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的報告．並在調查期間同時下載類似的追蹤工程緩撞車的EDR的資料．以作為事故的樣態及系統性因素的分析依據．"},{"start":2025.016,"end":2049.81,"text":"預計今年的7月發布事實的資料報告今年年底預計要完成最終的調查報告光湖山、康橋校車在現役快速道路往北的文山隧道有荒霧的事故這個是在今年3月11日發生的那麼這個案子我們預計在今年的9月要發布它的事實資料報告可是同時在"},{"start":2050.851,"end":2069.785,"text":"而上個月的5月21日的在這個事故地點同車道往北約175公尺次又有一部康橋的校車發生大滑的失敗事故那麼這個案子我們把兩個案子變案處理因為這個路段在兩個多月裡面發生兩次的類似事故"},{"start":2070.646,"end":2085.642,"text":"除了道路主管機關台北市政府新工處已經參與我們這個案的調查會議外我們在5月24日也拜會該處那針對這個鋪面的改善還有它降低行車速率這個議題互相來交換安全的資訊"},{"start":2087.143,"end":2103.921,"text":"現在報告業務重點第一持續提升航空水路、鐵道及公路事故的調查能量為提升本會調查能量本會藉由參訪、觀摩、研討會、會議、辦理訓練及專題演講的方式持續建置事故的調查能量請參閱相關資料"},{"start":2105.382,"end":2132.825,"text":"那麼在工程能量方面我們已經建設25小時的徽航記錄器鎖壞的解讀裝備更新實驗室的焊接設備導入三維掃描儀器投入硬具殘骸掃描作業以利完成重要證物的數位保存作業並完成台中、高雄兩個主要港區的三維立體視覺數位建模以及海事事故資料複習系統的擴充有助於未來重大水路事故調查的應用"},{"start":2133.922,"end":2145.934,"text":"第二、強化調查人員訓練及與國際運輸安全的交流本會派員參與國際運輸調查專業訓練與技術研討會以精進調查人員的專業技術相關資料請參與另外以跨國民航事務調查局以及澳洲運輸安全委員會簽署合作意向書"},{"start":2156.598,"end":2172.897,"text":"然後到美國參加事務調查員材料會議。那麼依據今年10月份會到日本參加鐵道事務調查國際論壇。在今年的8月由本會以加州大學伯克萊分校先進交通技術研究中心合作辦理國際論壇以加強與國際運輸安全組織的交流。"},{"start":2179.247,"end":2207.08,"text":"參加國際運輸安全協會的所長聯會本屆的國際運輸安全協會所長聯會在今年5月27日到31日在阿安格雲首都布宜洛斯埃利斯舉行共有14個國家代表實體跟或通路線上的參與本會擔任運輸安全調查與檢警單位關係的議題的主談人以及人工智慧自動化與人際見面議題的與談人以各國政府運輸事務調查機關的所長交流分享"},{"start":2207.921,"end":2216.3,"text":"運輸事故調查經驗與安全資訊提升運輸安全調查之多邊互助合作第四有關運輸安全自願報告系統的監制與運作"},{"start":2217.304,"end":2242.029,"text":"本會去年共接獲航空、水路、鐵道及公路的自願報告93經篩選國內外具分享價值的案例、編傳並發行8期的運輸安全自願報告系統專刊．今年其5月底為止已經接獲43則報告．並發行4期的專刊．其發揮擦身支持全世界的功能．達成事務運航的效益"},{"start":2243.257,"end":2265.466,"text":"第五,有關醫術安全改善建議的最終以列管本會迄今共計發佈1705項醫術安全改善建議完成改善結案者有1555項剩下150項各機關共目前仍在積極改善中第三,有關大院委員關切議題執行部分"},{"start":2266.656,"end":2292.481,"text":"第一有關重大運輸事故範圍的修正進度那麼這個案子我們是朝兩個方向朝調整這個認定標準的方向還有就是擴大範圍所以我們把自用大客車跟新興的硬具一定會把他納進來那目前已經開了好幾次會議包括我們去年的時候也跟去年我也邀請中央跟地方機關來共同研商那後續"},{"start":2294.001,"end":2302.97,"text":"預告完成之後我們會進行法制周圍然後會依法會同交通部報告行政院合併第二、修正具先進駕駛補助系統以及電動車輛的調查程序"},{"start":2306.192,"end":2330.115,"text":"因為具有先進駕駛輔助系統也就是所謂A-DAS車輛在國道追撞施工工程仿裝車的事故頻傳那麼國內電動車的數量逐漸增加所以本會已經修正了動作公路事故調查標準作為程序那麼所以這個程序修了完之後我們最後事故通報之後馬上可以派遣人員到事故現場收集資料隨即可以成立專案調查小組"},{"start":2333.225,"end":2353.818,"text":"四、預期釋放施政的績效．第一,藉由重大運輸事故調查．發掘根源噪音．研提各項運輸安全改善建議．協助各機關完成分項執行計畫．與預防類似事故再發生．有效提升我國的運輸安全第二,藉由強化國際合作交流．汲取各國調查及安全概念．"},{"start":2355.137,"end":2379.599,"text":"制度及技術之優點因應未來稀釋運輸發作重大因素事故調查作業所需面臨的挑戰第三,持續討合國內外調查技術及專業訓練增進事故調查人員之調查技術及工程鑑定呼吸能量以強化安全趨勢與預防性的安全研究技術最後報告結語本會將秉持獨立公正專業的精神辦理重大海空運"},{"start":2380.785,"end":2380.805,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":2409.932,"end":2412.92,"text":"交通部長今天又會請假請交通部陳次長報告"},{"start":2425.01,"end":2451.71,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天因邀致貴委員會就台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為提出本部處理意見報告首先對於委員關切公路系統的道路安全讓本部有機會向各位委員說明了深感榮幸並表達感謝之意本次主要的報告是有關台二線70K的"},{"start":2454.171,"end":2481.86,"text":"70K上的一個大規模的一個崩塌的事件以及災後的處理邊坡滑動的監控管理跟未來的策進作為等相關內容那根據本部的瞭解在對災情的掌握崩塌導致許多車輛被掩蓋跟受困造成一萬兩千立方公尺的一個攤房需要進行相關相應的搶修和災害影響程度的評估至於在邊坡"},{"start":2482.86,"end":2508.493,"text":"邊坡滑動監控管理方面在本報告中特別強調邊坡監控的一個監測的一個重要性以及公路總局已經會實施相關的一個監測及未來的測定作為而且本部的部長也對外宣示將在一個月內責請本部有關公路方面公路局、高工局還有台鐵公司甚至是高鐵能夠進行邊坡的一個總體檢"},{"start":2513.275,"end":2535.441,"text":"來防範此類的事情再一次的一個發生那以下我們就請本部公務總局陳局長就臺二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡的監控作為進行詳細的一個報告那敬請各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝陳市長請公務局陳局長報告"},{"start":2541.901,"end":2565.276,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生那以下請就台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為進行報告那事件發生是在6月3日的14點28分在台二線的70K發生攤方雙向阻斷交通那攤方的規模長度54公尺、高度41公尺、寬度14公尺攤方量達一萬兩千立方公尺"},{"start":2565.916,"end":2588.612,"text":"那在公路局就立即於現場成立這個前進指揮所那由於現場有大量的巨石而且其中最大規模尺寸達到100噸所以我們到目前已經出動了這個PC300型的破碎機兩台200型破碎機八台傾瀉卡車兩台產裝車三台水車一台還有多位工程人員全力進行搶救那另外"},{"start":2589.772,"end":2613.399,"text":"這個在中斷期間也公告了這個汽車跟機車的行駛的替代路線對於民生的運輸尚不至有重大的影響另外客運路線受影響的有9線我們也透過多重管道公告最新的乘車資訊那自災的原因出判我們也會同相關的地質跟大地工程的專家學者初步認為台二線的上邊坡因臨海迎風面受風化的影響"},{"start":2614.159,"end":2642.168,"text":"在它的地質構造是屬於厚層塊狀砂岩跟薄葉岩互層那風化後這個岩體又變得比較鬆軟那而且這個砂岩長期風化容易產生這個結裡面也就是裂縫那使這個水容易滲入那研判是近期這個餘震不斷加上5月底到6月初的封面降雨導致這個坡面它裡面的這個關鍵的岩塊軟化鬆動導致由下往上擴災一路抽灘至坡頂"},{"start":2643.208,"end":2661.578,"text":"那在邊坡的滑動監測管理部分目前公路局針對全國的省道山區路段的邊坡我們依據這個環境所在跟設施條件有分為ABC加CD五等級那平時依照養護手冊巡查跟做定期的檢測另外在滑坡的這個邊坡監測部分"},{"start":2663.879,"end":2689.178,"text":"這個邊坡的監測儀設置的原則主要為山區路段曾經發生邊坡滑動崩塌呈現或順向坡那我們也進行過相關的整治工程為了確保該山坡這個坡地的這個穩定性而且就是說要評估要做這個設置儀器做長期的監測那我們就是說會來做這個看這個監測成果是不是要再擴大整個監測的範圍"},{"start":2690.479,"end":2706.563,"text":"因為本次的台二線的70K的這個邊坡他沒有列入這個中高風險的優先關注邊坡所以沒有設置相關的一個監測儀器那目前公路局在這個邊坡安全的監測儀器種類繁多包括有這個設置傾斜計、地滑計、雨量計、所謂觀測警跟地貓嚇眾計"},{"start":2711.084,"end":2735.035,"text":"那各項儀器都有綠定相關的管理值那看這個監測結果再來檢討是不是要這個增加監測點位的密度跟擴大監測的範圍那另外在順向坡的部分因為順向坡容易造成整體坡這個這個邊坡的一個滑動所以我們特別利用這個這個無人機這個UAV做這個順向坡面是否有這個侵蝕裂縫這個破壞的徵兆"},{"start":2736.856,"end":2754.312,"text":"另外目前就是說經過這個專家學者這個現刊我們公路局在孫強坡的監測儀器也設置了18處那對於就是說邊坡的整體的安全其實公路局已經對於這一個省道的這一個邊坡設置這個地盲那有391處有33000餘隻的地盲那在西級以上的邊坡也有74處9472隻的地盲"},{"start":2761.978,"end":2778.314,"text":"這些地毛我們在這個108到113年還特別就是說這個有編列公務預算9億元辦理整個這個地毛的安全檢測來瞭解這個地毛相關的這個拉力還有就是說是不是要做相關的一個防死補強"},{"start":2780.558,"end":2803.178,"text":"那在優先關注邊坡我們目前公路局有45處都是運用就是說這一個中央地料所他的地質圖地質災害顯示圖然後做相關的套疊以後依照這個邊坡的危害風險分為5級那其中這個優先關注的邊坡我們在每一次的汛期前還有10月前至少都會辦一次的定期的科技巡檢"},{"start":2804.079,"end":2820.978,"text":"那巡檢項目有五大項可以降低這個人為主觀的一個分級的這個錯誤那公路局我們自己自我檢討雖然有許多的管理措施不過因為這一次的台二線的70K的崩塌位置沒有列入這個高風險的路段不在監測範圍"},{"start":2822.039,"end":2845.741,"text":"我們會來檢討這個後續依照這個案例來進行整個相關的檢測的一個機制那未來的測定作為有兩項第一個對於就是說這個台二線的70K的邊坡一定要這個防止它的再次崩塌所以目前大概就是說對於這個上邊坡比較這個容易這個掉落的腐蝨已經做相關的清理那之後還會再做這個研栓研定"},{"start":2847.102,"end":2871.523,"text":"然後這鹽釘然後就還有做這個這個坡面的一個噴泥土辦理後續的一個復建工作那對於就是說這個整體制度面的部分我們會加強邊坡的這個滑動的監測管理因為這一次我們自我檢討就是因為整個災點它的坡面其實這個這個直坯就是說可以從這個空照圖看到這個直坯有做相有相關的覆蓋"},{"start":2872.404,"end":2894.411,"text":"那所以不易就是說去判斷這個它的這個邊坡坡體內部它的這個沙葉岩的這一個節理主態也就是說它的裂縫的這一個走向跟這一個傾斜的角度所以我們在這個短期在一個月內也會運用經濟部地質調查跟礦業中心他有發布的這個山崩地質"},{"start":2895.231,"end":2917.323,"text":"三峰帝華地質的敏感區先來套跌台二線這個領海的這個西級邊坡那就是說做如果說這個而且也會做這個無人機UAV的建模特別檢測有發現侵蝕現象我們就把它提升到B級那列為優先關注邊坡就會做這個相關的定期的科技的一個巡檢巡查那另外這個"},{"start":2919.315,"end":2941.672,"text":"一個月內只是做這個西極邊坡的一個盤查那細部的部分因為這個是大尺寸這個經濟部的這個這個地調中心的相關的這個山崩地滑地質敏感區它的尺寸規模比較大那兩萬分之一的地圖所以我們還要做更細的這個的一個調查了解所以我們在年底前也會委託專業機構運用這些地質圖沿線還要做相關的一個地質的一個勘查"},{"start":2946.135,"end":2962.607,"text":"那就這個崩塌的位置還有這個裡面的節理的這個主訴跟位態我們進行調查後比較能夠建立這個更完整的這個北海岸公路的邊坡管理機制那這一次的台二線的70K的邊坡的處理我們公路局會在"},{"start":2963.387,"end":2981.611,"text":"這個精進整個邊坡的滑動監測管理機制另外這一次的搶修工作我們也會積極來進行希望透過各項的措施儘快恢復當地的道路交通保障民眾的安全跟生活便利以上報告建請委員會指教好謝謝陳局長局長6月11號要搶工搶完成搶工完成嗎"},{"start":2992.507,"end":2997.851,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下的事項詢答時間初期委員5加1分鐘,列席委員4加1分鐘"},{"start":3016.673,"end":3032.809,"text":"委員發言人登記截止在10點30分截止。各委員如果有提案的話請在10點以前提出來,以便醫事委員會整。我們暫定10點半休息10分鐘。中午原則上不休息。現在請登記第一位的林佩祥委員發言。"},{"start":3044.279,"end":3070.289,"text":"有請林信得主委主委我記得在4月19號上次我來質詢的時候就有特別提醒到說這個高速公路的邊坡要檢測的議題不知道主委還記不記得4月19號的時候我上次在質詢的時候我特地提到這一點"},{"start":3072.07,"end":3095.151,"text":"其實我看到報告基本上本席是對於這報告給予肯定因為我講完之後你們馬上就開始去作業但是本席還是要在這邊特地再提醒一次因為4月3日發生的大地震不會只單單純純對於說我們今天發生事情的地方有所影響甚至說有很多大地震之後還有很多餘震甚至五感地震都會對於我們地質造成一定程度的破壞"},{"start":3095.871,"end":3120.745,"text":"所以本席還在這邊這邊還是一樣針對這邊只有矽脂難這個矽脂交流到走山那我剛有問過我們這個慾安委員會的同仁們他們說因為這個矽脂當初國三的大走山這件事情我們是那個大安委員會是在那個慾安委員會在4年前成立的所以沒有法追蹤到但是本席在這邊特地以會議紀錄以正式發言會議紀錄的方式建請"},{"start":3121.425,"end":3143.704,"text":"我們運輸安全調查委員會針對國三當初在20當初國三在2010年4月25號那時候發那時候發生的大型走山事件的附近做出一定程度的偵測的偵測並與給高空局一定程度的建言因為這是因為我本期主要主要是兩個原因第一個剛剛已經講過有關地震第二個其實是因為說現在"},{"start":3145.445,"end":3169.957,"text":"只要早上7點之後每天早上7點之後國一跟國塞都會搭塞車那只要有一點點就算沒有出現任何的人命傷亡傷害但是只要出現一點點的這個一點點道路上的問題的話就會造成絕對的搭塞車那變成說上班上課組會變得非常辛苦所以在這邊建請我們應安會主委特地針對這件事情再提供給高空局這邊足夠的報告"},{"start":3173.293,"end":3188.625,"text":"這個是道路主管機關跟地方政府的權責但是我們應該會可以從獨立交通機關角度我們可以協助高中局來看怎麼樣改善他的安全我們可以協助他好就麻煩了好謝謝那再來請我們再來請陳部長請陳市長"},{"start":3199.527,"end":3221.732,"text":"市長請你簡要的針對今天在基隆市八朵子發生的事件跟後面主要是後面大概在什麼時候剛剛有聽到我們我們召委特地有知道說6月11日會退赴通車可是針對現在最後面怎麼樣什麼時候通車那目前狀況是如何你們怎麼樣做出一定程度的後面的補修機制做出簡單的回答"},{"start":3223.572,"end":3250.549,"text":"我跟委員報告一下有關11號要通車的這件事情其實從今天媒體上我們也說明了我們分幾個階段在降蛙那邊坡上的腐蝕也做了一些處理那相關的這個工程人員大概日夜的在做一個清除的工作那我們有樂觀省省的樂觀認為可以在安全的情況下在11號的時候如期的來做相關的通車"},{"start":3251.409,"end":3274.17,"text":"至於說後續喔﹖剛才這個報告裡頭也特別提到﹖或者是專委﹖專委有特別提到﹖其實這個邊坡呢﹖它是一個應該是後層的一個塊狀的岩石﹖跟那個薄的這個頁岩相互交織在那裡的﹖所以那個地方的一個邊坡﹖它質批非常良好的時候﹖從外觀上是看不出它有這個問題的﹖"},{"start":3275.071,"end":3296.048,"text":"但是這兩個這個不管是沙岩或者是液岩它因為風化的一個強度的耐風化的強度不一樣又加上有水的因素在這裡面所以造成了所謂關鍵岩石的一個浸潤然後軟化然後這個岩石後來就崩了下來然後就造成了這樣的一個情形所以"},{"start":3297.269,"end":3316.965,"text":"針對這樣特性的這樣的一個嚴懲的一個結構所以剛才在這個報告裡頭有特別有說明我們大概分三個部分第一個呢當然是對所有的邊坡西級的邊坡部長已經下達指示了就是要做全面的一個總體檢那是對所有的不管是各個公路鐵路要做的"},{"start":3317.385,"end":3335.395,"text":"至於說這個地方呢,剛才有特別提到因為它有一個山崩地滑的一個潛勢的區域所以公路總局第一個步驟會先去套疊這些區域然後就剛才講到的會有這種斜礁的可能斜礁逆向的邊坡可能會崩塌的"},{"start":3336.295,"end":3359.713,"text":"或是差異．我馬上講完重點．有差異化的一個70的話．他會先做一些由C級提升為B級．那就立即要去做一些改善．那長期而言他會跟地質．地質圖做一些套疊．然後邀請專家學者再做一次前面的檢視．就這個台二線的這一個路段．做相關的一個邊坡的一個管理的經濟以上"},{"start":3361.834,"end":3376.54,"text":"我認為這邊有一些資料未來我想請部長請交通部來交給我們交通委員會第一個對於潛勢土石由地區進行的地盤改良然後以增加邊坡安全的安全性企劃這我希望說我們交通部可以提供"},{"start":3377.1,"end":3404.447,"text":"第二個是針對公路周邊易崩塌跟土石流淺市區提出調查報告第三個要提供在2010年4月23日國道走山事件2013年在8月31日必殺漁港巨石掉落事件2022年在國一11月1日國一汐止斷走山事件跟現在最新的2024年6月3日潮進的走山事件我們交通委員會"},{"start":3405.427,"end":3429.678,"text":"本席建請我們交通部在3年之間的3年內的邊坡檢測報告都要提供回來畢竟你們才是專業我們必須要讓民眾安心的話我們是需要專業的專業的專業的報告跟評估的另外有幾點我特地要提就是有關你剛剛講的邊坡巡查跟管理機制本席希望說在特別巡查中這次的B級邊坡應該要增加"},{"start":3432.299,"end":3457.949,"text":"因為經過4月3日大地震之後我剛剛也跟林主委林信得主委在談經過這次大地震之後其實有很多地方本來我們是不知道本來是相對來講就跟今天我們在看到八斗直面一樣看起來是很好的可是隨時可是裡面的結構其實已經被破壞那我覺得在這個前提之下B級的邊坡應該要增加而且一併納入巡查之中甚至連植被完整的邊坡也要一併加強巡視"},{"start":3458.729,"end":3484.858,"text":"另外一方面來講也為了說要確保我們巡檢人員安全無意的狀況之下一般來講我們的巡檢安全人員都是去肉眼或是人員上去巡查但是現在我會強烈建議說利用AI或科技工具來做輔助甚至無人機來去做徹底進行周邊邊坡的檢視一方面是這樣比人工人眼來的準確之外第二方面也是減少所謂人員在檢查的風險"},{"start":3486.806,"end":3507.422,"text":"第二件事情是我這邊要建請我們交通部我在3月26號的時候有跟台鐵公司有辦過一個會刊就是有關基隆市龍安街96巷23號其實那邊的邊坡也是相當的危險而甚至說上面有民宅在那邊住那民眾其實有疑慮那邊的當土牆其實已經有一定程度的軍列了"},{"start":3508.863,"end":3533.69,"text":"但是這是在這個會刊是在3月26號而4月3號大地震之後是否那邊的這個安全係數已經加強我是不是可以請那個董事長來說說是跟委員報告那個我們在4月3號地震以後我們台鐵公司我們有進行我們所有的邊坡的一個檢測那邊我們會予以加強好"},{"start":3535.811,"end":3559.032,"text":"市長我特地要提為什麼把這個會刊提出來因為這個會刊不會是個案而是通案台鐵跟高鐵旁邊的邊坡檢測都要特別注意因為我們都知道說只要有一點點事情發生台鐵高鐵那不只是說阻礙我們的通勤之外甚至很有可能大量的人命傷亡就是因為像這樣的事情發生所以這邊請市長特別要注意"},{"start":3559.452,"end":3576.228,"text":"第三點就是我這邊特地提到台二線北濱跟基金公路段這附近其實落實的機率很高因為旁邊以旁邊的地址來講旁邊地址裡面有一個自我計用式西岸中山區湖海路的路線可是"},{"start":3576.869,"end":3592.553,"text":"湖海路路線在過去10年有4次攤幫當然那個是都市計畫那個是屬於基隆市政府的管轄地區沒有錯可是湖海路跟我們的台二線這邊非常的接近相對來講地質其實應該差不了多少所以湖海路在湖"},{"start":3593.714,"end":3610.883,"text":"在中山區湖海路那邊有4次落石掉下來的話本席不禁擔心說我們台二線的另外一邊也就是在金山萬里附近的基金公路段尤其是假日的時候那邊是時常會塞車的所以在這邊在邊坡的檢測上面建請我們部裡面要特別注意"},{"start":3611.743,"end":3638.48,"text":"本席在這邊一定要說一定要肯定我們部裡面在這次的急難上面的緊急措施但是我還是不禁要提醒這件事情全國都在看之外而且人命關天這次只有在基隆很慶幸的不幸中的大幸只有兩位我們基隆市民受到受到受到輕傷當然也是只有車子在受到一些受到一些損傷財務也沒有損失太多"},{"start":3638.86,"end":3660.511,"text":"但是畢竟來講像這樣的事情本席比較烏鴉嘴一點可能不會是特例可能慢慢的因為這是大地震跟地質的改變可能會慢慢變成個通例那這一點來講請交通部跟我們運安會特別要注意這件事情盡量然後防範於未來越防範於未來越準備越多越好以上謝謝是我們會加強來精進作為是好謝謝林佩祥委員下一位請林國昌委員發言"},{"start":3681.294,"end":3707.32,"text":"請交通部陳市長陳市長請還有我們公路局陳局長高速公路局趙局長趙局長還有我們台鐵公司杜董事長還有我們高速鐵路局的我們的鄭總經理鄭總"},{"start":3710.353,"end":3739.329,"text":"另外那個林主委你等一下注意聽一下因為這個安全跟你們有關你不需要上來啦不需要上來你就稍微聽一下跟你們業務有關拜託你們要去督導一下好好正式其實我個人的看法當然因為民意代表監督政府這是我們的天職但是如果發生天災啊基本上"},{"start":3740.772,"end":3763.642,"text":"這個也是無法抵抗所以我今天請各位上來也不是在指責的意思但是天災難防這沒有人會怪但是如果人後那這個問題所有政務官就必須要去負責那這件事情台二線這件事情當然"},{"start":3765.387,"end":3792.501,"text":"不是 這個也是一個天災可是問題出在哪邊問題你們把它內入根本一點危險都沒有所以這個就是我們的監控制度到底有沒有問題你們的巡查到底有沒有問題所以你們只要一不小心一不認真就會造成老百姓生命跟財產的受損"},{"start":3794.887,"end":3811.568,"text":"所以我還是要拜託我今天主題就是要來檢討到底你們的監控制度以及你們列入你們的這些邊坡管理的監控制度到底有沒有問題"},{"start":3812.429,"end":3834.873,"text":"所以市長我也知道你從這個公路系統或什麼這個你對這個也是非常在行所以我要拜託你因為你是政務官你必須還是要去監督這幾個跟人民生命財產有關的這個部分一定不能啊一定不能啊去負累的"},{"start":3835.433,"end":3851.969,"text":"所以我現在要請教我剛才看到報告我們公路局的我們的陳局長我們現在列入監控的地方前台灣省所有公路這麼多我看你的報告只有86位是要監控是不是"},{"start":3855.047,"end":3872.488,"text":"86個有裝儀器在做建設其他都還沒有就是已經裝了認為有危險監控的部分來那個高速公路局來趙局長請問你們現在危險的地區或者會危險的地區你們現在裝置有多少"},{"start":3872.999,"end":3891.326,"text":"跟委員報告我們所有的那個西極邊坡都已經裝測了那多少個我要知道多少我們現在所有的邊那個604處的西極邊坡他裝了3131支就是我們高速公路高速公路是不是國一國三國這個所有的604處604處來那個那個那個台灣那個台鐵多少"},{"start":3900.387,"end":3928.646,"text":"有跟委員報告齁,我們有38處裝有我們的監測儀器另外還有目前已經在正式就是襲擊的嗎?就是所有的,所有的所有的,就是我們所有的沿線有裝監控的另外還有26處我們監控室落實告警那是另外的,還有26處好,那個馮總來,高速公路"},{"start":3930.769,"end":3932.94,"text":"高鐵,你們現在有多少?"},{"start":3933.868,"end":3934.048,"text":"好!好!"},{"start":3964.941,"end":3983.337,"text":"來 那個陳正智 這個就是問題所以我們台 那個台二線 這個部分滑落欸 你們 你們不管是空拍啊或什麼什麼遺棄去偵測 多數安全喔可是為什麼會發生這個事 就是制度有問題嘛"},{"start":3985.13,"end":4004.835,"text":"所以我還是要建議我們交通部這裡針對這些人民的安全你們監視是已經發現到喔可是今天台二線發生這個事情還好這都是停車場喔如果是人口密集的東西那一定會出人命"},{"start":4005.535,"end":4020.563,"text":"有幸這次沒有出人命只有小傷還有車損的部分用錢可以解決的都沒有問題生命丟了以後這是人命關天所以陳正智我會不跟你講"},{"start":4022.23,"end":4044.26,"text":"這種事情不能怠慢為什麼我要請四大所有的公路跟交通這個單位監控的東西不能負累你不要以為裝上被你們發現裝上的都沒有問題是沒有被你們發現的才是有問題像台二線這個事情就是這樣啊不是嗎所以我要建議"},{"start":4045.18,"end":4060.189,"text":"部長這裡要特別把它當成真正是一回事人民的生命是可貴的財產還可以還可以可以可以來來這個疑問但是生命是無價的"},{"start":4060.649,"end":4087.877,"text":"所以我要拜託你們四個單位一定要針對這些以我現在所了解過去我們盛巷坡不是有走山的問題嗎那你們現在做了以後欸其實沒有這回事啊那個就是落實但是現在發生這些事情根本你們就是不落實嘛用目視啊不然就用空拍那空拍怎麼會拍出真正裡面的事情所以我要建議"},{"start":4089.238,"end":4117.457,"text":"新加坡就像前幾天台北市它樹木裡面用木式的每一個樹木沒有問題但是裡面已經病蟲侵蚀要倒了所以現在你在台北市是引進新加坡的新遺跡啊也就是它的紅外線紫外線它一倒下去裡面有沒有空洞人家馬上知道所以我要拜託"},{"start":4118.477,"end":4134.247,"text":"當然因為我對高鐵馮總你們這裡對於監控這個機制我是較為肯定上次我執行的時候我就建議我們杜董事長要比照高鐵的規格去做這些事不要以為你們現在有幾個監控"},{"start":4136.989,"end":4152.888,"text":"最危險的地方就是你們沒有在注意的地方才會發生這個事故所以我要拜託我們城市長在這個部分你們要開一個專案把這種東西向我們公路總局拜託你們的編制人員每一個段"},{"start":4156.933,"end":4179.786,"text":"人員都很多你們要成立一個專責小組去做這些只要下雨只要地震只要颱風你們要去做這些危險評估小組也就是不要增加人員但是你們的人有基本常識去目睹以後有問題趕快回報給總局去做這些危機預防的動作"},{"start":4183.328,"end":4212.31,"text":"我們沒有做這些我們沒有做這些所以我在本席啊因為時間到了拜託陳正智這個部分我希望四個單位一定要把它當成是你們的重要一個課程那我也要拜託我們這個林主委這個部分你們要提供你們專家可以預防勝過治療的這些政策提供給他們監督他們把它做好這樣台灣人民在行"},{"start":4214.091,"end":4236.163,"text":"陳做這等等他才會有一個安全好不好正是是我跟委員簡單回應兩點啦第一個是有關不管是颱風也好豪雨也好或特殊事件之後其實本部的相關的局或是公司他們都會有做相關的巡檢而且會滾動檢討他那個分級的等級這是一定會去做的啦"},{"start":4236.563,"end":4259.934,"text":"至於說那個剛才特別提到的監控系統的是不是可以再繼續擴大或更落實這部分我們再來跟相關大家共同來討論我們前幾天大概也有發現像剛才特別提到高工局西級以上的邊坡他其實都裝了我覺得這個可以給各單位來做一些考量那個政治我必須要提醒你"},{"start":4260.994,"end":4281.77,"text":"這一次發生的事情是沒有監控的就代表是有問題的該監控的監控這個問題是出在這裡所以我要拜託市長回去跟部長講這要責成這四個單位這跟人民生命財產有關的不能開玩笑把它列入一個檢討重點"},{"start":4284.152,"end":4298.846,"text":"這個最早要正式你們去監督你們去盯那我們也要拜託林初緯在這個部分也要去提供一個專家的意見這個部分希望我不希望下一次每一個單位又會有"},{"start":4299.767,"end":4321.975,"text":"那我在這裡拜託最後最後30秒我要拜託四個單位你們現在襲擊有危險的這些東西提供給本委員會的委員好不好讓我們做參考你們現在有多少個監控的地方還有評估有危險的地方請四個單位提供給我們好不好可以嗎沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝林國成委員"},{"start":4330.908,"end":4348.04,"text":"下一位請李坤哲召委發言謝謝陳雪生召委請一下陳彥博次長林信得主委以及陳文瑞局長"},{"start":4353.643,"end":4371.235,"text":"市長好在5月16號本委員會質詢的時候那我就提及因為0403蘇花公路大清水路段嚴重的崩塌他也是屬於西脊的邊坡那"},{"start":4372.156,"end":4394.808,"text":"我們看到不到半年內發生了兩次襲擊坡的這樣一個重大的事件其實對於公路的安全必須更提高層級來做處理我請教一下林信得主委我們對於這樣半年內襲擊邊坡兩次的重大邊坡運安會會啟動相關的處理跟調查嗎"},{"start":4400.678,"end":4423.23,"text":"這個是屬於環境運輸的部分我們會我們有調查的這些相關的設備我們會支援高空局好那所以我必須要提醒你我們雲南會針對公路系統的啟動調查有三大原則第一個原則就是死亡三人以上或者是死亡受傷十人以上"},{"start":4424.23,"end":4440.839,"text":"死亡加受傷10人以上另外就是受傷15人以上這是第一個原則第二個原則是對於有載送相關的危險物質發生洩漏或是爆炸這也要啟動相關的調查"},{"start":4442.6,"end":4468.225,"text":"第三就是相關的事件重複的發生或者是對相關的運輸安全有重大影響像對人民的生命財產有嚴重衝擊的這些事件也必須要啟動調查那你認為這樣襲擊邊坡在半年內兩次發生這樣一個大攤方是屬於自然的因素所以不用啟動調查"},{"start":4470.431,"end":4491.041,"text":"這個如果是屬於系統性我們就會用如果重複發生現在半年內已經發生兩次我是要特別提醒你另外我們看到這一次的6月3日的台二線70公里出了這個崩塌當然它自災的一個狀況"},{"start":4492.83,"end":4521.013,"text":"地震以及相關的這種極端型氣候豪雨的沖刷導致土壤邊坡富含水分那我們也看到它的這個土壤上的直坯的植物其實生長也都算正常沒有崩塌的這樣的一個徵兆那近幾年也沒有發生這種土石崩塌的情況它是屬於無預警的這樣的一個崩塌來次長說明一下"},{"start":4522.369,"end":4542.297,"text":"我先請教你部長說6月11日之前要來搶通目前的進度以及狀況必須在安全無虞的狀況下通車來說明一下是我想委員特別提到部長也去當地勘栽了以後了解狀況以後也做了"},{"start":4542.677,"end":4568.198,"text":"因為有一萬兩千方要處理所以目前預定的時間就是6月11日來恢復通車那我這幾天我也去看了我覺得相關的作業同仁都在很安全的情況下來進行這個通車應該是審慎樂觀的在6月11日之前應該是審慎能夠通車而且是在安全無虞的狀況這是我的一個"},{"start":4569.437,"end":4583.49,"text":"最重要的監督的原則必須要安全無虞是一定安全無虞的情況下那我們剛才看到我們這些ABCD的這四級的邊坡其實它都有它的一個巡查、監測、檢查相關的機制"},{"start":4586.793,"end":4613.17,"text":"像我們在這些邊坡其實都有定期的巡查也有定期的這樣的一個監測還有相關的就是地毛的一個檢查那其實這些部分我們看到相關的這些邊坡我要提醒次長我們西級加上西家級總共有600多處對不對"},{"start":4616.272,"end":4639.216,"text":"總共有603處公路局的方面我要跟各位說明的是C級有明確的定義C加就是介於B跟C之間就叫C加總共有600多處部長有說在一個月內要進行相關的盤點我們的量能夠嗎?人員夠嗎?在一個月內針對這600多處的C加"},{"start":4644.844,"end":4671.617,"text":"以及西級的這些邊坡能夠做盤點嗎 來說明一下我想這部分我的瞭解應該是沒有問題的那是不是詳情我請公路局說明一下公路局說明一下各位報告因為我們會先由這一個經濟部的地質這個調查還有礦物中心他有一個這個山崩雲也就是說山崩地質地滑的一些敏感區那先做大範圍的一個套疊"},{"start":4673.058,"end":4699.135,"text":"那到底以後就是說針對就是說在這一個稀奇邊坡又在這個地質敏感區的這個部分的話會特別的檢測那其他的部分的話有一些部分我們必須要做相關的3D建模因為這個是一個月先做一個初步的一個檢測那之後的話因為它的一個就是說經濟部地料中心的一個尺寸規模比較大有些部分我們必須要做更深入的一個一個調查地質的一個踏桿"},{"start":4699.815,"end":4709.808,"text":"那這個部分後續還會有其他的一個時程規劃我們目前的檢測的機制有分成三種你們也清楚屬於定期的檢測、隨機的檢測、特別的檢測"},{"start":4715.407,"end":4735.872,"text":"我們其實都有相關的這樣的一個機制並不是說西級的邊坡就沒有做巡查跟監測這是不對的我要提醒你們剛才有委員在質詢你們應該提出說明定期的這樣的一個檢測包括邊坡的巡查他基本上"},{"start":4737.192,"end":4747.287,"text":"A級的話是一個月一次B級的話是一季一次C級的話是一年一次D級的話是三年一次是不是這樣"},{"start":4749.997,"end":4760.406,"text":"那是檢測我們原則上巡查的部分是每週巡查每週那特別檢那個一般檢測的話就是像我講的就是監測檢測都有這樣的一個機制我們現在半年內這個西極邊坡已經兩次的這個自災啊造成"},{"start":4769.913,"end":4791.111,"text":"人民生命財產的一個交通安全的威脅那我們應該去檢討這個邊坡的分級機制那我們邊坡改善的前後應該這個分級要納入考量就是說原本AB級如果它經過改善它也有可能變成C級對不對那這些C級變成C級之後"},{"start":4794.113,"end":4818.402,"text":"我們還是要提高它相關的巡查跟檢測的頻率應該是這樣吧 來說明一下各位報告就是說C級的部分就是說透過這個巡查或檢測它有不穩定的話就會升級了就直接把它升級到B級那B級的話就是說這種像這個優先關注邊坡的話每一季我們還做無人機的一個飛行建模這是升級的部分對"},{"start":4819.162,"end":4843.75,"text":"會就是說巡查或是檢測或者是因為他攀方後他B級經過改善之後他有可能會降為對對對他如果穩定以後我現在講的就是說B級如果降為C級或是C級的話他相關的巡查及檢測還是要高於一般C級的這樣的一個檢測是所以我們這一次的包括這個監測跟這個分級的這個部分我們會一併通案的檢討另外我們要"},{"start":4845.391,"end":4860.113,"text":"將頻繁降雨的地區因為它含水性會更高與頻繁地震之後相關的結構穩定性要加以細分來增加各種情境係數的納入考量"},{"start":4861.094,"end":4887.825,"text":"還有我們要建立復合性的天災如頻繁地震或連續降雨的這樣的一個機制那即使在每一次地震以及豪雨之後我都會提醒交通部門相關單位必須注意相關的土石崩塌以及邊坡的滑死相關的這些土石流的這樣的一個處理這都是次長要去加以督促"},{"start":4888.405,"end":4911.883,"text":"另外我們的這個整體山體來作為單位的全域管理機制因為我們現在有時候上坡邊坡滑落他也會牽動下坡的這樣的一個也會被沖落的這樣一個狀況這樣必須是以整個山體來作為單位的全域管理機制有沒有問題來說明一下"},{"start":4913.644,"end":4931.871,"text":"我想跟委員報告,這樣剛才委員特別提到的這個就是整個上邊坡一直到坡頂的這樣的一個檢查這一個機制呢,其實在我如果沒記錯在國山走山以後其實在公路法就已經有訂定相關應該要檢查而且要處理的一個機制,所以這沒問題。"},{"start":4932.651,"end":4942.24,"text":"最後的時間我認為我們應該要加速辦理邊坡的防護計畫相關的進度我們現在公路局統計現有的邊坡A級有258處B級有49處C級有22處C級有603處D級有776處"},{"start":4952.329,"end":4960.433,"text":"總計列管達到1708處其中A級的邊坡是有45處列為優先改善的邊坡我要請教一下其餘的213處的A級還有49處的B級到目前好像沒有看到提出相關的改善計畫是不是 來說明一下"},{"start":4981.423,"end":5007.65,"text":"是各位報告就是說相關的這個監測跟改善計劃如果有需要他如果不穩定的話其實都有都有相關的一個持續的一個改善計劃那只是說這個但目前就是沒有期程也沒有計劃嗎對不對如果是還在災害還沒有修復完成的話其實就都有修復復建計劃像4月3號之後的話包括台八台九線的邊坡的部分的話都有相關的一個復建計劃"},{"start":5008.69,"end":5028.438,"text":"我想在地震頻繁的臺灣在全球極端氣候的這樣的一個肆虐的狀況地震加上豪雨可能是未來常見的這樣的一個大自然的現象那對於公路系統相關的引起是邊坡的安全保障是次長是交通部"},{"start":5029.278,"end":5056.164,"text":"以及局長必須要全力督促來保障民眾交通安全的一個基本的這樣的一個保障這個是要全力以赴的以上是好謝謝我們李昆哲召委昆哲召委是非常資深的交通委員他所提到的一些綜合性的一些災害什麼的我想運安會這邊可以多"},{"start":5059.008,"end":5059.808,"text":"好,下一位請我們陳素月委員發言"},{"start":5092.712,"end":5100.257,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請呃陳次長還有陳局長陳文瑞局長還有局長齁陳局長呃委員好呃次長早安早呃我們交通部對於呃這個公路旁的這個邊坡的一個管理啊就是有依據他的這個呃穩定性跟不穩定性有分為呃五個等級嘛齁就是A級B級C級"},{"start":5121.071,"end":5121.952,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":5140.385,"end":5161.817,"text":"那我們看到這一次就是這個6月3號的我們就是台二線70公里處的這一次的這個邊坡滑落的這個意外事件他是屬於西級所以可能就是會造成國人的一些就是比較疑惑或者是擔憂的地方就是說"},{"start":5163.278,"end":5186.838,"text":"西景應該是屬於穩定性不是那麼就是不是那麼不穩定的一個地方那竟然發生這樣子的一個意外那到底之後我們出門國人駕車出門的時候到底哪一個路段是安全的哪一個路段是比較高風險性的我想這個是國人比較關心擔憂的一個地方那是不是可以請我們次長先說明一下"},{"start":5187.999,"end":5188.12,"text":"稍後報告"},{"start":5203.839,"end":5232.451,"text":"發生在這個西級邊坡上還是有這樣的一個崩塌的情形所以剛才在這個簡報裡頭我們大概也特別提到我們會再去針對我們相關邊坡分級管理尤其是西級的部分是不是還有一些因素我們沒有考慮到的那個我們大概會去把它做這檢討檢討出來再滾進去這個這樣的一個邊坡管理制度然後重新來做一些分級上的一個探討跟分類以上"},{"start":5232.691,"end":5255.313,"text":"是那我們就是針對C級的全盤的一個通盤檢測預計多久時間可以完成原則上C級邊坡的一個檢查那部長是希望相關的單位能夠在一個月裡頭把它完成是就是照次長剛剛回覆的一個月檢測完成之後就是有些路段有可能也是比較不穩定性有可能就是會提升為A級或B級"},{"start":5256.674,"end":5280.317,"text":"是,我們歷次幾次的總體檢完了以後都有做這樣的一個處理就是會再做一個調整區分那調整之後當然我們還是要關心的就是說那針對於A級、B級這種比較高風險的一個路段我們要怎樣去確保這個安全性那我們知道就是說目前我們有這個高風險優先關注的邊坡目前我們是有45處"},{"start":5281.718,"end":5301.561,"text":"那這45處的標準我們是怎樣去評估來選定這個路段的因為我們剛剛那個李昆哲召委也有關注嘛A級有258那我們目前優先關注的只有45處那其他的呢那怎麼處理這個應該是大家關心的"},{"start":5301.881,"end":5325.822,"text":"我跟委員稍微簡單的說明一下原則上這裡大家所看到的ABCD級啊這個我們叫做這個叫定量就是大家認為說這是比較危險的用這種描述性的那剛才特別提到的所以在這個定量分析裡面公路局的這個邊坡管理制度他還引進了所謂的那剛才是定性的分析啦那還引進所謂定量的分析就是意思就是說要針對AB級的邊坡"},{"start":5327.483,"end":5346.57,"text":"他會去打他分數看他的這個掉落的情形還有邊坡的一個狀況等等的他會做一些落實的危害的分析的一個評估打完分數了以後他會分成一二三四五級在這種五級裡頭對於三級以上的他找出來"},{"start":5347.23,"end":5361.627,"text":"就是大家現在在對外投入來講的就是優先的關注名單所以他關注名單是從A、B級裡頭再去把他篩選出來最嚴重要持續關注他的會再去進一步細分五個等級"},{"start":5362.128,"end":5387.317,"text":"意思就是說兼顧了所謂大家講的定性跟定量的分析當然在這樣的分析的制度裡頭其實是還算是有一定的一個嚴謹度那還是有所謂西級邊坡還是有被意思就是說還是沒有列在這裡面那這也就是我剛才講的後續我們會針對西級邊坡也就是我們邊坡分級管理制度有沒有哪些因素我們是沒有考慮到的我們會再做一些檢討以上"},{"start":5388.277,"end":5402.974,"text":"那就是說針對優先關注的邊坡我們就是會有其他的一些工程的加強或技術性的一個改善就對了對那優先的邊坡剛才講三級他會三級以上所以有三級啊那三級的話剛才就講有巡檢啊或者因為"},{"start":5403.254,"end":5406.656,"text":"來做一些有關類似像邊坡的這個變異的一個分析啦或數值模型的比對啦那找到說這些危害的因素在哪裡我們應該怎麼樣把它處理掉"},{"start":5426.586,"end":5442.603,"text":"另外我們也有針對可能應該是比較高危險性的路段有裝設這個落實告警系統是不是那這部分我目前裝了哪些地方那這些地方跟剛剛我們所謂的優先關注的路段是會是同樣的路段嗎"},{"start":5443.543,"end":5468.634,"text":"呃原則上會剛才講優先關注以後呢他會就會做一些呃這個呃科技上的一個巡檢科技巡檢完以後他就會改善那如果這些改善的路段是呃人力或是機械無無法到達的地方我們就會裝設所以這個落實告警系統所以原則上是發了我剛才講的優先關注邊坡一直下來的對是是好那那個落實告警系統啊"},{"start":5470.014,"end":5490.785,"text":"這個所謂的告警系統當然就是說要提醒可能有落實嘛那這樣子的一個告警系統是對內的還是對外就是一般民眾可以看得到嗎可以看得到的我們有些在這個會在前面會示警告訴大家前方有落實等等的會會前方有落實是"},{"start":5491.445,"end":5509.581,"text":"他掉下來因為我們落實告警如果已經開始在掉了我們就會提醒就是已經有落實下來讓大家知道是會透過簡訊還是說透過怎樣的東西去告我們原則上前面會有CMS的警示的這個來告訴大家"},{"start":5510.462,"end":5529.053,"text":"電視看板電視看板對電視看板的那種告示對對對對對對是我想因為這個大家都很關心因為畢竟我們出門在外就是在外面就是開車上路也希望就是說一路都能夠平安所以對這樣子比較有高風險性的路段大家都是會比較擔憂的"},{"start":5535.056,"end":5554.707,"text":"主席再給我兩分鐘時間我再關心一下有關我們的那個機車考照的部分那我們知道就是說目前我們根據這個統計數字看得出來就是說目前機車事故而死亡的人數啊占這個整體的交通事故死亡人數已經超過六成了"},{"start":5555.407,"end":5584.833,"text":"所以這個我們也知道機車是我們國人最普遍使用的一個交通工具所以要怎樣讓這個機車的行車安全這個事故能夠降低我想也是大家要努力的一個目標那我們也看到就是有一個數字就是我們這個機車要考照那考照如果是透過駕訓班的一個訓練之後它的一個違規率是會大幅的一個下降我想這對整個提升機車騎士的一個"},{"start":5585.353,"end":5612.254,"text":"行車安全也是有很大的一個幫助那這樣子的就是考照我們目前公路局的駕訓部分有補助就是我們國人去考照的時候透過駕訓班考照是可以有補助的那這個補助的一個政策好像是到今年11月30號到期那我想請問一下這個這麼好的一個政策我們是不是可以再跟他延續我的了解應該會繼續是不是請局長說明一下"},{"start":5615.276,"end":5641.346,"text":"好各位報告就是說這個機車駕訓的補助在今年有實施那未來年度我們也有別人預算這樣子是所以就是可以再延長就對了是是是是好那因為我們也看到就是最近應該是昨天嘛我們也公佈了新的一個機車考試的一個題目一個類型就是會加入的那個感知的一個先感知影片感知影片的一個"},{"start":5641.986,"end":5643.047,"text":"好謝謝陳素月委員稍微請"},{"start":5671.311,"end":5700.248,"text":"台南市林俊憲委員市長好謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳市長陳市長請還有工總工總陳文瑞局長好委員好市長好市長我們今天要來關心啊就基隆那個公路邊坡塌下來的事情"},{"start":5701.941,"end":5728.319,"text":"剛剛我們陸委員來關鍵這個事情都要求你要做個總體檢那其實公總應該在去年就完成了總體檢我們在一年前C級以上的邊坡就總體檢完了也就是說總體檢做過了滿一年那在總體檢的報告裡面有沒有提出會有可能有崩塌的邊坡"},{"start":5730.882,"end":5755.938,"text":"沒有啦我的了解總體檢…你的總體檢裡面喔是大概全部都及格啦沒有總體檢完了以後我們有我的了解有其…有些邊坡我們做了一些升級的一個處理如果我想我們可以把委員…你可以送給委員參考啦當然你不可能說完全預知啦但是有危險的你要加強"},{"start":5757.659,"end":5780.661,"text":"不過今年落實的次數都非常多這就是一個徵兆今年到現在才不到半年已經落實通報件數有19件去年2023年才4件前年11件也就是說今年到5月落實的事件就比前兩年加起來要多了"},{"start":5781.837,"end":5804.748,"text":"那其中今年就是我們真正關心的基隆這個崩塌的事件他是最可怕的就是毫無症狀那你們檢查也及格了那也符合那個門檻就是說不需要特別巡查你知道你有一個特別巡查的門檻你知道嗎?社長你知道吧?"},{"start":5805.971,"end":5832.683,"text":"陳局長,你有出場說話嗎?有。就是說,你們就3小時累積雨量要120啦。對對。然後前兩天累積雨量要350。是。這個都沒有。沒有。這個沒有為什麼塌下來?這種狀況最危險。所以我認為啦,你的門檻要調整。為什麼?因為基隆啊,基隆在最近就有41次的大雨透爆。"},{"start":5834.076,"end":5862.247,"text":"然後我們台灣又發生了大地震花蓮地震是不是這樣子所以這是為什麼造成地震以後光餘震就一千多次了然後基隆大雨特報最近兩個月內從4月到6月發布了41次的大雨特報但是你在對照你的必須特別巡查的那個門檻通通不需要"},{"start":5863.539,"end":5891.776,"text":"如果有發生事故這個地方,幹什麼呢?是不是這樣?陳局長幹什麼呢?所以我認為啦,你這個特別審查門檻應該要檢討你如果說有地震或者是有連續大雨幾天以內那達到多少次的大雨特報就是說你要有你所謂的檢討,要檢討這一次發生狀況前後的一些因素"},{"start":5893.756,"end":5903.491,"text":"啊不然你這個邊坡如果他今天沒有塌下來在你公總的紀錄裡面這個是安全的啊也不用特別去檢查他就沒事啊那不是這樣"},{"start":5904.83,"end":5923.632,"text":"我以為有關這個門檻是不是要調整我想我們會請公務局來做一些檢討但是本次事件除了這個門檻這些其實它有一大的因素是地質上的我們沒有嚴格來講我們相關的裡頭沒有把它考慮進去的那這部分是我們後續要檢討的部分"},{"start":5924.662,"end":5949.023,"text":"如果你沒有把他考慮進去也是一樣啊你就覺得那個不用特別去查啊所以以最近的天候狀況也不需要啊是不是這樣當然工種的資源應該要再加強你看高鐵高鐵的那個預警山崩落石高鐵管的邊坡389處其中大概有危險的他幾乎都有裝落石警告系統"},{"start":5950.049,"end":5975.894,"text":"大家有地震偵測啦邊坡滑動偵測啦風速偵測啦洪水偵測、豪雨偵測甚至闖入的警告偵測啦通通有啦那因為工種你管的邊坡就有1700多個地方啦那你還要再分ABC級你那個硬體設備啊我記得交通部也編了很多錢給你啦那你應該要趕快不足的地方應該要再趕快來補強啦是不是"},{"start":5978.479,"end":5988.746,"text":"我想我們會請公務局來檢討至少要達到接近高鐵的標準吧你看他有裝各種那種偵測系統還是高鐵比較有錢"},{"start":5994.642,"end":6006.346,"text":"不是高鐵靠近啦我覺得高鐵它這個政策系統當然當然就是主要全部都是預防嘛是是而且它本身也是因為高鐵速度快嘛只有烏坤齊開的高鐵會有兩秒鐘煞車啦"},{"start":6010.1,"end":6038.463,"text":"所以高鐵啊他兩三百公里在開他一定需要這些系統那確實高鐵營運以來就沒有發生邊坡塌下來造成的事故等等對不對我跟委員 是啊我這個我們會來看怎麼樣來做但是高鐵也好或是高工具其他是某種程度是人工變化我認為你那個特別審查的標準要再檢討因為你頂上市啊是是你像某個地區它連續四十幾次的大雨特暴"},{"start":6039.946,"end":6051.309,"text":"你總會覺得緊張吧?或者是說它地震以後那是不是要在特別警示的地方再去看?好,我來請教一下運安會啦,運安會主委主委好我現在比較擔心的是運安會你現在是國家級的機構啦國家運輸安全委員會我擔心你的人才流失的問題"},{"start":6069.212,"end":6094.953,"text":"我們的航空組吼,航空調查組吼,調查官吼,裡面有一位調查官吼,他是有執照的機師吼,結果被新的航空給挖去了吼,為什麼?薪水開了三倍,三倍薪水,那個人我也照他吼,對不對?你就留不住這種人才吼,然後我們一位水路的調查官吼,"},{"start":6096.83,"end":6123.705,"text":"這位調查官具有船長的資格他也被挖獎了去擔任那個飲水人那薪水也很高建出港的那種飲水人所以他也跑掉了我們現在的調查官我看還有很多缺額還有缺8個人那航空調查官現在缺了3個航空調查官編制10個那你至少要有一位開過飛機吧"},{"start":6125.373,"end":6154.286,"text":"那你現在剩下7個,你們有飛行經驗的嗎?我們現在有飛行經驗的還有3個你們有嗎?有3個,我記得還有3個那你要怎麼樣留住人才?像這樣的那種狀況的話,你缺額你補得起來嗎?我很擔心啦,因為你最近6年就離職10個啦今年就離職3個啦,通通都是被挖角通通都是被挖角"},{"start":6155.583,"end":6184.862,"text":"所以我們運安會啊藉著你的位階現在是定位國家級的一個單位那為什麼吸引不到人才可能是福利啊薪資等等以外我舉個例子給你參考啦因為我時間有限像澳洲的運安會啊他從學校啊大學跟研究所啊他就跟學術界來配合他就去配合未來他需要的調查官"},{"start":6187.035,"end":6197.431,"text":"這點可以給你當參考要不然你永遠留不住人才因為我們訂的裡面的人力有些要求的標準都很高你要有機師執照你要會開飛機 對不對"},{"start":6200.621,"end":6221.587,"text":"或者說你水路調查你要有船長的執照這兩類啊有機師執照和船長執照在調查官裡面是薪水最高的但再怎麼高都不會比不上你民間嘛 對不對那你是不是很容易流失那你怎麼辦啊你現在缺了八個人我看你最近六年每一年都有人離開還是你這樣業務會受影響嗎"},{"start":6227.577,"end":6256.376,"text":"目前是OK啦 那就不用補啦我們現在有人在參訪學校有來參訪我們去宣導的時候我們都會告訴他們說這個地方需要人才那麼事實上人才的缺乏現在不普遍性的航空公司也缺人我們這邊也缺人而且跟國內少子化也有一點關係所以現在我們這個是多管齊下在做那剛剛有人報告譬如說我們航空組的調查官我們的組成分子除了Captain就機師以外"},{"start":6257.817,"end":6258.277,"text":"好,謝謝林俊憲委員"},{"start":6289.803,"end":6307.256,"text":"待會等徐富奎委員發言完畢休息10分鐘現在請黃建豪委員發言好,謝謝主席,我們先請運輸安全調查委員林主委林主委請"},{"start":6316.56,"end":6343.713,"text":"主委好主委這個你有來自台中關心一件事情去年5月的時候台中的發生捷運事故那目前已經超過一年了那4月22號今年4月22號的時候運輸安會來備詢的時候提到說這個5月底的話終結事故的調查報告會出爐那現在已經6月我想了解一下說因為為什麼還沒看到這個最終調查報告因為這涉及到說台中市政府提到如果"},{"start":6344.333,"end":6367.418,"text":"預案會報告沒有出來之前他的行政處分或相關調查這個結果他沒有辦法去處理他還是要依據我們預案會的這個結果他才能去後續的責任歸屬去釐清甚至賠償等等的所以我想問說連沒什麼用的監察院都在4月提出了終結事故調查報告那我想專業的這個預案會什麼時候才會有報告出爐"},{"start":6368.294,"end":6389.071,"text":"我們最晚最晚6月底一定會出來因為委員會已經加開一次了那現在是在等這個被調查單位的陳述意見來那我們6月14日如果確定他們陳述意見是是可以被接納或者是委員會裡面同意的話我們6月底以前一定會發布被調查單位的陳述意見是台中市政府嗎很多單位還有誰"},{"start":6389.858,"end":6409.212,"text":"還有捷運局．還有．還有四人羽球公司等等都有很多單位所以他們是6月什麼時候會把這個陳蘇伊健送進我們議員會6月14日以前就會陳蘇伊健會進來這是最後的因為委員會已經開過兩次最後一次會做最後的一個6月14日送進議員會那什麼時候會有這個修正報告最後的結論出來"},{"start":6418.218,"end":6442.257,"text":"因為我想我還是要跟主委報告因為這份這個議員會的調查報告會影響到後續的不管是行政處分也好後續的賠償也好所以我們才會覺得說已經過了一年喔很多人都忘記了但是因為其實這個我想不管是家屬也好還是市政府台中內部也好其實這個問題一直延續到現在還沒有辦法有一個明確答案所以大家比較急啦所以我想知道這個6月底前確定會有嗎"},{"start":6443.078,"end":6467.793,"text":"一定會有好主委謝謝謝謝主委接下來一樣討論到這個邊坡管理的問題我想一樣在同樣在交通委員會因為今年我想地震多這個下雨也多所以說是今年的這種邊坡事故特別多我想今年5月16的時候交通委員會我們才召開針對公路系統道路跟橋樑安全改善辦理情形的專題報告那當初市長也有在場還是請市長一起來好了"},{"start":6470.319,"end":6492.75,"text":"我想這個5月16才開完這所謂的針對邊坡的改善作為那不到一個月又再次發生了基隆山崩的意外那我們希望說這個到底全台灣的C級邊坡的狀況當初有要求要去盤點那預計7月也就是一個月後要來公佈那現在6月就發生這個事情所以想了解一下到底現在交通部盤點的狀況如何"},{"start":6495.211,"end":6522.17,"text":"那排列的過程裡面有沒有包含了包含這一次這個基隆這個事件的這個這個邊坡我想那個事件發生以後部長對外說明就是要在一個月內要把做西級的邊坡總體檢那至於說公路總局的部分他在這個邊坡的這個體檢裡面也一定會包含這樣的一個邊坡而且他會依照這次邊坡的特性局長在這個檢這個報"},{"start":6524.171,"end":6549.699,"text":"書面報告裡頭已經有說過了他會依照地調所的相關的一個徒資再去套疊相關的公路局的相關的邊坡來加強這樣的邊坡的一個體檢市長那像這一次基隆的這個這個邊坡有在你們的目前的範圍裡面嗎在我們的西齊邊坡裡面是有在裡面嗎是所以本來就知道他可能會有潛在的風險"},{"start":6551.497,"end":6571.938,"text":"他是屬於我們列管的邊坡啦是列管的邊坡這個列管邊坡裡面還有一個問題就是我們包含說我們高中的地球科學就知道了這個是因為我這個高中那時候有這個921的問題啊所以林肯大峻是因為發生在順向坡那到底像全台灣這種順向坡逆向坡公路旁邊的順向坡你們有沒有做一次的完整的盤點"},{"start":6572.578,"end":6596.994,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下在這個應該是國三走三的時候當時就是全面的就順向坡做一個總停歇而且也做了相關的因應的一個處理如果要加裝地貓地貓檢測等等的這個在不管是公路也好或高速公路上甚至包含台鐵高鐵大概對於順向坡都有做一些處理"},{"start":6597.634,"end":6613.322,"text":"那這一次這個比較特別的是是他一些逆向協調的一個走勢所以這部分我們會在這一次裡頭也會納為這個就是總體檢的一個對象好 次長謝謝那我們再看下一頁其實我們要問一個數據"},{"start":6614.483,"end":6637.094,"text":"我想這個目前公務局提供了相關的公路邊坡的這個問題大概有全台灣有1700多處這個有被列管了這麼多那當初這個新部長上來之後要求一個月內要檢測完那到底第一個問題是說邊坡的分級你們要怎麼分的那第二個是被劃設為C級邊坡他是依靠直批跟外觀來判定有危險嗎"},{"start":6637.714,"end":6644.665,"text":"他用什麼方式來檢測是靠科技還是靠人力就是到底這個你檢測的標準跟定義的標準是什麼"},{"start":6648.372,"end":6668.041,"text":"報告一下我剛才有稍微講過他有定性的一個描述跟定量的一個評分來區分這個所謂的這個ABCD級的邊坡甚至還剛才大家有討論到所謂的關注的一個邊坡是用這樣的方式所以他是科學化的而不是說今天數量"},{"start":6669.705,"end":6694.217,"text":"數量這麼多那你剛剛提到的不管是用科技的方式你剛剛去定去測的方式我有沒有辦法在一個月內把這1700多處都測完我們原則上是就在這裡的C級邊坡603處來做一些總體檢做一些檢查那依照以往總體檢的一個結果大概就會做一些原則上會做一些升級啦就是說也會發現到一些問題然後把這個C級往B級的邊坡來做"},{"start":6697.659,"end":6722.355,"text":"另外一個問題就是民眾也擔心一件事情就是因為過去這是過去訂出來的標準那這今年當然今年特別好像地震比較多一點那再加上這一次基隆崩塌地點的旁邊兩公里之前也發生過類似的事11年前也發生過這個山崩所以在定義的時候還有在這個列管的方向上面會不會因為地震改變了我們的地形地勢之後會有影響"},{"start":6723.96,"end":6747.901,"text":"我想這個地震也好或是豪雨也好或是颱風也好這種比較特殊的這個天候的影響或是氣象的影響都會改變我們這個邊坡的一個分級我們都會回饋回來做一些調整會所以這個數據到時候再調整嗎會會調整會會就是這7月份的報告裡面它的數字就不會跟現在一樣了會會一定會會做一些調整好謝謝市長謝謝主委好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":6751.414,"end":6772.334,"text":"好,謝謝黃健豪委員下一位請徐富奎委員發言徐富奎委員發言之後休息10分鐘謝謝主席,有請交通部陳次長、公路局陳局長陳次長、公路局陳局長"},{"start":6779.083,"end":6805.083,"text":"委員好市長早安好我想本席在0403大地震過後就有提醒當時我們的王前部長我們要全面的巡檢全台的一個變波不用只詢這個花蓮的那最近因為好大雨那包含南投、嘉義還有最近的基隆都發生穩定的變波有攤方的意外那我們當然不能夠完全否認跟地震有關係所以請教市長"},{"start":6805.903,"end":6819.548,"text":"究竟我們在所謂這個天候因素之下,包含強震、好雨過後的一個邊坡巡檢的SOP,我們到底是怎麼來進行?請說明一下。我想各個單位,比如交通部各個單位,"},{"start":6820.768,"end":6846.631,"text":"他都會有剛才大家一再提到的邊坡分級的一個管理那在邊坡分級的管理分級完了以後然後他會遇到剛才委員特別提到的降雨的情形地震的情形颱風來的情形然後他會去增加即便是同一個等級裡面他會增加他的巡檢的一個次數或者是一個巡檢的一個方法都會在這裡頭有特別的一個規定是他是一個蠻複雜的一個metric的一個表是"},{"start":6847.131,"end":6859.2,"text":"市長,那我們整個這樣巡檢完全台的邊坡預計要花多久的時間?呃,原則上我們現在是針對這個西級以上的邊坡我們希望能夠在一個月裡頭把它做一個總體檢"},{"start":6861.587,"end":6886.977,"text":"那在做分類的一個重新調整對,西級邊坡做完了以後呢他自然而然就會分級會有一些調整而且原則上是調整就是應該是增加這個很重要因為這一次我們發現基隆灘方的路段也是被評估一個穩定的一個路段而且並沒有設置所謂一個監測的一個系統那但是我們有裝設一個防護防那針對這個裝設監測系統跟"},{"start":6889.938,"end":6911.772,"text":"防護網的這個作為我們是怎麼樣做來做評估?可以這樣說明一下嗎?原則上這個有關這個鹽酸或掛網噴漿這種這種大概是邊坡上人力可及而且是相關的這個可以做處理的他會是這種方式來做邊坡的一個保護跟防護"},{"start":6912.452,"end":6938.93,"text":"那如果說是人力無法集的或是機械無法處理的他才會有剛才特別提到落實告警的這樣的一個系統是另外本期這邊還是要反映一件事情就是我們最近有霧台我們屏東霧台鄉的鄉親反映說他們有看到我們台二四線32K就是我們所謂的谷川大橋那個附近一個監測系統一次被落實砸到那目前"},{"start":6939.991,"end":6940.331,"text":"這個我請公路總局說明一下"},{"start":6956.802,"end":6973.195,"text":"預警系統基本上就因為如果說落實就是說它的來源還有就是說邊坡能夠整治的部分其實我們就是先把這個落實的來源跟邊坡整治把它做好那如果說它的來源太高或者是有一些落實其實是沒辦法判斷它的一個來源的話我們就會做落實告警系統"},{"start":6973.675,"end":6996.328,"text":"像這一次的這個4月3日地震之後我們的落實告警系統還會再增加兩座那委員所提到的這一處的話我會去再做一個評估那如果說是他的落實的來源是我們沒辦法去預期的如果來源就是說哪些的地方可以去處理的話我們一定是優先去把他的這個落實來源處理掉不行我們就會加做這個那個落實告警系統"},{"start":6997.489,"end":7017.03,"text":"本席知道我們局長對於屏東的地形相當的瞭解那尤其是我們針對整個邊坡的一個整治我們也花了很多的心力但是這一點我們還是要提醒一下這個我們的那個整個監控系統的部分瞭解瞭解去看一下對對對如果原來的系統已經不work了我們來做看怎麼樣來做處理"},{"start":7018.051,"end":7040.635,"text":"另外本席還要再提醒一下因為我們屏東縣我們的山區很遼闊那以往我們有設置一個民隧道那我們發現這個民隧道發揮了很大的一個作用尤其遇到大規模的一個土石崩落的時候那針對屏東縣的部分交通部這邊是不是有在盤點其他設置民隧道的部分能夠來減少土石滑落的一個危害性"},{"start":7041.715,"end":7069.074,"text":"對,這也是我們山坡道路管理上一個很重要的假設是可以用這個民隧道的方式來做處理我們就會來增設這個民隧道那委員這裡也有提到鋼構的這個民隧道這也是我們近期大量在採用的本起來是要求我們交通部要趕快盡快盤點然後盡快的設置並這個天候的因素隨時發生什麼變化都不曉得我們要加快這個工程的一個進度"},{"start":7070.051,"end":7091.136,"text":"是是這個我們會來加速來處理另外我再請一下運輸安全調查委員主委我想最近大家也在關心我們這個美國這個波音的這個安全性的疑慮那我們運輸安全調查有沒有掌握相關的一個資訊"},{"start":7093.263,"end":7120.636,"text":"我們有在注意但是目前為止是屬於目的市主管機關 美商局有跟我們在聯繫他也有收集一些資料這個我們還是要提醒一下委員會我們不能只有在台灣等待這個別人做的調查報告我們也應該要掌握相關的一個進度畢竟這個現在很多國人都會出國但也對於所謂的飛機飛安的一個安全的考量也相當的重視我們是不是可以加快這個時程"},{"start":7122.136,"end":7130.481,"text":"掌握這個進度一下我請那個航空組組長來因為他是機師出身他比較有青睞"},{"start":7133.585,"end":7159.694,"text":"跟委員報告您提的議題就是我們有沒有做調查實際上我們有跟民航局在聯繫因為這個飛機在國內的法規裡面是試航的所以我們會高度的關心那另外呢最近對於報災的一些關於777有一些所謂的進電釋放的問題我們也持續的關心那我們也跟航空公司大概有聯繫目前他們做了訂件以外"},{"start":7161.295,"end":7174.263,"text":"這個問題並沒有產生特別的非案疑慮以上報告對,但是還是請我們要掌握一下相關的訊息畢竟這個是國人很重視的一個議題是好,謝謝好,謝謝委員好,謝謝許富奎委員的發言休息10分鐘"},{"start":7197.035,"end":7212.726,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7224.599,"end":7247.079,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7254.435,"end":7266.584,"text":"二、邀請交通部就 «台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為»進行專題報告。"},{"start":7295.56,"end":7298.403,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7301.685,"end":7307.768,"text":"二、邀請交通部就 «台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為»進行專題報告。"},{"start":7341.686,"end":7356.932,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7365.841,"end":7369.615,"text":"二、邀請交通部就 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CODE民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷他做一些什麼時候檢查什麼時候做一些改變請問他去哪裡找到這個牌子這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到我的瞭解甚至有可能一個邊坡是兩公里我不就要去那個邊坡巡查看那台牌子在哪裡應該是你經過都會看到我的意思是說這是我們都講到AI"},{"start":8481.195,"end":8500.915,"text":"我們都講到AI啦AI叫你說喔是因為我說這個路端安全嘛那AI直接要告訴我說欸老闆現在你走過這公路局說這是第一很安全的我都還沒有講AI我只是說可不可以讓大家很因為你都已經做了嘛我要強調的就是說"},{"start":8502.751,"end":8528.3,"text":"我們政府有在做事情我們就要告訴大家有一個制度立法院委員要監督才會清楚清清楚楚啊所以是不是意外它其實在於說我們有沒有按照SOP做如果公務同仁法令的規定就是這樣子我們大家都按照SOP做做完之後不幸的它又發生了坍塌這樣叫做意外"},{"start":8529.417,"end":8547.635,"text":"那如果你不照SOP做啊這個叫做人禍因為你就不按照這個既有的規矩做事情啊所以我才會藉著這個事情我沒有責怪你們的意思啦因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們說實在話我也不知道責怪什麼但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程"},{"start":8548.215,"end":8575.943,"text":"讓他清清楚楚讓每一個公路段的工程知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情做好之後我也依規定我能做好我就公告你想知道你也可以很清楚的知道所以你都已經做了你就不怕不用怕嘛不一定要到現場那我就開車你想在一個人性我開車去旅遊我開去基隆看到邊坡我要先找到我等一下要過的時候不知道安裝沒有我還要去找先找到牌子然後開始掃QR CODE"},{"start":8577.143,"end":8604.388,"text":"掃完之後,這個是低,沒有問題,慢慢開。掃到,欸,喔,開到香了,因為這整會議案不可能會坍塌。這不合人性嘛,這不符合邏輯嘛。所以我才會建議次長,建議交通部,我們按照SOP來做,做完,我就讓大家知道說,我們都有做,每一年都有做。那豪雨過後,地震過後,我們有特別的這個處理,我們就按照這樣處理。次長你覺得我這樣的建議可不可以做得到?"},{"start":8604.688,"end":8620.682,"text":"我想委員的建議首先要說明的就是說同仁應該是各公務段的同仁應該都是有按照我剛才講的那個SOP的程序我沒有說他們沒有按照啦我只是建議說因為你都定期公告定期那個就大家都清楚嘛"},{"start":8621.492,"end":8639.725,"text":"然後接下來我想我們會跟公務局同仁來討論一下如何讓定期檢測各種檢測完的結果讓他透明的公開來除非你有其他顧慮比如說這是不能讓有國安問題不可以讓共匪知道"},{"start":8640.365,"end":8665.251,"text":"那你當然不公告嘛那其他的我剛才就講說我們相關的ABCD等級我們都有公告在道路的沿線就代表說對這種公告我們是很希望公民公開透明因為我覺得這樣子清清楚楚我們做事情清清楚楚這樣同仁也沒有壓力我都有照規矩做萬一有什麼意外發生大家不會批評因為我都照規矩做就是這個就是意外"},{"start":8667.392,"end":8680.34,"text":"啊不然吼,立法院又要檢討是不是有人禍啊是不是這樣子好,好,沒問題沒問題,是好,謝謝我們蔡其昌副院長現在我們請何欣淳委員執行呃,謝謝林委員我們是不是先請交通部次長好,陳次長"},{"start":8697.577,"end":8725.138,"text":"市長因為我剛剛聽蔡其昌委員在質詢我突然想到最近最夯的就是AI嘛那台灣是AI大國而且連AI揮打的這個黃仁勳都說世界上呢最重要最關鍵的AI的國家就是台灣那我們的這個產業鏈也都非常的完整但是呢我們好像運用在這個交通運輸系統的"},{"start":8727.132,"end":8740.68,"text":"目前看起來反而是不多剛剛有提到我從你給我的報告裡面事實上我們分級所謂的定性分級這個東西是在山區道路"},{"start":8742.082,"end":8764.691,"text":"你們自己在裡面有承認這個我們未來中長期目標115年底會建立更完整的北海岸公路的邊坡管理跟監測制度原來的這個公務局所管的省道的這個邊坡那大部分都應該是99%吧因為你們就界定是在山區道路這是你們報告裡面的第4頁"},{"start":8765.931,"end":8773.999,"text":"所以也就是說全國不是每一個省公路的邊坡都在你們的納管範圍裡面"},{"start":8776.794,"end":8798.862,"text":"委員報告下沒有啦那個是所有的只要公路總局所轄管的都有納入邊坡管理裡頭也就是剛剛有講的那個分析對然後那個報告裡頭是特別指台二線的一段沿海或者是東北角的附近有這樣的地質提醒會做"},{"start":8802.225,"end":8809.792,"text":"剛剛很多委員都有提到你們自己的報告裡面說這是自然邊坡非人工邊坡所以也沒有納入中高風險的優先關注邊坡所以也沒有設置相關的監測儀器"},{"start":8817.258,"end":8844.736,"text":"是嗎?所以你在報告的最後才說我們要來加強嗎?我們要來滾動檢討嗎?對不對?是,我們會就那一段來按照書面報告來做。但是也會擴展到...其實很多我們今天對於這個東西是在於是說我們的這個分級的一個管理跟監測制度第一個到底有沒有與時俱進第二個你說的滾動式檢討又是如何的滾動式檢討"},{"start":8847.158,"end":8869.017,"text":"這個都是其實大家最關心的因為大家不希望有另外一個意外產生還有剛剛講的能不能公開透明運用AI的這個道路這個其實我覺得可以跟數位發展部或是其他的部會跨部會合作因為大家希望是公開透明或網路"},{"start":8870.158,"end":8870.479,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8885.407,"end":8904.655,"text":"我想委員剛才特別提到就是說AI如何運用在這個交通運輸的領域這一部分其實我們在各個系統大概都有都有在在運用那委員剛才特別提到的可是你們的運用的程度運用到什麼程度啊你們現在大部分的運用是在於你們自己公務單位可能是我們工業人呃公務人員或者專業人員他們手上可能跨系統的一個"},{"start":8912.759,"end":8933.609,"text":"呃...銜接啊或者是運用也許OK但是在對從人民的角度來看我對整個大眾運輸系統也好公路運輸系統也好各項的交通運輸系統我人民對於政府給我們的公開透明的資訊的運用嚴重不足啊對不對次長"},{"start":8934.935,"end":8951.091,"text":"這個部分我想我們來看怎麼樣讓它再更加的有嚴謹這是一個很大的議題但是我只是提醒次長說如果我們是AI大國那我們公部門應該要運用AI這樣子的一個結合應該要更"},{"start":8953.46,"end":8972.634,"text":"應該怎麼講更能夠科技化數位化能夠去結合嘛對不對是我想委員的意見我們會看後續怎麼來做後續可不可以給我一個報告啦我還是希望能夠知道啦包括我們有運燃所啊運燃所裡面有很多是所謂的專業"},{"start":8973.795,"end":8993.922,"text":"科技人才啊那如何又熟悉交通運輸又熟悉這個數位化科技化的這樣子的一個專業那能夠融合在一起做應用應用很重要從人民的觀點來看我們的很多的交通運輸的安全的一些領域裡面的運用很重要不是嗎"},{"start":8994.594,"end":9014.466,"text":"是我想委員這部分我們沒有問題其實我們今天有高工局在其實高工局的1968就是一個很典型的這個AI的一個御用那是高工局啊那我們其他的交通御數安全那工種的他其實他講邊坡分級管理上他其實也是利用過去以往很多的一次的這個噴塌的數據啊或者是氣象的"},{"start":9015.587,"end":9015.907,"text":"市長請回林主委來"},{"start":9048.162,"end":9054.629,"text":"台中捷運5月10日發生的事故調查報告5月底要完成現在進度呢?"},{"start":9056.598,"end":9058.979,"text":"6月3日及6日二天發言委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9081.909,"end":9083.79,"text":"我希望可以趕快出來趕快提供你們的一個專業的意見"},{"start":9100.222,"end":9128.22,"text":"專業的意見給我們不管是交通部也好給勞動部也好給台中市政府也好我們希望看到你們最終的這個調查報告然後你們的專業的這個安全的一個建議我們希望一項一項的來要求各相關單位來調整改進改善可不可以好不好你二月底喔我就等你的報告好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝我們何欣淳委員現在請喜智傑委員發言"},{"start":9137.906,"end":9141.71,"text":"謝謝主席我們請運安會運安會林主委主委好主委好主委那個運安會現在形象你覺得有提升嗎應該有啊應該有"},{"start":9162.359,"end":9189.06,"text":"當然前一陣子風風雨雨嘛是那人民也在看說到底原來會做什麼事讓人民肯定嘛所以我就說我們應該是有一些需要主動出擊的讓人民知道我們到底做了什麼你可以看到我們的那個太空計畫現在原來會有延攬NASA的退休人才有幾位"},{"start":9191.411,"end":9206.08,"text":"太空人才部分我們現在本來要跟協同組爭取原額他沒有給,沒有給我們就想辦法在目前的航空組裡面調配人力約聘的有幾位"},{"start":9210.748,"end":9235.908,"text":"目前只有兩位在支援但是我們確實覺得是不夠因為組織法要修正通過之後才會配合這個人力所以現在已經有兩位嘛對不對是從航空組裡面調配支援那兩位現在在太空領域上你們有什麼進度這個我是不是挺航空組的組長因為他在籌備不好意思你也不太清楚"},{"start":9237.507,"end":9248.072,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛您指示的我們現在有兩位曾經參加過美國一些實際太空運作的諮詢委員有兩位現在已經諮詢委員到我們雲南會嘛對不對對他來領導我們在因為這是一個全球科學會"},{"start":9254.535,"end":9275.833,"text":"現在他來主要做什麼事他給我們一些諮詢所以我們在我們未來的太空調查方面在四個領域裡面比如說發射場站、太空載具跟衛星載具等等什麼時候來的他是在2022年已經來快兩年了吧是"},{"start":9279.209,"end":9299.042,"text":"那組織法你們調整了沒有?組織法目前我們已經成大約了那設備你們買了沒有?目前我們在盤點國內產官學的一些設備避免資源重置所以兩年有什麼實際上我們覺得運安會有做事讓我們感受得到的?"},{"start":9300.462,"end":9326.022,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在目前就是針對人力方面特別是在人力方面因為這是一個新興的領域我們目前在籌劃人力所以在籌劃人力嘛那已經來兩年了總要有一些事情讓人民看得到說這些人才來這邊做了什麼事啊是那基本上跟委員報告沒關係細節就不用論太多那個主委"},{"start":9326.969,"end":9344.052,"text":"所以我要要求的就是說總是要有一些呈現的部分讓人民看得到嘛啊不然你來到底做什麼大家都不知道啊你自己也說不出具體的東西那等於說領了不少錢啊結果成果沒有表現出來"},{"start":9345.538,"end":9367.27,"text":"沒有啦,有成果啦,這是太空,太空事故這方面目前是因為他沒有事故上還沒顯現出來是確實是應該要來籌備沒有錯啦對啊所以你都籌備兩年你總是要有一些具體的進度嘛阿進度沒有看到具體的進度當然有我在這邊做研究研究兩年沒有具體的進度那就看不出來嘛"},{"start":9368.499,"end":9389.32,"text":"我們會把書面資料提供給委員報告好那其實我之前跟主委要求就是說你類似有一些相關的活動事實上雲南會除了發生事故之外調查事故之外那其他的時間是不是有機會來做一些科普教育"},{"start":9390.88,"end":9415.275,"text":"上次我也有指示我們有計畫說那現在有什麼具體的行動嗎我們準備年底說如果交通部有在高雄市地區有辦一些交通安全展﹖不只是高雄我想全國都是可以考量你可以看到112年我跟主委問的時候主委說那個會跟交通部相關辦理一起辦理"},{"start":9416.209,"end":9443.456,"text":"然後113年我又問那你們就說那個會同交通部回復就是配合交通部本來是主動變成被動那你可以看到我們的那個鐵路節6月15號6月7號開始鐵路節慶祝活動那我一直要求就是向普悠瑪向太魯閣這個你們可不可以做一下配合鐵路節的慶祝活動"},{"start":9444.741,"end":9472.122,"text":"你總是有一些成果有一些要求將來有一些怎麼改善那怎麼樣避免將來事故再發生那這些東西是不是你們可以配合把它表現出來讓民眾可以了解可以可以這個我們可以做沒問題6月15恐怕你們已經來不及了啦現在再規劃都來不及了但是我們下半年還有很多活動可以規劃沒有問題沒有問題那可以6月15可以那我可以看得到成果"},{"start":9472.862,"end":9501.254,"text":"6月15日我請那個質詢不要回答不要隨便回答你可以就可以不可以就說不可以來不及就說來不及你現在跟我說你6月15可以我還有點主委提醒你喔問號啦主委提醒你6月15號喔我們希望你講6月15號我可以先做一些海報啦相關的一些資料那是真正事實的具體東西我們再想辦法所以主委我就說你不要隨便敷衍我我要的是有一些具體的東西是是"},{"start":9501.974,"end":9526.528,"text":"我再舉個例子齁那個我們高雄的大型的活動像2023十月食品展2024三月智慧城市展2024世界人民旅遊高峰會他們也在我們展覽館做一個展覽那你今年年底運安會年會要移師高雄你可不可以有一些表現好我們來規劃我們來規劃沒問題"},{"start":9530.12,"end":9551.254,"text":"那個主委你看前一張我都有寫日期什麼時候問你啊112年11月2號113年4月19號那今天是那個113年6月6號那年會是年底才辦那你不要敷衍我說到時候只用一張海報說我有宣導"},{"start":9552.674,"end":9580.372,"text":"好不好?你可以看到你看我附上的這些照片智慧城市展跟那個原住民旅遊高峰會其實人家都辦得還有聲有色那你今天就是說除了辦年會之外你其實你本來年會可能規劃到那邊只是就開一開會就結束了吧那你既然來了嘛是不是把它擴大展覽辦理一下讓我們看得到議員會到底做什麼事"},{"start":9581.377,"end":9584.958,"text":"好我們謝謝喜智捷委員現在請游浩委員發言"},{"start":9624.171,"end":9628.945,"text":"謝謝謝謝會議主席那先請運安會主委林主委好林主委"},{"start":9634.6,"end":9652.41,"text":"委員好主委好主委就簡單請教您就叫您在520就職大家整個部位上調整之前那時候曾經有跟您提到就是那時候有提到運安會的許多業務跟相關的研究報告的這個人力人力是不足"},{"start":9653.03,"end":9671.585,"text":"那時候在那個改組以前那時候有跟您建議就是說那其實你也知道許多的研究人員他們需要更多的一些不管是薪資上面的一個加急或者是人力上面的需求才能夠加速目前國內所有有關於運安的報告的進度啊那你還記得這件事嗎?"},{"start":9674.514,"end":9694.563,"text":"人力的部分就剛剛前面林信委所詢問的這個那你那時候有提到說會跟行政院來提報要增加人力需求那我想請教一下那現在那個都改組了有提報了嗎還沒有提報因為大家預計什麼時候要提報因為你的回答大家同仁在等啊"},{"start":9696.522,"end":9724.863,"text":"我們一個月之內來檢討看整個人力上怎麼來填飽對啊那個最主要期待的是運輸安全調查委員會能夠實際上發揮功能像是國外許多運輸安全調查委員會他們我相信在許多的報告這個有時候不要等到兩年一年那能夠的話就是加速能夠讓社會大眾能夠清楚知道進度好不好那這個月一個月內看目前來講預計怎麼樣來爭取能力源額的情況跟交通委員會大家來做個回覆好不好"},{"start":9725.083,"end":9725.103,"text":"陳事長"},{"start":9746.568,"end":9770.314,"text":"委員好市長好那延續剛才許多的委員都有在關心那當然我們知道這是天災啦那天災的話但是我們也期待的就是不管是公路局或者是包括整體交通部在這個許多的一個監測邊坡的部分那都能夠發揮更強大的功能那其實記得2010年那時候也曾經一個山崩"},{"start":9771.074,"end":9786.07,"text":"還在隧道那邊還也奪走了四車五命的一個悲劇那我們再回頭來講這次看到這個也是無預警的一個坍方坍塌那想要直接就到次長就是您對於交通的業務是非常熟悉"},{"start":9786.65,"end":9801.708,"text":"那目前在這個定量分級的部分有分A、B、C、C加還有D級的部分總共列管的1700處那目前在今天這一次發生的這個我們前幾天發生這個邊坡基隆的這一件那有是在裡面的1700處之一嗎"},{"start":9804.01,"end":9811.213,"text":"有,有在我們1008處之內是列為C級的邊坡C級嗎?那C級的話那時候有辦法預警到會隨時有發生這種突發狀況嗎?C級的邊坡就是它是相對穩定的一個邊坡他是在順風坡嗎?順向坡嗎?"},{"start":9823.917,"end":9837.227,"text":"他在這個地方是一個逆向坡上逆向坡嘛逆向坡那當初的話有沒有相關的一些監測的這個部分不管是搖管探測還是科技的巡檢在這個邊坡優先關注邊坡裡面"},{"start":9839.108,"end":9857.197,"text":"他是屬於優先關注邊坡裡面的其中之一嗎?他不是。他不是優先關注的邊坡裡面。因為他最主要他實批非常良好。所以在以往的巡檢裡頭大概看不到他有自災的一個跡象。"},{"start":9857.557,"end":9865.322,"text":"那在109年到112年省道改善計畫優先關注邊坡的科技巡檢執行經費1.7億元113年續編4千萬辦理檢測那強化這個46處移住經費20億那所以這46處也沒有涵蓋在這個邊坡"},{"start":9874.867,"end":9901.575,"text":"沒有那個是屬於我的了解應該是屬於優先關注的邊坡對那所以這個沒有在優先關注的那本席要就叫那像這樣子無預警發生的這種邊坡的這種山崩那怎麼樣能夠去強化那這個監測因為今天連您剛才也提到了這叫做植被都算是良好的邊坡但是也會發生這種無預警的那這樣子的話全台灣還有多少除包括在南投縣有沒有這種"},{"start":9902.355,"end":9928.653,"text":"沒有辦法說看起來好像是質疑不錯但實際上也會突然攤下來我想我跟委員報告原則上現在的邊坡管理為什麼會分ABCD等級就是其實他是想要降低所謂肇事的一個風險所以才會有這樣的一個等級的劃分那列在C等級裡頭但是相對於A、B來講是安全很多而且他經過一定程度的一個"},{"start":9929.934,"end":9952.69,"text":"分析以後才會到C這個等級那至於說C等級裡頭還發生了這樣的一個致災的原因我在前面幾次的報告也都有特別提到我們是不是有其他的一些地質的因素裡頭沒考慮這個我們會來考慮那另外呢剛才也有委員特別提到就是說監測的系統是不是應該來這裡看怎麼樣來布設這個我們也會在後續裡去做一些檢討"},{"start":9955.812,"end":9971.038,"text":"因為時間有限就是說希望說在這個檢測的部分能夠看用更嚴謹的方式能夠讓大家能夠心安因為這個部分如果說是C級它不是AB級那其實它相對大家應該感到安心的地方卻無意中的坍塌"},{"start":9972.018,"end":9998.012,"text":"所以我是認為本席是認為應該要通盤的來去做這個檢討因為今天是發生在基隆我也怕我的選區南投有沒有這種風險那其他各縣市都有可能有這種風險那再來就是剛才有提到他的目前的看牌他檢測那個是什麼級的看牌是立在相關的一個就是道路的旁邊那這個網路上面查不查得到哪一段是大概是多少的一個檢測的級別"},{"start":10000.874,"end":10018.422,"text":"那我是建議就是 這個回答就是一看到分手就表示說是沒有在網路上面公佈啦 這個我們來研究吧 把它做網路上的公開揭示 讓大家可以去上網查到家裡附近的或是上班途中經過的這個路段"},{"start":10019.062,"end":10037.975,"text":"那是不是屬於什麼級別那大家其實我相信因為這次的事件大家很多人都非常的關心平常行經的路上是不是有這種風險那可以的話讓大家上網也查得到我在想說這樣子也可以有利於大家行車的時候實時注意是是這個我們會來辦理好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝遊浩委員現在請廖宣祥委員發言"},{"start":10064.397,"end":10071.65,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那麻煩邀請這個我們交通部陳次長以及我們公路局陳局長請陳次長還有陳局長"},{"start":10077.247,"end":10096.548,"text":"好 謝謝兩位因為這個台二線嘛 這個70K的地方就在我的選區旁邊也非常接近啦那我想邊坡的防護是非常專業的領域啦我想我們公務單位一定都是非常努力在防範相關事故的發生所以專業的東西我今天沒有要提太多"},{"start":10097.708,"end":10119.08,"text":"首先當然是針對後續搶救的部分我想先確認一下因為我過去在地方政府擔任議員的時候雖然說我們知道說我們公共運輸的許多土方都是載到台北港去做天海照路碼對不對但是我過去在當議員的時候常常會接到地方政府又反映說其實台北港的一個"},{"start":10120.543,"end":10121.384,"text":"請他們說明一下好不好"},{"start":10142.026,"end":10168.268,"text":"這個部分我們確實這次攤方的土方也是運到台北港那跟台北港這邊我們也協調好了都協調好了嗎?最後去簽約沒有問題嗎?好那就是我想請教就是後續因為這個案子相對來說在搶救或者是之後要再加強防護相對安全因為它的邊坡是算是國有的它是那個旁邊那個海洋科學館的嘛對不對那其實不管是我們相關的道路高速公路"},{"start":10169.188,"end":10192.345,"text":"或是公路或是相關鐵路都會有許多的邊坡那會遇到很多的情況就是我們的邊坡他的土地其實不是國家的或需要在做相關的防護或監測的時候他可能會遇到一些問題我想確認一下這樣的情形普遍不普遍那我們遇到這樣的情形的時候就譬如說我們現在有一段公路旁邊是"},{"start":10193.447,"end":10198.599,"text":"私有的邊坡不是國有的那我們當他發現有危險的情況下我們可以做什麼樣子的處置"},{"start":10203.563,"end":10227.178,"text":"我簡單說明一下再請那個說明原則上剛才特別提到如果在我們的邊坡的防治的範圍裡面以前都是希望上下邊坡而且邊坡能夠到坡頂去看一下看有沒有相關的一個人為的開發的行為來影響這個邊坡的安全這個在國道走山國山走山以後在我們公路法裡頭大概有修改相關的一個規定要求這個當事人"},{"start":10229.119,"end":10249.646,"text":"要允許我們進去做相關的一個防治的作為我想這個是有但是整體的沿線是不是還有一些私人的土地私人的邊坡那我想私人邊坡從某種程度他也是一個防止這個水保的義務人對他是義務人對他也應該要做相對應的處理對但是原則上他不會"},{"start":10250.626,"end":10254.031,"text":"一般就是說上邊坡的部分的話確實有些會涉及到其他政府部門的還會跨到就是說可能"},{"start":10266.59,"end":10268.051,"text":"有可能我們授權我們可以去看可以去觀察"},{"start":10293.168,"end":10319.734,"text":"那立即的時候我們有去處理的一個權利但是比如說像現在這個台二線70K它是一個突然因為它是一個可能原本還是可能直批還是還蠻正常的一個我們原則上不認為它會坍塌的一個地方但是它就是坍塌了那對於這樣子的東西照目前的法令假設它是私人土地的情況下我們現況好像是沒有辦法針對它去做一些邊坡防霧的工程嘛是不是"},{"start":10321.748,"end":10344.653,"text":"目前這塊是那個海科館的這個路權的一個對這個個案是海科館我知道所以當我說這個個案相對單純但是我們全台我其實我不只要針對我們公路局啦而是針對所有鐵路高速公路公路甚至是我們地方政府的一些山路其實大家都會遇到這個問題邊坡公家單位的好獎那如果是私人的"},{"start":10345.413,"end":10364.455,"text":"那我要去怎麼去做防護 我們可以依照我們的程序把它納進我們交通用地或者是道路用地的範圍內去把它做一個取得或是補償或是說怎樣的方式 因為以後這樣的現象一定會持續的發生嘛 私人土地的部分"},{"start":10366.34,"end":10388.891,"text":"我想這一部分就我請公務總局去研議一下剛才有講到那個水保義務人他其實本身他就有他的義務了這個不是對他有義務但是他不會去因為東他其實說真的發生事件的時候有相關的一個規定他義務人沒有做相關的水速度保持置身這個相關的一個危害我想這個在水保法有"},{"start":10389.571,"end":10404.647,"text":"對所以我請他們再去研究一下因為發生事故的時候說真的就是我們國家出來扛啦說真的發生事情的時候我們國家沒有辦法去指責但是國家也不能說你怎麼沒有水準保持住好我們人民一定是克責我們公家單位嘛那我現在只是想說"},{"start":10405.948,"end":10430.4,"text":"既然這樣子今天就要討論這個事情的時候我們應該要整理性的來考慮私人邊坡這件事情我們是不是應該要爭取更多的我們公路機關有更多的一個權利或者是怎樣賦予私人如果說他沒有做好水路保持義務的時候他有沒有更多的一個課則然後才能系統性的來處理全國這個道路邊坡的一個系統性的問題"},{"start":10431.64,"end":10460.62,"text":"我想跟委員分開兩個啦一個是當然是在我們道路如果是在我們館養的道路的沿線上有因私人他在這個邊坡防治要作為不作為的這部分我想我們尋檢到了可以來通知他改善那另外改善的時候他不作為那其實又是另外一個問題了那就是剛才講水保法相關的規定看怎麼樣來要求他來做那在這部分呢我想如果像現行的法令還有所不足我們跟經濟部再來研究"},{"start":10460.7,"end":10483.299,"text":"我只是提醒說我們交通單位那後續就是針對我講的情況可能是如果說現在在法令方面賦予的權限不足或是法令可能有需要調整的地方那基於我們全國用戶人的一個安全那我們必須要整整思考私人邊坡這件事情怎麼樣去克服我們公安機關目前沒有辦法去強制去做維護的這個問題"},{"start":10485.12,"end":10486.701,"text":"好,謝謝我們廖先祥委員現在我們請魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":10522.24,"end":10549.698,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們交通部陳次長跟公路總局的陳局長陳局長,來公路局陳局長委員好說真的,這個兩位都是從公路總局到公路局這個也是我們前局長、現任局長你們對於這個案子應該都非常熟,尤其公路總局邊坡的一個分類我看是從之前的時代一路到現在"},{"start":10550.859,"end":10567.434,"text":"我先請教一下那一天6月4日在基隆草津公園入口處這樣的一個崩塌或者走山的一個過程我看第二天我們李部長李孟雲部長就很積極我看到好像是陳局長陪他去的"},{"start":10569.816,"end":10593.196,"text":"他那天對媒體講的第一段話我是有點嚇到是誰給他這些資料的他這樣子說這次基隆發生崩塌的地點邊坡外觀表面正常直坯生長情況也良好再來他說了過去一無發生崩塌的現象陳局長這是你跟部長說的嗎"},{"start":10595.029,"end":10619.433,"text":"還是他自己打破夢到的?就是那個在沒有大規模的一個就有零星落石這個部分的話所以在112年的時候就是說他曾經有零星落石我們有提升邊坡的等級然後修復之後就是說又降為西級所以表面看起來職務很好嗎?"},{"start":10622.142,"end":10623.946,"text":"因為我重複看了一下現場民眾提供的圖片"},{"start":10634.235,"end":10653.359,"text":"哇 右邊這是112年9月去年9月這次還沒有大崩塌之前也就是說我們部長在形容的右邊這個水泥你們整個大面積整修完的這個結果然後正面積多大啊邊坡噴凝土的一個掛網啊這麼大"},{"start":10655.8,"end":10682.094,"text":"然後部長當然他去的時候是已經崩下來了可是你這樣子跟當地的民眾說奇怪這麼多年來這個植物都生長得很好也看不出來任何的問題我覺得有點莫名其妙過去沒有崩塌這也莫名其妙當然不管是小規模落實民眾反應你們這邊早就圍四月就開始把它圍起來了嘛"},{"start":10682.614,"end":10706.955,"text":"而且如果沒有問題你們會做這麼大的面積的工程嗎所以陳局長還是次長這個不能給部長喔部長過去選水利的我們很多人是擔心他到底交通的一個專業夠不夠但後面我們覺得其實這是一個團隊團隊做得起來就OK但是你團隊若不說實話坦白講你說這莫名其妙嘛"},{"start":10707.782,"end":10730.938,"text":"所以過去沒有崩塌你們都補到這樣的去年9月都補到這麼多了你們也花了不少錢嘛我們也肯定你有問題的時候你們有去補嘛所以這個照片出來第一個你們當時有去修補有去預防嘛可是在部長的第一時間講這個我又覺得很奇怪你們自己想想看他到底哪裡拿到錯誤訊息第二個"},{"start":10731.718,"end":10759.685,"text":"你們分級有制度但是其實對一般邏輯上面大家不解的是什麼你們因為都是A、B、C、D按理說他的狀況是順順的上去或順順的下來但是有時候天威難測啦大自然有時候他是D看起來很安全的一個就下來所以你從安全的直接跳到A級我覺得這是沒辦法預測的"},{"start":10760.965,"end":10785.215,"text":"可是如果你要從A級馬上再跳回來CD級我就覺得很奇怪你知道嗎你這樣子去年4月4月份這是4月份的相片看起來好像實在還不錯但是那時候4月份事實上你們還是第一期就最安全的完全無狀況但到了6月份"},{"start":10786.826,"end":10809.916,"text":"你們開始準備修補了你們就直接跳成A級我覺得這合理嘛因為出事了嘛原本安定的穩定的這個他現在變不安定了嘛我覺得這可以接受可是當你去修補之後修補這一塊之後你馬上也沒有把它列在B級直接跳到C級次長講一下是什麼道理"},{"start":10811.776,"end":10829.375,"text":"我跟委員報告一下首先這個也是稍微回應一下就是說部長到現場的時候剛才陳局長他在特別講到因為以往是有林信的像這種邊坡的滑動或落石那真的大面積的一個崩塌是沒有所以他大概是這樣"},{"start":10830.536,"end":10853.954,"text":"大面積的修補是有嗎?等一下修補我再來講,就是說這樣的他大概想表達是這樣的一個沒有,我就問你A級變C級A級變C級因為這有落石有一些滑落所以依照我們的分級的等級裡頭因為就有災害事件所以我們就把它升級為A級然後來關注它來做一些處理"},{"start":10854.714,"end":10856.136,"text":"那為什麼不變成B級 我的問題就這樣了嘛 A級最危險了嘛 休一休"},{"start":10878.197,"end":10888.834,"text":"你剛剛已經回答委員囉通常我們修好之後我們會觀察一段時間合理合理觀察一段時間我告訴你這工程9月21日完工112年9月21日報竣工"},{"start":10893.629,"end":10908.054,"text":"你們什麼時候把它變成C級的10月份牛頭對不了馬尾這是莫名其妙你知道嗎你剛剛回答我也覺得啊那第二個你們所謂B級的災害的定義兩年內曾經發生災害"},{"start":10912.641,"end":10935.773,"text":"然後C級是五年內曾有災害他明明就符合說才剛修完我觀察個一年到兩年如果都沒有問題他就符合你B級的定義我這樣講的意思說希望齁你們未來像這樣的有危險的一個地方你明明做修補了A級他應該先降到B級按照你們的規定觀察兩年"},{"start":10936.613,"end":10956.009,"text":"他曾經有落實嘛你被修補了但觀察兩年父親沒有在狀況才要調而不是觀察不到一個月9月21號報竣工然後10月份就把他調到C級我覺得你們可不可以回去檢討一下這種調的方式可以嗎我想委員的意見我們則請公務局再去檢討一下"},{"start":10957.31,"end":10957.87,"text":"您主委"},{"start":10989.057,"end":11011.989,"text":"這個國家運輸安全調查中心說真的啊你心中是到底想不想做啊因為之前我們洪現在這個洪孟楷委員之前有問過你啦你的意思就是說其實很多跟大學合作啦研究中心合作啊也可以取代類似的功能現在到底是不是這樣啦因為我跟你講喔我們從上屆開始跟你之前的主委為這個事情討論辯論預算為什麼要怎麼編"},{"start":11016.002,"end":11042.657,"text":"講得真的是讓我們太感動了非要不行不然這國家這個運安可能會毀掉就現在怎麼輕輕鬆鬆的好像都沒有事情啊現在到底做不做那現在行政院當時跟你叫暫停的原因是說你原本的規劃沒有把電動車納入我也覺得一定要納入因為這是未來的趨勢那另外一個太空太空的一個檢驗我的天啊也要納入那現在納入情況如何可以做到嗎"},{"start":11044.66,"end":11062.303,"text":"我們是這樣子啦,我們那棟大樓裡面有消防署,他有三個層樓,那麼他在107年的時候他要搬遷,他談出來的空間,我們有做規劃,剛好可以容納我們要做醫術研究中心的一些設備,可以慢慢進來。"},{"start":11063.184,"end":11074.91,"text":"剛好,太空也可以容納進去吧?應該可以應該可以因為我們如果要到宜蘭去做太空運動訓練你們三層樓你現在他678是不是三層樓對總面積多少?樓地板面積多少?"},{"start":11077.305,"end":11078.465,"text":"五點七二一的是設備那這個設備"},{"start":11103.021,"end":11114.734,"text":"有什麼變化嗎?這個設備是這樣子我們當時問題要檢查電動車那設備是要增加又要太空你設備不用增加嗎?你們現在到底有沒有規劃設備經費是5.7億是多還是少夠不夠?"},{"start":11119.922,"end":11135.216,"text":"當時的規劃的設備是建築式的。那麼原來在宜蘭的那個工程中心,當時那個space說要做那個運具的長海、展覽等等。那第一個原因是因為當地的"},{"start":11136.437,"end":11140.04,"text":"所以你現在殘骸要放在哪裡?你不要擴大問題喔?所以殘骸未來要搭電梯上去到678樓嗎?你在說什麼?"},{"start":11158.997,"end":11175.232,"text":"就是那個空地放殘骸民眾有意見那整棟大樓你說這些殘骸是你要用678樓取代這個功能好啦我就時間到了我要拜託你這個國家運安工程是不是要新建一個大樓還是你要用什麼樣的線路的樓層去"},{"start":11176.753,"end":11197.349,"text":"取代我希望你要有詳細的規劃跟計劃我們希望就算你不要A案你變B案我下次問你的時候B案要有哪些設備要多少經費你要完全知道你不能告訴我我只是不要這個不要那個我要什麼可不可以下次你們有一個對於六七八樓運用的完整的計劃另外"},{"start":11198.81,"end":11214.415,"text":"進不去大樓的你們要選擇什麼場子比如說大的殘骸你要放哪裡你不可能坐電梯上去嘛還用吊車吊上去當地民眾會不會會被那個complain呢最後拜託你們要精確的規劃因為上次這個規劃你們用掉了多少萬現在不做了你們用掉了多少錢啊"},{"start":11219.944,"end":11235.968,"text":"大概一百來萬做規劃後來就就因為要等交往你們109年的總預算的一個稅數報告是匡列800以執行836萬喔對不對然後有些是租金那實際實際用在規劃設計預先的到底是多少錢"},{"start":11240.885,"end":11268.056,"text":"大概...董委員告訴我大概400萬啦一百萬變四百萬因為...因為這個就是...啊你好啦這樣好不好你給交通委員一個報告啦我...我是不是會給你一個書面報告第二個齁你要很清楚的先期規劃第二個先期取得行政院的支持啦你不要現在告訴我們678三層樓消防署他的什麼空軍救總他離開了就是你們的萬一到最後落了半天又不是你們的整個規劃真的..."},{"start":11269.717,"end":11292.892,"text":"真的真的很離譜啦好不好我覺得你要行政院先同意謝謝是是謝謝好謝謝我們魯明哲委員現在請邱若驊委員執行謝謝主席請陳次長公主陳局長"},{"start":11297.355,"end":11299.539,"text":"交通部我們陳次長陳局長委員好"},{"start":11305.143,"end":11330.24,"text":"部長好 局長好首先我們同樣的先來看到基隆超級公園這週一發生的山崩那李部長也要求公路局然後還有鐵道局的單位一個月內都要完成盤點全國C級的邊坡那包含國道鐵道然後還有高鐵台鐵都需要全面來做檢視那我這邊要請教局長在4月16號的時候交通委員會要求公路局重新盤點危險路段還有布"},{"start":11331.121,"end":11356.422,"text":"還有不穩定的邊坡並提出改善那局長也說不穩定的邊坡會增加預計7月公佈那經過這件事之後7月會如期公佈嗎因為這個邊坡的分期的話我們是滾動式檢討那就是在這一個災害發生之後就是我們在做復建工程那復建工程之後的話都都會做相關的一個分期檢討所以上次4月16那時候質詢的時候是說這個像"},{"start":11358.784,"end":11378.243,"text":"臺八線臺九線的一些邊坡的話我們也會都做相關的一個分級的提升的部分那這一次的部分我想因為一樣就是這個一個月內的話我們把西級邊坡做一個通盤的檢視之後那需要提升為B級的部分我想我們也會來做那4月16號至今的盤點的建樹大約是有多少處"},{"start":11379.216,"end":11403.661,"text":"4月16號那個時候其實是主要是因為是這個4月3號地震之後那發生的主要的邊坡的受影響的部分都是在這個台九蘇花公路跟台八的中環公路所以那邊的話就是說這個台九的話跟台八都有十幾處的一個邊坡我們正在做這個相關復建那所以在做這個整個7月份的時候也會一併做檢討"},{"start":11405.27,"end":11433.236,"text":"那其實在交通委員會這個會期已經不少委員對於鐵路公路還有國道邊坡的風險管理還有監測還有討論監測的範圍邊坡落石預警都要求要加強管理了那還有偵測預警系統那難道等到災害才能改善嗎那很遺憾是因為這週一發生這起事件那才提出了經濟和調整的管理計畫那我們的盤點方式有什麼經濟跟改善還是依照過去的方式"},{"start":11435.692,"end":11465.341,"text":"因為這一次他其實就是說從這一個這個無人機空拍的話基本上就是說他的直批其實算是良好那比較沒有這個自災的徵兆不過他主要大概就是說在這個土壤岩石的結構裡面他有一些這一個節理的這一個這個主柱的他也增加了而且為他也就是說有點就是說也就是說他的這個雨水滲入去裂縫以後就是說他產生比較多的一個就是說大概"},{"start":11465.481,"end":11492.328,"text":"局長那我這邊先舉例2020年12月台鐵喉痛斷那也發生大規模的走山那當初原本這一段是被列為C級那是相對穩定的區域那當時那個制度也被遭到質疑那台鐵局也費時3個月來做分級檢討制度嘛那找出潛在的邊坡風險並管理分類那就那件事之後難道我們的鐵道還有國道公路邊坡管理就沒有再重新再做檢討嗎"},{"start":11494.682,"end":11517.061,"text":"那個部分的話其實上次其實對於西級邊坡就是說主要是對於那個比如說坡頂的開發水的一個因素的部分其實已經都做完全面的一個體檢而且上次包括就是說比如說水的因素的部分的話其實在布裡面的各局都有做相關的一個檢視然後而且也做了這個改善跟這個這個邊坡等級的一個提升"},{"start":11518.586,"end":11537.585,"text":"議員提到科技的方式來做預測1968是我們公路局的APP是嗎?是高工局的APP同樣在氣象署他們也有開發許多的APP都有即時的推播我們的公路局跟高工局這邊有做配合嗎?即時的推播"},{"start":11541.237,"end":11567.019,"text":"我來瞭解趙局長對對對氣象的1968是有的跟委員報告我們現在跟氣象局的部分有合作那目前氣象我們在國道有90處的氣象站那也加上那個整個氣象局那個雨量的一個部分在1968你可以直接看到那個當即時的狀況我覺得那是降雨量那我是說比如說發生就是像這次的公踏事故的話能不能即時的提醒用路人"},{"start":11567.239,"end":11568.92,"text":"OK,那未來可以做結合嗎?"},{"start":11578.493,"end":11604.803,"text":"在直接有交通的東西他會下指令只會就是在1968上面就會有顯示就是說假如說道路中斷或怎樣都會先在道路沿線很多的CMS上他會就秀出就是說比如說哪裡來道路阻斷對電池看板上都會有是OK那因為這邊時間的關係我先請鐵道局鐵道局楊楊局長請假來副局長"},{"start":11610.486,"end":11611.127,"text":"市長知道嗎?跟委員報告,現在在那個國發會在審議當中"},{"start":11633.852,"end":11650.963,"text":"還在審議當中那我這邊要特別提到由於主線的電機系統它的擴充時它的擴充時限於今年的6月19號將近那副局長應該了解如果未依限期那這個機電廠商系統擴充的路段本計劃因為沒有契約"},{"start":11652.063,"end":11668.859,"text":"條款的限制後續可能大幅增加數十億的成本那如果另行公開招標的話那全面更新原本的系統會增加到百億元那交通部可以積極協助避免我們經費大幅增加嗎是這部分我們來協助看是如何來加速處理"},{"start":11669.804,"end":11670.344,"text":"請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":11695.384,"end":11710.887,"text":"好謝謝主席我想先請我們交通部的陳次長好陳次長鐵道局鐵道局李副局長李副局長來鐵道局還有高鐵的總經理好高鐵馮總經理來我也好次長好我想先請教這個"},{"start":11727.313,"end":11741.217,"text":"因為之前高鐵發生的這個九側就是有列車長規避了九側還上車執行我想請問一下到目前為止有沒有任何的懲處現在是總經理是跟委員報告是有懲處怎麼樣懲處"},{"start":11754.624,"end":11776.502,"text":"這個有關於違規的人就是在列車長跟督導的部分都有做一些懲處這是你們內部懲處?是請問鐵道局有做懲處嗎?我們會依鐵路法現在會做那個裁罰還沒有做裁罰?對,現在我們好,那裁罰要怎麼樣裁罰法?"},{"start":11779.349,"end":11783.219,"text":"就是按照鐵路法那個他那個沒有按規定去做這些90老會去裁罰嗯"},{"start":11786.567,"end":11813.44,"text":"到目前為止沒有做裁罰我要講的是我要講的是大家可以看到在這個甚至去年去年底的時候台鐵也一樣發生了一些相關的缺失其中台鐵沒有落實酒測的部分裁罰60萬元這是鐵道局做的裁罰但是高鐵的部分到目前為止鐵道局還沒有做裁罰所以我要講的是"},{"start":11816.94,"end":11837.958,"text":"台鐵、高鐵他們的這個管理一樣重要。如果是同樣的狀況的話,不應該有兩套標準,對不對?是,是標準一樣。好,那另外請鄭總經理再多做說明一下,你們裡面的懲處是到什麼樣的層級?"},{"start":11841.448,"end":11865.042,"text":"還是就是只有這個列車長跟還有幫他去那個什麼就是沒有幫他做酒測的我們是除了這個當事人有做懲處以外也到督導的這個主管也做了一些懲處督導的主管也做懲處是好那時間暫停一下我再請那個運安會的主委好來林主委"},{"start":11870.072,"end":11894.773,"text":"市長也一起聽因為我之前就包含我跟油耗委員我們都提到因為高鐵最近其實出現了一些重大的一些公安事件那最主要的就是應該依照規定作為按照SOP的一些他必須要斷電的沒有斷電而造成了比如說行駛中的車輛"},{"start":11895.914,"end":11909.93,"text":"就跑到隧道裡面就突然的就是突然的因為停電而停止那又或者呢因為沒有斷電而造成在施工中的人員受傷還好沒有人命的這個危險"},{"start":11910.956,"end":11939.256,"text":"那這個是連續發生他是從4月9號到5月11號短短的一個多月之內連續發生兩件那我想請問一下這個部分勞動部就是而且地方的勞動局會介入調查那當然高鐵也應該做他自己的行政調查我想請問一下這些公安事件他同時的會影響這個他的運輸安全的部分那麼運安會"},{"start":11940.777,"end":11967.726,"text":"查不查?法不法?這個案子他們是有通報啦但是沒有達到立案的標準所以你們院會沒有立案為什麼?因為根據那個重大運輸事務不重要不是不重要因為他不在調查範圍裡面為什麼不在調查範圍裡面重大運輸事務調查範圍裡面他有幾個規定一定要出事了出事了才要調查是嗎?"},{"start":11969.056,"end":11990.028,"text":"它有一定的標準我要特別提到就是不要等到出事其實我們一直在盯那個台灣高鐵這些相關的這個事件其實我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆而不要等到發生事故的時候然後呢大家才在做事後的這個來追究處罰"},{"start":11991.989,"end":12007.374,"text":"所以現在連續發聲就是應該要去那個未雨綢繆另外我請教一下我們的交通部次長次長你知不知道因為我們交通部是臺灣高鐵的第一大股東對不對那你知不知道"},{"start":12010.555,"end":12031.475,"text":"這個高鐵最近改了他的這個公司章程然後對這個董事長退職可以給予這個退職金所以呢他算起來如果按照我們現在的董事長江耀宗董事長他做8年嘛那他起碼可以拿到560萬的退職金"},{"start":12033.957,"end":12043.474,"text":"在這個即將就是在新舊政府交接之際然後改這個公司章程請問一下交通部有掌握嗎?"},{"start":12045.371,"end":12074.431,"text":"我想跟委員報告台高公司的相關的一個董事會的處理交通部是有所了解的但是原則上我們尊重他公事治理的相關的一個程序而且他在他這一件事情其實是沒有針對性的他是屬於公司的組織商層的一個條件沒有啊你這個做完當然第一任就是董事長就是江耀宗啊所以我問你就是你們交通部事前知情嗎"},{"start":12076.274,"end":12083.97,"text":"我們有瞭解相關的這個董事會裡頭要討論這樣的一個議案所以你們事前知情事後同意"},{"start":12084.796,"end":12110.909,"text":"我們尊重他們那個公司自己的結果很尊重那其他的公司是不是也可以同樣如法炮製大家都改一下公司章程因為這個新政府上來很可能這些相關的公營事業可能這些董事長甚至總經理可能都會有換人的狀況趕快未雨綢繆還是台灣高鐵比較聰明趕快來為自己的董事長來量身定做做一個他可以領這個560萬退資金"},{"start":12113.05,"end":12131.145,"text":"通通可以嗎?我想跟委員報告每一家公司的營運的情形也都不一樣所以我剛才才會講到說會做這樣的一個處理跟調整是要經過公司董事會而且是公司治理的這樣的一個你左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你們就是最大股東啊"},{"start":12132.486,"end":12158.879,"text":"最大股東是要去監督瞭解但是整個營運上我覺得還是要尊重公司自己我覺得這件事情這個當然就是有關於董事長總經理尤其董事長的退資金不是不可以討論但是你在這個時候新舊政府交接的時候去弄一個這樣的組織章程難免瓜田李下難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款"},{"start":12160.24,"end":12177.376,"text":"如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話那其他的你們相關公司可能經濟部下面公司大家都趕快做啊因為也不曉得哪一天我就會被換掉啊趕快來通過這些自肥條款如果此例一開大家都這樣做"},{"start":12178.317,"end":12201.588,"text":"所以我覺得這是沒有體制的那我覺得交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做其實是並不合理的事情而且你不能用左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你今天交通部你們都同意按照你這樣講你事先就同意那麼下面就是交通部所有的相關的事業單位大家都可以來做我覺得這才合理啊怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢"},{"start":12203.042,"end":12220.695,"text":"我還是要跟委員報告每一家公司它的營運的情形跟狀況是不一樣的所以說我剛才才會一再的強調其實每一家公司都還有獨立的一個公司的人格所以它公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的而且是不同看待的是"},{"start":12221.363,"end":12249.911,"text":"反正你先講半天就是你同意他這樣子所以我也建議大家全部都如法炮製大家趕快來做一做這邊就是他不是按照什麼就是你只要做一年就可以領兩個月做半年也可以領一個月用這種方式嘛這個真的是自肥條款啦好不好這個其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好我想委員的意見可以留供台高公司參考謝謝"},{"start":12252.213,"end":12279.247,"text":"好,謝謝我們王宏威委員現在請鄭天才委員發言好,主席,各位委員,還有請次長好,陳次長"},{"start":12288.497,"end":12312.226,"text":"委員好次長好辛苦了是這個0403大地震之後遺震非常非常的多了這一直到前幾天都還有遺震所以很特殊的一個地震所以蘇花公路一再的攤房在5月10號當然我們之前也有攤房過5月10號攤房"},{"start":12316.397,"end":12337.591,"text":"然後這個在6月的時候又攤方所以這個部分6月1日也攤方另外就是在6月3日台九縣蘇拉公路162.9K從德隧道北端又攤方所以這個部分這個"},{"start":12341.267,"end":12353.213,"text":"還好都沒有造成砸到這個車輛這個是很幸運的一個地方所以這個部分這個交通部公路總局到底有什麼樣因應的做法"},{"start":12355.189,"end":12374.37,"text":"施根委員報告目前因為確實就是10月3日地震之後的話這個余震這個尤其在花蓮市非常多那就是說這個受災比較嚴重的台九的蘇花跟台八的中橫那目前大概就是說落實的部分我們第一個就是"},{"start":12375.751,"end":12401.222,"text":"及攤及清6月3日從崩塌的崩塌到隔天早上6點清完就開放通行其他的像台九蘇花公路沿線有一些邊坡的話當然就是說我們開放通行的話第一階段就是它的上邊坡的浮石的部分我們一定是先把它刷下來就是說通行安全上沒有問題"},{"start":12402.122,"end":12426.577,"text":"另外就是說因為邊坡還是要做整體的一個這個防治那所以台九線的蘇花沿線的這個邊坡受損的部分我們要做到年底要做到年底的話就是說能夠就是說有一些邊坡的整治會有告一個段落那目前蘇花公路其實只剩下就是說下清水橋這邊大概就是它有一個就是說這一個原來的橋樑要做復建所以大型車輛這個5月30日也通車了"},{"start":12429.339,"end":12452.172,"text":"目前只有在這個日間這個早上8點到下午的5點在做施工的時候會有做時段性的管制那夜間的時候沒有管制那基本上就是民眾的通行沒有問題當然就是有時候因為地震或者是降雨比較多他會有零星的落石那那個部分我們如果掌握的話都會及時的這個封路不要讓民眾就是說因為這個會有落石還要開進這個區域"},{"start":12455.496,"end":12471.222,"text":"大清水那邊在5月31日已經通過大車了通過大車這個通過大車之前我也去了通過大車那這段時間有沒有探訪過"},{"start":12474.234,"end":12475.276,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":12486.746,"end":12514.158,"text":"防護的那個什麼時候會完成那個大概就是說都是在年底前基本上的防護措施年底前大概邊坡的防護包括這個防落石網還有一些邊坡的整治都會做相關的處理所以這個部分是一個需要積極的來去處理的部分當然工程還是有它的一個極限所以我們"},{"start":12515.629,"end":12531.282,"text":"要最安全的就是要趕快把舒華安能夠開始施工而現在就是因為環評出省二月二十號的時候還要補正然後"},{"start":12532.492,"end":12557.751,"text":"5月14日第二次的專案小組出省會議建議通過而已還要再修正你們送修了沒有對就是5月14日就是這個環評專案小組已經出省建議通過那這個會議的結論是說7月底以前就是要把補充的資料送進去那公路局這邊會加速那大概7月15號我們7月15號會送"},{"start":12560.914,"end":12566.758,"text":"會會會因為他有一些要補充補充的一些調查或是有一些說明資料我們原則上一定會盡快"},{"start":12568.124,"end":12597.124,"text":"這個因為齁這個最重要的是除了你們要趕快送趕快送這個從5月14號到現在也蠻久了所以第一個要趕快送5月22號在這邊的時候也有質詢次長說趕快送送了之後要告訴我我來去協調環境部我也質詢過環境部啊我在5月22號啊我也質詢了環境部啊收到的時候要提早開"},{"start":12598.744,"end":12621.756,"text":"提早開這個環評大會因為這個是真的是拖太久了因為這剛才講的那些落實那些包括 攤房的那個部分都是在舒華安要做的地方嘛所以這個部分越早完成就可以更有安全的一個來往的一個交通道路好不好"},{"start":12623.326,"end":12623.866,"text":"現在請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":12650.523,"end":12660.471,"text":"議員主席,是否可以麻煩邀請應援會的主委以及交通部的政事陳政事好,應援會林主委還有我們交通部陳次長好,委員好"},{"start":12668.95,"end":12686.321,"text":"兩位,延續了上一次質詢的重點也就是針對自駕車的發展我說過讓人類的生活更美好這樣子一個高科技的發展我基本上是支持的我上次質詢的重點是不要胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":12687.699,"end":12704.06,"text":"找一些莫名其妙的廠商用虛偽不實的得獎紀錄來詐騙台灣政府莫名其妙可惡至極啊結果我們中央政府跟地方政府全部都呆呆傻傻的錢一直掏出去"},{"start":12706.095,"end":12729.264,"text":"然後給這種像詐騙集團的廠商一樣因為他政治後台比較硬嗎這是我上一次質詢的重點但我今天要繼續沿著是另外一個層次因為這個自駕車的實驗在交通部的主導之下在我國好幾個城市都有在進行吧但我要問的是說你們說現在還在技術驗證"},{"start":12733.973,"end":12753.546,"text":"的階段當中然後在沙盒裡面實驗這個我都聽得懂那問題是什麼問題是你在沙盒裡面實驗啊不可以實驗出問題什麼叫不可以實驗出問題來我跟市長報告一下台61西濱快速道路啊因為"},{"start":12754.875,"end":12771.66,"text":"不用過路費嘛跟高速公路不一樣嘛所以呢所以有很多大貨車大卡車其實都是乾坡人啦在送貨的時候都走台61嘛所以你看一下4月13號死亡車禍4月6號死亡車禍5月4號死亡車禍都是今年喔"},{"start":12778.7,"end":12800.964,"text":"我只是很簡單去搜尋過去兩個月在台61西濱快速道路所出現的死亡車禍就這麼多了結果你們在搞自駕車的計畫的時候竟然選在台61搞在整個計畫開始以前就很多人提醒你們說這個台61車禍多狀況複雜大家都在質疑結果你們還是過了"},{"start":12808.397,"end":12826.366,"text":"還是過了第一個你們在審查的整個過程當中我要問的第一個問題是說公路總局是整個自駕車沙盒的計畫推動機關然後你們自己也是沙盒實驗的審查委員自己的計畫自己審這樣對嗎來請市長"},{"start":12832.258,"end":12834.379,"text":"我們看一下無人載具科技創新實驗智慧台61公路自駕運行計畫"},{"start":12860.777,"end":12871.375,"text":"你們交通部公路總局的章委員順清說的公總在本案有雙重角色一個是計畫推動機關也是本案在沙盒實驗的審查委員"},{"start":12874.401,"end":12893.533,"text":"白紙黑字寫這樣現在有問題很簡單啊你自己推動自己審查可以這樣搞嗎我再跟委員說說明這個沙盒計畫的審查他本來就有邀請各機關來提供他各機關來提供委員所以但是整體沙盒計畫的審查這個是在經濟部"},{"start":12896.135,"end":12910.829,"text":"所以我想這個或許是我們當時如果是審查交通部的計畫說不定是這個相關委員是不是有應該要迴避的問題是好你講的很好齁如果在審查你們這個自駕車五輪載具的時候"},{"start":12913.251,"end":12933.637,"text":"你們交通部派出去的特別是公路總局該迴避就要迴避啊怎麼會大剌剌的自己在審查會議講這個計畫我推動的然後這個計畫我還參與審查我扮演雙重角色這不是我說的欸這你們委員自己講的欸可以這樣嗎難怪大家會質疑嘛那台61當初大家在質疑這麼危險"},{"start":12939.019,"end":12966.736,"text":"死亡車禍這麼多你們在上面搞自駕車的沙盒你們心臟會不會太大顆啊結果今年1月真的你們的自駕車台61擦撞自行車造成騎士受傷我看到這件事情的時候我覺得啊真的是佛祖有保佑只有擦傷佛祖有保佑只有擦傷但這個是一個明顯的事故"},{"start":12968.917,"end":12978.03,"text":"針對這個明顯的事故對照到你們當初在台六十一推動的時候大家所提出來的質疑公路總局有沒有重新檢討還要執意這樣幹下去嗎"},{"start":12982.605,"end":13002.556,"text":"先來說明一下然後看局長要不要補充啊原則上這台六十一的事辦的計畫委員剛才看到雖然是台六十一但是他這是屬於平面路段平面路段因為有高架以後所以平面路段的交通量確實比較少而且沿線大概都是一些漁村所以當時他會選在這裡而且是希望以公共運輸的方式來處理"},{"start":13003.656,"end":13029.977,"text":"但是這一件事情所以事故不是發生了嗎是我要跟委員這個事故發生了以後我了解目前這個計畫目前是在暫停的階段好你說的你說到重點了齁現在計畫是在暫停的階段嘛暫停了以後大家就要評估安不安全嘛可不可以繼續搞下去嘛但我現在得到的資訊是什麼我現在得到的資訊是啊拿到這一億元標案的廠商"},{"start":13031.54,"end":13059.421,"text":"一億元標案嘛這個案子是一億對不對對吧這個可能要要查一下我我全部都查過啦前兩年五千萬後三年五千萬加起來一億啦沙盒如果不繼續錢拿不到所以他一定要讓沙盒進去他後面的錢才拿得到嘛那廠商已經非常大剌剌的在外面講啊這個審查會議我們走過場啊一定會過"},{"start":13060.836,"end":13082.694,"text":"因為不夠我後面的錢拿不到我聽到這樣的聲稱啊我非常的震驚啊來看一下你們在跨部會台61自駕案10月續型評估會議當中審查委員怎麼講的來請次長仔細看我也拜託那個運安會的主委你也一起看一下因為真的出了事哦真的出了事接下來就運安會的事了啦"},{"start":13083.936,"end":13110.858,"text":"安全事故報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查安全事故報告應該上網公開美國加州DMV所主責的自駕車上路測試也同樣要求安全事故報告要上網公開所以這個事故的安全事故調查報告應該要重來來我先問一下次長現在這個事故的安全事故調查報告誰在做"},{"start":13114.389,"end":13115.631,"text":"來請運輸安全調查委員會主委"},{"start":13128.753,"end":13155.645,"text":"站不贊成我們一件事一件事啦站不贊成第17點委員所發表的意見安全事故調查報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查主委有贊成嗎?如果經濟部宣布他邀請公正專業第三方進行調查的話我們可以協助但是重大運輸事故的調查會屬於實現性質的事故是不在範圍內的好沒有關係啦我知道你不希望運安會現在就扛這個鍋嘛"},{"start":13157.006,"end":13180.9,"text":"那即使不是你運安會的鍋你也要搞一個公正專業的第三方嘛那公正專業的第三方主委要不要承擔我都尊重啊你說不在你法定職權的範圍嘛但我要請教主委的事情是人家提出來這個意見很中肯啊主委認不認同他提出來的意見他是他不了解"},{"start":13182.782,"end":13206.084,"text":"不是啦,他只有說公正專業的第三方,人家就沒有講運安會,你不要緊張嘛。對對對,但是如果他有公正專業的第三方進行調查的時候,運安會的相關調查技術可以支援嗎?好,非常好。運安會要支援嘛。來,次長,在不贊成這個事故調查報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查?這個我、我們支持。你們支持?現在有這樣做嗎?"},{"start":13208.813,"end":13230.071,"text":"現在有這樣做嗎?這就是我的問題了因為現在的調查報告荒謬是什麼?申請拿到沙盒的人自己在提報告自己出事故自己提報告那等於是什麼?出了事故的人自己檢討自己自己評估自己是在檢討什麼?"},{"start":13231.152,"end":13247.704,"text":"是在評估什麼?市長你剛答應了嘛說你贊成要由公正專業的第三方進行調查接下來台61自駕車的這個計畫要不要續行下去我們就先請公正專業的第三方來進行事故調查市長可不可以承諾"},{"start":13248.524,"end":13271.545,"text":"我想委員他這裡頭因爲他有一定的一個機制在這裡頭做相關的有關這個沙盒實驗的一個評估那他這裡頭特別特別提到他評估的結論是希望用那個調查的報告到這個應該是一個委員會裡頭去討論所以我想這個委員會裡頭的相關的委員自然都會有一個第三方公證人這個委員會的委員包括這個委員會做的評估"},{"start":13274.668,"end":13297.693,"text":"不是申請人自己提出來的報告而已喔申請人自己提報告自己調查自己那個是笑話你們成立了這個小組有哪些委員他們評估的內容是不是可以讓社會大眾知道也提供給所有交通委員會的委員這是很重要我已經說了喔出了事是佛祖有保佑所以只是擦傷"},{"start":13299.076,"end":13319.704,"text":"委員這個我們來聯繫我的了解這個的委員會或這個審查會是經濟部在召開的啦好沒關係啦你們跨部會去跟經濟部講好嘛是我們建議他我們在建議他發展自駕車要實驗委員的審議我們都贊成啦你台挑台61線之前就有人警告過了啊現在真的出事啊"},{"start":13320.504,"end":13340.55,"text":"分紅小可啊要嚴肅面對啊是我們會嚴肅面對那至於說經濟部那個委員會希望一些比較公正專業的人士來加入這個我們來建議他我們來建議他你們打算怎麼處理你們跟經濟部聯合起來一週之內交書面報告可以嗎你最起碼讓大家知道你要怎麼處理嘛可以可以我們來一個禮拜之內齁"},{"start":13343.267,"end":13358.959,"text":"一個禮拜會不會我們怎麼處理來提供讓委員知道啦好不好不要書面提供啊是啊書面提供吧怎麼處理一個禮拜之內可以嗎我們要跟經濟部協商啊兩個禮拜三個禮拜三個禮拜好可以三個禮拜好謝謝"},{"start":13361.753,"end":13372.421,"text":"謝謝我們黃國昌委員現在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請林業勤委員執行"},{"start":13385.755,"end":13408.955,"text":"麻煩我們交通部次長跟我們的運安會的主委好來陳次長林主委委員好好次長好和主委好下一頁這個事實上是在2022年的時候當時的賴副總統出席運安會研討會三週年的研討會的時候"},{"start":13410.255,"end":13427.527,"text":"對運安的一個期許強調未來運安會應該能夠在專業調查跟資訊公佈以外能夠進一步的話被動為主動並接軌國際化確保臺灣的運輸安全主委你對這兩項期許你是否有把握做到"},{"start":13430.187,"end":13449.696,"text":"沒有錯,當時的副總統,他當時確實有這樣提,他的意思是說各主管機關都要有一個評鑑機制,確實是沒有錯。據我們所了解目前國內機關的評鑑機制是有的,譬如說衛福部他有對醫療機構有評鑑,"},{"start":13452.737,"end":13471.126,"text":"那民航局對航空公司的安全服務也有一些評鑑那公路局也對遊覽車客運公司他有一些服務譬如安全評鑑等等那相關機關譬如說空勤總隊的評鑑作為未來如果有需要因為他是屬於內政部那我們會協助他來辦因為他有主管機關下一頁"},{"start":13473.828,"end":13494.447,"text":"這個過去我在民間在競選基金會服務的時候就一直不斷地強調國內的幼童專用車的安全上是有疑慮的也希望能夠持續有作為那目前上提供的一些相關的服務車輛都非常不安全我始終在跟我們的交通部一直在溝通這件事情可是似乎"},{"start":13495.848,"end":13511.424,"text":"目前事實上是沒有比較更積極的作為下一頁的確等到2023年年底的時候彰化又再度的發生幼童專用車事件那這次沒有翻覆可是直接撞進農田造成15人受傷這一次事故當中"},{"start":13513.526,"end":13530.068,"text":"會終於看到用途專業車的問題願意針對這次的案件來做調查我也予以高度的肯定下一頁那我想問主委的是這個案子目前的調查進度到哪裡了方向是什麼他調查項目是什麼"},{"start":13531.201,"end":13554.588,"text":"目前,雖然這個右頭專車不是屬於汽車運輸業那特殊人員死傷的這個限制沒有但是我們有主動來立案調查我們有成立的三個分組車輛分組、操作分組、生還因素的分組那麼對整個車輛安全、駕駛行為、乘客的安全有進行調查這個案子預定是"},{"start":13556.229,"end":13568.307,"text":"這個月的6月要就是這個月底會發布他的會發布嗎因為我現在看到你們4月份明年的5月會完成最終的報告好預定是這樣子是什麼時候明年的5月完成最終報告好"},{"start":13569.304,"end":13587.173,"text":"因為我們看到的確你們交通委員會當中的確提到這個預計明年的5月可是我要在這邊提醒的是剛剛問的主委說我也提醒要化主動化被動為主動所以也希望你們化被動可不可以調查的方向跟項目"},{"start":13588.473,"end":13607.341,"text":"的這個範圍的項目不是僅限於這個碰撞事件的本身是不是可以擴大相關法令的檢討還有車輛規格本身跟前端檢驗測試的問題下一頁所以我就來跟你講說到底有多不安全幼童專用車現在目前呢德力卡呢事實上"},{"start":13608.815,"end":13632.068,"text":"當初在20192019年後改款他大肆的做文章說他到底有多安全可是目前我們幼童專用車都是用中華德力卡那他改裝前沒有安全氣囊沒有任何主動主被動的安全系統動態穩定現在目前還有2000多輛的車在幼兒園使用當中下一頁"},{"start":13633.189,"end":13647.29,"text":"所以沒得選欸因為99.9%都是德利卡車型所以家長沒得選事實上幼兒園也沒得挑沒辦法就是只能用這個因為整體現在能夠提供的就只有這輛車下一頁"},{"start":13649.212,"end":13663.985,"text":"那可是在所謂的策略在上市之前都需要經過測試跟審驗的程序我們目前國家事實上是有所謂的強制跟非強制的這樣的一個"},{"start":13665.908,"end":13666.048,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":13691.738,"end":13717.404,"text":"所以交通部就表示為什麼不做碰撞試驗呢因為座椅的高度如果要回答這樣子的話那就來問是說那就把要求教育部是不是把幼童車廂車全部都改裝為所謂的大顆車的狀態而不是用這小型箱型車的時候又沒有辦法做安全碰撞試然後我們現在就又甚至剩下一款車可是每一天在用著幼兒的時候我們相信家長一定是提心吊膽的"},{"start":13718.243,"end":13742.766,"text":"所以我也不太接受交通部的這樣的答覆了下一頁所以希望德力卡的這個車款能不能符合平等試用範圍也是市場這個趨勢的車型的時候可是沒有接受ACP的平等試驗也就是我剛剛講非強制性的來下一頁這個就是交通主管機關不敢面對的這是我們取得國外這是中華德力卡的那個車型"},{"start":13744.281,"end":13759.793,"text":"他會造成駕駛跟副駕駛呢事實上是保護不足然後產生傷害可是今天所有整車的幼童都要靠司機跟隨車來保護的時候結果這兩個人他就已經不被保護的時候那怎麼有辦法去保護我們的幼童呢"},{"start":13761.815,"end":13782.089,"text":"下一頁最後我期待是不是想問的是次長跟主委我現在提出來的這三點也就是重新檢討我們的車輛審驗的安全規範導入國際認可的碰撞試驗還有呢第二個是是不是有具體的獎勵方案來鼓勵車廠能夠可不可以有更多的車種轉為"},{"start":13784.349,"end":13784.769,"text":"市長及委員可否針對這個能夠做承諾?"},{"start":13800.987,"end":13816.583,"text":"我剛剛報告過我們這個案子有分成車輛分組那車輛分組裡面對又同專用車的車輛安全法規相關我們會進行解釋那至於他這個車輛安全檢測的機組是不是要導入什麼比較科技化的系統裡面這個是不是有交通部來的"},{"start":13819.015,"end":13843.542,"text":"首先很感佩委員對於幼童專用車或是校車上的一個長期的關注剛才特別提到的這些問題都是問題而且也就是剛才委員剛才特別提到要導入國際認可的或國際的法規裡頭其實就是因為車輛的本身是有國際化的所以剛才講到的現行的德力卡是箱型車所以它不做實車碰撞這是限制"},{"start":13844.122,"end":13861.633,"text":"委員提到的這個建議我比較具體的建議可以容許我們回去研究一下然後特別跟委員做一個來告訴委員說我們打算怎麼做我覺得站在兒童交通安全上是可以有一些作為具體怎麼做再來跟委員討教"},{"start":13862.253,"end":13862.973,"text":"謝謝我們林業請委員現在請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":13896.963,"end":13902.615,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我請次長還有公路局好,我們請陳局長還有陳次長"},{"start":13911.069,"end":13932.68,"text":"好的兩位好我想今天大家都非常關心的是基隆的山崩那天我剛好也經過那邊所以大家看到說今天的報告是公路局有非常多的監測的方式跟工具那這個地方長期有做監控或者是有相關的設施在這邊做監控然後這次有做出任何的預警狀況嗎"},{"start":13934.895,"end":13952.402,"text":"我們在這個地方因為它是有邊坡分級的所以在邊坡分級上我們在它有沒有監控儀器在這裡頭是沒有的所以它是屬於C級所以沒有邊坡所以接下去今天它崩了接下去它會用什麼樣的方式來列管"},{"start":13955.234,"end":13983.851,"text":"我簡單一下我們會立即把它提升它的邊坡等級然後做相關的一個巡檢也好或之後就會做相關的監控監控我們會依照我們去檢討的結果必要的時候我們會來加監控的一個設備市長我知道公務局要管全國各地的這個邊坡啦其實很大所以如果沒有監控儀器那你們平常是怎麼監控的像這個地方有沒有被預警"},{"start":13985.106,"end":14004.224,"text":"各位報告邊坡的部分的話基本上就是說我們列管的邊坡就是每一週都會巡查一次那再就是說像比如說巡查就是人力去巡查對人力巡查人力巡查有跟地方政府合作嗎就是我因為這個是屬於我們自己管轄的對你們要自己看對對對地方政府有通報機制給你們的話你們也會去看"},{"start":14005.845,"end":14023.916,"text":"對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":14024.036,"end":14050.348,"text":"我們希望你的監控不單單只是之前發生事情那長期的人力監控其實我們要用更科學的方法第三個可能打通通報的機制如果民眾可以直接反映到公路局公路局可以馬上有一些預警他有一些碎石掉下來的時候就應該做一些算是警示啦或者是你們自己先做一些相關的處理因為這是崩的真的很快速而且滿觸目驚心"},{"start":14051.548,"end":14071.074,"text":"對,所以我覺得監控是一個很以現在的台灣科技不是問題只是你要不要怎麼樣用方式去使用它第二個問題我覺得比較有趣喔這個在發生在基隆最近市長不知道有沒有看到網路上有一位網紅Tony先生他上傳了一支影片"},{"start":14072.054,"end":14097.11,"text":"他說他在基隆的三雕嶺車站他去旅遊結果呢三雕嶺車站沒有任何的行人通道所以他就拍照嘛所以他就走到了一條維修工人行走的唯一的通道那這條通道因為禁止一般行人通行這個鐵道橋上因為這樣所以他違反鐵路法被罰款一萬塊"},{"start":14098.391,"end":14125.552,"text":"那當地的其實這個地方有很多的居民居民平常都是要坐到這個火車站一個車站沒有行人通道讓民眾行走然後讓所有走的人如果被檢舉就會被罰一萬塊然後我們的意思是說我們台鐵是希望所有的人到這個車站之後是要插個翅膀飛過去嗎?次長你知道你有看到這個新聞嗎?"},{"start":14126.432,"end":14150.361,"text":"我有看到而且我們非常重視所以而且這個案子就很好笑你知道鐵道局怎麼回我這鐵道警察送的法單所以他只能開法那鐵道警察說有人檢舉我就要開法但是還是要請台鐵提出因應措施所以一個推一個鐵道局推給鐵道警察鐵道警察推給台鐵請問中華民國政府要推給誰"},{"start":14152.452,"end":14171.838,"text":"是,我想委員的諮詢我們如果不能給人家一個安全合法的通道那你把這個車站給廢了吧你看那些居民在這邊每天在違法你明知道他違法沒有檢舉就沒事有人檢舉就有事重點是有沒有辦法做一條讓人家安全回家的路啊"},{"start":14172.563,"end":14176.547,"text":"所以我們這個問題我們有看到所以我們大概已經徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹徹"},{"start":14193.522,"end":14219.758,"text":"然後還要我們看到網紅的影片才來處理市長如果台灣還有這種關閉民反明明知道然後讓民眾不斷的在違法視而不見的政府單位我覺得你要好好的整頓一下這我們來檢討明知道而且都知道鐵道局也知道鐵路警察也知道舊台鐵不知道然後要網紅出來才知道這很離譜啊"},{"start":14221.178,"end":14237.08,"text":"如果我們的政府是讓人民每天要做違法的事這個不是一個有違的政府該做的事而且這件事情這麼小還要讓它上網路上才會被看見委員的一個指教我們有看到所以我們會立即來做處理"},{"start":14239.404,"end":14251.084,"text":"不要再發聲了也不要讓人家走在這邊說你都要碰到火車被撞死了是你的責任因為你不能走然後你走上去你就是違法是你的問題你們現在只有一個狀況就是你們推責任給人民"},{"start":14251.94,"end":14277.058,"text":"委員我們是不是可以一個月內提供書面資料給委員?不是書面資料,你要告訴我你做什麼?這一個月這些人要怎麼走?這些居民這一個月要怎麼回家?我們會提供我們的相關安全的路、合法的路、延宜的一個說明跟延宜的處置的情形。如果我們要推展觀光,我們是讓人家坐火車坐到那邊之後變違法,沒路可走,叫人家再跳上火車再走回去,那你,那你推展,那你放這個車站要幹嘛?"},{"start":14278.399,"end":14297.136,"text":"好嗎?次長?一個禮拜給我一個完整的報告第二個你多久要完成這件事?可能把相關的措施告訴我好我們一個禮拜先把我們打算怎麼做讓委員知道要做變強要做任何事情我想國軍的工兵隊都可以幫你做到只是你要不要做而已好嗎?謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":14301.018,"end":14309.136,"text":"好,謝謝黃珊珊委員、蘇清淺委員、蘇清淺委員、蘇清淺委員不在。"},{"start":14313.103,"end":14337.885,"text":"好,現在登記執行委員已經已發言完畢做以下決定一、報告及執行完畢二、委員以執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答詢部分請應安會、交通部儘速以書面回覆"},{"start":14339.226,"end":14342.372,"text":"本日議程處理完畢現在上會謝謝大家"},{"start":14359.957,"end":14388.268,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14392.449,"end":14412.193,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14415.71,"end":14417.852,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15990","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15990","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d4f41088fe7fdcd9e14968be1351dde783be8d109af184be41c153010285283125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-06T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T13:13:00+08:00","duration":16980,"影片長度":"04:43:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 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用以下僅就整合本部推動相關業務具體作為及進進方向等進行說明在教育相關的業務部分依應國家語言發展法及國家語言發展法施行細則公布實施本部積極的規劃與執行國家語言課程學習與資源教材資源實質培育與聘任"},{"start":2370.495,"end":2396.681,"text":"中學學習資源等教育相關措施並依行政院11一年7月15日合訂的國家語言整體的一個方案涉及辦理有關國家語言整體教育的事項在具體作為的部分我們分有四個部分第一個部分我們是促進本國語文教育溝通平台跨部會的一個轉型的一個發展那本部已經有成立本國語言的一個教育推動會藉由跨部會的溝通與民間合作的機制"},{"start":2397.802,"end":2417.541,"text":"積極落實國家語言發展法相關的提議．也提供本國語言教育政策研究及推廣的相關諮詢與建議第二個部分完備國家語言教育支援及提供學生多元學習的機會本部在110年3月15日修正發布十二年國民基準教育課程總綱明定國家語言為國小"},{"start":2419.182,"end":2435.25,"text":"國民小學布定課程國中階段式七八年期實施本土語言布定課程七年級劃列五九年級劃列為彈性學習課程高中部份國家語言布定課程兩學分校定課程規劃四學分來提供學生學習那針對少數一個民間出版或是修"},{"start":2436.21,"end":2457.649,"text":"修讀客語文、民東語言、原住民族語文及臺灣手語部分．以完成學習的用書及教師的手冊編撰．並提供各教育階段的師生使用．此外也補助幼兒園辦理閩南語沉浸式教學．融入教幼兒園的計畫．及國民小學沉浸式本土語言教學計畫．"},{"start":2459.15,"end":2487.846,"text":"此外也是針對高國中辦理本土語言及臺灣索語直播共學的推動計畫那到113年已經有累積完成580部的教學影片拍攝另外國家教育研究院也執行了閩南語、客語及原住民族語的15件的一個研究案那同時我們也透過全國大專院校校長會議鼓勵各校開設本土語言的相關課程那也鼓勵我們大專院校將在課程社同活動部分將本土語言的文化"},{"start":2488.526,"end":2503.804,"text":"一併納入。第三個部分是強化國家語言施肢培育及聘任的部分本部已訂定高級中等以下學校及幼兒園米蘭語、客語及原住民族語言施肢培育施肢及聘用辦法自109年開始已經採用多元化的"},{"start":2504.284,"end":2504.404,"text":"主席"},{"start":2521.687,"end":2543.681,"text":"支援工作人員的培訓及協助現職教師取得語言的資格那持續會辦理有關回流真語的研習第4個部分是營造國家語言終身學習的使用環境那我們也持續的營運及充實線上的常用詞典包括我們本土語言的支援網及教育部的語文成果網等相關的學習資源我們未來已經規劃要建置閩南語語音語料庫那我們在112年首次辦理的閩南語語言認證"},{"start":2550.145,"end":2550.285,"text":"總共177384人參與"},{"start":2567.205,"end":2588.873,"text":"再來是我們要響應有關於擴大母語的活動我們也輔助縣市政府推動臺灣母語日的活動那以及串聯221世界母語日的一個活動的再進行那在持續經濟的方面在第一部分我們也強化本國語文推動會跨部會的溝通平台的部分那在這部分我們持續會辦理本國語文推動會及分組議題的會議那積極研討有關國家語言發展的相關議題"},{"start":2593.195,"end":2608.579,"text":"希望能夠完善我們整個本國語言的教育政策推廣跟研究的一個政策方向第二個部分我們會落實提升國家語言課程跟教材的一個品質那因為國家語言列為而不定課程之後依據課程綱要辦理及並優化本土語言課程品質及編輯本土語言教師的師資那並請我們各縣市政府來鼓勵幼兒園有業"},{"start":2617.941,"end":2636.522,"text":"申請推動本土語言融入幼兒園的教保活動課程。在針對小校還有稀有的語別、選修的人數、較少及偏遠的師資需求的部分,持續辦理本土語言,遲不得共學。在第三個部分是遲遲均靜我們師資培育及聘用的制度。本部跟客家委員會已經有會詢"},{"start":2638.724,"end":2643.986,"text":"修正發布《高級中等以下學校及幼兒園課與師資培育資格及聘用辦法》以經濟我們課與師資的一個培育及聘用的制度另外依照我們師資培育及大學及教育實習機構辦理教育實習辦法裡面也會有協助我們實習夫老"},{"start":2660.171,"end":2684.159,"text":"實習輔導學生去進行有關教學實習希望能夠強化教學實習內涵此外我們也會有相關的一些補助的相關措施包括補助學士後教育學問班的一個獎學金等等的相關的一個獎勵措施第4個部分我們會優化終身學習的國家語言的友善環境除了我們會持續的精進我們線上常用的詞典跟本土語言網站的學習資源之外我們現在已經開始要建置閩南語語音"},{"start":2688.9,"end":2691.583,"text":"此外,我們會進行閩南語語言能力的認證考試提供專業檢視機制,強化試題研發逐步完備電腦化的測驗再來,我們會持續補助部署管所能夠營造母語的學習環境與導覽推動公共圖書館母語志工計畫"},{"start":2710.62,"end":2735.943,"text":"感謝委員關注國家語言發展的教育議題本部已積極與文化部、客家委員會、原住民族委員會密切合作設置跨部會的一個諮詢跟溝通平台並落實推動國家語言教育本部將會積極地收集各方意見精進本土語言、學習資源與環境作為我們未來在相關政策的評估跟推動的參考以上報告敬請大院委員持續給予本部的一個支持跟指導謝謝各位"},{"start":2739.79,"end":2752.539,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝嚴副司長的口頭報告那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午"},{"start":2758.824,"end":2778.883,"text":"10點30分委員如有臨時提案也請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員、范雲委員質詢結束後進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先我們就請發言登記第一位紅夢凱委員質詢"},{"start":2787.455,"end":2810.585,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請文化部李部長以及我們教育部教育部監事署長來是不是我叫署嗎?好那我們請彭署長還有那個李部長謝謝委員好部長我先請教一下本時有看到說從6月8號開始我們因應花蓮0403地震我們再加碼1200元的這個文化幣"},{"start":2817.888,"end":2837.699,"text":"那請教這文化幣因為本席看了半天還是覺得是說當然衝為花蓮復興振興這個是美意啊所以現在是民眾可以到就是符合資格的年輕朋友16歲到22歲他可以到6月8號開始可以到花蓮去領取文化幣但有沒有限定要在花蓮使用"},{"start":2839.99,"end":2853.335,"text":"報告委員,的確是要我們現在是只要持有文化幣資格的人到花蓮去在當地裡面才可以領到文化幣可以領,但是沒有限花蓮使用一定要限在花蓮使用有嗎?"},{"start":2853.335,"end":2857.157,"text":"有有有你們上面的規範沒有寫到限花蓮使用阿?"},{"start":2858.223,"end":2887.212,"text":"你們上面的規範是說優惠方式是跟原有的文化幣合併使用所以換言之會讓外界以為是說你只要去領取完之後你才可以全台各縣市使用說清楚所以就是現花蓮使用這個花蓮6月8日加碼的文化幣就是1200元在今年的6月8日一直到年底可以到花蓮領取花蓮使用就是要振興花蓮的文化觀光發展是不是"},{"start":2889.995,"end":2902.869,"text":"來部長這個是好事啦我們一起努力讓各縣市都可以也讓花蓮的鄉親可以感受到我們的相關部會的一個用意啦回過頭來今天主要"},{"start":2904.244,"end":2921.726,"text":"我們的這個國家語言發展法其實從2019年開始通過之後到現在三四年的時間那但是我想部長您這個上任一個月左右你應該也很了解到底文化跟教育兩個衝突的部分"},{"start":2922.327,"end":2941.737,"text":"到底我們國家要怎麼樣來去做一個推廣尤其我們在文化國家語言發展法裡面定義當然很良善本席也認同是說應該要來鼓勵所有的一個語言但目前為止我們所定的國家語言發展法到底國家語言有多少目前我們在"},{"start":2943.397,"end":2964.129,"text":"有7種,廣義的有7種只有7種嗎?大約譬如華語,大家最常講的華語,然後就台灣台語,台灣客家語,台灣原住民語,然後還有平埔族語,還有麻族語,還有俗語,這是我們在法律上面"},{"start":2965.066,"end":2971.57,"text":"大致上把它分類大概是這樣但一般來講大家也講是說其實本土語言規定國小來講有52種"},{"start":2974.025,"end":2993.531,"text":"有米蘭語、閩東語、臺灣手語、客語還有不同的腔調光腔調就可以分6種原住民語還可以不同的族語還可以分到42種更不要講是說如果說國小還在加入新住民語那新住民語還有7種不同的新住民話所以夯巴郎加起來是59種"},{"start":2995.646,"end":3018.532,"text":"那這樣子對於我們的這個不管是國家語文的一個發展來講我們推廣我們有那麼多的資源嗎?因為本時有特別看到我們的主管機關是文化部但主管機關文化部其實只針對臺語、馬祖語跟臺灣手語這三個為你們主責的方向是不是?剛剛您講到說我們在國家發展委員裡面因為本來就有客委會"},{"start":3020.192,"end":3038.9,"text":"原民臺、原委會他們各自負責自己的部分那剩下的部分留給我們的就是臺語還有手語還有麻竹語那至於您剛才講的那麼多的語言在各小學如何實施是不是請教育部來回答因為我們文化部好像沒有問題我先請教文化部現在 教育部"},{"start":3041.801,"end":3066.349,"text":"教育部現在我們的之前國家語言發展法要通過之後大家就講是說這有可能會讓教育現場更加的侵蝕教育資源那還有師資的部分到底有沒有辦法來補給到目前為止我剛剛特別看了一下我們教育部今天的報告寫的也是洋洋灑灑但是最重要的現在的師資的部分"},{"start":3067.896,"end":3072.224,"text":"缺額到底還有多少?沒有出現在裡面,是不是說明一下?"},{"start":3076.353,"end":3096.738,"text":"本土比在國小、國中、兩個年級跟高中以一年級為主將近降的一個需求目前已經培養了兩萬三千六百位師資每一年從第一年可能有一萬三千名左右那時候是福音逐年實施"},{"start":3098.238,"end":3123.284,"text":"實施的最高的年級數的時候會是九個年級我們全臺灣預計需要多少師資以現在的師資是夠的只要在去年是最滿的時候都夠那現在我們已經多培養了五千名當時跟委員們報告你培養的是只拿到資格但是有真的進入到媒合所有學校因為到目前為止本席也看到有媒體報導講是說師資不足啊所以有百"},{"start":3124.164,"end":3140.54,"text":"於百名的學校高中的學校他其實高一沒有開課那即便是到今年也有將近50所以上的學校是高一沒開課然後高二、高三才開課所以他就是不想要排擠那十字等於是一個老師用兩當沒有辦法重複重疊使用嘛"},{"start":3141.797,"end":3141.817,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3164.71,"end":3165.753,"text":"到後來因為有第一年的經驗到一一二"},{"start":3173.55,"end":3201.025,"text":"11、12學年基本上老師的數量已經滿足到今年要為11、13年再準備的時候現在已經有遠超過當時的師資需求數那我確認到目前為止因為現在6月嘛那明年9月的時候新開學的時候不管是國小、國中、高中我們的本土就是我們的國家語言發展的師資都是足夠的"},{"start":3202.045,"end":3220.975,"text":"全台灣各學校在試教的這個過程中一定會有老師那麼我們還服以直播共學這樣的一個制度所以整體而言有看到你這樣的制度但是重點在於是你的各師資除了這個米蘭語以外課語、原名語這些都足夠嗎?對"},{"start":3222.936,"end":3227.219,"text":"現在還是有相關的問題來 南希 抱歉 打擾委員講委員看到垂詢的部分基本上實體實字的部分在局部的像原名語有42個語系這個難免有一些比較細的部分會跟原名會做合作目前我們準備的直播共學的老師也超過800位所以可以在線上在當場的"},{"start":3246.169,"end":3266.937,"text":"實體那一端有老師跟學生一起那麼線上有優秀的族裔老師可以一起來互以教學好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 來 部長我再請教部長就您這樣子看到因為您是新任的文化部長一個國家語言的發展跟培養就你心目中認為它到底是教育工作還是文化工作"},{"start":3268.233,"end":3290.687,"text":"應該兩者都是吧因為我們從小那個戰後出生的孩子在推廣華語的過程中我覺得語言是一個蠻自然的東西然後它本身是越自然越好但是不應該用語言本身來前置所有的那個思想比如說我們推華語不准講台語等等我是經歷過這樣一個過程所以現在國家"},{"start":3293.749,"end":3296.012,"text":"我自己覺得今天走到這個地步是一個在文化上非常的平衡健康的狀態"},{"start":3311.345,"end":3338.448,"text":"我理解跟我也同意說相對來講所有的語言都是一個大家溝通的工具嘛可以溝通是最重要的對不對所以說在目前為止我自己看到的是說我們也不會說是因為獨尊哪一個語言而背棄哪一個語言那另外您剛剛也提到部長您剛剛也提到自然就是說大家使用這個習慣日久習慣成自然所以說這個語言用詞也會來做使用"},{"start":3339.288,"end":3366.64,"text":"對,像譬如說最近黃仁勳他在台下講話的時候你發現他是用英文他夾雜台語他也試著講華語那就是一種語言嘛我覺得語言會隨著不同族群進來之後會修改那當然是一種文化譬如說日本統治台灣的時候台語就會加上那個一些那個等等譬如說台語的這打火機叫Light打其實很多人就講是說它其實就是日文的Light"},{"start":3367.02,"end":3396.28,"text":"對 對不對英文然後日文然後之後再變台語這樣的一個感覺所以語言它涵蓋的真的文化性是非常強大的所以希望我們的小孩子他可以懂多一點語言是蠻好的好那部長我請教不知道有沒有看到之前有一個新聞是有一個小學生小朋友的聯絡簿上面寫說鞋子不換估計是不行的結果老師把估計兩個字畫出來講說不要用中國的用語比較好"},{"start":3397.16,"end":3415.699,"text":"您怎麼看?我不太能想像這個老師這樣批,我不太能想像了,因為在估計,您會使用估計這個用詞嗎?我會啊,因為我覺得就像我剛剛有講到說,我們這一整代人都是從小接受華語教育的,所以我們的用字用語"},{"start":3416.54,"end":3433.291,"text":"就是很自然的會用我們熟悉的,包括我們小時候學文言文嘛,然後我們學什麼,所以我們每一代人的語言都會變啦,我們每一代人的語言都會變。所以部長您自己怎麼看有一些人也網路上有兩派論戰喔,就覺得是說現在"},{"start":3436.058,"end":3455.08,"text":"中國大陸也好或說華人圈也好有一些用詞是兩岸交流之後大家越來越使用譬如說小鮮肉以前其實台灣如果說以真的來講我們台灣是沒有這樣的一個用法可能對岸用比較多但是現在好像大家習以為常甚至媒體報導都直接寫小鮮肉"},{"start":3456.129,"end":3458.831,"text":"我必須強調文化是一個開放的而不是封閉的所以包括你說新住民來台灣"},{"start":3481.064,"end":3481.764,"text":"我剛剛一直強調文化是最自然的事情"},{"start":3508.573,"end":3536.048,"text":"是同意其實本席之前有幸也擔任過地方的文化首長我那時候就一直強調一個概念就是文化就是一群人在一段時間裡面的習慣經過一段時間的熏陶變成是習慣成自然自然變文化而逐漸自然的形成所以說它絕對不是不用說去互相影響或排斥而是怎麼樣能夠融入讓所以一群人大家有一個集體的共識我想這才是文化的真諦跟本意是不是"},{"start":3536.528,"end":3539.329,"text":"應該沒有想要把之前的政府給推翻吧應該沒有吧"},{"start":3563.769,"end":3581.223,"text":"我們一起努力,其實部長我同意您講的文化是家法啦既然是家法,我們就是海納百川包容讓臺灣,其實臺灣最自豪的就是多元文化能夠讓文化更多元、更自由、更民主、更開放我想這是我們臺灣寶貴的地方,我們一起努力好,謝謝部長好,謝謝,謝謝洪孟楷委員部長請回好,我們接下來請陳培余委員"},{"start":3595.08,"end":3602.601,"text":"好,謝謝主席那第一個部分要有請文化部部長還有國教署署長好,請林部長、彭署長"},{"start":3608.114,"end":3636.873,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排這個主題我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心來下一頁賴信德總統在世界母語日他談了三個非常重要的方向三個方向分別是成立國家語言發展中心第二個健全國家語言的教育資源第三個營造多元語言的友善環境但是我不知道部長或者是署長在你們相關的政策推動當中如何去呼應這三個重要的方向我們來看一下第一個來下一頁"},{"start":3639.075,"end":3665.017,"text":"第一個是關於名稱的問題教育部目前我們之前辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常非常重要的事情而且有很大的困難我們說你們在書面的語言上甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面你們都沒有辦法把閩南語這三個字換成臺灣台語或者是臺灣閩南語或者是臺語的相關用法那當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面"},{"start":3666.258,"end":3679.384,"text":"可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難你們的說法是說李島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下"},{"start":3691.869,"end":3699.251,"text":"他剛才說有夠漂亮啦請問部長還有署長我剛才說的是什麼話?他說有夠漂亮我剛才在說什麼話?部長請先回答他講的應該是臺灣台語部長你剛剛在回答洪孟凱委員的時候你講台語你先用臺灣台語OK我可以接受署長有夠漂亮啦我在說什麼話?"},{"start":3728.414,"end":3749.188,"text":"但是在教育部的相關書面文件這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台因為你們的回覆當中下一頁你們的回覆說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年已經調查過了耶那文化部也有相關的建議"},{"start":3749.648,"end":3764.235,"text":"甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂台灣台語這個用法我們來看在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說"},{"start":3768.477,"end":3790.279,"text":"我們相關的口音相關的腔調都是同一個語系其實並沒有太大的差異所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整或者是在我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分沒有辦法快速調非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整你們明明在很多業務活動在很多學校第一線的現場明明很多活動可以現場就調整到底哪裡遇到了問題"},{"start":3792.23,"end":3794.992,"text":"副部長、署長謝謝謝謝委員那有關課綱的部分國教院齁課綱的部分我們不談我可以接受你們現在目前覺得課綱很難即時的調整我上一次的說法是說非課綱的活動業務第一線的所有公文往來還有你們在做所有活動的時候到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情"},{"start":3812.908,"end":3827.698,"text":"當然我們希望可以證明回到課綱但是我覺得那個是短中程長期的工作規劃可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線的活動跟相關業務上為什麼沒有辦法剛剛部長也都說了我在講台語你也講我在講台語主席也講我在講台語大家都講在講台語為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整"},{"start":3835.197,"end":3854.03,"text":"整體在教育的施教的過程中學生學習的過程中其中課綱他所導引出來的教科書相關的學習占滿大部分尤其是高中以下的教育因此在部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程"},{"start":3855.111,"end":3873.896,"text":"除了在學生的學習剛才你也講到例如相關的活動甚至一些非官剛才講的有關的那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些證明或是在統整那剛才委員就可以知道在教育界我們裡面那個課綱他目前在工作過程中他會影響到整個教育內這樣子"},{"start":3880.878,"end":3880.898,"text":"委員請說"},{"start":3903.9,"end":3926.625,"text":"當時在國民政府所謂我們小時候課本學的所謂國民政府破千來台這八個字小時候大家都會背破千來台的時候因為作為統治者的工具他把台灣列為是一個單獨一個省然後日後要反攻大陸我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西然後所以台灣就被定為閩南語這件事情它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法"},{"start":3927.285,"end":3946.337,"text":"在台灣主體性然後這麼多年強調之後但是你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上我們辦公室只是要再一次強調我們在這件事情上我們積極想要跟教育部溝通然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助不管是透過文化部的角色"},{"start":3946.997,"end":3975.636,"text":"加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通或者是在相關業務的推動上到底有哪一些可以調整下一頁這個部分因為我時間有限是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論包含目前共識的部分我剛剛已經說了相關的研究85%而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了教育部如何堅定立場在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整再來修改閩南語的國家語言發展方向之建議書面用語這件事情我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作"},{"start":3977.037,"end":3981.104,"text":"是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育文化委員會所有委員?好的"},{"start":3981.874,"end":4008.644,"text":"好,那這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追喔,署長你知道我們已經追很久了好來,下一個,謝謝關於師資的部分那文化部長請回,謝謝李部長關於師資的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員也說了那我就直接講重點,我們來看下一頁在很多的網路社群上我們看到有老師老師是這樣告訴小孩的說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種喔不然後面會產生配客、排客"},{"start":4009.144,"end":4010.325,"text":"但現場的困境是老師是這樣告訴小孩的"},{"start":4025.916,"end":4045.775,"text":"甚至還有說主要直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的甚至還有一個小學是語文自由班他們甚至告訴學生本土語言的時間你們不用來上課我們不會排課你們回家自學"},{"start":4046.215,"end":4058.99,"text":"但是因為他是語言自由班的小孩每一個都可以通過相關考試署長你不要問我個別是什麼學校我要講的是在學校的現場不管是實質或者是老師的心態或者是排課的教務人員的心態有非常非常大的問題我們來往下看"},{"start":4061.112,"end":4061.252,"text":"但是……"},{"start":4087.952,"end":4103.759,"text":"我想要問一下教育部有沒有機會聯同客委會、原民會還有地方政府各級學校代表把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成讓各地方的排課的老師、校長主任"},{"start":4104.139,"end":4121.332,"text":"他們在需要找人的時候他可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性甚至真的有心讓這些有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師他也知道他透過跑校跑班他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難"},{"start":4123.107,"end":4134.818,"text":"其實現行就有那只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中我們來稍微看一下剛才有三格那三格裡面現行就有但是到底發生了什麼問題對所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講是會後可以到委員辦公室再就一些脈絡跟委員辦公室"},{"start":4140.523,"end":4164.637,"text":"首先回到剛剛那三個,高中的部分如果排課的話,他排直播共學他是要跟直播共學團隊有600多個老師到800個老師足以還有259個直接可以線上之外還可以實體教學的老師所以看起來人數也是有的,語種也是有的,然後媒合機制也是有的可是通常教育部的政策到的地方一定會產生一些問題那這個部分我們就一起來努力好不好"},{"start":4164.997,"end":4179.705,"text":"所以如果人才已經資料庫有了我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論好那這個部分署長請回接下來要請文化部長謝謝文化部轄下有非常多相關的管所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動來看一下下一頁"},{"start":4181.126,"end":4210.226,"text":"目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各管所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些管所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人"},{"start":4210.706,"end":4232.89,"text":"在講台上的人在做活動的人他甚至不會全台語他可能只有部分使用台語不管是老師的部分下一頁或者是助教的部分下一頁或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上一定有很多年輕人或者是甚至跟我年紀差不多的人也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語我想這個困境我們都認同而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境好下一頁那到底我們可以怎麼做我們就問了"},{"start":4239.051,"end":4262.028,"text":"文化部你們在相關的活動補助裡面還有沒有其他的增能的政策協助這些第一線的人因為我們不能去質疑我們也不要去罵第一線的人做錯了我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼下一頁結果你們給我們的回覆裡面我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動你們也補助了很多錢你們很多管所做了很有特色的事情我們都認同而且我們也肯定文化部很努力但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制"},{"start":4265.39,"end":4277.879,"text":"甚至這些有心想要上場的講師或者是做戲劇的人他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好或是自己的客語不夠好自己的原名語不夠好那他們到底可以做什麼文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們"},{"start":4281.989,"end":4298.426,"text":"市長,我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候的確因為失智的來源或是我們的語言信任不夠我們在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們盡量用台語可是沒有比例上的一個要求"},{"start":4298.786,"end":4312.843,"text":"所以在第二年我們下一個年度執行的時候現在會逐步的要求這個台語一定要達到一定的比例可是要怎麼達到這個比例我已經提醒的所以我們會鼓勵我們的同仁或者是這一些應該來的師資課程他們可以去上語言課程"},{"start":4316.407,"end":4340.454,"text":"沒關係,至少跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦不要常常很多立法院或行政院政策搞到第一線的人仁養馬翻我們來看一個案例這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展之後內容都出來之後一、館方會提供所有展覽文字當然是華文由專業的人士翻譯為臺語文並且錄音讓工作人員學習有關的用字跟發音再安排研習課程讓導覽人員閱讀臺文版跟臺語的表達"},{"start":4344.195,"end":4350.279,"text":"提供標準版,讓現場導覽的人﹑至公的人﹑或者是講師有相關的對照參考也就是說case by Case如果我今天有這個展我就加強這些內容的學習透過一個一個的策展透過一個一個的活動累積我的母語使用能力我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點也就是我們不是逼他無止盡的上課不是逼他"},{"start":4369.172,"end":4369.772,"text":"我們接下來請林倩琦委員"},{"start":4407.108,"end":4407.929,"text":"請李部長、李政事、彭署長"},{"start":4425.407,"end":4431.312,"text":"我們負責原住民的原民特教組組長孫組長跟原民會的邱副處長"},{"start":4440.114,"end":4441.495,"text":"首先原住民語言已經是國家語言"},{"start":4460.936,"end":4474.845,"text":"在今天報告裏面原民會在國家語言發展法的推動成效裏面也指出第一條原住民語言是國家語言這是確定的而且這個部分是在國內外重大活動當中會呈現政府公職人員就職宣誓裏面"},{"start":4479.048,"end":4479.088,"text":"進行專題報告"},{"start":4499.104,"end":4521.971,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":4522.451,"end":4534.435,"text":"教育部,你們有這個我不知道怎麼唸,所以不好意思放上去Test of Chinese as a Foreign Language那你們可能叫托克弗勒再麻煩你們跟我說你們到底怎麼唸我們那個年代都考過托弗去美國的人那麼去英國的人就考了ELSE"},{"start":4539.537,"end":4562.328,"text":"那歐洲的語言認證你可能要過這個DELE、DELF等語言認證所以我在這邊跟大家分享一下也就是你既然是國語了那國語的國際化應該是下一個階段我們要推動的重點所以國際化怎麼推動呢本來有這個很直接的那個經驗我在2015年去考了法語的那個DELF"},{"start":4564.73,"end":4577.465,"text":"2016 2016年考DEF A-DE這個就有點像教育部你現在在推的這樣一個華文的系統然後在2018年我去考了西班牙文的DELE A-UNO"},{"start":4578.633,"end":4601.472,"text":"我一直還沒有機會再往下考那我跟教育部這邊這個是法國跟西班牙它的教育部發的全世界通用而且它是很正式的一個政府發的系統那也只有這麼一個你丟掉也就沒有了所以你必須要認真的保存這一份文件所以它這個文件裡面在成績的部分"},{"start":4602.333,"end":4618.802,"text":"下一頁成績的部分呢他告訴你你每個聽說讀寫的程度在哪裡成績在哪裡那我把我的個人資訊先劃掉那另外呢再接下來那認證的這個內容他就告訴你你來自哪裡然後你是誰然後你的相關資訊那你通過了這個認證那在西班牙文是這樣子"},{"start":4623.804,"end":4630.292,"text":"竟然是由文化部來統籌那接下來究竟是要由教育部還是文化部我覺得這個部分可以請你們去研議那這個讓大家都有機會"},{"start":4642.006,"end":4665.657,"text":"文化無國界所以有興趣的不僅不管是臺灣的原住民認證或者是我知道很多朋友都考不同語言的原住民認證他們也考得很有興趣大家都在學這種不同的語言我們也給國外的人士有一個機會但是這個機會當然裡面有很多細節要去處理所以我們有一些待解決的事項"},{"start":4667.017,"end":4689.107,"text":"帶解決的事項就是第一個拼音系統然後我們知道在原住民語我們目前比較能用的叫做羅馬拼音當然有很多的拼音系統那International Phonetic System也是可以用的我本期就是學這種但是羅馬拼音其實是我們的一個文化脈絡那不管我們用什麼樣的系統只要讓大家能夠了解那我想就可以推動"},{"start":4689.927,"end":4710.577,"text":"但是系統的問題連華語都還沒有解決那我不知道那個教育部相信你們應該有個華語的一致性讓有興趣來考的人能夠針對教育部的系統來學習所以他可以得到那一張認證會議後我還是希望你們告訴我你們那幾個字到底怎麼念所以幾個問題我們待解決的一個是拼音系統的問題"},{"start":4711.297,"end":4736.866,"text":"然後再來是原住民族光是在臺灣這個教材教具環境的匱乏那更遑論我們未來要推廣給全國然後推廣到全世界那最後一個是師資待解決我想今天很多人都提到師資那這個我想確實是在語言的推動上很重要的一個問題但是如果我們把這個範圍擴大我相信這個部分也是有機會來做一些補足的所以第一個拼音系統"},{"start":4738.246,"end":4755.761,"text":"我相信現在在社會上還是存在就是這個漢語拼音跟通用拼音那不管大家要怎麼用比如說我到全世界都叫做我叫林倩琦那我那個倩琦就會碰到這個拼音系統的不同那不管誰怎麼認識我那個比如說大陸可能用X我也不知道他用Q就是倩琦這兩個字在"},{"start":4758.923,"end":4761.565,"text":"接下來是不是有誰可以來協助我們一下那下一頁"},{"start":4785.138,"end":4806.855,"text":"這個是羅馬拼音我們先不要管他什麼意思那是不是有人可以不知道是袁明慧還是文化部的次長我們要測試一下還是那個彭書長這無所謂對錯啦無所謂對錯不知道大家這個有哪一位願意還是我們要袁明慧的副處長來跟大家分享一下這應該是阿梅語是是是因為我不是阿梅語"},{"start":4807.295,"end":4817.642,"text":"那羅馬拼音啊?你們應該是用羅馬拼音嗎?中英的部分可能會跟阿美語原來的中英的部分不標準。是是是。按照他我認識的那個拼音符號,他就﹝中英的部分可能會跟阿美語原來的中英的部分不標準。按照他我認識的那個拼音符號,他就﹞"},{"start":4831.037,"end":4850.653,"text":"接下來大概是這樣子的一個概念這個當然是有些問候語跟問話你會不會主語你今天好不好然後你家怎麼樣所以這個系統我們知道是文化拼音那我可以請教你一下LOMI後面那個標點符號標在那邊那個ART後面這個標點符號它的重點在哪裡那個問號問號嗎不是標點符號那個LOMI"},{"start":4859.744,"end":4881.942,"text":"一片再來按他那個應該是指他的喉舌音啦喉舌音嘛應該是喉舌音好那各位我也不想在場有幾個人能夠念出喉舌音那各位這個是羅馬拼音那我們如果知道他是羅馬拼音系統那這個標誌我請會裡面要確認就是我這樣講是待會我要講的那個教師的部分我在這邊先提一下當你們考到這個高級、優級"},{"start":4884.744,"end":4902.106,"text":"就有族語教師反映說每一年的那個標點符號都不一樣欸去年這樣子可以今年這樣子不可以那他們無所適從那我相信你們知道的問題就是我們16種語言47個語系嘛那今天阿美組好了可能是男士阿美當考官結果他說秀姑娘阿美你這個逗點不對"},{"start":4902.907,"end":4908.27,"text":"接下來我們要講就是教具、教材還有環境教材目前應該是9階那我就建議大家可不可以納入多元的教材、歌謠的教材那可以在原民會裡面"},{"start":4926.879,"end":4941.392,"text":"包括語法會還有原文發展的部分一起來做原住民跟歌謠是不可分的如果我們照這樣子念其實很多人可以學個架構但是精神、邏輯、概念、文化學不到"},{"start":4942.493,"end":4956.77,"text":"議員其實是當然把某一些部分系統化了可是卻有一些部分涵蓋不到第二個部分是增加影音的工具那很多族語教室的反應就是他如果要教大家什麼叫檳榔葉他要從他家裡去撿一個掉在地上的檳榔葉然後拿到這個"},{"start":4959.112,"end":4959.492,"text":"最後呢我們講那個"},{"start":4987.882,"end":4994.784,"text":"教學師資年齡上我們知道65歲你主語教師雖然你們大家說現在主語教師已經專職但是呢很麻煩的是主語教師其實65歲以上也就沒辦法再教了那我們知道大部分的語言其實很多其他老師可以傳承的就算現在在教室現場"},{"start":5009.608,"end":5029.385,"text":"我們都常常要齊老來協助那如果你把齊老都排除在外當然他可以做支援教師但是如果今天有人在65歲以上那還有這個能力而且能力是很好的話你難道要把他摒除嗎這個部分可能要討論一下因為我們失智都不足了然後再來族群我們是不是要公平發展比如說像少族500多人"},{"start":5032.667,"end":5056.294,"text":"世界的多元性就不在於多寡所以它500多人現在族語教師的缺乏然後你要叫這500人通通都要來學這個嗎?我看也是很困難那所以少族的人數那這些人他們的族語教師這個要很清楚的檢視那我們等級16族42個體系那我們什麼時候可以有比較公平的優質"},{"start":5060.16,"end":5080.119,"text":"我剛才講那個最優那個等級的老師那這個是不是請各部會能夠來研議一下那最後是語言的分配正義最重要是我們也是要拯救兵為的語言那我以前就碰到那個有人跟我說欸我都說台語你還可以跟我說為什麼我叫做某一某族這樣子"},{"start":5080.84,"end":5106.094,"text":"他可能語言都不見了可能只剩下記點所以我們鼓勵大家來參與這樣怎麼講呢我以前學德文的時候我問德國老師說你為什麼會來台灣那時候台灣只有九族他跟我說我來研究賽德克族賽德克族那是哪裡來的然後他說這是在泰雅族裡面某一些雅族當時他的回應是如此外國人比我們更清楚台灣的語言體系所以"},{"start":5106.954,"end":5123.468,"text":"我們推動國際認證的這件事情是不是應該趕快做所以當有一些濒為的語系或者是他只剩下一句話的族群或許有人可以救回來那當然很重要的是我們的主管單位是文化部就如同那個部長所講的文化"},{"start":5124.309,"end":5124.689,"text":"謝謝,感謝各位"},{"start":5153.664,"end":5155.586,"text":"李遠部長、彭婦媛署長、邱文龍副處長"},{"start":5181.319,"end":5196.571,"text":"首先我就教育李部長政府從111年的7月那為期5年的時間投入321億推動國家語言整體的這個發展方案那我們希望能夠來改善各種的國家語言瀕臨失傳的一個危機"},{"start":5198.032,"end":5212.897,"text":"並推展各國語言的文化歷史及美但經過兩年的推行我想在實務上遇到了一些問題非常值得文化部、教育部以及原民族這邊我們大家共同來討論看到問題解決問題根據國家語言發展報告當中指出"},{"start":5219.179,"end":5224.882,"text":"原住民語16族42語列平埔族國語臺灣閩南語客語還有閩東語臺灣首語等等我們有這麼多種國家語言的範疇跟種類在裡面但是為什麼現在我們舉辦民眾認證考試只有客語閩南語跟原住民語那其他的部分我們都沒有打算這麼做部長可以回答嗎"},{"start":5247.656,"end":5272.853,"text":"我真的不太懂沒關係不好意思在那個認證的部分剛剛委員講的目前就是客語、原住民語跟台語那至於其他的語言的認證因為我們還在跟像包括手語或者是盲主語在認證的部分他們團體認為還沒有辦法制定一個所謂認證的標準可是並不是不做還在研議中"},{"start":5273.393,"end":5294.081,"text":"好,那我希望這個演繹我們要有一點進度不能因為現在沒有做我們就一直放在那邊用演繹去取代了我們不做好不好那我想這個部長還有這個彭署長我想我們從這個閩南語認證考試的制度的部分我們來觀察一下我們的本土語言的課程其實在這個可能那個彭署長"},{"start":5294.841,"end":5314.776,"text":"就是在111年我們納入了這個布定課程我們看一下時間所以呢這個110年跟111年我們看到認證考試的報告我們看一下這個倒考率還有通過認證人數來做比較可以很明顯看到有受過布定課程教育影響的那大概是在7歲到18歲的這個學生族群"},{"start":5317.478,"end":5339.508,"text":"但是他參與認證的人數、到考、通過其實這兩年來都是不升反降這個數據在這裡那這個到考的這個下降的人數報考的人數跟通過的人數這個數據在上面我不再贅述我們可以看一下好那你說我這是110年到111年那據本席了解112年我們有做一些認證制度上面的一個調整"},{"start":5340.789,"end":5365.694,"text":"不過今天我雖然沒有把它這個表列出來但是我們看到我們在112年的認證的地方本期看到的數據上是這樣我們雖然把它分成了就是兩次來進行報告人數的大大的提升但是在112年跟前面兩年來比較那不管是我們的報考率我們的通過率其實逐年還是在下降沒有提升這是第一個那第二個我們發現"},{"start":5367.154,"end":5390.822,"text":"反而是有參與布定課程本土語言這一群學生們那他對於這個認證上面這些數據那都要比沒有參加過布定課程相關教育的這個30歲到60歲的族群來講其實低非常的多那這個數據上面我也請部長這邊可以稍微看一下那特別是我想提一下我們看到在這個110年我剛剛提到的"},{"start":5394.483,"end":5416.65,"text":"三十歲到六十歲的報名人數通過人數都比七到十八歲來多那通過人數在一百一十一年一百一十年是一千三百八十二人但是一百一十一年這個差距擴大到兩千兩百七十六人所以我們看到當我們把這個本土語言納入課程之後那並沒有在這個這個族群裡頭去做增加這是什麼原因啊 署長"},{"start":5420.779,"end":5420.919,"text":"請陳班堪說明"},{"start":5452.6,"end":5469.551,"text":"我們講結論大家努力其實我都有看到也予以肯定但我們要用結果論來推我們在努力的方向上有沒有需要調整跟加強所以在112年我們有調整那個制度但是我們看到整個報考的人數是有往上尤其剛剛說的布定版課程的這些族群7到18歲"},{"start":5471.172,"end":5490.027,"text":"可是他報名14711個人最後通過只有5148人那我們的通過率跟到考率看起來也大概不到五成那但是我們沒有受過不定教育課程的這個族群30到60那反而我們報考率到考率以及通過率都可以高達八成多"},{"start":5491.048,"end":5513.326,"text":"我想這個數據我們要去看一看我們既然本土語言課程納入了這個不定的課程裡面去了孩子們都有去學習了何以這個成效拉不起來我覺得要去思考這件事我希望會後教育部這邊誰負責的給我一個報告那這個報告同時也是我們大家可以去研討以後怎麼去做改進那從這個數據上來本期要講的是什麼我想跟李部長一起"},{"start":5514.026,"end":5528.988,"text":"就是說我們雖然把這個本土語言課程納入了這個不定課程範圍內可是沒有提升原因是什麼其實本席認為語言這種東西環境很重要環境會非常重要那我想其實像本席我自己是這個在眷村長大"},{"start":5530.429,"end":5546.124,"text":"雖然我的爸爸江西過來的老兵我媽媽是雲林人我們眷村裡面大部分都是爸爸外省人媽媽各省人台南、彰化雲都有但是那個時代背景我們都不太講台語我記得我還沒有出社會之前台語我一個字都聽不懂"},{"start":5546.684,"end":5562.121,"text":"因為我覺得我也用不到,然後我從小生產環境也沒有,後來呢是開始我開始就是接觸這個選舉以後啊我記得我還鬧過一個笑話,那時候我去卸票,我跟他們講說,謝謝謝謝,這次選舉的時候,你們有幫我倒幾次,然後他們就一直看著我選舉,我沒有選舉,我選人啊,我知道不是選舉,所以部長是選誰?"},{"start":5572.467,"end":5593.327,"text":"對嘛,你要跟我講,對不對?那再來我就跟他講說,謝謝謝謝,你們都是我的政客什麼政客啊?不是,他說是什麼客?條仔客所以台語會有發現,其實這個台語喔,真的這個文化其實非常美,語言也非常美,但是過去我沒有那個環境所以今天我舉這樣的例子就是說,我們做了很多努力,但是部長"},{"start":5594.028,"end":5604.82,"text":"我想這個跟文化有很大的關係我們要怎麼去營造這個環境讓不管是台語、閩南語也好或者是很多的這個我們要保護的國家語言的種類怎麼樣這個環境部長有想法嗎?"},{"start":5606.474,"end":5623.143,"text":"主席委員你說的很對喔我如果站在我的孫子跟孫女的學校接他的時候已經很多人總算是跟父母親講英文了講英語我真的嚇一跳因為現在的父母親更年輕的一代他讓孩子完全進入"},{"start":5624.524,"end":5624.925,"text":"講英語的狀態"},{"start":5643.399,"end":5649.007,"text":"我想這個部長我想這個文化部對於國家語言發展喔112年編列了17.25億113年編列了17.19億喔那但是我們看到執行的狀況很差啊用不完啊錢好像給太多了喔"},{"start":5659.74,"end":5680.84,"text":" 112年,這個也還一成多沒有用完。113年呢,到現在為止用也不到四分之一。時間過了四分之一,然後我們的預算用不了那麼多。我想我們現在預算冰了,是不是應該要好好的使用,讓它發揮到最大的效益。那這點請部長回頭的時候去看一下這個預算執行發生什麼樣的問題。那接下來我想我請教一下邱文龍副處長。"},{"start":5681.841,"end":5700.952,"text":"我們現在除了閩南語認證少之外原住民的認證同樣有這個問題就是說這個參與人數、通過人數、報考人數其實都是逐年在下降的那我想我們現在在推行這個原住民語的認證但是是不是失智不足還是環境有問題為什麼越推人越少"},{"start":5701.912,"end":5720.948,"text":"根據原住民語言我們看起來42個語列文化部2023自己的報告指出聯合國科文組織說臺灣有5種語言被評為極度危險塞夏語、盧凱語是嚴重危險另外有9種語言是脆弱等級這一再顯示原住民有許多語言可能會瀕臨四川這個問題非常嚴重副總長怎麼看"},{"start":5726.077,"end":5726.298,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":5746.158,"end":5760.071,"text":"好,這一點我想這樣,我把問題點出來,請副主長回去我們仔細研究一下好不好那最後因為還有一題需要一點時間就是我想也請教一下,我想教育部啊從111學年,就是我剛剛提到我們實施本土語課程嘛"},{"start":5761.552,"end":5783.184,"text":"但是我們發現師資不足這件事情大家都發現很嚴重在111學年度不管是在職培育學士後教育學分班還有第二專長學分班我們看到實際招收的學生數都低於核定數那這個問題其實蠻嚴重的而且本席把他的這個師資列了一下我們除了閩南語大概有14993位老師跟教職人員剋予5305位"},{"start":5789.367,"end":5806.435,"text":"原住民語只有2075位臺灣俗語更只有1233民東語只有69位所以師資上今天我聽署長講說其實算夠的但我們看到是不是都集中在這個閩南語跟客語的部分其實客語也不算夠所以師資上面我們應該怎麼樣讓它都能夠足夠"},{"start":5809.656,"end":5809.936,"text":"怎麼補救這個部分,署長能不能說明一下?"},{"start":5832.059,"end":5847.453,"text":"首先跟委員報告一下,十字構我們是全縣、全縣市、各縣市每個學校都去盤點所以我們這個不是看總數而已,也看各地、各校第一個,第二個,剛才直播共學的效果我們會分兩個面向來講第一個,直播共學它要撮合媒合的那個老師這邊的數量跟相關的教材"},{"start":5854.5,"end":5854.62,"text":"好,這我們會處理"},{"start":5876.857,"end":5893.699,"text":"我們繼續加強多面向啦那最後我想再給我一分鐘的時間喔因為這個問題啊是我們這個李部長的問題也是很多爸爸媽媽阿公阿嬤的問題喔那也就是說我們現在孩子其實算幸福嗎也幸福算辛苦嗎也辛苦喔"},{"start":5894.119,"end":5913.1,"text":"如果我們要在國語還有其他的相關語言包括我們剛剛說的很多的本土語言然後還有我們現在英語政策也要上路了那現在已經不是雙語了孩子們要學習多語那剛才也有提到其實雙語政策的上路會不會排擠我們的本土語言這是第一個問題第二個"},{"start":5914.782,"end":5931.145,"text":"我們看到教育部編列的預算當中111年到113年本土語言投入46.8億但雙語政策我們已經總共投入了110億所以光預算投入是相當不均等的那怎麼樣做才不會產生剛剛李遠部長跟他孫子的狀況"},{"start":5933.62,"end":5957.78,"text":"剛剛第一點在課程上大家都有自己的時數所以我們特別有排了必修的本土的那個時數所以時數上他是被保障的第二個他投入的這個資源委員上次也跟你們報告雙語那邊會多了一點是各地方需要有外語這樣的一個資源那外語實質這樣的一個資源他們佔了滿大的一個成分但事實上就"},{"start":5958.601,"end":5983.695,"text":"投資的面向從課程教學教師跟相關的教材相關的因應上這兩個語言都非常受到行政院還有總統高度的這種重視謝謝好我最後講我希望在我們本土語言上尤其真的我們的這個每種語言都非常的美都有它深厚的文化歷史背景怎麼樣去均衡不要被這個雙語政策上路之後產生競合的關係甚至消滅了本土語言"},{"start":5984.235,"end":5984.936,"text":"接下來我們請柯智恩召委"},{"start":6008.32,"end":6033.748,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的李遠部長跟我們的彭署長,謝謝好,有請李部長、彭署長兩位好,那個部長你說你是自己是外省的第二代的客家人你都在很短的時間當中被迫去學會臺語因為老師都用臺語教書嘛,沒錯吧而且你還說你常聽文夏的臺語歌聽不懂也會自己編歌詞所以表示你的台語不錯吧"},{"start":6034.948,"end":6042.232,"text":"但是你的客語可以說嗎?客語不太行,其實我剛才特別提到語言就是這樣子我小時候跟我的阿嬤是要講客語的,不像我萬光光的因為後來我們到學要講國語,後來我的環境是老是用臺語講課我必須學臺語,所以我剛才一直講語言是一個我瞭解我瞭解,部長我跟你說我到7月以前我又不能講國語因為整課,很多整課的大家都講台語,我到7月以前"},{"start":6063.223,"end":6063.903,"text":"來 部長 你要看滿遠啦"},{"start":6092.555,"end":6095.338,"text":"高中的閩南語課本,看見沒有?看見沒有?這是我們隔天的閩南語課本,看見沒有?"},{"start":6112.555,"end":6121.7,"text":"請二位議員登記現在他們已經煮好一大鍋的菜包括九天的什麼?九天的什麼?煎蛋啦!我煮香腸的吃不完現在又怎麼樣?烏鷺每道菜都好吃他們這麼高興叫我炸兩包兩包怎麼樣?快點倒三天"},{"start":6142.386,"end":6142.546,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6170.452,"end":6172.673,"text":"這就是我們國中的閩南語。署長、部長,你說這樣小孩這樣可不可以學黑?這樣臺語,寫在下面。這下面一個,這我就不可以讀了。這就是貝卡、這是貝比、這是很多人認同的。它下面還有註解,我們往下看。各位我們來看一下註解。好,我們來看下面就好,勾結。部長撕奶,他的註解的撕奶是什麼?"},{"start":6200.319,"end":6200.639,"text":"這個就是我們學臺語的方法"},{"start":6211.368,"end":6215.471,"text":"蘇長跟部長,如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法,你說我們小孩怎麼會學呢?所以每個難怪會認為,如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的在那個範圍裡面,難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程,就不太去好好去上。我完全贊同,我們往下看,這是完全告訴大家的。"},{"start":6231.582,"end":6245.972,"text":"我完全贊同我們現在目前為止要把語言學好而且要讓一些這個語言快要消失要去振興我都很支持但是你們用的方法花費了321億包括這個層面來說我們到底得到的效果是如何我覺得這是我們今天要討論的外媒林委員他常常在選舉的時候他都在說台語他人的國家語什麼真的是偶細沙啦"},{"start":6255.098,"end":6262.023,"text":"這是成效很不好的緣故嘛就表示你有這個錢但是你沒花在包口上面我們一一來審視來我們往下所以呢你看你的閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年每一次的認證考試我說實在的兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多"},{"start":6274.382,"end":6278.023,"text":"委員 認證的部分我先請部裡的主政單位說明一下待會我把剛剛你講的那個教材我跟您補充一下"},{"start":6303.729,"end":6323.159,"text":"很快,我們還有其他的跟委員報告,因為其實基本上辦理有關米蘭語語言認證基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加一個語言的一個檢視的一個我同意啊,我就告訴你檢視的基礎來說的話通常阿公阿嬤跨八點檔連續劇,可憐可咖赫啦像很多的我們台灣為什麼像韓語這麼流行"},{"start":6324.54,"end":6328.181,"text":"李遠部長你可能要知道為什麼這麼多現在年輕人去學韓語因為他們對於韓國的流行文化他們K-pop他們太喜歡他們就非常的很有動機性的去學習你如果每一次你要推廣這些東西然後訴諸於剛剛不要說那麼多原住語言這是把錢沒有花在包裹上這是我們要去審思的好不好那我只是說你做這些認證讓孩子是否有沒有辦法那這個東西就是在109年是文化部所辦理"},{"start":6350.589,"end":6354.25,"text":"就算以我來說我跟我父母親交談的比例可能我講台語可能有50%我看一般的時間好像爸爸媽媽講台語我好像這樣講話可能是40%我用台語跟別人講我好像孩子講話可能只有21.5%所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的這就是"},{"start":6369.136,"end":6375.679,"text":"文化部當初所做出來那你更不要做看其他原民會的代表到這個地方不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高跟你的配偶可能就會降低再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候他的比率流失的比率就會更大"},{"start":6387.905,"end":6387.925,"text":"給我10秒"},{"start":6409.173,"end":6435.408,"text":"語言的學習它不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習所以它是累積的因此它在小一開始一直到國中有兩年等等等等它是累積的這種內容這種教材第二教材的內容融獲我們可以再持續的精進第三它裡面的學習從拼音開始學它的內容的安排盡量是以比較生活的這件事如果有人檢視那個內容我們可以再去"},{"start":6435.848,"end":6447.151,"text":"你的解釋、你的語言你光是用這樣的語言就增加我非常多的認知、負荷、洗料你洗料我光是要知道那個say那個字我都不知道他是在說什麼我還要在國語完之後你還不如給我翻成這個部分我還可以看到這個文字我可以直接翻成台語所以你與其要補助你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦我說說實在的阿公阿嬤開始要教孩子講台語最大的來源啦你同意吧"},{"start":6462.475,"end":6470.002,"text":"所以這個行政院的這個計畫不是只有教育領域而已是整個社會包括像這個廣播甚至相關節目都一起來努力但是這個才是一個教育部最需要的好不好改一下你還羅馬拼音層那個簡直是無字天書我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分接下來我還要問嘛"},{"start":6485.416,"end":6492.299,"text":"更令人擔心這應該是回到我們的李遠部長這最能擔心的還是我們的原住民還有客語然後呢部長你今天說把臺語變成主流我也同意啊在我們高雄、屏東、臺南臺語總是主流啊但是其他地方怎麼辦還有你剛剛也是把馬祖語變成我家鄉很多金門人他說我金門的金門語是怎麼看不是我國家語言對吧所以你說這個對其他的語言這樣是有點公平嗎部長"},{"start":6514.198,"end":6537.316,"text":"其實台語變主流我好像沒有說吧我沒有說這個話在台灣用台語的人口真的比較多當然是比較多啦我只是強調我們講了這麼多你只要把國家語言擺出來每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠但是我覺得最重要的部分是就像部長也同意嘛動機是一個問題嘛"},{"start":6538.277,"end":6540.399,"text":"當每個人都在提到我們要拯救他們的時候我們現在所做的很多的方法"},{"start":6554.935,"end":6555.075,"text":"獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":6580.808,"end":6585.17,"text":"已經不足了而且你108課綱是108一月公布但是呢你把國家語言列為不定課程是課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的所以你會造成很多人在這個課程的發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來會很多的授課族還有包括很多的整個課程是打亂掉的不是嗎"},{"start":6603.268,"end":6605.189,"text":"但是署長你的空間很顯然跟第一線的老師的認知是完全是有一些落差的"},{"start":6630.004,"end":6658.374,"text":"這就是第一線老師所反映你不應該在完之後因為配合的一個政策之後然後又給我更好看這款欸更好看這款真的不知道要說什麼話欸所以說我覺得是如果是以這樣的部分裡面既定的部分的程序我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的一個想法用什麼樣的特別的方法而不是一個政策出來當你覺得有點至愛難行的時候你應該用各多的彈性的方法而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次然後又給我們這樣的一個課本"},{"start":6659.574,"end":6669.568,"text":"我覺得不管對學生我們同意要把這些大家都要談自己的母語可是用這個方法來學習母語我現在告訴你即使一年五年花了300多億目前為止這個成效還是有待討論的你同意吧"},{"start":6674.28,"end":6693.031,"text":"這個還是要持續精進不管就課程、私自教材甚至整體活化它的像金潤式的學習或是社會的支持這個我們一起努力還有最後我要請求部長就是對於你五年花了三百四十幾億各族群當中你花的錢的細項到底放在哪裡包括是認證還有包括你的一個細項請在一個月之內給我每一個經費的評分的一個部分我要充分了解"},{"start":6702.737,"end":6708.762,"text":"謝謝主席,有請文化部李遠部長以及交流司紀東洋代理司長"},{"start":6730.578,"end":6746.18,"text":"好有請部長跟司長部長早安我已經說過你是我的偶像我就不再說了今天這個主題國家語言發展法很重要那我也先稍微說一下AI會是我們非常重要的"},{"start":6747.421,"end":6751.586,"text":"5月22日質詢時曾向您反映我們政府機關內部好像有這個超人特工隊所以我們今天的主題就是超人特工隊2"},{"start":6765.544,"end":6769.626,"text":"臺灣管的阿龍已經被證實當然我們也覺得有負責是不錯但是希望這件事情不要再發生但是我們還有另外一件事情另外一個超人事件其實目前還想要瞭解一下後續的處理情形"},{"start":6788.135,"end":6813.533,"text":"就是這個巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺一次抄襲了Apple Emoji那上一次質詢的時候我們就要求文化部要針對這個Emoji太過於類似蘋果的這個所謂表情符號法律授權的問題要在一週內以書面回覆現在一週的時間已經過去請教一下部長巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺Emoji是否已向Apple的法律部門請求授權"},{"start":6821.153,"end":6827.965,"text":"暫時委員有提出質疑之後雖然我們的設計師不認為他那個算抄襲但是為了"},{"start":6829.369,"end":6858.007,"text":"為了這個問題他重新設計了而沒有另外收設計費新的那個設計圖案我想會有提供給這個委員看完全不像了我們這裡得到的回應說本案設計是全新繪製不需要授權然後也再請教部長文化部回應本案為全新繪製就是說他只是說這個是我自己畫的我沒有抄襲如果你覺得很奇怪的話我就重畫一個這個真的我覺得這種方式我們還是要來了解一下"},{"start":6858.928,"end":6885.576,"text":"他說這個圖樣是全新繪製因為我們記者會已經開了我們已經公布這個設計了如果我們以後所有的設計師都畫完開完記者會大家說不滿意那我們重畫收回我覺得這件事也不是這樣我先確認一下設計師有沒有提出創作過程的證明說他是創新他是全新繪製或者請公正的第三方對本案進行抄襲鑑定有沒有"},{"start":6892.229,"end":6906.139,"text":"我想上一次質詢的時候部長就有說阿龍事件不要再發生因為不要去單方面的片面相信彩信廠商的說辭但這一次我們好像又來相信廠商了那我們再來看一下"},{"start":6906.94,"end":6922.018,"text":"文化部對於設計理念的說明說文化部表示設計理念在世界通用的表情符號語言導入臺灣的W串聯在一起創意的核心是開創運用表情符號的新詮釋而非創作表情符號我幫您翻譯一下"},{"start":6922.879,"end":6938.668,"text":"文化部的意思是這個設計案的創意不在於畫表情符號而在於運用表情符號上一次質詢您的時候您有一個回答說如果可以你會自己畫一隻貓一隻狗我基本上是這個眼淚已經泛在眼眶都快要掉下來真的是覺得非常感動"},{"start":6939.568,"end":6967.54,"text":"但是我們現在文化部對於這個設計的回答說它是一下又說它的重點在於畫在於運用一下又說設計者自行繪製然後等到自己有點搞不清楚狀況就說反正他會重做一個然後不收錢我要再次強調這一次我提出這個案件的重點是表情符號表情符號的圖樣是有版權的如果想要使用就應該要依法律程序請求授權"},{"start":6968.18,"end":6980.144,"text":"如果有使用就大方承認有用要參考就大方承認有參考對文化部來講尊重原創的精神其實沒有這麼困難結果我們得到文化部的神邏輯一本正經的去講說兩個愛心疊在一起就是原創那我想"},{"start":6986.326,"end":7002.025,"text":"就是說那我兩個賴清德疊在一起就屬於我的原創嗎那這樣正好解決台灣管的問題啊他們根本白道歉啊一隻阿龍是抄襲兩隻阿龍疊在一起就變成原創這可能會在台灣設計界或全世界的設計界投下一顆震撼彈"},{"start":7003.266,"end":7008.189,"text":"要確認喔 這真的不是這樣 我想先確認一下因為這是我們得到的回覆啦當然後續的處理是後續處理 我們待會兒會提到那我們先講這個是一個精神的問題我們文化部要帶頭尊重版權 要有版權意識我們也要有原創的精神跟意識我先確認一下 因為我們今天這樣的對話都會影響臺灣未來的這些設計公司做設計人員原創的參考嘛"},{"start":7030.763,"end":7038.986,"text":"請部長回答一下,兩顆愛心堆疊在一起,如果是學別人畫的,把兩顆學別人畫的愛心疊在一起,符合您所說的原創精神嗎?給您看一下,這是文化部的回應。其實我回答不了,因為我跟不上他這個所謂moji這個東西算不算,你可不可以回答。"},{"start":7051.869,"end":7055.971,"text":"我們上次已經比較過了這個是高度相似於Apple系統的Apple系統的Emoji是有版權的"},{"start":7072.677,"end":7098.875,"text":"大家現在直接拿出iPhone來你弄一個愛心出來就是長這個樣子如果我們單純使用一個愛心的話那當然是各個有各種不同的版本設計師是說他的創意的使用的方法那這個部分我們是接受可是我們也跟他提到說這對於一般社會大眾來講他還是會有一些誤解的地方所以設計師就說那我們就從在同樣的概念下他會重新設計"},{"start":7099.616,"end":7115.503,"text":"好 謝謝您的回答這不是對一般大眾而已蘋果是現在市值全世界排名第二的公司我們是要尊重蘋果認定我們的筆業的手勢筆愛心到底是不是有"},{"start":7116.763,"end":7133.513,"text":"嚴重的參考了它的圖像的設計建成的設計這個回答對臺灣的設計界非常的重要堆疊在一起就可以你剛剛有說啊單獨使用一顆就沒有問題那使用兩顆呢難道就可以排除抄襲的可能就不用確認授權嗎"},{"start":7135.114,"end":7147.404,"text":"最後再來我想問那文化部出資到巴黎設置文化場館希望利用巴黎奧運的機會宣揚臺灣文化我們用這樣子emoji用這個筆頁就代表臺灣文化了嗎?好您有微笑我們就當作理解我們就往下其實這還真的只是一個開場而已我們來看還有一個更嚴重的問題我們其實我這真的不知道要怎麼問下去"},{"start":7165.008,"end":7173.592,"text":"這個案子哪個單位主責的?文化部交流司兩度以書面回覆本案是文化部以臺法文化交流專案這個專案破譯喔補助財團法人臺灣文化基金會再由基金會去辦理這個設計案"},{"start":7181.957,"end":7208.004,"text":"回覆的原文我直接放在頭影片請在座的各位看看財團法人臺灣文化基金會結果我們依據了回覆的結果我們翻遍了所有的預算書跟這個公務單位的這個資料完全查無詞彙最後我們只能懷疑有一個名字相似的由王詩詩次長擔任董事長的財團法人文化臺灣基金會113年度文化部以公務預算補助該基金會3500萬"},{"start":7211.425,"end":7220.258,"text":"文化臺灣,結果你們回復我們是臺灣文化到底文化不是遇到詐騙集團還是誇張到連自己補助哪一個財產法人都搞不清楚請部長回應一下好不好"},{"start":7223.256,"end":7251.456,"text":"據我了解這是等於是我們的文化部另外設的一個基金會就有點像我在台北市的時候我們的那個文化局有另外一個文化基金會是是是 這個基金會我們知道我們想要問的部長不好意思打斷您我們想要問的是明明是文化台灣基金會結果為什麼來韓回復我們都是在講台灣文化基金會到底是文化部忘記了還是害怕想起來"},{"start":7252.136,"end":7271.709,"text":"我們立法委員所知竟然公然回復錯誤的資訊文化部的官員有沒有需要對此負責我們真的是不想要把這種什麼什麼黑箱啦什麼國會調查權去套在這件事情上那這個這是什麼樣你能不能回應一下這有沒有人需要負正式責任呢這個看起來是我們的錯誤啦就是在回話中"},{"start":7272.971,"end":7294.472,"text":"連這個都寫錯公文寫錯我承認這個錯誤還真的不是只是一個單一事件我們發現我們問了說標案金額多少何時何地開標為什麼是這個廠商得標結果越問越令人害怕文化部竟然沒有辦法清楚回答任何一個問題整個開發流程充滿令人毛骨悚然的感受"},{"start":7295.453,"end":7309.365,"text":"根據文化部教育部長的回覆這個主事決案因為採購金額未超過公告金額150萬是由文化臺灣基金會自行尋找兩家廠商比價事情又很剛好兩家廠商一家報價148萬500元另外一家139萬9千元最後價低者得標"},{"start":7315.991,"end":7317.052,"text":"請次長講一下因為平常你講我搞不懂這個"},{"start":7347.238,"end":7351.001,"text":"文化部本身是以身作則的,你們低於150萬的,你們也公開透明。"},{"start":7365.811,"end":7382.603,"text":"但是呢3500萬的文化基金會錢過去了他們就可以低於150萬就不用公開我們也很想知道啊那150萬我可不可以拆成10個拆成20個那通通都不用公開啦先在此請教部長可不可以要求受文化部補助捐助的財團法人必須落實政府資訊公開的責任比照文化部"},{"start":7387.726,"end":7401.081,"text":"將每一筆標案列表公布於網站上您預計多久可以完成有沒有機會我們市長是這個董事長基金會董事長市長也是這個基金會的董事喔您預計多久可以完成這部分的討論我們先按照那個財專法人的規定辦理"},{"start":7406.255,"end":7433.841,"text":"好 謝謝這個希望能夠有回覆主席對不起我再借一個時間因為這個7月多就要去法國巴黎展現在已經6月初了我們還是要趕快來搞清楚不然的話也不希望這個展出不順利都希望順順利利這一次最後關於本案的處置文化部提供說設計師主動表達修改主事節的意願而且還強調不加收任何費用我先講我自己以前在設計學院教書我看到這個案子破譯"},{"start":7434.921,"end":7452.984,"text":"破譯的專案包裝門面只花一百萬百分之一的預算我已經替這個設計師覺得很難過替設計界覺得很難過結果現在出了問題設計師要修改還不加價不給錢或者他還要這樣不知道到底是他怎麼樣就是說不用修改修改不用錢"},{"start":7454.405,"end":7480.331,"text":"對此我要表達 文化部應該作為表率 帶頭表達對創意的尊重如果有民眾表示疑慮 文化部應該要主動釐清整個創作過程只要文化部可以證實此案是原創設計設計師完全不需要修改主視覺設計 我們要挺他但是相反的 假如本案經證實 可能涉及過度參考或抄襲那也絕非設計師主動修改設計就可以解決我們記者會也發了 新聞稿也發了"},{"start":7482.893,"end":7496.231,"text":"國際的發表也發了各種破文也po了事關國際的聲譽我們就要採取補救的措施我們到底要跟廠商續約還是解約也要追究啊或者我建議文化部直接去函跟蘋果公司的法務部門確認這個案子到底要不要經過授權"},{"start":7499.215,"end":7499.495,"text":"我上次跟這個部長有分享過"},{"start":7517.35,"end":7534.441,"text":"我看了這個潮浪群雄小莊的這個漫畫提到明記當年就是非常支持年輕人非常支持原創我們要保護跟扶植創作者這個案子破了一億百分之一來做包裝跟設計結果還出了這麼大的問題我們絕對不能承受半點風險我們只剩下一個多月的時間希望部長在此案的後續處理一定要明快"},{"start":7541.306,"end":7550.874,"text":"才能夠透過巴黎奧運的機會讓全世界看到最好的臺灣好不好再次謝謝部長我們一起為臺灣提升能見度做努力謝謝好謝謝謝謝好謝謝謝謝葛如君委員和部長秦暉我們在郭鈺勤委員質詢完我們休息五分鐘好我們接下來請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":7569.071,"end":7572.432,"text":"主席 請文化部李部長好 有請李部長部長好委員好"},{"start":7589.537,"end":7606.872,"text":"前陣子有許多臺灣藝人到中國表演的時候對於政治局勢做表態當時也引起了軒然大波到現在還是很多民眾在關心那當時文化部這邊有回應說這種事情絕對不會發生在民主自由的臺灣這句話本相予以肯定就是我們文化部這個態度"},{"start":7607.953,"end":7628.014,"text":"但相對來說過去我們都認為說透過文化音樂的交流可以增進中國人民對臺灣的認識進而了解並尊重臺灣的不同但是從這些表態的事件來看事情不是我們想的那個樣子部長你認為我們對於這些不屈服的表態或是他表達守護民主自由的這些業人是不是應該給予鼓勵?"},{"start":7629.814,"end":7654.137,"text":"當然當然因為我覺得今天我願意來當文化部長其實第一個就是希望改善整個臺灣的文化生態包括電影、電視、文學、繪本、戲劇我們投注了比過去更多的經費包括我這兩天還跑去拜會國家發展委員會跟他爭取更多的預算其實就是希望臺灣本身"},{"start":7654.938,"end":7669.914,"text":"的文化人也好藝人也好他可以在這個地方就得到了一個表達表演的機會而且台灣相對於中國他的差別在於各種題材都是非常自由的非常自由的各種題材"},{"start":7671.695,"end":7671.915,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7693.353,"end":7694.975,"text":"我們的國家提供給這些藝人包括文化創作者一個自由的安全的空間讓他們可以自由的去發揮"},{"start":7709.355,"end":7720.32,"text":"但是我們是不是可以再用其他怎樣的方法讓更多的臺灣藝人或是世界各國的藝人願意站在守護民主自由的臺灣這一邊例如說我們是不是開闢節目或者說讓我們的藝人有更多國際的舞台的這些空間呢我們文化部是不是有思考過怎麼樣去做這樣子的規劃"},{"start":7730.565,"end":7748.066,"text":"我們現在有很多預算是用在國際合作希望我們的演員我們的戲劇可以出去然後他們也可以進來投資所以目前我們跟過去最大差別就是我們每一部電影或戲劇都有兩三個國家在合拍"},{"start":7749.942,"end":7763.663,"text":"謝謝部長其實我提到這個議題並不是預設仇中的立場是希望說國跟國之間是需要互相尊重各自安好但是我們面對中國在不管在國際的會議上、賽事上各種不合理的打壓我們還是要有我們自己的志氣謝謝部長"},{"start":7765.605,"end":7789.006,"text":"接下來請教部長媒體有報導說嚴家幹紀念協會 召職8年前以修復故居為由由文資局出面向臺銀無常借用臨近的兩處古蹟來綻放文物並且已經二度的續借之後仍然拒絕簽出那文資局這邊有回應說是陸續都有溝通那針對說古蹟遭到戰用無常戰用這個部分請問目前溝通的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":7791.468,"end":7811.254,"text":"好 這個已經八年了但是距離我們修好還有兩年半然後文資局必須跟臺運繼續借他的那個自由之家然後來擺他的文物文物大概有一兩萬件所以我們現在的角色是第一我們要保護那些文物"},{"start":7811.974,"end":7825.904,"text":"第二,我們要趕快地做資產活化第三,我們要尊重所有的人民可以早日去使用這個地方欣賞這個地方而且回憶歷史對,謝謝部長您的回應這也是我今天質詢這個議題的重要就是說我們什麼時候對我們這個古蹟保存的這個我們該做的努力跟我們什麼時候可以開放給民眾參觀這個事宜這也是攸關民眾的權益那我們還有兩年半剛剛部長您說還有兩年半"},{"start":7841.676,"end":7842.496,"text":"我是不是請文資局的局長來跟你回答因為這個案子已經做了8年了"},{"start":7866.432,"end":7881.13,"text":"報告委員就是關於自由之家跟大同之家我們借來之後還是善盡保護古蹟的責任所以我們裡面的清潔維運也都是照我們的古蹟的標準去做維護那至於說那些標準都是公開招標"},{"start":7882.761,"end":7894.725,"text":"我沒有質疑說它是不是公開招標,我是說既然它標到了這樣的標案,那它裡面維護的狀況如何,進度如何,什麼時候可以開放給民眾參觀,那是不是會後你給我一份書面報告好不好?"},{"start":7899.037,"end":7910.93,"text":"這個部分我要提醒那文資局竟然已經認定是國家的古蹟那應該要很積極的來辦理相關的事宜那不應該由協會長期來佔用希望 希望說文化部跟文資局這邊可以你們這個正視這個問題"},{"start":7914.414,"end":7920.818,"text":"會後要給我報告接下來關於深層式AI的規範我要請教部長本期中去年就一直很關心深層式AI在文化藝術方面它應用所產生相關的問題從深層式AI發展以來已經迅速的在各個領域的都很大方面的在使用之前有歌手使用AI創作想要參加進取獎的爭議之後也發生了美術比賽的參賽者使用AI創作這個情形"},{"start":7943.27,"end":7958.076,"text":"顯見AI使用及需相關指引規範但是從本期上期質詢之後：文化部一直到5月13日才發了一個《文化藝術應用生成式AI規範策略的規劃藝文採購案》所以文化部是現在才開始研議嗎?而且這個履約的期限是到明年114年5月我們還有一年多的時間到那個時候我們才能提出生成式AI的規範嗎?部長"},{"start":7971.481,"end":7972.385,"text":"請次長回答,因為這個問題真的是蠻複雜的"},{"start":7975.958,"end":8004.097,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢因為的確是上次委員有提到我們這個生成式AI我們該如何規範包括他能不能參加我們的金曲獎這些獎項的一個資格的問題那我們在目前為止我們是先拒絕AI生成所的作品來有參展資格這個部分先確認可是未來AI的發展因為我們現在國科會他們也正在擬定所謂的AI發展法發展基本法那我們那天有溝通說應該會"},{"start":8005.638,"end":8010.861,"text":"跟國科會這邊然後還有我們這個委員會一起來會議因為我們這個規範的這個標案我們到114年5月等於還有一年的時間你們才能提出相關的規範那好在提出我們這個相關規範之前我們能不能先有指引因為其實整個AI的應用發展是越來越快速越來越廣"},{"start":8028.43,"end":8049.427,"text":"那專家也指出說現在我們很難用肉眼來辨識藝術作品是不是AI的創作之外呢這部分我們文化部也要所因應啊那未來在相關的關於藝文比賽啊文化部這邊你們要如何協助評審去辨識是不是有AI使用的這個狀況你們如何協助有指引可以先給這些使用者跟評審者有這個依據嗎"},{"start":8052.889,"end":8062.035,"text":"委員的這個交付我們來研究看怎麼樣提早做出指引的部分讓縣市政府或者是各級舉辦活動的時候可以好謝謝次長就是說在我們規範正式的"},{"start":8065.168,"end":8086.236,"text":"公布之前這個指引要先有讓相關的單位可以有一個參考的依據接下來就今天的專報來就叫我們部長根據文化部的國家語言發展報告顯示民眾在小時候第一個會說的語言是臺語但是調查也顯示說目前40歲以下使用臺語的人口聽跟說的能力已經剩不到一半"},{"start":8086.676,"end":8091.218,"text":"其實台語的源流是隨著年紀也快速的增加也已經到明顯的面臨傳承這個危機尤其是現在的孩子因為他們長期比較有機會去接觸到像抖音這樣的短影片不要說台語了其實日常的一些國語的生活用語都已經慢慢被取代"},{"start":8104.403,"end":8127.53,"text":"那部長也說這個抖音裡面有一些短影片其實也是認知作戰的一部分這個代表文化部你們這邊也有發現就是說國語及台語的流通是潛藏著危機那部長我要請教說文化部目前有沒有研議任何措施來強化國語及台語的使用及傳承那有沒有跟教育部這邊來研議說如果防止日常用語漸漸被取代這個現象我請市長回答"},{"start":8134.735,"end":8152.5,"text":"總檢討"},{"start":8152.76,"end":8173.174,"text":"因應網絡社群媒體或影音媒體的能夠更多的製作臺語類的節目讓大家接觸臺語的機會越來越多那在接觸臺語的時候我們當然希望它在內容上使用的就是一個比較正規的傳統的臺語的智慧而不是因為我們現在常常講台語的時候其實是用華語來反映台語不是用本身台語以前的用詞所以這部分我們在補助的項目裡面"},{"start":8182.721,"end":8205.313,"text":"其實像您說其實使用台語環境非常重要除了接觸台語其實要有使用台語的機會就是使用台語的機會那目前我們國家語言發展報告裡面也將台語列為有傳承危機就是有明確的危險的本土語言平常我們在菜市場買菜日常生活中可以發現使用台語的主要的人口其實是真的也是比較年長的民眾"},{"start":8206.454,"end":8226.098,"text":"甚至可以發現說到2歲到3歲從開始學講話到30歲的這些年輕人對台語的使用其實使用度非常的低甚至聽不懂或是聽了都還要一知半解因為我們現在講的話我們可能馬上講了聽到就知道是什麼意思可是聽台語他們還要翻譯一下還要嫩一下就說把他轉譯過來所以說"},{"start":8228.879,"end":8232.061,"text":"這個部分剛剛講到除了說我們有接觸台語我們要有機會去使用它那我們目前台語業務的推動用文化部跟教育部這邊共同來負擔那業務其實分散在兩個部會而且是沒有負責就是專責的負責的單位那其中文化部這邊負責台語相關的部分是人文及出版司"},{"start":8251.751,"end":8264.896,"text":"但是人文及出版司的業務也很繁雜而且主要的業務應該是放在出版所以說有學者指出應該設置一個臺語事務委員會來專門推動臺語相關發展的業務部長您覺得呢?您認同嗎?認同啊,因為我們目前就是朝著先要成立一個像多語言發展的一個文化中心"},{"start":8276.301,"end":8299.131,"text":"所以部長您也認同說是需要一個專責在語言發展的這個單位來專門負責我們雖然把那個任務交給那個出版跟人文師可是我們的經費是下到每一個單位尤其是台語台他佔了我們比例非常高但是委員剛剛講的很有道理我們會成立一個總管這個台語專責的單位對對對"},{"start":8301.111,"end":8312.255,"text":"其實本期這邊是要提醒文化部臺語是列為明確危險的本土語言那對於文化部這邊你們在推廣這些臺語業務應該要針對年輕的族群來制定推廣的方案而且我們每四年有一個國家語言發展報告我們要藉由這個發展報告來審視推廣的成效那所以部長你也認同就是成立臺語事務專責單位"},{"start":8327.441,"end":8346.175,"text":"那也請你們盡快來演繹說這個單位如何來組成那如何來推廣好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝陳秀寶委員部長請回那我們接下來請郭玉琴委員在郭玉琴委員諮詢完我們休息五分鐘有請文化部部長好 有請了李部長"},{"start":8359.87,"end":8373.506,"text":"委員好部長好所以剛剛我有特別聽到這個國家語言研究發展中心這個即將會成立一個等於是一個平台一個統合的一個單位會將來做一個跨部門的一個協調非常重要的一環"},{"start":8375.067,"end":8375.087,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":8405.008,"end":8408.623,"text":"在法定上已經有一個進程我請次長報告一下好嗎?好"},{"start":8410.711,"end":8435.14,"text":"跟委員報告那個語發中心的設置條例我們其實原本108年109年我們已經送了三次到行政院那去年也曾經進到立法院好通過行政院了然後進到立法院因為續期不續審的借期不續審的原因所以我們今年度在5月31號我們已經又重新的函送了行政院那現在行政院審查過後就會再發到我們立法院這邊來那再請我們"},{"start":8439.662,"end":8442.384,"text":"我們也期待,因為文化這種東西尤其是語言,你如果變成是阿姆你說,其實很快就會被記起來"},{"start":8463.742,"end":8463.783,"text":"主席"},{"start":8482.583,"end":8490.009,"text":"我們來看一下其實這個國家語言流失的部分其實還是蠻嚴重的尤其是我們來看一下下一張幾乎都超過了五成超過了五成那包含就是跟爸爸媽媽我剛剛講的跟爸爸媽媽講台語的時間還是跟爸爸媽媽講原住民的語言的時間或者是跟我們自己本身的有時候我們在跟我們的另外一半在講話的時候其實有時候我們也不太會用到台語"},{"start":8512.005,"end":8512.185,"text":"總統早安"},{"start":8537.573,"end":8554.463,"text":"我想我就目前為止我們看到的本土語的教學的部分在學校的第一現場碰到的我所聽到的我所接觸到的甚至接觸了一些陳情的一個部分他們第一線反映給我的一個狀況不管是來自學生還是來自老師"},{"start":8556.443,"end":8575.388,"text":"許多的學校他們要不就是找不到老師要不就是這個政策下來很好可是問題是到最後實行的結果是有一段很大的一個落差尤其是在找不到老師的這個部分我講以高中本土語的師資來源為例我們講的是實體授課的一個部分來講他們當然是以這個在職的教師兼任或者是所謂的教職人員為主"},{"start":8582.89,"end":8605.664,"text":"那這個教職人員他是用所謂的這個中點費外聘的人員那通過一些認證那當然就可以來做這樣教學的一個動作了但是問題是要通過這個認證是不是門檻很高是不是真的比例上能夠通過認證的人其實真的不多那這個部分是不是國教署我記得之前好像有開始要慢慢稍微放寬這個標準目前為止反應如何"},{"start":8611.129,"end":8624.626,"text":"委員報告那去年大概教學支援人員大概有五千餘名那麼今年已經有八千多人所以在人數上是很明確有成長增長了大概超過百分之五十"},{"start":8626.488,"end":8644.457,"text":"然而這裡面他的教學可能還要一點真能讓他真正在面對孩子或是班級教學的時候不是只有靠語言能力還有要靠他教學以及導引學生有興趣的學這一點的真能我們會持續來努力講到了一個重點了學生為什麼要來學就是怎麼樣去誘發他們去學習或者是應該是說去找回他們原本"},{"start":8654.242,"end":8655.983,"text":"這是台語的部分我們在講到所謂的原住民族的這個教學的部分那更是有這樣子的一個問題因為他不是只有認證"},{"start":8678.789,"end":8700.138,"text":"相對的來講好像他們也找不到授課的老師所以後來我知道在去年的時候有說好像只要是身份認證是齊老就可以來做這個教學那這個現狀是真的是這樣嗎但是對於齊老的這個定義到底是什麼他的這個定義教學的這個定義有沒有明確的一個規範"},{"start":8702.9,"end":8724.822,"text":"稍後原民會的副處長也可以一起說明原則上原民的水準他要要求到優級高級跟我們講的中高級不一樣他是要到高級所以相對有人反映就我們有聽過因此我們在直接來幫忙的過程中用兩個比較特別的方法"},{"start":8725.162,"end":8725.382,"text":"我們找到最棒的"},{"start":8743.404,"end":8743.684,"text":"但我還會細節的去了解"},{"start":8770.862,"end":8791.487,"text":"百分之百有沒有到實況上是學生選的都開誠這個我會詳細的再瞭解我可以看一下這個表其實我們大概可以看到目前其實從國小、國中以及高中跟老師的師生比所以其實包含我們舉例來講像是原住民"},{"start":8792.307,"end":8812.02,"text":"的這個語言他其實一個老師一間學校分配不到一個老師那當然我們不是說所有的學校其實都有這方面的一個需求啦只是說那老師可以想見就是具有教學資格的老師他必須要疲於奔命他也有可能要有跑班的一個狀況"},{"start":8813.242,"end":8827.723,"text":"我想這個師資的培育的部分的確是我們接下來最重要的一個部分還有很多的老師跟我反映說如果班上的孩子他的程度落差太大那對他來講其實是教學信心上的責損"},{"start":8829.225,"end":8846.418,"text":"這個其實有很多的老師在反映這個問題是不是有可能可以變成類似像英文我們像英文其實小學就已經開始在跑班了你的程度是A1你的程度是A2你的程度是A3就可以開始分級分級教學對於本土語來講我想這裡應該也可以納入一些考量啦"},{"start":8847.56,"end":8848.261,"text":"委員會一直管制到8月29日開學前"},{"start":8863.183,"end":8863.824,"text":"接下來我要請文化部長不好意思"},{"start":8882.501,"end":8892.37,"text":"好我們就文化部的這個問題我們可能來討論一下因為在上個禮拜大概前幾天其實本席這邊有接到就是在影視產業的這個專業的人員張廷斐他其實是監製他也做過編劇那他得獎無數那特別來到跟本席來做一個陳情"},{"start":8907.043,"end":8920.722,"text":"他也提到了現階段他們所碰到的一些包含勞檢或者勞災的一些問題那這也是我在上一個等於說在一剛開始我對文化部做總諮詢的時候我也有特別提到"},{"start":8922.044,"end":8942.202,"text":"目前我們知道在2022年的這個時間股的一個事件之後其實我們啟動了這個勞檢的一個制度但是問題是我們沒有針對所謂的影視產業定有所謂的專職專條或者是我們的專章的一個規範也就是說比方說他們可能在外面在出外景的時候要"},{"start":8942.982,"end":8959.291,"text":"所謂的要搭音價但是這個所謂的音價它用的是什麼樣的標準它用的是營造的標準來審核但問題是那個是完全不非常不切實際我自己本身在影視產業工作過所以我知道"},{"start":8960.376,"end":8960.796,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8979.648,"end":9005.604,"text":"我覺得這個部分其實是不是真的要有一些完成的一個修訂不然其實你一直用所謂的營造那一套工地那一套的標準套用在真正在出外景的這些所謂的製作公司他們在拍戲的這個劇組他們在勞檢的這個規章的部分其實有點不公平耶這個部分是不是可以說明一下下不好意思佔用一下時間當然因為我自己我自己也是來自這個這個"},{"start":9008.747,"end":9026.294,"text":"我最近還有去現場看他們拍戲您剛剛講的的確是這個問題我想我們文化部馬上做檢討然後研究一下看有什麼方法來保障這個東西另外其實剛剛有特別提到就是我們宣法委員有特別提到其實520總統就職之後"},{"start":9028.235,"end":9033.518,"text":"其實中國對於他的那雙黑手也深入到了所謂的影視工作產業當中了然後那我們的這個陳沐益大哥他其實也特別有來跟我會面的時候他也特別提到他從得獎之後他幫臺灣的影視產業的工作同仁講話之後或者他表明他的態度是支持這片土地的時候他的工作量就非常非常之少所以這個部分我想我們對文化部長有一些期待"},{"start":9055.231,"end":9079.177,"text":"如何能夠幫助成為我們真的認真在這片土地上工作的影視同仁們成為他們最好的後盾支持他們讓他們有更大的空間能夠展現他們的才華這是我們對您的期許好在這邊也謝謝好謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝郭育群委員還部長請回那我們接下來休息五分鐘祝您快省"},{"start":9088.004,"end":9088.044,"text":"多謝觀看。"},{"start":9404.022,"end":9410.205,"text":"好,我們現在繼續開會我們接下來請林俊憲委員質詢時間4分鐘好,謝謝主席本期邀請我們文化部部長李部長有請李部長"},{"start":9422.472,"end":9448.339,"text":"部長您好最近最受矚目的英雄人物就是NVIDIA的執行長黃仁勳有一幕我認為印象非常深刻有一個記者用英文來問黃仁勳問題黃仁勳給他反問回去說你不會說台語嗎這個記者才感盲說會不會所以短短幾句對話我想已經透露出"},{"start":9449.531,"end":9451.412,"text":"因為當時沒有國家的調查我是用一些民間的調查還有"},{"start":9475.791,"end":9480.908,"text":"比照聯合國的標準我來判定台語有出現危機一直到2022年"},{"start":9482.677,"end":9512.157,"text":"現在我們文化部自己發表的國家語言發展報告正式啦定調啦第一次官方來聲明台語有危機啦就台語出現危機而且等級是跟客語甚至馬族語是同樣瀕臨危險的程度啦部長應該知道這個事情啦是這都是三級氣條就是說我們在分級裡面就是確定有危險我覺得台語最大的危機就是說沒有人感覺他有危險"},{"start":9513.718,"end":9526.848,"text":"所以我來跟部長報告一直到2022年的現在政府才正式承認了臺語是處於瀕臨危險的狀態你這都你自己知道的啦人家說一個語言就是聽說讀寫嘛但是那個"},{"start":9531.312,"end":9535.937,"text":"臺語的縮讀寫早就很不樂觀了,連最簡單的聽那40歲以上聽到的臺語的90%,現在存多少?"},{"start":9535.937,"end":9541.324,"text":"存47%了,直接腰斬了,40歲以上聽到的臺語的存沒一半了"},{"start":9548.92,"end":9570.084,"text":"但是我剛才跟你說的就是說我們都過去不知道說台語有什麼危險所以你不會去重視我們知道客家有危險我們也知道原住民語有危險所以政府投注很大的心力和資源以國中語言的文化園區我們來做一個參考部長我給你看一下客家文化園區有24個原住民文化園區有30個"},{"start":9575.045,"end":9594.722,"text":"臺語的文化園區有一個,這個又不是你政府做的,這個是民間公益團體自己做的政府一開始幫他補助後來他就要靠自己了請問部長,我們是你啦,我們文化部對臺語發展的有算法多少你自己給我統計,你自己知道嗎?15億15億喔,那有效果嗎?"},{"start":9599.502,"end":9608.004,"text":"每年遞減,就是使用臺語的人越來越少以前另外一個調查,這是民間音樂學者的調查30年前家庭內輸用台語的超過70%現在家庭內,家裡講台語的只有70%這再下去,台語就沒有了"},{"start":9622.329,"end":9630.471,"text":"我常常說他最大的危機就是沒有人敢給他回應所以政府也沒有有成果他還沒到中時還沒到推動到中時啦不要再說我們現在有一些年輕人所以我在建議部長我們文化部應該要參考我們以前在推動的契議部長是客家人嘛我們推動契議推動原住民的這個"},{"start":9651.604,"end":9653.986,"text":"部長,本席要在這裡跟你爭取,到台南"},{"start":9672.121,"end":9697.626,"text":"聽說部長你喜歡到臺南我常常去我聽說部長你說你大概每兩三個月就到臺南我很多活動是跟臺南一起做那表示部長一定也喜歡臺南的一些文化的氛圍和氣息我們台南就有一個很適合的地方現在包括臺南市議員都在臺南市政府經處的就是中廣在臺南之前有一個天馬電台這以前是所謂對肥廣播的"},{"start":9700.066,"end":9722.474,"text":"現在就沒有會議了,現在台灣有一大群人在你親共還在你會議,所以這個電台現在沒有了但是這個土地很大很好,我們應該要把專業設立文化群組,尤其是台語文化群組這非常適合而且這個土地,它的土地使用分區本地就是創意文化專用區"},{"start":9724.154,"end":9733.522,"text":"市政府也有這樣的一個意願我會請台南市政府現在黃偉哲市長的團隊來跟我們文化部請出也拜到部長來聚集這樣好不好部長其實我們已經準備去看了這件事情我已經知道了就是要到天馬電台來看其實我老台南的朋友你如果來看我吃完我帶你去吃肉燒飯好不好我們已經準備去看了帶你去吃牛肉湯好"},{"start":9750.235,"end":9755.298,"text":"其實我經常吃啦!我經常吃啦!其實跟委員講我以前在台視做節目部經理的時候我會八點檔從國語改成台語而且我會把台語改得比較優美"},{"start":9769.426,"end":9769.926,"text":"謝謝林俊憲委員部長請回"},{"start":9798.168,"end":9800.25,"text":"好,我們接下來請張祺凱委員有請李部長部長今天講台語我們會痛"},{"start":9821.706,"end":9825.772,"text":"我們今天來替我們的藝人說一些話我們現在藝人變兩岸的夾心餅乾了變兩岸的夾心餅乾了其實我們一開始一定要對中國喊話叫中國大陸"},{"start":9837.458,"end":9858.596,"text":"不要再逼著我們臺灣的藝人要政治表忠這對兩岸是不好的可是相對我們現在看到臺灣民眾有些看起來是很憤怒東京的人包容也很多這種社會氣氛感覺不大好嘛所以你是文化界的大佬不是要保證而已這事情你要公開喊話怎麼讓我們的藝人不要變成夾心餅乾"},{"start":9860.322,"end":9886.43,"text":"其實我很早就第一次就表態就是在中國的臺灣藝人如果他真的打從心裡是傾向愛那邊的話我表示尊重因為我們臺灣掛五星旗都沒有人在管了臺灣就是這點珍貴如果他是被逼的話我不想譴責他因為我覺得為了市場為了生存而且裡面還有我的朋友"},{"start":9887.31,"end":9887.33,"text":"獲獎獎項目"},{"start":9904.102,"end":9904.282,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9926.747,"end":9934.391,"text":"小野的呼籲所以要包容跟寬容這其實也是蔡英文總統一直在講的沒有一個人要為你的認同道歉 對不對而且他們確實人在屋簷下有些困難那你不要說中國大陸不應該這樣逼著我們的藝人政治表忠可是相對的"},{"start":9944.136,"end":9945.077,"text":"他其實如果這些人回到台灣來"},{"start":9966.735,"end":9991.301,"text":"我不會對他貼標籤我們照樣很公平的有標案有演戲完全正常但是大家情緒的發言可能是因為對回來都是一樣的對對然後我說那個情緒發言情緒的發言可能也要同情他們因為他覺得我們一再的表達善意得不到善意的回應那個憤怒我也理解"},{"start":9993.789,"end":10012.118,"text":"OK 來我們看一個指標性的人物啦五月天的阿信大家現在最關心的就是阿信阿信我去統計喔15年來為了做公益捐款你像高雄氣爆花蓮大地震大家知道嗎十幾年來他已經捐了2億了台灣有多少人比他更愛國也在這邊說了一下我們說他是我們中國人嘛你看那麼多人出征他"},{"start":10021.738,"end":10029.364,"text":"那時候看得是很不捨﹖我們看一下那個走上腳﹖那個我們看一下那張﹖他說怎麼說呢﹖他神隱的網路七天一遙啊﹖他在那個有一天室內啊﹖他用臉書去發聲﹖他說什麼﹖我現在開放帳你們罵﹖那時候你看到這個你有什麼感覺﹖我開放帳你們罵﹖這下一個好事關兩頁﹖結果臉書被灌爆了﹖很多人還講說以後我不信五月天了啦﹖"},{"start":10048.246,"end":10062.795,"text":"其實我剛才還是要強調我們對人不要貼標籤一個人他有很多面然後他過去這樣現在這樣一個人是很複雜的我們不應該他在做了某件事情之後否定他過去做了所有事情給他貼標籤"},{"start":10077.245,"end":10084.385,"text":"那賴清德總統他說啊他說啊人在屋簷下叛國人給以諒解跟體諒最後我要"},{"start":10085.629,"end":10085.969,"text":"其實台灣已經越來越多的華人"},{"start":10113.337,"end":10123.192,"text":"包括電影工作者從香港來台灣然後我們自己本身的能量也很強我必須創造一個在台灣的文化環境更多的經費"},{"start":10124.619,"end":10124.639,"text":"拜訪議員﹗"},{"start":10147.999,"end":10148.759,"text":"謝謝張其開委員部長請回"},{"start":10175.677,"end":10183.324,"text":"好 我們現在請林一請召委質詢好 謝謝主席 有請李部長有請李部長部長好"},{"start":10190.126,"end":10216.284,"text":"相信自從上一次我們的詢答過後直到最近這幾天你一定還是持續接受到有一些批判的聲音那這些批判的聲音從何而來是因為文化部在面對大是大非表現的似是而非而部長回應中正紀念堂該如何轉型的態度彷彿是對於何謂轉型正義 絲毫沒有概念"},{"start":10217.285,"end":10225.708,"text":"文化部也好像沒有打算要承接任何促轉會移交的工作促轉會在任務總結報告中花了整整一整個章節58頁討論中正紀念堂園區轉型的問題所以我還是要請文化部不能視而不見去年3月2日文化部"},{"start":10238.132,"end":10256.588,"text":"就曾從促轉會的手中來承接這個任務進行專題報告當時文化部就很明確的指出中正紀念堂的整體規劃、配置跟設計就是要將領袖崇拜的具象化到實體空間來並透過空間象徵強化個人威權形象"},{"start":10262.873,"end":10279.743,"text":"因此就是說我們怎麼樣將中正紀念堂從這個威權崇拜的標記轉成彰顯民主價值的這個空間這是文化部的任務目標之一喔那可是好根據促轉會的任務總結報告的第三部的第116頁"},{"start":10281.904,"end":10310.328,"text":"國防部早就在2021年就表示說目前的三軍儀隊是依據當時主管機關教育部的要求才派駐的後來中正紀念堂改立文化部國防部仍舊依據主管機關要求繼續派駐換句話說就這個觀點來看有權有責撤離三軍儀隊的單位是文化部所以部長處長會在總結報告中所說的這個是不是事實?部長"},{"start":10311.281,"end":10337.98,"text":"是完全事實對 好 那在上一次的詢答中部長你說三軍儀隊不應該在政權轉移中被移來移去本席是相當認同你的說法那因為三軍儀隊移出去之後就不該再被移回來那好 那三軍儀隊當然也不該被馬戲團化所以我們看一下歷史文件就知道說在馬英九任期內他是怎麼樣羞辱三軍儀隊的"},{"start":10340.582,"end":10368.838,"text":"請部長看看這兩張公文喔2009年的公文第一張是中正紀念堂管理處發給當時的主管機關教育部第二張是教育部依據中正紀念堂管理處請求的發給國防部中正紀念堂管理處請求的什麼他們當時要求要恢復三軍儀隊理由不是什麼一事不一事是要提振觀光這個協助經濟景氣的恢復"},{"start":10369.718,"end":10372.059,"text":"請問部長 這到底是對歷史的無知還是對國人的欺騙啊?"},{"start":10372.059,"end":10372.079,"text":"部長"},{"start":10382.228,"end":10409.673,"text":"我覺得這個理由我第一次聽到就是用光光的理由把儀隊帶回來我覺得更是羞辱了是因為你就必須承認你是對他敬意所以有儀隊還是要去除威權把他撤掉這兩個答案清清楚楚用光光就表示這個問題很敏感他只能用光光的理由把他又回去我倒覺得未來我希望注意得很明快又很清楚這樣"},{"start":10410.273,"end":10437.176,"text":"好那在上次的詢答中因為部長你說現在的國防部已經不堅持一定要派駐三軍儀隊在中正紀念堂那所以本席是不是可以這樣理解就是說目前的三軍儀隊已經像已經死了半個世紀的這個獨裁者所進行崇拜的這個行為現在已經是文化部的責任"},{"start":10439.066,"end":10464.045,"text":"我可能上一次回答委員那時候講了太多很浪漫的歌詞啊什麼什麼事實上我有一句話很重要就是我自己的家族就是我有四個舅舅有三個是白色恐怖的所以最近很多NGO也好他們覺得我好像不認得這件事情他寫了很多信給我一直講其實我必須再講一次我對於中央紀念堂它的威權象徵是完全承認的"},{"start":10465.126,"end":10488.499,"text":"然後我覺得去威權轉型正義我也完全支持的所以國安部如果不堅持的話再來的事情就是要我們跟國安部來溝通這件事情必然是這樣因為我們必須跟國安部溝通甚至於中央紀念館的這個高度是要到行政院甚至於總統的但是我必須"},{"start":10489.893,"end":10490.033,"text":"必須發動溝通"},{"start":10519.633,"end":10519.653,"text":"獲得獎勵"},{"start":10537.663,"end":10557.81,"text":"好 那我們接下來進入今天的主題根據這個國家語言發展法第5條我們中央主責機關就是文化部應該定期召開國家語言發展會議要來研議協調及推展國家語言發展事務那2021年文化部也總共辦理了八線"},{"start":10558.37,"end":10578.609,"text":"總檢討"},{"start":10578.709,"end":10605.669,"text":"你就是說針對臺語的推廣其實我們並不需要像成立客委會或原民會這樣的一個相同層級的所謂臺語事務委員會就是說因為文化部已經有相同量人來處理這個臺語的推廣是這個意思對不對我們現在已經把我們的那個想要設置一個語言中心的條例送到行政院等待立法院所以我們會成立一個"},{"start":10607.443,"end":10628.672,"text":"語言發展中心的意思就是各種語言但是我們因為文化部是負責臺語跟馬祖語跟手語那這個組織要怎麼編我們已經大概有想法好那今天的主題叫自信臺灣深根文化軟實力背後想跟部長討論的就是說我們發揮國際影響力不用捨近求遠"},{"start":10629.932,"end":10629.992,"text":"獲得獎金"},{"start":10646.973,"end":10669.879,"text":"這是一項非常嚴肅的警訊當然這個英文大家都會聽都會講那差在差那個字會量可是英文的文化當然是我們全球人類最習慣最熟悉的文化太陽不過台灣文化就不一樣了因為台灣文化"},{"start":10670.499,"end":10675.746,"text":"全世界也只有台灣人台灣人能夠詮釋到位所以如果台灣文化能夠像黑草一樣湧向世界讓世界認識台灣進而學習台灣文化我覺得這個就是讓台灣在國際舞台上充分展現這個文化軟實力那將來就會有機會獲得豐沛的這個果實"},{"start":10690.923,"end":10708.256,"text":"我們覺得日本就是一個充分發揮文化軟實力的很標竿的國家日本它用它自身的文化以及對它語言的重視這全世界有目共睹日本所開創的IP跟各種文化內容其實這已經不僅僅用潮流可以形容它"},{"start":10709.036,"end":10729.85,"text":"你說像用這個由日語以及日本文化它所灌溉出來的不管是漫畫啦動畫啦電影啦小說或者是電玩的產品全世界共同呼吸的空氣陪伴每個小孩大人的生活的日常所以日本的亮眼的成績我覺得好像是可望而不可及"},{"start":10730.23,"end":10733.653,"text":"但是我覺得不起步當然就永遠追不上那當然還好文化部已經有開始在做一些不管是您剛提到的報告培育台語的那個家庭計畫或強化以示的台語內容或者是用國家語言的這個本土動畫IP的開發等等"},{"start":10749.608,"end":10749.628,"text":"其實﹖"},{"start":10768.749,"end":10798.077,"text":"我自己本身也非常不喜歡把日本動畫配成台語這樣最近我們自己有一部八戒八戒賣得很好它就是有台語版跟多語版多語裡面就是客家語然後三種語言同時出去然後發現的確是各種語言有它自己的樂趣票房也各自有擁有它的觀眾這點我們會從過去未來的電影跟戲劇裡面表達我們的態度這點我可以做到"},{"start":10798.777,"end":10815.055,"text":"好就是說從各個你現在在努力的這幾個面向不我這個台語的這個推廣當然很多的委員都對台語瀕臨這個危險其實都很擔憂所以這個部分真的還請文化部多加強那最後"},{"start":10817.877,"end":10836.506,"text":"我昨天到辦公室有接到一通來電他是一個接受安寧療護的民眾打來的那他想要在有生之年去參加張學友的演唱會可是他也苦於黃牛猖獗所以他也買不到票那他後來其實也是乾冒了這個"},{"start":10838.527,"end":10855.054,"text":"判罪的風險花加倍的金錢買到黃牛票好,文創法的黃牛條款其實已經上路了那對於這個黃牛的掃蕩跟嚇阻我們當然也持續的這個滾動式的檢討中那我想要說的是說無論是演唱會或藝文活動這個黃牛利用粉絲當然的喜愛跟炒作我覺得這個還是持續進行中所以是不是有什麼樣的具體作為或檢討"},{"start":10867.72,"end":10881.41,"text":"再次來怎麼樣去惡煮黃牛的這種行徑在這一次的詹學友的這個演唱會我覺得文化部就展現了一個比較有效果的那個方法就是先斷絕兩萬多個假帳號然後"},{"start":10887.611,"end":10889.353,"text":"在現場也發現有黃牛就是說我們用幾個方式進到去"},{"start":10901.141,"end":10901.341,"text":"部長請回"},{"start":10938.902,"end":10956.362,"text":"好,我們接下來請吳佩奕委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我請文化部部長及教育部、國教署。好,我們請彭署長跟李部長。"},{"start":10962.045,"end":10965.069,"text":"我先請教文化部部長部長好我們台灣是在2019年我們訂定了國家語言發展法那當年為什麼要訂定這個法律呢就是因為我們發現我們台灣有諸多的母語正在面臨嚴重的傳承危機"},{"start":10981.649,"end":10994.241,"text":"因應立法之後我們也制定了國家語言發展方案在這個方案當中有一項很重要的就是我們明定了我們的國家語言包含了臺灣原住民族語、臺灣客語、臺灣台語然後馬族語以及臺灣手語等"},{"start":11000.755,"end":11013.675,"text":"這些是我們的國家語言以及華語然後我們依此來訂定相關推動使用保存的計畫其中有一項很重要就是我們希望不管是在我們的書面使用還是口頭稱呼要來證明"},{"start":11017.065,"end":11039.345,"text":"在我們的國家語言發展方案裡面是有明定的因此我們也 行政院也發了函誓與地方政府要求未來應該要優先使用所以首先我想請問部長今天我們的專題報告除了文化部的報告以外你有沒有看過教育部還有客委會原文明會的報告"},{"start":11040.963,"end":11055.977,"text":"我沒有 我只看到我們自己的好 那麼光是我舉教育部今天的報告來說裡面使用到閩南語的次數是44次而使用到台語的次數是4次"},{"start":11058.305,"end":11062.049,"text":"這個問題其實在立法院本委員會不是第一次提出了2022年的時候當時的賴品瑜委員在實訊當中就要求文化部因為你們是法規的主責單位當然後續的業務分工還有教育部、原民會、客委會但你們是法規主管機關"},{"start":11078.266,"end":11089.495,"text":"當時就要求文化部必須要來督導及協調各部會要趕快至少在公文書至少你們自己使用的公文書趕快來證明了你們自己的公文書都不證明你們發的函字給地方政府誰會來遵守"},{"start":11101.197,"end":11117.83,"text":"當時2022年文化部長前部長李永德也就承諾文化部會來協調相關部會而當時的教育部長潘文忠部長也承諾教育部會開始進行盤點我請問國教署署長今天我們提供的報告裡面"},{"start":11119.636,"end":11129.067,"text":"你們就沒有依照你們自己的含釋沒有來優先使用我們國家語言發展方案裡面要求的名稱證明就應該使用臺灣台語來 署長有沒有發現這個問題"},{"start":11138.028,"end":11156.539,"text":"謝謝委員這件事情一直在行政院裡面有一些協調文化部也很認真在處理我就請問你們教育部你就你主責的部分回答就我們主責的部分國教署負責課綱的部分那課綱的部分剛才有回應報告過書長啊我現在就請問你今天的專題報告內容這一份公文書"},{"start":11162.293,"end":11168.157,"text":"需要來請教地方政府嗎?需要請教教學現場嗎?這份公文書是誰核定的?這一個報告是誰核定的?是!你們有沒有辦法來決定你要使用什麼樣的名稱?有沒有辦法?我就只這一份報告就好了你不要跟我講課綱"},{"start":11184.775,"end":11186.375,"text":"光是這一份報告就可以看出我們現在的問題"},{"start":11207.2,"end":11216.566,"text":"謝謝委員我們部長、你們教育部已經承諾過要來進行盤點有困難的部分我們非常清楚但是可以做的趕快開始做不要再找其他的理由委員提醒的這幾點我們會切開來就能處理的部分來什麼時候完成盤點剛才有跟陳委員這是你們早就要完成盤點的事情兩年前2022年"},{"start":11234.096,"end":11237.637,"text":"你們就承諾要盤點了什麼時候完成盤點兩個禮拜之內可不可以就我們現在你主責的業務教育部主責的業務今天部長沒有來回去轉達教育部主責的業務可以來改進的部分趕快完成其他需要跟地方政府協調你們有問題的法規主管機關文化部嘛有需要報給院嘛大家一起來幫忙"},{"start":11262.796,"end":11269.739,"text":"可不可以做到?2022年的時候教育部長在這個地方就承諾立法委員要來進行盤點已經給你們兩年的時間了你們已經延宕兩年所以兩週之內完成教育部的盤點就就台灣台語要證明使用的部分告訴我們你們現有就可以來協調的公文書不需要協調啦"},{"start":11290.981,"end":11298.792,"text":"就整體的那個是可能兩週內但是就不理的要處理的我們教育會所有的委員一份報告就不理的兩週內應該沒有問題我請文化部長"},{"start":11302.165,"end":11308.746,"text":"所以部長你是新任的部長但我不需要拜託你這個問題兩年之前我們教委會的委員就已經提出來了你們還是法規的主管及管情部長務必後續要去追蹤各個部會我們是不是已經在進行優先使用證明了因為這對我們來說我們政府"},{"start":11324.85,"end":11335.313,"text":"要呼籲我們整體社會一起來肯認一起來投入我們國家正在瀕臨流失的語言的保存使用我們連一份來立法院的專題報告都沒有辦法優先證明了我們如何來帶領社會呢?部長後續請你務必要去追責這一點我會加強"},{"start":11350.083,"end":11366.292,"text":"好,部長也要請問你的事因為今天這個報告對我們來說很重要因為我們立法的目的就是希望看到國家語言我們曾經被剝奪學習的母語有辦法重新的回到我們的生活當中那就文化部所負責"},{"start":11367.273,"end":11368.493,"text":"我請那個有沒有達到你們有限定定的目標好請施展"},{"start":11396.947,"end":11413.884,"text":"委員好這是我們在4月30日收建86件那目前正在審核當中我們在這個禮拜五會開決審會議就是知道會公大概有幾件會議這個我覺得很重要這個簡報上面是我曾經參加一個podcast的受訪那主持人就要求我說這一集我們就全程來使用台語結果呢那個就"},{"start":11417.287,"end":11419.348,"text":"現場就變成他們說叫蔡基互佐因為我這輩我是1987年那一年出生我這輩的台語的狀況就是說在家裡爸爸媽媽都跟我們講台語結果我們從小聽台語都跟他發語這樣所以說我也是從小學一學開始專業一學我才很努力在學習台語所以呢"},{"start":11440.635,"end":11458.162,"text":"文化部來支持我們本土的文化內容、自治來多使用我們的國家語言其實是非常去有助於我們國家語言的推動所以這一個我非常的肯定那也希望我們後續可以繼續來支持那還有除了這個網路影音以外部長"},{"start":11460.371,"end":11470.716,"text":"你也是文化人所以我要問你一個是我自己很喜歡的節目你有沒有看過一個電視選秀節目叫大嘻哈時代我知道曾經在金鐘獎得獎是那你有沒有聽過裡面的幾個嘻哈的創作"},{"start":11478.797,"end":11502.702,"text":"說說看這個節目首先要講第一個我們現場大家都應該要去看因為這是我們文化部補助支持的文化部補助來支持我們臺灣本土的嘻哈創作這個節目不只是因為觀看的流量很高以外後去也孕育了我們非常多的原先已經努力很久的這些嘻哈創作者他開始"},{"start":11503.382,"end":11519.272,"text":"有了他第一個舞臺受到更多的關注後續也出了專輯甚至開始到其他的國家海外去演出其中呢這個第二季的冠軍阿夸麵他後面也出了專輯也開了專場在Legacy World去聽"},{"start":11521.693,"end":11550.588,"text":"那他就是著名的是使用全台語來創作即像是《紅宮少年圈》幾首歌網路的點閱率都非常高當中也有的客語的嘻哈創作者亞皮我們客委會也有來跟他合作他這首歌就是以我們客家的苗栗的一個競典叫做崩流來做創作內容所以這個我覺得非常的好那大嘻哈時代是不是有繼續的要來做第三季來跟我們文化部"},{"start":11551.51,"end":11552.37,"text":"大西亞真的是一個非常值得推廣的"},{"start":11571.915,"end":11572.235,"text":"謝謝吳佩奕委員和部長秦輝"},{"start":11602.705,"end":11602.925,"text":"梁美芬議員"},{"start":11621.758,"end":11646.271,"text":"部長快要午安了辛苦了那剛剛因為林一金委員有問到中正今天堂的事情那我蠻贊同他的看法所以就想到不知道部長有沒有看過那個我們文化部針對那個促轉會解散之後曾經來我們教育委員會去年3月報告的文化部關於轉型正義的三大任務部長有看過那個報告嗎"},{"start":11648.253,"end":11660.751,"text":"我沒有看過但是我大約知道它的方向那您知道那個三大任務就是促轉會解散後那有各部會就歸各部會了文化部關於轉型正義的三大任務是什麼您知不知道"},{"start":11663.259,"end":11680.246,"text":"中正紀念堂的轉型好像是由我們文化部來主責成立一個那個對 中正紀念堂轉型是三大之一另外兩個一個是政治檔案的研究跟人權教育還有一個是不義遺址不義遺址對對對那關於中正紀念堂轉型裡面的方向不知道您曉不曉得就是寫在你們自己的報告裡面我假如沒有記錯的話就是去威權跟去崇拜這兩個方向"},{"start":11689.969,"end":11702.138,"text":"就是去威權然後要讓它變成是一個符合民主人權的那詳細的文字我不記得但是非常清楚就是逐步去威權所以林益勤委員剛剛講的那個方向我覺得如果國防部支持的話"},{"start":11705.981,"end":11706.802,"text":"中文建黨竟然不是皇室的話那你現在繼續有這個三軍一隊那個意義代表什麼"},{"start":11726.124,"end":11726.464,"text":"支持林議員剛講到的部分也提醒部長"},{"start":11748.346,"end":11759.449,"text":"第二點我想問部長因為你們今天報告寫得非常清楚說文化部放在這個臺灣臺語的預算上是15億那想請問部長這個15億是佔文化部的年度預算的百分之多少那非常少我還要算一下市長知道嗎 可以幫忙一下 不知道齁"},{"start":11773.174,"end":11775.96,"text":"因為我們今年預算是298億嘛,然後15億除以298是多少?誰可以幫算一下?"},{"start":11788.251,"end":11813.308,"text":"5%我想如果台灣台語都這麼少客語原住民語應該是更少可是我看到你們的結論說語言是文化的靈魂語言既然是文化的靈魂我們對靈魂的投資只有5%這是不是太低了所以我覺得也希望那個部長可以協助剛剛很高興聽到您在回應林俊憲委員的時候有提到您過去當那個是華氏是不是"},{"start":11813.848,"end":11814.769,"text":"但是我在我辦公室是台語講得最令動的"},{"start":11843.692,"end":11855.804,"text":"所以你可以知道這個臺語消失的世代剛剛林俊憲委員說最後一代臺語人是真的危機很深危機很深 文化部只放5%在語言式文化的靈魂的話"},{"start":11859.528,"end":11880.086,"text":"是不是可以統整一下就是過去10年這個方面的預算然後未來如何逐步增加好嗎我們是政府部門那這個瓶領消失的而且語言有強勢跟弱勢強勢的語言它就是商業能力強你不用規定大家就自己學英語就是嘛"},{"start":11880.706,"end":11905.219,"text":"那弱勢語言就是特別需要文化部花資源而且讓文化部這邊有有趣的材料教育部的那邊的學生就會有興趣學我想這個部分絕對要有精彩的文化作品教育部的工作才能做好好不好那請那個部長可以盤點一下讓我們知道你未來4年的如何逐步增加的報告可以給我們給我一份好嗎"},{"start":11906.199,"end":11924.647,"text":"包括電影、電視其實我們一直在增加中那有個計畫方向像那個我看過的那個魔法阿嬤就非常棒他就是不同的語言然後裡面阿嬤就是講台語然後非常的精彩那大家都喜歡魔法阿嬤現在在作惡"},{"start":11925.547,"end":11927.108,"text":"謝謝部長,那您請回好謝謝那我們請那個署長好,有請署長"},{"start":11945.096,"end":11969.62,"text":"署長,我其實想就教育的來講我們辦公室跟你們所知做了研究之後雙語政策我們師資來源是四年三十億可是我們增加本土語言師資來源五年總計只有十四億多同時師資增加經費雙語政策是國家語言的兩倍這個署長您知道吧"},{"start":11972.038,"end":11975.282,"text":"有些在項目的定義上容我在說明但是我們從兩個計畫的比較來看兩個計畫雙語計畫在111年到112年總共投資不含外資是18億本土元是23億"},{"start":11992.699,"end":11993.78,"text":"雙語政策是家會幾種語言"},{"start":12014.893,"end":12031.266,"text":"雙語,如果就目前看到的可能大家會覺得是英語跟華語但是我們今天報告中有提到沉浸式的那裡面就有非常多比如說有700校在處理的它的那個另外語就是本土語言但是你這個雙語的這個師資沒有華語嗎?雙語裡面就是一個語言英語嗎?"},{"start":12034.889,"end":12036.491,"text":"但是本土語文這個師資是集中語言,你知不知道?"},{"start":12049.718,"end":12068.626,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":12069.166,"end":12095.245,"text":"規劃了30億本土語言你剛講五十幾種我這邊辦公室寫至少二十幾種五年只有14億所以教育部在這個國家語言教育跟英語教育的巨大的資源落差其實我是蠻憂心的那我並沒有說我們要刪減雙語政策的師資那個部分我覺得就是說教育部做了那是一個方向可是國家語言這個部分"},{"start":12095.825,"end":12100.906,"text":"就是說有50幾種語言分享這麼有限的師資的資源真的是目前的一個危機那其實潘部長當時我們在通過相關的法的時候他就已經說了師資是挑戰這是當時的那個新聞那到現在為止你如果去問第一線的老師等等他們也是會告訴你師資不足是很嚴重的問題"},{"start":12121.652,"end":12142.347,"text":"剛剛署長你已經回應好多委員關心這個問題了我就不重複了我只是在講如果把裡面的課語拿出來看因為剛剛我們講了很多台灣台語的課語的部分從17學年起達門檻學校應有課語專長教師至少一人或什麼可是你看到我們"},{"start":12143.228,"end":12151.547,"text":"最近我們找到的資料第一線教師反映學校好像不了解你們通過的辦法這些資訊都沒有積極開缺"},{"start":12153.547,"end":12180.236,"text":"以客語來看至少這個臺灣台語還各縣市開缺一一一到一一二學年度地方政府開缺了39人客語只有新竹縣在開缺只有4人所以請問署長能不能夠解決這個問題相比之下就是就師資的部分就是完全都不開缺只有新竹縣需要客語老師嗎"},{"start":12183.338,"end":12195.669,"text":"委員給我5秒鐘跟您報告一下這個實資的說明他是到117年在課語重點發展區他有一定的規範例如在國中14班以上的要有一個全台灣有12個"},{"start":12198.071,"end":12216.577,"text":"我們怎麼做兩點來做第一點列考核第二點給予獎勵來運用它那麼因為是到117年現在是準備進到113年那目前我們的管制剛剛的4人現在已經進到12人所以在相關的方法上是有效的但我們還是照委員的要求持續努力"},{"start":12217.478,"end":12237.837,"text":"繼續努力至少要讓地方政府知道這都需要的如果連客語大限都只有要求四人那苗栗那些還都沒有看到的話我想這個危機一直都存在那最後呢我想我們針對雙語做了非常多大學生偏鄉陪伴學伴"},{"start":12238.597,"end":12264.805,"text":"沉浸式教學是我們雙語教育要做的那我們針對國家語言發展會議這是文化部主責的其實第8項建議就是沉浸式教學需要誘因那教育部是不是可以比照我們的雙語政策你雖然剛剛說有一點但是我懷疑比重非常少那針對我們國家語言特別是今天我們幾位講到的其實就是台灣台語、台灣客語跟原住民語言"},{"start":12267.386,"end":12284.253,"text":"能夠也發展出大學生偏鄉陪伴、學伴的這些機制讓他的沉浸式教學能夠得到教育部更多資源的一個益助好不好?沒問題,稍微那個方向,謝謝那多久之內可以把這個初步規劃給我們辦公室一份呢?三週內三週喔,好,那謝謝署長,那加油喔謝謝委員"},{"start":12289.005,"end":12293.007,"text":"有請文化部李部長部長好委員好另外一位教育部彭署長可以嗎?"},{"start":12318.186,"end":12319.707,"text":"是歧視高齡者的元兇嗎?這個罪名好像很大"},{"start":12334.324,"end":12352.402,"text":"但是我剛剛看到了一個我們今天談的台語教育占文化部的預算5%但是我們有800萬的高齡者占文化部文化預算當中的0.2%"},{"start":12355.925,"end":12364.923,"text":"如何部長會來看待這兩件事情臺語這件事情5%大家都還嫌少那你這個是"},{"start":12367.984,"end":12387.677,"text":"為什麼輕重當中你的想法是怎麼樣?我回答一下,如果官司從預算看好像0.2很少那事實上文化部的所有的管所、文化部所曾經的表演比如說我們下鄉表演也非常多的阿公阿嬤帶著孩子看我們這樣加起來的預算絕對不只0.2也許在"},{"start":12390.439,"end":12393.48,"text":"應該也是啦 應該也是但是那個叫做"},{"start":12411.772,"end":12415.356,"text":"另外一個就是說我們文化剛才提到文化是一個國家的靈魂那這個靈魂不要太政治化"},{"start":12434.906,"end":12447.123,"text":"臺語非常好,我們家都講臺語,語言非常好,但是語言是生活,不是政治,剛才太多人討論都把它很政治化了。"},{"start":12448.304,"end":12470.295,"text":"另外一個就是因為所有的文化只要跟政治太靠近就是叫做劣等文化了歷代看起來只要文化為政治服務那個時代就像以前的反共八股、解放軍八股那個時代所有的文化做出來我們現在看起來都覺得可笑無比希望我們這個時代所留下來的文化"},{"start":12471.237,"end":12477.102,"text":"嗨,你好嗎?你可以站在那邊,這位是Mark你好嗎?我很好,你呢?很好,告訴我們你的第一名和年齡我的年齡嗎?"},{"start":12496.411,"end":12506.121,"text":"我的名字是Paolo,我25歲。我的名字是Daniella,我19歲。我24歲。我35歲。我31歲。我33歲。我26歲。你認為自己的年齡是什麼?40歲。也許50歲。我覺得30歲是新的20歲,所以我會說40歲。我可能會說50歲。我希望你能給我示範一個老人在街上走路。"},{"start":12530.886,"end":12544.356,"text":"示範一位老人家如何發訊息?一位老人家如何做推動?"},{"start":12554.525,"end":12578.521,"text":"看到這裡因為沒時間這個看起來年輕人都有志異同認為所形容的老人有人認為說40歲是老人有的大概就50歲普遍的共識是50歲啦我們的成語也是50歲就半白老翁嘛算老人然後他們會有這些反應嘛"},{"start":12581.844,"end":12599.175,"text":"現在50歲的在座的有多少人是這個樣子?部長你會這樣子嗎?其實我都70歲了我還可以跟學生打籃球對啊但是為什麼大家這麼有共識這些是從哪裡來的?他們的觀念是從哪裡來?"},{"start":12600.626,"end":12622.051,"text":"其實我覺得我剛才看那個是這個畫面不可思議了不可思議喔對就難以想像那個文化上面對老人或者是對那個歧視是應該回到還是文化我覺得台灣沒那麼嚴重嘛台灣是全世界最嚴重的我等一下會給你看數據好吧OK好"},{"start":12627.804,"end":12652.739,"text":"部長也承認這些年齡歧視來自文化後面有一個文化的背景那這個你怕老嗎?部長你怕老嗎?我沒有怕過,我覺得越老越好越老越好,對你應該把這樣的觀念告訴大家大家都怕老耶所有的企業都要去老化抗老啊"},{"start":12654.522,"end":12677.055,"text":"去勞、抗勞、很怕跟勞參照編,為什麼?因為你可以知道你只要去Google,你把勞這樣子引發輸入裡面那個大數據依附過來的都是什麼?失智、健忘、依賴、體弱、多病,然後這個不管身體有毛病心理都有毛病"},{"start":12678.536,"end":12703.248,"text":"反正老就是一切負面的代名詞事實上很多醫學證明包括諾貝爾的得獎者平均大概有八成八成都在60歲以上都在60歲以上的得獎人包括現在很多醫學證明甚至包括在創意高齡者的創意都比年輕人好"},{"start":12704.264,"end":12718.66,"text":"因為創意是一種神經節的連結它的連結資料庫更多還有很多的策略事實上我們要但是我們一般所想像的不是這個樣子所以我們看起來老是很負面的這應該是來自"},{"start":12720.582,"end":12740.727,"text":"WHO有關年齡歧視當中有提出三項策略第一項策略叫政策與法律第二項叫教育的干預措施第三個就是待接觸的那請問教育部跟文化部有如何去減少年齡歧視的作為問一下教育部"},{"start":12743.863,"end":12769.125,"text":"跟委員報告,其實教育部在有關於減少年齡歧視的部分其實我們會透過有關於代監的一個學習你再大聲一點,聽不到你的聲音我們有透過那個代監學習的這樣子一個機制比如說我們在大專業院校在任寧大學裡面其實有相關的一個代監學習的課程我們是透過大專業院校的學生跟我們的任寧學者的部分去共同學習某一個課程其實我們一直認為說"},{"start":12770.906,"end":12796.603,"text":"我知道,但是我給你看一下,其實這個反歧是要從小做歧每一個年齡層,包括我有三個孫子我有三個孫子,這個念小學的這個,老師叫他他有一天帶了一個畫了一個,我說你畫誰啊他說畫爺爺,拿個拐杖,我說我有拿拐杖嗎"},{"start":12798.271,"end":12824.703,"text":"他說沒有啊沒有為什麼你這樣話他說因為書本上爺爺都會拿拐杖那對這個就是我們很多其實從小的課本當中來這個因為很多資料包括我們現在的繪本當中對老的的描述了齁那這一個以老為主角的齁大概只佔只佔這個多少"},{"start":12827.211,"end":12854.997,"text":"1.69%的老人在這個很多的兒童繪本當中都不重要而且73.74%是負面的形象是老所以包括我們很多老妖怪一定是老的嘛巫婆一定是老的嘛所以有老巫婆然後什麼所以反正老的都代表不所以包括老妖怪什麼這個兒童會強化而且這個變成從小開始植入了以後到一直一輩子"},{"start":12856.91,"end":12874.831,"text":"這就是我們台灣的教科書對高凌哲形象的塑造大概高凌哲扮演的主要的角色都是祖父母父母還有鄉里鄉巴勞還有就是悠閒人士無事可做的"},{"start":12878.318,"end":12887.454,"text":"有關教科書這方面我們會來做個盤整跟檢視提供給出版商來做一個參考跟建議做這樣的回應謝謝"},{"start":12892.283,"end":12905.817,"text":"有關我們現在用大數據如果引發高齡老人的大數據大概會呈現出這樣子如果你談入壯世代他出來的就是時尚質感活動比較符合我們現在的真真實其實"},{"start":12909.244,"end":12930.792,"text":"高齡這就是那個電影現在很多就是壯世代的影片包括前一陣子張學友這個爆滿張學友這個代表就是壯世代產業很多壯世代願意花錢包括壯世代的美學高齡美學啦這個應該是文化部應該去重視的問題"},{"start":12934.165,"end":12947.672,"text":"每一個部會都在歧視這上次已經有講過講過很多次了還是再次提醒這個源頭來自於教育跟文化所以教育文化的確剛才要提到了而且是從小開始"},{"start":12949.451,"end":12964.072,"text":"另外這個不是老人問題這個也提到特別對教育部現在年輕人未來30年就台灣就是全世界最高的這明年畢業的大學生一腳就踏進高齡社會"},{"start":12965.254,"end":12994.614,"text":"這些年輕人30歲的時候台灣一般人超過50歲這些年輕人40歲的時候一般人超過60歲整個年輕人未來的世界就是一輩子活在高齡社會而這已經是被定型化了教育部如果他了解未來的年輕人不管他要做企業、做產業、做服務應該讓他去研究高齡的需求對高齡美學、高齡設計這方面應該是成為顯學希望我們教育體系應該注意到這事情"},{"start":12998.9,"end":13010.617,"text":"教育部、文化部從現在出盤評的作為文化內容投資的設計還有教育部在教科書、在高齡教育的部分"},{"start":13011.826,"end":13032.456,"text":"可否請兩個在兩個月之內提出高齡改善高齡歧視的文化跟教育方面的這些書面報告可否因為這個是重中之重因為先反歧視因為如果停留在這裡我們現在什麼幸福工程大計畫"},{"start":13033.356,"end":13044.372,"text":"那個背後需要的這一些有一千萬的人口高齡者壯碩五百萬包括年輕人這麼龐大的人他們生活日常90%都會碰到的問題"},{"start":13046.479,"end":13063.207,"text":"教育部可以嗎?文化部可以嗎?就是如何在文化部來減少高齡歧視?沒問題,我們都在做了。好,謝謝。那要提出報告。那另外教育部可以嗎?教育部有兩項也沒問題。可以喔?好的,謝謝,謝謝你們。"},{"start":13065.455,"end":13077.718,"text":"好,謝謝吳春誠委員。部長、署長請回。那我們接下來先處理臨時提案。那今天有委員提出臨時提案有四案,我們請宣讀。"},{"start":13078.786,"end":13098.955,"text":"第1案有鑒於《國家語言發展法》第4條整促國家語言一律平等國民使用國家語言不受歧視或限制據該法條主張令提供世界各國人士到臺灣學習中文、臺語之外應將原住民族與定位等同推廣提升國際視野成為外國人士學習及取得正"},{"start":13100.435,"end":13129.341,"text":"認證的重要語言請於3個月內回復立法院教育文化委員會提案人林倩琴、侯孟楷、柯之恩、鄭天才、高金、宿美提案為推動原住民族教育及辦理原住民族實驗學校因完善教學現場各項制度校長領選制度為地方自治權限應與尊重為原住民族實驗學校之校長的調動卻會牽動一個部落推動原住民族教育的希望"},{"start":13129.961,"end":13150.854,"text":"特別在獲得主管機關的籌備經費下．進行各項籌備時的任何調動．將影響課程的實施是否如期辦理．以此為如期推展原住民族教育及辦理原住民族實驗學校．請教育部審慎評估該項困境．請一個月內提出研議報告．送至委員會及原住．"},{"start":13151.594,"end":13177.205,"text":"原住民及立法委員提案人林倩琦、克之樂、孔孟凱、高金素梅、鄭天才第三案為解決長年足與師資不足之困境因修正高級中等以下學校原住民族老師資格及偏要辦法第二條規定需取得原住民族語言能力認證測驗高級以上合格證書之門檻限制因高級以上認證之考試方式與破落及其老脫節"},{"start":13178.505,"end":13200.623,"text":"會在原住民族委員會完善組與認證制度前請教育部先行修正將高級以上合格證書改為中高級以上有中高級以上之證書即可取得資格並參加申選但須在三年內取得高級以上證書不會取得則取消專職師資以比照原住民族教育法第31條精神"},{"start":13201.844,"end":13229.2,"text":"原住民公費生資格需有中級以上證書．