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農業部"},{"start":2102.837,"end":2125.776,"text":"教育部﹚交通部﹚環境部﹚衛福部﹚科委會﹚人民會﹚中水會﹚黨產會﹚海委會﹚外交部﹚國防部﹚退服會﹚交委會﹚公平會﹚金管會﹚主席總署﹚央行﹚文化部﹚河岸會﹚故宮﹚速發部﹚工程會﹚通常會﹚總統府府﹚司法院﹚經常院﹚秘書長﹚考試院﹚秘書長﹚勞動部﹚國發會等含送書面資料交相關委員會253."},{"start":2125.776,"end":2127.497,"text":"交通委員會和衛院會交副"},{"start":2131.64,"end":2159.079,"text":"254-255 社會福利及衛生環境財政等委員會 涵味於行政命令審查期限請查照案256 行政院涵送本院委員所提臨時提案之嚴處情形請查照案國民黨黨團體增列一委員和職員登記高級中等教育法及教育及文化委員審查二委員有號登記政黨及其賦稅組織不當取得財產處理條例將內政財政司法及法制三委員為審查民進黨黨團體增列三委員和信存登記"},{"start":2159.959,"end":2181.309,"text":"詐欺犯罪危害防止條例將內政委員審查4至12委員 黃潔等委員 郭玉琴等委員 張宏慕等委員 張雅玲等委員 林樂勤等委員 李柏宜等委員 吳秉瑞等委員 陳佩玉等委員 沈柏英等 分別一聚臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例將內政委員審查13 行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名單請同意案"},{"start":2182.669,"end":2201.5,"text":"交交通教育及文化兩委員審查14至22外交及國防司法及法制經濟等委員會韓國委員會交付事項業餘審查處理環境請查詳臺灣中黨黨團體暫列23至28臺灣中黨黨團聯軍中華民國新法交司法及法座委員審查社會秩序和護法交內政委員審查"},{"start":2202.561,"end":2220.773,"text":"行政訴訟法：司法及法治委員審查國民年金法：社會救助法：障碍管制法：社會福利及衛生環境委員審查全事項對行政院院長：報告施政方針：繼續質詢宣讀完畢好 謝謝我們現在請登記委員發言第一位先請張委員志倫發言"},{"start":2244.068,"end":2270.256,"text":"主席好 各位委員 各位媒體先進大家好案由本院中國國民黨立法院黨團有鑒於復議案為憲政重大議題且有其實效性有別於一般報告事項提案鑒請第11屆第1會期第18次會議報告事項增列行政院與總統府一致本院復議案如表列"},{"start":2271.156,"end":2285.884,"text":"並列為報告事項第二至第四案是否有當敬請公決提案人中國國民黨立法院黨團謝謝好謝謝那第二位我們請王委員正續發言"},{"start":2298.221,"end":2327.401,"text":"主席好各位同仁好案由針對第11屆第1會期第18次會議議程報告事項執行事項及對行政院長報告施政方針繼續執行建請照議事日程草案及甄列報告事項通過提案人民主進步黨立法院黨團以上好謝謝那我們現在請第三位林委員施明發言"},{"start":2336.008,"end":2355.255,"text":"主席、各位委員按由本院中國國民黨立法院黨團針對第11屆第1會期第18次會議報告事項原列第21案及增列第4至13案暫緩列案其餘照案通過是否有當敬請公決提案人中國國民黨立法院黨團"},{"start":2425.612,"end":2445.489,"text":"跟委員會報告因為現在國民黨黨團有就這個復議案要列為報告事項第二至第四案那民進黨是希望說建議議事日程草案及甄列報告按照這個通過那另外國民黨黨團還有提說要針對"},{"start":2448.497,"end":2471.029,"text":"就是這次的原列的21案及針列的第4至13案暫緩列案 其餘照案通過因為這個內容上面差距比較大 那我想說我們現在先休息讓雙方能夠協商一下那我們現在先休息5分鐘 雙方大家就今天所提出來的部分先行協商 謝謝"},{"start":2814.056,"end":2832.335,"text":"好 謝謝各位那跟委員會報告因為我們發言的部分我們有另外還有沈伯陽委員以及陳玉珍委員登記發言接下來我們就繼續發言的程序那我們請沈伯陽委員發言"},{"start":2840.205,"end":2862.339,"text":"好那這個謝謝主席那感謝這個國民黨跟民眾黨因為我發現這個程序委員會我的發言有可能是我在所有委員會發言最多的因為每次都是一樣的事情那剛剛針對前面的提案我稍微說明一下第一個就是民進黨是贊成贊成復議的所以這是完全沒有疑問的事情所以針對第一個部分我們當然是贊成復議要通過"},{"start":2863.26,"end":2875.383,"text":"但是接下來我們為什麼會有提出反對最主要的原因還是針對我那一個法案還有在座我們還有其他委員都提出類似的法案就是關於立法委員去中國要報准這件事情這件事情因為剛剛國民黨有說要暫緩列案"},{"start":2881.005,"end":2904.13,"text":"我們是針對這個暫緩列案這件事情提出我們的反對但是我們對於復議這件事情我們是贊成所以在這邊先說明一下那第二個就是關於這個最近有很多人說像這種我們立法委員要去中國算不算是一種監控那還是我再次的說明一下因為我們這個是抱準的制度也是利用現有的兩岸人民關係條例裡面所謂的聯審會"},{"start":2906.67,"end":2928.887,"text":"所以他最主要是透明也就是說你今天把行程讓聯審會看過之後其實是要上網的就像我們縣市首長現在去參與的時候也都是要把行程上網那這樣他們發生危機的時候我們也才知道他人會在哪個地方民主國家要做的事情最主要就是透明化讓陽光可以灑進來讓知道事情怎麼發生陽光灑進來這個並不叫做監控"},{"start":2931.449,"end":2949.125,"text":"至於最近還包含我們對於各式各樣風險高的人我在外面有一些發言在這邊也一併的說明就是之後像之前我在四五年前的時候就有提過代理人法相關的這個法案但是那時候我人不在這邊我是民間團體跟游美女委員一起提出來的"},{"start":2950.566,"end":2977.318,"text":"這個裡面最主要跟這邊的精神是完全類似的所以國民黨跟民眾黨如果還是要持續退這個法案的話也可以先聽聽看我這個說明我這個說明很簡單其實因為一般人不是公務人員公務人員如果今天我們要讓陽光灑下去的話這個說真的太多了所以我們能夠做的事情是要符合兩個要件叫A加BA叫做跟中國的黨政軍有簽約有利益的交換等等之類這叫A"},{"start":2978.038,"end":3004.625,"text":"那這樣也還不夠喔還要逼逼就是在台灣呢去做違反民主的行為譬如說我說過怎麼蒐集台獨份子名單港獨份子名單要求教授呢譬如說學校去跑去跟中國簽約要求台灣的教授在課堂上不能夠提法輪功譬如說像這樣子那符合這些要件之後會怎樣呢也一樣只是透明化而已就是要申報要讓大家知道你有做這件事情就那麼簡單而已但立法委員的申報我認為"},{"start":3005.865,"end":3030.696,"text":"要比較怎樣呢 要比較寬一點因為立法委員第一個人數不多 它不像我們剛剛講的那個情形第二個就是立法委員本來就有比較強烈的保密的義務所以他的申報應該要更為完整所以藉由這個機會再把這個法案做一次說明 謝謝好 謝謝那待會在陳玉珍委員發言完畢之後我們截止發言登記那我們下一位請陳玉珍委員發言"},{"start":3040.647,"end":3068.195,"text":"來 託審博洋委員之福我想我在程序委員會也是發言很多我想這個事實上大家可能還不夠了解很清楚他剛說的聯審會事實上本期昨天才接到一個澄清案就是我們金門以前的一個民政處長因為要去大陸不行那就是還要聯審會通過然後聯審會聯審會要多久呢聯審會是由三個單位所組成的國安局然後這個移民署 陸委會三個單位組成那他們的審查時間是要一個星期"},{"start":3068.735,"end":3082.869,"text":"最少一個星期還不算不算這個休假日不算立休假日所以呢他這個很多委員在裡面提案所出的包括立法委員也好還有這個議員也好如果以後要赴大陸這些地方還要經過這些單位來審查"},{"start":3084.531,"end":3084.751,"text":"議員是民意代表"},{"start":3106.391,"end":3129.291,"text":"全民所選出來的就是說有一些單位他們凌駕了這個名義來決定哪些人哪裡可以去哪裡不可以去這件事情的方面我看出其實為什麼這個東西不能讓他開始你看我們現在政府連法律沒有規定的法律應該是不容許的侵犯人權的這種王逸川的這種事情到今天民進黨都沒有說半句話"},{"start":3130.152,"end":3148.574,"text":"這一種法律大家一看就知道不能監控人民路上的人民的青鳥也好小草也好都被監控到這種地步他們還試圖想要監控民意代表民眾民意選出來的立法委員議員來做審查決定他們能不能去哪裡所以我覺得非常的不合理"},{"start":3149.275,"end":3176.14,"text":"至於法案我覺得會提出這種法案真的非常的沒有民主概念那因為金門地區這個澄清案我不好意思說這件事情實際上我也跟陸委會主委有做相關的這個溝通因為秋水這也是非常了解金門地區的人這一種的這個法律實際上是非常的非常的提出來是非常沒有法治概念我想民進黨不要試圖除了要監控人民以外還要監控民意代表選出來這些全民意所選出來這些民意代表們以上謝謝"},{"start":3179.429,"end":3181.87,"text":"我本來是盡量避免在程序委員會講話但是有時候聽了實在是受不了"},{"start":3200.325,"end":3228.164,"text":"第一首先這個先針對這個復議案復議案這個部分我們民進黨還是沒有意見但是這個事情還是要澄清就是說這個收案時間到昨天但是這個案子是今天早上才送的所以在程序上面事實上是有瑕疵的那因為有這個程序瑕疵我們認為說先列入報告事項那列入報告事項之後未來到底什麼時候要處理我認為應該要透過找一些協商來決定這是核心序名"},{"start":3229.224,"end":3255.038,"text":"接下來有關剛才提到這個有關這個立法委員赴中國相關的這些規定這個在本委員會已經被擋了幾次了七次還八次這個我個人認為剛才不管陳玉珍委員講的話有道理沒有道理但是畢竟這個是程序委員會理論上國民黨在各委員會都是多數所以"},{"start":3256.516,"end":3278.688,"text":"我們委員的提案提案出來之後我們程序委員會應該讓他一讀一讀之後進入委員會之後陳玉成你就可以在那個委員會裡面暢所欲言你剛剛所有的道理都可以在委員會裡面講因為這就是審查嘛我們程序委員會怎麼會在程序委員會裡面來講說這個法案有道理沒有道理所以這個法案可以可以列不可以列這個就是我們民進黨從頭到尾我們認為說程序委員會不應該成為"},{"start":3280.967,"end":3297.664,"text":"不應該成為三讀之前的實質內容的審查會這樣子就整個違反了程序委員會的精神那這部分我講一定要講清楚不是說不是說你講的有道理誰講陳柏洋講的沒道理不是有沒有道理都不應該在程序委員會裡面講"},{"start":3299.107,"end":3324.355,"text":"程序委員會裡面只是講我們這個有沒有符合程序他連署人數夠不夠提出來的這些程序完備了我們程序委員會就應該要讓他在院會進入報告事項一讀然後才在委員會裡面審查我認為這是程序委員會的基本精神再次懇求國民黨作為多數黨應該要在這樣子的程序上面不應該再犯這種程序的錯誤以引起民間大家的反感以上"},{"start":3328.202,"end":3338.608,"text":"謝謝省委員有關省委員剛剛所提到的這個程序上面有瑕疵這個部分呢我想說我在這邊跟各位委員報告"},{"start":3341.168,"end":3363.52,"text":"本院在昨天下午收到行政院函請本院的副議案兩件以及今天早上收到總統府秘書長的函一件那基於這個是重大議案而且有時效上面的急迫性所以有關這個部分我大概先前有去做一下功課第一個"},{"start":3364.761,"end":3379.243,"text":"柯總召今天早上在記者會的時候其實他也是公開的宣告說他支持在今天我們把這個議案這三案能夠增列入程序草案的報告事項這是第一個"},{"start":3381.406,"end":3404.387,"text":"民進黨在之前在審理不當黨產的時候其實在院會也是臨時針裂了一個事項報告事項所以其實做法是相同也有前例可循第三個在今天會議召開前我們也有請教了一下周岸萊秘書長就程序的部分是不是"},{"start":3406.139,"end":3413.917,"text":"會有瑕疵或是有違規的部分那中岸藍秘書長也是明確跟我們說這是沒有問題的慣例不代表違法"},{"start":3415.158,"end":3439.808,"text":"我想跟各位報告一下如果有違反議事規則當然叫做程序的瑕疵但是以前雖然是慣例是如此但是因為本案我們認為這個是屬於是國家的重大議案而且有時效上的急迫性所以我們認為說今天還是有這個必要列入這個程序草案的報告事項至少在程序上面是不像剛剛所說的有程序上的瑕疵在這邊跟各位報告那"},{"start":3444.039,"end":3471.022,"text":"好那我們就接下來好那謝謝各位委員那請問一下就張志倫委員的提議有沒有意義好那沒有意義的話就非常謝謝大家有共識那我們就照張志倫委員的提議通過有關復議案曾列入第18次院會報告事項第二至第四案"},{"start":3477.267,"end":3498.091,"text":"請問對王振旭委員的提議有無異議王委員他所提議的是照議事日程草案及偵略報告事項通過請問有無異議有異議的話我們就進行表決我們先清點在場的人數"},{"start":3520.06,"end":3538.954,"text":"好那在場人數有18人那我們先請贊成王振旭委員提議者請舉手請放下謝謝那我們接下來請反對者請舉手"},{"start":3567.09,"end":3588.355,"text":"好謝謝請放下請放下好那在場人數18人贊成者9位反對者9位那可否同訴時取決於主席那本案主席決定反對所以本案不通過謝謝各位"},{"start":3592.261,"end":3614.986,"text":"好那我們現在處理林思敏委員提議議程甄列原列第21案及甄列第4至13案暫緩列案及於照案通過請問對林思敏委員提議有無異議好那有異議我們就進行表決那麻煩請點在場人數"},{"start":3625.9,"end":3631.021,"text":"好請放下反對者請舉手好請放下"},{"start":3651.792,"end":3674.044,"text":"在場人數18人﹐贊成者9人﹐反對者9人可否同宿﹐取決於主席本案主席決定贊成本案通過報告事項修正通過執行事項對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續執行通過請宣讀人民請願案"},{"start":3682.386,"end":3708.467,"text":"人民請願案1.1請願法第4條之規定,系屬應提起訴訟事項共4案2.1立法院執行法第65條第二項規定,涵轉全職專處理者共2案,宣讀完畢好,謝謝,請問有無異議沒有異議的話通過,有無臨時提案臨時動議不好意思,臨時動議有無,有無臨時動議沒有的話,那就今天會議到此結束散會好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153878","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153878","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8195ee13bcda7a4e9eaaa477a397ca97b23f1306821ff1b0f81231ebb0c6498256a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"12:23:09 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託審博洋委員之福我想我在程序委員會也是發言很多我想這個事實上大家可能還不夠了解很清楚他剛說的聯審會事實上本期昨天才接到一個澄清案就是我們金門以前的一個民政處長因為要去大陸不行那就是還要聯審會通過然後聯審會聯審會要多久呢聯審會是由三個單位所組成的國安局然後這個移民署 陸委會三個單位組成那他們的審查時間是要一個星期"},{"start":36.724,"end":50.85,"text":"最少一個星期還不算這個休假日不算立休假日所以呢這個很多委員在裡面提案所出的包括立法委員也好還有這個議員也好如果以後要赴大陸這些地方還要經過這些單位來審查"},{"start":52.591,"end":52.751,"text":"民意代表"},{"start":73.797,"end":73.837,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":98.141,"end":116.561,"text":"這一種法律大家一看就知道不能監控人民路上的人民的青苗也好小草也好都被監控到這種地步他們還試圖想要監控民意代表民眾民意選出來的立法委員議員來做審查決定他們能不能去哪裡所以我覺得非常的不合理"},{"start":117.262,"end":144.145,"text":"至於法案我覺得會提出這種法案真的非常的沒有民主概念那因為金門地區這個澄清案我不好意思說這件事情實際上我也跟陸委會主委有做相關的這個溝通因為秋水這也是非常了解金門地區人這一種的這個法律實際上是非常的非常的提出來是非常沒有法治概念我想民進黨不要試圖除了要監控人民以外還要監控民意代表選出來這些全民意所選出來這些民意代表們以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153876","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153876","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819121f59b243d8b973aa477a397ca97b23f1306821ff1b0f8155ef2657418d39405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:17:16 - 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討論首先到底課徵法是用專法的方式還是放在刑事訴訟法以專章的方式來表達其實不管是在課徵法、另立專法還是在刑事訴訟法當中而陳儒之前的討論有委員表示意見是認為說透過專章"},{"start":2298.854,"end":2315.181,"text":"而透過專章我們能夠完備整個刑事偵查包括一個訴訟上對於人權保障的相關程序那如果以專法的方式那當然在發現事實上能夠因應著日新月異的科技犯罪我們能夠提供檢警掉必要的工具"},{"start":2315.961,"end":2335.254,"text":"來進行犯罪的偵訪以及事後的刑事追溯。」但是在這兩軌之間或許有不同的側重但是重要的我們今天希望能夠呈現的就是時效上的需求因為社會因應期盼趕快能夠透過立法或修法的方式來完備我們檢警掉對於詐騙、詐欺犯罪的打擊"},{"start":2339.136,"end":2353.41,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":2364.58,"end":2380.643,"text":"包括從外部的方式不管是透過影像的方式來追蹤可能的犯嫌這都是我們在科技偵查犯罪的時候所必要的手段那這當中我們已經對了很多侵犯隱身的部分做了相當程度的一個節制也要求主張有所保留"},{"start":2381.184,"end":2405.368,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2417.196,"end":2422.261,"text":"台灣現在最大的一個司法笑話就是叫做偵查不公開"},{"start":2423.53,"end":2439.143,"text":"真查不公開已經變成是華天下之大雞的司法笑話。所有人都知道只要重大案件發生我跟你保證偵查一定公開一定會有某週刊鉅細靡遺的把所有的案件詳情詳實全部的把它介入報導"},{"start":2443.427,"end":2455.012,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之"},{"start":2462.791,"end":2474.86,"text":"現在偵查不公開變成是法務部的一個內控的一個權宜性的做法如果你過去偵查不公開你的做法基本上讓大家滿意的話我也贊成內控但是有讓大家滿意嗎"},{"start":2478.403,"end":2497.965,"text":"我們過來看哈從一百零八年開始統計到一一二年抵止沒有任何檢察官因為偵查不公開遭起訴然後經過機關收集資料小組列入檢討的高達七千兩百五十五件檢察官很神啦都是神啦"},{"start":2499.156,"end":2503.664,"text":"偵查不公開滿天不公開7255件最後檢察官違反偵查不公開遭起訴的零件"},{"start":2510.984,"end":2535.454,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2538.695,"end":2567.364,"text":"你沒有拿出績效給我們看現在來做什麼?科證法結果科證法、GPS包括通保法、網路流量紀錄這種已經直接侵犯人民核心隱私權的事情法務部也跟我講還沒控放心我們法務部的標準很好我們法務部的公信力很強我們法務部絕對不會把偵訪偵查人民的GPS的流量跟網路流量紀錄拿給八卦週刊"},{"start":2569.225,"end":2577.496,"text":"賣給渣期集團交給王逸川成立天眼局我們檢察機關法務部的內控好棒我們絕對不會做這些事情"},{"start":2578.783,"end":2603.073,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2607.535,"end":2611.229,"text":"如果你今天沒有賦予相應的法律責任跟相應的法律規範"},{"start":2612.944,"end":2615.006,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":2642.108,"end":2663.335,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2664.994,"end":2693.421,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天我自己提出來的草案主要是因為我思考到不管是搜索扣押或者是羈押這些東西其實都是侵害人權但是在公共利益保障的前提之下本來我們就必須賦予偵查機關一定能量的偵查作為雖然這些對人權是一定有所侵害但是它都是在法律允許的範圍內這樣才能夠保障社會的安全"},{"start":2694.341,"end":2721.088,"text":"所以這一次我自己提出來的草案我主要是重視在人權跟發現真實兩個一定要並重上面也就是說就算是偵查犯罪的偵查發現犯罪事實真相非常重要但是還是要建立在人權保障的基礎上所以在《實質訴訟法》第一條第一項他就說得很清楚犯罪非依本法或其他法律所定之訴訟程序不得追溯處罰"},{"start":2722.328,"end":2737.142,"text":"因為這個精神在所以我認為所有的相關的這些對人權的侵害一定要有法律的授權為依據那我也要求說有關科技偵查的方面一定要定在刑事訴訟法裡面而不應該另立專法"},{"start":2738.39,"end":2761.608,"text":"而且是只有一個十幾條的專法其實這沒有任何意義應該還是回歸到刑事訴訟法裡面做一個一體性的規範再來我所提到的偵查的工具主要是GPS、M化車跟熱血象儀這些東西那這個都是現在辦案非常重要的一個工具但是因為目前我個人是認為說司法院是怠惰"},{"start":2762.529,"end":2780.621,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":2782.018,"end":2801.15,"text":"他們都沒有辦法去使用科技偵查的工具來對於這些犯罪分子進行打擊所以我們希望能夠盡快透過修法讓我國的偵查機關能夠跟上這個時代用最基本的科技偵查的工具來進行犯罪偵查另外"},{"start":2802.85,"end":2812.113,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一"},{"start":2819.156,"end":2838.723,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五"},{"start":2844.105,"end":2860.501,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五"},{"start":2866.607,"end":2887.345,"text":"委員包括我們國民黨的委員都認為說事先的法官保留雖然是一個重點但是事後的通知當事人也是一個非常重要的點我們要通知當事人讓當事人才知道有救濟的管道否則他根本不知道自己在被監控的情況下根本不用去談後面救濟的管道那相關的資料的銷毀"},{"start":2888.726,"end":2911.151,"text":"也要法務部把他當做一件事情把他做好最後那個內控不受信任這件事情我覺得可能要法務部自己要檢討因為偵查不公開這件事情講了那麼久也都沒有處罰那個任何一位檢察官但是呢這段時間偵查大公開所有的案子搜索完隔天就上特定媒體而且是特定媒體"},{"start":2912.051,"end":2931.419,"text":"不要講說這東西對人民不公平對媒體也不公平啊憑什麼獨厚某一家媒體要就大公開大加油否則你就應該依法就全部都不應該洩漏出去以保障當事人的權益啊不然這對當事人的傷害太大尤其是訴訟案件很多訴訟案件到最後成罪的比例只有六成多"},{"start":2932.239,"end":2957.943,"text":"我想法務部應該很清楚這個點訴貪案件最後陳罪的比例常常都只有六成多而已那也就是說有百分之三十幾的當事人到最後其實是不起訴處分判無罪那這樣子的話我們對得起這些當事人嗎所以千萬不要配合政治人物用偵查大公開的模式去對特定的政治人物非執政黨的政治人物來用這種方式去羞辱他好謝謝各位"},{"start":2970.407,"end":2975.402,"text":"我們先請那個機關代表報告時間三分鐘請司法院吳秘書長報告"},{"start":2985.38,"end":3008.79,"text":"主席、各位先進、各位委員、各位先進、各位先生、各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本次並案審查修法的法案提出報告事先有提出書面的報告因為時間有限所以我則要說明"},{"start":3010.343,"end":3017.282,"text":"第一項是關於那個有關偵查中辯護人在場前等部分"},{"start":3018.899,"end":3045.296,"text":"那麼這個是最主要是應應憲法法庭一百十一年度憲判之第七號判決主文所明示的意旨那麼認為說檢察官在詢問被告或犯罪嫌疑人的時候有在場筆記之前那麼並且應該有向這個法院聲明不符請求救濟的機會所以司法院"},{"start":3048.038,"end":3070.772,"text":"應應憲法法庭的判決之後就召行多次的執行會議提出今天司法院及行政院所提出來的假案後來因為在會嫌行政院過程當中司法院又在執行會議當中又"},{"start":3074.008,"end":3087.927,"text":"在綜合行政院方面所提出來的各種意見所以後來就彙整為行政院版的草案也就是兩院版所提出來的議案"},{"start":3090.035,"end":3104.189,"text":"所以這個議案是經過兩院的共識那就用這個基礎來作為報告那修法的重點是增訂第七十條之一關於儲物期間的回物原狀"},{"start":3105.31,"end":3124.726,"text":"那麼本條新增對於檢察事務官等那麼所謂的處分不符的話那麼倘因為過失而處分申請期間的話那麼給予申請回復原狀的權利啊那第二點就是說修正第245條關於偵查中辯護人的筆記錢啊那第三點是增訂第245條之一關於禁足或限制處分的這個救濟啊"},{"start":3135.882,"end":3158.002,"text":"另外關於相關黨團還有委員所提出來的各種版本我們在書面也都有做一些說明。第二項是關於科技偵查的部分政府關於這些修法有一定分工在整個科偵法提出專法的過程當中"},{"start":3161.394,"end":3167.783,"text":"二）司法院及行政院密切配合協力提出有關專法。因為科技偵查有別於傳統的強制處分,"},{"start":3176.476,"end":3196.557,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":3197.998,"end":3219.979,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":3228.172,"end":3252.524,"text":"主席各位委員各位先生你是今天封邀本就這一個科技偵查以及偵查中筆記權的部分報告那其中科技偵查的部分請參閱本部在今日以及六月五日的報告在此不再贅述另外有關於偵查中的筆記權的部分這個修正罪主要是要回應先判自七號的要求來完善被告以及犯罪嫌疑人的訴訟權"},{"start":3253.704,"end":3271.661,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":3272.722,"end":3295.83,"text":"那有關於各委員的版本的部分其中有關於這個台灣民眾黨黨團的部分那本部是認為扣押的部分刑訴法已經有相關規定不用重複規定而且416的部分那黨團版本只規定到檢察官的救濟的部分關於相關司法警察的部分的救濟並未漏裂所以這部分是否在酌"},{"start":3296.63,"end":3322.28,"text":"另外有關羅委員智強版本的部分本部是認為這一個按照4至443號有關於這一個成績化法律保留的理論那這部分並非絕對法官保留的事項目前現行法已經是相對法官保留的相對法律保留的事項已經符合4至443號的要求另外有關於這一個省委員伯陽版本的部分本部是認為版本裡面所稱的隨時溝通"},{"start":3323.921,"end":3338.858,"text":"這個隨之溝通的文藝有欠缺明確性的可能。另外有關於這一個電子設備具錄音錄影上網功能的科技設備能否在偵查中使用的部分本部署認為他可能會流於這一個預流通"},{"start":3339.558,"end":3364.996,"text":"或者複製會導致整個偵查中的保全證人及證據上的困難所以本部這部分是否爭裂仁請在座另外有關於全面性法官保留的部分我們認為目前的這個如果全面性採取法官保留會影響整個偵查程序的過程而且證據的保全另外有關證據能力的部分本部是認為現行法按照刑訴一五八之四做個案的全方保障"},{"start":3365.376,"end":3378.769,"text":"已經足以確保這個整個證據的證據能力,所以無庸規定成這個絕對保留。」以上報告,謝謝。好,其餘機關報告請參閱書面。那麼,機關代表報告完畢,相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄。"},{"start":3389.046,"end":3407.642,"text":"三條提案說明及機關報告已經進行完畢,現在開始詢答。本會委員詢答時間為八分鐘,非本會委員詢答時間為四分鐘,均不再延長。上午十點三十分截止發言登記,請登記第一位中嘉賓委員發言。"},{"start":3428.112,"end":3441.991,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關司法官員、會長、工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生、有請法務部黃市長、NCC的蔡處長以及警政署的林副局長。"},{"start":3446.828,"end":3462.547,"text":"次長好還有處長及副局長好那麼今天呢我們是要談科技偵查在刑訴的專章當中但是呢我要再次的來就教於我們三位跟次長在之前我們包括科偵法包括通保法"},{"start":3463.047,"end":3491.726,"text":"以及今天的刑訴法在於打擊詐欺的部分我們談到了很多科技辦案的手段那我今天在我們之前的委員會審查當中有幾個爭點我要進一步的來確定我們法務部可能還有未來我們司法院的態度首先關於使用者資料來我們看一下假設這是一個電信詐騙被二人報案之後警察介入調查首先他會跟電信業者去取得犯嫌的使用者資料是不是這樣子開始偵辦是不是從這開始啟動"},{"start":3493.768,"end":3516.907,"text":"所以我們需要知道使用者的資料是這樣嗎?對好那往下看所以呢我們這裡提到說在院版的通報法的審查當中他有提到有六項包括這個通訊設備的識別資料網際網路位置及位置資料還有通信時間連線用量與封包數量還有網域名稱以及最後應用服務類型及協定對不對"},{"start":3517.768,"end":3545.536,"text":"那我們那時候有問過為什麼需要這麼多首先為什麼需要設備識別資料呢是要確認使用者嗎請問次長還是副局長對這上次的建制機關的報告有說明這個這個通訊設備使用識別資料包括英名跟英系所以這個是AA就委員9T的A是要確認使用者是誰犯嫌嗎鎖定犯嫌之後那請要接下來請教一下往下看那我們的網際網路的位置跟位置資料目的又是什麼"},{"start":3546.926,"end":3574.204,"text":"問何你們需要這個IP?這個當然就是如同委員在PPT上所講他確認這個IP是來自於哪個國家跟城市跟基地台。要瞭解這個犯嫌的所在位置是不是在國內是這樣的意思嗎?對。那這跟你們的犯罪偵查有什麼關聯?這當然這個被告他所在地時在哪一個城市或在國內外會涉及到我們偵查。發動偵辦很有關係。好謝謝那我們就認為他有必要再來那你們為什麼要調取網域名稱的原因是什麼?網域名稱他能顯現什麼?"},{"start":3575.685,"end":3592.578,"text":"各位報告網域的名稱部分不會顯示網址他就網域名稱所以委員在PPT上所寫斜線以下的部分當然就不會顯現所以說以我現在說的法務部調查局的網頁來看我們前面的網域只能看到facebook對不對.com就知道這一個"},{"start":3593.325,"end":3607.938,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":3612.722,"end":3641.787,"text":"那接下來再請教一下往下看那我們的應用類型服務及協定他的流量連線的流用量及風暴數量目的又是什麼為什麼你們需要他可能的犯嫌他使用哪些應用服務類型對他他看他是使用哪一種軟體在對在進行相互通那目的是什麼對你們的犯罪偵訪有什麼目的他使用來他是上網或者是用語音或哪一種犯罪手法而已那至於他詳細的內容要進一步的偵查"},{"start":3642.447,"end":3667.472,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":3671.853,"end":3687.566,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之"},{"start":3698.345,"end":3708.227,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":3709.568,"end":3727.378,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":3728.499,"end":3744.649,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":3752.694,"end":3756.455,"text":"所以你們要調取流量紀錄的時候其實你們就是要去去從外部去構築一個可能的犯罪的一個過程"},{"start":3766.049,"end":3767.23,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3786.218,"end":3803.632,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九"},{"start":3806.884,"end":3832.657,"text":"根本報告原則上我們草案跟原來的這個條文他本來就採法官保留啦是那事後的監督機制我們在我們的這個草案的十四條之一的第六項其實有定一個授權的規定所以你們有在準備了對未來我們在進行協商的時候你們可以告知以確除我們委員會審查的疑慮是嗎大概的方向是可以的好那最後我們還談一個就是那一天的爭議點就是事後的監督機制"},{"start":3833.498,"end":3836.584,"text":"根據院版的通保法第四條之一的第二項及第五項,你們這裡﹖其實呢﹖這裡要重複了"},{"start":3842.608,"end":3865.78,"text":"其實在這裡我們看到了我更正第十一條之一的調取資料的發動主體你們本來的設定是檢察官跟司法檢察官對不對當時在討論要不要一下子從法官保留跳到完全沒有任何的保留甚至有人主張折衷用檢察官保留但是到底這會影響到你們辦案的速度還是影響到我們檢察官或法官的負荷那你們的回答是什麼"},{"start":3867.132,"end":3885.44,"text":"公安委員報告因為第一個他當然是他的侵害人民的權益相對的較小第二個基於辦案實際上的需要第三個他其實沒有內容的一個記錄所以這部分我們認為為了平衡人權保障跟事實的發現我們認為司法檢察官賦予他直接調取的權限"},{"start":3886.48,"end":3907.496,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,但我們還是認為,鑒於過去仍然有在偵查機關當中有不肖份子他們利用假借犯罪偵查之名去調取使用者資料的時候,產生了用他用。這種情況之下我們認為,不管有沒有檢察官保留法官保留,縱使沒有,未來的這個調取的紀錄必須能夠留存"},{"start":3907.976,"end":3927.538,"text":"以便從外部來問責﹖對不起這個問責打錯了﹖問責的機會或來釣﹖以免濫權。你們同不同意縱使沒有任何的檢察官保留或法官保留,這樣的調取個資應該留下足跡?這個當然。當然你們有沒有寫出來?事實上警政署在通信記錄的部分他就有一個非常嚴格的內控的規定。"},{"start":3928.686,"end":3951.107,"text":"那能不能供外部來稽查可以可以啊可以你承諾齁好那這就是我的結論了結論就是說我們認為呢調取網路流量記錄不得涉入瀏覽內容可以嗎確定這絕對好那你們要設置外部的監督機制以完善隱身的保護你剛剛也承諾了未來包括縱使沒有檢察官保留或法官保留在個人資料的調取部分要留下足跡"},{"start":3951.823,"end":3975.739,"text":"公外部監督機制。」你會建立這個機制,是嗎?不是,本來按照我們這個授權,這個某法授權的規定本來就要建立這樣的機制。那能夠公外部來稽查?外部的稽查要看它稽查到什麼樣的程度。是,所以我說你要提出具體的主張。未來我們在相關的三法的審理當中,包括今天的刑事訴訟法的當中,我們要能落實這些機制要求。必要的時候你要提出來具體的說明,可以嗎?OK,沒問題。好,謝謝。好,謝謝中召委。"},{"start":3982.214,"end":4010.837,"text":"下一位我們請羅智強委員發言有請次長好羅委員好次長你知道我們現在的司法的有一個最新的一個進步的時代叫做偵查大公開時代吧你知道吧你知道吧"},{"start":4011.673,"end":4038.166,"text":"而偵查不公開是偵查大公開你搞錯你現在我們偵查大公開時代你都搞不清楚我跟你講偵查大公開時代不是我個人的說法也不是你個人的認知請問一下一百零八年到一百一十二年底然後經過機關收集資料小組列入檢討的偵查不公開之餘有違反偵查不公開之餘的案件有多少件你告訴我"},{"start":4041.307,"end":4066.115,"text":"七千兩百五十五件偵查大公開啊當然我知道列進去啦除非你今天不看報紙你幾乎每重大案件,我想要請問次長不管是楊文科案、高雄案、林志妙案只要檢方發動任何的偵查手段第二天、第三天、第四天"},{"start":4067.745,"end":4091.219,"text":"週刊就報導了。沒錯吧?我有誣賴你們嗎?沒錯吧?還是要我調新聞資料出來給你?還是說你完全沒掌握?你這7255件有沒有包含這些事情有沒有?有沒有包含嘛?有沒有包含嘛?沒關係你回去列個報告給我。7255件我想要知道是哪7255件。資料準備一下。"},{"start":4097.612,"end":4116.979,"text":"第二路檢討嘛。非常好!檢討結果是什麼?檢討結果當然如同委員講他現在認為就是說沒有違反偵查不公開。謝謝啊!沒有違反偵查不公開。眼睛瞎了才會說沒有違反偵查不公開啦!所以案前鉅細靡遺除了跟偵查有關的人之外"},{"start":4118.059,"end":4143.654,"text":"誰拿到這些資料你不要講今天連監察院都看你們看不下去啦監察院一百零八年十二月公布的調查報告明確指出檢調偵辦社會矚目案件違反偵查不公開等刑嚴重侵犯人權聯邦法本會委員會的黃國昌委員向北檢告發的司法案件也被外洩媒體為公眾所知"},{"start":4144.727,"end":4172.341,"text":"我自己都被檢察官約談過我還跟上次說過檢察官跟我講說偵查不公開羅先生請你出去不要講我出去不講結果週刊寫出一大堆扭曲我在偵查這個所謂的作證的時候講的話奇怪是我洩漏的嗎我當然知道啦我前面問法務部長就堅決否認是檢察官洩漏為什麼因為我也抓不到啊因為我又不是司法警察我又沒警察權"},{"start":4173.638,"end":4201.144,"text":"所以我要回頭講齁你今天跟我講內部內控機制到現在為止我剛剛前面講7255件喔多不多啊多不多啊市長你的數字觀數字直觀也許答不出來我跟你講一般民眾看到這個數字很可怕可是檢察官很棒啊因為違反偵查不公開遭起訴的幾個你告訴我當然是沒有零吶"},{"start":4203.179,"end":4221.605,"text":"檢察官每個都是聖人還是神人啊那麼多的案件你一個都沒有辦法今天告訴我說今天規則然後通通跟我講檢察官沒事我還相信你的內控嗎我就講一個最簡單的事情為什麼球員不能兼裁判為什麼為什麼永遠不能只依賴內控為什麼為什麼因為人就有人性"},{"start":4226.52,"end":4251.497,"text":"檢察官現在有多少檢察官?全國大概一千四百個檢察官一千四百個我相信一千三百九十九個都是很棒的檢察官但你保證那一個檢察官有一個檢察官他今天把偵查資訊洩漏媒體他今天甚至也有不肖的司法警察人員把偵查的把所有收集的資料賣給詐欺集團有沒有這個案例有沒有"},{"start":4252.615,"end":4279.076,"text":"司法警察部門有起訴有嘛對不對所以換言之人性死的內控機制基本先天就有缺陷啊更何況我今天講的招招攬今天你們法務部跟我講我剛所有偵察部公開事件主管機關不就是法務部不是吧是吧不然你們幹嘛組小組去檢討啊那個是偵察部該作為辦法裡面所規定對嘛但是你的績效拿出來你覺得能服眾嗎"},{"start":4281.598,"end":4309.437,"text":"我現在看到就偵查大公開時代啦所以第一個為什麼今天要講偵查不公開要法治化也是為檢察官好今天為什麼要偵查不公開不就是落實無罪推定嘛免得偵查公開你去帶風向嘛對不對現在抱歉每次發生任何案件這些所有的案件當事人照這個偵查大公開的內容不用等審判全世界都認為他已經貪污定驗了結果貪污定罪率六成"},{"start":4310.404,"end":4332.07,"text":"被大公開那三成最後被判無罪可是抱歉中間被霸凌被所謂的扒皮已經是精靈的所有有罪貼定的過程了啦那今天從偵查部公開今天司法法務部這邊吼內控大敗壞這件事我要講下一個嚴重的問題了這也是我質詢部長"},{"start":4334.742,"end":4359.568,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":4364.727,"end":4386.867,"text":"我只看到一面倒要求檢察官給你武器可是呢GPS24小時內要不要通知當事人照你們的白門要不要通知當事人法條上沒有規定要通知當事人要透過內控來處理沒有通知當事人你不要給我轉彎你只是內控而已我剛剛前面講你今天內控績效好我站這邊我沒有資格講你什麼"},{"start":4388.305,"end":4408.424,"text":"我相信你的內控嗎?我說那一千四百個檢察官有一個檢察官今天他就把這GPS資料他拿出去交給又是八卦週刊同一個再不然就是交給詐欺集團再不然就是交給所謂的天眼局王一川我知道嗎?"},{"start":4410.117,"end":4428.414,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":4432.398,"end":4433.599,"text":"二）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百"},{"start":4459.659,"end":4474.294,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十"},{"start":4477.406,"end":4495.425,"text":"所以今天為什麼在這邊一直呼籲事前的階段我到現在還沒有時間討論事前該裁檢察官保安法官保安是完全就是今天相信檢察官我這個都已經沒時間討論了但是這些你都可以為了打仗的效率你還講得出一點理由啦"},{"start":4496.446,"end":4515.999,"text":"事後通知也不做事後的所謂的救濟沒有通知哪來的救濟啊事後的損害賠償的監管事後資料的銷毀的外控機制你都跟我講內控可以做啊所以到這邊你叫我怎麼相信今天你不是假借科證法假借所謂通保法"},{"start":4517.06,"end":4535.866,"text":"打詐目的也許有但是你附帶去政治偵訪人民甚至出賣人民的個人隱私資料給八卦週刊甚至給詐欺集團我沒有辦法管制啊我沒辦法了解啊事後跟事前最大的差別事後跟打詐一點關係都沒有沒錯吧事後通知會妨礙你打詐嗎會不會我先問你嘛事後通知會妨礙你打詐嗎"},{"start":4548.192,"end":4561.359,"text":"對嘛!那不要再拿打詐做藉口你都認證了事後通知只是讓你多一道手續你連偵查作為都做的時候你不要跟我講事後通知你做不到事後通知只是增加一道手續跟打詐是沒有關係的沒錯吧"},{"start":4562.78,"end":4568.484,"text":"包括所謂的救濟管道的基因石包括所謂的損害賠償責任的建制有沒有"},{"start":4579.951,"end":4583.453,"text":"對啦我知道你們內控很嚴格絕對會追究責任到底啦謝謝好謝謝那接下來下一位我們請傅坤祺委員"},{"start":4615.554,"end":4635.411,"text":"請次長麻煩次長委員好謝謝黃次長今天部長為什麼沒有來他今天另外掉下去有一個儀式他典禮因為院長要去他就要陪同"},{"start":4637.008,"end":4649.384,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":4650.842,"end":4672.742,"text":"是不是上個禮拜這個通報法已經送出委員會了所以這禮拜就不用來了是嗎沒有他本來是要來的因為臨時有這個行程他在跟召委請假這個請問一下次長因為本席覺得您在法務部是比較沒有那麼政治性而且很專業而過去本席也對您非常敬重"},{"start":4673.903,"end":4697.601,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":4701.22,"end":4723.134,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":4726.683,"end":4750.641,"text":"這個剛剛羅委員提到卸密七千多件這個本席有問過蔡新祥部長七千多件其實其有七千多件而已是被人家檢舉被人家查到的就七千多件如果沒有檢舉沒有查到的可能是一萬四千件還是兩萬一千件還是三萬件五萬件"},{"start":4752.27,"end":4780.745,"text":"所以啊次長我們必須很務實來看待這個事情在上一屆立法院針對科證法是軒然大波這個社會大家老老不安所以在上一屆這個蔡英強部長撤回沒有再送還有包括木馬城市植入手機啊等等啊五花八門所以"},{"start":4782.652,"end":4806.273,"text":"上一屆沒有繼續審查。」那這個會期又提進來提進來固然沒有提木馬城市但是你們所需要的辦案武器立法院是可以支持但是我們現在最重要的對於你們如何防止洩密以及事後通知被偵查的人這都是必要的程序"},{"start":4807.577,"end":4831.301,"text":"次長再說明一下讓我們了解一下你們積極的作為是什麼?各位委員所言報告就是我們現在的科證法草案裡面除了剛剛羅委員所提到的這個GPS24小時內我們這個由這個檢察官或司法警察來直接處理之外其他的所有的包括超過20小時的GPSM化車也好熱血箱也好都要經過嚴格的法官保留"},{"start":4831.681,"end":4839.232,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":4839.738,"end":4856.21,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第七百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五"},{"start":4867.518,"end":4891.217,"text":"本席沒有在懷疑啊你們用如何偵查方式然後能夠因應現在新的科技犯罪你要有一個急迫的時效性本席到現在都沒有反對本席是請教你們對於防弊的積極的作為對於整個偵查大公開全面洩密的積極的作為是什麼"},{"start":4891.937,"end":4920.16,"text":"有關偵查不公開部分事實上我們刑訴法245條第五項他已經授權我們訂了一個偵查不公開作業辦法啦他是一個授權成效如何當然一定不如外界所這個期待的但事實上幹委員提到說件數很多那是假機關他主動認為有違反這條不公開之一他就主動的列入檢討的但是後追究結果也許不管是各界的檢舉還是這些司法機關主動"},{"start":4921.843,"end":4946.388,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四"},{"start":4950.96,"end":4980.062,"text":"這個政治犯案眾人皆知剛剛各委員也提到包括高鴻安包括楊文科包括林志廟現在包括柯文哲主席這幾幾乎啊這個報章雜誌寫的啊可能比地檢署檢察官手上的資料還要清楚所以啊本期在這裡請教次長我們今天不是演講大賽我只有一個目的要請教你"},{"start":4982.513,"end":5010.691,"text":"這麼高的民調人民認為檢察官會受到政治力的介入百分之八十五的人認為政治力介入這個檢察官的辦案會受到影響這表示全民對於整個偵查的過程有沒有揣摩上意以及有沒有聽從指揮去做刻意的方向的辦案這已經是幾乎是全民共識了而且你事後有沒有再確實做到"},{"start":5011.857,"end":5034.425,"text":"對於被偵查人他的權益的保障他的被告知的義務還有損害的賠償你們必須要很完整的很完整的這個配套的做法這是第一第二對於再三再三類似攻擊性的"},{"start":5035.712,"end":5064.59,"text":"這樣的泄密讓整個案情完全在偵查過程跟媒體同步報導完全把偵查不公開視若無物這個部分一定要很清楚你們要拿出一個辦法這屬於加重泄密還是怎麼樣你必須提出一個辦法來本席在這裡跟你確認在你們這個辦法沒有收到立法院以來近來我們對科證法還是有高度的質疑"},{"start":5066.28,"end":5094.174,"text":"所以請你們把本席今天要求的事情也是委員會一再討論Focus重心都在這裡我們希望法務部能夠提出自我的要求我們配合來修法沒有問題要把這個完備人權的保障這樣子的話再來提要提高這個檢察官的武器我們當然會支持但是如果"},{"start":5095.262,"end":5120.198,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":5121.564,"end":5137.03,"text":"而且你們是正式的違反聯合國的兩公約而且是無罪推定所以必須要請法務部把確實的防範的方式以及該加重的刑責必須提出一個具體的辦法"},{"start":5138.939,"end":5157.781,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一"},{"start":5158.601,"end":5187.515,"text":"可以盡快提出來嗎?各位報告就網路流量的部分上次委員會已經決意要求本部未來在訂執法的時候要把相關委員所提的相關的階段機制列入通盤考量這第一點第二點有關偵查不公開的部分我們現在事實上已經因為法律授權訂了一個偵查不公開作為辦法我們可以來檢討這偵查不公開作為辦法有沒有要再行修正或檢討的地方這邊可以答應委員市長當然要檢討但是本期請法務部"},{"start":5188.945,"end":5215.25,"text":"未來只要有在偵查中的案件媒體揭露的話法務部的機制就是立刻立案調查從哪裡泄密的?公文報告,剛才我講的偵查資訊部關於監督辦法事實上所屬的檢察機關或是司法機關他本來叫主動的檢討法務部反而不能夠查出來沒有?但查得出來查不出來他涉及到一個案的事實"},{"start":5217.728,"end":5243.863,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":5258.107,"end":5283.385,"text":"主席,我們有請司法院秘書長跟法務部市長。秘書長早。市長早。我想我們今天這個委員會排審就是將目前有的這個刑事訴訟法的一些相關的一些修正草案還有我們這個司法院跟法務部所"},{"start":5284.335,"end":5300.387,"text":"所送進來的這個刑事訴訟法修正案一併審查了那就是條文所以這個就變成今天的會議的有好幾個不同的主題就針對因為他把所有刑事訴訟法的全部都納進來大概就是"},{"start":5302.714,"end":5326.649,"text":"幾個問題第一個就是有關科技偵查法的部分納入刑事訴訟法這是一個主題另外就是有關這個大法官這個憲法法庭所判決之後我們專門筆記權的入法另外也有委員提這個針對偵查不公開的這個相關處罰入法大概就這些焦點"},{"start":5327.677,"end":5356.657,"text":"我想首先因為這個科技偵查法的部分我們在上個禮拜就已經大家大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下"},{"start":5358.82,"end":5380.419,"text":"當然這個我們台灣的刑事訴訟制度他也是一個漸進的一個進步的過程他在從這個以我所知好像是這個律師的編護人的在場權要到民國七十一年修法之後這個才在偵查過程中這個律師才可以在場"},{"start":5385.305,"end":5388.169,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5403.027,"end":5416.635,"text":"一直到民國九十二年才從職權主義改成這個當事人進行主義了大概是這樣子的一個進步過程那我們今天今天這個我們在在這個一百一十一年這個憲法第七號判決"},{"start":5418.876,"end":5439.518,"text":"這個有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出就是有關這個辯護人在場的筆記權、陳書意見權他都應該是偵查中的這個辯護權應該能夠受到充分的防禦權的保障因此我們才有今天的修法但是這個修法的部分我看這個我們因為司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本"},{"start":5440.492,"end":5468.716,"text":"我看這個我們法務部的這個版本齁你的修正重點除了這個筆記權以外齁那對於這個這個在單書中所做的限制齁必須要要載明於筆錄啦齁那這個如果這個這個其他有這個犯罪犯罪嫌疑人或其他變容人在場陪同齁應該要再行告知齁這個都都是我們法務部版本裡面有的另外"},{"start":5469.622,"end":5494.011,"text":"也在七十條之一明定了相關的救濟程序了那這個部分我有一個在這個學界以及這個實務界大家爭執已久這次我本來想說這個我們筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決但是我看到我們的兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題就是有關於使用電子輔助設備"},{"start":5495.492,"end":5500.614,"text":"條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條"},{"start":5526.428,"end":5535.336,"text":"這一次的版本裡面委員沈伯陽18人提出來的245條第二項修正草案規定辯護人得以被告或犯罪嫌疑溝通"},{"start":5550.512,"end":5575.059,"text":"以及用這個電子設備（對這個是沈博洋委員的版本我是說我們司法院我們尊重尊重尊重就是說也就是說司法司法院認為這個使用在在這個這個筆記權裡面包含這個電子設備的輔助你們是尊重尊重的意思說包含也可以是不是這個意思尊重這個法務部來請市長"},{"start":5577.009,"end":5599.016,"text":"公務員報告我們的立場是這樣先判制他是確立了辯護人的在場前筆記權跟陳述意見權所以他重點是筆記權我們容許他筆記但是我們主張的是如果那個電子設備他有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的所以電子輔助設備裡面還有兩個問題一個是說我用電子輔助設備來進行筆記純粹進行筆記這是一種方式"},{"start":5606.218,"end":5631.085,"text":"另外就是說這個電子服務設備裡面有錄音錄影到底可不可以這是變成兩個問題啦這個對這次市長講的我本來接下來就是要問這個啦那對這兩件事情法務部的態度呢我剛已經提了如果說他的電子設備是只有單純的筆記功能沒有錄音錄影傳送功能的話個案上檢察官他去判斷這有沒有影響他他的偵查二十五條第一項單數他自己去判斷所以你"},{"start":5632.745,"end":5656.42,"text":"所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情﹖法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎?如果他錄音錄影傳送個人的話...現在不講錄音錄影錄影錄影你們的態度很清楚這不可以其實也沒有法律依據啦你們現在目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點高等檢察署這個跟所屬的這些偵查庭你們是用這個偵查庭管理要點"},{"start":5657.24,"end":5669.452,"text":"五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案的第四條之一、第六條之一、第六條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、第八條之一、"},{"start":5679.762,"end":5701.3,"text":"幾乎很少人用手寫的啦對各位報告他如果電子輔助設備他已經有錄音錄影傳送功能他已經異國錄影錄影錄影是一個對至於技術上面你怎麼確認他的對他的這個這個電子輔助設備裡面除了筆記功能以外他有沒有其他的錄音錄影功能這個是技術上面你們的問題技術上他就個案上懲判檢案他就要去判斷了所以"},{"start":5703.894,"end":5731.211,"text":"簡單講這是法務部的立場因為我這裡有這個111年度我們的這個律檢會議的會議紀錄111年11月30號正好法務部出席的正好就是次長那時候是檢察司司長所以你那時候你所表示的意見說可否使用電腦作為這個雜技的工具授權檢察官事個案決定沒錯所以你們到現在法務部的立場還是"},{"start":5732.452,"end":5759.783,"text":"受選檢察官嗎?對,沒有錯。但是受選檢察官的結果他就會造成一些爭議啊。各位報告他那個但書檢察官可以限制禁止的時候他本來就是考量很多的抽象的一個室友嘛。所以那就是一個個案判斷的問題。好,那但是但是就是因為你們受選檢察官所以這個在這個你們檢察官評鑑評鑑委員會的一百一十一年度檢評制第九十三號就有這個爭議啦檢查你進來辯護人進來之後檢察官要求要求檢查他的電腦"},{"start":5760.963,"end":5784.002,"text":"檢查他檢視他的桌面資料那也要求重新開機這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權給檢察官來決定我能不能那個辯護人能不能使用電子設備所以檢察官他就說他認為說我用這樣的方式來確保你沒有進行錄音錄影但是這個辯護人認為說你檢察官無權檢查我的檔案"},{"start":5786.178,"end":5815.096,"text":"所以才有這個評鑑的結果嗎?那這個東西究竟我們現在說授權給檢察官你們不認為說在這次的修法裡面既然我們開放了筆記權那有關於這個電子輔助設備的使用你們是不是應該也要在這個立法過程中把它說明清楚你們究竟這個到現在你們還是認為說授權給檢察官因此就授權給檢察官的結果就是造成相關的這些爭議了"},{"start":5817.897,"end":5836.527,"text":"這個解評委的決議事實上是因為他不負評鑑他實際上是肯認檢察官在個案上的一個裁量性的判斷當然委員擔心的個案上我們是不是要在我們的注意事項定一些比較明確的判斷基準我們事後再來考慮看看在什麼狀況之下要禁止什麼時候要不禁止"},{"start":5838.288,"end":5860.083,"text":"時間到了,我跟你講其實司法院我們司法院的在這個你們在這個今天的修法的立法說明裡面你們有說你們認為錄音錄影並非筆記權你們直接就在那個這個今天的立法說明裡面你們就認為說因為他容易從事散佈所以你認為他不屬於筆記權明定在這個立法說明裡面"},{"start":5862.892,"end":5875.422,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":5876.345,"end":5893.729,"text":"我個人是比較希望說在這個立法過程中我們就針對這個辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情我們要在立法過程裡面把它明定清楚以避免未來還要再繼續還要再重新再修法或者再重新做解釋的一個必要以上好下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":5913.51,"end":5927.27,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":5928.629,"end":5929.109,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":5950.772,"end":5971.249,"text":"審查不公開之都沒有去看到第三項。」第三項你們其實講得非常清楚啊除於依據法令或維護公共利益或是保護合法權益有必要者外當然你這不得公開這三項是不得公開然後你才在第五項的時候就叫你們去用會同那個司法院的你們還有行政院共同去制定"},{"start":5972.61,"end":5988.257,"text":"這個你就顛倒過來講啦 這個我特別提醒一下但是我還是要來就教一下啦 延續我們上個禮拜大家在提到的就是說 這個我們今天這個整個科證法的部分我相信第一個你們會碰到外界在講的 為什麼不放在刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":5989.639,"end":5995.722,"text":"第一個會碰到這個問題嘛,這個就比較怪啦當然你們要講特別條例也可以啦,那你像比如說DNA採樣條例、刑事這個妥數審判法還有通保法跟國民法官法這些都刑事訴訟法的一個特別的一個規定當然都可以,但是我簡單的講啦實際上在刑事訴訟法裡面對現在真正有治癒學法律的人比較方便"},{"start":6013.112,"end":6030.937,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":6031.477,"end":6055.135,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6056.856,"end":6074.59,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6075.891,"end":6088.696,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6106.601,"end":6124.668,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、"},{"start":6136.021,"end":6150.727,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":6157.711,"end":6165.973,"text":"二十三小時半建行這個通知的程序真的會有那麼困難嗎?這涉及到什麼?你很清楚啦我們現在來講的話你說我去我今天你發動一個強制處分我去哪一些人家去做搜索欸搜索人還可以在場欸對不對我還可以表達我的看法欸"},{"start":6187.608,"end":6200.794,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五"},{"start":6216.4,"end":6228.439,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":6231.957,"end":6252.335,"text":"他們又認為他們也認為我不要說秘書長我就試一下我問他們認為人權的考量這也確實你去看看我們刑事訴訟法那個拒絕證人權那個部分我們的觀念已經跟德國已經完全相反了德國是認為說這一些人你連去監拍"},{"start":6253.752,"end":6266.004,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五"},{"start":6277.835,"end":6289.121,"text":"會涉及到後面你被傳訊當證人的時候我如果是辯護律師的話馬上我本來如果我們採抄德國法的話我馬上會跟你講你那個是根本就不能列為證據啊會不會有這樣的問題那個秘書長修法啦我們這個是在立法應該是把那個根本的把它拿出來討論"},{"start":6301.263,"end":6308.999,"text":"在司法院立場是保障人權這個方向我們認為這個要一直努力下去要保障人權"},{"start":6310.106,"end":6332.504,"text":"但是你都沒說我所謂保障人權大家也知道保障人權所以該通知的司法院立場應該還是盡量還是要通知啦我再提出來我真的會因為那天黃國昌委員去提到我講的那個100H的部分他剛好說沒有規定我回去再讀你知道嗎我回去再把它讀德國刑律訴訟法"},{"start":6333.945,"end":6353.4,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案的第一百條是針對監看的那個要件一百零條是針對告知告知義務包含受重大干預的一個通知的一個義務他們監看的部分我上次就提出了他還有兩個前提就看要要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實這個我們已經沒有了"},{"start":6354.221,"end":6362.152,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":6369.793,"end":6389.085,"text":"你的看法,次長?各位報告,這如果說是這個監看的部分的話我們事實上這部分我們也是規定當然沒有區分第三人或者被告我們事實上有法官保留還有事後的通知跟監督機制都有啊我們現在唯一沒有的是GPS24小時內的而已其他的都是有相關的通知機制跟相關的監督機制啊"},{"start":6390.185,"end":6413.671,"text":"刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6415.74,"end":6416.3,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6429.73,"end":6441.277,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6455.725,"end":6464.873,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6465.953,"end":6490.71,"text":"我講了第三次了啦這一些我講的都不是杯葛裡面就想說這涉及到基本人權的我們真的要好好討論你不可能做一四人嘛 對吧讓你做到補定 讓你做到十萬年議定哪一天你們下來的時候你會發現說哎喲 在我任內我怎麼給人家通過這個這個你這個法律人基本的一個堅持總是要有啊我總是要去提 跟你們提醒一下那這一些涉及到基本的你們要看過那個哈利波特嗎"},{"start":6494.679,"end":6505.853,"text":"三位有沒有看過哈利波特?次長你有沒有看過哈利波特?你沒有看過我就告訴你,死神的聖物有三樣其中最可怕的是那個古墓的那個魔杖威力很強大"},{"start":6506.701,"end":6519.052,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6532.335,"end":6557.749,"text":"如果我卸任以後我再去當律師的話我真的馬上會主張這個我甚至會覺得說你們這個偵查的程序裡面到底會不會涉及到違憲我們何必修法完以後讓後面的有人有機會這樣去主張為什麼有機會這樣去主張因為司法院還有法務部你們很清楚啊德國的法令有一部分我們就真的給人家抄一半而已啊大法官真的有可能因為這樣子把你宣告給違憲還在你們的任內這樣通過"},{"start":6560.759,"end":6582.835,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":6588.16,"end":6592.791,"text":"我覺得很合理,我看司法院這邊沒有意見了。次長你是不是要再講,再想一下。"},{"start":6596.617,"end":6617.968,"text":"各位報告我們的立場已經說了非常多次了那這部分並不是因為說整個刑訴他其實做一個全實在權衡的過程被告的人權保障和事實的發現是做一個權衡的過程那這部分其實他24小時內的這一個GPS他只是一個像我們現在如果沒有GPS20小時規定我們現在司法警察他事實上在路上也在跟監啊"},{"start":6619.008,"end":6642.078,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6644.994,"end":6659.805,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6660.663,"end":6679.917,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6689.304,"end":6708.53,"text":"現在上來以後都可以那要等當事人來主張說我有這樣的一個身份那NO我拒絕證言你會碰到這個部分啊你像比如說是醫生心理醫師我哪天派到的是醫師或者派到他的心理醫師或者是他的律師他這些到庭上來他就說我主張拒絕證言權那可以了"},{"start":6712.554,"end":6729.277,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、"},{"start":6730.751,"end":6747.84,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6748.407,"end":6775.957,"text":"提出很卑微的一個提醒打擊犯罪發現真實大家都願意但是這些基本的一個人權的侵害的部分是不是考慮一下怎麼設計司法院也認為沒有問題的啦那警察的部分我不曉得你們跟誰討論啊但是問一問看起來他們覺得啊事後給人家捅低一下也合理的啊你們撐在那個地方再考慮一下好不好再考慮一下"},{"start":6780.894,"end":6803.73,"text":"謝謝下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席我們請吳秘書長麻煩秘書長秘書長早"},{"start":6809.728,"end":6832.384,"text":"委員好今天我們要併案審查有關這個刑事訴訟法的部分修正條文那其中三黨的黨團或委員各別有提出對於科技偵查訂定的專章的這個草案那也誠如我們在上週審查科技偵查與保障法時所討論到究竟是要訂定一個專法"},{"start":6833.505,"end":6848.119,"text":"還是要修訂專章來規範科技偵查的內容。這也是接下來草野協商對於所要採取的這個法律去進行抉擇。那也有看到其他委員提出質疑認為我們司法院應該要拿出更積極的這個作為。"},{"start":6849.56,"end":6872.792,"text":"如果相同內容能夠定在刑事訴訟法當中則應該不須再另訂專法。那也因為司法院這邊是代表法院和法官的意見攸關未來實務上的運作。那在此我想請教秘書長司法院目前的立場是偏向另訂專法還是相關的考量的理由是不是可以請秘書長來做簡單的說明一下。"},{"start":6875.698,"end":6898.323,"text":"像委員說明那麼司法院是認為以專法來規定比較適合因為行政院版的這個草案已經經過多方的討論有排除部分比較爭議性的偵查手段所以是建議用專法來討論作為基礎"},{"start":6901.69,"end":6927.386,"text":"因為這個科技偵查手段可能持續在增加所以放在專法就類似通保法一樣那麼便宜來統一規範能夠來迅速回應偵查機關偵查犯罪還有收集證據的需要那假如說要放在那個刑事訴訟法那可能還要再"},{"start":6930.228,"end":6955.039,"text":"在整體盤點那個刑事訴訟法本身好沒關係民眾黨你們就是傾向就是制定專法那這我們也尊重那我想我們司法院跟這個法務部在修法的過程裡面應該也經過充分的這個溝通跟討論那但是在這個科技偵查的實務上還是要有檢調在調查案件的這個時候來發動"},{"start":6958.541,"end":6976.768,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":6977.528,"end":6989.657,"text":"檢察官認為有必要時就能夠發動偵查。」那我想請問秘書長,草案對於法官保留和審查的這個機制是否都已經非常的周全了?"},{"start":6990.803,"end":7016.968,"text":"因為現在在這個科證法草案所規定的三種類型那不管在這個人的定位追蹤還有M化車的這個行動通信的設備的這個追蹤定位以及藉由這個隱私空間內的人物的監錄那這些都有採取法官保留事件來審查"},{"start":7017.788,"end":7042.398,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條"},{"start":7042.978,"end":7067.942,"text":"那這些包括所使用的科技方法還有使用該科技方法調查得取的這些標的那這些在申請書裡面都要詳細記載所以就整體來講這個專法的草案所採的法官保留的範圍還有這個審查機制就人民的飲食錢已經非常周全了嗎?"},{"start":7068.502,"end":7076.313,"text":"條文修正草案案 案件,刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案 案件,刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":7084.764,"end":7109.453,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":7111.374,"end":7119.587,"text":"要求或是規範來降低科技偵查對於人權侵犯或是不當濫用的可能。」"},{"start":7120.439,"end":7144.574,"text":"因為在這個草案這個專法草案就各類型已經有採取法官保留那麼並且在這個核發許可書的時候對主刑人員方面也為必要的指示除外這個在草案中也規範有事後通知的這樣的一種程序事後救濟制度這些也都有規範還有這個"},{"start":7147.015,"end":7152.925,"text":"資料保管消費機制可以說是可以來降低會不會被濫用?那個秘書長會不會被濫用?"},{"start":7156.34,"end":7178.892,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":7179.993,"end":7201.83,"text":"懲罰犯罪最重要的角色不論是最後協商的結果是要訂定這個專法還是修訂專章那我想當務之急還是要盡快在各版本的這個條文內容上去取得一個共識那並且讓修法競速來完成給予偵查單位有效打擊犯罪的一個武器才是一個重點"},{"start":7202.591,"end":7217.076,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":7217.366,"end":7232.636,"text":"五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":7233.436,"end":7257.416,"text":"那我們也看到司法院還有行政院還有委員們對此都有提出修正的版本那我想就一個可能發生的這個狀況來請教秘書長那今天假設律師在徵訊做筆記但檢察官還是不允許也就是說他當下沒有得到這個筆記的權利那在救濟之後應該要如何來處理"},{"start":7260.811,"end":7285.05,"text":"這一次在司法院、行政院後來有共識提出來的議案裡面就這些有增訂241條之一關於假如說禁止或限制處分的一個救濟這些有增訂在第245條之一有做一個如何救濟的方式"},{"start":7287.045,"end":7302.55,"text":"有這個在上面有記載嗎?有有有有如何來來救濟這一次有這個部分是不是會後再請我們同仁再給我一份資料是是好那另外我想就叫秘書長就是我有看到這個沈伯陽委員他有提案"},{"start":7303.03,"end":7322.917,"text":"希望能夠保障辯護人筆記權的同時也能夠考慮到因為科技日新月異得以用其他電子設備來輔助記錄我想這應該也是符合現代的這個工作習慣所提出的這個修正方案因為現在的這個工作實務上做筆記也應該不僅限制於紙筆"},{"start":7324.037,"end":7349.674,"text":"在電子設備上若有妥善的規範是否也可以歸納為我們未來筆記輔助筆記的一個工作的一個工具。這一部分我們在書面說明也有提到我們市法院是尊重的。尊重這樣提出來這樣一種這個方向。那我可不可以請我們黃次長那針對這個部分我們法務部的這個看法勒?"},{"start":7350.514,"end":7373.679,"text":"國務委員報告我們這宪判是他確立的是這個辯護人的筆記權所以我們要確保的辯護人在偵查中可以筆記他用科技設備去筆記個案上有假官去判斷他是符合筆記的概念我們要強調的是如果這科技設備本身有錄音錄影傳送功能的話這部分我不是禁止的他會影響整個偵查的不公開的原則的處理"},{"start":7374.239,"end":7387.645,"text":"所以個案上他符不符合筆記的要件個案來檢察官他自己去做判斷好那如果在我們規範清楚的狀況之下我們法務部跟司法院應該都同意用這個電子筆記來做這個備載的方式應該這個工具可以認同嗎?"},{"start":7391.167,"end":7392.168,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":7414.22,"end":7430.685,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":7449.543,"end":7454.091,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩有請司法院的秘書長跟法務部的次長。委員好。"},{"start":7462.16,"end":7482.81,"text":"秘書長好、次長好目前我國非常多的人民受詐騙所害家破人亡整個社會對於詐騙是深惡痛絕也正是因為這個樣子我們不斷地催促、不斷地要求我們相關的主管機關必須要就打詐"},{"start":7484.232,"end":7512.125,"text":"必須要就洗錢能夠更強力的去執行而且有效的採取各式各樣追訴的手段在這個同時當我們看到有一些不肖的律師拉幫結派幫這一些詐騙集團行使刑事訴訟法上面合法的辯護權沒有人反對但是"},{"start":7513.191,"end":7538.391,"text":"如果是幫詐騙集團進一步參與犯罪監控車手甚至幫忙洗錢啊生物痛絕啊生物痛絕沒想到介入的還不僅僅只有律師啊連我們的法官連我們的檢察官通通都淪陷了"},{"start":7539.332,"end":7556.932,"text":"有法官幫詐騙集團律師的首腦藏匿現金還幫他運送現金啊這種藏匿犯罪所得的行為啊來請教一下次長有沒有違反洗錢防治法"},{"start":7559.233,"end":7560.894,"text":"法官幫這些詐騙集團律師的首腦長逆運送現金有沒有違反洗錢防治法請教次長"},{"start":7585.487,"end":7610.861,"text":"公文報告如果符合剛剛我跟委員報告的是以前的三個太陽的其中一個太陽隔絕型的太陽的話當然會構成這個案子有沒有開始在偵辦這個部分台北地檢署已經在偵辦了司法院是不是給他停職了司法院已經停職了好接下來另外一個同樣誇張的竟然有我們地檢署的檢察官去鼓勵他的男友"},{"start":7612.15,"end":7640.401,"text":"加入詐騙集團的律師團還提供檢方內部的書類檢索系統來幫他查詢提供他的資料桃園地檢署發了一個聲明說他利用檢方內部的系統查詢資料已經偵截了沒有影響到偵查也沒有影響到防害秘密是真的嗎來請教一下次長"},{"start":7642.02,"end":7661.579,"text":"各位報告,那個台灣第1屆新聞稿是這樣子說明的啦,個案上他刑案的部分他認為沒有構成,但個案憑藉...好啦,我們來問一下齁,他幫他的律師男友幫詐騙集團在監控車手的律師男友來去查詢檢方內部的系統,我先問一個"},{"start":7662.802,"end":7686.329,"text":"如果查詢檢方內部的資料系統這是依法律應該可以公開的事情還是依法律應該秘密的事項各位報告我們相關的查詢的這個規定有相關的規定它不符合我們個案上查詢要件所以幫詐騙集團的男友查詢資料符不符合你們的規定這個個案當然他去認定純粹從法律來講抽象來講是不應該的因為嘛"},{"start":7690.066,"end":7719.255,"text":"你也說不應該嘛但我看桃園地檢署的新聞稿我就看不懂啦幫他詐騙集團的男友去查他幫詐騙集團偵辦的案件處理的狀況這不是檢查系統隱秘密的事項嗎那怎麼會只移送檢察官、評鑑委員會沒有要進一步偵辦這樣對嗎請教市長這個已經涉及到他這個桃園地檢署個案的決定了"},{"start":7720.602,"end":7746.502,"text":"這個個案的決定我們接下來進一步往下看看我說的是不是真的他的律師男友跟其他的律師已經依照組織犯罪防治條例起訴了嘛 對不對對吧這個是你們公開的資訊嘛依照組織犯罪防治條例起訴代表了這一團律師啊在我們檢方的眼中他已經構成了犯罪組織了嘛"},{"start":7748.339,"end":7775.427,"text":"你不會覺得很誇張嗎我們的檢察官竟然鼓勵他的律師男友去參與犯罪組織欸來你看一下你們在起訴書裡面證據清單裡面所講的他說被告朱一平要跟鄭宏威合作吳女就是我們的檢察官為其表示可惜好吧我只是覺得這是打進去那個詐騙圈子的好機會"},{"start":7777.14,"end":7801.608,"text":"檢察官去鼓勵他的男友加入犯罪組織這麼駭人聽聞的事情啊目前法務部的態度是什麼?顧問報告那個案的偵辦上我們還一致的立場還是尊重地檢所決定嘛那行政懲處的部分我們繼續行政監督各案的偵辦我一定尊重地檢署啊但問題是你要可以經得起社會檢驗嘛"},{"start":7804.316,"end":7829.05,"text":"這個犯罪事實這麼明確的行為這麼離譜的你們去對照一下桃園地檢署發的新聞稿讓人看不下去啊草率的就說什麼沒有影響到偵查或涉及妨礙秘密來我問一下你們後來發生了這麼離譜的事情有沒有去清查這個檢察官有沒有介入過"},{"start":7830.527,"end":7856.13,"text":"這一個詐團的男友他所承辦的案件有沒有去清查過?各位報告那個桃園地檢署因為他承辦的地檢署嘛我相信地檢署檢察官他就所有的狀況他都應該要一律的清查啦好清查完的結果是什麼法務部有沒有掌握因為他的個案剛甄解我們部分這部分我們不可能去掌握那我先問你法律抽象的問題就好了啦"},{"start":7857.315,"end":7877.777,"text":"他的男友所幫忙辯護的案子他的女友鼓勵他參加犯罪集團的這個檢察官適不適當處理他男友辯護的案子所以這個部分台灣地檢已經把他送個案評鑑了沒有,適不適當處理他男友幫忙辯護的案子"},{"start":7878.926,"end":7895.979,"text":"可以這樣做嗎?當然不適當。當然不適當?對。是不適當還是不法?有沒有跨越法律的紅線?啊,各位網友,有沒有不法那就涉及到剛剛提的...剛剛我說的很清楚了嘛。對,它是一個刑案的問題。他的男友幫忙辯護的被告"},{"start":7897.031,"end":7923.051,"text":"鼓勵他的男友去幫詐騙集團加入那個犯罪組織,一起來監控車手,一起來幫這個詐騙集團辦事情的檢察官,可以再審審他男朋友幫忙辯護被告的案件嗎?可以嗎?各位報告,因為您提的是喜難的部分,那叫個案即是事實去認定啦。他到底有沒有反映什麼。你們怎麼連這麼簡單的事情,連一個基本的態度,"},{"start":7923.942,"end":7946.647,"text":"都閃躲成這個樣子。我給你看個案事實桃園地方檢察署檢察官起訴書一位許信的被告他的辯護人是誰朱一平朱一平是誰就是剛剛那個檢察官的男友提起公訴了以後同樣一個被告"},{"start":7948.205,"end":7968.352,"text":"這個檢察官就是這一個詐團律師男友的女朋友的這位檢察官他可以當公訴檢察官嗎?你有沒有看到右手邊下面誰倒庭執行職務吳雅芝?吳雅芝是誰?是不是就是那位檢察官?"},{"start":7969.745,"end":7991.636,"text":"這個被告的辯護人是誰朱一平朱一平是不是他男朋友就是他鼓勵他男朋友去參與詐欺集團加入那個犯罪組織的擔任律師的男友可以做這種事嗎法務部要有態度啦各樣我當然尊重檢察官的偵辦嘛各樣要有態度啊"},{"start":7993.065,"end":8011.578,"text":"各位報告,如果這個檢察官執行職務跟辯護人有一定特定的關係的話檢察官是符合訴訟法上的自行迴避,他應該要簽情問題是他沒迴避啊他還知道,他不僅知道他男朋友是在幫詐團他還鼓勵他男朋友去參加那個詐騙集團組成的律師團幫他們監控車手這還不夠駭人聽聞喔"},{"start":8018.068,"end":8029.375,"text":"結果他男朋友幫忙在辯護的詐騙集團的車手由他的女朋友立庭當公訴檢察官這種基本的查詢啊桃園地檢署沒有查出來法務部沒有查出來我老實講啊我不相信啊害人聽聞啊可以幹這種事喔"},{"start":8046.926,"end":8072.529,"text":"可以幹這種事喔!更離譜的是什麼來次長我再帶你往下看起訴的時候檢察官在起訴書說什麼這一個被告也就是他的男朋友擔任辯護人的被告他已經是累犯了要求依照累犯加重起刑這個是起訴檢察官做的事喔來我們來看判決"},{"start":8073.857,"end":8103.173,"text":"判決最後有沒有論累犯沒有論累犯為什麼沒有論累犯因為那位力挺的檢察官就是那個詐團律師的女朋友當力挺檢察官的法官說什麼本件檢察官於本院審理時沒有就被告有無構成累犯的事實及加重情形的事項具體指出證明方法所以就沒有論累犯"},{"start":8105.256,"end":8132.564,"text":"市長你看了不會覺得很誇張嗎?檢察官起訴的時候要求論累犯結果到審判的時候立庭的檢察官是那個被告辯護人的女朋友還是鼓勵他去參加這個犯罪組織的然後他在審判程序當中沒有針對他是累犯的事實提出任何證據方法導致法院最後沒有論累犯"},{"start":8135.096,"end":8158.163,"text":"請問這不是包屁什麼是包屁這不是放水什麼是放水我們桃園地檢署移給檢審會的憑鑒事實有包括這個部分嗎沒有為什麼沒有應不應該構成要憑鑒的事實這部分的話當然如果說有沒有不當我們桃園地檢署他今天委員在這邊質詢他理論上他會要職權來處理這樣子你認為有沒有不當"},{"start":8162.731,"end":8187.797,"text":"法務部的立場認為這樣有沒有不當按照4至7、7、5號的規定雷範檢察官是要指出證明的方法對啊沒有指出證明的方法結果沒有指出證明的方法的檢察官是誰就是那個詐團律師的女朋友啊站在法務部的立場這樣的態度這樣的作為是要強力打擊詐欺犯罪強力打擊洗錢集團是這樣嗎"},{"start":8191.227,"end":8215.178,"text":"這樣的事實桃園地檢署是在呵護自家人喔我簡單搜尋一下就查出來啦桃園地檢署查不出來喔這件事要不要徹查市長委員報告今天委員在這邊質詢的話我們會把這個意見轉交給桃園地檢署來處理我希望桃園地檢署公開回應啊我就查出來的事情可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":8216.86,"end":8244.52,"text":"自己的男朋友在幫忙辯護的詐騙集團結果他自己當立庭檢察官當了立庭檢察官還沒有論壘犯的事實讓法院最後沒有依照壘犯加重刑刑這個是我們在對抗詐騙集團應該有的態度跟作為嗎這是我的問題市長要不要徹查我剛剛已經回答委員了好來最後"},{"start":8246.584,"end":8275.22,"text":"不好意思耽誤了一點時間我最後請教秘書長當詐團藏匿現金的司法官經手的案件我的問題一模一樣司法院徹查了沒有他曾審過多少詐騙集團的案件在那一些案件當中有沒有跟當他藏匿現金的詐騙集團的成員有任何的交集這件事情司法院徹查了沒有"},{"start":8277.396,"end":8302.228,"text":"這個我們跟桃園跟橋頭地院啊就這個司法官的這個事情啊都都盡可能的來來加以這個釐清對所以呢他其他陳審的案件有沒有涉及到詐騙集團他有陳審詐欺案件啊有沒有陳審到詐欺集團的案子徹查了沒有那我們會盡量釐清的所以已經將他停所以什麼時候釐清"},{"start":8304.119,"end":8331.444,"text":"是已經釐清完了還是還沒有釐清完在橋頭地院那邊他們應該就初步然後也跟政風單位也都密切甚至像所以釐清完了沒有就就因為這一種就是說一定是盡量去釐清嘛對啊所以釐清完沒有那這個沒有關係啦我看你吼現在的回答是搞不清楚狀況我也不要逼你會吼"},{"start":8332.765,"end":8350.32,"text":"去問橋頭定院,釐清完了沒有?因為你們已經停止了嘛。停止了。接下來除了刑事處分以外,我想法官評鑑應該跑不掉嘛。對對。是不是要移送法官評鑑?已經送了。那你送法官評鑑最後釐清的犯罪事實有沒有涉入其他詐團的案件,這件事情徹查沒有?"},{"start":8351.101,"end":8370.193,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":8371.94,"end":8393.04,"text":"有沒有涉及其他詐團的案件請司法院跟橋頭地院回去徹查這已經沒有涉及到審判核心事項了我們是針對已經終結的案件來review他有沒有成審有沒有涉及到其他案件一定要徹查啦好請司法院回去徹查謝謝謝謝黃委員接下來我們請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":8408.517,"end":8412.24,"text":"謝謝主席有請秘書長跟次長麻煩秘書長、次長委員好兩位辛苦了今天兩個主題就交於兩位第一個當然今天的主題就是科證法的立法到底立法體力我們要做出什麼樣的抉擇第二個議題我繼續會針對我們的國會調查權的行使的事項再一次就交於兩位下演"},{"start":8438.183,"end":8450.032,"text":"三）刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之"},{"start":8460.6,"end":8487.493,"text":"在委員會主條審查當中都確認是可以使用的新型武器所以主體上是大家朝野是一致有共識的那對於發動的程序上如何能夠更強化對於人權的保障對於通知當事人的作為那確實有一些小小還在釐清當中的程序性的問題但是大方向上在上週的主條審查"},{"start":8488.593,"end":8510.388,"text":"大概都已經完備了。」所以說已經排除了原本也有在野黨委員所認為爭議的偵查手段都排除了那現在三大打架利器入法所以呢我個人認為我剛剛也聽了秘書長說的你們認為司法院認為立專法是一個好的方向下一頁"},{"start":8511.468,"end":8539.273,"text":"我今天要特別在這裡再釐清一下再說明一下本席個人的立場我認為讓科技偵查執法有據是我們討論最主要的目的他要執法有據讓他所有偵測的證據都具有證據的效力來提升整個偵辦能夠定罰判罰的基準所以呢到底是要放在刑事"},{"start":8540.633,"end":8561.081,"text":"訴訟法或是專法為之我認為這個事情是沒有是非對錯就是一個政策面的抉擇就是一個政策面的抉擇在立法的體力上其實過去以刑事程序特別法來作為這樣子的立法也有相關的體力比如說國民法官法"},{"start":8561.781,"end":8575.477,"text":"例如說也在這一次打詐司法當中的通訊保障及監察法好不好我看你們的報告裡頭還有把這個羈押法也放進去所以體力上是有的他不是一個唯一不是一個新創事項"},{"start":8577.319,"end":8602.339,"text":"二）在時程上我認為這是關鍵我個人認為時程上如果要透過刑事訴訟法它畢竟是跨院計的嘛對不對你司法院主管你必須要會嫌司法院所以在過去司法法制委員會也好在立法院立法修法的經驗裡頭只要是跨院計我們也常常 argue啊司法院跟法務部的立場又不一樣"},{"start":8603.32,"end":8625.946,"text":"所以跨院級的修法、立法本身它的修法期程就更為緩慢。現在沒戶期啦。我們要快速的去打詐。要讓科技偵查的新方法可以趕快來上路。讓道高一尺可以破除魔高一丈。所以我也務實的認為特別法在時程上是快速可以到位的。"},{"start":8627.14,"end":8646.046,"text":"當然還有一個科技偵查他本身具備的特殊性如果從偵查機關的需求面的角度來講那用一個專法是有助於建立一個專屬的法律的體系架構我個人認為這是一個政策的抉擇沒有好壞沒有是非對錯"},{"start":8647.486,"end":8662.193,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一"},{"start":8674.146,"end":8694.362,"text":"所以我個人是認為快很準是我們現在要面對打架最重要的事項所以我希望趕快在朝野協商當中各黨團來協議出一個方向我個人傾向認為立專法是需要的在體力上在時程上在食物的需求上它是更好的好下一頁"},{"start":8695.359,"end":8724.079,"text":"那釐清了今天的主題我還是要回到這個擴選法案行政院已經提出復議然後總統何可樂已經從昨天送到立法院我覺得網路上的公民朋友非常的關切我個人會認為在未來的復議案的行使甚或是未來的釋憲過程這都是台灣公民社會最好的一個民主教材這都是讓全民一起來上一堂公民課"},{"start":8725.24,"end":8751.83,"text":"很多的年輕世代他們在網路上不斷的在討論說如果立法院不能好好討論就讓社會來討論我認為這是這一次擴權法案的延長賽在復議或者是未來釋憲的過程當中就讓公民來對話公民來好好針對這樣一個珍貴的民主教材好好來進一步的來思辨來論證"},{"start":8754.215,"end":8766.291,"text":"但我也看到針對通過了擴權法案之後立法院到底如何來行使調查權呢?其實連國民黨內部的意見也不一致喔。下一頁。"},{"start":8768.052,"end":8795.947,"text":"回到憲法的相關規定憲法六十三條規範立法院的幾大權力以及釋字五八五號跟七二九號都再再告訴了我們立法院行使的調查權是憲法所賦予的所必要之輔助性權力他必須跟著憲法第六十七、六十三條立法院本身的議案相關"},{"start":8797.268,"end":8810.442,"text":"所以說他所與職務職權有重大關聯者並非包山包海並非什麼都可以以查閉之名無限上綱的來啟動調查。釋字729號更清楚的告訴我們"},{"start":8814.346,"end":8842.248,"text":"立法院行使調查相關的職權對於偵查中的案件自不得向其調閱相關卷證也就是對於偵辦中的案件立法院的那一條線要畫得很清楚我必須再一次的把憲法的精神再一次說明跟論證下一頁所以說呢因為現在這個黨有委員說是不是要在立法院設調查官兩位的看法如何"},{"start":8847.373,"end":8862.975,"text":"為什麼立委說立法院要不要在立法之後、修法之後才說要不要來設調查官?在司法院、我們司法、行政的立場是和這個共同的法律大家共同遵守"},{"start":8863.916,"end":8880.887,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":8880.947,"end":8902.868,"text":"二）司法院的立場就尊重憲法的賦權嘛對不對?調查權該屬於監察院的就監察院那檢調擁有的權利就是司法的權限嘛來那次長既然有立委在討論說立法院要不要成立調查官是不是就事足以來證明立法院是沒有調查的專業立委本身在法律上各方面"},{"start":8903.809,"end":8922.456,"text":"才要有涉一個調查官之必要。」你的看法呢?立法院有沒有比較檢察官的訓練專業調查的這種能耐?各位報告因為這涉及到是大院的職權刑事法也非本部的執掌那本部的立場跟司法院一樣我們就尊重大院的決定"},{"start":8923.7,"end":8946.501,"text":"你們都講的實在是很委婉因為現在有藐視國會罪都很委婉我完全理解站在憲法的角度就是我們共同的立場但是釋字585號也很清楚的說特殊例外的情形就特定事項之調查由委任非立法委員之人士來協助調查之必要時就必須來訂定特別法"},{"start":8948.323,"end":8976.983,"text":"就委任之目的、委任調查之範圍、受委任人之資格、選任任期等人事組織的事項、調查的權限都必須有特別法的詳細的規範並藉以作為監督之基礎。換言之如果立法院因應了國會擴權法案的修法之後那如果要增設調查官本身的這件事情他必須要嘛二次修法要嘛要有特別的立法規定"},{"start":8977.383,"end":8993.57,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二百五十五條之一、第二"},{"start":8999.025,"end":9000.307,"text":"二）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百"},{"start":9016.388,"end":9028.464,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":9032.99,"end":9036.772,"text":"或是我們吳宗憲、趙偉說的他過去檢察官辦案的經驗他認為要有一個檢察官辦案的模式還是要有偵查不公開的狀況然後不對媒體公開就有兩種不同的主張所以說這樣一個政治需求大於實質功能的國會調查權其實他不折不扣的政治目的是大於實質的所謂調查"},{"start":9058.032,"end":9077.479,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第六百四十五條之"},{"start":9086.722,"end":9102.049,"text":"當然還有包括如果立法院同時啟動了調查權的議案必案本身涉及必案本身就是你們檢調偵查中的案件或者是立法院的調查結束之後有人去向檢方告發"},{"start":9103.169,"end":9131.06,"text":"其實這都某種程度就會變相成為政治施壓司法的一種可能而且是一種無限的復循環我今天在這裡我想這個議題我希望社會持續的討論在復議案的行使的過程以及大法官釋憲的過程裡頭讓社會從這一次的國會擴權法案我們共同更去了解立法院的議事運作更去理解憲法所授權的五院的權力分立的原則"},{"start":9132.14,"end":9161.26,"text":"還有立法院縱使應當擁有調查權他應當有清楚的政官法律程序應當要符合相當的比例原則還有法律的明確性的事項這些都是社會好好對話非常重要的標的也是我認為就是這一次國會擴權法案通過之後的政治延長賽所帶給社會正面的意義就是繼續討論真相跟正義是會被釐清的好辛苦兩位也謝謝教委"},{"start":9163.662,"end":9181.301,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五條之一、八十五"},{"start":9195.775,"end":9208.283,"text":"兩百四十五條司法院版跟行政院版就兩百四十五條的差異來救教兩位。就是我看到兩百四十五條的我們的行政院版"},{"start":9209.204,"end":9235.676,"text":"就是有第三項跟第四項第三項指前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄第四項檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應再行告知第九十五條第一項、第二款、第三款的事項"},{"start":9236.676,"end":9251.489,"text":"三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第三百四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四"},{"start":9252.009,"end":9277.077,"text":"刑事訴訟法第三項叫濟民筆錄這個事實上是落實我們現行的我們疫情注意事項是實務上規定如果有限制禁止我們本來就要求檢察官要濟民筆錄另外一個目的就是濟民筆錄之後讓被告或讓辯護人他可以救濟因為是連帶的救濟是因為只有濟民筆錄才可以你有救濟規定我知道那司法院版為什麼沒有請司法院委員向委員說明是現在"},{"start":9278.117,"end":9292.935,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":9293.342,"end":9320.964,"text":"共同認為說就後來及時廣義在那個過程齁在會選的時候司法院也都有提出各來來臨近共識啊所以現在現在這個議案是兩兩院的共識了是所以現在司法院也同意就是依照我們啊行政院的版是是是那我想這個版齁我提出一下我們事務上的一個運作的一個困難喔委員長因為當然這部分你是說因為啊"},{"start":9322.79,"end":9337.6,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":9338.901,"end":9363.919,"text":"人名譽之餘或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者的限制或禁止之。」這個限制或禁止是由第三項講要記名於筆錄。第四項講說又要去依照九十五條的規定。那你可以這個可能要可以讓他又可以再請辯護人並告訴他第二第三款的事項。第三款就是說他可以選任辯護人。"},{"start":9365.74,"end":9377.629,"text":"但是現在就是會有一個問題出現在實務上如果現在在偵查程序中檢察官那個被告請了律師來你如何判定說這個檢察官會有但書的情形發生在實務上你會判斷正在偵訊那檢察官就坐在下面啊他可能連一句話都還沒講欸"},{"start":9391.031,"end":9408.08,"text":"當然他要符合剛剛委員提的245條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定那甲官前提是他有一個事實的存在啊那甲官認為這個妨礙他所以我知道所以我說你如何第一時間判斷說這個辯護人他會有這些但書的事由存在然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護"},{"start":9409.591,"end":9426.035,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":9433.358,"end":9446.691,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、"},{"start":9448.152,"end":9455.513,"text":"或他會勾串共犯或證人,你從什麼事由來判斷?」所以這可能是不是第一次辯護,就是可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後,應該是之後才會發生這種情況嗎?"},{"start":9476.789,"end":9491.736,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":9498.579,"end":9519.993,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之"},{"start":9521.798,"end":9534.919,"text":"這時候你要依照95條的規定你又要去告訴他說比如說你現在限制或禁止這一位律師到場來做辯護那你馬上又要告訴他依照95條第二項告訴他你可以再選任辯護人"},{"start":9537.592,"end":9547.178,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":9561.363,"end":9580.697,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":9590.905,"end":9602.675,"text":"所以其實我是說現階段其實對我們辯護人禁止辯護的檢察官通常在實務上他認為這個律師如果他收集到相容證據即便沒有這些條文他還是可以禁止他辯護是不是這樣"},{"start":9606.414,"end":9625.092,"text":"就是一現階段沒有這條法律的設計如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由是不是也可以立即就限制他?限制法上本來就可以限制法就可以了嗎?對,只是限制法他沒有賦予救濟的途徑被憲判幾號宣告違憲了限制法的確就有這個機制是"},{"start":9626.613,"end":9654.174,"text":"所以嘛你為了要去救濟說你這個被限制或禁止於是有這個權利那但是跟要不要加這一條法條的一個設計這個就值得就說你被限制或禁止你的救濟規定你可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定但是你有沒有必要去在這個法條裡面弄個第三項第第四項這樣的一個規定有沒有必要因為你你現在現行法制就有了嘛"},{"start":9655.77,"end":9679.121,"text":"公文報告,我剛才提到第三項部分我們是把現行的做法把它明文化了,把進度比如明文化,那第四項部分其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的再度獲得確保當辯護人被禁止的時候,甲官必須要在權力告知有關於緘默權有關於選用辯護權相關規定,讓被告可以再做一次的這個選任這是對被告再度更確認的保障"},{"start":9680.061,"end":9700.814,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第四百五條之一、第"},{"start":9702.87,"end":9728.149,"text":"所以我的疑惑就是司法院版竟然沒有我會贊同司法院版我覺得司法院是不是應該當時那民主黨你再講清楚當時你們沒有這個版本沒有你們是有做什麼樣的考量是後來在會選的時候認為說行政院提出來是又更詳細啦又更詳細然後對整個人權的那個保障會更更有保障"},{"start":9729.97,"end":9745.716,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":9758.86,"end":9778.833,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":9779.633,"end":9790.157,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":9810.789,"end":9816.638,"text":"現在我們請吳宗憲委員發言謝謝那我們麻煩次長還有秘書長"},{"start":9824.289,"end":9825.871,"text":"國會改革法案初遭立法"},{"start":9846.205,"end":9868.844,"text":"因為剛剛兩位也沒有回答胡委員嘛那胡委員一直說因為有這個藐視國會罪所以你們不敢回答那我先跟兩位報告一下藐視國會這個東西目前還在行政院復議中並不是一個現行的條文還沒上路所以根本講這個是沒有意義的這是恐嚇兩位而已所以沒有這個問題第二個就是有關我們國家的立法"},{"start":9869.705,"end":9889.661,"text":"我國是成文法國家嘛那本來就是如此啊就是法律通過之後有了這個立法院有這個權限之後才會去思考接下來怎麼運作嗎我想任何一個條文包括行政包括那個公行政機關所使用的條文也都是這樣啊都是先一個"},{"start":9890.422,"end":9903.107,"text":"制度一個權利通過之後再由行政機關去就施行的細項去思考怎麼樣去做立法的動作所以這個不就是一個立法的常態嗎為什麼這個東西還可以反過來推論說是"},{"start":9906.428,"end":9933.564,"text":"國會改革法案沒有思考到調查官要不要設立所以這個叫做初操的立法我覺得這應該是胡志耀委員又搞不清楚法律了我在這邊再幫大家再上一課啦所以任何的法制的通過絕對是一個大範圍的概念先過了之後到行政機關或到相關的機關再去做細項的部分再做法律上的補充再立法所以並沒有說"},{"start":9936.126,"end":9963.577,"text":"這個國會無法這個沒有去思考到要由調查官還是由立法委員自己去聘用有偵查能力的助理沒有去思考到這個就叫出操立法我想這講這個只能說對法治真的是很不熟悉我想這個部分我就先說明一下再來我想請教一下司法院因為司法院我有看了你們這一次的那個報告"},{"start":9965.441,"end":9992.251,"text":"那你們這次報告有提到說將運用科技新興偵查手段規範於刑事訴訟法中未必與我國法律體系相符那我想請教一下秘書長那到底這次我提的草案或者是我們其他委員提的草案裡面有哪一條是跟現行的刑事訴訟法有相衝突這個最主要就是說假"},{"start":9994.173,"end":10013.72,"text":"現在相對性的假如說專法那當然專法處理那假如說要到刑事訴訟法的話那他就可能就是說要就整個刑事訴訟法他整個體系就要做一個盤整做一個盤整他假如是在裡面一個章節"},{"start":10015.721,"end":10038.843,"text":"因為這裡面也涉及到就是說我們在書面說明有提到比如說像刑事訴訟法228條第一項有賦予檢察官抽象的偵查犯罪前線那230條第二項、231條第二項賦予這個司法警察官還有司法警察調查犯罪的前線所以像這些"},{"start":10039.924,"end":10057.424,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":10058.385,"end":10075.388,"text":"那怎麼來盤整的問題?