人站著說話不腰疼能找到更便宜的我親自到府簽約部長他已經是次長了喔他是政務官喔缺要是國家的問題喔你能夠約束他好好講話嗎"},{"start":3690.984,"end":3698.146,"text":"那另外我要談的是說謝謝石署長那共理會已經上週緊急開了這個處理我知道禮拜五還要繼續開類似的會議了也謝謝你但是就是說我們要檢討是說當然品質出問題不見得是只有要價問題但是你砍價然後砍價又造成品質刊率品質刊率就缺貨缺貨又要從國外進口更高價我希望它不要是個惡性循環那我承認這是永豐藥廠出問題"},{"start":3719.071,"end":3745.714,"text":"當然他本身要負很大的責任但是你想一家藥廠出問題但是全國都缺貨那署長是不是表示說其他的藥廠也不願意用同樣的價格來供應才會一家出問題全國出問題所以是不是還是無法完全排除費用或是一些相關的問題那署長現在有所謂的地板價我知道你已經在檢討那第一梯也在檢討"},{"start":3747.256,"end":3763.191,"text":"是不是說我知道跟醫藥界也有一些溝通那當過內容我們有去追蹤那是不是就是說可以就是說盡快提出這些相關的規定然後我們記取這一次的教訓不過部長那個署長他是五米之炊油"},{"start":3764.452,"end":3781.147,"text":"他的米要來自部長跟院長跟總統要給他有米啊他才能吹啊好嗎這一次有關第一批草案署長是不是能夠還是部長陳委員真的是長期在關心健保非常了解所以我必須找特別的專家跟你回答一下"},{"start":3781.767,"end":3804.216,"text":"你的DET你的藥品支付目標跟委員報告目前我們大概從兩個方向一個就是對於這個基本用藥就是Essential Medications基礎用藥那麼在國內的藥證是比較少的品項那麼我們可能會在國內製造的我們會排除在DET的每年的藥價檢討這是第一個這個要修這個藥價調整辦法"},{"start":3808.778,"end":3837.796,"text":"不過部長,欸事實上一家不夠喔一家出問題全部都出問題喔對我知道那個就是以那個張數在3張以下的品項就會全面那一個那一組啦那一組的我們就不調那第二個呢是對已經到地板價的部分那現在我們也已經在調查請他們反映看看有哪一些那麼成本上已經因為通貨膨脹或等等因素那麼需要重新調整的我們現在正在彙整這些資料"},{"start":3839.077,"end":3847.082,"text":"從兩個方面來著手反正在情報部長缺要是全國的問題請約束一下林市長的情緒發言謝謝陳昭芝委員發言接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":3863.853,"end":3889.046,"text":"謝謝主席,我請邱部長請邱部長 阿哥石崇良,石署長石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石署長 石"},{"start":3892.947,"end":3914.032,"text":"好這個是開工林邊的光電開工好下來跳下一張不要就不要下一張這個被起訴的叫做什麼名字"},{"start":3916.144,"end":3939.949,"text":"古聖徽這個是立洋科技的總裁他涉嫌賄賂跟能源署的跟臺南市政府金花旗的不當利益91億他是掛你的辦公室副主任有這件事情嗎?委員報告這是我那時候接我那時候是接那個習國勇委員那時候民進黨要成立一個服務"},{"start":3946.105,"end":3946.846,"text":"這個事業才被偵查終結"},{"start":3974.438,"end":4003.346,"text":"對,但是這張照片應該是很多年前的那個時候他早已經離開這個團隊了我們在新竹縣的團隊已經到台南工作我們從來沒有做過任何的聯絡所以我是覺得你要小心啦人家要隨便掛你的主任、副主任在那邊洗一洗你不然這樣怎麼洗都不知道搞不好哪一天你會被傳訊好,下一張"},{"start":4004.318,"end":4013.474,"text":"這第一個問題那第二個問題 來你在當選你在上任的第二天第三天你有開一個記者會那記者會"},{"start":4016.923,"end":4043.108,"text":"很多人都很負面的因為你急著要去去WHA嘛所以呢你要問你的問題點子的問題癌症基金的問題缺藥砍人的社安安全網你的回答是空空泛泛問東答西把麥克風交給林靜儀次長那林靜儀次長剛剛我們陳昭芝非常的不爽齁"},{"start":4044.178,"end":4047.02,"text":"他當立法委員當區議員的時候他亂罵亂寫我可以接受因為他是選舉選出來的區議員所以他有選民的壓力他有階級層但是他回答的問題勇敢面對"},{"start":4063.394,"end":4077.873,"text":"所以部長 我覺得你還沒準備好 你的問題太多你都不了解所以你要加強 不能這樣空幻的這樣人家感覺很不好再來社會團體對你的評價也不高"},{"start":4081.42,"end":4098.328,"text":"所以你要當部長他們反對這個公開指出來所以我也替你捏冷汗所以我是覺得這一個都要好好的來補強啦我對你是這麼尊重啦所以謝謝指教再來就是你一天天就說任性任性"},{"start":4107.679,"end":4135.047,"text":"醫療要有韌性：護士都照料料：接著這次大隊人在丹北城頂我們病棟就這樣一間藥廠藥水出問題就整個崩盤食藥署你們就趕快幫他輔導給他改善用風他吃的量又多他的點滴就出問題然後讓池窮良在那邊插屁股插不完又緊急進口又等等"},{"start":4136.207,"end":4148.148,"text":"哪有什麼韌性啊?你要常常要有策略性的剩餘吧,不定?要有策略性的剩餘,那等一下有欠一鍋錢,讓我倒,讓我倒,讓我倒,讓我倒,讓我倒,有韌性啊?"},{"start":4150.956,"end":4150.976,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":4171.488,"end":4183.748,"text":"你是改審的...來,事由部長報告委員那永豐藥廠因為他的很多缺失都還沒有改善所以沒有辦法讓他復工那其他的"},{"start":4184.962,"end":4185.183,"text":"從日本進來?"},{"start":4206.2,"end":4229.607,"text":"從這邊,大總啊什麼的進來,這樣,好。 這個部長,千頭萬緒,我先保證,我部長真的很難幹,當然那個石安就搞得我們金頭鑽小,我說你還蠻運氣還蠻不錯的,薛睿遠給你做一個段落,他交給你,但是這個下個禮拜就要那個健保法,"},{"start":4230.458,"end":4246.742,"text":"就要協商,再沒有好好的配套,我們一定強行表決。我們一定強行表決。像昨天的原住民健康補償條例,表決六萬塊就表決過了。我們就課總召說違憲,為什麼憲啊?跟違憲說關係胡說八道,大家都聽不下去,所以我跟你說,"},{"start":4252.642,"end":4280.004,"text":"表決過你就要打下去啊所以要好好想配套還有下個禮拜就要13號嘛我記得是13號所以好好地想看看那這個不難吧講了好幾個比如說普通保衛拉高拉什麼的不要讓百姓的負擔增加這個林俊宇講的我跟他拍拍手我跟他按讚那其他的政府投資的要增加那就爆起來了沒人 我覺得沒人普通保衛市長市長"},{"start":4281.069,"end":4308.642,"text":"好 署長 有什麼報告我看你這樣錄了可以用千萬的錄喔沒有那麼多啦你的匯率提高要提高上面拉高一些然後從一千萬變成五千萬這個會增加從劫富濟貧這個是沒有人會講話啦那個應該可以拉高很多所以要用心把它解決不是擺爛"},{"start":4310.494,"end":4331.863,"text":"這是千頭萬緒喔,你自己要小心一點再來,我是認為你這8年來在當部份區立委還有也當前內會兩屆,我當一屆啦我看你跟基層的診所、基層的照顧非常好但是你跟醫院組的大中小型醫院沒什麼互動"},{"start":4333.018,"end":4356.974,"text":"跟弱勢團體也沒什麼互動所以我們臺灣的到處吹噓說多過勞多過勞都是建議在血汗、爆肝、過勞、霸凌所以這個是很嚴重的問題看要怎麼解決再來最後一個問題這次去WHA去日內瓦我跟你報告因為那時候我去你沒有去"},{"start":4358.072,"end":4365.447,"text":"我在第8屆立委的時候馬英九的時代我去了三次三次那個時候邦交國有22個"},{"start":4367.84,"end":4391.462,"text":"都進到萬國宮進去開會然後那個時候邦交國22現在剩下11那加上一個教廷教廷12但是教廷不管政治的事情所以這一次去這8年我們去那邊還去做國外外交跟現在差不多那這8年來我給大家詳細的review一下8年來都是去那邊"},{"start":4394.064,"end":4413.099,"text":"在飯店裏面我們還當時還跟22個邦交國的衛生部長演講還有那個臺聯的演講等等我覺得效果還不錯那我們當初進去的名字是用APEC的名稱還有奧林匹克的名稱叫做Chinese Taipei"},{"start":4414.552,"end":4436.499,"text":"回來就被罵,賣國、賣台、台尖,什麼都被罵了。邱恩達跟你一樣姓邱,邱恩達也被罵。葉金專也被罵。那現在你用同樣的名字也進不去。我會被你一起做什麼?做什麼?後面你會越來越賣賣。所以這是更現實的問題。你要怎麼調整?要怎麼拼?"},{"start":4440.194,"end":4458.699,"text":"是不是要轉個方向去做還是轉個方向去努力不然現在被硬碰我當時還跟邱文達部長寫拿一封抗議信去交給當時的陳馮富貞就是香港的衛生署長他當幹事長拿給他他連看都不看就丟了"},{"start":4460.615,"end":4484.384,"text":"有一次我在香港碰到陳鳳富珍我就問他你怎麼這樣幹為什麼連抗議信都不拿他說我聽北京的我聽北京的這是他給我的回答所以有時候要繞個方向阿不然我感覺這樣很辛苦這是我們要加強的地方大家要互相幫忙互相的努力"},{"start":4485.766,"end":4496.464,"text":"我第一感謝所有人對過去在國外的這些努力,非常的敬佩。我們一起會議這段努力,你應該很清楚。"},{"start":4497.472,"end":4522.081,"text":"我是前臺灣的醫師要找像我這樣跟社福團體這麼親近的醫師恐怕沒有幾個所以我的一個新聞不應該毀滅到我們醫療團體跟社福過去共同與病人為中心的一個整合性的照顧這是給首長報告其他就是說所有的一切"},{"start":4523.702,"end":4543.354,"text":"人民的醫療權利及國家的財務可以承擔．我們一定盡全力提出配套措施．讓我們的醫療院所可以來運作．首尾委員報告我們過去的全年福利組織的事．若我們稍後在基層開一個公司．也許基層就得到．"},{"start":4544.916,"end":4563.592,"text":"10億的好處醫院就得到可能60億的好處所以我們專聯會過所有的醫院跟醫師沒有放過任何一個全臺灣3萬5千個醫師的權益以及他工作的醫療院所5萬多個醫師我們醫師會有5萬多個5萬3千個"},{"start":4572.467,"end":4573.868,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":4602.22,"end":4602.445,"text":"本集完"},{"start":4611.721,"end":4633.223,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位官員、大家早安。我也想請邱部長。請邱部長。部長,很謝謝你跟我們一起去WHO一同為台灣發聲。不過WHO我們等一下再來問。今天還是要關心一個目前我接獲許許多多區域醫院、地區醫院護理師的陳情。"},{"start":4634.719,"end":4654.973,"text":"三種的院長啊他已經直接說他可以少一個醫生可是不能沒有護理師區醫院更嚴重他現在關病床然後呢他們從前啊一個晚上值班的醫師護理師可以開兩三台急診刀現在區醫院他們一個晚上只能開一台"},{"start":4655.393,"end":4655.813,"text":"您要先說 我要保證"},{"start":4681.499,"end":4710.159,"text":"那個跟委員報告目前我們對於護理能力的這個資訊的掌握有幾個管道那第一個就是說依照護理人法跟醫療機構醫療法的15條只要是護理人員職業他都要所謂的直登那這個病床也要有這個登記所以我們有一個醫師管理系統那這個系統裡面我們會很清楚的看到目前開放了床跟護理人員的直登狀況這是第一個那第二個就是說我們也有一個"},{"start":4711.42,"end":4713.301,"text":"我已經調出這個表我有一個深喉嚨等一下這張圖在我的手機裡面但是我已經把它整理起來了"},{"start":4729.805,"end":4752.194,"text":"這是醫學中心全國前22名醫學中心在兩年前是每天滿床到去年下半年開始關病床我們來看開放床跟申報床通常這22家醫學中心它一定是全部滿床它會申報這麼少就表示我們現在有七八成是空床了"},{"start":4752.534,"end":4782.534,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4783.454,"end":4785.695,"text":"來來我們看一下這個我們看一下這張圖這邊你告訴我說每年的護理人員是不斷的增加沒錯可是這個曲線是趨緩趨緩喔是"},{"start":4811.963,"end":4834.5,"text":"你這一年來只增加了2000位每年離職的是兩萬人喔增加2000位好右邊是你們衛福部自己做出來的表你說到這個2030年我們需要的護理總人數是24到26萬我們現在只有18萬好我幫你算一下你每年要增加的是多少至少一萬"},{"start":4835.36,"end":4854.504,"text":"但是你現在每年增加的是2000你覺得你有辦法趕上你自己2030年預估的供需嗎過去在疫情之前他每年竟增加大概5000左右5000那因為疫情之後確實在疫情之後剩下這個增加是2500到3500之間那所以呢現在我們針對於未來2030年的這個需求這是國際的趨勢就是說他們的算法是從2023去算"},{"start":4864.906,"end":4880.247,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4880.627,"end":4897.323,"text":"我幫你準備好這個表了因為上一個表呢你的衛福部的施政計畫就是投資護理人力培育投資護理人力留任這個都是你自己寫的那我們來看護理的離職率啊越來越高好"},{"start":4898.664,"end":4925.4,"text":"成長趨緩每年超過2萬人離開所以呢在護理師公會竟增加的職業會員數你看2022年竟增加2000人好護理科系招不滿你看註冊率從106年到111年111年這麼多人錄取了護理系只有八成的人想要去念所以你進來的人少離職的人高然後還留不住人你覺得你這樣要怎麼達到2030年你的24到26萬"},{"start":4928.101,"end":4955.825,"text":"對也確實在這個人力的留任有很多的這個挑戰所以我們在對於整個護理人力的這個盤錫裡面就是針對怎麼讓畢業生能夠真的畢業生進去的大概六成所以怎麼讓他更願意進去以及留任的能夠提升所以目前在我們行政院合併之後我們大概朝三個大方向來努力第一個方向就是人才的這個增加投資"},{"start":4956.804,"end":4978.629,"text":"這個人才的培育那第二個就職場改善第三個是心理改善這個等一下我們一起來分析這個表已經告訴你有一個死亡交叉了我們留在醫院的護理師你看66%掉到多少然後到診所呢大幅增加到長照的增加完全合理"},{"start":4980.209,"end":5002.167,"text":"這很簡單啊其實你只要去問你那麼多護理師的會員請問你們在診所跟你們在醫院的待遇差多少福利差多少你很快就可以得出結論啦這不是很好解決嗎下一張你剛講到的改善友善醫院職場營造嘛剛很好我們2月就開始質詢你的三班護病比的問題還有你的這個獎勵津貼小業大業等等的"},{"start":5005.109,"end":5029.701,"text":"你要把它拉平每一個醫院都要拉平那你們有勉強的把它湊成快要一樣高這也很好5月8號也發錢了也非常好但是你的這個改善方案裡面還寫到彈性設計班表還有老手牽新手的臨床制度也是你希望可以留任何新人力的改善方針請問這兩個你有做嗎因為我在網路上騙尋不著"},{"start":5031.142,"end":5046.275,"text":"因為這個這個有新手的這個計畫以及三班達標或是友善職場這個呢目前是要透過公預算來爭取那這個計畫我們在4月已經送到行政院目前國發會在審查如果預算到了我們就該執行"},{"start":5047.376,"end":5057.326,"text":"老手牽新手你覺得這個是有符合我們的科學嗎?這個目前在護理界還有醫院他們都覺得非常重要因為我們很多是靠新進人員進來那新進人員在這個第一年呢他也需要有這個所謂的 mentorship 就是"},{"start":5064.893,"end":5080.188,"text":"我這4年可能會一直再去追這樣子的數據因為太多人跟我反映了好我們來看這個互併筆呢當初很多人會覺得利益非常良善可是沒有配套會很難落實結果你看我們5月8號我們發了"},{"start":5083.13,"end":5099.072,"text":"小業、大業的獎金但是5月4號、5月10號護理的產業工會去做一個問卷調查他問了500多名護理師從82家醫院有9層的醫院他填寫問卷回來說他真的打不到這個護病比"},{"start":5099.753,"end":5113.569,"text":"然後呢醫學中心有超過3500的護理缺口區域也有3500的護理缺口你覺得要維持固定的護病比就要有一定的護理人數但現在根本不夠所以你未來"},{"start":5115.51,"end":5129.578,"text":"應該要怎麼做我可以先提供一個比較具體的方案啊二月的時候萬美林委員有質詢說小夜大夜的人非常辛苦沒錯可是白班的人也很操啊醫生一直來查房一直給order"},{"start":5129.978,"end":5149.743,"text":"他們要做的是更多白班也希望可以爭取津貼特殊單位也希望爭取津貼急診、加護病房等等當時區議院前部長已經承諾說這個預算撥下來了那我現在也代表所有的護理人員醫護人員來問說你們什麼時候才要落實具體的時程什麼時候會有白班津貼"},{"start":5152.076,"end":5175.632,"text":"我們努力爭取預算可是預算落下來我們就開始執行上次的會議記錄上次的會議記錄他說已經我們會努力幫你爭取好嗎預算只要到那針對於說百般繁重的這個定義其實我們都已經啟動了很多的討論了好謝謝謝謝市長那我們再請外交部"},{"start":5178.77,"end":5208.01,"text":"部長你也是第10屆的立法委員所以其實當時在第10屆立法委員他們在檢討WHA的預算的時候不分藍綠他們當時所做出審預算的決議叫做歷年來僅透過社群臉書YT發稿專文投書宣傳一成不變這是當時的會議記錄可是今天我們看到的檢討報告還是一樣社群臉書YT發稿專文投書宣傳一成不變那我記得"},{"start":5208.49,"end":5233.046,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5235.211,"end":5250.476,"text":"謝謝陳委員的質詢我想我們國人大家都很認真在做一件事情如果成績只有達到80分我們就一定要用創意才能90分才能考到100分就好像陳委員您是一個優秀的"},{"start":5250.896,"end":5268.251,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5268.371,"end":5290.958,"text":"你會往AI的這個方向想?Action Innovation不是說用AI啦我是用那個我是要Action跟Innovation創新這個團隊我相信我從即日起就會要求我們所有的相關的團隊對於WHA這件事情"},{"start":5291.978,"end":5317.959,"text":"要有更創新的方法當然這個也很需要過去很多很多過去指導的立委像剛剛蘇立委說他去過三次那其實都是寶貴的經驗我們去年衛環有一個前立委的立法院以來的創級就是我們為衛環委員會到日內瓦去考察"},{"start":5318.9,"end":5339.325,"text":"所以我們的委員很多人到那邊考察同時把那邊的狀況還有相關的議題同時同步在這邊801開會然後把所有相關要檢討的事情都列入所有相關部門要從那天就要開始去在政策上改進在策略上要求算"},{"start":5340.886,"end":5359.948,"text":"因為我跟王振旭委員有去參觀議會也有去參觀當地的醫院結果當地的醫院很多醫生告訴我們說你認不認識比如說陳世安認不認識某某某這些都是全球在某一個醫療技術上做到尖峰會列進國際教科書的人"},{"start":5360.529,"end":5375.856,"text":"他們說假使這些臺灣之光啦都可以跟著一起來的話所有在場的醫生都很願意去聽他們演講跟學習這個也是你可以善用的資源之一因為我看我們就遊行嘛"},{"start":5376.476,"end":5396.476,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5397.016,"end":5416.528,"text":"對,所以之前的委員就已經有提出這樣子的想法了王振旭有人去考察當地的醫院的時候他也說其實他也覺得這個癌症治療好像台灣還更厲害一點點所以其實我們有很多東西可以跟國外分享的最後呢我也希望說未來外交部衛福部我們這個遊行非常好"},{"start":5416.988,"end":5419.149,"text":"但是既然大家都到國外就應該要團結一致最後還有一個想法"},{"start":5443.9,"end":5471.655,"text":"因為去年薛前部長到WHO的時候他利用這個臺美日澳的平臺這個平臺其實非常好他串辦了9年他每一年至少辦6個活動129個國家8000多個國際的衛生官員跟專家他去年就利用這個平臺集結了非常多而且他說他會繼續的深化去年他辦了一個後疫情時代結果我們去查"},{"start":5472.835,"end":5494.569,"text":"從去年5月到今年再也沒有任何醫療公衛相關的議題了裡面只有認知作戰、假訊息、綠能所以部長你是不是應該要積極爭取假使我們的醫衛醫療這麼厲害的話我們為什麼不好好的善用這樣子我們名字就再由裡面的跨國平台去做呢"},{"start":5495.882,"end":5496.022,"text":"謝謝陳慶輝委員發言"},{"start":5524.719,"end":5542.93,"text":"接下來請邱政軍委員發言。好,我們主席好。我們請邱部長。請邱部長。"},{"start":5548.106,"end":5570.576,"text":"部長您好這次您親自帶領WHA的行動小組是前往日內瓦那進行了43場的雙邊會議和推廣的活動那麼當然像與會者展示了我們臺灣的醫療實力那麼我想請問一下部長您認為我們這一行這一趟巨大的收穫是什麼"},{"start":5571.923,"end":5585.264,"text":"第一個收購就是我們再度集結我們所有的政府的力量跟民團、僑團的力量共同剛剛其實陳委員有提到我們在"},{"start":5586.499,"end":5589.56,"text":"我們有沒有機會重新以觀察員身份進入WHA）"},{"start":5610.226,"end":5635.7,"text":"這永遠是我們一直要努力的目標但是因為中國的壓力其實是很大我現在要講的就是說事實上我們問AI都知道我們台灣無法參加WHA的原因有三個那第一個當然是中國大陸的政治封鎖那第二個是國際的支持度不足"},{"start":5636.662,"end":5661.6,"text":"第三個是國際法和規則的限制要成為WHO與WHA的代表先決條件必須是聯合國的會員對吧我們請外交部陳次長來一下可能次長也可以從外交的立場來看委員你好"},{"start":5662.879,"end":5688.649,"text":"剛剛我講這個問題我想這個次長您對於我們現在面臨的問題您的看法怎麼樣不過因為我們目前政治的目標希望用專業務實有貢獻的方法那我們當然入會要以完全會員身份加入當然是有困難最當然我們現在的訴求是要能夠以觀察員身份來加入對那這那你認為現在我們要怎麼樣來突破這個問題困境"},{"start":5691.422,"end":5705.347,"text":"您具所有能夠支持跟協助的力量我們本身自己也要持續地提升因為已經做了很多年了已經做了很多年這個我認為都是喊口號啦那我這樣建議啦因為時間也不是很多"},{"start":5706.287,"end":5728.283,"text":"我想我們應該積極爭取美日及歐盟的權力相挺這是我們一直努力的部分但是我也希望在國際要謀求國際空間的同時也應該思考過去我們馬政府透過中華民國憲法以及兩岸人文關係條例所建構的兩岸和平與合作的架構的必要性"},{"start":5729.384,"end":5752.544,"text":"畢竟維持我們台海的穩定才能保障我們台灣的一個安全那我也想說這個部分當然是比較敏感你們可能也沒有辦法去做決定但是我們是希望台灣好希望說大家一起來努力好不好好那我們請部長回座市長市長回座那我們衛福部"},{"start":5755.622,"end":5775.743,"text":"臺灣對於世界公共衛生的領域貢獻和潛力都不容忽視這是無庸置疑的但在你率團到日內瓦交流的這段期間臺灣的醫療好像也出了點狀況您的次長林靜儀他在臉書發布生理實驗水的點滴要用專案進口的事情這個事前您知道嗎"},{"start":5778.325,"end":5781.967,"text":"你知道嗎?我先問你,你知道這件事情嗎?我知道要專案進口"},{"start":5799.262,"end":5808.633,"text":"對,那我想再問一個一件事情為什麼要在我們次長的臉書看才知道為什麼不是在衛福部網站來公布呢"},{"start":5813.936,"end":5836.01,"text":"當時其實是有狀況的就是說不是我認為是這樣你次長的臉書是另外一個層面但是衛福部的網站才是為主吧對不對既然你們已經決定要從不管怎麼樣就是生理實驗水不足的問題那你已經知道了嘛怎麼會在臉書來反映這種事情沒關係請吳市長你回答一下是"},{"start":5839.152,"end":5864.012,"text":"報告委員,像我們如果知道說像我們這一次評估之後是需要有專案輸入的所以在食藥署這邊就公開的徵求專案輸入不對,我現在問的問題跟跟您講的這個沒有沒有關係啊為什麼會是在臉書先公佈而不是在你們外部的網站在我們自己的我們食藥署缺藥的就是一個那個藥品供應平臺上面"},{"start":5864.913,"end":5876.817,"text":"其實都有這方面的資訊我知道生理實驗水現在缺少是非常嚴重的一件事情那麼永豐在5月10日熱定停業你們什麼時候發現點滴可能會不夠"},{"start":5880.273,"end":5900.188,"text":"我們那個時候就開始做盤點對,因為永豐他本身的品質是不夠的改善也沒有到位可是一開始你們面對一切的質疑的時候你們都說沒缺啊供應充足啊我們是一定是要做適當的分配因為每一家醫院醫療院所他們所自己所進貨的這些"},{"start":5901.969,"end":5909.173,"text":"身體實驗水可能量度不同所以我們就要適當的去調配讓大家都有身體實驗水進口的專案裡面有4家廠商嘛是那麼你們對進口商的審查標準是什麼"},{"start":5916.321,"end":5944,"text":"進口商的標準當然他本身要具備藥商的資格然後他要能夠拿到就是對方他是什麼樣的藥廠要出貨所以他是不是屬於我們PSGMP的藥廠你們的專的合約是直接把數量簽死還是說按照需求再進口我們還是會有給他量還是會有給他量先把量一定的固定的量那廠商的報價單裡面合約裡面的點滴是多少錢運費是多少"},{"start":5945.011,"end":5974.711,"text":"他們來跟我們申請對他們來跟我們申請最主要是數量還有是來自於哪一家藥廠然後有關價錢的部分要跟健保署這邊談是你們是用健保價還是用專案價以這一次因為整個的成本都不同了所以不是用健保價所以都是用專案價那我再請問一下我們國內也有配合生產嘛對不對有也有幾家在生產是那我們在國內的時候這些生產配合的廠商我們是用健保價還是用專案價現在也是專案價"},{"start":5975.652,"end":5997.349,"text":"各位委員報告也是另外在這一段期間不足的時候有專案假那多久?這個期間是多久?目前是暫估到10月從6月開始那我們以臺灣我們這樣子用專案一直下來也不是辦法也不是辦法那我們臺灣有什麼我們現在這邊有什麼我們另一方面也會重新的盤這個基本用藥的藥價那預計的話會新的藥價會在10月以後銜接"},{"start":6004.555,"end":6025.166,"text":"閒接這個專案到期那臺灣本身的我們沒有鼓勵來做這件事情嗎有因為這個我們昨天已經跟國內的5家有生產這個點滴的藥廠有重新溢價然後也請他們提出新的成本所以你的合約相應專案的話剛剛我講那個問題你還沒回答嗎就斷了"},{"start":6028.269,"end":6053.044,"text":"專案的話是從6月到10月這一個期間是專案是多少錢?我說是多少錢?一瓶多少?我們本來的健保核價是25那提高到因為各家是不一樣這有些商業秘密什麼商業秘密啊?每一家不一樣每一家不一樣我們可以私下提供給我希望是這樣子就是說"},{"start":6054.045,"end":6078.503,"text":"我不反對你們去外面採購因為現在不足本來就要補但是我希望你們把這些事情公開透明好不好一瓶多少錢你進口過進口的運費多少錢把它列出來嘛你可以公佈嗎跟委員報告那個進口的部分我們已經在6月1號已經公佈了多少錢各家是不一樣大概從60幾都有所以將近三倍啦"},{"start":6079.884,"end":6106.53,"text":"差不多所以將近三倍對那其他人如果還要做這個進口只要條件符合都可以嗎因為我們目前徵求這些專案進口的藥商以現在他們所提供的數量是夠的所以如果我們還需要的時候我們就會再公開徵求好這樣子啦我不要講得太那個但是我還是希望你們把這所有的事情公開透明好不好"},{"start":6107.97,"end":6126.138,"text":"另外一個本席很重視的一個問題就是上司電子菸的問題昨天接到食藥署回電5月9日管制藥委員會已經做成決議把依託米子列為市級管制藥品當然謝謝我們之前衛福部的同仁"},{"start":6126.918,"end":6142.794,"text":"接下來在6月13號法務部的毒品審查審議委員會裡面我也希望部長也要求法務部以你們的專業的角度去跟他們建議我認為一堆名詞應該至少列到三級以上好不好這個你們可以做到嗎?"},{"start":6146.197,"end":6165.71,"text":"6月13會開會國務部預計6月13會開獨品審議會對我是說你們用專業的角度建議好不好因為這個部分說真的啦這個都是影響我們青少年比較多這也是我們非常重視的另外還有一個問題就是說我們近5年的大麻茶貨數量從108年的202公斤增加到110年的1560公斤"},{"start":6172.114,"end":6199.26,"text":"一百一十二年的一千一百六十九公斤這個極速成長了五倍那根據聯合報的報導統計十年成長十八倍但是查獲的人數卻沒有明顯的變化那部長認為我想請教部長您這個是不是代表我們存在黑數就是沒有查獲有非常大的落差嗯"},{"start":6201.132,"end":6202.053,"text":"按照教育部統計的"},{"start":6217.667,"end":6240.677,"text":"大麻已成為大專院校學生吸食毒品的第二名僅次於K他名而學校往往不在檢警主動偵查的範圍因為學校自己要主動通報他自己有本身非常多的考量所以我希望衛福部應該主動協調教育部警政署以及法務部加強村徽專案的校園通報義務與課則"},{"start":6242.558,"end":6245.599,"text":"少當校園藥物濫用及稀釋毒品的黑數"},{"start":6274.537,"end":6300.398,"text":"部長好部長在5月的時候你也率團去參加這個世界衛生大會那很可惜臺灣已經第8次被拒於門外那我想這次也很多民間團體也一起參與嘛那立法院這邊也有副院長帶領委員一起參與那我想請教就是說部長你從原本的這個一屆"},{"start":6301.779,"end":6316.2,"text":"一屆然後進到立法院當委員然後現在是衛福部的部長那在這幾次應該你都有這個不同的身份來參與那你覺得說對於我們一直被這個WHA聚於門外"},{"start":6317.982,"end":6334.908,"text":"那你有什麼樣的話想要說．或者是說你這一次5月底的參與這個WHA可能就是周邊的一些會議那你有說可能有一些小成功那未來集結起來就是一個大成功那我是不是可以讓你幾分鐘的時間來講就是說你覺得這一次"},{"start":6339.33,"end":6347.082,"text":"你們參與的這個會議跟以往有什麼不一樣﹖或者是有所突破﹖或者是跟以前都是一樣沒有什麼進展﹖"},{"start":6349.9,"end":6372.835,"text":"好謝謝黃昭偉給我這個時間第一個我以衛福部部長的身份是位行動團的團長過去我的感受比跟立委跟以前當議事公會理事長我也去過好幾次的感受的第一個不一樣就是我發現我們的外交部或是衛福部僑委會"},{"start":6374.675,"end":6402.968,"text":"這個國安會真的是在這件事情非常的用心非常的努力也爭取到一分一好的外交的空間所以在世界的各國都想像不到的國家幾乎我們的外交部都有去遊說都有去下了很多的功夫那我們到那個當地也會看到當地的駐外人員跟當地的重要的人物其實關係感情上私交都很好"},{"start":6404.228,"end":6419.243,"text":"那我們的依偎團體其實還有另外一個特色就是我們臺灣至少有100個以上的依偎團體其實這些依偎團體都有國際的組織他們都有非常好的關係就像我也當過"},{"start":6421.205,"end":6449.253,"text":"亞大世界醫師會的會長那我也是世界醫師會的理事我也當過家庭醫學會的在世界上各方面的一個我是幾個像這樣的多的是這一次我們我覺得這個未來是一個創新要去做的事情那至於這一次的收穫就還是一直累積因為因為我們不能因為我們拿不到Observer我們就"},{"start":6450.453,"end":6452.354,"text":"臺北市立聯合醫院臺北市立聯合醫院臺北市立聯合醫院"},{"start":6478.65,"end":6506.027,"text":"江冠宇醫師原本他也是可以參與的那到最後好像就是也沒有加入那是什麼樣的原因我們大約也知道說是因為中國的這個阻擾力道加大那原本這個江醫師他原本是世界醫師會的籌備委員那理當應該他會有這個保證席或者是優先權那到最後好像也沒有"},{"start":6507.508,"end":6526.594,"text":"我想請教就是說今年可能會有這樣的狀況可能中國干擾台灣要加入WHA的這個力道加大甚至加入這個世界醫師會的這個會議的這個力道也加大那未來我們要怎麼去突破是我很敬佩"},{"start":6528.041,"end":6551.575,"text":"江委員是我學生他用青年團的角度從WMA就是世界醫師會的角度去切入也曾經到經歷過相關的執委會去做主題的報告在今年的可能二月還是幾月但是如果在這種正式場合跟委員報告我已經進去萬國宮好幾次"},{"start":6554.781,"end":6565.855,"text":"關聯是不能進去的可是我為什麼能夠進去因為我是用世界議事會給我的入場像這次我們的委員就進不了可是這兩年"},{"start":6567.162,"end":6583.25,"text":"WHA就不發給我們世界醫師會所以我這兩年也沒辦法進去所以未來要怎麼去突破所以如果以江醫師他只是一個他如果要代表WMA我看是進不了是進不了"},{"start":6586.321,"end":6608.362,"text":"所以我們是希望就是說當然這個中國的阻擾的這個力道應該是每一年都會再加大所以我們希望就是說是不是有什麼樣的要有什麼樣的突破那剛剛陳委員陳金輝委員也有特別提到也許有其他的醫師可能在某一個"},{"start":6609.182,"end":6610.163,"text":"外交部的次長陳次長"},{"start":6640.851,"end":6641.351,"text":"市長我想請教"},{"start":6664.69,"end":6674.205,"text":"你們這一次有一個國際醫療文宣短片就是《My Second Home》我看了你們全球的總觀看"},{"start":6677.012,"end":6703.842,"text":"的數目有2696萬人次當然就是說如果以全球的人口的話這樣算是多嗎在外交部的官網你們的YT的頻道也有這樣的一個影片觀看的人數就只有幾百人就只有幾百人四五百人這樣子所以我在想就是說如果外交部的"},{"start":6705.203,"end":6725.422,"text":"這個一些宣傳短片或者是官網這個整個流量就是只有這樣子而已那我是希望就是說未來你們要怎麼去突破或者是有什麼更創新的方式或者是因為往年都是只有這樣子嘛那未來你們要怎麼做是不是有更創新的方式"},{"start":6726.991,"end":6748.797,"text":"謝謝蔡委員您剛剛的這個指教的確在21世紀這種傳播還有社群媒體非常快速的時代那過去傳統方法當然有可能他會達到他的這種傳播的極限所以的確就像剛剛很多委員都有指教我們在很多已經做的工作怎麼讓他能夠有效的傳達到"},{"start":6749.497,"end":6776.101,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6776.221,"end":6803.592,"text":"所以我們是希望就是說未來真的因為這個好像是每年例行的一個行程雖然我們已經連8年沒辦法進到這個WHA那是不是也要有一些創新的方式就是可能我們的部長帶這個相關的這個官員一起去那立法院這邊也副院長也有帶團去了那所有的一屆民間團體大家都一起來參與其實"},{"start":6806.234,"end":6821.923,"text":"這個WHA在開會的時候其實那個時間點應該有很多台灣人是到那邊替台灣要爭取要進到這個WHA的這個門票嘛那我們是不是也可以集合這樣的一個力量好讓大家一起"},{"start":6822.603,"end":6848.683,"text":"一起來為台灣來做一些事那當然就是說每一年如果是只有這樣子的話也許我覺得還不夠那是不是還有更好更創新的方式那剛剛也有幾位委員講那我們的這個攤位在那邊那是不是也有可以有一些更好的方法那如果今年這個方法不是那麼好那未來明年是不是有更具創意的方式讓"},{"start":6849.904,"end":6875.489,"text":"其他國家知道說台灣的醫療是做得不錯的我覺得這個是我們的政府單位應該要去努力的當然如果今天是要矮化國葛的話我相信台灣所有的國人應該沒辦法去接受矮化國葛進到WHO或者是參加WHA世界衛生大會當然也有很多的方式如果今天大家認同台灣的醫療"},{"start":6877.009,"end":6899.505,"text":"是在全世界當中是做得不錯的而且是在前面在前幾名的我相信透過民間的力量一起努力我覺得應該是大有可為那當然就是還有一些要精進的地方然後我希望說透過今天的這個專案報告那我們也希望未來在明年的時候能夠有所突破好不好我們繼續努力好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6905.518,"end":6921.836,"text":"接下來請圖宣吉委員來做審討好,謝謝主席那請我們邱部長就像部長這樣"},{"start":6928.623,"end":6951.649,"text":"謝謝邱部長也感謝邱部長也代表我們台灣2350萬人到瑞士日內瓦參加WHA到世衛為我們台灣來發聲那我想請問一下邱部長那你針對這一次到瑞士日內瓦所參與這個世界衛生大會你覺得這一次的成果怎麼樣"},{"start":6954.849,"end":6969.037,"text":"謝謝突然的指教第一個具體成果應該是友邦我們本來友邦就堅定支持所以所有的跟友邦都有簽署提案讓我們加入觀察員然後在"},{"start":6970.726,"end":6983.398,"text":"發言當中不管直接或間接來支持我們的也達到26個加一個歐盟那這個也是以前最多的然後我們很重要的一個雙邊的會議雙邊的會議就是國與國籍的一個"},{"start":6988.458,"end":7017.151,"text":"應該是衛生最高層級的一個互動有沒有辦了大概43場這43場裡面當然有很多我們過去有跟他簽備忘錄的那備忘錄的內容我們一個一個來檢討怎麼樣來落實那如果還沒有簽的我們當然希望做更緊密的一個活動緊密那所談的合作都是因為這個國家所需要以及我們可以強項我們也可以幫忙來互動的所以這個部分他的場次"},{"start":7019.011,"end":7042.757,"text":"也算是比以前都比較多所以其實重點這次比較可惜就是其實我們實質還是沒有進入會場所以當然也沒有到大會去發言那就比較可惜像我們一些技術性議題技術性的會議也都沒有參與那據我們了解其實從2014年我們那時候馬政府的時候開始參加我們WHA其實剛剛部長也有講雙邊會談的次數"},{"start":7047.058,"end":7064.539,"text":"這次是43次其實從我們以前來看那以前我們從2014開始參與的時候我們雙邊會談只有58次那層級的部分當然也都是有到有跟美國衛生部長來會談我們這次也有跟那個貝塞拉會談嗎"},{"start":7068.693,"end":7085.918,"text":"這次有沒有跟美國部長、美國衛生部長配餐?不但有互談得很深入,然後他這次也有公告,正式公告臨時出來所以這次部分看起來,層級的部分是有到衛生部長"},{"start":7086.638,"end":7103.819,"text":"就是還是很可惜就是整體上就是沒有機會到大會去發言那當然一些小組會一些技術性的議題我們也沒有機會去發表參與那雙邊會談次數其實整體看起來並沒有比以往的這麼多那在這邊也請問一下"},{"start":7104.58,"end":7129.779,"text":"因為部長我請問一下那時候我們在5月27號的時候部長有受訪就是說有談到說如果以中華台北參加WHA你說認為會牽涉到主權的問題然後說臺灣還是臺灣臺灣的國民就是中華民國這個主權不容打折那我請問一下所以部長你認為如果用中華台北"},{"start":7130.96,"end":7141.431,"text":"來參加WHA這個組織參加WHA這個會議你覺得有矮化主權之嫌還是覺得對我們國家的主權有打折的問題嗎?"},{"start":7144.508,"end":7171.216,"text":"我們有各種團體其實的確曾經都是用強力是台北在參加不過這已經牽涉到國家這個WHA我們認為牽涉到國家的層面那真的就是有主權要考量的問題所以這個要全國大家一起討論那我們如果今天他們以中華台北名義來邀請我們參加那我們會去參加嗎?"},{"start":7174.185,"end":7197.838,"text":"這可能要請教外交部我都回答因為我們一直以來之前都是用中華台北嘛那如果說因為我們這次好像也是用中華台北並沒有說要來參加可是部長說這個以中華台北好像有主權打折的問題那如果那是不是變成如果用中華台北可能以部長的看法可能就是"},{"start":7199.062,"end":7220.748,"text":"不見得會參加的意思其實我有時候我的翻譯英文不一定翻譯因為在英翻中在國際記者會其實我們直接問到這個問題我們就很直接就台灣就是台灣所以其實如果用中華台北的話我們應該以部長來講如果以中華台北我們應該還是會參加吧"},{"start":7224.659,"end":7252.506,"text":"我如果個人的話我是覺得就像我們醫療團體我們過去用Chinese Taipei現在已經全部都改成幾乎改成台灣不是因為我覺得我們這還是要務實啦那因為一直以來我們都是用中華台北參加那因為我是看到那個我們部長針對這個記者的說法那我們想說如果用中華台北的話以我們衛福部的立場會參加嗎?"},{"start":7260.599,"end":7261.221,"text":"外交部有沒有問題?"},{"start":7265.206,"end":7279.98,"text":"我從我個人的立場上以及我其實我在國際我代表醫療至少自己國際奮鬥30年啦從學會啊什麼什麼我們努力的就是用台灣在代表台灣這是很務實的問題因為我們一直都用中華台北參加"},{"start":7286.938,"end":7311.765,"text":"國家是大家的如果能用中華民國當然我們也樂觀其成但是我的意思是說這是務實嘛因為現在我們連用中華台北連用觀察員的身份都沒有參加那我們也是要預設那我們今天如果有機會去參加他用中華台北來邀請我們以觀察員的身份那我們會不會參加要不要參加"},{"start":7314.929,"end":7330.18,"text":"沒關係能回答多少就回答多少謝謝圖委員您的指教其實應該是說從政府的政策立場來講能夠用到我們的正式國民能夠用到我們全民凝聚共識最高的"},{"start":7330.62,"end":7348.139,"text":"那當然我們是用這個取法護上嘛我們希望能夠有那樣的目標可以去奮鬥那過去委員你所提的實際發生的也的確有這個中華台北的名義我們以觀察員身分受邀去參加所以現在問題主要就是來自於說如果我們今天能夠讓"},{"start":7348.78,"end":7349.12,"text":"其實部長你們也不用那個"},{"start":7365.814,"end":7389.213,"text":"我們也沒有那麼政治化啦我只是說因為我是希望我們還是要以務實來面對這個問題那目前我們的外交處境不管我們參加多少很多體育賽事很多的國際組織我們都是用中華台北來參加那今天我們為了我們台灣2350萬人民我們有很多公共醫療衛生的問題"},{"start":7391.235,"end":7402.97,"text":"需要去參與所以我的建議是說我們還是以務實外交為主那當然現在如果有機會用中華台北我們中華台北來參加如果能用中華民國來參加中華民國台灣來參加我們也是樂觀其成"},{"start":7407.495,"end":7429.868,"text":"所以我這邊是建議我們先應該還是要以務實外交來面對這個問題然後這個我們務實外交我們今天有機會參與之後當然我們也希望能夠突破我們的外交處境當然如果能用中華民國臺灣我們也是樂觀其成所以這邊我們是建議如果有機會能夠用中華臺北來參加我們還是以"},{"start":7432.389,"end":7437.756,"text":"台灣2350萬人民的福祉為前提還是要先務實地面對來參加"},{"start":7440.953,"end":7468.64,"text":"謝謝那這部分我希望因為今天也是想說瞭解我們因為我聽到部長對記者回答這個問題我們是有點擔心你現在以中華台北觀察員的身份都進不去你還要以中華民國以臺灣來這個前提國家這個主權不容打折當然我們也不容打折那我要這邊跟部長報告其實在2016年的時候我們蔡英文總統"},{"start":7469.58,"end":7490.352,"text":"就有派衛福部長去參加．而且當時也是以中華台北的名義參加．那時候的衛福部部長是林廷宙．而且也針對這個問題也特別問過蔡總統．蔡總統也說這個沒有矮化主權．喪失國格的問題．所以我覺得還是一樣希望還是以務實來面對好"},{"start":7492.193,"end":7496.135,"text":"謝謝圖全集委員發言在這邊做一個宣告等一下在王建旭委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請王育民委員發言"},{"start":7521.123,"end":7523.904,"text":"謝謝主席。我們有請邱部長。請邱部長。委員好。部長好。部長辛苦了參加這個WHA,雖然沒有進到這個大會裡面,但是周邊的一些相關會議,我相信這樣的一個行程還是非常的繁忙。"},{"start":7542.335,"end":7560.394,"text":"那我看到你的報告裡面提到說這次的成果在疫後是最佳了你指的是疫後最佳但是本期還是要提供一個數據給你看剛剛圖圈級委員比較的是馬政府時期那我這邊比較的同樣是過去蔡政府時期在2019年的時候雙邊會談"},{"start":7563.683,"end":7587.627,"text":"那一年應該是高峰有高達71場當時的友邦是16個友邦支持我們但是到了2024年今年你帶隊出去之後雙邊會會談剩下43場然後國際支持是11個友邦那這個具體的數據其實呈現的都是一個下降的情況那這個部長你自己有掌握到這樣的一個訊息嗎"},{"start":7588.73,"end":7593.236,"text":"跟委員報告齁,我們這43場都是有坐下來,針對主要的議題來討論,而且都有正式的記錄那2019是關水?"},{"start":7605.953,"end":7631.759,"text":"也不是灌水 多算了 我們很落實在每一場43場 那以前的算法我是不太清楚 你不太清楚 但是這43場絕對都是貨真 真的就是做下來 這次 真的有談有會議記錄的 有會議記錄 那我請那個 你再回去交代同仁 過去那71場是不是也可以告訴本委員會 有沒有會議記錄"},{"start":7633.348,"end":7650.308,"text":"還是這一些其實是宣稱的不過這個會議記錄是有沒有是可以來講但是有些都是外交的那個機密雙邊會談就是說裡面的內容要做什麼有嗎那個外交部今天是"},{"start":7653.129,"end":7674.622,"text":"因為有很多的國家連照相都不跟我們照相。那所以是私下會談?沒有,但是也是正式會談,但是不照相、不公開的。就是說在你們外交部的記錄裡面,這一些的雙面會談的記錄可不可以對外公開?有沒有留下記錄?可不可以提供給委員?"},{"start":7676.652,"end":7702.468,"text":"這一點謝謝委員剛剛提出的這個疑問那有關於我們過去有這麼多場跟人家的互動那麼是不是有涉及外交上的考量我們當然第一個要先瞭解說對方是不是同意公布因為這個有這個對方的要求的問題那如果說是可以公布的然後內容不涉及機敏的我們回去調查一下然後再給委員一個答覆好提供給委員參考不是對新聞媒體是給委員參考好不好"},{"start":7703.108,"end":7726.637,"text":"我也希望了解情況那另外一個呢我想要問的就是之前這個薛部長在的時候他一直提到說今年的WHA大會很重要是一個有關於大流行公約的一個相關的討論跟簽署但是在今天的報告裡面這個邱部長只字未提有關於大流行公約那這個部分到底我們在這一次裡面"},{"start":7728.218,"end":7751.398,"text":"實際到了日內瓦我們接觸到多少訊息那這個大流行公約我們有沒有可能以觀察員的身份就是一起共同來加入因為最近這一些疾病的問題新冠之後大家對這個部分大家如何去分享知識這個其實是很重要的機制那這個部分因為今天報告裡面完全沒有提到"},{"start":7752.018,"end":7778.358,"text":"這個部長是不是可以補充跟大家報告一下?有沒有什麼成果?我先報告一下就是大流行公約是針對尤其是COVID以後大家覺得說要怎麼樣來合作其實不只WHO啦其實像在亞洲、歐洲、亞太地區都是有這樣的一個公約在存在因為區域的聯防也是非常的重要那當然WHO提這個我們臺灣絕對不能"},{"start":7782.721,"end":7810.528,"text":"所以從一開始我們就用盡各種辦法來爭取不管是用觀察員的角度或者用學術甚至用教育用各種角度一直在努力但是就是因為他的議題太多太爭議所以他今年是沒有通過還要在這一點當中會再討論我們會在這一點當中用盡各種辦法來參與那我想一經那個副市長要不要做補充"},{"start":7810.748,"end":7811.474,"text":"好來副署長補充"},{"start":7812.994,"end":7841.669,"text":"簡單跟委員補充就是這次我們有辦一個論壇所以有請到對這個中越非常有專精的美國學者以及國內的專家來一起討論那他確實是因為目前在這個資源分享還有那個一些技術面的問題沒有辦法達成共識所以已經宣布延長一年的談判時間那我們會在這一年當中透過多元的管道來就是針對身份加入的部分還有一些實質參與還有提供建議的部分來努力謝謝"},{"start":7842.589,"end":7849.893,"text":"有沒有把握我們可以用觀察員的身份來加入?到目前為止你們的評估是困難重重還是有機會?"},{"start":7851.343,"end":7872.223,"text":"以他目前現有的文字的話要參與是非常困難的因為他他裡頭是用這個也是用會員國這樣的一個名稱他不是有經濟體嗎沒有沒有他他目前就是那個文字部分當然在未來一年當中是還有可能再去做一些調整但是目前來講就是用這個身份參與的話應該是相當的困難他都是採會員國就是是是"},{"start":7874.065,"end":7897.788,"text":"好,那這個部分我們當然希望站在防疫的角度我們積極去爭取希望我們可以跟全球同步可以來交流這樣的一個跟疾病防治有關的相關的資訊這個部長在帶領相關討論繼續努力那接下來我要問一個現在大家很關注的上午其實也有委員已經問到就是關床的一個問題那這個部分本席發現說"},{"start":7899.269,"end":7923.681,"text":"好像從衛福部的角度你們看都沒有問題護理人員也在增加都沒有問題但是從實務上面現在爆發出來的如果一個區域醫院他關閉三層的病床這個其實是非常嚴重的問題因為背後代表有很多的病人他沒有辦法及時的得到病床那甚至現在如果有一些醫院開刀午後不開刀"},{"start":7926.222,"end":7951.05,"text":"這個影響的其實都是病人的權益但是從衛福部的報告裡面跟回應好像覺得問題不大部長你認為這個問題大還是不大我認為只要有任何一個病人他的健康需要照顧我們沒有及時跟他照顧都是大問題所以當然只要有"},{"start":7952.719,"end":7957.245,"text":"因為可以加強我沒有去加強的我們都一定要馬上來改善"},{"start":7958.299,"end":7982.75,"text":"那這當中其實最嚴重的當然就是護理人員不足啊他的這個離職率跟空缺率這兩個其實都是近5年的新高你可以看到這樣的一個數據所以沒有護理人員他就被迫必須要關床那這個問題這個部長你上任我相信你還沒上任之前就知道這個問題你有什麼具體的解方你要怎麼樣來處理這樣的一個問題"},{"start":7988.3,"end":7999.369,"text":"這陣子來政府大概有提出了三個方向剛剛有報告過人才培育、職場的改善還有薪資的一個改善薪資的改善部分你做得到嗎?"},{"start":8001.465,"end":8023.199,"text":"已經有一直在提撥可能還不至於到我們護理界所期待因為我當還沒當部長之前我也都是跟他們大家一起在工作我也很期待更高但是政府當然一步一步"},{"start":8024.943,"end":8032.084,"text":"好那部長我提醒你就是現在衛福委員會在討論的就是健保點子就是1.1元的這個部分醫界也講將來調高的這個部分他們願意回饋給醫護人員首先會去調薪所以事實上這個如果你可以給醫院足夠的資源的話讓他再回饋回去給這一些必要的護理人員我覺得這個才是一個正向的循環"},{"start":8052.308,"end":8062.269,"text":"因為之前你到WHA都沒有正式回答這個問題我就正式問你關於健保點值1.1元這個政策你贊成還是反對?"},{"start":8063.482,"end":8088.468,"text":"朝向1.1元的努力我當然是贊成好那我們就加速加速好不好就是朝向1.1元你贊成那我們委員會就加速這樣的一個進程我們會開快車當然要考慮到有沒有辦法來負擔有啦一定有辦法這個我想這個政府的財政我們稅有超徵是兩三千億那錢我覺得都沒有花在刀口上"},{"start":8088.928,"end":8105.776,"text":"去補貼台建的虧損那這個勞保的改革明明是應要走改革路線結果他就撥補就是用一千多億這樣來撥補那真的全民健保這邊要照顧的部分他就說沒有錢沒有錢所以我覺得這個是政府資源分配要分配在哪裡的問題"},{"start":8107.736,"end":8120.982,"text":"的問題那站在未還委員會委員的立場我覺得去讓我們的醫界真的可以有韌性可以健康的永續這個才是全民健保之福如果醫療界垮了"},{"start":8122.102,"end":8147.887,"text":"我們的全民健保也不會存在這個我們一定要有這樣的共識所以未來這一個修法我希望這個部長提早做好準備這個是一屆因應其判你過去擔任醫師公會你應該很瞭解大家的想法那這個部分我們會全力往這部分來邁進那希望你做好準備我們已經桌前的來思考配套措施來完成這樣的一個我們近期就會來討論跟處理好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":8151.067,"end":8169.72,"text":"好,謝謝王玉明委員發言接下來請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席有請邱部長"},{"start":8175.452,"end":8178.235,"text":"國務委員好 國務委員好 國務委員好 國務委員好 國務委員好 國務委員好 國務委員好 國務委員好"},{"start":8191.548,"end":8210.607,"text":"那這次也很高興有機會透過江副院長的率領以這個四島團的名義去參加相關的在瑞士的活動那在這個過程真的非常感謝很多友邦還有友好國家、民團跟僑界共同努力期待讓台灣"},{"start":8211.708,"end":8226.786,"text":"需要全球健康的維護得到一個公平對待的機會雖然很可惜我們還是得要真的要譴責中共跟巴基斯坦這一些國家那麼不友善"},{"start":8228.288,"end":8246.028,"text":"讓我們臺灣的民眾無法接受Has for all這樣的一個全球的要求不過還是非常感謝包括外交部的所有同仁都住在國的三位大使還有在現場的包括我們的外交部的同仁還有江科長共同的努力"},{"start":8246.568,"end":8265.266,"text":"讓我們在這個過程裡面可以有機會去跟在瑞士的僑團跟相關的組織還有那邊的國會議員都有很好的互動很想要了解的就是剛剛也有很多委員提到參與很多相關的這個"},{"start":8268.949,"end":8283.021,"text":"雙邊會談那這些雙邊會談有一些有簽訂的模擬有一些有具體的一些內容那到底哪一些部分是可以利用這個機會再向國人做報告讓大家都能夠"},{"start":8283.882,"end":8311.476,"text":"謝謝。"},{"start":8312.197,"end":8326.337,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝文委員的辛苦,而且在那邊代表世導團有卓越的貢獻也協助我們世衛行動團很大的幫助,非常的感謝"},{"start":8327.622,"end":8346.812,"text":"那我以前當立委或當議事公會理事長到那邊的時候我都覺得說 哇 怎麼這麼多秘密活動啊 外交部那邊的消息 社會團的人怎麼一下就不見、一下就不見 那我們立委團就跑去國會參觀、去各個醫院參觀 原來他們都在談這些雙邊的會議 這次雙邊會議我才每一次、每一場"},{"start":8355.27,"end":8371.704,"text":"不但要周全的準備我很敬佩能夠找到真的能夠找到那麼多的國家這個外交部我很敬佩而且成績都越來越高但是你會發現這一場這個水明說不能照相不能送禮不能公告"},{"start":8372.665,"end":8396.333,"text":"的很多表示說真的我們的外交的壓力還是相當的大那自己說剛剛有提過可以那個外交部有提過可以來公告可以來分享的話我們絕對沒有什麼好保留的一定要拿出來就像我們把WHA所有討論的健康議題我們一五一十在像去年我們就到那邊考察"},{"start":8398.914,"end":8408.366,"text":"就是希望完全公開WHA所有的任何的資訊讓國人都能夠來了解共同來為健康台灣來努力"},{"start":8409.397,"end":8427.031,"text":"好,我們很期待這樣的有新的目標或者是原來合作機制能夠持續延續而且對全民的健康在各方面都有很重要的這些努力要完成的部分讓大家都能夠很清楚的了解"},{"start":8427.971,"end":8453.062,"text":"再過來就是沿著剛剛王委員所提到的大流行公約的部分這部分其實本席非常非常的關心因為我們知道WHO裡面第14期的工作計畫六大優先領域裡面最後一項就是即時偵測並有效的因應健康衛生禁止事件我相信這個都是為了這一次的疫情所衍生出來的一些重要的議題"},{"start":8454.122,"end":8465.918,"text":"那在這個部分對於未來如果我們真的無法像剛剛一群副署長所提到的我們無法接受參與這個實際的這個討論的話"},{"start":8470.865,"end":8490.544,"text":"就是類似聯合國這樣的角色的時候那我們如何從疫苗的研發疫情當中的一些物資的儲備還有這個資訊的流通取得還有相關的研究這方面如何能夠讓國人也非常安心的知道即使我們不具有官方的這種"},{"start":8493.186,"end":8507.323,"text":"準備之下我們如何能夠針對這些疫情可能帶來的下一次的衝擊有做好完整的準備這部分可不可以也利用這個機會請讓國人安心知道我們努力的方向"},{"start":8508.271,"end":8528.501,"text":"好謝謝王委員我先以我過去多年來從SARS以及到COVID這幾年帶領團隊在全國的EJ在看配合政府在看這個COVID的一個經驗其實我們"},{"start":8531.485,"end":8547.554,"text":"我們的體系的韌性算相當的好所以大概都能夠早期在各個角落都能夠早期的detect到相關的信息或者實際上的個案其實像在海關"},{"start":8548.775,"end":8560.22,"text":"這也非常的辛苦他們鎖住每一個可能性到現在還是非常到現在還是非常的辛苦都日以繼夜在做這個我真的非常要感佩這個"},{"start":8562.757,"end":8591.776,"text":"所以相關的一些工作同仁那在醫藉這個部分因為病人是會跑到醫藉來嘛就會面對醫師大家醫師也比人比較緊張你不知道這個患者來修是什麼東西所以其實醫藉更緊張所以在不管是在醫院的急診或者在第一線的門診其實我們的訓練都非常的完整防疫的一個訓練尤其加上這次COVID全國或者是各個縣市"},{"start":8593.057,"end":8616.452,"text":"像我在全國醫師公會主持過至少50場以上的全國各縣市的全國防疫會議和帶給全國分享全國的怎麼樣在第一線來防疫我想這個也是電力很好的一個防疫的韌性所以未來相關的一些新興的疾病我相信台灣是很有實力來"},{"start":8618.494,"end":8633.554,"text":"來找期來偵測來守住但是大流行公園是一個大家這個好像是世界大家庭所應該共同來分享臺灣這樣的一個優等生卻不能進去這個教室去分享這個連世界醫師會都寫信給WHA的"},{"start":8636.357,"end":8652.928,"text":"律師長說這是一種羞恥的事情沒有讓臺灣這優等生進去分享當然我們也沒有那麼驕傲說去分享還有很多是要互相學習的但是總是要進去教事這個也是我們努力的方向我不曉得易經律師長有沒有要補充"},{"start":8654.846,"end":8680.253,"text":"簡單跟委員補充我想兩點第一個就是我們持續厚植我們國內防疫的一個基礎不管是防疫物資或者是疫苗藥品的一些準備那另外就國際幫我們善盡責任因為這個大流行公約是希望說能夠談出一個成果讓資訊跟一些病毒株的分享能夠更快速更公開透明另外就是說提供這個病毒株之後研發出來的疫苗藥物等成果也要能夠回饋給國際社會"},{"start":8681.713,"end":8693.646,"text":"那我想我們除了善盡國際責任能夠不管有沒有加入都能夠符合這個國際上面的需求之外也會來注意整個公約裡頭一些權利義務的部分有沒有能夠對我們有利的部分來盡量爭取"},{"start":8695.342,"end":8718.943,"text":"好 謝謝很期待台灣作為一個全球重要防疫的第一線我們希望能夠把握這樣的機會也能夠充分的參與好 謝謝再過來要麻煩這個外交部有關於如何能夠兩個部會之間相關的配合不曉得陳市長對於以價值外交"},{"start":8720.484,"end":8740.856,"text":"來推動參與WHA或者是同步的透過臺灣這個醫療的實力有辦法讓全球知道說我們的這個衛生價值還有外交價值事實上是可以同步來運作讓世界可以看得到而且更願意來接納臺灣"},{"start":8742.632,"end":8762.293,"text":"謝謝委員您剛剛的這個質詢我們非常同意有就是說您剛剛所提到說因為我們本來就是一個極度重視而且非常努力去實踐提升關於法治人權自由民主的一個國家那尤其我們在公共醫療體系這樣的努力跟成果而且又是全世界"},{"start":8763.693,"end":8781.68,"text":"的一份子所以當然未來我們在推動我們的外交工作裡面的一個主軸除了說同盟外交、經貿外交以外就是價值外交那我們能夠其實在這個工作上面可以把這兩個相互結合也就是價值外交裡面一定有包含"},{"start":8781.92,"end":8782.38,"text":"台灣當然也可以貢獻。"},{"start":8793.971,"end":8815.438,"text":"好謝謝那其實這一次我有利用去到瑞士的機會也配同我們的國民健康署的衛副署長去UICC就是世界抗癌聯盟一起去報告我們臺灣在有關的癌症的整個防護還有整個癌症"},{"start":8816.218,"end":8817.979,"text":"謝謝王建旭委員那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9568.579,"end":9570.32,"text":"邀請衛福部長、邱部長"},{"start":9596.271,"end":9606.744,"text":"部長早安喔,先恭喜您喔那接下來非常多千頭萬緒的事情我們要開展那我們辦公室一直都關心而上我們就直接切入的部分喔部長我想問你有小孩對不對"},{"start":9608.935,"end":9636.641,"text":"有啊有啊有而且我記得我上次去看臺威斯杯的時候我看到你跟小孩一起去看球因為那天我也有去看球看網球只是我不好意思跟你打招呼因為才剛經過這樣那部長我問你如果你要把再回到20年前10年前你要把你的小孩送去這種民間的教練這種社團練習各式各樣的球類運動學習那你會不會擔心他如果遇到有不當對待兒少經驗的教練或者是大人你會不會擔心"},{"start":9638.581,"end":9657.227,"text":"就是說他曾經有過對小孩不好的體罰啦霸凌啦相關的經驗你會不會擔心如果你把小孩送到這樣的教練但是你又不知道他是這樣的人因為我們在送小孩去一定會先評估打聽打聽這個教練班或者是學校是那當然會去討論對對對對那會訓練到怎麼樣是這是"},{"start":9661.108,"end":9661.548,"text":"當然當然當然當然當然"},{"start":9682.634,"end":9709.141,"text":"衛福部的CRC這個相關資訊網裡面可以查到只要有對小孩有不好的紀錄跟相關的教練我們就從衛福部的這個CRC平台可以查到目前相關的資料已經都上網而且目前的狀況也還算不錯說實話當然有一些可以改進的地方可是因為目前有相關公告姓名機制的法源落在三個法兒少法、幼兆法跟教保條例也就是說"},{"start":9709.941,"end":9716.37,"text":"如果我是家長我要現在去查某某某例如說陳培宇有沒有曾經以前體罰過小孩不當對待、霸凌讓我的小孩在這個"},{"start":9719.286,"end":9738.676,"text":"學球的過程當中受到不好的對待家長沒有辦法直接查詢來看下一頁那目前兒少法的部分我剛剛說其實還是有些困難可是目前看起來在兒少法CRC網站上我們可以看到例如說第一個人叫黃玉倫他違反兒童及少年福利權益法保障第97條88相關的樣態那詳情點下去就會有一些資料這個是目前家長查得到的可是再往下"},{"start":9745.697,"end":9760.902,"text":"我們之前就告訴衛福部說你們只有管那個不是從教育機關來的可是教育現場也有很多對待小孩不當行為的人衛福部應該要把資料納進來所以我們辦公室經過去年一整年不斷跟衛福部討論我們開了很多協調會也開了記者會總算衛福部現在這邊把"},{"start":9766.544,"end":9784.372,"text":"違反右照法還有教保服務人員條例的這些跟老師等級有關的資料也都納進來了我們非常感謝衛福部非常積極可是部長你有沒有發現如果我是一個家長我按進來我一下按這裡一下按那裡基本上我沒有辦法一件事查詢我沒有辦法那麼直覺"},{"start":9785.712,"end":9809.725,"text":"所以對我來說我身為一個家長我到底要怎麼樣保護我的小孩確保我的小孩要送去面對這個大人這個教練這個老師他是不是有曾經不當對待小孩的事情這個部分我覺得我們一定還可以再多做一點什麼事情那我就直接跟部長分享到底可以做什麼來下一頁我們之前跟衛福部在討論的時候我們其實也問過衛福部有沒有可能有技術上的困難"},{"start":9810.325,"end":9829.908,"text":"做到所謂一件事查詢。我在5月27日就跑去了交通委員會我問了訴發部因為訴發部說他們要做數位樣態的盤點我就問他那我們訴發部可不可以積極協助衛福部做相關技術的整合讓家長更直觀的可以一件事查詢"},{"start":9830.749,"end":9853.136,"text":"所以一剛開始我才會問部長說部長你身為父親你會不會希望很快速的可以查到你即將把小孩送去的這個教練他過去有沒有不當的資料訴法部說他們願意協助衛福部、跨部會調整這個技術層面一次解決讓所有的家長可以一個網頁一件事查詢陳培宇某某某有沒有犯過相關的法令好部長聽到這裡你覺得這樣聽起來有沒有對家長是一個好事"},{"start":9859.287,"end":9873.552,"text":"應該是一件好事情對對對沒錯這個是好事啦部長只是我們需要花一些時間所以我們在想說我們這樣時間壓久一點好不好我們機會在今年年底以前我們把這個網站建制完成你看我壓很長部長"},{"start":9876.753,"end":9900.713,"text":"這個部分我們會再跟書發部再做一些確認跟討論那看後續的界面要怎麼設計是會比較完善的所以你們那請問一下你們站在家長的角度絕對是好事我們要全力以赴去做就對了好那我時間已經壓到年底可是我說年底不是說年底才跟我們進度而是我們希望在年底可以看到這個網站上線可以嗎我們馬上回去就開始進行"},{"start":9901.514,"end":9929.847,"text":"好太好了謝謝部長我們會積極追蹤喔那最後跟部長分享喔延續的對CRC的關懷部長今年臺灣兒童權利公約實行法國內法化10週年那這件事情我相信部長過去在您的專業領域可能對兒少不是這麼熟悉但是我相信部長您上任之後一定會積極推動更多兒少保護政策甚至我們辦公室有更多的訴求希望後續都有機會再跟衛福部討論不管是因為兒少工作證或者是相關"},{"start":9930.667,"end":9943.417,"text":"體育教學現場對兒少的不友善這個部分我們都希望接下來可以跟部長一起努力好謝謝指教好謝謝那就拜託部長囉好我們一起努力謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝陳培鈺委員發言接下來請盧憲一委員發言"},{"start":9955.919,"end":9957.741,"text":"主席有請部長跟師長請邱部長跟孫師長國際組織師孫師長委員囉"},{"start":9974.062,"end":9999.231,"text":"部長好,我們都是一屆你也是我的大學長,我們都是家庭醫師先恭喜你那我想先知道說我們被漠視8年這8年我們想說跟各個邦交國的一些或者是跟我們進口外勞這些我們移工的這些合作國家有沒有尋求他們的資源跟幫助比如說我們在第二頁看到說"},{"start":10001.953,"end":10017.61,"text":"是美國、捷克建立了實質合作可是我們引進外老有越南、印尼、菲律賓跟泰國我們有沒有想辦法從這些我們引進國家的這些外老的國家呢幫我們發聲我覺得好像都沒有看到這方面的資料"},{"start":10019.503,"end":10042.046,"text":"你也知道我們在醫療上這幾個國家都是我們算是在亞洲地方非常合作的在醫療上合作那在外交上為什麼有那麼多的必須要考慮的我先請問一下那個WHA目前的Chairman是誰"},{"start":10045.196,"end":10046.538,"text":"韓國瑜主席 韓國瑜主席"},{"start":10060.958,"end":10079.557,"text":"我的意思就是說我為什麼會特別提剛剛我講的是外勞引進的國家現在我們明年我們不是要跟印度簽了MOU嗎那我們有沒有嘗試說從這個教育區當中去跟印度講說也幫幫忙我們在WHA發聲應該是要有一個這樣一個邏輯這樣很好的合作模式可以嗎可以好不好"},{"start":10080.778,"end":10106.074,"text":"不然我們永遠突破不了那個8年的困境我們也想辦法讓全世界的人知道說我們有多優秀我們有多努力我剛剛看了都是一些不說my health my right這些癌症篩檢偏鄉離島可是如果我們沒有進去的人再怎麼知道我們到底在做什麼是感覺說我們很辛苦可是得不到實際的一些更好的一個層面然後第二個就是我剛剛看了就是比較屬於這個"},{"start":10108.527,"end":10110.128,"text":"紐西蘭為我們直言,我想知道他說了什麼?紐西蘭為我們直言,還記得嗎?"},{"start":10138.514,"end":10154.148,"text":"是報告委員那紐西蘭為我們直言就是基本上是講說臺灣應該要被邀請這個參加就是說在整個促進全球衛生健康至上也就是說他很堅定的幫我們講話那荷蘭呢荷蘭的話就是以不遺漏任何人"},{"start":10154.628,"end":10170.202,"text":"那包含就是說只要對全球衛生有貢獻的都應該被納入到全球武力當中?按照我的理解荷蘭曾經是我們的殖民國家曾經殖民過臺灣他當然有想盡辦法可以幫我們我們也可以想盡辦法跟他套取這個連結"},{"start":10171.883,"end":10172.663,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":10199.057,"end":10207.54,"text":"您和蕭薇娜有合適的脂肪和脂肪交換率達到90%但蕭薇娜已被療程8天而治療風險相當高拜託,拜託不要放棄我女兒,拜託!如果您不放棄,我們也不會放棄"},{"start":10236.171,"end":10241.336,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":10262.864,"end":10277.575,"text":" Today is not a beautiful day."},{"start":10279.385,"end":10280.106,"text":"．邀請施琳去台灣．﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10308.987,"end":10330.659,"text":"這影片做得很好我很肯定不過剛剛看了主角那看了主角以後你看到我你有什麼感覺看到主角你主角看到我有什麼感覺感覺我們像是一家人因為我們是南島語系的國家"},{"start":10332.25,"end":10349.582,"text":"剛才我只聽了一遍我就會說了 我也不知道什麼意思不過因為是因為我們南島語系的關係 我們會很熟悉那樣的一個發言就像之前那個就是那個我們之前的那個實案事件 它是南島語族的話 我的意思就是說"},{"start":10350.442,"end":10373.854,"text":"我們在推這個影片的時候,如果它是南島語系的國家,你是不是應該多放在菲律賓啊印尼啊這種比較屬於這個南島語系的國家,它的觀看次數會更多啊目前全世界最大的民主國家是印尼,兩億多人那為什麼不放在那邊讓那麼多人來感動,所以我們台灣的業務有多麼進步我們不是只是展現說我們很會換肝,我們的醫生很厲害,不是這樣"},{"start":10374.684,"end":10398.046,"text":"謝謝!"},{"start":10398.482,"end":10400.163,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請我們的邱部長 請邱部長"},{"start":10429.687,"end":10442.842,"text":"委員好部長好首先謝謝辛苦歸國感謝大家現在我們國家在國際上的這個外交不容易所以也特別肯定特別辛苦那加油謝謝那再來就是部長"},{"start":10443.905,"end":10461.094,"text":"我想要問一下因為這幾年因為要控制我們的藥費增加所以有許多新藥是被限縮給付那限縮的範圍當然包含這個療程、給付用藥時間等等那造成這個被限縮給付的藥品並不符合國際上的臨床指引"},{"start":10461.934,"end":10484.514,"text":"所以病人很困擾那常見的狀況是病人用藥一段時間之後健保就不給付也只能自費那醫生也很困擾因為醫生也知道說可以開給某個適合病人的藥可是因為健保不給付了所以成本也變高了所以他可能病人負擔不起所以就改用其他藥我想這個部長你應該知道這個狀況是"},{"start":10485.915,"end":10512.166,"text":"現在問題也一一浮現包括原廠開發在我國也找不到合格的病人做臨床實驗所以臺灣也已經在國際的新藥開發市場中逐漸被忽視了未來有許多新藥研發也將不會有我國的data醫師也無法爭取發表研究我覺得這部分也會將使我們我國整體的醫療發展停滯再來就是剝奪病患爭取成為新藥開發的試驗對象"},{"start":10515.144,"end":10538.18,"text":"因為有許多疾病也是現行藥物沒辦法治療的只能爭取在新藥開發的時候爭取成為臨床試驗的對象並且藥廠會支付全部病人的費用所以請教部長限縮給付雖然省錢但是也造成剛剛所提到的問題部長我想您自己也是臺大醫院家醫科的教授相信您也很清楚"},{"start":10538.88,"end":10540.584,"text":"那想要問說部長會不會考慮將這個用藥給付條件調整制和國際醫療指引一樣"},{"start":10549.151,"end":10572.129,"text":"這個跟這個指引一致的這個部分因為想要問部長的態度喔因為這個問題當然我們知道他也受限於經費有限所以有點難但除了經費之外我們應該還是要以病人為中心嘛對吧同時也要考量到我們的醫療科技的發展所以想要問部長就是說你對於這個部分你有什麼想法那你是否願意去評估去推動這個新藥國際醫療指引全體付"},{"start":10574.958,"end":10597.139,"text":"是,真的非常敬佩我們廖委員能夠這麼瞭解到這個醫療的需求跟現在的狀況以及像甚至臨床試驗這些事情這麼重要的都能夠瞭解真的非常敬佩那我想您提的能夠給我們的給臺灣的病人完全符合國際醫療指引"},{"start":10600.097,"end":10628.325,"text":"的一個治療跟給他幾戶這是絕對是國家應該做的方向而且我們的確在做像今年就在新藥各方面的就比去年又多一倍我們未來希望爭取全民認可能夠有更多的健康投資希望能夠來達到這樣一個國際的標準我想是未來重要的目標好謝謝部長"},{"start":10629.185,"end":10645.214,"text":"另外就是為了鼓勵用藥後收集真實世界的數據並且發展成真實世界的證據這個部分我也想問說我們健保制度上是否也應該去評估怎麼樣去支持跟鼓勵"},{"start":10647.606,"end":10668.668,"text":"這個沒關係我們署長您幫忙跟委員報告確實這個有些新藥那麼受限於它的個案或者是臨床的突破性有的在臨床二期就取得藥證所以我們需要更多的真實世界資料來做佐證所以我們在去年開始也導入了暫時性支付的概念"},{"start":10669.088,"end":10692.433,"text":"就是對於這些病人有臨床上需求但是臨床證據還有一些不足的我們先讓他到健保來給付但是在兩年到三年的時間內我們來收集真實世界資料來作為最後那麼兩年之後過了之後的這個決定所以我們在今年1月1日也成立了這個HTA的專責單位就是醫療科技評估的專責單位來協助做"},{"start":10696.894,"end":10710.408,"text":"真實世界資料的收集跟後續的分析。了解。所以這部分你們還是會持續的去思考怎麼去支持跟這個獎勵和吸引他們嘛對不對?是。是。是。OK。沒問題。謝謝。那再來就是下一個問題喔。部長"},{"start":10712.189,"end":10740.752,"text":"這一兩年有許多醫院都面臨關床的這個困境那有區域醫院已經關了這個三成的病床那當然有人說的說法就是急缺這個護理師所以有病床卻開不得導致很多病人都塞在這個急診室但衛福部卻說根據今年的這個統計5月跟去年5月同期相比你們的護理人員增加總病床數也增加所以我想要問一下衛福部的意思是說沒有媒體描述的這個關床潮嗎"},{"start":10744.583,"end":10766.719,"text":"這個我先回答一下我想我們統計的是不是那個是整個傳輸啦那跟實際上的real World大家也知道我整天在這個醫院混啦每天我就看到這些你現在照出來的景象你每天可以感受到當天的狀況"},{"start":10768.18,"end":10794.072,"text":"那以台大醫院來講我昨天跟院長也討論了很久台大醫院是不是有關床的現象但是中南部或者那個我相信可能會有需要床開少一點的這個部分那他的原因這個如果真的有這種情況而影響到"},{"start":10796.693,"end":10803.898,"text":"應該照顧的病人受到影響 這個都是我們政府一定要去改善、去瞭解的我們來瞭解原因到底是護理人力不足嗎 還是因為"},{"start":10811.96,"end":10838.065,"text":"因為點值如果你做太多點值是不是會有影響等等的其實我們要去了解到這個因素這部分的原因是不是可以請部長盡速的找出來然後要怎麼解喔因為我要告訴您的是全國都知道因為缺護理師這也可能是其中之一的原因您剛剛有提到嘛對不對所以導致關床但是這個趙副市長卻反問關床的醫院是哪幾家喔市長"},{"start":10839.025,"end":10842.366,"text":"其實我們並沒有否認關闖 而是說他整個統計數據 所以我們後來自己在檢討說這樣的一個數據是沒辦法代表實際上大家所關心的事情 所以在這邊跟大家抱歉沒有呈現一個 我們只呈現我們所擁有的資料 因為各個議院關闖"},{"start":10866.82,"end":10890.417,"text":"他不會去跟衛生主管報告因為如果他知道說你怪這麼多好,部長沒關係,我給你看下一頁喔50層你阿伯就給你減,這樣就對了對,我知道所以我跟你講這就是有數據佐證喔因為反正你們剛剛說總值登人數有增加但為何地區醫院以上的護理師人力還是卻一再的流失喔那所以實際上"},{"start":10892.25,"end":10906.125,"text":"當然這是不是其中的原因要拜託衛福部趕快去了解清楚並改善因為這有關於我們一般民眾這個就醫的權益喔那我們來看一下這個數據喔我們是從貴部的網站上去下載這份資料喔"},{"start":10906.536,"end":10928.919,"text":"那我也挑了比較有資源有能力的醫學中心層級去比較那從這個比較表其實可以看出來疫情前108年醫中的戰狀率平均接近8成5但是疫後這個111年的資料已經掉到7成5那112年跟113年更慘恐怕有7成都有困難"},{"start":10929.676,"end":10954.981,"text":"那連醫學中心都這麼慘更不要說這個區醫院和地區醫院所以後來我也把這108年109年的這個Q1還有111年跟112年的每個年度的第一季的戰床率戰床率去比較可以清楚看出來我們平看到這個數據平均從7成和6成掉到112年的4成8所以平均也有掉了22%"},{"start":10957.119,"end":10983.881,"text":"所以這就是實務上會認為說關床有達到三成的原因所以我要告訴部長這個數據明明也清清楚楚的為什麼你們就不願意面對那要看要怎麼解決呢對不對威傑這個原因當然你剛剛都有講我覺得一定要面對對一定要面對那我那個第一次的回答那只是一個數據的呈現未來我相信我們衛福部會針對"},{"start":10986.783,"end":11011.712,"text":"我們比如說在上次輸液的時候人工輸液的時候我也請全國醫療院所、醫事公會去調查所有的醫療院所到底缺了多少一樣的我們現在會跟相關的團體來密切的結合來才能真正了解到不管是醫中、區域、地區醫院到底他的情況是怎麼樣我們要一個一個分別來解決"},{"start":11012.392,"end":11030.806,"text":"部長那可不可以告訴我們說因為這個數據還蠻明顯的嘛我們知道在做管理的時候你總是要有個目標啦我們希望說你們瞭解情況之後是不是可以真實的瞭解說這樣的占床率那你們未來希望這個東西可以怎麼這個數據會怎麼改善以前是87的"},{"start":11035.539,"end":11058.678,"text":"因為我也當過醫學中心的部主任,所以常常每個禮拜都在那邊檢討各科的戰狀律師,我對戰狀律師非常敏感。小台大醫院全部都90幾%的,都98%可能也如果但是...但是平均啊,我給你的數據也是你們的資料啊。對啦,有的是可能是一般急性病房或者是特殊病房,特殊病房有時候..."},{"start":11059.739,"end":11061.921,"text":"但是護理人力的需要充實,我想這是"},{"start":11073.976,"end":11095.543,"text":"最急迫要做的事情是因為部長您也剛上任了但是這個問題也好幾年了啦我想部長是不是可以到時候也把這個資料研究清楚和提供這個你們打算怎麼解決的方案給本席好嗎好一定然後再來我趕快再問一題喔所以我知道時間到部長下一頁就是其實在賴總統在2021年的時候有這個健保的國事論壇"},{"start":11096.883,"end":11116.608,"text":"其實剛剛講到有關於病床的癥結點其實也有部分可能跟這個健保點子有關那2021年的時任副總統現在的賴總統說這個20幾年來不會言健保制度也存在很多問題那去年賴總統說要召開健保國事會議想要請問部長什麼時候要召開其實"},{"start":11118.508,"end":11132.002,"text":"建保國事會議已經我的認知已經包含在過去五六場一個健康台灣大論壇、全國大論壇裡面已經提出了很多具體短期、中期、長期"},{"start":11133.303,"end":11160.925,"text":"我們要解決的一些健保的改革那這個部分因為今天你沒有時間我們從公務依算歸公務就說公務依算不能用在健保裡面等等的這些處理那這個就可以提出一些經費那是不是研議相關的一些一些再可能是不是部長因為這個研議真的是研議相當的研議研議了非常的久所以這次的研議是很記題"},{"start":11162.206,"end":11185.359,"text":"對,所以可不可以請部長到時候盡速的提出到底你們的願景要怎麼改?我想因為...因為願景講的都很美好,但始終是願景喔,看起來問題就是存在,那我們一直不面對,一直不改善,這個東西也做了好久了。這個一定要解決,這個一定要...所以部長您認真一定會強力的推動解決對不對?我過去10點就每天在解決這個問題,未來一定更加努力。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝委員。"},{"start":11186.98,"end":11204.931,"text":"好,謝謝廖偉祥委員現在處理臨時提案總共有兩案請一併宣讀第一案為落實衛生福利部分級醫療之推動建請衛生福利部研議與新增次醫療區域後評估部立醫院或協請新北市衛生局加入該次醫療區域"},{"start":11206.272,"end":11232.557,"text":"成立區域醫院以健全北海岸地區分級醫療網絡提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、劉建國、蘇巧慧第二案未能全面性推動保護性業務回應其業務性質及組織規模建請衛生福利部就家庭暴力防治中心家庭暴力及性侵害防治中心研議調整其定位包含對其編制進行通案檢視與盤整並協助建立相關基準"},{"start":11235.077,"end":11258.754,"text":"作為考試院全區部審查該中心編修案之參考依據提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、劉建國、蘇巧慧宣讀完畢。好,請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見?沒有。沒有。好。那就照案通過。那第二案?行政單位有沒有意見?"},{"start":11262.008,"end":11262.468,"text":"我們請邱太元部長"},{"start":11285.832,"end":11302.962,"text":"好部長好部長第10屆的時候本席跟您都是在中心大樓地下一樓的委員所以常常那時候在走廊上也都會互相的碰到面那現在您高升到我們衛福部的部長不敢不敢想請教那剛剛也才這個風塵僕僕回國那也為臺灣為我們中華民國來努力"},{"start":11308.123,"end":11335.084,"text":"接任衛福部長你認為現在面臨到衛福部有哪些重要的課題必須要面對跟解決我想就是繼續提升我們台灣醫療的韌性醫療防疫的韌性這是最大的保護我們台灣全體國人的健康這是最大的一個目標那這當中當然要有各種狀況來解決如果從醫療的角度"},{"start":11336.515,"end":11361.576,"text":"當然我們希望能夠提升繼續提升我們醫療品質第二個我們能夠保障我們醫療團隊醫療人員的尊嚴跟專業第三個能夠讓我們臺灣所有的醫療院所在他各個層級都能夠很順利的運轉好好的照顧當地的國人醫療的部分因為可能也跟您之前是醫師背景有所相關"},{"start":11363.038,"end":11378.277,"text":"請榮本席先再提醒衛福部不只是醫療食品安全衛生非常重要社會安全網非常重要所以食安、社安也都是國人所關注不過既然今天您有提到醫療本席就來跟您先討論醫療的部分醫療"},{"start":11380.68,"end":11407.173,"text":"建保有可能是一大方向尤其大家講說建保改革的一個必要性包括點植以及包括醫療可是我先請教近期內有發生這個國內永豐化學被食藥署稽查認定違反標準所以說勒令官場5月20號那個時候還講是說這個是有民間或媒體在操作恐慌說只是吃緊啦沒有缺貨那個點滴沒有缺貨那現在又說要啟動專案進口"},{"start":11409.497,"end":11409.557,"text":"十二屆會議"},{"start":11425.083,"end":11447.582,"text":"那過去曾經有嚴重違反GMP這樣的一個記錄大概是在104年的時候104年所以2015年到現在那也不是算是第一次出包可是呢它算是一個高風險的這樣的一個製造生產廠商但我們還是讓它變成是說現在佔全臺灣市佔率七成"},{"start":11448.581,"end":11467.347,"text":"那因為現在突然間讓他關場了結果我們就變成是說有七成的一個缺口部長我先請教一下重要的民生物民生藥品甚至有可能他會是戰備物資的一個情況變成寡占市場你覺得這有沒有"},{"start":11468.482,"end":11485.502,"text":"我只有從這個事件裡面我們這幾天其實醫界還有相關的部門就認為要重新來思考就委員所提的戰備這種概念以免有缺藥或缺重要的物資的事情"},{"start":11486.104,"end":11511.599,"text":"一個市占高達七成的廠商他過去有那麼有粗暴的經驗那現在被我們食藥署勒令停場而且他勒令停場的狀況其實是數據造假其實是展延許可的問題那現在突然間變成是廠商把持了我們這個民生藥品跟這個戰略物資那再請教這一次我們說要花專案進口來"},{"start":11514.383,"end":11515.246,"text":"請教我們會預計要花多少錢?"},{"start":11526.382,"end":11543.789,"text":"委員報告因為它分成兩塊一個是暫時性就是短期的專案進口那這個費用因為還有貨櫃傳運的成本都會比較高那這邊大概短期是多短期就是到10月間到10月對好預計會花多少錢"},{"start":11546.01,"end":11560.095,"text":"這邊會多支出大概2點多億2點多億算2.5億啦是不是還有沒有評估那另外10月之後勒那另外一部分是在這段期間也會有國內的"},{"start":11561.415,"end":11562.816,"text":"會提高多少?目前的預估大概也會在2點"},{"start":11587.148,"end":11611.685,"text":"那個量還沒有完全因為他們產能要出來才知道那個量有多少所以還沒有辦法預估最後的影響但是你剛剛講說也是差不多2點多億是不是應該是說前面那個是FDA已經核准專案進口的量所以那個量知道價知道所以能夠估出大概2點多億我們這次2點多億可以進口多少的量"},{"start":11613.079,"end":11640.738,"text":"大概是400萬坪左右來部長回過頭來我想這一次這樣子的一個專案有沒有預計會到什麼時候這個專案要延續到多久專案進口專案進口也好或說你剛剛有講到說核價的部分可能要到跟配合國內的產物應該要到半年"},{"start":11642.131,"end":11660.353,"text":"國內的產能要上來至少要半年的時間產能才能上來這之前可能還是要靠專案進口好部長這其實這一個都是盤根錯節的問題過去你也長期在衛煌委員會所以你也很了解其實健保的要價的部分是不是過去一直大家也講是說有"},{"start":11661.921,"end":11675.45,"text":"的一個情況那再加上在這一次裡面你說相關的進口價比我們健保支付價其實要提高的比較多那還有我們現在要用比較高的這個健保的一個費用來去請其他國內廠商來去購買"},{"start":11678.553,"end":11693.833,"text":"未來是不是應該就要考慮要調整這個健保的一個價格否則的話變成是廠商現在沒有意願啊為什麼會變成是說讓一個廠商他可以寡占然後七成的就是因為其他廠商其實其他廠也可以做但是為什麼到時候會變成是這個情況"},{"start":11695.322,"end":11711.712,"text":"我覺得委員提的這個方向是應該要嚴厲來改善這是真的很根本的問題因為部長您之前的這個質詢我也有去調查資料也看過這也都是您之前一直很關心的議題所以我們不希望說只是"},{"start":11714.259,"end":11730.373,"text":"這個講講什麼時候我們會落實因為您剛上任還不到一個月因為這個是牽涉到整個財務整個財務的問題如果你這邊多一點是不是你的診察會就會少一點是所以這當然餅就那麼大嘛如果說除非我們現在也講說我們要調漲"},{"start":11731.57,"end":11758.451,"text":"相關的費用 對不對不然接下來你一定面臨到因為你一開始就開宗明義講說醫療的部分品質的提升以及相關的藥物的部分那兩塊啊本期認為說現在很重要一個是藥價的部分一個是健保點值的部分嘛等於是一個是人一個是藥品嘛就是一個是醫師護理師等相關人員那一個是藥品都很重要是那具體的做法是什麼"},{"start":11760.908,"end":11778.211,"text":"你是不是要找相關的財主單位我們來開會還是說來做討論然後真真正正來去做當然健保的改革是一個重要的健保的改革裡面就會牽涉到剛剛您提的那兩個問題是 那部長要怎麼做"},{"start":11780.27,"end":11796.27,"text":"你上任,我們期待新官上任相把火什麼時候會提出來一個比較具體可行的辦法包括健保的改革包括財源的增加包括健保點值以及包括藥品"},{"start":11797.051,"end":11809.664,"text":"因為現在我們也有委員在提相關的修法那健保典值的部分也是賴清德總統那個時候競選的一個承諾我想在短暫的期間必須因為馬上有修法的這個問題我想我們就會趕快提出一個來"},{"start":11813.347,"end":11838.115,"text":"短期必須要趕快做的而這些做的是可以來充實健保的資源來達到讓現在的整個醫界能夠盡量滿意這樣來部長那是不是給我們一個時間表你什麼時候會把這種資料給衛防委員會以及給本市一份如果配套措施應該兩個禮拜之內是是可以提出來一個方向尤其是近期的"},{"start":11839.255,"end":11854.104,"text":"您說只是本席不是要只是針對這一次的永豐的事件的一個配套你們已經在進行了嘛有人講說這就像超市雞蛋進口的翻版啊因為我覺得還是有所差別啦"},{"start":11855.304,"end":11881.955,"text":"因為畢竟並不是說我們的市場沒有調控好然後零時間缺這個我想兩個問題我們的提供資料給你們第一個就是我們的輸液的計畫是怎麼樣這個你們已經在進行了怎麼樣提供給您然後健保的改革的時程我們也很快就提給還有最重要的是要針對問題要去解決啦當然本席要的是說我們現在都知道問題但問題是怎麼解決"},{"start":11884.977,"end":11886.418,"text":"會提出解決的問題兩個禮拜內 有辦法提出來應該是可以提出一個策略"},{"start":11896.914,"end":11916.797,"text":"好不好,侯委員,因為時間的關係我聽到委員說沒中說要比較整理的因為對你所說的每一句話都是政策也都是國人的期待我們會提出策略啦好,部長本席願意請您兩個禮拜內提出也給外交委員會、給本席我們後續還會針對這部分因為這絕對不是一朝一夕可以討論"},{"start":11917.538,"end":11931.25,"text":"但這重點是本席希望您回去找相關部會真的去把問題找出來過去您是監督者現在您是主政者所以一定要把這問題找出來然後來解決這問題好不好?謝謝好謝謝黃孟楷委員接下來請林淑芬委員"},{"start":11942.526,"end":11957.024,"text":"我做一下宣告,不好意思現在請林淑芬委員質詢淑芬委員發言結束,中午就休息30分鐘4分鐘我沒有要講8分鐘,剛才黃孟楷就10幾分鐘了"},{"start":11961.37,"end":11963.451,"text":"我重新宣告,現在請林淑芬委員質詢。楊瓊英委員質詢結束,我們就休息30分鐘。"},{"start":11985.821,"end":12007.962,"text":"委員好部長好我在這裡先和序聲明過去我們是好同事所以情誼沒問題但今天在這裡你已經不是同事關係你是部長然後我是受人民之托要來這裡監督政府的立委所以今天如果態度上如果有稍微嚴格之處那也請你理解那我現在講永豐化學這件事情"},{"start":12008.783,"end":12008.823,"text":"第三個．"},{"start":12030.472,"end":12046.623,"text":"他們重複發生的調製偏差事件並沒有針對根本原因執行矯正預防措施等比如說他們的輸液裡面灌水灌很多有效性不足等等所以導致你們把它停產了七成"},{"start":12049.505,"end":12073.144,"text":"市佔率7成一個月150萬袋的輸液缺口在這裡但我今天要問你部長這個事情石耀署在5月20號發布了一個新聞他說我們石耀署積極調度永豐化學公司平產的替代藥品確保供應穩定這個新聞稿一發布以後呢現在進度怎麼樣沒有要進口"},{"start":12076.843,"end":12099.345,"text":"市長說的誰有,他發布的就馬上飛過去了5月20,食藥署就只是聲明,只有聲明而已然後到6月3號缺藥平台發布了一個大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式前整個食藥署神明書店,現在這個書店你現在是沒有人可以贏了"},{"start":12101.721,"end":12124.942,"text":"這件事早就要落台啊!如果我們沒有落台,你繼續因爲你在附近在這邊我問你5月20到6月3日兩個禮拜沒有足夠的輸液然後醫院裡面等著開刀的病人診所裡面需要的大家這些病患都在等等等,因為你政府沒有對應的政策食藥署在那裡擺爛,不對,這樣還不行"},{"start":12128.649,"end":12143.748,"text":"我想我們所有的相關的部門都真的是每天在努力努力請問你有沒有做出相對應解決缺藥的問題的政策520到6月3日之前通通都沒有看到"},{"start":12145.376,"end":12164.195,"text":"是不是署長要把最近的……不對,你不能叫署長回答,等一下,輪不到吳秀明當時成立缺藥平台有三大目標缺藥平台不是要讓人發現耶缺藥平台成立的目標第一個要解決第二個要緩解第三個要預防缺藥"},{"start":12165.436,"end":12194.082,"text":"缺藥平台這三個功能完全沒有功用那我今天部長我也不是要針對這一次的個案我們是要跟你講回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件食藥署在5月13日在缺藥平台公告了5月13日就公告了輸液畸形短缺徵求有意願供應的廠商然後就沒有了什麼都沒有了"},{"start":12194.844,"end":12212.354,"text":"整個事件是藥師公會發布新聞稿在5月18號指出各類的手術洗腎的透析醫院住院所必需的生理食鹽水葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥是藥師公會然後去反映的"},{"start":12213.354,"end":12228.043,"text":"他一直跟你們講說這樣會造成各大醫院開刀住院停擺然後洗腎的人怎麼辦結果呢5月13日你們就知道你們就跟我們說我們欠這個東西看誰有錢來跟我們說5月18日藥師就跟你們說說這會出問題搞不好你們需要想在5月18當天的回應是什麼你知道嗎部長"},{"start":12237.626,"end":12258.274,"text":"5月18日時要署告訴這些公會跟這醫院診所說已經協調國內其他廠增加產能考慮廠商若有調整產線需要先完成測試評估現在做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格盡量擴充生產並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣"},{"start":12260.014,"end":12267.475,"text":"醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思叫開刀的不要開刀叫洗身的不要洗身叫用書意的都不要用嗎然後我們今天在講他講說國內藥廠欸結果現在到4月他們就知道這個問題拖到現在一兩個月了國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎完全沒有你們現在對案和這個對策也是要進口"},{"start":12291.901,"end":12292.101,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":12307.236,"end":12321.566,"text":"我現在跟你講部長,食藥署在5月20他們發佈了一個我剛剛講的他說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品確保供應穩定的新聞稿以後都沒有更新進度也沒有結果只有6月3日有嘛但是我現在跟你講喔保證有在聽好喔現在我剛才聽你白人問你其實是都"},{"start":12333.322,"end":12336.006,"text":"五月二十一日、五月二十四日、五月二十九日、五月三十一日"},{"start":12348.868,"end":12370.902,"text":"他們次長說提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺食藥署會聯繫並提供服務然後還講到說5月29號公布了健保共理會要加開會議同意啟動緊急專案進口第一批輸液在6月10號前到貨食藥署評估專案期長短在於專案期這個"},{"start":12375.985,"end":12384.578,"text":"要平時價格二到三倍支付所以你們緊急專案進口欸這都不是在政府的官方網站公佈的捏"},{"start":12386.758,"end":12406.586,"text":"次長的臉書變成官方網站網頁了嗎?這種調度的重要資訊衛福部沒有食藥署沒有健保署網站新聞稿通通都沒有短缺藥品的重要訊息是發布是以次長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎?現在是要看次長的臉書粉專是不是?現在是依次長的粉專"},{"start":12416.464,"end":12431.553,"text":"為主政策發布的主要平台,是不是?當然是要以官方的...阿你們都沒有捏?都沒有捏?應該都有阿人民要問責,是要問責次長說你臉書什麼這樣?阿怎麼才是很多天?如果要問責是找次長的臉書,還是要找衛福部?"},{"start":12439.403,"end":12441.483,"text":"現在是怎樣?次長的臉書發佈為主是不是?"},{"start":12468.838,"end":12478.081,"text":"市長是提醒一下,因為他怕議令市長提醒,你官網怎麼都沒有資料為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個有相對應的新聞稿或資料呢不要在這裡說謊喔,藐視國會我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢啦但是十一號署經常在這裡藐視國會署長曾經叫林淑芬時間到了下去"},{"start":12497.182,"end":12507.859,"text":"我是不會主張把你抓起來關啦 也不會主張用錢、罰錢給你解決啦但是藐視國會這種事情 衛福部、食藥署都壞心鬼"},{"start":12509.062,"end":12523.491,"text":"現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣?立委不動我就不動 輿論不動我就不動現在不是咖罵 末梢神經循環有問題現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞掉了所以剛才還可以講到健保低價 這個是不是缺藥的理由?"},{"start":12533.925,"end":12559.431,"text":"我對你說這個是我們回去檢討請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎?您的次長也不承認有這件事喔你們的次長5月20說在藥品價格的部分這一次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品過去9年我們都沒有調降它的價格而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制表示說藥廠也沒有反應說想要調高藥價"},{"start":12561.872,"end":12568.393,"text":"您的署長說的啊,署長臉書說的那我問你,次長臉書是代表官方立場是不是?他說的啊,由您食藥署推卸責任給藥價太低所以沒人要責您的次長說藥價太低過去怎麼都沒錢賺啊我也沒給您調降藥品價格請問我是到底要找誰問責啦人民要問責要找誰,你告訴我次長的臉書"},{"start":12594.485,"end":12608.451,"text":"我講這個是很嚴肅喔次長要個人作秀我沒有意見但是你正式人你政府態度是什麼我人民要問責我要找誰保證現在要繼續亂下去嗎整個體制都混亂啦整個國家整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎麼做我再問你勒保證我們食藥署的藥品組昨天有來嗎"},{"start":12625.897,"end":12643.964,"text":"藥品組主長有來嗎?沒有今天你知道大家會關心這個議題最重要藥品組都沒有來他過去有沒有整理統計國內藥品市佔率不均或者是原料益生短缺的藥品名單來有沒有"},{"start":12649.384,"end":12675.994,"text":"來,依據藥事法27條之2規範的必要藥品481項但我不是在問你們必要藥品必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點但我現在問題的是另外兩個第一個,市佔率不均當頭輕啊,靠一斤在做,別人都不愛做的還有一種是原物料益生短缺有沒有啦,有沒有清單啊"},{"start":12677.762,"end":12687.136,"text":"要品組有在做事嗎?有清單我們有納進去我們之前在評估其實都有把這個考慮進去都放在我們的必要品清單裡面"},{"start":12688.25,"end":12714.41,"text":"來資料拿出來 署長你如果要回答用麥克風列為會議記錄 然後你要馬上明天就把資料提交到我們辦公室 因為你說你有做 我就相信你有做 明天在水搞出來 資料搞出來因為這份必要品清單是新的 我不是在講必要品清單 我是跟你講書意是不是必要品"},{"start":12715.912,"end":12724.661,"text":"蘇易他不在必要品的清單上面啊你都搞不清楚蘇易會在必要品清單上面嗎你連這個都不知道你當署長當幾年了蘇易不在必要品清單裡面"},{"start":12738.564,"end":12739.966,"text":"人民要找誰負責呢"},{"start":12755.24,"end":12782.097,"text":"蘇易絕對不是必要品清單所以我跟你講了必要品清單是法律規定的你一定要好好的統計案盤點他有沒有問題可是這次出事的蘇易他就不是必要品清單所以我再跟你提點兩個第一個叫市占不均第二個叫原料益生短缺永豐蘇易他是市占不均的問題"},{"start":12783.899,"end":12784.82,"text":"有沒有預警機制?"},{"start":12805.962,"end":12816.407,"text":"市政不均的跟原料衛生短缺的有沒有預警機制和處理機制?沒有!現在你用麥克風回答現在不是站在那裡委員給你質詢然後你又點點就可以轉過了沒有的"},{"start":12821.269,"end":12846.124,"text":"因為我們就是在必要品清單這邊來做評估那評估了以後有納進來的就說我們這不是必要品清單因為當時永豐的他其實他市佔率是40%所以我們如果以這樣子去算的話那還有其他的當時現在是七成過去曾經八成有六家好來你再告訴我市佔不均和原料醫生短缺的藥品名單的指標你覺得用什麼當指標"},{"start":12847.725,"end":12860.209,"text":"因為市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺也不一定代表用量大有可能是有替代藥品啊那你有沒有研理指標應該定成什麼?你有沒有去書課過嗎?你有沒有書課過嗎?書訂 我想部長不知道你有沒有思考過市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺如果他用量不大而且有其他替代藥品也不會是問題啊那到底是要管制什麼啊哪些是要"},{"start":12877.759,"end":12879.099,"text":"現在就是沒有替代品用量又很大出問題了"},{"start":12909.195,"end":12933.332,"text":"所以你看,不是腳麻手麻麻,總是神經穿斗齁都中風了,不可以停了啦所以今天以這個案例來看,你們4月就知道了就知道說他沒有獲得展言,沒有辦法繼續因為永豐化學吃定了你政府,吃定了你S藥署吃定了你衛福部,所以敢擺爛"},{"start":12935.694,"end":12942.239,"text":"可是他擺爛你就這樣子一磅的爛啊你現在給他停產 這樣叫世新的不要世新開刀的不要開刀 用輸的不要用輸的嗎你們藥品組最重要藥品組的人沒有來今天不用去用這季 剛才點點都沒有事情藥品組沒有盤點市站不均或醫生短缺的這個會產生問題的藥品"},{"start":12959.713,"end":12978.958,"text":"所以你都說沒藥沒金,你沒藥沒金叫大家病患自求多福捏,緣木求雨捏我再講一下,你剛才署長你說永豐化學2015年出問題他不是只有2015年,他的不良紀錄也有,你的藥品組在做什麼"},{"start":12981.169,"end":13006.821,"text":"2015年檢察院提出對食藥署提出糾正2021年他們也還是出問題他們做的生理實驗署都不合規定2023年的去年是戰率已經八成了他的生理實驗水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物被誰遮住還有黑色的懸浮物"},{"start":13007.679,"end":13015.063,"text":"我都不要說這個個案啦!你們自己看看!你們整個食藥署都可以說因為價格太低,所以調高價格就不會有這個問題就北京也要做價格太低可以成為製造出這種問題的理由和藉口嗎?保證你們說看看"},{"start":13027.344,"end":13041.204,"text":"我想人民的安全是第一啦所以絕對不允許不管價格高人民安全第一這口號我可以講啦現在是你政府做什麼你的食藥署做什麼你的食藥署覺得價格太低覺得去給健保署反映過"},{"start":13042.245,"end":13051.688,"text":"建保署覺得你無奈又貼到過嗎政府是一體這個問題做是沒人要做會存一間壟斷還做得拼一拼屢屢發生問題這種事情你做政府的現在還要有政府政府覺得去協調建保署說這個問題長久不是辦法要怎麼解決"},{"start":13063.772,"end":13068.517,"text":"五月二十九你們的次長說要啟動盤點高風險的藥廠管理負擔他五月二十九臉書啦然後人家採訪他啦"},{"start":13079.989,"end":13084.69,"text":"他說高風險藥廠就是過去茶廠記錄曾經有嚴重缺失的藥廠那未來我們要盤點它未來可能要比較早一點介入這個事情我們未來會重點處理你覺得高風險藥廠的定義是什麼"},{"start":13101.379,"end":13123.859,"text":"委員 那個林委員 因為時間已經超過了 那等一下還有一場要 我要講 我要講 我要講最後一段而已啦 我要補充一下啦 因為喔 有一個訊息是這樣啦 因為林市長他跟議會密合 他趕快要安撫議會的心 所以有時候他急著發臉書 大家知道要怎麼做 這是用心良苦"},{"start":13123.999,"end":13130.003,"text":"這關這麼簡單都用發言書的喔,這麼簡單喔,大家都可以做,不用議啦我現在跟你說啦,什麼叫高風險藥廠,你說不出來你敢知道,過去的茶廠裡面,永豐化學,我們給你討資料,你跟我們說的喔永豐化學除了今年嚴重違反GMP之外,在過去6年沒有任何違反藥事法的紀錄"},{"start":13150.762,"end":13155.664,"text":"但是有很多次都是用回收藥品草草結案這是你們的陳科每一次藥廠都這樣明明就查到了不法都叫他們回收然後你們就不開法連股票上市的藥廠都可以製造劣質藥你們連行者也不敢啟動土法不足以自刑"},{"start":13177.834,"end":13206.09,"text":"所以你高風險就要講大話你若要說這樣他沒有違反過藥事法的紀錄連這個永豐化學你要把它列為高風險恐怕都還有疑慮高風險指標是什麼沒錯你要想一下你要想好藥品的品質三項要素安全、有效、品質上市前要查驗上市後要管理現在我聽說我只要說這裡就好了我聽說"},{"start":13207.911,"end":13226.408,"text":"實要是嚇到啊!事情沒有這麼突然嚇到啊!所以上面有交代下面!例行性檢查、機動性查詳、機查強度都要降低!把警鈴拔掉!然後就不會出問題!不查詳就沒問題!有這件事嗎?你一定說沒有的"},{"start":13233.251,"end":13233.811,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":13265.739,"end":13269.353,"text":"謝謝主席 本席想再邀請部長 請邱部長"},{"start":13276.67,"end":13303.971,"text":"部長好,先恭喜你,但是我們首先要面對這個問題因為台灣洗腎的人很多所以現在不能睡這個健康很危險而且這是很棘手的問題所以這個事情屬於到目前為止到目前為止但在你還沒有出國的時候還沒有回國的時候我們也緊急的調度就是進口就進口,說是製程有問題"},{"start":13305.793,"end":13319.1,"text":"到底我們這一批的進口多少錢?因為據聞它的金額是比我們自己健保的部分是兩倍到三倍所以這一次我們到底進了多少?那我們運用的金額有多少?請做說明"},{"start":13323.253,"end":13344.932,"text":"請說明跟委員報告那這一次經過那個FDA核准專案進口的量加上我們最後專案核定的健保核價大概影響金額大概在兩億多兩億多嗎那兩億多總共的數量是多少大概在400萬瓶左右400萬瓶那400萬瓶你足以應對嗎"},{"start":13347.505,"end":13369.717,"text":"當然因為這個是一部分另外一部分在請國內的廠商增產那個是另外一塊因為還是要讓國內的廠商有這個把他的產能拉高的機會部長你聽到了這個訊息那為什麼平白無故會要再緊急專案進口沒有辦法所以我們這2億多400萬瓶救急"},{"start":13373.779,"end":13402.219,"text":"價格是兩倍至三倍這個價格你想民眾聽到他們作何感想因為本席還是要繼續請問緊急狀況會不會成為常態化請教請說明會不會成為常態化你如果沒有福利中心你沒有一個完善的一個制度你會不會成為常態化一次就兩億多怎麼辦會不會常態化本席請教"},{"start":13403.218,"end":13429.646,"text":"我想每一個危機我們都一定要做教訓危機要做教訓所以我們不能刪除對,你的醫療財政你的穩健供應你病患的權益啊你不能讓洗身的不能洗啊當然當然當然當然所以它會不會常態化你說的必須要有制度要有方法那請教制度跟方法你怎麼做改善請做說明"},{"start":13431.721,"end":13446.348,"text":"如果有這次的經驗我們當然就會更加的預防性的,譬如說當然我不是經濟學專家當然是不是市佔率的問題但是有時候這是一種自然的,因為永豐這個藥廠,既我醫師"},{"start":13451.533,"end":13462.582,"text":"朋友的瞭解,他們服務的非常好,你要他送到哪裡,他就送到哪裡,方便,就很容易接,很方便,大家平穩很好政府控制不住,所以變成事實上有些關係,所以政府我們要負責,希望我們市民更早"},{"start":13472.791,"end":13491.432,"text":"我們要理解、觀察一下,另外就是... 回答,也不要隨便回答,因為這個是包括的我們的醫療財政穩定的一個公益跟病患的一個權益 這三項是最基本的,都不能有所減免"},{"start":13492.173,"end":13508.11,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我還是給你功課我相信你來自異界你也來自民意代表你很清楚但是我們要的是不要變為常態化要怎麼你所謂的當然當然要怎麼樣的方案出來"},{"start":13509.071,"end":13530.083,"text":"你去研擬那個方案出來好不好?因為本席最怕的就是變為常態化我這樣很恐怖的啊好不好?好不好?因為命就是一點都不能打折的健康不能一點醫療是一點都不能打折的啊那你多久方案可以告訴本席可以給我們你去研擬沒關係本席還是希望要有政策性的多久時間可以告訴我們你怎麼樣去調整"},{"start":13536.087,"end":13557.555,"text":"你告訴我們供應也很好什麼都很好除了這個狀況要多花了兩三億緊急調度國外400萬瓶三個禮拜好不好三個禮拜研議方案怎麼樣讓蘇伊可以恢復不要讓他緊急狀況成為常態化這太恐怖了好不好三個禮拜給我們方案要怎麼做"},{"start":13558.635,"end":13585.43,"text":"好部長這一次您辛苦了到這個WHA雖然是在外面但是本期看到你接受訪問的時候你接受訪問的時候那你也說了未來的挑戰恐怕會更嚴峻喔你是這麼說喔你在日內瓦的時候接受你所謂的更嚴峻到底是什麼回事你一講更嚴峻大家在國內以為說我們就沒機會了"},{"start":13587.691,"end":13609.991,"text":"怎麼回事呢?這是我根據我醫療團隊過去的戰役是這1、20年來我也代表醫界在參加世界對相關的會議裡面我們發現中國的策略從以前很硬現在變得很軟硬兼施他們也付出了很多的"},{"start":13611.84,"end":13612.801,"text":"所以我們應該正面來想即使這樣的槍"},{"start":13630.399,"end":13655.777,"text":"更加的嚴謹但是我們得到的友誼、得到的支持其實是更多的其實部長你談到這裡本席非常肯定你的就是說我覺得一個政府那你必須要將真實的事情告訴民眾這是本席對你的肯定而不是只有插支抹粉得不到答案 對不對所以就成如剛剛第一個議題一樣我希望要有政策"},{"start":13657.118,"end":13680.897,"text":"這個才是我們理性討論的精髓所以本期希望就是說在台灣的醫療非常好我們的健保也很有名那我們包括在防疫的過程當中我們也是全國上下一致不分藍綠白全部搭一起來所以我們現在以你的智慧除了你告訴我們越來越遠近以外你還有什麼方案"},{"start":13681.998,"end":13706.766,"text":"你還得到了那麼多的友誼你還有什麼方案告訴我們你這個議題也順便資料給我好嗎我們一起加油開個檢討會來把所有的以後會做得更積極的對所以也就是說你臺灣在國際上你要怎麼樣謀取更多的支持跟重視這個是我們有什麼籌碼請你把你研討就這一次"},{"start":13707.466,"end":13708.507,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員的發言那現在休息休息30分鐘後下午一點繼續開會"},{"start":13737.892,"end":13739.428,"text":"謝謝!"},{"start":16173.936,"end":16177.377,"text":"好現在繼續開會請劉建國委員發言有請邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":16199.11,"end":16222.012,"text":"委員好部長好恭喜部長凱旬歸國也賀喜部長榮任部長都跟建國委員學習謝謝了部長我想參加WHA是不恩朝野黨派加入絕對是全台灣2300萬人共同期盼的一件事情那未來你可能有4年任期甚至於更久"},{"start":16223.1,"end":16250.912,"text":"那怎麼樣的如何有雄心壯志有事先的規劃然後累積這8年客觀的經驗從你當這個醫師公共全聯會理事長還有這個委員還有世界這個醫師全聯會的這個理事累積這樣經驗的情況之下有什麼樣的一個計畫有什麼樣的一個雄心壯志有什麼樣的一個預期打造目標我們可以順利加入好 謝謝第一個我首先要"},{"start":16252.621,"end":16270.954,"text":"聲明的就是說我們雖然目標是在當進入WHO甚至WHO當Observer但是如果碰觸政治的壓力我們也不要灰心喪志我們還有很多事情可以來照顧國人的健康也很多事情我們可以來幫助世界的人民這些都不要放棄"},{"start":16271.875,"end":16287.624,"text":"我們目前所做的就是一步一步在努力這件事情而每一次的努力的成果就是一個關鍵一個小成功那等這個累積以後自然就有機會會水到其成這是我的理念第一個第二個"},{"start":16288.834,"end":16317.58,"text":"第二個我覺得我們當然不能說固守於過去的做法要結合更多的力量比如說我常常在講因為我們的醫衛團體臺灣的醫衛團體至少有100個這每100個都是非常強的跟國際有做連結這些未來怎麼樣來做強大的一個結合的力量今天的委員也有形容到說我們因為專家可能很多有的國家是如果他去的話會"},{"start":16319.18,"end":16332.247,"text":"大家尊敬他會有很大的力量這些我們也都要評估第三個我覺得培養更年輕的國際人才也是我們政府要做的責任我想大概"},{"start":16335.164,"end":16359.171,"text":"這幾個來努力但是我還是要跟國會美麗大家我們一定要團結然後每一個努力都是未來成功的關鍵每一個努力都是有豐收的果實而不是一個可能受到政治力量的一個目標在那邊目前好像還達不到但是其實我們的努力我們已經享受到豐收的成果謝謝"},{"start":16361.582,"end":16382.968,"text":"部長我就簡單讓你說明清楚但是從後面的這個人才的培訓坦白講樣成了也不是一朝一夕就可以完成對不對那我一直特別強調的主題說在這個未來的四年有可能更久嘛但是我們先講第一個階段就是未來這四年的時候要怎麼如何可以達標達到這個目標嘛那不過部長剛剛答覆我基本上"},{"start":16383.648,"end":16411.683,"text":"是沒有針對我的問題來做答覆但是鼓勵國人不要放棄我們一起努力跟所有的這個這個醫界跟所有的醫治團體大家共同一起來發聲連結到世界各地的比較這個尖端精英的醫療的這些人士來讓台灣的能見度可以更高讓台灣的這樣的衛生醫療的領域可以持續的往前去領先我覺得那當然也是"},{"start":16412.384,"end":16433.486,"text":"慢慢的去累積一點一滴的小小成果應該是誠如部長講的這樣的一個理念但是我還是希望有一個比較具體的我是不是在這邊可以具體建議部長你可以看到最近在臺北辦的沸沸揚揚的國際電腦展全世界科技的精英臺灣重要的科技龍頭"},{"start":16436.541,"end":16459.357,"text":"每天的新聞報不完幾乎臺灣就是一個全世界在AI在科技非常重要、重中之重的一個國家我們的能見度打開了我們讓全世界看到臺灣在這一塊的實力是這麼堅強我們也無需擔憂中共透過任何政治力量的管道去打壓我們"},{"start":16460.626,"end":16477.84,"text":"他們的醫療秩序非常的進步先進昨天我們又通過再生醫療雙簧等等等那AI未來絕對要跟醫療連結到一定的緊密的程度所以我才會特別希望部長你累積過去這麼多的經驗這麼多的職務應該"},{"start":16481.704,"end":16504.417,"text":"是不是有這個機會更有一個願景更有一個規劃也讓全世界的醫療重要的人士剛才陳女所講的舉足輕重的是可以時不時的來到我們台灣參加任何的一個論壇還是所謂的尖端醫療AI醫療的這樣的一個相關的一個國際的一個會議"},{"start":16507.759,"end":16528.901,"text":"我覺得這個樣子的情況之下或許也會讓世界衛生組織寡慕相看或許我們舉辦了相關的這些醫療公衛的論壇也會在功能上甚至超越過世界衛生組織所以我才想說部長有沒有這樣的雄心壯志再來我拜讀到賴總統的"},{"start":16531.091,"end":16555.758,"text":"當天就職的演說．也拜讀了行政院我們院長卓院長的施政報告我覺得打造一個AI的島嶼國家．打造一個科技進步的國家．打造一個創新就正如邱部長說今天島嶼相關委員所講的努力到80%一直沒有辦法再往上衝的時候那可能就是要有更有智慧的更創新的這樣的一個思維"},{"start":16556.522,"end":16577.626,"text":"所以我建立這樣一個創新的思維就要兼具具體的做法讓全世界的頂端的尖端的醫療的產業醫療的人才時不時的可以來聚集在臺灣這一個進步科技進步醫療進步的這個國家我們一起努力的為世界的衛生醫療為世界連結這個醫療跟科技結合"},{"start":16581.883,"end":16610.075,"text":"最緊密的這樣的一個最有機會的一個國家我們可以朝這個方向來做努力,部長可以嗎?非常好,委員的指示非常著見我覺得我們國家就是應該要往這方面努力那在醫療衛生方面其實我剛剛有跟委員報告過就是很多很多的團體其實都有請重要級正重要級的都是世界主席來的所以幾乎所有的專業團體的不管外科內科"},{"start":16611.275,"end":16627.024,"text":"加一科、副產科幾乎每年他們的主席世界主席都會到臺灣來演講的機會非常多另外衛福部本身在11月每年也都辦有全球的健康論壇幾乎把友好國家的"},{"start":16627.904,"end":16655.726,"text":"我今天這次去40幾場每一場都遞邀請函給部長那當然不一定大家會來那就是這個也是盛況都是蠻盛況的也展示我們臺灣在衛生的國力那至於是AI或相關這個顧方面的人才我覺得我們要集合起來對所以我我這特別尊教委員的指示這樣來做不要說指示我只是特別跟部長建議我們可以有立即性的具體的做法當然"},{"start":16656.186,"end":16656.546,"text":"今天有國際的電腦展在臺灣的臺北"},{"start":16673.327,"end":16693.273,"text":"明年是不是有一個國際的AI醫療展在我們邱部長的主政之下馬上來推動第一年第二年第三年我們會越見成熟就不怕任何打壓任何政治上的干擾的行為我覺得這給部長做最好的一個建議跟參考好不好這是一件事情第二件事情"},{"start":16694.213,"end":16709.481,"text":"就是你所講的人才的養成跟培育非常重要我請趙復師上來一下我最後的3分鐘拜託主席再給我把這事情講完那天女士來我特別跟她講社工能力社工能力的部署已經非常的嚴重未來的5年"},{"start":16709.701,"end":16730.026,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":16737.091,"end":16747.699,"text":"但實際上跟市長說明的落差值是非常大我甚至可以馬上提供雲林縣的區域醫院在幾年前就關了百分之三十以上只不過是沒有見報而已"},{"start":16748.9,"end":16766.991,"text":"只不過是不願意說出來而已當人才、護理能力這麼欠缺的情況之下如果我們沒有求新求變我們沒有像邱部長所講的有創新的思維創新的政策我跟你講你的人數還是會持續降下來因為我們面對到職場的環境"},{"start":16768.792,"end":16787.18,"text":"我們面對到整個待遇希望從夜班從現在日班從相關的這樣的一個期盼都必須要政府在匡列相關的預算來支持但是如果持續做這樣的處理的一個方式我覺得一成不變然後從預算面"},{"start":16787.76,"end":16810.59,"text":"去做這樣的解決你這個人力方還是一樣沒辦法解決你可以看我的圖表齁這個已經每況愈下114年63.44111年63.17113年63在100年的時候我要求助理要跟你們調相關資料你們竟然跟我講沒有那時候是跟幾位委員有共同提案改善護理環境提升護理待遇當時的衛生署編了10億"},{"start":16813.771,"end":16838.998,"text":"因為10億分散給這些區議院、地區議院、醫學中心結果拿去買制服辦運動會完全沒有用在護理人員身上隔年才再增加20億這幾年不要說夜班的加班會不要說未來的日班的相關的津貼這幾年投入護理界我們公部門編了多少預算市長你比我更清楚但是我絕對支持"},{"start":16840.185,"end":16868.569,"text":"但是投入這麼多的預算的情況之下讓護理人員的職業率持續下降你該當何罪你有什麼新的創新的方式就你部長所講的你要回應啊你要說明清楚啊好謝謝委員那整個現在臺灣的護理人力的問題是在於他留不住量上面是主要的問題是留不住那就是職場環境的改善是重要的"},{"start":16869.13,"end":16886.167,"text":"我們改善了10多年我們投入這麼多的預算還是在講市場環境要改善是那我們在去年在行政院已經有得到這個核定那有12項的計畫那不管是從人才的這個增加10%的培育"},{"start":16887.335,"end":16893.264,"text":"以及職場環境的改善跟薪資的改善有12項策略那這12項策略目前已經有40億在做一個這個經費已經得到這個支持跟也開始在運用了那目前我們還有三項計畫是中長程的就是"},{"start":16903.799,"end":16923.272,"text":"現在4月也提到行政院如果合併完之後我們也會預期效益就是增加10%嘛對不對預期效益嘛能力能力要提高到10%嘛對不對是不是這樣對量能可以提高到10%嘛你如果從現在的112也是63那可能未來可以增加到73嘛是不是這樣你的意思是這樣嘛"},{"start":16924.565,"end":16944.07,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":16948.695,"end":16972.924,"text":"我們未來我們在我們有把這個供需做了一些試算那2030年我們需要的大概需要增加最少5.5萬最少5.5萬2030年2030年現在是2024所以還有6年時間所以平均每年要增加1萬出嘛對不對這是預期要達到的效益跟目標是確定可以達標我們"},{"start":16975.275,"end":16986.983,"text":"積極努力積極努力那我們現在就要來檢視了嘛齁如果現在這些相關的計畫跟經費都到位了吧部分到位部分在爭取中"},{"start":16987.677,"end":16988.198,"text":"12項已經到位幾項嗎?"},{"start":17007.321,"end":17022.791,"text":"基本上全部都啟動了啦那經費的部分有兩項兩項已經到位嘛那其他的還有三項目前在爭取經費那有的不是直接由我們來公務預算的也開始比如說公職護理師的比例增加啦"},{"start":17023.451,"end":17051.981,"text":"或是這個三方互併比的標準的訂定跟推動。12項的這個這個指標這個這個這個這個政策基本上都啟動了嘛。對。對不對?對。好。阿所以預期到2031年可以增加護理人力進入到職場增加到5萬5千人嘛。是不是這樣?對。是。好。那我們明年就可以來檢視了喔。嗯。你的5萬5除以從2025開始嘛。對不對?齁。那等同就是一年要將近一萬嘛。沒有錯吧?"},{"start":17053.997,"end":17074.936,"text":"對,但是他的這個我們重點在於他每年有流失的就沒有進來跟流失的這個8000個人裡面我們希望每年能夠多增加這個5成我現在跟你講的我請教你的就是你增加的你不要再跟我講說你沒有扣掉流失的喔你不能跟我打呼這種模擬任何的事情喔"},{"start":17076.425,"end":17093.353,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":17094.012,"end":17094.513,"text":"接下來請洪森翰委員發言"},{"start":17124.89,"end":17126.02,"text":"請邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":17132.15,"end":17154.688,"text":"邱部長好今天是我第一次的向這個邱部長來質詢那因為我的時間不太多所以我就直接切入到重點了部長你過去其實也是醫師所以其實你應該很清楚瞭解我們這個第一線的醫護人員其實他常常是為了我們民眾的健康"},{"start":17155.749,"end":17181.958,"text":"那他的付出然後尤其是我們看到很多公立尤其是衛福部主管的部立醫院常常會有加班的情形應該很清楚對不對是部長我最近跟衛福部來調資料的時候發現有超過八成的部立醫院他們很多這些基層第一線人員他們的加班的時數都被吃掉了部長知不知道這個狀況"},{"start":17183.918,"end":17203.759,"text":"我必須要再去了解一下部長那我來跟你說明好不好我現在都用的都是衛福部的資料部長我們現在看到這些不利議員他們的猜情系統裡面都沒有辦法記錄這些加班的時數進而影響到他們的補休甚至加班費的權益我說的事情很簡單比方說我舉個例子"},{"start":17204.827,"end":17221.241,"text":"今天如果你因為臨床的業務加班了一個小時又50分鐘對不起因為這50分鐘不滿一個小時所以這50分鐘的加班餘數在醫院是沒有記錄的這就是我們的加班時數被吃掉的狀況剛剛劉建國委員質詢"},{"start":17225.384,"end":17248.968,"text":"議員．"},{"start":17249.813,"end":17250.093,"text":"這不是個案吶!"},{"start":17268.511,"end":17296.161,"text":"這是醫師還是護士這是護理師護理師嘛但是這些醫護在他們的猜情系統都遇到同樣的狀況啊部長我要跟你說這不是只有護理師啦在2023年也就是去年的8月29號我們的人事行政總署來推動一個計畫叫做輪班輪休人員納入加班餘宿並計事辦計畫大家看一下再往下"},{"start":17300.556,"end":17324.825,"text":"這個輪班輪休人員納入加班餘宿並記示範計畫告訴各部會應該來依法申請來辦理來協助你們大家的猜情系統裡面要把加班餘宿可以用一種大水庫的方式來並記部長但是我們看到現在我們追查到目前為止有幾家不利的醫療機構加入這個示範你知不知道"},{"start":17326.839,"end":17348.069,"text":"我想我們馬上檢討去了解而且馬上一定要按規定來處理部長現在只有5家我們的不利醫院加入這個事辦的計畫來確保我們公職醫護人員的權益啊剩下21家到目前為止這個計畫從去年8月開始公布只有這個"},{"start":17349.129,"end":17374.354,"text":"現在還有21家的醫院都還沒有加入這個加班餘宿的病劑功能在他們猜刑系統裡面部長有沒有了解這個問題?我想應該這個...部長我今天我的質詢我的想法很簡單叫做加班多少時間就記錄多少時間就能拿到多少加班的權益"},{"start":17375.194,"end":17403.704,"text":"部長 這個想法你覺得你同意嗎?我們的所有的醫療各機構應該都要按照規定來辦理嘛所以我剛才再說一次加班多少時間就可以記錄多少時間就可以拿到多少加班的報酬或者是補修的權益部長同不同意?同意啊你同意對不對可是我們現在明明下面有八成的不利醫院他都沒有跟上啊他還在吃這些基層醫護人員的加班時數啊"},{"start":17405.168,"end":17429.152,"text":"你只要沒有到滿一個小時對不起那都不計都不算都消失了這是現況不是個案了好我們馬上檢討部長我現在我想提兩個要求啦很簡單三個月內督促這21家還沒加入的不利醫院第一個加班時數要如實記錄猜情系統馬上增列這個加班餘數並記功能這應該沒問題吧這三個月內21家不利醫院應該沒問題吧"},{"start":17435.618,"end":17451.211,"text":"之前只有5家加入部長你現在的這個你現在遲疑的態度讓我會有一點懷疑你的決心阿我覺得這是最基本的事情阿我想基本的事情阿今天這麼簡單應該可以做的事情為什麼只有5家加入我是"},{"start":17452.993,"end":17476.55,"text":"市長知不知道為什麼?或者是衣服會?衣服會知不知道為什麼?是!可是現在剛剛市長也說要改善大家的勞動環境跟條件像這種吃掉人家加班時數的狀況這算是友善的勞動條件嗎?部長我覺得你要給一個更明確的決心該做到就做到"},{"start":17479.017,"end":17494.142,"text":"好,我們3個月內把它完成好了好,3個月內21家這個部立醫院跟療養院加班時數都可以如實記錄加入這病情功能第二件事情很重要現在是6月8月下個年度的總預算要送進來"},{"start":17495.382,"end":17516.352,"text":"我們要要求衛福部把加班費補修增補的人力的這些人事成本就像剛才說的把加班餘數並記以後能夠呈現的可能會增加一些人事成本都應該納入114年明年的年度預算裡面應該沒有問題吧這個一定要部長的話也沒辦法做是所以就這兩件事情部長三個月內完成可以嗎好我覺得我們要還給這些基層的醫護人員"},{"start":17518.713,"end":17519.213,"text":"拜託保護部長"},{"start":17548.134,"end":17559.264,"text":"好,謝謝洪森翰委員接下來請張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員不在接下來請鄭振淺委員、鄭振淺委員、鄭振淺委員不在接下來請張志倫委員、張志倫委員、張志倫委員不在接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":17576.341,"end":17591.294,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請邀請邱部長請邱部長委員好 部長好 部長換了位置"},{"start":17592.52,"end":17607.74,"text":"我們還是要探討一些我們長期大家一起關心的問題我講沒有記錯的話大概部長從當立委的時候就很常去參加WHA大概因為"},{"start":17610.143,"end":17637.788,"text":"我們大概每年都會雖然雖然我們沒有辦法參與會議可是我們每年都會藉由這個機會去現場跟一些國家做私底下的溝通也好然後提高臺灣公衛實力的能見度也好我們都會去部長你能不能跟國人說明一下就是說臺灣"},{"start":17640.199,"end":17652.591,"text":"沒有參加世界衛生大會對於台灣獲得國際公衛資訊上有沒有影響?當然有影響有影響啊有什麼影響?"},{"start":17656.894,"end":17678.987,"text":"因為我首先謝謝委員的一直支持特別是去年未還能夠到WHA去做考察其實也是楊委員促成的雖然你人在離島但是心在國際令人敬佩這必須要講是這個創造立法院歷史的"},{"start":17687.272,"end":17705.338,"text":"的原作者就是我們梁耀偉委員,非常感謝也創造了很多的成績那如果到底有沒有當然最重要就是資訊的落差那特別譬如說我們在很多技術以技術層面來講"},{"start":17707.585,"end":17708.866,"text":"中國的壓力讓我們在在很多科技的互動"},{"start":17736.892,"end":17763.195,"text":"那的確會受到影響那以整體來講比如說你如果是WHA會員你自然就是你是教室的學生你這個學校就一定給你什麼資料什麼就給你看你如果什麼也沒有這樣子所以資訊第一手的資訊一定是可能應該會有落差資訊是內容上的落差還是時效性的落差"},{"start":17764.485,"end":17778.006,"text":"就是說內容性跟實效性當然都有落差,內容也會有嗎?一定有啊,但為什麼拿不到他們的資料,我們都必須要從各種角度我們有沒有辦法從其他的管道拿到?"},{"start":17779.81,"end":17796.399,"text":"其實國際上還是有很多國家是很支持臺灣的啊?絕對可以因為公共衛生的主題其實重要的就是那些對嘛所以比如說他重視的不管是以前的任何TB或任何相關的課題"},{"start":17799.166,"end":17817.732,"text":"我們都非常掌握得很清楚其實就是說我自己的看法當然台灣我們作為世界的議員就是盡可能的參加各種國際組織參與國際會議"},{"start":17823.274,"end":17834.686,"text":"那我為什麼問這個題目呢?就是說因為幾乎每一年到這個時候台灣就會討論到能不能成為觀察員、能不能參與世衛大會"},{"start":17839.571,"end":17863.469,"text":"我是怕因為其實它也不是一個醫學的提升的會議它是公衛層面的東西我覺得我們有義務讓國人知道說雖然中國的打壓所以台灣沒有辦法進入這個會議可是我們"},{"start":17864.77,"end":17888.722,"text":"我們還是可以透過其他管道甚至於世衛大會要開會的題目其實大概在過去一年會有什麼樣子的重要提綱大家也都知道我們盡可能的不要讓國人誤以為說我們沒有去參加WHA"},{"start":17890.663,"end":17912.268,"text":"會讓台灣的公衛跟全球有落差甚至於以防疫、以COVID-19這幾年台灣其實在公衛體系的能力是強的我常常跟很多朋友講台灣假如不是防疫做得好"},{"start":17913.905,"end":17942.542,"text":"怎麼會經濟的成果這麼顯著所以我是希望部裡面可以就這一個部分跟國人做個清楚的說明不要讓國人以為說我們沒有去第一是不是醫學方面我們會有落差第二是不是會對台灣的公衛有很大的影響"},{"start":17944.003,"end":17966.568,"text":"其實我很清楚我的判斷是不會因為它不是醫學類的公衛體系的那公衛體系呢就像剛剛講的事前的提綱其實過去一年大家注重的哪一些題目大概我們也有掌握那我們縱使沒有參與參與討論沒有發表我們的經驗"},{"start":17972.976,"end":17992.833,"text":"可是事後我們還是有很多對台友好的國家會提供資料給我們我覺得這個是不是部裡面可以加強宣傳我覺得這個很重要因為這個幾乎每一年這樣子的今天這個題目大概每一年未完都會討論一次"},{"start":17995.515,"end":18014.291,"text":"我希望部長因為你從當民意代表到現在當政務官你都有參與我希望可以部長可以我完全同意梁委員的見解我們真的雖然的確我個人是認為沒有參加WHO、WHA"},{"start":18016.212,"end":18042.926,"text":"是一種尊嚴、人權的問題但是我們台灣的鬥志就好像COVID-19來的時候我當時當醫師公會理事長我有見你SARS的時候死掉不少醫護人員所以我就對全國的各醫師公會宣告說我們不能再發生任何一個醫護人員以及民眾有"},{"start":18043.966,"end":18047.928,"text":"臺灣人如果都愛這個臺灣然後貢獻所有的自己的專長那醫療人員也願意來把他的專業貢獻我覺得"},{"start":18070.501,"end":18096.166,"text":"我們永遠都是在領先世界的一位的水準部長的這段話呢就剛好說明了我們在過去疫情的期間公部門跟民間團體公司合力然後民眾的配合其實台灣的公衛應該是必須要我個人的看法是"},{"start":18099.403,"end":18110.138,"text":"市委大會我們沒有辦法參加我覺得這個真的就是部長講的這是主權的問題而且我也覺得這是"},{"start":18113.598,"end":18138.245,"text":"WHO忽略了健康權是基本人權不應該排除任何一個國家在外我今天其實還有一些問題包括護理人員因為我時間到了我就簡單跟部長講一個跟澎湖有關的就是我們有因為"},{"start":18141.727,"end":18161.16,"text":"護理人員、人力的欠缺,這個不只是澎湖湖,可是我覺得部立醫院的工職缺真的必須要開出來。這個我們也已經有跟人事總署溝通過了。希望部立醫院能夠掌握進度,加快時程。"},{"start":18165.023,"end":18174.27,"text":"接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在接下來請徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員不在接下來請陳盈委員發言"},{"start":18208.313,"end":18209.314,"text":"邀請邱部長"},{"start":18215.666,"end":18239.999,"text":"委員好部長好,恭喜你終於如願以償的站在對面我剛剛在下面偷偷幫您拍了一張照發現你站在那邊站在這兒比較有班好,那我想是這樣子第一個要請教的問題是因害防治法修法已經修訂通過了"},{"start":18241.961,"end":18246.901,"text":"您也是我們委員會當時啊也是我們委員會的委員那一直到"},{"start":18248.206,"end":18277.066,"text":"您就任部長其實在這整個推動的過程當中整個修法的過程已經歷經了三任的部長那我比較好奇的是說因為這部法我們衛環委員會是修訂的不夠好還是說條文有什麼自愛難行的地方因為過去這個部長擔任部分區立委的時候您也有提案嘛想聽一下你的看法有什麼自愛難行的地方嗎還是哪邊修不好"},{"start":18278.031,"end":18306.73,"text":"應該那個時候經過大家那麼詳細的討論應該不至於有自然性的辦法我想也應該是這樣所以我就要請教一下就是說請問開放加熱菸除了可以有效管理之外這個菸捐跟稅收預計一年大概是多少?"},{"start":18309.301,"end":18322.665,"text":"多少?一百億嗎?我請副署長回答講個數字而已,來兩百億那我另外請教說,我們大概可以挹注健保署多少?50%"},{"start":18326.711,"end":18326.731,"text":"蘇司長"},{"start":18356.871,"end":18358.151,"text":"目前就你們的了解,國內有沒有人在使用加熱菸?"},{"start":18381.444,"end":18397.158,"text":"國內有沒有人目前實質在使用加熱煙?這是一個非常簡單的問題。議法是不能使用,但是應該是有吧。因為部長不好意思回答,那我幫你講。那立法院有沒有人在抽?"},{"start":18401.311,"end":18420.885,"text":"我比較長期柯總在那裡,所以他沒有抽加熱菸,我要替他澄清,柯總你知道沒有抽加熱菸,他沒有,我們不能誤會他我沒有問你是誰,我只問你有沒有人而已,你不要講太清楚,免得日後預算會有問題"},{"start":18423.107,"end":18449.273,"text":"我也曾經親眼目睹在這個青島剛紹就有我不知道是哪一個黨團但是那個助理我不認識但我知道他是助理也是大剌剌的就在青島剛紹我們大院旁邊就這樣抽起來了一點都不會像我們還有些同事不好意思躲在別的地方抽這樣子那所以"},{"start":18451.738,"end":18457.541,"text":"根據本席上次的這個質詢我在質詢薛部長的時候就是國建署的假署長那表示就是說加熱菸"},{"start":18477.129,"end":18497.854,"text":"表示加熱菸的進口必須要做流行病學的研究當時薛部長表示說等這個研究做完他就死了現在已經目前審查一年多了到底就是說我們還要等多久加熱菸才會實質的通過"},{"start":18503.732,"end":18525.251,"text":"我們都希望大家可以好好的呼吸啦因為這一年多來我們已經若根據那個兩百億剛剛講兩百億嘛那我們已經短收了就短收了兩百億的稅金啦這不請副市長回答一下那個現在的審查狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":18527.574,"end":18545.691,"text":"我們現在從去年6月開始一個月會有兩次將審查的進度放在網站上那目前為止就是有12家的業者來申請那扣除一些未繳費或者是未補件的大概會有兩家目前是在審查中這樣子"},{"start":18546.087,"end":18567.294,"text":"對阿你還是沒有回答我的問題阿我不是問你審查狀況我問你什麼時候會實質可以通過我們就可以大家可以很合法的來使用這個加熱煙然後也會有稅收對就因為不是我督導只是說我知道他目前現在應該都很積極對阿那這樣的狀況大概要多久"},{"start":18568.514,"end":18595.532,"text":"還是還要再過幾個部長你預估因為其實依照我們的那個叫做什麼健康風險評估辦法有講到說他從申請日期是6個月內可以再延長一次就OK所以基本上一年內就要完成啦但是已經超過已經一年多不是嗎他扣除那個補件的期間對那所以部長讓你你他也是講了這麼多狀況那您評估大概可以預計什麼時候"},{"start":18597.506,"end":18619.701,"text":"可以讓大家合法的再抽加油菸,我們也可以有收受。