畢業前則需取得中高級以上證書．請教育部一個月內提出研議報告．送至本委員會及原住民及立法委員．提案人林慶祺、柯之恩、洪孟凱．高階素梅、鄭天才．第4案．多數族人長年反映．高級以上原住民族語言能力認證測驗之考試方式．與部落其老脫節．"},{"start":13230.44,"end":13258.115,"text":"導致多數勤勞無法操作考試系統及理解命題思維而遲遲未考取到高級以上合格證書於是出現了會說主語的勤勞沒有國家認證沒有教學資格的現象與此請原住民族委員會議院內提出改善報告及經濟措施送至本委員會及原住民及立法委員提案人林倩琦、洪孟侃、柯志恩、高清素梅、鄭天才、薛永斌"},{"start":13259.585,"end":13267.2,"text":"好 四個案子喔 我們從第一個案子來看第一個案子提案人有何說明 補充說明"},{"start":13272.723,"end":13292.353,"text":"這個跟我早上講的那個內容基本上是一致的就是做一個推動然後我們就開始啟動這個推動的一個溝通平台是可是因為第一個案子跟其他三個案子唯一的不同是你沒有寫主責單位你要請誰給你三個月內回覆"},{"start":13294.677,"end":13296.88,"text":"教育部請教育部請教育部"},{"start":13309.497,"end":13312.599,"text":"我們就修正通過第二個案子提案人有何要說明嗎還是直接請"},{"start":13338.473,"end":13362.68,"text":"我們就來配合辦理好,教育部也配合辦理好,那我們就招案通過那第三個案子第三個案子也是教育部喔對,我們也是配合辦理好,那就招案通過好,謝謝那第四個案子原民會我們配合委員的提案做處理"},{"start":13365.364,"end":13366.185,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":13400.323,"end":13409.328,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請教育部還有原民會。好,有請教育部彭署長還有原民會邱副處長。好,兩位好。這個原住民族語言發展法,這個我們在"},{"start":13424.629,"end":13444.057,"text":"這個106年的時候在內政委員會審查這個法案的時候我特別在第一條的第一計畫明定原住民族語言為國家語言這個是所有的版本裡面我的條文的第一計畫而且我堅持在審查的時候"},{"start":13445.92,"end":13465.535,"text":"委員會前任主委以將保護主委建議依照行政院版通過而事實上行政院版就沒有這計畫但是我堅持原住民族語言為國家語言當時文化部的代表也認為"},{"start":13466.84,"end":13477.426,"text":"有困難他建議不要列入但是我堅持所以後來內政委員會通過了我的條文然後立法院也三讀通過"},{"start":13478.823,"end":13507.058,"text":"原住民族語言為國家語言很快的客家委員會他也修正客家基本法把客家語言也列為國家語言那文化部在制定國家語言發展法的時候在第三條也明定在臺灣的各族群的語言是國家語言設立了這樣的一個語言就必須要"},{"start":13508.646,"end":13537.28,"text":"我們台灣所有的中文之外的各族群的語言都是國家語言就要有平等的一個對待所以我們現在當然語言就是要傳承而最需要去加強傳承的就是原住民族的語言那我們看這個就是現在的現行條文原住民族語言為國家語言這個是一個很重要的在這樣的一個過程的當中"},{"start":13538.359,"end":13566.615,"text":"我們現在就教育部、委員會要去加強的部分足以老師嚴重不足嚴重不足本席對於這個原住民族教育法第29條各級政府對學生教育及12年國民基本教育階段學生應提供學習足以語言的機會那就要去落實到目前為止"},{"start":13567.865,"end":13591.836,"text":"還沒有落實在這個制定原住民族語言發展法的過程當中我特別要求在條文裡面要明定然後教育部跟園民會後來我經過很多的溝通你們本來尤其是教育部、園民會本來是要透過要有老師資格的才可以當族語專職老師我堅持只要經過族語認證"},{"start":13594.743,"end":13604.915,"text":"就符合原住民族教育法的規定所以通過了這個經過主委認證就可以擔任專職的主委老師但是這個時間111年8月22號的文當時教育部的調查結果是"},{"start":13616.303,"end":13637.58,"text":"三百四十六人的主委老師不足所以我開過很多次的協調會也質詢過教育部、原民會也告訴方法但是請問一下這個目前專職的主委老師目前的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":13639.657,"end":13662.644,"text":"委員報告在111年8月那個時候調查是為111學年那那個時間點到現在已經有兩年快要再加兩年所以已經再增加700位所以有超過當時跟委員報告的數字但是其中專任族語的部分那麼當時是219位現在也超過了到229位那總體而言事實雖然夠可是我們個人"},{"start":13669.066,"end":13692.481,"text":"還有很多學校老師還是很在意他的分配總量是沒有問題還有直播共學也沒問題我們還持續在分配上各地上在注意委員所提示的現象這個議題我從去年一直到今年不斷的質詢不斷的開協調會所以現在到底專職主委老師不足多少"},{"start":13694.551,"end":13694.671,"text":"主席"},{"start":13721.571,"end":13745.887,"text":"專政的部分他也是為了客這個我知道現在事實上還是不足啦持續跟地方政府一起來努力因為還是有我們的小朋友啊他沒有老師他不得不去閩南裔去上閩南裔的課還是有所以這個這個調查不是你們隨便調查的是確實是"},{"start":13749.494,"end":13752.457,"text":"您剛好舉的上面有文號是111年8月現在已經是113年我們繼續努力我們就以剛才你講的時間"},{"start":13767.662,"end":13782.974,"text":"然後在這個時間之後你們增加了多少專職主義老師是是是好的好的對不對這個這樣就知道了嘛是今天下班錢給您喔就是說你們到底增加了多少專職主義老師好那個顏明慧最後一句話這個要徹底解決然後因為這個是也是給我們的"},{"start":13792.188,"end":13793.109,"text":"你把這段時間這兩年辦理的情形"},{"start":13820.009,"end":13829.151,"text":"好 我們再提供給委員好 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員請回那我們現在請張雅玲委員謝謝主席 我們邀請文化部部長好 有請李部長好 委員好"},{"start":13847.274,"end":13866.082,"text":"部長好,就是說因為我們今天在討論就是國家語言研究發展中心這個設置的一些問題那我想要特別的來跟部長來提醒一件事情就是說其實我們在講台語就是說像客委會或原委會他們都有負責客語、原住民語但是文化部其實是台語的專責部會"},{"start":13868.103,"end":13884.296,"text":"我覺得部長需要了解我們這個台語消失的速度是有多麼的快速所以我們必須要積極的來做一些事情那接著從這張表呢我想要特別跟部長說的是說我可以看我框起來這兩個框框一個是11歲以下一個是30到39歲"},{"start":13886.55,"end":13901.876,"text":"也就是說從這個年30到39歲以下呢我們的台語能力迅速的下降剛剛好這一群人的小孩差不多也就是未滿11歲以下所以我認為親子是重振台語的重要族群"},{"start":13902.296,"end":13920.57,"text":"但這一段時間以來我也跟我文化不停的在討論我們可以針對於親子母語家庭在多做什麼事情包含我們可以擴展出更多的社區結合所以這個部分的話我希望這待會會跟我後面的主題會有關係但是我們先強調一個重點親子是一個很重要的族群"},{"start":13922.652,"end":13941.29,"text":"再跳回來一下國家語言發展中心裡面我發現就是說在條例簡報裡條文沒有變但是簡報裡的說明有一些細微的文字差異譬如說在2020年我們講的是可與相關單位共同投入國家語言語言輸入法語言辨識、語言理解之研發"},{"start":13942.771,"end":13962.782,"text":"但是在我們2023年呢我們就變成了強...剛剛那段紅色線的字呢它就變成了強化語料的後續加值應用所以我想要確認喔是說這一個是說我們是希望定義更擴大是希望讓AI可以進來一起來支持我們的本土語言嗎這個我想要確認一下"},{"start":13966.115,"end":13981.986,"text":"是是好啊那這部分的話因為其實我之前在質詢國科會的時候也希望說因為現在有做臺語的這個CHAT GPT嘛臺語GPT機器人那我也希望之後可以文化部也可以積極的來產出一些相關整理一些相關的政府資料來協助我們做更多的臺語的應用來協助臺語的教學"},{"start":13986.167,"end":14012.611,"text":"再來就是說還是回到我們剛剛講親子那孩子從很多的論文來看這個Renice Kennedy她在1990年的時候她做了一個研究她的結果是說讓幼兒進入在一個充滿語言和文字的環境之中他們就會自發的和成人及其他幼兒用各種不同的方式互動溝通這些方式包含聽說讀寫所以代表了環境的重要性"},{"start":14013.351,"end":14037.596,"text":"在2004年黃美晶研究了一個他給18個孩子新聞報導然後他就問孩子說我跟你用文字呈現用影片呈現用圖卡呈現你們哪一個反饋回來的訊息是最正確的其中他們發現了影片的形式效果是最好的所以這告訴我們什麼影音跟環境是影響孩童語言發展的一個重要要素"},{"start":14039.625,"end":14066.035,"text":"可是呢我也看到我們小孩語言學習環境接觸點有家庭有教育有影視有社區對不對從剛剛這些結論來說那我們現在母語有家庭政策教育有本土語言政策但是我們雖然影視有公式台語還有台語的一些兒少節目但是我們好像還有很多事情可以做畢竟接觸點不能只有單項嘛還應該有更多的點那再來我們社區目前這塊也還是有欠缺的"},{"start":14067.176,"end":14092.535,"text":"所以我想請提供部長一個方向來思考就是說我們現在在寫這些臺語的一些政策的時候社區母語的一些計畫你可以看到我紅色底線的地方我們都還是用家庭而已家庭為概念也就是我們剛剛講的我們可能把母語再擴張出去母語家庭再擴張出去到社區但是我在想我們有沒有可能參考新住民家庭服務中心的模式"},{"start":14093.195,"end":14116.251,"text":"因為它其實新住民也是散落在全台灣各個縣市嘛22個縣市裡面他們總共設置了39個新住民家庭服務中心以新北為例在去年他們這個語文樂學計畫有11個學校參與那產出了課程8個案子應對7個案子親子共學2個案子然後他們還有做第二件事情就是26所策略聯盟的學校產出了56門"},{"start":14118.633,"end":14142.329,"text":"規劃56門課程總共有4000人次參與所以這創造了一個基地的概念所以我在想說我們是不是可以跟內政部或是我們可以來做一個研究報告來研究我們是不是也可以來做一個台語的社區服務中心或是一個台語的基地社區基地讓這個環境一直持續的被創造出來那才能夠幫助我們台語的學習不知道部長的看法是什麼我可以研究看看我也蠻同意的"},{"start":14147.618,"end":14148.198,"text":"一個月應該是規劃,然後執行的話"},{"start":14162.924,"end":14186.951,"text":"我們想說如果一個月內我們提出我們規劃的想法那如果大家同意的話那我們看下半年度或者是明年度開始執行部長跟次長我想這邊我還是想強調一點就是說如果我們研究這個成效是好的我自己覺得我們是可以來仿照啦當然如果我們研究成效不好我們就可以再來想我們應該要怎麼來做這件事情因為環境回到剛剛研究是很重要一件事情那再來就是說"},{"start":14189.659,"end":14215.968,"text":"我也看到就是說我們其實文化部編列了非常多上次的質詢裡面也有講到我們編了很多的預算光影視發展就有九億七千七百萬表演藝術也有一億七千五百萬這些其實都是回到剛剛講的影視娛樂沒有錯這是一個很正確的方向不過我想要知道就是說我們到底有我們但是我再仔細來看我發現我們花在孩子的身上的部分的費用好像並沒有那麼的高"},{"start":14218.052,"end":14239.582,"text":"例如說我們在台語繪本兒歌的經費大概是1370萬那我覺得這部分我們是不是也可以再來好好的討論一下是我們現在還可以怎麼樣做把我們現有的投資再把它變成兒童的版本還是怎麼樣讓兒童 因為還是回到剛剛講的影視是它很重要的一個來源 這個部分"},{"start":14241.708,"end":14268.575,"text":"最近這幾年有一個很有名的動畫公司叫做木棉花那其實他最近也有出一個卡通他很久以前有出一個卡通叫做中華一般小當家但是他最近重新上了一個台語的配音台語的配音那這個每天晚上在9點在網路直播所以大人小孩都很有吸引力所以我在想如果我們剛剛那些影視節目有一些不錯的我們是不是可以加上台語的配音好了"},{"start":14270.716,"end":14283.475,"text":"再回到我們剛剛講的就是說因為一百一千三百七十萬的這一些經費裡面我想要了解的是說我們是持續的有在增加嗎跟過去比起來我們是持續的在增加兒童的投資嗎這可以到之後會後給我一個詳細現在有數字嗎"},{"start":14288.34,"end":14309.12,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這個基本上是補助案所以如果他進來補助有台語兒歌或是繪本的我們其實都盡量會支持可是因為先前沒有這樣的推動所以申請的量本來就不多那我們希望透過我們這樣持續的比較大力的支持後續第二季的時候有更多人進來申請的話我們都會盡量的給予支持"},{"start":14311.843,"end":14326.849,"text":"好,那這個部分的話就要再麻煩文化部繼續加強那我在想我們現有的部分可不可以再做一些更深入的像這個今年我們出了第一張臺語兒歌專輯而且發辦20場的幼兒巡迴而且還上了Spotify這些我覺得都非常棒"},{"start":14327.549,"end":14354.371,"text":"當然我在想啊可是我們還是要回到兒童接觸影音的環境還有哪一些像是我們還有214處的親子館啊我們還有6699處的幼兒園啊剛剛只有做20場是不是有點太少了尤其我們公幼就還有我們的公幼就有2000多家了然後再來最後一個電子遊樂設施散佈在全台各大賣場的電子遊樂設施現在很多都可能播一些中國的或是英文歌我們有沒有可能播"},{"start":14354.991,"end":14360.014,"text":"我想我們來努力因為台語歌謠我們傳統的也有很多是台語歌謠沒錯對 所以這點我們來推"},{"start":14377.421,"end":14404.786,"text":"之前是不是也需要跟經濟部一起來合作那就是麻煩跟經濟部好好的來溝通因為其實像我之前過去在做特色公園的時候我們也有一些遊戲設施它是會播音樂的我們就讓它播什麼TOO啊所以這個就再麻煩部長然後最後一個問題想要再還是回到一個叫做我們現有的場館上面還有沒有可以更精進的部分但是我們現在有這麼多這個就是文化部所管的這個博物館"},{"start":14407.087,"end":14421.216,"text":"我發現我們常設展台在很多大型的博物館都有像是台灣博物館、歷史博物館、美術館都有可是我們在史前文化博物館在這一塊常設展的台語翻譯卻是缺乏的我想了解一下原因可不可以說明一下"},{"start":14424.7,"end":14447.402,"text":"這個部分我們再了解一下應該是還沒有做完我們在去年度的時候事實上是要求我們文化部的所屬館所都必須要做到長社展的台語版本那它應該是還沒有做完其他的館所大概都完成了好那我想要確認一下再來確認第二個東西是那國立的臺灣工藝研究發展中心也是一樣的狀況嗎?"},{"start":14449.743,"end":14459.145,"text":"最後一件事情就是國家鐵道博物館還在籌備所以我想我們就盡力的把一些該做的項目都把它完備 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員部長請回接下來請羅廷偉委員謝謝主席 有請部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":14481.499,"end":14509.888,"text":"委員好部長好部長跟你探討一些問題國家語言發展法2019年所推出為的目的就是尊重國家多元文化的精神促進國家語言的發展傳承、附贈以及其實這不是一個單一一個部會或是一部法律就能夠做到的各個部會在語言相關的一個探討當中都需要一起來努力如果有一些其他部門跟國家語言相關的議題依據國家語言發展法精神文化部"},{"start":14510.128,"end":14517.21,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":14517.786,"end":14543.703,"text":"本席首先就要問的與外交部相關配合國家語言發展法的訂定護照條例我們可以看到這個事情細則也在同一年也就是2019年進行的修法將外文姓名的申請從原本的國語讀音音譯改為國家語言的音譯也就是說我們可以用台語還有客語等語言為自己的外語姓名這一點部長您知道嗎?"},{"start":14545.018,"end":14561.001,"text":"我不知道欸好沒關係我們一起來探討但是近期我們在社群看到一些問題在臉書社團台語社中有一個網友要辦理護照希望用台語的教會羅馬拼音作為外文姓名但是卻遇到刁難"},{"start":14562.462,"end":14582.536,"text":"並被要求提供拼音的證明由於教育部的拼音是臺羅拼音所以被退回所以最後他是透過關係請母親聯絡之前的中區行政院聯合服務中心執行長處理才換成功我們看一下這個下一頁的截圖那對此本席想問兩個問題第一臺語的拼音系統"},{"start":14586.238,"end":14612.847,"text":"只對臺羅文字一種嗎?俗稱白話字的教羅不行嗎?國家語言發展法針對國家語言的定義是指臺灣各故有族群使用的自然語言教會羅馬字在臺灣也是有族群使用可是涉及到信仰的問題因為教育部只公布了臺羅的拼法讓教羅的使用者沒有辦法證明自己的拼音受到國家的肯定請問這種現象您覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":14616.061,"end":14637.859,"text":"是不是應該教育部比較知道這個?教育部可以幫你回答沒關係但是我還是回到剛剛說的我們看到文化部也是負責進行跨部會的一個協調所以我想教育部以及外交部出現這樣的問題我想文化部呢責無旁貸所以這個部分教育部目前了解這樣的問題嗎?好台語社我們剛剛所舉出的一個案例"},{"start":14639.781,"end":14664.273,"text":"各位報告是不是因為這一個可能要我們瞭解跟查證一下是不是下班前我請有關單位把詳細的細節瞭解之後盡速跟您辦公室回報好簡單來講就是現在我們因為我們有這個語言發展所以我要跟大家講就是白話制的教羅以及台羅這個部分我們應該一體一起來重視一下那第二個"},{"start":14664.673,"end":14679.554,"text":"問題喔就算國家肯認教會羅馬字也可以是拼音的一個一環很明顯在辦理的現場也遇到基層的人員不懂的問題請問現況下針對各部會人力是否有足夠的語言培訓是否有文化部來統籌"},{"start":14680.555,"end":14695.32,"text":"能否向外交部及其他部會來反映協調,針對人員的訓練避免民眾在受到這樣的困擾,然後甚至無法用自己認同的語言來作為自己的一個名字。我想文化部作為一個跨部會的協調統籌,是不是能夠幫忙協助這個部分呢?"},{"start":14695.779,"end":14721.92,"text":"好我們來扮演協調的角色好再麻煩這個文化部因為我有實際看到案例啦所以我們提出來絕對不是刁難但我們希望在各個部會當中能夠在這個語言發展法下文化部的一個跨部會能夠更加的友善那第二個本土語言的教育現場有發生一些問題也想要跟文化部來做一個探討那請問部長聽過社團法人EDU教育協會嗎"},{"start":14723.561,"end":14724.381,"text":"來,今年呢"},{"start":14747.096,"end":14762.443,"text":"今年報告在5月底剛出還熱騰騰其中也針對了本土語言進入的國民教育後實施兩年的一個成效我想這群孩子真的特別的優秀還會做出這樣子的一個報告首先在去年的調查中EDU發現"},{"start":14764.264,"end":14786.79,"text":"學生們針對本土語言列為高中階段的兩學分必修的不認同程度達到4乘3比認同的3乘2還要高但弔詭的是只有兩成的學生認為學習本土語言不重要或沒有意義或者是我們看到EDU進一步的調查發現教育現場出現一些明顯的問題有學生匿名反應"},{"start":14787.93,"end":14811.673,"text":"學校會明示或暗示學生選擇統一的語言以方便授課或對學生選擇不同語言表示不悅認為徒增行政端的一個困擾甚至直接告訴同學學生的很多都會亂選米東語、客語、原住語米這個學校現有的師師就是米男"},{"start":14812.794,"end":14826.704,"text":"請大家要協助換言之我們如果我是一個因為我客家人我是一個客語的使用者可能會面臨學校希望所有人都去學台語而我被逼著也只能去學台語的情況請問教育部有接過這樣的投訴嗎"},{"start":14829.284,"end":14858.704,"text":"委員所提這個EDU這個這個召集人是李召集人我們有聯繫過針對這個事情其實在剛推的時候在108課綱之前的前身901館的時候我們就有去做處理那時候在縣市當局長類似這樣的事情那每個縣市局長都很關心在處理中那現行我們知道有一位我們就要開課的這件事我們是跟縣市都很堅持那如果還有這個現象我們接到反應"},{"start":14859.184,"end":14878.663,"text":"都會立即來協助對 有一位就要開課當然這是我們希望能夠達到的因為國家語言發展我們要尊重各族群可是現在就問到就是教學現場有遇到有一位就要開課那行政端就會給予他明示或暗示我相信這應該不是我亂編造的是有可能的一個狀況"},{"start":14879.704,"end":14883.666,"text":"所以我們現在就很關注嘛,個別語言的專業失之不足導致學校端的作業困難有沒有因應的措施啊?"},{"start":14896.358,"end":14918.758,"text":"議員的措施其實事前也跟委員有做報告我們持續跟委員在探討有兩個方法第一個就是從現在3月開始過往的3月開始每年都跟縣市一直有盤點每個月一次到大概7月以後會每兩週一次到8月甚至每週會一次來協助全臺灣的大概3800所的高中以下的學校"},{"start":14919.558,"end":14945.97,"text":"更細緻的一個探討啦那把時間能夠縮短然後去做了解這也是不錯但第二個是成效的問題目前只有兩成六的學生對於課程編排感到滿意超過四成的學生感到不滿意這部分我想我提供這些數據你們應該先稍微了解一下而會在生活中落實本土語言的使用比例也僅有兩成五有將近三成認為完全無法將課程的內容因應到日常生活中"},{"start":14946.95,"end":14956.819,"text":"顯示原先本土語言課程想要達到讓學生在日常生活使用本土語言的目的並沒有成功實踐我們能不能說是失敗呢?你覺得呢?"},{"start":14959.138,"end":14959.278,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":14979.887,"end":14995.9,"text":"所以提出問題嘛那剛剛部長還在旁邊聽嘛我還是回到那一句就是我們因為有語言發展這樣子的一個建制之下我們需要文化部作為統籌去幫忙協助各部會協調但是教育部有沒有做過這個調查我們實行的實務上究竟發生什麼問題"},{"start":14996.561,"end":15026.064,"text":"我們問卷做出來的結果卻是如此我們應該要予以提供這些資料回到我們文化部然後還有各部會來做一個協調統整的一個依據你們擁有這些數據來反映各部會才知道狀況問題可能很多可能是教材的問題可能是教育方式的問題也有可能是問卷提到的因為上課時強調羅馬平淫並不夠生活化這個細節我們是不是也應該去探討一下導致過程中有可能因為有困難"},{"start":15026.644,"end":15047.675,"text":"失去信心甚至失去了興趣我們也有同學認同認為這個國中沒有本土語言的課程導致無法銜接上課聽不懂所以這些教師也很辛苦但是教育部這些問題要如何深入教育現場幫助基層老師進行解決而不至於讓本土語言的課程變成閒物的課程"},{"start":15048.315,"end":15065.372,"text":"這個我想教育部也應該要當責去了解之後去好好的去做探討我希望剛剛你說的一個月兩週一週去做一個細部的溝通這個部分能夠把他們現在所問卷調查出來的結果一起放入到探討裡面這部分可以嗎"},{"start":15066.814,"end":15088.831,"text":"包括剛剛委員提到的不管是教材甚至老師的教學有沒有太過於側重拼音而沒有回到學生學習主體那麼更多的時候我們的教材的編輯上能不能夠跟現在的真實生活或是它的難易度能夠更服應學生的學習跟興趣這個我們會一併做努力 謝謝"},{"start":15089.531,"end":15116.603,"text":"那還是回到剛剛一開始的開場依據國家語言的發展法精神文化部要負責進行跨部會的協調幫助各部會發展國家語言的這個目標我想部長這部分也仰賴您的協助教育部遇到這樣的問題我們提出來了教育部當然要當責去處理但是有這些數據文化部應該有責任去了解各部會的困難然後再幫忙去做一個與與統整協調好嗎是沒問題好謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":15120.316,"end":15141.963,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷偉委員部長請回好 我們接下來請黃仁委員黃仁 黃仁委員不在我們請林柱英委員林柱英 林柱英委員不在我們請林德福 林德福委員林德福委員不在我們請高金素美委員"},{"start":15148.672,"end":15148.692,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":15163.732,"end":15190.934,"text":"委員長,你對原住民實現學校的成立應該很了解,對不對?而且我們施行了好多年了原住民族學校的設立它是以原住民族的語言文化它的教育為核心的課程教育和學習的成就評量你應該也很清楚吧?好,謝謝所以呢,也就是說我們一間原住民族的學校的成立它是需要校長、老師、部落社區、家長還有我們的旗老共同支持、共同辦學才可以推動起來,對嗎?"},{"start":15192.675,"end":15215.343,"text":"所以校長扮演很重要的角色對不對但是現在我們在地方上有一些家長給我投訴他碰到的問題他說呢學校校長的領選制度當然啦他的調動還有領選是地方政府他的權責我們要尊重也給他支持可是呢碰到一個問題就是我們好不容易民主學校的成立"},{"start":15215.783,"end":15225.086,"text":"已經獲得主管機關的這樣的經費的核定開始籌備的時候可是卻聽到校長要被地方政府調動的這樣問題請問一下署長我們要怎麼解決委員所提的這個情況昨天我們有接到這個訊息"},{"start":15234.088,"end":15249.983,"text":"是不是容我因為昨天一接到已經是晚上是不是給我們兩天的時間把南投的這個情況就他的法律或實際情形查明清楚跟委員回報必要的時候做一些不是合法處置的部分我們會給予非常謝謝所以署長這很重要因為我們已經合訂了民主學校"},{"start":15254.787,"end":15255.047,"text":"兩天之內給我一個回應好嗎?"},{"start":15272.626,"end":15289.95,"text":"希望我們的國教署不要覺得兩手一攤覺得跟你們沒事情一定要處理 謝謝第二個我要問一下原民會我們請署長先休息一下我們通過了國家語言發展法還有原住民族的語言發展法我們也編列了111年到115年5年所謂的這個計畫然後編列經費是321億然後321億呢原民會一年只有15億"},{"start":15301.134,"end":15305.631,"text":"十五一要做16個族群、42個語系別的語言發展事務你認為夠嗎?"},{"start":15309.181,"end":15333.728,"text":"確實整體經費320因為它分4個部會是個大族群所以你們要不要努力爭取一下我們希望如果有下一期的整體發展方案能夠因為我們畢竟16組所以原民會要把這件事情告訴行政院對不對42個語別對啊因為我們今天非常的羨慕文化部裡面文化部裡面的預算就蠻多的光是推這個臺語的部分而我們的原民"},{"start":15334.668,"end":15353.65,"text":"有剛剛講到16個族群42個語系你們只有一年15億真的是不夠所以要極力爭取第三個我要問的是教職人員可能要教職人員跟直播共學這個就是因為資源分配的不公所以呢我們的族語師資分為專職教師教職人員跟直播共學對不對"},{"start":15354.631,"end":15378.391,"text":"那教職人員的直播共學他們這兩大類是佔最多數對不對他們沒有勞健保他們只有終點費然後他們的終點費又不符合現在的物價指數所以你要怎麼解決要不要提高他們的費用我剛講過這兩個教職人員跟直播共學是最基層的而且呢他們的工作難道不在語言發展嗎"},{"start":15380.021,"end":15383.403,"text":"能不能原民會來幫忙一下因為他也在所謂的語言發展事項嘛你們每年的十五億能不能也幫忙一下教育部的國教署"},{"start":15405.445,"end":15432.478,"text":"這個可能我們回去再盤點我們的經費資源跟各個計畫的我告訴你問題一定要再來就是再給我一點時間因為我們真的委員會的問題實在太多了專職主義的老師來看一下你知道我們現在有幾位專職取得高級認證取得高級認證累計下來應該有8000多名主任8000多名那8000多名的主任現在都是我們的專職主義老師嗎沒有那問題出在哪裡"},{"start":15433.695,"end":15445.45,"text":"當然因為從90年開始到102年到現在有些都年紀比較大了所以他們應該不會投入到我們一般的主義教學的行列裡面那你覺得8000個人夠嗎"},{"start":15447.628,"end":15451.932,"text":"我們要持續在培力那你知道問題有一個很嚴重的問題是什麼問題嗎因為我們現在的合格的那個是高級認證對那高級認證出了什麼方式出了什麼問題高級認證當然包括他的聽說讀寫的測驗方式對就是以漢人考試的方式來進行測驗嘛可是主語是用這種方式來認證的嗎不應該是吧所以你們是不是應該要修正一下"},{"start":15477.356,"end":15499.307,"text":"這塊委員之前有提醒所以我們其實已經跟演藝會就我們現在的聽說讀寫的認證除了這個部分要精進之外我的建議就是高級中等以下學校原住民族主義老師資格和聘用辦法的第二條我們必須把這個文字修正一下請問一下署長同不同意因為目前來講剛剛那個邱副署長有講高級認證的確是"},{"start":15502.108,"end":15512.188,"text":"我們當時在訂法律的時候有些人是非常堅持的我們就覺得他會有問題所以我們需要過度他並不是法律是在你們的第二條我們改為中高級可不可以"},{"start":15514.049,"end":15531.947,"text":"這個方向我們來努力我也知道袁明暉有在開會聯想中除了是要精進我們考試的模式在這個法上面我們要要求把高級族語認證改為中高級我這樣講是可行的為什麼因為我們有先例我們原住民族教育法第31條原住民學生參與私資培育的大學公費生"},{"start":15535.71,"end":15562.136,"text":"公開招生或校內甄選的時候他就已經明文規定是要中級以上當時為什麼用中級以上我們中級以上才能夠符合絕大部分的這些學生嘛 對不對那現在呢提中有一個非常重要的要點就是原住民的公費生他在畢業之前他要取得中高級也就是有個過渡期所以呢在我們的專職教師上面如果沒有一個過渡期"},{"start":15563.376,"end":15574.43,"text":"你直接就把說高級的話其實在原民會在考試制度上面沒有一些精進的錯誤你是會影響到非常多專職教師的聘用的可以嗎?"},{"start":15576.684,"end":15580.229,"text":"最後幾分鐘語推組織很重要對不對請問一下副處長現在語推組織他們執行很多計畫對不對那你覺得他們的人力狀況夠嗎"},{"start":15596.025,"end":15619.444,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為我們從原來的6大項工作其實到去年都檢到4項不過現在確實還是有各組理推組織就我們設定的KPI的部分希望我們能夠再跟他們重新調整我建議你很重要的一個部分就是我們現在姓名條例已經單列原住民文字通過了重要的是什麼你知道嗎書寫系統對"},{"start":15621.305,"end":15621.325,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":15649.78,"end":15650.84,"text":"國教署蓬署長、園民會邱副處長"},{"start":15684.026,"end":15698.073,"text":"主席好,我們常說語言斷文化滅民族王大家都已經朗朗上口耳熟能詳那背後當然這個關鍵就是失智所以我們今天在這個地方討論"},{"start":15699.674,"end":15718.759,"text":"我自己擔任立委的當中其實真的是三不五時我會接到一些陳情那些不見得是都會地區就是來到平地都市地區很多家長會跟我說我的小孩怎麼學校被迫上什麼語什麼語"},{"start":15720.96,"end":15743.967,"text":"這個也不是道聽途說我自己接過的陳情就很多那很多的報導也都會提到說教師荒這個荒是包括族語的教師所以呢在這個當中其實背後就是我們想要來看看到底出了什麼問題今天教育部的專報裡面有提供一個數據"},{"start":15745.487,"end":15765.228,"text":"米蘭語具有教師資格的將近一萬五千人克語五千多人原住民族語文兩千多人而且這個兩千多人除了包含正職專職的族語教師而且還分了16組"},{"start":15766.77,"end":15793.4,"text":"所以如果去除16族其實這個數據是有一點點嚴重所以先請教我們原民會跟我們的國教署署長就是到底有沒有去盤點過我們到底需要多少的族語師資然後有沒有去依照族群別去做調查因為我相信有的族群他其實是夠的"},{"start":15794.58,"end":15794.74,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":15806.485,"end":15828.152,"text":"就每一個學校內的孩子選完之後能夠提供師資的這件事我們是盡全力去處理但是我仍然也擔心所有的孩子他想要選當他進到了那個42個之別的語系的時候我覺得應該還要再努力"},{"start":15830.154,"end":15838.323,"text":"對,所以這個數據應該是很大的一段落差跟我們的需求量可是至少我們跟原民會持續來努力對,那這個資料要開始著手調查也希望如果說兩個月內來提供可以嗎?"},{"start":15847.472,"end":15851.135,"text":"我聽到最多的抱怨其實是說竹語教師說那個證照專業門檻很高啊然後待遇沒有吸引力那我們來看一下這些他講的證照資格"},{"start":15875.572,"end":15890.767,"text":"不論是從校外進來做教學支援的也就是教職老師他是需要語言證照高級以上跟合格證書學校內要來兼主語課他也是需要高級證照跟教師證"},{"start":15892.148,"end":15897.331,"text":"那麼如果我們來看待遇問題就來了我覺得這也是爭點我之前都有質詢過我希望教育部要來正視為什麼呢以前我們講的終點費260我自己是教師出身這個以前的源頭是這樣給正職學校的老師我們去監課我們去幫人家待課的時候那個有一點點是加班費的概念是給正職老師"},{"start":15921.164,"end":15942.904,"text":"但是沒有想到後來有越來越多支援教師的時候我們用這樣的終點費他們就會覺得有問題那我現在簡單的講因為時間的關係我們用一個最簡單的算法如果說以這些現在我們提高到360了他一個禮拜最多只能上20堂那麼他一個月的月薪28800"},{"start":15945.886,"end":15974.625,"text":"這是我們的最低基本工資而且有可能未來的最低基本工資還會高於他所以這個部分他是遠遠光是低於最低薪資的專職主語教師他的薪水是一半另外還有實驗學校的那些民族教育老師多半是年輕老師去擔任他們都有一整年13.5個月的薪水可是教資人員沒有寒暑假只有9個月"},{"start":15976.046,"end":15996.42,"text":"怎麼會找得到老師?怎麼會找得到老師?所以我覺得證照的門檻是一個問題但是不是最大的問題而是到底有沒有誘因能夠讓他們為這件事情當作一生的職業他們的職質為文化語言傳承來努力我覺得這個部分我們要來一起討論還有"},{"start":15998.841,"end":16024.043,"text":"這些老師都很辛苦,薪水不一樣同工不同酬我們最起碼給他們一個證明其實我們有一個聘用辦法他們都叫做原住民族語老師不要說你是專職教師我是教資人員不好聽啊其實他們都是原住民族語教師我想這個部分我們也要做最後一點就是我們要去做一個幫忙啊"},{"start":16025.004,"end":16029.869,"text":"既然教師慌我們找了一堆人拜託拜託來學校幫忙擔任主語教師一下但是我接到好多陳情造成困擾他們怎麼樣呢因為他們學校被要求要整學期投保"},{"start":16041.179,"end":16064.831,"text":"結果讓他們喪失很重要很重要的農保資格這是非同小可的事情影響他一輩子所以我想這個部分還有很多的問題可以到辦公室我們一起來討論那我現在是想說我最後一句就是希望原民會也好教育部也好不要忘記我們國家語言投注這麼多的錢"},{"start":16065.911,"end":16091.251,"text":"我們可能會想說好像沒什麼效果我們投注這麼多錢有用嗎我希望大家有一個遠大的願景其實我們還是最後要回歸到我們做這一些師資其實是希望未來能夠有一個原住民族學校一個以該族群語言為核心的一個一般學校那我想這個部分至少要來開始推事辦計畫"},{"start":16094.033,"end":16115.479,"text":"要不然越來越多人我們的社會對立的聲音對原住民那麼好語言的經費那麼多他們的語言到底有沒有進步國家這樣子做值不值得我們應該要推出一個願景我們要去透過這樣的師資的儲備我們先去做一些事辦的這樣的學校讓大家很快的看到"},{"start":16116.099,"end":16129.283,"text":"國小畢業走出去那麼會講族語這筆錢很值得我覺得教育部、原民會要好好思考這個問題好不好好謝謝署長、謝謝副處長、謝謝主席好謝謝,謝謝吳立華委員副處長請坐好我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請葉淵芝委員"},{"start":16151.325,"end":16167.279,"text":"我請那個教育部好了好,請彭署長署長,因為我現在是關心學校有關於母語推廣的問題那我們在學校,我不知道署長有沒有去了解一下學校推動母語的狀況給你幾個字,下一個註解"},{"start":16170.735,"end":16193.801,"text":"理想很豐滿,現實很骨感這是很多學校老師或他們的反應有一個校長遇到一個學生問學生說哇你學了那麼久的原住民語來講兩句給老師聽聽看講不出來了那如果我們理想是很豐滿但是現實很骨感的話那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題嗎"},{"start":16195.014,"end":16205.731,"text":"我們現在請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心這是不知道是文化部的是不是那請部長好不好我跟請教一下"},{"start":16207.711,"end":16225.246,"text":"國家語言發展研究中心這個編制多少人?還是他是一個什麼樣的單位?準備要成立他沒有一個完最後的最後人數但是一個大概準備要成立的一個原則"},{"start":16230.049,"end":16241.133,"text":"我們現在是先送組織條例行政法人國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院那行政院核定之後就會送到立法院所以現在在這個中心還沒有成立之前"},{"start":16243.043,"end":16268.488,"text":"最高的主管機關就是推動母語教育的是文化部國家語言的主管機關是文化部那所以是文化部嘛那所以文化部我覺得你就要站在最上位的概念去思考說為什麼我們不管在學校推動或是整個社會推動會出狀況嗎那我就以學校為例啦我不知道說部長你知不知道現在在學校或署長也可以幫忙回答最主要遇到的困難是什麼"},{"start":16270.27,"end":16292.895,"text":"大概我認為有三個第一個是實質第二個我個人認為教材我覺得教材可能還可以更生活而靈活那麼第三個我覺得在整體的牌課上對應到實質上學校端的一些運作那你都知道嘛那要解決嘛確實跟我了解差不多"},{"start":16293.905,"end":16321.104,"text":"因為比如以國小來講的話很多他沒有外聘老師他是導師兼導師不可能各種語言都會嘛所以就以閩南語教學為主那如果是原住民的語言的話就要外聘嘛外聘老師特別少特別少有些偏鄉學校不願意去那要不然就是會出現直播的狀況對不對原住民老師在別的地方線上教學那這個其實文化部做就好了嘛也不需要到學校推廣嘛"},{"start":16322.151,"end":16342.074,"text":"不然的話就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄了啦他去學閩南語啦所以這在現實上面推動就有很大的困難嘛然後在排課上面為了配合少數的比如說原住民的老師或者是其他的比較少數語言的老師有時候早自習要去上課或是晚自習要去上課"},{"start":16343.115,"end":16368.257,"text":"然後你108課綱當時要把必修課減少讓學校去開放選修結果後來又塞了母語進來也打亂了學校原本的排課所以是有造成學校端的一些困擾那我覺得如果這些困擾大家度過了問題解決了讓我們小朋友學會母語了我覺得很值得啦可是實際上你們現在有去分析覺得他們真的有學會母語了嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":16369.927,"end":16382.511,"text":"以這個成效而言跟文報告我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準好那怎麼做就剛才有幾個文給我10秒鐘20秒20秒第一個我覺得像剛剛那個失字的問題以原名為例"},{"start":16388.052,"end":16402.653,"text":"最近我們在處理他證照到底要不要能夠到中高級他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的、適任的實資這一個很快在一兩個月內會比較大的進展這是原名的部分以客語的部分"},{"start":16403.474,"end":16427.624,"text":"剛才有提到有幾個課語重點的學校他應該要管制他在11期學年的要專任師資這件事情我們有一套的這個做法但因為時間還沒到從今天看到那個效果有慢慢出來第一個師資部分第二個教材部分不管科委員所提以及我自己今天有帶那個課語的教材來我個人覺得可能我們再跟相關的單位再去做一些處理第三個排課的部分"},{"start":16429.125,"end":16450.421,"text":"可能在師資如果更廣泛的開開來之後才有可能去回答這個問題所以師資蠻元素的蠻源頭的所以以上是三點報告你都知道問題啦其實我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天我為了要來跟你質詢問了非常多的意見沒有一個說這個母語推廣的好話真的啦"},{"start":16454.52,"end":16477.194,"text":"大家都講說做這個事情目前都看不到任何的效益啊我覺得這樣就是很悲哀你知道嗎就是說大家認為這個事情應該做可是政策的推動是到了末端大家全部都不接受你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機嘛所以每一個人都覺得說我就應付就好因為既然課綱有這樣規定那我就做啊"},{"start":16477.794,"end":16493.94,"text":"然後我要老師我找不到那就視訊啊不然就是大家就閩南語的學生去原住民的學生去學閩南語啊對不對這個你就為了做而做嘛所以我真的建議啦因為你去找校長問你去找老師問沒有人會跟你說實話啦"},{"start":16495.424,"end":16508.269,"text":"每一個人跟我講說這個地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用不要講我講的都說不要講我講的但實際上就是這樣我要說新的文化部部長你作為一個母語的推廣的組織機關聽到我反應這樣心聲你的感覺怎麼樣"},{"start":16512.779,"end":16534.041,"text":"的確是我覺得整個語言的發展是跟當時的環境還有父母親的觀念還有學校的執行能力有關就他們執行的好跟不好跟整個父母親因為這個是一個很重要的議題可能隨時大家就要來這邊再討論一次那下一次來的時候你覺得可以改進哪些地方"},{"start":16535.745,"end":16561.067,"text":"剛剛講到因為有一部分屬於教育部不能夠做的比如說在學校推動的時候我們文化部是沒辦法介入的父母性的觀念文化部也沒辦法介入那誰可以 父母性的觀念誰可以介入我盡我的責任在文化這一塊如果最後的我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗因為父母沒有理由配合你們做這些事情"},{"start":16562.444,"end":16588.744,"text":"不然的話就可以仿照國外的做法有一些國家直接把預算補助給父母比如說新住民 舉例來講 新住民 越南的新住民政府就 他在家裡面 他在學校裡面學一個禮拜一堂的越南話回到家父母都不講越南話 他學不會 沒有這個環境那不如就補助給家庭 跟他講說以後你是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話好像 我好像印象中有國外是採取這樣的做法"},{"start":16589.324,"end":16605.751,"text":"那個文化部是負責臺語我們就有臺語家庭企劃對 也可以考慮這樣做啦不然錢扎下去用那麼多人力物力其實你也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間嘛但如果都達不到效果我覺得非常可惜"},{"start":16606.571,"end":16622.143,"text":"大家不要粉飾太平第二個是教材的問題因為我也有得到很多家長反應很多家長就說叫我去看他們的台語教材說他們都念不出來比如說我們溫刀溫刀就寫成晚刀然後什麼打瞌睡叫濁閨"},{"start":16630.153,"end":16654.698,"text":"這個書長還是部長唸一下部長你文化涵養比較高你唸一下這段好不好金載日拍...我沒辦法唸這個你唸一下啦金載日什麼我沒辦法請這個比較懂台語的來唸你唸一下這是一個已經非常研究他已經是很深入在研究臺語文化的人寫出來的文章"},{"start":16656.591,"end":16677.183,"text":"在學校叫學生唸,每一個學生唸出來,你唸一下試圖唸一下,這不是找你麻煩,這就是大家很努力寫出來的東西我們就去教他的阿里山森林遊樂圈,七頭兩天大家說他已經很久不去寫,陣情洶洶"},{"start":16680.981,"end":16708.796,"text":"讓他選擇我們最少會聽﹖吃醉、愛金、安白﹖給大家大肝、枸杞、赤頭、敬拜你算是蠻強的算很厲害啦,因為很多人都挑戰失敗很多人挑戰失敗那其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題啦教育部編的《台語辭典》也真的是有問題啦四季怎麼講"},{"start":16713.301,"end":16740.191,"text":"四季四季對我知道那你中文是怎麼寫中文怎麼寫啊我沒看到耶怎麼寫我不知道乾淨的中文是什麼清氣中文是什麼中文乾淨他寫親氣啦我的房間不時容真親氣啦這是書寫啦他一直這樣講沒錯但是你用這個當作音譯的話念起來很奇怪"},{"start":16742.001,"end":16757.495,"text":"以前是用羅馬拼音嘛,用什麼,對不對,台文,台羅拼音嘛,現在是用中文去音譯嘛。所以,很多家長都,他說你叫我啦,去念小朋友的台語課本啊,說你念念看,你念出來念不出來。我說我念不出來啊。"},{"start":16761.785,"end":16785.19,"text":"我們在場的官員是因為你本來就很有研究你唸得出來一般對台語不了解的唸得出來嗎部長剛剛就唸不出來啊所以我覺得說未來若成立這個國家語言發展的東西可不可以把教材也編一下不見得一定要用這種方式嘛採取多元的教學啊唱歌啊或者是用一些比較大家習慣的語言的方式切入啊語言是生活的東西嘛"},{"start":16786.03,"end":16800.392,"text":"是不是可以在教材上面也可以研發出一個比較適合大家推廣母語的教材那這個我知道是應該是屬於國家屬的還是屬於文化部還是屬於國家語言未來的國家語言發展中心"},{"start":16802.309,"end":16821.947,"text":"在教材的這個運用上一個是教材一個還有其他的領域包含像生活中常見到的影片、廣告或是各種的素材在老師在運用上都可以靈活的來予以處理那這一些運用的教學方法"},{"start":16822.227,"end":16833.695,"text":"﹗"},{"start":16838.241,"end":16863.506,"text":"謝謝,謝謝葉元芝委員部長、署長請回我們接下來請黃婕、黃婕、黃婕委員不在我們請何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在我們請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在我們請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在我們請游浩委員、游浩、游浩委員不在我們請謝伊鳳"},{"start":16866.667,"end":16888.878,"text":"謝依鳳委員不在好,我們今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另外有黃仁委員陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":16890.078,"end":16900.928,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分,請相關機關競訴以書面答覆。報告委員會,今天議程處理完畢,現在散會,謝謝各位。"},{"start":16929.532,"end":16929.712,"text":"拜拜!"}]}},{"id":"15989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15989","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854f41088fe7fdcd9e7aa87ef5e5fc7f973be8d109af184be4ec1c4ff57a177e545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-06T08:31:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:37:00+08:00","duration":14760,"影片長度":"04:06:00","委員發言時間":"08:31:00 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84萬噸其實這個就進入到我們的100多個掩埋場不是垃圾山是暫存的掩埋場來處理"},{"start":1972.546,"end":1994.226,"text":"這個部分因為我們目前我們的焚化爐正在整改當中所以它的量不大夠所以我們會持續的來進行那另外一個就是事業廢棄物它其實因為我們這幾年臺商回流還有經濟情勢轉好其實也在增加當中但是這個算法也有一點不一樣包含每年每年的這個企業的增長那目前我們對於廢棄物的產到人量"},{"start":1995.147,"end":2022.853,"text":"現在正在進行這24個場要申請整改當中那也會有一些新的場正在進行所以我們未來呢現在我們的廢棄物的燃燒量是681萬噸一年那未來呢到116年會到700萬噸所以剛剛那個垃圾量會逐年的逐年的應該就會顯著的一個地點等到我們在116年這逐年的會整改完成好那各位委員最關心的SRF也跟大院報告我上任之後這幾個幾"},{"start":2024.133,"end":2040.541,"text":"這一個月其實都有很認真的去關注這個議題我也去看了SFR場其實有蠻多的一個問題我坦誠有蠻多的問題會出現所以我們現在要從源頭包含這個分裝甚至到最後如何去使用甚至空汙的改善"},{"start":2041.081,"end":2062.302,"text":"我們會成立一個體檢小組會體檢小組全面的體檢甚至我們也必須很負責的跟業者組成一個聯盟來幫助他們可以正常的發展因為從減碳的觀點來看的話SRF我認為不應該汙名化我們要把它很好的發展來進行所以另外一個問題的挑戰我們大概要翻轉思維減少碳排提升韌性妥善的處理"},{"start":2062.822,"end":2083.313,"text":"其他政策的部分我就很快的跟大家報告大概我們會用資源零廢棄的角度來看我們行政院也通過了過去這幾年的計畫我們施政組還用三大循環例如說綠色設計能資源循環還有廢棄物管理的方式來進行我們工作上當然要永續的產品包含綠色設計循環採購、源頭減量、資訊揭露還有延長使用"},{"start":2086.095,"end":2103.326,"text":"我舉例像這個回收的分類分流現在已經做得非常好了還有可以再增強的地方那另外一個四大物料的循環也是一樣那我們會有一個資源的循環雲這個資源的循環雲就把各種的資料可以更順利的在一起以前這個算法可能比較粗糙現在會在一個大平台上面"},{"start":2103.726,"end":2124.041,"text":"所以這個以生物質為例我們就可以知道很動態的知道說我們一年的垃圾量或流逃到那裡去了還有一個就考量到廢棄物量的平衡跟管理這個就是需要我們整體的來做一些營運那這個部分還有一些新興的很難例如說實面的問題實面的問題也是必須我們去處理的我們每年大概有投入4億多來處理實面的一個問題那最後我給大家報告"},{"start":2127.383,"end":2146.213,"text":"就是我未來的中長期的一個目標再給我20秒的時間未來中長期的目標大概短期的大概3個月內我們會提出一個SRF的產業的體檢然後我們希望在短期就有一個跟產業一起來發展來把這個制度化中長期希望年底之前"},{"start":2146.653,"end":2161.986,"text":"到明年可以年底之前我們希望有一個資源循環促進法的草案年底可以公告然後長期來看的話當然要把資源循環零廢棄甚至呢我們用資源循環促進法的這個法律的精神能夠達成這個資源能夠更有效的運用以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2166.479,"end":2190.269,"text":"好謝謝彭部長的報告那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始巡打好做一下宣告本會委員巡打時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案"},{"start":2194.951,"end":2219.869,"text":"現在請登記第一位委員盧憲一委員發言主席有請部長請彭部長盧委員早彭部長早安早安我想先問一個問題就是我們目前國內合法的BOT的水利電廠有哪些"},{"start":2222.16,"end":2247.407,"text":"我所知道的有一個民間的水利電廠還有幾個我比較熟悉的是那個那我在這個上個月的5月20號去了花蓮濁西因為那邊的鄉親跟我說他們的環評的問題還有一些部落同意的問題所以我去看了一下所以當時的現場是這樣的一個環境這是他們的那個太平村旁邊那個河流第二張"},{"start":2249.09,"end":2254.983,"text":"那我想知道說因為他認為他的主要的正義點是這樣他在1999年"},{"start":2256.889,"end":2283.849,"text":"完成了環境評估然後到現在已經2024年了那麼多年了都還沒有動工那他後來在根據16支一條的那個三年入內沒有開工的話他必須做環差那也就是說他2007年有補助那到現在2007年到現在2024年也過了十幾年的時間所以我希望我想說你對這個部分有什麼看法"},{"start":2285.431,"end":2312.712,"text":"報告委員這部分其實依照目前我們的環境影響評估法他是還是可以繼續進行但是我們有考量到這個相關很多包含了環團的一個建議應該有再次或提出這個環差分析的這個機制所以我們會把這個情況研議在適當時機來修法來修這件事情我們知道1999年到現在經歷了至少有一次的莫拉克最近的一個大地震花蓮市地震帶"},{"start":2313.593,"end":2339.626,"text":"那如果說是每三年就三年內完成環差然後就終生適用一次使用永遠適用那認為說這樣會不會不合理啊這個地方是不是有需要修改的地方你認為呢對這個的確是如果以這個環團的這個建議我個人非常贊同但是目前環境影響評估法的確是適用的所以我們的確我在下半年會有一個環境影響評估的總體檢我們會把這個納入考慮"},{"start":2341.807,"end":2363.375,"text":"資商同意的部分因為他本身是一個濁西鄉的一個資商同意結果不是這個鄰近村莊或者是有關係的村莊他也做了資商同意我覺得有必要做到全鄉的資商同意嗎基本上還是要這個可以請我們要看原鄉可不可以請我們這個市長來"},{"start":2365.441,"end":2388.658,"text":"好謝謝委員那這個部分還是要看那個原住民基本法裡面的規範那我意思是因為它本身是狹長型的一個鄉可能從前面到後面的20幾將近30公里可是真正影響的是那兩個村莊應該是只做這兩個村莊而不是做全鄉的不是嗎如果說有相對或者說以後有這樣的類似的狀況是以地緣性來看可以嗎"},{"start":2390.131,"end":2409.08,"text":"這個部分我們來跟原住民委員會來做一個恰商看看就是說有關於諮商的那個範圍這個部分能不能做一些的一個調整所以我想知道說這個三年的這個16之一條的這個條款然後他是利用這個環差來通過嗎以後他還是可以繼續動工嗎"},{"start":2410.233,"end":2429.605,"text":"按照目前的法令的確是但是我覺得委員提到的意見非常好那我們因為其實這個不是只有您也環團也跟我們提出這樣的看法所以我們年底呢會有一個我知道他沒有上法院也敗訴了對對對只是我還是要提出跟你們提出地方的一個意見第二個就是關於我們原住民前幾天"},{"start":2430.385,"end":2431.465,"text":"推動原住民森林探會"},{"start":2447.657,"end":2471.51,"text":"那我們是2050年進領嘛在下一頁那我們在氣候編簽因應法的第5條裡面有提到原住民族的權益在第8款會推動自然碳會政府應該與原住民族共同推動及管理原住民族地區之自然碳會該區域內新增碳會的相關權益原住民族共享那我在"},{"start":2472.831,"end":2479.237,"text":"在一公頃6萬塊這個在說廣泛討論的時候提到一個數據就是2001年我們Dr."},{"start":2479.237,"end":2497.734,"text":"Pierce在英國倫敦的學院他當時是所謂的環境經濟學家他說原始領的一個他那時候的價值是這樣大概在2000美金一公頃也就是6萬塊台幣這是2001年所以我是用這樣的一個"},{"start":2498.455,"end":2499.597,"text":"數據來提每公頃6萬塊的數據我們看下一頁"},{"start":2504.54,"end":2531.592,"text":"那未來這個探權因為我們現在才剛剛起步去年的8月7日才揭牌那這個探權交易所裡面我們沒有所謂的原住民的人員在裡面當所謂的一個諮詢委員希望無論是借期或者說希望借期在開會的時候能不能納入我們原住民的代表在裡面因為我們原住民目前有27萬大概27萬公頃的原住民保留地現在"},{"start":2533.172,"end":2546.577,"text":"申請到淨化補償大概7.2萬公頃所以這個部分在探選的一個比例上面你的看法是怎麼樣好,報告委員這個問題我其實在我們內閣會議的時候我有跟原住民委員會的主委提到這個問題"},{"start":2547.577,"end":2568.716,"text":"因為現在這個國有地其實要算是探權的部分真的有點困難所以這個要有一些解釋還有突破那我有跟他說因為在全球氣候會議裡面原住民都扮演一個很重要的角色所以我也特別跟他有提到說我們是不是共同來跨部會來商量這個問題那另外這個森林的探會涉及到農業部"},{"start":2569.717,"end":2596.083,"text":"的認定跟我們環境部的許可所以這個部分我們的確會跨部會包含了原住民委員會還有這個農業部還有環境部三個部會會來一起來處理那你覺得未來我們主委員有機會從中分享他的利益嗎我認為長期來看這個是的確要考量到原住民因為原住民是公平正義但是以現有的法規在國有地要取得探權的部分的確是非常困難的"},{"start":2597.137,"end":2607.712,"text":"目前的可信性不高目前不高而且我們必須要從探權的經驗但是如果說可以從保護這個國有的森林地的角度來看的話或許可以找到一些機會這個我絕對會來想辦法來解決這個事情"},{"start":2612.217,"end":2627.212,"text":"我研究了一下因為這個非常難懂準備期注冊申請階段到額度申請階段這個就一般人來看你認為我們在原住民鄉這個取得的機制是成本過高還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":2628.454,"end":2654.294,"text":"通常這個現實上現在來看的話大概100公頃的地才有他所謂的探全的經濟的價值100公頃而且這個土地呢要過去是被破壞的我們把它富裕起來所以這的確是有一定的難度所以但是呢這個我覺得目前最麻煩的就是認定上的問題所以這個方法學要我們農業部跟這個環境部一起來制定這個方法學"},{"start":2654.594,"end":2657.819,"text":"我想請教部長說什麼時候可以開始交易呢?"},{"start":2658.699,"end":2684.503,"text":"目前在以現在的這個制度上農業森林碳會的過的案件我們環境部在氣候署裡面還不多所以我們現在我是有跟那個農業部長來討論這個問題希望我們可以加快彼此的審查的一個速度所以目前還沒有開始交易森林碳會我們臺灣自己本地的森林碳會目前還沒有近期最快是什麼時候可以"},{"start":2685.61,"end":2685.77,"text":"謝謝盧憲宜委員的發言"},{"start":2713.752,"end":2715.753,"text":"接下來請陳昭智委員發言。好,有請部長。請彭部長。"},{"start":2728.802,"end":2752.25,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長我在這個廢棄物管理部分是我非常關心的一個議題之一那部長上週的業務報告也有提到這個失業廢棄物的管理計畫那近年4月我在質詢前部長的時候那環管署署長曾經表示末端垃圾的這個處理經費預算是相對高了很多大概都是幾倍那這是因為將部分的經費花在這個焚化爐的這個整改"},{"start":2755.271,"end":2779.455,"text":"還有這個掩埋場的加強措施言下之意今年的垃圾處理量恐怕量能恐怕會出現更多的堆積所以我想請問部長到目前為止這些末端經費使用的加強措施究竟為了掩埋場帶來了什麼的效益那為什麼新竹蜂箱這個蜂箱5年內燒了快70次那還是沒看到掩埋場的這個效果"},{"start":2781.475,"end":2808.1,"text":"報告委員 這個第一個現在我們的民眾的處理垃圾的方式有時候也會把打火機各種易燃物品在垃圾裡面其實也會造成這個垃圾更容易易燃那第二個是過去對於這個掩埋場的管理跟處置我們其實環境部特別針對這個部分有加強的監控還有包含了早氣等等的這個處理所以現在的其實未來在這個半年一年中其實應該會降低大幅度的這個火災的機會"},{"start":2809.88,"end":2812.023,"text":"廢棄物清除在清除處理機構許可管理辦法當中徵涉一項,也賣場應該設有紅外線熱像系統"},{"start":2830.123,"end":2833.565,"text":"我們透過這個採購紅外線偵測儀來監控當超過溫度的時候他會灑水降溫那來降低整個掩埋場這個發生大火的一個風險有想過嗎好對謝謝委員關係其實我們今年已經有在補助了有在進行當中"},{"start":2846.434,"end":2864.967,"text":"已經開始進行這件事情?對,你要不要來報告一下因為發生火災的次數實在太多了是的,感謝委員關心新豐野霾場他新豐野霾場主要的燃燒地點是在他堆置那個雜木的地方幾乎都在燒那個地方所以我們一直"},{"start":2865.808,"end":2882.183,"text":"跟這個信族縣來商討這個地方是不是要做好掩埋跟早去蒐集另外委員關心的這個紅外線這個部分我們也一律補助還有消防水泡至少先從高風險或是經常在燒火的地方來先開始"},{"start":2882.603,"end":2883.044,"text":"是是是是"},{"start":2898.723,"end":2925.125,"text":"中科資源再生中心跟簽約設施新設這兩項管理部門來看其實對2024年整體的這個失業廢棄管理的成效是有限所以我也非常擔憂就是說臺灣的這個垃圾掩埋場已經趨於飽和了那整個這個焚化爐借期老實說借零超零的都有嘛就是我們預計使用的一些整改的情形下想請問部長今年的垃圾堆積量是不是還是一樣"},{"start":2925.785,"end":2951.674,"text":"好可能壓下來好報告委員其實現在是84萬噸那再分散在107個這個暫置的掩埋場裡面那那個以後都會拿去燈化爐燒的那目前還有350萬噸的空間分散在107 裡面暫置場也有暫置場問題請部長看左邊這張圖下一張這個民團實力走訪他把台灣本島垃圾暫置場大致點出來了你可以看到這雲嘉南南投台東"},{"start":2952.754,"end":2973.638,"text":"每個縣市平均超過10個戰車場那這些戰車場大部分是在掩埋場跟清潔處的附近那這些密集的縣市周圍事實上缺乏完整的垃圾管理措施或是調度出的問題所以導致垃圾一直堆製完全沒有辦法消耗掉那薛前部長說過公有民營的焚化爐的處理事業廢棄物那個單價比較高"},{"start":2980.879,"end":2993.285,"text":"所以我認為垃圾堆積的原因還是有事業廢棄物會排擠家戶垃圾處理的可能性所以第一個我想問部長這些佔據場越來越多不就是這個原因嗎?"},{"start":2994.498,"end":3021.465,"text":"對其實這個事業廢棄物是佔了大概180萬噸不是最主要的還是屬於這個我們這個焚化爐它過去整改的量不夠但是目前來看的話比去年好現在已經681萬噸了增加了30萬噸未來會到700萬噸所以這個的消化會逐步的消化我們的這個暫存的量那剛剛委員提到的說垃圾的這個掩埋場的管理像這個部分我們會加強來處理那我們也編例了相關的大概有兩億多的經費來處理這個這些事情"},{"start":3023.986,"end":3046.961,"text":"那部長你對於這個戰車廠垃圾有處理的規劃嗎?戰車廠的部分還是就任由他放著?報告委員其實我早上還在跟我們署長在討論我們到底什麼時候可以把戰車廠能夠降到去化掉那這個還要幾年的時間因為這個戰車廠分散到各個縣市那各個縣市其實也是必須學習說有些縣市不願意幫別的縣市燒"},{"start":3047.722,"end":3075.036,"text":"那這個暫時的時程可能是不是請我也有機會瞭解一下如果你沒有定出來我們正在討論當中但是這個時間點可能還要再延商一下下那部長長期看起來你盧列的管理方針能夠有效管理的事業廢棄物當然是好的可以肯定那將來好像也會設跨部門的跨部門的合作來興建相關措施可是我們還有兩年的這個過渡期間第一個"},{"start":3075.996,"end":3104.088,"text":"本席認為是不是應該將更多的資源投注在源頭的管理來緩減堆積的速度?部長您同意這樣看法嗎?同意 因為貴部聽說也已經補助了各縣市有長達推動半年以上42個減速市場那另外再請教貴部去年減速計畫的數據化的效益如何呢?就是減速化的成果如何呢?"},{"start":3105.048,"end":3117.237,"text":"請我們署長來報告,謝謝我們是就4個主要的項目,包括過用塑膠袋、吸管、飲料杯那像過用塑膠袋我們大概實施之後大概是減量了大概一半,就是一年有減少110個"},{"start":3119.404,"end":3125.49,"text":"可是部長你來看我下面這張圖左邊這張圖是我之前質詢用的曾經提到左邊這張圖塑膠袋這個是來自經濟部的資料塑膠袋在10年成長14.4%塑膠參與成長了68.7%但是今天的報告中我想請教部長那這個你右邊這張圖就是剛剛這個市長來報告的"},{"start":3143.647,"end":3149.111,"text":"那這個差很大欸怎麼辦這個包括這個購物用的垃圾他減了50%那那個免洗餐具減了46%飲料杯減了17%還有這個"},{"start":3156.564,"end":3161.128,"text":"因為這兩個資訊都不攏嘛你看一下那個我這個那個投影片上都不攏欸怎麼辦"},{"start":3175.58,"end":3200.653,"text":"跟委員報告就是經濟部這個呢他是包括我們整個產業還有生活面所以說像我們工廠使用這些袋模類都包括在內那右邊這個是我們就生活面裡面大家民眾消費量最多最可以減少的幾個主要項目來做統計購物袋也不夠啊你說處理垃圾錢就你只選擇購物用的垃圾袋好像這個分母也不太正確"},{"start":3203.7,"end":3218.511,"text":"這個的確齁,例如說像我們也跟委員報告我發現就是說我們只要推動這個要減塑這個媒體就會說要多生收然後就引發很大的反彈所以我們現在想要用別的方式來推動更好的這種減塑的文化啦"},{"start":3219.244,"end":3220.884,"text":"謝謝陳昭芝委員的發言接下來請林月晴委員發言"},{"start":3250.518,"end":3251.48,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請我們的部長"},{"start":3255.704,"end":3281.176,"text":"議員早部長早我又看過你針對於我們的廢棄物的報告寫的非常詳細方法也很多可是我4月的時候質詢的時候我就有提到說如果沒有面對問題的核心的話再多的方法也是沒有用所以應該要去訂定目標甚至要解決的問題是什麼甚至到底這個廢棄物你要減量多少所以今天就一一來跟部長這邊探討一些相關的問題"},{"start":3282.591,"end":3300.937,"text":"因為廢棄物核心問題到底我們環境部掌握到了嗎?為什麼?我想部長我相信你跟我都非常同意要處理很多政策除了法制以外事實上要訂出目標手段更為重要那上個會期事實上已經通過了我們的"},{"start":3301.417,"end":3317.527,"text":"期後變遷因應法也明確定出檢探目標與方法入境環境部後來也陸續公布執法本席希望環境部是不是也針對廢棄物要有一定積極的態度"},{"start":3319.164,"end":3347.483,"text":"所以廢棄物的處理希望你能夠做到事實上是源頭管理另外地方政府跟居民比較頭痛的垃圾戰爭這個問題的話也希望能夠要做好社會溝通那我們就來看就是說在我上次質詢完沒多久我們的那個環境資訊中心就報導說我們8年來國人的垃圾是越減越多"},{"start":3348.303,"end":3369.134,"text":"所以部長是不是可以有幾點跟我們說明一下第一個國人人口進來是越來越少那怎麼會熱色越來越好問題到底出在哪裡這是想說請部長可不可以做一個說明報告委員兩個部分一個是算法的問題就是說我們有統計的現在我們的整一次環境"},{"start":3369.554,"end":3369.914,"text":"部長已經掌握到問題的話"},{"start":3393.533,"end":3411.831,"text":"未來就是看你的那個解方因為現在疫情已經是解封的狀態那第二個垃圾減量政策過去重點都花在末端處理那我們的政策方向是否有錯誤為什麼因為垃圾越減越多啊那你現在一直在花錢在處理末端那這個政策是不是有錯誤"},{"start":3412.832,"end":3437.516,"text":"其實現在的資源循環的比例也顯著的增多啦齁那所以剛剛講過一邊增長一邊下降那我們未來呢會如果這個資源循環促進法我們希望在年底能夠提出來之後應該可以有效整合各個部分因為其實也報告委員說我們所有的資源齁所有的資源其實掌握在我們的各個政府在管理的項目裡面所以我們環境部很積極的希望能夠推出這個資源循環促進法"},{"start":3437.876,"end":3460.156,"text":"希望在年底能夠草案能夠先預告出來所以如果這個法案通過的話更有效去把各種的資源合在一起這更能夠有效的來管理好那希望這個法趕快在年底的時候可以送出那部長再問你就是說因為院長也提到老問題要找新方法新問題要找好方法"},{"start":3460.536,"end":3484.539,"text":"所以你有沒有想到未來整個垃圾處理量的這個有沒有好的方法?好,報告委員我有去看了一些SRF或是一些垃圾廠的確環境條件沒有那麼好所以我有特別跟我們的同仁討論到一個議題就是說我們過去環保署是比較管制的角度我們現在是環境部了所以我們應該把這個所謂的業界在一起"},{"start":3484.639,"end":3514.06,"text":"我們過去想到業界可能是我們的工業局或是經濟部的事情但是我們現在是部了所以我們如何把我們相關的資源循環的相關的產業能夠聚集在一起幫助他們也解決我們的問題所以我目前希望說有不一樣的讓他們籌組一個聯盟的方式把一些產官學員能夠在一個平台裡面來討論這個事情更明確之後我希望有一個半年的時間然後我們到大院說把這個草案送到這個看能不能在年底的時候能夠預告出來"},{"start":3514.981,"end":3533.56,"text":"這個會更周圍一點這樣子表示也有在做社會溝通要社會溝通所以部長就要來我要為地方的百姓發聲我們的熱色我們的戰事場問題已經困擾百姓非常久了雖然我是不分區的立委可是我有任養"},{"start":3534.121,"end":3552.619,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":3553.53,"end":3582.315,"text":"越過了護欄然後呢就有隨時有倒塌的危險那就可能會產生居民甚至用路人的安危那第二個就是那個戰事產生這樣子的惡臭的問題有沒有想辦法想辦法去解決因為有時候甚至會對於造成臨近的集水區學校居民他們對於這樣的一個困擾都很常時候要跟市府去做溝通才有下一個動作那第三個"},{"start":3583.228,"end":3600.436,"text":"市長剛剛陳道志委員也提到嘛就是火災這個這件事情在桃園的我們的眼海上也常常發生火災已經是見怪不怪了可是造成空氣汙染我比較擔心的是耳哨因為距離學校蠻近的那這大家都變孩子都要上課戴口罩"},{"start":3601.175,"end":3622.328,"text":"那所以去年桃園大塊西掩埋場為例的話火災影響到周邊數十間學校所以我不知道有沒有機會到時候是不是也歡迎彭部長跟我一起到我的壬陽的選區去走走但我不是要去看棒球也不是要去看籃球我希望的是能夠來看到到底掩埋場"},{"start":3622.688,"end":3641.63,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3641.69,"end":3645.474,"text":"對孩子的健康是有疑慮的所以問部長說你有沒有針對這個有統籌的管理辦法嗎未來退場機制是什麼"},{"start":3666.878,"end":3686.998,"text":"目前就是等到我們這個焚化爐整改上來之後還有新的上來之後這個就會陸續的去化當中那委員提到的問題我們現在正在有幾個特別的案例我們正在處理例如說他離水源地我們會特別的妥善來處理但你看到那個火災燒的惡臭的其實已經都在改善當中了"},{"start":3687.458,"end":3716.085,"text":"好我們希望也要持續因為要必將解決因為畢竟跟學校這麼有接近的話事實上對孩子的健康我是非常關心的那可是垃圾問題不是民不自身問題有可能是政治問題因為目前就在開打那個垃圾大戰垃圾擱置呢焚燒還有運送都有可能是各縣市之間的利益交換可是人民常常是不知情不知不覺用了"},{"start":3716.732,"end":3719.894,"text":"目前全台這些跨縣市的垃圾問題環境部的角色是什麼因為中央畢竟你還是要給地方一些政策方向然後讓他們可以去做所以有沒有做能量"},{"start":3739.95,"end":3740.05,"text":"綜合調度"},{"start":3756.128,"end":3769.677,"text":"是不是也可以給我們更完整的那個書面資料再來就是要跟部長去討論預算問題也就是從環談的研究來看環境部在廢棄物末端處理要花將近17.7億"},{"start":3771.298,"end":3794.001,"text":"就反而是對比源頭管理我們都一直在講源頭管理很重要只有只花0.9億那兩者相差了22倍那可是連環境部都自己報告都強調要做好源頭管理的話那這顯然說的跟做的好像有點落差所以部長你剛上任馬上就要遇到那個編列預算了那請問目前編列預算怎麼調整明年的源頭管理重點做什麼"},{"start":3795.608,"end":3812.32,"text":"請我們署長來報告這個源頭管理是是是那各位報告那我們現在源頭管理呢我們會有在這個綠色設計循環採購都有一些工作的推動那特別是說我們還要去做一些資源回收讓這個我們的產業就是可以建立那個商業模式"},{"start":3812.813,"end":3837.463,"text":"那這邊都有一些相關的人員還有經費來投入其實報告委員我們那個前兩天有一個新聞稿就是我們請他們算出來我們的資源循環的相關的產業1400億所以我們會用公司協力的方式來推動這些事情那當然啦過去的這個源頭的費用是都是宣導做這個事情不夠啦那我會逐步的來調整這件事情好那在環部部長這邊真的要多"},{"start":3838.308,"end":3838.328,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3866.828,"end":3883.554,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員的發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言謝謝主席各位委員各位官員早安我也想請部長請彭部長"},{"start":3886.211,"end":3906.142,"text":"謝謝部長剛剛有提到小朋友對於空污這樣子事關重大的影響那身為不孕症醫師那同時我也是不孕症病人其實今年最新的期刊有顯示說空污也嚴重的影響不孕症以及各種癌症這個再提供給您"},{"start":3908.203,"end":3928.728,"text":"昨天6月5日是世界環境日,我也想請問一下部長,環境部有什麼重要的宣誓嗎?我們要減少淹地,全國減淹地的大聯盟成立。關於這樣子,你們會不會覺得很適合跟衛福部一起做配合?有昨天衛福部的賈淑莉副署長有來。"},{"start":3930.243,"end":3957.999,"text":"對但是我們希望更多啦昨天我們是跟文化部合作那未來應該會跟衛福部合作好所以昨天是世界環境日那前天呢6月4號的時候環境部發了一則臉書表示會持續協助地方政府妥善的處理垃圾問題可是我覺得很疑惑因為你的標題是寫焚化為主掩埋為輔作為這樣子的slogan"},{"start":3958.8,"end":3967.4,"text":"剛剛已經有多位委員反映空污的問題了所以為什麼我們還要再把焚化為主的這件事情特別來做強調呢?"},{"start":3968.919,"end":3994.453,"text":"這個其實是針對我們資源回收完的沒有辦法變成回收的這個所謂的垃圾去做焚化的處理所以大概就是一年大概是600多萬噸但源頭的話剛也提到了其實我們減少垃圾會遠比後面的處理還要重要對吧所以我們回收的比例其實本來就很高這只是真的沒有辦法回收之後只好當成焚化來處理"},{"start":3995.934,"end":4015.192,"text":"但我覺得這個slogan如果可以給一點建議的話當然還是可以再從源頭管理才是最主要的接下來我們才是做分化為主掩埋為輔嘛那我們提到當然今天我們也討論廢棄物可是我們從100年到最新的112年全國一般的廢棄物"},{"start":4019.435,"end":4045.329,"text":"總生產量是每年都在創新高所以平均每人每日的一般廢棄物產生量從0.8到現在的1.359到底剛剛有講到說我們的這個源頭管理你想要跟很多協力廠商做配合等等的所以從100年到112年這樣子的源頭管理我們的成效到底如何"},{"start":4046.689,"end":4069.181,"text":"問題是出在哪裡因為反而是年年都在增加報告委員其實這裡面你可以看得出來資源的垃圾量就回收完了之後也都增加很多然後一般垃圾量呢也在增加其實最主要是一般垃圾量其實就是說我們國人習慣的改變當然我不能推給這個國人什麼習慣改變其實算法是一個最主要是哪一個習慣在改變您覺得網購"},{"start":4071.023,"end":4099.785,"text":"網購喔網購所以增加的是包裝但是其實包裝外送等等的生活型態的這種改變外食的這個改變在這幾年改的特別的嚴重但是其實最大的一個還是所謂算法的改變所以委員包括委員其實這裡面的包含我們把原來齁把一般公司的這個員工的這個廢棄物就員工造成的吃飯的造成的以前都是算的失業廢棄物現在算成我們一般廢棄物算進來了然後還有我們把包含了這個"},{"start":4100.405,"end":4126.581,"text":"可是你不管是一般廢棄物或是各種廢棄物都是升高啊?基本上我們以前沒有算成我們的所以我們把那個算進來我們算法算得更精準所以就升高了這個才是現實啦那也給您看一下齁因為0403地震的關係所以大家手機都有收到這個訊息大家都知道說我們的玉山變矮了變矮5公分這是一個地質的現象"},{"start":4127.441,"end":4153.874,"text":"但是呢這個就很多新聞標題是寫玉山變矮了可是各地的垃圾山反而一直在長高現在中南部是很嚴重剛剛也有委員提到因為有一些垃圾場是臨近於水源比如說雲林啊台南南投等等的還有可能會造成水源的污染請問部長對於這樣子有什麼解方或是想法嗎"},{"start":4154.914,"end":4178.08,"text":"委員有兩個一個是傳統的垃圾山我們傳統舊垃圾山現在大概處理的都有把它掩埋起來然後都有做一些處理當然還是有一些有問題啦我必須承認那但是這個委員剛剛這張圖是掩埋場就的佔治場等於是他還是在拿去燒的所以這個但是他這個處理的應該沒有很好他應該要把它打包起來不會有這種惡臭飄散或是火災啦"},{"start":4178.968,"end":4196.316,"text":"好那當然剛有提到說我們看到環境部2023年永續發展的目標自願檢視報告中短期的策略是2023到2027減量回收及資源循環推動計畫這個短期目標要怎麼樣做到減量回收因為"},{"start":4197.456,"end":4215.118,"text":"在上一任的部長呢他有做到說我們全台灣有42個市場有在推禁止用一次性的塑膠袋像這樣子的政策啦您會有想要把一些政策再做擴大或是延續把一些政策收起來嗎"},{"start":4216.244,"end":4238.911,"text":"報告委員不會的齁但是我也必須說我們環境部在過去在推動在大的賣場都很成功那個都要花錢買最後的理路就是市場但是市場跟每個民眾都有關所以我跟我同事討論之後其實大概我們希望用別的方式希望有文化改變的方式習慣的改變方式因為我們報告委員我們其實推的時候"},{"start":4239.491,"end":4254.566,"text":"很多媒體就會來說你看你看又要收錢了生活多麼不便我們買個菜買個魚都不能用塑膠袋我很不方便這個負面的聲音一直出來但是我們覺得說其實國外就是慢慢這樣在進行我們也沒有限制包含生鮮的部分還是可以用只不過要減量"},{"start":4256.208,"end":4269.58,"text":"這個其實您想您當初推就之前環境部當初推一次性就不提供餐具等等也是有非常多人抱怨但現在大家都已經習慣了所以其實部長您只要下定決心就可以了"},{"start":4270.253,"end":4285.965,"text":"那委員要支持我喔這個要大家一起來支持啦但因為這個我們有時候遭遇到大家的說啊我很不方便他只要訪問幾個婆婆媽媽說你以後市場沒有垃圾袋你怎麼塑膠袋你怎麼辦那這個負面的聲音就會湧到我們這邊來好我們會支持部長"},{"start":4287.106,"end":4302.481,"text":"這個是環境部小編我不知道這個數據當然我還會再詳查這個數據是哪裡來但是他說每年投入90億來做源頭管理跟資源回收可是呢這個綠色和平民團其實他也有去拜訪您"},{"start":4303.041,"end":4331.198,"text":"也有拜訪我們許許多多的委員他計算7年的平均在垃圾末端處理每年平均是17億可是源頭管理才0.8億竟然連1億都不到用在比如說之前環境部在推的就是署長也非常熟的淨線用一次性用品推廣循環杯等等其實源頭跟末端處理我們花的預算是整整差距22倍"},{"start":4332.779,"end":4352.665,"text":"所以這樣子的比重是不是應該要去做調整因為處理垃圾預算分配有問題嘛你源頭管理是不是應該要更加提高才對報委員這個0.81是我們環境部的預算那這個90億應該是包含了包含資源回收等等的包含基金的等等的預算所以我們資源回收一年是花89.2"},{"start":4355.067,"end":4369.249,"text":"對他是有那個根本報告就是他有信託基金跟肥額基金那我們現在就是有公告14項他進了處理業都說我們都會進行補貼好讓我們的塑膠瓶還有這個電器能夠回收是是是我覺得方向是對的那"},{"start":4370.41,"end":4395.422,"text":"最後我們也想問一下我們2050年淨零碳排入法是一個長久以來國發會幫我們制定的目標可是我們看數據30年以來我們從1992年的1.32億公噸碳排放一直到今天是2.75億噸根本是翻倍成長您對於2050淨零碳排的目標還樂觀嗎?"},{"start":4397.824,"end":4398.645,"text":"謝謝部長今天吃了誠實豆沙包"},{"start":4417.576,"end":4430.331,"text":"所以你勇於承擔很感動因為這件事情是要博人生活的改變所以我們包含對能源的概念的改變都要改變很大所以你會幫自己設定一點點短期的目標比如說我們可以稍微趨緩"},{"start":4432.193,"end":4432.573,"text":"我們需要這樣的產業"},{"start":4450.729,"end":4477.412,"text":"所以今天本席也提供您一個想法因為我們既臨轉型有12個關鍵的戰略其中一個是碳捕捉的技術利用跟封存而這一點冰島做得非常好因為他們一年可以移出36000噸的二氧化碳大約是等於8600輛車子的碳排所以當碳排是我們國家整個額外成本的時候補碳機就像我們的印鈔機一樣環境部是不是有想要加入這樣子"},{"start":4478.593,"end":4507.987,"text":"打造補碳國家隊然後來規劃投入自主的發展你有沒有這樣子的想法這個是我為了上一頁所以幫您一起想方法我們這個在全球都在關注這個碳補桌但是冰島它這個天然條件特別好水力特別好還有地熱所以它的電是排碳力很低的所以在臺灣做這個就完全不合因為我們的電排碳係數很高所以大家要一起努力"},{"start":4508.847,"end":4528.416,"text":"但是現在您對於這個中油啊臺電啊都已經投身這樣子的技術了我是很希望因為之前我們也互相質詢過這個光電板啊環評很多都已經落到經濟部在主導所以我當然也很希望支持部長在環境部的主導上也可以多一點"},{"start":4529.575,"end":4552.328,"text":"對,幫我委員這個其實我們會積極的來跳脫原來大家設定的環境部的角色我們主動的跟各部會來協調因為其實這方面您的專業知識一定是更豐富嘛您也應該要更投入相關研發技術補貼等等的對,這個主要是在國科會啦那我們會跟國科會有一個跨平台的小組來討論這個事情"},{"start":4553.909,"end":4574.257,"text":"最後稍微問一下很多民眾關心的議題因為碳費這個議題已經吵了很久但是定價一直都還沒有出來那我知道說第三次審議會你們有聊到你們最後的結論是說要自主管理或者是說你們給他定一個指定目標我看最後的會議記錄是這樣7月還會再開第4次的審議會"},{"start":4577.438,"end":4598.638,"text":"但是呢國際的航空組織ICAO他會想要定降低航空公司的淨零目標因為航空公司的碳排放在全球的排放量大約是2.1%所以許多國人因為他們會在鄰近的國家旅遊所以他們會很關心說這個您有沒有去"},{"start":4600.14,"end":4617.597,"text":"關切這個ICO他們大概制定的碳費會在多少那會不會影響到國人出遊的那個成本旅遊成本那個我們我們國籍的航空公司特別是有一家國籍航空公司他們就做得非常的認真他的已經"},{"start":4618.257,"end":4618.857,"text":"謝謝陳京輝委員的發言接下來請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":4657.762,"end":4677.136,"text":"好主席好我們有請我們彭部長請彭部長來邱委員早部長你好你是第二任的環境部長也是執行我們這次進行轉型碳費徵收的政策的一個部長所以產業在產業界"},{"start":4679.721,"end":4687.099,"text":"大家對你都有這個碳焦慮害怕你碳費定價真的從300元開始收取影響這個產業的生存"},{"start":4691.209,"end":4708.842,"text":"那還好本席看到部長已經公開表示希望一開始不要給企業太大的壓力那未來費率會斜率向上分階段調高費率本席非常肯定部長的這個務實的一個態度那麼"},{"start":4710.023,"end":4723.101,"text":"第4次的碳費審議會暫定在7月5日召開在這之前我還是要為產業請命就請教部長,碳費是目前方向是一公噸是要收300元嗎?"},{"start":4724.555,"end":4749.57,"text":"報告委員 這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對 因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我這邊有一張表請部長看一下"},{"start":4750.768,"end":4768.605,"text":"那是針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業以去年的碳排量來計算中鋼公司一年碳排量2200萬公噸就是要繳交60億的碳費那遠遠超出它稅前的盈餘46億元也就是說中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億"},{"start":4773.346,"end":4791.825,"text":"第二,我們看中時化原本稅前就虧損5.9億那再繳5億碳費他就加倍他就會虧到10億元左右那台數呢則要繳交高達98億元的碳費占去稅前的盈利的17%整體這個徵收的規模可能達到五六百億"},{"start":4796.649,"end":4815.176,"text":"請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫"},{"start":4816.016,"end":4839.101,"text":"所以如果依照我們現在來看這幾個企業像中鋼它就做得非常好如果依照它有自主減量計畫甚至也要考慮到它的高碳洩漏係數的話其實它不用講那麼高啦但是這個還是要碳費省營會決定就是說碳費不是只用一個碳費它的排碳量多少乘以一個價錢出來的結果因為我們擔心的是這樣就是說如果企業的這個部分如果真的這樣收的時候那"},{"start":4839.921,"end":4863.019,"text":"我們也要全門考量不要影響到民生因為有很多東西它是相關連帶的它如果企業是這樣它成本增加它就會把物價調漲那調漲對我們老百姓直接的影響這個可能部長也要把它考慮進去那當然部長您認為我們的碳費現在應該多少錢才合理"},{"start":4864.026,"end":4891.081,"text":"如果依照基本上還是要衡量這個是要碳費審議委員會來決定但是以目前全世界必須有幾個考量例如說像歐盟他的碳交易大概是70塊歐元現在的價格是70塊歐元左右然後在有些國家大概都是預期未來到2030到2040年可能會到100到200塊美元所以其實這些企業應該現在要趕快想辦法不是說我不准收這個費用"},{"start":4892.763,"end":4913.785,"text":"我跟部長報告就是說這個碳費啊審議小組這個決議我們大家都知道但是傳出來聲音非常多在之前的傳出每公噸大概300元也有人建議說500元的剛剛我們部長有提到歐盟的這個部分那其實我們仔細看了一下其實歐盟他是超出標準才課稅"},{"start":4915.326,"end":4935.2,"text":"所以他超出標準他們的科稅標準是針對每個產業前10%的這個企業的平均碳排量所以稅率看起來很高實際上卻只徵收超標的部分幾乎有九成是不用收費的而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作這個碳權的一個交易"},{"start":4936.561,"end":4957.236,"text":"我們再看新加坡他初期的碳費只收五塊錢美金日本也是收兩塊兩塊錢美金所以我們的十塊錢美金就是憑良心講我們這樣看起來是非常的高我在這邊建議我也聽到很多企業建議希望在這個費率希望能定在一百元以內"},{"start":4958.577,"end":4981.533,"text":"你認為有可能嗎?包括委員這些國家你列的這幾個國家你跟你前面那一張碳費的是衝突的所以我建議說我們一起可以把這個如何去計算那個方式搞懂因為很多的媒體他不是很懂啦所以搞懂是最主要的那第二件事情呢基本上的這些國家都有碳交易跟碳費或碳稅碳稅的兩個制度並行啦那我"},{"start":4982.353,"end":5002.522,"text":"未來呢這個環境部也會考量說按照國際的趨勢這個也是總統的政見我們有一個更好的更完善的我希望部長今天提這個當然就是希望部長能夠把這個東西當作非常重要的一個事情也希望我們的審議小組呢大家都能夠好好考量因為還沒訂我跟委員報告齁"},{"start":5003.442,"end":5028.784,"text":"五百多家企業裡面前面大概三四百家高科技業界他們都準備好了他們還在罵我們說收那麼低對他們國際競爭力不利所以希望高那至於說比較困難的這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作來能夠幫他們的忙順利的轉型所以不是說我們全部調低就好那我們也必須考量到我們國內的這個CPI這個不要讓這個綠色通膨快速的發生起來"},{"start":5029.384,"end":5048.748,"text":"但是綠色通膨呢依照全世界的這個情況我們還是必須要考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的這個優惠的費率那根據環境部的規劃企業適用於優惠的費率未來10年必須達到削減排飯量就是說鋼鐵業是25%大概25%水泥業是22.3%其他的行業42%也就是說"},{"start":5055.41,"end":5084.093,"text":"碳排量每年必須達到4.2左右才可以享有優惠的費率而這個我認為這個目標我跟部長講這個有點高因為我們目前以我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業比如說日月光控股臺達電還有聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級都拿到雙A級的但是4月初這個週刊的揭露即使是台塑集團這種減碳的策略都已經"},{"start":5085.114,"end":5095.888,"text":"都已經通過CDP的評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排的一個目標那我認為這個標準有點高啦既然剛開始"},{"start":5097.643,"end":5116.622,"text":"我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情我認為我們部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的一個門檻讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情委員的建議其實我們的概念還是一樣一開始低然後慢慢逐步的會升高這個是我們的目前的共識"},{"start":5117.583,"end":5139.327,"text":"當然我們就是希望這個碳費的徵收也好我們進行減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢那當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳不是賺錢沒錯這個希望政府能夠循序漸進然後慢慢的邁向這個經營轉型不要一下子讓企業生存不下去這也不是我們樂見的那另外第二個"},{"start":5142.668,"end":5153.056,"text":"我們最近6年來我們家庭廢棄物的事業廢棄物這個量產生大幅度攀升了112年已經分別達到1158萬公噸即2004萬公噸那並且因為這個政府的事業廢棄物處理的這個狀況包括南部最終的處理廠的"},{"start":5164.125,"end":5181.748,"text":"撤銷以及各地方失業廢棄物專門處理設施這個深色的不順利那112年已經有高達171.5萬公噸的失業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面這個是非常嚴重因為我們計算的話是大概是"},{"start":5182.549,"end":5199,"text":"我們目前的公有的這個焚化爐它年處理量可能只有600公噸等於佔了三分之一的這樣除了會排擠到我們一般垃圾的妥善處理率也會衍生這個很多的問題那接下來我們看這一張照片"},{"start":5201.415,"end":5214.376,"text":"都是擱縣市垃圾處理受到的失業廢棄物的排擠．無法順利處理而暫置的一個狀況目前包括桃園新竹南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山其中桃園市龍潭區"},{"start":5216.348,"end":5240.894,"text":"這個電子壺垃圾掩埋場已經堆至上百萬公噸的這個垃圾甚至已超過防護欄這恐有它這個坍塌的危險另外也產生不肖業者會在中間處理業者這個亂到的一個情形部長知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理失業廢棄物一公噸多少錢?失業廢棄物大概一萬塊上下"},{"start":5245.848,"end":5263.444,"text":"地方政府欸?對,就焚化爐不是。焚化爐沒有吧?地方政府。您是說進地方政府焚化爐?進地方政府焚化爐是一萬塊。上下。那我知道的齁,有些這個失業廢棄物的這個處理商、清運商啦,他說的費用可能不止。"},{"start":5264.225,"end":5281.892,"text":"可能不只這樣子那他進到等於是他利用因為他如果進一般民間的可能更高可能更高所以我要講的重點是我們不能讓這些業者他用我們供的焚化爐讓他們來得到他們的那個獲利這個是暴利"},{"start":5284.153,"end":5307.791,"text":"那當然我們也要讓我們這些業者有地方去啊那當然我們知道剛剛有提到我剛剛也看到好幾個委員有提到就在我們現在垃圾事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去根本沒有地方去這個是一個非常嚴重的問題搞到後面這邊也不能說那邊也不能說的時候就是亂到就是亂到嘛那部長對於這個有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":5308.579,"end":5318.755,"text":"我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情是甚麼方式行政院已經核定了方案那就是有環境部還有經濟部跟國發費我聽說有在做20那現在有推動12座設施"},{"start":5324.243,"end":5350.103,"text":"我還給部長建議這是有很多的政策其實我們知道垃圾沒辦法處理可是到了地方當要設置的時候就是因為地方的聲音不同就退了那一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題我在這邊建議環境部應該要拿出政府的一個魄力該做就是要做你不然到時候這些東西要去哪裡呢"},{"start":5350.823,"end":5373.218,"text":"所以我認為各縣市都應該要有一個責任區甚至於我認為部長你應該給各縣市鼓勵、獎勵甚至要求各縣市至少要做一做各縣市處理自己垃圾的問題應該是很合理的我覺得用這個邏輯請政府出面然後政府來監督就不會擔心因為往往這種東西這是閒物設施"},{"start":5375.8,"end":5375.82,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":5404.716,"end":5416.205,"text":"謝謝邱政軍委員的發言謝謝部長的回應那我們下一位請黃秀芳委員發言黃秀芳委員請謝謝主席我們請部長有請部長"},{"start":5420.151,"end":5438.147,"text":"好委員好部長好部長在2013年齊柏林導演他拍了這個看見臺灣那我也相信當時齊柏林導演跟部長應該也還蠻熟的因為他那時候要拍的話可能有一些"},{"start":5439.067,"end":5467.066,"text":"關於天氣的狀況有一些資訊都是詢問你我在2013年看到齊柏林導演的這部電影其實還蠻感動的因為我在2014年那時候就在各個我們彰化的各個社區因為那時候有公播了所以我們就買了版權然後在各個社區播其實影響到蠻多人就看到說台灣的山林"},{"start":5468.827,"end":5468.987,"text":"委員會議委員會議"},{"start":5486.594,"end":5513.653,"text":"沒有減反而是增那部長剛剛講說可能是計算的方式不一樣可是我在想說竟然已經經過了從齊柏林導演到現在可能也將近10年的時間那我們希望說環境部應該要做一些事情總是讓自己的這個生長的環境能夠更好而不是更差因為剛剛看到很多委員他們秀出來的這個照片到處垃圾山"},{"start":5514.113,"end":5515.234,"text":"我們也知道就是說整個"},{"start":5544.124,"end":5563.648,"text":"台灣的這個垃圾站制場剛剛部長也有特別提到大約是100座那其中有這個將近60座是距離學校不遠距離學校不到這個兩公里的地方那有的是在水源區尤其是南投本來鳥嘴潭這個鳥嘴潭旁邊的那個垃圾場"},{"start":5566.229,"end":5585.376,"text":"好像也已經開始就是已經清理也快清理完畢了嗎那因為他是在那個水源區所以我是想要請部長針對這部分未來我們有將近100座的這個垃圾站置場那有一些部分是接近學校的這個垃圾站置場"},{"start":5585.996,"end":5610.049,"text":"那未來我們要怎麼去處理我覺得這個總是要處理剛剛部長有講就是說如果是把它堆成這樣子的話其實是造成環境的這個污染水源的污染那空氣的污染那也許一把火之後可能又造成很嚴重的這個代藥性空污影響身體健康所以我想請教部長未來我們這樣的一個垃圾戰車場未來要怎麼樣逐步去處理"},{"start":5611.01,"end":5625.951,"text":"報告委員短期是把這個好好的打包處理不要有火災、惡臭這個是短期我們要做的事那長期的話因為我們到117年等於是說等於是焚化爐的運能會上來所以這些都會把它去化掉"},{"start":5626.431,"end":5640.137,"text":"所以大概我們會再給委員一個時間大概遇到什麼時候但是這個要完全到零這個還需要跟地方政府再做一個通盤的這個計算所以我們會再想辦法再給委員一個數字出來這個也是我們早上在討論的問題"},{"start":5641.818,"end":5655.313,"text":"所以我是認為就是說部長你自己來自民間我相信你跟齊柏林導演應該有很好的交情那他拍這部電影最主要也看到臺灣的好臺灣的美"},{"start":5656.775,"end":5681.192,"text":"那也有臺灣這個環境被破壞的一面那很難得就是說部長你原本在民間那現在可以在這個環境部當部長應該也可以做一些事情所以我們希望就是說部長你在這個位置上應該要發揮你的影響力那讓整個臺灣不論是在環境上能夠有一些改變我覺得最基本的這個垃圾的問題應該要去做一個解決"},{"start":5681.772,"end":5703.487,"text":"好謝謝委員的鼓勵這個我跟齊柏林是真的是好朋友他過世的那個前幾天的記者會我還去參加做到後面結果隔兩天他就失事了我是到現在為止都還蠻那個這個就覺得像您提到這個就感受非常的強那他其實拍了很多這個垃圾山那也跟委員報告因為我最近其實都有去"},{"start":5704.448,"end":5728.968,"text":"很低調的去看一些支援回收的處理我的確看到一些問題那我會花時間去看看委員提到的這個臨近學校的地方我們有沒有更好的方法來處理但是整個粉化爐的量能夠提升出來支持他們這才是現在我們可以用的方法那未來我們就支援回收促進法這個如果說支援學完促進法如果可以把它完成的話應該環境部扛起責任來"},{"start":5729.768,"end":5746.529,"text":"會更有好的效果所以我們希望年底如果可以這一次草案預告的話明年如果送到大院來處理的話應該會更有效是好那部長我想請教就是說之前那個環團有拜位這個行政院陳情就是"},{"start":5747.369,"end":5769.436,"text":"陳其那表示說這個源頭減量的這個預算不足那造成廢棄物越積越多的最主要的原因那環境部當時又回應就是說補助地方的這個源頭減量的經費就是當時可能沒有被環團記錄才會讓這個源頭減量的預算看起來好像是不多那也承諾說明年源頭減量的預算會增加那我"},{"start":5774.198,"end":5796.501,"text":"看到就是說你們有講說資源循環促進法在年底就會送進這個立法院草案預告希望明年可以送進來那如果草案預告是在這個明年你是說明年今年年底然後明年可以開始來送到大院來審那這樣子你明年的預算要怎麼增加"},{"start":5799.293,"end":5826.928,"text":"現在已經開始要針對明年的預算對現在開始要針對明年的預算要省了嗎那你這樣子的話你明年的這個源頭減量的預算要怎麼增加那各位報告就是我們在戰略部分有些相關的用途比如說要再使用啊修復或者循環採購這些都有在同時推動那因為促進法的話可以讓我們跟各部會還有我們要去要求業者做一些規定那更能有強制力也能夠建立一些制度"},{"start":5828.168,"end":5850.076,"text":"我想請部長因為其實很多的政策只要是環境部有在推動其實地方也會跟著配合就像之前我們一直在講的這個減塑膠還有一個是禁用塑膠吸管其實我覺得環境部有在推地方他們主動就會配合"},{"start":5852.717,"end":5867.167,"text":"環境部如果這個政策沒有很用力在推的時候可能地方就覺得好像現在中央沒有很大力在推可能就沒有那麼用力在譬如說吸管的部分可能就沒有很用力在推所以我覺得一個政策"},{"start":5868.027,"end":5884.794,"text":"中央的推動跟地方民眾是不是會去配合其實我覺得有很大息息相關就像之前我們一直在說禁用這個塑膠吸管可是民眾他自己就會知道說那我以後可能就要用那個鐵那個鋼的那種吸管或者是用那種紙吸管甚至用那種"},{"start":5885.674,"end":5887.295,"text":"所以我是不是可以請部長你再回應一下"},{"start":5913.566,"end":5938.084,"text":"其實我其實現在都是在不斷的有時間都會拜訪地方的縣市首長啦希望變成是一個策略夥伴的關係那剛剛這個源頭講那個部分其實我有注意到有些縣市的確是非常認真啦那有些縣市他可能重心不大一樣所以我們會環境部應該會起一步調啦像我們昨天弄淹地的活動幾乎所有的縣市環保局就全部都來了所以我們會在這個部分會再努力加強"},{"start":5938.945,"end":5961.873,"text":"好那我也感謝就是部長你有從這個最小我們剛剛講的那個菸地其實那個也是很有感可能我們如果可以設一個譬如說在公共場合設一個吸菸室它是菸地不要亂丟或者是在一些公園或者是在公的這個場所設吸菸室或者是那個菸地的那種回收的"},{"start":5962.073,"end":5982.278,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5982.458,"end":6008.96,"text":"所以我覺得說真的源頭減量真的非常的重要那另外就是說我們講剛剛講的這個生活習慣的改變可能這個網購網購的生活習慣改變那可能會收到這個紙你買的東西可能包裝紙盒紙箱真的都非常的多那這樣子是不是也要鼓勵業者就是用回收箱好像這個回收箱好像好像也不是"},{"start":6009.721,"end":6012.202,"text":"我們會來主動來跟他們來聊聊天說看怎麼樣幫忙這些創新的方式"},{"start":6025.626,"end":6049.394,"text":"好那這個就再拜託拜託部長那我們希望就是說台灣真的好山好水真的需要大家一起努力然後我們也拜託部長在新的這個剛上來之後這個總是新人有一些新的魄力新的氣象所以我們一起努力好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝防西方委員的發言謝謝部長的回應那下一位我們請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":6059.505,"end":6064.917,"text":"謝謝主席。我請部長。好。有請部長。蘇磊好。"},{"start":6066.158,"end":6092.586,"text":"部長我看我們的廢棄物裡面最大的問題是塑膠啦塑膠堆啦是PVC之類的那有沒有辦法請那個那個衛生物專家喔看看有沒有衛生物可以分解分解這個PVC這樣問題就解決啦因為現在紫類的有機類的都會腐爛嘛都會腐分那現在以前菸埋場"},{"start":6094.244,"end":6099.267,"text":"我今天要問你是醫療廢棄物這個哪一個署長比較專門的因為你講都沒有講到醫療廢棄物那醫療廢棄物的事業管理機關是衛福部但是衛福部沒有能力管理這個啦"},{"start":6122.623,"end":6149.708,"text":"他自己也要分類而已所以我跟大家報告這個是他有一般就事業廢棄物一個是一般醫療廢棄物一個是有汙染性的廢棄物那來下一張你先看那個袋子我們現在在醫院裡面就是分五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五袋子、五"},{"start":6152.283,"end":6157.678,"text":"五天就是放到我們一般的文化場對不對五天就是要回收的啦"},{"start":6159.4,"end":6161.582,"text":"那這個環保署到最後還是你們要來統籌吧"},{"start":6189.694,"end":6217.958,"text":"這是黃袋子現在就是像譬如說下面各位看到下面這個這針頭當然是要燒掉那是針筒還有這些管線譬如說洗腎室洗腎室一天台灣洗腎病人將近10萬人血液透析跟腹膜透析搞不好超過了那這些管線像血液透析他的管線一個病人就要用一套然後disposable就丟掉"},{"start":6219.226,"end":6237.978,"text":"那這些管線事實上是沒有去接觸到什麼東西那這些管線沖完之後高壓、魅菌是可以回收的現在做的都是把它做這個衣啊做這個衣啊這個我們都去看過台南啊台中我們都去看過那像這樣"},{"start":6239.571,"end":6254.957,"text":"你有沒有辦法要輔導說盡量能回收的就回收那真的是很汙染的接觸到病人的針頭的查CVP的那個是真的要燒那環保署你這一環保環防部隊這個有沒有什麼看法部長還有書長"},{"start":6256.878,"end":6273.116,"text":"報告這個委員這個我有跟那個衛福部長談到這個事情我應該會隨意來兩個部會來討論那因為現在的生物醫療廢棄物大概有8家的公司在處理我們福島8家那目前的確是有這種滅菌再利用的這個針對這個針頭還有塑膠的針管這個問題"},{"start":6276.638,"end":6304.378,"text":"所以現在燒的不多了嘛用燒的直接燒掉的一年不多但是回收的現在到了七八萬噸了齁不只齁第一張第一張那個第一張回收大概每個月是量能大概是兩千噸兩千噸啦每個月一個月兩千噸不過總一年是七萬多七萬八千多噸那拿去燒掉的就是一般的廢棄物就是我伯爺的啦十二萬噸"},{"start":6305.319,"end":6319.69,"text":"大概3萬多噸啦生物醫療的話是3萬多噸分化你這個這個你有沒有什麼想法要怎麼來提高這個因為我個人的看法是這個回收是蠻重要的啦就是你們要去垃圾減量這個是好的事情啊"},{"start":6325.194,"end":6343.595,"text":"我們這邊是會來輔導這個醫院他怎麼樣去分選然後可以再利用但是我們也希望說衛福他可以來幫忙譬如說在醫院評鑑的時候我們可以加入說如果你醫院做一些再利用或者簡單的工作那可以列入一個評鑑加分的項目那這樣更能鼓勵這個會有誘因那最好是能補助一些"},{"start":6344.956,"end":6364.062,"text":"你錢那麼多就補助一點嘛對不對我們跟衛福部差很多好幾倍我也要支持我們啊衛福部錢比較多包含醫院也要減碳啊這個我們都對啊醫院上次跟你執行的牌放也不少啊很多很多"},{"start":6364.702,"end":6389.925,"text":"那衛福部這些專家學者應該沒有能力去弄到這一塊這個還是你們專門所以不要說這個是事業單位他們就要自己去負責不可以這樣做要去農業部 農業廢棄物就農業部去負責農業部才有能力到最後還是環保部 環境部最大你最大臺灣環境要靠你啊是是是"},{"start":6392.567,"end":6418.641,"text":"這個我會跟邱部長來討論這個事情好不好那來接著我講這個小琉球的事小琉球有兩個很嚴重的問題第一個小琉球有在推這個杯子循環杯然後循環杯全台灣用循環杯的才1%而已這個我有data但是小琉球的data多少我不知道"},{"start":6419.318,"end":6444.433,"text":"所以你們可能要查一下給我資料那小六九這個杯子現在好像八十幾家餐廳有還有賣量的有加入但是我以醫生的角度看這個東西你看用一桶在那邊洗洗一洗清潔劑人工還要晾乾還要烘乾還要消毒"},{"start":6446.679,"end":6467.573,"text":"這樣還會合嗎?這個推得起來嗎?你們有沒有補助?有補助沒有啊那邊自備環保杯買東西就折扣五塊錢啊然後洗完杯是不是有感染啊汙染啊臺北不是有兩三家麥當勞本來用那個後來都收掉了大家怕啦真的會怕啊這要怎麼改善?"},{"start":6473.706,"end":6493.623,"text":"其實要鼓勵自己戴啦第一個還是要鼓勵自己戴啦阿這個只是說一個循環的一個方式你沒有辦法戴的話我們盡量用這個因為小琉球那個地方如果我們不這樣做的話垃圾永遠沒辦法減量所以衍生到第三個問題小琉球現在的垃圾部長你覺得他要怎麼做運回來台灣用"},{"start":6497.455,"end":6507.895,"text":"用茶,一個一個吊在房間再來台灣這有夠誇張的,你知道嗎?前一陣子根本沒有人要飆啊所以呢"},{"start":6509.485,"end":6532.456,"text":"對於基如山 我不知道幾十萬棟就很嚴重臭氣沖天然後漏火就都衰衰下來那小琉球本來有一個焚化爐那個焚化爐不能用嗎為什麼不花點錢把它弄好然後垃圾從小琉球一袋一袋用太空包這樣掉掉到火船上然後帶回來屏東燒 砍頂燒"},{"start":6535.322,"end":6552.151,"text":"你會把那個焚化爐弄好嗎?那些都是你們出錢的嘛專題的焚化爐也是你們出錢的對啊 報告委員那個一個焚化爐運作要有一個量啦小溜球雖然垃圾很多可是如果一個焚化爐運作量又不夠啦養不起 又養不起這是最大的問題"},{"start":6552.694,"end":6570.069,"text":"那你這樣的話你那個問題是無解捏因為他每開飆就沒有人要飆所以這次縣政府也強力介入然後把那個環保車就直接開到貨船上 走到塞塞修旅渠 走到塞到船上再載回來 再再塞去看電 看電話路你要想一個辦法把他解決啦這樣這樣這樣"},{"start":6581.51,"end":6582.331,"text":"我們要排個考察來小寮球看看"},{"start":6611.112,"end":6615.395,"text":"所以這個小琉球的垃圾問題部長你要想想看要如何解決這個真的解決是不行的"},{"start":6635.157,"end":6635.637,"text":"希望委員支持"},{"start":6666.356,"end":6686.952,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言在這邊做一個宣告等一下在賴會員委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席有請彭部長"},{"start":6690.097,"end":6716.098,"text":"王委員好部長好很高興今天又能夠在這個地方跟您切磋一些有關於環保的事情這次我很高興有機會去參加世界衛生會相關的會議擔任視導團的一部分其他的包括江副院長一起去日內瓦做視導"},{"start":6718.36,"end":6747.84,"text":"其實也得到蠻多的啟發所以想要再利用這個機會詢問一下部長相關的一些想法或者是未來我們可以努力的方向那這次其實很高興有機會同時去參加或者去洛杉磯管理學院參訪了有關相關國家競爭力年度報告的一些得到的資訊他們預計在6月18號就要公布今年年度的報告的成果"},{"start":6748.76,"end":6777.132,"text":"我們也很高興在2023年IMD的世界競爭率全球是第6名當然我們很期待它今年還有更好的成績出來在這個很高興大家共同努力得到這樣的成果的同時其實賴總統在今年的5月20日的就職演說裡面也提到有關於我們必須要發展創新驅動的經濟模式透過速度轉型"},{"start":6778.172,"end":6800.771,"text":"以及近年轉型的雙軸力量來協助中小企業升級轉型不過我們看到的就是在IMD的排名的部分我們有一些擔心的地方包括說雖然我們的這個永續貿易指數總排名是第10名可是呢在於經濟社會還有環境面的部分"},{"start":6801.451,"end":6821.032,"text":"在一共70個指標裡面有關於環境項目我們排的是第27名當然部長是先任的其實歷任的部長也都非常非常的用心在改善相關的這些指標或者是整體的環境"},{"start":6821.613,"end":6832.899,"text":"那部長依照您對於這個IMD在最後面的相關的競爭力的部分您有沒有信心明年可以更好?"},{"start":6835.278,"end":6858.247,"text":"這個其實有很多的國際組織都會排名那我也曾經是國際的組織的排名的審查委員過那當然這個我比較相信這個IMD的確他的水準是很高的那我們現在的資料來看的話因為他拿的是比較舊的那我們當時也沒有相關英文的資料所以我們現在把英文畫之後讓他們可以直接每年都會抓到我們資料之後"},{"start":6858.747,"end":6876.107,"text":"我們在今年的排名應該會往前提升所以請委員放心但是我們還有很多要努力的地方啦包含我們的碳的人均的排碳量等等這個我們要努力啦是因為下一章告訴我們說表現相對不是那麼滿意的部分"},{"start":6877.048,"end":6905.798,"text":"包括像森林砍伐當然不是全部都是環境部的問題而是相關於整個國內如何能夠提升環境保護的部分包括森林砍伐也希望能夠有更精進另外就是環境貿易標準、碳再生能源等等剛剛提到比較期待的就是針對協助中小企業升級轉型的部分其中有關的就是淨零轉型的努力"},{"start":6906.238,"end":6930.838,"text":"不知道部長目前有沒有瞭解哪一些的企業做的是相對是比較好可以當作我們點上標準的企業不管是在智慧轉型、晉能轉型還有他們帶動的這個經濟模式的部分可不可以有相關的企業可以讓我們國內其他企業可以作為標竿學習的這些案件可以讓我們瞭解"},{"start":6931.458,"end":6952.205,"text":"報告委員其實臺灣的科技業因為它的貿易對外所以臺灣的科技業在減碳的或是永續的各種指標都做得非常的好那我知道我們經濟部也有這種以大帶小的整個供應鏈在做所以他們正在補充還是我們請我們署長來跟委員說明一下我舉一個例子就是最近那個"},{"start":6953.525,"end":6973.441,"text":"對喔,我們有集合國內電子五哥跟他們一起合作總共有差不多有200多家的供應鏈一起跟他們合作那這樣就是以大大小會垂直下來那以後對我們國際在探足機是有相當大的幫助那這樣以大大小它的成效才會大所以目前我們正在推展這一部分的一個計畫"},{"start":6974.662,"end":6994.248,"text":"是 謝謝因為我這次同時也去參訪了世界貿易組織他是我們台灣唯一參加的一個算是國際型的組織他們也很期待把這些概念帶進來以後可以去國際貿易組織去做相關的一些表達讓我們去引領如果未來針對於這種"},{"start":6996.569,"end":7015.466,"text":"參與世界貿易組織當中可以把近鄰轉型可以把它變成一個貿易架構之下可以去跟世界發聲讓世界看到臺灣的部分就麻煩大家一起往這個方面再來努力包委員我在上任前包含蘋果的它的供應鏈的採購永續的主管也特別跑來"},{"start":7016.247,"end":7017.008,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝這一部分的這個回應"},{"start":7033.924,"end":7048.373,"text":"再過來剛剛很多委員也有提到醫療廢棄物的處理的部分循環的永續其實我們也了解如果環境部要推動零廢棄的話即使醫療機構它產出的廢棄物相較於其他的製造業跟"},{"start":7055.197,"end":7080.403,"text":"電力供應業相對是比較低只佔了不到1%可是我們看到比較擔心的就是醫療廢棄物的再利用率相對是偏低的我們下一張範疇片可以看到的就是其他的總事業或者是經濟部的事業的這些再利用率即使是一般的事業廢棄物的再利用率都可以高到八九十個%"},{"start":7081.443,"end":7103.914,"text":"可是很可惜的就是衛福部的目的事業即使是一般事業廢棄物也只不到10%那剛剛部長也有說會跟邱部長共同來討論如何能夠有效的提升這方面的在利用率那其實在5月的時候也針對這個問題請教了前任的薛部長"},{"start":7104.474,"end":7127.731,"text":"那薛部長也有回應說會持續的與衛福部合作來研議相關的這個工具那也很希望部長你能夠持續的關注這個問題希望能夠近期就有機會把相關這個研議的成果可以讓我們來了解也可以持續的來注意這個未來的這個可以改善的地方"},{"start":7128.931,"end":7145.656,"text":"因為醫療注重的是安全跟我們其他的廢棄物的所謂回收的概念不一樣所以這個部分我們要突破我真的會跟衛福部來討論因為至少是一般的廢棄物不是說有關生物醫療廢棄物這個兩個部分還是要能夠有效的分開"},{"start":7151.138,"end":7175.571,"text":"再過來非常謝謝部長一開始就提出大家很有感的這個燕地減量推動臺灣新文化運動有關於這個對於這個燕地部分造成的這個影響那您提出的這個有六大策略21加N的措施這個N加得非常好"},{"start":7176.651,"end":7202.259,"text":"請教部長這個恩會包括哪一些的可能有感的內容這個齁因為我們昨天有大概有包括了北一女的同學還有兩位都是年輕的朋友來那我是希望不要我們政府來定啦民間比我們政府有創意啦開放增建啦那個恩就是開放民眾來參與好的創意我們就來好的話可以實行的話我們就來用那個恩的意思就是無限大"},{"start":7202.699,"end":7228.215,"text":"我們要從民間來啦 不要政府訂啦 我們政府訂的例如說我們取締大家一定很不高興啊 我們政府想辦法如何取締大概這個效果也很有限但是我們如果從這個民間的創意來改變這個文化 這個會更快啦是 想見這個彭部長的數學一定非常好 可以把N用到這樣的地方來 那請問一下未來我們在多短的時間裡面就有可能看到N的成果"},{"start":7229.558,"end":7253.018,"text":"我們預計是11月才會決選出來我最近近期應該會到各個縣市找委員或是縣市所長一起來撿菸蒂所以這件事情我們一定會先來做因為各位都是知名人士然後來倡議這個會很有感因為我們現在全台灣的煙灰缸就是在水溝所以我們要趕快改變一下這個習慣"},{"start":7254.399,"end":7269.646,"text":"這個就從文化所以為什麼昨天找小野部長來就是這樣因為他來帶動來站台就是很有說服力謝謝那希望行動的時候也讓我知道一下連請委員來跟我一起撿菸蒂來看那個水溝都是菸蒂很誇張啦"},{"start":7270.666,"end":7294.589,"text":"非常樂意那最後再提醒有關於登革熱房子的環境的清理的部分我們知道上一次我請教薛部長的時候像經費的使用預算也已經到了一個步我們希望如果說需要透過這個滾動式的管理的話可以讓這個經費的部分再適度的去幫助地方"},{"start":7295.129,"end":7298.63,"text":"謝謝委員現在本土病例高雄已經沒有了現在147例所以高雄現在已經稍微緩和了謝謝"},{"start":7321.204,"end":7321.784,"text":"謝謝主席﹖有請部長﹖請彭部長"},{"start":7349,"end":7374.532,"text":"是部長我今天是回梁家那個因為在上一屆我長時間是待在衛環委員會那其實你是新的部長我有特別觀察你就是你大概是我們所有的部長裡頭最優雅的一個為什麼因為你的西裝西裝口袋常常帶了一個口袋巾況且你的口袋巾還會做不同的一個變化"},{"start":7375.692,"end":7396.542,"text":"那這樣子的一個這麼講究這個穿著的一個部長然後讓你來我們這個環境部管所有就是我們周邊的一個環境裡頭最需要的這個不管是垃圾的處理還是其他的一個處理這個實在是一個非常妙的一個人才的一個應用"},{"start":7398.223,"end":7405.108,"text":"我想今天要來跟部長探討就是所有違法的廢棄物這個掩埋其實理見不鮮就是說"},{"start":7408.103,"end":7433.058,"text":"有沒有辦法去掌握那我們用一個現在看到的一個新竹的案例他的罰款才1500萬可是他的獲利首得有多少他是1.5億的獲利首得那你想想看這樣子的一個那個有這麼好的一個獲利大家其實不斷的真的就是說非法掩埋其實絕大部分都是慣患"},{"start":7433.899,"end":7433.919,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7452.321,"end":7452.561,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7471.365,"end":7484.87,"text":"買賣的喔他是把它買來了以後用人頭用人頭去就是做這個買家那他把好的土挖掉了剩下的就是蓋上蓋上就是這些違法的廢棄物"},{"start":7486.536,"end":7487.937,"text":"有沒有辦法管?"},{"start":7487.937,"end":7497.487,"text":"沒有辦法管光是我們台南就是違法的這個廢棄掩埋廠就是工廠的這個廠我們都超過100個點現在是在環境部裡頭"},{"start":7503.552,"end":7505.653,"text":"臺灣的一個產業裡頭就是台積電做得最好"},{"start":7532.341,"end":7552.106,"text":"對那就是我覺得不要用台積電你應該就是用一般一般所有中小企業這個所有的一個君子來講對我們就是希望用台積電他管理成功的經驗能夠擴散到全臺灣所有的廢棄物都要這樣來管制來處理這不可能"},{"start":7553.366,"end":7578.612,"text":"完全不可能 因為台積電我跟你講 台積電他有很厚實的一個財力 這個板磨工一般才是兩千塊 你知道台積電他一天雇用他們多少 雇用他們四千五可是他要他們就是有非常完整的一個SOP的一個勞工的一個安全"},{"start":7579.372,"end":7598.214,"text":"所以我覺得你如果這樣子跟我回答的話部長我會覺得你沒有抓到問題的一個重點那我們再來繼續再看下去就是說這個垃圾車在輕盈的路線裡頭有沒有辦法追蹤這個是在上一屆的時候我持續一直在追蹤這個議題"},{"start":7599.616,"end":7619.855,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7619.935,"end":7638.35,"text":"部長,會後給我,沒有問題。會後把這個資料給我。那現在AI的一個發展在我們臺灣有一個非常好的建制的一個制度有沒有辦法就是在我們所有的垃圾車你甚至就是說在垃圾車清印的一個路線裡頭我覺得"},{"start":7640.151,"end":7642.692,"text":"再來在這裡跟部長再做一個這個探討就是說"},{"start":7656.678,"end":7679.489,"text":"垃圾處理不完,增加焚化爐,它還是要活化。台南的垃圾處理的一個不足已經累計暫存了30萬噸,它這個需要20年,所以你說減淹地這是一個先示,這個是一個非常好的效果,可是問題就是暫存的這些垃圾量"},{"start":7680.209,"end":7693.938,"text":"這個不是只有台南有這些問題如果你到了很多的一個縣市很多的一個工業區裡頭你去看到了每一個場每一個場進去的時候都是暫存的一個垃圾在那個地方啊"},{"start":7694.91,"end":7716.418,"text":"所以部長我跟你講你這麼優雅你這麼注重你自己本身那你要去這麼多地方都是這麼多本首的地方所以你要知道這本首有多少所以就是說回收的再利用我們知道回收再利用的價格其實是影響民眾的一個回收的一個應用那我想你拿回去檢討"},{"start":7717.398,"end":7747.398,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7747.738,"end":7748.359,"text":"部長我在這裏請問你"},{"start":7777.197,"end":7790.363,"text":"全國有幾座文化爐?像我們台南,我們台南就有兩座那有多少座?24加5,5是在興建不錯,就是這個後建的5座還是在進行中"},{"start":7791.283,"end":7791.943,"text":"接下來請紐許廷委員發言"},{"start":7826.889,"end":7839.545,"text":"好 謝謝主席 這個環境部部長還有環管署署長有請請彭部長還有嚴署長部長早安今天我們等一下投影片好不好"},{"start":7844.436,"end":7868.641,"text":"今天看到這個專題報告本席是覺得很高興因為這個環境部不只有注意到這個垃圾處理最終去化的問題也注意到了戰事的問題這其實是本席非常關心的一個事情根據環境部統計的資料近5年一般廢棄物的總生產量即超過千萬公噸那與此同時針對一般廢棄物的暫存量的部分從21萬公噸翻了4倍來到84萬公噸"},{"start":7873.442,"end":7891.378,"text":"那麼處理量減少了5.85%一般廢棄物的妥善處理率從98.85%降到93%從圖表裡面你可以看到這個黃色的部分其實是這個紅色的折線圖的部分其實是所謂的垃圾佔滯量從圖表的角度看起來它好像很少"},{"start":7892.259,"end":7909.933,"text":"叫做圖表為福但是選區巨量什麼意思呢右邊這張圖是全台灣有超過100座的垃圾佔治場也就是基於垃圾清運的動線啊人力啊資源啊等等的一個困境我必須要把垃圾佔治在某些場域"},{"start":7910.453,"end":7939.633,"text":"然後再送到最終的去化場所但是這些事情當初在臺灣還沒有那麼完整發展的時候可能二三十年前設立的時候它可能是都市的近郊周邊荒煙漫草沒有人大家也就放在那個地方就算了但隨著都市化的推進這個大樓重劃區開始蓋起來之後這個就變成最麻煩的零幣設施部長今天特別要提這一點就是因為龜山本期的選區龜山這個叫做大埔垃圾轉運站這是我們用空拍機拍的"},{"start":7941.154,"end":7965.274,"text":"這個桃園的焚化爐最近在稅休所以基於這個戰事的壓力就會大幅的來增加那麼大幅來增加的時候這個就是標準的以前是城市的競交現在周邊都是大樓我因為這樣的事情被人家罵死了那沒辦法遇到這樣子我們總是要面對總是要處理所以我今天看到環境部講說垃圾戰事是一個問題的時候本席是很高興所以趕快來跟部長做一個研討"},{"start":7966.275,"end":7990.113,"text":"部長現在竟然注意到全台灣有這麼多的垃圾戰事場垃圾的戰事量也上升請問現在中央針對這樣子的一個結構問題有沒有任何的措施來做處理報告委員那個因為我們有正在5個新的焚化爐在興建預期它的容量會到700萬噸所以現在的你剛才看到那個龜山現在正在轉運等於是正在去化當中還要一點點時間"},{"start":7994.219,"end":8008.111,"text":"對我現在講你剛剛講說我們投入的資源都是在末端去化也就是說我把末端的量做大那相對來講這個垃圾處理速度會變快戰事的壓力就會降低但很多戰事其實是基於距離啊基於什麼的我發現你環保"},{"start":8009.692,"end":8024.361,"text":"這個環境部裡面有一個這個多元垃圾處理計劃他其實有一筆預算好去處理這件事桃園市政府本來想要申請一筆預算把這個做個加蓋或什麼的但是我認為不可以我為什麼認為不可以呢你在這個大樓旁邊一旦加蓋那就轉一轉就走不了了"},{"start":8024.921,"end":8047.943,"text":"那這絕對不是周邊居民要的但我希望的是如果這一筆多元的這個處理計畫除了是末端的處理之外中途的轉運你能不能做靈活的調度如何來順利的轉運讓轉運站退場其實是增加青年隊的人手增加垃圾車的數量讓這個轉運的過程可以順利我就不用因為送不完然後影響垃圾清運而必須要有站置場"},{"start":8048.924,"end":8064.597,"text":"這環境部願不願意來做一下多年的思考也就是說針對戰事一百多座戰場的退場計畫與一定的預算支持跟政策的協助請部長回答一下我們請我們署長可以這我請他來講的很重要的一個原因是包委員是這樣子那個"},{"start":8065.077,"end":8066.038,"text":"地方政府主責"},{"start":8088.496,"end":8116.084,"text":"但我們希望中央可以提供預算跟政策的支持好不好我們來研討這個事情可以嗎好不好希望環境部這個會後我們來做一下強加的研討我們跟台灣市政府來開個會來處理那這第一個是我們講說希望可以增加垃圾車的車輛也好清潔人員也好協助地方政府做這個事第二個我們講去化這個我跟前任的部長有講過應該有區域聯防的機制焚化爐個別縣市沒辦法處理周邊縣市合作處理那當然合作處理你可以讓地方自己談但地方自己談沒有誘因"},{"start":8117.164,"end":8137.764,"text":"我希望中央設定誘因凡是各縣是不管藍的綠的只要願意做區域聯防的相關的預算補助或什麼多一點提供政策誘因讓區域聯防的機制可以常態化第三個本席也要花點時間去講就是我們發現到這個末端處理的經費很高因為你要蓋焚化爐可是前端處理的經費綠色的你看顯然落差非常大"},{"start":8138.505,"end":8149.734,"text":"這一點我希望可以做有效的調整我們大家都在講垃圾減量最有效的措施叫做專用垃圾袋我們新的部長上任之後這個要不要推是全國推還是各地方推有沒有想法"},{"start":8151.031,"end":8178.247,"text":"基本上齁這個我們大多數已經直接最後一路就市場啦但是我們跟我同仁討論之後不要硬推因為要改變生活習慣壓力很大對不對壓力很大我們會想一個更好的方式來解決兩種做法一個是你中央要全國推你的主力很高這本席理解那第二個就是鼓勵各地方先行嘛然後慢慢慢慢擴散但同樣就是同樣的邏輯你如果要鼓勵地方推中央請給地方優惠跟誘因跟預算的支持"},{"start":8178.827,"end":8203.165,"text":"讓地方在推的時候門檻降低他們才會有比較大的誘因去推動然後從源頭這個其實就是你源頭可以上升的地方嘛補貼一些地方政府來鼓勵事辦這樣的一個措施然後也收集經驗讓這個政策能夠慢慢的來落地這是本席的希望好不好今天這三個訴求都是希望中央給予地方一定的支持來解決垃圾戰事的問題希望部長可以提供好的解決方案我答應過這個主席不能浪費太多時間謝謝林委員謝謝謝謝我們會來努力"},{"start":8205.879,"end":8209.27,"text":"好謝謝牛許廷委員發言那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8457.592,"end":8457.754,"text":"OK,謝謝各位。"},{"start":8843.936,"end":8859.611,"text":"好現在繼續開會請林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家午安是不是請我們這個彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":8863.815,"end":8883.5,"text":"委員好部長你好到目前為止我們衛網委員會三個部長看得出來你真的是相當相當的認真這一點我還是要給你肯定但是部長你在新上任的時候你召開記者會的時候宣布了四大重點政策其中一個政策是空氣品質標準的再檢討"},{"start":8886.201,"end":8902.222,"text":"那你所使用的語言是說你會想辦法像擰毛巾一樣再擰出一點進步的可能你是這樣說的吧?是是那我今天就要跟你討論如何再更用力的擰毛巾擰出更乾淨的空氣"},{"start":8903.303,"end":8917.419,"text":"那我想你講這個應該上任前啦幕僚上任後啦幕僚應該已經跟你講了在你上任以前的4月29號環境部就預告修正空氣品質的標準草案其中這個PM2.5的標準齁"},{"start":8920.402,"end":8938.174,"text":"年平均值要將由每立方米15維克加嚴到12維克但是24小時的平均值仍然維持每立方米35維克但是我今天要跟你講就是空氣品質標準它會連動到空氣品質指標的AQI"},{"start":8944.472,"end":8944.972,"text":"議員提供的內容"},{"start":8962.463,"end":8980.265,"text":"那你們呢在2022年委託了民調公司調查那民眾感受到空氣品質變化的主要依據除了天空目測的能見度環境的意味還有身體到底有沒有不舒服以外其實它就是根據你們公布的空氣品質"},{"start":8981.547,"end":8981.787,"text":"指標或監測值來作為一個依據"},{"start":9013.087,"end":9033.234,"text":"只有超過到橘燈才會對人體健康不好但是我今天要跟你講是因為2018年國衛院跟你們共同發表了PM2.5氣旋伏為例特徵對民眾健康影響的研究國衛院本土研究"},{"start":9034.721,"end":9040.485,"text":"他透過減量成本和健康效益評估發現全台灣PM2.5的濃度減量到15微克一立方米的時候那他可以避免1843個中風可以讓166個急性心肌梗塞避免掉可以減少568個肺癌可以712位的慢性阻塞肺病的個案可以避免發生"},{"start":9065.301,"end":9092.046,"text":"那可以增進27210年的平均餘命可以增進30282年的健康人生而可以節省健保29億8千萬元肺癌可以避免的死亡數如果把它降到10維克每立方米的標準以下的話那避免的死亡人數是638人"},{"start":9094.346,"end":9113.597,"text":"然後在15維克他標準下他是可以減少死亡345人那10維克是可以少死638個15維克是只剩下345個所以要講這個是說只差5維克就可以避免死亡人數就可以少一倍這樣子"},{"start":9115.29,"end":9124.759,"text":"所以你說 空氣品質標準重不重要 很重要因為你國家的標準定在哪裡 決定了國民的健康啊"},{"start":9126.007,"end":9147.162,"text":"那健康攸關的每一個家庭啊那也關係到健保的支出啊所以這個國會院的報告在2018年的建議對PM2.5對健康的影響在相當低的濃度仍有作用都應該要降到WHO標準年平均10維克日平均25維克"},{"start":9149.043,"end":9176.752,"text":"這是國會院的報告他還是建議我們說我們的年平均還是應該要10維克而日平均應該是25維克那事實上WHO的這個標準國會院建議的這個WHO的這個標準事實上人家WHO的標準都變了WHO的標準變成說年平均是5維克但是一天24小時的平均是15維克"},{"start":9178.953,"end":9181.435,"text":"他們已經變了這4年過去了但是我們要追上WHO的舊標準我們的阿旺只能看著他們的車尾燈還是一樣在追車尾燈捏部長你說還看不到喔"},{"start":9196.685,"end":9216.963,"text":"對第一個WHO是一個建議的標準目前還沒有一個國家真的用5維克當成是一個指標那我在講說看上一次的人家在那個10維克還有日平均25維克10維克也是我想達到的目標但是問題是說我們現在我們以現在我們幾個空品區來看花東"},{"start":9218.604,"end":9235.417,"text":"這麼乾淨的地方也只有7到8那我們西半部這麼密集那我們過去呢這個8年從20大概降到13點多大概降了7左右7維克左右其實花了蠻多錢的沒有啦20沒有降到13點多啦北部空瓶區12.2竹藐13啦中部16.5雲嘉南18.6高屏17.5啦"},{"start":9241.221,"end":9242.662,"text":"但是你現在他們已經預告的這個變成"},{"start":9271.601,"end":9295.688,"text":"十二跟二十四小時一天平均值三十五維克你有什麼想法?你說他在用力的擰毛巾擰出好的空氣品質你有什麼想法?第一個是說我們對未來的這個排放量 污染的排放量的推估以前我們是用直接展覽的方式我現在講標準啊你就講這個標準啊我現在跟你講你讓我再說一下不好意思因為你講遠我時間有限"},{"start":9297.569,"end":9311.838,"text":"我的意思是說你把15維克降到12維克年平均量看起來好像是進步的可是呢可是呢你24小時一天的平均值仍然維持35維克這有什麼概念這個概念很簡單啊因為它是一個總量的概念你一整天你吸進去的還是35維克啊"},{"start":9318.883,"end":9327.065,"text":"所以根據你們上個月發布的最新的112年空氣品質監測年報顯示你們雖然全台灣平均是13.7但是扣除掉陽明站、三義站、恆春站的測值以後事實上你們的年平均濃度是14.2而且都還比111年上升"},{"start":9342.39,"end":9347.934,"text":"111年是13.1結果你112年的濃度是14.2而且當然我們講花東地區都不要講啦所以在這種狀況裡面你們只有修正這個年平均值對於一天24小時你沒有修正你這個是維持原狀根本沒有用力擰毛巾這樣子不算用力擰毛巾啦"},{"start":9368.407,"end":9373.821,"text":"但不出來有用力擰毛巾要擰出好的空氣品質的感覺那沒有進步的誠意"},{"start":9374.929,"end":9388.612,"text":"有啦,委員那個是4月底公布的啦,5月我們會,6月應該會再修正啦,我們會有一些進步的空間會存在啦好,那我再跟你講AQI好了,AQI指標它對應到PM2.5 24小時的平均值,然後將PM2.5 15微克顯示為良好你們早已經不符合公共衛生裡面所有學界研究的科學事實了"},{"start":9399.694,"end":9427.816,"text":"你們的AQI指標都不動結果你說24小時平均值只要是15維克裡面的PM2.515維克都叫做空氣品質良好事實上就不是啊人家公衛的學者說這樣子對健康影響就很大了所以錯誤的良好的燈號讓我們民眾誤判也沒有因應空氣品質採取正確的應對方式造成我們民眾的健康"},{"start":9428.456,"end":9441.203,"text":"防護上的缺漏我要舉一個美國為例美國基於人體健康這個研究證據在今年2月已經將PM2.5的年均標準值下修為9維克同時在5月開始更新他們的AQI指標PM2.5要在9維克以下才會顯示為空氣優良的綠色那依據美國環保署的說法"},{"start":9456.132,"end":9469.431,"text":"他說他們也是這樣做啊做健康研究預計調整以後可望在2032年前增進460億美金的進健康效益包括防止4500人過早死亡"},{"start":9471.374,"end":9500.115,"text":"避免29萬個工作天的損失美國的國家環保局認為對健康空氣投資每一塊錢的美元就會產出77美元的效益投入資源來改善空汙是增進全民健康的關鍵尤其是跟空汙相關的死亡率還有慢性病都造成我國醫療龐大的這個資源的負擔不要忘了我們的氣管支氣管和肺癌"},{"start":9500.635,"end":9520.775,"text":"然而是台灣癌症死亡的第一位那我們現在講確實就是預防勝於治療嘛你要在健保上支出不如把這個錢花在我們的這個空氣防治上面所以在這裡呼籲政府不要讓污染成本消耗過多的健保資源那"},{"start":9521.576,"end":9545.689,"text":"你們的大棄屍以前張副司長跟媒體講過根據國衛院的研究成果考量到防治成本和經濟效益所以你們修正了草案才會變成24小時一天還是維持35維克雖然年平均值從15變成12但我們希望部長你考慮的不是只有產業的經濟效益而是應該再講"},{"start":9546.79,"end":9574.115,"text":"促進國人全民健康所省下的醫療資源負擔及健保成本真的是隱性的成本還有社會裡面每個為這種慢性病所支付的社會成本真的很高所以部長我是希望你在這裡可以承諾我們用擰毛巾的方式想辦法加嚴真正的去加嚴空氣品質包括降低PM2.5的年平均值以外還要我剛剛講的"},{"start":9576.055,"end":9595.135,"text":"二十四小時的平均值一天的平均值不能再繼續維持在35維克而且他跟他聯動的AQI指標也要一併調整讓我們民眾真正可以了解當下的空瓶狀況而讓我們可以自己做出健康防護可以嗎"},{"start":9595.896,"end":9614.327,"text":"委員我已經在擰了再給我一點點時間新的數據大概會出來抱歉我再講一個議題這個也是很重要因為就是說跟空污有關就從燃煤到SRF我們要建議都應該要建制有害空氣污染物HF"},{"start":9615.388,"end":9620.791,"text":"的策站因為根據空氣品質監測站設置及監測標準我們這個空品測站的設置和站址的這個選擇要反應全國性跨線式及空氣品質變化趨勢為目的所以考量要設置在哪裡包括"},{"start":9635.862,"end":9649.967,"text":"這個監測站要監測什麼種類包括污染源的分布類型污染物的濃度等等所以你們是考量很多所以你們的監測有很多種監測嘛包括你們的一般空氣品質監測工業區的空氣品質監測交通的空氣品質監測國家公園空氣品質監測還有環境背景的空氣品質監測還有其他空氣品質監測站"},{"start":9660.19,"end":9669.152,"text":"甚至要了解特殊污染的建置的還有任務型的監測站還有光化測站特殊工業區監測站河川陽城監測大氣窯測等等但是呢我今天要跟你講的是根據環保署委託中研院在2023年所做出來的112年度細旋輔為力PM2.5化學成分監測及分析計畫指出我現在講喔"},{"start":9689.738,"end":9715.867,"text":"他們去監測很多煙道煙道裡面測出DEHP塑化劑這個報告指出煙道採樣採出DEHP塑化劑他們提出一個疑問這是不是跟SRF的使用有關而且要持續去追蹤和釐清那這事情為什麼這麼嚴重你知道嗎部長"},{"start":9716.897,"end":9732.591,"text":"支援循環燃料它正在而且是你的重大政策即將要取代部分的燃煤現在空品的策戰都是為了燃煤的空品在做的設置和管制然後去因應"},{"start":9733.692,"end":9749.078,"text":"那你SRF要變成很大一部分要取代掉一大部分的那麼它你現在的策戰還有檢驗的方法等等都不足以因應支援循環燃料就SRF所造成的空氣污染第二個"},{"start":9749.758,"end":9756.385,"text":"不要講這個固定污染源連移動污染源像柴油車也會排放這個有害的空氣污染物而我們國內環境大氣對於這個HAPS的監測站就是監測有害空氣污染物的這個測站的設置都是設在工業區去看到排放"},{"start":9771.201,"end":9786.159,"text":"但是除了我剛剛講固定污染源以外還有交通污染源還有其他小型的麵源它是溢散出來的還有多位區裡面的受體造成民眾暴露在這種有害的空氣污染物裡面"},{"start":9786.96,"end":9795.266,"text":"那我們環境部在這一部分其實是沒有足夠的監測的都沒有所以我在這裡要建議環境部要設置全國重要性的HAPS的有害空氣污染物的空氣品質監測網路包括設置國家型的有害空氣污染物的趨勢策戰"},{"start":9808.715,"end":9832.461,"text":"包括要選定特定區域設置區域任務型的有害空氣品質測算要監測重要的HA、PS的物種那以美國聯邦這個環保署來講有害空氣污染物的監測的概念書裡面他就建議其實不是建置在污染源的旁邊而是應該要以受體"},{"start":9833.541,"end":9842.324,"text":"他對於污染、污染源對受體的影響所以不是建置在靠近大型污染源的策點而應以社區、學校、鄰近污染源的受體就是我會呼吸到這個受體他要據你的選擇要具代表性的策點"},{"start":9854.409,"end":9863.136,"text":"作為策戰的這個位置而且要定期監測調整監測區位確保這個民眾的健康所以我今天跟你講這兩件事情就是空瓶標準然後AQI指標再來就是因應SRF你們要讓他取代部分的燃煤那你的監測你的這個這個管制的方法其實都應該要對應出來"},{"start":9879.87,"end":9887.276,"text":"所以我在我認為你是認真的人而且你就宣誓說你要擰毛巾所以我們希望部長給我們看到你願意擰毛巾擰出更乾淨的空氣的誠意出來"},{"start":9896.122,"end":9923.878,"text":"我幫委員那個SRF我的確去看了您說的問題的確正在發生當中那我也承諾我們會有一個SRF的營運體檢的輔導團針對所有的廠從這個分裝到最後燃燒最後的大氣品質會全面的體檢大概三個月內所有的廠是什麼意思就是包含它的這個分裝還有最後燃燒我們不是講SRF這個建築廠我們是講使用了所有SRF的這個燃料的"},{"start":9924.418,"end":9924.838,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的發言"},{"start":9947.609,"end":9955.152,"text":"我現在在這邊做一個宣告等一下在洪森翰委員質詢結束處理臨時提案現在請廖偉祥委員發言謝謝主席有請我們部長請彭部長"},{"start":9969.996,"end":9983.1,"text":"首先我先簡單問一下因為你日前接受媒體說2050年的淨零排放達不到但是賴總統在他的就職演說說面對氣候危機必須要堅定的落實2050的淨零轉型"},{"start":9984.68,"end":10010.292,"text":"我想問說到底是你吃了誠實豆沙包呢還是賴總統吃了謊言豆沙包委員這個不能只看這個標題喔我說的是說全世界的目標很多的大家都坦言很難達到的目標這個gap很大例如說我們可能還是升溫3到4度左右那臺灣其實也一樣所以我們要加倍的努力要彎道超車所以的確是這個很難達的到啦對所以也希望部長我們"},{"start":10011.092,"end":10033.274,"text":"就算很難你也是要堅定的來為這個我們的環境來做出這個貢獻來努力好不好那部長這個在報導裡面也有主動提到針對這個地面型的太陽光電暗場納入環評進度那有關這個光電開發案除了重要是滴之外事實上免環評的這個題目反正這個在這個題目在3月21號的時候那個時候的薛部長我也有質詢過他"},{"start":10034.535,"end":10051.794,"text":"那時候他說承諾會盡快那我也查了貴部4月份公布的立法計畫其中有預定說要在6月這上面有寫6月要預告這個要修正開發行為應實施環境評估細目跟這個範圍認定標準但目前還沒有看到內容請問部長什麼時候會預告"},{"start":10053.055,"end":10081.228,"text":"報告委員這個我們已經跟能源署還有包含的太陽光電業者相關的業者我們有在討論他們有特別來找我來瞭解這個細寒所以我們廣大各界的意見我們預計在6月底應該就會公告對部長因為身為環境部對於這個環境的造成的傷害的這些要怎麼樣去平衡包含穩定能源跟經濟發展跟環境的部分這環境部部長要拜託您要多用點心思沒問題沒問題"},{"start":10082.168,"end":10093.997,"text":"好再來就進到今天的主要的主題跟廢棄物相關的部分首先我想要先問你一個基本的概念和問題請問部長你認為合理的廢棄物政策為何這個方向應該是什麼"},{"start":10095.231,"end":10116.098,"text":"基本上所有的物質都不應該是廢棄物它應該是可以回收的但是如果沒有辦法支援回收才會變成廢棄物所以我們終極的目標就是這個等於是零廢棄所以我也想說我這邊想要講的是我們是不是可以有效的建立一個有效追蹤不污染環境的圖案"},{"start":10116.558,"end":10136.157,"text":"處理體系是為一個標準這個是我們的目標那今天就想要來問一下有關這個事業廢棄物中這個營建廢棄物的問題那營建廢棄物是包含這個一般大型公共工程公司行號或是中小型店面跟這個家庭裝修的營建廢棄物"},{"start":10137.398,"end":10166.249,"text":"那這些廢棄物當然是必須持有清除執照的環保公司清運那其產生的量跟處理量也需向環保單位申報那可以看到這個圖在2021年的時候環境部的前身的環保署統計資料為例全台營建廢棄物約有214萬公噸這個每年而營建廢棄物最多的縣市包含著這上面也是新北市台中市為前兩名"},{"start":10166.969,"end":10195.495,"text":"大概統計的圖可以看到這個圖那我想要問的是這個圖上是否已經有效的掌握全台的真實營建廢棄物的流向跟數量基本上現在已經有很顯著的分流管理然後針對它的產源跟流向的這個追蹤而且它每一台車都有一些證明的文件所以每一次說要顯著的要上網申報例如說它什麼地方產生然後到哪裡去結束所以我們甚至還有一個路上會攔檢透過GPS方式來去檢查"},{"start":10196.155,"end":10216.248,"text":"所以部長你的意思是說你已經有效的掌握全台這個真實廢棄物的流向跟數量嗎?跟委員報告那我們如果是說大型的一個建物的話那就是用那個連單的方式來管制但是因為我們在家裡裝修有時候是找一些這個裝修的這個設計工作的"},{"start":10216.656,"end":10237.944,"text":"人員來那比較屬於個人產生的所以現在就是用產生員證明文件好來做後端的所以署長你的意思是說你覺得你們已經很有效的掌握這個全台的真實流向人數量嗎有嗎其實還是有一些還是對好我跟你說我要跟你說完全錯誤你們這裡有非常大的漏洞這是官方統計的資料但是我要給你看下一個"},{"start":10239.11,"end":10252.119,"text":"除了官方統計的數量之外其實有許多部分的營建跟這個裝潢廢棄物都交由勤運業者運送到俗稱戰宅廠的地方部長知道這是具體是怎麼做的嗎這是沙石戰場對"},{"start":10257.251,"end":10275.908,"text":"其實這就是民間業者對於這個住家翻新跟改造所衍生的這個營建廢棄物管理功能的這個砂石戰場的俗稱那也就是雖然沒有合法登記但確實真實存在在民間的這個中心處理這些廢棄物的中心那你知道他們處理量是多少嗎?"},{"start":10276.898,"end":10294.842,"text":"他們的處理量是因為有些他是沒有申報的項目不過因為這些沙災戰場目前已經在轉型中了在新北上就土地化了我給你看一下結論這些沒有受到監管的這個戰災場當然跟所有的我們的包含環境部經濟部跟其他主管機關有關當然"},{"start":10297.743,"end":10315.338,"text":"這些地方是沒有廢棄物的統計真實的數字啊但是從媒體的追蹤報導我們可以看到這有追蹤報導跟這個新北市站場的這個同業工會理事長他們去稍微計算一下單單新北市一年進到這個站宅場的這個營建廢棄物規模就高達126萬噸"},{"start":10318.007,"end":10336.037,"text":"對吧?那如何計算出來的呢?這上面我帶給你看一下喔。新北大概之前約有68家啦,這個站在場。每天平均收到的這個約25台,載滿約4立方公尺的從裝潢啦,從營建工程產出的廢棄物。"},{"start":10337.237,"end":10357.887,"text":"那一天最少產生6800立方公尺的廢棄物那如果用廢棄物平均密度大概0.52噸每立方公尺換算成重量的話一年就是有126萬噸那約是官方統計全台216萬噸的六成那這也是他們去估算的那部長你覺得這些處理的廢棄物"},{"start":10359.383,"end":10387.907,"text":"的量是不是佔比很高?這些沒有統計到的是不是佔比很高?根委員報告那就是因為這個沙子戰場其實它有來自於我們剛剛講過的裝修的還有我們來自於事業那來自於裝修因為它從產線就沒辦法掌握所以現在我們利用一個這個這個產線證明文件而且有建立平台的方式那同時把這個沙子戰場呢建立合法化讓它土地合法化它現在在申請這個處理機構在內我知道所以我要告訴你也是說這些統計是沒有有效追蹤的"},{"start":10388.968,"end":10400.422,"text":"現在看到這個加起來非常驚人如果光是台中加上新北的239萬公噸它就大於剛剛我說的官方統計的這是一個很大的問題對這個是一個問題"},{"start":10404.844,"end":10405.724,"text":"而且再來我們看下一張"},{"start":10425.729,"end":10453.986,"text":"根據經濟部統計這個是經濟部統計的數量來說他說每年臺灣營建廢棄物的產出高達7000萬噸欸這跟剛剛的數字又差異非常的大這跟環境部自己統計的數量落差非常大喔所以顯見這個是不是沒有對此掌握沒有相當的足夠是各位報告那因為他有這個剩餘土石方然後另外就是有混合物那剩餘土方因為我們把它當成天然的一個砂石"},{"start":10454.446,"end":10460.371,"text":"所以由這個國土署他他會來有一個地方這個自治條例方式好去讓進入土資廠"},{"start":10461.57,"end":10484.615,"text":"所以你沒有跟經濟部溝通過他這個數字是怎麼算出來的?內政部國土署但是這裡是循環經濟推動辦公室經濟部轄下的單位他寫出來的在他的網站上那應該是我們的辦公室有匯整各部會的那個廢棄物的一個統計數字那營建的方式內政部署管可能那我可以請你們再去把這個數據"},{"start":10485.805,"end":10512.853,"text":"跟跨單位的去好好的瞭解清楚究竟是多少嗎?因為這裡寫出7000萬公噸然後剛剛所有的官方數據是兜不起來的。細節的部分你可以拜託追根究底嗎?因為剛好說要有效的追蹤對吧?對對對。因為攝影廚房其他的量非常大大概6000萬噸那營建混互是這個比較少少了很多。嗯。所以說大概那等於是你覺得大約有1000萬公噸"},{"start":10515.11,"end":10523.16,"text":"幾百萬的那跟現在的數據還是有很大的差異所以要拜託你們可不可以去瞭解完之後給本席一份報告"},{"start":10525.646,"end":10548.206,"text":"因為這個數據讓人覺得很恐怖,因為7000萬公噸裡面即便只要有一層的業者亂處理的話就有700萬公噸所以吳怪乎這個媒體就報導在光是台61線的台中彰化雲林跟嘉義段周邊的地區就有超過300個棄置點所以這是本席很擔心的這個黑數的部分"},{"start":10548.866,"end":10558.721,"text":"那其中還有高達65%是位於農業跟養殖用地然後我自己統計了一下今年被查獲亂到且有上新聞的就有像下表這麼多"},{"start":10560.171,"end":10585.302,"text":"就已經在15件吧?部長總不可能把這個查或當成是績效我跟前幾個禮拜還在跟保七總隊總隊長見面我們要加強查締所以這是也是績效之一啦真的我們加強查締我們兩個部會合作檢警調環密切合作好這部分我們期待就是部長到時候因為我這裡有整理了一下剛剛所說的所有的架構喔您看一下這個圖喔其實"},{"start":10587.657,"end":10612.01,"text":"可能造成營建廢棄物被亂倒的結構圖表裡面目前當然剛剛環境部你們有在講你有兩項政策一個是這個站宅廠的轉型成為這個營建廢棄物處理機構然後並且希望2026年可以全面落日轉型想要請問這進度有辦法達到嗎2026年現在正在跟這個環保局那一起來這個合作我們會來這個你覺得這進度可以達到嗎"},{"start":10615.207,"end":10636.127,"text":"我們會努力來達到努力啦我真的努力啦因為這個其實有很多的面向要處理然後第二部分喔好那第二部分這部分希望你們可以盡全力來做這樣子的努力喔那第二部分是今年5月10號那個資源循環署上線了新的這個營建及廢棄這個裝潢廢棄物流向管理平台"},{"start":10637.208,"end":10665.589,"text":"我剛剛還是一樣的問題你有辦法有效的掌握廢棄物的流向嗎?又能夠保證未來不會被作假至少在營建廢棄物上不再被亂清到嗎?是是那因為裝修廢棄物我們就是讓輕運業者他有一個這個產業證明文件我們在路上攔查用平台的方式那如果是說你在輕運業者沒有這個有一個後面的產生我們就可以來處罰他那這部分也不會去干擾到我們這個家戶因為家戶我們總不能讓家戶他還要去做申報"},{"start":10666.149,"end":10666.669,"text":"接下來請洪森翰委員發言"},{"start":10710.592,"end":10716.958,"text":"謝謝主席 那請彭部長 請彭部長 彭委員好"},{"start":10718.735,"end":10742.092,"text":"部長好,部長今天因為我們要討論的主題是關於這個廢棄物來處理的主題這當然是環境部一個非常非常重要的業務其實也是影響很多一般的人他的生活非常非常巨大的這個業務其實我們在廢棄物處理裡面我們其實常常都會在很多新聞上面看到很多亂象"},{"start":10743.717,"end":10770.396,"text":"包括很多這個違法的氣質啊倒在農田裡啊也包括剛剛廖委員講的這個新北的店舖的問題喔但沒有錯但是其實新北店舖一直以來一個很大的問題是因為地方政府對於合法的廠商跟合法的土地的取得其實不夠積極所以才會造成一個非常非常大的這個讓我們很多的業者走在一個合法的"},{"start":10771.337,"end":10796.711,"text":"跟非法之間模糊地帶的空間產生剛才這個巨大的掉落狀況甚至我們看到很多新北市的廢棄物接下來就沿著台61往中南部不斷的傾倒跟運送這是我之前一直追蹤的事情所以我說在廢棄物問題裡面我們會看到很多表層的現象可是實質上面真正根源的問題我覺得這是現在環境部必須來面對跟必須來解決的問題"},{"start":10798.412,"end":10819.942,"text":"今天環境部接下來說我們要來開始來推動這個資源循環促進法我覺得這很好這尤其是他有一個二法合一的概念是把過去的廢棄物清理法跟資財法資源回收再利用法二法合一來去處理但我覺得還是必須先回到我們整體在廢棄物治理上面有幾個最大的根本的問題下一張"},{"start":10822.113,"end":10851.257,"text":"以上這四個是我們現在來看臺灣廢棄物處理我覺得是非常非常根源的四個問題第一個目前我們來促進產源發展資源循環的模式的政策工具其實非常非常的不足我們雖然喊了循環經濟這樣子的政策的目標可是實際上面政策工具是不足的第二件事情是這邊應該是環境部不是環保署環境部和其他部會在廢棄物分工協調的界面不夠清楚"},{"start":10852.472,"end":10881.295,"text":"第三個 廢棄物處理的量能不足包括後端去化的管道受阻 這大家談很多再來一個是再利用的產品確實現在很多是沒有市場的所以造成很多是假再利用真氣質的這個問題我認為這裡面是很多是我們現在看到表層問題以下實質發生的狀況實質發生的根源的問題會在這些地方所以如果我們現在來檢視接下來環境部想要推動的資源循環促進法"},{"start":10882.156,"end":10911.272,"text":"到底有沒有效到底規劃的好不好設計的好不好我認為重點就會是在這幾個最重要的問題上面有沒有拿得出具體的法規工具放到我們的資源循環促進法裡面來去克服這些問題所以部長我現在想跟你請教就你覺得以第一個我們談到資源循環模式的政策工具不足現在在我們的資源循環促進法裡面有哪些工具可以處理"},{"start":10912.837,"end":10927.423,"text":"報告委員其實我看了他們的法令132條初步的法令我們還沒有預告但是我是發現說第一個是非常難懂所以各個利害團體都有不一樣的聲音跟意見"},{"start":10928.223,"end":10947.782,"text":"所以其實目前而且我也問了署長說我們跟經濟部這邊怎麼分工其實過去還是環保署的這個思維那我的確很鼓勵我們同仁說我們應該環境部我們他們做的我們其實我們是政策主管機關我們應該扛下來所以其實我們鼓勵說我們"},{"start":10949.904,"end":10967.116,"text":"雖然是機關選手但是我們做的應該是循環經濟的事情所以我們把我們的目標稍微擴大一點所以現在呢我的確是要他們能夠把這個所謂的不管這個行業所有的這個上下游的關係都要把它湊集在一起重新再看一次這個法令然後才能解決你說的問題"},{"start":10967.856,"end":10994.083,"text":"部長你現在講的部分我有部分我同意當然可以跟部長繼續討論我認為環境部想要把這相關的工作一肩扛起來我認為這個想法是好的可是我覺得也必須看得到環境部在自己的部會權責上面還是恐怕會有自己遇到的局限這還是在部會權責上面切分上面遇到的局限所以我其實之前也一直跟賴署長強調"},{"start":10996.816,"end":11019.667,"text":"我認為今天完全要單靠環境部自己一個部門尤其是接下來的這個資源循環署搞定這整個事情我認為難度是非常非常高的因為談到循環經濟沒有錯該做循環經濟可是你就是有很多工作你沒有辦法取代經濟部作為一個產業推動單位的角色啊"},{"start":11021.448,"end":11045.693,"text":"你就是很難取代內政部在建築業上面很多從一開始產業政策規劃的角色這件事情你就是需要他們大力的協助你雖然我知道部長可能是不希望環境部再像過去只是末端管制可是他們這些角色對不起環境部恐怕一時半刻之間就是很難直接的去取代所以環境部勢必"},{"start":11046.753,"end":11067.364,"text":"要去規劃出一個怎麼來去協調其他部會尤其是經濟部尤其是內政部包括農業部因為也包括農業廢棄物這幾個相關部會的合作工作的界面我覺得這件事情很重要當然我們現在在你們看到之前提出來的草案的版本裡面你們有把目的世界主管機關的權責有放到法規裡面這我們有看到"},{"start":11068.925,"end":11086.285,"text":"我覺得值得鼓勵可是工作協調的界面接下來我認為是這整套體系能不能運作起來的關鍵可是現在在法裡面有這樣的設計嗎部長目前是有的有那目前就是我們有一個是促進管理會那同時會有一個計畫那會報行人來核定"},{"start":11087.014,"end":11103.246,"text":"所以我會扛下來這個事情就是說委員提到的我非常的贊成蘇長蘇長我要說處理管理會當然有這個用意可是我們都知道處理管理會以處理管理會的設計跟組成其實大部分是希望能夠廣納各方面包括專家學者利害相關方的意見"},{"start":11104.704,"end":11120.509,"text":"它的功能主要是廣納意見可是接下來你跟跨部會上面是有非常非常大量的工作協調你是需要很大量的幕僚能量這件事情反倒跟促進這個管理委員會的角色之間是不是這麼"},{"start":11121.869,"end":11147.289,"text":"一致我認為這事情環保環境部應該再回去討論因為這個委員會的做法是廣納意見廣納專業上面大家可以建議的idea這事情我不反對可是你實際上面是有一大堆的工作協調的事情這是為什麼我們之前有跟環境部提出我認為其實應該在這法裡面要有一個跨部會的協調的工作的辦公室或者是委員會是主要以執行為"},{"start":11148.97,"end":11167.404,"text":"實行跟協調任務為主的部分要有這樣的設計當然這也要其他部會願意同意可是我還是希望能夠把這個想法還是請彭部長再帶回去研議一個月的時間裡面因為這個界面是很複雜的之前為什麼我們有這麼多的工作做得坦白說我覺得這個做得並不好的原因我也不完全怪"},{"start":11168.425,"end":11171.208,"text":"我現在說的是說我覺得應該在這法裡面把工作界面協調界面給規劃清楚我覺得這是整套體系能不能運轉出來關鍵部長沒有問題吧"},{"start":11188.945,"end":11191.688,"text":"最後我要跟部長提醒其實我們在這裡面還非常非常關注的一個問題是"},{"start":11207.808,"end":11232.502,"text":"其實過去台灣一直以來有我們所謂的回收體系跟回收網絡照理來說回收體系跟回收網絡在城市裡面它扮演一個非常非常重要的角色其實它應該也是我們在資源循環上面的關鍵人物跟關鍵角色可是這幾年我們過去透過回收基金透過基管會的一些經濟模式的運轉是有一些突破可是這幾年我們也看到"},{"start":11233.899,"end":11259.851,"text":"運轉起來越來越辛苦所以我們有很多包括前面的再利用業者大盤商中盤商甚至到最基層的實荒實荒者其實在這幾年裡面工作都遇到非常非常大的困難生技上都遇到非常大的困難我這邊秀出這個照片這在我們城市裡面應該是常常看到的照片他們工作非常非常辛苦可是收入非常非常微薄我在這邊想跟部長提出一個邀請部長願不願意跟我一起去"},{"start":11260.791,"end":11288.045,"text":"我們來體驗一下實荒之收者他們的工作他們的一天部長願不願意不願意一天啦但我們一起來體驗看看大家就知道從這些在城市裡面的實荒者的角度到底我們的回收相關的工作是怎麼運轉的到底遇到什麼問題遇到什麼困境為什麼他們離尊嚴勞動這麼遙遠部長可不可以嗎我願意而且我會帶我們的署長一起去參加機管會要一起喔大家都一起來齁"},{"start":11289.105,"end":11300.137,"text":"我覺得我們要從基層的視角第一線的視角最底層的視角來看我們的回收體系到底出了什麼問題謝謝部長今天同意我們今天來規劃我們會來跟部長邀請謝謝沒問題謝謝好謝謝洪森翰委員"},{"start":11304.415,"end":11319.731,"text":"現在處理臨時提案總共一案請宣讀考量垃圾資源回收焚化廠營運階段提供回饋金要點為83年公告實施迄今已逾30年又各縣市焚化廠進廠費益逐年提升"},{"start":11320.711,"end":11347.022,"text":"顯見要點時有修正必要．已符合時宜．原件請環境部於3個月內會商相關單位及各縣市完成修訂該回饋要點提案人委員黃秀芳 王振旭 林月琴 廖偉祥宣讀完畢請問行政單位有沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見就照案通過臨時提案全部處理完畢"},{"start":11354.039,"end":11373.495,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員、林楚英委員、林楚英委員不在接下來請羅廷偉委員、羅廷偉委員、羅廷偉委員不在接下來請何欣淳委員、何欣淳委員、何欣淳委員不在接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":11373.975,"end":11389.609,"text":"接下來請謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員不在接下來請黃婕委員、黃婕委員、黃婕委員不在接下來請伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員不在接下來請游皓委員、游皓委員、游皓委員不在那先休息五分鐘"},{"start":11401.195,"end":11403.256,"text":"先休息五分鐘,喝個水。"},{"start":11423.26,"end":11424.301,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11444.394,"end":11465.179,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":11475.908,"end":11481.812,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11710.592,"end":11711.293,"text":"好現在繼續開會請劉建國委員請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":11723.315,"end":11742.844,"text":"來有請部長請彭部長你看我沒有來部長很多就這麼少人在問你我也好那你就要擔心了謝謝好謝謝召我今天排這個專欄來報告來做討論那最主要就是廢棄物的暫存量逐年攀升"},{"start":11744.325,"end":11760.725,"text":"為什麼會逐年攀升：廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃我想新部長要有新氣象但是這個老問題也需要新部長用新的思維來做面對我這邊先請部長看這個照片"},{"start":11762.366,"end":11777.611,"text":"這個叫白匯新粒環保局坦承支援回收進焚化爐網友探被糟蹋然後就主要是民眾在辛苦在家分裂結果到頭還是做白工他還是進到這個焚化爐另外還有2023市彰化縣的這個西州焚化爐"},{"start":11783.633,"end":11800.859,"text":"福大廠在做落地檢查﹖那就發現有一包含有這個滋收物﹖滋有回收物﹖達15件以上﹖或除以50%以上﹖他立即來將這個全車退回﹖重新分類﹖並寄聯要求清潔隊至福文化廠接受教育訓練"},{"start":11802.58,"end":11829.775,"text":"公所的清潔隊不得不落實垃圾破帶檢查也因此這個去年的垃圾量減少到5000公噸以上那就相當於1000台以上的垃圾車的這個量那我是想說從2018一直到2023臺灣的這個整個回收的制度還是充滿著問題那這個問題我們就要面對不然再看一個這個表格這是近6年"},{"start":11830.715,"end":11836.643,"text":"近6年的臺灣整個生產的一般加護的垃圾量平均還在400多萬公噸左右"},{"start":11840.868,"end":11855.058,"text":"我們看這個表格是紅色的數字這個基本上除了110年降到389萬多那其他平均都在400多甚至到112年已經來到480幾萬然後你再看這6年的資源垃圾的成長從107年480幾一直到現在已經來到了620幾萬"},{"start":11870.749,"end":11890.694,"text":"解決高升我不曉得臺灣人民很努力的在配合政策然後大家也都有資源回收分類的這樣的一個概念或經驗大家都在落實但是這個支出為什麼會解決上升然後一般垃圾的處理量也卻沒有降下來"},{"start":11892.517,"end":11918.113,"text":"報告委這個有幾個因素啦齁其實這個資源回收的增加最主要就是說我們的網購盛行之後有很多的這個大型的這個這個箱子等等這個進入到這個回收這個是真的成長的非常非常的多那另外一個呢就是我們剛有提到的就是算法例如說我們現在把很多的這個例行性的非例行性排除的垃圾把它算進去所以有幾年的確是在升高當中啦"},{"start":11918.513,"end":11944.409,"text":"所以這個其實是例如說我舉例像這個燒金紙燒金紙在我們的這個裡面有4點多趴我們以前都不會算在這裡面現在算進去因為集中燒金紙我們推行這個政策降低空污那甚至還有一個大型活動的這個垃圾也會進來所以也讓整個垃圾量突然逐漸的一個增高當然目前最主要還是國內因為疫情國內人這個國人生活型態的改變外食比例也變多"},{"start":11945.339,"end":11964.929,"text":"OK外資比例偏多去增加這個量我可以我倒可以接受但是你想說燒金紙這4%算進去這裡面對對現在的算法就是112年之後這個跳高的原因就是說包含燒金紙或是大型活動或是工程美化災害等等全部都要我們算法我們算的也比以前精準了啦"},{"start":11965.669,"end":11981.278,"text":"是112年才算進去?112年算但之前107年的話是又把這個所謂的員工一般的公司的員工攀升的廢棄物也算進來所以這個以前是沒有算得那麼好啦我們現在全部一個一個都當成是一般廢棄物所以這個數據就會往上走"},{"start":11984.96,"end":11996.948,"text":"部長你的意思是說113年把這個邵俊德4%順進去還有其他最多的還是大型活動大型活動以前大型活動就當成是事業廢棄物在處理現在把它歸類於一般廢棄物"},{"start":11999.397,"end":12013.362,"text":"但如果這樣對照前一年來講也也也只不過增加多少827扣掉799對所有多少33萬噸33萬噸對啊對對我覺得應該不是這樣比例吧就是111年開始是有把那個開始放進去啦114我說錯了111年"},{"start":12021.621,"end":12039.131,"text":"那這樣我就要看你們的細項了你這樣講我覺得有點奇怪我覺得這樣這個統計數據它的來源好像不是不是很精準那這樣這個源頭的一個處理的情況就這麼不精準難怪你這個相關的數量會節節的攀升啊而且會居高不下"},{"start":12039.731,"end":12064.947,"text":"以前的算法的確是籠統就是從源頭這樣分類多少現在是項目項目都有了那我就麻煩新部長道論是不是把你們的什麼計算方式重新定義清楚換得定清楚然後讓我們做參考好不好沒問題我們到時候就可以做這個相關比較嘛但是另外有一點就是地方的環保局會不會只挑這個高價的吃蔬物再利用處理嘛那其他的低價的吃蔬物也因為處理麻煩"},{"start":12067.269,"end":12083.296,"text":"沒有任何價值,像餐盒之類的還是即便民眾分裂之後,最後還是盡到文化的意圖,會不會這樣?餐具類的我們是有補貼,我們還是會去督導說有些地方青年隊,因為他有時候飆售他就"},{"start":12084.036,"end":12084.216,"text":"有些是這樣子"},{"start":12102.779,"end":12121.455,"text":"好 那我們這邊會來這個來這個輔導你們怎麼好意思回答我說有些就是這樣那這樣你叫你叫百姓去陪你們做資源回收到底是什麼你最終還是到婚禮去啊的確是少數啦 那我們沒有你的少數是幾趴沒有沒有沒有 書長講清楚你的少數是幾趴你的少數是幾趴 講清楚是是是"},{"start":12123.903,"end":12149.098,"text":"我相信你們相關有統計的數據你讓我們知道如果資源回收是這樣再做處理那你這個政策顯然還有執行力確實是很大的問題存在的因為有些地方的青葉隊他有時候我們還是需要去輔導他然後才能夠完全按照我們的方式來做台灣的資源回收已經做幾年了我們到現在還用輔導這兩個字"},{"start":12151.796,"end":12168.365,"text":"這不對吧?你今天不落入針對整個你要進場的這些垃圾 迫待檢查 如果查到說你的失蹤物已經高過多少或怎麼樣全部就是退回 然後還要祭典 然後還到那個地方去做教育訓練"},{"start":12169.844,"end":12185.757,"text":"你只要你只要強硬起來的情況之下他可以馬上一年的幾乎可以減少減少到5000噸然後相當於1000台我剛剛開場白就講這些話了但如果你現在把他視而不見他用輔導的方式去做處理這麼軟性的的手段在做處理"},{"start":12186.698,"end":12211.45,"text":"那你當然會高居不下啊你當然站不下來啊這個也是原因之一啊絕對不是成為部長你現在接受到的訊息這樣而已嘛我覺得這大大有問題勒我們台灣跟人家講說我們的自由回收做了多進步啊怎麼會人民百姓配合的情況之下你把這些東西因為它低價所以你沒辦法處理所以你現在用輔導的方式欸這沒道理勒你講這個不通吧"},{"start":12214.045,"end":12227.539,"text":"報告委員這個數據上我會在來跟我們同仁一起來把它一個一個把它算清楚好不好請部長不斷慎重面對這個事情看怎樣處理另外就是說部長也有講過環境部要來做數位轉型這個我絕對700%支持"},{"start":12229.841,"end":12254.991,"text":"就像這種製作物被丟進戶外的老問題有沒有辦法透過AI的科技來做怎樣處理我為什麼會這麼講這個是新北它最厲害它現在已經有的第一台AI的這個手臂快速分類回收物它的精確識別紙類的紙容器的塑膠體力罐等17類的製作物省去人工分選的人力而且快速的把這個製作物挑選出來為什麼只有他們有"},{"start":12258.074,"end":12258.357,"text":"主席"},{"start":12260.967,"end":12289.04,"text":"報告委員,委員所指導的這一個部分其實在宜蘭、新北跟現在嘉義我們都在試辦就是說剛才委員特別提到就是說近文化場其實那些支收物15件以上等等這個制度現在全國其實都有這個制度那為了更瞭解它的熱值跟辨別支收所以有這一個試辦計畫正在進行那如果它現在辨識率大概80%左右"},{"start":12290.802,"end":12307.564,"text":"大概還要兩年的一個訓練如果成功的話我們會推廣到所有文化場以上為什麼先選擇這三個縣市新北、嘉義還有宜蘭嘛對不對是的他們這三個縣市的製作物就是像我講的就是非常不落實通常建文化路所以優先他們選擇"},{"start":12308.345,"end":12332.625,"text":"不是因為它畢竟是一個做錯事反而先有AI的東西可以使用沒有沒有他們的分類非常好而且很積極然後願意跟我們來合作這件事情畢竟它是一個新的技術所以這三個縣市就是因為分類特別好很積極沒有成如剛才署長所講的這個狀況持續發生所以我們有AI新的這樣的一個技術所必就讓他們可以來先行試用試辦以之獎勵嘛應該是這麼講嘛對不對"},{"start":12335.747,"end":12337.429,"text":"這一個制度其實以往是用牧師的檢查"},{"start":12361.767,"end":12379.288,"text":"那我們是希望他以前叫做抽查嘛現在希望能夠普查如果有AI技術他就可以普查是這個意思你沒有回答我問題嘛這三個縣市是就是做得不錯所以我們在事辦就優先讓他們有這個AI的技術所必來做篩選嘛對不對"},{"start":12380.909,"end":12408.322,"text":"應該我們就是用這樣鼓勵我覺得我覺得不為過啦我覺得不為過喔因為你不可能因為在事辦的過程裡面你不可能一次全國全國22個縣市都來做這個事情嘛所以你當然會選擇就是說你跟跟我們這個政策比較落實去執行的跟中央比較配合的然後也做比較淋漓盡致的我當然有這樣的先進的這個AI的這個篩選的手臂來讓你優先事辦OK啊減少你們的人力嘛"},{"start":12409.563,"end":12430.063,"text":"但是相對的我要表達就是相對的其他的18個縣市到底是出了什麼狀況18個縣市在廢棄物的進場上面也沒有出特別的狀況其實剛才委員第一句話就已經講了尤其是彰化那個案例那個案例其實是全國都有訂定進場的允售標準所以"},{"start":12430.623,"end":12451.634,"text":"很多人在講究說垃圾這個資收物會進到文化廠這件事情而實際上文化廠如果發現有資收物進入他就有那一套機制在做那所以我們是覺得這個部分可能還要再釐清啦那個文化廠這套制度我們覺得做得還不錯而且我們有垃圾的一個檢查"},{"start":12453.955,"end":12469.134,"text":"我覺得是這樣,要怎麼去釐清,問署長就清楚了嘛,因為署長剛才就已經打呼我,他有掌握嘛,確實很多有這個狀況發生嘛,只不過是不是有沒有很精細的去掌握他的狀況到底是什麼樣嘛"},{"start":12471.143,"end":12492.053,"text":"所以 署長剛剛你要提出來的問題署長剛剛已經答覆你的所以我現在我要具體這樣要求請部長待會研究好不好一個月來提出這相關報告第一個就針對全國各縣市的垃圾婚禮事件回收是否有落實執行進行一個大盤點那到底有多少資收物被送進葡萄園"},{"start":12492.873,"end":12521.738,"text":"我覺得我們有責任要去做掌握啦這個報告是不是可以一個月給委員會來做參考這第一個第二個就是說針對這個輔助的回收還有這個分選等AI的智能相關技術進行相關預算的評估啦就像你們現在已經做這樣的一個處理嘛那是不是可以普及嘛但是我知道他還是要test一段時間差不多多久你的預算規模要到多少"},{"start":12523.419,"end":12547.255,"text":"如果大家來面對這個事情大家都覺得是認可的我相信委員會也會去支持你們嘛但是可能是不是要讓我們知道你們的評估方式還有評估這個預算的規模達到什麼樣的程度還有他的精準你說到保温 剛才次長師說講到80%嘛是不是可以有效再提升的這個情況的相關報告也可以給委員會來做倡導可以吧 可以可以好 謝謝部長 謝謝委員 謝謝主席"},{"start":12549.36,"end":12572.4,"text":"好謝謝劉建國委員的發言接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接下來請陳冠廷委員發言我們請環境部部長請彭部長這位好"},{"start":12577.793,"end":12591.54,"text":"部長好,部長我之前我們在路上僑月的時候我就有提到說我們針對這一個快時尚的部分要來做討論那在前部長的時候我們有提到說這個紡織品循環指引"},{"start":12594.451,"end":12621.325,"text":"但是我發現到這個指引是採取自願性協議的模式然後給予標誌部長目前環境部針對紡織品的這個循環指引有沒有任何制度化的經濟層面的誘因像是像是怎麼講企業減稅啊或者是抵碳稅啊等等的折扣額度啊或者只是單純的用認證的標章模式啊如果只是用認證的標章模式你覺得這有足夠來吸引消費者嗎"},{"start":12622.813,"end":12648.505,"text":"報告委員其實目前才剛開始所以我們其實是目前只有把建立這個商業模式一開始為主所以我們要了解一下這個情形所以未來應該是會跟採購端跟供應商我們建立一個媒合平台但是這個其實也必須說也要跟國人再教育因為有些的業像我自己買有時候鞋子他告訴我們鞋底磨破了我要去換那有些業者就說不換"},{"start":12649.145,"end":12674.355,"text":"叫我買一個新的那我就從此不會去那一家買鞋子其實這個要需要我們彼此觀念的要能夠提倡起來謝謝部長那我這邊有個建議我是建議說包含這個環境部的網站是不是能夠公開正面列表符合我們這個指引的業者或者是品牌名單我認為這對業者來說也是一個加分他們說他們完成了這件事情環境部有做這樣子的揭示"},{"start":12674.875,"end":12688.991,"text":"那這種正面的揭示對於業者自己本身的品牌形象或者是反映給消費者消費者也會有知道說我未來針對我所認同的我的價值觀特別是跟環境相關的話讓他知道是去哪裡消費這個部分可不可以請"},{"start":12689.972,"end":12715.828,"text":"部長或者是部內來協助一下好謝謝委員這個現在因為只有3家3家品牌3家百貨所以我們應該會來考慮來做這個事情而且要大力的表揚我們會成立一個大聯盟把這些業者能夠去Promote他們的產品這個Promote他們的這個樣態非常好希望是未來當然是一定不會只有3家當我們有這樣的機制出現之後當這樣子的消費指引會成為新的常態之後會有更多的消費者去"},{"start":12716.889,"end":12732.959,"text":"去查詢我們環境部相關的網站這個到底有沒有符合就像飯店一樣現在有許多的飯店新級的飯店那他都會有特別標誌在他們的路口的明顯處他們有符合環境部的哪些指引是金職獎銀職獎還是銅職獎等等的"},{"start":12735.922,"end":12752.944,"text":"對於對這個議題有認可的人他就會請下去那邊消費所以就是雙贏的機制就會產生出來那我們希望未來紡織品當然更要這樣子那部長在你們今年年初那你們有提供機關跟公民營單位服事紡織品的循環採購指引"},{"start":12753.985,"end":12778.111,"text":"那有符合的業者或者是品牌名單我認為各單位採購的時候也可以更有方向那也鼓勵業者去投入這樣子的產業鏈所以相關的加分的機制等等的公營單位的話我需要有跨部會的討論有一個平台來講那這樣子對這不要是只作為一個部門就環境部只講環境部經濟部講經濟部國防部講國防部外交部講外交部其實這個"},{"start":12779.291,"end":12798.844,"text":"各個不同的部門行政的各個不同的這個部會都是一體的那有這樣的價值觀要把它協調起來那當然是更有幫助那還有另外一個方式齁就是每一個紡織品都要好幾個側標籤那我們能不能夠請業者主動揭露是否符合這個指引"},{"start":12802.401,"end":12829.504,"text":"因為我們這個指引還有平台那個平台大概是7月來成立那我想這部分我們可以在那個平台來提出來所以有認可我們這樣子的呼籲跟這樣子的倡議嗎?其實這個我有買過一些東西有些業者他都會自己來做那我們未來推動做法上也可能也會鼓勵有這樣的做法除了我們官方可以鼓勵之外鼓勵業者也可以有把這個logo或是相關的把它附上去"},{"start":12830.484,"end":12844.575,"text":"對,如果有經過我們官方認可的這個Logo才可以放上去,這樣子是有序時尚標示好,非常好那最後就是關於就業回收箱那113年的回收量的目標是10%明年是15%那應該沒有問題吧?"},{"start":12850.999,"end":12871.77,"text":"因為我看到一些快時商業者會在店鋪裡面他會提供就衣的回收箱但是如果沒有獎勵消費者比較難為了就衣回收特別開車到店鋪回收衣物是不是有可能串聯業者提供衣物的回收兌換現金或者是其他的超商折扣獎勵這樣子的做法"},{"start":12872.971,"end":12885.847,"text":"讓這個就醫的使用歷程能夠延長降低環境的負擔這樣的可能性有沒有啊部長這個我們會努力來嘗試看看跟這個業者來討論看看因為我們環境部過去有些措施有過這樣的經驗我們可以來努力一下"},{"start":12886.584,"end":12913.02,"text":"大家好謝謝部長我最後再看一下你們自己的這個資料嘛那紡織品的部分12年的目標是5%那13年的目標是10%1415 19年的目標是27%那我還是希望目標提出來我們就把它達成那剛才提中的這些建議有些東西是只要三五分鐘就能夠執行完畢特別是說把它放在我們的"},{"start":12914.08,"end":12915.301,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員的發言接下來請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":12950.308,"end":12953.106,"text":"謝主席本席邀請我們環境部彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":12956.406,"end":12976.077,"text":"好部長好部長一件事情跟你反映像石棉瓦這種建材它的粉塵有致癌的危險現在清理量統計出來全國最多在台南石棉瓦烏瓦全國有大概23%在台南市統計起來有54900多棟"},{"start":12980.749,"end":12984.933,"text":"這房子的數目啦占全國的總量大概20%啦占全國的總屋數大概23%那現在啊"},{"start":12992.348,"end":13013.647,"text":"我們環境部有在補助就是說大家要把這個東西給拆掉但是你補助的申請資格大概只分三類就是你要個人住家或者是農業等等設施、寺廟、教堂等等但是這五萬四千都動不是全部都在這三類裡面"},{"start":13015.267,"end":13039.842,"text":"那其他沒有在你補助範圍內的誰沒有啊你要叫人家自己拆啊通常啊你沒有給他補助那失去原來你補助的意義你既然要補助了為什麼不全數補助呢所以我們希望我們環境部是不是可以來協助你既然已經有補助的標準和對象"},{"start":13041.734,"end":13070.738,"text":"為什麼要再區分呢例如有些很多農會很多農會他的房舍其實因為臺南三十幾個農會很多房子都是日本時代下來的早期下來的那時候根本也不知道他的可怕那你既然要補助拆除那是不是可以議題適用全部都予以補助這兩個部長給你當參考好委員這個我們研議一下好不好因為這個拆除的部分還是要看說他這個屋主另外拆除的工作"},{"start":13071.545,"end":13097.886,"text":"有些也是國土署他們的這個範疇那環境部這邊呢我們的主責是處理把這個物品可以妥善處理好所以我們是去爭取經費把這個民眾來這個做處理對那你既然有這個辦法就是你希望不要再有這種東西的存在嘛是 對不對那你現在補助就補助一部分的範圍那其他的他失去一個動力動機嘛或者是說他自己花錢你就沒了"},{"start":13099.059,"end":13099.079,"text":"這農民吶"},{"start":13113.402,"end":13115.904,"text":"災種東西都用那種籠膜,我對你知道嗎?"},{"start":13115.904,"end":13135.502,"text":"我知道我用一個圖啦,我們在種鳳梨,你知道鳳梨,用鳳梨那個圖來看一下鳳梨田啦,其實不只種鳳梨啦,農民在很多的災種上,農地他都會用這種籠膜給他包起來我舉例子,像我們台南很多種種鳳梨,一定都要用這個啦"},{"start":13137.216,"end":13164.438,"text":"然後呢現在這種籠膜很難處理啦因為農民要自己處理啦清潔隊也不收啦因為它不是法定的回收物啊那業者回收意願也很低啦根本不要啊那農民怎麼辦很多就把它繳稅啦耕耘機把它繳稅留在田地裡面啊那就影響到第一個你有些植物的根等於在土裡面有這些塑膠的碎片啊"},{"start":13165.836,"end":13174.378,"text":"所以這種農謀我們要怎麼來處理?這個非常普遍,很多農地都有這種狀況農糧署合作他們會補助農民可以回收農謀的機器或說我要去把農謀佔置,把它去土的一些設施因為現在農民"},{"start":13188.992,"end":13195.657,"text":"對,現在農民都自己用很不環保的方式嘛是阿嬤頭小的啦,他們說阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿嬤阿�"},{"start":13217.279,"end":13227.085,"text":"收這種濃縮的機器嗎?現在有開始補助嗎?那我們廢棄物清理法是不是應該要公告啊?這種東西要不要回收?"},{"start":13229,"end":13255.638,"text":"因為這種東西齁地方這種處理以後地方這種回收地方這種負責處理嗎?是不是這樣子?因為這個是這個我們的產業廢棄物啦那所以收了之後呢由這個就是他會送到那個塑料廠去做載入如果說他把這個土都去掉之後不是因為有一個叫做公告因回收廢棄物嘛我覺得應該要把籠膜給納進來就等於你要強制回收啦這個你們是不是應該做這樣的一個考慮?"},{"start":13257.401,"end":13286.305,"text":"主要是說因為它的數量少啦那其實如果是把這個土去掉之後也可以是因為以前沒有回收你覺得數量少啦農田正常的大家也贏到對不對數量怎麼會少好不好因為一年現在是7000噸啦可能委員說的可能是40有可能更多啦對因為你覺得沒回收啊所以都沒錢沒用沒辦法自己收啊你現在如果公告強制回收的話那可能數量一定會比你現在看到的還要更多啦"},{"start":13286.645,"end":13287.026,"text":"接下來請陳穎委員發言"},{"start":13325.342,"end":13334.67,"text":"麻煩請部長,謝謝請彭部長總委員好部長好我們這一次討論的這個議題是有關於這個垃圾佔據場的問題可能也是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域那這個議題呢過去本席曾經質詢過但是我發現就是說其實這個問題的本質"},{"start":13352.525,"end":13381.259,"text":"其實是在於經濟而不是戰志的問題所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教就是說台灣目前的焚化爐跟公有的公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座目前是24加5好謝謝那在這個處理垃圾焚化還有失業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高失業廢棄物比較高對大概一噸大概一萬塊"},{"start":13383.724,"end":13389.091,"text":"一頓到一萬塊錢,那家用呢?家用三千塊,隨代徵收等等的一萬塊錢是哪幾家?"},{"start":13399.009,"end":13414.474,"text":"一萬塊進到哪裡的進我們焚化爐的話就是那個市費大概是就是青藥業者他跟這個這個業者來說大概一萬塊上下因為他沒有一個range嗎?每個都你說大概都一萬塊因為我們我們焚化廠就是有一個進場的那個收費標準"},{"start":13415.414,"end":13437.371,"text":"那一般市費的話可能大概是六七千塊左右那清楚因為我去看因為有分工有跟民營當然民營會比較高所以我們目前看到數據大概像這個簡報上面大概兩千多到七千五左右那一萬塊錢我也蠻好奇想看看瞭解一下看是哪些那"},{"start":13439.417,"end":13465.208,"text":"那就是一樣就是說既然這個事業廢棄物的費用這個燃粉燒的費用是比較高那這樣一樣都是在燒垃圾是不是會有這個先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以這個家庭民生廢棄物為優先所以有些這個家用的燒不完只好先放置會不會有這樣的情況"},{"start":13466.981,"end":13473.85,"text":"委員基本上這個是不會發生的因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中正在進行但是不是已經"},{"start":13475.492,"end":13500.537,"text":"就是其實就是簽合約就有在這樣的在進行當中但是並不是全面全面都是這個樣子嗎對對對所以所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題那我們先就是拋出這樣的一個概念這是很正常嗎大家就是收費希望賺錢嗎對啊有錢賺我就先做啊那所以以這個竹北BOO為例新竹縣每天產生的這個290噸的家用垃圾"},{"start":13504.739,"end":13527.909,"text":"這個焚化爐呢只願意收費然後燒250噸那當然就是說私有焚化爐基於這個成本的效益呢當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府那問題是說源頭的垃圾減費如果做不好所以這個家庭的這個垃圾量有增無減嗎"},{"start":13528.789,"end":13534.621,"text":"那燒不完的只好就先暫時放置了就暫置起來就不會演出"},{"start":13536.584,"end":13537.024,"text":"因為公有的焚化爐萬一"},{"start":13559.398,"end":13561.559,"text":"我們都有簽合約做規範所以基本上他要以我們的這個家用垃圾為主"},{"start":13581.872,"end":13599.122,"text":"好那你要確定都有落實才是因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責那你們有沒有每年去補助這個維運的這個費用還是就是說只有補助興建的費用"},{"start":13600.298,"end":13615.37,"text":"目前只有新建的費用,沒有是地方負責的那你們對於這個目前我們國家現有的焚化爐的處理量有全部都盤點過吧目前有,就等於說到116年的話會到700萬噸"},{"start":13622.341,"end":13635.826,"text":"這樣子夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物?因為我們過去老舊已經比較久了。現在是不足吧?現在是不足。那未來如果到700萬噸的話應該就可以夠了。所以你是說預計是?"},{"start":13644.27,"end":13660,"text":"116年底會到700那現在大概是680左右那個前提是如果都興建順利的話對興建順利的話然後每年大概會餘裕大概多幾十萬噸那就會把我們現在的這個野賣場的部分拿來去除"},{"start":13662.221,"end":13685.037,"text":"目前家庭與事業廢棄物收費標準是全國都一致?不一樣,因為那個是地方環保局他們在訂定這個標準,不是中央訂的。環境部你們能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎?應該是不行,因為那個是屬於地方環保局的事務。"},{"start":13686.431,"end":13697.027,"text":"我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準有沒有可能去減少這個兩者的差距我講的是失業廢棄物跟家庭"},{"start":13698.164,"end":13718.685,"text":"法規上可能制定上可能有一些就會讓這個經濟誘因可能就會跑出來你說沒有辦法我就要對你很失望了啊因為你是部長啊怎麼會沒有辦法這個上有政策下有對策那個有時候方法方法是人想出來的規矩法規是人定出來的嘛你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊"},{"start":13720.206,"end":13739.556,"text":"所以我剛剛這邊這個問題這樣設計問你是你很聰明你剛剛都已經知道這個賺錢這個誘因了嘛那所以我才說那你有沒有辦法有什麼樣的方法你可以去減少這個兩者收費的差距啊好這個我去想看看好不好給我一點時間"},{"start":13740.576,"end":13754.741,"text":"我一定會給你時間,這個要算清楚啊,方法也要想清楚啊因為我是對你很有信心,因為你那麼聰明謝謝委員,不敢不敢,謝謝謝謝還有這麼能力這麼好的兩位署長在旁邊幫忙我今天有在你額外,嚴署長"},{"start":13757.282,"end":13770.719,"text":"雖然你沒有穿粉紅色但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是一起搭的起來的那粉化爐呢這個處理的量能不足到底目前這樣是你覺得是什麼原因"},{"start":13771.625,"end":13787.867,"text":"目前因為是整改嘛,過去這幾年老舊了,現在整改後在未來這三五年如果真的可以上來之後,這個問題應該可以進一步解決所以有沒有這個分布不均還是說不足的問題的確有幾個縣市是還沒有焚化爐的目前還沒有"},{"start":13789.368,"end":13813.948,"text":"南投是沒有嗎?那上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們垃圾呢?對對對所以就是未來我們會不會再興建就是如果按照您剛剛有提到應該是還要再興建新的粉化爐希望每個縣市都有自己的可以自己處理的粉化爐因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收有時候遇到緊張的時候像最近臺東跟高雄就是有這樣的案例"},{"start":13815.049,"end":13837.278,"text":"那因為過去我舉過這個德國的案例那現在的技術燃燒出來的廢棄呢早已經就是遠低於這個排放標準了那很多的焚化爐有很多就是可以有多重的用途例如說發電啊溫泉啊還有這個旅遊跟環境教育但是我們為什麼每次在興建"},{"start":13838.318,"end":13841.661,"text":"對於這個溝通宣導的計劃有什麼樣的一個推動所以我想說部長你有沒有覺得說我們應該針對就是說未來這個宣導正確觀念的這個"},{"start":13867.881,"end":13870.726,"text":"這個計畫應該要好好的推廣一下不知道你們有沒有"},{"start":13871.738,"end":13899.875,"text":"已經有想到一些方式?其實現在我們有些焚化廠已經是環境教育的場所這個應該再多一點那我也跟委員報告我曾經有靠到國外一些游泳池或是MOB旁邊就是焚化爐而且在都市裡面我覺得很不可思議在台灣一定是嫌惡設施但是在英國等等他們就有這樣的做法所以我希望說跟委員報告我還沒有真的到過焚化爐看過等我一點點時間我去過SRF廠"},{"start":13901.816,"end":13916.337,"text":"但是彭樺如還沒有時間去看等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出想法我覺得你去其實剛剛重點是那個民眾對於這個刻板印象的一個改觀所以這個部分我想說為了"},{"start":13919.1,"end":13933.141,"text":"為了你未來這個遠大的計畫你一定要好好先讓大家扭轉大家的刻板印象我覺得這個是你所有這個新建未來要推動什麼計畫一切的一切的這個最優先要做的事情"},{"start":13934.022,"end":13955.677,"text":"好就做這樣的提醒所以最後還是要回到說問題的本質當這個垃圾處理已經變成這個差別費率這個就是已經是一個經濟的問題啦那而不是說單純工程技術或者是政治的問題所以呢這個經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的所以要請部長要判斷經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇"},{"start":13961.701,"end":13963.101,"text":"那我大概就提出這樣子的建議啦"},{"start":13982.648,"end":13986.772,"text":"給我一點點時間去思考如何進行因為30年前每當設置焚化廠跟掩埋廠的這些環保設施的時候環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾就是在抗爭"},{"start":14001.724,"end":14017.13,"text":"你們要積極主導各種溝通協調才有全國20多座大型垃圾焚花廠的完成其實過程是很辛苦的今天你們升格為環境部所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升該負擔的責任"},{"start":14020.371,"end":14033.135,"text":"現在看起來地方政府好像都跑到那邊去那反觀就是說縣市的資源和人力還是跟30年前一樣他沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升啊所以結果就是我們現在垃圾擺出的垃圾"},{"start":14035.356,"end":14056.665,"text":"台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重"},{"start":14058.025,"end":14080.996,"text":"我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題"},{"start":14081.516,"end":14104.951,"text":"好,那與其每天你們發新聞稿呢到處說我去哪裡查緝到多少的非法棄置好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了,這樣是不夠的啦所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到就是說我們環境部告訴民眾說我們出了垃圾山我已經清理處理完畢了"},{"start":14106.411,"end":14124.778,"text":"然後而且也要認真探討原因因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了那你們現在發布的新聞稿公佈的違法案件還是不斷的在攀升我想這樣是有問題的所以真正找出這個問題來才是你們中央應該有的格局"},{"start":14129.076,"end":14145.601,"text":"好謝謝委員其實我們成為部之後人力跟預算沒有增加太多啦真的還很少啦所以也請問委員多支持但是整個整體人力沒有增加身上署長多了好幾位那個薪水也會變多啊"},{"start":14146.561,"end":14148.042,"text":"謝謝陳銀委員的發言接下來請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":14183.807,"end":14185.775,"text":"我想請那個環境部部長請彭部長"},{"start":14190.628,"end":14217.162,"text":"葉委員好部長好我們今天討論廢棄物問題因為其實我們新北市的廢棄物其實還蠻嚴重你對我們新北市不知道狀況了不了解因為你剛剛上任嘛我們有三座焚化廠你曉得它總共一天可以處理多少垃圾嗎我數字記不得啦但是我從小在開公路看到五穀山然後被整治我就很有感觸那個跟焚化爐沒關係我們焚化爐有三座巴黎新店"},{"start":14217.862,"end":14232.941,"text":"還有樹林那總共一天是處理2700噸那現在一個很大的問題就是說因為我新北市的垃圾的焚化毒的量他並不能夠處理全部新北市他所產生的生活垃圾跟事業廢棄物沒有辦法總共2700沒辦法"},{"start":14234.483,"end":14262.1,"text":"現在光是清潔隊就2000噸一天要進2000噸只有700噸可以處理事業廢棄物所以這個事業廢棄的都要往外縣市去送我現在是希望說部長因為你們是中央你們比較知道各縣市的狀況應該要發揮協調的功能我現在舉一個我可以預測嚴重的問題就是明年巴黎的我們這邊巴黎的焚化爐就要整改那巴黎是我們新北市最大焚化爐它是一天要處理1200噸"},{"start":14263.781,"end":14286.02,"text":"換言之就是差不多近一半垃圾都是巴黎要處理那如果說由巴黎如果整個整改當然現在環保局的計畫是他要分機組嘛分年來整改可是他一定會遇到要整座停的狀況而且要停兩個月就會造成他可能有兩個月每天1200噸的垃圾沒辦法處理"},{"start":14290.53,"end":14317.323,"text":"你知道那個嘉麗嘉麗不是之前有個焚化爐也在整改嗎你知道他怎麼處理沒辦法處理的垃圾嗎你知道怎麼處理嗎打包的啦打包對不對所以他打包他的垃圾就堆在那邊嘛他整改完之後再回焚化廠回焚化廠就如果說你的焚化廠平常都燒不完的話你打包的那些垃圾也消化不了啦我現在的意思是說"},{"start":14318.7,"end":14346.231,"text":"那中央要怎麼去協調這個問題比如說明年我們巴黎焚化廠要整改的話那這一天一天一千兩百噸的垃圾你可以協調就是其他縣市有餘裕的部分可以讓我們新北市的垃圾進去燒啊然後第二個是如果中央因為我看到你們有把各縣市整改的計畫都列出來嘛代表說你會有這個時程嘛我不知道說環境部在"},{"start":14347.358,"end":14369.474,"text":"協調這一塊有沒有做啦?因為你不能夠讓全臺灣很多縣市的焚化爐同時在整改包括這個我們都有跨縣市跨區域的我們環關署就是在協調不能夠讓所有的焚化爐同時整改否則的話那我剛講的那個有關於巴黎焚化廠如果要整改環境部這邊可以提供什麼協助嗎?"},{"start":14370.675,"end":14398.694,"text":"是報告委員這樣子齁那個我們跟新北市環保局其實很密切啦我本身也是從新北市巴黎廠廠長擔任過廠長的食物經驗齁在這個部分我們跟他協調有幾個路徑第一個當然是協調到其他縣市是最佳嘛或者哪些縣市現在現在還沒大概還沒阿什麼時候要協調什麼時候要協調他只要我們跟環保局再來談"},{"start":14400.535,"end":14412.48,"text":"署長那個以前我在新北市做議員我常常關心這個議題啦環保局給我答案我都不滿意啦你現在給我答案也是在敷衍了因為垃圾如果沒辦法處理的話影響到是我們社區的民眾"},{"start":14413.67,"end":14438.88,"text":"我們因為垃圾的問題現在我們像我是來自板橋啦很多大型的社區他們大部分都是找清運公司在收垃圾但是因為清運公司他的垃圾沒有辦法進到焚化爐裡面所以他要往外縣市送所以他成本就提高了還有他會放掉一些小的客戶所以導致於後來的客戶他的成本越來越高他要付的這個費用就越來越高所以每一個人都感覺垃圾費漲啊"},{"start":14440.501,"end":14457.875,"text":"每個人都感覺這個社會長那歸根清源就是焚化爐的量不夠所以我現在聽署長的態度就是空話你要怎麼解決這個問題你要怎麼協助還是你覺得這是地方環保局的事還是請部長回答這個我們會協調啦怎麼協調嘛因為這個已經很多年的問題了啊"},{"start":14465.277,"end":14482.078,"text":"發委員那個剛才委員所擔心的這個垃圾我們這幾年來從來沒有一包垃圾是流落街頭的這個請委員報告費用就提高了嘛我剛講的不是只有垃圾流落街頭的問題第一個大家垃圾費就提高了嘛"},{"start":14483.308,"end":14506.22,"text":"然後很多社區因為他的本來找遷運公司然後垃圾費提高之後他就不找遷運公司他就改丟清潔隊然後清潔隊現在人力物力也不夠所以很多新型的社區希望垃圾車可以開到他的社區旁邊不願意開啊因為量能不夠啊所以你影響的不僅是一般的事業廢棄物你影響這社區的生活垃圾你也影響到一般的民眾啊"},{"start":14507.595,"end":14521.446,"text":"你現在只有告訴我說沒有流落街頭所以我就好棒棒可是我剛剛舉出來那些問題例如說他們在倒垃圾不方便倒垃圾的費用成本的增加這些你都沒有解決啊"},{"start":14523.081,"end":14543.071,"text":"所以我不知道說你們環境部你們對於垃圾這個問題KPI只要是路上看不到垃圾你就好棒棒是這個意思嗎各位報告當然這幾年我們是逐漸在推動一些設施因為我時間到了我希望說因為剛剛講的確實是很抽象"},{"start":14543.993,"end":14559.28,"text":"非常非常非常抽象可不可以請主席才示一下可不可以給我的問題非常具體好不好因為我們新北市就三座焚化爐巴黎焚化爐即將要整改而且現在也面臨到焚化爐不夠的問題請問一下中央怎麼協助地方來解決這件事情"},{"start":14560.06,"end":14576.691,"text":"你給我一個具體的方案好不好我拿著這個方案我去跟地方來討論我跟地方的協會來討論我跟地方的清潔隊社區來討論看有沒有可以在環境部這邊才可以幫忙的地方我不知道這樣可不可以可以可以沒問題那大概什麼時間可以給我"},{"start":14579.181,"end":14603.896,"text":"報告委員這個北北基桃他有聯防的一個機制在我們北北基桃一起討論之後再跟這個委員報告有機制就有我剛是把問題我很具體的問題講出來是你一直告訴我說你現行有機制現行做什麼但是就是有發生這些問題嘛我就覺得你做不夠嘛所以希望你解決我的問題嘛然後你一直告訴我說已經有機制了"},{"start":14604.736,"end":14626.637,"text":"我希望你這份考卷可以考80分你說已經考10分了是不是考10分就夠了現在新的部長來新的新跡象希望新的部長提出新的方法嘛這樣有很要求 有很過分嗎委員我們會給你一個報告好不好我們協商一下我們這邊研究一下再給委員一個報告大概什麼時候"},{"start":14627.836,"end":14628.657,"text":"請環境部一個月之內再把資料提供給業委員"},{"start":14644.493,"end":14662.248,"text":"謝謝葉元芝委員的發言那本日會議詢答全部結束委員楊耀、王育民、鍾嘉斌、屠權吉委員的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":14662.968,"end":14675.039,"text":"委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"15988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15988","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e4f41088fe7fdcd9e8bd03a951da4504b3be8d109af184be41688de39d5ab1ec15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-06T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:07:00+08:00","duration":13020,"影片長度":"03:37:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 - 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化的話這種狀況是往好的方面還是往壞的方面呢我在想齁就是說其中有一項我們所關注的就是說各個主要經濟體他的那個降息的預期降息的預期這個部分呢可能就是說可能是往好的"},{"start":2888.897,"end":2910.249,"text":"當然啦就是說降息是對市場來講是往好的但是他之所以會降息是因為就是說是慢慢的他的景氣就越來越不好他才會降息包括委員今天也知道加拿大央行今天就他昨天就降息啦那6月份的時候呢可能歐元區呢他也會降息"},{"start":2910.649,"end":2914.413,"text":"總裁,如果都沒有變化,那哪一項的風險成就或發生,你認為對台灣的衝擊會最大呢?"},{"start":2933.21,"end":2950.337,"text":"我在想目前都還是在掌控當中還是在掌控當中總裁因為景氣反彈力道不大那央行又勢警勢盜風險未來整個景氣能是堪慮或許政府官員會以預測機構的說法股市和房市現階段的整個狀況來說服整個外界"},{"start":2959.08,"end":2978.185,"text":"對整個情緒不明會緩轉的一個疑慮但是畢竟實際這個體會感受生活環境會是越來越不友善的是一般的老百姓那對於這個評論這個差距變大前主席長朱哲銘曾說分配"},{"start":2979.045,"end":2999.332,"text":"不均是政府的責任大因此政府要採用各種的財政以及社會福利的支柱改善所得的分配我請問總裁你認為透過財政社會福利政策的改善分配能夠有效緩和整個貧富差距的變大嗎"},{"start":2999.932,"end":3002.675,"text":"因為那個總裁依現況來看貧富差距似乎已經不可逆了"},{"start":3022.293,"end":3043.376,"text":"那如果景氣沒有辦法出現像數十年前台灣整個經濟起飛的時期創造出共存共榮的這種經濟奇蹟那請問總裁你認為長期依賴政府政策補貼過日子的多數民眾能夠真實感受到景氣好轉嗎?"},{"start":3045.037,"end":3063.085,"text":"不過我跟委員報告,基本上我剛剛也是跟委員報告就是說我們今年應該是在復甦的當中,是復甦的當中所以基本上我們的就業率現在來看我們的就業率也是好像是歷史的新低的樣子"},{"start":3065.706,"end":3087.877,"text":"總裁,會不會反而容易讓景氣互輸流於掩耳盜鈴的這種政策的語言?會不會?應該是不會啦。不會喔?是啦。那個總裁,因為國內的整個股匯市的走勢呈現脫鉤相較於整個台股平創新高近期雖然有回檔的壓力但是新台幣匯率"},{"start":3088.977,"end":3101.55,"text":"似乎還是呈現貶值的這種趨勢那請問總裁以目前整個市場供需的氛圍新台幣匯率有沒有可能會繼續貶值失守到32.5元的關卡"},{"start":3103.932,"end":3123.564,"text":"會不會 匯率 第一個我跟委員報告匯率他是供需決定的 那沒有錯啦 那我就說他會不會失守32.5 這個我不敢說啦 這個很難預測 而且呢我們的匯率匯率的走勢就成為我在報告裡面所講的匯率是一個相對性啦"},{"start":3124.704,"end":3142.672,"text":"相對性所謂相對性就是說到整個美元獨強你看看美元獨強所有的貨幣都在貶值的時候新台幣大概也沒辦法就是說置身事外那你如果說大家都在貶只有新台幣在升值好像這個也不是很正常"},{"start":3144.574,"end":3164.893,"text":"總裁,3月底總裁對於新台幣貶不停表示說主要原因是美元超強,那請問經過兩個月美元超強是不是還是新台幣貶值的主要原因?還是嗎?還是。就你了解美元超強的形態,短期內到底有沒有可能發生變化?"},{"start":3165.674,"end":3166.014,"text":"目前整個美國通膨能高"},{"start":3184.207,"end":3202.855,"text":"原本對年準會短期內降息的期待恐怕會落空的機率很大再加上今年美國大選那外界預估11月大選前利率都不可能變動總裁如果年底前美元持續強勢新台幣持續的弱勢請問你認為對國內整個金融市場股會市乃至於說國內的整個經濟環境"},{"start":3210.899,"end":3212.14,"text":"我們應該要如何去因應呢"},{"start":3245.964,"end":3247.346,"text":"主席,麻煩請央行楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":3267.718,"end":3286.063,"text":"總裁早剛剛我有在底下聆聽了您的意見其實把全國國民的財富用五等分分成百分之上百分之二十然後最低的百分之二十然後去做比較他們之間的倍數這個很少國家這樣做"},{"start":3287.463,"end":3310.842,"text":"因為有一個理論是有很多國家最低的那20%是minus當然minus跟正數怎麼比那就是無限大倍但是台灣因為最低的無等份的這個家庭這個儲蓄有77萬那當然最上面的20%平均是1000多萬將近快要2000萬所以比起來有60幾倍的差距"},{"start":3312.302,"end":3326.409,"text":"這樣子的計算到底合不合理以及跟全世界比較起來是不是台灣就真的貧富差距非常的懸殊我跟委員報告基本上據我的了解我們應該是還好"},{"start":3329.286,"end":3354.218,"text":"就是以那個基年係數來回應還好嗎?對,我們還好。第二個,但是呢,雖然我們就是還好,但是呢,也就是說我們的貧富不均的這個比例稍微有在提升。那這個是一個比較...這個我想是全球化之後,一個通常的現象。那我在想的是這樣子,你剛剛也有提到說如何去讓這個基..."},{"start":3355.939,"end":3356.159,"text":"我非常同意"},{"start":3380.109,"end":3396.522,"text":"所以你剛剛講的社會救助這個是一個現代化國家尤其是台灣其實台灣的社會安全網社會救助做得不錯當然是還有可以繼續精進繼續往好的方向做的方式重要的是不要去漏掉哪一部分的人對沒有錯沒有錯"},{"start":3397.783,"end":3418.709,"text":"那你說在民主國家然後在我們這樣的環境要強求壓制所有的人要把富人壓制下來跟大家平均讓這個倍數不要變大我覺得這個不是好方法有能力的人願意努力的人或是有機運的人他得到比較好那我們政府用比較高的稅收來彌補"},{"start":3420.809,"end":3445.07,"text":"再來就是說對於那個機運不好或是他的原來的他原來的資本就不夠使得他會在這個社會上必須靠勞力賺錢等等生活有困難或是因為疾病等等因素的你要用社會安全網把他拖住讓他有可以繼續生活讓他這個社會他以及他的下一代將來在這個社會上還有可以增長甚至穿越這個"},{"start":3447.295,"end":3467.944,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":3467.944,"end":3495.179,"text":"簡單來講"},{"start":3495.199,"end":3496.719,"text":"我個人比較主觀的認為說他對美元貶值是有益的"},{"start":3523.387,"end":3525.468,"text":"所以當美元這麼 利率這麼高的時候日幣還在貨幣寬鬆啊"},{"start":3548.817,"end":3569.847,"text":"其實日幣如果當然這個影響很大那如果他不要量化開售他就不會貶得這麼快那這個目的我個人來觀察是希望讓日本的製造業也有機會回流日本委員說得沒錯我也蠻同意的而且我們以前在這個地方請教過一個觀念一個國家的CPI"},{"start":3573.379,"end":3586.474,"text":"零是不好的捏,零是通縮捏,你剛剛看你的表裏面,你的報告表裏面有沒有,日本那些年的CPI很低啊,甚至買到死啊,結果整個國家的經濟就在通縮,通貨緊縮的狀況。"},{"start":3588.513,"end":3614.409,"text":"以前跟你談過的概念你也很認可就是CPI在2左右是好的那如果低於1是有通縮的危險高於3那當然就不好了那就是很快的通貨膨脹所以我們覺得觀念要矯正不要讓錯誤的觀念一直流傳說有CPI是正的好像就把它講得不好其實台灣如果今年能夠控制在2.0幾"},{"start":3616.645,"end":3620.049,"text":"我媽媽跟我講他民國51年結婚的時候他那時候一碗剉冰我們現在吃的剉冰一碗五角"},{"start":3642.006,"end":3667.681,"text":"現在動輒一兩百嘛對不對好一點的還不止欸但是至少也近百塊嘛所以就以經濟國家經濟在成長在戰場的過程中有適度的通膨逐年累積是正常現象是是委員講的沒有錯啦基本上呢我們有說物價在上漲事實上呢物價雖然也在上漲但是呢它的品質啊"},{"start":3668.181,"end":3696.33,"text":"我剛剛那個委員在講說以前的那個剉冰五角跟現在的剉冰一百塊兩百塊但是你要想想看現在的剉冰一百塊兩百塊但是它的料你來看看它的料跟以前的料來比較的話現在的料是它的裡面的那個東西是比以前好得多也就是說物價雖然上漲了但是它的品質也提升了很多那我現在講一個"},{"start":3697.458,"end":3710.208,"text":"你這個觀點我也贊成但是也有比較沒有物料變化的像豬肉也是變化的很大啊對不對豬肉豬肉以前一斤多少錢現在多少錢你看那個年代就知道了好我現在講另外一個那個現在"},{"start":3712.179,"end":3734.89,"text":"被猜測可能遇到的問題現在中國的因為他現在都是傾銷所以歐洲美國這個大的經濟體可能會對他實施關稅的制裁加他的關稅或是對他的傾銷調查那有人說中國對這一招他還有一招可以抵抗就是把人民幣貶值"},{"start":3736.791,"end":3756.003,"text":"你現在美國假設加他10%的關稅加到20%的關稅他把人民幣也貶值的時候就國際貿易來講去他中國那邊購買這些貨品價格是一樣的啊對不對美國的關稅加20%他如果對美金貶值20%那就就以購買者而言他"},{"start":3758.007,"end":3779.833,"text":"加上關稅之後的價格跟現在是一樣的所以就有人在猜測說人民幣可能會貶值而且會在一定的時間內會快速貶值這個不知道你的看法怎麼樣我跟委員報告基本上就我們目前在觀察人民幣它不大敢貶值"},{"start":3782.822,"end":3799.292,"text":"為什麼呢?因為第一個他有外債外債你貶值的時候外債會更多因為他的廠商我就說不是他國家的外債而是他的廠對國外那個什麼借錢那第二個呢他的 capital outflows"},{"start":3800.246,"end":3824.136,"text":"如果說他貶的時候也有可能會加速他的資本的外流他有一點怕所以你看看我們也仔細所以在我們這個報告裡面我們也有談到他事實上他現在也是有一點主貶所以也就是說貶當然是人家一般所講的雙面刃"},{"start":3827.998,"end":3828.419,"text":"我瞭解因為"},{"start":3842.895,"end":3863.332,"text":"美國跟歐洲的加關稅不是現在是未來嘛那加了關稅之後因為中國是一個匯率他控制的國家他有可能在一夕之間突然之間宣布貶10%我講的是有可能的狀況所以呢委員你這講事實上我們都會密切注意對我就要提醒說這個也要考慮在內因為這個都會影響到"},{"start":3867.175,"end":3884.549,"text":"國際之間的貿易公平性以及台灣的日歐穩定我們在這個這麼多的風浪中求穩定這是一個很重要的價值這也是一個很好的價值這是央行央行你們一直到現在一直都做得很不錯的部分好不好繼續加油謝謝謝謝下一位質詢請賴世保賴委員"},{"start":3902.153,"end":3907.641,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請央行的楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":3917.185,"end":3946.037,"text":"我們理事會下個禮拜開嘛是吧對沒有錯那現在看起來今天歐洲央行理事會所渴望降息外界的揣測加拿大已經降息了開啟7-11的第一槍那歐洲央行一般估算是跟進事實上瑞士瑞士前一陣子也降息瑞士所以應該可以降息他們會降息"},{"start":3946.916,"end":3970.833,"text":"我們會討論在6月13日因為很抱歉啦我就說剛好就是說我們這10天之內啦我們接木起第一個接木起第二個呢也就是說那是委員會嘛委員會的話委員討論的結果才會在那一天才會公佈嘛所以我現在在講的話也不見得就是這樣子"},{"start":3974.96,"end":3993.446,"text":"可是你會參考這些吧?那當然當然那當然我們也會就是說是怎麼樣整個全球我們會考慮就全球的整個的經濟情況是怎麼樣第二個呢全球的主要的央行他的貨幣政策的一個的主向是怎麼樣這個都我們都會討論的"},{"start":3995.779,"end":4003.707,"text":"一般預估下週美國Fed不會降息因為現在市場是覺得就是說應該是還是不會因為CPI控制得合宜因為剛剛我也在講現在看起來好像因為前一陣子前一陣子它一直那個經濟還是很危險還很強韌的時候"},{"start":4019.984,"end":4042.639,"text":"所以市場呢一度認為就是說他大概今年是不會降不過呢最近又有一點變化就是說他的經濟是確實有在slow down有在下來而且呢他的通膨的一個控制呢也是在慢慢的所以降息迟遲經濟所以他現在呢也是市場上也在講就是說可能他9月份喔可能9月份會降息喔"},{"start":4044.5,"end":4044.62,"text":"不過就是說這種方向這樣因為"},{"start":4065.39,"end":4081.24,"text":"因為他這個費的這些的主要的成員都一直認為就是說他現在的利率已經是足夠的高了不會再升息只會往下我們的利率會不會足夠高"},{"start":4083.366,"end":4090.193,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的情況是跟美國稍微有點不太一樣但是我跟委員報告事實上我們現在利率是15年以來15年半以來的最高"},{"start":4101.084,"end":4118.432,"text":"最高15年半以來所以隱含的意思楊總裁今天的話裡面就隱含有降息的空間我也沒有這麼說我的意思就是說我們要不要降息要看我們通膨率我這樣說你不能否認嗎"},{"start":4125.741,"end":4128.124,"text":"你說要參考地緣政治調整貨幣的政策"},{"start":4139.802,"end":4164.625,"text":"結果國際危機組織說臺灣臺海局勢惡化很非常的惡化請問你怎麼樣調整貨幣政策我跟委員報告這個惡化不惡化有些時候我們從金融市場有些時候就是說當然是不是實際上是不是惡化但是呢我們觀察的是金融市場"},{"start":4165.866,"end":4173.933,"text":"我們是觀察的是金融市場但是我跟委員報告以目前來看的話我們金融市場是沒有受到影響的"},{"start":4175.131,"end":4201.379,"text":"所以不必調整這個都會討論的啦所以就你來講沒有惡化啦但是國外的組織認為台海惡化這是國際的組織他們看的請問你今天股市又大漲當然漲就大家高興你會不會擔心股市過熱你就有提到ETF你有提到ETF那這個"},{"start":4204.926,"end":4232.772,"text":"你的對策是什麼?我想是這樣子股市一般來講的話只要因為基本上股市跟股市過熱也許他就會做correction現在有沒有過熱?但是我跟委員報告因為一樣的匯率跟股市都是全球聯動"},{"start":4234.386,"end":4235.067,"text":"因為要判斷它過熱不過熱有些時候是很難的"},{"start":4263.047,"end":4283.802,"text":"是很難的,我也不能...因為你看全球都是...因為大家會擔心過熱油就泡沫所以現在在...所以一般來講的話對市場主管機關特別是監管會我相信他都會說居高思維"},{"start":4285.343,"end":4290.705,"text":"對投資人來講呢,都是居高思維當然啦,也是居高思維所以現在已經高了?現在已經高了?算是,如果說以歷史來講"},{"start":4303.47,"end":4328.625,"text":"我跟委員報告啦基本上我們是歷史新高 對不對日本也是歷史新高美國也是歷史新高歐洲也是歷史新高有一個講法說美國大選美國大選今年11月嘛是吧11月之前全球的金融市場都會繼續好這個你同意嗎"},{"start":4330.366,"end":4348.613,"text":"金融市場你只能說你只能說很密切密切的去關注他你不要去做太那個的那個什麼預測有些說當然我們是私下預測但是公開的預測是不必要的"},{"start":4349.175,"end":4353.098,"text":"但是我們的貨幣政策我們要預測CPI我們要預測我們的經濟成長率這個是我們的職責那預測股市這個不是我們的職責請那個你先不要走請經濟部次長好不好一起好不好請經濟部林次長那個沒有楊總裁還是請問你啊"},{"start":4374.571,"end":4383.678,"text":"你有沒有這樣房市是不是過日房市你擔不擔心房市過日因為股市一直漲啊大家欠賺啊房市一直推新高"},{"start":4385.113,"end":4388.196,"text":"外界關係說你的信用管制措施會不會再激出來外面也有在傳言說"},{"start":4408.217,"end":4410.198,"text":"從我們選擇性信用管制以來我們都會找一些專家學者還有銀行我們都會來座談瞭解一些一般的市場的狀況"},{"start":4432.944,"end":4458.503,"text":"那這一次呢我們也是一樣是這樣子做的啊所以呢我想呢我們6月13號禮監事會的時候我們也會來討論這個議題我就是一句話不排除祭出選擇性的信用關稅這個到時候就會知道啦好謝謝喔那個市長市長我就問你一句話就好了喔委員好昨天的經濟部的你們長官啊郭部長他公開說了"},{"start":4460.302,"end":4472.195,"text":"他說只要修法通過和二和三可以演繹你知道這個事吧?媒體這麼大的報導都有啊但我就是請你轉告部長一句話趕快提修法"},{"start":4481.281,"end":4486.784,"text":"委員那個修法那個是核子管制設施的辦法不是經濟部主管的經濟部沒有辦法去提出修法"},{"start":4507.21,"end":4521.877,"text":"你要他們誇部會講一下啊叫或者請民進黨團的提啊 對不對現在沒有法喔 對不對所以這個話叫空話如果你今天這種態度的話那就要打假球"},{"start":4523.09,"end":4550.069,"text":"我想我只是就法律的部門跟委員會打架那要解決的話怎麼會一個就在行政部門的高官會說哎呀 這個不是我主管你去協調啊還不簡單你協調這個東西還不簡單對不對 請民進黨的提案就好了 對不對現在來講國民黨的提案了給你們啊你們也不要去修也不要去處理啊然後呢"},{"start":4552.352,"end":4552.892,"text":"郭國文 郭昭瑋"},{"start":4582.513,"end":4585.276,"text":"主席有請楊總裁昨天央行也有公布外匯成底高達5728億美元最近外資持有股票債券的部分也超高達7509億"},{"start":4607.715,"end":4629.862,"text":"我記得101年的外匯存底突破4000億的時候那時候外資所佔比大概是只有55%那現在外資的佔比已經高達相對於外匯存底來說已經131了這個部分呢你的報告書也有提到所謂的地緣政治的問題那我想請問一下關於這一點你有沒有進行任何的壓力測試"},{"start":4630.942,"end":4642.189,"text":"啊?壓力測試?所謂的壓力測試齁?我不曉得那個委員所謂的壓力測試,你的意思是要說萬一有什麼事情嗎?房市都要進行壓力測試嗎?"},{"start":4646.571,"end":4666.746,"text":"不過委員的所謂的壓力測試跟我們平常我們就是說在什麼情況之下我們會做怎麼樣的處理在什麼情況之下我們會做怎麼樣的處理都是一樣這個是scenario的那個一個最極端的情況之下是什麼情況"},{"start":4671.043,"end":4697.391,"text":"我想就是說在這個允許我啦委員允許我就是說我們在這個就是說在這個在議堂裡面國會議堂裡面我們我在這邊講極端的話好像我總覺得有難言之語有難言之語但是就是有壓力測試但是有我跟委員報告有啦"},{"start":4698.171,"end":4707.315,"text":"各種情況的壓力測試你都在準備當中你有18套的劇本對你就是有18套的劇本嘛都有劇本我覺得你這要讓國人安心阿萬一這個熱錢齊流急退的話就很麻煩了而且現在整個外資進來的金額都越來越高"},{"start":4727.783,"end":4744.128,"text":"另外我關心一下有關於我們做了總體信用管制做了很多的努力總共花了5次的信用管制但5次下來我不曉得總裁你心情有沒有挫折感你看內政部最近要公布第4季的價格的住宅指數高達136.2這連續漲了5年一來是歷史新高"},{"start":4749.75,"end":4758.768,"text":"二來他的交易量也是史上第二高是31.6是13年來的新高史上第二高也就是價量奇養"},{"start":4761.643,"end":4787.592,"text":"價量其樣的結果就是我們總體信用管制失效啊講白一點是這樣子啊那個委員如果說把這個就是說它的價跟量的一個變化然後單獨來說就是說選擇性信用管制就結果論嘛講白一點我們就結果論結果論我跟委員報告事實上選擇性信用管制是有效的"},{"start":4788.41,"end":4808.775,"text":"有效,如果沒有這樣子的話更嚴重,對不對?總裁你既然這麼講,這麼有信心講有效,那有效的程度到哪裡?我承認不會說沒有效啦,老實講,我不會說沒有效,但是效果沒有達到壓制價跟量的結果嘛,事實嘛"},{"start":4809.955,"end":4815.819,"text":"我相信你有效果,你如果沒有管制的話可能會更嚴重嘛,對不對?那原因在哪裡?"},{"start":4815.819,"end":4815.839,"text":"對不對?"},{"start":4833.032,"end":4853.471,"text":"最近的整個儲蓄以前啊這一整年都是超過3兆今年預估超過4.21兆今年第一季就超過1.5兆了對不對問題出在哪裡總裁所以問題出在哪裡我們來想一想嘛是不是我們有所力道有所不足我再讓你看一下這個房價暴漲的狀況台北啊"},{"start":4857.369,"end":4863.213,"text":"2002和2004的比較起來已經快到119了,119耶!118.58耶!競會法是119了耶!你去看看有沒有,臺北帳幅還比較少,帳幅最多是新竹縣市高達88.3%耶!總體而言49.5啊!"},{"start":4880.204,"end":4904.876,"text":"總共大概5%網路上最常提到的當然你說不要針對個別產業來做所謂的這個利率的調整可是網路上最常提到的謝金河也這樣講長期的低利率造成這個房價的元兇你6月13日就要討論了剛剛還有委員說你是不是暗示降息你剛剛說降息"},{"start":4906.056,"end":4906.076,"text":"總裁"},{"start":4924.264,"end":4953.151,"text":"還沒有招啊?6月13日有沒有新招啊?我想我們6月13日會討論會討論,你剛才是講會討論嘛對啦,會討論但是你的那個風向球已經拿出來搖了啦你那個側風向的風向草還不是小草喔你拿出來側風向的風向草已經拿出來了你的風向草有兩支風向草第二支的風向草我就不講了我跟你講一支的風向草你另外一支現在看起來比較有可能這一支的風向草啦"},{"start":4954.62,"end":4978.226,"text":"這次的風向草是什麼就是隨著財政部調整豪宅標準央行是否跟進財政部之前的豪宅標準7000台北市降為6000新北市6000降為4000新竹桃中南高4000降為3000其他先是4000降為2000"},{"start":4981.021,"end":4999.944,"text":"依照現在央行標準是有落差的喔是一國兩制的喔我們台灣的財政部跟央行的這個豪宅標準不同央行的這個標準何來這個本席就很難以理解啦央行說7000新北6000然後其他的4000"},{"start":5002.023,"end":5017.698,"text":"請問一下這一題會不會納入討論我想我們都會討論啦都會討論 這題也會討論嘛我們也會討論會討論嘛 慎重討論是 我們會討論也是新招之一的可能性反正是會討論啦反正會討論啦是啦 反正會討論好 最後我問你一個問題啦那個市長您上來一下齁"},{"start":5023.263,"end":5037.783,"text":"總裁對你今天報告我只有一點沒有辦法贊同你就結語當中的第一點說因為加上近兩年日本這個貿易戰均為逆差日圓因而大幅貶值"},{"start":5038.624,"end":5038.824,"text":"日圓貶值"},{"start":5055.555,"end":5071.483,"text":"不是說一直都是逆差喔沒有沒有啦我說逆差一直以來逆差很清楚嘛沒有他沒有一直逆差以來他是2021年以後才逆差的是這幾年才逆差嗎對啊逆差那你就告訴我"},{"start":5071.843,"end":5075.487,"text":"為什麼日本進口商品網路代購的藥裝食品民眾想要問的明明日圓貶值這麼多了為什麼沒有降價"},{"start":5098.305,"end":5100.007,"text":"市長,您給本席一個答案。"},{"start":5124.878,"end":5150.899,"text":"我想我沒有特別深入研究不過應該是有比較很多元的因素嘛第一個部分就是說可能這個進來的這個你沒有深入研究本席請你好好去研究一下我們一定會去尋找這個最最最最真潔的原因在哪邊對啊這是消耗整個權益問題啊明明貶值貶這麼多難道要去日本買才會便宜來台灣買日本商品就不會便宜一樣是日圓改成台幣"},{"start":5151.92,"end":5152.922,"text":"我向委員報告 我覺得可能這商品的那個"},{"start":5161.055,"end":5182.554,"text":"臺日之間的對話你有沒有參與啊?我沒有參與你沒有參與那是陳正琦在管的喔陳正琦在管你回去跟陳正琦講一下跟你部長講一下啊這沒道理嘛對不對好不好總裁這個部分再麻煩你啦期待啦對你充滿期待你的新招數謝謝總裁謝謝市長謝謝委員指教"},{"start":5191.943,"end":5193.886,"text":"賴委員賴委員謝謝主席有請那個楊總裁楊總裁"},{"start":5207.207,"end":5223.677,"text":"總裁早 總裁早 總裁我針對的今天就是日幣的持續的一個貶值 那跟台幣就是會跟著升還是貶 那其實台灣我們知道就是在近期我們的出口景氣是非常好的"},{"start":5224.457,"end":5251.628,"text":"那這個台幣會升還是會貶影響到就是說我們整體我們的社會的一個通膨那在這裡我們要請教就是總裁就是說如果今天新台幣不得不隨其他的一個東南亞的一個幣值真的跟他們競爭的時候我們有什麼手段可以降低或是避免不必要的一個衝擊呢總裁有沒有什麼樣的一個手段"},{"start":5253.995,"end":5268.973,"text":"你是說我們如果說沒有跟他一同貶值的時候是那我們要如何來維持我們的競爭力是不是對是不是這個意思沒有錯那當然我想我直覺上我只能跟委員報告是"},{"start":5269.654,"end":5286.216,"text":"除了就是說你的生產力提高,你的品質好,那只有大概是這樣子,還有就是說你的Marketing我正講的是央行的一個政策央行政策是沒有啊,因為我們只管匯率啊"},{"start":5286.696,"end":5293.783,"text":"所以我們還是堅持主張就是央行是不會去干預就是這個匯率的一個升還是潛嗎?沒有,基本上我們針對我們就是說"},{"start":5302.27,"end":5331.61,"text":"基本上雖然我們就說我們看看其他的那個必別是他的身邊怎麼樣我們是看而已但是主要的還是要看你個別的你的供需你的供需你的市場的一個秩序怎麼樣如果說我們覺得怎麼會這樣子怎麼會進來那麼多會出去那麼多而且是在很短期間那這樣的話呢中央銀行的職者呢維持市場的秩序"},{"start":5333.555,"end":5353.88,"text":"維持市場的秩序是什麼意思呢就是說讓我們的新台幣的匯率的升貶的波動弧度不要太高也不要太低因為你太高的話那我們的廠商他怎麼要報價那就是說你會去堅持就是說也是不主動干預"},{"start":5354.56,"end":5355.38,"text":"基本上我跟委員報告"},{"start":5380.046,"end":5409.267,"text":"就是說當然我們也會因為這個我們報告也有講到就是說基本上那個從2022年一直到2023年日本也好那個日本韓韓韓還有我們台灣也一樣的主要還有新加坡這些你看看他之所以會干預他也是在扛盛除了剛剛我跟委員報告也就是說他的匯率波動太大"},{"start":5410.668,"end":5432.626,"text":"對金融的問題不好另外一個呢就是您所說的一樣的就是說這個你貶的太多不好對通膨你講的沒有錯當然我們知道波動是不好的我現在是在講的就是央行的一個態度那誠如昨天就是我們的經濟部長他在經濟委員會裡頭他是先是就是說經濟部不支持繼續補貼台電那"},{"start":5435.769,"end":5436.61,"text":"會不會呢?你的看法"},{"start":5452.659,"end":5461.847,"text":"這個經濟部長他做這樣的一個主張我再想也有他可能因為我沒有我沒有會不會嘛你看這個就是不能貼台電的話那台電的電價就是會漲嘛那是不是漲了以後跟著通盤就上來了"},{"start":5470.314,"end":5486.165,"text":"委員這樣的推論好像就是說跟前面這一段的期間來推論沒有我是這樣的一個推論嘛我是這樣的一個推論如果央行在做決策的時候你到底是看"},{"start":5487.006,"end":5490.427,"text":"總裁我再請教你通膨到底對一般民眾的影響是大還是小"},{"start":5516.795,"end":5545.118,"text":"你要回答我這個問題我跟委員報告就是說通膨對一般民眾的影響大還是小我跟委員報告一般我們看的專案銀行看的就是CPI對那CPI因為它的選項368項它的範圍非常廣是那我們民眾的影響大或是小基本上我們大部分都是看什麼都是看那個就是說我們"},{"start":5546.638,"end":5566.704,"text":"一個月裡面至少購買一次的因為他都購買一次的那個民生用品還有就是說那個17項的那一個那我再跟你請教啦就是說本席的選區是農業跟很多的一個退休人員那如果就是存款的利息趕不上通膨的時候"},{"start":5567.484,"end":5588.707,"text":"這一些一般的民眾他如果是靠著存款的利息過日子的話那如果你通膨一直漲的時候一般的民眾他是不是會想辦法就是說他要去投資他要去買資產可是他不一定有錢那他可能會舉債這個其實你看台灣銀行的一個那個利率他一年期只有1.17而已"},{"start":5590.248,"end":5619.354,"text":"那像這樣子的話1年期1.17沒有啊1.715不好意思1.715那這樣子的話這些退休人員怎麼辦呢所以相對的就是說CPI的指數如果沒有符合到體感的時候大家都喜歡跟你探討就是說黃豬以黃豬的一個那個指數來做一個例子這其實我們四周周邊的人大家都覺得說黃豬是一直在漲的"},{"start":5620.334,"end":5635.704,"text":"但是這三年的房價也是直直漲可是相對的就是說你一定要告訴我說這個房價跟這個你們沒有關係可是怎麼可能沒有關係呢那房租有沒有可能也漲這個其實一直在漲我們就用這張圖來反映現實的一個狀況"},{"start":5638.766,"end":5653.891,"text":"那這一個就是要跟總裁做一個探討就是說為什麼就是漲幅平穩就是這個一定是有問題的這個你們這是可以不可以做一個大數據自己去調查"},{"start":5654.611,"end":5663.137,"text":"因為財政部他講說實際的那個租用的房屋的一個租金他私有的房屋他才用那個1300戶那在這個22個縣市幾乎一個縣市只抽到了一個60戶這個是太離譜了"},{"start":5669.701,"end":5670.141,"text":"委員 我跟你報告齁"},{"start":5695.168,"end":5719.523,"text":"這個統計數據是我們主計總署他去根據全國的一個統計來做的那所以呢你這盒說是真的CTI數據那沒有方向感的央行這個我跟委員報告沒有央行的方向感就是主計已經提供給你我跟委員報告我看的我不是只有看影響租金你有沒有辦法就是說自己做一個大數據的調查呢"},{"start":5723.623,"end":5743.219,"text":"我想我們這個我們可以跟主席總署來那個就說你的統計啊一個國家的統計啊他是有一定的專業的單位的那我們不能就說不過呢委員的建議啊我倒是可以我們來跟那個什麼主席總署我們來討論看看啦"},{"start":5744.56,"end":5769.921,"text":"看看是怎麼來就像你說的你跟他講就說他的那個什麼他的數據失真他的統計調查這個呢我總覺得我來跟主席總署我來跟他們來講教那在這裡拜託總裁這個今天就是拜託你們密切去注意日幣的貶值的現象是不是會造成台幣異常的一個升或是貶"},{"start":5770.782,"end":5770.862,"text":"好謝謝好好謝謝"},{"start":5789.717,"end":5801.324,"text":"希望你跟主席處能夠就是共同的一個探討我們自己作為一個大數據的一個自行評估的可行性我們可以來請教他而且也可以跟他討論就針對這個問題謝謝謝謝主席謝謝下一位請嚴寬衡嚴委員"},{"start":5819.216,"end":5826.98,"text":"主席各位先進大家好主席我想請央行我們楊董事長請楊總裁楊總裁早總裁早"},{"start":5836.885,"end":5864.393,"text":"總裁我們都知道虛擬貨幣是虛擬貨幣它不屬於法定貨幣是不是而且就你先前也說過說它無法調解然後波動價格波動大也沒有球場的管道也非常容易被不法的人士來利用那最近我們委員會常常在討論到那尤其我觀察到我們很多的這些傳統的地下會隊像這些營樓或者是業者"},{"start":5865.394,"end":5880.808,"text":"在台灣收這些台商或移工的現金然後就立刻從大陸或東南亞的這些戶口去撥款如果被抓到因為銀行法的罰則很重"},{"start":5882.079,"end":5909.541,"text":"那所以不消息者現在也趕著流行把這些過去張者直接兌換把它改成用虛擬貨幣用虛擬貨幣所以利用這種虛擬貨幣來做一個乾坤大農委員假設被查處了被查獲了也會被司法機關認定說不是法定貨幣所以就是這就是一個大漏洞也許因為這樣子他不會被判刑不會被判罪那所以"},{"start":5911.63,"end":5928.712,"text":"﹗"},{"start":5932.145,"end":5945.964,"text":"我想就是說就是說委員剛剛在講到就是說這個會對的問題啦那基本上就是說我們不要就是說只說看那個會對啦"},{"start":5947.91,"end":5971.583,"text":"如果說就這個跨境的移轉你用這個虛擬通貨的話他就比較容易那我跟委員報告就是說像中國大陸中國大陸為什麼說他會禁止這些的虛擬的廠商在那邊挖礦"},{"start":5973.069,"end":5993.606,"text":"主要的也就是說這些呢所以呢那不只是說禁止他挖礦而且呢禁止交易為什麼就是說這個用虛擬通貨來做跨境的一個支付不要就是說是地下會對啦就是這個這個他是很容易啊他是很容易所以他才禁止他"},{"start":5995.244,"end":5995.644,"text":"那當然就是說現在呢"},{"start":6009.502,"end":6032.772,"text":"要怎麼來管理他現在就重點在於就是說你要如何來管理這些這些的虛擬通貨的這些的業者對啊對啊這個是問題這個就是問題所以才請教總裁因為我們在委員會的討論金管會主委都有討論到我們也要求說要盡速把這個專法趕快要報上來現在大家都很著急而且這個"},{"start":6039.318,"end":6060.319,"text":"造成後面延續衍生出來這些詐騙或犯法的行為沒有錯沒有錯沒有辦法去規範我委員講的沒有錯對對對我委員講的總裁我再請教日圓持續的貶值創下34年最低點很多民眾都持續購買日幣因為很多人都喜歡到日本去旅遊"},{"start":6060.839,"end":6078.625,"text":"到目前為止已經大概回復到疫情前大概八成以上那今年已經有420萬超過420萬的這個台灣的這個國人到日本去旅遊那總消費金額已經超過新台幣1635億超越中國也超越韓國居冠這個龍頭的地位"},{"start":6086.508,"end":6109.117,"text":"我相信今年的數據一定會比去年更高甚至於說現在很多坊間不曉得各位有沒有聽過一個笑話說公司要招待員工旅遊可是老闆就跟員工宣布說我們原來安排的肯丁國旅取消了因為去日本反而比較便宜"},{"start":6110.538,"end":6137.409,"text":"所以現在變成說在去日本住上個晚上的房間價格比在台灣國旅的房間價格還便宜啦吃得好風景又漂亮買又很好買那所以現在這種狀況說日圓持續貶值造成我們國人他們的這個觀光收益日本觀光收益的增加相對台灣觀光收益的減少還有就是我們台灣的產業啊"},{"start":6139.19,"end":6139.33,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6150.219,"end":6172.55,"text":"我手上的資料工具機在台灣跟日本的差異性過去過去日本的工具機的價格大概高過台灣會有大概20到30%那所以台灣的這些工具機產業會有他的生存空間那但是因為現在因為日圓持續貶值所以"},{"start":6174.178,"end":6200.794,"text":"日本的這些台灣的高階機種的訂單都被日商搶光了那中低階的部分呢又被大陸給搶光了那台灣的機械工會也指出說過去這個利基以及這個在市場上可以去依賴的這些空間都不見了那目前價格幾乎跟日本的"},{"start":6202.103,"end":6204.906,"text":"日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶．及對台灣經濟影響．及對日本經濟影響．"},{"start":6215.82,"end":6242.666,"text":"總裁,我們要怎麼樣才能夠去協助工具機的這個產業還有我們這個國內旅遊、國旅的產業對啦,我跟委員報告啦對啦,工具機它長久以來它也都是會一直提到就是說匯率的問題但是我們在這個我們的報告裡面我們也一直在強調事實上工具機的那個什麼它的出口的興衰"},{"start":6243.826,"end":6258.112,"text":"主要還是跟全球的那個什麼的境界比較有關係我跟委員報告事實上日本跟台灣很大一部分的工具機的一個出口很大一部分是到中國大陸去"},{"start":6259.264,"end":6281.033,"text":"那中國大陸委員也知道就是說他們目前的一個情況不是很好所以呢日本對中國大陸的一個出口工具機的一個出口減少我們台灣也是減少那剛剛委員在講的就是說也沒有錯啦就是說以往日本的工具機價格是比我們高但是呢"},{"start":6282.693,"end":6309.302,"text":"現在因為是貶值的一個關係但是我們一直在強調匯率並不是主要的因素主要的還是景氣的關係所以我們在這個報告裡面的第12頁裡我們就已經也有談到了也有談到這一點我們也談到這一點你看看我們在12月這邊我們談到就是說2022年2023年這個是日圓貶的最大你看看它NER貶值貶了8%"},{"start":6310.782,"end":6330.557,"text":"平均貶值8%,我們才貶值0.4%但是呢這我們的工具機出口我們就說國際需求影響所以台灣工業機出口平均減少2.7%日本工業機平均減少3.9%你看它的貶值的弧度"},{"start":6331.889,"end":6336.371,"text":"基本上我總覺得我們的工具機除了它對匯率以外"},{"start":6359.46,"end":6359.48,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":6391.072,"end":6410.42,"text":"下一位質詢請李彥秀李委員然後現場我們就是在發言兩位發言兩位之後我們就是稍作休息謝謝謝謝教委我可不可以邀請我們的楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":6417.927,"end":6441.269,"text":"李委員早是總裁早安喔是歷任幾位總裁包括彭總裁都很關注台灣的房價我想你應該也是很關注台灣的房價總裁我們國內的四大房價指數無論是從政大的永慶我們的信義房價的歷年的走勢圖你看到我的圖表喔對"},{"start":6441.849,"end":6468.066,"text":"還有包括清華的安富還有包括我們內政部的住宅價格這四大房價的指數我們都可以看得出來越來這幾年就是說最近其實房價都是創下歷史的新高那總裁你評估現在是房價的天花板了嗎你看這個房價你會認為它現在已經是天花板了嗎"},{"start":6469.286,"end":6471.591,"text":"基本上 我不敢隨便在這邊做"},{"start":6478.285,"end":6479.666,"text":"在去年的第三季我們的房價指數聯徵率是"},{"start":6501.12,"end":6526.117,"text":"沒關係總裁你的數據我大概清楚就是說我為什麼這麼問第一個我問說現在到底是不是他的天花板你也不敢保證其實因為房價會走揚會有很多不同的外在因素在他絕對不是只有一個因素而已那包括現在總體的經濟股市也很好所以房價是不是也有可能被推升他會不會是原因之一"},{"start":6527.177,"end":6530.841,"text":"但從2020開始我們央行祭出五波的信用管制措施條控房價的方法跟方式看起來"},{"start":6544.876,"end":6559.843,"text":"已經進行了五波但是房價仍然就是一年攀的比一年比一年高包括我們央行的經營處的處長之前也分析我們房價的景氣房市的景氣確實比上半年更熱絡主要的原因有三個一個"},{"start":6560.623,"end":6561.263,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6583.391,"end":6610.679,"text":"往上走的原因嗎?我在想他是說最近啦最近的因素啦那基本上呢應該是我覺得也蠻能夠蠻合理的啦他這種說法但是總裁就是說財政部我們拼命在打房我們希望用調控政策讓房價不要漲但是你們今年處處長說新清安政策把這個房價推高"},{"start":6611.823,"end":6612.984,"text":"新青安市健全房市的一個"},{"start":6637.096,"end":6653.405,"text":"的一個政策他其中的一個政策因為他這個就是說要照顧那個就是說年輕人沒有房的年輕人對對不過我跟委員報告但是你認為這個也是但是呢你如果說假設說"},{"start":6654.506,"end":6668.151,"text":"假設啦我現在也沒有就是說我現在假設他也是其中就是說因為他需求需求高了以後呢因為市場的氛圍呢就整個從本來是要下來的那現在就變成上來的話"},{"start":6669.631,"end":6686.04,"text":"那我們做這樣的敘述呢我們也不能說因為他是政府的政策你就說不能說是因為這個因素我覺得也不能我們我們這個也是在做一個檢討那基本上呢如果說行政院他對我們的"},{"start":6687.02,"end":6714.16,"text":"總裁因為我的時間有限就是說房價會升的會一直往上走其實還有很多不同的因素我也曾經聽過不動產公衛說你不斷地升我的利息還加上現在的五缺缺工缺人什麼都缺他羊毛出在羊家成本就是這麼高所以他必須是這麼高所以其實這也是業界不同的聲音在所以部長總裁我要請問就是說現在打房抑制房價"},{"start":6715.561,"end":6734.093,"text":"仍舊是我們央行的政策之一嘛我跟委員報告我也要在這一個我再來做一個說明基本上委員說我們關心房價當然我們關心房價但是我跟委員報告"},{"start":6735.114,"end":6738.595,"text":"會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶．及對台灣經濟影響．及對台灣經濟影響．及對台灣經濟影響．及對台灣經濟影響"},{"start":6762.303,"end":6768.366,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們一直認為我們認為升息是我們針對的是我們的通膨但是呢,我們如果說對付了通膨以後那這個升息對房價對這個房地產市場它也有impact"},{"start":6783.672,"end":6799.413,"text":"但是呢我就說升息不是我們主要要對付那個什麼房價的而是我們升息要主要是對付這個房地產的對付通膨的但是呢升息呢對於這個房地產呢他也會有影響"},{"start":6801.479,"end":6803.342,"text":"總裁,你上次在3月21日無預警調了半碼,為了因應我們可能通膨升電價後續的通膨,你覺得現在有沒有達到那個效果?"},{"start":6818.542,"end":6827.928,"text":"我跟委員報告就是效果也不是說利率你一調升就馬上會有效果不過我跟委員報告我跟委員報告就是說我們剛剛你如果說看看仔細看看就是說我們的CPI我們的這個17項的民生用品你的最少購買一次的這個商品的物價"},{"start":6852.065,"end":6873.861,"text":"總裁,我聽懂你的說明,但是上次吳育瑾的升息半碼,現在但是我們看這一第一季的經濟指數還有我們現在的那個CBI表現得不錯,但是CBI也通過您的防線,連續三年通過您的防線,就是超過二。當時你會不會想說我如果當時升息一碼會更好?"},{"start":6874.682,"end":6892.057,"text":"我不會 我不會這麼認為 因為我跟委員報告就是說利率的一個作用力啊 他不是說我要馬上下去就馬上就收效的 不是 利率的一個作用力他是在18個月到24個月以後他才慢慢地擠出來的"},{"start":6894.839,"end":6909.985,"text":"昨天總裁我昨天關注到經濟部部長在委員會有提到接下來能源政策重大的改變就是用電政策重大的改變能源政策接下來會增加企業的成本也就是未來就是我們不再做補貼"},{"start":6911.245,"end":6924.635,"text":"包括盡量穩住民生跟小家電的電價那要多調整用電大戶我重點是在用電大戶這件事情這個是整個用電的政策跟能源政策的很大的調整"},{"start":6926.797,"end":6947.538,"text":"總裁,你有沒有聽到,這是一個整個很大的變革,你有沒有參與相關的會議?沒有。總裁,你覺得說,未來如果整個經濟部就是說,未來各部會的補貼,就是你們回到各部會,我們不再用稅基順序去補貼,又念大會要大幅的調整,你個人認為這個對於經濟整個大波動會不會有影響?"},{"start":6951.161,"end":6969.422,"text":"我覺得使用者互惠這是一般的我知道您支持但是用電大戶未來要大幅的增加就是大幅的調漲電價你認為對於我們的整體的企業跟經濟會不會有影響所以我當然你現在委員現在就說"},{"start":6971.003,"end":6986.156,"text":"會不會有影響,那這個是大概是要做study啦齁,要做影響,我也沒辦法,我也沒辦法,我也沒辦法來告訴說,會會會,不會不會不會,那這個是,這個是但是,總裁那個study的趨勢一定是"},{"start":6986.937,"end":7011.913,"text":"有影響只是多跟少而已嗎你同不同意我的說法大跟小然後呢就是說他的一個方式怎麼來方式怎麼進行因為我今天本來是很想好好問你這個問題沒關係我不再用到後面委員的時間我只是非常訝異這麼大的一個能源政策用電的政策行政部會這麼大幅的調整今天經濟部的次長在現場居然沒有我們財政部"},{"start":7015.976,"end":7016.636,"text":"我沒有支持或反對因為這個是行政部會的決定"},{"start":7038.761,"end":7046.189,"text":"但是居然沒有財政部跟央行的角色在裡面發表你們的意見就直接在經濟委員會說出來我覺得這是"},{"start":7048.533,"end":7048.553,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7078.377,"end":7084.785,"text":"下一位質詢請王宏威王委員李坤澄委員請準備請楊總裁"},{"start":7100.665,"end":7119.602,"text":"總裁好 其實我想很多委員都有關心到這個房價的問題 因為最近房價確實有提高 非常明顯在幾個都會區都有 其實相對可能台北市的漲幅還少一些"},{"start":7120.302,"end":7139.741,"text":"但是呢現在確實房價的蠢蠢欲動那麼我想請問一下央行最近有找銀行甚至有找房仲業來了解房市嗎我跟委員報告就是說我們從選擇性信任管制之後我們都在"},{"start":7141.156,"end":7162.777,"text":"這一季這一季之間我們都會分別請銀行來啦或專家學者來啦還有來討論 有找房仲業有沒有找房仲業房仲業的話呢我們有請過房仲業的房仲業的這個最近三個月有沒有最近三個月這個三個月我就不曉得"},{"start":7164.399,"end":7164.979,"text":"最近在桃園甚至出現了排隊來買房子"},{"start":7183.999,"end":7187.522,"text":"甚至又出現還搭帳篷戴躺椅來排隊買房子那當然這個就是被房仲介還有賣房子把他炒一波啦某一種程度也許是帶風向但是呢那確實感覺有這個房市熱起來那因為我們下個禮拜我們央行就要召開這個禮監事會"},{"start":7207.396,"end":7225.123,"text":"所以大家就是特別來關心中央銀行會不會針對房市的部分會採取新的房市的信用管制有嗎目前在中央銀行的規劃裡面可不可能會不會排除有新的房市的信用管制"},{"start":7226.159,"end":7242.834,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說一樣的就是說我們從這個選擇任性管制實施之後我們每一季的一個禮監事會都會討論到房地產的一個議題"},{"start":7244.789,"end":7266.329,"text":"所以下禮拜也會?也會那目前有沒有可能有新的相關的防事信用管制呢?這個就是說在當天看看委員他有什麼樣的一個想法大家的意見行人共事就會有一些的決定所以好"},{"start":7266.829,"end":7287.2,"text":"所以不排除啦那另外就大家比較關心那什麼樣的一個新的就是央行的工具也很多啦比如說在之前大家一直談到就說豪宅的定義可是總裁在今年3月的時候曾經講說財政部雖然呢他這個提高了這個門檻"},{"start":7289.761,"end":7317.094,"text":"但是呢,央行跟財政部的這個政策我們的功能是不一樣的所以呢,不一定財政部要做我們就一定要按照財政部的標準所以現在還是如此嘛因為對淘宅的這個定義比如說央行是7千萬可是財政部已經把它下調到6千萬所以我們有沒有可能兩邊你們就在隔壁隔壁啊是不是可以一致有沒有考慮時隔已經差不多三個月了嘛"},{"start":7318.569,"end":7334.475,"text":"我跟委員報告,委員是就是說記憶得非常清楚在3月的時候我們確實有針對這個議題我們做解釋但是我也跟委員報告就是說我們的這個豪宅的金額是"},{"start":7335.715,"end":7360.165,"text":"是你要管制措施裡面的它的一個強弱的一個門檻對所謂的強弱的門檻就是說假設我們要把它強一點的話那當然我們就下來啊對沒錯我們如果說弱一點的話我們就上去一點啊是所以這個門檻呢是我們跟財政部財政部是純粹就"},{"start":7362.026,"end":7362.046,"text":"總裁"},{"start":7381.034,"end":7381.254,"text":"我想第一個委員"},{"start":7404.602,"end":7432.754,"text":"第一個你講到這個議題的時候當然我們會去討論這個第一個第二個呢選擇性信任管制誠如剛剛委員在講的我們有工具啊我們還有其他的工具啊對不對所以也不是說只有針對這個來討論還有其他的工具我們可以討論另外一個工具是大家討論很多的就是我們對於第二戶的貸款陳述有沒有可能把它調降"},{"start":7433.294,"end":7458.966,"text":"這個我想也會討論因為我就說剛剛的委員講我們的工具還有啊所以在下禮拜有可能討論到豪宅的門檻要不要調低還有討論第二戶的貸款成數會不會降低那還有最重要大家市場在看的我們會不會再升息"},{"start":7460.443,"end":7473.315,"text":"我剛剛也已經講了就是說升息當然也是手段之一不過升息的主要的目標是通膨"},{"start":7474.752,"end":7498.93,"text":"我剛才也解釋了就是說他雖然是只有多針對通膨但是呢他的影響也會影響到房地產對沒有錯總裁其實在你們上一次升旗之前我們同樣的在也是在立法院我們財委會那個時候呢他是面臨到馬上4月份要調電價所以那時候你們覺得那個通膨的壓力比較大一點"},{"start":7502.973,"end":7518.464,"text":"最近的數字雖然還是在2%以上但是目前看起來目前看起來沒有在調電價之前感覺這麼緊張您同不同意我們都密切在注意我也感覺到好像是這樣"},{"start":7519.144,"end":7547.495,"text":"你同意我講的話嗎?對不對?所以呢當然很多人就會去猜測因為下禮拜也就會揭曉了所以我剛才講到的升息、調降豪宅門檻還有第二戶的貸款層數降低在下個星期我們會不會看到任何一個因為你們是你們不可能同時都做嘛同時通作這個力道太強了啦我也覺得這個對市場不是很好那可能呢三折一"},{"start":7548.556,"end":7568.153,"text":"三個手段裡面選擇一個當然 我在想是不是選擇或是都沒有那這個我就跟委員報告這個是我們的理事要共同要討論之後大家有一個共識然後才說要怎麼樣"},{"start":7569.518,"end":7593.974,"text":"反正大家看下禮拜不過另外其實我們今天講到是日幣因為日幣貶很多今年台幣貶也很多日幣也貶很多不過我在這邊當然不是中央銀行的職務我是要幫消費者講一下話日幣貶那麼多但是我們日系的商品我們現在沒有看到條價"},{"start":7597.036,"end":7618.492,"text":"總裁有沒有注意到我們日系的商品日系的車子日本料理更貴對不對我想你們去吃日本料理有便宜嗎還說什麼日本空運來台也沒有更便宜日系的化妝品也沒有便宜很多家電也沒有便宜所以這個是不是對消費者來講不是不是很合理"},{"start":7619.506,"end":7647.117,"text":"總裁同不同意?我也覺得同意所以我們其實也應該呼籲我們的進口商他也某一個程度他要反映這個匯率貶值不是說沒有錯我們現在就很多國人就跑到日本去玩大家就這個時候去日本玩最好這個時候去日本採買最好可是我們跟日本進口這麼多的商品可是日系產品聞風味道沒有降價"},{"start":7648.778,"end":7677.115,"text":"總裁要不要一起譴責一下就說相關部會相關部會就是說共同來來努力對其實你看我們央行覺得有些大家要配合一下政策也會請來了解一下剛剛講嘛請銀行來一下請房仲來一下我覺得我們的相關的這個部會也應該就這種大的這種日系產品我覺得都沒有降價這根本是吃定消費者"},{"start":7677.595,"end":7679.197,"text":"李崑成李委員謝謝主席,我們請總裁"},{"start":7709.491,"end":7731.73,"text":"總裁好這個接續剛剛好幾位委員的話題因為現在日幣是貶值當然很多人都希望也有這個能力意願到日本去玩但是相對的日系的產品到台灣來其實價格還是維持它在年初前的高檔我是希望說這個其實"},{"start":7733.451,"end":7747.916,"text":"拜託不要用譴責,有時候道德勸說一下是不是這個日系的產品因為它們已經貶值了嘛那其實這個進來台灣的這個價格是不是也能夠稍微再優惠一點啊"},{"start":7749.516,"end":7754.538,"text":"今天的題目就是說現在日本維持會市的弱勢當然它也吸引觀光客到日本去旅遊"},{"start":7775.587,"end":7791.164,"text":"也讓服務業的輸出繼續成長一方面吸引外資、刺激出口日本近期的經濟也有成長形成一個良性的循環但是匯率的弱勢對台灣出口也有幫助"},{"start":7792.265,"end":7819.086,"text":"亞洲國家經濟都是以製造業跟出口為主考量規模經濟出口需求等等所以各國也傾向維持匯率的弱勢台灣跟其他國家在產業上有競爭關係所以台幣維持弱勢當然也有它的必要性可是維持台幣弱勢的代價就是進口物價上漲的通膨的壓力請教一下總裁以今年來講"},{"start":7820.527,"end":7831.374,"text":"新台幣匯率開高走低全年最高價我看了一下可能是在1月2號的30.866元最低價有可能是落在4月22號的32.651元收盤價如果說點"},{"start":7836.698,"end":7842.981,"text":"我會趁這個機會來跟委員報告就是說基本上應該是沒有所謂的防線沒有楊金龍防線沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":7863.849,"end":7892.642,"text":"因為匯率說實在它是一個這個指標這個價格它是隨供需在決定的那特別是我跟委員報告特別是現在外資剛剛我們才公布那個外資在我們台灣的那個所佔的對外匯存底的比重你看現在說131%你看很顯然的就是說基本上"},{"start":7893.962,"end":7917.614,"text":"外資現在在我們的外匯市場呢他是很扮演非常重要的一個角色所謂的扮演重要角色就是說他的進跟出啊第一個很難去掌握這是第一個第二個呢他進來的時候或是出去的時候他都非常的集中而且非常的大量不僅是進來或是出去"},{"start":7918.334,"end":7946.443,"text":"那這個隨時你就很難去你就很你要manage他不大容易但是呢中央銀行要關注他所以呢對我意思是說央行還是這個匯率還是可以稍微我們還是要注意他然後呢做一個所以我們的報告裡面也有談到就是說我們第一個我們不能讓這個匯率波動得太大因為你的匯率波動得如果太大的話呢我們的廠商他要報價他要怎麼報價"},{"start":7947.563,"end":7948.903,"text":"新台幣的匯率呢就是32到32.5我們也沒辦法做這樣的一個"},{"start":7965.649,"end":7983.879,"text":"所以才說一個Range啦對 這只是說你的波動的幅度讓它能夠穩定這是第一個那第二個呢剛剛委員你也講的沒有錯啦就是說你的匯率說實在的匯率是相對性的啦人家在貶值的時候呢那你硬著就是說要讓新台幣升值"},{"start":7984.839,"end":8003.121,"text":"但是新台幣它的供需也是朝貶的方向走的時候那你有可能去讓它升值嗎?也沒辦法嘛所以就是說大家都在貶的時候呢那你看看其他的情況是怎麼樣如果說我會貶但是呢對我的一籃子其他的貨幣呢"},{"start":8004.122,"end":8006.324,"text":"所以也沒有所謂一個多少價錢這個匯率就是屬於一個防線然後超過那個防線你就稍微要注意"},{"start":8025.417,"end":8053.947,"text":"當然我們也沒有所謂的防線但是基本上第一個要讓它穩定那第二個也就是說那介於多少到多少是比較穩定的勒我剛剛才在講就是說它的波動度當然波動也不能太大啊對對對最主要的就是我才說有一個曲線嘛對對對它的波動度所以所以波動度而且你看看我們的報告裡面我們的報告裡面我們第幾頁我們就有畫出我們的波動度出來"},{"start":8054.867,"end":8077.477,"text":"我們的波動度跟其他亞洲國家來比較的話我們的波動度算是很穩定的它有一定的穩定度我當然知道說對於央行來講維持匯率的穩定是相當的重要這是我們的中央銀行法裡面規定我們就是說要維持匯率的穩定"},{"start":8078.798,"end":8097.616,"text":"我再請教總裁就是說其實弱勢的日幣跟弱勢的台幣其實有利於兩國的外銷產業就像你們的報告所講出來的台日兩國的貿易競爭的關係不大但是互補性大所以弱勢的日幣對台灣的產業是利大於弊政府也可以利用這個機會鼓勵我們產業赴日投資"},{"start":8101.347,"end":8125.032,"text":"美國早期比較擔心說台日兩國的匯率貶值會影響到外銷的貿易競爭力但是近年來對於台幣日幣的貶值他們也沒有什麼反對的意見顯然這個國際的局勢美日台友好聯合抗中的新局勢成為全球的新秩序請教一下總裁的看法"},{"start":8126.586,"end":8139.515,"text":"基本上對於這個後面的sentence就是說國際局勢有關美日台有聯合抗中的信誓已成為全球信誓這個是屬於這個層面這是屬於這個就是政治的一個層面"},{"start":8145.379,"end":8170.475,"text":"但是呢就是說匯率的申辯這是另外一個層面這是另外一個層面那基本上他的匯率報告呢他是比較偏向這個層面來講他不會就是說我們政治我們是政治意願是我賜予的啦那另外的就是說我是提到說就是說過去美國對於這個台灣日本人這個"},{"start":8171.415,"end":8172.315,"text":"不過我跟委員報告這一次"},{"start":8187.749,"end":8208.73,"text":"幾乎所有的貨幣都對美元貶值那為什麼對美元貶值因為美國的經濟在所有的先進經濟體裡面他是一枝獨秀而且他的利率又很高他的經濟強所以這當然大家他也知道"},{"start":8209.13,"end":8229.88,"text":"他也知道就是說所以我們在報告裡面也講事實上大家沒有競貶主要的還是大家在竹貶那竹貶的話呢這個就比較合他的意思比較合美國的意思事實上美國是比較在意的就是說在這個議題裡面講的就是說你競貶你這樣的話會產生就是說競爭力但是我們沒有競貶嗎沒有啊沒有競貶我們的分析認為就是說事實上呢"},{"start":8237.743,"end":8243.529,"text":"最後30秒請教一下總裁6月13日央行要召開第二季的禮監事會議了媒體在猜上次禮監事會議召開之後也給我們一個surprise"},{"start":8255.88,"end":8256.24,"text":"休息5分鐘"},{"start":8733.382,"end":8738.585,"text":"繼續開會下一位質詢請黃珊珊黃委員好的謝謝主席我請總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":8758.72,"end":8786.337,"text":"黃委員早是總裁早我想今天很高興能夠再看到總裁來報告相關的也希望在新政府上任之後我們還是提供穩健而且有建設性的建議喔好謝謝第一個就是央行在113年5月份公布的金融穩定報告裡面說不動產的市場現在回溫而且價格居高民眾購物負擔增加所以"},{"start":8787.177,"end":8810.589,"text":"總裁現在的狀況你覺得現在的房市熱絡是好事還是壞事?如果說是好事如果說它是基本面所支撐出來的那就是是好事如果說是炒作出來的那就不好所以我記得我上次在質詢您的時候就是說政府在"},{"start":8811.449,"end":8838.769,"text":"提出了平均基權條例希望能夠打房但是同時在大選期間又推出了新清安貸款這兩個政策某個程度來說其實是有點自相矛盾那房市不斷的飆高當然股票也飆高表示台灣內部的經濟狀況是不錯的那錢只能拿去買股炒房不然要做什麼另外就是一種投資詐騙一大堆所以我的問題是房市熱絡新清安貸款"},{"start":8839.79,"end":8861.369,"text":"有沒有所謂的帶動這一波房市炒作的原因?這個就是說預期心理一定有啦預期心理是當然是有啦那這個就是說因為大家都覺得再不買就會更貴啊所以趕快去買尤其是"},{"start":8862.35,"end":8866.735,"text":"新西蘭貸款在4月份單個月就6879戶貸款了500多億總共現在已經到53000戶總金額已經4000多億所以接下來看起來這個房市沒有辦法"},{"start":8877.327,"end":8898.18,"text":"冷卻或者是依在照這樣的狀況之下我想問一下總裁剛剛很多委員都認過了我們有沒有新的另外一波的管制措施是 我跟委員報告是啦就是說我們從選擇性信用管制之後啊我們都一直在每次的禮監事會的時候所以會不會再做一次不動產貸款的講解我們都會討論它"},{"start":8900.982,"end":8929.122,"text":"這個議題呢我也相信這一次我們還是會討論是不動產你們以前會對不動產貸款的專案警檢對對對就這個部分我是建議啦因為新青安貸款現在已經變成非常熱絡而且有很多人已經當成人頭然後甚至有轉租的現象我們一定要求財政部去勾結如果有任何轉租的情況就必須要處理第二個民間的大型民營的銀行因為比不過新青安貸款所以現在有非常多"},{"start":8930.347,"end":8930.547,"text":"是是,謝謝"},{"start":8960.604,"end":8984.444,"text":"第二點就是我也看到今天總裁的報告在日本現在我們對日本都非常有興趣因為國人現在非常開心只要去日本玩就非常的便宜跟划算重點是日本長期以來我看到你們的報告是說日本到現在沒有脫離日本化利率低通膨低成長的經濟困境也就是30多年的失落的日本"},{"start":8985.024,"end":9008.772,"text":"那其實就是台灣的前車之鑒那我也看到說我們雖然現在還是經濟成長相對於日本是好很多但是我也看到你們的報告裡面李建勢會議的3月份的是說其實最嚴重的是快速進展的少子化跟高齡化人口結構的變化影響經濟的成長所以失落的日本我們將在"},{"start":9010.333,"end":9012.554,"text":"總裁,您有什麼建議?人口轉變,工作人口還有我們的"},{"start":9028.078,"end":9048.138,"text":"我們的衝擊會比日本還大我看了真是膽戰心驚啊總裁怎麼建議所以就是說少子化這個是也不是說台灣是這樣好像是這個也是世界的趨勢特別是先進國家所以如果你已經看到了2052我們會比日本更衝擊"},{"start":9051.3,"end":9069.609,"text":"所以各個相關的部會包括就是說包括我們舉一個很簡單的例子就是說包括我們的學校是的現在就要開始做準備了吧30年前的現在就要做準備了那你的勞力你的勞力要怎麼來因應那當然了"},{"start":9071.97,"end":9091.328,"text":"將來的經濟成長已經不是匯率跟貨幣的問題而是人口紅利的問題有沒有生產力的問題年輕的工作年齡的人口的實質變化壯世代要工作年輕的世代要有新的教育方式然後因應世界產業的變化要有不同的"},{"start":9092.509,"end":9111.921,"text":"委員我非常同意但是總裁我不是官員所以您是官員您也會參加行政院委員會我認為這件事情在您的報告都已經預計30年後我們將面對現在日本這個考古題日本這個考古題就像剛剛講的我們不能再用所謂的"},{"start":9112.802,"end":9112.822,"text":"總裁"},{"start":9138.028,"end":9144.032,"text":"我們希望政府應該及早因應您在行政院院會我相信也是備受"},{"start":9145.182,"end":9145.342,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":9169.324,"end":9180.314,"text":"我也希望您給我一個針對這個部分有什麼樣您的建議然後我們也可以拿出來跟行政院來做要求好嗎是是是好可以可以好謝謝總裁是好謝謝現在進行吳立華吳委員"},{"start":9200.253,"end":9201.997,"text":"謝謝主席,有請央行總裁"},{"start":9210.398,"end":9229.665,"text":"總裁好今天我們安排的是日圓貶值對台灣經濟的影響那至少我們看到就是日圓貶值34年來新低也是台日民間交流的好時機我們看到好多國人前往日本旅遊買家電"},{"start":9231.986,"end":9247.299,"text":"我們也看到日本呢在這樣的一個情況之下他也願意選擇天數最短距離最近價格最低的台灣那在這樣的狀況之下呢我們其實也看到就是最近其實台灣還蠻熱鬧的"},{"start":9249.401,"end":9260.976,"text":"黃仁勳來台灣也發展了一套台灣的夜市學我在這邊只是想呼籲一下我也希望黃仁勳可以到我們園鄉來走一走幫我們訪問一下"},{"start":9265.442,"end":9285.719,"text":"去日本買家電確實很便宜因為我們看到像這個Dyson的空氣清淨機你看它的牌價18888可是到日本當地去買可以用7700多買到所以大家都說沒有保固也很值得"},{"start":9287.1,"end":9310.896,"text":"另外我們看到日本也不是沒有反制啦因為他們也很擔心很多人去就是要轉售魔力嘛所以呢他們也有因應的方法他們也有開發這種系統就是可以防止你到處去造訪到處購買家電但是我要講的是說有另外一種的消費型態他是在官網"},{"start":9312.017,"end":9327.459,"text":"去買那他官網買也有半價以上的價格喔可以輕鬆購入喔那再來一種就是在本地也就是在我們台灣去買他們的日電我們看到10年前喔"},{"start":9328.3,"end":9354.516,"text":"其實當他們日圓貶值的時候我們在台灣買日系家電其實是也很划得來可是10年之後像現在如果我們要在台灣去買這些日系的汽車家電其實並不見得比較便宜喔所以想要請教一下總裁因為我們國人其實真的是比較偏好日系的這些家電或品牌那麼"},{"start":9355.436,"end":9384.139,"text":"到底在國內購買到日本購買或者是透過網購平台購入總裁您認為要考慮哪一些不同的因素也就是說你教大家怎麼樣最好啦報告委員說實在的我對shopping對這我也比較外行當然我總覺得那個委員你的分析多比我"},{"start":9385.08,"end":9388.302,"text":"總裁今天我們邀請的是央行跟我們經濟部那其實在這個10年當中我們會看到"},{"start":9410.939,"end":9411.759,"text":"我也是希望說藉著今天"},{"start":9440.971,"end":9452.477,"text":"我們委員會他安排了這樣的一個專報也希望能夠對我們的一般平民百姓能夠給他們一些指引方向所以還是麻煩總裁啦好不好那我看到就是第22屆大家引頸期盼的臺北國際數位影音家電展"},{"start":9461.641,"end":9477.277,"text":"也即將來臨那這個當中呢政府也標榜說買什麼可以省什麼最高可以省五千塊那今天我們在經濟部的一個專報裡面我們有看到就是為了要推動這個節能的規模"},{"start":9480.119,"end":9494.167,"text":"經濟部有加強節能服務業的發展去規劃信保制度那單一的這種節能服務業單一的企業他最高有3億元的信保額度"},{"start":9495.087,"end":9518.461,"text":"這是為了要引導金融業的資金要來投入我們的節能工作而且呢這個經濟部也向行政院爭取到117年擴大這個太舊換新補助的措施那我想這個部分都很好所以我就是接下來想要請教總裁您認為日圓接下來會不會繼續貶值"},{"start":9523.531,"end":9548.905,"text":"如果說日圓它長期的趨勢是怎麼樣以目前來看的話是很難去下定論但是我怎麼就目前的情況來跟委員報告就是說基本上市場都大體上都知道"},{"start":9550.438,"end":9569.074,"text":"一百五十七塊一美元對一百五十七塊甚至到一百六十塊這個都不是日本政府他所願意看到的所以你會發現到就是說到一百五十七塊的時候呢日本的央行就會在市場干預所以你看看最近他也變化了"},{"start":9569.814,"end":9570.955,"text":"他現在大概是在155塊左右"},{"start":9591.125,"end":9607.053,"text":"所以是不是他會一直上去市場大概知道就是說日本政府的態度是那為什麼這樣問當然我們就是關心因為日圓貶值的時候大家都說可以提高新台幣對日圓的購買力"},{"start":9609.594,"end":9629.981,"text":"所以這個看起來是有利台灣企業對日本直接的投資或購買他們的技術所以我在這邊是為國內企業請命以冷氣來講國內的品牌東元、森堡、核聯、華林、萬世益這些那我們是不曉得說"},{"start":9631.401,"end":9648.639,"text":"剛才有提到經濟部有提供這個節能產業的一個信貸保證那麼是不是能夠去掌握這個趨勢加速台灣本土產業的一個升級我想這個部分是我們非常希望能夠看到的"},{"start":9649.399,"end":9649.499,"text":"只要20秒"},{"start":9673.983,"end":9694.498,"text":"我想謝謝委員剛剛所提到的部裡面在推這個節能我們跟國內的家電這邊來做合作那我們要提升國內家電的一個這個這個附加價值業或競爭力我想會從幾個面向一個部分當然從研發新產品部分我們給予這個補助另外一個部分就是設計用設計的部分來創造我們產品的價值我想這個是在產品在市場上競爭我們會努力來協助業者因為你們原本是為了節能"},{"start":9702.904,"end":9720.379,"text":"但是我們又碰到這一波就是日圓貶值那在這個部分我們是希望說經濟部可以把你們原來規劃的這個太舊換新節能產業是不是可以跟這一波趨勢我們可以順應扶搖直上有這個機會可能嗎"},{"start":9722.581,"end":9722.981,"text":"現在請王世堅 王委員"},{"start":9760.22,"end":9764.382,"text":"謝謝主席我請總裁楊總裁王仁早總裁辛苦了謝謝你鼓勵從去年8月財政部同意了新清安房貸以後那這將近七八個月來我們台灣"},{"start":9790.235,"end":9808.306,"text":"從北到南房價的飆漲已經飆漲到離譜的地步了我相信總裁你看在眼裡應該非常清楚嘛那房價繼續飆漲光是台北市啊台北市一項統計"},{"start":9811.61,"end":9837.82,"text":"五月份的統計我們台北市的房價平均高達九十七萬五千五啦九十七萬五千五天啊這是天文數字就對過去說那退休金大家奉公所法的一輩子領個退休金四五百萬大概照現在的房價在台北市等於買個四五平買一間廁所就對了"},{"start":9838.888,"end":9852.159,"text":"你一輩子的辛勞到最後那你剩的那些退休金在台北市買一間廁所天啊這是荒唐離譜到極點那當然這個牽涉到這個我們台幣"},{"start":9858.784,"end":9878.985,"text":"是否貶值長期以來我們央行控制住我們台幣這個匯率的部分那麼以及利息的部分所以這個我是建議總裁在這一次"},{"start":9880.714,"end":9900.274,"text":"第二次的這個貴行的禮監事會議我想是不是你們應該慎重去考慮應該適度的調升利息啦你覺得呢過去這幾你看這一兩年來我們調升利息有都一點點一點點一碼一碼"},{"start":9902.622,"end":9902.642,"text":"總裁"},{"start":9930.1,"end":9955.612,"text":"你看一下這個房貸與利率關係圖房貸利率與房價的關係圖這上面我做了這個圖很清楚的就是說房價跟利率事實上事實上利率越低房價越高他們曾反比這非常清楚的這一個統計是統計了"},{"start":9960.085,"end":9971.03,"text":"2000年到2018 2018年19年的期間內那麼這一個統計很清楚看得到的2000年當時將近7%的房貸利率"},{"start":9978.376,"end":10005.388,"text":"一路下來2000年那時候這個房價的漲幅跟現在利率來到這麼低來到1.5的時候房價的漲幅是高達295%這是非常清楚的所以是不是在這一次你們旅間式會議是不是應該討論一下針對升息你的看法呢"},{"start":10006.484,"end":10028.149,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說因為你是用很簡單的報告跟委員報告就是說基本上央行的一個利率他是針對是通膨沒有錯那你就說央行那個嚴重"},{"start":10028.649,"end":10030.87,"text":"我們的通膨,我們的通膨率大概是多少?