那個民主黨你還是沒有回答我的問題啦其實我的問題很簡單就是因為貴院這次的報告裡面直接點名說我們提的這些東西要求設在刑事訴訟法裡面這個未必與我國法律體系相符啦"},{"start":10075.848,"end":10092.877,"text":"所以我一直很想就教就是說貴院這麼多法律人才那到底我提的法案我提的草案或是其他立委提的草案到底是哪一條跟我國刑事訴訟法體力衝突不相符合如果你只是講一個那種概念性的東西那等於沒有回答一樣啊"},{"start":10093.875,"end":10109.819,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一"},{"start":10116.121,"end":10130.844,"text":"警察或是司法警察的干預處分是目前來講是沒有救濟的但是只有就部分條文有救濟所以大概有一些相衝突包括章節的名稱的部分恐怕也會跟一些文字上也先做必要的調整上"},{"start":10131.144,"end":10132.866,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10149.537,"end":10172.202,"text":"我個人在這邊跟各位說明一下我認為說為什麼我一直我對於專法的部分內容我沒有太多意見但是為什麼我一直主張定在刑事訴訟法因為我認為說這個跟刑事訴訟法裡面搜索羈押、扣押這些東西都是相同概念的東西只是它是針對科技偵查或者是數位的資料"},{"start":10172.882,"end":10190.1,"text":"只是差在這個東西的不同所以不管是M化車、GPS或是熱血像這些其實這跟刑事訴訟法並沒有衝突啦所以我還是覺得說這個就是偵查中的強制處分本來就應該顯現在刑事訴訟法中這也跟德國的體力是一樣的"},{"start":10191.243,"end":10217.024,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10218.405,"end":10230.674,"text":"行政院說要訂定在專法裡面的原因是什麼?我到現在還是覺得有一點不可思議我再請教一下法務部請問一下為什麼要訂專法?"},{"start":10236.83,"end":10259.245,"text":"各位報告我各位報告其實我跟你講這不是說定在刑訴法也沒有問題但是基本上他是一個政策上的選擇就法務部在政策上他定一個專法就我們未來的整個政策實施會他修法方面也好或這個整個擴充也好比較容易所以我們是比較堅持說設在一個專法裡面我認為就是說如果你用那個一般賀足理論來看"},{"start":10260.646,"end":10279.582,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10280.583,"end":10305.644,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":10308.826,"end":10335.168,"text":"追蹤器的使用上的證據能力的問題一百一十一年也提到M化車使用上面的證據能力問題但是這麼久以來司法院卻完全不去就刑事訴訟法去修正所以導致這麼長的時間對於所有的犯罪偵查都出了問題這個不是只有出在詐欺案件這個出在所有的犯罪你可不可以去用就你今天用個打詐"},{"start":10336.598,"end":10360.934,"text":"怎麼集法這樣出來用這個名詞想要趕快把這個專法過我覺得如果我們今天是一個法治國家啦這東西能用不能用其實是針對所有的犯罪或是所有的特定犯罪而不能說好像我就是為了詐欺所以我搞了一個這個東西出來這一點我是沒有辦法理解所以我們再往下看"},{"start":10362.241,"end":10366.068,"text":"所以我認為說定在刑事訴訟法還是正本清源之道"},{"start":10367.945,"end":10395.957,"text":"有無證據能力或是證明力到甚麼地方這是法院法官的認定這不是檢察官的有權利可以說了就算所以說因為科技一直在變並不是說科技在變所以我要另立專法我覺得這個邏輯是有問題的應該是說科技一直在變所以我們要一個原則性的認定放在刑事訴訟法裡面這樣子才能夠保護人權這樣子才合理"},{"start":10397.148,"end":10406.567,"text":"所以我認為說我還是這樣建議啦如果可以的話我們還是就是說把它定在刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":10407.335,"end":10434.432,"text":"那我們在這一套對於這個科技偵查上面啊我們不但要做到事前的那個法官保留門檻的設計事中的程序監督還有事後的司法救濟以及相關是不是要通知比如說一些網路資料你之後是不是要通知當事人讓他有救濟的管道我覺得這都是我比較在乎的部分那這個部分再麻煩那個"},{"start":10436.681,"end":10456.573,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10457.91,"end":10480.859,"text":"是不是法務部要趕快會同司法院、警政署還有那個各支委員會的籌備處就科技偵查資料管理的內機跟內控的機制有一個完整的配套然後希望說兩個月內能夠給我好不好我想說這個才是首要的嘛因為我們已經講了很多次了"},{"start":10481.667,"end":10486.351,"text":"三個月內麻煩把這個報告提交三個月內就送交吳宗憲委員還有我們司法委員會的每位委員"},{"start":10508.856,"end":10529.363,"text":"謝謝兩位最後我要跟你們兩位說明一下我覺得對於數位的監控如果沒有一個完整的數位各自的保存機制以及控管的機制沒有人會喜歡這個尤其是最近王逸川事件之後很多人都覺得我的資料是被監控甚至在平常開玩笑的時候"},{"start":10530.307,"end":10552.662,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10564.639,"end":10579.56,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員下一位請賴世寶委員賴世寶委員賴世寶委員下一位我們請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":10587.457,"end":10608.157,"text":"主席謝謝我有看到我們有交通部民航局遙控無人機工作小組的執密是不是麻煩執密先請這執密來一下好不好我一個事情就教一下好執密"},{"start":10613.192,"end":10620.707,"text":"我請教我們現在民航局這邊有遙控無人機工作小組這些工作小組主要做的是什麼樣的工作?"},{"start":10621.478,"end":10627.463,"text":"主要針對民用航空法所規範的遙控無人機的管理事項針對遙控無人機的註冊、飛航活動申請還有相關的一些圖資的一些設定我們現在的科技來講比如說像我們講博愛特區這是很明顯的禁止遙控無人機這邊來做飛行對不對"},{"start":10642.915,"end":10665.501,"text":"如果說這個一般的王家業者他如果說要做飛行的話他沒有申請那他有可能會飛到博愛特去上空嗎他是不是有相關的科技方式來去做一個遮蔽或是干擾那這邊跟委員說明一下因為遙控無人機本身他是一個跟我們傳統的航空機不太一樣的地方是傳統航空機都是飛機製造商設計製造出來的"},{"start":10666.841,"end":10682.337,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10689.904,"end":10712.796,"text":"所以就這個部分來講在技術上面如何去對現在我們的遙控無人機的管理的話是行政程序上面不管是註冊或者是飛航活動申請甚至相關的法人跟自然人的權利義務大概都有一定的規範那只是我的問題你完全沒有針對我問題回答我現在問的是說如果說有些地方就是禁止飛航禁止用遙控無人機那"},{"start":10713.576,"end":10742.072,"text":"能夠用什麼樣的科技方式來去做一個阻擇是不是比如說像電子地圖這邊可以用遮蔽還是用什麼樣的方式讓他在那個地方訊號就可以沒有辦法來做飛行現在分成兩種一種是比較主動的做法的話就是在遙控無人機在設計制造的時候大的廠商他們會在裡面設計所謂的電子圍籬的方式去做處理這是一個目前現在最普遍的一個方式但是這樣子做的話只能對於"},{"start":10743.152,"end":10753.858,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":10770.586,"end":10787.394,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":10795.618,"end":10819.691,"text":"我覺得任何一個地方的無人機都不應該來去做侵犯我國領空的事情啊但到目前為止為什麼一直沒有這樣的防範那民航局這邊有相關的這個工作小組有沒有什麼專業的意見是可以提供就是說到底如果說有無人機它是進入到我國的領空而且這明顯就不是我們的無人機的話我們怎麼樣能夠把它打下來還是說只能用丟石頭的方式"},{"start":10820.606,"end":10841.811,"text":"五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之"},{"start":10844.312,"end":10865.28,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":10866.152,"end":10882,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":10893.846,"end":10909.076,"text":"三）刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之"},{"start":10918.922,"end":10945.578,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五"},{"start":10948.22,"end":10963.689,"text":"因為我們很多委員都在關心是說到底這個是要專章還是要做這個刑事訴訟法的一個修法啦齁那其中我們這一次的這個科證法的一個專法的部分那有一個採取的是法官保留原則"},{"start":10964.349,"end":10989.835,"text":"但是很多人也講法官現在的人力跟量能是不是足夠能夠讓第一線的執法者能夠負荷就意思就是說如果說專法的話之後檢警要使用科技方式偵查的話都必須要有法院的申請核可或是獲得核可書是不是那在看怎麼修法那目前現在看起來行政部門提出來的版本是這樣子嗎"},{"start":10991.135,"end":11008.665,"text":"刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百"},{"start":11009.113,"end":11022.547,"text":"那當然現在法官人力很吃緊嘛。是。很吃緊啊。很吃緊。所以這個就是說在相對重要的才法官保留啦。"},{"start":11024.392,"end":11051.226,"text":"相對重要的部分（等一等可是現在我們看到是說如果說以現在行政院所推出來的科技偵查跟保障法來做這樣專法的話那一方面希望能夠要有強化破案的工具但一方面又要兼顧人權保障所以草案的部分只要看到檢察官或是司法檢察需要實施調查各環節都會綁著法官保留原則就是都需要跟法院申請核可啊"},{"start":11051.886,"end":11066.555,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之"},{"start":11069.016,"end":11069.897,"text":"條文修正草案案 刑事訴訟法"},{"start":11085.986,"end":11107.601,"text":"這會不會反而到時候這樣的壓力也加諸在法官身上?這個目前看起來並不會說因為專法就法官人力就會比較少啦,並不會啦因為從這樣相關這樣比對起來都是差不多要法官保留的部分啦,都差不多啦"},{"start":11108.533,"end":11111.294,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":11134.281,"end":11158.727,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":11159.946,"end":11175.322,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":11176.203,"end":11191.033,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":11191.914,"end":11217.396,"text":"法官該保留然後法官該盡責的部分我們還是要努力啊該爭取言惡那是另外一個層次的問題啊。好民眾長我們之後也會再針對這部分來做相關的主條討論那其實現在有委員的版本以及這行政院希望能夠科證法的版本專法或是修刑事訴訟法我覺得在這個主條的部分該有司法院的一個態度跟角色事實你還是要提出來"},{"start":11217.776,"end":11236.425,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":11241.019,"end":11264.643,"text":"謝謝那我們下一位請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員謝一鳳委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員"},{"start":11268.618,"end":11282.497,"text":"那相關所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢尋答結束那委員諮詢時要求提供的相關資料或書面答覆請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":11283.638,"end":11293.068,"text":"二）委員翁曉林所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆。我們現在先處理會議時間。上午會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項的處理。"},{"start":11301.239,"end":11310.849,"text":"現在進行討論事項請議事人員先宣讀提案條文如果有修正動議請一併宣讀宣讀時間大約是35分鐘宣讀完畢之後休息到1點30分再繼續開會進行討論請宣讀"},{"start":11323.334,"end":11340.623,"text":"四十五條之一、第六十七條之第六十九條之規定與持務申請撤銷或變更檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察處分之期間者准用之。"},{"start":11341.924,"end":11365.227,"text":"五條之一、台灣民眾黨黨團及委員吳宗憲等提案第十一章之一章明均為科技偵查委員宗嘉斌等提案第十一條之一章明科技偵查及保障委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之一為規範科技偵查以保障人權並有效追溯犯罪確保國家安全維護社會秩序特制定本章"},{"start":11365.928,"end":11388.17,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之一,檢察官於偵查中任有必要時,得使用科技方法對位於非具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物實施調查。檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察應調查犯罪情形及收集證據任有必要時,亦同"},{"start":11389.051,"end":11404.128,"text":"但本法或其他法律有特別規定者依其規定。委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之二檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察應偵查或犯罪或調查犯罪情形及收集證據之必要"},{"start":11406.27,"end":11424.081,"text":"則使用科技方法但本法或其他法律有特別規定者依其規定。委員中嘉賓等提案第153條之一對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案除首具修正為偵查中檢察官任有必要時倒數第二具中本法修正為本章其餘從台灣民眾黨黨團提案。"},{"start":11426.242,"end":11444.139,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之二檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察依前條規定於空中實施調查者實施至期間不得於累計14日檢查事務官司法警察官任有再次或繼續實施是必要者"},{"start":11444.94,"end":11460.469,"text":"四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三百四十五條之一、三"},{"start":11460.889,"end":11480.218,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一"},{"start":11481.238,"end":11504.37,"text":"前向實施期間不得於連續二十四小時或累積於二日,實施當日不足二十四小時者宜日記。第一項所定之追蹤未至有再次或繼續實施是必要者,因於再次實施前或前向期間屆滿前,由檢察官依職員或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後,"},{"start":11505.11,"end":11516.177,"text":"以書面記載第153條之七第一項各款知識項並續名實施調查即必要性及其理由向該管法院申請合法許可書"},{"start":11518.525,"end":11538.493,"text":"實施前二項調查前可預期實施期間將於連續二十四小時或累計於二日者得於實施前依前項規定向該管法院申請和發許可書。前二項法院許可之期間每次不得於三十日,有繼續實施之必要者應於期間屆滿前至二日前。"},{"start":11541.32,"end":11556.577,"text":"之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由令向該管法院重新申請核發許可書。前三項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符。"},{"start":11557.659,"end":11584.989,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之三檢察官、檢察署官、司法警察官或司法警察因偵查或調查犯罪情形及收集證據之必要得使用全球衛星定位系統或其他非以辨識個人資料之科技方法追蹤位置實施期間以連續二十四小時或累計二日為限未滿一日者以一日論。"},{"start":11586.169,"end":11612.532,"text":"前項期間建碼後仍有實施必要者應由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第153條之六第一項各款知識項及理由申請該管法院合法許可書使用第一項科技方法前以預期實施將與連續24小時或累計於二日者亦應事先向法院申請合法許可書。"},{"start":11613.793,"end":11621.299,"text":"國營宗家兵等提案第一百五十三條之二對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一百五十三條之三第一項至第五項"},{"start":11623.157,"end":11646.646,"text":"除第一項首具修正為偵查中檢察官任有必要時第二句末句號修正為分號令增訂第二項前項措施限於對被告或犯罪嫌疑人為之但有事實認為與被告有聯繫或將建立聯繫之人且難以採其他方式調查被告或犯罪嫌疑人所在地時亦得為之"},{"start":11647.586,"end":11675.34,"text":"第三項由台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二項及第三項條文合併並將首具、具首的前項修正為第一項第三具末者自刪除,原第三項的首具刪除另第六具修正為致辭因於再次實施前或期間屆滿前另末具修正為以書面記載第153條之五第一項各款之事項向該管法院申請合法許可書"},{"start":11676.889,"end":11694.348,"text":"第五項第二句末鬥號修正為句號,第四句句首增定至遲二字,末句修正為以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書,其餘同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之三、第一項之第五項。"},{"start":11698.593,"end":11718.562,"text":"三條之四、檢查關於偵查中任有必要時得使用科技方法、調查行動通訊設備之位置、設備號碼或使用之卡片號碼、檢查事務官司法警察官或司法警察因調查犯罪及收集證據任有必要時一同。"},{"start":11721.424,"end":11732.759,"text":"五條之四、檢察官、檢察書官、司法警察官或司法警察應偵查或調查犯罪及收集證據之必要,得使用科技方法調查行動通訊設備之位置。"},{"start":11735.682,"end":11755.252,"text":"設備號碼或使用紙卡片號碼前向情形應由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第153條之六第一項各款知識項與理由申請該管法院核發許可書實施第一項調查時記述無可避免取得之第三人資料"},{"start":11756.423,"end":11767.921,"text":"除工作為第一項之比對目的外不得使用且於實施調查結束後應即刪除。」委員中嘉賓等提案第153條之三"},{"start":11772.399,"end":11791.415,"text":"對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一項對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之四除首具修正為偵查中檢察官任有必要時第二具末具號修正為分號第三具中因調查犯罪後增定情形二字"},{"start":11792.356,"end":11808.144,"text":"四十五條之一及於同台灣民眾黨黨團提案應第二項至第五項條文為前項措施限於對被告或犯罪嫌疑人為之但有事實認為接收或轉達於被告、犯罪嫌疑人或"},{"start":11809.244,"end":11837.692,"text":"原於被告犯罪嫌疑人之訊息之人或被告犯罪嫌疑人使用其通訊線路或資訊設備之人亦得為之。第一項情形因由檢察官依職權或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第153條之五第一項各款之事項向該管法院申請核發許可書。前項許可之期間每次不得於三十日"},{"start":11838.252,"end":11865.125,"text":"有繼續實施之必要者致時應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請可發許可書實施第一項調查時應技術上無可避免取得第三人之個人資料除未公第一項之比對目的外不得使用且於調查實施結束後應其刪除"},{"start":11865.925,"end":11895.366,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之五,檢察官就最重本刑三年以上有企圖刑之罪進行偵查中有相當理由認為具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與所偵查之犯罪事實相關,得使用非侵入性之科技方法自該空間外對該空間內之活動或事物進行監看及攝影"},{"start":11897.421,"end":11907.089,"text":"三）檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察因調查最重本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪、知犯罪情形及收集證據任有必要時議同"},{"start":11910.4,"end":11934.875,"text":"五條之五、檢察官、檢察署官、司法警察官或司法警察偵查或調查最輕本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪由事實主任具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與本案有關者得在該空間外使用非實體侵入之科技方法監視或涉入該空間內之人或物"},{"start":11936.024,"end":11956.495,"text":"前項情形應由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第一百五十三條之六條第一項各款之四項與條與理由申請該管法院合法許可書第一百二十七條之規定準用之文宗教兵等提案第一百五十三條之四"},{"start":11957.396,"end":11971.893,"text":"檢察官、偵察或檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察調查最重本刑三年以上有歧途刑之罪,有相當理由認為具隱私或秘密合理期待之空間內之人或物與本案有關。"},{"start":11974.69,"end":11995.221,"text":"則從該空間外使用非實體侵入性質科技方法對開空間內之人或物堅看及攝錄影像,前項情形應由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第153條之五第一項各款知識項向該管法院申請核發許可書。"},{"start":11996.221,"end":12014.706,"text":"前項許可之期間每次不得於三十日有機率實施之必要者,至時應於期間屆滿至二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官、報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請合法許可書第一項之調查準用第127條之規定台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之六"},{"start":12019.454,"end":12043.793,"text":"前二條之情形應由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載第一百五十三條之七第一項各款之事項並敘述實施調查之必要性及其理由向該管法院申請核發許可書。前項許可之期間每次不得於三十日有積蓄實施之必要者應於期間屆滿之二日前由檢察官依職權或由司法檢察官報請檢查。"},{"start":12046.155,"end":12062.065,"text":"或由司法警察官報請檢察官許可後以書面記載具體理由向該管法院申請核發許可書。前二項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之七法院一第153條之三第153條之六"},{"start":12064.887,"end":12085.832,"text":"和發之許可書應記載下列事項一（案由其涉嫌觸犯制法條二（受調查之人或物但受調查人不明者得不予記載三（使用之科技方法及其設備與實施方式四（使用科技方法調查所得取得之資料"},{"start":12087.438,"end":12099.463,"text":"五執行機關六許可實施之期間許可書由法官簽名法官並得於許可書上對執行機關為適當之指示合法許可書之程序不公開之"},{"start":12101.38,"end":12126.838,"text":"委員吳宗憲等提案第一百五十三條之六、第一百五十三條之三至第一百五十三條之五之許可書應記載下列事項一、案由及涉犯之法條二、受調查人或物但受調查人不明者得不予記載三、使用之科技方法及得取得之標的四、科技方法之裝設或實施方式五、執行機關六實施期間"},{"start":12127.739,"end":12148.076,"text":"第153條之三與第153條之四之調查期間不得於三十日有繼續實施之必要者應由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可後檢據具體理由致詞於期間屆滿至二日前申請該管法院裁定延長之每次延長不得於三十日。"},{"start":12149.097,"end":12169.515,"text":"五十三條之五之調查期間已累積十日為限,未滿一日者以一日論。法院合法許可書之程序不公開之但得為許可書上對執行人員為適當之指示。第一百五十三條之三至第一百五十三條之五之申請請法院駁回者不得聲明不符。"},{"start":12170.575,"end":12192.322,"text":"文宗貂兵等提案第一百五十三條之五、第一百五十三條之二之第一百五十三條之四之許可書應記載下列事項一、案由及涉犯之法條二、受調查人或物但受調查人不明者得不予記載三、使用之科技方法及使用該科技方法調查得取得之標的"},{"start":12193.622,"end":12208.797,"text":"四前款之裝涉或實施方式五實施調查之必要性及其理由六執行機關期實施期間合法許可書之程序不公開之法院並得於許可書上對執行人員為適當之指示"},{"start":12211.363,"end":12226.214,"text":"第一百五十三條之二至第一百五十三條之四之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一百五十三條之八與下列情形之一檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察"},{"start":12226.954,"end":12241.645,"text":"有相當理由認為情況急迫而有再次繼續或立即實施各該科技方法之必要者得進行實施並因於實施後三日內依該規定以書面申請該管法院補發許可書。"},{"start":12243.286,"end":12272.185,"text":"一、實施第153條之三、第一項之調查以於連續二十四小時或以累計於二日。二、實施第153條之四、第153條之五之調查。前項之調查有下列情形之一者應立即停止。一、檢察官不許可或於報勤日期於三日未為許可之決定。二、法院不補發許可書或於申請日期於三日未為補發許可書之裁定。法院許可者"},{"start":12273.569,"end":12279.748,"text":"實施期間至實施之日起算第一項之申請請法院博會者不得聲明不符"},{"start":12282.705,"end":12304.771,"text":"五條之七、檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察使用第一百五十三條之三之科技方法以於連續二十四小時或累計於二日後,有相當理由認為情況急迫有立即實施必要者得進行為之,並因於實施後三日內由檢察官或司法警察官報請檢察官許可。"},{"start":12305.471,"end":12324.322,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第八百五條之一、第"},{"start":12327.267,"end":12341.088,"text":"二）法院駁回申請或申請日期三日內未補發許可書。法院補發許可書者,實施期間至實施之日起算。第一項之申請經駁回者不得聲明不符。"},{"start":12342.625,"end":12356.926,"text":"委員仲嘉斌等提案第153條之六於下列情形之一檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察有相當理由認為情況急迫而有利及實施是必要者得進行實施並因於實施後三日內"},{"start":12357.867,"end":12381.78,"text":"一（各該條規定以書面申請該管法院補發許可書一（實施第153條之二第一項之調查已於連續二十四小時或已累積於二日實施當日不足二十四小時以一日計二（實施第153條之三或第153條之四之調查前項之調查有下列情形之一者應立即停止實施"},{"start":12382.921,"end":12394.875,"text":"一、檢察官不許可或於報請日期於三日未為許可之決定二）法院未補發許可書或於申請日期於三日未為補發許可書之裁定。"},{"start":12396.192,"end":12416.799,"text":"法院補發許可書者實施期間日實施之日起算第一項之申請經法院駁回者不得聲明不符。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之九經法院第一第153條之三第153條之六前條第一項合法許可書實施之調查結束後呼籲前條第二項停止實施後"},{"start":12417.979,"end":12436.062,"text":"執行機關應及訓名受調查人之姓名住所或居所第153條之七第一項各款及許可書文號實際調查期間有無獲得調查目的之資料及救濟程序報由檢察官呈報法院通知受調查人"},{"start":12437.458,"end":12450.954,"text":"如任通知有防害調查目的之予或不能通知者應一併呈報。調查結束或停止實施後檢查關於一個月人位於前項之呈報者人位為前項之呈報者"},{"start":12452.97,"end":12469.805,"text":"法院應於十四日內主動通知受調查人但不能通知者不在此限。法院對於第一項呈報除有具體理由主任通知有妨礙調查目的之餘或不能通知之情形外應通知受調查人"},{"start":12470.405,"end":12488.139,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":12489.5,"end":12513.465,"text":"委員胡宗憲等提案第153條之八、一、第153條之二至第153條之五、第153條之七至調查結束或停止後執行機關應續名受調查人至姓名、住所或居所許可書合發機關文號實際調查期間有無獲得調查目的之資料及救濟程序呈報該管檢察官及法院由法院通知受調查人"},{"start":12514.205,"end":12528.436,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、"},{"start":12536.923,"end":12556.544,"text":"除有具體理由、主任通知有妨害調查目的之餘、通知顯有困難或不能通知者外應通知受調查人不通知之原因消滅後執行機關應呈報法院補刑通知原因未消滅者應於第一項呈報後每三個月向法院呈報未消滅之情形"},{"start":12557.105,"end":12573.9,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五"},{"start":12574.881,"end":12591.649,"text":"第153條之二至第153條之五、第153條之七之調查所得資料除以公案件證據之用留存於該案件或為後續偵查或調查目的有必要長期留存者外由執行機關"},{"start":12592.769,"end":12601.956,"text":"於調查結束後保存五年欲期欲銷毀。調查所的資料全部與調查目的無關者執行機關應及報請檢察官許可後銷毀之。且二項資料銷毀時應報請檢察官派員在場"},{"start":12609.793,"end":12630.264,"text":"委員宗嘉斌等提案第153條之七對照委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之八除第一項前段修正為經法院一第153條之二至第153條之四前條核發或補發許可書實施之調查結束或依前條第二項停止實施後"},{"start":12631.405,"end":12653.36,"text":"令倒數第二句中通知前增定通言二字第二項修正為調查結束或停止實施後執行機關於一個月未為前項之呈報者法院應十四日內主動通知受調查人但通知前有困難或不能通知者法院得不通知受調查人"},{"start":12655.322,"end":12681.722,"text":"第三項第二句末不能通知者修正為不能通知之情形第四項首句句首前增定第一項等三個字另第五項由委員吳宗憲等提案第六項及第七項條文合併並將首句修正為第153條之二至第153條之四前條之調查所得之資料其餘通委員吳宗憲等提案第153條之八第一項至第四項第六項及第七項條文"},{"start":12683.263,"end":12704.403,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第153條之十、第153條之一至第153條之六、第153條之八之調查所得資料除以公案件證據之用而留存於個案卷或為後續偵查或調查之目的而有必要與留存者外,由執行機關於調查結束後保存五年。"},{"start":12704.923,"end":12709.304,"text":"五十三條之一至第一百五十三條之八之規定實施調查文無宗憲等提案第一百五十三條之九"},{"start":12735.632,"end":12762.525,"text":"為執行刑事裁判除其他法律令有規定外檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察得准用第153條之二至第153條之八之規定實施調查。委員仲佳斌等提案第153條之八為執行刑事裁判除其他法律令有規定外檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察得准用第153條之一至前條之規定實施調查。"},{"start":12765.628,"end":12779.521,"text":"三條之十二、受調查人對於第一百五三條之三之第一百五三條之六、第一百五三條之八第一百五三條之十一之裁定或處分不符者得提起抗告或申請撤銷或變更之"},{"start":12780.674,"end":12784.698,"text":"五條之五、第153條之七及第153條之九之裁定或處分不符者得依本法提起抗告或申請撤銷或變更之"},{"start":12797.529,"end":12817.459,"text":"五條之一、第二百五十三條之九、受調查人對於第一百五十三條之二至第一百五十三條之五、第一百五十三條之六、第一百五十三條之八之裁定或處分不符者,得依本法第四邊之規定提起抗告或申請撤銷或變更之,委員中加並等提案第一百五十三條之十。"},{"start":12818.659,"end":12832.15,"text":"法官或檢察官執行本章而由法官法第三十條第二項或第八十九條第四項各款刑事質疑者應移送個案評鑑。文宗嘉賓等提案第153條之十一、一第153條之二至第153條之四"},{"start":12833.951,"end":12851.354,"text":"五條或第一百五十三條之六之調查取得其他案件之內容者不得作為證據但於發現後七日內五行呈報法院並經法院審查認可該案件與時事科技偵查這案件具有關聯性者不再此現"},{"start":12852.395,"end":12868.307,"text":"一、第一百五三條之二至第一百五三條之四或第一百五三條之六之調查所取得之內容或所衍生之證據與偵查目的無關者不得作為司法偵查審判其他程序之證據或其他用途並予以銷毀"},{"start":12870.442,"end":12889.699,"text":"違反第153條之二至第153條之四或第153條之六規定進行科技偵查行為所取得之內容或所衍生之證據於司法偵查、審判或其他程序中均不得采為證據或其他用途並因予以銷毀。司法院行政院提案"},{"start":12891.167,"end":12907.655,"text":"檢案司法院版第二百四十五條除第二項第三具修正為並得筆記及陳述意見。第四具具首但有事實主任其在場二字三除其餘未修正。"},{"start":12909.775,"end":12936.527,"text":"以案行政院版第二百四十五條對照假案司法院版除增訂第三項及第四項為前項限制或禁止事由應記名與筆錄檢察官檢察署官司法警察官或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場是被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同應在刑告之第九十五條第一項第二款第三款之事項"},{"start":12937.948,"end":12961.567,"text":"令第五項至第七項由原第三項至第四項條文遞移其於同假案司法院版。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二百四十五條對照已案行政院版除第二項第三具修正為並得陳述意見及筆記令第三項及第四項修正為依前項但書限制或禁止筆記時"},{"start":12962.768,"end":12982.908,"text":"有相當理由認為情況急迫有立即扣押之必要者得進行扣押其筆記並準用第一百三十三條之二第四項規定。第二項段數限制或禁止之事由及前項進行扣押之情形與理由均應盡名於筆錄其與同議案行政院反"},{"start":12985.424,"end":13009.964,"text":"委員羅智強等提案第二百四十五條除第五項修正為第一項偵查不公開之作業與處罰另以法律定之其餘未修正委員沈博洋等提案第二百四十五條除第二項後段修正為並得隨時與被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通陳述意見以筆記或以其他電子設備輔助記錄在場之見聞其餘未修正"},{"start":13016.044,"end":13035.557,"text":"司法院、行政院提案、假案司法院版第二百四十五條之一、被告犯罪嫌疑人及其辯護人對於前條第二項但書之限制或禁止不負責,得向該管法院申請撤銷或變更之。前項申請期間為十日,自為限制或"},{"start":13036.718,"end":13047.896,"text":"禁止之日起算其為送達者自送達後起算法院不得已以執行終結而無失意為由撥回"},{"start":13050.834,"end":13070.469,"text":"四十九條及第四百十四條及第四百十七條及第四百十八條規定於本條準用之。議案行政院判第二百四十五條之一對照假案司法院判除第三項條文中第四百十八條後增訂第二項。"},{"start":13072.068,"end":13097.416,"text":"令增定第四項條文為對於第一項之裁定不得抗告其餘同假案。司法院反委員審博揚等提案第二百四十五條之一有事實主任被告之辯護人有妨害國家機密或有湮滅偽造、變造證據或勾串共犯或證人者檢察官應申請法院限制前條第二項之權利"},{"start":13099.042,"end":13114.555,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":13125.953,"end":13143.738,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四"},{"start":13144.98,"end":13162.11,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":13164.158,"end":13191.977,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第四百十六條除第一項增訂第四款為對於第二百四十五條第二項但書限制或禁止辯護人在場陳述意見或筆記之處分令第五款由原第四款條文遞移其餘未修正宣讀完畢現在休息依先前宣告下午一點三十分繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":16294.428,"end":16295.213,"text":"四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之"},{"start":18112.807,"end":18139.803,"text":"好謝謝大家那我們繼續開會討論事項提案條文均已宣讀完畢現在進行討論事項並案審查司法院行政院函請審議刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案等六案好那請問就在座的各位委員是否要進行大體討論"},{"start":18143.359,"end":18150.884,"text":"我是建議直接進主條啦。好,謝謝。好,那就這部分呢那我們就省略大敵討論,直接進行主條審查。好。"},{"start":18170.657,"end":18192.582,"text":"好那我們現在就徵定第七十條之一請各位委員表達意見啊沈委員啊主席齁這個第七十條之一應該是舊舊紀的條文嘛齁那舊紀的條文"},{"start":18196.601,"end":18223.714,"text":"我想如果大家沒有什麼意見我們是建議就照行政院的版本來通過好不好請問司法院或法務部有沒有意見要表示沒有意見那都沒有意見的話我們就依照司法院行政院提案通過議案行政院版通過"},{"start":18225.037,"end":18241.312,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。」案。再來,徵定第十一章之一章名。總共有台灣民眾黨團提案以及委員吳宗憲等二十人提案及委員鍾嘉斌等十八人提案。請問各位委員有無意見要補充。"},{"start":18247.438,"end":18274.115,"text":"好,沈委員主席這個部分是不是我們因為跟這個科技偵查法接下來跟科這個也跟未來會不到底是科技偵查法跟這個刑事訴訟法的我們那時候上個禮拜是說這兩岸並就並程到那個政黨協商裡面去協商那所以是不是我這程序上是不是我們都照案通過還是都保留"},{"start":18274.955,"end":18298.972,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18318.8,"end":18329.389,"text":"這跟各位委員報告因為他有一些在條號上面還是有所不同所以是不是我們用保留送協商的方式比較好"},{"start":18330.285,"end":18345.297,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18347.302,"end":18371.878,"text":"這裡面有一些版本並不全然與科技偵查法重疊。有一些溢出了科技偵查法的範圍。所以我是建議說我們還是一條一條處理。但是這個章明的部分我們先保留送協商以這個對未來保留跟未來科技偵查法在協商的時候的結果再來決定。"},{"start":18374,"end":18374.261,"text":"三）委員羅智強"},{"start":18392.137,"end":18413.662,"text":"國昌委員你們的想法怎麼樣可以啊因為當初其實在審科證法的時候大家就有一個共識了嘛那就科證法的部分到時候是要跟刑事訴訟法那我們一起要在黨團協商的過程當中來於第一個做立法上面的決斷嘛那第二個"},{"start":18415.222,"end":18431.374,"text":"條文細緻的部分到那個時候可以再進行進一步的討論因為如果說連到底要採取科偵法還是要採取刑訴法立法體力上面最上位的問題大家都已經同意要保留的話"},{"start":18432.812,"end":18459.114,"text":"當然就這個章名的部分予以保留我覺得是一個合理的選擇因為如果連最上位的問題都保留下面我們今天通過了什麼樣的章名通過了什麼樣的條文那不就代表了是說我們今天在委員會已經做出決策要把它放在刑訴法嗎?確定要這樣子做嗎?還是說確定這件事情是要在委員會的層級來予以討論嗎?"},{"start":18462.796,"end":18488.273,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第百五條之一、第百五條之一、第"},{"start":18492.256,"end":18502.103,"text":"就採取用刑事訴訟法立法的模式嗎?」那如果今天在委員會大家有共識就要採取用刑事訴訟法立法的體力的話"},{"start":18503.353,"end":18524.255,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":18526.757,"end":18545.222,"text":"連最上位立法體力的方式大家都同意保留協商那就沒有必要在張明的這個地方現在好像急著或是硬要要去做什麼確定的處理我基本上面的看法是這個樣子那因為昭緯自己也是其中一個重要版本的提案人嘛"},{"start":18546.562,"end":18571.707,"text":"我先代表台灣民眾黨黨團表示我們的看法當然我也尊重召委以及司法法制委員會其他委員的高見好 謝謝那這樣子齁我們就是一樣尊重嘛就是身為你們覺得還是一條一條發言嘛 對不對然後我們最後可能若照這樣的話可能每個條文最後都還是要走向保留啦好 謝謝"},{"start":18574.093,"end":18594.715,"text":"好那好民主黨在這邊提出一個問題就是說那假如司法因為現在到最後如何都還未定那假如說司法院對這個第十一章之一假如說張明然後有一些意見這個能不能互代提出來"},{"start":18596.442,"end":18613.516,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18615.493,"end":18639.86,"text":"司法院如果連書面都準備好現在發一發啦沒有必要長航第一次質詢你這個問題的時候我就一直問司法院有沒有想法有沒有參與有沒有版本那既然司法院包括我們刑事廳的同仁都有一些想法出來的話歡迎你們把司法院的書面提出來因為我們如果到時候"},{"start":18640.62,"end":18665.508,"text":"政策決斷上面要定在刑事訴訟法的話我們當然也希望能夠聆聽司法院的一些高見所以你們現在有版本有書面現在就全部是不是發給各位委員?都都有版本因為不管怎樣刑事訴訟法是司法院主政的我們當然要就各種可能情況我們也準備一大本準備一大本"},{"start":18668.117,"end":18684.567,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":18685.034,"end":18712.863,"text":"我們一共有準備這個37頁啦因為畢竟怎樣這是我們主政的嘛所以秘書長你今天要拿出來嘛如果拿出來我們就列入公報紀錄裡面對啊就是提出來因為一步一步啊因為今天到這種程序我們還是要提出來啊我沒有意見就是看秘書長你要不要提出來就是給大家然後我這邊也幫你列入公報的紀錄還是提出來"},{"start":18714.529,"end":18730.662,"text":"就是還是要提出來啦還是要提出來因為那這個是不是說如果你們沒有那麼多份那你交給我們議事人員由議事人員去引印給大家好不好一共37頁啦37頁我們"},{"start":18733.018,"end":18735.78,"text":"二）司法院及法務部對於徵定第十一章之一章名的部分你們要補充什麼嗎?"},{"start":18763.016,"end":18784.186,"text":"如果沒有意見要補充的話,那本章章名的部分,因為我們看到他的體力的問題,他是放在第一篇的總則章裡面。那原先的章名是用科技偵查,會跟第二篇的第一節,那個所謂的偵查那個名字會重複啦。"},{"start":18785.126,"end":18807.364,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18812.973,"end":18829.053,"text":"因為你的特殊齁其實你也是在反映他科技偵查的本質嘛那你如果說就特殊的強制處分就是科技偵查的強制處分那這樣子的一個章名是不是更能夠反映這個章裡面條文實質的內容"},{"start":18831.058,"end":18831.979,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":18849.693,"end":18865.478,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":18866.678,"end":18890.339,"text":"已經遠遠跟不上科技進步的腳步了但在本質上因為你那種特殊的強制處分的這一種章名之本身還是沒有辦法反映這一章裡面你所要規範的一個內容所以我贊成結論保留但就章名的部分就是說剛剛司法院某個程度上也說尊重"},{"start":18891.32,"end":18907.52,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第六百四十五條之"},{"start":18908.021,"end":18930.438,"text":"也可以請司法院因為我們今天大概就是把條文大家表示一下看法把它走過去那最後到決斷的時候啦按照上一次會議的結論還是要到黨團協商嘛那在這段時間當中也可以請我們司法院不管是廳長還是秘書長回去再好好的思考一下"},{"start":18937.661,"end":18939.203,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":18956.909,"end":18984.591,"text":"接下來我們審查第153條之一有委員吳宗憲等二十人提案請問就本條徵定的部分各位委員有沒有意見要補充?總委員主席我們這個153之一分別在民眾黨團版跟我個人的版本當中它就直接進入了所謂的政策空間的定義那這個有點像是一個章節的一個"},{"start":18987.005,"end":19000.229,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案的說明,而我是覺得因為體力上另外兩個版本沒有寫這一個,那未來我們再進入到後面的153之一的民眾黨黨本的時候,就會變得會"},{"start":19003.732,"end":19005.614,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":19026.09,"end":19052.803,"text":"那還是說就這個部分大家反正就保留我們送協商嘛因為我這個題其實跟其他黨的153之一其實是不一樣除非你說對我這個內容有意見是好謝謝那就是委員吳宗憲等20人提案的153之一條文我們就予以保留送協商另外還有一個"},{"start":19057.222,"end":19066.757,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":19067.565,"end":19088,"text":"這個都還未定嘛,假如定在刑事訴訟法站在司法院的立場一定要做總的盤整啦。一定是要這樣盤整的啦。所以等一下我們印下去的37頁我們是不得不把所有條文都要盤整啦。初步我們是認為這一條沒有增訂的必要啦。那當然就"},{"start":19088.82,"end":19113.453,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具:「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":19113.973,"end":19131.778,"text":"三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條"},{"start":19144.976,"end":19161.541,"text":"三十七頁的資料我們都會列入公報那在協商的時候我想說大家也會拿出來討論啊如果說看法跟這個這三頁內容一樣的話口頭上面是不用多補充好謝謝秘書長好那我們現在在審查地好"},{"start":19165.781,"end":19182.88,"text":"我們在審查第三號就徵令第153條之一有台灣民眾黨提案及委員吳宗憲等20人提案徵令第153條之二還有委員鍾嘉賓等18人提案請問就徵令的153條之一郭委員有沒有意見要補充請黃委員"},{"start":19188.483,"end":19205.153,"text":"因為在立法的體力上我必須要說之前法務部說你們要用228跟230當作基礎但我可能要邀請法務部再回去把228跟230再重新看一次228跟230他在處理的是有關於偵查的發動"},{"start":19206.494,"end":19230.917,"text":"以及檢察官對於檢察事務官也好對於司法警察也好他們所在發動的偵查的指揮權也就是這個屬於上對下人對人偵查發動以及人對人的指揮權的部分他事實上沒有涉及到偵查手段的部分沒有涉及到偵查手段的部分"},{"start":19232.599,"end":19247.538,"text":"當228跟230沒有涉及到偵查手段的部分你們很快的去下一個結論說用228、230就可以我對於法務部下這樣子的結論我是有一點擔心的因為"},{"start":19248.399,"end":19266.376,"text":"你們下這樣子的結論接下來法院在實際的審判上面會不會支持你所講這樣子的結論我真的有一點擔心那如果是這樣子的話就有關於偵查手段的部分手段的部分我們剛剛講過了"},{"start":19267.937,"end":19283.383,"text":"強制處分的手段有搜索扣押等等等等針對手段的部分然後有一個比較明確的有一個比較明確的授權條款我會認為比較符合我們在刑事訴訟法裡面針對法定證據主義"},{"start":19286.944,"end":19305.507,"text":"所採取的立法力的精神。」我希望這件事情法務部可以再慎重的想一下。那第二個部分就針對法條上面實際的內容我想要問一下是說目前比如說我們在跟監嫌犯或是犯罪嫌疑人的時候"},{"start":19306.653,"end":19336.153,"text":"他們假設開了一台車子到公用的停車場不管是地上地下的停車場他們開了一台車子到公用的停車場在那個車子裡面車子裡面的行動我們現在在解釋上面他到底是不是一個具有隱私期待的空間這個是我的第二個問題因為這個會牽涉到我們到時候在法條適用的時候以及你所採取的科技偵查手段的時候"},{"start":19337.253,"end":19359.861,"text":"所會影響到的事情。」第三個問題是什麼?第三個問題是說,譬如說今天我們對於所謂非具有隱私空間的當你對於非具有隱私空間用科技手段進行長期大規模有系統的監控的時候"},{"start":19362.262,"end":19383.468,"text":"你沒有辦法只因為說他不是具有隱私期待的空間就會認為說這一件事情沒有什麼其他授權或者是規範的必要性這個是我比較擔心的事情我再說一次傳統上面認為非具有隱私期待的空間你如果對他進行"},{"start":19386.69,"end":19404.905,"text":"長時間有系統、大規模的監視。」那這種在傳統的偵查手段上面是很難想像因為你要耗費的偵查人力成本太高了但是如果你是用科技手段來予以處理的話那這種長時間有系統、大規模的監控"},{"start":19408.587,"end":19428.628,"text":"就變成不是沒有辦法想像的事情。」那在這樣子的情況下是不是你們還是認為用228跟230可以當成授權的基礎我還是有一點擔心那所以這件事情我是希望法務部再回去想一下"},{"start":19429.449,"end":19444.879,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":19453.001,"end":19480.263,"text":"和序號第三的徵定第153條之一就予以保留送協商。」好那我們現在審查第四編號四台灣民眾黨黨團提案徵定第153條之二那提案為台灣民眾黨黨團那請問就本條各位委員有沒有意見要補充好那沒有的話請問司法院或法務部有沒有意見要補充"},{"start":19481.92,"end":19499.754,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19517.756,"end":19519.75,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19532.698,"end":19552.015,"text":"主席,能不能請司法院,因為我看到司法院的意見那他這個本條的意見153之二就是指台灣民眾黨團版的部分他這裡強調空中調查僅是一種調查方法那這個部分可不可以你們可以再深論一下"},{"start":19553.888,"end":19577.46,"text":"因為你們是為無爭定的必要麻煩廳長或秘書長那我就舉謝謝委員指教那我就空中偵查部分我就舉無人機的這個作為例子那無人機的話基本上都是認為是個中性的載具當他用來他的如果使用的目的是在追蹤人的定位的時候那可能就回歸回歸到那個科證法的第二條的草案裡面的"},{"start":19578.301,"end":19584.503,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19586.494,"end":19612.649,"text":"對宅外或對宅內的一些相關的監錄的話那個回歸到課偵法草案的第四條相關的規定所以根據他的載具的方式跟他的偵查目的的不同他所侵犯的干預的基本權就會不一樣那各自回歸到課偵法第二條、第三條、第四條這邊的規定所以我是初步的說明是這樣子以上"},{"start":19616.245,"end":19640.05,"text":"請黃委員有沒有要補充這基本上是兩是根本上是三件不一樣的事情你說齁就回到有關於第三條的部分那第三條的部分他在用的是什麼行動通訊設備的位置設備的號碼那這個跟空中實施沒有關係嘛那你再回到剛剛你所講的"},{"start":19642.168,"end":19656.473,"text":"就前面就有關於衛星定位系統或其他非辨別個人生物特徵追蹤他的位置那你現在在講的是追蹤的問題嗎但問題是我老實講我這個東西放在空中"},{"start":19657.293,"end":19680.423,"text":"你要記得齁我長時間的把那個東西放在所謂你一般認為沒有具有隱私期待的地方所收集到的資訊你收集一天可能沒有什麼收集兩天沒有什麼當你收集到了14天甚至超過一個月有系統的在分辨"},{"start":19681.544,"end":19705.672,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":19706.476,"end":19721.385,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":19722.345,"end":19737.624,"text":"有必要進行任何的控管?」這個是在定這個條文的時候我們在思考的方向。因為按照你們現在的方式我擔心的事情是什麼?我擔心的事情是你們把刑訴228跟230"},{"start":19739.887,"end":19757.4,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":19758.16,"end":19772.051,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19782.071,"end":19801.35,"text":"司法警察在發動犯罪偵查的時候他具有指揮的權限其實只有這兩件事情沒有擴及於其他當然你們這樣子法條讓我做法條這樣子解釋就會讓大家開始擔心說如果這麼是概括的偵查手段全部在228跟230涵蓋的範圍當中的話"},{"start":19804.333,"end":19820.743,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19821.856,"end":19840.338,"text":"基本上黃委員剛剛所做的質疑是讓我們在在之前我們在演繹的時候也討論過當時是認為說是空中偵查的定義不夠明確那到底要怎麼去做定義基本上我不反對基本上不反對但是呢我們認為說可以用其他的條文來涵蓋的主要的理由"},{"start":19840.578,"end":19855.445,"text":"就好像說你會長時間的監看那才是對人的定位追蹤的相同的目的這時候就設置到24小時或者是累積兩天累積兩日的部分來做規範那是我們當時的初步的想法"},{"start":19856.065,"end":19875.539,"text":"但是因為我知道委員講的是對非隱私空間的部分單純的監看的時候因為我們涉及到說空拍機當時在空中監看的時候可能涉及到所謂的一般的財產損失的勘查或是水土保值的勘查或是其他其他非人的監視目的的勘查的時候"},{"start":19875.919,"end":19886.193,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19889.144,"end":19907.209,"text":"OK,那你還有補充嗎?沒有齁?好,那這樣齁,我想說大家意見都很充足了,那也都有那個激進意識路齁,那像我們是不是就民眾黨團所提案的徵定第153條之二本條我們就保留送協商。"},{"start":19908.349,"end":19934.203,"text":"條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十"},{"start":19937.158,"end":19961.758,"text":"沒有的話本條文我們就保留送協商現在進行排序第六徵定第153條之四提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員吳宗憲等20人提案委員鍾嘉斌等18人提案徵定第153條之三請問各位委員有沒有意見要補充"},{"start":19963.136,"end":19965.53,"text":"那沒有的話請問法務部及司法院有意見補充"},{"start":19966.826,"end":19992.584,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、"},{"start":19995.442,"end":20015.599,"text":"請問法務部司法院有無意見補充沒有本條保留送協商現在進行排序第八增訂第153條之六提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案請問各位委員有無意見補充"},{"start":20017.418,"end":20019.779,"text":"五條之五條之五條之五。請問各位委員有無意見補充?"},{"start":20045.746,"end":20072.198,"text":"十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":20075.66,"end":20099.871,"text":"條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十"},{"start":20101.991,"end":20104.174,"text":"三條之十提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案,請問各位委員有無意見補充?"},{"start":20122.037,"end":20146.689,"text":"請問法務部或司法院有無意見補充沒有好謝謝那本條保留送協商好那現在進行審查排序第十三徵定第153條之十提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員吳宗憲等二十人提案徵定第153條之九委員鍾嘉斌等十八人提案徵定第153條之八請問各位委員有無意見補充"},{"start":20149.73,"end":20172.22,"text":"法務部司法院有無意見補充?沒有。謝謝。本條保留送協商。現在審查排序第十四徵定一五三條之十二。提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員吳宗憲等二十人提案徵定第一五三條之十委員鍾嘉斌等十八人提案徵定第一五三條之九請問各位委員有無意見補充?"},{"start":20174.958,"end":20201.645,"text":"條,法務部司法院有無意見補充?沒有謝謝本條保留送協商現在審查排序第十五徵定第一五三條之十提案人鍾嘉斌委員等十八人提案請問各位委員有無意見補充?沒有請問法務部司法院有無意見補充?沒有本條保留送協商"},{"start":20203.625,"end":20214.788,"text":"十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":20230.669,"end":20252.022,"text":"司法院、行政院提案假案司法院版司法院、行政院提案已案行政院版台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員羅智強等27人提案委員沈伯陽等18人提案請問各位委員就本條文有無意見要補充好是請說"},{"start":20254.517,"end":20265.253,"text":"好謝謝主席那我針對那個第245條的部分那個沈柏洋委員提案的部分那他是以其他這個電子設備輔助記錄的部分來做"},{"start":20271.186,"end":20288.541,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20289.702,"end":20317.407,"text":"也比較能夠因應我們科技發展的這個工作的習慣那對於電子設備記錄的範圍、形式及這個排除等限縮的這個調整能夠有妥善的規範是不是就能夠通用若能夠把這一條這個補充進去我相信對未來我們這個辯護人來說會帶來一個很大的方便這早上在這個巡討的時候也跟我們秘書長還有那個"},{"start":20318.507,"end":20329.837,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20331.511,"end":20352.448,"text":"我先直接請教一下那個司法院跟法務部因為這個事情要講清楚我先不處理從公開法庭開始講我們在目前公開法庭的情況之下當事人或者是辯護人在公開法庭的情況之下可不可以錄音錄影"},{"start":20354.414,"end":20365.628,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五"},{"start":20366.708,"end":20392.492,"text":"審判長在特殊情況之下同意才可以對嘛因為我們到時候在有關於訴訟程序的進行我們是採取法定證據主義嘛是不是有遵守訴訟程序的規定那在這樣的情況之下我們一般在釐清比如說在看驗當初筆錄上面的記載是不是正確的時候我們都是調什麼法庭的光碟"},{"start":20394.393,"end":20421.298,"text":"對戶人也可以申請法庭的光碟來看嘛如果在公開審判的時候我們是不可以錄影錄影的在偵查階段的時候可不可以錄影錄影這個要說清楚喔這個一定要說清楚第二個憲法法庭在那個具體的案例當中就有關於那個律師筆記的權利在那個憲法法庭"},{"start":20423.021,"end":20437.34,"text":"整個案子是那個時候那個律師他事實上就在做筆記嘛他後來檢察官就不准嘛不准了以後那個檢察官做了什麼事情他是把他筆記給扣了下來"},{"start":20439.681,"end":20461.432,"text":"現在在行政院的版本當中就如果發現了一模一樣的情況我們本文是允許做筆記這個沒有問題那如果出現了但書的情況我已經依照但書的規定清楚的跟你講你不能夠做筆記了但是他還是在偷偷做筆記"},{"start":20463.058,"end":20484.158,"text":"就像憲法法庭他們所遇到那個實際的案例一樣那這個時候要怎麼處理按照你們喔你們現在所提出來的條文這個時候現場的檢察官他可以做什麼事情也就是在半數的情況之下原則我們現在開放做筆記嘛"},{"start":20485.393,"end":20510.567,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、六百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、五百四十五條之一、"},{"start":20512.268,"end":20527.049,"text":"可以扣住那個筆記本嗎?還是那個檢察官只能跟他講說現在是但書的情況你不要再做了但是已經做好的筆記可以讓他吸出偵查庭之外嗎?"},{"start":20529.346,"end":20553.118,"text":"這個事情在現在的法律制度下面到底要怎麼處理?你們現在所提出來的條文到底要怎麼處理這一件事情?等一下可能一併請司法院跟法務部說明。司法院或法務部你們有沒有要補充?委員的意見有沒有要補充?"},{"start":20555.543,"end":20576.822,"text":"還是我們先請省委員發言完畢然後再麻煩行政那個司法機關跟行政機關補充好那個省委員好這個我看這我們因為這一次有這個行政院的假案跟這個司法院司法院的假案跟行政院的議案所以事實上是有兩個版本"},{"start":20578.035,"end":20597.321,"text":"我看司法院的意見是表示說在就這一條你們同意行政院的版本應該記名於筆錄這些相關的規定你們都同意剛才在討論電子設備的輔助因為今天早上大家的詢答過程中也蠻多委員在關心這個事情"},{"start":20599.322,"end":20623.957,"text":"我看目前的這個不管是法務部或司法院的態度大概就是清楚就是所謂電子輔助設備就筆記的電子輔助設備使用電子輔助設備都這個排除掉錄音錄影因為錄音錄影都不算是所謂筆記的一部分它是另外超越筆記的其他方式"},{"start":20625.747,"end":20647.624,"text":"但是除了錄音錄影以外的文字上面的這個電子輔助使用這個可能會這個就在現在這樣子的條文裡面他就會有爭議了會有爭議我目前是是用這個法務部是用這個偵查庭管理要點用一個很低階的偵查庭管理要點在管理在這個"},{"start":20648.985,"end":20657.815,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":20658.459,"end":20683.904,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20685.483,"end":20692.207,"text":"謝謝沈委員那是否請司法院先回應剛剛柯委員的問題謝謝委員的指教有關於剛剛委員所提到的制止之後限制之後繼續維筆記的行為這個部分當時我們在當時是沒有考慮到可能是要進一步的禁止他自己說他已經寫的東西能不能去查扣的問題"},{"start":20714.138,"end":20727.85,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20729.772,"end":20750.597,"text":"你再回去看一下那個憲法法庭的那個判決因為他基本上是從一個個案衍生出來的嘛才一路打到憲法法庭去嘛那在筆記權這個大家都承認沒什麼好說的現在我要講的具體的事情是因為在那個案子裡面他會發生一個狀況就是檢察官"},{"start":20751.943,"end":20775.886,"text":"我已經跟你講你不能寫了嘛那我們現在是開放可以寫但是還是有但書的規定嘛如果依照但書的規定已經禁止你做筆記了結果他還是偷偷的記嘛那偷偷的記這個時候檢察官發現了檢察官可以做什麼事情以及那個檢察官他做這個事情目前在你們的版本裡面法律授權的基礎是什麼這個是我兩個問題"},{"start":20779.601,"end":20779.921,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":20797.692,"end":20821.059,"text":"三）刑事訴訟法兩條規範的扣押規定,它是得為證物之物,假官也可以扣押。前提要符合訴訟法得扣押之物。但是這涉及到比較敏感的,這涉及到律師的筆記。這又牽扯到另外一個我們宣判制,就是說被告跟律師之間的秘密特權的問題。所以現在司法院我們也在研擬這一段如何的符合我們宣判制秘密特權不可以扣押的規範。"},{"start":20822.813,"end":20831.538,"text":"我本部的立場是不宜在這邊馬上就做這個扣押做馬上處理會連動到我們另外一個憲判制命令特檢扣押的相關的規定黃委員"},{"start":20836.55,"end":20858.297,"text":"你講的第二個事情這個我知道這個會牽涉到的說律師跟客戶就是 attorney-client privilege 的問題看就變成了是你把他扣押下來是一個手段那檢察官可不可以去窒息他的內容這個是完全另外一回事喔"},{"start":20859.448,"end":20884.39,"text":"你懂我的意義是什麼?扣押他是一個物理性強制的手段因為我依照辦書的規定我已經跟你講你不能這樣做囉結果你還是偷偷的在給我搞這個事情那這個時候當檢察官發現的時候他可以怎麼辦?當檢察官發現的時候要符合你剛剛所講的兩個憲法上面的原則第一個你物理上面可以扣但第二個內容上面"},{"start":20885.411,"end":20900.526,"text":"內容上面你不可以拿來當作你不可以拿來當作你在偵辦這個犯罪基本上面的事真資料好我理解你們對這個事情要怎麼細緻的處理還在思考但我現在的問題是"},{"start":20902.268,"end":20919.476,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":20920.836,"end":20944.302,"text":"開偵查庭的檢察官就是說我們作為主管機關的或者是作為立法機關要給檢察官非常重要的行為規範的指導原則也就是讓檢察官知道這個時候他可以做什麼事怎麼做才會合乎法律上面正當法律程序跟偵查當中重要例外不能做筆記的事項資訊不能夠外洩兩者之間的橫撇"},{"start":20948.348,"end":20967.546,"text":"那我現在在擔心的事情是說按照你們現在的說法按照你們現在的說法那在這種情況下你們到底就是行為規範的內容是什麼就這個時候檢察官該怎麼做那以及你所希望發揮這個行為規範效果的法律基礎在哪裡"},{"start":20969.349,"end":20997.311,"text":"各位報告我剛才已經跟委員報告這種狀況之下檢察官如果認為那個筆記本身是一個可以當為證物的話他其實訴訟法上他就可以扣押訴訟法上有另外一個比較不是這麼強烈的方式他也可以命所有人命交付或命提出這個訴訟法上他都可以這麼做啦前提要符合我們訴訟法上他得扣押之務的前提若這個案符合這個要件之下檢察官他就有法源基礎可以做若沒有的話他就沒有辦法去扣押這個筆記那個筆記"},{"start":21002.028,"end":21017.161,"text":"不是啊 那我的問題還是一樣嘛你剛剛又回到抽象解釋論嘛我們就具體來講齁在具體的個案當中檢察官依照第二項的但書說欸你現在齁繼續再記下去的話會妨礙國家機密齁"},{"start":21020.643,"end":21038.545,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21039.686,"end":21050.594,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21051.181,"end":21074.782,"text":"我只是先記在筆記本啊我可能只是想要帶回家看一看啊但我們就認為不宜嘛上面有國家機密嘛上面寫的東西你寫的那麼機遇性迷移如果有重要的共犯現在還在逃的話那怕律師帶出去把這個資訊不曉得搞什麼東西這個在實務上我相信次長你很清楚啦你們檢察官一天到晚在面對這樣子的狀態"},{"start":21076.644,"end":21103.567,"text":"那當發現這件事情的時候你現在抽象的講說那如果是刑事訴訟上面等為證據之物本來就可以扣押但問題是是什麼東西的證物是哪一個犯罪的證物你所擔心的犯罪要事先預防的犯罪根本就還沒有發生啊我只是把它記下來我也還沒有洩漏交付國家機密我也還沒有進去開始著手去進行有關與共犯或者是證人勾串的問題"},{"start":21104.668,"end":21116.222,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21120.938,"end":21137.984,"text":"法務部還有什麼要補充?當然委員剛才指正是沒有錯。前提是他是符合得為證據之物。他跟本案的那個本案他筆記跟那個原來偵辦中本案是不是得為那個本案的證據之物。那如果不符合的話現行法上當然就沒有扣押的法源依據。"},{"start":21139.951,"end":21168.545,"text":"所以你就要讓他上面寄滿了國家機密的筆記就要讓他帶走那你前面那個禁止你不就被空洞化了嗎那你就要百分之百確認喔我一禁止了以後他絕對記不下來啊如果萬一被他記一下來你告訴檢察官說我們只能目送他離開因為我們現在沒有任何強制的手段我只能目送他離開帶著那個寄滿國家機密的筆記本離開偵查庭這樣真的好嗎"},{"start":21171.459,"end":21181.068,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21181.704,"end":21210.216,"text":"如果說法沒有法源去扣押的話這個個案剛剛委員提到個案的確就是這樣子後來被監察院有提出一些糾正一些說法的確是有這個所以我現在就在擔心第一個我們在規範上面我們先來討論應然的層面應不應該怎麼做在我剛說我描述的狀況我相信不管是法務部還是司法院應該都同意這個時候我們絕對不能讓檢察官目送著看那個律師怠慢"},{"start":21210.876,"end":21216.761,"text":"代責本來應該禁止筆記的事項,不管是充滿機密還是可能會跟人家勾算的資訊離開這個偵查庭嗎?"},{"start":21219.192,"end":21243.097,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21244.218,"end":21249.848,"text":"但又沒有法律授權的依據。目前所提出來的修正草案應該要怎麼強化?"},{"start":21254.099,"end":21283.576,"text":"那還是請廳長先表示一下意見謝謝委員羅智強這部分我們事實上我們在也review過我們的刑事訴訟的確在這部分恐怕有授權不足的問題那也許再利用這個機會讓他有個明確的授權讓檢察官在偵查中好做事那可以直接針對假設涉及到秘密特權的部分進行作為扣押保留下來就好但是不要涉及到裡面的內容的存否"},{"start":21284.016,"end":21304.255,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五"},{"start":21311.823,"end":21330.523,"text":"如果扣押物的話那就回到那個扣押要發還的兩百四十二條那個部分的審議規劃。那是申請嗎?回家就申請明天還我?那當時就可以決定要不要還啦。如果在發現裡面的內容可能涉及到國家機密或是妨礙他的名譽或是其他有勾串的情形之下就是剛剛委員所講的但書的情形之下都就不發還啦。"},{"start":21335.141,"end":21338.203,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":21348.96,"end":21369.799,"text":"假設他申請發還的時候,那你就勢必要去檢視裡面的東西,看他是不是符合所謂的但書禁止的相關規定。如果是屬於但書禁止的規定的時候,當然就不要發還給他。不可能就像剛剛盧委員所講的,看目送他帶著相關的機密資料帶走,那個可能不是我們限制跟禁止的主要的目的。"},{"start":21373.396,"end":21384.741,"text":"三、四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一"},{"start":21385.734,"end":21407.926,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":21409.258,"end":21413.16,"text":"四十五條之一、提案人司法院、行政院提案、假案司法院辦"},{"start":21428.948,"end":21440.85,"text":"司法院、行政院提案、議案、行政院版以及委員沈柏楊等18人提案。請問就本條部分各位委員有沒有要補充說明?好,沈委員。"},{"start":21442.643,"end":21460.558,"text":"就跟我早上講過的一樣所以就這兩點來就教第一個就是在這一個證據能力的部分因為這個司法院這邊並沒有特別提到但是我記得是在法務部這邊他是希望說證據能力回歸一五八之四所以這邊想問一下因為司法院沒有特別講這一點所以想知道這邊的看法這是第一個"},{"start":21461.158,"end":21470.201,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":21492.867,"end":21512.884,"text":"回應剛剛委員的意見本部還是認為這部分不必要把它硬性規定為絕對證據排除的規範事實上我們用我們現在刑事訴訟的158之四去權衡現在大部分有關違反刑事訴訟法的規定它都用權衡法則去權衡它的證據能力用絕對排除的在訴訟法反而是少"},{"start":21514.024,"end":21539.14,"text":"這第一點回應這一個委員的說明第二部分就是說法官保留的部分我們還是覺得沒有必要就是說這部分如果說在偵查中發現這些事情都要等到法官去保留我們偵查整個會遲滯整個會延遲甚至政治搞不好都滅失了那整個就會陷入一個僵局就是說那個偵查中斷了會中斷你必須要法官去做決定嘛所以這部分我們還是覺得這部分就不需要法官保留以上是"},{"start":21540.36,"end":21565.122,"text":"我這邊先追問一個就是說因為好像是昨天是警政署也有提到就是說他們會有一些怕說有律師濫用的情形那可不可以這一點也稍微說明一下我覺得有個記錄比較好或者說還是請警政署說明可以啊那個警政署的代表要不要說明一下省委員的問題各位委員警政署刑事局報告就是有關於省委員提案"},{"start":21571.254,"end":21576.106,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":21578.647,"end":21601.174,"text":"條文修正草案案的第三項部分就是有關於採取法官保留的部分因為目前就實務上我們已經有實例就是說部分的律師他可能跟這些犯罪集團有所勾結可能協助做因為勾串證據的問題那如果採取法官保留的部分他可以採取技術性的干擾徵訊行動一個進行因為檢舉只能共用24小時"},{"start":21604.275,"end":21613.359,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第三百五"},{"start":21615.363,"end":21631.661,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九"},{"start":21637.415,"end":21659.316,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21661.391,"end":21668.501,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":21669.167,"end":21669.567,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人"},{"start":21692.385,"end":21713.673,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21720.121,"end":21749.415,"text":"我早上在打訊息的時候有回應就是說有關的電子輔助的部分如果電子輔助設備它具有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在法務部立場是絕對禁止這種電子設備但是電子設備它如果沒有我剛剛講錄音錄影傳送只是單純筆記的功能這部分我們在個案上我覺得不需要明定個案因為我們宣判只承認辯護人的筆記權那筆記權內容是什麼個案上有檢查關係認定就好了不用再落在這個文字上面"},{"start":21754.511,"end":21777.248,"text":"三委員主席我建議這一條我看司法院版跟行政院版文字是一模一樣那大概只有三委員的版本有一些不一樣那我是建議說是不是這一條如果大家沒有太大的爭議我們就按照行政院版或司法院版來通過按照行政院版來通過"},{"start":21783.135,"end":21805.371,"text":"委員的意思是說希望245條之一以行政院版通過嗎?那請問一下在場的黃國昌委員就這部分跟黃國昌委員有沒有其他?條文其實都有連動,前面都保留了,過了這個條文到底有什麼意義啊?"},{"start":21809.688,"end":21837.762,"text":"三）委員因為這些條文之間都有聯動是不是說因為前面大家我們之前就是三黨大家都有個共識我們有特別的意見我只是提這樣的建議看看大家怎麼樣如果大家覺得說還是要保留那就保留我們有特別的意見不好意思委員比較不好意思因為我覺得各個條文之間可能有一些聯動的關係那是不是說我們就依照之前大家講好的就我們就保留送協商好那周委員"},{"start":21838.939,"end":21841.76,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案的部分保留送協商。我們現在審查排序第19、第416條提案人台灣民眾黨黨團提案。請問各位委員就本條有無意見補充。"},{"start":21866.459,"end":21874.124,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21875.318,"end":21904.082,"text":"其實就是跟前面條文彼此相配合的問題因為它實際上面的狀況是說有一些東西你要把它全部擠在一個條文當中全部擠在那邊那邊有規定後面就不要動了還是說你在整個體力上前面既然有動後面配合著動這只是一個修法體力上面的問題所以前面既然保留了我覺得這一條就一併把它保留因為可能他們的想法是說我前面就有規定了"},{"start":21904.622,"end":21918.329,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":21919.744,"end":21923.625,"text":"四十五條之一後面以及我們所提的四百一十六條這個都保留我們意見。但我今天要拜託法務部"},{"start":21942.958,"end":21957.201,"text":"和刑事警察局。我要拜託,我要特別拜託你們回去做一個功課,因為我很怕到協商的時候再提出來,資料會不夠。要請你們做什麼功課,因為那一天"},{"start":21959.164,"end":21987.174,"text":"刑事警察局的同仁來我辦公室拜訪我主要是針對有關於通訊保障監察法第十一條之一到底是不是要採取檢察官保留還是司法警察就是我們一般的警察同仁就可以去調這件事情他們有來做說明你們說明的理由我基本上理解你們在辦案上面實際的需求但"},{"start":21988.234,"end":22008.256,"text":"在他們說明的過程當中突顯出來了我們現行通訊保障監察法第十一條之一立法體力上面的荒謬為什麼說現行的通保法十一條之一在立法體力上面的荒謬第一項"},{"start":22010.23,"end":22026.536,"text":"檢察官如果要不是通訊記錄喔通訊記錄當然要跟法院要調取票要使用者資訊要跟法院要調取票才可以拿到使用者資訊喔我再強調我講的是使用者資訊"},{"start":22027.856,"end":22036.721,"text":"刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":22053.854,"end":22078.072,"text":"他並不在什麼第二項要調取票的範圍那導致的是警察如果要使用者資訊不用法官保留直接去函跟電信公司要就有了那涉行通保法十一條之一他所呈現運作荒謬的狀況是什麼檢察官要使用者資訊然後要去跟法官要調取票"},{"start":22079.167,"end":22106.785,"text":"警察要通訊者資訊不用向法官申請調取票甚至也不用檢察官直接去電信公司要就好了怎麼會有這種立法體力的規範因為你們的解釋我知道啦你們的解釋就是說當初在訂11條之一的時候出現的立法上面的疏漏嘛掛一漏萬嘛"},{"start":22108.351,"end":22124.958,"text":"前面在檢察官的部分可能多了所謂的使用者資料後面在司法警察的部分就沒有但你們在實際目前運作這樣的法條解釋的結果我老實說我從法律的觀點來看"},{"start":22126.559,"end":22141.317,"text":"我真的不是很認同我為什麼說不是不是很認同連檢察官要都要跟法官申請了警察要可以不用跟法官申請直接去函電信公司怎麼解釋上會這樣子"},{"start":22144.04,"end":22167.9,"text":"這根本不合法律解釋的邏輯啊如果檢察官要都要法律保留了你舉重以民輕警察要當然更要法官保留啊我對這個條文的解釋是這個樣但你們昨天我也很感謝刑事警察局昨天來說明的時候很坦率的把你們現在實務上面到底是怎麼運作很清楚的表白"},{"start":22169.176,"end":22193.751,"text":"就是反正現在就是警察要直接跟電信業者調就好了然後辦案上面我們也有這樣子實際上面的需求所以大家都這樣幹但昨天就刑事警察局來說明的時候也提供另外一個重要的資訊就是有一些地方譬如說像台南地檢署他們在解釋這個法條的時候他們解釋的方法跟我"},{"start":22194.531,"end":22216.211,"text":"就是採取一致的立場,連檢察官都要調取票了。警察怎麼可能不跟法官,要透過檢察官向法官申請調取票,警察直接可以跟電信公司要,那不就掏空了第一項的規範。那哪,哪裡有檢察官會傻傻的去向法官申請調取票。那檢察官就卡一下就有金錢。說我這個齁,"},{"start":22219.127,"end":22221.088,"text":"三十條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":22243.081,"end":22243.522,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具"},{"start":22262.335,"end":22291.675,"text":"我這樣說其實不是在責怪刑事警察局我很感謝你們很坦率的把你們實際上面業務的需求辦案的需要跟運作的狀況跟大家做解釋但我希望你們可以準備好我們到黨團協商要針對這個條文做出決斷的時候現在的實務上到底有哪些是警察直接調就好有哪些地方是像你們所講的台南那邊的檢察官"},{"start":22292.715,"end":22320.473,"text":"還是要向法院申請調取票才可以做實際上面各個地方的地檢署運作的狀況是什麼第二個你們要的那個數量大概是多少可以讓我們知道因為這個東西我們一旦放了就放了所謂放了就放了就是說這次修法我們來去補足上一次修法的時候所出現明顯的錯誤或者是荒謬"},{"start":22321.374,"end":22348.132,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一"},{"start":22351.374,"end":22360.924,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":22363.873,"end":22381.266,"text":"謝謝黃委員因為這個我很有感非常有感以前我們也是要拜託警察然後警察調調通聯要錢就拜託檢方調然後檢方要這個資料就拜託警察調我都有很有同感這可能再麻煩法務部這邊能夠把這一塊我們再把它補起來因為現行這一塊確實有點荒謬"},{"start":22387.714,"end":22414.253,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":22419.458,"end":22438.073,"text":"條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字授權主席及議事人員整理。」好那我們本次討論事項都已經處理完畢本次會議就到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16001","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d38aadac80e2e3f804f0709a7fb2e748319186e52af124432915d6fdc21a48f875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-12T08:31:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:34:00+08:00","duration":14561,"影片長度":"04:02:41","委員發言時間":"08:31:19 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我們議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項 邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊．併請國家通訊傳播委員會．法務部、中華電信股份有限公司列席．並備質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1854.821,"end":1872.536,"text":"我們現在介紹在場委員首先介紹陳永康陳委員徐巧欣徐委員介紹與會列席的官員國家安全局蔡明彥蔡局長國防部資通電軍指揮部簡華慶簡指揮官"},{"start":1882.049,"end":1885.532,"text":"軍事情報局局長楊晉瑟楊局長電展室郭志國郭主任政治作戰局陳玉林陳局長憲兵指揮部副指揮官余大任軍事安全總隊總隊長汪世偉"},{"start":1908.528,"end":1913.35,"text":"海洋委員會海巡署副署長謝慶清通知組檢任分析師盧志賢內政部警政署副署長陳永利刑事警察局副局長陳炯旭"},{"start":1934.469,"end":1943.494,"text":"內政部移民署副署長林鴻恩國際級執法事務組副組長江琳法務部政務次長黃士傑檢察司主任檢察官白聖文法務部調查局副局長吳富梅"},{"start":1964.568,"end":1987.61,"text":"通訊監察處處長廖崇賢國家通訊傳播委員會副主任委員翁伯宗基礎設施處處長陳春木平台事業管理處副處長黃天陽"},{"start":1991.789,"end":2010.771,"text":"法律事務處副處長謝佩銀．中華電信股份有限公司業務管理處副總經理林文智本日會議邀請國家安全局．"},{"start":2012.225,"end":2018.796,"text":"率同相關情報機關報告國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊．並備質詢．現在請國安局蔡局長上台報告"},{"start":2036.531,"end":2063.786,"text":"好,謝謝主席主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生,大家好那感謝大院安排本局進行國家如何運用民間通訊設施收羅國安資訊專題報告本局僅以縱理國家情報工作之立場提出要點報告如此第一部分是有關於法定權責第一,本局縱理國家情報工作依照我們的國家情報工作法的規範統合情報機關就足以影響國家安全或利益的資訊進行收集、延期、處理以及運用"},{"start":2064.746,"end":2086.186,"text":"資訊面向主要包含有涉及到國家安全或利益、洩漏國家機密、外諜、敵諜、為外國勢力或境外敵對勢力、刺探或收集情資等。第二,依照《通訊保障及監察法》以下簡稱《通保法》第7條第1項規定,為避免國家安全遭受危害,以收集境外敵對勢力情報之必要者,重禮國家情報"},{"start":2087.327,"end":2110.449,"text":"工作機關首長．也就是國安局局長．也就是本人．得核發通訊監察書．有關執行境外敵對勢力之通訊監察．包含境外敵對勢力或其工作人員．在境內、跨境以及境外之通訊。．第三,通訊監察為國安增防重要的手段之一．現警調等司法檢查機關．得依通保法第7條的規定．申請對境外敵對勢力或其工作人員實施通訊監察。"},{"start":2111.59,"end":2131.506,"text":"第4依照通保法第7條第2項的規定受監察人在境內涉有戶籍者本局在核發通訊檢查書之前應該先呈報臺灣高等法院來進行同意但情況為籍者不在此限第5依照通保法第7條第3項的規定上訴但書的情形本局應該立即來通知將"},{"start":2132.987,"end":2153.459,"text":"通訊監察書合發的情形來呈報．台灣高等法院專責法官來補行同意．假如沒有在48小時之內獲得同意者．應該立即來停止通訊監察。本局依照通保法相關的規範．辦理、審查、監督以及集合．而且每年都要實施定期、不定期的通訊監察作業督法．並且邀請台灣高等法院專責法官來會同參與。"},{"start":2156.201,"end":2184.397,"text":"第二大部分是有關於作業的程序依照通保法的規定本局就現警調等司法警察機關涉及到境外敵對勢力偵防案件需求的申請辦理核發通訊監察書審核的過程非常嚴謹並且確尊相關法律的規範第一,審核程序嚴謹本局核發通訊監察書的過程歷經12道審核程序嚴格檢審案情的必要性以及證據的關聯性後續提交台灣高等法院來進行同意之後使得核發通訊監察書"},{"start":2186.218,"end":2212.964,"text":"確尊法律規範本局均依照通保法的規定經嚴格審查程序合法通訊檢查書並且定期不定期監督執行的情況以符合法徵的規範來強化我們國安增防工作的推展至於當前熱議的集會遊行數據收集因為不是通保法核准的事項所以本局不曾也從未有逾越法規的合法行為第三部分是有關於結語恆於當前中共對我附和事"},{"start":2213.704,"end":2232.941,"text":"國安威脅情勢加劇．本局將持續依法嚴謹辦理通訊監察業務．協助縣警調等司法警察機關．共同克服針防工作挑戰．確保國家安全穩固不墜以上報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指導我們其他機關的報告請參閱書面資料"},{"start":2236.585,"end":2253.05,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘﹖非本會委員6分鐘10點30分發言登記截止﹖如果有臨時提案﹖請在10點30分之前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理﹖現在請徐巧欣委員上台諮詢"},{"start":2266.832,"end":2276.855,"text":"謝謝主席我們請國安局然後這個NCC還有中華電信請國安局局長NCC還有中華電信謝謝好謝謝主席薛委員早早安北檢上個禮拜把王逸川民進黨政策會執行長列為被告那他用他自然被告身份傳喚到庭說明王逸川他說他有資料那這個事情"},{"start":2295.981,"end":2310.448,"text":"引起國家的軒然大破是因為竟然有辦法我們上個禮拜有討論過竟然有辦法透過所謂的資料分析去監控不同場合四個場合的不同的年齡層還可以區分出他的政黨傾向"},{"start":2311.828,"end":2334.784,"text":"這個是讓大家都感到很意外那今天我們經過包含是爆料人我們看下一張投影片我們就發現其實實際上這件事情是在民進黨5月27號的黨政主管會議上面那參與的高層包含了民進黨的代理秘書長兩位副秘書長還有王逸川執行長以及民進黨新媒體中心主任詹賀順"},{"start":2335.845,"end":2356.126,"text":"他用口頭報告的方式拿出了一份釋放電訊的報告來做相關的交叉比對這與王逸川他所說的道庭說明說有資料不謀而合而我在先前有詢問過是不是5月27號民進黨有開這樣的會議的時候他只說尊重司法調查並不願意回答"},{"start":2356.727,"end":2383.753,"text":"那我們看下一張喔那我們就發現說所謂的這個市方電訊呢等一下會讓大家有回答的時間市方電訊的董事長叫做吳彥宏在2016年開始的時候中華電信就被很多的新聞媒體報導整個我們的中華電信的子公司裡面有不少的酬庸背景最為人知的應該是賴靜林董事長可是呢我們今天談的是市方電訊的董事長吳彥宏"},{"start":2386.053,"end":2405.643,"text":"那他是賴清德總統的親信、媒體的報導以及新潮流洪啟昌的親信那他的資歷呢都是一直跟著這一些新潮流的一些相關政治人物來走的包含是什麼呢他是在這個海基會的時候洪啟昌也是海基會的這個董事長"},{"start":2406.483,"end":2426.117,"text":"我們從他的捐款政治獻金記錄裏面也可以看得出來他跟民進黨的關係他們這家公司也是中華電信的子公司很快速的時間裏面就翻倍成長了我們來看一下當時甚至連他們在做新的機房的時候蔡英文總統都有去兼採"},{"start":2426.877,"end":2441.529,"text":"那他呢好我們看到的事情是包含董事長是過去陰森科技的負責人吳彥宏以及他的副總經理裡面有曾經擔任過刑事警察局偵查隊大隊長的再來呢他們跟政府的合作"},{"start":2441.909,"end":2466.064,"text":"包含前瞻基礎建設的總金額呢這個不是釋放電訊的總金額是我們看到前瞻基礎建設的總金額一共累計38.27億好那我們就詢問了一下中華電信等一下給中華電信回答的時間那中華電信請問你們是不是曾經說過不會販售任何的資料給政治人物或政黨麻煩回答一下"},{"start":2468.578,"end":2494.069,"text":"報告委員是是對不對那請問你們的子公司或合作企業那能夠取得中華電信數據的也一樣不會販售相關的資料給包含是政治人物跟政黨嗎報告委員子公司本身就是一個獨立的法案公司但是它如果是你們的伺服器廠商接受了中華電信相關的訊息我們的個資傳到了這個子公司裡面也可以販售嗎"},{"start":2498.336,"end":2522.854,"text":"會接觸嗎?你們有掌握嗎?有,我們對相關人員對這些資料的那個取得跟相關人員能夠尤其是系統人員都有一定的管理有一定的管理嗎?所以如果今天我們中華電信的資料傳到了伺服器裡面那這些伺服器裡面的資料子公司可以提供或者販售給政治人物或政黨嗎?"},{"start":2525.185,"end":2526.426,"text":"中華電信的關係企業裡面有哪一些有電信機房或是雲端機房而且跟我們國內的電信業者合作相關的公司名稱"},{"start":2550.8,"end":2574.639,"text":"結果得到的答案只有一家你們跟釋方電訊主要的合作業務是寬頻電路以及IDC機房等基礎設施的租賃請問是不是有這件事?是是有這件事情嗎?來我們看一下你們子公司是怎麼樣跟民進黨來做合作的來下一張釋方電訊他跟蔡英文蔡總統從民國105年開始109年都有"},{"start":2579.483,"end":2595.612,"text":"我這邊字比較小但是你們的板子上應該可以看到市方電訊跟蔡英文總統在選舉期間他的支出是什麼他們的合作關係是什麼我念支出用途給大家聽喔數據費用數據分析分析數據費輿情分析費用輿情監測"},{"start":2600.615,"end":2615.227,"text":"所以我想問一下中華電信喔當我們合作的子公司我們的機房我們的伺服器裡面的內容是可以出售給特定的政治人物來做數據分析、輿情分析、輿情監測的嗎?"},{"start":2619.211,"end":2631.4,"text":"報告委員我想釋芳它本身是獨立的公司所以它相關的運作還是要依據法規要依據法規但是你們的資料如果到了釋芳"},{"start":2632.441,"end":2650.479,"text":"你們有合作關係吧?你們有沒有合作關係?有那你們的合作關係是什麼?如同委員的資料主要是在IDC這方面IDC是什麼?可不可以跟大家介紹一下?有些人可能不知道它就是資料中心資料中心?