所以就說我必須要去了解到他現在真正的狀況是怎麼樣。但是我覺得這個站在國家發展的立場人民的權益應該用最快的速度來進行。所以會在您任內嗎?希望是啊。那可以在今年嗎?應該是今年可以啦。"},{"start":18625.427,"end":18642.57,"text":"好,那我們就拭目以待喔,因為現在是6月嘛好,那7月也是今年,8月也是,12月也是,所以部長您大概覺得哪個月希望這些多多關心啦,多多支持這樣子好,那我就每次您來我就關心一下這樣子好不好好,謝謝"},{"start":18643.291,"end":18671.461,"text":"好 那個如果沒有開放還是很多人使用因為法令也沒有至愛難行之處所以經過這麼長的時間都沒有開放就讓我們修法的目的跟有效管理加熱煙就等於大家都流於空談嘛所以唯一可以解釋的理由就是你們內部的官員沒有按期程完成審查這個叫做行政怠惰"},{"start":18673.042,"end":18679.892,"text":"市場現在現況有大量加熱煙的流通卻收不到稅金這個就是賭值"},{"start":18681.377,"end":18706.068,"text":"很嚴重的所以您身為部長是不是應該好好去調查一下對於這個相關不適任的官員都要進行查處啊你沒有在就是比較積極一點可能下次來又換不一樣的部長的時候我再問他一樣問題他還是不能回答那部長加熱菸跟一般止菸他是不一樣他比較沒有那麼臭"},{"start":18707.068,"end":18731.173,"text":"你們沒有開放也不能這個取締跟管制所以如果說室內如果有人使用我相信除了我這個在場其他人不一定有人會發現那結果就是說你們讓更多的人就暴露在這種煙害之中而不自覺這個也是本席說要支持開放加熱煙為的是為了要"},{"start":18733.873,"end":18759.889,"text":"讓這個加熱菸可以更有效的被管理跟防治這個就是我的初衷跟目的那我想法律已經很清楚那我們要開放跟日本等其他國家一樣限制使用的地方徵收相關的這個菸捐跟稅金那如今就是說已經修法已經過了那如果你們裡面內部再有人抗拒不開放那放任這個民眾違法使用的話"},{"start":18762.551,"end":18778.13,"text":"這個然後又不取締所以這個其中的理由真的非常令人匪夷所思我真的打了非常多的問號那相關的這個官員實在是難辭其咎所以這個真的這件事真的需要被好好的調查需要好好的被懲處為什麼拖這麼久"},{"start":18780.313,"end":18802.669,"text":"那我們必須要這個今天我是因為我關心這個議題已經很多次了然後我是最討厭人家抽菸的人所以我認為這個抽菸這件事情確實需要好好的被管理然後放著200億的稅金不收卻滿街的人都在抽還在立法院大剌剌的抽這樣像話嗎"},{"start":18804.41,"end":18830.83,"text":"我每次看到有人抽我就覺得好多錢在我前面飛來飛去這些錢可以拿來救很多人來幫助很多人的所以喔部長你一定要好好的調查來維護我們國家的這個法治以及這個依法行政的精神你沒有要講幾句啊一定依法辦理而且禁訴辦理禁訴辦理要好好調查好好調查好謝謝"},{"start":18833.401,"end":18852.82,"text":"好,謝謝陳瑩委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在接下來請李燕秀委員、李燕秀委員、李燕秀委員不在接下來請林楚英委員、林楚英委員、林楚英委員不在接下來請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":18862.725,"end":18867.699,"text":"好,謝謝主席,各位委員各位官員,大家午安。好,謝謝,有請部長。請邱部長。"},{"start":18873.083,"end":18896.437,"text":"委員好部長好首次見面很開心很高興擔任我們的衛福部部長那也非常知道最近你才剛從國外回來那你率領的這個世衛行動組有跟這個江啟臣副院長然後率領這個我們不管不分黨派的立委有王振旭委員陳金輝委員跟林益君委員一起前往這個瑞士"},{"start":18897.338,"end":18921.172,"text":"的日內瓦為臺灣發聲先跟你說一聲辛苦了可是我相信今天還是有蠻多委員跟您分享到就是說在這個參加活動的途中當然這個我們希望說是大家要聚焦為了就是臺灣能加入WHA WHO來做一份努力可是我們可以看到這個我有顯示幾張的這個照片"},{"start":18921.872,"end":18931.144,"text":"當然我們知道說這個有一些民團也有參與在背後就指了這些的標語那我相信很多委員都會覺得很不解請問加部長這些標語有助於我們參加這個WHO或WHA嗎?"},{"start":18940.338,"end":18965.113,"text":"很感佩委員可以拿到這幾張漂亮的照片有一張最右邊那張照片你還蠻帥的背後就舉了這樣的標語所以其實我們在這個所有的場合我們真的非常注意到外交的禮節外交的互動以及在一種和諧尊重所以我們這次特別要民團不要去圍著"},{"start":18966.854,"end":18987.029,"text":"為了那個彈奪賽像去年吼,一直被逼問,但是今年還是有啦,但是但是還是就是有禮貌多了啦,我們覺得我們臺灣人雖然我們覺得受到委屈,但是我們還是要"},{"start":18988.436,"end":18989.056,"text":"我們當然有世衛團、立委"},{"start":19006.284,"end":19019.071,"text":"事導團聯合國促進會還有歐洲、美洲、北美來的團是很多所以老實講我今天也第一次看到後面有這個牌子"},{"start":19020.552,"end":19046.475,"text":"我第一次看到好謝謝部長那我相信您的想法是一樣就大家應該要聚焦在我們臺灣未來真的可以參加WHO跟WHA是然後就是說那當然我們你剛剛也特別講到你現場有拜託這個民團的部分就是說國內當然有些時候我們大家意見不一致可是對外我們就是一致對外像未來其實從106年以後大家都很辛苦"},{"start":19047.616,"end":19068.713,"text":"所以這邊感謝部長大家的想法是一致的那接下來我要請教就是說當然台灣這個要加入這個國際的這個組織的時候很多的東西我相信應該要跟國際的標準是一致的尤其我這邊常常來這個上次沒有見到部長我上次就有提到說全台灣這個癌症"},{"start":19070.855,"end":19093.85,"text":"前三名第一名現在已經變成是肺癌那肺癌的話新聞這邊也有指出這個會讓人家得到肺癌的最主要的原因是這個空氣汙染那我跟這個部長報告現在臺灣整體的感覺是西安的人口有往下降然後現在外食族也比較多所以現在目前來講奇怪怎麼會變成是這個"},{"start":19096.932,"end":19122.585,"text":"的肺癌因為空氣污染得到肺癌的人數最嚴重所以這邊我是不是可以請部長這邊這點是我非常重視的就是台灣在監測空氣品質的一個部分是不是沒有辦法跟這個全世界接軌我們可以看到左邊這張圖不管是我們最造成肺腺癌最嚴重的PM10跟PM2.5的部分台灣的這個量劑基準都比國際上的是它的國際上的低"},{"start":19124.256,"end":19141.582,"text":"都比國際上的高,高了將近兩倍左右所以這個部分我相信我一直在講這人民有知的權利尤其像台灣是八成火力發電先不論政府的能源政策是否有誤可是現在有八成火力發電尤其到晚上尤其今天下雨太陽能發電是零"},{"start":19142.702,"end":19168.269,"text":"所以晚上的部分可能空氣污染品質會更糟糕所以是不是拜託部長我們是不是要讓民眾有知的權利這部分是不是可以來調整一下跟國際接軌讓人民知道說我要出去運動的時候現在台灣的空氣品質到底是如何如果我可以選擇我不去運動或出門的時候戴一個口罩我相信這樣子癌症尤其肺腺癌的問題可以我相信希望可以有效的降低部長你認同我的看法嗎"},{"start":19168.809,"end":19189.714,"text":"我非常認同,而且當然會議的原因我們要再請教一下會議的狀況但是空氣污染這個部分看起來是我不曉得嘉義是變成最高的那下一張,其實這個AQI這個部分"},{"start":19195.646,"end":19209.805,"text":"我真的很感謝那個委員你可能跟我幾年前的年紀比較差不多我也注重我自己跟我小孩自己運動沒錯沒錯因為大家都暴露在這種環境下所以我也曾經說我常常在跑重症紀念堂"},{"start":19210.746,"end":19234.828,"text":"請你給我指示這個時候的我都叫我太太不要去跑那個時候如果太然後所以你的你剛剛執行的部分剛好是我講到你的心聲了多年來一直在跟衛福部提的我也覺得應該要這樣子好謝謝部長那是不是可以給我一個預計的時間表一起來讓這個全民這個有知的權利有沒有可能性因為他們說很難"},{"start":19236.715,"end":19253.677,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":19253.837,"end":19274.313,"text":"拜託環境部也跟他要求一下那我們那個衛福部再跟他共同努力那最後最後最後一個問題就是這個要幫這個基層的這個保姆來去做這個聲援我知道今天下午本來要開會可是我要先想先讓部長知道就是現行的準公共化保姆費合理嗎因為我"},{"start":19274.833,"end":19290.364,"text":"有遇到就是有民眾就是保姆他跟我講說他現在真的快要發瘋了因為就現在的這個轉公共化保姆在宅日間托育時間要10個小時可是你看臺北市跟新北市帶一個小孩兩歲以下的小孩"},{"start":19291.533,"end":19310.188,"text":"一個小孩他只能拿到費用只有17000塊兩個人的話如果帶兩個小孩只有34000塊那扣掉勞健保然後再扣掉他自己的水電費一個月他能拿到的薪水不到3萬塊他覺得他快要發瘋了所以我要拜託部長這個這樣的標準"},{"start":19313.704,"end":19334.852,"text":"這個連最低工資可能都不到所以我說拜託部長這個部分可不可以來幫全天下的保母來因為台灣現在也少子化如果沒有這些保母願意帶那我要拜託部長這個部分我希望是不是中央可以來幫忙也不要增加我們一些年輕的爸媽他們如果未來這個生下來的壓力所以我希望說這點我已經在這個質詢的時候講過很多次了是不是可以拜託部長來幫忙"},{"start":19336.617,"end":19361.384,"text":"現在的這樣嗎?是這樣子嗎?下午會再跟委員那邊做討論所以部長你是不是也覺得看起來有點讓你覺得吃驚我覺得這個就是要很平啦在民眾的負擔我們今天不是掃紙畫嗎?對啊你說這樣子而且現在掃紙畫別人說一個保姆他可能面對到兩個家庭給他的壓力他帶兩個他基本上就差不多"},{"start":19362.344,"end":19364.065,"text":"我完全了解我三個小孩都是保姆帶的"},{"start":19387.799,"end":19403.125,"text":"對啊第一個小孩被保母一直外交能力好常常抱出去各個地方逛人家家裡然後每一個人都給他糖果吃害他吃得很胖我就想要換保母這樣子"},{"start":19404.386,"end":19405.166,"text":"現在作以下決定,報告及詢答完畢。"},{"start":19428.019,"end":19441.073,"text":"委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午9點繼續開會"},{"start":19461.152,"end":19476.664,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"}]}},{"id":"15979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15979","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e558f108d180b0e1bad9f551ce5fa921f3be8d109af184be42a9c9aa0ff3563f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"「財政收支劃分法修正草案」第一次初步審查會議（事由：「財政收支劃分法修正草案」第一次初步審查會議）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-05T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:10:00+08:00","duration":5985,"影片長度":"01:39:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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各位大家早安請準備一報告初席人數報告委員會初席委員與主法定人數現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":2054.504,"end":2078.455,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案第一次初步審查會議 宣傳畢介紹現場王宏威王委員張祺凱張委員王委員王美惠王委員"},{"start":2083.531,"end":2109.782,"text":"剛剛還有吳秉瑞吳委員好 謝謝介紹財政部部長 莊翠雲 莊部長法制處代理處長 黃慧玲國庫署署長 陳柏澄負稅署署長 宋秀玲"},{"start":2112.91,"end":2112.97,"text":"主席"},{"start":2135.15,"end":2136.331,"text":"臺北市政府財政局局長胡曉蘭"},{"start":2168.444,"end":2192.606,"text":"新北市政府財政局局長陳榮貴臺原市政府財政局局長歐美環臺中市政府財政局局長游麗玲臺南市政府副秘書長殷世熙"},{"start":2196.332,"end":2219.44,"text":"財政稅務局專門委員陳家慶高雄市政府財政局局長陳永勝新竹縣政府財政局處長彭慧珠苗栗縣政府財政處副處長王淑欣"},{"start":2223.274,"end":2246.222,"text":"南投縣政府財政處處長李良珠張化縣政府財政處副處長蕭元廷雲林縣政府副縣長謝淑雅財政處副處長張志萌"},{"start":2250.609,"end":2252.831,"text":"介紹花蓮縣政府財政處處長劉台文"},{"start":2282.63,"end":2304.047,"text":"臺東縣政府財政及經濟發展處副處長 葉振鶴澎湖縣政府財政處處長 鄭家威金門縣政府代理秘書長 王登偉參議呂清福財政處處長 陳國廷"},{"start":2314.516,"end":2330.947,"text":"臨江縣財政稅務局局長陳瑞金基隆市政府秘書長方定安新竹市政府秘書長張志祥財政處科長楊子賢"},{"start":2341.67,"end":2358.713,"text":"嘉義市政府副市長 林瑞燕財政稅務局科長 張孟華介紹 與會立委李燕秀 李委員"},{"start":2363.885,"end":2386.024,"text":"那今天已成安排財政收支劃分法修正草案第一次初步審查會議那因為因應這個法有關二十二縣市所以我們看到各黨團包括柯總召包括洪孟凱包括民眾黨我們張祺凱也在現場還有"},{"start":2390.808,"end":2415.899,"text":"黃國昌黃先生他們大家都很關心這個問題所以我們就充分的發言讓大家多聆聽一下地方的需求既然是中央跟地方夥伴關係我們就是會全力來支持我想很多113個立委很多都從地方來自地方所以我們要關心地方支持地方所以今天的主角是22縣市與會代表"},{"start":2419.341,"end":2448.986,"text":"那我們現在請財政部部長要不要再說明一下聽大家的意見嗎好那我們就請地方開始那因為我們這一次二二縣市也歡迎副市長有來我們是不是請嘉義市政府副市長林瑞燕發言"},{"start":2451.513,"end":2452.294,"text":"各位媒體先進 大家早安 大家好"},{"start":2477.535,"end":2500.145,"text":"代表華民會市長到這邊來發言因為華民會市長到韓國去考察不然他本來是今天要過來的那有關於財政收支劃分法的分配有關於統籌款的分配其實它主要是要調劑地方的財政營需以及提升地方財政的自主能力還有均衡地方的發展"},{"start":2500.945,"end":2520.77,"text":"那因為長期以來整個經濟情勢的變更之後那在分配的部分已經產生了明顯的垂直不公就是中央跟地方還有水平的不公就是地方政府之間的失衡那造成縣市政府在財政的困窘"},{"start":2521.73,"end":2545.701,"text":"其實要談財政收支劃分法應該要把中央對地方的協助跟補助大家一起談就是有關於統籌款、一般性補助款還有計劃型補助的部分那計劃型補助的部分其實我想各縣市都一樣都有很多價位都需要中央的支持和鼓勵但是這一部分我們先把它放在旁邊"},{"start":2548.38,"end":2576.112,"text":"計劃型補助有問題所以說大家會回來來談統籌款的問題但是今天要談統籌款我們會建議說統籌款跟一般性補助款應該要一起講因為統籌款目前的補助狀況是把統籌款分配之後放到主計總處的一般性補助款來當基本財政收支來計算基本財政收支差短所以說要談的這個部分必須跟"},{"start":2577.369,"end":2577.99,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":2599.07,"end":2626.449,"text":"應該要提供各縣市政府平均分配這個部分因為每個縣市政府要做的事情幾乎都一樣只是多跟少這個應該要仿照公立彩券的分配方式先提供固定比例來做分配這個分配我們建議最少不低於20%另外就是有關於省轄市的部分我們會建議予以加權我想今天最"},{"start":2627.779,"end":2629.941,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整"},{"start":2655.069,"end":2655.509,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":2667.233,"end":2687.989,"text":"特別統籌的部分應該在年度結束之後全數再分配給各個地方再來一個很重要的點就是我們希望能夠重新來檢視支出跟收入中央請客的部分請中央買單這樣子的話可以減少地方上非常多的支出以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2695.949,"end":2703.979,"text":"謝謝嘉義市副市長林瑞燕接著請雲林縣政府副縣長也來了請副縣長謝淑雅"},{"start":2714.802,"end":2722.99,"text":"主席部長以及議會各位委員還有我們二十所有縣市夥伴那媒體先敬大家好今天因為我們縣長的話在議會不可承來所以包括我們的財長也沒有辦法過來那我這邊的話第一個先謝謝我們主席那就今天來舉行這樣子的一個"},{"start":2738.065,"end":2738.245,"text":"主席"},{"start":2761.038,"end":2761.239,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":2777.892,"end":2778.532,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":2797.924,"end":2822.676,"text":"有百分之多少呢?我們有將近三分之二是要變成是農地那我們要擔任這個全國糧倉的這個重責大任那大家想想看我剛剛一來的時候在那個立法院附近我還問我同仁說欸我們立法院這裡一百多少?一百多少?他說可能要三五百萬喔三五百萬那你知道我們雲林喔像我住那個村莊農地一分,一分多少?一百萬"},{"start":2826.513,"end":2826.833,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":2842.344,"end":2842.644,"text":"第二次初步審查會議．"},{"start":2862.659,"end":2863.019,"text":"第三次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":2884.76,"end":2909.514,"text":"當然對於雲林縣來講我們又配合了國家的重大經濟政策我們來承擔所有石化業的特別犧牲所以依照我們的財政收支劃分法三十五條之一的第二項要獲得合理的專款補助所以這個以上做一個報告我們一百一十一年我們雲林縣的繳稅是多少呢?七百二十一億"},{"start":2911.215,"end":2912.636,"text":"臺北市政府財政局局長胡曉蘭"},{"start":2941.545,"end":2944.427,"text":"補充介紹現場 林倩琦 林委員"},{"start":2959.389,"end":2969.381,"text":"財化法從88年修正至今﹐已經超過25年沒有修正本次立法院召開審查會議﹐臺北市政府非常樂見各界秉持開放的態度﹐專業地來討論這個議題25年間歷經地方改制﹐"},{"start":2975.848,"end":2984.817,"text":"直轄市從二都變成六都﹐地方的市權增加﹐經費的需求也隨同增加﹐但是﹐中央統籌分配稅款的來源﹐依舊是所得稅10%﹐婚務稅10%﹐營業稅40%﹐"},{"start":2993.827,"end":3008.708,"text":"縣協財源已經無法滿足地方發展的需要為了根本解決地方財政問題 中央應該檢討修正財化法把柄做大 擴大釋出給地方的財源 以減輕地方財政的壓力"},{"start":3010.05,"end":3035.648,"text":"臺北市政府具體提出三點建議首先是營業稅百分之百回歸為地方財源其中百分之五十按各地的營利事業營業額分配另外的百分之五十納入統籌分配營業稅在財化法八十八年修法前為省市稅不是中央財源本次修法建議百分之百回歸為地方財源"},{"start":3037.659,"end":3064.622,"text":"另外營業稅在88年修法前執霞市可以自留50%所以建議其中50%按各地營利事業營業分配我們的理由是成本負擔的原因以及與地方共享招商的成果我們都知道商業較興盛的地方就業人口較多發展快速地方同時必須負擔較高的交通、醫療、教育等成本施政的成本較高"},{"start":3065.823,"end":3082.659,"text":"現行制度中也未能將地方政府努力創造財政收入、招商就業的成果和貢獻與所獲得的統籌分配稅款之間有明確的正向連結導致現行的制度欠缺財政激勵效果"},{"start":3083.98,"end":3099.995,"text":"為了強化地方政府財政努力誘因機制：積極創造財政收入開源的動力這個盈利事業營業額最能反映地方的經濟發展所以我們具體建議營業稅的50%按各地方盈利事業營業額分配"},{"start":3102.418,"end":3122.411,"text":"第二項的具體建議是必須保障地方社福教育基本設施的一般性補助款我們知道這個現行的一般性補助是支應地方社福教育及基本設施影響民眾權益重大所以不得少於所得稅總收入10%與貨物稅總收入10%的合計數第三項具體建議是不能中央請客地方買單"},{"start":3130.004,"end":3134.006,"text":"臺北市政府以上三點的具體建議,敬請各委員支持"},{"start":3152.424,"end":3159.295,"text":"歡迎全省原來是客,我們就先請高雄市政府財政局局長陳永勝"},{"start":3179.406,"end":3207.152,"text":"謝謝昭緯點名我想也感謝部長在座的各位委員在座的22縣市的地方的首長以及所有的一些媒體以及漁業先進大家早安大家好我想謝謝貴會安排這樣的一個審查會議我想整個這樣的一個財劃法的修正我想要重視的是水平跟垂直的一個公平我想22縣市今天的未來也代表說整個水平公平的一個部分尤其的重要"},{"start":3207.432,"end":3207.732,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":3223.988,"end":3225.109,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":3247.574,"end":3272.661,"text":"我想任何單一的一個指標都沒辦法代表整個22縣市的一個指標以目前來講,譬如我舉例以目前來講,我們整個目前2050年,整個要邁向我們整個國家的一個淨領的一個城市各項的一些淨領的指標我想從不管我們各地方縣市政府他不同的區域的一個考量譬如從黃碳、綠碳、藍碳"},{"start":3274.599,"end":3275.92,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":3302.669,"end":3304.39,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整"},{"start":3321.466,"end":3337.37,"text":"所以整體而言我們高雄市政府我們認為即時廣益大家討論絕對是好事但是我想我們要提出的就是說要重視每項的一個指標才讓我們22縣市每個都會共好以上謝謝謝謝陳永勝陳局長接著請"},{"start":3347.847,"end":3354.473,"text":"台南市局長先請新北市政府財政局局長陳榮貴"},{"start":3364.76,"end":3389.57,"text":"主席：各位委員：財政部中央部長：以及署長：還有我們各縣市級處長：各位夥伴大家好我們都知道財劃二法是規範中央跟地方的財政的垂直分配法規還有各地方政府間水平分配的基本法規對地方的財源自主是至關重要"},{"start":3390.33,"end":3409.539,"text":"而這麼重要的法規：剛剛很多級處長都有講的：從88年修正：到現在：經過這麼多：也經過了以前只有北高兩個縣市：目前已經有六都：但財政配套卻沒有跟進到位：所以我們才會一直呼籲要修改財劃法"},{"start":3410.68,"end":3430.783,"text":"在修法前 中央跟地方總收入比重 60 比 40% 88年修法後 從 113年來看是 75 比 25%我們從這裡就可以看到 京省後 中央從地方都拿走了全國總收入的 15%造成中央與地方收入垂直失衡 比京省前更嚴重"},{"start":3431.984,"end":3450.14,"text":"現在我們希望22縣市都有共識﹐大家先求有再求好﹐把精神厚中央都拿走的15%還給地方﹐讓地方有足夠的財源來做建設﹐真正解決地方的財政問題﹐還有報宅中央說財劃法修法厚﹐近10年中央有撥補給﹐"},{"start":3450.981,"end":3452.102,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":3475.265,"end":3498.78,"text":"所增加的依法應分配地方的錢並不是中央額外都給的我們如果以此作為推遲修法的理由其實並不合理至於中央說還錢給地方恐影響國防外交社會福利重大建設推動依憲法107條108條規定國防外交跨省市建設本來就是中央應辦理的事項"},{"start":3499.7,"end":3527.629,"text":"過去的十大建設中央也是在原本分配到60%收入內辦理所以只要中央願意調整預算執行的訊息本來就不會有對國防外交重大建設產生影響作為一個負責任的政府我們應該要嚴守財政紀律由中央撿起袖子做給各地方政府看以每年編列預算時前面檢討各項施政的訊息將國家安全、教育文化"},{"start":3528.069,"end":3529.83,"text":"我跟主席報告我剛有跟彰化縣政府借時間可以給我嗎"},{"start":3553.32,"end":3554.701,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":3576.536,"end":3577.837,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整"},{"start":3602.148,"end":3623.604,"text":"最後中央所說明記共識當然很必要而多拿的收入還給地方政府就是地方最大的共識中央應秉持人民至上優先解決對社會有益 朝野共識議題同時落實憲法人人平等及地方自治精神前提下並以簡化花衣公事分配"},{"start":3624.324,"end":3641.935,"text":"提出修正案讓地方政府有足夠的財政資源推動公共服務讓居住不同縣市人民都享有公平資源獲得政府提供服務及照顧而不是說對地方分配還沒有共識而將責任推給地方 以上報告好 謝謝很感謝 願意照顧一些離島偏鄉"},{"start":3654.588,"end":3668.729,"text":"就是希望中央多拿一些過去的15%的部分那這個精神很好齁那這樣子既然要照顧李導那我們就是不是請林江縣財政稅務局的局長陳穗金"},{"start":3683.278,"end":3707.39,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員 連江縣在這裡簡短表示連江縣為在離島中的離島分佈四鄉五島那本縣呢自主的財力不足自籌款不到百分之八應該說是屬於現在五級財力之下我所希望的就是希望各委員財政部以及各縣市能給我們小小的關愛跟支持"},{"start":3709.057,"end":3727.397,"text":"依照財政發分法第八條第四項規定我提的是燕九歲的部分燕九歲應該以他的總收入18%按人口比例分配給臺灣各縣市那2%依照人口分配給金門縣及連江兩縣"},{"start":3730.185,"end":3755.778,"text":"那依照目前分配的比例一百一十二年在金門縣燕九歲就分配到七億五千多萬那反觀連江縣燕九歲只分配到七千萬那金門縣呢占分配數的百分之九十二點四三那連江縣只占到百分之八點五七那原因說明如下我們希望齁在八十八年的守財劃法的時候"},{"start":3757.159,"end":3757.84,"text":"二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":3775.231,"end":3775.832,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":3793.544,"end":3809.549,"text":"所以除了前天我們談到的統籌分配款希望最少能夠加到五億我也希望在菸酒稅方面能夠做適度的考量修正以金馬兩線收的來以人口來分配以上謝謝謝謝連江的陳瑞金陳局長謝謝那接下來我們請"},{"start":3822.52,"end":3826.037,"text":"台南市政府副秘書長殷士熙"},{"start":3835.451,"end":3857.388,"text":"主席、各位委員、部長以及我們各地方政府的代表以及媒體先進大家好因為市長也在議會當中代表黃市長來做市長的一個表態市長感謝各位委員對於整個財政劃分法的一個修正要將某個比例下放給地方當然是樂觀其成"},{"start":3859.149,"end":3860.75,"text":"財政分法修正草案"},{"start":3885.057,"end":3885.277,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":3905.749,"end":3905.869,"text":"財政劇力"},{"start":3923.78,"end":3924.22,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整會議"},{"start":3951.309,"end":3951.69,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":3976.67,"end":3978.071,"text":"桃園市財政局局長 歐美環"},{"start":4012.265,"end":4025.417,"text":"大會主席羅昭偉各位委員我們的長官還有各位媒體先進朋友大家好桃園在這邊表示一下目前國稅與地方稅的劃分國稅佔了總收入的89%地方稅還不到11%各縣市政府的自有財源是偏低的"},{"start":4035.345,"end":4035.965,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":4063.891,"end":4064.512,"text":"一般性補助排行第17名"},{"start":4081.415,"end":4097.189,"text":"等各縣市政府得到共識之後會進入修法的程序但是我們知道這麼長久以來各縣市都有它各有利的指標例如桃園市的重要指標就是工業產值還有我們的財政努力但是分配的指標要各縣市有共識幾乎是不可求的我們已經不再期待希望不要因為它而延誤了財政收支劃分法的修法"},{"start":4105.657,"end":4105.957,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":4128.893,"end":4152.921,"text":"分配的結果是跟現行的統籌加上一般性補助各縣市都是會增加的我們認為它是確有它的可行性也會讓各縣市接受度是比較高的以上我們是支持著國民黨提出的版本主要是要讓中央把餅做大給地方確保地方有足夠的財源修法才能夠落實執行我們再來談談各縣市的分配方式來減輕地方政府的財力負擔"},{"start":4158.463,"end":4163.345,"text":"提升地方的財政自主,並且期待加速圓滿完成修法。"},{"start":4184.197,"end":4203.27,"text":"主席：各位委員：部長：以及各位夥伴們媒體先進們大家好依據行政院主計總署歷年各級政府淨收支概況表裏面有提到88年的今省前中央收入比率是60.1%支出比率是58%收支比率上數相當111年收入比率是72.6%支出比率是60.2%"},{"start":4213.937,"end":4228.696,"text":"收支比率落差有12.4%顯見中央跟地方的收支劃分結構失衡所以使得地方財政捉襟見拙各項施政以及建設難以推展以目前來講"},{"start":4229.757,"end":4247.514,"text":"財政收支劃分法提出來的修正草案有十七案中裏面有十三案都是希望能夠擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模然後來釋出這些財源其實大家的共同點就是希望能夠擴大分配稅款的規模"},{"start":4251.678,"end":4278.422,"text":"至於分配的部分﹐分配的比例來講的話﹐因為如果說地方政府競相提出﹐各自有力的分配比例以及指標權重﹐那實屬零和競爭﹐然後修法的共識﹐所以我們認為﹐台中市認為說﹐中央擴大釋出財源﹐將中央統籌分配稅款這塊餅做大﹐並維持既有的分配方式﹐來讓各個地方政府的貨配額都大幅的提高﹐"},{"start":4278.962,"end":4300.769,"text":"使能夠有效的解決地方財政困境並能夠來加速建設以上報告好謝謝謝謝游麗玲游局長接著請宜蘭縣政府秘書長吳志宏"},{"start":4313.235,"end":4328.494,"text":"主席、各位委員、我們財政部莊部長還有我們22縣市的與會代表現場的媒體記者、女士先生大家早安、大家好那因為林志邁縣長現在在議會所以說只派本人來出席代表發言"},{"start":4329.551,"end":4347.847,"text":"那宜蘭縣好山好水但是卻因財政窘迫而沒有好的建設發展那在地理上大家都把宜蘭歸為東部縣市但是花東地區發展條例跟花東地區永續發展基金給予東部縣市補助的時候宜蘭卻不算在內"},{"start":4349.008,"end":4359.617,"text":"那宜蘭也離首都圈台北很近那北北基桃一日生活圈的建設經費挹注的時候宜蘭也不屬於北部縣市所以又被排除在外"},{"start":4360.56,"end":4380.957,"text":"那目前宜蘭縣每年分配到的統籌分配稅款還不足以支應我們基準的財政短差大概差了差不多將近30億那宜蘭縣最近幾年財政體質雖稍有改善不過但是韌性方面有待加強尤其一些地方的交通建設比如說鐵路高架"},{"start":4381.557,"end":4404.975,"text":"依然聯絡到羅東聯絡到等相關的交通建設都還不宜再遲延了所以說我們急需相關的裁員來配合所以依然先贊成趕快迅速的修正財政收支劃分法因為已經談了25年了那我們也支持立法院共識最高的版本"},{"start":4405.765,"end":4423.743,"text":"那來提升我們財政自主跟區域平衡發展不論是垂直或水平的分配方式很明確那如果有一些保底的設計比如說一般性補助跟統籌分配稅款不少於修正施行前的一年的預算編列數"},{"start":4424.824,"end":4440.999,"text":"那這個通過後可以馬上來實施所以我們這邊也期待趕快迅速來修正財政收支劃分法讓它通過支持立法院共識最高的版本以上謝謝宜蘭縣政府吳志宏秘書長"},{"start":4445.885,"end":4456.864,"text":"接著因為李導他們坐飛機很辛苦我們是照顧一下李導來聽聽他們的心聲請金門縣政府代理秘書長王登偉"},{"start":4469.29,"end":4493.747,"text":"召委各位委員：各位長官：各位與會先進大家好金門財政急需中央的支持九十一年實施菸酒稅法到現在金門財政收入已經短少了兩百多億迄今都還沒有依法彌補另外金門還有很多不合理的負擔譬如本島省倒是由中央負責但金門蓋一個一百億的大橋縣府卻要負擔百分之五十"},{"start":4494.628,"end":4495.248,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正草案"},{"start":4514.818,"end":4540.126,"text":"今年我們也不得不停辦23項總計102億的重大工程如果要橫平區域發展金門每年最少需要增加90億元稅款我們比較支持立院的共識版本好 謝謝好 謝謝金門的代理秘書長王登偉接著請基隆市政府秘書長方定安"},{"start":4556.414,"end":4563.93,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有各位長官各位我們地方的夥伴們 大家早安"},{"start":4565.302,"end":4591.263,"text":"那今天我們針對基隆的部分來做一個報告首先本市的財政狀況自籌款的收入大約是25%統籌款的收入分配大約25%補助收入在50%那在廢除商感建設費後本市的財源仰賴中央的程度非常非常的大其中補助收入"},{"start":4591.823,"end":4614.615,"text":"更將近達50%但是目前補助收入分配的公式設計複雜並沒有適當的列入地方財政努力的因素另外現行需由地方向中央爭取競爭機制不明各縣市容易誤解市場不公平的一個競爭"},{"start":4616.741,"end":4642.694,"text":"所以我們對於這個未來能夠得到的這些相關的補助收入也不明確對於我們下個年度所要施政的方向也就沒有辦法更明確的掌握建設經費的來源所以為了提升財政的自主性以及公平性本市建議擴大統籌分配款"},{"start":4644.474,"end":4672.496,"text":"分配稅款規模為財劃法優先的修法方向透過修正財劃法分配比率充實地方建設進而提高財政的自主權也是本市急需面臨的議題本市未來面臨重大的建設基隆捷運因此基隆市除支持擴大統籌分配稅款規模修法方向外"},{"start":4674.534,"end":4691.524,"text":"更朝能夠優先審查通過那最後我們經過審視我們支持國民黨的版本以上謝謝謝謝方廷安方秘書長接著請新竹市政府秘書長張志祥"},{"start":4710.021,"end":4725.797,"text":"主席、各位委員、部長我們各位財政夥伴以及各位媒體先進大家早安今天是我們新竹市兩位因公殉職的弟兄的功績所以由我代表來出席今天的會議"},{"start":4727.859,"end":4749.762,"text":"我們有提書面報告,也請各位可以參閱有關於財政收支劃分法的修正本是建議在部裡面希望能夠達到均衡地區發展的這個目標之外我們希望除了擴大地方政府的財源劃一直轄市跟縣市的分配基礎之外"},{"start":4750.242,"end":4769.222,"text":"有一個非常重要的關鍵是拜託一定要合理考量地方的財政努力地方的稅收貢獻新竹市因為新竹的竹科竹科所在我們的戶籍人數只有45萬但是我們經常的流動人口超過60萬"},{"start":4771.284,"end":4800.262,"text":"新竹市竹科裡面正式就業的員工也已經超過17萬這樣的公共建設的量能我們實在是真的是超出的需求超出我們新竹市可以的負荷所以在各項教育、交通、環保、治安以及消防等這些園區外溢的成本通通要由新竹市自己來負擔尤其近年因為人口的暴增各縣市人口在減少當然新竹市人口是來增加的"},{"start":4801.122,"end":4816.7,"text":"在興建校舍跟交通改善上這幾個面向實在是迫在眉睫所以北府今年積極處理教育跟交通等相關民生議題所需的經費真的非常非常龐大不是我們市府的財政所能負擔的"},{"start":4817.891,"end":4831.623,"text":"在這裡有一個數字想跟各位委員：跟主席：以及各位先進來做一個報告現行的財政收支劃分法的制度上其實沒有充分的考慮到稅收的貢獻新竹市112年度上繳國稅2889億"},{"start":4837.208,"end":4853.372,"text":"我們平均每個市民上繳63萬元全國第一但是配回的統籌分配稅款及一般性補助款合起來只有100億相當於每一個配回率只有3.5%全國最低"},{"start":4853.872,"end":4853.892,"text":"委員："},{"start":4872.807,"end":4872.967,"text":"謝謝張志祥張秘書長"},{"start":4903.069,"end":4907.484,"text":"接著我們離島左飛起來的很遠的還有澎湖縣的處長鄭家威"},{"start":4917.51,"end":4942.12,"text":"親愛的主席 親愛的各位委員 部長 各位長官還有我們各縣市的夥伴們 大家早安 大家好我想彭吳縣在這裡要由衷的感謝主席因為財劃法的一個修正 我們聽到樓梯響那麼多年今天終於看到一線曙光那我想彭吳縣 我們珍惜這次曙光我們希望議題能夠收攏聚焦 能有最後的結果"},{"start":4942.5,"end":4942.84,"text":"第二次初步審查會議"},{"start":4962.318,"end":4962.878,"text":"蔡奕瑜 蔡委員"},{"start":4987.152,"end":4992.46,"text":"也是來自地方的,所以我們請嘉義縣財政稅務局局長,蕭俊明"},{"start":5005.889,"end":5024.36,"text":"財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財政夥伴、媒體先生、女士、大家早財務部長、財"},{"start":5025.22,"end":5046.361,"text":"修正的部分我們縣有提出三個訴求這個部分我們第一個部分是若市縣市需要幫忙因為我們老的人口也是最多的然後整個比例也很高那償要經費的話也逐年在成長那這個部分已經超乎我們可以負擔的部分那另外的部分就是從剛剛余寧縣縣副縣長"},{"start":5049.204,"end":5076.426,"text":"所講的農業縣市我們需要特別照顧因為國土計畫有實施對農業縣市是一個很很大的損失而且我們目前議會在開議中也針對國土計畫的部分一直在大家一直在抗議這個部分那所以我們希望說這部分有特別的考量那還有另外一個部分我們嘉義縣正在正在轉型起飛由農業縣變成現在目前有一點有一點未來會發展成農工科技大縣的部分那所以說很多基礎的建設"},{"start":5077.947,"end":5078.087,"text":"財政能力"},{"start":5090.452,"end":5090.772,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議"},{"start":5116.349,"end":5127.448,"text":"謝謝江海縣蕭俊明蕭局長接著請之前是受災嚴重地震花蓮縣政府財政處處長劉台文"},{"start":5137.681,"end":5159.341,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位同仁、各位"},{"start":5160.169,"end":5183.928,"text":"我想在這邊各位報告因為大家前面的前輩已經講了很多了我也不再贅述我是想說我們在後單班的縣市其實等待太久了那我想我們也只有一個原則希望如同其實很多的機會大家在討論財劃法的時候財政部一切的保證只會多不會少我想這個原則能夠確立的話"},{"start":5186.03,"end":5186.17,"text":"新竹縣"},{"start":5212.325,"end":5224.605,"text":"財政處處長彭慧珠因為時間關係,我們是不是再延長十分鐘沒有意見,確定"},{"start":5227.714,"end":5253.062,"text":"主席部長還有各位委員還有各位同伴還有媒體朋友們大家好新竹縣代表那因為我們想出國考察所以只派我來代表參加我想首先先從一些數據來說明一下整個童收分配稅款財劃法的一些重要的地方財源不平衡的一些狀況所以從稅率的部分來看"},{"start":5254.571,"end":5281.737,"text":"我們一百一三年度的稅率算三百四十五億那其中呢﹐屬於中央款的部分﹐就有兩百四十三億也就是將近七成﹐都是仰賴中央的包括統促分配稅款有六十二億一般性補助款是三點七八億然後計劃性補助款一百零七億那也就是說﹐即便我們新竹縣﹐非常積極努力在徵收稅我們這幾年稅收都收得非常的好我們土增稅呈現一個﹐"},{"start":5283.497,"end":5284.038,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整"},{"start":5299.657,"end":5301.179,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5314.82,"end":5315.341,"text":"第二次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整"},{"start":5335.837,"end":5357.666,"text":"必須一直不斷的建效然後建效就要很多的教育支出我們的教育支出目前已經到153億已經佔我們總支出315.07億的48.65%也就是說我們光是教育支出就佔我們總支出的將近五成我們這個需求非常的大我們自己無力承擔那我們希望說"},{"start":5359.31,"end":5383.912,"text":"中央能夠普設高中：或者說至少提供給我們補助因為事實上我們現在高中也是嚴重的不足我們都要靠自己來建校那這個就是造成我們非常大的一負擔所以我們希望在財化法修正的時候能夠納入幾個因素考量一個就是學歷人口一個就是財政努力事實上我們新竹縣的財政是非常努力而狀況非常好的"},{"start":5387.82,"end":5408.235,"text":"統籌分配稅款希望考量到一般性補助款因為新竹縣的統籌分配稅款一直在各縣算是幾乎倒數第一或倒數第二的我們都是靠著一般性補助款去做一個補充所以我們希望說在修財劃法的同時也把一般性補助款能夠納入考量以上是我們的說明 謝謝"},{"start":5410.083,"end":5415.914,"text":"好 謝謝苗栗縣王淑欣副處長接著請南投縣財政處處長李良珠"},{"start":5433.464,"end":5455.981,"text":"主席 各位委員 部長 還有各位先進 還有各位媒體先進 大家好那大家都知道我們南投縣是全國土地範圍第二大的但是即便有這麼大的土地的話 我們有95%是山坡的範圍所以可利用的土地實在是非常的有限"},{"start":5456.721,"end":5468.695,"text":"再加上未來國土計劃法實施以後那我們更是雪上加霜所以長期以來我們的稅收真的是不豐那我們的建設經費都是嚴重的平滑那是我會覺得我們的南投縣民真的很純樸很可愛"},{"start":5475.983,"end":5477.204,"text":"第一次初步審查會議：完整會議：完整"},{"start":5501.095,"end":5528.956,"text":"但是事實上我們南投縣的縣民所收到的回饋真的是非常的有限所以在這裡我要拜託中央能夠重視南投在關內磨身不易的困境希望中央能夠給我們南投縣一個公平合理的待遇那南投縣在這裡以下有提出四個建議"},{"start":5530.117,"end":5532.961,"text":"我們建議擴大統籌分配稅款的來源簡單講就是首得稅從10%提撥率提高到25%"},{"start":5545.487,"end":5561.791,"text":"建議匯除分配比例建議採直轄市縣市政府統一分配公式針對財政收支差短的基本建設需求指標建議土地面積從35%提高至50%在財政努力的權重部分建議增加農民移牧的產值"},{"start":5573.433,"end":5573.994,"text":"以上報告"},{"start":5596.531,"end":5603.378,"text":"財政收支劃分法修正對苗栗縣政府非常重要苗栗縣政府能夠擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模"},{"start":5617.233,"end":5618.434,"text":"苗栗縣副組長王淑欣"},{"start":5647.267,"end":5651.395,"text":"接著請臺東縣副處長葉振鶴最後還有一點時間彰化請準備"},{"start":5665.266,"end":5693.074,"text":"主席羅昭偉財政部長部長大家都辛苦了那以上次台東的報告我從資料看出來在2010年的時候財政部提出來修法是四處財源982億那時候是五都現在是六都了所以我建議是至少不能低於這個額度之下來做一個財源的一個擴大那第二個呢"},{"start":5693.709,"end":5719.426,"text":"是希望能夠堅固區域的一個平衡因為剛剛講那麼多其實都是在講對自己有利的那財政部在112年的時候是有調查過我把它總歸成兩個一個是財政指標一個是基本建設的需求事實上在做水平的分配參考這兩個指標把大家的一個意見納進去應該是可以達成第三個就是說希望說在"},{"start":5720.346,"end":5720.606,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5748.93,"end":5759.076,"text":"謝謝臺東縣葉振鶴副處長在與會大概最後一位發言請彰化縣政府蕭元廷副處長"},{"start":5767.112,"end":5777.837,"text":"財政收支劃分法從民國88年修訂以後：到現在已經有20年沒有修正：隨著我們社會經濟跟環境的變遷：已經不符合地方財政的需求：也不符合條紀地方財政營需：跟均勻區域發展的立法目的"},{"start":5794.864,"end":5807.903,"text":"那,造成目前中央極淺以及平者越貧,富者越富的現象這種狀況對於我們農業縣市更加的明顯加深了各級跟同級政府之間垂直跟水平的不公平"},{"start":5812.503,"end":5825.131,"text":"懇請本次會議儘速通過財政收支劃分法的修正以落實中央與地方之間財政資源分配的合理化並且提升地方財政自主性"},{"start":5826.612,"end":5844.384,"text":"所以本府簡單建議三點第一點 擴大中央投從分配的規模第二點 並同考量一般性補助款不低於修法之前的財源保障才能夠真正落實地方的財政跟自主性"},{"start":5845.345,"end":5863.297,"text":"第三點因為彰化縣極力配合中央的綠能政策綠能的設置對於民眾跟漁民的生活影響甚大對於綠能在彰化縣的回饋卻是很有限所以在此建請能夠修訂綠能專法將這些相關綠能產業的回饋回饋給地方以上"},{"start":5873.996,"end":5893.529,"text":"謝謝彰化肖元廷肖副處長那與會大概每一位都發言了吧那我們是不是熱烈的掌聲也謝謝我們莊部長因為莊部長仔細聆聽之外大家的欠缺他一直點頭"},{"start":5895.1,"end":5921.185,"text":"就是也認同因為都是好夥伴的關係那也希望部長能從其所願有獎大家的困難我們都盡量與你協助那因為時間快到了因為散會時間一屆本次初步審查會議開會到此介紹我們現場郭國文、郭昭緯也在現場"},{"start":5923.22,"end":5949.565,"text":"他是來自臺南的,剛剛也都有講了那本次會議一時入授權由本席核定後確定請問各位委員無異議?沒有異議,我們就通過那早上的這個九點的會議,我們到此就宣布上會接下來還有一場公聽會,歡迎大家有興趣的也可以來聆聽謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153662","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c984f744328b45c8210a6cabf0dc0d1a8b73f1f9ccee7aa016b7439805f15628b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:35:24 - 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Tahovecahe委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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持續進行嘛那如果按照原先的一個規劃是在年底就要開始招商那部長這部分在招商的整個的時程以及你們的信心度現在是如何的"},{"start":475.843,"end":498.506,"text":"現在進行中已經開始在規劃那馬上在這個年底就要招商嘛要開招商說明會要開招商說明會嘛那我們希望說這一塊可以加速招商是阿剛也要去說說還是延續啦就是包括現在黃仁勳所說的他希望在台灣有設置這一個研發的一個基地嘛"},{"start":499.367,"end":520.766,"text":"這個研發基地,我想事實上嘉義黃仁勳會不會考慮嘉義我們不知道,但是有一個人他會考慮嘉義,有一個人,我補充我不是說你,你這裡太大,梁建厚,梁建厚是我們嘉義族旗人,所以他過去"},{"start":521.647,"end":539.159,"text":"我們這個梁先生過去真的有考慮在嘉義要投資要設廠那在當時我就我們翁章良縣長給我的資訊在當時他要考慮在嘉義要設廠但是他們卻對於嘉義的工業區的土地是不足的"},{"start":540.08,"end":568.564,"text":"所以以那順座最豪氣的投資沒有成型所以表示說我們嘉義勒因為如果以整個現在整個AI產業是要半導體產業的一個布局從高雄台南甚至未來在嘉義那嘉義台積電已經有現階段就有兩廠的COAS的一個封裝廠那未來還會有所謂材料跟設備的一個產業的一個園區裡面出來所以我們嘉義勒事實上就整個AI產業的布局咱嘉義是整個"},{"start":569.304,"end":569.504,"text":"：蔡易餘"},{"start":587.785,"end":588.145,"text":"蔡易餘委員"}]}},{"id":"153661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c980ea897ad1f9db37f84a12a82c262ca103f1f9ccee7aa016bb53d9e6741251f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"13:45:55 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Can Help的關鍵。","部長，我們目前協助多少友邦、友好國家協助建置「健康資訊管理（HIS）系統」？（巴拉圭、聖克里斯多福、索馬利蘭等國）","部長，台灣身為資訊科技及醫療大國，在對外援助上，是不是可以主動與更多有相關需求的友邦或是友好國家討論、協助建置一個適合他們使用的健康資訊管理系統？如此一來協助我們的產業打世界盃，二來也可以創造更多故事，也凸顯台灣實質互不隸屬，讓更多國家願意主動在WHA的場合幫台灣講話。","二、多邊醫療合作","甚至，除了與友邦或友好國家的雙邊合作之外，「多邊合作」也是同樣重要的國際參與機會。近期韓國的「國際協力事業團（Korean International Cooperation Agency，簡稱KOICA）」與美國疾管中心（US CDC）合作，在迦納啟動「全球衛生安全議程計晝（Global HealthSecurity Agenda，簡稱GHSA）」。","我想，台灣與日本、韓國同屬第一島鏈國家，我們與上述東亞鄰近國家在國際援助上也有許多重疊的國家，是不是未來有機會在各地與他們協力，無論從GCTF架構或是其他機制建立多邊的合作機制，在增進他國人民福祉的同時，也深化台灣與周遭國家間彼此之間的外交關係？","三、建立公民國際援助機制","部長，我們每年在政府開發援助上面的經費有沒有符合於聯合國設定占國民所得0.7%標準嗎？（2023年只占0.04%）","我想台灣身為全球第22大經濟體，在過去經濟成長時，受到很多國家幫忙，現在有能力回饋，也應該積極透過援助展現台灣在國際社會的責任。","部長，在你們送來的「我國投入政府開發援助之情形與推進計晝」報告裡，外交部現在除了鼓勵私部門參與外交部計畫及援外工作，亦會研議將私部門經費納入援外統計，擴大統計我國援外經費來源。","我在這邊有兩個建議：","1.納入公民社會的力量","我們台灣人有樂善好施的天性。過去從南亞海嘯、汶川地震、311震災、海地震災、土耳其震災，到COVID─19疫情期間的醫材捐助，乃至於俄烏戰爭中對烏克蘭的捐助，我們的公民社會出錢也出力，是十分具有能量的。若是能建置一個整合性的平台，讓國人可以定期捐錢到平台，並由政府作為外國急難救助專款專用的資金來源，不僅能讓國人有更具體而可信賴的捐助管道，也可以擴大援外經費的來源，更能讓世界更易於看見我們的援外實踐。","2.改善援外成果展示","部長請看，這是韓國「政府開發援助」官網的統計資料頁面，當中將歷年的援外金額與國民所得占比，以及最新一期依據地區、國家、所得階層等面向來進行的援外資金使用分析，點進去也都有詳細的原始資料，讓人可以清楚知道，經費是被用在援助哪些國家的哪些方面。除此之外他們也製作了地圖式的資訊圖表，方便使用者依照國家查找資訊，還建置了兒少專屬的頁面，引導下一代認識什麼叫做「政府開發援助」。","但台灣相關的成果通常要在預算書或報告書的數字裡面爬梳，非常不利於政策溝通。","在這個資訊爆炸的時代，如果沒有適度的傳播，許多事情真的很難「有感」，如果能先擴增援外預算來源，參考韓國的作法，在援外計晝的執行進度與成果上多用點心思，從小地方開始就帶著溝通的善意，做出好的視覺化呈現，一定可以更有效地讓民眾理解且進一步想要參與。","我在這邊希望部長、外交部以及ICDF的同仁，可以就以上提出的幾點多加考慮並付諸實踐，將我國社會的援外力量匯集在一起，讓「Taiwan Can Help，and Taiwan is helping」不只是口號，更能夠真正被世界各國感受到。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，星期四上午9點繼續開會。","休息（13時55分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.91159375,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.349718750000001,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.25596875,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.25534375,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.95534375,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.47784375,"end":83.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.52846875,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.03034375,"end":89.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.94534375,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.47659375,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.53971875,"end":92.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.84346875,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.42409375000001,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.71034375,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.40596875000001,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.19034375000001,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.52346875,"end":116.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.76721875000001,"end":132.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.47846875000002,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.60409375,"end":150.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.31534375,"end":164.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.36159375,"end":152.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.54534375,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.30471875,"end":166.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.03034375000001,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.77784375000002,"end":219.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.47346875000002,"end":231.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.74159375000002,"end":268.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.18721875,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.50159375000004,"end":313.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.93971875,"end":318.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.93471875,"end":321.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.45346875,"end":324.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.37721875,"end":327.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.62534375,"end":330.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.28721875,"end":333.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.19846875,"end":332.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.95346875,"end":339.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.43346875000003,"end":343.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.75784375,"end":371.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.32221875000005,"end":350.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.09846875,"end":352.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.96534375000005,"end":367.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.59784375000004,"end":369.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.62721875,"end":369.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.14596875,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.97596875000005,"end":379.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.66784375000003,"end":379.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.68471875,"end":381.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.73534375,"end":379.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.87846875,"end":391.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.23659375,"end":388.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.17659375000005,"end":395.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.19721875000005,"end":398.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.45846875,"end":397.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.97284375000004,"end":402.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.05721875,"end":399.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.84159375,"end":402.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.37721875000005,"end":405.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.16596875000005,"end":435.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.62096875000003,"end":453.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.37346875000003,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.9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保姆帶的"},{"start":532.973,"end":548.312,"text":"對啊第一個小孩被保母一直外交能力好常常抱出去各個地方逛人家家裡然後每一個人都給他糖果吃害他吃得很胖我就想要換保母這樣子"},{"start":550.075,"end":567.522,"text":"謝謝部長,我相信你今天講的我們都蠻有共識的,所以我相信一定這件事情我們非常重視,非常重視。拜託部長幫我們追蹤一下,好不好?一定追蹤,一定追蹤。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝張智倫委員的發言。本日會議詢答全部結束,委員陳冠廷所提出。"}]}},{"id":"153659","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153659","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98471634c999da835684a12a82c262ca10b5dc6a9f8e8436d678b37549b5781d025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:34:55 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13:45:39","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T13:34:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T13:45:39+08:00","duration":644,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1025,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時35分）謝謝召委。請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["陳委員瑩：部長好！恭喜你終於如願以償的站在對面，我剛剛在下面偷偷幫您拍了一張照，發現你站在那裡比站在這裡更「有範」。"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思！"],["陳委員瑩：第一個要請教的問題是菸害防制法已經修訂通過了，您當時也是我們委員會的委員，一直到您就任部長，其實這整個推動修法的過程已經歷經了三任部長，我比較好奇的是這部法我們衛環委員會是修訂得不夠好，還是條文有什麼窒礙難行的地方？因為過去部長擔任不分區立委的時候，您也有提案，想聽一下您的看法，有什麼窒礙難行的地方嗎？還是哪邊修不好？"],["邱部長泰源：那個時候經過大家那麼詳盡的討論，應該不至於有窒礙難行的地方。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想也應該是這樣，所以我就要請教一下，請問開放加熱菸除了可以有效管理之外，這個菸捐及稅收預計一年大概是多少？"],["邱部長泰源：我請副署長來說明。"],["陳委員瑩：好，講個數字而已。"],["魏副署長璽倫：200億。"],["陳委員瑩：200億。那我另外請教大概可以挹注我們健保署多少？"],["邱部長泰源：請石署長說明。"],["石署長崇良：委員好！我們現在一年菸捐有一半分配給健保，菸捐總金額每年不一樣，大概在260到280左右，有50%分配給健保做安全準備金及弱勢的健保費補助，所以是一半……"],["陳委員瑩：所以這樣是多少錢？"],["石署長崇良：大概130億左右。"],["陳委員瑩：130億會到你那邊去嘛！"],["石署長崇良：對、對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以去年整整一年你都沒有收到，對不對？我們112年就修法通過啦！"],["石署長崇良：沒有，我講的是菸捐，一直都有……"],["陳委員瑩：菸捐。"],["石署長崇良：一直都有，只是加熱菸的部分可以再多增……"],["陳委員瑩：對，那一塊大概多少？"],["石署長崇良：現在還沒。"],["陳委員瑩：我們修法通過，你都還沒有收到，對不對？"],["石署長崇良：對、對，還沒、還沒。"],["陳委員瑩：好，就你們的瞭解，目前國內有沒有人在使用加熱菸？國內有沒有人目前實質在使用加熱菸？這是一個非常簡單的問題，Yes or No？"],["邱部長泰源：依法是不能使用，但是應該是有吧！"],["陳委員瑩：因為部長不好意思回答，我幫你講，那立法院有沒有人在抽？"],["邱部長泰源：我比較常去柯總召那裡，他好像都是煙霧……"],["陳委員瑩：他沒有抽加熱菸，我要替他澄清，柯總召沒有抽加熱菸……"],["邱部長泰源：對、對，他是煙霧的。"],["陳委員瑩：他沒有，我們不能誤會他。"],["邱部長泰源：應該是有委員在抽吧！"],["陳委員瑩：我沒有問你是誰，我只問你有沒有人而已，你不要講太清楚，免得日後預算會有問題。","我也曾經親眼目睹，我不曉得是哪一個黨團的助理，那個助理我不認識，但我知道他是助理，也是大剌剌的就在青島崗哨、我們大院旁邊這樣抽起來，一點都不會像我們有些同事還會不好意思躲在別的地方抽。","後面兩位可以回座，謝謝。現在大家知道這個菸捐不少。","根據本席上次質詢薛部長的時候，國健署的「賈署長」表示加熱菸的進口必須要做流行病學的研究。當時薛部長表示，等這個研究做完他就死了，他這樣講。現在已經審查一年多了，到底我們還要等多久，加熱菸才會實質的通過？我們都希望大家可以好好的呼吸。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝……"],["陳委員瑩：如果根據剛剛講的200億，我們已經短收了200億的稅金啊！"],["邱部長泰源：這是不是請副署長回答一下？現在的審查狀況是怎麼樣。"],["魏副署長璽倫：跟委員報告，我們從去年6月開始，一個月會有兩次將審查的進度放在網站上，目前為止有12家的業者來申請，扣除一些未繳費或者是未補件的，大概有2家目前是在審查中。"],["陳委員瑩：你還是沒有回答我的問題，我不是問你審查狀況，我問你什麼時候會實質通過，大家就可以很合法的來使用加熱菸，也會有稅收。"],["魏副署長璽倫：抱歉，因為這不是我們督導，只是我知道他目前現在應該都很積極在辦理。"],["陳委員瑩：對，這樣的狀況大概要多久？還是你預估還要再過幾個部長？"],["魏副署長璽倫：因為其實依照我們的健康風險評估辦法有講到，從申請日起六個月內可以再延長一次六個月，所以基本上一年內要完成。"],["陳委員瑩：這個我們都知道，但是已經一年多，不是嗎？我們修法都通過了。"],["魏副署長璽倫：它扣除補件的期間。"],["陳委員瑩：所以部長，他講了這麼多狀況，您評估大概預計什麼時候可以讓大家合法地抽加熱菸，我們也可以有稅收？"],["邱部長泰源：說句老實話，我必須要去瞭解到它現在真正的狀況是怎麼樣，但是我覺得站在國家發展的立場、人民的權益，應該用最快的速度來進行。"],["陳委員瑩：所以會在您任內嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：希望是。"],["陳委員瑩：可以在今年嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：應該是今年可以。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我們就拭目以待，因為現在是6月，7月也是今年，8月也是，12月也是，所以部長您大概覺得哪一個月……"],["邱部長泰源：也希望各界多多關心、多多支持。"],["陳委員瑩：好，每次您來，我就關心一下，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：如果沒有開放，還是很多人使用，因為法令也沒有窒礙難行之處，所以經過這麼長的時間都沒有開放，就讓我們修法的目的及有效管理加熱菸等於都流於空談，唯一可以解釋的理由就是你們內部的官員沒有按期程完成審查，這個叫作行政怠惰，市場的現況是有大量加熱菸的流通，卻收不到稅金，這個就是瀆職，很嚴重的！所以您身為部長，是不是應該好好去調查一下，對於相關不適任的官員都要進行查處？你沒有積極一點，可能下次來又換不一樣的部長的時候，我再問他一樣的問題，他還是不能回答。","部長，加熱菸跟一般紙菸是不一樣的，它比較沒有那麼臭，你們沒有開放，也不能取締及管制，所以如果室內有人使用，我相信除了我，在場其他人不一定會發現，結果你們就讓更多的人暴露在這種菸害之中而不自覺。本席說要支持開放加熱菸，是為了讓加熱菸可以更有效地被管理及防制，這個就是我的初衷及目的。","我想法律已經很清楚，我們要開放，跟日本等其他國家一樣，限制使用的地方、徵收相關的菸捐及稅金。如今修法已經過了，如果你們裡面內部再有人抗拒、不開放，放任民眾違法使用，然後又不取締，所以其中的理由真的令人非常匪夷所思，我真的打了非常多的問號，相關的官員實在是難辭其咎，所以這件事真的需要被好好地調查、需要好好地懲處，為什麼拖這麼久？","我關心這個議題已經很多次了，我又是最討厭人家抽菸的人，所以我認為抽菸這件事情確實需要好好地被管理。然後放著200億的稅金不收，卻滿街的人都在抽，還在立法院大剌剌地抽，這樣像話嗎？我每次看到有人抽，我就覺得好多錢在我前面飛來飛去，這些錢可以拿來救很多人、幫助很多人的，所以部長你一定要好好地調查，來維護我們國家的法制，以及依法行政的精神。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員瑩：你不要講幾句嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定依法辦理，而且儘速辦理。"],["陳委員瑩：儘速辦理，要好好調查，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好好調查。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來請李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員、李彥秀委員不在。","接下來請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","接下來請張智倫委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.906593750000003,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.46659375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.192218750000002,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.136593750000003,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.26721875,"end":34.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.540343750000005,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.72596875,"end":35.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.94096875,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.970343750000005,"end":41.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.627843750000004,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.74096875,"end":52.039718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.001593750000005,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.89471875,"end":77.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.47034375,"end":82.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.57159375,"end":77.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.54971875000001,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.30846875,"end":90.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.22784375,"end":90.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.51471875,"end":90.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.53159375,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.63284375,"end":90.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.64971875,"end":90.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.85221875,"end":111.84471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.40909375000001,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.12284375,"end":115.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.92846875000001,"end":116.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.56971875,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.46409375,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.74221875,"end":119.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.77596875,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.63221875,"end":127.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.44971875000002,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.51284375,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130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330.098,"text":"我們都希望大家可以好好的呼吸啦因為這一年多了我們已經若根據那個200億剛剛講200億嘛那我們已經短收了就短收了200億的稅金啦這不請護士長回答一下那個現在的審查狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":332.418,"end":350.531,"text":"我們現在從去年6月開始一個月會有兩次將審查的進度放在網站上那目前為止就是有12家的業者來申請那扣除一些未繳費或者是未補件的大概會有兩家目前是在審查中這樣子"},{"start":350.934,"end":372.14,"text":"對阿你還是沒有回答我的問題阿我不是問你審查狀況我問你什麼時候會實質可以通過我們就可以大家可以很很合法的來使用這個加熱菸然後也會有稅收對就因為不是我督導只是說我知道他目前現在應該都很積極對阿那這樣的狀況大概要多久"},{"start":373.36,"end":400.379,"text":"還是還要再過幾個部長?您預估?因為其實依照我們的那個叫做什麼健康風險評估辦法有講到說他從申請日期是6個月內可以再延長一次就OK所以基本上一年內就要完成啦但是已經超過已經一年多不是嗎?他扣除那個補件的期間對那所以部長讓你你他也是講了這麼多狀況那您評估大概可以預計什麼時候"},{"start":402.352,"end":429.688,"text":"可以讓大家合法的再抽加油菸,我們也可以有稅收?我必須要去了解到他現在真正的狀況是怎麼樣但是我覺得這個站在國家發展的立場人民的權益應該用最快的速度來進行所以會在您任內嗎?希望是那可以在今年嗎?應該是今年可以啦"},{"start":430.273,"end":447.293,"text":"好,那我們就拭目以待喔,因為現在是6月嘛,那7月也是今年,8月也是,12月也是,所以部長您大概覺得哪個月?希望這些多多關心啦,多多支持這樣子。好,那我就每次您來我就關心一下這樣子好不好?好,謝謝,謝謝。"},{"start":448.134,"end":476.567,"text":"好 那個如果沒有開放還是很多人使用因為法令也沒有至愛難行之處所以經過這麼長的時間都沒有開放就讓我們修法的目的跟有效管理加熱煙就等於大家都流於空談嘛所以唯一可以解釋的理由就是你們內部的官員沒有按期程完成審查這個叫做行政怠惰啦"},{"start":477.347,"end":484.748,"text":"那市場現在有這個現況的有大量加熱煙的流通卻收不到稅金這個就是賭值"},{"start":486.206,"end":510.894,"text":"很嚴重的所以您身為部長是不是應該好好去調查一下對於這個相關不適任的官員都要進行查處啊你沒有在就是比較積極一點可能下次來又換不一樣的部長的時候我再問他一樣問題他還是不能回答那部長加熱菸跟一般止菸他是不一樣他比較沒有那麼臭"},{"start":511.914,"end":536.04,"text":"你們沒有開放也不能這個取締跟管制所以如果說室內如果有人使用我相信除了我這個在場其他人不一定有人會發現那結果就是說你們讓更多的人就暴露在這種煙害之中而不自覺這個也是本席說要支持開放加熱煙為的是為了要"},{"start":538.72,"end":564.732,"text":"讓這個加熱菸可以更有效的被管理跟防治這個就是我的初衷跟目的那我想法律已經很清楚那我們要開放跟日本等其他國家一樣限制使用的地方徵收相關的這個菸捐跟稅金那如今就是說已經修法已經過了那如果你們裡面內部再有人抗拒不開放那放任這個民眾違法使用的話"},{"start":567.393,"end":582.959,"text":"這個然後又不取締所以這個其中的理由真的非常令人匪夷所思我真的打了非常多的問號那相關的這個官員實在是難辭其咎所以這個真的這件事真的需要被好好的調查需要好好的被懲處為什麼拖這麼久"},{"start":585.16,"end":607.521,"text":"那我們必須要這個今天我是因為我關心這個議題已經很多次了然後我是最討厭人家抽菸的人所以我認為這個抽菸這件事情確實需要好好的被管理然後放著200億的稅金不收卻滿街的人都在抽還在立法院大剌剌的抽這樣像話嗎"},{"start":609.242,"end":634.355,"text":"我每次看到有人抽我就覺得好多錢在我前面飛來飛去這些錢可以拿來救很多人來幫助很多人的所以喔部長你一定要好好的調查來維護我們國家的這個法治以及這個依法行政的精神你沒有要講幾句啊一定依法辦理而且禁訴辦理禁訴辦理要好好調查好謝謝"},{"start":637.948,"end":642.29,"text":"好謝謝陳瑩委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員"}]}},{"id":"153658","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153658","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98d100adf5bf31360184a12a82c262ca10b5dc6a9f8e8436d68618b4638536ef0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:24:25 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常常跟很多朋友講台灣假如不是防疫做得好"},{"start":348.376,"end":377.01,"text":"怎麼會經濟的成果這麼顯著所以我是希望部裡面可以就這一個部分跟國人做個清楚的說明不要讓國人以為說我們沒有去第一是不是醫學方面我們會有落差第二是不是會對台灣的公衛有很大的影響"},{"start":378.474,"end":401.039,"text":"其實我很清楚我的判斷是不會因為它不是醫學類的公衛體系的那公衛體系呢就像剛剛講的事前的提綱其實過去一年大家注重的哪一些題目大概我們也有掌握那我們縱使沒有參與討論沒有發表我們的經驗"},{"start":407.444,"end":427.301,"text":"可是事後我們還是有很多對台友好的國家會提供資料給我們我覺得這個是不是部裡面可以加強宣傳我覺得這個很重要因為這個幾乎每一年這樣子的今天這個題目大概每一年未完都會討論一次"},{"start":430.003,"end":448.764,"text":"我希望部長因為你從當民意代表到現在當政務官你都有參與我希望可以部長可以我完全同意楊委員的見解我們真的雖然的確我個人是真的沒有參加WHA、WHA"},{"start":450.686,"end":477.397,"text":"是一種尊嚴、人權的問題但是我們台灣的鬥志就好像COVID-19來的時候我當時當醫師公會理事長我有見你SARS的時候死掉不少醫護人員所以我就對全國的各醫師公會宣告說我們不能再發生任何一個醫護人員以及民眾有"},{"start":478.437,"end":482.399,"text":"臺灣人如果都愛這個臺灣然後貢獻所有的自己的專長那醫療人員也願意來把他的專業貢獻我覺得"},{"start":504.989,"end":530.634,"text":"我們永遠都是在領先世界的一位的水準部長的這段話呢就剛好說明了我們在過去疫情的期間公部門跟民間團體公司合力然後民眾的配合其實台灣的公衛應該是必須要我個人的看法是"},{"start":533.873,"end":544.119,"text":"市委大會我們沒有辦法參加我覺得這個真的就是部長講的這是主權的問題而且我也覺得這是"},{"start":548.089,"end":573.894,"text":"WHA忽略了健康權是基本人權不應該排除任何一個國家在外我今天其實還有一些問題包括護理人員因為我時間到了我就簡單跟部長講一個跟澎湖有關的就是我們有因為"},{"start":576.195,"end":596.692,"text":"護理人員人力的欠缺這個不只是澎湖可是呢因為我覺得部立醫院部立醫院的工職缺真的必須要開出來這個我們也已經跟也已經有跟人事總署溝通過了希望部立醫院能夠掌握進度加快施程把"},{"start":599.494,"end":603.536,"text":"接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在"}]}},{"id":"153657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153657","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98a90f09aca4164072a6cabf0dc0d1a8b7b5dc6a9f8e8436d6b210e5aacf32087b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:32:37 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慢慢請部長來 請郭部長"},{"start":25.657,"end":50.146,"text":"部長好委員好部長昨天賴總統去computex那他說了幾個重點第一個就是屬於台灣自己的資料中心第二個是建制超級電腦來供產官學使用那第三個就是持續培養人才讓台灣成為人工智慧島那這三個都跟經濟部有關聯那請問經濟部要如何來落實人工智慧島的部分"},{"start":52.809,"end":69.469,"text":"這個如何落實這個人工智慧我想我們會利用我們台灣這個AI的優勢也就是說我們台灣生產這個AI的晶片台灣也是生產大量的這個AI的伺服器所以未來在AI的應用"},{"start":71.462,"end":71.682,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":98.371,"end":104.718,"text":"原來總統說要請企業做的部分還有說要讓臺灣一百多萬家中小企業人工智慧化"},{"start":105.489,"end":127.271,"text":"那之前經濟部有輔導臺灣的中小企業數位化那從數位化才有辦法人工智慧化嘛如果你沒有數位化的話那可能比較的困難那花了大概10多年但是我看到很多雙小企業在這個數位化的部分可能還未增完善那現在總統有說出了中小企業人工智慧化的政策的這個方針"},{"start":129.694,"end":152.893,"text":"請問經濟部要怎麼樣能夠去輔導尚未數位化的這些中小企業來變成AI化這一部分因為我們昨天才收到這個總統的這樣具體的指示所以我們會在未來的這很快的日子裡面來檢討那就像這個委員指教的這個沒有數位化的部分我要怎麼樣子來引導他"},{"start":153.814,"end":153.934,"text":"主席"},{"start":163.932,"end":189.983,"text":"謝謝部長我想從基礎做起我為什麼講這個數位化開始才有辦法要AI化我記得在求學的階段我們有一個同事他後來去美國的白宮跟國安會他第一份工作就是數位化去寫信給美國白宮或者是總統的這些書信那為什麼要數位化首先就是過去只是把文字存檔而已他沒有辦法去分析恐怖攻擊或者是裡面含威脅相關資訊的數位"},{"start":191.784,"end":192.045,"text":"昨天我們也"},{"start":208.327,"end":231.097,"text":"談到媒體有很多在訪問有關於這個可能在潛伏在我國相關的基礎設施特別是有關於電力的供應的這部分我想今天很多幾位立法委員都已經有特別提到關於電力的這個supply的部分供應其實我對於常態信發電量的問題我沒有特別去擔心我比較擔心是有"},{"start":232.017,"end":232.217,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":253.444,"end":277.813,"text":"我講在治安或者是實際的這個安全的方面呢經濟部都有一些規範存在那我們也會持續來督導這些單位部長在鵝梅的就是新竹鵝梅這個高壓變電站的時候那之前在520之前有人嘗試要去破壞相關的這一個部分那之前在桃園機場也有工人"},{"start":279.033,"end":279.213,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚"},{"start":302.691,"end":328.337,"text":"有嫌疑人等或者是沒有被授權的人出現在那個場域有些動作就會被偵測到所以投資設備甚至是比部署人力會來得更有效率我想請問部長未來有沒有方法或者是有沒有採取相關的措施在增強相關的科技設備在做監測跟確保不會有未經授權的人士出現在不該出現的地方"},{"start":328.777,"end":332.1,"text":"希望部長可以把所有你們業館的從台電中油和台水我們關鍵基礎建設關鍵基礎設備所有需要"},{"start":353.197,"end":377.217,"text":"部署相關設備的地方全部統整並且同時把這些相關資訊給我們的官單位知道那我前幾天看到內政部好像說會派警力或者甚至是國防部說會派憲兵來做一些相關基礎建設的部署我覺得這當然是很好但是除了能力的部署之外我想經濟部本身在設備的投資上面可以"},{"start":378.183,"end":378.243,"text":"國民黨國會議員提到"},{"start":390.046,"end":390.186,"text":"謝謝委員知道"},{"start":420.492,"end":420.512,"text":"好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98679fa85c6d3e41bda6cabf0dc0d1a8b7b5dc6a9f8e8436d61936c39b81b8ab135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"13:23:18 - 13:32:19","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T13:23:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T13:32:19+08:00","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1256,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時23分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["涂委員權吉：郭部長你好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：郭部長對經濟部各方面應該都很專業，我想請問一下你知道SRF是什麼東西嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不知道。"],["涂委員權吉：SRF是現在最新的，叫做固體再生燃料。那可能要請署長來幫忙回答一下。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["涂委員權吉：請問我們認定SRF是綠能嗎？"],["游署長振偉：SRF要看它廢棄物的來源，廢棄物的來源如果包含石化的話，就沒有辦法被認定為綠能。"],["涂委員權吉：那麼臺灣SRF的標準可以算綠能嗎？"],["游署長振偉：這還是要看它的SRF組成的成分，如果它是來自農業資材，這些當然可以被認定為是綠能；還是要看它的組成。"],["涂委員權吉：如果是像我們臺灣的SRF，它並沒有特別限定，它裡面有包含廢輪胎、PVC管，還有一些塑料、金屬材料，這些燃燒出來的東西算是綠能嗎？"],["游署長振偉：這個部分還是要看它的成分……"],["涂委員權吉：廢輪胎燒出來的東西可以算綠能嗎？"],["游署長振偉：以廢輪胎來講，石化的話如果是橡膠，當然就不能被歸納為綠能的部分，但是我們講說用廢棄物製成燃料再發電，目前在我們的再生條例裡面是認定為再生能源，但它不是綠能。"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以基本上以臺灣SRF的標準，嚴格來講不能算是綠能，只能算是再生能源嘛！"],["游署長振偉：還是要看它的成分啦！我跟委員報告，還是……"],["涂委員權吉：有碳排可以算綠能嗎？"],["游署長振偉：它裡面如果有包含石化原料的話……"],["涂委員權吉：就不算是綠能嘛！"],["游署長振偉：對。"],["涂委員權吉：臺灣的排放標準其實就包含這些，所以嚴格來講，它含有這些東西，燒出來就不算是綠能。","那我想請問一下，109年的時候，經濟部王美花部長跟我們桃園市的鄭文燦市長針對桃園的三家SRF廠入園……這部分署長應該知道吧？這三家廠商就是臺灣立方、可寧衛和立疆。"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個知道。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這三家廠商，後來因為民眾說沒有環評、沒有開公聽會而開始抗爭，我們去瞭解以後，其實從107年開始，我們的經發局、專業主管單位就反對這三家SRF廠入園，後來他們也特別針對汽電共生的部分，很明確地說汽電共生只能是天然氣，也就是說，這個SRF的發電廠是被禁止入園的，但是後來因為王美花部長開會要求鄭文燦市長，希望以專案來入園。何謂專案入園？就是依規定沒有辦法，但是以國家重大能源政策，用特別的方式讓它入園。但是後來發生民眾抗爭，而且在民眾抗爭之後，我們才發現鄭市長原先也是不同意的，是因為經濟部要求，後來鄭市長也說：那你發推薦函，我再允許它入園。","這個部分署長應該知道吧？後來因為民眾抗爭，又取消了這個推薦函，你應該也瞭解吧？","那我請問一下，當初這三家廠商入園之後，我們跟廠商有沒有信賴保護原則？"],["郭部長智輝：我請連署長回答一下。"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，當初是基於剛才講的再生能源還有循環經濟……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，我的意思是說，當初因為經濟部推薦，我們鄭市長才同意它入園……"],["連署長錦漳：經濟部推薦函沒有……"],["涂委員權吉：這裡面有沒有信賴保護原則？"],["連署長錦漳：經濟部推薦函只是純粹的一個建議，整個會議紀錄也作很清楚，還是要回歸到桃園市政府的主管條例去處理。"],["涂委員權吉：桃園市政府鄭市長有講，他是依經濟部的推薦函才同意這三家廠商入園。所以後來經濟部撤銷這個推薦函，市府也在經濟部撤銷推薦函之後取消他們入園，但是現在這三家廠商已經對桃園市政府提告，不知道經濟部知不知道這個事情？"],["連署長錦漳：他們是提訴願。"],["涂委員權吉：對，提訴願，就是訴訟嘛！當初就是有信賴保護原則，所以他們才提出訴願，對不對？"],["連署長錦漳：跟委員報告，我們那個建議函在所有的入園許可當中不是必備要件，完全是回到桃園市政府當時主管的入園相關許可去……"],["涂委員權吉：那我請問一下，你們當初推薦他們入園的原因是什麼？"],["連署長錦漳：剛剛我有跟委員報告過，這是基於第一個要發展再生能源，第二個是循環經濟，第三個是因為如果這三個廠起來的話，有一些額外的規定：第一個，它要處理60%桃園市的垃圾量，而且不能在境內……"],["涂委員權吉：署長，我重點請問一下，因為經濟部當初推薦，所以市府才讓他們入園，結果後來經濟部為什麼又取消？市府當初有講是依經濟部的推薦才同意它入園，後來經濟部取消這個推薦函，表示這個推薦已經不復存在，所以市府因推薦函的取消，也取消它入園，但是後來廠商提出訴願，我想請問這個部分難道經濟部不用負責，全部由桃園市政府來承擔嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，剛剛我也特別提到這個只是一個建議，我們的會議紀錄寫得非常清楚，一切還是要回到桃園市政府的土管條例……"],["涂委員權吉：好。我今天講重點，當初依經濟部上級單位專業的推薦，市府也特別講它是依經濟部的推薦，它才同意入園，鄭文燦市長講得很清楚，後來你們主動收回這個推薦函，表示這個推薦的原因已經不復存在，所以我這邊簡單兩點建議：現在民眾已經抗爭，而且針對SRF，署長從頭到尾根本沒有辦法大聲說它是綠能，其實它根本就是垃圾焚化爐，你去看看排放標準，它根本就是焚化爐。所以我在這邊建議，如果真的要處理，我建議經濟部撤銷這個再生能源的發電設備許可，還有撤銷這個廠商再生發電能源的躉購合約，這才能夠真正為民眾解決問題，不應該當初經濟部下指導棋，現在把所有要國賠的事情通通推給桃園市政府，我覺得經濟部這是不負責任的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，再生能源是沒有問題的，但是它不是綠能。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！我講重點它就不是綠能，所以現在民眾就反彈了，當初講SRF聽起來很高科技，結果根本就是垃圾焚化爐，你看看那個標準，燒廢輪胎、燒PVC管、燒金屬建材物，燒出來的東西怎麼可能是綠能？所以這一部分真的要處理，就像我剛剛講的那兩樣，再生能源的許可還有再生能源發電的躉購合約真正取消，才能真的為民眾解決問題，不應該讓桃園市政府單方面去面對廠商國賠的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是再生能源沒有錯，只是不是綠能，就是你剛才所說的不是綠能……"],["涂委員權吉：好，我建議經濟部……"],["郭部長智輝：它是再生能源，所以我沒有辦法撤銷它是再生能源。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我希望經濟部能夠跟桃園市政府共同面臨這個問題，不要讓桃園市政府單獨面對廠商訴願、國賠的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂委員。","接下來我們請林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","馬文君、馬文君、馬文君委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","林月琴、林月琴、林月琴委員不在。","我們請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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委員好我想請問一下 郭部長你這個對我們這個經濟部的方面應該是很專業我想請問一下 那這SIF你知道這是什麼東西嗎 不知道"},{"start":40.067,"end":53.468,"text":"那SRF它是現在最新的叫做固體再生燃料那是不是那個那可能請署長來幫忙回答一下那我請問一下SRF的部分我們這邊認定它是綠能嗎"},{"start":57.625,"end":76.832,"text":"呃,SRF要看它的廢棄物的來源,那廢棄物的來源如果包含石化的話,它就沒有辦法被認定為是綠能。那台灣的SRF的標準可以算綠能嗎?對,這個還是要看它的這個SRF的組成的成分,如果它是來自農業資材,這些當然可以被認定為是綠能,還要看它的組成。"},{"start":78.633,"end":90.053,"text":"如果像我們臺灣的SRF它並沒有特別限定它裡面有包含廢輪胎、PVC管還有一些塑料、金屬材料那這些燃燒出來的部分的東西它算是綠能嗎?"},{"start":91.755,"end":112.469,"text":"呃這個部分就要看他的還是要還是要看他的這些燒出來的東西廢輪胎燒出來可以算綠能嗎廢輪胎如果他就是石化的話如果是橡膠當然他就不能被歸納為是綠能的部分但是我們講說用廢棄物製成燃料再發電這目前在我們的再生條例裡面這個是認定為再生能源但是他不是綠能"},{"start":113.45,"end":127.228,"text":"好 所以基本上臺灣的SRF其他的標準嚴格來講算起來不能算是綠能只能算是再生能源嗎還是要看它的成分啦我跟委員報告那有碳排可以算綠能嗎"},{"start":128.817,"end":144.408,"text":"就是說它如果是裡面有包含石化原料的話就不算是綠能嘛但是所以我臺灣的排放標準其實就是包含這些所以嚴格來講它有這些東西燒出來就不能算是綠能那我想請問一下那我們針對我們109年的時候我們經濟部長那時候王美花部長"},{"start":148.911,"end":170.086,"text":"他有當時有跟我們那時候的桃園市長鄭文燦市長好針對桃園有3家SRF廠商入園這部分署長應該知道吧這3家就是台灣地方可寧會跟麗江3家廠嗎是這個知道好那針對這3家廠後來因為民眾說沒有環評沒有開公聽會後來"},{"start":176.854,"end":198.754,"text":"民眾就開始抗爭那我們去了解以後那其實在107年開始的時候我們經發級專業主管單位都反對這三家SRF廠入園然後後來也針對特別也針對氣電工生的部分他們也很明確說氣電工生只能天然氣所以也就是說這SRF廠的發電廠"},{"start":201.516,"end":201.876,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":223.177,"end":245.775,"text":"因為民眾的抗爭那我想請問一下後來民眾的抗爭之後我們也當時我們才發現原來鄭市長原先也是不同意的那後來也因為經濟部要求後來鄭市長也說那你發推薦函我再允許他入園那署長這部分你應該知道吧"},{"start":247.213,"end":263.352,"text":"那後來因為民眾抗爭又取消了這個推薦函那這部分應該也了解吧那我請問一下那當初這三家廠商入園之後我們跟廠商有沒有信賴保護原則"},{"start":266.243,"end":293.77,"text":"我請這個 署長回答一下我跟委員報告齁 當初是基於 剛才講的再生能源還有循環經濟沒關係我意思是說 當初因為經濟部推薦嘛 我們正式的同意他入園那這裡面有沒有信賴保護原則經濟部推薦案只是純粹的一個建議 那整個 裡面也會議區也做得很清楚還是要回歸到桃園市政府的所有的條例去處理所以就是"},{"start":294.96,"end":320.624,"text":"桃園市政府政事長有講他是依經濟部的推薦函才同意這三家廠商入園那所以現在我們經濟部撤銷這個推薦函那市府也依我們經濟部撤銷這個推薦函之後也取消他入園但是現在這三家廠商已經對桃園市政府提告不知道我們經濟部知不知道這個事情"},{"start":321.204,"end":345.959,"text":"那是提那個訴願對提訴願嘛就是訴訟嘛所以這個當初就是有信賴保護原則所以他才提出訴願對不對各位委員報告我們那個建議函在所有的入園許可中不是必備要件完全是回到桃園市政府當時的所謂的圖管那個入園的相關的許可去好那我請問一下你當初推薦他入園的原因是什麼"},{"start":346.857,"end":347.438,"text":"臺灣市政府垃圾處理量"},{"start":361.857,"end":384.578,"text":"好 那重點我請問一下 處長我重點請問一下那現在因為經濟部當初推薦所以市府才讓他入園結果後來為什麼經濟部又取消那市府當初有講我依經濟部的推薦我才同意他入園所以後來經濟部取消這個推薦函表示這個推薦已經不復存在所以後來"},{"start":385.279,"end":409.614,"text":"市府一推薦欄的取消所以也取消他入園但是後來廠商提出這個訴願那我想請問這個部分難道經濟部不用負責全部由桃園市政府來承擔嗎我跟委員報告剛剛我也特別提到這個只是一個建議那我們那個會議記錄寫得非常清楚所有一切還是要回到桃園市政府的圖管條例"},{"start":410.675,"end":427.972,"text":"好 那我今天講重點當初依經濟部的推薦經濟部上級單位專業的推薦市府也特別有講他是依我們經濟部的推薦他才同意入園這我們在資料講得很清楚那後來你們主動"},{"start":428.613,"end":437.077,"text":"收回這個推薦表示這個推薦的原因已經不復存在所以我認為這邊簡單兩點建議我是認為民眾已經抗爭而且其實SRF署長從頭到尾根本沒有辦法大聲說他是綠能其實他根本就是垃圾焚化爐你去看看這個排放標準根本就是焚化爐所以我這邊建議"},{"start":452.165,"end":474.979,"text":"如果真的要處理的話我建議經濟部撤銷這個再生能源的發電設備許可還有撤銷這個廠商再生發電能源的准購合約這才能夠真正為民眾解決問題不應該當初經濟部下指導期現在把所有要國賠的事情通通推給桃園市政府我覺得這個經濟部是不負責任的"},{"start":477.995,"end":503.733,"text":"報告委員這個再生能源是沒有問題的但是他不是綠能對啊我就講重點就不是綠能所以現在民眾就反彈啊當初講SRF聽起來很高科技結果根本就是垃圾焚化爐你看看那個標準燒廢輪胎燒PVC管燒金屬建材物燒出來的東西怎麼可能是綠能所以這部分我今天講的重點真的要處理就像我剛剛講的那兩樣再生能源"},{"start":505.974,"end":522.128,"text":"的許可還有再生能源發電的賭購合約真正取消才能為民眾解決真的問題不應該讓桃園市政府單方面去面對廠商國賠的問題報告委員這個是再生能源沒有錯這是不是綠能就是你剛才所說的不是綠能"},{"start":522.828,"end":523.168,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c984578cc93cc757ccf84a12a82c262ca10b5dc6a9f8e8436d66511b3ce30144c125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"13:17:01 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這個想法你覺得你同意嗎?我們的所有的醫療各機構應該都要按照規定來辦理嘛所以我再說一次加班多少時間就可以記錄多少時間就可以拿到多少加班的報酬或者是補修的權益部長同不同意?同意啊你同意對不對可是我們現在明明下面有八成的不利醫院他都沒有跟上啊他還在吃這些基層醫護人員的加班時數啊"},{"start":284.11,"end":308.094,"text":"你只要沒有到滿一個小時對不起那都不計都不算都消失了這是現況不是個案了好我們馬上檢討部長我現在我想提兩個要求啦很簡單三個月內督促這21家還沒加入的不利醫院第一個加班時數要如實記錄猜情系統馬上增列這個加班餘宿並記功能這應該沒問題吧這三個月內21家不利醫院應該沒問題吧"},{"start":314.554,"end":330.155,"text":"之前只有5家加入部長你現在的這個你現在遲疑的態度讓我會有一點懷疑你的決心阿我覺得這是最基本的事情阿我想基本的事情阿今天這麼簡單應該可以做的事情為什麼只有5家加入我是"},{"start":331.937,"end":355.475,"text":"市長知不知道為什麼?或者是衣服會?衣服會知不知道為什麼?是!可是現在剛剛市長也說要改善大家的勞動環境跟條件像這種吃掉人家加班時數的狀況這算是友善的勞動條件嗎?部長我覺得你要給一個更明確的決心該做到就做到"},{"start":357.959,"end":373.086,"text":"好,我們3個月內把它完成好了好,3個月內21家這個不利醫院跟療養院加班時數都可以如實記錄加入這病基功能第二件事情很重要現在是6月8月下個年度的總預算要送進來"},{"start":374.326,"end":396.954,"text":"我們要要求衛福部把加班費補修增補的人力的這些人事成本就像剛才說的把加班餘數並記以後能夠呈現的可能會增加一些人事成本都應該納入114年明年的年度預算裡面應該沒有問題吧這個一定要部長的話也沒辦法做是所以就這兩件事情部長三個月內完成可以嗎我覺得我們要還給這些基層的醫護人員最起碼的勞動權益跟正義啦"},{"start":400.635,"end":402.156,"text":"這是基本醫療人權,應該要保護"},{"start":427.474,"end":430.259,"text":"張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員"}]}},{"id":"153654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98d031f3071e3c596384a12a82c262ca10b5dc6a9f8e8436d6171d6b737590146f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:01:20 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13:16:55","影片長度":"00:15:35","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T13:01:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T13:16:55+08:00","duration":935,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":858,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時1分）謝謝召委。有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。恭喜部長凱旋歸國，也賀喜部長榮任部長。"],["邱部長泰源：要多跟建國委員學習。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝啦！","部長，我想，爭取參加WHA是不分朝野黨派的，加入也絕對是全臺灣2,300萬人共同期盼的一件事情。未來你可能有四年任期、甚至於更久，怎麼樣、如何以有雄心壯志、有事先規劃、累積八年的叩關經驗──你從當醫師公會全聯會理事長、委員、世界醫師全聯會理事累積這樣經驗的情況之下，有什麼樣的計畫、有什麼樣的雄心壯志、有什麼樣的預期打造目標，讓我們可以順利加入？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。第一個我要聲明的是，雖然我們的目標是進入WHO，甚至在WHA當observer，但是如果碰觸政治的壓力，也不要灰心喪志，我們還有很多事情可以照顧國人的健康，也有很多事情可以幫助世界的人民，這些都不要放棄。我們目前所做的就是一步一步在努力這些事情，而每一次努力成果都是一個關鍵、一個小成功，等這些累積以後，自然就有機會、會水到渠成。這是第一點我的理念。","第二，我覺得我們當然不能固守於過去的作法，要結合更多的力量。比如說，我常常在講，臺灣的醫衛團體至少有一百個，這一百個中，每個都是非常強的、跟國際有作連結，所以重點在於這些團體未來怎麼作為強大的結合力量。今天某一位委員詢答時也提到某一位專家如果去的話，可能因為其他國家大家很尊敬他，就會有很大的力量，這些我們也都要評估。第三個，我覺得培養更年輕的國際人才也是我們政府要作的責任，我想大概就從這幾個方面來努力。","但是我還是要對國人勉勵，就是大家一定要團結，每一次努力都是未來成功的關鍵、每一次努力都有豐碩的果實，而不要受到政治力量影響。目標在那邊，雖然目前好像還達不到，但是其實我們的努力已經享受到豐碩的成果。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我就是簡單讓你說明清楚。但是從後面的人才培訓來看，坦白講，要養成也不是一朝一夕就可以完成，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：而我一直特別強調的主題是在你未來四年，有可能更久嘛！但是我們先講第一個階段，就是未來四年要如何達標、達到這個目標嘛！部長剛剛答復我的基本上沒有針對我的問題作答復，但是鼓勵國人不要放棄、我們一起努力，跟所有醫界、醫事團體，大家共同一起發聲，連結到世界各地比較尖端、菁英的醫療人士，讓臺灣的能見度可以更高、讓臺灣在衛生醫療這樣的領域可以持續往前去領先，我覺得當然也是可以慢慢地去累積一點一滴的小小成果，應該誠如部長所講這樣的理念。","但是我還是希望有比較具體的做法。我在這邊具體建議部長，你可以看到最近在臺北辦得沸沸揚揚的國際電腦展，全世界科技的菁英、臺灣的重要科技龍頭都齊聚在一堂，每天新聞報不完，幾乎臺灣就是全世界在AI、在科技上非常重要、重中之重的國家。我們的能見度打開了，我們讓全世界看到臺灣在這塊領域的實力是這麼堅強！我們也無須擔憂中共透過任何政治力量的管道打壓我們。臺灣自詡醫療非常進步、先進，昨天我們又通過再生醫療雙法等等，AI未來絕對要跟醫療連結到一定的緊密程度。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以我才會特別希望部長，既然過去累積那麼多經驗、這麼多職務，是不是有了這個機會後能更有願景、更有規劃，也讓全世界醫療的重要人士，誠如你剛才所講的舉足輕重人士，可以時不時地來到我們臺灣參加任何論壇還是尖端醫療、AI醫療的相關國際會議？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得在這樣的情況之下，或許也會讓世界衛生組織刮目相看，或許我們舉辦的這些醫療公衛論壇在功能上甚至也會超越世界衛生組織，所以我才問部長有沒有這樣的雄心壯志。","再來，我拜讀了賴總統當天的就職演說，也拜讀了行政院卓院長的施政報告。我覺得打造一個AI島嶼國家、打造一個科技進步的國家、打造一個創新的國家，就誠如邱部長今天答復相關委員所講的，努力到80%就一直沒有辦法再往上衝的時候，可能就需要更有智慧的、更創新的思維。我建議在創新思維之外要兼具具體的做法，讓全世界頂端的、尖端的醫療產業、醫療人才不時地可以聚集在臺灣科技進步、醫療進步的國家，一起努力地促進世界衛生醫療，並成為世界上連結醫療跟科技最緊密、最有機會的國家。我們朝這個方向努力，部長，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：非常好，委員的指示是灼見，我們的國家就是應該要往這方面努力。在醫療衛生方面，我剛剛跟委員報告過，很多、很多團體其實都有請過重量級人士，都是世界主席來啦！幾乎所有專業團體，不管外科、內科、家醫科、婦產科等等，他們的世界主席每年到臺灣來演講的機會都非常多。另外，衛福部本身在每年11月也都辦有全球健康論壇，幾乎把友好國家全請到。我這次去，在四十幾場活動上，每一場都遞邀請函給部長，當然不一定大家都會來，但都滿有盛況的，也展示了我們臺灣在衛生領域的國力。對於AI或相關各方面的人才，我覺得也要集合起來，所以會遵照委員的指示來做。"],["劉委員建國：不要說指示，我只是特別向部長建議可以有立即性的、具體的做法。當然這不是部長一個人就可以承擔起來的，但是要快速地跨部會、快速作相關整合，可能在部長就任後的第一年就可以馬上展現出來，今天有國際電腦展在臺灣臺北，明年是不是會有國際AI醫療展在邱部長的主政之下馬上推動？經過第一年、第二年、第三年，我們會愈見成熟，就不怕任何打壓、任何政治上的干擾行為，我覺得這是給部長最好的建議跟參考，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：這是一件事情。","第二件事情，就誠如你所講的，人才的養成跟培育非常重要，我要請照護司上來一下，拜託主席再給我時間，我最後3分鐘把這件事情講完。日前呂次長來時，我特別跟他提及社工人力，社工人力不足的情況已經非常嚴重，未來五年可能不到需求的8%、7%。心理師這麼大的需求，人力卻不到7%，未來五年還是這個樣子。現在護理界，不管是護理師還是護士，把病床減量、關起來，絕非空穴來風，也不是現今才發生的事情。當然，司長也特別作了相關說明，但實際上跟司長說明的落差值非常大，我甚至可以馬上提供：雲林縣的區域醫院在幾年前就關了30%以上，只不過是沒有見報而已、只不過是不願意說出來而已。在人才、護理人力這麼欠缺的情況之下，如果又沒有求新、求變，沒有誠如邱部長所講的有創新思維、創新的政策，我跟你講，人數還是會持續降下來。他們面對的職場環境、面對的整個待遇、從夜班、從日班，相關期盼都必須由政府再匡列相關預算支持。","但是如果持續這樣的處理方式，一成不變地從預算面處理，人力方面還是一樣沒辦法解決。你可以看我的圖表，已經顯示每況愈下，110年63.44%，111年63.17%，112年63%。在100年的時候，我要求助理跟你們調相關資料，你們竟然跟我講沒有！那時我是跟幾位委員共同提案，要求改善護理環境、提升護理待遇。當時的衛生署編了10億，但10億分散給區域醫院、地區醫院、醫學中心之後，結果被拿去買制服、辦運動會，完全沒有用在護理人員身上，隔年才再增加20億。先不要說夜班的加班費、不要說未來日班的相關津貼，這幾年公部門編了多少預算投入護理界？司長，你比我更清楚。我絕對支持，但是在投入這麼多預算的情況之下仍讓護理人員的執業率持續下降，你該當何罪啊！你有什麼新的、創新的方式，誠如部長所講的？你要回應啊！你要說明清楚啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：好，謝謝委員。臺灣整個護理人力的問題在於量上面的主要問題是留不住，那職場環境的改善就是重要的。"],["劉委員建國：改善了十多年，投入這麼多預算，還是在講職場環境要改善？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們在去年已經得到行政院核定，有12項計畫，不管是從人才增加10%的培育以及職場環境跟薪資的改善，有12項策略。針對12項策略，目前已經有40億經費得到支持，也開始在運用了。還有3項計畫是中長程的，4月也提到行政院，核定完之後，我們也會……"],["劉委員建國：預期效益就是增加10%嘛！對不對？預期效益嘛！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：人力。"],["劉委員建國：人力要提高10%嘛！對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是量。"],["劉委員建國：是不是這樣？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：量能可以提高10%嘛！也就是說，112年是63%，可能未來可以增加到73%嘛！是不是這樣？你的意思是這樣嘛！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是培育的人力啦！"],["劉委員建國：培育的人力？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：就是說對於未來量的需求……"],["劉委員建國：我現在是在跟你談領有護理師跟護士執照者執業的下降率，而你是在答復我如何讓這個比例往上提升嘛！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，就是執業率要提升。"],["劉委員建國：對，執業率提升。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：執業人數增加。"],["劉委員建國：那你要提升10%，對不對？就是預期效益嘛！何時達標？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：不是10%。"],["劉委員建國：不然是幾個百分點嘛？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們針對未來供需做了一些試算，2030年大概需要增加最少5.5萬。"],["劉委員建國：最少5.5萬？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：2030年。"],["劉委員建國：2030年？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在是2024年，所以還有6年時間。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以平均每年要增加一萬出頭嘛！對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：這是預期要達到的效益跟目標？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是。"],["劉委員建國：確定可以達標？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們積極努力。"],["劉委員建國：積極努力？那我們就要檢視了嘛！現在這些相關計畫跟經費都到位了吧？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：部分到位，部分在爭取中。"],["劉委員建國：部分到位，部分在爭取中？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。我們現在有12項計畫，在這12項計畫裡面，目前在三班輪值、夜班獎勵這40億已經到位。另外，還有其他3項，大概一年要將近……"],["劉委員建國：不！你簡單答復我好不好？12項中已經到位幾項了嘛？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：基本上全部都啟動了啦！經費部分，有兩項已經到位。至於其他的，目前還有3項在爭取經費，有些不是直接由我們公務預算處理的也開始了，比如說公職護理師比例增加或三班護病比標準的訂定跟推動。"],["劉委員建國：這12項政策基本上都啟動了嘛！對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，所以預期到了2030年進入職場的護理人力可以增加5萬5,000人嘛！是不是這樣？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：那我們明年就可以檢視了喔！目標是5萬5,000人，從2025年開始算嘛！對不對？那等同一年要增加將近1萬人嘛！沒有錯吧？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，但是我們的重點在於希望從每年沒有進入職場與流失的8,000人裡面，每年能夠多增加五成進入職場。"],["劉委員建國：我現在跟你講的、我在請教你的就是增加的，你不要再跟我講未扣掉流失的人數喔！你不能對我答復這種模稜兩可的事情喔！我是在講增加，如果你要跟我講可能增加1萬、流失8,000，那就只有增加2,000喔！你講的12項計畫如果是這麼不堪，那不叫計畫喔！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：沒有，我們是將增加再加上留任減少後所做的數字推估。"],["劉委員建國：所以在增加跟減少之後，每年要增加將近1萬個護理人力投入職場裡面，對不對？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是、是、是。"],["劉委員建國：好。","請部長多多注意這件事情好不好？不管是社工、不管是護理人力。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會跟相關專業團體共同研擬更好的方案。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員。","接下來請洪申翰委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.806593750000001,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.840343750000001,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":5.042843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.50221875,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.860343750000002,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.910968750000002,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.805343750000002,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.218468750000003,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.90971875,"end":20.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.83784375,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.85846875,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.90034375,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.69284375,"end":31.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.75596875,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.940343750000004,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.90596875,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.74534375,"end":46.875968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.34846875,"end":60.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.62909375,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.63721875,"end":68.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.99909375,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.67409375,"end":69.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.69096875000001,"end":70.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.85534375,"end":72.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.20096875,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.37721875000001,"end":83.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.27096875000001,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.64096875,"end":108.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.63409375,"end":113.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.80221875000001,"end":126.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.30659375,"end":139.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.57034375,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.92346875,"end":149.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.21846875,"end":151.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.65284375000002,"end":152.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.90159375000002,"end":153.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.36971875,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.52534375000002,"end":165.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.41846875000002,"end":166.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.68846875,"end":168.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.56159375000001,"end":172.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.69596875000002,"end":180.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.69471875000002,"end":181.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.08284375000002,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.58909375000002,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.97721875000002,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.24596875,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.37221875,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.51534375000003,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.23659375000003,"end":250.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.19846875000002,"end":251.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.70034375000003,"end":253.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.47659375,"end":254.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.48471875,"end":255.65346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.73784375000002,"end":257.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.29034375000003,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259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謝謝第一個我首先要"},{"start":73.457,"end":91.813,"text":"聲明的就是說我們雖然目標是在當進入WHO甚至WHO當Observer但是如果碰觸政治的壓力我們也不要灰心喪志我們還有很多事情可以來照顧國人的健康也很多事情我們可以來幫助世界的人民這些都不要放棄"},{"start":92.714,"end":108.497,"text":"我們目前所做的就是一步一步在努力這件事情而每一次的努力的成果就是一個關鍵一個小成功那等這個累積以後自然就有機會會水到其成這是我的理念第一個第二個"},{"start":109.687,"end":138.449,"text":"第2個我覺得我們當然不能說固守於過去的做法要結合更多的力量比如說我常常在講因為我們的醫衛團體臺灣的醫衛團體至少有100個這每100個都是非常強的跟國際有做連結這些未來怎麼樣來做強大的一個結合的力量今天的委員也有形容到說我們因為專家可能很多有的國家是如果他去的話會"},{"start":140.031,"end":153.111,"text":"大家尊敬他會有很大的力量這些我們也都要評估第三個我覺得培養更年輕的國際人才也是我們政府要做的責任我想大概"},{"start":156,"end":180.007,"text":"這幾個來努力但是我還是要跟國會勉勵大家我們一定要團結然後每一個努力都是未來成功的關節每一個努力都是有豐碩的果實而不是一個可能受到政治力量的一個目標在那邊目前好像還達不到但是其實我們的努力我們已經享受到豐碩的成果謝謝"},{"start":182.427,"end":205.037,"text":"部長,我就簡單讓你說明清楚,但是從後面的這個人才的培訓坦白講,樣稱也不是一朝一夕就可以完成,對不對?那我一直特別強調的主題是說在你這個未來的四年,有可能更久嘛但是我們先講第一個階段,就是未來這四年的時候要怎麼如何可以達標,達到這個目標嘛那不過部長剛剛答覆我基本上是沒有針對我的問題來做答覆,但是"},{"start":207.878,"end":230.96,"text":"鼓勵國人不要放棄我們一起努力跟所有的這個這個醫界跟所有的醫治團體大家共同一起來發聲連結到世界各地的比較這個尖端精英的醫療的這些人士來讓台灣的能見度可以更高讓台灣的這樣的衛生醫療的領域可以持續的往前去領先"},{"start":231.48,"end":254.317,"text":"我覺得當然也是慢慢的去累積一點一滴的小小成果應該是誠如部長講的這樣的一個理念但是我還是希望有一個比較具體的我是不是在這邊可以具體建議部長你可以看到最近在台北辦的沸沸揚揚的國際電腦展全世界科技的精英臺灣重要的科技龍頭"},{"start":260.415,"end":280.179,"text":"臺灣就是一個全世界在AI在科技非常重要、重中之重的一個國家。我們的能見度打開了。我們讓全世界看到臺灣在這一塊的實力是這麼堅強。我們也無需擔憂中共透過任何政治力量的管道去打壓我們。"},{"start":281.459,"end":310.111,"text":"他們的醫療秩序非常的進步、先進昨天我們又通過再生醫療雙環等等等那AI未來絕對要跟醫療連結到一定的緊密的程度所以我才會特別希望部長你累積過去這麼多的經驗這麼多的職務應該是不是有這個機會更有一個願景更有一個規劃也讓全世界的醫療重要的人數剛才成旅所講的"},{"start":311.144,"end":325.254,"text":"舉足輕重的是可以時不時的來到我們台灣參加任何的一個論壇還是所謂的尖端醫療AI醫療的這樣的一個相關的一個國際的一個會議"},{"start":328.596,"end":350.116,"text":"我覺得這個樣子的情況之下或許也會讓世界衛生組織寡慕相看或許我們舉辦了相關的這些醫療公衛的論壇也會在功能上甚至超越過世界衛生組織所以我才想說部長有沒有這樣的雄心壯志再來我拜讀到賴總統的"},{"start":351.944,"end":376.591,"text":"當天就職的演說．也拜託行政院．我們院長卓院長的施政報告．我覺得打造一個AI的導入國家．打造一個科技進步的國家．打造一個創新．就像邱副長說．今天導入相關委員所講的．努力到80%一直沒有辦法再往上衝的時候．那可能就是要有更有智慧的．更創新的這樣的一個思維．"},{"start":377.375,"end":403.432,"text":"所以我建立這樣一個創新的思維就要兼具具體的做法讓全世界的頂端的尖端的醫療的產業醫療的人才時不時的可以來聚集在臺灣這一個進步科技進步醫療進步的這個國家我們一起努力的為世界的衛生醫療為世界連結這個醫療跟科技結合最緊密的"},{"start":404.192,"end":430.917,"text":"這樣的一個最有機會的一個國家我們可以朝這個方向來做努力,部長可以嗎?非常好,委員的指示非常著見我覺得我們國家就是應該要往這方面努力那在醫療衛生方面其實我剛剛有跟委員報告過就是很多很多的團體其實都有請重要級正重要級的都是世界主席來的所以幾乎所有的專業團體的不管外科、內科"},{"start":432.117,"end":450.168,"text":"加一科、副產科幾乎每年他們的主席世界主席都會到臺灣來演講的機會非常多另外衛福部本身在11月每年也都辦有全球的健康論壇幾乎把全友好國家的我今天這次去40幾場每場都遞邀請函"},{"start":453.31,"end":479.874,"text":"給部長那當然不一定大家會來那就是這個也是盛況都是蠻盛況的也展示我們臺灣在衛生的國力那至於是AI或相關這個各方面的人才我覺得我們要集合起來對所以我我特別委員的指示這樣來做不要說指示我只是特別跟部長建議我們可以有立即性的具體的做法當然這不是部長一個人就可以承擔起來但是"},{"start":480.354,"end":480.374,"text":"〔廣告〕"},{"start":502.077,"end":519.014,"text":"第一年、第二年、第三年我們會越見成熟就不怕任何打壓、任何政治上的干擾的行為我覺得這給部長做最好的一個建議跟參考好不好這是一件事情第二件事情就曾女所講的人才的養成跟培育非常重要我要請趙復師上來一下齁"},{"start":521.076,"end":542.99,"text":"我最後的三分鐘拜託主席再給我把這個事情講完那一天女士來我特別跟她講社工能力社工能力的部署已經非常的嚴重未來的五年幾乎可能不到需求的百分之八、百分之七新比士這麼大的需求就不到百分之七未來五年還是這個樣子那現在護理界不管是護師、護理師還是護士"},{"start":546.691,"end":568.536,"text":"這個說把病床減量關起來就會揮空穴來風也不是現今才發生的事情當然市長有特別的做相關的說明但實際上跟市長說明的落差值是非常大我甚至可以馬上提供雲縣的區域醫院在幾年前就關了百分之三十以上只不過是沒有見報而已"},{"start":569.756,"end":587.844,"text":"只不過是不願意說出來而已當人才、護理人力這麼欠缺的情況之下如果我們沒有求新求變我們沒有像邱部長所講的有創新的思維創新的政策我跟你講你的人數還是會持續降下來因為我們面對到職場的環境"},{"start":589.625,"end":589.725,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":608.616,"end":631.45,"text":"去做這樣的解決你這個人力方還是一樣沒辦法解決你可以看我的圖表齁這個已經每況愈下114年63.44、111年63.17、112年63在100年的時候我要求處理要跟你們調相關資料你們竟然跟我講沒有那時候是跟幾位委員有共同提案改善護理環境提升護理待遇當時的衛生署編了10億"},{"start":634.612,"end":659.85,"text":"因為10億分散給這些區議院、地區議院、醫學中心結果拿去買制服辦運動會完全沒有用在護理人員身上隔年才再增加20億這幾年不要說夜班的加班會不要說未來的日班的相關的津貼這幾年投入護理界我們公部門編了多少預算市長你比我更清楚但是我絕對支持"},{"start":661.038,"end":689.416,"text":"但是投入這麼多的預算的情況之下讓護理人員的職業率持續下降你該當何罪你有什麼新的創新的方式就你部長所講的你要回應啊你要說明清楚啊好謝謝委員那整個現在臺灣的護理人力的問題是在於他留不住量上面是主要的問題是留不住那就是職場環境的改善是重要的"},{"start":689.963,"end":703.199,"text":"我們改善了10多年我們投入這麼多的預算還是在講職場環境要改善是那我們在去年在行政院已經有得到這個核定那有12項的計畫那不管是從人才的這個增加10%的培育"},{"start":708.188,"end":729.637,"text":"以及職場環境的改善跟薪資的改善有12項策略那這12項策略目前已經有40億在做一個這個金費已經得到這個支持跟也開始在運用了那目前我們還有三項計畫是中長程的就是現在4月也提到行政院如果核定完之後我們也會預期效益就是增加10%嘛對不對"},{"start":730.737,"end":730.917,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":745.458,"end":745.818,"text":"委員會主席劉建國"},{"start":765.987,"end":766.487,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":796.128,"end":807.836,"text":"積極努力。