平均不到1%"},{"start":10056.997,"end":10081.855,"text":"這三年突破警戒就是事實啊所以你就說長期事實上是沒有啊就說從2008年你在跟我定義什麼叫做長期是不是我在跟你講現在這三年你在跟我講定義是不是什麼叫長期你的意思你說我的用詞寫長期那你不爽是這樣嗎"},{"start":10084.437,"end":10088.218,"text":"我科技在跟你談事情!你在跟我講智慾上!雖然不叫做長期!什麼叫做長期?民眾的生活一年365天三年1095天那不是長期嗎?抱歉啦抱歉啦我讓委員這樣講話"},{"start":10112.705,"end":10137.438,"text":"大家冷靜的討論事情你怎麼來我怎麼去我這麼客氣的問你因為你是這一部分的專家我認為房價跟利率跟匯率能夠控制其實全賴央行的啦是是是 我很好 我抱歉啦 我很抱歉"},{"start":10138.298,"end":10143.942,"text":"昨年8月財政部新青安貸款通過的時候你們也沒有阻止阿他們也沒聽你們的話阿不是嗎新青安貸款以後我先講幾個數字給你聽新青安貸款去年阿"},{"start":10165.512,"end":10169.07,"text":"去年4月我們講同期去年4月"},{"start":10170.461,"end":10194.699,"text":"我們前五大行庫借房貸大概不到五百億今年的四月同期喔我們五大行庫借房貸將近一千億兩倍之多欸這是很嚴重的事情欸不是嗎那在這個事情上面你央行眼睜睜看著財政部"},{"start":10195.84,"end":10208.465,"text":"只是說為了大家買房更容易結果那麼一放鬆搞成這樣我現在是問你說如何收拾殘局我跟委員報告第一個就是說我們在6月13號我們禮監事會我們會討論這個議題所以抱歉那個委員讓你這樣的話不高興我是真的是抱歉"},{"start":10221.269,"end":10226.239,"text":"但是我跟委員報告我們會在下一次的禮監事會我們會討論委員所關心的議題"},{"start":10230.884,"end":10257.695,"text":"你們認為說經濟成長亮眼臺北本質幅度有限升息打房不利出口這些都有你們的看法但是我希望說你們再來再來再討論委員會啦是不是方向改變限制房貸層數是不是說不要超過總層數不要超過8乘5那應該要比如說升息來打房這是應該做的嘛是是是"},{"start":10258.815,"end":10260.977,"text":"對新青安貸款的這8、9個月來應該做一些複審的動作比方說有的人假借新青安"},{"start":10273.888,"end":10275.45,"text":"沒關係啦 我那個生氣3秒鐘就夠了啦 那個沒關係"},{"start":10295.452,"end":10295.572,"text":"時間有限了"},{"start":10321.67,"end":10338.937,"text":"我最後我會把我沒有放的這個表格我們有前十大嚴重性的貸款的這個負債比例齁這個前十大這個名字我會交給你啦包括他金額之間你看一下在已經嚴重到這個程度的時候從士林開發新潤這樣一路亞新建設這一些這個負債比都過高那是因為什麼"},{"start":10349.981,"end":10372.617,"text":"只因為利率低所以他們就大量的跟銀行拿錢出來那麼去大量的去囤房去買土地那這反而會不利於我們社會上無可足我們青年朋友們他們要買房未來他們碰到該他們要買的時候房價都會居高不下"},{"start":10373.697,"end":10389.493,"text":"委員謝謝你啦,你就提供我們這個疫苗的數據啦,那我們來瞭解啦,我們來深入瞭解,謝謝委員照現在齁,這個比例來講銀行等於沒有風險控管可言嘛,事實上對銀行"},{"start":10391.295,"end":10392.575,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員請總裁會座接下來我們請趙偉羅明財委員"},{"start":10418.613,"end":10440.36,"text":"主席各位出列席官員大家好主席可不可以請楊總裁好請楊總裁楊總裁你好老委你好你現在心情還好嗎都好啊都好看你這幾年來表現就好像台幣對美元匯率的一樣很穩定"},{"start":10442.084,"end":10452.631,"text":"我們的會議是很穩定的,沒有錯啦,我們的會議是穩定的大概小說中的治理名言就是他搶由他搶"},{"start":10454.082,"end":10473.325,"text":"清風佛山岡他恨任他恨明月照大江以前彭淮南是柳樹理論金龍金龍就有一個新的平衡理論就是不會受環境的影響"},{"start":10477.589,"end":10491.961,"text":"所以我們看到新台幣對美元的匯率大概都看起來都蠻持平的就在你的區間在總裁的防線左右兩邊大概貶最低意思大概到時候多少"},{"start":10494.012,"end":10499.72,"text":"我們到最低好像是就32.67幾吧那搶的時候呢我們搶的時候也到27.66幾27大概是澎海南防線"},{"start":10509.958,"end":10529.713,"text":"這個大概就二三十年了這個故事不斷在裡面就重複的演出了不過我跟委員報告是確實匯率它本身它就是有一個有好有壞不過基本上我還是很讚佩啦謝謝啦謝謝委員真的委員的誇獎我們真的就很受用因為謝謝央行每年都"},{"start":10538.34,"end":10538.741,"text":"我們去年繳1850億左右"},{"start":10549.672,"end":10572.7,"text":"今年我們的預算因為美國的利率提高所以我們就繳了2000億其實應該不止因為從央行的外匯存體你的比重來看的話大概外匯存體的比重美元的部位現在有沒有增加"},{"start":10573.393,"end":10597.089,"text":"我們美元的部位呢 當然啦就是說美元的部位我們都也是時常在檢討第二個美元的部位跟其他幣別的部位呢 也都說上上下下啦去年比起來的話大概是差不多啦大概差不多也不會說變化很大日圓的部分在五年前你有沒有減持啊"},{"start":10597.762,"end":10599.904,"text":"人民幣的部分手上現在大概比重有多少?"},{"start":10619.172,"end":10619.232,"text":"日圓喔?"},{"start":10645.094,"end":10651.029,"text":"考不考慮在現在歷史的低點你到大概160的時候你就大量買進啊"},{"start":10653.768,"end":10659.709,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們外匯存底的一個管理的準則當然我們也會就是說我們必須要在適當的時間做調整第二個呢 你的調整就是說不能太頻繁"},{"start":10682.873,"end":10700.134,"text":"對所以日圓的部分你的調整如果說太頻繁的時候呢人家市場會覺得就是說中央銀行在市場所以現在跟5年前比日圓的比重我們外匯準體的比重下降大概幾%"},{"start":10701.115,"end":10701.135,"text":"我問問"},{"start":10725.372,"end":10740.162,"text":"委員的這個就是說你的管理的準則基本上呢你是蠻有那個限制的如果是我 我是有見解啦謝謝總裁的談案那如果是我的話我現在就要多換一點議員"},{"start":10742.263,"end":10769.805,"text":"我這樣的做法是對嗎?我想就個人來講的話你一直稱讚我啊就個人的理財方式是可以分批買進其實也不錯因為第一個日本不會倒嘛總裁日本會不會倒?應該是不會啦所以日本不會倒第二個就是歷史的新低反正就是加減賣加減換因為以前最高的時候"},{"start":10770.586,"end":10791.197,"text":"日圓對美的大概80塊啊?對,沒有錯所以你現在相對的160塊很便宜啊那還有一個好處就是國人都很喜歡去日本去遊玩你就是部分當作你個人的像央行一樣比照的一個小水庫"},{"start":10792.037,"end":10792.297,"text":"請問一下總裁"},{"start":10820.438,"end":10849.984,"text":"台灣大家都很想說會不會是像日本一樣失落的30年借鏡那事實上台灣不一樣我們台灣有護國神山我們台灣因為這樣護國神山挺住他的產業鏈請問這個次長整個股市如果是一個櫥窗電子占我們經濟發展的比重因為他非常的亮麗大概比重有多少"},{"start":10851.437,"end":10872.75,"text":"我想目前的比重應該有超過五成以上五成了齁所以台灣的發展事實上跟日本是不一樣我們是靠50%電子方面撐在那個地方現在請問一下次長會不會再多另外一隻腳另外一個護國神山AI也沒有可能產生"},{"start":10874.772,"end":10891.179,"text":"我想這個部分是有很大的一個這個發展的潛力而且我們的這個供應鏈的能力也可以在這個面向來發揮更好的價值對我看到NVIDIA他AI未來的發展的一些供應廠商但60% 65%都是台灣的生產鏈是"},{"start":10896.241,"end":10917.173,"text":"因為我有問他,我問他說因為這蠻核心的他們在選擇就是廠商的vendor code裡面最重要他以台灣為主當然還有日本少許那請問一下次長台灣跟日本比較的話台灣的優勢在哪裡第一個我們的供應鏈的一個這個聚落的能量比較健全"},{"start":10919.944,"end":10948.096,"text":"所以黃仁勳先生他說要來台灣設廠你的態度歡不歡迎當然我們是非常非常歡迎這樣的一個國際的大廠到台灣來然後跟我們的供應鏈結合創造更高的價值是謝謝這個真的是台灣人的驕傲以後不是只有張宗謀我們希望多出幾個張宗謀黃仁勳各方面多一點嘛"},{"start":10949.147,"end":10949.888,"text":"委員說的沒有錯啊"},{"start":10956.229,"end":10984.426,"text":"那你要按那個聲音對委員說的沒有錯說的沒錯那我要提醒總裁還有一個現在金管會已經在推動虛擬資產的專法要開始管理了我們看到香港新加坡很多地方現在的資金都撤退因為他們管理區域嚴格那希望總裁這一塊"},{"start":10985.444,"end":11004.587,"text":"也許是另外一個理財的另外一個一隻腳會出現因為我們金融相對GDP產值就不到6%在海外的部分新加坡香港都超過十幾%所以拜託在金融管制方面"},{"start":11007.023,"end":11022.743,"text":"請總裁要準備好我們希望台灣未來的發展是可以取代香港取代新加坡讓台灣成為世界上大家驕傲的亞洲營運理財中心好不好"},{"start":11026.494,"end":11051.886,"text":"謝謝委員的指教 謝謝可以嗎謝謝考不考慮以後買比特幣我6千塊跟你講過現在已經7萬了聽說還會漲到10萬謝謝有沒有可能把虛擬資產納入外匯全體的項目到目前為止我們會注意它但是目前都還沒有這樣的一個考慮你的數字貨幣什麼時候提出"},{"start":11053.33,"end":11077.002,"text":"我們還是持續在進行已經開始在做了嗎?我們都有階段性,我們都安排得很好這個階段是什麼時候會亮相?對外公布?我們會報告我們的進度我們會報告我們的進度謝謝非常感謝羅明財交委也請楊總裁林次長回座,謝謝"},{"start":11090.968,"end":11102.939,"text":"這位質詢請林楚英林委員謝謝主席主席有請楊總裁楊總裁"},{"start":11113.911,"end":11135.649,"text":"總裁好,總裁不知道您上週有沒有注意到就是美國眾議院的訪問團來到立法院拜會尤其是到國防交委員會那麼其中有一位共和黨籍的眾議員叫金映玉她其實曾經在美國的眾議院當中她是台灣連線的成員她有提出不歧視台灣法案"},{"start":11136.169,"end":11157.286,"text":"那這個不歧視台灣法案在今年的1月呢在眾議院已經無異議的通過那這裡頭最重要其實就是支持台灣參與國際貨幣基金那我們都知道這個IMF這個議題喔其實在過去財政委員會的時候我就不止一次的質詢過您我跟國國委員、審法會委員、中加兵委我們也一起曾經聯合提案過希望您能夠做這樣的一個評估"},{"start":11158.967,"end":11178.832,"text":"目前以全球國際的幾局勢來講的話不知道您怎麼來評估就是在美國的力挺之下那麼台灣加入所謂的金融聯合國就是IMF的可行性到底現在的狀況如何因為其實我的時間有限我想一次的就提出來就是您過去曾經講過說啊這個"},{"start":11180.592,"end":11204.64,"text":"加入有幾個條件那麼你也曾經講過說因為我們不是這個聯合國的會員但是後來你也說了其實不是一定要聯合國的會員才有機會加入因為像科索沃就不是聯合國的會員那麼現在最重要就是如果當美國這個參眾兩院都通過美國政府真的支持我們的時候那麼我想總裁一定也知道嘛就是"},{"start":11205.42,"end":11218.905,"text":"委員會的進入方式並不是像我們所知道的像聯合國是一國一票他基本上有一個SDR就是說用權重比最後如果能夠達到一定"},{"start":11220.083,"end":11229.29,"text":"的數目的時候過50%我們就有機會能夠加入那我們知道在權重比的部分美國就是最糟的占全體表決權的16.5%再來當然就是日本的6.14當然中國在裡頭的這個權重比有6那麼"},{"start":11236.355,"end":11259.471,"text":"但是我們還有德國法國跟英國所以以這樣的情況來看總裁你怎麼來看就是對於台灣來講現在是不是一個可以再更積極努力的時刻因為呢現在本席在國防外交委員會我也就加入MF是不是可以列為外交部的工作計劃這個部分呢林佳龍部長也給了我非常正面的回應就是說"},{"start":11261.012,"end":11279.919,"text":"這個部分外交部可以積極的來跟央行這裡跟其他包括財政部等等相關的單位一起來爭取因為畢竟現在台灣已經成為世界的台灣我想黃仁勳最近所掀起的旋風包括他所展現的不只是AI的實力還有我們全球的經濟實力"},{"start":11283.18,"end":11303.64,"text":"那麼當然加入INF的好處我想總裁一定是比我或國人都更加的清楚除了我們的金融人才有機會進入國際組織之外更重要的是可以強化台灣的金融韌性更重要的是過去我們曾經在COVID期間我們講的是健康的外交"},{"start":11305.242,"end":11321.574,"text":"那麼現在台灣是不是能夠展現金融外交的一面總裁對於過去我的詢答到最近整個國際社會的狀況您的看法會不會變得更為積極一些謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":11323.255,"end":11350.538,"text":"當然就是說委員也跟那個外交部提出這樣的一個質詢那剛剛你也講就是說外交部也會請就是說財政部啦中央銀行啦這相關的部會來共同來看看怎麼來進行這個呢中央銀行在這一方面如果說政府的態度是怎麼樣那中央銀行當然是一不容辭就是說一定會配合這是第一點"},{"start":11351.318,"end":11357.72,"text":"第二點剛剛那個委員提到了就是說美國現在是美國的態度美國的態度是不是積極的來支持台灣來加入這樣子剛剛你也提到了就是說是講到董事會的問題美國的美國還有這些的那個美國日本英國這些他的董事會"},{"start":11381.188,"end":11401.364,"text":"他要兩個關口事實上委員上一次質詢我們的時候我們就是要密切去注意他所以他整個程序說實在我們都知道不只是說是董事會他另外一個除了董事會之外他還有一個理事會而且那個理事會要190個理事會的國家"},{"start":11408.186,"end":11425.22,"text":"要三分之二投票所以我的意思不是說說那就是很困難不是我的意思就是說我們要了解他的程序是什麼對不對那我們如果說政府是在積極在中央銀行財政部和相關的部位呢一定會配合的"},{"start":11427.803,"end":11440.381,"text":"總裁我給你一個我所找到的數據跟資料啦那我不知道說是我這邊找的資料有誤或是總裁您剛剛的答覆喔不是那麼的精確就是我知道有董事會有理事會但是理事會的投票並不是"},{"start":11441.963,"end":11442.964,"text":"美國的態度非常的重要但是我們不用爭取到所有他不是"},{"start":11463.161,"end":11463.822,"text":"我相信總裁在這裡給予的建議"},{"start":11481.434,"end":11482.355,"text":"稍為諮詢請廖先祥廖委員"},{"start":11522.577,"end":11523.239,"text":"謝謝趙偉,麻煩幫我要請我們楊總裁請楊總裁"},{"start":11531.401,"end":11557.676,"text":"總裁好,去年2023年香港富士比爾50周年慶拍賣了一幅畫Picasso的畫作為女孩拍賣了將近1億的港幣我想這件事情跟總裁個人或者是跟我個人我們就不去看我們的工作的職權當高價的藝術品拍賣跟我們有沒有什麼關係"},{"start":11559.482,"end":11560.242,"text":"總裁另外一個問題喔"},{"start":11586.653,"end":11613.734,"text":"那有錢人去買豪宅跟我們有什麼關係那這個就是說會涉及到一個社會政策的一個問題對總裁我跟你報告絕對有關係我的理論跟總裁報告一下絕對有關係因為我們先說了豪宅的信用的條件導致很多人可能他原本也要去買一個可能超過一定單價的房屋對不對"},{"start":11615.295,"end":11632.448,"text":"因為我們這個門檻設立了之後他不想當冤大頭他不想去買了但他還是有買房屋的需求嘛對不對他就往下來找那他造成了原本去買高單價跟一般民眾不從市場的一個購屋需求"},{"start":11633.148,"end":11663.148,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":11663.268,"end":11681.145,"text":"我覺得有沒有幾分道理我是第一次聽到有這樣的一個說法不過呢我也總覺得委員講這個好像雖然是第一次但是好像也有道理不過呢"},{"start":11682.947,"end":11708.148,"text":"確實我誠實跟委員報告我們沒有這樣的一個資訊所以呢也許我們來掌握看看可能就是說是真的就是說豪宅的這個部分因為就我們了解了就是說我們都認為就是說對於豪宅為什麼我們對豪宅要對他那信用管制因為豪宅基本上呢他比較risky"},{"start":11709.517,"end":11711.259,"text":"但是問題是在於就是說我們的豪宅基本上大部分都是那些有錢人"},{"start":11725.354,"end":11727.796,"text":"總裁最近在我們豪宅這幾年我們俗稱的豪宅這幾年高價的房屋確實在交易面"},{"start":11751.77,"end":11765.545,"text":"有很大的急縮嗎?這應該是沒錯嗎?這應該是客觀的一個事實。那原本去交易那些豪宅的人都跑去哪裡了?他是完全不買房子嗎?或許有部分的人他就不買了。對,那或許有些人是不是往下來尋求他認為合理的價格。"},{"start":11773.414,"end":11779.958,"text":"總裁金龍 今天會問總裁最主要是昨天的新聞嘛 總裁應該非常清楚 就是可能6月可能要針對這個高單價房屋的門檻再來調降 尤其是這幾年房屋單價不斷的提高 那房屋"},{"start":11795.848,"end":11823.542,"text":"越來越小那越來越容易達到了這個所謂豪宅的門檻那就導致這個大家所有的建商都把所有的坪數再往下降單價上升了他只能來降坪數嘛那現在市場上面所供應的房屋他到底有沒有符合我們所謂所基本的人權我們一個基本的人權假設一家四口我需要多大的一個室內空間那假設我在台北市公設30幾趴的情況下"},{"start":11825.283,"end":11844.12,"text":"我只是要尋求一個基本居住的一個合理的有人權的居住空間結果就達到豪宅的門檻了那所以說當我們這個金額降到太低的時候其實就我的看來其實也是剝奪了我們一般的民眾去尋求合理有尊嚴的居住空間的一個門檻"},{"start":11846.323,"end":11849.99,"text":"事實上你講的這個道理我是第一次聽到但是我總覺得"},{"start":11857.15,"end":11857.991,"text":"我希望說在訂定的時候有時候不要說"},{"start":11883.61,"end":11908.195,"text":"打豪宅聽起來都很爽啊我聽了也很爽啊多課點睡反正又課不到我對不對但是我們必須要去思考一下他所後續帶來的聯誼會不會影響到我們的普羅大眾所以我剛剛提到的兩點第一個就是購買豪宅的客群到底會不會因為他的移動來波及一般的民眾對一般的民眾第二個是我們的人均所應該賦予的有尊嚴的居住的空間"},{"start":11909.355,"end":11919.638,"text":"到底會不會因為他降了就變成說每個人都要去住豪宅這也是我們需要去思考的另外一個問題這兩點問題再麻煩我們的總裁再思考一下提供一些淺見謝謝謝謝就是請謝伊鳳謝委員"},{"start":11943.029,"end":11946.871,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請楊總裁楊總裁總裁早安今天討論的是日圓貶值那其實不只日圓還有韓圓在這樣子競貶的情況下對於台灣的出口那當然很多的就是大家會認為在相似程度高的情況下那對於台灣的出口是不是就是"},{"start":11973.061,"end":11975.942,"text":"基本上就是說我們在我們的報告裡面提到就是說"},{"start":11991.639,"end":12015.713,"text":"我們台灣的一個出口呢主要的還是受到國際景氣因素的影響在匯率的這個部分呢比較他雖然可能他也是原因但是他的原因不比這個國際經濟的一個景氣來的重要那所以呢你剛剛就講到就是說"},{"start":12017.08,"end":12033.836,"text":"日本的出口還有南韓的出口因為南韓他也是貶值日本也是貶值但是我跟委員報告那你也提到就是說臺幣貶值的幅度沒有比他高但是我跟委員報告事實上我們的出口都比他們好"},{"start":12035.208,"end":12057.533,"text":"所以那如果我們還貶值大一點的時候那貶值大一點那第一個就是說貶值大一點好不好我們現在就是說貶值我們中央銀行的職責在我們中央銀行法裡面就講到我們中央銀行的一個職責維持匯率的相對穩定"},{"start":12058.453,"end":12063.176,"text":"我知道那我們很難就是說我們來讓它促貶然後來提高競爭力好像這個也不是我們的職責我們讓我們的新台幣升值然後來能夠提升我們的讓我們的產業能夠產業升級這個也不是我們的職責"},{"start":12081.406,"end":12094.477,"text":"事實上這兩個是不是能夠達到這樣的一個結果呢?說實在的我們都還是懷疑所以就中央銀行來講的話我們遵守我們中央銀行法讓新台幣的匯率能夠穩定"},{"start":12097.082,"end":12118.422,"text":"我想要看一下,你能不能放下一張投影片就是我們看一下我們的CPI喔就是CPI其實從過去以來喔我們看到這10年以來CPI的那個我們這10年以來其實CPI每年的年增率都是維持在1左右的這樣子的情況喔"},{"start":12120.503,"end":12145.908,"text":"過去以來1.5或者是1是我們的常態但是從從我們的2022年2023年其實我們發現有可能是疫情的關係有可能是原物料上漲的原因好像都維持了一個2點多以上的這樣子的幅度那未來會不會2點多是"},{"start":12150.01,"end":12164.144,"text":"所以委員講的這個也是重點所以我們中央銀行我們也是一直在關心我們的通膨是不是結果上會有一些的改變這個就是委員現在講的一個重點"},{"start":12165.265,"end":12180.105,"text":"事實上我跟委員報告我們上一次會調升利息主要的也是我們也是認為就是說我們連續4年都差不多在2%那這個跟我們以前的那個結果稍微有一點不大一樣"},{"start":12180.766,"end":12198.654,"text":"我覺得剛剛委員就是說我們以前大概平均這個剛剛我也是在講跟那個王委員在講就是說事實上我們從2008年以後到2019年之前我們的通膨都平均不到1%那這個2%第一個2%大概當然就是說相較之下我們跟以前來比較的話我們的民眾會比較不習慣"},{"start":12207.458,"end":12229.16,"text":"但是呢,它畢竟它是一個就是說原物料的上漲嘛主要的是這樣子嘛COVID-19的因素嘛,二無戰爭嘛那這些的因素呢導致但是呢,結果委員在講結果是不是作為改變這是我們中央銀行現在在密切注意的但是,其實從民間的角度來看"},{"start":12229.841,"end":12240.065,"text":"他們認為他們受到這些通膨的影響更大。所以,是不是我們的CPI有失真的情況?事實上呢,我們的CPI是368項的"},{"start":12249.128,"end":12270.857,"text":"加權平均的總和但是呢我們民眾比較會關注的就是說第一個17項的民生用品對不對還有就是說每個月至少購買一次的商品但是呢很不幸的就是說在這一段期間呢因為這個都是跟原物料跟外食跟什麼房租這些有關係這個呢"},{"start":12272.978,"end":12299.954,"text":"就是說它的一個平均的高度都比你的CPI來得高所以呢這個就會產生委員現在所講的說民眾所感受的跟你的CPI不一樣不過呢我也必須要承認就是說事實上呢在每個月每個月就是說買至少購買一次的這個CPI的那個物價呢事實上呢它是比CPI都高這個第一點"},{"start":12300.794,"end":12320.28,"text":"那你的那個17項的那個也是一樣的不過我跟委員報告基本上從去年開始我們的這些至少購買一次的還有17項的這些的物價都是慢慢慢慢的在下降"},{"start":12321.36,"end":12342.999,"text":"不只是說這兩項事實上CPI也是慢慢的在下降所以呢也就是說我們中央銀行的一個利率政策呢主要我們是看的是CPI那我們也不能說是房租針對房租說上漲我們的貨幣政策都要做某些的調整不是中央銀行的貨幣政策是看整個的"},{"start":12344.18,"end":12363.078,"text":"但是呢人民的感受呢是這些17項啊還有我那個什麼還有就是說那個至少購買一個不過我還是要強調的這些的物價呢是都是慢慢在下來都是慢慢在下來還有一個問題我最後還請教一個問題就是我們GDP第一季那個"},{"start":12363.918,"end":12386.937,"text":"我們第一季的數字是非常亮眼的那是因為我們去年同期的基期非常低嘛對這樣的情況下但是為什麼民眾對於我們GDP的這樣子大幅度的上升有可能我們第一季是6.56嘛那全年度可能又調升了嘛可能快要接近4左右了對不對"},{"start":12388.118,"end":12414.299,"text":"為什麼民眾沒有感受呢?我跟委員報告事實上我們的GDP是我們總體的經濟的表現那我們的個人特別是弱勢者或是說比較那個就是說因為他的薪資因為他的薪資成長的幅度不過高"},{"start":12415.2,"end":12415.22,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":12443.757,"end":12450.902,"text":"邀請羅廷偉羅委員不在請何欣淳委員不在請林俊憲林委員不在請鍾嘉斌鍾委員不在請蘇清泉蘇委員不在請麥玉珍"},{"start":12473.957,"end":12476.158,"text":"因為時間關係,我們是發言完畢才結束。"},{"start":12502.861,"end":12504.222,"text":"你要請總裁,謝謝。請楊總裁。總裁好。楊總裁在我們財經界一言九鼎,你的預測大家都非常引以為歸念。但是3月的時候,當時你的對物價的預測跟台電跟經濟部不一樣。"},{"start":12524.794,"end":12531.995,"text":"3月的時候當時因為台電預計4月漲電價所以總裁預測說會造成通膨當時是講說會從1.89%到2.16%所以我們當時央行也做了準備我們當時也做了升息的準備國際上很多國家都降息但我們升息了那現在實際上電價已經漲了"},{"start":12552.239,"end":12577.738,"text":"已經漲了那我想問一下總裁啦因為當時經濟部跟你唱反調經濟部說總裁你誤會了實際上漲電價不會造成通膨啦然後很多梗圖還甚至說那個什麼烘焙店也不會有什麼影響那現在電價也實施了當然可能還沒有收到帳單啦可是問題是很多電價已經先前反應了嘛因為他們預期電價會漲所以他們很多產品都已經漲了對"},{"start":12578.939,"end":12590.508,"text":"所以不知道說央行有沒有最新的通膨的預測有沒有還是跟3月一樣嗎我跟委員報告事實上因為這個統計數據的調查是主計總署主計總署你看看他的4月份的是下來是1.95"},{"start":12604.558,"end":12620.723,"text":"所以就是說它的通膨率是有效的但是我要跟委員報告的就是說我們當時升息的主要的理由不是說電價調漲馬上就會通膨就會上來 不是我們是說"},{"start":12622.711,"end":12648.318,"text":"這個因為社會上都一直在討論那討論的時候呢就是會導致通膨的預期所以呢中央銀行的升息的理由呢是說我們要抑制這個通膨預期的這個現象那還有就是說我們說我們升息呢事實上呢也不是只有針對一年我跟委員報告我們在我們的新聞稿裡面我們在強調我們為什麼會升息因為"},{"start":12649.398,"end":12672.891,"text":"我們的通膨從202121年開始連續4年幾乎都超過2%總裁因為你講的很多新聞都寫了我現在主要是要問因為我們主要是民眾會擔心未來發展的狀況是是是沒有錯因為現在電價也逐漸都漲了賬單接下來都收到了電價很多都反映了請問一下"},{"start":12673.511,"end":12694.91,"text":"通膨還會持續嗎?您對未來的預估是怎樣?然後央行的因應作為是什麼?我跟委員報告,事實上我剛才也有報告過好嗎?事實上呢,通膨現在是有下降區但是呢,我們那你提到就是說我們3月份的時候我們通膨的預測是2.16"},{"start":12697.432,"end":12708.286,"text":"但是呢我們下一季呢我們還是會有新的一個數據因為主計總署呢他從他的第一次前一次的時候呢他說那為什麼你們或主計處講的數據會跟經濟部預測不一樣事實上差一點點而已差一點點就差很多啊沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":12716.656,"end":12721.66,"text":"事實上每一個預測的單位你不要說不可能每一個單位在做預測的時候大家都是一樣不可能因為他會對這個項對這個項對這個項他的一個看法謝謝總裁再來我想問一下也是幫我們年輕朋友問的年輕朋友在想說到底該不該買房"},{"start":12739.714,"end":12768.155,"text":"因為央行不斷的說釋出很多打房的政策嘛讓年輕人覺得說我是不是還一點再買比較好因為未來房價會低啦但財政部因為有那個新清安的貸款嘛蠻多年輕人也利用這個機會趕快去買房子啦所以這有媒體報導就說這有產生矛盾啦所以年輕人現在就那我到底該不該買勒對不對央行告訴我說房價會跌啊然後但是感覺上房市又很熱所以你有沒有給年輕人什麼建議"},{"start":12769.496,"end":12792.366,"text":"我沒有,好,那如果說要講建議的話呢,我只是說因為新青蘭的這個房價,它的期限從30年增加到40年,它的一個,就是說它的頭期5年之內不用還本"},{"start":12793.447,"end":12800.782,"text":"在這種而且他有那個利息上的補貼那我們只能告訴他就是說你的財務的規劃要謹慎"},{"start":12803.775,"end":12811.343,"text":"為什麼因為他他這個期間長第一個他的偷偷他你現在就問我說是不是要不要買房這個我沒辦法回答對我沒辦法回答你"},{"start":12826.218,"end":12832.404,"text":"那現在央行的措施哪一些會比較有效果?我們6月13日會有禮監事會啊我們會討論這個問題會討論?那現在的負案是什麼?我們6月13日就會知道了因為我跟委員報告我們是一個委員會那總裁你個人的想法因為你也是專業人嘛"},{"start":12850.401,"end":12863.676,"text":"我想我跟委員報告第一個我們也是在10天之內是緘默期啦這是第一個第二個是財委員制的我現在跟各位來講說你的護安是什麼也沒有多大意義"},{"start":12864.377,"end":12883.729,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":12893.522,"end":12914.725,"text":"發言完畢本次會議就如下決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充諮詢請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從期鎖定三、委員陳玉珍"},{"start":12915.706,"end":12934.285,"text":"所提書面質詢．列入紀錄刊登公報．並請相關部會以書面答覆。4本次會議議程已進行完畢．如果不在場委員部提書面質詢．亦並列入紀錄刊登公報．並請醫事人員協助處理。散會"}]}},{"id":"15994","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15994","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d4f41088fe7fdcd9edbed544b35c5f3ca3be8d109af184be42c1218b1380c6e6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-06T08:31:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:47:00+08:00","duration":11760,"影片長度":"03:16:00","委員發言時間":"08:31:00 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廖建新政戰局局長 陳玉玲軍備局局長 林文祥主計局局長 謝其賢軍醫局局長 蔡建松政規司司長 李士強資規司司長 鄧克雄法律司司長 沈世偉"},{"start":1992.281,"end":2015.633,"text":"整評司司長苗慧芬國防採購事主任趙雅萍人事參謀次長是次長劉佩智勤次是次長顏有賢作戰及計劃參謀次長是次長陳文新後勤參謀次長是次長陳道輝通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長盧建宗"},{"start":2023.814,"end":2033.037,"text":"訓司室次長張俊志陸軍參謀長陳建毅海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長曹敬平後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉縣指部參謀長呂正芳陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長劉清薰支通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良"},{"start":2055.14,"end":2071.619,"text":"軍情局第一處處長鄧敦仁電展室執行長許益新中科院院長張忠誠本日會議邀請新任國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況．並備質詢我們請顧部長上台報告"},{"start":2086.297,"end":2102.451,"text":"各位委員先進,面對區域安全情勢變化、中共軍力擴張及共軍持續對我軍事威懾等嚴峻挑戰,國軍持續推動各項建軍備戰工作,今天應邀至大院委員會實施業務報告,將針對當前11項重要國防事任計劃進行報告。"},{"start":2108.901,"end":2130.281,"text":"1.掌握敵情威脅,共軍持續以台海周邊進行灰色地帶侵擾,並共軍以海空兵力聯合警巡漁業中線抵近24里線給予國防軍事壓力。2.藉由海空兵力沿海長航、火箭機飛彈試射及兩棲部隊登陸演習等軍事行動,"},{"start":2132.746,"end":2148.576,"text":"驗證了對台作戰能力,面對共軍各類擒擾太陽,國軍持續整合情資,爭取早期預警,結合三軍戰備徵詢任務,世界部署海空徵收系統及載航基建,"},{"start":2150.466,"end":2157.253,"text":"積極應處共軍各種軍事違則另一共軍可能軍事行動設計各類想定狀況納入各部隊戰備訓練項目保持常態演練以提升部隊應變能力"},{"start":2164.422,"end":2180.937,"text":"2.漢光演習漢光演習4月下旬已完成電腦輔助指揮所演習至重點以平站轉換機制去中心化指管及首次驗證接戰規定等並將首獲結論納入7月實兵驗證科目規劃實兵演練預化於7月22至26日依整體防空聯合階級作戰"},{"start":2188.504,"end":2189.746,"text":"及聯合國土防衛作戰進程實施實兵實彈操演。實戰化訓練國軍應年度計劃執行各"},{"start":2199.637,"end":2218.761,"text":"執行各項戰訓工作,採實兵實地實作方式,遂行作戰演練,提升防衛作戰能力。各部隊以駐基地與連戰演訓貫穿年度訓練,以責任作戰地境或海空域實施戰術巡軍、野戰輸引、戰場經營、海空聯合執管與接戰程序演練等實戰化訓練項目。"},{"start":2224.702,"end":2251.382,"text":"等實戰化訓練科目：使官兵首人戰場環境驗證幹部職參作業及狀況處置能力．強化防衛作戰能力．同時於敵情威脅以敵可能行動及設計演訓想定．結合戰力保存及防衛作戰場景．備提升作戰計劃執行能力及後勤支援能量"},{"start":2252.503,"end":2263.397,"text":"一年期義務役113年1月1日起開始徵集94年次以後出生義男服一年期義務役期5月底接訓3500預言為強化訓練內容四個月軍事訓練役及一年期義務役113年期"},{"start":2270.165,"end":2297.207,"text":"陸武訓練均調整為8週,增加快反射擊、戰傷救護、近戰格鬥等項目。期末建設正和交易以野外3天2夜、晝夜連續實施行軍、宿營及戰鬥狀況演練,使義南達合格戰鬥兵標準。新式陸武訓練課程執行期間,期末建設合格率達9成以上。陸武完訓後分發守備部隊服役,持續強化"},{"start":2299.788,"end":2323.835,"text":"單兵戰技等訓練並以作戰任務及編制專長師訓結合年度訓練流入接受基地測考驗證訓練成效為落實藝男照顧及增進其權益依依藝男徒役期間處支領薪額及專業佳績外是單位駐地可在支領地域佳績應應增集人數逐年遞增113年規劃完成營運"},{"start":2330.336,"end":2357.262,"text":"臨雲崗營區等7處新安裝範新建兵設提供一覽優質住用環境提升作戰韌性﹐國軍持恆建構自主保修能量提升戰備存量多重指管備援及強化戰傷救護等作為以保持戰力完整支持防衛作戰需求為及時掌握全軍部隊後勤現況﹐持續強化用兵後勤系統"},{"start":2359.002,"end":2371.09,"text":"後勤資訊系統可有效提升後勤志願效率,為強化戰鬥持續力,以完成糧木、油料及彈藥等補給品戰備儲量調整,可滿足暫時所需,同時持續編列預算採購F16等試行機,"},{"start":2377.354,"end":2397.65,"text":"所需零附件令整合作戰區內所有建置數據執行補給品前進囤儲等整備作業以降低戰損及縮短增補的時效並藉由漢光演習針對民務力增購用軍需工業加速產制實施驗證非暫時維持防衛作戰韌性為支援連戰指管"},{"start":2404.135,"end":2425.302,"text":"機制持恆運作,國軍持續提升職管通知韌性,建立多重職管備援手段。有關降低人員傷亡方面,參考美軍戰傷救護發展,在戰傷救護訓練方面,年度規劃實施1萬餘人次訓練,讓第一線作戰官兵具備自救護救能力。"},{"start":2426.941,"end":2436.265,"text":"6.全民防衛動員,年度全民防衛動員及災害防救民安10號演習於4月至7月實施,以暫時情況下複合式災害搶救為主軸,並首度結合民間緊急應變隊"},{"start":2443.227,"end":2452.058,"text":"協助就在應用,協助5月底完成桃園市等6場次,軍民聯合防空的萬安47號演習域7月22至25日結合漢光兵隊演習實施,以強化整備作為。"},{"start":2458.996,"end":2473.979,"text":"令同步實施物力動員自強40號演習,執行軍需物資與軍事運輸動員等科目,藉以提升動員準備效能,強化軍民整合機制。加強後備戰力,為加強後備戰力113年教召訓練、調整射擊訓練及戰鬥教練等課程時數,令增加14天教召訓和7900餘演。"},{"start":2486.301,"end":2500.612,"text":"．定堅持後備戰力基礎．年度軍事人力動員的童星34號演習．以漢邦兵推．漢邦實兵的演習想定．以在地動員．在地運用原則．各種"},{"start":2501.915,"end":2515.617,"text":"演練各種狀況,磨練後備部隊,立即動員,立即作戰效能,把建構不對稱佔領,針對中共快速奪取台灣,避免外力介入,不對稱建軍目標進行兵力整建,"},{"start":2517.915,"end":2539.326,"text":"在國防自主部份籌建、入設建構新型野戰防空系統等裝備,在對美軍購部份則籌購愛國者三型增程防空飛彈、新式戰機及空對面、對空、對海之遠程精準武器導入無人化及人工智慧,持續強化防衛作戰人性。"},{"start":2540.146,"end":2564.967,"text":"本部透過國防自主及對美軍購方式籌建所需武器裝備,113年度軍事投資預算獲付1,255億元,其中持續案編列1,077億元,持續推動基建國造等重大計劃,令新增案編列178億元,致重點於建構無人載具及強化分散制止管系統及防護能量。"},{"start":2565.928,"end":2579.576,"text":"美國會制定《強化台灣任性法》授權美行政部門應用外國軍事融資等方式協助我國提升現代化防衛作戰能力,通過迄今以2023獲得1.35億元無償FMF外,國會"},{"start":2586.54,"end":2601.894,"text":"2024年3月通過《綜合撥款法》提供臺灣不少於3億美元之FMF,4月國安補充撥款法額外依註,包含臺灣在內等印太區域國家20億美元FMF,"},{"start":2603.135,"end":2615.545,"text":"美國務院更在2025年度會計年度預算內首度指明編列1億美元FMF於我國,其能將原台FMF制度化。此外,112年7月28日以PDA"},{"start":2619.191,"end":2638.535,"text":"無償提供我3.45億美元軍事裝備,亦將我國IMET等級調升,使我國得以較優惠價格護美諮詢,軍事教育訓練。本部與我國實際防衛作戰需求與美方討論並逐步推動各項兵力整建,持續強化防衛作戰韌性,並維護區域和平穩定。"},{"start":2642.436,"end":2654.598,"text":"實施推動國防自主,本部積極紮根國防自主,整合國內產學研究科研能量,推展國防先進科技研究及武器系統研製,其能帶動國防產業供應鏈發展,擴大產業規模。國際國造規劃自106年至115年產至新式高焦機66架,113年預計焦機18架。國建國造持續推動新一代輕型巡防艦等五型艦籌建。"},{"start":2672.057,"end":2687.471,"text":"高相能戰艦艇第一批以113年全速交軍服務、潛艦刻意節點執行裝備功能及博港測試作業、以新型救難艦及新一代新型群防艦經按計劃節點管制、海空戰力提升計劃規劃以125年完成9型精準彈藥"},{"start":2692.555,"end":2721.281,"text":"精準飛彈的量產作業,迄今產至進度軍政廠。本部持續督管中科醫醫計劃目標,籌建三軍所需武器裝備,以達成建軍目標。十一,照顧官兵生活。本部陸力推動軍人的服務照顧,積極完善生活設施,並要求幹部主動關懷協處疑難,使官兵得以專注於戰訓本務工作。為使官兵享有完整醫療照顧,提供官兵"},{"start":2723.352,"end":2749.791,"text":"就醫醫療優惠令官兵每年可接受一年一次年度體檢及早防患各項疾病確為官兵健康近期國軍發生豎起自殺自傷事件令人遺憾及不捨照顧官兵健康包括心理健康國軍責無旁貸為降低再發生相同憾事的風險部隊應積極提供醫療諮商及輔導資源建立心理"},{"start":2750.752,"end":2779.998,"text":"之心理健康之正確觀念鼓勵官兵在生活上遇到任何問題時能夠向同袍、長官或專業醫療人士救助避免心理健康遭污名化令持續協助官兵財務規劃及緊急紓困需求以強化官兵財務管理及防患詐騙職能本部持續推動銀色整建專案建造符合部隊助訓用功能完整"},{"start":2781.846,"end":2807.796,"text":"且溫馨舒適之現代化影射其113年累計完工87案另為滿足官兵幼兒托育需求113年完成公共化教保設施立案30處76班有效落實軍人安家軍艦安心之政策本部隊軍人權益保障及照顧官兵及官兵生活照顧則無旁貸"},{"start":2809.236,"end":2823.421,"text":"其藉創造優質溫馨的服役環境,促進部隊團結向行,使官兵安心服役,入力戰備訓練工作。國軍更需配合政府執行各類災害防救任務,"},{"start":2824.361,"end":2825.121,"text":"好,謝謝顧部長,請回"},{"start":2848.479,"end":2870.843,"text":"那我們補充介紹黃仁委員跟洪森漢委員那兩位還沒有到場我剛剛已經有宣告三件事情我再補充宣告一次第一個因為禮拜四都有軍團所以我們國防委員會原力軍團都一定會準價所以顧部長在12點的時候會先行離席去參加三軍統帥所召開的軍團那"},{"start":2874.124,"end":2874.364,"text":"本會委員6加2分鐘"},{"start":2895.299,"end":2914.639,"text":"非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出那11點左右我會看詢答的狀況來進行處理首先進行詢答的是沈博洋委員你是史上第一個質詢顧立雄部長的人"},{"start":2922.745,"end":2923.87,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請顧部長 謝謝來 部長請"},{"start":2933.467,"end":2954.657,"text":"政務委員好部長好沒有想到在這個地方又再遇到了我今天因為時間因素我就直接切入主題最主要就是因為現在是新的部長新的氣象之前我們都有整理一些跟改革計畫有關的一個表格我們通常把改革分成四大類第一大類是跟管理有關的也是最多的就是說"},{"start":2955.397,"end":2980.019,"text":"譬如說我們常常講說要簡化業務但是我們在跟國軍這個訪談的時候就發現有時候簡化業務又變成一個新的業務所以就變得更忙那所以這一類管理類的我待會可能會問一些問題那第二個是跟戰訓類的像這個提政部啊等等之類的那軍備呢蠻多都是在辦公室呢其實都有做一些協調所以今天我不提那最後法規類的因為它涉及到比較長期的所以這個我可能會放在後面"},{"start":2980.479,"end":3007.748,"text":"所以今天我最主要想問兩大類一個就是跟戰訓有關的一個是跟管理有關的那戰訓有關這一邊是因為剛好看到的就是馬上這是520之後的這個新聞就是說我們當然都希望部隊能夠專注在這個戰訓本務那我們有看到今年這個校慶說取消聯兵旅政部以回歸這個戰訓本務看起來是一個蠻好的開始那想問部長就是針對這一個部分提政部這件事情目前來講規劃是什麼"},{"start":3010.44,"end":3037.27,"text":"跟委員報告首先第一個就是聯兵旅的部分本來有六個聯兵旅各派一個聯來參與這一個黃埔百年的校慶那這個部分我將它取消也就是說讓聯兵旅回到他的戰訓本部不用那因為這個百年的校慶還是以官兵學生為主體所以聯兵旅的部分就就不用再參與這個黃埔的百年校慶那另外呢這個有關這個"},{"start":3039.311,"end":3059.92,"text":"黃埔的校慶的學生連的部分因為之前就已經說要已經他們已經訓練提政部有好幾個月了那我想我尊重原來邱部長的這個決策我就不改變他但我現在"},{"start":3061.681,"end":3087.72,"text":"要求他們就是說以後呢我們就以齊步的方式為主也就是說之後的校慶呢就以齊步的方式來進行就不再提政部這樣子謝謝部長那關於這個提政部的部分另外還有就是我常提到這個刺槍那這一個呢就是單純是因為我們現在呢前面有這一個所謂的這個防火帽那當然呢如果真的在接戰的時候呢這種刺槍所以有時候真的是也是蠻慢的"},{"start":3088.72,"end":3117.906,"text":"現在我有看到在訪談國軍的過程當中有提到有另外一種衝擊型的防火帽就它防火帽本身就已經有能夠刺傷敵人的效果了這個其實對於我們自己的兵工廠可能也會有生產的可能所以這一個部分只是一個建議這個部分並非需要回答但可能之後看相關的部會是不是能夠說明看看有沒有這方面的一個方向因為對我們來講作戰需求才是最重要的事情這跟替正部級有點類似的概念"},{"start":3118.346,"end":3138.205,"text":"我們現在有一個近戰格鬥的一個項目的一個基本訓練所以凡是不符合近戰格鬥的這個概念範圍之內的我們都會將它取消所以傳統那個突刺突刺的那一種比較不具有近戰格鬥的部分我們會加以取消好 謝謝部長"},{"start":3138.846,"end":3166.847,"text":"那另外呢就是回歸到今天比較重要的就是跟管理有關的問題那這個部長應該也知道在這一段時間就是呢這一個國軍自傷的這些案件是頻傳那我們當然都知道呢國軍畢竟在作戰這個壓力什麼等等之類的是需要被解消的那他其實這個壓力的來源非常多多元我們不可能今天在這邊完全的一一盤點那這邊我提出兩個比較重要的第一個就是因為畢竟我們除了這方面的問題之外呢我們的"},{"start":3167.467,"end":3171.229,"text":"關於這個方面是不是部長有相關的一些規劃對於減輕這個不管是主觀或關閉壓力的一些政策"},{"start":3192.692,"end":3220.435,"text":"我想因為經過這幾年的這個相關的這個對於我們現在臺海這個周邊的這些敵情的應處大家都已經有相關的處置的經驗跟能力的提升所以我想我就決定就是說回到我們2023就是112年經常戰備時期的突發狀況處置規定來做就可以了也就是說回歸到說原來他就有一個相關的一個"},{"start":3221.616,"end":3222.257,"text":"現在可以休假了"},{"start":3238.16,"end":3265.107,"text":"那休假對南北洋也是好事但我們休假有這種互助回報的機制這個在營休假還要參加點名各級對夏普斯加訪就是說左邊這個很多匿名的一些意見我們就把它放在這邊也就是說這個休假到現在還要做這種互助回報他到底有沒有辦法真的有效去提高戰力還是說反而造成他們在休假的一個困擾沒有辦法真的達到休假這件事情所以不知道部長在這邊有沒有什麼一個往下改善的政策"},{"start":3265.527,"end":3281.301,"text":"是,我們已經確定有關於每天都要回報的那個部分要把它廢除掉也就是說有事再回報那另外我們會在離任的時候呢會跟他做一個宣教也就是說在休假期間要注意的事項就可以了"},{"start":3282.341,"end":3309.034,"text":"所以我總的來講是這樣子我們現在應該要回到戰訓本務所以相關的一些作為我們用檢法的方式來加以處理剛剛委員所問的問題都會是涉及到我們檢法比如說我們近戰格鬥是屬於實戰化訓練的一部分那如果形式主義的部分過多那這個不符合戰訓的本務我們把它取消那每天都要回報這件事情也過於形式主義我們會把它取消掉那有關說自由行或者是"},{"start":3310.875,"end":3325.16,"text":"不能參加自由行這個部分我想這也過於形式主義所以我們也會把這個部分取消掉也就是說盡量來主義來檢討哪些部分那我們用檢法的方式來取消那專注於這個人員裝備訓練這個部分的戰訓戰備整備的任務的本質這樣子"},{"start":3330.679,"end":3357.625,"text":"謝謝部長,那我們之後應該都會往這個大方向來追蹤,就是說我們大方向就是要回歸戰訓本務,然後我們也希望用檢法的方式,所以就是希望不要說是,今天檢法的時候,結果到最後又變成每一個人為了這個檢法,然後竟然還要申出一份報告,然後往上去說,我們有做到檢法這件事情,那這個會造成大家的困擾。我們就主一,不再增加業務說要去檢討這件事情,我們就是看到什麼問題,然後我們就把它檢掉,這樣直接檢掉就可以了。"},{"start":3358.025,"end":3375.994,"text":"感謝部長那最後因為作為這個文人部長最後還是就是很希望就是說因為國防部長跟參謀總長我們有軍備我們有這個軍令還有軍證那當然還是希望就是部長的專注在這個軍證跟軍備上面然後支持國軍然後那這個軍令的部分跟這一個參謀總長依照現在國防二法有一個"},{"start":3378.215,"end":3378.975,"text":"國防部長關注政策戰略及建軍整體評估"},{"start":3405.225,"end":3423.291,"text":"戰略層級以下的作戰跟戰術層級的部分我會交給參謀總長來負責因為本來依照國防部組織法的規定就是指揮三軍作戰本來就是參謀總長應該要做的事情但是在戰略層級上面我還是會專注於跟總長一起來討論我們執行建構我們的防衛構想的戰略"},{"start":3434.083,"end":3434.984,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是洪森翰委員"},{"start":3472.45,"end":3495.455,"text":"謝謝主席,請顧部長來,部長請部長,今天是你第一次到我們國防外交委員會來備詢你知不知道我現在照片裡面的兩位是誰右邊這一位是不是ISPA"},{"start":3499.839,"end":3523.947,"text":"左邊這一位呢是在甘迺迪時期也是很有名的文人的國防部長麥拉瑪拉他以前是世界銀行的行長那也幫助美國度過古巴的飛彈危機右邊其實是倫斯斐那他曾經擔任過福特跟小布希時期的國防部長那他很經典的是用企業管理的方法來幫助國軍改革效率"},{"start":3525.427,"end":3542.92,"text":"現在大家都知道其實國防的改革是重中之重國防是非常非常關鍵的台灣接下來能夠繼續生存下去關鍵的工作所以我覺得我們要讓社會大眾包括軍民都要有信心的地方是我們要讓大家知道為什麼在這個階段"},{"start":3545.15,"end":3571.964,"text":"賴清德總統或我們新的政府要用一位文人部長我覺得這部分我們應該讓社會更清楚知道這件事情這段時間我們也看到有些媒體對於你擔任國防部長有些挑戰所以我們現在跟大家講得很清楚其實在其他的國家很多的民主國家大家看到使用用文人部長來用文人來擔任國防部長這是一個常態性的事情其實甚至相比這個如果用球隊來看"},{"start":3573.385,"end":3599.746,"text":"假設總統就像是球隊老闆來決定這個球隊的方向其實國防部長就像是我們的管理的經理他是要做資源的管理配置的工作那參謀總長其實就像是總教練要領導比賽要來打仗這其實就是在這裡面一個非常非常重要的權責上面的分工那部長剛才在回答省委員的質詢裡面其實有講到你一直講到"},{"start":3600.367,"end":3603.01,"text":"部長,接下來我想問幾件事情。第一個事情是"},{"start":3624.431,"end":3640.137,"text":"在今年3月的時候其實我那時候就有質詢前出國政部長關於我們看到我們大概有18萬的國軍的人員軍職人員不管你是軍人還是隸屬在國防部下的還是是在國防醫學院下的"},{"start":3640.717,"end":3659.166,"text":"不管是醫護人員都要受到所謂出國的管制你只要出國對不起你就必須一定要跟團這幾乎是幾十年來的規定那當時我們說這樣子為什麼要這樣做的目的是因為保安保安或者是防止洩密可是大家發現不對啊這個做法"},{"start":3663.677,"end":3678.677,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3678.697,"end":3680.097,"text":"部長,很高興你這幾天給出了具體的回應"},{"start":3699.887,"end":3729.055,"text":"對,我們已經要廢止這個強制要跟團的這樣的規定也就是說自由行是可以的那只是說要提醒這些官兵在出遊的時候要注意這個旅遊的警示然後疫情的警示那另外我們可能還是要提醒他們要避免被滲透進行一些反滲透的宣教的概念"},{"start":3729.335,"end":3739.528,"text":"我昨天已經拿到這個國防部他新頒布的溝文6月5號也就是過去的國軍人員出國業務作業規定即日起停止適用那在這裡面看起來"},{"start":3741.223,"end":3770.585,"text":"加了一個自助旅遊我們看到這是已經從昨天6月5號開始發布的規定其實從昨天發布的這個規定以後我們今天從早上開始其實收到非常非常多國軍弟兄透過各種留言的方式表達感謝包括感謝國防部感謝新的部長也感謝過去邱部長也開始做這些事情的檢討因為真的有太多不只是軍人包括軍眷有些跟我們反映他可能嫁給了一個軍人"},{"start":3771.066,"end":3775.82,"text":"可是因為這樣子的規定可能已經十多年沒有跟先生出過國了"},{"start":3777.403,"end":3806.849,"text":"沒有跟先生出過國因為想自由行沒有跟先生出過國可是我們要強調一件事情過去國防部這個做法的理由是說我們要保安跟防止洩密反滲透但我們現在是說這是無效的所以我們還是要要求重點這不是只是鬆綁而已這個是要用有效的取代無效的所以剛剛部長你說接下來我們對於軍人出國可能會帶來的這些洩密或者是被滲透的風險我們具體的做法可能會有哪些"},{"start":3808.458,"end":3823.332,"text":"我們剛剛提到我們還是會做一些這個房子被滲透的一些宣教的規定要做好保密房點的這樣子的一個配套措施"},{"start":3824.833,"end":3848.115,"text":"那順便跟委員報告一下也就是說我們另外這些揭密的人員我們現在在做安全查核上面也會仿效於美軍的做法就是說有揭密的有揭密看他揭密的程度就做出分級的做出他揭密的等級是然後我們要做好這個安全人員的查核OK"},{"start":3848.895,"end":3867.071,"text":"我自己當時在質詢的時候我們有建議國防部其實也許可以參考比如說像中科院或者是國安局他們的做法也就是說我要再強調一次這不是只是鬆綁因為國安對我們來說當然至關重要但是要用有效的管理方法來取代無效的管理方法所以部長我們也很期待接下來"},{"start":3868.012,"end":3868.072,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3891.087,"end":3919.503,"text":"密等的這個程度我們做了分級然後不同的級別我們做出不同的管理的措施這其實是一個相對比較科學化的管理的方法部長對因為我們最近才完成初步的一個擴大的安全查核那接下來我想我們會再進一步做第二階段的這個安全查核那基本上我的看法就是依照美軍的做法就按照你不是你階級而是你接觸機密的這個等級來做這個必要的安全查核跟人員的管制這樣"},{"start":3920.523,"end":3940.169,"text":"我們很希望這是一個重要的新的一步我覺得這也讓大家知道其實一個文人部長在國防部可以扮演的角色尤其是帶來一些新的管理的思維不管是剛剛部長說的檢法的思維或者是資源新的配置的思維其實可以讓我們國軍弟兄包括我們在軍中各種"},{"start":3941.229,"end":3942.09,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員陳永康委員"},{"start":3991.052,"end":3992.333,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告業務概況"},{"start":4011.553,"end":4026.038,"text":"如果不能培養足夠的優秀人才國家進步的速度會跟不上國際的動態變化國軍戰力的提升因為人才不足受限於很多先進裝備來自美國"},{"start":4028.049,"end":4029.09,"text":"各位你看這張圖表就是我們三軍的軍事院校"},{"start":4055.202,"end":4076.983,"text":"那右邊的是國立的七所國立大學當然臺大永遠是第一名但是臺大的人均的平均起來北京清華大學是它的六倍第七名的復旦大學是臺大的三倍那臺灣大學又是我們的十倍"},{"start":4078.186,"end":4102.625,"text":"各位看一下國軍的八所軍事院校總共才27億5000多萬元海洋大學人口人數只有9000多人是30億我這裡面特別要提出的國軍為了培養人才送到美國去高階的子參教育跟戰略教育站院一個人一年13萬美金"},{"start":4104.773,"end":4132.94,"text":"那13萬美金在我們國內是開一班全年的教育經費所以教育水準的提升包括國防大學本身內理工學院政戰學院管理學院他都有碩博士班而國軍要接受教育部的教育評鑑可是卻不能參加教育部的高等教育深耕計劃這是一個不公平的"},{"start":4133.874,"end":4158.616,"text":"所以我的建言就是我們的教育經費不只是投資人才我們國防大學也有國際班我們還有辦遠鵬班還接受外國來台的中高階的軍官提供教育可是我們的預算就這麼一點點我個人的建議就是逐年調整五年內能夠要跟中山大學中央大學的這個水平來評"},{"start":4160.134,"end":4180.073,"text":"最主要的就是我們在學校教育裡面科技教育法治教育國際法武裝種族法戰服公約這都要納入教育在國外的只參教育是賦予學分戰略教育念完了就給予碩士學位這個可以振興我們的士氣也可以提升水準"},{"start":4181.038,"end":4209.936,"text":"那麼下個題目現在無人機啊已經是全世界的大趨勢我們國內民間跟中科院也都在發展但是民間發展的無人機啊我要提出一個建言就是它的通訊頻道頻寬以及它的展示效益不等於國軍接受以後你部隊用的頻寬我想請教一下我們現在光通訊裝備啊三拐C營集單位有多少部"},{"start":4216.344,"end":4224.71,"text":"因為你把無人機交給國軍到部隊去以後不能由國軍再去跟NCC講我要多少頻道"},{"start":4225.68,"end":4248.774,"text":"我的蹤跡是如何這個部分特別提醒注意現階段還沒有到無人機交艦但是因為無人機的國家隊這個產量非常大那這個飛機到了陸海空三軍以後是你軍種用你自己的通訊頻道來操作還是跟NCC申請這個能不能做一個簡單的回應"},{"start":4250.764,"end":4268.721,"text":"委員好,我是連六次長。針對於頻寬跟頻率的分配,我們針對不同形式的無人機,我們有跟NCC做一個頻段的分配。針對於近程、中程跟遠程,再去做一個裡面一個頻譜的調整,可以適應我們現在的一個整個未來的一個購案。"},{"start":4273.615,"end":4302.64,"text":"我這邊提醒注意不管是中華電信也好只要是微波的它的中繼塔如果斷掉了你在local就沒有用了我就是講這種輕型無人機每一架無人機就是一個手機門牌號當手機不通的時候你這種微型無人機就不能用了所以在獲取裝備之前我們要預留這種tolerance怎麼講呢中繼的天線它是固定塔我們改成機動台這樣子就可以支持你"},{"start":4303.18,"end":4327.038,"text":"所以飛機的本身不是問題我這邊提請注意謝謝委員這個部分我們中繼的部分我們也把它都有列入到考量包含我們手機的這些中繼的一些SIM卡的一個擴充這都有考量進去另外特別用俄烏戰爭跟以哈戰爭俄烏戰爭無人機發揮的效果因為幅員廣大目標識別容易但是以哈衝突以色列這麼先進"},{"start":4328.575,"end":4344.565,"text":"﹚"},{"start":4345.265,"end":4345.585,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4366.748,"end":4390.3,"text":"一到七以下由大學做八以上中科院所以四五六七中科院跟大學同步做因為大學有的時候專業的教授帶著研究生做完了計畫走人那或者技術外流因此我個人強烈的建議四五六七是要同步做而不是說七以上中科院這個不是刀切豆腐兩段的這個僅供參考"},{"start":4392.878,"end":4400.137,"text":"另外一個就是現在就說成立的國防科技作戰處直接公告選商我強烈建議要會辦軍備局"},{"start":4401.852,"end":4402.252,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4425.523,"end":4444.85,"text":"李公學院李公學院幫他彙整李公學院拿給中科院中科院拿給君總君總說我還是看不懂所以這個程序非常複雜我想中科院院長體會的出來我們站在立場是絕對支持最後就是講一個利健演習這邊只是帶過我們提供一個方法論"},{"start":4447.438,"end":4463.165,"text":"我們要一個共同圖像含括不只光台灣台灣周邊那麼這個是我們國防部苗機的演習範圍再套上我們的上兵伐謀發交發兵工程如何用手段最後邊右邊這張圖就是陸軍的UTM圖這個圖20年了還沒有變成數畫"},{"start":4469.718,"end":4494.633,"text":"﹚"},{"start":4495.975,"end":4511.482,"text":"我想數位的地圖我們現在正在進行當中,中科院的部分也如你所講的不是一刀兩切,但是一定要有一定的技術備變的水平,我們來進行這樣子,日後再請委員指教"},{"start":4513.769,"end":4540.285,"text":"最後30秒這次我們這是一個模擬的就是想定就是中共這次他有些是講他的意圖但並沒有做我們如何用一個方法論用一套這個資料庫的方法把他的這個目的方法手段反推找出我們的弱點反映時間這個東西我們在民間兵推已經可以公開但是數據全部是來自開放的開源資料所以"},{"start":4541.303,"end":4541.843,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是羅梅林委員﹖"},{"start":4573.981,"end":4576.442,"text":"謝謝主席 有請顧部長來 部長請羅委員好部長好部長 自從您520上任以來呢已經發生兩起這個國軍自傷的這個事件如果說我們往前推到今年初的話包含中科院在內"},{"start":4599.831,"end":4626.369,"text":"其實已經發生了18起的這個自傷事件那其實我們國防部在2016年以來一直強調就要讓軍中零自傷可是我們從2017年到今年的5月我們發現國軍總計有134人自殺身亡所以我們不禁要問到底我們的這個輔導機制哪裡出了問題是不是失靈了而且是不是要做通盤的這個檢討那是否我們要制定一個更有效的這個輔導的這個機制"},{"start":4629.392,"end":4639.641,"text":"本席今天想就這個事前輔導跟事後調查這兩部分來請教我們部長從1990年開始其實國防部我們就有建立了三級防處的這個機制那這個機制主要是要促進這個關閉的心理健康跟這個防範自殺可是我們發現說從1999年建立以來其實我們這個"},{"start":4654.935,"end":4680.717,"text":"關兵自殺的這個案例其實並沒有減少那其實這個是不是說其實單單從這個三級防處這部分我們就已經要來做檢討了經過這麼多年到底機制出了什麼的問題那我們從初級發掘預防到二級專業輔導到三級醫療處域我們從國防部提供的資料裡面覺得好像好像都有做到實際上"},{"start":4682.113,"end":4698.807,"text":"如果真的都有做到心理輔導讓這個官兵都心理的這個因素可以被紓解的話我在想這麼多年以來不會每一年都有十幾二十起的這個官兵智商的事件發生那我們從這個初級發掘預防這個部分像我們這個初級發掘預防是由來負責呢就是由各級的基層領導幹部來負責也就是說我們的輔導長那輔導長的工作是什麼呢"},{"start":4710.837,"end":4727.022,"text":"不是單單只有進行這個心理輔導而已他還有政戰業務他還有公文的處理他還要保密防諜等等是不是真的有辦法去發覺他身邊的同袍其實心裡產生了這個需要協助的這個問題"},{"start":4728.763,"end":4752.829,"text":"所以我覺得說我們由政戰來堅韌這就是有問題那第二級的專業輔導也是一樣也是由各級的輔導志工及民間諮詢機構來提供篩選其實我知道說這部分是由新輔官來負責那我們的新輔官真的全部都是專業嗎不單單輔導長沒專業新輔官其實有一半以上都沒有心理輔導相關的這個"},{"start":4754.502,"end":4754.822,"text":"請國防部部長"},{"start":4781.872,"end":4804.721,"text":"我先跟委員說明,因為詹再吉跟我報告都很多次了,那我個人的一個想法就是說第一集的部分他基本上經濟因素、感情因素、或者是家庭因素等等的那這些跟他同儕的這些人,跟他同儕"},{"start":4806.041,"end":4823.717,"text":"同儕的這些同袍他可能比較容易發覺他的相關的這些可能的一些異常的狀況那我覺得這些同儕也好或者是跟他比較接近的這些士官也好他們如果能夠"},{"start":4824.878,"end":4853.7,"text":"通報能夠來然後來進行一個防處的話我們必須要給他獎勵那要提供一個誘因給他讓讓這一個同儕跟這個士官們能夠在第一層的做好那第二層的專業輔導的部分確實如委員所講的就是說我們具有證照的辛苦能力還不足那我個人覺得就是說我們要引進民間的能量已經民間能量也就是說要"},{"start":4855.4,"end":4882.028,"text":"因為有一些人他不願意跟我們的本身的新服員來做那個,因為可能他感受到可能部隊會給他異樣的眼光這樣,所以他如果要到民間去做諮商的話,我個人覺得在這個部分應該要提供一個資源讓他到民間去做這樣,這是我初步兩點想法,那詳細還有很多的狀況,如果可以的話是請鄭蘭菊做一個"},{"start":4884.189,"end":4888.413,"text":"委員好,我是政戰局局長,跟委員報告,我們第一級初級防處的部分,並不是全部都是由這個政戰府老長來負責,我們的基層的這個排班的幹部,他們都是我們第一級就是預防發掘的重要的這個守門員。"},{"start":4906.65,"end":4910.071,"text":"那我們有匯整了相關就是維安防處的徵後有12大類包含家庭婚姻精神等等方面提供給他們做參考那另外鏈結民間新府資源提供給我們的官兵多一層的選擇我們今年有鏈結116所我們會努力去做當然發生這樣遺憾的事情我們深切的在檢討那部長也有指導我們就是在這個"},{"start":4936.078,"end":4937.78,"text":"連結民間心腹資源的這一塊我們是不是可以再擴大或者說我們引進民間的具有證照的心腹源我們來增加這個為官兵的健康來把關"},{"start":4952.312,"end":4952.412,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4982.692,"end":4983.133,"text":"國防大學及國防部訓練中心"},{"start":4998.625,"end":5021.318,"text":"不像台灣這樣子他這個國軍很大部分有時是用征戰來兼任他們的這些心腹人員大部分都是屬於軍醫體系而且大部分臨床心理人員都是在軍醫院來做服務你們所說的這個由這個民間來兼任那有沒有要走美國的這個方式就是說他們有所謂的軍務嗎"},{"start":5023.155,"end":5025.959,"text":"跟這個宗教也有關係,軍務他們也都有,我在想你們應該都有去取經過可是為什麼就是沒有看到有這個雛形出現到現在還在說我們可能試著跟民間來做鏈接"},{"start":5038.356,"end":5040.577,"text":"國防大學跟國防部都已經去過美國取經了為什麼美國的這個制度我們沒有辦法來做研擬了這部分我想我們會馬上來推動這樣子的一個那另外有關"},{"start":5064.729,"end":5077.216,"text":"委員我補充報告一下我們三級的這個機制裡面我們所有軍醫院的身心科跟精神科的這個醫生專業醫生所以馬局長有時候連二級都走不到了對不對所以你們第一級就出問題了可能有時候要從第一級"},{"start":5084.66,"end":5088.661,"text":"我真的覺得這個真的要通盤來做檢討,到底我們的這個輔導機真的出了問題,對不對?零智商其實就是一個很好笑的口號,對不對?"},{"start":5099.281,"end":5100.362,"text":"接下來進行勳答委員徐曉欣委員"},{"start":5132.778,"end":5134.201,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長來 部長請"},{"start":5143.585,"end":5168.639,"text":"社區委員好是部長您是文官上任所以對您未來在軍中的大刀闊斧改革我們有很多的期待首先要先肯定您哦取消實施兩年多以來因為兩岸情勢緊張的政府主觀不得同時理應相關規定以及呢開放國軍的自由行因為有太多我們過去對於軍人的限制再加上他們的負擔工作量很大"},{"start":5169.359,"end":5189.126,"text":"願意當兵的人肯定會變少以及想離營的人一定會變多所以我們希望在很多的制度上面可以做改革讓願意從軍的人他可以變多那不想待在部隊裡面的人變少那我想這個是第一個部分那再來呢我們要討論到今天很多人都談到了這個國軍的自傷案"},{"start":5191.687,"end":5220.058,"text":"那就我們所掌握到的資訊呢自傷未遂的案件我想要請問部長有沒有了解近期內到底還有幾期這是請責任局幫忙回答一下其實因為我覺得時間有限啦直接講就是還有四期的自傷未遂那所以等於說呢今年到五月的案件數量我想要請問一下部長你有沒有關心到跟去年的同期是幾倍差距有幾倍"},{"start":5221.312,"end":5235.021,"text":"您說智商的部分就今年5月跟去年同期的比較有幾倍我的理解我並不知道確確的幾倍但是我知道今年到現在為止算是高的"},{"start":5251.312,"end":5263.487,"text":"資商資格的人力不足,剛才委員有提到,您知道目前配置具備資格的等級是要到我們國軍的哪一個層級才有具備資商資格的相關人力嗎?"},{"start":5266.399,"end":5280.362,"text":"報告委員我們目前有我知道您知道啦我們是在問部長知不知道那沒關係齁因為我們時間很有限我直接告訴部長好不好是屢或群級以上的單位才配置對吧這個我跟您討論過很多次了"},{"start":5282.463,"end":5300.873,"text":"所以就算要向外求援也要呈報到旅籍的單位經同意後才到民間輔導單位去諮商而這沒有什麼道理我談過很多次了所以我們希望說可以扁平化在營籍或是下放權限到連籍第一線的主觀發現問題的時候"},{"start":5302.614,"end":5302.974,"text":"我請問一下國務部長的立場"},{"start":5330.097,"end":5350.032,"text":"您贊同我的意見,會往這個方向去辦理。好,謝謝。那再來我要詢問的是,據了解您是律師出身,所以也擔任過社團法人的臺灣人權促進會的會長。相信您對侵害人權、違反平權還有傷害他人隱私的事件應該是深惡痛絕的吧?"},{"start":5351.916,"end":5372.083,"text":"應該同意我還沒有要問你轉型爭議我要問你的是軍隊的改革的部分我相信是如此的那我們看一下下一張通訊片實際上我們在收到的這個戰情報告他們在5月30號的時候要求軍團要發下國防部全軍生育率調查表"},{"start":5372.563,"end":5391.805,"text":"然後呢要你呢在5月31號10點的時候把單位軍職及聘僱人員的生日情形回傳人行科然後我想要請問一下那個部長您因我不太確定您知不知道這件事情但您看到這樣子的說法之後您第一個時間的感受是什麼"},{"start":5393.24,"end":5416.407,"text":"跟委員報告這個詳細經營我不是非常好我理解來我們看下一張請先都不要幫不好回答因為我們都問過你們很多次了這個統計表長這樣部長您看一下他分成育有子女人數跟生育子女人數配偶同為均值人數然後配偶同為均值人數跟生育子女人數他的報表統計表長這樣"},{"start":5418.228,"end":5446.645,"text":"在5月30到5月31號填寫完畢那因為被報出來之後6月1號截止這樣子的一個過程可是我想問一下部長您作為律師你看到育有子女人數跟生育子女人數的差異在哪裡啊我這個部分我到現在都不懂我想要請教一下我看不懂我不知道要理解他們育有子女人數跟生育子女人數這兩者的差別在什麼地方"},{"start":5448.034,"end":5472.963,"text":"報告委員因為我完全沒有看過這個統計表來幫忙說明一下這可以說明了因為我真的很想知道答案委員我先說明一下這個秘密是我下的主要的目的是因為要統計我們全球所有的官士兵的子女因為我們現在都有育兒的教育就育兒托兒所那我們想統計的時候瞭解一下這個我們育兒"},{"start":5473.863,"end":5496.037,"text":"我問的問題是育幼跟生育的分別在哪?我問過你們了,我現在問的問題很單純,因為我們時間真的很有限,我只想知道育幼跟生育的差別在哪裡?如果我是一個國軍的士兵,我被我的長官要求要提供這樣的報表,那我要怎麼區分說育幼跟生育,差異到底在哪?"},{"start":5496.397,"end":5496.777,"text":"請你先別說了部長"},{"start":5514.426,"end":5533.138,"text":"我認為這樣的一個調查是相當傷害他人隱私權而且也引起了部隊裡面很多的人的不滿我知道你們可能是好意但是那你們是不是就救我們的這個國軍子女有沒有所謂的需要照顧或是照料來做申請"},{"start":5534.199,"end":5558.236,"text":"讓他們主動來申請嘛來我們看前一張你們是要求部隊在一天之內回報生育情形欸如果我是一個國軍我收到我是一個基層的軍人我收到你們對我有這樣子的要求第一個傻眼到不行第二個我會懷疑因為您剛講了您的意思可是我就我作為一個基層國軍我會懷疑說你現在是想要問我有沒有想要生小孩嗎"},{"start":5559.196,"end":5576.128,"text":"這是一個非常個人隱私Personal的問題因為育有子女說跟生育子女人數我看不出上面您剛講的說是離婚不離婚的差別部長你可不可以簡單敘述一下我把整個案情跟您做一個釐清你怎麼看待這樣子的事情在我們的軍中不斷的發生呢"},{"start":5576.528,"end":5605.145,"text":"第一個我同意委員的看法就是我們應該要檢討第二個就是說任何這個統計都要核目的性也就是說他的目的是為了什麼才去設計這樣的表格那這個表格跟他的這個核目的性的看起來沒有辦法能夠取得足夠的連結我想我們這個部分是所以呢再來因為您是律師我要再請教你一個問題這樣子的一個統計調查有沒有違反性別平等相關還有就業服務法相關的一些問題"},{"start":5606.717,"end":5623.764,"text":"我想這一個他本身的用意可能是良善的但是表格的設計可能是不是很適切的因為我們在救福法的第5條第2項第2款裡面其實寫得很清楚我們不得要求這個就業需要這個隱私的資料"},{"start":5624.384,"end":5642.894,"text":"雖然我知道軍人跟在外面的工作不太一樣但是本席還是希望我們能夠多導入一些牢記法的精神到我們的部隊裡面不能的部分我們尊重國軍但像這種明顯可以的部分我們希望軍隊能夠改善部長能夠承諾嗎?"},{"start":5644.423,"end":5654.189,"text":"是,就這個部分我想我們下去會來檢討。會做檢討,那後續的檢討再請您再來跟我們做說明,好嗎?好,是。謝謝許曉清委員,部長請回。接下來進行詢答的委員是黃仁委員。謝謝主席,有請顧部長。來,部長請。"},{"start":5678.827,"end":5701.769,"text":"關於國軍的自衛反擊的要件請教一下部長可下達自衛反擊指令的要件到底是什麼那邱國正前任的部長指出國軍對第一級的界定已因應證實只有航空跟海運的實體"},{"start":5703.717,"end":5721.785,"text":"無論是建議或氣球侵入到我的領空無需對我開槍開炮我方就可以加以擊落但國際法院對於自衛權的主張明確界定其中最重要的概念就是必須要存在"},{"start":5722.565,"end":5723.747,"text":"國防部應該要先設定想好部長"},{"start":5743.008,"end":5757.114,"text":"我想自衛權的設定在聯合國憲章相關規定應該是說我們遭受到武裝攻擊或者是威脅的時候應該就想有一個合比例的一個"},{"start":5758.014,"end":5781.983,"text":"自我防衛的一個固有權利好你是法律出身應該清楚這知道這1928年非戰公約定義除了自衛或內戰外的戰爭都是違法的如果我們在未達自衛條件即發出發動自衛反擊恐怕會演變成發動戰爭的一方所以再問部長"},{"start":5784.044,"end":5794.722,"text":"國基因的自衛反擊要見如何同時滿足對領土的絕對權利自衛和不思先機的時候那如何處理"},{"start":5795.632,"end":5817.545,"text":"我們現在對於自衛權的行使就是說共軍若攻擊我在航機艦能設施還有共軍攻擊我本外離島還有未經許可任何的飛航實體進入我12海裡的領空跟領海所以這個就是非常公約我們要釐清清楚的那另外是對於太平島"},{"start":5819.375,"end":5833.607,"text":"請教一下部長,你去過太平島嗎?沒有太平島是島還是礁?就我的理解好像對這個部分各方有不同的看法"},{"start":5835.297,"end":5837.118,"text":"很多現在國人現在對於太平島的概念基本的概念有很多人認為說島還是礁今天我們必須釐清一點"},{"start":5858.869,"end":5881.29,"text":"根據2016年的七月仲裁法院的仲裁結果不承認中共對南海九段線即我國所說的十一段線的主張更認為我國的太平島是礁而非是島部長你同意這個仲裁的說辭嗎"},{"start":5883.667,"end":5900.784,"text":"我想我們對於南海的政策一向是資源共享然後不挑釁不引起爭端委員我現在是講是交跟倒的一個仲裁的一個就我方來認定我們是認為是倒嘛好對"},{"start":5902.591,"end":5928.05,"text":"你這個說詞我贊同對於仲裁的結果當時外交部及總統府都表示對於不接受仲裁的裁判的判決本席相信任何中華民國的國人都認為太平島是島而非是礁再請教一下部長你是否認為太平島官兵應該在島上種植蔬菜或"},{"start":5929.572,"end":5934.351,"text":"養育畜牧牛羊豬等因為第一個"},{"start":5936.633,"end":5961.865,"text":"在太平島的近離高雄港有1600公里,運輔確實存在有風險,且運輔伙食都為罐頭或冷凍的食品,島上官兵種植蔬菜或養殖畜牧牛羊豬可以相當程度的補充為新鮮的食材。為什麼?"},{"start":5962.685,"end":5978.56,"text":"因為本席在5月18號親自有到太平島太平島一年的椰子樹有兩萬棵而且是當地的指揮官做一個報告"},{"start":5979.631,"end":6001.389,"text":"所以在島上種植的椰子樹包含植物是非常的豐盛所以如果養殖這一些畜牧來萬一因應颱風天的話在運補的過程裡面有困難他們就可以自主自給那第二個是他們有養應該是60隻的生誕雞"},{"start":6006.954,"end":6030.996,"text":"然後養竹自起可以自供自給是你要曉得切蛋之前是切蛋但是他們有養這個生雞蛋的雞所以既然那個地方而且也足夠提供水源足夠提供水源因為那個地方有淡水現在還有海水淡化可以提供的"},{"start":6031.656,"end":6054.05,"text":"所以我相信如果在養魚畜牧提供他們因應颱風天的時候因為高雄到太平島有1萬6千多公里火石上我們應該要考慮提高他們的火石為什麼因為離島的心情不是跟本島一樣"},{"start":6054.79,"end":6062.539,"text":"我曾經到金門馬祖當兵,所以我們的伙食都非常好。"},{"start":6063.311,"end":6090.941,"text":"那如果他們在離島上在各方面的生活非常的單調但是我們應該鼓勵他們的伙食上能夠更充實更好部長你新上任的你是不是為這個離島的不管他們是海巡署還有國軍官兵將近600多個我想常務政策有趣我們都有去太平島去了解地方"},{"start":6092.101,"end":6103.189,"text":"你認為有沒有必要我的了解是我們從114年度開始每月調增為5947元叫113年度增加了1168元那至於剛剛委員提到的我了解是應該是當地有蔬菜"},{"start":6114.916,"end":6116.738,"text":"你能不能給專者來說明一下"},{"start":6138.394,"end":6166.169,"text":"我臨時次長跟您報告一下剛剛部長提到行政院在114年的時候的確有照顧到我們所有的官兵那在太平島部分委員非常清楚我們是在海巡署我們是海巡署那邊搭火的所以我們等於說把這個所有的您剛剛提到的這個冷凍食品我們做一下改善島上所有的冷凍的器材跟這個設施都已經做過更新所以它冷凍食品是沒有問題"},{"start":6166.809,"end":6174.619,"text":"那您剛剛提到的所有的畜牧業剛剛那邊有種一些青菜水果可以提供他們比較新鮮的一些食物這都有在做就剛剛有提到就是說有關於環保的部分"},{"start":6182.449,"end":6204.898,"text":"因為在太平島那邊他的確有這方面的問題總之來講我們會跟海巡署一起來合作研究研究好不好讓官兵吃的更健康因為我是那邊的心得啦那跟大家分享非常謝謝委員關心好謝謝謝謝黃委員那邊的水很缺好謝謝部長請回那個用來種會死掉好謝謝我們請林楚英委員進行詢答"},{"start":6215.676,"end":6216.884,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請我們顧部長來 部長請"},{"start":6225.919,"end":6254.317,"text":"林委員好部長好很開心在這個國防外交委員會又遇到您我在上一屆的時候其實是您在擔任警管會主委的時候那麼我相信文人部長上任就是希望我們國家對於部隊的管理能夠更與時俱進我想其實之前我的詢答都非常緊扣就是有關於我們在國防安全的部分那麼在軍人守密捍衛國家這個部分不要背叛自己的國家但是我們知道其實這個"},{"start":6255.498,"end":6285.358,"text":"中共又或者是說我們的敵對勢力對於國軍的這個所謂滲透無孔不入那麼是不是現在連國軍的這個金融借貸都變成一個滲透的新方法我們在財政委員會很多委員都會提到的是有關於金融陷阱包括這種所謂的金融借貸的陷阱那這個是不是也變成了是一個新的手法我請主委看一下我相信您對金融的了解"},{"start":6286.338,"end":6311.372,"text":"華南貸款資金規劃還說是上市貸款公司您覺得這個您一眼可以看出他的問題在哪嗎華南貸款也是在有沒有在做我特別框起來了華南貸放資金規劃是對對資金規劃然後還說有上市貸款公司如果這一看是不是以你來講這"},{"start":6313.328,"end":6321.927,"text":"上市貸款公司就是很奇怪的一個但是這個可能我們軍中的弟兄不見得一眼能看得出來他只看到的是職業軍人優好貸"},{"start":6324.571,"end":6347.507,"text":"然後有軍政立刻貸信用小白債務整合信用瑕疵房貸增加包括安心貸這些都是你在網路上現在在社群平台就可以找到的但是本席找到的是2023年就是去年8月的時候一個案例就是彭防部的上校就是因為他付不出這種貸款"},{"start":6349.068,"end":6377.624,"text":"直接拿軍中的機密來做交換其實他兩年只換得了一百多萬一百零四萬這個金額不多但是他居然把軍中的極機密給洩漏出去所以這會不會是成為一個滲透的新方法而這樣的借款借貸方式他依舊存在主委上任之後有沒有覺得這是一個可以或者是應該要去面對待解決的問題"},{"start":6379.34,"end":6390.945,"text":"事實上我在國安會任職期間有關於利用金錢借貸或者是利誘的方式來作為生態手法我們就有看到相關的案例了"},{"start":6391.786,"end":6413.974,"text":"好,所以其實本席在跟您來拜會的時候我就提過了我希望能夠提升軍中的金融素養其實我知道其實我們有所謂的財務觀也有些金融的講座的規劃但是它常常流於就是照本宣科那很多時候我急著用錢的時候坦白講啦,軍中弟兄的勤務已經夠忙了"},{"start":6416.015,"end":6430.004,"text":"來聽這個課大概就是一個上有政策下有對策所以第一當然我希望這樣的理財的金融素養能夠更活化一點另外一個就是我們有沒有可能提供一個更好的管道我要舉出這個"},{"start":6430.925,"end":6457.899,"text":"希望部長今天回去可以了解一下就是軍中其實有宣導那在這個所謂開源節流儲蓄裡面有個叫做國軍同袍儲蓄會我不知道部長知不知道如果不知道的話回去我現在希望請能夠給部長一個正確的資訊這個軍中軍人儲蓄會其實在2000年的時候就被監察院糾舉了9年之後也就是2018年監察院也認為說"},{"start":6459.9,"end":6481.286,"text":"這個完全他的存在是沒有一個合法陣身的主委你應該都知道相關的這種所謂存放款業務都要符合我們銀行法但是在2000年的時候這個所謂存在在軍中的國軍同袍儲蓄會他完全不符合金融法規不符合銀行法結果怎麼樣呢國防部直接就我把這個裡面的法規我把它廢掉"},{"start":6484.267,"end":6508.561,"text":"他就變成是一個在軍中大家彼此私相授受嗎或者是說他就存在有一個財務官把弟兄的錢收了之後統合整理起來之後拿到台銀去存那我要來提醒部長的是這個2009年被糾正到現在其實國軍同袍除夕會他的法制化還沒有完成"},{"start":6509.386,"end":6525.623,"text":"那我去特別調了一下資料他是放在內政部的軍人及其家屬優惠條例這個優惠條例在111年也就是2022年有修正過但他依舊沒有給他一個法制化的法規"},{"start":6526.784,"end":6553.497,"text":"所以我相信一個曾經擔任過金管會主委的部長這是一個你可以來思考要不要讓他法制化另外我提到這一點的原因就在於其實我查了一下國軍同袍除序會他在2024年第一季他的金額有215億新台幣言下之意他法制化之後他可能就可以做一些運用本席去查了幾個國內的基金國內有幾件上市上櫃的基金的規模"},{"start":6556.078,"end":6577.357,"text":"其實都不高他是215億他可以高於不少我們現有的投信公司的基金規模如果一旦法治化之後他可以做一些運用跟調度包括做於緊急的借款因為現在國軍的儲蓄會他同袍儲蓄會他只能存放款他不能放款他只能存款"},{"start":6578.718,"end":6589.11,"text":"他連放款的業務都沒有因為他沒有一個法規可以讓他合法正身來做這件事情本席今天提出這個事情只是希望主委能夠去思考他有215億的規模在裡面"},{"start":6593.575,"end":6622.176,"text":"如果法制化了剛剛我們前面講到的這些所謂的金融詐騙借貸詐騙的陷阱我們可以避免國軍內部我們都知道有國防管理學院應該裡面有不少金融相關的管理人才也有這樣的素養可以來做協助所以我把這個舉出來希望主委可以把它當成是你任內可以思考的一個方向今天如果軍中弟兄真的覺得一定要用"},{"start":6623.417,"end":6648.579,"text":"軍人證才能在所謂的這種借貸非銀行的借貸能夠借得快借得好那要不要軍中自己來合法化又或者是說軍中覺得要去制定這一部法令可能曠日廢時那麼至少我們現在看到的國軍同袍除序會他完全沒有法制沒有法規的底下"},{"start":6649.605,"end":6674.79,"text":"我們就乾脆把它廢掉那有兩條路可走主委你怎麼看跟委員報告就我現在的理解就是說過去在組織法裡面已經加入了這個組織的組織法裡面那作用法的部分呢就是好像之前卡在要先要想要訂一個軍人福利條例後來沒有訂那現在最後的是在113年4月29號他們內政部"},{"start":6677.911,"end":6695.669,"text":"就這一個您剛提到軍人及其家屬要在條例的部分要還請本部來重新檢視我現在我下去以後我會盡快的來理解有關這一個部分的條文的內容卡在什麼地方那我會盡快的把它在作用法的部分把它法治化這樣子"},{"start":6696.049,"end":6696.489,"text":"我會盡快的來了解那個條文的內容好 謝謝林楚英委員"},{"start":6731.312,"end":6745.387,"text":"接下來請往定宇召委好謝謝主席麻煩顧部長顧部長"},{"start":6756.134,"end":6775.869,"text":"部長早,作為一個國防部長在這個時候其實最重要是明年度的國防預算大概6、7、8月你們要進行相關的編審那9月份就會送進我們立法院那你又是近年來首位的文人部長所以本期今天第一個比較大的題目是要請教"},{"start":6777.045,"end":6798.868,"text":"目前在你心中的計畫明年度我們的國防預算是否會增加或者顯著增加因為之前蔡英文總統的任內你是國安會秘書長在前4年當時蔡總統有承諾每一年以佔國防預算至少2%的幅度往上成長所以本席這邊"},{"start":6800.45,"end":6813.011,"text":"統計一個表單純看這個預算數國防預算近10年來特別從2018年預算數是逐年顯著增加"},{"start":6814.209,"end":6823.155,"text":"如果你拿2015年的預算數那個是根據2014年的GDP到2024年的預算數那是根據2023年的GDP在預算數我講的是金額大概成長了38.9%你把4,345億去除3,127億不含特別預算"},{"start":6843.888,"end":6852.954,"text":"那以這一個我們國內生產毛額來看就是我們的總體經濟來看從2015年反映出的20142024年反映出的2023我們的GDP成長是46%"},{"start":6860.859,"end":6882.594,"text":"所以用這樣來對照我們的金額是有成長但是還沒有完全跟我們的GDP成長去完全去吻合當然這有很多因素社會福利各項的支出那如果單純看佔GDP比率這個大概是各盟友主要在看的說歐洲的國防預算有沒有達到2%台灣的國防預算有沒有到2.53大概是看這一塊這一塊"},{"start":6888.538,"end":6903.87,"text":"如果單純看我們的預算數平常心講雖然我們金額成長了百分之三十多三成以上但我們的GDP佔比呢看起來其實是沒有明顯的成長但是這漏掉一個數據所以本席特別把"},{"start":6905.451,"end":6930.322,"text":"馬政府因為沒有特別預算那在蔡英文政府因為國防採購跨年度先進戰機或者是提高防衛力量的需求我們分別在2020年跟2022年有兩次的特別預算涵蓋年度我都寫在後面的特別預算你把那個金額平均加進去我先提醒平均未必正確因為他有說前面比較少後面比較多"},{"start":6930.982,"end":6958.567,"text":"你把平均加進去的話也確實蔡英文政府的國防預算呢相較於以往是有明顯的增加但是大概這兩年到2.09、2.08左右我把這個基礎數字跟部長做了分析之後我的問題是請問部長你接下來6、7、8、9月大概就要準備編這個預算了會不會增加相較以往金額跟佔比會不會增加"},{"start":6959.298,"end":6974.933,"text":"跟委員報告,就我的理解明後年的軍頭好像是在支付的高峰期,對,那我們的作業維持會也不斷的增加,所以我當然"},{"start":6976.674,"end":7003.033,"text":"我們會務實的來檢討這個依照這個防衛作案需求來務實檢討不過我當然希望我們的額度這個配付的額度能夠持續穩定的成長那這個部分還需要跟主計長要好好的溝通你如果說說我陪你們去為主計長我也是樂見但我現在提的事情說他有兩個數據顯示出其實盟友常常問我們說我們"},{"start":7004.534,"end":7023.746,"text":"保護自己國家的決心大概不管是預期還有預算大概常問的是這兩件事情那在預算的話有兩個數字一個是金額的總數那這牽涉到我們總體經濟概況如果經濟萎縮金額的總數一定會往下掉另外一個就是佔比"},{"start":7025.066,"end":7043.999,"text":"暫比因為我們有特別預算暫比跟我們的年度國防預算合併計算的話我們現在大概已經超過歐盟的標準我們這2%以上了但是有人會不把特別預算納進去算但是還是合併計算比較妥當所以我還是期待顧立雄部長這一邊"},{"start":7045.6,"end":7067.276,"text":"在明年我們的國防預算的展現上因為美國他用總統的PDA他用他們的FMF當然也回過頭他們在審議的時候也說那臺灣自己的決心在哪裡部長這邊你心裡的盤算你當然希望越多越好了但世間沒有這麼好的事情我是說你明年的國防預算按照這個數據上來看會不會持續往上走"},{"start":7071.412,"end":7098.804,"text":"就我的理解應該會持續往上走只是增加的幅度到底有多大持續往上走就是一個趨勢嘛對對但是我過去我過去在國安會前也常常說到對啦委員講的沒有錯就是說我們展現自我防衛的決心有時候不是單靠國防預算的量化但是國防預算的量化的這個確實是他們"},{"start":7100.36,"end":7119.101,"text":"那是個外顯現象防衛自己的決心跟能耐未必完全要看這個數字但這個數字常常是檢視的窗口所以我是認為我們國防的進一步改革包括實戰法訓練加防部隊戰力等等這些部分搭配我們國防"},{"start":7120.623,"end":7120.723,"text":"第2個題目"},{"start":7134.653,"end":7160.28,"text":"最近不管是美國的外委會主席來或之前的蓋拉格來我大概跟他們談的都這三件事情在背景是2023年美國的NDAA也就是他們的財政年度國防授權法案特別把一個美國的叫做這個TERA叫做"},{"start":7164.421,"end":7179.235,"text":"臺灣強韌法,把他的精神納進去,那這個臺灣Enhance Resilience Act這個叫TERRA,他把他納進去之後呢那這邊就有三個面向,可能我要詢問來自於國安會的國防部長"},{"start":7179.735,"end":7207.611,"text":"第一個根據2023年TERRA的5507條裡面有載明外國軍售計畫下要加速對台軍售那這個我有看到寫在您今天的報告書的第10頁很好那有沒有具體的做法就是說他加速既有已經答應軍售給我們加趕快提早交付給我們以及未來軍售案的能夠提高速度這是第一件事情"},{"start":7208.251,"end":7232.49,"text":"第2個在2023年的NDA裡面的TERRA相關的條款對照起來5510條裡面這點就跟最近大家談的很重要美國這個條例是要求把美國的智慧財產權移轉到台灣等於尋找合作廠商來協助台灣在台生產潛在的合作商員來合作"},{"start":7233.451,"end":7251.771,"text":"這個是根據這個TERRA510條那我們一直在爭取跟美國簽署這個RDPRDP就是互惠國防採購協定供應安全安排SOSA這兩個合併起來講就是讓美國跟台灣"},{"start":7252.572,"end":7266.862,"text":"合作在台灣生產先進的裝備那我綜合起來請你一併回答也就是說這個好處是第一個台灣能夠國防自主那也能夠因應未來的可能性的封鎖"},{"start":7268.462,"end":7287.751,"text":"提升臺灣國防工業及技術能力臺灣可以藉由不管是RDP或者SOSA能夠進入美方跟他盟友的供應鏈這對臺灣的工業界來講是一個很大的利多所以以上這一個部分是不是請部長綜合回答"},{"start":7288.843,"end":7310.496,"text":"是那個第一個快速對台軍售就我的理解就是已經成立一個叫做Tiger TeamTiger Team 2.0那一段時間了對那就這個部分他結合應該是國會國防部跟國務院那這個Tiger Team的加速對台軍售那具體的哪一些部分他把我們的交運的這個"},{"start":7311.357,"end":7311.597,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7330.149,"end":7354.425,"text":"那另外這個共同的就是所謂的co-production在這個部份我想這個部份我們一直積極的在爭取因為我們是一個海島的國家那暫時的時候我們必須要維持一定的這個產業的國防工業的概念這兩年有沒有辦法簽 有沒有可能我"},{"start":7357.031,"end":7371.854,"text":"我們在近期爭取,近期可能會有一些結果,再跟委員報告,我想可能在私下再跟委員報告。對,難得看到你結巴,我們不宜公開講了,你就不要公開講。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。我們接下來進行詢答是林德福委員,時間4分鐘。"},{"start":7390.513,"end":7395.075,"text":"因為AIT官網美國歷史的簡介冷戰、寒戰跟越戰"},{"start":7415.41,"end":7434.771,"text":"提到戰爭犧牲數十萬的生命也在美國國內造成很大激烈的對立美國人對此也在美國國內除了對立以外從此也謹防再次深陷海外的泥鬧"},{"start":7436.152,"end":7453.26,"text":"那人民都希望安居樂業當然本席也不希望台灣成為下一個烏克蘭變成大國角力下的犧牲品本席希望國防部備戰而不起戰用實力來確保和平不輕易的開啟戰端你的看法勒"},{"start":7454.375,"end":7474.067,"text":"所以委員的看法我想以我們加強我們自我防衛能力來協同區域的盟邦來進行一個協同性的嚇阻來避免戰事的發生我想這個看法跟委員剛剛講的以實力來嚇阻這個是一致的"},{"start":7476.818,"end":7481.78,"text":"顧部長賴總統過去在金門當過兵他也去視察過金門大橋若能在823砲戰66週年以總統的升溫再次前往金門來視察瞭解金門"},{"start":7493.064,"end":7510.642,"text":"的這個相關的建設進度請聽金門在地這些鄉親的心聲甚至於發表帶有善意的兩岸談話或許能加速兩岸重啟交流以上建議我也希望顧部長在適當的場合來轉達給賴總統讓他似乎能夠做一個參佐你的幹話呢"},{"start":7518.62,"end":7532.536,"text":"總統會進行外離島視察我想這個應該是會的那時辰的安排可能會要由總統的辦公室來進行那國防部配合這個總統的視察行程"},{"start":7533.377,"end":7555.443,"text":"至於總統講話要如何我想總統自有他的這個定見我想這個我不是以在這裡幫助自有定見當然有時候你們要適度善意的給他建言因為這一次整個就是交接典禮的時候你提到中華民國、中華人民共和國不不立屬這個根本就是遮本話本來這些話就可以不必講"},{"start":7556.863,"end":7572.453,"text":"現階段本來就是如此但是你為什麼要講出來這個刻意的嘛然後你搞成兵兇戰危對不對老百姓要的是安居樂業阿那個顧部長媒體報導我想國防部的立場就是強化我們的自我防衛能力來達到這個嚇阻共軍不樂意報貓"},{"start":7578.416,"end":7579.197,"text":"國防部長顧立雄"},{"start":7600.599,"end":7626.328,"text":"是不是因為部隊業務繁重還是部隊內有一些霸凌甚至於管教不當等等還是感情因素財務因素那個部長你有什麼看法我的了解好像還是以這個經濟的因素家庭的因素還有感情因素也有等等這些都有但沒有在特定的哪一個單位好像是分屬不同的單位"},{"start":7627.048,"end":7644.446,"text":"副部長,官兵不分官階都是國家栽培本身是希望顧部長好好的深入了解維護整個國軍官兵的權利不要讓這些基層過勞甚至於顧部長要好好的秉公處理該補的人還是要補人,你來看我勒"},{"start":7645.129,"end":7655.656,"text":"是,我想這個我們的新府的作為有在加強的地方剛剛有其他委員也有在指教那另外就是說相關的這些戰訓本務之外的這些減少一些"},{"start":7660.179,"end":7666.845,"text":"顧部長最後一個提議顧部長您過去曾擔任國安會的秘書長蔡總統時期也打算修改全民防衛動員的準備法引發社會的一些議論那被社會大眾批評為為何要動員高中生後來暫緩修法"},{"start":7689.423,"end":7709.158,"text":"那教育部也停止造冊按照權動法的規定要對學校青年動員來扶勤進行規劃那請問顧部長如果進入動員實施階段全國高中生自我可以留在家裡避難不出門可以嗎"},{"start":7710.018,"end":7730.38,"text":"我想這個部分相關的這些權動法下底下的這相關各部會的一些相關的作為都需要有值得檢討的地方我相信不會有什麼高中生參軍的這樣子的一個作為存在"},{"start":7731.161,"end":7740.381,"text":"顧部長,全國高中生是否會被國防部和交易部動員到指定的地方來執行保鄉保土甚至於保校的任務,會不會?"},{"start":7742.646,"end":7766.053,"text":"就我的理解應該是沒有這樣子報告委員有關於高中生的部分是教育部他們會依據這個民防法的規定納入這個民防團隊裡面的一個青年扶勤那基本上他們是以自願的方式去扶勤然後再者就是對再者就是他也只會負責一些簡單的服務不會從事任何軍事情務"},{"start":7766.733,"end":7767.714,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長"},{"start":7793.368,"end":7799.152,"text":"關委員好部長好部長我們剛剛也聽到委員其實都在關切而且最近我們國內也非常熱鬧所有的軍工產業其實都非常熱絡所以就我們剛剛有提到我們的國防預算要增加的部分其實我們更期待的是我們過去我們所支付的款項除了加速軍購以外"},{"start":7819.164,"end":7841.053,"text":"應該要加速把我們已經付款的部分而且我們急需的這些戰備的武器裝備其實要先到位這個部分可能在這裡也要先提醒一下另外就是部長您也是國防二法執行以後第三位文人部長那在依國防二法裡面它規範明定"},{"start":7843.995,"end":7852.982,"text":"總統率全國陸海空軍指揮軍隊其實主要在國防法第2章第8條裡面總統率全國陸海空軍為三軍統率行使統率權指揮軍隊直接則呈國防部部長由部長命令參謀總長"},{"start":7863.53,"end":7872.892,"text":"指揮執行之那在第13條也提到國防部設參謀本部為部長之軍令幕僚及三軍聯合作戰指揮機構至參謀總長一人陳部長之命令負責軍令事項指揮軍隊換言之軍政跟軍令在我們目前的國防二法裡面還是由國防部長要全權負責因為部長您剛上任"},{"start":7891.775,"end":7908.358,"text":"雖然過去也是在國安會對整個國防可能也都有所接觸不過以現在我們現在看起來因為在國防部今天的報告也有提到共軍常態越過海峽中線以外目前已經抵近我們台灣24海里的部分以現在的機載飛彈能力24海里其實早就可以發起攻擊"},{"start":7920.14,"end":7926.482,"text":"所以部長在0523解放軍在維台軍演的時候只花了20分鐘聽取各單位的簡報就離開恆山指揮所然後請參謀總長直接主持長達5到6小時的戰備會議部長沒有做正指揮當然這是您非常信任參謀總長這個也是一個部分不過就我們的國防法裡面規範的其實國防部長還是"},{"start":7947.95,"end":7961.366,"text":"做最後統整指揮的一個重要的靈魂人物部長在那裡做政指揮有兩個非常重要的一個指標性的一個方向第一就是穩定軍心"},{"start":7962.543,"end":7970.048,"text":"因為過去每次在一些演習或者像這樣碰到一些緊急狀況的時候部長在裡面其實他是可以讓我們所有的三軍他的軍心是可以比較安定隨時都可以掌握狀況另外第二個當然就是掌握即時的狀況因為雖然您把他交付給參謀總長可是"},{"start":7986.859,"end":7987.379,"text":"對於其他的．"},{"start":8014.409,"end":8032.282,"text":"可能還是可以做第二階段的考量這是在這裡要特別提出來的那因為部長您是剛開始接任是不是在這裡我們也要為一些軍事官兵來請命就是在我們可以看得到部長剛剛我詢問的部分就這個部分你有什麼樣的說明或看法嗎"},{"start":8042.959,"end":8066.241,"text":"我想跟委員報告我想5月23號那一天早上在7點半就開暫敵警匯報那在這個中間就已經接獲這個共軍要實施這一個聯合力艦的演習所以在當下就已經做了一些指示就是說我們馬上開設應變中心在國防部那因為事實上如果"},{"start":8067.622,"end":8095.605,"text":"在這個演習的這個期間,國防部的應變中心的相關的這個作業的這個還有他的這個配備呢,其實跟這個橫山指揮所裡面是差不多,不好意思,因為時間的關係,所以我的意思就是說,我事實上做了相關的這個才事,那相關我剛剛也提到了,就這個作戰成績,或者是戰術成績的這個部分呢,"},{"start":8095.865,"end":8096.265,"text":"我們沒有第一集,我們就只有智慧權的行使"},{"start":8121.519,"end":8124.701,"text":"自衛權你要什麼時候行使自衛權這個就是一個關鍵的節點如果部長您在他可能參謀總長可能在發生有某些狀況的時候他就不需要再詢問因為你只要轉個頭下個指令因為你已經掌握全局了所以就這個部分我們今天是特別提出來的那另外部長"},{"start":8142.429,"end":8143.53,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告業務概況"},{"start":8166.545,"end":8177.635,"text":"已經有很長的一段時間大概都有做這樣的反應就是我們的副食費我們的一些伙食其實是不夠理想那就這個部分因為我們看到這個表格一樣是像替代義男他在民國107年等於是這個幾年了至少"},{"start":8189.226,"end":8199.134,"text":"七八年好久了七年前他們就已經做了調整他們光是每個月的伙食金額已經在本島地區就已經有3200塊可是我們的國軍官兵他的一些伙食副食費的標準本島才2969塊等於說100塊都不到"},{"start":8210.822,"end":8214.907,"text":"那現在包括像在大直實踐大學一個便當都要120塊那我們一天才99塊三餐喔所以就這個部分很多的藝男其實大概都有做這樣的一個建議希望可以調高這樣的一個金額預算"},{"start":8229.324,"end":8229.424,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":8260.825,"end":8270.314,"text":"行政院114年都已經有照顧所有的官兵能夠調高至於你講的那個外島委員提到外島跟外島離島這部分因為金門馬祖跟東沙這幾個地方東引這幾個地方都沒有復工站"},{"start":8275.638,"end":8275.798,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8293.826,"end":8314.254,"text":"除了伙食費外還有一個夜點費夜點費從民國86年到目前為止那個已經經過多少時間夜點費到現在還只有60塊就是宵夜的部分如果大家需要熬夜或者需要很長的時間做這樣子的一個任務的時候我們只有60塊這個部分是不是部長也可以一併的去做調整"},{"start":8316.185,"end":8324.129,"text":"業點會的部分我的瞭解是已經調整了,調整的輔助還蠻大的,所以我們在規劃中還向行政院來溝通,不是我們已經內部已經有一個調整作業的那個,然後我們會參與物價波動型向行政院溝通來整理"},{"start":8333.114,"end":8351.881,"text":"因為我們到目前得到的看到的資訊都是86年前就是現在目前所有詢問所有的官士兵他們大概的夜點費大概就是60塊我們還沒有看到你有新的做法在這個部分如果有我們當然也是希望可以盡快實施那另外還有一個時間不好意思因為時間比較緊迫我們現在在叫招的部分有叫招到因為過去"},{"start":8359.424,"end":8365.069,"text":"男性的那個護理師其實是比較少的可是現在越來越多現在我們全國的醫院就是醫病比其實是護病比其實是高達1比6或1比15所以當我們叫召這樣的人員進來的時候等於醫院甚至有一個醫院也會是同時叫召到兩個"},{"start":8382.745,"end":8386.709,"text":"所以如果你少掉一個護士或者兩個護士的時候等於你必須要關床15人到30人這對我們現在對於我們的整個醫療院所缺護理人員這樣子的一個狀況是雪上加霜這個部分是不是我們可以做一個事實的調整讓他們可以在醫院"},{"start":8405.227,"end":8423.072,"text":"不影響我們所有就醫的這樣子的一個情況之下我們去做一些調整不是說不要爭而是在現階段我們缺護理人員這麼嚴重的情況之下不一定要先爭他們你可以先爭像那些衛教人員好像這個部分是不是可以做到"},{"start":8424.767,"end":8426.508,"text":"委員好有關於委員這部分因為我們有訂這個緩竹緊招的相關規定那也有相關的作業規定那細部的部分因為目前是沒有把這相關人員列入那委員的建議我們會回去"},{"start":8439.813,"end":8440.033,"text":"請提供資料"},{"start":8465.407,"end":8487.086,"text":"剛才那個夜點費跟伙食相關的有調整的資料麻煩報本委員會就是確定的案子確定的版本第一個詢問一下我們剛才有財事休息但因為今天國防部長有軍談我還是希望讓每個委員都能問到顧部長本人我先問一下那個部長需不需要休息"},{"start":8487.907,"end":8489.548,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進,有請顧部長"},{"start":8511.846,"end":8537.66,"text":"市長老委員好市長部長你好你辛苦啦沒有休息齁這個我也是很佩服啊這個天眾英明啊你要什麼職位都可以做了齁從黨長會做到金管會做到國安會現在國防部啊下一次不知道做什麼不知道啦齁剩下就是當院長還怎麼用還是要升總統還是怎麼樣你什麼都不做勒為什麼最後是你當國防部長"},{"start":8541.377,"end":8568.297,"text":"我當然知道你很難回答啦齁你你你可能覺得自己看一看自己有什麼特徵跟我問為什麼蔡英文這麼傻你啊賴清德也傻你還是說蔡英文是託付給賴清德說這個人一定要用是怎麼樣報告委員我想我我只能說我戰戰基金竊勝以對竊下這份工作這樣子有心情可以做好"},{"start":8569.912,"end":8594.125,"text":"我努力,我盡我最大努力要接了就要做好喔,國防部長謝謝全台灣人民的生命財產交到你手上喔來我們來看看喔這個最近美國在選總統的兩個人一個拜登一個川普"},{"start":8595.59,"end":8622.876,"text":"講的話拜登說解讀的意思外面很多解讀他的原文不是這樣子解讀是說如果台灣被中國大陸入侵了拜登會防衛台灣有人把解讀說出兵我是打一個問號川普說轟炸北京這個請問你你是國防部長"},{"start":8625.865,"end":8651.562,"text":"你是不是得到這樣的訊息說如果大陸打台灣美國會去打大陸是這樣子嗎跟委員報告我覺得我簡單的回應三點第一點這個是只是顯示我想台海和平的穩定是全球安全與繁榮不可或缺的一部分也就是說它涉及到整個台灣或者台海地區和平穩定的重要性你精簡的回答我"},{"start":8652.462,"end":8654.424,"text":"川普說要打大陸,封炸大陸有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":8677.271,"end":8695.568,"text":"我想這個我已經說過了我並不清楚川普整個演講的全文這樣的去脈絡化的言語我沒有辦法加以評論這樣子你不覺得他們兩個都在飆車嗎因為今年的年底美國的總統要選舉了競爭非常激烈打台灣牌"},{"start":8697.073,"end":8700.237,"text":"現在我就是請問你美國真的要幫助台灣不管真的出兵假的出兵其實我都提出很多問題為什麼"},{"start":8716.442,"end":8727.941,"text":"6月開始29屆的環太平洋軍事演習沒有邀我們啊連觀察員都沒有6月26號到8月2號舉行的我們都沒參加"},{"start":8729.659,"end":8748.824,"text":"我們中間真的要幫台灣來打仗的話怎麼打呢?所以這些東西到底的選舉語言我現在就問你說這個前提川普也好拜登也好那個前提是台灣已經變戰場了台灣已經被打得稀巴爛了這是我們所關心的"},{"start":8750.089,"end":8766.528,"text":"我想我還是強調這個是一個所謂的一個為了維護這個印太地區的和平穩定所實施的一種以實力來跟決心來避免戰爭的發生的"},{"start":8769.11,"end":8789.666,"text":"我想為最高的一個美國的最大的利益講得很謹慎你的意思白話文可不可以這樣解讀就是說要不要清兵你不知道模糊的然後呢一切就希望台灣能夠台海安定就這樣這是符合我想符合全世界的利益那我講完好不好那把這一句要講完"},{"start":8791.365,"end":8807.641,"text":"是你是認為你現在跟上一任的部長完全做不一樣喔邱部長是認為兩岸很緊張所以呢這個相關的這個政府主管不可以通俗休假你現在全部放了是你認為你現在看得太很太平"},{"start":8808.662,"end":8810.603,"text":"最後一個我要講一個這兩天27家將近30家軍火商拜會賴清德你有沒有在旁邊作賠"},{"start":8836.34,"end":8839.903,"text":"我不知道他有拜會,沒有拜會賴總統吧?沒有這樣的狀況存在私下跟賴委員報告一下好不好?"},{"start":8851.334,"end":8853.715,"text":"我沒有這樣的訊息我要講一下喔這個如果真的這樣一個軍火商跑到總統府去了"},{"start":8880.779,"end":8895.949,"text":"指向太難看了,我們交的錢軍火也不交報告賴委我本身沒有接獲任何這方面的訊息謝謝賴世保委員,部長請回我們接下來進行詢問的委員是林黛華委員時間4分鐘有請部長來,部長請"},{"start":8907.452,"end":8931.494,"text":"好本席針對軍隊文化跟心理輔導預防機制的矛盾跟失衡本席剛才呢這個聽了您的質詢之後我覺得難怪我們的這個心腹工作會崩潰第一個沒有釐清到底我的心腹工作是一個醫療行為還是一般的軍事業務的運作這是第一個"},{"start":8932.455,"end":8948.827,"text":"第二,你一直尋求外援的諮商,他們確實是專業,但是他們是不懂軍中文化的,軍中文化是封閉的,高壓的,我們軍人是24小時365天工作的,在軍中之外的。"},{"start":8949.728,"end":8966.375,"text":"是依照牢機法所以這一般的心理治療師他可以知道這樣的軍中文化嗎所以你一直尋求外援當然沒有辦法來了解這個我們軍中的弟兄心理智商應該怎麼符合我們的生態去做質詢所以縱觀來講"},{"start":8969.136,"end":8991.616,"text":"部長跟我們現在的政戰局長你們叫做外行好所以呢我針對這幾個議題三個第一個心腹功能力不足的二進循環第三你們號稱的心理輔導三級房主本期認為這個房主呈現了三缺缺少心理專業人員缺少深談時間缺少空心腹空間的基層困境第三"},{"start":8992.236,"end":9009.168,"text":"新府工作室醫療行為還是軍隊管理的組織治理這一點是重點部長你也必須很清楚的在這個質詢台當中去明確的表達這樣的主張或者你們拉拉扎扎的剛才這個局長這個爬出了我們維安徵後12個樣態"},{"start":9012.43,"end":9029.373,"text":"在錯誤的心理輔導的一個你們的認定上他是一般軍務那你就是這個叫什麼你們叫做人道關懷心理輔導叫做人道關懷跟我在醫療臨床的心理諮商"},{"start":9030.354,"end":9057.787,"text":"這是兩碼子的事難怪我的國軍軍袍會整個的心裡崩潰當我看到那個數據從今年1月到5月我們累積了快18、19個案例你第19個案例是我拒文再來在你上任之後兩個案例那是多麼讓人家震撼啊跟慚愧的畫面啊竟然你上來之後我一個弟兄就活生生的從國防部部本部給我跳下來"},{"start":9060.05,"end":9077.577,"text":"這個如果在我地方首長阿或哪一個我們這個區域選出的他不趕快不會被民意壓垮才快竟然我們可以毫無動靜的我們的局長還拉拉扎扎的講了這12項的爬書以為你在做研究工作阿"},{"start":9078.72,"end":9099.077,"text":"他部長您是這個國安也好律師也好對各諮商啊真的是完全是真的是外行所以倒的我的同袍他在整個軍備的前線在應戰的時候結果我的心裡他是人耶我們同袍是人耶他的壓力無所無所依戒"},{"start":9099.978,"end":9123.435,"text":"好,在這最後我有具體的要求什麼叫做我們人力不足的二線循環連監察院的報告都說我國軍的心腹機制是流於形勢喔服從跟紀律是軍人的目標軍中生活的封閉跟高壓因為金石案、金金案、金粹案以及加上我今天的少者而造成軍中人力的短缺工作量過於繁重而衍生不合理的情況國軍的編制從45萬精檢到15萬8千"},{"start":9127.918,"end":9156.806,"text":"再加上我臺海局勢的急轉直下國防壓力的巨深能力比以前少但我任務是比以前多的現在你們各位長官部長你們現在所有的都是舊思維希望我們凡事都能兼顧所以不願正式跟原理合理的這個任務分配心腹工作長期未落實這就剛才本行覺得非常竟然你們可以這麼的淡定的處理從1月到5會有17位智商"},{"start":9157.526,"end":9171.558,"text":"以稅喔!然後呢有兩起是在你任內你上任之後就兩起喔!還有我據聞沒有公布的在這一個禮拜一又一名同儕養藥而自殺未遂所以你們的零智商從2016年起現在累積136人"},{"start":9174.901,"end":9201.978,"text":"好我們看這個表本辦公室爬書出來你最後的那17、18從1月到5月這張表然後呢再來我們的所謂新府三級房主是三缺這當中的缺少專業人員你們現在長期的推動叫做心理輔導三級房主你們什麼長期房主呢初級的發掘預防啊我們這叫做二級專業輔導啊如果真不行就送醫院了"},{"start":9202.478,"end":9222.581,"text":"那幾乎就是就幾乎是精神精神病的狀態了怎麼會是有這個這個這到第三級就已經是無不可逆的醫療醫療的處置了好我軍中的第一線負責的輔導長本身就缺乏專業的心腹症狀你知道我們輔導長平均多少多少歲"},{"start":9223.522,"end":9225.285,"text":"24到28歲耶幾乎一個碩士剛畢業耶他要面對比自己年長的這軍事官你覺得他合適來做心理輔導嗎"},{"start":9235.646,"end":9254.606,"text":"再來,你國軍警檢之後,面對岸的兵官,好,OK,缺乏,這個,包括你們的聲談喔,你們現在聲談的時間都沒有,因為軍務操務得很繁重,連要聲談都沒有時間,好,基層的心理空間,你們不是,心理空間不是輔導長,是"},{"start":9256.267,"end":9270.979,"text":"兼用呢就是這個慘白的牆壁門窗上鎖且毫無溫暖所以呢現在你們的三級防築呢叫做人人是自殺防制守門人的一個口號再來你是要以部隊為重還是以人為重當領導與輔導身份發生衝突的時候該如何是好"},{"start":9275.282,"end":9297.603,"text":"本席點出你的輔導長跟新輔官的職長衝突第一個輔導長的職長是政長第二個軍中的官階封閉性及服從的特有性第三新輔工作是醫療行為還是軍中管理的組織治理行為最後在這邊你知道在全部的軍種我們158000"},{"start":9302.773,"end":9317.065,"text":"全軍種15萬人但是你只有紙張的心理證照69張也就是一位心腹員你要負責2289個心腹工作你只有69張合格的好那我再爬書你們現在叫做你們這個人道關懷"},{"start":9320.207,"end":9332.194,"text":"軍中當中的心腹工具跟我民間醫療臨床的心理諮商工具我就把它爬梳出來你現在軍方叫做大兵手記然後再來叫做檢視、量表、測、測、測、測、測是用手機賴群處理喔最後叫互談紀錄表好那民間呢跟醫療的臨床是什麼面對面的諮商、多元、多元型態的藝術治療及電腦的檢測評估"},{"start":9347.862,"end":9364.783,"text":"的這個系統最後把你所得的這個樣態個案追蹤網路化的大數據的樣態分析最後這張我的軍職人員跟專業心腹人員的16萬的士官兵對照69張的專業我的預算"},{"start":9367.606,"end":9374.469,"text":"你是1700億的一個人事費對比240萬的這個心理輔訓訓練費這張表240萬是你們提供的最後本期的具體建議我最後講因為這個其實沒有人這樣講過他們第一個我具體建議單任輔導長心理輔導一定要具備心理諮商師或社工師的證照"},{"start":9390.996,"end":9411.042,"text":"我個人主張從軍醫系統你凡是要有你軍醫當中有心理諮商系有社工系你要畢業一定要拿到證照他們才能夠執業你現在畢業不用拿到證照你一直尋求外援只有你在軍醫系統第二個接近美國軍醫的心理系統與隨軍的神職人員所以呢在這邊本國是多元宗教文化所以呢研議在軍營當中設置小型的檢疫參拜"},{"start":9418.704,"end":9423.007,"text":"是一個可以沉澱的這個場域比照我們各大醫院跟機場最後現其改善新衛中心的內部佈置第4點在你的陣戰組織下把心理輔導心理之三單獨一個處提出來以上建言謝謝林委員那部長您介不接受請提供書面給國防部主席是不是讓他表達他完全否定"},{"start":9445.439,"end":9447.804,"text":"還是說你接受這樣的建議還是要繼續的英雄苟且部長再要回答就好然後繼續讓我們的同胞再繼續往下掉"},{"start":9455.373,"end":9474.426,"text":"跟剛剛委員報告剛剛委員提出的三缺我想我有相當程度的認同那我們會按照委員的指示我們來積極那你認為他是一個醫療行為還是一個還是一個是一個醫療行為還是軍務的操作那個林委員你比較少來我們這邊我們時間真的要控管抱歉一下因為他今天有軍談他待會要離開其他委員還要問部長你再繼續你再繼續如果你不重視我們的醫療就會一直跳你還憑什麼你有什麼資格做我三軍統帥之下的海陸空三軍的領導人"},{"start":9484.833,"end":9485.534,"text":"謝謝主席,我請部長來部長請"},{"start":9509.109,"end":9532.675,"text":"首先謝謝主席跟部長就是取消休息時間讓我們可以多問一點我想先請教部長您的前任邱部長曾經說臺海之間嚴峻的情勢讓他睡不著覺那你剛才在回答馬文君委員的時候也講說臺海之間的情勢依然嚴峻所以我想請問一下"},{"start":9534.275,"end":9543.23,"text":"部長你從接任國防部長之後你有失眠過嗎?你有像邱部長一樣也會因為嚴峻的情勢睡不著覺嗎?"},{"start":9545.108,"end":9547.15,"text":"另外請教你上任第4天在中共就做環島軍演"},{"start":9571.463,"end":9597.609,"text":"那麼而且呢他的軍演代號是聯合力艦2024A那麼在之前我也問了國安局局長認不認為這樣的一個環島軍演會常態化因為他代號是A所以被認為說未來還可能有B還可能有C所以以部長現在你的評估這個環島軍演還有今年會不會再上演這樣的環島軍演"},{"start":9599.461,"end":9617.403,"text":"跟委員報告,我們持續的密切關注中共的動態,我們也都能夠掌握相關的動態。那我們沒辦法排除,但我們會密注這個相關的這個情況。好,所以不排除。那請問一下,在23號的環島軍演,你們是什麼時候得到就是有軍演的訊息?"},{"start":9619.262,"end":9645.538,"text":"科文委員報告我想這個辦法沒有辦法說明為什麼沒有辦法說明我只能夠說我們會有一些徵喉然後會有一些預判那相關的這個預判在他們召開記者會之前我們掌握到訊息嗎在他們發布之前我們有一些徵喉就已經在只有徵喉但是沒有訊息我們根據相關的徵喉就會做一些預判"},{"start":9646.257,"end":9671.678,"text":"好但是我覺得從剛才聽到部長其實都有四兩步欠金但是另外一個剛才馬文俊委員也特別問到就是在環島軍演的時候我們國防部開記者會說第一級也還是由我們國防部長來下令那剛才講說沒有第一級是自衛權好那我想請問部長"},{"start":9673.78,"end":9680.833,"text":"你針對如果你會下令展開自衛權也好或者第一級也好你的定義是什麼"},{"start":9682.373,"end":9700.801,"text":"跟委員報告還是就是說我們是只有共軍對我們發動第一擊我們是行使自衛權那共軍的第一擊你的定義是什麼就是共軍攻擊我在航基建設施共軍攻擊我本外離島或者未經許可任何飛航實體進入我12海裏的領空領海"},{"start":9704.079,"end":9729.548,"text":"所以你包括了就是只要進入領海或領空你就可以下令做自衛權對因為是威脅的程度我們會和比例的做自衛緩急所以你包含開炮開槍就是攻擊我們的航空器或攻擊我們的基地等等之類的還有包含就是只要進入領海領空那麼就是你第一級的一個定義"},{"start":9730.981,"end":9742.857,"text":"基本上就是說,任何飛航實體沒有經過許可的話,我們進入我們的領空領海的話,我們就會視它的威脅程度進行合比例的自衛反擊。"},{"start":9744.017,"end":9765.344,"text":"另外請教一下就是當時在這個他的環島軍演的時候你去參加應變作戰會議你只停留了5分鐘請問一下部長這個外界其實有很大的質疑為什麼當天你只停留5分鐘跟委員報告我想這個不是一個停留5分鐘的"},{"start":9767.53,"end":9785.765,"text":"這個狀況事實上是在7點半我們就開始做了這個暫提情匯報你聽了幾分鐘我們在7點半就開始實施暫提情匯報在暫提情匯報的期間中共發布要實行歷屆演習我就已經在會中做下了一些指示指示之後呢開始應變中心應變中心"},{"start":9787.826,"end":9807.252,"text":"開設之後我進去聽取相關的敵情的當時敵情的狀況之後那我接下去處置的一些措施交由總長來負責主持所以你不否認得知軍演就得知軍演之後你去聽敵情的報告"},{"start":9809.349,"end":9809.509,"text":"在7點40幾分的時候就已經發佈了"},{"start":9820.336,"end":9846.301,"text":"部長這個事情其實讓外界對你第一個可能很多人覺得你是不是沒有進入狀況另外一個是不是你聽了之後你是我想你不至於聽不懂但是這個五分鐘事實上是讓外界對你能不能掌握敵情然後你可不可以下達指令你可不可以行使你國防部職權大家非常大的一個質疑"},{"start":9846.781,"end":9847.081,"text":"這一次去開行政院院會"},{"start":9873.531,"end":9874.192,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是黃國昌委員"},{"start":9901.107,"end":9904.011,"text":"部長,您接任那個位置的時候,跟前任的部長有沒有交接?"},{"start":9919.42,"end":9920.821,"text":"上一任在部長的時候我有請教部長說"},{"start":9948.443,"end":9967.78,"text":"因為這個公管營區的弊案他直接牽涉到的說這位負責的少將他在一場關鍵的會議當中他去更改了整個招標的規格那減少施作了很多的評訴也減少施作了很多的項目"},{"start":9968.841,"end":9993.953,"text":"其中一個關鍵的會議是在4月24號的時候因為我看了國防部的行政調查報告包括舊版跟新版新版是起訴以後的調查報告其實你們後來提供我又在拜讀其實跟起訴前的調查報告基本上實質上可以說是一模一樣我在新版的調查報告的時候我一樣沒有看到說為什麼在4月24號的關鍵會議沒有會議記錄上一次巡查的時候"},{"start":9998.135,"end":10015.212,"text":"回答的當部長回答的我們國防部的同仁說這樣沒有會議記錄是不正常的事情那針對這件事情我想要理解說部內後來有沒有在檢討這麼重要的會議竟然去修改了招標規格為什麼沒有會議記錄請部長"},{"start":10019.069,"end":10032.919,"text":"我粗淺的了解,等一下再請法律事務所長講,因為我之前就有相關了解就是說在這個部分確實有疏失的樣子,因為他好像原來在軍備局,後來到轉換另外一個他從空軍到軍備局"},{"start":10033.439,"end":10035.12,"text":"我相信國人很痛心沒有人可以忍受"},{"start":10059.031,"end":10087.941,"text":"我們在討論這件事情其實取決於兩個第一個事情是責任的追究該追究的責任要追究但追究責任不僅僅是追究責任我們要預防未來不會再發生所以我現在具體的問題是說我們現在大家確認了剛剛部長也說了這個是一個疏失那未來我們在有關於採購的這個SOP上面我們是不是應該要去建立一個最基本的規範如果牽涉到招標規格的修改"},{"start":10088.621,"end":10114.829,"text":"要有文字紀錄要有人負責部長或司長在不贊成我跟委員報告這個案子發生了之後我記得我們後續的檢討還有軍備局現在有的一些相關的規定裡面就這個部分已經有更改如果說一定程度的關係約時間的關係你會後齁把你們法規怎麼更改的好更改前的法規更改後的法規送一份給我這樣可以嗎好可以嗎好第二個"},{"start":10116.489,"end":10128.944,"text":"統包需求的修訂軍備局可以管嗎?請部長要請市長代答我也OK啦統包需求的修訂是軍備局可以管的嗎?"},{"start":10131.241,"end":10152.187,"text":"因為這個牽涉到層層的環節啊30億公管營區的案子要給空子部我們大家都支持啊但發生這麼嚴重的貪賭案件我們一定要去檢討行政流程到底出了哪裡的問題讓不孝的人可以上下其手嘛所以剛剛說以後這種修改規格的必須要有會議紀錄這個我認同"},{"start":10154.167,"end":10161.574,"text":"但是規範在哪裡 要寫清楚那第二個 統高需求修訂是軍備局可以管的嗎要部長還是市長都可以"},{"start":10162.652,"end":10180.446,"text":"我跟委員報告,他的整個作業流程,因為我不是管工程的,我沒有記得這麼清楚,但是...合共會主席站起來,你會後跟我講,可以嗎?我事實上跟你們講啦,你們自己的調查報告,白紙黑字就寫,這不是軍備局可以管的啦!這不是軍備局可以管的啦!"},{"start":10184.289,"end":10205.594,"text":"你們怎麼對自己的調查報告比我還不熟最後一件事情我只花30秒我要特別拜託部長演一件事情因為過去兩個禮拜有一個畫面讓我看了很心酸其實我認識他但是我看他每天在那邊吹風淋雨在立法院外面我看了心裡滿難過的就蔡雪良的媽媽"},{"start":10206.334,"end":10223.946,"text":"我不曉得部長今天來的時候是不是有看到蔡媽媽還有她的布條那其實她要的很簡單她要的只有一個真相因為在2020年的時候臺大法醫研究所做出來的鑑定報告說她兒子死亡的時候根本就不是T-65K2步槍及子彈"},{"start":10226.548,"end":10249.979,"text":"所造成的那當然因為他所發現的這個新的證據已經超過了我們對於再審期間的限制所以他提再審沒有過他提再審沒有過並不是因為沒有再審的事由而是超過了那個再審的期間部長您過去曾經講過面對過去的冤案我們應該要翻箱倒櫃的追問"},{"start":10251.6,"end":10276.487,"text":"這個精神我非常的認同我們在面對軍煙的時候特別是傷心欲絕的家人的時候我們政府其實真的有責任將心比心給對方一個真相一個公道所以我最後的懇求是這個樣子我不知道國防部有沒有收到蔡媽媽的陳情國防部可不可以慎重的在考慮重啟一次行政調查把最近"},{"start":10277.347,"end":10289.415,"text":"法院研究所他們所抽出來的鑑定的報告納入你們重啟行政調查的範圍當中最起碼告慰家屬給家屬一個真相跟交代部長這樣可以嗎"},{"start":10290.753,"end":10311.34,"text":"跟委員報告,因為這個案子之前我就有瞭解,我的瞭解是平淵協會那一邊已經幫他窮盡了所有相關司法的程序所以光部即使再次重啟行政調查,是不是能夠讓他在司法救濟上能夠有所得,我想在法律上"},{"start":10312.921,"end":10337.835,"text":"施法救濟的途徑我相信顧部長之前是個大律師我們都很了解訴訟法相關的規定但我現在在跳脫的已經不是施法救濟程序是他現在卡在心中的那個真相他兒子到底怎麼走的那法醫研究所驗出來的跟當初的結果不一致就這個部分國防部願意再重啟調查給這位傷心欲絕的媽媽一個基本的交代嗎"},{"start":10338.855,"end":10351.82,"text":"因為司法的調查,據我的了解已經把所有相關的證人都找去了,我們如果要再重啟行政調查,這可能那個權限的範圍是相當有限是"},{"start":10352.932,"end":10381.907,"text":"但是我覺得阿你們最起碼把他心中卡的這個疑點因為他現在提出來的鑑定報告阿就不是那個行的步槍所導致的嘛黃委員這個我想雙方立場表達清楚啦我建議國防部研議一下啦畢竟是一個跑者的性命一個媽媽的擔憂是你也可以慎重考慮因為我每天上班都看到蔡媽媽在立法院門口我看了心裡很難過啦部長這樣可以嗎其實上禮拜好像有找過他啦上禮拜我們有碰過面阿"},{"start":10382.347,"end":10395.679,"text":"國防部有主動找他們那是不是相關情形再跟黃委員進行溝通其實不用跟我溝通啦跟蔡媽媽溝通讓蔡媽媽可以接受我覺得這才是最重要的事情我們持續來跟他進行這個"},{"start":10400.122,"end":10425.392,"text":"這件事情請部長思考怎麼處理比較妥適當然有法律的有媽媽希望一個答案各方面的也呈現國防部對我們炮轍如果有冤的時候我們處理的方式跟態度那也許法律方式都已窮盡怎麼樣呈現我們對人關懷的這一塊那你們有主動找蔡媽媽這是好事情這是好的開始好謝謝接下來進行詢答的委員是李昆城委員時間4分鐘"},{"start":10433.732,"end":10459.95,"text":"好,謝謝主席,請顧部長來,部長請來,部長辛苦了李委員好謝謝,那也先恭喜部長這個是歷史上第七位文人部長那因為時間有限的關係我先請教部長這個有媒體傳出來就是說在參訊的時候你有提到說你要仿效美軍國防創新單位成立一個先進國防科技小組請問一下有沒有這回事情"},{"start":10460.985,"end":10463.609,"text":"有那他的任務的編組主要是什麼"},{"start":10465.944,"end":10491.054,"text":"現在是一個附加編組的一個狀態那我們現在是放在整平室國防部的整平室裡面那主要的任務是什麼主要的任務當然就是說我們去訪尋訪這個國內外相關相對成熟的這個技術然後將這個成熟的技術依照作戰的這一個需求能夠快速的納入到我們的這個"},{"start":10494.481,"end":10520.497,"text":"臺海防衛作戰構想,特別是在不對稱作戰這一塊。對,因為我看報道是說,關於不對稱作戰這一部分,部長也相當的重視,然後要相對成熟的一些科技項目,比如說新型無人機、船舶,確保臺海防衛不對稱作戰的優勢。那這個也是先進國防科技小組的主要任務嗎?"},{"start":10522.52,"end":10544.945,"text":"就是說我們著重在不對稱作戰的這一塊那當然無人機無人體對然後還有指管AI的這個運用因為AI的運用可能可以在指管的部分然後還有擊殺鏈的建構部分都發揮相當大的作用所以我們會大致上會在這一塊裡面先行琢磨那另外還有其他我想"},{"start":10546.925,"end":10549.868,"text":"現在無人機有軍用軍規的無人機,中科院主導,還有軍用商規的無人機,這個民間的無人機"},{"start":10571.025,"end":10595.122,"text":"其實現在產業也正在蓬勃的發展那我請教一下部長這個軍用商規的無人機我按照這個立法院預算中心的評估報告指出在2024到2028年間這個軍用商規的數量會達到6款總共3422架的規模那我先請教一下我們的部長我們的軍用軍規無人機有沒有抗GPS干擾的功能"},{"start":10596.625,"end":10611.698,"text":"我想有一些這個抗GPS干擾就是我們現在應該要來努力所以部長你這樣講是說目前我們的軍用軍規無人機沒有抗GPS的干擾嗎這個中科院說明一下"},{"start":10613.755,"end":10636.245,"text":"軍用軍規最主要是用軍規的標準來做那這個抗GPS的功能是一定有但是我想這邊還是容我保留,會後再跟委員做說明是有抗GPS還是抗無線電的干擾我們是防人家的干擾主要是抗相關對我們導航系統的干擾"},{"start":10637.165,"end":10652.86,"text":"至少我知道了啦從這個媒體上面有兩種干擾啦一種是GPS的干擾另外一個是無線電的干擾嘛還有一種就是電子干擾電子干擾那我好那我們軍用軍規的這個無人機能夠抗這三種干擾嗎"},{"start":10654.942,"end":10657.384,"text":"在規格裡面我們有把它列入評審的標準"},{"start":10682.876,"end":10711.492,"text":"委員請說明一下我們在規格裡面有把它列為評選加分的標準但是沒有一定規定說一定要有這個抗GPS的干擾就對了應該是說它的抗干擾能力越強它越容易被我們評選我是建議啦但當然你們是專家我只是就這個民意代表一般普通的常識來判斷啦不管是軍用軍規軍用商規我都希望它能夠有抗GPS的干擾"},{"start":10712.092,"end":10712.352,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":10742.055,"end":10743.396,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員"},{"start":10787.87,"end":10788.573,"text":"主席麻煩請部長來部長請"},{"start":10797.563,"end":10817.474,"text":"陳委員好部長好部長剛才李委員有提到說這個DIU國防創新小組那這一個概念其實在2015年美國就已經在國防部就已經成立這一個國防創新小組他是希望用更快速的方式來取得相關的武器裝備系統服務後勤等等"},{"start":10818.234,"end":10818.334,"text":"主席"},{"start":10837.95,"end":10862.946,"text":"那蕭副總統在2月份的時候也有預錄影片的時候主要是講科技與國安的關係所以我想請問一下在這個國防創新小組之外還有一個叫做Defense Innovation Board就是國防創新委員會我想請教部長有沒有針對這個部分從上而下從戰略到戰術的執行部分有沒有相關的計畫未來都有做相關的處置再問什麼"},{"start":10864.549,"end":10877.107,"text":"針對DIB的部分它其實是美國國防部針對未來科技運用它的一個臨時性的組織它網絡民間的人士和軍方專業的人士我們也都會有這樣子的規劃"},{"start":10878.086,"end":10903.645,"text":"因為他這個臨時性的組織到現在已經好幾年了那包含商業界學術界生物化學科技還有包含我們國防安全產業鏈都納入他裡面討論包含前Google的CEO這個史密特這些重要的科技巨頭全部都可以直接進來然後去跟國防安全相關的產業來進行對話我們來看一下來第三頁"},{"start":10907.391,"end":10926.545,"text":"現在我們要面臨的中國威脅我們必須要用更快速的方式更創新的方式更致命的方式我為什麼把三大階段把它放在上面就是希望從教育開始就能夠讓這一個不同產業界的人能夠進入那我想大家應該很熟悉Hacking for Defense的這種相關的課程"},{"start":10927.205,"end":10927.685,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告業務概況"},{"start":10942.554,"end":10942.894,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告業務概況：完整會議"},{"start":10970.618,"end":10971.278,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":10995.15,"end":11019.609,"text":"讓這些原型產品的開發競速驗證能夠加速最後再透過合作跟協作的管道讓科技界、新創產業界甚至是成熟的商業界的巨頭能夠加入所以從最開始的科技的研發到投資到資本擴充到從一個新創產業變成有規模的產業它是有一個Pipeline這個Pipeline就是生產的管道創新的管道"},{"start":11021.07,"end":11046.643,"text":"如果美國這一個其實他並不太需要說所謂用這個不對策戰爭因為他不管是在任何陸海空不對策戰爭裡面他都是大概是國防安全領域裡面最強的霸主但是他們都還願意去嘗試用新的管道從教育到加速到合作到協作讓每一個不同產業界的人都能夠產業進入到這一個市場裡面我認為這是我們必須要正視的"},{"start":11047.723,"end":11067.698,"text":"剛才幾位國民黨的立法委員不斷地在針對這些美國的國防的供應商來台灣大家都好像非常的忌憚說好像我們講的這個就是跟軍火商有關我們就非常的擔心我們就非常的害怕就這個都必須要三尖其口最好是不要發表任何的意見最好是跟這些國防產業鏈都沒有關係最好我認為這是錯誤的"},{"start":11069.119,"end":11096.206,"text":"不要把這些美國的國防產業當成是怎麼會變成是我們國安上面這是我們最重要的供應商之一然後我們把他講的好像要跟他劃清界限一樣並不是這樣子他們也在美國的國防產業裡面扮演重要的角色啊我們同時也需要這些重要的武器設備系統後勤啊我們怎麼可以把他們好像說最好是不要見最好是不要看到最好新聞不要講到好像他們來的時候我們就是好像是我們跟他採買就好像出現什麼狀況一樣"},{"start":11097.626,"end":11122.483,"text":"這是不對的沒有一個國家需要安全設備需要國防戰略的資產像我們一樣的我們必須要面對是中國的挑戰我們自己一個人沒有辦法去面對必須要跟我們其他國家合作嘛包含日本包含菲律賓包含美國這些國防產業鏈我們必須要進入而且不必害怕說我們要進入這些產業鏈不僅是對方的市場能夠進來我方的市場我方的市場也可以進入對方的市場阿"},{"start":11123.607,"end":11146.009,"text":"臺中也好或者是我們中南部有這麼多我這個相關機密機械的零件的製造商怎麼會不能夠參加呢所以我必須講到剛才我們提到這三大階段其實這些階段性任務裡面包含教育裡面都可以歡迎我們的產業鏈的這些重要的企業的這些供應商進駐他還知道說現在的國防產業裡面他們缺少什麼樣的狀況缺少什麼樣的設備他們才可以進入這個產業鏈嗎"},{"start":11147.19,"end":11165.02,"text":"所以我們說用快速的方式用創新的方式來去加入我們這樣的產業的這個國防產業的這個更加蓬勃我認為這是有必要的那部長我想剛剛講這麼多我是希望說呃部長可以畢竟是文人部長他不見得是要用過去的思維"},{"start":11166.277,"end":11185.647,"text":"您覺得接下來有沒有辦法讓更多不同的業界的人士也不見得是只有跟國防相關人士進入我們的國防體系跟委員報告現在的國防工業它有一個比較大幅的一個變化是過去都是幾大軍火工業商"},{"start":11185.987,"end":11210.473,"text":"但事實上現在因為這個AI的技術發展的結果很多矽谷的他已經加入了這個國防產業鏈的一部分那所以我們在這一塊不管是在我當任國安會期間或到國防部我想我們當時發想在成立DIU的這個時候的目的就是在引進這些相對於他們已經"},{"start":11213.314,"end":11213.514,"text":"謝謝部長,那我們來談一下這個"},{"start":11238.453,"end":11258.303,"text":"另外一個非常重要的就是無人機跟軍工產業的部分特別是在我們的民雄航太園區那我想民雄航太園區裡面有中科院的航太及無人機園區那還會規劃西側的這個產業園區那之前我們也一再的跟之前的前任的院長跟部長來去詢問說有沒有辦法可以協助我們西側產業園區的規劃"},{"start":11260.755,"end":11284.799,"text":"我認為就如同我們剛才講到的這一個三大階段裡面的加速加速器就是把創新管道能夠提供實驗室資源設備資源等等讓這些加速原型產品的開發核心技術的驗證所以過去在美國是有把一些先進的這一個包含這一個火箭推動的實驗室是有讓一些民間的企業跟國防產業上的企業可以去租用的"},{"start":11285.319,"end":11285.619,"text":"民運雄航太園區西側基地"},{"start":11301.03,"end":11323.008,"text":"就是要引入這個民間的包括這個相關的這些不管是航太或無人機的相關研發的產製的工作那再結合我們東側的中科院園區的研發試驗的能量然後再結合經濟部的想像的亞創中心的創新研發一組的無人機的測試場我們來共同打造嘉義無人機的一個"},{"start":11323.749,"end":11323.769,"text":"韓蓋經濟部"},{"start":11349.932,"end":11353.317,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是羅廷偉委員謝主席有請部長來部長請"},{"start":11370.439,"end":11388.073,"text":"部長好,台灣維俄有主權意涵的象徵,我想外交部跟國防部,一個捍衛國家利益,不容侵犯,一個守護國家的主權。作為少數非君子出身的文人部長,國人對部長有很多的期待,比如國人希望部長能夠讓解放軍不敢武力犯台。"},{"start":11389.154,"end":11412.25,"text":"國軍的眷屬會希望部長可以找回軍人的尊嚴國軍的弟兄姊妹希望部長可以多照顧好國軍這個大家庭讓軍人保衛國家可以安心安家部長安心安家這一點我認為非常重要那我想跟你探討一下我們邊線比偏低的一個問題部長請問理論上國軍邊線比要達到百分之多少才是正常戰力的結構"},{"start":11418.351,"end":11440.527,"text":"請問國防部目前各軍種的邊線比是多少?方便透露嗎?呃,跟委員我想,各比就不透露,總的來講現在是78。78?就我手上知道,國軍戰鬥部隊,因為不管是陸軍的聯兵連,或者是空軍的聯隊,海軍的艦隊,後備線兵支通電的一個軍線比,我們不一一細談。"},{"start":11441.288,"end":11457.411,"text":"但是我要跟大家報告的是國軍戰鬥部隊的邊線比大多都低於80%如同你剛剛說的齁要達到80%我們現在只有78代表著現在正常的戰力結構但現在低於80請問問題您覺得大概數在哪裡?"},{"start":11458.558,"end":11472.557,"text":"跟委員報告我了解就是說我們主戰部隊特別在北部地區的邊線筆確實是過地了是那我們必須要針對這些主戰部隊的邊線筆過地的這個原因呢要"},{"start":11474.858,"end":11501.447,"text":"對陣下要來提升北部地區的主戰部隊的邊線比因為這個第13專區加衛戍作戰是我們的重中之重所以我想這個部分我已經責成他們就是針對這個特別是北部地區的主戰部隊我們要來適切的來提出一個具體的一個好的方案來增加招募以外也增加流營率這個是很重要的"},{"start":11502.027,"end":11529.847,"text":"謝謝部長重視這個問題我們都擔心武力犯台我們都希望守護中華民國而現在我們看到台灣面臨少子化的問題我就不細談了少子化已經造成人口數越來越少因應敵情各部隊的邊線比比例較低又卻又不斷的擴編喔兵力的成長能力我們擔憂到底從何而來國防部因應少子化以及一級變革部隊擴編等現象造成國軍部隊的邊線比偏低如何提升誘因"},{"start":11530.828,"end":11541.001,"text":"福利以及薪資結構招募更多的人對於這個薪資結構的部分您覺得替我們的國軍弟兄來爭取更多的福利來加薪這個您可以認同嗎"},{"start":11544.057,"end":11571.252,"text":"對這個這個我我我我看他們給我這個加級啊這個加級一覽表啊就相當的長啊是那我覺得呃我們要跟主計呃總處要來爭取的時候啊我覺得我剛剛已經講了戰鬥部隊的加級等等的那呃這這些部分啊我們是不是要能夠對症下藥在這一點上對症下藥然後來持續的研擬喔因為時間有限啦我是在舉例啦齁因為包括現在流營的獎勵目前怎麼發放"},{"start":11574.224,"end":11602.298,"text":"劉銀的獎勵跟委員說明一下就是我們現在劉銀第一年就是一萬七第二年三萬三第三年五萬目前我們在積極爭取這三年內來領十萬那我先講啦不好意思時間有限沒有要考導你只是希望能夠有更多的建議為什麼預備役有劉銀獎勵為什麼常備役卻沒有軍人的福利我們希望能夠一一的慢慢的提升我舉例國軍返鄉的車程能不能補助"},{"start":11603.138,"end":11618.284,"text":"這個我們應該好好的討論外離島的服役的官士兵從外離島返台的車程不管是船或者是飛機都有補助但是從到回到台灣本島回到自己的各縣市這個有沒有補助這個我們是不是應該來研議"},{"start":11619.264,"end":11641.167,"text":"新資的結構軍人是一種專職的工作和醫生護理師公務人員都一樣負的責任可能更特殊一點軍人的年資業務量工作環境等等部長您來自民間也當過金管會的主委應該很清楚民間企業的狀況國軍的新資待遇以及對於民間企業的新資部長我認為有提升很大的幅度的空間當然主戰部隊更應該加強"},{"start":11642.188,"end":11644.269,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員﹚中加兵委員﹚中加兵委員﹚中加兵委員不在﹚"},{"start":11665.878,"end":11682.119,"text":"羅智強委員 羅智強委員 羅智強委員不在吳思瑤委員 吳思瑤委員 吳思瑤委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在游浩委員 游浩委員 游浩委員不在林俊憲委員 林俊憲委員 林俊憲委員不在"},{"start":11683.24,"end":11702.455,"text":"今日已登記質詢委員出不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林益君委員、羅志祥委員、蘇清泉委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報相關單位已書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":11704.488,"end":11723.211,"text":"委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分：或者要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供若委員與相關單位約定期限則依其所定本日會議到此結束大家辛苦了散會"},{"start":11741.84,"end":11758.093,"text":"主席"},{"start":11776.971,"end":11789.243,"text":"主持這麼多天夜報啊,只有國防部夜報的時候沒有請"},{"start":11800.35,"end":11816.418,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15993","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea4f41088fe7fdcd9e9b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4ee3b84b94279fc985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」：(一)審查行政院函請審議「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。(三)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案」案。【第(二)案、第(三)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例」：(一)審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員林岱樺等18人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「宗教團體以自然人名義登記不動產處理暫行條例第五條條文修正草案」案。【第(二)案至第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】三、「海洋保育法草案」：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「海洋保育法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(四)繼續審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(五)繼續審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(六)繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(七)繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(八)繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(九)繼續審查委員羅美玲等17人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十)繼續審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十一)繼續審查委員莊瑞雄等20人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十二)繼續審查委員洪申翰等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十三)繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十四)繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十五)繼續審查委員高金素梅等22人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十六)繼續審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十七)繼續審查委員蔡易餘等19人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。(十八)繼續審查委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「海洋保育法草案」案。【6月5日及6日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-06T08:29:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:43:00+08:00","duration":15240,"影片長度":"04:14:00","委員發言時間":"08:29:00 - 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人員署專門委員游祥偉、地質調查及礦業管理中心秘書許希傑、產業"},{"start":2155.605,"end":2177.1,"text":"五、產業延期管理及專門委員曾士傑、台灣電力公司專業總工程師鄭天德、中油股份公司組長王兆培、"},{"start":2181.52,"end":2205.416,"text":"財政部國庫署工股管理組副組長李新芬、國有財產署檢任計政周富成、交通部行政司檢任計政鄭鴻正、"},{"start":2212.753,"end":2240.472,"text":"農業部漁業署沿海海、沿海海漁業組組長劉胡生、紀事謝邦傑、水產事業所主任秘書曾正德、海洋漁業組副研究員袁國偉、"},{"start":2244.403,"end":2269.017,"text":"凌烈保育署保育管理組組科長陳志穎。有來吼。環境部水質保護師檢任基政邱國書。好。謝謝。法務部法治司副司長謝志敏。不好意思。"},{"start":2271.184,"end":2292.913,"text":"司法院行政侍送懲戒廳法官陳彥霖文化部文化資產及穀物移植組副組長洪義祥公安部資源規劃師財務資源處檢任基政副政期"},{"start":2302.701,"end":2325.353,"text":"原住民委員會發展處處長宋麗如土地管理處科長吳秉辰國家科學技術研究院自然科學永續研究發展處副處長陳曉琳"},{"start":2332.27,"end":2352.721,"text":"國家發展委員會社會發展處專門委員邱承旭行政院人事行政總處主編人事處專門委員曾永芳行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員邱碧珠"},{"start":2359.318,"end":2383.933,"text":"基金預算處專門委員戴琴芳好謝謝我們在列席以上官員來在浦東介紹我們的委員習宇貞委員鄭天才委員蘇巧慧委員黃潔委員好"},{"start":2402.137,"end":2417.346,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":2420.458,"end":2449.197,"text":"11屆第1會期第17次會議開始主條審查在進行主條討論前有關本日會議我們繼續審查海洋保育法之後需保留條文為求提高意識效力"},{"start":2450.908,"end":2474.814,"text":"其實海洋保育法能早在立法院完成三讀立法程序本席建議本會各委員是否同意本會會議討論海洋保育法草案請先就本委員會審查保留之條文進行討論如各位委員對其對"},{"start":2476.794,"end":2498.024,"text":"對其他通過之條文還有意見我們再回頭處理有意見之條文請各位委員代表有無意見有無異議好沒有那現在我們就進行討論海洋保育法草案保留第四條之條文"},{"start":2498.972,"end":2526.422,"text":"第一頁,修正動議有羅廷偉委員所決定,再排成第十頁。好,那我們第四條的修正動議,我們羅廷偉委員等在第十頁。好,沒來我們就不處理。好,那現在我們就..."},{"start":2528.635,"end":2554.235,"text":"第四條,看大家有沒有意見。好,針對第四條,大家有沒有意見。沒有。好,沒有。好,那我們就照行政院的行政院版。不好意思,第四條,之前有,對,加上就是說前向海洋保護區之整合規劃及執行由主管機關會同有關主管機關定職。我是有增加這個部分,第四條。就這個部分,對,有增加。"},{"start":2562.298,"end":2573.492,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":2582.885,"end":2607.453,"text":"跟委員報告就是針對委員提到前項海洋保護區之整合規劃及執行由主管機關會同有關主管機關定之那相關的海洋保護區細部的整合規劃執行其實在第二章的海洋保護區各條都有詳細的說明所以我們建議在第一章的總則就維持行政院的版本那有關委員關心的事項我們在第二章每條可以去做安排"},{"start":2611.866,"end":2633.591,"text":"上一次跟委員在說明的時候應該已經提過這一段。所以是指說後面的第二章的條文你們就可以申請這個部分來做?對,對,對,後面的海洋保護區就會有詳細的說明。包括有一些會是會同的方式在第二章第六跟第七條。好,那我們行政委員,那造行政院的版本通過有沒有意見?"},{"start":2634.909,"end":2662.268,"text":"OK啦齁好那我們第4條就照行政院的版本通過謝謝那我們接下來處理第6條好那我們接下來我們就處理第6條第6條有我們高津宿美昭委還有以貞習以貞委員的修正動議在第二月跟第14月來各位我們放開第二月跟第14月"},{"start":2669.65,"end":2688.115,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":2699.946,"end":2722.924,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":2725.231,"end":2732.386,"text":"對照表的第15頁本席的條文第6條我的第一項"},{"start":2736.57,"end":2755.992,"text":"我的第6條的第1、2、3應該是第三項。第三項有特別提到第一項整體海洋保護區管理政策方針應尊重、維護、保存傳統用海智慧等海洋文化資產"},{"start":2757.213,"end":2768.819,"text":"保障已傳承沿駐民族傳統用海文化及潛意,這是跟行政院版本不一樣的地方,請大家支持。"},{"start":2776.978,"end":2798.841,"text":"剛剛第一條徐委員提到有關於漁民的照顧的部分我們想為了一個維持整個一個國家的法治秩序所以基本上其實在後面針對萬一化設了保護區跟庇護區造成可能現在漁民的權益損失我們在後面的條文有關於相關的賠償條款那所以在這個地方是不是建議就維持行政院的版本"},{"start":2799.651,"end":2820.763,"text":"這個地方還有就是我還有修正動議就是要會同有關主管機關跟這個原住民的機關訂定職這個地方就已經有這個會同有關機關的部分的修正那在會同的部分就是第一句我念一下有關於中央主管機關應會同各中央目的事業主管這個部分我們可以接受調整"},{"start":2821.203,"end":2843.313,"text":"所以我再唸一遍就是我們會把它調整成中央主管機關應會同各中央目的事業主管機關去訂定以下所提到的海洋政策整個管理政策方針會同這個部分好"},{"start":2845.421,"end":2845.441,"text":"審訊委員"},{"start":2858.931,"end":2885.928,"text":"謝謝召委還有各位委員就是我想做一下總體架構的說明然後我們在主條譬如說為什麼第六條我們會認為可以改會同在上一次我們委員會審議的時候大概留下的保留條文總共分四大區塊第一個區塊就是到底會商跟會同牽涉的十個條文這個是第一大區塊"},{"start":2887.109,"end":2909.539,"text":"二大區塊是法則。法則當時我們當然有一些討論,但是最後法規會給我們的建議是說本與法秩序我們可能要注意階梯式的、漸進式的比例的問題、比例原則的考量。所以第二大區塊大概就是法則的部分。"},{"start":2910.179,"end":2938.899,"text":"審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會 審議會"},{"start":2938.999,"end":2962.403,"text":"法制序上第一個任何一個法律它都有目的事業主管機關那海保法的目的事業主管機關就是海委會那這個部分我們很希望能夠維持這個法制序為什麼因為這個法定位涉及的是權與責那因為我們有採用譬如說公民訴訟公民訴訟的時候它的主體"},{"start":2966.704,"end":2983.82,"text":"被告就是我們海委會海保署或海委會這樣子。那我們承擔的是公民訴訟的被告的法地位的時候,我們作為目的事業主管機關的這個法的這個地位跟角色我們就希望能夠維持。"},{"start":2984.801,"end":2999.26,"text":"但是在我們國家所有的法律體系裡面有一些法律確實是會才會同那我們瞭解這個法律的制定的基本秩序的時候會同的部分"},{"start":2999.901,"end":3013.803,"text":"就是涉及其他主管機關共同權責的部分會用會同但是屬於目的事業主管機關權責應該相符的部分我們很希望還是能夠接受我們會商"},{"start":3015.425,"end":3033.263,"text":"所以經過這十條會商與會同整體研析的結果我們有兩條我們認為涉及其他目的事業主管機關其他主管機關有重疊有共同的業務的部分有兩條"},{"start":3034.424,"end":3056.297,"text":"一條就是第六條另外一條就是19條比如說第六條它是保護區的總體的治理那各保護區它有各保護區的目的事業主管機關所以這一條涉及的全責就是有與其他主管機關相同的部分所以第六條為什麼剛剛我們副署長會說這一條我們可以採取會同"},{"start":3061.9,"end":3079.879,"text":"因為我們是涉及各保護機關相關的政策管理方針所以第6條是這樣那第19條我們等一下會討論就是它確實也有涉及其他主管機關的部分那剩下的8條裡面有2條是涉及原住民的部分"},{"start":3080.479,"end":3104.785,"text":"那涉及原住民的這兩條我們會以增列第九條那增列第九條來處理這兩條的時候就不必會同了因為它等於就是絕對的權利了甚至於比會同更強的絕對的權利了因為是遂行原住民基本法相關規定的程序那現在要討論就是說我們是放在哪裡"},{"start":3106.706,"end":3125.499,"text":"這兩條的會同我們改成原住民的諮商同意條款的時候是要放在哪裡?我們的版本當然是放在政令第九條,但是高級委員的版本是希望能夠放在總則的位置。這個可能就是我們等一下一起來討論這樣子。"},{"start":3127.72,"end":3148.939,"text":"有兩條我們涉及其他主管機關的權責所以第6條跟第19條徐委員有建議說要用會同的這個部分那蘇橋會委員也有建議到原住民要會同的這些部分那好多委員都有建議到會同的部分的話就第6跟第19我們覺得說這個我們也認為說這個確實是應該要來會同"},{"start":3154.083,"end":3181.873,"text":"二條是原住民處理,那剩下的六條我們真的非常懇切的希望說我們委員會能夠支持維持我們目的事業主管機關權責相符的這個基本的法律的結構,然後另外的這六條可能還是要請各位委員支持我們用會商,那這個部分我就先做一個大體的說明,那主條的時候再請我們副主委跟署長跟大家做說明,謝謝。"},{"start":3184.95,"end":3189.191,"text":"陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3211.636,"end":3240.128,"text":"有資料嗎?所以這個部分的話我想說這個既然這個有兩個原則第一個就是一的就放在總則裡面總則裡面你們要放哪一條要怎麼寫這是要讓我們知道第二個就是說這個原住民的只要是看到這個會同這個部分只要在總則上裡面你們願意加入然後文字我這邊其實也有待會我們來討論一下"},{"start":3241.488,"end":3242.508,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":3262.379,"end":3281.472,"text":"剛才我們這個主委特別提到會同跟會商的不同確實是有很大的不同那因為這個法例涉及到不僅僅是原住民還包含廣大的移民"},{"start":3282.642,"end":3301.989,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案 條例草案 案"},{"start":3312.392,"end":3331.408,"text":"大家這個農業部關於漁業署的部分或是相關這些移民的潛意的部分提出了意見那延民會針對原住民署的潛意的部分提出了意見或是其他的部會提出了意見"},{"start":3336.027,"end":3348.801,"text":"海洋委員會不採納如果會上的話他可以不採納就照海洋委員會的所以會統就不是一定要大家要溝通啊溝通而且要會賢變成要會賢"},{"start":3352.52,"end":3371.922,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、詐欺犯罪草案案件、"},{"start":3375.929,"end":3400.389,"text":"行政單位說明跟委員說明其實剛剛主委已經針對會同跟會商的安排做一個說明那的確就如同剛剛徐委員、高清委員跟鄭委員提到的所以在第六條會涉及到各相關的目的事業主管機關所以在這一條我們會採用會同的方式那就是我們現在先呈現在螢幕上面的會同各中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3401.95,"end":3424.935,"text":"這一條我們會調整為會統,因為的確跟其他的剛提到的農業部或者是原民會等其他單位有關、機關有關係。那至於剛剛高金委員提到關於原住民權益的部分,我們安排之前跟委員這邊安排的條文,我們等一下是放在第9條會做說明,那同樣會...那...那是不是..."},{"start":3430.586,"end":3439.598,"text":"六條,剛才文字修訂,大家看螢幕好不好。大家看螢幕,看螢幕有沒有問題好不好。好,我們高興。"},{"start":3444.464,"end":3464.817,"text":"主席不好意思剛剛主委一直在講說因為我們現在馬上要進入到我到底要不要堅持就是會同在第6條裡面放剛剛主委講說因為我們現在只從第4條開始但是事實上我講的主委講的總則部分在4條以前所以那是5條第5條那第5條"},{"start":3467.438,"end":3476.103,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":3491.691,"end":3512.467,"text":"對,現在我們是討論第6條,第4條也通過了。主席,你堅持會同?我當然是堅持,但是主委剛剛就意思就講說,如果未來在非常多的條文裡面有會同的話,讓我是不是就不要堅持,我說如果在很多的條文裡面都是會同原民會,我們就在總則裡面就直接放。"},{"start":3513.248,"end":3540.777,"text":"但是現在如果是要從第四條、第五條、第六條開始的話,那我就非得要堅持這樣的文字了。好嗎?謝謝召委,謝謝。因為我們好像跟主委跟海保署的看法好像沒有一樣。好,那有我們再說明。不知道你第六條不是同意會同的。我們第六條已經接受委員的建議願意調整。"},{"start":3542.277,"end":3542.757,"text":"綜合委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3567.286,"end":3581.995,"text":"第6條是不是還是總則的範圍?第二章了,對,第二章了,那個僑費委員已經是第二章了,所以我們就逼他不是總則了,他是必須在每個條文裡面都要了,所以跟主委剛剛講的是不太一樣,謝謝。"},{"start":3585.062,"end":3611.255,"text":"謝謝昭緯各位委員跟大會報告就是這樣高經委員所講的是要放在總則的部分是我們版本所提供的建議的增列第9條那增列第9條要處理的就包括蘇喬惠委員、高經委員、鄭天才委員處理的原住民的諮商同意權"},{"start":3612.555,"end":3633.84,"text":"我們是建議增列第9條的條文。高經委員在這幾日的討論之中,希望我們的增列第9條,就用增列第9條的內容,但是條文是放在總則。"},{"start":3635.816,"end":3664.576,"text":"那今天應該是可以討論這個課題我們也想請那個法務部門如果說體力上OK但是請高金委員是不是因為需要修正案高金委員的修正案好像是放在第五條那等於是第五條要回過頭來一輪來討論這樣子但是修正案沒有送出來所以我們才走程序的時候才沒走到那一個"},{"start":3666.229,"end":3669.79,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":3681.894,"end":3682.455,"text":"第五條,我們今天是從第四條開始。"},{"start":3698.382,"end":3713.927,"text":"第六條啦!對啊!這已經是第六條啦!所以我跟你們海保署講的是放在第五條裡面啊!所以已經不處理第五條啦!沒有!所以我們才會說要請委員趕快把修正案拿出來我們來討論這樣子!因為沒有修正案!"},{"start":3713.927,"end":3722.01,"text":"因為我已經才是說從第六條開始了嘛!所以我就從第六條啊!那你講的跟我辦公室談的不一樣啊!那請問一下!請問一下!"},{"start":3728.65,"end":3745.359,"text":"海保署署長你那天在嘛我們不是說在總則裡面要放嗎請你們回去那文字嘛你們的文字在哪裡總則裡面怎麼放文字就是增列第九條的文字那第九條已經是第二章了不是總則了是"},{"start":3745.759,"end":3748.8,"text":"總則與第二章是完全不一樣的回事,所以主委在這裡不要混淆視聽。如果你們沒有辦法在總則裡面拿出來的話,所謂的總則就是四條以前嘛。"},{"start":3762.566,"end":3779.422,"text":"第九條已經不是總結,那是第二章了。我們好像雞頭鴨講一樣,我們不要浪費太多時間了,我們就從第六條,同意第六條。我們就不要浪費時間了,我們就同意從第六條,然後他們沒有意見,我們第六條就放這樣的文字。"},{"start":3782.164,"end":3791.613,"text":"第六條說沒意見,但是主委說一下,看到底問題如何,大家理清一下,因為這個法要修好,也有意見的人,看要怎樣。"},{"start":3794.114,"end":3797.315,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":3814.322,"end":3834.249,"text":"當時我們認為說委員會的程序不是我們能做主,所以應該在今天委員會討論。就是說第五條當初通過,現在要不要回過頭來討論。好,那我們現在休息五分鐘,我們大家協調一下好不好。好,謝謝。"},{"start":3838.577,"end":3858.49,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":3860.026,"end":3860.046,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":3887.475,"end":3897.74,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十。"},{"start":3901.067,"end":3926.975,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":3933.558,"end":3949.892,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":3951.493,"end":3971.172,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":3972.213,"end":3993.761,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":3995.141,"end":4021.226,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":4022.126,"end":4042.561,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":4043.541,"end":4069.291,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":4071.333,"end":4085.991,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":4087.613,"end":4106.545,"text":"第四條是一條,第九條是他們想要的。有的重點是,如果他們願意的話,那麼就放在種族合體內。我們的種族則是第一條、第二條、第三條、第四條。這等是全都...第四條,第四條是一條。"},{"start":4115.31,"end":4115.891,"text":"審查委員會第1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":4145.11,"end":4145.13,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":4166.457,"end":4166.477,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、50、51、52、52、53、54、55、56、56、57、58、59、59、59、60、60、61、62、62、62、63、62、62、63、62、62、63、62、62、62、63、62、64、65、67、67、67、67、67、68、68、68、68、68、68、69、69、70、70、70、71、71、71、72、71、72、72、72、72、72、72、73、72、72、72"},{"start":4188.464,"end":4204.496,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":4204.616,"end":4215.96,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":4228.005,"end":4241.322,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":4244.906,"end":4260.464,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":4261.425,"end":4279.619,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":4287.897,"end":4287.917,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":4316.829,"end":4336.61,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":4340.634,"end":4363.604,"text":"第四條之一應該吧沒關係啦主委不管他是不是罪有不就是應該嘛沒有沒有就是應該應該要依照原住民法就是應該要依照有沒有什麼意見啊因依原住民族基本法以及海洋基本法的規定辦理上"},{"start":4366.145,"end":4384.276,"text":"大家都非常堅持,我台灣人也很堅持。大家都可以寫條,大家都堅持,我們都不要寫條而已。"},{"start":4393.061,"end":4417.074,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐"},{"start":4417.874,"end":4424.417,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案。"},{"start":4442.216,"end":4447.877,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":4454.931,"end":4477.808,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯�"},{"start":4478.669,"end":4493.65,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":4496.052,"end":4496.072,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":4524.873,"end":4542.545,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":4542.865,"end":4568.011,"text":"那依剛剛的協商的結果我們增訂第四條之一我們高津市美我們的召委那我們修正動議請各位委員看我們的螢幕螢幕的修訂那有沒有異議等一下我們就來做個決定好我們高津召委召委"},{"start":4573.892,"end":4588.881,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":4595.779,"end":4612.984,"text":"好那我們第四條之一齁針對齁的條文齁齁我們就暫定第四條之一啦齁那我們就照案通過喔好謝謝好那我們繼續來討論第六條"},{"start":4617.594,"end":4643.366,"text":"我們審議簽第6條還有沒有意見。第6條就是用會同了嘛。會同,對。好,那第6條就正面會同。好,那我們就修正通過了。文字是不是可以再我們再看一下。文字修正通過,第6條。沒有啦,主席先看一個啦。好。好好好。"},{"start":4646.22,"end":4663.509,"text":"六條就沒 剛剛都講好了沒沒問題啊你就趕快就拜託趕快通過啦好第六條我們就修正通過啦謝謝好來進行"},{"start":4669.14,"end":4682.308,"text":"七條有高津昭委、洪森翰委員、羅廷偉委員、徐以貞委員、蘇巧慧委員、黃潔委員共同修正動議。"},{"start":4688.032,"end":4709.092,"text":"好 因為其實我們都很支持這邊的審議會應該要放入原住民族跟漁民團體那我的建議是是不是還可以再加上保育團體就是如果說要這麼列舉的話就是都讓我們認為重要應該要參與的團體都名列在上面那這個是我的建議啦"},{"start":4715.345,"end":4734.852,"text":"主席、各位同仁那我當然我的條文版本裡面當然也是本來針對原住民有特別的提出啦那可是今天早上一方面是經過大家這樣幾次的審議一方面今天早上黃婕委員也有提出那我也是支持說如果要這樣的話那列舉那就照黃婕委員的版本乾脆要放的就多放幾個啊"},{"start":4736.473,"end":4736.773,"text":"王森漢委員"},{"start":4750.928,"end":4769.884,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、九、一、二、三、四、五、一、二、三、四、五、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、一、二、三、"},{"start":4778.692,"end":4784.253,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":4786.154,"end":4786.454,"text":"審判委員、協議中委員"},{"start":4809.511,"end":4809.731,"text":"鄭天才委員"},{"start":4831.016,"end":4849.4,"text":"非常謝謝這個就是這條這個是不是就把名列把那個移民還有原住民是不是把名訂在這個條裡面然後就是好謝謝然後另外就是針對就是海洋屁股去劃定之後就應該給於受損害的漁業人或漁業權人補償"},{"start":4852.041,"end":4870.176,"text":"相關的補償方法就是由中央主管機關會同有關機關還有原住民機關跟漁民團體之後定制這個部分我覺得也非常的重要因為劃定了這個海洋屁股區之後可能有些他必須離漁也許有些他必須就沒有辦法從事漁業的工作那這部分應該是要依據他實際受損的狀況給予補償這是我第七條"},{"start":4874.299,"end":4879.484,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":4890.891,"end":4915.039,"text":"好 這邊謝謝各位建議包括剛提到從保育團體、原住民、漁民跟相關的團體那整體來說因為在整個官方跟非官方比例上因為還有會作為中央主管機關要有一定的責任跟主導權特別是後面有涉及到公民訴訟的條款所以我們希望委員還是可以接受我們原本建議的二分之一是官方的代表"},{"start":4915.859,"end":4929.411,"text":"二分之一部分剛有考慮到可能很多利益相關人所以我們提出一個新的想法是說我們把他的決策權用三分之二決的方式變成說只要有三分之一的有三分之二的委員同意才能通過劃設"},{"start":4930.952,"end":4954.657,"text":"至於另外三分之一關於原住民、漁民代表之前跟委員談的時候我們提過說因為跟幾位委員談過我們目前的想法是針對原住民跟漁民的部分我們建議可以把它定在委員數的三分之一我們之前提到是民間團體剛剛蘇委員有提到說加保育團體的部分我想這塊我們可以開放大委員們來討論看委員們的決定"},{"start":4957.057,"end":4958.939,"text":"中央主管機關為辦理前項業務應設審議會由專家學者我們增列原住民、漁民團體等民間團體"},{"start":4974.258,"end":4988.466,"text":"那下面提到不具官方身份之代表人不得少於委員總人數二分之一那後面也針對之前許委員高紀委的建議我們把它調整成原住民及漁民團體之代表總人數不得少於委員之"},{"start":4989.866,"end":5006.094,"text":"總人數三分之一那我們再往下如果擔心說三分之一不夠的話其實我們增加了一項就是審議會之決議以委員過半數之出席出席委員超過三分之二同意行之所以要取得三分之二的絕對多數"},{"start":5007.355,"end":5034.98,"text":"那後面也提到剛剛徐委員提到關於補償的部分我們在這個地方增列了一項關於海洋庇護區域之核心區劃設至該區域之既有使用人遭受特別犧牲資損失者應予補償那這塊就會包括移民也包括其他可能的相關既有使用者那以上是目前我們初步的修正文字請委員參考主席在這裡修正文字的時候保育團體你沒放過"},{"start":5039.937,"end":5042.864,"text":"對,就這是我們在之前準備好的,那剛委員提到我們可以再往"},{"start":5043.829,"end":5054.796,"text":"黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員黃婉婉委員"},{"start":5071.647,"end":5074.836,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":5075.666,"end":5101.846,"text":"移民代表三分之一、原住民三分之一還是要有一個比例的合理比例啦我住民三分之一、移民三分之一、跟村民三分之一、要租管黨委、要保育團好,來,我們這樣齁,陸委員各位委員,我剛仔細看了一下海委會他這樣子,其實"},{"start":5103.942,"end":5121.88,"text":"每個委員都說要多少多少可是我覺得以他剛剛這樣寫如果會議那個審議會的決議要過半數然後三分之一就有否決權所以你的愚民你的什麼你根本不用到那麼多人你只要有三分之一你就有否決權了"},{"start":5123.001,"end":5143.44,"text":"那我真的是覺得說有否決權夠了啊不然齁你裡面啊漁民要三分之一像張偉碩的原住民要三分之一我覺得那這樣子代表性也怪怪的我是覺得應該是要看大家受損害的比例嘛我就剛剛講了說其實是漁民團體是佔最多的對我知道"},{"start":5143.66,"end":5153.4,"text":"那當然其他的團體我並不是說沒有而是說照這個比例來說我覺得應該是移民團體上最多我的意思是說徐委員如果以他們這樣你有三分之一了就有否決權了"},{"start":5155.384,"end":5155.944,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":5186.426,"end":5186.686,"text":"審查委員會長"},{"start":5203.009,"end":5228.287,"text":"其他民間團體的部分像我們目前的野生動物諮詢委員會也會邀請漁業相關專家所以我想剛剛委員最關心是漁民權益這塊漁業署那邊至少會有一票那剛提到專家的部分其實我們要漁業專家他們其實也會就漁民可能影響的經濟去做評估所以我相信到時候其實漁民不會只有在右邊的三分之一其實其他的部分還是會涵蓋到請我們主委"},{"start":5232.582,"end":5257.927,"text":"大會報告我們因為考慮到大家對於漁業還有對於原住民傳統海域的關心所以當時有提出一個建議的版本就是說我們原住民跟漁業的部分其實如果只要"},{"start":5258.643,"end":5274.151,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件, 其中一人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件,"},{"start":5275.774,"end":5300.426,"text":"所以我們希望就是說主管機關是因為政府是負責的單位我們把所有的法律案拿出來看全國就只有三十幾個法律在討論這種審議會的百分比其中只有一部法律是三分之二多數決"},{"start":5302.227,"end":5326.253,"text":"內部法律就是環境影響評估法。環境影響評估法規定非官方三分之二,只有唯一一部非官方三分之二是環境影響評估法。因為環境影響評估法是民間的力量在監督政府主導的開發案。"},{"start":5327.953,"end":5343.379,"text":"所以他用民間的代表三分之二是因為這個法律結構權責是因為這樣就是民間要去監督政府拿出來的開發案所以環境影響評估法是唯一那其他的"},{"start":5344.511,"end":5359.409,"text":"非官方的代表都是不得少於二分之一所以這一點我們很希望就是說我們維持這個法律的秩序權責在政府該負責的部分我們就用二分之一但是我們願意用三分之二多數決"},{"start":5360.811,"end":5367.454,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案：立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12"},{"start":5387.302,"end":5407.561,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":5410.032,"end":5425.543,"text":"結構又完全不一樣,必須重新考量回到一般多數,不處理三分之二多數的部分。所以這個二分之一裡面漁民要佔多少比例,我想應該是我們討論的重點。現在設計的就是原住民、漁民團體,"},{"start":5434.442,"end":5440.11,"text":"總人數,我們是不得少於總人數的三分之一。其實加起來就已經有否決權了?"},{"start":5442.193,"end":5442.313,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":5472.673,"end":5485.963,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":5495.246,"end":5521.756,"text":"謝謝,謝謝我們主委的說明。好,我們請議政委員。對,我想剛剛主委有說過,大概他的目前的想法,那但是我想我們上次辦了六場公聽會,你們應該有充分的聽到,就是漁民跟漁業團體,他們的這個想法。他們還是覺得說,依照以往的經驗的話,因為可能這個,我們現在也不曉得審議會到底有多少人,三分之一的比例到底是多少。"},{"start":5522.296,"end":5542.93,"text":"那根據這樣的狀況來說的話變成說到時候他們事實上不見得能夠真正的去針對他們這個這個我們核心區的這個屁股區的畫社能夠表充分的表達意見那所以這部分的話為什麼說希望說漁民能夠占三分之一其實是因為他們就是一個這個受損害最嚴重的一個團體"},{"start":5543.931,"end":5570.901,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":5574.091,"end":5575.332,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":5591.272,"end":5610.682,"text":"所以假設我們去算的話在目前的我模擬的不同情況之下其實漁民都可以具有相對否決權的意思就剛提的主委已經很詳細的說明他的三分之一的比例搭配其他機關以及剛提到漁業單位跟原住民的官方代表實際上如果這個案子真的會影響到他們權益的話實際上他們具有否決權"},{"start":5613.664,"end":5619.587,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案：立法院第11屆第1會期內政委會議長鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭楠麗 、鄭"},{"start":5642.45,"end":5665.215,"text":"好 謝謝我請教一下那個現在那個對我就要問這個就是你們那個審議委員會有沒有預計一個人數是多少因為你如果要把它算清楚說到底會有多少人然後實際上會議運行會長什麼樣子的話那是我們要先知道審議會的人數因為審議會的人數是30個人跟15個人跟11個人我想都會有一些落差"},{"start":5666.656,"end":5690.571,"text":"人數預計多少,先做個說明,大概在釐清的時候比較清楚,以上。好,謝謝我們牛先天委員。其實我們這個比例,像我們黃婕委員啊,她還是代表環保團體啊,環保團體她也要一定的名額啊,這真的我們行政單位真的也是有行政單位的難處啦。"},{"start":5691.994,"end":5720.592,"text":"好,那我們大家看那個字幕,我們大家看一下好不好。好,我們這邊跟昭偉海委員說明一下,我們模擬如果從15個人到31個人,最左邊那一欄,從15個人往下到31個人的話,官方代表二分之一,那中間看到我們把原名跟餘名三分之一特別列出來,就是如果是15人的話,原名跟餘名是三分之一,是五個人。那後面,整個表往後面看提到,"},{"start":5723.271,"end":5738.859,"text":"後面就有算到可以表決的人數跟同意人數的話實際上他的否決門檻我們就看15個人剛剛提到原民跟漁民是5個人否決門檻也是5個人所以換句話說他們就具有否決權那我們再往下看假設到31個人的話所以這邊看到如果是31個人的比例去算因為要超過三分之一達三分之一所以漁民跟原住民會是11個人"},{"start":5749.844,"end":5770.476,"text":"那再往右邊看那照這個比例看你要通過三二決的話基本上11個人可以有否決權其實我們有精算過照這個比例來看其實加起來都可以具有否決權那的確就是反過來看其實在中間專家保育團體加起來的人數大概最多就是5個人"},{"start":5780.895,"end":5802.476,"text":"其實是,其實是漁民跟原住民某種程度其實也具有相當的主導性,其實蠻高的,跟其他所有法律比較起來。那我想這個喔,這個部分既然大家都還目前沒有共識嘛,是不是可以先保留,好的?好嗎?好,那我們第七案就保留,好不好?第七條。好,謝謝。"},{"start":5809.598,"end":5809.939,"text":"審查委員長"},{"start":5832.042,"end":5843.058,"text":"好那我們現在就處理第8條第8條有修正動議有高精素美我們的召委還有吳立華委員習以貞委員好"},{"start":5848.38,"end":5873.741,"text":"第八條的部分也是針對有關我的修正動議是針對中央主管機關劃定海岸庇護區之後應會同有關機關及原住民機關及漁會然後後下下面的這個修正動議就是說刊登在政府公報新聞指全國性漁會的刊物網際網路及其他適當的方法廣泛周知好"},{"start":5876.18,"end":5879.488,"text":"來各位委員還有沒什麼意見好我們洪森漢委員"},{"start":5883.918,"end":5911.881,"text":"我有讀了徐真委員的條文我其實是想跟徐仁丹討論一件事情就坦白說我自己覺得我們自己在這裡面看到的狀況是說覺得對於漁民跟原住民族的權益我們一定要盡力的保障這沒有問題可是其實海上在海域裡面其實比漁民跟原住民族更強勢的我必須坦白說我認為是經濟部跟交通部"},{"start":5914.552,"end":5932.465,"text":"經濟部跟交通部包括航道包括等等等這些事情其實他們的甚至在海域上面是更強勢的我自己是覺得說可能居然在想的是說對於漁民的保障或者是什麼的"},{"start":5933.342,"end":5954.604,"text":"那但是如果對相關部會每個都一定要會同的時候其實反而更大的力量反而是這些經濟交通的部門反而是產生一個更大的力量的點這跟我們一開始想的只是單純去想說要保障漁民或者是原住民族反而"},{"start":5956.368,"end":5967.278,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":5980.19,"end":6000.255,"text":"我是覺得盡量是可以用會商讓他有權就是一方面讓海委會跟海保署有一個處理的權責他們要負責 重點他們要負責第二件事情是對於漁民跟原住民族有一個明確的保障但反倒不一定是把其他部會全部都很硬的綁進來這是我自己的建議啦好 謝謝 謝謝黃審判委員來 現在請我們行政單位來做回覆"},{"start":6010.613,"end":6029.724,"text":"委員報告,剛剛提到有關於匯商的部分,我們原本的條文是匯商有關機關。那因為基本上法律用於匯商,就是匯商相關的公部門,那就比較不會把漁會放在裡面。那特別剛剛黃委員也提到,其實我們在前面審議會跟蠻多條文都有照顧到漁民跟漁會的權益。"},{"start":6031.005,"end":6054.455,"text":"一方面漁會的意見也可以透過主管機關比如農業部漁業署去反映所以我們建議會商的部分就會商有關機關那後面提到關於公開計畫刊登於政府公報信用紙等等那這邊謝謝委員特別提出了把中華民國全國性的一個漁會刊物列進去那這被我們建議說因為它是特定的刊物"},{"start":6054.855,"end":6075.193,"text":"是不是我們可以用附帶決議的方式把這個刊物列進去那而後我們還是會不交辦理這個部分全國性的漁會刊物並沒有限定是哪個對全國性的漁會刊物並沒有限定說是哪一個哪一個刊物它就是全因為其實你就是希望能夠讓讓漁民都很了解對所以說是不是可以把這個部分其實我想這不是"},{"start":6076.474,"end":6102.628,"text":"只是多增加一個宣傳的管道而已啦這個部分我們可以去做沒有問題那我們建議說是把它放在一個是放在立法說明另外一個是可以用附帶決議都可以清楚的表達那如果直接放在這裡的話讓你們就多一個宣傳的這個刊物其實我想應該應該不是什麼這麼自愛難行的地方吧法務部對啊這樣是不是請法務部的同仁可以幫我們說明一下"},{"start":6111.237,"end":6115.003,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":6131.715,"end":6157.984,"text":"主席、各位委員、與會的各位先進。針對徐委員提議在當中偵測全國性與會刊物的部分,因為它的定義上其實是可以難光在目前列舉的所有項目裡頭,原則上不會特別來標出來,在立法體力上比較不會特別把它弄出來。就好像剛剛有緣住民權益的保護一樣,"},{"start":6161.117,"end":6188.203,"text":"難掛在裡面可以處理的我們就不會特別把它提出來那如果委員覺得特別重要我們在立法體力上有另外一種處理方式是把它定在立法理由裡面做說明或是剛剛有提到附帶決議的方式建議他們要把它偵測在裡頭那這個東西其實不會造成作業上的困難可是在整個立法體力上會比較簡潔一般的立法體力上如果已經含掛在這個概念裡頭的東西不太會特別挑出來定在裡頭"},{"start":6189.168,"end":6196.996,"text":"那對這邊對委員的這個用意至表佩服不在法治基礎上或許可以再考慮有沒有其他的替代方案以上說明"},{"start":6206.158,"end":6215.446,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":6229.591,"end":6249.245,"text":"我們這個部分基本上是用會商我的意思是說既然會商有關機關其實就會跟我們報告會商有關機關就會報告漁業單位跟漁業機關不是因為會商跟會同還是不一樣嘛所以我這邊當然希望說就是要會同對就是漁政機關我們這邊請漁政機關請漁業署的組長也說明這個部分好來業主那個"},{"start":6258.26,"end":6276.175,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進,有關漁業署這邊做一個報告,那有關這個會商、會同的部分,事實上會同的部分就是有一個這個權責的,等於說這漁業單位的這個權責的,有會同的部分等於涉及到其他單位的權責,那因為海洋庇護區的部分,因為主要是這一個"},{"start":6277.844,"end":6299.453,"text":"海委會所劃設的權責是屬於這個海委會的部分那如果說有會商這一個會同與證單位的話也會覺得這個權責上面會有一些的呃出現一些的競合的問題所以我們吼這邊還是建議吼海用會商的方式當然會商的部分他這個海委會在劃這個庇護區的時候或者降換企劃的時候一定會我們會跟真真"},{"start":6300.474,"end":6308.286,"text":"在詢問這個與會或漁民團體的意見之後我們會將意見提供給這個海委會那也會做一個強力的在一個計畫的討論當中將意見做一些表達以上"},{"start":6315.621,"end":6325.745,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":6331.167,"end":6339.709,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":6351.072,"end":6371.817,"text":"張宏祿委員我個人的看法是覺得如果用會同你把農業部變成深色其中了反而不好替漁民去講話因為你要化保育區但是我們的漁民是要去抓魚的這個是兩個不同的概念"},{"start":6372.757,"end":6388.426,"text":"所以如果這樣子會統那農業部是要會統去劃保育區還是他要提供他說反對我反對你劃保育區所以我會覺得說會統反而農業部不好處理事情"},{"start":6389.429,"end":6414.947,"text":"應該是說在化社保這個庇護區的時候,比較知道就能夠充分的了解漁民的需求啊。區委員不好意思,化社保育區的時候,那時候我們第6條就處理了,第6條就處理了會同,第6條我們都支持會同,在化社的那一部分,但是這第8條這個部分我會真的覺得會商會比會同好,因為農業部要有他的立場,"},{"start":6416.246,"end":6417.649,"text":"六條,大家的步驟都一樣。"},{"start":6429.041,"end":6447.587,"text":"因為在定計劃的時候就是相對的重要嘛對 我知道就在定計劃的時候其實就相對的要必須充分的了解嘛所以我們都會會商會商 會商既然第6條大家都可以用這個會同的話是不是這條也是一樣可以用會同的方式好 請出位"},{"start":6450.678,"end":6458.903,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":6469.41,"end":6481.563,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":6487.607,"end":6494.869,"text":"19條因為是談富裕跟放流有卡到漁業部門所以19條有卡到所以19條用會同除了這兩條以外原住民的部分兩條現在已經在第4至1處理了剩下的6條包括現在討論的這一條"},{"start":6508.453,"end":6508.573,"text":"委員會議委員會議員"},{"start":6524.087,"end":6537.857,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":6541.079,"end":6557.106,"text":"現在的四之一是處理原來的七跟八,就是除了這四條以外的那六條,必須按照法律的秩序,就是它沒有卡到白的機關,你如果去會堂,我舉例,制定這個保育計畫要開的會,不知道幾百個會,"},{"start":6565.232,"end":6572.567,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、一、二、"},{"start":6575.291,"end":6585.377,"text":"我現在說好我保育計劃今天要討論某一個主題,這個主題要來發會議通知或是要決定邀請的對象,要發會議通知,都要會同,我們要多個行政程序,真的沒辦法頂當,政府的機器沒辦法頂當,所以才有法治序,"},{"start":6604.088,"end":6614.156,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":6626.934,"end":6630.177,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員"},{"start":6651.482,"end":6667.616,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝我們主委我們席委員所以剛剛真的因為行政單位有行政單位的難處太多單位的話當然就會在執行上會有所以說我這邊就堅持說好那邊就是會與政單位就是這樣會與政單位"},{"start":6674.628,"end":6675.969,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":6697.585,"end":6725.406,"text":"第八條因為中央主管機關畫定海洋庇護期後要擬定海洋庇護期的保育計畫所以是針對這個保育計畫針對這個保育計畫所以這個海洋委員會其實不用太擔心"},{"start":6726.86,"end":6747.615,"text":"因為都是政府機關,這裏面已經沒有人民團體也沒有移民什麼,都是政府機關。幾個例子,你這個保育計劃基本上你就海洋委員會,你就要找這個農業部,也就是一夜暑,然後園民會。"},{"start":6749.264,"end":6760.809,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":6775.758,"end":6789.795,"text":"舉例下可能還有包含了哪些機關政府機關之間就好談啦其實是好談啦以上好 謝謝我們鄭天才委員我們各位委員還有什麼意見好 紅色藍委員"},{"start":6798.848,"end":6827.277,"text":"應該說過去其實在很多立法的體力裡面會同跟會商有一個差別一個會同的差別是說你這個部會有這個業務我這個部會也有很相近的業務因為你也跟這件事情你有這個業務我也有這個業務所以你對這件事情有責任我對這件事情有責任所以我們要會同那另外會商是你可能你的業務跟這事情有關聯所以我們不要再產生漢格"},{"start":6828.479,"end":6854.03,"text":"就不要你的工作計畫你在某些工作計畫裡面跟我的中國計畫產生政府跟政府行政上面的漢格所以用會商就不要漢格可是會同變成是那就變成是這個漁業署他也有海洋保育計畫的責任可是事實上在漁業署裡面並沒有這樣子他的法定的在他的法定的這個組織法裡面並沒有這個東西"},{"start":6857.029,"end":6872.424,"text":"問題是這件事情所以如果你也有你也有這個業務的目標的目標的話那大家應該來會同這是有道理的可是你其實沒有這個你只是你在執行業務的時候跟我會有關聯但不要產生漢格所以會用會商"},{"start":6874.758,"end":6894.676,"text":"其實在這個使用文字的體力上面大概有一個這個事情的區別所以如果是要把其他的給放進來會同的話除非是那些部會他也有海洋保育的法定權責可是你看他的法裡面並沒有啊主要是這件事情啦我們休息差不多"},{"start":6903.375,"end":6927.844,"text":"現在我們休息三分鐘由我們海洋委員會跟以貞大家溝通一下吧我補充一個就好就是說請委員們放心這種保育計畫其實我們行之多年滿成熟的沒有需要會同的問題那會商絕對沒問題譬如說我們的白海豚保育計畫就是"},{"start":6931.311,"end":6954.413,"text":"余業單位就是會商,我們一定會邀來一起討論,但是權責就是海委會。執行的結果,現在漁民都變成我們的好夥伴,一起投入白海豚的保育。常常漁民看到白海豚媽媽帶著白海豚的孩子,都覺得好幸運,今天又看到了。"},{"start":6955.054,"end":6962.976,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例"},{"start":6988.972,"end":7014.017,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":7032.671,"end":7043.344,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":7062.538,"end":7082.295,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、八、七、"},{"start":7087.398,"end":7101.832,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":7102.398,"end":7119.182,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":7133.477,"end":7157.497,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":7163.985,"end":7189.855,"text":"2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":7189.855,"end":7211.675,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":7216.049,"end":7232.904,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":7236.72,"end":7256.371,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":7258.133,"end":7273.406,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":7276.148,"end":7276.168,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":7297.397,"end":7297.417,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":7326.436,"end":7339.789,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":7350.157,"end":7355.701,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":7372.739,"end":7398.709,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":7409.445,"end":74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、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":8094.341,"end":8100.086,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":8101.523,"end":8127.711,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐"},{"start":8130.134,"end":8157.712,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、"},{"start":8160.213,"end":8180.347,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":8184.411,"end":8208.347,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":8208.387,"end":8238.194,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":8242.056,"end":8261.794,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":8277.419,"end":8299.908,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":8301.49,"end":8309.126,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":8330.657,"end":8352.955,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":8353.524,"end":8380.535,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":8384.974,"end":8406.246,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":8413.729,"end":8420.879,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":8440.47,"end":8458.796,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":8468.882,"end":8477.488,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":8483.558,"end":8509.086,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":8512.843,"end":8537.85,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":8544.246,"end":8566.013,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":8572.295,"end":8590.641,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":8592.725,"end":8621.331,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":8626.905,"end":8652.879,"text":"好,我們針對第8條。來,我們習以正、習委員。好,第8條,有沒有意見?那所以,剛剛講的是希望說這個部分是要用會商嗎?因為其實會商就可以達到相關的這個這個徵詢的一個意見了,然後來釘釘這個計劃嗎?OK好,那這部分的話,OK好。"},{"start":8655.265,"end":8678.432,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯"},{"start":8679.64,"end":8707.052,"text":"最後一項三詞了。好,那我們第8條就修正通過了。好,謝謝。好,現在進行第9條。我們第9條修正動議,我們高津召委。那召委已經不堅持了,那照行政院版通過。好,謝謝。"},{"start":8713.4,"end":8720.322,"text":"12條修正動議委員提出修正動議議員提出修正動議議員提出修正動議議員提出修正動議議員提出修正動議"},{"start":8738.191,"end":8767.27,"text":"白色,白色,白色這一本,第16頁。對,就是也是一樣,就是這一條的話是針對那個嘛,申請許可、作業費值跟希望能夠會同有關單位定職嘛,因為剛剛原住民的部分他們已經不堅持了嘛,對。對,那就是有關。那就照驗版。就照驗版嘛,就是。"},{"start":8769.032,"end":8780.898,"text":"審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":8799.386,"end":8810.349,"text":"第四月、第十六月、第二十三月、行政院判一百二十七月。"},{"start":8818.61,"end":8819.51,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":8841.937,"end":8856.95,"text":"第四項就是休閒採捕海洋生物其使用採捕方法、採捕物種、體長、數量、泛舟之限制、禁止或其他應遵循的部分。這個指的是說我們一些就是休閒的……第23頁對"},{"start":8859.472,"end":8882.791,"text":"這指的是說我們一些休閒的魚這個去釣魚的這些漁民他的這個他所捕獲的海洋生物要我們要對他採捕的方法物種體長數量跟販售的禁止因為有些現在有些休閒的他們自己來釣魚他們也是會去銷售而且可能針對一些還在保育的東西或者說數量跟一些他的這個大小"},{"start":8883.131,"end":8888.174,"text":"委員提到那條針對休閒、油氣、釣魚的管理,我們之前有考慮過,所以請委員看一下其實在第一個關於海洋、油氣或休閒活動之限制,我們這邊其實有提到油氣跟休閒。"},{"start":8908.846,"end":8937.243,"text":"那特別在第三條的與海洋使用財普器具之限制禁止或其他應遵行事項的我們就可以做到岡委員加的那一條那一項關於休閒財普海洋生物使用的方法、物種、體長、數量跟相關的限制禁止跟其他應遵行事項其實在第一項跟第三項都可以達到這個目的那有需要加強的話我們想提一個建議是不是我們可以在後面立法說明的部分把它寫得比較完整"},{"start":8937.743,"end":8957.2,"text":"因為這個部分你海洋遊氣跟休閒活動那可能是類似指的是波特船那種我現在講的這個第四點的話主要是針對這個釣客就是休閒釣客他因為他雖然他因為他沒受到規範嘛所以他有可能會去販售有可能會增加就是比如說他捕到的這個魚是其實是有"},{"start":8957.5,"end":8966.753,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":8977.028,"end":8998,"text":"跟委員在補充說明就像剛剛提到你提到休閒釣魚所以第一項我們特別把休閒兩個字擺進去就是想包括其實不光要釣魚還有各式各樣的休閒活動那第三項也提到采捕器具這采捕器具其實釣剛剛提到釣魚器具就是就是屬於一種采捕器具那目前我們在第一項跟第三項可以做到第四項"},{"start":8999.04,"end":9014.763,"text":"財普方法、財普物種、體長、數量、販售之禁止。 可以包括在限制禁止跟其他應遵行事項之內都可以。 所以你要那個嗎?你要把它增加到你的第三項嗎?"},{"start":9014.763,"end":9022.605,"text":"我們可以把它加在立法說明裡面,把這些放在立法說明。 那直接加上這條的話有什麼問題嗎?"},{"start":9022.605,"end":9027.206,"text":"其實跟目前的會稍微有點重複到。 那目前的條文其實可以達到這個目的。"},{"start":9027.923,"end":9033.817,"text":"應該就是把它比較說明得更清楚就是把它針對這個部分說明得更清楚"},{"start":9037.318,"end":9062.675,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我一開始看到這個許委員版本的時候我也覺得非常有道理因為確實時至今日這個第四項提到的事項真的是我們大家常常會見看到的也會使用到的不過現在聽這個我們行政機關說明後我確實是覺得可能會在原有的院版的第一項和第三項和現在許委員提的第四項確實是會有一點點"},{"start":9065.27,"end":9078.994,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查"},{"start":9093.339,"end":9109.492,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":9126.919,"end":9141.813,"text":"謝謝委員這個部分如果寫在條文裡面確實就跟第一項第三項等就重複了那如果說要寫在立法說明那現在草案的立法說明我們也認為說"},{"start":9143.755,"end":9161.953,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案 案件,並非立法說明的事項,所以我們就一起來改寫。」審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件,並非立法說明的事項,所以我們就一起來改寫。」審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件,並非立法說明的事項,所以我們就一起來改寫。」審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案件,並非立法說明的事項,"},{"start":9165.035,"end":9190.265,"text":"對,所以反而是寫出來,反而就變成現在是可以的喔,會有那個問題。我們現在是不可以販售,但實際上是有販售嗎?對不對?我知道的狀況是這樣啊,實際上是有。對,所以不必寫,我們都可以,不必寫出來,我們都可以去限制。根據第一款,我們也可以去限制。但是寫出來反而是讓現狀合法化。"},{"start":9191.63,"end":9195.995,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":9197.022,"end":9197.943,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人"},{"start":9228.906,"end":9247.145,"text":"對,我們可以在立法說明上寫,但是現在就是說是不是百分之百文字就有這兩個字的部分。是不是麻煩那個,謝、謝父。"},{"start":9258.47,"end":9259.411,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進法務部這邊針對法治上的意見來做一個說明"},{"start":9282.072,"end":9304.683,"text":"首先,其實在13條的一款裡面,它針對海洋游青學習活動的限制、禁止跟其他遵行事項,其實它的涵括範圍是夠大的。那徐委員剛剛提出的這個疑慮,我覺得這個疑慮很好,那對海洋保育也很有幫助,可是事實上以法治基礎上來講,不需要去動到一款就可以處理了。"},{"start":9306.504,"end":9330.883,"text":"如果委員覺得說有特語強調的必要的話或許在立法紀錄上的簡潔需要是不是有可能用什麼適當的形式呈現在這後面的立法說明裡面那另外因為如果把他放在販售之限制這樣的連用的話因為限制原則上是指說原則上是許可但例外的有些狀況我不准你這叫限制"},{"start":9331.443,"end":9353.573,"text":"所以如果文字的連用會造成所謂的販售之限制的話那其實好像會在立法目前好像是說其實立法者是同意是可以販售的只是有些例外那所以你建議怎麼做修改呢在立法的因為事實上委員您所擔心的東西其實在目前的一款跟三款的立法文字上以法制上來講是可以含設在這個文一設成範圍之內的"},{"start":9355.013,"end":9371.599,"text":"所以如果委員認為說還是不放心有要特別在強化說明的必要的話那可能是比較適合放在立法理由裡面去做細節的說明不用去動到文字也沒有關係因為委員擔心的狀況事實上可以依現行的文字去處理"},{"start":9372.347,"end":9395.746,"text":"我同意放在立法說明啦那只是說這個部分的文字是不是可以就是照著我這個版本這樣那至於剛剛講的販售之限制的部分的話那你有沒有建議用什麼樣的方式來呈現因為這是我剛剛提到食物的一個問題嘛這個牽涉到文字上的用法牽涉到委員以及海委會這邊想要追求的目的是什麼如果是當然有共識其實是要"},{"start":9396.727,"end":9417.902,"text":"禁止犯獸的話其實就不要用到犯獸的限制這樣的字眼這會有一個誤導你們為什麼都不能直接明確一點說呢為什麼都要照來照去大家可以審查速度加快一點嗎比如說那現在這邊的話就是這一條大家已經都同意了吧連徐委員都同意就是要放到立法理由那你也覺得是OK了那我們就朝這個方向進行那進行的狀況現在是犯獸的限制這幾個字有問題那是不是比如說我們就乾脆犯獸的限制這五個字就不要寫"},{"start":9423.166,"end":9433.752,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、"},{"start":9449.352,"end":9468.574,"text":"對嘛,那我們希望法治局上來就是可以直接進入到這一段嘛,就不要再講前面了。好,那如果這樣的話,那許委員你是否同意這樣,即使用裁補方式、遁號、裁補物種遁號、體長遁號、數量之限制遁號禁止或其他應遵循事項。"},{"start":9470.213,"end":9471.534,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":9488.008,"end":9516.229,"text":"這個部分就是說現狀有什麼缺失然後希望主管機關要善加管理因為現狀就是說漁民他一定要有條件有被允許因為是許可制嘛才可以採捕販售嘛但是其他有諸多的漁業行為卻反而不必嘛那現狀的這一些亂象或者是什麼要求主管機關在那個法律實施之後"},{"start":9517.409,"end":9541.464,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":9544.65,"end":9560.201,"text":"好的,那第四三條我們徐議政委員所提的在修正動議新訂第四款部分列入立法說明請海委會趕快審理送來本會還有附帶決議"},{"start":9566.988,"end":9567.008,"text":"請審議委員會議記錄"},{"start":9577.136,"end":9578.897,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":9603.141,"end":9610.266,"text":"審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":9636.997,"end":9664.978,"text":"好,第第14條我們是政委員要不要做補充說明。第14條的部分我是針對在調查機關、法人、團體或保育人員進行調查或實施各項保育措施應該客尊正當的法律程序以符合比例原則之方式為之。先加這個部分。好。"},{"start":9666.797,"end":9685.589,"text":"來,請我們行政單位說明。好,呃,跟單位報告。這邊提到,剛剛徐委員建議增加進行調查或實施各項保育措施,應可遵正當法律程序以符合比例原則之方式為之。這個部分,呃,我們可以接受。好,可以接受,啊。徐委員。"},{"start":9686.725,"end":9715.545,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件、詐欺犯罪案件"},{"start":9721.119,"end":9724.963,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":9742.42,"end":9755.791,"text":"現在進行第19條有高津委員做的修正動議還有徐宇珍委員修正動議在我們的第4月及第17月"},{"start":9769.833,"end":9773.938,"text":"十九條,徐議政委員,修正動議做說明。"},{"start":9780.403,"end":9801.299,"text":"主席19條的主委有說會同同意跟他在乎這個同意而已這樣會同就過了剛剛第19條說同意嘛用會同同意這條我們同意可以修正那原住民機關那個就不用了"},{"start":9805.435,"end":9808.076,"text":"審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查"},{"start":9821.671,"end":9829.896,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":9849.219,"end":9866.334,"text":"對,這條會同我們可以接受對,我們跟漁業署討論過我們可以接受然後納入漁會我們也可以這個跟那個第四條之一不一樣啊這個是"},{"start":9872.281,"end":9875.263,"text":"海洋生物復育措施"},{"start":9895.584,"end":9907.869,"text":"跟政委員補充報告,其實這一條涉及到後面相關罰則的部分,上次其實高清委員也有提案,就是有增加一段關於援助民主有需要的話基本上就可以同意。"},{"start":9915.387,"end":9934.014,"text":"我們上次有增加一個就是說如果是原住民基於傳統文化寄以生活所需之保育行為不在此限就上一次通過的條文上一次上一次講的啦上一次通過第24條上一次通過第24條上一次通過第24條"},{"start":9942.813,"end":9969.122,"text":"就是上一次通過的版本那那個版本的罰則是提到如果有一般民眾沒有經過許可去做復育放留的話會有罰則那上次已經增列了關於就是如果違反這項但是是因為原住民基於傳統文化、基於生活所需就不在此限、不會受到限制對啦這一條這是上一次通過的所以今天的資料沒有在裡面"},{"start":9972.85,"end":9998.242,"text":"原住民基於傳統文化這點行為會受損保育行為不再受限主席讓你猜拳啦這樣對我們原住民的權利都會非常有保障的那第19條先讓我們的文字修訂吧"},{"start":10007.787,"end":10028.116,"text":"第十九條就照修正通過。第十九條就照修正通過。第十九條就照修正通過。第十九條就照修正通過。第十九條就照修正通過。第十九條就照修正通過。"},{"start":10034.393,"end":10053.213,"text":"現在我們處理第20條有習以珍委員、楊瓊英委員還有黃潔委員提出的修正動議習以珍委員在第18月楊瓊英委員沒有到我們就不處理黃潔委員24月"},{"start":10058.137,"end":10083.713,"text":"因為原本院版的在犯的這個賀阻力他是版本是一年那我在想說是不是可以提高為三年讓他有一個更強力的賀阻力我的想法是這樣啦沒有啊就是三年內在犯就是讓他被受管制的時間更長的意思"},{"start":10088.14,"end":10088.4,"text":"二十條是罰則嗎?"},{"start":10103.861,"end":10118.592,"text":"我的部分的話大概就是希望能夠降低罰款到新台幣1萬元以上20萬元以下那漁業從業人如果誤入海洋庇護區的核心區且無重大違規請事經勸導使離後不予處罰請行政單位一併做回答"},{"start":10133.286,"end":10134.546,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":10157.894,"end":10180.73,"text":"入入進入核心區但經勸導後不離開的話才會進行處分那第三項就是增列到考量到他是不是累犯這件事情所以我們的文字是入入海洋庇護區之核心區且最近一年曾經勸導又再犯但增列這三項去避免可能有一些因為不清楚而導致誤入那罰則的部分我們有調降"},{"start":10193.004,"end":10197.846,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":10219.819,"end":10220.48,"text":"來 主席 主席 我覺得吼 你這個下線5萬"},{"start":10235.407,"end":10235.888,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":10255.358,"end":10279.629,"text":"對,因為這個部分就是針對就是一些,說實在比較容易被處罰到的,就是真的在海上從事捕魚的這些運營。好,我們松巧會回言。好,我剛剛看到行政單位是已經同意把這個我們的地板從10萬條降到5萬,但是天花板50還是維持。我倒是覺得這個方案是大家可以斟酌考慮一下的。為什麼呢?"},{"start":10281.67,"end":10281.89,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":10303.462,"end":10303.482,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、36、37、40、40、41、42、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":10329.39,"end":10346.079,"text":"懲截惡意的、重大的我們還是有個天花板50我覺得這樣是不是社會兩邊我們其實都可以做一個交代等於是我們把裁量的範圍擴大那我們也是希望那在這個到時候裁量的時候這種尤其我們現在又加了一個勿入的這種"},{"start":10348.24,"end":10353.785,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件。 請審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件。 請審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件。"},{"start":10375.924,"end":10379.79,"text":"跟大會報告現在這裡面的文字"},{"start":10382.162,"end":10403.88,"text":"漏掉了那個誤入不罰所以結構上出了這個問題現在是譬如說第一款只要進入海洋庇護區的核心區就要罰了第二款突然跑出一個誤入因為我們沒有講誤入不罰所以突然跑出來一個誤入誤入勸導後不離開要罰"},{"start":10409.344,"end":10435.665,"text":"但是第一款是只要進入就罰啦對,所以這個文字有問題我們可能需要來改寫一下好不好我原來寫的就是那個嘛,就是雨夜重演人若誤入海洋庇護區的核心區且無重大違規,經勸導駛離者不處罰對啊對,那第三第三跟第一第三款跟第一款其實也等於"},{"start":10436.826,"end":10464.271,"text":"有規定沒規定因為誤入勸導後不離開就要罰了那他不管你是一年內第幾次依照第二款誤入勸導不離開就得罰然後第三款再去說一年內勸導又再犯也要罰那是罰兩個嗎不是啊只罰一個啊那只罰一個就是第二款已經罰啦所以這個是語意結構出問題啦我想我們技術上改寫一下我寫的這個修正動議來對啊"},{"start":10466.632,"end":10492.729,"text":"因為海洋又不是像道路一樣有劃線沒有劃線看不到線所以第一盤一定不要進入海洋屁股區之核心區水質跟一般道路不一樣一定是要誤入之後嵌倒才開始做處罰"},{"start":10496.362,"end":10520.672,"text":"好 謝謝等一下我們海洋委員會我們防潔的一年條升到三年這一點也要做補充報告那個就是第二款如果只留第二款的文字的話其實就是沒有違理啦海洋沒有違理還又犯的話就對啊就要罰的意思嘛所以其實如果只留第二款一跟三就不用了"},{"start":10522.29,"end":10549.816,"text":"反正就是有勸導的機會但是如果勸導你還是沒有離開就罰你就這樣一跟三我覺得就不用了應該是這個意思看要不要只留第二款是這樣嗎來各位針對我們防潔委員所提出的一至三連用什麼對啊因為說實在如果只有第二款來來來做說明第三款就也不用那個年限了基宇臻委員的提出的我們趕快做說明這樣喔"},{"start":10552.66,"end":10564.35,"text":"剛剛就是說有下列情形之一者處罰啦所以就文字上的結構是這樣的話就沒有問題我剛剛沒有看到這一句話那只要這三種之中任何一種就處罰嘛換句話說如果你是誤入不經勸導的要罰然後進入的"},{"start":10579.217,"end":10605.594,"text":"進入的要罰故意所以第一款是屬於故意的故意進來就要罰那第二款如果是誤入我們勸導不離開才罰那第三種是一年內曾經勸導又再犯那現在是黃委員要改成三年那這個部分我們尊重委員會的決議是"},{"start":10608.602,"end":10627.72,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、"},{"start":10632.282,"end":10633.504,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":10649.456,"end":10658.283,"text":"一般的遺傳沒有啦一般的遺傳沒有那個是沿洋一夜才有啦沿洋的遺傳才有一般的遺傳沒有啦"},{"start":10669.771,"end":10674.552,"text":"委員請委員會決定要幾年,然後文字的技術面我們來看。因為第一點就會讓人家覺得進入。"},{"start":10701.358,"end":10701.378,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":10722.823,"end":10743.256,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":10744.036,"end":10759.514,"text":"2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":10760.695,"end":10780.134,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":10781.775,"end":10798.139,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":10811.222,"end":10834.72,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案件、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草"},{"start":10851.351,"end":10863.319,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":10864.639,"end":10864.659,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":10885.272,"end":10912.97,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":10913.951,"end":10943.842,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":10946.664,"end":10966.167,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":10967.312,"end":10994.25,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":10997.807,"end":11002.944,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":11015.617,"end":11023.961,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":11029.224,"end":11050.635,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三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十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":11976.315,"end":12003.166,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":12009.901,"end":12023.735,"text":"二十條,我們現在打在螢幕上,大家看有沒有意見。以琛你看一下,因為罰款已經降低,上限都不變。"},{"start":12031.557,"end":12050.127,"text":"二十條我們就修正通過好不好好黃雪好啊宜貞宜貞委員OK啦好那我們二十條就照修正動力通過好謝謝好現在處理第21條我們高津昭偉"},{"start":12057.422,"end":12074.741,"text":"提修正動議還有徐宇珍委員提修正動議楊瓊瑛沒到我們就不處理好藍高津委員對第21條基本上我對這個政院版沒有意見但是希望後面有一個但書也就是說在海洋庇護區之內的這個緩衝區裡面"},{"start":12077.904,"end":12102.769,"text":"因原住民有時候有非常多的傳統文化尤其是阿美族花東那一代的族人他的記憶所需要利用的行為應該不在此範圍之內好不好就加了這個文字那先說明一下因為我剛剛去講說尤其是阿美族的族人在花東最多他們都會有海洋記憶或者是我們的達烏族有時候他在緩衝區裡面我們講說緩衝區已經蠻近的他會採捕一些"},{"start":12106.71,"end":12118.24,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":12131.852,"end":12134.473,"text":"徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員"},{"start":12160.673,"end":12187.988,"text":"還有我們高金召委所提出的原住民的家族文字在裡面。他增加的單書。應該沒有問題啦,因為我們通過的第24條也是經過我的修正版本嘛,第26條也是基於原住民的傳統介於文化是不罰的。好,我們召委,這樣OK啦。好,我們協議政委員,OK啦。"},{"start":12189.517,"end":12193.885,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":12206.372,"end":12227.002,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":12231.012,"end":12231.973,"text":"二十二條修正動議委員提出修正動議。"},{"start":12250.794,"end":12251.814,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具"},{"start":12279.834,"end":12285.757,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":12308.679,"end":12326.414,"text":"這部分也是罰還的部分那請問那個海委會這邊有修正後的版本嗎這條因為涉及規避妨礙相關的調查跟觀測所以我們建議還是維持院版的2萬元以上10萬元以下罰還謝謝"},{"start":12329.458,"end":12338.584,"text":"主席,我認為今天這個划款,我們都可以提供移民,但一定要考慮移民、考慮法治、法律,根本沒有一個前提的作用,是不是我們今天所討論的要保育海洋的必要性?"},{"start":12359.571,"end":12380.703,"text":"我認為自台灣到現在,今天在想這個法案,我們是要保護海洋的。結果長久以來,破海,我們也受到其他委員的審扣。不過,你如果這樣意見的時候,沒有一個前提,我們說實在,想這個法,也不知道想什麼,我都看不到。真的要台灣好就好了。以上。"},{"start":12390.766,"end":12392.848,"text":"二、三條就照行政院版本通過,好不好?謝謝。"},{"start":12411.834,"end":12426.762,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":12432.648,"end":12449.316,"text":"委員楊瓊英、委員羅廷瑋等提案第34條、委員羅美玲、委員張瑞雄等提案第29條、台灣民眾黨黨團提案第35條及委員賴瑞龍提案第28條、委員吳祺銘提案第29條"},{"start":12461.528,"end":12469.371,"text":"我們這就不予採納大家有沒有意見好沒意見我們就不予採納好謝謝來我們修正動議第29條我們習以貞委員大家放開19頁"},{"start":12485.382,"end":12510.821,"text":"我的宣傳動議是希望這個本法施行細則要由中央主管機關會同有關機關及原住民機關定職。好,謝謝。那我們先在單位做說明。我們在剛剛的條已經說明到會同跟會商的差異。那因為基本上本法的中央主管機關是海委會。所以我們建議維持院版就是本法施行細則由中央主管機關定職即可。"},{"start":12512.553,"end":12512.934,"text":"財政局局長"},{"start":12533.68,"end":12550.147,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、詐欺犯罪案案件、"},{"start":12570.705,"end":12588.026,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位先進針對委員提案要修正29條的部分以法制的角度我們來說明如下其實適應細則它是針對母法本身比較細節性、執行性的東西再去定的"},{"start":12588.649,"end":12612.587,"text":"那這個細則要出來之後,後面才能夠推展,所以其實行能效能上是蠻重要的,而且這是一部有主管機關的法規,除非他的整部法律裡面有很大的部分是跟其他機關高度關聯、高度重疊,核心業務彼此有衝突、重疊的狀況,才會定成是由會同來定定,這是一個比較例外的做法。"},{"start":12613.223,"end":12633.093,"text":"那其實剛剛一路聽下來其實在我們的這個討論之下其實這邊也做了很多條文的修正其實在後面我看相關的授權的法規命令還有實質的法規命令以及一些審議會的組成事實上好像都已經有很多會同的規定那是不是在這邊要做會同我覺得是可以在"},{"start":12633.906,"end":12651.252,"text":"思考的齁,可以再思考的齁,因為這是一個特別的立法的體力齁,有這種立法體力可是這種立法體力只有存在在兩個機關或多個機關的核心業務,在這部法律裡面高度有高度重疊的狀況才會來這樣來做一個制定齁,那以上跟委員報告。好,謝謝我們法務部副市長。好,我們席委員,我們法務部副市長的解釋,"},{"start":12664.412,"end":12664.672,"text":"第七條"},{"start":12690.5,"end":12693.341,"text":"我們請同仁秀一下剛剛第7條的建議修正條文。"},{"start":12714.776,"end":12737.56,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":12743.836,"end":12748.871,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":12763.752,"end":12784.154,"text":"來,我們針對第七條,我們主管單位,好,那我看我們主管單位,再跟他們做溝通,我們休息三分鐘好不好,針對第七條,這唯一的保留條文對我們第七條,那拜託了,"},{"start":12787.466,"en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十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":13321.544,"end":13347.17,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":13350.706,"end":13378.754,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":13381.189,"end":13394.902,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":13395.749,"end":13424.141,"text":"那我講一下好了好 謝謝主席那我們現在開始開會的過程我也跟大家報告一下然後留下一個紀錄謝謝剛剛徐委員徐維珍委員還有黃婕委員高金素美委員那我們大家都一起討論了出來包括在場所有牛委員張委員等等大家共同的意思是說那是不是因為其實今天每個人甚至每個委員甚至每個團體都是希望能夠對海洋保育盡一份心力"},{"start":13424.921,"end":13445.091,"text":"所以大家是共同努力的那剛剛的那個條文徐委員就不堅持願意用大家一起討論出來這個版本再看一次看看是不是可以這樣過但我們要求要做成一個附帶決議就是說把剛剛的精神是大家不管是原住民也好討論很多的原住民團體漁民團體保育團體等等"},{"start":13449.873,"end":13475.921,"text":"都是海洋保育的重要成員大家都齊心保育海洋資源所以為我們目前的法規是定這些人的代表是佔審議會的至少三分之一但這當然希望是不只這樣未來主管機關在甄選代表的時候尤其甚至專家學者等等在盡可能的空間之內都盡量的提高"},{"start":13476.561,"end":13487.269,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":13502.268,"end":13527.499,"text":"目前這邊呈現的是目前我們的建議修正條文。那附帶決議的部分我們現在同仁正在操你。好。那第7條我們就照大家的修正動議通過。然後我們的附帶決議等一下我們就秀出來。我們現在正在理搞吧。謝謝。"},{"start":13531.772,"end":13542.251,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":13550.861,"end":13564.24,"text":"我們現在就先來處理我們的互代決議六案我們現在請先讀我們這六案的互代決議謝謝這是之前的"},{"start":13566.909,"end":13584.514,"text":"附帶決議一、鑒於聯合國生物多樣性公約2022年通過昆明蒙特樓全球生物多樣性框架建議至2030年至少實現30%的土地、內陸、水域、沿海及海洋區域為保護區或其他有效保育措施之區域以及有效賦予全球30%的退化陸地與"},{"start":13586.795,"end":13608.3,"text":"海洋生態系議員建請海洋委員會參照國際趨勢及國內現況積極統合協調相關機關促請海洋保護區之化設或其他有效保育措施區域之認定並定期檢討保育成效以達保護海洋生態環境保育海洋生物多樣性之永續目標逐步與國際目標接軌提案人委員蘇巧慧等3人。"},{"start":13609.5,"end":13634.432,"text":"附帶決議二為確保海洋生物多樣性之保育與輔育之實施效益中央主管機關在擬定海洋庇護區保育計劃時應在明下列事項一計劃範圍目標及規劃圖二海洋生態資源系統與環境之基礎調查及分析三分區規劃及維護管理之規定或措施四財務與人力實施計劃五其他相關事項提案人委員蘇巧慧等五人"},{"start":13635.572,"end":13655.692,"text":"附帶決議三為落實海洋生態環境維護海洋生物多樣性之保育與賦育並促進海洋保護區域之整合規劃及執行中央主管機關因會商有關機關見證海洋保護資料庫與專屬網頁公開前述資料庫與專屬網頁並定期更新之避利相關資料之完備建置與追蹤提案人為蘇曉慧等4人附帶決議四"},{"start":13660.165,"end":13681.982,"text":"海洋保育跟原住民的生活以及傳統文化息息相關,原請海洋委員會會同原住民族委員會與本法通過後辦理之事項如列如下,依三個月內與原住民族地區各縣市辦理至少三場次相關法案說明會,並邀請族人參與積極溝通說明,讓族人瞭解本法的利弊得失以及後續影響,必利族人清楚之息。"},{"start":13682.742,"end":13692.82,"text":"二、後續原住民族地區之相關法案說明會中一族群分部區增加事宜之主與主與宣導人員提案人文高金素美等4人。"},{"start":13694.724,"end":13715.123,"text":"附帶決議五為達成海洋生物多樣性之目標主管機關應採取各種海洋保育措施並直基於科學證據中央主管機關應與本法施行後五年內完成我國海域生態調查並公開之其後每五年進行調查以更新資料提案人委員牛許廷等五人附帶決議六"},{"start":13717.199,"end":13724.243,"text":"一、海洋保育法公布施行後政府應致力於119年以前達成保護至少30%海洋之目標。二、海洋委員會應將生態監測資訊對外公開並於擬定海洋庇護區劃設前應召開公聽會並邀請公民團體利害關係人及在地居民表示意見後再行擬定並送審議會審議以及應接受人民團體關於海洋庇護區劃設之提報。"},{"start":13741.873,"end":13769.432,"text":"三、鑒於海洋委員會海洋保育署組織編制及執法量能有限,仍有賴海洋委員會海巡署提供支援,以達整體海洋保育之縱效,原建請海洋委員會統整所屬海岸巡防機關執行量能,則請海洋保育署規劃海洋保育相關課程,協助相關執法人員接受海洋保育專業課程,課程內容得包含海洋保育知識及巡護,海洋野生動物救援,海洋環境維護,海洋污染防治,違反"},{"start":13770.593,"end":13785.024,"text":"違反案件犯罪偵查、援助民族知識及援助民族生物多樣性等課程總訓練時數至少20小時以上並一定其回訊以確保其專業執法能力提案人委員牛許廷等5人宣讀完畢"},{"start":13791.158,"end":13795.103,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":13810.831,"end":13832.693,"text":"有修正過嗎?沒有啊,都沒有修正過捏。我們方都不是唸修正過的,就是唸最早的提案而已。對。今天有新的提案。不過跟代報,這邊附帶決議四跟七,附帶決議四跟七,高級委員這邊提出來是不是,是有...沒有,七已經有,七已經測案了。七測,我們讀六,一到六而已。"},{"start":13834.515,"end":13834.535,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":13862.808,"end":13877.917,"text":"第四案,他加了這個,這是新的。"},{"start":13880.399,"end":13900.375,"text":"決議第四項決議我們希望可以把三個月改成六個月因為這個場次可能比較多所以在人力安排上面能不能夠讓我們把三個月調成六個月那其他的文字我們可以接受對如果可以的話就是六個月內於濱海原住民族地區六個月六個月"},{"start":13909.684,"end":13928.013,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":13930.401,"end":13954.851,"text":"還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案?還有另外兩案"},{"start":13957.432,"end":13962.518,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、"},{"start":13979.935,"end":13989.417,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃等16人審查委員陳亭妃"},{"start":14005.201,"end":14018.549,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十"},{"start":14025.6,"end":14035.6,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":14038.231,"end":14064.399,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具、「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、"},{"start":14066.762,"end":14085.994,"text":"三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、二、一、三、"},{"start":14095.674,"end":14111.953,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":14116.377,"end":14140.929,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐"},{"start":14145.225,"end":14170.966,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、"},{"start":14172.666,"end":14182.578,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":14189.693,"end":14205.842,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯罪案件事宜、詐欺犯�"},{"start":14217.193,"end":14238.583,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":14241.179,"end":14261.476,"text":"審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具:「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案案件事宜、"},{"start":14265.623,"end":14278.418,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":14289.577,"end":14302.478,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":14309.36,"end":14309.38,"text":"第2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、34、35、36、37、40、40、41、42、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":14346.162,"end":14348.763,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":14361.459,"end":14370.935,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":14379.599,"end":14395.111,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、"},{"start":14396.132,"end":14410.988,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、"},{"start":14414.957,"end":14444.917,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":14444.957,"end":14457.415,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":14480.384,"end":14490.483,"text":"二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、"},{"start":14965.727,"end":14990.722,"text":"好,謝謝。好,那我們現在繼續開會。來,我們附帶決議,我們有兩案,請先讀。附帶決議七,為保育海洋生物資源,管理海域休閒活動,就其休閒財補所或之海洋生物資源之利用,應針對目前無法令規範之亂象,依本法規定之權責,訂定管理規範。提案人委員徐宇貞等六人。"},{"start":14994.403,"end":15020.159,"text":"附帶決議八海洋事務影響範疇多元權益相關者眾多原住民與民保育團體都是達成海洋永續的重要合作夥伴海洋委員會依海洋保育法第七條組成審議會時應以法律規定之組成比例為最低基準再盡可能擴大民間之參與提案人委員徐宇貞等6人宣誓完畢好各位委員那大家有沒有意見沒有好沒意見我們就照案通過"},{"start":15023.483,"en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tart":2478.249,"end":2503.632,"text":"事業在電信管理法施行後已經完成轉軌了並無特許許可而且該五大電信事業的登記都法定義務不宜就惠子特許或許可建立能以裁罰處罰為矣那現今社會的犯罪大幅轉移到網際網路犯罪被害人的範圍也擴大了齁那查其難度也"},{"start":2505.612,"end":2527.783,"text":"增加希望藉由本次的一個本法的一個修正讓犯罪者不能再多在網路的案出四五雞蛋的稅刑犯罪真正伸張被害者可求的司法爭議以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝部長接下來請司法院刑事廳李廳長報告"},{"start":2538.167,"end":2560.938,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進今天貴院司法法制委員會並按審查行政院函請審議的通訊保障部分條文修正草案及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的通訊保障修正草案本院奉邀前來列席深感榮幸這就本次會議與本院業務相關的部分提出意見不下"},{"start":2562.137,"end":2579.118,"text":"本次通保法應會是因應利用網路犯罪的增加修正調取通訊紀錄之要件並增訂保存及調取網路流量紀錄之規定在通訊保障及預防打擊犯罪的目的下應該可以取得一定的成效"},{"start":2579.939,"end":2598.838,"text":"行政院版以及台灣民眾黨版在第三條之一都明確的規定網路流量記錄的定義並在立法理由或是在法條的文本裡面明白的說明哪些記錄是不涉及相關的網路流量記錄是不能涉及通訊內容的"},{"start":2599.81,"end":2619.395,"text":"另外在修正草案的第11條之一行政院還有台灣民眾黨版都有明確的修訂釣取通訊使用者資料通訊記錄及增訂釣取網路流量記錄之相關要件以及所謂釣取票的必要記載事項"},{"start":2620.945,"end":2649.824,"text":"另外有關於行政院主要行政院版跟台灣民眾黨版最大的不同就是台灣民眾黨版對於使用要取通訊使用者的資料去改由檢察官保留那有關政院函請貴院審議以及貴院委員所提出的相關草案那都涉及提案機關相關的政策方向以及貴會委員費心研議的所得本院尊重貴院對相關草案的審議之決定"},{"start":2651.345,"end":2667.854,"text":"那最後本院再次對貴院費金修法表達感佩之意以上報告敬請各委員先進指教謝謝各位好謝謝我們李廳長的報告接下來請速發部資源管理師專門委員沈專委報告在嗎"},{"start":2674.074,"end":2691.04,"text":"因為我們今天還有幾個報告單位還有國家通訊傳播委員會的法律事務處蔡處長內政部警政署的陳副署長內政部移民署科技偵查中心的江主任以及國家安全局第五處的呂處長我們為視情況要請大家來做檢要的報告請"},{"start":2696.243,"end":2722.106,"text":"主席各位委員那今天奉邀列席貴委員會針對行政院函請審議的通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案以及台灣民眾黨黨團擬具的通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案等兩案提出書面報告並就此向各位委員請議請各位委員不吝賜教因科技發展利用網路隨行詐騙"},{"start":2723.308,"end":2744.859,"text":"各自盜取或治安侵害之犯罪不斷增加且現行通訊保障及監察法在調取通訊記錄之限制及缺乏網路流量記錄保存調取的規定之下除於實務有自愛難行之餘外亦不足因應新興網路犯罪增加之趨勢"},{"start":2746.44,"end":2769.292,"text":"法務部擬具之《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》案。台灣民眾黨亦擬具《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》案。其中有關第三條之一網路流量記錄的部分因為流量記錄系指能夠連接網路的設備在網路上所產生的數據量"},{"start":2771.013,"end":2793.011,"text":"因行政院版本及台灣民眾黨黨團版本均符合上該定義,僅差異於紀錄之資料多掛。因此應該要視檢調機構需求而定本部均尊重大院委員會討論結果並持續出席法定主管機關、行政院及立法院召開之相關會議。"},{"start":2794.272,"end":2800.817,"text":"就實務執行部分給予意見其共同聯手保護民眾權益以上報告敬請指教"},{"start":2826.271,"end":2846.81,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生本會奉邀列席貴委員會就《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》之審查會議提出書面報告如下進行指教為因應近年來科技發展利用網路稅刑、詐騙、盜取個資或資安"},{"start":2850.903,"end":2875.342,"text":"自安害侵犯罪不斷增加之趨勢本次修正草案徵定保存及調取網路流量記錄之規定並明定建置網路流量記錄留存及調閱系統相關事項及費用電信事業與設置公眾電信網路者協力義務及處罰規定以有效打擊網路犯罪"},{"start":2876.84,"end":2895.24,"text":"被有效查緝網路犯罪或資安害侵案件本會支持行政院函修正草案需依法律分工與政府各部會協力共同打擊網路犯罪以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2896.584,"end":2906.246,"text":"好謝謝蔡組長我們NCC的報告內容非常簡要一個一頁好最後我們請內政部警政署陳副署長報告"},{"start":2920.519,"end":2935.376,"text":"主席各位委員先敬大家首先感謝各位委員對通保法及檢查這個涉及警察犯罪偵查工作的關心與重視這個特別表達感謝那就這次修法緊就"},{"start":2936.397,"end":2955.661,"text":"跟本署比較有關的報告如下第一個通保法這個在88年7月14日制定公佈迄今經歷5次修訂那最近一次是在107年5月23日修之公佈為因應近年來利用網路詐騙盜取個資及"},{"start":2960.243,"end":2985.958,"text":"這個侵害這個網路犯罪等等不斷增加這個已修訂本法關於吊起這個通訊紀錄之限制這個並增訂保存及吊起網路流量紀錄之規定以有效來打擊網路犯罪第二因應網路犯罪即快速傳播滅症的特性為有效打擊網路犯罪以比照這個通訊紀錄"},{"start":2989.195,"end":3009.894,"text":"此吊起通訊紀錄的程序明文規範網路流量紀錄的吊起規定就網路流量紀錄之資料類型加以限制並對吊起票內容及申請程序有所限制有利於公益及社會治安並橫平飲食前保障第三吊起"},{"start":3011.696,"end":3031.315,"text":"通訊使用者資料對於隱私權制影響較為輕微以通訊記錄涉及電訊使用人與他人通年狀況還有通訊的形態所在的位置等等所涉隱私程度有所不同為因應網路詐欺日期嚴重"},{"start":3032.015,"end":3056.543,"text":"常有金流快速移轉網路逆中即兮禁止受援因此訴法警察機關為偵查犯罪及收集證據確有依職權調取通訊使用者資料之必要第四現行通訊保障及監察法規定犯罪重本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪使得調取通訊紀錄導致之多"},{"start":3058.7,"end":3077.622,"text":"案件無法調起資料通訊．這個有礙犯罪調查及真實發現並避免民眾產生主辦大案不辦小案的疑慮以上這個就本史的報告重點說明日上謝謝大家"},{"start":3079.94,"end":3086.985,"text":"好謝謝陳副署長那麼其餘機關報告請參閱書面那機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄那機關報告已報告完畢現在開始詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為4分鐘均不再延長上午10時30分截止發言登記現在請登記地位的省委員發會詢答"},{"start":3123.554,"end":3126.738,"text":"主席我們先請政部長有請政部長委員早部長早我們這個禮拜我們司法及法制委員會用了三天的時間"},{"start":3139.181,"end":3162.912,"text":"就針對我們行政院所推出針對國人所關心目前這個詐騙集團橫行我們這個台灣的這個詐欺犯罪的這個成為國人最為困擾以及目前這個這個最對自然擾亂最大對人民這個財產侵害最大的一個犯罪形態"},{"start":3164.349,"end":3188.935,"text":"我們行政院所推出的這個打詐釋法那我們這個本委員會用三天的時間到審到今天這第三個這個是通訊監察法那這個通訊監察法這個的修法事實上已經一方面倡議已久一方面我們過去也曾有各方有非常充分而且總長的討論"},{"start":3191.195,"end":3195.303,"text":"最主要原因是因為通訊監察一、現在我們像我們這個這個"},{"start":3199.332,"end":3225.164,"text":"目前的這些可以說我們說現在的犯罪形態基本上整個犯罪形態犯罪手法犯罪工具他基本上這個在在利用這個現代的科技科技的進步事實上是不斷的推陳出新我們過去說道高一死魔高一帳那這個這個我們的法制如果我們的在法制面上面對於這個"},{"start":3228.238,"end":3247.825,"text":"這個有關相關的這些科技科技通訊的這些相關的偵查手法我們法律沒有予以一定程度的授權的話事實上是沒有辦法跟上這個犯罪犯罪形態更新的腳步所以這個部分在剛剛包括這些立法說明裡面我們也都有都說明很清楚但是"},{"start":3248.991,"end":3271.684,"text":"今天的這個通訊保障監察法通訊保障監察法他在過去到現在為什麼這麼長時間的討論最主要是因為他一方面對現在這個打擊這個現在一些相關國人關心的重大的治安案件包括詐騙包括其他的許多我們等一下會討論的一些犯罪形態他確實目前這個通訊監察確實是在偵查裡面的關鍵核心尤其是證據取得的關鍵核心"},{"start":3279.585,"end":3288.077,"text":"但是另外一方面因為這個通訊監察他也對於這個人權保障有一個最密切的關聯因為這個這個"},{"start":3291.222,"end":3315.979,"text":"對於這個一般通訊使用者而言這個是否受到監察這是完全無法掌握他不像說跟監不像說其他的這個強制處分的方式偵查手法這些可以讓當事者明白知道因為所有通訊監察都在當事者一定在當事者所不知的情況之下進行了"},{"start":3317.529,"end":3322.455,"text":"所以這個部分這個也在社會上引起很多的關注了齁"},{"start":3323.885,"end":3347.965,"text":"那我首先就是來請教這個部長你們第一個要必須要跟委員會跟國人說明的就是說為什麼把通訊監察法放在所謂打詐司法裡面他對於目前打我們要偵查打擊這個這個這個我們的詐騙集團的犯罪犯罪形態站著什麼樣重要性這部分我先請部長回答我等一下我請這個警政署"},{"start":3348.973,"end":3373.297,"text":"警政署副署長等一下也現在請上台請部長可以回答等一下警政署副署長好謝謝委員那我們知道現在詐團詐欺的詐團的犯罪是我們所有檢警辦的所有案件的最大宗是佔所謂的而且是這個最被害人是非常多那而且現在一個網路時代的一個興起現在以前詐團都用電話來詐騙現在沒有人用電話了"},{"start":3376.678,"end":3403.017,"text":"現在轉到網路了網路的時代而且他網路也製造很多的一個斷點所以我們現在如果說這個修法不調取我們這個重點就是調取網路的流量的一個記錄如果不調取這些的一個記錄那我想我們真的是在一個偵辦犯罪會變成的落後於整個那個詐團的一些的一個角度我請先請這個警政署齁你說明一下現在"},{"start":3404.841,"end":3425.548,"text":"我們這次新增的就剛剛部長所講的一個關鍵的就是調取網路流量這件事情對於在目前我們偵辦上面因為我們現在不行現在目前的現行法令你不能調取使用者的這個網路流量所以他在偵查偵訪上面具體的實例他在哪裡會出現問題"},{"start":3427.338,"end":3454.399,"text":"在整個詐騙集團的這個犯罪過程裡面在我們怎麼證據取得上面在什麼部份會出現問題現在只要是大家可以看到以前就是前一陣子我們常常會接到那個恐嚇恐嚇的那個E-mail那個訊息結果他都是境外跳板的這個我們是查不到就是造成斷點那有這個法通過我們就可以溯源這個有利於這個"},{"start":3455.5,"end":3482.41,"text":"最主要我這樣子聽起來最主要目前所謂製造斷點這個部分他是不是只有這個方式透過調取網路流量我們才可以包括現在大家全民受害的那個網路詐騙其實都是雷頭網路詐騙也是嘛他也是在我們在偵查的過程中遇到這個這個這個他們所製造的這些斷點我們就必須要用網路流量來偵查所以目前這個就是我們的困難那這個通過就可以突破"},{"start":3482.85,"end":3496.104,"text":"好,謝謝副署長副署長這個昨天在我們今天就要審查要審查這個通訊保障法但是在昨天我們這個"},{"start":3498.387,"end":3512.105,"text":"這個司法改革前天我們這個民間司改會他們也召開了記者會就是針對我們目前的通訊保障的修正他們也提出幾個質疑我覺得這些質疑"},{"start":3515.27,"end":3534.001,"text":"有他的道理而且社會也有這樣的疑慮所以我希望說今天在這個集會上面我希望部長能夠在就這些部分做一些說明他們有蠻多針對這個通訊法這次修正的這些質疑但是我看到的兩個比較大的重點第一個就是我們這次修法這修第11條之一將這個過去這個調取這個這個通訊使用者資料"},{"start":3543.339,"end":3561.09,"text":"通訊使用者資料過去是檢察官保留跟法官保留現在我們把這個都拿掉了不是拿掉了我們現在擴大到警察他可以直接調取通訊使用者的資料這個部分"},{"start":3562.151,"end":3578.164,"text":"他依照統計過去的的的這些這些這些調取的案件齁這個部分是不是請請部請部長來說明我們拿掉拿掉了這個這個有關通訊者欸通訊使用者資料的這個檢察官保留的這個部分是不是請部長說明是一條之一"},{"start":3579.601,"end":3597.829,"text":"那個使用者資料就是我們那個升登的一個資料大概就是姓名、身份證、字號、住址、聯繫方式我舉個最簡單的例子這德國跟美國他們都不需要法官的令狀我舉個最簡單例子譬如說我們手機留一個不明的一個電話號碼結果民眾誤信了結果跟他聯絡他跑來就炸錢了結果他發覺錢拿出去之後"},{"start":3601.471,"end":3601.912,"text":"二、繼續併案審查 unemploy（二、繼續併案"},{"start":3620.174,"end":3642.257,"text":"所以我們認為這個對隱私的這個是一個啦因為這個是沒有內容的嘛這個使用的資料只有單純的深燈人的這些的姓名那個門號的這些的基本資料並沒有這個通訊裡面的內容這個民間團體他們質疑的是說按照這樣子通過大概有九成九成的案件都不會經過法院都不會經過法院"},{"start":3643.378,"end":3665.57,"text":"這個跟委員報告他這是使用者是一個偵查一個最先的一個開頭你現在沒辦法去做這個再做進一步的釐清嘛所以我們譬如說使用者只要調了之後我們才有辦法去進下一步譬如說調取這些的通聯的這些記錄這下一步才有作戰所以使用者只要是第一步而已這個齁這個"},{"start":3669.805,"end":3684.704,"text":"這個部分是民間這個有質疑而且事實上這個民間團體他們希望我們能夠提出完整的人權影響評估其實也並不是純然的反對但是認為說我們在立法過程中對於人權"},{"start":3685.845,"end":3685.865,"text":"二、繼續併"},{"start":3703.66,"end":3703.72,"text":"一）以上。"},{"start":3734.284,"end":3754.1,"text":"謝謝省委員、謝謝政部長、謝謝副署長由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢,尚未確定,現在先確認議事錄請問各位,上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏?沒有好,沒有,那我們議事錄確定好,那麼接下來我們邀請莊委員瑞雄發言"},{"start":3767.161,"end":3774.387,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部政部長有請政部長司法院今天是李廳長李廳長委員早部長我想今天幾個問題來救教這個我相信在法律人最有名的一個"},{"start":3791.13,"end":3797.397,"text":"對於大法官會議的一個解釋大家都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號631號我看它在整個解釋裡面"},{"start":3805.441,"end":3823.113,"text":"他有特別去你把他整個文件把它給看完以後你會看到就是說你如果說把人民的權利跟刑事訴訟就是刑事訴追的關係來列一個位階的話我不曉得部長你把什麼列為是第一個位階這兩個來做比較這問題就有趣了"},{"start":3832.406,"end":3856.161,"text":"這個大法官4至6、3、1號解釋是主要是闡述那個那個保障那個主要是對秘密通訊自由的一些含色的範圍做一個做一個釐清對所以嘛我就我就問了就是說如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴罪的關係來排列位階的話第一個位階當然就一定是憲法保障的基本人權嘛"},{"start":3856.841,"end":3883.3,"text":"第二個才會是我們的這個刑事訴追的一個利益啊啊這個從幾號幾號的一個大會的一個解釋啊我們都可以看到了啊就是變成說隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的一個自由啊這個其實就是一個普世的一個價值啦這我相信應該各位都可以來認同啊要怎麼樣去限制他你第一個你必須要去合理或者正當"},{"start":3884.349,"end":3900.612,"text":"我們整個通訊的一個監察我們看從過去從1999年通保法裡面檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察到現在授權偵察機關也必須要檢察官向法院來申請這樣的一個令狀"},{"start":3901.613,"end":3926.296,"text":"其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的一個重視那我今天為什麼特別會提出來就是延續著昨天的一個對法務部跟司法院這邊的一個詢問有幾個概念裡面其實我倒會覺得說我們今天在審查這樣的一個條文大法官事事631號其實還是很重要的一個基石很重要的一個基石"},{"start":3927.057,"end":3943.102,"text":"那今天呢涉及到整個監察的情況你像譬如說事中的監察事後的監察這個都很重要我看在解釋文裡面他也講得非常清楚了這個涉及到這比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重我們今天得這些條文那"},{"start":3944.909,"end":3961.191,"text":"我昨天提出一個最可怕的就是說你去做一般法院在或者司法機關在做強制處分的時候人民還可以現實的可以知道還可以行使一些防疫權那這種通訊跟屬於通訊跟監察的範圍裡面呢"},{"start":3962.852,"end":3987.365,"text":"來無影去無蹤神不知鬼不覺所以過去我們歷次的一個修法裡面這個會有這麼多這麼多的一個爭議那你到了馬王政爭以後那整部法律院又去翻修到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的你就一直監聽監聽下去嘛到最後變成說一人一狀一人一個"},{"start":3990.019,"end":4017.308,"text":"你要監聽特定人的你就必須要經過法院的一個核可那我這一次要再提出來了就是說我們這個法令訂下去以後我們最擔心的就是說你在當事人甚至於第三人毫不知情之下會導致導致整個訴訟上的一個防禦沒有辦法去行使連聲明不符的機會都沒有這個是在631解釋裡面都要講得非常清楚了那這一次的重點我就來講就是說"},{"start":4018.628,"end":4041.747,"text":"網路流量紀錄這個太陽你把它加入這個變成可收集的一個證據的部分以後啊那我們本法在第15條又沒有去跟著修訂整個增訂整個告知的一個義務啦那我請教法務部長就是說對於沒有把網路流量這個紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼我特別來做請教"},{"start":4046.25,"end":4062.107,"text":"這個通知當然是為了一個救濟但是是不是說要給予通知救濟那我想這個是應該有司法院來就會有通盤的一個考量這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量"},{"start":4063.508,"end":4080.413,"text":"這個是一個有爭議我們從整個這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑訴書案416條來提救濟嘛那既然是有必須要救濟的這部分這部分我們是法務部好那我請教司法院那個議廳長"},{"start":4082.967,"end":4098.232,"text":"我是覺得你們這樣的一個解釋這個都不夠充分了其實我是把問題丟出來給你們你們應該充分的跟社會來做一個對話你從憲法第22條你就可以去引申出來整個資訊的一個自主權"},{"start":4099.112,"end":4126.895,"text":"這個在其實在釋字603號跟689號裡面解釋裡面都有去提到啦這個明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的一個自主權這個都屬於憲法保障上的一個權利因為昨天啊聽長你也在你們談到這個部分你們都是在講說我行政上的內控你們一直在談在這個內控可是呢你說個人的資料自主如果受到"},{"start":4128.794,"end":4155.366,"text":"我剛提到這樣的肯認的話那你應該獲得相當的一個重視所以我一直在強調說這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題嘛那你們在事務條裡面沒有跟著去做一個徵定聽著你剛剛部長那個講法你可以做補充嗎如果依照委員的說法我是蠻認同委員的說法應該對人民的權益任何的侵害或是這個應該要給他有救濟的機會"},{"start":4158.035,"end":4170.741,"text":"法務部這次提出這個修法我知道你們都利益良善但是我在這個地方其實都是在提出提醒你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微這個部分其實我是不認同的"},{"start":4176.304,"end":4193.576,"text":"這個是一個基本權力的一個保障的一個問題啦你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候啊你說姓名啊身份證字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握啊那這些資料不是所謂的影響輕微啦我是覺得至少不然你們用字這個部分啊 也不要這樣說你知道嗎 也不要這樣說"},{"start":4195.337,"end":4224.336,"text":"這個就不對喔那這次修法裡面你看你重點是修正了三條支一定的這個名詞網路流量所以網路流量是不是含設在第三條所稱的一個通訊跟委員報告齁因為我們認為那個只有使用者的資料這基本資料這是非常輕微那其他我們不認為就是說對隱私錢的一個干預我們認為是要法官保留是要法官保留所以我們認為是要經過許可的"},{"start":4225.294,"end":4247.942,"text":"我對這樣的講法我是覺得講法都不夠清楚啦我為什麼會這樣問呢就是說如果算在通訊裡面那你執行通訊監察的時候等於是賦予調查機關未來可以調查網路流量的一個記錄那等同是什麼呢你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有網路流量的記錄不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":4249.623,"end":4271.79,"text":"法律效果就會變這樣啊?