所以中華電信會把資料儲存在"},{"start":2651.576,"end":2673.311,"text":"市方電訊並不是說中華電信的資料 這個是客戶本身客戶本身 客戶的資料會被儲存在市方電訊的IDC主機基方所以市方電訊的IDC主機裡面會有民眾的資料 有還是沒有這可能要稍微分離一下"},{"start":2675.472,"end":2700.985,"text":"IDC客戶本身放在IDC機房裡面伺服器的資料當然就是會在他所在的機房委員所稱的民眾資料可能要看業務業的部分我就問你們嘛那是你們的子公司嘛中華電信有沒有資料是儲存在IDC機房裡面民眾的資料有沒有被儲存在市方電信的IDC機房裡面嗎沒有"},{"start":2701.385,"end":2723.343,"text":"沒有那你說IDC的合作是在哪裡合作的?IDC的業務可能有些企業他本身有我只問中華電信而已你們自己的回覆告訴我說你們跟他有合作我們回到上一頁你們說你們跟釋放電訊主要的業務是寬頻電路跟IDC機房基礎設施租用租賃但是我講到現在你說不清楚你們的合作細節是什麼?"},{"start":2725.224,"end":2751.653,"text":"電路的部分就是接取IDC機房的部分是客戶他要發出他主機這個客戶的部分的中華電信不就是客戶嗎中華電信不是市方IDC機房的客戶我們是跟市方合作在IDC租賃的部分按照客戶的需求跟他對這個接取電路的要求"},{"start":2752.253,"end":2780.944,"text":"那可能是使用我們中華電信本身的IDC機房也可能是由四方的IDC機房來提供服務提供什麼服務一樣是就是主機的這個主機的什麼所以你剛剛其實也談到了嘛就是說我們會好我們看下一張齁在這個電信幫的部分其實先前喔就已經有人指出來一件事情就是說呢這是媒體人張宇軒的臉書那我們把它提出來齁"},{"start":2781.704,"end":2800.712,"text":"他當時就講了2019年李承偉因為個人私德爭議被轉調2021年李承偉還是可以跟他的親信吳彥宏共同見面當時的賴副總統然後當時就提到了所謂的疫調系統跟這次王逸川比對的相關風暴是有關聯性的"},{"start":2801.532,"end":2825.227,"text":"後續還有一份所謂的陳宗彥辦理的簽名記錄：裏面寫著陳宗彥、李懷仁、郭水義、簡宏偉相關的高層我相信以他這樣子的陳述來說吳彥宏仍然是在現場的那我再問一個問題市方電訊他除了跟中華電信有機房合作而且是唯一的電信機房合作之外他還跟中國大陸跟香港都有合作"},{"start":2826.007,"end":2835.662,"text":"然後呢他上面也寫得很清楚他提供所謂中國大陸的優質服務我想請問一下國安局長像這樣子的情況會不會有所謂的資安跟國安的問題"},{"start":2836.943,"end":2865.573,"text":"對我想各個電信公司他有相關的一個資訊假如說有外流的話我想都要依照國家的法律來處理那重點就在於說他們違反法律的一些要件有沒有違反法律的要件嗎可是問題是今天中華電信講不清楚啊中華電信告訴我們說他們不會販售資料不會販售資料也不會有輿情分析給政治人物跟這個特定政黨可是他們的子公司有啊我們可以上市方電訊的網站上去看"},{"start":2865.953,"end":2888.929,"text":"他們沒有任何一個業務叫做數據費用、數據分析、輿情分析都沒有他們不是做這個的嘛他們是做IDC機房的嘛就像剛才我們的這個中華電信所說的那樣那為什麼中華電信的子公司會在選舉期間會有這樣子的一個相關的合作關聯性中華電信有沒有打算要對釋放電訊進行調查了解他們是否有"},{"start":2895.654,"end":2913.868,"text":"撈個資的問題免費撈個資然後提供給民進黨這樣的問題你們有沒有要去了解?那個四方電信是集團裡面的這個子公司齁那委員所詢的事項我們會去做了解好那最後不好意思請一下法務部喔那個再麻煩給我30秒問一下法務部"},{"start":2916.916,"end":2942.573,"text":"法務部這邊我想要問的是說我們能不能夠要申請要求要保全證據避免相關人士滅證那我這邊也會再向檢察官提出書面的要求是我想這個提出保全證據的請求原則上應該是要以被害人提出告訴等等我們每一個人都可能是被害人那如果告發的話那我想這個相關的假單位會本於他的職責判斷來做處理好 謝謝"},{"start":2948.004,"end":2951.827,"text":"請國安局局長請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":2979.482,"end":3001.244,"text":"好 謝謝主席 蔡委員早早 局長 不知道有沒有印象在兩三年前COVID-19的時候在2020年的時候那金門有幾個來自中國的男子那用無動力的橡皮艇然後說到金門說要投奔自由 有沒有聽過這樣的話有還記得嘛 對不對那也不只一件喔 我記得是兩三件嘛對 這 對"},{"start":3003.146,"end":3032.125,"text":"那這樣的情報當初有沒有掌握到說這些人的背景是什麼?他們的動機是什麼?他們想要達成什麼樣的目的?對,大概這兩年我想昨天海巡署也對外有說明了從去年到現在這一類中方的偷渡案件大概有十幾件那這些案件當中也都有針對當事人來進行一些偵訊的一個動作然後偵訊完之後再移送檢方來進行調查看有沒有違反我們的入出境管理法以及相關的國安法規"},{"start":3034.066,"end":3061.875,"text":"針對這個問題我不是要問有沒有違反什麼樣的法規我現在是以您是國安局局長的這個身份我想知道這些人的身份背景是什麼我想從北韓然後投誠到南韓的時候他們的這些情報部門還是一些統一部的部門等等全部都要去查核他們的動機不是只是單一性的來去採用他們是要投奔自由這樣的話語那我想請教在金門的時候他們的背景有做查核嗎"},{"start":3063.075,"end":3084.3,"text":"他們當然在接受證訊的過程當中都會有一套的說辭說明自己的身份還有到我們台灣來的主要的動機是什麼那就我們管局來講我們當然會比對他們的相關的一個說辭那歸類出大概有些比較要注意的樣態跟委員做個說明第二部分是他們大概都會提到投奔自由這樣的一個想法第一個共通性"},{"start":3085.06,"end":3098.418,"text":"那第二個也大概都會去勾勒他怎麼樣來透過這些水上的載具到我們的外離島或是到我們的本島因為去年到現在有兩件事到我們本島來一個是在通宵外海一個是前兩天淡水的碼頭"},{"start":3100.34,"end":3125.928,"text":"所以我們會去大概勾勒一下他們的相關的數位足跡因為這些很多都有攜帶他們的手機那我們會來了解一下他們的手機的內容還有相關的數位足跡跟他所公訴的證詞一不一樣那可能手機裡面也會有相關的照片那也可以再來核對一下跟他的陳述內容有沒有一些違反的事實整體來講會發現到他們的一些相關的資訊很多都跟他們的陳述的內容"},{"start":3126.688,"end":3147.229,"text":"所以我們就不禁要懷疑的這是不是背後有一個比較有組織的有系統的規劃來操作這些所謂的這種透過水上載具來到我們外離島或本島的這個周邊的水域或碼頭來靠近我們的國境所以這大概是我們從過去的樣態所規劃出來一些比較值得可疑的地方"},{"start":3148.07,"end":3171.173,"text":"謝謝局長因為我沒有直接問昨天的事情因為我認為大概只有24到48小時大概也沒有什麼樣最新的內容可能還要一段時間才可以梳理出來但是我要強調從金門的案件我們大概要去查那當他們決定做這些事情的時候包含他們的說法全面都一致喔三年前跟三年後這些人的講法都是一致的那剛才你剛剛說提到他的數位足跡"},{"start":3171.713,"end":3198.981,"text":"通常如果是你說特務也好情報人員要特別要做這件事情的時候誰會把手機放在身上所以他們一定是攜帶他們想要被監測的數位足跡的這些東西攜帶在身上讓我們去反查來去做查核嘛但是台灣是民主自由的社會在法治的社會上面我們有什麼證據就只能辦到哪裡我們不能說你就是間諜所以說這是利用我們的民主的漏洞利用我們制度的漏洞來要去探路那我覺得這些都是我們必須要先前防範的特別是"},{"start":3199.761,"end":3219.841,"text":"如果這些人有軍方的背景或者是安全的背景,不知道有沒有過去有過這樣的案例?這個是比較特別,最近淡水這個案例是大概歷來第一次他自己承認他具有軍方的背景那也引起我們的關注,所以也正在查和了解一下他在對岸的真實的身份以及過去的活動的動態"},{"start":3221.092,"end":3236.633,"text":"像這樣子的樣態已經不是第一次了從離島直接進入到本島那從到台灣到離我們的首都數位區已經是非常接近的地方那有沒有什麼相關的情資研判怎麼樣要提供給其他的部會嗎"},{"start":3237.794,"end":3254.21,"text":"對,因為案子本身已經由檢方立案在偵辦了那我們都尊重檢方調查的過程跟結果那假如說檢方有需要相關一些國安的單位的評估的意見的話我們很樂意來提供給檢方我是希望可以主動提供你們評估的案件因為"},{"start":3255.091,"end":3268.547,"text":"政府的部門是要跨部會整合的前幾天上禮拜五我們去參加海委會的這個海事相關的這個研討會的時候我們也接到一些媒體的採訪說我們是國防外交委員會這是內政的為什麼我們要一起去聽"},{"start":3270.129,"end":3294.98,"text":"其實很簡單嘛這今天的這個案例齁前幾天的案例在淡水的案例就很清楚的告訴我們說這個東西不是只有一個部會如果一個部會守不住的話那其他部會至少還去協調來協助嘛那當每一個部會不要本位主義的時候不管是在12海裡還是在6海裡的時候就能夠與以來去截獲不會等到到淡水河口才會有動作所以"},{"start":3295.6,"end":3322.395,"text":"我還是要呼籲各個部門不要說這個是屬於A單位這是屬於B單位內政部、國防部那一有問題趕快就是要有一個彙整的機制管道才可以快速反應是,跟委員報告說明一下第一個部分當然是在法律上的處理那因為檢方已經在偵辦這部分我們尊重那第二部分是在行政系統的一個盤點相關的問題以及有沒有哪些缺失未來要精進的"},{"start":3322.995,"end":3349.997,"text":"所以國安會有召開跨部會會議來進行協調那也來了解跟釐清整個過程當中到底有哪些邊防國境安全的漏洞那也要求各單位要來積極的策辦跟精進好謝謝因為我還是在強調這是最基礎最簡單最低科技但最有效的在低科技最簡單最基礎的東西我們沒有做好的話不用講高科技不用講什麼AI防範你最簡單的事情先把它處理完那才有辦法去做應對那當然啦"},{"start":3352.119,"end":3380.967,"text":"我們今天看到就是相關的包含海委會有說這個蔡委首是說是有可能是懷疑是因為歸港漁船所以就是大意了沒有去做處置那除了漁船之外我們現在很擔心包含空中的這樣子的能量到時候如果是以像是客機的方式等等就層出不窮我覺得相關的資訊是不是可以請這個國安單位來彙整一個給我們各個不同的部門有一個guideline一個指引我必須強調就是說"},{"start":3382.447,"end":3405.979,"text":"我們不能夠依賴個人而是要依賴制度那當然如果一個個人他們在重要的時刻做出很英勇的決定那當然是很好的但是如果只是依照這樣子的話那隨時都是要碰運氣如果沒有制度上面的查核比方說像這一次就有應該請國安局也把過去其他國家的一些做法來提供給這個相關的部門"},{"start":3406.459,"end":3406.699,"text":"最後局長我來想講一下"},{"start":3432.321,"end":3452.614,"text":"這個機密的這個落實的分級我必須要強調說最近國防部長顧部長他不斷的提到說機密層級那涉及機密層級的狀況去做的背景查核是依照他的職務跟他接觸的敏感的資料不是以他的職位來去做確定那我是希望說這不是只能只於國防部"},{"start":3453.334,"end":3467.904,"text":"那我是希望說未來包含其他的部門包括國安局或者其他的情報機構之外外交部甚至是經貿相關的重要的經貿談判的辦事處都必須要有相關的機制這部分是不是可以請您研擬一下二號"},{"start":3468.484,"end":3489.04,"text":"因為這部分依照國家機保法的一個規定它本來就有絕對機密及機密跟機密的核定至於密等的話就由行政院的相關文書處理的作業規範來進行市長我為什麼講這件事情是因為過去在國安會服務的時候我看到什麼東西都是密或者是機密或者是越來越這跟美國的狀況其實是很類似的他們把密等"},{"start":3491.68,"end":3517.966,"text":"這也是在他們內部有很多的討論的所以我們是希望說在我們的資源我們不像美國一樣是超級大國我們沒有無限的資源去使用我們必須要針對需要保密的東西保密針對不需要保密的東西你也不必來去增加資料的這個不可親近性那對過來我們的問證也好或者是做研究做分析來講都是一個阻礙所以要確實的確保密等的這種核對是有它的幫助的那另外一個部分就是說"},{"start":3519.026,"end":3533.419,"text":"關於我們的機密程度還有我們的可 包含國會議員嘛國會議員就是人民所選出來的那當然就是另外一回事但是再包含幕僚長我們的國會助理包含各個你們接觸的這些單位理論上是要有相關的安全查核的等級"},{"start":3533.939,"end":3556.267,"text":"那當然不是我們是不是在鼓吹說每一個人都要得到這樣的安全合格其實在跟國會議員的這些幕僚在討論的時候很多他們的幕僚早是不希望有這樣的安全合格對他們來講是心理壓力啊他們必須要接觸到這些密等他們必須要確保說他們不會因此而洩密對他們來講也是很大的壓力不是每一個人都想要但是這是必須要去操作必須要去務實的去做這個做法的因為"},{"start":3557.047,"end":3580.572,"text":"我們看到說你說泄密也好我實在很不希望說把每一個人都當成是泄密的對象但是如果你有一個完成的這個安全的合格包含國防的承包商等等都應該有這樣的做法不然就會讓明明不應該要負泄密責任的人負責真正應該要負泄密責任的人你卻追究不到因為你的密等你的揭密的這個層級沒有去做務實的規劃"},{"start":3582.052,"end":3604.446,"text":"這個希望局長能夠參考各國的案例做一個完整的規劃不要關門自己造車重新發明如此對這非常重要謝謝委員提醒這個真的很重要因為我還是在強調因為密等每次密到最後全部都是機密那全部都是機密的時候無所不密那就是每一個都要保護每一個保護就是沒有再把資源放在對的上面對不對對了解委員的觀點也同意謝謝"},{"start":3609.829,"end":3614.011,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請陳永康委員上台諮詢主席有請國安局局長請蔡局長"},{"start":3633.442,"end":3633.922,"text":"中華電信副總經理"},{"start":3661.016,"end":3666.803,"text":"請副主委還有中華電信林副總想請教各位"},{"start":3671.328,"end":3691.697,"text":"我們一直在強調提升國家通訊網路的韌性能力目前是由中華電信跟歐洲的通訊衛星子公司OneWeb簽署了我們很樂見在2024年那麼低軌衛星訊號可以覆蓋全台那我們從公開的情資顯示它是有"},{"start":3692.517,"end":3692.577,"text":"陳平時級通訊"},{"start":3720.592,"end":3720.612,"text":"委員長"},{"start":3742.02,"end":3757.497,"text":"那這個部分的話確實是一個重點就是在某一種disaster的狀況下面它的系統容量會不會不足或者它的coverage會不足那這個部分的話因為中華電信是one wave的台灣的代理那請中華電信這邊來說明好謝謝中華電信"},{"start":3760.708,"end":3783.806,"text":"報告委員有關那個跟web那個簽署的這一個部分我想我們對服務的要求跟相關合約裡面對這些都會有相關的要求跟規範那回到整體通訊的那個安排的部分我們在整體的這個陸海空發各方面的solution也都自己在尋求那能夠提高我們整個的網路韌性,以上報告"},{"start":3784.448,"end":3784.608,"text":"主席"},{"start":3799.688,"end":3821.673,"text":"謝謝委員的指導,我們再回去檢視這個部分是什麼樣的一個要求,謝謝我們這次速發部做獨島,中華電信做協作應變或暫時應用新興科技,強化通訊網路這個韌性的計畫我們是希望確保指揮體系在戰爭或是大規模災害的時候能夠支援政府"},{"start":3822.193,"end":3823.414,"text":"中共對台灣可能會做出什麼手法?"},{"start":3846.089,"end":3861.522,"text":"因為從400公里甚至200公里到2000公里大概隨時都有30到50枚帝國衛星通過因為我們的上空的空間有限那麼OneWeb衛星通過的安全餘力希望能夠掌握我把後面的限制因素向大家報告"},{"start":3863.143,"end":3887.079,"text":"經過評估,發射干擾頻率是可以干擾OneWeb的終端設施正常運作。我們面對的挑戰是暫時可能有受阻的現實。未來中共的低軌衛星會有變軌的能力,它的通知戰術靈活多變,我們在本島周遭可能會有變成透明化,你會面對。"},{"start":3888.929,"end":3915.301,"text":"另外就是6G的時代手機直通低軌衛星中共運用覆蓋福建沿海地區向國際通訊組織申請的涵蓋範圍可能會排擠到我們在台灣地區OneWeb的軌道這個東西將來就沒有辦法有效的運用低軌衛星這個我是提醒NCC跟中華電信特別要注意這個"},{"start":3916.584,"end":3922.07,"text":"指揮官,我特別談到未來無人的系統,無人機無人艇,這是一個趨勢,但是有效的運用還是在通訊"},{"start":3934.463,"end":3953.117,"text":"所以涵蓋的範圍、電池頻譜這個保密措施我想在國軍來講自通電軍要承擔很大的責任也要相助、協助各個軍種在這個領域繼續強化尤其是整合感測器、平台跟決策流程那我們訊息的優勢利用科技"},{"start":3954.157,"end":3972.696,"text":"經準快速收集、篩選、分析跟傳播另外,修復的能力復原的能量也是要儘快所以國防部提出寬域的軍用頻道需求可能透過自通電軍跟NCC跟中華電信尤其是未來的UAV、無人機它的通訊頻道必須先確保"},{"start":3974.838,"end":4003.297,"text":"而不是這些載台先交給你國軍的你另外再申請頻道那那個時候在暫時有效運用上就比較難以發揮它的效益了那我最後用這張圖來向大家說明這個是中共的北斗衛星那實際上它是軍用、民用甚至中國大陸所有的公務船舶海上交通甚至漁船都有北斗那這個另外呢"},{"start":4004.639,"end":4017.834,"text":"海事衛星的通訊那是另外一個品勢現在比較困擾的是低軌衛星各位看看這張圖低軌衛星我們把最近低軌衛星顯示整個涵蓋全球了"},{"start":4020.489,"end":4039.016,"text":"中國大陸是高度重視太空產業它把視為中國的綜合國力之一那麼一家上海的這個叫藍劍鴻這個鴻琴科技公司最近向國際電信聯盟ITU提出了一個重磅的計劃在未來要發射1萬顆"},{"start":4041.137,"end":4069.985,"text":"這個紅湖三號它是一個巨型的星座衛星系統那將來它的目的是超越這個STARLINK那事實上在2021年大陸已經批准了一個叫做國網12992顆衛星另外G60星鏈12000個衛星這都在持續施放那這些東西為什麼在我們這個有限的低軌衛星的空間會產生排擠所以這個是要我們要特別注意的"},{"start":4070.728,"end":4096.208,"text":"那有效的頻寬運用跟安全措施以及跟國軍有效掌握暫時他的無人機能不能有效運用甚至可以用低軌衛星不只是低軌向中軌做 relay或是低軌之間用雷射 relay這個都是未來我們面對的挑戰那這個部分我們特別請資通電軍還有國安局在保密的部分提供最大的協助請局長做一點回應"},{"start":4097.729,"end":4125.362,"text":"謝謝蔡委員的關切那就怎麼樣來強化我們國家的通訊的韌性跟安全呢事實上是有跨部會的機制在進行規劃或協調那我們的中低軌衛星的發展也不是只有英國這一家OneWeb還有其他的國際廠商都有在做相關的一個合作計畫的評估那對於中共確實正如委員所提到的這幾年它不斷的跟ITU申請它的低軌衛星計畫我前一陣子才算過大概申請了"},{"start":4127.082,"end":4154.601,"text":"發射大概有4萬顆左右低軌衛星但它的一個目前來講它的能量還在起步的階段那它當然希望能夠像美國的那個STARLINK可以達到4、5千顆以上那它現在有4、5萬顆的規劃有很大的目的是在於展現它的覺醒那二來也是有點在佔用相關的低軌衛星的可能的一個位置讓各國假如還要再發射低軌衛星的話又跟中共來進行磋商所以它是有點策略上的運用的"},{"start":4157.143,"end":4181.864,"text":"根據了解就是一顆低軌衛星大概約有2000個終端用戶那如果他能夠把這個地區整個把它飽和化那我們可以使用的這個空間就是軌道通過的時間單位同時有幾顆衛星會受到排擠那這個我們努力的空間不管服務8號服務9號那另外最後還提醒注意中華電信特別一個重要的就是海嵐"},{"start":4182.805,"end":4182.825,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":4210.24,"end":4213.701,"text":"謝謝 接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請中華電信請中華電信 林副總"},{"start":4236.069,"end":4245.654,"text":"副總長我們今天的題目當然是叫做我們的國家如何來運用民間的設備來收集相關的國安資訊不過剛剛前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑說這個有個叫釋方電信的現在是不是意圖不軌的來搜集國家的情報或者是搜集人民的個資我先請問一下釋方電信跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係除了是子公司之外業務上面有往來嗎"},{"start":4266.592,"end":4294.459,"text":"開麥克風不要緊張業務上面是什麼樣的關聯跟委員報告業務上就是我們在IDC租賃上那個在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的這個IDC租賃業務還有那個電路的出租業務好所以說在業務上是合作關係還是市方跟中華電信來承租或是中華電信來跟市方承租"},{"start":4300.843,"end":4312.993,"text":"中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。"},{"start":4313.553,"end":4327.473,"text":"言下之意就是一種策略聯盟好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有"},{"start":4330.037,"end":4358.665,"text":"如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎"},{"start":4359.565,"end":4365.629,"text":"主席有請國安局警察局長我想其實今天對於民眾來說最重要的當然還是安全的維護的部分其實我想要救教局長的部分就是其實是不是利用這個端午節假期中共所發動的灰色清老"},{"start":4386.801,"end":4400.445,"text":"其實在持續當中本席想要把這個快艇的事件往前推其實在6月8號的時候中國的無人機其實到金門去發送傳單甚至於在抖音上面有直播主直接就說他們要直接來侵擾金門"},{"start":4404.786,"end":4425.431,"text":"這從6月8號到6月9號兩個事件國安局怎麼看?國安局認為這事件當中有關聯性嗎?又或者是其實這個就是中國的灰色衝突的一個持續的上升其實是有步驟有計劃性的而國安局這裡有掌握一定的情資嗎?好這大概分兩個部分一個是整體中共對台灣的灰色地道"},{"start":4425.951,"end":4427.312,"text":"臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作：再加上偶爾包括這一次的"},{"start":4455.626,"end":4455.926,"text":"中華電信股份"},{"start":4470.843,"end":4489.975,"text":"整體的態勢判斷來講我們認為這確實不能排除是中共有系統有計劃的灰色地帶洗腦的活動這是第一部分那第二部分是針對個案的部分那針對個案的部分管局這邊我們會統合我們各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來收集相關不同的個案那以淡水這個個案來講"},{"start":4490.575,"end":4495.619,"text":"從局長的回答就知道說這一切其實都在掌握之中但重點就在於在國安局的掌握之中訊息有沒有橫向的連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署或等等主席不好意思我要請海巡署"},{"start":4520.56,"end":4521.001,"text":"前台宣"},{"start":4534.272,"end":4558.177,"text":"8年來現在已經從1.6萬變成現在到1.8萬言下之意就是中國用非法船隻越界的方式的灰色衝突是越來越高喔那麼對於海巡來講跟國安局之間你們在國安相關的單位或者是巡護海防的部分感受到的是非法中國的非法船隻不斷的就是親門套戶的狀況底下那麼"},{"start":4561.638,"end":4572.641,"text":"對於這一次直接有所謂的解放軍背景的人直接滑著小艇進入淡水河口這樣的過程當中難道說國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎?報告委員有關這部分的話海巡署20小時全天候在待命在監偵海面目標那這部分我們跟國安局等等相關情報單位都平時都保持密切的聯繫"},{"start":4588.922,"end":4608.938,"text":"那麼怎麼會發現這個從發現到這個確定逮捕而且是發生了衝突之後中間的這個空白的50分鐘這到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀態不能說是因為這個我們的第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來所以不熟悉我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口"},{"start":4609.338,"end":4626.862,"text":"而是面對中國不斷的提升所謂灰色地帶的非法傳資直接越界進入家門這樣的狀況難道說我們沒有一個好的判斷的方式嗎?一定得要發生衝突或者是臨近的漁船或是我們本國的漁船來通報之後才會了解狀況嗎?"},{"start":4630.985,"end":4644.243,"text":"該委員報告,這個案子我們事後來檢討評估在海軍的徵收系統完全是正常,絕對沒有漏接我們在陸海裡就發現那因為當時海面上武器燒船隻我們第一線的雷達操作員"},{"start":4646.165,"end":4664.318,"text":"誤判為是進港的正常傳播他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控在11點10分靠馬頭之後就馬上逮捕當然這個案子具有高風險所以我們不僅加強教育訓練我們也引進各式各樣的徵收設備來用科技撫琴"},{"start":4664.778,"end":4685.361,"text":"好,所以局長,我想這個部分我想要了解的是,國安局回答得非常好,那麼對於整體的狀況也有掌握,但是橫向的連結跟聯繫的時候,當你們看到這樣的個案,未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢?應該的,應該的,因為這部分我剛剛也跟陳冠廷委員有說明過,"},{"start":4686.122,"end":4711.09,"text":"國安會也有召開跨部會議在檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪一些可以測近的作為就這個個案來講像剛剛海巡署所說明的因為他的船身不大大概只有7公尺的小船那這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在6海里外就發現這個相關的漲收程度已經算是相當相當不錯當然船隻的噸位更大可以在更遠的水域就預先來警覺到他"},{"start":4711.89,"end":4714.191,"text":"本席希望的是橫向的聯繫當中如果以國安局為首的話要把它整體的組織起來因為就像我提到它其實不是一個6月9號的個案"},{"start":4735.862,"end":4755.401,"text":"請證詞"},{"start":4756.311,"end":4775.716,"text":"好,兩位長位先請回本席稍微整理了一下這近10年來中國偷渡的人數那麼當然呢現在都是比較是個位數字但是是不是因為我們的法規太輕了以入出境管理局的第74條可以懲處5年以下有期徒刑那一顆罰金50萬但是如果回到判例來看我就舉三個判例從2023年的這個中國盛信男子"},{"start":4786.038,"end":4813.573,"text":"有有到小金門一顆罰金可以一顆罰金但判4個月12萬台幣大概呢人民幣大概就2萬多不到3萬如果到2021年那麼這個大陸中國的福建省航行11小時到台灣海峽的話是判刑2個月一顆罰金才6萬那到2019年的富商之子偷渡來台灣根本就是不起訴直接遣返"},{"start":4814.013,"end":4840.799,"text":"本席指示要問就法務部來看這個會不會是讓中國如果要灰色侵擾這個代價很低阿是跟委員報告事實上我有稍微了解一下我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候首先剛剛委員所關於追尋的是不是有橫向聯繫那地檢署跟調查局事實上跟國安都有相關的聯繫那剛剛在討論那個案子的我們的這個事檢國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中"},{"start":4842.879,"end":4864.14,"text":"那麼我想當然會試相關案件的情節有不一樣的處置那麼事實上歷年來這個偷渡案件其實比委員所這個書面上的數字還多相關的案件數但是呢並非全部都用不起訴事實上包含檢疫判決處刑的起訴案件跟用一般通常程序來起訴案件加總"},{"start":4864.761,"end":4867.263,"text":"好,除了修改法規之外其實本席把這樣的法條找出來的原因是說他其實是可以一顆罰金然後50萬以下但是你看所判出來的"},{"start":4887.156,"end":4905.573,"text":"因為刑期很低所以說金額也就相對偏低本席認為是不是要修法可以再考慮但是我認為在判刑上面如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖要侵擾台灣的安危的話其實在判刑上面應該要予以來加重這個是本席認為的"},{"start":4906.274,"end":4907.694,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"},{"start":4941.846,"end":4963.388,"text":"有請海巡署 謝副署長請海巡署 謝副署長現在敏感的地方就是因為淡水的一個這個衝到我們這個淡水這個地方的一些那個前那個什麼停建那我想請教一下"},{"start":4964.98,"end":4991.826,"text":"今天早上今天早上我們在發現我們新竹建在夏威夷發現在那個地方停泊那它進行什麼樣的一個任務第二個台灣和美國現在的一個海型的議題上進行什麼樣的一個合作什麼樣的一個合作你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":4992.93,"end":5016.921,"text":"報告委員,新竹艦正在執行今年度的第一航側的太平洋遠洋公海巡護任務這是例行的任務現在我們4000噸的新竹艦,它續航能力更遠而且它有裝備醫療專業人員跟設備所以我們指定調派它來執行中西太平洋遠洋巡護任務"},{"start":5018.362,"end":5042.119,"text":"好,那海巡有任務的任何的一個觀摩或是參加什麼樣的一個角色?他扮演的是什麼樣的一個角色?有關於相關的細節的話,除了公海巡務的話我們這邊可以報告以外那有關相關的細節的話就不方便在對外公開報告我們是會後跟委員報告好,那你細節的部分再跟我報告"},{"start":5043.442,"end":5053.564,"text":"那另外是有關於NCC如何確認的三大電信的這個部分我要請教"},{"start":5055.031,"end":5077.65,"text":"那最近民進黨這個政治會的執行長王一川在5月27號的時候在三立政論節目上表示其使用的手機、信號、定位分析、清雕行動及近期成抗的活動引發政府或執政黨的監控人民的一個餘力"},{"start":5080.732,"end":5087.36,"text":"NCC在5月30號發函國內三大電信啟動調查結果NCC在5月31號調查以書面的報告調查結果那認為就是這個調查結果的結論"},{"start":5101.34,"end":5127.087,"text":"是經確認三大電信部層提供清了行動群眾任何這個資訊給其他單位業者也並無任何私人的一個企業政府機關或特定的黨籍人士接洽或請求相關的人流資訊那你來回答一下這個餘力非常的大"},{"start":5129.321,"end":5155.83,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們昨天還在找了那個三大電信公司來除了要求他們的個資跟資安都要符合那個ISO的規定之外另外我們也要求電信業者要盡快的導入那個氣勢別化的認證的標準所以說我們持續在做要優先請電信業者一定要去導入氣勢別化"},{"start":5157.231,"end":5175.429,"text":"當初你們在書面報告的時候在5月30號只有區區一天的時間你就有一個結論的一個書面報告那這個是一個非常荒唐而且也是一個唐突的一個決定說我們沒有這個沒有任何的一個問題所在"},{"start":5177.07,"end":5191.777,"text":"這樣的你們的回答是欺騙民眾還是欺騙國人報委員其實我們是真的有請三大電信業者到會裡面來做行政調查我們不只問了說他有沒有我現在問題癥結點在哪裡就是5月30號"},{"start":5196.559,"end":5212.947,"text":"那就一天的時間裡面你5月31號就是一個書面的這個做出一個結論這樣會不會覺得你們這個報告根本就是在富航王一川"},{"start":5214.167,"end":5241.998,"text":"報委員 這個部分我們持續在調查我們只是把5月30號當天我們也請三大電信業者到會來陳述他們陳述的意見表達在我們6月3號在大宴交通委員會的報告上面那我們會持續在精進也要求電信事業要去做好個資、資安還有那個去識別化的整個標準的作業流程"},{"start":5242.718,"end":5254.806,"text":"因為你們已經受到國人的質疑NCC到底調查結果有沒有外露這一些各自的問題所以你們現在才陸陸續續在調查那為什麼你們當時5月30號的時候你們就應該要審慎調查之後再來提出書面的結論報告不是嗎"},{"start":5269.055,"end":5290.817,"text":"委員的指導意見我們會持續的來精進那我們會持續要求電信事業來加強各自治安還有氣勢變化的認證本席這邊特別提醒NCC應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定甚至違反的情勢存在這樣的調查除了書面調查外應該包含"},{"start":5292.138,"end":5313.984,"text":"資料、調閱和更多複雜的調查方式本席無法相信除了NCC果真的有認證調查可以短短一天內就得到答案NCC如果只是發函或者是業者說明然後把業者的回覆當初調查結果根本就是應付了事"},{"start":5314.564,"end":5341.283,"text":"報言我們在那個有一個結議喔在立法院有一個結議交通委員會有一個結議在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚而我們會邀請寫者專家或第三方的那個公正的驗證單位去了解去調查了解說我希望你們這一些調查結果結論無論如何都給每一位我們這個本委會的"},{"start":5343.666,"end":5349.64,"text":"這個立法委員好不好好是好那有請我們呃國安局長"},{"start":5357.403,"end":5384.068,"text":"好 謝謝主席 委員好好 局長好那有關於我們的第五縱隊的狀況我想請教一下這個所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞以敵方裡應外合不擇手段意圖顛覆破壞國家團結的團體那你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊現在目前有多少人"},{"start":5384.708,"end":5385.669,"text":"中華電信股份有限公司列席"},{"start":5415.088,"end":5416.589,"text":"臺灣內部的共鐵活動似乎越來越猖獗"},{"start":5431.736,"end":5446.831,"text":"在台第5縱隊的是越來越多在台絕對不只是5000人以上那暫時高風險族群高達10萬人更不一定是中國人台灣人也可以被中共威脅或其"},{"start":5447.752,"end":5466.547,"text":"做其他事情政府應該要進行管控這些高風險的所謂的族群裡面就包含立委、學者、公廟、幫派、人士請問一下高風險的族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎?"},{"start":5467.868,"end":5485.208,"text":"對,我剛剛跟委員說明的是第五縱隊它不是一個法律的概念那可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語但是就國安單位來講我們在處理共諜案必須要依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理這是第一點澄清跟說明那有沒有存在在十年前有沒有存在這個第五縱隊對"},{"start":5486.089,"end":5508.905,"text":"那第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動我們都非常的感謝因為這可以喚醒國人相關的一個國安的一個知覺那我們有提到說10年前的有所謂的媒體提到第五縱隊的相關的數字我還原了一下當時的狀況當時的討論比較像是對岸的人士到台灣來"},{"start":5509.645,"end":5509.665,"text":"好"},{"start":5534.472,"end":5555.95,"text":"所以如果像這樣的一個狀況沒有具體的事證的情況之下影射他的賣台或是中共的同路人弄得人心惶惶社會不安所以我想破壞團結、破壞國家團結是不應該要把第五重點擴大為解釋以上"},{"start":5556.63,"end":5556.95,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":5583.106,"end":5590.514,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委還有中華電信林副總好,謝謝主席,我很好好,謝謝局長,我想先請教一下"},{"start":5603.516,"end":5631.453,"text":"中華電信林副總剛剛有委員特別有詢問到就是釋芳他是中華電信的子公司那他收集的他的那個機房裡面存在的是什麼樣的資料你說他跟中華電信不一樣然後也也不會直接交付給他中華電信不會交付給他可是釋芳科技他釋芳電訊他可以收集到什麼樣的資料"},{"start":5632.694,"end":5659.597,"text":"以他自己的子公司的這個機房裡面釋放公司的那個業務我大概也因為他是獨立公司不過如果就IDC他是中華電信的子公司但是他是獨立營運的公司那就IDC業務而言IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面這些有沒有可能有其他的"},{"start":5660.357,"end":5678.965,"text":"基本上不會,因為這些資料應該都是屬於都是企業的嗎?他們只負責企業的嗎?會使用ITC基網服務的這個基本上都會是那個企業其他的呢?其他的可能性還有什麼?因為是你們的子公司啊,照理說你們非常清楚,除了企業以外還有什麼?"},{"start":5680.117,"end":5680.398,"text":"另外跟委員報告"},{"start":5695.257,"end":5711.502,"text":"企業在IDC裡面的營運它因為不管它是主機代管還是相關跟它公司營運的需要這些的資料基本上是還是屬於這一個企業所有並不屬於我們這個比如IDC居然出現可是在它的機房裡面會有嗎因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嘛因為包括它是一些辦理活動的公司啊或者相關的企業他們有些相關的資料也會在裡面"},{"start":5723.286,"end":5737.502,"text":"因為包括我們所有的以前的企業比如說大家去健身房其實你裡面有很多的資料不管他的年齡、性別、住址、郵件的地址等等網址等等,其實他都會有是這樣子嘛,對不對"},{"start":5739.264,"end":5758.115,"text":"那我現在要特別詢問的是因為它既然是中華電信的子公司剛剛NCC說我們都會對於三大電信業者尤其在這個出事以後其實都有把他們找來那我想請問一下對於子公司或孫公司呢NCC回答一下好不好"},{"start":5760.441,"end":5779.502,"text":"除了三大電信業者那對於像剛剛講的因為那個因為剛才那個徐小青委員徐委員有問到這個事情他四方也是電信事業我們也會來就具體的事證我們也會來瞭解目前有嗎目前我們會回去以後馬上會目前還沒有是嗎對我們先優先先對三大電信事業"},{"start":5780.163,"end":5800.43,"text":"那今天有具體的一些資料之後我們回去會對四方電信委會去了解那另外補充那個四方電信它是一個IDC機房這個業務它是一個空間至於說那個企業客戶他本身的資料還是企業客戶所有你們在還沒有查查之前不需要多做說明因為"},{"start":5801.711,"end":5808.535,"text":"剛剛副主委你也提到你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過可是既然有這樣子包括剛剛講出來了子公司跟孫公司他是可以擁有客戶的這些相關的資料的所以其實他的管理除了這樣子回去以後你才要找他們嘛另外我們對於這些電信公司的機房NCC有沒有定期檢查"},{"start":5824.165,"end":5840.013,"text":"按照那個那個個資法第22條NCC每年都要去檢查最近剛好去檢查剛好完成了一個行政檢查都沒有問題就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查那當然是會有一些切施啦他對於個資的內用"},{"start":5842.815,"end":5859.657,"text":"內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失我們也要求他要改進所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態沒關係沒有很多時間齁你把你們最近才去查查是針對三大電信公司還是包括所有其他的我們先針對的是三大"},{"start":5860.558,"end":5880.354,"text":"所以現在如果有可能發生因為如果三大電信公司它本身規模很大然後它受制於很多的法律規範所以其實他們反而有很多事情是不會做或不敢做或者會依據法律的一些相關的制約可是如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉"},{"start":5881.215,"end":5889.878,"text":"所以就這些部分有很多過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多的問題局長也在這裡有很多像很多的事件發生的時候很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸可是這個已經事實存在而且在電視公然王逸川已經公然說出來那我們也擔心你像這樣子比如說在集會的活動場域裡面其實它有很多很明顯的就是有人民的政治傾向"},{"start":5909.924,"end":5917.868,"text":"今天如果政治傾向在我們國內你可以掌握可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候對人民會有什麼樣的危害比如說你去香港比如你去澳門或者甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響這些都在在顯示我們國安的一個漏洞不是只有三大電信業者你的子公司孫公司要怎麼管理這個我們希望很快的去把它的"},{"start":5935.475,"end":5938.036,"text":"規模的電信事業我們會對於那個個資資安這一部分我們會來了解會去檢查"},{"start":5957.904,"end":5979.398,"text":"除了了解跟檢查以外我們希望有具體的作為因為我們也擔心除了給王逸川以外因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做有可能啊不是只針對哪些特定人士而已他可以給王逸川他是不是也可以給中共的國安部甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚"},{"start":5979.938,"end":5991.551,"text":"好兩位請回我們接下來再請教一下局長針對我們今天有所謂的一個就是我們看到有相關的那個人士從"},{"start":6002.048,"end":6024.401,"text":"我們的淡水河口其實直接上岸其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安的問題我們現在要說的這個破口最重要的是它是一個非常大的破口我們一直講說它是灰色地帶然後一直把它導向說我們還有哪一個設備不足我們還有需要買什麼東西包括像過去"},{"start":6025.422,"end":6051.016,"text":"一直發生的無人機侵擾的事件無人機我們不是沒有投錢我們已經超過十幾年以上我們投入了超過百億以上的預算其實在研發無人機在做無人機相關的不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等其實我們都有做可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆的無人機過來了我們一點辦法都沒有到現在還是"},{"start":6052.905,"end":6075.715,"text":"現在我們看到這一個他是一個很大的國安破口不是只是講講一個灰色地帶而已我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸110年台中也上來過一個啊那時候也是他自己報案他說他很冷大家不知道有沒有印象結果他去報案的時候也是我們的民眾才去報案的才把他帶走110年就發生了可是我們現在這一次發生的更嚴重"},{"start":6083.032,"end":6111.435,"text":"比如說他曾經是有解放軍的背景而且他是自己上岸自己找人打電話以海軍的任務來說其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功因為他所有的作戰參數他都已經取得了包括海象以當時的海象包括他的油料包括他的時間包括他的路程他可以"},{"start":6112.176,"end":6139.71,"text":"自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經留過一遍他的資料已經刪除這針對一個任務來說他是已經完全成功這不是灰色地帶而且也不是懲處這樣這麼簡單上一次可以在台中這一次可以在我們台北下一次可能就在台南高雄這些作戰參數一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握我們的國安破口非常嚴重局長怎麼看"},{"start":6141.371,"end":6166.91,"text":"對 這個個案委員剛剛所指導的我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步的去做一些澄清跟進一步的了解那就管局這邊來講我們會特別關注的是該員他有自述有解放軍的背景那這部分再結合到他這一次是用小艇來直接到我們的淡水漁港所以我們會了解到他的相關的動機以及相關的路徑委員剛剛所提到的是路徑的一個的查證"},{"start":6167.771,"end":6175.122,"text":"那這部分我們會再配合到海巡署調查的結果來做後續的包括是涉及中國大陸他的身份跟動機的底情"},{"start":6176.704,"end":6197.818,"text":"局長因為我們在近期已經發生非常多的國安相關的事件我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決或者我們是等著其他的一個調查的結果或者等司法的判決結果其實這再再都沒有辦法改變我們現在發生的國安的這麼大的破口因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了可是這個事件"},{"start":6202.742,"end":6211.844,"text":"引發我們必須去非常重視的是其實他是自述說他有解放軍的背景我剛剛提到的他所有的作戰參數而且他是成功了到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船去接駁轉乘過來的還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來到現在還沒有辦法掌握如果他是大船接駁那還有一個問題就是我們的雷達怎麼了"},{"start":6228.988,"end":6246.278,"text":"因為我們不管是國防部或海巡其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關的雷達的監控可是如果是大船我們居然沒有注意到那今天如果是一個快艇雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚的掌握可是海巡6海里他都已經發現目標"},{"start":6248.4,"end":6263.754,"text":"依照經驗法則他判斷是漁船這個如果在海上有一個不明的目標這個在我們國軍來說他是一個黃色目標其實黃色目標是最危險的因為他不知道是底是有他不知道這到底是底艦還是有艦"},{"start":6266.897,"end":6281.795,"text":"他反而是更危險的可是我們居然沒有任何的作為我們不是只要買裝備而已你今天雷達他有可能因為霧太濃其實他也沒有辦法可以分析得很好今天如果說我們熱顯像"},{"start":6283.157,"end":6291.398,"text":"他有可能用其他的冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝其實都可以達到最重要的是人我們現在發生的就是這樣你一而再再而三不斷的發生還包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音或者可以跟對岸女子可以交往可是都沒有後續的結果這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情已經發生的我們到底做了什麼局長你簡要的說明一下"},{"start":6311.442,"end":6333.679,"text":"我想這案子委員剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報那再來第四個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第五個是委員所提到的"},{"start":6334.139,"end":6363.308,"text":"相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點局長這個精進的作為已經講很久了就我從上一次的無人機還有更早之前算110年臺中發生的事情那時候你不是局長可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多你如果說雷打都可以發現這樣子的一個有抓到雷打很不錯那更糟"},{"start":6364.048,"end":6384.854,"text":"那如果你雷達都抓到了結果我們人還讓他這麼安安全全的然後完全像沒事的人一樣就可以上岸這樣更糟我們花了那麼多錢到底為了什麼這必須要跟國人一個交代我們到現在國安的破口剛剛我提到的那幾件其實都沒有一件可以有具體的作為或調查的結果這個部分請國安局可以做具體的"},{"start":6389.335,"end":6393.879,"text":"一個相關的了解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣應該提供給委員會或者我們相關的國人很清楚的知道好不好對我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同除了海巡以外我剛剛提到很多事喔這些部分我們希望都可以具體的把一些相關的進度把它讓國人很清楚的在國人面前把它攤開"},{"start":6412.754,"end":6412.954,"text":"謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長"},{"start":6442.012,"end":6444.914,"text":"我們下面請瀋伯洋委員質詢謝謝主席有請局長跟中華電信好了謝謝局長請"},{"start":6470.768,"end":6489.699,"text":"三位委員好局長好那今天剛好呢一開始因為今天的題目是在講說國安局對於這個國安資訊是怎麼定義那但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情所以也是剛剛其實局長講得很好就是說第五中對是一個不容易定性很模糊的概念在華人委員這個也是我一直主張的所以我不知道他剛剛在講什麼"},{"start":6490.939,"end":6507.385,"text":"無論如何,我們對於風險高低這件事情真的是需要去認定剛好今天早上有一個新聞所以我想說先從這個新聞談起就是說這一次是在湖尾湖尾之前一直都會有說什麼到底武器發在那邊等等的爭議"},{"start":6509.566,"end":6524.899,"text":"在這一個選舉前一週的時候湖北的這個湖北鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險這個湖北會設導彈基地一旦爆炸方圓10公里將無人倖存然後不知道局長還記不記得這件事情有一陣子了"},{"start":6525.9,"end":6536.994,"text":"結果今天這個地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴這個不起訴裡面就有提到說發現這一個門號就是說發簡訊的這一個是由上海創蘭雲智"},{"start":6541.619,"end":6569.329,"text":"信息科技股份有限公司去向臺灣的一個叫互動公司承租所以看起來他是由這個承租之後再發簡訊所以我看起來因為他寫得不是很清楚但看起來是企業簡訊就是那一類的企業簡訊那所以這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係第一個就是顯然這是一個中國的公司結果在選舉權發送簡訊這是一個很大的問題第二個就是因為他發送的只有在"},{"start":6570.069,"end":6571.31,"text":"因為企業簡訊其實是合法的"},{"start":6597.091,"end":6604.497,"text":"所以像這種情形如果再度發生它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉這是破壞台灣的民主制度那以後我們應該要如何應處"},{"start":6605.273,"end":6634.649,"text":"好先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告那是不是再請中華電信局局長說明那就因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前那我們注意到在中共現在的對台借選的手法當中它越來越細緻化所以以這個案例來講可以發現到它是針對湖北當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息這大概是第一部分那第二部分就是變成是它傳播錯假訊息的主要的管道跟手法"},{"start":6634.929,"end":6660.909,"text":"那有的當然是在網路上來進行那有的是透過手機簡訊來進行那因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動所以這部分我是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明好 謝謝跟委員報告我想中華電信提供的是通訊服務所以在網路上端到端這些通訊的服務的內容在中華電信公司這邊我們是無權也不會去做相關的這個檢視但是在比如說"},{"start":6662.63,"end":6689.017,"text":"簡訊這個部分像近期我們配合那個跟主管機關依照主管機關指導去做相關的這個打詐上面賭詐的這個防治所以相關的事項如果再依法令需要中華電信配合的地方我想我們會完全協助來做處理這個事情但是還是要再重複的跟委員報告中華電信是通訊服務的公司我們對內容是不會去做檢視的"},{"start":6690.217,"end":6714.368,"text":"這個我知道就是說以中華電信的角度因為畢竟中華電信是以提供服務為主那它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情所以我覺得這件事情可能是需要後續的追蹤那剛好透過周冠廷議員今天把這一個PO出來我們才知道了這件事情那這是第一個所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情就是台灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的"},{"start":6715.248,"end":6732.36,"text":"那台灣人各自被搜集最主要搜集的對象是誰?監控是誰?我覺得我們常常會搞錯那整體討論的方向中國在搜集台灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2300萬的資料又或者健保相關的資料"},{"start":6733.16,"end":6757.727,"text":"那是中國駭客放上去的所以當這些資料能夠被取得或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候呢這個時候呢其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或在選舉的時候大家都可以做相關的一些利用所以呢第一件事情我現在想再問這個國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過因為剛好中華電信在這裡我想問一下就是說因為這邊呢"},{"start":6758.587,"end":6782.997,"text":"中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":6783.857,"end":6786.399,"text":"我跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有"},{"start":6801.972,"end":6830.43,"text":"那就這個人流分析的部分也在跟委員報告我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用所以不會有涉及到各自的議題那下一個問題就是說在去識別化的狀況之下那有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較因為你已經去識別化了嘛那去識別化了之後呢比如說發生在AD跟發生在BD的人有沒有重疊這個按照你們本來的提供服務是有辦法去做比對的嗎"},{"start":6831.859,"end":6855.776,"text":"這個部分去識別的話基本上是輪廓資料所以輪廓資料的這個比對呢我想就會是輪廓上的比對不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對所以至少會有輪廓的比對嗎對輪廓的部分就像大家在做一般性的數據分析總會對自己辦的活動每一次的event去做一下性別年齡的這些比較"},{"start":6857.197,"end":6871.774,"text":"再來要特定到個人其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情但目前在我們就是說已在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這件事情的其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過"},{"start":6872.415,"end":6899.171,"text":"任何的服務去購買資料比如說手遊又比如說任何的看天氣的APP這些都會取得很多手機上其他的資訊Android ID在某個版本之前甚至是可以被拿到的還有Device ID等等之類的那更不要講說早期還可以拿IMEI那現在沒有辦法拿到所以廣告公司會取得很多這樣的資料之後很多服務的公司取得這個資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司"},{"start":6899.691,"end":6926.301,"text":"所以目前我在檯面上看到的能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司所以這邊其實反過來講是想要問這個局長這一邊就是說現在廣告公司掌握這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多就那種第三方的廣告公司所以它不一定是哪一個國家的它有可能是跨國的企業那這種第三方廣告公司我們當然國安單位不可能直接跟他們合作這是一定的"},{"start":6926.801,"end":6930.424,"text":"對於電信公司來講他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關的法規來進行那這部分我們當然也會假如有相關的情資的話也會跟相關的調查機關或檢查機關來進行舉發"},{"start":6953.524,"end":6954.264,"text":"對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範"},{"start":6983.453,"end":6999.43,"text":"但怕就是怕說有些廣告公司在台灣是完全沒有落地的那雖然這次有一些落地的條款但只是辦落地那如果說今天服務甚至是中國提供的因為台灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走我認為這個可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境"},{"start":7000.051,"end":7016.463,"text":"那這件事情到底要怎麼做我覺得這個可能是質詢二三十分鐘都講不完的地方所以我先打住在這裡那最後只是想問一下就是說符合今天的題目就是說就是目前來講我們國安資訊的這個定義啦我看到這個在報告上面也有提到就是通訊保安監察法第7條啦"},{"start":7017.364,"end":7038.696,"text":"所以也就是說譬如說像我們今天這個有一些社會運動啊什麼等等之類的民間企業當然像剛剛講的會做這些人流分析啊輪廓分析等等之類的那以國安局的角度來講呢最主要都是以這個通報法第7條為主那除了這個以外呢就是說譬如說好今天大家都在談這個青鳥行動以國安局的角度來講是什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的"},{"start":7039.867,"end":7061.449,"text":"主要涉及到還是要依照法律的規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的通訊保障跟監察法授權底下所進行的通訊檢查那就這部分來講涉及到國安的資訊主要涉及到是有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外境內以及跨境的相關的活動資訊而這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全"},{"start":7061.929,"end":7085.67,"text":"有涉及到這一部分的問題的話我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案的審核審核完之後再送請到高等法院來進行採核可以的話才會由本人也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊檢查書給司法警察機關所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹那看起來這個應該不是跟一個境外敵對勢力有關的一個案件對是並不是謝謝局長那謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":7090.47,"end":7098.853,"text":"待會 待會 洪聖翰委員質詢完畢以後 休息5分鐘我們現在請王定宇召委上台質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩國安局長請國安局蔡局長"},{"start":7121.31,"end":7135.898,"text":"主席王文豪局長這裡有一些是你們揭露的狀態然後我要聽聽看你的意見在中共去年反間諜法通過其實不只台灣各國都提出警告因為他的反間諜法的定義不明"},{"start":7136.578,"end":7137.218,"text":"以上這兩個狀況本席描述就你們掌握是否為證"},{"start":7164.838,"end":7181.604,"text":"是,這也是為什麼在去年7月中共對外公佈反間諜法之前,我們照歸院來做相關的專案報告,就現在提醒有這樣的區域要注意。那個情形不是只針對台灣嗎?我看美國、澳洲、加拿大、歐洲都有人,因為這樣子有的撤資,有的呢?"},{"start":7182.384,"end":7207.054,"text":"美國是正式發出旅行警告甚至於警告商務旅客去中國的可能風險那下個月今年7月開始中國根據保守國家秘密法又多丟出兩個國家他們的國家安全措施就是他懷疑任何人你就要把手機交出來通訊器材交出來密碼交出來否則就先抓再講這也為真嘛所以7月份之後"},{"start":7208.26,"end":7227.659,"text":"也許有人會說99.9的人不會被影響也許有人會說這個你叫乖乖沒守規矩就沒關係了重點在於如果一個國家政府可以這樣做的時候人人都要面臨這個風險這個風險是完全不可迴避那對一個國家尤其民主國家是不可以發聲的"},{"start":7228.88,"end":7244.761,"text":"所以國安局有沒有給我們其他相關單位像外交部、旅遊警告、陸委會等等你們對於目前去那邊旅遊、經商、去拜訪朋友等等你們正式的警告是什麼"},{"start":7245.262,"end":7263.477,"text":"對我想到對岸去進行相關的旅遊或求學的活動那我們還是要特別提醒那中共他因為有一些國安法制在過去這一年多來的強化那一定要特別注意到人身安全還有個人的通訊安全因為我看你們提出來的樣態連那個一貫道拿著速食推廣手冊他被抓起來現在回來了嗎"},{"start":7264.578,"end":7289.762,"text":"對,現在委員所螢幕上呈現的這些樣態都是由本局來提供給相關單位對,我看到你們有個故事是有一個一貫道的道青,帶著素食的有有有,這個有那個人放回來了沒?呃,應該,呃,還沒有還沒有還沒有放回來了現在因為一些不同的國安原因,遭到中共來拘留審判的大概有15人那另外在入出進中國過程當中遭到"},{"start":7291.102,"end":7312.27,"text":"對騷擾或是留置詢問的大概有47元但這是我們國安單位掌握到比較具體的個案而且是當事人或隨團的當事人有通報的個案這可能只是冰山的一角我是透過今天質詢呼籲我們民眾去中國如果在海關被你抓進小房間問你票投哪一檔問你在當任村里長之前的軍職工作有都有這樣的問題因為我看到你們有這樣樣態我們是應該呼籲民眾遇到這個狀況應該要向有關單位呈報那他應該跟誰回報呢"},{"start":7319.573,"end":7340.851,"text":"對,假如民眾在對岸從事商務或相關旅遊的過程當中有遭到這樣的騷擾的話,我們當然是希望他回到台灣之後,可以立即來跟跟誰?跟誰回報?他總不能去警察局報案說,那個把公安抓起來?回報機制是什麼?對,可以跟我們的兩岸事務主管機關來進行通報海基會也可以,陸委會也可以"},{"start":7342.642,"end":7369.415,"text":"有這個窗口可以讓你們回報?應該可以,沒有問題如果民眾遭遇到這樣子莫名其妙的騷擾或者人身、人權的侵犯他回來可以向陸委會、海基會相關的窗口來我建議你們這個宣導一下因為你們掌握的建樹偏低啦可能很多民眾要問問的過去就算啦應該呈現一個樣貌讓我們知道違邦不入這個違邦的數據到底到多少"},{"start":7369.975,"end":7390.837,"text":"對,我剛剛也跟委員特別說明了,我們剛剛掌握的數據只是冰山的一角,那是透過國安單位有對於當事人的約談以及隨團當事人的說明,我們才能把這個數據列進去。因為我們今天的主題叫做這個監控啊,政府的不當控制,其實要看什麼叫政府不當控制,看中國就知道,你看中國啊,他們的天網工程,"},{"start":7391.858,"end":7417.836,"text":"所謂的不當控制是所有的數據所有的影像所有的發言可以連結到個人或家人他可以給你扣分像社會信用體系他要扣你的分數當然要知道你是誰就連到各支可以處罰你在台灣臉書PO文的在這邊讀書的中國學生他的家屬在山東我就知道一個個案當老師的就被公安叫去問說你兒子講話最好注意一點"},{"start":7418.556,"end":7436.822,"text":"就像在昨天中國東北地區有4個外國人被人用刀捅了之後幾秒之後所有網路上的訊息通通刪掉了這個才叫監控這個監控到個人到家屬可以處罰可以警告可以扣分所以像中國光2023年用維穩當理由"},{"start":7440.143,"end":7458.493,"text":"抓進監獄裡維穩就是你講話影響國家穩定你罵了國家領導你傷害了社會安定被抓進去關的有240萬人所以這題目我們今天題目太好了那個就是國家機器監控整個社會國家機器監控整個社會"},{"start":7459.841,"end":7485.807,"text":"那在台灣社會有的人樂於指控台灣政府坦白講啦 國安局有這麼有本事的話你不會在那邊被我問的啦換我被抓起來了啦就樂於指控台灣社會有監控更樂於去擁抱監控逮捕240萬人的極權政府荒謬嘛所以我回到那個 局長先請回我請中華電信那個副總喔NCC來請上來齁"},{"start":7492.412,"end":7504.498,"text":"事實上所謂的數據分析跟各自監控我不知道我這樣分法對不對兩位也是專家data跟metadata的差別"},{"start":7505.66,"end":7531.121,"text":"如果說用詮釋資料有人叫做後設資料有人叫做詮釋資料有人叫描述資料也就是datadata就是原始的數據資料我來描述它的輪廓描述它的樣貌描述它的特徵給予一定的詮釋這個叫做商業運用大數據人流分析我這樣描述有沒有錯誤"},{"start":7532.83,"end":7560.383,"text":"委員講得很正確這其實有一條線啦這條線誰知道呢現在高中生、大學生知道啦就是說今天我如果掌握誰來遊行我可以找到你家找到你的家人給你處罰、給你警告那個是透過RAW DATA去監控人民那如果我透過一場演唱會跨年晚會一場遊行、兩場遊行我來描述說它的平均年齡概括到底在哪裡"},{"start":7561.263,"end":7574.333,"text":"他的樣貌所謂的樣貌是數據樣貌特徵是什麼這就是幾年常常講的大數據分析嘛我們不是有大數據專家在當立委嗎就把這兩個混淆在一起"},{"start":7575.589,"end":7602.156,"text":"好多個委員會都在問同樣的題目其實把data跟metadata弄清楚之後國安局掌握這條線有沒有raw data外洩有沒有raw data被濫用有沒有raw data被拿出來處理有違法沒有我們不能去扼殺metadata的運用阿因為這是現代社會包含AI在學習的進步當中metadata都要用的所以"},{"start":7602.876,"end":7623.611,"text":"我今天我不是調查單位我沒辦法說誰有誰沒有但是我們常常混淆這兩件事情的憤記會讓現在各大數據公司電信公司我看最近不要做調查行李不做了商場分析不敢做比方說我不能去描述某個診所哪個患者患了什麼疾病我違法"},{"start":7624.372,"end":7639.88,"text":"但我們可以描述說在臺灣的多少人以下的診所平均有多少人次看的是慢性病前十大為什麼要不然我們每一年公佈前十大慢性疾病前十大癌症怎麼公佈的那個就叫做metadata他有很多運用這兩場演唱會"},{"start":7643.441,"end":7667.945,"text":"前面一場來的都是50歲的因為演唱者唱的是大學成時代的後面這一場唱的唱的都是16噸在那邊跳來跳去的那個年齡大概30歲以下這個叫做描述數據詮釋數據所以兩位我們台灣目前對大數據或者人流或者所謂的厚色數據詮釋資料的應用我們這個市場已經進入多久了"},{"start":7668.953,"end":7686.416,"text":"我想跟委員報告其實早期從LBS到現在的這個就是大數據的分析我想這個已經有10年以上10年多了啦10年多了啦然後有的數據叫做第二層數據這是我們在寫論文用的我就不贅述所以"},{"start":7686.917,"end":7711.248,"text":"不要因業廢食不要因為政治上政治上可以立場不同可以互相攻防甚至於因為在某個地方疊了膠社會觀感不佳全部轉移焦點來處理另外這個是政治上的攻防但不要因為政治上的攻防去扼殺了一個發展十多年的數據或者是外貿這種分析的一個產業我也建議NCC有一條線要守住"},{"start":7712.128,"end":7719.74,"text":"那條線叫科學法律這兩件事把手住來那兩位請回我最後一分鐘值請問海巡署副署長"},{"start":7722.54,"end":7751.969,"text":"那個謝副署長你本身你是警還是軍出身的警職我不知道我們這邊有沒有海軍出身的昨天的海象大概三級浪高大概兩米到三米然後那一艘快艇到淡水的快艇是大概五噸而已很小七米長1.97公尺寬大概預判是五噸以下應該是不到五噸浪高兩米到三米從福州直接開到"},{"start":7753.359,"end":7779.044,"text":"我們這裡 容不容易開我們研判可能的因為距離大概135海里左右大概約260公里那油箱它有260公升它的油料可能帶夠了但是我看媒體有一群媒體第一時間報導說有大船換小船有沒有這個情形這部分我們研判是臆測目前沒有具體證據因為我們勘查你講它直接開來其實也是臆測"},{"start":7780.698,"end":7797.833,"text":"從油料跟相關的數位證據來我們手機有查扣那目前就是我們一勘查現場那船體沒有任何的吊掛設備那另外油料等等相關機證它直航過來是包括剛才海象當事人是主張它直航還是中間中轉"},{"start":7799.491,"end":7820.849,"text":"當事人是陳述是說他是直航過來我覺得查清楚啦因為我們淡水河口有淡水大隱是我們國防重鎮是首都衛旭的本島的最重要一條線我們的特戰部隊還要守在那邊如果一條艇就這樣過來的話你們昨天的陳述對的硬體沒問題是人的判斷出問題第二個"},{"start":7821.73,"end":7823.531,"text":"我們做最嚴格的判斷,我們會做最好的準備"},{"start":7854.305,"end":7858.489,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台諮詢謝謝主席 有請國家通訊傳播委員會翁副主委請NCC副主委委員好"},{"start":7876.984,"end":7897.316,"text":"副主委好副主委我們這幾年呢我國的這個詐騙的這個案件呢是成長非常的這個迅速那案件量跟這個詐騙的金額就是逐年在攀升那賴清德總統這個上台就是上任以前呢其實這個現在有一個媒體他曾經做了一個民調"},{"start":7898.817,"end":7901.66,"text":"那就是說認為就是賴政府上任之後國人最擔憂的問題是什麼結果出來就是49.7%的認為就是說詐騙這部分應該要儘速來做處理他比這個低薪高物價高通膨的都還要高的一個擔憂的一個問題"},{"start":7919.156,"end":7938.092,"text":"但像過去的話我們有看到就是說其實有很多的這個社群平台他們其實都有假冒這個名人然後刊登這個廣告的事件其實很多國人都信以為真然後呢都被詐騙了"},{"start":7940.774,"end":7941.094,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7960.805,"end":7981.719,"text":"一罪一罰那甚至2017年的時候詐騙騎騰收腦那要加重等等可是這些呢都沒有辦法來遏止這個詐騙的這個這個犯罪案件的這個發生那像過去有一些數位平台他們比如說收取了一些詐騙集團的一些廣告費然後呢可是我們對"},{"start":7983.4,"end":8005.055,"text":"這些,可是這些詐騙,他們刊登的這些詐騙集團的這個廣告之後,過去是沒有任何的責任嘛,對不對?請問副主委,像過去的話,我們是無法可管嘛,像比如說我們看到一個數位平台上面刊登的一個王仁勳假冒,假冒王仁勳,然後這個的一個詐騙的一個廣告,像過去就是無法可管。"},{"start":8007.15,"end":8025.903,"text":"是這樣子嗎副主委我想那個跟委員報告現在打造專法裡面就對這些數位平台他有民眾假使有要去下下要去投放這個數位廣告以後要實名制我想說打造專法之後那個對數位平台已經有他"},{"start":8026.823,"end":8055.589,"text":"民眾有人有一些業者他要到這個數位平台去投放廣告要有實名制我想這一部分應該可以遏止打詐裝罰是 現在過去就是沒有嘛現在本席之前也執行過相關的這個問題我們說我們一切都要從源頭管理開始可是這麼多年以來一直都沒有做所以受害的這個民眾是無數所以我想說打詐四法下來之後其實我們有修了"},{"start":8056.469,"end":8074.414,"text":"相關就是這些像這個數位平台如果說刊登這種詐騙明天正好就是一個詐騙的廣告可是卻刊登了所以我們現在相關的法律是有規範它必須要有責任嘛是不是可是我們查緝是請問是如何查緝呢"},{"start":8075.394,"end":8094.817,"text":"我想說這個部分是數位部他有跟所有的數位平台他因為這樣以後投放廣告都要透明就是說要實名制要透明我想這個部分數位部已經有跟Meta或者Google這些數位平台已經有在做了因為"},{"start":8096.438,"end":8120.221,"text":"因為數位部這邊也很加速的在做這件事情有 確實有 而且我想說我們也知道打詐這個專法會過 可能近期就會過所以說數位部已經在準備這些前置的作業另外通傳會這邊我們也會針對那個黑美卡就是這些國際漫遊的義務卡這一部分"},{"start":8120.882,"end":8123.044,"text":"昨天也找電信公司來跟他們講做一些討論怎麼樣來加速這個就是對這個黑美卡怎麼樣來防治"},{"start":8143.861,"end":8154.804,"text":"謝謝副主委的這個說明那我們也希望就是說能夠透過NCC或是跟法務部還有訴法部一起來努力因為說實在的我覺得台灣的這個詐騙的這個狀況越來越嚴重我講對台灣的國際形象其實也是不佳的所以我們希望就是說從源頭開始來管理是不是可以遏止這些詐騙的這個事件來發生啦謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":8171.649,"end":8194.171,"text":"好那再來我們剛剛有提到所謂的這個打詐司法其實我今天有看了這個國安局的這個報告就是說不管我們是不是比如說國安局他要核發通訊監察書之前他都要呈報向台灣高等法院的專責的法官同意基本上來講的話好像他們在這方面就是說比如說需要"},{"start":8196.033,"end":8196.433,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":8211.738,"end":8237.304,"text":"檢調跟這個通信業者索取相關資料這個程序的話是不是也會說比照國安局的這個做法我想說那個通傳會這邊在電信管理法上面就是檢調機關他要去調那個通信監察或調列調列通信紀錄都是由採法官保留的原則或者檢察官保留的原則這個都是依法有按照這個程序在做"},{"start":8237.944,"end":8241.066,"text":"有些商業的行為比如說有些廠商他是不是會收取一些資料然後用這個買賣的方式然後給一些需要的一些單位或者是說"},{"start":8257.955,"end":8258.615,"text":"通訊記錄就是說假使檢調機關他要去調閱"},{"start":8277.924,"end":8294.936,"text":"他要去執行通信監察或調味通信記錄的話都是我們按照電信管理法電管法或者通保法上面都要採法官保留至於說民間有一些數據公司比如說Google或者是Meta"},{"start":8295.556,"end":8311.472,"text":"他們有因為收集到民眾的一些個資其實那個APP我講一句話就是不用錢最貴那你使用他這個APP之後你的個資可能會被他收集"},{"start":8311.912,"end":8321.618,"text":"但是這個部分你在使用這個APP的時候所以反而是APP的那個是比較危險比較漏洞的這個部分所以不要隨便下載APP這個部分確實是剛才也有委員提到確實要來民眾在使用這些那個APP的時候要注意到就是說你的同意你同意他的個資是到什麼樣的程度你的定位"},{"start":8337.248,"end":8349.999,"text":"你同意到什麼程度可能也要就是使用者自己要去了解但是假使是電信法、電管法的部分NCC這邊都要求電信事業一定要遵守"},{"start":8353.101,"end":8367.046,"text":"各支法的規定、治安法的規定甚至要按照假使有檢調單位來要求通信監察或者是要調位通聯記錄一定要有檢察官或法官核發的一些證明"},{"start":8367.884,"end":8394.029,"text":"那還有我再請教一下副主委我們行政院就要成立這個各自委員會委員會這已經有設立這個籌備處了往後我們NCC跟這個各自委員會之間的連結呢或是這個怎麼樣的連結這個部分就是6月3號我們在大院交通委員會也提到就是未來電信事業我們會電信事業會導入個人資料去識別化的驗證標準規範我們會來跟去識別化不是過去一直都有在做嗎"},{"start":8394.629,"end":8417.741,"text":"對,但是這個部分要有一個比較標準的、驗證標準的規劃我們會跟那個各支籌備委員會一起來努力趕快來建立,對OK好謝謝,我在想這個各支委員會的這個成立還有NCC像我們這個打架司法的這個出現看是不是可以說有效的來嚇止一些這個各支外鬧或者是說被詐騙的這個情形這個發生"},{"start":8422.144,"end":8428.953,"text":"副主委您先回座我要想請教另外一題就是國安局我們蔡局長請蔡局長副局長好"},{"start":8435.177,"end":8442.362,"text":"司法局長最近中國的探空氣球平常入侵我國尤其是說520之後今年據說都超過百顆的探空氣球侵入我國的領空當然中國的說法說沒有我們只不過是要去收集一些氣象的資料而已那你對於中國的說法你覺得他這個是不是有點逼中就輕是不是真的有其他的目的"},{"start":8463.818,"end":8479.197,"text":"對,中國的碳空氣球到我們的空域來活動大概主要集中的都是在每一年的11月到隔年的4月那因為配合到西南季風的推出可以讓碳空氣球飄到台海中線以東的相關的空域"},{"start":8479.597,"end":8507.159,"text":"那對於這部分來講今年為止已經有121顆的中共的探空氣球到台海空域來進行活動那我們認為說它可能除了一般的相關的科研研究以外也要注意到它有相關的軍事用途因為它可以收集相關的大器的數據那對於未來解放軍假如火箭軍或遠程火炮要進行攻擊的話這些數據都可以當作一個火炮試射當中要控制的這些大器的數據資料的參用的圖示"},{"start":8509.241,"end":8534.135,"text":"所以局長認為所以他這個其實說他只是收集氣象的這些資料其實他背後其實可能還有其他的對那另外也要注意到因為他的這些的洗腦飄的空域大概都在1萬到2萬8的這個因此的高空那也會是我們的戰機跟民航機特別是國內間國內線的民航機的相關的飛岸活動那這是另外一個層面要注意的"},{"start":8534.275,"end":8534.295,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":8564.639,"end":8566.701,"text":"接下來請洪森和委員上台質詢"},{"start":8587.698,"end":8601.987,"text":"主席請關局蔡局長然後NCC翁副主委請蔡局長NCC副主委然後還有中華電信中華電信林副總謝謝主席 委員好"},{"start":8605.902,"end":8630.637,"text":"呃 局長我其實我們一直在本委員會其實這個我記得之前我們已經兩度其實討論臺馬海蘭的事情那其實這個議題我也是在去年的時候3月當時就質詢過陳建仁院長那我今天為什麼還要再談這一題的原因是因為我其實感覺到"},{"start":8631.892,"end":8658.384,"text":"一個很明確而且正當性很高的國安的訴求主張但我感覺現在在行政部門裡面卻出現了一些阻力這是我今天為什麼還要再持續在談這一題的原因這個我其實在去年3月的時候其實那時候我就很明確說"},{"start":8660.206,"end":8686.216,"text":"臺馬海蘭應該列入關鍵基礎設施去年3月的時候陳院長也表達應該那這一年多來我陸陸續續跟NCC包括跟海巡署包括也質詢過蔡局長蔡局長也跟我說你也覺得臺馬海蘭應該列入CI那NCC你覺得臺馬海蘭該不該列入CI"},{"start":8688.378,"end":8714.477,"text":"跟委員報告因為馬祖跟台馬之間的海嵐那個被漁船勾斷的次數太多了也有一些事情我是認為說有必要把它列入台馬海嵐要把它列入關鍵基礎設施那因為這個部分是電信管理法42條的規定需要由數位部來認定那問題來了現在問題來了因為今天數位部不在"},{"start":8715.698,"end":8736.206,"text":"NC現在大概很清楚表達其實應該列入關鍵基礎設施然後由數位部以韌性保護的部分來去處理這個事情現在我們看到5月15號國土辦有找了國安局、海巡署、速發部等單位其實討論過一次這個事情當時是有說由主管機關速發部與中華電信進行下一階段的評估"},{"start":8738.707,"end":8753.11,"text":"這場會議5月15號到現在其實已經將近快一個月的時間了我拿到一份公文下一張再下一張速發部在上禮拜6月7號發一個文給中華電信速發部說請貴公司評估是否將國內海嵐納入關鍵基礎設施的範圍並於2024年8月9號"},{"start":8767.051,"end":8794.008,"text":"附件格式填寫相關的調查表中華電信昨天這是禮拜五的發函那昨天是第一個上班日那我其實我的辦公室也跟中華電信來去做詢問那中華電信現在給我的回答是中華電信是一家民間公司無權限決定只能被動接受"},{"start":8795.25,"end":8810.709,"text":"那我跟中華電信說那可不可以讓我們知道一下中華電信是內部是哪一個單位在負責這件事情中華電信回覆我說不方便透露林副總現在可不可以回覆了"},{"start":8812.657,"end":8830.948,"text":"報告委員,我想中華電信對相關事項的評估跟決策有一定的流程,所以這可能不是哪一個單一單位對這個部門做出的決策。那你副總,那我現在問副總嘛,你是代表你們董事長來的嘛,那中華電信現在對於台馬海岸納入CEI你們的看法是怎樣?"},{"start":8832.429,"end":8861.553,"text":"我想就如同關鍵基礎設施這一個部分呢中華電信這邊都是配合相關的法令的指定不是啊現在數位部請你們評估啊看看剛剛的那份公文數位部請貴公司評估啊是那評估的部分因為剛聞到本公司我想相關的作為我們會盡快的這個展開那也跟委員報告在中華電信公司相關的決策事項呢在整個經營團隊會去做過討論之後再做相關的這一個回覆跟說明"},{"start":8863.373,"end":8884.736,"text":"林副總 這個會議是5月15號就開的喔交由數位部跟中華電信兩個去做下一階段的評估喔國安局也說應該NCC也說應該局長我們現在看到變成數位部跟中華電信兩個在互踢皮球啊"},{"start":8886.162,"end":8910.81,"text":"你覺得這個事物對於我們整體國安來說是好事嗎?對,就國安局角度來講因為我們在跨部會的協調平台就是行政院的國土安全協調會報我們可以出席所以針對這個問題假如有召開相關會報的話我們會繼續來反映局長,我們剛才活生生看到中華電信跟數位部故踢皮球的過程嘛數位部發文了中華電信說對不起我不便評估"},{"start":8913.817,"end":8915.198,"text":"你會評估嗎?那什麼時候可以給答案?所以什麼時候可以給答案?"},{"start":8931.681,"end":8953.841,"text":"這個事情是我從去年3月這不是新議題喔去年3月台馬海欄斷掉連續斷兩次的時候我們當時就問這件事情已經事隔一年又三個月囉你們其實是這相關的你們應該是維護者的角色嘛對不對你們維護者的角色到底對這件事情的看法是什麼現在沒有看法嗎"},{"start":8956.247,"end":8977.036,"text":"如果我們每一個相關的國安上面的關鍵基礎設施維護者都是這個態度的話我確實是覺得這對我們整體的國安來說其實是看慮的局長一年又三個月囉我們的維護者對這件事情還講不出看法"},{"start":8979.292,"end":8992.279,"text":"這不是新議題不是一個月又三不是一個月喔跟委員報告那個騎乘的部落降我一定會依照主管機關的要求去做配合另外剛剛委員也提到說中華電信是關潛技術設施的維護者"},{"start":8994.46,"end":9020.355,"text":"關於相關的評估的部分納入關鍵基礎設施中華電信公司就要確實做到這個關鍵基礎設施應該要做到的事項我想這也是海嶺的部分確實有它的一些特殊性那再加上這個地域是對岸漁船的密集活動區域所以相關的事項的評估我們會從如何達成這個關鍵基礎設施的維護做相關的評估跟提出說明"},{"start":9021.115,"end":9046.34,"text":"副總看一下這個這是關鍵期五設施盤點作業須知這我想大家應該很熟悉個別設施的維護者不只是要打分數他還要對於進行設施的分級建議我其實不知道為什麼經過一年又三個月目前中華電信還沒有辦法對於台馬海嵐的問題就國安上面的問題給予具體的建議具體的態度為什麼還沒有辦法說出來"},{"start":9050.202,"end":9077.187,"text":"我們會盡快的去處理這個事情到底你給個時間點吧兩個禮拜我們會依照主管之關的期程裡面去完成辦理那個局長我坦白說我真的覺得這個過程齁我之前也給國安局給國土辦時間現在還弄到是現在是這樣子讓數位部跟中華電信之間互相踢來踢去"},{"start":9080.409,"end":9104.384,"text":"我真的認為這是從國安專業的角度來說,我不知道你從專業角度怎麼看待這個過程?對,我當然了解委員的關切我真的非常非常遺憾完全了解委員的關切,就那個我們的通訊韌性跟安全來講,外離島的海嵐確實是非常重要的議題,那也謝謝委員長期的關注那可能在評估過程當中,我的理解一個是事業機關他要做他自己的專業的評估,那另外還要再到主管機關進行跨部會的協調"},{"start":9105.905,"end":9133.533,"text":"那我剛剛也跟委員報告交友決策機關在所謂行政院的國土安全協調會報我們如果發聲的話我們會把委員這種的關切帶到討論的過程當中我知道你們已經進行跨部會協調了嘛國土辦也開會了嘛對所以國土辦的決議交由數位部跟中華電信來去做最後的評估跟判斷嘛我之前也問過你嘛你也跟我說了這個過程進入下一階段判斷嘛可是到目前為止兩邊看起來是在踢皮球啊"},{"start":9135.848,"end":9161.174,"text":"我認為從國安局的角度應該告訴、清楚告訴數位部跟中華電信這種踢皮球的態度是不符合國安需求的是違背我們在國安上面需求的我覺得國安局要把這方面的專業要講得非常清楚我們會來從國安的角度來提醒但因為現在的中華電信它還在它的作業階段那可能這一部分看怎麼樣配合到主管機關的要求儘快提出比較專業的評估去年3月陳院長就說應該納入"},{"start":9163.28,"end":9192.641,"text":"所有的人看這個CIA相關的規定都認為應該納入假如我們每一個關鍵基礎設施都要判斷一年三個月甚至要判斷一年半我其實會對我們這個CIA相關的維護跟風險管理真的是會很擔憂的我今天在這邊是我們在國防外交委員會我第三次質詢這件事情我真的是希望中華電信不能再用之前這種推卸的態度了"},{"start":9195.39,"end":9216.361,"text":"就用專業來判斷如果你們專業不足以國安專業不足以判的話你們就該跟國安局請教就該跟國土辦請教而不是用便宜形式的做法去年我們就講這件事今年之前這個中共的利劍行動也特別針對"},{"start":9218.325,"end":9220.186,"text":"我沒有辦法接受這種評估的時程"},{"start":9245.543,"end":9264.358,"text":"林副總麻煩你把這個訊息清楚的帶回你的公司裡面可以嗎是我今天沒有做其他的要求只希望在判斷這件事情上面從國安專業的角度來去處理這個問題而且這也不是我第一次要求在這個委員會我們就談了三次我也不是特別針對中華電信"},{"start":9266.738,"end":9267.158,"text":"我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":9699.805,"end":9701.646,"text":"請各位回座開始開會我們現在開始開會接下來請鍾嘉斌委員上台諮詢"},{"start":9730.345,"end":9757.67,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體、記者、女士先生有請國家安全局蔡局長以及法務部調查局吳副局長和NCC公務主委以及中華電信林副總請蔡局長還有以上各列席單位就位謝謝謝謝主席 周委員好好 局長好還有副局長以及副主委和副總"},{"start":9758.666,"end":9787.731,"text":"那麼我想今天我們在討論的呢就是關於司法調查的應用分析在電信心靈的使用上和商業學術有差別我先請教一下局長看你來我聊一下這個差別一般來講我們在使用電信心靈就是說所謂的中華電信類似的電信業者的這些手機訊號位置的時候從商業或學術研究來講他是在去識別化之後去分析一個群體的輪廓那當然他根據的是個資法跟契約要當事人同意但是呢這個跟我們國安情報或犯罪偵查"},{"start":9788.251,"end":9788.912,"text":"請問局長您對這樣的區分您是否同意?"},{"start":9811.307,"end":9834.791,"text":"對,本來就是按照依照法規來講,就是要有這樣的區分就我們的國安的相關的偵辦來講那他審查過程非常的嚴謹那尤其貴院所通過的通訪法也特別強調的概念是在於最小侵害的原則所以這部分是我們的依法行政主要的標準那吳局長這個跟你們的犯罪偵查是不是也是類似是這樣子"},{"start":9838.813,"end":9860.465,"text":"請問局長在我們國安及司法使用之後依法必須定期將這些年報送給立法院備查請問你們有根據通報法第16條之一有這樣做嗎有做了送到貴院來備查了調查局你們有嗎還是法務部報告當然有當然也有所以根據通報法現行的規定你們只要使用過之後都要送到立法院來備查對好謝謝兩位請回"},{"start":9862.281,"end":9887.85,"text":"好現在我們來看一下反而是現在各種的電信契約取得授權就很含糊啊我請教NCG副主委、翁副主委這是不是你們定型化契約的條款的38條他說假方因為業務上所掌握的就是電信業者掌握的乙方就是訂戶、用戶的有保密義務除了當事人要求查閱本身資料之外或者要符合各執法相關法令規定你們不得對電商介入這是不是你們定的"},{"start":9888.99,"end":9906.044,"text":"這個是按照我們電管法17條因為那個就是對用戶的各自的收集處理利用那有訂了這樣子一個定型化的企業那你來看一下遠傳電信的7月的第38條跟你們的一模一樣對不對沒有問題嘛遠傳的那第39條一樣嘛遠傳電信的7月第39條看得到嗎是一樣嘛好來中華電信林副總"},{"start":9913.7,"end":9935.851,"text":"很奇怪你們中華電信的7月的第37條第二項就不太一樣你們說乙方的資料甲方如果有個人收集目的以外的使用目的以外使用要得乙方的同意但是如果甲方處理過就是要去識別化確認第三人無法識別本人就去識別化之後就可以提供給第三人使用請問你們的條款跟ECV一樣"},{"start":9938.069,"end":9964.942,"text":"當然不一樣嘛,你們有沒有取得乙方同意,你們去識別化之後就不需要取得乙方同意了嘛,是不是這樣子?報告委員,我想中華電信這邊相關的事項還是依照各自…我是問你這一條是你們寫的嘛,你們就跟NCC規定不一樣嘛,而且你們前面還說要得乙方同意,但是呢去識別化之後呢,欸就好像不…但就可以提供給第三人,到底要不要乙方同意,要不要乙方同意?"},{"start":9967.011,"end":9974.127,"text":"往下看,要不要以方同意?去字變化之後你們的用戶資料要不要以方同意?你們也講不出來嘛"},{"start":9975.031,"end":10002.833,"text":"副主委知道了沒有你們訂的條款遠傳遵守啊中華電信的變造一下你覺得這樣有符合你們的規定嗎副主委請說報告委員那個這個部分我們會邀集三大電信業者要拉起你知道沒有直接回答問題嗎遠傳有照你們的規定走中華電信有沒有這個部分的話我們想說要拉起管制要按照NCC的那個來處理好那我們來直接看遠傳做什麼啦來往下看"},{"start":10003.593,"end":10025.433,"text":"這是遠傳的,遠傳的隱私權策略,他說收集這個範圍,但不限於,包括但不限於,很簡單耶,我可以看你的東西,但不限於這些東西,那我是不是什麼都可以看?這個條款說,我可以收集你的資料,但不限於以下這些資料,這些資料我一定要收集,但是不限於這些資料,遠傳的條款基本上也幫你看光光嘛,你同意嗎?"},{"start":10028.273,"end":10055.831,"text":"這邊我們就是說他要收集的時候事前他要自息同意事後他也可以控制可以option out這個是我們未來要求三大經驗他要做什麼你看他要做行銷他要做非公務機關依法定義務所進行的各自的收集及利用他要做廣告跟商業行為他要做其他合乎營業登記的行為他要做調查統計研究他要做其他諮詢跟顧問服務幾乎無所不包啊他的使用目的是這些這誰訂的"},{"start":10059.053,"end":10084.991,"text":"這遠傳自己告訴你的什麼都可以看什麼都可以用往下看來盧秀燕市長的臺中市政府怎麼跟遠傳合作他可以透過這些資料瞭解國籍、年齡、性別、居住地他可以去分析跟你跟記者聯繫他可以聯繫到你私戀你的數位足跡、順由的景點住宿的概況、線上的行為社群使用的概況請問副主委你就是這樣的內容"},{"start":10086.365,"end":10105.663,"text":"有沒有超出商業應用還是已經到達了可以政治隱私的程度報委員這個重點是說他要去識別化而且他只能去識別化我也可以說不知道你是具體個人我透過你停留的地點你移動的方式你採用的行為我可以推斷是誰嗎不是嗎你覺得這樣可以接受嗎"},{"start":10107.091,"end":10131.253,"text":"這邊我們會請...我會來督導三大電信業者金管會怎麼做?金融業它都有一個共同行銷特別商議條款你們可不可以比照金融共同行銷去取得消費者的積極同意我今天辦信用卡他會告訴我很清楚地告訴我一張紙你們知道嗎?剛剛中華電信那個東西有沒有在給消費者的契約上?沒有!"},{"start":10132.366,"end":10137.74,"text":"在網路上你簽了你自己看就像反諮詢一樣法律通過了再跟你報告"},{"start":10139.431,"end":10164.165,"text":"中華電信是不是這樣子我剛剛講那些內容你們有公布在你們的契約裡面嗎沒有你們公布在網站上我消費者跟你打了合約我跟你訂了手機我現在同意什麼內容我要上網去看副主委你知道嗎我知道他有用那個這樣可以嗎我想跟謝委員的指導這一部分我們會來努力把它拉起而且會比照那個金管會的那個來辦來副總"},{"start":10165.726,"end":10192.112,"text":"今天你是泡口焦點阿你們覺得這樣做可以嗎跟委員先報告一下齁我們那個各支的條款除了網站有公告之外在受理業務的時候網路上有公告我簽了你的條約我的契約上的書面沒有你叫我自己去網路上看他是分離的一個對這是個分離的行為主委、副主委聽到沒有分離的行為在本公司受理作業的時候會是這是你們制定的規定NC有沒有同意"},{"start":10193.868,"end":10208.305,"text":"分離的契約內容你簽了一個契約契約的文字你上網去看副主委來最後的結論跟委員再報告一下他那個簽署的部分會包含上面所有的是啊我簽署這個契約部分的內容是要上網自己去看的副主委來"},{"start":10209.386,"end":10234.825,"text":"上週我在教會已經提出面諮詢了NCC目前進度我要求你們修正定型化契約簡易顯著告訴客戶的使用目的設計的欄位要供客戶勾選同意不得因客戶未同意就拒絕提供服務NCC是不是按照這個方式來處理八位我們在近期會來修訂那個定型化契約按照委員指導的方向來處理好那最後中華電信要不要配合修正"},{"start":10235.626,"end":10264.07,"text":"跟著委員報告我們目前在這一個各自告知事項的預設就是不同意所以要客戶選擇同意以後我們才會客戶不知道他同意了什麼啦你們的最大的問題就這裡啦謝謝副主委副主委什麼時候可以告訴我們告訴本委員會我想我們在年底之前會把年底之前要幾月電信化企業全部再重新修訂就按照委員指導的方式年講完對12月31號對是主席可以接受嗎"},{"start":10266.277,"end":10267.158,"text":"接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":10300.862,"end":10306.344,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請國安局的蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 賴委員好你好 這個我跟你幾次的巡打我的感覺就是女人長得很帥口才很好但是講很多講了半天你才中的你才"},{"start":10329.414,"end":10353.407,"text":"你知道嗎就是像泥鰍一樣你常常就是你的回答都沒有HIT POINT就是沒有講出來沒有答案你今天大家都最關心的大陸的前庭長或者縣長直沖淡水你答案就是任何可能都有這樣國安局"},{"start":10354.332,"end":10354.392,"text":"請問你請問你"},{"start":10372.418,"end":10388.249,"text":"有沒有為這個事情開國安會議?有,我剛剛也跟其他委員有報告過在事情發生之後那國安會第一時間就召開了跨部會協調會議來釐清水灘主席是由國安會的吳秘書長主持的秘書長來主持?不是總統嗎?這個問題叫做笑死全世界"},{"start":10396.912,"end":10424.858,"text":"這部分整個的過程剛剛海巡署也跟其他委員有說明也就是說他在六海里外的時候海巡署的雷達就已經掌握到這艘小艇的位置那後續在做判讀上可能有做一些誤判所以才有昨天做了一些查處你看喔他到了這個位置"},{"start":10426.55,"end":10428.431,"text":"那個時間又是漲潮他到大家從漁人碼頭到大家碼頭什麼意思沿山指揮所、橫山指揮所、海軍司令部不到一個小時耶大稻埕碼頭總統這裡都不到一個小時總統府這裡很可怕耶你不覺得這事情很可怕嗎"},{"start":10448.446,"end":10476.274,"text":"這個很嚴肅的問題啊對,這個案例確實很特別是不是很緊張?我們的國防、海防、國防你在幹什麼呢?對,這個案例確實有引起我們的高度的關注特別是當事人他有自己稱他有解放軍的背景所以對於各種的推論我為什麼一開始會講各種可能都有也就是委員剛剛講的可能性也都在其中所以這也是後續查查重點那因為檢方已經起辦偵查了我們這部分就讓觀眾檢發就像我質詢前兩分鐘"},{"start":10486.58,"end":10500.129,"text":"我們再注意中方相關的資訊有時候有出現這種類似灰色地帶的襲擾我們看到中共有一些媒體會做一些訊息操作目前在注意還沒有看到大規模的訊息操作還沒有"},{"start":10500.66,"end":10511.794,"text":"他剛發布喔對這是官方的說法官方的說法對說個人行為他沒有介入可是我都很質疑啊我都懷疑啊他一燒幾萬塊的快艇可以開這麼久嗎開十幾個小時"},{"start":10516.631,"end":10517.953,"text":"報告委員這艘船的話：公述是從寧德出港"},{"start":10532.325,"end":10553.399,"text":"距離我們台灣大概就是136海里,油量我們查出發時是260公升,船上還有備用的油桶,淡水已經剩下133公升從這個基震跟相關的電子取證部分,我們研判這個說法是合理,但是不排除任何可能"},{"start":10554.602,"end":10555.883,"text":"前面一堆漁船主力艦隊在後面"},{"start":10583.226,"end":10585.609,"text":"是,對,剛剛也是在分析整個案情,我們認為各種可能性都有,不能夠排除"},{"start":10593.895,"end":10616.893,"text":"幾個可能告訴我們不要糊弄幾個可能跟我們講一下檢方在偵辦但第一個部分有可能是有中共配合到這一陣子的揮帶的操作他變成是個案之一這是一種可能性第二種可能性是如當時他自己的陳述的因為他對於想往台灣的自由他要來這邊投奔自由當然這是第二種可能性高嗎"},{"start":10618.595,"end":10643.11,"text":"因為我們本身並沒有調查權那必須要有檢方在更抽絲剝繭的來收集相關的證據那另外可能也要注意到的是我們也有相關的機證剛剛海巡署也提到了因為雷達對於它的航機都有相關的掌握那還要再配合到它自述的相關的證詞比如說它是從哪個地方出發那回溯它的數位以及海巡署的雷達回放也都要"},{"start":10643.61,"end":10646.112,"text":"美國要把台灣海峽打造成無人地獄,這個可能性高不高?"},{"start":10671.215,"end":10693.51,"text":"剛剛進來會場也有媒體在關注這件事那國安局來講對於國外的相關的政府部門或機構有對台海情勢的研判或各種預案的推演我們都予以尊重那他反映的是國際社會對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高這個我馬上想到一個老公不會打飛彈就好了嗎?飛彈難道不可以打嗎?"},{"start":10695.172,"end":10713.26,"text":"對阿,各種劇本都有,但這還是有涉及到中共的政治目的,它政治目的是甚麼,那才會來有各種的犯台的方案的推動可是如果這樣子,美國這樣子,那麼緊張說把台灣現在變成無人地獄的話,我都很怕說台灣打變無人地獄喔"},{"start":10714.1,"end":10736.687,"text":"對,他的意思,無人地獄應該是說會增加中共在渡海過程當中的戰爭成本他不用渡海啊,飛彈啊,不是對,他是針對這個場景,他是針對假如說有渡海的相關的犯台方案的話只防渡海,不防飛彈,就是這個意思沒有,各種,他只是提到其中的方案之一最後一個,我們的委員,將軍陳永康部長公開說了"},{"start":10738.211,"end":10760.022,"text":"其實重點都不在兩岸不用擔心不用去講台灣能撐多久一旦打戰48小時以內能不能恢復電力你國安局做過推演沒有對對於那個有沒有有能源的安全跟能源的韌性不是就退演而已這個部分48小時以內恢復人員恢復供電恢復醫療有沒有可能"},{"start":10760.424,"end":10768.808,"text":"有跨部會的機制在協調那我們有從國安的角度來提供給目的事業主管機關來參考指的是經濟部這個48小時可不可能啊要讓我們安心啊對我們會全力的來強化台灣的相關的"},{"start":10777.132,"end":10795.678,"text":"我問你都不答有些不是歸我國安局的業管報告委員那些方案是由你國安局統合啊沒有沒有我們是應邀來參加跨部會的協調那提供的是相關的可能樣態還有情報的分享給事業主管機關來做相關你應該有這樣的情報啊一旦打戰台灣的電能不能撐48小時應該有這個資料怎麼沒有呢"},{"start":10799.559,"end":10818.247,"text":"對,所以我是認為說應該要由經濟部來對外說明,我們不應該來越處代跑來替他做這方面的陳述你已經有答案了嘛,對不對?