積極努力。那我們現在就要來檢視了嘛。如果現在這些相關的計畫跟經費都到位了吧?部分到位,部分在爭取中。"},{"start":808.51,"end":808.55,"text":"市長,市長"},{"start":828.174,"end":843.628,"text":"基本上全部都啟動了啦那經費的部分有兩項兩項已經到位嘛那其他的還有三項目前在爭取經費那有的不是直接由我們來公務預算的也開始比如說公職護理師的比例增加啦"},{"start":844.288,"end":872.848,"text":"或是這個三方互併比的標準的訂定跟推動十二項的這個這個指標這個這個這個這個政策基本上都啟動了嘛對對不對好啊所以預期到2031年可以增加護理人力進入到職場增加到五萬五千人嘛是不是這樣是好那我們明年就可以來檢視囉你的五萬五除以從2025開始嘛對不對那等同就是一年要將近一萬嘛沒有錯吧"},{"start":874.852,"end":895.768,"text":"對,但是他的這個我們重點在於他每年有流失的就沒有進來跟流失的這個8000個人裡面我們希望每年能夠多增加這個5成我現在跟你講的我請教你的就是你增加的你不要再跟我講說你沒有扣掉流失的喔你不能跟我打呼這種無影響的事情喔"},{"start":897.278,"end":914.189,"text":"﹗"},{"start":914.862,"end":932.656,"text":"所以增加跟減少每年要將近增加一萬的護理人力投入到職場裡面嘛對不對?是是是好請部長多多注意這件事情好不好不管社工不管護理人力好謝謝好我們會跟相關的專業團體也共同來原理更好的方案好謝謝好謝謝劉建國委員接下來請洪森"}]}},{"id":"153653","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153653","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98445b5f86a53a881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"text":"羅廷瑋議員"},{"start":19.697,"end":41.873,"text":"委員好部長第一次跟您談話那看完了這一個經濟部的業務報告半導體AI全球佈局供電穩定還有中小型的低碳數位雙軸轉型那我關心的是水環境那過往我們在這個前瞻預算有相關的水環境的一些建設"},{"start":42.932,"end":65.36,"text":"那我在這個上任的初期2月1號以後很積極的想要去了解未來的還有沒有前瞻預算以及會不會編列一些預算對於台中市的水環境給予我們更多的一些建設那我有去關心那我想先問一下部長你有來過台中嗎很少很少台中有柳川綠川有聽過嗎"},{"start":67.515,"end":91.508,"text":"聽過柳川綠川其實在林佳龍市長任內盧秀燕市長任內不斷的努力做了一期二期甚至柳川有做到三期那目前我們在做第四期的一個延伸有爭取相關的一個計畫可惜應該是台中市政府的計畫內容沒有寫得很好然後被打槍這當然不能夠怪經濟部也不能怪水利署"},{"start":92.108,"end":106.644,"text":"但是後續我在追蹤這個問題的過程當中發現水利署告訴我是沒有預算需要再辨列不知道部長對於水環境的建設未來可不可以展現出態度也願意一起來重視呢?"},{"start":108.407,"end":134.52,"text":"我想我們對各市提出來的這些需求我想我們都會重視是謝謝部長但是就是因為業務報告沒有看到水環境的部分當然當然不可能要你全部寫完然後經濟部的工作內容太多了所以我是擔憂水環境的部分會不會喊卡而台中市包括柳川綠川以及我們的三合分署"},{"start":135.3,"end":163.982,"text":"山河局所管轄的我東區漢溪大理漢溪潭子漢溪豐原漢溪北屯的漢溪這條漢溪非常的長也需要經濟部給予一定的預算這個部分是不是能夠幫我深入探討呢部長是我剛才聽我們水利署在講說這個還在這個立法院審議中所以只要審過我們就會去執行那你有提出需求有提出相關預算給我們審嗎"},{"start":166.668,"end":189.281,"text":"現在的第5期的概算那個我請這個隨意書來回答您問題因為當時國會聯絡人跟我們講說不是這些的計畫都在縣政府縣市政府在提報之中但是因為它涉及到前瞻的第5期預算那第5期預算現在在概編之中那未來若是第5期預算奉大院審定核定的時候我們就開始啟動平和的作業"},{"start":190.121,"end":200.532,"text":"因為我們基本上我都知道一定是臺中市政府先送計畫來爭取但是問題是我跟國有聯絡人在聯繫的時候他所謂的前瞻預算第5期他是告訴我沒有這筆錢"},{"start":202.627,"end":226.943,"text":"我們會改正這一部分所以這個部分是不是能夠幫我關注一下到底是資訊上的一個落差還是怎麼樣但是我今天的重點就是我很關注台中市的水環境那台中市的水環境在之前的努力有給予我們一定的預算一二三期都有做後面能不能延伸柳川的第四期綠川的第三期以及漢溪的整治這部分是不是可以高度的一個關注"},{"start":228.291,"end":254.339,"text":"在未來的審查的時候我們來看市政府的計畫是怎麼樣的進行我想部長今天很多人對於AI對於發電能源綠能都有很多的一個關注跟你做探討今天我想少數會跟你探討這一個部分的水環境是不是也請你稍微幫我留意一下我也希望看到第5期的前瞻能夠審過以後能夠事實真的有編列這樣的預算分配到台中市讓我們繼續延續之前的水環境建設"},{"start":255.259,"end":256.46,"text":"經濟部有自己首推的縣市嗎?"},{"start":283.308,"end":286.57,"text":"臺中市今天我們也詢問過臺中也要參戰那臺中也有自己的一個地點也蠻推薦的也希望經濟部能夠抱持著就是說中立"},{"start":301.798,"end":301.818,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c986cf10927fdfcc9f5a6cabf0dc0d1a8b7b5dc6a9f8e8436d6f1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"13:09:36 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Su還是英特爾的季辛格，他們來到這裡除了搶曝光以外，我想他們參加臺灣電腦展的真正目的是為了鞏固與臺灣供應廠商的關係，應該是這樣子吧？你怎麼看？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員惠員：很明確就是這個樣子。曾經部長你也講過，你認為未來50年靠著AI晶片、AI伺服器，臺灣將繼續地引領風騷。我們透過這些都非常清楚看到臺灣就是高科技的產業鏈，其實需要穩定的、先進的、自主的能源作為後盾，我想這點無庸置疑，所以我要跟部長討論的就是臺灣的電池產業。在中國搶占全球市場、排擠臺灣電池產業的經濟侵略下，部長有沒有一個思維──就是考慮到國安、本土化、去中化的穩定儲能是一個趨勢，且勢在必行？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，如委員所指教的，針對儲能，因為我們也有用一些光電、用一些風電，所以儲能的智慧調整對我們來講相對是非常重要的部分。我們不一定要靠中國的電池產業，大家都清楚，它在安全性等其他方面不見得那麼穩健，所以我們必須要有自己的產業。"],["賴委員惠員：所以部長已經看到了，其實你也實際在產業界做到了很好的使用者體驗，知道中國的電池基本上並不是那麼安全。","在全世界去中化經濟正在風起雲湧的時候，其實中國也透過五、六兆臺幣的優渥補助發展。我們都知道，中國對經濟、包括他們的產業，就是用補貼經濟學整個輾壓式、坦克式地發展，不管是用補貼或任何方式。現在臺灣的電池產業其實面臨很大的困境，這幾年只剩下唯一一個還在不斷奮力抵抗的產業，就是電池產業。我在這裡想跟部長探討，全球鋰電池產業每年需求量是以27%的幅度不斷增加，有沒有辦法用政策面支持本土電池產業？也就是政策性地補貼所有業者，不管是國產的台電、中華電、中鋼、中船，由他們用最多電池，你也強力推動，政策性地要求使用國產電池，有沒有這樣的政策呢？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員指教。關於這部分，我想我們必須回去再討論一下這樣的做法有沒有違反WTO規範。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["郭部長智輝：如果沒有的話，我覺得應該是可以考慮從這方面來強化。"],["賴委員惠員：可是，2022年我們的國家電池隊已經宣示成立了喔！關於這些問題，我想之前的行政院團隊應該已經考慮得夠周全了。如果標檢局已經核定國內電池的安全定值，就應該用政策性補貼，這個應該是沒有問題的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，一個企業不管是做哪一方面的事業，都應該要有自己的競爭力啦！"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯。"],["郭部長智輝：如果是靠國家補助，我覺得它還是走不出去。我們希望我們臺灣的……"],["賴委員惠員：我前面已經鋪陳了這麼久，就是說在整個去中化裡頭其實國內電池已經被中國的補貼政策打得東倒西歪了，如果現在只剩下一家，你還不來救它的話，那怎麼辦呢？我們所有的電池產業就必須仰仗進口，這是不對的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們會從技術力跟市場這方面強化它，在技術方面強化它。"],["賴委員惠員：所以我就講，如果給予政策性協助，由國營企業跟政府基礎建設帶頭使用國產電池的話，我覺得是非常好的示範啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會回去討論。"],["賴委員惠員：好，我也希望部長好好討論，因為因應國際產業界去中化的浪潮，我希望能協助本國電池產業、強化國際競爭力，會後請把資料給我。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員惠員，部長請回座休息。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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等於是所有董事長的董事長"},{"start":150.325,"end":176.227,"text":"你管企業基本上你應該有辦法請你告訴我們有什麼辦法讓他們對員工相信我最快的方法就是我的境內關外的這個做法境內關外我境內關外的做法就是利用一些稅制然後邀請國外用免稅的方法然後擴大我的內需市場那你跟財政部談過沒有請問"},{"start":177.932,"end":201.681,"text":"我們先提出來這樣的一個想法境內關外那就是過去我們在馬英九時代執政的時候所談到的經濟示範區這個概念境內關外自由流動零關稅零這個障礙對吧不完全一樣"},{"start":205.134,"end":220.749,"text":"這個我再問你一個具體的我提案了對中小企業將近150萬家他給員工加薪我們給他乘以現在是130乘以兩倍200%的費用你同意嗎"},{"start":222.096,"end":246.198,"text":"我盡量來讓這個所有的這個薪資啊都能夠提升到這個委員剛才所指導的這樣的一個方向境內管外的意思是要每一個地區都要劃境內管外喔港口旁邊機場旁邊都要劃是這個意思喔我們的境內管外是對某一些業者來講給他一些virtual的虛擬的virtual不是一個area不是這樣子"},{"start":247.052,"end":273.765,"text":"是一個虛擬的他在他原來的地方從事所謂價值在內關外可以加薪今天一個很重要的事情第二個請問你有沒有跟黃榮鑫見過面有什麼時候前幾天吃飯的時候怎麼沒有找你啊吃飯找我沒有沒有我大概因為在減肥所以不吃這個宵夜你不喜歡吃台灣的夜市是吧"},{"start":274.827,"end":286.534,"text":"我喜歡台灣夜市但是不喜歡跟大家一起逛夜市所以所以他逛夜市沒邀請你嗎我不是他的業者所以他不會邀請我"},{"start":289.482,"end":308.955,"text":"我希望你我們對一般對你期待是高的可是我感覺你接了部長這段時間你在變4月18號你說核電如果需要研議要全民共事這句話還有效嗎一樣好那我們請看下一頁現在最新的一個民調PACE"},{"start":315.666,"end":332.532,"text":"清潔人員公眾態度83%的臺灣人支持民調支持核電2018年以核養綠就是我核電來養我的綠電等到成熟了我核電再退"},{"start":334.014,"end":355.613,"text":"這個通過了這就是全民共識啊結果你在五天以前河山廠你說要用當作備用電力啊全世界沒有一個經濟部長或者一個大專家說河電居然是備用備援的UBA"},{"start":357.384,"end":373.85,"text":"河電當然是機載用電啊怎麼會是備用呢怎麼你越來越縮起來啊原來是說全民有公司我就用河電後來一直退啊變成我的感覺啊部長你原來是生意人大家因為知道你頭腦清楚會賺錢腦筋清楚"},{"start":376.67,"end":404.535,"text":"大家對你期待很高有個期待希望你不要變成政客但是你越來越像政客這個完全就是跟民進黨的廢核家人走了你現在不敢談核電了這個你不敢談核電了居然說AI用電量很高這時候你開始用光電難道把台灣全部都蓋滿這個光電板你說用光電你就是不談到核電"},{"start":405.168,"end":422.414,"text":"跟委員報告這個委員可能有點誤會啦齁這個何能不能不是說不能夠當機宅而是我在講說何能當然是機宅阿全世界都是機宅阿對啊怎麼被用了怎麼到底在那邊被用了被用是因為我將他他因為受我們現在的法令的規定他必須要降載"},{"start":423.354,"end":423.474,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":440.183,"end":443.146,"text":"你要蓋個新的電廠,要6年時間,對吧?對好,要6年時間,那就是天然氣的,又是有CO2,全世界是簡單不進核阿那現在有的核三長,我已經替你法律我都列好了"},{"start":456.298,"end":456.658,"text":"報告委員：賴士葆報告委員：賴士葆"},{"start":486.597,"end":494.006,"text":"這個法如果解掉的話這個法如果解掉了那我可能就會考慮這樣子做所以我們有各種不同的考慮沒有因為"},{"start":495.492,"end":495.992,"text":"謝謝委員指導謝謝來部長請回答"}]}},{"id":"153646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9857fcb38f08b6723ba6cabf0dc0d1a8b7fc6f3e651eb006593d997d3b3f5f9fd45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：對啊，要不然大家為什麼要節水，對不對？那我要這樣問，我是原住民選出來的立法委員，我們原住民經常會來跟我陳情，有關水質水量保護區水資源回饋金的問題，那我看到經濟部水利署公告，全國有114處劃設為保護區，其中屬於原鄉的有59處，占比大概是52%，如果用面積來算占比的話，其實占比是更大的。我舉一個例子來講，像高雄有一個那瑪夏區，曾經全鄉的民意代表來跟我陳情，就是有關他們的水資源回饋金的分配，我請教部長，如果說水資源回饋金它的分配比是3%，但是它的隔壁鄉（下游鄉），假設是甲仙，它的分配比是14.14%，你覺得你的感受是什麼？部長，我跟您說，感受一定不好，這是相對的剝奪感嘛。但是我要講的，他們其實位處水源地，是水源地的守護者，但是他們會不理解，為什麼跟隔壁鄉會差距這麼高？所以，我要特別在您的面前謝謝水利署，因為其實水利署這三年多很盡心盡力的來協助解決那瑪夏區的困擾，雖然還沒有結果，但是很有進展，我在這邊要特別謝謝水利署。","另外，我舉一個例子，就看北區好了，全國原鄉水源保護區面積最大的就是復興區，桃園的復興區，他們曾經也來跟我陳情，他們的訴求是什麼呢？第一，他們希望分配到的水資源回饋金，能夠免檢據申辦。那個金額也不多，還要檢據來申請，這個部分已經解決了，應該可以援例北水特局在烏來的作法，他們已經處理好。他們的第二個訴求就是，能不能夠把回饋金的分配公式調整一下，因為目前的公式是面積跟人口，他們以為這樣調整就可以解決這個問題。","第三個，他們的訴求是那就來治本，因為自來水法中水資源回饋金的徵收比例是5%到15%，但已歷經20年未調升，從增訂這個法至今20年來都一直維持在5%。我想這些都是解方，我自己也在想辦法，所以我也有提案修正自來水法第十二條之二，將距離水源遠近及受限制的程度納入，不要只看土地面積跟居民人口比例。我覺得增加這部分其實也不違背法條原旨，因為自來水法現行條文本來就授權補償金之發放應視土地使用現況、使用面積及其受限制程度。我想要請教一下部長，您的看法呢？我剛剛講了這麼多，您來自業界，這20年來水資源的珍稀程度不可同日而語，那您覺得我們該不該去修法？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我支持委員您的看法，我也感同身受，但是具體的內容，我不是那麼瞭解，是不是容我回去跟我的同仁我們大家研究以後，再跟您報告？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我是希望至少把它試算出來，然後研究一下，再來報告一下各位的態度，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，您的態度至少目前是肯定的、是支持的，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那他們一定會告訴你有很多的困難，我希望你要挺住，您來自基層，最接地氣，您來自偏鄉，來自業界，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主席，請再讓我問一個小問題，就是關於台電的部分。因為台電說我們電纜地下化的比例已經高達44.3%，高於日韓，但是我知道的是，原鄉也會來跟我抱怨，我們也要電纜地下化。請你看一下這個照片，您有沒有看到？有的部落裡面電線這個樣子像話嗎？但是我好像都等不到，我就不曉得這個母數到底是來自於全臺哪一些區域，我們原鄉也很想。因為我跟您報告，部長，我接到好幾個案例，都是電線，有的不是110伏特喔，220伏特喔，有的時候是電線裸露，有的時候是電線掉入水溝，族人去洗個手就電死了，所以電線不只是有礙觀瞻的問題，它也有很多安全的問題，所以我想這個部分，因為時間的關係，就給我一些資料送到我的辦公室讓我瞭解。還有這些在農耕區，包括集水區、河川區缺電的問題，因為我看到雲林，他已經可以申設電桿，有原則可循，但是我講的一些原住民區，好像目前都沒有，例如大同鄉南山村，我也有請第一河川局協助。以上的問題，謝謝部長您給我們一個高度肯定的回復，我非常的高興，也謝謝主席給我們時間。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。剛剛伍麗華委員提到的這部分，是不是請台電跟水利署也在一個禮拜內，可以嗎？把資料給伍委員，好不好？好，謝謝。部長請休息。","接下來請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長來請郭部長"},{"start":23.24,"end":33.27,"text":"部長好委員好我看到好多委員今天都在比來自哪裡那我跟您自我介紹我屏東我驕傲我跟您一樣來自屏東"},{"start":35.126,"end":59.327,"text":"謝謝那在這裡呢其實大家對您的印象就是您來自業界所以對您期許就是您一定可以做一個接地氣的部長特別是您來自偏鄉也做過基層的工作所以呢我想這也是賴總統卓院長對您的一個期許那我就來問比較接地氣的問題我們看到今年"},{"start":60.248,"end":85.815,"text":"就是有做一個BBC的全球市警就是三分之一的人類是高度缺水那另外呢今年的世界水資源日聯合國也提出一個市警就是全球有四分之一的人是沒有乾淨的飲水也因此呢在財經新聞我們看到水資源的概念股呢他是一個熱門股那您來自業界水有多麼珍貴"},{"start":86.775,"end":99.427,"text":"我相信您比任何人都更清楚所以我很想請教部長您就是面對水資源的一個缺席您認為用水的政策是不是要去做一些調整您的想法是什麼"},{"start":103.386,"end":123.765,"text":"用水的政策我想大家也還是雖然台灣是這個市面環海然後也經常下雨我認為用水還是大家要節省這個水現在因為這個氣候變遷的關係那用水要節省當然要有一些手段對不對是"},{"start":126.298,"end":147.281,"text":"對阿 要不然大家為什麼要截水 對不對那我這樣子問齁 就是我們原住民 我是原住民選出來的立法委員我們原住民經常會來跟我陳情阿 就是關於水之水量的保護區 水資源回饋金的問題那我看到經濟部水利署公告 全國"},{"start":148.542,"end":177.37,"text":"有114處是化射保護區那原鄉的部分呢有59處所以這個佔比大概是52%如果去用面積來算佔比的話那其實佔比是更大的那我以舉一個例子來講像是高雄有一個納瑪下區他們曾經全鄉的民意代表來跟我澄清就是有關他們的水資源回饋金的分配我請教部長"},{"start":178.49,"end":192.735,"text":"如果說他水資源回饋金他的分配比是3%但是他的隔壁箱下游箱假設是假先他的分配比是14.14%你覺得你的感受是什麼"},{"start":196.655,"end":209.482,"text":"這是依照人口跟面積的影響部長我跟您說感受一定不好啦這是相對剝奪感嘛但是我要講的他們其實是因為說他們是水源地水是水源地的守護者"},{"start":210.262,"end":233.264,"text":"那但是呢他們會不理解就是為什麼會差距這麼高所以我要特別在您的面前謝謝水利署因為水利署呢這三年多其實他們很盡心盡力的來協助納馬下區的一個困擾雖然還沒有結果但是很有進展我在這邊要特別謝謝水利署那另外我舉一個例子北區好了"},{"start":233.985,"end":257.123,"text":"全國原鄉水源保護區最大的面積的就是復興區桃園的復興區那他們曾經也來跟我澄清他們的訴求是什麼呢第一他們希望說他們分配到的水資源回饋金希望能夠去免檢據申辦那個錢也不多還要檢據來申請所以這個部分已經解決了因為可以原理"},{"start":257.924,"end":272.493,"text":"北水特局烏來他們已經處理了處理好那第二個訴求就是說能不能夠把回饋金的分配公式調整一下因為目前的公式是面積跟人口那他們以為這樣子調整就可以解決這個問題那第三個他們是說那就來治本"},{"start":276.075,"end":295.871,"text":"那我們就把自來水法裡面的這個水資源回饋金的比例已經訂定20年它的法源是5%到15%可是20年來從增訂這個法都一直維持在5%好那我想這個都是解方那我自己也要想辦法所以呢我也有提案修法像這個自來水法的12條之2我們就去把"},{"start":298.473,"end":322.602,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":322.922,"end":334.315,"text":"您我剛剛講了這麼多您來自業界這20年水資源的珍稀程度不可同日而語啊那您覺得我們該不該去做修法"},{"start":335.505,"end":360.702,"text":"我想我支持這個委員您的這個看法是那我也感同身受是那但是呢這個具體的內容我不是那麼瞭解是那是不是容我回去跟我的同仁我們大家再研究以後好那我是希望說至少把它試算出來然後研究一下然後來報告一下各位的態度好不好部長您的態度至少目前是肯定的是支持的嘛對不對是謝謝"},{"start":361.542,"end":361.802,"text":"主席"},{"start":379.651,"end":394.007,"text":"我們的台電說電纜地下化比例已經高達44.3%高於日韓了但是我知道的是元香也會來跟我抱怨啊我們也要地下電纜化你看一下這個照片有沒有"},{"start":394.628,"end":420.323,"text":"有的部落裡面這個像話嗎對但是我好像都等不到勒我就不曉得說這個母樹到底是來自於全台哪一些區域啊我們原鄉也很想因為我跟您報告部長我接到好幾個案例都是電線有的不是110伏特哦220伏特哦有的時候是裸露有的時候是電線掉下來到水溝去洗個手他就"},{"start":420.723,"end":420.963,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":440.7,"end":441.901,"text":"委員提到的這個部分是不是請臺電跟水利署"},{"start":471.356,"end":473.062,"text":"一個禮拜內可以嗎?把資料給吳委員"}]}},{"id":"153644","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153644","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9874eb3ed448b353f0155b271690f57e8efc6f3e651eb00659d58348d2a66612b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:38:04 - 12:47:44","影片長度":"00:09:40","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:38:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:47:44+08:00","duration":580,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1248,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時37分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請內政部部長、法務部政次以及司法院刑事廳的代表，副廳長或者是法官要上來都可以。"],["主席：請內政部部長、法務部政次及司法院的代表。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，因為時間的關係不一一問候，我直接切入正題。詐騙對臺灣人民所造成的傷害，我相信不用再贅述了，從事前的預防到事後的追懲都很重要。今天我們提出打詐專法，我非常重視一個面向，不管是台灣民眾黨在一開始的時候舉辦的公聽會，以及我接下來到刑事警察局、調查局去拜訪，希望他們能夠說明在打詐作業當中他們所面臨的困境，其中一個大家共同的心聲是臺灣對詐欺犯的處罰真的太輕了，導致在臺版柬埔寨案當中，那個主嫌藍道三十二個加重詐欺罪，卻是一天的牢都沒有坐！三十二個加重詐欺罪，一天的牢都沒有坐，這件事情到底怎麼發生的？我們的司法體系是怎麼樣把一個小弟養成首腦？從小弟變成首腦，三十二個加重詐欺罪，結果竟然一天的牢都沒有坐！今天我看到你們針對高額財產的損害加重刑責，在立法體例上我支持。第二個部分，詐欺獲取的財物達一千萬以上的加重處罰嘛，到一億以上的時候應不應該也要加重處罰？請教部長，到一千萬以上加重處罰，到一億以上要不要加更重？部長贊不贊成？"],["劉部長世芳：我覺得這是一個很好的方向，但是可能要請主責部會來回應比較好。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。第四十四條規定犯刑法第三百三十九條之四第一項第二款之罪，就是三人結夥去犯法，如果有其他各款的話，加重其刑，最高度及最低度同加之，這是你們基本上面的設計，我們等一下來看這個條文。當我們看完第四十三條跟第四十四條以後，我下面有個問題，部長你先回去休息沒關係，因為接下來可能是法律專業的事情，不好意思讓你站在上面。","請教法務部政次，甲乙丙三個人共同透過網際網路散布「假投資、真詐騙」的訊息，這可以說是現在詐騙實務上面的常態。其中導致一個人A陷於錯誤，交付新臺幣一千五百萬，也就是超過一千萬了嘛，依照你們目前打詐專法的設計，你要用第幾條追訴處罰？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，就是第四十四條第一項第一款，它是複合性的。"],["黃委員國昌：第四十三條有沒有用？"],["徐次長錫祥：第四十三條的話，應該是……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我直接講問題，關於你們所規範的第四十三條、第四十四條，我現在請教你的是第四十三條跟第四十四條的競合。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，這是法條競合。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以你要用哪一條？"],["徐次長錫祥：會用第四十三條。"],["黃委員國昌：你就回去用第四十三條了嘛，那不對啊！根據第四十三條，你要給他加重處罰，提高法定刑則，罪責是被駭的金額嘛，對不對？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第四十四條針對的是犯罪的手法，如果有第三百三十九條之四那四款，有三人以上犯的再plus其中三款的事由，那你就要加重其刑對吧？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第四十三條跟第四十四條加重其刑的法律理由不一樣嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在出現的狀況是當你被駭的金額超過一千萬，他使用的犯罪手法又是第三百三十九條之四那四款的複合型態，被駭的金額超過一千萬，犯罪的手法用了兩種以上，這種競合的型態你怎麼會只單純回到第四十三條？那第四十四條要考慮的因素不是不見了嗎？次長，我有沒有說錯？"],["徐次長錫祥：關於立法過程，我是不是請司長補充一下？"],["黃委員國昌：我不需要知道立法過程，我只需要知道你們現在所端出來的法案到了檯面上以後，假設今天立法院三讀通過了這個條文，第四十三條跟第四十四條的競合你們要怎麼處理，這是我的問題。"],["徐次長錫祥：按照委員剛才所說的例子，他一加重的話會到十年六個月啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["徐次長錫祥：所以我們就會回到……"],["黃委員國昌：第四十三條？"],["徐次長錫祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：然後第四十四條就不用評價了？"],["徐次長錫祥：回來就是第四十四條……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，你跳來跳去的，到底是第四十三條還是第四十四條？還是第四十三條加第四十四條？"],["徐次長錫祥：法條競合，那我們從重就是用第四十四條。"],["黃委員國昌：第四十四條？"],["徐次長錫祥：是，第四十四條。"],["黃委員國昌：你們再回去想一想啦！我知道你們在推這個專法的時候時間壓力很大，因為我去刑事警察局、去調查局的時候，我得到的消息是都還在研擬當中，我知道你們時間的壓力很趕，我也沒有怪你們，但問題是什麼？當出現這種法條競合狀態的時候，一個是被駭的金額，一個是犯罪的手法，兩個考慮完全不一樣嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，不一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：當被駭的金額增加，犯罪手法又是複合性的型態，這個時候我們在整個刑法的理論上就應該要更加重其刑嘛！我這樣的說法次長贊不贊成？"],["徐次長錫祥：贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：贊成嘛！好，今天我有草擬一個修正動議，台灣民眾黨內政委員會的委員與中國國民黨的委員，大家都有支持，等一下審法案的時候，針對第四十三條跟第四十四條競合的型態，再請法務部及司法院的法官們表示好的見解。","第二個，這是我之前質詢的時候一直在問的事情，麻煩主席再給我一分鐘可以嗎？"],["主席：好。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝。我一直在說的是以前立法者說加重其刑二分之一，針對加重其刑二分之一，本來刑法總則就說最高、最低度都要同加嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：結果搞了半天以後，只有最高的再加，最低的只要多一點就可以了，只多一個月，都在法官的射程範圍當中，這個我之前在司法及法制委員會已經質詢過非常多次。你們現在為了處理這個問題，所以在第四十四條第二項特別把它列出來，也就是「前項加重其刑，其最高度及最低度同加之」，我知道你們的立法意圖是希望說最低的最少也要加二分之一，不要像以前一樣只加一個月，大家沒辦法接受嘛！我現在的問題是，當刑法第六十七條相同的文字已經出現過了，但我們法官在解釋上還是認為加一個月就夠，你們為什麼會認為相同的文字在專法當中再重新寫一次，法官適用法律的結果會有所不同？請司法院說明一下。"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，這個應該是不一樣的，「加重其刑二分之一」與「加重其刑至二分之一」是不一樣的，如果是加重其刑二分之一，就是一定要加到二分之一……"],["黃委員國昌：最高、最低都是一樣嘛！"],["陳副廳長信旗：對，都是要加到二分之一。"],["黃委員國昌：這個非常重要。因為未來我們在其他的特別法規當中，包括兒少性剝削條例，包括其他的法規有加重其刑到二分之一，我們立法者全部把它改成加重其刑二分之一，按照今天司法院的說法，是不是最低的刑度也一定會加二分之一？我需要一個肯定的答案，因為實際上面法院判決的結果是不是這個樣子，大家都充滿了疑惑，所以請司法院……主席站起來了，最後回答一個問題，所以你今天的說法是，只是因為文字上面呈現的不同，如果今天立法者包括了在兒少權益保護法，包括在性剝削條例等等，我們寫的不是加重其刑至二分之一，是加重其刑二分之一的話，最低的刑度就一定會加二分之一以上，是不是這樣？"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，是的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們等一下，接下來在審議法條的時候，我們再用具體的判決來檢驗司法院的法官今天在上面講的是不是對的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","下一位林思銘委員、林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","各位同仁，我們中午就不休息，繼續開會。","登記發言的委員除不在場之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。鍾佳濱委員、李柏毅委員、羅智強委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.36846875,"end":1.3303437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.56659375,"end":4.097843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.35096875,"end":5.6334687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.64596875,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.86096875,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.10096875,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.87721875,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.349718750000001,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.47096875,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.21659375,"end":31.620968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.447843750000004,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.612218750000004,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.345968750000004,"end":37.814093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.42159375,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.07534375,"end":42.134093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.12971875,"end":43.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.10846875,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.48784375,"end":48.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.407218750000006,"end":50.790968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.60096875,"end":55.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":59.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.71784375,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.40034375,"end":68.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.48846875000001,"end":72.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.71159375,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.99409375,"end":76.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.77409375,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.79909375000001,"end":84.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.42284375,"end":87.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.01721875000001,"end":90.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.88596875,"end":95.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.06659375000001,"end":99.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.57221875,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.08659375,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.95034375,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.09784375000001,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.13971875,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.30346875000001,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.61034375000001,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.96846875,"end":131.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.38596875000002,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.19159375,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.58784375000002,"end":137.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.62971875,"end":189.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.04346875000002,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.43909375,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.62409375000001,"end":204.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.72034375,"end":214.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.03534375,"end":216.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.21221875,"end":218.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.92909375000002,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.82346875000002,"end":223.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.09721875000002,"end":224.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.41346875000002,"end":227.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.79284375,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.50471875000002,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.98346875000001,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.05846875000003,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.26096875,"end":265.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.97659375,"end":269.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.59221875000003,"end":272.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.30909375000005,"end":279.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.56096875000003,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.79659375,"end":285.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.51346875,"end":293.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.13346875,"end":289.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.55534375,"end":290.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.55096875000004,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.04846875000004,"end":308.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.14971875000003,"end":293.75721875},{"speaker"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所以你要用哪一條會用43條你就回去用43條了嘛那不對啊你43條基本上加重你要給他加重處罰提高法定性的罪責是他"},{"start":235.563,"end":246.047,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":250.169,"end":265.104,"text":"對吧 是那43條跟44條加重期刑的法律理由不一樣嘛 是我現在出現的狀況是當你被害的金額超過一千萬他使用的犯罪手法又是339條知識四款的複合形態"},{"start":267.025,"end":282.835,"text":"被害的金額超過一千萬犯罪的手法用了兩種以上那這種競合的形態那你怎麼會只單純回到44、43條那44條要考慮的因素不是不見了嗎部長、不、不好意思次長我有沒有說錯呃"},{"start":287.543,"end":304.509,"text":"第四、加重到二分之一回到十。立法過程我是不是請司長補充一下。沒有,我不需要知道立法過程,我只需要知道你們現在所端出來的法案,到檯面上了以後,我們今天假設立法院三讀通過了這個條文,43條跟44條的競合你們要怎麼處理,這是我的問題。我知道。"},{"start":311.55,"end":328.16,"text":"那個按照委員剛才的例子的話他一加重的話會到10年6個月啦所以呢所以我們就會回到43條對44條就不用評價了44才對啦回來就是44條不好意思啦你跳來跳去的到底是43還是44還是43加44法條進合那我們重重就是44條"},{"start":339.878,"end":361.21,"text":"就是14條?是,44條。你們齁,再回去想一想啦。我知道,你們在推這個專法的時候時間壓力很大嘛。因為我去刑事警察局、去調查局的時候我得到的消息是都還在眼裡當中嘛。我知道你們時間的壓力很趕,我也沒有怪你們。但問題是什麼?"},{"start":362.19,"end":389.478,"text":"你在出現這種法條競合的狀態的時候一個是被害的金額一個是犯罪的手法兩個考慮完全不一樣嘛是當被害的金額增加犯罪的手法又用是複合性的形態的時候這個時候我們在整個刑法的理論上那就應該要更加重其刑嘛我這樣的說法次長在不贊成啊贊成贊成嘛好我們今天吼今天吼我有朝你一個修正動議我們台灣民眾黨黨"},{"start":392.578,"end":415.977,"text":"內政委員會的委員跟最後國民黨委員大家都有支持等下在審法案的時候針對43條跟44條競合的形態的時候再請法務部跟我們司法院的法官們能夠表示好的見解第二個這個是我之前在質詢的時候我一直在問的事情主席再一分鐘可以嗎"},{"start":418.635,"end":437.313,"text":"我之前一直在說啦就是我們以前立法者在說加重情形二分之一加重情形二分之一本來刑法總則就說最高最低度都要同加嘛結果搞了半天以後只有最高再加最低的只要多一點就可以了"},{"start":438.069,"end":460.161,"text":"多一個月多一個月都在法官的射程範圍當中這我之前在社會法治委員會的時候我已經質詢過非常多次好那你們現在為了處理這個問題所以你們在44條第二項的時候特別把它列出來前項加重情形最高最低度同加之嘛我知道你們的立法的意圖是希望說"},{"start":461.101,"end":489.85,"text":"最低的也要最少加二分之一嘛不要像以前一樣只加一個月大家沒辦法接受嘛但我現在的問題是說當刑法67條相同的文字已經出現過了但我們法官在解釋上還是認為加一個月就夠你們為什麼會認為相同的文字在專法當中再重新寫一次法官適用法律的結果會有所不同來請一下司法院"},{"start":491.516,"end":513.231,"text":"保安委員這個應該是不一樣的加重期刑二分之一跟加重期刑至二分之一是不一樣的如果是加重期刑二分之一就是一定要加到二分之一最高最低都是一樣嘛所以未來沒有這個非常重要因為未來我們在其他的特別法規當中包括兒少性剝削的條例"},{"start":514.372,"end":533.441,"text":"包括其他的法規有加重期刑到二分之一我們全部立法者喔全部把它改成加重期刑二分之一按照今天司法院的說法是不是就是最低的刑度也會一定會加二分之一我需要一個肯定的答案我需要一個肯定的答案因為喔因為"},{"start":535.151,"end":549.911,"text":"實際上面法院判決的結果是不是這個樣子大家都充滿了疑惑所以請司法院主席站起來了最後回答一個問題所以你今天說法是只是因為文字上面呈現的不同如果"},{"start":550.612,"end":567.065,"text":"今天立法者包括了在《兒少權益保護法》包括了在《性剝削條例》等等我們寫的不是加重其刑至二分之一喔是加重其刑二分之一的話最低的刑度就一定會加二分之一以上是不是這樣"},{"start":568.035,"end":568.215,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"153643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98ebd3304636052256155b271690f57e8efc6f3e651eb00659828b4faf1e99e5f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:31:03 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Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:31:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:37:19+08:00","duration":376,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1233,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時31分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，我們再請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：楊委員你好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。打詐讓我們很憂心，政府成立打詐國家隊，打詐四法也一直在研擬，但是我們似乎發覺口號越多，案件越多，甚至連看守所、監獄裡頭所增加的人大多是以詐欺犯為主，讓我們很憂心，這是從末端來看整個過程，那這怎麼辦呢？謝謝今天主席的安排，直接來討論打詐四法要怎麼去做，我們可以看到，從111年6月份實施打詐綱領開始，我們發覺到這個問題的嚴重性，除了在你們所說的宣導教育面堵詐，然後從電信系統再來阻詐，追查贓款的流向，再來是懲詐，也就是偵查打擊面。我們希望刑罰增加，但是抓到了這個人，他卻沒錢，我抓到人，檢警調很辛苦的抓到了，但是他沒錢，對於民眾來講是一大損失，抓到了他沒錢也沒用。監獄的人越來越多是詐欺犯，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，在111年我們全面認知到這個問題的嚴重性，112年開始推動人口販運的防制、洗錢防制法、個人的個資保護、證券投資信託及顧問法，這一些法律訂出來，就是為了因應目前社會所需要。我們也看到你們所提出的1.5版以減害為主，本席認為這非常消極。針對你們的三面減政策，也就是減少接觸、減少誤信、減少損害，甚至剛剛部長所回答的，要讓志工到偏鄉去告訴這一些歐巴桑、歐吉桑，讓他知道打詐專線165怎麼打。數位部也努力在推動，預計要有專案出來，app很快就會出來。在這樣的情況下，本下還是要請教部長，目前的社會面向是非常非常的嚴謹，無孔不入，我們要怎麼辦？"],["劉部長世芳：在預防面的部分，其實真的是要全民一起來防止才有用，相信楊委員也非常清楚，不是只有偏鄉，包括在很多都會地區，尤其是善用網路的人，他們都會接收到這種詐欺或詐騙的電話，或是網路或是其他LINE的訊息，所以我們推出新的詐欺四法，最主要就是我們的行政系統怎麼樣利用法律授權的部分，形成一個好的聯防網路，這才是我們目前最大的重點。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你所講的還有一個重點，你有注意到嗎？所有的系統，比如說警政署的刑案資訊系統、智慧分析的決策等支援的系統，還有你們自己165反詐騙系統的平臺，這一些資料如果流出去，那更嚴重喔！有沒有圍堵？"],["劉部長世芳：這邊的資料會流出去？不會啊！我們只是收案的窗口啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你新聞都沒在看啊！所以我提出這一點，AI的系統可以去正面偵防詐騙，但是它也有一個反向，所以建議部長，當你在思考問題的時候，要思考根源從哪裡來？您剛剛一再回答說怎麼可能會流出去……"],["劉部長世芳：不是這個意思……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有流出去啊，社會新聞你知道啊！所以在這樣的情況之下，就誠如你說的，我們希望大家一起來、全民一起來全面的圍堵，這樣才是真正的全面圍堵，您的看法呢？警政署要不要說一說？"],["張署長榮興：剛剛委員所提的不管是我們的e化、刑案的資料系統或者165，這些都是我們公務的資料，這絕對嚴禁流出，流出去就違法了，所以這部分我們會非常嚴謹，絕對不會把我們的這些資料流出去。未來打詐四法通過之後，各部會會協同讓打詐這件事讓人民有感。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，因為警察很辛苦，所以我要跟部長說的是希望你們正面、反面你都要去思考，因為在你還沒就任部長以前，我相信你擔任民意代表的時候，你也認知到這種情況真的很普遍，民眾很傷腦筋，所以我們也希望藉由你在行政及民意基礎上面都非常的充足，可以進行正面、反面的思考，讓民眾真正有感，要不然我看到連監獄、看守所的人數增加都是以詐騙犯、詐欺犯為主，民眾情何以堪呢？所以我們一起加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","下一位請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員不在。","請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:24:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:30:50+08:00","duration":371,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1217,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時24分）謝謝主席！請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好！"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好！部長，今天就詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，本席來自地方，其實我們服務的選民有非常多是被詐騙，最近我們也碰到一位，他在接到電話說他的小孩需要投資，所以要請這位長輩到銀行去轉帳，他還跟他說他小孩的電話丟掉了，所以就給他一支新的電話，結果這個長輩也信，然後就直接到銀行去匯款；他匯款時銀行也很機警，他們覺得這個長輩可能是碰到詐騙，所以他們要回撥問這個錢是要匯給誰，他就說這是我兒子的電話，然後他們就打這個電話，其實這個電話是詐騙集團的電話，錢就這樣匯出去了。我覺得目前詐騙手段真的是推陳出新，從以前用電話說你的小孩被抓了或是怎樣，到現在是網路詐騙真的非常多，我們在網路上面也看到很多都是利用名人的肖像來詐騙投資，我想請教，其實很多民眾都覺得政府沒有很用力的在抓詐騙，我想請教部長，未來我們有了這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例、打詐四法之後，對於一般民眾會有什麼樣的保障？或是一般民眾可以再透過什麼樣的機制，也許他的錢匯出去之後，是不是可以再追回來？這個打詐四法完成之後，民眾是不是可以更有保障？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝黃委員！黃委員，你所碰到的狀況我們也都知道，第一個就是未來的打詐中心，我們的165反詐騙諮詢專線是二十四小時的，因為有一些老人家不曉得165怎麼打，所以現在我們可能要拜託民政系統、警政系統或者是宗教團體的志工系統，儘量到比較偏鄉的地區去宣傳──你如果有事情，165要先打看看。讓他能夠識詐，這個很重要，而不是因為人性被詐騙，說你的兒子、你的孫子有什麼狀況，就趕快把錢匯出去，這是第一點。","第二點，關於你提到所謂名人的部分，因為他就是投放在我們的網路系統上面，現在數位部有更快的方式可以把這樣子的平臺下架，現在我請數位部跟黃委員解釋一下。"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，目前數位部對於防堵網路詐騙的方法，一方面是尋求法律的支援，另外一方面是用科技的方法，我們希望用科技的方法每天去掃瞄，也就是用AI的方法去掃瞄網路上有多少的詐騙，依照資安院目前的作法，每天可以掃描到五千多則疑似詐騙的廣告，我們經過人工過濾以後，會直接送給大型的網路平臺，像是LINE或者是facebook，我們現在還需要法律上的支援，因為我們通報給這些平臺以後，他們下架的速度太慢了，因為對他們來講，這不是他們增加營收的地方，而是他們增加支出的地方，我們希望能夠有法源的依據，我們可以跟他們勸說，請他們再縮短處理的時間。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果一般民眾在網路上看到我剛剛所講的名人投資的網站或網頁，他要怎麼確定這是真實的或者是詐騙的手段？因為他上面會寫請加我的LINE或是加我的FB之類的，像這樣子的話，一般民眾要怎麼去確定這是真實的或者是詐騙？"],["林次長宜敬：現在數發部正在規劃一個打詐通報查詢網，可能是一個app的形式，我們希望在三個月到六個月之內能上線，以後當民眾遇到可疑的詐騙訊息或網址的時候，就直接可以copy and paste，也就是直接貼上我們那個網站，然後去查詢到底是不是疑似詐騙，包括政府處理到什麼程度、是不是已經確定為詐騙、是不是已經通知網路廣告平臺、是不是已經移除，這部分我們都會讓民眾有一個地方可以去通報、可以去查詢。"],["黃委員秀芳：在這個還沒有完成之前，像現在一般民眾如果看到的話，他要怎麼處理？"],["林次長宜敬：在那個完成之前，我們有兩個部分的作法：一方面我們還是跟LINE及facebook這些平臺努力的溝通，希望他們縮短處理的時間。另外，我們已經成立一個名人及公眾人物打詐的通報專用email address，如果遇到這種詐騙，他可以跟我們講，我們馬上就會轉通知LINE跟facebook，要求他們立即處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。我是不是可以請教部長，因為地方的警局、分局或是派出所，他們都會有一個治安座談，到各個社區去做宣導，未來我們也希望治安宣導到每個社區應該還要針對詐騙的部分進行宣導，詐騙手法推陳出新，我覺得應該也要由警政單位這邊著手，讓一般民眾能夠更加瞭解。"],["劉部長世芳：委員的建議非常好，我們一定來遵照，而且我們會把案例告訴這些偏鄉的老人家，讓他們知道怎麼樣可以防範。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員。","下一位請羅智強委員、羅智強委員、羅智強委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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請部長。黃委員好。部長好。今天就這個詐欺犯罪危害防制條例。本席來自地方,其實我們這個服務的選民非常多,就是被詐騙。其實我們最近也碰到一位"},{"start":23.053,"end":38.744,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":52.273,"end":64.041,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":82.453,"end":100.818,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":106.8,"end":125.877,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":129.421,"end":151.096,"text":"謝謝黃委員黃委員您所碰到的狀況我們也都有知道第一個就是說未來的打詐中心我們的165反詐騙諮詢專線是24小時的所以有一些老人家他不曉得165怎麼打所以我現在就是可能我們要拜託民政系統還有警政系統或者是宗教團體的志工系統盡量到很多比較偏鄉地區去宣傳你若有事情165要先看一看這是一個"},{"start":155.839,"end":156.199,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":182.717,"end":210.898,"text":"是,報告委員我們目前數位部一方面是我們對於那個詐騙網路詐騙的方法一方面是尋求法律的支援另外一方面是用科技的方法那我們希望說用那個科技的方法每天去掃描用AI的方法去掃描說那個網路上有多少的詐騙那依照我們資安院目前的做法每天可以掃描到5000多則的疑似詐騙的廣告那我們經過人工過濾以後會直接送給那個"},{"start":212.199,"end":237.249,"text":"大型的網路平台像是LINE或者是像那個FACEBOOK那我們現在還需要法律上的支援就是因為我們通報給這些平台以後他們下架的速度太慢了因為對他們來講這不是他們增加營收的地方而是他們增加支出的地方那我們希望說有這個法源的依據我們可以跟他們勸說請他們再縮短這個處理的時間是好那如果說一般民眾在網路上看到"},{"start":237.669,"end":241.652,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案》案。 ﹝審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":259.286,"end":274.625,"text":"是,我們現在疏發部正在規劃一個打詐通報查詢網那是會可能是一個APP的形式我們希望在3個月到6個月之內能上線那以後當民眾遇到一個可疑的詐騙的訊息或網址的時候就直接可以"},{"start":275.206,"end":281.67,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":299.5,"end":324.865,"text":"在那個之前我們有兩個部分的做法一方面我們就是還是努力的跟那個LINE還有那個Facebook這樣的平台努力跟他們溝通希望他們縮短他們處理的時間另外我們已經成立一個就是名人或公眾人物的那個打詐的通報專用email address他遇到這種詐騙他可以跟我們講我們馬上就會轉通知LINE跟Facebook要求他們立即處理"},{"start":325.425,"end":328.887,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜與警政委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":357.46,"end":364.304,"text":"委員的建議非常好,我們一定來遵照,而且我們把案例告訴這些偏鄉的老人家,讓他們知道怎麼樣可以防範。"}]}},{"id":"153641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98bcf9dab2baca4c35155b271690f57e8efc6f3e651eb00659e7348e3b34fc23a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:20:12 - 12:24:27","影片長度":"00:04:15","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:20:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:24:27+08:00","duration":255,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1198,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時20分）謝謝主席！請部長和數發部次長。"],["主席：請部長和次長，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：部長、次長，我想我們都樂見打詐法律能夠儘快通過，當然，民眾黨也有提出版本。我今天想要跟2位就教的是，目前我們做了非常多的限制，比如金融機構第三方支付、電信業者、網路廣告平臺業、電商業和網路連線遊戲業，這些都有被納入管理，但是部長也知道，現在詐欺無所不在，而且層出不窮，到目前為止，110年LINE的詐欺占網路詐欺案件的20%。也就是說，LINE是通訊平臺，它單純的只是個人跟個人間的聯絡，但是不同年齡層使用LINE通訊軟體的受騙方式，未滿18歲的幾乎都是假愛情、假交友；18到60歲的都是投資詐欺；60歲以上的都是猜猜我是誰，所以LINE的詐欺已經占網路詐欺達20%的數量。我想問一下次長和部長，假設我們今天通過打詐專法，那我們能不能處理這樣子的詐騙行為？這樣子的業者？或這樣子的詐騙行徑？"],["林次長宜敬：OK，有關LINE的詐騙這部分，我們現在……"],["黃委員珊珊：它是不是這個法律可以處罰的對象？"],["林次長宜敬：是，它是可以處罰的對象。"],["黃委員珊珊：什麼樣的狀況可以處罰它？"],["林次長宜敬：如果這個訊息有明顯的詐騙訊息的話，我們可以依照這個法令來要求他們儘快下架。"],["黃委員珊珊：它只是個平臺，它會被你處罰嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：第一個，如果我們發現這是詐騙，我們通知它，那它一定要處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，但現在的問題是，很多被害人第一個時間發現LINE的帳號被盜用，但是詐騙集團利用客服的下班時間或週末時來行騙，所以被盜帳號的人沒有辦法聯絡上客服，警方也沒有通報處理的機制可以取回控制帳號。也就是說，詐騙集團幾乎都是利用這段時間來詐騙被害人的親友或借錢，所以我現在要問的是，當然我們很希望包山又包海，但是這麼多的業者，其實他們可能都是境外業者，所以需要我們政府去找他們，針對剛剛講的，在下班時間、在找不到客服的時間、在沒辦法停權的時間，這些時間的詐騙行為其實是非常可觀的，次長你有什麼方法？還是部長，我們有什麼方法可以把這部分也納入打詐的對象之一？"],["林次長宜敬：是，委員說的沒錯，現在詐騙集團都是利用時間差的方式，就是利用通報和下架間的時間來造成傷害，而且把被詐騙的人轉到我們都沒有辦法可以找到的地方，所以我們現在除了會用法律的手段之外，我們也會利用科技的手段、利用自動判別……"],["黃委員珊珊：政府要跟這些業者溝通，這段時間他們應該要有一個機制，要它不要有時間差，這才是你們該做的事嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果可能的話，部長，你知道我的意思嘛！既然我們沒有辦法在這種私訊的場所阻止人家，但是我們要如何讓被害人在第一時間內就可以報案和做相關的處理？否則他幾乎沒辦法停，然後他的親友又一直被騙，他們都是利用這種方式讓他的親友沒有任何警覺，而且錢可能很少，就幾萬元、幾千元，然後他就被騙了，等他發現已經來不及，去報案也來不及了，好嗎？我覺得數發部和內政部必須要把這些大的社群平臺納入這一次的管理，因為這次幾乎都沒有管到他們，好嗎？謝謝部長、謝謝次長。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢。","下一位請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.4822187500000001,"end":2.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":4.418468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.77284375,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.058468750000003,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.28534375,"end":19.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.399093750000002,"end":22.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.57596875,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.64284375,"end":32.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.190343750000004,"end":35.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.10971875,"end":41.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.353468750000005,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.12409375,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.71846875000001,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.56096875,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.89284375000001,"end":76.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.45346875,"end":79.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.47846875,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.58721875,"end":87.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.94971875,"end":91.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.06721875000001,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.99909375,"end":98.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.05346875000001,"end":100.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.33596875,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.42846875000001,"end":109.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.79034375,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.81096875,"end":112.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.48596875000001,"end":120.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.27409375,"end":119.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.04596875000001,"end":122.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.03284375000001,"end":126.57659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.71159375,"end":129.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":135.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.30096875,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.36284375,"end":148.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.48034375,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.14659375000002,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.87159375000002,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.24159375000002,"end":168.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.10159375,"end":171.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.85221875000002,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.76659375,"end":190.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.28909375,"end":184.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.12346875,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.29909375000003,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.35721875000002,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.67346875,"end":209.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.44034375,"end":223.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.81034375000002,"end":225.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.66659375,"end":227.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.86909375000002,"end":225.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.68721875000003,"end":234.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.93096875,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.77659375000002,"end":252.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.32471875000002,"end":254.80971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.94471875000002,"end":254.97846875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.37,"end":2.439,"text":"部長以及書發部的次長"},{"start":8.827,"end":32.023,"text":"黃媛豪市部長、市長我想我們都很樂見打詐的法律盡快的來通過那當然民眾黨也有提版本我今天想跟兩位就教的就是目前我們做了非常多的限制比如說金融機構、第三方支付還有電信業者、網路廣告平台業電商業跟網路連線的遊戲業這些有被納入管理"},{"start":36.246,"end":64.024,"text":"但是現在部長也知道我們現在的詐欺是無所不在而且層出不窮目前為止110年的LINE詐欺佔網路詐欺案件的高達20%也就是說LINE是一個通訊平台它單純的只是個人跟個人之間的聯絡但是不同年齡層使用LINE通訊軟體的受騙方式未滿18歲的幾乎都是假愛情假交友"},{"start":64.804,"end":87.148,"text":"十八到六十歲的都是投資詐欺。六十歲以上的都是猜猜我是誰。所以賴詐欺其實已經成為網絡詐欺裡面百分之二十的數量。我想問一下次長跟部長。我們今天通過假設通過這個打詐專法能不能夠處理這樣子的詐騙行為。這樣子的業者或這樣子的詐騙行徑。"},{"start":93.111,"end":110.341,"text":"關於Unlined詐騙這個部分我們現在在不在這個法律可以處罰的對象是可以在處罰的對象裡面在怎麼樣的狀況可以處罰他如果說他這個訊息裡面有明顯的詐騙訊息的話我們可以依照這個法令就是要求他們儘快把它下架他只是個平台他會被你處罰嗎"},{"start":112.604,"end":112.904,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":130.259,"end":143.186,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺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12:19:58","影片長度":"00:05:50","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:14:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:19:58+08:00","duration":350,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1178,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（12時14分）謝謝主席，有請刑事廳副廳長，謝謝。"],["主席：請刑事廳。"],["陳副廳長信旗：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。我快速的，因為我覺得今天這個有很多事情，我知道今天要逐條討論，本來有些東西我是逐條討論時要講的，但是我下午要去另外一個逐條討論，所以沒有辦法參加。我覺得這有2個問題，因為打詐專法牽涉的層面太廣，第一個問題是第三百三十九條之四，第一個，我直接用講的，因為簡報跑得有點慢，第三百三十九條之四本身就是加重詐欺，現在打詐專法是三人以上，加上利用境外機房詐騙者再加重二分之一，它等於是加重了2次二分之一，當然有2個疑點，第一個，在法定刑上面連續加重2次二分之一到底合不合宜？這是第一個。","第二個，3人以上這件事情，譬如說強盜或竊盜很多時候會有3人以上，因為它對身體有一定的危險性等等之類的。加重詐欺一開始就設定3人以上，我覺得本來就要打一個問號，這一次打詐專法又把這個跟機房2個加起來，這個看起來好像是要對應組織型犯罪，但是根據研究，如果是中國那邊的詐騙，組織型的很多，但是臺灣這邊的詐騙是組合型比較多，組合型就是可能一年就解散的那種詐騙集團。一年就解散的那種詐騙集團，它跟三人以上本來要加重的這個理由，其實有點不太合，所以我這邊建議，我不知道司法院的意見，就是在逐條討論時我們要不要稍微考慮一下，連續加重2次二分之一的問題和背後的理由到底充不充分？如果可以的話，逐條時各位能不能討論看看？這是第一個，就是加重二分之一這個部分，等一下逐條討論時，司法院本來的意見是怎樣？"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，我們認為這邊並沒有連續加重，因為它是刑分的特別規定。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是第三百三十九條之四本身就是加重詐欺罪了。"],["陳副廳長信旗：第三百三十九條之四本身也是刑分的獨立規定，它並不是加重其刑的規定。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，它不是加重其刑，但是第三百三十九條之四已經比第三百三十九條更重了。我舉個例子，譬如說假設他今天只犯第三百三十九條，他沒有到加重詐欺，但是他詐騙的金額符合這次的打詐專法，因為他不是3人以上，所以他不會落入右邊這邊的加重，但是這個時候就會形成一個問題，因為按照原本的刑分規定，他沒有落入第三百三十九條之四，他就不會到這邊來，他只有5年以下，但是相較於這一個，只要是3人以上利用境外，他馬上就要加重二分之一，這會變成他犯罪的程度；如果是單純的第三百三十九條，然後金額又高的狀況，他反而又不會到這邊來，那就變成一邊加太多、一邊又不衡平，不衡平的這個事實，逐條時必須要告訴大家，不然這時就會有輕重失衡的問題。","前面有委員提到量刑的問題，我覺得這個可能不用到量刑，而是這邊的規定要思考一下。"],["陳副廳長信旗：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：這是第一個。第二個是假釋，我直接用講的，因為簡報跑得有點慢，有關減刑的規定，因為我們希望他能夠自首，對不對？所以它有減刑等等之類的規定。但是我們在假釋這邊，因為我們是用三振法案這個精神，這邊我有一個建議，因為今天假釋這件事情，到底它是該假釋？還是不要假釋？重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛！所以他在監獄的表現跟他今天到底是犯了幾次的詐欺罪，這應該是分開的兩件事情，這是第一個。","第二個，我們都已經設計這樣的減刑規定，但是第3次時他一定不會想要來講，因為按照這樣的方式，他會落入假釋裡面的三振法案，一旦他進來的話，你設計的那個減刑規定第三次時就沒有作用，我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的立場，但是顯然的，在這邊利用類似之前強制治療的這種三振法案精神，其實它並不符合我們想要打詐的這件事情，不知道司法院這邊的意見如何？"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，畢竟假釋這部分是參考美國三振法案這個法制，這個法制到底妥不妥當？是不是適合？我覺得這各有說法，只是這次我們考量到，如果是一般電信詐欺的話，的確他再犯的可能性比較高，在再犯可能性比較高的情形下，他達到假釋門檻時是不是就可以假釋？還是要如同法務部所提出來的這個三振條款的規定？的確，這個有斟酌的餘地，但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為美國三振法案最初的精神是量刑加重，並不是假釋這邊，是我們移植時把它放到譬如強制治療等等之類的。"],["陳副廳長信旗：因為刑法第七十七條也有類似的規定。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是再犯可能性這件事情，譬如他在獄中的表現等等之類的，它是綜合做判斷，所以我們不能夠預設立場，因為這等於是你一開始就預設他再犯的可能性，然後改變假釋的規定，其實這個在法理上聽起來是有點不通的，所以我覺得逐條討論時這件事情可能要考慮一下，因為我今天沒有辦法參與逐條討論，所以我希望這2件事情司法院能夠注意一下。謝謝！"],["陳副廳長信旗：瞭解，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.7097187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.755968750000001,"end":6.730343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.15596875,"end":10.425968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.19784375,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.30596875,"end":28.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.410343750000003,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.367843750000002,"end":31.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.86534375,"end":58.705343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.95846875,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.38909375,"end":114.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.73409375000001,"end":124.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.32784375000001,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.06159375000001,"end":128.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.52971875,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.38971875000001,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":137.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.96721875,"end":137.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.98409375,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.27096875,"end":138.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.67596875,"end":145.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.83596875,"end":141.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.19846875000002,"end":143.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.57784375,"end":159.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.55034375,"end":202.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.91909375,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.03284375,"end":204.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.43784375,"end":211.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.87971875000002,"end":236.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.87159375000002,"end":270.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.97596875,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.96284375,"end":278.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.85659375,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.41721875,"end":292.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.99784375,"end":295.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.59659375,"end":298.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.68471875,"end":301.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.62096875000003,"end":304.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.01284375,"end":306.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.75096875,"end":310.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.20221875000004,"end":308.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.37909375000004,"end":319.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.33971875000003,"end":322.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.85846875000004,"end":321.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.25909375000003,"end":346.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.65659375,"end":344.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.77846875,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.16659375,"end":347.68971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.29,"end":2.215,"text":"謝謝主席。有請這個行事廳副廳長。謝謝。好。行事廳。"},{"start":10.182,"end":11.202,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":33.902,"end":58.408,"text":"好 第一個齁 我先直接用講的 好 跑得有點慢就是說 這一個 因為3394它本身就是一個加重詐欺啦齁那現在打詐專法這一邊呢 就是三人以上再加上利用境外激防詐騙這邊呢 又再加重二分之一啦它等於是加重了兩次二分之一 那我覺得這當然有兩個疑點第一個就是 在法定刑上面連續加重兩次二分之一到底合不合宜齁 這第一個第二個就是呢 因為三人以上這件事情"},{"start":59.088,"end":82.516,"text":"在 譬如說我們在強盜在竊盜他很多時候會有三人以上是因為他有一定的身體的危險性啊等等之類的齁那我們在交通詐欺一開始設計三人以上我覺得本來就應該要打一個問號在這一次打詐專法又把這個跟激防兩個加起來好像看起來是因為要對應組織型的犯罪但因為根據研究目前來講如果是中國那邊的詐騙組織型的很多"},{"start":84.457,"end":113.216,"text":"但在台灣的這邊的詐騙是組合型的比較多組合型就是那種他一年可能就解散的那種詐騙集團那一年就解散的那種詐騙集團他跟這種三人以上本來要加重的這個理由其實有點不太合所以我這邊是建議我覺得我不知道司法院這邊的意見那就在逐條的時候可能是要不要稍微考慮一下這種連續加重兩次二分之一的問題以及他背後的理由到底充不充分如果可以的話在逐條的時候看能不能跟各位討論看看"},{"start":113.996,"end":120.464,"text":"司法院本來這邊的意見大概是什麼樣子?這邊我們認為是他並沒有並沒有連續加重因為他其實就是一個行分的特別的規定"},{"start":134.594,"end":158.847,"text":"對,但因為339之四本身就已經是一個加重詐欺罪了。那339之四它本身也是一個行分的獨立的規定,它並不是說加重其刑的規定。對,它不是加重其刑,但是因為339之四它已經比339更重了嘛。所以我舉個例子,譬如說假設他今天是只犯339,他沒有到加重詐欺喔。但是他的金額本身呢,也是到這一個叫做什麼,詐騙行為,就是符合這次打詐專法。"},{"start":160.947,"end":185.654,"text":"他沒有在三年以上所以他不會落入到右邊這邊的家中那這個時候就會形成一個問題就是說他有可能按照原本的刑分的規定他沒有落入到339之次他就不會到這邊來所以他只有五年以下但是他相較於這一個呢只要是三年以上利用境外他馬上交通二分之一會變成說他其實他的那個犯罪的程度其實單純的339然後金額又高的狀況他反而又不會到這一邊來"},{"start":186.995,"end":202.453,"text":"一邊會加太多,一邊會不橫貧。這個不橫貧的事情可能在逐條的時候必須要把這樣的一個事實告訴大家,不然的話這個時候會有輕重失衡的問題。前面有委員提到良心的問題,但我覺得可能不要到良心,可能是在這邊的規定要思考一下。"},{"start":204.216,"end":205.037,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":223.972,"end":248.998,"text":"假釋這一邊 因為我們用了三政法案的一個精神那這邊我會有一個建議就是說呢因為今天假釋這件事情他到底該假釋還是不要假釋他的重點是在於他在監獄的表現嘛所以他的監獄的表現跟他今天到底是不是犯了幾次的詐欺罪這應該是分開的兩件事這是第一個第二個就是我們都設計了這樣的一個簡型的規定但他第三次的時候他一定不會想要來講啦"},{"start":249.858,"end":273.059,"text":"因為按照這樣的一個方式呢因為它會落入到假釋裡面的這種三證法案那它一旦進來的話那你設計那個檢刑規定在第三次的時候其實就沒有作用所以是不是我不知道司法院或法務部這邊的一個立場但是顯然在這邊利用這種類似那個之前的強制治療的這種三證法案的精神它其實不符合我們想要打詐這件事情那是不是不知道司法院這邊的意見是如何"},{"start":274.04,"end":292.5,"text":"副委員吼,因為畢竟假設這個部分是參考美國的三正法案的法制啦,那這個法制到底妥不妥當,是不是適合吼,我覺得各有說法啦,那只是說在這一次我們考量到說如果是一般的這個電信詐欺的話,的確他的再犯可能性是比較高的。"},{"start":293.081,"end":318.826,"text":"那這種災犯可能性比較高的情況之下是不是適合在一般的假釋門檻到的時候就可以假釋還是要如同說這個法務部這邊所提出來的這個三證條款的規定吼我們的確是會有一些斟酌的餘地啦但是我們也尊重權責機關的處理啦對因為美國三證最初的精神是在良心加重並不是在假釋這一邊是我們在移植的時候呢把它一直放到比如說強制治療啊等等之類的"},{"start":319.626,"end":346.386,"text":"因為刑法第77條也有類似的規定。但是在犯可能性這件事情,它跟它譬如說在獄中的表現等等之類的,它是綜合做判斷嘛。所以我們不能夠預設立場,因為這等於是在你在一開始的時候預設立場它的在犯可能性,然後它在假設的規定作為改變。那這個其實在法理上聽起來是有點不同的啦。所以我覺得在逐條的時候這件事情可能要考慮一下,因為我今天沒有辦法討論逐條。所以就是這兩件事情希望司法院能夠注意一下。"},{"start":346.846,"end":347.369,"text":"審判決定。"}]}},{"id":"153639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153639","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9888df53884bad3dce155b271690f57e8efc6f3e651eb00659a3cbb2d65c519fdd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:08:02 - 12:13:54","影片長度":"00:05:52","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:08:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:13:54+08:00","duration":352,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1145,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時7分）謝謝主席！有請部長、數發部林次長和打詐辦公室李主任。"],["主席：請部長、次長和李主任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，請問你有接過詐騙訊息嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我的親友有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：哦！部長沒有。根據草根影響力文教基金會去年5月所公布的一項調查，全臺僅有6%的民眾沒有接到過詐騙電話跟簡訊，部長沒有接過詐騙訊息，你真的是那6%的天選之人。詐騙更在網路世界橫行，但是數位發展部成立之後，他們對反詐騙著力非常的少。剛剛部長有說相信政府，我們都願意相信政府，但是看到打詐辦公室的成立，1.0、1.5我們看到整體效力不彰，讓政府的威信力逐漸遞減，我們不願意承認這個事實，我們也沒有實際的去改善，這次我們要來修新四法，但是之前的1.0跟1.5並沒有讓我們看到你們有實際的打詐作為，所以民眾對政府的公信力感到疑惑，我想網路詐騙橫行應該不用我再多說了，但是一個花了幾百億元預算的單位卻達不到民眾的基本訴求，我自己最近也成為網路詐騙的使用範例，它拿著我們的頭像去做相關的詐騙，不管是招攬家庭代工或是工作介紹，它打著我們的名號，我想我只是一個小咖，但是連我這種小咖都會被詐騙集團當做使用範例，更何況是剛剛提到的總統、副總統或是知名媒體人。","截至去年11月，詐騙件數已經達到3萬5,000件，詐騙金額達79億元，這些案件越來越多，連交通罰單都可以有詐騙，那還有什麼不能騙？交通罰單的詐騙你有掌握嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：交通罰單的詐騙？你是說假的交通罰單？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["劉部長世芳：我有聽過這樣的交通罰單，但是我們的交通警察最後應該會看清楚什麼是真的？什麼是假的？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，但是它不是給警察看的，它是直接寄給民眾，所以民眾收到這個時不知道它是真或假，然後就去繳費。我相信警察有辨識的能力，但是民眾沒有。臺灣的詐騙到底有多猖獗？到底他們猖獗的原因是什麼？首要的關鍵就是全民個資外洩，手機和網路帳號都落入詐騙集團的手中，所以這些人可以輕而易舉的拿到全民的個資去散布和宣傳，進而達到聯繫，你覺得呢？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝羅委員的關心。首先，我要跟羅委員講，你不是小咖，你是名人；有關名人在網路上被詐騙集團利用，現在數位部有一定的方式來消除這種詐騙，只是速度不夠快，所以我們希望打詐專法通過之後，速度會快一點，避免名人被人冒用人頭或名字，變成詐騙集團的幫兇，這是一個。","另外一個，我相信你講得非常正確，以往有一些個資外洩，現在政府能夠做的就是亡羊補牢，但是重點在於，如果法律授權給行政單位的權力不足的話，站在民主法治國家……"],["羅委員廷瑋：窒礙難行。"],["劉部長世芳：對，就是窒礙難行。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我懂，所以我們當然要修法。"],["劉部長世芳：所以這個法律必須要趕快通過。"],["羅委員廷瑋：在法制作業裡，任何一部法律的提出，在行政院要審查之前，各部會都會針對修正的重點做法規的影響評估，也就是法制作業規定一定要附法規影響評估，請問「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」有沒有做法規影響評估？"],["劉部長世芳：羅政務委員當時召集各單位處理時，一定有做這樣的討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：會後可不可以給我影響評估相關的資料？"],["劉部長世芳：當時有做這樣的討論，但是我需要去看一下，他們的討論是不是有變成一個報告？這個我再跟羅委員報告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，沒關係，如果有的話，討論的一些過程也可以讓我們知道一下。你覺得一頁式的詐騙網頁未來有沒有機會可以封網？接獲多久可以下架該詐騙網站？"],["劉部長世芳：請數位部好嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：有關一頁式的詐騙廣告，最多的就是仿冒名人的部分，我們非常希望打詐專法通過之後，因為我們會要求實名制，以後這種詐騙廣告就不會再出現了，因為如果有人想要仿冒這些名人的話，譬如說謝金河董事長或是黃仁勳董事長的名字的話……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這些我都知道，但是很多人常在講，臉書不在臺灣，它是境外公司，所以我們無法可管，如果今天打詐四法三讀通過後，我們就管得到、抓得到嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒有錯，事實上，第二十七條到第三十三條裡面有講到，它必須要落地和有法律代表人，而且……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個法律代表人目前你們與業者商討的進度為何？執法訂定的期程？"],["林次長宜敬：基本上，現在美商和日商在臺灣大部分都已經有法律代表人或分公司了，這個比較沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是。"],["林次長宜敬：但是對他們來講，第一個，他們處理的速度太慢，所以法律通過以後，我們就可以更強力地要求他們要在更短的時間內將詐騙廣告下架，現在詐騙集團用的通常是一個時間差，就是從發現這是詐騙到移除的這段時間裡去進行詐騙，我們希望儘量縮短這個時間。"],["羅委員廷瑋：速度、速度、還是速度，拜託您！不只是抓詐騙的速度要快，訂定法律的速度也要加快，現在我們每天都在流失人民的納稅錢、每一天都有人被詐騙，加油！"],["林次長宜敬：是，謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢。","下一位請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.85784375,"end":1.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.56659375,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.0897187500000003,"end":2.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.85284375,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.57784375,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.594718750000002,"end":10.847843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.847843750000003,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.93221875,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.94909375,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.03346875,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.130343750000002,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.615343750000001,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.17034375,"end":120.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.80096875000001,"end":125.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.40409375,"end":123.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.53471875000001,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.15909375000001,"end":132.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.26346875000002,"end":139.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.95846875,"end":166.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.16096875000002,"end":168.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.62909375,"end":179.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.77159375000002,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.83409375000002,"end":184.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.47471875000002,"end":197.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.63721875000002,"end":199.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.16846875000002,"end":206.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.15909375,"end":215.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.96409375000002,"end":215.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.62596875000003,"end":233.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.59784375,"end":240.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.09471875000003,"end":240.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.17471875,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.01409375000003,"end":250.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.38034375,"end":258.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.30284375,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.15909375,"end":268.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.36034375,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.97409375,"end":290.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.62284375,"end":290.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.46659375,"end":299.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.22909375,"end":303.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.49409375000005,"end":319.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.60971875,"end":338.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.21034375000005,"end":349.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.59409375,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.38971875000004,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.49096875000004,"end":350.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.96346875,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.97596875000005,"end":352.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.95471875000004,"end":352.97159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.91,"end":9.299,"text":"李主任林主任好部長部長請問你有接過詐騙訊息嗎我的親友有"},{"start":12.142,"end":40.451,"text":"噢!部長沒有根據草根影響力文教基金會去年5月公布的一項調查全台僅6%的民眾沒有接到詐騙電話跟簡訊部長沒有接過詐騙那真的是6%的天選之人詐騙更在網路世界橫行但數位發展部成立之後對反詐的詐騙著力非常的少剛剛部長有說相信政府我們都願意相信政府但是看到打詐辦公室的成立1.0、1.5我們看到了整個效力不髒"},{"start":41.471,"end":45.332,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":58.957,"end":66.942,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":78.309,"end":105.36,"text":"我想我自己本身在最近也被成為這個網路詐騙的一個使用範例拿著我們的頭像去做這個相關的不管是家庭代工的招攬或者是一些工作介紹然後打著我們的名號我想我只是一個小咖但是連我這麼小咖都會被去用到詐騙集團的一個使用範例更何況是剛剛所提出的總統副總統或知名媒體人我想去年截至11月"},{"start":107.25,"end":111.753,"text":"我們詐騙的件數已經達到3萬5千件詐騙金額達79億這個案件越來越多連交通罰單都可以有詐騙還有什麼不能騙這個交通罰單的詐騙你有掌握嗎?"},{"start":121.857,"end":138.694,"text":"交通罰單的詐騙,你是說假的交通罰單是嗎?有聽過這樣子的一個交通罰單,但是我們的交通警察應該在最後會看清楚什麼是真的什麼是假的。對,但是他不是給警察看,他是直接寄給民眾,所以民眾收到這個他不知道這是真假,然後就去做繳費。"},{"start":140.229,"end":166.077,"text":"對所以我相信警察有辨識力但民眾沒有但台灣的詐騙到底有多猖獗到底猖獗的原因是什麼首要詐騙的關鍵原因就是全民的個資外洩手機網路帳號都落入詐騙集團的手中所以這些人可以輕而易舉的拿到全民的個資去做散佈去做宣傳去進而達到他們去聯繫這個您覺得呢"},{"start":168.698,"end":182.663,"text":"是,謝謝羅委員的關心我首先先跟羅委員講說您不是小咖,您是名人那有關名人如果在網路詐騙上面被利用的話現在我們的數位部他們都有一定的方式趕快來消除這種詐騙的部分那只是速度不夠快所以我們希望經過這個打詐專法通過之後呢速度會快一點"},{"start":190.205,"end":199.71,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":215.879,"end":232.807,"text":"在法制的作業裡面任何一部法律的提出在行政院審查之前都會有做各部會針對修正的重點做法規的影響評估也就是法制作業規定一定要負法規影響的評估請問詐欺犯罪危害防制條例這個草案有沒有做法規的影響評估"},{"start":233.909,"end":257.238,"text":"我們的羅政務委員他當時在召集各單位的處理的時候一定有做這樣的討論影響評估會後可不可以給我一些相關的資料有做這樣的討論但是我需要去看一下說他們的討論是不是變成一個是一個報告好沒關係如果有的話討論的一些過程也可以讓我們知道一下我想一夜市的詐騙網頁未來您覺得有沒有機會可以封網接貨多久可以下架該詐騙網站請數位部好嗎"},{"start":260.791,"end":281.256,"text":"關於一夜市的那個詐騙廣告最多的就是仿冒名人的部分那我們很非常希望說在這個打砸專法通過以後那我們會要求實名制就是以後這種詐騙廣告就不會再出現了因為如果有人想要仿冒這些名人譬如說謝金和董事長的或者黃仁勳先生的那個董事長的名字的話這我知道"},{"start":281.676,"end":302.913,"text":"是那很多常常都講說因為他的臉書不在台灣啊都在境外啊無法可管兼打詐刑事法落山獨就管得到嗎抓得到嗎沒有錯啊我們在事實上在第27條到第33條裡面啊就是有講到就是說他必須落地他必須有法律代表人而且法律代表人目前業者商討進度為何執法的訂定期程"},{"start":303.67,"end":311.596,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":319.802,"end":348.351,"text":"有這個法律通過以後我們可以對他做更強力的要求就是要他們在更短的時間裡面把這個詐騙廣告下架現在詐騙集團用的通常是一個時間差就是在發現這個是個詐騙到他移除的這段時間裡面他去進行詐騙那我們希望盡量縮短這個時間速度速度還是速度拜託您不只是會後我們所謂的抓詐騙的速度現在趕快訂定法律的速度也要加快每一天都在流失人民的納稅錢每一天都有人被詐騙加油"},{"start":349.531,"end":351.746,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、"}]}},{"id":"153638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153638","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98b956093399cdca14155b271690f57e8efc6f3e651eb0065955c55a2e10b602075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:01:16 - 12:07:48","影片長度":"00:06:32","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T12:01:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:07:48+08:00","duration":392,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時1分）謝謝，麻煩請劉世芳部長，還有數發部跟行政院打詐辦公室。"],["主席：劉部長，還有林次長，還有行政院主任。"],["劉部長世芳：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，打詐大家都很關心，本席也看到過去您在內政委員會也都持續努力地來做質詢，本席一直想要請教的是，現在網路詐騙那麼泛濫，還有那麼多的詐騙廣告持續被投放，現在真的是沒有任何的工具、管道能夠來阻止嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：應該是說目前的行政措施已經窮盡其力，但是法律的授權仍然不足，所以現在經過羅政委的努力之後……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們連各個溝通……"],["劉部長世芳：4個法一定要連環相扣才有用。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這是本席剛剛在網路上抓到的，其實這種名人詐騙已經層出不窮，而且本席覺得我們已經經過那麼多次的質詢、揭露，但是在社群媒體平臺上面還是會出現，那代表什麼？代表囂張至極啊！代表有利可圖，也代表囂張至極，視公權力於無物啊！我們看下一張，它把蔡英文前總統、賴清德總統、蕭美琴副總統的照片直接放上去，拿來當成是詐騙的工具，這就是詐騙，不是嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後也有把這些新聞電視臺的主持人全都放上去。部長，我再講一個更直接的，本席上禮拜有看到，本席這邊有揭露，還有那種二次詐騙，像剛剛我在下面搜尋您的新聞的時候，有關今天早上備詢的發言，在你的新聞上下出現了詐騙集團投放的詐騙廣告，下面是劉世芳說四法連動可以嚇阻詐騙，結果上面穿插的是網路詐騙資金追回，這就是二次詐騙啊！更惡劣的是，這個我沒有辦法放在簡報上，因為是我剛剛搜尋的，更惡劣的是，它直接把165反詐騙變成是它的logo，放在它的網站上，會不會覺得這樣的動作非常囂張？根本就是跟公權力開戰，那我們也已經講了兩年、三年，好幾年了，結果這樣的詐騙還是層出不窮，而且越演越烈！部長，您看到這樣，心裡作何感想？165反詐騙變成是詐騙集團的logo。"],["劉部長世芳：是的，其他的委員也有這樣的質詢，我想還是一樣，道高一尺魔高一丈，但是我們如果有比較好的法律基礎的話，我相信我們4個部會合在一起，應該還是有這個決心來打擊，尤其它投放這種假的部分、名人的部分，都是我們未來要究源、追訴的對象。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我現在很明確地跟你請教，因為之前打詐五法的時候，那時候你還是立法委員，在打詐五法的時候，政府單位也跟我們拍胸脯保證啊！說現在五法通過了，可以嚇阻，結果沒有；1.0的時候也說可以嚇阻，沒有；1.5的時候也說可以嚇阻，那現在本席很明確地講，在這一次的打詐四法裡面，是不是能夠讓這些詐騙廣告銷聲匿跡？"],["劉部長世芳：我想我們不敢講銷聲匿跡，但是我要跟委員報告，如果我們沒有法律的話，一定會更猖獗。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長……"],["劉部長世芳：如果我們沒有法律的話，一定會更猖獗，所以你要相信我們的政府，包括中央跟地方也要一起來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，如果你這樣講的話，本席很難接受。"],["劉部長世芳：不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子的意思就是說，我們這一次的修法還不夠囉？"],["劉部長世芳：我們並不……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們這一次修法的力度、強度……"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們必須要……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是說我們已經想到的預防，因為這一些都是老問題啊！這些不是新問題，你看名人詐騙從一開始的時候，哇！賴清德總統的肖像被濫用，大家很關注，到現在它丟出來，大家都覺得習以為常了。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：那就代表什麼？代表民眾覺得這個已經看到爛了，名人被濫用沒關係啦！反正就是詐騙。但是當詐騙集團可以一而再、再而三在社群媒體上投放廣告的時候，我覺得這就是對於公權力的一大挑戰啊！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：你能夠忍受黑幫在我們的道路上打廣告嗎？不能。"],["劉部長世芳：我們當然不能夠忍受。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果不能的話，那為什麼能夠忍受詐騙集團在網路上打廣告？"],["劉部長世芳：我們也不能忍受啊！但是我們必須要有法律……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以我現在只是要請教……"],["劉部長世芳：我們必須要有法律的手段。"],["洪委員孟楷：這一次的修法之後，是不是能夠讓這一些廣告銷聲匿跡？"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量來努力，我們一定會非常地努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後請教部長，能不能在這一次完了之後，我們做一個大規模的網路掃黑？就是如同我們的專案嘛！譬如說在春節有治安專案，那我們這一次修法如果順利通過，是不是能夠來訂一個網路上的大規模掃黑？掃除詐騙，至少我們用一切辦法去把這些網路上的廣告，不要讓它在社群媒體上再出現，我覺得這真的是非常諷刺的狀況，部長，能不能宣示？"],["劉部長世芳：是，洪委員所提的，應該是說掃除網路上面這種詐欺、詐騙的危害啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["劉部長世芳：原則上跟黑好像有一點不太一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是掃除這一些詐騙，掃黑嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量朝這個方向來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，為什麼我會提到這一點？因為這是你2023年質詢林右昌部長時說的話，你那時候站在這個位置就是要求林右昌部長要做一次大規模的掃黑。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席現在拜託，既然你那個時候是立法委員，你是監督者，現在你是主事者，我沒有懷疑你要打擊詐騙的決心，我沒有懷疑政府，因為我們跟政府一樣，就是希望讓臺灣2,300萬人都能免於受到詐騙的困難，所以我們當然希望有權力者能夠來做一次大規模的掃蕩，希望這些詐騙集團在網路上的廣告不要再出現了，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，這是一個很好的方向，我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","下一位請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 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Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:54:34 - 12:01:05","影片長度":"00:06:31","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:54:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:01:05+08:00","duration":391,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1082,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時54分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。詐騙非常非常地嚴重，然後各種招術都有，所以相關的部會，當然今天在內政委員會的這個法，主管機關是內政部。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我那天在交通委員會也特別提到其他的部會，像通傳會、數位發展部，尤其是電信這個部分非常非常地重要，所以怎麼樣去整合各部會，然後就自己所主管的去加強防範，最主要是個資怎麼樣能夠不讓詐騙集團了解。","我常常講徒法不足以自行，尤其我當過公務員30年，真的是徒法不足以自行，就以內政部來講，主要是警政署，警政署的人力也有限，都是靠警政署啦！但是前面的防範措施不足的話，為什麼這些詐騙集團會有那些個資呢？對不對？騙取帳戶，最主要第一個，他有電話，打電話還知道你的名字，對不對？那個最重要。另外，有很多的詐騙，他就寫信到這個家，有你的名字喔！然後說你可以用網路去處理，他用警政單位的名義去詐騙，然後你就匯款，結果一匯款，他有了這個帳戶之後又去騙其他的，騙來騙去。","針對這個部分，最主要是要先去了解這些詐騙集團是怎麼樣去做這樣的犯罪，所以警政署要去做分析，你這邊提到了你們的成果，但是要去分析啊！不是只有人抓來就好了，要去分析，所以警政署的人力也是非常地重要，怎麼樣去整合、去分析，然後去防範，這個部分非常地重要。那我們看整個人力，從這個表可以看得出來，因為臺東、花蓮、離島的人力有限，所以比例就很低，所以人力也要去加強。","我們現在談另外一個議題，今天有另外一個議題──宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例，本席在111年4月15日也有提這個條例，簡報左邊是我當初的條文，「五年內」就是今天要修正的條文，第五條我當初就是寫「五年內」，當初沒有被採納，就按照行政院版的二年，果然馬上又要修正，二年當然不可能啊！因為時間的關係，請內政部提供這個暫行條例施行到現在到底完成得如何，還有相關的比例。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們在報告的時候，有把這個數目字報告出來。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是數目字，你要做一些分析，包括什麼呢？包括原住民的宗教團體，然後怎麼樣的團體，尤其是第四條的部分，現在耕地有放在這裡面，那耕地的部分到底是多少？當初我提的條文沒有被採納，農舍沒有放進去，原住民保留地沒有放進去，像這些怎麼樣去做限制登記？所以不是數字而已喔！包含你現在完成的是哪些類型，這樣才能夠去檢討到底應該要延幾年啊！然後送案的是多少案，但是它沒有辦法完成的原因是什麼？這樣才能夠有效地去檢討。"],["主席：請內政部會後提供資料給鄭天財委員。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：最後，你看現行條文的第六款，第六條的第六款，要這些不動產登記名義人或是全體繼承人同意書，這很難的！我的條文是沒有這個。事實上，按照第四款，你看現行條文的第四款，契約書、公證書或其他足資認定不動產為宗教團體實質所有之文件或資料就可以了，已經足以證明的話，你還要不動產這些自然人的同意書，當然他不會給你嘛！所以沒有辦法通過是不是因為這個因素？絕對是這個因素，所以這個部分還要滾動檢討，必要的話應該要再修正，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請洪孟楷委員質詢。鄭委員不好意思，因為下午要逐條。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件, 其中一宗罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯罪犯"},{"start":53.24,"end":80.662,"text":"整合各部會然後就自己所主管的來去加強的去防範最主要是那個各支各支怎麼樣能夠不讓詐騙集團了解所以這個部分有時候我常講徒法不足以執行尤其是我當過公務員30年真的是徒法不足以執行"},{"start":81.874,"end":110.846,"text":"就以內政部來講主要是警政署警政署的人力也有限都是靠警政署啦但是前面的防範措施不足的話為什麼這些詐騙期的會有那些個資呢對不對有他丈夫騙取丈夫最主要第一個他有電話電話還告訴你還知道他的名字對不對"},{"start":111.878,"end":132.367,"text":"最重要的因為很多的詐騙他就寫信到這個家有你的名字然後你說你可以用這個網路去因為你有那個什麼這些用警政單位的那個名義去然後去匯款匯款之後有了這個帳戶"},{"start":137.199,"end":163.283,"text":"他有了這個賬戶之後又去騙其他的騙來騙去所以這個部分最主要就是說要先去了解這些詐騙集團是怎麼樣去去做這樣的犯罪所以警政署這邊你就是要去做分析你這邊提到了你們的成果你們的成果"},{"start":164.128,"end":188.559,"text":"當時要去分析啊,不是就抓來就好了。要去分析。所以警政署的人力也是非常非常重要。怎麼樣去整合、去分析、然後去防範。這個很重要。所以這個部分是一個非常非常重要。那我們看這個整個人力從這個表就可以看得出"},{"start":189.605,"end":209.331,"text":"因為人力臺東花蓮離島人力有限所以就比例就很低所以這個部分人力也要去加強我們現在在另外談一個議題今天有另外一個議題宗教團體以自然的名義登記不動產處理暫行條例111年本席4月15號也有提這個這個條例我當初的條文呢"},{"start":217.898,"end":243.944,"text":"左邊這個條五年內就是今天要修正的這個條文第五條我當初就是寫五年內當初沒有被採納就按照行政院版兩年果然馬上又要修正兩年當然不可能啊所以因為時間的關係請內政部提供"},{"start":248.134,"end":272.939,"text":"這從這個這個條例啊暫行條例施行到現在到底完成的如何相關的我們在報告的時候有把這個數目字報告不是數目字哦你要做一些分析啊包括什麼呢包括原住民的啊宗教團體啊然後怎麼樣的那些團體然後尤其是這個第第4條哈"},{"start":274.648,"end":298.418,"text":"四條的部分到底農舍的現在農舍有放在這裡面耕地耕地有放在這裡面耕地耕地的部分是到底是多少當初我提的條文沒有被採納的就是農舍沒有放進去原住民保育地沒有放進去像這些怎麼樣去做限制登記"},{"start":299.966,"end":327.097,"text":"所以不是數字而已喔然後你就是說你現在完成的是包含了哪些類型包含了哪些類型這樣的話才能夠去檢討到底應該延幾年啊然後是不是很多送案的是多少案但是他沒有辦法完成的原因是什麼所以這個部分才能夠去有效的去檢討"},{"start":328.407,"end":356.496,"text":"好請我們內政部匯報提供資料給我們鄭天才委員最後你看這個現行條文現行條文的第6款第6條的第6款要這些不動產登記名義人或是前提繼承人同意書啊這很難的我的條文是沒有這個事實上按照第4款現行條文你看第4款"},{"start":358.68,"end":381.147,"text":"企業書、公證書或其他組織認定不動產為宗教團體實質所有之文件或資料就可以了已經足以證明的話你還要這個不動產這些自然人的這些同意書當然他不會給你嘛所以沒有辦法通過是不是因為這個因素絕對是這個因素"},{"start":383.308,"end":391.234,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"}]}},{"id":"153636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c989a01935b71319d0d155b271690f57e8efc6f3e651eb00659a28f55c24be561275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:47:19 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Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:47:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:54:08+08:00","duration":409,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1045,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時47分）謝謝主席，請內政部劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：數發部林次長。"],["主席：林次長。"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部徐次長。"],["主席：徐次長。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，這一次的打詐四法，我相信一定會得到跨黨派的支持。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想打詐事實上是現在臺灣人民最期盼的事情，但是即使沒有打詐四法，我們還是有打詐辦公室，而且我們打詐國家隊成立了這麼久，剛才李坤城委員也特別提到，像這一次黃仁勳到臺灣，當然有得到媒體的高度重視，我們立刻就看到在社群平臺裡面出現了黃仁勳的詐騙網頁。事實上，包含我們的經濟部長，郭部長來自於企業界，多麼離譜，他還沒有上任，然後就立刻出現經濟部部長的詐騙網頁，還有蘇姿丰，他現在也在臺灣，也是一樣。我們不禁納悶，我們這個打詐辦公室，即便沒有打詐四法，難道面對這些層出不窮的詐騙網站就完全束手無策嗎？簡報的右下角是我昨天看PTT的時候，突然看到一個「老謝公益社團」，就是謝金河，謝金河社長其實也非常支持民進黨，但是可能他這幾年最大的抱怨就是為什麼假他之名的詐騙網頁如春風吹又生，沒有辦法，殺不掉，你殺了1個又有10個，殺了10個又有上百個，難道打詐四法沒有通過，這些事情真的就束手無策嗎？他們就可以這樣膽大妄為嗎？請問部長，還是次長可以跟我答復一下？"],["林次長宜敬：在打詐四法通過之前，我們短期的做法基本上有兩個，第一個，我們設立一個公眾人物這些名人通報的email，像謝社長還有郭部長，他那邊遇到這種狀況的話，我們馬上跟他做確認，確認以後我們會馬上去通報LINE或者是臉書，要求他們儘快去下架。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們是不是每天都接到通報？"],["林次長宜敬：是，每天都接。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不對？因為真的也有一些企業界在反映，他一個禮拜每一天都在通報，煩不勝煩啊！"],["林次長宜敬：是，我們的策略基本上有兩個，除了打詐四法這個法律的手段以外，我們利用科技的手段，現在資安院每天會利用AI的方式去掃描網路這些社群平臺，然後去找到那些可疑的詐騙訊息，我們在做人工篩選以後，也會很快……"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得你們在末端去做這個，只是累死大家而已。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得一定要在前端，你知道像黃仁勳，有人直接寫信給臉書說這些都是詐騙集團，臉書回覆給他，說這個沒有違反它的廣告原則，所以源頭不管制，那麼就累死三軍啊！"],["林次長宜敬：是，委員講得完全沒錯，所以現在需要打詐四法給我們法源的依據，讓我們可以給這些跨國網路平臺更大的壓力，要求它們縮短時間。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是給他們壓力啦！他們不能成為幫兇，好不好？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請法務部次長，我用一點點時間。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實在司法及法制委員會，在新政府上來之前我就特別提到，你們在這次的四法裡面沒有針對律師，你知道現在的律師涉入這些詐騙集團是越來越多，知法犯法！你今天去打開這些網頁，很多律師做廣告說一定能幫你脫罪，他成功幫你怎麼樣，怎麼樣可以減輕你的罪行或者幫你脫罪，所以剛才才講的，為什麼檢調、警察辛辛苦苦地去抓，抓完之後到了法院，然後輕輕鬆鬆地，他們就統統都被放出來？因為這些律師很厲害。","這些律師不只如此，還直接涉詐，成為這些犯罪集團的首腦之一，他們還可以成立一個律師團，然後每一個車手派給你一個律師，然後互相串聯，把他的辯護政策還有掌握的資訊回報給詐騙集團的首腦，結果你看，現在辦了這麼多的詐騙案件都跟律師有關。","事實上我已經提案，我希望法務部也應該提案，我認為律師、法官、檢察官涉案，這些知法犯法的人應該罪加一等，一定要罪加一等，不然他們不會怕的。在我的提案裡面，對於涉詐的律師，是在律師法裡面做修正，比如講你只要判一審有罪，就是組織犯罪條例第三條第一項，跟詐騙有關的，你一審有罪就應該要除名處分。現在縣市首長就是這樣，一審有罪，他這個縣市首長就被撤銷了耶！政治人物應該有這樣的一個責任，那律師呢？是不是應該這樣子？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們這個禮拜就是要開會來檢討律師法這部分的修正。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們準備什麼時候提出修正？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們有請律師公會派人來討論，這個部分已經要開會討論了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，非常好。"],["徐次長錫祥：那個日期都定了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，非常好，我希望能夠儘速，我覺得有法就先行，沒有問題。因為打詐四法我們全力支持，但是律師、法官、檢察官知法犯法，只要有涉入，我覺得絕對不能寬貸，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部在這個部分的責任把它負起來。"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","下一位請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.26721875,"end":3.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.16096875,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.74721875,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.82284375,"end":8.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.57784375,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.552218750000002,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.176593750000002,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.745968750000003,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.40784375,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.75346875,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.934093750000002,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.53221875,"end":41.931593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.01596875,"end":62.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.87346875,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.38721875,"end":70.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.72034375,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.52159375000001,"end":77.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":81.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.94221875000001,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.76471875,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.50659375000001,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.93596875,"end":125.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.83409375000001,"end":130.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.96409375000002,"end":135.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.12784375,"end":138.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":145.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.57784375,"end":150.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.87659375,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.19909375,"end":175.