根委員報告其實我們這次修的那個三之一的那個網路流量 這個不是通訊 這個不是通訊的一個內容這個不算通訊內容 這個不算 這個不是 這只是一個數位的一個軌跡那個就是一個通訊內容 來來來 廳長我來請教你的看法 這個我就跟部長的意見就完全不一樣了"},{"start":4272.329,"end":4274.171,"text":"那你要把它定成什麼?"},{"start":4274.171,"end":4276.373,"text":"那他就不是受憲法保障的權利喔?"},{"start":4291.69,"end":4316.289,"text":"他還是受憲法保障的權利來來來那憲法哪一個部分的保障的權利那可能是個人資料的一部分那不過跟委員報告一下在目前的相關的開戶資料我想在我們在偵查機關經常會調取什麼金融機構的帳戶的開戶資料那對偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的啦那所以說後面的相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去"},{"start":4317.31,"end":4334.078,"text":"表示不符或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄"},{"start":4336.618,"end":4339.56,"text":"所以說嘛所以說嘛到最後變成強制你整個電信業者必須要把這個網路的流量的記錄把它做一個保存啊"},{"start":4353.144,"end":4378.142,"text":"這個很可怕我是覺得這個很可怕要再跟社會講清楚了整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督的一個機制都沒有在法律的層次裡面去做訂定跟委員報告其實在三條之一就是這些網路的流量記錄是有列舉六項的流量記錄這個很清楚只有這六項的流量記錄列舉的才需要保存所以就變成強制啦"},{"start":4380.063,"end":4384.385,"text":"那你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你們也沒去做說明啊你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 從網域裡面一個名稱到協定的資料裡面 你就變成說我就可以知道說使用者進去哪一個網頁用了什麼APP 那其實就是瀏覽記錄的一部分了嘛"},{"start":4397.812,"end":4398.053,"text":"我當然知道。"},{"start":4418.171,"end":4441.044,"text":"那是另外一個要另外一個通訊監要去處理的問題不是釣取那個我意思是說你還要整包還要電信業者你一定一定要強制他必須要去做一個留存了啦這這這很可怕你知道不知道我就跟你說你像比如說我們內政部我們政府機關常常有一些資料個人隱私的資料會外洩啊你這一個落後"},{"start":4443.973,"end":4459.004,"text":"你就變成我們整個這個會壯大收集整個各自數量跟那個類型跟數量你這個到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料的一個分析像目前的目前的通信記錄本來這些電信業者本就在保留了"},{"start":4460.475,"end":4485.1,"text":"那現在我們是增加因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化的現在用我們現在傳統那個門號的那種的詐騙方式他現在已經已經變成是不是居住那麼重要現在整個網路的一個詐騙變多了所以我們才有這一條其實這就是等於一個通聯的一個就像我們那個門號的一個通聯記錄而已而且我們限縮在列列舉的六種的一個一個網路的"},{"start":4486.66,"end":4512.032,"text":"一個流量的就限定他6個是嘛你去看我們整個通保法嘛為什麼到最後要採令狀那在採令狀你也不是什麼罪你都可以去監聽捏這針對重大類型的一個犯罪捏這齁我再一次來講啦齁再一次來講啦這個齁連這個部分法官保留齁我都覺得這會養出另外一頭巨獸"},{"start":4517.246,"end":4528.792,"text":"這個我再次提出叮嚀一下就是說昨天講很多東西我相信不同的政黨的委員也都有去提到你們動不動就講說內空用行政監督"},{"start":4529.827,"end":4554.685,"text":"那我現在講的是說你這些資料的保存業者的監督業者保存的範圍你這根本就看不到內控你行政監督你怎麼去管理啦我擔心的是這個法律有明我規定這個草案有規定就是一定要定執法那個是在14條之一這是一個執法的在第6第6項第6項要定執法"},{"start":4555.526,"end":4572.438,"text":"那另外我有關心的這些的問題這個在第14條之一都有做相關的一個規定我想這部分可以細部的我會再跟你就教啦我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念你強制的業者了以後那他本來保存了以後那保存了以後假設我是駭客啦"},{"start":4573.539,"end":4592.446,"text":"我又把你給侵入了啦你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪啦你就本一到最後把龐大國人的網路流量記錄交給別人來做一個掌管那個如果遭到外洩的這個後果又非常的嚴重你網路流量其實也會去記錄到當中的一個IP啊如果遭到外洩取得位置發動一些網路的一個詐騙的話甚至害入整個電腦的話"},{"start":4596.56,"end":4597.782,"text":"我從昨天到現在的用語都是講說齁"},{"start":4611.756,"end":4628.72,"text":"再考慮一下看是不是可以把這個整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分再去做一個考量啦我要再一次再提出來總是要提醒啦雖然是執政黨的但是我看來以後我把我的疑慮憂慮再提出來讓你們做一個提醒好不好謝謝好謝謝莊委員謝謝部長、廳長接下來有請陳委員俊宇發言"},{"start":4655.66,"end":4658.302,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們有請鄭部長有請鄭部長部長早"},{"start":4663.513,"end":4686.31,"text":"委員早好我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正的草案那也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的這個橫行境外網路犯罪的情況非常的嚴重那所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具那"},{"start":4687.211,"end":4695.366,"text":"想先就我們院版草案當中這個實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長在草案的第三條第一"},{"start":4696.885,"end":4719.732,"text":"第三條之一第二項當中所規範的這個通訊使用者資料從第十一條的第一之一的這個修訂來看是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的那我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來做一個斷點但因為這個調取的程序相當的簡單將來"},{"start":4722.307,"end":4727.758,"text":"這個有權力調取的人也會比較多那我想請教就這樣的相對低門檻的調取條件"},{"start":4729.64,"end":4753.615,"text":"會不會存在備濫用的可能?謝謝委員那我想這個那個要調用的前提一定是有對特定的一個犯罪來做修正的這個是屬於第一步哈就譬如說我一個詐團我一個一個被害人被詐團他有一個手機就是我這個手機或者是網路的哪一個一個一個e-mail是怎麼樣傳給我的那我我就去報因為我被騙了報"},{"start":4754.415,"end":4782.143,"text":"警察第一步一定是去了解這e-mail跟那個這個手機門號這使用者的一個資料嘛那如果說這個以併案來講他非常急而且警方也非常的一個會急迫的情形或者是一個擄人的屬於電話或一個恐嚇恐嚇的一個治安的一個電話我們是不是還要再經法官保留啊檢換保留那這個一定這個在延誤辦案時機更何況德國英國這個都沒有德國美國這個都是不需要法官令狀的是"},{"start":4782.403,"end":4783.883,"text":"二、繼續併案《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":4804.189,"end":4805.31,"text":"二、繼續併案審查cellence"},{"start":4821.546,"end":4847.045,"text":"這個有關我們第三條之一的第三項網路流量的記錄的部分那看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還蠻廣的啦齁那尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的這個足跡所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取想跟部長您來討論一下就是我想先了解的是我們檢檢在偵辦的這個過程當中"},{"start":4850.608,"end":4858.88,"text":"通常是用何種情況下會需要調取這些資料而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來這個申請這個要調閱資料"},{"start":4863.002,"end":4887.106,"text":"就是我們有看到就是數位的比如說我們知道門號或者是e-mail這一種的一個詐騙的一個情形那我們最想要知道就是說因為這個是不明而且有人頭的一個帳戶帳號的一個情形所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌那個身份所以我們去追追是不是追這個IP啦或是怎樣的一個真正的一個背後的一個到底是一個身份那我們才用上述溯源"},{"start":4887.806,"end":4912.737,"text":"這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的一個階段而已這個在一個個人隱私這部分這個是非常關鍵是非常小而且而且這個我們這前提一定要有個案件一定要這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性我們才會去做才這樣的一個一個調位這些一個資料好那看起來在這個11條之一當中並沒有特別規範說調取網路流量記錄的這個對象"},{"start":4916.198,"end":4932.763,"text":"只要檢察官認為有必要有關聯,這個剛剛部長您也大概說了都能夠向法院來申請調取的票但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關門檻"},{"start":4939.864,"end":4940.164,"text":"二、繼續併案"},{"start":4962.338,"end":4962.378,"text":"二、繼續併案"},{"start":4980.728,"end":4993.995,"text":"好那如果部長我想請教就是說我們今天使用的是這個VPN在上網這個應該有涉及到境外的部分我們還能夠追蹤得到這些紀錄嗎?"},{"start":4995.838,"end":5019.898,"text":"這個密片是一個虛擬的私人網絡它其實裡面都是加密的它就一個就是加密的中轉站它是把那個真實IP是隱藏起來另外再開一條加密的一個途徑那這邊當然這邊我們是在這邊可以增加我們這個辦案的一個困擾但如果說我們這邊有一個網路受到網路的一個流量的一個"},{"start":5021.14,"end":5028.879,"text":"一）一些的記錄就這些的數位軌跡我們可以試圖去做去做一個一個去做一個突破吼那我想這"},{"start":5030.542,"end":5050.438,"text":"那這個比較詳細的這部分因為執行面的是不是可以請警政署就這樣執行面的這邊的一個說明沒關係沒關係這個部分後續我再請教警政署針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間"},{"start":5054.02,"end":5074.054,"text":"那對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說了對於這個打擊犯罪有其必要但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎避免這個涉及到這個侵犯到個人的隱私的這個方面的問題謝謝委員"},{"start":5075.655,"end":5091.274,"text":"那另外我想請教就是對於AI應用的部分那因為近期這個熱門的搜索關鍵字就是AI我想跟部長您來討論一下這幾天我們整個新聞社群媒體甚至百公百業都在討論這個AI不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢"},{"start":5094.457,"end":5121.974,"text":"討論到這個AI在台灣的發展趨勢那現在在隔壁的這個國防部長報告當中也提及到這個AI在軍事上的應用那過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的這個輔助應用對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解紓緩這個壓力甚至在過去我們法務部也曾經以這個科技化的法務部自詡"},{"start":5123.001,"end":5144.577,"text":"不過對於實際的這個應用成效目前我們所知的這個資訊也都只是這個比較片段一些我想請教部長就是我們各部會都在積極部署AI的業務上應用那法務部也有使用這個一段時間的這個AI的這個應用了那目前看來使用的成效如何?"},{"start":5145.898,"end":5171.682,"text":"謝謝委員目前我們法務部的AI計劃已經完成了跟警方的一個借接了那這部分基本上可以用那個譬如說詐團的那個幫助人頭賬戶的詐欺的一個付表或酒駕這一部分那可以用AI來做一個處理而且可以帶入警訊的一個筆錄那這個已經在台中跟桃園來試辦了那我們希望下半年能夠擴大到台北跟新北那希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔那謝謝委員關心"},{"start":5175.143,"end":5190.469,"text":"好因為智慧AI我相信這是未來的一個趨勢的啊那我們現在在全台只有四個縣市的地檢署有在試辦這個AI的這個這個今年年底交到四個對在台北新竹苗栗跟台南嘛齁那未來是不是有可能"},{"start":5190.829,"end":5219.018,"text":"一）到我們每一個縣市都能夠來普及來使用。對,我們希望若事辦的效果更好,我們會在整個全部普及來使用。我們是很期待。那就期待我們這個法務部來努力,看能不能盡早來部署完成。好,以上謝謝部長。好,謝謝委員。謝謝陳委員,謝謝曾部長。接下來有請林委員私名發言。好,謝謝主席。"},{"start":5220.244,"end":5221.451,"text":"我們請法務部政部長"},{"start":5225.426,"end":5253.704,"text":"委員早部長早部長我們這次修訂的通保法內當然有很多疑慮該大家也都有提出來我首先請教部長就是說我們通保法內的通訊的定義是否包括以網路通訊軟體比如說LINE或者是微信或者這個Message所傳送的文字圖片以及語音訊息有沒有包含這些通訊軟體"},{"start":5255.905,"end":5280.211,"text":"這部分不包括不包括嗎?如果說不包括的話那以我們現在國人使用手機的習慣所以我們大部分都是使用這些LINE的通訊軟體或者微信或者臉書的message來做相關的文字或者圖片這些相關的語音訊息的一個傳送"},{"start":5281.411,"end":5294.761,"text":"所以如果沒有辦法就這些網路通訊軟體的通訊內容加以監察是不是會對於我們犯罪偵查的效果就變成打折了所以這樣通保法的"},{"start":5295.816,"end":5323.371,"text":"立法跟我們昨天我們在這個當然也就這個科技偵查法我們也做相關的一個審查但是如果說對這方面的我們沒有辦法去做相關的一個去去做去我講就是如這一次的我們去把這方面的通訊做相關的一個監察是不是我們對就感覺上就好像少了什麼東西啊"},{"start":5325.549,"end":5346.576,"text":"謝謝我關心這問題。事實上這些社群網路的這些的平台業者這些的通訊軟體這部分是沒辦法去因為都是加密的所以沒辦法做通訊檢查所以部長我的感受就是說這個就變成說這個這變成防君子不防小人的溫柔立法"},{"start":5347.622,"end":5367.661,"text":"很溫柔對犯罪偵查的注意有限就這些人因為你沒有辦法去做這方面的監察那這些不管是詐騙或者是阻止犯罪的這些人他如果利用這些通訊軟體來做相關的通訊的話聽部長剛才的一個說法是不是我們就完全"},{"start":5368.697,"end":5368.897,"text":"媒折。"},{"start":5393.146,"end":5417.792,"text":"如果真的需要這些通訊軟體的資料比如說LINE的軟體的一個通訊的一個資料我們也沒有辦法跟他們來就是說做配合我們的檢警調沒有辦法去跟這些LINE的公司來合作就是說因為真的我們有偵查犯罪的必要來請他們提供嗎沒有辦法合作嗎目前的話我們只用協議的一個方式那就要看這個整個通訊"},{"start":5418.792,"end":5419.733,"text":"規定任何的協議嗎?目前有事"},{"start":5431.24,"end":5460.137,"text":"他另外那個以以賴的話齁以賴的話齁是他我們協議是沒辦法他一定要個搜索票要要就依循序訴訟法是是規定申請搜索票去跟賴講說欸這邊有說欸他他他才會提供而且他只能調到回溯80日齁跟連續7日的一個資料那基本上這個賴的內容都是有加密的所以事實上事實上我們只能看調到的內容還是有限還是有限喔好"},{"start":5461.294,"end":5473.823,"text":"那好 這個部分當然我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞 這真的是一個漏洞看如何來做一個建制還是那個我們次長 處長做補充一下"},{"start":5475.923,"end":5502.402,"text":"關於LINE的這個部分,如果LINE它本身有投放廣告的話那在我們昨天大院所一讀通過的打雜專法裡面事實上就這一個平台業者他如果投放廣告的話他有相關的留存的義務跟我們跟他調取他比較提供的義務所以未來如果相關的平台他有符合廣告業者的規定的話可以用新的打雜專法去調取"},{"start":5502.882,"end":5530.283,"text":"是,好接下來我再請問我們現在的詐騙案件大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外所以部長對於這種偵查到如果是國外IP的伺服器那我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查沒有辦法來偵辦目前在這部分會整個就偵辦就會遇到阻礙了是"},{"start":5531.912,"end":5552.619,"text":"所以如何克服這部分如何克服所以這樣聽起來即便有科技這幾個大專法通過好像對這些境外的這些他的機房在境外的或者他是用國外的伺服器聽起來就完全我們沒有辦法去打擊所以委員就問到重點了這就是我們第三條的那個"},{"start":5553.539,"end":5553.699,"text":"所以我們先﹖"},{"start":5568.815,"end":5588.983,"text":"即便目前我們在國際間的形式合作有很多的一個管道不管是法務部我們有國際及兩岸法律司調查局有國際事務處警政署也有國際組刑事警察局也有國際刑警科所以我們這幾個"},{"start":5591.625,"end":5604.701,"text":"國際的這些相關的跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外的這些IP去跟國外來請求協助嗎?欸這部分這個比較專業有沒有那個我們警政署"},{"start":5607.915,"end":5635.255,"text":"那個我們是不是可以先請那個我們市長好市長請回請回跟這個委員報告剛才講到境外的這個網路業者的部分事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面也通過有一條要求這境外業者要在台灣准落地是他必須要到台灣設置一個法律代表人的一個機制如果他沒有設的話我們必須用高額的行政裁罰去裁罰他透過行政上的管制要求境外的業者在台灣准落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者"},{"start":5635.735,"end":5662.876,"text":"那至於司法互助的部分當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求但在國這個當然是緩不比較速度比較慢透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關的情資交換的情資是所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的對這些有一個行政管制的那如果這樣的話我們警政署這屬於你們的業務吧那未來這個遇到這種情況你們未來要如何執行"},{"start":5664.568,"end":5684.123,"text":"因為現在碰到境外確實有他的困難就是說這個剛提到VNPA的斷點就是伺服器在國外所以就追不下去那我們現在可以做的第一個就我們知道他這個網路就把他封鎖第二個當然成效不一定就如果我們知道是某一個國家如果我們有駐外聯絡這個"},{"start":5686.024,"end":5698.88,"text":" ８二）行事局有諸外聯絡官或許可以請求協助８二）那另外我們現在積極在爭取的希望我們能夠增加加入國際刑警組織但是目前這個還在努力當中８二）副處長我覺得我聽起來這方面真的我們要再"},{"start":5702.585,"end":5702.945,"text":"現在還有他的難度"},{"start":5726.238,"end":5754.038,"text":"是我想我時間的關係我再問最後一個問題我想我們在考慮無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權不要涉及各自不要收集到第三人的資料而且我們昨天的科證法也這個對於說收集到的資料我們除非認為有必要那否則要立即銷毀有必要也要在五年後要銷毀"},{"start":5755.379,"end":5782.836,"text":"所以法律是定的很嚴謹但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料就比如說這個被台北地檢署現在在偵辦的王逸川他就表明了說他對於民眾的個資他掌握的有包含性別年齡足跡數位足跡所以我要問部長他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料還有我們的網路流量紀錄"},{"start":5785.153,"end":5804.432,"text":"依照王一昌他的說法這是他個人的說法那這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據來源不過這個案件現在已經臺北地檢署在偵辦中我相信檢察官會依法來不是啊我希望勿忘無重他敢這樣講他今天敢在電視上這樣講"},{"start":5807.125,"end":5835.411,"text":"一）可見他是真的有這個掌握相關的資料。他說他用膝蓋就可以可想而知就可以去了解這些資料。部長你相信嗎?他這不是在胡說八道嗎?所以部長我在這邊就是說因為已經在偵辦中我要求你勿忘無中。一個人可以膽大妄為在這個電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量記錄以及使用者的資料。"},{"start":5836.69,"end":5837.631,"text":"主席有請部長"},{"start":5866.444,"end":5893.531,"text":"請鄭部長部長我念一個條文給你聽就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條第二條第一項規定偵查中檢察官認為有必要時得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪"},{"start":5894.151,"end":5912.768,"text":"情形及收證證據有必要時一同。我想請問您這一條拿掉了嗎?這一條沒有拿掉這是原來的草案的第三條那昨天在就是委員的關心就是說因為這是類舉我跟委員說明齁"},{"start":5914.07,"end":5921.321,"text":"我先跟部長講我謝謝你澄清啦昨天我問你這一條你說拿掉了但事實上是沒有拿掉你先聽我講完沒關係部長你說謊嗎"},{"start":5926.038,"end":5943.424,"text":"你騙我嗎?我直接幫你講答案好不好部長我不認為你說謊我也不認為你騙人因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講說你可能理解錯誤我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去然後你也可能口誤"},{"start":5944.797,"end":5969.059,"text":"這個是第二條拿掉是原的我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項欸你現在還要我不認為你說謊喔你現在是意思是你騙我說謊嗎那個我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的第二條我沒問你這個嘛第二條的那個蓋瓜授權我沒有問你蓋瓜授權嘛我跟部長問我昨天問你蓋瓜授權嗎主席在旁邊聽到我問你就這一條"},{"start":5969.779,"end":5994.269,"text":"啊這一條是絕對不會拿掉答對了嘛我之所以說你不會說謊我不認為你說謊因為這一條絕對不會拿掉嘛可是你今天防禦心態重我問你這一條你直接講這一條拿掉了我跟部長說今天吼雖然說國會改革法案已經通過因為還沒生效吼裡面有所謂說謊官員罪但這一罪我這邊直接做示範辦不到你你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼辦不到你因為我不認為你說謊"},{"start":5999.79,"end":6019.016,"text":"因為我認為我講這個條文你可能理解錯誤昨天主席也講理解錯誤理解錯誤不算說謊我接受不可能拿掉我不認為你說謊我幫你辯護欸部長對可是我告訴你啊部長請問是你理解錯誤還是我被你打臉啊昨天"},{"start":6021.36,"end":6047.392,"text":"昨天我們就是就法條的內容抱歉喔雖然我很體諒我昨天也沒有要幹什麼你有沒有發現你問你的幕僚來跟我解釋我就接受當然說那我接受部長可能就是跟我講的法條理解到別的地方去我接受這個說法我接受這個說法可是抱歉明天那個綠營的側翼可不是這麼看啦到處做影片開始說我被你打臉請問我被你打臉了嗎"},{"start":6048.362,"end":6074.785,"text":"有沒有我們在再做一個釐清嘛對嘛就在那邊做釐清嘛我只問你部長我被你打臉了嗎還是昨天你的溝通過程當中你對我講的法條你有誤解可能我們是對那個是不是蓋掛授權第二條的我就跟你講我沒有講蓋掛授權嘛我講的是第一條第一項我才講第一項你就跟我講拿掉了你就拿講拿掉啦我沒有講到蓋掛授權的問題啊我講第一項你就講拿掉啦"},{"start":6075.751,"end":6098.64,"text":"昨天影片很清楚喔所以抱歉部長我告訴你我已經也採取法律行動了因為我沒辦法容許今天這麼明顯的一個狀況還要去在網路上造謠扭曲那個側衣粉專也把這個相關的這個文章把它撤下來但是我今天要跟部長講本來昨天說的我也接受剛剛我們的那個主席的說法所以我昨天沒有說什麼事喔"},{"start":6099.48,"end":6122.981,"text":"可是抱歉我今天必須鄭重的澄清我還是說一句話部長以後我們在這個詢答的過程當中請你聽仔細我的問題好不好我沒有問的問題你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答第二個我要針對今天我們通保法還有包括昨天柯真法裡面我有很多的問題要請教一下部長首先我想請教您"},{"start":6125.114,"end":6137.272,"text":"你知道過去我們發生很多的大案包括說高鴻安案對不對包括這個楊文科案或林芝妙案都發生一件事情就是"},{"start":6138.533,"end":6160.162,"text":"在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中奇怪啊近週刊通通都知道所有案情所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實可是部長我有問過我有問前面蔡清祥部長這個問題他就說這個東西難以激考因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的你是持同樣的看法嗎"},{"start":6162.174,"end":6182.675,"text":"這個媒體的來源我們並不清楚非常好告訴你總而言之偵查不公開連我自己都曾經遇過我曾經因為這個一個洩密案我被當證人約談檢察官當場跟我講說羅先生因為這個偵查不公開你出去不要對外講結果一出去之後媒體全部都報導出來了"},{"start":6184.4,"end":6211.453,"text":"那當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關但是實際上偵查部公開輪迴一紙虛文甚至變成是今天拿來做所謂帶風向的工具以及是大家招招攬的事實那我想問你知道這跟今天我們的不管是科偵法跟所謂的通保法有什麼關聯性我想要請教一下第一個對通信記錄的部分我認同法務部說的它侵害性較小你知道為什麼認同通信記錄侵害性較小呢"},{"start":6212.293,"end":6226.828,"text":"所以可以給予比較多的所謂的你的所謂的授權一般性的授權或是最最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留你知道為什麼嗎你知道為什麼通訊紀錄這一部分我覺得相對來講侵害比較小為什麼因為現在沒什麼在打電話了大家談什麼事情都用什麼東西談剛剛前面林市民委員講的用什麼東西談"},{"start":6236.479,"end":6237.803,"text":"部長你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎?對嘛!"},{"start":6242.802,"end":6269.438,"text":"所以換言之通訊紀錄這個部分確實如你所說因為時代變遷的問題它的侵犯性較小但是抱歉網路足跡我不認為網路足跡我只問你一件事情網路足跡今天你調查到比方舉個例子賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士表他到購物網站去看勞力士表就被你們開始要去收集所謂的這個賴清德不一定是那位總統賴清德我只舉個名字而已"},{"start":6269.918,"end":6294.391,"text":"或是這位賴清德有一位賴清德他的主錯想要信託他答應主錯要信託結果主錯沒有信託跳票了他到法律網站去諮詢這個網路的足跡如果一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話這網路足跡看不看得到看不看得到網路足跡我們在第三條之一看不看得到嘛我只問你看不看得到嘛"},{"start":6295.384,"end":6295.725,"text":"你到底查什麼?"},{"start":6309.52,"end":6336.015,"text":"我們就是從裡面我們不會知道網址我們知道就譬如說他的IPIP位置但是我們不知道網址你說IP位置不能查不能做後續偵查那個是我們查的IP是可以嘛但是我們可以啊你就講可以啊IP不能查我要跟你講是後續作為要不要啟動的問題嘛對不對前端作為你要做你收集IP但後續作為你要不要做進一步的是進一步的問題嘛對不對"},{"start":6337.597,"end":6351.313,"text":"對這個是網絡網址我跟你講所以部長我時間真的有限你每次在這種細節的地方要跟我帶到外太空去我也質詢不完可是我回頭要講一件事情我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王逸川"},{"start":6353.694,"end":6359.755,"text":"你當然講不可能啊!你會不會違法偵查公開?你會不會?我跟你講你當然說不會嘛!就像說你會偵查不公開你也跟我保證你保證你們做所有偵查案件你們會做到偵查不公開嘛對不對?對嘛!可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件只要重大案件"},{"start":6381.579,"end":6399.614,"text":"就周刊馬上報導出啊我告訴你到現在為止只有法務部還在下壓他認為你的偵查公開做得很好偵查不公開做得很好我當然知道你的辯解我講的是結果論不是講你今天主觀論你主觀論認為偵查不公開做得很好但是仿在現在現實上"},{"start":6401.465,"end":6428.054,"text":"每個重大案件都這麼巧通通都偵查公開了也許不是法務部也許警政署也許是別的人我不知道啊但是我看到這件普遍性的現象我只問一件事情你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王逸川抱歉我只能盲目的相信你欸因為我很信任部長欸可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題是什麼我今天堅持就今天立法院法治局講的"},{"start":6429.485,"end":6449.699,"text":"你今天如果事前你跟我講不知道昨天的我們講這個所謂的科偵的一個作為GPS的作為說啊事前法官能力不夠檢察官能力不夠沒辦法法官保留沒辦法相對法官保留沒辦法檢察官保留我非得要辦案我一定要有效率一定要及時抓到人好啦為了打仗當然其實這部法不只是規範打仗沒錯吧"},{"start":6452.209,"end":6478.016,"text":"打詐只是其中之一嘛最重要之一也是你的主觀評價但是牽連到所有的犯罪類型全部都有沒有關係我跟你講昨天已經講過這我不打算跟你爭論下去我要講的是什麼我要講的是說今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講檢察官保留法官保留是為了打詐這個目標很宏大我支持打詐"},{"start":6479.249,"end":6491.031,"text":"可是至少你要做到一件事情你事後總要通知當事人吧不知道主席喔這個問題因為前面我先做很多澄清喔你事後你事後總要通知當事人吧要不要"},{"start":6493.254,"end":6508.044,"text":"要不要我今天被科徵了我被找到GPS了事前你說因為打詐的一個一個所謂戰隊征防的速率效率我們那個監聽就委員通知當事人嗎那這個也可以有有一到有沒有嗎現在有沒有規範嗎那個監聽這麼速那個我監聽而已啊我講的是科徵我講的是GPS我講的是通訊記錄我講的是"},{"start":6515.109,"end":6519.092,"text":"今天網路的紀錄我講的是24小時內你不要跟我跳跳跳跳概念我講的是24小時內沒有法官保留欸你還是說你24小時內是法官保留是嗎?"},{"start":6530.118,"end":6552.379,"text":"當然不是嘛所以部長說真的齁你今天昨天為什麼出這個狀況就是我問A你要跳到B回答才會造成昨天的情況我沒有認為你說謊但是你的答詢模式我認為大有問題最後我還要再強調一件事情你事前說你今天為了犯罪增防的效率齁我跟你講說真的這帽子很大啦我也不知道怎麼跟你講啦"},{"start":6553.666,"end":6574.85,"text":"但是人權保障的部分你至少事後要做到你可以答應我今天不管是GPS只要被調到的人只要是今天通訊監察所謂的通訊記錄跟網路記錄被調到的人你案件偵辦結束之後發個通知書跟他講說你被柯真了你被通聯記錄了你被網路記錄了你做不做得到做不到修法"},{"start":6578.735,"end":6591.943,"text":"真的啊事後你不要跟我講人力不足喔事後人力不足變成藉口事前是因為犯罪征訪我給你這個空間但事後連這個都不做我跟你講就是偷懶兩個字以上謝謝接下來請審委員伯陽發言"},{"start":6618.348,"end":6618.829,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":6623.909,"end":6646.465,"text":"委員好你好部長我今天不會花太多時間因為我大概就只有兩個重點而已因為畢竟這一次的這個通訊保障的地方沒有那麼多那這一次就兩個點第一個當然就是這個使用者資料這一次你們做了一些改變然後再來就是有這個所謂的網路流量紀錄所以我大概就問這兩個點那第一個點就是通訊使用者因為按照現行的法條看起來就是"},{"start":6647.285,"end":6675.645,"text":"只要有關聯性就可以做調取所以我們看到這個法條現在是說有事實主任那檢察官跟司法這個檢察官就可以直接調取那因為這個在之前我們看一下數據就是說大概一年這個其實因為他本來有這個檢察官保留或法官保留的狀況之下我們看這一個核准大概九成九成那跟法官跟檢察官還有一點落差但是一年呢就還是會有400多件是在檢察官或法官還是被駁回"},{"start":6677.246,"end":6694.245,"text":"現在如果走這一套那這個應該就不止400多件了應該會更多 對不對因為畢竟警察人更多嘛所以在這個狀況之下目前我不是說這個完全不行但這個一定要有配套措施還有救濟那這種配套跟救濟現在法務部會怎麼去設計它"},{"start":6695.475,"end":6716.63,"text":"那目前我們設計就是其實是我們為什麼使用者資料這是一個身份資料我也都很清楚那所以最基本就是一個開付的一個資料而已就是基本資料那我想這個最隱私權的這個干預是極為輕微那我們為什麼一定要讓檢警能夠直接去去調取不需要法官的許可因為這個"},{"start":6719.15,"end":6742.962,"text":"這一定要有特定的一個案件的一個存在然後有它的一個收集的一個必要性對它會有一個案件嘛但是它這個案件本身不是說腐爛的對社會大眾就可以廣泛的說這個這個是要負責任這個是要負民行事或其他的一個責任的所以這個使用資料不能夠隨便亂掉一定要有前提有案件而且有必要性而且有關聯性常用掉"},{"start":6743.902,"end":6767.074,"text":"這個案件跟關聯性這件事情因為你可以看到就是說我們左邊這邊是整理了一些新聞就是說之前警察有些濫用各自的狀況那當然我們 這些都被辦了對所以目前來講就是說但是因為這個事實存在嘛也就是說當這個制度被推出去之後呢被濫用的可能性會提高所以不管是我覺得剛剛因為剛剛前面我也有提到通知我覺得這個通知不一定是我們要採取的做法但"},{"start":6767.594,"end":6792.713,"text":"不管是通知還是救濟因為今天如果你沒有前階段的通知你大概也很難去做後面的救濟所以濫權他不一定要在程序上做保障比如說在警察的教育訓練啊什麼等等之類的這一類要因為這個濫權的可能性會很高那如果我們在盤點的狀況之下我覺得這件事情是一定要注意隱私親愛很小這件事情我覺得大概跟等一下我要問的比較不一樣但這件事情我覺得要注意這是第一點"},{"start":6793.433,"end":6812.461,"text":"第二點就是在這個網路流量資料因為之前我們是有這個最重本刑三年以上這樣的限制那這個限制我看修法理由有提到說這個就是會造成一些困擾就是說有些案件沒有辦法辦但現在很麻煩的地方就是說如果這個限制拿掉的話會變成說"},{"start":6814.762,"end":6828.663,"text":"因為他本身沒有這個重刑的這個限制或者這種中度案件的限制變成說他現在要做這件事情變得很方便那因為網路流量資料這邊我就不進入細節因為他的這一邊的這個修法有提到這個叫做"},{"start":6830.325,"end":6859.062,"text":"通訊設備識別資料這個識別資料其實比較不清楚因為他可能包含device ID他可能包含IMEI他可能也可能有MSI因為他沒有講清楚所以這些東西如果去跟IP來做拼湊的話這個能夠造成的隱私情案會比較大那我這邊有因為時間的關係我這邊是一個小小的建議就是說因為我知道因為實務上會認為最重本刑三年以上這樣會造成很多案件你們要做這個調查沒辦法調查嘛"},{"start":6860.223,"end":6880.34,"text":"那能不能用反面排除的比如說我們今天排除最重本刑三年以下那我這樣講是因為量能問題因為如果按照比如說像現在有藐視國會罪那公然侮辱現在比較沒那麼容易成立還有誹謗這些比較輕的犯罪如果全部都可以走這一條路的話他有可能到最後是警方沒有辦法負荷啦"},{"start":6880.78,"end":6881.401,"text":"因為時間的關係部長就簡短回答一下"},{"start":6905,"end":6908.922,"text":"其實我們是認為有取消這個限制比如說我們那個引誘兒少從事色情業的這個都是很輕如果說這個不拿掉這個都沒辦法掉通年那這個兒少的這個屬於那個從事色情業這一種的這個是我們社會大眾關注的問題那另外像脫逃罪這也是輕罪"},{"start":6925.051,"end":6952.405,"text":"那個那個這個像我們上次那個殺警案這個如果說沒有掉這個這個這個紀錄的話我們沒辦法即時的去去直接就就就做一個偵查的一個一個啟啟動那會延路時機那我想這個還是有他一個必要性啊那我想我們這部分其實掉這些的資料這是一個爭吵最早最早的一個開端而已至少知道知道希望能夠能夠知道這個這個被告的一個一個身份吼這個基本的一個資料"},{"start":6953.205,"end":6978.696,"text":"那我想這部分對人權的一個侵害非常小而且基於公共利益的維護我們認為是有必要的那我覺得兩個點第一個就是說法定刑本身輕重這個必須就是還是要跟隱私清單做衡量這個是還是要做的第二個就是濫權他不一定是在法務部這邊做但就是我剛剛講的他在第一線的教育訓練這件事情這部分我們來加強對這個可能要跨部會要去討論一下就這兩個點我覺得要稍微注意尤其在進入主條的時候好謝謝"},{"start":6981.172,"end":6996.68,"text":"謝謝省委員 謝謝政部長那也提醒一下今天的列席機關代表未來我們在進入法條的主條討論的時候可能會有類似今天委員關切的部分以修正動議提出或者以附帶決議的方式表達那請各列席機關代表要先譽為因應接下來有請黃委員國昌發言"},{"start":7017.43,"end":7022.935,"text":"請政部長和理聽長兩位好今天針對通訊保障的修正可以說是我們在科技偵查法律授權非常重要的一環"},{"start":7041.148,"end":7066.402,"text":"不過因為昨天就已經有民間思考團體聲明說通訊保障侵害隱私資訊自主當然我看到民間思考會有這樣的聲明我有點驚訝所以我就必須要具體的看說通訊保障的草案侵害隱私跟資訊自主指的到底是什麼我們等一下進一步的來說明"},{"start":7068.36,"end":7093.159,"text":"不過昨天基層檢察官團體看到了民間司改會的聲明顯然是非常的憤怒因為我很少看到我們基層檢察官用這麼重的詞要他們停止禍害國家這樣繼續搞下去是在形同保護、詐團基層檢察官的聲明部長有沒有看過這個有看過認不認同"},{"start":7095.259,"end":7101.005,"text":"這個反應就是基層檢察在辦案的一個困境是啊基層檢察官的心聲部長認不認同"},{"start":7102.995,"end":7128.409,"text":"這個的確是反映事實面的一些的震撼的一個困境我們具體的看因為我不喜歡討論抽象的問題用形容詞形容來形容去一點意義都沒有我們具體的看這次通訊法的修正是不是真的有去侵害人權的部分還是在打擊犯罪兼顧保障人權的前提下所必要我想這件事情要回顧在去年夏天的時候"},{"start":7129.309,"end":7134.224,"text":"我們非常多包括現在已經當政委的台大法律系的教授林明新"},{"start":7135.51,"end":7162.209,"text":"還有很多台大跟州委員的學者就說應該要立法授權設備端的通訊監察跟網路流量記錄理由講得非常清楚但設備端的通訊監察也就是所謂的小木馬大木馬小木馬部長分得清楚嗎分得清楚嗎那我們這一次連小木馬都沒有放進來就是擔心這一步如果跨出去了"},{"start":7163.123,"end":7192.026,"text":"我們對於有關於通訊監察資料相關目前現有機制的保障是不是能夠做得充足有很多人很擔心啊所以最後你們草案也不敢把通訊端的設備端的通訊監察放進來我這樣說對不對這個小木馬這部分那個原來的草案那部分因為有人權侵略各界有這樣的一個聲音所以這部分我們就拿掉了"},{"start":7192.54,"end":7204.511,"text":"德國刑事訴訟法有沒有?德國刑事法有有嘛我們看外國的立法例因為台灣在現實執行面上面的資訊夠管大家沒有信心啊"},{"start":7205.478,"end":7232.875,"text":"所以這一步從保護國家安全的角度來講我認同學者他們所提出來的呼籲有必要但現實上的執行機制大家很擔心嘛所以連行政部門這一次都不敢提導致我們這次通訊法其實只有修網路流量紀錄嘛那我們要調取網路流量紀錄這件事情為什麼有必要2002年8月培洛西訪台的時候我們關鍵基礎設施遭到駭客攻擊"},{"start":7234.755,"end":7260.88,"text":"針對這種駭客攻擊如果要進一步追查的時候網路流量紀錄有沒有必要性這個有有嘛好再來我們在2020年年底的時候啊突然有人在網路上面啊散播恐嚇的訊息說要血染台灣那個時候可以破案最重要的關鍵是不是剛好一類電信他們在抽樣的時候剛好有留那個網路流量紀錄"},{"start":7262.729,"end":7288.283,"text":"實際上面偵辦的時候是不是這個樣子對這個有當初如果沒有留這個網路流量紀錄的話這個案子可以破案嗎這個有流量紀錄的話可以讓我們這個破案區的破案好我們就進一步啊來看但問題是網路流量紀錄的修法躺在行政院躺了非常多年今天終於放到檯面上我們針對網路流量紀錄是不是跟通訊的紀錄一樣到目前為止採取法官保留"},{"start":7289.714,"end":7311.762,"text":"對,是法官保留是採取法官保留嘛那這件事情要講清楚啊有法官在最後把關那個網路流量紀錄啊事實上對於個人資訊比通訊的內容所謂通訊的內容是我今天打個電話給部長結果我手機被監聽了我們兩個講什麼話全部都會被聽到嘛對吧"},{"start":7313.275,"end":7328.686,"text":"對這個是監聽的內容那這個那個就有關於監聽的部分是不是也是法官保留這個是因為他對隱私權比較大所以一定要法官保留是嘛那以網路流量紀錄跟我們通訊的內容哪一個對個人隱私權的侵害比較強"},{"start":7330.011,"end":7355.249,"text":"那個通訊內容對嘛那所以如果我們第一步賣出去的時候就針對網路流量紀律的部分我們還是採取法官保留嘛但有另外一件事情大家比較擔心的就是通訊使用者的資料通訊使用者的資料這支手機是屬於誰的住在哪裡這個是屬於個人資料的部分嘛我們目前通保法的規定是不是採取法官保留"},{"start":7356.701,"end":7382.74,"text":"目前是是嘛但我現在為什麼我們提了草案我們採取檢察官保留你們現在一步啊從法官保留跳到什麼司法警察官也可以嘛所以大家會擔心嘛那如果說我們這一步不要邁了這麼大步在兼顧人權保障的情況之下採取檢察官保留這樣的立場部長支不支持"},{"start":7387.591,"end":7388.452,"text":"我們是支持行政院函"},{"start":7417.208,"end":7438.476,"text":"所以你不贊成採取員長官保留?因為因為那是有可能就是說那個人頭那個門號非常多啦吼那要迅速調如果說他還要找檢察官也人力不會啊你如果說這種大型的詐欺犯罪人頭門號基本上都是報檢察官指揮在辦案啊怎麼會是警察在沒有檢察官統一指揮的情況之下像無頭蒼蠅一樣去辦"},{"start":7440.057,"end":7469.457,"text":"那個那個跟委員報告齁那個就是重大案件報警跟指揮我想這部分齁都這個是純粹檢察官的主導齁那做一般案件主要是考慮到人頭賬戶非常多如果每一件都找檢察官檢察官就是整個人力負荷可能會比較吃緊沒關係啊這個很會牽涉到人權保障跟打擊犯罪中間的平衡點嘛那我問過非常多的檢察官啊他們都贊成那不過部長支持行政院函的立場沒關係我們到委員會審查進一步講"},{"start":7470.657,"end":7490.771,"text":"我支持打擊犯罪就像我今天提案說明的一樣我們不可以讓壞人精神抖擻覺得好人累得跟狗一樣然後那些壞人吃香喝辣結果我們辛苦的基層的檢警在後面苦苦追趕這我絕對支持但在另外一方面在另外一方面"},{"start":7491.57,"end":7515.591,"text":"如果有不肖的檢警跟犯罪集團勾結的話這件事情絕對不能容忍一定要嚴懲到底嚴肅的追辦部長同不同意?同意來我們繼續來看郭澤民洗錢上百億的八八會館的主人之前你們前任的法務部怎麼縱放的?郭澤民跑掉喔"},{"start":7520.041,"end":7543.349,"text":"檢察官去過他的招待所結果你們前一任的法務部長軟趴趴問他什麼說要追究檢察官的責任推三阻四的結果不只只有郭澤民我發現台灣很奇怪洗錢洗越多的有招待所的檢警關係都很好郭澤民拖了快一年才抓回來現在換屠城文"},{"start":7544.309,"end":7561.52,"text":"徒成文去年11月檢方發動搜索的時候他竟然跑了欸他們兩個有什麼共通之處徒成文也有設招搜索啊檢察官也去過啊警察也去過啊到現在人還沒有抓回來來我要問的就郭澤民的案子檢察官可以一面限制出境一邊放人嗎"},{"start":7573.24,"end":7581.104,"text":"光澤平的案子來看一下二零二二年三月到十一月都已經盡管囉限制出境出海喔"},{"start":7582.658,"end":7607.453,"text":"結果他18號26號要出境的時候海關通知檢察官檢察官說放人這樣辦案正常嗎來請教部長您當過檢察長啊對犯罪偵查失誤應該非常的熟悉啊我搞不懂檢察官一方面限制出境出海一方面放人結果放人的檢察官去過郭澤民的招待所這是什麼跟什麼啊這種事情不需要嚴肅檢討嗎來請部長"},{"start":7612.52,"end":7637.853,"text":"他這部分那個檢察官那部分那監察院也彈劾那現在是移送到懲戒法院在審理中的對嘛部長你不會覺得很諷刺嗎當初我們相信法務部相信檢察官評鑑委員會結果兩個跟檢察官最有關係的軟趴趴反而現在是最不受社會信任的監察院最後把他彈劾了您不會覺得很諷刺嗎"},{"start":7638.974,"end":7667.587,"text":"除了這個以外我們再繼續往下看怎麼這麼巧徒成文來請部長仔細看一下他的犯罪歷程2019年的時候檢警開始偵辦他地下會對洗錢罪嫌2020年7月檢警到他私人的招待所你光看這個時序啊你就會覺得匪夷所思啊一個在被調查地下會對跟洗錢的人我們的檢察官跟警察"},{"start":7668.989,"end":7693.038,"text":"還呼朋引伴到他的招待所去可以這樣搞喔結果等到要對他執行搜索具體的時候他已經跑了怎麼跑的有沒有內線消息怎麼這麼厲害又跑了這件事情啊法務部偵辦的進度如何跟大家說明一下"},{"start":7695.114,"end":7697.495,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":7724.084,"end":7739.134,"text":"當這麼離譜的狀況出現的時候法務部就躲在檢察官個案偵查後面有沒有一個基本的態度啊所謂基本的態度是這種行為絕不允許法務部的立場絕不寬待嚴懲嚴辦這樣的立場部長可不可以公開宣誓"},{"start":7745.684,"end":7771.426,"text":"我們保護部的立場是不允許我們所有的這些檢察官及辦案人員齁在偵辦個案去有接受一個招待的一個情形那我想這部分我...啊就有了啊就有了啊問題是有了以後你們的態度是什麼嘛你們的立場是什麼嘛你們具體的作為是什麼嘛我們會責請那個那個台高檢署我們再來做了解調查"},{"start":7772.953,"end":7791.52,"text":"這個案子我會持續的看第一個屠城文什麼時候抓回來第二個他怎麼跑的我們都尊重檢察官的偵辦但是不要以為新聞熱度過偵辦一年兩年三年四年無疾而終石層大海這個案子會成為石層大海嗎會不會石層大海屠城文抓得回來嗎"},{"start":7802.569,"end":7812.634,"text":"當初怎麼跑的洗錢上百億欸謝謝洗錢上百億欸我們再修洗錢防治法再修科技偵查的授權"},{"start":7814.13,"end":7832.289,"text":"我們就是希望落實到具體個案的時候這種離譜的狀況不要發生嘛我希望部長齁新的部長新的跡象硬起來啊讓全國人民對我們減掉的偵辦啦是有信心的嚴懲犯罪打擊不法特別是這種洗錢上百億的大亨可以嗎好謝謝黃委員謝謝部長謝謝廳長"},{"start":7847.022,"end":7874.838,"text":"好我們請下一位我們鍾嘉賓召委主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生邱青英法務部正部長還有國家通信傳播委員會的蔡處長"},{"start":7876.209,"end":7902.687,"text":"以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處的陳科長好請部長、處長、科長委員好部長好、處長好、科長好今天我的標題網路版的通聯紀錄有助於主詐跟打詐但通報版的授權應配套救濟保障這也是很多委員關切的首先我們來看一下先了解一下部長對這個相關的認知下一頁"},{"start":7904.828,"end":7919.612,"text":"這是一個中研院的學術研究他是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動他這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口這是以手機的所在位置去取得讓他去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號的時候的個資"},{"start":7924.193,"end":7942.068,"text":"去對應到他的戶籍業縣人口分析這些人住在哪區到了早上這個人移動到哪區我先請教一下我們的先請教蔡處長請問你認為這些手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究這是可以允許的嗎"},{"start":7944.036,"end":7968.255,"text":"是,如果說他已經去識別化,有辦法再連接到這個所謂的一個個人資料的一個人權的話那陳科長我請教一下,像這樣的一個研究不管是基於學術研究或是商業統計,如果在當時手機門號的公司跟申請人用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意,那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私?"},{"start":7973.319,"end":7980.604,"text":"我申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司我有這個約定說這個可以從一做商業應用或者做學術研究可以嗎?"},{"start":7991.017,"end":7998.182,"text":"基本上如果是有經過用戶同意的話是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇是在那個範疇"},{"start":8019.597,"end":8042.103,"text":"他能顯示輪廓不能回推個人部長你到底瞭解這樣的一個經常性的應用嗎部長你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎這個市場有這樣的一個應用好那我接下來要問到你了往下看其實呢手機訊號用於商業或學術以及犯罪偵查的區別我大概簡單的闡明一下基於商業的目的或學術研究呢他通常呢是根據各執法及"},{"start":8042.91,"end":8071.82,"text":"契約的約定那原則要當事人同意那你看到這麼一群人他是分析群體的輪廓他大概知道說什麼特性的人在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現誰具體誰他去識別他不知道但是我們犯罪偵查就不同了我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者在這些通聯的網路的通聯記錄當中我要找到什麼我要根據刑訴跟通保法的過去呢內容依照法律的規定找出幾種第一個特定的嫌疑人"},{"start":8072.6,"end":8093.354,"text":"但是我要區隔出什麼?潛在的受害人 有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的以及共犯以外的第三人 比如說家人、商業網絡上的其他無相關的客戶 是不是這樣子?所以這是我們在手機訊號上就現在說的網路的這個通訊流量或相關的通聯記錄 在使用上的目的是不一樣的 對不對?"},{"start":8094.435,"end":8116.043,"text":"所以正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人所以我們就必須要法律上授權上有包括檢察官保留法官保留跟一個必要的後面的救濟保障是不是這樣的原因是嗎請就麥跟我回答好是好那這樣我們往下看其實目前詐騙的前三名檢訊電話跟社群媒體社群媒體越來越多人使用了"},{"start":8116.423,"end":8142.961,"text":"其實電商平台或通訊軟體的電子郵件都是屬於電信或網路詐欺所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂就是因為我們的數位科技啊通訊非常的發達往下看所以我們舉這個例子以賴群來吸金詐騙我們叫這個案有個民眾失業了他上網有人邀請他加入個賴的投資群組成員當中其他的人跟他畫家場卸下心防成員的其他人然後慢慢的人就講到了什麼講到了有關股票啦虛擬貨幣的投資訊息要花錢加入專案"},{"start":8146.744,"end":8161.601,"text":"但是呢你給他的錢之後呢他就要叫你說你要退群跟著顧問學習操作等到他投了40萬那退了群學本無歸連被誰騙了都不知道部長你瞭解類似這樣的個案經常發生的情況嗎這個瞭解有齁好往下看齁"},{"start":8162.322,"end":8184.793,"text":"所以說警方或檢調怎麼調查呢首先嫌犯他既然涉及電信詐騙他一定有受害人受害人就報案警察受理之後他要去調查他要去跟電信業者調取使用者的資料這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平台配合他能確定嫌犯的真實身份是不是是這就是為什麼你們的條文當中為什麼要取得用戶的個人資料"},{"start":8185.213,"end":8185.553,"text":" ．二、繼續併案審查二、繼續併案審查"},{"start":8206.852,"end":8233.197,"text":"時間頻率讓來判斷他聯絡的對象是他的家人還是共犯還是車手還是被害人所以我要再確認一次調取網路的流量記錄是不是是只能看到聯絡的記錄看不到內容看不到內容是啊你們就要必須根據外觀來判斷嗎是這樣嗎就是從這些裡面去做判斷所以這也是為什麼你們需要取得這個流量記錄的原因往下看其實我們目前呢在沒有通訊保障修改之前平台業者怎麼回應警方檢調他的"},{"start":8234.963,"end":8254.109,"text":"要求提供這些個資,譬如說我們搜索Dcard、FB,有17個重案個資,LINE也要搜索票,我們看一下,FB、IG,怎麼樣,重案就提供,LINE的話要搜索票,Dcard要搜索票,是不是這樣子,實務上是不是這樣子?是。是,您也知道還是要問副署長才知道,您確定是這樣嗎?"},{"start":8257.732,"end":8276.452,"text":"目前這些大的平台他的態度是不一樣的為什麼因為沒有法律的授權他們可以拒絕是不是這樣好那往下看所以目前我們看通訊保障第11條之一我們這第一項當中我們就看到了其實這裡面有三個重點第一個三年以上我們這次最重本刑三年以上的拿掉了"},{"start":8276.994,"end":8297.541,"text":"那把檢察官保留呢擴充到也提供給司法警察官那最後呢書面和請法院調取票現在這個也拿掉了是不是這樣子沒有法官保留了嘛那使用者呢從檢察官發動到司法警察官都會發動那麼連本行的規定剛剛結尾委員都問過了請問一下你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼"},{"start":8299.731,"end":8320.527,"text":"這個第一這個是本來就我們德國跟美國的立法力本來就沒有這一種的而且這個這個完全沒有涉及到在你們今天的報告說明當中有收到德國的刑法有這樣的一個立法力就是這個東西是只屬於司法警察官就可以開始發動的是不是這樣對所以你們是參照德國的例子德國美國"},{"start":8321.187,"end":8342.777,"text":"好那我來看一下往下看喔但是我們看一下我舉個例子齁我舉例啦我常常去捐血捐血到時候他要填一個單子他說你同不同意你這些個資可以做學術研究我同意你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做做宣導我說啊可以啦鼓勵大家捐血嘛那你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚我說那不用了"},{"start":8343.9,"end":8358.553,"text":"為什麼捐血的時候他要尊重我但是如果說今天衛福部基於疫病的調查要做疫調他擔心我的血有汙染他強迫捐血中心取得我的個資瞭解我這捐血的流向你覺得有沒有可以可不可以有沒有法律的依據"},{"start":8360.626,"end":8379.702,"text":"這個是屬於個人資料保護法對不對?這個不是我們通報法的?部長可能我了解您的理解的問題的認知好我這樣講齁這個根據傳染病防治法就可以啦根據傳染病防治法基於公益的目的他可以為了瞭解我的血液的分布的流向他可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料"},{"start":8380.575,"end":8392.861,"text":"同樣的道理我們剛剛講我們個人跟手機業者的這些個人的契約內容我有的同意有的不同意但是基於我們犯罪的偵查你們認為有法律授權當然可以拿到嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":8393.922,"end":8417.308,"text":"當然可以去取得嘛前提是要法律授權嘛但是法律授權之外有什麼要求呢我們往下看喔修正草案的第三之一條的第三項這個網路的流量紀錄剛剛一直在談到了沈博洋委員也問到了這些內容細微的差別對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的所以他剛剛很細緻的問到了一些問題你們回去要趕快的把它區分清楚同意嗎"},{"start":8420.029,"end":8427.167,"text":"接下來本來的原則是由檢警申請經法官同意修正了但是有些重罪就無需法官保留為什麼"},{"start":8428.086,"end":8455.664,"text":"因為急迫性而且是要快速處理快速處理好但是不管是取得他的流量紀錄或者甚至只是瞭解他的使用的資料那麼被調查人士會知道嗎剛剛一直在問這個問題啊莊委員也是啊還有誰還有羅委員也是啊所以我是覺得你們對這個部分有沒有一個想法那個整個要區分那個要層次性的一個處理嗎對流量紀錄比較影響大對對他一定要通知嘛但是條文當中有寫到嗎"},{"start":8457.805,"end":8458.126,"text":"昨天我們在審我們的這個這個"},{"start":8474.358,"end":8489.724,"text":"科技偵查法的時候我們有說其實相較於科技偵查法只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具但是到這個部分通訊保障的部分因為雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察但是對於各自的使用對於流量的紀錄的取得"},{"start":8492.285,"end":8516.205,"text":"這會對當事人的隱私跟人權有些影響所以我請你們要趕快去思考條文雖然目前的願滿條文並沒有明定但是後續的執行的細則你們要趕快的去思考程序上要予以規範包括警務人員的教育訓練要予以增強正確的觀念那我希望在待會後面逐條的部分呢是不是你們對於可能的"},{"start":8516.875,"end":8532.224,"text":"復代決議你們要先行研議可以嗎OK那最後的結論我們同意強化偵查效能來達到打造的目標但是我們也希望你們完善各自的保護並考量告知跟就近的機制這個是我們每個人遇到這種情況我可能是"},{"start":8533.22,"end":8553.424,"text":"在犯罪政策當中少到的可能的一個無辜的第三人但是我有權利知道我的個資曾經被這樣的當然是準個資啦進入這樣的一個犯罪政策的使用我有權利知道你同意嗎在這邊我們還是我們會去再做釐清好那趕快好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝鍾嘉斌昭偉那也謝謝部長的備詢"},{"start":8567.435,"end":8580.826,"text":"好接下來我們請油耗委員油耗油耗委員不在我們請賴世保委員賴世保賴世保委員不在我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們請吳釗偉中線吳釗偉中線吳釗偉中線不在吼那我們請吳委員私謠發言"},{"start":8588.226,"end":8604.613,"text":"在這裡先做預告待會我們委員會發言之後我們再進行後續的議程處理可能會參照昨天的方式先進行條文的宣讀然後再休息那宣讀時間大概要20分鐘的時間讓大家有充分的時間休息好請好謝謝主席部長請"},{"start":8610.419,"end":8610.719,"text":"委員好"},{"start":8634.011,"end":8657.536,"text":"其實我認為確實在執法的部分在更有層次的一些分析上我們還要在條文當中再做補強好下一頁所以這我也分享昨天我為什麼覺得現在打詐司法必須先通過確實我們面臨了詐欺案的逐年攀升已經是各類刑案之冠"},{"start":8658.436,"end":8677.71,"text":"而當中以右邊這個表格五年來詐欺罪共貞節了五十萬七千八百五十九人當中百分之六十三六成三是電信詐欺恐嚇案最多所以我們需要強化偵辦的工具我同意下一頁"},{"start":8678.7,"end":8697.769,"text":"而當中呢、詐欺案件是網路犯罪之慣這是我進一步去調閱內政部警政署的資料請看我左邊的這個圖四大類的網路犯罪詐欺、妨礙名譽、妨礙電腦使用以及侵害智慧財產權四大類"},{"start":8700.05,"end":8727.082,"text":"當中呢後三類都是逐年下降的有的下降的比例是越來越高譬如說侵害這個智慧財產權其實它已經下降到只剩下6.9%這個是有很好的一個我們透過各種管道去做宣導所以這個制裁權的部分已經下降很多但是唯有一類就是詐欺類在網路犯罪上是一直的攀升"},{"start":8728.082,"end":8740.669,"text":"來到三乘四來到三乘四所以說我們當然也不得不支持啊今天的工具讓你們更能靈活的使用好下一頁"},{"start":8741.792,"end":8761.007,"text":"所以這是這一次的修法重點我就不再贅述下一頁那也透過這一次的增修我們可以擴大實施通訊監察之罪的大概是十三部法律那數十項都可以來擴大使用我也不贅述下一頁"},{"start":8762.308,"end":8776.407,"text":"那剛剛我非常同意就順著剛剛我們嘉賓趙薇所說的雖然我們通保法的修法之後我們不涉及內容但是畢竟對於隱私的影響"},{"start":8777.833,"end":8788.637,"text":"不可說不到啦所以執法一般來講喔因為您剛也提到說很多的包括當事人通知啦確保人權啦這些會用執法來規範一般來講是法律通過之後六個月之內提出執法但是我認為"},{"start":8795.339,"end":8817.897,"text":"如果你不能夠更早把司法的方向或者是期程在這裡承諾我們早一點來完備其實我們要授權給你連我自己是執政黨的委員我都覺得有所保留所以相關的司法有多少你們在進入研議或者是已經有的期程是如何來就教於部長"},{"start":8822.182,"end":8848.069,"text":"你要先讓我們知道安我們的心喔否則就是一個空白的授權這個執法齁這部分齁一十四條這草案十四條之一的第六項齁這部分執法這部分我們還是法務部還是要會同會同內會有幾個相關執法這個有會是需要那個舊式法條規定以及是需要以及是需要是幾個你們現在都沒有方向某某標標"},{"start":8853.859,"end":8859.143,"text":"你們去準備一下資料好嗎?我們等一下逐條咧。因為我們每個條文相關...當然當然啦。那事情細則你會有相關的會有幾個事情細則?"},{"start":8865.792,"end":8883.894,"text":"就一個就好了就一個就夠了是嗎一個授權的一個執法那你會拖到6個月之後修法完備6個月之後才推出嗎我們會努力在6個月內完成我覺得6個月是給你最長的期限這個一旦下去"},{"start":8884.975,"end":8885.015,"text":"二（二（"},{"start":8915.495,"end":8941.155,"text":"網路的恐嚇性假投資信件資安的攻擊性還有我現在要論述的就是兒少性私密影像的部分昨天呢未還委員會我也有提案針對兒少性剝削的這個相關的條例的協商已經有擴大要求我這裡來跟您報告昨天通過的結論也就是"},{"start":8942.336,"end":8958.411,"text":"被害人不需要自己去搜集性影像被害的那些部分讓查緝犯罪更有利的話就必須建立一個性影像數位的鑑識資料庫這是昨天的結論而且也新增了三個犯罪樣態"},{"start":8961.092,"end":8982.058,"text":"購買、下載都一併要被懲處就是無故重置兒少性影像支付對價持有兒少性影像以及支付對價來觀賞兒少的性影像這個是昨天協商完的我是建議部長要去follow我們昨天的另外一套相關法律的一個協商進度下一頁"},{"start":8983.258,"end":8998.338,"text":"我們來看看兒少性剝削的犯罪。左邊這個表格告訴了我們,兒少性剝削的案例有七成是運用網路社群、通訊軟體或其他的社群平台來犯罪。"},{"start":8999.039,"end":9016.753,"text":"所以當然社群平台的偵辦很重要而右邊這個數字我覺得非常的驚悚這是美國的資料顯示全球的兒少性剝削的影像居然來自台灣IP的通報數量"},{"start":9019.475,"end":9047.077,"text":"從2019的三萬三千多件到2022來到七萬兩千九百零二件成長了二點三倍我不想讓台灣慣上這種是不是兒少性剝削影像的來源國我們要努力去洗刷這樣子的一個罪名所以網路的IP成為調查的重中之重下一頁下一頁"},{"start":9048.462,"end":9064.936,"text":"再下一頁我個人一直有一個遺憾當我看到為了打詐防詐抗詐行政院可以一次提出四法一個專法一個科證法一個通保法對不對我們四法一起來處理它"},{"start":9066.497,"end":9092.69,"text":"但是呢對於性影像的犯罪的雙軌防治目前只對於兒少的受害案件建立起比較高的防護作為跟偵辦的行動的增加但是對於成人受害的案件這一次並沒有一致性的跟上來所以我是在這裡提出呼籲跟要求"},{"start":9093.71,"end":9116.071,"text":"我過去都在其他委員會我在教育文化委員會我沒有機會跟法務部有比較多的這個溝通跟建議的機會有關性影像相關的犯罪目前是散落在四個法律嘛刑法還有兒少性剝削防止條例性侵害犯罪防治法還有犯罪被害人的保護法"},{"start":9116.872,"end":9125.791,"text":"其實吳思瑤本人我本席我一直在倡議我已經倡議了兩年多我們需要有一個信"},{"start":9127.344,"end":9155.411,"text":"信私密影像犯罪防治的專法才能夠從兒少到成人從提高法則到前端所有的建制預防調查偵辦跟刑度我一直認為要有一部專法就比較我們打架司法有一個更新的高位代表國家的重視那我不曉得部長因為您新上任你對於我的這個倡議"},{"start":9157.171,"end":9170.66,"text":"我已經講了三年了兩年多了您認不認為可以來演繹有一個專法來擴大針對性私密影像的犯罪防治不只現在著重而少對於成人的也要一起來強化防護"},{"start":9172.625,"end":9173.506,"text":"我都知道啊。我都參與啊。"},{"start":9190.423,"end":9203.153,"text":"因為現在你看到都在保護兒少的比較多可是事實上性影像被流散被重置被有價的關懶的受害者多數是成人"},{"start":9204.254,"end":9232.237,"text":"所以這部分我們這次在通訊保障也有修正就是這部分委員關心這個承認的這部分也列入了列入了那個通訊監察大家都頭痛一頭腳痛一腳好沒有關係我不會放棄努力我認為我看到了這樣一個犯罪行為的很不幸的它的發展趨勢就如同詐欺詐騙案類我們可以用一個更全觀的方式來統合性的處理它我還是認為我們可以研議一下好嗎"},{"start":9232.895,"end":9251.653,"text":"好謝謝委員好吧我們後續再努力好時間到謝謝謝謝吳委員謝謝部長所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":9252.674,"end":9273.162,"text":"委員陳冠廷、翁曉琳、吳宗憲所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆現在進行討論事項先請議事人員宣讀提案條文宣讀後而我們會休息到11點半再進行討論如有修正動議請一併宣讀請宣讀時間大約20分"},{"start":9277.472,"end":9297.153,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案行政院提案第三條之一除第一項首句末的者字刪除第二句句首的為電信使用人修正為指用戶或電信使用人第三句句首的電信系統修正為公眾電信網路"},{"start":9298.795,"end":9321.168,"text":"第二項手具中的支字刪除第二具具手的為電信使用者修正為指用戶或電信使用人令增訂第三項為本法所稱網路流量記錄指用戶或電信使用人使用電信服務後公眾電信網路所產生之通訊設備識別資料網際網路網址與位置"},{"start":9326.419,"end":9341.907,"text":"網際網路位置與位置、資訊、通訊時間、連線用量與封包數量、網域名稱、應用服務類型及協定等記錄、其餘未修正。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第三條之一對照行政院提案"},{"start":9342.927,"end":9362.804,"text":"除第三項第三具開始修正為公眾電信網路所產生之發送方與接送方之網際網路位置通訊起器時間通訊鋪協定封包大小及數量查詢與回應之網域名稱系統及其網"},{"start":9365.72,"end":9386.068,"text":"及其域名解析器與域名伺服器協力查詢資源等未涉及通訊內容之記錄其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第5條除第1項續文末的據點修正為分號第二款條文中"},{"start":9388.444,"end":9398.675,"text":"第109條第一項第三項第四項修正為第109條第一項及其未遂犯第四項令第121條後的第一項刪除第131條後的第一項刪除"},{"start":9403.735,"end":9420.55,"text":"第143條後的第一項刪除令本款後段修正為第256條第一項及其未遂範第二百五十七條第一項及其未遂範第二百九十八條第二項及其未遂範第三百條第三百零二條第一項第三項"},{"start":9421.491,"end":9442.149,"text":"第三百零二條之一第一項第三項第三百十九條之一第二項第三項及該二項之謂稅範第三百十九條之二第三百十九條之三第三百十九條之四第三百三十九條第三百三十九條之三第三百三十九條之四或第三百四十六條之最"},{"start":9443.922,"end":9464.882,"text":"第七款及第八款修正維期期貨交易法第112條第五項或第113條之罪。八、槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例第十二條第一項第二項及該二項之未遂犯第四項或第十三條第二項及其未遂犯第四項之罪。"},{"start":9465.723,"end":9480.544,"text":"第十款之第十三款修正為十農會法第四十七條之一第一項或第四十七條之二第一項第二項之罪十一漁會法第五十條之一第一項或第五十條之二第一項第二項之罪"},{"start":9481.685,"end":9493.488,"text":"二、兒童及少年性剝削防治條例第32條第1項、第3項、第4項及該3項之謂稅範、第36條第1項、第4項及該2項之謂稅範、第38條第1項、第3項及第4項之罪十三、洗錢防治法第19條、第20條或滋恐防治法第8條、第9條之罪"},{"start":9506.448,"end":9535.848,"text":"第14款條文中第二項後段修正為第4條第15款條文中第24條第二項後增定及其未遂犯令增定第19款至第21款為19國家安全法第7條第二項第三項及該二項之未遂犯之罪二十反滲透法第三條第四條之罪二十一人口販運防治法第二十九條第三十條第三十一條第三十三條之罪"},{"start":9536.768,"end":9549.255,"text":"其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第五條除第一項第二款條文中第121條後的第一項刪除第131條後的第一項刪除第143條後的第一項刪除並第七款條文中的第一項第二項刪除"},{"start":9561.687,"end":9576.878,"text":"第十三款修正為十三洗錢法洗錢防治法第十四條第一項第二項司恐防治法第八條之罪第十四款條文中第二項後段等字三除其餘未修正"},{"start":9579.505,"end":9603.948,"text":"行政院提案第六條除第一項中段修正為組織犯罪防治條例第三條洗錢防治法第十九條滋恐防治法第八條刑法第二百二十二條第二百二十六條第二百七十一條第三百零二條之一第三百二十五條第三百二十六條第三百二十八條第三百三十條第三百三十二條"},{"start":9605.009,"end":9631.648,"text":"第三百三十九條第三百三十九條之三或第三百三十九條之四其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條除第一項條文中洗錢防治法第十一條第一項第二項第三項修正為洗錢防治法第十四條第一項第二項滋恐防治法第八條其餘未修正行政院提案第十一條之一"},{"start":9634.085,"end":9647.8,"text":"檢察官司法警察官為偵查犯罪及收集資料由事實主任通訊使用者資料於本案之偵查有必要性及關聯性時得調取之檢察官"},{"start":9649.09,"end":9673.871,"text":"為偵查犯罪及收集資料由事實主任通信記錄或網路流量記錄於本案之偵查有必要性及關聯性時除有急迫情形不及事先申請者外應以書面申請該管法院合法調取票申請書之應記載事項準用前條第一項之規定司法警察官未調"},{"start":9674.931,"end":9689.763,"text":"調查犯罪及收集資料有事實主任通信記錄或網路流量記錄與本案之調查有必要性及關聯性時得依前項規定報請檢察官許可後向該管法院申請合法調取票"},{"start":9690.623,"end":9718.97,"text":"檢察官司法警察官為偵辦最新本行十年以上有期徒刑之罪強盜搶奪詐欺恐嚇辱人勒俗防害電腦使用脫逃及違反人口販運防治法槍砲彈藥刀械管制條例懲治走私條例毒品危害防治條例組織犯罪防治條例廢棄物清理法兒童及少年性剝削防治條例洗錢防治法國家安全法反滲透法"},{"start":9720.19,"end":9749.17,"text":"總統、副總統選舉罷免法公職人員選舉罷免法農會法第47條之一至第47條之三與會法第50條之一至第50條之三等罪有事時足認通訊紀錄或網路流量紀錄與本案之偵查有必要性及關聯性時得由檢察官依職權或司法檢察官經檢察官許可後調取通訊紀錄或網路流量紀錄不受前二項之限制"},{"start":9750.351,"end":9761.38,"text":"一、第二項急迫情形調取通訊紀錄或網路流量紀錄後應於二十四小時內向法院補行申請調取票。"},{"start":9763.305,"end":9781.904,"text":"掉取票應記載下列事項一按由二應掉取之通信記錄或網路流量記錄三有效期間欲其不得執行掉取及掉取後應將掉取票交回之意旨第二項第三項及第五項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符"},{"start":9784.039,"end":9808.546,"text":"和發調取票之程序不公開之有調取第七條之監察對象通訊紀錄網路流量紀錄或通訊使用者資料必要者由中理國家情報工作機關向電信事業設置公眾電信網路者或郵政事業調取不受前八項之限制檢察官司法警察官為偵查犯罪及收集證據"},{"start":9811.427,"end":9822.914,"text":"經用戶或電信使用人同意得調取其通訊使用者資料通信記錄或網路流量記錄不受第一項至第八項之限制"},{"start":9824.755,"end":9854.435,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條之一對照行政院提案除第一項修正為檢察官司法警察官為偵辦犯罪或收集資料有事實主任通訊使用者資料與本案之偵查之偵辦有必要性及關聯性時得由檢察官依職權或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後調取之司法警察官如任有及破信心者"},{"start":9855.897,"end":9860.687,"text":"得進行調取之,並於調取後立即報請檢察官許可。"},{"start":9861.721,"end":9879.912,"text":"第二項守據中及修正違或第三項守據中及修正違或第四項條文中段修正為廢棄物清理法總統副總統選舉罷免法公職人員選舉罷免法農會法第47條之一至第47條之三漁會法第50條之一至第50條之三農田水利會組織通則第38條之一、第38條之二等罪"},{"start":9890.979,"end":9917.437,"text":"第五項修正為第二項之急迫原因消滅後應向法院補刑申請調取票第十項前二具修正為檢察官司法檢察官為偵辦犯罪或收集證據得用戶或定性使用人之同意另末具修正為不受第一至八項之限制其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第十四條"},{"start":9918.84,"end":9925.865,"text":"除第二項手具具手的電信事業後增訂設置公眾電信網路者"},{"start":9928.666,"end":9949.34,"text":"第三項默劇中交通部修正為目的事業主管機關第四項手具聚首的電信事業之通訊系統修正為電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊監察建置機關指定者其通訊系統"},{"start":9951.755,"end":9962.195,"text":"第五項默劇中的交通部修正為目的事業主管機關其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條對照行政院提案"},{"start":9963.331,"end":9982.01,"text":"除第四項前二具合併修正為電信事業及經通訊監察建置機關指定之建置公眾電信網路者之通訊系統應具有配合執行監察之功能其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第14條之一"},{"start":9983.872,"end":9996.437,"text":"電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者由保存及協助執行調取通訊使用者資料通信記錄之義務電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊"},{"start":9998.244,"end":10024.778,"text":"監察至建置機關指定者由保存及協助執行調取網路流量記錄之義務電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者因協助執行調取前二項資料或記錄所生之必要費用於執行後得請求執行機關支付電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊監察至建置機關指定者其通訊或網路系統"},{"start":10026.079,"end":10046.716,"text":"應具有保存及執行調取網路流量記錄之功能並以公眾電信網路性能可予提供者為限電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者經通訊監察之建置機關指定者為建置保存網路流量記錄之系統"},{"start":10048.94,"end":10060.433,"text":"為建制保存網路流量紀錄之系統與維持保存及執行調取網路流量紀錄功能正常作業所生之必要費用由建制機關負擔"},{"start":10062.575,"end":10081.024,"text":"網路流量記錄系統之設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢之作業程序調取之項目監察費額及其他相關事項之辦法由法務部會同內政部並會商國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關定之"},{"start":10083.151,"end":10110.551,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第14條之一電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者由保存及協助執行調取通訊使用者資料通信記錄網路流量記錄之義務電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者之通訊或網路系統應具有保存及執行調取通信記錄及網路流量記錄之功能並以公眾電信網路性能可予提供者為限"},{"start":10112.052,"end":10126.068,"text":"電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者應協助執行調取通訊使用者資料通信記錄網路流量第一項記錄所生之必要費用於執行後得請求執行機關支付"},{"start":10127.029,"end":10153.426,"text":"電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者為設置符合前項功能保存網路流量紀錄之系統及維持保存及調取第一項網路流量紀錄功能正常作業所生之必要費用由建制機關負擔其費用由目的事業主管機關會商有關機關訂定公告之通訊使用者資料通信資"},{"start":10154.947,"end":10177.547,"text":"通訊紀錄及網路流量紀錄之保存方式保存期間查詢之作業程序調取之項目與費額及其他相關事項之辦法由目的事業主管機關會商有關機關定之。行政院提案第29條除第一款至第三款末的者自均三除"},{"start":10178.171,"end":10205.922,"text":"另第二款修正為二．電信事業設置公眾電信網路者或郵政事業人員基於提供公共電信、公眾電信網路或郵政服務之目的而依有關法令執行其餘未修正台灣民眾黨黨團提案第29條對照行政院提案除第一款至第三款末均增訂者自其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第31條"},{"start":10208.041,"end":10226.96,"text":"由協助執行通訊監察義務之電信事業設置公眾電信網路者及郵政事業違反第十四條第二項之規定者由該管目的事業主管機關處心台幣五十萬元以上二百五十萬元以下罰還經通知限期遵行而人不爭"},{"start":10228.141,"end":10254.999,"text":"而仍不遵行者按次處罰由保存及協助調取通訊使用者資料通信記錄或網路流量記錄義務之電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者違反第14條之一、第一項或第二項之規定者亦同對電信事業及設置公眾電信網路者之主管機關依本法所為之行政處分不符者直接適用行政訴訟程序"},{"start":10256.087,"end":10272.462,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第31條對照行政院提案第一項及第二項除第一項第二句末的之規定者者自刪除第三句句首的由該管該管二字刪除末句後增訂"},{"start":10273.779,"end":10293.36,"text":"並得廢止其特許許可登記或其公眾電信網路之網路設置核准及審驗合格證明之全部或一部第二項默劇中的或第二項等字刪除其餘同行政院提案第一項及第二項宣讀完畢"},{"start":10859.701,"end":10884.151,"text":"好繼續開會提案條文已宣布完畢現在進行討論事項並案審查行政院函請審議通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案等二案那麼本案經上午詢答後那各位委員我們就先大體討論請問委員是直接進入主條還是要先大體討論"},{"start":10887.372,"end":10913.277,"text":"有人煮這一頓嗎?那我們就省略大體討論直接進行主條那...抱歉我喘一下好那我們現在進行主條那麼首先是第三條之一有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案那是不是請民眾黨團有要先進行表示意見"},{"start":10915.797,"end":10940.485,"text":"阿勤阿勤主席喔就針對阿有關我們在第三條之一其實配合修正關鍵的條文是對於網路流量紀錄的定義啦那在網路流量紀錄Never Lock裡面事實上從Cisco1995年以後他其實不斷在演進那個系統"},{"start":10941.485,"end":10960.255,"text":"所謂的Net4Log它裡面所指涉的內容到底是什麼那我第一個因為其實我們在做定義的時候就是我第一個問題是說你們這裡的網路流量紀錄是不是已經包括了"},{"start":10961.815,"end":10985.711,"text":"通訊設備識別資料你們這個通訊設備識別資料指的是是IMDI嗎這個是我的第一個問題是你有包括那個設備的IMDI嗎因為通常我在講網路流量記錄的時候它事實上是在記錄的是那一個data"},{"start":10986.832,"end":11008.641,"text":"他的flow從哪邊出來?從哪邊收?所以你有Source的IP Address你有Destination的IP Address你有在過去的時候封包的數量封包的大小這個是我們在一般看網路流量紀錄的時候我們所做的定義"},{"start":11009.421,"end":11025.275,"text":"那在這邊你們的意思是說你們所所講的網路流量紀錄有包括了那個通訊設備的識別資料也就是可以特定到是哪一個特定的通訊設備嗎這個是我的第一個問題"},{"start":11028.497,"end":11044.923,"text":"如果是的話那這樣子的特定基本上面它的目的是什麼?它的目的是什麼?也就是說你藉由通訊設備的識別你是不是已經可以在這個流量記錄裡面去特定到每一個"},{"start":11045.976,"end":11072.678,"text":"每一個設備就每一個設備他的識別嗎這個是我的第一個問題第二個問題是說我們其實不一樣的地方還有一個那個通訊庫的規定就是他在進行通訊的那個port是不是在你們的定義裡面是不需要收集的data這是我的第二個問題"},{"start":11074.538,"end":11096.573,"text":"第三個事實上就網域名稱的系統你們用網域名稱的系統事實上包含了兩個部分也就是我在上面所寫的查詢跟回應的網域名稱系統然後以及域名解析器域名伺服器他協力查詢的資料"},{"start":11098.814,"end":11123.108,"text":"那基本上就網路流量記錄的這一件事情我們不會堅持要用自己的定義就是你們如果確定你們的定義是符合你們現在實際上面的需要的時候我們會尊重但我想要確定的一件事情是說第一個通訊設備識別資料指的是什麼"},{"start":11124.308,"end":11150.457,"text":"因為我一般在看外國文獻的時候就NetFlow它事實上是不會有這個東西那你們是不是特地把它加進來目的是什麼那第二個部分是通訊付的部分這個Data是不是沒有需要那第三個部分你們針對網頁名稱的系統是不是就是這個概括的詞事實上包含了我剛剛所講的"},{"start":11151.477,"end":11168.17,"text":"那個查詢跟回遇的網域名稱系統跟域名解析器還有域名伺服器的協力查詢資訊。那就這個部分你們希望按照你們這樣子抽象的寫那還是能夠像我們在黨團的版本裡面寫得更具體一點"},{"start":11168.971,"end":11190.744,"text":"因為我們寫的具體的部分是按照目前網際網路位置及頂級網域名稱注冊管理業務監督辦法我們針對於網域名稱系統它所做的定義把它做了一字化把它做了一字化的定義那就這個部分看是不是再請主席請主管機關表示一下他們的看法"},{"start":11191.284,"end":11205.937,"text":"謝謝王委員因為這邊涉及到的是設備端的專業專有名詞是否指涉的是相同的對象或者說目前通用或限定的名詞是哪些來我們審委員先詢問後我們再統一請法務部這邊回答"},{"start":11206.277,"end":11234.929,"text":"好我想說在法務部回答之前我想說就是在確認一件事情跟剛剛那個那個那個黃委員講的一樣就是因為在這邊呢並沒有特別把因為原來的行政院的版本有這一個呃設識別資料所以識別資料這一邊到底指的是什麼還有他會拿到哪些還有device id有imei有imsi到底他拿的是什麼東西因為這個在這個民眾黨的那個版本是沒有的我覺得這是一個巨大的差異我覺得這個一定要先優先說明那後面那個我我倒是沒有什麼意見謝謝"},{"start":11236.149,"end":11264.242,"text":"好,請列席官說明。好,不。跟貴委員報告那關於這一個網路流量的內容在怎麼去定性它事實上我們在討論之前因為我們已經融合了我們兩個建制機關一個是調查局跟刑事警察局它辦案需求上作為一個統合性的把它規範成這個我們縣版這個條文的這個定性的模式那至於剛剛黃委員所提到的就是說有沒有包括"},{"start":11264.922,"end":11285.048,"text":"相關的這一個手機的音密或音息這部分那據我所知我根所知待會我請我們兩個建制機關再補充就是識別資料他是可以知道門號也可以知道序號但是是可以的那另外就是說通訊付的部分我們再請我們建制機關補充"},{"start":11287.409,"end":11312.171,"text":"那網域名稱的部分那他們給我們的資料是說網域的名稱他可以去cover我們民眾黨所所所所包括的這幾個幾項的這個比較更具象的這個名詞啊這當然是一個科技技術上的一個定性名詞那可不可以用網域名稱去cover我待會再請我們建制機關補充請機關代表分別說明來請哪一個哪一位因為我們"},{"start":11314.652,"end":11323.799,"text":"行政警察局好請行政警察局代表那還有一位是調查局代表也請就位請先自我"},{"start":11324.525,"end":11348.141,"text":"介紹單位及職稱是主席各位委員好那我是新市局通訊檢查科科長林偉祥是那有關剛剛委員垂詢的部分那有關這個一米的部分這個通訊設備識別資料的部分那這個部分其實我們會希望是說那"},{"start":11350.411,"end":11378.227,"text":"根據這個法規的保留那我們希望是說使用者所使用的設備那為什麼會需要這個部分因為我們會需要知道說因為只有IP其實我是不知道他是誰在使用那經由IP的查詢他使用哪一種設備我們才有辦法去做後續的偵查那所以這個是我們考量過在犯罪偵查上面所必須的一個"},{"start":11379.367,"end":11400.841,"text":"最少的一個欄位的需求那我們希望說這個欄位希望可以保留我不好意思主席我可以再進一步請教嗎可以好我現在大概比較清楚了齁因為其實你要的不是只有那個flow data其實你已經要特定到在那個IP address的時候他連的東西是什麼嗎設備"},{"start":11402.441,"end":11429.391,"text":"那如果要特定到聯的東西是什麼的話你們在具體上面是你們認為IMEI就夠了不用到IMSI因為他那個equipment的序號那個東西到底是誰買的其實買手機是不需要有跟個人的資訊做強力的連結嘛我今天在地上撿到一支"},{"start":11431.064,"end":11431.464,"text":"二、繼續併案"},{"start":11453.349,"end":11476.454,"text":"這裡不是我的專業領域但是我們那時候在定義的時候我大概把在外國文件上NetFlow他的定義大概全部看完了我在裡面所有定義裡面我真的沒有看到一個是你們要到跟在設備端的device去做連結這樣子的程度當然啦我再強調一次因為我們現在"},{"start":11478.099,"end":11505.651,"text":"採取的是法官保留採取的是法官保留所以我覺得會盡可能滿足你們辦案上面的需求但如果是這個樣子的話我覺得道理更要講清楚要不然的話你們到時候會導致外界很多的疑慮跟批判比如說你如果是MDI的EI你只連接到那個equipment你真的有辦法跟使用者連接在一起嗎"},{"start":11508.966,"end":11524.617,"text":"來請說明再來審委員謝謝委員的這個問題那這個部分其實我們如果做這個資料保留其實我們從IP的部分就可以查到說這個IP是由哪一家業者所配發"},{"start":11526.158,"end":11526.558,"text":"一）行政院函請審"},{"start":11556.398,"end":11583.646,"text":"對你犯罪的偵辦有什麼幫助這是我的問題科長科長我看喔需要科普一下啦是不是那個審委員說明一下我再試著把大家問題釐清瞭解你的需求那個審委員請因為我覺得我覺得還蠻重要的就是就跟國防部要作戰需求一樣你們有辦案需求啦所以到底是需要哪一個哪一個哪一件事情是你們最需要的像剛剛有提到第一個是device本身嘛不是device ID是那個MSI嘛對不對那個MEI然後另外一個是門號"},{"start":11584.766,"end":11613.299,"text":"這個SI那另外一個是那個TMSI就是我我我將傳給中華電視中華電視要回傳給我的那一個這一個其實我覺得搞不好比較不容易其實到時候你問大家都有辦法特定啦但是在最後這個TMSI搞不好是屬於剛剛講的這個flow的一部分其實這個flow我們要怎麼定義我們國家可以自己定義但現在問題就是說哪一個才是最需要的然後我們再來去盤點說因為後續要到底要怎樣的保留嗎就是說到底我們要檢察官保留還是要什麼之類的我們要先把這個定性所以"},{"start":11613.579,"end":11639.629,"text":"是不是可以說明就是說比如說幾個辦案的情境那你們最需要的會是哪一個數據資料科長在你答覆之前因為要幫助大家我試著用一般常識啦我們用戶會有一個手機門號是系統給的那系統會給我們一個SIM卡讓我跟我的手持設備做連結那手持設備可能是蘋果手機它有一個設備手持設備的單機的ID所以有三個東西一般我們只記得撥的號碼"},{"start":11640.93,"end":11641.49,"text":"二、繼續併案審查namon"},{"start":11663.939,"end":11676.231,"text":"大概這個情況所以至少有三個手機門號、SIM卡的ID跟手機設備的ID那剛剛省委員的部分可能已經包含了更多那希望你們說明具體說明你們需要怎麼來辦案"},{"start":11678.834,"end":11695.748,"text":"在這邊補充那其實因為我們在網路流量紀錄的部分其實是沒有內容沒有保存通訊內容那所以我們如果經由這個網路流量紀錄去查詢到相關的犯罪者的時候"},{"start":11696.368,"end":11723.462,"text":"我去追蹤到誰在用這個IP但是他所使用的設備是不是涉及到真正的這些犯罪內容我可能需要知道說他是不是真的用這個設備那我們在以目前來講我後續可以去做相關的手機鑑識的動作去確認相關的這些詐騙行為是不是存在這個雙方的這個設備當中那這個部分就需要"},{"start":11725.488,"end":11737.786,"text":"需要這個參數再去做後續的偵查使用所以剛剛沈委員講的那幾個參數跟黃委員講的那幾個參數他所指稱的名稱是不是你們認為就是以概括的寫在通訊設備識別資料裡面就夠了"},{"start":11740.45,"end":11768.993,"text":"不需要再細的去一一表達還是未來在你們的細則當中在操作的時候你會跟業者因為你們要根據法律的授權是訂定施行細則那這細則是你們跟業者相關溝通的一個依據那業者就根據你們這個依據他提供嘛所以你的細則如果沒有載明業者會說這個是立法通過要給你們要的嗎現在我們擔心的是這個部分嘛你不講清楚你們可以說這個都是我要的啊因為立法院通過法律啦那個設備就包含這些這些這些啊"},{"start":11774.025,"end":11794.108,"text":"那我們預計留存的手機門號序號跟卡號那這個部分就是包含來源手機的跟目的手機的門號然後來源手機跟目的手機的序號還有信卡雙方來源跟目的手機的所使用的信卡的這些資料"},{"start":11804.417,"end":11822.706,"text":"那我有一個建議就是說因為在修法裡有講到像未涉及內容然後民眾黨黨團的是把未涉及內容放在這個本文那我覺得因為如果是這個樣子的話未涉及內容這句話特別重要所以不知道你們的意見是什麼就是未涉及內容這個東西需不需要把它放在法條上"},{"start":11836.837,"end":11857.435,"text":"黃總長我必須要講說為什麼當初在提的時候我特別把沒有涉及通訊的內容放在法律條文當中而不是像你們放在立法理由裡因為這個老實說啦去收集這個data在國外其實不是什麼新鮮事但是在台灣是第一步"},{"start":11858.733,"end":11887.1,"text":"所以我們在走這一步的時候不要去引發一些不必要的臆測跟困擾所以你們是不是看你們要考慮一下是不是像我們這樣的寫法一樣把它寫在法律的條文當中這樣子大家會很清楚的知道跟通訊的contact是沒有關係的那莊委員完然後就要請答覆那你們試著想一下修正動議的內容"},{"start":11889.654,"end":11899.585,"text":"謝謝我還是要來請教啦今天早上這個廳長還有部長的你們的回答讓我全部都聽不懂"},{"start":11901.078,"end":11929.997,"text":"真的聽不懂之所以說聽不懂我還是從那個整個第三條之一啊那個整個第三項裡面啊本法所稱這個網路流量紀錄這個部分我再來讓你們就回憶一下啦早上大家講的我問的是說要不要告知義務那因為涉及到權力救濟我們在刑訴訴訟法第416條裡面我們在2014年修法的時候把通訊監察部分我們就放進去了"},{"start":11931.058,"end":11938.067,"text":"那也就是說你要屬於通訊監察你才有救濟喔才有刑處訴訟法第416條針對這個部分來申請這個這個說出的法案來撤銷跟變更喔那好啦"},{"start":11945.953,"end":11960.245,"text":"早上我不是問嗎說為什麼沒有新增那個網路流量的告知權的一個要求對不對那法務部的講法是說如果是為了要救濟啊是不是要給予通知跟救濟應該由司法來整盤的考量啊你們的考量是什麼顯然你們是沒有答案的喔"},{"start":11962.213,"end":11976.728,"text":"不是嗎?顯然你們是在這個法律你要立法院來給你做出最後的一個決定要通過這個法律以前你們還沒有考慮好喔因為我還真的沒有看到啊這是事實嘛那另外就是說"},{"start":11978.49,"end":12001.699,"text":"那後來部長是講說要用刑處訴訟法416來提供救濟好啦講了一半你就上來了嗎聽到你就上來了嗎對人民的權益只要有侵害應該都給有救濟的一個機會法務部的立場是表明說認同流量紀錄如果是屬於通訊監察所以才會適用整個刑處的一個救濟你都沒通知我被他救濟你這不是矛盾嗎"},{"start":12005.39,"end":12028.266,"text":"所以這個核心的大家先講清楚啦這個三條之一裡面所稱的一個這個流量這個網路流量記錄的部分我的還是認為啦這個是憲法保障的一個資訊的一個自主權啦這個資訊的一個自主權啦那部長早上是講說只要使用基本資料是非常經緯的是要法官保留是經過許可的這個意思是他認為不是喔"},{"start":12032.697,"end":12058.497,"text":"所以才有聽長你上來救援喔他說這個部長講完修正三之一啊這不是通訊的內容只是一個數位的軌跡聽長你早上的講話我就覺得更奇怪了就是說你說按照法部的定義如果不是的話把使用者的資訊通訊的一個記錄做了不同的定義你再跟他說這個我現在整個路上都在想我是說聽長你怎麼這麼有智慧說的我都聽不下去"},{"start":12062.731,"end":12077.761,"text":"所以說那要定義什麼那聽到你說當事人的不符的救濟程序416條準抗告程序擴張解釋是可以處理的我們為什麼要擴張解釋你為什麼不把它定義清楚一定要來擴張解釋416條這個是我的重點因為你們是司法你現在不是跟法務部綁在一塊的喔"},{"start":12085.189,"end":12100.021,"text":"當初為什麼整個通訊監察裡面到最後那個大官會議解釋會把他認為說是違憲的地方就認為說你法院你畢竟是一個比較屬於聽訟比較屬於客觀的一個第三者是這個原因才放到你們那邊去的喔"},{"start":12101.667,"end":12121.681,"text":"所以我的結論就是說這個流量網路流量的一個紀錄這樣的一個告知權部長跟廳長如果法務部如果跟司法院認同是救濟是準用416好那你如果要準用的話那你得有告知因為這個弄下去是神不知鬼不覺喔"},{"start":12122.628,"end":12129.819,"text":"沒有人知道的喔尤其涉及到你用第7條那個霸王帝王條款以後你20沒超過24小時沒連續48小時這個部分是"},{"start":12135.578,"end":12162.118,"text":"沒有任何義務可以,你們那個司法部門有任何義務去告知的喔。這樣你們現在告訴我救濟,所以我不覺得說這個就奇怪了啦。這個到底網路流量記錄到底是不是通訊監察的一部分要定位清楚。如果是,那你要有救濟。那你要救濟的話,你就必須要有告知。那你如果認為不是要用擴張去處理,"},{"start":12165.965,"end":12181.444,"text":"聽證的意思是可以準用416可以準用就等於是你認同法務部又認為不是你們法務部跟司法院就在打架了我覺得我提的是核心問題我只是提醒"},{"start":12182.335,"end":12193.633,"text":"真的 這個還涉及到整個權力救濟的問題啦再想一下 你們可以回答我嗎主席這邊先處理一下會議時間好不好 那個莊委我先處理會議時間"},{"start":12195.942,"end":12201.464,"text":"我們先處理會議時間主席這邊先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項處理完畢為止那我現在先把剛剛討論的部分因為莊委員進來的這個部分跟前面黃總召所提的那剛剛省委員我先做文字上的一個整理"},{"start":12221.05,"end":12237.014,"text":"那麼剛剛省委員的一個看法綜合我們黃總召就是在第三項的最後最後一行服務類型及協定等後面的加入民眾黨團版的那八個字未涉及通訊內容之"},{"start":12240.674,"end":12268.486,"text":"記錄那這樣的話呢這兩個版本如果不討論第三項那些包含的設備項目的名稱紙色如果紙色的內容是一樣只是名稱用法不同那麼或許在行政院版的最後第三項的最後一句話加上民眾黨團版的那八個字就達到剛剛那樣的效果第二就是專委員的問題就是說是不是加了這幾個字未涉及通訊內容的字樣就表達了"},{"start":12269.787,"end":12286.868,"text":"網絡流量紀錄有別於通訊內容的敏感性．他對於個人隱私的影響就不強度不及於需要到更嚴格的保留或者是救濟還是說就算是"},{"start":12287.629,"end":12288.049,"text":"二）行政院函請審"},{"start":12307.49,"end":12326.608,"text":"各位報告那我們在修正第三條之一的網路流量記錄的定義的部分其實我們列舉那六大項就是說在定性上它想當然就沒有涉及到所謂的通訊內容的資料那如果這個立法模式是比照我們第二項"},{"start":12327.188,"end":12351.384,"text":"第二項的通訊記錄那些記錄其實也都沒有涉及內容但是我們原來的條文也沒有把它寫出來說為涉及通訊內容之記錄也沒有把它標示出來所以說在列就想當然他當然沒有涉及到通訊內容但如果說如果說大院覺得就是說加上這個幾個字外界可以適宜的話那我們也尊重大院的決定"},{"start":12354.358,"end":12378.814,"text":"關於那個莊委員的意見提到這個通知跟救濟的問題啦吼那事實上我跟莊委員報告啦吼我們訴訟法上有很多的偵查作為假外很多的偵查作為包括司法警察有很多的偵查作為並不是所有的偵查作為都一定要告知或事後一定有讓他救濟的一個途徑這涉及到一個層級化的保障的問題"},{"start":12379.854,"end":12401.861,"text":"市長我就反對了你那個強制處分你這種通訊監察比一般的強制處分還強大而且都沒有人知道這個影響才可怕對跟委員報告我們這個架構是在原來的通保法的架構底下在進行的原來的通保法裡面就通信記錄的調取這部分本來就沒有"},{"start":12402.421,"end":12403.902,"text":"通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案．則不復議同意書．則不復議"},{"start":12423.019,"end":12448.42,"text":"只是我們這次原來只有通訊紀錄我們現在多了一個叫做網路流量紀錄這個東西我們不去變動原來通訊保障法相關的救濟的機制架構以上補充我提到14條之一來請羅委員然後再來是吳昭偉我真的非常認同剛剛那個專業選委員講的說說認第一個這是新法其實你在試我要講說新規定啦新規定啦"},{"start":12449.221,"end":12476.915,"text":"你今天適用的那個太陽竟然是新的太陽的話那我要講的是你過去你前面要講的所有東西因為要打擊詐騙我也講過你們其實不只是打擊詐騙啦你這個法律的所有適用是包含所有犯罪太陽啦大部分犯罪太陽幾乎看不出寒瓜進去可是事前你今天為了所謂的你的偵辦的一個所謂效率辦案的效率事前部分我保留我沒有表達一個偏向的意見"},{"start":12477.955,"end":12504.822,"text":"但是你連事後你的通知你都不願意做這點其實你已經在侵犯到說基本上我們自己的通訊的通聯的秘密跟網路的所謂的那個秘密這種情況之下你做事後通知那確實會有人力上的增加可是你不要跟我講說人力的增加就作為說今天我可以侵犯人民隱私的一個藉口外面其實民眾對這件事情我認為是很多保留的態度啊"},{"start":12505.442,"end":12529.767,"text":"這是我今天早上質詢的過程當中說今天比方說我們專委員他已經從科技偵察法到現在都講一個重點今天因為沒有這些事後的一些機制存在他變成一個情況就是說事實上我今天不管是用GPS定位不管是調你的通聯不管是調你的所謂的網路的那個流量記錄我調完之後神不知鬼不覺你只有你們執法單位知道"},{"start":12530.731,"end":12547.406,"text":"然後呢換言之到最後這些資料會到哪裡去也只有你們自己執法單位自己做內控去管制可是今天我們是當時我被柯真了我被這個所謂的那個通訊通聯的那個調查了解了我被今天你的網路去查我的網路的那個那個記錄了"},{"start":12548.88,"end":12576.256,"text":"這種情況之下我當然當事人我覺得事前你可以為了犯罪征訪你沒有辦法告訴我這我覺得可以接受但事後你今天跟我講你不需要通知抱歉我覺得我是覺得是連這一點我覺得執法單位都要拿這個當作所謂的他一直說這個影響範圍很輕範圍輕重我覺得也不是執法單位一句話說的也不是法務部一句話說的你去問民眾到底他覺得重不重他覺得侵犯重不重"},{"start":12577.196,"end":12599.553,"text":"我們會擔心說今天這些資料你們拿去用了以後我早上質詢也講啊雖然你們一直講說你們偵查不公開做得很好啊可是實際上現在所有的社會大眾觀感是什麼今天我去作證的時候我就發現馬上隔天報紙都出來了原因是什麼原因是你們內控機制到現在為止我沒有看到內控機制的績效嘛"},{"start":12600.475,"end":12619.726,"text":"那你今天叫我空白授權給你然後說連通知都不要我抱歉我覺得真的是這一部分我覺得我個人是有很大的保留啦以上謝謝那個在吳釗偉講之前剛剛其實次長你有提到通訊保障本身有依照它對象內容的強度做層次化不同的一個保障啦"},{"start":12620.086,"end":12620.946,"text":"一、繼續併案《通訊保障及監察法部分條文》案。"},{"start":12640.571,"end":12653.739,"text":"我這邊有兩個文字可以給大家參考我待會請會務人員印給大家試著把剛剛大家討論的內容根據剛剛法務部的回應我把它試著文字化那接下來請吳昭偉有關這個部分我是滿認同莊瑞雄委員的想法"},{"start":12661.687,"end":12690.336,"text":"因為其實從最近這幾個法的修正上面其實我是非常站在檢警的立場去思考每一個條文尤其是在偵查期間昨天我也有提到因為偵查是非常浮動的所以我希望在偵查的階段不要給太多的限制包括不需要每一個東西都要法官保留我希望說是一個讓他能夠充分的去行使他的偵查"},{"start":12690.936,"end":12716.931,"text":"但是在結束之後我們是不是要做事後的通知我認為這一塊可能還是有它的必要性雖然目前對於那個調閱通聯我們是不需要做事後的通知但是其實我們可以回過頭去思考說這個東西是不是我們在調閱這些數位資料的話像從你這個相關的資料裡面你可以知道我有很多個人的習慣"},{"start":12719.213,"end":12735.872,"text":"這跟打電話的那個通聯記錄不太一樣通聯記錄那個電話號碼你可能還要再去分析分析那個對象是誰嘛像以前我們都會從通聯去分析說如果說這個通聯如果只有15秒左右那應該都是買毒品用的啦"},{"start":12736.232,"end":12737.852,"text":"一、繼續併案《通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案》案"},{"start":12760.12,"end":12787.491,"text":"我個人認為說在偵查階段偵查的前階段你不通知不讓他知道這個是有偵查的必要性但是如果在案子結束之後是不是還是不要通知我覺得這個大家要思考一下當然啦案子在懲辦一定有它的例外嘛比如說我A案結束之後其實我引起另外一個B案要繼續辦那這個東西就暫時不通知我們可以用內控的方式去解決嘛"},{"start":12788.831,"end":12790.352,"text":"二、繼續併案審查二）行政院函請審查二）行政院函"},{"start":12811.258,"end":12832.817,"text":"這個可能要再去思考對不對而且我們是如果我們是把它設計在結案之後比如說你檢方已經起訴之後然後再定一個比如說起訴後兩個月內要通知給他們一個彈性但是我們做事後的告知民眾我不認為說這個會影響第一個我不認為這會影響到偵查第二個在人力上面我認為是"},{"start":12834.598,"end":12851.906,"text":"這個負荷是還好欸因為像最早期我想說在座比較資深的警察官應該知道早期的通訊監察結束之後的通知其實規範的非常的簡略所以當時有很多警察怎麼通知我在這邊跟大家報告實務上面有很多警察會故意遞資寫錯"},{"start":12853.527,"end":12867.583,"text":"然後就寄到別人家去別人也不知道這個人是誰但是在卷裡面看起來他已經通知了他已經完整他的程序了可是他實際上根本沒有通知到受監察人早期是這樣玩後來程序在慢慢補充到現在不會有這個狀況發生所以"},{"start":12870.387,"end":12883.041,"text":"有時候這樣啦就是我不能夠說就是一廂情願的認為說這個這個根本就不需要通知我覺得不是更何況說這些數位的資料就像我剛說的他可以分析出你的生活習慣"},{"start":12884.719,"end":12913.178,"text":"就像我們以前在查一些案子的時候我們會從他的很多資料他上哪一些網站我就知道他喜歡什麼所以這個東西我個人認為說可能事後通知還是有他的必要性給大家參考謝謝吳昭偉待會我們請沈委員再來莊委員在他們兩位發言之前因為我們本條三條之一是在討論設備的名稱但是委員們關切的已經在本法的第15條關於結束後的一個告知但是因為15條在本制修法並沒有修所以我們無法對15條進行修正"},{"start":12915.08,"end":12933.6,"text":"道士十四條之一有寫到網路流量記錄的相關文字若委員們有關注的話可以到十四條之一在二十六月的部分去參考一下有沒有可能在那裡面把大家的意識放進去我現在已經有兩個附帶決議的文字供大家參考接下來我們請省委員再來莊委員"},{"start":12935.117,"end":12948.373,"text":"好我很快我剛剛要講一樣的事情就是說我們先把第三條之一搞定喔對因為通知在後面但的確因為這個15條這是沒有在裡面嘛齁那但是我的意思就是說第一個就是剛剛講的那個未涉及內容要不要放進去齁這是剛剛討論的那往剛剛聽起來"},{"start":12951.096,"end":12974.384,"text":"對於這個通訊設備識別資料看起來好像大家並沒有這個意見所以他應該會留著所以我是要確認這件事情那最後就是使用者資料、通聯紀錄、網路、流量、通訊內容這四個是不同層次啦那網路流量資料因為畢竟在這一次的11條質疑是把它放在法官保留所以我也是蠻贊成說可能要有一些告知義務啦因為畢竟他就是把隱私拉到那麼高拉到法官保留"},{"start":12976.246,"end":12991.871,"text":"來請莊委員謝謝其實在我我剛這樣提是希望說司法院跟法務部這邊我是做出一個提醒啦因為這個涉及到你像比如說我們三之一我當然知道在討論第三條之一"},{"start":12993.691,"end":13010.99,"text":"還是要定性的問題的如果你認為這個整個網路的一個流量的一個記錄不屬於通訊監察你當然就不會跑到15條嘛剛吳宗憲委員他也有口誤的地方啦通訊監察當然那個是在所謂的第五條的部分那我會提到第七條八項條款第五項條款"},{"start":13012.512,"end":13016.936,"text":"其實我當然也知道那個分內容不同但是我是在講說整部法已經那麼強大了那你既然整個網路的流量這個部分你第15條你沒有修嘛你沒有修嘛那剛剛黃處長的講法是說我們在整個強制處分裡面有很多太陽啊確實啊沒有每一樣都受到告知啊可是我問你就是說"},{"start":13035.812,"end":13059.437,"text":"這一種涉及到整個資訊的一個自主喔這個是很強大的啦跟一般的強制處分不一樣啦因為強制處分你說你去搜索啦扣押的還有到現場去啊當事人我還可以說我可以請一個律師的你這都沒有啦你這件事都沒有沒有人知道啦我講一個最難聽的啦政黨最害怕的就是這種事啊每一個人當立法院可以當多久"},{"start":13060.578,"end":13065.122,"text":"可是問題是說你這個搞到最後這個你這個這一步法下去以後我擔心啊"},{"start":13067.679,"end":13092.134,"text":"你們的立法的出發點當然是要打擊犯罪這對嘛但問題是說你這個對於整個憲法保障的權利做侵害的時候你說都沒有救濟手段沒有這樣的一個設計也很奇怪啦你認同它是一個權利啦我看廳長你也認為是一個權利啦有權利真的要有救濟啊那你有救濟你沒有告知這個你怎麼去救濟呢除非你告訴我這是很輕微的這哪算輕微"},{"start":13095.302,"end":13116.032,"text":"我這個先大家先講清楚我做這樣的一個提醒好不好好那來那個省委員省發會委員好這個我想我回到這個第三條之一這個部分剛才在前面有很多專業性的討論那這個這個大致上就是說"},{"start":13117.861,"end":13141.602,"text":"我們這發言的委員就是擔心說我們在目前我們院盤的這些規定裡面有一些我們可能在偵查過程中應該其實應該取得的東西但是你們現在所列的這些要件並不包含這些但是這個我們法務部的說明就是說不已經包含了這個概念大概就是說你們覺得說我已經我需要我已經把寫出來"},{"start":13143.484,"end":13162.712,"text":"但你覺得他們有提的這些就是蚵仔、青菜、雞蛋你說我這個都就是已經蚵仔煎就已經有這些就已經爆發這些了但是有委員會說我這個不是不是不是青菜不是蚵仔我這個是牛肉啊我這是鮑魚啊你蚵仔煎沒有爆發我這個鮑魚在裡面啊那這個東西其實"},{"start":13164.929,"end":13180.161,"text":"因為這個偵查者是你們所以你們偵查的需求偵查單位的需求列出這樣子那我們對我們立法委員來講我們在立法過程中我們是善意提醒你們因為這會未來會牽涉到包括你們對於這些相關的這些這些這些"},{"start":13181.861,"end":13203.303,"text":"一．民間公司我們要求他們的這一些相關資料的法律依據那他也會牽涉到未來在相關案件在這個司法審判裡面這個法官的認知他是不是包含在你們所列的這些專業項目裡面那我個人是比較建議說我們是不是就是說"},{"start":13204.904,"end":13217.564,"text":"如果我們現在偵查單位認為說這個部分他們需求的東西就是這些那我們就尊重願版的所列出來這些要件那其他所增列的這些東西這個未來如果你們真的認為"},{"start":13219.225,"end":13241.452,"text":"因為這個確實有一些在解釋上面的問題就光對那個Netflog的內容到底包括什麼東西剛才在這邊就已經在爭執他定義上就有爭執了所以這部分是不是未來齁你們再例如制定施行細則或者是以其他的方式我們再要必須要再讓他定義更明確化一點"},{"start":13242.199,"end":13246.473,"text":"好謝謝沈委員齁這個時段你講到額阿珍齁會有大家立刻其他聯想齁來那個請我們呃吳思揚"},{"start":13250.112,"end":13262.359,"text":"我想很多討論我看到有兩個附帶決議還有等一下再看15條之後要不要再補充處理所以回到條文我覺得要考慮的就兩點剛剛民眾黨黨團裡面寫的比較細的這個起氣時間通訊鋪然後協定封包大小數量等等這些他們明列出來的如果已經含括在我們院版現在裡面寫的那個大主題裡面那個所謂的"},{"start":13277.4,"end":13300.407,"text":"通訊設備識別資料裡面的話如果都include那就不用放我同意第二個最後一句話如果剛剛次長也講如果是為了讓閱讀者或是一般大家覺得比較有安心而且覺得可以接受的話放入這個未涉及通訊內容之記錄我個人是可以支持我覺得就直接處理條文好嗎"},{"start":13301.971,"end":13318.558,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13319.114,"end":13344.242,"text":"如果我們說不含動物性其他動物性蛋白質你要加進去讓人安心說不會吃到其他的牛肉啊豬肉的話是不是我們這一條我先待會因為要用正式的修正動議啦那是不是剛剛主席有做一個宣讀就是在行政院版的最後一行第三項最後一行服務類型及協定等加八個字未涉及通訊內容之那就接著記錄這樣"},{"start":13345.362,"end":13368.791,"text":"那雖然剛剛次長說沒有錯第一項第二項也是望聞生意又知道不含這個但是第三項呢大家可能擔心你額要在裡面參加火腿所以就乾脆想未含其他動物性蛋白就把它寫上去這樣比較安心那這個修正動議我們先討論到這先暫時結論原狀是照行政院版的文字後修正通過但是修正動議我再補請大家簽一下大家是否同意這樣"},{"start":13369.491,"end":13397.617,"text":"那最後我們再做個確認好不好可以喔那我們第三條之一我先暫時宣告案行政院版的文字修正後通過但是文字修正內容我們待會再請三黨團看過一遍再以正式修正同意方式給他確認接下來看第五條第五條有行政院版跟民眾黨團版的部分請問在場委員有沒有來詢問因為它是罪名的甄列"},{"start":13403.869,"end":13427.927,"text":"前財黨委員有沒有要進一步詢問的我可以問一下來請吳委員因為早上在質詢的時候我特別關心那個兒少性剝削的那個性私密影像的部分那個相關要查辦的部分所以我們有在這個第12款裡頭有處理但是我早上也有問到那對於成人的部分"},{"start":13428.988,"end":13457.022,"text":"好,那早上那個部長告訴我說也有在裡面,它是放在哪裡?因為12款是主...是在二上席博爵,刑法的嗎?第二款的部分的319之一底下那個來吧,標籤牌319,319第二款下面的319條之一第二項,第三項319之一它就是去年過的姓氏名影像的相關的條文就只有這一款沒有漏掉沒有,它都是全部"},{"start":13457.806,"end":13484.078,"text":"整張的最多都包括進來了好在第七頁的部分第七頁下半段三百第三百十九條之一第二項第三項及該二項之未遂犯這一項對好OK好那如果委員同意那是不是我們第五條條文案行政院提案通過好通過那我們接下來看"},{"start":13487.783,"end":13510.434,"text":"第6條在這第6條部分有行政院提案跟民眾黨團版提案第6條是關於罪名修正的罪名跟程序"},{"start":13515.141,"end":13523.07,"text":"請問委員會對於第6條內容文字上他就是把罪名增列啦就增加一些增辦的項目那沒有問題的話來請那個黃總召"},{"start":13535.726,"end":13559.778,"text":"那個針對第6條的部分基本上他只是就適用的罪名上面就主管機關法務部他們認為應該適用的罪名來予以針對這部分我竟表同意沒有問題不好意思因為剛其實第5條有相同的問題可是我要剛跑去交通委員會諮詢所以跳過去所以等一下問的內容如果剛第5條有討論過的話請見諒就是說"},{"start":13562.859,"end":13578.847,"text":"我們現在打詐專法裡面第43條跟44條你們所設定的法則的加重你們在定性上那個是形種性質的加重還是形分性質的加重"},{"start":13580.067,"end":13603.341,"text":"為什麼問這個問題因為我看起來像是刑分性質的加重那如果是刑分性質的加重的話他就是一個獨立的新的罪名那如果是獨立的新的罪名的話那我們這一次在配合整個修正你們現在裡面不管是第五條或者是第六條其實都沒有把現在正在併案審查的打詐專法"},{"start":13604.582,"end":13626.482,"text":"把他放到涵蓋的範圍當中我先以第五條來講第五條你因為第一款有最新本型三年以上有期徒刑所以你可以cover到打詐專法的43條這沒問題但是你cover不到44條那你如果到第六條的部分的時候到第六條的部分是"},{"start":13627.998,"end":13645.333,"text":"因為你更是用列舉的方式連最新本刑三年以上都沒有嘛所以你在這裡面所條文的列的當中你當然有講說什麼你當然有講說啊刑法第三百三十九條三百三十九條之三三百三十九條之四嘛"},{"start":13646.297,"end":13664.821,"text":"那你說你如果連339的普通詐欺這都有了那334的加重詐欺當然要有嘛但你這次打詐專法的43條跟44條沒有必要放進去嗎那當然你們會說可能會說啦這個是未來的法律條文會不會通過我們還不確定嘛"},{"start":13667.222,"end":13691.68,"text":"但問題是你們在這一次修正的裡面條次上面的處理我已經看到你們把洗錢防治法第6條已經調到第19條了現在不是在19條了這個19條是未來的條次我的理解應該沒有錯啦所以你們在炒你這個草案的時候是說啊我們在整個立法上面把它看成是一個bundle"},{"start":13692.701,"end":13717.763,"text":"也就是說這一次通訊保障的修正跟洗房法的修正我們是把它掛在一起的我們到時候到院會的時候希望兩部法律都順利三讀通過那這樣子你這一次通訊保障的規定跟洗房法的規定條次才可以對在一起嘛你們在立法理由上是這樣寫好那既然你們已經考慮到了未來未來條次"},{"start":13719.008,"end":13746.123,"text":"更正也就是相關的法律修正以後的配套已經反映在你們這支行政院院盤那我的問題就來了除非你把打詐專法43條、44條你把它認為是總則的加重那如果是分則的加重的話你們認為需不需要在上面把它明定出來讓它是很清楚的在第五條跟第六條的設成範圍之內這個是我的問題"},{"start":13749.295,"end":13761.362,"text":"好謝謝那麼是不是法務部這邊真的有人的要同意的答覆那剛剛的第三條的文字的修正已經是你好了待會發下去請各位參考好請次長呃"},{"start":13766.127,"end":13791.237,"text":"謝謝黃委員的提醒的確有黃委員提的那個法律上的一個問題我們打造專法我們在修的時候打造專法因為在同步在修所以我們原來草擬的時候打造專法那時候搞不好還沒有存在所以在條文的時候未來在試用上的確會有委員所提的那問題在43條的部分在監聽部分因為43條本身他是最終3年以上10年以下的罪所以他可以被這個第5條Cover第一項Cover第一款Cover沒有問題"},{"start":13792.437,"end":13818.873,"text":"那44條的部分呢那跟我們緊急的部分我們第6條的部分可能就因為我們認為它是刑分的加重不是一個刑總的加重它是一個獨立的犯罪類型並不是刑總加重所以呢它的確會有這個聯動修法的問題所以是不是就是說如果各大院支持的話我們負責修正把條文加進來"},{"start":13820.434,"end":13832.95,"text":"那這樣好不好那個那個黃總長因為齁那個第五條剛剛雖然是已經討論通過第六條大家要討論其實啊我跟大家報告一下齁那麼這一次三法的"},{"start":13834.774,"end":13848.846,"text":"審查我們最後呢預告可能都以全案保留方式送交委員會出委員之前有一個黨團協商啊那個時候如果有些呃比較需要更深入的地方那個時候也可以再來做跨條次的處理好那請黃總長"},{"start":13852,"end":13876.66,"text":"謝謝因為這個問題釐清了以後我相信以後我們在打擊相關詐欺犯罪的時候就不會掛翼漏腕了好不容易搞了一個打詐專法好不容易有四三四四可以加重刑罰結果竟然沒有配套在通保法裡面這個真的是不好所以也感謝次長剛剛的說明釐清了講得很清楚"},{"start":13877.481,"end":13896.712,"text":"打詐專法4344是刑法分責性質的加重已經構成了一個獨立的犯罪類型了嘛所以我們的修正動議其實剛剛也早就準備好了針對第五條跟第六條的修正動議第五條的部分因為有最新三年以上本期圖形可以cover43條嘛"},{"start":13897.432,"end":13919.417,"text":"所以第五條的部分我們增略了打詐專法的44條第六條的部分因為沒有那個cover的條文所以43、44條兩個條文都必須要含掛在裡面那剛剛那個修正動議已經送出去了那我也尊重尊重沒有那個招委等一下可以發給大家啦因為我也沒有說今天一定說啊今天就按照我們的修正動議通過"},{"start":13921.055,"end":13936.025,"text":"稍為願意多保留一點時間給法務部看一下我們的修正動議看一看想一想覺得有道理把它納進去我們也沒有說今天一定說啊這個條文就按照我們修正動議送出去要保留也可以OK"},{"start":13936.925,"end":13948.228,"text":"主席在這邊口誤做一個更正我們還是希望全案審查完畢後保留送協商不是全案保留全案保留是沒有討論到一個共識今天我們希望審查完畢後全案送黨團協商現在有修正動議在場"},{"start":13953.47,"end":13978.687,"text":"那麼剛剛的第三條之一那請大家看一下文字的部分已經把剛剛民眾黨團的提案內容的部分文字融入那至於說剛剛雖然已經有審查通過說第五條但是呢如果大家願意我們第五條、第六條修正後請大家一併參考那我先做這個程序上的處理那請問第三條之一若以目前這樣修正後的文字加八個字那大家覺得是否同意"},{"start":13980.809,"end":13993.635,"text":"對,對,同意啦齁?同意好,那麼我們第三條之一按行政院提案文字修正後通過好,那剛剛第五條那第六條現在那個其他的修正動議是不是各位已經拿到手了?第五條第六條的修正動議"},{"start":13996.287,"end":14009.999,"text":"還在硬喔那這樣好不好黃總召我們先往下推進可以回過頭來再來看齁那我們第6條先暫保留齁第11條之一有行政院提案跟民眾黨團提案是不是有要做補充來請黃總召"},{"start":14014.417,"end":14029.791,"text":"第11條之一其實是大家比較關注的條文我相信法務部也知道第一個我們先確認網路流量紀錄的部分我們還是採取法官保留要向法院申請調取票"},{"start":14030.812,"end":14056.564,"text":"跟我們在監聽的時候的那個監聽票採取相同高密度的法官保留這個我覺得在邁出第一步的時候雖然老實講網路流量記錄給你的資訊跟我們在打電話的時候聽的內容對隱私權保護侵害的程度其實也沒那麼嚴重但我還是贊成用法官保留但我今天在跟那個"},{"start":14060.126,"end":14082.508,"text":"部長交換意見的一件事情就是說那針對有關於使用者使用者的資訊比如說這個電話是誰的他住哪裡把他特定到人的那個使用者的資訊這一件事情你們有一定堅持說要一口氣就放給警察嗎"},{"start":14084.148,"end":14098.737,"text":"因為當然這個是就是大家很注意很在意的事實你們是不是要考慮一下說在第一步第一個階段的時候因為我們使用者的資訊在過去的通保法"},{"start":14099.755,"end":14100.195,"text":"我同意。但"},{"start":14123.567,"end":14150.432,"text":"我們為了配合你們辦案的需要現在我們要把那個管制稍微放鬆放鬆是不是有必要一下子就鬆到直接警察就可以了是不是還是讓檢察官稍微控制一下那你說警察有緊急必要怎麼辦我們黨團條文上面也設計你有緊急必要你還是做嘛但是你事後你還是要報檢察官的許可"},{"start":14151.252,"end":14180.564,"text":"那是不是在現在這個修正的第一步的時候我們原則上還是事先得到檢察官的許可那如果有緊急狀況那你們事後可以補跟檢察官申請許可我是建議啦這樣子的一個比較比較穩健的修法的態度能夠提供給主管機關審慎的考慮好那麼有沒有其他委員要做詢問那是不是請法務部來請陳柏洋委員"},{"start":14182.421,"end":14203.182,"text":"在這邊我覺得至少檢察官保留應該還是比較合適的一個做法這邊我有一個小問題就是說因為在這一個民眾黨黨團的這一個檢察官保留之後後面有一個如刃擊破情形然後呢之後可以再報情那我不知道現行的實務上就是說因為我之前是看數據其實檢察官許可的這個機率是算高啦"},{"start":14203.522,"end":14217.558,"text":"那是不是要不要後面這一款因為對我來講有時候就是他可能要了之後結果當然後面就說不行但他也已經拿到了這個部分呢是不是也可以順便說明一下好請法務部市長"},{"start":14219.157,"end":14243.48,"text":"跟各位委員報告啦那謝謝各位委員的關心那就法務部的立場那行政院版的條文他當然這部分我們認為是讓司法警察大家可以職權來調取啦那最主要理由當然他就是我們說了很多次他只是一個開戶的一個資料包括地址身份證個人的這個地址是非常單純的個人資料沒有其他的任何內容甚至也沒有軌跡"},{"start":14244.961,"end":14260.553,"text":"所以這一部分我們事實上辦案有很多的個人開戶資料我們銀行也有開戶資料我們很多的東西升登都有開戶資料這種東西在辦案實務上並沒有要求一定要甲官保留或法官保留"},{"start":14262.628,"end":14291.594,"text":"就是因為通訊保障就是這邊做的非常嚴格的規定所以這部分如果要採取以前的法方法當然不可採那採檢察官保障我們認為是說沒有必要他相對其他的開戶的資料其實都是辦案上的一個需求因為他事實上他的資訊量實在太低了實在太低而且是個人直接填載的資料所以這部分是不是請大院支持就是說院版的條文這部分讓司法警察他可以直接來調取"},{"start":14294.261,"end":14297.336,"text":"好那在這裡來那個專委員好那我再做整理"},{"start":14298.669,"end":14326.818,"text":"我再來提個提醒我來請教司法院因為黃次長的意見表達得很清楚打擊犯罪的立場那我來請教司法院就是說11條之一你檢察官或者司法警察官你在偵查這個犯罪收集證據的時候你說認為有使用通訊使用的資本資料就當然要去打擊犯罪你當然會認為有嘛"},{"start":14328.799,"end":14342.946,"text":"那我來請教德國的立法律是怎麼樣?德國的立法律法官保留對不對?聽到沒錯嗎?民眾黨現在認為是檢察官保留我現在請廳長回"},{"start":14354.05,"end":14355.973,"text":"民眾黨認為是檢察官保障我要來聽聽司法院的意見你們認為怎麼樣會比較符合"},{"start":14367.423,"end":14391.961,"text":"我剛剛看了一下在德國的《刑事訴訟法》一百條G這個部分他講的是通訊記錄啦那應該不是使用者的資料那大概是有點差距啦那根據剛剛三之一那部分他把通訊記錄使用者資料這部分是有點區別的通訊記錄德國立法律是法官保留啊對對對通訊記錄是法官保留是啊"},{"start":14392.741,"end":14401.088,"text":"瓜瓜說他由國家調取的紀錄已經存在的通聯紀錄也是相關法官保留的部分剛剛也趁這個機會回應剛剛莊委員的提醒關於救濟的部分"},{"start":14408.194,"end":14430.651,"text":"剛剛也許我回答得比較快因為我剛才在思考說沒關係 我是跟你們提醒而已你們做出一個可以跟社會對話的我可以接受你說法務部的立場我也知道他們的立場嘛問題就是說你們比較屬於一般討論整個條文討論到最後為什麼大家會認為說是不是到最後應該保留給法院他認為你們比較有一個第三者比較公正的一個立場"},{"start":14431.699,"end":14448.381,"text":"如果以我司法院立場是現在目前在偵辦中的案件包括所謂的開戶資料金融開戶資料的調取護證資料的調取這個都警察機關都直接就去做調取的動作包括前科資料也是"},{"start":14449.181,"end":14468.765,"text":"那也就是說這個是行之有年他對於各自的保護的部分包括的措施稍微比較低說實在的目前的狀況之下在警察機關在做初步偵查的時候就會調取相關的病歷資料包括他的金融金融的開戶資料都會直接去做調取那相關機構也會多配合"},{"start":14469.225,"end":14469.825,"text":"．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":14498.556,"end":14524.77,"text":"你可以去做理解的。好,總統委員,那麼是不是我這邊容我整理一下。那麼關於目前在討論的第11條之一有行政院提案、民眾黨團提案以及我們看原條文。那原條文的第一項包含四個部分。它的差異在於說第一個原條文是由檢察官發動。那行政院版跟民眾黨團的提案都是包含司法檢察官。"},{"start":14525.84,"end":14553.683,"text":"二、原條文當中是限定於追蹤本行三年以上在行政院跟民眾黨的提案當中就把這個拿掉了第三個原條文是將通訊記錄跟通訊使用者資料把它並列那麼在行政院版跟民眾黨團的提案當中他就有做一個區隔行政院版是說限定是指使用者資料使用者資料那麼"},{"start":14554.827,"end":14582.596,"text":"民眾黨黨團提案也是以使用者資料為限那最後呢原條文是通訊記錄及通訊使用者資料都需要由法官保留要法院核發那到了行政院版的部分就不需要那民眾黨團版是認為是要有檢察官保留大概這幾個差異啦那剛剛的爭點主要是在於說援引德國的法律認為使用者資料"},{"start":14583.756,"end":14610.646,"text":"不在他們原來的法官保留範圍內所以行政院提案就比照將使用者資料呢排除在法官保留那至於是不是要加上檢察官保留的部分這個委員們有些不同的看法大概做這個整理是這一條大家覺得先保留沒有因為其實我覺得剛發言完一輪以後啦多數委員的意見"},{"start":14612.003,"end":14635.253,"text":"其實聽得出來聽得出來那只不過說法務部這邊還是似乎說希望就直接放給警察那因為這個是一個蠻重大的政策決定我覺得是不是先沉澱一下先沉澱一下然後讓法務部也回去跟我們刑事警察局的同仁跟調查局的同仁"},{"start":14636.013,"end":14648.916,"text":"稍為再協調一下是不是真的要那樣子一下就直接放給司法警察官所以我建議這條是不是就先留著讓法務部有一些時間跟空間再沉澱一下"},{"start":14650.902,"end":14654.485,"text":"那麼因為這涉及到齁,欸來那個審柏洋委員再來審判會員好審判會員"},{"start":14675.288,"end":14693.604,"text":"我只是要表達說我也贊成保留好OK這裡的保留是指條文保留所以我們第11條之一就保留接下來我們進行第14條有行政院提案和民眾黨團提案請問在場委員對於14條的部分是不是有一些意見"},{"start":14696.591,"end":14717.061,"text":"我想問一下那個十一條之一剛剛都是討論那個使用者資料但是後面的都沒有處理對都一樣我們只是針對第一項的規範到底使用的資料要不要有檢察官或者是就不用檢察官保留大概是這樣好那麼第四條的部分請委員表示意見各版本都一樣"},{"start":14721.163,"end":14740.917,"text":"那如果沒有意見的話我們14條就按...欸是...黃總在有意見因為14條跟14條之一基本上就是一方面這次有網路流量紀錄另外一方面是配合電信管理法的規定"},{"start":14744.932,"end":14764.694,"text":"在條文14條上面的規範因為都是配合電信管理法的規範所以實際上面的內容沒有什麼不同但我只有一個問題是因為我們當初其實我們在送修法的時候台灣民眾黨黨團我們除了通保法以外其實我們有送電信管理法"},{"start":14765.819,"end":14793.454,"text":"我們為什麼同時送電信管理法因為你要藉由科語這些電信業者你要求他那個NetFlow Log的紀錄你要給我留下來那等於是說你必須要透過國家的法律在科語那個業者義務在規範的體力上面因為現在的電信管理法裡面他保存義務的其實沒有什麼其實沒有網路流入量紀錄"},{"start":14795.197,"end":14810.563,"text":"所以我們那個時候在修法的時候是配套的通保法也修電信管理法也修啊你們這一次齁這樣子修你們只修通保法啊我知道啦你們把你們想要的東西啊全部塞在通保法裡"},{"start":14811.67,"end":14829.465,"text":"全部塞在通保法裡那電信管理法裡面有隨之配合修那以後這樣看起來就會很怪喔就是你在電信管理法裡面那個電信業者他要留存東西的義務啊跟在通保法裡面他要留存東西的義務啊那個範圍"},{"start":14831.272,"end":14831.292,"text":"好來請"},{"start":14858.991,"end":14878.954,"text":"先自我介紹一下我NCC法律事務處處長我這邊簡單報告一下就是說在現行的定性管理法第9條那已經針對就是通訊者使用資料以及通訊記錄這部分的一個資料的一個留存"},{"start":14879.875,"end":14908.284,"text":"那至於說網路流量記錄這一次在通訊法這邊特別法來做這個相關規定的一個新增那當然就是說這相關的資料的一個留存那在特別法這邊裡面去做增訂那這個是法律所賦予的義務那當然電信業者他必須有這樣子一個配合"},{"start":14909.104,"end":14936.442,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":14936.682,"end":14964.65,"text":"訂管法的部分因為那一部分是業者他本身自行建置留存那供這一個使用的用戶他來調取他只是作為贓物記錄的一個使用調取所以那一部分的這個經費他們必須要自行來做處理那這一部分特別法還有另外的建置費用所以這兩部分是把它區隔開來"},{"start":14967.753,"end":14992.321,"text":"請黃總召我跟ACC的官員交換一下意見科與業者這個義務然後國家在金錢上面要不要予以補償這是一回事你有的是他無償我就要你做第二個你做了國家因為施加你這些義務給你補償"},{"start":14995.034,"end":15000.868,"text":"這個跟在電信管理法裡面要不要同步修我的看法是兩回事"},{"start":15001.949,"end":15026.898,"text":"要不然以後你法律適用法上會變成怎麼樣我唸給我唸給NCC的司長聽目前電信管理法第九條的規定第四項說電信事業及設置公共電信網路業者有依通訊保障及監察法協助執行通訊監察調取通訊記錄及通訊使用者資料之一物"},{"start":15028.493,"end":15058.007,"text":"一般正常的人看到電信管理法第九條你問說電信業者有什麼義務他有保存通訊記錄及通訊使用者資料的義務那你說啊不對你法律念得不夠通透你怎麼會只看電信法第九條呢你要回去看通保法那邊還有別的規定你等於是讓我們的法律體系很破碎啊你自己要把它拼湊在一起啊"},{"start":15059.229,"end":15070.706,"text":"您懂我的意思嗎?我如果要想要知道電信業者有什麼意義我當然是看電信管理法嘛我看電信管理法以後看到第9條然後我再看第40條40條的第7款寫什麼?"},{"start":15074.531,"end":15099.973,"text":"第七款現行法是依通訊保障及監察法規定具有提供通信記錄等資料之功能但那個通信記錄你在設成範圍上面沒有辦法涵蓋網路流量記錄啊所以你們其實之前我不需要老實講你們也知道啦電信管理法第九條跟四十條"},{"start":15101.658,"end":15129.706,"text":"是在這一次配套修法的時候跟通保法要一起修的我只是沒有辦法理解說你們這次行政院提出來的時候為什麼把電信管理法給浪槓掉那當然你可以說啦反正我就放在通保法啦電信管理法法條文字不一樣的部分我們依照後法優先於新法的原則那我們自己要可以知道要把通保法的規定跟電信管理法的規定把它拼在一起"},{"start":15130.99,"end":15133.331,"text":"二、繼續併案《通訊保障及監察法部分條文》案。"},{"start":15149.783,"end":15171.622,"text":"這個網路流量記錄的一個建制因為它大概不是一個補償的概念那個因為是政府要去進行的一個這個這個事務所以在這個通訊保障裡面就規定說這一部分是由機關來提出這個建制的費用"},{"start":15172.482,"end":15199.072,"text":"當然相關法律委員所提到的確實有這樣子一個比較破碎或應該比較完整來做規範的一個問題因為我們電管法其實它在當時這個制定的時候從電信碼到電管法一個轉軌一個新法一個成立因為通保法它已經就存在了"},{"start":15199.952,"end":15225.043,"text":"所以委員所提示我們將來在電信管理法如果修正的時候那我們也願意把這個相關的一些把它也做了一些銜接過來好這樣子那個我先做個整理目前的增點是這樣子因為電信管理法第9條或第40條誠如黃昭偉所說它裡面只有寫通信記錄或者是"},{"start":15227.989,"end":15250.808,"text":"實用者資料他有保存的義務但是我們現在在通訊裡面創設了一個流量記錄那流量記錄在通訊裡面有定義但是呢在電信管理法當中並沒有規定所以這個就產生一個兩個法之間對於新增事務的定義跟管理的問題好那這個部分是不是沈發慧委員要表示意見剛剛你不是有舉手沒有我看錯了好來來從黃總召"},{"start":15255.263,"end":15274.24,"text":"我再強調一次這一部相關的法律基層的警察跟調查員還有檢察官已經等太久了真的等太久所以我不會因為這一次電信管理法你們沒有併案審查就去阻攔這部法律我不會做這樣的事情不好"},{"start":15274.961,"end":15296.527,"text":"不夠完美但可以用可以符合實際上面的需要那我只希望說可能可以請主管的部會特別是NCC我們用附帶決議的方式到時候是不是可以請NCC朝你一個附帶決議等到我們到院會處理這所謂的打詐事法的時候提一個附帶決議說"},{"start":15299.047,"end":15322.613,"text":"這個過了以後未來NCC針對電信管理法相關條文的調整應該要把它提出來做一併的修正那我覺得有這個附帶決議當作提醒大家也知道說未來電信管理法這次漏了沒有處理到沒有關係但我們下次還是要處理這樣NCC可以接受嗎好那麼請蔡組長趕快擬一個附帶決議那莊委員"},{"start":15326.574,"end":15345.626,"text":"對,黃委員提的很有意思啊。不好,不過完美,但是可以用。那當然啦,我們今天在這邊講的都是在做一個提醒啦。我最很怕的是什麼你知道嗎?我們現在都幫你通過了,你其他人說好啦,我們後面再來執法再來做,甚至於你們早上本來講的是說我們這是行政內部的一個監控。"},{"start":15347.227,"end":15357.374,"text":"我剛才一直在想一個問題就是說像這個像這個整個網路的通訊流量像這些東西其實就類似軌跡嘛啊你這要放多久你們有沒有初步的想法有沒有初步的想法來請說我們這個其實真的都是核心問題啦我可以一輩子讓你在那裡說你想到了,心情好了司法、警察就可以把他調取"},{"start":15377.046,"end":15396.354,"text":"審法會三十年前經過哪裡有點開玩笑了嘛我意思是說你們要初步一個構想不能說後來我們的執法我們的通過到我的執法我再來想一下當然就是要讓你們去用審這個法律本來就是打仗那其實這個"},{"start":15397.674,"end":15421.788,"text":"我都認為有點偷渡了啦 這個其實也不只是在打詐 也都OK打極犯罪我認為也都OK可是問題就是說 那小孩先算我請測啦 要先講我請測我是覺得 你說法律立法院定出來你本來要一個明確性那可是呢 通過了以後反而是我還沒有看到說你們初步的想法就是說 啊不然你想什麼 這東西要撈多久"},{"start":15424.09,"end":15424.21,"text":"二、繼續併案審查"},{"start":15442.769,"end":15459.522,"text":"新聞報告了吼那就已經通過的電信技術部分他現在留的大概留一年吼那未來的這個網路流量的部分其實我們在行政院審查早就已經評估過這涉及到你留的時間長久還你抽樣的比例還漏接的可能性這個"},{"start":15460.503,"end":15461.383,"text":"我們在14條之一徵定的14條之一的最後一項有寫"},{"start":15487.935,"end":15506.996,"text":"我看到我看到所以我問的就是說你有一個選項要讓我們知道啊那都要想一下國家預算要開支的你連建制吳宗昇有建制以後就變成業者他變成他的法定義務囉跟委員報告包括建制費用的評估的部分我們也請各大業者也評估過了"},{"start":15507.577,"end":15532.228,"text":"也評估過了。因為那個涉及到我剛剛講的你要留多少留多少取多少留多少那個費用都不一樣那未來再本法好來請那個黃總召來但我覺得這件事重要剛剛次長我很欣賞你的坦率業者都評估過了嘛"},{"start":15533.238,"end":15555.895,"text":"不同的範圍不同的期間會有不同的費用那顯然業者有給你們法務部一個他們評估的估計嘛那個資料可不可以提供給司法及法制委員會全體委員一定有啦要不然你不會講這個話是不是這些資料應該提供給所有司法及法制委員會的委員業者一定有提供給你們"},{"start":15557.233,"end":15574.548,"text":"多少的範圍多少的長度大概費用是多少錢這個打擊犯罪絕對有必要啦老實講電信業者該給人家的給人家我們不會有意見啦但問題是你要讓大家知道我們現在在談的是多少錢"},{"start":15576.34,"end":15594.783,"text":"這個是不是可以請召委請法務部提供這個涉及到犯罪徵房未來我們需要取得犯罪徵房的成本的問題那也是立法院未來審議預算的所要說明的那次長這個部分剛剛就黃總召提到的部分因為這待會我們14條之一的第6項就在處理這個部分"},{"start":15595.672,"end":15609.455,"text":"要不然我們這樣子就是說相關的評估因為這涉及到業者的營業秘密我們把他們抽象化的代號的一個方式來抽象化的一個去識別化的方式去表達業者評估的成本我想至少是在我們進行黨團協商之前要提供吧"},{"start":15619.002,"end":15637.468,"text":"好不好那個黃總召我用黨團協商之前做個時間點來啦現在給他兩個禮拜好不好搞不好我們下禮拜就黨團協商了不是啦因為喔任何的資料你要負責任都要消化啊你如果怕預防這樣那這樣可以我具體建議壓三天"},{"start":15638.688,"end":15640.35,"text":"你們要清楚講啊,我們給你們合理的時間。"},{"start":15656.588,"end":15683.609,"text":"一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周一周"},{"start":15686.343,"end":15701.532,"text":"那是不是這個部分因為文字看來規範的對象範疇是相當接近啦那是不是我們因為剛剛要的是未來在黨團協商的時候所需要確認的"},{"start":15703.663,"end":15728.449,"text":"那請教各位委員對十四條之一他都在細則裡面要表達啦第六項的細則相關辦法由最後兩行由法務部會同內政部並會商國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關定之那麼因為他這裡是一個授權但是我們需要知道委員所質疑的或想了解的有沒有被包含跟表達進去那委員"},{"start":15732.891,"end":15751.502,"text":"我是認為說我們這個委員會我們大家想要了解這個資料這是也是我們未來進一步進一步針對他們所訂定的相關的這些這些保存方式設置期限保存方式保存期間我們將要了解的一個審查的基礎但是"},{"start":15752.642,"end":15775.121,"text":"我想這個不管那個資料內容是如何應該在法條文字上面是不會有影響我們還是會授權無論如何我們還是會授權主管機關來訂定執法我們一定要授權主管機關訂定執法不然這個法怎麼執行所以我是認為說這法條文字的部分應該跟剛才所謂資料的索取是無色的好來那個委員"},{"start":15776.609,"end":15801.968,"text":"關於這個部分確實需要相關的這個施行細則執法來來處理那我早上質詢的時候也有就教於部長一般來講我們相關的法律修法立法過後的執法的時間是大概半年給你們一個時間的半年只是我早上有具體的要求說盡量要去縮短因為你這些東西的處置都很都是委員所關切還要單半年半年"},{"start":15804.059,"end":15804.74,"text":"二、繼續併案審查則不予審查則不予審查"},{"start":15827.421,"end":15854.483,"text":"他是說三個月他會努力這樣子好謝謝吼那是不是委員會這邊主席跟他商量一下因為還剩兩個條文我是不是說我們結束後再用餐啦吼因為我怕現在發便當吼影響到我們討論的秩序可以啦吼委員再忍耐一下好那是不是剛剛有提議說十四條徵定十條之一依行政院提案通過好可以接下來請看第29條有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案"},{"start":15855.68,"end":15874.555,"text":"請大家翻開會議資料28頁跟28頁那28頁我看行政院提案跟民眾黨黨提案內容文字是一樣的那是不是我們可以按行政院提案的通過可以"},{"start":15876.451,"end":15892.701,"text":"可以嗎?可以啊可以齁都一樣好那我們就按行政院提案通過那接下來第31條也是有行政院提案跟台灣民眾黨團提案那內容上是有些許的區別齁請問委員有沒有要表示意見啊來黃總召"},{"start":15898.444,"end":15914.158,"text":"我只是要請教一下因為之前針對於電信業者他們的協力義務因為在行政法上面的協力義務如果違反這個協力義務的話是處50萬以上250萬以下的罰環"},{"start":15922.066,"end":15942.358,"text":"這是第一個我們在整個行政法上面違反這個協議義務除了法官以外經通知限期遵行而不遵行按日連續處罰那最後還有個法律效果可以把他的退許或許可給撤銷掉"},{"start":15943.936,"end":15966.707,"text":"那我們現在改回來了以後這個協力義務的執行你們到目前為止看起來就是出發犯那暗刺出發那最後那個最強烈的效果把他拔掉了理由是什麼因為等於是說啊那個電信業者在你給皮皮啊"},{"start":15967.881,"end":15993.155,"text":"我老實講啦電信業者罰個新台幣五十萬以上兩百五十萬以下你跟他每年的銀額比起來那很難三的啦我這樣說應該沒有錯啦看起來金額好像很嚇人跟每年的銀額比起來那個真的是很難三的啦那你們怎麼會最後自己決定要把最有最有牙齒的那個東西給拿掉好蔡組長請說明"},{"start":15995.723,"end":16014.767,"text":"是,這個跟委員報告從電信法轉軌到電信管理法先前是採許可特許制可是在電管法現在已經改成登記制登記制有提供這些"},{"start":16017.128,"end":16018.289,"text":"二）行政院函請審"},{"start":16035.057,"end":16061.179,"text":"他的登記是因為他提供了這些電信服務而這些電信服務是為了考量相關的一些民眾他電信上的一個需求所提供這個服務所以這一部分他必須是應該在這個登記的一個範圍那什麼時候會廢止他的這個登記在我們電信管理法第7條除了他終止營業"},{"start":16062.5,"end":16062.86,"text":" ．二）行政院函請審"},{"start":16079.71,"end":16079.95,"text":" ．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":16098.557,"end":16101.218,"text":"謝謝蔡組長說明大家可以參考今天法務部的報告第六頁第五點來那個是吳奧偉再來是黃總召"},{"start":16129.733,"end":16155.234,"text":"我覺得法律的設置還是要有它的效果啦那你對於這些不配合的我不想說在重演之前曾經有去搜索過那時候叫台灣大哥大嘛還是哪一間我有點忘了曾經去搜索過他們的機房啦那你這個50萬到250萬的這個這根本就是對中小企業在處罰的金額啊你今天去罰那三大電信業者嘛"},{"start":16156.274,"end":16156.294,"text":"黃總裁"},{"start":16174.549,"end":16197.047,"text":"我這樣說明好了啦就是說依照電信管理法的規定申請電信事業登記應檢據申請書向主管機關辦理嘛我知道你剛剛想要把它鋪陳的方式是說你有提供電信服務你就要登記但我覺得你話不能這樣子講第一個事情是"},{"start":16198.41,"end":16224.43,"text":"台灣是一個法治國家我們什麼時候變成了說啊你只要有提供電信服務你一定要來登記意思是什麼意思是我們政府一定要接受你的登記登記完了以後我們拿你沒皮條怎麼可能是這樣子嗎你如果在登記的過程當中如果有出現違法的事情你剛還講的是廢紙廢紙是事後發生的事由"},{"start":16225.609,"end":16242.095,"text":"移民計劃書的變更他歇業所以才用廢紙的概念所以才用廢紙的概念嘛那有一個最簡單的事情是說那他如果在取得申請登記的過程當中那本身就違法的話你要怎麼處理所以"},{"start":16246.406,"end":16265.591,"text":"對於這些大的電信業者法條的文字上面我覺得可以修正可以修正可以再論可以再論可以修正但對於這一些違反這一些在法律上配合義務的業者誠如剛剛吳昭偉所講的你罰個50萬到250萬"},{"start":16274.622,"end":16304.012,"text":"有什麼實際上面的效果啊我們本來的法條喔還不是這一次修正的時候新增加上去的喔本來的法條就有賦予你們這樣子的權利的那你只是配合電信管理法的修正文字列做調整就好啊怎麼會搞到現在我們現在在整個通訊偵查上面我覺得整個大的方向上面好像是不好意思我這樣講喔不要介意啊"},{"start":16305.444,"end":16330.038,"text":"是要讓電信業者他們比較開心嗎?要做這個事情的時候我們還要編預算給他錢啊不配合的時候罰個50萬到250萬把終極的武器自廢武功這次修法的時候我們主管機關面對電信業者自廢武功這樣真的對嗎?這樣真的好嗎?"},{"start":16335.639,"end":16361.667,"text":"好謝謝黃總這樣好不好因為呢這四色道電信管理法的修改齁他從原來的特許或許可改為登記在電信管理法新的第五條第六條有明定那這條我想大家有疑議我們是不是就保留啦好不好就把它保留齁那麼第三條保留那現在呢這邊做幾個處理齁要證得大家的意見齁這邊首先第四條之一我們剛剛有通過但是有一個附帶決議是不是我請大家看一下可以的話我們就來處理齁那請簽名後發給大家"},{"start":16364.648,"end":16383.067,"text":"那再過來呢跟那個黃總召說明一下因為剛剛第五條的部分齁因為這裡有一個修正動議是第五條跟第六條一併修正但是剛剛我們在審查第五條的時候已經通過了那第六條呢是因為因有這個修正的我們先暫時保留但是呢我看這個修正動議內容第五條、第六條是連動的"},{"start":16384.048,"end":16402.669,"text":"你要是第六條修第五條就要修是不是我這樣建議說我們可以第五條第六條第六條比照第五條就按行政院提案通過但是我們在黨團協商的時候這個修正動議還是因為你沒有啦我這樣講好了吼我們現在委員會還沒有結束嘛"},{"start":16403.59,"end":16427.592,"text":"那現在委員會還沒有結束我很清楚的講法務部都已經講得那麼清楚了你第五條第六條不能夠按照現在行政院的版本貼因為他沒有把打詐專法的四三四四放進去嘛啊你這樣子修會很好笑啦所以我認為兩個方法一個你第五條第六條都保留這我可以接受啊第二個要不然你就第五條第六條依照我們剛剛提的修正動議"},{"start":16428.473,"end":16452.331,"text":"因為我剛說講的那兩個法條要放進去法務部也同意了嘛那我們第五條跟第六條也保留啦那那個修正動議請法務部待會去評估若可以的話我們在黨團協商就第五條第六條再按照修正動議通過因為這是至於我們議事的效率考量啦還有議事的規則因為第五條已經剛剛有宣布了嘛那我再回過頭來把第六條保留第五條也保留可以嗎"},{"start":16453.092,"end":16480.828,"text":"好那麼第五條、第六條跟第十一條之一和第三十一條保留那通過的是第三條之一的文字後修正以及第五條、第六條、第七條那現在呢附帶決議請大家看有沒有看到第十一條之一第十一條之一我們既然保留有附帶決議怎麼處理剛剛十一條之一有保留嗎?有保留啊現在是附帶決議是針對十一條之一嗎?"},{"start":16484.424,"end":16513.567,"text":"欸不對這剛發下去的是什麼啊對不起說錯了是14條之一更正那現在我們就請大家看14條之一剛審查通過的條文要不要加一個附帶決議請發下去給大家參考那我這樣直接念一遍啦吼有鑒於調取網路流量紀錄對於人民隱私權及資訊自主權有所干預除事前才法官保留外並因有事後監督及控管機制以落實人民基本權之保障"},{"start":16514.207,"end":16543.526,"text":"原請法務部與司法院針對調取流量記錄相關通知救濟及加強監督等程序與修正草案第14條之一第6項之授權執法內通盤考量。請問法務部你們看到了齁?請問各位委員對於這樣的附帶決議我們是不是就...要補簽可以啦齁?通過嘛齁?好,同意那我們附帶決議按照剛剛宣讀的內容通過。那我們就開始。"},{"start":16545.712,"end":16549.261,"text":"現在就不用了,那前面那兩不用了。好。"},{"start":16550.745,"end":16578.656,"text":"那本案逐條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會公決本案須交由黨團協商院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明附帶決議一項一併提報院會處理條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":16581.037,"end":16586.303,"text":"議程討論事項已處理完畢本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"153763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d53fb358fcd35289719dbbe5275cafb4dfee11d4b92646584d047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:00:00 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13:11:32","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T13:00:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T13:11:32+08:00","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":911,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時）請教育部國教署。"],["主席：請彭署長。"],["葉委員元之：署長，因為本席很關心學校有關母語推廣的問題，不知道署長有沒有去瞭解一下學校推動母語的狀況，我可以給你幾個字下註解：理想很豐滿，現實很骨感。"],["彭署長富源：仍需努力。"],["葉委員元之：這是很多學校老師的反映。有一位校長遇到一名學生，就問學生：「你學了那麼久的原住民語，來講兩句給老師聽聽看。」結果他講不出來。所以，如果我們理想很豐滿，但現實很骨感的話，那一定就是在管理上或政策推動出了問題。請問我們現在是不是有成立一個國家語言發展研究中心，這部分是不是文化部所屬？我想跟部長請教一下，國家語言發展研究中心這個編制有多少人？它是一個什麼樣的單位？"],["李部長遠：目前還沒有，它只是一個……"],["葉委員元之：準備要成立？"],["李部長遠：它還沒有一個最後人數，它是一個大概準備要成立的一個原則……"],["葉委員元之：準備的原則？能不能具體一點？"],["李次長靜慧：我們現在是先將行政法人國家語言發展研究中心的組織條例送行政院，待行政院核定之後就會送到立法院。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在這個中心還沒有成立之前，推動母語教育最高的主管機關就是文化部？"],["李次長靜慧：國家語言的主管機關是文化部。"],["葉委員元之：所以是文化部嘛！既然是文化部，我覺得你們就要站在最上位的概念去思考：為什麼不管我們在學校推動或是整個社會推動上會出狀況？就以學校為例，我不曉得部長知不知道，或者署長也可以幫忙回答，就是學校現在最主要遇到的困難是什麼？"],["彭署長富源：我認為有三個，第一個是師資；第二個我個人認為是教材，教材上還可以更生活、靈活；第三個我覺得在整體的排課上，對應到學校端實際上的一些運作。"],["葉委員元之：你都知道嘛！確實跟我瞭解的差不多，那就要解決啊！就以國小來講，很多都沒有外聘老師，而是由導師兼，導師不可能各種語言都會，所以就以閩南語教學為主；如果是原住民語言的話就要外聘，外聘老師特別少，有些偏鄉學校不願意去，於是就會出現直播的狀況，即原住民老師在別的地方線上教學，這個其實文化部來做就好了，也不需要到學校推廣。不然的話，就是很多原住民小朋友乾脆放棄，改去學閩南語。所以在現實面上的推動就有很大的困難！然後在排課上面，為了配合較少數的原住民語老師或是其他比較少數語言的老師，有時候早自習要去上課，或是晚自習要去上課。然後你的108課綱，當時是把必修課減少，讓學校開放選修，後來又塞了母語進來，也打亂了學校原本的排課，確實有造成學校端的一些困擾。如果這些困擾，大家度過了，問題解決了，我們的小朋友學會了母語，我覺得很值得，可是實際上，你們有沒有去分析，他們真的學會母語了嗎？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，以這個成效而言，我個人覺得還沒有達到我們想像的水準。"],["葉委員元之：那麼要怎麼做？"],["彭署長富源：委員給我10秒鐘……"],["葉委員元之：20秒。"],["彭署長富源：第一個，我覺得像剛剛提到的師資問題，以原民為例，最近我們在處理他們的證照到底能不能夠到中、高級，他就能夠比較廣泛的運用適合的、適任的師資。這部分很快在一、兩個月內會有比較大的進展，這是原民的部分。客語的部分，剛才提到幾個客語重點的學校，它應該要管制它在117學年要專任師資，我們對這件事情有一套的作法，但因為時間還沒到，中間看到那個效果有慢慢出來，這是第一個師資的部分。第二個教材部分，不管是柯委員所提，還有我自己今天也有帶客語的教材來，個人覺得我們可能要再跟相關單位做一些處理。第三個排課的部分，如果師資可以更廣泛的打開來之後，才有可能去回答這個問題，所以師資的問題滿嚴肅的，滿源頭的。以上這三點跟委員報告。"],["葉委員元之：署長都知道問題所在，我建議你可以常常去跟其他學校聊天。為了要來跟你質詢，我問了非常多人的意見，沒有一個人說這個母語推廣的好話，真的！大家都說做這個事情目前看不到任何的效益。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這樣就很悲哀，你知道嗎？大家認為這件事應該做，可是政策推動到了末端，大家都不接受，你沒有誘發出大家想要做這個事情的動機，所以每一個人都覺得我應付就好，既然課綱有這樣規定，我就做。我需要老師，可是我找不到，那就用視訊的方式，不然就是讓原住民的學生去學閩南語。就是為做而做嘛！你去找校長問，去找老師問，沒有人會跟你說實話，每一個人跟我講：「哎呀，地方推動這個東西沒有什麼用！」還說：「不要講是我講的。」大家都說「不要講是我講的！」實際狀況就是這樣！請問新的文化部部長，作為母語推廣的主責機關，聽到我反映這樣心聲，你的感覺怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：我覺得整個語言的發展的確跟當時的環境，還有父母親的觀念、學校的執行能力有關，能不能執行的好或不好跟父母親……"],["葉委員元之：因為這是一個很重要的議題，可能隨時大家都要來這邊再討論一次……"],["李部長遠：對。"],["葉委員元之：下次來的時候，你覺得可以改進哪些地方呢？"],["李部長遠：剛剛講到，因為有些部分屬於教育部能夠做的，比如在學校推動的時候，我們文化部是沒辦法介入的；父母親的觀念，文化部也沒辦法介入。"],["葉委員元之：父母親的觀念誰可以介入？"],["李部長遠：我盡我的責任在文化這一塊。"],["葉委員元之：如果最後我們把母語推廣的責任歸咎於父母的話，那我就預言這個推廣一定會失敗，因為父母沒有理由要配合你們做這些事情。不然的話，也可以仿照國外的作法，有一些國家就直接把預算補助給父母，舉例來講，越南的新住民，他在學校裡面，一個禮拜學一堂的越南話，回到家裡父母都不講越南話，他學不會，因為沒有這個環境，所以不如就補助給家庭，跟他的家長說：以後是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話。在我的印象中有些國家是採取這樣的作法。"],["李部長遠：文化部是負責台語，我們就有台語家庭計畫。"],["葉委員元之：也可以考慮這樣做，不然砸下去那麼多錢，還有人力、物力；同時也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間，如果都達不到效果，我覺得非常可惜，所以大家不要粉飾太平。第二個是教材的問題，因為我也得到很多家長的反映，他們叫我去看他們的台語教材，說他們都唸不出來，比如「我家」就寫成「阮兜」，「打瞌睡」叫「啄龜」，部長的文化涵養比較高，你來唸一下這段好不好？今仔日拍……"],["李部長遠：我沒辦法唸這個。"],["葉委員元之：你唸一下啦，今仔日什麼……"],["李部長遠：我沒辦法，請比較懂台語的來唸。"],["葉委員元之：這是一位已經很深度在研究台語文化的人寫出來的文章，在學校叫學生唸，沒有一個學生唸得出來，你就試圖唸一下，這不是找你麻煩，這個真的就是大家很努力寫出來的東西。"],["李次長靜慧：「阮欲來去嘉義的阿里山森林遊樂區辶日辶月兩工。大官講伊已經誠久毋捌去遐，進前雄雄予伊想著，阮做序細的聽著，生成愛緊安排，予大官閣去辶日辶月一擺。」"],["葉委員元之：你算是滿強的，很厲害！因為很多人都挑戰失敗。其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題，教育部編的台語辭典也真的是有問題。像「四季」怎麼講？"],["李次長靜慧：su-kui。"],["葉委員元之：對，我知道，中文怎麼寫？"],["李次長靜慧：沒看到。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼寫？"],["李次長靜慧：我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：乾淨的台語是什麼？"],["李次長靜慧：清氣。"],["葉委員元之：「我的房間不時攏真清氣」！"],["李次長靜慧：這是書寫。"],["葉委員元之：台語這樣講沒錯，但是你當作音譯的話，唸起來很奇怪。以前是用台羅拼音，對不對？現在用中文去音譯。所以很多家長叫我唸小朋友的台語課本，說：你唸唸看，你唸不唸出來！我說我唸不出來。我們在場的官員，是因為你本來就很有研究，所以你唸得出來，一般對台語不瞭解的人唸得出來嗎？部長剛剛就唸不出來！所以，我覺得未來如果成立國家語言發展中心，可不可以把教材也編一下，不見得一定要用這種方式，可採取多元的教學，如唱歌，或是用一些大家比較習慣的語言方式切入，語言是生活的東西嘛！在教材上面是不是可以研發出比較適合大家推廣母語的教材。我不知道這部分應該屬於國教署？還是文化部？還是未來的國家語言發展中心？"],["彭署長富源：報告委員，在教材的運用上，一個是教材，一個還有其他的領域，包含生活中常見到的影片、廣告，或是各種的素材，老師在運用上，都可以靈活的來處理。這一些運用的教學方法，可能未來我們在教師增能上會持續努力，並蒐整這些可運用的相關學習資源。謝謝委員的提醒，我們也是一直在精進中。謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：好，加油！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。部長、署長請回。","接下來請黃捷、黃捷、黃捷委員不在。","我們請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","我們請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","我們請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","我們請游顥委員、游顥、游顥委員不在。","我們請謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有黃仁委員、陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.99284375,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.49034375,"end":3.9797187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.54096875,"end":4.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.31721875,"end":5.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.66721875,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.114093750000002,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.04159375,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.96909375,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.17159375,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.65221875,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.57159375,"end":37.189718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.016593750000006,"end":44.564093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.05346875,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.33596875,"end":51.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.085968750000006,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.642218750000005,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.156593750000006,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.523468750000006,"end":61.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.11409375,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.025343750000005,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.23846875000001,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.07784375,"end":78.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.09471875,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.68096875,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.74846875,"end":79.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.03096875,"end":81.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.04784375,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.15221875,"end":91.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.59034375,"end":96.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.92721875000001,"end":99.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.61034375000001,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.23471875000001,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.65659375000001,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.93909375000001,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.10659375,"end":116.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.39659375000001,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.34971875000001,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.63596875,"end":125.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.15909375000001,"end":138.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.08284375000001,"end":127.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.30221875000001,"end":127.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.57034375,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.02596875,"end":143.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.92409375,"end":145.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.23596875,"end":157.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.49159375000002,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.24659375000002,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.01409375,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.04784375,"end":163.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.42721875,"end":171.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.07159375,"end":176.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.53909375,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.09784375,"end":213.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.05659375000002,"end":217.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.20784375000002,"end":218.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.89534375000002,"end":221.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.66721875000002,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.06784375,"end":227.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.40471875,"end":228.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.60284375,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.76721875,"end":230.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.25221875000003,"end":232.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.38721875000002,"end":232.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.39971875,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.77909375,"end":303.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.60784375000003,"end":308.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.75909375000003,"end":308.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.80971875,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.89409375,"end":309.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.02909375,"end":335.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.636593750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舉例來講 新住民 越南的新住民政府就 他在家裡面 他在學校裡面學一個禮拜一堂的越南話回到家父母都不講越南話 他學不會 沒有這個環境那不如就補助給家庭 跟他講說以後你是不是可以多跟你的小孩講越南話好像 我好像印象中有國外是採取這樣的做法"},{"start":439.443,"end":455.87,"text":"那個文化部是負責臺語我們就有臺語家庭企劃對 也可以考慮這樣做啦不然錢扎下去用那麼多人力物力其實你也排擠掉學生學習其他科目的時間嘛但如果都達不到效果我覺得非常可惜"},{"start":456.69,"end":472.254,"text":"大家不要粉飾太平第二個是教材的問題因為我也有得到很多家長反應很多家長就說叫我去看他們的台語教材說他們都念不出來比如說我們溫刀溫刀就寫成晚刀然後什麼打瞌睡叫濁閨"},{"start":479.793,"end":504.818,"text":"部長你還是部長唸一下部長你文化涵養比較高你唸一下這段好不好金載日拍我沒辦法唸這個你唸一下啦金載日什麼我沒辦法請這個比較懂台語的來唸你唸一下這是一個已經非常研究他已經是很深入在研究臺語文化的人寫出來的文章"},{"start":506.35,"end":523.398,"text":"然後在學校叫學生唸啊學生每一個學生唸得出來你唸一下唸一下第一句試圖唸一下這不是找你麻煩這個就真的就是大家很努力寫出來的東西我們就去來去教他的阿里山森林遊樂區七頭兩崗大家說他已經很久不去寫"},{"start":531.101,"end":559.537,"text":"讓他選擇我們最少會聽﹖很快安排給大家大家再去祈禱請拜你算是蠻強的算很厲害啦你很厲害因為很多人都挑戰失敗很多人挑戰失敗那其實我舉這個例子只是反映現在教材真的有問題啊教育部編的《台語辭典》也真的是有問題啊對不對清什麼四季怎麼講"},{"start":563.421,"end":590.317,"text":"四季四季對我知道那你中文是怎麼寫中文怎麼寫啊我沒看到耶怎麼寫我不知道乾淨的中文是什麼清氣中文是什麼他寫親氣啦我的房間不時榮珍親氣啦這是書寫啦他一直這樣講沒錯但是你用這個當作音譯的話念起來很奇怪"},{"start":592.103,"end":607.622,"text":"以前是用羅馬拼音嘛,用什麼,對不對,台文,台羅拼音嘛,現在是用中文去音譯嘛。所以很多家長說,他說你叫我啦,去念小朋友的台語課本啊,說你念看看,你念出來念不出來。我說我念不出來啊。"},{"start":611.904,"end":626.64,"text":"我們在場的官員是因為你本來就很有研究你唸得出來一般對台語不了解的唸得出來嗎部長剛剛就唸不出來啊所以我覺得說未來如果成立這個國家語言翻譯的東西可不可以把教材也編一下不見得一定要用這種方式嘛"},{"start":627.741,"end":650.495,"text":"採取多元的教學啊、唱歌啊或者是用一些比較大家習慣的語言的方式切入啊語言是生活的東西嘛是不是可以在教材上面也可以研發出一個比較適合大家推廣母語的教材那這個我知道是應該是屬於國家屬的還是屬於文化部還是屬於國家語言、未來的國家語言發展中心"},{"start":652.429,"end":672.066,"text":"在教材的運用上一個是教材一個還有其他的領域包含像生活中常見到的影片、廣告或是各種的素材在老師在運用上都可以靈活地來予以處理那這一些運用的教學方法"},{"start":672.406,"end":672.626,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員部長、署長請回"}]}},{"id":"153762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d54b93ef54bd49211c9dbbe5275cafb4dfeca3bf0a5e693a83a602a2cfbf58b3ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:36:56 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10:49:51","影片長度":"00:12:55","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:36:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:49:51+08:00","duration":775,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":322,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時37分）謝謝主席，請文化部李部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長好。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：前陣子有許多臺灣藝人到中國表演的時候對於政治局勢做表態，也引起軒然大波，到現在還是很多民眾在關心，當時文化部這邊有回應說這種事情絕對不會發生在民主自由的臺灣，這句話本席予以肯定，也就是我們文化部的這個態度。相對來說，過去我們都認為透過文化、音樂的交流可以增進中國人民對臺灣的認識，進而瞭解並尊重臺灣的不同，但是從這些表態的事件來看，事情並不是我們想的那個樣子。部長，你認為我們對於這些不屈服、不表態，或是表達守護民主自由的這些藝人是不是應該給予鼓勵？"],["李部長遠：當然，今天我願意來當文化部長，其實第一個就是希望改善整個臺灣的文化生態，包括電影、電視、文學、繪本、戲劇，我們投注了比過去更多的經費，我這兩天還跑去拜會國家發展委員會並爭取更多的預算，其實就是希望臺灣本身的文化人也好、藝人也好，可以在這個地方得到一個表達、表演的機會，而且臺灣相對於中國，差別在於各種題材都是非常自由的、非常自由的各種題材，可以有多元的表達。包括香港有很多電影工作人員也來到臺灣，因為他想尋求一個更自由的環境可以創作，對於這一點我滿有信心的，因為我個人發現目前臺灣的文化工作者，包括電影、電視、戲劇、文學的能量已經非常飽和，只要我們願意給他環境，他就可以做更好的作品。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長，我們國家提供給這些藝人，包括文化創作者，一個自由、安全的空間讓他們可以自由發揮。但是我們是不是可以再用其他的方法讓更多臺灣藝人或是世界各國的藝人願意站在守護民主自由的臺灣這一邊？例如我們是不是開闢節目，或者讓我們的藝人有更多國際舞臺的空間呢？我們文化部是不是有思考過怎樣去做規劃？"],["李部長遠：有，其實我們現在有很多預算是用在國際合作，希望我們的演員、我們的戲劇可以出去，然後他們也可以進來投資，所以目前我們跟過去的最大差別就是我們每一部電影或戲劇都有兩、三個國家在合拍。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長。其實我提到這個議題並不是預設仇中的立場，而是希望國跟國之間要互相尊重、各自安好，但是我們面對中國，不管在國際的會議上、賽事上都有各種不合理的打壓，我們還是要有我們自己的志氣喔！謝謝部長。","接下來請教部長，媒體報導嚴家淦紀念協會遭指八年前以修復故居為由，由文資局出面向臺銀無償借用鄰近兩處古蹟來暫放文物，並且已經二度續借之後仍然拒絕遷出，文資局這邊回應是陸續都有溝通，針對古蹟遭到無償占用這個部分，請問目前溝通的狀況怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：這個已經八年了，但是距離我們修好還有兩年半，文資局必須跟臺銀繼續借自由之家來擺放文物，文物大概有一、兩萬件。所以我們現在的角色是，第一，我們要保護那些文物；第二，我們要趕快做資產活化；第三，我們要尊重所有人民可以早日使用這個地方、欣賞這個地方，而且回憶歷史。所以……"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長的回應，這也是我今天質詢這個議題的重要，也就是對於這個古蹟保存，我們該做的努力跟我們什麼時候可以開放給民眾參觀，這個事宜攸關到民眾的權益。我們還有兩年半，剛剛部長說還有兩年半嘛？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：在這兩年半裡面，除了古蹟修復的部分之外，這五年來，這個協會有取得文資局超過2,200萬維護臺銀兩處古蹟的標案，關於這兩處古蹟的維護，現在進行得怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：我是不是請文資局的局長來跟你回答？因為這個案子已經做了8年了。"],["陳局長濟民：報告委員，關於自由之家跟大同之家，我們借來之後還是善盡保護古蹟的責任，所以我們裡面的清潔維運也都是照古蹟的標準去做維護，至於那些標案都是公開招標。"],["陳委員秀寳：我沒有質疑它是不是公開招標，我是說既然它標到了這樣的標案，裡面維護的狀況如何、進度如何，什麼時候可以開放給民眾參觀，是不是會後你給我一份書面報告，好不好？"],["陳局長濟民：好。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分我要提醒文資局，既然已經認定是國家的古蹟，應該要很積極地來辦理相關的事宜，不應該由協會長期來占用，希望文化部跟文資局你們可以正視這個問題，會後要給我報告。","接下來關於生成式AI的規範，我要請教部長，本席從去年就一直很關心生成式AI在文化藝術方面應用所產生相關的問題。從生成式AI發展以來，已經迅速地在各個領域都很大方面的在使用，之前有歌手使用AI創作想要參加金曲獎的爭議之後，也發生了美術比賽的參賽者使用AI創作的情形，顯見AI使用亟需相關的指引規範。但是從本席上次質詢之後，文化部一直到5月13日，才發了一個文化藝術應用生成式AI規範策略規劃的藝文採購案，所以文化部是現在才開始研議嗎？而且這個履約的期限是到明年114年5月，還有一年的時間，到那個時候我們才能提出生成式AI的規範嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：請次長回答，因為這個問題真的是蠻複雜的。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，請次長。"],["李次長靜慧：謝謝委員的垂詢，的確上次委員有提到生成式AI我們該如何規範，包括它能不能參加我們的金曲獎等這些獎項的資格問題。目前為止，我們是先拒絕AI生成的作品有參展資格，這個部分先確認，可是未來AI的發展，因為現在國科會也正在擬定所謂的AI發展基本法，我們那天有溝通，應該會跟國科會一起來研議。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長，因為這個規範的標案是到114年5月，等於還有一年的時間你們才能提出相關的規範，那麼提出相關規範之前，我們能不能先有指引？因為其實整個AI的應用發展是越來越快速、越來越廣，專家也指出現在我們很難用肉眼來辨識藝術作品是不是AI的創作，這部分我們文化部也要有所因應啊！未來在相關的藝文比賽，文化部要如何協助評審去辨識是不是有使用AI的這個狀況，你們如何協助？有指引可以先給這些使用者跟評審者，讓他們有這個依據嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：委員的這個交付，我們來研究看看怎麼樣提早做出指引的部分，讓縣市政府或者是各級舉辦活動的時候可以參考。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝次長，在我們正式的規範公布之前，這個指引要先有，讓相關的單位可以有一個參考的依據。","接下來就今天的專報就教部長，根據文化部的國家語言發展報告顯示，民眾在小時候第一個會說的語言是台語，但是調查也顯示目前40歲以下使用台語的人口，聽跟說的能力已經剩不到一半，顯示台語的語言流失隨著年紀也快速的增加，明顯已經面臨傳承的危機。尤其是現在的孩子，因為他們長期比較有機會去接觸到像抖音這類的短影片，不要說台語啦，其實連日常一些國語的生活用語都已經慢慢被取代。部長也說，抖音裡面有一些短影片其實也是認知作戰的一部分，代表文化部你們也有發現國語及台語的流通是潛藏著危機。部長，我要請教，文化部目前有沒有研議任何措施來強化國語及台語的使用及傳承？有沒有跟教育部研議，如何防止日常用語漸漸被取代的這個現象？"],["李部長遠：我請次長回答。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。"],["李次長靜慧：怎麼樣讓台語使用的語彙能夠恢復、理解，然後增加它的使用比率，其實這就是一個環境建置的問題，所以我們接下來會推出的包括台語家庭，又或者我們鼓勵運用網路、社群、媒體或影音媒體，能夠更多地製作台語類的節目，讓大家接觸台語的機會越來越多。在接觸台語的時候，我們當然希望它在內容上使用的是一個比較正規的、傳統的台語的字彙，而不是像我們現在常常說台語的時候，其實是用華語來翻譯台語，不是用台語本身以前的用詞。所以這部分我們會在補助的項目裡面，去跟這些接受補助的單位，讓他們……"],["陳委員秀寳：其實就像次長您說的，使用台語的環境非常的重要，除了接觸台語，也要有使用台語的機會，而目前我們國家語言發展報告裡面也將台語列為有傳承危機，就是有明確危險的本土語言。平常我們在菜市場買菜，日常生活中，可以發現使用台語的主要的人口其實真的也是比較年長的民眾，甚至可以發現從2歲、3歲開始學講話到30歲的這些年輕人，對台語的使用度非常的低，甚至聽不懂或是聽了還一知半解。因為我們現在講的話，我們可能馬上聽到就知道是什麼意思，可是聽台語他們還要翻譯一下，還要愣一下把它轉譯過來。這個部分剛剛講到就是除了我們要接觸台語，我們還要有機會去使用它。目前台語業務推動，由文化部跟教育部共同來負擔，業務其實分散在兩個部會，而且沒有專責的單位，其中文化部負責台語相關的部分是人文及出版司，但是人文及出版司的業務也很繁雜，而且主要的業務應該是放在出版。所以有學者指出應該設置一個台語事務委員會，專門推動台語相關發展的業務，部長您覺得呢？你認同嗎？"],["李部長遠：認同啊，因為我們目前就是朝著要成立一個語言發展的文化中心。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以部長您也認同……"],["李部長遠：我認同啊！"],["陳委員秀寳：需要一個語言發展的單位來專門負責。"],["李部長遠：我們雖然把任務交給出版跟人文司，可是我們的經費是下到每一個單位，尤其是台語臺，它占我們比例非常高。但是委員剛才講的很有道理，我們會成立一個總管台語……"],["陳委員秀寳：專責的單位。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實本席是要提醒文化部，台語是列為明確危險的本土語言，對於文化部你們在推廣這些台語業務，應該要針對年輕的族群來制定推廣的方案，而且我們每4年有一個國家語言發展報告，我們一樣會藉由這個發展報告來審視推廣的成效。所以部長你也認同成立台語事務專責單位，也請你們儘快來研議這個單位如何來組成、如何來推廣。好，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，部長請回。","我們接下來請郭昱晴委員。在郭昱晴委員質詢完後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.95034375,"end":3.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":5.498468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.66721875,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.820968750000002,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.15409375,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.60534375,"end":63.109718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.61596875,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.52159375000001,"end":104.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.16221875000001,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.68534375,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.09409375000001,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.43096875,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.89409375000001,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.68221875,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.42034375000001,"end":133.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.44471875000002,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.41034375,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.31034375000002,"end":225.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.49471875,"end":191.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.54846875,"end":257.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.52659375,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.43721875,"end":292.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.11596875000004,"end":294.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.12409375000004,"end":298.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.76909375,"end":299.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.27096875,"end":315.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.33596875,"end":316.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.52159375,"end":330.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.51096875,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.85659375,"end":392.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.42096875000004,"end":403.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.31784375,"end":407.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.42721875,"end":407.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.52846875,"end":407.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.66346875000005,"end":407.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.63784375,"end":440.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.27846875,"end":444.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.64096875,"end":485.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.03534375000004,"end":494.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.46846875000006,"end":498.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.19346875,"end":552.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.4340937500001,"end":562.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.1028437500001,"end":567.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.84534375,"end":567.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.84096875,"end":567.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.81971875,"end":569.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.0178437500001,"end":583.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.00721875,"end":605.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.92784375,"end":618.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.8584687499999,"end":700.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":701.3559687500001,"end":705.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":706.2665937500001,"end":709.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.1984687500001,"end":717.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.7509687500001,"end":712.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":713.6072187500001,"end":714.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":716.35784375,"end":718.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":718.41659375,"end":733.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.7434687500001,"end":733.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":733.35096875,"end":734.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":734.17784375,"end":766.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.96596875,"end":767.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":767.82659375,"end":769.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.9990937500002,"end":773.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.96909375,"end":774.96471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.427,"end":5.708,"text":"請文化部李部長。委員好"},{"start":23.632,"end":40.922,"text":"前陣子呢有許多臺灣藝人到中國表演的時候呢對於政治局勢做表態當時也引起了軒然大波到現在還是很多民眾在關心那當時文化部這邊有回應說這種事情絕對不會發生在民主自由的臺灣這句話本詳於肯定就是我們文化部這個態度"},{"start":42.043,"end":62.09,"text":"但相對來說過去我們都認為說透過文化音樂的交流可以增進中國人民對臺灣的認識進而了解並尊重臺灣的不同但是從這些表態的事件來看事情不是我們想的那個樣子部長您認為我們對於這些不屈服逼表態或是他表達守護民主自由的這些業人是不是應該給予鼓勵?"},{"start":63.906,"end":88.213,"text":"當然當然因為我覺得今天我願意來當文化部長其實第一個就是希望改善整個臺灣的文化生態包括電影、電視、文學、繪本、戲劇我們投注了比過去更多的經費包括我這兩天還跑去拜會國家發展委員會跟他爭取更多的預算其實就是希望臺灣本身"},{"start":89.033,"end":104.007,"text":"的文化人也好藝人也好他可以在這個地方就得到了一個表達表演的機會而且台灣相對於中國他的差別在於各種題材都是非常自由的非常自由的各種題材"},{"start":105.788,"end":105.808,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":127.449,"end":130.191,"text":"謝謝部長我們的國家提供給這些藝人包括文化創作者一個自由的安全的空間讓他們可以自由的去發揮但是我們是不是可以再用其他怎樣的方法讓更多的台灣藝人或是世界各國的藝人願意站在守護民主自由的台灣這一邊"},{"start":152.509,"end":158.313,"text":"例如說我們是不是開闢節目或者說讓我們的藝人有更多國際的舞台的這些空間呢我們文化部是不是有思考過怎麼樣去做這樣子的規劃有我們的其實我們現在有很多預算是用在國際合作希望我們的演員我們的戲劇可以出去然後他們也可以進來投資所以目前我們跟過去最大差別就是我們每一部電影或戲劇都有兩三個國家在合拍"},{"start":184.031,"end":184.051,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":199.708,"end":223.102,"text":"接下來請教部長媒體有報導說嚴家幹紀念協會遭指8年前以修復故居為由由文資局出面向台銀無償借用臨近的兩處古蹟來綻放文物並且已經二度的續借之後仍然拒絕簽出文資局這邊有回應說是陸續都有溝通那針對說古蹟遭到無償佔用這個部分請問目前溝通的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":225.563,"end":252.686,"text":"好 這個已經八年了但是距離我們修好還有兩年半然後文資局必須跟臺雲繼續借他的那個自由之家然後來擺他的文物文物大概有一兩萬件所以我們現在的角色是第一我們要保護那些文物第二我們要趕快的做資產活化第三我們要尊重所有的人民可以"},{"start":253.246,"end":256.069,"text":"謝謝部長您的回應這也是我今天質詢這個議題的重要就是說我們什麼時候對我們這個古蹟保存的這個我們該做的努力跟我們什麼時候可以開放給民眾參觀這個事宜這也是攸關民眾的權益那我們還有兩年半剛剛部長您說還有兩年半"},{"start":276.388,"end":287.915,"text":"這兩年半裡面除了說這個股機修復的這個部分之外呢還有這個五年來呢這個協會有取得文資局超過2200萬的這個維護台銀兩處股機的標案那關於這兩處股機的維護現在進行怎麼樣我是不是請文資局的局長來跟你回答因為這個案子已經做了八年了"},{"start":300.527,"end":315.226,"text":"報告委員就是關於自由之家跟大同之家我們借來之後還是善盡保護古蹟的責任所以我們裡面的清潔維運也都是照我們的古蹟的標準去做維護那至於說那些標準都是公開招標"},{"start":316.857,"end":328.823,"text":"我沒有質疑說他是不是公開招標我是說既然他標到了這樣的標案那他裡面維護的狀況如何進度如何什麼時候可以開放給民眾參觀那是不是會後你給我一份書面報告好不好開放給民眾參觀"},{"start":333.132,"end":345.026,"text":"這個部分我要提醒那文資局竟然已經認定是國家的古蹟那應該要很積極的來辦理相關的事宜那不應該由協會長期來佔用希望 希望說文化部跟文資局這邊可以你們這個正視這個問題"},{"start":348.51,"end":354.913,"text":"接下來關於深層式AI的規範我要請教部長本期中去年就一直很關心深層式AI在文化藝術方面它應用所產生相關的問題從深層式AI發展以來已經迅速的在各個領域的都很大方面的在使用之前有歌手使用AI創作想要參加進取獎的爭議之後也發生了美術比賽的參賽者使用AI創作這個情形"},{"start":377.362,"end":392.189,"text":"顯見AI使用及需相關指引規範．但是從本期上去質詢之後．文化部一直到5月13日．才發了一個《文化藝術應用生成式AI規範策略的規劃藝文採購案》所以文化部是現在才開始研議嗎?而且這個履約的期限是到明年114年5月．我們還有一年多的時間．到那個時候我們才能提出生成式AI的規範嗎?部長"},{"start":405.577,"end":406.32,"text":"請次長回答,因為這個問題真的是蠻複雜的"},{"start":410.053,"end":410.173,"text":"謝謝委員的詮詢"},{"start":439.753,"end":446.937,"text":"跟國科會這邊然後還有我們這個委員我們一起來議論因為我們這個規範的這個標案我們到114年5月等於還有一年的時間你們才能提出相關的規範那好在提出我們這個相關規範之前我們能不能先有指引因為其實整個AI的應用發展是越來越快速越來越廣"},{"start":462.526,"end":483.523,"text":"那專家也指出說現在我們很難用肉眼來辨識藝術作品是不是AI的創作之外呢這部分我們文化部也要所因應啊那未來在相關的關於藝文比賽啊文化部這邊你們要如何協助評審去辨識是不是有AI使用的這個狀況你們如何協助有指引可以先給這些使用者跟評審者有這個依據嗎"},{"start":486.985,"end":514.408,"text":"委員的這個交付我們來研究看怎麼樣提早做出指引的部分讓縣市政府或者是各級舉辦活動的時候可以好謝謝次長就是說在我們規範正式的公佈之前這個指引要先有讓相關的單位可以有一個參考的依據好那接下來就今天的專報來就叫我們部長根據文化部的國家語言發展報告顯示民眾在小時候第一個會說的語言是台語"},{"start":515.169,"end":529.199,"text":"但是調查也顯示說目前40歲以下使用臺語的人口聽跟說的能力已經剩不到一半顯示臺語的源流是隨著年紀也快速的這個增加也已經到明顯的面臨傳承這個危機尤其是現在的孩子因為他們長期"},{"start":530.14,"end":530.6,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":552.606,"end":553.007,"text":"我請市長回答"},{"start":568.891,"end":568.911,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":586.661,"end":607.256,"text":"因應網絡社群媒體或影音媒體的能夠更多的製作臺語類的節目讓大家接觸臺語的機會越來越多那在接觸臺語的時候我們當然希望他在內容上使用的就是一個比較正規的傳統的臺語的智慧而不是因為我們現在常常講台語的時候其實是用華語來反映台語不是用本身台語以前的用詞所以這部分我們會在補助的項目裡面"},{"start":616.502,"end":618.983,"text":"目前我們國家語言發展報告裡面也將臺語列為有傳承危機就是有明確的危險的本土語言"},{"start":633.587,"end":660.309,"text":"平常我們在菜市場買菜啊日常生活中可以發現使用臺語的主要的人口其實是真的也是比較年長的民眾喔甚至可以發現說大概2歲到3歲從開始學講話到30歲的這些年輕人呢對臺語的使用其實使用度非常的低甚至聽不懂或是聽了都還要一知半解因為我們我們現在講的話我們可能馬上只講了聽到就知道是什麼意思可是聽臺語他們還要翻譯一下還要嫩一下就是說欸把它轉譯過來所以說"},{"start":662.971,"end":674.135,"text":"這個部分剛剛講到除了說我們有接觸台語我們要有機會去使用它那我們目前台語業務的推動有文化部跟教育部這邊共同來負擔那業務其實分散在兩個部會而且是沒有負責就是專責的負責的單位那其中文化部這邊負責台語相關的部分是人文及出版司"},{"start":685.838,"end":709.176,"text":"但是人文及出版司的業務也很繁雜而且主要的業務應該是放在出版所以說有學者指出應該設置一個臺語事務委員會來專門推動臺語相關發展的業務部長您覺得呢?您認同嗎?認同啊,因為我們目前就是先要成立一個像多語言發展的一個文化中心"},{"start":710.396,"end":733.228,"text":"所以部長您也認同說是需要一個專責在語言發展的這個單位來專門負責我們雖然把那個任務交給那個出版跟人文師可是我們的經費是下到每一個單位尤其是台語台齁它佔了我們比例非常高但是委員剛剛講的很有道理我們會成立一個總管這個台語專責的單位對對對"},{"start":735.21,"end":746.38,"text":"其實本期這邊是要提醒文化部臺語是列為明確危險的本土語言那對於文化部這邊你們在推廣這些臺語業務應該要針對年輕的族群來制定推廣的方案而且我們每四年有一個國家語言發展報告我們要藉由這個發展報告來審視推廣的成效"},{"start":756.329,"end":756.369,"text":"陳秀寳委員"}]}},{"id":"153761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b79546f07e693e409dbbe5275cafb4df8d38369fa36eb79f6faca63e3cbbc6605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請國教署袁明慧好 國教署彭署長 袁明慧邱副處長好 署長好我們常說語言斷文化滅民族王大家都已經朗朗上口耳熟能詳那背後當然這個關鍵就是師資所以我們今天在這個地方討論"},{"start":41.056,"end":60.141,"text":"我自己擔任立委的當中其實真的是三不五時我會接到一些陳情那些不見得是都會地區就是來到平地都市地區很多家長會跟我說我的小孩怎麼學校被迫上什麼語什麼語"},{"start":62.342,"end":85.349,"text":"這個也不是道聽途說我自己接過的陳情就很多那很多的報導也都會提到說教師荒這個荒是包括族語的教師所以呢在這個當中其實背後就是我們想要來看看到底出了什麼問題今天教育部的專報裡面有提供一個數據"},{"start":86.869,"end":106.597,"text":"米蘭語具有教師資格的將近一萬五千人克語五千多人原住民族語文兩千多人而且這個兩千多人除了包含正職專職的族語教師而且還分了16組"},{"start":108.158,"end":134.781,"text":"所以如果去除16族其實這個數據是有一點點嚴重所以先請教我們原民會跟我們的國教署署長就是到底有沒有去盤點過我們到底需要多少的族語師資然後有沒有去依照族群別去做調查因為我相信有的族群他其實是夠的"},{"start":135.962,"end":136.122,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":147.867,"end":169.534,"text":"就每一個學校內的孩子選完之後能夠提供師資的這件事我們是盡全力去處理但是我仍然也擔心所有的孩子他想要選當他進到了那個42個之別的語系的時候我覺得應該還要再努力"},{"start":171.535,"end":179.7,"text":"對,所以這個數據應該是很大的一段落差跟我們的需求量可是至少我們跟原民會持續來努力對,那這個資料要開始著手調查也希望如果說兩個月內來提供可以嗎?"},{"start":188.855,"end":192.518,"text":"我聽到最多的抱怨其實是說竹語教師說那個證照專業門檻很高啊然後待遇呢沒有吸引力那我們來看一下這些他講的證照資格"},{"start":217.214,"end":232.149,"text":"不論是從校外進來做教學支援的也就是教職老師他是需要語言證照高級以上跟合格證書學校內要來兼主語課他也是需要高級證照跟教師證"},{"start":233.53,"end":240.452,"text":"那麼如果我們來看待遇問題就來了我覺得這也是爭點我之前都有質詢過我希望教育部要來正視為什麼呢以前我們講的終點費260我自己是教師出身這個以前的源頭是這樣給正職學校的老師我們去監課我們去幫人家待課的時候那個有一點點是加班費的概念是給正職老師"},{"start":262.56,"end":284.265,"text":"但是沒有想到後來有越來越多支援教師的時候我們用這樣的終點費他們就會覺得有問題那我現在簡單的講因為時間的關係我們用一個最簡單的算法如果說以這些現在我們提高到360了他一個禮拜最多只能上20堂那麼他一個月的月薪28800"},{"start":287.266,"end":316.005,"text":"這是我們的最低基本工資而且有可能未來的最低基本工資還會高於他所以這個部分他是遠遠光是低於最低薪資的專職主語教師他的薪水是一半另外還有實驗學校的那些民族教育老師多半是年輕老師去擔任他們都有一整年13.5個月的薪水可是教資人員沒有寒暑假只有9個月"},{"start":317.406,"end":337.793,"text":"怎麼會找得到老師?怎麼會找得到老師?所以我覺得證照的門檻是一個問題但是不是最大的問題而是到底有沒有誘因能夠讓他們為這件事情當作一生的職業他們的職質為文化語言傳承來努力我覺得這個部分我們要來一起討論還有"},{"start":340.214,"end":365.423,"text":"這些老師都很辛苦,薪水不一樣同工不同酬我們最起碼給他們一個證明其實我們有一個聘用辦法他們都叫做原住民族語老師不要說你是專職教師我是教資人員不好聽啊其實他們都是原住民族語教師我想這個部分我們也要做最後一點就是我們要去做一個幫忙啊"},{"start":366.383,"end":371.25,"text":"既然教師慌我們找了一堆人拜託拜託來學校幫忙擔任主語教師一下但是我接到好多陳情造成困擾他們怎麼樣呢因為他們學校被要求要整學期投保"},{"start":382.565,"end":406.19,"text":"結果讓他們喪失很重要很重要的農保資格這是非同小可的事情影響他一輩子所以我想這個部分還有很多的問題可以到辦公室我們一起來討論那我現在是想說我最後一句就是希望原民會也好教育部也好不要忘記我們國家語言投注這麼多的錢"},{"start":407.29,"end":432.458,"text":"我們可能會想說好像沒什麼效果我們投注這麼多錢有用嗎我希望大家有一個遠大的願景其實我們還是最後要回歸到我們做這一些師資其實是希望未來能夠有一個原住民族學校一個以該族群語言為核心的一個一般學校那我想這個部分至少要來開始推試辦計畫"},{"start":435.419,"end":450.935,"text":"要不然越來越多人我們的社會對立的聲音對原住民那麼好語言的經費那麼多他們的語言到底有沒有進步國家這樣子做值不值得我們應該要推出一個願景我們要去透過這樣的師資的儲備我們先去做一些事辦的這樣的學校讓大家很快的看到"},{"start":457.481,"end":459.605,"text":"國小畢業走出去那麼會講族語這筆錢很值得我覺得教育部、原民會要好好思考這個問題好不好好 謝謝署長、謝謝副處長、謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5a1ffa4a0c139256c9dbbe5275cafb4df8d38369fa36eb79f6ae45aca37e5d7365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:43:13 - 12:51:40","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T12:43:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:51:40+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（12時43分）謝謝召委，我們今天談的是國家語言發展法推動成效的總檢討，所以我要請彭署長還有邱副處長，請部長先休息一下，謝謝。"],["主席：請署長跟副處長。"],["高金委員素梅：署長，你對原住民實驗學校的成立應該很了解，對不對？好，而且我們施行好多年了；原住民族學校的設立是以原住民族的語言、文化、教育為核心的教育課程、學習成就評量，你應該也很清楚吧？好，謝謝。也就是說，一間原住民族學校的成立，它是需要校長、老師、部落社區、家長和我們的耆老共同支持和辦學才可以推動起來，對嗎？好，所以校長扮演很重要的角色，對不對？好，但是現在地方上有些家長跟我投訴，他們碰到了問題，關於學校校長的遴選制度，當然校長的調動和遴選是地方政府的權責，我們要尊重和支持，可是現在碰到了一個問題，那就是好不容易民族學校的成立已經獲得主管機關核定經費，要開始籌備時，卻聽到校長要被地方政府調動，請問一下署長，這個問題要怎麼解決？"],["彭署長富源：委員所提的這個情況，昨天我們有接到這個訊息，因為昨天接到這個問題時已經是晚上了，是不是可以給我們2天的時間，讓我們就南投這個情況，就相關法律或實際的情形查明清楚後，我們再跟委員回報，必要的時候，針對不是合法處置的部分，我們會給予處理。"],["高金委員素梅：非常謝謝！署長，這很重要，因為我們已核定了民族學校，然後校長要調動，他好不容易才跟地方、部落、耆老和家長等有了共識，萬一新來的校長他不繼續或是他對這些推動有一些不同的看法跟想法的話，這都會影響到未來，對吧？所以2天內給我一個回應好嗎？"],["彭署長富源：好。"],["高金委員素梅：希望國教署不要兩手一攤，覺得這個跟你們無關，這個一定要處理，謝謝。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個我要問一下原民會，請署長先休息一下。我們已經通過國家語言發展法和原住民族語言發展法，我們也編列了111年到115年為期5年的計畫，編列的經費為321億元，然後這321億元，原民會一年只有15億元，15億元要做16個族群、42個語系別的語言發展事務，你認為夠嗎？"],["邱副處長文隆：確實，因為整體經費321億元是分給4個部會、4個大族群，所以……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你們要不要努力爭取一下？"],["邱副處長文隆：我們希望，如果有下一期的整體發展方案，畢竟我們有16族……"],["高金委員素梅：所以原民會要告訴行政院這件事情，對不對？"],["邱副處長文隆：對，我們有42個語別。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！我們今天非常羨慕文化部，文化部的預算還滿多的，光是推動臺語的部分，而我們的原民……剛剛講到，我們有16個族群、42個語系，但1年只有15億元，這真的不夠，所以你們要極力的爭取。","第三個我要問的是教支人員跟直播共學，這就是因為資源分配不公，所以我們的族語師資分為專職教師、教支人員跟直播共學，對不對？"],["邱副處長文隆：是。"],["高金委員素梅：教支人員跟直播共學這兩大類占最多數，對不對？他們沒有勞健保，他們只有鐘點費，然後他們的鐘點費又不符合現在的物價指數，所以你要怎麼解決？要不要提高他們的費用？我剛才講過，教支人員跟直播共學是最基層的，難道他們的工作不是在做語言發展嗎？"],["邱副處長文隆：跟委員報告，現在他們的待遇確實不像專職教師。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！那要怎麼處理？"],["邱副處長文隆：這部分我們也是持續的在跟教育部協調。"],["高金委員素梅：署長，怎麼處理？"],["邱副處長文隆：因為這一塊的聘用和支給的標準是在部裡面。"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，這個原民會能不能幫忙一下？因為它也是語言發展的事項，你們每年有15億元能不能幫忙一下教育部國教署？"],["邱副處長文隆：這個我們可能要回去盤點一下我們的經費資源和各個計畫。"],["高金委員素梅：我告訴你問題，這個一定要。再給我一點時間，因為原民會的問題實在太多了。我們來看一下專職的族語老師，你知道我們現在有幾位專職老師取得高級認證？"],["邱副處長文隆：取得高級認證的老師累積下來應該有八千多名族人。"],["高金委員素梅：八千多名，那這八千多名的族人現在都是我們的專職族語老師嗎？"],["邱副處長文隆：沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：那問題出在哪裡？"],["邱副處長文隆：因為從90年開始到102年、到現在，有些年紀都大了，所以他們應該不會投入族語教學這個行業。"],["高金委員素梅：那你覺得8,000人夠嗎？"],["邱副處長文隆：我們要持續的培育，而且要培育……"],["高金委員素梅：你知道，有一個很嚴重的問題是什麼嗎？"],["邱副處長文隆：因為現在合格的要求是要通過高級認證。"],["高金委員素梅：對，那高級認證出了什麼問題？"],["邱副處長文隆：高級認證當然包含聽、說、讀、寫等測驗方式。"],["高金委員素梅：對，就是以漢人考試的方式來進行測驗嘛！可是族語是用這種方式來認證的嗎？不應該是吧！所以你們是不是應該要修正一下？"],["邱副處長文隆：這一塊委員之前有提醒，所以我們已經跟原語會就我們現在的聽、說、讀、寫等認證方式……"],["高金委員素梅：除了這個部分要精進之外，我建議在高級中等以下學校原住民族族語老師資格和聘用辦法第二條，我們必須要把這個文字修正一下，請問一下署長，同不同意？因為就目前來講，剛剛邱副處長有講，高級認證的確是在我們當時制定法律時，有些人非常堅持，我們就覺得它會有問題，所以我們需要過渡，它並不是法律，我們把第二條改為中高級可不可以？好不好？"],["彭署長富源：這個方向我們來努力，我知道原民會已經有在開會研商中，我們一起來努力。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！除了要精進考試的模式，法律上，我們也要求要把高級族語認證改為中高級，我這樣講是可行的，為什麼？因為我們有先例，原住民族教育法第三十一條「原住民學生參與師資培育之大學公費生公開招生或校內甄選時，應取得中級以上原住民族語言能力證明書」，當時為什麼要用中級以上？因為中級以上才能符合絕大部分的學生，對不對？其中有一個非常重要的點就是，原住民的公費生在畢業之前需取得中高級認證，也就是有一個過渡期，所以專職教師這部分如果沒有過渡期，你就直接要求高級的話，其實原民會在考試制度上面沒有一些精進作為的話，這將會影響到非常多專職教師的聘用，可以嗎？"],["邱副處長文隆：我們跟部裡面一起來研究。"],["高金委員素梅：要討論一下好不好？"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝！不好意思！再最後幾分鐘。語推組織很重要，對不對？請問一下副處長。"],["邱副處長文隆：是。"],["高金委員素梅：現在語推組織執行很多的計畫，對不對？你覺得他們的人力狀況夠嗎？"],["邱副處長文隆：謝謝委員的提醒，因為我們的工作從原來的六大項到去年度減為四項，不過現在確實各族的語推組織就我們所設定的KPI，他們希望我們能夠重新調整。"],["高金委員素梅：我建議你，很重要的一個部分就是，現在姓名條例已經通過可以單列原住民文字，重要的是什麼你知道嗎？書寫系統、翻譯軟體、APP的開發，這些都是語推組織最重要的工作，所以你們回去後要考慮一下他們的工作範圍和工作的精準度，而不是像現在，這個可以滾動的來修正嗎？"],["邱副處長文隆：可以，委員，我們回去檢討。"],["高金委員素梅：以上我跟你說的這些，請你近期內跟彭署長到我的辦公室來好好的討論，因為今天只有4分鐘的時間，時間的確很短，謝謝。"],["邱副處長文隆：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝！謝謝高金素梅委員。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 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謝謝第二個我要問一下原民會我們請署長先休息一下我們通過了國家語言發展法還有原住民族的語言發展法我們也編列了111年到115年5年所謂的這個計畫然後編列經費是321億然後321億呢原民會一年只有15億"},{"start":159.496,"end":163.627,"text":"15億要做16個族群、42個語系別的語言發展事務你認為夠嗎?"},{"start":167.083,"end":191.645,"text":"確實整體經費320因為它分4個部會是個大族群所以你們要不要努力爭取一下我們希望如果有下一期的整體發展方案能夠因為我們畢竟16組所以原民會要把這件事情告訴行政院對不對42個語別對啊因為我們今天非常的羨慕文化部裡面文化部裡面的預算就蠻多的光是推這個臺語的部分而我們的原民"},{"start":192.586,"end":211.928,"text":"有剛剛講到16個族群42個語系你們只有一年15億真的是不夠所以要極力爭取第三個我要問的是教職人員可能要教職人員跟直播共學這個就是因為資源分配的不公所以呢我們的族語師資分為專職教師教職人員跟直播共學對不對"},{"start":212.529,"end":236.593,"text":"那教職人員的直播共學他們這兩大類是佔最多數對不對他們沒有勞健保他們只有終點費然後他們的終點費又不符合現在的物價指數所以你要怎麼解決要不要提高他們的費用我剛講過這兩個教職人員跟直播共學是最基層的而且呢他們的工作難道不在語言發展嗎"},{"start":237.942,"end":238.602,"text":"教育部的國教署"},{"start":263.343,"end":290.382,"text":"這個可能我們回去再盤點我們的經費資源跟各個計畫的我告訴你問題一定要再來就是再給我一點時間因為我真的委員會的問題實在太多了專職主義的老師來看一下你知道我們現在有幾位專職取得高級認證取得高級認證累計下來應該有8000多名主任8000多名那8000多名的主任現在都是我們的專職主義老師嗎沒有那問題出在哪裡"},{"start":291.456,"end":291.956,"text":"那你覺得8000個人夠嗎?"},{"start":305.549,"end":309.752,"text":"我們要持續在培力那你知道問題有一個很嚴重的問題是什麼問題嗎因為我們現在的合格的那個是高級認證那高級認證出了什麼方式出了什麼問題高級認證當然包括他的聽說讀寫的測驗方式以漢人考試的方式來進行測驗可是主語是用這種方式來認證的嗎不應該是吧所以你們是不是應該要修正一下"},{"start":335.254,"end":357.465,"text":"這塊委員之前有提醒所以我們其實已經跟委員會就我們現在的聽說讀寫的認證除了這個部分要精進之外我的建議就是高級中等以下學校原住民族主義老師資格和聘用辦法的第二條我們必須把這個文字修正一下請問一下署長同不同意因為目前來講剛剛那個邱副署長有講高級認證的確是"},{"start":360.006,"end":370.089,"text":"我們當時在訂法律的時候有些人是非常堅持的我們就覺得他會有問題所以我們需要過度他並不是法律是在你們的第二條我們改為中高級可不可以"},{"start":371.95,"end":389.844,"text":"這個方向我們來努力我也知道袁明暉有在開會聯想中除了是要精進我們考試的模式在這個法上面我們要要求把高級族語認證改為中高級我這樣講是可行的為什麼因為我們有先例我們原住民族教育法第31條原住民學生參與私資培育的大學公費生"},{"start":393.527,"end":409.288,"text":"在公開招生或校內甄選的時候他就已經明文規定是要中級以上當時為什麼用中級以上我們中級以上才能夠符合絕大部分的這些學生嘛 對不對那現在呢提中有一個非常重要的"},{"start":409.608,"end":432.331,"text":"主要要點就是原住民的公費生他在畢業之前他要取得中高級也就是有個過渡期所以呢在我們的專職教師上面如果沒有一個過渡期你直接就把它說高級的話其實在原民會在考試制度上面沒有一些精進的錯誤你是會影響到非常多專職教師的聘用的可以嗎"},{"start":434.585,"end":438.15,"text":"最後幾分鐘語推組織很重要對不對請問一下副處長現在語推組織他們執行很多計畫對不對那你覺得他們的人力狀況夠嗎"},{"start":453.945,"end":477.334,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為我們從原來的6大項工作其實到去年都檢到4項不過現在確實還是有各組的一堆組織就我們設定的KPI的部分希望我們能夠再跟他們重新調整我建議你很重要的一個部分就是我們現在姓名條例已經單列原住民文字通過了重要的是什麼你知道嗎書寫系統對"},{"start":479.315,"end":504.903,"text":"翻譯軟體APP的開發這些都是我們語推組就最重要所以你們回去要考慮一下他們的工作範圍還有工作的精準度而不是以現在可以滾動來修正嗎?可以委員我們回去檢討以上我跟您說的這部分請您跟彭署長在近期內到我辦公室我們再好好討論因為今天就4分鐘的時間的確是很短好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b4dd3c17f4662d139dbbe5275cafb4df8d38369fa36eb79f304a0333d62eca4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:32:00 - 12:42:50","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T12:32:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:42:50+08:00","duration":650,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時32分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，我跟你探討一些問題，國家語言發展法2019年推出，所為的目的就是尊重國家多元文化的精神、促進國家語言的發展、傳承、復振。其實這不是單一、一個部會或一部法律就能夠做到的，各部會在語言相關探討當中都需要一起來努力，如果有一些其他部門涉及跟國家語言相關的議題，依據國家語言發展法的精神，文化部也要負責跨部會協調，幫助各部會達成發展國家語言的目標，對嗎？"],["李部長遠：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席首先就要問與外交部相關的。配合國家語言發展法的訂定，我們可以看到護照條例的施行細則也在同一年、2019年進行修法，將外文姓名的申請從原本的國語讀音音譯改為國家語言音譯，也就是說我們可以用臺語還有客語等語言為自己的外語姓名。這一點，部長您知道嗎？"],["李部長遠：我不知道耶！"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，沒關係，我們一起來探討。","近期我們在社群看到一些問題。在臉書社團「臺語社」，有一個網友表示要辦理護照時，希望用臺語教會的羅馬拼音作為外文姓名，但是卻遇到刁難，並被要求提供拼音的證明，而教育部的拼音由於是臺羅拼音，所以被退回。最後他是透過關係，請母親聯絡之前的中區行政院聯合服務中心執行長處理才換成功，我們看一下簡報下一頁的截圖。對此，本席想問兩個問題。第一，臺語的拼音系統只針對臺羅文字一種嗎？俗稱白話字的教羅不行嗎？國家語言發展法針對國家語言的定義是指臺灣各固有族群使用的自然語言，而教會羅馬字在臺灣也有族群使用，涉及信仰問題，可是教育部只公布臺羅的拼法，讓教羅的使用者沒有辦法證明自己的拼音受到國家的肯定。請問對於這種現象，您覺得合理嗎？"],["李部長遠：是不是教育部應該比較知道這個狀況？"],["羅委員廷瑋：教育部可以幫你回答，沒關係，但我還是要回到剛剛說的，我們看到文化部也負責進行跨部會協調，所以對於教育部和外交部出現這樣的問題，我想文化部責無旁貸。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以針對這個部分，教育部目前了解這樣的問題嗎？也就是我剛才舉出的臺語社案例？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，這個可能需要瞭解跟查證一下，是不是可以讓我在下班前請有關單位對詳細的細節瞭解之後，儘速跟您的辦公室回報？"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。簡單來講，現在因為我們有語言發展政策嘛！所以我要跟大家講的就是白話字的教羅以及臺羅這部分應該一體、一起重視一下。","第二個問題，就算國家肯認教會羅馬字也可以是拼音的一環，但很明顯，在辦理的現場也遇到基層人員不懂的問題。請問，現況下針對各部會人力是否有足夠的語言培訓？是否由文化部統籌？能否向外交部及其他部會反映協調，針對人員加以訓練，避免民眾再受到這樣的困擾，甚至無法用自己認同的語言作為自己的名字？文化部作為跨部會協調、統籌者，是不是能夠幫忙、協助這個部分呢？"],["李部長遠：好，我們來扮演協調的角色。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，再麻煩文化部。因為我有實際看到案例啦！所以提出來，絕對不是刁難，而是希望各個部會在語言發展法下，經過文化部的跨部會協調能夠更加地友善。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再者，在本土語言教育的現場發生一些問題，我也想跟文化部作一個探討。請問部長聽過社團法人EdYouth一滴優教育協會嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒有耶！"],["羅委員廷瑋：國教署署長可以一起來聽啦！因為這其實是文化部跟教育部都會遇到的現況。這是一群高中生與大學生致力於用自己的力量讓各界聽見他們對於教育之聲音的組織，每一年都會推出108課綱的觀察報告。今年的報告在5月底剛出，還熱騰騰，其中也針對本土語言進入國民教育實施兩年後分析成效。我想，這群孩子真的特別優秀，還會做出這樣的報告。","首先，在去年的調查中，EdYouth發現學生們針對本土語言列為高中階段兩學分必修的不認同程度達到四成三，比認同的三成二還要高，但弔詭的是只有兩成學生認為學習本土語言不重要或沒有意義。或者，我們看到EdYouth進一步調查，發現教育現場出現一些明顯的問題，有學生匿名反映，學校會明示或暗示學生選擇統一的語言以方便授課，或對學生選擇不同語言表示不悅，認為徒增行政端的困擾，甚至直接告訴同學，學生中有很多都會亂選，諸如閩東語、客語、原住民語，但學校現有的師資就是閩南語，請大家要協助。換言之，因為我是客家人，是客語使用者，可能會面臨學校希望所有人都去學臺語，而我也被逼著只能去學臺語的情況，請問教育部有接過這樣的投訴嗎？"],["彭署長富源：委員所提的EdYouth，召集人是李召集人。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是。"],["彭署長富源：我們有聯繫過。針對這件事，其實在108課綱的前身，九年一貫的時候，我們就有去處理。那時候我在縣市當局長，對於類似這樣的事情，每個縣市的局長都很關心、在處理中。對於現行只有一位學生就要開課的這件事，各縣市都很堅持，如果還有這個現象，只要我們接到反映，都會立即協助，學生可以回報。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有一位就要開課當然是我們希望能達到的，因為基於國家語言發展，我們要尊重各族群。可是我現在問到的就是在教學現場對於有一位就要開課，行政端就會給予明示或暗示，我相信這應該不是我亂編造的，而是有可能的狀況啦！"],["彭署長富源：委員所提的因為也是調查，所以我們也不能說沒有，類似這種事件只要一發生，地方政府或教育部都會非常地關切。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們現在就很關注嘛！對於個別語言的專業師資不足導致學校端作業困難，有沒有因應的措施啊？"],["彭署長富源：關於因應措施，其實我們事前向委員作過報告，也持續跟委員探討。有兩個方法啦！第一個，其實我們過往每年從3月開始都跟縣市一直盤點，每個月一次，到了大概7月以後會每兩周一次，到八月甚至會每周一次。"],["羅委員廷瑋：喔！滾動式修正？"],["彭署長富源：協助全臺灣大概3,800所高中以下學校。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，作細緻的探討，並且把間隔時間縮短去加以了解，這樣也是不錯。","但第二個是成效的問題。目前只有兩成六學生對於課程編排感到滿意，超過四成學生感到不滿意。我想，對於我提供這些數據，你們應該先稍微了解一下。會在生活中落實本土語言使用的比例也僅有二成五，將近三成認為完全無法將課程內容應用到日常生活中，顯示原先本土語言課程想要達到讓學生在日常生活使用本土語言的目的並沒有成功實踐喔！我們能不能說是失敗呢？你覺得呢？"],["彭署長富源：這裡有兩點。第一個是學校課程、教學、教材、環境要儘量能夠跟真實生活情境連結；第二個是社會支持的使用機會，甚至閱聽上都要有大量學習或接觸機會，這一點就說明為什麼是以行政院的角度，而不是只有文化部或教育部而已，要由廣大的各部會一起幫忙，當然這點我們會一起努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以我提出問題，剛剛部長也在旁邊聽嘛！我還是回到那一句，在有語言發展這樣的建置之下，需要文化部作為統籌，幫忙協助各部會協調。但是教育部有沒有做過這個調查？在實行的實務上究竟發生什麼問題，問卷作出來的結果卻是如此？教育部應該提供這些資料回文化部還有各部會，作為協調、統整的依據。你們將擁有的這些數據加以反映，各部會才知道狀況嘛！問題可能很多，可能是教材的問題、可能是教育方式的問題，也有可能是問卷提到的，因為上課時強調羅馬拼音並不夠生活化，這些細節是不是也應該探討一下，會不會導致學生在過程中遇到困難而失去信心，甚至失去了興趣？也有同學認為國中沒有本土語言的課程，導致無法銜接、上課聽不懂，所以教師也很辛苦。","教育部面對這些問題，要如何深入教育現場，幫助基層老師進行解決，而不至於讓本土語言課程變成嫌惡的課程？我想教育部也應該當責，在了解之後好好地探討。我希望如同你剛剛說的，1個月有2周或1周去作細部溝通，就這個部分把他們現在經過問卷調查出來的結果一起放入探討，可以嗎？"],["彭署長富源：可以，包含剛剛委員提到的，不管是教材、甚至老師的教學有沒有太過於側重拼音，而沒有回到學生學習主體，還有更多時候，教材編輯上能不能夠跟現在的真實生活配合，或是難易度能不能夠更呼應學生的學習跟興趣，這些我們會一併努力，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。","還是回到我剛剛一開始的開場，依據國家語言發展法的精神，文化部要負責進行跨部會協調，幫助各部會發展國家語言的目標，部長，這部分也仰賴您的協助。對於教育部遇到這樣的問題，既然我們提出來了，教育部當然要當責去處理，但是有了這些數據，文化部應該也有責任去了解各部會的困難，然後再幫忙、予以統整、協調，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，部長請回。","接下來請黃仁委員，黃仁、黃仁委員不在。","請林楚茵委員，林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請林德福，林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":12.079,"end":40.471,"text":"委員好部長好部長跟你探討一些問題國家語言發展法2019年所推出為的目的就是尊重國家多元文化的精神促進國家語言的發展傳承、附贈以及其實這不是一個單一一個部會或是一部法律就能夠做到的各個部會在語言相關的一個探討當中都需要一起來努力如果有一些其他部門跟國家語言相關的議題依據國家語言發展法精神文化部"},{"start":40.691,"end":47.739,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":48.083,"end":74.294,"text":"好,本席首先就要問的與外交部相關配合國家語言發展法的訂定護照條例我們可以看到這個事情細則也在同一年也就是2019年進行的修法將外文姓名的申請從原本的國語讀音音譯改為國家語言的音譯也就是說我們可以用台語還有客語等語言為自己的外語姓名這一點部長您知道嗎?"},{"start":75.598,"end":91.601,"text":"我不知道欸好沒關係我們一起來探討但是近期我們在社群看到一些問題在臉書社團台語社中有一個網友要辦理護照希望用台語的教會羅馬拼音作為外文姓名但是卻遇到刁難"},{"start":93.042,"end":115.895,"text":"並被要求提供拼音的證明由於教育部的拼音是台羅拼音所以被退回所以最後他是透過關係請母親聯絡之前的中區行政院聯合服務中心執行長處理才換成功我們看一下這個下一頁的截圖那對此本席想問兩個問題第一台語的拼音系統"},{"start":116.815,"end":143.447,"text":"只對臺羅文字一種嗎?俗稱白話字的教羅不行嗎?國家語言發展法針對國家語言的定義是指臺灣各故有族群使用的自然語言教會羅馬字在臺灣也是有族群使用可是涉及到信仰的問題因為教育部只公布了臺羅的拼法讓教羅的使用者沒有辦法證明自己的拼音受到國家的肯定請問這種現象您覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":146.641,"end":168.444,"text":"是不是應該教育部比較知道這個?教育部可以幫你回答沒關係但是我還是回到剛剛說的我們看到文化部也是負責進行跨部會的一個協調所以我想教育部以及外交部出現這樣的問題我想文化部呢責無旁貸所以這個部分教育部目前了解這樣的問題嗎?好台語社我們剛剛所舉出的一個案例"},{"start":170.359,"end":194.853,"text":"各位報告是不是因為這一個可能要我們瞭解跟查證一下是不是下班前我請有關單位把詳細的細節瞭解之後盡速跟您辦公室回報好簡單來講就是現在我們因為我們有這個語言發展所以我要跟大家講就是白話制的教羅以及台羅這個部分我們應該一體一起來重視一下那第二個"},{"start":195.253,"end":210.154,"text":"問題喔就算國家肯認教會羅馬字也可以是拼音的一個一環很明顯在辦理的現場也遇到基層的人員不懂的問題請問現況下針對各部會人力是否有足夠的語言培訓是否有文化部來統籌"},{"start":211.135,"end":225.911,"text":"能否向外交部及其他部會來反映協調,針對人員的訓練避免民眾在受到這樣的困擾,然後甚至無法用自己認同的語言來作為自己的一個名字。我想文化部作為一個跨部會的協調統籌,是不是能夠幫忙協助這個部分呢?"},{"start":226.38,"end":252.501,"text":"好 我們來扮演協調的角色好 再麻煩這個文化部因為我有實際看到案例啦所以我們提出來絕對不是刁難但我們希望在各個部會當中能夠在這個語言發展法下文化部的一個跨部會能夠更加的友善好 那第二個本土語言的教育現場有發生一些問題也想要跟文化部來做一個探討那請問部長聽過社團法人EDU教育協會嗎"},{"start":254.158,"end":254.979,"text":"來,今年呢"},{"start":277.674,"end":293.041,"text":"今年報告在5月底剛出還熱騰騰其中也針對了本土語言進入的國民教育後實施兩年的一個成效我想這群孩子真的特別的優秀還會做出這樣子的一個報告首先在去年的調查中EDU發現"},{"start":294.861,"end":317.367,"text":"學生們針對本土語言列為高中階段的兩學分必修的不認同程度達到4乘3比認同的3乘2還要高但弔詭的是只有兩成的學生認為學習本土語言不重要或沒有意義或者是我們看到EDU進一步的調查發現教育現場出現一些明顯的問題有學生匿名反應"},{"start":318.527,"end":342.27,"text":"學校會明示或暗示學生選擇統一的語言以方便授課或對學生選擇不同語言表示不悅認為徒增行政端的一個困擾甚至直接告訴同學學生的很多都會亂選米東語、客語、原住語米這個學校現有的師師就是米男"},{"start":343.391,"end":357.302,"text":"請大家要協助換言之我們如果我是一個因為我客家人我是一個客語的使用者可能會面臨學校希望所有人都去學台語而我被逼著也只能去學台語的情況請問教育部有接過這樣的投訴嗎?"},{"start":359.881,"end":389.284,"text":"委員所提這個EDU這個這個召集人是李召集人我們有聯繫過針對這個事情其實在剛推的時候在108課綱之前的前身901貫的時候我們就有去做處理那時候在縣市當局長類似這樣的事情他每個縣市局長都很關心在處理中那現行我們知道有一位我們就要開課的這件事我們是各縣市都很堅持那如果還有這個現象我們接到反應"},{"start":389.764,"end":409.23,"text":"對,有一位就要開課當然這是我們希望能夠達到的因為國家語言發展我們要尊重各族群可是現在就問到就是教學現場有遇到有一位就要開課那行政端就會給予他明示或暗示我相信這應該不是我亂編造的是有可能的一個狀況"},{"start":410.35,"end":414.275,"text":"所以我們現在就很關注嘛,個別語言的專業失之不足導致學校端的作業困難,有沒有因應的措施啊?"},{"start":426.818,"end":449.33,"text":"因應措施,事前也跟委員有做報告,我們持續跟委員再探討,有兩個方法,第一個就是從現在3月開始,過往的3月開始,每年,都跟縣市一直有盤點每個月一次,到大概7月以後會每兩週一次,到8月甚至每週會一次,來協助求臺灣的大概3800所的高中以下的學校。"},{"start":450.13,"end":476.572,"text":"這是一個細緻的探討,把時間能夠縮短然後去做了解這也是不錯但第二個是成效的問題目前只有兩成六的學生對於課程編排感到滿意超過四成的學生感到不滿意這部分我想我提供這些數據你們應該先稍微了解一下而會在生活中落實本土語言的使用比例也僅有兩成五有將近三成認為完全無法將課程的內容因應到日常生活中"},{"start":477.533,"end":487.399,"text":"顯示原先本土語言課程想要達到讓學生在日常生活使用本土語言的目的並沒有成功實踐我們能不能說是失敗呢?你覺得呢?"},{"start":489.735,"end":489.755,"text":"﹚羅廷瑋"},{"start":510.601,"end":523.377,"text":"所以提出問題嘛那剛剛部長還在旁邊聽嘛我還是回到那一句就是我們因為有語言發展這樣子的一個建制之下我們需要文化部作為統籌去幫忙協助各部會協調但是教育部有沒有做過這個調查我們實行的實務上究竟發生什麼問題"},{"start":527.142,"end":556.665,"text":"我們問卷做出來的結果卻是如此我們應該要予以提供這些資料回到我們文化部然後還有各部會來做一個協調統整的一個依據你們擁有這些數據來反映各部會才知道狀況問題可能很多可能是教材的問題可能是教育方式的問題也有可能是問卷提到的因為上課時強調羅馬平淫並不夠生活化這個細節我們是不是也應該去探討一下導致過程中有可能因為有困難"},{"start":557.245,"end":557.606,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":578.889,"end":595.972,"text":"這個我想教育部也應該要當責去了解之後去好好的去做探討我希望剛剛你說的一個月兩週一週去做一個細部的溝通這個部分能夠把他們現在所問卷調查出來的結果一起放入到探討裡面這部分可以嗎"},{"start":597.393,"end":618.222,"text":"法院剛剛委員提到了不管是教材甚至老師的教學有沒有太過於側重拼音而沒有回到學生學習主體那麼更多的時候我們的教材的編輯上能不能夠跟現在的真實生活或是它的難易度能夠更服應學生的學習跟興趣這個我們會一併做努力 謝謝"},{"start":620.123,"end":647.19,"text":"那還是回到剛剛一開始的開場依據國家語言的發展法精神文化部要負責進行跨部會的協調幫助各部會發展國家語言的這個目標我想部長這部分也仰賴您的協助教育部遇到這樣的問題我們提出來了教育部當然要當責去處理但是有這些數據文化部應該有責任去了解各部會的困難然後再幫忙去做一個與與同整協調好嗎是沒問題好謝謝謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5be94890b2befc52479f99d17e212a4188d38369fa36eb79f5ada283277b8f26e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:27:47 - 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個問題比如說明年我們巴黎焚化廠要整改的話那這一天一千兩百噸的垃圾你可不可以協調就是其他縣市有餘裕的部分可以讓我們新北市的垃圾進去燒啊然後第二個是如果中央我看到你們有把各縣市整改的計畫都列出來嘛代表說你會有這個時程嘛我不知道說環境部在"},{"start":178.248,"end":200.355,"text":"協調這一塊有沒有做啦?因為你不能夠讓全臺灣很多縣市的焚化爐同時在整改。有這個,包委員這個我們都有跨縣市,跨區域的,我們環管署就是在辦這個角色。對,都有在協調。就不能夠讓所有的焚化爐同時整改,否則的話。不會不會,這個有一個時間順序的。那我剛剛講的那個有關於巴黎焚化廠,如果要整改,環境部這邊可以提供什麼協助嗎?"},{"start":201.535,"end":229.668,"text":"是報告委員這樣子齁那個我們跟新北市環保局其實很密切啦我本身也是從新北市巴黎廠商場擔任過廠長的食物經驗齁在這個部分我們跟他協調有幾個路徑第一個當然是協調到其他縣市是最佳嘛齁哪些縣市現在現在還沒大概還沒什麼時候要協調他只要我們跟環保局再來談嘿"},{"start":231.423,"end":243.352,"text":"署長那個以前我在新北市做議員我常常關心這個議題啦環保局給我答案我都不滿意啦你現在給我答案也是在敷衍了因為垃圾如果沒辦法處理的話影響到是我們社區的民眾"},{"start":244.541,"end":269.75,"text":"我們因為垃圾的問題現在我們像我是來自於板橋啦很多大型的社區他們大部分都是找清運公司在收垃圾但是因為清運公司他的垃圾沒有辦法進到焚化爐裡面所以他要往外縣市送所以他成本就提高了還有他會放掉一些小的客戶所以導致於後來的客戶他的成本越來越高他要付的這個費用就越來越高所以每一個人都感覺垃圾費漲啊"},{"start":271.371,"end":288.105,"text":"每個人都感覺到社會長那歸根清源就是焚化爐的量不夠所以我現在聽署長的態度就是空話你要怎麼解決這個問題你要怎麼協助還是你覺得這是地方環保局的事還是請部長回答這個我們會協調啦怎麼協調嘛因為這個已經很多年的問題了啊"},{"start":295.987,"end":312.948,"text":"法委員那個剛才委員所擔心的這個垃圾我們這幾年來從來沒有一包垃圾是流落街頭的這個請委員報告費用就提高了嘛我剛講的不是只有垃圾流落街頭的問題第一個大家垃圾費就提高了嘛"},{"start":314.178,"end":337.608,"text":"然後很多社區因為他的本來找簽訂公司然後垃圾費提高之後他就不找簽訂公司他就改丟清潔隊然後清潔隊現在人力物力也不夠所以很多新型的社區希望垃圾車可以開到他的社區旁邊不願意開啊因為量能不夠啊所以你影響的不僅是一般的事業廢棄物你影響這社區的生活垃圾你也影響到一般的民眾啊"},{"start":338.328,"end":352.319,"text":"那你現在只有告訴我說沒有流落街頭所以我就好棒棒可是我剛剛舉出來那些問題例如說他們在倒垃圾不方便倒垃圾的費用成本的增加這些你都沒有解決啊"},{"start":353.952,"end":373.941,"text":"所以我不知道說你們環境部你們對於垃圾這個問題KPI只要是路上看不到垃圾你就好棒棒是這個意思嗎各位報告當然這幾年我們是逐漸在推動一些設施因為我時間到了我希望說因為剛剛講的確實是很抽象"},{"start":374.861,"end":390.148,"text":"非常非常非常抽象可不可以請主席才示一下可不可以給我的問題非常具體好不好因為我們新北市就三座焚化爐巴黎焚化爐即將要整改而且現在也面臨到焚化爐不夠的問題請問一下中央怎麼協助地方來解決這件事情"},{"start":390.928,"end":406.148,"text":"你給我一個具體的方案好不好我拿著這個方案我去跟地方來討論我跟地方的協會來討論我跟地方的清潔隊社區來討論看有沒有可以在環境部這邊才可以幫忙的地方我不知道這樣可不可以那大概什麼時間可以給我"},{"start":410.071,"end":434.766,"text":"報告委員這個北北基桃他有聯防的一個機制在我們北北基桃一起討論之後再跟這個委員報告有機制就有我剛是把問題我很具體的問題講出來是你一直告訴我說你現行有機制現行做什麼但是就是有發生這些問題嘛我就覺得你做不夠嘛所以希望你解決我的問題嘛然後你一直告訴我說已經有機制了"},{"start":435.606,"end":457.51,"text":"我希望你這邊考卷可以考80分你說已經考10分了是不是考10分就夠了現在新的部長來新的新跡象希望新的部長提出新的方法嘛這樣有很要求有很有很過分嗎委員我們會給你一個報告好不好我們協商一下我們這邊研究一下再給委員一個報告大概什麼時候"},{"start":459.207,"end":470.913,"text":"我們要跟地方協商是是是我們一個月之內一個月之內好好一個月之內好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好那請環境部一個月之內再把資料提供給葉委員好好"}]}},{"id":"153757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5ee5932ac9eac83759dbbe5275cafb4df8d38369fa36eb79f2a968d603343e0df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:21:27 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Canady在1990年的時候做了一個研究，結果是讓幼兒浸潤在一個充滿語言和文字的環境之中，他們就會自發地和成人及其他幼兒用各種不同的方式互動、溝通，這些方式包括聽、說、讀、寫，所以代表了環境的重要性。在2004年，黃美津也做了一個研究，他給18個孩子新聞報導，再觀察孩子在用文字呈現、用影片呈現、用圖卡呈現之間，哪一個反饋回來的訊息是最正確的？他們發現，其中影片形式的效果是最好的。所以這告訴我們什麼？影音跟環境是影響孩童語言發展的重要要素。","可是我也看到，小孩語言學習環境的接觸點有家庭、有教育、有影視、有社區，對不對？從剛剛這些結論來說。現在針對母語有家庭政策、教育有本土語言政策，但是在影視上，雖然有公視台語台還有一些臺語兒少節目，但是我們好像還有很多事情可以做，畢竟接觸點不能只有單項嘛！還應該有更多點。再來，在社區這一塊目前也還是有欠缺的，所以我想提供部長一個方向思考，現在寫這些臺語相關政策、社區母語計畫的時候，可以看我簡報以紅色標注底線的地方，都還是用家庭而已、以家庭為概念，也就如同我剛剛講的，可能從這裡再把母語擴張出去、從家庭再擴張出去到社區。而我在想，有沒有可能參考新住民家庭服務中心的模式？因為新住民其實也是散落在全臺灣各縣市，也就是22個縣市裡面，而他們總共設置了39個新住民家庭服務中心喔！以新北為例，去年他們的語文樂學計畫就有11個學校參與，產出的課程有8個案子，營隊有7個案子，親子共學2個案子，然後他們還做第二件事情，就是26所策略聯盟學校規劃了56門課程，總共有4,000人次參與，這樣就創造了基地的概念。所以我在想是不是可以跟內政部研究、或是做個研究報告，來研究是不是也可以做臺語社區服務中心或臺語社區基地，讓這個環境一直持續地被創造出來，這樣才能幫助臺語的學習？不知道部長的看法是什麼？"],["李部長遠：我可以研究看看，我也滿同意的。"],["張委員雅琳：好。不好意思，那請問一下部長，這個研究計畫可以今年來執行嗎？可以來規劃嗎？"],["李部長遠：1個月應該是規劃時間，執行的話……"],["李次長靜慧：我們想在1個月內提出規劃的想法，如果大家同意的話，就看看是要從下半年度或明年度開始執行。"],["張委員雅琳：好，部長跟次長，我還是想強調一點，如果這個研究成效是好的，我自己是覺得可以仿照啦！當然如果研究成效不好，就可以再想應該怎麼做這件事，因為再回到剛剛的研究，環境是很重要的事情。","再下來，我也看到文化部其實編列了非常多預算，上次質詢裡面也講到文化部編列了很多預算，光是影視發展就有9億7,700萬，針對表演藝術也有1億7,500萬，這些其實都回到剛剛講的影視娛樂，沒有錯！這是很正確的方向。但是再仔細看，我發現花在孩子身上的費用好像並沒有那麼地高，例如臺語繪本、兒歌的經費大概是1,370萬，這部分是不是也可以再好好地討論一下現在還可以怎麼做，把現有的投資再變成兒童的版本？或者怎麼做讓兒童獲益，這裡還是回到剛剛講的，影視是他們很重要的資訊來源。","其實這幾年有一個很有名的動畫公司叫做木棉花，是很久以前出過一部卡通，叫做中華一番小當家，最近則是重新上了臺語配音，每天晚上九點在網路上直播，對大人、小孩都很有吸引力。所以我在想，如果剛剛談的那些影視節目中有些不錯的，是不是可以加上臺語配音？","再回到我剛剛講的，在1,370萬這些經費裡面，我想了解的是有持續在增加嗎？跟過去比起來，是持續在增加對兒童的投資嗎？可不可以在會後給我一份詳細的……現在有數字嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告，因為我們的作法基本上是補助案，所以送進來的補助計畫如果有臺語兒歌、繪本等等，我們其實都會儘量支持，可是因為先前沒有這樣推動，申請的量本來就不多，我們是希望透過這樣持續、比較大力的支持，後續在第二季的時候有更多人進來申請的話，我們都會儘量地給予支持。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這部分的話就要再麻煩文化部繼續加強。","那現有部分可不可以再做一些更深入的措施？像今年出了第一張臺語兒歌專輯耶！而且辦了20場幼兒巡迴，還上了Spotify，這些我覺得都非常棒。但我們還是要回歸兒童接觸影音的環境還有哪一些？像是我們還有214處親子館、6,699處幼兒園，若照剛剛說的只辦20場是不是太少了？尤其公幼就有兩千多家了。","最後一個是電子遊樂設施。在散布全臺各大賣場的電子遊樂設施中，現在有很多可能都播一些中國的歌或英文歌，有沒有可能播臺語的兒歌呢？我們的兒歌都已經做出來了，就應該讓它可以更加浸潤在每一個孩子可以接觸的點，目前這三者好像都還沒有，我想問一下部長的意見是什麼？"],["李部長遠：我們來努力，關於臺語歌謠，傳統歌謠中也有很多是臺語歌謠。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯！"],["李部長遠：所以這點我們來推。"],["張委員雅琳：這點是不是也要跟經濟部一起合作？麻煩跟經濟部好好溝通。如同我自己之前在做特色公園研究的時候，也有一些遊戲設施是會播音樂的，我們就讓它播《天黑黑》等歌曲，這部分就再麻煩部長。","最後一個問題還是回到現有場館上面，還有沒有可以更精進的部分？現在有這麼多文化部所管的博物館，其中我發現常設展臺語翻譯在很多大型博物館都有，像是臺灣博物館、歷史博物館、美術館都有，可是史前文化博物館在這一塊、也就是常設展的臺語翻譯卻是缺乏的，我想了解一下原因，可不可以說明一下？"],["李次長靜慧：針對這個部分，我們再了解一下，應該是還沒有做完。事實上，我們去年度是要求文化部的所屬館所都必須做到常設展臺語版本，那它應該是還沒有做完，其他館所大概都完成了。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我再來想確認第二個東西，國立臺灣工藝研究發展中心也是一樣的狀況嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：對。"],["張委員雅琳：也是一樣？好。","最後一件事情，國家鐵道博物館因為還在籌備，所以我希望就盡力把一些該做的項目都加以完備，謝謝。謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，部長請回。","現在請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.65096875,"end":2.8997187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.134718750000001,"end":49.930343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.722218750000003,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.689718750000004,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.14409375000001,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.38221875000002,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.15409375000002,"end":131.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.81221875,"end":149.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.13409375,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.33846875,"end":202.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.76284375,"end":212.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.30159375000002,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.46346875,"end":230.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.23534375000003,"end":245.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.89971875,"end":267.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.07346875,"end":290.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.20909375,"end":306.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.89846875,"end":310.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.41284375000004,"end":316.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.63096875,"end":319.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.39846875,"end":324.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.85346875000005,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.15721875,"end":326.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.62971875,"end":336.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.68034375,"end":326.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.71409375,"end":327.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.91159375,"end":332.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.04596875000004,"end":352.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.78159375,"end":380.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.21596875,"end":403.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.04784375,"end":415.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.89846875,"end":421.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.15909375,"end":432.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.27534375000005,"end":449.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.28096875000006,"end":476.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.70659375,"end":456.07784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.11409375000005,"end":467.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.00721875000005,"end":522.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4597187500001,"end":527.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9653437500001,"end":531.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.07846875,"end":540.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.6303437500001,"end":538.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.54971875,"end":585.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.54659375,"end":593.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.27159375,"end":604.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.0378437500001,"end":622.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.0222187500001,"end":623.8659687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.269,"end":1.672,"text":"邀請文化部部長好,委員好"},{"start":11.455,"end":30.243,"text":"部長好,就是說因為我們今天在討論就是國家語言研究發展中心這個設置的一些問題那我想要特別的來跟部長來提醒一件事情就是說其實我們在講台語就是說像客委會或原委會他們都有負責客語、原住民語但是文化部其實是台語的專責部會"},{"start":32.284,"end":48.499,"text":"我覺得部長需要了解我們這個台語消失的速度是有多麼的快速所以我們必須要積極的來做一些事情那接著從這張表呢我想要特別跟部長說的是說我可以看我框起來這兩個框框一個是11歲以下一個是30到39歲"},{"start":52.052,"end":66.079,"text":"從這個年30到39歲以下我們的臺語能力迅速的下降剛剛好這一群人的小孩差不多也就是未滿11歲以下所以我認為親子是從政臺語的重要族群"},{"start":67.039,"end":85.503,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":86.833,"end":105.471,"text":"再跳回來一下國家語言發展中心裡面我發現就是說在條例簡報裡條文沒有變但是簡報裡的說明有一些細微的文字差異譬如說在2020年我們講的是可與相關單位共同投入國家語言語言輸入法語言辨識、語言理解之研發"},{"start":106.952,"end":126.96,"text":"但是在我們2023年呢我們就變成了強...剛剛那段紅色線的字呢它就變成了強化語料的後續加值應用所以我想要確認喔是說這一個是說我們是希望定義更擴大是希望讓AI可以進來一起來支持我們的本土語言嗎這個我想要確認一下"},{"start":130.916,"end":146.142,"text":"是!是!好喔!那這部分的話,因為其實我之前在質詢國科會的時候也希望說,因為現在有做臺語的這個ChatGPT嘛,臺語GPT機器人。那我希望之後可以,文化部也可以積極地來產出一些相關,整理一些相關的政府資料來協助我們做更多的臺語的應用,來協助臺語的教學。"},{"start":150.368,"end":176.806,"text":"再來就是說還是回到我們剛剛講親子那孩子從很多的論文來看這個Renice Kennedy她在1990年的時候她做了一個研究她的結果是說讓幼兒浸潤在一個充滿語言和文字的環境之中他們就會自發的和成人及其他幼兒用各種不同的方式互動溝通這些方式包含聽、說、讀、寫所以代表了環境的重要性"},{"start":177.526,"end":201.774,"text":"在2004年黃美晶研究了一個他給18個孩子新聞報導然後他就問孩子說我跟你用文字呈現、用影片呈現、用圖卡呈現你們哪一個反饋回來的訊息是最正確的其中他們發現了影片的形式效果是最好的所以這告訴我們什麼影音跟環境是影響孩童語言發展的一個重要要素"},{"start":203.823,"end":230.21,"text":"可是呢我也看到我們小孩語言學習環境接觸點有家庭有教育有影視有社區對不對從剛剛這些結論來說那我們現在母語有家庭政策教育有本土語言政策但是我們雖然影視有公式台語還有台語的一些兒少節目但是我們好像還有很多事情可以做畢竟接觸點不能只有單項嘛還應該有更多的點那再來我們社區目前這塊也還是有欠缺的"},{"start":231.357,"end":256.722,"text":"所以我想請提供部長一個方向來思考就是說我們現在在寫這些臺語的一些政策的時候社區母語的一些計畫你可以看到我紅色底線的地方我們都還是用家庭而已家庭為概念也就是我們剛剛講的我們可能把母語再擴張出去母語家庭再擴張出去到社區但是我在想我們有沒有可能參考新住民家庭服務中心的模式"},{"start":257.382,"end":280.435,"text":"因為他其實新住民也是散落在全臺灣各個縣市嘛22個縣市裡面他們總共設置了39個新住民家庭服務中心以新北為例在去年他們這個語文樂學計畫有11個學校參與那產出了課程8個案子應對7個案子親子共學2個案子然後他們還有做第二件事情就是26所策略聯盟的學校產出了56門"},{"start":281.696,"end":306.471,"text":"規劃了56門課程總共有4000人次參與所以在他創造了一個基地的概念所以我在想說我們是不是可以跟這個內政部或是我們可以來做一個研究報告來研究我們是不是也可以來做一個台語的社區服務中心或是一個台語的基地社區基地讓這個環境一直持續的被創造出來那才能夠幫助我們台語的學習不知道部長的看法是什麼我可以研究看看我也蠻同意的"},{"start":313.657,"end":316.239,"text":"請問這個研究計畫我們是可以今年來執行嗎?一個月應該是規劃,然後執行的話"},{"start":327.125,"end":350.651,"text":"我們想說如果一個月內我們提出我們規劃的想法那如果大家同意的話那我們看下半年度或者是明年度開始執行部長跟次長我想我這邊我還是想強調一點就是說如果我們研究這個成效是好的我自己覺得我們是可以來仿照當然如果我們研究成效不好我們就可以再來想我們應該要怎麼來做這件事情因為環境回到剛剛研究是很重要一件事情再來就是說"},{"start":353.84,"end":380.152,"text":"我也看到就是說我們其實文化部編列了非常多上次的質詢裡面也有講到我們編了很多的預算光影視發展就有九億七千七百萬表演藝術也有一億七千五百萬這些其實都是回到剛剛講的影視娛樂沒有錯這是一個很正確的方向不過我想要知道就是說我們到底有我們但是我再仔細來看我發現我們花在孩子的身上的部分的費用好像並沒有那麼的高"},{"start":382.23,"end":403.769,"text":"例如說我們在台語繪本兒歌的經費大概是1370萬那我覺得這部分我們是不是也可以再來好好的討論一下是我們現在還可以怎麼樣做把我們現有的投資再把它變成兒童的版本還是怎麼樣讓兒童因為還是回到剛剛講的影視是它很重要的一個來源這個部分"},{"start":405.906,"end":432.753,"text":"最近這幾年有一個很有名的動畫公司叫做木棉花那其實他最近也有出一個卡通他很久以前有出一個卡通叫做中華一般小當家但是他最近重新上了一個台語的配音台語的配音那這個每天晚上在9點在網路直播所以大人小孩都很有吸引力所以我在想如果我們剛剛那些影視節目有一些不錯的我們是不是可以加上台語的配音好了"},{"start":434.894,"end":447.453,"text":"再回到我們剛剛講的就是說因為一百一千三百七十萬的這一些經費裡面啊我想要了解的是說我們是持續的有在增加嗎跟過去比起來我們是持續的在增加兒童的投資嗎這可以到之後會會給我一個詳細先有數字嗎"},{"start":452.541,"end":473.301,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們這個基本上是補助案所以如果他進來補助有台語兒歌或是繪本的我們其實都盡量會支持可是因為先前沒有這樣的推動所以申請的量本來就不多那我們希望透過我們這樣持續的比較大力的支持後續第二季的時候有更多人進來申請的話我們都會盡量的給予支持"},{"start":476.024,"end":491.03,"text":"好,那這個部分的話就要再麻煩文化部繼續加強那我在想我們現有的部分可不可以再做一些更深入像這個今年我們出了第一張臺語兒歌專輯而且發辦20場的幼兒巡迴而且還上了Spotify這些我覺得都非常棒"},{"start":491.73,"end":520.33,"text":"但是我們還是要回到兒童接觸影音的環境還有哪一些像是我們還有214處的親子館我們還有6699處的幼兒園剛剛只有做20場是不是有點太少了尤其我們的公幼就有2000多家了然後再來最後一個電子遊樂設施散佈在全台各大賣場的電子遊樂設施現在很多都可能播一些中國的或是英文歌我們有沒有可能播臺語的兒歌呢讓我們的兒歌"},{"start":521.851,"end":522.232,"text":"請問部長的意見是什麼?"},{"start":541.621,"end":568.987,"text":"之前是不是也需要跟經濟部一起來合作那就是麻煩跟經濟部好好地來溝通因為其實像我之前過去在做特色公園的時候我們也有一些遊戲設施它是會播音樂的我們就會讓它播什麼TOO啊所以這個就再麻煩部長然後最後一個問題想要再還是回到一個叫做我們現有的場館上面還有沒有可以更精進的部分但是我們現在有這麼多這個就是文化部所管的這個博物館"},{"start":571.288,"end":585.416,"text":"我發現我們常設展台在很多大型的博物館都有像是台灣博物館、歷史博物館、美術館都有可是我們在史前文化博物館在這一塊常設展的台語翻譯卻是缺乏的我想了解一下原因可不可以說明一下"},{"start":588.601,"end":589.502,"text":"國立的台灣工藝研究發展中心也是一樣的狀況嗎?"