對,大概,我們大概都有做過相關的討論和推演對嘛,所以你這裡不答,我的問題就是,就是我剛剛跟你講的,人很帥,口才很好,講幾步不知道在講什麼,這樣,這是我對國安局長的一個評價沒有,我們要嚴守我們的憤記,我們要尊重其他主管機關的權責"},{"start":10828.471,"end":10845.021,"text":"來 立法院這裡要講實話啊有你剛剛已經跟我吃下去要講了對 有做過相關推演還是沒講 你還是沒講啊對 有做過相關推演但詳細的狀況要由主管單位來說明因為他的數字也許不斷地在變動當中我怕我提供的也許不是最新的數字請委員可以理解不理解啊好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10852.365,"end":10866.924,"text":"謝謝賴委員國安其實應該要跟國人做相關的報告因為即使是有不同的數據資料它也是現階段國安局應該是掌握最及時的"},{"start":10867.625,"end":10880.228,"text":"那這一個部分因為我們開委員會還是希望國安局可以提供相關的資料讓國人更清楚因為如果說我們是處在危險之中我們應該怎麼樣的應處這個應該也要知道以921大地震來說48小時要把它恢復老實說很困難我們歷經921大地震的時候我們的電力是經過很多天才恢復的"},{"start":10893.03,"end":10913.104,"text":"所以這個部分我們還是希望就整體的國安的一個狀況現況還有未來的一個處置的作為都應該要及時的讓全民知道也讓立法院知道謝謝接下來請羅明財委員羅明財羅明財委員不在請李昆城委員上台質詢"},{"start":10923.635,"end":10930.74,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請國安局的蔡局長還有海巡署的謝副署長請蔡局長還有謝副署長"},{"start":10934.363,"end":10963.892,"text":"好 謝謝主席 李委員好 局長好剛剛我聽到說這個針對中國快艇長驅直入淡水河口這件事情昨天國安會有開過會議是不是有開 有開那有沒有什麼會議的結論可以公開跟大家講因為那個會議是有列密等所以我不方便轉述會議的內容但是會議的討論重點有針對怎麼樣來釐清相關的案情那以及後續我們在海防或邊境的安全上有沒有要精進的作為那都有做相關的討論有說就公開的部分"},{"start":10964.432,"end":10985.067,"text":"因為現在大家就在關心就是說一艘快艇可以從中國的這個什麼福州的寧德港就這樣長驅直入就進來我們淡水河口這個是何等大事啊那所以我才問說這個國安單位有沒有做這件事情那這個發生了兩三天了有沒有什麼樣的一個公開說明可以讓這個全民來放心的"},{"start":10986.13,"end":11009.212,"text":"對,在相關的精進作為的部分有特別提到未來的一個通報的機制的精進那另外可能對於一些海空狀況的一個監偵的設備可能也可以再有更一步的提升好,我講幾個時序表啦,那海巡署也在這邊6月8號這個軟性男子架快艇從中國的福州寧德港出發有知道他大概出發的時間是哪時候嗎?"},{"start":11010.816,"end":11014.579,"text":"總共航行12小時,在6月9日早上11點10分靠港,所以應該是6月8日凌晨的時候。總共我們預判是12個小時。"},{"start":11029.591,"end":11051.263,"text":"那6月9號這個快艇在通過12海里的時候大概是6月9號的哪時候有掌握到嗎?我們這個因為小艇規定的話是在3海里偵測到我們在9點44分在6海里就偵測到了那所以通過我們領海12海里的時候我們沒有任何的這個雷達或是怎麼樣的一個裝置可以偵測到我們雷達是偵測我們是近岸雷達"},{"start":11051.843,"end":11070.414,"text":"因為它設置的高度還要反射波的問題一般來講是12海里可以監測的到那這個小艇的話一般來講3海里偵測到我們這個樣子6海里就抓到那以後大家就他們就派小艇過來就好了但是6海里我們看到之後如果9點44分我的意思是說到12海里到我們臨海的時候我們完全偵測不到嘛如果它是快艇的話"},{"start":11070.834,"end":11083.413,"text":"是偵測的到他有光點是忽明誤暗這個時候雷超手依規定就要盯著這張雷超手你講的是6海里還是12海里12海里就看得到12海里就看得到了但6海里的時候是確定確定是有光點所以12海里的時候我們的雷達手沒有看到"},{"start":11083.976,"end":11108.992,"text":"有看到它是要,沒辦法確定是一個漁船,因為它光點是忽明忽暗,比較小,到6點確定。好,那6海里的時候9點44分,6海里的時候有被偵測到了。標定雷達編號,確定。但是還是沒有,沒辦法辨識它是屬於我們的還是屬於中國的。是,只有光點。光點。是。那等於到6海里囉。是。那9點52的時候,3海里,那我們是只有加強監控沒有實際的攔截的行為嗎?"},{"start":11111.026,"end":11135.693,"text":"一規定在六海里發現之後就要通報並施威脅程度派艦艇攔截登艦所以他六海里的時候有通報嗎他有通報安檢所跟守望哨可是沒有通報海巡隊的西方區通報海巡隊的線上艇或預備艇出來攔截跟登艦這個是缺失到三海里了我們要慢慢推進了10點19分的時候靠近漁人碼頭"},{"start":11138.334,"end":11163.63,"text":"巴黎的守望哨採用這個望遠鏡目視用目視來看說是不是我們的漁船我是覺得已經到了淡水河已經到了漁人碼頭了我們採用目視來判斷12海里你說有光點不知道6海里的時候有偵測到但是也不確定到底是屬於中國還是屬於我們的然後3海里的時候加強監控沒有實際去攔阻也都沒有到了漁人碼頭了已經到了漁人碼頭了用這個望遠鏡目視"},{"start":11168.51,"end":11180.082,"text":"這已經到了現在已經2024年了我們還用望遠鏡來目視說是不是我國的漁船所以這個案子我們檢討有兩個缺失第一個9點44分利用海裡偵測到不明光點確定是漁船確定是傳播的話應該因為不確定應該是要派艦艇過去辨別跟登檢"},{"start":11186.331,"end":11186.351,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":11206.594,"end":11211.016,"text":"你們是遲到了這個10點25分他是跟我們的交通船擦撞之後然後呢是杜倫業者去報案我們才知道這件事情的啊"},{"start":11235.69,"end":11239.832,"text":"巴黎首望哨船已經確定這艘船不是我們國際漁船是10點20"},{"start":11253.839,"end":11272.704,"text":"那剛才講的順豐122交通船是10點25分報案10點25分報案所以一直在監控中但是就是沒有立即派人員有疏失啦我認為設備也要再精進啦那我再問一下我們的漢光38號演習漢光38號演習以台北港淡水河口是防禦的重要的據點"},{"start":11273.724,"end":11289.595,"text":"他說淡水河如果遭過共軍的攻陷的話我們要怎麼去應備是漢光38號演習然後看漢光39號演習39號演習呢也是以這個淡水河口兩岸大規模軍演下一張圖這個都是38漢光38漢光39就是跟他進來的路徑是一樣的啊對不對"},{"start":11296.977,"end":11304.474,"text":"那我們38、39都已經演習過了結果你讓一艘快艇長驅直入就到了淡水河口那請問一下那這應該是問國安局長漢光40號演習勒"},{"start":11308.409,"end":11334.486,"text":"這部分應該國防部已經有在針對演習的科目有做相關的規劃我認為啦這個漢光38、39都特別以這個淡水河口就是說如果共軍長驅直入到淡水河口的時候你要去怎麼殲滅如果沒有殲滅的話長驅直入就到中蘇就可能到台北了欸對不對還演練過說如果關渡大橋可以把它炸掉都有這個設想嘛那結果一艘快艇"},{"start":11336.26,"end":11356.586,"text":"我是不好意思講一稍快點就把我們漢光38號、39號演習這個暴露出來的缺點在哪裡啦所以我認為說他雖然這是目前看起來是個人傷害性還不大但是對我們國軍、對我們海巡我路線極強這真的是要檢討因為一稍快點就把我們過去這個漢光38、39號、30、40號演習是7月份開始嘛"},{"start":11364.915,"end":11365.536,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝局長,謝謝副處長,謝謝主席好,謝謝"},{"start":11393.901,"end":11396.824,"text":"接下來請汪小玲委員上台質詢有請蔡局長請蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":11421.058,"end":11434.672,"text":"蔡主席蔡局長好我想今天大家都非常關心有關於這個大陸的快艇紅金號9號的時候上午闖進淡水路船頭的靠岸事件那其實從這個事件裡面凸顯出"},{"start":11437.034,"end":11461.546,"text":"整個國安確實出現了重大的漏洞還不僅只是海巡署的問題那麼這些年來其實大陸偷渡客的事件屢見不鮮雖然說跟30年前相比偷渡客的人數已經大幅的下降對,沒有增加對,沒有增加那當然有可能也是因為疫情之後其實台灣這裡看起來也無利可圖啦所以這個偷渡客的數量就減少"},{"start":11464.087,"end":11464.807,"text":"對岸的偷渡客來講從去年到現在大概有18件"},{"start":11493.464,"end":11515.001,"text":"那其中有兩件就是間接到臺灣本島的水域跟港口一件是在中部地區那一件是在這兩天發生的淡水地區那就整體的偷渡客的相關的數據來講剛剛跟委員有提到數據並沒有大量的增加過去這6年大概偷渡客的數量有1456元那其中最大量的來源還是在於"},{"start":11515.942,"end":11517.423,"text":"雖然說大陸的地方,大陸的偷渡客"},{"start":11536.917,"end":11537.798,"text":"對,委員剛剛提到一個很好的問題就是說對於剛剛過去十幾件、十八件中國偷渡客的案例"},{"start":11558.331,"end":11570.626,"text":"那就國安單位來講我們有一個一個去了解到他們對於調查過程當中的說辭除了中國的大陸的偷渡客之外其他的東南亞偷渡客的部分呢你們都沒有都有都有這個只要有偷渡客進來的話一來在相關單位進行的行政調查查之後都移送到警方來進行偵辦"},{"start":11577.794,"end":11606.286,"text":"所以檢方也會針對他的一個範型看有沒有違反入出境管理法或相關的國安法規是了解不過就是說從這個實際的數據來看看起來我覺得我們這裡的掌控可能還不是很好那麼否則的話我們也不會有這麼多的偷渡客還是會來台灣所以我希望說國安局在這方面未來在通知的掌控方面還是要加強那接下來我想請教一個問題也是前幾天在新聞上面有看到沈博洋委員說"},{"start":11607.546,"end":11618.496,"text":"村里長和立法委員、大學教授是中共的第五大中隊是會被中共滲透的高風險人士請問,局長您同意這個說法嗎?"},{"start":11620.845,"end":11640.305,"text":"對 這個問題剛剛也有其他的委員在提問那基本上來講我想對於委員們有這方面的討論我們都尊重那但是在數據上我剛剛也有做一些說明就管單位來講我們在看所謂的共諜案的偵辦我們必須要有法律的依據針對我們的管法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件"},{"start":11640.845,"end":11659.516,"text":"假如有證據的話,我們才能夠移送到檢查機關或調查機關來進行偵犯。好,了解。那請問一下,你們通常來講啟動的調查的標準是什麼?如果說是違反反滲透法或是你們講的違反國安法,是這些上面這些人士他們可能在大陸有定居,有親友在大陸定居、經商或是常常去大陸參訪,接受大陸的招待?"},{"start":11662.577,"end":11679.747,"text":"這個部分就是對於兩岸比較正常和合法的一個交往活動我們都尊重也不會有任何的意見就國安單位來講我們比較注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規舉例來講依照國安法跟反滲透法主要的有包括發展組織主要的有可能包括有借選的活動"},{"start":11680.287,"end":11697.216,"text":"若是他有去干預到投票或集會遊行．簡單來說就是說還是可以請局長在這邊幫我們澄清一下就你們現在目前國安局所調查的案件當中基本上沒有什麼是有涉及到大學教授的案子立委的案子有嗎"},{"start":11698.637,"end":11707.447,"text":"從去年到現在,偵辦有81件的案子,其中被起訴的有39案,那主要涉及到的還是簽密,那現在主要的涉及到的這幾個案子,主要的還是在於簽密,特別是涉及到對於軍中資訊的簽密,第二個就是借選。"},{"start":11719.659,"end":11743.574,"text":"有關於金選案子,看起來很多的起訴案子,一種是不起訴,另外一種是判決確定。有31件起訴,去年到現在31件起訴。但是通常來講,到最後被判決確定有罪的,這個比例是非常之低。接下來我想請問一下有關於前立委趙天麟的案子,你們現在的情況怎麼樣?你們在這個新聞媒體爆發之前,你們是不是就已經有相關情資?"},{"start":11745.109,"end":11763.798,"text":"因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我們會提供在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情"},{"start":11764.819,"end":11773.668,"text":"這個案子我們並沒有在事前有了解到這位委員有這樣的交往的狀況對,但我們對於委員的個人交友狀況我們一般不會特別去針對哪個委員的個人交友狀況來進行政治偵訪"},{"start":11781.676,"end":11798.57,"text":"交友對象是很特殊的啊所以我必須說我覺得國安局在這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題然後最後我想要再問局長的就是因為最近有消息傳出說可能會有政黨團體會針對立法院即將進行的復議案的表決的這個事情那會發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎"},{"start":11809.358,"end":11833.376,"text":"假如有任何的那個陳抗情資的話我們都會進行通報所以你們現在都還沒有接獲任何的都還沒開始了解相關的情資嗎因為我們一般人我們現在都知道了有在注意但是我們要注意的是他是不是有啟動他的一個相關的動員的機制那假如有的話我們就會進行通報這包括警政署還有相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊來"},{"start":11834.036,"end":11837.78,"text":"我希望你們能夠好好的掌握這個相關事情的發展畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構我們的尊嚴和安全必需要"},{"start":11859.48,"end":11862.162,"text":"但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低在代表有濫訴的可能性"},{"start":11889.909,"end":11912.871,"text":"我們接下來請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝麻煩請國安局蔡局長跟海巡署卸副署長請蔡局長還有卸副署長好 謝主席 洪委員好局長 署長"},{"start":11914.059,"end":11933.572,"text":"淡水河口是本席的選區我一直強調說我們第一線的海巡同仁其實非常的辛苦我們也都理解但是在這件事情上面其實非常離譜會有幾個狀況就是說讓大家覺得是說第一時間看到海巡的新聞稿跟相關的回應是說有全程掌握"},{"start":11934.372,"end":11955.442,"text":"有立即逮捕但後來發覺不是這麼回事但我想先請教的是現在海巡掌握說這一個陸籍男子他承認解放軍海軍還是艦艇的艇長的一個身份導致國內也會擔心說是不是有國安的破口那我現在國安的系統有沒有來介入調查"},{"start":11955.822,"end":11971.87,"text":"有,我們有在了解當然已經在司法正辦了但是在過程當中特別他涉及到在對岸的身份以及過去有沒有一些活動的足跡以及跟中共的官方或軍方有沒有一些連結我們會來進行勾連好,那什麼時候可以對外跟國人說明"},{"start":11973.131,"end":11994.748,"text":"這是一個單一個案還是這是一個有計劃性的預謀犯案甚至有可能他背後有沒有人指使對我們剛剛在跟賴司法委員說明的時候也提到了各種可能性都有有可能是有計劃性的有官方的主導有可能是他個人行為那這部分我們要尊重檢查機關的調查的狀況那需要我們提供相關的情資我們會來配合辦理"},{"start":11995.589,"end":12022.105,"text":"所以國安單位不會主動的跟國人說明因為國人現在已經這是一個重大事件端午連假的時候突然間爆發然後昨天媒體頭版頭到今天大家也都關注那我想請教的是國人也會擔心這是單一個案還是有預謀性這是過去有沒有發生這樣的一個狀況大家現在看起來是第一例但是以現在的鬆散的程度我真的已經不敢想說是不是第一例"},{"start":12023.055,"end":12045.091,"text":"所以局長你覺得沒有必要讓國人比較安心的了解這部分還在查證過程當中尤其他涉及到他在中國內部的身份跟活動這要花點時間來了解我們會透過我們的國安團隊多久時間還是你覺得是說到下個禮拜可能有新的議題出來之後國人忘了這件事情就傳過水無痕都不會我們都還會開專案的會議來針對這個個案來討論"},{"start":12048.513,"end":12070.8,"text":"那是那如果說針對專案個案針對這個個案的部分那有沒有必要讓國人瞭解是說他到底是什麼情況對大概有幾個部分第一部分當然會針對我們想要釐清的要不要說明針對我們想要釐清的重點會請國安單位包括本局11個單位來進行情報的分工跟收集那會怎麼回來之後那假如檢察機關有需要的話我們會提供給檢察機關來參用"},{"start":12073.277,"end":12084.384,"text":"是嗎?但局長你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊本席現在是說是全國大家都華人也關注的一個重點但是國安單位瞭解了可是到最後你們不說明給檢調那檢調如果說又講說這偵查不公開或是說你又拖了三個月半年"},{"start":12091.121,"end":12092.682,"text":"這個艦艇的艇長的身份是海巡署這邊主動揭露的嗎?"},{"start":12114.908,"end":12140.345,"text":"初步遵循的話他是自己承認是那個中共海軍的少校是,所以你們就沒有檢調單位的這樣的一個狀況你們就可以說明是,但是我們不像剛剛我們國安局局長講是說不管怎麼樣我們可以調查釐清但是都要尊重檢調單位所以你們會再進一步什麼時候會了解他的意圖之後來跟國人說明"},{"start":12142.368,"end":12163.878,"text":"跟委員報告現在自營地緣署正在偵辦中那當然有涉及到偵查不公開相關細節是目前沒辦法對外說明那我們講剛剛你講啦這一個人他主動承認他以前是少校的身份這也是我們海巡之後在對媒體說的嘛那是啊這就沒有偵查不公開的問題我們這部分只講大方向而已"},{"start":12167.661,"end":12190.671,"text":"更重要的是來謝副署長本席覺得最沒有辦法接受的地方是因為業者我之後也有跟業者來了解你的新聞稿以及第一時間告訴我們是什麼是這一個人當他停到碼頭的時候在旁等待的海巡人員立即把這個男子給逮捕"},{"start":12191.673,"end":12216.195,"text":"海巡人員嚴正以待當這一個人的快艇靠岸之後立即逮人這是你們第一時間的說法結果沒想到原來是這一個擦撞到交通船之後業者他上岸業者來問然後業者覺得他怪怪的業者主動打電話而且據本期了解業者第一通電話本來還不是打給海巡署對不對"},{"start":12219.008,"end":12243.587,"text":"跟委員報告我們接到電話184 10點54分10點54接到委員跟委員報告喔是啊業者跟本席透露的消息是說他第一通電話其實打給的是我們的警察單位因為業者會覺得是說根本沒有想過說怎麼會有那麼離譜的事情是由一個偷渡客上岸之後能夠在岸上趴趴走或是他坐他的船"},{"start":12244.588,"end":12273.434,"text":"所以第一個時間想的是說應該是我們警務單位警務單位在跟他建議是說趕快應該要通報海巡署所以業者打118118完之後半個小時後海巡人員才到現場把他也逮捕而且這半個小時的過程如果不是業者很負責任的或是有這種國家意識或是社會責任感盡可能的來留住這一個人這人可能早就跑掉了"},{"start":12274.226,"end":12289.42,"text":"委員跟委員釐清一下我們10點20分巴黎守望哨他就發現這艘船不是國籍船是但是重點是業者不清楚嘛是10點54分你們也沒有通報業者業者是被撞到之後他的船的船尾被撞到被插撞"},{"start":12290.02,"end":12316.516,"text":"然後他把那個人留下來聽他的口音不是我們本國籍的人但是覺得說奇怪照理講不可能有偷渡客可以來我們河口內嘛也因此才會覺得是說他可能是我們相關治安問題結果後來打給海巡署海巡署才半個小時後才到場那這半個小時的空窗期其實是有賴業者用國家意識用社會責任來把那個人留在那邊欸"},{"start":12317.276,"end":12339.597,"text":"各位媒體因為這一艘船陸行快艇它是在11點10分才靠岸因為擦撞之後在現場理論所以11點10分擦撞11點10分才到渡船碼頭那邊靠岸那這個時候11點10分我們同意在這邊所以我現在講的就是這一件問題會讓大家國人沒有辦法接受是兩個部分第一擦撞你們即使講說全程監控"},{"start":12340.518,"end":12361.466,"text":"但是那差狀有半個小時的理論的狀況而半小時的理論狀況如果說我們以一般在路上有發生車禍肇事逃逸有沒有是那個人跑掉今天好家在是什麼是這一個人有被我們逮捕所以我們才可以了解說他背後有什麼樣身份以及等等後續的狀況如果今天那個人就是肇事逃逸了"},{"start":12363.151,"end":12384.431,"text":"現在大家都睡不著了第二為什麼第一時間海巡居然會去告訴我們是告訴國人說在旁等待的海巡人員立即將這個男子逮捕說海巡人員嚴正以待靠岸之後立即逮人這分明跟現實狀況有出路啊所以你覺得現在我們懲處只懲處這10個人是不是"},{"start":12387.305,"end":12409.748,"text":"目前分署長到雷超首四位還會不會再繼續針對這個個案我現在有看到新聞報導是你的名字啊你的名字表示海巡人員嚴陣以待等快艇靠岸立即逮人你的名字講說船停靠碼頭在旁等待的海巡人員立即將這個男子給逮捕"},{"start":12410.409,"end":12418.484,"text":"換言之你們是不是在第一時間你們上期場觀也接收到不對的一個資訊還是說你們明明知道正確的資訊但是你們想要美化"},{"start":12419.551,"end":12423.953,"text":"11點10分這一艘快艇靠駁在渡船碼頭我們通常一車4人同時到現場所以11點10分是逮捕我們也有錄影帶這邊11點10分那這艘船是在11點10分靠駁碼頭剛才委員提醒的"},{"start":12442.822,"end":12443.923,"text":"但是通報的時間是不是比業者都還要來得晚現在狀況就是"},{"start":12461.428,"end":12489.011,"text":"副署長本席現在只講兩點點出來因為本席有跟業者通過電話也確實明白說當天的狀況業者他們很低調是因為他們覺得說這是無望之災但是重點在於是說我們怎麼會放任一個偷渡客一個不知道他目的為何的人進入到我們的河口並且上岸來做相關甚至還有媒體報導我不知道你們有沒有看到還有更離譜的是這一個男子上岸然後跟別人借電話打"},{"start":12490.748,"end":12517.486,"text":"有沒有這樣的狀況?我們收到的資訊就是第11屆11點10分靠港我們同仁在現場是首長帶著總共有4個人在現場當場白骨所以副署長我覺得在這件事情上面我們在深度了解深度了解然後還有就是是不是這一波這樣子就結束了然後還有最重要的是他的目的到底為何?國安局如果說沒有辦法告訴國人你適時的在"},{"start":12518.507,"end":12518.887,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":12556.032,"end":12557.834,"text":"兩位好前一陣子發生讓人駭人聽聞的事情大規模"},{"start":12583.12,"end":12606.627,"text":"不僅僅是個資,而且是通訊資料竟然被民進黨、我們執政黨的高層所掌握大家都在追問一件事情這位民進黨的高層到底是從哪裡取得這些資料那這件事情NCC目前了解的進度是什麼?可不可以請副主委說明一下?因為"},{"start":12608.039,"end":12619.765,"text":"這些有關於涉及到電信業者所掌握到的個人資料基本上面的行政檢查跟保護是屬於NCC主管的沒有錯吧"},{"start":12620.885,"end":12650.251,"text":"委員我們是按照那個各執法第22條我們在113年5月30號有請三大電信業者到會裡面來了解行政檢查行政調查那業者是跟我們的陳述意見都是沒有任何以任無任何私人企業政府機關或特定政黨人士跟該公司接洽有關於侵擾行動的人流資訊那昨天我們在請三大電信業者來"},{"start":12655.495,"end":12663.983,"text":"來開會去識別化這件事情要對這個去識別化的認證標準的程序要趕快導入先跟委員這樣報告"},{"start":12666.041,"end":12688.279,"text":"所以結論以主管機關的立場來講到目前還是沒有掌握這位民進黨高層他是怎麼取得這些資訊的嗎對不對電信跟委員報告所有電信三個電信業者的報告是說他們沒有跟特定的政黨人士有接觸也沒有提供青鳥行動的相關的人流輪廓資訊"},{"start":12689.039,"end":12716.968,"text":"所以你們現在處理的只有三個電信業者嗎?未來我們會對一定規模的電信事業也會再去了解因為早上有委員提到這件事情像早上委員提到的四方電信我們也會去調查了解對啊我今天早上看徐曉新委員的質詢我看了真的是匪夷所思按照徐委員他質詢跟掌握到吹哨者所提供的內容"},{"start":12718.212,"end":12741.18,"text":"5月17號下午這位民進黨的高層之所以可以在節目上面大放厥詞啊原來是5月27號上午在民進黨中央黨部就有開會啊他是聽有人報告才得到這個資訊啊那這個清查的範圍恐怕要擴大囉不是只有王逸川個人喔"},{"start":12742.95,"end":12769.73,"text":"因為他是坐在那邊聽別的民進黨的一級主管在那邊報告拿著四方電訊給他們的資料在那邊進行報告大家全部都有聽到現在這個風波是越來越大要查的可能不是只有王玉川個人啊而是所有參與那個會議的人是不是都聽到了這些資訊了由誰報告的"},{"start":12774.043,"end":12803.057,"text":"這個報告的內容從哪裡來的是不是如同徐委員所收到的檢舉一樣是從四方電訊所提供的這些事情全部都要徹查到底啊NCC會不會去查報委員我剛才已經有講過我們會對一定規模的電信事業都會去調查了解相關的當事人會不會進行行政調查報委員我們會對電信事業的部分好來我們具體的來看嘛"},{"start":12804.215,"end":12831.769,"text":"中華電信從民進黨執政了以後一片綠油油阿包括了大數據中心的總監李承偉包括了董事長郭水義還有四方電訊的董事長吳彥宏吳彥宏是民進黨新潮流的大將阿非常會酬庸阿直接酬庸到四方電訊裡面阿去當董事長"},{"start":12833.688,"end":12858.948,"text":"請教一下中華電信四方電信他們的業務範圍有包括語情監控嗎來請教報告委員就了解四方電信的主要業務還是IDC跟那個上網業務對阿他有做語情監控的業務嗎你們是最大的股東阿董事長是你們任命的阿你應該很清楚阿四方電信有在幹這種事情嗎"},{"start":12860.475,"end":12860.495,"text":"對﹖好"},{"start":12878.476,"end":12906.266,"text":"你說的沒有錯啊他揭露公開的資訊項目裡面都沒有做什麼都沒有在做語情監控但我看了很奇怪他對於特定的對象、特定的關係是會去做語情監控分析的我為什麼這樣講?來看一下釋放電訊2018年4月的時候取得台南市政府民政局107年網路語情監測分析服務案"},{"start":12907.691,"end":12927.483,"text":"提供服務的對象是台南市政府台南市政府那時候的發包這個標案出去的人是誰陳忠彥陳忠彥另外一個民進黨新潮流的大將陳忠彥要做的網路語情分析結果四方電訊幫他做"},{"start":12929.677,"end":12954.07,"text":"這不在他們公司本來的業務範圍內那大家看了會很擔心啊四方電訊手上掌握那麼多data那麼多主機那麼多儲存的資料他拿什麼資料啊去做這個網路語情監測的分析而且四方電訊的吳彥宏跟這個陳忠彥都是民進黨同一個派系的"},{"start":12958.288,"end":12981.137,"text":"民進黨特別的派系拿公帑要釋放電訊幫他們去做網路監測分析接下來2021年我們針對疫調指揮中心所做的那套系統主席也是陳宗彥"},{"start":12982.998,"end":12996.873,"text":"參與的也有中華電信來我問一下中華電信這個系統現在是不是已經百分之百徹底移除了是好你們在移除的過程當中有誰負責監督這個系統的移除"},{"start":12997.814,"end":13018.231,"text":"相關的事項包括主管機關都會做相關的監督跟查證來請NCC確保我們確實移除報告委員這個分做兩個部分這個系統它已經移除第二個裡面的個資也移除我們的平台處有去查核好你們查核的對象是誰"},{"start":13020.526,"end":13046.212,"text":"報告委員我們在那個確定那個指揮中心解編以後我們就立即在同一月的月底前就完成查核那我們查核對象是五那個因為參與這個疫調平台是五大當時是五家電信行動電信事業我們都有到他們的就是機房跟確保他們刪除而且都有請他們留下log記錄然後確定刪除的記錄這套系統"},{"start":13048.613,"end":13072.424,"text":"除了五大電信業者以外,還有沒有人有管道可以取得?報告委員,這個系統是因為電信事業它是一個封閉的網路沒有其他的業者可以獲得所以確定這個已經移除了嗎?如果有人手上還有這套系統的話,是不是一定是違法的?"},{"start":13073.985,"end":13076.646,"text":"NCC有沒有對四方電訊辦理過各自行政檢查?從過去到現在?"},{"start":13098.791,"end":13103.816,"text":"從過去到現在都沒有?他是不是應該要接受行政檢查的對象?分兩個部分嘛 第一個"},{"start":13109.586,"end":13128.551,"text":"過去他手上長有這些個資：你們有沒有辦過行政檢查嗎?包委員這個部分就是我們按照個資法22條就是有一定規模以上的電信事業才會去檢查所以四方電信規模還不夠大就對了他沒有他沒有負責因為一定規模比如說他擁有的寬頻的用戶有多少"},{"start":13128.951,"end":13130.852,"text":"我希望齁你們接下來所做的行政檢查來你看一下各自法22條"},{"start":13149.446,"end":13165.898,"text":"你們做行政檢查的手段各支法給你們很多授權嘛對你應該看得到吧可以去沒入可違證據的個人資料或檔案嘛可以扣留或複製嘛那個不是把他叫來問一問他說沒有就說沒有嘛"},{"start":13167.538,"end":13183.546,"text":"現場該去做的查核就要去做查核嘛因為這件事情非同小可啊這件事情非同小可啊所有參與那個會議的人我希望啊今天承辦案件的檢察官在立法院裡面所做的質詢全部都是公開資訊啊"},{"start":13184.997,"end":13201.671,"text":"我希望承辦案件的檢察官不要高高舉起輕輕放下人叫來問一問說沒事就沒事NCC也是一樣你們既然在目前各執法裡面賦予你們這樣檢查的權限就要切實去檢查"},{"start":13202.572,"end":13230.381,"text":"這涉及到大規模國家甚至政黨藉由非法取得的資料對人民所進行的監控一定要徹查到底啊NCC可不可以本於獨立機關的權責這件事情要查清楚啊給大家一個交代可以嗎會 謝委員的指導好好 謝謝這個受到很大的關注我們請相關單位NCC、中華電信都可以盡速處理謝謝接下來請"},{"start":13232.535,"end":13237.725,"text":"吳宗憲委員．吳宗憲、吳宗憲委員不在．請鄭振淺、鄭振淺、鄭振淺委員不在．請謝依鳳、謝依鳳、謝依鳳委員不在．請張祺凱委員上台諮詢"},{"start":13259.728,"end":13266.759,"text":"請蔡局長、NCC的翁副職委、中華電信的林副總經理"},{"start":13288.761,"end":13310.008,"text":"局長你現在這個國安應該很擔心你看一方面是陸船直接開進了這個淡水了另外一方面有執政黨的中央政策會的執行長可能像老大哥一樣監控了我們的臺灣的民眾包括小草跟青鳥另外還有執政黨的立法委員說要對我們臺灣幾十萬的"},{"start":13313.286,"end":13338.312,"text":"幾十萬的高風險勤的人,包括陸配,要做監控你就是這麼煩惱,我先問你一個問題古歷雄啊,我們國防部長先說啊,他說要行使這個自衛權的條件是什麼?共軍,只要是共軍侵入我們十二海裡的領空或者是領海,結果造成這個事情快艇都開進來了,都直接衝到淡水上面去啦,淡水河啦"},{"start":13340.029,"end":13353.251,"text":"我們有行使我們的智慧權嗎?我們有完全的掌握有逮捕人嗎?裡面是不是漏洞百出?搞不清為止三個版本啊還多不起來啊我們國安是不是出了一個很大的漏洞?"},{"start":13353.935,"end":13377.485,"text":"對,海巡這部分有做一些查處的動作那也有釐清整個案情過程當中還有哪些疑點要進一步的來進行調查不只是責任要追究,這個漏洞要趕快補起來,趕快剝剖吧第二個我要談的是昨天王逸川已經被別檢已經約談了他講的是什麼有啊,他說他叫主流去比對啊那就有資料啊剛才國參問一個問題"},{"start":13380.293,"end":13402.25,"text":"市方電信是中華電信的關係企業,對不對?他剛拿出來的,鐵錚錚的,台南市政府他承攬了台南市政府的業務,我再給大家看一張他還承攬了蔡英文總統的數據分析,看這個大家看一下為一百五十年的總統大選開始蔡英文選總統的時候,輿情監測"},{"start":13409.463,"end":13435.368,"text":"還有移情分析費用到了109年還有三筆做什麼?數據的費用數據的分析分析分析這個數據的費用我要問局長跟中華電信四方是中華電信的關係企業一方面我們的立委從習巧芯到黃國昌指正立例"},{"start":13437.759,"end":13460.737,"text":"王毅川的資料是他給的我現在更進一步給大家看蔡英文總統跟他也有業務上的交往現在是不是國安單位跟NCC要去查清楚好這部分可能還是要確認一下相關的所謂的業務有沒有涉及到他的資料是有沒有去識別化還是非去識別化這是一個第一個法律要件要釐清的但是因為"},{"start":13463.513,"end":13480.965,"text":"但是因為這個案子檢調已經在查,二來是國安局我們並沒有司法調查權那對於這個相關的資訊可能細節上可能中華電信這邊可以比較...NCC跟中華電信至少要做兩件事情第一你的一些data都在那個地方對不對?"},{"start":13482.079,"end":13498.663,"text":"這Data有沒有外流 這個應該查得你一直在搖頭你沒有去查怎麼知道他有沒有外流對不對 要不然第二個民眾一定有個疑問嘛那四方 四方跟人家業務 業務合作他明明沒這個業務啊他跟台南市政府也沒有這個業務啊他為什麼可以做這個事情資料從哪邊來"},{"start":13502.85,"end":13531.021,"text":"只有三家電信有這個資料嘛,對不對那現在關西碧順便掀起中華電信啊現在不是你搖頭耶這是一個客觀的事實啊,你想我去查啊是不是這樣?NCC要去查,檢調員要查那個有關於四方的假使電信服務的部分我們會去查還對OK,會進去嘛,來來,局長我再問你一個最近還有一個也是蠻嚴重的問題引起蠻大的恐慌的這陣動的立法委員、沈博洋"},{"start":13532.298,"end":13559.833,"text":"他直接挑戰你們,他是接受針訪的時候,他直接說他說國安局很難對國內人士做針訪他說台灣應該要一個應對中國的作戰中心對國內的高風險的高風險群要進行控管這兩個人裡面,有兩個叫你做控管的第一,他說你國安局那麼努力,可是"},{"start":13561.363,"end":13565.594,"text":"你對國內的某些可能會被滲透或者第五縱隊你是沒辦法做申訪嗎?"},{"start":13567.445,"end":13593.076,"text":"這部分剛剛早上黃蓮委員也有在關切我們做過相關的說明也就是說這幾年我們在國安團隊進行國安案件的偵辦非常的積極那去年到現在已經有偵辦了81個案件那檢方起訴有39個案件那這已經是歷來最大的數字你贊不贊成說台灣應該要有一個應對中國的作戰中心對國內的高風險群進行控管你有贊成這個意見嗎"},{"start":13593.916,"end":13607.166,"text":"我想委員對於一些怎麼樣來強化國安的一些討論或建議我們都尊重但是我要特別強調尊重現在引起那麼多人的恐慌你尊重喔國安局長對於這樣的一個要監控監控幾十萬人你是尊重的嗎"},{"start":13609.608,"end":13609.949,"text":"沈博洋講的高風險情"},{"start":13626.305,"end":13628.706,"text":"中共可能威脅在中國做生意﹚或者有蹊蹺在中國的人﹚包括陸配,38萬"},{"start":13656.198,"end":13679.423,"text":"所以不會影響、不會讓這些人引起恐慌嗎?我們在偵辦國安案件或共諜案一定要有法律的依據那這也是為什麼我們國安團隊在偵辦相關的案件要依照國安法跟反滲透法的法律要件來蒐證有的話才會移送檢調單位來偵辦那我們蒐證結果到底檢調單位特別是院方最後怎麼裁法這我們尊重司法的判決"},{"start":13679.983,"end":13706.102,"text":"局長裡面有一個很重要的點被點名是高風險的包括立法委員、傳理長、陸配就在台灣有這麼多人你怎麼讓這些人覺得他不是被欺負的有可能會被監控怎麼讓他們安心?不會,我剛剛跟委員說明就在這一部分我們的所有的偵辦國安案件都一定要有法律當基礎這就是我們民主法治國家最基本的標準黑熊協議是一個民間的這個機構他做一些民防的這個沒有什麼不同"},{"start":13707.096,"end":13730.927,"text":"可是他創辦人現任的立法委員也是執政黨不溫區男性第一名包括另外一個爭議性人物我們剛才在講的王逸川民進黨中央政策會執行長他們現在代表是什麼是執政黨的一個意念的一個表達嗎他不約而同裡面都提到什麼要監控人民的意圖跟儀式的作為這是不是一種民主倒退是不是一種白色恐怖"},{"start":13731.94,"end":13759.317,"text":"我們台灣以前經歷了白色恐怖之後現在要來一個綠色的恐怖嗎?歷史的教訓還不過嗎?國安局有責任讓全民是可以安心的國安局有相關的監控措施也不是不可以可是一定要得到可靠的情報對不對?有可靠的就像你說的有可靠的情報之後你才能夠針對某個個人或團體做監聽嘛可是現在不是啊"},{"start":13760.437,"end":13777.835,"text":"在民進黨裡面不管是王逸川講的或者是邢博安講的他是什麼他先把某個族群把他化成說是可能的敵人這個在民主國家裡面不是很危險荒謬的事嗎在自己的國家裡面去製造敵人把自己劃分出去錄片就有38萬人"},{"start":13780.339,"end":13806.33,"text":"局長,38萬的陸配現在是你們的監控對象嗎?沒有,我剛剛一直在強調的是,針對相關國安案件的偵辦,假如要涉及到有通訊監察的話,一定要走非常嚴謹的法律跟行政程序。國安局並不是發動單位,必須要由司法警察機關,包括警政署、縣警調有這樣的需求送到國安局,國安局進行審核,再由高等法院法官來進行。"},{"start":13807.751,"end":13820.505,"text":"透過今天這個執行讓所謂沈博洋講的高風險型的這些人能夠安心他不是會被侵犯是,國安正辦依照法律來依照法律來這是依照法律來這是一個第二個我們最後要強調的我們只要是愛台灣認同台灣的人都是台灣人"},{"start":13824.144,"end":13836.174,"text":"只要愛台灣、認同台灣人、恭喜台灣人不要在自己的國內再找敵人了不要再撕裂整個社會操作對立了國安局的任務非常重要好不好?團結民眾好不好?愛我們的台灣人謝謝接下來請羅志強委員上台諮詢"},{"start":13862.489,"end":13887.128,"text":"主席有請國安局、海委會、海巡署、法務部、NCC還有中華電信請以上單位就備巡台謝謝主席委員好局長我最近有一個感慨我突然有一個發現我們的國安戰略叫做對內天眼對外無眼我不知道"},{"start":13887.898,"end":13917.314,"text":"我們的局長應該是不認同這個我們這個國安戰略吧對不對沒有 我也說明一下好 說明一下對外就是無眼啦無眼之國啦海巡發生竟然發生陸艇以前的艇長欸 可以開著快艇長驅直路猶如不設防一樣衝到了我們的淡水碼頭請問我們的國安以及我們的國防跟海巡的眼睛長在哪裡啊"},{"start":13918.022,"end":13920.844,"text":"我講一個結果衝上來了沒有?進來了沒有?掌控他!更嚴重!眼睜睜看著他進來!我問局長"},{"start":13932.166,"end":13959.423,"text":"馬政府的時候中共軍機有越過海峽中線嗎?有沒有對時空環境不太一樣謝謝啦你們無能啦時空環境不一樣有時空環境不一樣來有越過有逼近24海浬林街區嗎?有沒有也時空環境不一樣我幫你講啦有到12海浬林海線嗎?有沒有時空環境不一樣對而且中共軍事共商現在非常厲害啦現在在你今天我們國安系統海巡眼皮底下欸"},{"start":13961.721,"end":13964.706,"text":"直接就衝到案房來啦到案上來啦"},{"start":13965.663,"end":13993.66,"text":"而且報告局長我們請海巡署一下我到現在搞不清楚海巡署你的說法可不可以一致一點三種版本海巡署記者會說六里發現陸艇為及時攔截燈檢但暗巡人員快速掌握延鎮以待快艇靠岸時逮人然後呢海巡署北部分署新聞稿是淡水渡船碼頭交通船擦撞業者報案"},{"start":13994.64,"end":14013.211,"text":"安檢所前往查看後逮人然後軟性嫌犯說法是他把快頂靠岸之後自己走上岸上請路過民眾打電話報案署長光你們自己單位就兩個版本不一樣到底哪個版本是真的啊ABC哪個真的啊那個跟委員報告我們"},{"start":14014.502,"end":14036.509,"text":"北部分署跟海軍發布的版本是一次的只不過是民眾賽10點54報案第一次有講所以軟信嫌犯的說法是錯的第二次我們沒有寫上去那跟委員報告實際是這樣我們9點44分雷達監控到之後第一時間要通報艦艇攔截他沒有通報接下來跟委員報告10點20我們首望上的研究發現"},{"start":14038.283,"end":14065.7,"text":"業者報案是10點54分我們在10點20分我告訴你基本上我也很欣賞你們反正已經全盤掌握就放人上岸就這樣就這麼簡單沒關係告訴你基本上你不要講說今天海巡前陣子發生無人機到哨所上面去丟放傳單結果呢說因為是鋼哨不是營區這也是我們政府的說法"},{"start":14067.527,"end":14087.455,"text":"對外阿 剛剛我們張祺凱說不要在對內找敵人啦我們國安站是對外放敵人啦任何的今天喊了這麼多的國防、國安措施對外就是無能兩個字來形容但是對內我非常欣賞我們的國安戰略阿我就要問一下中華電信阿中華電信"},{"start":14089.333,"end":14116.778,"text":"請問一下,四方今天到底掌握什麼資料?他的伺服器裡面有民眾的什麼樣的資料在裡面?跟你們報告,如果我之前的說明,四方他本身是我告訴你,他可以拿去做輿情監控,他就掌握,他的資料來源是哪裡?中華電信吧?報告委員,中華電信的資料一定是留在中華電信公司"},{"start":14117.574,"end":14127.295,"text":"一定留在中華電信公司啊那我問你吼今天我們前面剛才講為什麼講說你們今天來請國安局長我們今天就看到吼"},{"start":14128.69,"end":14149.899,"text":"從王毅川開始他能夠精確的掌握資料比如中華電信否認啦釋放進來你也否認啦可是招招攔的事實就是有一筆資料可以拿去做分析分析人流分析今天不同場域的政黨傾向的重疊度啊請問這樣的科技這樣的科證的工具我不知道我們的國安局有沒有掌握"},{"start":14150.738,"end":14172.858,"text":"這部份檢方已經在查辦了我想還是尊重司法單位好 我要問一下依照現行通保法規定避免國家安全遭受危害國安局移民署可以幫助對幫助境外敵對勢力進行通訊偵查對不對是那沈博洋說中共可能威脅在中國做生意或蹊蹺在中國人希望這些人在開戰時進行一些任務他認為這高風險群有幾十萬人"},{"start":14177.742,"end":14185.608,"text":"所以要管好,然後主張對這第五縱隊的高風險群來控管、增防,你認同嗎?你有沒有收到高層指示來監控這些高風險群?我們現在針對這些高風險群的監控,是什麼樣作為?"},{"start":14201.909,"end":14217.542,"text":"我們對陸森、陸配、台山會不會視為高風險群進行偵訪?現在有沒有視為高風險群進行偵訪?所以會不會把特別區隔出來作為高風險群?這個部分我剛剛一直在強調的是要由司法警察機關我問你嗎?有沒有?我不是講個案喔!我不是講個案喔!對"},{"start":14223.26,"end":14224.661,"text":"假如委員提到的這些身份的民眾他有涉入或是有涉及到"},{"start":14248.228,"end":14252.551,"text":"有沒有普遍性36萬有沒有你到現在連這個問題都不敢回答那我就嚴重懷疑你有你就是有監控36萬我這樣講你你接受嗎你有沒有監控36萬謝謝你直接回答就好了我告訴你為什麼不行"},{"start":14268.996,"end":14289.503,"text":"法律本來就是要...我跟委員講因為貴院通過的通保法強調的一種概念是在於最小侵害的原則這是我們依法...你不廢話我也知道我還需要你解釋是是這樣我講的就是你今天有沒有通案你已經告訴我答案就好啦我一樣就答案你沒有阿對啊依照案情來審核依照案情來審核依法行政謝謝謝謝你謝謝"},{"start":14292.796,"end":14319.304,"text":"那很簡單沈博洋就是廢話他要求是針對高風險群就是針對群別來進行監控我謝謝你今天蔡明彥說沒有啦然後接下來我要講喔我要講喔自由時報喔說喔這個也是沈博洋講喔如果沒有針對這些高風險群進行控管齁人別控管齁台灣就會完蛋啦"},{"start":14320.387,"end":14344.264,"text":"完蛋了沒?你們也沒有針對高風險群進行群別的控管啊?依照證據,偵辦相關案件依照相關的法律條件來進行偵辦你不要給我問A答B事實上就是這樣,事實上就是這樣你前面沒有針對群別做所謂的政治偵辦嗎?不會針對群別,我們依照的是案情那台灣完蛋了沒?依照案情台灣完蛋了沒?尊重委員相關的討論台灣完蛋了沒?台灣完蛋了沒?"},{"start":14347.739,"end":14352.144,"text":"台灣完蛋了沒答不出來你不敢走就審國衙嘛這麼簡單接下來我要講齁事實上齁我們會發現齁我們的科技偵查法裡面也有規範齁"},{"start":14360.236,"end":14382.257,"text":"就是為確保國家安全維護社會秩序制定本法那我想請問局長GPS定位追蹤、M化汽車定位、使用熱血象儀等科技偵查手段是不是未來就會使用在國安方面偵訪還是現在已經在使用中?就相關的偵訪手段來講我們並不是偵查單位那必須要看相關有司法警察象儀的單位來進行"},{"start":14384.506,"end":14404.572,"text":"我們沒有司法警察權在通訊監察方面針對所謂的通保法監聽結束之後所以換言之國安局相關的國家安全單位都不用做監聽就對了我講通保法監聽"},{"start":14407.566,"end":14422.966,"text":"對,我們剛剛講到的是,只要司法警察機關有這個需要,送到國安局來審查通訊偵查的必要性的話,我們進行審查,再送請高等法院,法院來同意。對啊沒錯啊,所以你們也會執行監聽嘛,只是要有一個法律程序嘛。"},{"start":14424.745,"end":14449.507,"text":"國安局是審核機關,我們不是執行國安局的機關。好,我要問一下,就算你是審核機關,相關為執行國安業務進行的監聽事後會不會通知當事人?這個要看案情的狀況,依照法律規定,沒有,看案情的狀況,三個月評估一次,法律規定是這樣子。法律規定要通知,事後要通知,這是法律規定的。要由法院來通知。法律你還是要理解一下。沒有,一清了,委員也請看清楚法律。"},{"start":14449.967,"end":14474.168,"text":"這要由法院在結案之後,針對案子的決定制的通知不廢話,在結案之後啊,偵辦中不會通知我也知道啊是,沒有錯,法律是這樣寫對啊,那你前面要給我拗了半天,拗什麼啊我沒有啊,就是舉照法律的情形好啦,最後一件事情啦最後一件事情,我要跟你講今天授予我們國安單位,來用我們國家來去做所謂的那個安全的一些偵查是有必要啦,我支持啊"},{"start":14475.06,"end":14475.08,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":14502.13,"end":14509.141,"text":"接下來請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在請鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在請楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在"},{"start":14515.373,"end":14538.616,"text":"我們已登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有李毅君委員、楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員令威"},{"start":14539.677,"end":14565.082,"text":"約定期限者從其所定今天我們特別訂定這樣子的一個題目主要是我們希望在自由民主法治的國家這是剛剛局長也特別提到的我們希望所有的人民是有言論自由可是他相對的也要受到法律的保障而不是在言論自由提出來之前對於特定的群體做"},{"start":14567.022,"end":14567.482,"text":"今天我們本日會議到此結束"},{"start":14605.925,"end":14606.325,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"16000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16000","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea38aadac80e2e3f8078ed6b004bfe7ee619186e52af124432c31bd34f5af47ab25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。二、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。三、繼續審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。五、繼續審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。六、審查委員王美惠等19人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。七、審查委員邱鎮軍等27人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第七案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-12T08:30:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T16:44:00+08:00","duration":29639,"影片長度":"08:13:59","委員發言時間":"08:30:01 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案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":708.731,"end":730.607,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":732.968,"end":757.956,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":767.146,"end":784.822,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":787.645,"end":791.194,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":794.781,"end":823.791,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":829.521,"end":850.99,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":855.93,"end":881.317,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":882.717,"end":910.805,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。"},{"start":913.404,"end":933.33,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第16會期內政委員會第"},{"start":935.845,"end":962.494,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會"},{"start":967.875,"end":997.272,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民"},{"start":997.312,"end":1011.628,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":1013.069,"end":1032.883,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第"},{"start":1039.667,"end":1040.407,"text":"審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":1058.166,"end":1063.979,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1069.638,"end":1075.179,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼"},{"start":1091.084,"end":1092.225,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。五、繼"},{"start":1107.83,"end":1133.863,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1141.636,"end":1152.75,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":1154.984,"end":1175.225,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1182.19,"end":1201.979,"text":"繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1204.599,"end":1230.685,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":1232.108,"end":1253.893,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1259.137,"end":1265.902,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查"},{"start":1291.984,"end":1302.53,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1306.68,"end":1317.417,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1320.908,"end":1330.612,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1338.029,"end":1358.989,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1366.783,"end":1382.033,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1399.212,"end":1418.722,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1429.848,"end":1457.221,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草"},{"start":1460.579,"end":1474.184,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1476.766,"end":1505.856,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1508.558,"end":1525.463,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1532.432,"end":1541.59,"text":"審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1543.804,"end":1565.19,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1577.207,"end":1585.061,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1592.21,"end":1618.876,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第"},{"start":1618.916,"end":1647.46,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1672.126,"end":1677.591,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1678.464,"end":1693.773,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":1709.023,"end":1716.087,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1732.38,"end":1739.868,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":1746.025,"end":1762.364,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1764.166,"end":1771.528,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":1784.793,"end":1792.716,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1799.594,"end":1803.936,"text":"新住民基本法草案案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":1835.469,"end":1863.757,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":1874.68,"end":1896.878,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1943.41,"end":1944.991,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":1959.875,"end":1963.46,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":1980.162,"end":2000.714,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":2006.732,"end":2013.306,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":2021.19,"end":2035.534,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":2069.36,"end":2082.75,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":2113.648,"end":2121.358,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":2147.539,"end":2163.773,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":2177.244,"end":2198.399,"text":"審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":2205.33,"end":2220.923,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":2228.592,"end":2239.681,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":2260.942,"end":2271.625,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼"},{"start":2288.536,"end":2299.684,"text":"好,我們請主任秘書報告出席人數。報告委員會出席委員11人以主法定人數。現在開會進行報告事項,請宣讀上次的會議議事錄。"},{"start":2302.406,"end":2307.307,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22次全體委員會議．事錄．時間113年6月5日星期三上午9時3分至下午5時35分。113年6月6日星期四上午9時3分至12時41分。地點紅樓202會議室出席委員蘇強慧委員等14人。練習委員羅敏采委員等24人。練習官員6月5日"},{"start":2324.651,"end":2344.119,"text":"內政部部長劉世芳及相關人員、行政院打擊詐欺辦公室主任李憲明、數位發展部政務次長林怡進及相關人員、法務部政務次長徐錫祥及相關人員、國家通訊傳播委員會主任林樹黃文哲及相關人員、金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局副局長黃厚明及相關人員、司法院刑事廳副廳長陳信齊。"},{"start":2345.78,"end":2365.654,"text":"6月6日海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲及相關人員法務部法治司副司長謝志敏、主席吳昭季委員起名。報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定。討論事項一、詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案。審查行政院和勤審議、台灣民眾黨黨團及委員陳廷飛等16人分別擬具詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案。"},{"start":2366.774,"end":2381.933,"text":"討論事項一、二和並詢答民眾黨黨團代表委員黃珊珊、委員王美惠、陳亭飛說明提案要旨。內政部部長劉世芳報告委員蘇巧慧等24人質詢。分別由內政部部長劉世芳及相關人員、數位發展部政務次長林怡靜及相關人員、"},{"start":2383.034,"end":2409.953,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會主任秘書黃文哲、行政院打擊詐欺辦公室主任李憲明、金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局副局長黃厚明、法務部政務次長徐錫祥、司法院刑事廳副廳長陳信啟﹑答覆說明。登記發言委員除不在場則外其餘均與發言完畢,詢答結束。委員中嘉賓李博毅、羅志強等3人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會。"},{"start":2412.014,"end":2429.722,"text":"決議詐欺犯罪危害防治條例草案等三案。一、第8條、第11條至第13條、第20條、第44條、第49條及第57條均於保留。二、名稱第一章章名第一條至第6條、第二章章名第一節結名第7條、第9條、第10條、第二節結名第14條至第19條、第21條、第26條、第三節結名第27條至第38條、第42條、第三章章名第45條至第48條"},{"start":2439.827,"end":2443.909,"text":"第50條、第4章章明、第52條至第55條、第5章章明、第56條、第58條均照行政院提案通過。三、第22條、第23條、第24條、第25條、第39條、第40條、第41條、第43條及第51條均修正通過。修正條文請參閱。"},{"start":2458.917,"end":2474.087,"text":"十二、台灣民眾黨黨團提案第39條至第41條第4節解明第46條至第50條第54條第67條均不予採納。審查通過之條文條次引述條文之文字及相關法制用於授權主席及議事人員處理。"},{"start":2475.388,"end":2502.55,"text":"併然審查完均擬具審查報告提報院會討論需交由黨團協商並推請務召集委員齊名於院會討論時做補充說明。通過附帶決議五項。二、宗教團體以自然人民益登基不動產處理戰刑條例。審查委員張家俊等21人委員吳啟明等19人委員王美惠等17人委員林黛嬅等18人及委員陳廷飛等16人分別擬具《宗教團體以自然人民益登基不動產處理戰刑條例》第五條條文修正草案案。決議"},{"start":2504.383,"end":2529.848,"text":"一、第五條,照委員吳啟明等19人、委員張家俊等21人、委員陳亭飛等16人提案通過。二、並按審查完具寧具審查報告提報院會討論,不須交由黨團協商,並推請吳昭記委員齊明於院會討論時做補充說明。三、海洋保育法草案。繼續審查海洋保育法草案案即18案。決議一、第四條、第九條、第十二條、第十三條、第二十三條、第二十九條均照行政院提案通過。"},{"start":2531.008,"end":2541.195,"text":"增訂第4條之一以下條次依序遞言條文及條文內之條次調整授權議事人員處理。三、第6條、第7條、第8條、第14條、第19條、第20條修正通過。第21條及第22條均修正通過。修正條文請參閱。"},{"start":2549.301,"end":2556.751,"text":"委員楊瓊英等20人、委員羅廷偉等18人提案第34條、委員羅美玲等17人、委員莊瑞雄等20人提案第29條、台灣民眾黨黨團提案第35條、委員賴瑞龍等18人提案第28條及委員吳啟明等18人提案第29條均不予採納。"},{"start":2566.384,"end":2591.707,"text":"審查通過之條文條次引述條文之文字及相關法制用與授權主席及議事人員處理。並然審查完据擬具審查報告提報院會討論,不須交由黨團協商,並推請無召集委員齊名於院會討論時作補充說明。通過附帶決議八項。宣讀完畢。上次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏的地方?"},{"start":2593.732,"end":2595.154,"text":"好謝謝那我們議事錄確定我們現在進繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2602.025,"end":2624.544,"text":"繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。」繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團委員張智倫等18人、國民黨黨團委員蘇巧惠等26人分別擬具:「新住民基本法草案。」審查委員王美惠等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。」審查委員邱振軍等27人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。」宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2631.121,"end":2642.695,"text":"好,我們現在介紹在場的委員還有列席的官員。我們先介紹王美惠委員。謝謝。張宏祿委員。黃婕委員。羅美玲委員。李博義委員。"},{"start":2651.264,"end":2669.599,"text":"還有張智倫委員、徐宇珍委員、麥玉珍委員。接著我介紹一下今天列席的官員。內政部部長劉世芳、移民署署長鍾景坤、移民事務組組長黃玲玉、"},{"start":2672.81,"end":2700.821,"text":"民政司專門委員劉立芳。宗教及理智司專門委員唐耕生。國土管理署駐在發展組檢任政工程師張瓊月。警政署副組長甘延明。大陸委員會法證處處長周明瑞。港澳盟葬處專門委員蔡碧嘉。"},{"start":2703.533,"end":2728.236,"text":"行政院外交國防法務處副處長陳永志教育部終身教育司副司長嚴寶月高等教育司專門委員郭嘉英師資培育及藝術教育司專門委員劉鳳雲國民及學前教育署原民特教副組長林淑明"},{"start":2730.12,"end":2750.454,"text":"衛生福利部社會保險司專務委員陳淑華社會救助及社公司檢任視察王燕晴社會及家庭署科長陳昭帆勞動部勞動力發展署副署長鍾景濟經濟部投資促進司經營參事黃清雲國際貿易署檢任秘書簡賢英"},{"start":2760.207,"end":2787.8,"text":"農業部漁業署檢任記證邱怡賢。外交部條約法律司專門委員黃仁良。領事事務局簽證組科長陳冠廷。文化部中橫規劃司副司長嚴榮興。法務部參事廖江憲。司法院司法行政廳法官林怡靜。"},{"start":2789.704,"end":2818.109,"text":"交通部交通產業發展及國際事務司副司長林茂雄公共運輸及兼領司檢任記證王基洲國家發展委員會社會發展處專門委員謝偉智人力發展處科長黃淑婷考選部專門委員翁謙惠世衛發展部資源管理司司長劉信仁"},{"start":2820.439,"end":2844.962,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會電台與內容事務處副處長陳書明。行政院人事行政總處主編人栗處專門委員張雅惠。行政院主計總處公務預算處檢任視察李培元。基金預算處專門委員戴群芳。"},{"start":2846.446,"end":2868.476,"text":"現在另外再介紹一下我們的另外召委吳祁銘召委也在現場。我們現在請提案委員說明提案,因為今天有兩位委員提案也進來了。我們先請王美惠委員做提案說明。"},{"start":2878.601,"end":2897.305,"text":"主席,大家好,保證好。今天,因為,我估計,長久以來,我們對新住民在這裏,雖然家庭不是這麼多,但畢竟,我們也要照顧他的管理。我估計,我們住民"},{"start":2901.793,"end":2910.518,"text":"在這裏面,我們會覺得今天要審新住民的新住民已經在台灣有將近65萬人我們的關注人56萬人"},{"start":2916.923,"end":2942.063,"text":"我覺得這個措施是非常多的。而且這裏面本身有提及要如何讓新住民的權利保障。在這裏我覺得我們國內不能忽視這個重要的造型。雖然我們國內還要很多的看到,各種的新住民有覺得風氣詩。"},{"start":2945.649,"end":2972.648,"text":"新住民也因為相關的資源的欠缺常常造成無法融入我們國內的社會造成很多障礙。有一些對新住民造成困擾也會讓社會更加撕裂,對台灣來說不是一個好事。為了要保障新住民的權利,我們"},{"start":2973.956,"end":2978.65,"text":"政府和新住民的政策和法定,一定要"},{"start":2980.816,"end":3007.164,"text":"制度好好糾纏,因為我認為長久以來這個系統性的調整本身是有能力新住民權益保障法依新住民,可以融入台灣中華民國的社會,讓台灣中華民國成為一個更加多元競爭力更加強的國家。"},{"start":3007.924,"end":3019.371,"text":"在這兩天我覺得長久以來我們的新住民在地方看到他們的臉頰、他們的臉頸所以我們不管時代一種都會覺得說這些新住民我們要去補充但是補充當中我希望我們的補充要怎麼補充這些新住民可以我們的法會更加安全"},{"start":3037.621,"end":3051.047,"text":"到學完畢,不是說跟我們再找公共的,跟他的秘書是說實在的,我們看到他的做法,看到他回到的困難,是最重要的,將來我們也能"},{"start":3053.872,"end":3073.295,"text":"讓這個新住民覺得看出小英總統被當的延續的賴清德總統對新住民的照顧和幫助,因為我們尊重每一個的意見。但是在這裡面,我要先關心,因為在上面我們主席也有說,我們"},{"start":3082.502,"end":3090.326,"text":"內政會所提出的條款﹐可以學完畢﹐學好﹐我們在這也覺得說﹐在這個管理當中﹐"},{"start":3097.914,"end":3106.537,"text":"說實在,我覺得有的人說,我們都沒有關心新住民,讓我們這樣突然聽起來,心肝非常艱苦。我覺得每一個族群,我們都要去訪戰,要去照顧。但不是說,你自己新的新住民,你就照顧你的新住民。是要怎樣來這個權利保障,讓他多轉好,以上。"},{"start":3129.261,"end":3134.064,"text":"好,非常謝謝美鳳委員的這個提案說明,不要緊,不要緊,不要緊,不要緊"},{"start":3139.688,"end":3142.629,"text":"本日會議審查法案 夜經本會113年4月29日第11屆第1會期第15次全體委員會議詢答結束。"},{"start":3163.715,"end":3183.261,"text":"針對新增第6案還有第7案單位的報告,我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。報告委員會,我們現在繼續進行法案審查,請宣讀討論事項第6案還有第7案的條文,修正動議,請一步宣讀。宣讀完畢後,我們再進行協商。謝謝。"},{"start":3185.057,"end":3213.96,"text":"法名稱委員王美惠等提案新住民權益保障法委員邱政軍等提案新住民基本法第一條委員王美惠等提案為保障新住民之基本權利協助新住民適應生活加強照顧新住民家庭營造友善移民環境特制定本法委員邱政軍等提案第一條為落實憲法保障多元文化精神保障新住民之基本權益並對其教育文化衛生醫療及社會福利予以保障輔助並促其發展及族群融合特制定本法第二條委員王美惠等提案"},{"start":3214.921,"end":3235.654,"text":"本法所稱新住民定義如下。一、一日出國籍移民法外國專業人才延攬及僱用法香港澳門關係條例或台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例在台居留、永久居留、長期居留或定居者。二、一國籍法申請規劃為我國國民者。三、一國籍法第二條第一項第一款或第二款前段屬我國國民而附獲母其中一人非我國國民。"},{"start":3236.094,"end":3264.913,"text":"或為國籍法第二條第一項第三款規劃取得我國國籍者。委員邱正軍等提案同國民黨黨團提案。委員邱正軍等提案第三條同國民黨黨團提案第三條。委員王美惠等提案第三條。為研議協調推展本法相關事務行政願意設置新住民委員會。前項委員會之組成應兼顧新住民成員組成比例及多元性。第一項委員會應確保各級政府與新住民相關事務之執行標準一致。委員邱正軍等提案第五條同國民黨黨團提案第四條。"},{"start":3265.914,"end":3281.092,"text":"委員王美惠等提案第4條,行政院為審議協調本法相關事務,必要時應召開跨部會首長會議。委員邱正軍等提案第6條,同國民黨黨團提案第5條。委員王美惠等提案第6條,同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第6條第一項。"},{"start":3282.674,"end":3297.943,"text":"委員邱政軍等提案第7條,同國民黨黨團提案第6條,委員王美惠等提案第5條,新住民委員會應考量全國新住民事務並廣納全國新住民之意見,每4年擬定國家新住民發展計劃,進行政院核定作為各級政府新住民相關施政之依據。"},{"start":3298.923,"end":3314.749,"text":"委員羅美惠等提案第7條。第一項為政府未推動本法之事務與獎勵措施應設置新住民發展基金其基因之運用辦法由新住民委員會定之。第二項同國民黨黨團提案第7條。第二項委員邱正軍等提案第8條同國民黨黨團提案第7條。"},{"start":3317.25,"end":3342.26,"text":"委員王美惠等提案第9條政府應提供多元新住民文化之教育與宣導以推動普及全民對新住民文化之理解與尊重政府應積極檢視各項政策對於促進新住民文化品權之效益並具以研謀相關解決對策委員邱正軍等提案第4條新住民享有憲法保障的各項基本人權應不受歧視、排擠、剝奪或限制政府對於不同國籍或地區之新住民行政措施應一律平等"},{"start":3343.48,"end":3371.152,"text":"委員邱正軍等提案第9條政府應尊重並保護新住民的文化權利鼓勵多元文化的交流與融合促進社會對不同文化的理解和尊重為加強新住民文化及產業傳承與發揚政府應設北中南東新住民文化重點發展區傾向重點發展區應任用一定比例之新住民導覽人員介紹與推廣新住民語言以及文化其任用規則由主管機關定之前二上業務與本法第4條委員會設立前之施行應協調以移民署配合辦理"},{"start":3371.932,"end":3388.706,"text":"委員邱正軍等提案第10條第一項為新住民及其子女有權接受與本國國民同等之教育政府應提供必要的教育資源和資源確保新住民及其子女能順利適應和融入本國教育體系第二三項同國民黨黨團提案第9條第一二項"},{"start":3389.767,"end":3415.061,"text":"委員王美惠等提案第10條,政府應規劃集合相關資源及學校,積極提供新住民學習我國語言與文字之資源,以有效消除語言隔閡。委員邱振軍等提案第11條,同國民黨黨團提案第10條。委員王美惠等提案第11條,政府應於公共領域提供新住民語言播音諮詢或通譯服務及其他落實新住民語言友善環境之措施,辦理前項工作卓有績效者應予獎勵。"},{"start":3416.081,"end":3439.083,"text":"委員邱正軍等提案第12條,第一項同國民黨黨團提案第11條,第一項。第二項為政府應與國家考試增訂新住民事務相關類科,以因應新住民公務之需求。委員王美惠等提案第8條,政府應提供新住民在我國生活所需之基本資訊,教育、文化、衛生、醫療及社會福利等。前項資訊政府應盡力提供多語言版本,必便各國新住民能完整了解。"},{"start":3439.804,"end":3460.862,"text":"委員邱正軍等提案第13條同國民黨黨團提案第12條委員王美惠等提案第13條政府得以獎勵補助或其他方式協助民間團體辦理相關新住民權益支持計畫委員邱正軍等提案第14條第一項為新住民享有平等就業機會不得因國籍種族性別等原因受到不公平對待第二項同國民黨黨團提案第13條"},{"start":3463.044,"end":3485.761,"text":"委員邱正軍等提案第15條政府應提供新住民基本生活保障並對弱勢新住民應給予輔助政府應提供新住民各項社會福利對新住民參加使用醫療資源或其他社會保險無力承擔者應予補助委員王美惠等提案第12條政府應保障新住民族群傳播及媒體經用權並得獎勵或補助製播新住民族語言"},{"start":3486.822,"end":3496.13,"text":"新住民族群語言文化節目之廣播電視以及網路或其他形式媒體事業委員邱正軍等提案第16條同國民黨黨團提案第15條委員邱正軍等提案第17條同國民黨黨團提案第16條宣讀完畢"},{"start":3509.966,"end":3511.608,"text":"我們繼續從第5條條文開始來進行討論,請問在場委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":3521.814,"end":3543.822,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我想要先進行程序發言因為其實在我們上一次審查這個新住民的草案的時候其中有一個決議是說希望行政院盡速的提出新住民相關的草案再來排上議程再進行審查所以是不是希望可以遵照上一次在高經招委下排的這個議程的決議"},{"start":3545.663,"end":3571.993,"text":"那請行政院儘速的提出相關的草案我們再來進行審查呢再來因為520之後其實也換了新的部長那我也希望說我們新的部長呃 劉部長可以先針對新住民相關的這個草案來發表意見跟基本的立場那我覺得這個有助於我們接下來的討論另外就是說其實今天有兩個新的版本送進來包括美會委員還有另外一位邱委員"},{"start":3572.893,"end":3588.024,"text":"那送進來之後是不是大家的版本可以再做相關的一些大體的討論那更完備之後再進行討論或許會比較有共識所以我也希望說因為其實我們在座所有委員都非常的關心新住民的權益"},{"start":3588.464,"end":3609.261,"text":"那我自己也提了相關的修正動議希望可以針對新住民的權益有更直接的作用的保障那希望今天可以先聽我們劉部長的意見然後也可以遵照上一次的決議有院版之後我們再做更完整的討論我覺得這也是一個行政部門應該要拿出來的態度以上建議 謝謝"},{"start":3615.326,"end":3643.596,"text":"黃菊委員有兩個問題第一個問題就是我上次做的決議就是希望這個內政部會後本次會議各黨團還有委員提案的版本跟委員發言所提出的相關新住民遭遇的現況問題向行政院匯報並請行政院儘速提出新住民基本法相關的草案這樣子能夠儘速排上一層再進行調查的確是這個部分待會也會請內政部來說明一下"},{"start":3644.036,"end":3645.617,"text":"議案完成二讀前原提案者得經院會同意後。"},{"start":3663.934,"end":3692.979,"text":"第三項法律案附委經逐條討論之後所以我們之前已經逐條討論到第四條了嘛所以院會在違併案審查的交付時審查會對已通過的條文不再討論了所以這個部分就回復您的第二個問題所以第一個問題所以美會委員跟那個邱正軍委員進來的我們就可能在前面不討論也不大體討論了我們直接就從第五條開始好嗎"},{"start":3694.139,"end":3704.844,"text":"現在我們也請那個內政部部長也跟大家說明一下就是經過我們上次的決議不只到內政部長會去這個行政院的報告是怎麼樣的一個過程好謝謝請部長"},{"start":3709.74,"end":3714.782,"text":"謝謝昭偉給我這個機會也非常謝謝內政委員會還有包括所有提案的委員對於新住民的關心確實沒有錯在上一次4月29的時候在這個內政委員會昭偉以及各位委員所做的決議的第三條裡面有要求內政部在會後將本次會議各黨團及委員提案版本跟委員發言"},{"start":3731.867,"end":3747.881,"text":"所提出相關新住民遭遇的問題要向行政院匯報並且請行政院儘速提出新住民基本法的相關草案必立儘速排上議程再進行審查那在我上任之後我跟移民署的同仁還有我們相關法規會的同仁"},{"start":3749.142,"end":3768.34,"text":"已經盡速將跟新住民權益保障相關的這個草案完成那現在已經送到行政院那要跟這個各位委員報告的部分就是說送到行政院之後如果按照我們現在的這個流程應該是行政院院會通過再送到立法院"},{"start":3768.74,"end":3770.542,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":3785.78,"end":3789.983,"text":"也就是說大家對於這個法案的名稱是屬於新住民基本法還是權益保障法還有其他的相關的問題都有做一個討論譬如說新住民基本法的部分在各位委員所提案有關於新住民的這個定義"},{"start":3803.714,"end":3829.333,"text":"我們認為提新住民基本法不是一個作用法的相關配套之下有可能跟各位委員所提到的港澳條例或兩岸人民關係條例在法律的競合上會出現問題所以由布裡頭送到行政院草案的版本裡面我們仍然是提出以新住民權益保障法"},{"start":3829.733,"end":3855.578,"text":"也就是說他變成中華民國的國民之前到合法到台灣來那因為台灣是一個注重人權以及我們是注重這個社會福利的狀況之下我們不管是在教育、文化、社會福利或者是來台的居留等等這些保障我們希望透過這樣的專法來保障他們那第二個有關於新住民要成立一個專責的單位我們也認同就是說不是只是一個諮詢的方式"},{"start":3856.058,"end":3858.579,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":3871.726,"end":3893.282,"text":"將這個新住民的發展基金來轉型,還有建立國家級的通益制度,以及其他的放寬新住民的學歷財論等等這些。所以就這個各位委員所提的部分,我們確實是有跟行政院,包括政務委員,或是包括相關的這個處,以及做一下匯報。但是因為時間差的關係,再加上因為在上一屆"},{"start":3894.642,"end":3921.314,"text":"在4月的時候所通過的若干條文可能跟我們部裡頭所送上去的條文有一些需要調整的空間所以我們很希望未來如果要真正審查的時候可不可以根據我們行政院送進來的一個版本將所有委員或是其他黨團所擬具的這個草案版本一條一條的來做一下審查那我們會尊重這個部裡頭跟大院最後的這個三讀通過以上說明謝謝"},{"start":3923.744,"end":3932.612,"text":"非常謝謝部長的說明部長剛剛的說明有沒有委員要補充張宏洛委員"},{"start":3935.572,"end":3955.038,"text":"我想剛剛部長講的大家都聽得很清楚啦齁那我覺得新住民大家都非常的關心啦齁那部長我們可不可以就是說很明確的請問一下齁就是如果說趕一趕啊在這個本會期前啊行政院版的可不可以送進來我們有請部長回應一下謝謝"},{"start":3964.193,"end":3983.085,"text":"報告委員,如果各位會認為說希望行政院在這個會期之前提進來的話,我們會去拜託行政院的包括政務委員加速審查,然後趕快送進來。有一個時間嗎?一定不是這個禮拜,因為來不及。"},{"start":3985.558,"end":3995.643,"text":"好,好,謝謝,那其他委員呢?等一下王美惠委員,然後張智倫委員主席,剛才柏丁說這樣,當然我也知道不是這禮拜也不會有啦,因為我覺得大家都要有共識,想好多少次保障新住民的權利,說實在,好到現在我們就有加開議員會,所以沒有現在已經收會了,"},{"start":4012.931,"end":4016.774,"text":"所以說,我們希望在內政部這邊,如果剛才李蘇介紹,大家所有對新住民的關心和管理,我們一定要來納入。所以在這裡聽補充這樣說,有的做到這個時候的過程這個時間,"},{"start":4036.718,"end":4042.003,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":4058.136,"end":4072.643,"text":"我相信在座每一位都有看到新住民的身分和登場的照片,所以今天大家站在這裏來保障他們的權利,所以保證要好好去關心這個區塊,以上。好,繼續我們請張智倫委員,然後再請吳昭偉。"},{"start":4083.513,"end":4109.657,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員部長大家早安那其實我很認同剛剛所有委員的發言其實每個委員都非常關心新住民的這個權益所以在昨天我們也特別開了公聽會那不分黨派我個人其實三個黨我都有邀請那有空的委員其實像麥玉珍委員劉許廷委員我們民進黨委員有因為有事情有要務沒有出席可是還是非常感謝他"},{"start":4110.257,"end":4135.492,"text":"那昨天有一個很特別的事情啊就是昨天這個移民署的副署長有參與他那時候跟我講的是說我有跟羅委員對對對他有個特別對對對所以所以他所以我的意思說新住民的權益我們每一位委員都特別不分黨派都特別的的關心啊然後我的重點是說昨天我在會中有跟這個移民署的"},{"start":4136.733,"end":4164.14,"text":"這個副署長來去討論說到底院內有沒有版本結果他昨天下午回覆了我的是說移民署才有草案還沒有送這個行政院結果想不到今天劉部長非常用心他說已經送到這個行政院了所以意思代表就是說其實很多事情是可以火速或是說新住民有60萬人是可以很快的去做處理的所以拜託這個部長這邊大家都這麼關心這些事情"},{"start":4165.04,"end":4177.356,"text":"那為什麼我們今天要一直開會來幫新住民的權益去討論其實大家每個人都很用心可是我特別要提的就是行政院每個月每半年有開一次這個有關於新住民的會報"},{"start":4179.022,"end":4201.19,"text":"一年只有開兩次上半年一次下半年一次其實非常不夠其實到今年113年度現在都六月了到現在都還沒有開那沒有開我們也去請教原因我們相信我們各位委員都很重視沒有開的原因就是說是要審法案就是要審這個新住民基本法結果變成我們所有委員已經快要"},{"start":4202.49,"end":4230.065,"text":"做快要都已經快要火燒屁股了大家坐在這邊結果今天我還有特別一個要拜託的事情今天還對我們還針對於這個我們法的這個名稱還大家還有還沒有辦法這個完全的確定到底是新住民基本法草案還是新住民權益保障法草案那我個人我是一定要特別這邊強調不管是我們的這個原住民是原住民基本法我們客家的鄉親也是客家基本法所以我希望說今天"},{"start":4230.985,"end":4246.82,"text":"無論如何部長這邊一定要趕快來,如果連這個東西都沒有辦法來確定的話,我們如何在這個會期有辦法把這個法案一定會跳票,那我們這些委員坐在這邊真的是浪費大家、浪費全國人民的時間。以上,謝謝。好,繼續我們請吳昭偉。"},{"start":4252.388,"end":4254.829,"text":"三、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":4273.417,"end":4299.935,"text":"來推動一個法案那推動法案到時候又排擠到新住排擠到原住民排擠到客家客家的族群那也不好所以我們整個那個法案還是要說很完備我認為等到我們行政院辦進來我們再來組條因為也是在這個會期也是到時候還是拜託召委再來排所以這是本席的建議謝謝"},{"start":4302.287,"end":4321.299,"text":"我們請紅路委員然後就是博裕委員然後再來蔓玉珍委員謝謝剛聽大家這樣講其實我我我們必須要講大家都很重視這一個但新住民我們要去確定就是他跟原住民跟客家是不一樣的新住民的身份是會轉變的"},{"start":4323.3,"end":4325.001,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查"},{"start":4343.248,"end":4364.543,"text":"真的把法案好好的把它定得好然後才能夠真正保障它而不是我們現在連一個基本法啦權益保障法或什麼大家都還沒有共識啊這樣子很我覺得定出來的法雖然是通過但不一定是對新住民是最好的所以我會建議具體建議啦"},{"start":4366.167,"end":4388.437,"text":"內政部這個會期如果錢可以送來我們來得及我們趕快開我們也在這個會期之前把它送出委員會阿如果不行我們大家做個決議我們在下個會期一定要會期開始前開始之後一個月內要把這部法案送出我們內政委員會我們內政委員會自己訂個期程"},{"start":4389.778,"end":4409.287,"text":"把他做好,然後把他用得更清楚。我覺得這樣子,我不知道這樣子的話,內政部這樣子,你們來得及嗎?你們可以嗎?我們等一下請你回答一下。我們都會請部長回答,我們先請李博義委員,還有那個麥玉珍委員,謝謝。"},{"start":4411.434,"end":4440.105,"text":"謝謝齁 我們在 欸 召委我們在4月29號的時候其實我們已經有做過這些討論當天來的是前內政部的次長華進群齁那也不是部長那到520到今天520新政府上任到今天呃兩三不到三個禮拜的時間齁那我剛剛聽到劉思萬部長可以提出至少對新住民權益基本定義的清楚我是對於"},{"start":4440.905,"end":4458.695,"text":"如果內政部要在這一個會期裡面可以送進來我對部長的執行效率是有信心的那我同意剛剛張宏祿委員的說法新住民我們先不要把他標籤化新住民在取得中華民國身份之前"},{"start":4459.515,"end":4486.449,"text":"相關權益做最具體的保障由內政部提出來我相信這會是比較完整一點的法案所以我這邊也呼應我們可以在這個會期讓內政部趕快把這個法案送進來我們內政委員會趕快來排審可以做出最保障新住民在過度拿到台灣身份拿到中華民國身份這一段時間的所有相關權益謝謝"},{"start":4488.894,"end":4489.134,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":4500.39,"end":4518.99,"text":"沒有人說要分族群就是歧視我們只是說分不同的族群來用不同的法條來去照顧是這樣而已我們也針對賴清德總統如果沒有分他沒有七大的政見針對新住民的法條對不對"},{"start":4521.873,"end":4542.572,"text":"選舉的時候他提出七大政見針對新住民我們現在是為了他的政見來去實現他說的話而已還有2016年到現在是蔡英文說照顧新住民照顧到現在了不是現在才說也不是因為我們這個會期才提2016年"},{"start":4548.445,"end":4575.327,"text":"立場委員也有提過二零一九年我們的邱成遠也有提過所以說不是沒有是因為大家就是沒有重視所以沒有再去申請所以沒有去設法我們現在是要去設法羅美玲委員她也做了四年她是代表新住民她沒有提現在才提"},{"start":4577.148,"end":4589.859,"text":"四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":4608.205,"end":4631.811,"text":"有意見就是說我們現在就是不要浪費大家的時間,因為我們要,是因為我們要提的就是講我們就是認識啦,就是認識。關心才坐在這邊,但是不是要不要坐,不是沒時間。"},{"start":4635.205,"end":4655.516,"text":"所以我發言請尊重好嗎?你們發言我們都沒有回應,你尊重好嗎?我發言都沒有啦,你寫名啦,你那個人寫名啦。寫名什麼都講事實嘛,還是說你有提的話,你就快點提,快點問再來提,不是,不是,已經是照你的意思嗎?"},{"start":4660.234,"end":4660.875,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":4677.394,"end":4704.734,"text":"社會人士民間團體專家學者都希望說我們要抓緊這個機會因為新住民創造更多的環境還有我們前移民署的署長也說因為他當署長的時候沒有去把這件事情做好如果做好的話我們連公聽會都不是今天辦所以我們希望就是我們共同去努力把這個"},{"start":4706.489,"end":4712.69,"text":"我們這個委員會我們要新住民基本法要去通過如果內政部有版本我們就來做送起我們的多資協商這樣子也是可以來得及的不要說我們上次4月份我們開會了說要老在7月份在6月份我們要去審的時候我們的召委也本來我們是在要求說520之前"},{"start":4734.315,"end":4741.316,"text":"但是呢後來就說等520之後520之後又說沒有版本但是昨天我們移民署的副署長也說沒有版本但是馬上我們內政部部長今天說有了我們要送進所以說要做還是不做而已嘛不是沒有嘛一天就申出來了所以說這樣子不是這個問題所以我們是要真正的去把事情做不是要來去拖延時間"},{"start":4764.24,"end":4792.917,"text":"謝謝以上好 非常謝謝這個麥玉珍委員我想麥玉珍委員的意思是說大家都很關心啦那羅委員很關心也自己澄清了四年前你有提案沒有沒有 你有提案他的意思是說你有提案啦對然後抱歉等一下是那個誰牛徐廷委員然後再來就是美玲委員不好意思那個邱正軍委員現在也到了現場齁我想就問您您要不要提案說明好 等兩位委員"},{"start":4793.957,"end":4806.003,"text":"發言完畢,我請你提案說明好嗎?謝謝,請劉雪婷委員。好,謝謝主席喔。這我覺得這樣子啦,因為上一次審的時候是4月9號嘛。然後現在今天是6月12號,基本上就等了兩個月嘛。這兩個月等待的..."},{"start":4807.182,"end":4828.33,"text":"二十九等了一個多月嘛目標當然就是希望說院版可以在這中間出來那看起來院版現在只有草案還沒有經過程序那現在看起來也沒有辦法確定經過程序的時候到底什麼時候可以送到立法院然後什麼時候來做排案所以以至於在第一會期順利的通過是很大的變數這我想大家都不會反對"},{"start":4829.19,"end":4843.573,"text":"那再來我們在逐條的時候這部法案因為是新的立法所以難免有爭議所以一定到最後若干的條文會保留協商那是不是你只要預留一個月的協商冷凍期大家來做處理跟討論"},{"start":4844.634,"end":4868.959,"text":"那所以我的建議是這樣今天我們還是跑逐條我們至少在今天難得大家都在就在這過程中大家把意見做整合能夠把爭議降低就降低加速未來的程序等到你院版出來因為我認為院版出來跟我們各位委員提出來的版本應該差異也不至於會太大那院版出來又進一步二讀並按協商就好了嘛我們到時候針對這些剩下來的問題點直接透過協商方式處理"},{"start":4870.159,"end":4884.166,"text":"這樣有機會在7月16號的時候第1會期的時候可以把整部法案處理完嘛我覺得這樣可能是比較周全的方式所以說我覺得不要再等院板進來再重新開始跑主條今天可以先跑幾條就是幾條啦以上是我的建議謝謝"},{"start":4885.1,"end":4901.71,"text":"好,非常謝謝劉雪婷。我們請羅美玲委員。呃,謝謝昭偉。其實我的個性從來就不會去主動說攻擊別人怎麼樣。其實我必須澄清就是說,其實我在上一屆的時候就已經提出新住民權益保障法,只是藉其不續審。"},{"start":4902.991,"end":4921.389,"text":"那其實我看到不管民眾黨也好國民黨也好還有我們的委員同仁都有提出跟新住民相關的法案其實我心底是非常感謝的我就覺得說很謝謝大家來關心新住民新住民這個我們不要新住民這個我們是族群好了"},{"start":4922.009,"end":4951.769,"text":"所以我在想那我也很仔細看了各位的這個版本其實大家的出發點都是好的那我自己呢一直希望說有院版出來因為我覺得院版它會綜合我們所有委員的意見然後會讓我們你說我的版本有沒有問題每個人版本都沒有問題嗎我覺得多多少少都還是會有一些不盡完善的地方那我一直希望行政院能夠提出這個版本讓整個這個新住民相關的法呢更加的完善"},{"start":4952.329,"end":4971.708,"text":"其實不是說有這個新住民相關的法沒出來新住民其實都不被照顧我覺得這對行政單位來講不是很公平其實很多其實已經在做只是說我們立了這個法讓這些過去我們內政部移民署所做的這一切能夠入法"},{"start":4972.248,"end":4997.401,"text":"好像新住民的賠利計劃有沒有做?做了好多年耶,新住民跟二代的賠利計劃。對新住民的這個弱勢有沒有照顧?有新住民法案基金對一些弱勢的還是有照顧?等到拿到身份證之後,就回歸到本國國人的這個福利體系裡面去。其實很多都已經在做,只是我們希望把它入法。所以那這個部分的話,我一直覺得說,立法不能衝出為過而過。"},{"start":4999.122,"end":5020.117,"text":"那說實在的我希不希望這個法國我非常的希望所以我在上一屆的時候我已經有提出來只是我覺得每一部法都是一樣行政立法單位要有充分的這個溝通像昨天張智倫委員他有邀請我出席這個公聽會其實我收到的時候我說哇糟糕因為我母國馬來西亞的國會議員到台灣來我那個時間點人在這個"},{"start":5026.721,"end":5027.622,"text":"副副副副副副副副"},{"start":5045.1,"end":5060.518,"text":"對!我都很謝謝大家在這個區塊的這個努力。就是說我們怎麼樣讓我們這新住民的這些法案能夠更加的完善。我想在場的所有委員應該大家心裡應該是希望是這樣子的。尤其行政院已經給了我們一個時間表。"},{"start":5061.96,"end":5065.363,"text":"這個會期就會送到立法院來那為什麼我們不等大家一起進來之後再來做充分的這些討論雖然我們每個委員其實提的東西都有一跟同可是我都覺得說都很值得來做討論"},{"start":5080.234,"end":5080.855,"text":"四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":5101.568,"end":5125.935,"text":"這空談一場嗎?我就覺得說,我就覺得這不是一個很好的這個方式啦。所以我這邊也希望說,呃,召委主席這邊能夠理解,其實我們都希望說,立法會更加的完善才是對新住民致福。以上謝謝。好,謝謝羅美玲委員發言。呃,黃學文,呃,我們有提案委員說這個,所以我再給您一點時間好嗎?好,謝謝。"},{"start":5129.463,"end":5151.386,"text":"謝謝張偉那我想要補充一下啦因為我希望大家在發言的時候不要抹煞其他委員的努力因為我相信今天願意坐在這邊來一起審查這個新住民相關法案的所有委員不分黨派都是非常有心的這個是一定大家都有很有共識而且是大家有共同一致的目標所以我也不希望說在發言的時候好像要"},{"start":5151.826,"end":5153.448,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":5170.909,"end":5183.575,"text":"審出一部有實質效果然後真的能夠保障新住民權益的一部法律那其實這個法條裡面啊大家的版本真的蠻多歧義的如果去看就會知道說光是這個對象的範圍然後要叫要什麼樣的單位其實都有不同的看法"},{"start":5190.779,"end":5191.82,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具 «新住民基本法草案案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":5207.733,"end":5235.038,"text":"對其實都有在草擬當中所以我還是希望我們行政部門拿出立場拿出態度就如劉部長上禮拜在總質詢答覆的時候應該就是答覆麥玉珍委員說你們有在草擬中了希望把這個版本送出來之後我們再做實質的討論因為大家目標都一樣我還是希望再次強調大家的目標都是希望這個法要送出去絕對是沒有問題的只是等我們的布送到院會之後"},{"start":5236.358,"end":5250.426,"text":"趕快來讓我們實質審查院版那大家才有共識那伸出一步真的可以有實質作用的法律才能真的保障新住民的權益這個是最大的目標感謝"},{"start":5252.147,"end":5275.545,"text":"好 謝謝黃婕委員的這個說明在邱正軍委員提案說明之前我來先跟大家報告幾件事情第一件事情其實大家對於新住民的權益來說真的是非常的關心這個關心包括蔡英文總統她在8年前的選舉也這麼說過一直到賴清德總統當選了以後也都這麼說過所以"},{"start":5277.967,"end":5304.36,"text":"前面的8年跟現在其實我們來回顧一下在民眾黨111年6月份第6會期的時候其實就有新住民基本法的草案然後這個案子也送交付內政委員會要審查但是一直都沒有排進來然後羅美玲委員在112年的時候第8會期自己在做召委的時候其實也"},{"start":5305.04,"end":5319.929,"text":"由草案然後也開過一次公聽會在112年的12月4號所以他非常關心那個時候羅美玲委員就呼籲行政院趕快要有版本進來所以也就是說新住民的權益"},{"start":5321.849,"end":5342.036,"text":"從111年一直到112年在立法院其實就一直被談論一直也交到內政委員會但是比較可惜的是沒有排進議程裡面來討論那麼我有幸身為一個原住民族的立法委員我在這裡當召委所以我也非常關心新住民的權益"},{"start":5344.657,"end":5346.899,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":5367.714,"end":5395.71,"text":"在委員會裡面既然已經交付審查了我們立法委員其實就可以對我們自己提出的版本來進行討論所以今天我已經開過一次公聽會然後有兩次的這個包括今天有兩次的這個條文的逐條審查既然大家都來了我相信也都那麼的認真那我們的逐條審查其實會加速行政院版本送進來"},{"start":5396.69,"end":5412.565,"text":"我相信是如此所以大家有一個非常好的良性的互動跟良性的尊重我覺得對未來的新住民是好的我相信在場的委員們應該都同意我這樣的說法好嗎那我們現在先請提案委員來這邊說明一下他的提案謝謝我們請邱振鈞委員"},{"start":5419.713,"end":5442.811,"text":"是不是邱政軍委員提案說明完了之後我們就開始來主條然後大體討論這個主條討論一下好不好謝謝休息好我同意我接受趙偉吳趙偉的建議我們休息一下好謝謝請好謝謝主席給我補充做提案說明的機會那各位委員大家好新住民已經是我們國內第三大的族群"},{"start":5443.251,"end":5444.733,"text":"主要不同在於強調保障基本權利以下我從四個方面來說明第一個"},{"start":5460.216,"end":5484.143,"text":"保障基本權利與實現社會公平新住民是我們社會的重要成員應該享有與本國國民相同的基本權利然而在實際生活中卻往往因為身份而面臨各種歧視與不公平的對待本席在第四條增加權利的保障規定在第九條第一項增訂文化權利的保障"},{"start":5485.043,"end":5498.241,"text":"第十條第一項徵定教育權利的保障。第十四條第一項徵定工作權利的保障的規定。完整的本法的制定。那第二項是"},{"start":5499.164,"end":5515.672,"text":"促進社會和諧與穩定新住民的融入對社會和諧與穩定至關重要通過保障新住民的基本權益和必要的支持可以促進他們更好地適應融入本地社會增加他們的歸屬感和參與感促進社會的和諧與穩定第三"},{"start":5520.274,"end":5538.52,"text":"擬合社會的差距,實現長遠的發展。新住民往往面臨語言、文化、還有經濟等多方面的困難,影響生活品質和發展的機會。制定《新住民基本法》,政府可以提供適當的支持和幫助,擬合社會的差距,實現長遠的社會和經濟的發展。四、符合國際人權標準與履行國際義務。"},{"start":5545.862,"end":5574.439,"text":"台灣作為國際社會的一員應該遵守國際人權標準保障新移民的基本權利制定新住民基本法就是履行對國際社會的承諾展示台灣人對人權保護和社會正義的這個重視那在這邊剛剛也聽到非常我們委員大家都非常的支持這個法案那在這邊也希望大家盡快的來溝通並完成審議通過三讀為新住民提供更好的生活發展和這個環境"},{"start":5576.18,"end":5577.061,"text":"實現社會的公平與和諧。"},{"start":5600.191,"end":5604.616,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":5615.691,"end":5617.372,"text":"現在就是希望時程推進"},{"start":5633.51,"end":5641.135,"text":"三、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":5658.217,"end":5684.41,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":5710.519,"end":5716.201,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第16會期內政委員會第17會期內政委員會第17會期內政委員會第18會期內政委員會第18會期內政委員會第18會期內政委員會第19會期內政委員會第19會期內政委員會第19會期內政委員會第"},{"start":5729.889,"end":5730.83,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":5748.236,"end":5751.538,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":5764.107,"end":5764.547,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":5791.374,"end":5810.209,"text":"我覺得如果這樣的話,我們之間某有的選民的保障沒有問題,我們還可以再去調查一下,然後等他們趕快來我們最後,我們最後也要把它修完再去審查。這樣子一個月的那個時尚就是到明年了啦?"