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.63659375,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.08346875,"end":179.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.69096875000002,"end":181.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.65659375,"end":181.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.72409375,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.19221875000002,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.58846875,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.09471875,"end":187.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.36034375,"end":187.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.73159375,"end":205.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.23096875000002,"end":227.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.39909375000002,"end":209.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.68346875,"end":225.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.86034375000003,"end":229.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.02909375000002,"end":228.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.11346875,"end":228.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.58159375000002,"end":239.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.37346875000003,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.59659375,"end":242.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.96284375000002,"end":263.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.75159375,"end":248.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.78534375,"end":249.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.08909375000002,"end":249.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.71971875,"end":324.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.41909375,"end":325.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.93784375,"end":350.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.94659375000003,"end":354.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.31721875,"end":360.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.66659375,"end":361.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.20221875000004,"end":362.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.77596875,"end":365.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.23971875,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.63596875,"end":371.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.10784375000003,"end":374.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.02284375000005,"end":376.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.79909375,"end":377.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.63846875,"end":386.56971875000005},{"speak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- 11:47:05","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:38:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:47:05+08:00","duration":520,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":988,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時38分）謝謝主席，請劉部長，還有數發部林次長。"],["主席：劉部長，還有數位發展部的林次長。"],["劉部長世芳：李委員好。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。這個打詐專法我是非常地關心，我在立委就任之後，我提的第一個法案就是打詐專法，然後很幸運在2月23日付委，交付司法法制委員會審查。在3月12日我的第一次施政總質詢，我也問當時的行政院長陳建仁，我問他打詐專法何時能夠送到立法院來審查，他說希望在他卸任之前，520之前能夠送到立法院，然後果然很有效率，在5月9日行政院就通過打詐四法的草案，在5月17日交付委員會審查。我也謝謝主席今天特別安排這個打詐專法，我們都希望在7月16日立法院休會之前，打詐專法四法都能夠通過，我相信這是大家共同的心願。","我的打詐專法跟院版比起來，當然院版會比較豐富，因為你們有包含內政部、法務部、數發部、金管會等等，但是我先給部長及次長看一張照片，現在黃仁勳來到臺灣，一頁式的詐騙廣告就如影隨形地出來了，我想請問次長，如果這個打詐專法通過之後，因為你說要採實名制嘛！對不對？在你們的草案裡面第三十條是要採實名制，在第三十一條裡面，廣告也要揭露必要的訊息嘛！甚至第三十條第二款也提到平臺業者要主動實施預防、偵測、辨識、應對詐欺的防制計畫等等，所以我請教一下，如果這個打詐專法通過之後，類似這種一頁式的詐騙廣告，名人的詐騙廣告還會再出現嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：這個打詐專法通過以後，像假冒黃仁勳身分這種廣告就不會出現了，因為它有這個義務，必須去確認這是黃仁勳本人授權刊登的廣告。"],["李委員坤城：所以採實名制之後就不會再出現了？"],["林次長宜敬：就不會再出現了。"],["李委員坤城：好，說到這個就要提到，現在採實名制的平臺業者有哪些？"],["林次長宜敬：現在像臉書，它是政治性廣告都採實名制。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我們都採實名制了啊！"],["林次長宜敬：對，但是它其他的廣告沒有採實名制。我們這個打詐專法就是希望他們其他的廣告，尤其是投資方面的廣告，他們要採用實名制。"],["李委員坤城：Google現在有採實名制了嗎？"],["呂署長正華：跟委員補充，Google也有採實名制。"],["李委員坤城：Google有採實名制了。"],["呂署長正華：對，它是因為政治的部分之前要求得深；在投資的部分，我們在這邊請它要做KYC，而且要實名制。"],["李委員坤城：好，現在不管是LINE、臉書，還有Google，在打詐專法通過之後，都會要求他們採實名制，對不對？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["李委員坤城：然後像這一種，不論是黃仁勳、謝金河之類的，這種一頁式的詐騙廣告就不會再出現了嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，這種假冒身分的一頁式廣告應該就不會再出現了。"],["李委員坤城：應該。"],["林次長宜敬：對，因為如果出現的話，他們就有法律的責任，這些廣告平臺就有法律責任。"],["李委員坤城：好，因為我看你們是有相關的法律條文，也有罰則，對不對？"],["林次長宜敬：是，有罰則。"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下，我的法案裡面有兩項是行政院版沒有的，一個就是，你犯了打詐專法經判決有罪確定者，不得登記為公職人員候選人，那我不曉得打詐專法通過之後，就這部分來講，他如果是屬於組織犯罪，我們在刑法裡面也有規定啊！如果是組織犯罪有排黑條款，那在打詐專法通過之後，如果是屬於組織犯罪的，有沒有排黑條款──不得參選，不得為候選人？有沒有這一條？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有。"],["李委員坤城：沒有這一條？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，目前沒有。"],["李委員坤城：來。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，目前我們在打詐專法裡面並沒有把這一條放進去。"],["李委員坤城：我是建議可以放進去啦！因為他是違反了刑法，刑法裡面有一條是排黑，它就是有關詐欺、組織犯罪的，在第三百三十九條之四有四款，其中有一款是犯三人以上的詐欺的話，它有在排黑條款裡面。"],["劉部長世芳：是，那是在公職選罷法裡面所規定的部分，包括國安五法或者是組織犯罪，或者是其他的貪污治罪條例裡面，所以如果可以引用公職選罷法的話，我們並不反對，但是在目前的打詐專法裡面，我們並沒有把它單獨臚列進去。"],["李委員坤城：我是建議啦！因為在選罷法的排黑條款裡面也有把詐欺列進去，是不是要在打詐專法裡面再列進去，在逐條討論的時候我們再來討論。","第二個，有關詐欺量刑準則的制定，因為大家都覺得，每次都判得很輕啦！判得很輕就是因為我們沒有一定的量刑準則，所以是不是能夠制定詐欺量刑準則，把它入法，讓法官在判刑的時候有一定的標準？"],["劉部長世芳：我們只有具體求刑。"],["李委員坤城：具體求刑。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["李委員坤城：那具體求刑是多少？"],["劉部長世芳：要看他是……"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，為什麼大家覺得有一些詐騙被抓到的時候就判很輕？這也是民怨啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我想輕重我們還要尊重法官的判決。"],["李委員坤城：當然是尊重法官判決，所以我才會說是不是有一個量刑的標準。"],["徐次長錫祥：量刑標準，在司法院他們本身會制定一定的量刑標準，那我們檢察官的立場，針對案件的嚴重程度，我們在起訴的時候就會具體求刑。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說，司法院有個「刑事案件妥適量刑法草案」，這個目前還沒有嘛！那我的意思是說，因為大家對於詐騙抓到輕判，有很多真的是輕判喔！有一個數字是說判不到半年的大概占5成以上，都是輕判，所以我才會建議待會在具體條文討論的時候，能夠把刑事案件的量刑標準也納進去，讓法官在判刑的時候至少有一個標準跟準則，不是全部都是法官的自由心證。"],["徐次長錫祥：這個在立法上比較少見到，可能要請司法院的人來說明一下，因為比較少這樣子放下去，這個好像是法官的審判核心的問題。"],["李委員坤城：司法院要不要做一個說明？我的問題在於說，因為現在大家認為抓到都輕判，是不是能夠有一個量刑的準則？"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，我們之前有一個妥適量刑法的草案，在上個會期因為沒有審查，所以就退回司法院這邊繼續研議。那我也在想，因為量刑這個部分涉及到比較多的層面，它不適合只是用一個條文來顯示，它比較適合用一個通盤性的研議方式，而且整個研議的機關也必須要獨立化，所以是不是由一個條文就能夠訂一個量刑準則，我覺得這邊恐怕會有一些疑慮。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以你們這個草案在這個會期也沒有再送過來？"],["陳副廳長信旗：我們這個會期有繼續要再研議。"],["李委員坤城：好。我的問題在於說，其實部長，我們都來自民意代表，有時候這個都輕判啦！如何顯現在條文裡面，不要讓民眾認為每次抓到都是輕判的，那個精神能夠在討論的時候把它放進去。"],["劉部長世芳：是，李委員用心良苦，我們來努力。"],["李委員坤城：好。"],["劉部長世芳：我們知道大家有很大的民怨，要怎麼樣解決民怨，也是我們應該做的。"],["李委員坤城：對，好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席！"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。","下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.232843750000001,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.08909375,"end":40.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.45596875,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.63221875,"end":85.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.02596875,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.86471875000001,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.40846875000001,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.50034375,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.25471875,"end":136.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":136.09409375,"end":136.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.12784375,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":136.31346875,"end":137.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.71409375000002,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":143.21534375000002,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.26096875000002,"end":149.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":149.54346875000002,"end":160.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.85846875000001,"end":158.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.17471875,"end":162.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":162.92534375,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":165.22034375,"end":166.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.94596875000002,"end":166.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.65471875,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":166.97534375,"end":174.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.31284375,"end":168.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.19784375,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.38346875000002,"end":174.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":174.85596875000002,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.97409375,"end":188.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.60909375,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":188.62596875,"end":188.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.79471875000002,"end":191.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.41034375,"end":195.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":195.35909375,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":197.50221875000003,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.13909375,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.99534375000002,"end":222.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.85971875,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.78784375,"end":205.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.08471875,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.78909375,"end":233.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.39534375000002,"end":235.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.61846875,"end":239.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.53784375,"end":240.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.63471875000002,"end":242.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.20409375000003,"end":243.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.28409375,"end":244.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.86596875,"end":246.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.94159375,"end":248.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.19034375,"end":249.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.62471875000003,"end":250.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.95346875,"end":257.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.52659375,"end":282.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.83909375,"end":284.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.67409375,"end":287.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.28971875,"end":302.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.51096875,"end":342.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.64784375000005,"end":347.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.52096875,"end":350.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.74409375000005,"end":351.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.94221875,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.97596875000005,"end":355.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.11096875000004,"end":352.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.97534375000004,"end":359.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":360.04221875,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.03721875,"end":369.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":369.42471875,"end":369.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":369.74534375,"end":386.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.11409375000005,"end":393.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.48846875000004,"end":404.27159375},{"speaker":"SP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打詐專法 打詐專法 打詐專法"},{"start":15.089,"end":31.449,"text":"很幸運在2月23號這個副委這個教父這個司法法制委員會審查然後在3月12號的我的第一次的施政總諮詢我也問當時這個我們的行政院長陳建仁那時候我問他說這個打詐專法何時能夠送到這個立法院來做審查"},{"start":32.29,"end":57.212,"text":"他那時候提到說希望在他卸任之前520之前能夠送到這個立法院那果然很有效率在5月9號的時候這個行政院就通過這個草案打詐釋法然後呢這個在5月17號的時候也交付委員會審查那我也謝謝主席今天特別安排這個打詐專法我們大家都希望在7月16號之前立法院休會之前這個打詐專法釋法"},{"start":58.453,"end":67.657,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":86.925,"end":100.063,"text":"這個詐騙的一頁式的詐騙廣告一樣如影隨形就出來了那我想請問一下次長如果我們這個打造算法通過之後因為你說要採實名制嘛對不對在你們這個草案裡面30條就是說你們要採這個實名制"},{"start":101.204,"end":120.444,"text":"然後在這個三十一條裡面廣告也要介入必要的訊息嘛那甚至三十條第二款也提到說這個平台業者要主動實施預防偵測辨識應對詐欺的防制計畫等等所以我請教一下如果這個打詐專法通過之後像類似這一種一夜市的詐騙廣告名人的詐騙廣告還會再出現嗎"},{"start":123.647,"end":138.462,"text":"打造專法通過以後,假冒黃仁勳身份這種廣告就不會出現了,因為他有這個義務必須去確認這是黃仁勳本人授權刊登的廣告。所以就採實名制之後,就不會再出現了。說到這個就提到說,現在採實名制的平台業者有哪些?"},{"start":143.234,"end":149.857,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":165.219,"end":190.777,"text":"跟委員補充,Google也有採實名制,但是因為政治的就是之前要求的深,所以這個投資的部分我們在這邊請他要做KYC,而且要實名制。好,那現在臉書,現在就是說不管是LINE、臉書還有Google,在打詐、專法通過之後都會要求他們要採實名制嘛,對不對?然後就是說像這一種不論是黃榮勛、謝金河之類的,這種一夜市詐騙廣告就不會再出現了嗎?"},{"start":191.477,"end":219.254,"text":"是,這種假冒身份的業業式廣告應該就不會再出現了。應該?對,因為如果出現的話,他們就有法律的責任,這些廣告平台就有法律責任。好,因為我看你們相關的這個條文是有相關的法律的條文,也有罰則嘛,對不對?是,有罰則。好,那我再請教一下,我的這個法案裡面有兩項是行政院版沒有的啦。有一個就是說這個,如果你是犯打造專法、經判決有罪確定者、不得登記為公職人員的候選人,"},{"start":220.194,"end":243.748,"text":"那我不曉得說這個打詐專法通過之後就這部分來講咧就是因為他如果是屬於這個組織犯罪那我們在刑法裡面有規定啊如果是組織犯罪的話有排黑條款那如果是這一個在打詐專法通過之後那是屬於這一個組織犯罪的那他有沒有排黑條款不得參選不得這個為候選人有沒有這一條"},{"start":247.967,"end":253.436,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案》案。"},{"start":258.472,"end":269.518,"text":"我是建議可以放進去,因為它是違反了刑法裡面有一條是有關詐欺組織犯罪的,這個應該是有339條之四,有下面四款,其中有一款是有犯三人以上的詐欺的話,"},{"start":285.694,"end":301.842,"text":"有還有在排二條款裡面啦是那在公職選罷法裡面所規定的部分包括國安無法或者是組織犯罪齁或者是其他的貪污自罪條例裡面所以如果可以引用公職選罷法的話我們並不反對但是在目前的這個打詐專法裡面我們並沒有把它單獨盧列進去"},{"start":304.104,"end":327.29,"text":"那我是建議啦,因為這個我們在這個選罷法的這個排在條款裡面也有這一個把這個詐欺把它列進去啦那是不是要在這一個打造專法裡面再列進去這個我們主條討論的時候我們再來討論啦那第二個就是說有關這個詐欺量刑準則的制定啦因為大家都覺得說,哇這個12次每次都判得很輕啦"},{"start":328.07,"end":349.931,"text":"判得很輕就是說我們這個沒有這個一定的量刑的準則所以說是不是能夠把這個詐欺量刑準則把它制定入法然後呢讓這一個法官在這個判刑的時候呢有一定的標準我們只有具體求刑具體求刑那具體求刑是多少"},{"start":352.204,"end":358.853,"text":"對、那我的意思啦就是說現在為什麼大家覺得說啊有些這個詐騙抓到的時候就判很輕欸這也是民怨啊"},{"start":360.206,"end":384.057,"text":"報告委員我想輕重我們要尊重法官的判決當然是尊重法官判決所以我才說是不是有一個量刑的一個標準啊量刑標準在司法院他們自己本身會制定一定的量刑的標準那我們檢察官的立場大概就我們會對這個案件的嚴重程度我們會在起訴的時候我們就會具體求刑"},{"start":386.618,"end":404.055,"text":"我的意思是說司法院還有一個刑事案件妥適量刑罰草案這個目前還沒有我的意思是說因為大家對於這個詐騙抓到輕判有很多真的是輕判有一個數字就是說好像是判不到半年的大概占五成以上"},{"start":405.083,"end":425.164,"text":"都是輕判,所以我才會建議說是不是在我們的這個待會在具體條文的時候討論的時候能夠把這一個行事案件這一個量刑的這一個標準也把它納進去啦。當然那法官在判刑的時候他有一個至少有一個標準給他準則,就是不是全部都是法官的自由行政。"},{"start":425.724,"end":425.924,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":446.616,"end":461.526,"text":"那是不是能夠有一個量刑的一個準則啦?包委員,我們之前有一個那個《妥適量刑法》的草案,那在上個會期因為沒有審查,所以就特別那個司法院這邊繼續研議,"},{"start":463.047,"end":485.545,"text":"那我才想說因為量刑這個部分涉及到比較多的層面啦它不適合只是用一個條文就來顯示它比較適合用一個通盤性的研議的方式那而且它整個研議的機關也必須要獨立化所以是不是有一個條文就能夠把它定一個量刑準則我覺得這邊恐怕會有一些疑慮啦好 那所以你們這個還沒有再 這個會期也沒有再送過來我們這個會期有繼續要再研議"},{"start":486.966,"end":514.769,"text":"好啊,那我的問題在於說齁,其實部長我們都來自民意代表齁,就是說有時候齁,這個都侵犯啦齁,那侵犯如何顯現在這個條文裡面,不要讓民眾有認為說啊每次抓到那個都是侵犯的這個精神能夠在討論的時候能夠放進去這樣子啦。是,李委員用心良苦,我們來努力。我們都知道說大家都有很大的民怨,要怎麼樣解決民怨也是我們應該做的。好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝,謝謝主席。"},{"start":518.554,"end":520.21,"text":"好,謝謝我們李昆城委員的支持。"}]}},{"id":"153634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9884c05a5d12a8d31c155b271690f57e8efc6f3e651eb00659bc1a2502fc54816a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:31:18 - 11:38:07","影片長度":"00:06:49","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:31:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:38:07+08:00","duration":409,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":954,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時31分）謝謝主席，是不是請部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。我想當時候的打詐五法，我們一起努力過，然後通過了打詐五法，可是現在發現打詐五法沒有辦法面對目前手法非常先進的這些詐騙，所以我們必須用打詐專法。我必須詢問的是，我們現在有幾個項目，大概都是被混淆視聽、魚目混珠的部分，有了這個打詐專法之後，我們就可以加強打擊在臉書社群平臺當中的投資詐騙廣告嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我們認為經過我們團隊的努力，尤其是補足了法令上面的空間之後，應該可以有效地打擊，尤其是在網路平臺上面的詐騙廣告或是詐騙集團。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為現在包括臉書，最重要的是這些申請單位的公司設置都是在國外，如果有了這個打詐專法之後，我們就有辦法用我們的法令來要求他們嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我們現在不管用什麼方式，我們都希望它在臺灣可以設立法律代表。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。"],["林次長宜敬：現在依照打詐專法二十七條到三十三條裡面的規定，如果這種跨國的網路廣告平臺在臺灣沒有設立分公司或者法律代表的話，我們可以要求它去設立法律代表，這樣子我們才能夠對它，第一個，可以跟它溝通……"],["陳委員亭妃：如果它不設法律代表呢？那我們就停止這個平臺的運用嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：對，我們會限制它的流量，如果限制流量以後，它還是不願意配合的話，我們可以進行封網的動作。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。第二個，我們現在如何協助金融、電信、網路業者來配合打詐政策？因為現在打詐，第一關都是警察，說真的，去報案，可是當警察拿到這個案子，他還要報檢調單位，那個都緩不濟急啊！錢都不知道流到哪裡去了！那這個部分，在打詐專法之後，我們有辦法在第一時間去做時間序的掌握嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，我想委員講到重點，其實現在詐騙集團就是利用時間差，我們發現它可能是詐騙訊息的時候，因為要通報處理，尤其是後端的跨國網路平臺的處理速度我們覺得太慢了，所以我們希望通過這個法令以後，可以來勸說這些跨國網路廣告平臺，然後給它一些壓力，希望它縮短時間，減少這個窗口期間，就是他們做網路犯罪的窗口期間。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果它不配合呢？"],["林次長宜敬：如果不配合的話，還是一樣，我們最後就是限制它的流量，然後封網，我想應該不至於走到這條路，但是這是我們最後的……"],["陳委員亭妃：可是你知道現在透過電子錢包，因為電子錢包很快速地傳輸，其實你根本掌控不了，而且他們用電子錢包這樣的詐騙手法，我們的民眾可能1,000元、2,000元，他不會這麼快就去報案，等到他發現的時候已經來不及了，我們再去報案，你怎麼讓所謂的跨國網路的輸送系統能夠掌控，然後可以配合？"],["林次長宜敬：跟數發部有關的部分就是在第三十四條跟第三十六條，關於第三方支付還有電商、遊戲等部分。其實這種網路犯罪，他們會把一筆錢從不同的帳號轉來轉去，它就是要逃避我們的追蹤，然後現在銀行或者是各種遊戲平臺最大的問題是在於說，因為個資保護的關係，他們沒辦法進行聯防，他們沒有辦法共享資訊，所以我們在這裡面有很多講到聯防的條文，就是希望有法源依據，讓這些遊戲平臺、銀行及電商業者可以彼此互相有一些合作，就是訊息共享，有哪些帳戶看起來最可疑、把錢轉來轉去的，我們可以即時通報。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，現在法令有做出強制，可是如果不配合，如果這些電商、這些相關單位不配合，針對這個部分有什麼樣的處罰機制？我們可以禁止它不再去做錢包的經營或是電子銀行的處理嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，目前這方面最嚴重的就是第三方支付的虛擬帳戶的問題，因為現在政府的法令對第三方支付業者的規定非常低，沒有資本額的限制，所以很多公司在做工商登記的時候，它就說它要做第三方支付，總共有一萬多家。現在數發部開始進行所謂的能量登錄，就是說你真正要做這件事情的話，你必須來跟我們登錄，然後我們做一些稽核、輔導，結果一萬多家裡面實際只有八十幾家來登記，通過我們檢查認證的目前只有五十幾家，第一個就是數量大為減少；再來就是，他們如果有任何做得不好的地方，我們就會通知銀行，要求銀行配合，不再發虛擬帳號給這些第三方支付業者，所以透過這個方法，我們已經……"],["陳委員亭妃：那請問這個法過了，預計可以減緩多少所謂第三方支付被詐騙的一個方向？這個非常恐怖。"],["林次長宜敬：是，報告委員，我們的能量登錄已經在進行了，然後法源的話，第一個就是聯防機制，就是我們剛剛講的，這個可以做得更好。另外一個就是，現在很多第三方支付業者是用個資保護的理由，他也怕，他不敢把這個訊息……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，隱匿啊！"],["林次長宜敬：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：他會有隱匿的狀況，這個怎麼辦？"],["林次長宜敬：對，那我們有法源以後，就是……"],["陳委員亭妃：有法源就可以處理了？"],["林次長宜敬：就可以處理了。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們期待這個打詐專法可以解決現在這種日新月異的詐騙手法。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員的質詢。","下一位請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.13221875,"end":0.14909375000000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.43596875,"end":4.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.620968749999999,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.156593750000001,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.059093750000002,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.46409375,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":48.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.609718750000006,"end":49.626593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.626593750000005,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.10659375,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.88596875,"end":63.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.90284375,"end":64.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.25284375000001,"end":67.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.61534375000001,"end":68.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.28596875000001,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.36971875,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.03534375000001,"end":85.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.93721875,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.97096875000001,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.20721875000001,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.42659375000001,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.24471875,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.02284375,"end":112.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.36846875,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.97159375000001,"end":110.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.63784375,"end":112.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.67159375000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.85721875,"end":113.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.03721875000001,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.53159375,"end":144.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.85221875000002,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.06284375,"end":147.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.07971875,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.47909375,"end":175.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.81784375,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.22971875000002,"end":186.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.82034375,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.93409375000002,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.63721875000002,"end":200.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.65346875,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.34096875,"end":205.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.39159375000003,"end":203.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.77096875,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.08284375000002,"end":284.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.98659375,"end":305.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.77221875000004,"end":359.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.26159375000003,"end":370.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.40346875,"end":373.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.82096875,"end":373.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.08659375,"end":379.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.60034375000004,"end":384.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.54471875,"end":385.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.08034375,"end":392.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.17221875,"end":393.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.30284375,"end":393.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.60659375,"end":405.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.88471875000005,"end":396.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.07846875,"end":398.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.63846875,"end":408.96284375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":5.251,"text":"謝謝主席。我們是不是請部長。謝謝。好,請部長。委員好。部長好。我想在我們當時候打詐無法,我們一起努力過,然後通過了打詐無法。可是現在發現了,打詐無法是沒有辦法面對現在非常守法先進的這些詐騙。所以我們必須用打詐專法。"},{"start":29.62,"end":30.241,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":49.699,"end":60.594,"text":"是的,我們認為說經過我們的團隊的努力尤其是給了一個法令上面補足的空間之後應該可以有效的打擊尤其是在網路平台上面的這個詐騙的廣告或是詐騙的集團"},{"start":63.922,"end":72.148,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"},{"start":87.621,"end":112.019,"text":"是,我們現在就是依照我們這個《打招專法》27條到33條裡面有規定就是說如果這個外國這種跨國的網路廣告平台在台灣沒有設立那個分公司或者法律代表的話我們可以要求他去設立法律代表這樣子我們才能對他第一個可以跟他溝通那如果他不設法律代表呢?那我們就讓他就停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是,跟蘇發部有關的部分,就是在第34條跟第36條,就是關於第三方支付還有電商、遊戲等部分。他們現在其實這種網路犯罪,他們會把一筆錢從不同的帳號轉來轉去。 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- 11:31:01","影片長度":"00:07:25","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:23:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:31:01+08:00","duration":445,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時23分）謝謝主席，本席請行政院打詐辦公室李主任，還有內政部劉部長。"],["主席：行政院李主任，還有我們部長。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩位好。我先講一個實例，本席辦公室，應該說每位委員辦公室都常常接到民眾被詐騙的案例，我們要協助，於是我們向警察單位、警政署詢問怎麼辦，我們民眾被詐騙了，而且可能是來自國外的跨國詐騙，結果我們得到的訊息是，接電話的員警說這真的沒辦法，因為我自己也被騙了100萬，所以臺灣是詐騙的天堂！這個問題出在哪裡？我們今天在審詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，所有詐騙集團靈活、創新、推陳出新，但是我們呢？我們這邊說打詐國家隊，請問這個隊伍有辦法整合嗎？部長，因為你是這個草案的主管單位，你有辦法整合各單位嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，整合，第一個就是行政院各部門的整合，這是一個。目前行政院各部門在法律授權不足之下，已經歷經……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道，你不用講那個，那你有沒有辦法整合？我只問這個。"],["劉部長世芳：未來的整合還是要靠行政院整合至少四個部會，然後我們推出四個法案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：行政院誰整合？"],["劉部長世芳：目前當然是打詐辦公室在做行政協調的部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：打詐辦公室？所以是李主任在整合囉？李主任，我聽說你的位階不夠，你沒辦法指揮各部會啊！"],["李主任憲明：跟立委報告，其實行政院……"],["徐委員欣瑩：欸，我只要問，打詐國家隊誰負責嘛？"],["李主任憲明：平常都是由政務委員在召集各部會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在哪一位政務委員？"],["李主任憲明：林明昕政務委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是由政務委員？"],["李主任憲明：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：關於今天這個草案，我們就不希望政出多門，結果你們在草案裡面每一個又分層負責，你根本整合不起來啊！這就是最大的問題啊！一個團隊沒辦法整合就「二二六六」，長期以來就造成了詐騙者的天堂，因為沒辦法整合啊！","本席接著要就行政效能不彰的部分，有關整合，當然這可能不是你們兩位的權責，但是我在這邊還是要先提出來，特別是這一次這個專法，內政部是主管單位，而法案是一部法案，但是做事又是各自處理，對不對？你們的法案裡面哪一個是金管會？哪一個是NCC？好，請兩位先回座。","本席接著請金管會黃副局長、NCC黃主秘、數發部林政次，請暫停時間一下，等他們就位。我們在第一線，民眾是受害者的第一線，檢察官是辦理打詐的第一線，結果檢察官改革團體劍青檢改他們有提出三大戰犯，詐騙的三大戰犯是哪三大呢？金管會、數位部，還有NCC，連第一線的檢察官都覺得我們行政部門的行政效能不彰。","首先，本席要請教金管會，我們大家都一直覺得，檢察官也點名了，無論是人頭帳戶、虛擬帳戶、網路銀行、電子支付、第三方支付或虛擬貨幣交易，沒有一個跟金管會無關，但是欠缺前端的行政監管，那我請問你，對於這些建議，你們有沒有辦法改善？"],["黃副局長厚銘：是，跟委員報告，針對剛剛委員所說，劍青檢改它有提到虛擬貨幣的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你可不可以簡答？"],["黃副局長厚銘：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：像這一些你都不管，引起眾怒了，那你這個怎麼辦？你們現在管不管？你就回答我管不管，好不好？"],["黃副局長厚銘：有，現在有在管。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，有在管。"],["黃副局長厚銘：未來如果洗防法修正過的話，可以管制的強度會更強。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以你們都依賴這個法。","再來是NCC，NCC最大問題就是你沒有管制電信業者浮濫出售的門號，所有民眾被詐騙都是因為這些人頭帳號預付卡、第二類電信申辦的大量人頭企業門號橫行，才有辦法嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：事實上從去年開始，我們頒布了指引之後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們現在都管了，是不是？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對，統統都管了，因為都已經在限制了，包括簡訊、號碼這些，目前整個國際話務量都已經降下來，這些詐騙簡訊、詐騙號碼的話務量已經都逐月在下降，條例的部分只要再針對黃檢察官所講的黑莓卡，黑莓卡的部分因為過去確實是沒有在處理，那這個條例已經在處理黑莓卡。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，我不能浪費太多時間，不然你書面回覆。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那接著我們就看，你說降下來，我們真的希望詐騙要銷聲匿跡在臺灣。","最後一個是數發部，數發部是只負責發展，不負責監管嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：我們也會負責監管。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以數發部，最後一個問題，數發部你要發展一個「打詐通報查詢網」，請問跟內政部警政署的「165全民防騙網」有什麼不同？"],["林次長宜敬：我們的分工是這樣子，因為內政部警政署這邊是針對已經發生犯罪，甚至於有財損的狀況，它會接受處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：他們是處理受害者，你們是預防的？"],["林次長宜敬：我們是預防的，就是說我們在網路……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這不能整合起來嗎？為什麼中央政府花錢都不手軟的？"],["林次長宜敬：我們這個「打詐通報查詢網」的目的就是要整合，我們會利用科技的方法，當民眾報案的時候……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不、不，你要整合，你會整合內政部警政署的嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：就是我們會自動分案，利用科技的方法，認為那個是已經要報案了，我們會趕快轉到165那個地方，然後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們雖然是兩個單位，但你會整合在一起就對了。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那我們拭目以待。謝謝！"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","下一位請陳亭妃委員。","跟各位委員報告，因為下午要逐條，大家的時間要掌控一下，好不好？不要超過時間，拜託，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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Taiwan，這個數據確不確實？"],["郭部長智輝：不只。"],["王委員定宇：不只，那應該更高喔！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["王委員定宇：應該更高，因為現在在暫估，目前AI全球產值可能會從1,000億美金，到2030年會達到將近1兆6,000億美金，會成長16倍，所以NVIDIA也好，AMD也好，如果他們選擇投資臺灣，不管做企業總部或做什麼的，對臺灣來講是一個肯定，更是一門大生意嘛。就部長的了解，現在NVIDIA跟AMD在臺灣的投資是定案了只是在選址，還是在考慮中？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上，我所了解的程度是這樣，都在考慮中。"],["王委員定宇：還沒有確定？"],["郭部長智輝：還沒有確定。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們應該要提供更多的誘因讓它落腳在我們這裡。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是我們希望的。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為我昨天看到郭部長有表達，等於是你會去說服他們投資臺灣，因為這也是經濟部長的工作，因為它來的話，在經濟上不管是產值、聚落，或者各方面技術的提升，這是第一個價值。第二個價值是在地緣政治上，像黃仁勳講臺灣是值得投資的地方、臺灣是安全的地方，其實這對國際的投資者不管是資金、不管是直接投資或間接投資，都是很重要的意義跟價值。部長目前為止有沒有跟他們兩位接觸到？"],["郭部長智輝：我有接觸到。"],["王委員定宇：兩個都有了？所以你認為落腳臺灣的機會大還是小？"],["郭部長智輝：NVIDIA來講的話，我想從他前幾天的表現，一直在promote臺灣，我認為他……"],["王委員定宇：他不能夜市吃一吃，到時候不投資那也不好看。"],["郭部長智輝：他喜歡吃夜市應該就是會對我們臺灣很好，他在那天所秀的影片，其實最後那一段通通是在介紹臺灣。"],["王委員定宇：他把所有廠商以及另外列出17家大學，都跟臺灣有關係。"],["郭部長智輝：他說感謝臺灣，因為臺灣能夠提供他這個資源，我想所有的投資，就是不管他的情懷怎樣，這個心理距離是非常重要。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我接下來要進入我的正題了，我剛才還打電話給黃偉哲市長，所以我身上還背一個黃偉哲市長，臺南是值得投資的地方，我有準備臺南的優點，列了一個這麼長的卷軸，我剛才看到有其他委員有寫，那個太短了，我們臺南優點太多了，曾文生次長，我們臺南尤其沙崙這邊的水跟電，他在那邊不管是盤點或是綠推辦，那時候做了很多事情。當然做一個部長，你的著眼點是全臺灣，但是你對科技業的熟悉，你來自於南臺灣，我們希望這個可以落腳在南臺灣，特別是臺南。","那臺南有哪些利基可以吸引黃仁勳？第一個我來講的是歸仁沙崙，目前我們經濟部或是科技部在那邊都有著墨很多，沙崙周邊光陽明交大就有10公頃的閒置土地，成大也有10公頃的閒置土地，距離高鐵只有3分鐘，距離高鐵只有3分鐘，未來臺南捷運的終點站也在那個地方，目前有兩條高速公路及一條快速道路，旁邊還有二百多公頃台糖可以開發的閒置的國有土地，所以第一個優點是我們那邊地準備好了。","第二個是水電基礎建設無虞，這個就是曾文生次長當時做的事情，你看臺灣水庫最多就在臺南，我們光這3座水庫就有6萬6,800萬噸的儲水；另外我們還有再生水廠總共有4座，再生水可以提供使用，我們海淡廠也做了。在電的部分，我們已經在2024年突破4GW，部長對綠電也很內行，很多高科技公司必須再生能源，所以臺南的綠電充足，臺南的水電基礎設施沒有問題，交通沒有問題。第三個，南科是全球最大的3奈米、5奈米基地，就在這個地方。第四個，我們旁邊有陽明交大、成大，我們這方面的人才庫培養充足。第五個，中研院、工研院、國研院、量子所等等，包含成大醫院沙崙園區，都在高鐵3分鐘的圈子裡面。再加上中央政府，我相信郭部長會支持，過去這也是國家重要政策。黃偉哲市長特別請我帶來這句就是臺南市會全力配合中央，我們希望能夠落腳在我們那邊。第七個，我剛才講交通都完備了，最後我要講一個，就是我們雙語學校一些基礎設施都完成以外，我們那邊東西很好吃，喜歡吃夜市的人會特別喜歡臺南，臺南東西最好吃，加上黃仁勳、蘇姿丰他們跟羅家都是我們臺南人。以上這十點還寫不完啦！我的卷軸送給部長帶回去。","最後，我是不是可以拜託部長，NVIDIA跟AMD在可以的範圍內，能不能鼓勵他們善用這個，從蔡總統到賴清德總統都跟大南方計畫的旗艦就是在臺南歸仁沙崙，能不能鼓勵他們往這邊來落腳？部長，我剛才唸完了，現在換你回應。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我想花若盛開，蝴蝶自來，他們兩位……"],["王委員定宇：蝴蝶要用趕的啦！還要用捕蚊燈啦！"],["郭部長智輝：但是以臺南人來講的話，心理距離會比較短，我想我如果是他啦，心理距離這麼短，應該會做個抉擇……"],["王委員定宇：心理距離，好像你在博士論文有寫到。"],["郭部長智輝：對，心理距離是我博士論文的……"],["王委員定宇：就我的印象，心理距離是你博士論文的東西。曾文生次長，我剛才講的優點都是真的嘛！"],["主席：都是假的啦！"],["王委員定宇：都是真的，你不能因為你高雄人就這樣子……"],["主席：你剛剛所講那3個水庫，其實有兩個水庫的水是從我們高雄來的。"],["王委員定宇：沒關係，那個水管有通，我們都可以接過來，嘉義在我們的北邊……"],["主席：所以你3個水庫的水，一個是嘉義，兩個是高雄。"],["王委員定宇：部長，不要被這兩位一個高雄、一個嘉義的影響，臺南是首選，AMD跟NVIDIA如果能夠來臺南，我們地方到中央一定鼎力配合。"],["主席：好啦，你時間到了啦，你一個臺南的比不過我們經濟委會有4個高雄的，你現在是在這裡嗆聲喔？","謝謝王定宇委員。","接下來我們請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩郭智慧部長來請郭部長站到現在還好啦"},{"start":28.871,"end":54.216,"text":"今天應該是你第一次業務報告嘛沒錯我今天帶了一個很長的卷軸我會增加你很長的份量請你見諒部長是從南部到北部打拼的從台灣的最南端那你在科技業在運動方面都有涉獵所以我今天只問一個主題這個AI現在很熱的是NVIDIA跟AMD他們人都在台灣"},{"start":55.731,"end":74.682,"text":"我請教第一個問題是NVIDIA跟AMD投資台灣的意義是什麼對我們在經濟上的意義在地緣政策上的意義因為你在業界這麼久的話你的分析這代表的價值跟意義是什麼這兩家公司來投資台灣我想最重要的是我們台灣擁有這方面的這個資源"},{"start":76.704,"end":83.871,"text":"那天電電工會有分析說全球AI有四分之一是made in Taiwan"},{"start":96.939,"end":124.058,"text":"這個數據確不確實不只不只應該更高對應該更高因為現在在戰孤就是說目前AI全球產值可能會從1000億美金到2030年會達到一兆將近6000億美金會成長16倍所以NVIDIA也好AMD也好如果他們選擇投資台灣不管做企業總部或做什麼的對台灣來講是一個肯定更是一門大生意那"},{"start":125.939,"end":147.527,"text":"就部長的了解現在NVIDIA跟AMD他們在台灣的投資是定案了只是在選址還是在考慮中基本上我所了解的程度是這樣都在考慮中還沒有確定所以我們應該要提供更多的誘因讓他落腳在我們這裡"},{"start":148.686,"end":164.573,"text":"對,因為我昨天有看到郭部長有表達說你會去等於是說服他們投資台灣因為這也是經濟部長的工作因為在經濟上的話他來的話不管是產值、聚落或者各方面技術的提升這是第一個價值"},{"start":165.888,"end":191.31,"text":"第二個價值是在地緣政治上像黃仁勳講臺灣是值得投資的地方臺灣是安全的地方其實這對國際的投資者不管是資金或者是不管是這個直接投資或直接投資都是很重要的意義跟價值所以部長目前為止有沒有跟他們兩位接觸到我有接觸到兩個都有了所以你認為落腳臺灣的機會大還是小"},{"start":194.721,"end":213.414,"text":"MVDA來講的話我想從他前幾天的表現一旦一直在Promote臺灣我認為他不能夜市吃一吃到時候不投資也不好幹他喜歡吃夜市應該就是會對我們臺灣有很好他在那天所秀的那個影片其實最後那一段"},{"start":214.255,"end":214.655,"text":"我剛才打電話給黃偉哲市長"},{"start":237.375,"end":258.405,"text":"所以我身上還背一個黃偉哲市長台南是值得投資的地方我有準備台南的優點列了一個這麼長的卷帳我剛才看到有其他委員有寫那個太短了我們台南優點太多了曾文森市長我們台南尤其沙崙這邊的水跟電他一手在那邊不管是盤點綠推辦那時候做了很多事情所以"},{"start":259.434,"end":259.594,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":279.156,"end":294.372,"text":"歸人目前沙崙我們的我們經濟部也好科技部在那邊都有琢磨很多沙崙周邊光陽明交大就有10公頃的閒置土地成大也有10公頃的閒置土地距離高鐵只有3分鐘"},{"start":295.493,"end":322.2,"text":"具體高鐵就三分鐘未來臺南捷運的終點站也在那個地方目前有兩條高速公路一條快速道路所以這一個旁邊還有200多公頃臺唐可以開發的閒置的國有土地所以第一個優點我們那邊地準備好了第二個水電這個基礎建設無虞這個就曾文森這個次長當時做的事情你看我們"},{"start":323.16,"end":351.854,"text":"台灣的水庫最多在我們台南我們光這三座水庫就有66800萬噸的儲水另外我們還有再生水廠總共有四座再生水可以提供使用那另外電的部分我們海淡廠也做了電的部分我們目前已經在2024年突破4GW也就是說綠電也很內行很多高科技公司必須再生能源"},{"start":353.094,"end":376.093,"text":"臺南的綠電充足臺南的水電基礎設施沒有問題交通沒有問題那第三個南科是全球最大的3奈米5奈米基地就在這個地方南科然後呢第四個呢我們旁邊有陽明交大成大我們的這方面的人才庫培養充足第四個第五個呢"},{"start":377.074,"end":402.647,"text":"中研院公研院國研院量子所等等等等包含成大醫院沙崙園區都在高鐵3分鐘的圈子裡面再加上中央政府我相信部長會支持過去這是國家重要政策黃偉哲特別請我帶來這句就是臺南市會全力配合中央我們希望能夠讓他落腳在我們那邊第7個交通都完備了那"},{"start":404.167,"end":432.579,"text":"最後最後來講一個就是我們雙語學校一些基礎設施都完成以外我們那邊東西很好吃喜歡吃夜市人會特別喜歡臺南臺南東西最好吃那加上黃南勳跟蘇之鋒他們跟羅家都是我們臺南人以上這10點還寫不完我這卷軸待會送給部長我是不是最後可以拜託部長NVIDIA跟AMD在可以的範圍內能不能鼓勵他們善用"},{"start":433.419,"end":435.102,"text":"部長,我剛才念完了,現在換你回應"},{"start":447.989,"end":470.689,"text":"謝謝委員,我想這個花若盛開,蝴蝶自然,心理距離比較短,我想我若是他,心理距離這麼短,應該會有選擇心理距離好像是你博士論文有寫的心理距離是我博士論文的我印象心理距離是你博士論文的東西我剛才講的優點都是真的"},{"start":474.448,"end":482.362,"text":"你不能因為你高雄人這樣子你剛剛那個水庫三個水庫留兩個水庫的水是從我們高雄來的沒關係那個水管有通我們都可以接過來所以"},{"start":484.022,"end":487.865,"text":"臺南是首選AMD跟NVIDIA如果能夠來臺南我們地方到中央一定鼎力配合"}]}},{"id":"153628","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153628","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98f5c419becfdcec4ca6cabf0dc0d1a8b7fc6f3e651eb00659ced9b5e91fca9c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:19:44 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by step怎麼做。"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們應該在這個一個半月內就可以完成。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個半月內？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個半月內，可以跟全國國人說，因為這可能有補助計畫、可能有培訓計畫，所以一個半月內會提出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我想可以吧，應該可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以？確定？"],["郭部長智輝：是，確定。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那就期待部長一個半月的時間，也請相關計畫給本席以及經濟委員會的委員，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來請王定宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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Center，但是在整個計畫中，我們對於這個資料中心、運算中心好像沒有很大的著墨，我們要發展這個不需要很大的資料中心跟運算中心嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實在新竹國網中心已經有了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：國網中心？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不好意思！請主席再給我30秒。如果資料中心需要有龐大的計算力，相對的也要有非常龐大、穩定的電力，所以臺灣缺電嚴重這件事對未來AI的發展是一大隱憂，但這應該不是你們的事情啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以我們會協調經濟部來做這個事。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我在這邊是提醒你們注意這個部分。所以你們的資料中心跟運算中心整個都在國網中心？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國網中心是我們國研院下面的一個研發中心，它會建置資料中心，資料中心裡面會有運算設備，就是我們講的超級電腦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK！謝謝！"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員，主委請回。","我們接下來請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","我們請蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","我們請吳春城、吳春城、吳春城委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有吳春城委員、李柏毅委員、鍾佳濱委員、林倩綺委員、牛煦庭委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 (AI)推動現況與未來\n方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.24846875,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.26096875,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.254093750000003,"end":31.688468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.68409375,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.70846875000001,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.08784375,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.32096875,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.45159375,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.75534375000001,"end":89.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.83971875,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.92409375000001,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.75784375,"end":101.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.44971875,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.86471875000001,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.89409375000001,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.70721875,"end":155.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.65221875,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.64284375,"end":165.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.69346875000002,"end":162.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.31346875,"end":163.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.87034375000002,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.61284375000002,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.68034375000002,"end":164.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.84909375,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.04721875,"end":175.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.50159375,"end":181.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.39971875,"end":181.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.60596875000002,"end":191.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.75221875000003,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.18659375000001,"end":193.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.19471875000002,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.97096875000003,"end":195.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.76409375,"end":195.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.81471875000003,"end":205.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.65721875000003,"end":209.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.54284375,"end":207.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.65221875,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.09096875,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.47471875000002,"end":212.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.02721875,"end":213.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.04409375,"end":213.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.21284375000002,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.93846875000003,"end":214.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.97221875000002,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.60846875000001,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.50284375,"end":222.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.42659375000002,"end":253.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.45971875,"end":256.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.47221875000002,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.00784375,"end":278.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.88096875,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.90721875,"end":281.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.13471875,"end":290.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.54346875000005,"end":284.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.68596875000003,"end":304.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.89096875,"end":302.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.86096875000004,"end":307.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.58221875000004,"end":307.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.55221875,"end":311.07096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.485,"end":29.479,"text":"謝謝主席本席先請我們葉次長數位部好我們請數發部葉次長委員好次長好因為本席本來這個可能沒有要找您但剛剛聽到我們邱委員的質詢是我想招商第一名連續3年5年我可以先請教你全台灣招商第一名是哪個縣市"},{"start":30.579,"end":42.19,"text":"這是有統計的新竹縣新竹的科學園區我想這也是全國知名的剛剛講到輝達黃仁勛總裁昨天才一個新聞他要來新竹縣落腳所以AI園區最重要"},{"start":56.463,"end":83.873,"text":"有先天後天的條件跟資源的新竹縣所以我請您您是剛上任嗎?不是本來就一直在數位部那您應該可以了解新竹科學園區的資源那邊的廠商加上我們那邊的腹地所以我花一點點時間也希望次長可以來了解你們在做整個的規劃的時候新竹縣"},{"start":84.853,"end":90.598,"text":"我們新竹地區也請你們慎重考慮我們所有的規劃都不會漏掉新竹這樣對對對對對好謝謝請您回座本期請這個國科會吳主委好有請吳主委"},{"start":100.782,"end":117.989,"text":"委員好吳主委好本期看到你們的報告裡面有講到我們國科會從去年4月開始推動了一個叫可信任生成式的AI對話引擎這個是要念泰德嗎?"},{"start":118.902,"end":120.884,"text":"你們說契金獲得初步成果,它已經可以與CHAT GPT 3.5相當。"},{"start":141.625,"end":160.731,"text":"哇 這個我要了解怎麼評估的還有現在我問了很多人好像沒有人知道那你已經說可以與確的GPT3.5相當你回答一下好不好主委剛上任還不知道這個可能前期研發的是不是這是副主委嗎我們執密科技辦的執行秘書"},{"start":166.346,"end":166.486,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":192.159,"end":208.798,"text":"有哪些人用過?有哪些人用過?還在研發階段?我們現在在4月15號公開之後應該是有快18000個download這樣子所以現在可以給我們大家去download試用是不是?不過目前的使用"},{"start":210.46,"end":234.076,"text":"您先確認是不是可以給大家下載是公開的我們在那個軟體都找得到嗎在那個Hug & Face對可以找到公開的所以現在有一萬多人試用過這樣是我們真的要來用看看再來就是本席想請教主委我們如果要發展AI"},{"start":235.037,"end":256.138,"text":"我們需要很大型的data center但是我們在整個計畫中大家我們對於這個資料中心運算中心好像沒有很大的琢磨像我們發展這個我們不需要很大的這些資料中心跟運算中心嗎有我們其實在新竹國網中心已經有了"},{"start":256.658,"end":257.418,"text":"所以我們會協調經濟部來做這個事"},{"start":281.169,"end":281.329,"text":"謝謝徐欣"}]}},{"id":"153626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98015490eed699701c84a12a82c262ca10fc6f3e651eb0065925eacfc5404eae215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:12:44 - 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本席想再邀請部長 請邱部長"},{"start":13.444,"end":38.242,"text":"部長好,先恭喜你,但是我們首先要面對這個問題因為台灣洗腎的人很多,所以現在不能睡這個健康很危險而且這是很棘手的問題,所以這個事情屬於到目前為止但在你還沒有出國的時候,還沒有回國的時候我們也緊急的調度就是進口"},{"start":39.403,"end":39.583,"text":"請做說明。"},{"start":60.028,"end":81.527,"text":"請說明跟委員報告那這一次經過那個FDA核准專案進口的量加上我們最後專案核定的健保核價大概影響金額大概在兩億多兩億多嗎那兩億多總共的數量是多少大概在400萬瓶左右400萬瓶那400萬瓶你足以應對嗎"},{"start":84.279,"end":104.929,"text":"當然因為這個是一部分另外一部分在請國內的廠商增產那個是另外一塊因為還是要讓國內的廠商有這個把他的產能拉高的機會部長你聽到了這個訊息那為什麼平白無故會要再緊急專案進口沒有辦法"},{"start":105.769,"end":119.435,"text":"所以我們這2億多、400萬瓶就極價格是兩倍至三倍這個價格你想民眾聽到他們作何感想因為本期還是要繼續請問緊急狀況會不會成為常態化"},{"start":123.539,"end":135.207,"text":"請教請說明會不會成為常態化你如果沒有福底收心你沒有一個完善的一個制度你會不會成為常態化一次就兩億多怎麼辦會不會常態化本席請教我想每一個危機我們都一定要做教訓"},{"start":144.571,"end":166.42,"text":"我一定要做教訓,所以我們不能刪書啊!對,你的醫療財政,你的穩健供應,你病患的權益啊!你不能讓洗身的不能洗啊!當然當然,所以他會不會常態化?你說了必須要有制度,要有方法,那請教制度跟方法你怎麼做改善?請做說明。"},{"start":168.496,"end":174.628,"text":"如果有這次的經驗我們當然就會更加的預防性的,譬如說當然我不是經濟學專家"},{"start":177.953,"end":199.106,"text":"當然是那個是不是市佔率的問題但是有時候這是一種自然的因為永豐這個藥廠據我醫師朋友的瞭解他們服務得非常好你要他送到哪裡他就送到哪裡方便就自然用去接現在這樣要怎麼做接嘛大家平穩很好政府控制不住所以變成市佔率轉了現在"},{"start":205.349,"end":222.664,"text":"作為政府 我們的負責是要讓我們的市民更早 了解、關心另外就是... 回答 也不要隨便回答因為這個是包括的我們的醫療財政 穩定的一個公益 跟病患的一個權益"},{"start":224.245,"end":244.887,"text":"這三項是最基本的都不能有所減免所以在這樣的情況之下我還是給你功課我相信你來自異界你也來自民意代表你很清楚但是我們要的是不要變為常態化要怎麼你所謂的當然當然要怎麼樣的方案出來"},{"start":245.848,"end":267.114,"text":"你去研擬那個方案出來好不好?因為本席最怕的就是變為常態化我這樣就很恐怖的啊好不好?好不好?因為命就是一點都不能打折的健康不能一點醫療是一點都不能打折的啊那你多久方案可以告訴本席?可以給我們?你去研擬沒關係本席還是希望要有政策性的多久時間可以告訴我們你怎麼樣去調整"},{"start":272.861,"end":294.33,"text":"你告訴我們供應也很好什麼都很好除了這個狀況要多花了兩三億緊急調度國外400萬瓶三個禮拜好不好三個禮拜研議方案怎麼樣讓蘇伊可以恢復不要讓他緊急狀況成為常態化這太恐怖了好不好三個禮拜給我們方案要怎麼做"},{"start":295.39,"end":322.082,"text":"好部長這一次您辛苦了到這個WHA雖然是在外面但是本期看到你接受訪問的時候你接受訪問的時候那你也說了未來的挑戰恐怕會更嚴峻喔你是這麼說喔你在日內瓦的時候接受你所謂的更嚴峻到底是什麼回事你一講更嚴峻大家在國內以為說我們就沒機會了"},{"start":324.463,"end":346.785,"text":"怎麼回事呢?這是根據我醫療團隊過去的戰役。是。這1、20年來我也代表醫界在參加世界相關的會議裡面。我們發現中國的策略從以前很硬,現在變得很軟硬兼施。他們也付出了很多的"},{"start":348.615,"end":349.576,"text":"所以我們應該正面來想即使這樣的槍"},{"start":367.173,"end":392.538,"text":"更加的嚴謹,但是我們得到的友誼、得到的支持其實是更多的。其實部長你談到這裡本席非常肯定你的就是說我覺得一個政府那你必須要將真實的事情告訴民眾這是本席對你的肯定而不是只有擦脂抹粉得不到答案對不對所以就成如剛剛第一個議題一樣我希望要有政策"},{"start":393.879,"end":417.681,"text":"這個才是我們理性討論的精髓所以本期希望就是說在臺灣的醫療非常好我們的健保也很有名那我們包括在防疫的過程當中我們也是全國上下一致不分藍綠白全部大家一起來所以我們現在以你的智慧除了你告訴我們越來越遠近以外你還有什麼方案"},{"start":418.762,"end":443.53,"text":"你還得到了那麼多的友誼你還有什麼方案告訴我們你這個議題也順便資料給我好嗎我們一起加油開個檢討會來把所有的以後會做得更積極的對所以也就是說你臺灣在國際上你要怎麼樣謀取更多的支持跟重視這個是我們有什麼籌碼請你把你研討就這一次"},{"start":444.25,"end":445.251,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的發言 那現在休息30分鐘後下午"}]}},{"id":"153625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c982242e5a81789a19584a12a82c262ca10fc6f3e651eb0065903e0b134b6616cf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:50:37 - 12:12:42","影片長度":"00:22:05","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:50:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T12:12:42+08:00","duration":1325,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時51分）謝謝。可不可以請邱部長？"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。我在這裡合先敍明，過去我們是好同事，所以情誼沒問題，但是今天在這裡，你已經是部長，不是同事關係，我是受人民之託要來這裡監督政府的立委。"],["邱部長泰源：瞭解。"],["林委員淑芬：所以今天如果態度上有稍微嚴格之處，也請你理解。","我現在要講永豐化學這件事，它被你們停止製造，理由有三個，第一個就是產品檢驗涉及實驗數據造假，而且實驗的數據完整性不足；第二個他們的人員沒有辦法有效執行產品異物檢查作業，也沒有落實承諾的改善措施，執行例行作業；第三個他們重複發生的調製偏差事件，也沒有針對根本原因，執行矯正預防措施等，比如他們的輸液裡面灌水灌很多，有效性不足等等，所以你們要求它停產。但因為它的市占率七成，一個月150萬袋的輸液缺口在這裡。於是食藥署5月20日針對這件事情，發布新聞說食藥署積極調度永豐化學公司停產的替代藥品，確保供應穩定。請問部長，這個新聞稿發布之後，現在的進度如何？要進口嗎？次長說：誰有，他巴不得馬上就飛過去！","其實5月20日那天，食藥署就只是聲明而已，到6月3日缺藥平臺發布大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式之前，整個食藥署神隱，部長現在是沒人可以用了嗎？這個署長早就該下臺了，你沒有讓他下臺，繼續用他，你就要負政治責任！我問你，5月20日到6月3日兩個禮拜，沒有足夠的輸液，醫院裡面等著開刀的病人，診所裡面需要的這些病患，都在那邊等、等、等，因為政府沒有對應的政策，食藥署在那裡擺爛，部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想，我們所有相關的部門，真的每天都在努力。"],["林委員淑芬：努力？請問你們有沒有提出相對應解決缺藥問題的政策？520到6月3日之前，統統都沒有看到？"],["邱部長泰源：是不是請署長把最近的……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，請等一下，你不能叫署長回答，還輪不到吳秀梅！當初成立缺藥平臺有三大目標，它並不是讓人到那裡發洩的！缺藥平臺成立的目標，第一個要解決，第二個要緩解，第三個要預防缺藥。如今這三個功能完全沒有功用！","本席今天也不是要針對這一次的個案，我們是要跟你講，回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件，食藥署5月13日就在缺藥平臺上公告輸液劑型短缺，徵求有意願供應的廠商，然後就什麼都沒有了！整個事件是藥師公會在5月18日發布新聞稿，指出各類手術、洗腎（透析）、醫院住院所必需的生理食鹽水、葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥，是藥師公會去反映的。公會一直跟你們講，這樣會造成各大醫院開刀、住院停擺，洗腎的人怎麼辦？事實上，你們5月13日就知道了這件事，還說「我們缺這些東西，誰有，請趕快來跟我們講」！5月18日藥師公會跟你們說了，這樣會出問題；食藥署當天的回應是什麼，部長知道嗎？食藥署5月18日跟公會及這些醫院診所說「已經協調國內其他廠增加產能，考慮廠商如果調整產線，需要先完成測試評估，現在的做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格，儘量擴充生產，並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣」。要醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思？是要開刀的不要開刀？要洗腎的不要洗腎？要使用輸液的都不要使用嗎？還有國內藥廠4月就知道這個問題，拖到現在都一、兩個月了，國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎？完全沒有！你們現在的對策是要進口。部長，你們的食藥署怎麼了？舊政府用這位食藥署署長，新政府還要繼續用，那你就要把他們的所有責任都承擔起來！我現在跟部長講，食藥署在5月20日發布新聞，說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品，確保供應穩定，之後，都沒有更新進度，也都沒有結果，只有6月3日有一則。","我現在跟部長講，你要聽好，因為我剛才聽別人問你的時候，其實你都不是很狀況內。現在新聞媒體報導輸液的調度進度都來自於次長的臉書──5月21日、5月24日、5月29日、5月31日。次長說，提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺，食藥署會聯繫並提供服務。5月29日還說，健保共擬會要加開會議，同意啟動緊急專案進口，第一批輸液在6月10日前到貨，由食藥署評估專案期長短，健保在專案期間要以平時價格二到三倍支付。所以你們緊急專案進口。這些都不在政府的官方網站公布，次長的臉書變成官方網站、網頁了嗎？像這種調度的重要資訊，衛福部沒有，食藥署沒有，健保署網站、新聞稿統統都沒有，短缺藥品等重要資訊的發布是以次長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎？部長，現在是不是都要看次長的臉書粉專？現在是依次長的粉專為政策發布的主要平臺，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：當然是要以官方的。"],["林委員淑芬：可是你們都沒有。"],["邱部長泰源：應該都有。"],["林委員淑芬：人民要問責的話，是要問次長，你在臉書寫這樣，怎麼跟實際不同？人民要問責是找次長的臉書，還是要找衛福部……"],["邱部長泰源：沒有啦，次長在上面也寫了，那是提醒大家，如果有什麼問題……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你說，不論是缺藥平臺，還是你們食藥署的正式官網，統統都沒有，只有6月3日提到大瓶輸液有，其他統統都沒有。部長，現在是怎麼樣了？是不是以次長的臉書發布為主？"],["邱部長泰源：不是啦，次長是提醒一下，因為……"],["林委員淑芬：次長提醒？你們的官網怎麼都沒有資料？為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個提出相對應的新聞稿或資料呢？不要在這裡說謊喔！藐視國會，我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢，但食藥署竟然在這裡藐視國會！署長曾經叫林淑芬時間到了，下去！我是不會主張把你抓起來關，也不會主張用罰錢來解決；但藐視國會這種事情，衛福部食藥署都發生過。現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣？立委不動，我就不動；輿論不動，我就不動！現在不是腳麻──末梢神經循環有問題，現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞了！","剛才講到健保低價，這個是不是缺藥的理由？部長說我們回去檢討，請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎？你們的次長也不承認有這件事！你們的次長5月20日說，在藥品價格的部分，這次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品，過去九年我們都沒有調降它的價格，而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制時反映想要調高藥價。這是你們的次長在臉書上說的，請問，次長臉書代表官方立場，是不是？食藥署推卸責任說是藥價太低，所以沒人要做，你們的次長說：如果是藥價太低，過去怎麼都沒有反映？我們也沒有調降藥品價格。請問人民若要問責要找誰，請你告訴我！次長的臉書？我講這個是很嚴肅的，次長個人要作秀，我沒有意見；問題是政府的態度是什麼，人民要問責，請問要找誰？部長，現在是要繼續亂下去嗎？整個體制都混亂了，整個國家、整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎樣？","我再問部長，今天食藥署藥品組組長有來嗎？沒有！知道大家今天都會關心這個議題，最重要的藥品組卻沒有到場！對國內藥品市占率不均，或是原料易生短缺的藥品名單，過去有沒有整理統計出來？依據藥事法第二十七條之二所規範的必要藥品有481項，但本席現在不是問你們必要藥品，必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點，我現在問的是另外兩個問題，第一個是市占率不均，是「重頭輕」──單靠一家做，別人都不要做，另一個是原物料易生短缺。這兩部分有沒有清單？藥品組有在做事情嗎？"],["吳署長秀梅：我們之前在評估，其實都有把這個考慮進去，都放在我們的必要藥品清單裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：署長，資料拿出來，你若要回答，用麥克風，列為會議紀錄，明天就把資料交到我們辦公室，因為你說你有做，我就相信你有做，明天馬上交出資料來。"],["吳署長秀梅：因為這份必要藥品清單是新的……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講必要藥品清單，我問你輸液是不是必要藥品？"],["吳署長秀梅：是。"],["林委員淑芬：輸液不在必要藥品的清單上面啦，你都搞不清楚，輸液會在必要藥品清單上面嗎？你當署長當幾年了，連這個都不知道，輸液不在必要藥品清單裡面！部長，你們從署長到組長到部長，什麼事情都不知道，我在這裡要質詢誰？人民要找誰負責？署長自己都搞不清楚，輸液絕對不在必要藥品清單！我跟你講，必要藥品清單是法律規定的，你一定要好好的統計和盤點它有沒有問題。這次出事的輸液就不在必要藥品清單裡面。","所以我才跟你提點兩個，第一個是市占不均，第二個是原料易生短缺。永豐輸液是市占不均的問題，預防藥品因為市占不均或原物料易生短缺的預警機制跟處理機制是什麼？有沒有？你們連這兩樣的統計都沒有，有本事說你們有什麼預警機制和處理機制？有沒有這種機制？就是市占率不均跟原料易生短缺的，有沒有預警機制和處理機制？沒有！請署長用麥克風回答，現在不是站在那裡，立委質詢你，你安靜、傻傻的，就可以「準過」！不行！"],["吳署長秀梅：因為我們就是在必要藥品清單這邊來做評估，評估了以後，有納進來的，我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：這不是在必要藥品清單！"],["吳署長秀梅：因為當時永豐的市占率是40%，我們如果以這樣子去算的話，那還有其他六家……"],["林委員淑芬：當時，現在是七成，過去曾經八成。你再告訴我，市占不均跟原料易生短缺的藥品名單，你覺得應該用什麼當指標？因為市占率高跟原料易生短缺，不一定代表用量大，也有可能是有替代藥品，所以你們有沒有研擬指標應該訂成什麼？你們有去思考過嗎？我想部長不知道，署長，你有沒有思考過？市占率高跟原料易生短缺，如果它的用量不大，而且有其他替代藥品，也不會是問題，那到底要管制什麼、哪些要列為清單、它的指標要怎麼定，你們有想過嗎？"],["吳署長秀梅：如果有替代藥品的……"],["林委員淑芬：有替代藥品的就不用管制了！"],["吳署長秀梅：它本身等於還有其他的藥品可以過來……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在問你這個啦！我就跟你說了，用量不大，有替代藥品的，就不要討論了，它不會產生問題。現在是沒有替代品，用量又很大的，出問題了。你看，現在不是腳麻手麻，是中樞神經傳導都中風了，動不了！就今天這個案例來看，你們4月就知道它沒有獲得展延，沒辦法繼續，因為永豐化學吃定政府，吃定食藥署，吃定衛福部，所以它敢擺爛！它擺爛之後，你們就這樣放它擺爛，要它停產，然後叫洗腎的不要洗腎、叫開刀的不要開刀，叫用輸液的不要用輸液嗎？藥品組是最重要的，藥品組的人員沒來，今天不用被委員質詢，就安靜沒事？藥品組沒有去盤點市占不均或易生短缺會產生問題的藥品？所以你們都「無要無緊」，讓病患自求多福，緣木求魚！","署長剛剛說永豐化學2015年出問題，不只是2015年，它還有其他不良紀錄，你們的藥品組在做什麼？2015年監察院對食藥署提出糾正，2021年他們又出問題，所做的生理食鹽水都不合規定，2023年市占率已經八成了，它的生理食鹽水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物，市占率都已經占八成了，做出來的產品還有黑色懸浮物，我就不要講這個個案了。整個食藥署說因為價格太低，如果調高價格就不會有這個問題，別家也會要做。請問，價格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這個事情石耀署在5月20日發布了一個新聞他說我們石耀署積極調度永豐化學公司平產的替代藥品確保供應穩定 這個新聞稿一發布以後現在進度怎麼樣沒有 要進口"},{"start":139.949,"end":162.441,"text":"市長說的誰有,他發布的就馬上飛過去了5月20,食藥署就只是聲明,只有聲明而已然後到6月3號缺藥平台發布了一個大包裝生理食鹽水供應方式前整個食藥署神明書店,現在這個書店你現在是沒有人可以贏了"},{"start":164.847,"end":188.045,"text":"這件事早就要落台啊!我們如果沒有落台,你繼續因爲你在附近在這邊我問你5月20到6月3號兩個禮拜沒有足夠的輸液然後醫院裡面等著開刀的病人診所裡面需要的大家這些病患都在等等等因為你政府沒有對應的政策食藥署在那裡擺爛不然這樣還不行"},{"start":191.752,"end":202.304,"text":"我想我們所有的相關的部門都真的是每天在努力啦努力請問你有沒有做出相對應解決缺藥的問題的政策520到6月3日之前通通都沒有看到"},{"start":208.482,"end":211.605,"text":"當時成立缺藥平臺有三大目標缺藥平臺不是都要讓人發現欸缺藥平臺成立的目標第一個要解決第二個要緩解第三個要預防缺藥"},{"start":228.542,"end":257.205,"text":"缺藥平台這三個功能完全沒有功用那我今天部長我也不是要針對這一次的個案我們是要跟你講回顧整個永豐化學的輸液事件食藥署在5月5月13日在缺藥平台公告了5月13就公告了輸液畸形短缺徵求有意願供應的廠商然後就沒有了什麼都沒有了"},{"start":257.952,"end":275.462,"text":"整個事件是藥師公會發布新聞稿在5月18日指出各類的手術洗腎的透析醫院住院所必需的身體食鹽水葡萄糖等輸液出現缺藥是藥師公會然後去反映的"},{"start":276.463,"end":291.17,"text":"他一直跟你們講說這樣會造成各大醫院開刀住院停擺然後洗腎的人怎麼辦結果呢5月13日你們就知道你們就跟我們說我們欠這個東西看誰有錢來跟我們說5月18日藥師就跟你們說說這會出問題搞不好你們需要想在5月18當天的回應是什麼你知道嗎部長"},{"start":300.729,"end":321.378,"text":"5月18日施要署告訴這些公會跟這些醫院診所說已經協調國內其他廠增加產能考慮廠商若有調整產線需要先完成測試評估現在做法是請國內廠商就可供應的規格盡量擴充生產並請醫療院所配合調整使用習慣"},{"start":323.139,"end":330.581,"text":"醫療院所調整使用習慣是什麼意思叫開刀的不要開刀叫洗身的不要洗身叫用書意的都不要用嗎然後我們今天在講他講說國內藥廠欸結果現在到4月他們就知道這個問題拖到現在一兩個月了國內藥廠有辦法解決這個缺口嗎完全沒有你們現在對案和這個對策也是要進口"},{"start":354.827,"end":368.832,"text":"拜託 你的食藥署什麼啦就政府用這個食藥署署長新政府還要繼續用那你就要為他們的所有責任都要承擔起來"},{"start":370.342,"end":384.67,"text":"我現在跟你講部長,食藥署在5月20他們發佈一個我剛剛講的他說他們會積極調度停產的替代藥品確保供應穩定的新聞稿以後都沒有更新進度也沒有結果只有6月3號有嘛但是我現在跟你講喔,保證有你聽好喔,現在我剛才聽你白人問你其實是都"},{"start":396.428,"end":399.112,"text":"五月二十一日、五月二十四日、五月二十九日、五月三十一日"},{"start":411.974,"end":437.29,"text":"他們次長說提醒基層診所要上藥品短缺通報平臺食藥署會聯繫並提供服務然後還講到說5月29號公布了健保共理會要加開會議同意啟動緊急專案進口第一批輸液在6月10號前到貨食藥署評估專案期長短在於專案期這個"},{"start":439.091,"end":447.687,"text":"要平時價格二到三倍支付所以你們緊急專案進口這都不是在政府的官方網站公佈的"},{"start":450.724,"end":469.69,"text":"市長的臉書變成官方網站網頁了嗎?這種調度的重要資訊衛福部沒有食藥署沒有健保署網站新聞稿通通都沒有短缺藥品的重要訊息是發布是以市長個人的臉書粉專為準的嗎?現在是要看市長的臉書粉專是不是?現在是依市長的粉專"},{"start":479.569,"end":494.856,"text":"為主政策發布的主要平台,是不是?當然是要以官方的...啊你們都沒有捏?都沒有捏?應該都有啊人民要問責,是要問責次長說你臉書什麼這樣?啊怎麼才是很多天?啊如果要問責是找次長的臉書,還是要找衛福部?"},{"start":502.509,"end":503.129,"text":"市長的臉書發佈為主是不是?"},{"start":531.941,"end":541.184,"text":"沒有啦 次長提醒你官網怎麼都沒有資料為什麼官網都沒有針對這幾個有相對應的新聞稿或資料呢不要在這裡說謊喔 藐視國會我是不主張抓起來關或是罰錢啦但是十一號署經常在這裡藐視國會署長曾經叫林淑芬時間倒了下去"},{"start":560.287,"end":570.973,"text":"我是不會主張把你抓起來關啦 也不會主張用錢、罰錢給你解決啦但是藐視國會這種事情 衛福部、食藥署都壞心鬼"},{"start":572.165,"end":586.87,"text":"現在食藥署對食安藥品的準則是怎麼樣?立委不動,我就不動。輿論不動,我就不動。現在不是咖吧?末梢神經循環有問題。現在是中樞神經傳導已經壞掉了。壞掉了。所以剛才還可以講到健保低價。所以這個是不是缺藥的理由?"},{"start":597.028,"end":622.479,"text":"我對你說這個是我們回去檢討請問健保低價是缺藥的理由嗎?您的次長也不承認有這件事喔你們的次長5月20說在藥品價格的部分這一次因為違反GMP而停產的藥品過去9年我們都沒有調降它的價格而且藥廠也沒有在定期詢問價格調整機制表示說藥廠也沒有反應說想要調高藥價"},{"start":624.977,"end":631.499,"text":"您的署長說的啊,署長臉書說的那我問你,次長臉書是代表官方立場是不是?他說的啊,有您食藥署推卸責任給藥價太低所以沒人要負責您的次長說藥價太低過去怎麼都沒人認我也沒給他們調降藥品價格請問我是要找誰問責啦人民藥問責要找誰,你告訴我次長的臉書"},{"start":657.591,"end":671.556,"text":"我講這個是很嚴肅喔次長要個人 作秀我沒有意見但是你正式人你政府態度是什麼我人民要問責我要找誰保證現在要繼續亂下去嗎整個體制都混亂啦整個國家整個政府運作的體制現在是要怎麼做我再問你勒保證我們食藥署的藥品組昨天有來嗎"},{"start":689.003,"end":707.09,"text":"藥品組主長有來嗎?沒有今天你知道大家會關心這個議題最重要藥品組都沒有來他過去有沒有整理統計國內藥品市佔率不均或者是原料益生短缺的藥品名單來有沒有"},{"start":712.49,"end":739.108,"text":"來,依據藥事法27條之2規範的必要藥品481項但我不是在問你們必要藥品必要藥品本來就要管制、要盤點但我現在問題的是另外兩個第一個,市佔率不均當初如果放一間在做別人都不喜歡做的還有一種是原物料益生短缺有沒有啦?有沒有清單啊?"},{"start":740.988,"end":745.135,"text":"我們之前在評估其實都有把這個考慮進去都放在我們的必要品清單裡面"},{"start":751.373,"end":777.501,"text":"來資料拿出來 署長你如果要回答用麥克風列為會議記錄 然後你要馬上明天就把資料提交到我們辦公室因為你說你有做 我就相信你有做 明天在水搞出來 資料搞出來因為這份必要品清單是新的我不是在講必要品清單 我是跟你講書意是不是必要品"},{"start":778.795,"end":798.874,"text":"蘇毅他不在必要品的清單上面啊你都搞不清楚蘇毅會在必要品清單上面嗎你連這個都不知道你當署長當幾年了蘇毅不在必要品清單裡面"},{"start":801.67,"end":803.092,"text":"人民要找誰負責呢"},{"start":819.086,"end":845.224,"text":"蘇義絕對不是必要品清單所以我跟你講了必要品清單是法律規定的你一定要好好的統計案盤點他有沒有問題可是這次出事的蘇義他就不是必要品清單所以我才跟你提點兩個第一個叫事戰不均第二個叫原料益生短缺永豐蘇義他是事戰不均的問題"},{"start":847.185,"end":862.535,"text":"預防藥品因為施戰不均或原物料一生短缺的預警機制跟處理機制是什麼?有沒有?這兩項的統計就沒有啊!你跟我解釋一下你要怎麼預警機制跟處理機制有沒有?有沒有?有這種機制嗎?"},{"start":869.068,"end":879.395,"text":"市政不均的跟原料一生短缺的有沒有預警機制和處理機制?沒有!現在你用麥克風回答,現在不是站在那裡委員幫你質詢,然後你又點點就可以轉過了!沒有!"},{"start":884.378,"end":909.223,"text":"因為我們就是在必要品清單這邊來做評估那評估了以後有納進來的就說我們這不是必要品清單因為當時永豐的他其實他市佔率是40%所以我們如果以這樣子去算的話那還有其他的當時現在是七成過去曾經八成有六家好來你再告訴我市佔不均和原料醫生短缺的藥品名單的指標你覺得用什麼當指標"},{"start":910.816,"end":939.384,"text":"因為市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺也不一定代表用量大有可能是有替代藥品啊那你有沒有研理指標應該定成什麼?你有沒有去書課過?你有沒有書課過?書訂 我想部長不知道你有沒有思考過市佔率高跟原料醫生短缺如果他用量不大而且有其他替代藥品也不會是問題啊那到底是要管制什麼啊哪些是要"},{"start":940.865,"end":942.206,"text":"現在就是沒有替代品用量又很大出問題了"},{"start":972.321,"end":996.434,"text":"所以你看,不是腳麻手麻麻,總是神經穿斗齁,都中風了,未定未當啦!所以今天以這個案例來看,你們4月就知道了就知道說他沒有獲得展言,沒有辦法繼續,因為永豐化學吃定了你政府,吃定了你S藥署,吃定了你衛福部,所以敢擺爛"},{"start":998.8,"end":1005.345,"text":"可是他擺爛你就這樣子一磅的爛啊你現在給他停產 這樣叫世新的不要世新 開刀的不要開刀 用書意的不要用書意嗎你們藥品組最重要藥品組的人沒有來 今天不用去用這季 今天點點都沒有事情藥品組沒有盤點市站不均或醫生短缺的 這個會產生問題的藥品"},{"start":1022.819,"end":1042.067,"text":"所以你都說沒藥沒金,你沒藥沒金叫大家病患自求多福捏,緣木求雨捏我再說一下,你剛才署長你說永豐化學2015年出問題他不是只有2015年,他的不良紀錄也有,你的藥品組在做什麼"},{"start":1044.275,"end":1069.932,"text":"2015年檢察院提出對食藥署提出糾正2021年他們也還是出問題他們做的生理實驗署都不合規定2023年的去年是戰率已經八成了他的生理實驗水注射液裡面有黑色的懸浮物背上遮出來還有黑色的懸浮物"},{"start":1070.802,"end":1078.168,"text":"我們不要說這個個案啦!你們自己看看,你們整個食藥署都可以說因為價格太低,所以調高價格就不會有這個問題就北京也在做價格太低可以成為製造出這種問題的理由和藉口嗎?保證你們說看看"},{"start":1090.45,"end":1104.309,"text":"我想人民的安全是第一,所以絕對不允許不管價格...人民的安全第一這口號我可以講,現在是政府做什麼,你的食藥署做什麼?你的食藥署覺得價格太低,覺得去跟健保署反映過"},{"start":1105.35,"end":1111.997,"text":"建保署覺得你不來我聽到過嗎?政府是一體 這個問題就是沒人要做 會存一間壟斷 再做一篇 屢屢發生問題這種事情 你做政府的 現在還要有政府政府覺得去協調建保署說 這個問題長久不是辦法 要怎麼解決?"},{"start":1126.872,"end":1131.619,"text":"五月二十九你們的次長說要啟動盤點高風險的藥廠管理負擔他五月二十九臉書啦然後人家採訪他啦"},{"start":1143.095,"end":1147.8,"text":"他說高風險藥廠就是過去茶廠記錄曾經有嚴重缺失的藥廠那未來我們要盤點它未來可能要比較早一點介入這個事情我們未來會重點處理你覺得高風險藥廠的定義是什麼"},{"start":1164.485,"end":1186.962,"text":"委員 那個林委員 因為時間已經超過了 那等一下還有一場要 我要講 我要講 我要講最後一段而已啦我補充一下啦 因為吼 有一個訊息是這樣啦 因為林市長他跟議會密合 他趕快要安撫議會的心 所以有時候他急著發臉書 大家知道要怎麼做 這是用心良苦"},{"start":1187.182,"end":1193.125,"text":"這關這麼簡單都用發言書的喔 這麼簡單喔 大家都可以做 不用意啦 我現在跟你說啦 什麼叫高風險藥廠 你說不出來 你敢知道 過去的茶廠裡面 永豐化學 我們幫你討資料 你跟我們說的喔 永豐化學除了今年嚴重違反GMP之外 在過去6年 沒有任何違反藥事法的記錄"},{"start":1213.868,"end":1218.269,"text":"但是有很多次都是用回收藥品草草結案這是你們的成科每一次藥廠都這樣明明就查到了不法都叫他們回收然後你們就不開法連股票上市的藥廠都可以製造劣質藥你們連行者也不敢啟動徒法不足以自刑"},{"start":1240.936,"end":1262.187,"text":"所以高風險講大話,你如果要說這樣,他沒有違反過藥事法的紀錄,連這個永豐化學你要把它列為高風險,恐怕都還有疑慮高風險指標是什麼?沒錯,你要想一下,你要想要品的品質三項要素,安全、有效、品質"},{"start":1263.368,"end":1290.353,"text":"上市前要查驗,上市後要管理。現在我聽說,我聽說,食藥署嚇到啊,事件這麼嚴重嚇到啊。所以上面有交代下面,例行性檢查、機動性查查、機查強度都要降低。把警鈴拔掉,然後就不會出問題。不查查就沒問題。"},{"start":1292.93,"end":1301.177,"text":"有這件事嗎?你一定說沒有的。現在是要叫稽查組不要再去查。沒有稽查就沒有問題。眼不見為淨。是要這樣嗎?"},{"start":1304.955,"end":1305.295,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"}]}},{"id":"153624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98bb470807a0c704bca6cabf0dc0d1a8b7fc6f3e651eb00659e1f81c3d004d03cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:13:26 - 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Server的部分，臺灣大概就五、六家這些做伺服器的公司可以做。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我要回頭問的是關於中小企業，因為我們現在想要幫中小企業跟部長您討論，有沒有機會提高研發誘因，進一步評估放寬中小企業的研發租稅優惠門檻？因為這件事情……"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["陳委員培瑜：有機會？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：您直接這麼說，那就太好了！所以您的看法是有機會跟財政部積極討論這件事情，讓相關中小企業可以在有這個意願的情況下提高租稅優惠門檻？"],["郭部長智輝：租稅的部分就是導入這個AI的應用，我想這些獎勵是有的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但是現行的獎勵會不會對某一些中小企業來說，其機制還是不夠積極的？"],["郭部長智輝：如果有這一部分的話，我想我們會重新再來討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們辦公室也會持續再跟經濟部討論。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為臺灣有這麼高比例的中小企業，關於這件事情，我相信走在數位轉型的路上，我們不希望整個臺灣隊裡有一些隊友被「落」掉了，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝委員。其中我有提出來一個，到117年為止，對AI應用的工程師的部分，我們希望能夠培養20萬人，基本上大部分都是給中小企業的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，除了這個部分，還有剛剛我提到人才培訓的部分，如果有些員工願意去上課，而且中小企業也願意支付某些費用去支持自己的員工提升專業能力，而企業這樣子投入的員工訓練成本是不是也可以作為租稅優惠？這都需要找財政部討論，因為我們今天時間有限，就沒有辦法做這麼積極的討論，但是不是有機會請經濟部跟財政部，我們一起來討論？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝委員。根據我們同仁的表示，這些費用是沒有上限。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒有上限？好，所以相關的細節或是怎麼協助小企業做相關的租稅減抵，我們會再跟經濟部、財政部討論，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們來看下一個，部長今天壓力很大，這個比較輕鬆一點，部長你知道嗎？你是臺灣史上第一個在棒球維基上面有條目的經濟部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有很光榮？我都替部長覺得光榮。卓院長前兩天在總質詢時回答莊瑞雄委員說，人人都是體育人，更進一步來說，我會認為支持體育發展，而且臺灣要把相關的體育部門升級這件事情，我們可以說部部都是體育部，站在經濟部的角度，站在您過往關注的專業，我們有沒有機會來看這件事情？先跟您分享，關於目前您的球隊，我們調了資料出來，你不僅有幫選手保勞保，還有做在職訓練。所以請問部長，你是不是認為您的球隊的球員由球隊來幫忙保勞保是理所當然的？就是您自己的球隊。"],["郭部長智輝：這是我的員工啊！"],["陳委員培瑜：對，那是你的員工。那我們來看下一題，我們一直在跟經濟部聊，國營事業如果不願意幫自己的球員加保勞健保，甚至威脅可能不排除解散，部長你怎麼看？就您剛剛那句話，那是你的員工，那對於我們台電底下這些球員，他們把這些非正式的、視為是體育幹事……始終不願意幫他們加保，請他們自己到外面去加保，然後台電來支付這個費用……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，應該不是這樣子，委員可能有點誤會，他們是練習生，不是正式的員工，所以沒有辦法幫他們加保。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是名義上，這個細節我們會再跟部長討論，之後更多台電球員的狀況，我們也會再跟你討論。可是之前我們也去問過勞動部了，勞動部也說不應該迴避雇主責任這件事情。好，因時間有限，我們之後會再跟經濟部討論。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：也希望部長您站在您原本就有球隊這個角度來協助這些球員。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我願意……"],["陳委員培瑜：最後一個，輕鬆一點，我們來看這個PTT上的討論，準經長郭智輝參與職棒跳票這件事情……"],["郭部長智輝：這件事情是這樣子的，我其實有很多的願望都沒有辦法達成。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，那你現在是部長了，我們有沒有機會用經濟部的角度來支持國內的體育跟運動發展？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我以前是棒協的副理事長，所以我想讓我的經濟部所屬的公司都有球隊，都有一個棒球隊或者是其他的球隊。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們可以期待經濟部在您當部長的任內會全力支持用經濟部的角度、經濟部的資源、經濟部的視角來協助臺灣的體育跟運動產業的發展？"],["郭部長智輝：我個人認為啦，如果企業是B2C的商業模式，應該都要有球隊。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以您會以過去曾經是業界身分去跟大家分享、鼓勵促進這件事情？我們辦公室希望看到更多的成效，我相信有更多的委員也會支持這樣的命題。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長，那我們一起努力，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["郭部長智輝：一起努力。謝謝"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。請部長回座休息。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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葉次長"},{"start":21.109,"end":41.476,"text":"吳志偉你好從報告來看人才的衝勢在你們在2018、2021臺灣AI行動計畫裡推動成果臺清教程AI創新研究中心那除了這四所大學之外還沒有在未來比如說中山或其他國立大學有設立AI創新研究中心的計畫"},{"start":43.508,"end":63.418,"text":"那個計畫是在好幾年前啊現在我們就是經過那段時期的發展以後其實現在我們國會資助的全國的這個AI的研究各個學校都已經有了應該每一個國立大學、世紀大學都要普設所謂的這個AI創新研究中心你們這個經費你們來協助或這個中央來協助那你們在"},{"start":68.08,"end":98.08,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":98.868,"end":116.091,"text":"委員長,你再職的培訓部分?再職培訓我們會協助包含勞動部、數位發展部。你那個詳細的計畫、執行計畫再提供給我一份。好,謝謝。不可能說那麼久。那你要強化中小企業導入AI轉型。這個要怎麼做?"},{"start":118.064,"end":132.811,"text":"總經理小企業導入AI轉型其實是需要我們的科技產業來協助你怎麼做你要講齁我有講過我在上任時的那個記者會我已經宣布我在三個月內要提出這個方案"},{"start":134.031,"end":137.895,"text":"如何去促使AI在中小企業落實轉型?"},{"start":137.895,"end":150.526,"text":"有沒有詳細的執行狀況跟工作計畫?我有答應三個月要推出,也就是我要跟包含速發部、經濟部、教育部一起合作,我們會推出這個方案。速發部葉市長"},{"start":154.552,"end":181.898,"text":"蘇發部是委員好你們報告裡面AI生態園區這很好我瞭解是在北又一座南一座對不對我們大概不會用我們的概念就是我們這個當然第一個是部長提出的概念我們還在跟國發會在商量國發會有提出這個概念在他們這個工作報告裡面有提到所以這個未來你們急速要進速去推動我沒有意見"},{"start":183.138,"end":208.468,"text":"那南我是強力希望設在高雄是首先跟委員報告就是我們現在這個園區的規劃會著重在生態而不是園區當然是生態啦生態意思就是說這些產業它不管在哪裡我們希望能夠投注資源讓它能夠串接在一起所以可能重要的地方不是選址而是說這些產業要提供給它足夠的算力足夠的資料跟足夠的但是你要有相關的產業都在周邊嘛"},{"start":210.297,"end":237.471,"text":"對當然這個產業的聚落的實體發展因為特別是AI產業它跟國際的廠大概都會有很大的連結我們不會強制要求這個某一個廠家他搬到哪一個地方去我瞭解但是你要現狀有AI聚落已經成形了或未來會有很多的對它就是對我們重點投資的對象招商能力對這個AI或者是這個半導體招商最積極最有效率就是陳其邁市長嘛"},{"start":238.311,"end":239.793,"text":"市役大廠輝達有可能在設預算中心,未來蘇文麥可也可能,對不對?"},{"start":253.37,"end":280.691,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":281.617,"end":300.694,"text":"只要有AI的…天理就是說我們要知道天理這個變幻莫測但是可超出在我的我們要積極努力所以我一而再再而三希望說你們慎重考慮設在這個高雄最好的條件"},{"start":301.863,"end":320.074,"text":"我們不會設立一個實體的園區但是只要有AI產業的地方那高雄是我們非常重要的一個部分我們副市長羅達是有點清楚啊對 那另外我們這個前任的這個次長也在當高雄的副市長所以我們都有非常的好的聯繫沒有問題所以這個再一分鐘你那個VPN的問題啊"},{"start":322.605,"end":340.81,"text":"VPN的問題這個怎麼樣去防止這個比如說你要怎麼樣導入AI預防性通報下架你們都有這個情況現在很多都是用VPN繼續在使用這個論壇那你們對VPN這部分還有很多的廣告這變成監管的漏洞這個你們怎麼去處理"},{"start":342.495,"end":367.052,"text":"首先跟委員報告我們的理解就是VPN他並不是一個產業但很多產業那他都有可以產出VPN那你沒辦法不是產業就不能管制嗎他沒有辦法就任何大家對於這個資訊系統大概有一定的能力的人他都可以產出VPN那只是說我們不管是從兒少角度來看的話重點是說我們要找到如果是這個兒少主管機關發現的錯誤或是有害的資訊"},{"start":370.834,"end":395.768,"text":"第8條就是說你們可以主動去出去調查那個是從ISP來做阻斷,那不是VPN的問題相同的概念,我希望你們積極可以主動出去去調查等衛福部在進行過程序你們才執行而邵的性剝削的專業認定是在衛福部你們跟衛福部再去討論一下怎麼樣把這個做到最好的效果"},{"start":396.408,"end":415.727,"text":"即使就要預防通報下降在最快時間之內完成對我們會盡快加快這個行政程序沒有問題另外你這個數位發布你現在要通報這個打詐打詐的這個通報網對不對上個月建制打爆通報網通報查詢網那你跟這警政署的這個這個全民詐騙全民防騙網哪裡不一樣"},{"start":418.529,"end":418.709,"text":"主席邱志偉"},{"start":438.176,"end":438.477,"text":"邱志偉委員"}]}},{"id":"153622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153622","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98dc728434382c17a0a6cabf0dc0d1a8b7fc6f3e651eb00659dfcc1bc1b1caef4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:06:33 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剛才在回答前面委員的答覆的時候你有特別提到為了要迎接AI的這個大爆發所以如果電不夠的時候你是支持來蓋新的電廠蓋新的電廠我想應該是包括核電廠吧因為以現有的政策還是說核電廠也會列入考量之一"},{"start":45.768,"end":54.015,"text":"長遠來說,如果核電廠符合我們蓋電廠,蓋核電廠的條件,我認為這是不排除的一個選項。我個人是沒有。"},{"start":62.25,"end":62.37,"text":"王鴻薇"},{"start":85.856,"end":86.216,"text":"目前臺灣的電是夠的"},{"start":103.151,"end":103.191,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":122.096,"end":143.77,"text":"我們現在正是在因應這兩三天的大的變化我們已經開始在調整自己的腳步了所以我們現在在做很多的simulation就是當這個臺灣的數據中心會增加多少當有一天臺灣導入超級電腦的時候我們需要非常大的電力的時候我們目前所規劃的電廠"},{"start":145.811,"end":146.011,"text":"主席"},{"start":163.683,"end":165.124,"text":"所以你現在蓋的不是蓋新電廠,因為光電是遍地開花啊,對不對?"},{"start":181.104,"end":181.164,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":199.138,"end":199.498,"text":"有見到他們嗎?"},{"start":225.452,"end":225.592,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":246.127,"end":246.327,"text":"王鴻薇議員王鴻薇議員"},{"start":268.184,"end":276.667,"text":"就您一個CEO的角色來講那麼綠電的成本一度電多少錢是你認為企業界可以接受的?"},{"start":283.916,"end":283.956,"text":"李漢峰議員"},{"start":298.996,"end":301.397,"text":"李岸峰店開出了第3期開出了6塊錢臺積電都認為太貴因為他要大量的去買店那所以現在他的財務報告沒有辦法做出來所以現在連我們"},{"start":327.244,"end":329.945,"text":"八大航庫在4月底的時候 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郭部長有請來請郭部長好 部長午安"},{"start":29.005,"end":53.661,"text":"這個2050淨零排放跟轉型基本上是蔡總統這個2022年就推出的能源轉型政策那麼2024年賴清德總統就任之後卓院長也把2050的淨零排放跟轉型納入施政方針之中部長您是來自於民間的部長你在擔任崇越集團董事長的時候有沒有說過化石燃料將逐漸從我們習以為常的生活中淡出靈探趨勢則將迎面而來你有沒有講過這樣的話"},{"start":58.288,"end":59.431,"text":"不太記得,我講過很多話"},{"start":63.427,"end":89.706,"text":"有啦,這是你幫人家寫書,這個天下雜誌的書推裡面寫的喔當然嘛,你在崇越集團的治理的時候,其實你是身體力行的去實踐減碳這件事,這個你總有印象吧?嗯,是是嘛對不對?那你甚至有講過,這個不要等到明天喔,減碳這件事從今天就開始行動本期要特別講這個事情的提醒,就是說這個事情即便你今天,現在身為經濟部長這樣子的一個概念,我們希望你把從企業界的概念跟經驗,帶到這個公部門"},{"start":91.547,"end":94.629,"text":"我現在對於委員這個問題不是非常的了解我會快速的來了解這些問題其實這兩張圖表希望部長可以好好了解一下也就是說這個"},{"start":121.4,"end":150.761,"text":"圖表裡面其實你可以看到國家溫室氣體的排放清澈其實你可以發現其實下降的有限1990到2021年的二氧化碳的排放趨勢沒有顯著的在增加不像說90年代增加的非常快速但相對來講在全世界開始要求要下降的時候我們並沒有做到碳排下降這件事情甚至還是微幅的增加部長遇到這樣的大的挑戰我們的做法是什麼"},{"start":153.393,"end":171.318,"text":"我想這個目標我們是非常清楚就是能夠節能減碳那因為這個如果排放的部分沒有減少這個節能減碳還是要非常的努力所以我們大概可以考慮是兩個方向一個就是讓排碳減少一個就是加強這個節能減碳"},{"start":173.058,"end":190.556,"text":"節能減碳對不對所以你可以看到能源部門在這裡面其實扮演非常重要的一個角色所以今天其實有非常多的委員跟你討論國家的能源政策這一件事情那本席今天也是要討論這樣的事情但是我想喔大的方向我們就不用多談了談一下本席選區的事情"},{"start":191.878,"end":206.25,"text":"這個在民進黨政府領導的國家的能源轉型的政策的領導之下桃園其實是最大的受害者為什麼桃園是最大的受害者呢現在我覺得蠻遺憾的部長在業界的時候其實對核能的心態是相對開放的"},{"start":206.63,"end":227.033,"text":"但是近來擔任部長之後好像多了很多的拘束多了很多的包袱本席是認為非常可惜我是希望看到業界這樣子靈活的思維來改變公部門的邏輯這個希望部長可以好好努力為什麼我這樣說呢因為本席的選區 桃園第一選區是火力發電的最大的受災戶"},{"start":228.934,"end":254.27,"text":"在大桃園周邊有十幾個火力發電的機組團團包圍當然桃園是產業重鎮桃園要用電這我們很清楚但是桃園的發電幾乎全部都是火力發電而且不只是有發電這其中很多的發電廠還都有擴大的計畫一個盧竹的海湖長生一個龜山的國光火力兩個電廠都在本席的選區偷偷摸摸的在進行擴建本席認為期期以為不可"},{"start":254.81,"end":270.408,"text":"為什麼不可呢?倒也不是講說一定是要用核能嘛而是關鍵是我們剛剛講到這張圖表大家都希望二氧化碳的碳排能夠往下降而能源部門火力發電又剛剛好是這個二氧化碳碳排的大宗"},{"start":271.169,"end":292.689,"text":"如果我們的部長我們的經濟部希望未來走向淨零轉型但是卻放任火力電廠在各地繼續擴建不只是對區域的不公平跟不正義不只是有空污的危害其實對於國家總體淨零轉型其實他也是很大的一個障礙部長這樣子的狀況這樣子的矛盾經濟部現在有沒有什麼解決的方式"},{"start":294.367,"end":311.237,"text":"報告委員,我們對於這一步的話,原來的規劃就是以綠能權力來發展,那麼綠能才是符合建立這個目標的,那這個目前所規劃的這一部分是在"},{"start":312.037,"end":314.539,"text":"臺電會根據用電的預估推估6年以後或10年以後大概我們用電多少"},{"start":343.158,"end":343.478,"text":"來做他的發電廠"},{"start":361.892,"end":383.496,"text":"這個國家的重要的發展方針火力電廠的擴建大可不必本席竟表反對第二個是本席的選區不只有火力電廠還有桃園煉油廠您剛剛有講說石化燃料要慢慢慢慢的退場這個本席的選區這個煉油廠周邊的鄰里過去都有跟經濟部長座談交流的這個經驗大家都很關心以前大家講要牽廠要牽廠但我們知道你講要牽廠知識體大國家發展也困難"},{"start":387.217,"end":411.858,"text":"現在大家觀念願意改變希望用轉型的方式來取代遷廠這個轉型的計畫我們跟前任經濟部長已經做過政策對話我也希望新任的經濟部把煉油廠的轉型當成一個重要的發展方針符合減碳的趨勢場區利用的活化並且充分尊重地方的意見部長願不願意撥出一點點時間跟地方跟桃園市政府來做一些政策的溝通跟討論"},{"start":413.237,"end":414.159,"text":"我個人非常願意"}]}},{"id":"153619","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c988a7a2426b299ceae05d12856443da969fc6f3e651eb00659a3edfb217b8fd1275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:55:05 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Act花了四年的時間，那我們臺灣從發想到您要提出的時間準備了多久？可以跟我們大家講一下嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：一年。"],["范委員雲：一年嘛，所以一年之內我們能不能夠趕上歐盟？而且剛剛很多委員講過，其實AI的發展也是日新月異，我一方面期待、也希望儘快，可是一方面其實也會擔心到底準備好了沒有？那您認為如果臺灣要有一個AI Act，最核心要處理的是什麼？因為有一個法就是要規範，您認為最核心要規範的是什麼東西？"],["吳主任委員誠文：最核心要規範的就是儘量去防止假訊息詐騙這些。"],["范委員雲：防止假訊息詐騙？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，然後能夠同時促進現在臺灣AI產業的發展。"],["范委員雲：促進產業的發展？當然我想大家都希望促進產業的發展，就像我們要建高速公路，可是我們也要處理可能會造成的車禍或各方面的傷害。","所以我自己的看法是歐盟AI的重點是在風險分級管理，你們現在是用指引的方式處理，我覺得是非常好，可是這裡面最重要的就是要區分AI風險低和風險高的相關部分，請問主委您覺得風險高的AI相關應用是在哪個領域？"],["吳主任委員誠文：風險高的就是我剛剛提到會侵犯人權的、會造成傷害。"],["范委員雲：會侵犯人權？也是啊！根據歐盟的風險分級，最高的其實就是嚴重威脅人民的生命、生活等基本權利，這屬於不能接受的風險，包含抓取個人臉部影像，我們知道對岸就有做這種嘛！這種就是需要被禁止使用的。至於風險低的，您認為風險最低的AI應用是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是大家不喜歡的一大堆垃圾郵件廣告等等。"],["范委員雲：這也是一種。"],["吳主任委員誠文：還有就是在什麼藝術表現上面做假這些，這個風險也許不高，就是沒有造成人的傷害，但也是不應該的事情。"],["范委員雲：歐盟在這個部分，風險低的就譬如跟消費者互動的聊天機器人這類，這其實就是資訊提供，但是這個也要公開透明，要讓互動的人知道這是跟一個機器人在互動，如果是Deepfake的話就必須要揭露這是Deepfake，譬如這兩天我們有看到習近平告訴大家要記得六四，這個就是Deepfake合成的，而且講話的聲音就像是他在講，那這種就要揭露他是Deepfake，我想這個就是屬於低風險的，所以我想風險分級管理是很重要的。","歐盟AI的重點，除了剛剛講到禁止使用的部分是最嚴重的之外，還有一個就是創建沙盒、鼓勵創新，產業需要創新，可是要有一個人工智慧監管沙盒可以在可控的環境中減輕任何的識別風險，這也是歐盟AI基本法裡面的一個重點，我想大家對這部分都有期待。","另外就是剛剛林宜瑾委員跟林楚茵委員都有問到、我也非常關心的，就是它跟我們民主韌性跟新聞的關係，因為新聞如果在AI這裡被侵權，沒有辦法維持產業健康的話，那我們就只剩下假訊息了！因為新聞至少還有專業的篩選過，有內部編輯的流程，這都是需要資源的投入，如果新聞的產業受到傷害，然後沒有辦法保護自己的不管是叫做著作權或等等的話，那其實會對臺灣的民主韌性有很大的傷害。剛剛我們講到的TAIDE，我不知道您曉不曉得美國紐約的每日新聞等8家報紙向OpenAI跟微軟提告，說他們竊取數百萬篇應該要受到版權保護的新聞文章用來訓練AI，主委您知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個特定的事件我不知道。"],["范委員雲：那你可以多瞭解一下，顯然主委在AI這個課題上還可以做很多事。","有關TAIDE這部分因為您剛剛不大知道，如果您不會回答可以請您的部屬回答。我們的TAIDE訓練過程中網站都有寫，有用中央社、Ettoday、光華雜誌、今周刊的資料，有沒有付費授權呢？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：我們會跟他們談，如果需要付費我們都有付費。"],["范委員雲：非常好！其實我跟你們索資，我知道你們有處理，我覺得這是一個非常好的示範，就是你們告訴大家，你的訓練資料中只要是商業的，你們都有處理相關的議題，我覺得這個部分是最佳示範，所以主委可以肯定一下你們下面這個TAIDE團隊目前有做一個最佳示範。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["范委員雲：歐盟的AI Act也要求要遵守歐盟著作權相關法律，因為本席發言時間已經到了，是不是可以把你們正在研議中的AI基本法跟新聞議價法制如何整合、是不是要納入管理給我辦公室一個書面報告？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，沒問題。謝謝！"],["范委員雲：兩個月的時間可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以。"],["范委員雲：好。謝謝主委！要加油，一起加油。謝謝！"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，主委請回。","我們接下來請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 (AI)推動現況與未來\n方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.332843750000002,"end":58.604093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.82346875,"end":59.