},{"start":613.943,"end":621.778,"text":"最後一件事情就是國家鐵道博物館還在籌備所以我想我們就盡力的把一些該做的項目都把它完備謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5dbb2943c59e7a182b42b94709b0a08048d38369fa36eb79f1d18f229ee2f58aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:22:57 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12:29:42","影片長度":"00:06:45","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T12:22:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:29:42+08:00","duration":405,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":946,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時23分）謝謝主席，我請次長，還有公路局。"],["主席：我們請陳局長，還有陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位好。我想今天大家都非常關心的是基隆的山崩，那天我剛好也經過那邊，所以大家看到今天的報告是公路局有非常多監測的方式跟工具。這個地方長期有做監控，或者是有相關的設施在這邊做監控，然後這次有做出任何的預警狀況嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們在這個地方，因為它是有邊坡分級，所以在邊坡分級上，我們在……"],["黃委員珊珊：有沒有監控儀器？沒有？"],["陳次長彥伯：在這裡頭是沒有的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它是屬於C級，所以沒有監控？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天它崩了，接下去會用什麼樣的方式來列管？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會立即提升它的邊坡等級，然後做相關的一個巡檢也好……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以之後就會做相關的監控？"],["陳次長彥伯：監控的部分，我們會依照我們檢討的結果，必要的時候我們會來加監控的設備。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，我知道公路局要管全國各地的邊坡，其實範圍很大，所以如果沒有監控儀器，那你們平常是怎麼監控？像這個地方有沒有被預警？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，邊坡部分的話，基本上，我們列管的邊坡每一週都會巡查一次，再來就是比如說……"],["黃委員珊珊：巡查就是人力去巡查？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，人力巡查。"],["黃委員珊珊：人力巡查有跟地方政府合作嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：因為這個是屬於我們自己管轄的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們要自己看？"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：地方政府有通報機制給你們的話，你們也會去看？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，如果有需要協助。"],["黃委員珊珊：你的人力有限，民力無窮，所以通報機制很重要，只要發生狀況可能都要先講，而且民眾可能第一時間都會先發現。我想這個案子就給我們一個警惕，就是下大雨、地震，將來的極端氣候，這種狀況可能會越來越多。我們希望你的監控不單單只是之前發生事情，長期的人力監控其實我們要用更科學的方法。第三個，可能要打通通報的機制，如果民眾可以直接反映到公路局，公路局可以馬上有一些預警，有一些碎石掉下來的時候，就應該做一些警示啦！"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：或者是你們自己先做一些相關的處理，因為這次崩的真的很快速，而且滿怵目驚心。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，委員的建議我們會納入考量。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以我覺得監控的部分，以現在的臺灣，科技不是問題，只是你要用怎麼樣的方式去使用它。","第二個問題我覺得比較有趣，這也發生在基隆，最近次長不知道有沒有看到，網路上有一位網紅Tony先生，他上傳了一支影片，他說他在基隆的三貂嶺車站旅遊，結果三貂嶺車站沒有任何的行人通道。所以他就拍照，走到了一條維修工人行走的唯一的通道，這條通道因為禁止一般行人通行，在這個鐵道橋上，也因為這樣，所以他違反鐵路法被罰款1萬塊。","其實這個地方有很多的居民，居民平常都是要坐到火車站，一個車站沒有行人通道讓民眾行走，然後讓所有走的人，如果被檢舉就會被罰1萬塊。我們的意思是說，臺鐵是希望所有的人，到這個車站之後是要插個翅膀飛過去嗎？次長有看到這個新聞嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我有看到，而且我們非常重視，所以……"],["黃委員珊珊：而且這個案子就很好笑，你知道鐵道局怎麼回我，這鐵道警察送的罰單，所以他只能開罰。那鐵道警察說，有人檢舉我就要開罰，但還是要請臺鐵提出因應措施。所以一個推一個，鐵道局推給鐵道警察，鐵道警察推給臺鐵，請問中華民國政府要推給誰？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我想委員的質詢，我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果不能給人家一個安全合法的通道，那你把這個車站給廢了吧！你讓這些居民在這邊每天在違法，你明知道他違法，沒有檢舉就沒事，有人檢舉就有事，重點是有沒有辦法做一條讓人家安全回家的路啊？"],["陳次長彥伯：所以這個問題我們有看到，我們大概已經……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個很可笑啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會責成路政司、運輸及監理司，並會同剛才特別提到的鐵道局跟臺鐵，我們來研議應該要用什麼方式來……"],["黃委員珊珊：這種現象不會今天才發生，這種現象可能已經幾十年，然後還要我們看到網紅的影片才來處理。次長，如果臺灣還有這種官逼民反，明明知道，然後讓民眾不斷的在違法，視而不見的政府單位。我覺得你要好好的整頓一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，這我們會來檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：明知道，而且都知道，鐵道局也知道，鐵路警察也知道，就臺鐵不知道！然後要網紅出來才知道，這很離譜啊！如果我們的政府是讓人民每天要做違法的事，這不是一個有為的政府該做的事。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們有……"],["黃委員珊珊：而且這件事情這麼小，還要讓他上到網路才會被看見。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員的指教我們有看到，所以我們會立即來做處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：多久給我個答案？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們可以在……"],["黃委員珊珊：不要再發生了，也不要讓人家走在這邊說，你都要碰到火車，被撞死了是你的責任，因為你不能走，然後你走上去就是違法，是你的問題，你們現在只有一個狀況，就是你們推責任給人民！"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，我們是不是可以一個月內提供書面資料給委員？"],["黃委員珊珊：不是書面資料，你要告訴我你做什麼，這一個月這些人要怎麼走？這些居民這一個月要怎麼回家？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會提供我們相關……"],["黃委員珊珊：安全的路、合法的路！"],["陳次長彥伯：研議的說明，跟研議後的處置情形，讓委員知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果我們要推展觀光，我們是讓人家坐火車坐到那邊之後，沒路可走變違法，叫人家再跳上火車再走回去，那你推展觀光放這個車站要幹嘛？好嗎？次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：一個禮拜給我一個完整的報告，第二個，你多久要完成這件事？把可能相關的措施告訴我。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，我們一個禮拜先把我們打算怎麼做讓委員知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：要做便橋，要做任何事情，我想國軍的工兵隊都可以幫你做到，只是你要不要做而已，好嗎？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在登記質詢委員已經發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及質詢完畢。二、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答詢部分，請運安會、交通部儘速以書面回覆。","本日議程處理完畢，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（12時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":6.207218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.98346875,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.22659375,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.47971875,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.12096875,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.17159375,"end":18.239093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.39096875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.49221875,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.824718750000002,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.85409375,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.04221875,"end":39.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.446593750000005,"end":47.736593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.314718750000004,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.64784375,"end":50.487218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.98096875,"end":58.705343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.48284375,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.16909375,"end":69.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.33721875,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.03284375,"end":71.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.27721875,"end":79.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":78.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.43221875,"end":78.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.44471875,"end":87.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.55721875,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.14346875000001,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.05471875,"end":99.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.90159375,"end":100.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.31909375000001,"end":101.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.14596875000001,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.27659375,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.09909375000001,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.76096875,"end":112.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.08096875000001,"end":113.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.58721875,"end":113.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.10596875,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.95221875000001,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.17096875000001,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.86659375000002,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.48034375,"end":149.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.64471875,"end":150.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.89784375000002,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.70346875,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.27659375000002,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.57596875000002,"end":159.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.86284375,"end":158.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.31409375,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.84471875,"end":167.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.13971875000001,"end":169.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.84409375,"end":171.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.48096875000002,"end":177.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.16346875000002,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.93909375,"end":195.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.54471875000002,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.37909375,"end":203.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.50534375,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.22159375,"end":214.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.35596875000002,"end":217.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.66784375,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.36784375000002,"end":221.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.34659375,"end":222.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.93284375000002,"end":225.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.29096875000002,"end":227.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.38346875000002,"end":229.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.25659375,"end":232.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.28159375,"end":235.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.67784375000002,"end":237.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.25534375,"end":239.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.63909375000003,"end":241.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.81596875000002,"end":244.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.73534375000003,"end":246.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.53659375,"end":248.616593750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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.257843750000001,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.78034375,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.82159375,"end":17.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.41221875,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.42471875,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.18346875,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.456593750000003,"end":32.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.32534375,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.76159375,"end":54.149093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.17846875,"end":61.641593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.14784375000001,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.31909375000001,"end":77.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.36909375,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.48096875,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.34159375,"end":92.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.72534375000001,"end":115.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.54034375,"end":116.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.38409375,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.86346875000001,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.41096875,"end":146.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.89409375,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.77096875,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.40034375000002,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.52659375000002,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.96909375,"end":183.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.16221875000002,"end":186.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.29284375,"end":189.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.43596875,"end":189.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.89159375,"end":196.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.28284375,"end":199.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.06721875000002,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.33596875,"end":228.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.24409375000002,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.52659375000002,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.41034375,"end":252.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.79721875,"end":265.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.98096875000005,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.81159375000004,"end":270.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.09846875,"end":270.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.09409375,"end":280.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.84784375000004,"end":285.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.79221875,"end":286.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.43346875000003,"end":289.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.63971875000004,"end":292.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.96409375,"end":303.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.84846875,"end":311.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.37034375,"end":358.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.21534375000005,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.93596875000003,"end":381.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.81096875000003,"end":403.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.61346875000004,"end":404.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.89596875,"end":418.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.26096875,"end":420.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.63596875,"end":421.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.65284375000005,"end":437.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.27034375000005,"end":473.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.23159375000006,"end":472.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.30721875,"end":474.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.04971875,"end":484.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.84159375,"end":493.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.65909375,"end":499.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.21034375000005,"end":499.96971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.44,"end":29.616,"text":"麻煩我們交通部次長跟我們的運安會的主委。好,來陳次長、林主委。委員好。好,次長好和主委好。下一頁。這個事實上是在2022年的時候當時的賴副總統出席運安會研討會三週年的研討會的時候。"},{"start":30.918,"end":48.193,"text":"對運安的一個期許強調未來運安會應該能夠在專業調查跟資訊公佈以外能夠進一步的話被動為主動並接軌國際化確保台灣的運輸安全主委你對這兩項期許你是否有把握做到"},{"start":50.873,"end":70.381,"text":"沒有錯,當時的副總統,他當時確實有這樣提,他的意思是說各主管機關都要有一個評鑑機制,確實是沒有錯。據我們所了解目前國內機關的評鑑機制是有的,譬如說衛福部他有對醫療機構有評鑑。"},{"start":73.402,"end":91.781,"text":"那民航局對航空公司的安全服務也有一些評鑑公路局也對遊覽車客運公司他有一些服務評鑑等等那相關機關譬如說空勤總隊的評鑑作為未來如果有需要因為他是屬於內政部那我們會協助他來辦因為他有主管機關下一頁"},{"start":94.504,"e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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":382.476,"end":402.845,"text":"下一頁最後我期待是不是想問的是次長跟主委我現在提出來的這三點也就是重新檢討我們的車輛審驗的安全規範導入國際認可的碰撞試驗還有呢第二個是是不是有具體的獎勵方案來鼓勵車廠能夠可不可以有更多的車種轉為跟"},{"start":405.026,"end":418.698,"text":"告做幼童專用車來導入更安全的車型那第三個是不是我們的交通主管機關更應該盡速的修法參加國外的做法讓賦予我們的幼童專用車的絕對入權我不知道次長這邊是不是還有主委這邊可不針對這個能夠做承諾"},{"start":421.67,"end":437.266,"text":"我剛剛報告過我們這個案子有分成車輛分組那車輛分組裡面對幼童專用車的車輛安全法規相關我們會進行檢視那至於他這個車輛安全檢測的機組是不是要導入什麼比較科技化的系統裡面這個是不是有交通部來的"},{"start":439.698,"end":464.211,"text":"首先很感佩委員對於幼童專用車或是校車上的一個長期的關注剛才特別提到的這些問題都是問題而且也就是剛才委員剛才特別提到要導入國際認可的或國際的法規裡頭其實就是因為車輛的本身是有國際化的所以剛才講到的現行的那個德力卡是箱型車所以它不做實車碰撞這是限制"},{"start":464.811,"end":482.311,"text":"委員提到的這個建議我比較具體的建議可以容許我們回去研究一下然後特別跟委員做一個來告訴委員說我們打算怎麼做我覺得站在兒童交通安全上是可以有一些作為那具體怎麼做再來跟委員討教"},{"start":483.232,"end":498.712,"text":"謝謝市長,因為我一直從你當初擔任科研,我們一直關心這個議題都走到現在,也麻煩市長這邊多多能夠為我們下一代多努力,不要讓...把這樣的娃娃車升級,是是,怎麼升級,那有他的方法,那我們來跟委員討教。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d51c0644935bce374079f99d17e212a4188d38369fa36eb79f9b2934fa4db78b885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:13:22 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12:27:43","影片長度":"00:14:21","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T12:13:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:27:43+08:00","duration":861,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":820,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時13分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好！"],["陳委員瑩：部長好！我們這一次討論的議題是有關於垃圾暫置場的問題，這可能是過去部長比較不熟悉的領域，這個議題過去本席曾經質詢過，但是我發現這個問題的本質其實是在於經濟而不是暫置，所以我們接下來有幾個問題要跟部長請教。請問臺灣目前的焚化爐，公有的跟BOT私有的各有多少座？"],["彭部長啓明：目前是24加5。"],["陳委員瑩：那在處理垃圾焚化時，事業廢棄物的費用是不是比較高？"],["彭部長啓明：對，事業廢棄物的比較高，1噸大概要1萬元。"],["陳委員瑩：那家用的呢？"],["彭部長啓明：家用的3,000元。"],["陳委員瑩：就是隨袋徵收等等的，1萬塊錢的是哪幾家？"],["彭部長啓明：1萬塊的是進到哪裡的？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：進我們焚化爐的話，清除業者跟業者收的大概就是1萬塊上下。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有一個range嗎？每個都一樣大概都1萬塊？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為我們焚化廠有一個進廠垃圾收費標準，一般事廢的話大概是六、七千塊左右，那清除業者……"],["陳委員瑩：因為有分公有跟民營兩種，當然民營的收費會比較高，所以我們目前看到的數據就像簡報上面顯示的大概在二千多元到7,500元左右，我也滿好奇想瞭解看看收1萬塊錢的是哪些。既然事業廢棄物的燃燒費用比較高，那一樣都是在燒垃圾，是不是會有先燒收費高的事業廢棄物而不是以家庭民生廢棄物為優先，導致有些家用廢棄物燒不完就只好先放置的情況？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上這個是不會發生，因為我們有一個比例正在進行當中，就是有簽合約的就有在這樣進行當中。"],["陳委員瑩：但並不是全面都是這個樣子嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以今天我才會特別提出這個問題，就是我們先拋出這樣的一個概念，這很正常嘛！就是有錢賺我就先做啊！"],["彭部長啓明：大家都希望賺錢嘛！"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！就以竹北這個BOO民有民營的焚化爐為例，新竹縣每天產生290噸的家用垃圾，這個焚化爐只願意收費燒250噸，私有焚化爐基於成本效益考量，當然會優先消化掉事業廢棄物，那也會義務性的保留一定的額度給地方的政府，問題是源頭的垃圾減量如果做不好，家庭的垃圾量就會有增無減，那燒不完的只好先暫置起來，暫置起來之後，我們就會看到衍生出很多垃圾山且愈積愈高的問題。我想部長應該認同我剛剛說的邏輯吧！"],["彭部長啓明：基本上現在是沒有不夠，只是在整改當中，他們其實都有跟我們簽合約，所以有一定要燒的量，不見得是因為錢的因素。"],["陳委員瑩：公有焚化爐萬一也比照辦理呢？這是我們比較擔心的。沒有優先處理地方所在地家用垃圾產生的量或者是不願意協助處理鄰近縣市的民生垃圾，是不是也會產生暫置場環境污染的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：我們都有簽合約予以規範，所以基本上他要以我們的家用垃圾為主。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你要確定都有落實才是。因為焚化爐的管理使用是地方政府的權責，你們有沒有每年補助維運的費用？還是只有補助興建的費用？"],["彭部長啓明：我們目前只有補助興建的費用，維運的部分是由地方負責的。"],["陳委員瑩：你們對於目前我們國家現有焚化爐的處理量能有全部都盤點過吧？"],["彭部長啓明：有，就是到116年的話，會到700萬噸。"],["陳委員瑩：這樣夠不夠處理所有產生的家庭跟事業廢棄物？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們過去的設備老舊，時間已經比較久了，……"],["陳委員瑩：現在是不足吧？"],["彭部長啓明：現在是不足，但未來如果到700萬噸的話，應該就夠了，而且還可以把過去累積的……"],["陳委員瑩：你剛剛是說預計到民國哪一年？"],["彭部長啓明：116年底會到700萬噸，現在大概是680萬噸左右。"],["陳委員瑩：那個的前提是如果都興建順利的話？"],["彭部長啓明：對，興建順利的話。然後每年大概會有餘裕多幾十萬噸，那就會把我們現在掩埋場的部分拿來去除。"],["陳委員瑩：家庭與事業廢棄物的收費標準目前是全國一致還是不一樣？"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣，因為是地方環保局在訂定這個標準，不是中央訂的。"],["陳委員瑩：環境部能夠影響這個收費的標準嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：應該是不行，因為那是屬於地方環保局的事務。"],["陳委員瑩：我是說你們有沒有方法可以影響這個收費標準，有沒有可能去減少兩者的差距，我講的是事業廢棄物跟家庭。"],["彭部長啓明：若在法規制定上有一些規定，可能就會讓這個經濟誘因跑出來。"],["陳委員瑩：如果你說沒有辦法，我就要對你很失望了。因為你是部長，怎麼會沒有辦法？所謂「上有政策下有對策」，方法是人想出來的，法規是人訂出來的，你要有棍子跟蘿蔔啊！我剛剛這邊這樣設計問你這個問題，你很聰明，都已經知道賺錢這個誘因了，所以我才問你有沒有辦法、有什麼樣的方法可以去減少這兩者收費的差距。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個讓我去想想看好不好？給我一點時間。"],["陳委員瑩：我一定會給你時間，這個要算清楚，方法也要想清楚，因為我對你很有信心，你那麼聰明。"],["彭部長啓明：不敢！不敢！謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：還有兩位能力這麼好的署長在旁邊幫忙。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝！"],["陳委員瑩：顏署長，我今天有誇獎你耶！雖然你沒有穿粉紅色，但是灰色跟粉紅色色系是搭得起來的。你覺得目前焚化爐處理的量能不足到底是什麼原因？"],["彭部長啓明：目前是因為整改，過去這幾年設備老舊了，現在進行整改後，未來這三、五年如果量能真的可以上來，這個問題應該可以全部解決。"],["陳委員瑩：有沒有分布不均還是不足的？"],["彭部長啓明：的確有幾個縣市還沒有焚化爐，那個要特別注意。"],["陳委員瑩：目前南投是沒有的，上次還在拜託臺東可不可以收他們的垃圾。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：所以未來我們會不會再興建？如果按照您剛剛提到的，應該是還要再興建新的焚化爐。"],["彭部長啓明：希望每個縣市都有可以自己處理的焚化爐，因為現在其實地方環保局要幫別人收，有時候遇到緊張的時候，像最近臺東跟高雄就有這樣的案例。"],["陳委員瑩：過去我曾經舉過德國的案例，以現在的技術燃燒出來的廢氣早已經遠低於排放標準了，其實焚化爐可以有多重的用途，例如說發電、溫泉，還有旅遊跟環境教育，但是為什麼每次在興建焚化爐的時候都會受到很大的阻力呢？這其實是因為大部分民眾的觀念都還停留在高污染這種刻板印象，也沒有見到你們對於這方面的溝通宣導或推動什麼樣的計畫，所以我想請問部長，你有沒有覺得我們未來應該針對這個宣導正確觀念的計畫好好的推廣一下？不知道你們是否已經有想到一些方式？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們有些焚化廠現在已經是環境教育的場所，這個應該再多一點。我也曾經有看到國外一些例如游泳池或是mall的旁邊就是焚化爐，而且是在都市裡面，我覺得很不可思議。在臺灣一定是嫌惡設施，但是在英國等等國家，他們就有這樣的作法。跟委員報告，我還沒有真的到焚化爐看過，等我一點點時間，我去過SRF廠，但是焚化爐我還沒有時間去看，等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出我的想法。"],["陳委員瑩：其實剛剛的重點是在民眾對於這方面的刻板印象要改觀，所以為了未來這個遠大的計畫，你一定要先好好地扭轉大家的刻板印象，我覺得這個是你未來要推動什麼計畫一切的一切最優先要做的事情，本席謹在此做這樣子的提醒。不過最後還是要回到問題的本質，當垃圾處理有差別費率時，這個就已經是一個經濟的問題而不是單純的工程技術或者是政治的問題，經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的，所以要請部長判斷這個經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇，是前者的焚化量能不足還是後者的差別費率造成的，你們給予補助若可以有影響力，也應該想盡辦法去縮小這個差別費率或直接去補助家庭垃圾的處理費用，我大概就提出這樣子的建議。"],["彭部長啓明：請委員給我一點點時間去思考這個如何進行。"],["陳委員瑩：30年前，每當要設置焚化爐、焚化廠跟掩埋場這些環保設施時，環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾的抗爭，所以你們要積極主導各種溝通協調，才能在全國完成二十多座大型垃圾焚化廠的興建，其實過程是很辛苦的，今天你們升格為環境部了，所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升，可是現在看起來該負擔的責任好像都跑到地方政府那邊去，反觀縣市的資源和人力，還是跟30年前一樣，沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升，結果就是我們現在垃圾百處，臺灣到處都是垃圾山，成為一個還滿有趣的「臺灣新百岳」，像南投、雲林這些縣市的危機可能多年後依然存在，這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的，可是大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是愈來愈嚴重，因此我建議你們應該多去瞭解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印地親自下鄉去面對問題，比如部長到現在都還沒有親自去看過焚化爐，所以你也要趕快安排一下，而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告、看數據、寫方案計畫的遙控，這樣子就會弱掉了。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員瑩：與其你們每天發新聞稿到處說去哪裡查緝到多少的非法棄置，好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了，這樣是不夠的啦！所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到環境部告訴民眾說我們已經把垃圾山清理處理完畢了，而且也要認真探討原因，因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了，可是你們的新聞稿中公布的違法案件數還是不斷地在攀升，我想這樣是有問題的，真正找出這個問題的因由才是你們中央部會應該有的格局。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實我們成為部之後，人力跟預算沒有增加太多，真的還很少啦！所以也請委員多支持。"],["陳委員瑩：署長多了好幾位啊！"],["彭部長啓明：但是整體人力沒有增加。"],["陳委員瑩：升為署長的多了好幾位，薪水也會變多啊！你說人力沒有變多這樣講會很奇怪，因為有加薪了嘛！升任署長就有加薪了。"],["彭部長啓明：但是他們的工作更繁重了。"],["陳委員瑩：那是應該的啊！好啦！給你加油啦！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。接下來請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id"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環境教育的場所這個應該再多一點那我也跟委員報告我曾經有靠到國外一些游泳池或是MOB旁邊就是焚化爐而且在都市裡面我覺得很不可思議在臺灣一定是嫌惡設施但是在英國等等他們就有這樣的做法所以我希望說跟委員報告我還沒有真的到過焚化爐看過等我一點點時間我去過SRF廠"},{"start":598.573,"end":613.077,"text":"但是彭樺如還沒有時間去看等我看完之後有機會再跟委員提出想法我覺得你去其實剛剛重點是那個民眾對於這個刻板印象的一個改觀所以這個部分我想說為了"},{"start":615.538,"end":615.558,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":630.769,"end":652.414,"text":"好就做這樣的提醒所以最後還是要回到說問題的本質當這個垃圾處理已經變成這個差別費率這個就是已經是一個經濟的問題啦那而不是說單純工程技術或者是政治的問題所以呢這個經濟的力量基本上它就是大於政治的所以要請部長要判斷經濟問題的本質它到底是生產還是選擇"},{"start":658.456,"end":659.697,"text":"我大概就提出這樣子的建議"},{"start":679.409,"end":683.453,"text":"給我一點點時間去思考如何進行因為30年前每當設置焚化廠跟掩埋廠的這些環保設施的時候環保署的官員總是站在第一線面對民眾就是在抗爭"},{"start":698.469,"end":713.908,"text":"您們要積極主導各種溝通協調才有全國20多座大型垃圾焚花廠的完成其實過程是很辛苦的今天您們升格為環境部所有的人員跟組織其實都已經提升該負擔的責任"},{"start":717.132,"end":729.893,"text":"現在看起來地方政府好像都跑到那邊去那反觀就是說縣市的資源和人力還是跟30年前一樣他沒有像你們升格之後有大大的提升啊所以結果就是我們現在垃圾擺出的垃圾"},{"start":732.116,"end":753.419,"text":"台灣到處都是那個垃圾山就是成為一個這個還蠻有趣的台灣新百月那那個南投雲林這些縣市的危機多年以後可能依然還是存在所以這些問題都不是一朝一夕就出現的那所以大家檢討多年後看到的情況卻是越來越嚴重"},{"start":754.78,"end":777.734,"text":"我是建議說你們應該多去了解過去的前輩是如何一步一腳印親自下鄉去面對問題就如同部長都到現在都還沒有去看過這個焚化爐所以你也趕快安排一下而不是整天坐在辦公室看報告看數據寫方案計畫然後這個遙控這樣子就會弱掉了好沒問題"},{"start":778.274,"end":801.709,"text":"好,那與其就是說每天你們發新聞稿呢到處說我去哪裡查緝到多少的這個非法棄置好像這樣子就沒有垃圾了,這樣是不夠的啦所以我希望未來我比較能夠聽到看到就是說我們環境部告訴民眾說我們出了垃圾山我已經清理處理完畢了"},{"start":803.469,"end":821.538,"text":"而且也要認真探討原因因為法規都已經罰得這麼重了那你們現在發布的新聞稿公佈的違法案件還是不斷的在攀升我想這樣是有問題的所以真正找出這個問題來才是你們中央應該有的格局"},{"start":825.814,"end":842.375,"text":"好謝謝委員其實我們成為部之後人力跟預算沒有增加太多啦真的還很少啦所以也請問委員多支持組長多了好幾位啊但是整個整體人力沒有增加身上署長多了好幾位那個薪水也會變多啊"},{"start":844.417,"end":844.537,"text":"謝謝陳委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"153753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d592ed57b05b7b96d29dbbe5275cafb4df8d38369fa36eb79f771bfa2fcba23d975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：關於原住民族語言發展法，106年在內政委員會審查這項法案的時候，我的版本特別在第一條的第一句話明定「原住民族語言為國家語言」，在所有版本裡面，這是我提案條文的第一句話，而且我堅持。在審查的時候，原民會前任主委──夷將．拔路兒主委建議依照行政院版通過，但事實上行政院版就沒有這句話，而我堅持原住民族語言為國家語言。當時文化部的代表也認為有困難，建議不要列入，但是我仍堅持，所以後來內政委員會通過了我的條文，立法院也三讀通過原住民族語言為國家語言的條文。很快地，客家委員會也修正了客家基本法，把客家語言也列為國家語言。文化部在制定國家語言發展法的時候，也在第三條明定臺灣各族群的語言是國家語言。既然確立了這樣的語言，臺灣除了中文之外，所有各族群語言也都是國家語言，就要平等地對待。","語言當然就是要傳承，而最需要加強傳承的就是原住民族的語言。我們來看現行條文，「原住民族語言為國家語言」，這是很重要的，而在這個過程當中，就教育部、原民會要加強的部分是族語老師嚴重不足，本席認為，原住民族教育法第二十九條規定各級政府對學前教育及十二年國民基本教育階段之學生應提供學習族語的機會，那就要去落實，但是到目前為止還沒有落實。在制定原住民族語言發展法的過程當中，我特別要求在條文裡明定，後來與教育部跟原民會經過很多溝通，教育部本來主張要有老師資格者才可以當族語專職老師，我仍堅持只要經過族語認證就符合原住民族教育法的規定，所以也通過了，經過族語認證就可以擔任專職族語老師的條文。但是根據111年8月22號的文，當時教育部的調查結果是族語老師仍然不足346人。我開過很多次協調會，也質詢過教育部、原民會，並告訴你們方法，請問一下，目前專職族語老師情況怎麼樣？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，在111年8月那時候的調查是為111學年而作。從那個時間點到現在已經有兩年，已經再增加700位，所以有超過當時跟委員報告的數字。其中在專任族語老師的部分，當時是219位，現在也超過了，達到229位。總體而言，師資雖然夠，很多學校老師還很在意分配啦！至於總量是沒有問題，直播共學也沒有問題，我們會持續在各地分配上再注意委員所提示的現象。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：針對這個議題，我從去年一直到今年不斷地質詢、不斷地開協調會，現在專職族語老師到底不足多少？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，如剛剛講的，因為這些課程是由專人上族語，不管是教職人員或專任族語老師都是教族語，因此是用族語的課程數計算要提供多少教學的量，可能用現職老師、用教職人員、用專職族語老師，以目前來講，現在是夠，但剛才委員也一直提醒我們，專任部分也是為了課……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：署長，我知道現在事實上還是不足啦！"],["彭署長富源：我們持續跟地方政府一起努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為有小朋友因為沒有老師，不得不去上閩南語的課，還是有！這個調查不是像你們這樣隨便調查的，而是確實好好調查出來的結果。"],["彭署長富源：是，我們會持續好好調查。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：可是現在並沒有啊！報告完成了啊！"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，您舉的例下面剛好有文號，是111年8月啦！而現在已經是113年了，我們繼續努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣啦！署長，就以剛才你講的時間為基準，在這個時間之後你們增加了多少專職族語老師？"],["彭署長富源：是，好的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣就知道了嘛！對不對？"],["彭署長富源：是，今天下班前給您。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：就是你們到底增加了多少專職族語老師？","對於原民會，我有最後一句話，這個要澈底解決，因為這也是給我們就業機會啊！這是一個很好的就業機會啊！"],["邱副處長文隆：是，也跟委員報告，委員經常提示我們的中高級拔尖學習課程這一塊，其實我們也放在學習中心的課程計畫裡，他們未來會多開這種班，鼓勵族人加強應試部分聽說讀寫的能力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你把這段時間，這兩年辦理的情形……"],["邱副處長文隆：好，我們再提供給委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","現在請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 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end":389.764,"text":"你把這段時間這兩年辦理的情形"},{"start":416.664,"end":425.699,"text":"好,我們再提供給委員好,謝謝好,謝謝鄭天財委員請回那我們現在請張雅玲委員"}]}},{"id":"153752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153752","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5fed9f41f2bcff187b42b94709b0a08048d38369fa36eb79f11ba3abc993e12c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:02:07 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12:14:02","影片長度":"00:11:55","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T12:02:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:14:02+08:00","duration":715,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時2分）謝謝主席，是不是可以麻煩有請運安會的主委，以及交通部的陳政次？"],["主席：運安會林主委，還有我們交通部陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好，延續上一次質詢的重點，也就是針對自駕車的發展，我說過讓人類的生活更美好，這樣子一個高科技的發展，我基本上是支持的。我上次質詢的重點是不要胡搞瞎搞，找一些莫名其妙的廠商，用虛偽不實的得獎紀錄來詐騙臺灣政府，莫名其妙！可惡至極！結果我們中央政府跟地方政府，全部都呆呆傻傻的，錢一直掏出去，然後給這種像詐騙集團的廠商一樣，因為它政治後台比較硬嗎？這是我上次質詢的重點。","我今天要繼續沿著另外一個層次，因為這個自駕車的實驗，在交通部的主導之下，在我國好幾個城市都有在進行。但我要問的是，你們說現在還在技術驗證的階段當中，然後在沙盒裡面實驗，這個我都聽得懂，那問題是什麼？問題是你在沙盒裡面實驗，不可以實驗出問題，什麼叫不可以實驗出問題？我跟次長報告一下，台61西濱快速道路，因為不用過路費，跟高速公路不一樣，所以有很多大貨車、大卡車，其實都是辛苦人，在送貨的時候都走台61。所以你看一下，4月13號死亡車禍；4月6號死亡車禍，5月4號死亡車禍，都是在今年喔！我只是很簡單搜尋過去的兩個月，在台61西濱快速道路出現的死亡車禍就這麼多了。","結果你們在搞自駕車計畫的時候，竟然選在台61搞，在整個計畫開始以前就很多人提醒你們，說台61車禍多，狀況複雜，大家都在質疑。結果你們還是過了，還是過了！你們在審查的整個過程當中，我要問的第一個問題是，公路總局是整個自駕車沙盒的計畫推動機關，然後你們自己，也是沙盒實驗的審查委員，自己的計畫自己審，這樣對嗎？請次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告一下，就我的瞭解，這個案子裡我們相關的招標裡頭，是有說明它要經過沙盒的實驗，而且經過審查，沙盒實驗的審查機關不是交通部，在這裡頭你可以看到是由經濟部在處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我們看一下，無人載具科技創新實驗，智慧台61公路自駕運行計畫，你們交通部公路總局的張委員舜清說的，公總在本案有雙重角色，一個是計畫推動機關，也是本案在沙盒實驗的審查委員，白紙黑字寫這樣。現在我的問題很簡單，你自己推動自己審查，可以這樣搞嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我再跟委員做說明，這個沙盒計畫的審查，本來就有邀請各機關提供委員，但是整體沙盒計畫的審查是在經濟部，所以我想這個或許是我們當時如果是審查交通部的計畫，說不定是相關委員是不是有應該要迴避的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：你講得很好，如果在審查你們自駕車無人載具的時候，你們交通部派出去的，特別是公路總局，該迴避就要迴避，怎麼會大喇喇的自己在審查會議，講這個計畫我推動的，然後這個計畫我還參與審查，我扮演雙重角色。這不是我說的欸！這你們委員自己講的，可以這樣嗎？難怪大家會質疑嘛！台61當初大家在質疑這麼危險，死亡車禍這麼多，你們在上面搞自駕車的沙盒，你們心臟會不會太大顆？","結果今年1月，真的！你們的自駕車，在台61擦撞自行車造成騎士受傷。我看到這件事情的時候，我覺得真的是佛祖有保佑，只有擦傷。但這個是一個明顯的事故，針對這個明顯的事故，對照到你們當初在台61推動的時候大家所提出來的質疑，公路總局有沒有重新檢討？還要執意這樣幹下去嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我先來說明一下，然後看局長要不要補充，原則上這台61的試辦計畫，委員剛才看到雖然是台61，但這是屬於平面路段。因為有高架以後，平面路段的交通量確實比較少，而且沿線大概都是一些漁村，所以當時才會選在這裡，而且是希望以公共運輸的方式來處理，但是這件事情……"],["黃委員國昌：所以事故不是發生了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，這個事故發生了以後，就我了解，目前這個計畫是在暫停的階段。"],["黃委員國昌：好！你說到重點了，現在計畫是在暫停的階段嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，就我的瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：暫停了以後，當然就要評估安不安全，可不可以繼續搞下去嘛！但我現在得到的資訊是什麼？我現在得到的資訊是，拿到這1億元標案的廠商，這個案子是1億對不對？對吧？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個可能要查一下，我……"],["黃委員國昌：我全部都查過啦！前兩年5,000萬，後三年5,000萬，加起來1億啦！沙盒如果不繼續，錢拿不到，所以他一定要讓沙盒繼續，後面的錢才拿得到嘛！那個廠商已經非常大喇喇的在外面講了，這個審查會議我們走過場啦！一定會過，因為不過我後面的錢拿不到。","我聽到這樣的聲稱，我非常的震驚！大家看一下，你們在跨部會台61自駕案實驗續行評估會議當中，審查委員怎麼講的，請次長仔細看，我也拜託運安會的主委，你也一起看一下，因為真的出了事，接下來就是運安會的事了。安全事故報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查，且安全事故報告應該上網公開。美國加州DMV所主責的自駕車上路測試也同樣要求安全事故報告要上網公開，所以這個事故的安全事故調查報告應該要重來！","我先問一下次長，現在這個事故的安全事故調查報告誰在做？"],["陳次長彥伯：我不曉得，應該是公路局在做，還是……"],["黃委員國昌：公路局自己的計畫，自己推動；然後出了事，自己做安全事故調查報告，這樣對嗎？請問運安會的主委，贊不贊成？"],["林主任委員信得：據我瞭解……"],["黃委員國昌：我們一件事一件事來，贊不贊成第17點，委員所發表的意見，安全事故調查報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查，主委贊成嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：如果經濟部、交通部邀請公正專業第三方進行調查的話，我們可以協助，但是重大運輸事故的調查若屬於實驗性質的事故是不在範圍內的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！我知道你不希望運安會現在就扛這個鍋，但即使不是你運安會的鍋，你也要搞一個公正專業的第三方嘛！那公正專業的第三方，主委要不要承擔，我都尊重啊！你說不在你法定職權的範圍嘛！但我要請教主委的事情是，人家提出來這個意見很中肯啊！主委認不認同？"],["林主任委員信得：他提出來的意見，是他不了解運輸事故調查法裡面的規定嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛！他只有說公正專業的第三方，人家就沒有講運安會，你不要緊張嘛！"],["林主任委員信得：對，但如果他有公正專業第三方進行調查，運安會的相關調查技術可以支援嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：好！非常好，運安會要支援嘛！次長，贊不贊成這個事故調查報告，應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我們支持。"],["黃委員國昌：你們支持，現在有這樣做嗎？現在有這樣做嗎？這個是我的問題啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：因為這裡的結論很像是希望他先提出一個安全事故調查報告……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！因為現在的調查報告荒謬的是什麼？申請拿到沙盒的人，自己在提報告，自己出事故，自己提報告，那等於是什麼？出了事故的人，自己檢討自己、自己評估自己，這是在檢討什麼？是在評估什麼？次長你剛答應了嘛！你贊成要由公正專業第三方進行調查。接下來，台61自駕車的這個計畫要不要續行下去，我們就先請公正專業的第三方來進行事故調查，次長可不可以承諾？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想這裡頭因為有一定機制在做有關沙盒實驗的評估，裡面特別提到評估的結論是，希望調查的報告應該是到一個委員會裡去討論。所以我想這個委員會裡的相關的委員，自然都會有第三方公正的人來成立。"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以，這個委員會的委員，包括這個委員會做的評估，不是申請人自己提出來的報告而已喔！申請人自己提報告，自己調查自己，那個是笑話！"],["陳次長彥伯：不會。"],["黃委員國昌：你們成立了這個小組有哪些委員？他們評估的內容是不是可以讓社會大眾知道？也提供給所有交通委員會的委員。這很重要，我已經說了喔！出了事是佛祖有保佑，所以只是擦傷。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，這個我們來聯繫一下，我的了解，這個委員會或審查會是經濟部在召開的啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係啦！你們跨部會去跟經濟部講好嘛！人命安全……"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們再建議他相關委員的審議裡頭……"],["黃委員國昌：發展自駕車道實驗，我們都贊成啦！你挑台61線之前就有人警告過了，現在真的出事啊！非同小可，要嚴肅面對啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會嚴肅面對，至於經濟部那個委員會，希望一些比較公正專業的人士加入，這個我們來建議它。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們打算怎麼處理？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們來建議它。"],["黃委員國昌：你們跟經濟部聯合起來，一週之內交書面報告可以嗎？最起碼讓大家知道你要怎麼處理嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：可以，我們來……"],["黃委員國昌：可以？一個禮拜之內喔？"],["陳次長彥伯：一個禮拜會不會……我們怎麼處理會提供讓委員知道啦！好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：不要，書面提供。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，書面提供包括怎麼處理。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內可以嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們要跟經濟部協商啦！"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜？"],["陳次長彥伯：三個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：三個禮拜，好，可以。"],["陳次長彥伯：三個禮拜，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","現在請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","現在請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","林月琴","黃珊珊"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部就「台二線70K 崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.05034375,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.805343750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.94034375,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.28471875,"end":24.094718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.887843750000002,"end":31.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.35096875,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.840343750000002,"end":35.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.603468750000005,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.90659375,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.65284375,"end":45.829718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.53846875,"end":53.929718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.385343750000004,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.414093750000006,"end":60.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.962218750000005,"end":61.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.43471875,"end":67.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.80096875000001,"end":69.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.07909375,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.16284375000001,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.50846875,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.61346875000001,"end":80.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.45284375,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.71409375,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.82784375,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.24096875000001,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.31221875,"end":91.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.72971875,"end":94.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.34096875,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.91409375,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.12471875,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.93409375,"end":109.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.85346875,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.22034375000001,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.49409375,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.67471875000001,"end":120.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.54784375000001,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.25221875000001,"end":124.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.26034375,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.65659375000001,"end":132.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.03096875,"end":137.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.20346875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.16471875000002,"end":143.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.88596875000002,"end":145.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.84784375,"end":150.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.87221875,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.87159375000002,"end":159.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.68534375000002,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.21659375000002,"end":163.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.57909375,"end":165.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.16096875000002,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.37534375,"end":173.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.75909375,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.53909375,"end":178.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.14221875,"end":181.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.94346875000002,"end":183.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.03596875000002,"end":184.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.75721875000002,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.76534375,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.15596875,"end":199.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.72534375,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.20096875000002,"end":210.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.95159375,"end":216.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.09409375,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.00909375,"end":221.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.05971875,"end":228.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.67846875,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.41659375,"end":236.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.36096875,"end":262.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.57221875,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.77471875000003,"end":263.88846875},{"sp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目前是在暫停的階段好,你說的你說到重點了齁現在計畫是在暫停的階段嘛暫停了以後大家就要評估安不安全嘛可不可以繼續搞下去嘛但我現在得到的資訊是什麼?我現在得到的資訊是啊拿到這一億元標案的廠商"},{"start":387.922,"end":415.792,"text":"一億元標案嘛這個案子是一億對不對對吧這個可能要要查一下我我全部都查過啦前兩年五千萬後三年五千萬加起來一億啦沙盒如果不繼續錢拿不到所以他一定要讓沙盒進去他後面的錢才拿得到嘛那廠商已經非常大剌剌的在外面講啊這個審查會議我們走過場啊一定會過"},{"start":417.199,"end":439.077,"text":"因為不夠我後面的錢拿不到我聽到這樣的聲稱啊我非常的震驚啊來看一下你們在跨部會台61自駕案10月續型評估會議當中審查委員怎麼講的來請次長仔細看我也拜託那個運安會的主委你也一起看一下因為真的出了事哦真的出了事接下來就是運安會的事了啦"},{"start":440.319,"end":467.24,"text":"安全事故報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查安全事故報告應該上網公開美國加州DMV所主責的自駕車上路測試也同樣要求安全事故報告要上網公開所以這個事故的安全事故調查報告應該要重來來我先問一下次長現在這個事故的安全事故調查報告誰在做"},{"start":470.772,"end":472.014,"text":"來請運輸安全調查委員會主委"},{"start":485.115,"end":512.027,"text":"站不贊成我們一件事一件事來站不贊成第17點委員所發表的意見安全事故調查報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查主委贊成嗎?如果經濟部、專業部他邀請公正專業第三方進行調查的話我們可以協助但是重大運輸事故的下場會屬於實現性質的事故是不在範圍內的好沒有關係啦我知道你不希望運安會現在就扛這個鍋嘛"},{"start":513.388,"end":537.275,"text":"那即使不是你運安會的鍋你也要搞一個公正專業的第三方嘛那公正專業的第三方主委要不要承擔我都尊重啊你說不在你法定職權的範圍嘛但我要請教主委的事情是人家提出來這個意見很中肯啊主委認不認同他提出來的意見他是他不了解運輸"},{"start":539.145,"end":562.466,"text":"不是啦,他只有說公正專業的第三方,人家就沒有講運安會,你不要緊張嘛。對對對,但是如果他有公正專業的第三方進行調查的時候,運安會的相關調查技術可以支援嗎?好,非常好。運安會要支援嘛。來,次長,在不贊成這個事故調查報告應該由公正專業的第三方進行調查?這個我們支持,支持。你們支持?現在有這樣做嗎?"},{"start":565.195,"end":586.451,"text":"現在有這樣做嗎?這就是我的問題了因為現在的調查報告荒謬是什麼?申請拿到沙盒的人自己在提報告自己寫出事故自己提報告那等於是什麼?出了事故的人自己檢討自己自己評估自己是在檢討什麼?"},{"start":587.512,"end":604.086,"text":"是在評估什麼?市長你剛剛答應了嘛說你贊成要由公正專業的第三方進行調查接下來台61自駕車的這個計畫要不要續行下去我們就先請公正專業的第三方來進行事故調查市長可不可以承諾"},{"start":604.907,"end":630.009,"text":"我想委員他這裡頭因為他有一定的一個機制在這裡頭做相關的有關這個沙盒實驗的一個評估那他這裡頭特別特別提到他評估的結論是希望用那個調查的報告到這個應該是一個委員會裡頭去討論所以我想這個委員會裡頭的相關的委員自然都會有一個第三方公證人的成立這個委員會的委員包括這個委員會做的評估"},{"start":631.03,"end":654.075,"text":"不是申請人自己提出來的報告而已喔申請人自己提報告自己調查自己那個是笑話你們成立了這個小組有哪些委員他們評估的內容是不是可以讓社會大眾知道也提供給所有交通委員會的委員這是很重要我已經說了喔出了事是佛祖有保佑所以只是擦傷"},{"start":655.458,"end":676.086,"text":"委員 這個我們來聯繫啊 我來瞭解這個的委員會或這個審查會是經濟部在召開的啦沒關係啊 你們跨部會去跟經濟部講好嘛人命安全 發展自駕車要實驗 我們都贊成啦挑台61線之前就有人警告過了 現在真的出事啊"},{"start":676.866,"end":696.945,"text":"分紅小可啊要嚴肅面對啊是我們會嚴肅面對那至於說經濟部那個委員會希望一些比較公正專業的人士來加入這個我們來建議他我們來建議他你們打算怎麼處理你們跟經濟部聯合起來一週之內交書面報告可以嗎你最起碼讓大家知道你要怎麼處理嘛可以可以我們來一個禮拜之內齁"},{"start":699.633,"end":715.351,"text":"呃...一個禮拜會不會...我...我們怎麼處理來提供讓委員知道啦好不好不要書面提供啊是啊書面提供吧怎麼處理一個禮拜之內可以嗎我們要跟經濟部協商啊兩個禮拜呃...三個禮拜三個禮拜好可以三個禮拜好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5eef69136518704cbb42b94709b0a08048d38369fa36eb79fa44382e63844f4285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:55:45 - 12:01:50","影片長度":"00:06:05","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:55:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:01:50+08:00","duration":365,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":831,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時56分）主席，各位委員。有請陳次長。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好，辛苦了。0403大地震之後，餘震非常非常多，一直到前幾天都還有餘震，這是很特殊的地震。所以蘇花公路一再的坍方，5月10日坍方，之前也有坍方過；然後6月又坍方，6月1日也坍方；另外在6月3日台9線蘇花公路162.9K崇德隧道北端又坍方，還好都沒有砸到車輛，這是很幸運的地方。針對這個部分，交通部公路總局到底有什麼樣因應的做法？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，目前確實4月3日地震之後的餘震，尤其在花蓮非常多，受災比較嚴重的是台9線蘇花跟台8線中橫。目前就落石的部分，我們第一個就是即坍即清，像6月3日崇德段的崩塌，到隔天早上6點清完就開放通行。其他台9蘇花公路沿線有一些邊坡，當然要開放通行的話，第一階段是上邊坡的浮石部分，我們一定先把它抓下來，通行安全上沒有問題。另外，因為邊坡還是要做整體的防治，所以台9線蘇花沿線邊坡受損的部分，我們要做到年底，到年底有一些邊坡的整治會告一個段落。","目前蘇花公路其實只剩下下清水橋這邊，它有一個原來的橋梁要做復建，所以大型車輛在5月30日也通車了，目前只有日間早上8點到下午5點施工的時候會有時段性的管制，夜間沒有管制，基本上民眾的通行沒有問題。當然有時候因為地震或者是降雨比較多，會有零星的落石，我們如果有掌握的話，都會即時封路，不要讓民眾在有落石的情況下還要開進這個區域。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：大清水那邊，在5月31日……"],["陳局長文瑞：已經通了大車了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：通了大車。通行大車之前，我也去了。這段時間有沒有坍方過？我是說在大清水那邊。"],["陳局長文瑞：沒有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為上面有很大的石頭。"],["陳局長文瑞：對、對、對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還留在那邊嘛。你們新的防護什麼時候會完成？"],["陳局長文瑞：都是在年底前，基本上……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那個防護措施。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，防護措施。年底前，包括邊坡的防護、防落石網，還有一些邊坡的整治，都會做相關的處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這是一個需要積極處理的部分，當然工程還是有它的極限，所以我們要最安全的，就是要趕快把蘇花安能夠開始施工，而現在就是因為環評初審，2月20號的時候還要補正，然後5月14號第二次的專案小組初審會議建議通過而已，還要再修正，你們送修了沒有？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，就是5月14日，這個環評專案小組已經初審建議通過，會議的結論是7月底以前要把補充的資料送進去，公路局這邊會加速，大概7月15號會送。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：儘早。"],["陳局長文瑞：會，因為有一些要補充的調查，或是有一些說明資料，我們原則上一定會儘快。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：最重要的是，除了你們要趕快送，從5月14號到現在也滿久了，所以第一個要趕快送。5月16號在這邊的時候，也有質詢次長說要趕快送，送了之後要告訴我，我去協調環境部。我在5月22號也質詢了環境部，收到了後要提早開環評大會，因為這個真的是拖太久了，剛才講的那些落石，包括坍方的部分，都是在蘇花安要做的地方。所以這個部分越早完成，就可以更有一個安全的來往的交通道路，好不好？加油！"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們來送環境部。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，那個趕快送。"],["陳次長彥伯：是、是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員，現在請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.745968750000003,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.95221875,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.00159375,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.671593750000003,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.64596875,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.42596875,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.06284375,"end":42.994718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.298468750000005,"end":44.665343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.188468750000006,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.62284375,"end":53.322218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.09846875,"end":55.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.68471875,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.87346875,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.49346875,"end":65.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.31596875000001,"end":67.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.84721875000001,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.48346875,"end":75.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.13721875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.83721875,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.28846875,"end":89.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.50221875000001,"end":91.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.65784375000001,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.78971875,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.17221875,"end":192.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":194.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.73471875,"end":196.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.74284375000002,"end":198.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.27409375000002,"end":199.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.29096875000002,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.62409375000001,"end":210.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.02909375000002,"end":201.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.13721875000002,"end":211.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.74471875,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.14534375000002,"end":213.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.38159375,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.48284375,"end":214.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.88346875000002,"end":215.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.23784375000002,"end":215.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.76096875000002,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.90846875000003,"end":219.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.30471875,"end":223.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.96221875,"end":225.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.02096875,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.03784375,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.48909375000002,"end":243.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.65284375000002,"end":234.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.85909375000003,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.31784375,"end":251.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.77221875,"end":252.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.34159375000002,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.74159375,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.93096875000003,"end":263.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.14159375,"end":265.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.06534375,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.36034375,"end":269.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.01409375000003,"end":276.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.30846875000003,"end":279.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.90284375000005,"end":281.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.52284375,"end":282.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.45096875,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.30534375,"end":305.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.38971875000004,"end":297.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.58659375,"end":310.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.73346875000004,"end":323.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.91284375000004,"end":335.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.97846875000005,"end":346.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.93034375,"end":359.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.43034375,"end":365.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.69596875,"end":361.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.09659375,"end":365.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.91471875,"end":365.9653437500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11:55:34","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:46:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:55:34+08:00","duration":561,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時46分）謝謝主席。我想先請交通部的陳次長、鐵道局副局長，還有高鐵的總經理。"],["主席：請陳次長、鐵道局呂副局長，還有高鐵的馮總經理。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長好。我想先請教鐵道局，因為之前高鐵發生列車長規避了酒測還上車執行，我想請問一下，到目前為止有沒有任何的懲處？現在是總經理，是嗎？"],["鄭總經理光遠：是。跟委員報告，目前是有懲處了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，怎麼樣懲處？"],["鄭總經理光遠：關於違規的人，就是列車長跟督導都有做一些懲處。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是你們內部懲處。"],["鄭總經理光遠：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問鐵道局有做懲處嗎？"],["呂副局長新喜：我們會依鐵路法做裁罰。"],["王委員鴻薇：還沒有做裁罰？"],["呂副局長新喜：對。現在我們正在……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，裁罰要怎麼樣裁罰法？"],["呂副局長新喜：就是按照鐵路法規定，他沒有依規定作酒測，會裁罰。"],["王委員鴻薇：到目前為止沒有做裁罰。","我要講的是，大家可以看到，去年年底的時候，台鐵也一樣發生了一些相關的缺失，其中台鐵沒有落實酒測的部分，裁罰60萬元，這是鐵道局做的裁罰。但是高鐵的部分，到目前為止，鐵道局還沒有做裁罰。所以我要講的是，台鐵、高鐵的管理一樣重要，如果是同樣的狀況，不應該有兩套標準，對不對？"],["呂副局長新喜：是，適用標準一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，請鄭總經理再多做說明一下，你們裡面的懲處是到什麼樣的層級？還是只有這個列車長，跟沒有幫他做酒測的人。"],["鄭總經理光遠：我們除了當事人有所懲處以外，督導的主管也做了懲處。"],["王委員鴻薇：督導的主管也做懲處？"],["鄭總經理光遠：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：時間暫停一下，我再請運安會的主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：同樣，次長也一起聽。之前包含我和游顥委員，我們都提到高鐵最近其實出現了一些重大的工安事件，最主要的就是應該依照規定作業，按照SOP必須要斷電沒有斷電，造成了比如行駛中的車輛跑到隧道裡突然因為停電而停駛；又或者因為沒有斷電，而造成施工中的人員受傷，還好沒有人命危險。這些是連續發生，從4月9日到5月11日，短短的一個多月之內連續發生兩件。我想請問，勞動部和地方的勞動局會介入調查，當然高鐵也應該做自己的行政調查，我想請問，這些工安事件同時會影響運輸安全的部分，運安會查不查、罰不罰？"],["林主任委員信得：這個案子，他們是有通報啦，但是沒有達到立案的標準。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們運安會沒有立案，為什麼？"],["林主任委員信得：因為根據重大運輸事故之範圍……"],["王委員鴻薇：不重要？"],["林主任委員信得：不是不重要，因為它不在調查範圍裡面。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼不在調查範圍裡面？"],["林主任委員信得：重大運輸事故調查範圍裡面有幾個規定。"],["王委員鴻薇：一定要出事了才要調查，是嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：它有一定的criteria，一定的標準。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要特別提到，就是不要等到出事。其實我們一直在盯台灣高鐵相關的這些事件，我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆，而不要等到發生事故，然後大家才在做事後的追究、處罰。所以現在連續發生，就是應該要未雨綢繆。","另外，我請教交通部次長，交通部是台灣高鐵的第一大股東嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那你知不知道高鐵最近改了公司章程，對於董事長退職可以給予退職金。所以，如果按照現在江耀宗董事長他做8年，算起來他起碼可以拿到560萬元的退職金。在新舊政府即將交接之際，修改公司章程，請問交通部有掌握嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，台高公司相關董事會的處理，交通部是有所了解的，但是原則上我們尊重它公司治理的相關程序。而且這件事情其實是沒有針對性的，是屬於公司組織章程的調整。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有啊，這個做完，當然受惠的第一任董事長就是江耀宗啊！我問你，交通部事前知情嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們有了解董事會裡要討論這樣的議案。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們事先知情、事後同意？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們尊重他們公司治理的結果。"],["王委員鴻薇：很尊重？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：很尊重，那其他公司是不是也可以同樣如法泡製？大家都改一下公司章程，因為新政府上來，這些相關的公營事業的董事長甚至總經理，可能都會有換人的狀況，趕快未雨綢繆。還是台灣高鐵比較聰明，趕快來為自己的董事長量身訂做，讓他可以領560萬元的退職金。通通可以嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告，每一家公司的營運情形也都不一樣，所以我剛才會說會做這樣的處理跟調整，是要經過公司董事會，而且是公司治理，在大家共同……"],["王委員鴻薇：你左一句公司治理，右一句公司治理，你們就是最大股東啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：最大股東是要去監督、了解，但是在整個營運上，我覺得還是要尊重公司治理的原則。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得這件事情，當然有關董事長、總經理，尤其董事長的退職金，不是不可以討論，但是在新舊政府交接的時候，去弄一個這樣的組織章程，難免瓜田李下，難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款！如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話，其他的相關公司，可能經濟部下面的公司大家都趕快做啊！因為也不曉得哪一天我就會被換掉，所以就趕快來通過這些自肥條款。","此例一開，大家可能都這樣做，我覺得這是沒有體制的，交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做，其實是並不合理的事情。而且你不能用左一句公司治理、右一句公司治理，今天交通部你們都同意，按照這樣講，你事先就同意，那麼交通部所有相關的事業單位大家都可以來做，我覺得這才合理啊！怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：還是要跟委員報告，每一家公司的營運情形跟狀況是不一樣的，所以我剛才會一再的強調，其實每一家公司都有獨立的公司人格，公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的，而且是不同看待的。"],["王委員鴻薇：反正你現在講半天，就是你同意它這樣子，所以我也建議大家全部都如法泡製，大家趕快來做一做。他不是按照什麼的規定，就是你只要做一年，就可以領兩個月，做半年也可以領一個月，用這種方式，真的是自肥條款，好不好？其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想委員的意見可以留供台高公司參考，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","現在請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.73909375,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10.054718750000003,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12.653468750000002,"end":14.914718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.68721875,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15.066593750000003,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.58534375,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18.84659375,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24.33096875,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.714718750000003,"end":25.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.204093750000002,"end":26.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.97596875,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.27971875,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.22034375,"end":32.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.84846875,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.58659375,"end":36.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.59909375,"end":40.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.80096875,"end":42.252218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.92721875,"end":46.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.62284375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.057218750000004,"end":50.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.267218750000005,"end":55.127843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.212218750000005,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.752218750000004,"end":56.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.237218750000004,"end":57.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.688468750000006,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.64596875,"end":61.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.30409375000001,"end":62.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.109718750000006,"end":70.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.80471875,"end":72.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.61034375,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.31909375000001,"end":75.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.49159375,"end":78.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.90471875,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.24221875,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.98034375,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.39784375,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.27534375,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.72596875,"end":88.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.84409375,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.87784375000001,"end":93.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.53096875,"end":94.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.88096875000001,"end":98.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.51784375000001,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.37409375,"end":100.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.89284375000001,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.19221875000001,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.18784375000001,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.93659375000001,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.02909375,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.70784375000001,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.23909375000001,"end":127.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.12909375,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.02721875,"end":137.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.23721875,"end":140.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.46471875,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.12284375000002,"end":148.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.60659375,"end":152.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.39096875,"end":157.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.18346875,"end":166.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.87409375000001,"end":168.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.49409375000002,"end":168.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.69659375,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.60784375,"end":172.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.64534375000002,"end":173.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":173.55659375000002,"end":174.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":178.78784375,"end":179.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.15909375,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":179.19284375,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.51721875,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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是沒有達到立案的標準所以你們院會沒有立案為什麼?因為根據那個重大運輸事務不重要不是不重要因為他不在調查範圍裡面為什麼不在調查範圍裡面?重大運輸事務調查範圍裡面他有幾個規定一定要出事了出事了才要調查是嗎?"},{"start":282.493,"end":300.063,"text":"我要特別提到齁就是不要等到出事其實我們一直在盯那個台灣高鐵這些相關的這個事件其實我們會希望能夠未雨綢繆而不要等到發生事故的時候然後呢大家才在做事後的這個來追究處罰"},{"start":301.324,"end":316.054,"text":"所以現在連續發聲就是應該要去那個未雨綢繆另外我請教一下我們的交通部次長次長你知不知道因為我們交通部是臺灣高鐵的第一大股東對不對"},{"start":318.115,"end":340.81,"text":"那你知不知道這個高鐵最近改了他的這個公司章程然後對這個董事長退職可以給予這個退職金所以呢他算起來如果按照我們現在的董事長江耀宗董事長他做8年嘛那他起碼可以拿到560萬的退職金"},{"start":343.291,"end":352.806,"text":"在這個即將就是在新舊政府交接之際然後改這個公司章程請問一下交通部有掌握嗎"},{"start":354.702,"end":383.762,"text":"我想跟委員報告臺高公司的相關的一個董事會的處理交通部是有所了解的但是原則上我們尊重他公事治理的相關的一個程序而且他在他這一件事情其實是沒有針對性的他是屬於公司的組織上層的一個條件沒有啊你這個做完當然第一任就是董事長就是江耀宗啊所以我問你就是你們交通部事前知情嗎"},{"start":385.623,"end":393.289,"text":"我們有瞭解相關的這個董事會裡頭要討論這樣的一個議案所以你們事前知情事後同意"},{"start":394.128,"end":420.264,"text":"我們尊重他們那個公司自己的結果很尊重那其他的公司是不是也可以同樣如法炮製大家都改一下公司章程因為這個新政府上來很可能這些相關的公營事業可能這些董事長甚至總經理可能都會有換人的狀況趕快未雨綢繆還是台灣高鐵比較聰明趕快來為自己的董事長來量身定做做一個他可以領這個560萬退資金"},{"start":423.446,"end":440.482,"text":"我想跟委員報告每一家公司的這個營運的情形也都不一樣所以我剛才才會講到說會做這樣的一個處理跟調整是要經過公司董事會而且是公司治理的這樣的一個在大家共同你左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你們就是最大股東啊"},{"start":441.823,"end":468.208,"text":"最大股東是要去監督瞭解但是整個營運上我覺得還是要尊重公司自己我覺得這件事情這個當然就是有關於董事長總經理尤其董事長的退資金不是不可以討論但是你在這個時候新舊政府交接的時候去弄一個這樣的組織章程難免瓜田李下難免會被人家質疑說這是自肥條款"},{"start":469.588,"end":486.73,"text":"如果今天交通部可以放任這樣的話那其他的你們相關公司可能以經濟部下面公司大家都趕快做啊因為也不知道哪一天我就會被換掉啊趕快來通過這些自肥條款如果此例一開大家都這樣做"},{"start":487.651,"end":510.923,"text":"所以我覺得這是沒有體制的那我覺得交通部如果可以讓台灣高鐵這樣做其實是並不合理的事情而且你不能用左一句公司治理右一句公司治理你今天交通部你們都同意按照你這樣講你事先就同意那麼下面就是交通部所有的相關的事業單位大家都可以來做我覺得這才合理啊怎麼可以只有一家公司這樣做呢"},{"start":512.373,"end":530.027,"text":"我還是要跟委員報告每一家公司它的營運的情形跟狀況是不一樣的所以說我剛才才會一再的強調其實每一家公司都還有獨立的一個公司的人格所以它公司治理在每一家公司都是非常重要的而且是不同看待的是"},{"start":530.694,"end":559.263,"text":"反正你先講半天就是你同意他這樣子所以我也建議大家全部都如法炮製大家趕快來做一做這邊就是他不是按照什麼欸就是你只要做一年就可以領兩個月做半年也可以領一個月用這種方式嘛這個真的是自肥條款啦好不好這個其實我覺得對社會觀感並不好我想委員的意見可以留台高公司參考謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153749","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153749","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5d74f50556fab9af0b42b94709b0a08048d38369fa36eb79f9acd615108665c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:39:30 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11:45:55","影片長度":"00:06:25","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:39:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:45:55+08:00","duration":385,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":738,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時39分）謝謝主席，請陳次長和公路局陳局長。"],["主席：請交通部陳次長、陳局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：次長好、局長好。首先我們來看基隆潮境公園週一發生的山崩，李部長也要求公路局、鐵道局等單位，1個月內都要完成盤點全國C級邊坡，包含國道、鐵道、高鐵、臺鐵都需要全面來檢視。","我這邊要請教局長，在4月16日的時候，交通委員會要求公路局重新盤點危險路段還有不穩定的邊坡，並提出改善。局長也說不穩定的邊坡會增加，預計7月公布。經過這件事之後，7月會如期公布嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：因為邊坡的分級，我們是滾動式檢討，在這一個災害發生之後，我們在做復建工程，復建工程之後都會做相關的分級檢討。所以上次4月16日質詢的時候是說台8線、台9線的一些邊坡，我們也會做分級的提升。這一次，我想一樣，就是一個月內把C級邊坡做通盤的檢視之後，需要提升為B級的部分，我想我們也會來做。"],["邱委員若華：4月16日之前盤點的件數大約是有多少處？"],["陳局長文瑞：4月16日那時候，主要是因為4月3日地震之後，發生邊坡受影響的部分主要都是在台9線蘇花公路跟台8線的中橫公路，台9線和台8線有十幾處的邊坡正在做相關復建，所以在7月份的時候也會一併檢討。"],["邱委員若華：其實交通委員會這個會期已經有不少委員對於鐵路、公路還有國道邊坡的風險管理及監測，還有討論監測的範圍、邊坡落石預警都要求要加強管理，還有增設預警系統，難道要等到發生災害才能改善嗎？很遺憾，因為週一發生這起事件，才提出了精進和調整的管理計畫。我們的盤點方式有什麼精進跟改善，還是依照過去的方式？"],["陳局長文瑞：這一次其實從無人機空拍來看，基本上它的植被其實算是良好，比較沒有致災的徵兆。不過主要大概就是在土壤岩石的結構裡，有一些節理的組數增加，也就是說雨水滲入裂縫以後，產生比較多的……"],["邱委員若華：局長，我這邊先舉例，2020年12月台鐵猴硐段也發生大規模的走山，當初原本這一段是被列為C級，是相對穩定的區域，當時那個制度也遭到質疑。台鐵局費時3個月來做分級檢討制度，找出潛在的邊坡風險，並管理分類。在那件事之後，難道我們的鐵道還有國道公路邊坡管理都沒有重新再做檢討嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：上次其實對於C級邊坡，主要是對於坡頂開發水的因素部分，其實都已經做完全面的體檢，包括水的因素，在部裡面各局都有做相關的檢視，而且也做了改善跟邊坡等級的提升。"],["邱委員若華：剛剛有一些委員提到用科技的方式來做預測，我知道1968是公路局app，是嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是高公局的app。"],["邱委員若華：是高公局的app。同樣的，氣象署也有開發許多app，都有即時的推播。公路局跟高公局這邊有做配合嗎？即時的推播？"],["陳次長彥伯：即時的推播，我的了解，在氣象的部分，1968是有的。"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，我們現在跟氣象局有合作，目前國道有90處的氣象站，也加上氣象局測量雨量的部分，在1968可以直接看到即時的狀況。"],["邱委員若華：我知道，那是降雨量。我是說譬如像這次發生崩塌事故，能不能即時提醒用路人？"],["趙局長興華：假如有發生什麼事故，我們會有即時道路阻斷的訊息，1968都會顯示。"],["邱委員若華：OK，未來可以做結合嗎？"],["趙局長興華：現在直接由交控中心下指令，直接在1968上面就會顯示，假如道路中斷或怎樣的狀況，都會有。"],["邱委員若華：OK，因為……"],["陳次長彥伯：其實在道路沿線很多CMS上就會秀出，比如哪裡哪裡道路阻斷。"],["邱委員若華：我知道，就是電子看板。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，電子看板上都會有。"],["邱委員若華：因為時間的關係，我先請鐵道局。"],["主席：鐵道局楊局長請假，請副局長。"],["邱委員若華：我也同時請教次長。有關捷運三鶯線延伸至八德段，新北市政府代辦桃園三鶯線延伸至八德段暨周邊土地開發綜合規劃報告書，在5月10日報院之後，該案目前在國發會核定，次長知道嗎？"],["呂副局長新喜：跟委員報告，現在在國發會審議當中。"],["邱委員若華：還在審議當中。我這邊要特別提到，由於主線的電機系統擴充時限於今年6月19日將屆，副局長應該了解，如果未依限期擴充，機電廠商系統擴充的路段，本計畫因為沒有契約條款的限制，後續可能大幅增加數十億元的成本；如果另行公開招標，全面更新原本的系統，會增加到百億元。交通部可以積極協助，避免經費大幅增加嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：這部分我們來協助，看如何來加速處理。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。","現在請陳雪生召委、陳雪生召委、陳雪生召委不在場。","請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.207218750000001,"end":6.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.22409375,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.27471875,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.56159375,"end":8.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.40096875,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.82284375,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.957843750000002,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.36659375,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.63159375,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.660968750000002,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.60159375,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.06846875,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.199093750000003,"end":37.189718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.34159375,"end":44.260343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.73284375,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.25534375,"end":54.385343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.66784375,"end":56.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.51159375,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.05096875,"end":66.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.43409375,"end":80.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.40659375,"end":81.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.19534375,"end":88.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.69221875000001,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.79284375,"end":118.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":118.96596875,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.04096875,"end":140.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":140.66721875000002,"end":143.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":143.58659375000002,"end":147.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.20596875,"end":179.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":179.05784375000002,"end":189.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":189.48659375000003,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.34284375000001,"end":194.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":194.43096875,"end":197.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":197.33346875,"end":199.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":200.16846875000002,"end":204.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.43784375,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.30659375000002,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.13346875000002,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.30284375000002,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.68971875000003,"end":240.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":239.92596875,"end":241.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.90034375000002,"end":249.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.60784375000003,"end":251.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.75971875000002,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.29534375000003,"end":253.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.98284375000003,"end":256.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":254.86034375000003,"end":254.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.89409375000002,"end":256.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":256.00784375,"end":256.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.22721875,"end":256.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":256.37909375000004,"end":256.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.29034375000003,"end":257.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.69096875,"end":259.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.92284375,"end":261.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.88034375,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.49534375,"end":275.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":274.14846875,"end":280.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.38034375,"end":275.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.93221875,"end":288.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.30221875,"end":290.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.22159375,"end":298.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.30909375000005,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.32596875,"end":299.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.35971875,"end":299.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.37659375000004,"end":299.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.39346875,"end":308.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.89471875000004,"end":306.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":308.64096875,"end":311.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3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局長好首先我們同樣的先來看到基隆超級公園這週一發生的山崩那李部長也要求公路局然後還有鐵道局的單位一個月內都要完成盤點全國C級的邊坡那包含國道鐵道然後還有高鐵台鐵都需要全面來做檢視那我這邊要請教局長在4月16號的時候交通委員會要求公路局重新盤點危險路段還有布"},{"start":44.861,"end":54.024,"text":"還有不穩定的邊坡並提出改善那局長也說不穩定的邊坡會增加預計7月公布那經過這件事之後7月會如期公布嗎?"},{"start":56.594,"end":75.183,"text":"呃因為這個邊坡的分級的話我們是滾動式檢討那就是在這一個呃災害發生之後就是我們在做復建工程那復建工程之後的話都呃都會做相關的一個分級檢討啊所以呃上次呃4月16那時候質詢的時候是說這個像台八線台九線的一些邊坡的話我們也會都"},{"start":75.663,"end":91.954,"text":"做相關的一個分級的提升的部分那這一次的部分我想因為一樣就是這個一個月內的話我們把C級邊坡做一個通盤的檢視之後那需要提升為B級的部分我想我們也會來做那4月16號至今的盤點的件數大約是有多少處"},{"start":92.953,"end":117.401,"text":"4月16號那個時候其實是主要是因為是這個4月3號地震之後那發生的主要的邊坡的受影響的部分都是在這個台九蘇花公路跟台八的中環公路所以那邊的話就是說這個台九的話跟台八都有十幾處的一個邊坡我們正在做這個相關復建那所以在做這個整個7月份的時候也會一併做檢討"},{"start":119.148,"end":146.969,"text":"其實在交通委員會這個會期已經不少委員對於鐵路公路還有國道邊坡的風險管理還有監測還有討論監測的範圍邊坡落石預警都要求要加強管理了那還有偵測預警系統那難道等到災害才能改善嗎那很遺憾是因為這週一發生這起事件那才提出了經濟和調整的管理計畫那我們的盤點方式有什麼經濟跟改善還是依照過去的方式"},{"start":149.429,"end":179.078,"text":"因為這一次他其實就是說從這一個這個無人機空拍的話基本上就是說他的直批其實算是良好那比較沒有這個自災的徵兆不過他主要大概就是說在這個土壤岩石的結構裡面他有一些這一個節理的這一個這個主柱的他也增加了而且為他也就是說有點就是說也就是說他的這個雨水滲入去裂縫以後就是說他產生比較多的一個就是說大概"},{"start":179.218,"end":206.076,"text":"市長我這邊先舉例2020年12月台鐵喉痛斷也發生大規模的走山那當初原本這一段是被列為西級那是相對穩定的區域那當時那個制度也被遭到質疑那台鐵局也費時3個月來做分級檢討制度那找出潛在的邊坡風險並管理分類那就那件事之後難道我們的鐵道還有國道公路邊坡管理就沒有再重新再做檢討嗎"},{"start":208.419,"end":230.798,"text":"那個部分的話其實上次其實對於西級邊坡就是說主要是對於那個比如說坡頂的開發水的一個因素的部分其實已經都做完全面的一個體檢而且上次包括就是說比如說水的因素的部分的話其實在布裡面的各局都有做相關的一個檢視然後而且也做了這個改善跟這個這個邊坡等級的一個提升"},{"start":231.363,"end":251.318,"text":"是剛才有一些委員提到就是科技的方式來做預測那我知道1968是我們公路局的APP是嗎是高工局的APP那同樣的在氣象署他們也有開發許多的APP都有即時的推播那我們的公路局跟高工局這邊有做配合嗎即時的推播"},{"start":252.375,"end":257.748,"text":"及時的退波我了解邱局長對對對氣象的1968是有的"},{"start":262.086,"end":290.304,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在跟氣象局的部分有合作那目前氣象我們的國道有90處的氣象站那也加上那個整個氣象局那個雨量的一個部分在1968你可以直接看到那個當即時的狀況那我是說比如說發生就是像這次的公踏事故的話能不能即時的提醒用路人我們會在上面的話假如說有發生什麼事故我們會即時就是道路阻斷的部分訊息就那個1968都會顯示OK那未來可以做結合嗎"},{"start":292.233,"end":318.538,"text":"在直接有交通的東西他會下指令只會在1968上面就會有顯示就是說假如道路中斷或怎樣都會先在道路沿線很多的CMS上他會就秀出就是說比如說哪裏哪裏道路阻斷對電子看板上都會有是OK那因為這邊時間的關係我先請鐵道局鐵道局楊楊局長請假來副局長"},{"start":324.224,"end":324.824,"text":"市長知道嗎?現在在那個國發會在審議當中"},{"start":347.589,"end":364.7,"text":"還在審議當中那我這邊要特別提到由於主線的電機系統他的擴充時他的擴充時限於今年的6月19號將近那副局長應該了解如果未依限期那這個機電廠商系統擴充的路段本計劃因為沒有契約"},{"start":365.78,"end":384.017,"text":"條款的限制後續可能大幅增加數十億的成本那如果另行公開招標的話那全面更新原本的系統會增加到百億元那交通部可以積極協助避免我們經費大幅增加嗎是這部分我們來協助看如何來加速處理OK那這邊好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153748","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153748","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d571cd5402c6676551b42b94709b0a08048d38369fa36eb79f9fb31201d8e0b9555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:26:37 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.30409375,"end":8.265968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.586593750000002,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.20221875,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.82659375,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.09596875,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.403468750000002,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.74471875,"end":36.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.30784375,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.65346875,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.229093750000004,"end":55.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.275343750000005,"end":59.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.56596875,"end":62.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.97471875,"end":63.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.47659375,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.05846875,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.77971875,"end":69.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.29846875,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.51346875,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.53846875,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.14596875000001,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.48284375,"end":80.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.40221875,"end":82.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.75221875000001,"end":83.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.06846875000001,"end":85.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.50284375000001,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.69846875,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.64346875000001,"end":106.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.65534375,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.02971875,"end":116.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.83971875,"end":116.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.85659375,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.67034375,"end":121.10909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.15971875000001,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.67846875000001,"end":133.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.05221875,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.06034375000002,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.76909375,"end":140.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.83596875,"end":141.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":143.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.51909375,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.48909375,"end":150.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.72471875000002,"end":151.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.92284375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.09096875,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.79534375,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.61784375000002,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.42346875,"end":172.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.62409375000001,"end":175.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.81346875,"end":177.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.62346875,"end":186.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.12409375000001,"end":187.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.57971875,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.21159375000002,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.63659375,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.01534375,"end":209.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.53409375,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.72346875000002,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.27596875,"end":217.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.19096875000002,"end":219.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.09784375,"end":222.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.93284375000002,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.48846875,"end":232.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.65284375000002,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.56659375,"end":246.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.41846875000002,"end":248.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.49846875000003,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.69221875000002,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.97846875000002,"end":256.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.45909375,"end":259.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.73284375000003,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.84659375,"end":263.53409375},{"speaker":"SPE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誒說真的啦 這個兩位都是 這個從公路總局到公路局齁 這個也是我們前局長 現任的局長 你們對於這個案子應該都非常熟啊 尤其公路總局邊坡的一個分類啊 我看是從之前的時代一路到現在"},{"start":37.378,"end":53.956,"text":"我先請教一下那一天6月4日在基隆草津公園入口處這樣的一個崩塌或者走山的一個過程我看第二天我們李部長李孟雲部長就很積極我看到好像是陳局長陪他去的"},{"start":56.318,"end":79.712,"text":"他那天對媒體講的第一段話我是有點嚇到是誰給他這些資料的他這樣子說這次基隆發生崩塌的地點邊坡外觀表面正常直坯生長情況也良好再來他說了過去一無發生崩塌的現象陳局長這是你跟部長說的嗎"},{"start":81.431,"end":82.292,"text":"所以表面看起來職務很好嗎?"},{"start":108.646,"end":111.111,"text":"因為我重複看了一下現場民眾提供的圖片因為我業障多"},{"start":120.734,"end":139.861,"text":"哇 右邊這是1、2年9月 去年9月 這次還沒有大崩塌之前 也就是說我們部長在形容的右邊這個水泥 你們整個大面積整修完的這個結果 然後這面積多大啊 邊坡噴泥土的一個掛網 啊這麼大"},{"start":142.304,"end":168.593,"text":"然後部長當然他去的時候是已經崩下來了可是你這樣子跟當地的民眾說奇怪這麼多年來這個植物都生長得很好也看不出來任何的問題我覺得有點莫名其妙過去沒有崩塌這也莫名其妙當然不管是小規模落實民眾反應你們這邊早就圍四月就開始把它圍起來了嘛"},{"start":169.133,"end":193.471,"text":"而且如果沒有問題你們會做這麼大的面積的工程嗎所以陳局長還是次長這個不能給部長喔部長過去選水利的我們很多人是擔心他到底交通的一個專業夠不夠但後面我們覺得其實這是一個團隊團隊做得起來就OK但是你團隊若不說實話坦白講你說這莫名其妙嘛"},{"start":194.301,"end":198.764,"text":"所以這個照片出來第一個你們當時有去修補有去預防可是在部長的第一時間講這個我又覺得很奇怪你們自己想想看他到底哪裡拿到錯誤訊息第二個"},{"start":218.237,"end":246.206,"text":"你們分級有制度但是其實對一般邏輯上面大家不解的是什麼你們因為都是A、B、C、D按理說它的狀況應是順順的上去或順順的下來但是有時候天威難測大自然有時候它是D看起來很安全的一個就下來所以你從安全的直接跳到A級我覺得這是沒辦法預測的"},{"start":247.466,"end":271.714,"text":"可是如果你要從A級馬上再跳回來CD級我就覺得很奇怪你知道嗎你這樣子去年4月4月份這是4月份的相片看起來好像實在還不錯但是那時候4月份事實上你們還是第一期就最安全的完全無狀況但到了6月份"},{"start":273.345,"end":296.415,"text":"你們開始準備修補了你們就直接跳成A級我覺得這合理嘛因為出事了嘛原本安定的穩定的這個他現在變不安定了嘛我覺得這可以接受可是當你去修補之後修補這一塊之後你馬上也沒有把它列在B級直接跳到C級次長講一下是什麼道理"},{"start":298.275,"end":315.896,"text":"我跟委員報告一下首先這個也是稍微回應一下就是說部長到現場的時候剛才陳局長特別講到因為以往是有林信的像這種邊坡的滑動或落石那真的大面積的一個崩塌是沒有所以他大概是這樣"},{"start":316.357,"end":316.377,"text":"〔記者訪問〕"},{"start":347.017,"end":348.058,"text":"我告訴你這工程9月21日完工"},{"start":377.138,"end":394.532,"text":"112年9月21日報竣工你們什麼時候把他變成C級的十月份牛頭對不了馬尾這是莫名其妙你知道嗎你剛剛回答我也覺得啊那第二個你們所謂B級的災害的定義兩年內曾經發生災害"},{"start":399.142,"end":422.292,"text":"然後C級是五年內曾有災害他明明就符合說才剛修完我觀察個一年到兩年如果都沒有問題他就符合你B級的定義我這樣講的意思說希望你們未來像這樣的有危險的一個地方你明明做修補了A級他應該先降到B級按照你們的規定觀察兩年"},{"start":423.112,"end":445.651,"text":"他曾經有落實嘛吼你被修補了但觀察兩年附近沒有在狀況才要調而不是觀察不到一個月9月21號報竣工然後10月份就把他調到C級我覺得你們可不可以回去檢討一下這種調的方式可以嗎我想委員的意見我們則請公務局再去檢討一下公務局在你旁邊啊"},{"start":446.892,"end":469.822,"text":"沒問題,我們會去做處理。原則上這種降級,我的了解,它還是有經過一定的一個內部的一個評鑑或檢討以後才降級的啦。不是,不是這樣的一個機制。那就跟你市長講的就不一樣嘛。9月21號換工,觀察一段時間。好,你們會去檢討一下。我們會去檢討,我們會去檢討。我最後一個小問題再問一下我們的林信得那個主委。抱歉,抱歉,再過兩分鐘時間,謝謝。"},{"start":475.556,"end":499.151,"text":"這個國家運安研究中心說真的啦你心中是到底想不想做啊因為之前我們洪現在這個洪孟楷委員之前有問過你啦你的意思就是說其實很多跟大學合作啦研究中心合作啦也可以取代類似的功能現在到底是不是這樣啦因為我跟你講喔我們從上屆開始跟你之前的主委為這個事情討論辯論預算為什麼要怎麼編"},{"start":502.501,"end":529.179,"text":"講得真的是讓我們太感動了非要不行不然這國家這個運安可能會毀掉就現在怎麼輕輕鬆鬆的好像都沒有事情啊現在到底做不做那現在行政院當時跟你叫暫停的原因是說你原本的規劃沒有把電動車納入我也覺得一定要納入因為這是未來的趨勢那另外一個太空太空的一個檢驗我的天啊也要納入那現在納入情況如何可以做到嗎"},{"start":531.179,"end":548.801,"text":"我們是這樣子啦,我們那棟大樓裡面有消防署,他有三個層樓,那麼他在107年的時候他要搬遷,他談出來的空間,我們有做規劃,剛好可以容納我們要做醫術研究中心的一些設備,可以慢慢進來。"},{"start":549.682,"end":561.416,"text":"剛好,太空也可以農蠟進去吧?應該可以因為我們如果要到宜蘭去做太空運送訓練你們三層樓,你現在他6、7、8是不是三層樓總面積多少?樓底板面積多少?"},{"start":563.803,"end":564.964,"text":"五點七二一的是設備那這個設備"},{"start":589.48,"end":591.041,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":606.424,"end":621.738,"text":"當時的規劃的設備是建築式的。那麼原來在宜蘭的那個工程中心,當時那個space說要做那個運去的長海、展覽等等。那第一個原因是因為當地的"},{"start":622.959,"end":626.542,"text":"你現在殘骸要放在哪裡?你不要擴大問題喔。所以殘骸未來要搭電梯上去到678樓嗎?你在說什麼?"},{"start":645.516,"end":661.39,"text":"就是那個空地放殘骸民眾有意見那整棟大樓你說這些殘骸是你要用678樓取代這個功能好啦我就時間到了我要拜託你這個國家運安工程是不是要新建一個大樓還是你要用什麼樣的線路的樓層去"},{"start":663.291,"end":663.711,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":685.326,"end":700.933,"text":"進不去大樓的你們要選擇什麼場子比如說大的殘骸你要放哪裡你不可能坐電梯上去嘛還用吊車吊上去當地民眾會不會會被那個complain呢最後拜託你們要精確的規劃因為上次這個規劃你們用掉了多少萬現在不做了你們用掉了多少錢啊"},{"start":706.463,"end":722.881,"text":"大概一百來萬做規劃後來就就因為要等交你們109年的總預算的一個稅數報告是匡列800以執行836萬喔對不對然後有些是租金那實際實際用在規劃設計預先的到底是多少錢"},{"start":727.403,"end":754.554,"text":"大概...董委員告訴我大概四百萬啦一百萬變四百萬因為...因為這個就是...那你好啦這樣好不好你給交通委員一個報告啦我...我是不是會給你一個書面報告第二個齁你要很清楚的先期規劃第二個先期取得行政院的支持啦你不要現在告訴我們678三層樓消防署他的什麼空軍救總他離開了就是你們的萬一到最後落了半天又不是你們的整個規劃真的..."},{"start":756.115,"end":760.372,"text":"真的真的很離譜啦好不好我覺得你要行政院先同意謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153747","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5106f7a0955a8283c79f99d17e212a4188d38369fa36eb79f165cd330bf6083615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"12:07:21 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12:13:18","影片長度":"00:05:57","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T12:07:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:13:18+08:00","duration":357,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":791,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（12時7分）謝謝主席！本席邀請我們環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好！"],["林委員俊憲：部長好！首先要跟部長反映一件事情，就是像石棉瓦這種建材，它的粉塵有致癌的危險，現在清理量統計出來，發現全國最多的在臺南，全國的石棉瓦屋大概有23%在臺南市，統計起來有五萬四千九百多棟，總重量約占全國的20%，占全國總屋數大概23%，現在我們環境部有補助要大家把這個東西給拆掉，但是你補助的申請資格大概只分三類，就是個人住家、農業等設施、寺廟和教堂等等，但是這五萬四千多棟不是全部都在這3類裡面，其他沒有在你補助範圍內的石棉瓦屋你要叫人家自己拆，且通常都沒有給他補助，失去原來補助的意義。既然你要補助了，為什麼不全數補助呢？所以我們希望環境部是不是可以來協助，既然已經有補助的標準和對象，那為什麼還要再區分呢？例如很多農會的房舍，臺南三十幾個農會的房子都是日本時代早期留下來的，那時候根本不知道石棉瓦的可怕，既然你們要補助拆除，那是不是可以一體適用，全部都予以補助？這點提供給部長參考。"],["彭部長啓明：這個讓我們來研議一下，好不好？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為這個拆除的部分還是要看屋主，另外就是拆除的工作有些是屬於國土署的範疇，環境部這邊的主責是處理，把這個物品可以妥善處理好，所以我們是去爭取經費協助民眾做處理。"],["林委員俊憲：你們既然有這個辦法就是希望不要再有這種東西存在，對不對？可是你現在就只是補助一部分的範圍，那其他人就失去動機嘛！若是要他自己花錢，當然他就不肯或者是他也負擔不起，這就失去了你希望不要再有石棉瓦屋這種東西的意義了，是不是這樣？","另外我再提一個東西，就是農民栽種作物都會用那種農膜，部長你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["林委員俊憲：我用一個圖來顯示，像鳳梨田，其實不止是種鳳梨，農民在栽種很多作物時，都會將農地用這種農膜包起來。我舉個例子，像我們臺南很多種鳳梨的一定都要用這個，現在這種農膜很難處理，農民要自己處理，清潔隊也不收，因為它不是法定的回收物，所以業者的回收意願也很低，根本不要。那農民要怎麼辦？很多就用耕耘機把它絞碎留在田地裡面，這樣就會影響到有些植物的根，因為土裡面有這些塑膠的碎片。請問這種農膜我們要怎麼來處理？這種情形非常普遍，很多農地都會有這種狀況。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：所以我們是跟農糧署合作，他們會補助農民購置可以回收農膜的機器或是先把農膜暫置，然後利用設施將其去土再送去再利用機構。"],["林委員俊憲：因為現在農民都自己用很不環保的方式處理，有的是偷偷燒掉，有的就絞一絞留在農田裡面，有鑑於這種狀況，我們希望你們應該要輔導農民，幫助農民，你說現在有建立一個農膜的回收機制？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在有補助地方政府，跟他們一起合作來建立這個回收的機制，現在有在進行。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：農糧署對於回收農膜的機器有給予補助。"],["林委員俊憲：對收這種農膜的機器現在有開始補助嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有。"],["林委員俊憲：那我們廢棄物清理法是不是應該要公告這種東西要不要回收？以後就是地方政府回收、地方政府負責處理嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：對，因為這個是屬於產業廢棄物，所以如果說他把這個土都去掉，收了之後，他就會送到塑膠廠去做再利用。"],["林委員俊憲：你們不是有一個應回收廢棄物的公告嗎？我覺得應該要把農膜納進來，等於你要強制回收，你們是不是應該做這樣的一個考慮？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：主要是因為它的數量少啦！其實如果把土去掉之後也可以回收……"],["林委員俊憲：是因為以前沒有回收所以你覺得數量少啦！正常來說大家的農田都會用到，對不對？數量怎麼會少？"],["彭部長啓明：一年現在是7,000噸啦！委員說的可能是事實，有可能更多啦！"],["林委員俊憲：對，因為以前沒有回收，所以都亂丟、亂處理，要不然就是自己燒掉，現在如果公告強制回收的話，那數量一定會比你現在看到的還要更多。"],["彭部長啓明：但是我怕農民的負擔會因此加重啦！"],["林委員俊憲：你們去補助他，幫助他嘛！你們思考一下啦！好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們跟農糧署研議。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝部長！謝謝主席！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的發言。接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.152218750000001,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.700343750000002,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.345343750000001,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.66534375,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.68221875,"end":17.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.73284375,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.74971875,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.25596875,"end":22.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.26784375,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.42721875,"end":36.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.69596875,"end":38.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.53534375,"end":46.690343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.38221875,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.086593750000006,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.469718750000006,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.80534375,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.79659375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.32346875,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.79534375,"end":77.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.33096875000001,"end":79.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.95096875,"end":82.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.56659375000001,"end":88.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.78909375,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.99971875,"end":93.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.51846875000001,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.36159375000001,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.80721875,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.97534375000001,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.51034375,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.02909375,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.07971875000001,"end":120.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.71221875,"end":141.561593750000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摘種東西都用那種籠膜"},{"start":194.335,"end":221.332,"text":"然後呢現在這種籠膜很難處理啦因為農民要自己處理啦清潔隊也不收啦因為它不是法定的回收物啊那業者回收意願也很低啦根本不要啊那農民怎麼辦很多就把它繳稅啦耕耘機就把它繳稅留在田地裡面那就影響到第一個你有些植物的根等於在土裡面有這些塑膠的碎片"},{"start":222.952,"end":243.084,"text":"所以這種農磨我們要怎麼來處理?這個非常普遍,很多農地都有這種狀況農糧署合作他們會補助農民可以回收農磨的機器或說我要去把農磨佔置,把它去土的一些設施因為現在農民"},{"start":245.768,"end":273.346,"text":"對,現在農民都自己用很不環保的方式嘛。是。暗網偷燒的啦,他們說暗網亂用的,就在農田裡面。這種狀況的話,我們希望應該要輔導農民啦,來幫助農民。所以你說現在建立一個農模的回收機制嗎?我們現在要補助地方政府啦,跟他一起合作來建立這個回收的機制。現在我們有在進行。那個農業,那個農業老鼠他有補助那個收農模的機器。"},{"start":274.372,"end":274.412,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":286.122,"end":293.045,"text":"是不是因為有一個叫做公告因回收廢棄物我覺得應該要把籠膜給納進來就等於你要強制回收是不是應該做這樣的一個考慮"},{"start":314.517,"end":343.418,"text":"主要是說因為他的數量少啦那其實如果是把這個土去掉之後也可以是因為以前沒有回收你覺得數量少啦農田正常的大家也贏到對不對數量怎麼會少好不好一年現在是7000噸啦可能委員說的可能是40有可能更多啦對因為你覺得沒回收啊所以都沒錢沒用沒辦法自己收啊你現在如果公告強制回收的話那可能數量一定會比你現在看到的還要更多啦"},{"start":343.778,"end":344.019,"text":"謝謝林俊憲委員"}]}},{"id":"153746","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153746","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5eef69136518704cb9dbbe5275cafb4df8d38369fa36eb79ff7f6ec901b7cd90e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:55:45 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12:08:40","影片長度":"00:12:55","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:55:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:08:40+08:00","duration":775,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時55分）有請文化部李部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["吳委員春城：部長好。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：請教育部彭署長一起，可以嗎？"],["主席：有請彭署長。"],["吳委員春城：因為這個問題，我的題目就是文化部跟教育部是歧視高齡者的元兇嗎？這個罪名好像很大，但是我剛才有看到，我們今天談的臺語教育占文化部預算的5%，是嗎？但是我們有800萬的高齡者，占文化部文化預算當中的0.2%，部長如何來看待這兩件事情？臺語這件事情，5%大家都還嫌少，在輕重當中，你的想法是怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：好，我回答一下，如果光是從預算看，好像0.2%很少，事實上文化部所有的館所，文化部所呈現的表演，譬如說我們下鄉表演，也有非常多的阿公、阿嬤帶著孩子看，我們這樣加起來的預算絕對不只0.2%。也許在分類上是0.2%，事實上整個文化部做出去的活動，我們的場館讓壯世代參與的，絕對不只0.2%。"],["吳委員春城：應該也是啦！但是那個叫做兼顧，未來應該有很大的努力空間，是嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["吳委員春城：應該有努力的空間啦！另外，剛才提到文化是一個國家的靈魂，那這個靈魂不要太政治化啦！語言，我的臺語也非常好，我們家都講臺語，語言非常好，但是語言是生活，不是政治喔！剛才有太多人在討論，都把它政治化了。","另外一個，因為所有的文化只要跟政治太靠近，就是叫做劣等文化啦！歷代看起來，只要文化為政治服務，就像以前的反共八股、解放軍八股，那個時代所有的文化做出來，我們現在看起來都覺得可笑無比，希望我們這個時代所留下來的文化可以是經典之作，人類真善美光輝的文明，而不是都陷入在這裡，這也是提醒你啦！","接下來是我今天的主題，給你看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["吳委員春城：好，看到這裡，因為沒時間。看起來年輕人都有志一同，他們所形容的老人，有人認為40歲是老人，有的是50歲，普遍的共識是50歲啦！我們的成語也是50歲就算半百老翁嘛！算是老人，然後他們會有這些反應嘛！現在50歲的，在座有多少人是這個樣子？部長，你會這樣子嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實我都70歲了，我還可以跟學生打籃球。"],["吳委員春城：對啊！但是為什麼大家這麼有共識？這一些是從哪裡來的？他們的觀念是從哪裡來？"],["李部長遠：其實我剛剛看那個畫面，我覺得是不可思議啦！"],["吳委員春城：不可思議喔？"],["李部長遠：對，就是難以想象那個……"],["吳委員春城：怎麼會不可思議？這個是……"],["李部長遠：就是文化上面對老人的歧視，應該還是回到文化。"],["吳委員春城：還是文化。"],["李部長遠：我覺得臺灣沒那麼嚴重。"],["吳委員春城：臺灣是全世界最嚴重的。"],["李部長遠：怎麼說呢？不會啦！"],["吳委員春城：我等一下會給你看數據，好不好？部長也承認，這些年齡歧視來自文化，後面有一個文化的背景，那你怕老嗎？部長，你怕老嗎？"],["李部長遠：我沒有怕過，我覺得越老越好。"],["吳委員春城：越老越好，對，你應該把這樣的觀念告訴大家，大家都怕老耶！所有的企業都要去老化，抗老啊！對不對？去老、抗老，很怕跟老沾到邊，為什麼？因為你可以知道，你假如去Google，你把「老」、「銀髮」輸入裡面，那個大數據依附過來的都是什麼？失智、健忘、依賴、體弱多病，不只身體有毛病，心理都有毛病，反正「老」就是一切負面的代名詞。","事實上，很多醫學證明，包括諾貝爾的得獎者，平均有8成都在60歲以上，都在60歲以上的得獎人。現在很多醫學證明，甚至包括創意，高齡者的創意都比年輕人好，因為創意是一種神經節的連結，它的連結資料庫更多，還有很多的策略，但是我們一般所想像的不是這個樣子，所以我們看起來，老是很負面的，這應該是來自文化。","WHO有關年齡歧視當中，有提出三項策略，第一項策略叫政策與法律，第二項叫教育的干預措施，第三項是代間接觸的干預措施，請問教育部跟文化部如何去減少年齡歧視的作為？問一下教育部。"],["顏副司長寶月：其實教育部在減少年齡歧視的部分，我們會透過代間的學習……"],["吳委員春城：你可不可以大聲一點？聽不到你的聲音。"],["顏副司長寶月：是，我們有透過代間學習的機制，比如說我們在大專院校，在樂齡大學裡面有相關的代間學習的課程，透過大專院校的學生跟我們樂齡學者的部分去共同學習某一個課程，其實我們一直認為……"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝，我知道了。但是我給你看一下，其實反歧視要從小做起啦！每一個年齡層，包括我有3個孫子，念小學的這一個，有一天畫了一幅圖帶去，老師問他：你畫誰啊？他說：畫爺爺、拿個拐杖。我問：我有拿拐杖嗎？他說：沒有。我說：既然沒有，為什麼你這樣畫？他說：因為在書本上的爺爺都會拿拐杖。對！這就是因為在很多資料中、從小的課本，也包括現在的繪本，對於老的描述、以老為主角者，大概只占1.69%，也就是老人在很多兒童繪本當中都不重要。而且73.74%是負面的形象，包括很多老妖，妖怪一定是老的嘛！巫婆一定是老的嘛！所以才有老巫婆、老妖怪什麼的，反正老的都是這類代表，而且會強化，從小開始植入以後還會一直影響到一輩子。這也就是我們臺灣教科書對於高齡形象的塑造，高齡者所扮演的主要角色大概都是祖父母、父母，還有鄉巴佬啦！還有悠閒人士、無事可做者。"],["顏副院長慶祥：跟委員做個回應，針對教科書這方面，我們會做個盤整跟檢視，提供給出版商做參考與建議。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝。"],["顏副院長慶祥：我做這樣的回應。"],["吳委員春城：對、對、對，謝謝你有注意到這個。","我們現在用大數據來看，如果是銀髮、高齡老人的大數據，大概會呈現出這樣子。至於談論壯世代時，出來的就是「時尚」、「質感」、「活動」，比較符合我們現在的真實情形，現在電影也有很多是壯世代的影片。也包括前一陣子張學友的演唱會爆滿，而張學友代表的就是壯世代產業，很多壯世代願意花錢。還包括壯世代美學─高齡美學啦！這是文化部應該重視的問題。針對每一個部會都在歧視高齡這個問題，上次已經講過很多次了，但還是要再次提醒，這個源頭來自教育跟文化，教育跟文化的確如同剛才提到的，而且是從小開始。","另外這個不是老人問題，但也要特別對教育部提到現在年輕人的情況。未來30年，臺灣就是全世界最高齡的，明年畢業的大學生會一腳就踏進高齡社會。而這些年輕人30歲的時候，臺灣會有一半的人超過50歲；這些年輕人40歲的時候，臺灣會有一半的人超過60歲。整體年輕人未來整個世界就是一輩子活在高齡社會，而這已經被定型化了。教育部要了解，對於未來的年輕人，不管要做企業、做產業、做服務，都應該讓他們研究高齡的需求，高齡美學、高齡設計這方面應該成為顯學，教育體系應該注意到這件事情。","這裡也要拜託教育部跟文化部，從現在出版品的作為、文化內容投資的設計到教育部教科書針對高齡教育的部分，可否在兩個月之內提出從文化跟教育方面改善高齡歧視的相關書面報告？可否？因為這個是重中之重，要先反歧視。如果停留在這裡，現在什麼幸福工程大計畫等等，背後所需要的有一千萬人口，高齡者、壯世代有五百萬，還包括年輕人，這麼龐大的人數，這是他們90%的日常生活都會碰到的問題，可否提出報告？部長，可以嗎？文化部可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["吳委員春城：就是說明如何在文化部減少高齡歧視。"],["李部長遠：可以、沒問題，我們都在做了。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝，那要提出報告喔！","另外，教育部可以嗎？"],["彭署長富源：剛剛這兩項也沒問題。"],["吳委員春城：可以喔？好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員，部長、署長請回。","接下來先處理臨時提案。今天委員所提出的臨時提案有4案，請宣讀。","一、","案由：有鑒於國家語言發展法第四條指出，國家語言一律平等，國民使用國家語言不受歧視或限制。基於該法條主張，另，提供世界各國人士到臺灣學習中文、臺語之外，應將原住民族語定位等同推廣提升國際視野，成為外國人士學習及取得認證的重要語言。請於三個月內回覆立法院教育文化委員會。","提案人：林倩綺　　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　柯志恩　　洪孟楷　　高金素梅","二、","為推動原住民族教育及辦理原住民族實驗學校，應完善教學現場各項制度。校長遴選制度為地方自治權限應予以尊重，惟原住民族實驗學校之校長的調動卻會牽動一個部落推動原住民族教育的希望，特別在獲得主管機關的籌備經費下進行各項籌備時的任何調動，將影響課程的實施是否如期辦理。","爰此，為如期推展原住民族教育及辦理原住民族實驗學校，請教育部審慎評估該項困境，請於一個月內提出研議報告送至本委員會及原住民籍立法委員。","提案人：林倩綺　　高金素梅　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　柯志恩　　洪孟楷","三、","為解決長年族語師資不足之困境，應修正《高級中等以下學校原住民族語老師資格及聘用辦法》第二條規定：須取得原住民族語言能力認證測驗高級以上合格證書之門檻限制。","因高級以上認證之考試方式與部落及耆老脫節，故在原住民族委員會完善族語認證制度前請教育部先行修正，將高級以上合格證書改為中高級以上，有中高級以上之證書即可取得資格並參加甄選，但須在三年內取得高級以上證書，如未取得則取消專職師資。以比照《原住民族教育法》」第三十一條精神：原住民公費生資格須有中級以上之證書，畢業前則須取得中高級以上之證書。","請教育部於一個月內提出研議報告送至本委員會及原住民籍立法委員。","提案人：林倩綺　　柯志恩　　高金素梅　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　洪孟楷","四、","多數族人長年反映高級以上原住民族語言能力認證測驗之考試方式與部落、耆老脫節，導致多數耆老無法操作考試系統及理解命題思維，而遲遲未考取到高級以上合格證書，於是出現了最會說族語的耆老沒有國家認證、沒有教學資格的現象。","爰此，請原住民族委員會一個月內提出改善報告及精進措施送至本委員會及原住民籍立法委員。","提案人：林倩綺　　柯志恩　　高金素梅　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　洪孟楷"],["主席：有4個案子，我們從第1個案子來看。針對第1個案子，提案人有何補充說明？"],["林委員倩綺：這一案跟我早上所講的內容基本上是一致的，就是要作推動、開始啟動這個溝通平臺。"],["主席：是，可是第一個案子跟其他三個案子唯一不同的是沒有寫主責單位，你要請誰在三個月內給你回復？"],["林委員倩綺：這一案嗎？"],["主席：對，第1案。"],["林委員倩綺：教育部。"],["主席：所以是不是要加一下文字「教育部」？"],["林委員倩綺：「教育部」嗎？好。"],["主席：你要請教育部？好，若加文字要怎麼加？"],["彭署長富源：原則上是可以配合辦理。如果要加文字，可以在最後一行「請於」兩個字之間加字，也就是「請教育部於」。"],["主席：請教育部於三個月內？"],["彭署長富源：對，我們的國際司會一起處理。"],["主席：好，OK。這樣OK嗎？好，修正通過。","第2個案子，提案人有何要說明嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：如果教育部能辦理的話……"],["彭署長富源：我們來配合辦理。"],["主席：好，教育部也配合辦理。OK，照案通過。","第3個案子也是要求教育部？"],["林委員倩綺：對。"],["彭署長富源：對，我們也配合辦理，剛剛跟委員說明過了。"],["主席：好，那就照案通過。謝謝。","第4個案子，請原民會說明。"],["邱副處長文隆：我們配合委員的提案處理。"],["主席：好，所以就按照……"],["邱副處長文隆：但還是請委員修正成一個半月提出。"],["主席：一個半月？好，修正成一個半月？好，那就修正成一個半月，修正通過。謝謝。","接下來請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.55409375,"end":1.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.52846875,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.73909375,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.480968750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.927218750000002,"end":17.766593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.17159375,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.89221875,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.15784375,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.92534375,"end":32.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.20721875,"end":37.594718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.30346875,"end":42.252218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.72471875,"end":49.845968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.23409375,"end":50.774093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.398468750000006,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.790343750000005,"end":55.229093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.735343750000006,"end":59.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.81909375,"end":60.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.57409375,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.49221875,"end":77.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.47034375,"end":80.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.38971875,"end":95.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.43596875,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.99909375,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.73971875000001,"end":112.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.72221875000001,"end":114.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.03409375000001,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.43034375,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.20159375,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.10284375,"end":136.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.27534375000002,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.11471875,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.94846875000002,"end":188.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.39784375000002,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.49471875,"end":194.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.42659375000002,"end":199.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.16846875000002,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.21909375,"end":200.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.23596875,"end":200.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.53971875000002,"end":200.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.91096875000002,"end":200.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.96159375000002,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.09221875,"end":204.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.25221875000003,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.59784375,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.76221875000002,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.09534375,"end":210.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.41159375,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.55471875,"end":212.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.57159375,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.29721875,"end":213.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.31409375,"end":213.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.56721875000002,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.10284375,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.19971875000002,"end":221.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.83596875,"end":224.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.43284375000002,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.43096875,"end":250.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.62346875000003,"end":261.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.69471875,"end":262.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.26409375000003,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.97284375000004,"end":285.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.31534375,"end":292.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.26784375,"end":293.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.16221875,"end":303.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.93284375,"end":305.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.32909375,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.03784375000004,"end":307.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.10534375000003,"end":307.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.42596875000004,"end":314.0072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如果官司從預算看好像0.2很少那事實上文化部的所有的管所文化部所曾經的表演比如說我們下鄉表演也非常多的阿公阿嬤帶著孩子看我們這樣加起來的預算絕對不只0.2也許在"},{"start":96.172,"end":96.512,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":117.509,"end":121.091,"text":"另外一個就是說我們文化剛才提到文化是一個國家的靈魂那這個靈魂不要太政治化"},{"start":137.318,"end":140.08,"text":"另外的一個就是因為所有的文化只要跟政治太靠近"},{"start":159.073,"end":159.113,"text":"主題報告．"},{"start":190.424,"end":191.665,"text":"好,我先來看…Hey, how are you doing?"},{"start":191.665,"end":194.146,"text":"You can stand right there, that's your mark."},{"start":194.146,"end":196.407,"text":"How are you doing?"},{"start":196.407,"end":197.147,"text":"I'm great, how are you?"},{"start":197.147,"end":197.247,"text":"Great."},{"start":197.247,"end":200.308,"text":"Just tell us your first name and your age."},{"start":200.308,"end":202.149,"text":"My real age?"},{"start":202.149,"end":204.33,"text":"My name is Paolo, I'm 25 years old."},{"start":204.33,"end":206.071,"text":"My name is Daniela, and I'm 19.24.35."},{"start":206.071,"end":208.072,"text":"31.33.I'm 26 years old."},{"start":208.072,"end":213.194,"text":"What age do you consider to be old?"},{"start":213.194,"end":213.775,"text":"Late 40s."},{"start":213.775,"end":214.135,"text":"Maybe 50?"},{"start":216.152,"end":217.412,"text":"I feel like 30s and 20s."},{"start":217.412,"end":219.113,"text":"I'd say like 40s old."},{"start":219.113,"end":239.157,"text":"I'd probably say 50s.I'd like you to show me how an old person would cross the street.Show me how an old person would send a text message."},{"start":248.49,"end":250.71,"text":"How might an old person do a push-up?"},{"start":260.258,"end":284.255,"text":"看到這裡因為沒時間這個看起來年輕人都有志異同認為所形容的老人有人認為說40歲是老人有的大概就50歲普遍的共識是50歲啦我們的成語也是50歲就半白老翁嘛算老人然後他們會有這些反應嘛"},{"start":287.578,"end":305.015,"text":"現在50歲的在座的有多少人是這個樣子?部長你會這樣子嗎?其實我都70歲了我還可以跟學生打籃球對啊但是為什麼大家這麼有共識這些是從哪裡來的?他們的觀念是從哪裡來的?"},{"start":306.437,"end":307.858,"text":"臺灣是全世界最嚴重的,我等一下會給你看數據。"},{"start":333.038,"end":342.969,"text":"那部長也承認這些年齡歧視來自文化後面有一個文化的背景那這個你怕老嗎?部長你怕老嗎?"},{"start":347.045,"end":367.981,"text":"我沒有怕過,我覺得越老越好越老越好,對,你應該把這樣的觀念告訴大家大家都怕老欸,所有的企業都要去老化,抗老啊對不對,去老抗老啊,這個什麼很怕跟老真的有變,為什麼因為你可以知道你只要去google,你只要google你把老"},{"start":370.243,"end":391.254,"text":"這樣子引發輸入裡面那個大數據依附過來的都是什麼失智、健忘、依賴、體弱、多病然後這個不管身體有毛病心理都有毛病反正老就是一切負面的代名詞事實上很多醫學證明其實包括諾貝爾的得獎者平均"},{"start":395.919,"end":408.972,"text":"平均大概有八成都在60歲以上的得獎人包括現在很多醫學證明甚至包括在創意高齡者的創意都比年輕人好"},{"start":409.957,"end":410.097,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":426.195,"end":446.477,"text":"WHO有關年齡歧視當中有提出三項策略第一項策略叫政策與法律第二項叫教育的干預措施第三個就是待接觸的那請問教育部跟文化部有如何去減少年齡歧視的作為問一下教育部"},{"start":449.597,"end":474.896,"text":"跟委員報告,其實教育部在有關於減少年齡歧視的部分其實我們會透過有關於代監的一個學習你會大聲一點,聽不到你的聲音我們有透過那個代監學習的這樣子一個機制比如說我們在大專業院校在任寧大學裡面其實有相關的一個代監學習的課程我們是透過大專業院校的學生跟我們的任寧學者的部分去共同學習某一個課程其實我們一直認為說"},{"start":476.637,"end":502.336,"text":"我知道,但是我給你看一下其實這個反歧是要從小做歧每一個年齡層包括我有三個孫子我有三個孫子這個念小學的這個老師叫他他有一天帶了一個畫了一個我說你畫誰啊他說畫爺爺拿個拐杖我說我有拿拐杖嗎"},{"start":504.005,"end":530.436,"text":"他說沒有啊沒有為什麼你這樣話他說因為書本上爺爺都會拿拐杖那對這個就是我們很多其實從小的課本當中來這個因為很多資料包括我們現在的繪本當中對老的的描述了齁那這一個以老為主角的齁大概只佔只佔這個多少"},{"start":532.945,"end":560.731,"text":"1.69%的老人在這個很多的兒童繪本當中都不重要而且73.74%是負面的形象是老所以包括我們很多老妖怪一定是老的嘛巫婆一定是老的嘛所以有老巫婆然後什麼所以反正老的都代表不所以包括老妖怪什麼這個兒童會強化而且這個變成從小開始直入了以後到一直一輩子"},{"start":562.644,"end":580.549,"text":"這就是我們台灣的教科書對高齡者形象的塑造大概高齡者扮演的主要的角色都是祖父母、父母還有鄉里、鄉巴勞還有就是悠閒人士,無事可做的"},{"start":581.668,"end":593.187,"text":"請委員做個回應有關教科書這方面我們會來做個盤整跟檢視提供給出版商來做一個參考跟建議做這樣的回應 謝謝"},{"start":598.018,"end":611.313,"text":"有關我們現在用大數據,如果引發高齡老人的大數據,大概會呈現出這樣子。如果你談入壯世代,它出來的就是時尚質感活動,比較符合我們現在的真真實。"},{"start":614.994,"end":636.55,"text":"高齡這就是那個電影現在很多就是壯世代的影片包括前一陣子張學友這個爆滿張學友這個代表就是壯世代產業很多壯世代願意花錢包括壯世代的美學高齡美學啦這個應該是文化部應該去重視的問題"},{"start":639.882,"end":653.41,"text":"每一個部會都在歧視這上次已經有講過講過很多次了還是再次提醒這個源頭來自於教育跟文化所以教育文化的確剛才要提到了而且是從小開始"},{"start":655.184,"end":669.791,"text":"另外這個不是老人問題這個也提到特別對教育部現在年輕人未來30年就台灣就是全世界最高的這明年畢業的大學生一腳就踏進高齡社會"},{"start":670.931,"end":670.951,"text":"委員會議長"},{"start":704.616,"end":716.351,"text":"教育部跟文化部從現在出盤評的作為文化內容投資的設計還有教育部在教科書在高齡教育的部分"},{"start":717.56,"end":738.19,"text":"可否請兩個在兩個月之內提出高齡改善高齡歧視的文化跟教育方面的這些書面報告可否因為這個是重中之重因為先反歧視因為如果停留在這裡我們現在什麼幸福工程大計畫"},{"start":739.07,"end":739.11,"text":"吳春城"},{"start":753.735,"end":753.995,"text":"吳春城委員"}]}},{"id":"153745","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153745","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d527472c62d3a2e6e679f99d17e212a4188d38369fa36eb79fd6c7337b7bc4e0405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:00:56 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像我自己買有時候鞋子他告訴他我們鞋底磨破了我要去換那有些業者就說不換叫我買一個新的那我就從此不會去那一家買鞋子其實這個要需要我們彼此觀念的要能夠提倡起來"},{"start":99.162,"end":116.827,"text":"謝謝部長那我這邊有個建議我是建議說包含這個環境部的網站是不是能夠公開正面列表符合我們這個指引的業者或者是品牌名單我認為這對業者來說也是一個加分他們說他們完成了這件事情環境部有做這樣子的揭示"},{"start":117.347,"end":131.485,"text":"那這種正面的揭示對於業者自己本身的品牌形象或者是反映給消費者消費者也會有知道說我未來針對我所認同的我的價值觀特別是跟環境相關的話讓他知道是去哪裡消費這個部分可不可以請"},{"start":132.446,"end":158.3,"text":"部長或者是部內來協助一下好謝謝委員這個現在因為只有3家3家品牌3家百貨所以我們應該會來考慮來做這個事情而且要大力的表揚我們會成立一個大聯盟把這些業者能夠去Promote他們的產品這個Promote他們的這個樣態非常好希望是未來當然是一定不會只有3家當我們有這樣的機制出現之後當這樣子的消費指引會成為新的常態之後會有更多的消費者去"},{"start":159.361,"end":175.433,"text":"去查詢我們環境部相關的網站這個到底有沒有符合就像飯店一樣現在有許多的飯店新級的飯店他都會有特別標誌在他們的路口的明顯處他們有符合環境部的哪些指引是金職獎銀職獎還是銅職獎等等的"},{"start":178.396,"end":195.416,"text":"對於對這個議題有認可的人他就會請下去那邊消費所以就是雙贏的機制就會產生出來那我們希望未來紡織品當然更要這樣子那不曉得你們今年年初那你們有提供機關跟公民營單位服事紡織品的循環採購指引"},{"start":196.457,"end":220.602,"text":"那有符合的業者或者是品牌名單我認為各單位採購的時候也可以更有方向那也鼓勵業者去投入這樣子的產業鏈所以相關的加分的機制等等的公營單位的話我希望有跨部會的討論有一個平台來講那這樣子對這不要是只作為一個部門就環境部只講環境部經濟部講經濟部國防部講國防部外交部講外交部其實這個"},{"start":221.762,"end":241.321,"text":"各個不同的部門行政的各個不同的這個部會都是一體的那有這樣的價值觀要把它協調起來那當然是更有幫助那還有另外一個方式齁就是每一個紡織品都要好幾個測標籤那我們能不能夠請業者主動揭露是否符合這個指引"},{"start":244.889,"end":271.978,"text":"因為我們這個指引還有平台那個平台大概是7月來成立那我想這部分我們會在那個平台來提出來所以有認可我們這樣子的呼籲跟這樣子的倡議嗎?其實這個我有買過一些東西有些業者他都會自己來做那我們未來推動做法上也可能也會鼓勵有這樣的做法除了我們官方可以鼓勵之外鼓勵業者也可以有把這個logo或是相關的把它附上去"},{"start":272.958,"end":287.049,"text":"對,如果有經過我們官方認可的這個LOGO才可以放上去,這樣子是...有序時尚標示。好,非常好。那最後就是關於就業回收箱,那2013年的回收量的目標是10%,明年是15%,那應該沒有問題吧?"},{"start":290.111,"end":314.261,"text":"我看到一些快食商業者會在店鋪裡面他會提供就衣的回收箱但是如果沒有獎勵消費者比較難為了就衣回收特別開車到店鋪回收衣物是不是有可能串聯業者提供衣物的回收兌換現金或者是其他的超商折扣獎勵這樣子的做法"},{"start":315.442,"end":328.342,"text":"讓這個就醫的使用歷程能夠延長降低環境的負擔這樣的可能性有沒有啊部長這個我們會努力來嘗試看看跟這個業者來討論看看因為我們環境部過去有些措施有過這樣的經驗我們可以來努力一下"},{"start":329.059,"end":355.494,"text":"大家好謝謝部長我最後再看一下你們自己的這個資料嘛那紡織品的部分12年的目標是5%那13年的目標是10%14 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12:00:50","影片長度":"00:13:56","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:46:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T12:00:50+08:00","duration":836,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時47分）有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你看，我沒有來，就這麼少人在問你，這樣你就要擔心了。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝召委今天排這一個專案報告，大家來討論，最主要就是廢棄物的暫存量逐年攀升，為什麼會逐年攀升？然後說到廢棄物處理政策的短中長程的規劃，我想新部長要有新氣象，但是這個老問題也需要新部長用新的思維來面對。我先請部長看這個照片，這個叫白費心力，環保局坦承資源回收結果都是進焚化爐，網友嘆被糟蹋，最主要是民眾辛苦地在家分類，結果到頭來是做白工，回收的東西還是進到焚化爐。另外，2023年彰化縣的溪洲焚化場做落地檢查，若發現有一包垃圾含資源回收物達15件以上，或廚餘50%以上，立即全車退回，重新分類，並記點要求清潔隊至焚化場接受教育訓練，公所的清潔隊不得不落實垃圾破袋檢查，也因此去年的垃圾量減少到五千公噸以上，那就相當於一千台以上垃圾車的量。我想，從2018年一直到2023年，臺灣整個回收的制度還是充滿著問題，那麼這個問題我們就要面對。","部長再看這個表格，這是近六年臺灣一般家戶的垃圾量，平均還在四百多萬公噸左右，我們看這個表格中紅色的數字，基本上110年降到三百八十九萬多，其他平均都在四百多萬，甚至於到112年已經來到四百八十幾萬，然後你再看近六年資源垃圾的成長，從107年的四百八十幾萬，一直到現在，已經來到了六百二十幾萬，節節高升。臺灣人民很努力地在配合政策，然後大家也都有資源回收和垃圾分類的概念和經驗，大家都在落實，但是資收物為什麼會節節上升？然後一般垃圾的處理量也卻沒有降下來。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，有幾個因素。其實資源回收的增加，最主要就是網購盛行之後有很多大型的箱子等等進入到資源回收，真的成長非常非常多。另外一個就是我們剛剛有提到的算法，例如說我們現在把很多非例行性排出的垃圾也算進去，所以有幾年的確是在升高當中，我舉例來說，像燒金紙，燒金紙在這裡面有四點多%，我們以前都不會算在這裡面，現在算進去，因為我們推行集中燒金紙的政策來降低空污。甚至還有大型活動的垃圾也會進來，所以也讓整個垃圾量突然逐漸增高。當然目前最主要還是因為疫情造成國人生活型態改變，外食比例也變多。"],["劉委員建國：OK。外食比例偏多造成垃圾量增加，這個理由我可以接受，但是你講說燒金紙這四%算進去這裡面……"],["彭部長啓明：現在的算法，就是112年之後垃圾量跳高的原因，就是說，包含燒金紙、大型活動、工程美化、災害等等，全部都要算，我們算得也比以前精準。"],["劉委員建國：是112年才算進去？"],["彭部長啓明：112年算，之前的107年是把一般公司的員工產生的廢棄物也算進來，以前是沒有算得那麼好，我們現在是一個一個都當成是一般廢棄物，所以這個數據就會往上走。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你的意思是說，112年把燒金紙的四%算進去。"],["彭部長啓明：還有其他，最多的還是大型活動的廢棄物。以前大型活動的廢棄物就當成是事業廢棄物在處理，現在歸類於一般廢棄物。"],["劉委員建國：但如果這樣，對照前一年來講，也只不過增加多少？827扣掉799，差不多……"],["彭部長啓明：對，33萬噸左右。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得應該不是這樣的比例吧？"],["彭部長啓明：111年開始放進去，我剛剛說錯了，是111年。"],["劉委員建國：那這樣我就要看你們的細項，你這樣講，我會覺得有點奇怪，我覺得這樣子的統計數據，它的來源好像不是很精準，那這個源頭的處理情況就這麼不精準，難怪相關的數量會節節攀升，而且會居高不下。"],["彭部長啓明：就是以前的算法的確很籠統就是從源頭分類，現在是項目都有了。"],["劉委員建國：那我就麻煩新部長到任後把你們的計算公式重新定義清楚，讓我們作參考嘛。好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒有問題。"],["劉委員建國：那我們到時候就可以來做相關比較。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：但是另外有一點就是地方環保局會不會只挑高價資收物再利用處理，其他低價資收物，也因為處理麻煩，且沒有任何的價值，像餐盒之類的，即便民眾有分類，最後還是進到焚化爐一途，會不會這樣？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：餐具類的我們是有補貼，我們還是會去督導，有些地方清潔隊，因為有時候標售是高價的標，然後低價的就用不一樣的方式去標，結果造成低價的就沒有人標，我們是鼓勵他們在標售時要一起來標售，這樣比較不會有問題。"],["劉委員建國：所以現在你回答我說低價的沒有人標，最後還是誠如我所講的，還是到焚化爐去了嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對，對。有些是這樣。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有些可能是這樣子。好，那我們這邊會來輔導。"],["劉委員建國：你們怎麼好意思回答我說有些就是這樣？那這樣你叫百姓配合你們做資源回收，到底是什麼？最終還是送到焚化爐去啊。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：的確是少數啦。那我們有瞭解……"],["劉委員建國：你的少數是幾%？署長講清楚，你的少數是幾%？你的少數是幾%？講清楚。我相信你們有相關的統計數據嘛。你讓我們知道啊。如果資源回收是這樣在做處理，那你這個政策和執行力，確實是有很大的問題存在。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為有些地方的清潔隊，有時候我們還是需要去輔導它，然後他們才能夠完全按照我們的方式來做，所以我們會就問題來輔導。"],["劉委員建國：臺灣的資源回收已經做幾年了，我們到現在還用「輔導」這兩個字，這不對吧？今天焚化爐針對要進場的這些垃圾破袋檢查，如果查到資收物已經高過多少的比例，全部退回，然後還要記點，還要去教育訓練，你只要強硬起來，馬上一年可以減少到5,000噸，相當於1,000台垃圾車的運量，我剛剛開場白就講這些話了啊。但如果你現在視而不見，還要用輔導的方式去做處理，這麼軟性的手段在做處理，量當然會高居不下，當然降不下來，這也是原因之一。絕對不是如部長你現在接收到的訊息這樣而已嘛，我覺得這個大大有問題。我們臺灣跟人家講說我們的資源回收做得多進步，怎麼會在人民百姓配合的情況之下，因為這些東西低價而沒辦法處理？所以你現在用輔導的方式，這個沒有道理，這個說不通吧？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個數據上，我會再跟我們同仁一起一個一個算清楚，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：好，請部長慎重面對這個事情，看怎麼樣來處理。","另外，部長有講過環境部要來做數位轉型，這個我絕對百分之百支持，像這種資收物被丟進焚化爐的老問題，有沒有辦法透過AI的科技來做怎麼樣的處理？我為什麼會這麼講？新北最厲害，現在已經有第一台AI的機械手臂，可以快速分類回收物，它會精確識別紙類、紙容器、塑膠、鐵鋁罐等17類的資收物，省去人工分選的人力，而且快速地把資收物挑選出來，那為什麼只有他們有？"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，這一個部分，其實現在宜蘭、新北跟嘉義我們都在試辦，也就是說，剛才委員特別提到進焚化場的資收物達15件以上就全車退回的這個制度，現在全國其實都有，為了更瞭解熱值跟辨別資收物，有這一個試辦計畫正在進行，現在的辨識力大概80%左右，大概還要為期兩年的訓練，如果成功的話，我們會推廣到所有焚化場。"],["劉委員建國：為什麼先選擇這三個縣市？是新北、嘉義和宜蘭嘛，對不對？"],["顏署長旭明：是的。"],["劉委員建國：這三個縣市的資收物，就是像我講的，就是非常不落實，都丟進焚化爐，所以優先選擇他們？"],["顏署長旭明：不是，因為……"],["劉委員建國：做錯事反而先有AI的東西可以使用。"],["顏署長旭明：沒有，沒有。他們的分類非常好，而且很積極，然後也願意跟我們來合作，畢竟這是一個新的技術，以往……"],["劉委員建國：所以這三個縣市就是因為分類特別好，很積極，沒有誠如剛才署長所講的這個狀況持續發生，所以我們有新的AI機械手臂，就讓他們可以先行試用試辦，以資獎勵，應該是這麼講嘛，對不對？二十二個縣市扣掉這三個縣市，其他的十八個縣市一次都做得非常離譜，非常兩光，就像剛剛講的，經常有含資收物10%、20%以上的垃圾全部都進到焚化爐，資源回收都白做了就對了，所以這些人我們就不獎勵了。"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，這個制度，其實以往是用目視的檢查，以前叫做抽查，那我們現在希望能夠普查，如果有AI技術，就可以普查，是這個意思。"],["劉委員建國：你沒有回答我的問題嘛。這三個縣市就是做得不錯，所以在試辦時就優先讓他們有AI的機械手臂來做篩選嘛，對不對？我們應該就是用這樣的鼓勵，我覺得不為過啦，我覺得不為過喔，因為在試辦的過程裡面，不可能全國二十二個縣市一次都來做這個事情嘛，所以你當然會選擇能夠將政策落實去執行的、跟中央比較配合、做得比較淋漓盡致的縣市，有這樣先進的AI篩選手臂，當然優先讓這些縣市試辦，OK啊，減少你們的人力嘛。但是我要表達的就是，相對地，其他十八個縣市到底是出了什麼狀況？"],["顏署長旭明：十八個縣市在廢棄物的進場上面也沒有出特別的狀況，其實剛才委員第一句話就已經講了，尤其是彰化那一個案例，那一個案例其實是全國都有訂定進場的允收標準，所以很多人在講，關於資收物進到焚化場這件事情，實際上焚化場如果發現有資收物進入，就有那一套機制在做，所以我們覺得這個部分可能還要再釐清。焚化場這套制度我們覺得做得還不錯，而且我們有垃圾的檢查。"],["劉委員建國：要怎麼去釐清，問署長就清楚了嘛。因為署長剛才就已經答復我他有掌握了嘛，確實有這個狀況發生嘛，只不過是有沒有很精細地去掌握狀況到底是怎麼樣嘛，所以署長剛剛要問的問題，要提出來的問題，署長剛剛已經答復你了，所以現在我要具體要求，請部長帶回研究，好不好？一個月內提出相關報告，第一個就是針對全國各縣市的垃圾分類、資源回收是否有落實執行，進行一個大盤點，到底有多少資收物被送進焚化爐，我覺得我們有責任要去掌握，這個報告是不是可以一個月內給委員會委員來做參考？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["劉委員建國：這是第一個。","第二個就是說，針對這個輔助的回收和分選的AI智能相關技術，進行相關預算的評估，就像你們現在已經做這樣的一個處理，那是不是可以普及？但是我知道它還是要test一段時間，差不多多久？你的預算規模要到多少？如果大家面對這個事情都覺得是認可的，我相信委員會也會支持你們，但是是不是要讓我們知道你們的評估方式和你們評估的預算的規模達到什麼樣的程度？還有精準度，剛才署長是說到80%，是不是可以有效再提升？這些情況的相關報告，可不可以給委員會來做參考，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，可以。好，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉建國委員的發言。","接下來請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","接下來請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.308468750000001,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.88221875,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.77221875,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.054718750000003,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.46346875,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.47159375,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.640343750000003,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":27.840968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.34721875,"end":36.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.88596875,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.64096875,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.49659375,"end":45.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.48784375,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.158468750000004,"end":50.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.40284375,"end":53.507843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.98034375,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.93596875,"end":70.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.00721875,"end":110.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.27096875000001,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.86534375000001,"end":123.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.15909375000001,"end":126.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.55971875,"end":127.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.04471875000002,"end":129.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.38596875000002,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.30784375000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.02784375000002,"end":157.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.74471875,"end":157.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.31846875000002,"end":161.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.91284375,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.44784375,"end":168.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.83159375000002,"end":170.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.83971875,"end":175.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.25659375,"end":229.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.63221875000002,"end":229.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.64909375000002,"end":236.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.05721875,"end":237.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.09096875,"end":249.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.78096875000003,"end":267.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.38159375000004,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.25471875,"end":270.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.65534375000004,"end":273.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.74346875000003,"end":273.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.76034375,"end":276.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.74721875,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.69971875000005,"end":289.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.04471875,"end":290.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.82096875,"end":291.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.15409375,"end":292.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.25534375,"end":292.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.28909375,"end":292.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.47471875,"end":292.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.50846875,"end":292.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.96409375,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.22971875,"end":294.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.63034375,"end":295.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.38534375,"end":299.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.25846875,"end":305.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.89034375,"end":314.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.66596875000005,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.56409375000004,"end":314.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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那我們這邊會來這個來這個輔導你們怎麼好意思回答我說有些就是這樣那這樣你叫你叫百姓去陪你們做資源回收到底是什麼你最終還是到婚禮去啊的確是少數啊那我們沒有你的少數是幾趴沒有沒有沒有 書長講清楚你的少數是幾趴你的少數是幾趴講清楚是是是"},{"start":408.238,"end":433.432,"text":"我相信你們相關有統計的數據嘛你讓我們知道啊如果資源回收是這樣再做處理那你這個政策顯然還有執行力確實是很大的問題存在的因為有些地方的青年隊他有時候我們還是需要去輔導他然後才能夠完全按照我們的方式來做啦台灣的資源回收已經做幾年了我們到現在還用輔導這兩個字"},{"start":436.131,"end":452.7,"text":"這不對吧?你今天不落入針對整個你要進場的這些垃圾破帶檢查如果查到說你的失蹤物已經高過多少或怎麼樣全部就是退回然後還要祭典然後還到那個地方去做教育訓練"},{"start":454.178,"end":470.332,"text":"你只要你只要強硬起來的情況之下他可以馬上一年的幾乎可以減少減少到5000噸然後相當於1000台我剛剛開場白就講這些話了但如果你現在把他視而不見他用輔導的方式去做處理這麼軟性的的手段在做處理"},{"start":471.033,"end":495.79,"text":"那你當然會高居不下啊你當然站不下來啊這個也是原因之一啊絕對不是成為部長你現在接受到的訊息這樣而已嘛我覺得這大大有問題勒我們台灣跟人家講說我們的自由回收做了多進步啊怎麼會人民百姓配合的情況之下你把這些東西因為它低價所以你沒辦法處理所以你現在用輔導的方式欸這沒道理勒你講這個不通吧"},{"start":498.38,"end":511.879,"text":"報告委員這個數據上我會在來跟我們同仁一起來把它一個一個把它算清楚好不好請部長不斷慎重面對這個事情看怎樣處理另外就是說部長也有講過環境部要來做數位轉型這個我絕對700%支持"},{"start":514.142,"end":514.382,"text":"為什麼只有他們有?"},{"start":542.985,"end":543.187,"text":"提供了"},{"start":545.322,"end":573.38,"text":"報告委員,委員所指導的這一個部分其實在宜蘭、新北跟現在嘉義我們都在試辦就是說剛才委員特別提到就是說近文化場其實那些支收物15件以上等等這個制度現在全國其實都有這個制度那為了更瞭解它的熱值跟辨別支收所以有這一個試辦計畫正在進行那如果它現在辨識率大概80%左右"},{"start":574.961,"end":591.898,"text":"那大概還要兩年的一個訓練如果成功的話我們會推廣到所有文化場以上為什麼先選擇這三個縣市新北、嘉義還有宜蘭嘛對不對是的是他們這三個縣市的整個製作物就是像我講的就是非常不落實通常就有文化爐所以優先他們選擇"},{"start":592.679,"end":597.302,"text":"所以這三個縣市就是因為分類特別好很積極沒有成如剛才署長所講的這個狀況持續發生所以我們有AI新的這樣的一個技術所必就讓他們可以來先行試用試辦以之獎勵嘛應該是這麼講嘛對不對"},{"start":620.059,"end":621.2,"text":"這一個制度其實以往是用牧師的檢查"},{"start":646.098,"end":664.04,"text":"那我們是希望他以前叫做抽查嘛現在希望能夠普查如果有AI技術他就可以普查是這個意思你沒有回答我問題嘛這三個縣市是就是做得不錯所以我們在事辦就優先讓他們有這個AI的機械手臂來做篩選嘛對不對"},{"start":665.241,"end":692.657,"text":"應該我們就是用這樣鼓勵我覺得我覺得不為過啦我覺得不為過喔因為你不可能因為在事辦的過程裡面你不可能一次全國全國22個縣市都來做這個事情嘛所以你當然會選擇就是說你跟跟我們這個政策比較落實去執行的跟中央比較配合的然後也做比較淋漓盡致的我當然有這樣的先進的這個AI的這個篩選的手臂來讓你優先事辦OK啊減少你們的人力嘛"},{"start":693.897,"end":716.603,"text":"但是相對的我要表達就是相對的其他的18個縣市到底是出了什麼狀況18個縣市在廢棄物的進場上面也沒有出特別的狀況其實剛才委員第一句話就已經講了尤其是彰化那個案例那個案例其實是全國都有訂定進場的飲食標準所以很多人在講就是說垃圾"},{"start":717.143,"end":718.665,"text":"〔廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升〕"},{"start":738.287,"end":753.452,"text":"我覺得是這樣,要怎麼去釐清,問署長就清楚了嘛,因為署長剛才就已經打呼我,他有掌握嘛,確實很多有這個狀況發生嘛,只不過是不是有沒有很精細的去掌握他的狀況到底是什麼樣嘛。"},{"start":755.477,"end":776.265,"text":"所以 署長剛剛你要問的問題你要提出來的問題署長剛剛已經答覆你的所以我現在我要具體這樣要求了請部長待會研究好不好一個月來提出這相關報告第一個就針對全國各縣市的垃圾分類試驗回收是否有落實執行進行一個大盤點那到底有多少製作物被送進葫蘆爐"},{"start":777.225,"end":806.08,"text":"我覺得我們有責任要去做掌握這個報告是不是可以一個月給委員會來做參考這第一個第二個就是說針對這個輔助的回收還有這個分選等AI的智能相關技術進行相關預算的評估就像你們現在已經做這樣的一個處理那是不是可以普及但是我知道他還是要test一段時間差不多多久你的預算規模要到多少"},{"start":807,"end":807.781,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"153742","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153742","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b6319585948bdc412248f66a23a11b538d38369fa36eb79f8e0e12c3ca3549315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:49:16 - 11:57:43","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:49:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:57:43+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時49分）謝謝主席，請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["謝委員衣鳯：總裁早安。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：今天討論的是日圓貶值，其實不只日圓，還有韓元，在這樣競貶的情況下，當然，大家會認為在相似程度高的情況下，因為幣值競貶，但臺幣相對來說沒有貶那麼多，對我們的出口是不是不利？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上我們在報告中也提到，臺灣的出口主要還是受到國際景氣因素的影響，匯率這個部分雖然它可能也是原因，但是它影響的程度不比國際經濟景氣來的重要。你剛才說到日本的出口、南韓的出口，因為南韓、日本都是貶值，但是你也提到，臺幣貶值的幅度沒有比他們大，事實上我們的出口都比他們好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果我們貶值再多一點，是不是會更好？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，貶值多一點好不好？中央銀行的職責在中央銀行法裡面就有提到，中央銀行的職責是維持匯率的相對穩定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：本席知道。"],["楊總裁金龍：如果我們促貶，讓它提高競爭力，這好像不是我們的職責。或者讓新臺幣升值，讓我們的產業能夠升級，這個也不是我們的職責，而且這兩個方式是不是能夠達到這樣的結果？說實在的，我們是懷疑的。所以就中央銀行來說，我們遵守中央銀行法，讓新臺幣的匯率能夠穩定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。看一下我們的CPI，其實CPI這10年以來，每年的年增率都是維持在1%左右。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去都是1.5%或者1%，這是我們的常態。但是2022年、2023年，我們發現可能是疫情的關係，也可能是原物料上漲的原因，好像都維持在百分之二點多以上的幅度。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員說的沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來百分之二點多會不會成為新的常態？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員說的這個也是重點，所以中央銀行一直在關心，我們的通膨是不是結構上會有一些改變，這就是委員現在說的一個重點。事實上我們上次會調升利息，主要也是因為我們連續4年都差不多在2%，這和我們以前的結構稍微有點不一樣。剛才委員說的，我也和王委員說過，事實上從2008年以後到2019年，我們的通膨平均都不是1%。這個2%，當然，和以前比較的話，我們的民眾會比較不習慣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：它主要是因為原物料上漲，還有COVID-19、俄烏戰爭等因素，這些因素導致通膨。但是委員剛才說的，結構是否有所改變？這是中央銀行現在在密切注意的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是從民間的角度來看，他們認為自己受到通膨的影響更大……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員說的沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我們的CPI是不是有失真的情況？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我要向委員報告，事實上我們的CPI是368項的加權平均總和，但是我們民眾比較關注的，第一個是17項的民生用品，對不對？還有每個月至少購買一次的商品。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是很不幸的，在這段期間，這些因素都和原物料、外食、房租等等有關，它的平均漲幅都比CPI來得高，所以就會產生委員現在所說的，民眾的感受和CPI呈現的不一樣。不過我也必須承認，事實上每個月至少購買一次的商品物價，是比CPI高，這是第一點。17項……"],["謝委員衣鳯：房租。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，17項的民生用品部分也是一樣。不過，基本上從去年開始，我們包括至少購買一次的商品，還有17項民生用品，這些物價都在慢慢下降，不只是這兩項，事實上CPI也在慢慢下降。也就是說，中央銀行的利率政策主要是看CPI，不能因為房租上漲，我們的貨幣政策就要做某些調整，不是的！中央銀行的貨幣政策是看整體的狀況，但是人民的感受是這17項民生用品，還有每月至少購買一次的商品，不過我還是要強調，這些項目的物價都在慢慢下降。"],["謝委員衣鳯：最後我要請教一個問題，我們GDP第一季的數字非常亮眼，那是因為我們去年同期的基期非常低嘛，是在這樣的情況之下，但是為什麼民眾對GDP的大幅上升無感？我們第一季是6.56%，全年度可能又調升了，快要接近4%左右，對不對？為什麼民眾沒有感受到呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上GDP是我們總體的經濟表現，但是個人呢？特別是弱勢者，或是狀況比較不好的，受限於他的薪資成長幅度不夠高。問題是我們的GDP是整體性的，CPI也是整體性的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所得分配的情況不符合民眾……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以很容易就像委員說的，怎麼都和民眾的觀感不太一樣？問題就出在這裡。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅委員不在。","請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲，林委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清源，蘇委員不在。","請麥玉珍、麥玉珍、麥玉珍，麥委員不在。","請游顥、游顥、游顥，游委員不在。","請陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳委員不在。","請葉元之委員。","因為時間關係，我們等發言完畢才結束。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.10221875,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.072218750000001,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.99534375,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.349718750000001,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.36221875,"end":13.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.41284375,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.58159375,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.73346875,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.868468750000002,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.138468750000001,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.129718750000002,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.500968750000006,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.744718750000004,"end":56.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.119093750000005,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.063468750000006,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.63971875,"end":76.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.91346875,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.20596875000001,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.21784375,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.30971875,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.55721875,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.47659375,"end":119.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.01659375000001,"end":147.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.53534375,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.04034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5.296,"end":117.638,"text":"所以那如果我們還貶值大一點的時候會不會更好?貶值大一點,第一個就是說貶值大一點好不好我們現在就是說貶值,我們中央銀行的職責在我們中央銀行法裡面就講到我們中央銀行的一個職責維持匯率的相對穩定"},{"start":118.439,"end":121.361,"text":"我知道我們很難就說我們來讓他出別然後來提高競爭力好像這個也不是我們的職責我們讓我們的新台幣升值然後來能夠提升我們的讓我們的產業能夠產業升級這個也不是我們的職責"},{"start":141.494,"end":154.576,"text":"事實上這兩個是不是能夠達到這樣的一個結果呢?說實在的我們都還是懷疑所以就中央銀行來講的話我們遵守我們中央銀行法讓新台幣的匯率能夠穩定"},{"start":157.15,"end":178.129,"text":"我想要看一下你能不能放下一張投影片就是我們看一下我們的CPI就是CPI其實從過去以來我們看到這10年以來CPI CPI的那個我們這10年以來其實CPI每年的年增率都是維持在一左右的這樣子的情況"},{"start":180.573,"end":205.993,"text":"過去以來1.5或者是1是我們的常態但是從從我們的2022年2023年其實我們發現有可能是疫情的關係有可能是原物料上漲的原因好像都維持了一個2點多以上的這樣子的幅度那未來會不會2點多是"},{"start":210.096,"end":224.249,"text":"所以委員講的這個也是重點所以我們中央銀行我們也是一直在關心我們的通膨是不是結果上會有一些的改變這個就是委員現在講的一個重點"},{"start":225.35,"end":240.19,"text":"事實上我跟委員報告我們上一次會調升利息主要的也是我們也是認為就是說我們連續4年都差不多在2%那這個跟我們以前的那個結果稍微有一點不大一樣"},{"start":240.831,"end":258.743,"text":"我覺得剛剛委員就是說我們以前大概平均這個剛剛我也是在講跟那個王委員在講就是說事實上我們從2008年以後到2019年之前我們的通膨都平均不到1%那這個2%第一個2%大概當然就是說相較之下我們跟以前來比較的話我們的民眾會比較不習慣"},{"start":266.969,"end":267.83,"text":"但是其實從民間的角度來看"},{"start":289.909,"end":300.743,"text":"他們認為他們受到這些通膨的影響更大。所以,是不是我們的CPI有失真的情況?所以我就跟委員報告,事實上我們的CPI是368項的。"},{"start":309.193,"end":330.946,"text":"加權平均的總和但是呢我們民眾比較會關注的就是說第一個17項的民生用品對不對還有就是說每個月至少購買一次的商品但是呢很不幸的就是說在這一段期間呢因為這個都是跟原物料跟外食跟什麼房租這些有關係這個呢"},{"start":333.067,"end":360.019,"text":"就是說它的一個平均的高度都比你的CPI來得高所以呢這個就會產生委員現在所講的說民眾所感受的跟你的CPI不一樣不過呢我也必須要承認就是說事實上在每個月每個月就是說買至少購買一次的這個CPI的那個物價呢事實上呢它是比CPI都高這個第一點"},{"start":360.859,"end":380.365,"text":"那你的那個17項的那個也是一樣的不過我跟委員報告基本上從去年開始我們的這些至少購買一次的還有17項的這些的物價都是慢慢慢慢的在下降"},{"start":381.445,"end":403.084,"text":"不只是說這兩項事實上CPI也是慢慢的在下降所以也就是說我們中央銀行的一個利率政策主要我們是看的是CPI那我們也不能說是房租針對房租說上漲我們的貨幣政策都要做某些的調整不是中央銀行的貨幣政策是看整個的"},{"start":404.245,"end":423.163,"text":"但是呢人民的感受呢是這些17項啊還有我那個什麼還有就是說那個至少購買一個不過我還是要強調的這些的物價呢是都是慢慢在下來都是慢慢在下來還有一個問題我最後還請教一個問題就是我們GDP第一季那個"},{"start":423.983,"end":447.022,"text":"我們第一季的數字是非常亮眼的那是因為我們去年同期的基期非常低嘛對這樣的情況下但是為什麼民眾對於我們GDP的這樣子大幅度的上升有可能我們第一季是6.56嘛那全年度可能又調升了嘛可能快要接近4左右了對不對"},{"start":448.202,"end":474.368,"text":"為什麼民眾沒有感受呢?我跟委員報告事實上我們的GDP是我們總體的經濟的表現那我們的個人特別是做弱勢者或是說比較那個就是說因為他的薪資因為他的薪資成長的幅度不過高"},{"start":475.268,"end":475.288,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":503.823,"end":504.508,"text":"下一集請羅廷偉羅廷偉"}]}},{"id":"153741","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153741","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5692888304a241f879dbbe5275cafb4dfee56b966b91e1130016580a9b45654d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:44:20 - 11:55:41","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:44:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:55:41+08:00","duration":681,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時44分）謝謝召委安排今天這個非常重要的主題，我要先請部長，待會兒再請署長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["范委員雲：部長，快要午安了，辛苦了。剛剛林宜瑾委員有問到中正紀念堂的事情，我滿贊同他的看法，所以我就想到，不知道部長有沒有看過文化部針對促轉會解散之後，去年3月曾經來我們教文委員會報告，文化部關於轉型正義的三大任務，部長有看過那個報告嗎？沒有沒關係。"],["李部長遠：我沒有看過，但是我大約知道它的方向。"],["范委員雲：那您知道這三大任務，就是促轉會解散後，各部會的就歸各部會，文化部關於轉型正義的三大任務是什麼您知不知道？"],["李部長遠：中正紀念堂的轉型好像是由我們文化部來主責，成立一個……"],["范委員雲：對，中正紀念堂轉型是三大之一，另外兩個，一個是政治檔案的研究跟人權教育，還有一個是不義遺址。"],["李部長遠：不義遺址，對。"],["范委員雲：關於中正紀念堂轉型的方向，不知道您曉不曉得？就是寫在你們自己的報告。"],["李部長遠：我假如沒有記錯的話，就是去威權跟去崇拜這兩個方向。"],["范委員雲：對，就是去威權，然後要讓它變成符合民主人權。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["范委員雲：詳細的文字我不記得，但是非常清楚就是逐步去威權，所以林宜瑾委員剛剛講的那個方向，我覺得如果國防部支持的話，真的要做啦！觀光休閒不是不重要，可是我們想想看，我記得我跟宜瑾委員去英國國會外交過，皇室才有皇家儀典，那中正紀念堂既然不是皇室的話，現在繼續有三軍儀隊，那個意義代表什麼？其實跟我們民主國家的人權價值是有矛盾的，所以我們逐步用溝通、說服的方式達成社會共識，但是不代表我們沒有價值、立場跟方向，好不好？這是第一個，我支持林宜瑾委員剛剛講到的部分，也提醒部長。","第二個，我也想問部長，因為你們今天報告寫得非常清楚，文化部放在臺灣臺語的預算是15億，請問部長，這個15億是占文化部年度預算的百分之多少？"],["李部長遠：非常少，我還要算一下，它並不多。"],["范委員雲：對，那次長知道嗎？可以幫忙一下。不知道？"],["李次長靜慧：因為我們今年的預算是298億，所以是15億除以298億。"],["范委員雲：15億除以298億是多少？誰可以幫忙算一下？"],["李次長靜慧：5%。"],["范委員雲：5%喔？如果臺灣臺語都這麼少，我想客語、原住民語應該是更少嘛！可是我看到你們的結論說語言是文化的靈魂，語言既然是文化的靈魂，我們對靈魂的投資只有5%，這是不是太低了？所以我希望部長可以協助。剛剛很高興聽到您在回應林俊憲委員的時候，有提到您過去在華視，是不是？"],["李部長遠：台視、華視都做過。"],["范委員雲：台視、華視，把8點檔改成臺語，我覺得非常好。"],["李部長遠：改成臺語，對。"],["范委員雲：因為它的確是消失中的語言，像我這個世代，我媽媽是雲林人，但是因為禁說臺語，我就因此沒有機會學到了。因為我媽媽是兩個語言都很棒，我爸爸是跟蔣介石軍隊來的，他完全不會說臺語，但是他也改了他的鄉音，學了華語，可是我在我的辦公室是臺語講得最「輪轉」的，所以你可以知道這個臺語消失的世代，剛剛林俊憲委員說最後一代臺語人，是真的危機很深，文化部只放5%在臺灣臺語，如果語言是文化的靈魂的話，是不是可以統整一下過去10年在這方面的預算，然後未來如何逐步增加，好嗎？","我們是政府部門，對於瀕臨消失的語言，因為語言有強勢跟弱勢，強勢的語言它就是商業能力強，你不用規定大家就自己學，英語就是嘛！那弱勢語言就是特別需要文化部花資源，如果文化部這邊有有趣的材料，教育部那邊的學生就會有興趣學，我想這個部分絕對要有精彩的文化作品，教育部的工作才能做好，好不好？請部長盤點一下，讓我們知道你未來4年如何逐步增加，給我一份報告好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，包括電影、電視，其實我們一直在增加中。"],["范委員雲：有一個計畫方向，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題。"],["范委員雲：像我看過的「魔法阿媽」就非常棒。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["范委員雲：它就是不同的語言，然後裡面的阿媽就是講臺語，非常的精彩，大家都喜歡。"],["李部長遠：「魔法阿媽」現在在做第2集。"],["范委員雲：我有聽說了，我覺得至少我看到的，這是一個非常好的本土的……"],["李部長遠：對，很好。"],["范委員雲：有把臺語融入在裡面，是很精彩的一個作品。好，謝謝部長，您請回。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：我們請署長。"],["主席：有請署長。"],["范委員雲：署長，就教育的部分來講，我們辦公室跟你們索資，然後做了研究之後，雙語政策增加師資來源是4年30億，可是我們增加本土語言師資來源，5年總計只有十四億多，同是師資增加經費，雙語政策是國家語言的兩倍，這個署長您知道吧？"],["彭署長富源：委員，在項目的定義上容我再說明，但是我們從兩個計畫的比較來看，雙語計畫在111年到112年總共投資，不含外師是18億，那我們的本土語言是23億。"],["范委員雲：對，但是我現在講的是師資，還沒有講別的資源喔！"],["彭署長富源：本土語言是23億。"],["范委員雲：這個部分是我看到的資料，而且雙語政策我們這裡只有講師資，還有其他很多的資源，您了解嘛！"],["彭署長富源：了解。"],["范委員雲：本土語言除了師資之外，其他的預算是更少的。我想請問您，雙語政策裡面是嘉惠幾種語言？"],["彭署長富源：雙語，如果就目前看到的，可能大家會覺得是英語跟華語，但是我們今天報告中有提到沉浸式的，那裡面就有非常多，譬如說有700校在處理的，它的另外一語就是本土語言。"],["范委員雲：好，但是你這個雙語的師資沒有華語嘛！雙語裡面就是一個語言，英語嘛！"],["彭署長富源：也不見得。一個是英語，這的確是目前執行的大宗，但是現在……"],["范委員雲：對，所以主要就是英語嘛！"],["彭署長富源：對。"],["范委員雲：我們時間有限，但是本土語文的師資是幾種語言你知不知道？"],["彭署長富源：本土語言的師資，如果真的要盤點的話，可以到59個，含語系。"],["范委員雲：59個。"],["彭署長富源：含語系。"],["范委員雲：所以雙語其實就是英語，我們講雙語，可是目前其實就是英語嘛！你英語一個語文的師資來源，4年規劃了30億，本土語言你剛剛講五十幾種，我這邊辦公室寫至少二十幾種，5年只有14億喔！所以教育部在國家語言教育跟英語教育的巨大資源落差，其實我是滿憂心的，我並沒有說要刪減雙語政策的師資，那個部分我覺得教育部做了，那是一個方向，可是國家語言這個部分，有五十幾種語言分享這麼有限的師資資源，真的是目前的一個危機。","其實當時我們在通過相關的法的時候，潘部長就已經說了，師資是挑戰，這個是當時的新聞。到現在為止，你如果去問第一線的老師等等，他們也是會告訴你，師資不足是很嚴重的問題，那剛剛署長已經回應，有好多委員在關心這個問題，我就不重複了。我只是在講，如果把裡面的客語拿出來看，因為剛剛我們講了很多臺灣臺語的部分，在客語的部分，從117學年起，達門檻學校應有客語專長教師至少1人，可是你看我們最近找到的資料，第一線教師反映，學校好像不了解你們通過的辦法和這些資訊，都沒有積極開缺。","以客語來看，至少臺灣台語在111到112學年度，地方政府還開缺了39人，客語只有新竹縣在開缺耶！只有4人。請問署長，能不能夠解決這個問題？相比之下，師資的部分就是完全都不開缺，只有新竹縣需要客語老師嗎？"],["彭署長富源：應該不是，委員給我5秒鐘跟您報告一下。"],["范委員雲：好。"],["彭署長富源：關於這個師資是到117年，在客語重點發展區它有一定的規範，例如在國中14班以上的要有1個，全臺灣有12個，那我們怎麼做？兩點來做，第一點，列考核；第二點，給予獎勵來運用它。那麼因為是到117年，現在是準備進到113年，那目前我們的管制，剛剛的4人現在已經進到12人，所以在相關的方法上是有效的，但我們還是照委員的要求，持續努力。"],["范委員雲：繼續努力，至少要讓地方政府知道這都是需要的，如果連客語大縣都只有要求4人，苗栗那些都還沒有看到的話，我想這個危機一直都存在。","最後，我們針對雙語做了非常多，像是大學生偏鄉陪伴、學伴，沉浸式教學是我們雙語教育要做的，針對國家語言發展會議，這是文化部主責的，其實第八項建議就是沉浸式教學需要誘因，那教育部是不是可以比照我們的雙語政策？你雖然剛剛說有一點，但是我懷疑比重非常少，針對國家語言，特別是今天我們幾位講到的，其實就是臺灣臺語、臺灣客語跟原住民語也能夠發展出大學生偏鄉陪伴、學伴的這些機制，讓它的沉浸式教學能夠得到教育部更多資源的挹注，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：沒問題，照委員這個方向，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：好，多久之內可以把這個初步規劃給我們辦公室一份？"],["彭署長富源：3週內。"],["范委員雲：3週，好，謝謝署長，加油啊！"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，署長請回。","接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 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有請李部長"},{"start":12.202,"end":36.714,"text":"部長快要午安了辛苦了那剛剛因為林一金委員有問到中正紀念堂的事情那我蠻贊同他的看法所以就想到不知道部長有沒有看過那個我們文化部針對那個促轉會解散之後曾經來我們教育委員會去年3月報告的文化部關於轉型正義的三大任務部長有看過那個報告嗎"},{"start":38.716,"end":51.212,"text":"我沒有看過但是我大約知道他的方向您知道那個三大任務就是促轉會解散後那有各部會就歸各部會文化部關於轉型正義的三大任務是什麼您知不知道"},{"start":53.159,"end":57.301,"text":"中正紀念堂的轉型好像是由我們文化部來主責對,中正紀念堂轉型是三大之一另外兩個一個是政治檔案的研究跟人權教育還有一個是不義移植關於中正紀念堂轉型裡面的方向不知道您曉不曉得就是寫在你們自己的報告裡我假如沒有記錯的話就是去威權跟去崇拜這兩個方向"},{"start":80.41,"end":82.992,"text":"就是去威權然後要讓它變成是一個符合民主人權的那詳細的文字我不記得但是非常清楚就是逐步去威權所以林益金委員剛剛講的那個方向我覺得如果國防部支持的話"},{"start":96.462,"end":96.602,"text":"中文建討．"},{"start":116.567,"end":117.068,"text":"我想這是一個支持林議員剛剛講到的部分也提醒部長"},{"start":138.669,"end":140.17,"text":"市長知道嗎?可以幫忙一下。不知道齁?"},{"start":163.289,"end":163.809,"text":"15億除以298是多少?誰可以幫算一下?"},{"start":174.892,"end":203.755,"text":"五百分之五五百分之五喔那我想如果台灣台語都這麼少客語原住民語應該是更少嘛可是我看到你們的結論說語言是文化的靈魂語言既然是文化的靈魂我們對靈魂的投資只有百分之五這是不是太低了所以我覺得也希望那個部長可以協助剛剛很高興聽到您在回應林俊憲委員的時候有提到您過去當那個是華氏是不是"},{"start":204.275,"end":205.216,"text":"但是我在我辦公室是台語講得最令動的"},{"start":234.133,"end":252.519,"text":"所以你可以知道這個臺語消失的世代剛剛林俊憲委員說最後一代臺語人是真的危機很深危機很深文化部只放5%在語言式文化的靈魂的話是不是可以統整一下就是過去10年"},{"start":253.899,"end":271.032,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":271.152,"end":295.677,"text":"那弱勢語言就是特別需要文化部花資源而且讓文化部這邊有有趣的材料教育部的那邊的學生就會有興趣學我想這個部分絕對要有精彩的文化作品教育部的工作才能做好好不好那請那個部長可以盤點一下讓我們知道你未來4年的如何逐步增加的報告可以給我們給我一份好嗎"},{"start":296.657,"end":315.114,"text":"包括電影、電視其實我們一直在增加中那有個計畫方向像那個我看過的那個魔法阿嬤就非常棒他就是不同的語言然後裡面阿嬤就是講台語然後非常的精彩那大家都喜歡魔法阿嬤現在在作惡"},{"start":315.994,"end":317.375,"text":"謝謝部長,您請回。好,謝謝。那我們請那個署長。好,有請署長。"},{"start":335.54,"end":360.061,"text":"委員長,我其實想就教育的來講我們辦公室跟你們所知做了研究之後雙語政策我們師資來源是4年30億可是我們增加本土語言師資來源5年總計只有14億多同時師資增加經費雙語政策是國家語言的兩倍這個署長您知道吧"},{"start":362.502,"end":366.727,"text":"有些在項目的定義上容我在說明但是我們從兩個計畫的比較來看兩個計畫雙語計畫在111年到112年總共投資不含外資是18億本土元是23億"},{"start":383.143,"end":383.403,"text":"雙語政策是嘉惠幾種語言?"},{"start":405.336,"end":420.889,"text":"雙語,如果就目前看到的可能大家會覺得是英語跟華語但是我們今天報告中有提到陳進士的那裡面就有非常多比如說有700校在處理的他的那個另外語就是本土語言但是你這個雙語的這個師資沒有華語嗎?雙語裡面就是一個語言英語嗎?"},{"start":425.333,"end":426.935,"text":"但是本土語文這個師資是集中語言你知不知道?"},{"start":440.199,"end":440.459,"text":"范雲主席"},{"start":459.23,"end":459.39,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":486.269,"end":492.191,"text":"就是說有50幾種語言分享這麼有限的師資的資源真的是目前的一個危機那其實潘部長當時我們在通過相關的法的時候他就已經說了師資是挑戰這是當時的那個新聞那到現在為止你如果去問第一線的老師等等他們也是會告訴你師資不足是很嚴重的問題"},{"start":512.116,"end":532.791,"text":"主席,您已經回應了許多委員關心這個問題了,我就不重複了。我只是在講,如果把裡面的課語拿出來看,因為剛剛我們講了很多台灣台語的課語的部分,從17學年起達門檻學校應有課語專長教師至少一人或什麼,可是你看到我們"},{"start":533.672,"end":541.977,"text":"最近我們找到的資料第一線教師反映學校好像不了解你們通過的辦法這些資訊都沒有積極開缺"},{"start":543.991,"end":570.687,"text":"以客語來看至少這個臺灣台語還各縣市開缺11到12學年度地方政府開缺了39人客語只有新竹縣在開缺只有4人所以請問署長能不能夠解決這個問題相比之下就是就師資的部分就是完全都不開缺只有新竹縣需要客語老師嗎"},{"start":572.068,"end":575.269,"text":"這個實資的說明他是到117年在課語重點發展區他有一定的規範例如在國中14班以上的要有一個全台灣有12個"},{"start":588.515,"end":607.038,"text":"我們怎麼做?兩點來做第一點列考核第二點給予獎勵來運用它那麼因為是到117年現在是準備進到113年那目前我們的管制剛剛的4人現在已經進到12人所以在相關的方法上是有效的但我們還是照委員的要求繼續努力"},{"start":607.939,"end":628.275,"text":"繼續努力至少要讓地方政府知道這都需要的如果連客語大限都只有要求四人那苗栗那些還都沒有看到的話我想這個危機一直都存在那最後呢我想我們針對雙語做了非常多大學生偏鄉陪伴學伴"},{"start":629.636,"end":655.274,"text":"陳靜氏教學是我們雙語教育要做的那我們針對國家語言發展會議這是文化部主責的其實第8項建議就是陳靜氏教學需要誘因那教育部是不是可以比照我們的雙語政策你雖然剛剛說有一點但是我懷疑比重非常少那針對我們國家語言特別是今天我們幾位講到的其實就是台灣台語、台灣客語跟原住民語言"},{"start":657.816,"end":676.906,"text":"能夠也發展出大學生偏鄉陪伴學辦的這些機制讓他的沉浸式教學能夠得到教育部更多資源的一個益助好不好?沒問題,稍微那個方向,謝謝那多久之內可以把這個初步規劃給我們辦公室一份呢?三週內三週喔,好,那謝謝署長,那加油喔謝謝委員好,謝謝范委員"}]}},{"id":"153740","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153740","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5ca6f4de14696b34f2248f66a23a11b53ee56b966b91e1130b8e2350fbdd246935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:42:16 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的條件導致很多人可能他原本要去買一個可能超過一定單價的房屋對不對"},{"start":95.365,"end":112.959,"text":"那因為我們這個門檻設立了之後他不想當冤大頭他不想去買了但他還是有買房屋的需求嘛對不對他就往下來找那他造成了原本去買高單價跟一般民眾這不從市場的一個購屋需求"},{"start":113.78,"end":114.24,"text":"〔廖先翔〕"},{"start":143.78,"end":161.674,"text":"我覺得有沒有幾分道理我是第一次聽到有這樣的一個說法不過呢我也總覺得委員講這個雖然是第一次但是好像也有道理不過呢"},{"start":163.455,"end":188.924,"text":"確實我誠實跟委員報告我們沒有這樣的一個資訊所以呢也許我們來掌握看看可能就是說是真的就是說豪宅的這個部分因為就我們了解了就是說我們都認為就是說對於豪宅為什麼我們對豪宅要對他那信用管制因為豪宅基本上呢他比較risky"},{"start":190.049,"end":191.491,"text":"但是問題是在於就是說我們的豪宅基本上大部分都是那些有錢人"},{"start":205.866,"end":208.308,"text":"總裁最近在我們豪宅這幾年我們俗稱的豪宅這幾年高價的房屋確實在交易面"},{"start":232.282,"end":249.368,"text":"有很大的急縮嗎?這應該是沒錯嗎?這應該是客觀的一個事實那原本去交易那些豪宅的人都跑去哪裡了?他是完全不買房子嗎?或許有部分的人他就不買了所以我說委員你的這個資訊是我第一次聽到那或許有些人是不是往下來尋求他認為合理的價格"},{"start":253.53,"end":258.392,"text":"總裁金龍 今天會問總裁最主要是昨天的新聞 總裁應該非常清楚 6月可能要針對高單價房屋的門檻再來調降 尤其是這幾年房屋單價不斷的提高 那房屋"},{"start":276.36,"end":304.972,"text":"越來越小那越來越容易達到了這個所謂豪宅的門檻那就導致這個大家所有的建商都把所有的坪數再往下降單價上升了他只能來降坪數那現在市場上面所供應的房屋他到底有沒有符合我們所謂所基本的人權我們一個基本的人權假設一家四口我需要多大的一個室內空間那假設我在台北市公設三十幾趴的情況下"},{"start":306.493,"end":324.635,"text":"我只是要尋求一個基本居住的一個合理的有人權的居住空間結果就達到豪宅的門檻了那所以說當我們這個金額降到太低的時候其實就我的看來其實也是剝奪了我們一般的民眾去尋求合理有尊嚴的居住空間的一個門檻"},{"start":326.837,"end":330.502,"text":"事實上,廖委員,你講的這個道理我是第一次聽到,但是我總覺得"},{"start":337.662,"end":338.503,"text":"我希望說在訂定的時候有時候不要說"},{"start":364.119,"end":388.704,"text":"打豪宅聽起來都很爽啊我聽了也很爽啊多課點稅反正又課不到我對不對但是我們必須要去思考一下他所後續帶來的聯誼會不會影響到我們的普羅大眾所以我剛剛提到的兩點第一個就是購買豪宅的客群到底會不會因為他的移動來波及一般的民眾對一般的民眾第二個是我們的人均所應該賦予的有尊嚴的居住的空間"},{"start":389.864,"end":390.064,"text":"請謝依鳳謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153739","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153739","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d55ac812cd1375f89df3bd234b5abfe8c9ee56b966b91e1130c8de6a88177388315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:40:27 - 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行政院也發了函誓與地方政府要求未來應該要優先使用所以首先我想請問部長今天我們的專題報告除了文化部的報告以外你有沒有看過教育部還有客委會、原文明會的報告"},{"start":98.09,"end":113.077,"text":"我沒有 我只看到我們自己的好 那麼光是我舉教育部今天的報告來說裡面使用到閩南語的次數是44次而使用到台語的次數是4次"},{"start":115.421,"end":119.165,"text":"這個問題其實在立法院本委員會不是第一次提出了2022年的時候當時的賴秉渝委員在實訊當中就要求文化部因為你們是法規的主責單位當然後續的業務分工還有教育部、人民會、客委會但你們是法規主管機關"},{"start":135.382,"end":146.611,"text":"當時就要求文化部必須要來督導及協調對部會要趕快至少在公文書至少你們自己使用的公文書趕快來證明了你們自己的公文書都不證明你們發的函字給地方政府誰會來遵守"},{"start":158.313,"end":174.923,"text":"當時2022年文化部長前部長李永德也就承諾文化部會來協調相關部會而當時的教育部長潘文忠部長也承諾教育部會開始進行盤點我請問國教署署長今天我們提供的報告裡面"},{"start":176.752,"end":186.183,"text":"你們就沒有依照你們自己的含釋沒有來優先使用我們國家語言發展方案裡面要求的名稱證明就應該使用臺灣台語來 署長有沒有發現這個問題"},{"start":195.144,"end":212.815,"text":"謝謝委員 這件事情一直在行政院裡面有一些協調 文化部也很認真在處理我就請問你們教育部 你就你主責的部分回答就我們主責的部分 國教署負責課綱的部分 那課綱的部分剛才有回應報告過書長啊 我現在就請問你今天的專題報告內容這一份公文書"},{"start":219.409,"end":224.992,"text":"需要來請教地方政府嗎?需要請教教學現場嗎?這份公文書是誰核定的?這一個報告是誰核定的?是。你們有沒有辦法來決定你要使用什麼樣的名稱?有沒有辦法?我就只這一份報告就好了。你不要跟我講課綱。"},{"start":241.872,"end":243.492,"text":"光是這一份報告就可以看出我們現在的問題"},{"start":264.577,"end":274.169,"text":"我們部長、你們教育部已經承諾過要來進行盤點有困難的部分我們非常清楚但是可以做的趕快開始做"},{"start":278.099,"end":281.523,"text":"不要再找其他的理由來,什麼時候完成盤點?這是你們早就要完成盤點的事情兩年前,2022年你們就承諾要盤點了什麼時候完成盤點?兩個禮拜之內可不可以?"},{"start":297.139,"end":303.882,"text":"委員我們現在你主責的業務教育部主責的業務今天部長沒有來回去轉達教育部主責的業務可以來改進的部分趕快完成其他需要跟地方政府協調你們有問題的法規主管機關文化部嘛有需要報給院嘛大家一起來幫忙"},{"start":319.895,"end":325.917,"text":"可不可以做到?2022年的時候教育部長在這個地方就承諾立法委員要來進行盤點已經給你們兩年的時間了你們已經延宕兩年所以兩週之內完成教育部的盤點就就台灣台語要證明使用的部分告訴我們你們現有就可以來協調的公文書不需要協調啦"},{"start":347.756,"end":348.297,"text":"我請文化部長"},{"start":359.421,"end":365.862,"text":"部長你是新任的部長但我不需要拜託你這個問題兩年之前我們教委會的委員就已經提出來了你們還是法規的主管及管情部長務必後續要去追蹤各個部會我們是不是已經在進行優先使用證明了因為這對我們來說我們政府"},{"start":381.966,"end":392.429,"text":"要呼籲我們整體社會一起來肯認一起來投入我們國家正在瀕臨流失的語言的保存使用我們連一份來立法院的專題報告都沒有辦法優先證明了我們如何來帶領社會呢?