},{"start":5810.749,"end":5819.552,"text":"三、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具"},{"start":5835.518,"end":5853.627,"text":"我覺得走走看,沒有爭議的人比較快,如果真的有爭議很多,那我們商量,看怎麼處理,要等院板還是怎麼樣,如果爭議比較少,可能時間上來得及,我要等院板進來就可以趕,有機會達成共識的話,那就沒那麼大壓力,如果說真的期限很大,沒有辦法達成共識的話,那就是保留結賬,院板併進來結賬嘛。"},{"start":5861.412,"end":5863.775,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":5877.094,"end":5893.343,"text":"我還在正前面講講黨團全家庭都可以進來就好像原住民不進保庫場那個吳立華他不信任國會他也會進來因為你這個案所以不會是這樣子可是我是想說他們的版本一定要進來的"},{"start":5895.404,"end":5898.666,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":5917.774,"end":5934.949,"text":"因為今天我們現在的爭議是法律的名稱的對象我想問一下 因為當名稱的對象沒有辦法決定的時候是不是很難忘記我覺得還好 你看後面很多條文"},{"start":5943.857,"end":5953.209,"text":"對阿,因為我們是要新住民基本法,也要保障,我們不是要,我們要有義務,不是只有就是保障權利,我們是來這邊不是要跟大家搶"},{"start":5963.041,"end":5990.323,"text":"新住民基本法草案案。五、繼新住民基本法草案。五、繼新住民基本法草案。五、繼新住民基本法草案。五、繼新住民基本法草案。五、繼新住民基本法草案。五、繼新住民基本法草案。"},{"start":5991.924,"end":6007.375,"text":"兇悍發言劉慶祿今天就把他關了。因為大家都沒有共識的姿勢。因為我估計因為大家都沒有共識的姿勢。因為說實在,大家保障這些新住民他們的權益,我講好一點。"},{"start":6010.797,"end":6038.362,"text":"一、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新"},{"start":6039.002,"end":6043.725,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":6064.839,"end":6070.141,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":6090.528,"end":6094.293,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6106.909,"end":6115.991,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":6130.879,"end":6136.361,"text":"我沒有唱的是說我很尊重,因為上次我有跟他講過,他說叫我不要那麼拍他。"},{"start":6156.387,"end":6165.291,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":6177.998,"end":6192.709,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":6195.191,"end":6210.668,"text":"副鄉,你們兩個是新住民要副鄉啦,都是自己的啦,什麼我們這裡的人會替你們的地鐵抽屎啦。應該是更要團結才對啊。好啦,不過,等一下讓他討論有意見的。"},{"start":6216.628,"end":6220.673,"text":"六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6232.253,"end":6258.747,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬"},{"start":6263.495,"end":6284.854,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。五、繼"},{"start":6294.807,"end":6312.176,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6314.268,"end":6331.518,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":6350.998,"end":6361.538,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6395.077,"end":6421.436,"text":"審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6425.725,"end":6455.668,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。七、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。八、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":6461.104,"end":6463.333,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":6501.114,"end":6502.475,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":6516.038,"end":6537.446,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6543.467,"end":6570.593,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6571.613,"end":6591.996,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":6594.318,"end":6600.885,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":6610.554,"end":6628.099,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6636.601,"end":6641.346,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":6659.122,"end":6665.026,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6691.628,"end":6695.592,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6702.84,"end":6709.449,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6718.44,"end":6731.638,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6735.584,"end":6738.386,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":6756.7,"end":6780.86,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第"},{"start":6789.824,"end":6806.516,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":6809.618,"end":6814.923,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":6832.66,"end":6835.782,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":6861.825,"end":6864.988,"text":"還算時間等院本就是時間壓一壓,譬如公認6月底之前送進來"},{"start":6888.041,"end":6904.865,"text":"我先確定他那個有,我等下去商量,沒了沒了商量還有13個還有23個還有23個還有23個還有23個還有23個還有23個"},{"start":6916.167,"end":6917.549,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6931.827,"end":6941.551,"text":"二十五、二十六、二十七、小五、八十五、八十五、八十五、八十五、八十五、八十五、八十五、八十五、八十五"},{"start":6961.739,"end":6967.684,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":6983.796,"end":6987.179,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":7000.831,"end":7006.475,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":7016.261,"end":7026.908,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":7043.299,"end":7060.233,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":7061.774,"end":7066.577,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":7087.426,"end":7093.328,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":7115.896,"end":7139.889,"text":"六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":7141.21,"end":7145.692,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":7161.5,"end":7165.081,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":7183.107,"end":7203.314,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":7208.475,"end":7211.437,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":7235.314,"end":7238.297,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。五、繼"},{"start":7413.13,"end":7428.443,"text":"我們現在繼續開會我們從第5條開始第5條有民進黨團的提議有張智倫委員的提議有蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員是第4條"},{"start":7432.057,"end":7454.586,"text":"五條是台灣民眾黨團和國民黨團的提案,還有張智倫委員提案,然後蘇巧慧委員的第四條,然後邱正軍委員的第六條。大家有什麼意見,然後看一下文字,我們一起討論。我這個就是一個人會說的。那太好了。在哪裡?你有給我一份嗎?在這裡。我都把它整理起來了。謝謝。"},{"start":7459.651,"end":7482.321,"text":"有沒有提案的委員說明一下第五條大概就是說跨部會首長會議的召開民眾黨團是行政院為了要審議協調本法相關事務只要是涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌必要的時候他是可以召開跨部會首長會議然後要會同各目的事業主管機關來辦理然後國民黨黨團的這個"},{"start":7488.064,"end":7505.036,"text":"前條設立前行政院為審議協調本法相關事務,涉及各目的事業主管職位應該跟民眾黨是差不多。第四條書巧會委員是說,行政院應該要設立新住民會報。"},{"start":7506.497,"end":7528.796,"text":"然後要研議、然後要協調、還有推動本法相關事務。前項彙報的組成,還有它的任務,或者是其他應遵行的事項是由行政院定之。那王美惠委員的提案是行政委員委審議協調本法相關事務,必要的時候應該召開跨部會首長會議。"},{"start":7530.217,"end":7553.576,"text":"沒有寫得這麼清楚,但是呢,大概是跟民眾黨就是要召開跨部會的會議。然後邱正軍委員的提案是跟國民黨團跟還有民眾黨團大概文字是一致的。請問一下我們的委員有沒有什麼意見?在說明沒有,我們請這個相關部會來回應一下好嗎?"},{"start":7556.723,"end":7557.724,"text":"是由移民署嗎?謝謝署長。"},{"start":7571.512,"end":7592.35,"text":"對,第五條,跨部會首長會議的召開。是,我們的建議是說,這個,未來我們希望就是說,在行政院的新住民事務協調會報,我們來提升這個層級,來加強它的功能。我們建議是由院長將來來召集來主持這個協調會報。"},{"start":7597.602,"end":7597.982,"text":"行政院委審議協調本法相會書"},{"start":7613.317,"end":7633.078,"text":"原住民匯報然後這些組成他的任務要遵行事項由行政院定制都是行政院不是講院長是都是行政院那行政院因為我們覺得說已經有新住民事務協調匯報嘛那現在有的委員是說要增加就是說所謂的這個跨部會的這個首長會議吧"},{"start":7634.119,"end":7652.346,"text":"你們目前沒有嘛,是不是?對,我們目前沒有,但是我們是建議以,就是不必跌床駕屋啦,就是用這個協調匯報,但是我們提升他的這個功能嘛,就是把召集人成績也拉高。那你的召集人會是誰?"},{"start":7653.806,"end":7671.632,"text":"我們是希望說可以將來可以由院長來建議院長也不就是行政院了嗎所以你應該是說在第5條裡面你沒有什麼意見嗎只是說在委員的提案或者是國民黨團的提案或民眾黨團提案要不要寫得更清楚啊"},{"start":7672.452,"end":7700.371,"text":"所以既然您剛剛署長您講說你們已經有個匯報了那你希望這個匯報現在馬上提撐提撐呢他的首長是由院長他來召集其實就跟這第5條的意思是一樣啊那你能不能講一下你說你現在已經有院版院版現在的意思是怎樣雖然你還沒送進來能不能聽一下布的版啦這是布的版我們現在是布的版所以你們只有內政部的版沒有行政院的版嗎是是"},{"start":7702.539,"end":7726.309,"text":"對阿,好來請部長說明,謝謝請部長。報告召委跟各位委員,有關於很多委員所提出的這個第5條的部分,當然是想要提升層級,但是我跟各位委員報告一下,我們現在的這個設置或設計的部分以權益保障為主的話,也就是未來在內政部,會變成是設一個專門的機構。"},{"start":7728.61,"end":7743.786,"text":"而不是一個跨部會的協調委員會那既然不是一個跨部會的協調委員會的狀如果是原來這個委員所提出的版本是一個跨部會的協調委員會的話除了內政部可能包括勞動部、教育部、文化部等等環境部全部都要進來"},{"start":7745.288,"end":7760.827,"text":"那樣的層級的話可能就是要到行政院譬如說是行政院院長或副院長或政務員來當召集人但是如果未來是一個專責的機構他既然是專責機構的話他要編相當的預算變成是一個常態化的預算的分配"},{"start":7761.448,"end":7790.404,"text":"那如果你支持一個協調委員會,我們協調出來以後,這個教育部去做,這個內政部去做,這個勞動部去做,這樣子的話呢,在照顧新住民的權益上面呢,恐怕比較會在績效上面會打折。所以有關這方面的設計的話,可能要請各位委員參考,在審查上面的話,是不是有兩個不同的這個想像,或是兩個不同的這個層級設計上面,哪一種對新住民的照顧會最好,請各位委員參考,謝謝。"},{"start":7791.53,"end":7809.42,"text":"好 謝謝 請黃婕委員然後張智倫委員謝謝部長 謝謝署長謝謝主席因為剛剛聽完部長的說明其實發現部長說完的這個如果有專責機構的這個治理的層面跟權益的實質的程度會比原本這個更好"},{"start":7810.04,"end":7837.563,"text":"那因為其實我們因為我們現在就看不到院版所以我不知道說在這個專責機構相關的文字上面到底是什麼所以我原本對照的是巧惠委員的版本然後我提的一個修正動議那我是放在第4條然後是把這個協調匯報放進去然後行政院我是把說行政院院長要來召集所有的專家學者新住民代表跟相關部會以及地方的組成我也是寫到要跨部會啦只是說我就是把"},{"start":7839.164,"end":7858.325,"text":"寫成原本的行政匯報而已那其實我聽起來後來的如果院版如果後來的院版是更好的那應該要請院版有相關的文字這樣會比較好參考那我還是表達一下我原本修正動議的意思啦就是說在剛剛部長還沒有說明之前我是照原本的這個進行協調匯報"},{"start":7860.848,"end":7867.74,"text":"入法寫出文字,並且要有跨部會的代表,甚至是地方的政府以及新住民的代表全部放進來。"},{"start":7875.609,"end":7876.35,"text":"好 吳釗緯 再回"},{"start":7905.849,"end":7926.661,"text":"有一個有目的事業主管機關執掌那必要時才要開跨部會首長會議所以還是要拜託部長這邊就是這個我覺得是可以符合就是現在已經進行的一個方式就是說有必要時才要跨部會不是一直都要跨部會所以拜託一下所以我認為這條是很重要的謝謝"},{"start":7928.37,"end":7952.728,"text":"好 謝謝 那請吳昭偉好 昭偉現在我們審議的第5條第5條裡面全條委員會設立前行政院為審議協調本會相關的事務那我們4月29我們第4條就已經保留了所以這個問題我們是不是第5條那你也會很尷尬好不好"},{"start":7955.731,"end":7976.031,"text":"所以我想說真的應該有行政院辦進來我們誰因為因為新住民我們在座每個人都非常注重因為新住民的權益我們都會支持因為大家選期都有選期的壓力講實在的但是你一個條文你沒有去把它"},{"start":7977.032,"end":7984.399,"text":"規劃好、設計好你未來我們要面對全國的民眾這一點希望召委能聽得進去好 謝謝謝謝吳召委那事實上我剛剛就是希望在場的委員們能夠依據我們今天的開會的討論"},{"start":7996.63,"end":7999.011,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":8019.341,"end":8021.302,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":8042.037,"end":8044.779,"text":"提案委員們提出他們版本的看法"},{"start":8064.571,"end":8090.143,"text":"第6條有台灣民眾黨團跟國民黨團的提案第6條。然後張智倫還有王美惠委員的第6條。蘇巧惠委員的第5條。邱振軍委員的第7條。然後在第12頁我們翻開一下第12頁看一下提案委員有沒有什麼要再說明的。或者是其他的委員有一些要提出修正動議的部分。"},{"start":8092.947,"end":8113.199,"text":"好,我們請劉許廷委員。這個部分談的是主管機關,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。第一個,抱歉,第6條部分,我剛剛忘了提,有許新英委員的版本,還有劉許廷委員版本,那許第6條的修正動議。"},{"start":8115.845,"end":8139.474,"text":"謝謝主席我跟大家做個報告因為主管機關我們當然都希望中央有新住民事務委員會這部分我們就不再贅述但我們提的修正動議是這個跟地方政府有關因為地方政府當然我們希望有專責單位這是理想中的狀況但實務上像以我桃園為例基本上我桃園的這個局處基本上屬於滿邊的一個狀況所以有些地方政府不見得能夠有這個餘裕去做新住民事務局"},{"start":8140.094,"end":8166.754,"text":"所以我們在法條修正提出修正動議相對的做了一點放寬就是說設置專責單位或專一單一服務窗口如果友善而且有餘裕的你就成立新住民事務局嘛如果不行的話你至少會有匯報也好或者是單一服務的窗口也好它一樣要有新住民事務的統整這樣子的一個功能我想這樣子基本上也容納了各個委員的版本我覺得是稍微周全一點的說法所以希望大家支持這個修正動議以上謝謝"},{"start":8167.622,"end":8191.5,"text":"好,非常謝謝。我們也歡迎一下傅坤祺總召,今天也在我們的這個條文的審查當中,謝謝。好,請問一下其他委員有沒有其他的意見?那如果沒有意見,我們是不是也請相關部會是部長,你要不要來說明一下在您的內政部的版本裡面,是不是希望也在我們的地方政府要設立大英窗口?"},{"start":8192.634,"end":8193.955,"text":"主管機關主管機關新住民委員會"},{"start":8215.332,"end":8235.144,"text":"所謂的未來的新住民委員會說話但是在我們的部裡頭所提的版本呢我們把它列為說主管機關就是內政部那內政部呢他會去統籌跟權益保障相關的其他的部分然後放在這個法律的條文裡這個條文裡面包括說新住民的定義"},{"start":8236.004,"end":8236.284,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":8254.312,"end":8255.433,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":8270.209,"end":8283.751,"text":"所以主管機關在各個委員的提案裡面列的是新住民委員會因為第一個他還沒有存在所以我不敢幫他們說話但是在內政部我們的設計的原來的條文的版本是這樣子提供給各位參考謝謝"},{"start":8285.831,"end":8313.152,"text":"你問一下部長目前來講你說主管機關是在內政部然後內政部然後你們希望就是你們也沒有明定那個跨部會的會議是院長或者是誰來主持這個會議然後這是第一個我想問的第一個問題第二個就是是不是就現在新住民所有的預算裡面也會統合在你所講的主管機關這裡面還是他還是分散在"},{"start":8313.692,"end":8316.374,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":8338.619,"end":8340.761,"text":"主管機關是內政部,涉及各目的事業主管機關,還是目的事業主管機關要辦理?"},{"start":8363.36,"end":8388.193,"text":"不是不是應該是這樣子在前端的部分如果說各目的事業主管機關沒有辦法辦理的很好他們認為是新住民的權益保障的話就會回歸到我們的這個所謂的未來如果有新住民的專責機構來幫忙辦理那因為現在各目的事業主管機關譬如說勞健保的部分他一定要有中華民國國民的身份那這之前怎麼辦這之前的話就是內政部會來統籌辦理"},{"start":8389.614,"end":8389.754,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":8406.809,"end":8426.062,"text":"就是說是一個新住民委員會未來委員會的召集人是誰他只會把所有的工作就分散給各個部會然後各個部會按照各個部會的職權去處理就沒有一個人在執行層面上面處理這塊事情我想我們在設計的時候是用這樣的方式提供給這個召委跟各位來參考"},{"start":8427.323,"end":8453.556,"text":"請問一下部長,你們要提這個法案的時候,你們有盤點一下相關的預算嗎?因為在這個新住民保障法裡面,其實事實上跟他的預算也很…是,現在的新住民基金是10億,那到目前為止呢,我們大概用的大概是4億左右。所以有6億沒用完啊?"},{"start":8457.291,"end":8475.721,"text":"對用多少因為他是基金所以是用多少補多少那未來如果有成立一個專責司的話不管是人員的調派或者是預算上的支持的話我們就會按照這個通過的法再跟行政院要求他要增加進來對這是可以辦理的因為這是新增法律所以你講的專責機關是"},{"start":8478.134,"end":8480.575,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具新住民基本法草案案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":8504.158,"end":8524.41,"text":"對,我們希望他成績可以提升那他的提升會是什麼樣的提升法?按照布裡頭的建議他提升到跟司一樣的成績所以只有司而已嗎?喔,司的成績非常的高司的成績非常的高所以這個司你們的名稱還不知道因為行政院他要跨部會來審議"},{"start":8529.206,"end":8551.316,"text":"我們現在這個民眾黨團的黨編也來了,歡迎黃國昌委員,謝謝。剛剛應我們民進黨柯建民英俊瀟灑的總召的要求,我們要先休息一下,然後討論一下,好不好,謝謝。休息五分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":10759.282,"end":10759.303,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":10761.138,"end":10789.354,"text":"好 非常謝謝 大家都非常的辛苦大家對於新住民的權益法案呢這個大家都非常的認真那我們現在因為三個這個黨編和總召都到現場了我們兩位內政委員會的召委也在現場然後內政委員會甚至於不是內政委員會的委員也非常關心此案那麼現在呢我們就是先請那個柯總召來跟我們說明一下他剛剛我們這個協調的時候他的想法謝謝 有請柯總召 謝謝"},{"start":10795.239,"end":10812.801,"text":"主席、各位委員、同仁今天我撐起來這個地方就是希望我們這個有關於新住民權益保障或是新住民基本法能夠就是第一個就絕對不降低沒有什麼可以大家互相收割都沒有"},{"start":10813.562,"end":10828.476,"text":"只要共同來成就這樣的法案,大家共同來照顧新住民。我們知道新住民的人數現在已經非常多,所以我們中美委員以及蔓越村委員,還有我們本黨很多委員,"},{"start":10835.1,"end":10849.603,"text":"老實巧會等等大家做提案這代表什麼?代表大家都關心這個議題而且時代走到這個時候這已經是新的議題而且用照顧的思維來看待"},{"start":10851.725,"end":10876.276,"text":"我今天來的時候,特別在走廊等召會,我們大家來協商一下。因為行政辦還沒進來,等行政辦進來的時候,我們必然審查。當場也有副總召,也有吳創部長、張宏慧也在場。我們在走廊裡面先協商一段時間。"},{"start":10878.41,"end":10906.343,"text":"那現在大家我以為這樣大家講好就是說等新的行政版進來的時候我們那時候沒有想到說我保證齁這個下一期已經有完整三途那現在有新的變化了說本會期完整三途剛剛洪錄跟我講我說這好啊因為也跟麥醫生談過大家都談過本會期完整三途那現在有什麼事情大家都講很清楚嘛我說這個是比較好的方式而且大家"},{"start":10907.463,"end":10932.693,"text":"都都不動氣我第一次跟黃國昌正面可以講話這很難得的經驗那請大家收起演出的笑容大家要笑平的來講好不好那就是這樣嘛剛才也三兩兩邊都講好了但是到最後要決定就要先朝野鄉結論"},{"start":10934.113,"end":10961.12,"text":"第一個行政院在下禮拜四6月20號送進來要不要通過送進來這一點行政院做得到因為為什麼啊因為在審新住民法有關新住民基本法或權益保障法的時候在4月29號委員會有個做決議等5月底以後趕快先政府趕快送版本來來併然審查這是委員會做決議這很好啊"},{"start":10962.028,"end":10983.07,"text":"那由部長司吳衛寧才上台嘛上台以後他如果如圖再趕這個法案我相信他很負責的但是行政院議的法案要賦予各部會所以我們快馬、嘉賓在下禮拜四、行政院議要衝起來就大家一起來"},{"start":10984.147,"end":10986.529,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":11001.218,"end":11024.915,"text":"有至少五到六次時間可以來審法案。這有什麼好處?我覺得行政院版本進來和大家所有版本並然來看的時候,對照表馬上出來。我相信現在所存在的問題,第一個法案名稱是《基本法》或《審議保障法》。第二個定義上面就不一樣。第三個人員、經濟等等,還有很多相關的配套。"},{"start":11026.036,"end":11050.63,"text":"行政牆且完整因為我了解很多草案就是有人自己寫或是什麼或是因為一公告的時候很多委員就拿來抄所以這個到最後版本是什麼已經因為通關版本才是正式版本所以常常會發生這樣結果行政正在在路上的時候大家一公告的版本就抄了抄了以後就趕快排審"},{"start":11051.63,"end":11069.403,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":11075.587,"end":11081.173,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":11096.309,"end":11123.712,"text":"放下彼此對立的心結,重新建立一個新夥伴的關係。我們讓立法院在這個民主法案上面,大家可以好好談。那現在,這個方式是最好的方式,我只要可以的話,大家簽朝委協商,商人黨派人家簽。那,忽然之餘,郭董召先走。剛才,黃國柳才問他,他說,他可以接受這個案子。那這個球,就在黃董召身上嘛。我希望就是說,大家合而共。"},{"start":11124.622,"end":11139.293,"text":"因為也快12點,待會我有一個會要開,假如都同意的話,趙偉求在你身上,只要今天不出委員會的時候,後續都可以出議。今天出委員會會發生什麼問題?"},{"start":11141.587,"end":11167.433,"text":"因為今天只有今天一天而且版本名稱要用什麼處委員會沒有人敢一定保留處委員會很多不一樣的東西也一定會都沒有結論所以行政院辦進來的時候7月份你要開3次6次都可以開到6次好好討論也許大家連接的時候兩三次就結束因為對照表一出來嘛對照表一出來很簡單嘛然後假如都誰都"},{"start":11170.434,"end":11185.304,"text":"讓他談好,估計協商處委會也隨時可以排。就是要協商處委會的話,排除曹煒祥一個月冷凍期,壓7月16日,至少7月16日要完成三度。因為這個本會議看到7月16日,"},{"start":11188.186,"end":11214.045,"text":"接下來副議案也要進入委員會,還有總執行。但是大家都有一個共識,比較重要的法案一定要在7月16日以前把它完成,比如說打詐、釋法等等。包括本委會已經前兩天通過了海洋保育法,那也是等著要排嘛。都是那些委員會的法案嘛。打詐、釋法也要跟委員會有關係嘛。"},{"start":11216.187,"end":11223.602,"text":"就是炸雞危害防治法所以我到這裡肯定要拜託大家"},{"start":11225.324,"end":11251.267,"text":"這個時刻在這個時刻不是朝野追憶的時候這個時刻是展開立法院是可以有一個可以溝通管道大家可以坐下來談而我非常珍惜我和黃國昌委員在法院前同事過去四年沒有跟他私下講過話到今天第一頁接觸那我希望黃國昌委員你能成就到他這個因緣以上報告"},{"start":11251.752,"end":11267.341,"text":"好,非常謝謝柯總召剛剛的發言但是我也要講我雖然是召委但是我也要尊重一下要尊重一下在場內政委員會委員的這個決議好不好好,謝謝我們現在請黃國昌總召來回應謝謝謝謝召委老實說不是內政委員會的委員在這個過程當中做這種程序發言"},{"start":11281.195,"end":11309.177,"text":"我自己啦覺得不是那麼的妥當但既然趙偉有邀請那就感謝趙偉我想剛剛在討論的過程當中問題非常的清楚新住民基本法是非常多委員關切而且希望推動的法案在4月29號的時候其實就已經排審也進入實質條文的討論了"},{"start":11311.872,"end":11334.419,"text":"那今天再度再排新住民基本法參加內政委員會的委員我剛剛稍微甄選了一下大家都希望今天召委已經按照議程排了法案了那大家就按照各個委員所提出來不同的版本來進行審議來進行討論"},{"start":11337.543,"end":11362.31,"text":"上一次在4月29號討論的過程當中也給了行政院機會行政院如果要提出他們法案的版本的話那就請提出來那召委事實上也等了一個多月的時間那希望能夠一起來討論但問題是等待不是永遠的等待不是永遠的"},{"start":11363.53,"end":11391.383,"text":"在立法院各個委員會法案審議的過程當中從來沒有一個規矩說行政院沒有提出版本我們的法案不能討論那如果這個規則建立下去的話那事情會變得非常的嚴重也不堪想像那是不是未來任何法案行政院拒絕或者是不願意或者是遲延提出他們法案的版本"},{"start":11392.003,"end":11408.949,"text":"那各個委員會委員所提出來的法案版本就沒有辦法進行實質的審議跟討論那因此我是突然啊被找到內政委員會來的然後說這邊有一些程序上面的事項要討論但我剛剛聆聽了"},{"start":11410.61,"end":11427.769,"text":"我剛剛聆聽了,我也尊重我們黨團賣一針委員的意見也請教了一些委員他們的看法認為今天召委竟然已經排審了而且也不是第一次審查那就在委員會裡面針對不同的版本"},{"start":11428.45,"end":11454.846,"text":"不管內政委員會其他的委員還是我們的行政部門大家有什麼高見就可以一起來討論全部都納入會議記錄當中沒有道理說今天已經開始的內政委員會針對新住民基本法的討論就突然的終止不再進行下去我想應該是沒有這樣子的道理當然"},{"start":11456.067,"end":11478.226,"text":"我們不是內政委員會的委員那應召委的邀請來這邊發表一些程序上面的看法那接下來整個議事的進行我們就尊重尊重召委會議的主持以及在內政委員會裡面委員、多數委員大家共同的意見跟看法以上"},{"start":11480.626,"end":11483.507,"text":"好,非常謝謝黃國昌總召,我們請柯建民總召,好,還有一些意見,好,謝謝。"},{"start":11496.079,"end":11514.878,"text":"來講真話比較重要啦講結論比較重要大家可以看出來到底要不要把這個草案好好討論而且能夠圓滿完成而且草也都可以如期完成這很簡單的事情嘛第一個政任黃莊委員你怎麼那麼造詣就很可惜要不要額頭再造詣"},{"start":11516.795,"end":11543.927,"text":"程序委員在開會程序發言誰都可以來發言不是這個委會的人就是說常常在這裡的時候館長一堆人都佔領然後開始程序發言司法法制委來經濟委會來程序發言都沒有等下程序發言沒有所謂的委會每一個人都是立法委員每一個立法委員都可以來這個審議法案羅美玲請問"},{"start":11546.388,"end":11573.539,"text":"這個進行調查的時候也有程序的問題也有遷移的問題這都可以這議事會都很清楚齁黨的領域很敏大黨的領域雖然在不同委會只是差該委會與他表決權而已這是第一個第二個也不存在黃光所講的沒有行政案的版本你以為他們都不能審不存在的那常常也有比如說那個不當黨人條例有沒有沒有嘛很多坦白講齁"},{"start":11575.76,"end":11601.74,"text":"那就是說為什麽常常有行政院的案子會被丟到?因為大家會很輕鬆,大家作為野極公主們要看嘛,你會結束以後有提出一條法案嘛。所以於是從行政院異公告的版本大家會抄嘛。我剛才講黃國昌委員,你那個所謂的親民政案審的,最好是委員會審的。本來是科技政策啊,你把它改為行政副公告。所以那種還是抄行政院異公告的版本嘛。所以大家不要再講,"},{"start":11603.641,"end":11619.776,"text":"不要說穿嘛!你都知道啊!你也是台灣人真的很辛苦的,要寫名譜、要問證等等。所以,法案的A級樣也必須存在,有公民們的問題。這個講穿就是這麼一回事。所以今天,我比較誠懇還是講說,"},{"start":11622.018,"end":11649.455,"text":"既然副主席總召同意今天不出委員會那什麼事情都好談我們會馬上來就請他大概來簽一個協商結論也就是說草案協商本來就可以排除冷凍期一個冷凍期這絕對沒有問題第二個7月16號以後以前已經要完成三度不然有不同條件也要表決"},{"start":11650.536,"end":11674.347,"text":"第三個,當然最關鍵的,今天大家一直討論沒有關係,高中委員,你說這一個關鍵,你是最關鍵的人,只要不出委員會,因為你一出委員會,到底哪一個版本明天都不一樣,所以那個版本怎麼要回頭來併呢?所以這個是關鍵,請大家善思好不好?以上所講的,都是不改革問題。"},{"start":11676.428,"end":11698.778,"text":"這是民生法案,沒有什麼不相迷惘,也不是說誰想有什麼功勞可以收割,我們議會法委員很重要做自己,不要整天在政公委跟我做事,我比較支持委員者。好,非常謝謝柯總召在這邊的補充說明,謝謝您。你今天特別冷靜齁,沒有在這邊,這個。"},{"start":11702.423,"end":11713.05,"text":"二、繼續審查新住民基本法草案案。三、繼續審查新住民基本法草案案。"},{"start":11726.46,"end":11740.801,"text":"謝謝我們的柯總召這樣子好不好因為現在已經11點45了我們大家已經到討論到第6條了那我們還是繼續來審因為現在是兩個層次我覺得委員會裡面的程序我們還是讓他走完然後至於"},{"start":11741.522,"end":11741.702,"text":"第6條保留"},{"start":11759.531,"end":11760.652,"text":"羅美玲等委員第4條,委員蘇巧慧第7條。"},{"start":11782.659,"end":11801.567,"text":"我們剛剛保留了好不好對剛剛內政部長也幫你們已經有說過了好不好第6條謝謝我們現在來談劉美玲的提案第4條委員蘇巧慧提案第7條王美惠提案第5條大家來看一下他在第1313頁"},{"start":11805.626,"end":11830.174,"text":"有沒有委員要提一下?羅美玲委員是說政府應該在每年針對新住民總體支持事項檢討並改進,它的內容應該要包括幾項,在這邊。然後蘇巧惠委員的提案是說,新住民委員會要擬定新住民事務發展計畫,然後要經行政院核定的時候,"},{"start":11838.296,"end":11852.64,"text":"政府推動新住民事務的依據前項計畫的擬定要考量新住民的特殊性跟權益,然後四年檢討一次。美會委員的提案是說,新住民委員會應該要考量全國新住民"},{"start":11853.2,"end":11856.483,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":11869.255,"end":11882.652,"text":"都差不多只是巧惠委員跟美惠委員是用條例來羅列然後美玲委員的還有幾個這個事項講得比較清楚請黃婕委員謝謝"},{"start":11885.407,"end":11904.84,"text":"好 那我這一條是針對美玲的第4條跟巧慧的第7條來對照提出修正動議那我的修正動議的重點就是要把經費的來源跟分配以及其他的相關事項還有成效的分析都放進去所以我的文字是比較長一點的"},{"start":11906.101,"end":11934.329,"text":"那這個是我對照其實是主要是對照僑會的第7條大家可以看一下我認為主要還是經費啦就是經費的來源跟如何分配應該要把這個計劃的內容裡面要寫清楚是很重要的以上建議謝謝所以黃婉婕委員的提案就是這個修正動議是跟這個羅美玲委員比較相近就是把她的相關寫得非常的清楚好請問一下其他委員有沒有意見"},{"start":11936.937,"end":11942.706,"text":"我們來聽一下相關部會的意見是請移民署署長來說明一下,謝謝"},{"start":11952.521,"end":11973.463,"text":"跟各位委員報告,剛剛已經有提到這個訂定新住民的支持或發展計畫這個部分,因為這是克與新住民委員會的一個權責,剛剛我們前面新住民委員會那個條文已經保留了,那是不是這個部分我們也建議是保留?"},{"start":11975.462,"end":12000.68,"text":"其實署長不好意思這個部分其實是講說他要做什麼事情其實跟那個也沒有關係所以他只是想講得非常清楚而已所以你認為美玲委員巧惠委員美惠委員還有黃婕委員他們所包括黃婕委員的這個修正動議你支不支持呢這幾個部分你比較偏向支持美玲委員還是巧惠委員的還是美惠委員的"},{"start":12002.185,"end":12021.972,"text":"還是你有什麼文字要修正還是把他們幾個委員的版本放在一起來文字修正因為這個其實是跟他有沒有那個是沒有關係的主席主席他剛才回答這樣覺得很親切"},{"start":12030.845,"end":12031.666,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":12047.226,"end":12072.418,"text":"謝謝昭緯給我們這個機會跟大家來做一下報告就是說我們原來在那個部裡頭審查的時候希望設一個專責機構那對於各個委員所提出來的這個修正動議其實都可以納為參考但是既然要納為參考的話就必須要回復到以前我們所說的我們要設專責機構還是設委員會因為設委員會的話呢它是刻以跨部會"},{"start":12073.519,"end":12073.699,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":12090.501,"end":12105.227,"text":"就好像說我們在定這個新住民的這個權益保障法的時候呢其實跟司法或是法治單位也有一點點不太一樣那但是呢我們會願意把各位委員的意見呢做一個收整之後呢然後做一個比較完整的版本"},{"start":12106.067,"end":12133.384,"text":"因為如果沒有完整的版本就是上面的架構沒有出來下面的完整版本的話你要賦予誰的權責如果是新住民委員會然後主管機關委員會的召集人是行政院長還是政務委員這個我們就不敢做確定但是如果未來的權責是在內政部的話呢我就可以在這個地方跟大家講說未來我內政部可以處理的權責範圍可以做的權益保障跟基本的保障範圍在哪裡可以做比較明確的說明以上"},{"start":12138.196,"end":12140.899,"text":"其他相關委員有提出說明嗎?"},{"start":12152.313,"end":12178.625,"text":"李英委員蘇巧惠第4條蘇巧惠委員第7條美惠委員第5條這個條文大概都是在講就是說在第13頁裡面然後政府這個羅美玲委員的版本是說政府應該要每年針對我國新住民總體支持事項檢討並改進他的內容應該有這樣子那麼多那蘇巧惠委員是說新住民委員會"},{"start":12179.825,"end":12205.372,"text":"應該要擬定新住民事務還有發展計劃經行政院核定的時候作為他還有講到經直轄縣市政府推動新住民事務的依據然後全項計劃的擬定要考量新住民的特殊性跟權益然後四年檢討一次那個王美惠委員的意的意見也跟這個他只是沒有講說這個在在各地方"},{"start":12206.232,"end":12231.426,"text":"直轄縣市要推動的依據。黃婕委員是跟羅美玲委員比較像,但是我剛剛要回應一下部長還有署長的意見就是說,其實不管你是在專責經過或者什麼,其實這些事情都是他們要做的嘛,那其實這個條文應該跟前面我們所保留的應該不會有相關的很大的衝擊。"},{"start":12233.147,"end":12255.732,"text":"只是在希望你們在這個這個討論的時候應該要怎麼樣然後比較有有一點意見的就是要四年檢討一次不管你未來有沒有成立這個專責機關或者是我們有一個原民會其實這些他都是不是原民會是新住民這個委員會他都必須做這些事情嘛對不對以上是我的補充說明請慢一針委員待會是牛錫廷委員"},{"start":12261.603,"end":12262.263,"text":"總體支持四項檢討並改進,羅美玲委員的那幾項,您都同意嗎?"},{"start":12285.168,"end":12292.462,"text":"我們現在請那個游許廷委員我看他 我是還蠻 我覺得修正東西部分還不錯啊因為把內容寫得很清楚嘛 那"},{"start":12293.877,"end":12317.3,"text":"新住民支持政策的基本方向。第二、於各領域的具體措施。第三、成效分析。第四、經費來源分配。第五、支持相關事項。這五項不管是專責機關,不管你想是內政部下面的師,或者是有機會來成立專責新住民委員會,我認為這幾項都是要做的啦,都是要做的。但是我覺得是不是可以再做個再修正啦,就是把"},{"start":12318.421,"end":12345.199,"text":"這個特殊性跟權益然後每幾年檢討修正的條文納進去啦就等於兼採羅美玲委員跟這個蘇曉慧委員的版本的好的地方嘛就把它寫出來那我覺得這個東西其實跟到底前面是不是專政機關沒有直接相關難得有個條文大家有共識可以通過你看我們今天討論的意義就在這裡嘛所以我是覺得是不是可以做個再修正把檢討其實放進來然後我們這一條就終於有個共識可以通過而不是送保留協商以上謝謝好 請羅美玲委員謝謝召委"},{"start":12348.862,"end":12369.402,"text":"謝謝各位委員的支持,當初我會第4條這裡說,會把它擬定為每年,是其實希望說每一年都有滾動式的這個改進,每一年都有滾動式的這個檢討,其實就像剛剛趙薇所講,其實我擬定的,裡面的內容其實很多,其實我們"},{"start":12370.363,"end":12371.744,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法》案。五、繼"},{"start":12386.275,"end":12389.118,"text":"新住民支持具體的措施的時候,要邀集相關學者、專家和民間團體代表列席陳述意見,您堅持嗎?"},{"start":12407.135,"end":12424.087,"text":"這個部分的話,就看行政單位再執行起來的話,會不會有困擾。比如說,因為有些可能他們修就可以了,如果你還要大費周章找專家或民眾團體,每一個點都要這麼做,可能會有困難,所以還是要聽聽行政單位的意見。好,我們聽聽行政單位,署長還是部長要回應?"},{"start":12427.12,"end":12434.427,"text":"沒有意見羅美玲委員意見沒問題所以我們現在來決定一下黃婕委員跟羅美玲委員的12345都一樣只是要邀集相關學者專家美玲意見跟黃婕委員如果你們沒有意見的話"},{"start":12457.126,"end":12467.671,"text":"其實只是增加了嚴明制定或檢討新住民支持具體措施時,得邀集相關學者、專家和民間團體代表列席陳述意見。"},{"start":12474.852,"end":12500.974,"text":"暫定第6條之一因為對我們順著條文下來的第6條之一好謝謝議事人員提醒羅美玲委員的第4條蘇巧慧委員的第7條美惠委員的第5條以及黃婕委員的修正動議然後按照這幾位委員的提案還有修正動議我們把它改為第6條之一"},{"start":12503.437,"end":12531.4,"text":"暫定第6條之一然後大家看一下這樣子的一個文字修正所以現在是要要在第6條之一是要加入嚴明制定這個邀集相關學者專家還是按照黃婕委員的就不這個邀集專家去整所以黃婕委員是沒零意見好好非常快現在呢我們這個第6條之一我們就按照羅美玲委員的"},{"start":12532.08,"end":12533.843,"text":"提案修正通過。"},{"start":12539.534,"end":12542.735,"text":"羅美玲等22人提案的案子通過。現在處理羅美玲委員提案第5條,還有蘇巧慧委員第8條。"},{"start":12565.448,"end":12582.242,"text":"羅美玲委員我們不要休息好不好不好意思我們還是要宣告一下我們中午就不休息我們把它討論結束因為這樣還會留時間給我們的三黨去討論一下今天的決議來剛剛講是第幾頁第14頁"},{"start":12588.035,"end":12608.84,"text":"第14頁羅美玲委員第5條為了嚴明制定或檢討相關支持的事項政府應該要每5年進行調查其實跟剛剛那有一點像你一定計劃並且要將調查結果公開在網路美玲委員這5年是不是比較長一點?蘇巧惠委員是2年"},{"start":12611.878,"end":12612.078,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":12629.093,"end":12635.157,"text":"它是調查啦擬定計劃跟前面的跟前面其實是不太一樣前面那個的話就是說它是屬於比較針對於這個就是你要去就是具體措施你要就是擬定具體措施它這個是屬於比較屬於調查的這個部分那五年的話時間比較能夠看得出這個變化兩年的話有時時間太短還看不到它這個整個整體的這個變化這跟前面其實是不太一樣的"},{"start":12658.612,"end":12683.813,"text":"所以我們再看一下那個文字喔,不好意思,僑會委員的是為了嚴寧前條所定的新住民事務還有發展計畫,他要特別講事務跟發展計畫,然後政府要每兩年進行新住民社會經濟調查,有寫得非常清楚就是社會經濟調查,然後把它公佈結果,但是美玲委員的就是"},{"start":12684.594,"end":12702.188,"text":"只有擬定計劃,然後相關支持的事項這個部分,然後要把公開於網路。但巧惠委員有特別講到新住民的社會經濟調查,所以巧惠委員跟您的可能這方面就是比較不一樣。"},{"start":12702.788,"end":12725.415,"text":"我們請鴻祿 剛剛鴻祿委員有舉手 不好意思 待會再美玲委員我覺得這一題當然有點不一樣啦這一條但我覺得我個人是 我們先決定幾年啦這個幾年比較容易處理啦我個人也是支持五年啦你其實兩年變化不大啦這樣子的調查在勞民傷財所以我個人也傾向五年好 再請美玲委員"},{"start":12730.578,"end":12731.338,"text":"新住民事務及發展計劃及社會經濟調查"},{"start":12749.181,"end":12762.431,"text":"的確是我們是比較贊成是五年一次啦因為兩年的時間有的時候真的是第一個這個調查工作也很繁複然後變化可能也不大啦這個部分是這個樣子然後再來是"},{"start":12771.741,"end":12790.646,"text":"我們建議的有一個文字,就是說每5年辦理新住民的生活狀況、工作狀況、衛生醫療及各項照顧服務措施,然後供這個需求狀況來調查,然後並應出版或公布調查研究結果。"},{"start":12793.753,"end":12821.294,"text":"你是這樣子的話那其實我覺得因為我們的上一條第4條是通過羅美玲委員的因為計畫上面上前一條就計畫了你看到了沒有他有新住民支持政策的基本方向我國新住民支持政策於各領域中的具體措施相關具體措施的成效分析新住民支持經費的來源跟分配其他新住民支持相關的事項所以這相關的事項其實就是"},{"start":12822.034,"end":12822.935,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":12843.679,"end":12866.401,"text":"徐宇甄委員的第8條有明確寫出新住民事務跟發展計畫進行新住民社會經濟調查我覺得這個比較完整的說出我們希望做的部分因為羅委員的版本沒有寫得那麼的仔細所以是不是可以把它兩個併在一起"},{"start":12868.522,"end":12876.046,"text":"因為巧惠委員今天沒有在但是呢就是看看大家有沒有意見兩個文字要怎麼修訂我們是原來的是生活狀況調查其實也就包括了他剛所講的生活狀況其實就包括了社會經濟調查嘛是不是還有發展計畫也在裡面了是嗎是"},{"start":12896.678,"end":12897.919,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":12917.025,"end":12917.645,"text":"公開與網路、是不是應該是網站?"},{"start":12942.978,"end":12966.287,"text":"來網站跟網路請問一下這個羅美玲委員您的看法因為這是要通過您的這個這個我是做可以做文字修正對網站對網站來第6條鎮定鎮定鎮定的第6條之二調查的結果公開於網站把那個路把它改為站好嗎我們就按照這樣子"},{"start":12968.783,"end":12969.764,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":12982.773,"end":12992.102,"text":"二、繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":13002.516,"end":13017.674,"text":"第7條有民眾黨團和國民黨團的提案。然後委員的提案是張智倫等委員王美惠的提案第7條。蘇巧惠委員提案第6條。邱振軍委員提案的第8條。我們看一下第14頁。"},{"start":13021.594,"end":13047.379,"text":"這是設置發展基金還有它的來源然後民眾黨的是希望由中央政府循預算程序的撥款然後民間的捐款然後相關的法令規定的撥款還有其他收入等充資那國民黨團前項的基金來源由中央政府也是一樣循預算程序撥款民間捐款然後是跟民眾黨團是相近的"},{"start":13050.439,"end":13077.345,"text":"張智倫委員的版本要設置新住民發展基金,基金的運用辦法用新住民事務委員會定資。全項基金來委也跟國民黨團一樣。巧惠委員的版本是推動新住民和他的子女以及家庭照顧、輔導、服務、人力資源培訓和發展建構多元文化。"},{"start":13078.965,"end":13104.528,"text":"有效整合政府以及民間的資源,特別要設置新住民發展基金,然後新住民發展基金的收支保管運用辦法是由行政院來定資。然後,美會委員的版本也是,它是依照相關法令規定的撥款和其他收入,也是由中央政府循預算程序撥款。"},{"start":13105.469,"end":13114.712,"text":"二、繼續審查中央政府預算程序。三、繼續審查中央政府預算程序。四、繼續審查中央政府預算程序。四、繼續審查中央政府預算程序。四、繼續審查中央政府預算程序。四、繼續審查中央政府預算程序。四、繼續審查中央政府預算程序。四、繼續審查中央政府預算程序。"},{"start":13133.971,"end":13150.358,"text":"好 謝謝我的問題是因為現在還沒有確定到底是司還是委員會所以在這邊機構的部分是不是先不要寫明或者是說看內政部有什麼建議那我認為訂基金是很好的我覺得這一條應該要訂好 謝謝我們請劉學廷委員基金部"},{"start":13168.294,"end":13172.499,"text":"所以您在您的意思是說在"},{"start":13176.119,"end":13180.447,"text":"第一項的後面是不是由新住民委員會這邊就寫專責機關還來請美會"},{"start":13188.271,"end":13203.787,"text":"好 我們先聽劉雪芹委員她的建議她的建議就是說就是把那個新住民事務委員會這些名稱就是把它改為專責機關或者是主管機關我們請這個哪一位要來主計總處好 我們請主計總處謝謝"},{"start":13217.071,"end":13243.797,"text":"主席各位委員大家好主席總處這邊說明一下這邊有關提到基金收支保安運用辦法的訂定因為我們預算法21條其實已經有提到說政府設立的特種基金它的收支保安運用辦法由行政院訂之所以我們這邊是建議說直接回歸到預算法21條的規定訂定就好了不用在這一個新住民基本法或是權益保障法這邊來訂定之這是第一個建議"},{"start":13245.037,"end":13264.427,"text":"第二項這邊有提到說有委員提到說基金的來源由政府循預算程序之撥款等等那因為新住民基金其實是94年他就設立了那他的運作一向就是由政府循預算程序來撥款協助他運作那目前運作的機制也沒有什麼摯愛"},{"start":13265.347,"end":13268.011,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":13281.869,"end":13301.392,"text":"召外界去質疑說你跟財政紀律法規定說設基金應該要有具有國庫撥補以外新政事主裁員的一個這樣子的要件所以我們是建議說第二項的部分有關基金來源的部分就是回到現有的這個撥補程序來辦理就好了就是不用另訂第二項以上說明"},{"start":13302.637,"end":13311.041,"text":"好我們謝謝這個代專門委員對於基金的部分你的說明那剛剛講到新住民事務委員會由機關那個事由署長來回應嗎"},{"start":13314.469,"end":13332.526,"text":"對,因為剛剛劉許廷委員有特別講就是說那個部分的文字他的基金的運用辦法是由新住民事務委員會定之嘛那現在是說新住民事務委員會因為名稱還沒有定所以是不是專者機關或主管機關"},{"start":13333.743,"end":13355.382,"text":"所以所以我們我們是不是這一條我是看起來是覺得說書小會委員這個版本我們是比較覺得跟現狀也配合我們也做得到然後這個書小會委員的這個這個目前的這個泥的吼跟"},{"start":13357.338,"end":13382.953,"text":"看起來他第二項也提到是由行政院定之,跟剛剛主席總書的意見也是一致的。就是他的發展基金的收支、保管和運用辦法是由行政院定之。對對對。但是呢至於這個名稱是由這個專政機關或主管機關。就暫時在這邊,這邊就也不必提了。就不必提。對。要設置新住民發展的。好,我們看一下蘇巧慧委員的條文是,"},{"start":13383.593,"end":13400.621,"text":"為了推動新住民跟他子女以及家庭照顧、輔導、服務、人力資源培訓,還有發展建構多元文化社會,有效整合政府還有民間的資源,特別要設置新住民發展基金會。然後沒有會"},{"start":13402.862,"end":13421.556,"text":"新住民發展基金收支的保管還有運用的辦法由行政院定之。請問一下這個其他委員的這個張智倫委員你有提案然後民眾黨團的提案對第6條我們看一下蘇巧慧委員的第6條第15頁"},{"start":13430.488,"end":13431.249,"text":"主任你還有意見嗎?對,來請說明"},{"start":13433.806,"end":13460.636,"text":"我這邊再補充一下,因為預算法21條其實已經有明定說政府設立的特種基金收支保安用辦法由行政院定制了,所以原則上蘇巧惠委員的版本第二項其實也不用再重複訂定,就是說你只要賦予這個新住民基金目前有一個設置法源,在這個那個新住民基本法有一個設置的法源就好了,不用再提到說收支保安用辦法由行政院定制,回歸預算法21條就可以了。"},{"start":13463.868,"end":13479.339,"text":"不用第二項,可是第七條我們就是在講設置發展基金還有它的來源呢?是不是寫一下也沒有影響到嘛?對不對?寫上去應該也沒有影響到嘛?"},{"start":13481.181,"end":13481.701,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":13498.757,"end":13527.514,"text":"你是代專門委員嗎所以其實呢有沒有寫是無所謂嘛對不對不會有影響到啦但是如果我們按照前面我們有很多條文是保留的我們這邊還是把它留下來可能會好一點啦大家的意見依蘇巧惠對巧惠委員的條版本對好不好好羅美玲委員謝謝莊委員等一下我們請羅美玲委員再需一貞委員對不起謝謝"},{"start":13528.314,"end":13552.126,"text":"我是比較支持蘇巧惠委員的版本因為蘇巧惠委員的版本其實就是涵蓋現在我們移民署做的事項因為他這個基金不單單只有獎勵的部分其實他在人力資源培訓的部分其實做的也很多所以比較符合現況所有版本裡面我看是巧惠委員的這個部分是比較OK的謝謝美玲委員來請徐宇珍委員"},{"start":13553.807,"end":13582.406,"text":"因為根據張智倫委員跟我們黨版的部分因為我們裡面有提到的是政府會賠利新住民推動本法第10條第11條、第14條、第15條跟第17條的事務跟獎勵措施可能跟這個蘇喬惠委員的這個他的陳述有一點有點不太一樣那是不是我們的部分請問一下這個陳述在蘇喬惠委員裡面的有增加跟沒有的部分我補充一下我們的第10條是講學術啦"},{"start":13583.947,"end":13612.621,"text":"他這個裡面講人力資源培訓是沒有錯這個部分是有重疊但是我沒有特別講學術研究的部分那11條是語言推廣14條是弱勢關懷這個有沒有問題15條是媒體禁用媒體禁用權然後16條是文化交流這個也有所以至少在學術的部分語言推廣的部分跟媒體禁用的部分看是不是用文字的方式補充在喬惡委員的版本裡面讓他敘述是完整的那這個法條精神我們黨版精神有被確保我想應該也是一個可以"},{"start":13613.101,"end":13640.347,"text":"至於說單位跟辦法我們倒覺得心態可以開放只要行政院可以好好用主要是這個基金的用途可以被明確的定義我想這個法條就有意義謝謝牛許廷委員說的因為我們第10條、第11條、第14條、第15條跟第17條剛剛因為牛許廷委員有特別來說明一下了就是沒有的部分是不是用文字把它列上去然後在巧惠委員的版本裡面我們來看一下"},{"start":13641.047,"end":13669.452,"text":"那是不是這請請請我們的議事人員來看一下有剛剛那個劉許廷委員有講是不是可以再講一遍你們的有哪一些是要增加的我們的第10條是鼓勵學術發展所以鼓勵學術研究學術的部分這是巧惠委員版本沒有的吧對對對學術好然後11條是11條是無障礙語言環境無障礙語言的部分語言環境"},{"start":13671.749,"end":13693.905,"text":"來請醫生員這個有了嗎好再來第14條呢14條應該有14條是關懷弱勢弱勢有沒有關懷弱勢有了照顧不老服務嘛應該就應該可以啦好第15條15條媒體禁用媒體禁用所以我們要增加媒體禁用對關懷補助然後第17條實際上應該是寫錯應該是16條啦喔16條"},{"start":13698.246,"end":13706.574,"text":"十六條是公共參與跟多元文化交流建構多元文化社會應該OK建構多元文化社會公共參與是要另外再加進去"},{"start":13717.558,"end":13734.739,"text":"來看一下文字這個修正文美玲委員主席我想請問一下就剛好沒有提到一個學術研究就是本法第10條學術研究我想我想了解一下說他的學習研究是一個怎麼樣的一個方式對他到底是要針對的"},{"start":13736.201,"end":13751.592,"text":"因為新住民他的來源果非常的多不像說原住民我們就是就是固定的族群客家有客家可是我現在就是說新住民他來自這麼多的國家而我們的所謂的學術研究是類似怎麼樣的一個"},{"start":13753.593,"end":13773.391,"text":"一個方式我比較疑惑一點這可能是不是提案委員要幫忙說明一下我們來說明一下國民黨團由牛維文來學術第10條是這樣寫就是說獎勵新住民學術研究鼓勵大專院校設立新住民學術相關院系系所學位學成發展跟後職相關知識體系那我覺得OK啦比如說政大民族系"},{"start":13773.931,"end":13798.289,"text":"他當然就跟這個是有一定的相關他如果要推一個相關的新住民的學程有20個學分的這樣子的一個模式能不能得到一部分的補助我想這就是具體的一個模式可以做參採我想這個量體應該不會大因為是像畢竟是少數族群但是還是有學術現場應該還是有一些針對新住民的做研究的一個部分看是不是能夠佐以鼓勵跟支持以上好 請問一下美玲委員"},{"start":13802.898,"end":13824.346,"text":"我們現在歡迎巧惠委員就提案委員本人到了現場我們現在針對你的第6條然後我們大家都覺得你的這個第6條都蠻好的所以呢看一下有一些增加的部分請問一下巧惠委員我們看一下這個文字我覺得是這樣子我可以馬上加入沒有問題"},{"start":13827.065,"end":13843.297,"text":"我本來這樣寫的原因是因為是從家庭嘛然後到公共這樣的狀況那到最後你看是社會建構多元社會然後整合政府跟民間資源坦白講啦你現在紅字的這幾行我都不反對但是老實講就是"},{"start":13844.502,"end":13859.743,"text":"你寫這些了之後那還有沒有其他的這就跟每次我們在訂法律的概念是一樣就是說你寫得越細那到時候大家解讀出來就會越有說那其他的呢沒寫到的是不是還算在裡面呢"},{"start":13860.484,"end":13885.73,"text":"所以我們當時寫的時候不會說只有在沒有把它寫得那麼細而是說你看第一個部分是家庭嘛對不對然後第二個部分是人資的部分然後馬上就到社會然後到政府跟民間資源的目的是在於這樣因為等於這一些你說國際學術發展、無障礙語言環境、媒體經驗、公共參與權其實你也可以都把它說就是整合在民間跟政府資源裡面了"},{"start":13886.73,"end":13909.076,"text":"我覺得我學習到的這個在寫法律法條的這個文字的時候對為什麼我原版為什麼會這樣寫沒有把紅字我先再次說明紅字我都不反對我都不反對只是你寫越多後面未來的人不是今天坐在這個會議室的人就會開始解讀沒有寫在這上面的那還是不是呢等等會有這樣的問題所以所以我這個建議讓大家參考一下"},{"start":13915.288,"end":13940.642,"text":"好,非常謝謝喬惠委員的這個提案的說明部分以及他他沒有不支持這個紅字的部分啦他也支持就是說就是說是不是如果寫這麼多的話未來我們還沒有想到的是不是要再寫進去請問一下蔓依珍委員所以我們可以寫疑其他對新住民的相關的事務啊對不對對啊,就寫疑其他因為我們這個要訂這個法齁其實我們說實在是要讓政府"},{"start":13944.764,"end":13973.794,"text":"替新住民多做一點事情所以這裡面最重要的就是有效整合政府及民間資源嘛那我們的目的是什麼我們是構建多元文化社會所以你只要有這兩句在裡面的話你世界所有的紅字的和未來我們還可以想到更多的其他其實都應該可以你只要解釋的時候讓他可以解釋在裡面通通都合用啊我會覺得這樣的空間反而是比較大的會不會符合尤其今天在座有兩位新住民委員在這裡齁"},{"start":13974.834,"end":13991.348,"text":"會不會這樣其實是更能夠保障大家的權益,未來解釋的空間更大。好,來我們請一下這個相關部會次請這個移民署嗎?你來回應一下這個文字第7條。好,請部長,謝謝。"},{"start":14001.934,"end":14019.68,"text":"謝謝各位委員的關心我相信聽了很多委員對於這一條或是相關的修正動議的說法我認為說那個委員蘇巧慧所提的這個提案比較能夠符合在法律上面第一個就是說它的涵蓋面它是用一個概括性的方式來陳述"},{"start":14021.321,"end":14021.441,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":14037.863,"end":14053.36,"text":"有關於設置新住民的發展基金,理論上如果你要設置在官方單位的發展基金或是基金的話,它的相關的收支、保管及運用辦法確定是由行政院定資,而不是由所謂的新住民委員會。"},{"start":14054.221,"end":14083.421,"text":"因為新住民委員會到目前為止還沒有經過三讀通過而且他委員會成立以後呢他還是要有一個這個基金的收支保管運用辦法還是由行政院定之也就是說財主單位所提到了按照預算法21條裡面所寫的這個部分的話呢目前為止呢我覺得蘇巧慧委員她的提案呢更能夠符合我們各位委員在提出所謂的預算或者是包含的範圍裡面呢比較有效能夠在未來執行"},{"start":14085.823,"end":14099.918,"text":"謝謝部長,預算的部分剛剛已經講完了,現在就是只針對第7條的部分,就是有一些那個想要服務想要去發展的這些部分,可能再多寫一點文字,因為這些文字應該你沒有意見吧?"},{"start":14100.919,"end":14124.231,"text":"那現在就是看大家這個我可以精簡一下啦我們剛剛商量就是媒體禁用公共餐飲跟文化交流其實跟多元文化社會概念是一樣的所以這一把整併進去但我是覺得學術發展跟午餐的語言環境是可以值得重點投入的嘛因為你新住民要做出一些成績我覺得在這部分有所作為應該是大家都同意的面向這樣比較簡單然後重複的概念我們都盡量做整合啦"},{"start":14124.431,"end":14150.582,"text":"那我再補充我接著許婷補充一下我覺得如果要無障礙語言環境的話因為此時此刻我們立法的現在113年民國我覺得無障礙語言環境我們可以考慮就是比較是一個亮點這樣可是比如說好了我們用鼓勵學術發展好了那你新住民家庭子你為什麼不鼓勵體育發展為什麼不鼓勵技藝發展為什麼不鼓勵其他發展你光是寫一個鼓勵學術發展"},{"start":14152.843,"end":14172.65,"text":"我剛參加完畢業典禮我們不是鼓勵適才適性嗎為什麼特別寫一個這個所以我的建議是如果許廷宜那個女委員覺得說後面OK了可以融入的話那我是建議要不要留無障礙語言環境特別強調我是覺得學術發展好像反而有點偏"},{"start":14177.011,"end":14191.931,"text":"因為你看人力資源培訓及發展其實就在鼓勵學術發展裡面了啊對不對你鼓勵各式各樣的都是人力資源培訓發展了嘛好請問一下美玲委員跟蔓玉珍委員你們兩位很重要我們想聽你們意見我是"},{"start":14194.222,"end":14213.516,"text":"我剛剛有發言了,其實我是支持巧惠委員的,因為比較符合現行無障礙委員,多加這個無障礙委員無障礙其實他就是鼓勵多國委員的意思啦,現在也是很積極鼓勵在座這部分的話我是還蠻支持啦,所以你去提我也這個部分"},{"start":14214.016,"end":14216.759,"text":"三、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":14239.139,"end":14239.479,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":14254.632,"end":14255.093,"text":"請內政部確認"},{"start":14271.212,"end":14299.926,"text":"那等一下,我們請念這部分確認之前,我們也請麥玉珍發表一下您的說明。對,因為剛剛美玲委員有提,因為我們非常尊重你們兩位。好,因為我們是要增加每一個項目就是,大家就是,沒有不同的意見嘛。所以我想說,如果這樣子的話,我們就及其他有助新住民發展之事務,就把它放進來,就是相關就可以了嘛,對不對?你準備是放在哪一個文字後面?"},{"start":14300.746,"end":14329.609,"text":"就在第7這邊的第7條在哪裡為了推動新住民與其子女及家庭照顧輔導服務人力資源培訓以及發展無障礙語言環境建構多元文化社會的後面對不對對對對然後您再說明一下就是及其他有助新住民發展事務"},{"start":14330.71,"end":14356.227,"text":"發展知識物發展知識物這樣是不是就比較不會有爭議比較彈性啦就不會說把所有的項目都加進來這樣其他有助新住民發展知識物其實有加跟沒加是OK的有加的感覺更清楚一點就是其他沒有講到的都在你這邊這個文字上面"},{"start":14357.372,"end":14383.334,"text":"好 我們請那個署長來發表一下您的看法就是剛剛有講到就是沒有文字名列上面的你們是不是都在做?其實剛剛講那個鼓勵學術研究其實我們現在基金其實每年也都有在都有嘛都有在辦因為是那個就是說跟新住民議題的一些研究那這個每年都有在做事實上"},{"start":14385.175,"end":14402.088,"text":"所以那個學術加不加沒問題但是其他有助新住民發展無障礙語言環境我覺得我們現在也做同意服務那是不是寫無障礙語言環境到底是你的文字應該怎麼寫比較符合你現狀"},{"start":14404.949,"end":14426.565,"text":"我的想法是通譯服務就可以了通譯服務通譯服務跟無障礙語言環境好像是不太一樣一個叫做無障礙語言環境那通譯只是在現場的時候有人來幫你幫你翻譯而已這兩個可能不太一樣喔因為循序漸進嘛"},{"start":14428.426,"end":14431.528,"text":"今天我們其實是在修法跟立法就是希望能夠更清楚啦"},{"start":14450.691,"end":14450.751,"text":"主席"},{"start":14474.315,"end":14500.528,"text":"因為我現在的意思就是說,他裡面意見包含很多啦,感覺有需要再寫這個啦,你的意見是怎樣啦?其實是,原來的文字幾乎都包括在內的啦,我覺得啦。好,等一下這個,蔓玉珍委員,如果說是您看一下,他的子女還有家庭照顧、輔導、服務、人力資源、培訓,"},{"start":14502.634,"end":14522.767,"text":"是不是都已經包含了你們剛剛最後那一句說有助新住民發展的事物?對,就不用了,只是多一個無障礙語言環境,還有建構多元文化社會。"},{"start":14525.834,"end":14529.336,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法》案。五、繼"},{"start":14553.856,"end":14573.402,"text":"趙書巧會委員提案版本,然後修正通過。好,繼續我們來看一下羅美玲的提案第6條,委員書巧會委員的第10條,王美惠委員的第9條,邱振軍委員的第4條,他在第16頁,大家看一下。"},{"start":14576.613,"end":14595.627,"text":"美玲委員的第6條這個是對於語言的部分還有民俗慶典和文化價值的部分來看第6條這個條文就是請委員參酌一下如果有意見的話請舉手有一些說明好嗎"},{"start":14598.976,"end":14617.283,"text":"秋政軍委員第4條是說新住民享有憲法保障的各項基本人權應該不受歧視、排擠、剝奪或限制然後政府對於不同國籍或地區的新住民行政措施要一律平等這個是權力保障"},{"start":14618.343,"end":14635.429,"text":"邱政軍委員的第四條是權力保障我們請邱政軍委員說明我們是站在人權的基本立場上來定這樣的一個法律因為我想因為新住民有因為國籍的問題有些會受到排擠"},{"start":14636.229,"end":14664.162,"text":"那我們希望在這個條文定下去之後能夠在實現法律面前人人平等的原則以這個社會發展做出貢獻實現多元文化的和諧共存這個目的那我們當然是希望這個部分不要因為來自不同的國家而受到不同的待遇我想這個應該是法律之前人人平等這個一定要把它"},{"start":14665.122,"end":14668.225,"text":"三、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":14693.822,"end":14719.09,"text":"這部法律在一開始的時候審查的時候我從上一次就是在問我們到底是要用基本法還是是要用權益保障法也就是作用法這個差別會在這一條就會完全顯現出來了大家可以看一下這個以羅美玲在第16頁羅美玲委員的版本裡面是政府應提供這些多元文化及語言宣導以增進民眾對不同文化"},{"start":14720.41,"end":14722.332,"text":"政府應尊重政府應尊重政府應尊重政府應尊重政府應尊重政府應尊重政府應尊重"},{"start":14747.99,"end":14768.291,"text":"寫法到底要是什麼因為包括像邱正軍邱委員這邊喔那這個部分這到底是一個什麼樣的狀況我覺得文字的落款會完全不一樣所以這邊的話我具體的建議就是好那大家討論完一輪以後可能要稍微保留一下"},{"start":14769.701,"end":14793.515,"text":"好 謝謝 邱政軍委員其實對您的條例應該也不堅持嘛因為其他委員的都是應提供或應尊重是是是 他有提到啦 這個就是立這個法的時候是權益保障法還是基本法所以這個應該是要先把它訂出來齁對我們來說後面推對的那我們先保留啦好不好不是我們前面基本法還是作用法根本已經保留了"},{"start":14794.855,"end":14797.096,"text":"羅美玲委員第6條、蘇巧會員第10條、王美惠委員第9條、邱正軍委員第10條"},{"start":14815.561,"end":14840.779,"text":"現在來審查第8條有民眾黨團和國民黨團提案第8條張智倫委員第8條、蘇巧慧委員、邱正軍委員第9條大家看一下這個部分是有關於國家考試增訂新住民事務科目的部分國民黨的第8條是推動新住民的文化發展張智倫委員是推動新住民的文化發展"},{"start":14842.22,"end":14860.797,"text":"僑會委員國家考試設立新住民相關類科因應新住民公務需求。秋政軍委員保障文化權利跟推動新住民文化發展,尊重保護新住民文化權利。"},{"start":14862.799,"end":14887.075,"text":"前項重點發展就要任用一定比例的新住民的導覽人員他是比較導覽人員然後介紹跟推廣新住民語言以及文化他的任用規則是由中央主管由主管機關定制然後在前兩項的業務在第四條委員會設立前施行然後要協調移民署來配合辦理我們剛剛"},{"start":14892.518,"end":14919.264,"text":"我們剛剛在第4條的部分是有保留所以提醒各位委員然後請各位委員來說明一下羅美玲委員像我自己的版本我就張智倫委員他有提到要發展那個北中南東的這新住民文化重點發展區我這部分我沒有我沒有我的版本裡面沒有這個那當然我有看到民眾黨民眾黨的大概也是麥毓珍委員提的"},{"start":14919.884,"end":14946.892,"text":"張智倫也沒有提其實我們大概很清楚為什麼我們沒有放這一個因為像這個我想他這個可能是參考客家基本法客家基本法裡面有提到說政府應該在北中南東這個設立這個客家文化重點發展區他把他拉進來了可是像客家他有客家莊那也許原住民原住民還有部落可是因為新住民他是散居的"},{"start":14947.532,"end":14948.513,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":14962.571,"end":14967.212,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民國家文化》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民國家文化》案。"},{"start":14992.965,"end":15007.132,"text":"第8條羅委員您版本好像是沒有對不對你沒有放這一條好沒有放這個東西解釋就剛剛那個OK好謝謝那民眾黨團蔓玉珍委員"},{"start":15008.473,"end":15013.478,"text":"您只有在考試上面,也沒有北中南東?對,我們是沒有去分,我們沒有去分說北中南東,但是照現在目前我們的文化部的話,就是對於,文化部都以就是新住民,不是那個美學館,也是有分張紙北中南東來去服務新住民,都有這樣,可能是因為"},{"start":15033.956,"end":15057.496,"text":"我們這邊的委員想說是不是有這個概念所以才提這樣我這邊我就沒有去限制好我們請喬惠委員好謝謝主席我覺得這個因為行政作業的關係那我們這個議事人員把這幾條通通放在這個格子裡面但其實這是完全不一樣的事情民眾黨的這個提案跟我本人的第9條"},{"start":15059.177,"end":15065.96,"text":"對是比較像那我如果是民眾黨版跟我自己的版本的話我會建議麥委員是不是可以參考一下我寫的條文呢因為我們兩個在講的應該是一樣的事情但我的條文吼我有主詞就是政府政府因你看你們的版本裡面吼這個好像可以加一下"},{"start":15078.325,"end":15082.026,"text":"政府應於國家考試,設立新住民事務相關類科,以因應新住民公務之需求。那你的後面的第二行開始,有助於提升重視、增進公務人員,這些本來就是這部法定了以後要做的事情了,其實沒有寫我覺得應該完全沒有問題。"},{"start":15104.89,"end":15132.271,"text":"所以我覺得我們兩邊是比較接近的那建議可以採用我的版本但是反過來國民黨版以及張智倫委員版本的和邱俊勳委員的版本他們在講的是一樣的事情就是在新住民事務當中要不要設置北中南東的文化重點發展區等等那我是建議大家是不是可以參查一下剛剛羅美玲委員的意見因為他人家他新住民委員真正在這裡生活這麼多年很清楚的剛剛告訴我們"},{"start":15133.232,"end":15155.174,"text":"新住民跟台灣目前的客家族群原住民族群不太一樣他們不是依在台灣生活的北中南東來區分而是依他們的母國文化來做族群的區分所以羅委員剛剛的建議具體是說這條是不是就不要放那請大家斟酌一下我剛剛提的兩個意見"},{"start":15161.636,"end":15179.2,"text":"民眾黨跟僑會委員的版本因為你們在後面都有講到就是考試的部分你們是針對考試部分他要針對這個條文要放的時候其實會有點困難所以就把那個張智倫委員跟國民黨因為他們後面也都有"},{"start":15179.48,"end":15184.082,"text":"政府應與國家考試。最後一項是政府應與國家考試增訂新住民事務相關類科以因應新住民公務之需求。最後一項是政府應與國家考試。"},{"start":15202.512,"end":15204.494,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":15225.914,"end":15232.516,"text":"政府應於國家考試設立新住民事務相關類科以因應新住民公務之需求。"},{"start":15244.17,"end":15272.378,"text":"我這邊謝謝剛剛我們主席的分享把這條文弄得更清楚因為我這邊當時提這個的原因是因為我希望說這個很多的新住民他可能需要不要就是都侷限在某一區啦所以我當時才想說是不是涉北中南東的重點發展區那這部分我是不是可以請行政單位可以來說明一下好我們請行政單位來說明一下是誰考選部有意見你有什麼意見"},{"start":15274.096,"end":15296.742,"text":"所以你就是針對北中南東那個有意見嗎?好,那請問署長這個北中南東現在你們的這個執行的狀況是怎樣?在北中南東都有新住民文化發展重點區嗎?這個的確是有一點困難,因為...可是目前有沒有?因為剛剛麥玉珍委員說好像說北中南東跟美學館有..."},{"start":15298.769,"end":15298.909,"text":"張智倫委員"},{"start":15327.066,"end":15340.433,"text":"我覺得我們這樣,我們給行政單位更大一點的彈性。然後第二個是內容的部分,因為我們的第9條,國民黨黨版跟民眾黨黨版第9條都在談語言跟文化交流。那把這個鼓勵設置重點文化區有沒有,把它納在第9條裡面。第8條我們就簡單一點,就單講國家考試,這樣比較有共識,好不好?"},{"start":15344.215,"end":15367.134,"text":"好,好,請問一下這個在場的委員,如果沒意見,我們就第8條就單獨談這個政府在國家考試應該要設立新住民相關相關的類科,然後要因應新住民公務之需求。我們按照這個書巧會委員的版本通過,好不好?來,考試院,您有什麼說明?"},{"start":15370.539,"end":15386.588,"text":"考選部這邊,因為我說明一下,因為現行的公務人員考試他是屬於任用的考試,那類課的話我們都會配合用人機關的業務需求,所以如果說到時候用人機關如果他確實有提出說"},{"start":15387.689,"end":15408.33,"text":"確定要經由這個新住民的事務相關的類科來禁用這個的話那就是來說明說要設置在哪一個職系然後應適的專業科目啊預估的職缺等等的那經由行政院的人事行政總處這邊來匯轉到考學部這邊的話那我們這邊會依法來配合研議"},{"start":15409.415,"end":15416.829,"text":"我們知道你的行政程序了,所以在法裡面放的話更有一個issue嘛,好不好?謝謝考選部的翁專門委員。好,請部長。"},{"start":15424.296,"end":15450.124,"text":"那個蘇巧慧委員跟民眾黨黨團提到說國家考試的部分要有主持那個剛剛考選部的這個回應我覺得有一點要跟各位報告一下如果他是要應公職的部分的話可能他是需要具有中華民國國民的身份才能夠擔任公務人員但是現在我們在新住民的一些權益保障包括語言文化等等這些的輔導措施輔助措施的話他不一定"},{"start":15452.926,"end":15468.04,"text":"當時有中華民國國民的身份所以可能這一部分要再寫清楚一點或者是說譬如說你你這個這個是什麼樣的考試譬如說只是在通譯服務上面把它提高成國家的層級然後由考試院來舉辦"},{"start":15469.241,"end":15471.642,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":15494.31,"end":15495.311,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":15522.318,"end":15529.024,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":15546.792,"end":15553.496,"text":"三、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":15578.375,"end":15592.844,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":15603.75,"end":15631.086,"text":"沒有啊你沒有資格你等下那個國會議員要來他是兩邊陣我可能要接你你忘了我的名言嗎我拒絕接受沒有失誤的動盪我還是留在這裡對你還是留在這裡因為後續再來就是前面保留的部分我也不知道那後面怎麼樣後面也都還好欸你不能走欸我等下也要先走欸"},{"start":15632.601,"end":15638.366,"text":"因為我有國會議員來,我要去接待這次的議員呢?這次的議員呢?這次的議員呢?這次的議員呢?"},{"start":15659.548,"end":15673.295,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會"},{"start":16123.404,"end":16144.146,"text":"好 謝謝大家 大家可以一邊用餐 大家辛苦了那我們就一邊討論 第八條呢 我們就讓他保留好不好應該是第九條 我們把它全部 對 第八條 對不起我修正一下 第八條就按照書巧會委員等26人的提案"},{"start":16144.366,"end":16144.846,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":16174.796,"end":16179.264,"text":"好謝謝提醒來我們這個所有版本就是一起讓他保留好謝謝"},{"start":16186.516,"end":16204.292,"text":"我們現在來處理第9條第9條第9條在20頁有民眾黨團、國民黨團以及張智倫等委員、羅美玲委員的提案、蘇巧慧委員的第14條、邱振軍委員提案的第10條我們看一下第20頁"},{"start":16216.616,"end":16217.798,"text":"政府應辦理新住民語言認證與學習"},{"start":16233.698,"end":16247.67,"text":"徐新英委員修正動議羅美玲委員對於在台的新住民家庭政府應該要提供家庭諮詢"},{"start":16250.211,"end":16274.285,"text":"余兒教育等服務,並在各縣市要設置家庭服務中心。對於前向家庭的子女,政府應該要提供輔導措施,以協助其適應學校的生活,並且要避免遭受歧視。這是羅美玲等22人的提案。"},{"start":16275.245,"end":16292.954,"text":"對於民眾黨、國民黨、張智倫委員、巧惠委員,大概都是在於語言辦理的部分跟學習。還有邱振鈞委員,是新住民和他的子女有權接受與本國國民同等的教育。"},{"start":16293.514,"end":16307.894,"text":"政府應該要提供必要的教育資源還有支援,確保新住民還有他的子女能夠順利適應和融入本國教育體系。政府應該要辦理新住民語言的認證跟學習,建立新住民語言資料庫。"},{"start":16308.795,"end":16324.348,"text":"鼓勵新住民語言研究發展還有人才的培育政府應該要提供獎勵措施結合各級學校家庭跟社區推動新住民語言還有華語言學習並提供新住民子女特殊教育的協助"},{"start":16326.329,"end":16353.266,"text":"還有徐欣瑩的修正動議是說政府應該要提供獎勵措施要結合各級學校家庭跟社區推動新住民學習國家語言並提供新住民子女的教育和生活的協助所以基本上除了羅美玲委員跟邱正軍其實大家可能都差不多我們是不是請提案委員有沒有意見要提案說明補充說明的"},{"start":16354.912,"end":16376.442,"text":"好請羅美玲委員謝謝主席因為我的第9條跟你是比較希望有家庭服務中心嘛是是其實家庭服務中心是移民署在各縣市其實就是有設置其實現階段是是已經有在做的部分啦那因為我我裡面的內容其實跟其他委員的內容是完全不一樣的對您是家庭諮詢對對我覺得放在這裡"},{"start":16379.543,"end":16384.467,"text":"放在這裏一起討論,我也不知道如何去做討論,因為這個內容完全不一樣。"},{"start":16398.799,"end":16399.16,"text":"請張智倫委員"},{"start":16416.014,"end":16431.105,"text":"我現在跟那個議事人員討論的就是羅美玲委員我們就把它甄列出來至於放在哪裡請議事人員你們來調好不好但是呢我們現在針對就是民眾黨的第9條國民黨的第9條張智倫委員第9條蘇巧惠委員的第14條"},{"start":16437.049,"end":16461.743,"text":"還有邱政軍委員的第10條這幾個可能比較像一點的就是對於原住民語言的認證和學習然後要有資料庫要鼓勵新住民語言研究發展和人才培育這些政府就應該要提供獎勵的措施並且他要結合學校還有家庭跟社區來推動新住民語言跟"},{"start":16463.885,"end":16468.05,"text":"華語言學習提供新住民子女特殊教育協助。"},{"start":16480.586,"end":16509.529,"text":"好那如果美玲委員的那個要另外放我這個我尊重沒有問題那但是我我想因為我跟其他的不管是民眾黨國民黨張委員的提案略有不同之處我直接跟大家分享一下然後也請大家參酌一下我想我是在本條的第二項這個地方政府應提供獎勵措施結合各級學校家庭與社區推動新住民語言好接下來就是不同的地方了"},{"start":16510.129,"end":16530.663,"text":"我寫的我的文字是我國語言學習而不是華語言學習我想既然是這部法律案是有要由我們的政府來提供的那我國的語言確實其實我相信在這塊土地上用的語言也不只是華語而已所以我是建議寫我國這個範圍也比較大比較廣比較符合現況這是第一個我建議用我國語言這樣子"},{"start":16537.168,"end":16551.082,"text":"建議提供新住民子女的教育協助方面,我沒有寫特殊教育兩個字,我認為給新住民子女就是教育,不需要特殊的教育,特殊教育反而是標籤化的狀況。"},{"start":16553.524,"end":16577.228,"text":"他們不管是需要學習母國的文化或者是在台灣的台灣的文化我國的文化又或者是銜接教育或者是融入教育或者真的有任何其他特別的需求那都是屬於教育的一環那我認為我這樣子直接寫教育提供教育服務範圍既廣且不標籤化我是請各位可以支持我的版本"},{"start":16578.505,"end":16589.626,"text":"非常謝謝這個僑會委員的這個說明再請洪路委員其實大家的利益都良善啦但我覺得啦"},{"start":16590.748,"end":16609.756,"text":"你要去保障新住民的學習什麼,我都很同意,有一層支持。不過,這邊都還有保障新住民語言認證學習,要建立新民主語言資料庫,鼓勵新住民語言研究發展跟人才培育。我覺得好像怪怪的,你知道嗎?"},{"start":16610.734,"end":16638.706,"text":"因為新住民他一個短暫的期間過後他應該就是中華民國的國民了我們應該讓他更認同台灣中華民國全世界各國的這個新住民法或移民法都沒有說還要保障他原本國的這個我們應該讓他儘早融入台灣才對啊我覺得這個邏輯大家是不是可能要思考一下這個很怪很奇怪"},{"start":16640.576,"end":16663.053,"text":"謝謝紅綠委員 請蔓玉珍委員謝謝 因為說真的我們就是要有這樣子的族群的去照顧啦不是說歧視保障 如果是說不用當然我們就用基本法嘛不是說因為是這樣子的保障或者是發展人才這樣的培育不好我們不是說因為他拿到身分證他就不用輔導了嗎拿到身分證他就"},{"start":16667.236,"end":16667.977,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":16686.96,"end":16687.12,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":16705.691,"end":16734.728,"text":"好,來請這個徐新英委員謝謝主席本席的這個修正動議也是針對第9條兩個部分一個是語言一個就是新住民子女的教育和生活協助那所以語言的部分我本席的寫法跟巧惠委員是蠻像只是我是說學習國家語言跟我國語言應該是一樣看文字要怎麼用我沒有意見"},{"start":16735.669,"end":16763.567,"text":"那再來後面有關提供新住民子女的教育生活協助因為羅美玲委員的那個會另列我覺得那個也許那個家福中心那個也有幫助所以我大概在這邊說明如下我這個大概其他委員的大概都有涵蓋只是說文字上怎麼樣看大家的共識好謝謝我們請這個相關的單位有沒有什麼意見好我們請教育部謝謝"},{"start":16766.824,"end":16784.567,"text":"主席各位委員因為其實教育部對於新住民跟其子女在台一個適應的部分有提供華語的學習的相關資源那我們希望透過這樣子學習華語學習的資源部分讓他們盡快給融入我國的一個生活部分所以對於這樣子委員的條文部分要希望能夠建立一個新住民的一個"},{"start":16785.568,"end":16813.678,"text":"語言認證部分其實我們有考慮過這個部分最主要是因為新住民他是來自不同的國籍那語言跟文化他有不同的特殊性那如果說要針對該國的語言去認證的話還是要回歸到該國的母語去認證會比較適合不是由第三方國家進行相關的一個認證其實我們查過相關的國際慣例也沒有這樣子的一個處理所以我們建議有關條文的部分其實會比較傾向網美會委員的一個文字會比較適當以上"},{"start":16822.004,"end":16822.945,"text":"蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":16833.345,"end":16848.751,"text":"第14條第14條的部分其實第二項它的文字其實我們會比較我覺得在實際上落實會比較適合一點因為把那個特殊新住民子女特殊你要講的是特殊拿掉嘛對不對"},{"start":16851.012,"end":16864.348,"text":"僑會委員是說我國語言其他都是華語言所以在你們的那個名詞文字上面是哪一個我們現在正在實施的我們是華語對你這個可能是要提出來"},{"start":16865.209,"end":16894.034,"text":"所以這個巧惠委員才會清楚知道那剛剛巧惠委員他在說他的提案說明的時候也是就是要容然後再看一下齁邱振軍委員是說新住民和他的子女有權接受與本國國民同等的教育政府要提供必要的教育資源和資源確保新住民他們能夠順利適應和融入本國的教育體系這個部分可能就有鴻路委員所講的部分"},{"start":16894.594,"end":16921.032,"text":"所以現在就是這幾個委員的這個提案民眾黨委國民黨提我覺得特殊教育那個拿掉是不是好一點的我也我也覺得特殊那個兩個字可能會比較對比較強烈一點所以也就是我們第一個先處理的就是那個特殊那個拿掉好不好特殊那個字好再來就是華語言跟我國語言這兩個"},{"start":16923.911,"end":16950.198,"text":"所以請問巧惠委員他們現在教育部在講的是華語言對所以意思是其他的什麼台語啊之類的你看麥委員台語講多好對不對對啊不是是這樣對還有一個徐欣瑜是國家然後一個是我國語言一個是國家語言然後一個是華語"},{"start":16951.638,"end":16975.117,"text":"所以這幾個名詞請大家先討論一下部長來請說明我們教育部的同仁他所提的部分其實最重要一點就是我們好多委員有提到說政府應該辦理新住民語言的認證跟學習但是以教育部的立場來講新住民語言來自世界各國"},{"start":16975.657,"end":16976.298,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":17000.959,"end":17025.141,"text":"因為我們不具備有他們國家的整體的語言非常完整的系統這是一個所以不太可能是處理有關於新住民語言的認證跟學習這一點跟大家做一下說明認證啦學習是沒有問題那所以教育部的同仁他剛剛所提到的是說如果我們可以結合那個網美會委員裡面所提到的是政府應該"},{"start":17027.583,"end":17055.274,"text":"王美惠委員的第10條的部分有效消除語言隔閡的前半截以及蘇巧會委員所提的第二段政府應該提供鼓勵措施結合各級學校家庭跟社區推動新住民語言及我國或者是國家或者是華語言學習剛剛那個主席已經有這個做一下才是或是做一下建議提供新住民子女教育協助就是說這樣子的觀念"},{"start":17055.834,"end":17074.648,"text":"希望可以讓各位委員來做了解就是說我們不可能幫其他的國外的國家做他們的語言認證但是我們可以幫來我們這邊的新住民的朋友協助他們消除在台灣生活上語言隔閡的部分這一點我們可以幫忙 謝謝"},{"start":17075.909,"end":17090.542,"text":"好謝謝部長的補充說明請問一下其他提案委員對於部長的這個說明有沒有提出好我們請喬惠委員那我的華語我國語言和國家語言的這部分請問部長支持哪一個"},{"start":17092.473,"end":17105.13,"text":"欸這個我剛剛有查一下我們有國家語言發展法我覺得比較中性的說法應該是國家語言因為有國家語言發展法然後裡面講說我們自然使用語言和手語他可能比較中性一點許新穎的是國家語言嘛對不對"},{"start":17106.346,"end":17122.685,"text":"至於剛剛部長有提是要整合不同的那個是不是調文字要出來讓大家知道怎麼寫好不好來我們來看一下就是大家可能再討論一下那個認證的部分啦對我們再來調文字好不好那個認證的部分"},{"start":17128.044,"end":17144.977,"text":"主席其他委員都有講認證嘛我們是不是還是得先尊重來 洪路委員主席我真的是覺得認證就像我剛說的怪怪的啦這個真的很奇怪啦你都要學習國家語言了啊你又去認證他的那你到底要不要鼓勵他成為真正的中華民國的國人國民"},{"start":17147.622,"end":17160.079,"text":"我覺得照顧是一件事情我們要照顧新住民是我們今天最重要的目標但是你又幫他認證我真的覺得怪怪的大家可能要思考一下"},{"start":17161.069,"end":17181.414,"text":"好,因為幾個委員都有,我們再看一下,政府應該要辦理新住民語言的認證,剛剛部長是說學習是沒問題,但是這個由我們的政府來辦理新住民語言的認證,這個部分剛剛部長有說明,請問在場提案的委員你們有什麼意見,來請巧惠委員。"},{"start":17183.014,"end":17198.919,"text":"我剛剛聽完行政單位內政部這邊的說明之後我覺得對啊對啊應該他刺激我回想起來啦沒有錯啊如果我是一代移民比如說我們現在台灣人移民到美國去我還要美國政府來考我的中文"},{"start":17199.779,"end":17226.026,"text":"這不是哪裡怪怪的對吧這才證明我是講好那我的子女會不會講中文是美國政府要辦中文考試嗎好像也不是嘛以台灣自己來講的話剛剛部長的意思就是說是日本在台學日本交流協會然後美國之類的或者是其他的這個什麼我已經太久沒有考了是托福嗎現在是什麼現在是雅思我的年代跟黃捷不太一樣這句話可以不要做記錄嗎對"},{"start":17228.066,"end":17253.456,"text":"總而言之就是說好像確實不是政府啦所以在認證的這個部分我們自己回到我們自己的現實生活以及習慣的這樣原來這個習慣是有道理的嘛就是這個語言的認證部分似乎不是是我們政府代辦他國的這樣的語言認證所以這個部分是不是可以請其他委員也參考一下"},{"start":17253.956,"end":17256.098,"text":"國民黨團擬具政府要辦理新住民認證委員張智倫委員民眾黨團擬具"},{"start":17277.777,"end":17301.653,"text":"政府應規劃結合相關資源及學校積極提供新住民學習國家語言及文字的資源,以有效消除語言隔閡。四、政府應提供獎勵措施結合各級學校、家庭及社區推動新住民語言及國家語言的學習,並且提供新住民子女教育協助。"},{"start":17302.754,"end":17304.916,"text":"王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":17324.603,"end":17335.133,"text":"來大家看一下這個文字,如果大家認為政府應辦理新住民語言的認證大家都覺得好像是不太妥的話,我們就把這個文字拿掉。"},{"start":17342.291,"end":17362.105,"text":"好請黃婕委員好那我在想雖然我們有國家語言法可是因為在這一條或者整部法裡面都是在講新住民然後前面講到新住民語言後面又說國家語言學習會不會混淆就不知道是哪一個國家所以是不是我也覺得我國會比國家還好在這個整個語境裡面"},{"start":17364.827,"end":17389.077,"text":"然後其他的文字我覺得目前的這個條文算是蠻完整的然後我也不建議要放入認證啦因為我們來幫其他國家認證他國的語言這件事真的非常的奇怪我們也不應該宣兵奪主嘛也沒有資格去幫人家認證啦對啊所以我建議就是可不可以國家改成我國然後不要寫認證"},{"start":17391.382,"end":17410.88,"text":"現在應該這個認證的部分大家都同意不要放了嘛對不對都已經沒有那政府應辦理新住民語言的認證這個已經不存在在我們的條文裡面了所以因此才會有現在講說國家語言還是我國語言與文字來請洪祿"},{"start":17413.322,"end":17437.374,"text":"不好意思啦我覺得其實大家都有這個共識啦那你我國國家語言我覺得其實我國語言就很大家都看得懂了啦我覺得就我國語言就好了啦我不堅持啊我們會在這邊一直繞漩渦啦有共識最重要好 民法委員謝謝我先封錄大家的意見OK OK我認為我國會更明顯、更了解以上"},{"start":17439.991,"end":17467.726,"text":"好 謝謝現在已經越來越有共識了再看一次再看最後一次政府應規劃結合相關資源以及學校積極提供新住民學習我國語言跟文字的資源以有效消除語言隔閡然後接著下來政府應提供獎勵措施結合各級學校家庭跟社區推動新住民這次講語言還有我國語言的學習並提供新住民子女教育協助"},{"start":17468.985,"end":17471.806,"text":"第9條就修正通過,我的建議,剛剛羅美玲委員的第9條,家福中心那個是不是放在他的下面?增訂,增訂,增訂第9條之一,好不好?"},{"start":17492.878,"end":17508.276,"text":"好,那我們現在就來討論羅美玲委員的第九條因為我覺得羅美玲委員的第九條也非常的重要就是呢對於在台的新住民家庭政府應該要提供家庭諮詢,這的確婚姻教育、育兒教育等服務"},{"start":17509.177,"end":17536.906,"text":"並且要在各縣市設置家庭服務中心對於前向家庭的子女政府應該提供輔導措施以協助其適應學校生活並避免遭受歧視我覺得這非常的重要所以我覺得那個文字如果大家沒有意見的話我們就在第9條爭列好不好來請洪祿我個人是覺得他的最後第二句對"},{"start":17540.908,"end":17551.851,"text":"這一個我也覺得有怪怪,而且以協助其適應生活就好了,不要學校,那他下課之後的那段時間呢?"},{"start":17558.836,"end":17559.896,"text":"家福中心"},{"start":17588.856,"end":17612.908,"text":"那當然他課業上非常OK那當然不需要這個資源嘛可是對於這個學習弱勢的部分我是想說應該給予他一些輔導然後讓他適應學校生活那避免遭受歧視拿掉這個我OK啦我是覺得這個可以拿掉會不會那一句啦對好以上謝謝那當然我想看看其他聽聽其他委員的意見或是行政單位的回覆"},{"start":17614.323,"end":17622.049,"text":"我還是覺得比你把學校拿掉讓以協助其適應生活"},{"start":17623.206,"end":17644.666,"text":"我覺得你學校太狹隘了OK 好 這個是OK好 那請劉協廷委員那個 我要問一下家庭服務中心的定義啦因為在桃園家庭服務中心是社會局下面的社會福利機構在那處理的是弱勢跟特殊狀況那前面談的家庭諮詢婚姻教育跟育兒教育是在桃園叫做家庭教育中心"},{"start":17645.186,"end":17664.942,"text":"也就是說第一個地方政府應該已經都有相關機關第二個是名字會不會撞名讓分工出現一些困難的狀況所以這部分看看怎麼樣文字上做一些調整但法案的內容我是很贊成好 謝謝 請羅美玲委員現在這個移民署它在各個縣市其實都有設置這個新住民的家庭服務中心"},{"start":17665.963,"end":17687.626,"text":"全民就叫家庭服務中心嗎?不然我們就要加個新住民家庭服務中心其實這個經費來源都是來自於移民署所以剛剛那個劉雪婷委員因為也來自地方所以她認為如果不加新住民的話恐怕那個家庭服務中心會跟前面的那些有點混淆"},{"start":17688.226,"end":17716.775,"text":"所以我們就這個在並於各縣市設置新住民家庭服務中心好不好請問一下署長這樣子是不是比較貼切於你們現在在做的是好那另外我是不是可以提一下那個我們提供家庭諮詢然後婚姻教育育兒教育等服務那個那兩個教育可不可以把它把它拿掉因為一直講教育好像"},{"start":17717.628,"end":17722.53,"text":"政府應提供家庭諮詢、婚姻育兒教育等諮詢服務。政府應提供家庭諮詢,然後呢?"},{"start":17744.147,"end":17764.117,"text":"家庭、婚姻、育兒等諮詢服務。家庭、婚姻、育兒等諮詢服務,是嗎?是。好,所以就是政府應提供,來看一下文字,政府在哪裡?家庭、婚姻、育兒,應該要有一個頓吧?"},{"start":17771.572,"end":17774.937,"text":"應提供家庭頓點、婚姻、育兒等諮詢服務。"},{"start":17786.314,"end":17814.947,"text":"有啊!有頓啊!看了沒有?這個我們看螢幕上,可能更清楚一點。第九條之一,對於在台的新住民家庭政府應提供家庭的綜號,然後婚姻的綜號,育兒等諮詢服務,並於各縣市設置新住民家庭服務中心。對於前向家庭的子女,政府應該要提供輔導措施,以協助其適應。學校拿掉。對,以協助其適應。"},{"start":17818.857,"end":17830.458,"text":"教育中心在社、在學校裡面也有這些項目。所以,在大陸的管轄下,在學校裡面也有這些項目。"},{"start":17832.414,"end":17856.413,"text":"請玉珍委員你要不要拿麥克風,你覺得在哪裡有些...我們在教育部好像每個縣市也有設新住民教育中心,裡面也有服家庭婚姻,就是這個嬰兒等的諮詢服務,是不是教育部好像也有在國小有設這樣子的一個..."},{"start":17857.153,"end":17877.177,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下就是教育部在學校裡面有一些設置是新住民學習中心也就是我們提供是新住民相關培育的培育的活動課程所以基本上他跟所謂家庭婚姻諮詢部分我們都放在家庭教育的中心對所以他是不一樣的"},{"start":17877.938,"end":17888.553,"text":"那我們家庭教育中心其實他不分任何的身份他只要有家庭教育相關的需要諮詢的部分都可以到我們各縣市的家庭教育中心去做諮詢都沒問題"},{"start":17889.83,"end":17912.176,"text":"所以學校是否教育嗎?在學教育嗎?對不起,我現在再釐清一下。剛剛教育部律師說在學校,剛剛包括蔓依珍委員講,在學校其實他是針對教育的部分。但是我們第九條之一是講家福中心,家庭服務中心。所以他的家庭服務中心,現在每一個縣市有設的那個家庭教育中心是一樣的嗎?"},{"start":17919.591,"end":17947.668,"text":"家庭服務中心所以在這一條裡面我們才會說你看第二項裡面對於前項家庭的子女政府要提供輔導措施以協助他適應他並沒有講學校啦以協助他適應生活"},{"start":17948.749,"end":17976.759,"text":"所以這是否家福中心是家庭的問題婚姻的問題還有育兒的問題是在這邊來處理但是教育的那一塊是在你們目前學校都有嗎就是如果是有關於對家庭婚姻或是有相關的一些在學校也有嗎沒有那個沒有沒有是在我們的家庭教育中心各縣市我是依法依家庭教育法它是有設立家庭教育中心"},{"start":17977.059,"end":18000.72,"text":"所以你在各縣市也有一個家庭教育中心所以有兩個是不是一個是家庭教育中心一個是家庭服務中心有兩個家庭服務中心是那個內政部移民署是移民署的然後教育部有教育部的是不同的那我可以請問一下那現在如果我們要寫的九之一的第二項是給家福中心的嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":18004.585,"end":18011.809,"text":"我們第一項沒有問題了嗎?