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.135343750000004,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.82659375,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.36221875000001,"end":68.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.86221875000001,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.63846875,"end":121.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.73346875000001,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.09971875000001,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.07784375,"end":134.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.84971875000002,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.64971875,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.22346875,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.16846875000002,"end":160.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.81659375,"end":157.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.71909375,"end":161.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.13659375,"end":171.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.54409375,"end":173.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.43846875,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.23096875000002,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.47971875000002,"end":181.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.06596875000002,"end":192.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.31784375,"end":190.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.79846875,"end":192.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.70971875,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.83409375000002,"end":209.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.96034375000002,"end":209.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.26409375,"end":228.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.79284375,"end":228.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.22721875000002,"end":260.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.42534375000002,"end":230.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.13284375,"end":239.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.17596875000004,"end":267.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.04409375,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.98471875,"end":273.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.42346875000004,"end":270.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.79409375,"end":315.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.93721875,"end":277.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.41784375000003,"end":278.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.72909375,"end":285.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.27534375000005,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.06159375000004,"end":318.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.10784375000003,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.97221875,"end":324.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.45721875000004,"end":324.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.26721875000004,"end":325.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.41471875,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.61721875,"end":352.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.95471875000004,"end":372.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.09721875,"end":361.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.37034375,"end":366.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.58909375,"end":371.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.69846875,"end":494.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.51971875000004,"end":436.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.15596875000006,"end":498.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.91096875000005,"end":517.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.6884687500001,"end":560.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.62471875,"end":520.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.54534375,"end":542.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.21346875,"end":562.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.09096875,"end":563.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.58846875,"end":564.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.06096875,"end":567.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.44034375,"end":567.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.6003437500001,"end":571.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.36346875,"end":573.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.6922187499999,"end":576.0422187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.264,"end":4.948,"text":"有請主委吳主委"},{"start":11.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那個一定程序一定都有所以如果主計劃他要找跟他一個很熟的就是教授剛好是他學生這不在你們規範的範圍嘛重點就是說審查的過程是公開透明出審復審是這樣沒錯吧這個應該都有可是我剛剛坐在那邊聽就是會冒出冷汗想說好像怪怪的哪裡好啦 那剛剛重點是在講泰德那泰德是國家隊沒錯吧"},{"start":174,"end":177.568,"text":"所以他又跟我們一般國科會的計畫申請的方式不一樣嗎?這樣沒錯吧?"},{"start":180.341,"end":208.682,"text":"應該是不一樣是吧請主委多了解一下這整個泰德的這個國家隊的這個過程那你們的網頁其實都有說得非常清楚之前我們前主委也都有跟大家解釋過那我今天想問的是其實剛剛很多人問過這個 AI 基本法那因為你已經公開提出說是10月底前嘛可是那個部分應該是你們國科會提出還沒有到行政院通過吧還沒有就是要提到行政院"},{"start":210.444,"end":228.205,"text":"我想今天因為前面的委員都問過了我也是想提醒的事情是其實歐盟的這個AI Act花了4年的時間那我們台灣從發想到就是您要提出的這個時間準備了多久可以跟我們大家講一下嗎應該要一年"},{"start":230.267,"end":245.399,"text":"所以一年之內我們能不能夠趕上歐盟而且剛剛很多委員講過其實AI的發展也是日新月異我一方面期待也希望盡快可是一方面其實也會擔心就是說到底準備好了沒有那先回來講那您認為這個如果台灣要有一個AI最核心要處理的是什麼"},{"start":255.547,"end":267.637,"text":"有一個法就是要規範您認為最核心要規範的是甚麼東西最核心要規範的就是能夠盡量去防止假訊息詐騙防止假訊息詐騙是,然後能夠同時促進現在台灣AI產業的發展"},{"start":273.963,"end":276.264,"text":"我自己的看法就是歐盟的AI的重點是在風險分級管理"},{"start":295.728,"end":307.117,"text":"您們現在是用指引的方式處理我覺得是非常好可是這裡面滿最重要的就是要區分風險低的AI相關的部分跟風險高的不知道主委您覺得風險高的AI相關的應用是在哪個領域?"},{"start":317.462,"end":345.94,"text":"風險最高的?風險最高的就是我剛剛提到能夠會侵犯人權會侵犯人權也是啊會造成傷害在根據歐盟的這個風險就是最高的其實就是嚴重威脅人民的生命生活等基本權利不能接受的風險那包含就是可能抓取個人臉部影像像我們知道對岸就有做這種嘛那這種就是被需要被禁止使用的等等"},{"start":346.42,"end":372.285,"text":"那風險最低的AI應用是什麼?就是大家不喜歡的一大堆的垃圾郵件、廣告等等然後在藝術表現上面做假這些這個風險也許不高就是沒有侵犯到造成人的傷害但是它也是不應該的事情"},{"start":372.725,"end":388.479,"text":"了解,那在這個歐盟的這個部分實現到了風險低的就像聊天機器人比如說跟消費者互動的這其實就是資訊提供但是這個裡面也要公開透明要讓互動的人知道這是跟一個機器人在互動"},{"start":389.159,"end":407.908,"text":"然後如果是deepfake的話那就必須要揭露這是deepfake比如這兩天我們有看到習近平告訴大家要記得六四這個就是說deepfake的這種情況合成的而且講話的聲音就像他在講那這種就要揭露他是deepfake我想這個就是屬於低風險的所以我想風險分級管理是重要的啦"},{"start":411.03,"end":433.182,"text":"那歐盟的AI有個重點就是剛剛講到的禁止使用的部分是最嚴重那還有一個就是創建沙盒鼓勵創新產業需要創新可是要有一個人工智慧監管沙盒可以在可控的環境中減輕任何的風險識別風險那這也是歐盟的AI就是基本法裡面的一個重點"},{"start":434.322,"end":456.247,"text":"我想這部分大家的期待都有那另外一個剛剛林一金委員跟林楚瑩委員都有問到的我也非常關心的就是他跟我們民主任性跟新聞的關係因為新聞如果在AI這裡面被侵權的話當他沒有辦法維持產業的健康的話我們就只剩下假訊息了"},{"start":456.707,"end":484.21,"text":"因為新聞至少還有專業的篩選過有編輯內部的流程所以這都是需要資源的投入那如果新聞的產業受到傷害然後沒有辦法保護自己的不管是叫做著作權或等等的話那其實會對台灣的民主任性有很大的傷害那我剛剛我們講到的泰德那我不知道您曉不曉得紐約的美國八家報紙向OpenAI跟微軟提告"},{"start":485.111,"end":494.249,"text":"說他們竊取數百萬篇的新聞文章這些是應該要受到版權保護的用來訓練AI 這個主委您知道嗎?"},{"start":496.469,"end":516.63,"text":"這個特定的事件我不知道那您可以多了解一下顯然主委在AI這題上還可以很多事那我想我們的泰德因為您剛剛不大知道如果您不會回答可以請您的部署回答我們的泰德訓練過程中網站都有寫有用中央社ETtoday、光華雜誌、金週刊有沒有付費授權呢?"},{"start":517.751,"end":517.771,"text":"范雲議員"},{"start":547.551,"end":547.671,"text":"翁曉琳委員"}]}},{"id":"153617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c982e546adcd60e90dca6cabf0dc0d1a8b711da973c502cee62f520917e713417d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:51:16 - 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Maps這種導航還有路況通報的服務。但是我們要允許它使用你的資料的時候，我們在法律上一定要規範它不能夠拿去做非法的用途，我們還有很多其他的法律，不是只有AI基本法，那些法律就是在濫用個資的時候，我們要有辦法去制裁、將其繩之以法，讓Google不會去做壞事、不會去洩漏這些個資。所以我們就是同步地希望能夠規範，在運用這些的時候要遵守我們所有的法律。"],["林委員楚茵：好。除了遵守法律法規之外，另外，我也提醒主委，我們現在在全球化的情況底下，各行各業使用AI或是未來使用AI，或者是接下來使用到網際網路的部分，很多產業都在運用這些大數據。你們也要跟產業做座談、瞭解產業真正的需求，而不是因為最近在野黨在打監控，就一刀劃下來，因為我聽說產業現在要修改為通訊資訊的相關資料都不可以收集、不可以分析、不可以使用，我跟你講，這一掛下來會讓我們所有正在討論的AI產業的未來死掉。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒錯。"],["林委員楚茵：這個部分也請跟業界溝通、座談、開公聽會，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒問題，我們已經在做，今天下午第一場就開始了。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢。主委請回。","好，我們接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 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Map的確是非常好的例子也就是說在產業發展以及人權的保障上面我們要取得一個平衡因為這個是很好用的一個軟體很好用的服務所以我們如果限制他不准收集我們的資料那他就不可能會有GoogleMap這種導航還有入礦的這個服務"},{"start":287.27,"end":314.347,"text":"但是我們要允許他使用你的資料的時候我們法律上一定要規範他不能夠拿去做非法的用途其他我們還有很多其他法律也不是只有AI基本法那些法律就是你濫用個資的時候我們要有辦法去制裁把他繩之以法所以讓Google他就不會去做他不會去洩漏這些個資所以我們就是同步的希望能夠規範在運用這些的時候要遵守我們所有的法律"},{"start":314.767,"end":327.949,"text":"除了遵守法律法規之外另外的我也提醒主委就是我們現在全球化的情況底下我們各行各業使用AI或是未來使用AI或者是接下來這一半我們現在使用到網際網路的部分很多的產業都在運用這些大數據也要跟產業來做座談瞭解產業真正的需求而不是因為最近在野黨在打監控一個話當話下來"},{"start":341.852,"end":366.442,"text":"﹗"}]}},{"id":"153615","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98b799b9647fb521bd84a12a82c262ca1011da973c502cee627e470654c3813b7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:39:32 - 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的這個健保的一個費用來去請其他國內廠商來去購買"},{"start":406.317,"end":421.598,"text":"未來是不是應該就要考慮要調整這個健保的一個價格否則的話變成是廠商現在沒有意願啊為什麼會變成是說讓一個廠商他可以寡占然後七成的就是因為其他廠商其他廠也可以做但是為什麼到時候會變成是這個情況"},{"start":423.083,"end":439.09,"text":"我覺得委員提的這個方向是應該要嚴厲來改善這是真的很根本的問題因為部長您之前的這個質詢我也有去調查資料也看過這也都是您之前一直很關心的議題所以我們不希望說只是"},{"start":442.044,"end":458.134,"text":"這個講講什麼時候我們會落實因為您剛上任還不到一個月因為這個是整個財務整個財務的問題你這邊多一點是不是你的診察會就會少一點是所以這當然餅就那麼大嘛如果說除非我們現在也講說我們要調漲"},{"start":459.355,"end":486.207,"text":"相關的費用 對不對不然接下來你一定面臨到因為你一開始就開宗明義講說醫療的部分品質的提升以及相關的藥物的部分那兩塊啊本期認為說現在很重要一個是藥價的部分一個是健保點子的部分嘛等於是一個是人一個是藥品嘛就是一個是醫師護理師等相關人員那一個是藥品都很重要是那具體的做法是什麼"},{"start":488.67,"end":505.991,"text":"你是不是要找相關的財主單位我們來開會還是說來做討論然後真真正正來去做當然健保的改革是一個重要的健保的改革裡面就會牽涉到剛剛您提的那兩個問題是 那部長要怎麼做"},{"start":508.05,"end":524.038,"text":"你上任,我們期待新官上任上把火什麼時候會提出來一個比較具體可行的辦法包括健保的改革包括財源的增加包括健保點值以及包括藥品"},{"start":524.818,"end":537.433,"text":"因為現在我們也有委員在提相關的修法那健保典值的部分也是賴清德總統那個時候競選的一個承諾我想在短暫的期間必須因為馬上有修法的這個問題我想我們就會趕快提出一個來"},{"start":541.477,"end":565.899,"text":"短期必須要趕快做的而這些做的是可以來充實健保的資源來達到讓現在的整個醫界能夠盡量滿意這樣來部長那是不是給我們一個時間表你什麼時候會把這種資料給衛防委員會以及給本市一份如果配套措施應該兩個禮拜之內是是可以提出來一個方向尤其是近期的"},{"start":567.039,"end":581.888,"text":"您說只是本席不是要只是針對這一次的永豐的事件的一個配套你們已經在進行了嘛有人講說這就像超市雞蛋進口的翻版啊因為我覺得還是有所差別啦"},{"start":583.068,"end":609.74,"text":"因為畢竟並不是說我們的市場沒有調控好然後零時間缺這個我想兩個問題我們都提供資料給你們第一個就是我們的輸液的計畫是怎麼樣這個你們已經在進行了怎麼樣提供給您然後健保的改革的時程我們也很快就提給還有最重要的是要針對問題要去解決啦本席要的是說我們現在都知道問題但問題是怎麼解決"},{"start":613.262,"end":640.781,"text":"這個就是提出解決的問題兩個禮拜內 有辦法提出來應該是可以提出一個策略好不好 侯委員 因為時間的關係我聽到委員說 部長說要比較整理因為對你所說的每一句話都是政策 也都是國人的期待我們會提出策略啦好 部長 本席願意請您兩個禮拜內提出 也給問候委員會給本席"},{"start":641.201,"end":641.682,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷"}]}},{"id":"153614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98926954fe4100889d84a12a82c262ca1011da973c502cee621aae88de4fb15d3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:25:12 - 11:38:10","影片長度":"00:12:58","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:25:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:38:10+08:00","duration":778,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":574,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時25分）謝謝主席，有請我們的邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好，首先謝謝辛苦歸國。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：感謝大家，現在我們國家在國際上的外交不容易，所以也特別肯定，也特別辛苦，加油！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，再來就是我想要問一下，這幾年因為要控制我們的藥費增加，所以有許多新藥是被限縮給付。限縮的範圍當然包含療程、給付用藥時間等等，造成被限縮給付的藥品並不符合國際上的臨床指引，所以病人很困擾。常見的狀況是，病人用藥一段時間之後，健保就不給付，也只能自費。醫生也很困擾，因為醫生知道可以開某個適合病人的藥，可是因為健保不給付了，所以成本也變高了，病人可能負擔不起，就改用其他藥，我想部長應該知道這個狀況。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在問題也一一浮現，包括原廠開發，在我國也找不到合格的病人做臨床試驗，所以臺灣也已經在國際的新藥開發市場中逐漸被忽略了，被忽視了；未來有許多新藥研發也將不會有我國的Data；醫師也無法爭取發表研究。我覺得這個部分也將會使我國整體的醫療發展停滯，再來就是剝奪病患爭取成為新藥開發的試驗對象，因為有許多疾病也是現行藥物沒辦法治療的，只能夠在新藥開發的時候爭取成為臨床試驗的對象，而且藥廠會支付全額，全部支付這個病人的費用。","所以請教部長，限縮給付雖然省錢，但是也造成剛剛所提到的問題。部長，我想您自己也是台大醫院家醫科的教授，相信您也很清楚。我想問部長，會不會考慮將這個用藥給付條件調整至和國際醫療指引一樣，跟這個指引一致，想要問部長的態度，當然我們知道這個問題也受限於經費有限，所以有點難，但除了經費之外，我們應該還是要以病人為中心，對吧！"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：同時也要考量到我們醫療科技的發展，所以想要問部長，你對於這個部分有什麼想法？你是否願意去評估，去推動這個新藥國際醫療指引全給付？"],["邱部長泰源：是，真的非常敬佩我們委員，廖委員能夠這麼了解醫療的需求跟現在的狀況，甚至連臨床試驗這件事情這麼重要都能夠了解，真的非常敬佩。我想您提的，能夠給我們臺灣的病人，完全符合國際醫療指引的治療，跟給他給付，這絕對是國家應該做的方向，而且我們也的確在做，像今年在新藥各方面就比去年又多一倍……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們會盡量的去……"],["邱部長泰源：我們未來希望爭取全民認可，能夠有更多的健康投資，希望能夠達到這樣一個國際的標準，我想是未來重要的目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。另外，為了鼓勵用藥後，蒐集真實世界的數據，並且發展成真實世界的證據，我也想問，我們健保制度上是否也應該去評估，怎麼樣去支持跟鼓勵？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我們請署長幫忙回答。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，確實有些新藥受限於它的個案或者是臨床的突破性，在臨床二期就取得藥證，所以我們需要更多的真實世界資料來佐證。我們在去年開始也導入了暫時性支付的概念，就是對於這些病人有臨床上需求，但是臨床證據還有一些不足的，我們先讓它到健保來給付，但是在兩年到三年的時間內，我們來蒐集真實世界資料，做為兩年之後的這個決定。我們在今年1月1號也成立了HTA的專責單位，就是醫療科技評估的專責單位，來協助做真實世界資料的蒐集跟後續的分析。"],["廖委員偉翔：了解，所以這個部分你們還是會持續的去思考，怎麼去支持跟獎勵和吸引他們，對不對？"],["石署長崇良：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK！沒問題，謝謝。再來就是下一個問題，部長，這一、兩年有許多醫院都面臨關床的困境，有區域醫院已經關了三成的病床。當然也有人的說法是急缺護理師，所以有病床卻開不得，導致很多病人都塞在急診室。但衛福部卻說，根據今年的統計，跟去年5月同期相比，你們的護理人員增加，總病床數也增加。所以我想要問一下，衛福部的意思是說，沒有媒體描述的這個關床潮嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我先回答一下。我想我們統計的數據是整個床數，跟實際上的real world，大家也知道我整天在醫院混……"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["邱部長泰源：每天我都會看到這些你現在照出來的景象，每天都會感受到當天的狀況。以臺大醫院來講，我昨天跟院長也討論很久，臺大醫院是不至於有關床的現象，但是中南部我相信可能會有需要床開少一點的。如果真的有這種情況，應該照顧的病人受到影響，這個都是我們政府一定要去改善、去瞭解的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，請問這部分有解嗎？因為這幾年的狀況都是這樣，地區醫院也是。"],["邱部長泰源：我們來瞭解原因，到底是護理人力不足，還是因為點值，如果做太多，點值是不是會有影響等等的，其實我們要去瞭解到這個因素。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，所以這部分的原因，是不是可以請部長盡速的找出來，然後要怎麼解，因為我要告訴您的是，全國都知道因為缺護理師，這可能也是其中之一的原因，您剛剛有提到，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以導致關床，但是照護司長卻反問關床的醫院是哪幾家，我是覺得這個回應不太恰當。"],["邱部長泰源：其實我們並沒有否認關床，而是說整個統計數據，我們後來自己再檢討，這樣的數據是沒辦法代表實際上大家所關心的事情，所以在這邊跟大家抱歉，我們只呈現我們所擁有的資料。因為各個醫院關床不會去跟衛生主管報告，如果它知道你關這麼多……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，沒關係……"],["邱部長泰源：之後就會給你減少……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我知道，所以我跟你講，這就是有數據佐證，你們剛剛說總執登人數有增加，但為何地區醫院以上的護理師人力卻還是一再的流失？所以實際上這是不是其中的原因，要拜託衛福部趕快去了解清楚並改善，因為這有關於我們一般民眾就醫的權益。","我們來看一下這個數據，我們是從貴部的網站上下載這份資料，我也挑了比較有資源、有能力的醫學中心層級去比較。從這個比較表其實可以看出來，疫情前108年，醫中的占床率平均接近八成五，但是疫後111年的資料，已經掉到七成五，112年跟113年更慘，恐怕有七成都有困難，連醫學中心都這麼慘，更不要說區域醫院和地區醫院。所以後來我也把108年、109年，還有111年跟112年，每個年度第一季（Q1）的占床率去比較，可以清楚看出來，這個數據平均從七成和六成，掉到112年的四成八，平均掉了22%耶！這就是實務上會認為說，關床有達到三成的原因。我要告訴部長，這個數據明明也清清楚楚的，為什麼你們就不願意面對，看要怎麼解決呢？歸結這個原因，當然你剛剛都有提到……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我覺得一定要面對……"],["廖委員偉翔：對！"],["邱部長泰源：一定要面對，我第一次的回答只是一個數據的呈現，未來我相信衛福部會針對問題來解決，譬如說在人工輸液的時候，我也請全國醫療院所、醫師公會去調查所有的醫療院所到底缺了多少，一樣的，我們現在會跟相關的團體來密切的結合，才能真正了解到，不管是醫中、區域、地區醫院，到底情況是怎麼樣，我們要一個一個分別來解決。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長可不可以告訴我們，因為這個數據還蠻明顯的，我們知道在做管理的時候，總是要有一個目標，我們希望你們了解情況之後可以真實的了解這樣的占床率，那你們未來希望這個數據怎麼改善？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我也當過醫學中心的部主任，常常每個禮拜都在那邊檢討各科的占床率，所以我對占床率是非常敏感的。像臺大醫院差不多都九十幾%，可能……"],["廖委員偉翔：但這是平均啦！我給你的數據也是你們的資料啊！這都是平均。"],["邱部長泰源：對啦！有的可能是一般急性病房或特殊病房，特殊病房有時候占床率也變化蠻大的，所以可能也要分。我們要更犀利的來分析，可能才有辦法針對問題來解決，但是護理人力需要充實，我想這是最急迫要做的事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，部長，雖然你也剛上任，但是這個問題也好幾年了，我想部長是不是可以到時候也把這個資料研究清楚，提供你們打算怎麼解決的方案給本席好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，一定。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來我趕快再問一題，我知道時間到。部長，其實賴總統在2021年的時候有出席健保的國是論壇，剛剛講到有關於病床的癥結點，其實也有部分可能跟健保點值有關。2021年時任副總統、現在的賴總統說，這二十幾年來不諱言，健保制度也存在很多問題。去年賴總統說要召開健保國是會議，想請問部長，什麼時候要召開？"],["邱部長泰源：其實健保國是會議，我的認知，已經包含在過去六場健康臺灣全國大論壇，裡面已經提出了很多具體的短期、中期、長期我們要解決的一些健保改革。這個部分因為今天也沒有時間，我們從公務預算不能用在健保裡面等等的這些處理，這個就可以提出一些經費，是不是研議相關的……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，因為這個研議真的是相當的研議，研議了非常的久……"],["邱部長泰源：這次的研議是很具體啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：所以可不可以請部長到時候儘速的提出，到底你們的願景要怎麼改？因為願景講得都很美好，但始終是願景，看起來問題就是存在，我們一直不面對、一直不改善，這個東西也拖好久了。"],["邱部長泰源：這個一定要解決……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長您任內一定會強力的推動解決對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我過去十年就每天在解決這個問題，未來一定更加努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員。現在處理臨時提案，總共有兩案，請一併宣讀。","一、","衛生福利部於2024年5月15日預告「醫院設立或擴充許可辦法第六條附表修正草案」調整醫療區域劃分，將石門、三芝、淡水、八里共四個行政區於臺北二級醫療區域中新增淡海次醫療區域，此更動主要考量淡海新市鎮移入人口近年大量移入，然而醫療院所主要集中在士林、北投地區，以至於淡海新市鎮地區民眾就醫不便，其立意良善，衛生福利部應協助凝聚共識，加速推動該醫療區域劃分之調整；另，淡水、三芝、石門現況僅有淡水馬偕紀念醫院為醫學中心，無區域醫院、地區醫院僅有泓安醫院、北新醫院、台安醫院等三所精神專科醫院，其餘均為基層診所，致民眾遇急重症醫療需求，需負擔較高額的門診費用，為落實衛生福利部分級醫療之推動，建請衛生福利部研議於新增次醫療區域後，評估部立醫院、或協請新北市衛生局加入該次醫療區域成立區域醫院，以健全北海岸地區分級醫療網絡。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　黃秀芳　　王正旭　　劉建國","二、","為落實家庭暴力防治工作，家庭暴力防治中心對於危機家庭須立即提供多項保護性服務措施，且依家庭暴力防治法規定，該中心得與性侵害防治中心合併設立，使中心工作業務相當繁重。經查，於縣（市）政府，其中心主任多為縣（市）長兼任，未必能有專業性協助社工同仁面對處理高風險、多重問題複雜個案及跨網絡合作；另查，直轄市政府，其組長職務列等僅7職等，相較高級社會工作師7-8職等低，職等未反映其職責程度，且為避免產生領導統御問題，爰由高級社會工作師兼任組長，以致於考試院銓敘部歷年審查修編案，均表示單位主管重要職務及一人一職之原則，請其審酌將兼任組長改為專任，然而實務上並不可行，而中心僅設置1名9-10職等主任及1名9職等副主任，綜理涉及人身安全之保護性業務，業務量並不亞於工程機關、勞動機關等規模相當單位，其首長職等可列為11職等，且設有幕僚長協助處理內部繁雜事務。綜上，為能全面性推動保護性業務，回應其業務性質及組織規模，建請衛生福利部就家庭暴力防治中心（家庭暴力暨性侵害防治中心）研議調整其定位，包含對其編制進行通案檢視與盤整，並協助建立相關基準，作為考試院銓敘部審查該中心編修案之參考依據。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　黃秀芳　　王正旭　　劉建國"],["主席：請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有。"],["主席：沒有，那就照案通過。第二案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["邱部長泰源：遵照辦理。"],["主席：那就照案通過。我們這個臨時提案全部處理完畢。接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.705343750000001,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.434718750000002,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.22221875,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.17534375,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.37284375,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.58346875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.59596875,"end":30.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.48596875,"end":43.737218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.922843750000006,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.64784375,"end":48.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.49159375,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.12721875000001,"end":101.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.42846875000001,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.42471875000001,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.36096875,"e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然省錢但是也造成剛剛所提到的問題那部長我想您自己也是臺大這個醫院家醫科的教授相信您也很清楚"},{"start":126.508,"end":145.787,"text":"那想要問說部長會不會考慮將這個用藥給付條件調整制和國際醫療指引一樣這個跟這個指引一致的這個部分因為想要問部長的態度喔因為這個問題當然我們知道他也受限於經費有限所以有點難"},{"start":146.688,"end":159.757,"text":"但除了經費之外我們應該還是要以病人為中心嘛對吧同時也要考量到我們的醫療科技的發展所以想要問部長就是說你對於這個部分你有什麼想法那你是否願意去評估去推動這個新藥國際醫療指引全體付"},{"start":162.583,"end":184.731,"text":"是,真的非常敬佩我們廖委員能夠這麼瞭解到這個醫療的需求跟現在的狀況以及像甚至臨床試驗這些事情這麼重要都能夠瞭解,真的非常敬佩那我想您提的能夠給我們的給臺灣的病人完全符合國際醫療指引"},{"start":187.725,"end":215.961,"text":"的一個治療跟給他幾戶這是絕對是國家應該做的方向而且我們也的確在做像今年就在新藥各方面的就比去年又多一倍所以你們會盡量的去我們未來希望爭取全民認可能夠有更多的健康投資希望能夠來達到這樣一個國際的標準我想是未來重要的目標好謝謝部長"},{"start":216.821,"end":232.864,"text":"另外就是為了鼓勵用藥後收集真實世界的數據並且發展成真實世界的證據這個部分我也想問說我們健保制度上是否也應該去評估怎麼樣去支持跟鼓勵"},{"start":235.955,"end":256.273,"text":"這個沒關係,我們署長您幫忙跟委員報告,確實這個有些新藥那麼受限於它的個案或者是臨床的突破性有的在臨床二期就取得藥證所以我們需要更多的真實世界資料來做佐證所以我們在去年開始也導入了暫時性支付的概念"},{"start":256.713,"end":278.61,"text":"就是對於這些病人有臨床上需求但是臨床證據還有一些不足的我們先讓他到健保來給付但是在兩年到三年的時間內我們來收集真實世界資料來作為最後那麼兩年之後過了之後的這個決定所以我們在今年1月1號也成立了"},{"start":279.931,"end":287.198,"text":"的專責單位,就是醫療科技評估的專責單位來協助做真實世界資料的收集跟後續的分析。"},{"start":296.409,"end":314.057,"text":"再來就是下一個問題部長這一兩年有許多醫院都面臨關床的困境有區域醫院已經關了三成的病床當然有人說的說法就是急缺護理師所以有病床卻開不得導致很多病人都塞在急診室"},{"start":315.177,"end":333.306,"text":"但衛福部卻說根據今年的統計5月跟去年5月同期相比你們的護理人員增加總病床數也增加所以我想要問一下衛福部的意思是說沒有媒體描述的這個關床潮嗎?這個我先回答一下"},{"start":334.929,"end":354.344,"text":"我想我們統計的是整個床數那跟實際上的real World大家也知道我整天在這個醫院混每天我就看到這些你現在照出來的景象你每天可以感受到當天的狀況"},{"start":355.825,"end":381.722,"text":"那以台大醫院來講我昨天跟院長也討論了很久台大醫院是不至於有關床的現象但是中南部或者那個我相信可能會有需要床開少一點的這個部分那他的原因這個如果真的有這種情況而影響到"},{"start":382.603,"end":382.763,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":399.588,"end":425.409,"text":"因為點值,如果你做太多點值是不是會有影響?等等的,其實我們要去了解到這個因素。這部分的原因是不是可以請部長盡速的找出來,然後要怎麼解喔?因為我要告訴您的是,全國都知道因為缺護理師,這也可能是其中之一的原因,您剛剛有提到嘛,對不對?是。所以導致關床,但是這個照護師長卻反問關床的醫院是哪幾家喔?師長。"},{"start":426.65,"end":431.332,"text":"其實我們並沒有否認關闖,而是說他整個統計數據所以這個我們後來自己在檢討說這樣的一個數據是沒辦法代表實際上大家所關心的事情所以在這邊跟大家抱歉沒有呈現一個我們只呈現我們所擁有的資料因為各個議院關闖"},{"start":454.448,"end":478.043,"text":"他不會去跟衛生主管報告因為如果他知道說你怪這麼多好,部長沒關係,我給你看下一頁喔50層你阿伯就跟你撿,這樣就對了對,我知道所以我跟你講這就是有數據佐證喔因為反正你們剛剛說總值登人數有增加但為何地區醫院以上的護理師人力還是卻一再的流失喔那所以實際上"},{"start":479.878,"end":497.701,"text":"當然這是不是其中的原因要拜託衛福不趕快去了解清楚並改善因為這有關於我們一般民眾這個就醫的權益喔那我們來看一下這個數據喔我們是從貴部的網站上去下載這份資料喔那我也挑了比較有資源有能力的醫學中心層級去比較"},{"start":499.103,"end":516.541,"text":"從這個比較表其實可以看出來疫情前108年醫中的戰床率平均接近8成5但是疫後這個111年的資料已經掉到7成5那112年跟113年更慘恐怕有7成都有困難"},{"start":517.302,"end":542.64,"text":"那連醫學中心都這麼慘更不要說這個區醫院和地區醫院所以後來我也把這108年、109年的這個Q1還有111年跟112年的每個年度的第一劑的戰床率戰床率去比較可以清楚看出來我們看到這個數據平均從7成和6成掉到112年的4成8所以平均也有掉了22%"},{"start":544.747,"end":571.509,"text":"所以這就是實務上會認為說關床有達到三成的原因所以我要告訴部長這個數據明明也清清楚楚的為什麼你們就不願意面對那要看要怎麼解決呢對不對規則這個原因當然你剛剛都有講我覺得一定要面對對一定要面對那我那個第一次的回答那只是一個數據的呈現未來我相信我們衛福部會針對"},{"start":573.35,"end":599.343,"text":"我們例如說在上次輸液的時候,人工輸液的時候我也請全國醫療院所、醫事公會去調查所有的醫療院所到底缺了多少一樣的我們現在會跟相關的團體來密切的結合來才能真正了解到不管是醫中、區域、地區醫院到底它的情況是怎麼樣我們要一個一個分別來解決"},{"start":600.031,"end":618.45,"text":"部長那可不可以告訴我們說因為這個數據還蠻明顯的嘛我們知道在做管理的時候你總是要有一個目標啦我們希望說你們瞭解情況之後是不是可以真實的瞭解說這樣的占床率那你們未來希望這個東西可以怎麼這個數據會怎麼改善以前是87的"},{"start":623.166,"end":646.293,"text":"這個因為我也當過醫學中心的部主任所以常常每個禮拜都在那邊檢討各科的戰狀律師我對戰狀律師非常敏感小台大醫院全部都90幾%都90%可能也如果但是但是這是平均我給你的數據也是你們的資料有的是可能是一般急性病房或者是特殊病房特殊病房有時候"},{"start":647.373,"end":649.577,"text":"但是護理人力的需要充實,我想這是"},{"start":661.965,"end":662.545,"text":"部長,下一頁就是"},{"start":679.267,"end":704.253,"text":"其實賴總統在20212021年的時候有這個健保的國事論壇那其實剛剛講到有關於病床的癥結點其實也有部分可能跟這個健保點子有關那2021年的時任副總統現在的賴總統說這個20幾年來不諱言健保制度也存在很多問題那去年賴總統說要召開健保國事會議想要請問部長什麼時候要召開其實"},{"start":706.134,"end":719.644,"text":"建保國事會議已經我的認知已經包含在過去五六場一個健康台灣大論前國大論壇裡面已經提出了很多具體短期、中期、長期"},{"start":720.925,"end":748.531,"text":"我們要解決的一些健保的改革那這個部分因為今天你沒有時間我們從公務依算歸公務就說公務依算不能用在健保裡面等等的這些處理那這個就可以提出一些經費那是不是研議相關的一些在可能是不是部長因為這個研議真的是研議相當的研議研議了非常的久這次的研議是很記題"},{"start":749.851,"end":777.968,"text":"對,所以可不可以請部長到時候盡速的提出到底你們的願景要怎麼改我想因為因為願景講的都很美好但始終是願景喔看起來問題就是存在那我們一直不面對一直不改善這個東西也拖了好久所以部長您任內一定會強力的推動解決對不對我過去10點就每天在解決這個問題未來一定更加努力好,謝謝部長好,謝謝委員好,謝謝廖偉翔委員現在處理臨時提案"}]}},{"id":"153613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c981559b6c08ea59a34a6cabf0dc0d1a8b711da973c502cee628d27e5ce63abe3e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:40:41 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Michael﹖這都有可能啊﹖但是我們一定要努力以為啊﹖這個做得最多的我覺得是高雄市﹖我覺得是陳一邁市長﹖"},{"start":112.997,"end":114.818,"text":"國際招商能力﹑企圖﹑成果有目共睹﹑天象顯現出來"},{"start":132.438,"end":132.578,"text":"邱志偉"},{"start":149.639,"end":152.221,"text":"會不會有缺電問題?會不會缺電問題?我請董事長,董事長最了解,會不會缺電問題?"},{"start":179.946,"end":198.132,"text":"高雄有三個店長,四個店長,所以沒有缺點問題,水公司?會不會缺水的問題?各位報告,水公司我們會全力以赴,全力以赴就代表沒有問題,萬事皆被只欠東風,東風又由部長這邊吹出來"},{"start":202.66,"end":217.367,"text":"我向這個委員報告,就是選擇高雄或者是選擇南部,我想對這個業者來講,他們有充分的這個合算。這個您剛才講的,您舉的那幾個條件,應該都是他們考量的這個範疇。"},{"start":222.629,"end":246.33,"text":"所以我剛才有舉這個花若盛開,蝴蝶自然,如果你的條件剛好,他們就會進來。現在已經盛開了,蝴蝶陣往高雄飛。來,那個水利署,署長。這個水利署的專業,我想這個,我星期一剛才考察,這個113年應急啊,你把我駁回很多啊。"},{"start":246.994,"end":247.134,"text":"主席"},{"start":275.763,"end":301.074,"text":"阿對 如委員所說的筆秀排水臨近於橋頭園區阿那我們第三期的部分已經優先在做那你禮拜一去看那個二期的部分我們在前瞻的五期的部分阿這個會在優先依照評比的次序來做考量另外協定湖內鹿竹岡山這一淹水地區我每一案子有親自去看過阿你們沒有支持那我希望說今年能夠納入應急工程"},{"start":302.352,"end":302.772,"text":"經濟部次長何次長"},{"start":332.815,"end":353.48,"text":"新創啊新創你們在這個國際創業聚落你們在林口設立新創區然後在這個高雄要設立亞灣新創區上一回我諮詢這個王部長的時候你們也擔心在北高雄也籌備一個北高雄新創區目前進度為何"},{"start":354.5,"end":357.763,"text":"新達電廠的這些相關的運轉一延再延 特別是燃氣機組"},{"start":379.019,"end":380.22,"text":"藍氣的正式商轉的時間會不會再往後延?"},{"start":386.238,"end":409.507,"text":"我們目前就是規劃他12月就他應該是在第三季就會點火第四季就會完成可以接受調控所以一延再延本來是今年2月延到今年12月他就這一個部分是因為我想委員都有清楚因為你長期都在關心嘛因為那個地方我們在鹽灘地上面興建其實地質的部分花了比較多時間那中間也遇到了疫情不過"},{"start":410.487,"end":430.504,"text":"我們現在工程進度就扣面了幾步就會稍微就可以加速往前你們要盡量不要拖太久趕快銜接上來那現在3號4號的這個藍莓機組你明年除役之後他會轉備用還是就徹底除役跟委員報告就是我們在環評的承諾上面"},{"start":431.564,"end":431.844,"text":"另外再請部長"},{"start":455.976,"end":477.766,"text":"部長您這個境外關內境外關內是過去部長沒有提到的境外關內境外就是非國內嘛一定在國外那有哪些國家重點地區已經有成型了或者你們有目標的區域或目標國家你要在這些國家或這些區域"},{"start":478.326,"end":479.227,"text":"九州美國德州歐洲捷克"},{"start":499.045,"end":523.222,"text":"所以你在這些捷克美國跟九州這三個是你們未來所要推動的三個境外關內的這個概念嘛對不對關內就是說他的所有的稅是比照於國內待遇喔是不是這樣子基本上我們讓他在外面主要幫助他就是他在國外發展的過程裡面我們幫他在當地國可以談到一些這個稅負的這個減免"},{"start":525.484,"end":525.764,"text":"﹚邱志偉﹚"},{"start":550.285,"end":575.756,"text":"在九州地點還沒有跟這個然後捷克會在哪裡在布拉格美國會在哪裡德州這個是暫定的地方這是成型之後大概會什麼時候成型應該是我講我們會在這幾個月裡面把它完全定型化另外最後一題這個是投審師"},{"start":581.575,"end":596.188,"text":"市長我問一下這個這個恐怕部長你不是那麼瞭解我直接問一下市長這SHOPLINE的中資啊的相關的大家的疑問目前有沒有違反我們外資管理規定"},{"start":597.798,"end":624.807,"text":"各位報告因為這個案子它的上層結構的部分我們還在了解還在行政調查當中還在行政調查所以還有潛在的風險你們要注意隱私外資的風險這些你們可能要注意好謝謝委員提醒我們知道所有的外資都要中資都要透過嚴格的這個這個的檢視或是審查所以還在什麼時候會出來呢我們盡量努力好謝謝"},{"start":626.187,"end":626.288,"text":"邱志偉委員"}]}},{"id":"153612","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9848fb252b7d22c0d605d12856443da96911da973c502cee622c892803145f776d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:40:34 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rt":325.73,"end":352.678,"text":"同樣也是我們現在在內政委員會在審查的這個打詐專法那針對於網路的這個社群媒體的這個廣告那將來也會要求這個網路社群平台不管是Meta也好Google也好採取類似實名制的要經過一定的認證之後他才能放廣告換句話說他的廣告來源是可以追尋的也可以清除來源他辨別他的真偽那這個是速發部不管在法規方面或在技術方面會盡力的朝這個方向來進行"},{"start":353.619,"end":376.597,"text":"謝謝你的回答你針對這三項也是我們之前討論過我也希望你將你們的這個想使的書面資料給本席他的進程怎麼做方案怎麼做書面資料給本席我們一起希望民眾可以得到安心那最後一個議題就是諸位本席要請教AI的時代來臨剛剛我跟郭部長經濟部長討論他說他上任後要盤點電力"},{"start":381.341,"end":408.841,"text":"他今天說．如果AI加入．他還要重新盤點．他的時間點在7月中旬．7月15日這個會期結束前．他會告訴社會大眾．我們的電力夠不夠．我們的能源配比要怎麼做．所以一樣的議題要請教主委．也就是目前我們看到．我們的電力的部分平均用電．平均我們是增長大概會每年大概2.7%．"},{"start":410.342,"end":427.334,"text":"但是經濟部有告訴我們如果加入AI是會超過3%以上在這樣的情況之下電力跟能源是我們最重要的主軸所以本席要請教吳主委也就是我們推動的AI的圓區那裡的電力的穩定"},{"start":429.395,"end":433.558,"text":"這非常重要所以你們整個橫向的組織當然也不是只有你國防會經濟部、環境部如果有要檢討非核家園包括修法等我把這個議題提出因為電力等於是國力你可以贊同這個議題嗎"},{"start":449.285,"end":461.765,"text":"國力的一部分所以也就是在我們推動之餘我們也要運用我們到底我們的能量、電力要怎麼樣去穩定供電、充足供電這是非常重要"},{"start":462.526,"end":462.546,"text":"楊瓊瓔委員"}]}},{"id":"153610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c989d5530ac6fe08537a6cabf0dc0d1a8b711da973c502cee62a2f0af228fb527a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:30:25 - 11:40:38","影片長度":"00:10:13","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:30:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:40:38+08:00","duration":613,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":657,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時30分）謝謝召委，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長，慢慢來。主席趁這個時間宣告一下：我們中午就不休息，延長開會時間到登記發言的委員都質詢完畢為止，我們再休息。各位同仁，如果有需要上洗手間就自行處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。部長，辛苦了。首先還是要肯定部長，願意從產業界來到政府部門出任部長，為臺灣一起打拼。","我先秀第一張圖，AI的時代來臨，部長也曾說過。臺灣與AI其實是共生共榮的關係，確實臺灣也搭上了AI這個時代的腳步，部長怎麼看AI與臺灣未來的關係？"],["郭部長智輝：AI與臺灣的關係，我想就是AI與世界連結的開始。昨天Intel的老闆就講，IT等於Intel加上Taiwan，所以大家可以了解，過去我們講IC是講India與China，不過現在AI的時代確實是從AI Chip做到AI Server到AI的Application，我想臺灣是最有條件的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以臺灣未來也會跟著AI一起躍上世界的腳步。"],["郭部長智輝：世界會連結到臺灣來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是。我看了一下部長的口頭報告，在8頁的內容裡光是AI就談到了30次，大概也是有史以來我看到AI的最多次數，也看出部長對AI這一塊有深大的期許及期待。另外，部長也提到未來IC設計業能夠在五年內拚到全球前二，部長要怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：事實上，我們現在的IC設計業已經是全球第二，美國第一，占了68%；臺灣第二，占了18%；中國第三，占了16%。我的意思是我們必須要保持在第二的位置，穩定這個位置，也希望能占全球超過20%，這是我自我期許的目標。因為中國的發展也非常快，過去中國在軟體的時代、在Cloudy做的，其實他們是世界第二，到了AI這個時代，大家都歸零重新發展的時候，我認為因為AI的Chip只有臺灣能做，AI的Server臺灣做了九成，所以AI的Application應該從臺灣開始散開。如果臺灣能夠讓百工百業都有很多應用的工程師，那麼從臺灣散出去，這個就是臺灣未來可以影響全球的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，早上你也有提到接下來幾個研發中心的部分，無論是輝達或AMD，甚至是其他的，未來有機會在臺灣有更多的投資。其中提到高雄的亞灣，過去這個地方其實是加工出口區，五十年前創造臺灣奇蹟的地方，但是這一段時間以來，不管是亞洲新灣區、甚至是八年前經濟部主導推動的5GAloT，投入106億，到後來的亞灣2.0，這個智慧科技創新園區，投入170億，其實都是在做這些的布局。現在的布局也慢慢看到更多的成果，也就是說，做好了準備之後，也希望迎接將來可能的投資來到這個地方。我想問一下部長，看來輝達在高雄投資的這件事情，特別是在亞灣的這件事情，應該大致上已經有一個眉目出來了，是吧？"],["郭部長智輝：根據我的了解，我還是一樣感覺，沒有人告訴我它會去高雄、也沒有人指示我說它會去高雄，不過我個人的感覺，以這個經濟委員會有4位委員是來自於高雄，其實就可以想到這個影響力應該是非常大。"],["賴委員瑞隆：恐怕也不是經濟委員會的影響力，我認為從企業界的嗅覺及整個高雄的布局狀況，其實高雄已經做好了相關的準備。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：從整體上的布局，以電的部分來講，未來無論是半導體或是AI都需要大量的電力，高雄有40%的電都是往中往北送，即使高雄送出了這麼多充足的電力，高雄還繼續在興達電廠、在大林電廠持續增加燃氣的電廠，高雄就是完全的做了這些充分的準備。包括人才的部分也做了相關的準備，不管是中山大學、清大、交大、甚至是成大都在高雄設置相關的學院。其實所有的布局都已經具備，包括土地的部分等等都已經做好了準備，高軟二期的土地，也包括中油周邊的土地，所以我認為高雄已經具備最好的條件，部長，同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我非常同意委員所說的，花若盛開，蝴蝶自來，所以做好準備，這些數據中心一定會去。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也期待部長就你能夠協助的範圍，讓整個臺灣能夠區域均衡發展。我們知道在臺北已經有一個了，如果未來輝達能在高雄設置第二座的研發中心，它會形成更強的群聚效果。部長，你看一下亞灣，明天你也會到亞灣去，其實它是一個非常棒的港灣城市，過去國際級的港灣城市也都是這樣，從過去的工業轉型之後，走向更高科技的部分與AI發展的部分。旁邊有高雄展覽館、高軟一期、高軟二期，外面就有遊艇碼頭。陳其邁市長邀請你來，說要給你3個泊位，給輝達3個泊位，它就是長這樣。我認為它是一個具備把人才吸引過來的充分優勢的地方，我也希望部長、司長及處長能夠大力促成。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。我想3個泊位是要給NVIDIA，不是給我啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：對、對、對。我再講一下，包括日月光、台積電、仁寶、緯創、鴻海、軟科的鴻海大樓、超級電腦Taipei 1的部分、甚至是生態園區等等，全部都已經群聚到高雄來了，所以我認為真的，過去以來這些大概只有機會群聚在北部、群聚在竹科而已，但是現在南部的生態系已經慢慢發展成熟起來，過去我們不斷發電只能供應中北部使用，但是現在我們做了這些準備之後，希望讓這些產業能夠進來，我也希望部長能持續支持，不只是輝達，甚至是AMD或其他等等，有機會多鼓勵他們，到一個用電充足、地方政府友善，同時水也具備了、土地也具備了的地點，還有空港及海港的優勢，讓南部的優秀人才能夠在南部有好的發展，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長。接下來我要再講的是它的旁邊其實有一個前鎮原來的加工出口區，這個是前鎮的園區，經過之前沈榮津部長等的大力支持，我們做了一個前瞻的計畫，24億來改造一些舊的大樓。以前我第一次擔任立委的時候，還有建築物上面長了一棵榕樹，後來我們找到經費把它拆掉，現在蓋成嶄新的科技大樓，新的產業也都進駐。我認為這些都是未來高雄發展、亞灣發展的一個重要願景，也希望部長繼續支持。在前鎮園區風華再現的計畫，繼續投入更多的建設，讓老舊的大樓更新，同時間讓更多新的產業能夠進駐，讓五十年前帶動臺灣經濟奇蹟的前鎮加工出口區，現在更名為前鎮科技產業園區，能夠整個帶動高雄產業的進步發展，好不好？部長，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們一起努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請部長也持續重視。再來我看到部長的報告提到幾個重點，不管是半導體AI，甚至是投資全球的布局，以及供電的部分。我剛剛也提到在供電的部分，除了支持持續推動相關的燃氣電廠之外，我想綠電也是一個非常重要的產業，無論是在我們減碳的部分或是在我們的一些長遠目標，這也是國際各企業所重視的。我們看到不管是光電、離岸風電、甚至是地熱等等，部長，未來會持續大力推動整個綠電吧？"],["郭部長智輝：未來我們是全力推動綠電。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為綠電其實是更具有國人的高度共識，核電遇到核廢料的問題、安全的問題、法令的問題以及人民溝通的問題，我覺得這些問題都需要相當的時間，恐怕也緩不濟急，但綠電是可以加快速度的。過去我們用躉購費率的方式去支持，我也希望未來部長能針對這一塊大力支持，讓我們的電力更加多元化。同時綠電也是國際的趨勢，而且臺灣在離岸風電與太陽光電都有非常好的優勢，不要因為少數地方性的一些弊案而影響大家對綠電的信心。這是全世界都在推動的方向，我們也應該持續大力推動，有弊案就把它查出來，但我們還是要朝整個大原則的方向走，這樣才能讓臺灣成為綠電大國、才能讓我們的產業持續永續發展，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，辛苦了，我們一起努力，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員、謝謝郭部長。","接下來請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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server跟從AI chip做到AI server到AI的application我想這個臺灣是最有條件的所以臺灣未來也會跟著AI一起來更躍上世界的一個腳步世界會連結到臺灣我看了一下部長的口頭報告你裡面八頁裡面你光AI就談到了30次大概也是有史以來我看到AI最多的一個次數那也看出部長對AI這塊也有深大的一些期許跟期待"},{"start":114.084,"end":125.827,"text":"包括部長也提到了未來IC設計業能夠5年內拚到全球前2部長怎麼來做?我們現在的IC設計業事實上已經是全球第2美國第1戰68台灣第2戰18中國第3戰16"},{"start":131.548,"end":153.628,"text":"那我的意思就是說我們必須要保持這個在第二的這個位置的穩定這個位置我們希望能夠佔全球大概超過20%這個是我自我期許的目標那因為中國他在發展也非常的快中國過去在軟體的這個時代在Cloudy他們做的其實他是世界第二的"},{"start":154.557,"end":181.193,"text":"那到AI這個時代大家都歸零重新開始在發展的時候我認為台灣因為AI的chip只有台灣能做AI的server台灣做了九成所以這個AI application應該從台灣開始散開所以台灣如果說能夠讓百工百業都有很多在這個運用的工程師的話那麼從台灣散出去我想這個就是台灣未來可以影響全球的部分"},{"start":181.533,"end":196.971,"text":"部長你早上也有提到就是說整個包括接下來幾個研發中心的部分在不管是輝達甚至AMD的部分其他的未來有機會在台灣有更多的一些投資的部分那裡面當然有提到高雄亞灣那高雄亞灣其實"},{"start":198.793,"end":225.713,"text":"過去來這個地方其實是加工出口區50年前創造台灣奇蹟的地方但是這一段時間以來不管亞洲新灣區甚至在8年前以後開始在推動也是進一步主導推動5G IOT投入106億到後來亞灣2.0這個智慧科技創新園區投入170億其實都是在做這些的佈局所以現在的佈局慢慢也看到更多的成果也就是說做好的準備之後也迎接了"},{"start":226.173,"end":226.694,"text":"賴瑞隆議員賴瑞隆議員"},{"start":239.08,"end":257.992,"text":"以我所了解的我還是一樣感覺我沒有人告訴我他會到高雄也沒有人指示我說他會到高雄不過我個人的感覺這個經濟委員會有四位委員是來自於高雄就可以想到這個影響力應該是非常的大"},{"start":258.712,"end":279.958,"text":"恐怕也不是經濟委員會的影響力啦我認為從企業界的嗅覺跟整個高雄的這個布局的狀況我認為高雄其實已經做好了相關的一些準備整個整體上的一些布局包括電的部分來講就好啦其實但未來的這些不管半導體或是AI都需要大量的電力高雄的電有40%往中往北送"},{"start":280.818,"end":281.038,"text":"﹚賴瑞隆﹚"},{"start":296.283,"end":298.364,"text":"是的,我非常同意委員所說的,花若盛開,蝴蝶自來所以沒有這麼好的準備"},{"start":322.902,"end":349.307,"text":"這些數據中心一定會去那也期待部長就你能夠協助的範圍讓整個臺灣能夠區域均衡發展就當然我們知道在臺北已經有一個了那在高雄未來這個如果輝達能夠在高雄設置第二座的這個研發中心的時候它會形成更強的一個區域上的效果部長你看一下這個亞灣明天你也會到亞灣去它其實就是一個非常棒的一個港灣城市那"},{"start":351.149,"end":368.007,"text":"國際級的港灣城市也都是這樣從過去的工業轉型之後走向更高科技的部分跟AI的一些發展的部分旁邊高雄展覽館高覽一期高覽二期外面就有遊艇碼頭陳吉邁市長邀請你來說給你三個博位給那個回答三個博位就講這樣"},{"start":368.968,"end":385.616,"text":"所以我認為他是一個充分的具備把人才吸引來的一個充分優勢的一個地方我也希望部長跟整個包括司長處長能夠大力來促成謝謝委員我想那個三個博會給這個這個MVD不是給我啦對對對"},{"start":389.412,"end":407.959,"text":"我們再講一下啦齁 這各位看一下包括日月光 包括台積電 仁寶 偉創 鴻海 深忍 甚至這個微軟的這個鴻海大樓啦齁等等的齁 這個超級電腦Type-1的部分 包括甚至生態園區等等全部都已經群聚過到高雄來了齁 所以我認為這個"},{"start":409.299,"end":409.339,"text":"賴瑞隆"},{"start":428.271,"end":428.932,"text":"：賴瑞隆：賴瑞隆：賴瑞隆："},{"start":449.455,"end":477.195,"text":"是的 謝謝委員好 謝謝部長了接下來我要再講的是除了這個它的旁邊而已啦其實有一個前鎮的原來的加工出口區這個是前鎮的原區啦那經過過去沈榮金部長包括王苗部長的大力支持我們做了一個前瞻的這個計畫241來改造把一些舊的大樓改造跟部長提到以前我第一次當立委的時候還有那個建築長一棵榕樹長在上面的"},{"start":477.615,"end":497.189,"text":"後來我們找了經費之後把它給拆掉現在蓋成嶄新的科技的大樓現在新的產業都進駐我認為這個都是未來高雄發展、亞灣發展一個重要的願景我也希望部長繼續支持在前瞻園區的這個風華再現的計畫繼續投入更多的一些建設讓老舊的大樓更新同時間"},{"start":498.03,"end":498.31,"text":"請部長也持續來重視"},{"start":515.37,"end":534.266,"text":"在我看部長的報告裡面其實你提到了幾個重點不管是半導體AI甚至於投資全球的布局供電的部分我剛也提到了我想供電的部分持續來推動相關的不管是燃氣電廠我們來支持以外我想綠電也是一個非常重要產業而且是全世界不管是我們在這個"},{"start":536.507,"end":551.861,"text":"剪碳的部分我們的一些長遠的目標這也是國際的各企業所重視的那我們看到其實這個不管是光電離岸風電甚至於整個一些地熱等等的部長未來會持續來大力推動整個綠電吧"},{"start":553.418,"end":567.609,"text":"未來我們是全力推動綠電我認為綠電其實是更具有國人的高度共識核電其實遇到核廢料的問題遇到安全的問題還有人民的溝通的問題其實那都需要相當的時間還有法令的問題"},{"start":568.63,"end":587.993,"text":"我覺得那個都需要相當時間,恐怕也緩不及急,但是綠電是可以加快它的速度的,讓我們過去用這個短購費率的方式去支持,我也希望未來部長這一塊來大力支持,讓我們的電力更加多元化,同時綠電也是國際的趨勢,同時台灣在離岸風電在太陽光電都有非常好的優勢。"},{"start":588.894,"end":588.974,"text":"賴瑞隆"}]}},{"id":"153609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9806afb1893351572c05d12856443da96911da973c502cee6219d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"11:29:49 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oriented的過程當中是不是有一些不同的審核標準？過去靠paper，現在如果完全只靠paper來取向，對基礎科學來說，這是不符合我們的人才需求的。所以你們未來對於AI計畫的審核標準有沒有不一樣？還是只要規劃一個整合型計畫型的AI，你都給他過關？有不一樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員提出來的這個觀點非常好，將來我們在屬於學術研究的前瞻研究這個領域，跟我們在AI的應用推廣，我們需要的人才能夠連結到產業界，這一類的研究計畫、實務型的研究計畫我們會做一些不同的……"],["柯委員志恩：你一定要的。因為現在是基礎科學，你完全沒有辦法，就像我剛剛講的，你上網去看，老師如果沒有透過產業界來跟他做一個鍵接的話，光是靠現在的基礎科學老師，我們都知道我們博士學完之後二十幾年來，我們也是不斷自己study，但是那是跟產業的一個關聯，所以AI這個部分的審核標準以後一定要不一樣，包括AI所造成的學術倫理的部分。","我兒子在美國的微軟工作，他告訴我說，他們現在所有的資料都是完全用ChatGTP來做，我一聽就嚇傻了，問他怎麼可以用這個方法，他就告訴我，ChatGTP就做得比人腦蒐集資料更好，他們是在ChatGTP幫忙蒐集資料之後，往上去發展他們的腦袋瓜，對不對？這是他們的觀念，這是產業界的做法。但是學業界要怎麼來做？如果今天學生透過ChatGTP幫忙整理一套訊息，那你國科會對於這樣的論文所牽涉的學術倫理怎麼樣來界定？你們現在所界定的違反學術倫理只有八大項，那請問用ChatGTP來幫助做很多資料蒐集的這個部分，要引用什麼樣的標準？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分的確像委員講的，因為ChatGTP最厲害的能力就是可以生成本來就不存在的東西。"],["柯委員志恩：是。那你怎麼辦？你現在要不要改你的這個樣態？"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以將來我們的確要檢討。"],["柯委員志恩：不要將來，現在馬上就面臨這個問題，你現在只有列出八大項違反學術倫理，完全沒有辦法符合這樣子的樣態，這時候會造成學校老師跟學生的觀念有非常大的落差，而且你還要去比對，之前因為有人碩士論文造假，大家覺得比對好像一句話，當你承認ChatGTP可以幫忙做很多資料搜尋的時候，整個樣態又不一樣了。不是未來，現在馬上，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：現在馬上。"],["柯委員志恩：馬上。你必須要立即做出來，否則我們現在指導學生都不知道該怎麼辦，我都不曉得指導出來的學生要怎麼跟他做比對，現在已經不是比對的問題，當你承認ChatGTP可以幫學生做文獻探討的部分、可以幫他收集資料的時候，我的signed、citation要怎麼弄？我要怎麼弄？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們同仁跟我講，我們已經把指引……"],["柯委員志恩：說到指引，現在6月是論文的旺季，這個東西很重要。","然後接下來我還是要問一下，這是你們國科會內部的一個問題，當初有一個原計畫，就是推動可信任生成的AI計畫，112年你們編列了兩億多，主委知道這件事吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：知道。"],["柯委員志恩：你們的前任政委要下台之前，也不過在一個禮拜的時間，馬上編列了近八千萬的經費，過去國科會如果編大型的計畫、經費上億的話，通常要半年的審核，很少數只用一個月審核，這個計畫審核是一個禮拜，為什麼這麼急？一個禮拜之內就要求你認帳，而且還是沒有經過這樣一個程序，馬上編列八千萬，有這麼急嗎？這個對你來說，是不是你的挑戰？你必須要一個禮拜之內認定這八千萬的計畫，這不符合你們過去的流程。你知道這件事嗎？回去查一下吧！"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：不好意思，跟委員報告一下，一開始TAIDE是用跨部會署科發基金，是一年的計畫，到今年4月截止，那麼……"],["柯委員志恩：我只告訴你，你這個流程就在新主委上任之前的一個禮拜就核准了這個八千萬的短期計畫，這個流程基本上跟你們過去國科會是不一樣的，所以我必須要很清楚地知道。接下來，你看你們現在做的這個計畫當中，50%的預算你說是模型精進，我沒有問題，八千多萬有20%用在蒐集資料，你覺得這樣的配比合理嗎？還有你要把20%的經費花在素養上面，這個素養的應用你要不要解釋一下？還有包括哪一些的語言？有臺語、客語等等之類的？有哪些產業？我要求你把在你上任之前一個禮拜就核定的八千萬，還有包括這些經費的分配，給我一個非常完整的報告，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以。"],["柯委員志恩：可以。一個禮拜之內請給我。"],["吳主任委員誠文：一個禮拜。"],["柯委員志恩：還有我剛剛有特別提到，國科會負責很多學術界的資源分配，那我就要問一下，你們現在有這麼大一筆經費，你們真的很像是過手的財神一樣，你們經費編列完畢之後就是給這些地方，那我接下來要問，這幾個經費當中，例如這幾項公文，我只是隨便舉出幾個，這些部門本身就可以做計畫了，卻來跟我們國科會申請錢，你不覺得這個資源有點重複嗎？數發部所屬的這些機構裡面本身就可以申請自己的經費，為什麼還要來跟國科會申請？你們這樣做資源難道不會有重疊的問題嗎？部會發包給部會，資源到底會不會重疊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，依照現在的體制……"],["柯委員志恩：你們合法，但是基本上這個部分就是我所強調的重疊，更不要說下面一個。","還有，我們還聽到你們有很多子計畫，很多單位、很多學校告訴我們，你們的科技辦公室裡面的計畫是先給你們的科政中心，同樣是計畫主持人，從學校借調然後掌管這樣一個計畫，再發包回去給原來的學校，很多時候的子計畫是給一些相關的單位。我為什麼要特別提出來？因為我們都在國科會申請計畫，我要知道計畫的分配和計畫的公平性；還有，一個人擁有大型的計畫又分包下去給原來的學校，甚至給自己的徒子徒孫！這樣的一個系統，就是我們說的學閥的系統，這是學術界覺得非常需要改進的！","所以我認為，如果國科會下面所屬的計畫主持人是來自於你們國科會本身，然後把總計畫發包給下面的子計畫，這些部分我都要有一貫完整的報告讓我們瞭解，我們的資源分配是否符合公平、透明跟公正的原則，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。我也不喜歡這個樣子，師生關係應該要迴避，國科會內部如果有這種事情，我絕對要禁止。聽到了？大家都聽到了？"],["柯委員志恩：對，對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不要養成這種學閥，我非常痛恨這種事情！"],["柯委員志恩：對。所以主委，這就是我們在學術界裡面、在申請經費當中，每個人就要往總計畫裡面去做，那總計畫那個頭是誰，有人覺得師承於那個總計畫就可以得到一些子計畫，很多子計畫完畢之後，執行者不管在升等或未來的聲望上面都可以得到助益，但是就只有掌握幾個子計畫。國科會下面有非常多從學校借調過來的人，這整個系統我希望主委能夠給我一個完整的報告，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我同意。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝柯志恩召委。好，主委請回。","我們接下來請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 (AI)推動現況與未來\n方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.39721875,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.24909375,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.09284375,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.716593750000001,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.391593750000002,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.25971875,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.38784375,"end":130.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.09534375,"end":128.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.01909375,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.45659375,"end":173.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.41846875000002,"end":166.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.77596875,"end":193.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.53659375,"end":264.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.09471875000003,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.76096875000002,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.54221875,"end":274.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.61284375,"end":273.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.60409375,"end":278.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.65034375,"end":276.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.51096875,"end":276.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.29534375000003,"end":280.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.59471875,"end":307.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.06721875,"end":308.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.92784375,"end":314.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.10846875000004,"end":314.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.42909375,"end":314.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.78346875,"end":329.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.39721875000004,"end":334.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.90284375000005,"end":354.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.30721875,"end":338.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.89784375000005,"end":338.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.59159375,"end":355.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.29596875000004,"end":356.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.71784375000004,"end":381.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.87846875,"end":392.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.85971875,"end":394.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.62721875,"end":397.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.43284375,"end":409.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.23721875,"end":408.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.97534375000004,"end":454.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.14971875000003,"end":455.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.41971875,"end":496.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.14096875,"end":457.76534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.57346875,"end":501.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.84284375000004,"end":504.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.88034375,"end":514.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.06596875,"end":505.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.4653437500001,"end":517.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.77284375,"end":520.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.6584687500001,"end":522.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.7465937500001,"end":524.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.11346875,"end":590.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.1159687500001,"end":592.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.6303437500001,"end":592.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.9509687500001,"end":598.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.92471875,"end":600.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.6965937500001,"end":601.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.9115937500001,"end":602.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.28284375,"end":604.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.1303437500001,"end":607.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.05846875,"end":635.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.9653437500001,"end":636.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.35346875,"end":637.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.96471875,"end":640.1672187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.421,"end":9.862,"text":"主委好主委好因為這個AI目前是台灣最熱門的一個關鍵字但我想想看這個我們有關於全國的科技的這個會議最近開的話應該是在109年也是3年半前所以有關全國的科技會議當中也特別提到了那時候就提到如何育才、留才跟攬才"},{"start":33.989,"end":39.391,"text":"他們希望能夠取出具體的一個政策但是數字會說話我們來看看到底有沒有什麼成效上次我已經提過了我們的數位競爭力每一年都在下降然後呢我們就這個STEM大家知道嘛這個STEM的人才這個科學、科技、工程、數學領域10年當中大概少了也將近10萬人"},{"start":55.896,"end":80.817,"text":"而且有關於這個STEM領域的博士的人數也少了4000多人這個減幅是在26%以上主委你應該知道這個警訊吧雖然我們每個人都知道台灣是AI人才的創造中心每個人就是看重台灣的人才可是當我們這麼多的人才不斷在流失的時候這也是一個我今天我們看下面這些圖我想每個人今天幾乎所有的委員都來"},{"start":81.377,"end":81.497,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":102.332,"end":103.973,"text":"國科會是負責在學術裡面當中做很多的分配你覺得我們現在大學的師子有辦法來培育頂尖未來產業所需要的人才嗎"},{"start":119.757,"end":137.444,"text":"現在是有能力啦就是我們有頂尖的研究型的大學那我們也有一些計時體系的學校是可以培養產業需求的人才是啊但是我看了一下台青教跟AI有關係的這些教授學者們大概"},{"start":138.524,"end":144.686,"text":"不是那麼多,都是在英特爾頂多是在英特爾有做過幾年的經驗那很多都還是來做本土的一個訓練我並沒有說本土訓練不行但是呢我覺得這個面臨一個跟產業間一個很大的間接所以你國科會未來在做這個academic oriented的過程當中是不是有一些不同的審核的標準過去靠paper來現在你如果完全只靠paper來取向基礎科學來說這不符合我們人才需求的"},{"start":166.653,"end":171.635,"text":"所以你們未來對於這個AI計畫的審核的標準有沒有不一樣還是我只要畫一個整合型計畫寫一個AI你都給它過關有不一樣嗎委員提出來這個觀點非常的好將來我們在屬於學術研究的前瞻研究這個領域跟我們在AI的應用推廣我們需要人才能夠連結到產業界這一類的這個研究計畫實務型的研究計畫我們會做一些不同的這個"},{"start":193.626,"end":216.958,"text":"你一定要的因為你現在完全是基礎科學你完全沒有辦法因為現在就算我告訴你你上去上網去看嘛老師唯有在產業界當中他如果沒有透過產業界來跟他做一個間接的話光是靠現在基礎科學這些老師我們都知道我們離開博士學完之後二十幾年來我們也是用過去也是不斷自己study但是那是跟產業的一個關聯所以說AI這個部分在你審核標準以後一定要面臨不一樣"},{"start":217.278,"end":232.295,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":232.295,"end":256.9,"text":"他們就做得比你人腦收集資料更好我們是基植於CHAP GPT幫我們收集資料之後往上去發展我們的腦袋瓜 對不對這是他們的觀點這是產業界但是學業界學界你怎麼來如果我今天學生透過CHAP GPT幫我整理一套的訊息那你這個部分你的國科會的論文當中它的學術倫理你怎麼樣來界定你們現在所界定的學術倫理違反是只有八大項"},{"start":258.14,"end":273.069,"text":"請問用CHAP GPT來幫助我做很多資料的收集這個部分我的引用什麼樣的標準?這一部分的確像委員講的因為CHAP GPT它最厲害的能力就是它可以生成生成本來就不存在的東西那你怎麼辦?你現在要不要改你的這個樣態?"},{"start":279.315,"end":283.818,"text":"所以將來我們的確要檢討你不要將來,現在馬上就命令你現在馬上就命令你現在只有這八大項完全沒有辦法符合他的這樣的這下你會造成學校老師跟學生非常大的落差而且你還要去比對現在那個比對之前因為碩士造假比對大家覺得好像好像一句話現在checkGBT當你承認他可以幫你來做很多資料搜尋的時候整個的樣態又不一樣了不是未來現在馬上好不好現在馬上"},{"start":309.216,"end":327.608,"text":"馬上就必須要立即做出來,否則我們現在指導的學生我都不知道該怎麼辦。我都不想他指導我出來的學生我怎麼樣跟他做比對,現在已經不是比對的問題。當你承認checkGPT可以幫學生做那個文獻探討的部分,可以幫他做收集的時候,我的side,我的citation我要怎麼弄?我要怎麼弄?"},{"start":329.709,"end":351.188,"text":"我們同仁跟我講我們已經在把這個指引了現在6月是碩士論文的旺季好不好這個東西很重要然後接下來我還是要問一下嘛對不對那你現在原計畫我要請問一下這是你們國科會內部的一個問題當初有個原計畫就是推動可信任生成的AI計畫112年你們編列了2億多主委知道這件事吧"},{"start":357.243,"end":367.046,"text":"接下來 對不起 你們的前任政委要下台之前也不過在一個禮拜時間馬上編列了7900近8000萬的一個經費過去國科會如果大型的計畫上億的話通常要半年的審核起碼很少數只有一個月的審核你現在是一個禮拜為什麼有這麼急你一個禮拜之內就要求你認賬而且還是沒有經過這樣一個程序馬上編列8000萬"},{"start":381.969,"end":392.578,"text":"你不覺得有這麼急嗎?這個對他說是不是你的挑戰?你不需要一個禮拜之內認定這八千萬的這樣子的一個所謂的計畫這不符合你們過去的一個流程喔你知道這件事嗎?回去查一下吧"},{"start":398.507,"end":411.119,"text":"我還是跟委員報告一下齁,因為那個台的,我們一開始發台的是用跨部會屬科法接近是一年的計劃,到今年4月截止。那麼,要協...我只告訴你,你110月、110月,你這個流程上面就在我們的新主委上任之前的一個禮拜,就核准了這個8000萬的短期計劃。這個流程基本上跟你們過去國會是不一樣的。"},{"start":420.487,"end":427.034,"text":"所以我必須要很清楚的知道接下來嘛你看嘛你們現在做這個計劃當中你百分之五是預算說模型經驗我沒有問題百分之八千多百分之二是在收集資料你卻這樣的配比還有你的素養你有百分之二十的經費發在素養上面這個素養的應用你要不要解釋一下還有包括哪些的語言有台語、客語等等之類的"},{"start":442.85,"end":445.133,"text":"他是由哪些產業我要求一個禮拜之內把這一個最新在你上任之前一個禮拜就核定的八千萬還有包括你這些的經費的分配給我一個非常完整的報告可以嗎"},{"start":455.145,"end":455.505,"text":"國會負責很多學術界的分配"},{"start":474.126,"end":493.222,"text":"這麼多的幾項工我只是隨便舉出幾個你們在很多的各部門當中他們本身就可以做計畫了卻來跟我們國科會申請錢你不覺得這個資源有點重複嗎?數法部本身下面你們所屬的這些機構裡面本身就可以申請你們自己的一個經費為什麼還要來跟國科會?你們這樣資源難道不會有重疊的一個問題嗎?"},{"start":497.606,"end":521.943,"text":"不會有資源的部會發包給部會,你的資源到底會不會重疊?不是依照現在的體制你們合法但是基本上面這個部分就是我所強調的重疊更不要說下面一個還有包括你們的委員會裡面的你們的最下面最後最後的部分你們的這個很多人不對再往下面看到再往下面最後"},{"start":523.943,"end":535.231,"text":"還有一個在最後的裡面我們還提到你們的很多子計劃很多單位因為我們都是屬於學校不是這一張我們很多的學校裡面就告訴我們你們的科技辦公室裡面的計劃先給你們的這個科證中心同樣是計劃主持人"},{"start":540.054,"end":544.235,"text":"從學校借調然後掌管的這樣一個計畫當中再發包回去給很多時候的子計畫是給一些相關的單位我只認為我為什麼要特別提出來因為國科會我們都在科科會申請計畫計畫的分配計畫的公平性還有一個也擁有大型的計畫當中又分包下去給原來的學校甚至給自己的徒子徒孫這樣的一個系統就是我們說的學法的系統這是學術界覺得非常需要改進的"},{"start":569.56,"end":593.837,"text":"所以我認為如果國科會下面所屬的計畫主持人是來自於你們國科會本身然後呢他下面如何把這樣的總計畫發包給下去的子計畫的這一些部分我都要有一段完整的報告讓我們了解是不是我們的資源分配是符合公平透明跟公正的一個原則可以嗎謝謝委員我也不喜歡這個樣子對私生關係應該要迴避國科會內部如果有這種事情我絕對要禁止"},{"start":598.953,"end":599.914,"text":"聽到了齁?大家都聽到了齁?不要養成這種學法"},{"start":606.135,"end":611.357,"text":"主委,這就是我們在學術界裡面在申請經費當中每個人就要往總計畫裡面去做那總計畫那個頭是誰你要施成於那個總計畫你就覺得你可以得到一些子計畫我因為有很多子計畫完畢之後我不管在升等在未來的這個聲望上面我可以但是就只有掌握在幾個子計畫你們下面裡面有非常多從學校借調過來的這裡面整個的系統我希望主委能夠給我一個完整的報告"},{"start":636.109,"end":636.933,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9851d7b64960bd3a3ca6cabf0dc0d1a8b711da973c502cee621936c39b81b8ab135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:18:03 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11:30:23","影片長度":"00:12:20","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:18:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:30:23+08:00","duration":740,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時18分）主席好，有請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["陳委員超明：郭部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：你從企業界出身，非常注重公司治理，崇越集團這麼大的公司在你手裡茁壯長大，表示公司的治理非常好。我很少對國營事業提出質詢，今天我要跟部長報告，台糖的畜牧養殖場到現在一直都沒有完成，而且接受調查，現在還有未爆彈，請部長好好地確實瞭解一下。公司的競爭要公平，不要被人為因素所影響，民間公司有自信、有能力，大家去調整，這是第一點。台糖人員不要緊張，請回座，有必要問你，我會跟你講。我們要有合理、公平的待遇。","第二，大家談到輝達研發中心，高雄要、哪裡也要，我不知道郭部長經營企業期間有沒有到過我們苗栗？是不是只到新竹科學園區，就沒有過來我們苗栗？"],["郭部長智輝：有啦，我也是苗栗很重要的客人。"],["陳委員超明：好，我知道。我跟你說，我們苗栗好山好水，除了有5座水庫，現在準備再蓋一座，還有通霄火力發電廠，所以不缺水也不缺電。第二個，好山好水，遠景非常好，勞動力也非常的足夠，尤其是它鄰近新竹科學園區。部長，不能只往綠的執政縣市或是往大都市走，我們苗栗是中心點，北邊是新竹科學園區、南邊是臺中科學園區，只缺了這一段，你把輝達的研發中心設在苗栗就是功德無量，幫我這個忙，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["陳委員超明：你好好想，我說的不假，對於這個地點我也多少了解啦！"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我向你報告，做data center不是只有輝達一家而已。"],["陳委員超明：我知道、我知道有好幾家，包括……"],["郭部長智輝：我們來爭取後續好幾家都要來、好幾家都要來。"],["陳委員超明：好幾家都要來？"],["郭部長智輝：好幾家都要來。"],["陳委員超明：台積電……在竹南設一個半導體產業鏈園區，大矽谷計畫就是考慮在那個地方，不要偏袒。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員超明：給苗栗一個繁榮發展的機會，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：因為有很多的數據中心即將成立，苗栗的條件這麼好，他們一定會選擇。"],["陳委員超明：我們的條件很好，全省都沒有我們苗栗的條件好，他們都是臭屁的，但我們是實在的！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：再來，主席，你別牽拖！說什麼立法委員的職權行使法會讓外資跑掉，哎喲！國際生意炒來炒去，不要被這個影響，尤其是不能說賣掉就好，好不好？它有一好，但是我已經稱讚過一點了，這點不太好。","部長，我認為你這個經濟部長的位置可以坐穩滿滿的4年，你真的很好，尤其是現在AI產業的九大巨頭都來臺灣拉樁腳，就跟我們選舉一樣，把他們都拉過來當我的靠山，但是你要注意一個問題，這個部長位置能否坐得穩，水、電、勞工一定要好好準備。水的部分，水利署，最近下了很多雨，你可以坐下來、可以坐在那邊，很少有人會注意。電的部分，我們的曾次長、曾董事長要加油，現在大家都說電不夠，但是那麼久以來，我也全力支持台電在通霄的各種建設，像是通霄電廠，離岸風力第一座也是我支持你們成功的，所以你要打拼，不要讓部長擔憂。我相信窮則變，變則通，你把電顧好。再來是勞工很欠缺，我告訴你，所以這一點你就穩穩了。","但是我教你一點，不要亂講話，反核、核電，你不要說覺得有必要，反核是執政黨的神主牌、是執政黨的護黨神山，我告訴你，你不要亂講話，否則你的官位馬上不保，因為是好朋友，我才告訴你的。現在我告訴你的是實際的，你不要只是帶著微笑，這是深刻體驗，我們不要去把人家的神主牌拆掉，不然官位就不保、黨運不隆，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝、謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：再來一點，關於AI產業，你講到了一個重點，現在所有的AI產業都在講伺服器，伺服器有好幾家都會做，但是部長要有一個能力，我們不是廉價的勞工啊！那個會像紅海市場殺來殺去，到最後都沒有利潤，跟我們的電腦一樣，你不要搞到只有3%的利潤，這是可預期到的。你看這些大咖來抓樁腳，他們也是要來砍價格啦！因為只有台積電能做出來，我們才有這樣，希望你能深深的體會到，我們不能讓臺灣的廠商自相殘殺。另外，我要特別提出，AI是運算周邊的能力、創新的能力最重要，這一點要加強，臺灣在AI周邊應用的能力一定要加強。","今天早上我看到一則報導，你在五年內要領IC設計業躋身前面排名，這個好，軟體賺錢，硬體是載來載去，載到最後我們臺灣很可憐，非常漂亮，但是沒有真的賺到錢，這一點，我相信你有深深的感受，因為你賣台晶圓的原料，比較不會感受到，下面的員工的話，我說的有沒有道理，你回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：對臺灣來講，未來我們要全力發展的就是AI的應用人才。"],["陳委員超明：對。"],["郭部長智輝：如同委員所指導的，硬體是賺不了什麼錢，AI Server比較有實力的大家都有辦法做，不過要怎麼利用AI、訓練AI、使用AI，這個就是我們以後百工百業都能學習及應用。"],["陳委員超明：部長，打個岔，這個我知道，你的人才，這些世界大公司過來，以前高通在這邊設研發中心，承諾要投資7億美金作為對我們的賠償，結果做投資地減用，它把7億拿去將薪水抬高，結果去拉台積電的人、台積電的人又去拉聯發科的人、聯發科的人又去拉下面的人，臺灣訓練的就是這些人才，未來你也會遭遇到這樣的狀況，我一直在強調這一點。但是我們的薪水為什麼一直都沒提高？美國可以印鈔票，我們臺灣不能印鈔票，他們給那麼高的薪水，你以後帶動臺灣，所以包括勞工在內，這個是環環相扣的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["陳委員超明：要對臺灣有實質幫忙的啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員超明：好嗎？你要注意這個問題啊！他們美國的鈔票很容易印，但我們是很可憐辛苦存起來的，你和我都一樣，而且你更有經驗，有那麼大的企業，我相信你也能感受到。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，這次所有要來臺灣做數據中心的大廠，我們都要求一定要用一半從國外帶來的工程師，假設需要2,000人，只能在臺灣選1,000人，它必須帶1,000位國外的工程師過來。"],["陳委員超明：不然臺灣的薪水那麼低，人才都跑掉了，我現在擔心的是這個，你也知道嘛！你補充不來，我給你綠卡、我給你什麼優惠的待遇，你要想通些，我相信你是有感受的。","有一點我要誇獎主席，我們剛剛通過的再生醫療法，要好好注意啊！這麼大的健康產業，我向部長報告，可能有一個護國神山會出現，但是我覺得針對生技產業，經濟部的編制太小、太小，這麼大的產業竟然也是你們負責，衛福部只負責人體試驗，麻煩針對生技產業的試驗要加強。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["陳委員超明：最後一個問題，賴委員那麼好，讓我多講幾分鐘，再1、2分鐘就好。剛剛說的五大產業，半導體產業、人工智慧產業看起來是可以的，安控產業就是與資安軟體有關係，通信產業5G、6G以及低軌衛星，這個都在發展，世界都在拚。現在的軍工產業，你怎麼不來報告？我剛剛到立法院看了很多買賣武器、做飛機的在這邊繞來繞去，與這個有關係嗎？我也看過你的業務報告，你說你指導的只有三個，軍工產業不在那一邊，我只講一句話，不要把臺灣當作武器國，我們可以做代工、做加工，我們要……因為你講的一句話很重要，今天有一篇報導，部長可能要接受地緣政治的考驗，剛剛說大陸的不要，改天我與你討論ECFA。其實ECFA很嚴重，你們講得輕描淡寫，尤其是我碰到很多，成衣的布料進去，本來臺商在那，都買臺灣的布料，現在他們不敢買，8%的關稅。","我相信實業界的人出來要面對問題、解決問題，不要講得那麼好聽，現在是你好狗運耶！剛好遇到AI電腦展的聲勢這麼大，百花燦爛，臺灣很有前途，其實把ECFA蓋掉了。但是要好好去做，中小企業是本，其中有很多隱形企業的冠軍，不要輕描淡寫將他們忽視掉，改天再與你討論中小企業就會有危險。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝你的指教。"],["陳委員超明：你說的一些，什麼去越南要叫那些遊客來、世界到處走，從前你們這些企業的有錢人都去日本，不要用那種遊覽的心態、觀光的心態，好不好？寫的報告不切實際。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，部長，請回座休息。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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Center齁,不是只有輝達一間而已。我知道,我是澳大利亞的經理,澳大利亞整個大陸都要來。"},{"start":170.322,"end":170.942,"text":"陳超明委員：陳超明"},{"start":200.702,"end":200.802,"text":"再來部長："},{"start":226.618,"end":252.473,"text":"我看你這個經濟部長會長四年多你真的很好尤其現在AI的那個產業裏面世界所有的九大巨頭都全部在臺灣的U跳馬卡跟我們選舉一樣把他拉過來 拉過來當我的靠山所以請問但是這一點你要注意一個問題你會不會找這個部長"},{"start":255.649,"end":279.501,"text":"水電勞工你一定要好好準備那水的話水歷史最近天下很多雨你可以坐下來可以坐在那邊很少人吃電我們的曾次長曾董事長要加油現在大家都講你見不過但是我跟台電那麼久我也全力的在支持台電通銷各種建設"},{"start":281.779,"end":303.511,"text":"通宵、電廠、離岸婚禮第一座都是我在跟你們支持成功的。施亂就好了。您要努力。不要給部長擔憂。我相信窮則變,變則通。您把電鍋給我恢復。在這裡的勞工很欠缺,我跟您講。所以這一點,您就溫溫了。但是我教你一個,您不需要亂講話。"},{"start":306.857,"end":325.414,"text":"核電反核,核電你不要講,說我覺得有必要,反核是執政黨的神主牌,是執政黨的赫黨神山啊。我會說你們亂講的,不然你講的馬上不保,我和朋友我才跟你講啊。"},{"start":326.769,"end":350.437,"text":"我告訴你你不要只有帶著微笑這個深刻體驗我們不要去把人家孫子爬台上不然官位不老黨運不容好不好謝謝 謝謝委員再來一點你講到AI的產業你有講到一個重點現在所有AI的產業都在講伺服器"},{"start":352.674,"end":375.881,"text":"好幾家都會做,但是保定你要有一個能力喔!我們不是廉價的勞工啦!優秀的廉價勞工,那該不會是鴻海市長?啥來上去都沒有利潤。跟我們的電腦一樣,你不要感到只有3%的利潤,這個可以預取得到。你看一些大咖來抓莊角,他也是要來砍下閣啦!"},{"start":377.847,"end":405.147,"text":"因為只有臺積電能做出來我們才有這樣我希望你有深深的體會到我們不能讓臺灣的廠商自相的殘差另外我特別提到AI是它的運算桌邊的能力創新能力最重要這一點要加強把臺灣在AI應用邊緣應用的那個能力一定要加強我今天早上看了一個說"},{"start":406.857,"end":431.662,"text":"你在五年內要領IC設計廠提升錢牌,這個好,軟禮賺錢,硬體是載來載去,載到最後我們台灣很可憐,非常漂亮,但是沒有真的賺到錢,這點我相信你有深深的感受,因為你賣台青鹽的顏料比較不會感受到,我講了沒得力了,你跟我回答一下。"},{"start":433.015,"end":447.947,"text":"我想這個臺灣來講的話,未來我們要全力發展的就是AI的這個應用人才,因為這個如同這個委員所指導的,這個硬體是賺不了什麼錢,這個AI社會,比較有實力的大家都發動做。"},{"start":451.451,"end":452.452,"text":"這世界大公司來"},{"start":470.816,"end":486.13,"text":"我以前高通在這邊設研發中心他有一個7億美金的本來要來做我們賠償結果做投資遞減用他這7億貼以刑事押款去叫台積電的人台積電的人去叫研發課的人研發課的人就去叫學科的人"},{"start":490.013,"end":510.455,"text":"臺灣今年就是這麼人在地啊李慧榮來遭遇到這樣我一直在強調這一點但是我們的形勢一直怎樣都不體感美國可以印鈔票我們臺灣不能印鈔票因為他管理形勢你以後要帶動臺灣所以你保管老公這個是環環相扣的啊對臺灣是很有幫忙的啊"},{"start":513.138,"end":517.201,"text":"我跟委員報告,這邊所有的大型的來臺灣做數據中心,我們都有要求他一定要用一半,為外國出來的港領事"},{"start":540.39,"end":541.33,"text":"我們的那個那個什麼三話那個什麼剛剛通過了"},{"start":569.641,"end":570.527,"text":"你只要再生化"},{"start":571.553,"end":597.935,"text":"要好好治癒啊這大健康產業啊我跟我們的部長報告可能有一個護國損傷會出現但是我覺得你們在生技產業裡面經濟部的編制太小太小既然大產業也是你們在負責不是衛福部他只有負責整體試驗在那個生技產業的試驗之中"},{"start":600.277,"end":627.77,"text":"麻煩,這個要加強。最後一個問題,你站起來再一兩分鐘。那裡面有談到,我剛剛你五大產業,半導體產業,人工智慧產業看起來可以了。那安控產業就是跟資安軟體有關係。那通信產業5G、6G,包括你低軌衛星,這個都在發展,世界都在拼。"},{"start":629.58,"end":651.931,"text":"現在有一個軍工產業阿你怎麼不來報告我剛剛到立法院看了很多阿那個做買賣武器阿做飛機在這邊繞來繞去阿這有什麼關係我也看你的那個業務報告你說你指導的只有三個軍工產業不在那邊我只講一句話"},{"start":653.291,"end":668.04,"text":"不要把臺灣當作武器我們可以做代工做加工我們要監視其間因為你講的一句話很重要今天有一篇報章你部長可能就要接受地緣政治的考驗"},{"start":669.315,"end":669.475,"text":"陳超明"},{"start":687.955,"end":704.661,"text":"我相信十月借人出來要面對問題解決問題,不要說人好聽,現在是你好果硬的,就說我們的AI電腦展這樣舒適很大,百花燦爛台灣最有前途,其實要求法把要求法閹掉。"},{"start":705.401,"end":706.822,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":721.196,"end":721.417,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153607","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153607","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c983cae58f5af3b398f05d12856443da96911da973c502cee6278d6bc62b0328a145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:18:34 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(AI)推動現況與未來\n方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":7.3209687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.324718750000002,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.84346875,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.535343750000003,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.868468750000002,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.969718750000006,"end":132.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.87096875,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.65596875,"end":189.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.21221875,"end":199.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.81846875000002,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.31909375,"end":209.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.46221875,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.36784375000002,"end":220.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.36596875,"end":232.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.64846875,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.87596875000003,"end":241.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.76534375000003,"end":296.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.11034375,"end":275.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.45034375,"end":286.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.66909375,"end":291.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.35596875000005,"end":325.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.10659375,"end":405.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.43159375000005,"end":442.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.48909375000005,"end":449.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.96471875000003,"end":451.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.25159375000004,"end":451.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.77471875000003,"end":509.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.47659375,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.48721875,"end":510.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.80346875000004,"end":510.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.82034375,"end":538.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.97221875,"end":511.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.34346875,"end":623.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.49471875,"end":644.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.7278437500001,"end":644.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.79096875,"end":646.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.2253437500001,"end":651.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.9128437500001,"end":648.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.3047187500001,"end":655.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.13534375,"end":656.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.16471875,"end":657.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.2109687500001,"end":660.0122187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.83,"end":3.231,"text":"主委 聽我請了 謝謝還有葉次長、蘇發布 謝謝"},{"start":11.262,"end":37.552,"text":"主委好我想會定這個題目最主要是真的是AI應用的浪潮正在席捲全世界特別是2022年11月這個OpenAI將這個CHAP GPT開放給大眾使用之後帶出了這個生成式AI的新序幕那我想用"},{"start":38.092,"end":42.954,"text":"更配合這個回答的執行長黃仁勳來台．加起一陣旋風當然我想他的演講也讓我們台灣有很多的啟發特別他也強調人工智慧和加速運算將重新定義未來"},{"start":58.461,"end":67.648,"text":"科技飛速帶來那麼的便利可是這個同時我們要注意的是什麼因為它會相伴著很多的風險跟使用上的疑慮還有我們各種法制作業所需的建構首先想要跟你用這個新聞來跟你探討這個生成式AI應用過程中合理使用的界限"},{"start":83.098,"end":86.72,"text":"還有這個智慧財產權保護的問題這個就是那個今年4月復興商工的校內的美術展覽的競賽然後首獎的作品遭事後發現說他是AI生成的有這個新聞那很多的學者都有出面表示說AI的使用已經是勢在必行那重點應該放在說怎麼教育學生如何正確的使用AI"},{"start":111.733,"end":133.612,"text":"所以創作屬於自己的作品而且具備所謂的財產智慧權的概念可是從這個事件來我們可以看出說AI的應用會改變創作的原創性的定義就是說我們可以把AI視作一種工具可是當然也可以同時把它視作是直接的產出"},{"start":134.813,"end":154.78,"text":"但是無論是寫作業也好競賽創作也好或真是作品AI的應用過程跟結果就應該如何規範或者應該如何對人民進到基本的素養教育我想國科會跟數位發展部責無旁貸"},{"start":158.795,"end":179.906,"text":"想要就教主委跟次長就是說除了國科會在今年我們要10月嘛剛剛很多委員都有就教就是要提出AI基本法的草案進行這個大方向性的規範那在那個之前我們寫作業也好或者競賽創作正式作品的面向我們如何通案性的界定"},{"start":180.586,"end":183.207,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":210.515,"end":235.288,"text":"目前我們是各部會依照這個指引我們這個AI的指引希望大家盡快先在法律還沒有制定之前先有一些指引可以依循然後我們的產業界我們的這個所有的AI的使用者能夠有這個指引他就不會去太濫用這個AI的能力去做一些不合適的事情"},{"start":236.809,"end":264.746,"text":"請市長回答我這個問題就是說我們要怎麼樣去界定這個界限首先跟委員報告有關智慧財產權的部分那它經濟部有所謂智慧財產局那他們來主管著作權、專利法以及商標法所以有關於它是不是著作權的問題可能最後要以這個智慧財產局的說法為準那的確委員所說的沒有錯在這部分有一些法律上的爭議譬如說AI所生成的算不算是一種著作物"},{"start":265.126,"end":277.881,"text":"以及他著作人是不是應用AI的人這是有爭議的而且很多的學者也都說以AI生成不太能夠把它當作著作人來看待或著作物來看待那這個當然國際上還在討論據我所知智慧局也在根據國際的歧視在做進一步的研究"},{"start":283.687,"end":313.127,"text":"如果有需要的話．他會修改著作權法的規定來做更詳細．或是由智慧局來發布解釋函令．才會更不得精確當然也要看法院的見解因為智慧財產局其實在去年6月．他就表示說AI是利用人如戲單純下指令．他覺得並未投入精神的創作由生成AI模型獨立自助運算而生成的所謂的全新的內容．他覺得該AI的生成內容．"},{"start":313.387,"end":314.287,"text":"主席 林宜瑾 林宜瑾"},{"start":339.575,"end":359.012,"text":"當然這部分剛剛次長跟部長跟主委也有提到一些想法但我還是期待說在這部分要更完備的去做一些周延的規劃另外我想再提幾個就是說美國人工的智慧研究實驗室"},{"start":360.513,"end":380.821,"text":"他在上個月底有發布一個報告他就探討說人工智慧工具如何被用於秘密影響力的這個行動那這份報告有指出說中國、伊朗、俄羅斯、以色列他們的組織都利用open AI工具創造假訊息剛剛有很多委員有提及"},{"start":381.021,"end":404.152,"text":"提及並在社群媒體上發布另外瑞典的大學也有研究說臺灣已經是連續11年受境外假訊息攻擊最嚴重的國家所以可見AI假訊息的資訊攻擊會是我們全球各國特別是臺灣我們要提升防衛意識的很重要的一個目標"},{"start":406.496,"end":413.902,"text":"本席知道說我們速發布在上個月我們就有說要規劃設立所謂剛剛也有很多委員說就是所謂的打詐通報查詢網那利用這個AI對抗AI假訊息那可是在台灣嚴重受到假訊息嚴重的侵擾之下這個有關於AI假訊息的對抗的這個問題不曉得你們目前有什麼具體的解決手段"},{"start":434.4,"end":449.215,"text":"國科會如何跟訴發部合作?除了力抗假訊息的詐騙以外對於所謂的國安不死的訊息有什麼樣防範的做法?"},{"start":452.014,"end":469.234,"text":"跟委員報告,如委員所說的就是說我們現在AI技術所產生的不管是詐騙訊息或假訊息的確在技術上面會越來越難辯證為那數法部有兩個方案來進行第一個是溯源那我們要讓民眾非常能夠簡單的知道說這個來源是可靠的"},{"start":469.774,"end":488.719,"text":"包括簡訊的部分我們政府部門已經使用11如果看到政府部門的來的訊息不是這個11那可能就是有問題那將來我們會進一步推所謂商用檢碼在檢碼上面來源我們跟電信公司合作基本上面沒有詐騙集團使用檢碼的可能性這是第一件事情"},{"start":489.279,"end":505.664,"text":"第二件事情就是說剛剛委員也提到就是我們會努力來建立所謂的詐騙的查詢通報網讓民眾能夠將相關資訊能夠很快的能夠再找到答案說它是不是一個詐騙的案例那這個當然要透過AI技術來掃描以及這個辨識那這個我們會努力來做"},{"start":509.605,"end":509.825,"text":"好,好"},{"start":539.64,"end":554.578,"text":"最後我想提醒一下,我們國科會會開發Tide生成性的AI對話引擎當然現在我們要灌入很多的素材給它用繁體中文的資料"},{"start":556.46,"end":562.763,"text":"關於如何符合台灣文化與台灣價值觀的內容我想這個變成很重要那重點是不能讓歧視與具有偏見的回答內容出現在對話引擎的應用上"},{"start":573.847,"end":590.638,"text":"當然現在台灣社會還是很有很多歧視跟具有偏見的言論層出不窮我們不希望這樣的情形出現在這個人工智慧的對話引擎中我們也要建議說這個歧視的內容要完全杜絕如果它出現文化上的差異至少要併成回答"},{"start":595.021,"end":622.743,"text":"獲交代脈絡我舉例來說假設我們要使用一個AI的對話引擎想要生成一張具台灣婚禮特色的圖片可是什麼叫做具台灣婚禮的特色光援助民族就有很大的差異所以你如果只讓AI生成一張或一種所謂的台灣特色的婚禮我想這個可能就"},{"start":623.404,"end":624.884,"text":"謝謝委員我們在做這個態度的時候"},{"start":651.61,"end":655.595,"text":"避免歧視與偏見,這也是我們非常努力要做的事。好,OK。謝謝委員。謝謝主委、謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"153605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c980ce47a639775850184a12a82c262ca1011da973c502cee62ea8a73a6fda787c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:17:31 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Vardhan，他是一個耳鼻喉科醫師。我的意思就是說，我為什麼會特別提？剛才我講的是外勞引進的國家，現在我們不是要跟印度簽MOU嗎？那我們有沒有嘗試從這個交易當中跟印度講，也幫忙我們在WHA發聲，應該要有一個這樣的邏輯。"],["邱部長泰源：對，這樣很好。"],["盧委員縣一：這樣的合作模式可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["盧委員縣一：不然我們永遠突破不了那個8年的困境，我們也想辦法讓全世界的人知道我們有多優秀，我們有多努力。我剛剛看了，都是一些，比如說「My health, my right」這些癌症篩檢、偏鄉離島醫療，可是如果我們沒有進去，人家怎麼知道我們到底在做什麼？感覺我們很辛苦，可是得不到實際更好的層面。","第二個，我剛剛看了這個yellow page，就是比較漂亮的這個……"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，有些因為不讓我們公告，其實也有亞洲hapi ，你講的那些國家也有，但是沒有在……"],["盧委員縣一：好，我希望多方面……"],["邱部長泰源：如果私下委員要了解，可以跟你報告。"],["盧委員縣一：好。根據這個yellow page的第二頁，紐西蘭直接為我直言，我想知道它說了什麼？"],["孫司長儉元：報告委員，紐西蘭為我們直言，基本上是說臺灣應該要被邀請參加，就是說在整個促進全球衛生健康至上……"],["盧委員縣一：也就是說它很堅定的幫我們講話。"],["孫司長儉元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：那荷蘭呢？"],["孫司長儉元：荷蘭的話，就是以不遺漏任何人，就是說只要對全球衛生有貢獻的，都應該被納入到這個全球努力當中。"],["盧委員縣一：按照我的理解，荷蘭曾經是我們的殖民國家，曾經殖民過臺灣，它當然有想盡辦法可以幫我們，我們也可以想盡辦法跟它touch這個連結。那紐西蘭的話，我知道它是我們南島語系，過去我們的一些族群在那裡，我相信你去深化、去了解一些比較關聯性的，我覺得我們8年的困境可以突破，可以嗎？"],["孫司長儉元：是。"],["盧委員縣一：我們看一下影片，就是剛才你們提供的「My Second Home」，我們從2分16秒開始播放。","（播放影片）"],["盧委員縣一：Taiwan Can Help，這影片做得很好，我很肯定。不過剛剛看了主角以後，你看到我，你有什麼感覺？看到女主角再看到我有什麼感覺？感覺我們像是一家人，因為我們是南島語系的國家。剛剛我只聽了一遍就會說了，「ibu saya」，我也不知道什麼意思，不過我們因為是南島語系的關係，我們會很熟悉那樣的發音，就像之前那個Bongkrekic Acid，就是我們之前的那個食安事件，它是南島語族的話。我的意思就是說，我們在推這個影片的時候，如果它是南島語系的國家，你是不是應該多放在菲律賓、印尼這種比較屬於南島語系的國家，它的觀看次數會更多。目前全世界最大的民主國家是印尼，有兩億多人，那為什麼不放在那邊讓那麼多人來感動？說我們臺灣的醫療有多麼進步，我們不是單純只說我們很會換肝，我們的醫生很厲害，不是這樣。我們是要去證明說，我們是把世界當作是我們的一家人，人家才會認可我們不是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：了解，是。"],["盧委員縣一：這次的南島語族去WHA，我相信沒有一個是我們原住民的代表，所以我希望明年有我們原住民的代表可以去。至少人家看到我們的時候，我們是一家人的感覺會更多，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["盧委員縣一：好不好？謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝盧縣一委員。我先在這邊做一下宣告，在廖偉翔委員質詢結束後處理臨時提案兩案，現在請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.97534375,"end":7.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.29534375,"end":9.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.004093750000003,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.084093750000001,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.809718750000002,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.957218750000003,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.15534375,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.273468750000003,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.218468750000003,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.05346875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.293468750000002,"end":22.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23.04846875,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":23.41971875,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25.07346875,"end":25.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.49909375,"end":29.511593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":29.629718750000002,"end":30.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.23721875,"end":49.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.267843750000004,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.68346875,"end":66.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":67.95284375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":71.80034375000001,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":84.65909375000001,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":87.00471875000001,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":87.08909375,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":94.29471875,"end":98.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":95.91471875,"end":96.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":97.68659375,"end":99.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":99.79596875,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.31909375000001,"end":100.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":100.60596875,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.65659375000001,"end":101.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.85471875,"end":103.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":103.89659375000001,"end":104.45346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.41971875,"end":107.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":104.50409375000001,"end":104.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":104.58846875,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":107.17034375,"end":107.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":107.57534375,"end":109.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":109.29659375000001,"end":109.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.76909375000001,"end":127.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":126.18846875000001,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":128.16284375,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":128.23034375,"end":129.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":129.76596875,"end":146.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.84346875,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":147.06284375,"end":150.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.84284375000001,"end":150.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.87659375,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.80034375,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.55909375000002,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":158.99346875,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":164.79846875,"end":173.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.59971875000002,"end":168.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":169.52346875,"end":172.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.99971875,"end":178.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":179.17596875,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":182.38221875000002,"end":184.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":184.89659375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health my right這些癌症篩檢偏鄉離島可是如果我們沒有進去的人再怎麼知道我們到底在做什麼是感覺說我們很辛苦可是得不到實際的一些更好的一個層面然後第二個就是我剛剛看了就是比較屬於這個"},{"start":157.748,"end":160.149,"text":"紐西蘭為我們直言,我想知道他說了什麼?紐西蘭為我們直言,還記得嗎?"},{"start":187.596,"end":203.226,"text":"是報告委員那紐西蘭為我們直言就是基本上是講說臺灣應該要被邀請這個參加就是說在整個促進全球衛生健康至上人就說他很堅定的幫我們講話那荷蘭呢荷蘭的話就是以不遺漏任何人"},{"start":203.686,"end":219.286,"text":"那包含就是說只要對全球衛生有貢獻的都應該被納入到全球武力當中。按照我的理解荷蘭曾經是我們的殖民國家曾經殖民過臺灣他當然有想盡辦法可以幫我們我們也可以想盡辦法跟他套取這個連結"},{"start":221.608,"end":240.333,"text":"紐西蘭的話我知道的話他是我們南島語系過去的一些我們的一些族群在那裡我相信你去深化去了解一些比較關聯性的我覺得我們幫你的困境可以突破是可以嗎那麼看一下影片我們就是剛才你們提供的My Second Home我們從2分16秒開始播放"},{"start":248.295,"end":259.801,"text":"你和蕭瑞克有相似的脂肪﹑脂肪接種率超過90%,但蕭瑞克已被入院8天﹑治療風險相當高。拜託,拜託不要放棄我女兒,拜託。如果你不放棄,我們也不放棄。"},{"start":285.201,"end":286.702,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":312.243,"end":326.572,"text":"一一一一一一一一一一一一一一一"},{"start":328.443,"end":345.58,"text":"邀請施琳去台灣．替所有人報告。施琳．有什麼想告訴所有人嗎?我非常高興．我的媽媽是我的媽媽．我非常幸福．我的醫生是我的醫生．我非常感激．她重新出生在台灣．"