部長後續請你務必要去追蹤這一點我會加強"},{"start":407.199,"end":423.408,"text":"好部長也要請問你的事因為今天這個報告對我們來說很重要因為我們立法的目的就是希望看到國家語言我們曾經被剝奪學習的母語有辦法重新的回到我們的生活當中那就文化部所負責來"},{"start":424.369,"end":425.609,"text":"我請那個有沒有達到你們有限定定的目標好請施展"},{"start":454.063,"end":458.367,"text":"委員好這是我們在4月30日收建86件那目前正在審核當中我們在這個禮拜五會開決審會議就是知道會公大概有幾件會議這個我覺得很重要這個簡報上面是我曾經參加一個podcast的受訪那主持人就要求我說這一集我們就全程來使用台語結果呢那個就"},{"start":474.463,"end":480.504,"text":"現場就變成他們說叫蔡基互佐因為我這輩我是1987年那一年出生我這輩的台語的狀況就是說在家裡爸爸媽媽都跟我們講台語結果我們從小聽台語都跟他發語這樣所以說我也是從小學一學開始專業一學我才很努力在學習台語所以呢"},{"start":497.728,"end":498.228,"text":"除了這個網路影音以外呢部長"},{"start":517.468,"end":527.832,"text":"你也是文化人所以我要問你一個是我自己很喜歡的節目你有沒有看過一個電視選秀節目叫大嘻哈時代我知道曾經在金鐘獎得獎是那你有沒有聽過裡面的幾個嘻哈的創作"},{"start":534.273,"end":534.293,"text":"請說說看"},{"start":557.413,"end":574.296,"text":"努力很久的這些嘻哈創作者他開始有了他第一個舞台受到更多的關注後續也出了專輯甚至開始到其他的國家海外去演出其中呢這個這個第一季的第二季的冠軍阿夸面"},{"start":574.997,"end":590.54,"text":"他後面也出了專輯也開了專場在Legacy World去聽那他就是著名的是使用全台語來創作即像是紅宮少年天幾首歌網路的點閱率都非常高當中也有的客語的其他創作者牙皮"},{"start":591.121,"end":594.242,"text":"我們課委會也有來跟他合作他這首歌就是以我們客家的苗栗的一個慶典叫做來做創作內容所以這個我覺得非常的好那大嘻哈時代是不是有繼續的要來做第三季來跟我們文化部"},{"start":608.666,"end":609.366,"text":"大西亞真的是一個非常值得推廣的"},{"start":628.831,"end":652.125,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"153737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d54483dad14e74f1d12248f66a23a11b53ee56b966b91e1130a0e7bbdf4b47cc755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:35:13 - 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健康的外交 Taiwan can help"},{"start":208.2,"end":224.545,"text":"那麼現在台灣是不是能夠展現金融外交的一面總裁對於過去我的詢答到最近整個國際社會的狀況您的看法會不會變得更為積極一些謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":226.225,"end":253.473,"text":"當然就是說委員也跟那個外交部提出這樣的一個質詢那剛剛你也講就是說外交部也會請就是說財政部啦中央銀行啦這相關的部會來共同來看看怎麼來進行這個呢中央銀行在這一方面如果說政府的態度是怎麼樣那中央銀行當然是義不容辭就是說一定會配合這是第一點"},{"start":254.273,"end":259.737,"text":"第二點剛剛那個委員提到了就是說美國現在是美國的態度美國的態度是不是積極的來支持台灣來加入這樣子剛剛你也提到了就是說是講到董事會的問題美國的美國還有這些的那個美國日本英國這些他的董事會他要"},{"start":284.133,"end":304.333,"text":"他要兩個關口,事實上委員上一次質詢我們的時候,我們就是要密切去注意他所以他整個程序說實在我們都知道,不只是說是董事會他另外一個除了董事會之外,他還有一個理事會而且那個理事會要190個理事會的國家"},{"start":308.456,"end":328.175,"text":"要這個要三分之二要三分之二投票所以我的意思不是說說那就是很困難不是我的意思就是說我們要了解他的程序是什麼對不對那我們如果說政府是在積極在中央銀行財政部和相關的部位呢一定會配合的"},{"start":330.757,"end":346.309,"text":"總裁我給你一個我所找到的數據跟資料啦那我不知道說是我這邊找的資料有誤或是總裁您剛的答覆喔不是那麼的精確就是我知道有董事會有理事會但是理事會的投票並不是一國一票他是在INF的"},{"start":347.91,"end":349.151,"text":"美國的態度非常的重要但是我們不用爭取到所有他不是"},{"start":366.307,"end":366.488,"text":"總裁給予建議"},{"start":384.224,"end":384.244,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":411.01,"end":413.655,"text":"下一位質詢請廖先祥 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Innovation Board就是國防創新委員會我想請教部長有沒有針對這個部分從上而下從戰略到戰術的執行部分有沒有相關的計畫未來都有做相關的處置我再問一下"},{"start":76.802,"end":89.359,"text":"針對DIB的部分它其實是美國國防部針對未來科技運用它的一個臨時性的組織它網絡民間的人士和軍方專業的人士我們也都會有這樣子的規劃"},{"start":90.339,"end":115.896,"text":"因為他這個臨時性的組織到現在已經好幾年了那包含商業界學術界生物化學科技還有包含我們國防安全產業鏈都納入他裡面討論包含前Google的CEO這個史密特這些重要的科技巨頭全部都可以直接進來然後去跟國防安全相關的產業來進行對話我們來看一下來第三頁"},{"start":119.644,"end":138.777,"text":"現在我們要面臨的中國威脅我們必須要用更快速的方式更創新的方式更致命的方式我為什麼把三大階段把它放在上面就是希望從教育開始就能夠讓這一個不同產業界的人能夠進入那我想大家應該很熟悉Hacking for Defense的這種相關的課程"},{"start":139.637,"end":153.789,"text":"主要是類似用創新管道用Book Camp的方式去密集課程來去培養對國防安全有意義的學生這個學生他可能不見得他是國防專業的可能跟顧部長一樣過去可能是法律專業"},{"start":154.77,"end":160.734,"text":"美國的安全挑戰是分階段的在2000年到2010年底的這個階段主要是防恐戰爭那特別是要因應沙漠的地形"},{"start":182.87,"end":183.531,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":205.672,"end":205.752,"text":"：陳冠廷"},{"start":233.323,"end":258.893,"text":"如果美國這個其實他並不太需要說所謂用這個不對策戰爭因為他不管是在任何陸海空不對策戰爭裡面他都是大概是國防安全領域裡面最強的霸主但是他們都還願意去嘗試用新的管道從教育到加速到合作到協作讓每一個不同產業界的人都能夠產業進入到這個市場裡面我認為這是我們必須要正視的"},{"start":259.973,"end":279.95,"text":"剛才幾位國民黨的立法委員不斷地在針對這一些美國的國防的供應商來台灣大家都好像非常的忌憚說好像我們講的這個就是跟軍火商有關我們就非常的擔心我們就非常的害怕就這個都必須要三尖其口最好是不要發表任何的意見最好是跟這些國防產業連都沒有關係最好我認為這是錯誤的"},{"start":281.371,"end":308.474,"text":"不要把這些美國的國防產業當成是怎麼會變成是我們國安上面這是我們最重要的供應商之一然後我們把他講的好像要跟他劃清界限一樣並不是這樣子他們也在美國的國防產業裡面扮演重要的角色啊我們同時也需要這些重要的武器設備系統後勤啊我們怎麼可以把他們好像說最好是不要見最好是不要看到最好新聞不要講到好像他們來的時候我們就是好像是我們跟他採買就好像出現什麼狀況一樣"},{"start":309.875,"end":334.724,"text":"這是不對的沒有一個國家需要安全設備需要國防戰略的資產像我們一樣的我們必須要面對是中國的挑戰我們自己一個人沒有辦法去面對必須要跟我們其他國家合作嘛包含日本包含菲律賓包含美國這些國防產業鏈我們必須要進入而且不必害怕說我們要進入這些產業鏈不僅是對方的市場能夠進來我方的市場我方的市場也可以進入對方的市場阿"},{"start":335.86,"end":358.262,"text":"臺中也好或者是我們中南部有這麼多我這個相關機密機械的零件的製造商怎麼會不能夠參加呢所以我必須講到剛才我們提到這三大階段其實這些階段性任務裡面包含教育裡面都可以歡迎我們的產業鏈的這些重要的企業的這些供應商進駐他還知道說現在的國防產業裡面他們缺少什麼樣的狀況缺少什麼樣的設備他們才可以進入這個產業鏈嗎"},{"start":359.443,"end":377.253,"text":"所以我們說用快速的方式用創新的方式來去加入我們這樣的產業的這個國防產業的這個更加蓬勃我認為這是有必要的那部長我想剛剛講這麼多我是希望說部長可以畢竟是文人部長他不見得是要用過去的思維"},{"start":378.51,"end":397.9,"text":"您覺得接下來有沒有辦法讓更多不同的業界的人士也不見得是只有跟國防相關人士進入我們的國防體系跟委員報告現在的國防工業它有一個比較大幅的一個變化是過去都是幾大軍火工業商"},{"start":398.24,"end":422.738,"text":"但事實上現在因為這個AI的技術發展的結果很多矽谷的他已經加入了這個國防產業鏈的一部分那所以我們在這一塊不管是在我當任國安會期間或到國防部我想我們當時發想在成立DIU的這個時候的目的就是在引進這些相對於他們已經"},{"start":425.66,"end":447.191,"text":"已經成熟而且甚至具有實戰經驗的這些屬於AI的這些系統或者是這些相關的這些技術然後導入之後我們能夠快速的符合我們的這個作戰的一個需求這個部分是我們現在設置DIU的一個目的這樣子"},{"start":447.811,"end":470.561,"text":"謝謝部長那我們來談一下這個另外一個非常重要的就是無人機跟軍工產業的部分特別是在我們的民雄航太園區那我想民雄航太園區裡面有中科院的航太及無人機園區那還會規劃西側的這個產業園區那之前我們也一再的跟之前的前任的院長跟部長來去詢問說有沒有辦法可以協助我們西側產業園區的規劃"},{"start":473.008,"end":497.052,"text":"我認為就如同我們剛才講到的這一個三大階段裡面的加速加速器就是把創新管道能夠提供實驗室資源設備資源等等讓這些加速原型產品的開發核心技術的驗證所以過去在美國是有把一些先進的這一個包含這一個火箭推動的實驗室是有讓一些民間的企業跟國防產業這樣的企業可以去租用的"},{"start":497.572,"end":498.032,"text":"民運雄航太園區的西側基地是屬於"},{"start":513.277,"end":535.242,"text":"就是要引入這個民間的包括這個相關的這些不管是航太或無人機的相關研發的產製的工作那再結合我們東側的中科院園區的研發試驗的能量然後再結合經濟部的想像的亞創中心的創新研發一組的無人機的測試場我們來共同打造嘉義無人機的一個"},{"start":536.002,"end":536.262,"text":"：陳冠廷"}]}},{"id":"153735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153735","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b6a8be15224f49cc79f99d17e212a418ee56b966b91e1130d43161210f0379b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:29:55 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11:40:02","影片長度":"00:10:07","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:29:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:40:02+08:00","duration":607,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時30分）謝謝主席。請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。部長，今天我們要討論的主題是關於廢棄物處理的主題，這當然是環境部一個非常非常重要的業務，其實也是影響很多一般人的生活非常非常巨大的業務。其實我們常常會在很多新聞上面看到在廢棄處理裡面有很多亂象，包括很多違法棄置，倒在農田裡，也包括剛剛廖委員講的新北棧仔場的問題，沒有錯，新北棧仔場一直以來一個很大的問題，是因為地方政府對於合法廠商跟合法的土地取得不夠積極，所以才會造成一個非常非常大的問題，讓很多業者走在合法跟非法之間的模糊地帶，產生巨大的棧仔場的狀況，甚至我們看到很多新北市的廢棄物沿著台61線往中南部不斷傾倒跟運送，這是我之前一直追蹤的事情。所以我說，在廢棄物問題裡面，我們會看到很多表層的現象，可是實質上真正根源的問題，我覺得這是現在環境部必須要面對跟必須解決的問題。今天環境部說要開始推動資源循環促進法，我覺得這很好，尤其是它有一個二法合一的概念，把過去的廢棄物清理法跟資源回收再利用法二法合一，來去處理，但我覺得還是必須先回到我們整體在廢棄物治理上面有幾個最大的根本問題。","我們現在來看臺灣廢棄物處理，我覺得有四個非常非常根源的問題，第一個，目前我們促進產源發展、資源循環的模式的政策工具，其實非常非常不足，我們雖然喊出循環經濟這樣子的政策目標，可是實際上政策工具是不足的。第二件事情是，應該是環境部，不是環保署，環境部和其他部會在廢棄物協調的介面不夠清楚。第三個，廢棄物處理的量能不足，包括後端去化的管道受阻，這個問題大家談很多。再來一個是再利用產品確實現在很多是沒有市場的，所以造成很多是假再利用真棄置的問題。在這裡面，很多是我們現在看到表層問題以下，而實質發生的狀況，實質發生的根源問題，會在這些地方，所以如果我們現在要來檢視接下來環境部想要推動的資源循環促進法到底有沒有效、到底規劃得好不好、設計得好不好，我問的重點就是在這幾個最重要的問題上面，能不能拿得出具體的法規工具，放到我們的資源循環促進法裡面，來克服這些問題？所以部長，我想跟你請教，第一個，我們談到資源循環模式的政策工具不足，現在在我們的資源循環促進法裡面，有哪些工具可以處理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我看了初步的法令第一百三十二條，我們還沒有預告，但是我發現有幾個問題，第一個是非常難懂，所以各個利害團體都有不一樣的聲音跟意見，而且我也問了署長我們跟經濟部怎麼分工，其實過去還是用環保署的這個思維，我的確鼓勵我的同仁說，我們是環境部，我們是政策主管機關，我們應該扛下來，我鼓勵說，我們的機關雖然是資源循環署，但是我們做的應該是循環經濟的事情，所以我們把我們的目標稍微擴大一點，我要求他們，不管這個行業所有上下游的關係，我們都要把他們聚在一起，重新再看一次這個法令，然後才能解決你說的問題。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你今天講的部分，有部分我同意，當然可以跟部長繼續討論，我認為環境部想要把相關的工作一肩扛起來，這個想法是好的，可是我覺得也必須看得到，環境部在自己的部會權責上面，還是恐怕會有自己遇到的侷限，這還是在部會權責切分上面遇到的侷限。其實之前我一直跟賴署長強調，我認為今天完全要靠環境部自己一個部門，尤其是接下來的資源循環署，搞定這整個事情，難度是非常非常高的、非常非常高的，因為談到循環經濟，沒有錯，該做循環經濟，可是你就是在很多工作上，你沒有辦法取代經濟部，做為一個產業推動單位的角色，你就是很難取代內政部在建築業上面一開始產業政策規劃的角色，這件事情你就是需要它的大力協助，雖然我知道部長可能是不希望環境部再像過去一樣只是末端管制，可是對不起，他們這些角色，環境部恐怕一時半刻之間就是很難直接去取代，所以環境部勢必要去規劃出一個協調其他部會的介面，尤其是對經濟部，對內政部，對農業部，因為也包括農業廢棄物的處理，這幾個相關部會合作、工作的介面，我覺得這件事情很重要，當然在你們之前提出來的草案裡面，你們有把目的事業主管機關的權責放到法規裡面，這個我們有看到，我覺得值得鼓勵，可是工作協調的介面，接下來我認為是這整套體系能夠運作得起來的關鍵，可是現在在法裡面有這樣的設計嗎？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：目前是有的。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有。目前我們有一個促進管理會，同時會有一個計畫，報行政院來核定。"],["彭部長啓明：所以我會扛下來這個事情，就是說，委員提到的，我非常贊成。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，我要說，促進管理會當然是有這個用意，可是我們都知道，促進管理會的設計跟組成，其實大部分是希望能夠廣納各方面意見，包括專家、學者、利害相關方的意見，它的功能主要是廣納意見，可是接下來你們在跨部會上面是有非常非常大量的工作協調，你需要很大量的幕僚能量，這件事情反倒跟促進管理委員會的角色之間不是這麼一致。我覺得這事情環境部應該再回去討論，因為這個委員會的做法是廣納意見，廣納專業上面大家建議的idea，這事情我不反對，可是你實際上是有一大堆工作協調的事情，我們之前有跟環境部提出，我認為在這個法裡面應該要有一個跨部會協調工作的辦公室，或者是委員會，是主要以執行跟協調任務為主的部分，要有這樣的設計，當然這也要其他部會願意同意，可是我還是希望能夠把這個想法請部長再帶回去研議，一個月的時間裡面答復我。因為這個介面是很複雜的，之前為什麼我們有這麼多的工作做不好？坦白說，這個做得不好，我也不完全怪賴署長，我也不完全怪環境部，因為真的有很多是其他部會配合不夠的問題，這個大家都心知肚明，也包括地方政府配合不夠的問題，所以才會有我剛剛說的棧仔場的問題產生。我現在說的是，我覺得應該在這個法裡面把工作介面、協調介面規劃清楚，這是整套體系能不能運轉出來的關鍵。部長，沒有問題吧？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。你說到這個核心，我們預告的時間是到年底，我希望再給我半年的時間把整個問題釐清，綜整完之後，我們再送出草案，希望明年送到大院來審查。"],["洪委員申翰：最後，我要跟部長提醒，我們在這裡面還非常非常關注的一個問題是，其實過去臺灣一直以來有所謂的回收體系和回收網絡，照理來說，回收體系跟回收網絡在城市裡面扮演一個非常非常重要的角色，應該也是我們在資源循環上面的關鍵人物跟關鍵角色，可是我們過去透過回收基金，透過基管會的一些經濟模式的運轉，是有一些突破，可是這幾年我們也看到運轉起來越來越辛苦，所以有很多再利用業者、大盤商、中盤商，甚至到最基層的拾荒者，其實在這幾年工作都遇到非常非常大的困難，生計上都遇到非常大的困難，我秀出這張照片，在我們城市裡面，應該常常看到這樣的景象，他們工作非常非常辛苦，可是收入非常非常微薄。我在這邊想跟部長提出一個邀請，部長，願不願意跟我一起去，我們來體驗一下拾荒資收者他們的工作、他們的一天？部長，願不願意？不一定要一天，但我們一起來體驗看看。從這些在城市裡拾荒者的角度來看，到底我們的回收相關工作是怎麼運轉的？到底遇到什麼問題，遇到什麼困境？為什麼他們離尊嚴勞動這麼遙遠？部長，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我願意，而且我會帶我們的署長一起去參加。"],["洪委員申翰：基管會要一起？大家都一起來。","我覺得我們要從基層的視角，第一線的視角，最底層的視角來看我們的回收體系到底出了什麼問題。謝謝部長今天同意，我們今天來規劃，我們會來跟部長邀請。謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪申翰委員。","現在處理臨時提案。總共1案，請宣讀。","全國各縣市之大型垃圾資源回收（焚化）廠為鄰避設施，各地方政府基於敦親睦鄰，參考環境部所訂之「垃圾資源回收（焚化）廠營運階段提供回饋金要點」第4點規定，編列焚化每噸廢棄物編列新臺幣（下同）200元回饋金。雖然該回饋金要點規定已有彈性，供地方政府可以實務需求調整。惟該回饋金要點屬行政規則，對地方政府仍有一定影響性，且多數縣市回饋金基準為200元/噸，考量該要點為83年公告實施迄今已逾30年，又各縣市焚化廠進廠費亦逐年提升，顯見要點實有修正必要，以符合時宜。","爰建請環境部於3個月內會商相關單位及各縣市完成修訂該回饋要點。","提案人：黃秀芳　　王正旭　　林月琴　　廖偉翔"],["主席：請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["顏署長旭明：沒有意見。"],["主席：好，行政單位沒有意見，照案通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員不在。","接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","接下來請黃捷委員、黃捷委員、黃捷委員不在。","接下來請伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員、伍麗華委員不在。","接下來請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時41分）","繼續開會（11時46分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.15596875,"end":10.915343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.450343750000002,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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廢棄物處理的量能不足包括後端去化的管道受阻 這大家談很多再來一個是再利用的產品確實現在很多是沒有市場的所以造成很多是假再利用真氣質的這個問題我認為這裡面是很多是我們現在看到表層問題以下實質發生的狀況實質發生的根源的問題會在這些地方所以如果我們現在來檢視接下來環境部想要推動的資源循環促進法"},{"start":185.501,"end":214.677,"text":"到底有沒有效到底規劃的好不好設計的好不好我認為重點就會是在這幾個最重要的問題上面有沒有拿得出具體的法規工具放到我們的資源循環促進法裡面來去克服這些問題所以部長我現在想跟你請教就你覺得以第一個我們談到資源循環模式的政策工具不足現在在我們的資源循環促進法裡面有哪些工具可以處理"},{"start":216.181,"end":230.748,"text":"報告委員其實我看了他們的法令132條初步的法令我們還沒有預告但是我是發現說第一個是非常難懂所以各個利害團體都有不一樣的聲音跟意見"},{"start":231.568,"end":251.13,"text":"所以其實目前而且我也問了署長說我們跟經濟部這邊怎麼分工其實過去還是環保署的這個思維那我的確很鼓勵我們同仁說我們應該環境部我們他們做的我們其實我們是政策主管機關我們應該扛下來所以其實我們鼓勵說我們"},{"start":253.252,"end":270.018,"text":"雖然是機關選手但是我們做的應該是循環經濟的事情所以我們把我們的目標稍微擴大一點所以現在呢我的確是要他們能夠把這個所謂的不管這個行業所有的這個上下游的關係都要把它湊齊在一起重新再看一次這個法令然後才能解決你說的問題"},{"start":271.198,"end":297.427,"text":"部長你今天講的部分我有部分我同意當然可以跟部長繼續討論我認為環境部想要把這相關的工作一肩扛起來我認為這個想法是好的可是我覺得也必須看得到環境部在自己的部會權責上面還是恐怕會有自己遇到的局限這還是在部會權責上面切分上面遇到的局限所以我其實之前也一直跟賴署長強調"},{"start":300.161,"end":323.013,"text":"我認為今天完全要單靠環境部自己一個部門尤其是接下來的這個資源循環署搞定這整個事情我認為難度是非常非常高的因為談到循環經濟沒有錯該做循環經濟可是你就是有很多工作你沒有辦法取代經濟部作為一個產業推動單位的角色啊"},{"start":324.793,"end":340.895,"text":"你就是很難取代內政部在建築業上面很多從一開始產業政策規劃的角色這件事情你就是需要他們大力的協助你雖然我知道部長可能是不希望環境部再像過去只是末端管制"},{"start":341.676,"end":358.201,"text":"可是他們這些角色對不起環境部恐怕一時半刻之間就是很難直接的去取代所以環境部勢必要去規劃出一個怎麼來去協調其他部會尤其是經濟部尤其是內政部包括農業部因為也包括農業廢棄物這幾個相關部會"},{"start":360.842,"end":388.013,"text":"的合作工作的界面我覺得這件事情很重要當然我們現在在你們看到之前提出來的草案的版本裡面你們有把目的世界主管機關的權責有放到法規裡面這我們有看到我覺得值得鼓勵可是工作協調的界面接下來我認為是這整套體系能不能運作的起來的關鍵可是現在在法裡面有這樣的設計嗎部長目前是有的有那目前就是我們有一個是促進管理會那同時會有一個計畫那會報行人來核定"},{"start":390.359,"end":406.593,"text":"所以我會扛下來這個事情就是說委員提到的我非常的贊成蘇長蘇長我要說處理管理會當然有這個用意可是我們都知道處理管理會以處理管理會的設計跟組成其實大部分是希望能夠廣納各方面包括專家學者利害相關方的意見"},{"start":408.049,"end":423.859,"text":"他的功能主要是廣納意見可是接下來你跟跨部會上面是有非常非常大量的工作協調你是需要很大量的幕僚能量這件事情反倒跟促進這個管理委員會的角色之間是不是這麼"},{"start":425.202,"end":450.633,"text":"一致我認為這事情環保環境部應該再回去討論因為這個委員會的做法是廣納意見廣納專業上面大家可以建議的idea這事情我不反對可是你實際上面是有一大堆的工作協調的事情這是為什麼我們之前有跟環境部提出我認為其實應該在這法裡面要有一個跨部會的協調的工作的辦公室或者是委員會是主要以執行為"},{"start":451.834,"end":452.334,"text":"我完全怪﹖"},{"start":471.75,"end":471.79,"text":"主席"},{"start":492.29,"end":495.033,"text":"最後我要跟部長提醒其實我們在這裡面還非常非常關注的一個問題是"},{"start":511.152,"end":535.847,"text":"其實過去台灣一直以來有我們所謂的回收體系跟回收網絡照理來說回收體系跟回收網絡在城市裡面它扮演一個非常非常重要的角色其實它應該也是我們在資源循環上面的關鍵人物跟關鍵角色可是這幾年我們過去透過回收基金透過基管會的一些經濟模式的運轉是有一些突破可是這幾年我們也看到"},{"start":536.823,"end":541.125,"text":"我這邊秀出這個照片 這在我們城市裡面應該是常常看到的照片他們工作非常非常辛苦可是收入非常非常微薄我在這邊想跟部長提出一個邀請部長願不願意跟我一起去"},{"start":564.136,"end":591.389,"text":"我們來體驗一下實荒之收者他們的工作他們的一天部長願不願意不願意一天啦但我們一起來體驗看看大家就知道從這些在城市裡面的實荒者的角度到底我們的回收相關的工作是怎麼運轉的到底遇到什麼問題遇到什麼困境為什麼他們離尊嚴勞動這麼遙遠部長可不可以嗎我願意而且我會帶我們的署長一起去參加機管會要一起喔大家都一起來齁"},{"start":592.449,"end":603.288,"text":"我覺得我們要從基層的視角第一線的視角最底層的視角來看我們的回收體系到底出了什麼問題謝謝部長今天同意我們今天來規劃我們會來跟部長邀請謝謝沒問題謝謝好謝謝洪申翰委員"}]}},{"id":"153734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153734","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d56f5b8af0e858802e2248f66a23a11b53ee56b966b91e113054c550af5f56c1715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:23:53 - 11:34:58","影片長度":"00:11:05","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:23:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:34:58+08:00","duration":665,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":741,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時24分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可不可以邀請楊總裁？"],["主席：好，請楊總裁。"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁，你好。"],["楊總裁金龍：羅委員早。"],["羅委員明才：你現在心情還好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：都好啊！"],["羅委員明才：看你這幾年來的表現，就和臺幣對美元的匯率一樣，很穩定。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的匯率是很穩定啦！對，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：不管環境怎麼變化，你大概都會像小說中的至理名言「他強由他強，清風拂山崗，他恨任他恨，明月照大江。」以前彭淮南是柳樹理論，楊金龍是有一個新的平衡理論，就是不會受環境影響，而且心裡有定見。所以新臺幣對美元的匯率，看起來大概都是持平的，就在你設想的區間，在總裁的防線左右兩邊。貶到最低時大概是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們最低好像就是到三十二點六七餘元吧！"],["羅委員明才：所以這是一條線。那強的時候呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們強的時候也是到二十七點六餘元的樣子。"],["羅委員明才：27元大概是彭淮南的防線，這二、三十年來，故事不斷在那邊重複演出。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我要向委員報告，確實，匯率本身就是有一個……"],["羅委員明才：有好有壞啦！不過基本上本席還是讚佩啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝啦！委員的誇獎，我們真的很受用。"],["羅委員明才：也謝謝央行啦！每年都繳了很多錢給國庫。去年繳多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝啦！我們去年繳1,850億元左右。"],["羅委員明才：今年呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：今年我們的預算因為美國的利率提高，所以我們繳了2,000億元，不過我……"],["羅委員明才：增加了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們有增加。"],["羅委員明才：其實應該不只啦！從央行的外匯存底比重來看的話，現在美元的部位有沒有增加？是六成多嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，我們美元的部位也是時常在檢討。第二個，美元的部位和其他幣別的部位都是上上下下，不過它的上上下下和……"],["羅委員明才：是。有沒有六成多？如果和去年比起來，大概……"],["楊總裁金龍：大概差不多啦！變化不會很大。"],["羅委員明才：日圓的部分，5年前你們有沒有減持？"],["楊總裁金龍：有。向委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：減持你們就賺到了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！我們日幣的部位……"],["羅委員明才：日幣大概算是雜幣的項目，是不是？因為主要都是美元、歐元。人民幣的部分，你們現在比重大概有多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們人民幣的比重也不高。"],["羅委員明才：也不高啦！大概2%左右。"],["楊總裁金龍：我的記憶力稍微有點……不高啦！主要還是美元，其他的加起來還是……"],["羅委員明才：記憶突然喪失，消失的暗室。因為日圓現在是歷史的低點，你們是否考慮大概在160元的時候大量買進？其實大家一直在問，奇怪！為什麼……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們外匯存底的……"],["羅委員明才：五千七百多億元。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們有外匯存底的manage管理準則，當然，第一個必須在適當的時間做調整。第二個，調整不能太頻繁。"],["羅委員明才：所以日圓的部分呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果調整太頻繁，市場會覺得中央銀行在市場speculation……"],["羅委員明才：總裁，現在和5年前比較，日圓在我們外匯存底的比重，大概下降百分之幾？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上從5年前到目前，大概都很低啦！5年前就已經調整了。"],["羅委員明才：恭喜啊！因為現在比重很低，你們會不會考慮在這個時刻調整，也捧場一下，多買一些日圓？因為現在民眾……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！這個部分我們也在調整。委員，基本上你對manage的準則滿有sense的。"],["羅委員明才：本席有自己的見解啦！謝謝總裁抬愛。如果是本席的話，現在就會多換一點日圓，這樣的做法對嗎？因為你一直稱讚我啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我想就個人的理財方式來說是可以的，但是……"],["羅委員明才：其實本席覺得分批買進也不錯，因為第一個，日本不會倒嘛！總裁，日本會不會倒？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是不會啦！"],["羅委員明才：第二個就是它已經是歷史新低，反正就是加減買啦！因為以前最高的時候，日圓兌美元大概是80元，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：所以相對的，現在的160元很便宜啊！還有一個好處，國人都很喜歡到日本遊玩，所以可以加減買，個人的部分可以比照央行，買一個小水庫、小水位，當你的小孩、家人去日本，例如阿公、阿媽就可以拿一些私房錢給孫子到日本用，這樣也不錯，這是個人理財的部分。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，對啦！"],["羅委員明才：另外，本席再繞回來經濟發展的問題，是不是可以請經濟部林次長一起上台？"],["主席：好，請林次長。"],["羅委員明才：請問一下總裁，臺灣會不會像日本一樣有失落的30年？還是要借鏡啦！事實上臺灣不一樣，因為臺灣有護國神山，也因為有護國神山挺住，包括它的產業鏈。請問次長，整個股市如果是一個櫥窗，電子因為它非常的亮麗，占我們經濟發展的比重是多少？"],["林次長全能：目前比重應該超過五成以上。"],["羅委員明才：所以臺灣的發展和日本是不一樣的，我們是靠50%的電子產業撐住。請問一下次長，現在會不會再多另外一隻腳，就是另外一個護國神山？AI有沒有可能產生效應？"],["林次長全能：這個部分是有很大的發展潛力，而且我們的供應鏈能力，也能在這個面向發揮更好的價值。"],["羅委員明才：對。本席有看到NVIDIA AI未來的發展，他們的供應廠商，60%、65%都是臺灣的生產鏈。"],["林次長全能：是的。"],["羅委員明才：本席也問過他們，因為這是滿核心的問題，他們在選擇廠商的vendor code時，主要是以臺灣為主，當然還有日本的少許公司。請問一下次長，臺灣和日本比較的話，臺灣的優勢在哪裡？"],["林次長全能：第一個，我們供應鏈聚落的能量比較健全。"],["羅委員明才：對。所以黃仁勳Jensen說要來臺灣設廠，你們的態度是否歡迎？"],["林次長全能：當然，我們非常歡迎這樣的國際大廠到臺灣，和我們的供應鏈結合，創造更高的價值。"],["羅委員明才：是，謝謝。這真的是臺灣人的驕傲，以後不是只有張忠謀。我們希望能多出幾個張忠謀、黃仁勳，各方面的人才要多一點嘛！是不是？"],["林次長全能：是的。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，你覺得呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員說的沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：那我要提醒總裁，現在金管會已經在推動虛擬資產的專法，要開始管理了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["羅委員明才：我們看到香港、新加坡，現在很多地方的資金都從那裡撤退了，因為他們管理趨於嚴格，所以希望總裁重視，這一塊也許是另外一隻腳，這是關於理財的部分。因為我們的金融占GDP的產值不到6%，在海外的部分，新加坡、香港都超過百分之十幾，所以要拜託你們，在金融管制方面，請總裁準備好，我們希望未來可以取代香港、新加坡，讓臺灣成為大家驕傲的亞洲營運理財中心，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：考不考慮以後買比特幣？本席在6,000元的時候和你說過，現在已經7萬元了，聽說還會漲到10萬元。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有可能把虛擬資產納入外匯存底的項目？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會注意它啦！但是目前還沒有這樣的考慮。"],["羅委員明才：你們的數位貨幣什麼時候提出？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還是持續在進行。"],["羅委員明才：已經開始在做了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們有階段性的計畫，都安排的很好，謝謝你。"],["羅委員明才：什麼時候會亮相，並且對外公布？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會報告進度。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：非常感謝羅明才召委，也請楊總裁、林次長回座，謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員明才）：下一位請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0603437500000001,"end":4.840343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.29909375,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.754718750000002,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.805343750000002,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.51409375,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.285968750000002,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.11284375,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.26034375,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.31409375,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.25909375,"end":25.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.17034375,"end":27.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.60909375,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.824093750000003,"end":33.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.439093750000005,"end":35.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.63284375,"end":38.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.84346875,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.885343750000004,"end":42.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.85971875,"end":43.315343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.33221875,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.812843750000006,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.28096875,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.65221875,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.75346875,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.799718750000004,"end":53.119718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.05221875,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.119718750000004,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.35596875,"end":56.579093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.798468750000005,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.970968750000004,"end":71.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.65784375,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.61471875000001,"end":72.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.50909375,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.74909375,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.59221875,"end":82.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.89596875000001,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.85346875,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.03909375,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.84471875,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.26596875,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.37096875,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.95721875000001,"end":94.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.02471875,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.72034375000001,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.42409375000001,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.82909375000001,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.78659375000001,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.95909375000001,"end":115.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.14034375000001,"end":110.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00",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你的調整就是說不能太頻繁"},{"start":265.521,"end":282.762,"text":"對所以日圓的部分你的調整如果說太頻繁的時候呢人家市場會覺得就是說中央銀行在市場所以現在跟5年前比日圓的比重我們外匯整體的比重下降大概幾%"},{"start":286.925,"end":303.012,"text":"從5年前大概就到目前都很低啦5年前就已經調整了那恭喜啊你現在很低喔你會考慮在這個時刻那調整一下也捧場一下多買一些日圓這個就是說我們在調整對啦那個委員的這個就是說"},{"start":310.095,"end":310.115,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":340.496,"end":354.649,"text":"總裁,日本會不會倒?應該是不會啦所以日本不會倒第二個就是歷史的新低反正就是加減賣加減換因為以前最高的時候日圓對美的大概80塊"},{"start":356.491,"end":373.824,"text":"對,沒有錯所以你現在相對的一百六十塊很便宜那還有一個好處就是國人都很喜歡去日本去遊玩你就是部分當作你個人的好像央行一樣比照的一個小水庫"},{"start":374.665,"end":374.945,"text":"請問一下總裁"},{"start":403.086,"end":432.646,"text":"台灣大家很想說會不會是像日本一樣失落的30年借鏡那事實上台灣不一樣我們台灣有護國神山我們台灣因為這樣護國神山挺住他的產業鏈請問這個次長整個股市如果是一個櫥窗電子占我們經濟發展的比重因為他非常的亮麗大概比重有多少"},{"start":434.082,"end":455.392,"text":"我想目前的比重應該有超過五成以上五成所以台灣的發展事實上跟日本是不一樣我們是靠50%電子方面撐在那個地方現在請問一下次長會不會再多另外一隻腳另外一個護國神山AI有沒有可能產生"},{"start":457.417,"end":476.665,"text":"我想這個部分是有很大的一個這個發展的潛力而且我們的這個供應鏈的能力也可以在這個面向來發揮更好的價值對我看到NVIDIA他AI未來的發展的一些供應廠商但百分之六十六十五都是台灣的生產鏈"},{"start":478.886,"end":499.821,"text":"因為我有問他,我問他說因為這蠻核心的他們在選擇就是廠商的vendor code裡面最重要他以台灣為主當然還有日本少許那請問一下次長台灣跟日本比較的話台灣的優勢在哪裡第一個我們的供應鏈的一個這個聚落的能量比較健全"},{"start":502.589,"end":530.747,"text":"所以黃仁勳先生他說要來台灣設廠你的態度歡不歡迎當然我們是非常非常歡迎這樣的一個國際的大廠到台灣來然後跟我們的供應鏈結合創造更高的價值是謝謝這個真的是台灣人的驕傲以後不是只有張宗謀我們希望多出幾個張宗謀黃仁勳各方面多一點嘛"},{"start":531.792,"end":532.533,"text":"委員說的沒有錯啊"},{"start":538.854,"end":567.05,"text":"那你要按那個聲音委員說的沒有錯那我要提醒總裁還有一個現在金管會已經在推動虛擬資產的專法要開始管理了我們看到香港新加坡很多地方現在的資金都撤退因為他們管理區域嚴格希望總裁這一塊"},{"start":568.089,"end":587.232,"text":"也許是另外一個理財的另外一個一隻腳會出現因為我們金融相對GDP產值就不到6%在海外的部分新加坡香港都超過十幾%所以拜託在金融管制方面"},{"start":589.667,"end":605.374,"text":"請總裁要準備好我們希望台灣未來的發展是可以取代香港取代新加坡讓台灣成為世界上大家驕傲的亞洲營運理財中心好不好"},{"start":609.122,"end":634.509,"text":"謝謝委員的指教 謝謝可以嗎謝謝考不考慮以後買比特幣我6千塊跟你講過現在已經7萬了聽說還會漲到10萬謝謝 謝謝有沒有可能把虛擬資產納入外匯全體的項目到目前為止我們會注意它但是目前都還沒有這樣的一個考慮的那你的數字貨幣什麼時候提出"},{"start":635.975,"end":659.624,"text":"我們還是持續在進行已經開始在做了嗎我們都有階段性我們都安排得很好這個階段什麼時候會亮相對外公布我們會報告我們的進度我們會報告我們的進度謝謝非常感謝羅明才召委也請楊總裁林次長回座謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153733","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5f444715619acce159dbbe5275cafb4dfee56b966b91e11307a999415d811f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:20:29 - 11:33:00","影片長度":"00:12:31","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:20:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:33:00+08:00","duration":751,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":469,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時20分）謝謝主席，有請李部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。自從上一次我們的詢答過後，直到最近這幾天，你一定還是持續接受到一些批判的聲音，這些批判的聲音從何而來？是因為文化部面對大是大非表現得似是而非。部長回應中正紀念堂該如何轉型的態度，彷彿對於何謂轉型正義絲毫沒有概念，文化部也好像沒有打算要承接任何促轉會移交的工作。促轉會在任務總結報告中花了一整個章節、58頁，討論中正紀念堂園區轉型的問題，所以我還是要請文化部不能視而不見。去年3月2號文化部就從促轉會的手中承接這個任務，進行專題報告，當時文化部就很明確地指出，「中正紀念堂整體規劃、配置與設計，係將領袖崇拜具現於實體空間，並透過空間象徵，強化個人威權形象，因此如何從威權崇拜的標記，轉變為彰顯民主價值的空間……」，這是文化部的任務、目標之一。","可是根據促轉會的任務總結報告第三部的第116頁，國防部早就在2021年表示，目前的三軍儀隊是依據當時主管機關──教育部的要求才派駐的，後來中正紀念堂改隸文化部，國防部仍舊依據主管機關的要求繼續派駐。換句話說，就這個觀點來看，有權有責撤離三軍儀隊的單位是文化部。部長，促轉會在總結報告中所說的是不是事實？"],["李部長遠：完全是事實。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，在上一次的詢答中，部長說三軍儀隊不應該在政權轉移中被移來移去，本席相當認同你的說法，因為三軍儀隊移出去之後就不該再被移回來，三軍儀隊當然也不該被馬戲團化。我們看一下歷史文件就知道，在馬英九的任期內，他是怎麼樣羞辱三軍儀隊。請部長看看這兩張2009年的公文，第一張是中正紀念堂管理處發給當時的主管機關──教育部，第二張是教育部依據中正紀念堂管理處的請求，發給國防部。中正紀念堂管理處請求了什麼？他們當時要求恢復三軍儀隊，理由不是什麼儀式不儀式，是要提振觀光，協助回復經濟景氣。怎麼當時的三軍儀隊是為了觀光，現在三軍儀隊就是為了儀式？請問部長，這到底是對歷史的無知，還是對國人的欺騙？"],["李部長遠：這個理由我是第一次聽到，用觀光的理由讓儀隊再回來，我覺得更是羞辱了。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["李部長遠：因為你就必須承認你是對他的敬意所以有儀隊，還是要去除威權把它撤掉，這兩個答案清清楚楚，用觀光就表示這個問題很敏感，它只能用觀光的理由讓儀隊又回去，我倒希望未來能夠處理得很明快又很清楚。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，在上一次的詢答中，因為部長你說現在的國防部已經不堅持一定要派駐三軍儀隊在中正紀念堂，所以本席是不是可以這樣理解，目前的三軍儀隊向已經死了半個世紀的獨裁者所進行的崇拜行為，現在已經是文化部的責任？"],["李部長遠：我可能在上一次回答委員的時候，講了太多很浪漫的，像鴿子啊！什麼、什麼，事實上，我有一句話很重要，就是在我自己的家族，我的4個舅舅有3個是白色恐怖的，所以最近有很多NGO覺得我好像不認得這件事情，他們寫了很多信給我一直講，其實我必須再講一次，我對於中正紀念堂的威權象徵是完全承認的，然後我對於去威權、轉型正義也是完全支持的，所以國防部如果不堅持的話，再來的事情我們會跟國防部來溝通。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["李部長遠：這件事情必然是這樣，因為我們必須跟國防部溝通，甚至於中正紀念堂的這個高度是要到行政院、甚至是總統的，但是我必須發動這個溝通。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，好，所以最後還是向文化部呼籲啦！中正紀念堂轉型的理由其實很簡單，也如同部長您所說的，我覺得這就是互相尊重，沒有誰的歷史記憶比較偉大，也沒有誰的歷史記憶應該遭受羞辱跟打壓。有的人如果喜歡蔣介石，他在自家後院要擺蔣介石的銅像，自掏腰包請保全去看守，那是他個人的自由，可是如果有人要強迫全民一起用納稅人的錢來維護蔣介石的銅像，還要請三軍儀隊來看守，我們就必須堅決反對。","接下來進入今天的主題，根據國家語言發展法第五條，中央主責機關就是文化部，應該定期召開國家語言發展會議，要來研議、協調及推展國家語言發展事務。2021年文化部總共辦理了8場線上論壇，還有1場正式大會，在大會中文化部有承諾，針對臺語、馬祖語以及臺灣手語等欠缺明確專責機構的國家語言，文化部會來主責辦理這些工作，也就是說，針對臺語的推廣，其實我們並不需要成立一個像客委會或原民會這種層級的臺語事務委員會，因為文化部已經有相同量能來處理臺語的推廣，是這個意思，對不對？"],["李部長遠：我們現在已經把設置語言中心的條例送到行政院，等待立法院，所以我們會成立一個……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，語言發展中心。"],["李部長遠：語言發展中心的意思就是各種語言，但是因為文化部是負責臺語、馬祖語跟手語，那這個組織要怎麼編，我們已經大概有想法。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。今天的主題叫「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力」，背後想跟部長討論的是，我們發揮國際影響力不用捨近求遠，也不該忘記自己的根本，因為臺灣最豐沛的能量早就蘊含在我們的文化脈絡中。不過臺灣因為連續被殖民，而且資本主義在全球化的發展，所以我國文化的根本，也就是我們的國家語言，其實是一點一滴在流失當中，這是一項非常嚴肅的警訊。","當然英文大家都會聽都會講，差是差在那個字彙量，英文的文化當然是我們全球人類最習慣最熟悉的文化態樣，不過臺灣文化就不一樣，因為臺灣文化在全世界也只有臺灣人能夠詮釋到位，所以如果臺灣文化能夠像黑潮一樣湧向世界，讓世界認識臺灣，進而學習臺灣文化，我覺得這個就是讓臺灣在國際舞臺上充分展現文化軟實力，將來就會有機會獲得豐沛的果實。","我們覺得日本就是一個充分發揮文化軟實力很標竿的國家，日本用它自身的文化以及對它語言的重視，這是全世界有目共睹，日本所開創的IP跟各種文化內容已經不僅僅用潮流可以形容它，由日語以及日本文化所灌溉出來的，不管是漫畫、動畫、電影、小說或者是電玩的產品，如同全世界共同呼吸的空氣，陪伴每個小孩大人日常的生活。日本的亮眼成績好像是可望而不可及，可是我覺得不起步當然就永遠追不上，還好文化部已經有開始在做，不管是您剛剛的報告所提到的，培育臺語家庭計畫、強化影視臺語內容、國家語言本土動畫IP開發等等，或者是對臺語聲優、臺語配音師的培育，這都是文化部出錢出力的，我們看得出來是正在努力的現在進行式，可不可以請部長跟國人再一次地說明相關的具體規劃？"],["李部長遠：其實我自己本身也非常不喜歡把日本動畫配成臺語，最近我們自己有一部「八戒」，「八戒」賣得很好，它有臺語版跟多語版，多語裡面就是客家語，然後3種語言同時出去，發現各種語言的確有它自己的樂趣，票房也各自有擁有它的觀眾，我們會在未來的電影跟戲劇裡面表達我們的態度，這一點我可以做到。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，從你現在在努力的這幾個面向。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：不過我覺得臺語的推廣，剛剛很多委員對臺語瀕臨危險其實都很擔憂，所以這個部分真的還是請文化部多加強。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後30秒跟您探討一下，昨天我的辦公室有接到一通來電，是一個接受安寧療護的民眾打來的，他想要在有生之年去參加張學友的演唱會，可是苦於黃牛猖獗，所以他也買不到票，他後來其實是甘冒犯罪的風險，花加倍的金錢買到黃牛票。文創法的黃牛條款其實已經上路了，對於黃牛的掃蕩跟嚇阻，我們當然也持續滾動式的檢討中，我想要說的是，無論是演唱會或藝文活動，黃牛利用粉絲的喜愛來炒作，我覺得這個還是持續進行中，所以是不是有什麼樣的具體作為或檢討，再一次去遏阻黃牛的這種行徑？"],["李部長遠：在這一次張學友的演唱會，我覺得文化部展現了一個比較有效果的方法，就是先斷絕了兩萬多個假帳號，然後直接去跟警察局報案，有抓到了很多黃牛，然後在現場也發現有黃牛，就是說我們用幾個方式去杜絕黃牛，在這一次做得還算不錯。"],["林委員宜瑾：不過還要加強。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：因為這次你還抓得到黃牛，就表示黃牛還是一直在。"],["李部長遠：他的確很難抓，不過我們已經儘量抓了。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，再努力，因為昨天那個癌末病人這樣子打電話，其實我們心裡頭都滿難過的，我覺得這是一個現象，我們還要再加油，好不好？部長，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：部長請回。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：接下來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":2.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.22471875,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.185343750000001,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.73784375,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.84971875000002,"end":135.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.20409375,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.21659375000002,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.11096875,"end":165.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.69284375,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.24534375000002,"end":198.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.90284375000002,"end":204.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.89346875,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.06221875,"end":205.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.20534375000003,"end":211.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.71096875,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.77846875,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.81221875,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.96409375000002,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.98096875000002,"end":212.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.71784375000001,"end":221.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.71596875,"end":260.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.93534375,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.52596875,"end":293.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.46909375,"end":274.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.49971875,"end":300.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.60846875000004,"end":303.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.51096875,"end":311.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.47159375,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.96471875000003,"end":316.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.48784375,"end":401.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.36909375000005,"end":419.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.48846875000004,"end":429.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.23409375,"end":429.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.24221875,"end":440.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.68784375,"end":440.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.82284375,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.97471875,"end":588.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.6772187500001,"end":590.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.5503437500001,"end":594.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.6384687500001,"end":619.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.3940937500001,"end":621.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.57096875,"end":621.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.97596875,"end":631.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.32971875,"end":626.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.25284375,"end":638.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.06659375,"end":636.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.6147187500001,"end":638.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.01971875,"end":660.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.07534375,"end":694.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.07846875,"end":699.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.46159375,"end":705.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.9965937500001,"end":706.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.1315937500001,"end":706.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.3803437500001,"end":708.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.40096875,"end":717.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.8984687500001,"end":713.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.3203437500001,"end":713.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.18034375,"end":723.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.95159375,"end":726.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.5334687500001,"end":733.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.2547187499999,"end":728.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.24971875,"end":735.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.5234687500001,"end":749.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.82096875,"end":750.3272187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.389,"end":0.61,"text":"請召委質詢"},{"start":12.993,"end":39.153,"text":"相信自從上一次我們的詢答過後直到最近這幾天你一定還是持續接受到有一些批判的聲音那這些批判的聲音從何而來是因為文化部在面對大是大非表現的似是而非而部長回應中正紀念堂該如何轉型的態度彷彿是對於何謂轉型正義 絲毫沒有概念"},{"start":40.154,"end":48.556,"text":"文化部也好像沒有打算要承接任何促轉會移交的工作促轉會在任務總結報告中花了整整一整個章節58頁討論中正紀念堂園區轉型的問題所以我還是要請文化部不能視而不見去年3月2日文化部"},{"start":60.979,"end":79.437,"text":"就曾從促轉會的手中來承接這個任務進行專題報告當時文化部就很明確的指出中正紀念堂的整體規劃、配置跟設計就是要將領袖崇拜的具象化到實體空間來並透過空間象徵強化個人威權形象"},{"start":85.723,"end":102.593,"text":"因此就是說我們怎麼樣將中正紀念堂從這個威權崇拜的標記轉成彰顯民主價值的這個空間這是文化部的任務目標之一喔那可是好根據促轉會的任務總結報告的第三部的第116頁"},{"start":104.774,"end":133.175,"text":"國防部早就在2021年就表示說目前的三軍一隊是依據當時主管機關教育部的要求才派駐的後來中正紀念堂改立文化部國防部仍舊依據主管機關要求繼續派駐換句話說就這個觀點來看有權有責撤離三軍一隊的單位是文化部所以部長處長會在總結報告中所說的這個是不是事實?部長"},{"start":134.131,"end":161.75,"text":"是完全事實對好那在上一次的詢答中部長你說三軍儀隊不應該在政權轉移中被移來移去本席是相當認同你的說法那因為三軍儀隊移出去之後就不該再被移回來那好那三軍儀隊當然也不該被馬戲團化所以我我們看一下歷史文件就知道說在馬英九任期內他是怎麼樣羞辱三軍儀隊的"},{"start":163.431,"end":191.708,"text":"請部長看看這兩張公文喔2009年的公文第一章是中正紀念堂管理處發給當時的主管機關教育部第二章是教育部依據中正紀念堂管理處請求的發給國防部中正紀念堂管理處請求了什麼他們當時要求要恢復三軍儀隊理由不是什麼一事不一事是要提振觀光這個協助經濟景氣的恢復"},{"start":192.728,"end":203.755,"text":"那怎麼會當時的三軍一隊是為了觀光那現在三軍一隊就是為了儀式所以請問部長這到底是對歷史的無知還是對國人的欺騙啊 部長"},{"start":205.077,"end":205.097,"text":"好!"},{"start":233.812,"end":260.023,"text":"那在上次的詢答中因為部長你說現在的國防部已經不堅持一定要派駐三軍儀隊在中正紀念堂那所以本席是不是可以這樣理解就是說目前的三軍儀隊已經像已經死了半個世紀的獨裁者所進行崇拜的這個行為現在已經是文化部的責任"},{"start":261.91,"end":286.896,"text":"我可能上一次回答委員的時候講了太多很浪漫的歌詞啊什麼什麼事實上我有一句話很重要就是我自己的家族就是我有四個舅舅有三個是白色恐怖的所以最近很多NGO也好他們覺得我好像不認得這件事情他寫了很多信給我一直講其實我必須再講一次我對於中央紀念堂它的威權象徵是完全承認的"},{"start":287.836,"end":287.996,"text":"主席"},{"start":312.64,"end":312.66,"text":"獲得獎勵"},{"start":342.5,"end":342.52,"text":"獲得獎勵"},{"start":360.506,"end":380.345,"text":"好 那我們接下來進入今天的主題根據這個國家語言發展法第5條我們中央主責機關就是文化部應該定期召開國家語言發展會議要來研議、協調及推展國家語言發展事務那2021年文化部也總共辦理了"},{"start":380.725,"end":401.459,"text":"總檢討議員"},{"start":401.559,"end":428.513,"text":"你就是說針對臺語的推廣其實我們並不需要像成立客委會或原民會這樣的一個相同層級的所謂臺語事務委員會就是說因為文化部已經有相同量人來處理這個臺語的推廣是這個意思對不對我們現在已經把我們的那個想要設置一個語言中心的條例送到行政院等待立法院所以我們會成立一個"},{"start":430.293,"end":447.589,"text":"語言發展中心的意思就是各種語言但是我們因為文化部是負責臺語跟馬祖語跟手語那這個組織要怎麼編我們已經大概有想法好那今天的主題叫自信臺灣深根文化軟實力背後想跟部長討論的就是說"},{"start":448.55,"end":474.48,"text":"我們發揮國際影響力不用捨盡求遠也不該忘記自己的根本因為臺灣最豐沛的能量早就蘊含在我們這個所謂的文化脈絡中當然我們因為連續被殖民而且資本主義在全球化的發展所以我國文化的根本其實就是我們的國家語言其實是一點一滴的在流失當中這是一項非常嚴肅的警訊"},{"start":477.461,"end":492.726,"text":"當然這個英文大家都會聽都會講齁那差在差那個智慧量可是英文的文化當然是我們全球人類最習慣最熟悉的文化太陽不過台灣文化就不一樣囉因為台灣文化"},{"start":493.366,"end":499.171,"text":"全世界也只有台灣人台灣人能夠詮釋到位所以如果台灣文化能夠像黑草一樣湧向世界讓世界認識台灣進而學習台灣文化我覺得這個就是讓台灣在國際舞台上充分展現這個文化軟實力那將來就會有機會獲得豐沛的這個果實那我們覺得日本就是一個"},{"start":515.566,"end":515.986,"text":"出席議論：立法院第11屆第11屆議論．"},{"start":541.693,"end":541.893,"text":"主持人李宜瑾"},{"start":572.854,"end":587.621,"text":"或是說台語的聲優或台語的配音師的培育這都是文化部出錢出力的我們看得出來正在努力的現在進行是可是可不可以再請部長跟國文再一次的說明一下相關的具體的規劃其實"},{"start":591.618,"end":620.947,"text":"我自己本身也非常不喜歡把日本動畫配成台語這樣最近我們自己有一部八戒八戒賣得很好它就是有台語版跟多語版多語裡面就是客家語然後三種語言同時出去然後發現的確是各種語言有它自己的樂趣票房也各自有擁有它的觀眾這點我們會從過去未來的電影跟戲劇裡面表達我們的態度這點我可以做到"},{"start":621.627,"end":637.905,"text":"好就是說從各個你現在在努力的這幾個面向阿不我這個台語的這個推廣當然很多的委員都對台語瀕臨這個危險其實都很擔憂齁所以這個部分真的還請文化部多多加強那最後"},{"start":638.626,"end":661.254,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":661.254,"end":661.614,"text":"獲得一票黃牛票"},{"start":677.242,"end":678.163,"text":"在這一次的詹學友的這個演唱會我覺得文化部就展現了一個"},{"start":700.523,"end":700.723,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":723.971,"end":723.991,"text":"謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153732","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5ca961b9a46e0f962f3bd234b5abfe8c9ee56b966b91e11309cb4223b3f47f7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:25:00 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請說明一下"},{"start":251.853,"end":278.079,"text":"我們在規格裡面有把它列為評選加分的標準但是沒有一定規定說一定要有這個抗GPS的干擾就對了應該是說它的抗干擾能力越強它越容易被我們評選我是建議啦但當你們是專家我只是就這個民意代表一般普通的常識來判斷啦不管是軍用軍規軍用商規我都希望它能夠有抗GPS的干擾"},{"start":278.699,"end":278.959,"text":"委員報告"},{"start":308.37,"end":308.43,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153731","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d522675c246f06177979f99d17e212a418ee56b966b91e1130792d42014cb10e305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:17:33 - 11:29:47","影片長度":"00:12:14","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:17:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:29:47+08:00","duration":734,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：彭部長好。彭部長，首先我先簡單問一下，你日前接受媒體採訪說，2050年淨零排放達不到，但是賴總統在他的就職演說表示，面對氣候危機，必須要堅定的落實2050的淨零轉型。我想要問，到底是你吃了誠實的豆沙包，還是賴總統吃了謊言豆沙包？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個不能只看標題，我說的是，全世界的目標，大家都坦言是很難達到的目標，這個gap很大，例如說，我們可能還是升溫3到4度左右，臺灣其實也一樣，所以我們要加倍的努力，要彎道超車，所以這個的確是很難達得到啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以也希望部長，就算很難，你也是要堅定的來為我們的環境做出貢獻，我們來努力。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長在報導裡面也有主動提到針對地面型的太陽光電案場納入環評進度，有關光電開發案除了重要濕地之外事實上免環評的這個題目，在3月21號我也有質詢過薛部長，那時候他承諾會儘快，我也查了貴部4月份公布的立法計畫，其中有預定在6月要預告，要修正開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準，但目前還沒有看到內容，請問部長，什麼時候會預告？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個我們已經跟能源署，還有包含的太陽光電相關業者在討論，他們有特別來找我瞭解，所以我們廣納各界的意見，我們預計在6月底應該就會公告。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長，環境部對於對環境造成傷害的這些部分要怎麼樣去平衡，包含穩定能源跟經濟發展跟環境的部分，要拜託環境部部長多用點心思。"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來就進到今天主要的主題，跟廢棄物相關的部分，首先，我想要先問你一個基本的概念和問題，請問部長，你認為合理的廢棄物政策為何？這個方向應該是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，所有的物質都不應該是廢棄物，應該是可以回收的，但是如果沒有辦法資源回收，才會變成廢棄物，所以我們終極的目標就是零廢棄。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想要講的是，我們是不是可以將建立一個有效追蹤、不污染環境的處理體系視為一個標準？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是我們的目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：那今天就想要來問一下事業廢棄物中營建廢棄物的問題，營建廢棄物包含一般大型公共工程、公司行號、中小型店面、家庭裝修的營建廢棄物，這些廢棄物當然必須由持有清除執照的環保公司清運，其產生的量跟處理量也須向環保單位申報。看螢幕上這張圖，在2021年的時候，以環境部的前身環保署的統計資料為例，全臺營建廢棄物每年約有214萬公噸，而民間廢棄物最多的縣市中，新北市、臺中市為前兩名，可以看這個統計圖。我想要問的是，圖上是否已經有效地掌握全臺真實的營建廢棄物的流向及數量？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，現在已經有很顯著的分流管理，然後針對產源跟流向進行追蹤，而且每一台車都有證明的文件，所以等於是說，要顯著地上網申報，例如說，這些廢棄物是在什麼地方產生，然後到哪裡去結束。我們甚至還有一個路上攔檢，用GPS方式來處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長，你的意思是說，你已經有效地掌握全臺真實廢棄物的流向跟數量嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，如果是大型的建物的話，那就是用聯單的方式來管制，但是因為家裡裝修有時候是找一些做裝修的、做設計工作的人員來，那個比較屬於個人產生的，現在就是用產生源證明文件來做後端的管制……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的意思是說，你覺得你們已經很有效地掌握全臺的真實流向和數量嗎？有嗎？其實我要跟你說，完全錯誤，你們這裡有非常大的漏洞，這是官方統計的資料，但是我要給你看下一個。除了官方統計的數量之外，其實有許多部分的營建跟裝潢廢棄物，都交由清運業者運送到俗稱「棧仔場」的地方，部長知道具體是怎麼做的嗎？其實這就是民間業者對於住家翻新、都更、改造所衍生的營建廢棄物管理功能的砂石棧場的俗稱，雖然沒有合法登記，但確實真實存在於民間處理這些廢棄物的中心，那你知道他們處理的量是多少嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：他們的處理量，因為有些是沒有申報的項目，不過因為這些砂石棧場目前已經在轉型中了，在新北就有土地……"],["廖委員偉翔：好。我給你看一下結論。這些沒有受到監管的棧仔場，跟環境部、經濟部及其他主管機關有關，這些地方是沒有廢棄物統計的真實數字，但是我們可以看到媒體追蹤報導，新北市棧場同業公會理事長稍微計算一下，單單新北市一年進到棧仔場的營建廢棄物規模，就高達126萬噸，對吧？如何計算出來的呢？我給你看一下，新北之前有68家棧仔場，每天平均收到廢棄物約有25台，載滿約4立方公尺的由裝潢或營建工程產出的廢棄物，一天最少產生6,800立方公尺的廢棄物，如果用廢棄物平均密度為每立方公尺0.52噸換算成重量的話，一年就是有126萬噸，據官方統計，約占全臺216萬噸的六成，這也是他們去估算的。部長你覺得處理這些廢棄物的量是不是占比很高？這些沒有統計到的，是不是占比很高？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，就是因為砂石棧場的廢棄物有來自於我們剛剛講過的裝修和事業的廢棄物，來自於裝修的部分，因為從產生源就沒辦法掌握，所以現在我們利用產生源證明文件，而且有建立平台的方式，同時把這個砂石棧場建立合法化，讓它土地合法，現在在申請處理機構……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我知道。我要告訴你的是說，這些統計是沒有有效追蹤的，那現在看到這個加起來非常驚人，光是臺中加上新北的239萬公噸，就大於剛剛我說的官方統計數量，這是不是一個很大的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，對，這是一個問題。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：目前正在努力把這些棧場合法化，同時把所有的產生源都納管。"],["廖委員偉翔：這麼大量，如果所有民間業者都能好好處理，當然我們是樂觀其成，很希望是這樣，但的確也有許多不法的業者沒有將這些廢棄物後續好好處理，而且任意亂倒，這非常多。","而且，根據經濟部統計，每年臺灣營建廢棄物的產出高達7,000萬噸，跟剛剛的數字差異非常的大，跟環境部自己統計的數量落差非常大，所以顯見環境部是不是沒有對此掌握相當足夠？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，跟委員報告，因為有剩餘土石方，另外就是有混合物，剩餘土石方我們把它當成天然的砂石，所以由國土署用地方自治條例的方式去處理，讓它進入土資場。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們有跟經濟部溝通過這個數字？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有跟內政部國土署。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是這是經濟部轄下的循環經濟推動辦公室寫出來的，公布在它的網站上。"],["連署長錦章：跟委員報告，那應該是我們的辦公室彙整各部會的廢棄物統計數字，營建土方是內政部主管的。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我可以請你們再去把這個數據跟跨單位的部分好好地瞭解清楚究竟是多少嗎？因為這裡寫出7,000萬公噸，然後剛剛所有的官方數據是兜不起來的，細節的部分可以拜託追根究柢嗎？因為剛剛有說要有效地追蹤，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，因為剩餘土石方的量非常大，大概六千萬噸，營建混合物的部分比較少，少了很多。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以等於是你覺得大約有1,000萬公噸……"],["賴署長瑩瑩：幾百萬公噸的營建混合物。"],["廖委員偉翔：那跟現在的數據還是有很大的差異，所以要拜託你們，可不可以在瞭解完之後給本席一份報告？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，可以。好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為這個數據讓人覺得很恐怖，7,000萬公噸，即便只要有一成的業者亂處理的話，就有700萬公噸，無怪乎媒體報導，光是台61線的臺中、彰化、雲林跟嘉義段周邊的地區，就有超過300個棄置點，本席很擔心的黑數的部分，其中還有高達65%是位於農業跟養殖用地，然後我自己統計了一下，今年被查獲亂倒且有上新聞的，就已經有15件，部長總不可能把查獲當成是績效。"],["彭部長啓明：我前幾個禮拜還跟保七總隊總隊長見面，我們要加強查緝，所以這也是績效之一。真的，我們加強查緝，我們兩個部會合作，檢警調環密切合作，所以成效非常好。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，這個部分我們期待部長到時候有好表現，我有整理了一下剛剛所說的所有架構，你看一下這個圖，這是可能造成營建廢棄物被亂倒的結構圖表，剛剛環境部講有兩項政策，一個是棧仔場的轉型，成為營建廢棄物處理機構，並且希望2026年可以全面落日轉型，請問，在2026年這個進度有辦法達到嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們現在正在跟環保局合作，我們會一起來達成。"],["廖委員偉翔：你覺得這個進度可以達到嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們會努力來達到。"],["彭部長啓明：努力，我真的努力，因為這個其實有很多的面向要處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：希望你們可以盡全力來做。","第二個部分是今年5月10日資源循環署上線的新的營建及裝潢廢棄物流向管理平台，還是跟剛剛一樣的問題，你有辦法有效地掌握廢棄物的流向嗎？能夠保證未來不會被作假，至少在營建廢棄物不再被亂傾倒嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是，是，裝修廢棄物我們就是讓清運業者有一個產生源證明文件，我們在路上攔查，用平台的方式，如果清運業者沒有證明後面的產生源是合法的，我們就可以來處罰。這部分也不會去干擾到家戶，因為我們總不能讓家戶還要去申報，這部分比較不可行，我們藉由管制清運業者的方式來進行。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，署長，本席希望針對兩個問題，就是如何解決營建廢棄物的黑數及流向不明與違法傾倒的部分，會後是不是可以把更詳細的資料整理給本席辦公室？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖偉翔委員的發言。","接下來請洪申翰委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136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那我們如果是說大型的一個建物的話 那就是用那個連單的方式來管制但是因為我們在家裡裝修 有時候是找一些這個裝修的這個設計工作的人員來 那比較屬於個人產生的 所以現在就是用產生員證明文件來做後端的 所以署長你的意思是說你覺得你們已經很有效的掌握這個全台的真實流向和數量嗎 有嗎"},{"start":272.745,"end":297.302,"text":"其實還是有一些還是對好我跟你說我要跟你說完全錯誤你們這裡有非常大的漏洞這是官方統計的資料但是我要給你看下一個除了官方統計的數量之外其實有許多部分的營建跟這個裝潢廢棄物都交由勤運業者運送到俗稱站宅廠的地方部長知道這是具體是怎麼做的嗎這是沙石站廠對"},{"start":302.302,"end":320.979,"text":"其實這就是民間業者對於這個住家翻新跟改造所衍生的這個營建廢棄物管理功能的這個砂石戰場的俗稱那也就是雖然沒有合法登記但確實真實存在在民間的這個中心處理這些廢棄物的中心那你知道他們處理量是多少嗎?"},{"start":321.946,"end":339.914,"text":"他們的處理量是因為有些他是沒有申報的項目不過因為這些沙災戰場目前已經在轉型中了在新北上就土地上了我給你看一下結論這些沒有受到監管的這個戰災場當然跟所有的我們的包含環境部經濟部跟其他主管機關有關當然"},{"start":342.815,"end":360.407,"text":"這些地方是沒有廢棄物的統計真實的數字啊但是從媒體的追蹤報導我們可以看到這有追蹤報導跟這個新北市站場的這個同業工會理事長他們去稍微計算一下單單新北市一年進到這個站宅場的這個營建廢棄物規模就高達126萬噸"},{"start":363.495,"end":383.265,"text":"對嗎?那如何計算出來的呢?這上面我帶給你看一下喔。新北大概之前約有68家啦。這個站在場。每天平均收到的這個約25台在滿約4立方公尺的從裝潢啦、從營建工程產出的廢棄物。那一天最少產生"},{"start":384.245,"end":384.265,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":404.454,"end":432.978,"text":"的量是不是佔比很高?這些沒有統計到的是不是佔比很高?根委員報告那就是因為這個沙子戰場其實它有來自於我們剛剛講過的裝修的還有我們來自於事業那來自於裝修因為它從產線就沒辦法掌握所以現在我們利用一個這個這個產線證明文件而且有建立平台的方式那同時把這個沙子戰場呢建立合法化好讓它土地合法化它現在在申請這個處理機構在內我知道所以我要告訴你也是說這些統計是沒有有效追蹤的"},{"start":434.018,"end":445.509,"text":"現在看到這個加起來非常驚人喔 如果光是臺中加上新北的這個239萬公噸他就大於剛剛我說的官方統計的這是一個很大的問題對這個是一個問題"},{"start":450.033,"end":450.774,"text":"而且再來我們看下一張"},{"start":470.777,"end":499.06,"text":"根據經濟部統計這個是經濟部統計的數量來說他說每年臺灣營建廢棄物的產出高達7000萬噸欸這跟剛剛的數字又差異非常的大這跟環境部自己統計的數量落差非常大喔所以顯見這個是不是沒有對此掌握沒有相當的足夠是各位報告那因為它有這個剩餘土石方那另外就是有混合物那剩餘土方因為我們把它當成天然的一個砂石"},{"start":499.521,"end":505.442,"text":"所以由這個國土署他會來有一個地方這個自治條例方式去讓他進入土資廠"},{"start":506.641,"end":529.682,"text":"所以你沒有跟經濟部溝通過他這個數字是怎麼算出來的?內政部國土署但是這裡是循環經濟推動辦公室經濟部轄下的單位他寫出來的在他的網站上那應該是我們的辦公室有匯整各部會的那個廢棄物的一個統計數字那應該是內政部署管可能那我可以請你們再去把這個數據"},{"start":530.854,"end":557.902,"text":"跟跨單位的去好好的瞭解清楚究竟是多少嗎因為這裡寫出7000萬公噸然後剛剛所有的官方數據是兜不起來的細節的部分你可以拜託追根究柢嘛因為剛好說要有效的追蹤對吧對對因為剩餘土宿包含其他的量非常大大概6000萬噸那營建混互是這個比較少少了很多所以說大概那等於是你覺得大約有1000萬公噸"},{"start":560.158,"end":568.223,"text":"幾百萬的那跟現在的數據還是有很大的差異所以拜託你們可不可以去瞭解完之後給本席一份報告"},{"start":570.717,"end":593.257,"text":"因為這個數據讓人覺得很恐怖因為7000萬公噸裡面即便只要有一層的業者亂處理的話就有700萬公噸所以吳怪乎這個媒體就報導在光是台61線的台中彰化雲林跟嘉義段周邊的地區就有超過300個棄置點所以這是本席很擔心的這個黑數的部分"},{"start":593.937,"end":603.765,"text":"那其中還有高達65%是位於農業跟養殖用地然後我自己統計了一下今年被查獲亂到且有上新聞的就有像下表這麼多"},{"start":605.222,"end":631.26,"text":"就已經在15件吧?部長總不能把這個查獲當成是績效?報告委員我跟前幾個禮拜還在跟保七總隊總隊長見面我們要加強查締所以這是也是績效之一啦真的我們加強查締我們兩個部會合作檢警調環密切合作好這個部分我們期待就是部長到時候因為我這裡有整理了一下剛剛所說的所有的架構喔您看一下這個圖喔其實"},{"start":632.728,"end":657.064,"text":"可能造成銀件廢棄物被亂倒的結構圖表裡面目前當然剛剛環境部你們有在講你有兩項政策一個是這個站宅廠的轉型成為這個銀件廢棄物處理機構然後並且希望2026年可以全面落日轉型想要請問這進度有辦法達到嗎2026年現在正在跟這個環保局那一起來這個合作我們會來這個你覺得這進度可以達到嗎"},{"start":660.439,"end":681.175,"text":"我們會努力來達到努力啦我真的努力啦因為這個其實有很多的面向要處理然後第二部分喔好那第二部分這部分希望你們可以盡全力來做這樣子的努力喔那第二部分是今年5月10號那個資源循環署上線的新的這個營建及廢棄這個裝潢廢棄物流向管理平台"},{"start":682.156,"end":710.658,"text":"我剛剛還是一樣的問題你有辦法有效的掌握廢棄物的流向嗎要能夠保證未來不會被作假至少在迎接廢棄物上不再被亂清到嗎是是那因為裝修廢棄物我們就是讓輕運業者呢他有一個這個產業證明文件我們在路上攔查用平台的方式那如果是說你在輕運業者沒有這個有一個後面的產生我們就可以來處罰他那這部分也不會去干擾到我們這個家戶因為家戶我們總不能讓家戶他還要去做申報"},{"start":711.218,"end":711.378,"text":"﹚廖偉翔"}]}},{"id":"153730","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153730","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d57ff4f0582e58d9d0b42b94709b0a0804ee56b966b91e1130153008d9278d26895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:18:59 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11:26:23","影片長度":"00:07:24","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T11:18:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:26:23+08:00","duration":444,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":657,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩幫我邀請交通部陳次長以及公路局陳局長。"],["主席：請陳次長還有陳局長。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝兩位。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：因為台2線70K就在我的選區旁邊而已，非常接近，我認為邊坡的防護是非常專業的領域，公路單位一定都非常努力在防範相關事故的發生，所以專業的東西我今天沒有要提太多。首先當然是針對後續搶救的部分，我想先確認一下，雖然我知道公共運輸的許多土方都是載到臺北港去填海造陸，但是我過去在地方擔任議員的時候，常常接到地方政府反映臺北港的填海造陸棄置土方程序還滿複雜的，我想確認一下，公路局這一次坍方，我看新聞好像有1萬2,000方，應該都是送臺北港，我想確認一下後續這部分都協調好了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：請公路局說明一下。"],["陳局長文瑞：這次坍方的土方確實也是運到臺北港，跟臺北港這邊也協調好了。"],["廖委員先翔：因為這個案子相對來說，在搶救或之後再加強防護相對安全，因為它邊坡算是國有的，是旁邊海洋科學館的，不管是相關的道路、高速公路、公路或相關鐵路，都有許多的邊坡，會遇到很多的情況是邊坡的土地其實不是國家的，後續要做相關的防護或監測的時候，可能會遇到一些問題，我想確認一下，這樣的情形普不普遍？我們遇到這樣的情形時，例如我們現在有一段公路旁邊是私有的邊坡，不是國有的，當我們發現它有危險的情況下，我們可以做什麼處置？"],["陳次長彥伯：我簡單說明一下，如果在我們邊坡防治的範圍裡面，以前都是希望上下邊坡，而且邊坡能到波頂去看一下，看有沒有人為開發的行為來影響邊坡的安全，這在國3走山以後，公路法有修改相關的規定，要求當事人要允許我們進去做相關的防治作為，但是整體沿線是不是還有私人的土地、私人的邊坡，我想私人邊坡從某種程度也是個防止水保的義務人，他也應該做相對應的處理。"],["廖委員先翔：但原則上他不會啦，因為要防護的不是他的土地，對他來說那不是很有價值的土地。局長有沒有補充說明？"],["陳局長文瑞：一般上邊坡的部分確實有些會涉及到其他政府部門，還會跨到水保署或林務署，有些私人的部分，如果有必要做立即的防護處置，公路法現在已經有授權，我們也可以做相關的處置。當然，私人土地的部分，他也是水保義務人，後續……"],["廖委員先翔：授權到什麼程度？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們需要做立即的安全防護設置的話，我們會去做……"],["廖委員先翔：對嘛！那是「立即」，授權我們可以去看、去觀察，「立即」的時候，我們有去處理的權力。但是像現在台2線的例子，它是一個突然的狀況，因為它可能原本植被還滿正常的，我們不認為它是會坍塌的地方，但它就是坍塌了，對於這樣的狀況，照目前的法令，假設它是私人土地的情況下，我們現況好像沒有辦法針對它做一些邊坡防護的工程，是不是？"],["陳局長文瑞：目前這塊是海科館的土地。"],["廖委員先翔：我知道這個個案是海科館，相對單純，我不是要針對公路局，而是針對所有鐵路、高速公路、公路，甚至地方政府的一些山路，其實大家都會遇到這個問題，邊坡是公家單位的好講，如果是私人的，我們要怎麼去做防護？我們可以依照程序把它納進交通用地或道路用地的範圍內，取得或補償，或者什麼樣的方式，以後這樣的現象一定會持續發生，就是私人土地的部分。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想這部分請公路局去研究，剛講到水保義務人，其實他本身就有義務。"],["廖委員先翔：對，但是他不會去處理。"],["陳次長彥伯：水保法有相關的規定，義務人沒有做相關的水土保持致生相關的危害，這在水保法有規定，所以我請他們再去研究一下，看看現行的法令……"],["廖委員先翔：因為發生事故的時候，就是國家出來扛，說真的，發生事情的時候，國家也不能說你怎麼沒把水土保持做好，人民一定是課責公家單位嘛！我現在只是想，今天在討論這件事情時，我們應該要很理性來考慮私人邊坡這件事情，我們是不是應該要爭取更多的公務機關有更多的權力，或者怎樣賦予私人，如果他沒有做好水土保持義務的時候，他有沒有更多的課責，才能系統性的來處理全國道路邊坡的系統性問題。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想應該分兩部分，一個是如果在我們管養的道路沿線上有因私人在邊坡應作為而不作為的部分，我們巡檢到了，可以通知他改善。另外，改善的時候，他不作為，其實就是另外一個問題，那就是剛才講的水保法相關的規定，看怎樣要求他來做，這部分如果現行的法令還有所不足，我們跟經濟部再來研議。"],["廖委員先翔：我只是提醒交通單位後續針對我講的情況，如果現在法令方面賦予的權限不足，或者法令可能有需要調整的地方，基於全國用路人的安全，我們必須要審慎思考私人邊坡這件事情要怎樣去克服公家機關目前沒有辦法強制去維護這個問題。"],["陳次長彥伯：我請公路局再去研究看看跨機關是不是還有相關的法令要再完備。"],["廖委員先翔：我覺得不只公路局，還有很多單位，包括剛剛講的鐵路或高速公路。"],["陳次長彥伯：都是一樣的。"],["廖委員先翔：交通部要來做系統性的檢討，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：沒問題。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.35034375,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.52284375,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.345343750000001,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.46721875,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.192218750000002,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.086593750000002,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.828468750000003,"end":27.098468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.40971875,"end":63.632843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.45971875000001,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.39846875,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.05596875,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.43534375,"end":91.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.49346875,"end":109.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.10096875,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.22471875000001,"end":112.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.87409375,"end":118.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.39221875000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.11784375,"end":136.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.00534375,"end":141.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.47721875000002,"end":142.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.60721875000002,"end":192.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.63909375,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.21659375000002,"end":190.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.16159375,"end":190.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.64221875,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.95409375,"end":195.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.50659375,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.22721875000002,"end":202.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.61534375000002,"end":226.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.75096875000003,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.89846875,"end":227.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.08409375000002,"end":233.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.27721875,"end":263.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.78721875000002,"end":236.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.16659375,"end":240.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.40721875,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.09409375,"end":285.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.25846875,"end":273.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.96096875,"end":288.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.33596875,"end":300.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.31721875,"end":307.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.61159375,"end":308.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.36221875,"end":321.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.09909375,"end":320.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.11596875000004,"end":322.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.69784375,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.96784375000004,"end":323.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.00159375000004,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.03534375000004,"end":323.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.05221875,"end":323.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.18721875,"end":323.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.35596875000005,"end":323.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.37284375,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.40659375,"end":339.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.58784375000005,"end":325.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.57909375,"end":327.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.30346875000004,"end":349.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.90159375,"end":344.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.74846875000003,"end":375.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.79909375,"end":352.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.49909375000004,"end":352.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.11159375,"end":375.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.29721875,"end":375.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.33096875,"end":405.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.54159375,"end":405.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.84096875,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.97596875000005,"end":431.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.85409375,"end":441.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.66784375000003,"end":443.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.73409375000006,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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謝謝兩位因為這個台二線嘛這個70K的地方就在我的選區旁邊也非常接近啦那我想邊坡的防護是非常專業的領域啦我想我們公務單位一定都是非常努力在防範相關事故的發生所以專業的東西我今天沒有要提太多"},{"start":41.687,"end":63.073,"text":"首先當然是針對後續搶救的部分我想先確認一下因為我過去在地方政府擔任議員的時候雖然說我們知道說我們公共運輸的許多土方都是載到台北港去做天海照路馬對不對但是我過去在當議員的時候常常會接到地方政府又反映說其實台北港的一個"},{"start":64.497,"end":65.378,"text":"請他們說明一下好不好"},{"start":86.001,"end":101.87,"text":"這個部分我們確實這次攤方的土方也是運到台北港那跟台北港這邊我們也協調好了都協調好了嗎最後去簽約沒有問題嗎好那就是我想請教就是後續因為這個案子相對來說在搶救或是之後要再加強防護相對安全"},{"start":102.21,"end":117.896,"text":"因為它的邊坡是算是國有的它是那個旁邊那個海洋科學館的嘛對不對那其實不管是我們相關的道路高速公路或是公路啊或是相關鐵路啊都會有許多的邊坡嘛"},{"start":118.456,"end":142.556,"text":"那會遇到很多的情況就是我們的邊坡他的土地其實不是國家的那或許要再做相關的防護或監測的時候他可能會遇到一些問題我想確認一下這樣的情形普遍那我們遇到這樣的情形的時候就譬如說我們現在有一段公路旁邊是私有的邊坡不是國有的那我們當他發現有危險的情況下我們可以做什麼樣子的處置"},{"start":147.557,"end":171.331,"text":"我簡單說明一下再請那個說明原則上剛才特別提到如果在我們的邊坡的防治的範圍裡面以前都是希望上下邊坡而且邊坡能夠到坡頂去看一下看有沒有相關的一個人為的開發的行為來影響這個邊坡的安全這個在國道走山國山走山以後在我們公路法裡頭大概有修改相關的一個規定要求這個當事人"},{"start":173.092,"end":174.013,"text":"對,他是義務人。對,但是原則上他不會啦。"},{"start":203.394,"end":216.662,"text":"一般就是說上邊坡的部分的話確實有些會涉及到其他政府部門的還會跨到就是說可能水保署或是林務署那有一些是私人的部分的話如果說有必要做立期的一些"},{"start":217.262,"end":217.422,"text":"稍後的報告"},{"start":237.142,"end":263.67,"text":"那立即的時候我們有去處理的一個權利但是比如說像現在這個台二線70K它是一個突然因為它是一個可能原本還是可能直批還是還蠻正常的一個我們原則上不認為它會坍塌的一個地方但是它就是坍塌了那對於這樣子的東西照目前的法令假設它是私人土地的情況下我們現況好像是沒有辦法針對它去做一些邊坡防護的工程嘛是不是"},{"start":265.724,"end":288.629,"text":"目前這塊是那個海科館的這個路權的一個對這個個案是海科款我知道所以我說這個個案相對單純但是我們全台我其實我不只要針對我們公路局啦而是針對所有鐵路高速公路公路甚至是我們地方政府的一些山路其實大家都會遇到這個問題邊坡公家單位的好獎那如果是私人的"},{"start":289.389,"end":308.432,"text":"那我要去怎麼去做防護 我們可以依照我們的程序把它納進我們交通用地或者是道路用地的範圍內去把它做一個取得或是補償或是說怎樣的方式 因為以後這樣的現象一定會持續的發生嘛 私人土地的部分"},{"start":310.333,"end":332.892,"text":"我想這一部分就請公務總局去研議一下剛才有講到那個水保義務人他其實本身他就有他的義務了這個不是對他有義務但是他不會去因為當他其實說真的發生事件的時候發生事件沒有做相關的水水都保持置身這個相關的一個危害我想這個在水保法有"},{"start":333.553,"end":348.623,"text":"對所以我請他們再去研究一下看是因為發生事故的時候說真的就是我們國家出來扛啦說真的發生事情的時候我們國家沒有辦法去負責但是國家也不可能說你怎麼沒有保持住好我們人民一定是克責我們公家單位嘛那我現在只是想說"},{"start":349.924,"end":374.396,"text":"既然這樣子今天就要討論這個事情的時候我們應該要整理性的來考慮私人邊坡這件事情我們是不是應該要爭取更多的我們公共機關有更多的一個權利或者是怎樣賦予私人如果說他沒有做好稅率保持義務的時候他有沒有更多的一個課則然後才能系統性的來處理全國這個道路邊坡的一個系統性的問題"},{"start":375.636,"end":404.093,"text":"我想跟委員分開兩個啦一個是當然是在我們道路如果是在我們館養的道路的沿線上有因私人他在這個邊坡防治要作為不作為的這部分我想我們尋檢到了可以來通知他改善那另外改善的時候他不作為那其實又是另外一個問題了那就是剛才講水保法相關的規定看怎麼樣來要求他來做那在這部分呢我想如果像現行的法令還有所不足我們跟經濟部再來研究"},{"start":404.693,"end":427.274,"text":"我只是提醒說我們交通單位那後續就是針對我講的情況可能是如果說現在在法令方面賦予的權限不足或是法令可能有需要調整的地方那基於我們全國用戶人的一個安全那我們必須要整天思考私人邊坡這件事情怎麼樣去克服我們公關機關目前沒有辦法去強制去做維護的這個問題"},{"start":429.116,"end":430.677,"text":"好不好以上提供我的一些個人意見"}]}},{"id":"153729","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153729","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d594d85066f1620b65b42b94709b0a0804ee56b966b91e113055ca24a39e73c50c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:11:25 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能力是不足"},{"start":50.47,"end":69.062,"text":"那時候在那個改組以前那時候有跟您建議就是說那其實你也知道許多的研究人員他們需要更多的一些不管是心思上面的一個加急或者是人力上面的需求才能夠加速目前國內所有有關於運安的報告的進度啊那你還記得這件事嗎?"},{"start":71.954,"end":91.874,"text":"人力的部分就剛剛前面林縣委所詢問的這個那你那時候有提到說會跟行政院來提報要增加人力需求那我想請教一下那現在那個都改組了有提報了嗎還沒有提報大家預計什麼時候要提報因為你的回答大家同仁在等"},{"start":93.979,"end":122.303,"text":"我們一個月之內來檢討看整個人力上怎麼來填補對啊那個最主要期待的是運輸安全調查委員會能夠實際上發揮功能像是國外許多運輸安全調查委員會他們我相信在許多的報告這個有時候不要等到兩年一年那能夠的話就是加速能夠讓社會大眾能夠清楚知道進度好不好那這個月一個月內看目前來講預計怎麼樣來爭取人力援俄的情況跟交通委員會大家來做個回覆好不好"},{"start":122.523,"end":122.543,"text":"陳事長"},{"start":144.026,"end":167.757,"text":"委員好市長好那也許剛才許多的委員都有在關心那當然我們知道這是天災啦那天災的話但是我們也期待的就是不管是公路局或者是包括整體交通部在這個許多的一個監測邊坡的部分大家都能夠發揮更強大的功能那其實記得2010年那時候也曾經一個山崩"},{"start":168.517,"end":183.502,"text":"還在隧道那邊還也奪走了四車五命的一個悲劇那我們再回頭來講這次看到這個也是無預警的一個坍方坍塌那想要直接就到次長就是您對於交通的業務是非常熟悉"},{"start":184.102,"end":199.146,"text":"那目前在這個定量分級的部分有分A、B、C、C加還有D級的部分總共列管的1700處那目前在今天這一次發生的這個我們前幾天發生這個邊坡基隆的這一件那有是在裡面的1700處之一嗎?"},{"start":201.467,"end":208.65,"text":"有,有在我們1008處之內是列為C級的邊坡C級嗎?那C級的話那時候有辦法預警到會隨時有發生這種突發狀況嗎?C級的邊坡就是它是相對穩定的一個邊坡他是在順風坡嗎?順向坡嗎?"},{"start":221.354,"end":234.638,"text":"他在這個地方是一個逆向坡嗎?逆向坡嘛,逆向坡那當初的話有沒有相關的一些監測的這個部分不管是搖桿探測還是科技的巡檢在這個邊坡優先關注邊坡裡面?"},{"start":236.559,"end":254.339,"text":"他是屬於優先關注邊坡裡面的其中之一嗎?他不是。他不是在我們優先關注的邊坡裡面。因為他最主要他實批非常良好。所以在以往的巡檢裡頭大概看不到他有自宅的一個績效。"},{"start":255,"end":262.771,"text":"那在109年到112年省道改善計畫優先關注邊坡的科技巡檢執行經費1.7億元113年續編4千萬辦理檢測那強化這個46處移住經費20億那所以這46處也沒有涵蓋在這個邊坡"},{"start":272.324,"end":299.018,"text":"沒有那個是屬於我的瞭解應該是屬於優先關注的邊坡對那所以這個沒有在優先關注之列那本席要就教那像這樣子無預警發生的這種邊坡的這種山崩那怎麼樣能夠去強化那這個監測因為今天連您應該也提到這叫做植被都算是良好的邊坡但是也會發生這種無預警的那這樣子的話全台灣還有多少除包括在南投縣有沒有這種"},{"start":299.778,"end":303.319,"text":"為什麼會分ABCD等級就是其實他是想要降低所謂造勢的一個風險所以"},{"start":316.244,"end":341.392,"text":"才會有這樣的一個等級的話分那列在C等級裡頭但是相對於A、B來講是安全很多而且它經過一定程度的一個分析以後才會到C這個等級那至於說C等級裡頭還發生了這樣的一個自災的原因我在前面幾次的報告也都有特別提到我們是不是有其他的一些地質的因素裡頭沒考慮這個我們會來考慮"},{"start":343.292,"end":361.025,"text":"另外也有委員特別提到就是說監測的系統是不是應該來這裡看怎麼樣來布設這個我們也會在後續去做一些檢討因為時間有限就是說希望說在這個檢測的部分能夠看用更嚴謹的方式能夠讓大家能夠心安"},{"start":362.006,"end":383.567,"text":"因為這個部分如果說是C級他不是AB級那其實他相對大家應該感到安心的地方卻無意準的坍塌那所以我是認為本席是認為應該要通盤的來去做這個檢討因為今天發生在基隆我也怕我的選區南投有沒有這種風險那其他各縣市都有可能有這種風險那再來就是剛才有提到他的目前的看牌"},{"start":384.888,"end":404.348,"text":"現在檢測那個是什麼級的看牌是立在相關的一個就是道路的旁邊嘛那這個網路上面查不查得到哪一段是大概是多少的一個檢測的級別那我是建議就是這個回答就是一看到揮手就表示說是沒有在網路上面公佈啦"},{"start":405.309,"end":432.209,"text":"這個我們來研究把它做網路上的公開揭示公開揭露讓大家可以去上網查到家裡附近的或是上班途中經過的這個路段那是不是屬於什麼級別那大家其實我相信因為這次的事件大家很多人都非常的關心平常行進的路上是不是有這種風險那可以的話讓大家上網也查得到我在想說這樣子也可以有利於大家行車的時候實時注意"},{"start":432.59,"end":434.403,"text":"是 是 這個我們會來辦理是 OK 好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153728","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d53d32d0528ffe1210b42b94709b0a0804ee56b966b91e1130d2f3ea4d6b5664bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:03:36 - 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調配支援那兩位現在在太空領域上你們有什麼進度這個我是不是挺航空組組長因為他在籌備不好意思你也不太清楚"},{"start":105.411,"end":118.817,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛您指示的我們現在有兩位曾經參加過美國一些實際太空運作的諮詢委員所以這有兩位現在已經諮詢委員到我們雲南會嘛對不對對他來領導我們在因為這是一個全新科學"},{"start":122.439,"end":143.717,"text":"現在他來主要做什麼事他給我們一些諮詢所以我們在我們未來的太空調查方面在四個領域裡面比如說發射場站、太空載具跟衛星載具等等什麼時候來的他是在2022年已經來快兩年了吧是"},{"start":147.113,"end":166.926,"text":"那組織法你們調整了沒有?組織法目前我們已經成大約了。那設備你們買了沒有?目前我們在盤點國內產官學的一些設備避免資源重置。所以兩年有什麼實際上我們覺得運安會有做事讓我們感受得到的?"},{"start":168.366,"end":193.903,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在目前就是針對人力方面特別是在人力方面因為這是一個新興的領域我們目前在籌劃人力所以在籌劃人力嘛那已經來兩年了總要有一些事情讓人民看得到說這些人才來這邊做了什麼事啊是那基本上跟委員報告沒關係細節就不用論太多那個主委"},{"start":194.85,"end":211.917,"text":"所以我要要求的就是說總是要有一些呈現的部分讓人民看得到嘛啊不然你來到底做什麼大家都不知道啊你自己也說不出具體的東西那等於說領了不少錢啊結果成果沒有表現出來"},{"start":214.7,"end":235.755,"text":"這是太空事故這方面目前是因為他沒有事故上還沒顯現出來是確實是應該要來籌備沒有錯啦對啊所以你都籌備兩年你總是要有一些具體的進度嘛啊進度沒有看到具體的進度當然有我在這邊做研究研究兩年沒有具體的進度那就看不出來嘛"},{"start":240.265,"end":257.224,"text":"其實我之前跟主委要求就是說你類似有一些相關的活動事實上越南會除了發生事故之外調查事故之外那其他的時間是不是有機會來做一些科普教育"},{"start":258.782,"end":282.893,"text":"上次我也有指示我們有計畫說那現在有什麼具體的行動嗎我們準備年底說如果交通部有在高雄市地區有辦一些交通安全展﹖不只是高雄我想全國都是可以考量你可以看到112年我跟主委問的時候主委說那個會跟交通部相關辦理一起辦理"},{"start":284.113,"end":311.32,"text":"然後113年我又問那你們就說那個會同交通部回復就是配合交通部本來是主動變成被動那你可以看到我們的那個鐵路節6月15號6月7號開始鐵路節慶祝活動那我一直要求就是向普悠瑪向太魯閣這個你們可不可以做一下配合鐵路節的慶祝活動"},{"start":312.625,"end":340.003,"text":"你總是有一些成果有一些要求將來有一些怎麼改善那怎麼樣避免將來事故再發生那這些東西是不是你們可以配合把它表現出來讓民眾可以了解可以可以這個我們可以做沒問題6月15恐怕你們已經來不及了啦現在再規劃都來不及了但是我們下半年還有很多活動可以規劃沒有問題沒有問題那可以6月15可以那我可以看得到成果齁"},{"start":340.763,"end":369.126,"text":"6月15日我請那個質詢不要回答不要隨便回答了你可以就可以不可以就不說不可以來不及就說來不及你現在跟我說你6月15可以我還有點主委提醒你喔問號主委提醒你6月15號我們新聞演講6月15號我可以先做一些海報啦相關的一些資料那是真正事實還是具體東西我們再想辦法所以主委我就說你不要隨便敷衍我我要的是有一些具體的東西是是"},{"start":369.867,"end":394.399,"text":"我再舉個例子齁那個我們高雄的大型的活動好像2023十月食品展2024三月城市智慧城市展2024世界原民旅遊高峰會他們也在我們展覽館做一個展覽那你今年年底運安會年會要移師高雄你可不可以有一些表現好我們來規劃我們來規劃沒問題"},{"start":398.304,"end":419.135,"text":"主委你看前一張我都有寫日期什麼時候問你啊112年11月2號113年4月19號那今天是113年6月6號那年會是年底才辦那你不要敷衍我說到時候只用一張海報說我有宣導"},{"start":420.558,"end":448.261,"text":"好不好?你可以看到你看我附上的這些照片智慧城市展跟那個原住民旅遊高峰會其實人家都辦得還有聲有色那你今天就是說除了辦年會之外其實你本來年會可能規劃到那邊只是就一開一開會就結束了吧那你既然來了嘛是不是把它擴大展覽辦理一下讓我們看得到運輸安全調查委員會到底做什麼事"},{"start":449.381,"end":451.202,"text":"好不好?"},{"start":451.202,"end":455.804,"text":"好好今天6月6日年底我們拭目以待我來辦沒問題沒問題 要反饋就先過來好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153727","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153727","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d50160bf17eeed8519b42b94709b0a0804ee56b966b91e1130783359ec8a1787385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:56:04 - 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Code，民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷，什麼時候檢查、什麼時候做一些改變。"],["蔡委員其昌：請問一下要去哪裡找到這個牌子掃QR Code？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到，我的瞭解……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，有可能一個邊坡是2公里，我不就要去邊坡巡查看那塊牌子你們放在哪裡？"],["陳次長彥伯：應該是經過都會看得到啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是我們都講到AI了，我們都講到AI了啦！AI照理我跟它說這個路段安全嗎？AI直接要告訴我說：老闆，現在你走過這裡，公路局說是D，很安全。我都還沒有講AI，我只是說可不可以讓大家……因為你都已經做了嘛！我要強調的就是，政府有在做事情就要說給大家知道，有一個制度立法委員要監督才會清楚，他才清清楚楚啊！所以是不是意外其實在於有沒有按照SOP做，如果法令的規定就是這樣子，公務同仁都按照SOP做，做完之後不幸的又發生了坍塌，這樣就是意外；如果不照SOP做，這個叫做人禍，因為都不是按照既有的規矩做事情啊！所以我才會藉著這個事情，我沒有責怪你們的意思，因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們，說實在話，我也不知道責怪什麼，但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程讓它清清楚楚、讓每一個工務段的公務同仁知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情，做好之後也依規定能做好就公告。你想知道，你也可以很清楚地知道，所以你都已經做了，就不用怕嘛！不一定要到現場。","例如我開車，你想依人性，我開車去旅遊，我開去基隆看到邊坡，等一下要過的時候不知道安全嗎？我還要先找到牌子，然後開始掃QR 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Code民眾掃一下就可以看到清楚的履歷他做一些什麼時候檢查什麼時候做一些改變請問要去哪裡找到這個牌子這個牌子在現在所有的邊坡上都看得到我的瞭解甚至有可能一個邊坡是兩公里我不就要去那個邊坡巡查看那台牌子在哪裡應該是你經過都會看到我的意思是說這是我們都講到AI"},{"start":551.297,"end":571.698,"text":"我們都講到AI啦AI叫你說喔是因為我說這個路端安全嘛那AI直接要告訴我說欸老闆現在你走過這公路局說這是低很安全的我都還沒有講AI我只是說可不可以讓大家很因為你都已經做了嘛我要強調的就是說"},{"start":572.85,"end":598.419,"text":"我們政府有在做事情我們就要講給大家知道有一個制度立法院委員要監督才會清楚清清楚楚所以是不是意外它其實在於說我們有沒有按照SOP做如果公務同仁法令的規定就是這樣子我們大家都按照SOP做做完之後不幸的它又發生了坍塌這樣叫做意外"},{"start":599.52,"end":617.738,"text":"那如果你不照SOP做啊這個叫做人禍因為你就不按照這個既有的規矩做事情啊所以我才會藉著這個事情我沒有責怪你們的意思啦因為我看了這個報告說要責怪你們說實在話我也不知道責怪什麼但是我要檢討的是這個SOP的流程"},{"start":618.338,"end":646.065,"text":"讓他清清楚楚讓每一個公路段的工程知道他幾月幾號該做這個事情做好之後我也依規定我能做好我就公告你想知道你也可以很清楚的知道所以你都已經做了你就不怕不用怕嘛不一定要到現場那我就開車你想在一個人性我開車去旅遊我開去基隆看到邊坡我要先找到我等一下要過的時候不知道要安裝沒有我還要去找先找到牌子然後開始掃QR CODE"},{"start":647.265,"end":674.49,"text":"掃完之後,這個是低,沒有問題,慢慢開。對,掃到,欸,噢,開到香了,因為這將會不可能會坍塌。這不合人性嘛,這不符合邏輯嘛。所以我才會建議次長,建議交通部,我們按照SOP來做,做完,我就讓大家知道說,我們都有做,每一年都有做。那豪雨過後,地震過後,我們有特別的這個處理,我們就按照這樣處理。次長你覺得我這樣的建議可不可以做得到?"},{"start":674.79,"end":690.784,"text":"我想委員的建議首先要說明的就是說同仁應該是各公務段的同仁應該都是有按照我剛才講的那個SOP的程序我沒有說他們沒有按照啦我只是建議說因為你都定期廣告定期那個就大家都清楚嘛"},{"start":691.215,"end":709.827,"text":"是,然後接下來我想我們會跟公務局同仁來討論一下如何讓定期檢測各種檢測完的結果讓他透明的公開來除非你有其他顧慮,譬如說這是不能讓不會不會不會有國安問題不可以讓共匪知道"},{"start":710.487,"end":734.314,"text":"那你當然不公告嘛我剛才就講說我們相關的ABCD等級我們都有公告在道路的沿線就代表說對這種公告我們是很希望公民公開透明因為我覺得這樣子清清楚楚我們做事情清清楚楚這樣同仁也沒有壓力我都有照顧記者萬一有什麼意外發生大家不會批評因為我都照顧記者這就是意外"},{"start":737.515,"end":741.547,"text":"阿不然齁,立法院又要檢討是不是有人禍阿?是不是這樣子?好,好,沒問題"}]}},{"id":"153725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5c42d048b275b3cccf3bd234b5abfe8c9ee56b966b91e11308aa131f5e391f1f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:16:08 - 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合同院主席站起來你會不會跟我講可以嗎我事實上跟你們講啦你們自己的調查報告白紙黑字就寫這不是軍備局可以管的啦這不是軍備局可以管的啦"},{"start":283.402,"end":283.622,"text":"蔡雪良媽媽"},{"start":305.447,"end":326.42,"text":"我不曉得部長今天來的時候是不是有看到蔡媽媽還有她的布條那其實她要的很簡單她要的只有一個真相因為在2020年的時候臺大法醫研究所做出來的鑑定報告說她兒子死亡的時候根本就不是T-65K2步槍及子彈所造成的"},{"start":327.22,"end":349.092,"text":"當然因為他所發現的這個新的證據已經超過了我們對於再審期間的限制所以他提再審沒有過他提再審沒有過並不是因為沒有再審的事由而是超過了那個再審的期間部長您過去曾經講過面對過去的冤案我們應該要翻箱倒櫃的追問"},{"start":350.713,"end":375.633,"text":"這個精神我非常的認同我們在面對軍煙的時候特別是傷心欲絕的家人的時候我們政府其實真的有責任將心比心給對方一個真相一個公道所以我最後的懇求是這個樣子我不知道國防部有沒有收到蔡媽媽的陳情國防部可不可以慎重的在考慮重啟一次行政調查把最近"},{"start":376.474,"end":388.548,"text":"法院研究所他們所抽出來的鑑定的報告納入你們重啟行政調查的範圍當中最起碼告慰家屬給家屬一個真相跟交代部長這樣可以嗎"},{"start":389.865,"end":410.476,"text":"跟委員報告,因為這個案子之前我就有瞭解,我的瞭解是平淵協會那一邊已經幫他窮盡了所有相關司法的程序,所以光部即使再次重啟行政調查,是不是能夠讓他在司法救濟上能夠有所得,我想在法律上"},{"start":412.036,"end":436.944,"text":"司法救濟的途徑我相信顧部長之前是個大律師我們都很了解訴訟法相關的規定但我現在在跳脫的已經不是司法救濟程序是他現在卡在心中的那個真相他兒子到底怎麼走的那法醫研究所驗出來的跟當初的結果不一致就這個部分國防部願意再重啟調查給這位傷心欲絕的媽媽一個基本的交代嗎"},{"start":437.984,"end":450.966,"text":"因為司法的調查據我的了解已經把所有相關的證人都找去了我們如果要再重啟行政調查這可能那個權限的範圍是相當有限是"},{"start":452.005,"end":453.326,"text":"其實上禮拜好像有找過他了上禮拜我們有碰過面"},{"start":481.46,"end":481.66,"text":"黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"153724","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153724","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5e0a993bbdf9505c42248f66a23a11b53ee56b966b91e1130dad8ba2f965d2ad25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:12:55 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Tahovecahe委員代）：謝謝王世堅委員，請總裁回座。接下來請召委羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.79034375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.09409375,"end":2.2415937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":2.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.3890937500000002,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.40596875,"end":4.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.53659375,"end":5.0934687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.19471875,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.337218750000002,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.555968750000002,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.85534375,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.504718750000002,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.20909375,"end":24.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.938468750000002,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.676593750000002,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.74784375,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.945968750000002,"end":32.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.30846875,"end":34.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.36721875,"end":42.353468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.53909375,"end":42.758468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.674093750000004,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.65284375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.69909375,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.799718750000004,"end":48.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.95159375,"end":50.554718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.837218750000005,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.782218750000006,"end":72.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.96471875,"end":77.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.65596875,"end":79.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.10284375,"end":81.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.89159375,"end":82.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.92096875,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.33846875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.43471875,"end":90.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.34596875000001,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.49784375,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.76346875,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.22721875,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.58971875,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.02409375,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.93096875,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.39034375,"end":104.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.70659375000001,"end":105.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.80346875000001,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.47409375000001,"end":109.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.15721875000001,"end":112.89096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.22846875,"end":113.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.98346875,"end":115.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.92846875000001,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.93659375000001,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.74659375,"end":119.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.42159375000001,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.95284375000001,"end":123.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.65721875000001,"end":127.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.65659375000001,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.66721875000002,"end":143.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.85659375,"end":156.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.81659375,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.12846875,"end":159.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.52909375000002,"end":161.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.60909375,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.71409375000002,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.63784375,"end":167.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.94971875000002,"end":170.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.34596875,"end":174.0290937500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Tahovecahe委員：總裁好。今天我們安排的是有關日圓貶值對臺灣經濟的影響，至少我們看到日圓貶值至34年來新低，也是臺日民間交流的好時機，我們看到好多國人前往日本旅遊、買家電，也看到日本在這樣的一個情況之下，它也願意選擇天數最短、距離最近、價格最低的臺灣。在這樣的狀況之下，我們其實也看到，就是最近其實臺灣還滿熱鬧的，像黃仁勳來到臺灣，他也發展了一套臺灣的夜市學，我在這邊只是想呼籲一下，我也希望黃仁勳可以到我們原鄉來走一走，幫我們promote一下。","去日本買家電確實很便宜，因為我們看到像dyson的空氣清淨機，你看它的牌價是18,888元，可是到日本當地去買，可以用七千七百多元買到，所以大家都說沒有保固也很值得。另外，我們看到日本也不是沒有反制啦！因為他們也很擔心很多人去就是要轉售牟利，所以他們也有因應的方法，他們有開發這種系統，就是可以防止你到處去造訪、到處購買家電。但是我要講的是有另外一種消費型態，他是在官網買，在官網買也有半價以上的價格可以輕鬆購入。再來一種就是在本地，也就是在我們臺灣去買他們的日電，我們看到10年前，其實當他們日圓貶值的時候，我們在臺灣買日系家電其實也很划得來，可是10年之後，像現在，如果我們要在臺灣去買這些日系的汽車、家電，其實並不見得比較便宜哦！所以想要請教一下總裁，因為我們國人其實真的是比較偏好日系的這些家電或品牌，那麼到底在國內購買、到日本購買，或者是透過網購平臺購入，總裁，您認為要考慮哪些不同的因素？也就是說，你教大家怎麼樣最好啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，說實在的，我對於shopping比較外行，當然我總覺得委員你的分析都比我所知道的還更多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有，我是看新聞分析啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦、是啦，你的分析比我所知道的更多，當然你在這邊說有哪些不同考量，基本上，說實在的，我沒辦法在這邊提出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：當然今天我們邀請的是央行跟我們經濟部，其實在這10年當中，我們會看到原物料的成本、物流的成本、供應鏈、市場的供需，其實這些專業的知識、技術都在各位的手中。我覺得我們國人其實很簡單，老百姓就是希望知道我怎麼買、怎麼做對我最有利，以減緩我的經濟壓力，這個才是老百姓最希望知道的。所以我也希望藉著今天我們委員會安排了這樣的一個專報，希望能夠對我們一般平民百姓，能夠給他們一些指引方向，所以還是麻煩總裁啦，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我看到大家引頸期盼的第22屆臺北國際數位影音家電展也即將來臨，這個當中政府也標榜說買什麼可以省什麼，最高可以省5,000塊，今天我們在經濟部的一個專報裡面有看到，就是為了要推動節能規模，經濟部有加強節能服務業的發展，去規劃信保制度，單一的節能服務業、單一的企業它最高有3億元的信保額度，這是為了要引導金融業的資金要投入我們的節能工作，而且經濟部也向行政院爭取到117年擴大汰舊換新補助的措施，我想這個部分都很好。我接下來想要請教總裁，您認為日圓接下來會不會繼續貶值？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果說日圓它長期的趨勢（trend）是怎麼樣，誠如你問是不是……說實在的，以目前來看是很難去下定論，但是我只能就目前的情況來跟委員報告。說基本上市場大體上都知道，1美元兌157塊，甚至到160塊，這個都不是日本政府它所願意看到的，所以你會發現到157塊的時候，日本的央行就會在市場干預，所以你看看，最近它也變化了，它把它壓下來了以後，它又上去，但是市場又到這個高點的時候，自己又覺得可能日本政府會下來，所以它又下來，到目前我個人認為大概是在155塊左右，所以它是不是會一直上去，市場大概也知道日本政府的態度。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我這樣問，當然我們就是關心，因為日圓貶值的時候，大家都說可以提高新臺幣對日圓的購買力，所以這個看起來是有利臺灣企業對日本直接的投資或購買他們的技術。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我在這邊是為國內企業請命，以冷氣來講，國內的品牌東元、聲寶、禾聯、華菱、萬士益等等，剛才有提到經濟部提供節能產業的信貸保證，那麼，是不是能夠去掌握這個趨勢，加速臺灣本土產業的升級？我想這個部分是我們非常希望能夠看到的，畢竟我們一直希望強化臺灣家電的出口優勢，品牌能不能夠在這一波有助益於我們國內的企業，我在這邊想要請教一下經濟部，有沒有這樣一個方向？謝謝。"],["主席：請林常次。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，只有20秒。"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員剛剛所提到的部裡面在推節能，就是我們跟國內家電的合作，我們要提升國內家電的附加價值也好，或競爭也好，我想會從幾個面向，一個部分當然是從研發新產品，我們給予補助；另外一個部分就是設計，用設計來創造我們產品的價值，針對產品在市場上競爭，我們會努力協助業者。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，因為你們原本是為了節能，但是我們又碰到這一波日圓貶值，在這個部分，我們是希望經濟部可以把你們原來規劃的汰舊換新、節能產業，是不是可以跟這一波趨勢順應扶搖直上，有這個機會可能嗎？"],["林次長全能：有，汰舊換新當然是為了節能，當然也可以帶市場出來，這個市場出來的時候，我剛剛講我們用研發讓他們去研發生產新的產品，加上設計將美學導入，讓它的價值更高。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那就請經濟部多多扶植國內產業，謝謝。謝謝次長、謝謝總裁、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請王世堅王委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.1234687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.29221875,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.76784375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.24846875,"end":29.984093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.984093750000003,"end":30.152843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.152843750000002,"end":31.199093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.317218750000002,"end":31.722218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.722218750000003,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.307218750000004,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.52659375,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.284093750000004,"end":54.689093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.63846875,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.50721875,"end":58.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.42534375000001,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.64471875000001,"end":73.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.47096875,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.80846875,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.87971875000001,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.70159375,"end":86.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.76909375000001,"end":82.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.65034375,"end":117.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.10034375000001,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.83721875,"end":106.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.04659375000001,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.80159375000001,"end":118.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.05471875,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.15909375000001,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.01096875000002,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.85784375,"end":136.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.06034375000002,"end":153.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.25159375,"end":154.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.23034375,"end":157.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.52534375000002,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.06096875,"end":162.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.63846875000002,"end":168.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.92409375,"end":184.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.77846875,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.20846875,"end":187.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.22534375,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.66409375,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.59221875,"end":200.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.18971875000003,"end":212.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.61471875,"end":206.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.66534375,"end":206.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.41596875000002,"end":209.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.23409375,"end":212.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.57159375,"end":294.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.71909375,"end":214.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.80721875,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.82784375000003,"end":221.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.66284375,"end":223.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.25096875000003,"end":239.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.57034375,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.06784375,"end":250.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.93659375000001,"end":252.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.98721875,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.73784375000002,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.41534375000003,"end":294.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.56721875,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.96721875000003,"end":300.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.08534375,"end":320.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.47846875000005,"end":325.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.64659375,"end":349.20846875}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﹏﹏"},{"start":155.282,"end":183.947,"text":"到底在國內購買到日本購買或者是透過網購平台購入總裁您認為要考慮哪一些不同的因素也就是說你教大家怎麼樣最好啦報告委員說實在的我對shopping對這我也比較外行當然我總覺得那個委員你的分析多比我"},{"start":184.907,"end":190.949,"text":"總裁今天我們邀請的是央行跟我們經濟部那其實在這個10年當中我們會看到原物料的成本物流的成本"},{"start":214.255,"end":215.575,"text":"我也是希望說藉著今天"},{"start":240.8,"end":242.301,"text":"我看到就是第22屆大家引頸期盼的台北國際數位影音家電展也即將來臨"},{"start":264.036,"end":270.181,"text":"當中政府也標榜說買什麼可以省什麼最高可以省五千塊今天我們在經濟部的一個專報裡面我們有看到為了要推動節能的規模"},{"start":279.948,"end":294.013,"text":"經濟部有加強節能服務業的發展去規劃信保制度那單一的這種節能服務業單一的企業他最高有3億元的信保額度"},{"start":294.913,"end":318.293,"text":"這是為了要引導金融業的資金要來投入我們的節能工作而且呢這個經濟部也向行政院爭取到117年擴大這個太舊換新補助的措施那我想這個部分都很好所以我就是接下來想要請教總裁您認為日圓接下來會不會繼續貶值"},{"start":323.36,"end":348.728,"text":"如果說日圓他長期的趨勢是怎麼樣以目前來看的話是很難去下定論但是我拯救目前的情況來跟委員報告就是說基本上市場都大體上都知道"},{"start":350.267,"end":368.904,"text":"一百五十七塊一美元對一百五十七塊甚至到一百六十塊這個都不是日本政府他所願意看到的所以你會發現到就是說到一百五十七塊的時候呢日本的央行就會在市場干預所以你看看最近他也變化了"},{"start":369.644,"end":370.785,"text":"他現在大概是在155塊左右"},{"start":390.955,"end":406.88,"text":"所以是不是他會一直上去市場大概知道就是說日本政府的態度是那為什麼這樣問當然我們就是關心因為日圓貶值的時候大家都說可以提高新台幣對日圓的購買力"},{"start":409.421,"end":429.828,"text":"所以這個看起來是有利台灣企業對日本直接的投資或購買他們的技術所以我在這邊是為國內企業請命以冷氣來講國內的品牌東元、森堡、核聯、華林、萬世益這些那我們是不曉得說"},{"start":431.248,"end":448.468,"text":"剛才有提到經濟部有提供這個節能產業的一個信貸保證那麼是不是能夠去掌握這個趨勢加速台灣本土產業的一個升級我想這個部分是我們非常希望能夠看到的"},{"start":449.228,"end":449.348,"text":"只要20秒齁"},{"start":473.632,"end":486.322,"text":"我想謝謝委員剛剛所提到的部裡面在推這個節能我們跟國內的家電這邊來做合作那我們要提升國內家電的一個這個這個附加價值也好或競爭也好我想會從幾個面向一個部分當然從研發新產品部分我們給予這個補助另外一個部分就是設計用設計的部分來創造我們產品的價值我想這個是在產品在市場上競爭我們會努力來協助業者對因為你們原本是為了節能是"},{"start":502.734,"end":520.203,"text":"但是我們又碰到這一波就是日圓貶值那在這個部分我們是希望說經濟部可以把你們原來規劃的這個太舊換新節能產業是不是可以跟這一波趨勢我們可以順應扶搖直上有這個機會可能嗎"},{"start":522.424,"end":522.804,"text":"現在請王世堅王委員"}]}},{"id":"153722","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153722","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d538681796daa2f7ce9dbbe5275cafb4dfee56b966b91e1130456854e6ed04a8475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:14:13 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24小時平均15.4微克/每立方米裡面都叫做良好的空氣品質，只有超過到橘燈才會對人體健康不好。","我今天要跟你講的是2018年國衛院跟你們共同發表了PM2.5細懸浮微粒特徵對民眾健康影響的研究，這是國衛院的本土研究，它透過減量成本和健康效益評估發現，全臺灣PM2.5的濃度減量到15微克/立方米的時候，可以避免1,843人中風，可以讓166人急性心肌梗塞避免掉，可以減少568個肺癌，712位慢性阻塞性肺病的個案可以避免發生，可以增進2萬7,210年的平均餘命，可以增進3萬0,282年的健康人生，可以節省健保29億8,000萬元。如果把它降到10微克/立方米的標準以下的話，肺癌可以避免的死亡人數是638人；在15微克/立方米的標準下，可以減少死亡345人。10微克/立方米是可以少死638人，15微克/立方米只剩下345人，我要講這個的意思是說，只差5微克/立方米就可以避免死亡人數少一倍，所以你說空氣品質標準重不重要？很重要，因為你國家的標準定在哪裡，決定了國民的健康啊！健康攸關著每一個家庭，也關係到健保的支出，所以這份國衛院的報告在2018年的建議，PM2.5對健康的影響，在相當低的濃度仍有作用，都應該要降到WHO標準年平均10微克/立方米，日平均25微克/立方米。","這是國衛院的報告，它還是建議我們，年平均還是應該要10微克/立方米，而日平均應該要是25微克/立方米。國衛院建議的這個WHO的標準，事實上人家WHO的標準都變了，WHO的標準變成年平均是5微克/立方米，但是一天24小時的平均是15微克/立方米，4年過去了，他們已經變了，但是我們要追上WHO的舊標準，我們都還只能看著他們的車尾燈，還是一樣在追車尾燈，部長，你說。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個……"],["林委員淑芬：還看不到喔！"],["彭部長啓明：對，第一個，WHO是一個建議的標準，目前還沒有一個國家真的用5微克/立方米當成一個指標。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，但我在講的時候，看上一次人家是年平均10微克/立方米，日平均25微克/立方米。"],["彭部長啓明：10微克/立方米也是我想達到的目標，但問題是，以我們現在的幾個空品區來看，花東這麼乾淨的地方也只有7到8微克/立方米；西半部這麼密集，過去8年從20微克/立方米降到十三點多微克/立方米，大概降了7微克/立方米左右，其實花了滿多錢的，我跟我同事……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦，沒有從20微克/立方米降到十三點多微克/立方米，北部空品區是12.2微克/立方米，竹苗是13微克/立方米，中部是16.5微克/立方米，雲嘉南是18.6微克/立方米，高屏是17.5微克/立方米。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我是說全國平均，全國大概在13微克/立方米左右。"],["林委員淑芬：你直接這樣跟高雄人、雲嘉南的人、中部的人講，他們可能也覺得觀感不太好。"],["彭部長啓明：我們當然是希望大家能夠一起降下來，例如中南部，因為它大氣的條件比較穩定，沒辦法，那個地方就很高，當然我也必須說，污染源也滿多的，所以這個就是我們要一起努力的。我現在……"],["林委員淑芬：但是你現在……他們已經預告的這個變成12跟24小時，一天平均值是35微克/立方米，你有什麼想法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：你說還要再用力地擰毛巾，擰出好的空氣品質，你有什麼想法？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是，我們對未來的排放量、污染排放量的推估，以前我們是用……"],["林委員淑芬：我是在講標準，我就講這個標準！"],["彭部長啓明：標準？"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你講，你讓我再說一下，不好意思，因為你講遠了，而我時間有限。我的意思是說，你把15微克/立方米降到12微克/立方米，年平均量看起來好像是進步的，可是你24小時、一天的平均值仍然維持在35微克/立方米，這是什麼概念？這個概念很簡單，因為它是一個總量的概念，你一整天吸進去的還是35微克/立方米，所以根據你們上個月發布最新的112年空氣品質監測年報顯示，全臺灣平均是13.7微克/立方米，但是扣除掉陽明站、三義站、恆春站的測值以後，事實上你們的年平均濃度是14.2微克/立方米，而且都還比111年上升，111年是13.1微克/立方米，結果你們112年的濃度是14.2微克/立方米。當然，花東地區我們就不要講了，在這種狀況裡面，你們只有修正這個年平均值，對於一天24小時，你沒有修正，你這個是維持原狀，根本沒有用力擰毛巾，這樣子不算用力擰毛巾啦！看不出來有用力擰毛巾，要擰出好的空氣品質的感覺，沒有進步的誠意。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，那是4月底公布的，6月應該會再修正，我們會有一些進步的空間存在。"],["林委員淑芬：那我再跟你講AQI好了，AQI指標對應到PM2.5  24小時的平均值，將PM2.5 15微克/立方米顯示為良好，你們早已經不符合公共衛生裡面，所有學界研究的科學事實了，你們的AQI指標都不動，結果你說，24小時平均值只要PM2.5在15微克/立方米裡面的都叫做空氣品質良好，但事實上就不是啊！人家公衛的學者說，這樣子對健康的影響就很大了，所以錯誤的良好燈號，讓我們民眾誤判，也沒有因應空氣品質採取正確的應對方式，造成我們民眾的健康防護上的缺漏。","我要舉一個美國的例子為例，美國基於人體健康的這個研究證據，今年2月已經將PM2.5的年均標準值下修為9微克/立方米，同時在5月開始更新他們的AQI指標，PM2.5要在9微克/立方米以下才會顯示為空氣優良的綠色。依據美國環保署的說法，它說他們也是這樣做健康研究，預計調整以後，可望在2032年前增進460億美金的淨健康效益，包括防止4,500人過早死亡，避免29萬個工作天的損失，美國的國家環保局認為對健康空氣投資的每一塊美元，就會產出77美元的效益，投入資源來改善空污是增進全民健康的關鍵，尤其是跟空污相關的死亡率及慢性病，都造成我國醫療資源龐大的負擔，不要忘了，我們的氣管、支氣管和肺癌仍然是臺灣癌症死亡的第一位。我們現在講，確實就是預防勝於治療，你要在健保上支出，不如把這個錢花在空氣污染防制上面，所以在這裡呼籲政府，不要讓污染成本消耗過多的健保資源。","你們大氣司的張副司長以前跟媒體講過，根據國衛院的研究成果，考量到防制成本和經濟效益，所以你們修正的草案才會變成24小時、一天還是維持35微克，雖然年平均值從15μg/m3變成12μg/m3，但我們希望部長考慮的不是只有產業的經濟效益，而是應該再考慮到促進國人全民健康所省下的醫療資源負擔及健保成本，真的是隱性的成本，還有社會裡面為這種慢性病所支付的社會成本真的很高。所以部長，我是希望你在這裡可以承諾我們，用擰毛巾的方式想辦法真正的去加嚴空氣品質，包括降低PM2.5的年平均值以外，還有我剛剛講的24小時的平均值、一天的平均值，不能再繼續維持在35微克，而且跟它聯動的AQI指標也要一併調整，讓民眾真正可以瞭解當下的空品狀況，讓我們可以自己做出健康防護，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我已經在擬了，再給我一點點時間，新的數據大概會出來。"],["林委員淑芬：好。抱歉，我再講一個議題，這個也很重要，跟空污也有關係，從燃煤到SRF，我們建議都應該要建置有害空氣污染物HAPs的測站，因為根據空氣品質監測站設置及監測準則，空品測站的設置和站址的選擇要反映全國性、跨縣市及空氣品質狀況為目的。所以考量要設置在哪裡，包括這個監測站要監測什麼種類，包括污染源的分布、類型、污染物的濃度等等，考量很多，所以你們的監測有很多種監測，包括一般空氣品質監測、工業區空氣品質監測、交通空氣品質監測、國家公園空氣品質監測、環境背景空氣品質監測，還有其他空氣品質監測站，甚至要瞭解特殊污染，還有建置任務型的監測站，還有光化測站、特殊工業區監測站、河川揚塵監測、大氣遙測等等。","但是我今天要跟你講的是，根據環保署委託中研院在2023年所做出來的112年度細懸浮微粒PM2.5化學成分監測及分析計畫指出，他們去監測很多煙道，煙道裡面測出塑化劑（DEHP），這個報告指出煙道採樣採出塑化劑（DEHP），他們提出一個疑問，這是不是跟SRF的使用有關，而且要持續去追蹤和釐清。部長，這件事情為什麼這麼嚴重，你知道嗎？資源循環燃料正在使用，而且是你的重大政策，即將要取代部分的燃煤，現在空品的測站都是為了燃煤的空品在做設置和管制，然後去因應，之後變成SRF要取代掉很一大部分，那麼你現在的測站還有檢驗的方法等等，都不足以因應資源循環燃料（SRF）所造成的空氣污染。","第二個，不要講固定污染源，連移動污染源，像柴油車，也會排放有害的空氣污染物，而我們國內的環境大氣對於HAPs的監測站，就是監測有害空氣污染物的測站都是設置在工業區，去監測他們的排放，但是除了我剛剛講的固定污染源以外，還有交通污染源，還有其他小型的面源，它是溢散出來的，還有都會區裡面的受體，造成民眾暴露在這種有害的空氣污染物裡面，環境部在這部分其實是沒有足夠的監測，所以我在這裡要建議環境部，要設置全國重要性的HAPs的有害空氣污染物的空氣品質監測網絡，包括設置國家型有害空氣污染物的趨勢測站，包括要選定特定區域設置區域任務型的有害空氣品質測站，要監測重要的HAPs的物種。以美國聯邦環保署來講，有害空氣污染物監測的概念書裡面就建議，其實不是建置在污染源的旁邊，而是應該要以污染源對受體的影響，所以不是建置在靠近大型污染源的測點，而應以社區、學校、鄰近污染源的受體，你的選擇是要以具代表性的測點作為測站的位置，而且要定期監測，調整監測區位，確保民眾的健康。","所以我今天跟你講這兩件事情就是空品標準、AQI指標，再來就是因應SRF，你們要讓它取代部分的燃煤，那你的監測、你的管制的方法其實都應該要對應出來，我認為你是認真的人，而且你就宣示說你要擰毛巾，所以我們希望部長讓我們看到你願意擰毛巾、擰出更乾淨的空氣的誠意出來。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。報告委員，有關SRF我的確去看了，您說的問題的確正在發生當中，我也承諾，我們會有一個SRF營運體檢的輔導團，針對所有的廠，從分裝到最後燃燒，以及最後的大氣品質，會全面的體檢，大概三個月內……"],["林委員淑芬：所有的廠是什麼意思？"],["彭部長啓明：就是包含它的分裝，還有最後的燃燒……"],["林委員淑芬：不是，我們不是講SRF的建置廠，而是講使用所有SRF燃料的生產單位。"],["彭部長啓明：對，生產單位，所以你剛才講到最後一個……"],["林委員淑芬：它現在研究就是有塑化劑（DEHP）啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會再來研究一下，因為這個我們過去沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：問題很嚴重喔！空氣裡面連塑化劑都來了。"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我們會去研究一下，再給委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：好，你認真研究一下，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的發言。我現在在這邊作一個宣告：等一下在洪申翰委員質詢結束後處理臨時提案。","現在請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2115937500000005,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.88971875,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":24.820343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.44096875,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.17471875,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.159093750000004,"end":44.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.47971875,"end":52.039718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.42784375,"end":84.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.67596875000001,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.48471875,"end":96.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.18034375,"end":166.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.50284375,"end":182.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.86721875,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.42846875000004,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.42784375,"end":274.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.12721875,"end":278.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.38409375000003,"end":317.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.00659375000004,"end":322.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.15346875,"end":327.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.11471875,"end":329.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.75159375000004,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.18846875,"end":342.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.28971875,"end":342.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.66096875,"end":344.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.28096875,"end":344.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.31034375,"end":352.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.73971875,"end":359.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.41784375000003,"end":359.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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各位大家午安 是不是請我們這個彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":12.915,"end":32.696,"text":"林委員好部長你好到目前為止我們衛網委員會三個部長看得出來你真的是相當相當的認真這一點我還是要給你肯定但是部長你在新上任的時候你召開記者會的時候宣布了四大重點政策其中一個政策是空氣品質標準的再檢討"},{"start":35.499,"end":51.4,"text":"你所使用的語言是說你會想辦法像擰毛巾一樣再擰出一點進步的可能你是這樣說的吧?是是那我今天就要跟你討論如何再更用力的擰毛巾擰出更乾淨的空氣"},{"start":52.481,"end":73.549,"text":"那我想你講這個應該上任前啦幕僚上任後啦幕僚應該已經跟你講了在你上任以前的4月29號環境部就預告修正空氣品質的標準草案其中這個PM2.5的標準年平均值要將由每立方米15微克加鹽到12微克"},{"start":76.71,"end":87.354,"text":"但是24小時的平均值仍然維持每立法米35維克但是呢我今天要跟你講就空氣品質標準他會連動到空氣品質指標的AQI"},{"start":93.513,"end":93.533,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":111.664,"end":129.466,"text":"那你們呢在2022年委託了民調公司調查那民眾感受到空氣品質變化的主要依據除了天空目測的能見度環境的意味還有身體到底有沒有不舒服以外其實它就是根據你們公布的空氣品質"},{"start":130.768,"end":130.968,"text":"林淑芬議員"},{"start":161.789,"end":182.421,"text":"那只有超過到橘燈才會對人體健康不好但是呢我今天跟你講是因為2018年國衛院跟你們共同發表了PM2.5氣旋伏為例特徵對民眾健康影響的研究國衛院本土研究"},{"start":183.899,"end":189.683,"text":"他透過減量成本和健康效益評估發現全台灣PM2.5的濃度減量到15維克一立方米的時候那他可以避免1843個中風可以讓166個急性心肌梗塞避免掉可以減少568個肺癌可以712位的慢性阻塞肺病的個案可以避免發生"},{"start":214.479,"end":241.24,"text":"那可以增進27210年的平均餘命可以增進30282年的健康人生而可以節省健保29億8千萬元肺癌可以避免的死亡數如果把它降到10維克每立方米的標準以下的話它避免的死亡人數是638人"},{"start":243.542,"end":262.792,"text":"然後在15維克他標準下他是可以減少死亡345人那10維克是可以少死638個15維克是只剩下345個所以要講這個是說只差5維克就可以避免死亡人數就可以少一倍這樣子"},{"start":264.468,"end":273.958,"text":"所以這個你說 空氣品質標準重不重要 很重要因為你國家的標準定在哪裡決定了國民的健康啊 那健康攸關了每一個家庭啊"},{"start":278.464,"end":303.973,"text":"那也關係到健保的支出啊所以這個國會院的報告在2018年的建議對PM2.5對健康的影響在相當低的濃度能有作用都應該要降到WHO標準年平均10維克日平均25維克這是國會院的報告他還是建議我們說我們的年平均還是應該要10維克而日平均應該是25維克"},{"start":308.394,"end":325.952,"text":"那事實上WHO的這個標準,國會院建議的這個WHO的這個標準事實上人家WHO的標準都變了WHO的標準變成說年平均是5維克但是一天24小時的平均是15維克"},{"start":328.134,"end":330.635,"text":"他們已經變了這4年過去了但是我們要追上WHO的舊標準我們的阿旺只能看著他們的車尾燈還是一樣在追車尾燈捏部長你說還看不到喔"},{"start":345.863,"end":366.161,"text":"對,第一個WHO是一個建議的標準目前還沒有一個國家真的用5維克單純是一個指標那我在講說看上一次的人家在那個10維克還有日平均25維克10維克也是我想達到的目標但是問題是說我們現在以現在我們幾個空品去來看花東"},{"start":367.802,"end":384.595,"text":"這麼乾淨的地方也只有7到8那我們西半部這麼密集那我們過去呢這個8年從20大概降到13點多大概降了7左右7維克左右其實花了蠻多錢的沒有啦20沒有降到13點多啦北部空瓶區12點2竹藐13啦中部16點5雲嘉南是8點6高屏17點5啦"},{"start":390.419,"end":391.86,"text":"但是你現在他們已經預告的這個變成"},{"start":420.793,"end":444.889,"text":"十二跟二十四小時一天平均值三十五維克你有什麼想法?你說他在用力的擰毛巾擰出好的空氣品質你有什麼想法?第一個是說我們對未來的這個排放量污染的排放量的推估以前我們是用直接展覽的方式我現在講標準你就講這個標準我現在跟你講你讓我再說一下不好意思因為你講遠我時間有限"},{"start":446.77,"end":461.037,"text":"我意思是說你把15維克降到12維克年平均量看起來好像是進步的可是呢可是呢你24小時一天的平均值仍然維持35維克這有什麼概念這個概念很簡單啊因為它是一個總量的概念你一整天你吸進去的還是35維克啊"},{"start":468.061,"end":476.265,"text":"所以根據你們上個月發布的最新的112年空氣品質監測年報顯示你們雖然全台灣平均是13.7但是扣除掉陽明站、三義站、恆春站的測值以後事實上你們的年平均濃度是14.2而且都還比111年上升"},{"start":491.391,"end":514.072,"text":"一百一十一年是十三點一結果你一百一十二年的濃度是十四點二而且當然我們講花東地區都不要講啦所以在這種狀況裡面你們只有修正這個年平均值對於一天二十四小時你沒有修正你這個是為此原狀根本沒有用力擰毛巾"},{"start":515.174,"end":521.101,"text":"這樣子不算用力擰毛巾啊看不出來有用力擰毛巾要擰出好的空氣品質的感覺那沒有進步的誠意"},{"start":524.13,"end":548.335,"text":"有啦,委員那個是4月底公佈的啦。5月我們會,6月應該會再修正啦。我們會有一些進步的空間會存在啦。好,那我再跟你講AQI好了。AQI指標它對應到PM2.5 24小時的平均值。然後將PM2.5 15微克顯示為良好。你們早已經不符合公共衛生裡面所有學界研究的科學事實了。"},{"start":548.875,"end":565.581,"text":"你們的AQI指標都不動結果你說24小時平均值只要是15維克裡面的PM2.515維克都叫做空氣品質良好事實上就不是啊人家公衛的學者說這樣子對健康影響就很大了啊"},{"start":566.221,"end":585.475,"text":"所以錯誤的良好的燈號讓我們民眾誤判也沒有因應空氣品質採取正確的應對方式造成我們民眾的健康防護上的缺漏我要舉一個美國為例美國基於人體健康這個研究證據在今年2月已經將PM2.5的年均標準值下修為9維克同時在5月開始更新他們的AQI指標"},{"start":595.302,"end":618.591,"text":"PM2.5要在9維克以下才會顯示為空氣優良的綠色那依據美國環保署的說法他說他們也是這樣做啊做健康研究預計調整以後可望在2032年前增進460億美金的近健康效益包括防止4500人過早死亡"},{"start":620.552,"end":649.295,"text":"避免29萬個工作天的損失美國的國家環保局認為對健康空氣投資每一塊錢的美元就會產出77美元的效益投入資源來改善空污是增進全民健康的關鍵尤其是跟空污相關的死亡率還有慢性病都造成我國醫療龐大的這個資源的負擔不要忘了我們的氣管支氣管和肺癌"},{"start":650.095,"end":669.993,"text":"當然是台灣癌症死亡的第一位那我們現在講確實就是預防勝於治療嘛你要在健保上支出不如把這個錢花在我們的這個空氣防治上面所以在這裡呼籲政府不要讓污染成本消耗過多的健保資源那"},{"start":670.774,"end":690.824,"text":"你們的大棄屍以前張副司長跟媒體講過根據國衛院的這個研究成果考量到防治成本和經濟效益所以你們修正了草案才會變成24小時一天還是維持35維克雖然年平均值從15變成12但我們希望"},{"start":691.164,"end":712.119,"text":"部長你考慮的不是只有產業的經濟效益而是應該再講促進國人全民健康所省下來醫療資源負擔及這個健保成本真的是隱性的成本還有社會裡面每個為這種慢性病所支付的社會成本真的很高所以部長我是希望你在這裡可以承諾我們"},{"start":713.18,"end":729.75,"text":"用擰毛巾的方式想辦法加嚴真正的去加嚴空氣品質包括過降低PM2.5的年平均值以外還要我剛剛講的24小時的平均值一天的平均值不能再繼續維持在35維克"},{"start":732.452,"end":748.171,"text":"而且他跟他聯動的AQI指標也要一併調整讓我們民眾真正可以瞭解當下的空瓶狀況而讓我們可以自己做出健康防護可以嗎委員我已經在擰了再給我一點點時間新的數據大概會出來"},{"start":749.833,"end":765.614,"text":"抱歉我再講一個議題這個也是很重要因為就是說跟空污有關就從燃煤到SRF我們要建議都應該要建制有害空氣污染物HPS的策戰因為"},{"start":766.195,"end":769.977,"text":"根據空氣品質監測站設置及監測標準我們這個空品測站的設置和站址的這個選擇要反映全國性跨縣市及空氣品質變化趨勢為目的所以考量要設置在哪裡包括這個監測站要監測什麼種類包括污染源的分布類型污染物的濃度等等所以你們是考量很多所以你們的監測有很多種監測嘛包括"},{"start":795.692,"end":802.196,"text":"您們的一般空氣品質監測工業區的空氣品質監測交通的空氣品質監測國家公園空氣品質監測還有環境背景的空氣品質監測還有其他空氣品質監測站甚至呢要了解特殊污染的建置的還有任務型的監測站然後光化測站特殊工業區監測站河川陽城監測大氣窯測等等但是呢我今天要跟你講的是根據環保署委託中研院"},{"start":825.752,"end":837.16,"text":"在2023年所做出來的一百一十二年度系選府為例PM2.5化學成分監測及分析計劃指出我現在講喔他們去監測很多煙道煙道裡面測出BEHP塑化劑"},{"start":849.761,"end":865.051,"text":"這個報告指出煙道採樣採出DEHP塑化劑他們提出一個疑問這是不是跟SRF的使用有關而且要持續去追蹤和釐清那這事情為什麼這麼嚴重你知道嗎部長"},{"start":866.358,"end":881.789,"text":"資源循環燃料它正在而且是你的重大政策即將要取代部分的燃煤現在空品的策戰都是為了燃煤的空品在做的設置和管制然後去因應"},{"start":882.89,"end":897.398,"text":"那你SRF要變成很大一部分要取代掉一大部分的那麼它你現在的策戰還有檢驗的方法等等都不足以因應支援循環燃料就SRF所造成的空氣汙染第二個"},{"start":898.939,"end":905.585,"text":"不要講這個固定污染源連移動污染源像柴油車也會排放這個有害的空氣污染物而我們國內環境大氣對於這個HAPS的監測站就是監測有害空氣污染物的這個測站的設置都是設在工業區去看到排放"},{"start":920.399,"end":935.357,"text":"但是除了我剛剛講固定污染源以外還有交通污染源還有其他小型的麵源它是溢散出來的還有多位區裡面的受體造成民眾暴露在這種有害的空氣污染物裡面"},{"start":936.138,"end":952.027,"text":"那我們環境部在這一部分其實是沒有足夠的監測的都沒有所以我在這裡要建議環境部要設置全國重要性的HAPS的有害空氣污染物的空氣品質監測網路包括設置國家型的有害空氣污染物的趨勢策戰"},{"start":957.91,"end":981.656,"text":"包括要選定特定區域設置區域任務型的有害空氣品質測算要監測重要的HA、PS的物種那以美國聯邦這個環保署來講有害空氣污染物的監測的概念書裡面他就建議其實不是建置在污染源的旁邊而是應該要以受體"},{"start":982.756,"end":991.501,"text":"他對於污染、污染源對受體的影響所以不是建置在靠近大型污染源的策點而應以社區、學校、鄰近污染源的受體就是我會呼吸到這個受體他要據你的選擇要具代表性的策點"},{"start":1003.587,"end":1026.889,"text":"做為策戰的這個位置而且要定期監測調整監測區位確保這個民眾的健康所以我今天跟你講這兩件事情就是空瓶標準然後AQI指標再來就是因應SRF你們要讓他取代部分的燃煤那你的監測你的這個這個管制的方法其實都應該要對應出來"},{"start":1029.071,"end":1032.634,"text":"所以我在我認為你是認真的人而且你就宣誓說你要擰毛巾所以我們希望部長給我們看到你願意擰毛巾擰出更乾淨的空氣的誠意出來"},{"start":1044.462,"end":1073.079,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我不知道委員那個SRF吼我的確去看了您說的問題的確正在發生當中那我也承諾我們會有一個SRF的營運體檢的輔導團針對所有的廠從這個分裝到最後燃燒最後的大氣品質會全面的體檢大概三個月內所有的廠是什麼意思就是包含它的這個分裝還有最後燃燒不是餒 我們不是講SRF這個建築廠對對對我有提這個SRF他是講使用了所有SRF的這個燃料的"},{"start":1073.599,"end":1074.02,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"153720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b2e8b3f66593eff7f3bd234b5abfe8c9ee56b966b91e1130086e5678e26938075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:09:26 - 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謝謝主席 本期邀請我們文化部部長李部長有請李部長"},{"start":16.089,"end":41.957,"text":"部長你好最近最受矚目的英雄人物就是NVIDIA執行長黃仁勳有一幕我認為印象非常深刻有一個記者用英文來問黃仁勳問題黃仁勳給他反問回去說你不會說台語嗎?記者才感盲說會不會?所以短短幾句對話我想已經透露出"},{"start":43.849,"end":68.188,"text":"臺語就是本土語言的一個危機我給部長做個參考在2020年的時候那時候行政院長是蘇貞昌我就在總質詢的時候來請蘇院長說政府要來重視臺語的危機因為當時沒有國家的調查我是用一些民間的調查還有"},{"start":69.429,"end":74.595,"text":"提到聯合國的標準我來判定台語有出現危機一直到2022年"},{"start":76.314,"end":105.774,"text":"現在我們文化部自己發表的國家語言發展報告正式啦定調啦第一次官方來聲明台語有危機啦就台語出現危機而且等級是跟客語甚至馬族語是同樣瀕臨危險的程度啦部長應該知道這個事情啦是這都是三級起條就是說我們在分級裡面就是確定有危險我覺得台、台語最大的危機就是說沒有人感覺他有危險"},{"start":107.335,"end":107.535,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":125.686,"end":136.478,"text":"台語的縮讀寫早就很不樂觀了啦 人最簡單的聽啦那40歲以上聽到台語的90% 現在存多少 存47%啦 直接腰斬啦 40位醫生聽到台語的 存沒一半啦"},{"start":142.558,"end":163.736,"text":"但是我剛才跟你說的就是說我們都過去不知道說台語有什麼危險所以你不會去重視我們知道客家有危險我們也知道原住民有危險所以政府投注很大的心力和資源以國中語言的文化園區我們來做一個參考部長我給你看一下客家文化園區有24個原住民文化園區有30個"},{"start":168.68,"end":174.866,"text":"臺語的文化園區有一個,這個又不是你政府做的,這個是民間公益團體自己做的。政府一開始幫你補助後來他就要靠自己了。請問部長,我們文化部對臺語發展的有什麼發展,你自己知道嗎?15億,那有效果嗎?"},{"start":193.12,"end":207.81,"text":"每年遞減,就是使用臺語的人越來越少了。因為以前,另外一個調查,這是民間音樂學者的調查,30年前家庭裡面輸用台語的超過70%,現在家庭裡面,家裡面講台語的只有70%,這個下去,台語就沒有了。"},{"start":215.964,"end":224.107,"text":"我常常說他最大的危機就是沒有人敢給他費用所以政府也沒有有成果他還要再重視還要再推動加上是啦不要再說我們現在有一些年輕人所以我在建議部長我們文化部應該要參考我們以前在推動的契義部長部長是客家人嘛我們推動契義推動原住民的這個"},{"start":245.239,"end":247.601,"text":"部長本席要在這裡跟你爭取到台南"},{"start":265.76,"end":291.3,"text":"聽說部長你喜歡到臺南我常常去我聽說部長你說你大概每兩三個月就到臺南我很多活動是跟臺南一起去的那表示部長一定也喜歡臺南的一些文化的氛圍和氣息我們台南就有一個很適合的地方現在包括臺南市議員都在把臺南市政府請出的就是中廣在臺南之前有一個天馬電台這以前是所謂對肥廣播的"},{"start":293.521,"end":299.464,"text":"現在沒有講話了,現在台灣有一大群人在你親講還在講話,所以這個電台現在沒有了但是這個討題很大很好,我們應該要專業設立文化群組,尤其是台語文化群組,這非常適合而且這個討題的土地使用分區本地就是創意文化專用區"},{"start":317.772,"end":327.28,"text":"市政府也有這樣的一個意願我會請台南市政府現在黃偉哲市長的團隊來跟我們文化部請出也拜到部長來支持這樣有沒有部長其實我們已經準備去看了這件事情我已經知道了其實我很多台南的朋友你如果來看我吃完我帶你去吃肉燒飯好不好我們已經準備去看了帶你去吃牛肉湯好"},{"start":343.773,"end":343.893,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":363.038,"end":363.158,"text":"謝謝林俊憲委員"}]}},{"id":"153718","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153718","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d52167470c7f640666f3bd234b5abfe8c9ee56b966b91e1130b39180705a255bfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:59:28 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部長請"},{"start":6.598,"end":30.638,"text":"好本席針對軍隊文化跟心理輔導預防機制的矛盾跟失衡啊本席剛才呢這個聽了您的質詢之後我覺得難怪我們的這個心腹工作會崩潰第一個沒有釐清到底我的心腹工作是一個醫療行為還是一般的軍事業務的運作這是第一個"},{"start":31.599,"end":47.976,"text":"第二,你一直尋求外援的諮商,他們確實是專業,但是他們是不懂軍中文化的,軍中文化是封閉的,高壓的,我們軍人是24小時365天工作的,在軍中之外的。"},{"start":48.857,"end":65.522,"text":"是依照牢機法所以這一般的心理治療師他可以知道這樣的軍中文化嗎所以你一直尋求外援當然沒有辦法來了解這個我們軍中的弟兄心理智商應該怎麼符合我們的生態去做諮詢所以縱觀來講"},{"start":68.283,"end":97.415,"text":"部長跟我們現在的政戰局長你們叫做外行好所以呢我針對這幾個議題三個第一個心腹功能力不足的二進循環第三你們號稱的心理輔導三級房主本期認為這個房主呈現了三缺缺少心理專業人員缺少深談時間缺少空心腹空間的基層困境第三心腹工作是醫療行為還是軍隊管理的組織治理這一點是重點部長你也必須"},{"start":98.175,"end":100.138,"text":"很清楚的在這個質詢台當中去明確的表達這樣的主張或者你們拉拉扎扎的剛才這個局長這個爬出了我們維安徵後12個樣態在錯誤的心理輔導的一個"},{"start":115.357,"end":123.979,"text":"你們的認定上他是一般軍務那你就是這個叫什麼你們叫做人道關懷啊心理輔導叫做人道關懷跟我在醫療臨床的心理諮商這是兩碼子的事難怪我的國軍軍袍會整個的心理崩潰當我看到那個數據從今年1月到5月我們累積了快18、19個案例你第19個案例是我拒文"},{"start":145.612,"end":156.296,"text":"再來在您上任之後兩個案例那是多麼讓人家震撼跟慚愧的畫面竟然你上來之後我一個弟兄就活生生的從國防部部本部給我跳下來"},{"start":158.956,"end":176.73,"text":"這個如果在我地方首長阿或哪一個我們這個區域選出的他不趕快不會被民意壓垮才快竟然我們可以毫無動靜的我們的局長還拉拉扎扎的講了這12項的爬書以為你在做研究工作阿"},{"start":177.824,"end":198.204,"text":"那部長您是這個國安也好律師也好對各諮商啊真的是完全是真的是外行所以導致我的同袍他在整個軍備的前線在應戰的時候結果我的心裡他是人耶我們同袍是人耶他的壓力無所無所依戒"},{"start":199.105,"end":222.562,"text":"好,在這最後我有具體的要求什麼叫做我們人力不足的二線循環連監察院的報告都說我國軍的心腹機制是流於形勢喔服從跟紀律是軍人的目標軍中生活的封閉跟高壓因為金石案、金金案、金粹案以及加上我今天的少者而造成軍中人力的短缺工作量過於繁重而衍生不合理的情況國軍的編制從45萬精檢到15萬8千"},{"start":227.065,"end":255.953,"text":"再加上我臺海局勢的急轉直下．國防壓力的巨聲．人力比以前少．但我任務是比以前多的．現在你們各位長官部長．你們現在所有的都是舊思維．希望我們凡事都能兼顧．雖然不願正式跟眼裡合理的．這個任務分配．心腹工作長期未落實．這就剛才本行覺得非常．竟然你們可以這麼的淡定的處理．從1月到5會有17位智商．"},{"start":256.673,"end":278.584,"text":"以稅喔!然後呢有兩起是在你任內你上任之後就兩起喔還有我據聞沒有公布的在這一個禮拜一又一名同儕養藥而自殺未遂所以你們的零智商從2016年起現在累計136人好我們看這個表本辦公室爬書出來你最後的那17、18從1月到5月"},{"start":280.985,"end":301.11,"text":"這張表然後呢再來我們的所謂新府三級房主是三缺這當中的缺少專業人員你們現在長期的推動叫做心理輔導三級房主你們什麼長期房主呢初級的發掘預防啊我們這叫做二級專業輔導啊如果真不行就送醫院了"},{"start":301.61,"end":321.704,"text":"那幾乎就是就幾乎是精神精神病的狀態了怎麼會是有這個這個這到第三級就已經是無不可逆的醫療醫療的處置了好我軍中的第一線負責的輔導長本身就缺乏專業的心腹症狀你知道我們輔導長平均多少多少歲"},{"start":322.585,"end":324.486,"text":"24到28歲耶幾乎一個碩士剛畢業耶他要面對比自己年長的這軍事官你覺得他合適來做心理輔導嗎"},{"start":334.795,"end":335.356,"text":"國軍警檢後面臨對岸評判：林岱樺"},{"start":355.399,"end":370.127,"text":"兼用呢就是這個慘白的牆壁門窗上鎖且毫無溫暖所以呢現在你們的三級防築了叫做人人是自殺防制守門人的一個口號再來你是要以部隊為重還是以人為重當領導與輔導身份發生衝突的時候該如何是好"},{"start":374.309,"end":375.17,"text":"最後30秒好不好 抱歉"},{"start":400.037,"end":426.024,"text":"千萬十萬十五萬人齁你全軍種十五萬人但是你只有紙張的心理證照69張也就是一位心腹員你要負責2289個心腹工作你只有69張合格的好那我再爬書你們現在叫做你們這個人道關懷啊軍中當中的心腹工具跟我民間醫療臨床的心理諮商工具我就把它爬書出來"},{"start":426.764,"end":436.507,"text":"你現在軍方叫做大兵手記然後再來叫做檢視、量表、撕測是用手機LINE群處理喔最後叫互談紀錄表那民間跟醫療的臨床是什麼面對面的諮商、多元型態的藝術治療及電腦的檢測評估的系統最後把你所得的這個樣態個案追蹤、網路化的大數據的樣態分析"},{"start":455.692,"end":464.178,"text":"最後這一張我的軍職人員跟專業心腹人員的16萬的士官兵對照69張的專業我的預算你是1700億的一個人事費對比240萬的這個心理輔訓訓練費這張表240萬是你們提供的好最後本期的具體建議你的部分是不是順便給他們我最後講因為這個其實沒有人這樣講過他們"},{"start":483.67,"end":488.135,"text":"第一個,我具體建議,擔任輔導長、新副官一定要具備心理諮商師或社工師的證照。我個人主張從軍醫系統,你凡是要軍醫當中有心理諮商系、有社工系,你要畢業一定要拿到證照。他們才能夠執業,你現在畢業不用拿到證照,你一直尋求外援。"},{"start":504.813,"end":528.945,"text":"只有你在軍醫系統,第二個,接近美國軍醫的心理系統與隨軍的神職人員,所以呢在這邊本國是多元宗教文化,所以呢研議在軍營當中設置小型的檢疫參拜,是一個可以沉澱的這個場域,比照我們各大醫院跟機場。最後,限期改善新衛中心的內部佈置。第四點,在你的陣戰組織下,把心理輔導,心理資深,單獨一個處。"},{"start":533.447,"end":533.587,"text":"請提供書面給國防部長"},{"start":555.737,"end":573.311,"text":"剛剛委員提出了三缺,我想我有相當程度的認同,那我們會按照委員的指示我們來積極的研發。那你認為他是一個醫療行為還是一個軍務的操作?林委員你比較少來我們這邊,我們時間真的要控管,抱歉一下,因為他今天有軍談,他當然要離開,其他委員還要...部長,你再繼續,如果你不重視我們的醫療就會一直跳,你還憑什麼,你有什麼資格做我三軍統帥之下的海陸空三軍的領導人?"},{"start":583.98,"end":585.59,"text":"好謝謝謝謝林大洋委員各位"}]}},{"id":"153717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153717","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5d6db87c60499d72cd6a1f14e6772be7cee56b966b91e1130720e17fc406f2b395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:53:43 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11:04:34","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:53:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:04:34+08:00","duration":651,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時54分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家辛苦了，順著昨天的科偵法，今天進入通保法，我的立場是一致的──打詐四法加速立法。為了強化偵辦手段，給予更強大的打詐武器，但在某一個層面，我想今天與會的委員都提到，對於人權的保障、隱私的保護，我認為確實在子法、在更有層次的一些分析上，我們還要在條文中再做補強。","我也分享，為什麼我覺得打詐四法必須先通過，確實我們面臨詐欺案逐年攀升，這已經是各類刑案之冠，以簡報右邊這個表格，5年來詐欺罪共偵結了50萬7,859人，當中63%、六成三是以電信詐欺恐嚇案最多，所以我們需要強化偵辦的工具，我同意。","其中詐欺案件是網路犯罪之冠，這是我進一步去調閱內政部警政署的資料，請看簡報左邊的圖，四大類的網路犯罪，包含詐欺、妨害名譽、妨害電腦使用，以及侵害智慧財產權四大類，後三類都是逐年下降的，有的下降比率是越來越高，譬如侵害智慧財產權，其實它已經下降到只剩下6.9%，這個是很好的，我們透過各種管道去宣導，所以智財權的部分已經下降很多，但唯有一類──詐欺類，在網路犯罪上一直攀升，來到三成四，所以我們當然不得不支持今天的工具，讓你們更能靈活的使用。","這一次的修法重點我就不再贅述，也透過這次的增修，我們可以擴大實施通訊監察之罪的大概是13部法律，數十項都可以擴大使用，我也不贅述。","剛剛我非常同意，順著佳濱召委所說的，雖然我們通保法的修法不涉及內容，但是畢竟對於隱私的影響不可說不大。關於子法您剛也提到很多，包括當事人通知、確保人權等會用子法來規範，一般來講，法律通過之後6個月內提出子法，但是我認為，如果你們不能夠更早把子法的方向或者是期程在這裡承諾我們，早一點完備，其實我們要授權給你們，連我自己是執政黨的委員都覺得有所保留。所以相關的子法有多少？你們進入研議或者是已經有的期程是如何？來，就教於部長，你要先讓我們知道，安我們的心，否則就是一個空白的授權。"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於這個子法，在草案第十四條之一的第六項，子法這部分還是要法務部會同……"],["吳委員思瑤：會有幾個相關子法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：法條規定視需要……"],["吳委員思瑤：視需要是幾個？你們現在都沒有方向「茫茫渺渺」？你們去準備一下資料好嗎？我們等一下要逐條了耶！因為我們每個條文相關……"],["鄭部長銘謙：按照施行細則來處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：當然、當然啊！那你會有幾個相關的施行細則？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就一個。"],["吳委員思瑤：一個就好了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：一個。"],["吳委員思瑤：一個就夠了，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：一個授權的子法。"],["吳委員思瑤：那你們會拖到6個月之後，修法完備6個月之後才推出嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會努力，我們會努力在6個月內完成。"],["吳委員思瑤：我覺得6個月是at least……對不起，是給你們最長的期限耶！"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這個一旦下去……要更快吧！我覺得你們可以努力在3個月內把子法完備出來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們努力。"],["吳委員思瑤：這涉及隱私保護、涉及人權的保障，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，我們努力。"],["吳委員思瑤：努力3個月好嗎？這是我個人的期待。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我會來追蹤，如果只是一個施行細則的話，那搞不好是更快、更嚴謹啊！","好，進入我今天另外關切的，未來如果修法通過，網路流量的紀錄可有效、有利於偵查四大類，包含網路恐嚇信、假投資信件、資安攻擊性，還有我現在要論述的兒少性私密影像，昨天我也有在衛環委員會提案，針對兒少性剝削的相關條例協商已經有擴大要求。","我來跟您報告昨天通過的結論，也就是被害人不需要自己蒐集性影像，關於被害的那些部分，要讓查緝犯罪更有利的話，就必須建立一個性影像數位的鑑識資料庫，這是昨天的結論。而且也新增了3個犯罪樣態，購買、下載都一併要被懲處，就是無故重製兒少性影像、支付對價持有兒少性影像，以及支付對價來觀賞兒少的性影像，這個是昨天協商完的，我是建議部長要去follow我們昨天另外一套相關法律的協商進度。","我們來看看兒少性剝削的犯罪。左邊這個表格告訴了我們兒少性剝削的案例有7成是運用網路社群、通訊軟體或其他的社群平台來犯罪，所以當然社群平台的偵辦很重要。而右邊這個數字我覺得非常驚悚，這是美國的資料顯示，全球兒少性剝削的影像居然來自臺灣IP的通報數量，從2019年的三萬三千多件到2022年來到7萬2,902件，成長了2.3倍。我不想讓臺灣冠上這種是不是兒少性剝削影像的來源國，我們要努力去洗刷這樣子的罪名，所以網路的IP成為調查的重中之重。","我個人一直有一個遺憾，當我看到為了打詐、防詐、抗詐，行政院可以一次提出四法，一個專法、一個科偵法、一個通保法，對不對？我們四法一起來處理它。但是對於性影像犯罪的雙軌防制，目前只對於兒少的受害案件建立起比較高的防護作為跟偵辦的刑度增加，但是對於成人受害的案件，這一次並沒有一致性地跟上來。所以我在這裡提出呼籲跟要求，我過去都在其他委員會，我在教育文化委員會沒有機會跟法務部有比較多的溝通跟建議的機會，有關性影像相關的犯罪，目前是散落在4個法律，刑法，還有兒少性剝削防制條例、性侵害犯罪防治法，還有犯罪被害人保護法，其實吳思瑤本人我一直在倡議，我已經倡議了兩年多，我們需要有一個性私密影像犯罪防制的專法，才能夠從兒少到成人，從提高罰則到前端所有的建置、預防、調查、偵辦跟刑度，我一直認為要有一部專法，就比照我們打詐四法有一個更新的高位，代表國家的重視，那我不曉得部長，因為您新上任，你對於我的這個倡議，我已經講了兩年多了，您認不認為可以來研議有一個專法來擴大針對性私密影像的犯罪防制，不只現在著重兒少，對於成人的也要一起來強化防護？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為刑法有專章在處理，這部分我們再……"],["吳委員思瑤：就是散列各法啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們再來檢視看看，因為販賣私影像這部分在刑法第三百一十九條……"],["吳委員思瑤：我都知道啊！我都參與啊！那你覺得如果一套專法……因為現在你看到都在保護兒少的比較多，可是事實上性影像被流散、被重製、被有價觀覽的受害者多數是成人耶！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，所以這部分我們這次在通保法也有修正，就是委員關心的成人這部分也列入了通訊監察……"],["吳委員思瑤：好吧！大家都頭痛醫頭，腳痛醫腳，好！沒有關係，我不會放棄努力，我認為我看到了這樣一個犯罪行為的……很不幸的，它的發展趨勢就如同詐欺、詐騙案類，我們可以用一個更全觀的方式來統合性的處理它，我還是認為我們可以研議一下好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們後續再努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝部長。所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時，要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員陳冠廷、翁曉玲、吳宗憲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.11534375000000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.57096875,"end":12.079718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.906593750000003,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.84284375,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.609718750000003,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.76159375,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.48159375,"end":56.393468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.93346875,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.07159375,"end":92.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.60721875,"end":153.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.16721875000002,"end":173.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.70409375,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.22909375,"end":213.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.85409375,"end":221.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.53221875000003,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.80596875,"end":230.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.76284375,"end":230.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.96534375000002,"end":231.64034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.57659375000003,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.52096875,"end":249.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.32534375,"end":250.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.28284375,"end":251.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.63284375,"end":253.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.80971875000003,"end":258.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.15096875,"end":261.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.87971875,"end":267.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.01471875000004,"end":271.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.54596875000004,"end":268.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.17034375000003,"end":272.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.62971875,"end":276.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.43909375000004,"end":279.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.16471875,"end":280.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.66221875,"end":282.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.26534375,"end":286.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.39159375,"end":285.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.56846875,"end":290.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.24721875,"end":296.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.07346875,"end":295.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.35159375,"end":301.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.04721875,"end":302.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.70534375,"end":307.15596875},{"speaker":"SPE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個表格告訴了我們兒少性剝削的案例呢有七成是運用網路社群通訊軟體或其他的社群平台來犯罪所以當然"},{"start":412.865,"end":431.075,"text":"社群平台的偵辦很重要而右邊這個數字我覺得非常的驚悚這是美國的資料顯示全球的兒少性剝削的影像居然來自台灣IP的通報數量從2019的33,000多件到2022來到72,902件成長了2.3倍"},{"start":442.884,"end":459.501,"text":"我不想讓台灣慣上這種是不是兒少性剝削影像的來源國我們要努力去洗刷這樣子的一個罪名所以網路的IP成為調查的重中之重下一頁下一頁再下一頁"},{"start":463.001,"end":477.356,"text":"我個人一直有一個遺憾當我看到為了打詐防詐抗詐行政院可以一次提出四法一個專法一個科證法一個通保法對不對我們四法一起來處理它"},{"start":478.957,"end":505.15,"text":"但是呢對於性影像的犯罪的雙軌防治目前只對於兒少的受害案件建立起比較高的防護作為跟偵辦的刑度的增加但是對於成人受害的案件這一次並沒有一致性的跟上來所以我是在這裡提出呼籲跟要求"},{"start":506.15,"end":528.511,"text":"我過去都在其他委員會我在教育文化委員會我沒有機會跟法務部有比較多的這個溝通跟建議的機會有關性影像相關的犯罪目前是散落在四個法律嘛刑法還有兒少性剝削防止條例性侵害犯罪防治法還有犯罪被害人的保護法"},{"start":529.312,"end":538.231,"text":"其實吳思瑤本人我本席我一直在倡議我已經倡議了兩年多我們需要有一個信"},{"start":539.784,"end":567.867,"text":"信私密影像犯罪防治的專法才能夠從兒少到成人從提高法則到前端所有的建制預防調查偵辦跟刑度我一直認為要有一部專法就比較我們打架司法有一個更新的高位代表國家的重視那我不曉得部長因為您新上任你對於我的這個倡議"},{"start":569.628,"end":583.105,"text":"我已經講了三年了兩年多了您認不認為可以來演繹有一個專法來擴大針對性私密影像的犯罪防治不只現在著重而少對於成人的也要一起來強化防護"},{"start":585.083,"end":585.964,"text":"我都知道啊。我都參與啊。"},{"start":602.86,"end":615.59,"text":"因為現在你看到都在保護兒少的比較多可是事實上性影像被流散被重置被有價的關懶的受害者多數是成人"},{"start":616.691,"end":644.657,"text":"所以這部分我們這次在通訊保障也有修正就是這部分委員關心這個承認的這部分也列入了列入了那個通訊監察大家都頭痛一頭腳痛一腳好沒有關係我不會放棄努力我認為我看到了這樣一個犯罪行為的很不幸的它的發展趨勢就如同詐欺、詐騙案類我們可以用一個更全觀的方式來統合性的處理它我還是認為我們可以研議一下好嗎"},{"start":645.537,"end":646.099,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝吳委員 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5d2cfa7ae0b75f3532248f66a23a11b53ee56b966b91e11303fd1aa64397e0cb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:56:05 - 11:03:33","影片長度":"00:07:28","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:56:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T11:03:33+08:00","duration":448,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":607,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時56分）謝謝主席，我請總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁早。我想今天很高興能夠再看到總裁來報告相關的……"],["楊總裁金龍：我也很高興，很高興看到……"],["黃委員珊珊：也希望在新政府上任之後，我們還是提供穩健而且有建設性的建議。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：第一個，央行在113年5月份公布的金融穩定報告裡面，說不動產的市場現在回溫，而且價格居高，民眾購屋負擔增加，所以總裁你覺得現在的房市熱絡是好事還是壞事？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果說……"],["黃委員珊珊：是好事？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，如果說它是基本面所支撐的，那就是好事；如果說是炒作出來的，那就不好。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我記得上次在質詢您的時候，政府提出了平均地權條例，希望能夠打房，但是同時在大選期間又推出了新青安貸款，這兩個政策某個程度來說其實是有點自相矛盾。房市不斷的飆高，當然股票也飆高，表示臺灣內部的經濟狀況是不錯的，錢只能拿去買股、炒房，不然要做什麼？另外就是投資詐騙一大堆，所以我的問題是房市熱絡，新青安貸款有沒有所謂的帶動這一波房市炒作的原因？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：預期心理一定有啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：預期心理當然是有啦！那這個就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為大家都覺得再不買就會更貴，所以趕快去買，尤其是新青安貸款在4月份單個月就6,879戶，貸款了五百多億，總共現在已經到5萬3,000戶，總金額已經四千多億，所以接下來看起來房市沒有辦法冷卻，或者是依照這樣的狀況之下，我想問一下總裁，剛剛很多委員都問過了，我們有沒有新的另外一波的管制措施？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我跟委員報告，從選擇性信用管制之後，我們都一直在每次的理監事會的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以會不會再做一次不動產貸款的金檢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們都會討論它，這個議題我也相信這一次我們還是會討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，你們以前會對不動產貸款的專案金檢，跟金管會？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分我是建議啦，因為新青安貸款現在已經變成非常熱絡，而且有很多人已經當成人頭，甚至有轉租的現象，我們已經要求財政部去勾稽，如果有任何轉租的情況就必須要處理。第二個，民間的大型民營銀行，因為抵不過新青安貸款，所以現在有非常多40年的貸款，而且最高成數可以貸到九成，可能對於整個貸款的市場，我覺得總裁也要稍作注意，避免造成信用氾濫……"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我想委員的建議我們會更積極地來做金檢。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我會覺得說下一波你要好好的盯緊這個部分，因為畢竟政府的資產、資源不應該成為炒作房市的幫兇，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：這是第一點。第二點，我有看到今天總裁的報告，現在我們對日本都非常有興趣，因為國人現在非常開心，只要去日本玩就非常的便宜跟划算，重點是日本長期以來，我看到你們的報告是說日本到現在沒有脫離低利率、低通膨、低成長的經濟困境，也就是30多年失落的日本，其實就是臺灣的前車之鑑。我也看到我們雖然現在還是經濟成長，相對於日本是好很多，但是我也看到你們的報告裡面，3月份理監事會議是說，其實最嚴重的是快速進展的少子化跟高齡化，人口結構的變化影響經濟的成長。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以失落的日本，我們將在30年後──2052年，我們相關人口老化的速度會比日本還快。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：這種狀況非常嚴重吧！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以總裁，你有什麼建議？人口轉變、工作人口還有我們的衝擊會比日本還大，我看了真的是膽顫心驚，總裁怎麼建議？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，少子化不只有臺灣是這樣啦！好像是很多……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，世界的趨勢。"],["楊總裁金龍：特別是先進國家……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以如果你已經看到了2052年，我們的衝擊會比日本更大，那現在我們該做些什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以各個相關的部會包括……我們舉一個很簡單的例子，包括我們的學校……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，現在就要開始做準備了吧！30年前的現在就要做準備了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。你的勞力要怎麼來因應？那當然……"],["黃委員珊珊：將來的經濟成長已經不是匯率跟貨幣的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["黃委員珊珊：而是人口紅利的問題、有沒有生產力的問題、工作年齡人口的實質變化。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：壯世代要工作，年輕的世代要有新的教育方式，然後因應世界產業的變化要有不同的學習方法。"],["楊總裁金龍：我非常同意委員的看法。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是總裁，我不是官員，您是官員，您也會參加行政院院會。我認為這件事情，在您的報告都已經預計30年後，我們將面對現在日本這個考古題，而日本這個考古題，就像剛剛講的，我們不能再用所謂的將來的社會保障制度，還有很多制度都沒有調整，現在最嚴重的其實就是勞健保，還有所謂的社會福利相關的制度，如果我們現在不處理，我們現在還是用撥補來取代所謂的年金改革，這個其實是不務實的，就像我們一直用人民的納稅錢去撥補台電一樣，這個是不務實的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以總裁，我們希望政府應該及早因應，您在行政院院會，我相信也是備受肯定的首長。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：未來應該是給新政府一個很重要的規劃，30年後的臺灣會比現在日本衝擊更大，這個事實要讓國人都知道，最重要的是現在要做什麼準備，可能總裁也必須提出有前瞻性的規劃。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：而不是單純的只是提供貨幣或者是匯率的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員的指教。"],["黃委員珊珊：我也希望您給我一個針對這個部分您有什麼樣的建議，然後我們也可以拿出來跟行政院做要求，好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，可以。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝總裁。"],["主席：下一位請伍麗華伍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.50346875,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.25409375,"end":3.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.814093750000001,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.57284375,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.63159375,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.54596875,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.54159375,"end":37.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.996593750000002,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.35034375,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.30346875,"end":42.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.36596875,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.243468750000005,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.48784375,"end":51.094718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.516593750000006,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.56721875,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.60096875,"end":52.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.50346875,"end":55.853468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.962843750000005,"end":82.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.11971875,"end":80.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":87.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我跟委員報告是啦就是說我們從選擇性信用管制之後我們都一直在每次的禮監事會的時候所以會不會再做一次不動產貸款的解決我們都會討論它"},{"start":152.279,"end":180.408,"text":"這個議題呢我也相信這一次我們還是會討論是不動產你們以前會對不動產貸款的專案精簡跟金融對就這個部分我是建議啦因為新青安貸款現在已經變成非常熱絡而且有很多人已經當成人頭然後甚至有轉租的現象我們一定要求財政部去勾結如果有任何轉租的情況就必須要處理第二個民間的大型民營的銀行因為比不過新青安貸款所以現在有非常多"},{"start":181.969,"end":193.88,"text":"40年的貸款而且最高成數可以到達9成可能對於整個的貸款的市場我覺得總裁也要稍作注意避免造成市場反彈我想委員的建議我們會來更積極的來做精檢"},{"start":199.045,"end":222.723,"text":"所以我會覺得說下一波你要好好地盯緊這個部分因為畢竟政府的資產資源不應該成為炒作方式的幫兇是是謝謝所以第一點第二點就是我也看到今天總裁的報告在日本現在我們對日本都非常有興趣因為國人現在非常開心只要去日本玩就非常的便宜跟划算對"},{"start":223.484,"end":240.417,"text":"重點是日本長期以來我看到你們的報告是說日本到現在沒有脫離日本化低利率、低通膨、低成長的經濟困境也就是30多年的失落的日本那其實就是台灣的前車之鑑我有看到說我們雖然現在還是經濟成長"},{"start":242.278,"end":270.486,"text":"對。對。"},{"start":270.926,"end":299.413,"text":"這種狀況非常嚴重吧所以總裁你有什麼建議人口轉變工作人口還有我們的我們的衝擊會比日本還大我看了真是膽戰心驚總裁怎麼建議所以就是說少子化這個是不是說台灣是這樣好像是這個也是世界的趨勢就是說特別是先進國家如果你已經看到了2052我們會比日本更衝擊"},{"start":302.595,"end":316.41,"text":"所以各個相關的部會包括就是說包括我們舉一個很簡單的例子就是說包括我們的學校是的現在就要開始做準備了吧30年前的現在就要做準備了那你的勞力要怎麼來因應那當然了"},{"start":323.117,"end":323.217,"text":"國際財政委員會議"},{"start":342.858,"end":345.701,"text":"日本這個考古題就像剛剛講的我們不能再用所謂的"},{"start":364.999,"end":384.685,"text":"將來的社會保障制度還有很多制度都沒有調整現在最嚴重的其實就是勞健保還有相關的所謂的社會福利相關的制度如果我們現在不處理我們現在還是用撥補來取代所謂的年金改革這個其實是不務實的就像我們一直用人民的納稅錢去撥補台電一樣這個是不務實的"},{"start":388.246,"end":395.347,"text":"所以總裁我們希望政府應該及早因應您在行政院院會我相信也是備受"},{"start":396.479,"end":396.639,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":420.62,"end":421.261,"text":"現在進行吳立華吳委員"}]}},{"id":"153715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5f9b3b059f089fa299dbbe5275cafb4dfee56b966b91e11309c42b40381f6ac9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:49:52 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1.656,"end":617.979,"text":"所謂的要搭音架但是這個所謂的音架它用的是什麼樣的標準它用的是營造的標準來審核但問題是那個是完全非常不切實際我自己本身在影視產業工作過所以我知道"},{"start":619.045,"end":619.065,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":638.32,"end":664.636,"text":"我覺得這個部分其實是不是真的要有一些完成的一個修訂不然其實你一直用所謂的營造那一套工地那一套的標準套用在真正在出外景的這些所謂的製作公司他們在拍戲的這個劇組他們在勞檢的這個規章的部分其實有點不公平耶這個部分是不是可以說明一下下不好意思佔用一下時間當然因為我自己我自己也是來自這個這個"},{"start":670.52,"end":684.976,"text":"您剛才講的的確是這個問題我想我們文化部馬上做檢討然後研究一下看有什麼方法來保障這個東西另外其實剛剛有特別提到就是我們宣傳委員有特別提到其實520總統就職之後"},{"start":686.898,"end":692.102,"text":"其實中國對於他的那雙黑手也深入到了所謂的影視工作產業當中了然後那我們的這個陳沐益大哥他其實也特別有來跟我會面的時候他也特別提到他從得獎之後他幫臺灣的影視產業的工作同仁講話之後或者他表明他的態度是支持這片土地的時候他的工作量就非常非常之少所以這個部分我想我們對文化部長有一些期待"},{"start":713.9,"end":714.24,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5935df21479f13442f3bd234b5abfe8c9ee56b966b91e113086617f26213d19805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:52:49 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邀請顧部長部長請"},{"start":9.355,"end":35.197,"text":"市委老委好市委部長你好你辛苦啦沒有休息齁這個我也是很佩服啊這個天眾英明啊你要什麼職位都可以做了齁從檔場會做到金管會做到國安會現在國防部啊下一次不知道做什麼不知道啦齁剩下就是當院長還怎麼用還是要升總統什麼你什麼都不做勒為什麼最後是你當國防部長"},{"start":38.905,"end":40.165,"text":"我只能說我戰戰兢兢竊勝以對竊下這份工作有心情可以做好"},{"start":67.438,"end":91.731,"text":"我努力,我盡我最大努力。要接了就要做好喔!國防部長謝謝!全台灣人民的生命財產交到你手上喔!來我們來看看喔!這個最近美國在選總統的兩個人一個拜登一個川普"},{"start":92.896,"end":120.418,"text":"我講的話啦拜登說解讀的意思外面很多解讀他的原文不是這樣子解讀是說如果台灣被中國大陸入侵了拜登會防衛台灣有人把解讀說出兵我是打一個問號啦川普說轟炸北京這個請問你你是國防部長"},{"start":123.39,"end":149.067,"text":"你是不是得到這樣的訊息說如果大陸打台灣美國會去打大陸是這樣子嗎跟委員報告我覺得我簡單的回應三點第一點這個是只是顯示我想台海和平的穩定是全球安全與繁榮不可或缺的一部分也就是說它涉及到整個台灣或者台海地區和平穩定的重要性你回到精簡的回答我"},{"start":149.787,"end":151.949,"text":"川普說要打大陸,封炸大陸有沒有這個可能?"},{"start":174.772,"end":193.077,"text":"我想這個我已經說過了我並不清楚川普整個演講的全文這樣的去脈絡化的言語我沒有辦法加以評論這樣子你不覺得他們兩個都在飆車嗎因為今年的年底美國的總統要選舉了競爭非常激烈打台灣牌"},{"start":194.599,"end":197.76,"text":"現在我就是請問你美國真的要幫助台灣不管真的出兵假的出兵其實我都提出很多問題為什麼"},{"start":213.967,"end":225.466,"text":"6月開始29屆的環太平洋軍事演習沒有邀我們啊連觀察員都沒有6月26號到8月2號舉行的我們都沒參加"},{"start":227.084,"end":246.352,"text":"我們中間真的要幫台灣來打仗的話怎麼打呢?所以這些東西到底的選舉語言我現在就問你說這個前提川普也好拜登也好那個前提是台灣已經變戰場了台灣已經被打得稀巴爛了這是我們所關心的"},{"start":247.615,"end":264.053,"text":"我想我還是強調這個是一個所謂的一個為了維護這個印太地區的和平穩定所實施的一種以實力來跟決心來避免戰爭的發生的"},{"start":266.635,"end":287.191,"text":"我想為最高的一個美國的最大的利益講得很謹慎你的意思白話文可不可以這樣解讀就是說要不要清兵你不知道模糊的然後呢一切就是希望台灣能夠台海安定就這樣這是符合我想符合全世界的利益那我講完好不好那把這一句要講完"},{"start":288.871,"end":305.146,"text":"是你是認為你現在跟上一任的部長完全做不一樣喔邱部長是認為兩岸很緊張所以呢這個相關的這個政府主管不可以通俗休假你現在全部放了是你認為你現在看得太很太平"},{"start":306.087,"end":308.128,"text":"最後一個我要講一個這兩天27家將近30家軍火商拜會賴清德你有沒有在旁邊作賠"},{"start":333.866,"end":337.43,"text":"我不知道他有拜會,沒有拜會賴總統,我也沒有這樣的狀況存在。私下跟賴委員報告一下好不好?"},{"start":348.863,"end":369.027,"text":"沒有這個是據我曉得這是台灣的這個國防產業發展協會去邀請來的那做民間之間的國防產業的一個看能不能相互交流和溝通媒體講的是低調敗類賴清德媒體寫的字這麼大看哪一個媒體我們是不是先請回謝謝我沒有這樣的訊息我要講一下這個如果真的這樣一個軍火商跑到總統府去了"},{"start":377.264,"end":377.304,"text":"賴士葆"}]}},{"id":"153713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5d8e9d6f3b1f90715d6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1c123254f0538377ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:41:29 - 10:53:11","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:41:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:53:11+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時41分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴及媒體記者女士先生。有請法務部鄭部長、國家通訊傳播委員會蔡處長以及行政院個人資料保護委員會籌備處陳科長。"],["主席：請部長、處長、科長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、處長好、科長好。今天我的標題是「網路版的通聯紀錄有助於阻詐跟打詐，但通保法的授權應配套救濟保障」，這也是很多委員關切的。首先我們來看一下，先瞭解一下部長對這個的相關認知，簡報上是中研院的學術研究，它是利用手機的訊號資料去分析雙北的人口移動，這裡面有定位所謂的手機夜間人口跟手機日間人口，這是以手機的所在位置去取得，但它去對比當時手機用戶申辦門號時候的個資去對應到其戶籍夜間人口，分析這些人住在哪區，到了早上這些人又移動到哪區。我先請教一下蔡處長，請問你認為手機門號業者的這些資料提供學術研究是可以允許的嗎？"],["蔡處長志儒：是，如果它已經去識別化，沒有辦法再連接到所謂個人資料的連結……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，陳科長，我請教一下，像這樣的一個研究，不管是基於學術研究或是商業統計，如果當時手機門號的公司跟申請人、用戶本身在契約訂定上有明定同意，那有沒有侵犯到個人隱私？沒有料到會請你上來備問，是不是？"],["陳科長瑾儀：是，如果說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：申辦門號的人跟手機門號公司有這個約定，同意可以做商業統計或是做學術研究，可以嗎？"],["陳科長瑾儀：基本上，如果是有經過用戶同意的話，當然是在這個範疇……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我們看下一頁，為什麼要問這個呢？其實這個資料政府部門經常在使用，像剛剛顯現的調查就是早上8點50分、9點40分跟下午5點，臺北市交通尖峰時間40到49歲上班族的男性人流，它不是在追蹤個人的手機定位，而是顯示不同的時段、不同的區域，行動網路上抓到的門號數，它僅能顯示輪廓，不能回推個人。部長，你瞭解這樣一個經常性的應用嗎？部長，你對這樣的應用瞭解嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：時常是有這樣一個運用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我接下來就要問你了，其實手機訊號用於商業或學術與犯罪偵查的區別，我大概簡單的闡明一下，基於商業的或學術研究的目的，通常是根據個資法及契約的約定，原則上要當事人同意，你看到有這麼一群人，這時是分析群體的輪廓，大概知道是具什麼特性的人，在什麼時候大概會在什麼地方出現，但具體是誰，因為去識別化所以不知道。","但是犯罪偵查就不同了，我們犯罪偵查要識別犯罪者，在這些網路的通聯紀錄當中，我要找到什麼？根據刑訴跟通保法，內容上則是依照法律的規定，找出第一個，特定的嫌疑人，但是我要區隔出潛在的受害人，有時候犯罪者是跟受害人聯繫的；還有共犯以外的第三人，譬如說家人、商業往來上其他無相關的客戶，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這是我們在手機訊號上，就是現在說的網路的通訊流量或相關的通聯紀錄，在使用上的目的是不一樣的，對不對？正因為我們犯罪偵查必須明確的鎖定個人，所以我們在法律授權上有包括檢察官保留、法官保留跟後面一些必要的救濟、保障，是不是這樣的原因？請就麥克風回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們再往下看，目前詐騙前三名分別為簡訊、電話跟社群媒體，社群媒體越來越多人使用了，其實電商平臺、通訊軟體、電子郵件，都是屬於電信或網路詐欺，所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂，就是因為我們的數位科技、通訊非常的發達。所以我舉一個例子，以LINE群組來吸金詐騙，在這個個案中，有個民眾失業了，他上網時有人邀請他加入LINE的投資群組，成員當中的其他人在跟他話家常，讓他對成員的其他人卸下心防，接著慢慢的就講到了有關股票、虛擬貨幣的投資訊息，甚至要花錢加入專案，但是你給他錢之後，他就叫你要先「退群」，然後跟著顧問學習操作，等到他投了40萬、退了群卻血本無歸，連被誰騙了都不知道，部長瞭解類似這樣的個案經常發生的情況嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以警方或檢調怎麼調查呢？首先，嫌犯既然涉及電信詐騙，他一定有受害人，受害人去報案，警察受理之後去調查，他要先去向電信業者調取使用者的資料，這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平臺的配合，以確定嫌犯的真實身分，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是為什麼你們的條文當中規定要取得用戶的個人資料，這些個人資料是在辦理這些電信設備使用的時候必須要填的，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這是第一步。"],["鍾委員佳濱：業者要提供，才能知道是誰。但是接下來查到身分之後，我們要怎麼樣去查他有沒有共犯，或者他在對哪些被害人下手？這個時候就不是特定對象了，而是根據他網路通聯的流量、時間、頻率，然後來判斷他聯絡的對象是他的家人、共犯、車手還是被害人，所以，我要再確認一次，調取網路的流量紀錄，是不是只能看到聯絡的紀錄，看不到內容？"],["鄭部長銘謙：看不到內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，你們就必須根據外觀來判斷，是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是從這些去做判斷……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這也是為什麼你們要取得這個流量紀錄的原因。其實目前在通保法還沒有修改之前，平臺業者是怎麼回應警方、檢調要求提供這些個資的？譬如說我們搜索Dcard/FB，此時他們僅供17個重案個資；LINE的部分，也要搜索票。我們再看一下，像FB、IG，重案就提供；LINE，需要搜索票；Dcard，需要搜索票。實務上是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您也知道，還是要問副署長才知道？你確定是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：LINE這部分一定要有搜索票。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前這些大的平臺它的態度是不一樣的，為什麼？因為沒有法律的授權，他們可以拒絕，是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們往下看，通保法第十一條之一第一項，這裡面有三個重點，第一個，關於「三年以上」，我們這次把最重本刑三年以上拿掉了；檢察官保留的部分，將來擴充到也提供給司法警察官；最後，書面聲請法院核發調取票，現在這個也拿掉了，沒有法官保留了。使用者從檢察官可以發動，到司法警察官也都可以發動，還有本刑規定的部分，剛剛幾位委員都問過了，請問一下，你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第一，德國跟美國的立法例本來就沒有這種的規定，而且這個完全沒有涉及到內容……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們今天的報告當中有說到德國的刑法，有這樣的一個立法例，就是這個東西司法警察官就可以開始發動的，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們是參照德國的例子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：德國、美國。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，舉個例子，我常常去捐血，捐血到最後會要我填一個單子，上面說：你同不同意這些個資可以做學術研究？我同意；你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做宣導？我說，可以，這是鼓勵大家捐血；你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚？我說，那不用了，為什麼？因為捐血的時候，他要尊重我，但是今天衛福部如果基於疫病的調查要做疫調，因為它擔心我的血有被污染，強迫捐血中心取得我的個資、瞭解我捐的血的流向，你覺得可不可以？有沒有法律的依據？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於個人資料保護法的問題，這個不是我們通保法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我瞭解您理解的問題、您的認知……","我這樣講好了，根據傳染病防治法就可以，因為根據傳染病防治法，基於公益的目的，可以為了瞭解我的血液分布的流向，可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料。同樣的道理，剛剛講到我們個人跟手機門號業者的契約內容，我有的同意，有的不同意，但是基於犯罪的偵查，你們認為有法律的授權，當然可以拿到，是不是這樣？當然可以去取得，前提是有法律授權，但是在法律授權之外，有什麼要求呢？修正草案第三條之一第三項的網路流量紀錄，剛剛一直有談到，沈伯洋委員也問到了，這些內容上細微的差別，對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的，所以他剛剛很細緻地問到了一些問題，你們回去要趕快地把它區分清楚，同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會再……"],["鍾委員佳濱：再來，修正後原則是由檢警聲請，經法官同意，但是有些重罪就無需法官同意，為什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為急迫性，而且要快速處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但不管是取得他的流量紀錄，或者只是瞭解使用者的資料，那被調查人士會知道嗎？剛剛委員一直在問這個問題，莊委員也是，還有羅委員也是，所以你們對這個部分有沒有一個想法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：整個要區分，要層次性的一個處理，就像……"],["鍾委員佳濱：流量紀錄的影響比較大……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，一定要通知嘛！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是條文當中有寫到嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是沒有，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們打算怎麼做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會整體研議，我們在子法或是相關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實我昨天就提醒你們了，昨天在審科技偵查法的時候，我們有說，其實相較於科技偵查法，只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具，但是到了這個部分、到了通保法的部分，雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察，但是對於個資的使用，對於流量紀錄的取得，這對當事人的隱私跟人權是有一些影響。所以我要請你們趕快去思考，雖然目前的院版條文並沒有明定，但是後續執行的細則，你們要趕快去思考，程序上要予以規範，包括警務人員的教育訓練要予以增強，讓他有正確的觀念，我希望後面逐條的部分，是不是對於可能的附帶決議，你們要先行研議，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後的結論，我們同意強化偵查效能達成打詐的目標，但是我們也希望你們完善個資保護並考量告知及救濟機制，這是我們每個人可能會遇到的情況，我可能是在犯罪偵查當中被掃到的、可能的一個無辜的第三人，但我有權利知道我的個資曾經被這樣的……當然是準個資進入犯罪偵查的使用，我有權利知道，你同意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會再做釐清。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那趕快，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱召委，也謝謝部長的備詢。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來請游顥委員、游顥，游顥委員不在。","請賴士葆委員、賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請吳召委宗憲、吳召委宗憲，吳召委宗憲不在。","請吳委員思瑤發言。","在這裡先做預告，待會吳委員發言之後再進行後續議程處理，可能會參照昨天的方式，先進行條文宣讀，然後再休息，宣讀時間大概要20分鐘，讓大家有充分的時間休息。好，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.14784375,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.442843750000002,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.543468750000002,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.660968750000002,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.33971875,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.18346875,"end":26.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.96346875,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.80221875,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.47284375,"end":80.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.21659375,"end":82.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.24159375,"end":85.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.60409375,"end":87.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.54471875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.05909375,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.10909375,"end":94.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.97346875000001,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.07034375,"end":110.57909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.83221875000001,"end":114.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.53971875,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.17659375000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.49721875,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.60659375,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.64034375000001,"end":124.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.78784375000001,"end":125.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.59346875000001,"end":128.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.60159375,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.30596875,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.76909375,"end":141.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.73909375,"end":141.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.22409375,"end":172.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.67909375000002,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.53971875000002,"end":188.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.98034375,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.33034375000003,"end":193.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.77284375000002,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.64096875,"end":218.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.73096875000002,"end":224.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.31659375,"end":227.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.38784375,"end":230.37471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.47596875000002,"end":236.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.74596875,"end":231.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.51284375,"end":239.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.55034375000002,"end":243.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.04346875000002,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.00846875000002,"end":273.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.13159375000004,"end":279.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.29534375000003,"end":281.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.01221875000005,"end":286.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.56846875,"end":292.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.87971875,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.00159375000004,"end":297.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.53721875,"end":298.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.14034375,"end":299.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.13596875,"end":300.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.26659375,"end":302.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.44346875,"end":306.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.26159375000003,"end":306.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.70034375,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.71721875000003,"end":306.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.33721875000003,"end":311.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.64471875000004,"end":323.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.27159375,"end":326.07284375},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人所以我們就必須要法律上授權上有包括檢察官保留法官保留跟一個必要的後面的救濟保障是不是這樣的原因是嗎請就麥跟我回答好是好那這樣我們往下看其實目前詐騙的前三名檢訊電話跟社群媒體社群媒體越來越多人使用了"},{"start":262.612,"end":287.649,"text":"其實電商平台或通訊軟體的電子郵件都是屬於電信或網路詐欺所以這是為什麼我們今天詐欺這麼猖狂就是因為我們的數位科技通訊非常的發達往下看所以我們舉這個例子以賴群來吸金詐騙我們介紹個案有個民眾失業了他上網有人邀請他加入個賴的投資群組成員當中其他的人跟他畫家場卸下心防成員的其他人然後慢慢的就講到了什麼講到了有關股票、虛擬貨幣的投資訊息要花錢加入專案"},{"start":292.912,"end":293.253,"text":" ）一）行政院函請審"},{"start":311.71,"end":330.976,"text":" bicyn 犯他既然涉及電信詐騙他一定有受害人受害人就報案警察受理之後他去調查他去先電信業者調取使用者的資料這時候檢警就需要電信業者或社群平台配合他能確定嫌犯的真實身份是不是是這就是為什麼你們的條文當中為什麼要取得用戶的個人資料"},{"start":331.616,"end":332.237,"text":"二、繼續併案審查一）行政院函請審"},{"start":353.05,"end":379.386,"text":"時間頻率讓來判斷他聯絡的電話是他的家人還是共犯還是車手還是被害人所以我要再確認一次調取網路的流量記錄是不是是只能看到聯絡的記錄看不到內容看不到內容是啊你們就要必須根據外觀來判斷嗎是這樣嗎就是從這些裡面去做判斷所以這也是為什麼你們需要取得這個流量記錄的原因往下看其實我們目前呢在沒有通訊保障修改之前平台業者怎麼回應警方檢調他的"},{"start":381.141,"end":400.322,"text":"要求提供這些個資,譬如說我們搜索Dcard、FB有17個重案個資,LINE也要搜索票,我們看一下喔,FB、IG怎麼樣重案就提供,LINE的話要搜索票,Dcard要搜索票,是不是這樣子,實務上是不是這樣子?是。是你也知道還是要問副署長才知道,你確定是這樣嗎?"},{"start":403.904,"end":422.612,"text":"目前這些大的平台他的態度是不一樣的為什麼因為沒有法律的授權他們可以拒絕是不是這樣好那往下看所以目前我們看通訊法第11條之一我們在第一項當中我們就看到了其實這裡面有三個重點第一個三年以上我們這次最重本刑三年以上的拿掉了"},{"start":423.171,"end":443.719,"text":"那把檢察官保留呢擴充到也提供給司法警察官那最後呢書面何請法院調取票現在這個也拿掉了是不是這樣子沒有法官保留了嘛那使用者呢從檢察官發動到司法警察官都會發動那麼連本行的規定剛剛集會委員都問過了請問一下你認為做這些修正的目的是什麼"},{"start":445.908,"end":466.709,"text":"這個第一這個是本來就我們德國跟美國的立法力本來就沒有這一種的而且這個這個完全沒有涉及到內部在你們今天的報告說明當中有收到德國的刑法有這樣的一個立法力就是這個東西是只屬於司法警察官就可以開始發動的是不是這樣對所以你們是參照德國的例子德國美國"},{"start":467.37,"end":488.958,"text":"好那我來看一下往下看喔但是我們來看一下我舉個例子齁我舉例啦我常常去捐血捐血到最後他要填一個單子他說你同不同意你這些個資可以做學術研究我同意你同不同意把你的捐血的情況拿來做做宣導我說啊可以啦鼓勵大家捐血嘛那你同不同意我們用你的捐血紀錄來給你做表揚我說那不用了"},{"start":490.077,"end":504.757,"text":"為什麼捐血的時候他要尊重我但是如果說今天衛福部基於疫病的調查要做疫調他擔心我的血有汙染他強迫捐血中心取得我的個資瞭解我這捐血的流向你覺得有沒有可以可不可以有沒有法律的依據"},{"start":506.803,"end":525.876,"text":"這個是屬於個人資料保護法對不對?這個不是我們通報保障部長可能我了解您的理解的問題的認知好我這樣講齁這個根據傳染病防治法就可以啦根據傳染病防治法基於公益的目的他可以為了瞭解我的血液的分布的流向他可以跟捐血中心拿到我的資料"},{"start":526.772,"end":539.046,"text":"同樣的道理我們剛剛講我們個人跟手機業者的這些個人的契約內容我有的同意有的不同意但是基於我們犯罪的偵查你們認為有法律授權當然可以拿到嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":540.1,"end":563.491,"text":"當然可以去取得嘛前提是要法律授權嘛但是法律授權之外有什麼要求呢我們往下看喔修正草案的第三之一條的第三項這個網路的流量紀錄剛剛一直在談到了沈博洋委員也問到了這些內容細微的差別對個人隱私的影響是不一樣的所以他剛剛很細緻的問到了一些問題你們回去要趕快的把它區分清楚同意嗎"},{"start":564.642,"end":591.504,"text":"我們會再...好那再來呢本來的原則呢是由檢警申請經法官同意修正了但是呢有些重罪就無需法官保留為什麼因為急迫性而且是要快速處理快速處理好但是不管是取得他的流量紀錄或者甚至只是了解他的使用的資料那麼被調查人士會知道嗎剛剛一直在問這個問題啊莊委員也是啊還有誰還有羅委員也是啊所以我是覺得你們對這個部分"},{"start":592.805,"end":609.198,"text":"有沒有一個想法?那個整個要區分那個要層次性的一個處理嗎?對,流量記錄比較影響大。對對,他一定要通知嘛。但是條文當中有寫到嗎?有沒有?目前是沒有。目前沒有。所以,所以呢你們打算怎麼做?"},{"start":613.476,"end":626.393,"text":"所以我其實在昨天呢我就提醒你們了昨天我們在審我們的這個科技偵查法的時候我們有說其實相較於科技偵查法只是提供你們偵查犯罪的工具"},{"start":626.913,"end":653.88,"text":"但是到這個部分通訊保障的部分因為雖然你們不涉及到對內容的監察但是呢對於各自的使用對於流量的紀錄的取得這會對當事人的隱私跟人權有些影響所以我請你們要趕快去思考條文雖然目前的月滿條文並沒有明定但是後續的執行的細則你們要趕快的去思考程序上要予以規範包括警務人員的"},{"start":655.24,"end":678.421,"text":"教育訓練要予增強正確的觀念那我希望在待會後面逐條的部分是不是你們對於可能的附帶決議你們要先行研議可以嗎那最後的結論我們同意強化偵查效能來達到打造的目標但是我們也希望你們完善各自的保護並考量告知跟就近的機制這個是我們每個人遇到這種情況我可能是"},{"start":679.517,"end":679.898,"text":"二）行政院函請審"}]}},{"id":"153712","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153712","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d59f3b78239714ab55f3bd234b5abfe8c98282b1d5b897dd1cb2c76d9d4ef1a3e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:40:51 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1.121,"end":311.521,"text":"我們沒有第一集,我們就只有智慧權的行使"},{"start":336.772,"end":336.852,"text":"部長部長"},{"start":357.688,"end":358.789,"text":"國防部長顧立雄報告業務概況．"