第一項是家庭服務中心。那第二項呢?第二項現在是在規定誰啊?我現在給你稍微回答一下。好,來請部長。"},{"start":18018.314,"end":18047.684,"text":"原來的新住民的這個家庭的這個服務中心的話是針對新住民不管是在家庭婚姻育兒這些諮詢服務他是移民署下面的一個資金那教育部所說就是剛剛那個麥委員所提的他家庭教育中心是針對所有的人不一定是新住民或原住民那新住民有困擾當然也可以去找他所以他是雙軌我覺得沒有關係就是看起來是並行不悖並沒有漢格的地方也沒有矛盾的地方"},{"start":18053.887,"end":18075.639,"text":"是是是這個我知道但是我們教育部下面還有一個新住民的一個教育中心吧這是新住民學習中心學習中心對對所以就是說他就是有有一個也是有一個關於新住民的一個中心嘛所以說整個名稱是要怎麼樣去稱呼不知道但是說說我照我知道是有一個新住民的設立在國小裡面嗎是不是對"},{"start":18076.88,"end":18104.846,"text":"委員報告因為我們新住民學習中心基本上我們是用補助的性質讓我們的縣市裡面去尋找學校可以作為新住民學習活動的一個地方所以基本上他在那個他的性質跟未來要設的新住民家庭服務中心跟我們現在的家庭教育的家庭教育中心其實他的性質是比較不一樣的一個是在著重在學習教育這一塊"},{"start":18106.317,"end":18135.12,"text":"所以是的確有在教育部的國教署裏面有一個,你可以全名叫什麼?新住民什麼?學習中心?對,在我們教育部中生教育師是中生教育師下面,但是是在國小?剛剛蔓依珍委員說是在國小?不一定,不一定,因為我們是透過縣市政府他們去找尋,看是學校或是民間單位,為以承擔呃呃呈辦這個新住民學習中心所以他是教育局處"},{"start":18137.626,"end":18158.367,"text":"在各縣市政府的教育局處的下面所以是寫計畫到你們教育部所以這個縣市政府有寫計畫你們教育部才會核定這個錢給他去做這件事情所以他不是常設的"},{"start":18159.488,"end":18184.363,"text":"它是一個,就是只要縣市政府有提報計劃,你都給。對,所以你清楚了嗎?好,所以未來如果各縣市政府對於新住民的學習,孩子在學校裡面的學習,就要用各級政府的教育局處,要不要提報計劃到教育部去?這樣更清楚吧?"},{"start":18185.759,"end":18189.775,"text":"主席,拜託,各位回答我清楚是不是這樣?"},{"start":18191.556,"end":18192.056,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":18221.937,"end":18222.718,"text":"新住民家庭教育教育輔導中心"},{"start":18233.25,"end":18260.195,"text":"學習中心第二種叫做新住民學習中心這個也是各縣市嗎?各縣市政府提報計畫對,我們是有一個補助計畫然後由各縣市政府去找尋它適合的場域去辦理有關新住民的相關的學習跟活動所以它不是常設的?所以只有這個而已嗎?對不對?教育部沒有另外一個了?教育部另外一個是有關於家庭教育中心所以它是不一樣的"},{"start":18261.215,"end":18277.152,"text":"那我剛剛這樣講你為什麼不順著我講就好了你就一定要先打打就是所以我才說有三種嘛對所以家庭教育中心那個也是常設的嘛但是否大家對否大家的否大家的就是第二個嘛也是新住民所以我要說嘛"},{"start":18277.592,"end":18293.974,"text":"第二種是新住民教育中心嘛可是它的適用對象是全台灣的這個都可以那你新住民也是國人啊所以也可以去教育中心這也是常設的那第三種是獎補助的爭取類型的那種非常設的嘛對不對"},{"start":18296.346,"end":18316.565,"text":"就看地方政府有沒有提到計畫啦所以其實我們真的是做的還不少透過這樣的對話那所以我還是回來那所以9之1現在是要做的是家庭服務中心嘛那我們現在本來要問的是那第二項你現在要規定的是誰而已剛剛在三種裡面的請問你是要放在哪裡"},{"start":18318.735,"end":18339.488,"text":"前向家庭的子女政府應提供輔導措施以協助他適應生活還是他就是一個犯犯的規定家庭的孩子他應該就是放在前面所有的家庭服務中心那何不乾脆就把他放在上面一二三四就好了就結束了就不會產生這樣的誤會"},{"start":18341.544,"end":18366.974,"text":"家庭婚姻育兒及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及子女及"},{"start":18370.578,"end":18376.841,"text":"本來我的想法是課後輔導可是看起來又好像跟這個對因為這個體格是家庭嘛因為課後輔導是教育嘛對對對我了解所以就是說"},{"start":18382.759,"end":18398.165,"text":"我覺得可以不用寫,如果是這樣的話因為你如果講說家庭子女的輔導措施適應生活就是家庭諮詢服務啊他其實就是家庭諮詢服務啊如果讓他單情化的話我是拿掉第二項我也可以然後洪路,來我覺得反而不應該拿掉那你如果你要這樣,你把兩項變成一項"},{"start":18408.929,"end":18430.556,"text":"不用再學兩下就是很清楚的定例是家庭服務中心做這些事情因為你的新住民的子女他不是只有學校的問題他如果你這個有移民署各縣市都有補助縣市政府設立這個所以他可以去做這些事情他有很多可以做我們現在可能想不出來而已對不對他有太多了"},{"start":18433.669,"end":18436.631,"text":"對於前項家庭的子女,政府應該提供輔導措施以協助其適應生活。"},{"start":18459.918,"end":18462.759,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":18486.63,"end":18513.025,"text":"提供一個一個著參的一個意見是不是有一個可能說假設增加彈性那就讓地方政府就是本於全責因為地方自治的關係然後他們就是有那個彈性所以現在有在做但是不一定要入法我們只是提供意見著參好謝謝你意見我們聽到了我覺得還是巴倫布法因為現在都已經在做了嘛所以沒有什麼自愛難行的部分嘛好不好聽到你的說明了"},{"start":18513.505,"end":18518.107,"text":"對於在台的新住民家庭,政府應該提供家庭婚姻育兒等諮詢服務,並於各縣市設置新住民家庭服務中心。"},{"start":18536.702,"end":18562.9,"text":"就弄一項就好,還是你要有兩項?對,我也認為一項就好了。家庭服務中心,對於那個前項,就沒有前項了。對於新住民家庭的子女,政府應提供輔導措施,以協助其適應生活,這樣好不好?就沒有所謂的前項,就在第九條之一裡面就完整的寫明了。"},{"start":18564.465,"end":18568.469,"text":"對於在台之新住民家庭政府應提供家庭婚姻育兒等服務本來我們是第二項現在併成一項對新住民家庭之子女政府"},{"start":18587.307,"end":18593.451,"text":"新住民家庭服務中心對於新住民家庭的子女政府必應提供嗎?政府必應提供輔導措施以協助其適應生活。"},{"start":18623.897,"end":18634.606,"text":"大家如果沒有意見的話,第九條之一,我們就增訂第九條之一,按照羅美玲等22人的提案。"},{"start":18637.029,"end":18653.124,"text":"我個人真的覺得政府併應提供扶老措施我覺得並不用啊政府應提供扶老措施就好了不堅持沒關係不堅持對啦好好政府應提供那個併拿掉"},{"start":18654.592,"end":18667.493,"text":"其實我覺得這樣文字更順暢一點,這不應提供輔導措施。好,謝謝洪路委員的提醒。好,第九條之一,我們就照羅美玲等22人的提案。"},{"start":18668.464,"end":18691.024,"text":"第9條我們修正通過。好,我們現在處理第10條。第10條有台灣民眾黨黨團還有國民黨黨團的提案。然後委員張智倫等委員王美惠等等提案。蘇巧惠委員提案的第15條還有邱振軍委員提案的第11條在22頁,大家看一下。"},{"start":18700.011,"end":18720.179,"text":"這是鼓勵學術發展培力儲備人才跟人才資料庫的建立這樣看起來那個好像大家都差不多吧文字好像意思都差不多但是請問一下相關委員或者是行政部門有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":18722.425,"end":18746.754,"text":"移民署這邊報告我們是建議是蘇協會委員的版本因為那個民眾黨的後面是寫到說新住民知識體系新住民知識體系那我們是覺得說那個蘇委員的是寫後職新住民專業人才比較容易了解"},{"start":18748.257,"end":18767.461,"text":"OK,我想知識體系可能就跟我們原基法還有現在原住民的比較像一點那就是巧惠委員說政府應獎勵新住民學術研究鼓勵大學院校設立新住民學習的相關院系"},{"start":18768.101,"end":18785.424,"text":"所學位的學程發展還有後職新住民的專業人才但是民眾黨是說要發展後職新住民知識體系這個知識體系不曉得這個這個蔓越真委員是希望呈現的是什麼"},{"start":18786.95,"end":18800.835,"text":"我們是可以就是用我們的書小會委員但是後面那個前線所培立的新住民事務人才還有政府應用設立人才資料庫這個部分要留下來"},{"start":18801.735,"end":18805.658,"text":"民眾黨黨團擬具後職知識體系擬具後職知識體系擬具後職知識體系擬具後職知識體系擬具後職知識體系擬具"},{"start":18831.238,"end":18846.384,"text":"但你把這個前項所培立之新住民事務人才政府應建立人才資料庫系統規劃、試採、運用我個人真的覺得這樣子對新住民我們所說的這些非常不公平"},{"start":18847.872,"end":18874.542,"text":"你這樣子我講來你也不不不你聽我講完齁我們立法真的是要尊重我們要那個你這樣我講的比較直接一點你第一個好像歧視他們第二個你好像是掌控他們的所有的資料我們的個資法什麼的我們都不要了我們為什麼可以讓新住民受到這種不平等的待遇我個人是從這個角度去看的那大家可以可以從不同的角度去看"},{"start":18875.814,"end":18876.355,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":18890.914,"end":18917.957,"text":"其實人才很多嘛那會浮現出來的其實政府機關甚至是不要說別的我們各立委辦公室大家也會看對一個助力比較好的大家也會想啊對不對但是反過來你在這邊把它寫成是一個人才資料庫就如同洪議員說的利益良善是沒有錯但我因為今天我不是新住民身份所以我的立場不知道適不適合這樣說但是如果今天是我的話我就不想要政府"},{"start":18918.638,"end":18943.019,"text":"把我的資料怎麼樣的掌控然後收在哪裡然後到哪裡的時候是怎麼樣對啊我是因為我表現好那大家有看到我這沒有問題因為表現好的人一定會被看到但是為什麼要在好像我是新住民身份我是某一個身份他就已經把我造冊在哪裡了然後還把我歸黨了這個不是很奇怪嗎因為像我孩子現在是原民身份嘛那所以是從幾歲就要開始把我歸黨了嗎是要做什麼嗎他要把我"},{"start":18947.102,"end":18947.342,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":18972.996,"end":18989.432,"text":"謝謝我是想要提問啦可不可以請行政部門說明一下新住民學術研究是指什麼然後新住民學術研究相關的院系所大概會是什麼樣的內容我就是純粹不太了解所以想要在這邊了解說接下來如果我們設立了"},{"start":18993.375,"end":19018.444,"text":"是吼不好意思不好意思對然後對我是想說這個人才資料庫我大概懂巧慧的意思就例如說我們的呃信憑的人才資料庫他就是一個就是有具有對對對這個信憑專業所以他在這個我們需要諮詢的時候可以從這個人才庫裡面去找到這樣的對象那所謂的新住民的人才資料庫會"},{"start":19022.375,"end":19033.242,"text":"對對對對就是他的他的這個把特別把他框出來的用意是什麼可能也要討論一下了好謝謝黃婉婕委員我們請蔓玉珍委員再來請劉徐庭委員"},{"start":19037.279,"end":19059.659,"text":"事實上這個是我們寫的新住民事務人才不是說新住民的就是框在那個族群不是因為現在如果沒有建立人才現在真的說我們要找什麼人要做什麼行業像翻譯我們也移民署也建立說大家要有一個新住民的翻譯"},{"start":19061.401,"end":19067.004,"text":"人才資料庫,所以警察要找翻譯才能找得到,還知道說哪一個地方有適應的人才,是這樣子的,我們要把我們的人才要穿成一個資料庫,是這樣啦,不是說我們就把新住民框在那邊或者把資料,因為我們是,現在大家都說嘛,散佈在不同的地方。"},{"start":19084.194,"end":19086.757,"text":"誰知道是哪裡有適用的人才有需要的人才所以我們是要栽培我們要建立因為昨天我們在公聽會有很多的新住民姐妹還有就是我們的教授他們都說希望我們要建立一個資料庫適材適用這樣子的話大家才會容易找到人"},{"start":19106.295,"end":19116.803,"text":"因為人散佈在不同的地方嘛,所以我們栽培人才就是建立一個資料庫讓大家來可以就是試用,或者大家也知道說這邊我們可以找到關於新住民事務的人才,不只新住民而已。"},{"start":19123.583,"end":19147.746,"text":"好,請留許庭委員第一個就是新住民事務人才不見得是新住民啦就是你對這個有研究你是個學者專家你也是新住民事務的人才那之所以要有人才資料庫我想立法的利益應該是這樣啦就是說這個東西畢竟是少數嘛我們今天會討論這個法條的原因就是因為希望保障相對少數的一些權利那這個剛剛有委員問說學術研究是什麼剛剛舉例嘛政大民族系嘛"},{"start":19148.366,"end":19162.716,"text":"政大民族系就是做各國民族研究他也做原住民的研究他未來能不能做新住民研究可以而且我覺得應該他應該開個新住民學程20個學分我覺得完全可以所以既然有一定的學術色彩我認為法條上應該就是用知識體系因為"},{"start":19163.556,"end":19180.761,"text":"真正希望重視這個族群的發展相對來講不是只有這個族群的人還有他的知識他的專業他的學術研究都是其中的一部分所以我覺得用知識體系是比較合理的那至於這個人才因為在實際執行的實然面他應該是一個相對少數"},{"start":19181.781,"end":19201.498,"text":"那也就是說在新住民族群有需要的時候或者是政府機關有需要的時候學術研究有需要的時候能不能快速的找到這一群相對少數的在做這個研究的人我想用意應該是這樣所以法條文字如果大家了解這個意思的話是不是法條文字上的大家有別的想法以上給大家參考謝謝好謝謝請羅美玲委員再來是張宏樂委員謝謝"},{"start":19205.044,"end":19222.02,"text":"剛剛那個剛剛我們貿易政委員有提到就是說同意的部分確實目前移民署在同意的部分是有一個同意的人才故事是沒有是沒有錯的現在是對但是那是針對同意的而且是經過我們訓練以後當事人也同意才會納到這資料"},{"start":19223.341,"end":19251.718,"text":"那現在我的疑問也有一個疑問就是說因為之前我們就是本來就是有同意只是我現在在想說當然牛雪婷我應該講的方向好像跟我們原先講的可能就是不要我本來認為說是針對於我們所賠利出來的這些新住民他在因為你寫事務人員我也覺得很模糊到底這事務人員是什麼如果你說同意他很直接他就是同意那你說事務人員他是涵蓋到哪一些行業"},{"start":19253.339,"end":19270.753,"text":"這個要怎麼來區分?這個我是比較覺得有點疑慮啦,到底他的他怎麼去區分?同意很簡單嘛,就是同意啊。那再來呢,其他的事務人員是指哪一部分?他的行業別是什麼?他的專才內容是什麼?這個我比較有疑問啦,我只是提問而已。好,請紅路委員"},{"start":19279.591,"end":19302.342,"text":"我個人還是覺得雖然用意良善或什麼的我覺得這一項你把它放進去真的是對人權的這個違反很大我覺得不應該我們立法把它放進去這裡你可以在立法說明裡面說我們希望移民署比如說特殊的同意人才他如果自己願意"},{"start":19303.722,"end":19317.015,"text":"啊你可以納入這一個讓他好找工作類似一個這種我們看我們怎麼去寫但你母法裡面寫這個這個一看就是違反人權的法令那我們讓他這樣過我真的覺得不對啦"},{"start":19318.513,"end":19341.247,"text":"我試圖了解一下民眾黨譽貞委員長。其實我覺得巧惠委員講的專業人才跟事務人才,其實你們兩個講的是一樣,但是專業人才跟事務他的解釋的確會不太相同。大家聽一下我的意見,我覺得專業人才是需要的。"},{"start":19341.667,"end":19362.755,"text":"如果按照剛剛講的同意的部分,那我們可能還會有其他的專業的部分嘛,對不對?那事務是不是不要堅持用失誤這兩個字,而用專業人才?那你如果是專業人才的話,那麼你就必須要有一些建立人才資料庫,但是並不需要統整規劃。"},{"start":19367.219,"end":19382.114,"text":"政府應獎勵新住民學術研究鼓勵大學院校設立新住民學術相關院系所學位學程,發展後職新住民專業人才,並建立人才資料庫。"},{"start":19384.662,"end":19409.47,"text":"會不會好一點,可能就會取消大家的疑慮,就是要這些人這個資料庫要統整規劃幹嘛的,事實上我們在前面已經說的是專業人才了,這個專業人才包括也包括通譯,或者是在新住民的朋友上面,他可能還有其他更專業的東西,這樣會不會好一點,用專業人才取代事務人才。"},{"start":19413.072,"end":19425.423,"text":"知識體系知識體系那個是在後置新住民專業人才知識體系並"},{"start":19435.166,"end":19443.774,"text":"建立專業人才資料部,並建立專業人才資料部。"},{"start":19468.585,"end":19485.112,"text":"並建立專業人才資料庫。但是那個後職新住民專業人才那個就沒有嗎?就是你的後職新住民專業人才用後用新住民知識體系啊?是可能都已經建立專業人才資料庫當然就是有培養專業人才"},{"start":19492.517,"end":19515.076,"text":"僑會委員的意思是發展還有後職新住民專業人才那個後職可能就是培養的意思嘛 對不對我覺得啦齁 如果說像剛剛昭偉講的就是僑會委員那個發展及後職新住民專業人才後面再加一個並適才適用"},{"start":19517.737,"end":19537.688,"text":"我覺得這樣就好,我真的很反對把什麼人才資料庫把它入法。我們真的也有疑慮啦,你說將來我們這邊去蒐集說什麼是人才,啊是什麼列北,這樣子的確在行政機關會覺得這個也涉及到個資,那將來要給誰用,我們要給特定的人。"},{"start":19538.368,"end":19538.829,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":19553.809,"end":19574.916,"text":"那如果說在這邊要普遍的要建立各種這種人才的或是專業人才資料庫的確會比較自愛難行一點前面有會委員就是在這裡我覺得你這個並建立人才資料庫專業人才對我是覺得你有時候你"},{"start":19589.84,"end":19598.983,"text":"他只是希望在新住民裡面有一些專業人才被以後他需要用的時候從這個資料庫裡面擷取就行了就可以找得到對"},{"start":19605.212,"end":19624.807,"text":"請巧惠委員謝謝我發表一下我個人的意見請參考但是我覺得是這樣子我認為如果這個法令要能夠對新住民有比較直接立刻的幫助的話我認為這我的意見請大家參考而已"},{"start":19625.727,"end":19637.969,"text":"那個發展及後職的後面呢其實還是接我的版本是直接講到人才的部分為什麼呢?因為大家如果知道知識體系這幾個字在我們這裡討論聽起來是很有內涵學養高深的狀況可是問題是光是這一個知識體系這一個名詞四個字其實辯證就很多我隨便上網查一下原住民的知識體系這個還要討論到這個"},{"start":19654.352,"end":19674.304,"text":"各族群透過傳統信仰及儀式的實踐維繫神靈界的尊重和諧以及與自然境遇的共生依存關係累積到族群記憶及經驗發展歷史性這個我覺得還蠻大的對 然後到底是不是是這樣什麼叫做新住民的知識體系我覺得這又有辯證的問題"},{"start":19676.025,"end":19702.15,"text":"所以如果要這件事情可以立即有作用的話我們既然是非常具體的在這裡是用政府因他獎勵研究學術研究了要求他設立科系了那我們是不是就是就是明白的來說啦我們就是要發展及厚植原住民的專業人才所以這是第一項好那如果第二項的部分呢我個人在聽過各位委員的意見之後我也"},{"start":19702.85,"end":19720.78,"text":"尊重就是呃我會覺得主席的意見蠻很很很很對就是我們是不是那個麥委員那邊吼我剛時考慮的是你看你的寫法是前向所培立之新住民事務人才政府應建立人才資料庫也就是說等於"},{"start":19721.4,"end":19721.5,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":19738.353,"end":19738.773,"text":"第二項政府應建立新住民專業人才資料庫"},{"start":19758.351,"end":19781.982,"text":"如果是這樣的話會不會也達到了你的理想督促政府要做專業人才資料庫也是就每一個專業在各政府的各部門各機關當中他們依照自己的所需所以就是建立那個人才庫以後那將來適材適用這樣的第二項不曉得大家可不可以滿意以上是我對第一項和第二項的建議"},{"start":19782.773,"end":19804.551,"text":"好 所以如果說知識體系那個部分 劉委員沒有堅持的話我是覺得法條的精神 因為我為什麼會特別堅持 雖然這個詞也許有一點點有一點點看不懂 但是問題是這樣嘛我們今天之所以要讓他學術研究 不就是希望不就是希望台灣有更多有關於新住民的研究成果"},{"start":19805.331,"end":19832.162,"text":"讓台灣人更能夠了解新住民的文化、新住民的政策、新住民相關的所有事項,翻成為所謂的知識體系。我覺得這個法的精神是希望促進這樣的發展,所以我才會覺得有這個必要。如果我們只是把它載化成我們搞這個東西就是為了栽培人才,那我是覺得有一點點功力啦,有一點點功力。所以我提個建議啦,提個建議。發展知識體系並後職,或者是用培養新住民專業人才。"},{"start":19832.822,"end":19861.273,"text":"你知識體育用發展相對來講強度不會那麼高然後因為你人才用後職好像有點怪怪的好像變種樹一樣所以說用培養新住民專業人才那是不是要用資料庫我覺得我個人是沒有很堅持大家用開放的心態來討論所以你的意思是發展知識體系對不對對並培養新住民專業人才並培養新住民專業人才來看一下不用再下面一項我覺得再上不要再下面一項我覺得"},{"start":19863.834,"end":19882.187,"text":"對來發展知識體系對因為前面所講的都是學術研究嘛那學術研究跟知識體系就會比較比較能夠能夠對稱然後集就是後職新住民的專業人才對不對並建立專業人才資料庫這樣會不會"},{"start":19888.232,"end":19916.017,"text":"我是認為如果你是講專業人才的話那麼建立專業人才資料庫是比較可以的要不然的話你專業人才設立了之後你為以後要應用的時候你沒有這個資料庫你還要再去爬書那既然我們是培養專業人才所以他就局限比較小比如說他有通譯我不太清楚就新住民還有哪一些專業的部分"},{"start":19917.117,"end":19944.594,"text":"那這個就統稱叫做專業人才而不是事務人才啦如果就我理解的話是不是這樣子主席那我剛剛的建議是因為文字的寫法我是建議這個培養新住民專業人才之後就是據點了據點然後是下面第二項政府應建立新住民專業人才庫逗點試採就是麥委員的版本試採試用就這樣OK好來我們打一下謝謝"},{"start":19947.06,"end":19952.804,"text":"專業人才據點政府應建立新住民專業人才資料庫並適材適用適材適用"},{"start":19979.425,"end":20006.344,"text":"是才適用好不好來紅綠委員這樣就好了這樣已經很厲害了這樣就好了來對不起我們尊重紅綠委員的發言謝謝大家如果是要這樣子的話我覺得啦大家可以妥協就是說政府應建立新住民專業人才資料"},{"start":20008.018,"end":20022.776,"text":"不要什麼資料庫我真的覺得那個實在是讓人家覺得太違反人權的那個沒有一個國家會特別這樣子的啦新住民專業人才資料好像有點怪阿他有一個"},{"start":20026.271,"end":20026.351,"text":"主席我們"},{"start":20047.423,"end":20054.409,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法》案。"},{"start":20070.304,"end":20085.797,"text":"主席教育部第一項有建議要小休教育部高教師我們是建議鼓勵大學院校的大學院校改成大專校院鼓勵大專校院"},{"start":20093.424,"end":20116.5,"text":"大專校院設立新住民學術相關院席。這是教育部的建議。所以這樣子,如果大家文字沒有問題的話,是不是我們就,就是那個酷而已啊?因為,我感覺說,不是啦,我感覺說你修的時候,也要那個款項去補起來,讓我講,"},{"start":20120.799,"end":20146.426,"text":"大家有大家的想法要考慮嘛。對不對?那你剛才又講什麼沒有保留,再保留,沒有就休息一下,協商一下。好,請問一下內政部有沒有意見,移民署,對於現在我們修正的條文這個部分。是,保留的話是每一個委員的提案都保留喔,不是這個文字保留喔。對。"},{"start":20149.557,"end":20176.193,"text":"對對對好不好好來好既然這樣的話我們就不要浪費時間我們知道大家有建議說這個要保留好不好第10條我們就保留好不好謝謝來再往下走再往下走第11條有在24頁大家看一下有台灣民眾黨團還有國民黨團的提案張智倫委員王美惠的提案"},{"start":20176.893,"end":20183.417,"text":"還有羅美玲委員第8條的提案,以及蘇巧慧委員、邱正軍委員的第12條。24頁,大家看一下。無障礙語言的環境,這個好像我們前面有談到無障礙的環境,對不對?好,來請美玲委員。"},{"start":20203.451,"end":20217.21,"text":"我有看到其他的版本其實大家的版本介紹差不多其實需要建立一個無障礙的語言環境嘛就是當新住民他需要用他的語言做陳述意見的時候可以請這個同意來傳譯嘛"},{"start":20219.272,"end":20243.805,"text":"其實我的第一項其實也是類似這樣子的一個訴求可是我有加了第二項就是為達成前項目標政府應建立統一統一之統一人員培訓及職業制度那當然我想移民署應該很清楚我是針對什麼而來像現在我們的不管是司法醫療或是社區統一等等其實我們雖然有在做培訓可是是"},{"start":20245.806,"end":20256.316,"text":"各個縣市各自辦理就算是說衛福部好了他自己本身有在辦理的話他也是下放給地方政府地方政府每個縣市他們的培訓的內容"},{"start":20261.201,"end":20261.601,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":20279.594,"end":20303.852,"text":"建議參考澳洲NATI制度。這是一個非常浩大的工程,我不否認,只是說我希望說有一個這樣子的一個大方向,未來可以的話,我們就是朝向在培訓這個通譽人才的時候呢,可以有一個統一的這個制度。以上謝謝。好,非常謝謝。請美會委員。"},{"start":20308.001,"end":20327.34,"text":"有提議,因為我認為提供新住民的同意服務是要消除新住民的意願的困難。我認為有提議,這裡面講獎勵鼓勵各單位,更加進一步照顧新住民。我請問"},{"start":20329.468,"end":20334.753,"text":"我們的單位對本縣所提供的獎勵,他們有什麼想法?因為這裡面剛好有本縣有提供的獎勵,看看他們有什麼想法?"},{"start":20343.439,"end":20345.401,"text":"民眾黨團、國民黨團、張智倫委員、巧惠委員,當處理新住民事務時,應該要有陳述意見,必要時要請同意。"},{"start":20365.899,"end":20367.04,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":20385.836,"end":20411.533,"text":"那當然就是羅美玲委員比較不一樣她就是說你要提供這些通益服務的時候政府要建立統一的通益人員的培訓跟職業制度以上這三點我們請大家討論先請移民署來回應一下喬惠委員的英語獎勵可不可以英語獎勵辦得好就獎勵了不用規定在這裡不用規定在這裡"},{"start":20416.424,"end":20434.699,"text":"美會委員的辦理前項工作者也績效著英語獎勵這個部分,你不堅持?因為我問請教就是說,是怎樣不用?這是一個高雷,跟你認為是怎樣不用?要怎樣可以做好?"},{"start":20436.301,"end":20441.687,"text":"我的意思是說,辦得好,行政機關本履全責就會辦一些獎勵,行政獎勵啊。行政獎勵是什麼?"},{"start":20450.185,"end":20455.61,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":20475.509,"end":20498.303,"text":"這樣有放跟沒放都一樣都會走這樣我們就要放是不是這樣所以署長的意思是說放不放都沒關係嘛對不對如果放了也很好啦對不對好那我們就不需要拿掉嘛那就不需要拿掉好那我們就還是保留一下那倒是說那個剛那個羅美玲委員有特別提到因為要建立統一之"},{"start":20499.523,"end":20522.114,"text":"統一人員培訓跟職業制度因為在各個領域其實是不一樣的啦你譬如說司法統一有他的專業啊那你衛生醫療也有他的專業那教育也有他的專業各個領域其實當然你說要做統一的這種這種人才人員的一種"},{"start":20522.634,"end":20523.174,"text":"培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓培訓"},{"start":20552.983,"end":20572.619,"text":"所以現在大家都說政府機關機構在處理新住民事務的時候要使新住民得以他語言的陳述意見應該沒意見嘛對不對然後巧惠委員是必要的時候要提供該語言的通譯服務巧惠委員這個是可以的對是必要的時候請問一下賴議政委員"},{"start":20575.141,"end":20590.464,"text":"我們是一樣的啊就是我們就是希望是應用我們的版本啦因為我們三個版本是一樣的也是跟他們就是一個是必要一個是該政府必要對喔也一樣必要對對對對好所以劉徐廷委員我覺得這樣啦"},{"start":20591.525,"end":20612.669,"text":"把這一條變兩個部分第一個是在處理新住民的服務案件的時候要用同意的方式處理這就是大家共同的版本我們就給他保留第二個我覺得王美惠委員的版本是鼓勵政府各級機關提供友善語言環境所以把他的最簡單的調整說政府應於公共領域提供新住民語言播音諮詢等服務"},{"start":20613.229,"end":20626.458,"text":"因為同意已經寫在前面了,就不用再寫同意。即落實其他新住民友善環境措施,辦理前項工作,所有績效者應予獎勵。這樣我覺得這一條就非常完整。除了同意服務之外,也有友善措施,也有獎勵措施。這樣子,以上。"},{"start":20628.519,"end":20654.395,"text":"不好意思那個羅美玲委員她可能等一下就回來了她是請我幫她說她的那個為達成前項目標政府應建立統一之同意人員培訓及職業制度她很堅持所以我們這一條是等一下回來討論我們討論沒有了不然這樣可能會除非移民署這邊沒有意見移民署他沒有意見"},{"start":20655.612,"end":20683.693,"text":"他們覺得是他們說有困難嘛有困難他們說有困難啊對沒有沒有我想要把那個美會委員都放在下面就是統一起來對他可能我等他排完吧再看嘛來排一下齁剛剛劉許廷委員所講的部分那另外一個就是羅美玲委員很堅持為了要達成前向目標政府應該建立統一的統一人員的培訓還有他的職業制度"},{"start":20686.451,"end":20711.743,"text":"這是第二項他是非常堅持的但是前面那一項我們來打文字一下好了既然就這一條他很有意見要的是不是我們也是保留了因為要保留的話是每一個委員的版本都要被保留好不好好來這個部分第11條我們也保留然後再來就是看一下26頁羅美玲"},{"start":20715.137,"end":20720.902,"text":"委員提案的第7條,蘇喬惠委員第11條,王美惠委員提案的第8條。"},{"start":20737.028,"end":20744.815,"text":"來這個部分是不是要大家來說明一下羅美玲委員蘇巧惠委員美惠委員"},{"start":20749.775,"end":20770.054,"text":"政府應該提供新住民在我國生活所缺的基本稅主席跟您報告一下因為這個部分只有羅美玲、蘇巧慧就我那王美惠三個人的版本那我和美惠都覺得說我們是不是等一下羅美玲所以這一條直接先保留這樣可不可以好來我們再繼續往下走第12條"},{"start":20772.469,"end":20794.846,"text":"第12條,看一下27頁有台灣民眾黨黨團還有國民黨黨團的提案。張智倫委員的第12條,羅美玲委員的第11條,蘇巧惠委員的第16條,邱振軍委員的第13條。看一下第27頁,這個部分是在講什麼?工作權的保障。"},{"start":20801.776,"end":20803.298,"text":"建立交流管道。"},{"start":20817.475,"end":20845.334,"text":"那跟委員報告那這一條呢主要勞動部針對本條我們看到了我們蘇巧慧委員張智倫委員跟邱振軍委員以及民眾黨團國民黨團的版本他的文字內容事實上大概都是一致的所以我們在各位委員的版本之下那勞動部提了一個修正的版本那我們就把他秀在這個銀幕上面麻煩來秀一下文字"},{"start":20846.067,"end":20873.835,"text":"是,那我們的文字上面呢,主要有做了一些精簡跟一些增加跟委員來做個報告。第一個部分呢,我們,不是這一條,是13條,不是這一條。現在在,工作權保障是勞動部。好,麻煩去跟我們議事人員談一下,到底是哪一張。你現在要講的是第12條,我們保留的那個部分。"},{"start":20879.58,"end":20897.185,"text":"因為工作權保障的跨號是跨在第13條啦我們現在是在講交流啦其實我們是在講交流啦工作權是在第13條啦工作權是第13條啦對啊那現在講的是剛剛講的是這個啊27頁對啊我們現在在出27頁好"},{"start":20906.953,"end":20908.935,"text":"建立交流管道"},{"start":20919.106,"end":20939.214,"text":"因為這邊是寫實了說要跟某國要去建立交流管道我是覺得說這個交流管道其實目前如果說有些是可能有些沒辦法直接在政府跟政府之間的所以是不是"},{"start":20944.574,"end":20963.906,"text":"他最後講說政府應該要推動新住民跟他的母國連結的措施,然後以促進新住民跟母國之間的經濟、社會、文化、宗教、學術等事項的交流。我不認為這有什麼困難的地方啊。好不好?好,謝謝。"},{"start":20965.087,"end":20967.409,"text":"我們並沒有要求你是政府對政府我們要求的是跟母國連結的措施是經濟社會文化宗教學術"},{"start":20980.562,"end":21003.441,"text":"不是政府所以這邊要特別釐清一下我們反而比較擔心的是你現在沒有講出來那我們順便講一下就是說因為我們這邊寫的是政府應喔政府應該喔然後要跟母國所以凡新住民皆在此項包含之內所以我們的新住民來自地球上的世界各國"},{"start":21004.702,"end":21023.42,"text":"你有沒有辦法跟世界各國的母國都連結嗎?這就是,比如說我是非洲某一個比較我們比較沒有那麼往來平凡的小國,或者是什麼,我拿著這一條來跟你,我沒有說我是地理位置上面的問題,對啊,之類的,那會不會讓你有摯愛的男性,我本來是單你講這條啦。"},{"start":21029.646,"end":21038.223,"text":"是不是能改成鼓勵推動?因為有的時候不一定是政府自己做啊或NGO團體來做啊或什麼這樣之類的"},{"start":21042.358,"end":21048.741,"text":"政府應鼓勵推動新住民與其母國連結的措施,以促進新住民與母國之間的經濟、社會、文化、宗教跟學術等事項的交流合作。"},{"start":21070.051,"end":21075.074,"text":"民眾黨版本、國民黨版本、張智倫委員的版本、蘇巧慧委員的版本,都是這樣子。所以我們就修正通過。"},{"start":21091.432,"end":21099.356,"text":"來,第13條,現在來回到剛剛第13條,工作權的保障,來,第13條,在28頁,台灣民眾黨團國民黨團提案,張智倫委員、羅美玲委員、王美惠委員13條,蘇巧惠委員的第17條,邱振軍委員第14條,那剛剛呢,我們的勞動部他有這個"},{"start":21116.804,"end":21123.425,"text":"有修正的那個文字大家看一下現在在在螢幕上面是那麼小大一點好嗎"},{"start":21125.875,"end":21155.155,"text":"請主席跟委員看一下這個內容那我一面來跟委員來報告第一個部分呢我們陣列了團體團體是政府應該要鼓勵來辦理新住民就業服務的一個對象那第二個呢我們這個條文主要是在做就業的促進所以委員的版本裡面有一項是在職場中去辦理職場諮商的這一塊我們建議在這邊不列出"},{"start":21156.036,"end":21162.281,"text":"第三個部分委員的版本裡面有提到專門職業資格因為專門職業資格屬於考試院辦理也定有專門職業及技術人員考試法另外依照第三條"},{"start":21171.389,"end":21172.21,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":21190.585,"end":21217.276,"text":"促進其就業。那我就整條來跟主席跟委員宣讀一下那第13條政府應鼓勵相關機關構團體辦理新住民就業服務提供就業諮詢就業媒合及輔導取得技術式證促進其就業那以上好請問在場的提案委員你們對於這個勞動部修正的這樣子的條文大家有沒有意見"},{"start":21224.664,"end":21225.444,"text":"就業諮詢跟職場諮詢有什麼不一樣?"},{"start":21240.132,"end":21267.372,"text":"那跟委員報告那就業諮詢是在新住民在就業的過程裡頭在還沒有找到工作的時候我們會透過一些專業的一些人員來提供一些對他在求職上面的一些困惑或是需要被協助的部分進行就業的諮詢那這邊本來列的職場之商這幾個人是在他已經就業了我是在職的"},{"start":21268.172,"end":21296.012,"text":"新住民所以我在職場裡面接受職場方面所能是事業單位他的僱主提供給他的諮商的這個部分好謝謝大家都同意嗎沒意見吧我也覺得好像這樣的修正文字好先給你鼓勵一下你是有備而來的你看我們這樣子是不是比較順暢比較快一點謝謝好第13條我們就按照這個勞動部的意見文字修正通過"},{"start":21297.573,"end":21322.285,"text":"第14條,看一下第30頁,台灣民眾黨黨團還有國民黨團的提案。張智倫委員的第14條,羅美玲委員的第10條,蘇巧惠委員的第18條,邱正軍委員的第15條。我們看一下第30頁。好,沒問題吧,關懷不住。第14條。好。"},{"start":21325.54,"end":21329.302,"text":"衛福部社會保險司、社會救助跟社會保險司王簡任視察"},{"start":21346.033,"end":21366.246,"text":"委員還有各位會的先進有關這個第14條衛福部的建議請請各位委員參酌我們希望你有文字是嗎來大家看一下就是現行臺灣民眾黨還有就是國民黨黨團以及蘇喬陽委員提案的版本我們保留第一項但是建議刪除第二項"},{"start":21366.946,"end":21378.815,"text":"我們做這樣的修正的理由是因為輔助比較寬廣那不限於後面的所說的保費或醫療補助所以我們建議就是只保留第14條的第一項"},{"start":21381.975,"end":21386.82,"text":"政府應提供新住民關懷協助。政府應提供新住民關懷協助。"},{"start":21407.005,"end":21408.886,"text":"政府應關懷提供新住民關懷協助並對弱勢"},{"start":21437.492,"end":21447.798,"text":"政府應提供新住民關懷協助,並對弱勢住民益補助。政府應提供新住民關懷協助。"},{"start":21467.093,"end":21469.535,"text":"政府應提供新住民關懷協助,並對弱勢新住民給予輔助。"},{"start":21491.479,"end":21491.92,"text":"第14條修正通過"},{"start":21502.369,"end":21507.871,"text":"來第15條第15條看一下32頁臺灣民眾黨黨團還有國民黨黨團的提案第15條委員張智倫提案第15條委員蘇巧惠的第13條委員王美惠的第12條委員邱正軍委員的第16條32頁好這個是媒體的禁用權請問一下相關的單位有在嗎"},{"start":21533.961,"end":21548.572,"text":"通傳會有人在嗎?請說明一下,各幾位委員還有黨團的提案,你們有什麼意見?還是你們有一些文字的修正,像剛剛兩個部會的?"},{"start":21552.784,"end":21572.115,"text":"通常會對於新住民的媒體禁用是樂觀其成的至於要怎麼設、要設什麼樣形式的媒體或者要怎麼來設相關媒體機構這部分我們就尊重日後的主管機關的權責因為本會是監理機關那如果要依廣電法、衛廣法來申請的話我們會本於職責來與協助"},{"start":21574.937,"end":21595.681,"text":"請問一下目前應該有新住民的一些廣播現在是一些廣播電視媒體他有播一些新住民的節目比方說公視跟華視都有新住民的新聞那另外交易電台跟央廣都有一些新住民語言的節目他並不是一個專責的媒體但他在媒體節目裡面有些多元文化的節目"},{"start":21597.307,"end":21621.054,"text":"所以他這邊提的也是政府應該要保障新住民傳播和媒體的禁用權要設立全國新的新住民廣播電視還有網絡或是其他形式的影音平台然後對於前項這個自播新住民語言文化節目的廣播電視還有網絡還有或者是其他形式的媒體試驗政府要得與獎勵或補助"},{"start":21624.992,"end":21639.884,"text":"這個部分應該沒意見吧?請問一下在場的委員們。來,大家提的也都差不多,對不對?來,請署長。這個,如果要設立那個廣播還有電視台,可能"},{"start":21647.442,"end":21664.011,"text":"我們是不是改成說鼓勵廣播電視網路網際網路或其他媒體事業自播自播新住民語言的這些廣播電視節目或影音以促進新住民使用媒體"},{"start":21664.631,"end":21679.901,"text":"因為你的製播其實第一項就已經有啦用製播啦那第二項其實它已經有啦就是要保障新住民的傳播和媒體的禁用權嘛要設立全國新的新住民廣播電視以及網路或其他行之的影片所以你對這個設立有問題"},{"start":21682.102,"end":21698.095,"text":"一下子我們是希望說是不是前面寫鼓勵後面就是說做補助比如說政府對於自播新住民語言文化節目或影音的這些媒體事業我們得以獎獎勵或補助"},{"start":21710.764,"end":21729.058,"text":"政府應保障新住民傳播及媒體禁用權,設立全國性的新住民廣播、電視以及網路或其他形式的影音平台。政府對於製播新住民語言、文化節目或影音的廣播、電視或網路等媒體事業得予以獎勵或補助。"},{"start":21730.539,"end":21753.573,"text":"請問一下在場的委員們有沒有什麼意見我們這個不是我們的理論我們來修一下好了署長你的意思是不是在那個先不要動一下好不好你們的在哪裡他是不是一段就只有加兩個字啊是不是就是只要鼓勵設立署長你的條文有在我們議事人員那裡嗎"},{"start":21755.762,"end":21758.803,"text":"請問一下巧惠委員還有余真委員你們的意思是不是按照那個署長"},{"start":21782.298,"end":21785.76,"text":"政府應鼓勵廣播、電視、網際網路或其他媒體事業,製播新住民的語言文化之廣播,"},{"start":21810.312,"end":21826.605,"text":"電視節目或影音以促進新住民使用媒體。然後第二項政府對於製播新住民語言文化節目或者是影音之廣播、電視或網路的媒體事業得予以獎勵或補助。請問麥玉珍委員對於這樣子的文字修正"},{"start":21833.951,"end":21861.014,"text":"同意,好,蘇巧慧委員我想確定一下,其實這上下第一項跟第二項是差不多意思,因為我們就是用獎勵補助來鼓勵嘛,對不對,那要分成這樣寫我也沒有意見,因為他就是為了要加入那個以促進新住民的實用媒體,那我現在是要確認一下上下第一項和第二項的項目,一不一樣,會不會有上面鼓勵然後下面沒有補助到的?"},{"start":21862.717,"end":21866.678,"text":"我認真說的啊我們很在意這種事情錢最重要了沒有什麼比這個"},{"start":21868.388,"end":21892.888,"text":"對下面那一項感覺是得餘以獎勵或補助前面是鼓勵嘛所以我們現在就是要看前面的他現在是鼓勵廣播電視網際網路或其他媒體事業這是主體嘛然後製播新住民語言文化之廣播電視節目或影音那下面的話是什麼下面的話是新住民少一個網際網路網際"},{"start":21894.941,"end":21916.208,"text":"新住民語言文化節目因為上下的寫法廣播電視節目或影音你上面是廣播電視節目或影音下面是廣播電視或網際網路他上面也是電他上面也是電視下面也是網際網路但是用語不同"},{"start":21926.971,"end":21929.172,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":21957.901,"end":21970.619,"text":"依應鼓勵廣播...我就是在..."},{"start":21972.674,"end":21998.603,"text":"好,你的第二項就其實不要,然後把得予以獎勵或補助放到第一項的媒體後面。放到影音的後面。對,好不好。影音的後面。對對,媒體,前面第一項那個使用媒體,對。餘以獎勵或補助,對阿,這樣可以阿。餘以獎勵或補助以致新住民使用。"},{"start":22002.12,"end":22008.55,"text":"那如果是直接開宗明義寫政府未促進新住民使用媒體逗點"},{"start":22010.219,"end":22034.395,"text":"因鼓勵廣播、電視、網際網路及其他媒體事業自播新住民語言文化之廣播政府因鼓勵廣播、電視、網際網路或其他媒體事業自播新住民語言文化之廣播電視節目或並予以獎勵或補助並促進新住民使用媒體"},{"start":22035.896,"end":22036.316,"text":"政府應鼓勵"},{"start":22059.708,"end":22086.048,"text":"各媒體事業政府應鼓勵各媒體事業致播新住民語言文化之廣播電視節目或影音並予以獎勵或補助以保障新住民德語德語獎勵一個語德語德語獎勵或補助我覺得最後可以改成以保障新住民媒體禁用權"},{"start":22087.689,"end":22115.601,"text":"這樣感覺比較專業以保障新住民媒體金融權影音是不是以保障新住民媒體金融權可以嗎?大家看一下可以喔,這個很有進度"},{"start":22117.125,"end":22132.325,"text":"請問一下署長這樣可以嗎?可以,拜託。政府應鼓勵各媒體事業致播新住民語言文化的廣播、電視節目或影音,並得予獎勵或補助,以保障新住民媒體經用權。好。請問一下僑會委員。"},{"start":22134.604,"end":22142.949,"text":"第15條我們就按照這樣的修正通過來第16條看一下35頁台灣民眾黨團國民黨團的第16條張智倫委員第16條羅美玲委員的第12條蘇巧惠委員第19條邱振軍委員的第17條這個不是公共參與應該也沒什麼意見吧"},{"start":22162.882,"end":22164.947,"text":"你有什麼文字修正嗎?大家看一下這個文字"},{"start":22170.219,"end":22199.233,"text":"政府應鼓勵新住民投入、公共參與、增進多元文化交流。國民黨團也是這樣。然後張智倫委員的這個文字也一樣。然後蘇巧惠委員的文字也一樣。然後邱振軍委員的只是羅美玲委員是說政府應培訓新住民公共政策專業人才提供進修培訓課程要鼓勵新住民參加。前項的鼓勵得以獎勵或其他方法為之。"},{"start":22201.209,"end":22211.037,"text":"一個是公共參與,一個是公共政策的專業人才。對於這個第16條,大家如果沒有意見的話,是不是我們就按照委員會的修正通過。不用。"},{"start":22243.306,"end":22251.43,"text":"按照台灣民眾黨團提案,國民黨團提案,張智倫委員提案,蘇巧惠委員提案,邱振軍委員提案,通過。"},{"start":22253.448,"end":22278.138,"text":"來,第17條。台灣民眾黨團、國民黨團第17條。張智倫委員第17條。羅美玲委員、王美惠委員的第14條。蘇巧惠委員的第20條。邱振軍委員的第18條。看一下。就是施行日。好。施行日是不是改成本法施行日期由憲政院定次?"},{"start":22282.449,"end":22296.638,"text":"本法自公佈日施行本法施行日由行政院定之本法施行日由行政院定之本法施行日由行政院定之"},{"start":22312.059,"end":22333.884,"text":"一樣啦,意思是一樣啦,但是是用他們的這個文字通過啦。好,我們就按照修正通過第17條。好,我們現在回過頭來,還有幾條,整理一下。我們先休息,上洗手間休息一下,然後等一下請議事人員來整理一下條文,好不好?"},{"start":22337.748,"end":22341.953,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22360.343,"end":22364.648,"text":"附帶決議的部分,然後我們等一下來看一下大家有沒有什麼意見。"},{"start":22386.159,"end":22411.549,"text":"欸!智倫立委!新住民基本法跟...陳毅不是啦!你應該還會掛符啦!對啊!大家都支持你,你給他寫你的基本法,你也還掛符,會說,人家你過這行,這也是支持的!"},{"start":22414.517,"end":22421.544,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22434.767,"end":22444.549,"text":"因為我們自己沒有很多,但是一定要支持的,因為你看,因為哦,六十幾萬人啊,第一關出名多少啊,他們那台還會生經啊,越來越多。"},{"start":22458.43,"end":22464.413,"text":"我是覺得最主要我認為最主要如果有事要做大家都有共識因為讓他說可以"},{"start":22471.912,"end":22476.855,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22492.366,"end":22498.191,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22518.229,"end":22519.55,"text":"沒有這麼嚴重啊辛苦了"},{"start":22548.975,"end":22575.173,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22587.007,"end":22594.016,"text":"三點四十六四點我今天要一點愛"},{"start":22595.816,"end":22601.383,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":22613.919,"end":22617.022,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":22642.943,"end":22660.091,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22661.732,"end":22679.022,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22682.674,"end":22701.819,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22707.415,"end":22724.748,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":22727.982,"end":22744.747,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22752.772,"end":22764.219,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":22770.603,"end":22797.787,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨"},{"start":22801.423,"end":22812.308,"text":"人們想要草案,你都要草案,我也要來草案,因為今天我沒地方,我睡不著,我已經家裡鄉親一直找我,對啊,家裡阿公阿嬤在找阿虎也要回來了,"},{"start":22841.65,"end":22866.919,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新"},{"start":22869.456,"end":22891.249,"text":"現在大家回來了,因為剛才羅美玲委員暫時離開了之後,張宏祿委員有替羅美玲委員保留了第11條的部分。羅美玲委員的第8條,張智倫委員的第11條,蘇巧慧委員的第12條,就是通譯的部分。"},{"start":22892.029,"end":22919.58,"text":"那那個羅美玲委員就是說她也不堅持她的第二項未達成前項目標政府應建立統一的通譯人員培訓及職業制度所以大家就比較能夠對於政府機關或機構在處理新住民事務的時候要使新住民得以其語言陳述意見然後各該政府機關或機構必要的時候要聘請通譯傳譯人員"},{"start":22921.561,"end":22921.902,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨團擬具"},{"start":22939.236,"end":22942.7,"text":"這是您的第8條民眾黨團的第11條國民黨團的第11條蘇巧惠委員的第12條美惠委員的第11條邱振軍委員的第12條現在看一下第25頁看到了嗎"},{"start":22955.073,"end":22975.688,"text":"對,好,謝謝。剛剛在25頁的時候,您因為只針對政府要建立統一的統一人員的培訓跟職業制度嘛,你堅持,你現在說你不堅持這一塊嗎?是這樣子,主席,謝謝主席。其實這個部分的話,其實就是一支我希望政府來做的,可是我剛剛一開始就有提到,"},{"start":22976.648,"end":22994.255,"text":"提案說明說我剛有提到就是說其實這這個非常浩大的這個工程可是我還是希望我們行政單位未來還是要朝這個方向前進那我知道說因為這樣執行起來也許行政單位會覺得非常的困難那我放進去的話會讓他們現階段非常的困擾"},{"start":22996.656,"end":23025.378,"text":"所以這部分的話我暫時可以先拿掉可是這部分還是希望行政單位未來要來努力的這個方向我們必須要有一個統一的通益人的培訓跟制度因為現在的這個通益的這個培訓跟這個職業的制度其實是非常非常的混亂我一直在提到說這跟人權有關係比如說尤其是司法通益這個部分謝謝羅美玲委員我們知道了所以你的意思是說他們以後希望能夠做"},{"start":23025.678,"end":23029.499,"text":"政府機關及機構處理新住民事務,因使新住民得以其語言陳述意見。各該政府機關或機構必要時應該要聘請、通譯、傳譯之。"},{"start":23055.179,"end":23055.759,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":23078.522,"end":23105.146,"text":"所以這個署長你的意思說播音不要是嗎?是因為播音那個語言太多種了這樣可能不太行你如果說是要要符合這個所謂的這個大家都聽得懂那個播音應該也屬於在裡頭因為我們我們前面是說通譯的話其實個別的都沒有問題但是在公共領域要提供所有的新住民語言的播音是不是會有困難"},{"start":23114.783,"end":23120.93,"text":"主席,這幾十個幾十個議員要報應,是不是有那麼困難?是不是再來?我覺得要多轉要求也要做出來。"},{"start":23130.64,"end":23135.063,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":23152.864,"end":23173.039,"text":"每次我們修法都這樣都講到沒電應該講就不要拿不要用因啦好如果我們把強度降下來就是政府於公共領域提供新住民語言播音諮詢等服務及其他落實新住民語言友善環境之措施卓有績效者應予獎勵就變成鼓勵性質嘛"},{"start":23173.9,"end":23189.73,"text":"因為我可以看狀況有些地方那個人相對單一我可以提供播音服我會給他提供提供的話我們就把認定為語言友善的環境措施就給他獎勵這樣子政府壓力不會太大但是獎勵的精神可以保留大家看看怎麼樣所以你的意思說第二項政府那個鷹拿掉對鷹拿掉"},{"start":23191.031,"end":23207.231,"text":"政府於公共領域提供新住民語言播音諮詢等服務及其他落實新住民語言友善環境措施,則有績效者益於獎勵。"},{"start":23211.189,"end":23211.209,"text":"紅綠委員"},{"start":23233.692,"end":23254.794,"text":"兩個啦齁我覺得英語獎勵應該是變成德語獎勵啦德語獎勵英就是一定要嘛對不對齁我建議這一個啦德語獎勵那我覺得剛剛那個署長講的也有道理啦你如果把他新住民族語言播音把它錄法"},{"start":23255.555,"end":23275.184,"text":"我回應講我們簡單算啦如果你要我們不用每一個國家30個國家的話你講一次吼一個小時啊啊你是要怎麼處理所以我會建議就是說政府因爲公共領域提供新住民族語言諮詢等其他"},{"start":23276.164,"end":23295.024,"text":"等服務及其他落實原住民有上環境之措施。所以這個紅綠委員的意思講說這個波音拿掉但是呢在公共領域的時候他必須要這樣好不好政府應於公共領域然後那個波音拿掉"},{"start":23300.109,"end":23312.278,"text":"政府因於公共領域提供新住民語言的諮詢等服務及其他落實新住民語言友善環境的措施,助有績效者的英語獎勵,"},{"start":23317.066,"end":23340.217,"text":"這樣是不是好?可以嗎?那個麥玉珍委員、羅美玲委員,你們兩個我也比較尊重一下。這是每位委員的條文啦,他如果OK我們就OK啦,好不好?OK,好,謝謝。第11條,我們就按照修正,我們就,怎麼樣?司法院,好,司法院,好,司法院有什麼意見?來。"},{"start":23343.914,"end":23348.738,"text":"審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":23356.62,"end":23379.239,"text":"你回答有什麼問題,你講不下去。開一下你的麥克風。來,司法院請問您是?不好意思,我是那個司法院的林怡靜法官。不過這個範圍不是我今天就是授權在這裡表達的內容,但是我要表達是說我們司法院,就是我們司法體系有特約,就是有另外一個同意的機制,然後因為司法"},{"start":23380.34,"end":23394.655,"text":"在使用同意的時候我們有一些進一步的授訊因為他畢竟有一些比較專業的程序跟還有一些用語這樣子那以上補充來法官不好意思第11條的第一項其實就是講政府機關"},{"start":23396.016,"end":23422.237,"text":"政府機關他在處理新住民事務的時候他要使用新住民得以他的語言陳述意見他是可以用他的語言來陳述他的意見然後在這些政府機關機構呢如果需要的時候你們應該要應聘請通一傳一支這些也應該是經過你們那裡所同意的嘛對不對也訓練過的嘛那應該就是沒有意思目前都有相關的機制"},{"start":23422.717,"end":23423.258,"text":"第11條修正通過"},{"start":23435.595,"end":23456.636,"text":"羅美玲委員、蘇巧惠委員、美惠委員你們三個的提案就是羅美玲委員是說政府應提供新住民在我國生活所需的基本資料包含教育、文化、衛生、醫療、社會福利鼓勵他要接受社會適應教育培訓以及中文教育等等的課程"},{"start":23457.316,"end":23476.562,"text":"前項課程的辦理要注意偏遠地區或經濟狀況不加新住民的上課門檻。然後第一項的鼓勵得以獎勵或用其他的方法為之。然後巧惠委員是政府應提供新住民在我國生活所需的基本資訊就差不多。"},{"start":23478.963,"end":23501.461,"text":"職業訓練、中文教育等課程,他沒有講門檻,他講前項課程的實施辦法由行政院定之。美會的是前項資訊應該要盡力提供多語言版本,才能夠使各國的新住民能夠更完整了解我們他們在我國的生活所需的基本資訊,教育、文化、衛生、醫療還有社會福利。"},{"start":23504.718,"end":23509.86,"text":"請美會委員請移民署署長建議哪位委員版本羅美玲委員版本羅美玲委員版本是大家看一下那個文字第一項第一項"},{"start":23535.43,"end":23555.533,"text":"所以第一項你們是沒有問題的對然後呢前項課程的辦理要注意偏遠地區或經濟狀況不佳新住民的上課門檻這個你們有問題要特別這個我們一定會做要特別這麼細這個我也覺得很奇怪這個你們"},{"start":23565.066,"end":23592.28,"text":"對不起,對,好,那個美玲委員。剛剛部長有在問那個上課的門檻,其實應該就是說,因為我們有些新住民他自己本身的這個語言、中文的這個程度,可能就是,這個部分可能我們是要考量的部分,因為有些新住民的這個中文其實不是那麼的好,所以我們在上課的時候,可能就是在辦理課程的時候,可能要注意到說他們語言這個部分,中文不佳的部分。"},{"start":23593.5,"end":23599.804,"text":"第二項可以來做討論第一項是沒有問題前項課程的伴侶要注意偏遠地區或經濟狀況不佳的新住民的上課門檻偏遠地區"},{"start":23610.211,"end":23610.551,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":23640.371,"end":23641.152,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":23659.352,"end":23683.863,"text":"你覺得現在羅美玲委員的第二項跟第三項他是堅持?你剛剛有沒有聽到他的回應?不是不是不是我派人說不堅持好來請紅綠委員我覺得羅美玲委員的意思是三個委員的第一項整理一下那他第二項第三項他也不堅持那第一項要整理一下那你們要麻煩你們這邊你們要怎麼處理啊?"},{"start":23686.027,"end":23711.133,"text":"第一項的話基本上我們三個都差不多可是因為那個美會委員他的第二項有提到前項資訊政府應盡力提供多語言版本這個BASE各國新住民能完整了解我覺得這個加進來也是OK的就是說看看是不是說因為我的第一項可能會寫得比較仔細一點然後再加上美會委員的第二項大家討論看看"},{"start":23716.054,"end":23726.147,"text":"第二項前項資訊政府應該要盡力提供多語言版本然後逼遍各國新住民能夠完整了解"},{"start":23731.735,"end":23750.831,"text":"第一項是羅美玲委員的,然後第二項就是王美惠委員的。現在其他部會的可能不見得會有各種委員,現在比較有的是我們的部分,那各部會"},{"start":23752.012,"end":23769.257,"text":"他最後講應盡力耶,也沒有真的是要完全,對啊。沒有啦,因為主席,現在我要跟署長說的說,你要盡量出力去做啦。因為我覺得說,已經如果你們說這樣,你又要努力去做啦。這應該是,"},{"start":23774.899,"end":23783.126,"text":"一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":23809.43,"end":23826.083,"text":"實際的執行比較重要啦好來看一下那個目前所羅列的是第7條但是如果我們按照條文來排列的話他是增訂第11條我們是不是也改成華語華語王是不是"},{"start":23828.645,"end":23837.393,"text":"中文職業教育培訓以及華語教育是有這樣子嗎?剛剛我們不知道第幾條我忘了是寫我國語你不要條文前後不一致我覺得這個可能擦掉"},{"start":23849.223,"end":23850.584,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":23865.973,"end":23893.472,"text":"政府應提供新住民在我國生活所需的基本資訊,包含教育、文化、衛生、醫療以及社會福利等,並鼓勵其接受社會適應教育、職業教育培訓以及我國語言教育等課程。然後第二項是前項資訊,政府應盡力提供多語言版本,逼變各國新住民能完整了解。"},{"start":23896.069,"end":23904.135,"text":"可以嗎?好!那這條文的增訂第11條之一,我們就按照這個修正通過。欸!對不起!紅綠委員。欸!一樓"},{"start":23925.529,"end":23942.936,"text":"主席,現在他還在說,我這個第二項,叫政府盡力提供多元版本,他現在還怕說,這麼幾十國幾十國,那一國做得到,那一國做得不到,還會被人說這樣不好,"},{"start":23949.111,"end":23972.581,"text":"我是說你們盡量去提供嘛對 其實我不覺得有困難是說基本資訊欸你們看到沒有第11條之前面政府應提供新住民在我國生活所需的基本資訊他沒有告訴你說更多的東西這些基本的資訊應該你們是沒有問題吧"},{"start":23974.762,"end":23977.186,"text":"基本資訊八、教育文化、衛生醫療、社會福利政府應盡力提供"},{"start":23993.989,"end":24022.427,"text":"應該沒有問題了署長好不好好來第11條之一我們按照這個修正條文通過好謝謝來請問一下這個這個施瑤委員嗯完全是就法律文字齁法律文字應該不會有這種盡力提供多元版本避利避變各國性能完整了解法律文字應該沒有這種文字"},{"start":24023.53,"end":24038.896,"text":"那來,法律文字應該是怎麼樣?我們請那個法務部有沒有在?來看一下好不好,麻煩您一下。因為我們事要委員覺得法律的用字不是這樣。麻煩您到這個發言台來好不好?對,謝謝。"},{"start":24052.35,"end":24077.877,"text":"來前項資訊政府應盡力提供多語言版本必變各國新住民能完整了解在法律上的用語按一下旁邊的那個如果對這個必變或能比較有一點比較常見的是用以利可以的以便利的利以利"},{"start":24083.428,"end":24102.214,"text":"以避利各國新住民,比如掌握資訊,沒有完整了解這麼口語的法律文字吧?"},{"start":24110.937,"end":24121.341,"text":"政府應盡力提供多語言版本以利各國新住民完整了解理解理解理解資訊理解美匯委員"},{"start":24136.877,"end":24137.578,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":24157.97,"end":24182.501,"text":"其實美會委員他的第二項其實我在第11條裡面其實是類似一樣的我那時候我的第11條是說政府於推動第7條就是我們討論這一條第9條以及其他支援政策是因努力提供多語言服務我的字眼是這樣對我的第11條其實就是美會委員的第二項啦主席看是要"},{"start":24187.734,"end":24208.719,"text":"所以第7條第9條就是前面的那個嗎?那個文字嗎?我的第11條其實就是美會委員的第8條的第二項。我知道,但是你是說政府在推動第7條跟第9條的部分。所以第7條跟第9條就是前面這些嗎?是是是,第7條對。包括教育文化這些。"},{"start":24209.179,"end":24231.68,"text":"對,那如果是說把他的第1句拿掉,把政府於推動第7條、第9條以及其他支援政策時這個拿掉的話,我們說前項資訊政府應努力提供多語言服務這樣子呢?就比較簡單明了。好,你的第二項變成前項資訊政府應努力提供多語言服務。OK嗎?"},{"start":24234.758,"end":24247.448,"text":"美會委員這樣我來請問,這樣可以嗎?來,署長。前項資訊政府應努力提供多語言服務。請問這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":24266.153,"end":24270.736,"text":"最後的定案,第11條之一按照修正通過。"},{"start":24274.282,"end":24285.764,"text":"現在我們來看一下不在決議,對。因為我就是,我表達我的想法,我是說,我們想這個法可以你們理解和了解做啦。不是說,我們想了解你們沒辦法做,自愛人生也不可以大家坐在這裡討論,我們有什麼意見你們要講啊。"},{"start":24299.9,"end":24314.065,"text":"好 謝謝組長這樣了解了以後真的是我們在修法的時候請你們要心力準備的來而不是就是認為就是說朝委我今天不會審查條文好不好不要用這種心態來謝謝好我們先來來談一下兩個附帶決議來請宣讀"},{"start":24321.792,"end":24350.967,"text":"附帶決議一、有鑒於居住台灣地區之人民受歧視申訴辦法第三條及第五條之規定,要求以書面為之及應以中文擅具,顯對不安中文之新住民及不友善。經查自民國97年8月1日至113年3月31日之受歧視申訴案件計36件,顯與社會現況不符,仍要求內政部緊速檢討居住台灣地區之人民受歧視申訴辦法,並使新住民便利使用申訴機制。提案人委員徐欣穎等三人。"},{"start":24351.767,"end":24376.21,"text":"附帶決議二,有鑒於中央法規涉及違反消除一切形式種族歧視國際公約之餘列管法規計26項,行政機關法規修正調整進度遲緩,僅解除列管三項,因加緊腳步追上進度,讓歧視在台灣完全不再存在,遠要求內政部緊速盤點,會商相關機關就反歧視相關法案行政命令檢討修正。提案人委員徐欣盈等3人。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":24377.589,"end":24391.722,"text":"請問各位委員對於這個附帶決議有沒有意見來請署長報告一下那個第一案那個是最主要是說提到說對於不安中文的新住民對於什麼對不起"},{"start":24392.683,"end":24394.665,"text":"不按中文的新住民極不友善"},{"start":24419.188,"end":24431.676,"text":"第二段第二段原要求內政部把它改成移民署然後儘速改善因為這個不涉及到辦法的修正"},{"start":24433.782,"end":24454.539,"text":"請問一下徐新英委員提案委員在不在來請這個徐新英委員他有事請我幫忙發言針對這個署長講的我們可以您的意思是說第一個是移民署內政部改成移民署那只要改善就可以把這個問題可以解決不用去檢討這個申訴辦法"},{"start":24458.822,"end":24484.367,"text":"那我請教一下申訴辦法裡面有沒有要求說現在這個第三條跟第五條要求因為這些新住民有一些人他的中文不是很好甚至他不太會用書寫的方式完整去表達我們現在實際上寫英文來的我們也幫忙去翻譯然後去處理可是你有沒有要求說這些新住民要用書寫然後用中文為之沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":24486.785,"end":24505.198,"text":"那我請教一下第三條跟第五條的規定是什麼?來,第三條和第五條的規定要求是要以書面為之,以及要以中文擅具。"},{"start":24506.38,"end":24534.333,"text":"然後對不按中文的新住民極不友善所以希望你們移民署要檢討要改善你自己說用改善所以你可以改善嗎第三條第五條的規定你可以改善嗎因為我剛剛講的我們實際上如果不是寫中文來的我們也幫忙翻譯然後去了解去處理所以就"},{"start":24539.856,"end":24540.857,"text":"四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":24569.856,"end":24593.895,"text":"就列一個第三條、第五條來,請問一下美玲委員知道的第三條跟第五條嗎?什麼?對,我們要看一下不知道,好,來來來,是說辦法第三條、第五條是不是來看一下現在影印可能來不及你方便讓我們怎麼樣了解一下第三條、第五條吧因為提案委員在"},{"start":24595.575,"end":24596.836,"text":"第三條是寫申訴書的?第三條我們看一下申訴書的提起"},{"start":24616.311,"end":24638.642,"text":"因致知悉受歧視致權利受不法侵害之次日起兩個月以內以書面為之,但是侵害發生已經超過一年者不得提起。然後第二個部分是前項"},{"start":24642.378,"end":24666.993,"text":"前項申訴的提起申訴書應以中文擅具的這個部分申訴書應以中文擅具其附有外文資料者應就申訴有關部分具備中文一本但主管機關認定有必要的時候得通知申訴人檢據其他部分之中文一本這個我們來修好了"},{"start":24670.132,"end":24688.812,"text":"請事要委員不好意思那個署長我是第一次看到這個居住台灣地區之人民受歧視申訴辦法那看起來他是97年來發布的那如果就以剛剛我們直接挑第三條跟第五條來看我自己就會覺得這是一個年久失修的申訴辦法"},{"start":24689.793,"end":24705.947,"text":"例如說在第二條裡面我們看第二條到底哪些東西構成他足以去認為不法侵害的要件你這邊列的是國籍、種族、膚色、階級、出生地等因素那我問你性別有沒有我問你其他的工作狀態有沒有"},{"start":24709.35,"end":24730.09,"text":"這個是跟魔法一樣那我在這裡要跟您討論是說因為部長也在因為我們在倡議不管在司法法治委員會或是內政委員會未來諮詢過我們現在是在催生台灣的反歧視法那反歧視法是一個更全觀的那它包括不同的族群也包括新住民它的面向是非常廣的"},{"start":24730.991,"end":24759.189,"text":"所以那個是一個我們會認為更完善的部分那現在因為這個辦法看起來我自己感覺上就非常的怪異譬如說第三條為什麼是所謂歧視治權力受不法侵害之次日期兩個月內以書面為之為什麼是兩個月然後呢侵害發生已遇一年者就不得提起為什麼只有一年很多東西譬如說我們在講這個很多的這個性騷或其他事情他的"},{"start":24759.989,"end":24787.361,"text":"他的申訴期限是更長的所以我如果以我現在非常rough的看到這個條文第三條的第一項我就會覺得這整個可能申訴辦法都應當更嚴謹的去檢視當然很謝謝這個徐信穎委員這邊的提案他是focus在語言的使用的不友善這當然是可以討論但只是演繹出來的其他面向我個人就覺得這整個申訴辦法都非常的年久失修"},{"start":24788.021,"end":24814.98,"text":"但是今天的附帶決議是只有第三條跟第五條嗎?第三條第五條我想這個署長都已經說他可以來移民署可以盡速的來改善那至於其他條文的話其實是不是有其他我要提或者是移民署你們要主動提就希望你們能夠認為不符合現在的這個年代的需求你們也提出來但是今天的附帶決議徐欣盈提的就是只有第三條跟第五條好不好?"},{"start":24816.76,"end":24842.845,"text":"對,來請部長,謝謝謝謝昭偉讓我來解釋一下就是沒有錯,因為是97年到現在當然裡面有一些失疑沒有辦法跟得上目前時代的部分那如果我們未來的新住民的這個權益保障法通過之後我們會修執法或者是說現在行政院也在修反歧視法我們會把這兩個合在一起未來再提出所謂的這個行政命令或其他執法的時候會把它加進去裡面"},{"start":24843.445,"end":24865.403,"text":"所以非常謝謝徐委員提到這個部分除了原來第3條第5條馬上要做修正因為是頁面上的修正以外未來這一整個的這個相關的這個命令或是辦法的話我們會跟著母法通過以後就做修正好謝謝部長的補充說明那因為徐欣英委員是我們本委委員的他只有講到第3條第5條所以是不是請這個需要委員也能夠"},{"start":24866.164,"end":24884.022,"text":"理解好不好當然謝謝您剛剛的提醒那個部長也已經回應您了所以那個附帶決議的第一這個原要求移民署競訴改善這個部分沒問題嗎對不對好我們就按照這個文字的修正然後提案徐欣盈張智倫還有"},{"start":24885.259,"end":24886.601,"text":"張智倫委員張智倫委員"},{"start":24908.875,"end":24919.204,"text":"就盡速改善,好不好?對,就盡速改善。這個後面的話,這個居住台灣地區這個算出辦法是劃掉了。對,好,來。附帶決議第二個,有沒有問題?附帶決議的第二個,這個"},{"start":24928.752,"end":24944.689,"text":"因為這個部分是消除一切種子、歧視國際公約我們有檢視過的就是說各部會可能有些有疑慮的條文現在都各部會他要各自的去修正"},{"start":24945.45,"end":24965.8,"text":"那這個修正相關的管制是在行政院有一個防制人口犯慮及消除一切種族歧視的協調匯報來列管所以這個部分後面寫說原要求內政部進促盤點的部分是不是改成定期盤點"},{"start":24966.92,"end":24985.055,"text":"定期盤點其他文字你沒問題就是這個競速把它修正為定期我們盤點的部分內政部夜館的部分我們可以定好所以你認為文字應該怎麼修正是原因要求內政部就夜館部分定期盤點"},{"start":24986.036,"end":25001.311,"text":"就業管部分定期盤點張智倫委員您看到了沒有就是他的那些文字的修正現在署長的意思說在他的業管範圍之內的他可以儘速來盤點請教一下署長那會商相關機關"},{"start":25008.971,"end":25009.632,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":25023.514,"end":25051.101,"text":"會商應該沒問題吧會商也可以啦就是說如果有牽涉到我們就會商對啊你就會商相關機關嘛他沒有讓你就是一定不過最主要還是就我們的部分會同商量會同商量會商叫做會同商量對那我前面還是對啊就是要求就內政部的業務業管部分嘛定期盤點嘛然後你們也會會商相關機關嘛對不對"},{"start":25054.302,"end":25064.786,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":25077.711,"end":25101.658,"text":"好來請問一下好那就拜託好市長部長這邊來看一下文字的修正好原要求內政部業管就要求就內政部來原要求內政部就業管部分"},{"start":25103.356,"end":25126.054,"text":"定期盤點然後會商相關機關拿掉然後就反歧視相關法案行政命令來檢討修正好請問一下這樣修正文字可以嗎好按照我們剛剛提的這個修正文字這個附帶決議第二案通過謝謝好我們現在先宣讀協商結論"},{"start":25129.133,"end":25154.963,"text":"宣讀本法草案審查結論法案名稱保留第一條照委員蘇喬惠等提案通過第二條、第三條、第四條、第五條、第六條保留增訂第二條之一照委員羅美玲提案通過增訂第二條之二照委員羅美玲提案修正通過第七條照蘇喬惠委員提案修正通過"},{"start":25156.98,"end":25175.292,"text":"委員羅美玲等提案第2條、委員蘇喬惠等提案第10條、委員王美惠等提案第9條、委員邱振興等提案第4條保留。第8條保留。第9條修正通過。增訂第9條之一。照委員羅美玲等提案第9條修正通過。第10條保留。"},{"start":25176.363,"end":25186.33,"text":"第11條修正通過。增訂第11條之一修正通過。第12條修正通過。第13條修正通過。第14條修正通過。第15條修正通過。第16條照國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨團委員張智倫等、委員蘇喬瑞等、委員邱正軍等提案通過。第17條修正通過。宣傳完畢。"},{"start":25227.436,"end":25234.86,"text":"請問各位委員按照剛才的協商結論通過請問有沒有異議就協商的部分就是通過的條文對"},{"start":25240.579,"end":25269.322,"text":"對保留的也保留了我們這個有文字修正的也都已經通過了所以我再說一下本次會議審查通過的條文或者是保留的條文我們也請內政部還有相關主管機關必須就行政院的版本草案來全面檢視以利本黨團未來本法案未來順利進行好不好那這個是提醒你們的必須要提醒你們的部分"},{"start":25273.59,"end":25273.71,"text":"主席"},{"start":25293.832,"end":25313.184,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25316.986,"end":25317.967,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查"},{"start":25329.033,"end":25343.81,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25350.397,"end":25363.751,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25369.077,"end":25377.424,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案案 案 。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案 。五、繼"},{"start":25391.017,"end":25403.903,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25416.227,"end":25427.125,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25429.026,"end":25448.474,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25456.783,"end":25484.508,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25486.391,"end":25497.696,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25506.168,"end":25513.791,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25525.896,"end":25554.411,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25555.772,"end":25567.177,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25583.525,"end":25593.053,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25600.094,"end":25612.262,"text":"國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中、國中"},{"start":25632.745,"end":25646.016,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25653.055,"end":25673.56,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25680.862,"end":25683.954,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25685.405,"end":25705.311,"text":"是嗎?我今天一定不會回來,不是今天一定不會回來,今天一定不會回來,因為今天我們自己的健康財,其他的人平凡啊。我告訴你,我這次的國會,這次的國會,常常都說什麼改革,因為大家好好的照顧自己,就不會讓大家貴一點的功夫。"},{"start":25713.714,"end":25720.856,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25736.721,"end":25740.506,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25756.404,"end":25759.868,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25771.301,"end":25779.587,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25794.777,"end":25807.521,"text":"四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25821.566,"end":25831.816,"text":"審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25838.422,"end":25853.717,"text":"繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25858.301,"end":25871.289,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":25887.898,"end":25893.084,"text":"兩、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25912.301,"end":25925.145,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25926.325,"end":25940.863,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第16會期內政委員會第17會期內政委員會第18會期內政委員會第18會期內政委員會第19會期內政委員會第19會期內政委員會第20會期內政委員會第21會期內政委員會第22會期內政委員會第"},{"start":25942.105,"end":25957.102,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25962.368,"end":25985.604,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":25986.545,"end":26005.213,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26009.236,"end":26032.056,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26035.318,"end":26061.155,"text":"我們嘉義今天在蓋新大樓有跟我們內政部爭議這個爭議我感覺很奇怪北東,嘉義北東對,一個就大樓十幾到十年十幾到十年很好笑而且早就核准行政院早就核准那都一直,我都覺得你還值得你還值得你還值得你還值得你還值得"},{"start":26062.336,"end":26078.564,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":26091.892,"end":26106.367,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26109.109,"end":26117.811,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":26133.154,"end":26138.496,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26154.502,"end":26158.069,"text":"新住民基本法草案案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":26164.048,"end":26168.569,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":26185.994,"end":26198.697,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":26215.427,"end":26219.977,"text":"他們當時說,說這些是我們不可以買的,那你究竟是不是人家吃慣了?"},{"start":26224.282,"end":26224.502,"text":"啊,對啊。"},{"start":26249.861,"end":26276.392,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬"},{"start":26277.332,"end":26285.976,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26306.647,"end":26331.225,"text":"一、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新"},{"start":26336.108,"end":26351.214,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26358.677,"end":26371.291,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26374.224,"end":26396.681,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案。一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案。一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案。一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案。一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案。一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案。一、繼續審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新"},{"start":26398.523,"end":26405.874,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26414.605,"end":26422.43,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26432.337,"end":26437.261,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":26446.608,"end":26463.764,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26469.049,"end":26487.099,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草"},{"start":26488.62,"end":26492.584,"text":"副副副副副副副副副副副副副"},{"start":26510.06,"end":26525.73,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26528.012,"end":26552.682,"text":"審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26555.606,"end":26583.774,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本"},{"start":26583.814,"end":26602.05,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼續審查國"},{"start":26604.202,"end":26618.67,"text":"新住民基本法草案案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26625.836,"end":26651.796,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。八、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。九、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。十、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26656.32,"end":26671.373,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":26674.425,"end":26701.23,"text":"繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。七、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。八、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。九、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。10、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。11、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。12、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。13、繼續審查國民黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。14"},{"start":26708.911,"end":26726.256,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26731.072,"end":26747.07,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":26748.351,"end":26764.411,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":26767.104,"end":26778.511,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":26788.006,"end":26814.724,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬"},{"start":26818.041,"end":26821.023,"text":"還要拍!秉修農賣牌啊!還要拍!"},{"start":26847.52,"end":26861.687,"text":"好這個討論事項新住民權益保障法草案以及新住民基本法草案等7案已併案審查完均凝聚審查提報院會討論請問在場的委員要不要須經過黨團協商好要嗎好請紅綠委員"},{"start":26870.871,"end":26892.564,"text":"不是啊早上我們協商後來結果是到底不是說就再審一次今天今天把它討論完然後我們等月板進來我們再討論一次對因為早上是說我們就是等月板其實等月板進來我來隨時排都可以所以但是我們今天還是初委員會好不好"},{"start":26894.365,"end":26899.208,"text":"韓國瑜院長召開協商之前,召委我還可以再排一次黨團協商。行政院板什麼時候送進來,我就什麼時候排。"},{"start":26916.148,"end":26925.994,"text":"主席覺得這樣子啦就是說如果是主席我們看起來不管怎麼樣其實今天大家都這麼認真審了其實我們也只不過是說讓院版來那個一定是討論過最完整的版本嘛或者至少是現在政府的態度我們把今天0612的委員會討論共識的版本和院版再做一次比較我真的覺得沒有差這樣一次的委員會討論時間"},{"start":26944.685,"end":26950.651,"text":"也許這樣只要一比較那一天我們根本就有共識甚至不用協商這樣不用等一個月可能還更快可以完成我覺得其實這個是你要說時間的話這個反而是更快的這是第一點第二點如果以討論的狀況來講"},{"start":26962.402,"end":26983.991,"text":"我也必須說啦其實主席您在這幾次主持的委員會裡面啊都讓我們充分討論啊我們也都很認真討論其實不好意思齁我覺得好像比去草野協商院長主持的那個坦白講我們第一你看人數是所有這個關心議題的委員會都可以坐在裡面然後也都可以暢所欲言主席你也都調整時間調整得很好"},{"start":26985.672,"end":27001.477,"text":"我是覺得反正大家都要在一次嘛那是不是也可以讓我們有這個就像海保法也是好幾次會議啊吳清明在當召委的時候光是那個海保法對不對大家有意見也是留在委員會留了好幾次那這委員會是不是可以大家互相一下"},{"start":27003.669,"end":27027.461,"text":"好,請劉協廷委員這個,因為本來大家就覺得說交朝野協商就是直接到黨團三長那邊嘛但因為我們前面其實還有一次是由趙偉、趙集的協商嘛那我覺得如果在趙偉、趙集協商的過程之中我們就比照今天的模式我們一樣逐條逐條來跑那是不是實際上他一樣有審查的效果然後我們就留下我們就留下紀錄啊就這個初委員會之後要進朝野協商嘛要一個月"},{"start":27028.649,"end":27043.661,"text":"但這個月的時間那還不排嘛那這件事情大家高度關注所以高清召委召集的時候大家都會來嘛那來的時候我們再針對今天還沒有共識的八個條文再做完整的討論那如果順利那個院板進來一起看過"},{"start":27044.821,"end":27070.121,"text":"就順利出去,也不用進到院長主持的協商嘛就可以直接排院會,就敲唇式過關這樣大家都落袋但我們之所以現在講說還是要先出委員會就是擔心萬一到了最後的最後的最後大家還是沒有共識,必須表決大家還是要尊重那個30天協商期的法律嘛那當然講柯總召有講事出善意說這個可以用政治的角度來處理可是問題是政治角度來處理的時候其他兩黨的黨編要同意嘛"},{"start":27070.481,"end":27090.77,"text":"那這件事情顯然政治今天沒有共識那沒有共識的話那我們是不是走一個相對穩健的路啦沒有沒有對 直接講沒有我都超誠實的可是你們總召來有說對 啊問題是這也是三個黨邊要有共識啦不是啊你們總召你們不聽"},{"start":27093.154,"end":27096.235,"text":"我是覺得因為行政院板都已經快完成行政院板也有誠意也在做最完備的討論"},{"start":27120.504,"end":27134.867,"text":"那我是衷心的建議大家今天坐在這裡內政委員會的委員的認真專業都很讓大家感佩感動那我想大家共同的目標是一個就是讓這個法案更好更周全"},{"start":27135.848,"end":27161.59,"text":"那如果能夠再爭取讓院板併進來就條文條次在委員會的階段然後能夠逐一的來比對讓他能夠更落實委員會中心主義然後呢我相信今天的保留的幾個條文其實也包括名稱啦那院板一定可以提供一個更好的討論的範本然後大家更集思廣益"},{"start":27162.791,"end":27186.233,"text":"所以是大家共同的目標應當是如何讓這個版本更好那代表內政委員會一起用心審議專業審議的心血結晶所以不是說我真的我非常同意剛剛喬惠委員講的搞不好再爭取一次委員會然後併案進來好好審查在朝委這麼能夠主持跟調和鼎賴的狀況之下你也許到最後都不需要保留協商"},{"start":27187.463,"end":27188.824,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":27211.235,"end":27219.018,"text":"謝謝我們召委,謝謝大家辛苦,因為我們是,剛才我們劉委員講得很清楚,我們先出委員會,所以,對,所以我的意見我就可以講,你要聽我講完嘛,有頭有尾嘛,對不對,對,我們就是,劉委員也跟我們大家討論說,我們就是先出委員會,在"},{"start":27233.764,"end":27255.981,"text":"學商之前,如果那個行政院板來,我們召委再來說,大家就來再討論。我覺得我們已經讓了一大步,我們希望完整。就是我們就是討論嘛,我們也就覺得說這樣子,大家到最後,大家就是要用這樣子的方式,我們覺得也很好。所以我們就不要說在這邊說,我們不是不要討論,"},{"start":27259.643,"end":27287.117,"text":"因為我們說要等願版的時候如果是願版真的出來因為願版的話要八個部會要去協調還要去有願版但是呢如果到六月份現在十幾號了如果是沒有辦法出來的話變成我們就時間討論所以我們沒辦法是要去這樣子的那個啦所以我們希望"},{"start":27287.917,"end":27315.472,"text":"我們希望就是說我們剛才我們已經表明很清楚我們先就是大家如果沒有辦法達成共識我們就出院會我們再來說等就是黨團協商如果黨團協商之前我們的院板來了我們再來去再來逐條一次是沒有問題了我們早晚也答應我們我們現在我們委員也是這樣子的同意所以拜託大家"},{"start":27317.416,"end":27341.506,"text":"我們請洪烏委員,抱歉我覺得啦,大家都這麼有共識都已經討論成這樣了而且,內政部這邊也說行政院也說6月20他一定會送到立法院來那我覺得大家都這樣子有共識的情況之下我們再花個時間來討論我覺得是對法案最好的"},{"start":27342.989,"end":27370.091,"text":"對,所以我我知道昭偉的意思但我還是請教一下議事人員昭偉說的那個主條他那個是協商的討論跟委員會的討論有一樣嗎法律意義上是完全不一樣喔我必須要這樣我覺得我只是昭偉我不是說你這樣做不行我是說我們每個內政委員會的委員我覺得不管院版哪個版我們明明知道時間來得及那"},{"start":27373.673,"end":27400.832,"text":"這個他們黨團的總召他們也都有這個共識的情況之下那我們應該就是好好的討論一下我們內政委員會也要對內政委員會自己負責不然我們內政委員會所有的委員我覺得這樣出去我覺得大家對我們也覺得還有的你們就要這樣子沒有充分的討論我個人的看法是這樣所以我會拜託就是說召委"},{"start":27401.733,"end":27429.782,"text":"大家都有共識的情況之下我覺得這個討論應該很快那我們如果討論好我們也不用協商啊就直接就可以表決了啊那反而更快啊對不對我們如果再討論一次都不用保留協商反正直接表決就好啦這樣反而更快好所以這個第一輪大家的說明都已經說完了齁好的等一下羅美玲委員還沒說謝謝"},{"start":27432.069,"end":27452.9,"text":"其實我今天早上其實已經有表明立場就是說其實我們一直都希望說病案跟行政院的版本病案審查那當然後來當然我們還是先審了嘛跑了這一輪那我剛剛也跟智倫委員還有劉雪婷講說其實今天討論的這方式其實讓我我在想大家都應該都是很滿意我們是充分的討論"},{"start":27453.8,"end":27453.92,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":27475.054,"end":27488.041,"text":"就好好來做討論我是覺得這應該是比較適合的方式那我也希望說待會行政院我希望說待會我們部長是不是把一個時程稍微跟大家講一下我們的OK好"},{"start":27490.402,"end":27505.924,"text":"好,我們再請吳思耀委員不好意思,不好意思,嘮叨一點點我想從那個立法技術面來講因為不管名稱未來是落在權益保障法或者是基本法如果是基本法的話它的位階是非常高的就是憲法等級的"},{"start":27506.625,"end":27507.246,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":27529.56,"end":27531.081,"text":"立法院第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":27554.332,"end":27580.175,"text":"每一條都可以充分的去對否則你直接黨團協商像剛剛主席所宣布就是保留前幾條那如果有一些院版更好的精神跟內容他可能不是在前面幾條可以塞進來他也許條次是在後面的那這樣就會變成東拼西湊上都會去檢臥了大家想讓這個法好好立的那個這個良法美意啦所以我完全是從那個立法技術上來說"},{"start":27581.636,"end":27595.156,"text":"今天如果是直接送出委員會等到依舊是高進委員排的但是是委員會level的黨團寫上可是他那個條次受限條控的那個空間就被壓縮了那也會為了幾條文而"},{"start":27597.159,"end":27621.602,"text":"就是真的有點拼裝車我覺得這個都不是大家這麼專業嚴謹共同的想法所以只差一個禮拜是真的很希望說能夠再爭取召委同意辛苦一點我想召委辛苦都沒有問題是最阿信的就是再讓委員會再一次等病案回來真的我是覺得在立法技術上這樣才是嚴謹的"},{"start":27622.523,"end":27648.789,"text":"好,非常謝謝各委員的發言,還有委員要發言嗎?那個,這樣子啦,因為,因為其實齁,今天保留幾個條文,不外乎第一個名稱,第二個範圍嘛,第三個要不要轉折機關,它就是三,就這三個問題了,其他我認為都是相對肢解,然後,今天之所以我們前面講說,針對後面的條文,它比較簡單,但都是一些內容的部分,大家已經做了充分的發言跟討論,我們基本上每一條的時候,我們也都問了一下行政黨委的意見嘛,"},{"start":27649.469,"end":27669.512,"text":"那其實院版是只是他沒有走完報院的行政程序但他其實心裡都知道法條長什麼樣子所以說我認為出來的起義也不會差很多啦所以說我覺得說這個法案的這個階段的討論是可以透過黨團協調的方式處理嘛那委員召集的時候大家都來嘛其實就還是可以用一樣的方式來審查也可以充分的表達意見我是覺得是OK的"},{"start":27670.473,"end":27689.536,"text":"如果說其他比如說你成本送出去的那一種那當然就會有很多問題啦但我覺得今天其實內容上大家都確定了只有大的政治方向上要經過一個再討論的決策那我覺得那個透過這個召委召集的協商的角度來處理內政委會再經過一次討論我認為我認為在立法基礎上是可行的以上"},{"start":27691.351,"end":27710.092,"text":"謝謝劉錫廷委員的補充說明,其實我剛剛想回應的也就是這樣,就是說因為這個法案的名稱其實就在我們的委員會在討論其實一定是沒結果,因為他一定是要這個很重大的名稱,一個叫做這個"},{"start":27712.934,"end":27735.965,"text":"新住民基本法一個叫做權益保障嘛權益保障法跟基本法兩個概念就如同剛剛這個施耀委員所講的所以這個部分可能在我們委員會裡面討論可能也比較會沒有辦法定其實呢剛剛牛許廷委員講了各位委員也非常的辛苦我們每一條條文也充分的討論了"},{"start":27737.245,"end":27740.307,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":27762.239,"end":27764.92,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":27790.109,"end":27813.989,"text":"能夠這個能夠全面檢視那我再念一下本次會議審查通過的條文保留的條文請內政部還有相關主管機關必須就行政院版本的草案那雖然現在我們還不知道有沒有行政院的版本因為剛剛內政部部長講的是還在他們內政部裡面並沒有提到行政院會"},{"start":27818.35,"end":27835.454,"text":"必須就行政院版本的草案來全面檢視,以利我們這個法案在黨團協商的時候我們順利進行。