},{"start":358.052,"end":379.717,"text":"這影片做得很好我很肯定不過剛剛看了主角那看了主角以後你看到我你有什麼感覺看到主角你主角看到我有什麼感覺感覺我們像是一家人因為我們是南島語系的國家"},{"start":381.488,"end":396.703,"text":"剛我只聽了一遍我就會說了我以不知道什麼意思不過因為是因為我們南島語系的關係我們會很熟悉那樣的一個發言就像之前那個就是那個我們之前的那個實案事件那是南島語族的話"},{"start":398.064,"end":422.93,"text":"我的意思就是說我們在推這個影片的時候如果他是南島語系的國家你是不是應該多放在菲律賓啊印尼啊這種比較屬於這個南島語系的國家他在觀看次數會更多啊目前全世界最大的民主國家是印尼兩億多人那為什麼不放在那邊讓那麼多人來感動所以我們台灣的醫療有多麼進步我們不是只是展現說我們很會換肝我們的醫生很厲害不是這樣"},{"start":423.73,"end":423.81,"text":"謝謝盧縣一委員"}]}},{"id":"153604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153604","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98366046aede705d7a84a12a82c262ca1011da973c502cee62672d3be51d7c13475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:11:22 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11:17:27","影片長度":"00:06:05","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:11:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:17:27+08:00","duration":365,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":494,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時11分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安，先恭喜您。接下來有非常多千頭萬緒的事情要開展，我們辦公室一直都關心兒少，我們就直接切入兒少的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我想要問，你有小孩對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：有啊，有。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，而且我記得上次去看台維斯盃的時候，我看到你跟小孩一起去看球賽，因為那天我也有去看球賽。"],["邱部長泰源：真的喔。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，看網球賽，只是我不好意思跟你打招呼。部長，我問你，如果再回到20年前、10年前，你要把你的小孩送去這種民間教練的社團學習各式各樣的球類運動，你會不會擔心他遇到有不當對待兒少經驗的教練或者是大人？你會不會擔心？就是說他曾經有過對小孩不好的體罰、霸凌的相關經驗。你會不會擔心如果把小孩送到這樣的教練那裡，但是你又不知道他是這樣的人？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們送小孩去一定會先評估……"],["陳委員培瑜：打聽。"],["邱部長泰源：打聽這個教練班或者是學校，那當然會去偷看。"],["陳委員培瑜：對。"],["邱部長泰源：看他訓練的如何。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，這是技術的部分，但是他過去有沒有欺負小孩，他有沒有霸凌、體罰小孩，其實我們也不知道對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能就不容易了解了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但是是重要的對不對？部長，你身為父親……"],["邱部長泰源：當然。"],["陳委員培瑜：是重要的對嘛，身為父親，你一定覺得重要，但是你現在身為衛福部部長，你是更多孩子的父親，我們來看看怎麼說。","衛福部的CRC這個相關資訊網裡面可以查到，只要有對小孩有不好的紀錄跟相關的教練，我們就從衛福部的這個CRC平台可以查到。目前相關的資料已經都上網，而且目前的狀況也還算不錯，說實話，當然有一些可以改進的地方，因為目前有相關公告姓名機制的法源落在三個法，兒少法、幼照法跟教保條例，也就是說如果我是家長，我現在要去查某某某，例如說陳培瑜有沒有曾經以前體罰過小孩、不當對待、霸凌，讓我的小孩在學球的過程當中受到不好的對待，家長沒有辦法直接查詢。","目前兒少法的部分，我剛剛說其實還是有些困難，可是目前看起來在兒少法CRC的網站上，我們可以看到例如說，第一個人叫黃郁倫，他違反兒童及少年福利與權益保障法第九十七條相關的樣態，詳情點下去就會有一些資料，這個是目前家長查得到的。我們之前就告訴衛福部，你們只有管不是從教育機關來的，可是教育現場也有很多對待小孩不當行為的人，衛福部應該要把資料納進來。所以我們辦公室經過去年一整年不斷跟衛福部討論，我們開了很多協調會，也開了記者會，總算衛福部現在把違反幼照法還有教保服務人員條例的這些跟老師等級有關的資料，也都納進來了。我們非常感謝衛福部非常積極，可是部長你有沒有發現，如果我是一個家長，我按進來，我一下要按這裡，一下要按那裡，基本上我沒有辦法一鍵式查詢，我沒有辦法那麼直覺。對我來說，我身為一個家長，到底要怎麼樣保護我的小孩，確保我的小孩要送去面對這個大人、這個教練、這個老師，他是不是有曾經不當對待小孩的事情？這個部分我覺得我們一定還可以再多做一點什麼事情，那我就直接跟部長分享，我們到底可以做什麼？","我們之前跟衛福部討論的時候，其實也問過衛福部，有沒有可能有技術上的困難，做到所謂一鍵式查詢？我在5月27號就跑去交通委員會問了數發部，因為數發部說他們要做數位樣態的盤點。我就問他，數發部可不可以積極協助衛福部做相關技術的整合，讓家長更直觀的可以一鍵式查詢？所以一剛開始我才會問部長，你身為父親，會不會希望很快速的可以查到，你即將把小孩送去的這個教練，他過去有沒有不當的資料？數發部說他們願意協助衛福部，跨部會調整這個技術層面，一次解決，讓所有的家長可以一個網頁，一鍵式查詢，陳培瑜、某某某有沒有犯過相關的法令。部長聽到這裡，你覺得這樣聽起來，對家長是不是一件好事？"],["邱部長泰源：應該是一件好事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，真的是好事，只是我們需要花一些時間。所以我們在想，我們把時間壓久一點好不好？我們有沒有機會在今年年底前把這個網站建置完成？部長，你看我把時間壓很長。"],["邱部長泰源：請業務單位說明現在進行的怎麼樣。"],["李組長育穎：這個部分我們會再跟數發部做一些確認跟討論，看看後續的介面要怎麼設計會比較完善。"],["陳委員培瑜：請問一下，你們……"],["邱部長泰源：我們站在家長的角度……"],["陳委員培瑜：絕對是好事。"],["邱部長泰源：我們要全力以赴去做就對了。"],["陳委員培瑜：我的時間已經壓到年底，可是我說的年底，不是說年底才給我們進度，而是我們希望在年底可以看到這個網站上線，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們回去馬上就開始進行。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了，謝謝部長，我們會積極追蹤。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後跟部長分享……"],["邱部長泰源：我們隨時報告進度。"],["陳委員培瑜：延續對CRC的關懷，今年臺灣兒童權利公約施行法國內法化10週年，這件事情我相信部長過去在您的專業領域，可能對兒少不是這麼熟悉，但是我相信部長您上任之後，一定會積極推動更多兒少保護政策。甚至我們辦公室有更多的訴求，希望後續都有機會再跟衛福部討論，不管是因為兒少工作證，或者是相關體育教學現場對兒少的不友善這個部分，我們都希望接下來可以跟部長一起努力。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝指教，我們全力以赴。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，那就拜託部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們全力以赴。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們一起努力，謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員發言。接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.05971875,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.73784375,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.395968750000002,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.04971875,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.079093750000002,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.28909375,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.32284375,"end":22.407218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.42409375,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.44096875,"end":24.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.457843750000002,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.49159375,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.32659375,"end":27.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.27159375,"end":26.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.828468750000003,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.637843750000002,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.79784375,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.759718750000005,"end":35.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.13096875,"end":35.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.00534375,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.89846875,"end":69.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.87659375,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.89346875000001,"end":70.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.39971875,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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vision辨識的地方，我們覺得有點……做為阿宅，我是中研院廖所長的粉絲，他們做了一個YOLO，這是個非常、非常受歡迎的開發套件，結果5月26號已經出了最新版，這份6月5號的報告竟然說YOLO是v7。","我就直接講了，現在已經到第10代了，v9已經是全球轟動了，上個禮拜就出到第10代了，我們這份最新的報告說我們臺灣的中研院自己參與主導開發的YOLO是第7代，真的是有點自相矛盾，更不用講什麼參數比較啦、算力等，都沒有去確認所謂跨國訊息的同步跟比較，然後我們去瞭解各部會AI的成果，好像溝通協調回來也就是林林總總兩、三樣。我們真的很擔心，到底各部會有沒有接您的球啊？您發出去的訊息，各部會有沒有回應啊？","陳建仁院長曾經說未來要推AI行動計畫3.0，未來一定是由您來統籌規劃的，您投出去的球各個單位會接嗎？你作為投捕手、作為打擊者，都應該要瞻仰全世界各地的狀況，你有在看嗎？可不可以稍微回應一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員的指教。因為我才來第三個禮拜，其實還沒有時間去拜訪各部會，這真的是很遺憾，不過我會努力做這個事。"],["葛委員如鈞：有需要我們幫忙的地方，我們一起來協作好不好？謝謝您的誠意，這個既然……但是3個禮拜，AI已經要跳代了喔！我們每天在睡覺，AI都在倍速成長喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：瞭解。"],["葛委員如鈞：這是黃仁勳講的喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：瞭解、瞭解。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們不能把我們現在的時間當成以前的時間來看。","再來還有一點，我看了非常憂心，這一份報告很可能是我們臺灣接下來6個月，甚至是6年的發展方向，其中關於AI的行政命令在美國，或者是AI基本法在歐盟都非常重視利用AI打詐，以及禁止AI被運用於詐騙，請問這份報告裡面有沒有提到這個部分？我有沒有看錯？沒有啊！我有沒有看錯？主委，我有沒有看錯？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們數位發展部的報告裡面有。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以國科會不須要管這個事情？科研不需要來協作嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：需要、需要。"],["葛委員如鈞：是希望數發部的研發能力比國科會強嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會當然學界研發能力比較強，但是在各部會的分工上面，我們有一些工作是數發部……"],["葛委員如鈞：那我想未來我們的報告改一下，「與打詐無關的人工智慧（AI）推動現況與未來方向」，好不好？","再來，我們看2023年4月份OpenAI的執行長Sam Altman跟日本首相岸田文雄會面，會後Sam Altman表達對日本市場的重視，並且考慮跟日本合作的可能，結果今年（2024年）OpenAI在官網宣布，4月14日在日本設立亞洲第一個辦事處，我們可以看到我們的鄰居、好朋友日本對引進先進產業的企圖及決心，還有誠意。主委，你們呢？我就問一個問題，你們執政團隊有沒有跟Sam Altman提出過邀約，有嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有。我們再來看，上個星期黃仁勳去逛夜市，16%的GDP跟他吃晚餐，黃仁勳基於產業要求，人都來到臺灣了，政府有沒有動作？有沒有邀約相關產業的巨頭來聊？有沒有跟黃仁勳聯繫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們平常就有在聯繫啦！"],["葛委員如鈞：平常就有在聯繫……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：有開會？有討論我們與打詐無關的人工智慧發展現況嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這一部分沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們真的是有點擔心，覺得最近好像黃仁勳才是我們的科技政委，黃仁勳才是我們的AI總統，這真的是不應該！","我們接下來有沒有辦法期待跟科研有關的臺灣AI發展現況的AI圓桌會議，他邀到16%的GDP，我們能不能至少邀到1.6%？有沒有從國科會主委的角度，您也是政委，去建請賴總統是不是有一個這樣的圓桌會？結果變成黃仁勳在邀他們吃晚餐。有沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想您的角色真的非常重要，希望您可以做到專業的協助，讓我們的AI內閣真的是AI內閣。","我們再持續的來看……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們樂見產業發展，但是我們的政策規劃要考慮到的不是只有產業，還有我們所有社會的發展、文化的提升，這些都是我們考慮的範圍。"],["葛委員如鈞：社會的發展、文化的提升就是詐騙的防制。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，沒有錯。"],["葛委員如鈞：結果你的報告裡面又沒有，你剛剛推到數位部，然後我們要講科研，你又這樣，對不起……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在AI基本法會把人權保護的規範……"],["葛委員如鈞：對，AI基本法要有嘛！這一份也應該要有，好不好？所以不要漏掉了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：主權AI是我們剛剛提出來的，也很感謝，之前執政黨說算力即國力，接下來我們還要面臨到一個挑戰，電力即國力，這個今天我們暫時不討論，前面有很多委員都討論了。","但是我們來看，我們的算力是怎麼做的，我們的算力是數發部要打造算力池，我們國科會也有高速電腦網路中心，我們來看，數發部要買32片H100，大家去Google一下就可以看到了，一間Tesla公司的一個德州製造廠就要買5萬片的H100，它的一個社群網站要買30萬片的B200，請問相關的計畫接下來還有好幾年，後續有沒有要採購新的晶片？我們之前質詢已經講了，人家H100已經都量產了，你再來編預算、再來買H100，買到的時候人家已經是B200了，我們再去編B200的預算，買到的時候，人家已經不知道飛去哪裡了，我們有沒有提前規劃去購買下一個世代的算力來供業界應用，有嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在規劃的預算，等到我們真正採購的時候，當然一定會針對最新的設備……"],["葛委員如鈞：那現在有沒有在編列B（Blackwell）系列的預算？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們所編的預算不會……"],["葛委員如鈞：楊老師好像想幫忙解釋。不好意思！主席，因為這個訊息很重要。"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：我們國網中心在編列這邊的時候，都會考慮未來出來的計算機型號，所以我們先編列預算、匡列預算，到時候購買的時候當然是用最新的機器為主，委員不用擔心。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們剛剛其實是是非題，沒有關係！希望真的是以最新的來講，同時因為你去買這些東西真的緩不濟急，現在有一些雲端的服務，其實我自己很清楚學研、科研都在用，它的開發彈性更高，我們應該要結合企業、這些大的雲端算力服務，跟他們合作。","再來，對不起！再給我一點時間，因為這真的很重要。我們來看，主委，以前我們說世界各國想到晶圓代工就會想到臺灣，未來呢？主委，您覺得未來想到AI的什麼會直覺想到臺灣？到底是什麼？我們在這本裡沒有辦法看到。"],["吳主任委員誠文：除了晶圓製造，現在的雲端設備、超級電腦這些硬體設備大部分也都是臺灣做的。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以就是製造代工，從晶圓代工到製造代工？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前的產業狀況確定是這樣子，但是我們想要改變，也就是利用我們這些強勢的硬體製造業，協助我們應用產業的發展，以及前瞻AI的研究。"],["葛委員如鈞：軟硬整合，我想在座兩位老師都很清楚，Facebook Reality Labs（做影像辨識的實驗室）在臺灣，某個水果公司做最新產品的研發實驗室也在臺灣，我不能說太多，同時我們這個YOLO系統在全世界都非常受歡迎，我們的軟體也很強的，我們應該要一起來。","最後一個點，我們要作為產業和科研的粽子頭，因為您是主委也兼任政委，所以所有關於臺灣AI的什麼推動小組、行動計畫、參考指引，我上次已經朗讀過，我就不再朗讀了，還有Taiwan AICoE、應用專題中心、研究中心、A+、DIGI+、DIGI+2.0，我還是忍不住朗讀起來，讓您知道真的有多麼琳瑯滿目及豐富。","同時我也想要問，這裡面還有很多東西、細節是我們作為科研、作為學研、作為產業研發沒有辦法瞭解的，我4月份向國科會提出建議，我們到底有沒有要做一個Yellow page、一站式的，列出科研、學研等等的？我們有臺灣LLM，我們有TAIDE，我們還有機器狗、機器人，我們今天就不討論，您有回復接下來要成立一個一站式的查詢頁面、通查網，可不可以簡要說明一下，第一、這上面這些相關的計畫有沒有明列？第二、後續的規劃如何？第三，什麼時候會建置完成？有沒有時間表？"],["蕭組主任景燈：跟委員報告一下，目前我們相關跨部會的協調是透過智慧國家方案在推動，近期因為新的內閣成員上來，所以我們正在做兼派的簽呈，簽完之後，我們會開第一次的工作會議，這些事情就會放到工作會議裡面來討論，到時候才會有各部會相關資料的彙整，預計第三季那個網站的內容就會上去，以上。"],["葛委員如鈞：第三季，好，非常期待，拜託！一定要非常清楚，一定要讓國外的人士可以很清楚知道臺灣真的是AI的世界中心，真的是有非常強大的軟硬整合實力，我們作為粽子頭，我們一定要讓大家循線追查可以知道臺灣有多少優秀的粽子，可以來幫助AI產業持續發展，我們也期待國科會扮演非常重要的角色。","三個禮拜很長了，我們每天在睡覺的時候、我們每天在質詢的時候，AI都在變聰明，再拜託，我們再繼續努力！謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員，主委請回。"],["主席（張委員雅琳代）：現在有請林宜瑾委員質詢，有請主委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 (AI)推動現況與未來\n方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.869093750000001,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.695343750000003,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.68721875,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.38971875000001,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.68409375000002,"end":181.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.60596875000002,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.14159375,"end":227.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.50596875000002,"end":228.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.44659375,"end":236.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.31471875000003,"end":242.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.55846875,"end":285.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.47784375,"end":246.84471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.49721875,"end":257.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.55159375,"end":287.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.58096875,"end":288.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.04909375,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.11971875,"end":296.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.94659375000003,"end":297.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.82409375000003,"end":298.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.87409375000004,"end":301.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.90784375000004,"end":310.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.88971875000004,"end":343.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.02784375000005,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.99284375,"end":380.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.56221875,"end":386.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.68346875000003,"end":387.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.73409375,"end":387.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.90284375000005,"end":388.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.44284375,"end":389.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.52284375000005,"end":417.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.94034375,"end":418.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":420.67409375000005,"end":420.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.69096875,"end":421.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.96909375,"end":432.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.14909375,"end":444.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.70409375,"end":449.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.12534375,"end":449.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.95221875000004,"end":455.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.87534375,"end":463.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.04409375,"end":456.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.64284375000005,"end":491.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":463.57034375,"end":463.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.24096875000004,"end":534.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.3059687500001,"end":542.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.3428437499999,"end":545.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.63346875,"end":545.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.65034375,"end":545.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.73471875,"end":547.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.1015937500001,"end":554.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":547.2197187500001,"end":548.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":551.4722187500001,"end":551.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.03284375,"end":569.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.0703437500001,"end":558.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.7153437500001,"end":562.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.93346875,"end":606.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.61971875,"end":613.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":614.26409375,"end":614.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.7365937500001,"end":615.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.4284687500001,"end":633.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.8672187500001,"end":615.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.95159375,"end":616.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.0290937500001,"end":633.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":633.06284375,"end":633.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.07971875,"end":725.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.4697187500001,"end":650.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.4028437500001,"end":726.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.3347187500001,"end":730.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.1953437500001,"end":730.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.97159375,"end":731.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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petaflops2025超越100 petaflops2028年完成200 petaflops"},{"start":93.732,"end":119.151,"text":"老實說,隨便Google一下連GDP都不用問這個一比較起來是真的會流眼淚的我們到2024年才16現在印度的已經是410我還查過了他們的國民生產毛額或者是總體的這個所謂的全部累計的GDP我們也頂多就是四分之一啦七分之一啦除一下我覺得這個數字也真的有點可憐"},{"start":120.772,"end":131.123,"text":"更不用講現在國外已經開始在用exaflops來做單位了我們這樣子真的是算力非常堪憂我想報告的第13頁開始總算未來佈局了但覺得有點單薄"},{"start":134.482,"end":139.567,"text":"我們看到前面說我們要推動AI創新看到的案例只有三個例子當然有一個農業我覺得是不錯但提到這個所謂Computer Vision辨識的地方我們覺得有點作為阿宅因為我是那個中研院廖所長的粉絲他們做了一個這個YOLO這個非常非常受歡迎的這個開發套件"},{"start":159.106,"end":179.839,"text":"結果呢5月26號已經出了最新版這一份6月5號的報告竟然說YOLO是V7啦我就直接講啦現在已經第10代了V9已經是全球轟動了這個上個禮拜是出到第10代了我們這份最新的報告說我們台灣的中研院自己參與主導開發的YOLO是第7代"},{"start":183.206,"end":199.351,"text":"真的是有點志強矛盾更不用講啦說什麼參數比較啦算力都沒有去缺這個所謂的跨國的訊息的同步跟比較然後呢我們這去了解各部會AI的成果好像溝通協調回來也就零零總總兩三樣"},{"start":201.152,"end":215.082,"text":"我們真的很擔心到底各部會有沒有接您的球啊您發出去的這個訊息各部會有沒有回應啊陳建仁院長曾經說未來要推AI行動計畫3.0未來一定是由您來統籌規劃您投出去的球各個單位會接嗎你作為這個投撲手作為這個打擊者也好都應該是瞻仰這個全世界各地的狀況你有在看嗎各位稍微回應一下"},{"start":230.003,"end":247.039,"text":"謝謝委員的指教因為我這個才第三個禮拜其實還沒有時間去拜訪各部會這真的是很遺憾不過我會努力做這個事有需要我們幫忙的地方我們一起來協作好不好謝謝您的誠意"},{"start":249.361,"end":272.395,"text":"三個禮拜AI已經要跳帶囉我們每天在睡覺AI都在倍速成長喔黃仁勳講的喔所以我們不能把我們現在的時間當成以前的時間來看再來還有一點我看了非常憂心這一份報告很可能是我們接下來台灣6個月甚至是6年的發展方向其中關於AI的行政命令在美國"},{"start":273.095,"end":285.505,"text":"或者是AI基本法在歐盟都非常重視利用AI打詐以及禁止AI被運用於詐騙請問這份報告裡面有沒有提到這個部分我有沒有看錯沒有啊我有沒有看錯"},{"start":289.11,"end":315.377,"text":"主委 我有沒有看錯我們數位發展部的報告裡面有所以國科會不需要管這個事情科研不需要來協作嗎所以我們希望速發部的研發能力比國科會強嗎國科會當然學界研發能力比較強但是我們在各部位的分工上面我們有一些工作是速發部那我想未來我們報告改一下與打詐無關的人工智慧推動現況與未來方向好不好"},{"start":316.917,"end":332.364,"text":"再來我們看2023年4月份OpenAI執行長Sam Altman跟日本首相岸田文雄會面會後Sam Altman表達對日本市場的重視並且考慮跟日本合作的可能結果呢?"},{"start":332.364,"end":333.665,"text":"結果呢?今年的2024年是要更正嗎?"},{"start":333.665,"end":334.145,"text":"時間暫停一下這邊有沒有?"},{"start":334.145,"end":334.685,"text":"我剛剛講錯了是不是?"},{"start":334.685,"end":335.525,"text":"現在要更正可以喔?"},{"start":335.525,"end":335.665,"text":"沒有嗎?"},{"start":335.665,"end":336.106,"text":"OK那我們繼續喔"},{"start":344.093,"end":362.635,"text":"跟日本合作的可能 OpenAI 在官網宣布4月14日在日本設立亞洲第一個辦事處我們可以看到日本我們的鄰居日本好朋友對引進先進產業的企圖跟決心還有誠意主委那你們呢我就問一個問題你們執政團隊有沒有跟Sam Altman提出過邀約"},{"start":364.697,"end":385.895,"text":"我們再來看上個星期黃仁勳去逛夜市16%的GDP跟他吃晚餐黃仁勳基於產業要求人都來到台灣了政府有沒有動作有沒有邀約相關產業的巨頭來聊有沒有跟黃仁勳聯繫我們平常就有在聯繫平常就有在聯繫有開會有討論我們的與打炸無關的人工智慧發展現況嗎"},{"start":389.626,"end":417.165,"text":"我們真的是有點擔心覺得最近好像黃仁勳才是我們的科技政委黃仁勳才是我們的AI的總統這真的是不應該那我們接下來有沒有辦法期待有沒有跟科研有關的台灣的AI發展現況的AI原作會議他16%GDP我們能不能至少要到1.6%有沒有從國會主委這裡的角度您也是政委去建起賴總統是不是有一個這樣的原作會議結果變成黃仁勳在吃晚餐"},{"start":418.006,"end":418.367,"text":"有沒有?目前沒有。"},{"start":423.098,"end":447.534,"text":"希望我想您的角色真的非常重要希望您可以做到專業的協助讓我們的AI內閣真的是AI內閣那我們再來持續的來看我們樂見產業發展但是我們的規劃政策規劃要考慮到不是只有產業還有我們的所有的這個社會的發展文化的提升這些都是我們考慮的社會的發展文化的提升就是詐騙的防治"},{"start":449.295,"end":449.936,"text":"主權AI是我們剛剛提出來的"},{"start":466.311,"end":487.202,"text":"然後呢之前也很感謝啦我們之前執政黨說算力及國力接下來我們還要面臨到一個挑戰電力及國力這個今天我們暫時不討論前面有很多委員都討論了但是我們來看我們的算力是怎麼做的呢我們的算力是速發部要打造算力池我們國科會也有高速電腦網路中心啦我們來看速發部要買什麼32片H100"},{"start":492.318,"end":506.069,"text":"我是真的齁大家去google一下就可以看到了齁一間Tesla公司的一個工廠德州的製造廠就要買5萬片的H100他的一個社群網站要買30萬片的B200請問"},{"start":509.071,"end":517.813,"text":"相關的計畫接下來還有好幾年後續有沒有要採購新的晶片我們之前質詢已經講了人家H100已經都量產了你再來買H100再來訂預算買到的時候人家已經是B200了我們現在再去編B200預算買到的時候人家已經不知道飛去哪裡了我們有沒有提前規劃提前規劃去購買下一個世代的算力來供業界運用有嗎"},{"start":535.339,"end":554.014,"text":"我們現在規劃的預算等到我們真正採購的時候一定當然會要針對最新的的那個設備那現在有沒有在編列B系列的預算?我們所編的預算那個楊老師好像有嗎?好像想幫忙解釋啊不好意思那個主席讓我因為他這個訊息很重要"},{"start":555.094,"end":581.27,"text":"我們國防中心在編列這邊的時候都會考慮未來新出來的那個計算機的那個型號啦是這樣子所以就是說我們先編列預算然後框預算到時候購買的時候但是用最新的機器的為主這個委員不用擔心好我們剛剛其實是非一體啦沒有關係希望真的是以最新的來講同時因為你去買這些東西真的緩不濟急現在有一些雲端的服務其實我自己很清楚啦"},{"start":581.57,"end":585.432,"text":"主委您覺得到底以前我們說世界各國想到晶圓代工想到台灣那未來呢?主委您覺得未來想到AI的什麼會直覺想到台灣到底是什麼?我們在這本裡沒有辦法看到"},{"start":606.656,"end":635.798,"text":"除了晶圓製造我們現在所有的雲端設備超級電腦這些硬體的設備大部分也都是台灣做的所以就是製造代工從晶圓代工到製造代工目前確定是這樣子目前的產業狀況但是我們想要改變也就是說利用這些強勢的我們的硬體的製造業能夠協助我們的應用產業的發展以及前瞻的AI的研究軟硬整合我想在座兩位老師都很清楚"},{"start":636.539,"end":646.549,"text":"Facebook Reality Lab做影像辨識的實驗室在台灣某個水果公司的做那個最新產品我不能說太多研發實驗室也在台灣同時呢我們這個YOLO的這個系統在全世界都非常受歡迎我們軟體很強的我們應該要一起來最後最後一個點我們要作為產業跟科研的種子頭"},{"start":660.282,"end":680.962,"text":"因為您是主委也兼任政委所以所有關於台灣AI的推動小組、行動計畫、參考指引我上次已經朗讀過我就不再朗讀了還有台灣AICOE、應用專題中心、研究中心、A家、DigitalPlus、DigitalPlus 2.0我還是忍不住朗讀起來讓您知道真的有多麼琳瑯滿目跟豐富"},{"start":683.164,"end":697.541,"text":"同時我也想要問這裡面還有很多東西細節是我們作為科研作為學研作為產業研發是沒有辦法了解的我4月份向各位提出建議到底有沒有要做我們一個Yellow Page一站式的"},{"start":697.981,"end":726.696,"text":"列出科研學研我們有台灣LOM我們有台德我們還有這個機器狗這個機器人我們今天就不討論但是呢我們到底這個接下來您有回覆啦說要成立一個一站式的查詢頁面通查網可不可以請一下簡要說明啦說明一下第一這上面有沒有相關的這些計畫會名列第二後續的規劃如何第三什麼時候會建置完成"},{"start":729.372,"end":749.469,"text":"有沒有時間表這是誰寫的請他報告一下專業分工說明一下跟委員報告一下我們目前相關的跨部位的協調透過智慧國家方案在推動我們近期因為新的內閣的成員上來我們正在做那個"},{"start":755.314,"end":755.354,"text":"第3季．"},{"start":774.711,"end":795.116,"text":"一定要非常清楚一定要讓國外的人士可以很清楚知道台灣真的是AI的世界的中心真的是有非常強大的軟硬整合的實力我們作為這個粽子頭我們一定要讓大家尋線追查可以知道台灣有多少優秀的粽子可以來幫助AI產業持續發展我們也期待國會這邊扮演到非常重要的角色三個禮拜"},{"start":800.677,"end":800.697,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153602","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c984c668510ecd8d104a6cabf0dc0d1a8b711da973c502cee625c9373198f39be1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:08:29 - 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Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T11:07:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:15:22+08:00","duration":449,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":868,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時7分）感謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["丁委員學忠：部長好。"],["劉部長世芳：丁委員你好。"],["丁委員學忠：今天我們要審查詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案，這是我們行政院的優先法案。首先，打詐、防詐是大家的共識，本席非常支持更有效率的打擊詐騙集團，現在打詐的效率，目前有很大的民怨，執行效率比較不彰，需要有更好的方式，現在行政院在520之前就已經把這個專法送到我們立法院，整個法案的方向是加強打詐，這個方向相信我們所有委員大家都非常支持，在這裡要請部長說明一下，為何這個專法需要儘快通過，可以馬上得到更好的效率來抓到詐騙集團？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝丁委員的關心，我相信外面很多民意調查也是在反映，現在民怨最大的就是在這些詐欺案件，這些詐欺案件這麼多，可以說「上港」、「下港」還是偏鄉地區，老人也好、小孩也好，還是說有錢人或是窮人，大家都有受到這種詐欺，包括在網路上，或是包括老人家有時候接到這種隨便打電話過來，然後就被騙了，因為我們臺灣是一個很良善的社會，所以對方說的話都會相信，小至只有詐欺幾百元，大至幾百萬、幾千萬都有，所以政府必須要有這個決心，以前打詐推出很多國家隊的這個法案，是因為我們的授權不足，也就是說，我們各個部會在做行政上面的協調的時候，已經窮盡所能，但是發現到如果立法授權不足，包括未來不管從究源、從金管會、通傳會，還有數位部很多防止的預防面，或者是需要返還被害人的金額等等，如果法律不充足，隨便叫警察朋友，或是叫很多人說我要殺掉你、要消掉、要搞掉，那是違反我們臺灣法治社會裡面應該有的條件。所以這次我們的前政務委員羅秉成，他是非常好的法律專家，他在520之前就已經完成新詐欺四法，詐欺四法在我們內政委員會裡面是以詐欺危害防制條例為主，在司法及法制委員會就是洗錢防制法、科偵法及通保法，這四項要連在一起，這樣才可以有效地在每一個行政部門、每一個部會大家互相配合，應該就可以有效降低我們此時此刻臺灣社會受到詐欺危害防制而產生的社會治安困擾。"],["丁委員學忠：你說了3分鐘。"],["劉部長世芳：不好意思、不好意思，委員，你可以制止我沒有關係。"],["丁委員學忠：沒關係，這個草案整個第三節都有要求網路廣告業者有義務配合詐騙案的調查。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["丁委員學忠：草案裡面也列出網路廣告平臺業者要有法律代表人，法律代表人好像是法律新創的一個名詞，現行法律中有這個名詞嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：應該不是新創名詞，我請主管機關向你解釋一下。"],["呂署長正華：謝謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：簡單就好。"],["呂署長正華：歐盟有所謂的legal representative，因為如果要用法律代理人，有的法有，但這是稱為法律代表，因為國際作法要一致，所以我們參考歐盟的作法，叫做legal representative，中文就是以「法律代表」來處理，以上報告。謝謝！"],["丁委員學忠：好，現在很多網路平臺業者，市場規模最大的都是外國公司，資料有可能都是在國外資料庫裡面，這個草案有辦法要求這些國際公司企業跟我們配合？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，一方面我們是主動跟這些跨國網路平臺業者溝通、勸說；另外一方面就是我們希望這個法律通過，當這些跨國網路廣告平臺不願意合作的時候，我們就有一些法源去要求他，甚至於對他們處罰。"],["丁委員學忠：有法源可以對外國公司處罰？"],["林次長宜敬：對。"],["丁委員學忠：關掉它的網路系統？"],["林次長宜敬：基本上，這個就是為什麼我們希望它們在臺灣設立法律代表的原因，如果不願意設立法律代表的話，我們最後的手段就是可以幫它降速，降速以後它還是不願意配合的話，那時候我們可以對它們進行封網的行動。"],["丁委員學忠：好，一定相信你們的執行能力。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["丁委員學忠：不好意思，主席，再給我一點時間。","因為這部法案至少有11個條文授權主管機關在法案通過之後另訂辦法，裡面包含了內政部、金管會、數位部及經濟部，這些法律授權規定等到法通過之後訂定規範執行，就像剛才說的，會讓人擔心這些行政機關濫權，我們要怎麼確定不會讓有心人濫用這些權力拿去做其他的用途？就是會有一些個資的問題。如果發生像之前民進黨政策會執行長疑似濫用電信公司的個人資訊問題，這個部分要怎麼處理？如果之前需要調一些個資出來，會被別人拿去濫用嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不會。針對這件事情，星期一的時候我們已經在交通委員會報告過了，3家電信公司都保證他們沒有洩漏個資，現在的問題就是要怎麼加強，因為個資是沒有洩漏，但是去識別化後這些資料是怎麼保存、怎麼運用的，關於這部分，我們會加強要求，但是這跟個人個資沒有關係。"],["丁委員學忠：不要事情說出來之後，又變成是用膝蓋想出來的，這太離譜了！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員放心，後續我們會再處理。"],["丁委員學忠：這個對我們有智慧的人是一大侮辱。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，瞭解。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝部長，辛苦你們了，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時15分）","繼續開會（11時23分）"],["主席：各位同仁，我們現在繼續開會，下一個請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.03096875,"end":2.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.16909375,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.35471875,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.35409375,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.324093750000003,"end":25.782218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.085968750000003,"end":38.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.775968750000004,"end":65.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.64096875,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.20159375,"end":89.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.06096875,"end":78.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.82284375,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.72034375000001,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.83846875,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.14534375,"end":171.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.82284375,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.66659375,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.59846875000002,"end":148.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.35784375,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.28034375000001,"end":159.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.31409375,"end":159.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.56721875000002,"end":159.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.46409375000002,"end":190.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":189.70596875,"end":190.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":190.46534375000002,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.28346875000003,"end":193.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.24534375000002,"end":196.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":196.45596875,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":214.36034375000003,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.40096875,"end":228.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.99096875,"end":251.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":229.21034375000002,"end":231.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.59346875000003,"end":234.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.71159375000002,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.74534375000002,"end":234.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.81284375,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.82971875,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.96471875,"end":234.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.39846875,"end":240.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":243.65534375000001,"end":244.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":248.31284375,"end":248.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.33784375000002,"end":250.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.33346875,"end":255.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":255.72096875000003,"end":268.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.08159375,"end":270.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.02659375,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":271.44846875,"end":271.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.91659375,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":291.12471875,"end":295.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.97221875,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":298.14471875000004,"end":299.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":300.89534375,"end":301.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.50284375,"end":301.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.11721875,"end":313.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.24784375,"end":313.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.51784375,"end":340.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.83846875,"end":343.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":343.74096875000004,"end":351.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":351.85784375000003,"end":368.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":368.49659375000005,"end":373.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":373.71096875,"end":380.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.96284375000005,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.01721875000004,"end":386.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.80596875000003,"end":387.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":390.04596875000004,"end":390.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":390.18096875000003,"end":395.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.74971875,"end":396.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":396.35721875,"end":398.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.95596875,"end":399.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":399.20909375,"end":399.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":399.25971875000005,"end":399.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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案 、 草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案 、草案"},{"start":66.197,"end":68.58,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":89.878,"end":99.523,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":108.608,"end":109.269,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":123.598,"end":131.741,"text":"立法裡面的授權不足包括說我們未來在不管從救援裡面從金管會、通傳會還有數位部很多防止的預防面或者是需要把這個所謂的這個返還這個被害人的這些金額啊等等這些你若犯了不充足你現在叫警察朋友或是叫很多人說我要把你抬掉、要把你燒掉、要把你沖掉那是違反我們台灣這個法制社會裡面應該有的條件"},{"start":149.489,"end":153.533,"text":"這次前政務委員羅秉成是非常好的法律專家,他在我們歐里空陣前已經完成新《詐欺事法》。在《詐欺事法》內,在我們內政委員會是以《詐欺危害防制條例》為主。在《司法法制委員會》就是《洗錢防治法》、"},{"start":171.511,"end":179.598,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案：一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九"},{"start":194.45,"end":200.876,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":214.437,"end":222.791,"text":"要有法律代表人。第二,法律代表人哪像是法律新創的一個名詞。當然現行法律中剛有這個名詞。"},{"start":224.628,"end":251.122,"text":"應該不是新創名詞,我請主管機關介紹一下。謝謝委員,這是參考歐盟的legal representative,因為你要用法律代理人或有的法務,但是這個叫做法律代表。法律代表因為國際的做法要一致,所以我們參考歐盟的做法叫做legal representative,國際的法律代表來做出力。報告,謝謝。"},{"start":252.442,"end":257.748,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":271.198,"end":289.853,"text":"報告委員,這個一方面我們是主動跟這些跨國網路平台業者做溝通然後勸說,那另一方面就是我們希望這個法律的通過當這些跨國網路廣告平台如果他們不願意合作的話我們有一些法源去要求他甚至於是對他們處罰"},{"start":291.754,"end":306.366,"text":"有法人對外國公司可以處罰他們?對,基本上這個就是為什麼我們希望他在台灣設立法律代表的原因。那如果他不願意設立法律代表的話,那我們就是最後的手段就是可以幫他降訴。"},{"start":307.126,"end":322.711,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":329.733,"end":350.736,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":351.957,"end":366.065,"text":"沒有這個濫權,但要如何確定會讓有心的人濫用這些權利,拿去做法判的用途,一些個資的問題。中國如果發生像我們之前我們的民進黨政策會執行長,於是濫用電信公司的個人資訊問題,這就過分我們要如何處理。"},{"start":382.51,"end":383.633,"text":"黃 黃竹敏 竹敏 啊 電信"},{"start":390.12,"end":398.403,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":419.65,"end":439.706,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"}]}},{"id":"153600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98d750081ddd24e2e4155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62ed139ae0a6a6f6e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:57:25 - 11:07:48","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:57:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T11:07:48+08:00","duration":623,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":847,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時57分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。是不是有請部長？"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長好。部長，今天我們在討論的就是有關於詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，我覺得這非常的重要，現在全臺灣國人都認為詐騙的案件層出不窮，不只是金額增加，而且對這些有詐騙犯行的人所規定的刑責好像比較低，今天很多的委員都有提出來，可是本席現在要討論的是關於資安的問題，這是現在我們內政委員會一個比較重要、大家在關心的點，就是數位身分證，我們現在有一個專案調閱小組在做查核的動作。我先跟部長報告，109年10月在時任行政院長的賴清德主政之下，行政院通過要換發數位身分證，也就是New eID，可是在時隔3個月以後，在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放，請問部長知道數位身分證當時停止、暫緩啟動的原因嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告張委員，在當時停止的時候，其實我也是立法委員，在那時候4個黨都同意，停止最主要的原因就是我們數位身分證的資安或是個資在法律上面的法令不足的關係，如果貿然就推動的話，恐怕會造成譬如說身分證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題，那會造成更大的詐騙的來源。"],["張委員智倫：好，非常感謝部長，因為部長當時也是非常的專業，所以我相信部長在這個部分應該是非常的用心。本席要跟部長報告，其實數位身分證當時的概念就是因為要維護資安，然後讓人民的數位身分資料可以再進一步，數位身分證當時的用意很單純，只是要把我們現在一般人用的身分證加上自然人憑證，把它併在一起，其實它是用意良善的。我想要請教部長，當時在數位身分證剛開始啟用的時候，先在3個地方試辦，就是新北、澎湖以及新竹市，可是後來這3個地區都反對。部長，我認為中央在做數位身分證的試辦時溝通不足，你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任？"],["劉部長世芳：我想跟委員報告一下，我剛剛有提到，在立法院是每個黨、每個黨團都同意要暫緩，3個縣市政府當時同意試辦，後來沒有試辦，主要的原因在於，我想張委員非常知道，我們的身分證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入、移出、遷入、遷出，所以它沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府，也就是說，如果現在是新竹市試辦，但是我是新竹縣的人，新竹縣還是用紙本身分證，新竹市是用數位身分證，這樣會產生在民政系統上面，或是戶政系統，或是相關其他身分證用的時候很大的困擾，所以用這樣試辦的方式，其實不是一個太好的試辦措施，所以後來也就停止不再試辦。"],["張委員智倫：我先請教部長，你是支持數位身分證繼續重啟、繼續來做嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想不能完全這樣講，到目前為止，我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠，譬如說個資，還有包括數位發展部，因為它是一個新興的部會，它相關的譬如說T-Road也好，或者是機構跟機構之間，包括公務機關，是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以？如果以往是採取行政授權的話，法令是不足的，因為如果發生狀況，誰要負責？不可能說公務員記個過就好了，這反而會造成受害的機會比較大。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。我個人認為我們數位身分證（eID）的部分，第一個，一定要維護資安的安全。"],["劉部長世芳：完全同意。"],["張委員智倫：所以我當時有跟部長報告，第一個，我認為是溝通不足，當然還有資安的問題，整個預算總經費是48億，而且現在依照我們許宇甄委員跟審計部的資料，已經花了14億，這都是人民的納稅錢，而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分，我最不能接受的就是行政院當時有一個院會──3736次院會，當時最主要說要停止數位身分證的原因是兩個，第一個就是資安的問題，可是它特別提到因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個eID系統，所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮，所以請問部長，這個院會作出認為大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何？第二個是有關於相關法令的配套，是否已經有開始做修法的動作？如果都沒有、還沒有、有些有修、有些還沒修，就針對一些我們比較重視的，比如說個人資料保護法，還有戶籍法及資通安全管理法，這些部分我們行政院到底有沒有要來修？不然的話，這些東西、這個數位身分證一定會石沉大海，請部長是不是……"],["劉部長世芳：我覺得需要從長計議，因為委員所提到的3個法律分別散在不同部會，目前3個不同部會可能都還沒有共識，如果我們內部的部會沒有共識就貿然啟動的話，我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大，也就是說，我們必須在審慎評估之後才能做決定。"],["張委員智倫：好，最後因為時間的關係，我想要播一段影片給部長看，因為我們現在在數位身分證調查小組裡面，我們希望，第一個，要重視我們內政委員會所有委員大家一個調閱的權力，可是我發現我們在調閱的時候，我覺得本委會的委員非常可憐，我們來看一下，我發現很多的資料不透明、不明確，從第一頁到最後一頁，全部都反黑，請部長看一下。","我想我們都希望大家的數位身分證可以更讓民眾知道，推行數位身分證，政府從102年開始，是一個立意良善，只要資安能夠維護，大家能夠去瞭解，可以大家一起來幫政府去做一個說明的動作，我們的調閱小組，現在召委也非常的重視，想不到給調閱小組的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁，完全都是反黑的，我私下有跟我們辛苦的內政部戶政司的同仁聊到，他說，他們在反黑這些資料的時候，他們都覺得非常的無言啦！蔣萬安市長當時在調疫苗資料的時候，只有隱藏部分的資料，現在是從第一頁到最後一頁，全部都反黑。再開另外一個檔案，另外一個檔案有嗎？結果後來內部的同仁跟我講，全部反黑好像就是刻意不要讓我們立法委員去看，之後我們所有行政官員太累了，後來有一本，我這邊手上有資料，全部就只印目錄，所以請問部長，你能接受這樣的調閱小組嗎？這樣的調閱小組，你們內政部提供給調閱小組的資料，從第一頁到最後一頁全部反黑，不僅浪費紙，而且一點意義都沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，內政部所提供的資料，大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法，我們都依照規定來辦理。"],["張委員智倫：部長，其實我有跟你們內部討論了，所以我希望這個調閱小組……而且我想我們召委、主席，大家都非常重視啦！我相信這是史無前例，第一次從第一頁到最後一頁，一千多頁全部都反黑，所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況？最後還是拜託，關於數位身分證，第一個，未來還有沒有大陸這個資安的疑慮？你們要去做一個解釋的動作，不然數位身分證是完全無法重啟。第二個就是我們相關的法令配套，從當時109年的時候，當時的行政院長、現在的總統賴清德通過了以後，現在已經是113年了，這幾年內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法令？如果沒有的話，數位身分證要如何重啟？第三個，請部長協助，要重視我們內政委員會調查委員會職權行使的一個權力，不能說從第一頁到最後一頁，全部都反黑，第一個是浪費紙，而且內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言，到最後直接就只有印目錄，我覺得這樣是非常沒有意義的，而且我覺得國人也沒辦法接受，所以請部長協助，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，剛剛委員有特別提到要不要重啟新式身分證的部分，國安疑慮確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾，它必須修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的，不只3個法，還有其他的相關措施，因為國安疑慮真的是非常的大。第二個，還是一樣，我剛剛有特別提到，內政委員會的調閱小組所要提供的資料，站在內政部的立場，就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資料保護法的規定來辦理。"],["張委員智倫：部長，其實我沒有要你回答這一塊，所以你認同他從第一頁到最後一頁、一千多頁都是反黑嗎？如果你當委員的時候，你看到這樣的資料，你能同意嗎？所以部長，我沒有要你回答，可是這一點我希望你可以好好去改善啦！因為這樣子我相信我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦！而且你之前也是當過立法委員，我希望大家應該互相尊重，好不好？部長，這部分再拜託你，我們希望讓內政委員會的委員能有一個更公開、透明，大家去瞭解，而且一起來推動政府最重視的資安問題，也跟今天的主題──打詐、防詐騙一樣是非常重要，好嗎？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，下一位是丁學忠委員，丁學忠委員質詢完就休息5分鐘，剛才已經宣布了，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.30096875,"end":4.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.556593750000001,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.653468750000002,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":30.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.86159375,"end":54.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.04346875,"end":55.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.30909375,"end":77.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.57159375,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.15721875,"end":90.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.86909375,"end":102.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.65659375000001,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.36096875000001,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.58034375000001,"end":102.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.68159375,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.82971875,"end":201.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.19346875000002,"end":209.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.51721875,"end":239.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.33284375000002,"end":229.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.51721875,"end":237.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.91346875000002,"end":282.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.73096875000002,"end":246.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.26534375,"end":316.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.96471875000003,"end":322.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.42784375,"end":335.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.34971875,"end":356.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.37596875,"end":365.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.64471875000004,"end":367.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.47971875,"end":369.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.93471875,"end":399.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.74909375000004,"end":409.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.82346875,"end":414.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.46409375,"end":417.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.00784375,"end":418.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.05846875000003,"end":419.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.45909375,"end":421.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.64846875,"end":423.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.76221875000005,"end":440.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.80596875000003,"end":443.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.19784375,"end":452.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.36534375,"end":459.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.71846875000006,"end":501.99471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.45034375000006,"end":503.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.90159375,"end":523.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.52284375,"end":530.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.30659375,"end":541.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.51159375,"end":546.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.76409375,"end":561.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.37784375,"end":573.8147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.0047187499999,"end":580.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.08784375,"end":584.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.5303437499999,"end":613.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.70721875,"end":614.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.55096875,"end":614.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.9053437499999,"end":616.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.36909375,"end":623.96721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.289,"end":4.616,"text":"好,謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員,大家早。是邀請部長。"},{"start":11.764,"end":29.458,"text":"政委員吾好部長吾好部長今天我們在討論的就是有關於詐欺犯罪的這個遇害防治法我覺得這非常重要那所以我覺得現在全台灣國人都認為這個詐騙的案件層數不窮不只是金額增加而且是說這些詐騙的人"},{"start":30.919,"end":41.404,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":56.411,"end":72.248,"text":"在值得這個行政院長賴清德的主政之下,行政院通過這個換發數位身份證,就是NEID,可是在時隔3個月以後,在110年由蘇貞昌院長宣布暫緩發放。請問部長你知道說這個數位身份證當時這個停止暫緩啟動的原因嗎?"},{"start":78.014,"end":98.392,"text":"報告張委員當時停止的時候其實我也是立法委員大概那個時候的四個黨都同意最主要的原因就是我們數位身份證在資安或是個資還有法律上面的法令不足的關係如果貿然就推動的話恐怕會造成譬如說身份證裡面的個資外洩或是資安的問題會造成更大的詐騙的來源"},{"start":102.796,"end":120.983,"text":"非常感謝部長,因為部長當時也是非常的專業,所以我相信部長在這一部分應該是非常的用心。那本席要跟部長報告就是說,其實數位身份證當時的概念就是因為要維護治安,然後要人民的這個數位的這個身份資料可以再進一步。"},{"start":121.403,"end":141.82,"text":"但數位身份證當時的用意很單純只是要把身份證我們現在一般人用的身份證加上自然能憑證把它併在一起其實它是用意良善的那我想要請教部長的是說當時在這個數位身份證剛開始啟用的時候它有先有三個地方先做市營運是新北澎湖以及是新竹市可是後來這三個地區都反對"},{"start":143.641,"end":147.851,"text":"所以部長我認為這邊是在中央在做這個輸入身分證的這個試營運的時候溝通的不足你認為這個部分誰應該承擔責任?"},{"start":154.148,"end":178.605,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我剛有提到了在立法院是每個黨每個黨團都同意要暫緩那三個縣市政府當時要同意事辦那後來沒有事辦我想主要的原因在於說我想張委員非常知道我們身份證是採取你在什麼地方都可以移入移出遷入遷出所以他沒有辦法受限在某一個縣市政府"},{"start":182.108,"end":201.066,"text":"新竹市用紙本身份證,新竹市用數位身份證,這樣會產生在民政系統上或是戶政系統或是相關的其他身份證用的時候很大的困擾,所以用這樣示範的方式其實不是一個太好的示範的措施,所以後來也就停止不再示範。"},{"start":202.233,"end":228.591,"text":"所以我先請教部長,所以部長你是支持這個數位身份證繼續重啟,繼續來做嗎?我想不能完全這樣講,目前為止我認為它的法源跟法令的基礎還是不夠,譬如說個資,還有包括數位發展部,因為它是一個新興的部會,它相關的這個譬如說TRO也好,或者是在機構跟機構之間,是不是也必須要,包括公務機關,是不是也必須要有一個授權才可以。"},{"start":229.251,"end":249.164,"text":"以往是採取行政授權的話法令是不足的因為如果發生狀況誰要負責你不能說公務員記個過就好了這個會反而造成受害的機會比較大所以我個人認為就是我們的數位身份證EID的部分第一個一定要維護資安的安全所以我當時跟部長報告第一個我認為就是溝通的不足"},{"start":249.784,"end":275.531,"text":"那當然還有治安的問題那整個預算其實總經費是48億而且現在依照我們徐宇貞委員跟審計部的這個資料已經花了14億這都是人民的納稅錢而且每年還要再花6,375萬做維護的部分所以我這不能接受就是行政院當時有一個這個院會3736院會他當時最主要說要停止輸的身份證原因是兩個"},{"start":276.471,"end":291.383,"text":"第一個就是說資安的問題可是他特別提到的是因為大陸會攻擊我們的這個EID系統所以就變成資安的問題會有疑慮所以請部長問說到底這個院會做出任何大陸會造成我們資安問題的原因是為何第二個"},{"start":291.883,"end":315.764,"text":"是有關於相當相關的法律的配套是否已經有已經有開始做修法的這個動作如果都沒有還沒有有些有修有些還沒修就針對一些我們比較重視的比如說個人資料保護法還有戶籍法及這個資通安全管理法這些部分到底我們行政院有沒有要來修不然的話這些東西有這個數位身份證一定會石沉大海請部長是不是"},{"start":316.244,"end":335.522,"text":"我覺得需要從長計議因為委員所提到的三個法律分別擅在不同的部會目前可能三個不同的部會都還沒有共識如果我們內部的部會沒有共識的話貿然就啟動我想後面的資安問題還是相當的大也就是說我們必須要在審慎的評估之後才能做決定"},{"start":336.377,"end":355.645,"text":"好,最後是時間的關係,我想要播一段影片給部長看。因為我們現在在數位身份證調查小組裡面,我們希望說第一個要重視我們內政委員會所有的委員,大家一個這個調閱的權利啦。可是我發現這個我們在調閱的時候,我覺得我們本委會的委員非常的可憐。"},{"start":357.561,"end":369.43,"text":"來我們看一下我發現就是說很多的資料不透明、不明確從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑請部長看一下"},{"start":372.984,"end":399.115,"text":"我想說我們都希望大家的數位身份證可以更讓民眾知道說推行數位身份證從政府102年開始是一個利益良善只要資安能夠維護那大家能夠去了解可以大家一起來幫政府來去做一個說明的動作想不到我們調閱小組現在招委也非常的重視調閱小組裡面給的資料居然從第一頁到最後一頁完全都是反黑的"},{"start":399.835,"end":420.954,"text":"那我私下有跟我們辛苦的這個內政部副縣市的同仁聊到他說他們在這個反黑這些資料的時候他們都覺得非常的無言啊這個比我相信蔣安安市長當時在調這個疫苗的時候只有隱藏部分的資料現在是從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑結果我再開另外一個檔案"},{"start":422.674,"end":443.191,"text":"有另外答案有嗎?結果後來我們這個內部的同仁跟我講因為就是因為宣誤反黑就是不要讓我們好像就是有刻意不要讓我們立法院來去看所以之後我們所有行政官員太累了後來有一本我這邊手上有資料全部都指令目錄所以請問部長你能接受這樣的第二個小組嗎?"},{"start":444.532,"end":458.827,"text":"這樣第二小組你們這個內政部提供的第二小組的資料全部第一頁到最後一頁反黑不僅浪費值啊而且一點意義都沒有報告委員那內政部所提供的資料大概就是根據政府資訊公開法跟個資法我們都依照規定來辦理"},{"start":460.748,"end":485.173,"text":"所以部長其實我有跟你們內部討論了啦所以我希望是說這個第二小組而且我想這個我們召委主席大家都非常重視啦所以我相信這是史無前例喔從第一次喔從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁全部都反黑啊所以我相信是不是你們在內部溝通的部分有出現了什麼樣的狀況齁所以所以在最後還是拜託就是數位身份證"},{"start":485.993,"end":502.756,"text":"第1個就是說大陸未來還有沒有大陸這個治安的疑慮第一個你們要來去做一個來做一個解釋的一個動作不然說身份證是完全無法重啟第二個就是說我們相關的法令配套從當時一百"},{"start":504.657,"end":530.029,"text":"109年的時候行政院長當了行政院長現在總統賴清德通過了以後現在已經是113年了這幾年我們內政部、行政院有沒有想要修相關的法律如果沒有的話輸入身份證要如何重啟那第三個請部長協助要重視我們這個內政委員會、調查委員會來做職權行使的一個權利不能說從第一頁到最後一頁全部都反黑"},{"start":532.004,"end":546.281,"text":"這個看到這個那位子啊因為他們這個內部人員在施行的時候也覺得很無言到最後直接是只有一目錄所以我覺得這個是非常大家從功沒有意義的而且這真的讓大家我覺得國人沒辦法接受所以請部長協助可以嗎"},{"start":546.821,"end":562.957,"text":"是,剛剛委員特別提到就是說要不要重啟這個新式身份證的部分的話國安一律確實是我們現在所碰到最大的困擾那它必須要修的法真的是像剛剛委員所提到的不只三個法還有其他的相關的這個措施因為國安一律真的是非常的大"},{"start":563.337,"end":583.556,"text":"那第二個還是一樣我剛有特別提到說我們這個內政委會的這個調閱小組所要提供的資料的話站在內政部的立場就是按照我們政府資訊公開法跟個人資訊公開法的規定來管理。所以部長其實我們要你回答這一塊所以你認同這個他從第一頁到最後一頁一千多頁都是反黑嗎?沒有你當委員的時候你看到這樣的資料你能同意嗎?"},{"start":584.588,"end":613.317,"text":"所以部長我沒有讓你回答可是因為這點我是希望你可以好好去去改善啦因為這樣子我相信對我們內政委員會的委員都沒有辦法去接受啦而且你之前也是當過立法委員我需要說大家應該互相尊重好不好那部長這部分再拜託你我們需要說讓這個內政委員會的委員喔都一個一個可以更公開透明大家去了解而且一起來推動這個政府最重視的資安的問題也跟今天的主題這個打詐防詐騙是非常重要的好嗎部長"},{"start":613.757,"end":623.64,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"}]}},{"id":"153599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98df7c59dd4dce16ad155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62523c519c83fc81e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:47:41 - 10:57:03","影片長度":"00:09:22","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:47:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:57:03+08:00","duration":562,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時47分）謝謝召委。我很高興今天在我們委員會裡面，看到這麼多中央部會的人都來這裡，我們來看一下，今天我們是要針對詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案來做說明，所以很顯然它是跨部會的，除了跨部會之外，今天我們的行政院打擊詐欺辦公室的主任也有來，我們先請李主任好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：請主任。"],["高金委員素梅：主任，從剛剛開始一直都沒有聽到你說話，您認為今天我們要審這個法案，我唸一遍，您看正不正確。為了防制及打擊詐騙危害，我國，也就是中華民國從111年6月起就實施了新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領，對不對？從識詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐四大面向著手，要奠定各項政策基礎方針，並由行政院組成跨部會打詐國家隊。所以很早我們就清楚知道這是要跨部會的，而且國家也成立所謂的國家打詐隊，要來攜手協力共同應處詐欺犯罪的問題。面對詐欺犯罪型態和技術不斷演進，所以你們也非常清楚知道有非常多的、新型態的犯罪案不斷的發生，所以你們為了要因應高度反覆發生的詐欺犯罪案類型，你們在112年6月也實施了打詐綱領1.5版，以減少這些傷害為宗旨。請問一下，做了些什麼？"],["李主任憲明：跟委員報告，我們在111年執行這個1.0版的打詐綱領，但是執行一年之後，覺得還有提升打詐績效……"],["高金委員素梅：怎麼提升？怎麼提升？"],["李主任憲明：所以我們成立打擊詐欺的1.5版……"],["高金委員素梅：有啊！我就已經跟你說了112年是你們1.5版……"],["李主任憲明：主要是……"],["高金委員素梅：也編列預算給你了，你看112年編列8.6億；113年編列9億，請問你們的具體成效是在哪裡？因為今天我只有剩下1分鐘，我給你看一下具體成效，請警政署。111年詐騙案件2萬9,509件，112年詐騙案件3萬7,823件，我們看到有1.5版有編錢，詐騙案件只增不降，所以你認為今天我們修了這個法律、這個條例就可以來打詐了嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對，所以……"],["高金委員素梅：然後再來看一下4年詐騙案的破獲率，109年2.3萬件，110年2.4萬件；111年2.9萬件；112年3.7萬件，4年增加了1.4萬件，成長1.6%，破獲率是這麼低啊！我們有1.5版所謂的行政院跨部會小組，我們也編列了預算，為什麼我們的詐騙案件數是越來越高，破獲率越來越低呢？誰能夠告訴我？"],["張署長榮興：對，這個……"],["高金委員素梅：出了什麼問題？"],["張署長榮興：委員講的就是說……"],["高金委員素梅：出了什麼問題？請簡答，我只有剩下幾分鐘。"],["張署長榮興：我的問題就是源頭的管理……"],["高金委員素梅：署長，您不用說，沒關係，我們現在請行政院的主任，你今天來扮演很重要的角色，你要把今天來的各部會全部變成一個跨部會的小組，也就是說它的層級應該是在行政院長的層級，不是嗎？今天我們個別的內政部、警政署來說話，然後行政院、數發部來說話、法務部來說話，國家通訊傳播委員會也來講，可是金融監督各部會都有他們自己想做的，誰坐下來把他們全部整合起來？剛剛召委也講了，這些詐騙就應該要把他的手機給斷掉，這麼簡單的事情，為什麼這幾年來都不做呢？所以今天我們修了這個法、弄了這些條例就會減少了嗎？你敢告訴我確定可以嗎？請問一下主任。"],["李主任憲明：可以，現在我們有一些手段做得都不夠即時，要在專法通過之後可以大幅縮短……"],["高金委員素梅：哇，這四年來，所以我們被受騙的這些民眾真的是要等你們在這幾年當中才發現手段不夠？"],["李主任憲明：不是、不是，打詐是日新月異，那我們越打……如果不執行的話……"],["高金委員素梅：你自己的說明也講了，你就是因為知道日新月異，犯罪型態、技術不斷演進，所以你們才會在112年6月實施打詐綱領1.5版，錢也給你了，然後所謂的制度你們也建立了，為什麼還是這樣？好啦，今天沒有那麼多時間讓你回答，回去了，請真的用心來做這件事情，不要覺得在這邊幾分鐘結束了之後，這件事情就會結束。","召委，再給我一點時間。我們來看一下，請內政部警政署署長，主任可以回座，謝謝。我們看一下你們的防制詐騙的宣導資訊，我們從最簡單的來講起，就警政署的部分，你們有全民防騙網165、165的LINE官方帳號、165的宣導臉書，警政署有app，刑事警察局有官方網站，你們有沒有看見並發現一個事情？你們全部是透過網路宣傳，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對，我們宣傳的實體也有了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，原鄉跟偏鄉網路資訊本來就是獲取不易，我們有非常多的長輩連這些都看不到，他怎麼清楚知道他是被騙呢？所以請問一下，你們針對這個部分，你要怎麼樣再精進？"],["張署長榮興：委員，我們也會做實體的宣導。"],["高金委員素梅：實體怎麼做？"],["張署長榮興：入鄉入里去做宣導實體。"],["高金委員素梅：實體怎麼做？"],["張署長榮興：實體就是我們有宣導團到你們原鄉的部落裡面，集會的場合去做……"],["高金委員素梅：很好，所以你們知道問題，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：知道……"],["高金委員素梅：所以要有人力來宣傳，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：會有人力去做宣導。"],["高金委員素梅：請部長，謝謝。既然清楚知道在原鄉跟偏鄉，我們需要人力，所以足夠警力來宣傳有它的必要性，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["高金委員素梅：我們來看一下數據，從今年4月警政署的詐欺統計來看，除了離島之外，花東兩縣的詐欺破獲率是全國倒數前兩名，花東是原住民族最多的地區，而且都是老人留下最多，所以很顯然你知道問題是需要提高人力，我告訴你該怎麼做。我們來看一下檢察署，109年它的案件從5萬239件成長到16萬件，三年成長之幅度高達了360%，因為檢察署它的人力不足，所以在112年時，它提出了進用100位檢察官助理要的政策，要強化其偵查輔助人力，所以問題來了，檢察署都可以增加人力，清楚知道要有人力。請問一下我們警政署，你剛剛說了，在偏鄉跟原鄉地方，你們會編足人力，除了這個網路之外，所以人力夠嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對，我想委員講得很有道理……"],["高金委員素梅：很好，謝謝你。"],["張署長榮興：我們今年的人力就是在10月份大概有一千三百多人會畢業；明年大概兩千七百多位……"],["高金委員素梅：所以署長在這邊跟部長講一下，人力不夠，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：我不是說不夠，我就是說會針對這些區域發生的狀況，來做編派人力的派補。"],["高金委員素梅：好。現在既然署長這麼說，部長，我在這邊，您真的是滿辛苦的，一上來就要面對這麼多的問題，尤其是詐騙這件事情，你看這個照片，我到原鄉地區都幫我們基層的警政署來拍照片……"],["張署長榮興：對，這個宣導，謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：就是因為人力不夠，所以署長你這邊要非常清楚跟部長講，因為我們的基層人力真的不夠，他除了一般警政的業務之外，現在新興犯罪也非常多，尤其是原鄉跟偏鄉的警力，所以偏鄉跟原鄉的警力一定要增加，這個警力不僅僅是防制、交通等等的，它還有新興的犯罪是需要人力去宣導的。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["高金委員素梅：所以可不可以在兩週之內提出一些書面報告，讓本席清楚知道你們在原鄉跟偏鄉，第一、怎麼樣增加人力？第二、怎麼解決這些問題？"],["張署長榮興：好，沒問題。"],["高金委員素梅：可以嗎？請問部長，請問部長可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來努力。"],["高金委員素梅：好，兩週之內。"],["張署長榮興：一個月可以嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：好，沒關係，一個月，我體恤你們非常的辛苦。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：一個月之內告訴我，除了打詐之外，還有原鄉的警力不足的部分是要怎麼補足，提出具體的書面報告，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員，是。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝署長、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅召委的質詢。下一位我們請張智倫委員質詢，在張智倫委員、丁學忠委員質詢完以後我們就休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.36409375,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.204093750000002,"end":27.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.76471875,"end":32.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.22409375,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.31659375,"end":37.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.72971875,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.298468750000005,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.92534375,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.97534375,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.12096875,"end":102.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.55909375,"end":105.09471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.98909375000001,"end":117.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.42596875000001,"end":129.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.47659375,"end":120.48471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.81721875000001,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":131.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.93659375000001,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.64721875,"end":161.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.09846875000002,"end":167.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.24096875,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.59534375,"end":172.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.81409375,"end":201.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.54784375000003,"end":206.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.86409375000002,"end":205.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.91846875000002,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.25596875000002,"end":213.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.43221875,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.66846875000002,"end":214.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.76534375,"end":215.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.40096875,"end":254.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.55221875,"end":263.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.97284375000004,"end":264.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.63096875,"end":271.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.63846875,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.78596875,"end":274.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.02534375,"end":285.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.80909375000005,"end":289.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.84284375000004,"end":304.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.16471875,"end":322.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.20409375,"end":324.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.80721875,"end":344.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.61846875000003,"end":345.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.64784375000005,"end":349.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.03596875,"end":346.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.82909375,"end":347.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.43221875,"end":364.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.11346875000004,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.49284375,"end":366.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.20971875000004,"end":369.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.07034375,"end":371.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.75346875,"end":372.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.77034375000005,"end":382.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.16221875,"end":375.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.52909375,"end":453.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.94409375000004,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.02846875,"end":394.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.31534375,"end":394.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.59284375000004,"end":469.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.42784375,"end":458.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.64596875,"end":469.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.64534375000005,"end":480.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.60596875000005,"end":488.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.74784375,"end":489.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.40159375,"end":495.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.56534375,"end":498.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.97034375000004,"end":510.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.95534375000005,"end":513.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.91721875,"end":512.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.40221875,"end":537.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.3428437499999,"end":515.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.4853437500001,"end":521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很好,所以你們知道問題對不對?所以要有人力來宣傳嘛對不對?"},{"start":381.895,"end":393.442,"text":"好,署長請部長了,謝謝。既然清楚知道在園鄉跟偏鄉我們需要人力,所以足夠的警力宣傳有它的必要性對不對?"},{"start":394.202,"end":416.564,"text":"我們來看一下數據從今年4月警政署的詐欺統計來看我們除了離島之外花東兩縣的詐欺破獲率是全國倒數前兩名花東是原住民族地區的最多而且呢都是老人留下最多所以很顯然你知道問題需要提高人力我告訴你該怎麼做我們來看一下檢察署"},{"start":417.125,"end":422.647,"text":"他109年他的案件從5239成長到16萬,三年之間幅度高達了320%,因為檢察署他的人力不足,所以他在112年的時候他提出了禁用檢察官助理要有100人的政策,他要強化他的偵查輔助人力,所以問題來了。"},{"start":440.093,"end":467.081,"text":"檢察署都可以增加人力清楚知道要有人力請問一下我們警政署你剛剛說了在偏鄉跟原鄉之地方你們會編族人力除了這個網路之外所以人力夠嗎對我想這個委員講的很有道理人力我們今年就是在10月份大概有1300多人會畢業那明年大概2700多位所以署長在這邊跟部長講一下人力不夠對不對"},{"start":470.242,"end":489.587,"text":"我不是說不過我只是說會針對這些區域的這一些發生的這個狀況來做這個編派人力的一個派補好現在既然署長這麼多部長我在這邊您真的是蠻辛苦的一上來就要面對這麼多的問題尤其是詐騙這個是這件事情你看這個照片"},{"start":490.467,"end":512.882,"text":"我到原鄉地區都幫我們基層的警政署來拍照片,就是因為人力不夠,對不對,因為人力不夠,所以署長你這邊要非常清楚跟部長講,因為我們的基層人力真的不夠,它除了一般警政的業務之外,現在新興犯罪也非常多,尤其是原鄉跟偏鄉的警力,所以偏鄉跟"},{"start":513.982,"end":539.851,"text":"懸殼警力一定要增加。這個警力不僅僅是破壞所謂的防制交通等等的,它還有這個新興的犯罪,是需要人力去宣導的。所以可不可以在兩週之內提出一些書面報告,讓本席清楚知道你們在懸殼跟偏鄉,一、怎麼這樣增加人力,第二、怎麼解決這些問題,好不好?沒問題。可以嗎?請問部長。可以。請問部長可以嗎?可以。"},{"start":542.572,"end":550.156,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"}]}},{"id":"153598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98bc769566bed7b564155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62eaef66121a9c03715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:41:22 - 10:47:18","影片長度":"00:05:56","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:41:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:47:18+08:00","duration":356,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時41分）召委、與會同仁。請內政部部長、警政署署長、數位部次長，還有NCC的主秘。"],["主席：內政部劉部長，張署長，數位部林次長，還有NCC主秘黃文哲，謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長、署長，還有各單位。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：其實我早上在這邊聽，我曾經遇過一個案例，就是3月份有一位立法院的同仁跑來國會陳情他被詐欺了400萬，3月份他就報警了，5月份那個網站還存在，這一點就表示各單位都沒有統籌。你說叫民眾打165、到派出所去報案，照理講派出所一定要直接報上一個專責的單位，除了刑事局以外，NCC、數位部、法務部、還有各單位要共同成立一個專門打詐的專責單位，全國民眾不管在哪個派出所一報案，馬上就可以到這個單位，這個單位是跨部會來辦案、處理，也可以隨時跟民眾說明辦案的情形到哪裡，如果能這樣做，相信就沒有下一個受害者了，這是很重要的。所以我今天早上聽起來，就是跨部會要整合起來，這樣才能向打詐宣戰。尤其數位部很重要，既然外國的軟體公司是來到臺灣做生意，就要遵守我們臺灣的法令。所以我們今天要處理所有打詐的法條都很重要，我也期盼國民黨、民眾黨及民進黨大家都要全力向打詐宣戰，才能夠替我們臺灣人解決問題。是不是請署長說明？部長先坐。"],["主席：部長先休息。"],["張署長榮興：委員，你說得很對，所以這部打詐的專法是結合各部會的。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，單打獨鬥絕對沒辦法解決問題。"],["張署長榮興：我剛才有說過，這是結合起來的，不管是金管、通傳或者數發部、法務部、內政部等5個部會，是大家通力合作要來打擊詐欺，讓人民有感。"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["張署長榮興：最重要的是讓人民有感。剛才委員說的3月這件案件，3月就報案，但是這家公司還一直在投放這些訊息嘛。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，在FB裡面。"],["張署長榮興：在FB裡面。我們通報請它下架大概有三十幾次，但是我現在要跟委員報告，我們希望全國的百姓都不要被騙，最好是這樣，大家都不要被騙，但是萬一誤信、被騙而去報案，我們全國所有的警察機關、任何的派出所都可以受理報案，有單一窗口受理報案，受理報案以後，我們有主責的單位，就是被害人住的地方，我們會做管理、偵辦、關懷、瞭解，讓他知道偵辦的進度。再來就是配合其他相關部會、相關單位，該要去調資料的，後續如果那個廣告平臺會再去騙別人，就要趕快下架，我們會配合相關部會做處理，所以我們會跟金管會、通傳、數發這3個單位聯絡下架或調取所有的資料，案件就進入偵辦的階段。我要跟委員報告，以後這部法律通過，我們就有法源可以來處理，讓打詐更有力氣。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長，謝謝，國人都期待今天的修法如果通過，能夠解決很多問題。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：接下來我想請教NCC主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主秘，剛才我聽說我們會處理移工SIM卡的部分，其實移工SIM卡的部分可以結合移民署，移工逃掉，你們應該主動把他的SIM卡關掉啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對，委員的建議正是我們現在目前執行的。"],["吳委員琪銘：對呀！所以我才說要成立一個跨部會的單位來統籌，任何的詐騙都是由這個跨部會的單位處理。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這一段我們會跟勞動部、移民署做資料庫連結，目前我們也正在討論，應該近期內就會將這兩個單位的資料統一在移民署那邊，然後由我們要求業者定期要去查詢，只要查到這些人不在境內的話，這張移工卡會先暫停服務。"],["吳委員琪銘：對呀，這很簡單啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：瞭解。"],["吳委員琪銘：你就跟移民署這邊連線，該停的就把它停了，就不會流到外面啊！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：應該是勞動部跟移民署。"],["吳委員琪銘：對啊、對啊！好不好？因為我們今天修的法，未來都是你們預計、絕對要杜絕這個詐騙，好不好？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委的質詢，謝謝。現在我們請吳召委再當主席。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：下一位請高金素梅召委質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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- 10:41:10","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:33:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:41:10+08:00","duration":471,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":721,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時33分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好，請教一下，今天我們這個反詐條例，大家都非常關心，因為對於詐騙大家都深惡痛絕，請教一下，現在詐騙的前三名大概是什麼樣的類型？"],["劉部長世芳：類型部分，我們請警政署來回應一下。"],["張署長榮興：現在最多是假投資，再來就是解除分期付款，再來就是網路的詐騙，這前三樣是最多的。"],["黃委員捷：其實我這邊也是看到現在第一名大概就是投資詐騙，其實我們立院有同事的家人，就是涉及這種詐騙的類型──投資詐騙；再來第二種就是分期付款，第三種就是網路的買賣嘛。這三種確實是現在我們最關心的，因為很多人，像剛剛巧慧委員也有提到，他看到那個一頁式廣告，也會差點要點進去。","就這一次我們修法的內容，針對這一些犯罪的類型，還有大家受騙的類型，有沒有一些你們接下來即將可以處理的？可不可以用非常白話的方式讓大家知道，我們接下來是有辦法透過這個反詐專法來處理這些大家會遇到的，包括投資詐騙、網路買賣，或者是解除分期付款，這一些非常有可能遇到的詐騙類型。"],["張署長榮興：這個簡單來講就有三大任務，第一個就是從源頭那邊，也就是將這些訊息絕阻，而且是可以去追來源，他要去投放這個廣告，要有相關身分的證明，甚至在國外的話，在國內也要有法律代理人，這樣就可以追得到誰去投放這個廣告啦，讓這個廣告的訊息沒辦法讓民眾去接觸到，就是不會接觸到這個，這個當然會在我們，未來就是在數發、金管，或者通傳這個區塊，各部會會去協調、聯繫。","再來，講的比較白一點的就是，對於未來已經接觸到了這個訊息時，我們希望讓民眾不會去相信，我們會加強來做宣導，也就是說，現在這些高好發的詐騙手法，我們會精準地針對分齡、分眾的去做宣導，讓他們知道這個是詐騙。","第三個部分，關於被害人保護的部分，剛剛委員也有提到，就是說，有很多人被詐騙後被騙的錢要不回來，我們現在有一個返還的機制，將擴大沒收這些不法的所得。另外，有一些圈存的，會有一些簡化返還的程序。內政部警政署的部分，一定會負責全力去做查緝的作為，我們會從下游到上游，從下游的車手，車手的領款、面交，或者是金融方面的阻詐，或者是上源這些詐欺的水房、車房，會全力來做查緝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝署長，部長跟署長先請回。","再來，我要請教一下NCC，因為我覺得接下來的重點確實像剛剛署長有講到源頭的阻斷，以及接下來這些底下的車手，或是一些人頭帳戶到底要怎麼去阻斷它。請教一下NCC，我們現在的這個內容，是不是因為過去把它分為第一類電信、第二類電信，然後現在是針對過去的這些第二類電信沒有辦法處理的，也要求他要實名制？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：不是，我們在號碼管理辦法裡面已經處理掉大部分的問題了，目前這個法律裡面只在處理一個，就是有些電信服務不需要號碼，所以在補這一塊。另外一塊是我們在講的黑莓卡這一塊，因為黑莓卡是境外電信服務。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：另外一塊是我們在講的移工卡這一塊，因為移工卡這一塊在將來我們會寫在號碼管理辦法裡面，同時也確實是有所謂沒有使用電話號碼這一塊，所以我這邊也在處理移工卡，等於是除了以電信處理法為主，這部分打詐條例裡面的電信章主要是補充電信管理辦法裡面所沒有的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝補充，這就是我想請教的。我想問接下來這些電信業者是不是也應該要負一定的責任？畢竟他們其實就是提供這些國際漫遊服務的電信商嘛。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。事實上，3家電信業者都是上市公司，如果我們要求他們要做哪一些、課予他們什麼樣的義務，最好是要有法律的依據……"],["黃委員捷：當然。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為我們現在的制度跟以前的特許制度其實不太一樣了，所以在這邊於法有據，就能請業者配合辦理。"],["黃委員捷：這個也是我希望等一下進入逐條的時候我們可以討論的部分，三大電信業者其實在中間扮演非常重要協助通訊的角色，但是並沒有課予他們一定的義務及責任。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，這部分我們會處理、加強。"],["黃委員捷：對，也要請他們加強，謝謝NCC。","最後我請教一下數發部，就問一個問題，現在這些廣告上架到底有沒有辦法更有效、積極地阻斷？明明很明顯就是詐騙，可是因為受害人沒有主動地去檢舉或者跟你們報案，變成你們都沒有辦法主動地下架這些一頁式的詐騙廣告，當然不一定是一頁式，其實網路廣告漫天飛，非常多的詐騙訊息都是這樣來的，數發部在當中的角色到底是什麼？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，第一個，我們要知道有哪些詐騙的廣告，接下來我們會有兩種作為：第一個是我們資安院每天會利用AI的技術去掃描網路上所有可能的詐騙廣告，這樣每天大概可以查到5,000個左右，然後我們會把這些訊息立即地轉送跨國的網路廣告平臺，要求他們下架，但是他們現在下架的速度比較慢，因為他們堅持他們的法務一定要做一些什麼確認。我們希望這個法律通過以後，我們就可以要求這些跨國網路平臺，像LINE、facebook，用更快的速度去進行下架。當然，政府這邊也會善盡一些義務，做一些確認，譬如當廣告名人的身分被仿冒的時候，其實他本身往往不是受害者，受害者是那些被騙的民眾。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["林次長宜敬：所以這個地方我們就希望由政府跟這些名人取得一定的默契，能趕快把這些事情告知這些跨國網路平臺。"],["黃委員捷：其實我覺得到時候真的一一通知名人也太慢了，因為你還要跟所有被冒用、被冒名者取得聯繫，我覺得最重要的責任還是在於平臺的業者。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["黃委員捷：所以我也希望等一下審查的時候，包括第三十條裡面平臺業者制訂的防詐計畫，以及平臺業者的防詐責任，應該是平臺也要一起過來負擔的。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["黃委員捷：所以我也希望接下來在審查的時候，我們也有一定的機制要求這些社群平臺的業者，不管是LINE、Meta，還是所有的社群平臺業者，也應該要負起一定篩選內容的責任。它當然不是去限制大家的言論自由，而是很明顯內容是犯罪的，但是平臺業者好像都與它無關，這是最大的問題。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["黃委員捷：這個要拜託數發部門再努力一下。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員，也請委員多支持，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝次長。"],["主席（高金委員素梅代）：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","繼續請召委吳琪銘質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 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案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件 、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":51.951,"end":74.687,"text":"對 那這三種確實是現在我們最關心的因為很多人像剛剛巧慧委員也提到他看到那個一頁式廣告也會插點要點進去那就這一次我們修法的內容針對這一些犯罪的類型還有大家受騙的類型有沒有一些你們接下來即將可以處理的可不可以用非常白話的方式讓大家知道說我們接下來是有辦法透過這個反詐的專法來處理這些大家會遇到的包括投資詐騙"},{"start":81.672,"end":86.347,"text":"網路買賣或者是解除分期付款這一些非常有可能遇到的詐騙類型。"},{"start":89.219,"end":109.054,"text":"好 這個簡單來講就有三大任務第一個就是從源頭那邊也就是這些訊息截止而且是有可以去追來源他要去投放這個廣告要有這些身份的證明甚至有在國外的話在國內就是要有法律代人也都可以追得到誰去投放這個廣告啦讓這個廣告的訊息沒辦法讓民眾去接觸到"},{"start":114.448,"end":114.528,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":130.365,"end":145.075,"text":"接觸到的這些這個訊息我們希望就是民眾不會讓他去相信那我們會加強來做做宣討也就是說現在高高號發的這些詐騙的這些的手法我們會做精準的去做"},{"start":145.956,"end":150.579,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":170.794,"end":197.329,"text":"懲罰懲罰懲罰懲罰懲罰"},{"start":197.569,"end":225.266,"text":"好 謝謝署長那我再來謝謝我們部長跟署長先請回再來我請教一下NCC因為我覺得接下來的重點確實像剛剛署長有講到源頭的阻斷以及接下來的這些底下的車手或是這些人頭賬戶到底要怎麼去阻斷他請教一下NCC我們現在的這個內容是不是因為過去把它分為第一類電信第二類電信然後現在是針對過去的這些第二類電信沒有辦法處理的也要求他要實名制不是"},{"start":225.686,"end":245.16,"text":"不是,因為這個我們在號碼關聯辦法裡面已經處理到一大部分的問題了目前這個法律裡面只有只在處理一個就是因為有些電信服務它不需要號碼所以我要補這一塊那另外一塊呢是我們在講的黑美卡這一塊因為黑美卡是境外電信服務那另外一塊是我們在講的那個移工卡這一塊"},{"start":245.74,"end":260.635,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":266.906,"end":267.646,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":287.776,"end":288.177,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":299.241,"end":320.824,"text":"好 那這個也是我希望等一下進入主條的時候我們可以討論的部分針對三大電信業者他們其實在中間扮演非常重要的協助通訊的角色但是他們並沒有予以他們一定的義務跟責任所以我也希望說他們也要對 也要請他們加強好 謝謝NCC最後我請教一下述發部就問一個問題喔"},{"start":322.105,"end":347.02,"text":"就是說現在我們這一些廣告上架到底有沒有辦法你們有更有效積極的去阻斷這一些明明很明顯都是詐騙可是因為受害人沒有主動的去檢舉或者是跟你們報案變成說你們都沒有辦法去主動的下架這些一夜市的詐騙廣告當然不一定一夜市啦其實網路廣告漫天飛非常多的詐騙訊息都是這樣來的那書發部在當中的角色到底是什麼"},{"start":348.181,"end":372.803,"text":"審查委員關於這個第一個我們要知道說有哪些詐騙的廣告接下來我們會做有兩種作為第一個是我們在資安院每天會利用AI的技術去掃描網路上所有可能的詐騙廣告那這樣子每天大概可以查到大概5000個左右然後我們把這些訊息立即的轉送去給那些跨國的網路廣告平台要求他們下架"},{"start":373.183,"end":379.905,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、九、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、"},{"start":403.933,"end":427.134,"text":"所以這個地方我們就希望說由我們政府跟這些名人取得一定的默契能趕快把這些事情把他報告跟告知這些跨國網路平台其實我覺得到時候真的一一的通知名人也太慢啦因為你還要跟所有被冒用的冒名者去跟他取得聯繫我覺得最重要的責任其實還是在於平台的業者"},{"start":427.674,"end":454.002,"text":"所以我也希望說等一下審查的時候包括在第30條裡面平台業者制定的防詐計畫以及平台業者的防詐的責任這應該是平台也要一起過來負擔的所以這我也希望說接下來在審查的時候我們也有一定的機制要求這一些社群平台的業者不管是LINE、不管是META還是所有的社群的業者也應該要負起一定的篩選內容的責任"},{"start":455.683,"end":470.792,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、"}]}},{"id":"153596","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153596","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98e9ece286d858e18a155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62447e5504a5f230c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:26:27 - 10:33:04","影片長度":"00:06:37","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:26:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:33:04+08:00","duration":397,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時26分）謝謝主席，請劉部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許委員宇甄：還有NCC的黃主秘。"],["主席：請NCC主秘。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：兩位好。部長，政府為了打擊詐騙，所以現在要制定這個詐防專法，我想大家都非常的支持，也希望這樣的一個打擊詐騙的專法訂定之後，能夠真正的防止詐騙。當然這個部分，我想除了制定專法之外，我們應該還有兩大基礎工作要做，第一個是帳戶的監管，強化KYC的策略，全面打擊人頭帳戶，我想這方面做得還不錯。第二個是政府也應該做好個資管理，當然我想這個部分政府就有待加強，我在5月2號質詢時有特別提出，連中國大陸都有我國的戶政資料可以比對，尤其在2023年有駭客在網站上面賣我國的戶籍資料，包括身分證、地址、配偶、父母等，這些資料全部都洩漏了。現在連民進黨的執行長王義川都可以隨意地拿到電信的個資，所以由此可知，我們政府在電信個資上有很大的問題，雖然王義川在電視上改口說其實他是由膝蓋得知啦，變成現代的「王膝知」，但是犯罪大家都知道首重初供啦，所以現在被抓包才翻供的狀況之下，我想沒有人會相信。","在這邊想要請問部長，就是我們這次的專法立法完成之後，對於外洩個資導致詐騙的業者，我們有哪些防護措施？本席今天有提出修正動議，就是針對電信個資外洩的部分，罰則要再加重，當然除了提高罰款之外，我們還希望能夠限制取得電信的頻譜，請問劉部長是不是支持？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，關於個資，我想個資外洩這件事情主要處理是在個資保護法裡面，昨天的話，因為禮拜三質詢過後，禮拜一的時候其實我們就已經針對王義川先生在媒體上面所說的，他們有透過這些個資的比對，這件事情我們也經過查核。我們查核的結果是，在個資部分，三家電信業者並沒有洩漏，但是在去識別化這一塊，我們昨天也發了一個新聞稿，要求三大電信事業，必須就去識別化的這一塊，必須要加強保護，同時要導入2910……"],["許委員宇甄：是不是能夠在會後將相關資料提供一份給本席辦公室？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：好。"],["許委員宇甄：這邊要請教部長的是，針對這個部分，我有提出修正動議，就是希望能夠再提高罰款，還有就是限制取得電信頻譜，請問部長是不是支持？"],["劉部長世芳：我有看到許委員所提的部分，但是就我們在提出這個法案方面，當然是可以參考，因為等一下我們希望能夠逐條，進入逐條的時候，我們一樣要再來檢視一下，如果其他部會可以一起同意的話，我們當然不反對，但是要看其他的部會在衡平的處理上面是不是有達到共識。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，謝謝部長。我想其實最近，剛剛也有委員提到，就是最近輝達的執行長黃仁勳現在來到臺灣，您可以看一下螢幕上的資料，其實他有非常多的粉絲團都邀請大家加入，請問我們可以加入嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：基本上，據我們的瞭解，現在我們在網路上看到的所有粉絲團都是假的，對於這種詐騙，我們數位發展部是分成三部分來處理，在最短期我們是設立一個名人的通報郵件信箱，我們也跟黃仁勳先生以及一些社會名人那邊取得聯絡，他們遇到這種詐騙的時候可以馬上跟我們講，我們馬上就是去要求LINE、facebook這些網路廣告平臺讓它下架，這是最短期的作法。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛你說12個小時之內嗎？是嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：那是現在他們的速度是這個樣子，但是這個法律通過以後……"],["許委員宇甄：之後才能12個小時？"],["林次長宜敬：他們速度太慢的話，我們就可以罰它。"],["許委員宇甄：其實現在我們一打黃仁勳還是一堆嘛，包括說，其實現在我們是針對這個反詐騙四法，就是我們現在的打詐四法，我也上網google了一下，結果它出現了一堆的廣告，然後我點進去之後一看居然是內政部警政署的165全民防騙網，請問這個真的是警政署的網站嗎？還是冒用的網站？這個其實你只要打進去就是一堆這樣子詐騙的東西出現……"],["黃大隊長國師：報告委員，那個是假的，也是冒用，只有那個logo是假冒165，那上面的都是詐騙集團。"],["許委員宇甄：請教署長，因為這個幾乎是非常的猖獗，而且你一打進去反詐騙四法，就已經都在最上面。"],["張署長榮興：這個都是詐騙的廣告，未來在這個法通過之後，能夠從源頭那邊做身分上的一個確認，他才有辦法上這個廣告，廣告業者要有這個責任，這部分未來在數發部這個地方應該會做嚴格，會做源頭的把關。"],["許委員宇甄：所以制定這個專法之後，這樣子的問題就能夠從源頭管理嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，就個人、名人的部分，我們會要求做實名制，就是說，網路廣告平臺必須去確認這是本人發出來的，然後在政府方面的話，當然是政府單位得到那個訊息以後，馬上會要求LINE跟facebook這種跨國網路平臺，要求他們馬上把它下架，這個法律如果能夠通過的話，對我們的幫助會非常非常大，希望貴院委員能夠支持。"],["許委員宇甄：其實現在被詐騙的人非常的多，所以他們一被詐騙之後，當然就希望尋求一些想要處理的方式，結果因為這樣子上網google一下，反而他可能還會被詐騙第二次，所以這個部分可能要請部長這邊，還有我們今天這個法律通過之後，能夠好好的來協助，讓所有受詐騙的人，能夠真正得到協助，第一個，除了從源頭管理；第二個，也希望真正能夠幫助到他們。