},{"start":381.961,"end":382.001,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":404.482,"end":424.6,"text":"七八年好久了七年前他們就已經做了調整他們光是每個月的伙食金額已經在本島地區就已經有三千兩百塊可是我們的國軍官兵他的一些伙食副食費的標準本島才兩千九百六十九塊等於說一百塊都不到"},{"start":426.081,"end":430.165,"text":"那現在包括像在大直實踐大學一個便當都要120塊那我們一天才99塊三餐喔所以就這個部分很多的藝男其實大概都有做這樣的一個建議希望可以調高這樣的一個金額預算"},{"start":444.597,"end":470.314,"text":"因為在我們的報告裡面也提到說因應國軍備戰執勤部分作業任務繁重強調也要照顧官兵的生活讓官兵能夠專注本務工作確保部隊的戰力那你要讓官兵吃飽吃好他才有這樣的戰力啊所以就這個部分我們希望國防部也要做事實的調整因為就在之前審預算的時候其實我們也都有提過"},{"start":476.078,"end":485.587,"text":"行政院114年都已經有照顧所有的官兵能夠調高至於您講的那個外島委員提到外島跟外島離島這部分因為金門馬祖跟東沙這幾個地方東引這幾個地方都沒有復工站"},{"start":490.891,"end":490.931,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":509.085,"end":529.51,"text":"除了伙食費外還有一個夜點費 夜點費從民國86年到目前為止那個已經經過多少時間夜點費到現在還只有60塊 就是宵夜的部分如果大家需要熬夜或者需要很長的時間做這樣子的一個任務的時候我們只有60塊 這個部分是不是部長也可以一併的去做調整"},{"start":531.461,"end":539.265,"text":"業點會的部分我的瞭解是已經調整了,調整的輔助還蠻大的,所以我們在規劃中還向行政院來溝通,不是我們已經內部已經有一個調整作業的那個,然後我們會參與物價波動型向行政院溝通來增加。"},{"start":548.49,"end":567.134,"text":"因為我們到目前得到的看到的資訊都是86年前就是現在目前所有詢問所有的官士兵他們大概的夜點費大概就是60塊我們還沒有看到你有新的做法在這個部分如果有我們當然也是希望可以盡快實施那另外還有一個時間不好意思因為時間比較緊迫我們現在在叫招的部分有叫招到因為過去"},{"start":574.676,"end":580.339,"text":"男性的那個護理師其實是比較少的可是現在越來越多現在我們全國的醫院就是醫病比其實是護病比其實是高達1比6或1比15所以當我們叫召這樣的人員進來的時候等於醫院甚至有一個醫院也會一次同時叫召到兩個"},{"start":597.967,"end":598.007,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":620.103,"end":620.143,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":639.363,"end":641.866,"text":"有關於委員這部分因為我們有訂這個緩竹緊招的相關規定那也有相關的作業規定那細部的部分因為目前是沒有把這相關人員列入那委員的建議我們會回去我們已經接到很多"},{"start":654.923,"end":655.003,"text":"馬文君委員"}]}},{"id":"153711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5705b4570c9deca2279f99d17e212a4188282b1d5b897dd1cd90e9c4ed1ebb99e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:41:56 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謝謝主席 這個環境部部長還有環管署署長有請請彭部長還有嚴署長部長早安今天我們等一下投影片好不好"},{"start":26.671,"end":50.877,"text":"今天看到這個專題報告本席是覺得很高興因為環境部不只有注意到垃圾處理最終去化的問題也注意到了暫置的問題這其實是本席非常關心的一個事情根據環境部統計的資料近5年一般廢棄物的總生產量即超過千萬公噸與此同時針對一般廢棄物的暫存量的部分從21萬公噸翻了4倍來到84萬公噸"},{"start":55.678,"end":73.793,"text":"那麼處理量減少了5.85%一般廢棄物的妥善處理率從98.85%降到93%從圖表裡面你可以看到這個黃色的部分其實是這個紅色的折線圖的部分其實是所謂的垃圾佔滯量從圖表的角度看起來它好像很少啊"},{"start":74.494,"end":92.163,"text":"叫做圖表為福但是選區巨量什麼意思呢右邊這張圖是全台灣有超過100座的垃圾佔治場也就是基於垃圾清運的動線啊人力啊資源啊等等的一個困境我必須要把垃圾佔治在某些場域"},{"start":92.703,"end":121.863,"text":"然後再送到最終的去化場所但是這些事情當初在臺灣還沒有那麼完整發展的時候可能二三十年前設立的時候他可能是都市的近郊周邊荒煙漫草沒有人大家也就放在那個地方就算了但隨著都市化的推進這個大樓從化區開始蓋起來之後這個就變成最麻煩的林壁設施部長今天特別要提這一點就是因為龜山本期的選區龜山這個叫做大埔垃圾轉運站這個我們用空拍機拍的"},{"start":123.384,"end":147.506,"text":"這個桃園的焚化爐最近在稅休所以基於這個戰事的壓力就會大幅的來增加那我大幅來增加的時候這個就是標準的以前是城市的競交現在周邊都是大樓我因為這樣的事情被人家罵死了那沒辦法遇到這樣的事我們總是要面對總是要處理所以我今天看到環境部講說垃圾戰事是一個問題的時候本席是很高興所以趕快來跟部長做一個研討"},{"start":148.507,"end":172.348,"text":"部長現在竟然注意到全台灣有這麼多的垃圾戰事場垃圾的戰事量也上升請問現在中央針對這樣子的一個結構問題有沒有任何的措施來做處理報告委員那個因為我們有正在5個新的焚化爐在興建預期它的容量會到700萬噸所以現在的你剛才看到那個龜山現在正在轉運等於是正在去化當中還要一點點時間"},{"start":176.454,"end":190.287,"text":"對我現在講你剛剛講說我們投入的資源都是在末端去化也就是說我把末端的量做大那相對來講這個垃圾處理速度會變快戰事的壓力就會降低但很多戰事其實是基於距離啊基於什麼的我發現你環保"},{"start":191.928,"end":206.599,"text":"這個環境部裡面有一個這個多元垃圾處理計劃他其實有一筆預算好去處理這件事桃園市政府本來想要申請一筆預算把這個做個加蓋或什麼的但是我認為不可以我為什麼認為不可以呢你在這個大樓旁邊一旦加蓋那就轉一轉就走不了了"},{"start":207.159,"end":230.181,"text":"那這絕對不是周邊居民要的但我希望的是如果這一筆多元的這個處理計畫除了是末端的處理之外中途的轉運你能不能做靈活的調度如何來順利的轉運讓轉運站退場其實是增加清潔隊的人手增加垃圾車的數量讓這個轉運的過程可以順利我就不用因為送不完然後影響垃圾清運而必須要有站置場"},{"start":231.162,"end":246.832,"text":"這環境部願不願意來做一下多年的思考﹖也就是說針對戰事﹖一百多座戰場的退場計畫與一定的預算支持跟政策的協助﹖請部長回答一下﹖我們請我們署長﹖可以這我請他來講的很重要的一個原因是包委員是這樣子那個"},{"start":252.398,"end":262.93,"text":"我們全國營運中的掩埋場是107座所有營運中的掩埋場都是衛生標準掩埋場他有污水處理設施不過這個轉運這件事情是"},{"start":265.573,"end":274.841,"text":"我們很願意跟地方政府這真的是地方政府的一個地方政府主責啦但我們希望中央可以提供預算跟政策的支持好不好我們來研討這個事情可以嗎好不好希望環境部這個會後我們來做一下強加的研討我們跟台灣市政府來開個會"},{"start":281.006,"end":298.314,"text":"來處理那這第一個是我們講說希望可以增加垃圾車的車輛也好清潔人員也好協助地方政府做這個事第二個我們講去化這個我跟前任的部長有講過應該有區域聯防的機制粉化爐個別縣市沒辦法處理周邊縣市合作處理那當然合作處理你可以讓地方自己談但地方自己談沒有誘因"},{"start":298.874,"end":320,"text":"一樣我希望中央設定誘因凡是各縣是不管藍的綠的只要願意做區域聯防的相關的預算補助或什麼多一點提供政策誘因讓區域聯防的機制可以常態化第三個本期也要花點時間去講就是我們發現到這個末端處理的經費很高因為你要蓋焚化爐可是前端處理的經費綠色的你看顯然落差非常大"},{"start":320.74,"end":331.969,"text":"這一點我希望可以做有效的調整我們大家都在講垃圾減量最有效的措施叫做專用垃圾袋我們新的部長上任之後這個要不要推是全國推還是各地方推有沒有想法"},{"start":333.266,"end":360.482,"text":"基本上齁這個我們大多數已經直接最後一路就市場啦但是我們跟我同仁討論之後不要硬推因為要改變生活習慣壓力很大對不對壓力很大我們會想一個更好的方式來解決兩種做法一個是你中央要全國推你的主力很高這本席理解那第二個就是鼓勵各地方先行嘛然後慢慢慢慢擴散但同樣就是同樣的邏輯你如果要鼓勵地方推中央請給地方優惠跟誘因跟預算的支持"},{"start":361.062,"end":385.51,"text":"讓地方在推的時候門檻降低他們才會有比較大的誘因去推動然後從源頭這個其實就是你源頭可以上升的地方嘛補貼一些地方政府來鼓勵事辦這樣子的一個措施然後也收集經驗讓這個政策能夠慢慢的來落地這是本席的希望好不好今天這三個訴求都是希望中央給予地方一定的支持來解決垃圾戰事的問題希望部長可以提供好的解決方案我答應過這個主席不能浪費太多時間謝謝謝謝我們會來努力好謝謝牛煦庭委員"}]}},{"id":"153710","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153710","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5017be4707fe43fbf2248f66a23a11b538282b1d5b897dd1c106eb39dfaeef8f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:38:30 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10:48:25","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:38:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:48:25+08:00","duration":595,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時38分）謝謝主席，我們請總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好。接續剛剛好幾位委員的話題，因為現在日幣是貶值，當然很多人都希望，也有這個能力、意願到日本去玩，但是相對的日系產品到臺灣來，其實價格還是維持在年初前的高檔，也不用到譴責啦，有時候道德勸說一下，因為他們已經貶值了，日系產品進來臺灣的價格是不是也能夠再稍微優惠一點啦？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員講的沒有錯。對啦，這個用道德勸說的方式會比較妥當。"],["李委員坤城：其實你們只要道德勸說，或是跟業者稍微講一下、喝個咖啡，業者都知道意思啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["李委員坤城：今天的題目現在日本維持匯率是比較弱勢，當然他們也吸引觀光客到日本旅遊，也讓服務業的輸出繼續成長，一方面吸引外資、刺激出口，日本近期的經濟也有成長，形成良性循環。但是匯率弱勢對臺灣出口也有幫助，亞洲國家經濟都是以製造業跟出口為主，考量規模經濟、出口需求等等，因此各國也傾向維持匯率弱勢，臺灣跟其他國家在產業上有競爭關係，所以臺幣維持弱勢當然也有其必要性，可是維持臺幣弱勢的代價就是進口物價上漲的通膨壓力。我請教一下總裁，以今年來講，新臺幣匯率開高走低，我看了一下全年最高價可能是在1月2號的30.866元，最低價有可能是落在4月22號的32.651元。"],["楊總裁金龍：對！"],["李委員坤城：收盤價如果貶破了32.5元，市場有所謂的楊金龍防線，請教總裁有所謂的楊金龍防線嗎？32.5元是您的防線嗎？貶到多少算是超貶呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。我也趁這個機會來跟委員報告，基本上應該是沒有所謂的防線啦。"],["李委員坤城：沒有楊金龍的防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。因為說實在匯率是一個指標、價格，它是隨供需在決定的，剛好我們才公布外資在臺灣外匯存底的比重，現在都131%了，你看很顯然的，基本上，外資現在在我們的外匯市場是扮演非常重要的一個角色，所謂的扮演重要角色就是它的進跟出，第一個很難去掌握，這是第一個；第二個，它進來或是出去的時候都非常集中，而且非常大量，不僅是進來或出去，這個是隨時的，你很難去掌握，你要manage它不大容易，但是中央銀行要關注它，所以……"],["李委員坤城：對！我的意思是因為央行對匯率還是可以稍微管一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們還是要注意它，所以我們的報告裡面也有談到，第一個，我們不能讓匯率波動得太大。"],["李委員坤城：對！"],["楊總裁金龍：因為匯率波動如果太大的話，我們的廠商要怎麼報價，它就不容易報價。"],["李委員坤城：好，那是不是有維持一個range？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然你要維持一個range，只能說是它的volatility、它的波動度，但你也不能把它設定新臺幣匯率是32到32.5元，我們也沒辦法做這樣的一個……"],["李委員坤城：所以它會是一個range啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：對！只能說讓波動幅度能夠穩定，這是第一個；第二個，剛剛委員講得也沒有錯啦，說實在匯率是相對性的，人家在貶值的時候，你硬要讓新臺幣升值，但是新臺幣的供需也是朝貶的方向走時，你有可能讓它升值嗎？也沒辦法嘛，也就是大家都在貶的時候，你來看看其他的情況是怎麼樣，如果我也貶，但是對我一籃子中其他的貨幣，相較之下我還升值耶！"],["李委員坤城：也有升。"],["楊總裁金龍：也有可能是升值啊！對不對？所以我們就必須要來注意這些的動態，不要讓它的副作用產生。"],["李委員坤城：所以也沒有所謂一個多少價錢的匯率是屬於一個防線，超過那個防線你就要稍微注意？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！當然我們也沒有所謂的防線，基本上，第一個要讓它穩定；第二個，也就是說……"],["李委員坤城：介於多少到多少是比較穩定的呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛才在講它的波動度。"],["李委員坤城：但是波動也不能太大啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！最主要的就是說……"],["李委員坤城：所以我才說有一個區間嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！它的波動度，所以波動度……"],["李委員坤城：所以我才認為大概多少到多少是屬於安全值。"],["楊總裁金龍：而且你看看我們的報告裡面，在第幾頁我們就有畫出波動度出來，委員，你也可以參考一下，事實上我們的波動度跟其他亞洲國家來比較，我們的波動度算是很穩定的，它有一定的穩定度。"],["李委員坤城：對，我當然知道對於央行來講，維持匯率的穩定是相當的重要啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，非常重要，這是中央銀行法裡面規定我們要維持匯率的穩定。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我再請教總裁，弱勢的日幣跟弱勢臺幣其實有利於兩國的外銷產業，就像你們的報告所講出來的，臺日兩國貿易競爭的關係不大，但是互補性大，所以弱勢的日幣對臺灣的產業是利大於弊，政府也可以利用這個機會，鼓勵我們產業赴日投資。美國早期是比較擔心說臺日兩國匯率的貶值會影響到外銷的貿易競爭力，但是近年來對於臺幣、日幣的貶值，他們也沒有什麼樣的反對意見，顯然這個國際的局勢，美、日、臺友好，聯合抗中的新局勢成為全球的新秩序。請教一下總裁的看法。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，基本上對於後面的sentence，就是與國際局勢有關，美日臺友好，聯合抗中的新局勢已成為全球新秩序，這個是屬於政治的層面，但是匯率的升貶是另外一個層面，基本上它的匯率報告是比較偏向這個層面來講，它不會說我們政治是哥倆好，所以經濟方面……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，政治的意涵是我賦予的，另外，過去美國對於臺灣、日本如果是貨幣貶值，他們會比較在意啦！但是現在對於臺日兩國的貨幣貶值，它比較沒有大的反對意見。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員是講的沒有錯啦！不過我跟委員報告，這次幾乎所有的貨幣都對美元貶值，那為什麼對美元貶值，因為美國的經濟在所有的經濟體裡面，它是一枝獨秀，而且它的利率又很高，它的經濟強，所以這是當然，它也知道……所以我們在報告裡面也講，事實上大家沒有競貶，主要還是在阻貶，那阻貶的話就比較合美國的意思啦！事實上美國對於這個議題比較在意的是競貶，這樣的話會產生……"],["李委員坤城：但是我們沒有競貶嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啊！沒有競貶，我們的分析認為事實上現在亞洲的國家大部分的幣別都是在阻貶，而不是在競貶。"],["李委員坤城：好，最後30秒，請教一下總裁，6月13號央行要召開第二季的理監事會議了，媒體在猜上次理監事會議召開之後有給我們一個surprise，升息半碼，那這次會有surprise嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不大好意思講，這個是題外話，不好意思，不過時常surprise是不好啦！不過這個不是結果啦！"],["李委員坤城：是，那我知道你的意思，謝謝總裁、謝謝主席。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時55分）"],["主席：繼續開會。下一位質詢請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.19971875,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.14284375,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.910343750000003,"end":22.508468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.57596875,"end":29.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.152843750000002,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.095343750000005,"end":53.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.47409375,"end":53.727218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.727218750000006,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.744093750000005,"end":53.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":60.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.101593750000006,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.83534375000001,"end":71.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.53471875000001,"end":70.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPE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我們請總裁楊總裁"},{"start":14.816,"end":36.915,"text":"總裁好這個接續剛剛好幾位委員的話題因為現在日幣是貶值當然很多人都希望也有這個能力意願到日本去玩但是相對的日系的產品到台灣來其實價格還是維持它在年初前的高檔我是希望說"},{"start":37.996,"end":38.737,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":54.838,"end":60.021,"text":"今天的題目就是說現在日本維持會市的弱勢當然還沒吸引觀光客到日本去旅遊"},{"start":80.911,"end":81.212,"text":"﹚李坤城"},{"start":97.432,"end":97.592,"text":"以今年來講"},{"start":125.853,"end":130.355,"text":"新台幣匯率開高走低,全年最高價1月2日30.866元,最低價4月22日32.651元,收盤價"},{"start":142.179,"end":143.64,"text":"沒有楊金龍的防線．沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":169.173,"end":197.963,"text":"因為匯率說實在它是一個這個指標這個價格它是隨供需在決定的那特別是我跟委員報告特別是現在外資剛剛我們才公布那個外資在我們台灣的那個所佔的對外貨存底的比重你看現在說131%你看很顯然的就是說基本上"},{"start":199.286,"end":222.932,"text":"外資現在在我們的外匯市場呢他是很扮演非常重要的一個角色所謂的扮演重要角色就是說他的進跟出啊第一個很難去掌握這是第一個第二個呢他進來的時候或是出去的時候他都非常的集中而且非常的大量不僅是進來或是出去"},{"start":223.652,"end":251.786,"text":"那這個隨時你就很難去你就很你要manage他不大容易但是呢中央銀行要關注他所以呢對我意思是說央行還是這個匯率還是可以稍微我們還是要注意他然後呢做一個所以我們的報告裡面也有談到就是說我們第一個我們不能讓這個匯率波動得太大因為你的匯率波動得太大的話呢我們的廠商他要報價他要怎麼報價"},{"start":252.807,"end":253.087,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":277.424,"end":299.01,"text":"第二個呢剛剛委員你也講的沒有錯啦就是說你的匯率說實在的匯率是相對性的啦人家在貶值的時候呢那你硬著就是說要讓新台幣升值但是呢新台幣它的供需呢它也是朝貶的方向走的時候那你有可能去讓它升值嗎也沒辦法嘛所以就是說"},{"start":300.03,"end":319.472,"text":"大家都在貶的時候呢那你來看看其他的情況是怎麼樣如果說我會貶但是呢對我的一籃子其他的貨幣呢相較之下我還升值了有可能是升值啊對不對所以呢我們就必須要來注意這些的一個不要讓他的副作用產生"},{"start":320.373,"end":339.143,"text":"所以也沒有所謂一個多少價錢這個匯率就是屬於一個防線然後超過那個防線你就稍微要注意我們對啦當然我們也沒有所謂的防線但是基本上第一個要讓它穩定那第二個呢也就是說那介於多少到多少是比較穩定的勒"},{"start":340.663,"end":359.268,"text":"我剛剛才在講就是說,它的波動度...它的波動也不能太大啊!對對對!最主要的就是...我才說有一個曲線嘛!對對對!它的波動度所以...所以波動度齁,而且你看看齁,你看看我們的報告裡面齁我們的報告裡面我們第幾頁我們就有畫出我們的波動度出來"},{"start":360.188,"end":382.799,"text":"我們的波動度跟其他亞洲國家來比較的話我們的波動度算是很穩定的它有一定的穩定度我當然知道說對於央行來講維持匯率的穩定是相當的重要這是我們的中央銀行法裡面規定我們就是說要維持匯率的穩定"},{"start":384.12,"end":402.934,"text":"我再請教總裁就是說其實弱勢的日幣跟弱勢的台幣其實有利於兩國的外銷產業就像你們的報告所講出來的臺日兩國的貿易競爭的關係不大但是互補性大所以弱勢的日幣對台灣的產業是利大於弊政府也可以利用這個機會鼓勵我們產業赴日投資"},{"start":406.457,"end":406.677,"text":"總裁的看法"},{"start":431.91,"end":444.837,"text":"基本上對於這個後面的先天是就是說國際局勢有關美日台有聯合抗衝的信誓以成為全球信誓這個是屬於這個層面這是屬於這個政治的一個層面"},{"start":450.7,"end":475.821,"text":"但是呢就是說匯率的申辯這是另外一個層面這是另外一個層面那基本上他的他的匯率報告呢他是比較偏向這個層面來講他不會就是說我們政治我們是所以經濟方面那另外的就是說我是我是提到說就是說過去美國對於這個台灣日本人這個"},{"start":476.742,"end":477.644,"text":"不過我跟委員報告這一次"},{"start":493.073,"end":514.071,"text":"幾乎所有的貨幣都對美元貶值那為什麼對美元貶值因為美國的經濟在所有的先進經濟體裡面它是一枝獨秀而且它的利率又很高它的經濟強所以這當然大家他也知道"},{"start":514.451,"end":534.902,"text":"他也知道就是說所以我們在報告裡面也講事實上大家沒有競貶主要的還是大家在竹貶那竹貶的話這個就比較合他的意思比較合美國的意思事實上美國是比較在意的就是說在這個議題裡面講的就是說你競貶你這樣的話會產生就是說競爭力但是我們沒有競貶嗎"},{"start":538.544,"end":542.227,"text":"最後30秒請教一下總裁6月13日央行要召開第二季的禮監事會議了媒體在猜上次禮監事會議召開之後有給我們一個驚喜生息辦這次會有驚喜嗎?"},{"start":564.544,"end":564.604,"text":"謝謝總裁 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有請部長 請彭部長"},{"start":14.987,"end":41.239,"text":"賴委員好是部長我今天是回梁家那個因為在上一屆我長時間是待在衛環委員會那其實你是新的部長我有特別觀察你就是你大概是我們所有的部長裡頭最優雅的一個不敢不敢謝謝因為你的西裝西裝口袋常常帶了一個口袋巾況且你的口袋巾還會做不同的一個變化"},{"start":42.399,"end":63.129,"text":"那這樣子的一個這麼講究這個穿著的一個部長然後讓你來我們這個環境部管所有就是我們周邊的一個環境裡頭最需要的這個不管是垃圾的處理還是其他的一個處理這個實在是一個非常妙的一個人才的一個應用"},{"start":64.93,"end":71.834,"text":"我想今天要來跟部長探討就是所有違法的廢棄物這個掩埋其實理見不鮮就是說"},{"start":74.827,"end":99.76,"text":"有沒有辦法去掌握那我們用一個現在看到的一個新竹的案例他的罰款才1500萬可是他的獲利首得有多少他是1.5億的獲利首得那你想想看這樣子的一個那個有這麼好的一個獲利大家其實不斷的真的就是說揮劃掩埋其實絕大部分都是慣患"},{"start":100.64,"end":118.968,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":118.968,"end":137.551,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":138.092,"end":151.592,"text":"買賣的喔,他是把它買來了以後用人頭去就是做這個買家那他把好的土挖掉了,剩下的就是蓋上這些違法的廢棄物"},{"start":153.26,"end":153.28,"text":"：賴惠員"},{"start":169.616,"end":198.285,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":200.588,"end":218.848,"text":"對,我覺得不要用台積電,你應該就是用一般所有中小企業這個所有的一個均值來講我們就是希望用台積電他管理成功的經驗能夠擴散到全台灣所有的廢棄物都要這樣來管制來處理這不可能"},{"start":220.089,"end":245.335,"text":"完全不可能 因為台積電我跟你講 台積電他有很厚實的一個財力 這個板磨工一般才是兩千塊 你知道台積電他一天雇用他們多少 雇用他們四千五可是他要他們就是有非常完整的一個SOP的一個勞工的一個安全"},{"start":246.095,"end":264.92,"text":"所以我覺得你如果這樣子跟我回答的話部長我會覺得你沒有抓到問題的一個重點那我們再來繼續再看下去就是說這個垃圾車在輕盈的路線裡頭有沒有辦法追蹤這個是在上一屆的時候我持續一直在追蹤這個議題"},{"start":266.34,"end":286.578,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":286.638,"end":304.911,"text":"部長,揮霍給我,沒有問題。揮霍把這個資料給我。那現在AI的一個發展在我們臺灣有一個非常好的建制的一個制度有沒有辦法就是在我們所有的垃圾車你甚至就是說在垃圾車清印的一個路線裡頭我覺得"},{"start":306.852,"end":309.394,"text":"再來在這裡跟部長再做一個這個探討就是說"},{"start":323.285,"end":346.596,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":346.916,"end":360.441,"text":"這個不是只有台南有這些問題如果你到了很多的一個縣市很多的一個工業區裡頭你去看到了每一個場每一個場進去的時候都是暫存的一個垃圾在那個地方"},{"start":361.613,"end":383.144,"text":"所以部長我跟你講你這麼優雅你這麼注重你自己本身那你要去這麼多地方都是這麼多本首的地方所以你要知道這本首有多少所以就是說回收的再利用我們知道回收再利用的價格其實是影響民眾的一個回收的一個應用那我想你拿回去檢討"},{"start":384.104,"end":414.104,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":414.548,"end":415.648,"text":"部長我在這裏請問你"},{"start":443.918,"end":468.397,"text":"全國有幾座文化爐?像我們台南,我們台南就有兩座那有多少座?24加5,5是在興建不錯,就是這個後建的5座還是在進行中所以你如何就是說有一個比較好的一個法來管理這個文化爐這個是本席對你的一個期待請你會後把資料給我"},{"start":468.677,"end":476.331,"text":"我們會裝SAMS在每一個焚化爐,未來會這樣處理。你要執行,以前的部長也是這樣講,可是困難在哪裡?"}]}},{"id":"153708","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153708","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5faea84646be284b5d6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1c1c0234b0a221b0dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:27:22 - 10:41:12","影片長度":"00:13:50","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:27:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:41:12+08:00","duration":830,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時27分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請部長跟司法院的刑事廳廳長。"],["主席：請鄭部長和李廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。今天針對通保法的修正，可以說是我們在科技偵查法律授權非常重要的一環，不過因為昨天就已經有民間司改團體聲明，說通保法侵害隱私、資訊自主，當然我看到民間司改會有這樣的聲明，我有點驚訝，所以我就必須要具體地看，通保法草案的侵害隱私跟資訊自主指的到底是什麼，我們等一下進一步地來說明。","不過昨天基層檢察官團體看到民間司改會的聲明，顯然是非常地憤怒，因為我很少看到我們基層檢察官用這麼重的詞，要他們停止禍害國家，這樣繼續搞下去是形同保護詐團。基層檢察官的聲明，部長有沒有看過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：認不認同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個反映就是基層檢察官在辦案的困境。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，基層檢察官的心聲，部長認不認同？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個的確是反映事實面的一些偵辦困境。"],["黃委員國昌：好。我們具體來看，因為我不喜歡討論抽象的問題，用形容詞形容來形容去，一點意義都沒有，我們具體地看，這次通保法的修正是不是真的有去侵害人權的部分，還是在打擊犯罪兼顧保障人權的前提下所必要。","我想這件事情要回顧，在去年夏天的時候，非常多，包括現在已經當政委的臺大法律系的教授林明昕，還有很多臺大跟中研院的學者就說，應該要立法授權設備端的通訊監察跟網路流量紀錄，理由講得非常清楚，但設備端的通訊監察也就是所謂的小木馬，大木馬、小木馬，部長分得清楚嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：分得清楚嘛，我們這次連小木馬都沒有放進來，就是擔心這一步如果跨出去了，我們對於有關通訊監察資料相關目前現有機制的保障是不是能夠做得充足，有很多人很擔心啊，所以最後你們草案也不敢把設備端的通訊監察放進來，我這樣說對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關小木馬這個部分，原來的草案部分因為各界有人權侵略這樣的聲音，所以這部分我們就拿掉了。"],["黃委員國昌：德國的刑事訴訟法有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：德國刑事訴訟法有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛，我們看外國的立法例，因為臺灣在現行執行面上面的資訊控管，大家沒有信心，所以這一步，從保護國家安全的角度來講，我認同學者他們所提出來的呼籲有必要，但現實上的執行機制大家很擔心，所以連行政部門這一次都不敢提，導致我們這次通保法其實只有修網路流量紀錄，而我們要調取網路流量紀錄這件事情為什麼必要？2002年8月裴洛西訪臺的時候，我們關鍵基礎設施遭到駭客攻擊，針對這種駭客攻擊，如果要進一步追查，網路流量紀錄有沒有必要性？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛。好，再來，我們在2020年年底的時候，突然有人在網路上面散播恐嚇的訊息，說要血染臺灣，那個時候可以破案最重要的關鍵，是不是一類電信他們在抽樣的時候剛好有留網路流量紀錄，實際上偵辦的時候是不是這樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個有。"],["黃委員國昌：當初如果沒有留這個網路流量紀錄的話，這個案子可以破案嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有流量紀錄的話，可以讓我們這個破案取得……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們就進一步來看，但問題是網路流量紀錄的修法躺在行政院躺了非常多年，今天終於放到檯面上，針對網路流量紀錄，我們是不是跟通訊的紀錄一樣，到目前為止是採取法官保留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，是法官保留。"],["黃委員國昌：是採取法官保留嘛，這件事情要講清楚啊，由法官在最後把關，網路流量紀錄事實上對於個人資訊，比起通訊的內容，所謂通訊的內容是，我今天打個電話給部長，結果我手機被監聽了，我們兩個講什麼話全部都會被聽到，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，那個是監聽的內容，流量……"],["黃委員國昌：就有關於監聽的部分是不是也是法官保留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是因為它對隱私侵害比較大，所以一定要法官保留。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛。那以網路流量紀錄跟通訊的內容，哪一個對個人隱私權的侵害比較強？"],["鄭部長銘謙：通訊內容。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛。所以如果我們第一步邁出去的時候，就針對網路流量紀錄的部分，我們還是採取法官保留嘛！但有另外一件事情，大家比較擔心的就是通訊使用者的資料，這支手機是屬於誰的、住在哪裡，這個是屬於個人資料的部分，我們目前通保法的規定是不是採取法官保留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！為什麼我們提了草案？我們採取檢察官保留，你們現在一步從法官保留跳到什麼？司法警察官也可以，所以大家會擔心嘛！如果我們這一步不要邁得這麼大步，在兼顧人權保障的情況之下採取檢察官保留，這樣的立場部長支不支持？我問過很多基層檢察官，他們說通訊者的資料，如果這一步不要邁得這麼大，直接授權給警察，採取檢察官保留，他們認為在辦案的實務上是可以的，可以兼顧人權保障跟辦案實際的需求，但現在行政院院版這一步邁得非常地大，直接到給警察了。就這個部分，如果採取檢察官保留，法務部的立場贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是支持行政院版。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不贊成採取檢察官保留？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個部分就是人頭門號非常多，要迅速調閱，如果他還要找檢察官，也人力……"],["黃委員國昌：不會啊！如果這種大型的詐欺犯罪、人頭門號，基本上都是報檢察官指揮在辦案啊！怎麼會是警察在沒有檢察官統一指揮的情況之下，像無頭蒼蠅一樣去辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，重大案件報檢察官指揮，我想這部分是純粹檢察官的主導，如果是一般案件，主要考慮到人頭帳戶非常多，如果每一件都找檢察官，檢察官的整個人力負荷可能會比較吃緊。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！這個可能會牽涉到人權保障跟打擊犯罪中間的平衡點嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我問過非常多的檢察官，他們都贊成，不過部長支持行政院版的立場，沒關係，我們到委員會審查時進一步講。我支持打擊犯罪，就像我今天提案說明的一樣，我們不可以讓壞人精神抖擻，結果好人累得跟狗一樣；然後那些壞人吃香喝辣，結果我們辛苦的基層檢警在後面苦苦追趕。這我絕對支持，但在另外一方面，如果有不肖的檢警跟犯罪集團勾結的話，這件事情絕對不能容忍，一定要嚴懲到底、嚴肅地追辦啦！部長同不同意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：同意，目前就是這樣做了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續來看，郭哲敏洗錢上百億的，88會館的主人，之前你們前任的法務部怎麼縱放的？郭哲敏跑掉喔！檢察官去過他的招待所，結果你們前一任的法務部長軟趴趴啊！問他什麼時候要追究檢察官的責任，推三阻四的，結果不只是郭哲敏，我發現臺灣很奇怪啊！洗錢洗越多的、有招待所的檢警關係都很好啊！郭哲敏拖了快一年才抓回來，現在換涂誠文，涂誠文在去年11月檢方發動搜索的時候，他竟然跑了，他們兩個有什麼共通之處？涂誠文也有設招待所，檢察官也去過啊！警察也去過啊！到現在人還沒有抓回來。","我要問，就郭哲敏的案子，檢察官可以一邊限制出境，一邊放人嗎？郭哲敏的案子來看一下，2022年3月到11月都已經禁管、限制出境出海喔！結果他18號、26號要出境的時候，海關通知檢察官，檢察官說放人，這樣辦案正常嗎？請教部長，您當過檢察長，對犯罪偵查實務應該非常熟悉，我搞不懂，檢察官一方面限制出境出海，一方面放人，結果放人的檢察官去過郭哲敏的招待所，這是什麼跟什麼啊！這種事情不需要嚴肅檢討嗎？來，請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官那部分監察院也談了，現在也是移送到懲戒法院，在審理中了。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！部長，你不會覺得很諷刺嗎？當初我們相信法務部、相信檢察官評鑑委員會，結果兩個跟檢察官最有關係的軟趴趴，反而現在是最不受社會信任的監察院最後把他彈劾了，您不會覺得很諷刺嗎？","除了這個以外，我們再繼續往下看，怎麼這麼巧，涂誠文，請部長仔細看一下他的犯罪歷程，2019年的時候檢警開始偵辦他地下匯兌及洗錢罪嫌，2020年7月檢警到他私人的招待所，你光看這個時序就會覺得匪夷所思啊！一個在被調查地下匯兌跟洗錢的人，我們的檢察官跟警察還呼朋引伴到他的招待所去，可以這樣搞喔！結果等到要對他執行搜索、拘提的時候，他已經跑了，怎麼跑的？有沒有內線消息？怎麼這麼厲害，又跑了！這件事情法務部偵辦的進度如何？跟大家說明一下，拖很久了啦！拖很久了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢還在偵辦中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要偵辦多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們就尊重檢察官的……"],["黃委員國昌：我們當然尊重檢察官嘛！我們現在就是要增加檢察官辦案的能量，希望他們把壞人一網打盡，所以我們現在願意在這邊授權給檢察官更大的權力去做犯罪的偵查。但我要講另外一件事情，我要講的是另外一件事情，當這麼離譜的狀況出現的時候，法務部就躲在檢察官個案偵查後面，有沒有一個基本的態度啊？所謂基本的態度是，這種行為絕不允許，法務部的立場絕不寬貸、嚴懲嚴辦，這樣的立場部長可不可以公開宣誓？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以法務部的立場，我們是不允許所有的檢察官及辦案人員在偵辦個案時有接受招待的情形，我想這部分……"],["黃委員國昌：就有了啊！就有了啊！問題是有了以後，你們的態度是什麼嘛！你們的立場是什麼嘛！你們具體的作為是什麼嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會責請臺高檢署再來做瞭解、調查。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子我會持續地看，第一個，涂誠文什麼時候抓回來？第二個，他怎麼跑的？我們都尊重檢察官的偵辦，但是不要以為新聞熱度過了，偵辦一年、兩年、三年、四年，無疾而終、石沉大海，這個案子會石沉大海嗎？會不會石沉大海？涂誠文抓得回來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們努力。"],["黃委員國昌：當初怎麼跑的？洗錢上百億耶！"],["主席：謝謝……"],["黃委員國昌：洗錢上百億耶！"],["主席：那個……"],["黃委員國昌：我們在修洗錢防制法、在修科技偵查的授權，我們就是希望落實到具體個案的時候，這種離譜的狀況不要發生嘛！新的部長，新的氣象，我希望部長硬起來啊！讓全國人民對我們檢調的偵辦是有信心的，嚴懲犯罪、打擊不法，特別是這種洗錢上百億的大亨，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們努力。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長、謝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ID，可能包含IMEI，也可能有IMSI，因為它沒有講清楚，所以這些東西如果去跟IP來做拼湊的話，這個能夠造成的隱私侵害會比較大。","因為時間的關係，我這邊有一個小小的建議，因為我知道實務上會認為最重本刑三年以上，這樣會造成很多案件你們要做調查卻沒辦法調查，能不能用反面排除？譬如說我們今天排除最重本刑三年以下，我這樣講是因為量能問題，像現在有藐視國會罪，公然侮辱現在比較沒那麼容易成立，還有誹謗，這些比較輕的犯罪如果全部都可以走這一條路的話，有可能到最後警方沒有辦法負荷，沒有辦法負荷，但又不想用原來的最重本刑三年以上，比較可以的作法是不是就是用排除法？譬如說把一些特定的輕罪排除，不然的話，到時候量能沒有辦法負荷的狀況之下，到最後不管是濫用的問題、量能的問題，還有隱私侵害的問題全部結合在一起，我覺得還是會有濫用的可能性。因為時間的關係，部長就很簡短回答一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實我們是認為有取消這個也有限制，譬如說引誘兒少從事色情業的，這個都很輕，如果說這個不拿掉，這個都沒辦法調通聯，而有關於兒少從事色情業這種是我們社會大眾關注的問題。另外，像脫逃罪也是輕罪，像上次的殺警案，如果沒有調紀錄的話，我們沒辦法及時地啟動偵查，會延誤時機，我想這還是有它的必要性。","我想這部分，其實調這些資料，這只是一個偵查最早、最早的一個開端而已，至少希望能夠知道這個被告身分的基本資料，我想這部分對人權的侵害非常小，而且基於公共利益的維護，我們認為是有必要的。"],["沈委員伯洋：我覺得兩個點，第一個就是法定刑本身輕重必須還是要跟隱私侵害做衡量，這還是要做的；第二個就是濫權不一定是在法務部這邊處理，就是我剛剛講的，在第一線的教育訓練可能要來確保這件事情。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分我們來加強。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這可能要跨部會去討論一下，就這兩個點我覺得要稍微注意，尤其在進入逐條討論的時候。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，好。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝鄭部長。也提醒一下今天的列席機關代表，未來我們在進入法條的逐條討論的時候，可能會有類似今天委員關切的部分以修正動議提出，或者以附帶決議的方式表達，請各列席機關代表要先預為因應。","接下來有請黃委員國昌發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.228468750000001,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.084093750000001,"end":82.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.83659375,"end":105.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.09721875000001,"end":89.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.82284375,"end":89.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.86284375000001,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.92159375,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.46534375,"end":109.93784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.66784375,"end":113.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.85721875,"end":113.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.24534375,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.86971875,"end":115.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.88096875000001,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.03284375000001,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.40721875,"end":139.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.79409375,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.54909375,"end":183.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.98596875,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.29346875000002,"end":291.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.52034375000002,"end":189.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.67221875,"end":189.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.37346875000003,"end":346.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.01346875,"end":301.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.08471875000004,"end":304.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.54284375000003,"end":343.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.08659375,"end":360.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.17721875,"end":361.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.15596875,"end":366.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.87721875,"end":363.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.88971875000004,"end":364.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.00721875000005,"end":368.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.10846875000004,"end":368.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.14221875000004,"end":368.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.15909375,"end":368.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.24346875000003,"end":368.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.73284375000003,"end":368.96909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.806,"end":6.288,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":11.349,"end":33.907,"text":"委員好你好部長我今天不會花太多時間因為我大概就只有兩個重點而已因為畢竟這一次的這個通訊保障的地方沒有那麼多那這一次就兩個點第一個當然就是這個使用者資料這一次你們做了一些改變然後再來就是有這個所謂的網路流量紀錄所以我大概就問這兩個點那第一個點就是通訊使用者因為按照現行的法條看起來就是"},{"start":34.708,"end":63.065,"text":"只要有關聯性就可以做調取所以我們看到這個法條現在是說有事實主任那檢察官跟司法這個檢察官就可以直接調取那因為這個在之前我們看一下數據就是說大概一年這個其實因為他本來有這個檢察官保留或法官保留的狀況之下我們看這一個核准大概九成九成那跟法官跟檢察官還有一點落差但是一年呢就還是會有400多件是在檢察官或法官還是被駁回"},{"start":64.686,"end":81.688,"text":"現在如果走這一套那這個應該就不止400多件了應該會更多對不對因為畢竟警察人更多嘛所以在這個狀況之下目前我不是說這個完全不行但這個一定要有配套措施還有救濟那這種配套跟救濟現在法務部會怎麼去設計它"},{"start":82.895,"end":104.06,"text":"那目前我們設計就是其實是我們為什麼使用者資料這是一個身份資料我也都很清楚那所以最基本就是一個開付的一個資料而已就是基本資料那我想這個最隱私權的這個干預是極為輕微那我們為什麼一定要要讓檢警能夠直接去去調取不需要法官的的許可因為這個"},{"start":105.97,"end":130.399,"text":"案件的一個出這一定要特定的一個案件的一個存在然後有他的一個收集的一個必要性對他會有一個案件嗎但是他這個案件本身不是說腐爛的對社會大眾就可以廣泛的說這個這個是要負責任這個是要負民行事或其他的一個責任的這個這個所以這個使用資料不能夠隨便亂掉一定要有前提有案件而且有必要性而且有關聯性常用掉"},{"start":131.359,"end":154.514,"text":"這個案件跟關聯性這件事情因為你可以看到就是說我們左邊這邊是整理了一些新聞就是說之前警察有些濫用個資的狀況那當然我們 這些都被辦了對所以目前來講就是說但是因為這個事實存在嘛也就是說當這個制度被推出去之後呢被濫用的可能性會提高所以不管是我覺得剛剛因為剛剛前面我也有提到通知我覺得這個通知不一定是我們要採取的做法但"},{"start":155.034,"end":180.139,"text":"不管是通知還是救濟因為今天如果你沒有前階段的通知你大概也很難去做後面的救濟所以濫權他不一定要在程序上做保障比如說在警察的教育訓練啊什麼等等之類的這一類要因為這個濫權的可能性會很高那如果我們在盤點的狀況之下我覺得這件事情是一定要注意隱私親愛很小這件事情我覺得大概跟等一下我要問的比較不一樣但這件事情我覺得要注意這是第一點"},{"start":180.879,"end":199.917,"text":"第二點就是在這個網路流量資料因為之前我們是有這個最重本刑三年以上這樣的限制那這個限制呢我看修法理由有提到說這個就是會造成一些困擾就是說有些案件沒有辦法辦那現在很麻煩的地方就是說如果這個限制拿掉的話會變成說他"},{"start":202.199,"end":216.1,"text":"因為他本身沒有這個重刑的這個限制或者這種中度案件的限制變成說他現在要做這件事情變得很方便那因為網路流量資料這邊我就不進入細節因為他的這一邊的這個修法有提到這個叫做"},{"start":217.762,"end":246.499,"text":"通訊設備識別資料這個識別資料其實比較不清楚因為他可能包含device ID他可能包含IMEI他可能也可能有IMSI因為他沒有講清楚所以這些東西如果去跟IP來做拼湊的話這個能夠造成的隱私情案會比較大那我這邊有因為時間的關係我這邊是一個小小的建議就是說因為我知道因為實務上會認為最重本刑三年以上這樣會造成很多案件你們要做這個調查沒辦法調查嘛"},{"start":247.66,"end":267.783,"text":"那能不能用反面排除的比如說我們今天排除最重本刑三年以下那我這樣講是因為量能問題因為如果按照比如說像現在有藐視國會罪那公然侮辱現在比較沒那麼容易成立還有誹謗這些比較輕的犯罪如果全部都可以走這一條路的話他有可能到最後是警方沒有辦法負荷啦"},{"start":268.223,"end":268.924,"text":"因為時間的關係部長就簡短回答一下"},{"start":292.441,"end":311.992,"text":"其實我們是認為有取消這個限制比如說我們那個引誘兒少從事色情業的這個都是很輕如果說這個不拿掉這個都沒辦法掉通年那這個兒少的這個屬於那個從事色情業這一種的這個是我們社會大眾關注的問題那另外像脫逃罪這也是輕罪"},{"start":312.492,"end":339.822,"text":"那個那個這個像我們上次那個殺警案這個如果說沒有掉這個這個這個紀錄的話我們沒辦法即時的去去直接就就就做一個偵查的一個一個啟啟動那會延路時機那我想這個還是有他一個必要性啊那我想我們這部分其實掉這些的資料這是一個爭吵最早最早的一個開端而已至少知道知道希望能夠能夠知道這個這個被告的一個一個身份吼這個基本的一個資料"},{"start":340.742,"end":366.638,"text":"我想這部分對人權的一個侵害非常小而且既以公共利益的維護我們認為是有必要的我覺得兩個點第一個就是說法定刑本身輕重這個必須就是還是要跟隱私清單做衡量這個是還是要做的第二個就是濫權他不一定是在法務部這邊做但就是我剛剛講的他在第一線的教育訓練這件事情可能要跟權這部分我們來加強對這個可能要跨部會要去討論一下就這兩個點我覺得要稍微注意尤其在進入主條的時候好謝謝好謝謝沈委員"}]}},{"id":"153706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d525c84d29c39c3ee7d6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1cf0c0b32b082070385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:08:09 - 10:20:38","影片長度":"00:12:29","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:08:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:20:38+08:00","duration":749,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":418,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時8分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我念一個條文給你聽，就是我們昨天審的科技偵查及保障法草案第二條，第二條第一項規定「偵查中檢察官認為有必要時，得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人生物特徵之科技方法追蹤位置；檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察因調查犯罪情形及蒐集證據認有必要時，亦同」。我想請問你，這一條拿掉了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這條沒有拿掉，這是原來草案的第三條。"],["羅委員智強：非常好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天委員很關心，因為這是列舉，我跟委員說明。"],["羅委員智強：我先跟部長講，我謝謝你澄清，昨天我問你這一條，你說拿掉了，但事實上是沒有拿掉。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為……"],["羅委員智強：你先聽我講完，沒關係，部長，你說謊嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，可能是……"],["羅委員智強：你騙我嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們昨天是討論到，因為昨天委員一開始有……"],["羅委員智強：我直接幫你講答案好不好？部長，我不認為你說謊，我也不認為你騙人，因為你們的次長跟你們的幕僚跟我講，說你可能理解錯誤，我講這一條你可能理解到別的地方去，然後你也可能口誤。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是第二條，拿掉的是原本的第二條。"],["羅委員智強：我昨天明確的問你是第二條第一項，我不認為你說謊，你現在的意思是你騙我、說謊嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我講的拿掉的是屬於原草案的……"],["羅委員智強：我沒問你這個嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：第二條的概括授權……"],["羅委員智強：我沒有問你概括授權嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個已經拿掉了。"],["羅委員智強：我昨天問你概括授權嗎？主席在旁邊聽到我問你的就是這一條。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這一條是絕對不會拿掉，這一條……"],["羅委員智強：答對了嘛！我之所以說你不會說謊，我不認為你說謊，因為這一條絕對不會拿掉嘛！可是你今天防禦心太重，我問你這一條，你直接說這一條拿掉了。我跟部長說，今天雖然國會改革法案已經通過，因為還沒生效，裡面有所謂的說謊官員罪，但這一罪我在這邊直接做示範，辦不到你，你知道為什麼嗎？你知道為什麼辦不到你嗎？因為我不認為你說謊，因為我認為我講這個條文，你可能理解錯誤，昨天主席也講理解錯誤，理解錯誤不算說謊，我接受，因為不可能拿掉，我不認為你說謊，我幫你辯護耶！部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：對，可是我告訴你，部長，請問昨天是你理解錯誤，還是我被你打臉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：昨天我們是就法條的內容……"],["羅委員智強：抱歉喔！雖然我很體諒，昨天也沒有要幹什麼，你有沒有發現，你問你的幕僚，來跟我解釋，我就接受，我當然說那我接受，我講的法條部長可能理解到別的地方去，我接受這個說法。可是抱歉，綠營的側翼可不是這麼看，到處做影片開始說我被你打臉，請問我被你打臉了嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們在做一個釐清。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！我們就在做釐清嘛！我只問你，部長，我被你打臉了嗎？還是昨天在溝通的過程當中，你對我講的法條有誤解？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可能我是對第二條是不是概括授權的……"],["羅委員智強：我就跟你講我沒有講概括授權，我講的是第一條第一項，我才講第一項，你就跟我講拿掉了，你就講拿掉了，我沒有講到概括授權的問題，我講第一項，你就講拿掉了，昨天的影片很清楚。所以抱歉部長，我告訴你，我也已經採取法律行動了，因為我沒辦法容許，今天這麼明顯的一個狀況，還要在網路上造謠扭曲，那個側翼粉專也把相關的文章撤下來，但是我今天要跟部長講，本來昨天說的，我也接受我們主席的說法，所以我昨天沒有說什麼事，可是抱歉，我今天必須鄭重的澄清，我還是說一句話，部長，以後我們在詢答的過程當中，請你聽仔細我的問題好不好？我沒有問的問題，你不要馬上跳出來先做超越性的回答。","第二個，針對今天的通保法包括昨天科偵法，我有很多的問題要請教部長，首先，我想請教您，你知道過去我們發生很多的大案，包括高虹安案、楊文科案或林姿妙案，都發生一件事情，就是在檢察官開始去偵辦的過程當中，奇怪！鏡週刊統統都知道所有的案情，所以很多人質疑你的偵查不公開沒有落實，可是部長，我有問過前面蔡清祥部長這個問題，他是說這個東西難以稽考，因為不能保證是檢察官或法務部洩漏的，你是持同樣的看法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：媒體的來源我們並不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，我告訴你，其實偵查不公開的問題連我自己都曾經遇過，我曾經因為一個洩密案被當證人約談，檢察官還當場跟我說：羅先生，因為偵查不公開，你出去後不要對外講。結果一出去之後，媒體全部都報導出來了。當然法務部可以說這個跟法務部沒關係，但是實際上偵查不公開淪為一紙虛文，甚至變成是今天拿來帶風向的工具，這已經是大家昭昭然的事實。這跟今天不管是科偵法或者通保法有什麼關聯性？","我想要請教一下，第一個對通信紀錄的部分，我認同法務部說的，它的侵害性較小，你知道我為什麼認同通信紀錄侵害性較小呢？所以可以給予比較多的一般性授權，或是最多到所謂的事後或是檢察官保留，你知道為什麼嗎？你知道為什麼通信紀錄這一部分，我覺得相對來講侵害比較小，為什麼？因為現在沒什麼人在打電話了啦！大家談事情都用什麼東西在談？剛剛前面林思銘委員講的，是用什麼東西談？部長，你現在溝通還用電話溝通嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我的習慣是用LINE。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！所以換言之，通信紀錄這個部分確實如你所說，因為時代變遷的關係，它的侵犯性較小，但是抱歉！網路足跡我不認為喔！網路足跡我只問你一件事情，網路足跡今天你調查到，我舉個例子，賴清德總統如果說他很喜歡勞力士錶，他到購物網站去看勞力士錶，就被你們開始要去蒐集……這個賴清德不一定那位總統賴清德，我只是舉個名字而已，或是有一位賴清德的祖厝想要信託，他答應祖厝要信託，結果祖厝沒有信託、跳票了，他到法律網站去諮詢，這個網路的足跡一旦被列為你們要偵查的對象的話，這個網路足跡看不看得到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：網路足跡在第三條之一……"],["羅委員智強：看不看得到嘛？我只問你看不看得到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有內容的問題，我們這個沒有內容……"],["羅委員智強：你們可以查他去哪個網站，我沒講內容啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為哪個網站我是不能查的。"],["羅委員智強：那你可以查哪個當事人嘛！都不能查？請問你到底查什麼？你到底查什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就是從裡面……我們不會知道網址，我們只知道譬如他的IP位置，但是我們不知道網址。"],["羅委員智強：你說IP位置不能查？不能做後續偵查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個是我們查的，IP是可以嘛！但是我們……"],["羅委員智強：可以啊！你就講可以啊！IP不能查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：IP可以查……"],["羅委員智強：你講的是後續作為要不要啟動的問題，對不對？前端作為你要做，你去蒐集IP，至於後續作為你要不要做進一步？那是進一步的問題，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個是網路網址，這個就是……"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！部長，我時間真的有限，你每次在這種細節的地方都要帶到外太空去，我也質詢不完。可是我回頭要講一件事情，我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王義川？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，不可能這些資料……"],["羅委員智強：你當然講不可能啊！你會不會……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這是犯罪……"],["羅委員智強：那我這樣問你，你會不會違法偵查公開？你會不會？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不會把這個訊息……偵查秘密，我們不會這個公開。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，你當然說不會嘛！就像說你會偵查不公開，你也保證所有偵辦案件你們會做到偵查不公開，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會要求要嚴守偵查不公開的原則。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件，只要是重大案件，就有週刊馬上報導出來啊！到現在為止，只有法務部還在象牙塔裡面，認為你的偵查不公開做得很好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，即使媒體知道跟這個案子有關的，也不能就說是我們……"],["羅委員智強：我當然知道你的辯解，我講的是結果論，不是講你今天主觀論。你主觀論認為你偵查不公開做得很好，但是在現實上，每個重大案件都這麼巧，統統都偵查公開了！也許不是法務部，也許是警政署，也許是別的人，我不知道啊！但是我看到這已經是普遍性現象，我只問一件事情，你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王義川，抱歉！我只能盲目地相信你，因為我很信任部長，可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題，今天立法院法制局講的，你今天如果事前跟我講，包括昨天我們講所謂的科偵的GPS的作為，你說事前法官人力不夠，檢察官人力不夠，沒辦法法官保留，沒辦法相對法官保留，沒辦法檢察官保留，我非得要辦案，我一定要有效率，一定要及時抓到人。好啦！為了打詐，當然其實這部法不只是規範打詐，沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個以打詐為大宗。"],["羅委員智強：打詐只是其中之一嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個是最重要的一部分。"],["羅委員智強：最重要之一也是你的主觀評價，但是它牽連到所有的犯罪類型，全部都有！沒有關係，我跟你講，昨天已經講過這個了，我不打算再跟你爭論下去。我要講的是什麼？我要講的是，今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講，檢察官保留、法官保留是為了打詐，這個目標很宏大，我支持打詐，可是至少你要做到一件事情，就是你事後總要通知當事人吧！","報告主席，這個問題，因為前面我先做很多澄清。你事後總要通知當事人吧？要不要？我今天被科偵了，我被找到GPS了，事前你說因為打詐的犯罪偵防的速率、效率……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們監聽就會通知當事人嘛，這個也可以有……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有嘛？現在有沒有規範嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個監聽……"],["羅委員智強：監聽而已啊！我講的是科偵，我講的是GPS，我講的是通訊紀錄，我講的是今天網路的紀錄。"],["鄭部長銘謙：科偵法那個GPS那一種的法官保留，法官就會通知了。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是24小時內，你不要給我跳躍概念，我講的是24小時內沒有法官保留的，還是說你24小時內也是法官保留，是嗎？"],["鄭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這個是王國王子我跟你講 所以部長我時間真的有限你每次在這種細節的地方要跟我帶到外太空去我也質詢不完可是我回頭要講一件事情我怎麼知道你會不會把這些資料交給王逸川"},{"start":499.892,"end":526.837,"text":"你當然講不可能阿你會不會那我這樣問你齁你會違法偵查公開你會不會我跟你講我跟你講你當然說不會嘛就像說你會偵查不公開你也跟我保證你保證你們做所有偵查案件你們會做到偵查不公開嘛對不對對嘛可是你的嚴守到現在事實上所有的案件只要重大案件"},{"start":527.757,"end":545.799,"text":"就周刊馬上報導出啊我告訴你到現在為止只有法務部還在下壓他認為你的偵查公開做得很好偵查不公開做得很好我當然知道你的辯解我講的是結果論不是講你今天主觀論你主觀論認為偵查不公開做得很好但是仿在現在現實上"},{"start":547.642,"end":574.265,"text":"每個重大案件都這麼巧通通都偵查公開了也許不是法務部也許警政署也許是別的人我不知道啊但是我看到這件普遍性現象我只問一件事情你空口保證說今天你不會拿給王逸川抱歉我只能盲目的相信你欸因為我很信任部長欸可是我今天跟你講一個最嚴重的問題是什麼我今天堅持就今天立法院法治局講的"},{"start":575.663,"end":595.874,"text":"你今天如果事前你跟我講不知道昨天的我們講這個所謂的科偵的一個作為GPS的作為說他事前法官能力不夠檢察官能力不夠沒辦法法官保留沒辦法相對法官保留沒辦法檢察官保留我非得要辦案我一定要有效率一定要及時抓到人好啦為了打詐但其實這部法不只是規範打詐沒錯吧"},{"start":598.387,"end":611.586,"text":"打詐只是其中之一嘛最重要之一也是你的主觀評價但是要牽連到所有的犯罪類型全部都有沒有關係我跟你講昨天已經講過這我不打算跟你爭論下去我要講的是什麼"},{"start":612.745,"end":637.209,"text":"我要講的是說今天這些東西如果你事前跟我講檢察官保留法官保留你是為了打仗這個目標很宏大我支持打仗可是至少你要做到一件事情你事後總要通知當事人吧報告主席這個問題因為前面我先做很多澄清你事後總要通知當事人吧要不要"},{"start":639.431,"end":658.964,"text":"要不要我今天被科徵了我被找到GPS了事前你說打詐的一個一個所謂戰隊征防的速率效率我們那個監聽就有通知當事人嗎那這個也可以有一到有沒有嘛現在有沒有規範嘛那個監聽這麼速那個我監聽而已啊我講的是科徵我講的是GPS我講的是通訊記錄我講的是"},{"start":661.286,"end":673.794,"text":"今天網路的紀錄我講的是二十四小時內你不要跟我跳跳跳跳概念我講的是二十四小時內沒有法官保留欸你還是說你二十四小時內是法官保留是嗎"},{"start":676.315,"end":698.556,"text":"當然不是嘛所以部長真的說真的齁你今天昨天為什麼出這個狀況就是我問A你要跳到B回答才會造成昨天的情況我沒有認為你說謊但是你的答詢模式我認為大有問題最後我還要再強調一件事情你事前說你今天為了犯罪增防的效率齁我跟你講說真的這帽子很大啦我也不知道怎麼跟你講啦"},{"start":699.844,"end":721.031,"text":"但是人權保障的部分你至少事後要做到你可以答應我今天不管是GPS只要被調到的人只要是今天通訊監察被所謂的通訊記錄跟網路記錄被調到的人你案件偵辦結束之後發個通知書跟他講說你被柯真了你被通聯記錄了你被網路記錄了你做不做得到做不到修法"},{"start":724.912,"end":737.165,"text":"真的啊事後你不要跟我講人力不足喔事後人力不足變成藉口事前是因為犯罪征訪我給你這個空間但事後連這個都不做我跟你講就是偷懶兩個字以上謝謝接下來請"}]}},{"id":"153705","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153705","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5695c696533d95714f3bd234b5abfe8c98282b1d5b897dd1cf2e44bbea44e61d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:34:23 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,{"start":204.268,"end":230.14,"text":"是不是因為部隊業務繁重還是部隊內有一些霸凌甚至於管教不當等等還是感情因素財務因素那個部長你有什麼看法我的了解好像還是以這個經濟的因素家庭的因素還有感情因素也有等等這些都有但沒有在特定的哪一個單位好像是分屬不同的單位這樣子"},{"start":230.7,"end":248.095,"text":"部長,官兵不分官階,都是國家栽培,本身是希望顧部長好好的深入了解,維護整個國軍官兵的權利,不要讓這些基層過勞甚至於顧部長要好好的秉公處理,該補的人還是要補人,你的看法呢?"},{"start":249.361,"end":265.798,"text":"我想這個我們的新府的作為有在加強的地方剛剛有其他委員也有在指教那另外就是說相關的這些戰訓本務之外的這些減少一些比較形式性的一些勤務"},{"start":267.059,"end":272.622,"text":"顧部長您過去曾擔任國安會的秘書長蔡總統時期也打算修改全民防衛動員的準備法引發社會的一些議論那被社會大眾批評為為何要動員高中生後來暫緩修法"},{"start":293.075,"end":312.81,"text":"那教育部也停止造冊按照權動法的規定要對學校青年動員來扶勤進行規劃那請問顧部長如果進入動員實施階段全國高中生自我可以留在家裡避難不出門可以嗎"},{"start":313.67,"end":334.032,"text":"我想這個部分相關的這些權動法下底下的這相關各部會的一些相關的作為都需要有值得檢討的地方我相信不會有什麼高中生參軍的這樣子的一個作為存在"},{"start":334.913,"end":344.009,"text":"顧部長,全國高中生是否會被國防部和交易部動員到指定的地方來執行保鄉保土甚至於保校的任務,會不會?"},{"start":346.298,"end":371.727,"text":"就我的理解應該是沒有這樣子報告委員有關於高中生的部分是教育部他們會依據這個民防法的規定納入這個民防團隊裡面的一個青年扶勤那基本上他們是以自願的方式去扶勤然後再者就是他對再者就是他也只會負責一些簡單的服務不會從事任何軍事情務謝謝林德福委員謝謝來各位請回"}]}},{"id":"153704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d509908126994199e32248f66a23a11b538282b1d5b897dd1c5656869f75d93f9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:28:24 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10:38:28","影片長度":"00:10:04","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:28:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:38:28+08:00","duration":604,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時28分）請總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁好。總裁，很多委員都有關心到房價的問題，因為最近房價確實有提高，非常明顯，在幾個都會區都有，臺北市的漲幅可能相對還少一些，但是房價確實蠢蠢欲動，請問央行最近有找銀行，甚至有找房仲業來瞭解房市嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，從選擇性信用管制之後，我們在每一季之間都會分別請銀行或專家學者來討論一下。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有找房仲業？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們有邀請過房仲業的研究單位。"],["王委員鴻薇：最近三個月有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：最近三個月我就不曉得。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼會不曉得？有找的話，總裁一定知道，我認為是有啦。關於現在的房價，我給你看這張照片，最近在桃園甚至出現搭帳篷、帶躺椅排隊買房子的情況，當然這就是被房仲界還有賣房子的炒一波，某種程度也許是帶風向，但是確實感覺房市有熱起來。因為下個禮拜央行就要召開理監事會，所以大家特別關心中央銀行會不會針對房市的部分採取新的房市信用管制，有嗎？目前在中央銀行的規劃裡面，可不可能、會不會排除有新的房市信用管制？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，一樣的，我們從選擇性信用管制實施之後，每一季的理監事會都會討論到房地產的議題。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以下禮拜也會？"],["楊總裁金龍：也會。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前有沒有可能有新的相關的房市信用管制呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：在當天我會看看委員有什麼樣的想法。"],["王委員鴻薇：大家的意見？"],["楊總裁金龍：大家的意見形成共識，就會有一些決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以不排除啦！另外，大家比較關心新的政策，因為央行的工具也很多，比如，之前大家一直談到豪宅的定義，總裁在今年3月的時候曾經講過，雖然財政部提高了這個門檻，但是央行和財政部的政策功能是不一樣的，所以不一定財政部要做，你們就一定要按照財政部的標準。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在還是如此嗎？對於豪宅的定義，比如央行是7,000萬，可是財政部已經下調到6,000萬，你們兩邊就在隔壁，有沒有可能可以一致，有沒有考慮，因為已經時隔差不多三個月了？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，委員記憶得非常清楚，在3月的時候我們確實有針對這個議題做解釋，但是我也跟委員報告，我們的豪宅金額是管制措施強弱的門檻，所謂強弱的門檻就是假設我們要強一點的話，當然我們就調下來。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒錯。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們如果想要弱一點的話，我們就調上去一點，所以針對這個門檻，財政部純粹是就租稅的理由來做的。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，房屋交易所得稅。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以它跟我們是不一樣的理由。"],["王委員鴻薇：它多課一點稅。"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛講這是強弱的門檻，如果我要強一點的話，我可以調下來。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問總裁，現階段你們會管制強一點，還是會不動，還是更弱一點？我覺得弱一點是不可能，弱的選項應該是不用選，所以是維持原來，還是更強一點，在這兩者之間，你們有沒有在考慮？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，你講到這一個議題的時候，當然我們會去討論，這是第一個。第二個，選擇性信用管制誠如剛剛委員在講的，我們還有其他的工具，所以也不是只有針對這個來討論，還有其他的工具可以討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外一個工具是大家也討論很多的，就是對於第二戶的貸款成數有沒有可能把它調降？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們也會討論，剛剛委員也講了，我們的工具還有。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以下個禮拜有可能討論到豪宅的門檻要不要調低，還有可能討論第二戶的貸款成數會不會降低，還有最重要，市場在看的，我們會不會再升息？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也已經講了，升息當然也是手段，不過升息的主要目標是通膨。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，是物價。"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛也解釋了，它雖然只有針對通膨，但是它也會影響到房地產。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，沒有錯。總裁，其實在你們上一次升息之前，我們同樣也是在立法院財委會，那個時候是面臨到4月份馬上要調電價，所以那時候你們覺得通膨壓力比較大一點，最近的數字雖然還是在2%以上，但是目前看起來，跟調電價之前感覺沒有這麼緊張，您同不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們都密切在注意，我也感覺到好像是這樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，你同意我講的話嘛，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然很多人就會去猜測，因為下禮拜也就會揭曉了，我剛才講到的升息、調降豪宅門檻，還有第二戶的貸款成數降低，在下個星期我們會不會看到任何一個措施，因為你們不可能同時都做，同時都做這個力道太強了，我也覺得這個對市場不是很好。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！"],["王委員鴻薇：可能是三擇一，在三個手段裡面選擇一個？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，我在想是不是選擇或是都沒有，我跟委員報告，這是我們理事要在共同討論之後，大家有一個共識，才會說要怎麼樣做。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，反正大家看下禮拜的結果。","另外，我們今天講到日幣，因為日幣貶很多，今年臺幣也貶很多，日幣也貶很多，這當然不是中央銀行的任務，不過我在這邊要幫消費者講一下話，日幣貶那麼多，但是日系商品我們現在沒有看到調價欸！總裁有沒有注意到？我們日系的商品、日系的車子，日本料理更貴，對不對？我想你們去吃日本料理有便宜嗎？還說什麼日本空運來臺，有沒有更便宜？日系的化妝品也沒有便宜，很多家電也沒有便宜，所以這個是不是對消費者來講不是很合理，總裁同不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也覺得同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們其實也應該呼籲進口商，某一個程度要反映匯率貶值，沒有錯啊！現在很多國人就跑到日本去玩，大家就說：喔！這個時候去日本玩最好，這個時候去日本採買最好。我們跟日本進口這麼多的商品，可是日系產品聞風未動，沒有降價，總裁要不要一起譴責一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，相關部會共同來努力啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：對。其實你看央行覺得大家要配合一下政策，也會請大家來瞭解一下，剛剛講的請銀行來一下、請房仲來一下，相關的部會也應該對這種大的日系產品，我覺得都沒有降價，這根本是吃定消費者，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位質詢請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.82346875,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.27034375,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.231593750000002,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.61971875,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.665968750000001,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.695343750000003,"end":43.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.84721875,"end":14.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.70721875,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.19659375,"end":20.247218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.805968750000005,"end":35.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.85659375,"end":35.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.94096875,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.00846875,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.24784375,"end":43.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.34909375,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.720343750000005,"end":47.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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我在想是不是選擇或是都沒有那這個我就跟委員報告這個是我們的這個理事要共同要討論之後大家有一個共識然後才說要怎麼樣"},{"start":481.121,"end":506.135,"text":"好反正大家看下禮拜不過另外就是其實我們今天講到是日幣啊因為日幣貶很多今年呢台幣貶也很多日幣也貶很多不過我在這邊呢這當然不是中央銀行的這個職務啦任務我是要幫消費者講一下話日幣貶那麼多但是呢我們日系的商品啊我們現在沒有看到條價耶"},{"start":508.996,"end":530.454,"text":"總裁有沒有注意到我們日系的商品日系的車子日本料理更貴對不對我想你們去吃日本料理有便宜嗎還說什麼日本空運來台也沒有更便宜日系的化妝品也沒有便宜很多家電也沒有便宜所以這個是不是對消費者來講不是不是很合理"},{"start":531.468,"end":559.079,"text":"總裁同不同意?我也覺得同意所以我們其實也應該呼籲我們的進口商他也某一個程度他要反映這個匯率貶值不是說沒有錯我們現在就很多國人就跑到日本去玩大家就這個時候去日本玩最好這個時候去日本採買最好可是我們跟日本進口這麼多的商品可是日系產品聞風味道沒有降價"},{"start":560.74,"end":589.077,"text":"總裁要不要一起譴責一下就說相關部會相關部會就是說共同來來努力對其實你看我們央行覺得有些大家要配合一下政策也會請來了解一下剛剛講嘛請銀行來一下請房仲來一下我覺得我們的相關的這個部會也應該就這種大的這種日系產品我覺得都沒有降價這根本是吃定消費者"},{"start":589.397,"end":589.938,"text":"李崑禾 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個多月的時間，希望部長在此案的後續處理一定要明快，才能透過巴黎奧運的機會讓全世界看到最好的臺灣，好不好？再次謝謝部長，我們一起為臺灣提升能見度做努力，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員，部長請回。在郭昱晴委員質詢完後，我們休息5分鐘。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.04159375,"end":18.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.85909375,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.17909375,"end":35.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.68346875,"end":103.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.43159375,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.49346875,"end":129.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.48346875000001,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.10784375,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.32409375,"end":178.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.65284375000002,"end":183.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.01096875000002,"end":182.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.25971875000002,"end":328.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.59096875,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.62034375,"end":338.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.19284375,"end":341.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.95221875000004,"end":354.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.08534375000005,"end":360.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.19409375000004,"end":360.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.24471875,"end":362.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.72534375000004,"end":365.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.32409375000003,"end":388.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.16284375000004,"end":372.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.88159375000004,"end":432.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.90846875000005,"end":437.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.67534375,"end":440.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.62034375,"end":452.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.29346875000005,"end":499.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.23971875,"end":509.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.59659375,"end":515.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.25846875,"end":526.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.25721875,"end":558.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.74159375,"end":529.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.2053437500001,"end":561.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.7153437500001,"end":565.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.21284375,"end":564.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.9384687500001,"end":629.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.14784375,"end":629.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.2322187500001,"end":629.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.31659375,"end":629.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.6709687499999,"end":629.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.68784375,"end":629.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.8015937499999,"end":634.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.1003437500001,"end":646.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.9678437499999,"end":690.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.83846875,"end":743.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.32409375,"end":802.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":803.3484687500002,"end":806.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":806.5547187500001,"end":838.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":838.83659375,"end":840.50721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":21.95,"text":"葛如鈞委員好,謝謝主席有請文化部李遠部長以及交流司紀東洋代理司長好,有請部長跟司長"},{"start":25.05,"end":35.48,"text":"早上好部長我已經說過你是我的偶像我就不再說了今天這個主題國家語言發展法很重要那我也先稍微說一下AI會是我們非常重要的"},{"start":36.718,"end":37.318,"text":"主題是超人特攻隊2"},{"start":54.844,"end":76.518,"text":"抄襲案件陳舒不窮文化部近期就有兩件一件就是台灣館的阿龍已經被證實當然我們也覺得有負責是不錯但是希望這件事情不要再發生但是我們還有另外一件事情另外一個超人事件其實目前還想要了解一下後續的處理情形"},{"start":77.438,"end":102.827,"text":"就是這個巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺一次抄襲了Apple emoji那上一次質詢的時候我們就要求文化部要針對這個emoji太過於類似蘋果的這個所謂表情符號法律授權的問題要在一週內以書面回覆現在一週的時間已經過去請教一下部長巴黎文化奧運臺灣館的主視覺emoji是否已向Apple的法律部門請求授權"},{"start":110.473,"end":117.265,"text":"暫時委員有提出質疑之後雖然我們的設計師不認為他那個算抄襲但是為了"},{"start":118.69,"end":147.323,"text":"為了這個問題他重新設計了沒有另外收設計費新的那個設計圖案我想會有提供給這個委員看完全不像了我們這裡得到的回應說本案設計是全新繪製不需要授權然後也再請教部長文化部回應本案為全新繪製就是說他只是說這個是我自己畫的我沒有抄襲如果你覺得很奇怪的話我就重畫一個這個真的我覺得這種方式我們還是要來了解一下"},{"start":148.243,"end":174.893,"text":"他說這個圖樣是全新繪製因為我們記者會已經開了我們已經公布這個設計了如果我們以後所有的設計師都畫完開完記者會大家說不滿意那我們重畫收回我覺得這件事情也不是這樣我先確認一下設計師有沒有提出創作過程的證明說他是創新他是全新繪製或者請公正的第三方對本案進行抄襲鑑定有沒有"},{"start":181.547,"end":195.452,"text":"我想上一次質詢的時候部長就有說阿龍事件不要再發生因為不要去單方面的片面相信彩信廠商的說辭但這一次我們好像又來相信廠商了那我們再來看一下"},{"start":196.232,"end":211.315,"text":"文化部對於設計理念的說明說文化部表示設計理念在世界通用的表情符號語言導入臺灣的W串聯在一起創意的核心是開創運用表情符號的新詮釋而非創作表情符號我幫您翻譯一下"},{"start":212.176,"end":227.991,"text":"文化部的意思是這個設計案的創意不在於畫表情符號而在於運用表情符號上一次質詢您的時候您有一個回答說如果可以你會自己畫一隻貓一隻狗我基本上是這個眼淚已經泛在眼眶都快要掉下來真的是覺得非常感動"},{"start":228.872,"end":241.115,"text":"但是我們現在文化部對於這個設計的回答說它是一下又說它的重點在於畫在於運用一下又說設計者自行繪製然後等到自己有點搞不清楚狀況就說反正他會重做一個然後不收錢我要再次強調這一次我提出這個案件的重點是表情符號表情符號的圖樣是有版權的如果想要使用就應該要依法律程序請求授權"},{"start":257.498,"end":273.552,"text":"如果有使用就大方承認有用要參考就大方承認有參考對文化部來講尊重原創的精神其實沒有這麼困難結果我們得到文化部的神邏輯一本正經的去講說兩個愛心疊在一起就是原創那我想就是說那我兩個耐心的疊在一起就屬於我的原創嗎那這樣正好解決臺文館的問題啊他們根本白道歉啊"},{"start":283.9,"end":304.621,"text":"一隻阿龍是抄襲,兩隻阿龍疊在一起就變成原創這可能會在台灣設計界或全世界的設計界投下一顆震撼彈要確認喔,這真的不是這樣,我想先確認一下因為這是我們得到的回覆啦當然後續的處理是後續處理,我們待會兒會提到那我們先講這個是一個精神的問題"},{"start":305.262,"end":315.248,"text":"我們文化部要帶頭尊重版權要有版權意識我們也要有原創的精神跟意識我先確認一下因為我們今天這樣的對話都會影響臺灣未來的這些設計公司做設計人員原創的參考請部長回答一下兩顆愛心堆疊在一起如果是學別人畫的把兩顆學別人畫的愛心疊在一起符合您所說的原創精神嗎"},{"start":331.698,"end":359.496,"text":"給您看一下這是文化部的回應其實我回答不了因為我跟不上他這個所謂Emoji這個東西算不算你可回答跟委員報告因為我們跟設計師溝通的過程裡面因為像表情符號它原本就是有各種不同版本有Android系統的 有Apple系統 有Google系統我們上一次已經比較過了這個是高度相似於Apple系統的Apple系統的Emoji是有版權的"},{"start":361.977,"end":388.195,"text":"大家現在直接拿出iPhone來你弄一個愛心出來就是長這個樣子如果我們單純使用一個愛心的話那當然是各個有各種不同的版本設計師是說他的創意的使用的方法那這個部分我們是接受可是我們也跟他提到說這對於一般社會大眾來講他還是會有一些誤解的地方所以設計師就說那我們就從在同樣的概念下他會重新設計"},{"start":388.916,"end":404.826,"text":"好 謝謝您的回答這不是對一般大眾而已蘋果是現在市值全世界排名第二的公司我們是要尊重蘋果認定我們的筆業的手勢筆愛心到底是不是有"},{"start":406.086,"end":422.814,"text":"嚴重的參考了他的圖像的設計建成的設計這個回答對臺灣的設計界非常的重要堆疊在一起就可以你剛剛有說啊單獨使用一顆就沒有問題那使用兩顆呢難道就可以排除抄襲的可能就不用確認授權嗎"},{"start":424.775,"end":436.505,"text":"再來我想問那文化部出資到巴黎設置文化場館希望利用巴黎奧運的機會宣揚臺灣文化我們用這樣子Emoji用這個筆頁就代表臺灣文化了嗎?你有微笑我們就當作理解我們就往下其實這還真的只是一個開場而已我們來看還有一個更嚴重的問題我們其實我這真的不知道要怎麼問下去"},{"start":454.325,"end":463.55,"text":"這個案子哪個單位主責的?文化部交流司兩度以書面回覆本案是文化部以臺法文化交流專案這個專案破譯喔補助財團法人臺灣文化基金會再由基金會去辦理這個設計案"},{"start":471.275,"end":497.321,"text":"回覆的原文我直接放在頭影片請在座的各位看看財團法人臺灣文化基金會結果我們依據回覆的結果我們翻遍了所有的預算書跟這個公務單位的資料完全查無詞彙最後我們只能懷疑有一個名字相似的由王詩詩次長擔任董事長的財團法人文化臺灣基金會113年度文化部以公務預算補助該基金會3500萬"},{"start":500.743,"end":509.575,"text":"文化台灣 結果你們回復我們是台灣文化到底文化不是遇到詐騙集團還是誇張到連自己補助哪一個財產法人都搞不清楚請部長回應一下好不好"},{"start":512.556,"end":540.743,"text":"據我了解這是等於是我們的文化部另外設的一個基金會就有點像我在台北市的時候我們的那個文化局有另外一個文化基金會是是是 這個基金會我們知道我們想要問的部長不好意思打斷您我們想要問的是明明是文化台灣基金會結果為什麼來函回覆我們都是在講台灣文化基金會到底是文化部忘記了還是害怕想起來"},{"start":541.543,"end":561.022,"text":"我們立法委員所知竟然公然回復錯誤的資訊文化部的官員有沒有需要對此負責我們真的是不想要把這種什麼什麼黑箱啦什麼國會調查權去套在這件事情上那這個這是什麼樣你能不能回應一下這有沒有人需要負正式責任呢這個看起來是我們的錯誤啦就是在回話中"},{"start":562.272,"end":583.789,"text":"連這個都寫錯公文寫錯我承認這個錯誤文還真的不是只是一個單一事件我們發現我們問了說標案金額多少何時何地開標為什麼是這個廠商得標結果越問越令人害怕文化部竟然沒有辦法清楚回答任何一個問題整個開發流程充滿令人毛骨悚然的感受"},{"start":584.77,"end":599.165,"text":"根據文化部教育司的回覆,這個主事決案因為採購金額未超過公告金額150萬是由文化臺灣基金會自行尋找兩家廠商比價事情又很剛好兩家廠商一家報價148萬500元另外一家139萬9千元最後價低者得標"},{"start":605.111,"end":629.307,"text":"到目前為止跟部長報告文化部都不願意告知此案發包的金額多少我們只能合理懷疑這個其實到最後發包金額的這個標案就是149萬剛好躲過政府採購法規定的150萬的公告金額整個網站就查不到這個設計案的資訊請教部長您認同這樣的做法嗎低於採150萬的公告金額整個案子就可以在檯面下進行嗎請次長講一下因為平常你講我搞不懂這個"},{"start":636.557,"end":640.319,"text":"文化部本身是以身作則的。你們低於150萬的,你們也公開透明。"},{"start":655.111,"end":671.69,"text":"但是呢,3500萬的文化基金會錢過去了他們就可以低於150萬就不用公開我們也很想知道啊那150萬我可不可以拆成10個拆成20個那通通都不用公開啦先在此請教部長可不可以要求受文化部補助捐助的財團法人必須落實政府資訊公開的責任"},{"start":675.774,"end":689.948,"text":"比照文化部將每一筆標案列表公布於網站上您預計多久可以完成有沒有機會我們市長是這個董事長基金會董事長師長也是這個基金會的董事喔您預計多久可以完成這部分的討論"},{"start":691.872,"end":719.079,"text":"我們先按照那個財專法人的規定辦理好 謝謝這個希望能夠有回覆主席對不起我再借一個時間因為這個7月多就要去法國巴黎展現在已經6月初了我們還是要趕快來搞清楚不然的話也不希望這個展出不順利都希望順順利利這一次最後關於本案的處置文化部提供說設計師主動表達修改主事節的意願而且還強調不加收任何費用"},{"start":719.719,"end":732.351,"text":"我先講我自己以前在設計學院教書我看到這個案子破譯破譯的專案包裝門面只花一百萬百分之一的預算我已經替這個設計師覺得很難過替設計界覺得很難過結果現在出了問題設計師要修改還不加價不給錢或者他還要這樣不知道到底是他怎麼樣就是說不用修改修改不用錢"},{"start":743.702,"end":769.664,"text":"對此我要表達文化部應該作為表率帶頭表達對於創意的尊重如果有民眾表示疑慮文化部應該要主動釐清整個創作過程只要文化部可以證實此案是原創設計設計師完全不需要修改主視覺設計我們要挺他但是相反的假如本案經證實可能涉及過度參考或抄襲那也絕非設計師主動修改設計就可以解決我們記者會也發了新聞稿也發了"},{"start":772.207,"end":785.546,"text":"國際的發表也發了各種破文也po了事關國際的聲譽我們就要採取補救的措施我們到底要跟廠商續約還是解約也要追究啊或者我建議文化部直接去函跟蘋果公司的法務部門確認這個案子到底要不要經過授權"},{"start":788.51,"end":805.346,"text":"他如果說可以我們就來用啊我們質詢的重點絕對不是凹設計師針對主視覺要去做免費的修改我是反對這件事有工作就要付錢我們追求大是大非要求釐清事件的真相我上次跟部長有分享過"},{"start":806.647,"end":829.983,"text":"我看了這個潮浪群雄小莊的這個漫畫提到明記當年就是非常支持年輕人非常支持原創我們要保護跟扶植創作者這個案子破了一億百分之一來做包裝跟設計結果還出了這麼大的問題我們絕對不能承受半點風險我們只剩下一個多月的時間希望部長在此案的後續處理一定要明快"},{"start":830.603,"end":838.435,"text":"才能透過巴黎奧運的機會讓全世界看到最好的臺灣好不好再次謝謝部長我們一起為臺灣提升能見度做努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153702","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d58104fbe90a2e0e5979f99d17e212a4188282b1d5b897dd1c904b1091563e2b0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:22:54 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有請彭部長"},{"start":14.445,"end":41.578,"text":"王委員好部長好很高興今天又能夠在這個地方跟您切磋一些有關於環保的事情這次我很高興有機會去參加世界衛生會相關的會議擔任世導團的一部分其他的包括江副院長一起去日內瓦做世導"},{"start":42.678,"end":64.553,"text":"其實也得到蠻多的啟發所以想要再利用這個機會詢問一下部長相關的一些想法或者是未來我們可以努力的方向那這次其實很高興有機會同時去參加或者去洛杉磯管理學院參訪了有關相關國家競爭力的年度報告"},{"start":65.573,"end":83.81,"text":"的一些得到的資訊他們預計在6月18號就要公布今年年度的報告的成果那我們也很高興在2023年IMD的世界競爭力全球是第6名當然我們很期待他今年會有更好的成績出來"},{"start":84.831,"end":107.597,"text":"在這個很高興大家共同努力得到這樣的成果的同時其實拜總統在今年的5月20日的就職演說裡面也提到有關於我們必須要發展創新驅動的經濟模式透過數位轉型以及淨零轉型的雙軸力量來協助中小企業升級轉型"},{"start":108.877,"end":133.131,"text":"不過我們看到的就是在IMD的排名的部分我們有一些擔心的地方包括說雖然我們的這個永續貿易指數總排名是第10名可是呢在於經濟社會還有環境面的部分在一共70個指標裡面有關於環境項目我們排的是第27名"},{"start":136.073,"end":157.25,"text":"當然部長是新任的,其實歷任的部長也都非常非常的用心在改善相關的這些指標或者是整體的環境。那部長依照您對於這個IMD在最後面的相關的競爭力的部分,您有沒有信心明年可以更好?"},{"start":158.472,"end":176.897,"text":"關於這個其實有很多的國際組織都會排名那我也曾經是國際的組織的排名的審查委員過那當然這個我比較相信這個IMD的確他的水準是很高的那我們現在的資料來看的話因為他拿的是比較舊的那我們當時也沒有相關英文的資料所以我們現在"},{"start":177.957,"end":194.023,"text":"把英文畫之後讓他們可以直接每年都會抓到我們資料之後我們在今年的排名應該會往前提升所以請委員放心但是我們還有很多要努力的地方啦包含我們的碳的人均的排碳量等等齁這個我們要努力啦"},{"start":194.583,"end":219.086,"text":"是,因為下一章告訴我們說表現相對不是那麼滿意的部分包括像森林砍伐當然不是全部都是環境部的問題而是相關於整個國內如何能夠提升環境保護的部分包括森林砍伐也希望能夠有更精進另外就是環境貿易標準、碳、再生能源等等"},{"start":219.787,"end":234.662,"text":"那剛剛提到比較期待的就是針對協助中小企業升級轉型的部分其中有關的就是淨零轉型的努力不知道部長目前有沒有瞭解哪一些的企業"},{"start":235.963,"end":255.152,"text":"做的事相對是比較好可以當作我們點上目標準的企業不管是在智慧轉型競能轉型還有他們帶動的這個經濟模式的部分可不可以有相關的企業可以讓我們國內其他企業可以作為標竿學習的這些案件可以讓我們了解"},{"start":255.792,"end":276.539,"text":"報告委員其實臺灣的科技業因為它的貿易對外所以臺灣的科技業在減碳的或是永續的各種指標都做得非常的好那我知道我們經濟部也有這種以大帶小的整個供應鏈在做所以他們正在補充還是我們請我們署長來跟委員說明一下我舉一個例子就是最近那個"},{"start":277.859,"end":297.776,"text":"對喔,我們有集合國內電子五哥跟他們一起合作總共有差不多有200多家的供應鏈一起跟他們合作那這樣就是以大大小會垂直下來那以後對我們國際在探足機是有相當大的幫助那這樣以大大小它的成效才會大所以目前我們正在推展這一部分的一個計畫"},{"start":298.997,"end":318.585,"text":"是 謝謝因為我這次同時也去參訪了世界貿易組織他是我們台灣唯一參加的一個算是國際型的組織他們也很期待把這些概念帶進來以後可以去國際貿易組織去做相關的一些表達讓我們去引領如果未來針對於這種"},{"start":320.646,"end":321.326,"text":"臺灣是蘋果很重要的供應鏈所以他們很積極"},{"start":348.88,"end":365.432,"text":"所以我們的確是希望能夠公司協力跟國外一起來合作來把這個指數可以提高好謝謝謝謝這一部分的這個回應那再過來剛剛很多委員也有提到醫療廢棄物的處理的部分希望不會迴復循環的永續"},{"start":367.172,"end":382.457,"text":"其實我們也了解如果環境部要推動零廢棄的話即使醫療機構它產出的廢棄物相較於其他的製造業跟電力供應業相對是比較低只佔了不到1%"},{"start":383.817,"end":413.424,"text":"可是我們看到比較擔心的就是醫療廢棄物的再利用率相對是偏低的我們下一張發生片可以看到的就是其他的這個總事業或者是經濟部的事業的這些再利用率即使是一般的事業廢棄物的再利用率都可以高到八九十個percent可是很可惜的就是衛福部的目的事業即使是一般事業廢棄物也只不到十個percent"},{"start":414.564,"end":424.828,"text":"剛剛部長也有說會跟邱部長共同來討論如何能夠有效的提升這方面的債利用率其實在5月的時候也針對這個問題請教了前任的薛部長"},{"start":428.809,"end":452.065,"text":"那薛部長也有回應說會持續的與衛福部合作來研議相關的這個工具那也很希望部長你能夠持續的關注這個問題希望能夠近期就有機會把相關這個研議的成果可以讓我們來了解也可以持續的來注意這個未來的這個可以改善的地方"},{"start":453.285,"end":469.991,"text":"因為醫療注重的是安全跟廢棄物的回收概念不一樣所以這個部分我們要突破我會跟衛福部討論至少是一般的廢棄物不是說有關生物醫療廢棄物這兩個部分還是要有效的分開"},{"start":475.473,"end":499.902,"text":"再過來非常謝謝部長一開始就提出一個大家很有感的這個燕地減量推動臺灣新文化運動有關於這個對於這個燕地部分造成的這個影響那您提出的這個有六大策略21加N的措施這個N加得非常好"},{"start":500.982,"end":526.588,"text":"請教部長這個恩會包括哪一些的可能有感的內容因為我們昨天有大概有包括了北一女的同學還有兩位都是年輕的朋友來那我是希望不要我們政府來定啦民間比我們政府有創意啦開放增建啦那個恩就是開放民眾來參與好的創意我們就來好的話可以實行的話我們就來用那個恩的意思就是無限大"},{"start":527.028,"end":552.544,"text":"我要從民間來啦不要政府定啦我們政府定的例如說我們取締大家一定很不高興啊我們政府想辦法如何取締大概這個效果也很有限但是我們如果從這個民間的創意來改變這個文化這個會更快啦是想見這個彭部長的數學一定非常好可以把N用到這樣的地方來那請問一下未來我們在多短的時間裡面就有可能看到N的成果"},{"start":553.891,"end":577.342,"text":"我們預計是11月才會決選出來我最近近期應該會到各個縣市找委員或是縣市所長一起來撿菸蒂所以這件事情我們一定會先來做因為各位都是知名人士然後來倡議這個會很有感因為我們現在全台灣的煙灰缸就是在水溝所以我們要趕快改變一下這個習慣"},{"start":578.322,"end":579.003,"text":"希望行動的時候也讓我知道一下"},{"start":596.284,"end":618.914,"text":"最後再提醒有關於登革熱房子的環境的清理的部分我們知道上一次我請教薛部長的時候向經費的使用預算也已經到了一個步我們希望如果說需要透過滾動式的管理的話可以讓經費的部分再適度的去幫助地方"},{"start":619.454,"end":619.935,"text":"謝謝王正旭委員"}]}},{"id":"153701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d586fdb275391ddc7bf3bd234b5abfe8c98282b1d5b897dd1cb72eae049c66d9735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:23:30 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王委員好部長早作為一個國防部長在這個時候其實最重要是明年度的國防預算大概六七八月你們要進行相關的編審那九月份就會送進我們立法院那你又是近年來首位的文人部長所以本期今天第一個比較大的題目是要請教"},{"start":33.345,"end":55.147,"text":"目前在你心中的計畫明年度我們的國防預算是否會增加或者顯著增加因為之前蔡英文總統的任內你是國防會秘書長在前4年當時蔡總統有承諾每一年以佔國防預算至少2%的幅度往上成長所以本席這邊"},{"start":56.728,"end":69.277,"text":"統計一個表單純看這個預算數國防預算近10年來特別從2018年預算數是逐年顯著增加"},{"start":70.489,"end":79.434,"text":"如果你拿2015年的預算數那個是根據2014年的GDP到2024年的預算數那是根據2023年的GDP在預算數我講的是金額大概成長了38.9%你把4,345億去除3,127億不含特別預算"},{"start":100.168,"end":109.234,"text":"那以這一個我們國內生產毛額來看就是我們的總體經濟來看從2015年反映出的20142024年反映出的2023我們的GDP成長是46%"},{"start":117.139,"end":138.872,"text":"所以用這樣來對照我們的金額是有成長但是還沒有完全跟我們的GDP成長去完全去吻合當然這有很多因素社會福利各項的支出那如果單純看佔GDP比率這個大概是各盟友主要在看的說歐洲的國防預算有沒有達到2%台灣的國防預算有沒有到2.53大概是看這一塊這一塊"},{"start":144.815,"end":162.689,"text":"如果單純看我們的預算數平常心講雖然我們金額成長了百分之三十多三成以上但我們的GDP佔比看起來其實是沒有明顯的成長但是這漏掉一個數據所以本席特別把馬政府因為沒有特別預算"},{"start":163.47,"end":186.608,"text":"那在蔡英文政府因為國防採購跨年度先進戰機或者是提高防衛力量的需求我們分別在2020年跟2022年有兩次的特別預算涵蓋年度我都寫在後面的特別預算你把那個金額平均加進去我先提醒平均未必正確因為他有說前面比較少後面比較多"},{"start":187.268,"end":214.864,"text":"你把平均加進去的話也確實蔡英文政府的國防預算呢相較於以往是有明顯的增加但是大概這兩年到2.09、2.08左右我把這個基礎數字跟部長做了分析之後我的問題是請問部長你接下來6、7、8、9月大概就要準備編這個預算了會不會增加相較以往金額跟佔比會不會增加"},{"start":215.575,"end":231.21,"text":"跟委員報告,就我的理解,明後年的軍頭好像是在支付的高峰期,我們的作業維持會也不斷的增加,所以我當然"},{"start":232.951,"end":259.313,"text":"我們會務實的來檢討這個依照這個防衛專案需求來務實檢討不過我當然希望我們的額度呢這個配付的額度能夠持續穩定的成長那這個部分還需要跟主計長要好好的溝通你如果說說我陪你們去為主計長我也是樂見但我現在提的事情說他有兩個數據顯示出其實盟友常常問我們說我們"},{"start":260.814,"end":280.026,"text":"保護自己國家的決心大概不管是預期還有預算大概常問的是這兩件事情那在預算的話有兩個數字一個是金額的總數那這牽涉到我們總體經濟概況如果經濟萎縮金額的總數一定會往下掉另外一個就是占比"},{"start":284.028,"end":300.279,"text":"暫比跟我們的年度國防預算合併計算的話我們現在大概已經超過歐盟的標準我們這2%以上了但是有人會不把特別預算納進去算但是還是合併計算比較妥當所以我還是期待顧立雄部長這一邊"},{"start":301.88,"end":323.556,"text":"在明年我們的國防預算的展現上因為美國他用總統的PDA他用他們的FMF當然也回過頭他們在審議的時候也說那臺灣自己的決心在哪裡部長這邊你心裡的盤算你當然希望越多越好了但世間不好的事我是說你明年的國防預算按照這個數據上來看會不會持續往上走"},{"start":327.692,"end":353.8,"text":"就我的理解應該會持續往上走只是增加的幅度到底有多大持續往上走就是一個趨勢嘛對對但是我過去我過去在國安會前也常常說到對啦委員講的沒有錯就是說我們展現自我防衛的決心有時候不是單靠國防預算的量化但是國防預算的量化的這個確實是他們"},{"start":356.82,"end":356.98,"text":"國防部長"},{"start":376.926,"end":377.006,"text":"第2個題目"},{"start":390.933,"end":416.574,"text":"最近不管是美國的外委會主席來或之前的蓋拉格來我大概跟他們談的都這三件事情在背景是2023年美國的NDAA也就是他們的財政年度國防授權法案特別把一個美國的叫做這個TERA叫做"},{"start":420.701,"end":435.515,"text":"臺灣強韌法,把他的精神納進去,那這個臺灣Enhance Resilience Act這個叫TERRA,他把他納進去之後呢那這邊就有三個面向,可能我要詢問來自於國安會的國防部長"},{"start":436.015,"end":463.888,"text":"第一個根據2023年TERRA的5507條裡面有載明外國軍售計畫下要加速對台軍售那這個我有看到寫在您今天的報告書的第10頁很好那有沒有具體的做法就是說他加速既有已經答應軍售給我們加趕快提早交付給我們以及未來軍售案的能夠提高速度這是第一件事情"},{"start":464.528,"end":488.787,"text":"第2個在2023年的NDA裡面的TERRA相關的條款對照起來5510條裡面這點就跟最近大家談的很重要美國這個條例是要求把美國的智慧產產權移轉到台灣等於尋找合作廠商來協助台灣在台生產潛在的合作商員來合作"},{"start":489.728,"end":508.051,"text":"這個是根據這個TERRA510條那我們一直在爭取跟美國簽署這個RDPRDP就是互惠國防採購協定供應安全安排SOSA這兩個合併起來講就是讓美國跟台灣"},{"start":508.852,"end":523.142,"text":"合作在台灣生產先進的裝備那我綜合起來請你一併回答也就是說這個好處是第一個台灣能夠國防自主那也能夠因應未來的可能性的封鎖"},{"start":524.743,"end":544.034,"text":"提升臺灣國防工業及技術能力臺灣可以藉由不管是RDP或者SOSA能夠進入美方跟他盟友的供應鏈這對臺灣的工業界來講是一個很大的利多所以以上這一個部分是不是請部長綜合回答"},{"start":545.123,"end":566.798,"text":"是那個第一個快速對台軍售就我的理解就是已經成立一個叫做Tiger TeamTiger Team 2.0那一段時間了對那就這個部分他結合應該是國會國防部跟國務院那這個Tiger Team的加速對台軍售那具體的哪一些部分他把我們的交運的這個"},{"start":567.619,"end":567.879,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":586.434,"end":607.286,"text":"那另外這個共同的就是所謂的co-production在這個部分我想這個部分我們一直積極的在爭取因為我們是一個海島的國家那暫時的時候我們必須要維持一定的這個產業的國防工業的概念這兩年有沒有辦法簽 有沒有可能"},{"start":613.311,"end":622.156,"text":"我們在近期爭取,近期可能會有一些結果,再跟委員報告,我想可能在私下再跟委員報告。"}]}},{"id":"153700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d50252e93d41695413b42b94709b0a08048282b1d5b897dd1c31724058523239b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:24:07 - 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.03096875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.032843750000001,"end":16.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16.180343750000002,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.65596875,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.909093750000004,"end":51.398468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.97221875,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.25471875000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.96721875,"end":84.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.86159375000001,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.92846875000001,"end":88.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.50221875000001,"end":89.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.55284375000001,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":97.78784375000001,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.13346875,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":110.46096875,"end":116.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.02534375,"end":125.73284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":126.10409375,"end":129.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.32284375,"end":131.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.35659375,"end":130.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.39034375,"end":131.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.90909375,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.02721875,"end":157.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":158.38596875000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.02659375000002,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":190.97159375,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.81534375,"end":192.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.96721875,"end":192.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.08534375000002,"end":192.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.18659375000001,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":232.97346875000002,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.76034375,"end":247.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.36784375000002,"end":253.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":247.90784375,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.75971875000002,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":253.89846875,"end":277.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.16909375,"end":294.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":294.56721875,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.26159375000003,"end":309.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":309.21471875000003,"end":311.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.87159375000005,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":318.90096875,"end":319.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":319.77846875,"end":328.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.46471875000003,"end":338.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":339.28596875,"end":344.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":344.77034375,"end":357.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":358.33784375000005,"end":359.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.43034375,"end":367.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.52596875,"end":400.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.37346875000003,"end":400.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":400.39034375,"end":406.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.75221875000005,"end":407.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":407.15721875,"end":408.96284375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.738,"end":8.591,"text":"謝謝主席,有請交通部陳次長、公路局陳局長陳次長、公路局陳局長"},{"start":15.346,"end":41.34,"text":"委員好市長早安好我想本席在0403大地震過後就有提醒當時我們的王前部長我們要全面的巡檢全台的一個變波不用只尋這個花蓮的那最近因為好大雨那包含南投、嘉義還有最近的基隆都發生穩定的變波有攤方的意外那我們當然不能夠完全否認跟地震有關係所以請教市長"},{"start":42.18,"end":60.488,"text":"究竟我們在所謂這個天候因素之下,包含強震、好雨過後的一個邊坡巡檢的SOP,我們到底是怎麼來進行?請說明一下。我想各個單位,比如交通部各個單位,它都會有剛才大家一再提到的邊坡分級的一個管理。"},{"start":60.728,"end":61.569,"text":"市長,那我們整個這樣巡檢完全台的邊坡預計要花多久的時間?"},{"start":89.849,"end":95.483,"text":"呃原則上我們現在是針對這個稀奇以上的邊坡我們希望能夠在一個月裡頭把它做一個總體檢"},{"start":97.847,"end":123.24,"text":"那在做分類的一個重新調整．對,稀集邊坡做完了以後呢．它自然而然就會．分級會有一些調整．而且原則上是調整．就是應該是增加提高．這個很重要．因為這一次我們發現基隆灘方的路段．也是被評估一個穩定的一個路段．而且並沒有設置所謂一個監測的一個系統．但是我們有裝設一個防護防．那針對這個裝設監測系統跟．"},{"start":126.221,"end":148.029,"text":"防護網的這個作為我們是怎麼樣做來做評估?可以請教說明一下嗎?原則上這個有關這個岩栓或掛網噴漿這種這種大概是邊坡上人力可及而且是相關的這個可以做處理的他會是這種方式來做邊坡的一個保護跟防護"},{"start":148.729,"end":175.194,"text":"那如果說是人力無法集的或是機械無法處理的他才會有剛才特別提到落實告警的這樣的一個系統是另外本期這邊還是要反映一件事情就是我們最近有霧台我們屏東霧台鄉的鄉親反映說他們有看到我們台二四線32K就是我們所謂的谷川大橋那個附近一個監測系統一次被落實砸到那目前"},{"start":176.294,"end":176.594,"text":"徐富癸徐富癸"},{"start":193.062,"end":214.839,"text":"預警系統基本上就因為如果說落實就是說它的來源還有就是說邊坡能夠整治的部分其實我們就是先把這個落實的來源跟邊坡整治把它做好那如果說它的來源太高或者是有一些落實其實是沒辦法判斷它的一個來源的話我們就會做落實告警系統像這一次的這個4月3號地震之後我們的落實告警系統還會再增加兩座那"},{"start":215.72,"end":232.599,"text":"委員所提到的這一處的話我們會去再做一個評估那如果說是他的落實的來源是我們沒辦法去預期的如果來源就是說哪些的地方可以去處理的話我們一定是優先去把他的這個落實來源處理掉不行我們就會加做這個那個落實告警系統"},{"start":233.76,"end":253.291,"text":"本席知道我們局長對於屏東的地形相當的瞭解那尤其是我們針對整個邊坡的一個整治我們也花了很多的心力但是這一點我們還是要提醒一下這個我們的那個整個監控系統的部分瞭解瞭解去看一下對對對如果原來的系統已經不work了我們來做看怎麼樣來做處理"},{"start":254.331,"end":276.895,"text":"另外本期還要再提醒一下因為我們屏東縣我們的山區很遼闊那以往我們有設置一個民隧道那我們也發現這個民隧道發揮了很大的一個作用尤其遇到大規模的一個土石崩落的時候那針對屏東縣的部分交通部這邊是不是有在盤點其他設置民隧道的部分能夠來減少土石滑落的一個危害性"},{"start":277.996,"end":305.337,"text":"對,這也是我們山坡道路管理上一個很重要的假設是可以用這個明隧道的方式來做處理我們就會來偵測這個明隧道那委員這裡也有提到鋼構的這個明隧道這也是我們近期大量在採用的本起來是要求我們交通部要趕快盡快盤點然後盡快的設置並這個天候的因素隨時發生什麼變化都不曉得我們要加快這個工程的一個進度"},{"start":306.334,"end":327.415,"text":"是是這個我們會來加速來處理另外我再請一下運輸安全調查委員主委我想最近大家也在關心我們這個美國這個波音的這個安全性的疑慮那我們運輸安全調查有沒有掌握相關的一個資訊"},{"start":329.542,"end":356.916,"text":"我們有在注意但是目前為止是屬於目的事主管機關美昌局有跟我們在聯繫他也有收集一些資料這個我們還是要提醒一下委員會我們不能只有在台灣等待這個別人做的調查報告我們也應該要掌握相關的一個進度畢竟這個現在很多國人都會出國但也對於所謂的飛機飛安的一個安全的考量也相當的一個重視我們是不是可以加快這個時程"},{"start":358.396,"end":366.744,"text":"掌握這個進度一下。我是請航空組組長來,因為他是機師出身,他比較有情來。"},{"start":369.868,"end":395.954,"text":"跟委員報告您提的議題就是我們有沒有做調查實際上我們有跟民航局在聯繫因為這個飛機在國內的法規裡面是試航的所以我們會高度的關心那另外呢最近對於報災的一些關於777有一些所謂的進電釋放的問題我們也持續的關心那我們也跟航空公司大概有聯繫目前他們做了訂件以外"},{"start":397.557,"end":404.192,"text":"這個問題並沒有產生特別的非案疑慮以上報告對但是還是請我們要掌握一下相關的訊息畢竟這個是國人很重視的一個議題是好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5114a54f1b72b1a8ab42b94709b0a08048282b1d5b897dd1c2c23e8c81565850e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:16:21 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.835968750000001,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.84284375,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.26034375,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.188468750000002,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.31909375,"end":20.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.922218750000003,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.12846875,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.127218750000004,"end":38.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.92784375,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.104093750000004,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.11596875,"end":69.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.99471875,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.69846875,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.59971875000001,"end":89.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.23221875,"end":90.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.63284375,"end":91.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.44284375000001,"end":94.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.35784375,"end":96.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.04534375,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.87596875000001,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.90971875000001,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.45784375000001,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.56284375000001,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.96659375,"end":114.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.98346875,"end":119.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.74221875,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.75909375,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.97846875,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.75096875,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.56096875,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.59034375000002,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.45096875000002,"end":170.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.86909375000002,"end":180.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.47534375,"end":184.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.68971875000003,"end":203.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.97784375,"end":238.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.99784375000002,"end":244.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.93346875,"end":248.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.38034375,"end":252.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.19034375,"end":249.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.97034375,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.89284375,"end":265.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.71096875,"end":274.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.09784375000004,"end":312.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.57284375,"end":315.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.08284375,"end":317.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.63534375,"end":325.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.31346875,"end":346.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.74846875000003,"end":368.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.32784375,"end":370.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.37846875,"end":369.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.16284375000004,"end":380.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.32596875,"end":398.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.44971875000005,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.96846875,"end":407.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.57909375,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.03221875,"end":424.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.47096875000005,"end":424.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.48346875000004,"end":439.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.81034375,"end":440.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.26596875,"end":441.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.97034375000004,"end":442.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.79721875,"end":443.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.16846875000005,"end":443.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.64096875,"end":446.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.47596875000005,"end":447.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.77534375000005,"end":449.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.19284375,"end":451.33596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.885,"end":22.591,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請運輸安全調查委員林主委林主委請主委好主委這個你有來自台中關心一件事情"},{"start":24.178,"end":45.314,"text":"去年5月的時候臺中的發生捷運事故那目前已經超過一年了那4月22號今年4月22號的時候運輸安會來備詢的時候提到說這個5月底的話終結事故的調查報告會出爐那現在已經6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次長謝謝那我們再看下一頁其實我們要問一個數據"},{"start":316.201,"end":338.797,"text":"我想這個目前公路局提供了相關的公路邊坡的這個問題大概有全台灣有1700多處這個有被列管了這麼多那當初這個新部長上來之後要求一個月內要檢測完那到底第一個問題是說邊坡的分級你們要怎麼分的那第二個是被劃設為C級邊坡他是依靠直批跟外觀來判定有危險嗎"},{"start":339.437,"end":346.363,"text":"他用什麼方式來檢測是靠科技還是靠人力就是到底這個你檢測的標準跟定義的標準是什麼"},{"start":350.095,"end":369.747,"text":"報告一下我剛才有稍微講過他有定性的一個描述跟定量的一個評分來區分這個所謂的這個ABCD級的邊坡甚至還剛才大家有討論到所謂的關注的一個邊坡是用這樣的方式所以他是科學化的而不是說今天數量"},{"start":371.429,"end":395.938,"text":"數量這麼多那你剛剛提到的不管是用科技的方式你剛剛去定去測的方式我有沒有辦法在一個月內把這1700多處都測完我們原則上是就在這裡的C級邊坡603處來做一些總體檢做一些檢查那依照以往總體檢的一個結果大概就會做一些原則上會做一些升級啦就是說也會發現到一些問題然後把這個C級往B級的邊坡來做"},{"start":399.38,"end":424.078,"text":"另外一個問題就是民眾也擔心一件事情就是因為過去這是過去訂出來的標準那這今年當然今年特別好像地震比較多一點那再加上這一次基隆崩塌地點的旁邊兩公里之前也發生過類似的事11年前也發生過這個山崩所以在定義的時候還有在這個列管的方向上面會不會因為地震改變了我們的地形地勢之後會有影響"},{"start":425.703,"end":450.258,"text":"我想這個地震也好或是豪雨也好或是颱風也好這種比較特殊的這個天候的影響或是氣象的影響都會改變我們這個邊坡的一個分級我們都會回饋回來做一些調整會所以這個數據到時候再調整嗎會會調整會會就是這7月份的報告裡面它的數字就不會跟現在一樣會會一定會會做一些調整好謝謝市長謝謝主委"}]}},{"id":"153698","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153698","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b1cd9f6dbc90cb2c2248f66a23a11b538282b1d5b897dd1cc58aa13344394d615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:17:04 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10:28:17","影片長度":"00:11:13","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:17:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:28:17+08:00","duration":673,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時17分）謝謝召委，我可不可以邀請楊總裁？"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁早安。歷任幾位總裁，包括彭總裁，都很關注臺灣的房價，我想你應該也很關注臺灣的房價。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：國內的四大房價指數，無論是政大永慶、信義房價的歷年走勢圖，你看到我的圖表，包括清華安富，還有內政部住宅價格，從這四大房價指數都可以看得出來，最近這幾年其實房價都創下歷史新高。那總裁評估，現在房價是到天花板了嗎？你看這個房價，你會認為它現在已經是到天花板了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上我不敢隨便在這邊做揣測或預測，基本上我也同意，就是我們的房價是在……我也給委員一個數據，在去年第3季，我們的房價指數，年增率是持續下來……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，總裁，你的數據我大概清楚，為什麼我這麼問？第一個，我問現在到底是不是它的天花板，那你也不敢保證。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：其實因為房價會走揚，有很多不同的外在因素，絕對不是只有一個因素而已。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：包括現在總體的經濟，股市也很好，所以房價是不是也有可能被推升，它會不會是原因之一，也有可能嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對……"],["李委員彥秀：大家錢很多，股市看起來很好……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：它也有可能造成房價的推升。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是從2020年開始，央行祭出五波的信用管制措施、調控房價的方法和方式。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：看起來，已經進行了五波，但是房價仍然就是一年攀得比一年高。包括央行經研處的處長之前也分析，房市景氣確實比上半年更熱絡，主要的原因有三個，一個是我們現在出口的景氣明顯回升；第二個是我們現在股市非常好，創造出大家賺了錢、有財富的結果；第三個就是現在財政部推出的新青安政策，給青年人住屋低利貸款的政策。總裁，你同意這三個理由是造成我們房價往上走的原因嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我在想，他是說最近的因素，基本上應該是……我覺得也蠻合理的，他這種說法。"],["李委員彥秀：但是總裁，財政部……我們拼命在打房，我們希望用調控政策讓房價不要漲，但是你們經研處處長說新青安政策把房價推高，你支持嗎？就是我們現在給青年的好的優惠利率，讓青年人第一次買房可以有優惠，然後造成我們現在房價往上走，你贊成、你支持這個是理由之一嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我在想，新青安是健全房市的其中一個政策，就是要照顧沒有房……"],["李委員彥秀：沒有房的年輕人。"],["楊總裁金龍：年輕人，對，不過我跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：但你認為這個也是造成房價往上走的原因嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：但是假設，我現在也沒有就是說……我現在假設它也是其中……因為需求高了以後，市場氛圍就整個從本來是要下來的，那現在就變成上來的話，那我們做這樣的敘述，我們也不能說因為它是政府的政策，你就不能說是因為這個因素，我覺得也不能……我們這也是在做一個檢討。基本上如果新青安對我們的……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，總裁，因為我的時間有限，就是說房價會升、會一直往上走，其實還有很多不同的因素。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：我也曾經聽過不動產公會說，你不斷地升我的利息，還加上現在的五缺，缺工，缺人等什麼都缺，羊毛出在羊身，它的成本就是這麼高，所以它必須是這麼高，其實也是業界不同的聲音。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：我要請問，現在打房抑制房價仍舊是央行的政策之一嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也要再做一個說明，基本上，委員說我們關心房價，當然我們關心房價，但是我跟委員報告，央行關心的是房價之後會不會造成泡沫、影響到我們的金融穩定，這個才是中央銀行最主要要關注的。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝總裁，我聽到了。好，所以關心房價的手段，過去你們有做出很多手段，那我想請問升息會不會是你的工具手段之一？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上我們一直認為，升息針對的是我們的通膨，不過如果對付了通膨以後，那升息對房價、對房地產市場也有impact，但我就是說，升息不是我們主要要對付什麼房價的，我們升息主要是對付通膨，而升息對於房地產也會有影響。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝總裁，我今天其實還有另外一個主題要問，你上一次在3月21日無預警地調了半碼……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：為了因應我們可能通膨、升電價後續的通膨。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得現在有沒有達到那個效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：就是效果上，也不是說利率一調升就馬上會有效果，不過我跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：但當時是為了抑制我們的通膨嘛！那你覺得有沒有達到您預期的效果？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛你如果仔細看看，就是我們的CPI、我們的17項民生用品，你最少購買一次的商品的物價，都是慢慢在下來。"],["李委員彥秀：我聽懂你的說明，上次無預警地升息半碼，但是我們看第1季的經濟指數還有現在的CPI，表現得不錯，不過CPI也突破您的防線，連續三年突破您的防線，就是超過2%。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：當時您會不會想說，自己如果當時升息1碼會更好？"],["楊總裁金龍：我不會這麼認為，因為我跟委員報告，利率的作用力不是我馬上下去就會馬上收效的，不是！利率的作用力是在18個月到24個月以後才慢慢累積出來的。"],["李委員彥秀：我們就持續的觀察，總裁，我聽懂了！我昨天關注到經濟部部長在委員會有提到，接下來能源政策重大的改變就是用電政策重大改變，能源政策接下來會增加企業的成本，未來我們不再做補貼，包括儘量穩住民生和小商家的電價，要多調整用電大戶，我的重點是在用電大戶這件事情，這是整個用電的政策和能源政策很大的調整。總裁，你有沒有聽到，這是一個很大的變革，你有沒有參與相關的會議？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：都沒有？總裁，未來如果經濟部等各部會的補貼就回到各部會，不再用歲計賸餘去補貼，用電大戶要大幅調整，你個人認為這對於經濟波動會不會有影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得使用者付費，這是一般原則。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道你支持，但是用電大戶未來要大幅調漲電價，你認為對於我們整體企業和經濟會不會有影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員問到會不會有影響，這大概是要做研究（study），我也沒辦法告訴你會或是不會。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，你太保守了！那個study的趨勢一定是有影響，只是多跟少而已，你同不同意我的說法？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！大和小，它的方式……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，謝謝你的回應，我今天本來很想好好問你這個問題，我就不占用後面委員的時間，我只是非常訝異，這麼大的能源政策、用電政策，行政部會有這麼大幅的調整，今天經濟部次長在現場，居然沒有財政部、央行的角色，跨部會協調在裡面，我不知道這個政策是不是已經非常成熟，而且確定往這個方向走？因為昨天在經濟委員會郭部長的回應是未來能源政策要朝向這個方向，所以工業用電會大幅增加成本，我沒有支持或反對，因為這個是行政部會的決定，但是居然沒有財政部和央行的角色在裡面發表你們的意見，就直接在經濟委員會說出來，我覺得這是有點危險，居然沒有您的角色，我覺得是有點危險，所以總裁應該回去反映這樣的意見，我對行政院的政策都表示尊重，因為這是行政決定，但是我覺得一定要有央行和財政部的角色在裡面，這個政策才會是比較完整的，以上是我今天的質詢，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請王鴻薇委員進行質詢。李坤城委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":3.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.99659375,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":11.387843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.40471875,"end":24.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.47096875,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.90096875,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.72784375,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.17909375,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.06784375,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.976593750000006,"end":51.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.815343750000004,"end":61.034093750000004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我不敢隨便在這邊做"},{"start":70.976,"end":71.977,"text":"在去年的第三季我們的房價指數"},{"start":93.748,"end":118.745,"text":"沒關係,總裁你的數據我大概清楚就是說我為什麼這麼問第一個我問說現在到底是不是他的天花板那你也不敢保證其實因為房價會走揚會有很多不同的外債因素在他絕對不是只有一個因素而已那包括現在總體的經濟股市也很好所以房價是不是也有可能被推升他會不會是原因之一"},{"start":119.545,"end":136.283,"text":"有可能嘛 股市大家錢很多股市看起來很好他有可能造成經濟的這個房價的推升喔但是從2020開始我們央行祭出五波的信用管制措施調控房價的方法跟方式看起來"},{"start":137.304,"end":152.113,"text":"而已經進行了五波但是房價仍然就是一年攀的一年比一年高包括我們央行的經驗處的處長之前也分析我們房價的景氣房市的景氣確實比上半年更熱絡主要的原因有三個一個"},{"start":153.254,"end":153.714,"text":"總裁,你同意這三個理由是造成我們房價"},{"start":176.016,"end":203.304,"text":"往上走的原因嗎?我在想他是說最近啦最近的因素啦那基本上呢應該是我覺得也蠻能夠蠻合理的啦他這種說法但是總裁就是說財政部我們拼命在打房我們希望用調控政策讓房價不要漲但是你們今年處處長說新清安政策把這個房價推高"},{"start":204.451,"end":205.612,"text":"新青安市健全房市的一個"},{"start":229.724,"end":246.027,"text":"的一個政策他其中的一個政策因為他這個就是說要照顧那個就是說年輕人沒有財的年輕人對對不過我跟委員報告但是你認為這個也是在市場上走的原因但是呢你如果說假設說"},{"start":247.128,"end":260.778,"text":"假設啦我現在也沒有就是說我現在假設他也是其中就是說因為他需求需求高了以後呢因為市場的氛圍呢就整個從本來是要下來的那現在就變成上來的話"},{"start":262.259,"end":262.399,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":279.648,"end":306.791,"text":"總裁因為我的時間有限就是說房價會升的會一直往上走其實還有很多不同的因素我也曾經聽過不動產公會說你不斷地升我的利息還加上現在的五缺缺工缺人什麼都缺他羊毛出在楊家成本就是這麼高所以他必須是這麼高所以其實這也是業界不同的聲音在所以部長總裁我要請問就是說現在打房抑制房價"},{"start":308.012,"end":308.392,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":328.802,"end":353.788,"text":"關心房價之後會不會造成泡沫影響到我們的經濟穩定這個才是我們專案銀行的最主要關心房價的手段過去你沒有做出很多手段那我想請問升息會不會是你的工具手段之一"},{"start":354.922,"end":364.43,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們一直認為我們認為升息是我們針對的是我們的通膨但是呢,我們如果說對入了通膨以後那這個升息對房價對這個房地產市場他也有impact"},{"start":376.3,"end":392.041,"text":"但是呢我就說升息不是我們主要要對付那個什麼房價的而是我們升息要主要是對付這個房地產的對付通膨的但是呢升息呢對於這個房地產呢他也會有影響"},{"start":394.107,"end":395.97,"text":"總裁,你上次在3月21日無預警調了半碼,為了因應我們可能通膨升電價後續的通膨,你覺得現在有沒有達到那個效果?"},{"start":411.169,"end":420.575,"text":"我跟委員報告,效果也不是說利率你一調升就馬上會有效果,不過我跟委員報告,剛剛你如果說看看仔細看看就是說我們的CPI我們的這個17項的民生用品,你的最少購買一次的商品的物價"},{"start":444.692,"end":466.472,"text":"總裁,我聽懂你的說明,但是上次吳育瑾的升息半碼,現在但是我們看這一第一季的經濟指數還有我們現在的那個CPI表現得不錯,但CPI也通過您的防線,連續三年通過您的防線,就是超過二。當時你會不會想說我如果當時升息一碼會更好?"},{"start":467.313,"end":467.553,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":488.118,"end":502.615,"text":"昨天總裁我昨天關注到經濟部部長在委員會有提到接下來能源政策重大的改變就是用電政策重大的改變能源政策接下來會增加企業的成本也就是未來就是我們不再做補貼"},{"start":503.616,"end":503.776,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":519.425,"end":539.885,"text":"總裁,你有沒有聽到這是一個整個很大的變革你有沒有參與相關的會議沒有總裁你覺得說未來如果整個經濟部就是說未來各部會的補貼就是你們回到各部會不用我們不再用稅基順序去補貼又念大會要大幅的調整你個人認為這個對於經濟整個大波動會不會有影響"},{"start":543.789,"end":562.047,"text":"我覺得使用者互惠這是一般的我知道您支持但是用電大戶未來要大幅的增加就是大幅的調漲電價你認為對於我們的整體的企業跟經濟會不會有影響所以我當然你現在委員現在就說"},{"start":563.628,"end":578.784,"text":"會不會有影響那這個是大概是要做study啦齁要做一個 我也沒辦法 我也沒辦法 我也沒辦法來告訴說 喔會會會不會不會不會那這個是 這是 但是總裁那個study的趨勢一定是"},{"start":579.565,"end":607.743,"text":"有影響只是多跟少而已嘛你同不同意我的說法大跟小然後呢就是說他的一個方式怎麼來方式怎麼進行因為我今天本來是很想好好問你這個問題沒關係我不再用到後面委員的時間我只是非常訝異這麼大的一個能源政策用電的政策行政部會這麼大幅的調整今天經濟部的次長在現場居然沒有我們財政部"},{"start":608.524,"end":609.264,"text":"我沒有支持或反對因為這個是行政部會的決定"},{"start":631.369,"end":638.802,"text":"但是居然沒有財政部跟央行的角色在裡面發表你們的意見就直接在經濟委員會說出來我覺得這是"},{"start":641.141,"end":641.161,"text":"謝謝總裁"},{"start":670.444,"end":672.843,"text":"下一位質詢請王宏威王委員"}]}},{"id":"153697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5f3a178478a47653979f99d17e212a4188282b1d5b897dd1cd5bfc84bced61b305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:12:31 - 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time都有兩、三萬人在那邊，現在就這樣啦！我們來排個考察去小琉球看看。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：真的要住一晚，那個很讚，還可以看綠蠵龜。所以小琉球的垃圾問題，部長你要想想看要如何解決。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不是只有小琉球，還有離島的啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：對，離島。"],["彭部長啓明：我們都要一起來看。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個不解決真的不行啦！跨部會要協調，然後跟各個單位弄，我覺得你今天講的問題非常好！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：但是成效不好，越搞廢棄物越多，所以你要有想法，看要怎麼做，我們會支持你啦！"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：部裡面的預算搞多一點啦！"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：像衛福部這麼多啦！好不好，以上，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：希望委員支持，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言。在這邊作一個宣告：等一下賴惠員委員質詢結束後，休息10分鐘。","現在請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.105968750000001,"end":9.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.45534375,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.25971875,"end":23.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.094718750000002,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.937843750000003,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.772843750000003,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.852843750000005,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.74659375,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.205968750000004,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.84159375,"end":52.664093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.05221875,"end":54.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.92534375,"end":57.743468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.51534375000001,"end":62.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.97471875,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.43784375,"end":82.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.19096875000001,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.34659375000001,"end":92.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.45534375000001,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.92784375000001,"end":93.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.17659375000001,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.23096875,"end":97.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.96909375,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.71096875,"end":105.53346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.30971875,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.81471875000001,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.08409375000001,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.83909375,"end":122.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.71221875,"end":124.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.90596875000001,"end":126.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.50909375,"end":135.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.34721875,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.41409375,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.19846875000002,"end":147.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.46784375000001,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.40846875,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.01971875,"end":158.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.63909375,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.40221875,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.16534375,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.64534375000002,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.83909375000002,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.30721875,"end":184.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.55909375000002,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.49971875,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.99596875,"end":203.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.29971875,"end":197.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.45909375000002,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.52346875,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.19346875000002,"end":235.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.48409375000003,"end":233.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.45409375000003,"end":238.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.55909375000002,"end":238.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.57596875000002,"end":240.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.45346875,"end":239.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.95971875,"end":245.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.83721875,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.81971875000002,"end":246.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.05159375000002,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啊很多很多"},{"start":311.661,"end":336.699,"text":"那衛福部這些專家學者應該沒有能力去弄到這一塊啦講坦白 這個還是你們專門齁所以不要說這個是事業單位他們就要自己去負責不能這樣做 要去農業部 農業廢棄物就農業部去負責 農業部才有能力到最後還是環保部 環境部最大 你最大台灣要 環境要靠你啊是是是"},{"start":338.56,"end":347.687,"text":"小琉球有兩個很嚴重的問題第一個小琉球有在推這個杯子循環杯全台灣用循環杯的才1%而已這個我有data但是小琉球的data多少我不知道"},{"start":366.28,"end":391.392,"text":"所以你們可能要查一下給我資料那小六九這個杯子現在好像八十幾家餐廳有還有賣量的有加入但是我以醫生的角度看這個東西你看用一桶在那邊洗洗一洗清潔劑人工還要晾乾還要烘乾還要消毒"},{"start":393.659,"end":419.881,"text":"這樣還會合嗎?這個推得起來嗎?你們有沒有補助?有補助。沒有啊,那邊自備環保杯買東西就折扣五塊錢啊。然後洗完杯是不是有感染啊、汙染啊。臺北不是有兩三家麥當勞本來用那個後來都收掉了。大家怕啦。真的會怕。這要怎麼改善?"},{"start":420.669,"end":442.528,"text":"其實要鼓勵自己帶啦第一個還是要鼓勵自己帶啦阿這個只是說一個循環的一個方式你沒有辦法帶的話我們盡量用這個因為小琉球那個地方如果我們不這樣做的話垃圾永遠沒辦法減量所以衍生到第三個問題小琉球現在的垃圾部長你覺得他要怎麼做運回來台灣用"},{"start":444.437,"end":454.875,"text":"用茶一個一個吊在家裡再來台灣這有夠誇張的你知道嗎前一陣子根本沒有人要飆啊所以呢"},{"start":456.445,"end":479.43,"text":"對於基如山 我不知道幾十萬棟就很嚴重臭氣沖天然後漏火都水水的來那小琉球本來有一個焚化爐那個焚化爐不能用嗎為什麼不花點錢把它弄好然後垃圾垃圾從小琉球一袋一袋用太空包這樣掉掉到火船上然後帶回來屏東燒砍點燒"},{"start":482.284,"end":499.127,"text":"你可以把那個焚化爐弄好嗎?那些都是你們出錢的嘛。全台的焚化爐也是你們出錢的。對啊。報告委員那個一個焚化爐運作齁要有一個量啦。啊小溜球雖然垃圾很多齁,啊可是如果一個焚化爐運作量又不夠啦。養不起。又養不起啦。這是最大的問題。"},{"start":499.676,"end":517.752,"text":"那你這樣的話,你這個問題是無解的因為他每開飆就沒有人要飆就這次縣政府也強力介入然後把那個環保車就直接開到貨船上,就把它塞塞一小粒球,然後再把它擠進去,然後再塞到船上再載回來,然後再塞到艦艇上你要想一個辦法把它解決啦這樣"},{"start":528.473,"end":530.555,"text":"我們要排個考察來小琉球看看"},{"start":558.075,"end":559.035,"text":"好。好。好。好。好。好。好。好。好。好。好。"},{"start":582.116,"end":582.596,"text":"希望委員支持 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5ca23f7cd2fd03923f3bd234b5abfe8c98282b1d5b897dd1cdc6d513c1fde7d655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:14:42 - 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主席 邀請我們顧部長來 部長請"},{"start":10.748,"end":39.166,"text":"林委員好部長好很開心在這個國防外交委員會又遇到您我在上一屆的時候其實是您在擔任警管會主委的時候那麼我相信文人部長上任就是希望我們國家對於部隊的管理能夠更與時俱進我想其實之前我的詢答都非常緊扣就是有關於我們在國防安全的部分那麼在軍人守密捍衛國家這個部分不要背叛自己的國家但是我們知道其實這個"},{"start":40.327,"end":60.409,"text":"中共又或者是說我們的敵對勢力對於國軍的這個所謂滲透無孔不入那麼是不是現在連國軍的這個金融借貸都變成一個滲透的新方法我們在財政委員會很多委員都會提到的是有關於金融陷阱"},{"start":60.97,"end":63.671,"text":"華南貸款資金規劃還說是上市貸款公司您覺得這個您一眼可以看出他的問題在哪嗎?"},{"start":86.901,"end":87.502,"text":"職業軍人優好貸"},{"start":109.4,"end":136.482,"text":"然後有軍政立刻貸信用小白債務整合信用瑕疵房貸增加包括安心貸這些都是你在網路上現在在社群平台就可以找到的但是本席找到的是2023年就是去年8月的時候一個案例就是彭防部的上校就是因為他付不出這種貸款直接拿軍中的機密來做交換"},{"start":137.483,"end":162.473,"text":"其實他兩年只換得了一百多萬一百零四萬這個金額不多但是他居然把軍中的極機密給洩漏出去所以這會不會是成為一個滲透的新方法而這樣的借款借貸方式他依舊存在主委上任之後有沒有覺得這是一個可以或者是應該要去面對但解決的問題"},{"start":164.167,"end":175.784,"text":"事實上我在國安會任職期間有關於利用金錢借貸或者是利誘的方式來作為生態手法我們就有看到相關的案例了"},{"start":176.933,"end":196.121,"text":"所以其實本席在跟您來拜會的時候我就提過了我希望能夠提升軍中的金融素養其實我知道其實我們有所謂的財務觀也有些金融的講座的規劃但是它常常流於就是照本宣科那很多時候我急著用錢的時候坦白講啦軍中弟兄的勤務已經夠忙了"},{"start":200.864,"end":214.853,"text":"來聽這個課大概就是一個上有政策下有對策所以第一當然我希望這樣的理財的金融素養能夠更活化一點另外一個就是我們有沒有可能提供一個更好的管道我要舉出這個"},{"start":215.774,"end":242.722,"text":"希望部長今天回去可以了解一下就是軍中其實有宣導那在這個所謂開源節流儲蓄裡面有個叫做國軍同袍儲蓄會我不知道部長知不知道如果不知道的話回去我現在希望請能夠給部長一個正確的資訊這個軍中軍人儲蓄會其實在2000年的時候就被監察院糾舉了9年之後也就是2018年監察院也認為說"},{"start":244.743,"end":266.42,"text":"這個完全他的存在是沒有一個合法陣身的主委你應該都知道相關的這種所謂存放款業務都要符合我們銀行法但是在2000年的時候這個所謂存在在軍中的國軍同袍儲蓄會他完全不符合金融法規不符合銀行法結果怎麼樣呢國防部直接就我把這個裡面的法規我把它廢掉"},{"start":269.102,"end":293.388,"text":"他就變成是一個在軍中大家彼此私相授受嗎或者是說他就存在有一個財務官把弟兄的錢收了之後統合整理起來之後拿到台銀去存那我要來提醒部長的是這個2009年被糾正到現在其實國軍同袍除戲會他的法制化還沒有完成"},{"start":294.212,"end":310.455,"text":"那我去特別調了一下資料他是放在內政部的軍人及其家屬優惠條例這個優惠條例在111年也就是2022年有修正過但他依舊沒有給他一個法制化的法規"},{"start":311.636,"end":327.763,"text":"所以我相信一個曾經擔任過金管會主委的部長這是一個你可以來思考要不要讓他法制化另外我提到這一點的原因就在於其實我查了一下國軍同袍除序會他在2024年第一季他的金額有215億新台幣延期20億他法制化之後他可能就可以做一些運用本席去查了幾個國內的基金國內有幾件上市上櫃的基金的規模"},{"start":340.908,"end":362.193,"text":"其實都不高,它是215億,它可以高於不少我們現有的投信公司的基金規模,如果一旦法制化之後,它可以做一些運用跟調度,包括做於緊急的借款,因為現在國軍的儲蓄會,它同袍儲蓄會,它只能存放款,啊不,它不能放款,它只能存款。"},{"start":363.573,"end":373.965,"text":"他連放款的業務都沒有因為他沒有一個法規可以讓他合法陣身來做這件事情本席今天提出這個事情只是希望主委能夠去思考他有215億的規模在裡面"},{"start":378.41,"end":407.006,"text":"如果法制化了剛剛我們前面講到的這些所謂的金融詐騙借貸詐騙的陷阱我們可以避免國軍內部我們都知道有國防管理學院應該裡面有不少金融相關的管理人才也有這樣的素養可以來做協助所以我把這個舉出來希望主委可以把它當成是你任內可以思考的一個方向今天如果軍中弟兄真的覺得一定要用"},{"start":408.247,"end":433.428,"text":"軍人證才能在所謂的這種借貸非銀行的借貸能夠借得快借得好那要不要軍中自己來合法化又或者是說軍中覺得要去制定這一部法令可能曠日廢時那麼至少我們現在看到的國軍同袍除序會他完全沒有法制沒有法規的底下"},{"start":434.451,"end":434.713,"text":"主委你怎麼看?"},{"start":439.403,"end":467.152,"text":"跟委員報告就我現在的理解就是說過去在組織法裡面已經加入了這個組織的組織法裡面那作用法的部分就是好像之前卡在要先要想要訂一個軍人福利條例後來沒有訂那現在最後的是在113年4月29號他們內政部就這個你剛剛提到軍人及其家屬要在條例的部分要喊請本部來重新檢視"},{"start":468.212,"end":481.121,"text":"我現在我下去以後我會盡快的來理解有關這一個部分的條文的內容卡在什麼地方那我會盡快的把它在作用法的部分把它法制化這樣子好那法制化之後我認為其實它的作用就可以更靈活不是只是存款包括放款或是借貸等等是不是可以有機會讓它更靈活的運用那至少這一筆資金"},{"start":492.708,"end":492.728,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5c7db2dd072f937b89dbbe5275cafb4df8282b1d5b897dd1c3649d8bf9595885e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:10:51 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10:22:37","影片長度":"00:11:46","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:10:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:22:37+08:00","duration":706,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":242,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時10分）謝謝主席，請李遠部長和彭署長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請李部長、彭署長。"],["柯委員志恩：兩位好。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，你說你自己是外省第二代的客家人，你是在很短的時間當中被迫學會台語，因為老師用台語教書嘛！沒錯吧？而且你還說你常常聽文夏的台語歌，聽不懂你會自己編歌詞，表示你的台語不錯，但是你會說客語嗎？"],["李部長遠：客語不太行。我剛剛特別提到語言就是這樣子，我小時候跟我的阿嬤是要講客語的，但是現在忘光光了，因為後來到學校要講國語，再後來我的環境是老師用台語講課，我必須學台語。所以我剛剛一直講，語言是一個滿自然的……"],["柯委員志恩：我瞭解、我瞭解，部長，我跟你說，我7歲以前都不會講國語，因為我住在非常鄉下的地方，大家都講台語，可是7歲去上學以後，我的國語說得就像外省人了，對不對？所以如果要講台語，環境最重要嘛！對不對？要怎麼教也很重要，所以我們來看現在的小孩是怎麼讀書的，好不好？高中閩南語課本，所以剛剛在爭論什麼臺灣台語，這個是部定的，就是給你寫個閩南語文，好不好？就算臺灣的台語不能寫，閩南語文這個可能要改一下。部長，你來唸唸看啦！唸高中的閩南語課本，唸看看。"],["李部長遠：「菜市仔」……"],["柯委員志恩：「菜市仔」怎麼樣？不然署長來幫忙一下，署長會嗎？有誰會嗎？這是我們高中的閩南語課本啦！有誰會嗎？「菜市仔踅煞，買兩尾烏魚轉去，𪜶翁已經煮好規桌頂的菜，包括厚工的『糋卵』。我真捀場，食袂少，呵咾逐項菜攏好食。𪜶翁一下歡喜，叫我紮兩包伊家己包的、凍好的水餃轉去。我講有食閣有掠，哪會使！阿燕姊佇邊仔姑情拜託，親像咧叫我做善事。趁𪜶翁行出灶跤的時，伊細聲講冰箱窒甲袂喘氣矣啦，那講那拍開冰箱，『Tong！』一粒高麗菜跋落來。」這就是我們高中的閩南語教材。署長、部長，你說這樣子我們的小孩可以學會台語嗎？下面這個我就不會唸了，有什麼Becca、Baby等等，然後它下面還有註解，我們往下看，各位我們來看一下註解。我們來看下面就好，「姑情」……部長，「司奶」的註解是什麼？叫做「sai-nai」，你如果都看不懂，後面還有羅馬拼音可以看，這個就是我們學台語的方法。署長跟部長，如果你花這麼多錢來告訴我這是我們學台語的方法，你說這樣小孩比較容易學，如果這是他們在課堂裡面所學的範圍，難怪很多人就把它當作是一個營養的課程，就不太會好好去上。","我完全贊同我們要把語言學好，而且要讓一些快要消失的語言振興，我都很支持，但是你們用的方法花費了321億，包括這個層面來說，我們到底得到的效果是如何，我覺得這是我們今天要討論的。萬美玲委員常常在選舉的時候都要用台語，他講的真的是「五四三」啦！這個是成效很不好的緣故嘛！就表示你有這個錢，但是你沒有花在刀口上面，我們一一來審視。你看閩南語語言的認證已經超過15年，每一次的認證考試，我說實在的，兩次的考試預算就花了我們一億多，老師拿到認證，然後到我們的學校去教台語，這個是合理的嗎？這個東西會讓我們的孩子學得好嗎？署長，你先說一下，部長，你先瞭解一下所謂你要推動的這個語言，你覺得有辦法學得很好嗎？你完全用認證的方式，這也是花費非常多錢耶！"],["彭署長富源：委員，認證的部分我先請部裡的主政單位說明一下，待會兒我把剛才你講的那個教材跟您補充一下。"],["柯委員志恩：是。很快，我還有其他的。"],["顏副司長寶月：跟委員報告，因為其實辦理有關閩南語語言認證，基本上就是要鼓勵我們更多的孩子或是民眾去參加語言的……"],["柯委員志恩：我同意啊！我告訴你從檢視基礎來說的話，通常阿公、阿嬤……或是看8點檔連續劇可能還比較好。像臺灣現在為什麼韓語這麼流行？李遠部長你可能要知道，為什麼現在有這麼多年輕人去學韓語？因為他們對於韓國的流行文化，對於他們的Kpop太喜歡，他們就很有動機性的去學習。你如果每一次要推廣這些東西，然後訴諸於……更不要說還有那麼多原住民語言，就是沒有把錢花在刀口上，這是我們要去省思的，好不好？那我只是說你做這些認證，孩子是否有辦法……","這個東西是109年文化部辦理的，就像以我來說，我跟我父母親交談的比例，可能我有50%是講台語，我可以用一半的時間跟我爸爸媽媽講台語，我和我老公在說話的時候可能有40%是用台語跟他說，我和我小孩說話的時候可能只有21.5%，所以你三代流失的比率是非常高的，這就是文化部當初所做出來的。那你更不要說其他的，像原民會的代表今天到這個地方，不管是原民會的原住民語言或是等等，當你跟父母講話可能比率是最高，跟你的配偶可能稍微降低，再把你這個語言傳承給你的孩子的時候，它的流失比例就會更大，所以就表示一個政策出來，我們的執行面是有問題的，而且我們錢也花下去了，就像我剛剛所說的這個，你如果說每個人都用這樣來學台語，我是覺得真的不用了，這是要花很多錢的，都是非常多錢的，好不好？所以我們現在還在辯論到底是臺灣台語還是閩南語的時候，你給我這種教材內容……"],["彭署長富源：委員，給我10秒。"],["柯委員志恩：好。"],["彭署長富源：語言的學習，不是一年就能夠完成所有的學習，所以它是累積的，因此他在小一開始，一直到國中有兩年等等，它是累積的啦！"],["柯委員志恩：這種內容？這種教材？這種教材？"],["彭署長富源：第二，教材的內容容或我們可以再持續的精進。第三，它裡面的學習從拼音開始學，它的內容安排儘量是以比較生活的為主，如果委員檢視那個內容，我們可以再持續成長。"],["柯委員志恩：你光是用這樣的語言，就增加我非常多的認知負荷，你用「踅」完，我光是要知道「踅」那個字，我就不知道他在講什麼，我還要在國語學完之後……你還不如給我翻成這個部分，我還可以看到這個文字，我可以直接翻成台語，所以你與其要補助，你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦！我說實在的，阿公阿嬤就是教小孩說台語最大的來源，你同意吧？"],["彭署長富源：沒錯，所以這個行政院的計畫不是只有教育領域而已，是整個社會包含甚至廣播、甚至相關節目都一起來努力，還有家庭……"],["柯委員志恩：我懂，但是這個才是教育部最需要的，好不好？改一下。"],["彭署長富源：瞭解，我們教育單位會繼續來努力。"],["柯委員志恩：你還羅馬拼音成那樣，簡直是無字天書，我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝召委的指導，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：接下來我還要問，更令人擔心，這應該是回到我們的李遠部長，最令人擔心的還是我們的原住民語還有客語，然後部長你今天說要把台語變成主流，我也同意啊！在我們高雄、屏東、臺南，台語都是主流，但是其他地方怎麼辦？還有你剛剛也說把馬祖語變成……像我們高雄有很多金門人，他說為什麼他們的金門語不是國家語言？所以你說這個對其他的語言有公平嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：其實台語變主流，我好像沒有說吧？我沒有說這個話，在臺灣用台語的人口真的比較多。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是比較多啦！我只是強調，我們講了這麼多，你只要把國家語言擺出來，每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠，但是我覺得最重要的部分是，就像部長也同意，動機是一個問題嘛！動機是一個問題。"],["李部長遠：動機是學習主要的……"],["柯委員志恩：非常大的部分，環境是一個很大的問題，我只是凸顯出來非常多更弱勢的，像是你的母語客語，以及馬祖語、原住民語言，當每個人都在提到我們要拯救他們的時候，我們現在所做的很多方法，某種程度上，你是讓強者越強、弱者越弱，我們在討論國家語言的資源分配上面，我覺得部長你真的應該想想如何提升動機，而不是在這樣刻板的教材下面，這是整個環境、社會的一個氛圍。還有最重要的原因是，為什麼會造成這樣的結果？這可能也是署長可以回應的，因為在108課綱當中，很多老師就反映授課時數已經不足了，而且108課綱是108年1月公布，但是你把國家語言列為部定課程，是在課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的，所以你在課程發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來，會讓很多的授課還有包括很多的課程是被打亂掉的，不是嗎？"],["彭署長富源：當時在國小的部分，原來就有這樣的一個課程。"],["柯委員志恩：國小沒有問題啊！但是國高中啊！"],["彭署長富源：對，國高中的部分，在相應不增加總節數的情況下，在原來課程發展的學校課程，相關的發展過程應該是有空間，在不增加總節數，在有空間的情況下，來協助學校……"],["柯委員志恩：但是署長，你的空間很顯然跟第一線老師的認知是完全有落差的。"],["彭署長富源：瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：這都是第一線老師所反映的，你不應該在課綱完成之後，卻因為配了一個政策，然後又給他們看這種教材，真的是不知道在讀什麼。所以如果是這種既定部分的程序，我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的想法，用什麼樣特別的方法，而不是一個政策出來，當你覺得有點窒礙難行的時候，你應該用更多彈性的方法，而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次，然後又給他們這樣的課本，我們同意大家都要談自己的母語，可是用這個方法來學習母語，我現在告訴你，即使1年、5年花了三百多億，目前為止，這個成效還是有待討論的，你同意吧？"],["彭署長富源：這個還是要持續精進，不管就課程、師資、教材，甚至整體活化他的……像浸潤式的學習，或是社會的支持，這個我們要一起努力，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：好。還有最後我要請求部長，就是對於你5年花了三百四十幾億，各族群當中，你花的錢的細項到底放到哪裡，包括認證，還有包括你的細項，請在一個月之內給我每一個經費分配的部分，我要充分瞭解，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委，部長請回。","我們接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1135902_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.5572187500000005,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.16346875,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.180343750000002,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.70346875,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.36159375,"end":26.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.96346875,"end":35.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.64159375,"end":54.891593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.85971875,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.57534375,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.00034375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.11409375000001,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.99971875,"end":95.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.72846875,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.91784375,"end":103.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.33534375,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.87534375000001,"end":105.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.03971875,"end":106.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.07346875,"end":109.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.12784375000001,"end":109.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.54971875000001,"end":112.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.51971875000001,"end":115.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.89034375000001,"end":120.48471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.85596875,"end":122.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.01596875000001,"end":124.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.95659375000001,"end":125.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.30659375,"end":128.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.75346875,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.55471875,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.96346875,"end":137.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.76034375,"end":141.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.93284375000002,"end":143.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.35471875000002,"end":143.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.43471875,"end":143.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.65409375000002,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.67096875000001,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.32846875,"end":149.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.96534375000002,"end":151.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.83846875,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.66909375,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.39784375000002,"end":166.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.70534375,"end":167.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.86534375000002,"end":169.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.50221875,"end":171.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.10534375,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.53534375,"end":179.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.93534375000002,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.04909375,"end":182.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.73659375000003,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.03034375000001,"end":195.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.88221875000002,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.33721875,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.24346875,"end":207.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.16721875000002,"end":210.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.32284375,"end":262.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.85909375,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.77721875000003,"end":287.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.64846875,"end":289.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.41159375,"end":295.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.82909375,"end":293.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.64721875000004,"end":302.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.11034375,"end":302.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.46471875000003,"end":302.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.74721875,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.03659375,"end":407.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.71846875,"end":419.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.76284375,"end":419.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.89784375000005,"end":421.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.43346875000003,"end":435.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.27721875000003,"end":422.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":435.861593750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國語完之後你還不如給我翻成這個部分我還可以看到這個文字我可以直接翻成台語所以你與其要補助你還不如補助阿公阿嬤啦我說實在的阿公阿嬤開始要教孩子講台語最大來源啦你同意吧"},{"start":462.526,"end":470.05,"text":"所以這個行政院的這個計畫不是只有教育領域而已是整個社會包括像這個廣播甚至相關節目都一起來努力但是這個才是一個教育部最需要的好不好改一下你還羅馬拼音程那個簡直是無字天書我覺得這個東西都是我們在學語言當中非常大的部分接下來我還要問嘛"},{"start":485.458,"end":485.478,"text":"部長﹗"},{"start":514.192,"end":517.894,"text":"其實台語變主流我好像沒有說吧我沒有說這個話在台灣用台語的人口真的比較多當然是比較多啦我只是強調我們講了這麼多你只要把國家語言擺出來每一個族群都會認為做得還不夠但是我覺得最重要的部分是就像部長也同意嘛動機是一個問題嘛"},{"start":538.148,"end":554.94,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":554.98,"end":555.12,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":580.862,"end":585.504,"text":"已經不足了而且你108課綱是108一月公布但是呢你把國家語言列為不定課程是課綱完全完畢之後你又塞進來的所以你會造成很多人在這個課程的發展的程序上面硬要把這個塞進來會很多的授課族還有包括很多的整個課程是打亂掉的不是嗎"},{"start":603.519,"end":608.842,"text":"在國小的部分他原來就有這樣的一個課程國小沒有問題啊但是你國高中啊對 國高中的部分在相應不增加總結束的情況下那麼在原來課程發展的學校課程相關的發展過程啊應該是有空間這樣有空間的情況在不增加總結束在有空間的情況下但是署長你的空間很顯然跟第一線的老師的認知是完全是有一些落差的"},{"start":630.055,"end":658.425,"text":"這就是第一線老師所反映,你不應該在玩之後,因為配合的一個政策之後,然後又給我,哥給我看這款欸,真的不知道要說什麼話欸。所以說,我覺得是,如果是以這樣的部分裡面既定的部分的程序,我覺得你應該考量第一線老師的一個想法,用什麼樣的特別的方法,而不是一個政策出來,當你覺得有點至愛難行的時候,你應該用各多的彈性的方法,而不是直接加進去一個禮拜學一次,然後又給我們這樣的一個課本。"},{"start":659.605,"end":660.845,"text":"我現在告訴你即使一年五年花了三百多億目前為止這個成效還是有待討論的你同意吧"},{"start":674.331,"end":686.038,"text":"這個還是要持續精進不管就課程、私自教材甚至整體活化他的像金潤式的學習或是社會的支持這個我們一起努力還有最後我要請求部長就是對於你五年花了三百四十幾億各族群當中你花的錢的細項到底放在哪裡包括是認證還有包括你的一個細項請在一個月之內給我每一個經費的評分的一個部分我要充分了解"},{"start":702.97,"end":703.272,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5d0823be2e3185a6ab42b94709b0a08048282b1d5b897dd1c819318ace39e6e1f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:05:58 - 10:16:04","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T10:05:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:16:04+08:00","duration":606,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":289,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時6分）謝謝主席。本席邀請交通部陳次長及公總。"],["主席：請陳次長及公總陳文瑞局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：次長好。次長，我們今天來關心基隆公路邊坡塌下來的事情，當然有很多委員來關心這個事情，都要求你要做個總體檢，其實公總應該在去年就完成了總體檢嘛！你們在一年前針對C級以上的邊坡就總體檢完了，也就是總體檢做過了，滿一年，在總體檢的報告裡面有沒有提出有可能會崩塌的邊坡？沒有啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：據我的瞭解，總體檢……"],["林委員俊憲：你們的總體檢裡面大概全部都及格啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：沒有，總體檢完了以後，據我的瞭解，有些邊坡我們做了一些升級的處理，如果……"],["林委員俊憲：只是級數的調整而已啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我們可以提供給委員參考。"],["林委員俊憲：當然你們不可能完全預知，但有危險的要加強，不過今年落石的次數非常多，這就是一個徵兆，今年到現在才不到半年，落石通報件數已經有19件了，去年（2023年）才4件，前年11件，也就是今年到5月的落石事件就比前兩年加起來還要多。我們真正關心的基隆崩塌事件是最可怕的，就是毫無症狀，你們檢查也及格、也符合那個門檻，就是不需要特別巡查，你知道你們有一個特別巡查的門檻，你知道嗎？次長，你知道吧！陳局長，你跟次長講一下。"],["陳局長文瑞：有。"],["林委員俊憲：裡面提到3小時累積雨量要120啦！"],["陳局長文瑞：對，降雨量、地震都有。"],["林委員俊憲：然後前兩天累積雨量要350。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這個都沒有啦！"],["陳局長文瑞：沒有。"],["林委員俊憲：這個沒有，為什麼塌下來？這種狀況最危險，所以我認為你們的門檻要調整，為什麼？因為基隆在最近就有41次的大雨特報，然後臺灣又發生了大地震，花蓮地震嘛！是不是這樣子？所以這就是為什麼會造成，在地震以後光餘震就有一千多次，而且基隆大雨特報，最近兩個月內、從4月到6月發布了41次的大雨特報，但是對照你們必須特別巡查的門檻，通通不需要，如果以發生事故的這個地方，難道不是這樣嗎？是不是這樣？陳局長，是這樣嗎？所以我認為你們的特別巡查門檻應該要檢討，如果是有地震或者是有連續大雨，幾天以內達到多少次的大雨特報，就是你們所謂的檢討是要檢討這一次發生狀況前後的一些因素，不然這個邊坡如果這次沒有塌下來，在公總的紀錄裡面這個是安全的，也不用特別去檢查，它就沒事啊！難道不是這樣嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，有關這個門檻是不是要調整，我想我們會請公路局來做一些檢討，但是本次事件除了門檻這些，其實還有一大因素是地質上的，嚴格來講，我們相關的裡頭沒有把它考慮進去，這一部分是我們後續要檢討的部分。"],["林委員俊憲：如果你沒有把它考慮進去也是一樣啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["林委員俊憲：你就覺得那個不用特別去查啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：對，就是有這種現象。"],["林委員俊憲：以最近的天候狀況也不需要啊！難道不是這樣嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["林委員俊憲：當然公總的資源應該要再加強，你看高鐵的預警山崩落石，高鐵管的邊坡有389處，其中有危險的幾乎都有裝落石警告系統，它還有地震偵測、邊坡滑動偵測、風速偵測、洪水偵測、豪雨偵測，甚至有闖入的警告偵測，通通有。公總管的邊坡就有一千七百多個地方，你們還要再分ABC級，有關你們的硬體設備，我記得交通部也編了很多錢給你們，你們不足的地方應該要再趕快補強，是不是？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我想我們會請公路局來檢討。"],["林委員俊憲：你們至少要達到接近高鐵的標準吧！你看高鐵有裝各種的偵測系統，還是高鐵比較有錢？"],["陳次長彥伯：不是高鐵比較有錢啦！我覺得高鐵的行車安全……"],["林委員俊憲：高鐵的偵測系統當然主要全部都是預防嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，而且它本身也是……"],["林委員俊憲：因為高鐵速度快嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：它在設計……"],["林委員俊憲：只有傅崐萁開的高鐵會有兩秒鐘煞車啦！高鐵是兩、三百公里在開，它一定需要這些系統，確實高鐵營運以來都沒有發生邊坡塌下來而造成事故等等，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，這個我們會看怎麼樣來做，但是高鐵也好或者是高公局，其實某種程度是人工邊坡比較多的。"],["林委員俊憲：我認為你們特別巡查的標準要再檢討。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，是。"],["林委員俊憲：因為你們訂得太死了，像某個地區連續四十幾次的大雨特報，你總會感到緊張吧！或者是在地震以後，是不是特別警示的地方要再去看？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我請教一下運安會主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：主委好。我現在比較擔心的是運安會，你們現在是國家級的機構──國家運輸安全調查委員會，我擔心你們的人才流失問題，你們的航空調查組有一位調查官是有執照的機師，結果被星宇航空給挖去了，為什麼？因為開了3倍薪水，如果是我，我也跑了，對不對？你們就留不住這種人才了。然後你們有一位水路調查官，這位調查官具有船長的資格，他也被挖角了，去擔任引水人，薪水也很高，是進出港的那種引水人，所以他也跑掉了。我看你們現在的調查官還有很多缺額，還缺8個人，航空調查官現在缺了3個，航空調查官的編制是10個，至少要有一位開過飛機吧！你們現在剩下7個，你們有飛行經驗的嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們現在有飛行經驗的……"],["林委員俊憲：現在裡面都沒有了。"],["林主任委員信得：還有3個。"],["林委員俊憲：你們有嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：有3個，還有3個，我記得還有3個。"],["林委員俊憲：你要怎麼樣留住人才？像這樣狀況的話，你們缺額補得起來嗎？我很擔心啦！因為你們最近六年就離職10個，今年就離職3個，通通都是被挖角。所以運安會，既然你們的位階現在是定為國家級的一個單位，那為什麼吸引不到人才？可能是福利、薪資等等以外……"],["林主任委員信得：這個是……"],["林委員俊憲：我舉個例子給你參考，因為我時間有限，像澳洲的運安會，從學校的大學、研究所就跟學術界配合，去培訓未來所需要的調查官，這點可以給你當參考。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["林委員俊憲：要不然你永遠留不住人才，因為你們所訂定的人力裡面有些要求的標準都很高，要有機師執照、要會開飛機，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：對。"],["林委員俊憲：或者水路調查要有船長的執照，這兩類啊！有機師執照和船長執照在調查官裡面是薪水最高的，但是他再怎麼高都比不上民間，對不對？那麼你是不是很容易流失，怎麼辦？你現在缺了八個人，我看你最近6年每一年都有人離開，這樣業務會受影響嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：目前是OK啦！"],["林委員俊憲：OK是怎樣？那就不用補了，還是你們沒有什麼事可以做？"],["林主任委員信得：還是要補啊！現在有人來參訪、學校有來參訪或是我們去宣導的時候，我們都會告訴他們這個地方需要人才，那麼事實上人才的缺乏現在是普遍性的，航空公司也缺人，我們這邊也缺人，而且跟國內少子化也有一點關係，所以現在我們是多管齊下在做。跟委員報告，譬如我們航空組的調查官，我們的組成分子除了captain機師以外，我們還會修飛機、要懂航務系統……"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，它有很多種，要有法律背景，又要有什麼背景，一大堆啦！"],["林主任委員信得：把它整個組合起來的。"],["林委員俊憲：但你至少要有會開飛機的吧！"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們現在有3個。"],["林委員俊憲：你不會開飛機怎麼調查飛安事故？至少要有經驗的嘛！你不會開車，你怎麼調查車禍？"],["林主任委員信得：沒有錯。"],["林委員俊憲：你連車都不會開，車禍你是要……"],["林主任委員信得：我們人力整個調配在幾個……"],["林委員俊憲：好，因為時間的問題，以上建議給你當參考。"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。","待會等徐富癸委員發言完畢，休息10分鐘。","現在請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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我來請教一下運安會啦 運安會主委主委好 我現在比較擔心的是運安會 你現在是國家級的機構啦國家運輸安全委員會 我擔心你的人才流失的問題"},{"start":394.554,"end":420.275,"text":"我們的航空組吼,航空調查組吼,調查官吼,裡面有一位調查官吼,他是有執照的機師吼,結果被新的航空給挖去了吼,為什麼?薪水開了三倍,三倍薪水,那個人我也照他吼,對不對?你就留不住這種人才吼,然後我們一位水路的調查官吼,"},{"start":422.171,"end":449.009,"text":"這位調查官具有船長的資格他也被挖角了去擔任那個飲水人那薪水也很高建築港的那種飲水人所以他也跑掉了我們現在的調查官我看還有很多缺額還有缺8個人那航空調查官現在缺了3個人航空調查官編制10個人那你至少要有一位開過飛機吧"},{"start":450.714,"end":479.622,"text":"那你現在剩下7個,你們有飛行經驗的嗎?我們現在有飛行經驗的還有3個你們有嗎?有3個,我記得還有3個那你要怎麼樣留住人才?像這樣的那種狀況的話,你缺額你補得起來嗎?我很擔心啦,因為你最近6年就離職10個啦今年就離職3個啦,通通都是被挖角通通都是被挖角"},{"start":480.905,"end":510.206,"text":"所以我們運安會啊既然你的位階現在是定位國家級的一個單位那為什麼吸引不到人才可能是福利啊薪資等等以外我舉個例子跟你參考啦因為我時間有限像澳洲的運安會啊他從學校啊大學跟研究所啊他就跟學術界來配合他就去配合未來他需要的調查官"},{"start":512.376,"end":522.77,"text":"這點可以給你當參考要不然你永遠都不是人才因為我們訂的裡面的人力有些要求的標準都很高你要有機師執照你要會開飛機 對不對"},{"start":525.965,"end":546.944,"text":"或者說你水路調查你要有船長的執照這兩類啊有機師執照和船長執照在調查官裡面是薪水最高的但再怎麼高都不會比不上你民間嘛 對不對那你是不是很容易流失那你怎麼辦你現在缺了八個人我看你最近六年每一年都有人離開還是你這樣業務會受影響嗎"},{"start":552.918,"end":576.65,"text":"目前是OK啦 那就不用補啦我們現在有人在參訪學校有來參訪我們去宣導的時候我們都會告訴他們說這個地方需要人才那麼事實上人才的缺乏現在不普遍性的航空公司也缺人我們這邊也缺人而且跟國內少子化也有一點關係所以所以現在我們這個是多管齊下在做那跟委員報告"},{"start":577.41,"end":577.951,"text":"以上今天給你當參考"}]}},{"id":"153693","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153693","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d525ec38cb528c08a1b42b94709b0a08048282b1d5b897dd1c3339572f347eb8855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"09:56:09 - 10:05:45","影片長度":"00:09:36","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:56:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:05:45+08:00","duration":576,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":245,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（9時56分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請陳次長還有陳文瑞局長。"],["主席：請次長還有陳局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：次長早安。我們交通部對於公路旁的邊坡管理有依據它的穩定性跟不穩定性分為5個等級，就是A級、B級、C級、C+級還有D級。在這邊先請教一下，這樣子的區分一定是有所依據，A級一定是比較高危險性，是不是？不穩定性比較高，就是危險性比較高，依次分級。我們看到這一次在6月3號台2線70公里處邊坡滑落的意外事件，它是屬於C級，可能會造成國人一些比較疑惑或者是擔憂的地方，因為C級應該不是那麼不穩定的一個地方，竟然發生這樣子的意外，之後我們國人駕車出門的時候，到底哪一個路段是安全的？哪一個路段是比較高風險性的？我想這個是國人比較關心、擔憂的地方，是不是可以請次長先說明一下？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告一下，有關剛才提到的邊坡分級，其實就是便利於這種風險的控管，原則上C級邊坡我們認為風險相對是比較低的。"],["陳委員素月：比較低。"],["陳次長彥伯：這一次發生在C級邊坡上還是有這樣的崩塌情形，所以剛才在簡報裡頭，我們也特別提到會再去針對相關邊坡分級管理，尤其是C級的部分，是不是還有一些因素我們沒有考慮到，我們大概會去把它做一次檢討，檢討出來再滾進去邊坡管理制度，然後重新來做一些分級上的探討跟分類，以上。"],["陳委員素月：是，那我們針對C級的通盤檢測預計多久時間可以完成？"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上對於C級邊坡的檢查，部長是希望相關單位能夠在一個月裡頭把它完成。"],["陳委員素月：就是照次長剛剛回復的，一個月檢測完成之後，有些路段有可能比較不穩定，有可能會提升為A級或B級嘛？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們歷次總體檢完了以後都有做這樣的處理。"],["陳委員素月：就是會再做一個調整區分。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員素月：那調整之後，當然我們還是要關心針對A級、B級這種比較高風險的路段，我們要怎樣去確保這個安全性？我們知道目前高風險優先關注邊坡有45處，這45處的標準我們是怎樣去評估選定這個路段的？因為剛剛李昆澤召委也有關注，A級有258處，我們目前優先關注的只有45處，那其他的要怎麼處理應該也是大家關心的。"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員稍微簡單地說明一下，原則上大家所看到的A、B、C、D級，我們叫做定性，就是大家認為比較危險的，用這種描述性的，公路局的邊坡管理制度還引進了所謂的定量的分析，意思就是針對A、B級的邊坡打分數，看它掉落的情形還有邊坡的狀況等等的，它會做一些落石危害的分析評估，打完分數以後它會分成一、二、三、四、五級，在這五級裡頭，把三級以上的找出來，這就是大家現在、對外頭來講的優先關注名單，所以關注名單是從A、B級裡頭再去把它篩選出來最嚴重、要持續關注它的……"],["陳委員素月：會再進一步細分等等？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，就是兼顧了大家講的定性跟定量的分析，當然在這樣的分析制度裡，其實還算是有一定的嚴謹度，但還是有所謂的C級邊坡沒有列在這裡面，這也就是我剛才講的，後續我們會針對C級邊坡，也就是邊坡分級管理制度有沒有哪些因素是我們沒有考慮到的，我們會再做一些檢討，以上。"],["陳委員素月：針對優先關注的邊坡，我們會有其他的一些工程的加強或技術性的改善就對了？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，關於優先的邊坡，剛才講三級、三級以上，三級的話，剛才說有巡檢或者UAV，我們大概每季會去做；但四級以上的話，我們認為要嚴謹，我們委託一些單位對於這些邊坡來做一些類似像邊坡的變異分析或數值模型的比對，找到這些危害的因素在哪裡，看看我們應該怎麼樣把它處理掉，以上。"],["陳委員素月：是，另外我們也有針對比較高危險性的路段裝設落石告警系統，是不是？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員素月：我們目前裝了哪些地方？這些地方跟剛剛我們所謂的優先關注路段會是同樣的路段嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上會……剛才講優先關注以後，它就會做一些科技上的巡檢，科技巡檢完以後它就會改善，如果這些改善的路段是人力或者是機械無法到達的地方，我們就會裝設落石告警系統，所以原則上是follow剛才講的優先關注邊坡一直下來的。"],["陳委員素月：好，這所謂的落石告警系統當然就是要提醒可能有落石嘛，那這樣子的一個告警系統是對內的、還是對外？一般民眾可以看得到嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：可以看得到，我們有些在前面就會示警，告訴大家前方有落石等等。"],["陳委員素月：前方有落石是……"],["陳次長彥伯：它掉下來……如果已經開始在掉了，我們的落石告警就會提醒已經有落石下來，讓大家知道……"],["陳委員素月：是會透過簡訊還是透過怎樣的方式去告訴我們？"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上前面會有CMS的警示來告訴大家。"],["陳委員素月：電子看板的那種告示嘛？"],["陳次長彥伯：對。"],["陳委員素月：因為大家都很關心，畢竟我們出門在外、開車上路，也希望能夠一路都平安，所以對這樣子比較有高風險性的路段，大家都是會比較擔憂的啦！","再來，主席再給我兩分鐘時間，我再關心一下機車考照的部分。根據目前統計的數字，機車事故而死亡的人數占整體的交通事故死亡人數已經超過六成，我們也知道機車是國人最普遍使用的一個交通工具，所以怎樣讓機車行車安全、讓事故能夠降低，我想也是大家要努力的一個目標。我們也看到一個數字，有關機車考照，如果透過駕訓班的訓練之後，違規率會大幅的下降，我想這對提升機車騎士的整個行車安全也是有很大的幫助。","關於考照，目前公路局的駕訓部分有補助，就是我們國人去考照的時候，透過駕訓班考照是可以有補助的，這個補助政策好像是今年11月30號到期，我想請問一下這麼好的一個政策，我們是不是可以再讓它延續？"],["陳次長彥伯：據我的瞭解應該會繼續，是不是請局長說明一下？"],["陳委員素月：好。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，機車駕訓的補助在今年有實施，未來年度我們也有編預算。"],["陳委員素月：所以就是可以再延長就對了？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["陳委員素月：因為我們也看到昨天公布了新的機車考試題目類型，就是會加入感知的……"],["陳局長文瑞：危險感知影片。"],["陳委員素月：感知影片的考試，我想這個都是與時俱進的方式，當然對於未來提升機車騎士行車安全是一個很好的方式，所以我們也希望好的政策政府能夠繼續實施，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。","下一位請臺南市林俊憲委員，這樣說可以嗎？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.90346875,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.425968750000003,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.662218750000001,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.079718750000001,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.35721875,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.63971875,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.759718750000005,"end":37.071593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.44284375,"end":38.455343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.82659375,"end":49.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.727843750000005,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.36346875,"end":59.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.51096875,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.87221875,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.68596875,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.52346875,"end":116.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.57346875000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.37846875,"end":159.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.00596875000002,"end":170.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.19846875000002,"end":170.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.23221875000002,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.56971875000002,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.15971875000002,"end":203.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.44221875000002,"end":176.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.40409375000002,"end":177.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.94846875000002,"end":212.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.40284375000002,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.57534375,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.89159375,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.81096875000003,"end":276.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.19471875,"end":302.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.84034375000005,"end":309.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.58596875,"end":340.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.92721875,"end":353.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.84159375,"end":348.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.13596875,"end":356.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.00471875,"end":380.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.98846875000004,"end":383.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.41409375,"end":393.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.37909375000004,"end":391.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.45471875000004,"end":402.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.54596875000004,"end":405.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.33471875000004,"end":413.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.79346875000005,"end":416.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.79721875,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.18534375,"end":416.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.67471875,"end":424.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.14221875000004,"end":425.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.38659375000003,"end":424.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.87596875,"end":426.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.68596875000003,"end":428.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.49159375000005,"end":428.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.97659375,"end":429.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.26346875,"end":444.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.29721875,"end":429.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.80534375,"end":447.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.28159375,"end":451.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.28534375000004,"end":507.12471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.61409375000005,"end":518.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.75159375,"end":524.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.7084687500001,"end":528.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.19721875,"end":529.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.2647187499999,"end":529.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.6697187500001,"end":536.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.16221875,"end":553.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.86221875,"end":540.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.80534375,"end":555.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.45909375,"end":558.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.72846875,"end":564.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.8372187500001,"end":567.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.85784375,"end":574.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEA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09:55:23","影片長度":"00:11:48","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:43:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:55:23+08:00","duration":708,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時43分）謝謝陳雪生召委。請陳彥伯次長、林信得主委以及陳文瑞局長。"],["主席：請彥伯次長、林主委、文瑞局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：次長好。在5月16日本委員會質詢的時候，我就提及因為0403蘇花公路大清水路段嚴重的崩塌，它也是屬於C級的邊坡，我們看到不到半年內發生了兩次C級坡這樣的重大事件，其實對於公路的安全，必須更提高層級來做處理。我請教一下林信得主委，我們對於半年內C級邊坡兩次重大邊坡事件，運安會會啟動相關的處理跟調查嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：這個是屬於環境因素的部分，我們有調查的相關設備，我們會支援高公局。"],["李委員昆澤：主委，我必須提醒你，運安會針對公路系統啟動調查有三大原則，第一個原則就是，死亡3人以上，或者是死亡加受傷10人以上，另外就是受傷15人以上，這是第一個原則；第二個原則是對於有載送相關的危險物質發生洩漏或者是爆炸，這也要啟動相關的調查；第三就是，相關的事件重複地發生，或者是對相關的運輸安全有重大影響，像對人民的生命財產有嚴重衝擊的這些事件，也必須啟動調查。你認為這樣C級邊坡在半年內兩次發生這樣的大坍方是屬於自然的因素，所以不用啟動調查嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：這個如果是屬於系統性的，我們就會用……"],["李委員昆澤：如果重複發生，現在半年內已經發生兩次。"],["林主任委員信得：對，沒錯，我們就會注意到。"],["李委員昆澤：我是要特別提醒你。"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員昆澤：另外我們看到這次6月3號台2線70公里處的崩塌，當然致災的狀況是地震以及相關的極端型氣候、豪雨的沖刷，導致土壤邊坡富含水分。我們也看到土壤上的植被、植物其實生長也都算正常，沒有崩塌的徵兆，近幾年也沒有發生這種土石崩塌的情況，它是屬於無預警的崩塌，請次長說明一下，我先請教你，部長說6月11號之前要來搶通，目前的進度以及狀況，必須在安全無虞的狀況下通車，來說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我想委員特別提到，部長也去當地勘災、瞭解了狀況以後，因為有1萬2,000方要處理，所以目前律定的時間就是6月11號要恢復通車，這幾天我也去看了，我覺得相關的作業，同仁都是在很安全的情況下來進行，通車應該是審慎樂觀的。"],["李委員昆澤：在6月11號之前，應該是審慎能夠通車？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["李委員昆澤：而且是在安全無虞的狀況下？"],["陳次長彥伯：一定要在安全無虞的情況下。"],["李委員昆澤：這是我的一個最重要的監督原則，必須要安全無虞。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，一定是在安全無虞的情況下。"],["李委員昆澤：我們剛才看到A、B、C、D這四級的邊坡，其實都有它巡查、監測、檢查相關的機制，像我們對這些邊坡其實都有定期地巡查，也有定期的監測，還有相關的就是地錨的檢查。其實這些部分，我們看到相關的這些邊坡，我要提醒次長，我們C級加上C+級，總共有六百多處對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：公路局方面總共有603處。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我要跟各位說明的是，C級有明確的定義，那C+就是介於B跟C之間，總共有六百多處。部長有說，在一個月內要進行相關的盤點，那我們的量能夠嗎？人員夠嗎？在一個月內針對這六百多處的C+以及C級的這些邊坡能夠做盤點嗎？來說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想這部分就我的瞭解，應該是沒有問題的，詳情我是不是可以請公路局說明一下。"],["李委員昆澤：公路局說明一下。"],["陳局長文瑞：是，跟委員報告，因為我們會先由經濟部的地質調查及礦業管理中心有一個山崩雲，也就是山崩地質與地滑的一些敏感區，會先做大範圍的套疊，套疊以後針對C級邊坡又在地質敏感區的這個部分會做特別的檢測，其他有些部分我們必須要做相關的3D建模，因為這個是一個月先做一個初步的檢測，之後的話，因為經濟部地調中心的一個尺寸規模比較大，有些部分我們必須要做更深入的調查、地質的踏勘，這個部分後續還會有其他的時程規模。"],["李委員昆澤：局長跟次長，我們目前的檢測機制有分成三種，你們也清楚，屬於定期的檢測、隨機的檢測、特別的檢測，我們其實都有相關的機制，並不是說C級的邊坡就沒有做巡查跟監測，這是不對的。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我要提醒你們，剛才有委員在質詢，你們應該提出說明。定期的檢測包括邊坡的巡查，它基本上A級的話是一個月一次，B級的話是一季一次，C級的話是一年一次，D級的話是三年一次，是不是這樣？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，那是檢測，我們原則上巡查的部分是每週，一般檢測的話就是像我們說的。"],["李委員昆澤：所以我講的就是定期檢測。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["李委員昆澤：都有這樣的一個機制嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，都有。"],["李委員昆澤：現在半年內C級邊坡已經兩次致災，造成人民生命財產及交通安全的威脅，我們應該去檢討邊坡的分級機制。我們邊坡改善的前後，應該要把分級納入考量，就是說，原本A、B級如果經過改善，它也有可能變成C級，對不對？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["李委員昆澤：這些變成C級之後，我們還是要提高它相關的巡查跟檢測的頻率，應該是這樣吧？來說明一下。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，C級的部分就是透過巡查或檢測，它有不穩定的話就會升級、會直接把它升級到B級。像B級這種優先關注邊坡的話，每一季我們來做無人機的飛行建模。"],["李委員昆澤：這是升級的部分？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，就是說巡查或者是檢測，或者是因為它坍方後……"],["李委員昆澤：B級經過改善之後，它也有可能會降為C級？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，如果它穩定以後……"],["李委員昆澤：我現在講的就是說，B級如果降為C+或C級的話，它相關的巡查及檢測還是要高於一般C級的檢測。"],["陳局長文瑞：是，所以我們這一次包括監測跟分級的這個部分會一併通案地檢討。"],["李委員昆澤：另外我們要將頻繁降雨的地區，因為它含水性會更高，於頻繁地震之後，相關的結構穩定性要加以細分，增加各種情境系數納入考量。還有，我們要建立複合性的天災，如頻繁地震或是連續降雨這樣的一個機制。其實在每一次地震以及豪雨之後，我都會提醒交通部門的相關單位必須注意相關的土石崩塌，以及邊坡的滑石、相關土石流的處理，這都是次長要去加以督促的。","另外，我們以整體山體作為單位的全域管理機制，因為我們現在有時候上坡邊坡滑落，它也會牽動下坡被沖落的狀況，這樣必須是以整個山體作為單位的全域管理機制，有沒有問題，請說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告，剛剛委員特別提到的，就是整個上邊坡一直到坡頂這樣的一個檢查機制，我如果沒記錯，國3走山以後其實在公路法就已經訂定相關應該要檢查而且要處理的機制，所以這個沒有問題。"],["李委員昆澤：好，最後的時間，我認為我們應該要加速辦理邊坡防護計畫的相關進度，現在公路局統計現有的邊坡，A級有258處，B級有49處，C+級有22處，C級有603處，D級有776處，總計列管達到1,708處。其中A級的邊坡是有45處列為優先改善的邊坡，我要請教一下，其餘213處的A級，還有49處的B級，到目前好像沒有看到提出相關的改善計畫，是不是來說明一下？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，相關的監測跟改善計畫如果有需要、它如果不穩定的話，其實都有相關的持續改善計畫，只是說這一個列為……"],["李委員昆澤：目前就是沒有期程也沒有計畫，對不對？"],["陳局長文瑞：如果是災害還沒有修復完成的話，其實就都有修復、復建計畫，像4月3號之後的話，包括台8、台9線邊坡的部分都有相關的復建計畫。"],["李委員昆澤：我想地震頻繁的臺灣在全球極端氣候肆虐的狀況下，地震加上豪雨可能是未來常見的大自然現象，對於公路系統相關的，尤其是邊坡的安全保障，交通部次長以及局長必須要全力督促，以保障民眾基本的交通安全，這個是要全力以赴的，以上。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤召委，李昆澤召委是非常資深的交通委員，他有提到了一些綜合性災害什麼的，我想運安會這邊可以多多學習，他的指導很不錯。剛才講到監測的地方比較安全，沒監測的地方反而出狀況，這些你們要檢討一下，看怎麼樣去預防，好不好？這很重要。"],["林主任委員信得：我們會整體分析。"],["主席：你要滾動性嘛，對不對？下一位請陳素月委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","林月琴","黃珊珊"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部就「台二線70K 崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0772187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.51596875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.418468750000001,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.388468750000001,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.070968750000002,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.551593750000002,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.871593750000002,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.28909375,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.79096875,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.60471875,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.730968750000002,"end":30.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.01346875,"end":33.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.79784375,"end":35.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.36721875,"end":38.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.82659375,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.80534375,"end":42.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.42096875,"end":55.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.73096875,"end":61.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.23221875,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.54784375,"end":74.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.88846875,"end":77.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.92221875,"end":75.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.67284375,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.84784375000001,"end":98.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.41221875000001,"end":99.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.89721875000001,"end":109.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.24159375,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.24534375,"end":136.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.83221875,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.98784375,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.77221875,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.52284375000002,"end":146.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.09659375,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.15534375000001,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.09159375000002,"end":156.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.96846875,"end":159.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.47846875000002,"end":162.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.07721875000001,"end":167.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.30846875,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.74284375000002,"end":170.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.83971875,"end":176.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.67846875,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.02659375000002,"end":191.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.51159375,"end":191.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.54534375,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.56221875,"end":191.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.69721875000002,"end":191.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.24034375000002,"end":202.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.14284375000003,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.02909375000002,"end":236.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.75409375,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.97346875000002,"end":233.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.34034375000002,"end":236.28096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.05721875,"end":256.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.72721875000002,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.69971875,"end":275.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.07221875,"end":281.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.27784375000005,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.93971875,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.55284375,"end":312.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.47159375,"end":317.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.24284375,"end":326.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.80284375,"end":331.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.72596875000005,"end":335.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.94471875000005,"end":342.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.84659375,"end":348.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.28034375000004,"end":352.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.75221875,"end":356.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.80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全有重大影響像對人民的生命財產有嚴重衝擊的這些事件也必須要啟動調查那你認為這樣襲擊邊坡在半年內兩次發生這樣一個大攤房是屬於自然的因素所以不用啟動調查"},{"start":138.144,"end":158.752,"text":"這個如果是屬於系統性的,我們就會用...如果重複發生,現在半年內已經發生兩次,我是要特別提醒你啦。另外我們看到這一次的6月3日的台二線70公里出了這個崩塌,當然它自災的一個狀況,"},{"start":160.54,"end":188.726,"text":"地震以及相關的這種極端型氣候豪雨的沖刷導致土壤邊坡富含水分那我們也看到它的這個土壤上的直坯的植物其實生長也都算正常沒有崩塌的這樣的一個徵兆那近幾年也沒有發生這種土石崩塌的情況它是屬於無預警的這樣的一個崩塌來次長說明一下"},{"start":190.08,"end":211.722,"text":"我先請教你部長說6月11日之前要來搶通目前的進度以及狀況必須在安全無虞的狀況下通車來說明一下是我想委員特別提到部長也去當地勘栽了以後了解狀況以後也做了因為有一萬兩千方要"},{"start":212.102,"end":215.824,"text":"在6月11日之前應該是省慎能夠通車而且是在安全無虞的狀況這是我的一個"},{"start":237.17,"end":251.203,"text":"最重要的監督的原則必須要安全無虞是一定安全無虞的情況下那我們剛才看到我們這些ABCD的這四級的邊坡其實他都有他的一個巡查監測檢查相關的機制"},{"start":254.506,"end":280.887,"text":"像我們在這些邊坡其實都有定期的巡查也有定期的這樣的一個監測還有相關的就是地毛的一個檢查那其實這些部分我們看到相關的這些邊坡我要提醒次長我們西級加上西家級總共有600多處對不對"},{"start":283.983,"end":306.941,"text":"總共有603處公路局的方面我要跟各位說明的是C級有明確的定義C加就是介於B跟C之間就叫C加總共有600多處部長有說在一個月內要進行相關的盤點我們的量能夠嗎?人員夠嗎?在一個月內針對這600多處的C加"},{"start":312.557,"end":340.057,"text":"以及西極的這些邊坡能夠做盤點嗎 來說明一下我想這部分我的瞭解應該是沒有問題的那是不是詳情我請公路局做說明一下公路局說明一下各位報告因為我們會先由這個經濟部的地質這個調查還有礦物中心他有一個這個山崩雲也就是山崩地質地滑的一些敏感區那先做大範圍的一個套疊"},{"start":340.777,"end":366.855,"text":"那到底以後就是說針對就是說在這一個稀奇邊坡又在這個地質敏感區的這個部分的話會特別的檢測那其他的部分的話有一些部分我們必須要做相關的3D建模因為這個是一個月先做一個初步的一個檢測那之後的話因為它的一個就是說經濟部地料中心的一個尺寸規模比較大有些部分我們必須要做更深入的一個一個調查地質的一個踏桿"},{"start":367.535,"end":377.901,"text":"那這個部分後續還會有其他的一個時程規劃我們目前的檢測的機制有分成三種你們也清楚屬於定期的檢測隨機的檢測特別的檢測那"},{"start":383.12,"end":403.591,"text":"我們其實都有相關的這樣的一個機制並不是說西級的邊坡就沒有做巡查跟監測這是不對的我要提醒你們剛才有委員在質詢你們應該提出說明定期的這樣的一個檢測包括包括邊坡的巡查他基本上"},{"start":404.913,"end":415,"text":"A級的話是一個月一次B級的話是一季一次C級的話是一年一次D級的話是三年一次是不是這樣"},{"start":417.727,"end":427.535,"text":"那是檢測我們原則上巡查的部分是每週巡查每週那特別檢那個一般檢測的話就是像我講的就是監測檢測都有這樣的一個機制嘛那我們現在半年內這個西極邊坡已經兩次的這個自災啊造成"},{"start":437.623,"end":458.823,"text":"人民生命財產的一個交通安全的威脅那我們應該去檢討這個邊坡的分級機制那我們邊坡改善的前後應該這個分級要納入考量就是說原本AB級如果它經過改善它也有可能變成C級對不對那這些C級變成C級之後"},{"start":461.826,"end":486.116,"text":"我們還是要提高它相關的巡查跟檢測的頻率應該是這樣吧 來說明一下各位報告就是說C級的部分就是說透過這個巡查或檢測它有不穩定的話就會升級了就直接把它升級到B級那B級的話就是說這種像這個優先關注邊坡的話每一季我們還做無人機的一個飛行建模這是升級的部分對"},{"start":486.876,"end":511.461,"text":"會就是說巡查或是檢測或者是因為他攀方後（他B級經過改善之後他有可能會降為C（對對對他如果穩定以後我現在講的就是說B級如果降為C加或是C級的話他相關的巡查及檢測還是要高於一般C級的這樣的一個檢測是所以我們這一次的包括這個監測跟這個分級的這個部分我們會一併通案的檢討另外我們要"},{"start":512.841,"end":530.076,"text":"將平凡降雨的地區因為它含水性會更高與平緩地震之後相關的結構穩定性要加以細分來增加各種情境係數的納入考量還有我們要建立"},{"start":530.777,"end":557.639,"text":"復活性的天災如平緩地震或連續降雨的這樣的一個機制那即使在每一次地震以及豪雨之後我都會提醒交通部門相關單位必須注意相關的土石崩塌以及邊坡的滑死相關的這些土石流的這樣的一個處理這都是次長要去加以督促另外我們的這個整體"},{"start":559.08,"end":579.597,"text":"三體來作為單位的全域管理機制因為我們現在有時候上坡邊坡滑落他也會牽動下坡的這樣的一個也會被沖落的這樣一個狀況這樣必須是以整個三體來作為單位的全域管理機制有沒有問題來說明一下"},{"start":581.358,"end":599.585,"text":"我想跟委員報告,這樣剛才委員特別提到的這個就是整個上邊坡一直到坡頂的這樣的一個檢查這一個機制呢,其實在我如果沒記錯在國山走山以後其實在公路法就已經有訂定相關應該要檢查而且要處理的一個機制,所以這沒問題。"},{"start":600.365,"end":610.57,"text":"最後的時間我認為我們應該要加速辦理邊坡的防護計畫相關的進度我們現在公路局統計現有的邊坡A級有258處B級有49處C級有22處C級有603處D級有776處那總計列管達到1708處"},{"start":624.716,"end":647.515,"text":"那其中A級的邊坡是有45處改為啊列為這個優先改善的這樣的一個邊坡那我要請教一下那其餘的213處的這個A級還有49處的B級到目前好像沒有看到提出相關的改善計畫是不是來說明一下"},{"start":649.136,"end":675.364,"text":"是各位報告就是說相關的這一個監測跟改善計畫如果有需要他如果不穩定的話其實都有都有相關的一個持續的一個改善計畫那只是說這一個但目前就是沒有期程也沒有計畫嗎對不對如果是還在災害還沒有修復完成的話其實就都有修復復建計畫像4月3號之後的話包括台八台九線的邊坡的部分的話都有相關的一個復建計畫"},{"start":676.404,"end":696.172,"text":"我想在地震頻繁的臺灣在全球極端氣候的這樣的一個肆虐的狀況地震加上豪雨可能是未來常見的這樣的一個大自然的現象那對於公路系統相關的引起是邊坡的安全保障是次長是交通部"},{"start":696.972,"end":706.644,"text":"以及局長必須要全力督促來保障民眾交通安全的一個基本的這樣的一個保障這個是要全力以赴的以上"}]}},{"id":"153691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153691","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d51fad29d8df9fe314b42b94709b0a08048282b1d5b897dd1c182b5bed1764569a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:32:34 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這個也是一個天災可是問題出在哪邊呢問題你們把它內陸根本一點危險都沒有所以這個就是我們的監控制度到底有沒有問題你們的巡查到底有沒有問題所以你們只要一不小心一不認真就會造成老百姓生命跟財產的受損"},{"start":123.246,"end":139.911,"text":"所以我還是要拜託我今天主題就是要來檢討到底你們的監控制度以及你們列入你們的這些邊坡管理的監控制度到底有沒有問題"},{"start":140.791,"end":163.252,"text":"所以市長我也知道你從從這個公路系統或什麼這個你對這個也是非常內在行所以我要拜託你因為你是政務官你必須還是要去監督這幾個跟人民生命財產有關的這個部分一定不能啊一定不能啊去負累的"},{"start":163.812,"end":180.333,"text":"所以我現在要請教我剛才看到報告我們公路局的我們的陳局長我們現在列入監控的地方前台灣省所有公路這麼多我看你的報告只有86位是要監控是不是"},{"start":182.728,"end":185.231,"text":"高速公路局來趙局長請問你們現在危險的地區或者會危險的地區你們現在裝置有多少"},{"start":201.361,"end":220.168,"text":"跟委員報告我們所有的那個西極邊坡都已經裝測了多少個我要知道多少我們現在所有的邊那個604處的西極邊坡他裝了3131支就是我們高速公路高速公路是這個國一國三國這個所有的604處604處來那個那個那個台灣的那個海鐵多少"},{"start":228.769,"end":251.786,"text":"有跟委員報告齁我們有38處裝有我們的監測儀器另外還有目前已經在正式就是西級的嗎就是所有的所有的所有的對就是我們所有的沿線沿線有裝有裝監控的另外還有26處我們監控室落實告警那是另外的還有26處好那個那個馮總"},{"start":256.471,"end":261.302,"text":"來高速公路那個那個高鐵你們現在有多少?"