我想說各位會如果還有意見我們先休息一下,因為我們吳昭偉我們兩個人是最溝通最順暢的,所以我們來跟昭偉兩個溝通一下好不好?"},{"start":27841.775,"end":27842.055,"text":"主席"},{"start":27855.629,"end":27857.71,"text":"我都回來了。我都回來了。"},{"start":27883.727,"end":27888.812,"text":"繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":27914.341,"end":27929.505,"text":"警察人員人事條例那個三屬條是什麼內容我都還沒看清楚那個所得替代率扣一點我們扣四年說不能再扣就這麼簡單已經發了我就是看到因為今天退警協會有在外面"},{"start":27952.153,"end":27963.064,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":27975.834,"end":27978.296,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":27996.932,"end":28018.821,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案。五、繼二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草案。五、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具、「新住民基本法草"},{"start":28022.568,"end":28023.91,"text":"就是兩個人一樣的事"},{"start":28036.75,"end":28054.027,"text":"今天的結論今天的結論跟原版剛剛不是有調出來一個那個對照表嗎?然後裡面就有一個行政院長嗯?行理有?那你來對答我什麼意思?因為他們剛剛不是只有講某幾講過我沒版本嗎?不是講我沒有版本嗎?你早說啊"},{"start":28059.394,"end":28069.622,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":28081.943,"end":28092.413,"text":"這也沒有什麼好表決,沒有共識啊?沒有共識啊?沒有要表決啊?直接講?一進來我們就協商嘛,就再開一次這樣子就好啦。"},{"start":28112.523,"end":28117.169,"text":"那要程序委員會"},{"start":28120.814,"end":28137.066,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":28148.804,"end":28166.488,"text":"萬一比如說6月28再開一次對不對6月28再開還是沒有公示嘛那你到時候還是要保留協商嘛但是你保留協商的時候就一個月的冷凍期第一會期就過不了了我們的目標是第一會期要過所以剛剛我講柯總召柯總召是要第一會期要過對那我們要的是我們希望我們的月版是可以再實質討論的所以我們準備進行所以也不用什麼方法沒關係我們這個談判是這樣嘛你要的是什麼不要的是什麼那大家不就要看海報"},{"start":28188.648,"end":28202.659,"text":"他的意思就是因為這個會期過他用政治保證的方式然後叫我們等院門問題是這個政治解決的前提一定是三黨黨的黨員要同意嘛後來兩支兩黨沒有簽名啊對啊 那就是"},{"start":28203.98,"end":28222.494,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":28229.179,"end":28231.001,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":28261.34,"end":28283.524,"text":"三、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查台灣民眾黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":28286.374,"end":28310.123,"text":"最後沒有簽字啊,沒有畫押嘛,後來最後是沒有畫押嘛。董事長也是說有跟我們談論,沒有,完全沒有,不要每次都跟我們講說,沒有講過。現在怕的是那個一個月嘛,因為如果一旦把我們在談的時候把那個一個月算了就拿掉是不是?沒辦法拿掉啦,有可能規定啦。稍微審商的時候,三黨的旁邊都不要來?"},{"start":28314.884,"end":28333.611,"text":"我們先內政再開一次內政前段先開一項組織真的破裂了你再找黨編再來對啊對啊對啊我們大家有共識拜託董莊不要來喔然後我們就在委員會裡面"},{"start":28334.872,"end":28341.241,"text":"對阿,我們就先願板跟我們現在今天的結果合,我們就再好好再走一遍,好嗎?"},{"start":28345.973,"end":28362.964,"text":"對阿當然阿當然是這樣子阿當然是這樣子阿我們也來尊重我們大家討論那麼辛苦阿我們在討論最好了對不對"},{"start":28365.626,"end":28394.603,"text":"如果沒有明確的相沖,因為我講嘛,就是等高興召委召集協商的時候我們大家都來嘛,所以他實質上他還是委員會的人討論嘛你提案的包含,這個可以處理?不會不會不會,怎麼會漏掉你不可能,我們會支持你是的"},{"start":28422.145,"end":28424.045,"text":"白搞了就對了,好吧,那就白搞吧"},{"start":28441.391,"end":28451.094,"text":"如果加開委員會,從這樣子的邏輯上也是全部要重跑,那如果是這樣那就乾脆黨員要比較快,那還是要重跑,還是同一批人"},{"start":28453.074,"end":28477.76,"text":"那就乾脆就是用協商這樣我想這其實就是政治問題嘛萬一到了最後的最後還是沒有公司要表決嘛就是卡這個問題嘛避免調適跟矛盾的問題嘛好吧那就這樣可能會影響後面的法條啦"},{"start":28482.062,"end":28490.76,"text":"我們把今天討論出來有共識做成黨員是重要參考只要沒有相悖就以那個優先碼阿如果真的有狀況的時候黨員還是可以做個微調就這樣子阿"},{"start":28495.985,"end":28500.186,"text":"對,立法變成一個版本。其實就是前幾條,他不是審,就是從頭到尾用協商的方式處理。"},{"start":28514.652,"end":28540.052,"text":"我覺得這樣可以我覺得這樣可以0612會議版這兩個版本這樣 我覺得小慧委員這樣講OK啦那就先送了那我們現在就是送出對 但我們0612的版本會整合出一個跟原版做對照"},{"start":28543.752,"end":28561.577,"text":"二十號送出來之後我們就來排嘛可是可是等一下還重點是院盤什麼時候會出來?到時候沒有出來就20號嘛對不對20號院會拍掉嘛好好好"},{"start":28564.222,"end":28579.658,"text":"六、立下禮拜四的行政院院會就會通過了行政院院版所以交回就會全案保留的案子是委員會的公職版可以加上公職版?公職版版跟院版,並安協商啦,對啦,好"},{"start":28584.98,"end":28591.686,"text":"六月的最後一個禮拜來提名這件事情?"},{"start":28594.485,"end":28614.086,"text":"對,他進來之後一排好就約大家有空的時間就來是這樣沒錯我本來是希望今天開到9點把他全部講完你們要回去對行政院說一下不早點來"},{"start":28616.419,"end":28643.033,"text":"對 還是有期限嘛 到最後會有期限可是5月20已經好了好了 這個就別申了第一就是行政院 這個內政部6月20要把它處理完嘛好 送進來行政院行政院行政院好不好然後第二個就是以今日會議的版本整合完的版本跟院版做並案協商那如果沒有構思咧沒有構思 協商完沒有構思也會有表決啊你只有兩個版本可以表決嘛才會有兩個版本可以表決"},{"start":28644.266,"end":28647.415,"text":"因為你不能八個版本就去表決不對啊協商是整個版本"},{"start":28651.873,"end":28672.3,"text":"今天是不用啦,今天講好了就是直接做決議了,我沒有表決啦,何必呢?下一次是協商啦,協商也沒有表決的問題啊,協商就是喬喬喬喬喬喬,有公式的就變成有公式的,沒有公式的條文就分開,就送到院門,送到院門表決。今天送出去,一個月之內就處理完,16號可以表決。最差的狀況是怎樣?"},{"start":28679.075,"end":28693.261,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":28707.236,"end":28707.576,"text":"這要審查報告?"},{"start":28729.541,"end":28755.391,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新"},{"start":28756.516,"end":28780.095,"text":"中間都會留會議記錄嘛,對不對?這樣就好啦。我們都來,而且以內政委員會為發言主體嘛,我們有這樣子一個決議。沒有留記錄嘛,這個就是留記錄,正式的會議就是留記錄嘛。"},{"start":28787.549,"end":28795.055,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":28800.449,"end":28823.81,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第"},{"start":28824.09,"end":28846.775,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第15會期內政委員會第"},{"start":28849.793,"end":28850.453,"text":"一、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":28870.703,"end":28870.943,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝 趙偉不會不會不會"},{"start":28888.675,"end":28890.677,"text":"這個是女生最忌諱最忌諱"},{"start":28904.776,"end":28913.986,"text":"繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。六、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。七、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":28922.698,"end":28934.252,"text":"他們就算不掌換人,這個法有差異那麼大嗎?我覺得上來我稍微微調就好,我搞不懂。他跟我說52年才開始。今年都沒有開新住民的匯報。"},{"start":28940.869,"end":28944.573,"text":"對阿我覺得應該只有部長跟那個什麼換人"},{"start":28958.519,"end":28961.08,"text":"一月13號就知道總統是誰了就可以進行了"},{"start":28984.755,"end":28987.78,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第22屆第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會"},{"start":28992.914,"end":28998.899,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。五、繼"},{"start":29017.45,"end":29020.652,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":29042.641,"end":29058.646,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":29069.53,"end":29070.231,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":29073.629,"end":29078.77,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":29102.396,"end":29111.558,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":29135.582,"end":29145.027,"text":"二、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。三、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":29165.185,"end":29169.068,"text":"三、繼續審查國民黨團擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。四、繼續審查《新住民基本法草案》案。五、繼"},{"start":29182.278,"end":29198.949,"text":"我待會就會說本次會議審查通過的條文調遲一數不明相關願意授權主席林志榮經理,討論事項這個論述的條件,並定案審查委員軍,民進審查報告情報院會討論,然後要不要進入他們的資料,然後再來就是請行政院以6月21號起向相關草案判決委員來質疑,"},{"start":29212.638,"end":29225.03,"text":"副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長副長"},{"start":29243.729,"end":29263.93,"text":"立法院第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會"},{"start":29268.663,"end":29269.063,"text":"主席"},{"start":29284.343,"end":29304.57,"text":"好,非常好。我們今天的討論還是按照我們內政委員會非常平和、非常順利的來討論結束。來,我先讀一下。本次會議審查通過的條文、條次、引述條文的部分、文字還有相關法、自用語、授權主席還有議事人員整理。"},{"start":29305.45,"end":29333.47,"text":"然後討論事項這個新住民權益保障法草案還有新住民基本法草案等期案以併案審查完略審查報告提報院會討論請問在場的委員我們要不要經過黨團協商必須要對不對好需經黨團協商保留的有有對一起需經黨團協商然後另外請行政院於6月20"},{"start":29335.588,"end":29354.959,"text":"本案於院會討論時,由本席高津昭為、蘇梅作補充說明。行政院在6月21日前將相關草案函請本院來審議。本席將於院會交付、禁付二讀後,並按協商。"},{"start":29355.981,"end":29375.122,"text":"好,請問一下大家有沒有意見?沒有意見,本次會議到此結束。我們現在散會,辛苦大家。謝謝,大家辛苦了。佛國立民的法案,大家都在這要注意喔。各朝也還有我們的民進黨都非常的關注,好不好?辛苦大家,謝謝。"},{"start":29378.326,"end":29379.768,"text":"好,辛苦你們,謝謝。"},{"start":29407.431,"end":29408.156,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"}]}},{"id":"15999","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15999","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db38aadac80e2e3f80d6a76734f739918219186e52af124432f7bb005c3c07a2cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-12T08:31:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:54:00+08:00","duration":15777,"影片長度":"04:22:57","委員發言時間":"08:31:03 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":955.364,"end":955.508,"text":"其中："},{"start":1578.414,"end":1578.516,"text":"全體委員會主任委員"},{"start":1628.359,"end":1632.036,"text":"全體委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":1754.878,"end":1760.663,"text":"我們現在主法定人數現在正式開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1773.24,"end":1795.303,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年6月5日星期三9時至13時40分地點紅樓10會議室出席委員、林代化委員等14人略席委員、洪孟楷委員等26人略席人員、經濟部部長、郭志輝及相關人員、主席、邱昭吉委員、易雲"},{"start":1796.937,"end":1822.153,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事務決定確定二 邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢經濟部部長郭志輝報告後委員林大化等27人提出質詢均由經濟部郭部長及鄉外人即席答覆決定一 登記方委員除在不在場外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二 委員李博義所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1822.933,"end":1829.139,"text":"三 書面執行案未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並赴日本會 散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1832.247,"end":1836.768,"text":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就:「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術"},{"start":1857.233,"end":1859.574,"text":"及擴展產業發展打造智慧未來進行報告並備諮詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1878.8,"end":1906.276,"text":"好 那我們今日議程排定是為掌握生成式的AI等關鍵技術．帶來的產業革命機會．台灣要如何的來深化AI生態系以及充實AI人才與產業AI化．促進台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能的升級．擴展產業的發展打造智慧未來"},{"start":1907.336,"end":1930.945,"text":"進行報告以及備諮詢。」我們在進行詢問之前首先要來介紹今天列席的部會首長我們首先歡迎國發會主委 劉主委我們國發會發展管理基金的代理執行秘書 汪執行秘書"},{"start":1933.999,"end":1960.08,"text":"我們經濟部 郭部長我們國科會副主委 林副主委接下來我們書發部的政事 林政事接下來還有我們教育部我們的葉政事歡迎"},{"start":1962.691,"end":1964.012,"text":"來接下來我們要請國發會劉靜欽主委來進行報告請"},{"start":1981.772,"end":1992.267,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位在場的記者大家好今天很榮幸代表國安會來到貴會、貴委員會針對促進AI產業發展進行報告與質詢"},{"start":1998.576,"end":2027.207,"text":"AI這個議題其實也不是今天才有的在之前就已經開始發生了但是這幾年的生成式AI帶動了一個浪潮這個浪潮看起來會讓整個世界有一個很大的進化跟進步因此其實政府在112年就已經看到了所以在112年我們訂定了台灣AI行動計畫2.0也成立了這個精創台灣方案這兩個方案都在進行中"},{"start":2028.027,"end":2051.401,"text":"那之後在我們總統的競選的政見裡面加上卓院長整合出來的希望工程也有創新經濟、智慧國家兩個重要的政策發展也就造成我們今天朝向創新經濟的發展尤其在信賴無產業裡面講得很清楚那兩個很重要的核心關鍵就是第一個是半導體第二個就是我們的AI的發展"},{"start":2053.482,"end":2068.29,"text":"這兩個發展很明顯會成為台灣在未來經濟成長最重要的兩支支柱與核心為了強化這個支柱與核心本會從整個生態系重新整理在市場、能力、人才、資本、法規這五個構面"},{"start":2070.411,"end":2096.261,"text":"進行強化希望讓台灣的產業能夠抓到這一次的脈絡的動機機會然後往前走那這個機會的市場的部分我們是用微笑曲線來做一個分析我們微笑曲線大概是一個弧形分成三段最底端的是製造也就是過去台灣非常強的一塊那目前我們在伺服器的製造甚至在一些主機板等等的應用我們已經到了"},{"start":2097.081,"end":2113.749,"text":"大概全球有90%的市佔率簡單的講這個世界沒有台灣就很難看到server很難看到AI server的產生這個關鍵的部位抓到之後我們往上游供應鏈走的部分從目前散熱的模組也好"},{"start":2114.369,"end":2131.33,"text":"到連接器﹐各種電子零組件﹐到半導體的生產﹐到設計﹐台灣也取得了關鍵位置再往前一走上去是Sensor跟Data Collect的部分是我們還要再加強的部分"},{"start":2131.71,"end":2150.604,"text":"所以在Research的部分從物理學、光學這些地方雷射等等我們會希望在這個地方再強化讓我們在前端的Sensor取得Data的部分再運作回來的話它是一個供應鏈更強化完整的部分另外還有一塊就是整個Server做完以後供應出去是應用面"},{"start":2151.464,"end":2180.318,"text":"這個應用面來自於解決方案從智慧的解決方案到智慧人員到智慧的醫療生活的應用、智慧生活的應用等等都是一個很大的市場這塊市場是台灣目前比較少著墨的那估計整個市場大概佔全球來講大概有2.3兆美元一年的市場那我們目前市佔率應該是在千分之一左右所以這一塊是我們會很強化發展的地方"},{"start":2180.958,"end":2196.876,"text":"這樣的話讓台灣在整個AI的這個價值鏈裡面都能夠有一定的發展機會那這個在執行的部分在AI運用的部分是我們會跟這個數碼部一起在努力往這條路走那另外在"},{"start":2197.856,"end":2210.406,"text":"國科會會負責在零件跟經濟部會在零件端跟研究端的發展然後經濟部會在製造端當然教育部跟勞動部都會在人力上面提供比較大的協助"},{"start":2212.367,"end":2229.112,"text":"整個市場看到之後依據市場的開發我們協助廠商之後其實我們要建構後面的幾個關鍵的生態系統那第一個比較大的關鍵系統是來自於人才我們可以看得到輝達過來就號稱他一次就要找一千人"},{"start":2229.992,"end":2243.701,"text":"那這裡面形成一個很巨大的壓力就是過去可能整個台灣的市場在考慮上面永遠不知道下一個廠商會要幾千人那這個是永遠在追逐那全世界目前都遇到人才荒都在努力解決這個方向"},{"start":2245.282,"end":2268.439,"text":"那這個方向我們現在朝幾個方向做從比較短期到中期長期都開始在進行那這個進行也是兩年前就開始在發展那目前我們會從人才會有Build and Buy就是從自己培育跟從外面獵財、攬財這兩個方向來做那自己培育我們目前是從政府、學校、社會三個構面在發展"},{"start":2270.04,"end":2297.621,"text":"那在攬財的部分呢我們現在正在盤點世界各國主要競爭國的他的人才吸引條件那我們必須創造比他們更好的吸引條件才有機會把這群人吸引過來、流過來那所以我們也正在規劃中那以政府的部分目前是做得比較多的我們政府跟學校兩個地方合計起來在今年2024年預計會有10萬9千7百位數位相關人才投入市場"},{"start":2298.542,"end":2326.112,"text":"投入市場。」那這裡面最大的一塊是來自教育部教育部大概會有8.3萬那除了有2萬多人來自於這個數位相關科系之外教育部也很積極地推動STEM就是讓非資訊科系非數位科系的學生可以透過學程的方式去培養自己這方面的能力那這個地方培養出來的人力現在也是非常多大概有一年可以有6萬2千人"},{"start":2329.069,"end":2336.737,"text":"同時,國發會也跟教育部學校合作,做了很多企業專班,培養人才發展。社會方面,從勞動部"},{"start":2345.805,"end":2359.58,"text":"這個國科會等單位也都有在做這方面人才的協助與發展那這樣的話目前來看的話在短期內還算是可以使用但是比較會大的落差是來自於尖端特殊"},{"start":2360.821,"end":2362.081,"text":"特殊領域需要的人才。」"},{"start":2383.886,"end":2404.591,"text":"企業的部分我們也會大幅的去協助企業來做大幅的培育那早年其實整個資訊行業每個領域外表看起來是叫AI往裡面一展下去它可能有數百個領域那數百個領域的人才我們就要協助企業去進行發展那另外對於勞動部也對於中小企業提供了相當的補助"},{"start":2406.212,"end":2421.644,"text":"這個補助方案也會讓中小企業可以比較輕鬆地去培育這樣的人才所以我們從輔佐大型的企業到中型、小型企業目前都有考慮到也在努力當中當然在一個全球的競爭上面我們還是希望奮力地往前走"},{"start":2422.364,"end":2448.619,"text":"那另外一部分就是我們也開始創造這個有利條件之外我們開始在持續鬆綁法規我們希望這個法規的鬆綁能讓更多的人留在台灣那更多的人願意到台灣來那我們把這些誘因整理完之後呢我們也對於這個整理完之後其實我們會還要進一步的跟企業用企業的方法來做什麼叫企業的方法呢就是我們從過去設立網站"},{"start":2451.641,"end":2459.1,"text":"然後放寬法規然後培養人才然後等待這些人才進來到我們到不同的國家去投放廣告"},{"start":2460.034,"end":2489.614,"text":"所以我們會開始進入精準廣告的投放到我們特定的美國或者是中歐一帶我們目標的市場開始去吸引這些人然後透過精準廣告的投放讓他們可以想要來台灣的人或是想要到海外發展的人可以找到台灣的訊息那透過我們網站的吸引來走進來所以我們會強化我們在Talent台灣這個Program跟網站上的發展那另外在資金面的部分"},{"start":2491.235,"end":2502.022,"text":"我們會在融資跟投資兩面同時下手。」那投資的部分我們目前跟這個出發部我們稍微有一個討論我們計劃曠業100億AI的創新專業投資那由出發部來執行做"},{"start":2509.326,"end":2522.162,"text":"做大幅的投資專注在AI領域的發展：同時我們也會強化國際基金在相關領域的發展讓這個資金的面向會拉得更大我們也同時希望找金管會來放寬法規"},{"start":2525.065,"end":2541.457,"text":"讓保險資金也可以進到這個領域創造更多的投資的量能另外我們也會強化在我們目前在整個被投資標的5的改善這個標的5的改善包括我們跟GaragePlus等等這些單位在合作"},{"start":2542.117,"end":2559.184,"text":"所以這次在黃仁勳在台大演講他在他的背板上打出了很多公司裡面有5家就是我們投資輔導的公司被在黃仁勳的那個演講裡面出來那我們裡面也有2家是我們合作的夥伴那我們共同在培養"},{"start":2559.904,"end":2576.122,"text":"那另外在融資的方面我們也會在這方面跟銀行協調希望給予更多的資金進到這個市場讓資金更充裕再投資更方便另外在研發上面的合作我們現在也積極的去建立一個Tech Hub"},{"start":2577.083,"end":2597.583,"text":"所謂Tech Hub就是把一個Hub把各種相關的科技從AI的發展領域到先進科技發展領域到創新創業領域我們集中在一個區那這個生態區包括也有住宿的部分去整合起來那其中AI的部分目前是我們協助速發部開始在規劃工建的部分那如果"},{"start":2599.11,"end":2628.479,"text":"我們將來就是很快的會去協助審核完成這個部分讓它盡快可以運作起來那這個運作起來的話就可以跟國外合作那目前我們也找了一些學校希望跟國外進行整個AI的合作因為在美國這個領域是比較新的所以譬如說我們跟台大目前大概在合作台大跟伊利諾那在德州這些地方的學校都有進行相關的合作我們希望去進行產學的合作一起帶動所以讓我們的研發可以更完整那同時呢"},{"start":2629.72,"end":2645.716,"text":"當然我想經濟部也會做相關的法規更進一步的鬆綁那這樣的話呢就讓我們的研發的量能可以拉得比較高一些那繼續往前邁進那同時我們在學校方面我們也投資了投資了資金跟企業合作那讓什麼讓老師"},{"start":2648.078,"end":2657.946,"text":"的待遇不再是受限於政府的規定：可以有更高的金額去吸引到比較有經驗的產業的業士進來然後透過實務跟學校兩邊的產學合作培養比較務實的人"},{"start":2663.73,"end":2678.333,"text":"另外在市場面我們除了去發展創新創業領域我們希望大力投資在AI的新創跟轉型跟創業這三個領域上面我們都會引入國發基金來協助之外我們也會透過我們投資的創新創業去協助百工百業的帶動"},{"start":2684.855,"end":2705.899,"text":"尤其是讓這些單位去協助傳產跟中小企業原因是傳產跟中小企業過去在人才戰爭上面他處於比較低的弱勢那我們引導我們的新創團隊或是創業比較成熟的或是一些企業的轉型團隊轉到這裡面來那透過資金的協助跟誘導讓他進來之後呢透過財務政策的誘導讓他進來之後呢就會讓這個產業比較容易有機會讓他的產品開始進入比較AI的世界"},{"start":2714.04,"end":2726.294,"text":"也可以把關鍵零組件改善比如說在工具機的關鍵零組件我們過去仰賴於日本跟德國那如果我們好好的發展的話可以取代下來那第二個把大量的AI導進這個產業裡面也會讓它的整個產品的競爭力會提升"},{"start":2730.058,"end":2752.723,"text":"那我們都會朝這幾個地方去發展那我們同時也積極地會在東京跟矽谷都設立我們的創新中心那這個創新中心的主要目的是每一屆台灣的創新創業團隊能夠走入全球也跟著試著也把美國、日本等地的創新團隊引進台灣進行一個交流合作"},{"start":2753.463,"end":2777.001,"text":"這些合作都在進行中我們的新放的基地也預計今年下半年會設置完成不論是在美國或是在矽谷或是在東京我們都會盡快地把它做起來這樣的話就會形成一個比較完整的生態系從市場面看得精準"},{"start":2778.502,"end":2796.012,"text":"從這個人才面大力的扶植跟培育那再從這個資金面我們提供足夠的資金與發展然後在研發面跟市場面我們都把它可以投資下去的話我想這個產業的發展就很快可以實現政府信賴產業跟創新經濟的發展也可以帶動這個產業的發展我的報告到此了 謝謝"},{"start":2802.742,"end":2808.83,"text":"好 謝謝我們國防會主委的報告那接下來我們請經濟部 郭部長請"},{"start":2836.963,"end":2858.575,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好陳孟貴委員的邀請就AI相關主題來進行報告那麼敬請各位委員先進不吝視教那麼首先跟各位報告就是AI人工智慧發展的趨勢剛才我想這個劉主委也說了很多"},{"start":2859.605,"end":2875.838,"text":"隨著OpenAI於2022年推出的CHOP GPT﹐AI技術進入一個新時代﹐預計將啟動新一波的AI應用大爆發﹐台灣具備半導體與資通訊的產業優勢﹐是支持AI發展的關鍵要素﹐"},{"start":2880.59,"end":2902.33,"text":"今年臺北國際電腦展Computex中全球AI科技大廠如輝達、超維、英特爾、高通、美超維以及國內聯發科等重要廠商的高層都出現足證台灣已經躍居為全球AI發展的關鍵核心"},{"start":2904.673,"end":2928.141,"text":"那麼我們要談這個培育國內所需的AI人才呢那麼在這個全球面臨AI應用成長的爆發期台灣必須要加速推動AI產業創新以創臥巨大商機並帶動企業全面數位轉型為此培育各行業AI人才刻不容返本人已經在貴委員會經濟部業務報告中宣誓"},{"start":2933.784,"end":2958.436,"text":"將在4年內培育20萬名AI人才將涵蓋大語言模型訓練與微調等人才加速百工百業的AI應用人才培育並推動AI人才認證以符合AI發展的趨勢期待透過跨部會合作達成共同目標滿足AI時代的人才需求"},{"start":2960.936,"end":2985.566,"text":"台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術是可以看到現在國際AI科技大廠陸續推出生成式AI工具但主要以一般知識的問答、英文資料為主對於產業專業知識如半導體製程、我國的金融法規乃至於繁體中文的運用"},{"start":2987.591,"end":3012.189,"text":"就無法完全滿足使用者的需求另外,國際大廠的AI服務都需要使用者把資料上傳到雲端對企業會有機密資料外洩的風險本部將建立專屬的生成式AI核心技術運用台灣在製造和服務產業豐富的知識和資料"},{"start":3014.636,"end":3037.53,"text":"打造出台灣產業專屬模型讓AI服務可以在企業內部使用以提升資安等級而且懂得企業想要知道的特定知識協助業者實現產業AI化提升產業競爭力引進國際大廠來台設立研發中心"},{"start":3042.369,"end":3060.527,"text":"本部積極引進國際領先企業來臺設立研發中心這不僅能帶來最先進的技術也能讓台灣的廠商進入全球創新價值鏈同時吸引頂尖人才來臺促進台灣人才的培訓與升級"},{"start":3062.817,"end":3080.148,"text":"這些國際人才來此學習台灣AI發展的經驗回國以後能夠貢獻母國促進雙方科技研發的雙贏攜手共創商機今年本部把握盛大的臺北國際電腦展的機會與多家國際大廠深入洽談合作"},{"start":3085.967,"end":3112.066,"text":"未來將會陸續引進更多外資企業進駐台灣相關合作內容將在適當的時間向各位委員報告輔導百工百業導入AI本部積極整合產業需求與各方資源開通法人與工協會支付業者合作"},{"start":3113.939,"end":3138.962,"text":"推動AI技術在各行各業的普及提升產業競爭力與數位轉型具體措施包括一、擴散生成式AI核心技術與領域專屬模型提供跨部會與GAI共通平台上的應用協助中小企業數位轉型二、透過應用"},{"start":3141.743,"end":3153.771,"text":"驗證以及大大小方式擴散普及﹐輔導百工百業運用生成式AI﹐建立產業導入AI資運﹐透過專家顧問輔導企業導入成熟AI工具﹐促進"},{"start":3161.333,"end":3187.652,"text":"製造業AI普及加速將運用產創條例十之一創新租稅優惠修正案提高產業對AI應用的投資預計在117年製造業AI應用普及率從目前的12.3%提升到50%最後經濟部最重要的任務就是活絡台灣經濟與產業發展"},{"start":3190.302,"end":3219.565,"text":"本部將致力於推動人工智慧在台灣產業化且持續發展建立具備AI算力的超級電腦此外也將培養產業所需人才讓人工智慧在台灣有更多創新的面貌更重要的是要推動AI在百工百業的運用強化競爭力讓台灣成為世界的支柱讓台灣成為人工智慧島"},{"start":3220.908,"end":3241.189,"text":"期盼各位委員對於本部施政指正視教本會期送請大院審議的相關議案亦懇請委員鼎力資助最後敬祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3246.104,"end":3257.717,"text":"好 謝謝郭部長的報告那我們先來處理議事錄現在已足法定人數三位請問剛剛所宣讀的議事錄有沒有意見好 那我們議事錄確認那現在呢"},{"start":3262.624,"end":3280.695,"text":"這個我們還有國科會以及數發部還有教育部的書面報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報謝謝那現在我們要進行詢答在委員詢答前主席台依照慣例做以下幾項的宣告"},{"start":3281.255,"end":3301.926,"text":"每位委員發言的時間本會委員6分鐘加必要時加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記那我要拜託我們委員時間掌控一下因為今天登記的委員非常的熱情謝謝那我們現在請登記第一位的林黛樺委員請做發言有請國發會主委我們請國發會主委"},{"start":3314.039,"end":3335.985,"text":"主委我就先看你的簡報你第一頁當中去講到說您報告有台灣AI行動2.0跟精創台灣方案這未來的9年那我要提醒你的你的精創台灣方案當中補助都在優勢產業也就是在最基層的硬體的部分它在終端的相關的運算中心包括相關的運用領域是沒有的"},{"start":3336.385,"end":3354.966,"text":"所以我提醒你這是在你竟然是今年開始你也放在你的這個簡報當中表示你是很重視的那包括你的台灣AI行動2.0這當中的執行計畫但既然你先來我要拜託你等一下我質詢的時候也會講你們的計畫方案也講得很好包括今年你們也編列119億"},{"start":3357.749,"end":3372.202,"text":"那我要拜託你要重新的來檢視它是不是真的符合AI的運作再來你的人才培訓當中你花了這個兩大部分一個是鼓勵資訊人才包括這個協助企業人才的佈局"},{"start":3373.283,"end":3391.719,"text":"我就根據你的企業人才布局有一點我不知道你們能克服光是你說要3、4、5到國際的點財、列財要參照新加坡、日本、韓國要盤點我們的居住租稅等光是台灣個人所得最高克40%"},{"start":3393.701,"end":3401.868,"text":"然後你要獵財來你知道新加坡獵財來之後他們在60天以下來這邊的優秀人60天以下免稅60天到182天是課15%的個人所得稅如果你多於180天以上"},{"start":3411.417,"end":3414.802,"text":"6個月以上是淨所得課22%總收入課15%公司董事一律課22%我不知道您能不能去說服財政部光是你的列財你就列了三"},{"start":3430.242,"end":3434.704,"text":"2、3、4、5一個列才當中的3、4、5多大的拼譜5項有3項是講到這個東西好本席提點你那再來本席針對今天講到AI那我也認為國發會當則不讓我這邊針對幾個面向跟你一起討論包括台灣人工智慧的全球排名第二個產業結構第三個針對產業能做什麼以及垂直領域的專家才是成功成敗的關鍵"},{"start":3455.355,"end":3481.88,"text":"當然 跨部會的協作 國發會是當然當則不讓當然本席最後有具體的要求那在我覺得爬出了是一個在英國有這樣的一個雜誌這個Total is Media它針對全球AI的排名我們全球整體AI的指數我們排名26新加坡排名3韓國排名6那在政府投入的部分上面有兩張表"},{"start":3483.62,"end":3488.884,"text":"總排名的部分是左邊這張表那右邊有講到左邊這邊也講到政府的投入我們在2022年政府的投入是全球42名2023年我們是全球33名好再看右邊那張圖他所講的是我們在研究的部分我們全球排名36發展51規模38所以我要講的你會覺得落差很大"},{"start":3506.394,"end":3526.772,"text":"哇我們的這個所以我們的晶圓代工我們的伺服器全球排行數一數二再加上這個AI教父教母來了現在離台之後這麼的風光其實它證明了一件事情我們的基礎產業是好的但是你看我們全球AI的應用包括政府的投入是這麼的低好"},{"start":3528.873,"end":3532.835,"text":"所以本席認為在你們優勢產業當中已經投入這麼多資源了重點你們也講到AI應用在各行各業才是AI創造價值的核心關鍵好本席用這一張圖"},{"start":3544.958,"end":3564.032,"text":"這個你們現在有基礎層、中間層、應用層你們現在所有的資源都在右下方基礎層我們從最基層AI晶片運算晶圓的代工伺服器中間的雲端運算中心是我們現在各縣市都在爭取的在AI核心技術當中從基層、中層到最後的應用軟體的部分"},{"start":3565.029,"end":3580.943,"text":"好這才是應用好那另外還AI應用的價值鏈從下面的我們的預先訓練微調啦對於這個我們的晶片當中的所有的這個資料標注等啊以及我們現在你們也花很大規模的在生成式的AI模型但"},{"start":3581.758,"end":3602.267,"text":"我今天要有AI價值創造的核心關鍵就是在左上角的各行各業的應用所以你看你的資源配置你是放在最右下端的在晶片代工跟伺服器頂多現在是這個國際的投資在雲端資訊中心但是我們要做的是左上角這件事情那就要盤點你的預算"},{"start":3604.648,"end":3618.734,"text":"你的執行的科目有沒有符合這個東西有沒有符合呢好那個人工產業可以做什麼本席特別針對幾個領域在醫療、保健、金融服務、製造業、零售、電子、教育、農業在醫療的部分我有幾個案例速發部今天速發部的副署長副署長有來我之前就有一個陳情案那我就練給我就呢陳述給大家聽他是被駁回了來跟我哭訴說我們的速發部根本就不懂AI"},{"start":3634.8,"end":3648.787,"text":"這是眼科眼體鏡進行視網膜神經及血管攝影結合了失智症的患者有發生原血管跟神經萎縮病的近症進行匹配也就是我單純的眼科醫生我只會做眼體鏡的視網膜的神經可是這個資料"},{"start":3651.889,"end":3657.914,"text":"其實在我們教學醫院榮總長跟已經有研究在醫院內有研究他其實這樣的數據分區是可以跟我私自站可以匹配在一塊這都有教學醫院的一個研究他希望來跟政府爭取經費說我能擴大到醫院外的人民來蒐集更大的這樣的一個數據來做AI的匹配結果被你們打回來後來我瞭解了結果原來你們審查委員是有眼科經由眼科專業根本沒有AI產業"},{"start":3680.333,"end":3693.625,"text":"也沒有這個老年失智的跨領域你知道這個早期預防可以減少大量的這個健保支出又可以造福多少個家庭光是這個失智症的文明病我光是做一個眼睛的檢查我就可以去跟早期發現我的這個文明病失智症他可以減緩可以提早預防減緩他的發病"},{"start":3702.833,"end":3717.959,"text":"好包括金融我們說詐騙今天我們都是政府叫被動啊我發現這個是不是我打電話到打詐中心啊我被動的接受人民的陳情啊但是如果我有AI導入的話我整個這個欺詐的檢測其實他只要導入的時候我的人民他不需要打了"},{"start":3723.922,"end":3753.124,"text":"只要他要再做他的行為的時候就已經政府的這個AI的模型已經套路了告訴你欸這個就是這就是告訴你喔政府告訴你你這是詐騙喔甚至本席一直主張的我們的農業智慧決策連農業決策能夠要都要智慧的精準農業講坦白的就是農業優生學我們的農業預測等好這個就是等本席就是提供給你在現在符合民意當中你AI的應用面包括你的預算為什麼你要"},{"start":3753.604,"end":3778.267,"text":"重新的檢視好 我們這個人工智慧啊它也不是萬能有優點缺點優點就是它能短時間內處理大量的數據提高工作效能 節省時間成本在作業精準度上是堪稱完美經過專家系統的定義過的作業可以全天候24小時準確的執行我的指定作業缺點是什麼AI它只是一個工具這句話是重點"},{"start":3779.048,"end":3797.914,"text":"AI只是個工具所以它缺乏創造力它的技術還沒有辦法具備人類的創造力跟想像力無法創造新的東西所以儘管AI可以通過大量的數據訓練來提升自身的智能水平但是還是需要相關專家明確的定義才行好 這句話的結果也就是"},{"start":3798.434,"end":3823.37,"text":"台灣人工智慧產業當中你們講到人才專家很可惜你們就講到法人及學研當中包括說你們要到外面獵財我也沒意見但是你光是突破那個租稅的部分就請你好好的跟財政部研究了好我在這邊具體主張你這個一定要有各行各業業界的實務專家導入你的專家人才庫這是本席的重點"},{"start":3824.45,"end":3846.688,"text":"主委就在你在籌組各部會今天來了好多各部會你們的專家一定要各產業的實務專家才有可能成為專家好那在這邊呢我這個也是上週我針對經濟部質詢的已經明確杜絕我們紅色供應鏈下我又要在怎麼的發展各製造業的AI升級的輔導杜絕紅色供應鏈"},{"start":3849.49,"end":3870.777,"text":"這也提醒給我們的這個主委跨部會的協作當國發會就當則不讓了本席我就以這個案例國家農業治理的一個智慧化我就以我的選區裡面的這個石斑魚我會舉這個案例是因為中國拒絕我石斑魚進口到中國的時候所以我就替我自己的產業"},{"start":3871.937,"end":3877.462,"text":"找了速發部他就是呢這個速發部協助下確實補助這個經費做了AI的相關的定序數據的收集所以這是這個速發部支持但是這個計畫是從哪裡來呢誰發想呢是我教育部是我一個科技大學的一個學者他的一個團隊所以他把他技術來找我的這個農民這是農業部應該輔導的"},{"start":3900,"end":3913.281,"text":"那但是呢跟經濟部有什麼關係因為呢我們不能輸到中國啦我們就走南向所以他就輸到東南亞那所以呢這又跨了農業部跨了書發部跟經濟部跟教育部所以你今天AI要完成當然是要跨部會"},{"start":3915.904,"end":3930.129,"text":"我的具體建議四點第一個盤點現行狀態第二個盤點各單位使用人工智慧的可行性第三個建立專家人才系統第四個加速普惠百工百業我舉兩張圖怎麼叫盤點現行的狀態這一張圖我辦公室這樣盤整出來了光是你們賓的這個AI2.0你在簡報上講的119億這個當中你就要去盤點"},{"start":3944.733,"end":3964.06,"text":"好 盤點什麼呢到底目前我有關智慧化應用的經費跟計畫狀況是否都適合導入人工智慧智慧化的應用並不代表所有的人工智慧但是你要專門在AI的這個工具上的應用你要在你智慧編了119億的這個2.0行動的2.0當中台灣AI行動2.0當中你就要去盤點了"},{"start":3970.663,"end":3989.442,"text":"好那第二個盤點各單位就針對政府部門你自己就要以身作則哪些是中央單位可以建立封閉式跟開放式的人工智慧剛才譬如說開放式就打炸就好了我的警政署你們可以協助警政署在開放他們的這個開放式的哪些是一個詐騙的相關的事先預測"},{"start":3992.945,"end":4001.807,"text":"這人民超有感的我不用再被動打電話給警察去不用打電話到打詐中心的他任何的行為我直接在金融系統當中他要會的時候我就告訴他了他或者他樣態的一個告知啊第三建立專栽人才庫本席在這邊重點是各產業領域涵蓋各產業的業界人才這我舉一個例子比如說我在補習班我這邊工作22年了"},{"start":4017.031,"end":4022.673,"text":"好 那你說要AI啊一定是這個補習班內的長期的資深員工譬如說我有一個資訊部門由我在這個補習班內的資深的資訊部門的人來受你的訓練啊而不是這樣才有可能成為專家如果你從外部他怎麼可能"},{"start":4034.918,"end":4049.046,"text":"他怎麼可能會是一個對補習班瞭解或者是對我這個螺絲工具區瞭解的人他來設計他的AI呢不可能吶包括我的高雄市當中的所有金屬扣件包括我們的離岸風電等等相關所有中小企業都遍佈整個我高雄市那你怎麼當然是從他們裡面的資訊部門去訓練所以你的國內人才的訓練是要從這邊來"},{"start":4064.474,"end":4080.266,"text":"好那當然我們普惠百工百業的部分與公共建設這個是你要公建的角度這是因為一個公建就是四年計畫所以針對國內產業中小企業的組成特性提供主題式的計畫補助人工智慧導入並採審查重觀審查和重演為什麼"},{"start":4083.769,"end":4091.435,"text":"因為中小企業有910萬的從業人口半導體29萬的人口如果你再繼續補助優勢產業半導體就29萬有感中小企業913萬人無感重點就在這邊好 您簡單回應一下"},{"start":4100.1,"end":4101.721,"text":"接下來我們請陳廷飛委員請做詢談"},{"start":4134.327,"end":4136.514,"text":"謝謝主席 教委我們請主委我們再請國發委主委"},{"start":4145.27,"end":4173.269,"text":"委員長主委我想我第一次也在這個地方我跟你談的就是AI的研發中心也就是黃仁勳執行長他一直希望就是說在台南在高雄有一個AI研發中心所以我們也希望說我們的國發會要怎麼樣去掌握這樣的訊息然後我們要怎麼去push然後把這樣的一個所謂AI的研發中心"},{"start":4176.431,"end":4202.484,"text":"我們也希望現在擴大變成生態園區這是我們現在政府所非常重要的一個指標叫生態園區可是這個生態園區我相信在台南的部分我們有很多包括綠能科技產業園區也就是在沙崙然後再加上我們的南科"},{"start":4203.544,"end":4229.618,"text":"那再加上我們目前所有的一些電一些水利的部分在整個的條件當中我們認為在台南是非常適當的那可是我們的AI生態園區到底我們現在我們的目標在哪裡重點在哪裡預算在哪裡速發部一下子說要實體一下子說可以虛擬"},{"start":4230.919,"end":4245.948,"text":"然後呢國科會說他們都可以配合因為他們本來在南科園區就有這樣的一個所謂相關AI的產業他們沒有問題那國發會呢你們的態度是如何你們的態度是如何"},{"start":4249.312,"end":4277.682,"text":"我們的態度現在是積極的跟數發部跟國科會我們一起在合作那台南的部分的確像委員講的我想委員我很佩服您一直在爭取台南然後也一直在把台南的優勢不斷的讓我們清楚所以我們現在感受的也很深那我們會去在最後評估我們現在在評估階段我們一定不會忘記委員特別一直跟我們銷售的台南的好處我們會認真的來考慮這一點"},{"start":4278.513,"end":4301.712,"text":"因為現在整個護國神山的所有它的機能還有它所有的零星產業基本上都落腳在台南而且我們有我們的腹地所以如果在這樣的一個前提之下我覺得我們的態度要更確認說到底AI的生態園區它是要實體還是虛擬"},{"start":4304.946,"end":4331.565,"text":"實體跟虛擬不一樣我們現在是這樣子實體跟虛擬都會同時存在的原因是在AI的世界裡面它必須串聯全世界所以我們除了會建立實體的中心之外我們也會我想數位發展部也在積極的建立一個國際的脈絡的聯網包括讓沒辦法進入園區的一些單位也都可以參與進來變成一個整合性的一個虛實整合的一個AI生態園區"},{"start":4332.446,"end":4343.355,"text":"那土地重要嗎?土地重要就是有私底的地方可以做更好的討論那所以這兩者會同時並行土地重要經費呢?那經費來源呢?"},{"start":4348.176,"end":4365.369,"text":"經費來源是第一個國發基金我們現在正在作業中如果得到核准的話我們會有100億投到這個領域來所以我們現在預估在AI生態園區在實體的部分我們預計要投入的是國發基金100億的預算"},{"start":4366.97,"end":4385.744,"text":"而且100億主要是在投資創新創業就是進駐廠商還有在虛擬進駐廠商的投資那硬體的部分其實現在因為公建預算正在審核當中那我們也請各單位盡快的提出來進入我們的審核程序"},{"start":4386.334,"end":4408.972,"text":"所以主委你的意思是說國發基金這100億我們是希望創新創業進入到這樣的一個實體的生態園區然後在其他各部會的我們還會再去另外編列相關的預算然後進入到這個AI的方向是不是所以不只100億"},{"start":4409.873,"end":4435.379,"text":"不只,它這個工件預算是另計那現在在等實體,我們是審核單位所以我們有幾個單位在規劃上面從國科會跟數發部他們會送上這樣的一個工件計畫那在於實體的所以國科會是負責實體然後數發部是負責虛擬,是這樣意思嗎?沒有,他們都有,都會有實體的運作"},{"start":4436.539,"end":4447.887,"text":"都有實體的運作那你要了解速發部的速發部最近他所講的並不是如此他所講的是他要把實體變虛擬也許是不是可以讓速發部次長來說明"},{"start":4454.997,"end":4467.982,"text":"到底你們現在的態度是什麼如果以主委所說的我們是實體然後跟虛擬同步並進可是你們最近在媒體當中所講的是被誤解說實體要變虛擬你們負責的是虛擬"},{"start":4472.364,"end":4478.59,"text":"是跟委員報告因為在政府的分工上面國發會這邊會負責包含台灣的硬體產業跟軟體產業而我們數發部負責的是軟體產業然後軟體產業一個特性所以你們數發部負責的就是在虛擬的部分嗎是實體用嗎"},{"start":4490.881,"end":4510.854,"text":"實體的部分因為我們現在重點是在於生態而不在於園區那軟體產業的特性是第一個就是上下游產業之間並沒有零組件的運輸的需求所以上下游的這些產業並不需要在同一個地方再來就是說在軟體產業現在遠距上班也都是一件常見的現象所以我們這個"},{"start":4511.775,"end":4530.929,"text":"所以市長你的意思就是說是你們數發部負責就是虛擬的部分是所以沒有實體的部分是對不對好那主委所以就有一點不一樣囉所以我們現在看到的確實是如此嘛數發部從實體變虛擬好那現在實體聚落的部分實體生態園區到底是誰在負責國科會嗎國科會也講的有一點保守欸他說我們的"},{"start":4542.939,"end":4563.139,"text":"這個產業園區我們都可以配合他們是就他們目前目前的狀態那我們如果依照主委所講的我們是要做到我們是要做到我們除了國發基金以外我們還有公建計劃這是沒工的所以我們的方向到底怎麼拿捏來 國科會"},{"start":4568.692,"end":4570.076,"text":"實體的部分你們負責的嗎?跟委員報告基本上我們還是會以沙輪"},{"start":4576.109,"end":4577.91,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4600.522,"end":4615.21,"text":"南部擴散目前都還在規劃中因為沙崙它有中央研究院南部院區然後又有你們國科會相關的一些所謂研發的地點"},{"start":4616.431,"end":4643.019,"text":"所以我們看到的是綠能科技產業園區在沙崙我們把它這一塊土地放在這裡是很可惜的還有成大我們的相關還有交通大學這些研發的能量都在裡面但是並沒有發揮啊所以我為什麼說要爭取AI的生態園區在台南當然就是在我們的沙崙這個區塊嘛從過去到現在我們看到的是能量沒有發揮嘛"},{"start":4644.139,"end":4660.757,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話我們再加上有些隱形產業我們必須是實體跟虛擬要並進嘛是不是一個負責實體一個負責虛擬嘛這樣才對嘛然後國發會是know-how嘛他做串聯嘛"},{"start":4661.778,"end":4677.661,"text":"是不是這樣子所以我們期待的AI生態園區除了有像黃仁勳執行長所說的他必須是AI的研發中心他可以併進來嘛對不對他可以把1加1大於2嘛"},{"start":4678.562,"end":4696.613,"text":"如果我們有這樣的一個生態園區他在投注他們的一些原本預期的計劃跟目標對我們來講是加分了所以我覺得說AI生態園區在整個地理位置經費當中最適合的就是台南就在沙崙"},{"start":4697.874,"end":4715.064,"text":"這非常的清楚主委謝謝委員我會負責來整合兩個部會的結果然後再跟你們報告再拜託那還有一個部分您的誠意我們是一直感受很深對因為我覺得我們臺南現缺的就是一個整合"},{"start":4716.144,"end":4738.898,"text":"如果把它整合起來我們的能量是無限大我們有那個條件但是缺了一個整合那我相信今天有一點我覺得還是要澄清清楚我們請這個經濟部長就是說外媒說台灣缺電會衝擊全球的產業基本上我覺得今天起碼台灣的能量"},{"start":4739.838,"end":4762.172,"text":"我們的經濟能量、企業能量是被外媒所看到的這個對我們來講是好的可是因為被看到大家會擔心我們是不是會有缺電的問題部長我們應該準備好了尤其我們現在投注AIAI的用電非常的大那這個部分呢我們準備好了沒報告委員準備好了"},{"start":4762.512,"end":4789.489,"text":"準備好了所以我們不會像外媒所講的會因為有這個缺電而影響到我們整個全球產業因為大家已經把台灣變成是一個全球產業包括半導體的一個指標囉這對我們來講其實是一個非常棒的可是他們擔心我們要把他擔心把他斷絕台灣電的部分沒有問題"},{"start":4790.47,"end":4812.448,"text":"是不是這樣?是的,缺電影響全球是事實但是我們沒有缺電我們沒有缺電,我們準備好了對不對?我們在準備,應該是好的好,我想AI產業如果進到我們在整個整合的體系當中電、水,它永遠都是最重要再麻煩部長,謝謝好,謝謝接下來我們請邱毅文委員請做詢答"},{"start":4834.554,"end":4857.951,"text":"謝謝昭緯我現在是不是請一下經濟部跟教育部好了好 郭部長跟教育部正次好 這個來 部長好 郭部長這個我想從您上個禮拜來做業務報告裡頭您有談到"},{"start":4861.166,"end":4874.523,"text":"4年之內要培育20萬個AI人才所以台灣大概是全世界少數搭上這個第一波的AI浪潮的國家但我們其實看得到"},{"start":4875.785,"end":4897.819,"text":"就實際面來說台灣在所謂的半導體的先進製程在AI伺服器的這個製造其實我們是有優勢但是在AI相關的IC設計或生成式AI應用服務的這些人才上面其實台灣的優勢是不大的您同意我的看法嗎同意"},{"start":4899.912,"end":4920.644,"text":"如果是這樣我們今天要來談這個未來搭上這一波AI浪潮之後首先要談的是要培育20萬名AI人才請問一下部長這20萬名AI人才是全部是自己培育嗎還是你有包括一部分是從國外攬才進來的"},{"start":4922.535,"end":4946.789,"text":"我們大概在這個LM的部分必須要從國外攬產所以我有請來台灣投資的這些比較大的國外廠商我都告訴他們你最少要帶一半的人才進來所以像這個輝達它要有1000位工程師所以我們就強烈的要求它要有帶500位工程師進來可是輝達現在大概只能帶10%的人進來"},{"start":4949.672,"end":4958.912,"text":"那個是過去我後來有跟他們在溝通如果未來是這樣那經濟部就不是培育20萬名AI人才"},{"start":4960.789,"end":4982.94,"text":"應該是培育加攬財對不對因為我為什麼會請教育部上來是今天很可惜沒有辦法聽到教育部的這個報告但是我看了一下教育部的書面你們所有的AI教育這一些數位的教育通常都是從高等教育才開始做起包括你的在職專班包括你的碩博士班等等"},{"start":4983.92,"end":5003.3,"text":"比如說你110年開始透過國家重點領域產學合作培育人才創新條例要招攬972名碩士博士生就我看了你們這個所謂的招攬名額要達到20萬名四年內根本做不到那請問教育部有什麼方式嗎"},{"start":5005.575,"end":5020.514,"text":"我看到韓國韓國他們現在是要從國民教育裡頭去推廣AI數位教育2025年開始韓國就會在中小學導入AI數位教科書那請問台灣呢"},{"start":5022.536,"end":5046.158,"text":"市長跟委員報告我想我們在AI人才培育這一塊我們過去一個非常重要的就是我們透過國家重點領域產學合作及人才培育創新條例我們有重點科技學院這重點科技學院十三家裡面有其中五家是跟人工智慧有關的我們每年在這裡面我們大概有"},{"start":5046.778,"end":5059.006,"text":"培養大概972位教授博士對嘛你一年才培養900多名嘛那要達到部長講的20萬名那個差距是很大的還沒講嗎還沒講剛才講是說博士那我們大學部這一邊的話因為我們有這個每年我們這個有這個大專院校"},{"start":5067.552,"end":5069.794,"text":"智慧科技及資訊安全碩士人才計畫"},{"start":5098.013,"end":5118.631,"text":"跟委員報告我們在這個教育部現在在研擬這個數位教學指引這個預計在10月會出來那這個指引其實蠻全面包括說我們會告訴校長如果像一些跟不管跟數位跟AI的導入要怎麼做然後老師還有家長10月會出來數位教學指引那預計什麼時候會開始實施其實它出來以後"},{"start":5121.129,"end":5148.354,"text":"下個學期就開始了下個學期就會開始實施所以這個是一個非常重大的教育的改變我覺得教育部應該是要好好的規劃然後要好好的宣導我們有這個所謂的生生用平板的這樣的一個很好的政策所以你們在推廣所謂的AI數位教科書的這個課綱其實對他們來講應該是要更快上手所以我期待如果是有一個這麼好的政策的話教育部應該是要好好的"},{"start":5149.174,"end":5149.194,"text":"來作規劃"},{"start":5165.53,"end":5190.12,"text":"我們自己中央廚房設計出這樣的課線上課程再搭配各個高中的種子學老師那來推這個也是我們未來會努力的目標我覺得就是說創造台灣的整體AI環境不會是只有國發會也不會是只有經濟部我覺得教育部我們在整個的教育體系裡頭共同去努力創造這個是很重要的一件事來那個教育部次長那您請回"},{"start":5191.4,"end":5194.766,"text":"那那個郭部長你也可以請回我請一下國發會請問一下國發會"},{"start":5203.218,"end":5230.694,"text":"來 劉主委您剛剛在那個報告的時候其實你有特別談到未來導入AI包括我們的流財、纜財等等你要用企業的方法所以剛剛其實也有委員問到我們的流財、纜財政策裡頭其實對於您在海外纜財的這一些誘因技術人員的誘因其實是不太夠的"},{"start":5231.794,"end":5248.671,"text":"包括稅責包括他們的居留等等您覺得正在國家發展的角度上面台灣有沒有必要檢討我們現行的所謂的移民政策如何讓您這些企業方法的這些攬財的條件"},{"start":5251.373,"end":5279.025,"text":"讓它更人性化或者是說讓它更具備誘因比如說剛剛講的人才來到這裡之後他的課稅問題他的居留問題子女的教育問題這個過去我們在攬財專案的法規討論上面其實都討論了很多但是對於這些海外的人不管他是華人也好不管是台裔也好或者是他是外國籍的人也好他要到台灣來"},{"start":5280.646,"end":5297.274,"text":"右鷹其實不太夠就是跟台灣的整個移民政策是有相關的就國發會的立場您覺得台灣的移民政策是不是需要檢討或者是在我們要攬AI人才的這個區塊上面我們是不是應該要有一些更大幅的開放"},{"start":5298.331,"end":5321.242,"text":"是的我們目前看起來是需要檢討才會具備國際的競爭力要更加的開放也才有機會去吸引人才好那這樣子國發會有沒有就這個部分跟其他的各部會比如說移民署、內政部或者是說你們有沒有做一個總體的規劃總體檢你們先要提AI的基本法經濟部要培育"},{"start":5322.603,"end":5332.595,"text":"20萬的AI人才要從國外攬財進來你說輝達進來投資他必須帶一半以上的人是從海外進來的那海外進來的這一些人要怎麼樣留在台灣"},{"start":5334.932,"end":5360.783,"text":"他要符合台灣的什麼樣的法令你要怎麼樣把這些人讓他有足夠的誘因留在這這個其實是都需要你們有一個跨部會的檢討我其實不太喜歡你們每次都講說什麼東西就會變成第二座護國神山現在你們已經有把AI捧得很高又說AI是第二座護國神山你真的要當護國神山的時候其實你是必須要各部會"},{"start":5362.103,"end":5380.055,"text":"所有相關的法令配套都必須要完整人才的獲得這個劣材都其實都是需要一個完整的配套但我現在看不出來你們所謂完整的配套上面比如說AI生態園區到底它是實體還是虛擬"},{"start":5382.657,"end":5408.573,"text":"你們都講不清楚啦國發會跟事務發布的態度意見根本就完全講不清楚啊然後包括你們跟經濟部的配合包括跟教育部的配合甚至跟財務財政部的配合這個其實是需要花很長的時間去討論而不是你自己今天一個國發會隨便就丟一個東西出來就我不知道"},{"start":5409.741,"end":5435.088,"text":"你們在行政院裡面到底有沒有就這一塊去做過討論我們現在就初步的意見是有溝通過但是細部的部分我們其實已經在整理我們現在整理了六個國家的優缺點因為我們要定位我們的競爭定位在哪裡那也跟委員報告不只是剛才講的稅包括這些人進來他的小孩的教育等等其實我們都會整體規劃以後然後去溝通各部會"},{"start":5435.984,"end":5457.855,"text":"好 這個主委我覺得這個動作可能要快啦這個如果說你們要把AI變成第二座護國神山的話相關的所有的法令配套各部會的配合各部會的推動遇到有致愛難行的地方我覺得大家都應該要趕快把這個問題都丟出來然後來集思廣益趕快來解決你才有辦法來"},{"start":5459.036,"end":5477.543,"text":"很快速的把台灣變成是一個AI島那甚至說你現在要做的這些AI的產業不只是中小企業產業要有AI化我們的醫療、農業是不是都能夠運用這樣的一個AI技術把它全面的推廣出去那你講到農業講到醫療"},{"start":5479.824,"end":5496.948,"text":"你要牽扯到的又會到農業部、衛福部所以其實它整個就是一個大行政院、大政府的架構去推動這個所謂的AI產業這個其實千頭萬緒但是我們期待跟你們一起努力好不好好 謝謝委員接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢答"},{"start":5511.863,"end":5513.207,"text":"謝謝召委 請郭部長我們請郭部長"},{"start":5520.933,"end":5541.591,"text":"部長好委員好部長在近期來輝達的旋風席捲全台那尤其是輝達的執行長黃仁勳他也特別表示說台灣AI跟我們的半導體產業是非常重要的國家未來會在台灣會設立第二的研發中心跟總部這可見得台灣"},{"start":5542.572,"end":5563.881,"text":"在全球的科技產業鏈通通會來台灣來投資但是黃仁勳臨走的時候特別擔憂也警示我們說臺灣電力整個配電的要充足產業才能來投資才不會影響到全球的發展整個AI的發展可是早上我們看到一個新聞就是美國智庫"},{"start":5564.901,"end":5592.184,"text":"美國智庫說臺灣的電力短缺部長早上的報告裡面也說臺灣的電力是不會缺電的那這樣子的話那是表示美國智庫在造謠那你要不要抗議報告委員我想美國智庫他只是他的那個新聞的這個說明他是說如果臺灣電力短缺會造成世界經濟的影響並沒有說臺灣這個電力他指明是臺灣電力短缺喔"},{"start":5594.145,"end":5608.695,"text":"他只是假設性的假設性的那所以你對於我們台灣電力是有信心我們不缺電是的那那跳電停電都是動物惹的禍目前來講的話這個妥善率其實是有一些不足"},{"start":5609.349,"end":5628.257,"text":"因為AI產業的話你要拿到全球的訂單必須要是綠電那你2026年的話要達到20%的再生能源的綠電2030年要達到30%你一直說有信心除了用光電除了還有我們的離岸風電外你還有什麼方式可以達成你的信心呢"},{"start":5628.917,"end":5646.883,"text":"我們現在朝著這兩個方面在努力跟委員報告說現在我們有一些新的科技進來包括地熱、包括氫能這些都是我們在考慮的部分是,好,部長本席會這麼講的原因就是因為我們再生能源的話離岸風電我們目前採取示範獎勵跟我們的"},{"start":5651.084,"end":5657.929,"text":"展覽廠子及區塊開發已經進入第三階段第二期選廠商在6月底前都要把這個廠商給選出來那能不能完成為什麼這樣子問因為你第一期的區塊開發就已經延期了都已經delay了在2026年跟2027年你的併電"},{"start":5678.484,"end":5690.52,"text":"並往發電你要做到那現在你連選商都還沒有完成的話那會不會等第二期也會無限的延期下去就不到你的這個離岸風電不能完成了"},{"start":5691.645,"end":5707.915,"text":"在之前會有點延遲主要是因為這個世界上面的環境的影響那這個歐洲它也一直在朝這個風力在這邊發電所以它有一些這個船的問題沒有辦法來到我們這個"},{"start":5709.777,"end":5734.136,"text":"因為你第一期延期成本就提高了第二期的話你如果再延期的話成本又會提高你要怎麼提升這樣產業能夠繼續的來台灣開發你的電力是要非常非常的充足他們才能夠成本穩定才會有競爭力 是不是是 讓這個廠商有競爭力我們會把這個電價的部分做充分的考量"},{"start":5735.336,"end":5736.877,"text":"因為你規劃說2030年我們整個離岸風電它的這整個總發電量要達到13.1GW能不能完成"},{"start":5749.127,"end":5777.745,"text":"我想以目前的這個進度我會督促我們的這個團隊照表就先把這個計畫13.6G的這樣的一個目標訂出來然後我們逐年逐月去檢討然後過去為什麼會慢把這個慢的因素拿掉然後這個全力去衝刺是你要全力衝刺我希望你能如期並往發電好不好是再來部長請教一下"},{"start":5779.567,"end":5796.219,"text":"經濟部撤銷了桃園市市府終止三家SRF入住桃科的處分請問部長是你拍板決定的嗎?這個不是我拍板決定 這個是有一個審議委員會有11位專家學者然後他們開會決定的"},{"start":5803.257,"end":5830.729,"text":"部長 在你們中央一直說尊重地方地方有自主的裁決權 是不是那所以地方做出了決定要終止它入園那你們到了接受這個這個溯源的時候你們又廢止了我們這個處分那這樣子的話你有尊重到地方嗎你在決定這些事情之前有沒有跟我們地方去溝通的"},{"start":5832.096,"end":5851.518,"text":"我們是從法律面去看的這件事情因為那個入園許可是地方政府的是地方政府的地方政府決定了嘛終止他入園啦要考量民眾大家對空屋的影響會讓大家的健康堪慮所以終止了所以你就要尊重地方啊"},{"start":5852.506,"end":5861.58,"text":"你為什麼要懷財執照?一定要這樣做呢?不是,我們沒有這個決定權那地方政府決定了嘛"},{"start":5862.995,"end":5888.805,"text":"所以當時部長你來我辦公室的時候我跟你說明了很清楚所以我相信你這件事情你應該是很了解的在當時的王前部長的時候專案會議專案許可要讓他進來就是推薦函結果我們地方反彈的時候他說這個只是表述而已沒有法律效益收回兩度收回11月去年的11月12月兩度收回這個推薦函"},{"start":5889.665,"end":5917.744,"text":"那所以說你們又一直表示說尊重地方政府那地方政府做出了決定你又撤銷了他的處分我沒有撤銷他的處分啊你現在撤銷啊要繼續要他進來啊正來書院然後這個是書院會我們召集專家、學者就他的這個內容來做出這個這樣的一個決定這裡面11位的委員有9位是大學教授跟這個法學專家所以他們一致做出這個決定不是我"},{"start":5919.685,"end":5930.963,"text":"所以這個決定權不在地方政府了嗎?中央說尊重地方,地方做了決定,中央又撤銷了這個處分啊所以我們是讓這個書院委員會來做決定,不是我們經濟部做決定"},{"start":5932.95,"end":5949.535,"text":"部長我們希望我們的政府既然尊重地方就要看到地方的民意地方重視他們的健康你們就不要當作沒看到不顧民意不顧民眾的健康到時候我們會努力的來跟你們抗爭因為"},{"start":5950.695,"end":5972.675,"text":"你知道嗎?這觀音、陶科三家這個是固體的發電廠這發電廠的廢棄有多大?你應該都知道吧?那你們呢?你們的那個環境部環境部你自己不去修法這個是標準排廢量的標準你不去修法認為很困難結果你就大開後門然後大開綠燈讓他們進來"},{"start":5975.339,"end":5999.719,"text":"每一次都在專案的我們桃園去年就已經反對了在陣前市長的時候就已經反對了你們用專案要他入園那結果後來又說選舉期限到了要尊重地方你們自己決定沒有法律效益那地方做出決定之後你們又說專家委員大家決定的要撤銷你的處分都跟你們沒關係甩鍋給地方嗎"},{"start":6001.823,"end":6024.809,"text":"我們經濟部本來就不是這個對這個工業區有主管的權利這委員會經濟部你們的專案會議部長王美花部長就開了專案會議你們能源局的給他們這個同意這個設備的這個文件這都是你們這整個發下來的不是跟經濟部沒有關係啊報告委員現在這個問題已經是實際上是存在的"},{"start":6028.61,"end":6043.621,"text":"我現在跟這個台灣市政府我們也都在協商如何處理這個問題那麼現在環境部他有提出他的態度就是說入園許可必須用歐盟的標準那你不修法啊"},{"start":6044.661,"end":6066.018,"text":"我們就去修法我們要討論這個事情那你的修法我們會依法去嚴格審查它的標準多少面積有多少的排放就是固定的啊是不是所以在製之前你們就要尊重地方我們是尊重地方才會進行你說地方是決定權在於地方啊是不是"},{"start":6067.392,"end":6088.686,"text":"所以現在台灣市政府他現在要求我們要給一個國際的定位跟管理的辦法所以我們現在提出一個新的這個定位在你們還沒決定下來我不曉得這個一再的被撤回一再的禁止入園一而再再而再從前朝的經濟部到現在的經濟部不曉得後面有什麼龐大的這個勢力還是有什麼利益你們一定要幫他們開別墾一定要讓他們進來報告委員這個是完全沒有的事情"},{"start":6097.793,"end":6116.392,"text":"我們現在就是說我必須要說我們共同都有討論到台灣電力是要穩定供電不管我們整個產業AI或者是半導體等等我們要穩定供電所以我們還想說現在電力真的是不足連國際連美國智庫都這麼說了所以我們要努力尤其是綠電的問題那但是部長"},{"start":6120.144,"end":6139.331,"text":"當時我們討論的時候我們必須要讓電力穩定必須要把核能列入考量做機載的用電才能夠穩定結果你現在被民進黨的高層校正回饋一下你就回來就爽說非核加鹽還是最終的目標"},{"start":6141.443,"end":6166.541,"text":"這個是依法啦依法可是電力不穩定的話我們台灣怎麼發展我們的AI怎麼發展全球的產業鏈都怎麼來投資呢這個我們會努力因為現在發電的方法還是有很多不要因為沒有辦法拿到綠電就要我們桃科、觀音三個廢棄物的發電廠在我們這邊危害我們鄉親的健康"},{"start":6167.438,"end":6173.466,"text":"部長請你們要尊重民意也尊重我們地方政府好不好是好 謝謝接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做巡討"},{"start":6197.402,"end":6203.208,"text":"謝謝主席請主委及部長好我們請主委跟郭部長兩位請"},{"start":6214.952,"end":6230.668,"text":"主要的補充是內閣的新亮點 大家對你們算是肯定啦 很多的期許不過現在看起來好像被那個電擋住了 對不對我們先看一下你們的老朋友 黃承信讓他講來記者問他說 你會煩惱台灣欠點嗎 你的朋友黃承信讓他講 他說 台灣需要比較多的點"},{"start":6237.878,"end":6261.035,"text":"那未來幾年如果擴大對台灣投資呢?黃宁勳說電力限制當然是個挑戰是個挑戰所以對兩位是很大的挑戰其實有欠電沒欠電啦不是用嘴巴講他應該是科學問題嘛對不對至少兩個事情要做到嘛第一個你們任內不能大停電不能大停電第二個你要推AI、半導體"},{"start":6263.313,"end":6277.814,"text":"產業要跟你講它便利是過的你求防人心你待會看就淡淡嘛這次是你要解決的問題了好來我直接問部長一個比較這幾天大家都在忙你的問題啦你看一下齁有人說你對核電的態度是不是因為一變再變"},{"start":6279.315,"end":6302.631,"text":"你壓力太大嗎?你變了嗎?我練給你聽,你先看,看下螢幕你四月十六,準部長郭志輝說核電廠要不要研議啊?取決於前面評估五月十五你說核電、核能是乾淨的能源核電部分是由多數人同意來做決定,最重要是六月七個一個禮拜前你就站在這邊嘛,對不對?那時候我問你喔,你怎麼說?"},{"start":6305.753,"end":6318.048,"text":"我們會考慮條件是要安全如果安全無疑法令的許可就要做更重要是下面那句話如果修法安全都通過了合二合三可以用20年到30年"},{"start":6321.038,"end":6339.657,"text":"那最大轉變其實就是6月6號那天嘛 對不對?周院長叫你應該諸位也有在嘛 那天都有在嘛 對不對?周院長那天 宴請了民進黨立委那天 被震撼教育了你後來改口說 核電是沒有考慮的一部分 輝和家園的態度沒有改變"},{"start":6341.312,"end":6356.275,"text":"這會不會轉得太大人民現在看的話對你們有期許對不對以前大家民調很高或者有期許的郭智輝郭部長是一個專業務實的負責的經濟部長可是你現在是被政治被意識形態綁架了"},{"start":6358.164,"end":6381.33,"text":"報告委員 這個還是一樣我的前提就是非核家園是沒有變只是我那個時候在講的時候沒有講這一句話所以我的用詞不夠精準這點我非常抱歉但是我想我的意思就是說非核家園是沒有變但是其他的這些假設性問題我在敘述假設性的問題也就是說今天如果我們講說這個法"},{"start":6382.99,"end":6396.025,"text":"已經解掉了然後我們去盤點然後去看他安全無虞然後這個核安會他也通過了認為他是可行的所以我是在講說前面都有前提"},{"start":6397.045,"end":6425.857,"text":"那現在大概很多的朋友就是會比較不注意前面的那個假設部長你沒有很委屈啦沒有被震撼教育啦沒有沒有沒有沒有被震撼教育我問你一下你知道經濟部長你任的經濟部長任期最短的是誰嗎現在大家在關心你啦大家對你有問問嘛希望你當久一點啦謝謝在產業界希望你當久一點是"},{"start":6426.82,"end":6449.709,"text":"可是你知道嗎?經濟部長有的任期很短喔左邊這一位中材宜你知道中材宜是幾岁嗎?你不知道?40多岁你應該不是誤闖叢林的小白兔啦你經驗那麼豐富企業界對你有期待嘛我期待你可以像王美花一樣王美花當了快四年"},{"start":6450.848,"end":6471.811,"text":"可是你到底是一個短命的經濟部長還是一個長命的經濟部長這個很重要喔是一方面任期長不長第二個有沒有幫產業界解決問題我都要講了你任期絕對不要發生大停電產業界的人對你說說你講的是謊話或者你不了解我我根本不敢投資這兩個事情一出現我跟你講你明天就掉下來了"},{"start":6472.981,"end":6495.047,"text":"好不好不要大停電讓產業界講真心話真的幫他們解決問題期待你是王美花的任期不是中產儀可是相對你要幫產業界解決問題好不好不要讓人家覺得說那個以前務實專業的鍋子會不見了好不好主委你要不要幫你的老朋友打打氣主委"},{"start":6496.878,"end":6521.149,"text":"他可以解決剛剛講那兩個問題嘛對不對規大停電 滿足企業界的用電嗎用電是要不足夠喔要是穩定的電喔 低碳的電喔你記得你的老朋友 郭志輝 郭部長可以做得到嗎這個幾乎我們每天都有溝通啦我對他信心十足我信心啦好 所以希望可以做久一點而且可以解決問題啦來 可是啊 我剛才講過啦電夠不夠啊 是科學問題"},{"start":6523.973,"end":6541.334,"text":"不是意識形態跟政治的問題,它還是簡單的數學問題。我們來看你的挑戰在這裡你現在河山廠的一號機727要停了明年五月二號機要停了減了7%的電力我們的電力少了7%"},{"start":6542.967,"end":6565.836,"text":"然後呢你自己講的過去5年我們的平均用電每一年是成長2.03%郭部長你自己講的加上AI進來之後AI需求爆發的影響我們台灣每一年增加的電力是3%你到2029年剩多少萬用5年來算就好了我們的電力至少要增加16%少7%增加16%你去找這麼多電出來你去找這麼多電出來所以那個地方"},{"start":6570.646,"end":6588.358,"text":"把核電當成一個備援的電力對不對然後第二個你現在看起來你的電量生出來你是從大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機嘛對不對可是現在看起來三接到現在端也見完啊你到時候會不會接不上來報告委員那個三接在明年的4月就會見完幾位"},{"start":6592.278,"end":6617.15,"text":"這有把握啦不要不要用那個現在看起來4號跟4J跟5J環境我去看過了你去看過了下禁令狀喔每年4月是啦一定要搞喔是是是有夠的話有3J有成的話才有可能你的大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機才有天然氣可以用是是要不然的話你就真的是缺電了是好不好好來我們再看下一個除了"},{"start":6619.945,"end":6648.477,"text":"4.5G要真的接上來之外還有一個問題就是低碳AI需要穩定的電嘛對不對而且是低碳嘛現在連環保環境部的部長都講2050年淨零碳排台灣不可能另外我提醒一個點發展產業之外台灣人的健康要顧到對不對我相信你有這個體認主委跟部長應該都很注意這個台灣人的費是比較耐操嗎台灣現在用電一年是3000"},{"start":6649.952,"end":6668.633,"text":"三千億度,製造了多少?產生了多少的這個碳?1.27億噸!我們現在肺癌跟肺腺癌發生的是全世界第15離癌的、死掉的致死率最高的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌"},{"start":6669.636,"end":6687.822,"text":"可是現在看起來你的替代方案你核電停掉了低碳的核電停掉了可是你現在都是天然氣喔都是燃煤喔甚至有個內幕很重要你前幾天啊你還把麥寮的燃煤的這個電廠它是民間的你本來跟它五月就是停止合約的嘛 對不對"},{"start":6689.281,"end":6717.255,"text":"你跟他續約到明年底那個是用燃煤那個是對我自己人那個是對嘉義地區對雲林地區對台中、彰化地區那個健康影響是很大的我現在提醒要有足夠的電穩定的電低碳的電的同時顧到人民的健康好不好好的不過那個是報告委員那是婚姻管政府的要求婚姻管政府要求減煤的要求"},{"start":6719.365,"end":6739.776,"text":"問題是你台電在買啊,你如果為了人民的健康,其實我覺得它是那麼古老的電廠,那麼古老的電廠,而且影響是燒的施展煤,為什麼不停呢?你如果電力夠的話,部長,你如果電力夠的話,我鄭重呼籲,我要再買它的電了,因為時間就是到了啊,而且又是施展煤了"},{"start":6743.672,"end":6767.754,"text":"是的 是如您所指導的但是這個部分就是契約契約就夠了 契約就是5月31日夠了你們現在是延期 為什麼要延到明年底啊好不好 這個我們早先再來追啦我跟你講 站在人民的健康其實不是只有雲嘉蘭、彰化跟台中啦你看那個中南部的那個肺腺癌跟肺癌那麼嚴重好不好 人命關天 也注意一下最後我要求兩個東西好不好"},{"start":6769.636,"end":6795.213,"text":"第一個部長你提出電力設施如果銜接不上你有什麼緊急的方案好不好你本來7%的電力硬要把它停掉我知道你可能也為難因為你是政務官嘛你可能也為難河山廠也要計劃停可是緊急發生狀況銜接不上的時候你有什麼緊急方案第二個你現在核能不研議了增加多少的未來一年好了好不好未來一年因為河山廠"},{"start":6796.496,"end":6819.962,"text":"一要及OIT停完之後,你增加多少的碳排跟發電的成本?你兩個禮拜給我的報告好不好?好的好,加油期待不是一個短命的經濟部長可是,如果像黃部長要當4年的話不要大停電而且電力要充,充足的同時要是低碳的,又是一個穩定的電好不好?讓產業真正可以發展好不好?是是好,謝謝部長,也謝謝主委好,謝謝"},{"start":6830.02,"end":6838.187,"text":"謝謝 那我們待會主席還要宣告一下到鄭振權委員質詢我們休息三分鐘請楊瓊議員"},{"start":6861.495,"end":6864.383,"text":"謝謝主席 楊全元發言首先邀請郭部長"},{"start":6872.714,"end":6894.011,"text":"國務部長好在主委跟您的報告當中我們聽到了幾點重點這個主委說他說沒有台灣很難看到世界因為我們台灣佔有關鍵的位置這個非常nice但是他也提到世界人才荒的這個問題"},{"start":6895.252,"end":6919.459,"text":"所以我也歡喜在你的報告當中你首先會提出人才培育的問題在人才培育的問題之前我們上次有說過這個電力等於國力你也認同這樣子的一個論點所以本期呢要告訴你在你還沒有擔任經濟部長的時候那我們在立法院大院裡頭通過了"},{"start":6920.319,"end":6942.468,"text":"也就是當3月份電價委員會審議的時候4月1號開始漲價漲價之餘呢我們立即提出也就是人民在這個時間非常的辛苦所以9月份因為一年要開兩次會9月份不能再漲要動漲今天我很高興的看到經濟報呢寫了卓葵暗示9月不漲電價請教部長卓葵聽到了民眾的聲音您聽到了嗎"},{"start":6950.908,"end":6979.707,"text":"是不是9月我們會朝這個方向來進行請做說明報告委員我經濟部就是尊重這個院的這個指示啦院的指示所以昨回暗示9月部長店家就是動長就這個方向嘛是嗎我還沒有得到這個院長的這個直接的你看到經濟報吧我沒有看你沒有看啊我現在秀給你看謝謝你趕快看你看這麼大一片"},{"start":6980.834,"end":6988.034,"text":"那是不是會朝這個方向呢?立法院大會也已經通過了也建議給行政部門"},{"start":6989.403,"end":7007.936,"text":"報告委員 這個我們回去以後會請示院長那它是不是這樣的一個方向如果是這個方向我們就按照這個方向來做好 我們也希望能夠得到好的方向就是九月動漲 不漲電價大家一起來照顧我們的民生照顧我們的產業好 你拼命地點頭我們就繼續來討論這一個"},{"start":7011.599,"end":7025.708,"text":"大家要清楚你提出宣示2028年要培育20萬名AI的應用工程師來協助我們整個中小產業導入AI智慧跟製造那依照你的規劃你必須要結盟產業工協會"},{"start":7029.051,"end":7058.033,"text":"國際大廠、學校、職業訓練等機構來協助產業AI的課程﹐輔導企業導入AI的應用所以今天教育部也在現場市長也在現場也就是怎麼樣橫向的部會提升製造AI應用普及這個50%至少50%這是您所提出的所以本期要請教這是一個非常對的方向但是是一個大工程我們希望"},{"start":7058.373,"end":7085.249,"text":"不是只有口號而是真正能夠落實所以請教部長四年培育的20萬名AI的人才你預估有多少是我們的國人是我們的國人大部分都是我們國人大部分都是我們國人我想這個劉主委他在講的部分是跟那個教育部在談的就是這個最高階的在做這個模型的這個工程師這個部分大概從外部進來大概我想大概兩三千人"},{"start":7086.149,"end":7098.017,"text":"但是我要訓練的是實作的在現場操作的工程師跟微調設計的工程師所以這一部分我想大部分都是我們國人也就是20萬裡面我想應該有18萬都是國人"},{"start":7101.86,"end":7117.211,"text":"好 20萬名你要訓練的有18萬名是我國我們自己中華民國的國人我們一起努力所以本期給你一個功課因為國防部也在這邊教育部也在這邊應該要將我國的這一些"},{"start":7118.132,"end":7129.335,"text":"AI的人才必須要做一個橫向前瞻性的一個完整的計劃我也希望你們橫向組織聯繫也一份書面資料給本席那接下來我們還是來講電的問題微軟的創辦人比爾蓋茲他主導的他在美國建了這個第四代的核電廠開工他也表示這是美國潮者"},{"start":7147.503,"end":7164.458,"text":"安全、豐富以及零碳能源。」所以這一項工作成功之後對於美國未來的國家整個的競爭力是非常的重要請教郭部長你認同這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":7170.765,"end":7188.28,"text":"這個國外的新的技術我們都有在觀察有在留意因為它現在還是在做一些實驗還不是完全做商業運轉所以我們還沒有辦法看到它的基本所需求的安全、核廢料如果是這個樣子的話我們當然會再討論會來參考、豐富、安全"},{"start":7197.782,"end":7225.419,"text":"還有零碳的這個能源這個是大家都希望的嘛所以我們也希望能夠跟世界來接軌主席我也請我們國防委主委主委對於比爾蓋茲所提出的這樣子的第四代核電廠的一個開工他的論點剛剛郭部長說如果是這個方向你們會來參考那您的立場呢?你的看法呢?"},{"start":7227.514,"end":7247.866,"text":"報委員我大概有一點瞭解他現在是用鈉然後取代過去的水他的輻射量會低一些但是因為鈉碰到空氣會燃燒所以他的安全性還有待觀察那他現在是先凍土還沒有辦法到進一步的核准執照所以我們還要持續觀察他的結果才能定論"},{"start":7248.046,"end":7264.872,"text":"好 這個回答非常好也就是我們各個部門都必須要能夠跟世界來接軌因為全球都在搶人才全球也都對於整個電力給予高度的關注我們必須要好好的去了解因為國力"},{"start":7266.727,"end":7273.172,"text":"電力等於國力。」沒有電力,什麼都不用講了,對不對?好,所以在這樣的一個情況之下,我繼續要來請問那個郭部長,台電公司的財務問題也是一直我關心的"},{"start":7281.798,"end":7305.728,"text":"您在上一次本席請教的時候您說了一句話你說你不支持以公務預算來指引但是目前情況會讓我們嚇一跳所以在這種情況之下呢本席要來請教目前我們自產的一度電2.3塊你買的電不夠你要買的是5.09塊你買了綠能風力發電的一度電多少一度電多少"},{"start":7308.766,"end":7313.149,"text":"Open Book已經在上面你自己看我已經給你Open Book了鋒利綠電多少?你買了多少?6.8塊所以在這樣情況之下台電的財務如果不解決它一直虧損你沒有辦法穩定供電"},{"start":7333.673,"end":7358.803,"text":"這怎麼辦所以您跟我有約定兩件事情第一個在這個會期結束前你會公布包括AI所加入的電力的需求量第二個台電財務的問題要怎麼處理你都還是會在這個會期結束前會告訴我們國人嗎是的是的所以我們就拭目以待好好來做那最後我請國發會"},{"start":7362.779,"end":7386.426,"text":"部長你請回國科會的主委吳主委他說了他說台灣廠商如果不走出去就是面臨嚴重的五缺缺工缺地缺資源等等這是吳主委所說的"},{"start":7387.489,"end":7410.229,"text":"但是在剛剛郭部長所說的他要培育20萬人他也認為我們的電沒問題當然不包括AI的部分還要再統計所以本期要請教國科會主委台灣廠商如果真的不走出去是不是真的會面臨到缺工、缺地、缺資源的問題請教"},{"start":7413.989,"end":7437.207,"text":"謝謝委員我輔導過很多廠商走出去他主要的目的主要是前進國際市場然後加入整個國際供應鏈的需求那這是整個國際的趨勢那也是台灣要進入一個日不落帝國的請回答本席的提問如果我們的廠商不出走我們會面臨在國內的缺工缺地缺資源嗎"},{"start":7438.851,"end":7457.987,"text":"目前來看我認為台灣比較辛苦的會是土地面積的問題社會缺嗎所以你也認同國會會吳主委的說法只有土地因為我們現在你認同他的一部分好一部分接下來我要告訴你他講的是真的你們不要粉飾太平要面對問題去解決問題"},{"start":7460.129,"end":7483.338,"text":"因為在我們的國科會半導體晶片研發的績效來說他申請的人數你看本期的資料OpenBook給你他是往下降的案件也在減少AI的這個A4代的半導體前瞻半導體及量子這個技術研究的計畫裡頭110年申請的是376年111年是201人112年是138人"},{"start":7489.841,"end":7508.141,"text":"今年剩下25人所以你們的橫向必須要去看他那一邊已經短出那麼多了而且我們看到新興晶片設計研發的計畫跟次世代核物半導體的研發計畫申請的人數一直在低減今年剩下多少 30人"},{"start":7510.393,"end":7536.301,"text":"主委本席給你這個數字在國科會的數量是如此心驚驚的真的會怕你不缺人嗎本席有疑慮有疑慮所以我希望的我們要如何的去協助推動產業橫向的聯繫不會非常的重要好不好因為我們要去面對這個問題一個國會委員會主委已經告訴你如果不出走會怎麼樣了那到時候台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":7538.962,"end":7547.247,"text":"台灣怎麼辦?所以本席非常的希望因為這是一個大功課也是一個人類改變的關鍵時刻就誠如你所說的沒有台灣看不到全世界我們很高興的我們的人才都在台灣產生在全世界發揚光大我們更要實際去面對問題橫向政府有這個職責必須要協助產業這是本席給你的功課請你去把它整理好"},{"start":7566.638,"end":7579.711,"text":"去把它整理好我們該缺的要怎麼樣去應對這是我們必要做的好不好你把它整理好順便資料給本席好嗎我會跟國科會討論一下謝謝好 謝謝劉書偉請回好 謝謝接下來我們請謝一鋒委員請做詢答"},{"start":7600.502,"end":7607.692,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的劉主委跟我們經濟部的郭部長我們再請劉主委跟郭部長"},{"start":7617.042,"end":7635.338,"text":"我想請教一下今天早上我們郭部長說如果計算進去就是說我們AI的這個用電的話那未來是3%的這個成長用電的成長那我想要了解"},{"start":7636.638,"end":7653.384,"text":"這個3%的用電成長是我們原先預估的就是在AI沒有蓬勃發展的情況下我們所預估的3%還是在我們看到了AI產業有回答"},{"start":7654.224,"end":7654.784,"text":"這兩個用電的估算還是3%嗎?"},{"start":7673.508,"end":7693.485,"text":"跟委員報告上禮拜我剛好有參加這方面的會議的確是上禮拜重新估計的上禮拜重新估計但是我說了你說的是上禮拜重新估計但是我說的是估計的是原先預估保守的這種成長還是是爆炸性的成長"},{"start":7694.585,"end":7709.741,"text":"這是含AI的成長我知道這是含AI過去你的3%就是含AI的成長了但是我們所說的是說如果AI蓬勃發展的時候你的用電供電的成長還是3%嗎"},{"start":7713.021,"end":7741.863,"text":"我們現在是以目前的狀態評估出來的數字是目前的那我不清楚委員彭博的定義大概會到什麼程度那目前我們大概我的了解是郭部長他們去問了很多業界然後台電也問了很多業界綜合出來業界所反映的訊息整理出來的也許郭部長可以做進一步的說可是如果按照回答他的架構他的新產品他的用電量會激增2到3倍"},{"start":7742.623,"end":7770.901,"text":"那這樣子的情況下我們的用電量是否還是3%每年的成長?國部長你有數字嗎?報告委員這個這一部分它們雖然是會增加但是它新的這個晶片也會降能會降能對對對就是說降低它的這個電的能耗所以它未來的用電的成長不會像"},{"start":7771.857,"end":7795.112,"text":"我們大家一般業界的評估的這麼高嗎?是不是?不會這樣這麼高,是不是?而且我跟委員報告主要是這樣子就是說他們現在所晶片有在有降能那另外做成的這個伺服器啊伺服器也會因為這個他剛開始要做這個數據中心他可能不會用那麼大的這個伺服器"},{"start":7795.872,"end":7811.124,"text":"所以他會漸漸地看然後看完以後他最後他那個比較大台的比如說那個350M的或者500M的那個那個一定都是放在比較後面的投資不會一開始就投資那麼大我想對投資者來講他也會慢慢地去"},{"start":7812.125,"end":7827.653,"text":"去測試我們的電到底是有沒有那麼多啦我想這個是事實嘛大家都清楚啦不可能一聲就國伯要勤奮三八五十年勤奮所以初期是不會那麼高對 初期一定不會那麼高所以我們過去的這個現在雖然講說3%我們認為3%其實是應該可以滿足這個市場的需求但2028年以後如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好"},{"start":7839.261,"end":7865.858,"text":"那麼我們就是要比較擔心但是我想因為我們現在在看了觀察我們是動態的在觀察所以我們現在另外一個我可以在這個地方跟各位報告就是說大家都擔心我們店可能不夠不過我們從現在一直在檢討做這個節能的這個方案所以這個方案如果我推的下去的話我事實上非常有機會來滿足"},{"start":7869.34,"end":7883.746,"text":"這個2025到2028的成長那我想要了解的就是目前大家都認為說你說未來就是政府部門不應該再就是撥補給台電嗎那電價電價會不會漲是不是你看這是台電的資產負債表4月底的資產負債表它累計的虧損是4400億這樣子高的數字那如果未來"},{"start":7896.621,"end":7915.402,"text":"政府部門過去都是由政府部門吸收以及當初你也講的你原本是要降低就是平均的發電的成本因為從你過去的經驗你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本那未來有沒有可能"},{"start":7915.842,"end":7932.282,"text":"在如果目前大家看來好像核能是比較成本是相對比較低的這個情況下那未來沒有可能降低那政府部門又不撥補的情況下那是不是勢必電價就會"},{"start":7934.417,"end":7962.074,"text":"如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估那麼只從這個成本上面去考量的話就會像這個委員你所指教的不過我認為啦這個一個公司的經營必須要看我這個營運的效益跟我所使用材料的成本跟我人力我想這個成本的部分我們除了這個材料的成本以外人力的成本然後運作的這個效益"},{"start":7962.954,"end":7983.411,"text":"這些都是我可以去努力的部分那雖然我們材料成本佔非常的高不過我們現在就是就是女人的成本嗎天然氣跟燃煤的成本嗎您所說的關心的這個核能的這個成本如果核能成本我全部替換了以後我事實上每一度增加的成本並不高"},{"start":7984.893,"end":7990.376,"text":"並不高因為過去我們的這個可能只佔了這個目前是只佔了這個6%到7%所以他真的這個"},{"start":7996.311,"end":8024.249,"text":"90幾%的成本在那邊是固定的啦這個部分真的能佔的部分太小它所影響出來的這個價格是非常的小的那我必須要由這個一些這個妥善率啊或者是漏食的部分啊或者是一些績效不好的地方去努力報告委員我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案節能方案就是ESCO這個方案那麼這個方案呢我可以讓"},{"start":8025.836,"end":8025.856,"text":"業者"},{"start":8026.991,"end":8055.871,"text":"他們也可以降低它的電費那多久可以執行?你節能的方向多久可以執行?因為你必須要在缺口產生之前你如果這樣子說這樣子會增加企業多少的成本?你不能只用高科技產業來看你必須要看影響就業人口最多數的中小企業的人"},{"start":8056.852,"end":8081.526,"text":"他會增加多少成本?基本上我們先滿足中小企業以及一般的商家跟一般的住家的用電我們朝向這一部分剛才我想楊委員也有特別指導我們這一部分的話就是按照院長他如果說只是這一部分我們不長的話我們就努力朝這個部分來努力的"},{"start":8082.549,"end":8098.772,"text":"所以你在不漲電價的情況下你是以節能的方式去因應嗎對對對我們會朝著這個節能的部分來努力臺電的成本呢臺電的虧損呢臺電不會產生虧損不會產生虧損如果我們這個推的數據的話臺電會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉是你說的是不是我說的"},{"start":8112.18,"end":8139.655,"text":"經營公司我想我們不可能讓它倒閉啦這個財務有財務的問題我們會去努力但是我個人認為經營一個公司最重要是效益跟效率的問題台電會不會倒閉那如果不會倒閉就不會產生你的認知是這樣是不是你是說不會缺電不會缺電也不會倒閉不會也不會增加成本"},{"start":8141.254,"end":8153.979,"text":"不會增加成本也不會有虧損虧損就過去的虧損是新的不會虧損對新的不會虧損那總經理要不要說一下是不是不會虧損"},{"start":8156.844,"end":8170.796,"text":"報告委員部長因為來自於企業界他對整個成本方面都會有要求那我們會把整個的細節再分析給部長聽到時候會做比較詳細的一個瞭解之後再判斷好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":8183.837,"end":8203.163,"text":"我給部長補充因為前任的部長說有政府台電就不會倒你要大方一點沒問題當然我們也歡喜聽到你是以經營的方式台電不會倒這個是讓國人有信心但是你說台電不增加成本"},{"start":8204.093,"end":8214.399,"text":"那不會虧損這個有一點疑慮啦我們也拭目以待你可以提出方案好 接下來我們請鄭振賢委員請做巡討謝主席我想請一下國防匯流主委、經濟部郭部長還有我們國科會的林部主委請以上三位"},{"start":8240.756,"end":8264.21,"text":"謝謝主席今天特別針對AI這個部分做了一個安排的一個專題報告那我在想說過去這一兩個禮拜以來因為Computex就是那個輝達NVIDIA他們經常到台灣來的時候也引起了一個很大的一個旋風那讓全世界都看到台灣在AI這領域的一個重要性那也讓台灣"},{"start":8265.211,"end":8293.89,"text":"就是認為除了在半導體這個護國神山之外的時候我們可能還會有很多護國神山會陸續的一個生成我們也非常的開心可是在講AI這部分的時候我覺得有三個力三力一定要去處理的一個是人力一個是算力一個是電力這三力我覺得是發展我們AI很重要的三個不同的領域那我在想說我目前因為很多"},{"start":8295.311,"end":8320.934,"text":"委員同仁也都提到了人力跟電力的一個部分那我覺得這個部分我想先從算力這邊來切入算力這邊比較少人講那我這邊也要特別先問一下國防會主委這邊因為我們在講發展AI當中的時候可是好像沒有看到一個從政府的一個角度對於整個國家算力提升的部分有一個很具體的一個做法"},{"start":8321.514,"end":8334.747,"text":"這個部分有沒有一些具體的後續要去做的部分那個主委這邊可不可以先講一下報告委員這個分工上能不能請國科會來他主導我請他是不是先做說明我再補充"},{"start":8336.014,"end":8350.36,"text":"讓國科會做說明是不是這個部分我本來是要講說整個AI相關的部分因為算力是整個AI裡面很重要的一環那整個AI這個部分的時候如果說你要讓國科會這邊先講的時候也沒問題我想說讓國科會這邊先來回應一下"},{"start":8355.034,"end":8373.422,"text":"那個跟委員報告目前整個國網的算力大概是36的Peta Flow的PF那相較於這個韓國跟日本比起來的確是差很多現在韓國跟日本都有四五百以上那麼所以呢我們未來如果要以"},{"start":8374.102,"end":8402.898,"text":"AI去發展百工百業然後讓台灣成為一個AI的大國的話的確是我們在算力事要大幅增進 確實不夠嘛 因為其實本席從上一屆當中的時候對於整個國家算力的部分就非常的關注我們國網中心 坦白說我舉個簡單的例子我們國網中心支援了半導體研究中心半導體研究中心它支援了很多高校裡面大家的一個研究的一個計畫一堆學生在抱怨 裡面根本都跑不動"},{"start":8404.219,"end":8423.835,"text":"就是排程跑不動那時間都跑不動然後光是一個學術單位都沒辦法支援的時候你要怎麼樣去帶動產業這個部分我其實是很懷疑的我後來去看了一下調了一下我們所有的預算就看到我們跟整個算力提供有關的大概只有在整個國研院下面"},{"start":8424.676,"end":8444.286,"text":"有一個高效能計算技術研發建置與維運今年113的預算總共只有6.6億,非常的少總共只有6.2億,抱歉只有6.2億,其實非常的少這裡面還包括維運的部分建置的部分又再砍一半所以我覺得以這樣的部分要用"},{"start":8445.226,"end":8468.245,"text":"國家的力量來支援算力我就本席是非常擔心的可是我覺得因為算力其實當我們現在整個在做尤其像今天在做AI的一個主題當中我們還希望讓整個產業從數位轉型走到AI轉型的時候那政府就必須要更有一些算力掌控在手上作為我們一些政策的工具我這樣講應該是對的嘛 對不對"},{"start":8470.467,"end":8494.47,"text":"所以目前看起來若只靠國網中因為國網中本來就是在支援學術研究的一個機制對產業來說其實是遠遠的不夠所以我在這邊要請教一下郭部長因為我在看你在針對之前那個業務報告的時候你有特別提到就是在整個推動產業AI應用的部分你提到說本部爭取國際大廠免費提供"},{"start":8495.131,"end":8511.58,"text":"AI超級電腦部分算力資源提到算力資源那麼要加速建構台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術這個部分所以就是說以經濟部的角度來看的時候經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持是這樣子嗎經濟部的算力有經濟部的這個預算吧"},{"start":8517.968,"end":8519.83,"text":"經濟部有哪些具體預算在提升算力?"