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員，我們會努力，也請委員多支持，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的發言，下一位我們我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.91221875,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3.94596875,"end":5.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.43096875,"end":5.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.000343750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.46784375,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.58534375,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.32784375,"end":69.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.33659375,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.23409375,"end":122.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.12159375,"end":122.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.88096875000001,"end":129.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.18784375,"end":133.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.46159375000002,"end":136.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.43159375000002,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.13596875000002,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.21159375000002,"end":145.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.03346875,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.07784375,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.34721875,"end":163.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.34096875,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.22159375,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.56721875000002,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.08596875,"end":194.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.34284375000001,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.83596875,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.88346875000002,"end":220.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.80659375000002,"end":244.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.53284375,"end":247.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.23284375000003,"end":254.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.53221875000003,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.32534375,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.70909375000002,"end":252.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.34159375000002,"end":266.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.18909375000004,"end":257.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.28471875,"end":282.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.09221875000003,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.06596875,"end":289.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.16721875,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.21784375000004,"end":289.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":290.77034375,"end":294.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":294.87096875000003,"end":298.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.56659375000004,"end":305.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":303.64596875,"end":303.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":303.66284375000004,"end":306.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.88596875,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":307.49346875000003,"end":309.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":309.97409375,"end":321.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":321.49971875,"end":326.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.66784375000003,"end":331.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":328.70534375,"end":328.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.97534375000004,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":330.03846875000005,"end":330.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.53159375,"end":349.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.86659375000005,"end":358.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.20721875000004,"end":368.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.05346875000004,"end":389.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.72534375000004,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.75909375000003,"end":390.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.42534375,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.50534375,"end":393.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.62721875,"end":397.84221875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.236,"end":11.986,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":18.568,"end":34.554,"text":"兩位好我想部長就是政府為了打擊這個詐騙所以現在制定我們這個這個詐房的專法我想大家都非常的支持那也希望說這樣子的一個打擊專打擊詐騙的專法訂定之後是能夠真正的防止詐騙啦"},{"start":35.774,"end":51.336,"text":"當然這個部分的話我想除了這個制定專法之後我們應該還有兩大的基礎工作要做一個是這個帳戶的監管強化KYC的策略前面打擊的人頭帳戶我想這方面做得還不錯第二個就是政府也應該做好個資管理"},{"start":51.817,"end":63.092,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":69.56,"end":84.567,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":94.992,"end":123.397,"text":"財販共的狀況之下我想沒有人會相信那在這邊請問部長就是我們這次的專法立法完成之後對於外洩個資導致詐騙的業者我們有哪些的防護措施那本席今天有提出的修正動議就是針對電信個資外洩的部分罰則再加重當然除了提高罰款之外我們還希望能夠限制取得電信的這個評估那請問劉部長是不是支持跟委員報告"},{"start":123.837,"end":137.088,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":146.115,"end":175.183,"text":"在各自的部分的話三家電信業者並沒有洩漏但是在去識別化這一塊我們昨天也發了一個新聞稿要求三大電信事業你必須就去識別化的這一塊你必須要加強保護同時要導致會後請把相關的資料一份給本市辦公室那這邊要請教部長的是說我們針對這個部分希望法國有提出收入動力就是希望能夠再提高罰款還有就是限制取得這個電信評估請問部長是不是支持"},{"start":176.377,"end":194.429,"text":"有看到許委員所提的部分但是就我們在提出這個法案當然是可以參考因為等一下我們希望能夠主條進入主條的時候我們一案再來檢視一案如果其他部會可以一起同意的話我們當然不反對但是要看其他的部會在橫頻的處理上面是不是有達到共識"},{"start":195.069,"end":195.489,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":215.379,"end":241.085,"text":"基本上據我們了解現在我們在網路上看到的這個所有粉絲團都是假的那對於這種詐騙的話我們數位發展部分成三部分來處理在最短期呢我們是設立一個那個名人的通報郵件信箱那我們也跟黃仁勳先生以及一些社會名人那邊取得聯絡他們遇到這種詐騙的時候可以馬上跟我們講我們馬上就是去要求LINE還有Facebook這些"},{"start":241.618,"end":241.999,"text":"綜合國際協議委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":257.402,"end":279.92,"text":"包括說其實現在我們就是針對這個我也針對這個反詐騙四法就我們現在打詐四法我也上網google了一下結果他出現了一堆的這個這些廣告然後我點進去之後一看居然是內政部警政署的165全面全民防騙網請問這個是真的是警政署的網站嗎還是貿易用的網站"},{"start":283.12,"end":297.472,"text":"那這個其實你只要打進去就一堆這樣子的一個這個詐騙的這個出現包括那個是假的也是冒用只有那個logo是假冒165那上面的都是詐騙集團"},{"start":298.732,"end":308.257,"text":"那請教署長,因為這個幾乎是非常的猖獗嘛,而且你一打進去,反詐騙司法就已經都在最上面了。這個就是詐騙的廣告。那未來就是說,這個法通過之後,能夠從源頭那邊做身份上的一個確認,他才有辦法上這個廣告嘛。"},{"start":318.203,"end":318.684,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":333.547,"end":349.518,"text":"是,就個人名人的部分我們要求就是做實名制就是說那個網路廣告平台必須去確認這是本人發出來的然後在政府的方面的話我們當然是政府單位得到那個訊息以後馬上會要求那個LINE跟Facebook這種"},{"start":349.978,"end":350.919,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員"},{"start":369.17,"end":369.63,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"}]}},{"id":"153595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98cf542d4d202ae9a2155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee627e2aff7ea9671b775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:17:26 - 10:26:11","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:17:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:26:11+08:00","duration":525,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":639,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時17分）主席，請部長、署長。"],["主席：請部長還有署長，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：再請通訊傳播委員會主秘。"],["劉部長世芳：NCC的主秘？"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["主席：請黃文哲主秘。"],["王委員美惠：本席在此請問，現在什麼人最紅？尤其來臺灣的哪一位在全世界最紅？什麼人最紅？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：黃仁勳。"],["王委員美惠：黃仁勳嘛！在手機裡面的黃仁勳。我覺得他很偉大，而且對臺灣有夠好，當中共對臺灣周邊發射、欺負臺灣的時候，他還要帶這麼多人來臺灣設廠，我相信大家對他都豎起大拇指。不過在這個手機裡面，我很想把他加入，不過要加入的時候，我都不知道到底哪個是真的，還是有假的，我都不知道，搜尋到五、六個黃仁勳，有黃仁勳照片的，他是嘉義人，我也是嘉義人，我也覺得很高興，畢竟他是臺灣人。這裡我要說的就是，今天我們說打詐、打詐，在百姓還沒有發生事情的時候，我們要怎麼從源頭把事情做好？讓他們不會欺騙我們，如果被騙之後，我們要怎麼協助百姓，這才是重要的啦！"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["王委員美惠：因為有時候百姓憨直被別人騙，被騙之後只會想到說：我不知道要怎麼辦，我只能找派出所、找警察局。不過有的都回復他：你就打一個電話165。現在我要請教你們各單位，百姓如果被詐騙的時候，我們今天修這個法，有什麼辦法能讓百姓可以把他們的錢追回來？還是可以在他們報案之後提供相關訊息，讓他們知道現在辦案進度到哪裡？這是最重要的。請你們說明一下。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員，目前委員提的問題我們有深刻體認，現在內政部警政署能處理的基本上都是已經有犯罪，而且是有財損的時候，他們那邊才會受理，現在在網路上有很多……"],["王委員美惠：如果還沒犯罪，但想要犯罪，就像我跟你講的，手機裡面有四、五個黃仁勳，他還寫黃仁勳、嘉義人……"],["林次長宜敬：是、是。"],["王委員美惠：我也很想把它點下去，不過我看這四、五個黃仁勳應該是假的吧？"],["林次長宜敬：是，還沒有犯罪的偽冒身分，這些事情是由我們數發部來處理。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["林次長宜敬：我們數發部有三個策略來進行，以最短期的來講，我們現在成立一個給名人、公眾人物通報的特殊e-mail，我們也跟黃仁勳……"],["王委員美惠：通報多久可以讓這個網站下架？"],["林次長宜敬：另外一方面就是我們去……"],["王委員美惠：不是，我現在問的是，如果通報之後，這個網站何時能夠下架？"],["林次長宜敬：大概要到12個小時，主要的問題……"],["王委員美惠：12個小時？"],["林次長宜敬：主要的問題就是在於LINE還有Meta……"],["王委員美惠：那我跟你說，我看到這個已經3天了……"],["林次長宜敬：知道，所以我們需要這個法案，因為我們現在要求Meta跟LINE下架，他們速度很慢……"],["王委員美惠：對嘛，現在就是要有這個法，看有沒有辦法趕快在12個鐘頭以內可以下架。"],["林次長宜敬：我們希望他們在1個小時或者30分鐘之內就馬上下架。"],["王委員美惠：對，這樣損害會減輕啦！"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["王委員美惠：再來，關於你剛才解釋的，因為本席遇到很多百姓……說實在的，打詐實在非常的重要……"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["王委員美惠：一般的百姓，無論年紀大小都曾經遇過，就算他們沒有遇過，他們的周遭、鄰居也會遇到，所以署長你認為百姓打165之後，事情發生就發生了，要怎麼處理？可以如何協助百姓？"],["張署長榮興：我想關於這個部分，也就是剛才說的，從源頭去阻止被廣告騙的機率，但如果沒有堵得很好的，就是讓一些人能減少誤信。再來，如果被騙了就減少傷害，到165這邊有兩個層次，一個層次就是他們來查詢這到底是不是詐騙，我們會跟他們說這是詐騙，不要被騙了；另一個就是，已經被騙了來165報案，165報案受理之後，我們就會進入偵查，但是現在這個法修過之後，對被害人的保護有做完善的措施，譬如說有一些錢還圈存在那裡，以後還可以返還、討回；還有一些可以去諮詢的，譬如說他可能被騙了，在處理的過程中心情不好，我們會輔導他到其他單位來做輔導，我想……"],["王委員美惠：署長，我講給你聽，錢被騙了，大家都心情不好……"],["張署長榮興：對，我知道。"],["王委員美惠：那不用輔導啦！趕快把錢追回來，心情就會好了，還要去輔導？"],["張署長榮興：我要說明的是，這部法裡面就是對於不法所得可以扣下來……"],["王委員美惠：署長，針對本席提問的這些問題，你去把它研議好，因為等一下我們要逐條審查，要讓百姓知道這個法修過對百姓有什麼用處。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["王委員美惠：主席，再給我1分鐘，我想請主秘。主秘，本席要跟你說的是，電信業者都有賣SIM卡，長久以來都是外勞去辦、去買，賣給臺灣人的詐騙集團，說實在的，我認為那個通訊業者有夠沒良心的……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是、是。"],["王委員美惠：這要怎麼處理？我覺得你們也知道細節，他們都叫外勞的去辦、去買，然後給違法的人使用……"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["王委員美惠：像賣房子的也是這樣，騙人家房子要賣，後來才發現電話是假的，結果你們都抓不到，未來這個法修過，可以怎麼處理？你解釋一下。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，這個法修過之後，第一項，關於這些移工卡，現在他們人在臺灣是還好，他們可能怕會被抓，問題是他們回去之後……"],["王委員美惠：我現在擔心的是，譬如他們一個禮拜後要回去，他們在這個禮拜申請，等你們要開始處理時，這些人都回去了，這才是問題啦！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們現在在本條例第二十條規定，電信業者要定期針對這些外勞移工檢查相關的資料庫，這個人如果離境了，這個電話號碼就要隨時停掉。"],["王委員美惠：主秘，我在這裡提供你一些意見，你再把相關計畫給我。到目前為止，我昨天為了今天要質詢你們，我跑了3間通訊行，他們都還是一樣在賣這種東西，實在有夠惡劣的，3間通訊行都還在賣這種東西，所以說實在的，你們要合作啊！警察會不知道有哪個通訊行在賣這個嗎？所以你們要處理好、計畫好，不要再讓百姓受災了！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["王委員美惠：不然修這個法都沒用啦！以上。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員的質詢。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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當然阿沒犯罪他就是沒犯罪像我如果你說的說"},{"start":188.044,"end":194.569,"text":"四、五個一個人說他是他還什麼黃天勳自己的,我也很想要抓下去,不過我看四、五個應該是假的吧。是,就是還沒有犯罪,這個偉貌、身份這些事情是由我們速發部來處理。"},{"start":203.596,"end":203.837,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":221.219,"end":222.421,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":236.778,"end":254.051,"text":"知的,所以我們需要這個法案,因為我們現在要求META跟LINE它下架,對嘛,現在大家就是要有這個法,要有法律官員去找資料說12點前後就可以下架,我們是希望它在一個小時或者30分鐘之內就馬上給我們下架,對啦,這這樣順海會減輕啦,是。"},{"start":258.394,"end":268.282,"text":"再來,在你剛才解說的那樣,本身委員回到,很多負責,說實在,這檔責說實在,非常重要的。一般的負責,大大小負責,都不去回到,他也不回到,他的創民大會也會去回到。所以來,署長,你認為負責和165之後,全香港發生了,要怎麼處理?可以負責怎麼協助?"},{"start":286.981,"end":303.221,"text":"我認為這個法規,就是現在剛才說的丸頭接濟廣告來被騙的這種機率嘛。但是如果沒有賭得很好的,有一些人就是"},{"start":304.042,"end":304.202,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":334.363,"end":334.383,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":350.481,"end":359.203,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":376.237,"end":391.868,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":395.291,"end":402.216,"text":"主秘來,主秘,在這裏本事要跟你說的就是說,我們的電信業者都有要買信卡嘛,這等久以來,都是外流的、輕版版的買賣,跟賣給台灣人的詐騙集團,說實在,我看那個通信業者,有夠沒良心的。"},{"start":423.449,"end":425.791,"text":"這要怎麼處理?我覺得你們上司也知道,他們都叫這些外國人去買賣,來給我們所有人的使用,像安倍主也這樣,騙說我主怎麼不理會大姐的電話事件。"},{"start":439.378,"end":439.858,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":463.593,"end":469.415,"text":"您開始處理的選擇的人都回來了,這才是問題啦。我們現在在那個條例的第20條,我們規定說,電信業家要定期,要對這些外流的移工啦,要定期要去檢查你的資料庫,這個人如果離境了,隨時這個電話號碼你就要停掉。主委,我在這裡,如果你提供意見,跟你的介入的理解給我,"},{"start":490.8,"end":491.762,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":501.799,"end":505.26,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件 。"}]}},{"id":"153594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98e37dbb79de07f4c3155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee6238a00a7960d69f615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:10:41 - 10:17:13","影片長度":"00:06:32","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:10:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:17:13+08:00","duration":392,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時10分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃委員建賓：以及署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好。部長，我們今天審查打詐專法，這是一個非常、非常重要的立法。工欲善其事必先利其器，一部好的法律也需要人來執行，當然，這是一定的，對不對？我想警察全體配合是非常、非常重要的，所以我想要請教一下警政署署長人力的問題。署長，上次部長在報告的時候有提到，為了要確保關鍵基礎設施的安全，未來保二總隊要擴編，對吧？"],["張署長榮興：對，要擴編。"],["黃委員建賓：這是為了保護我們的基礎設施安全。請問什麼是「基礎設施」？"],["張署長榮興：包括油、水、電這些場所，跟國家重大發展的場所，就是我們的關鍵基礎設施。"],["黃委員建賓：所以未來包括像台積電這些高科技產業，我們也有可能要去保護他們，對不對？難道不是這樣？"],["張署長榮興：這個目前還沒有。"],["黃委員建賓：未來有沒有可能？"],["張署長榮興：未來我們研議看看，我們現在的關鍵基礎設施都是屬於公家單位的關鍵基礎設施。"],["黃委員建賓：OK。我想跟署長講，我們這次的擴編不是為了打詐，也不是為了資安，是要去保護這些基礎設施。"],["張署長榮興：是，基礎設施。"],["黃委員建賓：對於這些基礎設施，將來擴編以後，他們可能要分批接受軍事訓練……"],["張署長榮興：是，分批。"],["黃委員建賓：可能要配備重機槍、手榴彈、刺針飛彈，這些東西跟以往我們認知在警專、警大的受訓完全不一樣，這等於是第二陸軍的規格了。"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，這是安全維護的方式而已，跟軍事訓練是不一樣的。這也是一個安全維護的措施。"],["黃委員建賓：是一種安全措施？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["黃委員建賓：但是跟以往我們警察所受的訓練完全不同欵。"],["張署長榮興：應該是……"],["黃委員建賓：這等於是陸軍的規格了，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：應該是雷同，就是跟我們警察受訓應該差不多。"],["黃委員建賓：好，沒關係，本席會持續關注保二的議題。我們回到打詐專法，為什麼會提到這一塊？現在我們警力的工作量已經這麼多了，未來在打詐專法配合下去之後，警力會不會吃緊？特別是第五十六條檢舉獎勵制度的部分，這個部分未來會不會造成基層警員的負擔？未來有沒有專屬的人力去做這一塊，這個是不是也要來探討一下？"],["張署長榮興：我覺得檢舉是一個很好的制度，也就是說……"],["黃委員建賓：是很好的制度，署長。"],["張署長榮興：在還沒有發生詐欺之前，有人提出檢舉……"],["黃委員建賓：有沒有可能像交通事件一樣，檢舉達人變多之後，案件也會變多？這是不是未來也要考慮的？"],["張署長榮興：我們會去做查證及過濾，未來會有一套子法的細則規定，我們會好好研究。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝署長。本席也是很支持，但是也希望不要因為這樣而造成基層警力的吃緊。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["黃委員建賓：另外，關於打詐專法這一塊，目前國內執法單位常常使用的封網方式是透過一個機制，將DNS予以不解析，使一般的網路使用者無法接取相關的網頁，就是俗稱封網的其中一個方式。我想最受公民組織詬病的就是緊急事件處理RPZ1.5號稱在半天之內就可以將可疑網站封鎖，它可以繞過司法公正檢核程序的高速公路，這兩年也被廣泛地使用，對不對？它看似便捷，不過也發生過很多次誤封的烏龍事件，像今年4月廣受使用的WordPress網站建置平臺就發生被烏龍封鎖事件，造成很多網站都被停止解析，事實上我們在去年（2023年）「自由之家」網路自由度的評比時，就因為這樣的機制被扣分。次長，就你知道的情況，我們政府有沒有全盤地檢討這樣的封網機制？"],["林次長宜敬：這個主要是在我們草案的第四十二條，關於網路限制接取及停止解析的部分，目前要有三個條件：第一個條件是必須涉及詐欺犯罪，就是對於人民一般的言論自由，我們是不會去干涉的，除非當涉及詐欺犯罪；第二個條件是必須有即時性、緊急性，就是看起來如果不馬上處理的話，會造成更大的災害；第三個條件是必須經過目的事業主管機關及司法警察機關的認定，認為有緊急處置之必要時，我們才會進行這樣的工作。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝說明，本席會問這個，就是因為我會擔憂未來會不會因為第四十二條的關係，有大量的民眾去檢舉某一個政治人物的平臺，像Threads，會不會因為這樣的關係而被下架？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，應該不會。"],["黃委員建賓：我會提到這個事情，是因為接下來未來選舉的時候，很容易被拿來操作，這個也是要預防的事情，對不對？"],["林次長宜敬：是，報告委員，如果有人檢舉政治人物，因為這不涉及詐欺，第一個條件就不成立了。"],["黃委員建賓：就不會有了？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["黃委員建賓：本席希望內政部及相關機關能夠多多聽聽民團的建議。我想打詐是我們共同的目標，我們希望讓打詐專法能夠順利立法之外，人權的保障也不要被忽視。我想打詐是大家、朝野的共識，一定要讓它消滅的東西，在這裡也要期許不管是警政署的人力上或是相關單位能夠多多地考慮，然後聽聽看民團的意見，特別是署長在警力的部分真的要好好檢討，不要再造成基層警員的負擔。"],["張署長榮興：是，一定會全力配合。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝署長、謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：好，謝謝黃建賓委員的質詢。","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.13221875,"end":2.1234687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":2.9672187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.549093750000001,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.117843750000002,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.130343750000002,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":18.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.605968750000002,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.715343750000002,"end":23.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.195968750000002,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.402218750000003,"end":28.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.27971875,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.924093750000004,"end":36.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.75096875,"end":52.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.82534375,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.15346875,"end":60.477218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.02221875,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.679718750000006,"end":63.953468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.07159375,"end":66.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.35409375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.97346875000001,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.00721875,"end":71.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.15034375,"end":74.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.31034375,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.62596875,"end":81.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.56659375000001,"end":90.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.43471875,"end":90.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.36284375000001,"end":101.07846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.79221875,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.16284375000001,"end":108.04784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.32659375,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.04784375000001,"end":113.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.98784375000001,"end":119.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.78909375,"end":117.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.47221875000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.02909375,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.41721875,"end":120.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.06221875000001,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.90596875000001,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.17159375000001,"end":126.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.40784375000001,"end":126.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.59346875000001,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.79096875000002,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.21284375000002,"end":132.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.22971875000002,"end":135.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.89159375,"end":137.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.11909375000002,"end":139.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.43534375000002,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.26096875000002,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.26284375,"end":164.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.15721875,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.28721875000002,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.01221875000002,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.83471875,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.02346875,"end":192.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.68534375000002,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.25409375,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.71784375000001,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.19534375,"end":217.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.00534375,"end":218.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.84909375,"end":229.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.53096875000003,"end":249.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":250.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.45596875,"end":254.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.91096875000002,"end":256.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.81784375,"end":257.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.94846875,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.30159375,"end":312.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.43346875000003,"end":313.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜與以往我們警察署所授勳的完全不同,這點是附近的規格嗎?」審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜與以往我們警察署所授勳的完全不同,這點是附近的規格嗎?」審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐"},{"start":148.568,"end":152.371,"text":"檢舉獎勵制度,這部份未來會否是責任?也會責任我們基站、我們這間院會負擔?因為我們未來是不是有多專屬的人力去做這一塊?這個是不是也要來?"},{"start":165.59,"end":170.513,"text":"檢舉檢舉我覺得是一個很老的一個字,也就是說在要不要發生這個詐欺的進展,有人會提出檢舉檢舉檢舉"},{"start":180.1,"end":180.741,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":195.257,"end":216.053,"text":"本席也是很支持但是也希望不要因為這樣造成我們基深警力的吃緊另外我們提到就是說達到專法這一塊目前我們國內執法會常常使用的封網方式是透過一個機制將DNS予以不解析使一般的網路使用者無法接取到相關的網頁這就是俗稱的封網的一個其中的方式"},{"start":219.772,"end":234.566,"text":"最受公允組織詬弊的緊急事件RPZ1.5 號稱可以在半天之內將可疑網站封鎖,可以繞過司法公正檢核程序的高速公路,這兩年也被廣泛使用。"},{"start":235.527,"end":254.256,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件事宜、詐欺犯罪"},{"start":267.766,"end":289.297,"text":"這個主要是在我們法案的這個草案的第42條那我們在這邊關於那個網路那個限制接取還有那個停止解析的這個部分那我們目前是要有三個條件第一個條件就是說他必須涉及詐欺犯罪就是一般人民一般的言論自由這個是我們是不會去干涉的就是"},{"start":290.458,"end":312.575,"text":"當涉及詐欺犯罪那第二個條件呢是他這個必須有一個即時性就是有一個緊急性就是說看起來我們不馬上處理的話會造成更大的災害那第三個條件呢他是必須經過目的事業主管機關以及司法警察機關的認定他認為說他有這個緊急處置之必要時我們才會進行這樣的工作"},{"start":314.82,"end":339.014,"text":"謝謝說明,問這個就是說,其實我會擔憂的是說,未來會不會因為這個42條的關係,有大量的民眾去檢舉某一個政治人物的平台,像Trader,那他會不會因為這樣的關係而下架?這個事情會提到是因為接下來未來選舉的時候,這個很容易被拿來做操作,這個是要預防的事情嘛對不對?"},{"start":339.767,"end":361.59,"text":"是,包委員,因為如果說有人是檢舉那個政治人物的話,因為這個不涉及詐欺的話,這個第一條件他就不成立了。他本以希望是內政部相關機關能夠多多聽聽民團的建議。那我想打詐是我們共同的目標,我們希望讓打詐專法能夠順利立法之外,我們人權的保障也不要被忽視啦。"},{"start":362.771,"end":382.407,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜,請審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜,請審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜,請審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜,請審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜,請審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐"}]}},{"id":"153593","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153593","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9886008eb005e1ab8d155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62e36a7e1fe41ef3ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:02:31 - 10:10:28","影片長度":"00:07:57","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:02:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:10:28+08:00","duration":477,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時2分）謝謝主席，有請數發部。"],["主席：請政次。"],["麥委員玉珍：次長好。我相信針對詐騙議題全國的人都在關心，因為詐騙，現在很多陌生電話大家都不敢接，只要是沒有輸入名字的電話都一樣。我相信臺灣有用智慧手機的用戶都應該接到很多詐騙的簡訊，甚至有人每天都會接到兩到三通的簡訊，其中有八成是說要繳水電費、保險費、牌照稅等等，5月份簡直就是接不完，結果點進去才發現是被騙了。目前數發部宣傳有「gov.tw」的才是政府單位的網站，呼籲民眾先認明就能識別是否為政府的網站，另外再推出111政府專屬簡訊的號碼，減少誤連詐騙及釣網的風險，但還是出現詐騙網址有gov.tw的狀況；另外，銀行及許多經常出現詐騙案的機關也都沒有使用111簡訊的系統，所以不僅宣傳防詐不成，還誤導民眾受騙，請問數發部未來如何改善這個部分，才能防範詐騙集團冒用這兩者來詐騙民眾？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，關於短碼的部分，自從數發部推出以後，現在分兩部分進行，一方面是集體的採購，希望有更多的部門使用這個短碼來發簡訊。基本上，在我們打詐的概念上面，一個是所謂白名單的概念，另外一個是黑名單的概念，黑名單就是我們要想辦法去遏止那些假的訊息，白名單就是讓一般民眾知道來自於什麼樣的訊息是可以相信的，我們就是希望以後所有的民眾看到他所收到的簡訊如果是111開始的，那應該就是從政府來的。剛才委員提到111這種短碼的簡訊有沒有可能被偽造？在技術上來講，的確有一種可能會被偽造，就是說如果詐騙業者他私自裝設假的基地臺的話，那麼這個假的基地臺真的就可以攔截這種簡訊，然後把那個簡訊換掉。針對這個部分，目前是由通傳會北區、中區、南區的監理所定期的到處去巡邏、去掃描，這個機會不大，因為所有這些111的簡訊……事實上像我們收到簡訊，譬如委員如果你傳給我的話，事實上這個簡訊不是直接從你那邊傳到我這邊，而是會經過一個機房，像是中華電信的機房，對於111這種簡訊防止被人家劫持的方式，我們是在幾個大電信公司的機房裡面去做攔截，所以一般來講，詐騙集團要假冒111這種簡訊的機會其實不是很大。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝，所以我們是有一些安全的措施，對於民眾比較有保障。還有就是現在問了我們才知道，很多民眾也才聽到，所以希望這個要多宣傳，才能讓更多人不會受騙，大家才不會收到很多簡訊就很恐慌。","再來是針對個資外洩的部分，這對民眾的傷害非常大，以前我們是用紙本，紙本的話就比較不會有這個問題，但是現在是數位時代，隨便按一個鍵盤就會有好幾千個名單流出去，這樣子的話，詐騙集團就拿去用，後續就造成社會成本難以計算。但是針對蝦皮及誠品個資外洩的案件，一開始說以輔導為主，但是拖了很久才開罰，而且現在開罰罰得很少，只是20萬、10萬，對大型的電商平臺來說不痛不癢，變成他們只有繳保護費而已，所以罰款罰得那麼少，這樣能去改善嗎？要怎麼樣讓企業有足夠誘因及採取嚴謹的個資措施？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，關於個資外洩的問題，基本上我們從三方面來加強：第一個方法是加強相關技術的研發，像數發部的資安院就有相關技術的研發；第二個是加強稽核、加強檢查；第三個是我們希望在臺灣建立一個健全的資安產業，民間事業的資安及個資的防護基本上不是直接能由政府來處理，因為數量太大，我們還是希望民間的業者能藉由民間的資安業者協助他們，如果……"],["麥委員玉珍：是，我們知道，但是我要問一下次長，你們罰最高是多少錢？"],["林次長宜敬：請署長來回答。"],["呂署長正華：跟委員報告，蝦皮這個個案是在個資法修法之前，所以我們罰20萬已經是舊法時候的最高，它是2萬罰到20萬。"],["麥委員玉珍：是的。"],["呂署長正華：去年打詐五法修正之後，這個20萬就往上提升了，而且還可以累次罰，只要有個資外洩情形就可以處理。所以電商的部分在去年打詐五法之後，以及我們加強剛剛次長所說的項目之後，其實這些在10月之後就已經不再是165裡頭的高風險賣場。所以我們有積極在做推動，舊法的部分因為依法行政，還是20萬，後面的部分就以新法去做處理，我們會努力推動打詐各項措施。以上補充，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝署長。給我1分鐘，因為我這邊有在處理的個案。就像剛才你說的那個專線，民眾打進去專線說自己被騙了，你們說你們來處理，如果民眾沒有受騙，只是雙方用簡訊聯絡而已，還有郵局轉帳證明，民眾也提供了，但是因為還沒有被騙，所以你們還沒有辦法處理，或是當民眾把錢轉出去要追蹤的時候，你們又說這筆錢轉到國外，因此無法追蹤，所以我們覺得這個專線好像沒什麼效用。我們希望真正的幫助不是抓了多少人，而是追回了多少錢，這樣對民眾才是真正的幫助，這是我們希望及要求的。"],["林次長宜敬：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.840343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.64596875,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.67096875,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.953468750000003,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.084093750000001,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.708468750000002,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.42221875,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.570343750000006,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.71659375,"end":68.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.23659375000001,"end":88.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.51971875000001,"end":128.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.39659375000001,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.97284375,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.14534375,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.12346875,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.82409375,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.15721875,"end":164.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.53284375,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.57409375,"end":312.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.94471875000002,"end":228.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.00221875000003,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.02971875000003,"end":251.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.55471875,"end":293.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.47159375,"end":318.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.98534375,"end":322.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.79909375,"end":326.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.47784375000003,"end":327.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.77721875000003,"end":335.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.50596875,"end":355.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.41846875000005,"end":361.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.32034375,"end":364.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.34534375000004,"end":368.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.75034375,"end":364.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.18909375000004,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.53034375000004,"end":413.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.29284375000003,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.14784375000005,"end":441.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.51471875000004,"end":450.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.16721875,"end":452.70284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.98971875,"end":472.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.40846875000005,"end":476.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.11721875,"end":476.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.61034375,"end":478.52159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.53,"end":10.105,"text":"謝謝主席。有請書發部。書發部。政治。來,政治。是。"},{"start":11.942,"end":32.576,"text":"市長好,我相信詐騙的議題全國的人都在關心因為現在詐騙的電話很多的陌生的電話大家都不敢接只要沒有輸入那個名字再來我相信說台灣有用智慧手機的用戶都應該接到很多的詐騙的簡訊"},{"start":34.557,"end":37.741,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":49.657,"end":57.564,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件。 〔二〕審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件。 〔二〕審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件。"},{"start":72.177,"end":79.759,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":97.162,"end":98.283,"text":"不僅是宣傳防詐不成還誤導民眾受騙請問我們副發部的未來如何改善這個部分還能防範就是詐騙集團冒用這兩個來去詐騙我們民眾"},{"start":112.537,"end":112.577,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":130.862,"end":156.499,"text":"短碼來發簡訊這個基本上在我們打詐的概念上面就是一個是那個所謂白名單的概念另外一個是黑名單的概念黑名單就是我們要想辦法去遏止那些假的訊息那白名單呢就是讓一般的民眾知道說來自於什麼樣的訊息是可以相信的那我們就是希望以後所有的民眾看到說如果你收到的簡訊是111開始的那應該就是從政府來的"},{"start":157.259,"end":184.254,"text":"那剛才委員有提到就是說這個一的這種這種短碼的簡訊有沒有可能被偽造那在技術上來講的確是有那一種可能被偽造就是說如果詐騙業者他是私自裝設那個假的基地台的話那這個假的基地台他就真的是可以攔截這種簡訊然後把那個簡訊換掉但是這個部分呢現在目前是由通傳會的北區中區還有南區的"},{"start":187.215,"end":187.235,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":217.595,"end":239.805,"text":"要那個詐騙集團要假冒這種一一一或這種簡訊的機會其實不是很大好謝謝我們是有一些安全的措施對我們民眾比較有保障還有說你要這個因為現在問我們才知道很多民眾才聽到但是說希望這個要多宣傳才讓更多人說不會受騙"},{"start":240.905,"end":243.807,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲罰案件、懲�"},{"start":268.824,"end":273.166,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":298.454,"end":318.089,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查"},{"start":328.176,"end":355.134,"text":"蘇發部的那個資安院我們這邊就有相關技術的研發第二個是加強集合加強那個檢查那第三個呢是我們希望建立一個健全的台灣在台灣建立一個健全的資安產業因為這個民間的事業的資安還有這個各自的防護基本上不是直接由政府能由政府來處理因為數量太大那我們還是希望說民間的業者能藉由民間的資安業者來協助他們"},{"start":355.694,"end":383.612,"text":"是是我們我們知道但是說我們我要問一下我們次長我們罰最高是多少錢是請我們署長說明跟委員報告吼那因為在蝦皮這個個案是在個資法修法之前所以我們20萬已經是舊法的時候的最高是他是2萬罰到20萬是的對那去年打造無法修正之後這個20萬就往上提升了而且還可以累次罰"},{"start":384.232,"end":384.973,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":413.191,"end":425.556,"text":"好謝謝我們的署長給我一分鐘我我因為我這邊我在處理的個案所以就像這樣子剛才你有說那個專線專線你打進去說你被騙了我來處理沒有被騙了你只是雙方"},{"start":432.459,"end":432.479,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":451.206,"end":455.009,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員"}]}},{"id":"153592","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153592","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c982e8382466ff5143f155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62f1f56eb5c34a23a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:54:23 - 10:02:19","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T09:54:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:02:19+08:00","duration":476,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時54分）謝謝主席，有請部長跟通傳委員會（NCC）主秘。"],["主席：有請黃主秘。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，部長早安。今天要請教的一樣是針對詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，討論其中一個條文的問題，當然也是大家很關心的問題，就是目前詐騙集團大部分都是買國外的SIM卡或黑莓卡，不一定要做實名制登記，然後常常拿著這個卡，進來用漫遊的機制來做詐騙，對不對？這是一個重點打擊。我看到法條裡面有寫，針對所謂的高風險國外電信事業要做列管這樣一個工作，我第一個問題，如何來認定這個事業是高風險的電信事業？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，目前在國際漫遊卡這個部分，因為它是一個國際漫遊商務契約，所以在運作上面，其實在我們國內，就好像我們去國外一樣，像我們買國外的漫遊卡大概default是開的啦！所以您的意見我知道，就高風險部分，目前原則上我們已經跟兩百多個業者大概都有簽署這樣的國際漫遊協議，來到我們國內有這個漫遊協議的，我們都會都會自動提供。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，現在就自動開放嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：但是高風險這一塊……"],["牛委員煦庭：什麼是高風險？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是因為近期我們有發現，就是少部分的地區，它所提供的漫遊服務，跟他們國內的預付卡服務，與他們國內的實名制的機制不一樣，而且……"],["牛委員煦庭：就是管理相對鬆散，然後你不太好溯源，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：就叫高風險，對不對？這樣子的業者，大概占全部業者的比例是多少？你們有算過嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：因為大部分的國家，其實不一定都有實名制。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：但是拿來做犯罪的，其實在我們165這邊的統計上面，因為它慢慢地會增加，根據民眾的報案以及165所給我們的這些情資，將來因為在條文裡面有授權，我們會跟內政部共同就高風險的認定，訂定一個標準之後會公告，目前情資上大概是有兩個，一個地區、一個國家，它是比較屬於高風險。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以相對來說，數量是少的嘛，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：這部分它會有發行我們俗稱黑莓卡這樣的一個預付卡，這一個地區跟一個國家，其實不多。"],["牛委員煦庭：接近個案嘛！"],["黃主任秘書文哲：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然是這樣，影響範圍如果不大的話，我就認為法條的標準跟管控有加嚴的必要。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：針對這一塊，將來我們的標準跟內政部討論過後，我們會公告，讓我們的業者也可以跟國外的業者……就是他們要發行易付卡的時候，麻煩他們要做好這些……"],["牛委員煦庭：你先聽我把問題講完好不好？我們的草案針對外國高風險電信事業提供的漫遊服務，現在要加入所謂的入境檢查，也就是說，你要有入境紀錄，我才能認可是你這個人要使用這個漫遊，而不是拿來做詐騙之用，對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們現在法條裡面寫的管控機制叫輸入護照號碼，我接下來要問的問題是，只寫護照號碼會不會有依然被冒充的問題？既然這一群人是職業的犯罪集團，你只用護照號碼做管控，我認為是不夠的，比如網路上論壇辦會員，現在都有身分證字號產生器對不對，你會不會隨便一搞，然後一填進去，它是預設開放，還是我要審核過後才開放？你們現在機制的設計是怎麼樣？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，應該這麼說，現在拿來作為犯罪的這些電信服務，他其實是用量來掩蓋他的犯行，所以我們現在所處理的就是儘量把他的量減少。我不否認冒名這件事情很難完全杜絕，但是用冒名作為犯罪的這種方式，我們儘量把它減少掉。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在擔心的是，比如我剛剛講的身分證字號產生器，他搞不好是用大量生成的方式，反而造成你執法的困擾，如果高風險電信事業的數量不多，你乾脆就做臨櫃查核。我的主張是你乾脆就做臨櫃查核，對不對？因為既然只有這一家特殊的漫遊卡，那你就請這一家來跟國內介接的電信事業做實名制查核，這樣絕對可以把量降下來我，我這樣的說法你同意嗎？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：在實務上不太容易執行，原因是因為他不是只有一門、兩門，他是非常多的數量，而且拿來做犯罪的並不是大多數人，而是極少數人，如果我們用極少數人的犯罪行為來造成國外旅客以及臺胞的不方便，我覺得在實務上可能要想一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我剛剛第一個問題問你的就是被列為高風險電信事業是多數還少數？你現在講的是只有一家或兩家對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：是，雖然只有一家或兩家，但是他的數量很多。"],["牛委員煦庭：你做合理的揭示就好了嘛！也就是說，來臺灣的旅客應該要使用有實名制系統的漫遊服務就不會受到影響，這樣是不是把旅客的影響降到最低？相對來講，對於想要鑽漏洞的人，是不是門關得比較緊？對不對？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我覺得應該要在兩個之間去做平衡，假設我用我的方法能夠有效防堵的話，那就不需要用造成大家都不方便的方法來防堵。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，這在法條討論的時候我們會再請你好好說明，第一個，這個比例到底是多少？會影響到多少人？如果這個比例是低的、影響的人不多，那你管控的標準就高嘛，你就讓他實名制辦理，這樣會好過你單純用護照號碼去處理，因為用護照號碼他搞不好用別的技術破解掉。"],["黃主任秘書文哲：我們在技術上再跟委員報告，看看到底哪一個方法可以達成。"],["牛委員煦庭：待會兒我們就法條來做一下討論，這是第一個問題，謝謝NCC。","再請一下警政署署長，再一分鐘就好。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝署長、謝謝部長，部長也要來一下，雖然剛剛是比較技術的問題，但這一題跟你比較有關係。我們現在講說我們要設立一套法律去打擊詐欺犯罪，但是誰執行打詐？就是警察嘛，對不對？我現在很擔心的是刑事警察，我最近跟一些基層的刑事警察好朋友去做了座談，他們說去年天下雜誌也刊登過一篇報導，寫到第一線刑警的心聲是，現在每天泡在垃圾詐騙案裡面，麻痺到只想結案，當然這就是我們要修訂打詐四法的初衷，這我同意，但是我希望在修訂法律的初衷當中，我也要求內政部、要求警政署，針對辛苦的刑警，我們應該給予適合的溫暖，現在全臺的刑警缺額有300位，我們認為問題出在敘獎制度的不合理，什麼叫敘獎制度的不合理？刑警只有辦刑案才能夠記功嘉獎，比如秘密刑警已經十個月埋伏，破獲雲林製毒工廠，瓦解毒品供應網，這麼大一件事情大功一支對不對？可是一般的員警臨檢抓到四件酒駕是十支嘉獎，比大功的敘獎點數還多，所以我希望除了有機會給刑警多一點溫暖跟加給之外，針對敘獎制度，我希望內政部和警政署加以研究跟改善，也給這些偵辦刑事案件的刑警多一些溫暖，鼓勵基層在打擊詐騙的這一群警察，給他們多一點溫暖可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以，我們會回去做……"],["牛委員煦庭：敘獎制度的檢討啦！大概多少時間之內可以提出一個方案？"],["張署長榮興：三個月好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：三個月會不會太久了？只是敘獎制度這件事而已耶！如果三個月之內你要給加給的話，那麼三個月就可以。"],["張署長榮興：一個月好了。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個月好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好，一個月。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就請在一個月之內，針對刑警的敘獎制度提出改善方案，給他們一點溫暖，同時也改善刑警缺額的問題可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：好，可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，部長及署長辛苦了，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員，接下來請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.09721875,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.329093750000002,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.58159375,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.559718750000002,"end":19.234718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.875968750000002,"end":51.314093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.56721875,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.76909375,"end":55.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.78596875,"end":56.393468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.28784375,"end":59.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.32534375,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.15971875000001,"end":70.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.90596875,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.75784375,"end":75.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.47909375,"end":79.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.73159375,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.58346875000001,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.93284375,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.05909375,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.92284375000001,"end":99.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.77909375,"end":102.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.24284375,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.56721875000001,"end":106.56284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.84971875000001,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.04784375000001,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":118.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.35971875000001,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.27846875,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.06909375,"end":136.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.43159375000002,"end":138.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.82784375,"end":139.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.70534375,"end":143.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.33346875,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.73346875000001,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.45471875,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.79596875000001,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.58409375000002,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.54596875000001,"end":168.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.19034375,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.15096875,"end":177.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.34909375,"end":182.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.13346875000002,"end":218.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.55721875,"end":196.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.37096875,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.41034375,"end":219.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.73096875000002,"end":223.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.83596875,"end":223.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.74284375000002,"end":223.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.97909375,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.01284375,"end":225.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.37534375,"end":228.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.14284375000003,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.47159375,"end":235.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.62284375000002,"end":237.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.66471875000002,"end":239.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.77409375000002,"end":240.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.05659375000002,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.81159375000001,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.99284375000002,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.27909375000002,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.34971875000002,"end":255.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.73346875000004,"end":259.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.71159375,"end":261.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.07409375000003,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.93284375,"end":277.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.87784375,"end":286.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.17596875000004,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.96409375,"end":315.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.91221875,"end":303.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.62721875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text":"審判刑事案件的刑警多一些溫暖,鼓勵這些基層在打擊詐騙的這一群警察,給他們多一點溫暖,可以嗎?可以。我們會回去做這個...續講制度的檢討,大概多少時間之內可以提出一個方案?上個月好不好?"},{"start":457.475,"end":472.85,"text":"三個月短,三個月會不會太久了?只是續獎制度這件事而已。還是你三個月你要給加急的話,那三個月。一個月好了,一個月。一個月,好不好。那一個月之內,針對刑警的續獎制度,提出一件改善方案,給他們一點溫暖,也改善刑警缺的問題,可以嗎?好,可以。好,謝謝。部長、組長辛苦了,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153591","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153591","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98390286f9759ad703155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee62eb4615479df0829c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:47:19 - 09:54:11","影片長度":"00:06:52","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T09:47:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T09:54:11+08:00","duration":412,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時47分）部長，這一次我們要修打詐四法，就是要杜絕詐騙，我想請問一下，這一次的打詐，我們邀集了大概五個跨部會，我們跨部會如何能夠順暢的去協調、去運作？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的垂詢，我們現在推出所謂的打詐四法，以內政部所主導是詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，但是還有包括洗錢防制法，還有科偵法，還有通訊保障監察法，一定要這四個法同時連動，而且把裡面的法條各個環環相扣，全部都扣上去，才能夠解決我們剛剛各位委員所垂詢的，碰到所謂各種不同樣態、新的詐欺犯罪的防制。"],["張委員宏陸：好，我先請問，這次裡面有寫到一定規模的網路廣告平臺業者在臺須設立代理人，並配合防詐義務，違者最高可罰2,500萬，如果情節嚴重會被封網。一定規模，是什麼樣的規模才叫一定規模？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，目前關於一定規模，首先我們會參考歐盟的作法，以人口的10%作為標準，如果一個網路廣告平臺的活躍使用者數目超過10%，歐盟那邊就會開始做控管。但是因為臺灣的人口數比較少，經濟規模也比較小，所以10%我們初步的研判可能是稍微高了一點，我們會在這個地方再訂定出相關的規則，基本上後續等到這部法案通過以後，我們會規定。"],["張委員宏陸：你這樣講讓人家很不放心耶！你直接講一個數數字讓大家瞭解啊！"],["林次長宜敬：OK，以臺灣是2,300萬人的話，人口的10%就是230萬，依照……"],["張委員宏陸：不是啊，剛剛已經說10%你認為太高了啊，你心裡合理的數字是多少？"],["林次長宜敬：抱歉，可以請我們署長代為說明嗎？"],["呂署長正華：謝謝委員讓我們有說明的機會，初步現在是參考歐盟的10%，因為這個法在第二十七條之後會授權……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，你回答我的重點就好了，我沒那麼多時間。"],["呂署長正華：大概就10%上下，但是這個法通過之後，因為6個月內要修子法，它是授權辦法，所以在這一段時間會把它合適的數值確認出來，目前就是先用10%當benchmark，以上補充，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，10%是230萬，都已經……你不覺得這個速度有點慢了嗎，對不對？不是我感覺慢，我認為你這個230萬要全臺灣人都可以接受，我真的不相信，我真的不相信。我為什麼特別問這個你知道嗎？現在的詐騙，打電話的越來越少了，幾乎都是網路比較多，我們如何從一開頭就把它遏止，我相信這是民眾想要的，等到他被騙了，然後再去報案，我覺得那太晚了，應該是把所有有可能的從源頭遏止，是不是？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！是的話，你看你剛剛說的10%，這樣子你們覺得有沒有太離譜了一點？民眾可以接受嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，因為現在網路的生態，一家網路廣告平臺，它如果開始做起來的話，其實很快就會超過人口10%，像是Meta、像是Google、像是LINE，其實它的活躍會員數早就超過10%了。所以雖然10%看起來好像有點太高，但是現在主要民眾會接觸到的這些網路廣告平臺，其實都已經超過這個數字，這是我們的瞭解。"],["張委員宏陸：是啦！你這樣子反而……我剛剛講了一個重點，你如果發現這根本可能是詐騙了，就應該第一時間把它遏止了，是不是？我們的目標是這樣啊，對不對？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["張委員宏陸：結果你還讓它有成長的機會，我覺得這一點不要說我聽不下去，全臺灣的民眾也不會支持吧？"],["林次長宜敬：是，瞭解委員的意思。其實現在對臺灣政府來講，事實上最難管理的是一些跨國的網路平臺，因為跨國網路平臺，我們比較難去處罰他們。所以……"],["張委員宏陸：我知道啦，所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題，你要跟民眾講我們打詐四法要怎樣，結果你現在的回答又讓人家覺得好像很困難，我覺得看不出來政府的決心，我完全看不出來政府的決心。將近一半的民眾民調顯示對詐騙是非常深惡痛絕，而我們政府在這個情況下的打詐四法，在其他很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下，我覺得這一點你應該要把它補起來，不然我跟你講，如果內政部要等到人家報案才可以處理的話，他都已經被騙了，這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦！反正等下還會討論法條，我覺得這一點你們要想一想如何去處理啦！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們政府是相當有決心啦！但是在法條上面如果有檢討改進的空間，我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進。因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話，永遠沒有辦法往打擊犯罪上來著手，而很多牽涉到的法令不同，如果以目前民意來講，願意支持打詐四法趕快通過，讓它可以先上路，其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步。"],["張委員宏陸：我當然知道，但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分，我們等下再來討論看要怎麼處理，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員。","我們請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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了解委員的意思那現在其實對我們台灣政府來講最難管理的事實上是一些跨國的網路平台那因為這個跨國網路平台我們沒有比較難去處罰他們所以我知道啦所以我今天就是跟你探討這一個問題"},{"start":322.226,"end":341.457,"text":"你又要跟民眾講說我們打詐釋法要怎樣怎樣結果你現在你今天的現在的回答又讓人家覺得說哇好像很困難啊怎麼樣怎麼樣因為我覺得看不出來政府的決心我完全看不出來政府的決心將近一半的民眾民調顯示出來對這個詐騙是非常痛惡深惡"},{"start":346.178,"end":371.258,"text":"那我們政府在這個情況打詐是法你其他的很多的法令都越趨嚴格的情況之下我覺得這一點啦你應該要把它補起來不然我跟你講啦內政部齁要等到人家報案才可以處理的話我覺得都已經被騙了這個跟民眾的期待有點落差啦我覺得這一點你們應該要齁反正等一下還會討論法條我覺得這一點你們要想想如何去處理啦"},{"start":372.954,"end":397.157,"text":"報告委員我想我們是政府是相當有決心的但是在法條上面的如果有檢討改進的空間的話我們會跟其他的部會一起來檢討改進因為如果我們沒有踏出第一步的話永遠是沒有辦法往這個打擊犯罪的上面著手那很多牽涉到的法令不同如果認為說以目前的民意來講的話願意支持打詐司法趕快通過讓他可以先上路其實這才是我們決心要走的第一步"},{"start":398.478,"end":409.972,"text":"我當然知道啦吼,但我們就明顯看得出來有一些可以再加強的部分,我們等一下再來討論看要怎麼處理啦,好不好。好,謝謝。好,謝謝,感謝張宏祿委員。"}]}},{"id":"153590","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153590","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9857fac457fdbb0fdc155b271690f57e8e11da973c502cee6283b51674c9dbd0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:39:29 - 09:47:03","影片長度":"00:07:34","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T09:39:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T09:47:03+08:00","duration":454,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-22"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時39分）謝謝主席，我儘量控制時間，我們先請劉世芳劉部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我們今天要來處理國人都非常期待的打詐專法，我想先請問部長，你自己有沒有被騙過？"],["劉部長世芳：我的親友有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你的親友有喔？類似像什麼？金額大的小的？"],["劉部長世芳：金額不太大，但是是在社群網路平臺裡面……"],["蘇委員巧慧：社群網路平臺對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大部分是一頁式廣告？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，是屬於在電子支付裡面出的狀況。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那今天這個打詐專法出來以後可以處理嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：可以，但是以往的案例沒辦法，法源通過以後才可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，我想我跟部長一樣，部長，您是部長了，之前發生的時候應該也至少是立法委員嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：像我本身也是立法委員，那你問我我有沒有被騙過？有耶！還被騙過不少次耶！我想說怎麼回事，以我的狀況、社會資歷、才識等等，竟然我也是看著看著一頁式廣告，就還是會按下去，按下去以後，等到寄來的東西跟上面完全不一樣的時候，索討無門啊！然後也有發生過我收到了電話簡訊，告訴我7-Eleven有我的包裹，我心裡想好像沒訂，可是我還是去領了，貨到付款付完了之後，回來一打開，我的老天，我怎麼可能會訂這種東西？回去追查，追查不到啊！部長，你知道我那一次真的非常非常的生氣，我想說我一定要來研究這種詐騙式包裹要怎麼處理，所以第一個，我先上網看了一下大家的經驗談是怎麼處理，部長你猜猜看網站告訴我的處理方式是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚耶！"],["蘇委員巧慧：你沒有經驗嘛！你不清楚，對不對？周局長坐在那裡，周局長，不用上臺沒關係，我只是跟你分享。網站上面的解方叫我打電話給選區的立法委員，通知警政署，叫警政署派警察去抓人。張署長，這就是網路講的啦！遇到詐騙的時候打電話給你的立法委員，我心想我本身就是立法委員耶！所以我那天真的是……你去查應該留有紀錄，我真的打電話給警政署的聯絡人，說我現在接到這個包裹要怎麼辦？","所以部長，我今天想請你用白話文跟社會各界解釋，我們今天如果訂立了這個專法以後，平常民眾遇到的詐騙簡訊、一頁式廣告，甚至是網路上面常常會有這種名人社團邀請你參加投資、炒股，甚至現在最新的黃仁勳社團都已經出來了，有解嗎？第一個，簡訊的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：如果我比較簡單來講，譬如說你碰到一頁式的詐騙……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我想要問你的第一個是簡訊的部分，電話簡訊。"],["劉部長世芳：也一樣，可以先打165來確認，因為會有這些警示的帳號出現。"],["蘇委員巧慧：然後依照現在的新法條，哪幾條可以用到？所以我的問題可以被解決了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：新的法條哪幾條可以用到……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！新的法條啊！我們今天不是要討論立法嗎？所以我要確認的就是過去這一些沒有辦法被解決的問題，因為這部專法的出現之後，可以有解或可以預防了，那這部法我才支持得下去啊！"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教，在我們所提供資訊裡面……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有嗎？簡訊的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：在第十四條到第二十六條。"],["蘇委員巧慧：第十四條的部分嘛！就是我們今天電信防詐措施，第十六條到第二十四條是這個專章的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以呢？有第十四條到第二十六條之後，我們電話簡訊詐騙的部分會怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：我們可以……"],["蘇委員巧慧：國內的話其實本來就可以抓了嘛！那我們今天訂了這個其實就是針對大家一直在說境外的部分嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是可以請我們局長來回答？"],["蘇委員巧慧：可以，請。"],["周局長幼偉：報告委員，如果是境外電話，目前來講我們都有先過濾，這個法律都有特別規定……"],["蘇委員巧慧：第二十條可以切斷？高風險的國際漫遊，我可以直接切斷它，不會再繼續發送？"],["周局長幼偉：對、對、對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果是預防面呢？預防面其實我們也申請很多……怎麼看起來我對這法條已經比你們還要熟悉了？這還有預防面嘛！預防面的話，就申請的部分現在開始，因為現在很多的電信詐騙，我們今天要處理的就是很多都是用電話卡，尤其是預付卡的部分嘛！所以未來我們是不是依照這個法條，申請時就要有實名制？即電話卡的部分。而且如果你轉移這個卡片的話，也要重新核對跟登錄，這是規定在第十五條和第十六條，是不是這樣？所以這是第一個電話簡訊部分，今天新法下去有加嚴嘛！","再來，第二個是剛剛所說到的一頁式廣告網站上面的部分，如果這不是警政署的部分的話，數位部要回答，我也沒有問題。一頁式廣告的部分，在新法訂定之後，有可以討論嗎？有可以加強嗎？我一定要知道可以解決問題，這部法才有存在的價值嘛！可以還是不可以處理？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，關於一頁式廣告目前我們跟……"],["蘇委員巧慧：數位詐騙嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：對，數位詐騙的部分，我們現在遇到的主要有三個問題，有些這種仿冒名人的廣告，舉這個例子來講，我們已經知道他是預備要犯罪，但是他還沒有犯罪，所以……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這就是之前很難找的一部分，他還沒有犯罪嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：對，這時候我們政府如果發現，通知它要下架的時候，它通常動作很慢；再來，因為很多這種網路廣告平臺是跨國的公司，像Meta、Google……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯。"],["林次長宜敬：他們在臺灣就是常常不受理，甚至於還有一些境外的網路廣告公司，它在臺灣根本沒有分公司、沒有代表人……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這次會怎麼樣，有加強嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：對，我們就要求它要落地，就是在臺灣必須要設立法律代表人。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以未來這些人在臺灣都追查得到？"],["林次長宜敬：對，如果它一直不肯配合的話，依照這個法律，我們可以對它施予……"],["蘇委員巧慧：就是我們在第三章的部分，數位經濟防詐措施一整章嘛！我看到你們現在的規範，是從網路平臺業者都要加強落地管理、實名管理，然後去刊登廣告的人也要求他們要提供更多的資訊來供平臺業者審核，甚至連這個人要刊登的單則廣告，都必須要有聯絡的方式可以出現，對不對？是有這些部分嘛！這些都有對不對？"],["林次長宜敬：是，在第二十七條到第三十三條之間的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：第二十七條到第三十三條，我想是這樣，因為真的質詢的時間是有限的，我們等一下會進行逐條，我想法律是死板的、是生硬的，但是我們要處理的是日常人民要解決的問題，所以等一下逐條的時候，我也希望你們就可以像這樣的方式，我遇到了詐騙簡訊，因為這次的修法能不能夠被解決？我遇到了一頁式廣告、社群上面的詐騙廣告，有沒有辦法因為這次專法而解決，是哪幾條？我希望等一下在逐條的時候，都可以用這樣的方式來討論，讓民眾能夠真正理解國家對他們的保障，這樣可以吧？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","我們請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-22","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃珊珊","王美惠","陳亭妃","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","黃建賓","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","張智倫","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","李坤城","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","沈伯洋","黃秀芳","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","李柏毅","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」\n案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案、(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16\n人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案；二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條\n例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條\n條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫\n行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記\n不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自\n然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案、 ( 五) 審查委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具\n「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1135901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.55409375,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.10221875,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.53221875,"end":6.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.810343750000001,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.35409375,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.33596875,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.70284375,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.52971875,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.58846875,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.047843750000002,"end":30.405968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.49034375,"end":33.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.76409375,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.53159375,"end":42.876593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.72971875,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.34096875,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.002218750000004,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.22159375000001,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.60534375,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.38159375000001,"end":107.00159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.69284375000001,"end":117.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.70034375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.23409375,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.17346875,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.02659375000002,"end":179.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.25721875000002,"end":172.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.21846875,"end":177.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.20971875,"end":179.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.49659375000002,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.96909375,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.84221875,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.31596875000002,"end":202.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.97346875000002,"end":215.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.38534375,"end":217.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.32159375,"end":226.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.03784375,"end":226.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.34159375000002,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.52721875,"end":227.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.56096875,"end":227.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.96159375000002,"end":228.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.23159375,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.24846875,"end":228.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.37909375,"end":234.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.05346875,"end":236.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.37784375,"end":244.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.99721875,"end":243.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.27534375000002,"end":245.56221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.22846875000002,"end":253.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.92784375000002,"end":257.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.31971875,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.33596875,"end":322.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.53346875,"end":322.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.24221875,"end":322.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.61346875000004,"end":360.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.64721875000004,"end":322.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.84784375000004,"end":335.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.39659375,"end":362.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.11784375,"end":367.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.35346875000005,"end":368.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.02409375,"end":368.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.98596875000004,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.01971875000004,"end":369.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.89721875000004,"end":371.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.25971875000005,"end":377.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.37284375,"end":377.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.38971875000004,"end":377.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.40659375,"end":407.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.13784375,"end":396.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.18846875,"end":396.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.35534375000003,"e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那這時候呢 我們會政府我們如果發現我們要通知他要下架的時候他通常動作很慢那再來呢 因為很多這種那個網路廣告品牌是跨國的公司像是Meta、像Google 像沒錯那他們在台灣就是說他們常常不受理那甚至還有一些境外的網路廣告公司在台灣根本沒有分公司"},{"start":359.813,"end":360.654,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":377.606,"end":384.416,"text":"這就是我們在第三章的部分數位經濟防詐措施一整章嘛我看到你們現在的規範是從網路平台業者都要加強落地管理實名管理然後去刊登廣告的人"},{"start":392.947,"end":406.943,"text":"也要求他們要提供更多的資訊來供平台業者審核。甚至連這個人要刊登的該則廣告、單則廣告都必須要有聯絡的方式可以出現。對不對?是有這些部分嗎?"},{"start":411.037,"end":431.264,"text":"二十七條到三十三條之間的。我想是這樣因為真的質詢的時間是有限的那我們等一下會進行逐條我想法律是死板的啦是生硬的但是我們要處理的是日常人民要解決的問題所以我應該等一下逐條的時候也會希望你們就可以像這樣的方式我遇到了詐騙簡訊因為這次的修法能不能夠被解決我遇到了一夜市廣告"},{"start":435.385,"end":445.593,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"}]}},{"id":"153589","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153589","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c982629bb021b39aed47e99b63b7a11dbca11da973c502cee6223559d32ff13bc645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:07:06 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譬如說電動車所用的這個半導體那跟這個宇宙衛星所用的半導體是不一樣的台灣可以從這些比較 電動車對 但是我是 電動車的這個設備還是可以的"},{"start":250.87,"end":275.67,"text":"你認為是有機會發展?因為現在面臨的,你有辦法影響匯率嗎?經濟部長有辦法影響匯率嗎?恐怕沒辦法吧?是不是?那日幣也大幅的貶值,韓幣也是。那對於他們機械產業的外銷,那當然就是注意就相當的大嘛。那我們在沒有這樣子的情況下,怎麼樣子提升我們這些機械產業的?"},{"start":277.491,"end":278.332,"text":"那你什麼時候可以定位出來?"},{"start":301.335,"end":305.297,"text":"那你認為就是如果我們往東南亞往印度市場那他們預計可以達到就是說"},{"start":328.087,"end":333.092,"text":"市場專業的部分他們一定比較有把握對其他的海外設廠海外經營的部分經濟部絕對會全力來照顧他們"},{"start":346.772,"end":348.513,"text":"那有沒有缺電的問題?"},{"start":373.865,"end":376.867,"text":"未來如果就如同大家估計的預估如果沒有AI部分AI產業沒有爆炸性的發展就是沒有辦法達到爆炸性發展我們就預估是3%左右"},{"start":397.657,"end":403.262,"text":"3%左右,每年都要增加3%用電的情況下,我預計2025年是不是有用電的缺口?"},{"start":415.526,"end":424.91,"text":"我們現在增加的部分這個我想我必須要重新再確認一下就是2%到3%怎麼會這樣子你剛才說"},{"start":429.395,"end":436.658,"text":"市長,之前大家都這樣說了,你怎麼突然說沒有3%了?市長,過去我們估計是每一年2%成長,最近我們估計是3%成長,但是我認為這幾天我們收到的訊息,可能會"},{"start":450.094,"end":450.795,"text":"那研發中心呢"},{"start":479.297,"end":484.08,"text":"研發中心要不要用綠電?他這個部門跟委員報告他用綠電 神哥關心的說核電可不可用 不能用"},{"start":502.188,"end":502.368,"text":"醫院的發展呢?"},{"start":515.034,"end":515.794,"text":"我們會遵守這個法律的規定"},{"start":540.353,"end":568.915,"text":"那法規所以你們就是要按照法規的規定我想這個公務系統一切依法行事那如果有自然難行的地方我們就提修法好所以目前就是按照法律的規定按照法律規定那如果未來AI的機器人跟病人產生相關異議的時候怎麼樣處理還是依法律規定的進行沒有法律了現在就沒有法律了"},{"start":570.267,"end":570.347,"text":"謝衣鳯委員"}]}},{"id":"153587","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153587","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c987dca273a2cbfc8a77e99b63b7a11dbca11da973c502cee62452ba7b18f0a76fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:01:18 - 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案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及保障法草案 案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第1會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第2會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第3會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第4會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第5會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第6會期司法及保障法草案 案．立法院第7會期司法及保"},{"start":57.208,"end":79.26,"text":"我自己的提案也是認為說應該就刑事訴訟法裡面我們就刑事訴訟法去修法或是另立專章都可以但是實在是我不太認為說應該是用另立專法的方式去處理啦好那我想就教一下那個司法院請問一下那個司法院對於行政院的這個科偵法的這個專法司法院有什麼想法"},{"start":81.028,"end":94.566,"text":"檢查及保障法的草擬過程,我們司法院一直都沒有缺席。我們認為用專法來處理也可以適時及時符合偵查機關的需求。"},{"start":95.267,"end":96.107,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":124.002,"end":152.333,"text":"通報的那個通訊監察部分我國從88年就把就是用專法的方式來處理了沒有這我知道啊那個我現在是問你科證法的部分吶那通保法的部分我想說已經20年了我們就不要再討論那個部分因為我一直認為侵害人權的東西其實都要法官保留我一直是這種觀念吶不要說由偵查機關自己去下決定這樣其實對人權保障會更好否則我跟你講"},{"start":154.025,"end":182.779,"text":"其實以前搜索權在檢察官那邊的時候當然有一些檢察官他就會濫用嘛那自從到法官之後其實已經規範到很規避掉很多濫用的問題啦但是我一直覺得很奇怪從106年最高法院就已經就已經就判決裡面就要求說有關GPS追蹤器的使用要件他希望要趕快研擬可是這七年過去了到底司法院有做了什麼樣的什麼樣的那個改正然後去正當化這個法律程序呢"},{"start":183.739,"end":185.981,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":199.383,"end":222.501,"text":"草擬過用專章的方式在刑事訴訟法來修法但是在109年法務部就已經有公佈他的所謂的預告科技偵查法的草案那這邊也許是當時的氛圍或是當時的需要改由立法分工由法務部來處理會不會有這個可能性因為訴訟法是司法院"},{"start":226.952,"end":236.208,"text":"處理的嘛,阿法務部沒辦法啊,法務部拜託,法務部一直等著司法院要修法,然後司法院一直不修法,然後法務部底下的檢察官們"},{"start":237.602,"end":240.264,"text":"檢查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":262.381,"end":264.202,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":290.17,"end":317.936,"text":"這個搜索扣押的這種概念就你卻要另立專法其實我跟你說這一次院版行政院版的科偵法專法裡面的條文我沒有我沒有反對我也蠻支持的但是我今天是對於體力上面為何要另立專法而不是設在刑事訴訟法裡面更何況今天我們很多東西要求的是法官保留那今天有司法院去就刑事訴訟法去修正那不是最好嗎"},{"start":319.156,"end":338.574,"text":"你今天讓法務部來去定一個東西然後叫你法官來遵守我個人覺得無法想像為什麼要把體力弄成這樣所以我自己在當檢察官的時候我的一個感覺是說你到底司法院在混什麼東西的為什麼不趕快修行這訴訟法然後搞得我們以前GPS都不能用"},{"start":339.838,"end":360.075,"text":"對阿就是以前常常在用的GPS的話你知道嗎2014年那個海巡署的那個案子就海巡署的人被判拘獄59天那個之後沒有人敢用就國家在偵查犯罪的時候非常的困難因為犯嫌他們他們用最好的車子最好的電腦設備他們因為他們賺很多錢所以他們都買最好的設備就我們的"},{"start":364.258,"end":367.1,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":392.998,"end":412.245,"text":"那這些年來我也不懂為什麼司法院遲遲不願意就這幾個重點的部分去修法所以我才會說是不是這個原因是不是這個原因因為司法院遲遲不肯修刑訴導致法務部、行政院不得不推這個很奇怪的專法出來"},{"start":414.083,"end":434.571,"text":"委員我可以回應一下是那也在當時的時空背景是怎麼樣我可能無從得知啦不過我可以推敲的是偵查偵查作為主要是偵查機關在使用他最貼近第一線的偵查人員他對相關的偵查手段的日新月異他的人最快的掌握住"},{"start":435.111,"end":436.812,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":463.908,"end":480.177,"text":"但是目前來講我覺得可以快速反映偵查機關所需然後做反映說適當的修正因為基本上司法院對相關偵查機關的相關偵查作為的日行願意的相關手段我們的資訊可能比較軟一點聽起來你的想法是這樣但是我的想法是比較是說"},{"start":481.138,"end":481.839,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":496.914,"end":519.953,"text":"我們會覺得會比較保障一點保障一些啦欸再給我一點時間吼好那還有吼就是更何況這些證據的認定將來有無證據能力或是證據力到哪裡這個也都是法官在認定嗎不是檢察官啊所以這個東西吼我還是覺得我還是對於這個體力去設計由專法來處理我還是有很多的意見吼那因為時間的關係吼"},{"start":521.434,"end":545.16,"text":"我最後我是希望一個東西啦我想請問一下你們這些獲取的數位資訊請問部長獲取的如果這個法過了獲取的數位資訊你們怎麼監督怎麼管考怎麼讓人民信任你不會拿去做其他的用途我們會對一個會再制定一個定定一個內規的一個一個要點讓這些執行單位那個這個有這個依循"},{"start":546.872,"end":556.748,"text":"所以目前都還沒有任何...這個法律過了我們會定定一個內控的一個機制所以目前都沒有任何的那個計劃嗎?"},{"start":559.838,"end":560.719,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案 案。"},{"start":583.038,"end":584.879,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":600.151,"end":600.911,"text":"錢防制法第五條之一條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":626.073,"end":627.874,"text":"檢查及保障法草案案件事宜,請審議"},{"start":644.226,"end":665.076,"text":"我了解啦但是各自籌備處我們也會很怕各自籌備處雖然是中立機關但走到最後會不會跟NCC一樣又被大家罵到臭頭就大家都開始質疑他的中立性這是我擔心的部分啦當然我很希望說制度都很完美不要讓人去濫用制度我的想法只是這樣好謝謝兩位好謝謝吳釗緯謝謝鄭部長謝謝李"}]}},{"id":"153585","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153585","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9824cded5adaef77cb05d12856443da96911da973c502cee628317b6e95026e3165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:52:43 - 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Fabric），讓各個政府資料的整個圖像變得比較清楚。這樣相對來講，不管是要進行資料串接、應用服務也好，或是AI訓練也好，都能夠有一個比較標準的規格。也同時知道這樣的資料大概會在什麼地方可以找得到，這是我們正在努力的方向。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，這個公建計畫大概是什麼時候會確認有這筆預算，因為這個非常影響我們的百工百業到底有沒有東西可以用。"],["葉次長寧：是的，我們現在在爭取114年的計畫。"],["張委員雅琳：114年？那我們相對的一些詳細的規劃現在是有了對不對？"],["葉次長寧：我們現在在進行規劃中。"],["張委員雅琳：那進行規劃之後是不是也可以提供給我？我們可以做一些討論，好不好？"],["葉次長寧：可以，沒有問題。"],["張委員雅琳：再來就是，因為我的時間有一點不太夠，我要講一個重點，其實今天委員也都有提到，到底我們要不要持續對TAIDE做投資。我自己來看，圖靈獎得主主導Meta AI研究的科學家Yann LeCun就有講，不要研究大型語言模型，上次其實我也有跟主委講，我們應該要專精於本土的語言模型，這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方。","我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告，我也發現資訊業、製造業他們有導入的那些企業所使用的就是ChatGPT、Midjourney這種東西，所以其實是跟TAIDE有相關，我們是有競爭優勢的。但是有一個提醒，金融時報在5月22號報導中國近期透過一些官方訓練他們自己的ChatGPT，叫做「Chat Xi PT」。這是金融時報說的，因為它主要的訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫，習思想是由14條原則來組成的，包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權，加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀，所以它今天產出的內容其實會造成很大偏頗的問題、有不中立的問題。","剛剛好今天國語日報也講到了這一點，所以這一點我想請主委或者是誰可以來回答我，當世界都在發展AI的時候，我們今天在做本土語言模型的時候，要如何確保我們的資料不是偏頗的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：非常同意委員的觀點，其實大型語言模型不是萬靈丹，它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法，是一種統計性的方式，需要大量的資料，非常大的模型、耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案，但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確，也不是所有的應用都適合。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在泛講AI，AI有很多種方式，所以我們要混合其他的方式，不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，我同意。"],["吳主任委員誠文：所以委員的觀點非常好，我們要兼顧能源的有效使用，人才的有效使用、模型的優化、資料的準確度，將來在各行各業的應用，我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的發展，很同意委員的觀點。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但我想要知道，因為剛剛其實有講了，我也非常認同，就是我們應該要做出一些差異化，而且是真正適合臺灣產業使用的。當然就是說，我先延伸一下這一點，我們應該要跟企業合作，開發更多的應用情境來協助企業使用這個生成式AI。但是也是要坦白說，也要有一定開發能力的企業才有辦法自己開發出來，所以是不是也……因為目前TAIDE還是一整包資料，未來也希望是不是可以開放出來，這是可以來討論的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：但是回到「偏頗」的問題，我們要如何確保現在所訓練的資料沒有偏頗性的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分現在是可以再做一下說明嗎？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：跟委員報告一下，我們所謂的TAIDE，因為trustworthy確定資料不偏頗是我們的一個滿重要的任務。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：未來數位部的評測中心其實也會做這方面的檢測，所以這是我們很注意的一個重點，在發展TAIDE的時候。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個檢測性的頻率是多久呢？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：資料進來的時候要經過評測中心檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗。"],["張委員雅琳：所以這跟114年的公建計畫也非常有關係，對不對？"],["楊執行秘書佳玲：是。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，主委請回。","我們接下來請AI博士葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","萬美玲","葉元之","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葛如鈞","柯志恩","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","范雲","翁曉玲","邱志偉","徐欣瑩","吳春城","李柏毅","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","牛煦庭"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文、數位發展部列席就「人工智慧 (AI)推動現況與未來\n方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.066593750000003,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.809093750000002,"end":66.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.34534375,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.29221875,"end":129.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.74471875,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.82909375,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.75284375,"end":133.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.28846875000002,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.13221875000002,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.75034375,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.74534375000002,"end":164.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.06846875000002,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.51846875,"end":176.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.86409375000002,"end":195.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.08721875,"end":180.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.97159375,"end":191.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.83596875,"end":195.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.57846875,"end":196.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.89034375,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.30284375000002,"end":238.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.84596875000003,"end":243.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.01034375,"end":241.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.84096875,"end":247.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.37221875,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.47159375,"end":260.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.66534375000003,"end":309.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.61971875,"end":318.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.05284375,"end":368.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.05346875000004,"end":384.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.64596875,"end":386.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.89034375,"end":396.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.99846875000003,"end":400.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.64346875,"end":402.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.26346875,"end":402.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.71909375,"end":402.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.73596875000004,"end":402.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.35596875000005,"end":444.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.62409375000004,"end":452.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.85534375000003,"end":449.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.29784375,"end":454.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.66034375000004,"end":457.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.30534375,"end":460.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.63409375000003,"end":462.