},{"start":262.23,"end":262.41,"text":"好!好!"},{"start":293.322,"end":311.71,"text":"來那個陳正智這個就是問題所以我們台那個台二線這個部分滑落欸你們你們不管是空拍阿或什麼什麼遺跡去偵測多數安全喔可是為什麼會發生這個事就是制度有問題嘛"},{"start":313.493,"end":333.233,"text":"所以我還是要建議我們交通部這裡針對這些人民的安全你們監視是已經發現到喔可是今天台二線發生這個事情還好這都是停車場喔如果是人口密集的東西那一定會出人命"},{"start":333.894,"end":361.034,"text":"有幸這次沒有出人命只有小傷還有車損的部分用錢可以解決的都沒有問題生命丟了以後這是人命關天所以陳正智我坦白跟你講這種事情不能怠慢為什麼我要請四大所有的公路跟交通這個單位監控的東西不能負累你不要以為裝上"},{"start":362.675,"end":388.579,"text":"被你們花線裝上的都沒有問題是沒有被你們花線的才是有問題像台二線這個事情就是這樣啊不是嗎所以我要建議部長這裡要特別把它當成真正是一回事人民的生命是可貴的財產還可以還可以可以可以來來這個疑問但是生命是無價的"},{"start":389.019,"end":416.258,"text":"所以我要拜託你們四個單位一定要針對這些以我現在所了解過去我們盛巷坡不是有走山的問題嗎那你們現在做了以後欸其實沒有這回事啊那個就是落實但是現在發生這些事情根本你們就是不落實嘛用目視啊不然就用空拍那空拍怎麼會排除真正裡面的事情所以我要建議"},{"start":417.6,"end":445.818,"text":"新加坡就像前幾天台北市它樹木裡面用木式的每一個樹木沒有問題但是裡面已經病蟲侵蚀要倒了所以現在你在台北市是引進新加坡的新遺跡啊也就是它的紅外線紫外線它一照下去裡面有沒有空洞人家馬上知道所以我要拜託"},{"start":446.838,"end":463.389,"text":"當然因為我對高鐵馮總你們這裡對於監控這個機制我是較為肯定上次我執行的時候我就建議我們杜董事長要比照高鐵的規格去做這些事不要以為你們現在有幾個監控"},{"start":465.37,"end":483.973,"text":"最危險的地方就是你們沒有在注意的地方才會發生這個事故所以我要拜託我們城市長在這個部分你們要開一個專案把這種東西向我們公路總局拜託你們的編制人員每一個段"},{"start":485.294,"end":511.347,"text":"人員都很多你們要成立一個專責小組去做這些只要下雨只要地震只要颱風你們要去做這些危險評估小組也就是不要增加人員但是你們的人有基本常識去目睹以後有問題趕快回報給總局去做這些危機預防的動作"},{"start":511.707,"end":540.689,"text":"我們沒有做這些我們沒有做這些所以我在本席啊因為時間到了拜託陳正智這個部分我希望四個單位一定要把它當成是你們的重要一個課程那我也要拜託我們這個林主委這個部分你們要提供你們專家可以預防勝過治療的這些政策提供給他們監督他們把它做好這樣台灣人民在行"},{"start":542.47,"end":564.518,"text":"陳做這等等他才會有一個安全好不好正是是我跟委員簡單回應兩點啦第一個是有關不管是颱風也好、豪雨也好或特殊事件之後其實本部的相關的局或是公司他們都會有做相關的巡檢而且會滾動檢討他那個分級的等級這是一定會去做的啦"},{"start":564.938,"end":588.315,"text":"至於說那個剛才特別提到的監控系統的是不是可以再繼續擴大或更落實這部分我們再來跟相關大家共同來討論我們前幾天大概也有發現像剛才特別提到高工局西級以上的邊坡他其實都裝了我覺得這個可以給各單位來做一些考量那個政策我必須要提醒你"},{"start":589.356,"end":610.132,"text":"這一次發生的事情是沒有監控的就代表是有問題的該監控的不監控這個問題是出在這裡所以我要拜託市長回去跟部長講這要責成這四個單位這跟人民生命財產有關的不能開玩笑把它列入一個檢討重點"},{"start":612.533,"end":626.948,"text":"這個最早要正式你們去監督你們去盯那我們也要拜託林初緯在這個部分也要去提供一個專家的意見這個部分希望我不希望下一次每一個單位又會有"},{"start":628.43,"end":649.579,"text":"我在這裡拜託最後30秒我要拜託四個單位你們現在稀奇有危險的這些東西提供給本委員會的委員好不好讓我們做參考你們現在有多少個監控的地方還有評估有危險的地方請四個單位提供給我們好不好可以嗎沒有問題謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153690","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153690","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d567e89a272f65b31db42b94709b0a08048282b1d5b897dd1c04f966d313e88c125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:22:02 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09:32:24","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、邀請交通部就「台二線70K崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【合併詢答】【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:22:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:32:24+08:00","duration":622,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時22分）有請林信德主委。"],["主席：請主委，謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：委員早。"],["林委員沛祥：主委，我記得上次在4月19號質詢時，我就有特別提醒高速公路邊坡要檢測的議題，不知道諸位還記不記得？4月19號的時候，我上次在質詢時有特地提到這一點。其實我看到報告，基本上本席對於這報告給予肯定，因為我講完之後你們就馬上開始作業，但是本席還是要在這邊特地再提醒一次，因為4月3號發生了大地震，不會只單單純純對於發生事情的地方有所影響，大地震之後還有很多餘震，甚至無感地震都會對於我們的地質造成一定程度的破壞。","本席在這邊還是一樣，針對汐止交流道走山，我剛剛有問過運安委員會的同仁們，關於當初汐止國3大走山，但因為運安委員會是在4年前成立的，所以沒有辦法追蹤到，因此本席在這邊特地以正式發言、會議記錄的方式，建請運安委員會針對當初國3在2010年4月25號那時發生大型走山事件的附近做出一定程度的偵測，並給予高公局一定程度的建言。","主要是兩個原因，第一個剛剛已經講過了，有關地震；第二個其實是因為現在每天早上7點之後，國1跟國3都會大塞車，那只要有一點點……就算沒有出現任何的人命傷亡、傷害，但只要出現一點點道路上的問題，就會造成絕對的大塞車，上班、上課族會變得非常辛苦，所以在這邊建請運安會主委特地針對這件事情再提供給高公局足夠的報告。"],["林主任委員信得：這是道路主管機關跟地方政府的權責，但是我們運安會可以從獨立機關的角度協助高公局，看怎麼樣改善它的安全，我們可以協助他們。"],["林委員沛祥：好，就麻煩了。"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝。再來請陳次長。"],["主席：陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：次長，請你簡要地針對在基隆市八斗子發生的事件，主要是後面大概什麼時候……剛剛有聽到我們召委提到6月11號會恢復通車，針對現況什麼時候通車？目前狀況如何？你們後面怎麼樣做出一定程度的補救機制？請做出簡單的回答。"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，有關11號要通車的這件事情，其實今天在媒體上我們也說明了，我們會分幾個階段在降挖，邊坡上的浮石也做了一些處理，事實上，相關工程人員是日夜在做清除的工作，我們審慎、樂觀的認為，在安全的情況下，在11號的時候可以如期地來做相關的通車。","至於後續的部分剛才報告裡頭也特別提到，或者是召委有特別提到，其實這個邊坡應該是厚層的塊狀岩石跟薄的頁岩相互交織在那裡，所以那個地方的邊坡在它植被非常良好的時候，從外觀上是看不出它有這個問題的，但是這兩個，不管是沙岩或者是頁岩，因為耐風化的強度不一樣，又加上有水的因素在這裡面，造成了所謂關鍵岩石的浸潤軟化，後來這個岩石就崩塌下來，造成了這樣一個情形。","針對這樣一個特性的岩層結構，在剛才的報告裡頭有特別說明，我們大概分為三個部分，第一個，當然是對所有的邊坡，包括C級的邊坡，部長已經下達指示，要做全面總體檢，那是對所有的，不管是各個公路、鐵路，都是要做的。","至於這個地方剛才有特別提到，因為它有山崩地滑的潛勢區域，所以公路局第一步會先去套疊這些區域，然後就像剛才講到的，針對這種斜交逆向可能會崩塌的邊坡或者是有差異化的侵蝕，會先做一些由C級提升為B級的部分，就是立即要去做一些改善。長期而言，也會跟地質圖做一些套疊，然後邀請專家學者再做一次全面的檢視，就台2線的這個路段做相關邊坡管理的一個精進，以上。"],["林委員沛祥：有一些資料未來我想請交通部提供給我們交通委員會，第一個，對於潛勢土石流地區進行地盤改良，相關增加邊坡安全的安全性計畫，希望我們交通部可以提供；第二個，針對公路周邊易崩塌跟土石流潛勢區提出調查報告；第三個，提供2010年4月23號國道走山事件、2013年8月31號碧砂漁港巨石掉落事件、2022年11月1號國1汐止段走山事件，跟現在最新2024年6月3號潮境的走山事件，本席建請我們交通部提供3年內的邊坡檢測報告，畢竟你們才是專業，若要讓民眾安心的話，我們是需要專業的報告跟評估的。","有幾點我要特別提出來，有關你剛剛講的邊坡巡查跟管理機制，本席希望在特別巡查中，這次B級邊坡的數目應該要增加，因為經過4月3號的大地震，我剛剛也跟林信得主委在談，經過這次大地震之後，其實有很多地方本來是我們不知道的，相對來講，就像今天我們看到的八斗子那裡，看起來是很好的，可是裡面的結構其實已被破壞，我覺得在這個前提之下，B級的邊坡應該要增加，而且一併納入巡查之中，甚至連植被完整的邊坡也要一併加強巡視。","另外一方面，為了確保我們巡檢人員安全無虞，一般來講，我們巡檢安全人員都是用肉眼或是人上去巡查，但是現在我會強烈建議，利用AI或科技工具來做輔助，甚至用無人機來徹底進行周邊邊坡的檢視，一方面是這樣比人工、人眼來得準確；二方面也是減少所謂人員檢查的風險。","第二件事情，在這邊要建請我們交通部，我在3月26號的時候有跟臺鐵公司辦過一個會勘，就是有關基隆市龍安街96巷23號，其實那邊的邊坡也是相當的危險，甚至上面還有民宅在那邊，而且民眾有疑慮，因為那邊的擋土牆已經有一定程度的龜裂了，這個會勘是在3月26號進行，而4月3號大地震之後，是否那邊的安全係數已經加強？"],["陳次長彥伯：我是不是可以請董事長來說明？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，在4月3號地震以後，我們臺鐵公司有進行所有邊坡的檢測，那邊我們會予以加強。"],["林委員沛祥：次長，我為什麼特別要把這個會勘提出來，因為這個會勘不會是個案而是通案，所以臺鐵跟高鐵旁邊的邊坡檢測，都要特別注意。我們都知道，臺鐵、高鐵只要有一點點事情發生，那不只是阻礙我們的通勤，甚至很有可能有大量人命的傷亡，就是因為擔心像這樣的事情發生，所以在這邊請次長特別要注意。","第三點，我在這邊要特別提到台2線北濱跟基金公路段的附近其實落石機率很高，以旁邊的地質來講，有一個是我基隆市西岸中山區湖海路的路線，湖海路的路線過去10年內有4次的坍方，當然那個是都市計畫、是屬於基隆市政府的管轄地區沒有錯，可是湖海路跟我們台2線這邊非常的接近，相對來講，地質應該差不了多少，所以如果中山區湖海路那邊有4次落石掉下來的話，本席不禁擔心台2線的另外一邊，也就是到金山、萬里附近的基金公路段，尤其是假日的時候那邊時常會塞車，所以在邊坡的檢測上面，建請我們部裡面要特別注意。","此外，本席在這邊一定要肯定我們部裡面對這次急難上所採取的緊急措施，但是我還是不禁要提醒，這件事情全國都在看之外，而且人命關天，這次在基隆很慶幸的、不幸中的大幸只有兩位我們的基隆市民受到輕傷，而且也只有車子受到一些損傷，財物也沒有損失太多，但是像這樣的事情，本席比較烏鴉嘴一點，這可能不會是特例，因為這次大地震造成地質的改變，可能這會慢慢變成通例。針對這一點，請交通部跟我們運安會特別要注意，這件事情儘量防患於未然，防範、準備越多越好，以上，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會加強相關精進作為。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員。下一位請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":436,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-15","speakers":["陳雪生","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","何欣純","許智傑","游顥","廖先翔","魯明哲","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","黃國昌","林月琴","黃珊珊"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通\n部就「台二線70K 崩塌暨道路邊坡滑坡監控作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢【合併詢答】","agenda_id":"1135801_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":5.042843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.042843750000001,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.353468750000001,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.37034375,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.58784375,"end":31.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.751593750000005,"end":106.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.02346875,"end":75.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.17471875000001,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.83721875,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.66721875000002,"end":145.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.81409375,"end":147.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.65784375,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.72096875,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.97409375,"end":150.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.85096875000002,"end":153.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.49971875,"end":183.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.96846875,"end":320.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.85846875000004,"end":320.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.22971875,"end":343.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.84221875000003,"end":406.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.19534375,"end":447.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.72471875,"end":450.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.30221875,"end":478.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.94346875,"end":480.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.03596875000005,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.84596875000005,"end":482.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.87534375,"end":494.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.97471875,"end":496.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.64534375000005,"end":621.5034687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.269,"end":31.29,"text":"有請林信得主委主委我記得在4月19號上次我來質詢的時候就有特別提醒到說這個高速公路的邊坡要檢測的議題不知道主委還記不記得4月19號的時候我上次在質詢的時候我特地提到這一點"},{"start":33.051,"end":56.124,"text":"其實我看到報告基本上本席是對於這報告給予肯定因為我講完之後你們馬上就開始去作業但是本席還是要在這邊特地再提醒一次因為4月3日發生的大地震不會只單單純純對於說我們今天發生事情的地方有所影響甚至說有很多大地震之後還有很多餘震甚至五感地震都會對於我們地質造成一定程度的破壞"},{"start":56.864,"end":81.738,"text":"所以本席還在這邊這邊還是一樣針對這邊只有矽子南這個矽子交流道走山那我剛有問過我們這個運安委員會的同仁們他們說因為這個矽子當初國三的大走山這件事情我們是那個大安委員會是在運安委員會在4年前成立的所以沒有法追蹤到但是本席在這邊特地以會議紀錄以正式發言會議紀錄的方式建請"},{"start":82.398,"end":104.693,"text":"我們運輸安全調查委員會針對國三當初在20當初國三在2010年4月25號那時候發那時候發生的大型走山事件的附近做出一定程度的偵測的偵測並與給高工局一定程度的建言因為這是因為我本期主要主要是兩個原因第一個剛剛已經講過有關地震第二個其實是因為說現在"},{"start":106.434,"end":130.947,"text":"只要早上7點之後每天早上7點之後國一跟國塞都會搭塞車那只要有一點點就算沒有出現任何的人命傷亡傷害但是只要出現一點點的這個一點點道路上的問題的話就會造成絕對的搭塞車那變成說上班上課組會變得非常辛苦所以在這邊建請我們應安會主委特地針對這件事情再提供給高空局這邊足夠的報告"},{"start":134.262,"end":149.855,"text":"這個是道路主管機關跟地方政府的權責但是我們應該會可以從獨立交通機關角度我們可以協助高中局來看怎麼樣改善他的安全我們可以協助他好就麻煩了好謝謝那再來請我們再來請陳部長陳部長請陳市長"},{"start":160.517,"end":182.848,"text":"市長請你簡要的針對今天在基隆市八朵子發生的事件跟後面主要是後面大概在什麼時候剛剛有聽到我們我們召委特地有知道說6月11日會退赴通車可是針對現在最後面怎麼樣什麼時候通車那目前狀況是如何你們怎麼樣做出一定程度的後面的補修機制做出簡單的回答"},{"start":184.562,"end":211.539,"text":"我跟委員報告一下有關11號要通車的這件事情其實從今天媒體上我們也說明了我們分幾個階段在降蛙那邊坡上的腐蝕也做了一些處理那相關的這個工程人員大概日夜的在做一個清楚的工作那我們有樂觀省省的樂觀認為可以在安全的情況下在11號的時候如期的來做相關的通車"},{"start":212.399,"end":235.117,"text":"至於說後續喔﹖剛才這個報告裡頭也特別提到﹖或者是專委﹖專委有特別提到﹖其實這個邊坡呢﹖它是一個應該是厚層的一個塊狀的岩石﹖跟那個薄的這個頁岩相互交織在那裡的﹖所以那個地方的一個邊坡﹖它質批非常良好的時候﹖從外觀上是看不出它有這個問題的﹖"},{"start":236.058,"end":257.038,"text":"但是這兩個這個不管是沙岩或者是液岩它因為風化的一個強度的耐風化的強度不一樣又加上有水的因素在這裡面所以造成了所謂關鍵岩石的一個浸潤然後軟化然後這個岩石後來就崩了下來然後就造成了這樣的一個情形所以"},{"start":258.238,"end":277.946,"text":"針對這樣特性的這樣的一個嚴懲的一個結構所以剛才在這個報告裡頭有特別有說明我們大概分三個部分第一個呢當然是對所有的邊坡西級的邊坡部長已經下達指示了就是要做全面的一個總體檢那是對所有的不管是各個公路鐵路要做的"},{"start":278.366,"end":296.384,"text":"至於說這個地方呢,剛才有特別提到因為它有一個山崩地滑的一個潛勢的區域所以公路總局第一個步驟會先去套疊這些區域然後就剛才講到的會有這種斜礁的可能斜礁逆向的邊坡可能會崩塌的"},{"start":297.285,"end":320.683,"text":"或是差異．我馬上講完重點．有差異化的一個70的話．他會先做一些由C級提升為B級．那就立即要去做一些改善．那長期而言他會跟地質．地質圖做一些套疊．然後邀請專家學者再做一次前面的檢視．就這個台二線的這一個路段．做相關的一個邊坡的一個管理的經濟．以上"},{"start":322.824,"end":343.256,"text":"我認為這邊有一些資料未來我想請部長請交通部來交給我們交通委員會第一個對於淺市土石流地區進行的地盤改良然後以增加邊坡安全的安全性企劃這我希望說我們交通部可以提供第二個是針對公路周邊一崩塌跟土石流淺市區提出調查報告"},{"start":344.056,"end":365.453,"text":"第三個要提供在2010年4月23日國道走山事件2013年在8月31日必殺漁港巨石掉落事件2022年在國一11月1日國一汐止斷走山事件跟現在最新的2024年6月3日潮進的走山事件我們交通委員會"},{"start":366.414,"end":390.667,"text":"本席建請我們交通部在3年之間的3年內的邊坡檢測報告都要提供回來畢竟你們才是專業我們必須要讓民眾安心的話我們是需要專業的專業的專業的報告跟評估的另外有幾點我特地要提就是有關你剛剛講的邊坡巡查跟管理機制本席希望說在特別巡查中這次的B級邊坡應該要增加"},{"start":393.288,"end":418.939,"text":"因為經過4月3日大地震之後我剛剛也跟林主委林信得主委在談經過這次大地震之後其實有很多地方本來我們是不知道本來是相對來講就跟今天我們在看到八斗直面一樣看起來是很好的可是隨時可是裡面的結構其實已經被破壞那我覺得在這個前提之下B級的邊坡應該要增加而且一併納入巡查之中甚至連植被完整的邊坡也要一併加強巡視"},{"start":419.719,"end":445.854,"text":"另外一方面來講也為了說要確保我們巡檢人員安全無疑的狀況之下一般來講我們的巡檢安全人員都是去肉眼或是人上去巡查但是現在我會強烈建議說利用AI或科技工具來做輔助甚至無人機來去做徹底進行周邊邊坡的檢視一方面是這樣比人工人眼來的準確之外第二方面也是減少所謂人員在檢查的風險"},{"start":447.796,"end":468.409,"text":"第二件事情是我這邊要建請我們交通部我在3月26號的時候有跟台鐵公司有辦過一個會刊就是有關基隆市龍安街96巷23號其實那邊的邊坡也是相當的危險而甚至說上面有民宅在那邊住那民眾其實有疑慮那邊的當土牆其實已經有一定程度的軍列了"},{"start":469.85,"end":494.74,"text":"但是這是在這個會刊是在3月26號而4月3號大地震之後是否那邊的這個安全係數已經加強我是不是可以請那個董事長來說說是跟委員報告那個我們在4月3號地震以後我們台鐵公司我們有進行我們所有的邊坡的一個檢測那邊我們會予以加強好"},{"start":496.801,"end":520.022,"text":"市長我特地要提為什麼把這個會刊提出來因為這個會刊不會是個案而是通案台鐵跟高鐵旁邊的邊坡檢測都要特別注意因為我們都知道說只要有一點點事情發生台鐵高鐵那不只是說阻礙我們的通勤之外甚至很有可能大量的人命傷亡就是因為像這樣的事情發生所以這邊請市長特別要注意"},{"start":520.442,"end":537.218,"text":"第三點就是我這邊特地提到台二線北濱跟基金公路段這附近其實落實的機率很高因為旁邊以旁邊的地址來講旁邊地址裡面有一個自我基隆市西岸中山區湖海路的路線可是"},{"start":537.859,"end":553.54,"text":"胡海路路線在過去10年有4次攤幫當然那個是都市計畫那個是屬於基隆市政府的管轄地區沒有錯可是胡海路跟我們的台二線這邊非常的接近相對來講地質其實應該差不了多少所以胡海路在胡"},{"start":553.82,"end":571.869,"text":"他湖海路如果在中山區湖海路那邊有4次落石掉下來的話那本席不禁擔心說我們台二線的另外一邊也就是在到金山萬里附近的這個基金公路段尤其是假日的時候那邊是時常會時常會塞車的所以在這邊在邊坡的檢測上面建請我們我們部裡面要特別注意"},{"start":572.729,"end":599.473,"text":"本席在這邊一定要說一定要肯定我們部裡面在這次的急難上面的緊急措施但是我還是不禁要提醒這件事情全國都在看之外而且人命關天這次只有在基隆很慶幸的不幸中的大幸只有兩位我們基隆市民受到受到受到輕傷當然也是只有車子在受到一些受到一些損傷財務也沒有損失太多"},{"start":599.853,"end":619.56,"text":"但是畢竟來講像這樣的事情本席比較烏鴉嘴一點可能不會是特例可能慢慢的因為這是大地徵跟地質的改變可能會慢慢變成個通例那這一點來講請交通部跟我們運安會特別要注意這件事情盡量防範於未來越防範於未來越準備越多越好以上謝謝是我們會加強來精進作為是"}]}},{"id":"153689","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153689","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d59ca1c01876f5a0d72248f66a23a11b538282b1d5b897dd1c0300be7979f504765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:07:17 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主席我想請央行我們楊董事長 請楊總裁 楊總裁 總裁早"},{"start":16.103,"end":35.908,"text":"總裁,我們都知道虛擬貨幣是虛擬貨幣它不屬於法定貨幣是不是而且就你先前也說過說它無法調節然後波動價格波動到也沒有球場的管道也非常容易被不法的人士來利用那最近我們委員會常常在討論到"},{"start":37.228,"end":59.406,"text":"尤其我觀察到我們很多的這些傳統的地下會對像這些銀樓或者是業者都是在台灣收在國內收這些台商或者是移工的現金然後就立刻從大陸或者是東南亞的這些戶頭去撥款如果被抓到因為銀行法的罰則很重"},{"start":61.294,"end":88.777,"text":"那所以不消一則現在也趕著流行把這些過去張者直接兌換把它改成用虛擬貨幣用虛擬貨幣所以利用這種虛擬貨幣來做一個乾坤大樓盈假設被查處了被查獲了也會被司法機關認定說不是法定貨幣所以就是這就是一個大漏洞也許因為這樣子他不會被判刑不會被判罪那所以"},{"start":90.828,"end":107.927,"text":"﹗"},{"start":111.343,"end":125.199,"text":"我想就是說就是說委員剛剛在講到就是說這個會對的問題啦那基本上就是說我們不要就是說只說看那個會對啦"},{"start":127.108,"end":150.796,"text":"如果說就這個跨境的移轉你用這個虛擬通貨的話他就比較容易那我跟委員報告就是說像中國大陸中國大陸為什麼說他會禁止這些的虛擬的廠商在那邊挖礦"},{"start":152.267,"end":172.796,"text":"主要的也就是說這些呢所以呢那不只是說禁止他挖礦而且呢禁止交易為什麼就是說這個用虛擬通貨來做跨境的一個支付不要就是說是地下會對啦就是這個這個他是很容易啊他是很容易所以他才禁止他"},{"start":174.579,"end":187.3,"text":"所以你說你來詢問我這個問題說實在的我也很難去回答就是說我們要如何來堵住他那當然就是說現在呢"},{"start":188.7,"end":211.364,"text":"要怎麼來管理他現在就重點在於就是說你要如何來管理這些這些的虛擬通貨的這些的業者對啊對啊這個是問題這個就是問題所以才請教總裁因為你在委員會的討論金港會主委都有討論到我們也要求說要盡速把這個專法趕快要報上來現在大家都很著急而且這個"},{"start":218.513,"end":239.514,"text":"造成後面延續衍生出來這些詐騙沒有錯沒有錯沒有辦法去規範委員講的沒有錯對對對好委員講的總裁我再請教日圓持續的貶值創下34年最低點那很多民眾都持續購買日幣因為很多人都喜歡到日本去旅遊"},{"start":240.034,"end":257.842,"text":"到目前為止已經大概回復到疫情前大概八成以上那今年已經有420萬超過420萬的這個台灣的這個國人到日本去旅遊那總消費金額已經超過新台幣1635億超越中國也超越韓國居冠這個龍頭的地位"},{"start":265.706,"end":288.315,"text":"我相信今年的數據一定會比去年更高甚至於說現在很多坊間不曉得各位有沒有聽過一個笑話說公司要招待員工旅遊可是老闆就跟員工宣布說我們原來安排的肯丁國旅取消了因為去日本反而比較便宜"},{"start":289.736,"end":316.63,"text":"所以現在變成說在去日本住三個晚上的房間價格比在台灣國旅的飯店價格還便宜吃得好風景又漂亮買又很好買那所以現在這種狀況說日圓持續貶值造成我們國文他們的這個觀光收益日本觀光收益的增加相對台灣觀光收益的減少還有就是我們台灣的產業"},{"start":318.391,"end":325.382,"text":"我們的這個手工具這個工具業在在這個"},{"start":329.417,"end":351.75,"text":"我手上的資料工具機在台灣跟日本的差異性過去日本的工具機的價格大概高過台灣會有大概20到30%那所以台灣的這些工具機產業會有他的生存空間那但是因為現在因為日圓持續貶值所以"},{"start":353.393,"end":379.989,"text":"日本的這些台灣的高階機種的訂單都被日商搶光了那中低階的部分又被大陸給搶光了那台灣的機械工會也指出說過去這個利基以及這個在市場上可以去依賴的這些空間都不見了那目前價格幾乎跟日本的"},{"start":381.161,"end":393.824,"text":"金融一致的台灣的工具機價格跟日本金融一致那日圓如果持續再繼續貶值那台灣的工具機產業失去了競爭的優勢在這樣子的一個劣勢的情況之下"},{"start":395.038,"end":421.884,"text":"總裁我們要怎麼樣才能夠去協助工具機的這個產業還有我們這個國內旅遊國旅的產業對啦我跟委員報告啦對啦工具機他長久以來他也都是會一直提到就是說匯率的問題但是我們在這個我們的報告裡面我們也一直在強調事實上工具機的那個什麼他的出口的興衰"},{"start":423.024,"end":437.346,"text":"主要還是跟全球的那個什麼的經濟比較有關係我跟委員報告事實上日本跟台灣很大一部分的工具機的一個出口很大一部分是到中國大陸去"},{"start":438.479,"end":460.231,"text":"那中國大陸委員也知道就是說他們目前的一個情況不是很好所以呢日本對中國大陸的一個出口工具機的一個出口減少我們台灣也是減少那剛剛對話委員在講的就是說也沒有錯就是說以往日本的工具機價格是比我們高但是呢"},{"start":461.911,"end":488.52,"text":"現在因為是貶值的一個關係但是我們一直在強調匯率並不是主要的因素主要的還是景氣的關係所以我們在這個報告裡面的第12頁裡我們就已經也有談到了也有談到這一點我們也談到這一點你看看我們在12月這邊我們談到就是說2022年2023年這個是日圓貶的最大你看看它NER貶值貶了8%"},{"start":489.98,"end":505.647,"text":"平均貶的8我們才貶了0.4%但是呢這我們的工具機啊出國我們就說國際需求影響所以台灣工業機出國平均減少2.7%日本工業平均減少3.9%你看它的貶值的弧度"},{"start":511.284,"end":511.485,"text":"8% 我們才0.4%"},{"start":526.144,"end":549.884,"text":"但是我們不能匯率...我跟委員報告就是說基本上我總覺得我們的工具機除了它對匯率以外匯率就是說它是供需來決定但是它對經濟部它也有做一些的建言而且我相信經濟部也有在協助他們"},{"start":551.414,"end":551.854,"text":"李彥秀李委員現場"}]}},{"id":"153688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153688","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d51dfacb85ea3386bdd6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1caa6d9d5be5f1c9245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"09:57:29 - 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這個部分當然我還是希望法務部能夠就這方面的漏洞 這真的是一個漏洞看如何來做一個建制還是那個我們市長 署長說補充一下"},{"start":262.749,"end":289.231,"text":"關於LINE的這個部分如果LINE它本身有投放廣告的話那在我們昨天大院所一讀通過的打砸專法裡面事實上就這一個平台業者他如果投放廣告的話他有相關的留存的義務跟我們跟他調取比較提供的義務所以未來如果相關的平台他有符合廣告業者的規定的話可以用新的打砸專法去調取"},{"start":291.812,"end":308.077,"text":"接下來我再請問我們現在的詐騙案件大多數投資詐騙的網站IP都是在境外所以部長對於這種偵查到若是國外IP的伺服器那我們是不是就都沒有辦法偵查"},{"start":311.321,"end":320.87,"text":"目前這部分會整個就偵辦就會遇到阻礙了是所以如何克服這部分如何克服"},{"start":322.318,"end":339.461,"text":"所以這樣聽起來即便有科技這幾個打法通過好像對這些境外的這些他的機房在境外的或者他是用國外的伺服器聽起來就完全我們沒有辦法去打擊所以委員就問到重點了這就是我們第三條的那個"},{"start":340.362,"end":366.29,"text":"增加網路流量就是網路流量的這些紀錄我們可以做來一個判斷一個分析最後追出這個IP真正的一個幕後的這些的真正的的人所以我們現在即便目前我們在國際間的形式合作有很多的一個管道不管是法務部我們有國際及兩岸法律司調查局有國際這個事務處"},{"start":369.551,"end":391.53,"text":"警政署也有國際組行事警察局也有國際刑警科所以我們這幾個國際的這些相關的跟國外合作的相關單位都沒有辦法對這些來自境外的這些IP去跟國外來請求協助嗎這部分這個比較專業有沒有那個我們警政署"},{"start":394.724,"end":422.08,"text":"那個我們是不是可以先請那個我們市長請問請問跟這個委員報告剛才講到境外的這個網路業者的部分事實上我們昨天打詐專法裡面也通過有一條要求這境外業者要在台灣准落地是他必須要到台灣設置一個法律代表人的一個機制如果他沒有設的話我們必須要高額的行政裁罰去裁罰他透過行政上的管制要求境外的業者在台灣准落地的方式去控管這些境外的業者"},{"start":422.56,"end":449.685,"text":"那至於司法互助的部分當然我們國家可以透過正式的司法互助去做請求但在國這個當然是緩不比較速度比較慢透過警政之間的情資交換也是一個途徑去取得相關的情資交換的情資是所以打詐專法裡面已經有相關的對這些有一個行政管制的那如果這樣的話我們警政署這屬於你們的業務吧那未來這個遇到這種情況你們未來要如何執行"},{"start":451.397,"end":470.952,"text":"因為現在碰到境外確實有他的困難就是說這個剛提到VNPA的斷點就是伺服器在國外所以就追不下去那我們現在可以做的第一個就我們知道他這個網路就把他封鎖第二個當然成效不一定就如果我們知道是某一個國家如果我們有駐外聯絡這個"},{"start":472.833,"end":488.803,"text":"我們刑事局有諸外聯絡官或許可以請求協助另外我們現在積極在爭取希望我們能夠增加加入國際刑警組織但是目前這個還在努力當中副組長我覺得我聽起來這方面真的我們目前是碰到困難"},{"start":489.383,"end":490.244,"text":"是是目前還有他的難度"},{"start":513.064,"end":540.844,"text":"是我想我時間的關係我再問最後一個問題我想我們在考慮無論是訂立科技偵查或者通保法我們總是再三考慮不要侵犯人權不要涉及個資不要收集到第三人的資料而且我們昨天的科證法也這個對於說收集到的資料我們除非認為有必要那否則要立即銷毀有必要也要在五年後要銷毀"},{"start":542.205,"end":569.64,"text":"所以法律是定的很嚴謹但是我們看到還是有些人可以輕易的取得這些資料就比如說這個被台北地檢署現在在偵辦的王逸川他就表明了說他對於民眾的個資他掌握的有包含性別年齡足跡數位足跡所以我要問部長他是否就掌握了通訊使用者的資料還有我們的網路流量紀錄"},{"start":571.978,"end":591.258,"text":"依照王一昌他的說法這是他個人的說法那這部分我們不知道他的說法的依據來源不過這個案件現在已經臺北地檢署在偵辦中我相信檢察官會依法來...部長我希望勿忘無重他敢這樣講他今天敢在電視上這樣講"},{"start":593.951,"end":622.237,"text":"一）可見他是真的有這個掌握相關的資料。他說他用膝蓋就可以可想而知就可以去了解這些資料。部長你相信嗎?他這不是在胡說八道嗎?所以部長我在這邊就是說因為已經在偵辦中我要求你勿忘無中。一個人可以膽大妄為在這個電視上說他掌握了這些網路通訊的流量記錄以及使用者的資料。"},{"start":623.977,"end":630.504,"text":"這個很嚴重的事啊所以我希望你勿妄勿縱謝謝因為檢察官一定會依法妥適偵探會參與調查謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d54f5ad60c93214045d6a1f14e6772be7c8282b1d5b897dd1c19ee2b2e751d37cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:48:01 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09:57:25","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:48:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:57:25+08:00","duration":564,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":339,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時48分）謝謝主席，我們有請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長早。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們今天接續要審議的是有關通訊保障及監察法的相關條文修正草案，也是因應我們現在網路詐騙的橫行，境外網路犯罪的情況非常嚴重，所以我們期待能夠透過法律的授權來提供給檢警有效打擊網路犯罪的一個工具。想先就我們院版草案當中，實務上資訊取得的爭議來就教我們部長，在草案的第三條之一第二項當中所規範的通訊使用者資料，從第十一條之一的修訂來看，是檢警自行決定就能夠調取的，我們瞭解是為了要防止詐騙集團用人頭門號來作為一個斷點，但因為調取的程序相當簡單，將來有權力調取的人也會比較多，我想請教，這樣相對低門檻的調取條件，會不會存在被濫用的可能？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我想要調用的前提一定是有對特定的犯罪來做蒐證的，這個是屬於第一步，譬如說我一個被害人被詐團……他有一個手機，就是我這個手機或者這個網路的哪一個email是怎麼樣傳給我的，那我就去報案，因為被騙了去報案，警察第一步一定是去瞭解這email跟這個手機門號使用者的資料嘛！如果說以被害人來講，他非常急，而且警方也非常急迫的情形，或者是一個擄人勒贖的電話，或一個恐嚇的資安的電話，我們是不是還要再經法官保留、要檢方保留，這個一定延誤辦案時機，更何況德國、美國都是不需要法官令狀的，這個也沒有牽扯……這只是基本上的門號的申登資料而已，並不是整個通訊的內容，甚至連數位軌跡都談不上，所以我們認為這部分也不需要再做……所以為什麼要如此的一個規定。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我們擔心會被濫用，因為……"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果濫用……"],["陳委員俊宇：未來調取的人會非常多。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個一定要有個前提，就是要有偵查犯罪的事實……"],["陳委員俊宇：事實存在。"],["鄭部長銘謙：必要性跟關聯性，而不是說我愛怎麼調就怎麼調，如果違反規定的話，我們就用其他法律來處理這樣責任的問題。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外有關我們第三條之一的第三項，網路流量紀錄的部分，看到草案的內容其實對網路的範圍還滿廣的，尤其是我們現在每天可能都透過手機會在網路上留下大量的足跡，所以我想特別對這一項資料的調取，想跟部長您來討論一下，我想先瞭解的是我們檢警在偵辦的過程當中，通常是何種情況下會需要調取這些資料？而希望能夠達到什麼樣的目的來聲請要調閱資料？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是我們有看到數位的……譬如說我們知道門號或者是email這一種的詐騙情形，我們最想要知道就是……因為這個是不明而且有人頭的帳戶、帳號的情形，所以我們希望能夠找出犯嫌的身分，所以我們去追，追IP或是真正背後的身分，我們才有上述溯源，這個就是一個在偵查犯罪最早最早的階段而已，這個在個人隱私這部分的關聯非常小，而且我們前提一定要有個案件，一定要有這個事實認為有必要性跟關聯性，我們才會去做，才調閱這些資料。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那看起來在第十一條之一當中，並沒有特別規範調取網路流量紀錄的對象，只要檢察官認為有必要、有關聯，剛剛部長您也大概說了，都能夠向法院來聲請調取票，但是如果要調取沒有犯罪嫌疑的第三人，是不是應該要有更嚴謹的把關門檻？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我們認為偵查其實是浮動的，一開頭沒辦法確認這個電話的來源或者email的來源，我們實在還沒辦法去很明確的區分這個是不是真的犯嫌或者是第三人，但我想只要我們認為這個對案件的偵辦是必要性且有關聯性，雖然要調這個通聯網路流量紀錄部分有法官保留，我想法官也會對我們的聲請做審酌，所以我認為在這邊的保護是夠。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，部長，我想請教的就是說，如果今天使用的是VPN上網，這個應該也有涉及到境外的部分，我們還能夠追蹤得到這些紀錄嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個VPN是一個虛擬的私人網絡，其實裡面都是加密的，它就是一個加密的中轉站，把真實的IP隱藏起來，然後另外再開一條加密的途徑，當然這個部分就會增加我們辦案的困擾，如果說我們這邊有一個網路流量紀錄的這些數位軌跡，我們可以試圖去做一個突破。比較詳細的部分屬於執行面，是不是可以請警政署針對執行面來做一個說明？"],["陳委員俊宇：沒關係，這個部分後續我再請教警政署，針對VPN的部分有沒有辦法有其他方式可以來突破。","以現代人的生活型態來看，上網的時間應該都遠過於通話的時間，對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說的，對於打擊犯罪有其必要，但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊，所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎，避免涉及到、侵犯個人隱私這方面的問題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外我想請教的就是對於AI應用的部分，因為近期的熱門搜索關鍵字就是AI，我想跟部長來討論一下，這幾天我們整個新聞、社群、媒體，甚至百工百業都在討論AI，不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢討論到AI在臺灣的發展趨勢，或是今天來隔壁委員會備詢的國防部長報告當中也提及到AI在軍事上的應用，過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的輔助應用，對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足、工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解、舒緩這個壓力，甚至在過去法務部也曾經以科技化的法務部自詡，不過對於實際的應用成效，目前我們所知的資訊也都只是比較片段一些，我想請教部長，我們各部會都在積極部署AI在相關業務的應用，法務部也已經使用過一段時間的AI應用，目前看來使用的成效如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，目前法務部的AI計畫已經完成了跟警方的介接，這部分基本上可以用於，譬如說詐團的幫助犯、人頭帳戶詐欺的附表或是酒駕這部分，可以用AI做一個處理，而且可以帶入警詢的筆錄，這個已經在臺中跟桃園來試辦了，我們希望下半年能擴大到臺北跟新北，希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔，謝謝委員關心。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，因為我相信智慧AI將會是未來的趨勢，我們現在在全臺只有四個縣市的地檢署有在試辦AI的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：今年年底就要到四個了。"],["陳委員俊宇：就是臺北、新竹、苗栗跟臺南嘛，未來是不是有可能遍及到每一個縣市都能夠普及使用？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們希望，如果試辦的效果更好，我們會整個全部普及來使用，我們是很期待。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那就期待法務部來努力，看能不能儘早部署完成。以上，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝鄭部長。","接下來請林委員思銘發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.63159375,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.84659375,"end":42.049718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.471593750000004,"end":51.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.80346875,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.11596875000001,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.97096875000001,"end":87.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.37596875,"end":174.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.34909375000001,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.39346875,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.87971875000002,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.22534375,"end":160.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.37221875,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.16409375,"end":174.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.75471875000002,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.94034375,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":176.2059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破那因為以現代人的這個生活型態來看上網的時間應該都遠過於這個通話的時間"},{"start":409.413,"end":429.443,"text":"那對於調取網路流量的紀錄也誠如剛剛部長您說了對於這個打擊犯罪有其必要但也因為我們每天會在網路上留下大量資訊所以對此還是需要更加的謹慎避免這個涉及到這個侵犯到個人的隱私的這個方面的問題謝謝委員"},{"start":431.064,"end":446.649,"text":"那另外我想請教就是對於AI應用的部分那因為近期這個熱門的搜索關鍵字就是AI我想跟部長您來討論一下這幾天我們整個新聞社群媒體甚至百公百業都在討論這個AI不管是昨天經濟部長來備詢"},{"start":449.85,"end":477.361,"text":"討論到這個AI在台灣的發展趨勢那現在在隔壁的這個國防部長報告當中也提及到這個AI在軍事上的應用那過去在本委員會裡面也曾經討論到AI的這個輔助應用對於現在司法體系遇到人力不足工作量過大的時候能夠有所幫助或是紓解紓緩這個壓力甚至在過去我們法務部也曾經以這個科技化的法務部自詡"},{"start":478.393,"end":499.987,"text":"不過對於實際的這個應用成效目前我們所知的這個資訊也都只是這個比較片段一些我想請教部長就是我們各部會都在積極部署AI的業務上應用那法務部也有使用這個一段時間的這個AI的這個應用了那目前看來使用的成效如何?"},{"start":501.308,"end":527.089,"text":"謝謝委員目前我們法務部的AI計劃已經完成了跟警方的一個借接了那這部分基本上可以用那個譬如說詐團的那個幫助人頭贓戶的詐欺的一個付表或酒駕這一部分那可以用AI來做一個處理而且可以帶入警訊的一個筆錄那這個已經在台中跟桃園來試辦了那我們希望下半年能夠擴大到台北跟新北那希望能夠減輕檢察官的工作負擔那謝謝委員關心"},{"start":530.532,"end":545.858,"text":"好因為智慧AI我相信這是未來的一個趨勢啊那我們現在在全台只有4個縣市的地檢署有在試辦這個AI的這個這個今年年底交到4個對在台北新竹苗栗跟台南嘛齁那未來是不是有可能"},{"start":545.998,"end":546.459,"text":"二、繼續併案審查"}]}},{"id":"153686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b62cfd0ba31e525479f99d17e212a4188282b1d5b897dd1c11ba3abc993e12c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:01:48 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齊柏林導演應該有很好的交情那他拍這部電影最主要也看到臺灣的好臺灣的美"},{"start":246.38,"end":270.82,"text":"那也有台灣這個環境被破壞的一面那很難得就是說部長你原本在民間那現在可以在這個環境部當部長應該也可以做一些事情所以我們希望就是說部長你在這個位置上應該要發揮你的影響力那讓整個台灣不論是在環境上能夠有一些改變我覺得最基本的這個垃圾的問題應該要去做一個解決"},{"start":271.38,"end":293.092,"text":"好謝謝委員的鼓勵這個我跟齊柏林是真的是好朋友他過世的那個前幾天的記者會我還去參加做到後面結果隔兩天他就失事了我是到現在為止都還蠻那個這個就覺得您提到這個就感受非常的強那他其實拍了很多這個垃圾山那也跟委員報告因為我最近其實都有去"},{"start":299.254,"end":318.578,"text":"我會花時間去看看委員提到的這個臨近學校的地方我們有沒有更好的方法來處理但是整個粉化爐的量能夠提升出來支持他們這才是現在我們可以用的方法那未來我們就資源回收促進法這個如果說資源循環促進法如果可以把它完成的話應該環境部扛起責任來"},{"start":319.378,"end":336.139,"text":"會更有效果,所以我們希望年底如果可以這一次草案預告的話明年如果送到大院來處理的話應該會更有效部長我想請教就是說之前那個環團有拜位這個行政院陳情就是"},{"start":337.36,"end":358.712,"text":"表示,源頭減量的預算不足,造成廢棄物越積越多的最主要原因。環境部當時又回應,補助地方的源頭減量的經費,當時可能沒有被環團記錄,才會讓源頭減量的預算看起來好像不多,也承諾明年源頭減量的預算會增加。"},{"start":363.055,"end":386.087,"text":"那我看到就是說你們有講說資源循環促進法在年底就會送進這個立法院草案預告希望明年可以送進來那如果草案預告是在這個明年你是說明年今年年底就可以開始來送到大院來審好那這樣子你明年的預算要怎麼增加"},{"start":388.259,"end":416.549,"text":"其實我們現在已經開始要針對明年的預算對現在開始要針對明年的預算要省了嗎那你這樣子的話你明年的這個源頭減量的預算要怎麼增加那各位報告就是我們在戰略部分有些相關的譬如說要再使用啊修復或者循環採購這些都有在同時推動那因為促進法的話可以讓我們跟各部會還有我們要去要求業者做一些規定那更能有強制力也能夠建立一些制度"},{"start":417.79,"end":435.422,"text":"我想請部長因為其實很多的政策只要是環境部有在推動其實地方也會跟著配合就像之前我們一直在講的這個減塑膠、減塑那還有一個是那個禁用那個塑膠吸管"},{"start":435.922,"end":436.042,"text":"黃秀芳"},{"start":457.631,"end":474.401,"text":"中央的推動跟地方民眾是不是會去配合其實我覺得有很大息息相關就像之前我們一直在說禁用這個塑膠吸管可是民眾他自己就會知道說那我以後可能就要用那個鐵那個鋼的那種吸管或者是用那種紙吸管甚至用那種"},{"start":475.842,"end":476.902,"text":"請部長你再回應一下"},{"start":503.19,"end":527.692,"text":"其實現在都是在不斷的有時間都會拜訪地方的縣市首長啦希望變成是一個策略夥伴的關係那剛剛這個源頭講那個部分其實我有注意到有些縣市的確是非常認真啦但有些縣市他可能重心不大一樣所以我們會環境部應該會齊一步調啦像我們昨天弄淹地的活動幾乎所有的縣市環保局就全部都來了所以我們會在這個部分會再努力加強"},{"start":528.553,"end":551.498,"text":"好那我也感謝就是部長你有從這個最小我們剛剛講的那個淹地其實那個也是很有感可能我們如果可以設一個譬如說在公共場合設一個吸菸室它吸菸地不要亂丟或者是在一些公園或者是在公的這個場所設吸菸室或者是那個菸地的那種回收的"},{"start":551.998,"end":552.758,"text":"國際社會福利及衛生環境部長"},{"start":572.063,"end":598.569,"text":"所以我覺得說真的源頭減量真的非常的重要那另外就是說我們講剛剛講的這個生活習慣的改變可能這個網購網購的生活習慣改變那可能會收到這個紙你買的東西可能包裝紙盒紙箱真的都非常的多那這樣子是不是也要鼓勵業者就是用回收箱好像這個回收箱好像好像也不是"},{"start":599.349,"end":601.833,"text":"我們會來主動來跟他們來聊聊天說看怎麼樣幫忙這些創新的方式"},{"start":615.233,"end":632.823,"text":"好那這個就再拜託拜託部長那我們希望就是說台灣真的好山好水真的需要大家一起努力然後我們也拜託部長在新的這個剛上來之後這個總是新人有一些新的魄力新的氣象所以我們一起努力謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言謝謝部長的回應"}]}},{"id":"153685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153685","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d553769fd2cf6ccc95f3bd234b5abfe8c98282b1d5b897dd1ca44382e63844f4285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:05:34 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10:10:44","影片長度":"00:13:51","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:56:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:10:44+08:00","duration":831,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":204,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時56分）謝謝召委，有請李遠部長、彭富源署長以及原民會的邱文隆副處長一起上來，好嗎？"],["主席：李部長、彭署長、邱副處長。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。首先我就教於李部長，政府從111年7月為期5年的時間投入321億推動國家語言整體發展方案，我們希望能夠改善各種國家語言瀕臨失傳的危機，並且推展各個國家語言的文化、歷史跟它的美。但是經過2年的推行，我想在實務上遇到了一些問題，非常值得文化部、教育部以及原民會大家共同來討論，看到問題、解決問題！","根據國家語言發展報告當中指出，原住民語（16族、42語別）、平埔族、國語、臺灣閩南語、客語，還有閩東語、臺灣手語等等，我們有這麼多種國家語言的範疇跟種類在裡面，但是為什麼現在我們舉辦的民眾認證考試只有客語、閩南語跟原住民語，那其他的部分我們都沒有打算這麼做，部長可以回答嗎？"],["李部長遠：這個部分我真的不太懂，請那個……"],["萬委員美玲：沒關係。"],["李次長靜慧：不好意思，在認證的部分的確像剛剛委員講的，目前就是客語、原住民語跟台語，至於其他語言的認證，包括手語或者是馬祖語，在認證的部分他們團體認為還沒有辦法制定一個所謂認證的標準，可是並不是不做，還在研議中。"],["萬委員美玲：我希望這個研議要有一點進度，不能因為現在沒有做我們就一直放在那邊，用研議去取代了我們不做，好不好？","部長還有彭署長，我們從閩南語認證考試制度的部分來觀察一下，我們的本土語言課程其實在……這個可能跟彭署長有關，就是在111年我們納入了部定課程，我們看一下時間，依據110年跟111年的認證考試報告，我們看一下到考率還有通過認證人數來做比較，可以很明顯看到，有受過部定課程教育影響的大概是在7歲到18歲的學生族群，但是有關他參與認證的人數、到考、通過，其實這兩年來都是不升反降！這個數據在這裡，到考的下降人數、報考人數跟通過人數等數據都在上面，我不再贅述，我們可以看一下。","你說這是110年到111年，據本席瞭解，112年我們有做一些認證制度上面的調整，今天我雖然沒有把這個表列出來，但是我們看到112年認證的地方，本席看到的數據上是這樣，我們雖然把它分成2次來進行、報考人數也大大地提升，但是112年跟前面2年來比較，不管是報考率、通過率其實還是逐年在下降、沒有提升，這是第一個；第二個，我們發現反而是有參與本土語言部定課程的這群學生們，他在認證上面這些數據都比沒有參加過部定課程相關教育的30歲到60歲族群低非常多，這個數據我也請部長這邊可以稍微看一下。","我特別想提一下，我們看到110年的部分，我剛剛提到30歲到60歲的報名人數、通過人數都比7到18歲來得多，通過人數在110年是1,382人，但是111年這個差距擴大到2,276人。所以我們看到，當我們把本土語言納入課程之後，並沒有在這個族群裡頭增加，這是什麼原因啊？署長。"],["彭署長富源：我請承辦單位說明。"],["萬委員美玲：很少有彭署長不會回答的問題耶！"],["彭署長富源：這個問題我先請同仁說明。"],["萬委員美玲：好。"],["顏副司長寶月：我跟委員報告一下，為了要擴大我們學生族群能夠參加閩南語認證，我們從112年首次開了2次的閩南語認證機制，我們在A卷部分其實也發現……A卷的部分因為滿多是學生去參與的，我們也透過很多的獎勵機制希望鼓勵更多的孩子來參加閩南語認證……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有！我這樣講，我們講結論喔，大家的努力其實我都有看到，也予以肯定，但我們要用結果論來推，我們在努力的方向上有沒有需要調整跟加強嘛。所以在112年有調整制度，我們看到整個報考人數是有往上，尤其剛剛說的部定版課程的這些7到18歲的族群，可是報名1萬4,711個人，最後通過的只有5,148人，從通過率和到考率看起來大概不到五成；但是沒有受過部定教育課程的族群占30%到60%，反而到考率及通過率都可以高達八成多。我想這個數據我們要去看一看，既然本土語言課程納入部定課程裡面去了、孩子們都有去學習了，何以成效拉不起來？我覺得要去思考這件事。我希望會後教育部這邊看是誰負責的，給我一個報告，這個報告同時也是我們大家可以去研討，看以後怎麼去做改進嘛！","從這個數據，本席要講的是什麼？我想請李部長一起。也就是說，雖然我們把本土語言課程納入部定課程範圍內，可是成效卻沒有提升，原因是什麼？其實本席認為，語言這種東西環境很重要，環境非常重要！我自己是在眷村長大的，雖然我的爸爸是江西過來的老兵，我媽媽是雲林人，我們眷村裡面大部分都是爸爸外省人，媽媽各省、各地都有，臺南、彰化、雲林都有，但是那個時代背景我們都不太講台語。我記得我還沒有出社會之前，台語一個字都聽不懂，因為我覺得我也用不到，然後從小的生長環境也沒有，後來是我開始接觸選舉以後，我記得我還鬧一個笑話，我去謝票，我跟大家說：多謝、多謝，這次選「鬼（kui）」的時候，你有幫忙支持我。然後他們就一直看著我：「選鬼」？我沒選「鬼」，我選的是人啊！所以我才知道不是選「鬼」。請問部長，是選什麼？"],["李部長遠：是選「舉（ki）」。"],["萬委員美玲：對嘛！你要教我，對不對？","接下來我又說：多謝、多謝，你們大家都是我的「庄跤（tsng-kha、鄉下）」。什麼「庄跤」啦！不對！他們說是什麼「咖」？是「柱仔跤」（thiāu-á-kha、樁腳）！所以我後來發現其實台語的文化非常美、語言也非常美，但是過去我沒有那個環境。今天我舉這樣的例子就是說，我們做了很多努力，但是部長，我想這個跟文化有很大的關係，我們要怎麼去營造這個環境，讓不管是台語、閩南語也好，或者是很多我們要保護的各種國家語言，要怎麼樣有這個環境？部長有想法嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實委員說得很對，我如果站在我的孫子跟孫女的學校外面接他們的時候，已經很多人走出來是跟父母親講英語的，我真的嚇一跳，因為現在的父母親、更年輕的那一代，他們的孩子完全進入講英語的狀態，這種情況其實……"],["萬委員美玲：這也是本席下一題要講的，其實本土語言和雙語有沒有產生競合的關係，這個部分等一下也要跟教育部來談。","部長，簡單來講，我們希望文化部去思考一下，教育部也去想一想，我們怎麼創造這個環境，我覺得這比納入課程更重要。","此外，文化部對於國家語言發展，112年編列了17.25億，113年編列了17.19億，但是執行狀況很差，用不完啊，錢好像給太多了！112年有一成多沒有用完，113年到現在為止才用不到四分之一，時間過了四分之一，可是預算用不了那麼多。既然預算編了，是不是應該好好地使用，讓它發揮最大的效益？這點請部長回頭去看一下文化部的預算執行發生什麼樣的問題。","接下來我想請教一下邱文隆副處長，我們現在除了閩南語認證少之外，原住民語的認證同樣有這個問題，就是參與人數包括通過人數、報考人數其實都是在逐年下降的。我們現在在推行原住民語言認證，但是不是師資不足還是環境有問題，為什麼越推人越少？原住民語有42個語別，文化部2023年的報告指出，聯合國教科文組織說臺灣有5種語言被評為極度危險，賽夏語、魯凱語是嚴重危險，另外有9種語言是脆弱等級，一再顯示原住民有許多語言可能會瀕臨失傳，這個問題非常嚴重，您怎麼看？"],["邱副處長文隆：報告委員，第一個，認證的部分確實我們希望再多鼓勵更多的人參加，因為我們現在是四級到五級的認證，每年辦理2次，如何讓族人更加認識認證制度的測驗方式和內容，我們已經責請原文會讓族人更加認識，才知道怎麼報考。第二……"],["萬委員美玲：好，這一點我想我把問題點出來，請副處長回去仔細研究一下好不好？"],["邱副處長文隆：好。"],["萬委員美玲：最後還有一題，需要一點時間，就是教育部從111學年實施本土語言課程，但是大家都發現師資不足這件事情很嚴重。111學年度不管是職前培育、學士後教育學分班或第二專長學分班，實際招收的學生數都低於核定數，這個問題其實滿嚴重的，而且本席把相關師資統計列表，發現除了閩南語有1萬4,993老師跟教支人員，客語有5,305位，原住民語只有2,075位，臺灣手語更是只有1,233位，閩東語只有69位，師資上今天我聽署長說其實算是夠的，可是根據這個統計表，是不是都集中在閩南語和客語的部分？其實客語也不算夠啦！所以師資方面應該怎麼樣讓它都能夠足夠、都能夠均衡？否則是不是大家在其他更少數的語言當中就比較少有學習的機會？這是一個。第二個，今天署長也有講到：沒有啊！我們除了現場教學之外，還有直播共學啊！但是你我心裡都知道，直播共學的效果其實沒有那麼好。因此怎麼樣去補救這個部分？署長能不能說明一下？"],["彭署長富源：首先跟委員報告一下，師資夠是全縣市，各縣市每個學校都去盤點，所以我們不是看總數而已，也要看各地、各校，這是第一個。第二個，直播共學的效果我們會分兩個面向來講，第一個，直播共學要撮合、媒合的老師數量跟相關的教材還有相關增能，我們會持續努力；第二個，學校端這邊陪同的支援老師，現場的老師可能他在指導上也一起共學、共成長跟共備，知道老師要教學的內涵，才能夠在班級中營造一個共同指導孩子的方向。這個我們會處理。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們繼續加強多面向啦！","最後請主席再給我1分鐘的時間，因為這個問題是我們李部長的問題，也是很多爸爸、媽媽、阿公、阿嬤的問題，也就是說，我們現在孩子算幸福嗎？也幸福；算辛苦嗎？也辛苦。如果我們要在國語和其他相關語言，包括我們剛剛說的很多本土語言，然後還有現在英語政策也要上路了，現在已經不是雙語了，孩子們是要學習多語，剛才也有提到，其實雙語政策的上路會不會排擠我們的本土語言？這是第一個問題。第二個，我們看到教育部編列的預算當中，從111年到113年，在本土語言投入46.8億，但是在雙語政策總共投入了110億，所以預算投入是相當不均等的，怎麼樣做才不會產生剛剛李遠部長說的他跟他孫子的狀況？"],["彭署長富源：第一點，在課程上大家都有自己的時數，我們特別排了必修的本土語言時數，所以時數上它是被保障的；第二個是它投入的資源，上次也跟委員報告，雙語那邊會多了一點，是各地方需要有外語的資源，外語師資這樣的一個資源占了滿大的成分。但事實上就投資面向，從課程、教學、教師、教材等相關的因應上，這兩個語言都非常受到行政院還有總統的高度重視。謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：好。我最後要講，我希望在本土語言上，尤其我們每一種語言真的都非常美，都有它深厚的文化歷史背景，怎麼樣去均衡？不要在雙語政策上路之後產生競合關係，甚至消滅了本土語言，我希望教育部和文化部會後要常常橫向聯繫，把我們的語言政策真正發展到均衡完整，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭署長富源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，部長請回。","接下來請柯志恩召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 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{"start":278.688,"end":280.57,"text":"我們要用結果論來推我們在努力的方向上有沒有需要調整跟加強嗎"},{"start":299.648,"end":327.881,"text":"雖然112年我們有調整那個制度但是我們看到整個報考的人數是有往上尤其剛剛說的布定版課程的這些族群7到18歲可是他報名14711個人最後通過只有5148人我們的通過率跟倒考率看起來也大概不到五成但是我們沒有受過布定教育課程的這個族群30到60反而我們報考率、倒考率以及通過率都可以高達八成多"},{"start":328.901,"end":351.181,"text":"我想這個數據我們要去看一看我們既然本土語言課程納入了這個布定的課程裡面去了孩子們都有去學習了何以這個成效拉不起來我覺得要去思考這件事我希望會後教育部這邊誰負責的給我一個報告那這個報告同時也是我們大家可以去研討以後怎麼去做改進那從這個數據上來本期要講的是什麼我想跟李部長一起"},{"start":351.881,"end":366.837,"text":"就是說我們雖然把這個本土語言課程納入了這個不定課程範圍內可是沒有提升原因是什麼其實本席認為語言這種東西環境很重要環境會非常重要那我想其實像本席我自己是這個在眷村長大"},{"start":368.258,"end":383.971,"text":"雖然我的爸爸江西過來的老兵我媽媽是雲林人我們眷村裡面大部分都是爸爸外省人媽媽各省人台南、彰化雲都有但是那個時代背景我們都不太講台語我記得我還沒有出社會之前台語我一個字都聽不懂"},{"start":384.411,"end":405.998,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":411.175,"end":431.16,"text":"謝謝 謝謝 大家都是我的政客 什麼政客 他說什麼客 廖仔客 所以台語會有發現 其實這個文化其實非常美 語言也非常美 但是過去我沒有那個環境 所以今天我舉這樣的例子就是說 我們做了很多努力 但是部長"},{"start":431.88,"end":442.67,"text":"我想這個跟文化有很大的關係我們要怎麼去營造這個環境讓不管是台語、閩南語也好或者是很多的這個我們要保護的國家語言的種類怎麼樣這個環境部長有想法嗎"},{"start":445.062,"end":460.993,"text":"議員,你說得很對。我如果站在我的孫子跟孫女的學校接他的時候,已經很多人走出來是跟父母親講英文了,講英語,我真的嚇一跳。因為現在的父母親,更年輕的一代,他讓孩子完全進入"},{"start":462.374,"end":479.649,"text":"講英語的狀態這也是本席下一題要來講的就是說其實本土語言跟雙語有沒有產生競合的關係等一下要跟教育部這邊也要來談所以部長我想我們簡單來講我們希望文化部以後去思考一下教育部想一想我們怎麼創造這個環境比納入課程我覺得更重要"},{"start":480.23,"end":481.471,"text":"再來我想這個部長我想這個文化部對於國家語言發展112年編列了17.25億113年編列了17.19億但是我們看到執行的狀況很差用不完錢好像給太多了"},{"start":497.589,"end":518.71,"text":" 112年,這個也還一成多沒有用完。113年呢,到現在為止用也不到四分之一。時間過了四分之一,然後我們的預算用不了那麼多。我想我們現在預算冰了,是不是應該要好好的使用,讓它發揮到最大的效益。那這點請部長回頭的時候去看一下這個預算執行發生什麼樣的問題。那接下來我想我請教一下邱文龍副處長。"},{"start":519.711,"end":538.803,"text":"我們現在除了閩南語認證少之外原住民的認證同樣有這個問題就是說這個參與人數、通過人數、報考人數其實都是逐年在下降的那我想我們現在在推行這個原住民語的認證但是是不是失智不足還是環境有問題為什麼越推人越少"},{"start":539.764,"end":558.795,"text":"根據原住民語言我們看起來42個語列文化部2023自己的報告指出聯合國科文組織說臺灣有5種語言被評為極度危險塞夏語、盧凱語是嚴重危險另外有9種語言是脆弱等級這一再顯示原住民有許多語言可能會瀕臨四川這個問題非常嚴重副總長怎麼看?"},{"start":563.927,"end":564.128,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":584.008,"end":612.86,"text":"好 這一點我想這樣我把問題點出來請副部長回去我們仔細研究一下好不好那最後因為還有一題需要一點時間就是我想也請教一下我想教育部啊從111學年就是我剛剛提到我們實施本土語課程嘛那但是呢我們發現師資不足這件事情大家都發現很嚴重那在111學年度不管是在職培育學士後教育學分班還有第二專長學分班我們看到實際招收的學生數都低於合定數"},{"start":614.341,"end":621.867,"text":"這個問題其實蠻嚴重的而且呢本席把他的這個式子列了一下我們除了閩南語大概有14993位老師跟這個教職人員客語有5305位那原住民語只有2075位臺灣俗語更只有1233閩東語只有69位"},{"start":634.218,"end":654.032,"text":"所以實質上今天我聽署長講說其實算夠的但我們看到是不是都集中在這個閩南語跟客語的部分其實客語也不算夠啦所以實質上面我們應該怎麼樣讓它都能夠足夠都能夠均衡否則是不是我們大家在其他更少數的語言當中我們就比較減少了去學習的機會那這是一個那第二個剛剛其實署長也有講到說"},{"start":657.534,"end":657.754,"text":"蘇黨能不能說明一下?"},{"start":669.912,"end":689.121,"text":"首先跟委員報告一下十字構我們是全縣 全縣市各縣市每個學校都去盤點所以我們這個不是看總數而已也看各地各校第一個第二個剛才直播共學的效果我們會分兩個面向來講第一個直播共學他要撮合媒合的那個老師這邊的數量"},{"start":690.742,"end":690.822,"text":"好,這我們會處理"},{"start":714.71,"end":731.543,"text":"我們繼續加強多面向啦那最後我想再給我一分鐘的時間喔因為這個問題啊是我們這個李部長的問題也是很多爸爸媽媽阿公阿嬤的問題喔那也就是說我們現在孩子其實算幸福嗎也幸福算辛苦嗎也辛苦喔"},{"start":731.963,"end":750.939,"text":"如果我們要在國語還有其他的相關語言包括我們剛剛說的很多的本土語言然後還有我們現在英語政策也要上路了那現在已經不是雙語了孩子們要學習多語那剛才也有提到其實雙語政策的上路會不會排擠我們的本土語言這是第一個問題第二個"},{"start":752.64,"end":767.154,"text":"我們看到教育部編列的預算當中111年到113年本土語言投入46.8億但雙語政策我們已經總共投入了110億所以光預算投入是相當不均等的那怎麼樣做才不會產生剛剛李遠部長跟他孫子的狀況"},{"start":771.471,"end":795.633,"text":"剛剛第一點在課程上大家都有自己的時數所以我們特別有排了必修的本土的那個時數所以時數上他是被保障的第二個他投入的這個資源委員上次也跟您報告雙語那邊會多了一點是各地方需要有外語這樣的一個資源那外語實質這樣的一個資源他們佔了滿大的一個成分但事實上就"},{"start":796.414,"end":798.636,"text":"我最後講我希望在我們本土語言上尤其真的我們的每種語言都非常的美都有它身後的文化歷史背景怎麼樣去均衡"},{"start":817.29,"end":817.31,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5670a24e94f69df822248f66a23a11b538282b1d5b897dd1c5ffaa6d71c87aaa95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:57:02 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10:07:09","影片長度":"00:10:07","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:57:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T10:07:09+08:00","duration":607,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時56分）謝謝主席。有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁早。總裁，日幣持續貶值，臺幣會跟著升還是貶？其實我們知道，臺灣近期出口景氣是非常好的，而臺幣會升還是會貶，影響到我們整體社會的通膨，在這裡我們要請教總裁，如果今天新臺幣不得不跟隨其他東南亞的幣值競爭的時候，我們有什麼手段可以降低或是避免不必要的衝擊呢？總裁，有沒有什麼樣的手段？"],["楊總裁金龍：你是說，我們如果沒有跟它一同貶值，我們要如何來維持我們的競爭力，是不是這個意思？"],["賴委員惠員：對，沒有錯。"],["楊總裁金龍：直覺上我只能跟委員報告，除了生產力提高，還有品質好，大概是這樣子，還有就是marketing的部分……"],["賴委員惠員：我在講的是央行的政策，央行有沒有什麼手段？"],["楊總裁金龍：央行政策是沒有，因為我們只管匯率啊。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你們還是堅持主張央行是不會去干預匯率的升還是貶，是不是這樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，基本上雖然我們也會看其他幣別的升貶怎麼樣，我們是看而已，但主要還是要看個別的供需、市場的秩序怎麼樣，如果我們覺得說怎麼會這樣子，怎麼會進來那麼多、會出去那麼多？而且是在很短期間，這樣的話，中央銀行的職責是維持市場的秩序。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：維持市場的秩序是什麼意思呢？就是讓我們新臺幣匯率的升貶波動幅度不要太高，也不要太低，因為太高的話，我們的廠商要怎麼樣報價？"],["賴委員惠員：好。總裁，就是說你會堅持不主動干預……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，要看市場的情況。"],["賴委員惠員：可是你會維持一個非常好的，就是有關匯率的匯動，你會去維持一個最好的狀況。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員惠員：可是如果這個貶值或是提升的時候，會不會影響到我們整體社會的通膨？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，這個我們的報告也有講到，就是基本上從2022年一直到2023年，日本也好、南韓，還有我們臺灣也一樣，還有新加坡，這些你看它之所以會干預，它也是在concern，除了剛剛我跟委員報告的，就是它的匯率波動太大，不好，對金融的穩定不好……"],["賴委員惠員：當然，總裁，我們都知道。"],["楊總裁金龍：另外一個就是跟您所說的一樣，就是貶得太多也不好，對通膨……你講得沒有錯。"],["賴委員惠員：當然我們知道波動是不好的，我現在講的是央行的態度。誠如昨天經濟部長在經濟委員會宣示經濟部不支持繼續補貼台電，而不再補貼台電，是不是會造成更嚴重的通膨？當然我們很快就聞到了，你不補貼的話，是不是會讓通膨更加地嚴重，會不會呢？你的看法如何？"],["楊總裁金龍：經濟部長他做這樣的主張，我在想他可能……"],["賴委員惠員：會不會嘛？就是不補貼台電的話，台電的電價就是會漲嘛，是不是漲了以後，通膨跟著就上來了？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這樣的推論，好像就是跟前面這一段的期間來推論。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有，我是這樣的一個推論嘛……"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，但是如果……"],["賴委員惠員：通膨會跟著上來。央行在做決策的時候，到底是看誰的數據？你看喔，你們央行的理監事預估CPI會到2.14%，可是主計總處是說只會調升到2.03%，你看，你們比主計總處還悲觀，事實上其實你們也知道，整體而言，加了電價以後CPI會更嚴重。","總裁，我再請教你，通膨到底對一般民眾的影響是大還是小？你要回答我這個問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：通膨對一般民眾的影響是大還是小，我跟委員報告，一般中央銀行看的就是CPI，因為CPI的選項有368項，它的範圍非常廣，因此對於民眾的影響大或是小，基本上我們大部分都是看一個月裡面至少購買一次的……"],["賴委員惠員：購買一次的民生用品它的漲幅。"],["楊總裁金龍：民生用品，還有17項的那個……"],["賴委員惠員：好。總裁，我再跟你請教，本席的選區是農業跟很多的退休人員，如果存款利息趕不上通膨，一般民眾若是靠存款的利息過日子的話，通膨一直漲，一般民眾是不是會想辦法要去投資、去買資產，可是他不一定有錢，所以他可能會舉債，你看臺灣銀行的利率一年期只有1.17%而已，像這樣的話……"],["楊總裁金龍：一年期1.17%？沒有啊！"],["賴委員惠員：1.715%啦，不好意思。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，1.715%。"],["賴委員惠員：這樣的話，這些退休人員怎麼辦呢？所以相對來說，CPI指數如果沒有符合體感，大家都喜歡跟你探討，以房租的指數來做例子，其實我們四周、周邊的人，大家都覺得房租是一直在漲的，這3年的房價也是直直漲，但你告訴我房價跟你們沒有關係，可是怎麼可能沒有關係呢？房租有沒有可能也漲？這個其實一直在漲，我們就用這張圖來反映現實狀況，這個部分要跟總裁來做探討，為什麼漲幅平穩？這一定是有問題的，你們可不可以自己去調查，做一個大數據？因為財政部說，實際租用的房屋租金，私有的房屋才用1,300戶，在這22個縣市，幾乎一個縣市只抽到60戶，這個太離譜了，而社會宅竟然用到1萬6,000戶，這樣的租金抽樣比例真的是有問題，在這裡我想請問總裁，失真的CPI數字是不是會造成央行沒有方向感？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我……"],["賴委員惠員：好，我讓你講。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟你報告，這個統計數據是主計總處根據全國的統計做的，所以你說失真的CPI數據……"],["賴委員惠員：對，所以總裁，我就是要告訴你，它提供給你的……"],["楊總裁金龍：你說沒有方向感的央行，這個我跟委員報告……"],["賴委員惠員：好，央行沒有方向感就是因為主計已經提供不正確的數據給你……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我不是只有看一項租金，沒有。"],["賴委員惠員：你有沒有辦法自己做一個大數據的調查？央行有沒有辦法做？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們可以跟主計總處那個……一個國家的統計有一定的專業單位處理，我們不能說……委員的建議我倒是可以跟主計總處討論看看。"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["楊總裁金龍：看看怎麼處理，就像你說的……"],["賴委員惠員：你是沒有體感的CPI……"],["楊總裁金龍：你說它的數據失真、統計調查有問題，我來跟主計總處討教。"],["賴委員惠員：在這裡拜託總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["賴委員惠員：拜託你們密切注意日幣貶值的現象是不是會造成臺幣異常地升或是貶，並適時提出因應的政策，也希望你們研擬、評估因為通膨造成貨幣政策影響的時候，應該評估應變能力較低的一般民眾真實的應變能力。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：這個是非常重要的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：再來，希望你跟主計總處能夠共同探討，並評估自己做大數據的可行性，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們可以針對這個問題請教它，而且可以跟它討論。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.11534375000000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.73971875,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.67534375,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.337218750000002,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.24346875,"end":41.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.454718750000005,"end":44.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.96471875,"end":61.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.04409375,"end":51.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.87471875000001,"end":56.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.62471875000001,"end":62.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.43471875,"end":66.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.58596875,"end":67.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.07534375,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.72034375,"end":75.64784375}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09:56:52","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:46:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:56:52+08:00","duration":615,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":249,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時46分）主席，有請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：總裁好。總裁，昨天央行有公布外匯存底高達5,728億美元，最近外資持有股票債券的部分也高達7,509億，我記得101年外匯存底突破4,000億的時候，外資占比大概只有55%，現在外資的占比相對於外匯存底來說已經高達131%了，這部分在你的報告書也有提到所謂地緣政治的問題，我想請問一下，關於這一點你有沒有進行任何的壓力測試？"],["楊總裁金龍：所謂的壓力測試，我不曉得委員所謂的壓力測試，你的意思是說如果萬一……"],["郭委員國文：萬一有什麼事情的話。"],["楊總裁金龍：萬一有什麼事情……"],["郭委員國文：對，凡事都要進行壓力測試。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，委員所謂的壓力測試跟我們平常在什麼情況之下會做怎麼樣的一個處理……"],["郭委員國文：對、對，能不能舉一下例子？"],["楊總裁金龍：又在什麼情況下我們會做怎麼樣的處理，這都是一樣的，這是scenario的一個……"],["郭委員國文：最極端的情況之下是什麼情況？"],["楊總裁金龍：請委員允許我，我在國會議堂裡面講極端的話，好像我總覺得……"],["郭委員國文：有難言之隱？"],["楊總裁金龍：有難言之隱，也許……"],["郭委員國文：但就是有壓力測試？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，我跟委員報告，有啦！當然……"],["郭委員國文：你就說有，各種情況的壓力測試，你都在準備當中。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們在什麼情況下……"],["郭委員國文：你有18套的劇本，對喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對，我們在什麼情況、在什麼情況、在什麼情況……"],["郭委員國文：你就是有18套的劇本嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們都會有scenario。"],["郭委員國文：都有劇本、都有因應。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以……"],["郭委員國文：我覺得你要讓國人安心。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們都隨時密切的注意。"],["郭委員國文：怕萬一這個熱錢急流勇退就很麻煩了，而且現在整個外資進來的金額愈來愈高。","另外我關心一下，有關於總體信用管制，我們做很多努力，總共花了5次的信用管制，但5次下來，我不知道總裁的心情有沒有挫折感，你看內政部最近公布的第4季住宅價格指數高達136.2%，連續漲了5年，一來是歷史新高，二來它的交易量也是史上第二高，31.6%是13年來新高、史上第二高，也就是價量齊揚，價量齊揚的結果就是我們總體信用管制失效，講白一點是這樣子啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，如果說……"],["郭委員國文：不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果把價跟量的一個變化，單獨來說是選擇性信用管制……"],["郭委員國文：就結果論嘛！講白一點，我們就結果論英雄。"],["楊總裁金龍：以結果論，我跟委員報告，事實上選擇性信用管制是有效的。"],["郭委員國文：有效？"],["楊總裁金龍：是有效。"],["郭委員國文：如果沒有這樣的話更嚴重，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：這是其中之一，但是另外一個……"],["郭委員國文：總裁，你既然講得這麼有信心、講有效，但有效的程度到哪裡？我承認不會沒有效，老實講我不會說沒有效，但是效果沒有達到壓制價跟量的結果，這是事實嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員……"],["郭委員國文：量還是一直升，價還是一直揚，這是事實嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟……"],["郭委員國文：量升價揚、量價齊漲，結果就是這樣子，我相信你有效果，如果沒有管制的話可能會更嚴重，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員如果這麼說也可以。"],["郭委員國文：原因在哪裡？對不對？以前一整年的儲蓄都超過3兆，今年預估超過4.21兆，今年第一季就超過1.5兆，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：問題出在哪裡？總裁，所以問題出在哪裡？我們來想一想，是不是我們的力道有所不足？我再讓你看一下房價暴漲的狀況，臺北部分在2020年跟2024年比較起來已經快到119萬了，118.58萬！進位法就119萬了，你去看看有沒有？臺北的漲幅還比較少，漲幅最多是新竹縣市，高達88.3%，總體而言是49.5%，總共大概5%。網路上最常提到的，當然你說不要針對個別產業來做所謂的利率調整，可是網路上最常提到的，謝金河也這樣講，長期的低利率是造成房價的元兇，你6月13號就要討論了，剛剛還有委員說你是不是暗示降息，你剛剛說降息，美國之所以會降息的原因是因為景氣下修，臺灣的景氣現在有下修嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，那降息的理由在哪裡？對不對？臺灣的股價、臺灣的房價漲成這樣子，總裁還有沒有招？你6月13號有沒有新招？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們6月13號會討論。"],["郭委員國文：你剛才講會討論嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，會討論。"],["郭委員國文：但是你的風向球已經拿出來搖了，你那個測風向的風向草，還不是小草喔！你拿出來測風向、你的風向草已經拿出來了。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：你有兩支風向草，第二支的風向草就不講了，我跟你講第一支的風向草，現在看起來比較有可能的這支風向草是什麼？就是隨著財政部調整豪宅標準，央行是否跟進？財政部之前的豪宅標準，臺北市從7,000萬降為6,000萬，新北市從6,000萬降為4,000萬，新竹、桃中南高從4,000萬降為3,000萬，其他縣市從4,000萬降為2,000萬，依照現在的央行標準是有落差的、一國兩制，我們臺灣財政部跟央行的豪宅標準不同，央行的這個標準何來？本席很難以理解，央行如果設臺北7,000萬、新北6,000萬，然後其他的4,000萬，請問一下，這一題會不會納入討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們都會討論。"],["郭委員國文：都會討論？這一題也會討論嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也會討論。"],["郭委員國文：會討論、慎重討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們會討論。"],["郭委員國文：也是新招之一的可能性？"],["楊總裁金龍：反正是會討論。"],["郭委員國文：好，最後我問你一個問題，林次長您上來一下。總裁，對於你今天的報告，我只有一點沒辦法贊同，結語當中的第一點說「加以近兩年日本貿易帳均為逆差，日圓因而大幅貶值。」倒果為因嘛！這個貿易逆差是長年來都有的事情，怎麼會因此造成日圓貶值？是日圓貶值導致貿易逆差愈來愈嚴重。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我跟委員報告，事實上你說的日本逆差不是一直都是逆差，沒有喔！"],["郭委員國文：我說一直以來的逆差很清楚嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，它沒有一直以來逆差，它是2021年以後才逆差的。"],["郭委員國文：是這幾年才逆差嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：好，那你就告訴我這幾年在逆差的情況底下，我問一下總裁……"],["楊總裁金龍：就是逆差，那逆差很簡單的是說……"],["郭委員國文：我們有長期逆差，我再問一下……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有說長期逆差。"],["郭委員國文：長期逆差對我們是有利於出口沒有錯，但是相對地，我要替民眾問一個問題，日本進口商品、網路代購的藥妝、食品，民眾想要問，明明日圓貶值這麼多，為什麼沒有降價？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這是個別商品啦！"],["郭委員國文：幾乎所有的商品都沒有降價！林次長。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：這個是出現什麼問題？照他們的講法，進口進來的半導體相關設備都可以降價，有利出口，那為什麼進口的這些服務商品沒有降價？次長，能不能給本席一個答案？"],["林次長全能：我沒有特別深入研究，不過應該是有很多元的因素，第一個部分就是可能這個進來的……"],["郭委員國文：你沒有深入研究，本席請你好好去研究一下。"],["林次長全能：我們一定會去尋找最癥結的原因在哪邊，但我個人認為……"],["郭委員國文：對，這是消費者的權益問題啊，明明貶值貶這麼多，難道要去日本買才會便宜，回來臺灣買日本商品就不會便宜？一樣是日圓改成臺幣，哪有這種事情？"],["林次長全能：我向委員報告，我覺得可能在商品的……"],["郭委員國文：臺日之間的對話你有沒有參與？"],["林次長全能：我沒有參與。"],["郭委員國文：你沒有參與，所以是陳正祺在管的？"],["林次長全能：是。"],["郭委員國文：你回去跟陳正祺講一下，跟你們部長講一下。"],["林次長全能：是。"],["郭委員國文：這沒道理嘛！對不對？好不好？"],["林次長全能：好。"],["郭委員國文：總裁，這個部分再麻煩你，對你充滿期待啦，你的新招數。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝總裁，謝謝次長。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.6215937500000001,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.00096875,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.278468750000002,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.324718750000002,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEA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"總裁"},{"start":342.708,"end":371.618,"text":"還沒有招啊?6月13日有沒有新招啊?我想我們6月13日會討論。會討論,你剛才是講會討論嘛。對啦,會討論。但是你的那個風向球已經拿出來搖了啦。你那個測風向的風向草,不是小草喔,你拿出來測風向的風向草已經拿出來了。你的風向草有兩支風向草。第二支的風向草我就不講了。我跟你講一支的風向草。你另外一支,現在看起來比較有可能這一支的風向草啦。"},{"start":372.884,"end":396.669,"text":"這支的風向草是什麼就是隨著財政部調整豪宅標準央行是否跟進財政部之前的豪宅標準7000台北市降為6000新北市6000降為4000新竹桃中南高4000降為3000其他先是4000降為2000"},{"start":399.465,"end":418.397,"text":"按照現在央行標準是有落差的喔是一國兩制的喔我們台灣的財政部跟央行的這個豪宅標準不同央行的這個標準何來這個本席就很難以理解啦央行說7000新北6000然後其他的4000"},{"start":420.49,"end":427.276,"text":"請問一下這一題會不會納入討論我想我們都會討論啊都會討論這一題也會討論嘛我們也會討論會討論嘛慎重討論也是新招之一的可能性反正是會討論反正會討論好最後我問你一個問題那個次長您上來一下"},{"start":441.727,"end":456.247,"text":"總裁對你今天報告我只有一點沒有辦法贊同你就結語當中的第一點說因為加上近兩年日本這個貿易戰均為逆差日圓因而大幅貶值"},{"start":457.268,"end":465.055,"text":"道果唯一嘛這個貿易逆差常年來都有了事情怎麼會是因為日圓貶值造成貶值我跟委員報告事實上你就說日本逆差"},{"start":474.002,"end":489.93,"text":"不是說一直都是逆差喔沒有沒有啦我說逆差一直以來逆差很清楚嘛沒有他沒有一直逆差以來他是2021年以後才逆差的是這幾年才逆差嗎對啊逆差那你就告訴我"},{"start":490.59,"end":512.546,"text":"這幾年逆差的情況底下我要問一下我問一下總裁我們有長期逆差我再問一下長期逆差我們是有利出口沒有錯但是相對為然我要問替民眾問一個問題為什麼日本進口商品網路代購的藥裝食品民眾想要問的明明日圓貶值這麼多了為什麼沒有降價"},{"start":516.752,"end":519.213,"text":"市長,您能給本席一個答案嗎?"},{"start":543.343,"end":569.344,"text":"我想我沒有特別深入研究不過應該是有比較很多元的因素嘛第一個部分就是說可能這個進來的這個你沒有深入研究本席請你好好去研究一下我們一定會去尋找這個最最最最真潔的原因在哪邊對啊這是消費者的權益問題啊明明貶值貶這麼多難道要去日本買才會便宜來台灣買日本商品就不會便宜一樣是日圓改成台幣"},{"start":570.385,"end":571.387,"text":"我向委員報告 我覺得可能這商品的那個"},{"start":579.359,"end":601.003,"text":"拜致之間的對話你有沒有參與啊?我沒有參與你沒有參與那是陳正琦在管的喔陳正琦在管你回去跟陳正琦講一下跟你部長講一下這沒道理嘛對不對好不好總裁那個這個部分再麻煩你期待啦對你充滿期待你的新招數謝謝總裁謝謝市長謝謝委員指教"},{"start":610.571,"end":611.596,"text":"現在進行賴會員賴委員"}]}},{"id":"153681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d50d6b19b7818727392248f66a23a11b538282b1d5b897dd1c2843dd09ca1b81945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:35:16 - 09:46:32","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:35:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:46:32+08:00","duration":676,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":151,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時35分）謝謝主席，以及各位先進。有請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：總裁早。理事會下個禮拜開，是吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：現在看起來，今天歐洲央行理事會說可望降息，外界的揣測，加拿大已經降息了、開了G7的第一槍，歐洲央行一般估算是跟進……"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上瑞士前一陣子也降息。"],["賴委員士葆：所以應該可以降息？他們都降息。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會討論，在6月13日，很抱歉，剛好就是我們這10天之內因為……"],["賴委員士葆：緘默期。"],["楊總裁金龍：嗯，第一個，緘默期；第二個，那是委員會，委員討論的結果在那一天才會公布，所以我現在講的話也不見得就是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：可是你會參考這些吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然。我們會考慮全球的整個經濟情況是怎麼樣；第二個，全球主要央行的貨幣政策走向是怎麼樣，這個我們都會討論。"],["賴委員士葆：一般預估，下週美國Fed不會降息。"],["楊總裁金龍：現在市場是覺得，應該還是不會……"],["賴委員士葆：因為CPI控制得可以，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛我也在講，現在看起來好像……因為前一陣子經濟還是很resilient、強韌的時候，物價沒辦法下來，所以市場一度認為它大概今年是不會降。不過最近又有一點變化，它的經濟確實是有在slow down、有在下來，而且它通膨的控制也是在慢慢地……"],["賴委員士葆：所以降息刺激經濟……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以現在市場上也在講，可能它9月份會降息喔！"],["賴委員士葆：你同意了喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，市場的話，那我們也是……我同意不同意，因為這個我沒辦法明確地去預測……"],["賴委員士葆：以你專家的角度同意啊！這樣子而已。那麼困難！"],["楊總裁金龍：不過這種方向，降息的話，因為Fed主要成員都一直認為，就是它現在的利率已經足夠高了，不會再升息，只會往下。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們的利率會不會也是足夠高了？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，我們的情況是跟美國稍微有點不太一樣，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：我們利率不高？"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我跟委員……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你啊！因為時間有限。我們利率不高？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我跟委員報告，事實上我們現在的利率是15年以來最高。"],["賴委員士葆：最高。"],["楊總裁金龍：15年半以來。"],["賴委員士葆：所以隱含的意思，楊總裁今天的話裡面就隱含有降息的空間，這樣講……"],["楊總裁金龍：我也沒有這麼說，我的意思就是說我們要不要降息，要看我們通膨率，要看通膨……"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！我這樣說你不能否認嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：呃……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要否認啦！你的報告裡面，我讀一段，你說要參考地緣政治調整貨幣政策，結果國際危機組織說臺海局勢非常地惡化，請問你怎麼樣調整貨幣政策？地緣政治。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，這個惡化不惡化，有些時候我們從金融市場，當然實際上是不是惡化，這個我不……但是我們觀察的是金融市場。不過我跟委員報告，以目前來看的話，我們金融市場是沒有受到影響。"],["賴委員士葆：所以不必調整？"],["楊總裁金龍：那也不……這個也不是這麼說。"],["賴委員士葆：所以不必調整？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個都會討論。"],["賴委員士葆：好，所以就你來講，是沒有惡化嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：但國外的組織認為臺海惡化，這是國際組織他們的看法。","請問你，今天股市又大漲，當然漲了大家就高興。你會不會擔心股市過熱，你有提到ETF，這個你的對策是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想是這樣子，股市一般來講的話，因為基本上股市過熱，也許它就會做correction。"],["賴委員士葆：現在沒有過熱？我問你啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我跟委員報告，因為同樣的匯率跟股市都是全球連動，我們台股之所以現在也是很bullish，就是很那個……事實上美國也是這樣，全球也都是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：所以等於是全球股市都在漲……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：所以臺灣沒有過熱的問題，是不是可以這樣講？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不敢說它就是……因為要判斷它過熱或不過熱，有些時候是很難的，我也不能……因為你看全球都是在漲啊！"],["賴委員士葆：因為大家會擔心過熱以後就泡沫化啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：它會correction。所以一般來講的話，對於市場，主管機關特別是金管會，我相信它都會說居高思危，對投資人來講都是居高思危……"],["賴委員士葆：那你要不要也公開講一下居高思危？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然啦！也是居高思危。"],["賴委員士葆：所以現在已經高了喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：算是，如果以歷史來……"],["賴委員士葆：很高了！"],["楊總裁金龍：以歷史來看的話，現在我們的股市，我跟委員報告，基本上我們是歷史新高，對不對？日本也是歷史新高。"],["賴委員士葆：美國。"],["楊總裁金龍：美國也是歷史新高，歐洲也是歷史新高。"],["賴委員士葆：有一個講法，美國大選是今年11月，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：11月之前全球的金融市場都會繼續好，這個你同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我……金融市場你只能說……"],["賴委員士葆：股市。"],["楊總裁金龍：金融市場，你只能很密切地去關注它，你不要去做太那個的什麼預測，有些時候當然我們是私下預測，但公開的預測是不必要的。"],["賴委員士葆：你也常常在預測，你不就在打自已嘴巴？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，但是我們的貨幣政策，我們要預測CPI、預測經濟成長率，這個是我們的職責。而預測股市，這個不是我們的職責。"],["賴委員士葆：你先不要講，請經濟部次長一起。"],["主席：請經濟部林次長。"],["賴委員士葆：楊總裁，還是請問你，現在房市是不是過熱？你擔不擔心房市過熱？因為股市一直漲啊！大家賺了錢，房市一直推新高。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們還是密切注意，6月13日理事會也會討論這個議題。"],["賴委員士葆：外界關心，你的信用管制措施會不會再祭出來？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會討論這個議題，6月13日就一定會公布。"],["賴委員士葆：外面也有傳言說，你把豪宅的標準，原來是臺北市七千萬，降為六千萬，貸款成數會降低……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，從選擇性信用管制以來，我們都會找一些專家學者以及銀行來座談，瞭解一般的市場狀況。這次我們一樣是這樣子做，6月13日理監事會的時候也會討論這個議題。"],["賴委員士葆：我就是一句話：不排除祭出選擇性信用管制？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個到時候就會知道了。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：次長，我問你一句話就好。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：昨天你們經濟部的長官郭部長公開說了，只要修法通過，核二、核三可以延役，你知道這個事嗎？"],["林次長全能：我有看昨天整個轉播。"],["賴委員士葆：媒體這麼大的報導，都有啊！"],["林次長全能：是，我有看昨天的轉播。"],["賴委員士葆：但我就是請你轉告部長一句話，趕快提修法！"],["林次長全能：委員，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：你們沒有提修法喔，你不能擺爛喔！說在野黨修法，在野黨修，修好以後又去罵在野黨，變成我們搭一個舞台讓你下樓梯，然後你又來罵，這東西不能這樣操作，這樣操作人民是不能接受的。"],["林次長全能：委員，要修法的是核子反應器設施管制法。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊、對啊！修第六條。"],["林次長全能：不是經濟部主管的，經濟部沒辦法提出修法。"],["賴委員士葆：你要他們跨部會講一下或者請民進黨團提，對不對？現在沒有法，對不對？所以這個話是空話，如果你今天這種態度的話，就叫打假球，經濟部長這叫打假球。"],["林次長全能：我想我只是就法律的部分跟委員回答。"],["賴委員士葆：對，那要解決的話，怎麼會一個行政部門的高官說：這個不是我主管。你去協調啊！還不簡單？你去協調這個東西還不簡單，對不對？請民進黨團提案就好了。現在來講，國民黨團提案給你們，你們也不去修、也不去處理，然後講個空話，這句叫空話，你告訴部長，他如果沒有積極修法就叫做空話，就是政客，知道嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在質詢請郭國文召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":1.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.95471875,"end":4.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.35096875,"end":6.966593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.236593750000001,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.193468750000001,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.184718750000002,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.27721875,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.96471875,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.72409375,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.90971875,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.36534375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.17534375,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.64721875,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.74784375,"end":32.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.32534375,"end":36.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.19409375,"end":36.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.02096875,"end":41.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.47596875,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.26909375,"end":42.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.298468750000005,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.96471875,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.032218750000006,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.50471875,"end":48.59721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促使經濟所以他現在也是市場上也在講就是說可能他9月份喔可能9月份會降息喔"},{"start":144.656,"end":144.696,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":165.527,"end":181.382,"text":"因為他這個費的這些的主要的成員都一直認為就是說他現在的利率已經是足夠的高了不會再升息只會往下我們的利率會不會足夠高"},{"start":183.522,"end":190.328,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的情況是跟美國稍微有點不太一樣但是我跟委員報告事實上我們現在利率是15年以來15年半以來的最高"},{"start":201.218,"end":222.533,"text":"最高15年半以來所以隱含的意思楊總裁今天的話裡面就隱含有降息的空間?我也沒有這麼說我的意思就是說我們要不要降息要看我們通膨率要看我們通膨率我這樣說你不能否認嘛"},{"start":225.894,"end":228.256,"text":"要參考地緣政治調整貨幣的政策"},{"start":239.938,"end":264.779,"text":"結果國際危機組織說台灣台海局勢惡化很非常的惡化請問你怎麼樣調整貨幣政策我跟委員報告這個惡化不惡化有些時候我們從金融市場有些時候就是說當然事實上實際上是不是惡化這個我問但是呢我們觀察的是金融市場"},{"start":266.02,"end":274.087,"text":"我們是觀察的是金融市場但是我跟委員報告以目前來看的話我們金融市場是沒有受到影響的"},{"start":275.285,"end":301.531,"text":"所以不必調整不必調整這個都會討論的啦這個都會討論的好所以就你來講沒有惡化啦但是國外的組織認為台海惡化這是國際的組織他們看的來請問你今天股市又大漲當然漲就大家高興了你會不會擔心股市過熱你就有提到ETF你有提到ETF那這個"},{"start":305.08,"end":332.906,"text":"你的對策是什麼?我想是這樣子的齁股市齁股市一般來講的話只要只要因為基本上股市齁跟跟股市過熱齁也許他就會做correction啦現在有沒有過熱現在有沒有過熱但是呢我跟委員報告因為齁一樣的匯率跟股市齁都是全球聯動"},{"start":334.522,"end":343.728,"text":"所以等於是全球股市都在漲?所以台灣沒有過熱的問題?怎麼可以這樣講?我也不敢就是說他就是因為要判斷他過熱不過熱有些時候是很難的"},{"start":363.16,"end":364.221,"text":"我相信他都會說居高思維"},{"start":385.197,"end":386.158,"text":"賴士葆賴士葆賴士葆賴"},{"start":403.606,"end":428.761,"text":"我跟委員報告啦基本上我們是歷史新高 對不對日本也是歷史新高美國也是歷史新高歐洲也是歷史新高有一個講法說美國大選美國大選今年11月嘛是吧11月之前全球的金融市場都會繼續好這個你同意嗎"},{"start":430.502,"end":448.769,"text":"金融市場你只能說你只能說很密切密切的去關注它你不要去做太那個的那個什麼預測有些時候當然我們是私下預測但是公開的預測是不必要的"},{"start":449.329,"end":450.01,"text":"請經濟部林次長楊總裁請問你"},{"start":474.707,"end":483.815,"text":"你有沒有 現在房市是不是過日房市你擔不擔心房市過日因為股市一直漲啊大家欠賺啊房市一直推新高"},{"start":485.49,"end":488.252,"text":"外界關係說你的信用管制措施會不會再激出來外面也有在傳言說"},{"start":508.37,"end":511.032,"text":"從我們選擇性信用管制以來我們都會找一些專家學者還有銀行我們都會來座談瞭解一些要一般的那個什麼市場的一個狀況"},{"start":533.387,"end":534.468,"text":"昨天的經濟部的你們長官 郭部長他公開說了"},{"start":560.435,"end":572.341,"text":"他說只要修法通過．何二何三可以研議你知道這個事吧?媒體這麼大的報導都有啊但我就是請你轉告部長一句話趕快提修法"},{"start":581.435,"end":586.939,"text":"委員那個修法那個是核子管制設施的辦法不是經濟部主管的經濟部沒有辦法去提出修法"},{"start":607.247,"end":622.05,"text":"啊你要他們誇部會講一下啊叫或者請民進黨團的提啊 對不對啊現在沒有法喔 對不對啊所以這個話叫空話如果你今天這種態度的話那就要打假球"},{"start":623.226,"end":650.248,"text":"我想,我想我只是就法律的部分跟委員會打架。對啊,那要解決的話,怎麼會一個就在行政部門的高官會說,哎呀,這個不是我主管,你去協調啊,還不簡單。你協調這個東西還不簡單。對不對,請民進黨的提案就好了。對不對,現在來講國民黨的提案了給你們。啊你們也不要去修,也不要去處理。啊然後呢?"},{"start":652.506,"end":653.026,"text":"郭國文 郭昭瑋"}]}},{"id":"153680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5ecdca68d8dce2f642248f66a23a11b538282b1d5b897dd1c0d19e8fa393994795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:24:30 - 09:35:13","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢。\n【6月3日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:24:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:35:13+08:00","duration":643,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":112,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時24分）主席，麻煩請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：吳委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁早。剛剛我有在底下聆聽了您的意見，其實把全國國民的財富用五等分，分成20%，然後以最低的20%，去比較他們之間的倍數，很少國家這樣做，因為有一個理論說有很多國家最低的20%是minus，minus跟正數怎麼比？那就是無限大倍。但是臺灣因為最低五等分的家庭儲蓄有77萬，當然最上面的20%平均是一千多萬，快要2,000萬，所以比起來有六十幾倍的差距。這樣子計算到底合不合理？跟全世界比較起來，是不是臺灣真的貧富差距非常懸殊？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，基本上，據我的瞭解，我們應該是還好，臺灣還……"],["吳委員秉叡：就以吉尼係數來講也還好。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們還好。第二個，雖然我們還好，但是貧富不均的比例稍微有提升，這個是比較……"],["吳委員秉叡：這個我想是全球化之後通常的現象。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員講的沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：我在想的是這樣子，你剛剛也有提到，如何讓經濟最困難的這些人可以有尊嚴的生活下去？這個就要靠稅賦跟社會福利救助，其實這是在建構社會基層的安全網，要托住最底層的人，不能使這個網破掉，讓他往下墜落。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員講的我非常同意，我認同。"],["吳委員秉叡：你剛剛講的社會救助是一個現代化國家……尤其臺灣的社會安全網、社會救助做得不錯，當然還可以繼續精進，繼續往好的方向做，重要的是不要漏掉哪一部分的人。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：你說在民主國家，在我們這樣的環境要強求壓制所有的人，把富人壓制下來跟大家平均，讓倍數不要變大，我覺得這個不是好方法。有能力的人、願意努力的人，或是有機運的人得到比較好的收入，政府用比較高的稅收彌補。再來，對於機運不好或是原來的資本就不夠，使得他在這個社會必須靠勞力賺錢等等，生活有困難或是有疾病等等因素，你要用社會安全網把他托住，讓他足以繼續生活，讓他以及他的下一代將來在這個社會還可以增長，甚至有翻轉的機會。我想這個才是國家應該走的路，而不是為了美化數字，為了不要這樣子，所以把有錢人的財產都壓低下來，這樣倍數就少了，講起來好像這樣子就達到貧富平均了，不要強求貧富平均。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我同意委員的看法。"],["吳委員秉叡：而是要用一個最基層的社會安全網把他托住，這是我基本的理念。"],["楊總裁金龍：要讓整個社會能夠進步，然後要截長補短，對於前面這一端，我們在稅率上看看怎麼合理地徵收，然後補助最下層的人。"],["吳委員秉叡：簡單講，用一句話說就是國家應該要把舞台布置好，讓有能力的人精彩地發揮，際遇比較不好的人也不要墜落舞臺，我覺得應該要採這樣的理念。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們就回到今天的主題，日本的貨幣寬鬆是安倍三箭，我個人比較主觀的認為，日幣兌美元貶值是有意的、故意做的，不是因為貿易的習慣，不然不可能突然從七十幾塊一直貶到150。我覺得這裡面有政府刻意引導，這當然是日本自己為了國家經濟上的需要，所以日本政府做了選擇。當美元的利率這麼高的時候，日幣還在貨幣寬鬆，當然這個影響很大，如果他們不要量化寬鬆就不會貶得這麼快。我個人觀察，它的目的是希望讓日本的製造業也有機會回流日本。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員說得沒錯，我也滿同意的。"],["吳委員秉叡：而且我們以前在這個地方跟你請教過一個觀念，一個國家的CPI為0是不好的，0是通縮。剛剛看你報告裡面的表，有沒有？日本那些年的CPI很低，甚至minus，結果整個國家的經濟就在通貨緊縮的狀況。以前跟你談過一個概念，你也很認可，CPI在2左右是好的，如果低於1有通縮的危險，高於3當然就不好，是很快的通貨膨脹。我們覺得觀念要矯正，不要讓錯誤的觀念一直流傳，CPI是正的就把它講成不好，其實臺灣今年如果能夠控制到二點零幾就了不起。"],["楊總裁金龍：還可以。"],["吳委員秉叡：正好是國家……我認為就一個經濟體來講，CPI是2代表穩定並稍微擴張，這是很合理的事情。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：老是講物價膨脹怎麼樣怎麼樣。我媽媽跟我講，他民國51年結婚的時候，我們吃的剉冰一碗5角，現在動輒一、二百，對不對？好一點的還不止，但是至少近100塊。國家的經濟在成長的過程中，有適度的通膨逐年累積是正常現象。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，委員講的沒有錯。基本上，物價在上漲，物價雖然上漲，但是它的品質……剛剛委員講以前的剉冰5角，現在的剉冰100、200塊，但是你看看它的料跟以前的料比較，現在裡面的東西比以前好得多。也就是說，物價雖然上漲了，但是它的品質也提升很多。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，我現在講一個……你這個觀點我也贊成，但是也有物料比較沒有變化的……像豬肉的變化很大，對不對？豬肉以前一斤多少錢，現在多少錢？那個看年代就知道了。","好，我講另外一個現在被猜測可能遇到的問題。現在中國都傾銷，所以歐洲、美國等大的經濟體可能會對它實施關稅制裁，加它的關稅或是對它進行傾銷調查。有人說中國對這一招還有一招可以抵抗，就是讓人民幣貶值。美國假設加它10%的關稅、加它20%的關稅，它把人民幣貶值之後，就國際貿易來講，去中國購買這些貨品的價格是一樣的，對不對？因為美國的關稅加20%，它如果對美金貶值20%，以購買者而言，加上關稅之後的價格跟現在是一樣的，所以有人猜測人民幣很可能會貶值，而且會在一定的時間內快速貶值，不知道你的看法怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，就我們目前的觀察，人民幣不大敢貶值，為什麼呢？因為第一個，它有外債，貨幣貶值的時候外債會更多，因為它的廠商……不是它國家的外債，而是它的廠對國外借錢。第二個，它的capital outflows。如果它貶的時候，也有可能加速資本外流，它有一點怕。你看看我們也仔細觀察，所以在我們這個報告裡面也有談到，事實上，它現在也是有一點阻貶。也就是說，貶當然是人家一般所講的，是雙面刃，有些時候在這邊是好的，可是那一邊卻不好，所以兩害相權，看看是哪一個，但是它目前是採不讓貨幣太貶的立場。"],["吳委員秉叡：我瞭解，因為美國跟歐洲加關稅不是現在，是未來。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：加了關稅之後，因為中國是控制匯率的國家，它有可能在一夕之間突然宣布貶10%，我講的是有可能出現狀況。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，你這樣講，事實上，我們都會密切注意……"],["吳委員秉叡：對，我就是要提醒你們，這個也要考慮在內，因為這個都會影響到國際間的貿易公平性以及臺灣如何穩定，我們在這麼多風浪中求穩定，這是一個很重要的價值。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：這也是一個很好的價值，就是央行到現在一直都做得很不錯的部分，好不好？繼續加油。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-16","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","李彥秀","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","羅明才","林楚茵","廖先翔","謝衣鳯","葉元之","陳玉珍"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「日圓貶值效應會否導致亞洲貨幣競貶，及對台灣經濟影響」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請經濟部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1135801_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.40596875,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.970968750000001,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.16909375,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.484718750000003,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.501593750000001,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.745968750000003,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.56409375,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.22221875,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.99846875,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.28096875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.10596875,"end":41.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.767218750000005,"end":41.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.84721875,"end":41.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.89784375,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.914718750000006,"end":43.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.775343750000005,"end":46.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.16284375,"end":48.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.91784375,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.407218750000006,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.91721875,"end":53.322218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.31784375,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.359718750000006,"end":56.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.56221875000001,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.25721875,"end":64.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.35846875,"end":73.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.40909375,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.53409375000001,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.63534375,"end":75.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.03596875000001,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.74721875,"end":94.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.62846875000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.61534375000001,"end":94.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.63721875,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.02909375,"end":120.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.04596875000001,"end":120.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.07971875000001,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.96909375000001,"end":142.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.33909375000002,"end":134.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.74721875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.06784375,"end":143.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.13096875000002,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.46659375000002,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.56784375,"end":155.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.88409375,"end":157.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.54221875000002,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.01784375,"end":165.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.40159375000002,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.46909375,"end":166.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.63971875000001,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.24284375000002,"end":183.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.94659375,"end":189.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.48659375000003,"end":191.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.34284375000001,"end":191.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.06409375,"end":197.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.48534375,"end":197.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.51909375000002,"end":197.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.78909375,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.98534375000003,"end":211.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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text":"那這個目的我個人來觀察是希望讓日本的製造業也有機會回流日本對 委員說的沒錯 我也蠻同意的而且我們以前在這個地方請教過一個觀念一個國家的CPI"},{"start":319.147,"end":332.251,"text":"零是不好的捏,零是通縮捏,你剛剛看你的表裏面,你的報告表裏面有沒有,日本那些年的CPI很低啊,甚至Mainas啊,結果整個國家的經濟就在通縮,通貨緊縮的狀況。"},{"start":334.292,"end":360.161,"text":"以前跟你談過的概念你也很認可就是CPI在2左右是好的那如果低於1是有通縮的危險高於3那當然就不好了那就是很快的通貨膨脹所以我們覺得觀念要矯正不要讓錯誤的觀念一直流傳說有CPI是正的好像就把它講成不好其實台灣如果今年能夠控制在2.0幾"},{"start":362.422,"end":365.843,"text":"我媽媽跟我講他民國51年結婚的時候他那時候一碗剉冰一碗五角"},{"start":387.791,"end":413.443,"text":"現在動輒一兩百嘛對不對好一點的還不止欸但是至少也近百塊嘛所以就以經濟國家經濟在成長在戰場的過程中有四度的通膨逐年累積是正常現象是是委員講的沒有錯啦基本上呢我們又說物價在上漲事實上呢物價雖然也在上漲但是呢它的品質啊"},{"start":413.963,"end":442.098,"text":"我剛剛那個委員在講說以前的那個剉冰五角跟現在的剉冰一百塊兩百塊但是呢你要想想看現在的剉冰一百塊兩百塊但是它的料你來看看它的料跟以前的料來比較的話現在的料是它的裡面的那個東西啊是比以前好得多也就是說物價雖然上漲了但是呢它的品質啊也提升了很多那我現在講一個"},{"start":443.183,"end":457.534,"text":"吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡吳秉叡"},{"start":457.947,"end":480.653,"text":"被猜測可能遇到的問題現在中國的因為他現在都是傾銷所以歐洲美國這個大的經濟體可能會對他實施關稅的制裁加他的關稅或是對他的傾銷調查有人說中國對這一招他還有一招可以抵抗就是把人民幣貶值"},{"start":482.573,"end":501.77,"text":"你現在美國假設加他10%的關稅加到20%的關稅他把人民幣也貶值的時候就國際貿易來講去他中國那邊購買這些貨品價格是一樣的啊對不對美國的關稅加20%他如果對美金貶值20%那就就以購買者而言他"},{"start":503.772,"end":525.598,"text":"加上關稅之後的價格跟現在是一樣的所以就有人在猜測說人民幣可能會貶值而且會在一定的時間內會快速貶值這個不知道你的看法怎麼樣我跟委員報告基本上就我們目前在觀察人民幣它不大敢貶值"},{"start":528.599,"end":545.056,"text":"為什麼呢?因為第一個他有外債外債你貶值的時候外債會更多因為他的廠商我就說不是他國家的外債而是他的廠對國外那個什麼借錢那第二個呢他的capital outflows"},{"start":546.014,"end":569.902,"text":"如果說他貶的時候也有可能會加速他的資本的外流他有一點怕所以你看看我們也仔細所以在我們這個報告裡面我們也有談到他事實上他現在也是有一點主貶所以也就是說貶當然是人家一般所講的雙面刃"},{"start":573.783,"end":574.184,"text":"我瞭解因為"},{"start":588.68,"end":610.636,"text":"美國跟歐洲的加關稅不是現在是未來嘛那加了關稅之後因為中國是一個匯率他控制的國家他有可能在一夕之間突然之間宣布貶10%我講的是有可能的狀況所以呢委員你這講事實上我們都會密切注意對我就說提醒說這個也要考慮在內因為這個都會影響到"},{"start":612.957,"end":630.333,"text":"國際之間的貿易公平性以及台灣的日歐穩定我們在這個這麼多的風浪中求穩定這是一個很重要的價值是是是沒有錯這也是一個很好的價值這是央行央行你們一直到現在一直都做得很不錯的部分是謝謝謝謝好不好繼續加油好謝謝謝謝好謝謝下一位質詢請賴世保賴委員"}]}},{"id":"153679","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153679","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d55ade387988fab502f3bd234b5abfe8c98282b1d5b897dd1ca4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:56:39 - 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我們有請顧部長來 部長請"},{"start":11.486,"end":36.526,"text":"社區委員好是部長您是文官上任所以對您未來在軍中的大刀闊斧改革我們有很多的期待首先要先肯定您哦取消實施兩年多以來因為兩岸情勢緊張的政府主觀不得同時理應相關規定以及呢開放國軍的自由行因為有太多我們過去對於軍人的限制再加上他們的負擔工作量很大"},{"start":37.026,"end":59.002,"text":"愿意当兵的人肯定会变少以及想离营的人一定会变多所以我们希望在很多的制度上面可以做改革让愿意从军的人他可以变多那不想待在部队里面的人变少那我想这个是第一个部分那再来呢我们要讨论到今天很多人都谈到了这个国军的自伤案"},{"start":59.562,"end":87.962,"text":"那就我們所掌握到的資訊呢自傷未遂的案件我想要請問部長有沒有了解近期內到底還有幾期這是請戰局幫忙回答一下其實因為我覺得時間有限啦直接講就是還有四期的自傷未遂那所以等於說呢今年到五月的案件數量我想要請問一下部長你有沒有關心到跟去年的同期是幾倍差距有幾倍"},{"start":89.196,"end":94.625,"text":"您說智商的部分就今年5月跟去年同期的比較有幾倍?"},{"start":97.102,"end":121.873,"text":"我的理解我並不知道確確的幾倍但是我知道今年到現在為止算是高的好算真的算高因為我們算過大概是2.3倍這樣子的一個數字所以代表說有很多地方需要去做改善那新府制度的部分剛才羅委員也說了那我想問一下部長您知不知道所謂在有資商資格的人力不足剛才委員有提到"},{"start":122.293,"end":148.306,"text":"您知道目前配置具備資格的等級是要到我們國軍的哪一個層級才有具備資商資格的相關人力嗎?報告委員我們目前有我知道您知道啦我們是在問部長知不知道那沒關係齁因為我們時間很有限我直接告訴部長好不好是屢或群級以上的單位才配置對吧這個我跟您討論過很多次了"},{"start":150.347,"end":168.754,"text":"所以就算要向外求援也要呈報到旅籍的單位經同意後才到民間輔導單位去諮商而這沒有什麼道理我談過很多次了所以我們希望說可以扁平化在營籍或是下放權限到連籍第一線的主觀發現問題的時候"},{"start":170.495,"end":170.695,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":195.259,"end":198.342,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":219.8,"end":239.998,"text":"應該同意我還沒有要問你轉型爭議我要問你的是軍隊的改革的部分我相信是如此的那我們看一下下一張通訊片實際上我們在收到的這個戰情報告他們在5月30號的時候要求軍團要發下國防部全軍生育率調查表"},{"start":240.458,"end":259.687,"text":"然後呢要你呢在5月31號10點的時候把單位軍職及聘僱人員的生日情形回傳人行科然後我想要請問一下那個部長您因我不太確定您知不知道這件事情但您看到這樣子的說法之後您第一個時間的感受是什麼"},{"start":261.141,"end":285.359,"text":"跟委員報告這個詳細警醒我不是非常好我理解來我們看下一張請先都不要幫不好回答因為我們都問過你們很多次了這個統計表長這樣部長您看一下它分成育有子女人數跟生育子女人數配偶同為均值人數然後配偶同為均值人數跟生育子女人數它的報表統計表長這樣在5月30到5月30要填寫完畢"},{"start":290.283,"end":290.903,"text":"因為我完全沒有看過這個統計表"},{"start":320.291,"end":340.844,"text":"好來幫忙說明一下這可以說明了因為我真的很想知道答案委員我先說明一下這個秘密是我下的主要的目的是因為要統計我們全球所有的官士兵的子女因為我們現在都有育兒的教育就育兒託兒所那我們想統計的時候瞭解一下這個我們育兒"},{"start":341.744,"end":363.621,"text":"我問的問題是育幼跟生育的分別在哪我先把目的跟委員做個說明好我知道我問過你們了嗎我現在問的問題很單純因為我們時間真的很有限我只想知道育幼跟生育的差別在哪裡如果我是一個國軍的士兵我被我的長官要求要提供這樣的報表那我要怎麼區分說育幼跟生育差異到底在哪"},{"start":364.281,"end":364.661,"text":"請你先別說了,部長"},{"start":382.33,"end":401.022,"text":"我認為這樣的一個調查是相當傷害他人隱私權而且也引起了部隊裡面很多的人的不滿我知道你們可能是好意但是那你們是不是就救我們的這個國軍子女有沒有所謂的需要照顧或是照料來做申請"},{"start":402.083,"end":426.12,"text":"讓他們主動來申請嘛來我們看前一張你們是要求部隊在一天之內回報生育情形欸如果我是一個國軍我收到我是一個基層的軍人我收到你們對我有這樣子的要求第一個傻眼到不行第二個我會懷疑因為您剛講了您的意思可是我就我作為一個基層國軍我會懷疑說你現在是想要問我有沒有想要生小孩嗎"},{"start":427.08,"end":444.032,"text":"這是一個非常個人隱私Personal的問題因為育有子女說跟生育子女人數我看不出上面您剛講的說是離婚不離婚的差別部長你可不可以簡單敘述一下我把整個案情跟您做一個釐清你怎麼看待這樣子的事情在我們的軍中不斷的發生呢"},{"start":444.412,"end":473.026,"text":"第一個我同意委員的看法就是我們應該要檢討第二個就是說任何這個統計都要核目的性也就是說他的目的是為了什麼才去設計這樣的表格那這個表格跟他的這個核目的性的看起來沒有辦法能夠取得足夠的連結我想我們這個部分是所以呢再來因為您是律師我要再請教你一個問題這樣子的一個統計調查有沒有違反性別平等相關還有就業服務法相關的一些問題"},{"start":474.601,"end":491.668,"text":"我想這一個他本身的用意可能是良善的但是表格的設計可能是不是很適切的因為我們在救福法的第5條第2項第2款裡面其實寫得很清楚我們不得要求這個就業需要的隱私的資料"},{"start":492.108,"end":492.368,"text":"徐巧芯委員"}]}},{"id":"153678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5e80db146b9594d2079f99d17e212a4188282b1d5b897dd1c4dc9c27a7575cebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:49:05 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這個目前還是由碳費審議委員會他們正在制定費率當中那他們可能會設定一個範圍之後由我來發布對 因為我這樣講根據我們碳權專家臺北大學的李建明教授的分析如果碳費按照每噸300元的課徵將對部分產業衝擊是非常的巨大那我在這邊有一張表請部長看一下"},{"start":103.12,"end":120.973,"text":"那是針對國內主要的鋼鐵及石化業以去年的碳排量來計算中鋼公司一年碳排量2200萬公噸就是要繳交60億的碳費那遠遠超出他稅前的盈餘46億元也就是說中鋼還沒有繳稅就先虧14億"},{"start":125.717,"end":144.185,"text":"第二,我們看中時化原本稅前就虧損5.9億那再繳5億碳費他就加倍他就會虧到10億元左右那台塑則要繳交高達98億元的碳費占去稅前盈利的17%整體徵收的規模可能達到五六百億"},{"start":149.008,"end":167.567,"text":"請問部長這樣的費率您認為這樣的對於我們的企業它真的可以承受嗎?報告委這個要算這個碳費這是一個很複雜的算法很多人不懂所以我必須說這個表格是計算太過簡化了事實上我們必須考慮到一個產業他的自主減碳的計畫"},{"start":168.388,"end":191.473,"text":"所以如果依照我們現在來看這幾個企業像中鋼他就做得非常好如果依照他有自主減量計劃甚至也要考慮到他的高碳洩漏係數的話其實他不用講那麼高啦但是這個還是要碳費省營會決定就是說碳費不是只用一個碳費他的排碳量多少乘以一個價錢出來的結果因為我們擔心的是這樣就是說如果企業的這個部分如果真的這樣收的時候那"},{"start":192.293,"end":215.388,"text":"我們也要全門考量不要影響到民生因為有很多東西它是相關連帶的它如果企業是這樣它成本增加它就會把物價調漲那調漲對我們老百姓直接的影響這個可能部長也要把它考慮進去那當然部長您認為我們的碳費現在應該多少錢才合理"},{"start":216.398,"end":245.077,"text":"如果依照基本上還是要衡量這個是要碳費審議委員會來決定但是以目前全世界必須有幾個考量例如說像歐盟他的碳交易大概是70塊歐元現在的價格是70塊歐元左右然後在有些國家大概都是預期未來到2030到2040年可能會到100到200塊美元所以其實這些企業應該要現在要趕快想辦法不是說我不准收這個費用大家要來想辦法"},{"start":246.138,"end":249.181,"text":"我們仔細看了一下其實歐盟他是超出標準才瞌睡"},{"start":267.698,"end":287.567,"text":"所以他超出標準他們的科稅標準是針對每個產業前10%的這個企業的平均碳排量所以稅率看起來很高實際上卻只徵收超標的部分幾乎有九成是不用收費的而且用不到的碳排量還可以當作這個碳權的一個交易"},{"start":288.928,"end":309.608,"text":"我們再看新加坡他初期的碳費只收五塊錢美金日本也是收兩塊兩塊錢美金所以我們的十塊錢美金就是憑良心講我們這樣看起來是非常的高我在這邊建議我也聽到很多企業建議希望在這個費率希望能定在一百元以內"},{"start":310.929,"end":336.465,"text":"你認為有可能嗎?報告委員這些國家你列的這幾個國家你跟你前面那一張碳廢的是衝突的所以我建議說我們一起可以把這個如何去計算那個方式搞懂因為很多的媒體他不是很懂啦所以搞懂是最主要的那第二件事情呢基本上的這些國家都有碳交易跟碳廢或碳稅碳稅的兩個制度並行啦那我未來呢這個環境部也會考量說"},{"start":337.165,"end":337.305,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":355.794,"end":381.156,"text":"五百多家企業裡面前面大概三四百家高科技業界他們都準備好了他們還在罵我們說收那麼低對他們國際競爭力不利所以希望高那至於說比較困難的這個就是我們要跟經濟部一起來合作來能夠幫他們的忙順利的轉型所以不是說我們全部調低就好那我們也必須考量到我們國內的這個CPI這個不要讓這個綠色通膨快速的發生起來"},{"start":381.756,"end":401.1,"text":"但是綠色通膨呢依照全世界的這個情況我們還是必須要考量要淨零碳排一定要有一些不一樣還有企業也非常關心我們自主減量的這個優惠的費率那根據環境部的規劃企業適用於優惠的費率未來10年必須達到削減排飯量就是說鋼鐵業是25%大概25%水泥業是22.3%其他的行業42%也就是說"},{"start":407.782,"end":436.449,"text":"攀排量每年必須達到4.2左右才可以享有優惠的費率而這個我認為這個目標我跟部長講這個有點高因為我們目前以我們臺灣做得比較好的幾個企業比如說日月光控股臺達電還有聯電及台塑都拿到雙A級的但是4月初這個週刊的揭露即使是台塑集團這種減碳的策略都已經"},{"start":437.469,"end":448.254,"text":"都已經通過CDP的評鑑的資優生也達不到10年42%的碳排的一個目標那我認為這個標準有點高啦既然剛開始"},{"start":450.017,"end":468.992,"text":"我們是要鼓勵大家來做這件事情我認為我們部裡面有必要去調整這個優惠的一個門檻讓我們的企業大家都能夠更樂意來做這件事情委員的建議其實我們的概念還是一樣一開始低然後慢慢逐步的會升高這個是我們的目前的共識"},{"start":469.933,"end":492.982,"text":"當然我們就是希望這個碳費的徵收也好我們進行減碳是國際產業的發展趨勢那當然徵收碳費的目的是要減碳不是賺錢沒錯這個希望政府能夠循序漸進然後慢慢的邁向這個經營轉型不要一下子讓企業生存不下去這也不是我們樂見的那另外第二個"},{"start":495.043,"end":505.43,"text":"我們最近6年來我們家庭廢棄物的事業廢棄物這個量產生大幅度攀升了112年已經分別達到1158萬公噸即2004萬公噸那並且因為這個政府的事業廢棄物處理的這個狀況包括南部最終的處理廠的"},{"start":516.497,"end":522.845,"text":"撤銷以及各地方失業廢棄物專門處理設施這個生設的不順利那112年已經有高達171.5萬工隊的失業廢棄物進到我們政府的焚化爐裡面這個是非常嚴重因為我們計算的話是大概是"},{"start":534.821,"end":535.401,"text":"接下來我們看這張照片"},{"start":553.787,"end":566.735,"text":"都是各縣市垃圾處理受到的失業廢棄物的排擠．無法順利處理而暫置的一個狀況目前包括桃園新竹南投等地方的垃圾堆積如山其中桃園市龍潭區"},{"start":568.703,"end":596.628,"text":"這個電子壺垃圾掩埋場已經堆至上百萬公噸的這個垃圾甚至已超過防護欄這恐有它這個坍塌的危險另外也產生不肖業者會在中間處理業者這個亂到的一個情形部長知不知道現在政府焚化爐處理失業廢棄物一公噸多少錢一百不好意思署長失業廢棄物失業廢棄物大概一萬塊上下"},{"start":598.203,"end":615.817,"text":"地方政府欸?對,就焚化爐是。焚化爐沒有吧?地方政府。您是說進地方政府焚化爐?進地方政府焚化爐是一萬塊。上下。那我知道的齁,有些這個失業廢棄物的這個處理商、清運商啦,他說的費用可能不止。"},{"start":616.597,"end":634.264,"text":"可能不只這樣子,那他進到,等於是他利用,因為他如果進一般民間的可能更高,可能更高。所以我要講的重點是,我們不能讓這些業者,他用我們供的焚化爐,讓他們來得到他們的那個獲利,這個是暴利。"},{"start":636.525,"end":660.16,"text":"那當然我們也要讓我們這些業者有地方去啊那當然我們知道剛剛有提到我剛剛也看到好幾個委員有提到就在我們現在垃圾事業廢棄物處理的部分根本沒有地方去根本沒有地方去這個是一個非常嚴重的問題搞到後面這邊也不能收那邊也不能收的時候就是亂到就是亂到嘛那部長對於這個有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":660.851,"end":673.921,"text":"我們現在已經有方案來推動這件事情了是什麼方式就是行政院已經核定了方案那就是有環境部還有經濟部跟國發費那現在有推動12座設施那我還給部長建議啦這是"},{"start":679.125,"end":702.478,"text":"有很多的政策其實我們知道垃圾沒辦法處理可是到了地方當要設置的時候就是因為地方的聲音不同就退了那一般民間業者其實也是碰到這樣的問題我在這邊建議環境部應該要拿出政府的一個魄力該做就是要做你不然到時候這些東西要去哪裡呢"},{"start":703.178,"end":726.448,"text":"所以我認為各縣市他都應該要有一個責任區甚至於我認為部長你應該給各縣市鼓勵獎勵甚至要求各縣市至少要做一做各縣市處理自己自己的垃圾的問題應該是很合理的我覺得這個用這個邏輯請政府出面然後政府來監督就不會擔心因為這個往往這種東西要這是閒物設施"},{"start":728.169,"end":728.189,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153677","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153677","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d516e2568fb23a5d4a9dbbe5275cafb4df8282b1d5b897dd1cde89be31bb10dba25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:44:07 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09:56:43","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:44:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:56:43+08:00","duration":756,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":175,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時44分）謝謝召委，我這邊請文化部李部長，然後政次要不要來協助一下？接下來是教育部彭署長。"],["主席：請李部長、李政次，還有彭署長。"],["林委員倩綺：另外是負責原住民的原民特教組組長孫組長及原民會的邱副處長。"],["主席：原民會邱副處長。"],["林委員倩綺：非常感謝召委今天排這樣一個主題，讓我們有機會跨部會來做對話的平臺，非常感謝。我今天大概是先針對原住民的部分來倡議，首先，原住民語言已經是國家語言，今天原民會在國家語言發展法推動成效總檢討專題報告提到，原住民族語言發展法第一條規定，原住民族語言為國家語言，這是確定的，而且會在國內外重大活動當中呈現，政府公職人員就職宣誓裡面也會做。現在連質詢有的時候都用這樣子的語言，雖然我們有很多的族群跟不同的語系，但是我們已經朝這個方向努力了，我覺得很好，當然還有很多細節還要再去推動，不過我們也要朝未來邁進，所以我今天唯一的倡議跟其中很多的建議，期待各部會一起來共同推動。","我的倡議就是期待推動原住民族語國際認證化，也就是讓大家都有機會來參與，細節我可以再跟大家討論與分享，教育部你們有「Test of Chinese as a Foreign Language」，我不知道怎麼唸，所以不好意思放上去，你們可能叫TOCFL，再麻煩你們跟我說到底怎麼唸。我們那個年代去美國的人都考過托福，那麼去英國的人考IELTS，歐洲的語言認證，你可能要考過DELE、DELF等語言認證，所以我在這邊跟大家分享一下，也就是既然是國語了，那國語的國際化應該是下一個階段我們要推動的重點。所以國際化怎麼推動呢？本人有這個很直接的經驗，我在2015年去考了法語的DELF A1，然後2016年考DELF A2，這個就有點像教育部現在在推的華文系統；然後在2018年我去考了西班牙文的DELE A1，我一直還沒有機會再往下考。這個是法國跟西班牙的教育部發的，全世界通用，而且它是很正式的政府系統發的，也只有這麼一張，丟掉也就沒有了，所以我們必須非常認真的保存這一份文件。","這個文件裡面，在成績的部分告訴你每個聽說讀寫的程度在哪裡、成績在哪裡，我把我的個人資訊先劃掉，另外，認證的內容就告訴你來自哪裡、你是誰、你的相關資訊、你通過了這個認證，西班牙文是這樣子，法文也是這樣。我相信教育部在推華語也是如此。所以既然是文化部來統籌，接下來究竟是要由教育部還是文化部，我覺得這個部分可以請你們去研議，讓大家都有機會，文化無國界，所以有興趣的不管是臺灣的原住民語認證，或者是我知道很多朋友都考不同語言的原住民語認證，那他們也考得很有興趣，大家都在學不同的語言。我們也給國外的人士一個機會，但是這個機會當然裡面有很多細節要去處理，所以我們有一些待解決的事項，待解決事項第一個就是拼音系統，我們知道原住民語目前比較能用的叫做羅馬拼音，當然有很多的拼音系統，International Phonetics System也是可以用的，本席就是學這種，但是羅馬拼音其實是我們的一個文化脈絡，不管用什麼樣的系統，只要讓大家能夠瞭解，我想就可以推動。但是系統的問題連華語都還沒有解決，教育部我相信你們應該有華語的一致性，讓有興趣來考的人能夠針對教育部的系統來學習，他可以得到那一張認證，會後我還是希望你們告訴我，你們那幾個字到底怎麼唸。","所以有幾個問題待解決的，一個是拼音系統問題，再來是原住民語光是在臺灣的教材、教具、環境的匱乏，更遑論未來要推廣到全國、推廣到全世界。最後一個是師資待解決，今天很多人都提到師資，這個我想確實是在語言的推動上很重要的一個問題，但是如果我們把範圍擴大，我相信這個部分也是有機會來做一些補足的。所以第一個是拼音系統，我相信現在社會上還是存在漢語拼音跟通用拼音，不管大家要怎麼用，比如說我到全世界都說我叫林倩綺，我的「倩綺」就會碰到拼音系統的不同，不管誰怎麼認識我，比如說大陸可能用x或用q，就是倩綺這兩個字在漢語拼音跟通用拼音其實就不一樣，最主要差距就是q、x、zh的發音，然後ㄑ、ㄒ、ㄓ的這些發音上，不管是什麼系統，這個部分要統一，至少在原住民語的部分，我們才能夠再往下走。","接下來是不是有誰可以來協助我們一下？這個是羅馬拼音，我們先不要管它什麼意思，那是不是有人可以……不知道是原民會還是文化部的次長要測試一下，還是彭署長？這無所謂對錯啦！不知道大家有哪一位願意？還是原民會的副處長來跟大家分享一下？"],["邱副處長文隆：好，這應該是阿美語。"],["林委員倩綺：是。"],["邱副處長文隆：因為我不是阿美語……"],["林委員倩綺：那是羅馬拼音，你們應該也是用羅馬拼音嘛！"],["邱副處長文隆：重音的部分可能會跟阿美語原來重音的部分不同標準，不過，按照我認識的拼音符號，這是Na icowaay kiso anini romi'ad？"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，很好。"],["邱副處長文隆：Papina ko tamdaw no loma'iso？"],["林委員倩綺：好，接下去大概是這樣子的概念，這個當然是有些問候語跟問話嘛！就是說你會不會族語，你今天好不好？然後你家怎麼樣？所以這個系統我們知道是羅馬拼音，我可以請教你一下，「romi'ad」的標點符號標在那邊，這個標點符號的重點在哪裡？"],["邱副處長文隆：問號嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：不是，romi再加標點一撇「'」，再來ad。"],["邱副處長文隆：那個應該是指它的喉塞音。"],["林委員倩綺：喉塞音嘛？"],["邱副處長文隆：應該是喉塞音的書寫符號系統。"],["林委員倩綺：各位，我也不曉得在場有幾個人能夠唸出喉塞音，各位，這個是羅馬拼音，我們如果知道它是羅馬拼音系統，那這個標誌我請會裡面要確認，我這樣講是把待會我要講的教師部分在這邊先提一下，當他們考到高級、優級，就有族語教師反映每一年的標點符號都不一樣，去年這樣子可以，今年這樣子不可以！他們無所適從，我相信你們知道問題就是我們有16種語言、47個語系，以阿美族來舉例，今天可能是南勢阿美當考官，結果他說秀姑巒阿美這個逗點不對，然後就考不過去！我們師資都已經在少了，還加上你們這個讓大家搞不清楚應該怎麼辦、每一年會變動的標點符號，確實師資會有困難！","接下來我們再講教具、教材還有環境，教材目前應該是九階，我就建議大家可不可以納入多元的教材、歌謠的教材？可以在原民會裡面，包括語發會還有原文會有關原文發展的部分一起來做。原住民跟歌謠是不可分的，如果我們照這樣子唸，其實很多人可以學個架構，但是精神、邏輯、概念、文化學不到！語言當然是把某一些部分系統化了，可是卻有一些部分涵蓋不到。第二個部分是增加影音的工具，很多族語教師反映他如果要教大家什麼叫檳榔葉，他要從他家裡撿一個掉在地上的檳榔葉，然後拿到流浪的教室裡面讓學生看到，所以教具還有教材這個部分其實要再做一個檢討！另外，沒有專屬的環境，這個很多人反映，教英文的老師有專屬的教室，教原住民語的老師常常教室外面在下雨、裡面在接雨，所以這個部分可能請教育部幫我們盤點一下，因為這個跟學校有很直接的關係。","最後我們講教學師資，雖然現在族語教師已經專職，但很麻煩的是，族語教師其實65歲以上也就沒辦法再教了。我們知道大部分的語言其實很多耆老是可以傳承的，就算現在在教室現場，我們都常常要耆老來協助，如果你把耆老都排除在外，當然他可以做支援教師，但是今天如果有人在65歲以上還有這個能力、而且能力其實很好的話，你難道要把他摒除嗎？這個部分可能要討論一下，因為我們師資都不足了。","然後再來是族群，我們是不是要公平發展？比如像邵族五百多人，世界的多元性就不在於多寡，所以五百多人，而現在族語教師缺乏，你要叫這五百人通通都來學這個嗎？我看也是很困難。所以邵族的人數，然後拉阿魯哇族、卡那卡那富族、撒奇萊雅族這些人，他們的族語教師要很清楚地檢視。另外，我們的等級有16族、42個體系，我們什麼時候可以有比較公平、最優等級的老師，這部分是不是請各部會能夠來研議一下？","最後是語言的分配正義，最重要的，我們也是要拯救瀕危的語言，以前碰到有人跟我說，我們都說台語，你可不可以跟我說：為什麼我叫做某某族？他可能語言都不見了，可能只剩下祭典！所以我們鼓勵大家來參與，這樣怎麼講呢？我以前學德文的時候問德國老師：你為什麼會來臺灣？那時候臺灣只有9族，他跟我說：我來研究賽德克族。賽德克族！那是哪裡來的？然後他說：這是在泰雅族裡面某一些亞族。當時他的回應是如此，外國人比我們更清楚臺灣的語言體系，所以我們推動國際認證這件事情是不是應該趕快做？當有一些瀕危的語系或者他只剩下一句話的族群，或許有人可以救回來。當然很重要的是，我們的主管單位是文化部，就如同部長所講的，文化的範圍相對大，我們如何在最基礎的語言裡面，把文化的精髓透過語言來傳達，而不是透過語言把它限縮在我們這個世代，然後就讓它死掉了！我期待我們部會能夠透過文化部的整合、教育部的協助，然後讓我們往下一個階段──原住民族語言國際認證，謝謝！感謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，部長請回。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 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of Chinese as a Foreign Language那你們可能叫托克弗勒再麻煩你們跟我說你們到底怎麼唸我們那個年代都考過托弗,去美國的人去英國的人就考過ELSE"},{"start":144.196,"end":146.357,"text":"我2015年去考了法語的那個Delf 阿安"},{"start":169.39,"end":180.554,"text":"2016 2016年考DEF R-DE這個就有點像教育部你現在在推的這樣一個華文的系統然後在2018年我去考了西班牙文的DELE R-UNO"},{"start":183.272,"end":206.134,"text":"我一直還沒有機會再往下考那我跟教育部這邊這個是法國跟西班牙它的教育部發的全世界通用而且它是很正式的一個政府發的系統那也只有這麼一個你丟掉也就沒有了所以你必須要認真的保存這一份文件所以它這個文件裡面在成績的部分"},{"start":206.815,"end":223.461,"text":"我們下一頁成績的部分呢他告訴你你每個聽說讀寫的程度在哪裡成績在哪裡那我把我的個人資訊先劃掉那另外呢再接下來那認證的這個內容他就告訴你你來自哪裡然後你是誰然後你的相關資訊你通過了這個認證那在西班牙文是這樣子"},{"start":228.063,"end":246.544,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":246.664,"end":270.315,"text":"文化無國界所以有興趣的不僅不管是臺灣的原住民認證或者是我知道很多朋友都考不同語言的原住民認證他們也考得很有興趣大家都在學這種不同的語言我們也給國外的人士有一個機會但是這個機會當然裡面有很多細節要去處理所以我們有一些待解決的事項"},{"start":271.675,"end":293.768,"text":"帶解決的事項就是第一個拼音系統然後我們知道在原住民語我們目前比較能用的叫做羅馬拼音當然有很多的拼音系統那International Phonetic System也是可以用的我本期就是學這種但是羅馬拼音其實是我們的一個文化脈絡那不管我們用什麼樣的系統只要讓大家能夠了解那我想就可以推動"},{"start":294.588,"end":311.412,"text":"但是系統的問題連華語都還沒有解決那我不知道那個教育部相信你們應該有個華語的一致性讓有興趣來考的人能夠針對教育部的系統來學習所以他可以得到那一張認證會議後我還是希望你們告訴我你們那幾個字到底怎麼念所以幾個問題我們待解決的一個是拼音系統的問題"},{"start":315.953,"end":341.522,"text":"然後再來是原住民族光是在臺灣這個教材教具環境的匱乏那更遑論我們未來要推廣給全國然後推廣到全世界那最後一個是師資待解決我想今天很多人都提到師資那這個我想確實是在語言的推動上很重要的一個問題但是如果我們把這個範圍擴大我相信這個部分也是有機會來做一些補足的所以第一個拼音系統"},{"start":342.902,"end":360.019,"text":"我相信現在在社會上還是存在就是這個漢語拼音跟通用拼音那不管大家要怎麼用比如說我到全世界都叫做我叫林倩綺那我那個倩綺就會碰到這個拼音系統的不同那不管誰怎麼認識我那個比如大陸可能用X我也不知道他用Q就是倩綺這兩個字在"},{"start":363.562,"end":366.224,"text":"接下來是不是有誰可以來協助我們一下那下一頁"},{"start":389.797,"end":411.508,"text":"這個是羅馬拼音我們先不要管他什麼意思那是不是有人可以不知道是袁明慧還是文化部的次長我們要測試一下還是那個彭書長這無所謂對錯啦無所謂對錯不知道大家這個有哪一位願意還是我們要袁明慧的副處長來跟大家分享一下這應該是阿梅語因為我不是阿梅語"},{"start":412.468,"end":425.46,"text":"那羅馬拼音你們應該是用羅馬拼音嗎?中英的部分可能會跟阿美語原來的中英的部分不標準。是是是。按照他我認識的那個拼音符號他就﹝阿美語原來的中英的部分不標準﹞謝謝很好。"},{"start":435.679,"end":452.104,"text":"接下來大概是這樣子的一個概念這個當然是有一些問候語跟問話你會不會主語你今天好不好然後你家怎麼樣所以這個系統我們知道是龍馬拼音那我可以請教你一下龍米後面那個標點符號標在那邊後面這個標點符號的它的重點在哪裡那個問號問號嗎不是標點符號那個龍米"},{"start":464.383,"end":464.523,"text":"當你們考到這個高級、優級"},{"start":489.415,"end":506.748,"text":"就有族語教師反映說每一年的那個標點符號都不一樣欸去年這樣子可以今年這樣子不可以那他們無所適從那我相信你們知道的問題就是我們16種語言47個語系嘛那今天阿美組好了可能是男士阿美當考官結果他說秀姑娘阿美你這個逗點不對"},{"start":507.569,"end":510.73,"text":"接下來我們要講就是教具、教材還有環境教材目前應該是9階那我就建議大家可不可以納入多元的教材、歌謠的教材那可以在原民會裡面"},{"start":531.536,"end":546.055,"text":"包括語法會還有原文會發展的部分一起來做原住民跟歌謠是不可分的如果我們照這樣子念其實很多人可以學個架構但是精神、邏輯、概念、文化學不到"},{"start":546.856,"end":547.177,"text":"字幕提供"},{"start":563.757,"end":564.158,"text":"最後呢,我們講那個"},{"start":592.541,"end":599.444,"text":"教學師資年齡上我們知道65歲你主語教師雖然你們大家說現在主語教師已經專職但是呢很麻煩的是主語教師其實65歲以上也就沒辦法再教了那我們知道大部分的語言其實很多其他老師可以傳承的就算現在在教室現場"},{"start":614.189,"end":636.92,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":637.32,"end":637.641,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":664.822,"end":684.779,"text":"我剛才講那個最優那個等級的老師那這個是不是請各部會能夠來研議一下那最後是語言的分配正義最重要是我們也是要拯救冰違的語言那我以前就碰到那個有人跟我說我都說台語你能不能跟我說為什麼我叫做某一某一族這樣子"},{"start":685.499,"end":710.756,"text":"他可能語言都不見了可能只剩下記點所以我們鼓勵大家來參與這樣怎麼講呢我以前學德文的時候我問德國老師說你為什麼會來台灣那時候台灣只有九族他跟我說我來研究賽德克族賽德克族那是哪裡來的然後他說這是在泰雅族裡面某一些雅族當時他的回應是如此外國人比我們更清楚台灣的語言體系所以"},{"start":711.616,"end":728.128,"text":"我們推動國際認證的這件事情是不是應該趕快做所以當有一些濒為的語系或者是他只剩下一句話的族群或許有人可以救回來那當然很重要的是我們的主管單位是文化部就如同那個部長所講的文化"},{"start":728.968,"end":729.348,"text":"謝謝,感謝各位"}]}},{"id":"153676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5390286f9759ad703f3bd234b5abfe8c98282b1d5b897dd1c235d1795ffdf2ae75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:47:20 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有請顧部長來 部長請羅委員好部長好部長 自從您520上任以來呢已經發生兩起這個國軍自傷的這個事件如果說我們往前推到今年初的話包含中科院在內"},{"start":26.267,"end":52.666,"text":"其實已經發生了18起的這個自傷事件那其實我們國防部在2016年以來一直強調就要讓軍中零自傷可是我們從2017年到今年的5月我們發現國軍總計有134人自殺身亡所以我們不禁要問到底我們的這個輔導機制哪裡出了問題是不是失靈了而且是不是要做通盤的這個檢討那是否我們要制定一個更有效的這個"},{"start":53.386,"end":53.626,"text":"：羅美玲議員"},{"start":69.113,"end":69.153,"text":"﹚羅美玲議員﹚"},{"start":90.37,"end":91.391,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":108.547,"end":125.24,"text":"如果真的都有做到心理輔導讓這個官兵都心理的這個因素可以被紓解的話我在想這麼多年以來不會每一年都有十幾二十起的這個官兵智商的事件發生那我們從這個初級發掘預防這個部分像我們這個初級發掘預防是由來負責呢就是由各級的基層領導幹部來負責也就是說我們的輔導長那輔導長的工作是什麼呢"},{"start":137.27,"end":150.588,"text":"不是單單只有進行這個心理輔導而已,他還有政戰業務,他還有公文的處理,他還要保密防諜等等,是不是真的有辦法去發覺他身邊的同袍,其實心裡產生了這個需要協助的這個問題?"},{"start":155.194,"end":155.494,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":180.936,"end":181.076,"text":"請國防部長"},{"start":208.305,"end":231.175,"text":"我先跟委員說明,因為詹再吉跟我報告都很多次了,那我個人的一個想法就是說第一集的部分他基本上經濟因素、感情因素、或者是家庭因素等等的那這些跟他同儕的這些人,跟他同儕"},{"start":232.495,"end":250.163,"text":"同儕的這些同袍他可能比較容易發覺他的相關的這些可能的一些異常的狀況那我覺得這些同儕也好或者是跟他比較接近的這些士官也好他們如果能夠"},{"start":251.303,"end":280.114,"text":"通報然後來進行一個防處的話我們必須要給他獎勵那要提供一個誘因給他讓這個同儕跟這個士官們能夠在第一層做好那第二層的專業輔導的部分確實如委員所講的就是說我們具有正道的辛苦能力還不足那我個人覺得就是說我們要引進民間的能量引進民間能量也就是說要"},{"start":281.834,"end":308.464,"text":"因為有一些人他不願意跟我們的本身的辛苦員來做那個因為可能他感受到可能部隊會給他異樣的眼光這樣所以他如果要到民間去做諮商的話我個人覺得在這個部分應該要提供一個資源讓他到民間去做這樣這是我初步兩點想法那詳細還有很多的狀況如果可以的話是請鄭蘭菊做一個"},{"start":310.625,"end":317.45,"text":"委員好,我是政戰局局長,跟委員報告,我們第一級初級防處的部分,並不是全部都是由這個政戰府老長來負責,我們的基層的這個排班的幹部,他們都是我們第一級,就是"},{"start":329.278,"end":332.419,"text":"預防發掘的重要的這個守門員那我們有匯整了相關就是維安防處的徵後有12大類包含家庭婚姻精神等等方面提供給他們做參考那另外鏈結民間新府資源提供給我們的官兵多一層的選擇我們今年有鏈結116所我們會努力去做當然發生這樣遺憾的事情我們深切的在檢討"},{"start":359.008,"end":359.048,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":376.434,"end":376.474,"text":"：羅美玲議員"},{"start":401.805,"end":422.994,"text":"其實像這些在輔導他們的這些其實也是這些官兵的長官也許他們覺得說反正我反應也沒有用因為問題就是來自於這個長官所以其實我有一個建議其實我想國防大學跟國防部正在學院中心過去也都有到美國去做取經像美國美國他這個"},{"start":425.055,"end":447.746,"text":"不像台灣這樣子,他這個國軍很大部分有時是用征戰來兼任,他們的這些心腹人員大部分都是屬於軍醫體系,而且大部分臨床心理人員都是在軍醫院來做服務,你們所說的這個由這個民間來兼任,那有沒有要走美國的這個方式,就是他們有所謂的軍務嗎?"},{"start":449.349,"end":449.609,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":464.793,"end":467.014,"text":"國防大學跟國防部都已經去過美國取經了為什麼美國的這個制度我們沒有辦法辦法來做研擬了這部分我想我們會馬上來推動這樣子的一個那另外有關"},{"start":491.179,"end":503.706,"text":"委員我補充報告一下我們3級的這個機制裡面我們所有軍醫院的身心科跟精神科的這個醫生專業醫生所以馬局長有時候連二級都走不到了對不對所以你們第一級就出問題了所以你們第一級就出問題了可能有時候要從第一"},{"start":511.09,"end":517.374,"text":"我真的覺得這個真的要通盤來做檢討到底我們的這個輔導機真的出了問題林智商其實就是一個很好笑的口號因為時間的關係所以其實我們還有事後的處理是不是需要第三方的調查機制我下次再跟部長來做這個檢討我們會後再跟委員請議謝謝委員謝謝羅美玲委員來部長請"}]}},{"id":"153675","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153675","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5e9330261af7fedc579f99d17e212a4183d3daa592b5b2cb02c0accd11298d9845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:36:11 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09:49:01","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:36:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:49:01+08:00","duration":770,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-20"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":306,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時36分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員早安，我也想請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝部長。剛剛有提到小朋友對於空污這樣子事關重大的影響，身為不孕症醫師，同時我也是不孕症病人，其實今年最新的期刊顯示空污也嚴重影響不孕症以及各種癌症，相關資料我再提供給您。昨天6月5日是世界環境日，我也想請問一下部長，環境部有什麼重要的宣示嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們要減少菸蒂，全國撿菸蒂的大聯盟成立。"],["陳委員菁徽：這樣子你們會不會覺得很適合跟衛福部一起配合？"],["彭部長啓明：有，昨天衛福部賈淑麗副署長有來，但是我們希望更多啦！昨天我們是跟文化部合作，未來應該會跟衛福部合作。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，昨天是世界環境日，前天6月4日環境部發了一則臉書，表示會持續協助地方政府妥善處理垃圾問題，可是我覺得很疑惑，因為你們的標題是寫「焚化為主，掩埋為輔」，以此做為slogan。剛剛已經有多位委員反映空污的問題，為什麼我們還要再把「焚化為主」這件事情特別來做強調？"],["彭部長啓明：其實是針對資源回收完的、沒有辦法變成回收的垃圾去做焚化的處理，一年大概是六百多萬噸。"],["陳委員菁徽：但針對源頭的話，剛剛也提到了，其實減少垃圾遠比後面的處理還重要對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：對，其實我們回收的比例本來就很高，只是真的沒有辦法回收之後，只好以焚化來處理啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：針對這個slogan，如果可以給一點建議的話，當然還是從源頭管理才是最主要的，接下來才是以焚化為主、掩埋為輔嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然今天我們也有討論廢棄物，可是我們從100年到112年，全國一般廢棄物總生產量是每年都在創新高，所以平均每人每日的一般廢棄物產生量，從0.8公斤到現在的1.359公斤。剛剛一直講到源頭管理，你想要跟很多協力廠商做配合等等，從100年到112年，這樣子的源頭管理成效到底如何？問題出在哪裡？反而是年年都在增加啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實從這裡面你可以看得出來，回收之後的資源垃圾量也增加很多，然後一般垃圾量也在增加，其實最主要是一般垃圾量，也就是國人習慣的改變，當然我不能推給國人生活習慣改變，其實算法是一個很大的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：你覺得最主要是哪一個習慣在改變？"],["彭部長啓明：網購。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以增加的是包裝？"],["彭部長啓明：包括包裝、外送等等的生活型態的改變、外食的改變，在這幾年改得特別嚴重，但其實最大的一筆還是所謂算法的改變。報告委員，其實這裡面包含我們原來把一般公司的員工廢棄物，就是員工吃飯造成的廢棄物，以前都是算成事業廢棄物，現在都算進來一般廢棄物了，然後還有我們把包含……"],["陳委員菁徽：可是不管是一般廢棄物或是事業廢棄物，各種廢棄物都升高。"],["彭部長啓明：基本上我們以前沒有算成我們的，所以我們把那個算進來，我們算法算得更精準，所以就升高了，這個才是現實。"],["陳委員菁徽：那也給您看一下，因為0403地震的關係，所以大家的手機都有收到這個訊息，大家都知道我們的玉山變矮了，變矮5公分，這是一個地質的現象，但是就有很多新聞標題寫說玉山變矮了，可是各地的垃圾山反而一直在長高。現在中南部的情況很嚴重，剛剛也有委員提到，因為有一些垃圾場鄰近於水源，比如說雲林、臺南、南投等等的，還有可能會造成水源的污染。請問部長，對於這樣子有什麼解方或是想法嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我有兩個，一個是傳統的垃圾山，我們傳統舊的垃圾山，現在大概都有把它掩埋起來，然後都有做一些處理，當然還是有一些有問題，我必須承認，但是委員剛剛這張圖是暫置場，等於它還是要拿去燒的……"],["陳委員菁徽：對。"],["彭部長啓明：但是這個處理得應該沒有很好，應該把它打包起來，不會有這種惡臭飄散或是火災。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。當然剛剛有提到說，我們看到環境部2023年永續發展的目標，自願檢視報告中，短期的策略是2023到2027減量回收及資源循環推動計畫，這個短期目標要怎麼樣做到減量回收？因為上一任的部長有做到，我們全臺灣有42個市場有在推禁止用一次性的塑膠袋，像這樣子的政策，你會想要把一些政策再做擴大或是延續，把一些政策收起來嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不會的，但是我也必須說，我們環境部過去在推動，在大的賣場都很成功，塑膠袋都要花錢買，最後一哩路就是市場，但是市場跟每個民眾都有關，所以我跟我同事討論之後，大概我們希望用別的方式，希望由文化改變的方式、習慣改變的方式。因為報告委員，我們其實推的時候，很多媒體就會說「你看你看又要收錢了，生活多麼不便，我買個菜、買個魚都不能用塑膠袋，我很不方便」，這個負面的聲音一直出來，但是我們覺得其實國外就是慢慢這樣在進行，我們也沒有限制，包含生鮮的部分還是可以用，只不過要減量。"],["陳委員菁徽：這部分其實您想，之前環境部當初推不提供一次性餐具等等，也是有非常多人抱怨，但是現在大家都已經習慣了，所以其實部長您只要下定決心就可以了。"],["彭部長啓明：那委員也要支持我，這個要大家一起來支持，因為我們有時候遭遇到大家說我很不方便，他只要訪問幾個婆婆媽媽說「你以後去市場買菜沒有塑膠袋怎麼辦」，那負面的聲音就會湧到我們這邊來……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們會支持部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個是環境部小編，我不知道這個數據，當然我還會再詳查這個數據是哪裡來的，但是他說每年投入90億來做源頭管理跟資源回收，可是民間團體綠色和平其實也有去拜訪您，也有拜訪我們許許多多的委員，它計算7年的平均，在垃圾末端處理每年平均是17億，可是源頭管理才0.8億，竟然連1億都不到，用在比如說之前環境部在推的、署長也非常熟的禁限用一次性用品、推廣循環杯等等，其實源頭跟末端的處理，我們花的預算整整差距22倍，所以這樣子的比重是不是應該要去做調整？因為處理垃圾的預算分配有問題嘛，你源頭管理是不是應該要更加提高才對？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個0.8億是我們環境部的預算，這個90億應該是包含了資源回收等等基金的預算……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們資源回收一年是花89.2億耶？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：對，跟委員報告，因為它有信託基金跟非營業基金，我們現在有公告14項資源回收處理業，我們都會進行補貼，讓我們的塑膠品還有電器能夠回收。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，我覺得這個方向是對的。最後，我們也想問一下，2050年淨零碳排入法是長久以來國發會幫我們制定的一個目標，可是我們看數據，30年以來我們的碳排放量從1992年的1.32億公噸一直到今天是2.75億噸，根本是翻倍成長，您對於2050淨零碳排的目標還樂觀嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：說真的不樂觀，我不是說臺灣不樂觀，全世界都不樂觀，那臺灣我覺得挑戰更大，所以這一定要彎道超車，這個就是我願意來接這份工作的原因。所以委員其實這個數字，我自己是非常積極想要做這個事……"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝部長今天吃了誠實豆沙包，所以你勇於承擔，很感動。"],["彭部長啓明：因為這件事情是要國人生活的改變，所以我們包含對於能源的概念都要改變很大……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你會幫自己設定一點點短期的目標，比如說我們的碳排量可以稍微趨緩，這樣子的目標嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上要把我們現在所有的能源結構跟我們的能源供給以及我們的需求，都要把它公布出來，讓大家很清楚知道，我們不能夠用原來的方式，例如說，我們都要用發展那麼多的AI的機器，那個耗電量就比平常的多了那麼多，我們需要這樣的產業嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以今天本席也提供您一個想法，因為淨零轉型有12個關鍵的戰略，其中一個是碳捕捉技術的利用跟封存，而這一點冰島做得非常好，因為他們一年可以移除3萬6,000噸的二氧化碳，大約等於8,600輛車子的碳排。所以當碳排是我們國家整個額外成本的時候，捕碳機就像我們的印鈔機一樣，環境部是不是有想要加入打造捕碳國家隊，然後會來規劃投入自主的發展，你有沒有這樣子的想法？這個是我為了上一頁，所以幫您一起想方法。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，全球都在關注這個碳捕捉，但是冰島它的天然條件特別好，水力特別好，還有地熱，它的電是排碳率很低的，所以在臺灣做這個就完全不適合，因為我們的電排碳係數很高，所以大家要一起努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是現在中油、台電都已經投身這樣的技術，我是很希望，因為之前我們也互相質詢過這個光電板、環評，很多都已經落到經濟部在主導，所以我當然也很希望支持部長，環境部在主導上也可以多一點。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們會積極地來跳脫原來大家設定的環境部的角色，我們主動地跟各部會協調……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，因為其實這方面您的專業知識一定是更豐富，您也應該要更投入相關技術的研發、補貼等等的。"],["彭部長啓明：這個主要是在國科會，那我們會跟國科會有一個跨平臺的小組來討論這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。最後稍微問一下很多民眾關心的議題，因為碳費這個議題已經吵了很久，但是定價一直都還沒有出來，我知道第三次審議會你們有聊到，你們最後的結論是說要自主管理，或者是說你們給它訂一個指定目標，我看最後的會議紀錄是這樣，7月還會再開第四次的審議會。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是國際的航空組織ICAO，它會想要訂降低航空公司的淨零目標，因為航空公司的碳排放占全球的排放量大約是2.1%，所以許多國人，因為他們會到鄰近的國家旅遊，所以他們會很關心說，你有沒有去關切ICAO他們大概制定的碳費會在多少？會不會影響到國人出遊的旅遊成本？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們國籍的航空公司，特別是譬如說我們有一家國籍的航空公司，他們就做得非常的認真，已經開始在用所謂的生質燃料，在做這樣的事，它的碳排也有顯著的降低，在永續的指標都做得很好，但是現在搭飛機就屬於個人願意去加一點做成碳中和，至於航空公司這部分，我們會密切注意來確保他們的營收。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。我會和大家一起關切我們第四次審議會的結論。謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-20","speakers":["黃秀芳","盧縣一","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","王正旭","賴惠員","牛煦庭","林淑芬","廖偉翔","洪申翰","劉建國","陳冠廷","林俊憲","陳瑩","葉元之","楊曜","王育敏","鍾佳濱","涂權吉"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長就「廢棄物暫存量逐年攀升，廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.03846875,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.649093750000002,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.138468750000001,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.000968750000002,"end":31.637843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.671593750000003,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.789718750000002,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.92471875,"end":31.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.62471875,"end":41.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.88096875,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.242843750000006,"end":52.782218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.900343750000005,"end":56.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.61284375,"end":56.916593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.119093750000005,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.67909375,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.57721875,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.19971875,"end":108.50346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.84096875,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.06034375,"end":116.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.48534375000001,"end":122.79659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.79659375000001,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.03284375000001,"end":132.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.84596875,"end":131.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.56721875,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.28409375,"end":135.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.50346875,"end":145.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.66221875000002,"end":158.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.18346875,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.38784375,"end":177.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.42096875000001,"end":177.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.79221875000002,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.09784375,"end":193.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.44784375,"end":196.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.06784375,"end":199.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.53159375,"end":200.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.40471875,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.91096875000002,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.68721875,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.58659375000002,"end":224.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.50596875000002,"end":229.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.27346875,"end":232.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.41659375,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.30221875,"end":235.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.87159375000002,"end":236.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.32659375000003,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.50596875000002,"end":255.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.61971875,"end":264.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.29346875000005,"end":277.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.89471875000004,"end":281.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.55659375,"end":305.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.41909375,"end":298.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.29596875000004,"end":302.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.04221875,"end":306.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.95346875,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.73346875000004,"end":342.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.21784375000004,"end":382.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.22034375000004,"end":381.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.36784375,"end":396.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.84346875,"end":390.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.44659375000003,"end":391.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.35284375000003,"end":412.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.20284375,"end":413.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.50221875000005,"end":414.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.70471875000004,"end":459.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.77346875,"end":466.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.55721875,"end":469.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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那當然剛有提到說我們看到環境部2023年永續發展的目標自願檢視報告中短期的策略是2023到2027減量回收及資源循環推動計畫這個短期目標要怎麼樣做到減量回收因為"},{"start":324.604,"end":342.265,"text":"在上一任的部長他有做到說我們全臺灣有42個市場有在推禁止用一次性的塑膠袋像這樣子的政策你會有想要把一些政策再做擴大或是延續把一些政策收起來嗎?"},{"start":343.394,"end":366.201,"text":"報告委員不會的齁但是我也必須說我們環境部在過去在推動在大的賣場都很成功那個都要花錢買最後一例就是市場但是市場跟每個民眾都有關所以我跟我同事討論之後其實大概我們希望用別的方式希望文化改變的方式習慣的改變方式因為我們報告委員我們其實推的時候"},{"start":366.561,"end":368.603,"text":"我們也沒有限制,包含生鮮的部分還是可以用只不過要減量"},{"start":383.359,"end":396.85,"text":"其實您想您當初推就之前環境部當初推一次性就不提供餐具等等也是有非常多人抱怨但現在大家都已經習慣了所以其實部長您只要下定決心就可以了"},{"start":397.403,"end":413.118,"text":"那委員要支持我喔這個要大家一起來支持啦但因為這個我們有時候遭遇到大家的說啊我很不方便他只要訪問幾個婆婆媽媽說你以後市場沒有垃圾袋你怎麼塑膠袋你怎麼辦那這個負面的聲音就會湧到我們這邊來好我們會支持部長"},{"start":414.258,"end":429.628,"text":"這個是環境部小編我不知道這個數據當然我還會再詳查這個數據是哪裡來但是他說每年投入90億來做源頭管理跟資源回收可是呢這個綠色和平民團其實他也有去拜訪您"},{"start":430.188,"end":458.346,"text":"也有拜訪我們許許多多的委員他計算7年的平均在垃圾末端處理每年平均是17億可是源頭管理才0.8億竟然連1億都不到用在比如說之前環境部在推的就是署長也非常熟的近現用一次性用品推廣循環杯等等其實源頭跟末端處理我們花的預算是整整差距22倍"},{"start":459.927,"end":479.815,"text":"所以這樣子的比重是不是應該要去做調整因為處理垃圾預算分配有問題嘛你源頭管理是不是應該要更加提高才對報委員這個0.81是我們環境部的預算那這個90億應該是包含了包含資源回收等等的包含基金的等等的預算所以我們資源回收一年是花89.2"},{"start":482.216,"end":496.383,"text":"對,他是有那個根本報告就是他有信託基因跟肺炎基因那我們現在就是有公告14項他進了處理業都是我們都會進行補貼好讓我們的塑膠瓶還有這個電器能夠回收是是是我覺得方向是對的那"},{"start":497.563,"end":522.572,"text":"最後我們也想問一下我們2050年淨零碳排入法是一個長久以來國發會幫我們制定的目標可是我們看數據30年以來我們從1992年的1.32億公噸碳排放一直到今天是2.75億噸根本是翻倍成長您對於2050淨零碳排的目標還樂觀嗎?"},{"start":524.974,"end":525.795,"text":"謝謝部長今天吃了誠實豆沙包"},{"start":544.546,"end":546.128,"text":"你會幫自己設定一點點短期的目標比如說我們可以稍微趨緩"},{"start":559.36,"end":577.841,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":577.881,"end":604.562,"text":"所以今天本席也提供您一個想法因為我們近臨轉型有12個關鍵的戰略其中一個是碳捕捉的技術利用跟封存而這一點冰島做得非常好因為他們一年可以移出36000噸的二氧化碳大約是等於8600輛車子的碳排所以當碳排是我們國家整個額外成本的時候補碳機就像我們的印鈔機一樣環境部是不是有想要加入這樣子"},{"start":605.743,"end":635.138,"text":"打造補碳國家隊然後來規劃投入自主的發展你有沒有這樣子的想法這個是我為了上一頁所以幫您一起想方法我們這個在全球都在關注這個碳補桌但是冰島它這個天然條件特別好水力特別好還有地熱所以它的電是排炭力很低的所以在臺灣做這個就完全不合因為我們的電排炭係數很高所以大家要一起努力"},{"start":636.018,"end":655.563,"text":"但是現在您對於這個中油啊臺電啊都已經投身這樣子的技術了我是很希望因為之前我們也互相質詢過這個光電板啊環評很多都已經落到經濟部在主導所以我當然也很希望支持部長在環境部的主導上也可以多一點"},{"start":656.723,"end":679.478,"text":"對,幫我委員這個其實我們會積極的來跳脫原來大家設定的環境部的角色我們主動的跟各部會來協調對,因為其實這方面您的專業知識一定是更豐富嘛您也應該要更投入相關研發技術補貼等等的對,這個主要是在國科會啦那我們會跟國科會有一個跨平台的小組來討論這個事情"},{"start":681.071,"end":701.406,"text":"最後稍微問一下很多民眾關心的議題因為碳費這個議題已經吵了很久但是定價一直都還沒有出來那我知道說第三次審議會你們有聊到你們最後的結論是說要自主管理或者是說你們給他定一個指定目標我看最後的會議記錄是這樣7月還會再開第4次的審議會"},{"start":704.588,"end":725.788,"text":"但是呢國際的航空組織ICAO他會想要定降低航空公司的淨零目標因為航空公司的碳排放在全球的排放量大約是2.1%所以許多國人因為他們會在鄰近的國家旅遊所以他們會很關心說這個您有沒有去"},{"start":727.29,"end":744.747,"text":"關切這個ICO他們大概制定的碳費會在多少那會不會影響到國人出遊的那個成本旅遊成本好報偉那個我們我們國籍的航空公司特別是就是說我們有一家國籍航空公司他們就做得非常的認真他的已經"},{"start":745.427,"end":745.868,"text":"陳菁徽委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"153674","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153674","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d5b705faa3d0958eccd6a1f14e6772be7c3d3daa592b5b2cb0e7348e3b34fc23a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:33:14 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09:47:49","影片長度":"00:14:35","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案。【本案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、繼續併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「洗錢防制法修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員郭國文等16人擬具「洗錢防制法第五條及第六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「洗錢防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查行政院函請審議「科技偵查及保障法草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:33:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:47:49+08:00","duration":875,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":31,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-31"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時33分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：司法院今天是……"],["主席：李廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，今天有幾個問題來就教，最有名的一個大法官會議解釋，我相信法律人都耳熟能詳的就是釋字第631號，第631號整個解釋裡面，你把整個文件看完以後會看到，如果把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係列一個位階的話，這兩個來做比較，部長會把什麼列為是第一個位階？這問你就有趣了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：大法官釋字第631號解釋主要是對秘密通訊自由的涵攝範圍做一個釐清。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，所以我就問了，如果你把人民的權利跟刑事訴追的關係來排列位階的話，第一個位階當然一定是憲法保障的基本人權，第二個才會是刑事訴追的立意。從幾號的大法官會議解釋都可以看到，變成隱私權跟秘密通訊這樣的自由其實就是一個普世價值，我相信應該各位都可以來認同，但要怎麼樣去限制它？第一個，你必須要合理或正當，整個通訊的監察，從過去1999年通保法裡面，檢察官去得到授權進行通訊監察，到現在授權偵查機關也必須要由檢察官向法院來聲請令狀，其實這個都在表明國人跟執行機關對於通訊自由的重視。我今天為什麼特別會提出來？就是延續著昨天對法務部跟司法院的詢問，有幾個概念裡面，其實我倒覺得我們今天在審查這樣一個條文，大法官釋字第631號還是一個很重要的基石，今天涉及到整個監察的情況，比如說事中的監察、事後的監察，這個都很重要，我看在解釋文裡面也講得非常清楚，這個涉及到比一般的強制處分還要更嚴重，就是我們今天的這些條文。","我昨天提出一個最可怕的，就是一般法院或司法機關在做強制處分的時候，人民還可以限時的知道，還可以行使一些防禦權，而這種屬於通信跟監察的範圍裡面，來無影去無蹤，神不知鬼不覺，所以過去我們歷次的修法裡面才會有這麼多的爭議，到了馬王政爭以後，整部法令又去翻修，到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的，你就一直監聽、監聽下去，到最後變成一人一狀，若要監聽特定人的，你就必須經過法院的核可。","我這次要再提出來的是，這個法令訂下去以後，我們最擔心的是，你在當事人，甚至於第三人毫不知情之下，會導致整個訴訟上的防禦沒有辦法去行使，連聲明不服的機會都沒有，這個在第631號解釋裡面都講得非常清楚。","我就來講這一次的重點，你把網路流量紀錄這個態樣加入變成可蒐集的證據部分以後，本法在第十五條又沒有跟著增訂整個告知的義務，我請教法務部長，對於沒有把網路流量紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼？我特別來請教。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個通知當然是為了救濟，但是是不是要給予通知救濟？我想這個是應該由司法院來……他們就會有通盤的考量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們從整個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑事訴訟法第四百十六條來提救濟，既然有必須要救濟的部分，這部分……"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，那我請教司法院李廳長，我是覺得你們這樣的解釋都不夠充分，其實我是把問題丟出來給你們，你們應該充分的跟社會來對話。你從憲法第二十二條就可以去引申出來，整個資訊的自主權，這個其實在釋字第603號和第689號解釋裡面都有去提到，明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的自主權，這個都屬於憲法保障上的權利。","因為昨天廳長也在，你們談到這個部分，你們都是在說我行政上的內控，你們一直在強調內控，可是你說個人的資料自主如果受到我剛剛提到大法官這樣的肯認的話，那你應該獲得相當的重視，所以我一直在強調這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題，但你們在第十五條裡面沒有跟著去做增訂，廳長，剛剛部長那個講法，你可以做補充嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：如果依照委員的說法，我是滿認同委員的說法，對人民的權益有任何侵害時，應該要給他救濟的機會。"],["莊委員瑞雄：法務部這次提出這個修法，我知道你們都立意良善，其實我在這個地方都是在提出提醒，你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權，你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微，這個部分其實我是不認同的，這個是一個基本權利保障的問題，你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候，對於姓名、身分證字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握，這些資料不是所謂的影響輕微，不然至少你們用字這個部分也不要這樣講，這個就不對喔！這次修法裡面，你看你的重點是修正第三條之一，訂了這個名詞「網路流量」，所以網路流量是不是涵攝在第三條所稱的「通訊」？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為我們認為只有使用者的資料，這是基本資料，是非常輕微的，其他對隱私權的干預，我們認為是要法官保留，所以我們認為是要經過許可的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對於這樣的講法，我是覺得這樣的講法都不夠清楚，我為什麼會這樣問呢？就是說如果算在通訊裡面，那你執行通訊監察的時候，等於是賦予調查機關未來可以調取網路流量的紀錄，那等同什麼呢？等同你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有人的網路流量紀錄，不是這樣嗎？法律效果就會變這樣啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其實我們這次修的第三條之一的網路流量，這個不是通訊的內容。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個不算通訊內容？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不算，這個不是，這只是一個數位的軌跡而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那個就是一個通訊內容。廳長，我來請教你的看法，這個我就跟部長的意見完全不一樣了。"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分，如果依照法務部提出來的相關定義，的確是不一樣，他把使用者的資訊跟通訊的紀錄，包括網路流量，是做了不同的定義。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那你要把它定成什麼？那它就不是受憲法保障的權利了？"],["李廳長釱任：它還是受憲法保障的權利。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是憲法哪一個部分的保障權利？"],["李廳長釱任：那還是個人資料的一部分，不過我跟委員報告，在目前相關的開戶資料，偵查機關經常會調取金融機構帳戶的開戶資料，對於偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的。至於後面相關所謂當事人覺得受侵害，怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話，也許透過第四百十六條相關的準抗告程序的擴張解釋，應該是可以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：扯遠了，有點扯遠了。我的意思是，如果這個法條你把它訂下去的話，會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量紀錄？會不會？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分可能是不是請……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個這麼簡單的問題，你們不能再推來推去。"],["李廳長釱任：當然是會增加……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說嘛！到最後變成強制整個電信業者必須要把網路流量的紀錄做保存，這個很可怕，我是覺得這個很可怕，要再跟社會講清楚，整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督機制，都沒有在法律層次裡面去做訂定。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其實在第三條之一就有列舉6項的流量紀錄，這個很清楚，只有列舉的這6項流量紀錄才需要保存……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以就變成強制啦！現在在業者現行保存規範裡面，你們也沒去做說明啊！你看這條對於網路流量紀錄的定義，從網域的名稱到協定的資料裡面，就變成我就可以知道使用者進去哪一個網頁、用了什麼app，其實就是瀏覽紀錄的一部分了嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個裡面的內容，譬如說我們不能直接到人家的網址去看人家的內容，我們現在調的網路流量紀錄僅限譬如說我們只用一個網域，就是說我去查臺北市大安區……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我當然知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：至於網址裡面的門牌號碼第幾號，那個我們是沒辦法，那是另外一個通訊要去處理的問題，不是調取……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是說你這樣整個……對於這些電信業者，就等於你強制它必須要去做一個留存了啦！這很可怕，你知不知道？我就跟你說，譬如像內政部，我們政府機關常常有一些個人隱私的資料會外洩，你這個下去之後，就變成會壯大蒐集整個個資數量跟類型，到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料分析。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，像目前的通訊紀錄，本來這些電信業者就有在保留了，因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化，用傳統門號的那種詐騙方式已經變成不是那麼重要，現在整個網路的詐騙變多了，所以我們才有這一條，其實就等於像我們門號的通聯紀錄而已，而且我們限縮在列舉那6種的網路流量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！你去看我們整個通保法，為什麼到最後要採令狀，那採令狀也不是什麼罪，你都可以去監聽，針對重大類型的犯罪耶！這個我再一次來講，連這個部分法官保留，我都覺得會養出另外一頭巨獸。召委，不好意思，我後面剩幾句話。我再次提出叮嚀一下，昨天講很多東西，我相信不同政黨的委員也都有去提到，你們動不動就講說內控會用行政監督，我現在講的是你這些資料的保存、業者的監督、業者保存的範圍，你根本就看不到內控，你行政監督怎麼去管理啦？我擔心的是這個。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個草案有規定一定要訂子法，在第十四條之一，這是一個子法的，在第六項要訂子法。另外，委員關心這些的問題，在第十四條之一都有做相關的規定，我想這部分可以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：細部的我會再跟你就教啦！我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念，你強制業者了以後，它保存了以後，假設我是駭客，我又把你給侵入了，你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪，到最後等於就把龐大國人的網路流量紀錄交給別人來做掌管，如果遭到外洩的後果又非常的嚴重。網路流量其實也會去紀錄到當中的IP啊！如果遭到外洩、取得位置，發動一些網路詐騙的話，甚至駭入整個電腦的話，一個問題又產生一個問題出來。"],["鄭部長銘謙：資安的這個問題，我們在子法以及內控機制會做要求，保存的方式、避免被駭客入侵這部分在子法我們會做嚴格的要求。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我從昨天到現在的用語都是說再考慮一下，看是不是可以把整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分再去做考量，我再一次再提出來，總是要提醒啦！雖然是執政黨的，但是我看了以後，我把我的疑慮、憂慮再提出來，跟你們做個提醒，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝部長、廳長。","接下來有請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-31","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","沈伯洋","吳思瑤","陳冠廷","翁曉玲","吳宗憲"],"page_start":229,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第31次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)行政院函請審議「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「通訊保障及監察法部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1135701_00008"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.810343750000001,"end":17.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.027843750000002,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.42409375,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.37284375,"end":27.773468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.785968750000002,"end":30.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.895343750000002,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.13971875,"end":44.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.81721875,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.11659375,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.65221875,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.53909375,"end":70.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.80471875,"end":70.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.13346875,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.44409375000001,"end":88.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.16909375,"end":103.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.35221875,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.63284375,"end":124.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.10846875000001,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.50909375,"end":164.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.44409375,"end":186.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.10721875000002,"end":197.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.90721875,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.53909375,"end":207.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.59346875,"end":213.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.65159375000002,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.60034375,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.57034375,"end":220.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.29596875000001,"end":224.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.14346875,"end":266.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.51659375,"end":271.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.12346875000003,"end":284.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.26909375,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.36596875000004,"end":286.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.18846875,"end":304.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.23659375,"end":304.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.79346875000005,"end":304.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.46846875,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.80596875000003,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.85659375,"end":306.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.10971875,"end":306.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.19409375000004,"end":306.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.62846875,"end":307.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.02721875000003,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.19534375,"end":338.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.67846875000004,"end":357.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.73034375000003,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.42159375,"end":365.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.92721875,"end":369.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.48784375,"end":372.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.10346875000005,"end":386.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.70034375,"end":388.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.45534375,"end":398.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.22159375,"end":418.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.17659375000005,"end":448.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.47534375000004,"end":461.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.89971875000003,"end":466.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.33346875,"end":491.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.59971875,"end":491.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.92034375000003,"end":492.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.89909375,"end":501.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.77096875,"end":507.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.02346875,"end":511.30971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.01846875,"end":514.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.6003437500001,"end":523.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.7297187500001,"end":529.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.9734687499999,"end":529.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.99034375,"end":533.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不知鬼不覺所以過去我們歷次的一個修法裡面會有這麼多的爭議那你到了馬王政爭以後"},{"start":221.365,"end":235.961,"text":"整部法律院又去翻修到最後就變成本來是相關卡到的你就一直監聽監聽下去嘛到最後變成說一人一狀一人一個你要監聽特定人的你就必須要經過法院的一個核可"},{"start":236.582,"end":265.698,"text":"那我這一次要再提出來了就是說我們這個法令定下去以後我們最擔心的就是說你在當事人甚至於第三人毫不知情之下會導致整個訴訟上的一個防禦沒有辦法去行使連聲明不符的機會都沒有啦這個是在631解釋裡面都要講得非常清楚啦那這一次的重點我就要來講啦就是說網路流量記錄這個太陽你把它加入這個變成可收集的一個證據的部分以後啊"},{"start":266.246,"end":286.162,"text":"那我們本法在第15條又沒有去跟著修訂整個增訂整個告知的一個義務啦那我請教法務部長就是說對於沒有把網路流量這個紀錄也列入告知義務的考量到底是什麼我特別來做請教"},{"start":288.52,"end":304.603,"text":"這個通知當然是為了一個救濟但是是不是說要給予通知救濟那我想這個是應該有司法院來就會有通盤的一個考量這個怎麼會是司法院來特別通盤考量"},{"start":305.784,"end":323.042,"text":"這個是一個有爭議我們從整個這個是因為目前只有監聽用刑訴書416條來提救濟嘛那既然是有必須要救濟的這部分這部分我們是法務部好那我請教司法院那個女廳長"},{"start":325.236,"end":337.908,"text":"我是覺得你們這樣的一個解釋這個都不夠充分的其實我是把問題丟出來給你們你們應該充分的跟社會來做一個對話你從憲法第22條你就可以去引申出來"},{"start":338.837,"end":364.597,"text":"整個資訊的一個自主權這個在其實在釋之603號跟689號裡面解釋裡面都有去提到啦這明確去強調整個生活私密領域不受侵擾的自由跟個人資料的一個自主權這個都屬於憲法保障上的一個權利因為昨天啊聽長你也在你們談到這個部分你們都是在講說我行政上的內控你們一直在談在這個內控可是呢"},{"start":366.977,"end":386.537,"text":"你說個人的資料自主如果受到大法官這樣我剛提到這樣的肯認的話那你應該獲得相當的一個重視所以我一直在強調說這個告知的義務其實就是有救濟的問題嘛那你們在事務條裡面沒有跟著去做一個徵定聽著你剛部長那個講法你可以做補充嗎"},{"start":389.502,"end":397.977,"text":"如果依照委員的說法我是蠻認同委員的說法應該對人民的權益任何的侵害或是這個應該要給他有救濟的機會"},{"start":400.307,"end":428.693,"text":"法務部這次提出這個修法我知道你們都利益良善但是我在這個地方其實都是在提出提醒你們都認為這個是屬於通訊使用者的資料隱私權你們認為這個影響都變成較為輕微這個部分其實我是不認同的這個是一個基本權利的一個保障的一個問題你確實在調查一個犯罪嫌疑人的時候你說姓名、身分證、字號這些基礎資料調查一定會有所掌握"},{"start":429.353,"end":448.142,"text":"那這一些資料不是所謂的影響輕微啦我是覺得至少不然你們用字這個部分也不要這樣說你知道嗎也不要這樣說這個就不對喔那這一次修法裡面你看你重點是修正了三條字一定的這個名詞網路流量所以網路流量是不是含設在第三條所稱的一個通訊"},{"start":450.772,"end":464.259,"text":"跟委員報告齁因為我們認為那個只有使用者的資料這基本資料這是非常輕微那其他我們不認為就是說對隱私錢的一個干預我們認為是要法官保留所以我們認為是要經過許可的"},{"start":467.546,"end":490.472,"text":"我對這樣的講法我是覺得這樣都講法都不夠清楚了我為什麼會這樣問就是說如果算在通訊裡面那你執行通訊監察的時候等於是以賦予調查機關未來可以調查網路流量的一個記錄那等同是什麼呢你要去強制整個電信業者必須保存所有網路流量的記錄了不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":491.893,"end":513.822,"text":"法律效果就會變這樣啊。根委員報告其實我們這次修的那個三之一的那個網路流量這個不是通訊。這個不是通訊的一個內容。這個不算通訊內容。這個不算。這只是一個數位的一個軌跡。那個就是一個通訊內容。來來來聽長我來請教你的看法。這個我就跟部長的意見就完全不一樣了。"},{"start":515.677,"end":516.438,"text":"那你要把它定成什麼?"},{"start":516.438,"end":518.641,"text":"那他就不是受憲法保障的權利喔?"},{"start":533.96,"end":554.176,"text":"他還是受憲法保障的權利來來來那憲法哪一個部分的保障的權利那一個是個人資料的一部分那不過跟委員報告一下在目前的相關的開戶資料我想在我們在偵查機關經常會調取什麼金融機構的帳戶的開戶資料那對偵查手段來講是有一些必要性的那所以說後面的"},{"start":555.157,"end":576.348,"text":"這相關的所謂的當事人覺得受侵害怎麼去表示不服或是有一個救濟程序的話也許透過416條的相關的一個準抗告程序的擴張解釋應該是可以扯遠了有點扯遠了我的意思是說如果這個法條你把它定下去的話你會不會造成強制電視業者必須保存所有人的網路流量的一個紀錄"},{"start":578.868,"end":581.509,"text":"所以說嘛所以說嘛到最後變成強制你整個電信業者必須要把這個網路的流量的記錄把它做一個保存啊"},{"start":595.413,"end":620.372,"text":"這個很可怕我是覺得這個很可怕要再跟社會講清楚了整部法裡面資料保存的期限跟業者的監督的一個機制都沒有在法律層次裡面去做訂定跟委員報告其實在三條之一就是這些網路的流量紀錄是有列取六項的流量紀錄這個很清楚只有這六項的流量紀錄列取的才需要保存所以就變成強制啦"},{"start":622.333,"end":626.655,"text":"那你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你現在變成你在業者陷阱保存規範裡面 你們也沒去做說明啊你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 你看你這條對於網路瀏覽的記錄的定義 從網域裡面一個名稱到協定的資料裡面 你就變成說我就可以知道說使用者進去哪一個網頁用了什麼APP 那其實就是瀏覽記錄的一部分了嘛"},{"start":639.582,"end":640.323,"text":"我意思是說你要整包齁"},{"start":667.282,"end":683.308,"text":"告別電信業者立法院一定要強制他必須要去做一個留存了啦這很可怕你知道嗎我就跟你說你像比如說我們內政部我們政府機關常常有一些資料個人隱私的資料會外洩啊你這一個落後"},{"start":686.246,"end":701.29,"text":"你就變成我們整個這個會壯大收集整個各自數量跟那個類型跟數量你這個到最後一定會養出更龐大的巨量資料的一個分析像目前的目前的通信記錄本來這些電信業者本就在保留了"},{"start":702.745,"end":727.37,"text":"那現在我們是增加因為現在詐團整個就是用網路化的現在用我們現在傳統那個門號的那種的詐騙方式他現在已經已經變成是不是居住那麼重要現在整個網路的一個詐騙變多了所以我們才有這一條其實這就是等於一個通聯的一個就像我們那個門號的一個通聯記錄而已而且我們限縮在列列舉的六種的一個一個網路的"},{"start":728.91,"end":754.299,"text":"一個流量的就限定他6個是嘛你去看我們整個通保法嘛為什麼到最後要採令狀那在採令狀你也不是什麼罪你都可以去監聽捏這針對重大類型的一個犯罪捏這齁我再一次來講啦齁再一次來講啦這個齁連這個部分法官保留齁我都覺得這會養出另外一頭巨獸"},{"start":759.516,"end":771.065,"text":"這個我再次提出叮嚀一下就是說昨天講很多東西我相信不同的政黨的委員也都有去提到你們動不動就講說內空會用行政監督"},{"start":772.096,"end":796.955,"text":"那我現在講的是說你這些資料的保存業者的監督業者保存的範圍你這根本就看不到內控你行政監督你怎麼去管理啦我擔心的是這個法律有明我規定這個草案有規定就是一定要定執法那個是在14條之一這是一個執法的在第6第6項第6項要定執法"},{"start":797.796,"end":814.707,"text":"那另外委員有關心的這些的問題這個在第14條之一都有做相關的一個規定我想這部分可以細部的我會再跟你就教啦我現在只是先跟你提出這些概念你強制的業者了以後那他本來保存了以後那保存了以後假設我是駭客啦"},{"start":815.808,"end":834.999,"text":"我又把你給侵入了啦你本來是為了要去打擊犯罪啦你就本一到最後把龐大國人的網路流量記錄交給別人來做一個掌管喔那個如果遭到外洩的這個後果又非常的嚴重你網路流量其實也會去記錄到當中的一個IP啊如果遭到外洩取得位置發動一些網路的一個詐騙的話甚至害入整個電腦的話說 說 一個問題還刪除一個問題出來勒"},{"start":841.397,"end":844.721,"text":"我從昨天到現在的用語都是講說再考慮一下看是不是可以把這個整個告知義務跟事後救濟的部分"},{"start":861.101,"end":871.973,"text":"再去做一個考量啦我要再一次再提出來總是要提醒啦雖然是執政黨的但是我看來以後我把我的疑慮憂慮再提出來讓你們做一個提醒好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0d7b1f4370c473d512dc2b6c47f4984ef3bd234b5abfe8c93d3daa592b5b2cb0ec6f0a0ad4d1e0835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:37:38 - 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09:43:59","影片長度":"00:13:18","會議時間":"2024-06-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力－『國家語言發展法』推動成效總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月5日及6日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-06","start_time":"2024-06-06T09:30:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-06T09:43:59+08:00","duration":798,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-15"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":124,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時30分）謝謝主席，第一個部分有請文化部部長和國教署署長。"],["主席：請李部長、彭署長。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席今天安排這個主題，我們辦公室一直在追蹤關於國家語言還有國家語言發展中心。賴清德總統在世界母語日談了三個非常重要的方向，分別是第一，成立國家語言發展中心；第二，健全國家語言的教育資源；第三，營造多元語言的友善環境。但是我不知道部長或者是署長，在你們相關的政策推動當中，如何去呼應這三個重要的方向？","第一個是關於名稱的問題，之前本席辦公室跟教育部這邊溝通過一個非常、非常重要的事情，而且有很大的困難，我們說在書面的語言上，甚至在課綱或者是非課綱相關的業務裡面，你們都沒有辦法把「閩南語」這三個字換成「臺灣台語」、「臺灣閩南語」或者是「台語」的相關用法，當時是有很多教授陳情跟投稿到論壇上面，可是我們在跟教育部溝通的過程當中發現很大的困難，你們的說法是說離島地區的地方政府認為有相關的問題，那我現在來放一段影片給部長看一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員培瑜：他剛才說「有夠水」，請問部長還有署長，我剛才說的是什麼話？他說「有夠水」，我剛才在說什麼話？部長，請先回答。"],["李部長遠：他講的應該是臺灣台語，或者我們也可以說台語。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長，你剛剛在回答洪孟楷委員的時候，你講台語，你現在用臺灣台語，OK，我可以接受。署長，「有夠水啦」，我在說什麼話？"],["彭署長富源：台語。"],["陳委員培瑜：台語嘛！你看，你也說台語嘛！主席，我可以冒昧問你一下，我剛才在說什麼話？"],["主席：台語。"],["陳委員培瑜：對。但是在教育部的相關書面文件，這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展，我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情？甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台，因為你們的回復說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究，可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年，已經調查過了耶！那文化部也有相關的建議，甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位，必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整，可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見，但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂臺灣台語這個用法。我們來看，在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說，我們相關的口音、相關的腔調都是同一個語系，其實並沒有太大的差異，所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整，或者是我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分，你們也沒有辦法快速調整，非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整？你們在很多業務活動、在很多學校第一線的現場，明明很多活動可以現場就調整，到底哪裡遇到了問題？署長，謝謝。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。有關課綱的部分，國教院在……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒有，課綱的部分我們不談，我可以接受你們目前覺得課綱很難即時地調整，我上一次的說法是說，非課綱的活動業務，第一線的所有公文往來，還有你們在做所有活動的時候，到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情，當然我們希望可以正名回到課綱，但是我覺得那個是短、中長期的工作規劃，可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線活動跟相關業務上，為什麼沒有辦法？剛剛部長也都說了，我在講台語，你也說我在講台語，主席也說我在講台語，大家都說我剛剛在講台語，為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員說明一下，整體在教育的施教過程中、學生學習的過程中，其中課綱所導引出來的教科書，相關的學習占滿大部分，尤其是高中以下的教育，因此部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程，除了在學生的學習，剛才你也講到例如相關的活動，甚至一些非關剛才講的，有關那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些正名或是統整，委員知道，在教育界，我們裡面的那個課綱，它目前在溝通的過程中……"],["陳委員培瑜：好！署長，我的時間有限，我等一下不想超時。"],["彭署長富源：它會影響到整個教育內……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個說法我們之前真的已經聽過了，那我再給你更多的數據告訴你，在國家語言發展報告裡面就已經調查過，社會上大部分人的共識，85%的共識告訴你，一般人稱它為台語，那要不要我告訴署長閩南語這個字是什麼時候生出來的？署長，你知道嗎？"],["彭署長富源：委員請說。"],["陳委員培瑜：當時在國民政府……我們小時候課本學的，所謂「國民政府播遷來臺」這8個字，小時候大家都會背，播遷來臺的時候，因為作為統治者的工具，他把臺灣列為是單獨一個省，然後日後要反攻大陸，我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西，所以臺灣就被定為閩南語這件事情，它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法，在臺灣主體性強調這麼多年之後，你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動。當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上，我們辦公室只是要再一次強調，在這件事情上，我們積極地想要跟教育部溝通，然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助，不管是透過文化部的角色，加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通，或者是在相關業務的推動上，到底有哪一些可以調整，這個部分因為我時間有限，是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論？包含目前共識的部分，我剛剛已經說了，相關的研究85%，而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了，教育部如何堅定立場，在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整。再來，修改閩南語為國家語言發展方案之建議書面用語這件事情，我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作，以上是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育及文化委員會的所有委員？"],["彭署長富源：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追，署長，你知道我們已經追很久了。","文化部長請回，謝謝李部長，謝謝。","關於師資的部分，剛剛洪孟楷委員也說了，那我就直接講重點，在很多的網路社群上，我們看到有老師是這樣告訴小孩的，說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種，不然後面會產生配課、排課、綁班……最後學生會因為學生團體活動時間跟直播共學時間不能配合，而必須自行跟直播的老師約補課的窘境。所以剛剛署長你說了，有直播很好，有數位學習很好，師資越來越多也很好，但是現場的困境是老師是這樣告訴小孩的；甚至還有說所謂直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間，還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語，這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的；甚至還有一個小學是語文資優班，他們甚至告訴學生說本土語言的時間你們不用來上課，我們不會排課，你們回家自學，但是因為他是語言資優班的小孩，每一個都可以通過相關考試。署長，你不要問我個別是什麼學校，我要講的是在學校的現場，不管是師資或是老師的心態，或者是排課的教務人員的心態，有非常、非常大的問題。","我們知道你們真的很努力在提升師資這個部分，真的要謝謝教育部，可是另外一個困境，我們來看一下南投，到底有什麼方法可以解決現場第一線的困境呢？以南投為例，他們在原住民語的部分，就詢問縣政府的承辦人員，在客語的部分就問鄰近的學校，然後再加上因為師資缺乏，甚至沒有經過教師甄試的也可以進來，好！沒關係，假設他在職提升我們也可以接受。可是我想要問一下，教育部有沒有機會連同客委會、原民會，還有地方政府、各級學校代表，把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成，讓各地方排課的老師、校長、主任，他們在需要找人的時候，可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性，甚至讓這些真的有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師知道，透過跑校、跑班，他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力，關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難？"],["彭署長富源：其實現行就有，只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中，我們來稍微看一下，剛才有三個，那三個裡面……"],["陳委員培瑜：現行就有，但是到底發生了什麼問題？"],["彭署長富源：對，所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下，但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["彭署長富源：會後可以到委員辦公室，再就一些脈絡跟委員報告。首先回到剛剛那三個，高中的部分如果排課的話，他排直播共學，他是要跟直播共學團隊，有600多個老師到800個老師，族語還有259個，除了可以線上之外，還可以實體教學的老師。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以看起來人數也是有的、語種也是有的……"],["彭署長富源：對，所以他會是用媒合。"],["陳委員培瑜：媒合機制也是有的，可是通常教育部的政策到了地方，一定會產生一些問題，那這個部分我們就一起來努力，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以如果人才資料庫已經有了，我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：那這個部分署長請回。","接下來要請文化部長，謝謝。文化部轄下有非常多相關的館所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動，我們來看一下，目前你們的規劃是這樣，文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務，文化部的這些館所依照自己的屬性、區域特色，結合新興媒體，這個是文化部一直在做的事情，我們在相關的活動裡面看到有「台語路」的朋友他們給我們的相關問卷提到，在活動現場，是國家語言活動的現場，不是華語活動的現場，台語活動講故事、台語活動做戲劇、台語活動做的所有演出，結果大部分在講台上的人、在做活動的人，他甚至不會全台語，他可能只有部分使用台語。不管是老師的部分或者是助教的部分或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境，我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上，一定有很多年輕人，甚至跟我年紀差不多的人，也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語，我想這個困境我們都認同，而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境，那到底我們可以怎麼做？我們就問了文化部，你們在相關的活動補助裡面，還有沒有其他增能的政策協助這些第一線的人，因為我們不能去質疑，我們也不要去罵第一線的人說他們做錯了，我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼，結果你們給我們的回復裡面，我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動、你們也補助了很多錢、你們有很多館所做了很有特色的事情，我們都認同，而且我們也肯定文化部的努力，但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制，甚至這些有心想要上場的講師，或者是做戲劇的人，他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好，或是自己的客語不夠好、自己的原民語不夠好，那他們到底可以做什麼，文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們？"],["李次長靜慧：跟委員報告一下，我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候，的確因為師資的來源或者是語言訓練的不夠，在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們儘量用台語，可是沒有比例上的要求，所以在第二年、下一個年度執行的時候會逐步地要求台語要達到一定的比例。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可是我們……"],["李次長靜慧：可是要怎麼達到這個比例？"],["陳委員培瑜：對。"],["李次長靜慧：委員您提醒的，所以我們會鼓勵同仁或者是這一些應邀來的師資，他們可以去上語言課程，然後也要有更多的語言課程……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，次長，我跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例，也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦，不要常常很多立法院或行政院的政策搞得第一線人仰馬翻。我們來看一個案例，這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展，內容都出來之後，首先，館方會提供所有展覽文字，當然是華文，由專業的人士翻譯為台語文並且錄音，讓工作人員學習有關的用字及發音；再安排研習課程，讓導覽人員閱讀台文版跟用台語表達工作內容，甚至會有專業人士提供標準版讓現場導覽人員、志工或者是講師有相關的對照參考，也就是case by case，如果今天有這個展，我就加強這些內容的學習，透過一個、一個的策展，透過一個、一個的活動，累積我的母語使用能力。我覺得這可能會讓現場的第一線工作人員感覺良好一點，也就是我們不是逼他無止境的上課，不是逼他漫無目的地上課，但是透過策展這件事情，拜託次長協助文化部所屬的各個館所更積極的培力及增能，好不好？"],["李次長靜慧：好，沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：也拜託有沒有機會在一個月內提供相關報告？"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["李次長靜慧：OK，好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席，國家語言我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，部長請回。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-15","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","林倩綺","萬美玲","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林俊憲","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","吳春城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","黃仁","陳冠廷"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-06"],"gazette_id":"1135902","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135902_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部部長李遠、教育部、原住民族委員會、客家委員會列席就「自信臺灣深根文化軟實力\n─ 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end":155.761,"text":"台語你看你也說台語嘛主席我可以冒昧問你一下我剛才在說什麼話台語但是在教育部的相關書面文件這件事情我們一直沒有辦法溝通獲得很大的進展我想要問一下到底發生了什麼事情甚至為什麼我要請文化部長上台因為你們的回覆當中下一頁你們的回覆說叫文化部幫你們再做一次研究可是明明上一次研究相關的論述是在2021年已經調查過了耶"},{"start":157.262,"end":166.99,"text":"那文化部也有相關的建議甚至行政院也有發函給所有二級單位必須要遵照行政院指示做相關的調整可是你們卻拿出離島地區的人有不同的意見但是離島地區的人也不是全面否定目前所謂台灣台語這個用法我們來看在離島地區的相關研究報告裡面也說"},{"start":177.899,"end":199.716,"text":"我們相關的口音相關的腔調都是同一個語系其實並沒有太大的差異所以我想要問一下教育部之所以沒有辦法在書面文字做調整或者是在我上一次已經提到非課綱的部分沒有辦法快速調 非課綱的部分為什麼也不能調整你們明明在很多業務活動在很多學校第一線的現場明明很多活動可以現場就調整到底哪裡遇到了問題"},{"start":201.667,"end":206.148,"text":"謝謝委員有關課綱的部分國教院課綱的部分我們不談我可以接受你們現在目前覺得課綱很難及時的調整我上一次的說法是說非課綱的活動業務第一線的所有公文往來還有你們在做所有活動的時候到底為什麼不能改成台語這件事情"},{"start":222.353,"end":237.021,"text":"當然我們希望可以證明回到課綱但是我覺得那個是短中程長期的工作規劃可是至少在非課綱的學校第一線的活動跟相關業務上為什麼沒有辦法剛剛部長也都說了我在講台語你也講我在講台語主席也講我在講台語大家都講在講台語為什麼你在這部分沒辦法做調整"},{"start":244.63,"end":263.46,"text":"整體在教育的施教的過程中學生學習的過程中其中課綱他所導引出來的教科書相關的學習占滿大部分尤其是高中以下的教育因此在部裡面整體在周延化這整個過程"},{"start":264.54,"end":283.331,"text":"除了在學生的學習,剛才您也講到例如相關的活動甚至一些非官剛才講的有關的那些課綱之外的是不是可以有一些證明或是在統整那剛才委員就可以知道在教育界我們裡面那個課綱他目前在溝通過程中他會影響到整個教育內"},{"start":289.955,"end":289.975,"text":"委員請說"},{"start":313.34,"end":336.076,"text":"當時在國民政府所謂我們小時候課本學的所謂國民政府破千來台這八個字小時候大家都會背破千來台的時候因為作為統治者的工具他把台灣列為是一個單獨一個省然後日後要反攻大陸我想小時候我們大家都背過這些東西然後所以台灣就被定為閩南語這件事情它基本上是一個政權統治工具的用法"},{"start":336.736,"end":355.771,"text":"在台灣主體性然後這麼多年強調之後但是你們卻遲遲不肯做調整跟更動當然今天我不會把所有壓力施加在署長身上我們辦公室只是要再一次強調我們在這件事情上我們積極想要跟教育部溝通然後我們也希望文化部真的可以協助不管是透過文化部的角色"},{"start":356.431,"end":386.051,"text":"加上教育部去跟地方政府溝通或者是在相關業務的推動上到底有哪一些可以調整下一頁這個部分因為我時間有限是不是我們之後就再繼續跟教育部還有文化部討論包含目前共識的部分我剛剛已經說了相關的研究85%而且是在國家語言發展報告裡面就講了教育部如何堅定立場在可行的日常業務政策規劃當中去做這個調整再來修改閩南語的國家語言發展方向之建議書面用語這件事情我覺得教育部要做更積極的動作以上"},{"start":386.472,"end":390.544,"text":"是不是可以在一個月內提供相關規劃報告給教育文化委員會所有委員?好的"},{"start":391.311,"end":418.078,"text":"好,那這一題我們辦公室會再繼續追喔,署長你知道我們已經追很久了好來,下一個,謝謝關於師資的部分那文化部長請回,謝謝李部長關於師資的部分剛剛洪孟凱委員也說了那我就直接講重點,我們來看下一頁在很多的網路社群上我們看到有老師老師是這樣告訴小孩的說同學不要用開玩笑的心態亂選本土語言的語種喔不然後面會產生配客、台客"},{"start":418.558,"end":435.213,"text":"總檢討"},{"start":435.353,"end":453.222,"text":"甚至還有說所謂直播共學是我們要配合作業學校團隊去協調出來的師資時間還有學校現有的師資就是閩南語這個都是在學生的社團裡面老師直接告訴學生的甚至還有一個小學是語文自由班他們甚至告訴學生本土語言的時間你們不用來上課我們不會排課你們回家自學"},{"start":455.643,"end":468.418,"text":"但是因為他是語言自由班的小孩每一個都可以通過相關考試署長你不要問我個別是什麼學校我要講的是在學校的現場不管是實質或者是老師的心態或者是排課的教務人員的心態有非常非常大的問題我們來往下看"},{"start":470.56,"end":496.529,"text":"那我們知道你們師資真的很努力在提升這個部分真的要謝謝教育部往下可是另外一個困境我們來看一下南投那到底有什麼方法可以解決現場第一線的困境呢以南投為例他們在原住民語的部分就詢問縣政府的承辦人員在客語的部分就問鄰近的學校所以然後再加上因為師資缺乏甚至沒有經過教室增試的也可以進來好沒關係假設他再次提升我們也可以接手好往下可是"},{"start":497.389,"end":524.958,"text":"我想要問一下教育部有沒有機會聯同客委會、原民會還有地方政府各級學校代表把相關的國家語言師資人才資料庫建置完成讓各地方的排課的老師、校長、主任他們在需要找人的時候他可以透過這個資料庫去做一個媒合的可能性甚至真的有心讓這些有心想要從事國家語言教學的老師他也知道他透過跑校跑班"},{"start":526.178,"end":549.179,"text":"他可以到更多地方去發揮他的影響力關於人才資料庫這個部分會不會有困難其實現行就有那只是在剛才委員講的幾個例子中我們來稍微看一下剛才有三格那三格裡面現行就有但是到底發生了什麼問題對所以我們要跟委員稍微細講一下但時間的關係也不允許我這樣細講是會後可以到委員辦公室再就一些脈絡跟委員辦公室"},{"start":549.96,"end":574.054,"text":"首先回到剛剛那三個,高中的部分如果排課的話他排直播共學他是要跟直播共學團隊有600多個老師到800個老師足以還有259個直接可以線上之外還可以實體教學的老師所以看起來人數也是有的,語種也是有的,然後媒合機制也是有的可是通常教育部的政策到的地方一定會產生一些問題那這個部分我們就一起來努力好不好"},{"start":574.434,"end":589.142,"text":"所以如果人才已經資料庫有了我們辦公室後續也會持續跟國教署討論好那這個部分署長請回接下來要請文化部長謝謝文化部轄下有非常多相關的管所會透過國家語言活動的補助資源去辦很多活動來看一下下一頁"},{"start":590.563,"end":619.634,"text":"目前你們這些規劃是這樣文化部各館所提供多元國家語言服務文化部這些館所依照自己的屬性區特色結合新興媒體這個是文化部一直在做的事情好下一頁那我們這在相關的活動裡面看到有臺語錄的朋友他們給我們相關問卷說在活動現場說好了是國家語言活動的現場不是華語活動的現場臺語活動講故事臺語活動做戲劇臺語活動做說的演出結果大部分的人"},{"start":620.134,"end":646.79,"text":"在講台上的人在做活動的人他甚至不會全台語他可能只有部分使用台語不管是老師的部分下一頁或者是助教的部分下一頁或者是志工的部分都有遇到這個困境我相信在台語推動或是台語使用上一定有很多年輕人或者是甚至跟我年紀差不多的人也不見得真的可以這麼流利的使用台語我想這個困境我們都認同而且我們也都知道現場有這樣的困境好下一頁那到底我們可以怎麼做我們就問了"},{"start":648.491,"end":671.465,"text":"文化部你們在相關的活動補助裏面還有沒有其他的增能的政策協助這些第一線的人因為我們不能去質疑我們也不要去罵第一線人做錯了我們問一下我們可以為他們做什麼下一頁結果你們給我們的回覆裏面我們發現你們談你們辦了很多活動你們也補助了很多錢你們很多管所做了很有特色的事情我們都認同而且我們也肯定文化部的努力但是我們發現沒有專業人力培訓機制"},{"start":674.827,"end":687.316,"text":"甚至這些有心想要上場的講師或者是做戲劇的人他們自己也知道自己的台語不夠好或是自己的客語不夠好自己的原名語不夠好那他們到底可以做什麼文化部可不可以更有角色協助他們"},{"start":693.087,"end":707.866,"text":"我們在第一年推動各館所辦台語活動的時候的確因為失智的來源或是我們的語言信任不夠我們在他們的語言使用比例上只希望他們盡量用台語可是沒有比例上的一個要求"},{"start":708.206,"end":724.366,"text":"所以在第二年我們下一個年度執行的時候現在會逐步的要求這個臺語一定要達到一定的比例可是要怎麼達到這個比例我已經提醒的所以我們會鼓勵我們的同仁或者是這一些應該來的師資課程他們可以去上語言課程"},{"start":725.847,"end":743.802,"text":"沒關係,至少跟你分享一個比較簡單的案例也許我們會讓第一線的基層同仁不要這麼辛苦不要常常很多立法院或行政院政策搞到第一線的人仁養馬翻我們來看一個案例這是國立歷史博物館他們要做相關的策展之後內容都出來之後一、館方會提供所有展覽文字當然是華文有專業的人士翻譯為台語文並且錄音讓工作人員學習有關的用字跟發音再安排研習課程讓導覽人員閱讀臺文版跟台語的表達"},{"start":753.63,"end":759.711,"text":"的工作內容甚至會有專業的人士提供標準版讓現場導覽的人志工的人或者是講師有相關的對照參考也就是說case 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"text":"部長,很高興你這幾天給出了具體的回應"},{"start":228.457,"end":257.621,"text":"對,我們已經要廢止這個強制要跟團的這樣的規定也就是說自由行是可以的那只是說要提醒這些官兵在出遊的時候要注意這個旅遊的警示然後疫情的警示那另外我們可能還是要提醒他們要避免被滲透進行一些反滲透的宣教的一個概念"},{"start":257.901,"end":268.094,"text":"我昨天已經拿到這個國防部他新頒布的公文6月5號也就是過去的國軍人員出國業務作業規定即日起停止適用那在這裡面看起來"},{"start":269.793,"end":299.154,"text":"加了一個自助旅遊我們看到這是已經從昨天6月5號開始發布的規定其實從昨天發布的這個規定以後我們今天從早上開始其實收到非常非常多國軍弟兄透過各種留言的方式表達感謝啦感謝包括感謝國防部感謝新的部長也感謝過去邱部長也開始做這些事情的檢討因為真的有太多不只是軍人包括軍眷有些跟我們反映他可能嫁給了一個軍人"},{"start":299.635,"end":304.37,"text":"可是因為這樣子的規定可能已經十多年沒有跟先生出過國了"},{"start":305.97,"end":335.419,"text":"沒有跟先生出過國因為想自由行沒有跟先生出過國可是我們要強調一件事情過去國防部這個做法的理由是說我們要保安跟防止洩密反滲透但我們現在是說這是無效的所以我們還是要要求重點這不是只是鬆綁而已這個是要用有效的取代無效的所以剛才部長你說接下來我們對於軍人出國可能會帶來的這些洩密或者是被滲透的風險我們具體的做法可能會有哪些"},{"start":337.025,"end":351.883,"text":"我們剛剛提到我們還是會做一些這個防止被滲透的一些宣教的規定要做好保密房點的這樣子的一個配套措施"},{"start":353.385,"end":376.688,"text":"那順便跟委員報告一下也就是說我們另外這些揭密的人員我們現在在做安全查核上面也會仿效於美軍的做法就是說有揭密的有揭密看他揭密的程度就做出分級的做出他揭密的等級是那我們要做好這個安全人員的查核OK"},{"start":377.469,"end":395.618,"text":"我自己當時在質詢的時候我們有建議國防部其實也許可以參考比如說像中科院或者是國安局他們的做法也就是說我要再強調一次這不是只是鬆綁因為國安對我們來說當然至關重要但是要用有效的管理方法來取代無效的管理方法所以部長我們也很期待接下來"},{"start":396.638,"end":397.139,"text":"對於涉密的"},{"start":419.64,"end":448.069,"text":"密等的這個程度我們做了分級然後不同的級別我們做出不同的管理的措施這其實是一個相對比較科學化的管理的方法部長對因為我們最近才完成初步的一個擴大的安全查核那接下來我想我們會再進一步做第二階段的這個安全查核那基本上我的看法就是依照美軍的做法就按照你不是你階級而是你接觸機密的這個等級來做這個必要的安全查核跟人員的管制"},{"start":449.069,"end":468.716,"text":"我們很希望這是一個重要的新的一步我覺得這也讓大家知道其實一個文人部長在國防部可以扮演的角色尤其是帶來一些新的管理的思維不管是剛剛部長說的檢法的思維或者是支援新的配置的思維其實可以讓我們國軍弟兄包括我們在軍中各種"},{"start":469.716,"end":469.976,"text":"請委員多多指教"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}