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.73096875000005,"end":466.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.86971875,"end":465.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.47721875,"end":465.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.10159375,"end":466.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.27034375000005,"end":466.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.28721875,"end":466.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.30409375000005,"end":466.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.50659375000004,"end":466.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.52346875,"end":497.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.26534375000006,"end":514.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.2922187500001,"end":515.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.76034375,"end":558.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.28534375,"end":571.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.1609687499999,"end":602.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.39221875,"end":577.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.64659375,"end":597.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.5490937500001,"end":599.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.85659375,"end":613.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.5984687499999,"end":608.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.6397187499999,"end":625.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.8759687500001,"end":613.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.1484687500001,"end":654.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.0503437500001,"end":632.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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我們有請主委有請吳主委委員好"},{"start":16.154,"end":38.902,"text":"主委好,因為剛剛有委員問到就是有關於兒童教育在AI這一段那我就想我就先延伸來提醒一下就其實在2016年世界經濟論壇就一路出報告來提醒大家面對AI孩子需要具備的能力是什麼在AI世代如何還是成為世界上極具有競爭力的人才其實是透過遊戲"},{"start":40.682,"end":65.981,"text":"因為遊戲之中其實有充分的創造力的練習這個是AI現在沒有辦法取代的所以我希望就是說我們雖然要關注兒童的教育面的話我們可能還是要非常的謹慎不要就是投入太多的AI的課程反而剝奪了兒童遊戲的時間那反而是讓我們沒有辦法在AI時代可以存活下來這個是從2016年開始世界經濟論壇就一個很大的提醒"},{"start":67.543,"end":69.786,"text":"臺灣是無名英雄是世界的支柱那感染也鼓舞了所有的臺灣人"},{"start":83.519,"end":112.225,"text":"同時接下來有一系列不管是AMD或是超微他們都宣布要投資台灣一瞬間台灣變成了世界的中心台北市電腦工會理事長有提到有三個重點需要面對第一個就是算力第二個是電力第三個是人力上次我在諮詢經濟部的時候有提到說我們有沒有把AI需要的電力來把它算進去"},{"start":113.025,"end":129.258,"text":"因為現在大家都大幅的加碼投資剛剛也是一堆算力中心要進來了那我想跟主委請教就是說因為算力就是非常需要電力那我們之前在做這些估算的時候有沒有把這些電力的規劃都放進去呢?"},{"start":130.945,"end":152.892,"text":"有沒有協助經濟部來做這些規劃呢?有,抱歉。報告委員,我們跟經濟部是一直密切在溝通。在經濟部提出來的這個規劃裡面,其實未來幾年,我們依照現在AI的需求以及半導體製造的需求,這個電力是一直,需求是一直在成長。"},{"start":153.993,"end":159.464,"text":"在成長的過程當中我們會盡力去開發我們的綠電這個綠電目前規劃當中是希望將來短期內"},{"start":165.117,"end":194.363,"text":"我們現在預計要增建這些算力這個超級電腦能夠符合現在經濟部的規劃所以目前經濟部的報告是沒有問題好那這部分因為其實因為這個AI的進步是成長迅速啦所以而且雖然說好像我們算力大幅的增加我們效能增加電力也沒用到這麼多但是我覺得這邊我們還是要實時的去保持我們要去計算出相對的一些電力需求讓我們確保我們的這些產業還有AI算力中心都可以持續的有好好的運作"},{"start":195.243,"end":219.304,"text":"謝謝委員那再來就是說因為其實我們在112年有提供提出一個晶片驅動臺灣創新產業的一個方案也投入了3000多億要來挹注這個生成式AI的關鍵技術那也有說我們要跟百工百業來去調查他們的AI需求然後並且已經以機械業為示範的案例建立了資料共享機制那我想要了解在這一段"},{"start":219.884,"end":242.952,"text":"我們目前針對百工百業雖然是112年開始那我們接下來的一個規劃目前的進度是什麼有沒有詳細的一個推廣我們大概要到什麼時候推廣到多少的產業這樣子我在上個月接任的時候有跟媒體宣布過我們在三個月內要規劃出一個方案出來三個月內是嗎三個月內那之後可以規劃出方案的時候可不可以也提供給我們"},{"start":244.509,"end":256.064,"text":"當然一定也會在這邊報告跟委員報告那接下來我想要再提醒我不知道主委有沒有看過這一份就是AI產業化去年一個新的大調查的報告不知道主委看過這份報告嗎"},{"start":258.853,"end":286.465,"text":"這份報告我個人沒有看過好喔沒關係那我之後也希望說主委可能也可以看一下因為他提我們剛剛講百工百業他其實就講到了他們去調查了四種不同的產業這樣子製造業啦然後還有專業服務業啊然後還有ICP產業等等的那他就講到去了解說到底有多少企業導入了AI那這樣看起來雖然有近半數好像有導入但是也有近半數過半數已經導入但是也有近半數完全沒有"},{"start":287.125,"end":309.633,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":309.713,"end":317.741,"text":"但是我們的製造業政府機關以及零售貿易服務業都是低於平均的所以這一塊非常需要主委的協助"},{"start":319.353,"end":348.653,"text":"我自己看了一些報導他們說製造業是可以導入AI模型來輔助增進產線的生產效率提升良率、預防性維修所以這些都是好處但是我也看到了這個人工智慧學校的校長孔祥忠院士他提到說我們現在的政府資料其實是有問題的我們的原始資料不明是什麼樣的資料何時收集是否經過整理都不清楚第二個也不知道資料到底放在哪裡伺服器經常壞許多實驗產出數據寫了兩篇論文之後資料就不知道在哪裡了"},{"start":349.433,"end":367.991,"text":"第三個授權的規格不明是否定期維護所以就變成說政府都說有資料但是沒有整理成AI模型可以使用的都不算真的資料所以如果以這個標準來看可用的資料其實非常少那就會很難做出AI模型那"},{"start":369.176,"end":381.526,"text":"說他有三個建議就是說我們是不是可以把這個資料整理清楚建立產業模型來養技職人才那是不是可以在像是如果是通用的通用資料就用通用模型給一般人專業領域喔如製造業醫療業"},{"start":384.608,"end":384.948,"text":"請數位部回答"},{"start":404.552,"end":432.883,"text":"跟委員報告本部的資料治理的部分是由我們多元創新司來負責那委員剛剛指出的非常正確就是目前政府資料的狀況是屬於一個還在比較初階的階段那我們會爭取一個公共建設計畫做所謂的資料圖譜讓各個政府的資料它的整個圖像變得比較清楚那相對來講不管是要進行資料創接應用服務也好"},{"start":433.243,"end":433.703,"text":"主任委員吳誠文．"},{"start":459.098,"end":459.999,"text":"今天委員也有提到"},{"start":474.717,"end":495.858,"text":"到底我們要不要持續的去對台德做投資?那我自己看這個圖靈獎得主主導Meta AI研究的科學家楊立坤他就有講不要研究大型語言模型這上次我有跟主委講我們應該要來專精於本土語言模型這才是我們最具有競爭優勢的地方那我其實看了剛剛那一份AI產業化的報告我也發現資訊業"},{"start":499.701,"end":513.155,"text":"資料製造業他們有導入的那些企業他們使用的就是checkGPT、MeJourney這種東西所以其實是跟我們的這個台德是有相關我們是有競爭優勢的啦但是有一個提醒"},{"start":517.699,"end":536.358,"text":"金融時報在5月22日報導了中國近期透過的一些官方訓練他們自己的CHAT GPT叫做CHAT CPT這是金融時報說的因為它主要訓練素材是習近平新時代中國特色社會主義思想資料庫"},{"start":537.679,"end":558.126,"text":"習思想是由14條原則來組成的包括保證中國共產黨絕對掌權加強國家安全和社會主義價值觀所以他今天闡述的內容其實是會造成一些很大的偏頗的問題有不中立的問題那剛剛好今天國有日報他也講到了這一點"},{"start":559.853,"end":570.486,"text":"所以這一點我想請主委或是誰可以來回答我就說當世界都在發展AI的時候我們今天是我們的本土語言模型的時候我們要如何來確保我們的資料不是偏頗的"},{"start":572.202,"end":599.071,"text":"我非常同意委員的觀點其實大型元模型不是萬靈丹它是非常耗資源、耗能源的一種做法它是一種統計性的方式需要大量的資料、非常大的模型用耗大量的電力、算力才有辦法做出答案但是它的答案卻又不是百分之百準確它其實不是所有的應用都適合"},{"start":599.811,"end":624.511,"text":"我們現在範講AI,AI有很多種方式所以我們要混合其他的方式不一定全部都是用這種大型語言模型所以委員的觀點非常好所以我們要兼顧說能源的有效使用人才的有效使用模型的優化資料的準確度將來在各行各業的應用我們會去協助他們做比較有效率的這個發展很同意委員的觀點"},{"start":625.331,"end":642.278,"text":"對,但是我想要知道就是說剛剛其實有講嘛就是說我也非常認同啦就是說我們應該要做出一些差異化而且是真正適合台灣的產業使用的那當然就是說延伸這一點我先延伸一下就是說我們應該要來跟企業來合作開發更多的應用情境來協助企業來使用這個深層式AI這樣子那但是齁"},{"start":648.38,"end":649.02,"text":"您可以再做一些說明嗎?"},{"start":672.526,"end":694.093,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我們所謂的這個TIDE因為Trustworthy缺的資料不偏頗是我們一個蠻重要的任務那未來這個在數位部的評測中心其實他們也會做這方面的檢測所以這是我們很注意的一個重點在發表TIDE的時候這檢測性是頻率是多久呢我們資料對就資料進來的時候要經過評測中心來檢測這個資料有沒有偏頗這樣子好所以這個那個114年的公建計畫應該也非常有關係對不對會是好了解謝謝喔"},{"start":702.948,"end":702.968,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153584","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153584","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98ddc7f98fb30a922d7e99b63b7a11dbca11da973c502cee622cdafff4c0ecf7955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:52:08 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tart":72.498,"end":92.766,"text":"官兵大概36%那平均年齡接近41歲那服役4到9年的大概有64%平均年齡大概26歲所以不論是第一類或第二類其實就這個表上來看的話軍旅生涯恐怕不會是他們執牙的最終戰甚至可能是他們的第一戰"},{"start":94.326,"end":114.215,"text":"這只是其中的一個階段所以這時候退輔會的就學跟就業的功能我覺得大家就會非常非常的期待那依照我們看得下現在的現行的法規在這個國軍介退官兵就業輔導措施實施要點裡面目前看起來只有在退伍前的前半年要接受職業訓練主委你覺得這樣夠嗎"},{"start":117.175,"end":133.428,"text":"時間太短了一點時間太短了一點嘛對不對所以其實我們看到有很多年輕人他不一定是不願意從軍但他們一想到或者從過去前人的例子裡面聽到說離開部隊要找下一份工作幾乎是從零開始"},{"start":134.309,"end":134.89,"text":"主委 不好意思"},{"start":148.53,"end":162.423,"text":"那我這下面重點來是我要跟主委討論我們關於軍事跟這個民間專長的轉換其實我們這邊在談的不是什麼新的新聞我們其實看到2022年國防部其實有一個這個軍職專長轉嫌民間職業對照的這個計畫這個計畫最後怎麼了"},{"start":175.079,"end":192.364,"text":"國防部軍職專長轉弦民間職業對照計畫 最後怎麼了?我們其實從109年就跟國防部在談這件事情但是因為我們尊重國防部他因為有戰訓本務的一個考量還有其他的因素所以他就暫停"},{"start":193.204,"end":197.17,"text":"但是我們現在已經還持續在溝通對,我們就只講這個計畫後來失敗了"},{"start":200.41,"end":204.954,"text":"國防部公開表示,軍事專長與民間職業兩者屬性不同,無法順利轉弦及對照。這當然是因為國防部當時是想很簡單的職業別對照,比如飛行員,我就是讓他去找變成是轉飛民航機"},{"start":225.45,"end":236.288,"text":"那如果你開軍卡的駕照你可以就去開民間的卡車這幾乎是非常非常直覺性的這樣子的對照那問題就來啦那你的野戰部隊你的裝甲兵要對到什麼"},{"start":237.554,"end":262.559,"text":"沒有能對照啊 對不對所以這是為什麼當時這個計畫其實很難成功的原因可是我現在要講的不是簡單的這個職業別的對照我其實想請主委參考一下其他部會有幾個我覺得值得參照的比方說在勞動部裡面我們看到這個職能基準的一覽表裡面其實它分為幾個層次它其實是把職能的內涵包括它的職能做了更進一步的分析跟探討"},{"start":263.439,"end":280.301,"text":"洪申翰找了專家學者來分析、拆分每一個職業包括投影片的第一層他分了他的主要職責工作的任務甚至下到第三層是要去把他的知識面、技能面全部都給挖出來跟呈現出來所以以這個物流管理人員來說"},{"start":281.582,"end":307.333,"text":"他的職能的基礎第一個職責是可能是協調車隊來管控物流第二個是他的工作任務是要執行車隊管控任務那第三個是他下面也把他的知識跟技能給分析出來這不是只有勞動部這樣做包括經濟部也有IPAS包括教育部也有就職平台的U-CAN其實都採用這種細分的科學分析的方法"},{"start":308.336,"end":308.476,"text":"主席"},{"start":325.458,"end":351.354,"text":"如果我們把其他部會相關的做法可以值得參考的我們現在都攤在眼前你覺得退輔會有哪些事情可以多做是 謝謝委員給我們指導我覺得這很有參考的價值現在最主要就是剛剛我們碰到的困難剛剛處長講的還有委員所發現的就是這一塊這是盲點那怎麼樣能夠突破參考剛剛林鄭月娥的勞動部經濟部這個教育部他怎麼樣去把它細分一定有一些"},{"start":352.395,"end":354.456,"text":"主委你覺得你們會怎麼做?"},{"start":368.524,"end":395.952,"text":"我先想參考一下委員所提供的資料然後回去之後我們依據我們的屬性不同我們的特性不同但是怎麼樣跟民間這些有相同的地方能夠能夠借鞋所以我們把它找出來所以我舉例來說假設今天是一個營長他這個退伍了以後如果他的履歷表上面他是寫我是戰車營營長今天你想像一個企業的老闆他看到履歷上面是戰車營長他一定想說我又沒有戰車給你開"},{"start":397.694,"end":411.307,"text":"對不對可是如果你有辦法把他做出他的職能做出這樣子內涵的細分的時候你就會發現一個營長他要管理經營400人的生活演訓任務甚至他還要來管理很多戰車的維修調度"},{"start":413.188,"end":439.811,"text":"這裡面包括了領導力包括運輸管理包括人資其實有非常非常管理的專才在這裡面如果他的履歷可以清楚的協助他把這些事情都呈現上去恐怕其實對一個民間企業的老闆對於他的需求來說恐怕會大大的提升所以我們長期以來沒有協助我們的退伍軍人來推進這樣子的工作或這樣的分析坦白說我覺得這在行政上面是有很大的問題的"},{"start":443.004,"end":462.939,"text":"主委你剛上任我想提醒就了解其實當初之前在李文忠副主委的時候其實他有計畫找了專家的學者來做建立國軍的職能基準表那這個計畫其實是有的那我想問主委我們應該可以在這個計畫的基礎下面再往前推進吧可以"},{"start":463.919,"end":465.2,"text":"對,我們在協調國防部"},{"start":486.992,"end":496.554,"text":"各位委員補充報告我們上個月已經陪同國防部的專案人員我們已經去拜訪教育部勞動部跟那個經濟部這個相關的職能平台他們也都了解所以我們會持續去跟國防部來洽談那可不可以在下個會期前提出相關具體的明確的計畫我們要怎麼來執行這樣的計畫我就給大家一個新的氣象新的計畫新的格局局面吧"},{"start":511.977,"end":512.458,"text":"謝謝主委的承諾,我們很期待,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153583","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153583","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9869dddccb3ef88f2984a12a82c262ca1011da973c502cee6242d906fa9f5dffe95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:47:37 - 10:59:06","影片長度":"00:11:29","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:47:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:59:06+08:00","duration":689,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時47分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：邱部長好。恭喜當部長，而且很辛苦，任重道遠……"],["邱部長泰源：我們一起為臺灣努力。"],["王委員正旭：要繼續幫全民的健康還有疾病照顧的扶植，一起來努力。這次我很高興有機會，在江副院長的率領下，以視導團的名義去參加在瑞士的相關活動。在這個過程真的非常感謝很多友邦和友好國家、民團跟僑界共同努力，期待讓臺灣在全球健康的維護得到一個公平對待的機會。雖然很可惜，我們真的要譴責中共跟巴基斯坦這些國家那麼不友善，讓我們臺灣的民眾無法接受Health For All這樣一個全球的要求。不過還是非常感謝，包括外交部的所有同仁跟駐在國的三位大使，還有現場的外交部同仁，還有江科長共同的努力，讓我們在這個過程裡面，可以有機會去跟類似的僑團跟相關的組織，還有那邊的國會議員都有很好的互動。","很想要瞭解的就是，剛剛也有很多委員提到，參與很多相關的雙邊會談，這些雙邊會談有一些有簽訂了MOU，有一些有具體的內容，到底哪一些部分是可以利用這個機會再向國人做報告，讓大家都能夠相對的瞭解，在那麼辛苦的過程裡面，因為我看你們六天的行程裡面，排得非常非常的充實，回到臺灣又要趕快來工作，一定非常的辛苦，不過，這個充實的內容能不能有一些合作機制，可以對打造健康臺灣有幫助的部分，也請部長利用這個機會來跟國人說明。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝王委員的辛苦，在那邊代表視導團有卓越的貢獻，也給我們世衛行動團很大的幫助，我非常感謝。我以前當立委或是當醫師公會理事長到那邊的時候，我都覺得說怎麼有那麼多秘密活動，覺得外交部或是世衛行動團的人怎麼會一下子就不見、一下子就不見，我們立委團就跑去國會參觀，然後去各個醫院參觀，原來他們都在參與這些雙邊的會議。我這一次參與會議，每一場不但有周全的準備，我很敬佩外交部真的能夠找到那麼多的國家，而且層級都越來越高。但是你可以發現這一場就是寫明不能照相、不能送禮、不能公告的很多，表示說真的我們的外交壓力還是相當的大，至於剛剛外交部有提過可以公告、可以分享的話，我們絕對沒有什麼好保留的，一定會拿出來，就像我們把WHA所有討論的健康議題，我們一五一十，像去年我們就到那邊考察，衛環到那邊開考察會議，就是希望完全公開WHA所有的、任何的資訊，讓國人都能夠瞭解，共同來為健康臺灣來努力。"],["王委員正旭：我們很期待有新的目標，或者是原來的合作機制能夠持續延續，而且對於全民的健康，在各方面都有很重要的、需要努力完成的部分，也讓大家都能夠很清楚地瞭解。再來就是延續剛剛王委員所提到大流行公約的部分，這部分其實本席非常非常的關心，因為我們知道WHO第十四期的工作計畫六大優先領域裡面，最後一項就是即時偵測並有效因應健康衛生緊急事件，我相信這個都是為了這次的疫情所衍生出來的一些重要議題。在這個部分，對於未來如果真的像剛剛一鈞副署長所提到的，我們無法參與實際討論的話，就是類似聯合國這樣的角色的時候，那我們對於疫苗的研發、在疫情當中的一些物資的儲備、資訊的流通和取得還有相關研究等方面，如何能夠讓國人也非常安心的知道，即使我們不具有官方的這種準備之下，我們如何能夠針對這些疫情可能帶來的下一次衝擊做好完整的準備？就這一部分可不可以也利用這個機會讓國人安心並知道我們努力的方向？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝王委員。以我過去多年來從SARS到COVID疫情期間帶領團隊、帶領全國的醫界配合政府在抗COVID的經驗，其實我們體系的韌性算相當的好，所以大概都能夠早期的在各個角落detect到相關的訊息或者實際上的個案。其實在海關的人員也非常的辛苦，他們守住每一個可能性，到現在還是非常的辛苦，都日以繼夜的在做，我真的是非常感佩這些相關的工作同仁。在醫界這個部分，因為病人會跑到醫界來，就會面對醫師，每一個醫師都比人家更緊張，因為你不曉得這個來看病的患者是為什麼發燒，所以其實醫界會更緊張。不管是在醫院的急診或者在第一線的門診，其實我們關於防疫的訓練都非常完整，尤其加上這次的COVID，像我在全國醫師公會有主持過至少50場以上在全國各縣市的全國防疫會議，分享全國怎麼樣在第一線來防疫，我想這個也奠立了很好的防疫的韌性，所以未來如果發生一些相關的新興疾病，我相信臺灣是很有實力來早期偵測並守住。","大流行公約是這個世界大家庭應該要共同來分享的，但是臺灣這樣的優等生卻不能進去這個教室分享，連世界醫師會都寫信給WHO的秘書長說這是一種羞恥的事情，竟然沒有讓臺灣這個優等生進去分享。當然我們自已也沒有那麼驕傲地說是去分享，其實還有很多是要互相學習的，但是總是要能夠進去教室，這個也是我們努力的方向，一鈞副署長有沒有要補充？"],["羅副署長一鈞：簡單跟委員補充兩點，第一個，就是我們持續厚植我們國內防疫的基礎，不管是防疫物資或者是疫苗、藥品的一些準備。另外，就國際的部分我們要善盡責任，因為這個大流行公約是希望能夠談出一個成果，讓資訊跟一些病毒株的分享能夠更快速、公開、透明，還有就是在提供這個病毒株之後所研發出來的疫苗、藥物等成果，也要能夠回饋給國際社會。那我想我們除了善盡國際責任，不管有沒有加入，都能夠符合國際上的需求之外，也會來注意整個公約裡頭一些權利義務的部分，看有沒有能夠對我們有利的部分並儘量爭取。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。我也很期待臺灣作為全球防疫重要的第一線，我們希望能夠把握這樣的機會，也能夠充分的參與。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。再過來要麻煩外交部，關於如何能夠在兩個部會之間相關的配合，不曉得陳次長對於以價值外交來推動參與WHA或者是同步透過臺灣醫療的實力，是不是有辦法讓全球知道我們的衛生價值還有外交價值事實上是可以同步來運作，讓世界可以看得到，而且更願意來接納臺灣？"],["陳次長立國：謝謝委員，關於您剛剛的質詢，我們非常同意，也就是說，您剛剛提到，因為我們本來就是一個極度重視而且非常努力去實踐提升關於法治、人權、自由、民主的國家，尤其我們在公衛醫療體系這樣的努力與成果，而且又是全世界善盡責任、義務的一分子，所以當然未來我們在推動我們外交工作裡面的一個主軸，除了同盟外交、經貿外交以外，就是價值外交，我們其實在這個工作上面可以把這兩個相互結合，也就是價值外交裡面一定有包含我們在公衛醫療體系上面的能量對這個世界的貢獻，因為本來在所謂的人權裡面就有健康的基本人權，這是全世界都應該要重視的，臺灣當然也可以有貢獻。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。其實這一次我有利用去到瑞士的機會陪同國民健康署的魏副署長去世界抗癌聯盟（UICC），一起去報告我們臺灣有關於癌症的整個防護還有癌症的一些相關措施，也跟他們互相的交流，就是NGO可以透過這樣的方式一起來參與全球不管是癌症或者是相關領域健康照護的這些目標的達成，所以我們很期待各個不同的部會可以共同來努力，讓世界看得到臺灣，臺灣可以幫助世界。謝謝，大家繼續努力。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝王委員，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員。我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。先預告：上午進行到12點左右，休息30分鐘後繼續開會。現在我們請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.324718750000002,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.88971875,"end":12.923468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.340343750000002,"end":20.348468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.67784375,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.00659375,"end":21.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.96846875,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.250968750000002,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.78659375,"end":24.820343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.820343750000003,"end":27.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.48659375,"end":27.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.73721875000001,"end":79.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.03534375000001,"end":100.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.73659375000001,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.39784375,"end":111.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.74346875,"end":126.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.04909375000001,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.42034375,"end":160.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.63034375,"end":162.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.11096875,"end":165.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.87846875000002,"end":170.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.38409375,"end":170.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.05909375000002,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.22846875000002,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.07596875000002,"end":201.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.00784375,"end":214.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2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Health for all這樣的一個全球的要求不過還是非常感謝包括外交部的所有同仁都住在國的三位大使還有在現場的包括我們的外交部的同仁還有江科長共同的努力讓我們在這個過程裡面可以有機會去跟在瑞士的僑團跟相關的組織"},{"start":97.143,"end":125.905,"text":"還有那邊的國會議員都有很好的互動那很想要了解的就是剛剛也有很多委員提到參與很多相關的這個雙邊會談那這些雙邊會談有一些有簽訂的模擬有一些有具體的一些內容那到底哪一些部分是可以利用這個機會再向國人做報告讓大家都能夠"},{"start":127.186,"end":150.118,"text":"相對的瞭解在這個那麼辛苦的過程裡面因為我看你們這個6天的行程裡面拍得非常非常的充實回到台灣又要趕快來工作一定非常的辛苦不過這個充實的內容能不能有一些合作機制可以對打造健康台灣有幫助的部分也請利用這個機會來跟國務院做說明謝謝"},{"start":155.061,"end":169.201,"text":"好,謝謝王委員的辛苦,而且在那邊代表世導團有卓越的貢獻也協助我們世衛行動團很大的幫助,非常的感謝"},{"start":170.492,"end":189.676,"text":"那我以前當立委或當議事公會理事長到那邊的時候我都覺得說 哇 怎麼這麼多秘密活動 外交部那邊的消息 社會團的人怎麼一下就不見、一下就不見 那我們立委團就跑去國會參觀、去各個醫院參觀 原來他們都在談這些雙邊的會議 這次雙邊會議我才每一次每一場"},{"start":198.14,"end":214.591,"text":"不但要周全的準備我很敬佩能夠找到真的能夠找到那麼多的國家這個外交部我很敬佩而且成績都越來越高但是你會發現這一場這個水明說不能照相不能送禮不能公告"},{"start":215.532,"end":239.197,"text":"的很多表示說真的我們的外交的壓力還是相當的大那自己說剛剛有提過可以那個外交部有提過可以來公告可以來分享的話我們絕對沒有什麼好保留的一定要拿出來就像我們把WHA所有討論的健康議題我們一五一十在像去年我們就到那邊考察"},{"start":240.738,"end":251.232,"text":"衛環大會開考察會議就是希望完全公開WHA所有的任何的資訊讓國人都能夠來了解共同來為健康台灣來努力"},{"start":252.264,"end":269.902,"text":"好,我們很期待這樣的有新的目標或者是原來合作機制能夠持續延續而且對全民的健康在各方面都有很重要的這些努力要完成的部分讓大家都能夠很清楚的了解"},{"start":270.842,"end":295.934,"text":"再過來就是沿著剛剛王委員所提到的大流行公約的部分這部分其實本席非常非常的關心因為我們知道WHO裡面第14期的工作計畫六大優先領域裡面最後一項就是即時偵測並有效的因應健康衛生緊急事件我相信這個都是為了這一次的疫情所衍生出來的一些重要的議題"},{"start":296.994,"end":308.785,"text":"那在這個部分對於未來如果我們真的無法像剛剛一群副署長所提到的我們無法接受參與這個實際的這個討論的話"},{"start":313.73,"end":333.41,"text":"就是類似聯合國這樣的角色的時候那我們如何從疫苗的研發疫情當中的一些物資的儲備還有這個資訊的流通取得還有相關的研究這方面如何能夠讓國人也非常安心的知道即使我們不具有官方的這種"},{"start":335.913,"end":337.896,"text":"請讓國人安心知道我們努力的方向"},{"start":351.138,"end":371.225,"text":"好謝謝王委員我先以我過去多年來從SARS以及到COVID這幾年帶領團隊在全國的EJ在看配合政府在看這個COVID的一個經驗其實我們"},{"start":374.352,"end":390.421,"text":"我們的體系的韌性算相當的好所以大概都能夠早期在各個角落都能夠早期的detect到相關的信息或者實際上的個案其實像在海關"},{"start":391.642,"end":403.362,"text":"這也非常的辛苦他們鎖住每一個可能性到現在還是非常到現在還是非常的辛苦都日以繼夜在做這個我真的非常要感佩的這個"},{"start":405.603,"end":405.623,"text":"韓國媒體報導"},{"start":435.923,"end":459.319,"text":"像我在全國醫師公會主持過至少50場以上的全國各縣市的全國防疫會議和帶給全國分享全國的怎麼樣在第一線來防疫我想這個也是奠立掉很好的一個防疫的韌性所以未來相關的一些新興的疾病我相信台灣是很有實力來"},{"start":461.361,"end":476.421,"text":"來找期來偵測來守住但是大流行公園是一個大家這個好像是世界大家庭所應該共同來分享臺灣這樣的一個優等生卻不能進去這個教室去分享這個連世界醫師會都寫信給WHA的"},{"start":479.224,"end":495.655,"text":"律師長說這是一種羞恥的事情沒有讓臺灣這優等生進去分享當然我們也沒有那麼驕傲說去分享還有很多是要互相學習的但是總是要進去教事這個也是我們努力的方向我不曉得易經律師長有沒有要補充"},{"start":497.697,"end":512.257,"text":"呃簡單跟委員補充我想兩點第一個就是我們持續厚植我們國內防疫的一個基礎啦不管是防疫物資或者是疫苗藥品的一些準備那另外就國際幫我們善盡責任這個大流行公園是希望說能夠談出一個成果"},{"start":512.697,"end":512.977,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":538.208,"end":553.728,"text":"好 謝謝很期待台灣作為一個全球重要防疫的第一線我們希望能夠把握這樣的機會也能夠充分的參與好 謝謝再過來要麻煩這個外交部有關於"},{"start":555.089,"end":583.446,"text":"如何能夠兩個部會之間相關的配合不曉得陳市長對於以價值外交來推動參與WHA或者是同步的透過臺灣這個醫療的實力有辦法讓全球知道說我們的這個衛生價值還有外交價值事實上是可以同步來運作讓世界可以看得到而且更願意來接納臺灣"},{"start":585.502,"end":605.143,"text":"謝謝委員您剛剛的這個質詢我們非常同意有就是說您剛剛所提到說因為我們本來就是一個極度重視而且非常努力去實踐提升關於法治人權自由民主的一個國家那尤其我們在公共醫療體系這樣的努力跟成果而且又是全世界"},{"start":605.763,"end":624.547,"text":"上任責任的一個義務的一個一份子所以當然未來我們在推動我們的外交工作裡面的一個主軸除了說同盟外交經貿外交以外就是價值外交那我們能夠其實在這個工作上面可以把這兩個相互結合也就是價值外交裡面一定有包含"},{"start":625.047,"end":635.963,"text":"我們所謂這個我們在公衛醫療體系上面的能量對這個世界的貢獻因為本來就是所謂的人權裡面就有健康的基本人權這是全世界都應該要重視台灣當然也可以貢獻"},{"start":636.837,"end":658.314,"text":"好 謝謝其實這一次我有利用去到瑞士的機會也陪同我們的國民健康署的衛副署長去UICC就是世界抗癌聯盟一起去報告我們台灣在有關癌症的整個防護還有整個癌症"},{"start":659.074,"end":660.835,"text":"謝謝王建旭委員那我們現在休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"153582","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153582","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9851195b24b7234cf5a6cabf0dc0d1a8b768f95e3d087843c22578c400887c275c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:49:12 - 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by one，要怎麼樣面對他們來提升他們的競爭力，就像部長所說的，用AI這樣的概念來提升他們，但是每一個產業所需要協助這樣的AI方向是不一樣的，我們for個別的案子，for個別的專案要怎麼樣去協助，我覺得這樣子整個企業才會往上提升，他們才會有感，才不會擔心、害怕他們什麼時候成為下一波被終止做關稅減讓的對象，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，3個月內我們一定會提出一份報告給委員。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員，謝謝部長。","接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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部長好 想請教一下因為我們看到最近中國又在5月31號公告說要終止ECFA部分產品的關稅減讓然後這一次終止的部分總共有134項在第一次終止關稅減讓的部分"},{"start":44.667,"end":44.807,"text":"陳亭妃議員"},{"start":65.509,"end":71.053,"text":"所涉及的範圍就比較大了那在這個部分有很多都是我們的傳產那要請問一下這個衝擊我們準備好了嗎要怎麼去應對"},{"start":92.61,"end":113.459,"text":"這個ECFA的問題我想這個不是第一次所以這應該是第二次所以在之前我們都有所準備所以我們盤點過了以後這134項的部分其實它的影響我們在看起來就整體出口的影響並不是很大但是就如同委員您所指教的它是傳統產業我們認為就是應該要幫助它趕快轉移市場脫離這一個比較不是那麼"},{"start":121.863,"end":123.663,"text":"部長,為什麼用這個問題來問你?因為我們知道你來自企業界"},{"start":142.728,"end":166.865,"text":"所以你對於整個目前整個企業競爭我相信你比誰都能夠掌握那在這個區塊因為他在這一次雖然134項像你所講的如果你統整起來其實對我們出口所有的能量影響並不大那我們現在統計起來大概影響多少來我們"},{"start":171.787,"end":173.028,"text":"佔我們對全世界出口的2%"},{"start":187.284,"end":211.778,"text":"因為這些面對的是傳產所以我們傳產其實我知道臺南有很多隱形產業他們早就把市場都轉移了他們並沒有把雞蛋放在中國所以對於這些產業我們更應該全力支持所以我們今天所看到的訊息跟資料雖然在6月15號"},{"start":213.599,"end":217.502,"text":"他們將終止第二次的一個關稅減讓134項可是統計起來影響出口的才2%好"},{"start":225.834,"end":249.549,"text":"部長就像您所說的我們現在趕快轉移市場也就是把這影響的2%怎麼樣去分散這相關的風險我們要怎麼協助他我們要怎麼來幫忙他這我們有一套的辦法了嗎我們已經有一套辦法好那怎麼去協助基本上我們是基於鼓勵這個"},{"start":251.935,"end":256.002,"text":"這些業者他出口的部分當然我們會稍微彌補他一下因為"},{"start":257.551,"end":259.993,"text":"所以你們有盤點出來說這2%受影響的是哪些產業而且是哪些項目跟目標這些都有了嗎"},{"start":282.995,"end":284.896,"text":"請問對於這後面的部分我們也有準備好了嗎"},{"start":303.568,"end":330.416,"text":"我們會開始來準備趕快來計算一下子然後先跟這些業者能夠做一些溝通然後請他們提升他自己的這個商品轉型對轉型然後幫他因為這個市場不會說只有中國啦是所以任何一個商品我們大概就可以離開中國還可以找到新的市場我想這個在全球上面不會說只有在中國的市場"},{"start":330.776,"end":330.896,"text":"謝謝委員：陳亭妃"},{"start":354.383,"end":354.583,"text":"陳亭妃"},{"start":374.835,"end":389.41,"text":"我們已經有掌控了他第二次就是這2%受影響的那我們要趕快積極協助讓他們有感而不是現在手足無措這是重點好那我們要再去看"},{"start":390.571,"end":417.972,"text":"預防因為中國他要做什麼動作你真的不知道而且我說的我們是一個遇到惡鄰居這個惡鄰居隨時就會干擾那我們要面對說他的干擾我們還可以立於不敗之地也就是要協助我們產業轉型我們不預期說他第三次會有多少又去終止關稅減讓可是我們先針對這些後續"},{"start":420.612,"end":446.909,"text":"我們要怎麼幫他轉型盤整一下那部長請問這個盤整需要多久的時間我想我們會透過這一次AI的這個整頓這個AI可以幫助百工百業我想提更效率降低節能減碳的這個效能這個是大家很清楚的所以我們會快速的特別是對中小企業跟這個傳產"},{"start":448.946,"end":469.95,"text":"我們希望透過這個機構的力量然後來幫助他們先提升他的競爭力我認為只有提升他的競爭力他路才走得更遠所以我要離開中國這個市場那他必須要更有競爭力進到第二個市場所以提升競爭力我個人認為這個是我們勢在必行"},{"start":472.951,"end":472.991,"text":"﹚陳亭妃"},{"start":490.031,"end":490.071,"text":"陳亭妃"},{"start":505.287,"end":505.447,"text":"﹚陳亭妃﹚"},{"start":534.949,"end":535.75,"text":"三個月內提出報告"}]}},{"id":"153580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98654fe4f87afa5057e41b4d0ae556a0d968f95e3d087843c2182b4fe05a42b6325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:44:12 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10:55:33","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:44:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:55:33+08:00","duration":681,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":30,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-30"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時44分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝部長，大家辛苦了。打詐四法一定要加速立法，我們都希望在這個會期能夠來完成，讓科技的打詐能夠執法有據，同時來確保、保障國人抗詐的能力也要再提升。","我一直認為我們要進入修法之前，其實我們要對於目前詐欺罪的案件各案類來進行分析，才能夠有效診斷出最有效的利器是什麼，我手上呢，我花了一些時間去分析，我手上拿的是2016到2020、2021所整理的詐欺罪案件統計分析，部長，您知道有這個資料嘛，這個是法務部做統整的。我們就就教於您，我在分析這整份資料裡頭，看到詐欺罪的案件逐年攀升，而且已經躍居各類刑案之冠，如果以2020年開始來看的話，就在這關鍵的2020年，詐欺案已經是躍升各類刑案之首，這是一個關鍵年。而且2020開始到2021，是快幅度的來增加，到現在已經2021年就有高達12萬4,899件，它已經到六位數了，所以一年間增加了5.8%，一年間就增加了3萬6,940件，所以這個趨勢是快幅的往上走，從2020年開始。而詐欺罪的平均年增率，也是所有刑事案件裡頭最高的，高達18.6%。所以你要不要分析一下這個趨勢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確詐欺案件，因為詐團的詐欺手法不斷的翻新，而且他們會結合新科技的發展，所以變成說它的趨勢才會有這樣的……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以一個是新興工具的運用嘛，所以我們也要跟進我們的新興打詐工具。","第二個，其實是讓他們直接食髓知味，覺得有利可圖嘛，所以他們才會快速的，讓很多人加入詐欺犯的犯行。","我們來看看喔，詐欺罪案件逐年攀升之外，再細一步分析，電信詐欺是所有案件中占比居冠的，這五年來，詐欺罪總共偵結了50萬7,859人，當中63%就是電信詐欺恐嚇案，電信詐欺恐嚇案當中，單純提供人頭帳戶占了將近六成、19萬人最多，這是最輕的一種，他就是可能被拐、被騙，可能覺得貪圖小利，也很好賺，所以六成是單純提供人頭帳戶的這一類。","另外一類叫做車手，單純作為車手，五年間從3,300人增加三倍多，到12萬，它成長的速度是最快的，尤其這個車手，我又進一步去找了資料，單純作為車手的部分，它是詐欺罪裡頭年齡最輕的一個族群，平均只有27歲，所以二十六、七歲的人，大家都去做車手，就好賺，就有利可圖，所以從我這個分析，你又告訴我們，我們要該怎麼來檢視我們的作為？以電信詐欺恐嚇罪，然後提供人頭帳戶的最多，然後做車手的人也很多，然後都是年輕人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們在法制上，我們要跟得上腳步，尤其是我們偵查的方法，既然用科技的方法來詐欺，那我們就要與時俱進，也要……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我們的GPS的系統……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是最起碼的一個授權。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，這也是我的解讀，我們要能夠診斷出狀況，才能夠找出解方嘛。","再來我分析詐欺罪起訴的比例，這幾年來、五年來，起訴的比例是21.9%，不起訴的比例是45%，而電信詐欺類起訴比例是28%，當中最高的就是車手這一類，59%，那你要不要再分析一下，這樣的數字用在我們的相關修法，給我們什麼樣的示警跟參考？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以車手來看的話，我們的起訴率最高，因為車手，第一個他是跟被害人接觸，以及拿到錢的人就是車手，所以這部分我們可以用我們科偵法草案第二條，就是可以用GPS追蹤那個車手的軌跡，然後順向可以往他的上手去追查。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以現在在沒有一個科偵法之前，也沒有通保法的配套之前，確實不起訴率是高達四成五，因為我們工具使用得少嘛﹗即便有些人你確認他就是犯嫌，可是你沒有東西去證明他有罪嘛，所以我們都同意這個立法的必要。","在進入條文前我要提醒，我手上的這一份資料，我覺得太重要了，可是統計的資料只到2021年，你們最新的、update的數據應當持續在做吧？而且我認為在打詐四法修法前應當要有最新的數據可以讓我們作為最強化參考的依據。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們目前已經統計到今年的4月了。"],["吳委員思瑤：還沒上網？資料在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員如果有需要，我們會後……"],["吳委員思瑤：會後提供給我們，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：因為這對於我們的修法、立法是很重要的參酌，因為我手上拿的資料只到2021年，所以我進一步建議，詐欺型態的分析還要再細分，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：這一類的分析還要再細分，你才能夠很清楚的面對不同的犯行有不同的工具去使用。","第二個，這整個統計分析欠缺被害人受害分析，譬如說哪一類的是最容易被騙，譬如現在那個名人炒股、名人代言是最容易被騙的，所以這整份資料目前都是針對犯行、犯罪者去做分析，對於受害人的部分，請問法務部有沒有這一類的分析？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關這個部分，因為統計分析沒有去照……因為以被告來講，對於行為人這邊，我們是以罪名來做一個分析……"],["吳委員思瑤：那你覺得有沒有必要針對受害者？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分在技術上會比較……"],["吳委員思瑤：或者我們跟內政部一起來處理嘛，對不對？我認為這個是大有必要的，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們再來研議如何擴大整個詐欺罪的統計分析，當然除了犯行者、加害者，對於被害人的被害原因等各類，我真的認為我們應當有這樣的data跟分析，才能夠交相運用，因為這對於我們如何去協助指導人民抗詐太重要了，你要歸結出哪些抗詐的方法、ABC，大家才能夠有所依循，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這個部分是不是能趕快在會後提供最新的數據？然後我要求針對案類的分析再細分，並且納入被害人的受害分析，給你們三個月的時間跨部會去處理，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。","接下來進入我們的打詐四法，我們卓院長說了，讓想騙的不敢騙、已經騙的會被抓、騙到手的沒得花，其實今天的科偵法聚焦的應當是哪一個階段？"],["鄭部長銘謙：被騙的……"],["吳委員思瑤：被騙的會被抓嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我個人是支持，因為我們內部也討論過很多次，依據我剛剛所分析的犯罪案型，我們要強化GPS來追車手，對不對？然後M化車可以有效的來定位機房，然後再搭配熱顯像儀來測溫救人，我基本上都同意，但是呢，它的聲請程序、通知程序、救濟程序以及刑事執行準用都要更嚴謹，在我們的法案裡頭，我也看到從第二條、第三條、第四條都有相關的規定，對於程序保障及人權保護也都盡可能去做了防護，當然有在野黨委員認為是不是還會造成人權戕害，我們在逐條的時候可以進一步商議！","我們來看一下最高法院110年度台上字第4549號判決的見解，我想部長應該知道這個判決，也正是因為M化車欠缺法律授權基礎，違反法律保留原則，這讓我們更清楚看到我們需要科偵法，我們需要一個具體的法制作業來同時兼顧憲法第二十二條在保障隱私權跟資訊自主權的範圍內，但是又賦予我們行政權限辦案應當有的一個授權，最好的方法就是立法來授權嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，希望有授權。"],["吳委員思瑤：最後，所以也可以去補強之前剛剛我所講的，有高達四成五是沒有被起訴，就是因為很多已經採證但是在法院被認為它的證據能力是有疑義的，這也是我們立法、修法的必要性嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，委員說的是，所以我們科偵法就是要讓這些科技偵查的手段能夠得到法律的授權，我想對打詐應該很有助益。"],["吳委員思瑤：讓實質破獲所掌握的證據具有法律賦予的證據能力，可以協助在後續的審判上定罪，而且我更認為可以讓我們執法同仁的士氣得到提振，否則他們查了一堆案、辦了一些人，然後最後到法官那裡卻是沒有辦法起訴、沒有辦法定罪，這對大家來講是一個很大的打擊，尤其這些人未來都會再回去做同樣的詐欺行為，他就持續成為集團的一員，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：不好意思，我以為有加2分鐘的時間，所以時間用得比較多。好，我們到逐條的時候再就未盡之處來做討論，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝鄭部長。","接下來請吳委員宗憲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-30","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","黃國昌","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案","agenda_id":"1135601_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.87846875,"end":5.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.35846875,"end":12.484718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.484718750000003,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.754718750000002,"end":31.620968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.228468750000005,"end":75.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.62909375,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.84846875,"end":60.93284375},{"s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提升啊下一頁"},{"start":32.265,"end":46.74,"text":"那我一直認為我們要進入修法之前其實我們要對於目前的詐欺罪的案件各案類來進行分析才能夠有效診斷出最有效的利器是什麼"},{"start":47.521,"end":75.339,"text":"那我手上呢我花了一些時間去分析喔我手上拿的是2016到2020、2021所整理的詐欺罪案件統計分析部長您知道這個資料嗎這個是我們法務部來統整的那我們就就教於您喔我在分析這整份資料裡頭看到詐欺罪的案件逐年攀升而且已經躍居各類刑案之冠"},{"start":76.38,"end":80.042,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 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案"},{"start":532.546,"end":549.223,"text":"然後再搭配這個熱血象儀來測溫救人我基本上都同意但是呢他的申請程序通知程序救濟程序以及形式執行準用都要更嚴謹就在我們的法案裡頭下頁"},{"start":550.871,"end":566.827,"text":"那我也看到我們從第二條第三條第四條都有相關的對於程序保障對於人權保護也都盡可能去做了防護當然有賽業黨委員認為是不是還會造成人權強害我們在逐條的時候可以來進一步的商議喔下一頁"},{"start":568.464,"end":585.224,"text":"所以說這個最高法院110年度的有一個4549號的判決見解啦我想部長應該知道這個這個判決嗎也正是因為M化車欠缺了法律授權的基礎違反了法律保留的原則這讓我們更清楚看到我們需要科證法"},{"start":585.865,"end":603.29,"text":"我們需要一個具體的法制作業來同時兼顧憲法22條保障隱私權跟資訊自主權的範圍內但是又賦予我們行政權限辦案應當有的一個授權最好的方法就是立法來授權嘛好最後"},{"start":604.747,"end":606.408,"text":"錢防制法及保障法草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":630.39,"end":637.646,"text":"科技偵查的這些的手段這些的能夠得到法律的授權我想對打戰應該很有注意的"},{"start":639.46,"end":665.55,"text":"讓實質破獲所掌握的證據他具有法律賦予的證據能力可以協助他在後續的審判上定罪他而且我更認為可以讓我們執法同仁他的士氣可以受到提振否則我查了一堆案辦了一些人然後最後到法官那裡覺得沒有辦法起訴沒有辦法定罪就對大家來講是一個很大的打擊尤其這些人未來都會再回去再做同樣的"},{"start":666.71,"end":668.673,"text":"錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案 案。"}]}},{"id":"153579","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153579","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c9854cd265fd7ab56e005d12856443da96968f95e3d087843c252c7019b845b5da65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:42:37 - 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(AI)推動現況與未來\n方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.695968750000002,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.032843750000001,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.36159375,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.30659375,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.32346875,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.824718750000002,"end":41.307218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.67846875,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.88909375,"end":45.087218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.09971875,"end":61.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.734718750000006,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.54034375,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.96534375,"end":97.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.78346875000001,"end":103.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.59284375,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.72784375,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.43596875,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.56221875000001,"end":124.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.78096875000001,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.27784375,"end":122.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.97784375,"end":192.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.06409375,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.97284375,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.03159375,"end":300.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.69659375,"end":250.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.82284375,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.04596875000001,"end":255.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.11034375,"end":317.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.33596875,"end":316.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.36971875,"end":316.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.53409375,"end":341.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.22159375,"end":319.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.25534375,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.14971875000003,"end":320.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.03971875,"end":323.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.66096875,"end":352.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.95534375,"end":349.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.84971875,"end":350.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.54971875,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.95471875000004,"end":357.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.90784375000004,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.86846875000003,"end":369.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.05784375,"end":369.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.40784375000004,"end":370.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.77909375,"end":392.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.11284375,"end":399.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.22159375,"end":434.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.93846875,"end":403.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":435.15284375000005,"end":442.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.91534375000003,"end":443.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.26971875000004,"end":460.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.65096875,"end":477.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.62034375,"end":468.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.67909375000005,"end":469.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.62721875000005,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.37721875000005,"end":485.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.55659375000005,"end":497.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.03159375,"end":536.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.6203437500001,"end":521.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.9765937500001,"end":548.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.74284375,"end":563.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.4597187500001,"end":552.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.24409375,"end":553.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.50409375,"end":575.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.02971875,"end":599.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.57284375,"end":582.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.55534375,"end":587.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.49159375,"end":590.03159375},{"spe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主委不好意思我還是要提到一下前主委齁那個人工智慧基本法預計在今年年底推出那這是他說的齁那這個上個月主委您更是直接承諾要力拼今年10月底送進行政院請問目前草案研擬的進度有沒有方向有哪些方向什麼時候進行預告"},{"start":46.124,"end":64.577,"text":"我們這個月就在進行各界的溝通我們會開三場的諮詢會議包含跟產業界跟政府的各單位還有法輪學術界要做溝通10月要送進行政院8月可以預告吧8月可以預告"},{"start":65.523,"end":87.58,"text":"社會大眾不只是關注這個人工智慧基本法是因為今年3月13日歐盟已經通過了人工智慧法案我想這個等於未來要跟歐盟做生意AI的相關產業都需要遵守相關的規定否則無法進入市場本期就想先請問一下主委是否瞭解AI相關產業的產值有多少會輸出到歐盟的佑戰多少"},{"start":88.881,"end":114.678,"text":"AI相關產業的產值是很難估計啦因為各種不同的應用你要把它的產值都加進來它其實相當的高那輸出到歐盟的占比呢你是講委員是講這個光是講硬體的部分還是因為台灣的輸出主要台灣的輸出主要是以硬體為主啦對到歐盟的有多少大概但是硬體其實我們直接供應的還是以美國的廠商為主美國廠商為主"},{"start":115.919,"end":139.952,"text":"以廠商為主,所以這一部分直接到歐盟的數量是比較少的但是確實的數字可能經濟部才會比較清楚沒關係沒關係我現在想要跟你探討的是另外一個層面本席因為會這樣子問的原因是國際上針對AI治理本來就有兩種做法那一種是歐盟這種嚴格治理的模式提出監管的一個立法法案另外一種是美國、日本、英國"},{"start":143.975,"end":158.666,"text":"提供相關的指導原則與技術標準吳前主委有表示台灣不會走歐盟的路線而是朝日本、美國、英國的鼓勵創新的模式來做規劃但上個月有委員問您的立場您的回答是"},{"start":159.787,"end":161.229,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":180.912,"end":192.345,"text":"主張走中間路線控制的剛剛好那這樣子的算是控制的剛剛好的話那是不是一半符合歐盟一半不符合歐盟您可以給本席回答一下嗎"},{"start":193.186,"end":214.211,"text":"是 這個問題很好 我想我們前主委的態度非常清楚是因為台灣的產業其實跟美國這些主要的產商 這個禮拜的委員也看得到主要往來 是主要往來 所以我們的產業發展為主的話就是以美國所訂定的這些法規的方向為參考的對象"},{"start":216.672,"end":237.172,"text":"剛剛委員有提醒說在歐盟非常重視人權的這種法規的這種制定的方向其實我們的民眾也是非常期待我們也了解到說現在利用AI來做這個不好的事情詐騙、假訊息等等這些也是民眾深入痛覺的所以我們也會兼顧這部分"},{"start":239.093,"end":255.03,"text":"所以我想沒有對錯啦前主委跟現在您主委的一個態度我覺得沒有對錯只有好用跟更好用我們只是要善加提醒任何一個方案都可以但是就是要以最大台灣利益為考量"},{"start":255.771,"end":275.652,"text":"我想如果要走歐盟的模式大家都知道那個非常嚴格的限定而且AI法案將人工智慧又把技術上分成不可接受風險的等級然後還有需額外遵守安全規範的高風險等級承受的一個透明度義務有限或低風險的一個等級我想國科會是否有盤點"},{"start":276.633,"end":294.767,"text":"目前台灣AI產業發展有哪些屬於不可接受風險的等級高風險的等級以及有限或低風險的等級因為一旦踩到這一個罰款的紅線可能是從3500萬歐元跟全球營業額的7%到750萬歐元或營業額1.5%不等有沒有掌握這一類"},{"start":302.51,"end":306.892,"text":"這部分的業務我想我們將來我們數位發展部會依照委員這樣的這個意見我們會來進行就是盤點我們的產業數位發展部也是牽涉到我們的AI產業發展所以我們會來盤點"},{"start":317.557,"end":341.208,"text":"我們就是善意提醒沒有要拷倒你們只是希望一定要多加注意啦好不好請問規劃中的人工智慧基本法是否也有針對政府部分來做規範像目前行政院所屬機關使用深層式AI的參考指引就只有針對深層式AI的內容進行規範而沒有針對利用人工智慧系統來進行的社會評分預防犯罪以及行為操控的相關規定"},{"start":343.074,"end":362.485,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們在政府部門在AI基本法我們會做一些這個很重要的這個所以目前還沒做目前目前還好對都是提醒的那幾點我想我今天所提醒的剛好都是沒有做的部分那沒關係您的笑容非常燦爛也展現出誠意"},{"start":365.086,"end":392.452,"text":"沒有做我們趕緊補上我們會補上好不好這個部分可以嗎謝謝委員謝謝你好那另外呢歐盟以一般資料保護規則GDPR為例他不只規範企業也規範政府台灣個資法的主管機關原本是國發會為了因應GDPR所以成立了個人資料保護委員會的籌備處如果按照相同的道理我們是否也應該設立一個人工智慧治理保護委員會的方向思考"},{"start":394.144,"end":409.833,"text":"我們會來研議一下委員的這個意見相當有深度好 這也是一個建議啦但是我想都是有脈絡的所以我們才會做這樣子的一個探討那 諸位您應該有聽過數位落差"},{"start":411.914,"end":434.543,"text":"有聽過當然AI也會面臨相對應的一個問題我們的孩子是否擁有或者是會使用AI我覺得這會是未來一個新的課題也會成為新的不平等所以以後也會有一個AI落差以後可能會有會AI跟不會AI的兩個群體的差距要怎麼改善這之間的一個差距未來有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":435.222,"end":456.993,"text":"未來我們會跟教育部來合作希望能夠從教育端包含從大中小學能夠盡量把AI這種比較屬於科普的這種課程能夠拿到教育那對於這個民眾我們在產業推廣的時候我們會進行各行各業的這個產業推廣希望能夠減少這個數位落差"},{"start":460.697,"end":476.354,"text":"AI的落差以及高職以及國中他們能不能重視AI這是我未來非常關注重要的一個課題我要先跟你講喔那我先請問一下次長喔次長那個部長上任的時候有規劃說要設立AI生態園區目前規劃為何?"},{"start":477.825,"end":497.345,"text":"跟委員報告首先當然AI生態園區這個概念當然還是在提出階段我們在跟國發會有沒有考慮在台中設立我們部長強調主要是生態而不是園區因為對於這個AI產業來講大多數的產業都是在線上進行的所以它需要的是資料、算力跟演算法"},{"start":498.166,"end":513.845,"text":"我們會優先從這方面來投資而不是投資土地或廠房所以就我們的觀點來看的話我們會對全台灣跟AI有相關的產業都盡量把它串聯起來好 那我還是要說台中有土地水南園區以及它有一個創研用地"},{"start":515.206,"end":532.117,"text":"交通方便、位置適中、居住人口也年輕相關產業人才皆有也希望你能夠考量為使AI的一個應用發展可信任度、安全且可靠所以規劃必須通過數位部的一個AI評測業者才能販售或使用AI系統請問國內制度是否有參考國際相關的規範目前規劃的評測類型項目又是哪些"},{"start":537.68,"end":560.337,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是說我們現在評測當然不是一個強制性的是一個鼓勵性質的第二個就是說我們所參考的標準包括歐盟的以及美國NIST就是這個美國資源院的我們希望你們能夠參考國外的相關案例我們會跟國際的標準接軌好不好最後我想這個數位部在今天的報告有提到在高中值開設AI課程請問辦理的狀況為何整體開設的比例有多高"},{"start":563.619,"end":567.401,"text":"目前這些課程我想這個偏鄉還有高中值的開設狀況這都是我們所關注的那與哪些企業及培訓單位合作我們也很想知道是不是會以後能夠提供相關的資料給我們"},{"start":589.654,"end":598.246,"text":"我們更希望能夠讓所有的孩子都有機會能夠參與到加強宣傳所以資料給我我也來幫忙宣傳嘛好不好我們一起為教育努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153578","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153578","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98a6c693cd78309b4c7e99b63b7a11dbca68f95e3d087843c278a5c9863dd7f9805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:45:42 - 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邀請我們主委主委請兩位好"},{"start":10.407,"end":32.698,"text":"主任好,三班護病筆大家都非常的關心因為身體健康,我們龍總呢,佔了非常重要的一個角色所以因此呢,我們看到在醫療工會團體近期對於我們全台82家的醫院呢,超過500名的護理師做問卷調查當然我們也發現護病筆仍舊未達標"},{"start":36.019,"end":61,"text":"當然剛剛在北龍這個陳院長的答覆當中我們的平均值是7%多我們也給予肯定但是有一個問題要請主委注意也就是在我們所設的3所的這個農民總醫院12所的我們農民總醫院的分院那目前目前我們看到一個數字也就是離潮率"},{"start":61.801,"end":77.808,"text":"林一超律師11%我也就這個問題提出也請我們這個相關的這個院所大家注意我們要怎麼樣能夠留住人才我剛剛有歡喜聽到陳院長說今年你們還會有200多位"},{"start":79.189,"end":79.749,"text":"主委您的看法"},{"start":105.435,"end":107.897,"text":"主委你現在回答會讓我嚇一跳,你要怎麼提高他們的待遇?"},{"start":127.418,"end":154.173,"text":"我是九一保健處處長平均11%而且這個數字是往上升的那個是之前就是111年112年但是今年我們113年第一季平均總院現在目前離職率大概2.3%當然我們有一連關的措施薪水我們當然是很注意有時候就是跟著調整但是薪水並不是唯一的因素現在我們總院都"},{"start":155.073,"end":174.445,"text":"致力在改善整個職場的環境謝謝你所以你得到的訊息2點多吧這是這一季所以本席把這個離潮率加入你們在管控的這個因子我們一起加油好不好接下來本席要跟你討論的是從111年我們規劃這個辦理專業即職官兵專案徵才活動那這平均3年來你們媒介了79點多"},{"start":185.852,"end":209.773,"text":"那透過了這樣子的一個機制你們發給了這個12個月的這個這個津貼來鼓勵留任職場這個就是我希望的好不容易進來之後我們必須不要讓他再離職那你要怎麼樣穩定他所以本席也給你結錄到目前4月份的時候呢你們大概是有3萬人左右"},{"start":210.413,"end":228.86,"text":"那本席在你的報告書當中我也看到一個訊息很好你說你們會比照美國跟韓國的做法跟國防部研議來建置軍職職能的這個基準喔還有你們要用軍職的專長來銜接民間的這個職業這樣子的一個對照系統這個本席非常贊成"},{"start":236.903,"end":262.828,"text":"所以本席要請教嚴主委你們有了這個方向去調整因為現在民間有很多需要專技人才民間找不到這些專技人才但是我們退伍的我們可以說是他也沒有辦法去媒介到民間的這些職場所以這個動作是非常好那本席要請教你們大概預估你的KPI多久時間"},{"start":264.529,"end":270.733,"text":"委員會讓我們新的退役官兵有受益到,請做說明委員好,我是邱學金副處長,我們預定軍職職能的建制要跟國防部來協調,所以我們下個月就會進一步去洽談"},{"start":282.082,"end":282.542,"text":"這個非常重要 諸位"},{"start":309.136,"end":326.145,"text":"因為本席非常讚許這個方案因為民間我再次重複民間有很多專技人員然後我們訓練的都是非常的井南有序的是國家的競爭力非常重要所以我們也期許你們預估"},{"start":327.225,"end":354.225,"text":"一年在一萬五千人的退役官兵你能夠媒介成功九千五到一萬進入到我們民間市場我也希望你們透過各個除了國防部談好之後透過各個縣市的公測會它可以有很多的媒介大家直接介上我們的民間這個公司好嗎達到一個三一的政策好嗎謝謝委員謝謝我們談了沒有公司"}]}},{"id":"153577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98216fa021d8c09e6aa6cabf0dc0d1a8b768f95e3d087843c2b2462f6caa9091c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:39:50 - 10:49:10","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:39:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:49:10+08:00","duration":560,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":406,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時40分）主席，我想請郭部長。"],["主席：來，請郭部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：郭部長，您的上任對產業界來說是非常振奮的消息，過去8年來臺灣主管經濟的兩個部長都是從經濟部文官體系上來的，所以您的上任可以說是讓整個經濟部都有耳目一新的感覺，大家都期待你有更務實、更貼近民意的作為，那你上任到現在已經兩個禮拜了，從產業界到政務官，你有什麼特別的感想嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，在這個時間可以說這個嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：可以啊！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝你，我當然感想很多啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：感想很多，很累嗎？有感覺累嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：累是不會啦！但是平時我在公司是我問人家，然後我現在當公務人員，變成是別人問我。"],["張委員嘉郡：您辛苦了！但是本席要特別提醒您，就是一定要注意一個東西，那就是小動物，像蛇、松鼠、鳥，你知道為什麼要注意這些東西嗎？因為這些小動物就是造成我們停電的主要原因，未來部長一定要詳細的查明。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：那對於臺灣未來經濟的擘劃，您是少數能夠明確具體來提出一個方向的部長，您說未來靠AI伺服器跟AI晶片可以讓臺灣經濟再發展50年，加上這幾天有AI教父──輝達的創辦人黃仁勳引來旋風，讓臺灣的AI產業可以說一時成為最熱門的議題，那對於AI產業的發展，部長認為我們臺灣目前所面臨的最大挑戰是什麼呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在面臨的最大挑戰就是熟悉AI這個領域的工程師太少。"],["張委員嘉郡：人才不足。"],["郭部長智輝：我們只會生產AI晶片，我們只會做AI伺服器，但是如何利用AI的能力，在這方面的工程師太少，所以它沒有辦法幫助我們百工百業，我剛才說AI如果做得好，AI的應用用得好，臺灣現有的百工百業都能夠導入AI這樣的一個tooling，那我相信可以幫助它更精準地去預估未來的情況，做出更正確的判斷，所以非常的需要這一類的工程師。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，據本席所瞭解，除了人才不足之外，我們用水、用電的能源供應問題也非常迫切的需要解決。根據統計，AI伺服器的耗電量大約是傳統伺服器的3至20倍，那在美國ChatGPT每天要耗損56萬度電，以臺灣夏季每戶平均用電14度電來計算的話，等於每天臺灣4萬戶的用電量。請問部長，目前AI在臺灣的用電量大嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：目前還不大。"],["張委員嘉郡：你說目前還不大，就是代表未來如果我們要大力發展AI產業，就會面臨供電不一定跟得上的情況，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：委員所說的是對的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，那我想要請問部長，假設AI訓練跟AI資料中心的用電，包括AI晶片的製造，都依照部長的規劃，而且這兩項產業都蓬勃發展的話，臺灣每年耗電要增加幾個百分比？好，沒關係，經濟部已經有預估答案，本席有拿到答案了，就是預估每年會增加3%的用電，在10年內要增加30%。您之前在參加媒體茶敘時有說用電是未來最大的變數，就是未來AI在2025年可能會有一個產業爆發期。我想要問部長的就是這個3%的預估值到底準不準確？你看一下，這是過去11年來用電增加的數據，增加2.9%，增加4.7%，增加2.8%，其實這個用電會增加3%的預估，我覺得有可能低估了，有可能遠遠超過3%，您覺得呢？如果蓬勃發展的話，是不是有可能？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，3%的預估是根據過去的歷史紀錄，平均1.8%，然後增加到3%。"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊！所以有可能其實會超過3%，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是也有可能如委員所指教的，可能會超過。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長是否知道下一座要除役的核電機組什麼時候除役嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：都知道。"],["張委員嘉郡：今年7月27號，就是不到兩個月以後，核三廠的一號機就要停止商轉了，再過一年，明年的5月17號，二號機也要停止商轉了，核三廠除役之後，大約會有6%至7%的用電缺口，再加上每年最基本保守估計要3%，我們從明年開始，每年會有10%的用電缺口，目前我們都是努力燒天然氣等等，部長知道這兩年來因為燒天然氣撥補了台電多少錢嗎？部長，您知道我們這三年來總共撥補了台電多少錢嗎？你不知道，我告訴你是4,001億，4,001億不是一個小數字喔！這個4,001億要多蓋一個核電廠都夠，但沒想到，我們補貼了4,001億之外，台電還虧損三千八百多億，所以我想要知道，部長剛剛在質詢裡面有講不支持公務預算繼續撥補，那您有沒有什麼看法要解決這個問題呢？"],["郭部長智輝：目前我因為剛到，才第18天，所以我還沒有那麼多的時間可以去思考。"],["張委員嘉郡：這個部分可能要拜託部長審慎地思考評估有沒有一個新的作為要來突破這個困難，因為目前核能每度電是1.1元，天然氣發電是它的三倍、3.09元，再生能源的話更貴，是5.47元，所以我也很好奇，為什麼我們不用便宜的、乾淨的能源呢？部長也會不會很納悶呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個問題我還在思考。"],["張委員嘉郡：等於是說有沒有可能爭取核三延役呢？如果核三延役可以為臺灣再爭取兩至三年的空間，部長有考慮過嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在核三的問題我們都有考慮，不過因為核三基於法令的規範，它一定要停役，然後要……"],["張委員嘉郡：可以修法啊！其實經濟部也可以主動提修法，經濟部有考慮主動來提出修法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，它停下來再復工大概要3年，這個要3年，所以我……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你現在還有時間喔！7月27號才要第一座機組停止，你現在趕快提出都還有機會，現在是你最關鍵的寶貴時間了。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，根據程序來講的話，它一定要停3年以後才可以再上來……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個是有機會可以討論的，我真心希望部長，您現在好好地……"],["郭部長智輝：因為一部機器……"],["張委員嘉郡：跟你的幕僚人員討論這個問題，因為在歐洲、在美國，其實它的核電機組是可以運營到40至60年的……"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們其實運營的時間只有它的一半，所以我覺得這是值得考慮的。另外台電慘賠4,000億是因為天然氣的價格提高，這是他們所說的。我們在一年前就已經回到戰前的價格水平了，但台電到目前為止還在繼續賠，到底我們買了什麼樣的天然氣合約？是不是可以請部長調閱相關資料並公布合約？過去台電也曾經被傳出購煤弊案，經濟部就曾經公布，這是有前例的，所以也請部長是不是能夠提供給本委員會相關的資料？"],["郭部長智輝：資料一定可以提供給委員。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員，部長，請回座休息。","接下來我們請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-15","speakers":["邱議瑩","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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這個經濟部已經有預估答案本席已經拿到答案了預估每年會增加3%的用電那10年內要增加30%那據您之前參加媒體查敘時你有表達說用電是未來最大的變數就是未來AI可能尤其在2025年可能會有一個產業爆發期那我想要問部長的就是說這3%的預估值"},{"start":269.923,"end":292.621,"text":"到底準不準確因為你看一下這是過去11年來的這個用電增加的這個數據那其實增加2.9增加4.7增加2.8其實這個用電說3%的預估我覺得有可能低估了有可能遠遠超過3%您覺得呢是不是有可能如果蓬勃發展的話那"},{"start":299.642,"end":314.085,"text":"是的,3%的預估是根據過去的歷史記錄,平均1.8%,然後增加到3%所以有可能其實是會超過3%的,對不對?這個委員所指教的,可能會超過"},{"start":315.256,"end":333.311,"text":"那部長知道說我們下一座要除役的機組是什麼時候要除役嗎就是核電的機組都知道今年7月27號就不到兩個月以後我們的核三廠的第1號機就要停止商轉了那再過一年明年的5月17號2號機也要停止商轉了"},{"start":336.394,"end":337.615,"text":"這兩年來我們因為燒天然氣撥補了台電多少錢嗎"},{"start":366.175,"end":370.205,"text":"部長,您知道我們總共這三年來撥補了台電多少錢嗎?"},{"start":371.826,"end":372.366,"text":"您有沒有什麼看法要解決這個問題呢?"},{"start":401.511,"end":419.13,"text":"這個目前我因為剛到才第18天所以我還沒有那麼多的時間可以去思考這個部分可能要拜託部長省慎的思考評估有沒有一個新的作為要來突破這個困難因為目前核能每度電是1.1元天然氣發電是他的3倍3.09元那這個"},{"start":422.193,"end":431.978,"text":"在生能源的話更貴是5.47元那所以我也很好奇說為什麼我們不用便宜的乾淨的能源呢部長也會不會覺得很納悶呢這個問題我還在思考就是等於是說有沒有可能爭取核三研議呢如果核三研議可以為台灣再爭取兩次三年的空間部長有考慮過嗎"},{"start":450.527,"end":472.045,"text":"現在河山的問題是我們都有考慮了不過因為河山基於這個法令的這個規範他一定要這個停議是可以修法其實經濟部也可以主動提修法經濟部有考慮說主動來提出修法嗎跟委員報告就是說他停下來再付大概要三年"},{"start":473.288,"end":475.15,"text":"根據程序來講的話 那麼他一定要停3年以後才可以再上案"},{"start":494.029,"end":517.182,"text":"這個是有機會可以討論的我真心希望說部長您現在好好的跟您的幕僚人員討論這個問題因為在歐洲在美國其實他的核電機組是可以運營到40至60年的那我們其實運營的時間只有他的一半所以我覺得這是值得討論的那另外喔台電產賠4千億是因為天然氣的價格提高這是他們所說的"},{"start":521.644,"end":549.486,"text":"那但是我們在一年前就已經回落到戰前的這個價格水平了但我們台電到目前為止還在繼續賠到底我們買了什麼樣子的天然氣合約是不是可以請部長調閱相關資料並公佈合約過去台電也被曾經傳出說購買的弊案那經濟部就曾經公佈這是有潛力的所以也請部長是不是能夠提供給本委員會相關的資料"},{"start":551.909,"end":552.25,"text":"張嘉郡議員"}]}},{"id":"153576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98f329d9e604560f1e84a12a82c262ca1068f95e3d087843c26367c9c5a82321895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:36:54 - 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多算了 我們很落實在每一場43場 那以前的算法我是不太清楚 你不太清楚 但是這43場絕對都是貨真 真的就是做下來 這次 真的有談有會議記錄的 有會議記錄 那我請那個 你再回去交代同仁 過去那71場是不是也可以告訴本委員會 有沒有會議記錄"},{"start":118.86,"end":135.815,"text":"還是這一些其實是宣稱的不過這個會議紀錄是有沒有是可以來講但是有些都是外交的那個機密雙邊會談就是說裡面的內容要做什麼有嗎那個外交部今天是"},{"start":137.323,"end":160.131,"text":"因為有很多的國家連照相都不跟我們照相。那所以是私下會談?沒有,但是也是正式會談,但是不照相、不公開的。就是說在你們外交部的記錄裡面,這一些的雙邊會談的記錄可不可以對外公開?有沒有留下記錄?可不可以提供給委員?"},{"start":162.163,"end":187.977,"text":"這一點謝謝委員剛剛提出的這個疑問那有關於我們過去有這麼多場跟人家的互動那麼是不是有涉及外交上的考量我們當然第一個要先瞭解說對方是不是同意公布因為這個有這個對方的要求的問題那如果說是可以公布的然後內容不涉及機敏的我們回去調查一下然後再給委員一個答覆好提供給委員參考不是對新聞媒體是給委員參考好不好"},{"start":188.617,"end":212.152,"text":"我也希望了解情況那另外一個呢我想要問的就是之前這個薛部長在的時候他一直提到說今年的WHA大會很重要是一個有關於大流行公約的一個相關的討論跟簽署但是在今天的報告裡面這個邱部長只字未提有關於大流行公約那這個部分到底我們在這一次裡面"},{"start":212.832,"end":213.353,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":227.825,"end":244.257,"text":"新冠之後大家對這個部分大家如何去分享知識這個其實是很重要的機制喔那這個部分因為今天報告裡面完全沒有提到這個部長是不是可以補充跟大家報告一下有沒有什麼成果我先報告一下齁就是大流行公約是針對齁"},{"start":245.798,"end":245.898,"text":"臺灣絕對不能"},{"start":268.225,"end":296.04,"text":"所以從一開始我們就用盡各種辦法來爭取不管是用觀察員的角度或者用學術甚至用教育用各種角度一直在努力但是就是因為他的議題太多太爭議所以他今年是沒有通過還要在這一點當中會再討論我們會在這一點當中用盡各種辦法來參與那我想一經那個副市長要不要做補充"},{"start":296.26,"end":296.867,"text":"好來副處長補充"},{"start":298.506,"end":327.181,"text":"簡單跟委員補充就是這次我們有辦一個論壇所以有請到對這個中越非常有專精的美國學者以及國內的專家來一起討論那他確實是因為目前在這個資源分享還有那個一些技術面的問題沒有辦法達成共識所以已經宣布延長一年的談判時間那我們會在這一年當中透過多元的管道來就是針對身份加入的部分還有一些實質參與還有提供建議的部分來努力謝謝"},{"start":327.921,"end":355.337,"text":"那有沒有把握我們可以用觀察員的身份來加入到目前為止你們的評估是困難重重還是有機會以他目前現有的文字的話要參與是非常困難的因為他他裡頭是用這個也是用會員國這樣的一個名稱他不是有經濟體嗎沒有沒有他目前就是那個文字部分當然在未來一年當中是還有可能再去做一些調整但是目前來講就是用這個身份參與的話應該是相當的困難"},{"start":357.398,"end":383.284,"text":"他都是採會員國就是好那這個部分我們當然希望站在防疫的角度我們積極去爭取希望我們可以跟全球同步可以來交流這樣的一個跟疾病防治有關的相關的資訊這個部長在帶領相關討論繼續努力接下來我要問一個現在大家很關注的上午其實也有委員已經問到就是關床的一個問題那這個部分本席發現說"},{"start":384.784,"end":409.17,"text":"好像從衛福部的角度你們看都沒有問題護理人員也在增加都沒有問題但是從實務上面現在爆發出來的如果一個區域醫院他關閉三層的病床這個其實是非常嚴重的問題因為背後代表有很多的病人他沒有辦法及時的得到病床那甚至現在如果有一些醫院開刀午後不開刀"},{"start":411.731,"end":436.559,"text":"這個影響的其實都是病人的權益但是從衛福部的報告裡面跟回應好像覺得問題不大部長你認為這個問題大還是不大我認為只要有任何一個病人他的健康需要照顧我們沒有及時跟他照顧都是大問題所以當然只要有"},{"start":438.235,"end":442.776,"text":"因為可以加強我沒有去加強的我們都一定要馬上來改善"},{"start":443.291,"end":464.863,"text":"好那這當中其實最嚴重的當然就是護理人員不足啊他的這個離職率跟空缺率這兩個其實都是近5年的新高你可以看到這樣的一個數據所以沒有護理人員他就被迫必須要關床那這個問題這個部長你上任我相信你還沒上任之前就知道這個問題你有什麼具體的解方你要怎麼樣來處理這樣的一個問題"},{"start":473.792,"end":484.881,"text":"這陣子來政府大概有提出了三個方向剛剛有報告過人才培育、職場的改善還有薪資的一個改善薪資的改善部分你做得到嗎?"},{"start":486.977,"end":508.696,"text":"已經有一直在提撥可能還不至於到我們護理界所期待因為我當還沒當部長之前我也都是跟他們大家一起在工作我也很期待更高但是政府當然一步一步"},{"start":510.438,"end":519.905,"text":"好那部長我提醒你就是現在衛福委員會在討論的就是健保點子就是1.1元的這個部分醫界也講將來調高的這個部分他們願意回饋給醫護人員首先會去調薪所以事實上這個如果你可以給醫院足夠的資源的話讓他再回饋回去給這一些必要的護理人員我覺得這個才是一個正向的循環"},{"start":537.679,"end":565.799,"text":"那因為之前你到WHA都沒有正式回答這個問題我就正式問你關於健保點值1.1元這個政策你贊成還是反對朝向1.1元的努力我當然是贊成好那我們就加速加速好不好就是朝向1.1元你贊成那我們委員會就加速這樣的一個進程我們會開快車當然要考慮到有沒有辦法來負擔有啦一定有辦法齁這個"},{"start":567.14,"end":591.285,"text":"我想這個政府的財政我們稅額超徵是兩三千億那錢我覺得都沒有花在刀口上去補貼台建的虧損那這個勞保的改革明明是應要走改革路線結果他就撥補就是用一千多億這樣來撥補那真的全民健保這邊要照顧的部分他就說沒有錢沒有錢所以我覺得這個是政府資源分配要分配在哪裡的問題"},{"start":592.345,"end":606.496,"text":"不是有沒有錢的問題那站在衛環委員會委員的立場我覺得去讓我們的醫界真的可以有韌性可以健康的永續這個才是全民健保之福如果醫療界垮了"},{"start":607.617,"end":633.482,"text":"我們的全民健保也不會存在這個我們一定要有這樣的共識所以未來這一個修法我希望這個部長提早做好準備這個是一屆因應其判你過去擔任醫師公會你應該很了解大家的想法那這個部分我們會全力往這部分來邁進那希望你做好準備我們一定周全的來思考配套措施來完成這樣的一個方式我們近期就會來討論跟處理好謝謝"},{"start":636.842,"end":638.836,"text":"好謝謝王育敏委員發言接下來請"}]}},{"id":"153575","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153575","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98c0a44c985365869084a12a82c262ca1068f95e3d087843c25de5def0959499e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:26:47 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10:36:47","影片長度":"00:10:00","會議時間":"2024-06-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-05","start_time":"2024-06-05T10:26:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-05T10:36:47+08:00","duration":600,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":379,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時27分）謝謝主席，請我們邱部長。"],["主席：就像部長這樣自動型的就很棒。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝邱部長。感謝邱部長，代表我們臺灣2,350萬人到瑞士日內瓦參加WHA，到世衛為我們臺灣來發聲。我想請問一下邱部長，針對這次到瑞士日內瓦參與世界衛生大會，你覺得這次的成果怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝涂委員的指教。第一個具體成果，因為我們本來友邦就堅定支持，所以所有的友邦都有簽署提案讓我們加入觀察員，然後在發言當中，不管直接或間接來支持我們的，也達到26個，加1個歐盟，這個也是創有史以來最多的。然後我們很重要的一個雙邊會議，就是國與國級應該是衛生最高層級的互動，我們辦了大概43場，這43場裡面當然有很多我們過去有跟它簽備忘錄的，就備忘錄的內容，我們一個一個來檢討怎麼樣來落實，那如果還沒有簽的，我們當然希望更緊密，所談的合作，都是因應這個國家所需要，以及就我們的強項，我們也可以幫忙來互動的。所以這個部分，它的場次算是比以前多。"],["涂委員權吉：所以重點──這次比較可惜的是其實我們實質還是沒有進入會場，當然也沒有到大會去發言，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["涂委員權吉：那就比較可惜，像我們一些技術性議題、技術性的會議，也都沒有參與。據我們瞭解，其實從2014年馬政府的時候開始參加WHA，其實剛剛部長也有講雙邊會談的次數，這次是43次，我們從以前來看，我們從2014開始參與的時候，我們雙邊會談只有58次，層級的部分當然也都是有跟美國衛生部長來會談，我們這次也有跟貝賽拉會談嗎？這次有沒有跟美國衛生部長貝賽拉會談？"],["邱部長泰源：不但有會談得很深入……"],["涂委員權吉：好，也有會談到嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：然後他這次也有正式在臉書上公告出來。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這次看起來，層級的部分是有到衛生部長啦！"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["涂委員權吉：但還是很可惜，整體上就是沒有機會到大會去發言，當然一些小組會議、一些技術性的議題，我們也沒有機會去發表參與，至於雙邊會談次數，其實整體看起來並沒有比以往的多。我請問一下部長，在5月27號的時候部長有受訪，有談到如果以中華台北參加WHA，你認為會牽涉到主權的問題，然後說臺灣還是臺灣，臺灣的國名就是中華民國，主權不容打折。","所以部長你認為如果用中華台北來參加WHO這個組織，參加WHA這個會議，你覺得有矮化主權之嫌，還是覺得對我們國家的主權有打折的問題嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有各種團體，的確曾經都是用Chinese Taipei在參加，不過WHO，我們認為它已經牽涉到國家的層面，真的就是有主權要考量的嚴肅問題，所以這個要全國大家一起來討論。"],["涂委員權吉：如果今天他們以中華台北名義邀請我們參加，我們會去參加嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這可能要請教外交部，你們有辦法回答嗎？"],["涂委員權吉：因為我們一直以來都是用中華台北嘛，我們這次好像也是用中華台北並沒有說要來參加……可是部長說以中華台北好像有主權打折的問題，如果用中華台北，以部長的看法就變成不見得會參加的意思？"],["邱部長泰源：其實有時候是英文翻譯的問題，因為是在國際記者會，就有英翻中的問題，當我們直接被問到這個問題，我們很直覺臺灣就是臺灣嘛！臺灣就是……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，所以如果用中華台北的話，以部長來講，如果以中華台北，我們應該還是會參加吧？"],["邱部長泰源：「中華台北」如果以我個人的話，我是覺得，就像我們醫療團體，我們過去用Chinese Taipei，現在已經幾乎全部改成Taiwan了。"],["涂委員權吉：不是，因為我覺得我們還是要務實啦！"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["涂委員權吉：因為一直以來我們都是用中華台北參加，我是看到部長針對記者的說法，我想問如果用中華台北的話，以我們衛福部的立場會參加嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：外交部有沒有問題？從我個人的立場上，其實我在國際代表醫療，至少出去國際奮鬥30年，包括學會或什麼，我們努力的就是用臺灣在代表臺灣……"],["涂委員權吉：對，這是很務實的問題，因為我們一直都用中華台北參加啊！"],["邱部長泰源：針對這個問題，因為國家是大家的，所以我們共同來討論是最好。"],["涂委員權吉：如果能用中華民國，當然我們也樂觀其成，但我的意思是，這是務實嘛，現在我們連用中華台北觀察員的身分都沒有辦法參加，那我們也要預設，如果今天有機會去參加，他們邀請我們以中華台北觀察員的身分，那我們會不會參加、要不要參加？"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，能回答多少就回答多少。"],["陳次長立國：謝謝涂委員的指教。應該是說，從政府的政策立場來講，能夠用到我們的正式國名，能夠用到我們全民凝聚共識最高的名稱，當然我們是取法乎上，我們希望有那樣的目標可以去奮鬥。委員您所提的，在過去實際發生的，我們的確有以中華台北（Chinese Taipei）的名義、以觀察員身分受邀參加，現在問題主要來自於，如果我們今天能夠參與且得到更大的國際聲援，至於名稱問題，或許到時候就水到渠成，因為現在我們面臨的阻力還是存在的，所以我們希望能夠得到更多的國際聲援……"],["涂委員權吉：其實，部長你們也不用……我們沒有那麼政治化，我只是希望我們還是要務實來面對這個問題，目前我們的外交處境，不管我們參加多少，很多體育賽事、很多的國際組織都是用中華台北來參加，今天為了我們臺灣2,350萬人民，我們有很多公共醫療衛生的問題需要去參與，所以我的建議是，我們還是以務實外交為主，現在如果有機會用中華台北來參加，如果能用中華民國、中華民國臺灣來參加，我們也是樂觀其成，所以我建議我們應該還是要以務實外交來面對這個問題，有機會參與之後，也希望能夠突破我們的外交處境，如果能用中華民國臺灣，我們也是樂觀其成。所以我是建議，如果有機會能夠用中華台北來參加，以臺灣2,350萬人民的福祉為前提，還是要先務實面對來參加。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：這部分我希望……因為今天也是想瞭解我們……因為我聽到部長對記者回答這個問題，我是有點擔心啦，現在以中華台北觀察員的身分都進不去，你還要以中華民國、以臺灣這個前提，我們國家主權當然不容打折。我也要跟部長報告，其實在2016年的時候，蔡英文總統就有派衛福部長去參加，而且當時也是以中華台北的名義參加，那時候的衛福部部長是林奏延，也針對這個問題特別問過蔡總統，蔡總統也說：這個沒有矮化主權，喪失國格的問題。所以我覺得還是一樣，我希望還是務實面對。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會務實面對臺灣2,350萬人的權利跟安全。"],["涂委員權吉：對，還是以民眾的福祉為前提，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝涂權吉委員發言。在這邊做一個宣告，等一下在王正旭委員質詢結束後休息10分鐘。","現在請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳昭姿","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","王正旭","陳培瑜","盧縣一","廖偉翔","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","劉建國","洪申翰","楊曜","陳瑩","張智倫","陳冠廷"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、外交部就「2024年我國參與世界衛生大會（WHA）之經過、檢討與展望」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0772187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.20659375,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.180968750000002,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.817843750000002,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.391593750000002,"end":20.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.180343750000002,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.15909375,"end":17.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.22659375,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.80846875,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.61846875,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.79971875,"end":22.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.76159375,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.774093750000002,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.947843750000004,"end":52.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.15346875,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.58221875,"end":70.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.10846875,"end":80.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.03096875,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.69659375,"end":114.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.57846875000001,"end":114.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.61221875000001,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.62909375000001,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.64596875000001,"end":114.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.66284375000001,"end":114.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.89909375,"end":121.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.64909375,"end":129.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.12534375000001,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.23846875,"end":133.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.57971875,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.34721875,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.80659375000002,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.61221875,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.93221875,"end":156.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.85034375,"end":158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.59221875,"end":164.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.29221875000002,"end":165.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.09784375,"end":167.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.43096875,"end":171.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.06346875,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.04221875000002,"end":171.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.07596875000002,"end":175.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.24471875,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.17659375000002,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.66534375,"end":180.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.41471875000002,"end":223.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.37159375000002,"end":235.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.39909375000002,"end":237.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.44534375,"end":246.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.38909375000003,"end":250.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.29971875,"end":259.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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Taipei現在已經全部都改成幾乎改成台灣不是因為我覺得我們這還是要務實啦那因為一直以來我們都是用中華台北參加那因為我是看到那個我們部長針對這個記者的說法那我們想說如果用中華台北的話以我們衛福部的立場會參加嗎"},{"start":353.716,"end":373.083,"text":"外交部有沒有問題我從我個人的立場上以及我其實我在國際我代表醫療至少自己國際奮鬥30年啦從學會啊什麼什麼我們努力的就是用台灣就是用台灣在代表台灣這是很務實的問題因為我們一直都用中華台北參加"},{"start":380.061,"end":404.891,"text":"國家是大家的如果能用中華民國當然我們也樂觀其成但是我的意思是說這是務實嘛因為現在我們連用中華台北連用觀察員的身份都沒有參加那我們也是要預設那我們今天如果有機會去參加他用中華台北來邀請我們以觀察員的身份那我們會不會參加要不要參加"},{"start":408.052,"end":410.687,"text":"沒關係能回答多少就回答多少"},{"start":412.972,"end":441.255,"text":"謝謝涂委員您的指教其實應該是說從政府的政策立場來講能夠用到我們的正式國民能夠用到我們全民凝聚共識最高的那當然我們是用這個取法呼喪嘛我們希望能夠有那樣的目標可以去奮鬥那過去委員您所提的實際發生的也的確有這個中華台北的名義我們以觀察員身份受邀去參加所以現在問題主要就是來自於說如果我們今天能夠讓"},{"start":442.056,"end":442.196,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":458.931,"end":482.337,"text":"我們也沒有那麼政治化啦我只是說因為我是希望我們還是要以務實來面對這個問題那目前我們的外交處境不管我們參加多少很多體育賽事很多的國際組織我們都是用中華台北來參加那今天我們為了我們台灣2350萬人民我們有很多公共醫療衛生的問題"},{"start":484.358,"end":486.099,"text":"中華民國來參加中華民國台灣來參加我們也是樂觀其成"},{"start":500.606,"end":523.137,"text":"所以我這邊是建議我們先應該還是要以務實外交來面對這個問題然後這個我們務實外交我們今天有機會參與之後當然我們也希望能夠突破我們的外交處境當然如果能用中華民國臺灣我們也是樂觀其成所以這邊我們是建議如果有機會能夠用中華臺北來參加我們還是以"},{"start":525.498,"end":530.896,"text":"台灣2350萬人民的福祉為前提還是要先務實地面對來參加"},{"start":534.073,"end":561.762,"text":"那這部分我希望因為今天也是想說瞭解我們因為我聽到部長對記者回答這個問題我們是有點擔心你現在以中華台北觀察員的身份都進不去你還要以中華民國以臺灣來這個前提國家這個主權不容打折當然我們也不容打折那我要這邊跟部長報告其實在2016年的時候我們蔡英文總統"},{"start":562.702,"end":583.472,"text":"就有派衛福部長去參加．而且當時也是以中華台北的名義參加．那時候的衛福部部長是林廷宙．而且也針對這個問題也特別問過蔡總統．蔡總統也說這個沒有矮化主權．喪失國格的問題．所以我覺得還是一樣希望還是以務實來面對好"},{"start":585.413,"end":586.374,"text":"謝謝涂權吉委員發言在這邊做一個宣告"}]}},{"id":"153574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c98f97262af9e77e7ec7e99b63b7a11dbca68f95e3d087843c2315cf85df7fa038c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：主委好。關於剛才徐巧芯委員質詢的，那個是不合理的就要去反映，甚至要修法……甚至要修法，雖然法不是你們的，但要建議修法。我們看國軍退除役官兵輔導條例第七條規定，凡為輔導退除役官兵就業所需用之土地，政府、各主管機關就可以提供，依法撥供輔導會作為使用，我們以退輔會的臺東農場為例，自己經營的22%、委託經營的百分之六十點多了，這張表都是委託給個人企業，真正是退除役官兵在那邊就業的非常、非常少。","我們回到法律，我是老公務員，絕對是依法行政，請退輔會主委看這邊，國有財產法第三十九條規定非公用財產經撥為公用後，就是剛才依國軍退除役官兵輔導條例撥給退輔會，為了給退除役官兵就業所需用的土地，現在用途廢止了，你沒有做就業之用，而且你變更原定用途、委託出租，其實就是出租給企業啊！於原定用途外，還有了收益，違反國有財產法第三十九條第一款、第二款、第三款。我們再看原住民族基本法第二十條規定，政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源權利，法律定得很清楚，所以退輔會很多的土地違反原住民族基本法、違反退輔會的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例，也違反國有財產法，這是非常老的檔案。嚴主委，你知道許歷農主委這個人嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：知道。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：退輔會許歷農主委在民國77年5月15號答復內政部吳伯雄部長，內政部吳伯雄部長是根據原住民的建議親自發函給退輔會主委，退輔會許歷農主委再發函給吳伯雄部長，同意將現在沒有利用的土地四十六點五多公頃撤銷撥用歸還，而且還多了一句話，「今後視安置的狀況，若再有不需公務利用之土地定當繼續辦理撤銷撥用事宜。」主委，你在軍中很久了，很多現在的退除役官兵在早期都安置了，我們原住民都配合，但現在沒有了，去做農的人很少，而且有的已經到天國去了。就原住民族而言，退輔會許歷農主委的承諾代表著中華民國政府與原住民族的契約承諾。","這部分我給你看一個最近的公文，財政部113年3月14號發函給退輔會，你們就是要依法、依國有財產法返還，我們不搶奪，我們只就原住民本來就在使用、一直在使用的，撥給你們但你們沒有用那麼多，而我們還在使用的這些土地能夠依法增編為原住民保留地。我們要特別再講一句話，在威權統治時期，許歷農主委是在威權統治時期，他都可以依法撤銷撥用、返還給原住民族，現在號稱民主憲政時期，民主憲政也很多年了，更應該要依法行政。主委，你回去的時候，跟同仁好好的……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為你剛上任，所以這部分要特別、特別來請嚴主委，過去的立場不同，沒有關係，但是依法行政最重要，好不好？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，我們會依法行政。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：依法行政，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員，請主委回去研議。各位請回。","接下來進行詢答委員張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-24","speakers":["王定宇","羅美玲","沈伯洋","林楚茵","黃仁","陳冠廷","馬文君","徐巧芯","鄭天財Sra 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主席 各位委員 委員你要質詢我委員很想 讓你升官請主委 主委請政委好 主委好 這個不合理的 如果你剛才 小心"},{"start":23.507,"end":28.07,"text":"國軍退除役官兵輔導條例第7條規定防衛輔導退除役官兵就業首席用之土地政府各主管機關"},{"start":51.959,"end":54.626,"text":"提供依法撥工輔導會作為使用"},{"start":60.374,"end":80.066,"text":"這個退會我們就以臺東農場為例這個自己經營的22%委託經營的60%點多了然後這些都是委託給個人企業曾振延那個退除官兵在那邊就業的非常非常的少"},{"start":81.67,"end":110.169,"text":"好我們回到法例我是老公務員絕對是依法行政但是要請退伍會這個主委這邊國有財產法第39條規定非公用財產經撥為公用就是說剛才依退除役官兵輔導條例撥給這個退伍會因為為了要退除役官兵的就業所需用的土地"},{"start":111.483,"end":111.911,"text":"那現在"},{"start":112.998,"end":140.084,"text":"用途廢止了你沒有做就業之用而且你變更原定用途委託給出租了其實就是出租給企業以原定用途外還收了有了這個收益違反了國有產法39條的第一款第二款第三款然後我們看原住民族基本法第20條規定"},{"start":141.684,"end":169.985,"text":"政府承認原住民族土地的權利這法律的定的很清楚所以退伍會很多的土地違反了原住民族基本法違反了退伍會的條例國軍退除役官兵輔導條例也違反了國有財產法這個非常老的檔案原住委"},{"start":170.979,"end":197.339,"text":"許立農主委有知道這個人嗎?知道退府會許立農主委在民國77年5月15號答覆內政部吳博雄部長內政部吳博雄部長是根據原住民的建議然後他發文給這個親自發行給退府會主委"},{"start":199.005,"end":224.836,"text":"退府會主委施令榮發行給吳伯雄部長說同意將現在沒有利用的土地46.5多公頃徹銷撥用歸還而且還多了一句話今後是安置的狀況若再有不惜公務利用之土地應當繼續辦理徹銷撥用"},{"start":230.047,"end":254.557,"text":"這個主委你在軍中也很久了很多退出役官兵現在的退出役官兵早期當然都安置我們原住民都配合都配合那現在沒有了現在去做農的很少了所以而且有的已經到天啊到天國去了所以就原住民族而言"},{"start":256.874,"end":281.562,"text":"退伍會習立榮主委的承諾．代表著中華民國政府．以延續民主的企業的承諾所以這樣大概一個部分我給你看一個最近的公文財政部113年3月14號發行給退伍會希望你們不是希望就是要依法依法依國有財產法"},{"start":289.003,"end":306.099,"text":"本來就在使用一直在使用的因為撥給你們說但是你們沒有用那麼多我們還在使用的這些土地能夠依法偵編為原住民保留地所以這個部分我們要特別去再講一句話"},{"start":307.748,"end":311.551,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":324.885,"end":339.242,"text":"民主憲政也很多年了更應該要依法行政這個主委你回去的時候跟同仁好好的因為你剛上任所以這個部分要特別特別的"},{"start":341.674,"end":353.026,"text":"來請這個嚴主委這邊過去的立場不同沒有關係但是依法行政最重要好不好謝謝政務院委員然後主委回去也謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/18e54f584c581c983a8d0a4f7d1c2d14e41b4d0ae556a0d968f95e3d087843c22082d6f9854c4f465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:32:53 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Map、Google Street？現在透過Google的地圖都可以看得非常清楚，如果說我知道部長您家的位置，我可以一直放、放、放大，看到你們家現在的窗戶、你們的窗簾是什麼樣子，如果說正好您家人是站在窗邊的話，都還可以看到你們家人的臉孔。這個部分你說沒有辦法進行人臉辨識，我認為其實與我們現在一般老百姓所瞭解的科技技術的發展相距太遠，不太可能說你們用這個衛星定位系統，你們只會看得到車牌、只能辨識車牌，不會涵蓋到人臉辨識，它一定在技術上都可以做得到的，而且這是很容易的，你在蒐集大數據的時候一定就會同時蒐集到有車牌的訊息以及人臉的特徵，所以我不太知道你們未來在技術上面怎麼樣可以把它區分？這也是我對於這個法案比較有質疑的地方，這是第二點。","第三點，有關於檢察官、司法警察官、司法警察等等都可以採取你們現在所說的這種定位偵查法，我想瞭解的是你們內部未來會有一個內控機制嗎？檢察官自己說他今天要透過這樣的衛星定位系統去做追蹤，他就可以做嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個會有內控的機制。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可是我覺得這個內控機制你們應該把它明定在法條裡面，至少本席並不同意這麼概括授權就讓你們自己內部去定，你們必須要把未來相關的檢察事務官、司法警察等等，他們要調查犯罪，然後採取這樣的步驟要去進行調查的時候，所有的陳報程序，然後最後由誰決定他們可以去這麼做，我覺得這必須要明定在法條裡面。","接下來還有一個問題，我們這次談到所謂的受調查人，受調查人應該是屬於特定的嘛！對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所謂的被調查人對象是特定的，但是剛剛前面幾個委員有提到，我們在進行高科技偵查的調查過程當中，一定也會概括去蒐集到其他不特定的第三人，對於其他不特定的第三人，當他們被調查的時候，之後會告訴他們嗎？在這個案子結束之後會告訴他們，當時在調查相關案件的時候，其實你們的資訊也被我們蒐集到了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個會通知，但是我們還是會有分別，如果只有干預極少的，就是隱私干預非常小的，譬如說我們那個短期的GPS追蹤行蹤的部分，短期的，因為這不到24……"],["翁委員曉玲：是誰來決定這個影響很小？法官來決定嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分法律在立法上，我們就有考慮到，就是以時間非常短少的一個時間，這部分就不用……"],["翁委員曉玲：是多短少的時間？這個部分其實也沒有很清楚，還有就是說在整個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個裡面，法院核票的時候就有這樣一個限制、規定的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這個部分的話，其實我真的覺得要把它明定出來。另外，已經調查出來的相關證據，其留存的部分，按照現在你們草案第八條的規定，之後為了後續偵查或調查目的而有必要長期留存的話，執行機關還可以繼續保存，但是什麼叫做後續還有偵查或調查的目的，而且有必要性？我覺得這個部分其實也太模糊，我認為在這部法律裡面不應該授權給執法機關有這麼大的授權範圍，所以我建議你們要將所謂的什麼叫做後續還有偵查或調查目的──你明明之前調查的案子已經結束了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其實以干預程度比較高的通保法來說，這部分也是這樣規定的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以現在通保法才被人詬病嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在那個科偵法……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在那個部分就是不明確，謝謝你提醒我，這個部分的話，也要求通保法有關於後續什麼調查目的，這種有不明確、概括授權範圍太廣的相關條文，你們都要把它提出來檢討、修正。因為在過去這些年來，其實大家對於檢調機關採取監聽等等的，其中有過度干預、侵害到人民權益的部分，已經有很多的質疑，趁這一次，我建議你們要將條文重新再檢討，要把它寫得更清楚。我認為這個法案基本上是有嚴重侵害人民個人資訊隱私疑慮的事情，不宜在這個條文裡面訂得這麼模糊，必須要更具體化。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為這裡面的確都沒有涉及到內容，只是都是在軌跡而已，所以這個對隱私的侵害……"],["翁委員曉玲：拜託！這個現在不是這樣講，數位軌跡它可能分散在各個不同的地方，但是你拼湊起來，它就可以構成一個生活圖像，這也是這一次王義川事件大家衍生出來討論的大數據分析事件，看起來好像都是很個別，但是一旦把所有個別的資訊拼湊出來，就非常清楚，他就可以知道到底誰在現場。我認為不應該這麼消極啦，就是應該更積極的，尤其是作為執法機關，你們要依法行政嘛，但我們立法者也不可能這麼概括授權，讓你們可以有太多操作的空間。所以本席認為這部法案其實還有很多地方需要重新再研擬、檢討的。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員，謝謝鄭部長。","剛剛的會議宣告我們做個修正：待會我們進行到11點休息，或者是今日詢答結束。","接下來我們請鄭委員正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","我們請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","我們請林楚茵委員、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","我們請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","我們請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","我們請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-30","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","黃國昌","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","林思銘","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2024-06-05"],"gazette_id":"1135601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案","agenda_id":"1135601_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.14409375,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.93284375,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.898468750000003,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.59721875,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.05096875,"end":63.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.47659375,"end":75.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.72784375,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.29846875000001,"end":112.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.16096875000001,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.51409375,"end":136.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.66534375,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.21784375000001,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.90846875,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.41034375,"end":138.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.69159375,"end":196.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.40096875,"end":202.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.96971875000003,"end":215.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.94659375,"end":219.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.35971875,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.94096875000002,"end":230.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.77971875,"end":232.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.72034375,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.36909375000002,"end":276.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.64159375,"end":288.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.04096875,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.66096875,"end":341.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.69471875,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.50909375000003,"end":343.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.79596875000004,"end":343.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.82534375,"end":345.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.29346875000005,"end":349.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.35596875000005,"end":367.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.47409375,"end":350.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.55159375000005,"end":377.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.52471875000003,"end":378.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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