},{"start":8549.149,"end":8572.888,"text":"這個是目前就台灣幾個比較重要的一個超級電腦的一個部分目前排第一個是台北萬是輝達提供的那提供部分這當然就是經濟部這邊有大Aplus計畫當中有支持60億左右的一個預算所以我在想說部長這邊提到說要用企業的資源我以為你要用的是這個部分"},{"start":8573.668,"end":8597.064,"text":"那這個部分本席也接受因為經濟部有補助經費那麼要從台北灣這邊去share資源給政府來使用給企業使用我都覺得可以沒有不行所以你剛剛提到說我們經濟部有另外的一個算力的一個研究中心算力中心的一個計畫你再提供給我因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的那我要講的狀態是目前台灣的這幾個重要的超級電腦當中排名第二個是"},{"start":8604.089,"end":8630.605,"text":"氣象署的超級電腦第三個就是台三二號這個部分排名目前是排名106全世界排名106他剛成立的時候排名第20排名第20本來是很好的一個狀態現在完全往後退了那我們接下來再看到就是接下來的部分呢台灣這邊排名比較前面的這些超級電腦的部分就是兩個是"},{"start":8633.053,"end":8647.087,"text":"兩個是氣象署的 兩個是國網中心的兩個氣象署 兩個國網中心然後一個是額蘇時 另外一個是輝達大概就是這樣子那以這個部分來看的時候呢我覺得台灣的算力其實是明顯的不足我剛剛舉這個例子"},{"start":8648.328,"end":8668.61,"text":"就從前年的時候我在看在質詢就是我們國防中心預算的時候我就覺得整個這部分是不夠的可是雖然今年的預算有增加十幾%可是金額還是非常的小對於台灣要去成就這樣的一個算力中心我覺得是非常的不夠那所以這部分我希望說就國發會主委這一邊你能夠"},{"start":8670.692,"end":8685.462,"text":"跟橫向聯繫跟我們經濟部跟我們國科會這邊一起來提升看怎麼樣子來讓台灣的算力是夠的因為算力不夠的時候AI要去發展其實是緣木求魚我覺得這部分在這邊特別提這個部分"},{"start":8686.723,"end":8715.322,"text":"謝謝委員我順便補充一下我們現在國科會在沙倫這邊規劃一個超級電腦中心會超過100的Peta Flow那另外在金創計畫以後再往上加那應該會額外增加100多的Peta Flow所以我們在金創計畫當中的時候要成立就是新的我們的算力中心是這樣子嘛 對不對在金創計畫接下來10年過程當中我們要建立兩個我們的算力中心 對不對國科會主委"},{"start":8716.383,"end":8718.986,"text":"這個部分我們就拭目以待那接下來的部分我覺得我還是要特別提到電力因為事實上算力器就是電力"},{"start":8736.283,"end":8751.17,"text":"那我這邊要特別問一下郭部長因為坦白說你在就職之前的時候來拜訪的時候你就特別提到了說我們也建築媒體就是說你就是電力提供充足是最重要的一個關鍵從企業界來一定需要有電力嘛"},{"start":8752.03,"end":8760.618,"text":"那當時你也提到河山研議其實是選項之一因為到時候要如果不夠的時候河山研議可是因為你吃了一頓飯之後我發現變了那這個部分我要講一個點就是說說實話你從企業界來接這個位置大家對你有很多的期待"},{"start":8769.045,"end":8795.562,"text":"因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念跟務實的態度引進政府的部門所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情那我這邊要特別講其實整個河南的狀態其實整個世界也在改變你上次你有回答我說你們也在關注很多新科技的一個部分那至少目前為止在發展整個高科技產業當中包括微軟包括Amazon"},{"start":8796.183,"end":8811.123,"text":"包括openAI他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站那這個部分就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常非常的重要那你從高科技來我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實那你"},{"start":8811.784,"end":8827.912,"text":"去吃了飯之後你跟我們講說現在電力是夠的未來也都會夠即使碰到了AI的一個爆炸期之後還會夠那我希望你到時候到本辦公室做一個更細部的一個說明那我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵啦因為你去吃了飯之後呢這個政策改變的時候很多"},{"start":8829.008,"end":8854.368,"text":"竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久說實話因為他們覺得你會不適應可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變針對這個部分你可以簡單做一個回應報告委員我想這個河山的問題這個是有很多假設性跟前提我可能說話不夠精準不過我想這部分這個報告的部分我會更精準來跟委員報告"},{"start":8855.109,"end":8874.99,"text":"那麼這個新的核能剛才您所指導的這三家公司它是第四代的核能那麼我們對新的核能科技我們會持續的觀察持續的注意那如果它能夠得到我們國人大家的同意我想我們會有一些考慮"},{"start":8876.792,"end":8900.486,"text":"所以說針對第四代合理反而是可以考慮的一個方向那今天我再補一個CNBC美國一個很重要的財經媒體他今天也特別報導了台灣面臨缺電的一個問題當我們整個全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業表達支持AI的部分可是我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的一個"},{"start":8901.863,"end":8917.515,"text":"特別的一個產業所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心台灣電力不夠的時候我希望部長這邊的時候也能夠加快的去做一些調整然後到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的一個報告好不好好的謝謝 以上好 謝謝好 我們現在休息三分鐘"},{"start":8934.153,"end":8947.963,"text":"臺山三秒是GP,不是GP,臺山二秒是GP,不是GP,不是GP,"},{"start":8963.818,"end":8965.421,"text":"全球首發展委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8977.552,"end":8983.716,"text":"這個他都看不到捏,我們傳寄他都看不到啊我們是這隻啊我們是這隻的啊暗掉的對啊他沒有開啊他都沒開啊"},{"start":8993.622,"end":9009.733,"text":"不是,都沒看到,因為部長這樣弄,他不會去按那個,所以他剛剛都沒看到,我們傳他都沒看到啊,因為我在這邊看,他才,對,保證這樣看不到了,我們傳東西他就看不到,他這樣看不到了,對,你要按那個"},{"start":9019.94,"end":9028.686,"text":"有有有,我們有,我家群組有看到署長可是他看不到這樣夠大嗎?應該是要這樣這個這個這個"},{"start":9035.391,"end":9042.194,"text":"啊你看看那張圖好好好謝謝謝謝師傅那你那個框框框框框框框框框框框框框框框框框框框框"},{"start":9320.728,"end":9348.848,"text":"好謝謝大家辛苦了我們繼續開會來請就座我們現在請鄭天才委員請做詢答主席、各位委員有請那個國發會主委、經濟部部長好請兩位謝謝"},{"start":9350.438,"end":9377.455,"text":"再加上這個教育部外部次長大家好這個對於這個國部長對於核電又改變這樣的一個我還是要其免上次在這裡我也特別跟這個國部長提到"},{"start":9381.854,"end":9403.208,"text":"這個核能、核電它是一個專業的部分所以在你上次的報告裡面,郭部長上次的報告核安、核電議題三大前提核安要確保、核廢墟處理社會有共識尊重國會審議及討論"},{"start":9406.716,"end":9432.291,"text":"這些都是涉及到專業上次我也特別提到就算立法院要審議立法委員大部分沒有這個專業所以還是要靠專業請問一下郭部長你上任到現在有沒有跟台電各"},{"start":9434.867,"end":9463.402,"text":"負責核電的這些台電的人員討論過?負責核電的同仁是沒有討論過啦但是跟台電的同仁是幾乎每天都在討論好這個我建議部長要跟台電負責核電的同仁還有核能研究所要討論也許還有其他的相關涉及到的"},{"start":9464.737,"end":9491.275,"text":"這個部會這個是涉及到專業的而且這個涉及到我們今天討論的AI各方面都是需要電力的這個我不是專業但是我認為應該是要去好好的討論這個當然我們之所以合適"},{"start":9493.39,"end":9512.599,"text":"這個整個關閉就是因為福島事故嘛日本的福島事故但是日本馬上就很快的就重啟了對不對他很快重啟所以他這個整個已經重啟了10部機組所以他從目前的"},{"start":9513.581,"end":9527.008,"text":"百分之不到百分之五在2030年提高到百分之二十之二十二這是他們日本對核電的一個處理所以這個部分是科技一直在進步"},{"start":9528.71,"end":9546.91,"text":"所以相關的這些過去引發的這些事故都也會因為科技的進步然後去解決所以這個怎麼樣讓人民安心產業更安心這很重要回到今天的主題"},{"start":9550.364,"end":9558.486,"text":"這個經濟部的這裏面提到AI運用普及力能從目前12.3%提升至50%製造業以及2028年製造業AI運用普及力能從目前12.3%提升至50%這個是要這個積極的來達成這個目標當然這裏面"},{"start":9578.208,"end":9604.858,"text":"無論是經濟部的報告、國發會的報告或者是數發部的報告都提到AI人才、AI人才的培育百工百業的這些應用然後相關的認證、發展各方面而且是跨部會,確實是跨部會"},{"start":9606.508,"end":9629.152,"text":"請問一下部長還是或者是國安會主委這個跨部會誰來負責整合或是說來召集國安會主委你來回答可能比較適合是的跨部會是國安會會來負責國安會當然你的人力也是有限這個國安會負責很多的業務"},{"start":9634.243,"end":9662.691,"text":"這個相關的這些各部會的業務都有關係中長程計劃的核定各方面審議人力怎麼樣去這個人力最多的書發部都請他們多發揮這方面的這樣可以節省你們的人力因為我是老公務員我會強調會比較考慮這個我是30年公務員會比較考慮這個部分"},{"start":9663.936,"end":9689.591,"text":"好 這個那個主委你就先回座部長還有那個教育部因為時間的關係這個我還是要談到原住民的部分畢竟原住民的立委我要讓部長還有教育部了解我過去在台灣省政府服務"},{"start":9691.202,"end":9712.808,"text":"20年然後經審之後到中央服務常務副主委當過6年多民國85年民國85年當時的省政府教育廳跟明智工專明智工專也就是王永慶這個企業"},{"start":9716.185,"end":9743.919,"text":"對原住民開設專班在明治公專最早的專班就是這個專班開設專班培育原住民的人才能夠到台售的企業所以當時這些人這些開設專班的人大部分現在都在雲林雲林的台售廠我講這個部分就是說AI"},{"start":9745.429,"end":9773.343,"text":"這個部分我上次也有跟部長提到AI原住民的人才怎麼樣能夠鼓勵他們所以這必須要產業跟教育教育部大專校院怎麼樣能夠合作也讓原住民的人才會往這個方向去發展因為這個原住民的教育我再講一次"},{"start":9774.525,"end":9801.459,"text":"沿漢的教育落差帶大專校園的出債協力出債協力高達30%的落差但是很多的學校尤其是科技大學它去開專班之後到產業界就有很好的一個發展所以這個部分要請"},{"start":9803.825,"end":9814,"text":"經濟部跟教育部這邊共同的來去合作及推動這個部長要不要先發表一下"},{"start":9815.351,"end":9837.516,"text":"報告委員我們的百工百業對AI的人才沒有訓練那麼高階的LLM的部分但是我們是訓練在微調跟使用上面那這個就是說它除了接受一段的訓練以後它就可以發揮所以這個是訓練很快它可能是半年的訓練以後就馬上可以再"},{"start":9838.616,"end":9866.633,"text":"馬上可以在它工作上面應用所以我才有辦法說訓練那麼多人那麼多人來以後因為透過AI來訓練AI我想那個是更快所以可以讓整個經濟提升提升那個價值減少那個loss這個就是我們推動AI的最大的目的好 那個教育部政策我先簡要說明剛才部長講得也非常好"},{"start":9868.463,"end":9889.151,"text":"當初啊我那時候在省政府原住民行政局當副局長去協調這個教育廳然後這個明治公專其實他也不是正式的那個我所謂的這個專班啊也不是正式的協程啊他就是利用暑假開了那個專班"},{"start":9891.053,"end":9909.21,"text":"然後就去學會一技之長然後就到台塑企業是這樣所以剛剛部長也講了他不一定是要一個是一個整個大學的四年的學程部長可以往這方向去市長可以往這方向去努力嗎"},{"start":9910.691,"end":9933.177,"text":"跟這個委員報告那其實像剛剛委員提到我們現在這個在技職這一塊我們有這個產業這個產業產息這2.0這個計畫他基本上就是要結合這個技高還有這個科大跟企業合在一起就讓這些學生其他學的技術因為以前都是學技術之後可能還要考試但是我們現在就是讓他可以"},{"start":9934.217,"end":9960.552,"text":"順利的在科大的即高畢業就可以就業然後可以領薪水然後一邊工作然後一邊也可以這個學技術然後在科大然後可以得到學位那這個部分的人數其實目前全台灣其實大概是7000多人其實一直在往上提升那我們未來也會繼續推動這一塊讓這個那特別是另外也跟委員報告就是說我們在原住民這邊其實在我們在目前在我們有25個大學我們有"},{"start":9961.772,"end":9982.905,"text":"這個設立25個專班那也給這些大學經費鼓勵他們就是在這邊給原住民的同學他有一些一好的training所以我想這部分是教育部是在持續的都一直在努力在做希望教育部能夠跟經濟部合作對這個AI產業的部分對原住民的部分能夠給他們這個學習的機會進入產業界的機會好不好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":9990.32,"end":10012.159,"text":"這個就是之前教育部我們推的是4加1現在又來一個3加2所以我們就很希望說委員所希望的就是你要針對需求者去讓他落實在產業當中這樣子不是只有口號啊所以你現在是改3加2應該要給委員說明清楚謝謝來接下來我們請張家俊委員"},{"start":10020.024,"end":10037.512,"text":"主席我想先請國發會主委 劉主委我們再請劉主委主委今天委員會的這個主題聚焦在產業AI化請教一下主委您覺得目前台灣的AI指數在全世界的排名如何你知道嗎"},{"start":10041.127,"end":10063.842,"text":"這有很多不同方面的排名目前根據英國的機構公布的2023全球AI指數的排名我們台灣排名全世界的第26名美國跟中國大陸分居第一名跟第二名新加坡是第三名根據這個排名我們還有很大的進步空間"},{"start":10065.143,"end":10086.819,"text":"尤其如何增加投資規模、增加企業數量以及實踐都是重要的指標這一點有賴國發會繼續去鬆綁相關的規範法規在刺激民間的投資再請教主委有沒有看過由人工智慧科技基金會進行的台灣產業AI化的調查"},{"start":10090.032,"end":10116.332,"text":"這份沒有看過好 沒有看過那這個調查裡面主要我細節就不講了主要就是說開始將AI導入公司的運營流程裡面這個報導裡面說有將近54%都開始已經導入了這就證明了實務界總是跑在這個政府的政策之前那本席想請教的就是說行政體系AI化有沒有做過相關的調查"},{"start":10119.221,"end":10133.815,"text":"行政體系AI化我目前了解應該是沒有是沒有嗎?那有沒有想過一些公部門在哪些方面可以很迅速的導入AI優化這個行政流程呢?"},{"start":10135.424,"end":10154.375,"text":"這個部分就我了解就是各單位都有用到CHAP GDP然後去主要去做資料的搜尋報表的整理那本席舉幾個例子給這個國發會主委建議譬如這個交通管控系統可以透過AI適度的來減少員警的工作量"},{"start":10154.995,"end":10170.286,"text":"然後減少用路人的行車時間包括各級政府的1999通報系統也可以透過AI的運用來提高服務品質那包括各級司法單位的意識系統都可以"},{"start":10170.666,"end":10185.842,"text":"用AI來協助書記官做筆錄甚至可以更公正客觀這都仰賴國發會去制定一套進程讓各級政府可以去遵守請問主委你覺得本席所提的這個您同意嗎"},{"start":10187.024,"end":10213.204,"text":"這一點我同意也順便跟委員報告這些我過去在一些地方政府也規劃過類似的專案譬如說救護車經過的時候透過5G沿路就可以亮綠燈然後車上跟計程車連線就可以開始控制那有些醫院現在也開始導入這樣的系統所以希望未來提AI化的部分絕對不要忘記增列我們行政機關其實也迫切需要導入一些AI的這個系統"},{"start":10214.965,"end":10217.528,"text":"那我可不可以請經濟部長也一起上來請過部長部長就是說今天我們討論AI的議題那AI的伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍以上大家都知道包括說這個GPT每天"},{"start":10238.186,"end":10241.387,"text":"在美國是要耗56萬度電大約是我們台灣這個每日4萬戶的平均用電量那這樣子來說我們的這個電力問題我也想部長跟主委必須要重視因為現在我們的半導體主要競爭對手就是韓國"},{"start":10259.795,"end":10261.958,"text":"韓國他現在一直在操作說我們台灣有能源問題所以我們政府一定要不要再粉飾太平了你看這麼多的韓國集體的在抹黑我們"},{"start":10274.753,"end":10276.295,"text":"不只韓國,連美國的財經媒體CNBC都報導身為全球半導體的重鎮台灣正面臨電力短缺的疑慮"},{"start":10296.294,"end":10318.782,"text":"那比爾蓋茲投資的泰拉能源也在昨天宣布要蓋這個新的核電廠那NVIDIA的黃仁勳執行長他在離開台灣之前他也說他說台灣的能源問題將會是他設廠的一大挑戰那你們都說不用擔心可不可以告訴我為什麼我們不用擔心能源問題報告委員我們現在"},{"start":10323.134,"end":10330.328,"text":"不用擔心的意思就是我的供電的容量跟需求我的供電還是大於需求的"},{"start":10331.994,"end":10355.847,"text":"就是您自己說的你們要推動這個AI未來會增加每年3%以上的用電那這個核電減少之後核三廠退役之後我們還會有個7%的電力缺口加起來有10%的電力缺口你現在告訴我不用擔心的理由到底是什麼我們為什麼可以不用擔心我們在之前就已經把這個都考慮進去了"},{"start":10357.898,"end":10358.719,"text":"我們的基礎是在這幾年會一直上來"},{"start":10374.997,"end":10391.832,"text":"怎麼上來?有哪些基礎?可不可以一一跟我說明說有哪些發電的基礎是今年、明年會跟上可以補正10%的缺口之外還可以再支持AI產業來推動?報告委員我可以請台電的總經理跟您"},{"start":10392.992,"end":10410.364,"text":"我想要部長說因為部長本來包括主委都告訴我說核能是選項之一結果最近你們兩位都轉向了我想要知道說兩位是不是有受到上級單位指示說不要再講你們支持核能了報告委員我們過去個人的這個"},{"start":10418.106,"end":10423.65,"text":"言論我想這個是有時間的差還差不到幾天就變化這麼大你告訴我是因為時間差時空背景不一樣本席不能接受所以部長跟主委我真心希望你們不要違背你們自己的初衷你們是產業界的希望這是未來我們台灣放眼50年產業界的希望是決定在你們現在"},{"start":10447.469,"end":10468.146,"text":"所以你們一定要拿出大刀闊斧的精神講出實話讓我們台灣面對能源有問題能源供應有問題的真相你不要在這裡告訴我說沒有問題我們都準備好了你們準備好的東西在哪裡在哪裡到目前為止從早上到現在沒有一個講得出說我們能源問題有解決的方法在哪裡"},{"start":10475.492,"end":10493.02,"text":"我們還是有發電的機組會在未來的45年不斷的上來所以我們到2030年的時候我們會有產生900多萬千瓦的電然後我們實際需求只有700"},{"start":10494.281,"end":10497.063,"text":"那部長我問你喔就在你上任之前你知道桃園兩個月跳多少次電嗎?報告委員桃園跳電跟電母50幾次耶而且還在全台灣就只有備載容量3%就要全台大停電的狀態之下了所以部長還有主委我真心希望你們要認真的去考慮這個問題"},{"start":10520.322,"end":10541.112,"text":"而且呢是不是可以向本委員會提出說你們具體的因應方式是什麼你們具體的告訴我們說不用擔心缺電的理由是什麼而不是在告訴我說不用擔心我們絕對沒有問題這樣子的話我不只是本委員會沒有辦法相信甚至整個國際喔我們的競爭對手韓國還有"},{"start":10545.035,"end":10548.839,"text":"這個美國他們要不要投資他們都在觀察我們台灣的這個能源的這個政策那是不是可以有一些具體的說法說服本委員會也說服這些外媒讓他們知道說我們台灣的確是才有競爭力的"},{"start":10562.469,"end":10581.695,"text":"包括委員我們會把這個未來每一年增加多少然後這個會降多少然後從哪裡增加從什麼機組增加對包括說這些機組到底它的它蓋到什麼程度它會不會有其他的原因去影響它供電的這個程度呢這個我們會提供好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10589.103,"end":10597.625,"text":"謝謝 不知道每個人問的問題都一樣就期待你7月16號以前所公布的答案 謝謝接下來我們請邱智偉委員請做詢答謝謝主席 請這個速發部林次長請速發部林次長"},{"start":10620.499,"end":10641.483,"text":"市長這個賴總統在出席這個臺北電腦展他提出三項的政策目標是你們報告裡面寫的穩定供電穩定供電大概這部分主管機關是經濟部是台電請台電王總經理也一起來那個建制超級電腦那個市長"},{"start":10645.356,"end":10646.297,"text":"穩定供電這點,總統的要求有沒有?"},{"start":10659.062,"end":10673.936,"text":"在未來這幾年我們大概有十幾部機組正在興建或規劃中你要說中期短期一年中期3到5年長於10年你要做電力的規劃按照這個AI的這個產業的發展這個你我覺得這個"},{"start":10677.018,"end":10701.635,"text":"電力供應我最信任你啊!是!跟委員報告齁目前能不能穩定?我們趕工中光趕工中齁已經正在興建中的機組就有包括大潭7號到9號新達的1號到3號還有台中的1號到2號這麼多部的機組正在興建中你也來動用看看沒問題!沒問題啦!中期、長期都沒問題!還有包括抓標中的還有已經通過環評還沒有通過環評的短中長期為了AI的產業發展你也來動用看看沒問題!沒問題!請回座!"},{"start":10707.64,"end":10717.081,"text":"是這個建制超級電腦我們在2018這個我們誕生了台灣三對不對是那個時候我們投入多少的經費"},{"start":10720.13,"end":10740.951,"text":"我跟你講你不要東張西望我跟你講4.3億啦那時候是科技部提供給這個所謂這個國網中心4.3億在2018年建立這個台灣三嘛因為台灣三是台灣特有種嘛是他那時候的這個計算能量在全球排名是多少"},{"start":10744.091,"end":10768.822,"text":"因為這個是國科會的主管變成你們的業務我跟你講但是那個國網中心現在不是由數位部負責的現在他的這個計算比當時在2018年上線的時候是全球95名那這個建制的超級電腦是你的工作還是這個國華會的工作是國科會的工作國科會來請國科會"},{"start":10773.344,"end":10800.514,"text":"請國科會我剛剛講的數據您知道嗎我知道你都知道喔可是我好像問錯對象了喔不好意思難怪你這個這個你現在的農量啊在2024到今年年底你要到16 petaflop對不對到明年你要到100 petaflop到2028你要200 petaflop這種的這個超級電腦的算力啊"},{"start":10801.499,"end":10811.936,"text":"你在2018我們的計算能量是全球排名第95按照你的目標值你到2028才到200要投入多少經費"},{"start":10817.396,"end":10842.288,"text":"跟委員大概講一個數字我們最近有看過就是如果我們採用NVIDIA最新的如果要200 petaflop的話要一百多億嘛一百三十幾億那你是告訴我這個我剛提出的數據你的目標2028要到200 petaflop那這個你要建置這個算力提升算力要增加多少預算"},{"start":10843.72,"end":10866.409,"text":"就光電腦本身要一百三十幾億那當然你還要蓋Data CenterData Center裡面要有空調然後有一些其他的基礎設施那個還要另外三四十億所以加起來兩百億兩百億你到2028才提到提升到兩百Petal Flop 對不對是你那個虛擬的這個園區啊虛擬的園區本來是那個你們主委"},{"start":10871.656,"end":10880.285,"text":"有說的園區是虛擬的概念嗎?那個虛擬就是基本上是在寫軟體那個是那個速發部的主則你現在生態園區是虛擬的還是實體的?這個速發部"},{"start":10884.464,"end":10897.876,"text":"跟委員報告現在我們政府的那個工作職長的分工是這樣子就是說國發部國發會這邊是要負責那個有硬體跟軟體都是他們都是要負責這邊都有規劃那我們那個數發部主要是負責軟體那因為軟體產業這個特性是"},{"start":10904.102,"end":10930.993,"text":"因為在上下游產業之間並沒有實體貨物的運輸而且現在軟體人才大部分都是...所以我的感覺就是說數位發展部、國科會跟國發會好像大家沒有完全整合大家工作雖然有分工但是沒有有效整合所以包括國發會的報告你的微笑曲線是失衡的 對不對"},{"start":10932.697,"end":10956.31,"text":"在這個製造的部分是最底端然後這個前端的技術研發它的條件非常好但是智慧應用全球佔比是非常低的所以這部分你說智慧應用的部分這是軟體的部分軟體的部分是誰負責的軟體部分是速發部對啊你速發部速發部你要怎麼樣把目前的佔比低於1%要提升到什麼目標值"},{"start":10957.605,"end":10974.357,"text":"也沒有一個目標值你現況智慧應用全球佔比是低1%嘛所以微笑體驗是不均衡的微笑嘛那你要把這微笑變得更美好的微笑不能這樣好像歪嘴巴的微笑"},{"start":10975.518,"end":10997.32,"text":"你這微笑曲線你要把它提升到多少目標你這微笑曲線才會更漂亮各位委員報告我們現在有一個目標那我們原來在這個部分佔全國GDP的比重是1.2%我們希望把它成倍到2.4%的GDP那全球占比你要大概要達到多少目標如果是這樣的話全球占比也是要翻倍"},{"start":10998.311,"end":11023.81,"text":"反正就是從不到1%變成2%目前的短期目標是這樣長期我們當然希望它能夠佔30%以上所以你覺得現在的微效曲線是不是一個不均衡的微效曲線目前是不均衡所以我們才要大力的讓它均衡那尤其是抓到我們可以高速成長的地方所以在軟體的部分是速發部要負責的是的我們會一起共同做我們開過兩次會議了那個"},{"start":11028.482,"end":11044.822,"text":"建制超級電腦我繼續請教你剛剛說的到2028要到200 petaflop如果這個算力到2028你們達標在國際上的這個計算能力計算能量那個評比大概是多少"},{"start":11047.919,"end":11070.249,"text":"我請那個國防中心主任跟您報告報告委員 這個每年都在改變 照現在來看如果有200 petaflops大概可以列到前10名以內我們本來2018是全世界95名那如果2028到你們的目標200 petaflops可以到全球前10名"},{"start":11071.219,"end":11085.891,"text":"報告委員我稍微更正一下2018的時候台灣32號其實是排20名第20名是AI的MACHINE是這樣子嗎對你剛剛提的那個CPU MACHINE那你的目標2028前任到全球前10名在亞洲我們相對的這個競爭的國家比方韓國日本"},{"start":11088.527,"end":11109.407,"text":"他的這方面的這個計算能量有沒有超出台灣當然 兩個國家都超過台灣日本是多少日本他是超級電腦的大國所以他其實都是可以說上千的配套化所以這200會不會太未保守我個人意見是有一點但是我們現在已經在規劃擴充當中"},{"start":11111.289,"end":11126.798,"text":"所以你說你的目標就是建制超級電腦就是你的算力要提升嘛還有伺服器要增加嘛對不對你說所謂的重點就是伺服器跟這個算力那你算力他說這個市長就說這個國防中心主任就說這個太過於保守"},{"start":11127.698,"end":11154.298,"text":"那為什麼不能double到400呢?是是 跟委員報告因為政府的整體的科技預算還是有限制所以我們現在做的就是也是在尋求國際廠商的合作例如我們會跟國際這些大廠他既然要來台灣生產的話他是不是也應該要協助台灣建立超級電腦我們現在是朝這一方面那如果兩相加成的話應該會超過200 超過蠻多的我覺得這個目標實在太過於保守了你最起碼要double到400你看日本有多少?"},{"start":11155.936,"end":11169.22,"text":"日本現況是多少?五百到一千五百到一千?我們二零二八才到兩百欸那太過去了吧?那我們怎麼樣跟其他國家競爭呢?另外部長齁,最後這個壓軸請部長,經濟部部長我們請郭部長"},{"start":11177.95,"end":11203.919,"text":"部長我完全由你的報告來跟您請教這個經濟部在建立專屬生成式AI核心技術運用在台灣的製造跟服務業這個部分什麼時候可以完成我們的計畫應該是在這個你們要建立專屬生成式的AI核心技術這核心技術是什麼東西馬上會這個計畫馬上會送出來"},{"start":11207.162,"end":11235.435,"text":"那要花多少錢你們要建立這你們報告寫的我用你的報告來問你啊你要目標是要協助產業AI化產業包括傳統產業也包括中小企業對不對你要讓所有產業都能夠達到AI化所以你要建置我們自己專屬的AI核心技術那什麼時候會出來我們應該馬上今年會送出來但是我們大概要花兩億的這個預算"},{"start":11237.456,"end":11245.587,"text":"兩億就可以把這個生成式的AI因為我是最底層最底層的應用工程師兩億就可以讓所有產業讓它AI化"},{"start":11247.495,"end":11270.477,"text":"對 那是運用嘛 就是說一個它操作的訓練你講的還是太空泛 還是太抽象能夠更具體的把你們怎麼做 這個核心技術的內涵是什麼能夠達到預學效果 是不是可以有一個書面資料給我們然後你引進國際大廠 你目前有沒有口袋名單有有幾家目前有三家目前有三家"},{"start":11271.823,"end":11297.495,"text":"那我就不問你是哪三家有時候是機密問題另外最後一頁第三頁你要說你的具體的措施要透過驗證或代小方式來普及擴散然後建立產業導入AI指引這個部分你們船上條例也要修10-1對不對讓租稅優惠能夠調整這個部分我來幫忙"},{"start":11300.882,"end":11320.997,"text":"我來幫忙你加快速度把它送進來那你要怎麼樣建立這個產業導入AI的指引這個什麼時候會出來一樣我們這個應該是在這個一個月裡面應該可以把這個計畫送出來那你製造業的AI普及加速那服務業的AI有沒有可能普及"},{"start":11321.718,"end":11337.614,"text":"服務業也是一樣我一直覺得你們偏重在製造業那對於就是中小企業對於這服務業這如何讓他這個產業AI化這也是很重要服務業的話我們大概會在那個scan他的那個那個"},{"start":11338.174,"end":11364.722,"text":"所以一般坊間這些產業就說我們是重視製造業製造業裡面的高階或高科技產業傳統的製造業或中小型的製造業卻得不到政府的太多的關愛報告委員服務業或商業我們對盤點庫存或是銷售的都可以這個擴大宣傳讓這些中小型跟服務業知道說我們經濟部、政府幫他們做了哪些前瞻性的規劃"},{"start":11365.862,"end":11393.013,"text":"跟政策的作為﹐這個要廣為宣傳是好 謝謝好 謝謝好 接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢答卓鑫各位委員大家好"},{"start":11394.042,"end":11416.58,"text":"今天討論AI的主題臺北六月份天空都是在AI在飄我要特別深化我們的招委這個主題寫得好用詞非常精準為掌握生成式AI等關鍵的技術帶來產業的革命臺灣如何深化AI生態"},{"start":11417.765,"end":11446.372,"text":"充實AI人才與產業AI化，來促動我們台灣數位的一個轉型與應用AI的人才與產業AI化，來擴展我們產業的發展打造智慧的未來這是台灣兩個未來最重要經濟參觀的一個動力站今天莊委我特別稱讚你真的寫得好最重要"},{"start":11447.52,"end":11458.528,"text":"你厲害在哪裡?你把所有單位找過來不管經濟部、不管國安會、不管數位部、不管教育部、不管國安會因為我們的AI"},{"start":11461.266,"end":11481.571,"text":"這個產業化發展其實真的要做幾個單位通力的合作同心協力才有辦法打造打造我們未來的AI產業那今天我第一個要詢問的是誰我們臺電的王總經理你不曉得我把你請上來我們請臺電王總經理"},{"start":11490.334,"end":11509.102,"text":"黃總經理你好你好大家都很擔心缺點我曉得你壓力很大但是我認識你那麼久我相信這幾年以來你電力公司一定要有充足的電力有沒有信心有信心包括AI的一個發展"},{"start":11509.983,"end":11527.475,"text":"有,我們這一部分都在盤點我們可能要用電量很大,要規劃好你不要讓我們郭部長下台,要小心、要努力、加油好不好電一定足夠,是好,你可以請回座那第一個我要來請教我們郭部長我們再請經濟部郭部長"},{"start":11533.325,"end":11551.708,"text":"委員好部長好我請教一個這個比較沒有關心但是跟AI生存是未來發展有關心今天所有報紙都在講蓮花坑我們台版的晶片法案那軟體的話都為您享受到"},{"start":11553.29,"end":11569.684,"text":"經變化的一個優惠尤其蓮花哥所以代表台灣的IC設計那裡面說我們的政府只種硬的不種軟的那蓮花哥出來這個代表未來你很多生存式的應用裡面跟這個有關係喔"},{"start":11571.286,"end":11597.774,"text":"所以關於聯發科聯發科我們台新晶片的法案我相信要幫他解決他是台灣人之光在晶片領域裡面能跟美國幾個晶片的設計對抗的話他的成就實在不得了你要多協助你的看法是如何這部分我們會來幫忙真的要加強因為你未來"},{"start":11599.63,"end":11624.701,"text":"這個AI的軟體是非常重要重要的你就又再講你說AI這個產業我們可以在台灣吃五十年所以我們的AI的產業裡面軟體你要排名變成世界第二你有沒有信心軟體排名世界第二我想我們現在在半導體來講的話"},{"start":11628.101,"end":11651.232,"text":"這是你工作報告寫的不是我講的你不要忘了你可能忘了報告委員那個是工作報告裡面講的是IC設計世界第二不是IC設計IC設計美國人掌握在我們不可能說變成第二你那時的報告是講AI產業的那個生成那個應用的AI裡面的軟體"},{"start":11653.603,"end":11677.996,"text":"您的策略我都趴在旁邊你講過都忘記了要檢討一下好不好好這個你可以看你的報告那個我相信你講的沒有錯AI有兩個一個半導體一個生成式的AI就是運算力非常的重要那因為生成AI完成了以後它的應用那一端也是很複雜不是我們想像那麼簡單它還有各種參數來的"},{"start":11681.496,"end":11700.234,"text":"好不好,你加強努力那現在我要請我們國外委我們的劉志偉沒有問到的可以請回座我們請劉志偉我們問的話比較輕鬆部長回座指揮我給你請教一下我們行政院長的一個施政報告裡面"},{"start":11706.621,"end":11711.363,"text":"你知道他說要來創新、創業、變化、創新、你知道嗎?知道,1500億,我們4年後要達到每年1500億4年後要達到每年1500億"},{"start":11719.551,"end":11733.895,"text":"的創新創業投資4年要達到1500億每一年對好好有認真因為我特別看了這一段你的創新創業你說要創新創業以零生態你每一年要編1500億連續5年還是4年"},{"start":11743.258,"end":11754.924,"text":"是到第四年後每一年有1500億是到第四年還是從現在開始從現在開始第四年那逐年會增加是每一年1500億還是四年1500億到了第四年的時候每一年1500億你講得很模糊我聽不懂"},{"start":11762.488,"end":11778.8,"text":"是一年1500億,還是1500億?現在一年差不多700億,我們現在逐年增加,就每年多多少年多多少年?你給他依舊說的不一樣,你看他的施政報告,每年1500億,5年之內創造2萬個就業的機會"},{"start":11784.653,"end":11802.497,"text":"好嗎?再談一談,把疫情給救掉,繼續為我們台灣做出貢獻,好不好?這一點很重要,我跟您請教,那個,世衛部,我來請回座,世衛部是誰?"},{"start":11814.813,"end":11826.767,"text":"現在可能跟你們國外會跟經濟部有關係剛剛你們講如果要開發一個生成式的AI剛剛我是聽到哪一個部大概講說200億台幣"},{"start":11830.637,"end":11858.686,"text":"報告委員,如果要做那個大型語言模型的話要開發一個生成式AI大型語言模型的話一千億台幣大概都不夠你是衛部的處長,你講的就實在所以你講的那幾百億台幣,那個人手是AI主權台灣既然是要做成AI生態關鍵的一個地區你曉得,一個生成式的AI"},{"start":11860.694,"end":11887.564,"text":"要做到像美國的輝達、微軟、Google、臉書的話還有OpenAI你曉得最起碼多少起跳50億美金起跳那還是普通的如果要做好了好大概100億美金所以我現在跟國安會主委、經濟部長這個是基本的所以要投資很大你要當為一個關鍵核心要帶動台灣的經濟成長"},{"start":11890.387,"end":11917.065,"text":"不要那麼小氣你去看他們我得到資訊最少50億美金做得好百億美金台灣要把這個起碼錢要花下去當為你一個訓練的中心我們有國際的水準不然你會被那幾個大公司控制死掉台灣永遠掌握在人家的手中也不能達成像我們經濟部長不是IC軟體"},{"start":11918.862,"end":11945.429,"text":"你的報告裡面是講關於AI未來的軟體裡面我們要進出我們不好意思搶美國但是你說排名第二我覺得你這個策略也是對的所以各位官員你們這幾個部最起碼50億起跳做得好要100億美金我是告訴大家不是我們想像的那麼容易好不好"},{"start":11948.29,"end":11964.228,"text":"請回座今天討論到很多的AIAI的人才非常的重要現在你們真的我相信部長你在產業界都了解"},{"start":11965.599,"end":11988.638,"text":"那個劉子瑞你也都了解那美國大公司來那個薪水非常的高啊!咱台灣出名啊!咱是為人做家咧!講到台灣人是打工的咧!咱這裡知道這大公司來當然它的研發信息設在台灣我們都非常歡迎但是人才一定要教育"},{"start":11990.021,"end":12017.04,"text":"這個人才培養非常的重要像以前的QICOM我們7億美金本來要賠償的單位投資來他把薪水拉的高其他台積電我講了一次台積電去到他研發科的研發科的就開始他所有那些IC設計軟體產業一定造成這樣不要把台灣電工力很高跟世界每一個國家要合作"},{"start":12017.961,"end":12040.502,"text":"你被掏空都不曉得啊所謂台灣的人才自己培養、自己用不要說此材什麼用啊經用還是經用此材你們不要有這種想法這個是降生的世界啊我們好不容易訓練這麼多的人才出來怎麼隨隨便便可以流出去啊我希望你們特別注意"},{"start":12042.011,"end":12068.193,"text":"再來要運用外來的人才暫時我們所得稅那大概都超過五百萬以上的現在你看Amelia在招人都起碼幾百萬台幣以上五百萬的很多阿你扣稅40%所以這個地方特別注意一下人才如何跟國際交流都加強一下因為這個都是要硬算力的人才非常非常的重要謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12072.21,"end":12084.795,"text":"謝謝我們陳昌明委員貼心的提醒謝謝接下來我們請賴瑞榮委員請做詢答那麼我們中午不休息一直到今天會議結束謝謝請發言好 謝謝昭偉我先請那個劉朱偉跟郭部長我們請兩位"},{"start":12093.515,"end":12119.31,"text":"主委跟部長辛苦了總統其實在6月4號的臺北國際電腦展其實有提到未來的三大的發展策略是把台灣打造成AI島我先請教兩位國務部長就是AI這件事情其實經濟部也做了相當長一段時間那現在投入多少資源未來一定要投入多少資源來爭取讓台灣成為AI島甚至更多的國際大廠來到台灣來投資"},{"start":12121.216,"end":12141.879,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是積極的在對國外的大廠來請他們來台灣投資那麼研發中心或者數據中心那剛才我想順便在這邊補充一下我們在邀請國際大廠來台灣的時候因為我們現在的人才就可能剛才陳委員他在講的"},{"start":12143.46,"end":12167.241,"text":"就是怕擔心這樣子所以我們現在改變改變的就是說他要來台灣如果每一家公司要1000位人才我們都希望他帶進50%的人才進來這部分都是由我自己在溝通所以我們現在目前大概談了三家就是要來台灣設數據中心的那麼他應該是不會發生來我們台灣搶人才的這個現象"},{"start":12168.382,"end":12197.322,"text":"哪三家可以講嗎這個是保密那個可不可以請司長也補充一下吧我們過去來花的錢跟未來一定要投入的錢好不好我們應該花了相當多的經費了啦司長要不要補充一下我們如果是連包含外商補助的錢的話幫一些技術的一些研發外商的一些補助的話超過100億以上超過100億了啦包括所以現在在進行當中不管是輝達或是AMD都是啦政府都投入了錢"},{"start":12197.882,"end":12221.238,"text":"就像當年在半導體產業我們也投入相當多的資源然後引進來台灣這個也在做部長我也希望未來持續好不好就是說一方面當然是國家資源但我們希望把AI島建立起來的話就需要投入更多的資源我們希望這個持續來進行那再來問一下國發會主委好不好國發會未來我們再請主委主委對包括國發基金包括一定要投入多少資源來做這件事情"},{"start":12222.319,"end":12242.511,"text":"國家基金目前我們是已經同意目前是同意速發部我們投入第一個是100億的創業創新基金專門給AI的部分那另外其實我們另外之前有有Funding這個經濟部大概100億那現在用了7億還有90多億所以投入200億的一個"},{"start":12243.912,"end":12264.143,"text":"之外我們今年也匡列國發基金的投資可以有到188億所以這些都可以拿來運用那其中專注AI的至少有100億如果我們要落實這樣的AI導的概念的話事實上當然政府的投入重要的然後看國發基金還有報告基金或相關資源都是重要的一環我們希望來整個匡列出來"},{"start":12265.484,"end":12279.974,"text":"那我要提醒的是這個到現在為止其實全台灣當然是不缺電但是其實北部電力上是有缺口的電力上有缺口南部的在如果沒有更新那個統計其實有470萬的一個缺口北部"},{"start":12281.475,"end":12304.097,"text":"臺灣的南部的部分,高雄是有,我也講過很多次,高雄用電60%,40%是中宋北宋那現在還在,包括新達跟大嶺燃氣機組都還在興建那我要講的是說,就是不斷的提醒這件事情,區域均衡發展上不要讓南部在電力上面不斷的供應的同時的時候,產業的聚落都形成在北部"},{"start":12304.858,"end":12326.638,"text":"所以現在包括大家在談的很多不管是從輝達或者是AMD的部分都在談的這個研發中心的投資的時候那我們希望這些思考不要比如說像輝達現在傳起來有可能大家考慮的點是臺北、台南、高雄但我們希望他能夠更清楚的知道我剛剛講到政府其實是有給予補助"},{"start":12328.959,"end":12353.505,"text":"這個補貼的那我們希望這樣在引導的過程中也要不斷讓他們知道說一方面政府希望南北兩大核心的發展這個AI生態系統是應該南北聚落多去完成它這個才是北部相對容易完成但是南部會比較辛苦一點但是也就是因為這樣而政府要施加一些力道包括電力的部分當南部這麼充分供應電力說AI也是相當耗掉相當多的電力的時候那更應該往"},{"start":12354.825,"end":12377.73,"text":"南部來移動。」我先問一下部長同意這樣的看法嗎?報告委員 我想我們經濟部的立場就是所有的外商要來台灣我們都歡迎到達哪一個城市我們尊重他的選擇不過我在這邊跟委員報告廠商他在選擇的時候不會只考慮水跟電他考慮的是他可以找到多少人"},{"start":12378.672,"end":12404.686,"text":"所以水、電、人才包括場地都是重要的一些句對但是這個東西一定要不斷的長期的去做如果我們不有意識去處理的話所有的東西基本北部的聚落是容易形成的所以我還講的是既然國家有資源下去的時候南部的聚落也形成的時候但我會請蘇發波為什麼我們現在講南北兩大AI的聚落也就是這樣希望他能夠有一個形成好的一個聚落的方式"},{"start":12405.126,"end":12431.339,"text":"那如果只是順著所有的話那基本上你可以預期基本上多數都會在台北所以我還希望說這件事情部長要很有意識的那我也知道現在經濟部有一些計畫在進行當中我也希望部長能夠承諾既有進行的計畫不要去改變跟影響到好嗎我們不會去影響既有進行的計畫進行這種計畫務必要去落實來完成是的好那接下來要請教一下主委因為時間非常有限"},{"start":12432.279,"end":12446.68,"text":"主委認同我這樣的看法嗎就國發基金的投入之後我也希望南北兩大那我知道現在國發會跟數發部有在進行一些南北的這個AI的生態系統AI生態園區的這樣的一個概念"},{"start":12448.482,"end":12467.694,"text":"主委,朝這個方向來規劃,讓實體園區讓南北形成兩大聚落,主委同意這樣的看法嗎?是的,均衡台灣是總統的政策,所以我們會落實這個政策實體園區其實是個政策嘛,我要講啦,當時我知道有一些壓力之後又變成虛擬,如果走為虛擬的話,那其實就是空的嘛"},{"start":12468.334,"end":12488.05,"text":"其實它一定要是實體而且台灣的兩大聚落必然是南北兩大聚落北部以台北為核心包括到新竹這一塊一定是一個聚落南部一定是以高雄跟台南為核心的一個聚落而現在不管是從亞灣或者是台南的這個南科的園區等等其實都看得出來其實已經有聚落形成了包括"},{"start":12489.271,"end":12506.925,"text":"臺積電的一個進駐等我認為那個聚落已經形成那現在是要政府更加大那個力道那我也希望在實體園區的部分國發會未來能夠大力支持這個實體園區南北兩大聚落完成主委可以嗎?可以可以好 這個請主委那個啦好 兩位請坐我接下來請教一下速發部好嗎?副主委啦請回座我們請速發部"},{"start":12513.756,"end":12538.699,"text":"次長請教一下現在的這個南北的AI生態園區的規劃的方向目前是怎麼樣就如同剛才郭部長所講的其實我們在發展科技的時候最重要是人才對於軟體業來講尤其是這樣子那軟體業的主要的對於那個廠商的設廠的那個應該說設公司主要的考量不是在土地跟廠房而是在於人才"},{"start":12539.259,"end":12553.845,"text":"而人才總是會選擇他覺得最好的地方他最想住的地方去居住我們看美國的那個軟體產業的興起其實也是走這條路那至於說這個聚落的形成我請教一下南北的AI生態園區的設施這個持續在進行當中嗎什麼時候會把它規劃出來"},{"start":12559.059,"end":12585.018,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們的數發部負責的是軟體那軟體的尤其軟體產業這個地方我們並目前重點是在於生態而不在於園區那國發會這邊會有整體考量因為國發會這邊會那這件事情是由數發部主導還是由國發會來主導就是如果包含硬體的話是由國發部主導如果是單單軟體的部分的話是由數發部來主導那是由誰整體的總的規劃是由誰來他一定有一個還是主委講一下好了好不好"},{"start":12590.245,"end":12608.777,"text":"整體總的部分我們現在正在是我們這邊在主導那整個均衡在北、中、南都會我希望規劃出來的方案給我們一份參考好不好那我也希望國發基金再大力支持這樣的一個計畫好的再不影響那個保密原則我們會送過去好"},{"start":12610.178,"end":12627.136,"text":"然後再來我也要提醒其實我們現在的包括半導體學院這個不管是中山大學的甚至清大包括陽明交大的部分其實都在高雄也設置了這些半導體學院我覺得善加運用這樣的一個優勢"},{"start":12628.217,"end":12648.613,"text":"那我要講的是其實人才的聚落其實一定是不斷的政府有刻意去引導教育部的次長在這邊我也希望持續的支持南部的這個人才的一個養成的部分不要讓南部永遠只是作為工業不管是電力或者是石化或者是這個港口所需的東西都不斷的供應而已但是在於"},{"start":12649.874,"end":12673.968,"text":"新產業的形成或人才聚落的形成的時候反倒缺乏力道我認為那個對於整個南北的均衡發展是不利的我希望這件事情國發會主委還有各位部長、次長要不斷地放在心上我認為這個才是執政的一個重要的價值位置都會來來去去但是未來怎麼樣讓台灣留下一個均衡發展讓人才能夠留在每個地方事才事所的發展我認為這個才是執政上最重要的價值"},{"start":12674.688,"end":12703.2,"text":"好不好 與各位共勉啦好 謝謝我們一定會在北中發展均衡還好主委你講北中南我剛才聽了心驚膽跳一直南北南北AI生態園區我們台中跟南跟北都一樣都符合最好的條件北中南才能夠均衡還好你講到這一點好 因為你有答應我台中一定要納入 謝謝接下來我們請賴司保委員請做詢問 謝謝"},{"start":12709.797,"end":12715.861,"text":"謝謝主席一切各位先進有請經濟部長、郭部長我們再請郭部長委員好部長你好你上台之後不斷地說不缺電不缺電我就給你看一張圖這是台電的圖備轉容量"},{"start":12740.748,"end":12751.314,"text":"在過去已經有7天低於10%了最近的6月9號今天是6月12號6月9號備轉容量9.49備轉容量284.5萬千瓦"},{"start":12764.983,"end":12776.25,"text":"夏天還沒有到勒前幾天我們梅雨季節天氣很涼快用電來掃勒你已經有7次低於10%我就問你你說不確定那為什麼你們對台塑的賣鳥一號機還要給它延長一年勒"},{"start":12789.997,"end":12802.586,"text":"他是藍美的他把他蓋成藍氣體的結果你們就是怕沒電60萬、千萬趕快賣掉再延一年到明年底你要不要回答一下報告委員這個低於10%大概就是這麼一次"},{"start":12810.68,"end":12833.477,"text":"那我們的意思就是說這個在10%左右這個因為還可以容許幾個機組他如果有狀況的時候這個是這個這些備載的狀況這樣所以應該不至於在這個情況之下會跳馬上夏天喔夏天日和現在超過30度喔來我就納悶了納得悶了部長聽好喔"},{"start":12840.373,"end":12850.28,"text":"河山廠的1號機裝置容量有多少?你告訴我台電應該知道,打發試一下98萬千萬我這裡數字95萬,將近100萬這個東西我們法都給你改了讓你可以申請不要前面5年結果你後來丟棄了你原來講河河山修完完畢以後就可以"},{"start":12867.363,"end":12867.383,"text":"演繹"},{"start":12898.359,"end":12923.329,"text":"你還有意思說你希望能夠做滿四年你知道哪一個經濟部長做滿四年你告訴我我是回答說一個任期是四年你查一查那跟院長一齊院長沒有做過四年的除了蘇貞昌第二次會過過去從2000年以後的院長有的一年多賴清德兩年左右"},{"start":12924.4,"end":12938.412,"text":"跟院長一起的啊這個啊,你講這個話要坐滿四年有一點類似喔這句話沒有很老聽啦但是我的感覺就這樣我的feel就這樣叫青蛙打哈欠好大的口氣你知道嗎跟著院長走啊院長沒有四年的除了蘇貞昌是很奇怪的剛好這樣讓他轉告幾乎沒有四年的有的一年有的兩年"},{"start":12953.356,"end":12979.893,"text":"跟著院長走你說你要做四年這代表你也不進入狀況然後你現在我們感覺到是SRF你怎麼突然又發一個可以推薦函呢你們可能又發給桃園那三家可以進推進這個推進它進桃園觀音呢桃殼呢為什麼你要發我請教你為什麼你要發"},{"start":12981.093,"end":12995.945,"text":"這一部分我們不是主管單位桃園才是主管單位你還被罰了我沒有罰我們只是他來這個場來訴願然後我們透過訴願委員會然後把他退回去這樣他是訴願委員會決定的不是經濟部決定的"},{"start":13008.57,"end":13031.923,"text":"書院委員就是你經濟部的底下的沒有沒有沒有那個報告委員這個書院委員會一共有11位委員其實底下都是經濟部的官員沒有經濟部的官員只有兩位其他的九位是外面的學者跟專家主要是你們主導我跟你講我們的立法委員國民黨的立法委員有一個將軍陳永康上將他推了"},{"start":13037.301,"end":13061.458,"text":"兵推他講了一個概念不要再擔心老共打我們能夠撐多久啊什麼之類的重要是一打仗台灣能不能撐電能不能撐兩天48小時醫療能不能撐48小時我就去詢問你我發現國安局長問了他說你才有答案能不能撐48小時就打仗的時候撐48小時供電無虞請你回答"},{"start":13065.325,"end":13087.646,"text":"這一部分我不是專家我沒有幫我回答打仗的時候打仗的時候打仗的時候我想這個是由國家調度的不是經濟部可以調度的我剛才去國安局局長問他說經濟部管的要經濟部長回答所以我來這裡問你那這個如果以電網的韌性我們是可以的"},{"start":13089.468,"end":13117.587,"text":"兩48小時撐得住是撐得住是因為電很重要喔電如果撐不住的話你醫療就有問題血漿就有問題冷鏈就有問題沒有問題你參加過兵推沒有兵推沒有沒有有機會參加兵推請你特別注意這一關現在大家都覺得說兩岸打仗怎麼樣其實兩岸打仗電最重要電的韌性電最重要我"},{"start":13119.202,"end":13142.015,"text":"這是臺電董事館告訴你的啦我請你回去study一下好好做功課啦不要張大口下做死年如果你這樣子完全沒有自己的一個mindset然後隨波逐流這樣你是做不死的啦真的我都覺得你shake it shake it好好加油吧謝謝委員"},{"start":13144.677,"end":13155.467,"text":"剛剛賴司保委員講的是推薦文你們回答的是蘇院委員會的結果所以雞同鴨講還是要給賴司保委員說明清楚 謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢答10分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":13167.25,"end":13173.859,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的正午江蘇黨官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和經濟部郭部長請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":13181.704,"end":13201.888,"text":"主委好部長好來先請教部長部長最近你很紅我們提到AI它的應用跟生產耗能大不只它的製造它的硬體的運作跟冷卻用電需求量很大那這裡有一個綠色的民主制指出我們台灣到2023的工業耗電佔了55%那到了這個台積電它的半耗力產業到2021年到2030年要增加兩倍多是不是這樣子"},{"start":13210.168,"end":13238.759,"text":"那這麼大的數量我們來看一下當然是這麼多的半導體產業台積電要蓋7座3奈米預估到2030年台積電用電占全台六分之一經濟部有把握嗎有有把握好那你還告訴他一個好消息因為這個各縣市首長都在搶回答你說沒有關係沒有關係2030年至少還有10座的資料中心要建置對不對大家趕快去分那請問一下這10座資料中心耗不耗能用不用電"},{"start":13239.907,"end":13259.57,"text":"耗能與用電那好 那請教一下那就是為了滿足未來半導體製造還有人工智慧的硬體運作及冷卻需求你們有對未來的用電需求做了評估了嗎有那也知道要怎麼樣去把目前的供電提高到未來的滿足對未來的需求有做了一個計畫了嗎有做這樣的這個假設了好 那我就開始來問一下了"},{"start":13260.771,"end":13286.038,"text":"2030年您是說不會缺電除非明年起AI用電暴增我這個不太清楚去年我們國家台灣大概用了2821度多的電那其中的再生能源占了大概267億多大概占比大概9%是這樣子那請問到了2030年你預估台灣的用電需求要多少2030年台灣需要用到多少電我聽說是3400億度是這樣嗎"},{"start":13288.96,"end":13313.699,"text":"數字正確吧是那這當中的綠電要多少綠電需求我們的規劃是30%30%大概就是408億度的電好那從不到300億度要增大到400億度那怎麼來呢我們往下看那目前國際企業要求RE100供應內要100%的綠能那這其中的綠能有1、2、3、4、5你覺得台灣都有具備嗎"},{"start":13316.041,"end":13324.624,"text":"目前生智能是比較少的有潛力風光不錯水利在發展當中那有包含核電嗎"},{"start":13326.94,"end":13354.69,"text":"R100R100沒有包含所以其實大家要去關心的未來因應台灣的產業的外銷需求我們需要的綠電不包含核電英文過第三次了接下來那請問你估計國際企業在台灣建制數據中心及高科技產業的廠商要合乎R100的再生能源需求未來的綠電供應足夠了嗎你如何來提高這些綠電滿足他們的需求報告委員經過我們的盤算是足夠的足夠那有什麼手段嗎"},{"start":13356.311,"end":13376.415,"text":"我們會把綠電需求的廠商我們就給他綠電那不需要綠電的廠商我們就給他其他的綠電綠電不夠賣目前那要買綠電買不到那目前有一個說法說1000度的綠電被台階拿走900度了中小企業買不到為什麼"},{"start":13378.335,"end":13405.581,"text":"這是在過去啦那報告委員這是我來了以後我們現在馬上要成立一個綠電平台是所以我想這些中小企業都買得到好 那我們來往下看其實呢大廠購電的合約可以讓風光業者、風電業者去融資這您知道吧目前光電、風電它需要很大的融資嘛是所以這些購電契約它可能要用專業融資你知道為什麼中小企業拿不到這個購電契約嗎因為銀行不同意貸款那怎麼解決"},{"start":13408.638,"end":13421.013,"text":"我封電廠我要跟銀行融資嘛我拿上市會公司購電契約我可以拿去做專案融資中小企業來跟我買電打的契約沒有用怎麼辦這部分我想我們經濟部會來處理我想我們會給他一些"},{"start":13425.799,"end":13444.711,"text":"他可以他也可以賣給我們會可能會去撮合一下所以你們希望用電價分級的方式來處理是這個目的嗎是最近就是說你們就買綠電、一般電、低碳電分開來需要綠電的去買你中小企業就算沒有辦法去跟風電業者取得購電契約你都可以透過這個平台來購買是不是這樣意思是的"},{"start":13445.171,"end":13472.194,"text":"好 那就要明白的說出來 不然大家搞不清楚為什麼店家要分級是看我家的用電多寡還是用什麼方式好 往下看所以現在來請教我們國發會的主委我們風光發電機的建設性我們供應機載用電是不是要輕能輕能是我們的一部分一部分 儲能的部分輕能很重要對好 那你目前台灣的輕能除了儲能之外還有待發展的空間各部會怎麼去做"},{"start":13474.637,"end":13494.334,"text":"我們目前除了這個儲能的部分以外我們其實跟中研院現在也會跟他有一些計畫做來練習的發展那另外其實我們最近也在探尋地熱因為菲律賓就已經有一點多Gigawatt已經在運轉的地熱所以這些都是多元力的人是我們現在在探尋的方向"},{"start":13494.534,"end":13518.588,"text":"您說得很好,多元力能這是我搜尋到的上一頁包括電解海水去置氫包括把天然氣轉成綠氫或藍綠氫以及我們要燃料電池要來作為我們的儲能設備很重要的一個基礎,是不是這樣?是的所以國科也要盤點這些技術了,是嗎?是的好,最後所以未來氫能的發展和技術補助要從基礎設施切入有沒有大幅的擴大民生需求有沒有具體的計畫?"},{"start":13520.169,"end":13537.279,"text":"目前我們這個部分因為它的成本比較高我們還是在實驗階段但是只是預備否未來比較長期的發展好 最後再請郭部長請經濟部能夠盤點未來國際企業及台廠需求就符合R1-100再生能源供給是否足夠"},{"start":13537.859,"end":13562.398,"text":"提出一個符合R100增增能源的商業模式評估。」可以嗎?可以就是商業模式我剛剛講到了小企業買不到電你有商業模式怎麼樣讓他買得到綠電第二個請國發會研議未達成2050淨零碳…對不起淨寫錯了能源結構的轉化行政院推動汽能產業的部會分工部會有分工可以提出來評估後給本席嗎?好沒問題好謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":13565.492,"end":13573.018,"text":"接下來我們請張智倫委員、張智倫、張智倫委員我們請陳沛宇委員請發言10分鐘 謝謝4分鐘喔4分鐘好 謝謝主席有請國發會主委還有經濟部長 謝謝主席我感覺我身分清曉好"},{"start":13591.279,"end":13615.892,"text":"請兩位謝謝那部長好那主委好部長我之前已經跟您請教過關於中小企業的部分那我今天要繼續針對中小企業在AI這個面向要拜託國發會跟經濟部在你們所有所有人都只提到黃仁勛所有人都提到Supermicro的時候大家不要忘記了台灣的經濟主力是所有的中小企業這件事情我相信部長跟主委一定有放在心上對嗎"},{"start":13617.827,"end":13646.229,"text":"在賴總統的競選政見當中他有特別提到一定要在走向人工智慧島上的這個路上不要忘記台灣的傳統產業還有相關的服務業所以今天我雖然只有4分鐘但是我想要快速跟兩位請教在你們日後的政策規劃當中或是眼前已經在分配的資源當中是不是有協助到中小企業深化AI生態系還有相關AI轉型這件事情不要讓中小企業在這整個"},{"start":13647.11,"end":13669.066,"text":"在這個浪潮當中他們已經開始感到恐懼跟焦慮不知道政府將即將如何協助他們好嗎來下一頁我想要談的是傳統產業有非常多的樣態而且樣態上他們所需要的AI的協助截然的不同但是經濟部跟國發會你們在盤點相關政策跟資源的時候目前是不是已經開啟跟相關中小企業或是傳統產業的團體對話了呢已經開始了嗎"},{"start":13672.649,"end":13677.319,"text":"還是只有跟所謂的大廠、大公司、國際大廠碰過面?」我想要積極地問一下"},{"start":13679.772,"end":13706.606,"text":"我們這邊是有跟一些中南部的業者開始在溝通了解他們的需求這個是中南部的業者嗎?可能是單一?都是中小企業這個我覺得沒有問題主要是均衡台灣是總統政策包含產業的均衡所以我們對中小企業目前是有在明確的規劃但是聽起來好像沒有更具體的東西那經濟部這邊呢?報告委員經濟部這邊是先了解這些業者他們的需求"},{"start":13707.466,"end":13715.752,"text":"那因為這個智慧化、智能化我想我們瞭解他的需求我才會針對他們的需求下去講那我們就離開科技我們來回到所謂傳統產業或者是服務產業這件事情那我就先講出結論好了我希望經濟部跟國發會必須要積極"},{"start":13727.099,"end":13740.676,"text":"整合你們必須要一起去想如何促進在地產業升級因為這也可以積極協助他們缺工的問題我相信兩位來自業界一定非常清楚傳統產業面臨缺工的困境最後提供策略性的協助我就先講結論我們辦公室之後會積極跟國發會和經濟部討論"},{"start":13743.839,"end":13772.268,"text":"這個相關的Discovery紀錄片裡面談到台灣的創新能量非常的強他們表現在智慧機械上這件事情我相信你們來自產業一定明白那目前的困境就是台灣這些中小企業有沒有辦法承擔支付這樣的研發經費或者是他們有沒有辦法找到相關的研究單位協助他們去客製化他們的需求我相信一定有困境那例如說我時間有限我就不再舉例我以我在教育文化委員會最理解我們之前在推動的一個法案就是營養午餐法"},{"start":13773.588,"end":13788.682,"text":"營養午餐產業大量的缺工而且很多中年的或者是已經靠近60歲70歲的很多阿姨還有叔叔伯伯在現場他們要搬運他們要煮食然後他們有非常多細緻的工作有沒有機會透過協作機器人去解決"},{"start":13789.162,"end":13815.018,"text":"我相信是有的台灣也有很多產業我們就不一一點名這些公司我想你們都非常清楚所以我要說有沒有機會你們真的針對不同業種的需求去理解他們去傾聽他們甚至幫他們找到適當的資源因為你們要跟大公司對話真的非常非常容易可是我們非常多中小企業的團體跟朋友如同您說的在中南部的很多業者我相信他們現在非常非常的焦慮那我就不再一一舉例了我想要問"},{"start":13815.618,"end":13844.398,"text":"目前我們可以提供給他們的我覺得是技術上他們非常不熟悉相關技術還有相關的成本他們到底要花出多少錢能夠得到多少效益他們也是沒有把握的所以我這邊想要拜託國發會跟經濟部可不可以協助他們在三個部分一個是專業的顧問服務第二個是經費補助第三個是我們有沒有機會協助他們產業升級創新發展讓他們持續在台灣這個島上做自己喜歡而且做自己擅長的中小企業這件事情不要被AI的浪潮甩在後面"},{"start":13845.829,"end":13872.455,"text":"謝謝委員的這個方向指導 謝謝所以你要不要多說一點就是我們會按照這樣的去做好 那我相信相關的政策我們日後會有機會再討論那國發會這邊呢剛剛在不同的委員的質詢當中你們提到有100億、100億、188億有非常多的經費都已經開始要動用下去了那在中小企業相關AI產業升級人才這些照顧上呢"},{"start":13873.648,"end":13892.873,"text":"這個部分我們也會來強化再跟委員回覆好,我們希望有沒有機會在一個月內我們跟國發會跟經濟部開啟相關會議跟討論有機會在一個月內嗎?一個月應該可以可以,國發會可以,那經濟部呢?可以好,可以,謝謝,謝謝主席,謝謝部長跟主委,謝謝好,謝謝接下來我們請林一錦委員請做詢問"},{"start":13908.135,"end":13916,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長、國科會林副主委、教育部葉次長好 請以上四位"},{"start":13920.762,"end":13941.552,"text":"我們台灣需要民主AI的創新需要在AI的使用上牢記民主自由不歧視、不侵犯他人人格權的精神這是昨天卓榮泰院長在院會答詢的時候對我國AI發展期許的回答本席今天想在經濟委員會中強調我國在AI產業的發展除了產業聚落的群聚效應"},{"start":13947.295,"end":13976.073,"text":"以外以及技術持續的提升．我想必須要留意的就是開發者以及使用者的人文社科素養要發展以人為本的AI本席上週在教育委員會質詢國科會的時候就提醒國科會在Tide的生成式AI對話引擎的時候要避免歧視跟偏見的出現並且要在AI監管的法制作業上建立"},{"start":13976.693,"end":13995.062,"text":"好智慧財產權的完善保護．既然智慧財產權的業務是經濟部主管．那就要請問部長．AI生成的創作．在智慧財產權的保護上．有什麼需要法規補強的部分．或者說哪些情況．又不應該落入智慧財產權的保護的範疇呢．部長"},{"start":13998.492,"end":14024.193,"text":"這部分的話我想我們會研擬我目前是沒有收到這方面的關心所以我想我們會回去以後會來討論這件事情再給委員一個報告包括入納入智慧財產權法規的補強跟哪些範疇是不用的好那我想這幾週AI的旋風席捲了全台那不少委員都希望AI的產業園區能在各自委員的有"},{"start":14024.893,"end":14045.178,"text":"有擁有科學園區的城市裡頭在這裡我也想給予經濟部長跟國發會的主委一些建議目前擴建中的南科三期臺南市政府目前有發布新聞稿指出我們這個地方都市機能、交通建設、水電的供應都非常的充分、無虞"},{"start":14045.618,"end":14062.628,"text":"那台南市相關的上下游的產業垂直的產業的整合也非常完整具備半導體整個企業發展最好的利基所以台南市政府跟我們所有台南市民都歡迎半導體跟高科技的廠商來台南設廠所以請問經濟部長還有國發部的主委還有國科會的副主委南科三期的AI生態系這個建構是否可能那產業的AI化"},{"start":14074.975,"end":14094.184,"text":"可不可能在南科來加速實現?我想我們如果能夠把這些這個區域的環境打造成AI最佳的環境的話應該業者都會去就是說花若盛開蝴蝶自來"},{"start":14095.53,"end":14112.105,"text":"因為南科確實現在整個半導體產值已經超越竹科這個副主委應該非常清楚所以我想這部分再請多參照一下台南這塊沃土那我另外最後是想請教教育部"},{"start":14113.206,"end":14115.748,"text":"讓AI的開發者以及使用者具備相關的人文社科素養希望科學的發展快速之外AI的發展能兼顧人文社會關懷的基本素養"},{"start":14132.099,"end":14157.18,"text":"那未來教育現場會大量的使用AI那這也應該是個趨勢所以想要請教一下說有沒有把握在日新月異的這個AI發展的浪潮下我們可以推出相對應的教育政策提供正確的AI使用的這個教育同時卓友院長期待的民主AI的創新這個概念未來會不會融入在教育裡面那目前的規劃如何?次長"},{"start":14158.155,"end":14187.835,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是說這個我們目前其實都有在加強這個資訊素養跟倫理的課程我們想這件事是非常非常重要就是他在用科技的時候怎麼樣這些用科技要用在好的地方那另外其實在中小學這部分我們在8月底的時候會公布這個數位教學指引的2.0這裡面其實就會有談到就是說幫他數位的還有AI的這些很多這些關鍵的資訊素養數位素養這些孩子們應該要懂的然後老師要怎麼樣去教育小孩子"},{"start":14189.276,"end":14215.711,"text":"從小養成到一個正確的觀念他長大的時候再用這技術就不會歪掉最後一小題我們如何讓AI的人才留在學界而非在一窩蜂的湧進產業界因為學界如果人才有的話我們才能培育下一代所謂的人才培育所以請問次長你對於這部分一窩蜂要湧進產業界你有什麼解方嗎"},{"start":14216.97,"end":14242.003,"text":"我想這個大概就是還是要透過這個攬柴跟這個彈性心智那另外我想這個其實AI的這個師資的培育其實我想特別是在高教裡面的這些老師這其實也是我們未來可能透過這博士班這邊很多的一些力度下去讓更多的同學有志於學術的可以往這邊走這是我們也是現在在做的事情好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":14247.017,"end":14252.081,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請羅明財委員羅明財羅明財委員不在現場我們請蔡育宇委員請做詢問好謝謝主席那我們是不是請國發會留主委好我們請主委"},{"start":14276.837,"end":14288.862,"text":"委員午安各位好 嗯 主委那因為今天這個議題是這個AI的議題那這幾個禮拜來大概整個台灣都是席選了這個AI的這個浪潮齁"},{"start":14290.684,"end":14310.072,"text":"事實上今天也是討論了包括針對AI的產業應用甚至人才培育講了很多我想先就教主委就AI的這個產業公部門部分有哪些是公部門可以開始來採用AI的技術"},{"start":14312.391,"end":14338.066,"text":"跟委員報告公部門很早就開始使用生成式AI做一些資料的分析整理跟查詢所以國科會也因為這樣它有因為它這也有安全跟效率兩個構面安全面國科會有提出了一個使用生成式AI的參考指引確保在資料上的安全那另外在政府的應用部分目前是速發部有一個智慧政府辦公室專門在做"},{"start":14340.668,"end":14363.405,"text":"這個整個公部門數位化的跟智慧化的部分就說公部門部分當然是用生成式AI嘛那這包括說未來很多公部門的一些政策的制定那甚至說一些包括說可能來立法院來做的最簡單的這樣的一些報告是不是都未來會用AI然後來做基礎的一些架構"},{"start":14364.713,"end":14380.088,"text":"是的 各單位就我的我們上次稍微大家聊了一下幾乎每個部會都在使用中每個單位都在使用然後速發部也特別政府特別成立了智慧政府辦公室專門在推動我們整個智慧政府的發展"},{"start":14381.21,"end":14397.268,"text":"所以現在公部門的教育訓練這一塊就是說大家都會使用嗎?還是說會用的人會用,不會的人就讓他們自己去學習?以本會而言,我們普遍都有全部都有上過課全部都有上過課,所以大家都大概會去使用"},{"start":14397.748,"end":14415.363,"text":"好那這第一個齁那第二個在就叫這個主委就是說因為這個是生成式AI嘛齁他主要還是所謂的生成式就是說必須他的生成要有他的未資料齁所謂的未資料那這部分會不會有涉及到政府的"},{"start":14416.423,"end":14442.874,"text":"這個機密的一些資訊外洩的一個問題那如何去預防謝謝委員 這裡面有兩個構面就像如同我前面講的當我們在查詢整理資料的時候怎麼樣做到安全國科會已經給了一個指引那第二個部分是就我了解國科會現在正在做一個AI基本法它的目的就希望做到主權AI讓台灣的資料能夠保存在台灣而不會被其他地方拿到"},{"start":14444.174,"end":14466.343,"text":"這個進一步說明當然我們可以請國科會來補充,但是就我了解目前政府很積極在做這個步驟那如果涉及到機密資料已經跑進去了呢?如果涉及到真的有一些屬於比較機密、機敏性的結果它已經在AI的基本資料裡面,但是你也沒辦法把它抽離啊那這部分你要怎麼樣去做未來的預防?"},{"start":14468.761,"end":14482.218,"text":"這裡以政府目前現在是有在做資料治理的管控那這個資料治理管控是不會讓機密資料進去的所以一開始就必須一開始先管控好嗎我想這個應該也不只台灣啦全世界大概都"},{"start":14482.939,"end":14484,"text":"主權AI的確是目前台灣很重要的一件事情"},{"start":14507.515,"end":14521.832,"text":"在第三個再來就叫這個主委那當然是說台灣過去也有在發展類似台版的這個叫做CHAT、GDP的台版的叫做TIDE"},{"start":14523.137,"end":14546.876,"text":"那這樣的一個泰德的這樣的一個他的跟確實比較不一樣是他比較靠台灣B啦他的使用的可能是以繁體中文然後可能比較有一些台灣的一些語言本土語言的一些特色那但是呢畢竟市場有限所以如果要打向國際的話他可能還要更多的"},{"start":14547.517,"end":14547.677,"text":"所以,未來,"},{"start":14555.707,"end":14579.521,"text":"臺灣的政策會在這一個這一個開發自己的這個AI的軟體還是說因為畢竟現在黃仁勳他也是帶著臺灣的產業對不對所以還是我們就是說在這兩個抉擇上我們還是要發展自己的開發自己的軟體還是說就讓他順其自然業界本來這個業界本來就是強者很強如果"},{"start":14581.642,"end":14607.526,"text":"不夠強的話自然會被淘汰那這個國發會你們的具體的策略是怎樣這個部分我有整個看過TED的展示那的確台灣需要有自己的工具原因是他不論是用台語也好或者是用中文也好他所得到的資料的精準度都會比國外的產品好"},{"start":14608.166,"end":14623.158,"text":"那英文的部分國外本來就會有所以呢基本上它會兼具英文兼具中文兼具台語那它所能夠服務台灣人民的資料查詢的精準度我看到的展示都會比國外的來得好很多"},{"start":14623.658,"end":14639.336,"text":"那對服務國民、人民的一些政府服務也都可以做得會比較好一點所以泰德他的優勢就是說他比較本土化啦可能是我們的台語啦或是我們比較講的比較一些方言的東西他這一套軟體他是有辦法掌握的"},{"start":14639.776,"end":14668.047,"text":"但是它的掌握度總是在專業度上可能會不夠不會像其他的軟體它為的資料可能比較多而且比較多元可能會有這樣的問題那所以主委你的說法是說這一套軟體還是有它的優勢所以未來我們還是會扶持這一套軟體讓它繼續壯大嘍是就我了解國科會目前的做法是這樣好那除了除了扶持它之外可是我們要怎麼鼓勵大家使用"},{"start":14669.512,"end":14698.06,"text":"他現在等到他們應該是有一個發展進程接收之後他應該就會開始開放出來是不是我請國科會這邊來說明一下跟委員報告那基本上台德這個計畫原來是到4月底可是我們會把它延續到12月底就是讓台德他在這個資料的收集還有模型的訓練能夠各號台灣V然後明年開始我們會加強他的推廣跟應用"},{"start":14698.84,"end":14714.12,"text":"那目前來講我們這個調整後的那個model我們是會把新的版本都會公佈然後讓這個業界還有讓那個什麼我們講的公務機關都能夠下載然後它經過微調之後就可以來使用"},{"start":14715.796,"end":14742.356,"text":"就是說過去類似這樣的我想在幾年前就是說像那個LINE剛在興起的時候台灣也有一度說要去開發我們自己的通訊軟體那但是後來也是卡在市場因素整個市場大家就是都用LINE所以台灣的通訊軟體後來在當時也差不多無聲而起了所以我現在也開心你現在去開發這一套Tide但是"},{"start":14745.718,"end":14762.033,"text":"他的市場的優勢究竟在哪邊以及他這個市場優勢足以讓他未來是可以支撐在這個競爭的環境中這件事情我是問號的所以你若沒有講出一套你未來要怎麼去推廣去行銷我感覺起來我們這套軟體要怎麼跟"},{"start":14765.47,"end":14791.885,"text":"講白了要怎麼跟CHAT的GDP他們現在還不斷的在成長中我們要怎麼跟人家競爭啊這個有兩個部分喔它跟LINE比較不像喔這裡面其實對服務台灣人民我們整個是大人其實它需要用台語來服務或是客語來服務那所以呢它對於本土性的服務對於做智慧政府或者是廠商要做智慧醫療智慧零售都會有很好所以主委你的意思說我們的優勢就是說"},{"start":14793.306,"end":14808.671,"text":"他對於台語對於方言的適應度是更高的那將來辨別度也會比較好對東南亞市場的華人市場我們都還是可以進入那另外因為他的邏輯是一樣的他轉回到英文跟中文的時候在華人市場跟海外市場還是有機會做進展"},{"start":14810.651,"end":14829.843,"text":"所以它跟LINE會比較不太一樣當然我LINE只是一個舉例啦但是未必是類似的狀況但是我只要跟強調就是說我們既然要發展這一套軟體我們要怎麼把它的優勢發揮到我相信啊CHAT的GDP總有一天它的台語的功能也許會變強喔"},{"start":14831.244,"end":14841.937,"text":"哪一天他覺得這一塊有市場的時候,他就會在哪一塊強化?等他那一塊強化的時候,我們的優勢就會對得起所以我們既然要在這個軟體上要做競逐的話,我們一定要有一個我們要如何提供的一個重點,好不好?"},{"start":14850.266,"end":14865.953,"text":"我認為這可以再研究看看我是給你們鼓勵啦但是我也知道說台灣以我們的市場我們要開發出足以支撐然後讓它能夠賺錢的軟體那是很困難的我也是在你們鼓勵啦好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請羅志祥委員請做詢答 謝謝"},{"start":14885.99,"end":14888.816,"text":"主席有請郭部長我們再請郭部長部長好委員好"},{"start":14897.116,"end":14921.713,"text":"最近台灣因為輝達的執行長黃仁勛AMD的執行長蘇之鋒先後訪問然後黃仁勛說要輝達在5年內在台灣要興建大型的設計公司至少要僱用1000名工程師那當然各地方政府爭相邀請那我這邊倒不是在跟你討論他們落腳何處而是事實上落腳台灣之後"},{"start":14922.634,"end":14928.534,"text":"我們能否給輝達或超為足夠的一個我們講發展的環境有沒有信心"},{"start":14929.737,"end":14953.812,"text":"在這部分的話因為輝達要來他想說他要招聘一千位工程師我們是比較擔心我們這樣會不會把我們台灣的人才給大量用走那起這個連鎖效應所以我有後來剛開始是講說10個person他們要帶10person的engineer進來"},{"start":14954.753,"end":14978.632,"text":"但是我到經濟部服務以後,我跟輝達,我有直接要求他要提升到50%所以基本上你也會擔心產生人才排擠,工程師的部分所以你要求是要50%的那個比例那我想請教除了說人才的concern之外的話,你對他們的用電的部分你有信心嗎?"},{"start":14979.383,"end":15008.317,"text":"用電的部分因為他不會一開始就用這很高的電那我們當然是根據他的這個計畫我們來盤點我們自己的這個準備那跟委員報告到目前為止到2030年的這樣的一個規劃我們是有信心的好 非常謝謝部長的信心齁其實我談的也不是回答的個案啦因為將來部長也是希望能夠來我們AI是未來一個發展重心嘛"},{"start":15008.797,"end":15033.812,"text":"但大家全世界都知道說AI其實是個耗電的產業對不對可是我們剛好又看到就是說外媒對台灣有一個嚴重的示警認為我們電力短缺而且動輒缺水那美國的財經媒體CNBC說過去七年時間台灣發生了三次規模較大的停電那過去一年則有一系列小規模的停電"},{"start":15034.733,"end":15055.977,"text":"北台灣近年4月更在3天內發生停電多起的事件﹐那台灣有97%的能源依賴進口﹐那主要是煤炭跟天然氣﹐很容易使得台灣受到能源供應中斷的影響我覺得﹐請問一下你覺得這個﹐國外的財經媒體對這樣的一個產業的擔心﹐是不是其來有據呢?"},{"start":15057.388,"end":15065.939,"text":"國外的媒體擔心如果台灣缺電的話會造成世界經濟上的問題我在這邊要跟委員報告根據我們現在的盤點我們是不會缺電"},{"start":15073.669,"end":15092.179,"text":"可是我們上次有跟部長在詢答過你也坦承嘛停電的狀況實質上也讓民眾非常不安嘛對不對因為現在政府其實一直否認缺電啦但是我也慢慢懂大家的邏輯因為缺不缺齁是你的判斷問題但對人民來講我家有停電跟沒停電就是"},{"start":15093.7,"end":15119.254,"text":"一分為二的問題嘛 對不對可是現在也確實從數據來看的話我們停電的狀況變得當然你也可能是電網的問題所以我們要強韌電網嘛 對不對但有一部分是不是因為這供電上的一個不足造成說今天配電上的一些其他問題當然也有人有這些疑慮啦可是不管怎麼樣講現在連國際媒體看到都是停電增加跟停電平衡的這個事情"},{"start":15120.214,"end":15131.454,"text":"你原因不歸為缺電你要歸為電網也好但停電就是最鐵針針的狀況啊那我想請問部長你怎麼去消滅外資或是其他的廠商對這樣的疑慮呢"},{"start":15133.055,"end":15150.205,"text":"我們談點電的容量是夠的但是委員你所指導的這一部分我們電網的韌性我們會快速的來修改就是說有比較weak的地方我最後做一個簡單的結論其實電網的韌性我們已經談了很多年了"},{"start":15153.769,"end":15174.464,"text":"但如果交出的成績單是這樣子的話你也不要怪國際媒體懷疑我們其實是不是缺電造成的所以這個我想部長因為您才剛上來希望不只在所謂供電無虞不缺電的問題上電網韌性上總而言之我們要追求一個結果就是至少停電不能比以前嚴重嘛是不是是的好我們一起努力好不好謝謝部長好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":15181.405,"end":15201.702,"text":"接下來我們請盧君委員請做詢問好 謝謝主席 大家都辛苦了有請經濟部部長、國發會主委、國科會林法政副主委備詢好 我們請以上三位"},{"start":15208.191,"end":15228.523,"text":"謝謝也都辛苦了昨天本席在總質詢的時候有提到AI人型機器人的議題院長說政府都有在做那今天剛好經濟部、國發會、國科會都在這裡想請教您三個部會誰在主導國家的AI人型機器人Humanoid的政策三個部會是不是都有相關的計畫"},{"start":15232.226,"end":15250.613,"text":"我看到有人在這個很誠實的搖頭我覺得這是很好的不然的話早上說A下午變成B也不好有關計劃的話我想還是給各位一點時間去搜羅一下也許有可能比較小規模怎麼樣能不能在今天下班前將資料提供給本席"},{"start":15251.977,"end":15272.793,"text":"就有的話就提供沒有的話我們就知道沒有也沒有關係那機器人裡頭也很多軟體包括像是對話因為你要跟機器人講話眼睛機器人的眼睛要能夠看得懂這個世界同時也可能有新的IC需要被設計所以今天有媒體報導指出產業創新條例第十之二條的租稅抵減"},{"start":15273.553,"end":15289.306,"text":"吃硬不吃軟 優惠硬體生產廠 獨露IC設計業過去本席在質詢AI和晶片產業創新的議題的時候一直都在講四個字軟硬兼施隨著全球IC設計的產業競爭激烈"},{"start":15291.027,"end":15313.271,"text":"同時生成式AI也可能導入到IC設計的行業裡頭我們有沒有可能由政府單位在租稅優惠上擴大範圍來幫助台廠的IC設計業甚至更多的AI或機器人或人型機器人的軟體業拉高研發的動能?國務部長、劉主委你們覺得廠商的建議合理嗎?國際趨勢是否將軟體研發的經費也納入稅務優惠的範圍?"},{"start":15318.412,"end":15337.363,"text":"報告委員,這個早上的這個吃軟不吃硬這個它沒有達到我們的標準它沒有達到標準不是我們沒有,我們的產創條例是有的不過您的這個指導我在想說我們可以在為了將來的這整個IC業的這個設計業的發展"},{"start":15341.505,"end":15361.081,"text":"我們可以再來討論一下那個條件放寬一下其實就怕搞錯所以我後面直接就附了第12條真的是有一點吃硬不吃軟但沒有關係我們都一起來評估目前這個競爭很激烈希望請經濟部和國發會共同研議一個月內能不能提供本席的書面報告關於這個部分"},{"start":15363.562,"end":15381.878,"text":"報告委員可以好謝謝謝謝國發會在今天的報告當中也提到定標AI國際頂尖人才開展全球劣才計劃昨天這個院長我早上質詢完說美國白宮這個每一個部會都要有AI人才下午院長就說部部有AI"},{"start":15382.879,"end":15406.819,"text":"那我想我們的就業金卡還有人才AI人才不足我們希望能夠往外部往內就是從外部往內來往羅那我們一直在外流我們希望可以有入超所以半導體AI的產業演進快速人才的需求迫在眉睫現在就業金卡顯然不足能不能請教國發會留主委除了就業金卡以外我們能否研議新增條件較為彈性的AI就業銀卡"},{"start":15410.082,"end":15413.427,"text":"擴大對全球攬AI人才的機制"},{"start":15415.219,"end":15442.218,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前是因為現在是人才戰爭那它不僅僅是AI數位人才也很缺所以呢我們現在是要準備正在我們現在找了6個國家做比較我們準備全面把它放寬太好了我們今天也太感動了不是只有AI因為各個地方的人才我們都需要吸引進來軟硬兼施好不好然後呢這個AI的產業因為既然都已經AI內閣我覺得稍微重視一下也不為過啦最後針對能源議題郭部長"},{"start":15444.099,"end":15470.465,"text":"本席知道您這段時間內也許內心有一定的掙扎、煎熬或評估我昨天本來要問你但時間有點衝觸今天有沒有更新說法因為過去這個我想這都不是大家的本意因為科學、事實、理性就擺在眼前那我想在此能不能爭取主席給我一點時間那我給郭部長一點時間能不能表達一下您現在對於核電廠演藝的看法"},{"start":15471.837,"end":15485.706,"text":"核電廠我的看法都沒有改變以現在的法規定我沒有辦法討論除去這個法以外就核電的部分我想它還是沒有辦法滿足綠電的需求"},{"start":15489.005,"end":15516.152,"text":"那如果說就其他的這個討論我想這個我們要討論這個核酸的核酸或者核二這些問題都不是在我們可以討論的範圍之內所以這一點我們會關注這個新的核能新的核電的這個發展因為美國我想美國日本這些先進國家他們也都在關注這些議題我們當然也是關注這個議題但是以目前來講"},{"start":15517.392,"end":15534.288,"text":"我們現在的畢竟還是核廢料是非常大的處理的問題那這個安全上面我們確實目前是沒有辦法而且運作了40年它必須要下來下來以後再重新再檢討檢討它確實沒有問題了我們才來考慮現在這個都不是在議題裡面"},{"start":15538.772,"end":15553.425,"text":"非常抱歉謝謝部長您的回應我覺得還是相對客觀那我們也會持續的來交流核電的研議其實除了法規的修正我們希望行政院可以提出之外研議其實也是需要時間需要機組的整修這些其實是可以評估的"},{"start":15556.628,"end":15579.693,"text":"而不是說我們有委員在這邊質詢結果就說目前為止有電那這樣以後我們只要燈還亮著我們是不是就不用質詢核電的議題其實不是這樣所以能源政策非常務實客觀那您昨天院長也有提到這個基本法有這個限制什麼時候突然我們的院長又對我們的這個法令對我們大院這個出台的法案又這麼的尊重我今天才從剛剛才從程序委員會用衝的衝過來我們就在處理複議案我們很尊重他的複議案"},{"start":15584.714,"end":15606.825,"text":"但是我們立出來的法令結果變成這樣所以我想能源政策很科學客觀希望半導體和AI產業的未來提高了能源需求能不能請經濟部具體提出近5年因為半導體行業可能還會倍數增長我們講的是年增3%很可能都還是低估能不能提出近5年具備可行性的電力規劃讓產業安心好的 可以謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝"},{"start":15616.091,"end":15635.544,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請羅庭惠委員、羅庭惠委員不在現場我們請林楚英委員、林楚英、林楚英委員不在現場請陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員請莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":15642.947,"end":15663.582,"text":"我們現在登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢那詢談結束我們有莊瑞雄委員以及陳冠廷委員所提書面質詢請列入記錄刊登公報那書面質詢以及位置答覆的部分請於相關單位於一週以內以書面答覆並複製本委員會"},{"start":15665.984,"end":15681.264,"text":"今天要特別感謝我們所有列席的官員因為這是一個產業的革命所以我們透過這樣的一個交流一個互相的了解我們希望這只是開端也給行政部門一點時間好好去盤點包括"},{"start":15683.907,"end":15711.045,"text":"未來我們的方向走向但是有一點也就是希望國發會這邊因為其他的國家我們在跟進的時候人家量體都500到1000了如果我們未來的設定只有200那我們不知道以後怎麼應對所以我們也希望將實際國際的情況呢在國發會所handle的這個相關部會給行政院報告我們不要未來到最後人家都已經1000了我們設定了3年4年之後才200"},{"start":15711.946,"end":15733.697,"text":"那我想跟我們的國際要接軌是有困難的所以這一點也特別請國防會以及經濟部等相關單位也據實的給行政院來說明來重新規劃我想唯一的我們的目標就是大家團結一致讓台灣能夠在世界能夠發光所以我們今天"},{"start":15737.233,"end":15741.52,"text":"我們本日的議程處理完畢明天星期四繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":15745.097,"end":15748.719,"text":"好 我們的議事主任也辛苦了辛苦 辛苦 辛苦 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境教育部將持續與部會及民間團體緊密合作落實毒品防制政策並鼓勵校長及校職員工"},{"start":2516.994,"end":2537.008,"text":"具備校園霸凌防制意識期待以各界持續吸索防制毒品危害以減少校園霸凌事件維護學生學習權、受教權、身心自主權及人口發展權讓學生安心、家長放心共同營造安全友善的校園學習環境以上報告 敬請委員執政謝謝"},{"start":2538.902,"end":2555.969,"text":"好我們非常謝謝我們的鄭部長還有我們在場委員已經達到法定的三人所以請問對於上次的會議議事錄有沒有疑議好沒有那我們就議事錄確定那接下來我們就請法務部的郭司長進行報告時間五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2561.109,"end":2583.088,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生、大家早、大家好今天奉邀到貴委員會就如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件．表本部列席報告．並備質詢除了書面報告外．口頭則要報告如下 敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2583.809,"end":2601.006,"text":"防制毒品入侵校園為當前的反毒工作重點項目行政院在106年頒布新世代反毒策略以跨部會、跨地方、跨領域的整體作戰方式從驗毒、試毒、緝毒、戒毒等"},{"start":2602.048,"end":2614.368,"text":"擬定策略本部依循反毒策略的第一期工作基礎在第二期落實減少毒品需求、減少毒品供給、減少毒品傷害的三檢策略"},{"start":2615.638,"end":2633.454,"text":"達到阻斷毒三流的目標．並強化校園藥頭、茶器及左移在犯的預防機制．逐步達到抑制犯罪在犯．降低毒品新生的雙手目標．本部主責的企圖工作已有相當成效．"},{"start":2634.255,"end":2655.105,"text":"相較於第一期的這個超毒品數量成長有5.49倍有效的減少毒品供應施用毒品的人口下降22.29%減少毒品需求而施用PMMA的致死死亡人數從109年的93人到112年降為0人有效的減少毒品危害"},{"start":2662.429,"end":2682.097,"text":"那就有關於本部校園毒品防制的作為跟各位委員報告從法制面、查緝面、宣導面以及這個司法保護面來做報告首先有關於法制面的部分對黑幫、販毒、炸雞等犯罪組織吸收幫助或者利用而造犯罪"},{"start":2682.697,"end":2706.363,"text":"共同實施犯罪、招募兒少等這些犯罪行為依照兒童及少年福利權利保障法第112條第一項及組織犯罪防制條例第4條三項的規定都要加重期刑到二分之一而有關人口犯罪法31條第三項也規定成年人利用兒少犯罪者最重可"},{"start":2706.983,"end":2731.785,"text":"最高可處7年有期徒刑再來有關於毒品危害防制條例第9條一項的部分曾恩忍販賣轉讓毒品給兒少及吸引兒少施用毒品的話都會加重及刑至二分之一就有關於掃黑的一個法制面的一個加重部分在112年也擴大了這個處罰加重罪者增定刑法302條之一"},{"start":2733.346,"end":2747.864,"text":"以及這個組織犯罪防制條例的相關的規定就有關於查緝面將組織犯罪侵入校園吸收利用在學學生失事犯罪案件類為指標性的犯罪組織案件並檢討成效二指令"},{"start":2750.267,"end":2775.422,"text":"利用兒少犯罪最高檢成立的少黑工作督導小組及各地檢署成立的少黑工作執行小組對於侵入校園、吸收利用在學學生實施犯罪的這些犯罪行為列為指標性的案件查辦再來,跨機關的合作包括這個依行這個新世代的反毒策略結合院檢"},{"start":2776.583,"end":2805.246,"text":"警教為合作平台有效防毒毒品侵入校園就宣導面本部依照新世代反毒策略行動綱領第二期會同相關部會落實執行各項反毒工作有關兒少校園毒品防制相關預防宣導並精進措施之下包括有獎勵結合地方政府民間團體反毒宣導"},{"start":2806.207,"end":2827.379,"text":"再來就是有關於這個持續製作反毒宣導影片在各投播平台播放整合政府部門反毒宣導建置本部的反毒大本營網站在有關於司法保護面落實適用毒品再犯防止推進計畫引導適用毒品的兒少復歸校園及"},{"start":2829.54,"end":2848.965,"text":"及其家庭。再來,行政院已經正在整合各部會的資源．積極嚴厲預防少年兒童犯罪方案就有關於校園霸凌部分．在112年的6月21日經總統公布《少年事件處理法》之後．"},{"start":2849.845,"end":2867.876,"text":"檢察官在偵辦案件過程如果發現少年設有出犯刑法法律的時候應該依由少年法院處理不得再對少年獲蓄偵查因此有關此一部分就依由教育部及內政部依權者處理最後"},{"start":2868.556,"end":2889.508,"text":"本部將持續運行新世代反毒策略及新世代反毒策略形容綱領透過公司部門的協力強化校園藥頭查緝避免販毒網路進入侵入校園以上報告謝謝各位委員的指教感謝好我們謝謝國司長的口頭報告那我們現在請警政署的蔡警政監來進行報告時間也是5分鐘"},{"start":2901.4,"end":2921.24,"text":"主席以及各位委員．各位女士先生大家好首先對於各位委員就警政業務推動的關注與指導表示由衷的感謝今日緊就本署組織的項目檢要報告如下敬請指教議題一如何防制毒品侵入校園像之一經統計五年警察機關查獲"},{"start":2923.291,"end":2925.515,"text":"應應青少年、學生涉毒向來為國人關注的議題為持續減低校園毒品危害"},{"start":2938.735,"end":2962.802,"text":"本署已經歸納出新興毒品樣態以及包裝多元化另外學生與校外接觸毒品、藥頭利用學生網路來販毒等學生可能涉及毒品及產生黑素的原因並利用行政院毒品防制匯報、新世代反毒策略行動綱領、校警定期聯繫會議等與各部會合作建立相關的機制"},{"start":2964.605,"end":2990.678,"text":"如下．之一強化查緝斷源供應．各級警察機關查獲的時候除了依照毒品危害防制條例報請偵辦施予裁罰外我們同時要求所屬要強化溯源追查藥頭另外在暑期的時候都會舉辦青春專案另外不定期的配合高檢署規劃執行安居企圖專案以查緝各類毒品阻斷各級毒品進入校園"},{"start":2991.578,"end":3015.64,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":3015.88,"end":3030.646,"text":"據學院身份的販毒青少年的時候：也會透過相關機制來反饋給學校立案來輔導：立案輔導的過程中：如果發現涉毒學生有掌握藥頭情資：也會在保護學生為前提之下：回饋給警方來溯源偵辦。機制3"},{"start":3033.087,"end":3059.966,"text":"明密聯繫事實入校本署已與教育部定有三級定期聯繫機制由教育部對本署各級主管教育行政機關對警察局各級學校對分局每三個月抄改一次聯繫會議討論校園安全等相關議題若校內發生重大刑案危害安全事件或發現毒品均可以透過相關機制來聯絡警方入校來協處機制是"},{"start":3062.828,"end":3077.8,"text":"因應毒情及時宣導本署已經督同各警察機關、少年輔導委員會而利用及時宣導、分群分眾以及中央廚房策略來辦理試毒及防止再犯的宣導除將查緝所見的最新毒品的樣態還有包裝來及時發布新聞使社會大眾窒息並及時防治"},{"start":3085.866,"end":3103.911,"text":"與各級學校也結合辦理反毒的宣導法治教育專題演講本組亦陸續推出反毒宣導系列影片邀請形象良好與具話題性的知名藝人、運動明星擔任反毒大使以強化新少年學生最新的嗜毒之能"},{"start":3106.607,"end":3130.063,"text":"經觀察近年涉及少年毒品犯罪人數均呈向下降趨勢．可見各部會藉由新世代反毒策略行動綱領、毒品防制匯報等相關會議．對於降低青少年犯罪人口數．發掘毒品黑數已經有一定的成效議題二．如何減少霸凌案件"},{"start":3132.645,"end":3145.136,"text":"為協同教育單位防制校園霸凌本屬以介於教育部定期聯繫會議等機制共同訂定相關房主作為樓下機制一掌握偏差行為先行輔導"},{"start":3146.898,"end":3161.777,"text":"為早期發現學生偏差行為使學生盡早進入輔導體系本屬與教育部合作定有偏差行為通知機制要求各警察機關發現學生在校外偏差行為應該以密件的方式來通知學校進行輔導"},{"start":3164.32,"end":3192.493,"text":"另外若我們少年學生在校外有涉犯《少年事件處理法》第三條一項二款的暴嫌行為亦將由各地方政府的少年輔導委員會結合學校來開案啟動行政輔導先行的機制機制二明密聯繫事實入校為尊重校園自治以及教學自由本署有訂定警察人員進入校園執法相關機制明訂警察人員未經校方同意不得進入校園"},{"start":3193.533,"end":3218.095,"text":"但是校方被動同意或主動請求時方得進入校園來執法為建立校園安全機制本署已經立定各警察分局與各級學校應該平時保持聯繫並由少年警察隊派專員進行聯繫機制3事後查核及下架機制國家NCC已經委託IWIN網路內容防護"},{"start":3219.036,"end":3219.737,"text":"以上報告 敬請指教"},{"start":3235.421,"end":3242.788,"text":"好,謝謝我們的蔡警政監的口頭報告我們現在就進行詢答每位初期委員質詢的時間是8分鐘票收延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘那如果委員有臨時提案請在上午"},{"start":3251.476,"end":3266.786,"text":"10點30分前提出並於委員會張雅玲委員質詢結束之後我們就要立即進行處理處理提案的時候若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場我們就原力不予處理我們事讓首先請發言登記第一位的紅孟凱委員質詢好主席謝謝麻煩請鄭部長好鄭部長"},{"start":3288.973,"end":3314.687,"text":"好部長好部長委員好我想今天召委排這個專題報告非常的有意義因為霸凌也好或者是說毒品進入校園都是我們長期非常關心的事情我們也希望真的能夠把這樣的事情給一勞永逸但實際上現實上不太可能為什麼因為只要有人的地方可能都有這樣的一個情況但您知道嗎在本席去查一下資料"},{"start":3315.687,"end":3334.279,"text":"6月到現在6月12日光短短12天裡面我們透過Google新聞的調查校園霸凌就出現90幾筆當然有一些是重複的可是從6月1號到6月12號新聞標題有某縣市校園傳霸凌校長否認蓋牌"},{"start":3336.6,"end":3359.791,"text":"國二生疑遭霸凌墜樓醫藥費募到了有婉拒同學告白高中生遭集體霸凌情深校園霸凌層出不窮然後呼籲大家社會大眾呼籲要防範未來換言之這樣的一個事件持續在發生我想先請教一下霸凌校園霸凌裡面有幾個樣態一個分別是深對深"},{"start":3361.172,"end":3369.518,"text":"一個是師對生一個有可能生對師當然比較少我們有沒有去統計比例這樣子的樣態裡面各佔多少比例"},{"start":3371.36,"end":3393.489,"text":"跟委員報告這一個我目前因為新的這個校園霸凌的防制法出來過去我們大概就只有著重在生對生那並沒有把師對生這個納入這個校園霸凌的一個防制準則裡面那更何況有可能是生對師當然這樣的例子比較少但是還是會有"},{"start":3394.509,"end":3409.787,"text":"主要還是大部分應該是說九成以上還是都是來自於身對身的一些這個霸凌事件可是光本席剛剛有講到6月1號到6月12其實就有兩個案件他是"},{"start":3411.368,"end":3428.539,"text":"施對生的霸凌事件包括有個縣市他講是說有小學六年級的特殊生遭導師辱罵疑似遭導師辱罵拍桌不敢上學然後讓縣市政府質疑是說通報跟整體納管機制有問題"},{"start":3429.841,"end":3441.029,"text":"為什麼?我覺得可以理解是怎麼樣就是說師對生會不會變成是他的特殊案例比較少但有沒有可能就造成是校方會集體來去做一個隱匿的狀況"},{"start":3443.371,"end":3443.631,"text":"但是處理的時候"},{"start":3468.376,"end":3469.577,"text":"各縣市有教育局去列管的案件"},{"start":3490.057,"end":3498.643,"text":"處理的狀況跟進度那其中像這個這個案件裡面要講到桃園市桃園市說管考的案件97%都已經結案那換言之還是有3%沒有結案"},{"start":3502.828,"end":3530.181,"text":"教育部身為中央主管機關有沒有去了解各縣市教育局每個月去做這種校園霸凌的管考案件結案的一個狀況因為本席剛剛一直聽到您講是說都要跟地方主管機關納入校園的相關督導學校也要適時的回報地方主管機關那一樣地方主管機關如果說它的積極程度沒有那麼多的話我們中央主管機關怎麼樣去督促地方主管機關"},{"start":3531.84,"end":3554.585,"text":"我們有沒有做一個整體每個月縣市教育局他們通報回報的狀況我們做個掌握基本上我們是有做廣告的所以我們才會特別提到說每個月他必須要地方政府他必須要對各個學校所發生的事件能夠進行列管那這一個更詳細的我們是不是能夠請簡單說明一下現在機制違和"},{"start":3557.486,"end":3584.749,"text":"跟委員報告我們部裡頭目前掌握的都是由校安通報所提報的疑似的案件那進入調查處理程序之後因為法令調查規定的時間是兩個月必要的時候可以再延長延長兩次一次一個月所以其實時間確實會拉得比較長一點點那這個管制的措施目前是在地方就是各主管機關的部分會進行管制那因為目前這一塊我們還沒有把這個透過網路的方式去填報它"},{"start":3585.39,"end":3585.69,"text":"稍後會進行統計"},{"start":3602.406,"end":3622.572,"text":"因為其實這感覺起來這是一個相對來說是系統性的問題你如果說可以由就像我們很多的這個食安也好或說相關的這個機制也好也都可以用通報的方式用填寫的方式那就可以一套系統大家從中央到地方就可以看到甚至本席比較不好意思講"},{"start":3622.992,"end":3642.688,"text":"如果說各縣市他也會去比﹖如果說互相可以看到﹖我們去識別的話﹖但至少可以看到哪一些縣市他有一些列管的相對結案數比較低哪些縣市結案數比較高那是不是也可以縣市之間來做一個互相砥礪求進步那再者剛剛本期有聽到部長特別講第4點"},{"start":3644.318,"end":3666.05,"text":"地方主管機關督促防制校園霸凌事件要納入中央對地方政府一般性教育的補助款考核項目所以說未來這樣結案率是不是也會是這個補助款的一個考核項目之一是的跟委員報告這就是我們希望說這一個許多的國民教育這一個還是地方政府他必須要有"},{"start":3667.111,"end":3668.132,"text":"我們這裡的比例會是多少?我那個補助款的比例"},{"start":3698.154,"end":3719.211,"text":"報告委員 這個我們考核項目裡面大概有佔百分之二以上那很多項目了那另外他回饋到要怎麼樣扣補助款現在以往他是用整個大補助款來處理現在部長希望能夠就霸凌的部分能夠針對性的先是努力與否以下結案情形做一個單獨的統計"},{"start":3721.973,"end":3749.51,"text":"對,我現在部長這就是本集剛看到的因為以往外界也會質疑也會擔心就是說中央有時候補助給地方都是看顏色啊我覺得這樣不好那一樣如果說你現在可以回歸到相對教育專業可以回歸到是說我們針對霸凌事件處理態度、積極程度以及預防程度來去做一個有效的算是一個評分標準之一我覺得這可能可以試試看大家來去做一個討論"},{"start":3750.45,"end":3774.266,"text":"那一樣那就變成是兩個部分第一你的比例有多少因為如果說你的比例不高的話那其實不痛不癢那第二是不是能夠落實不要說你現在拿出來之後到最後大家又覺得是說你只是處罰到哪一些縣市有顏色的縣市我就顏色不同的縣市我就用這一個來閒置你沒顏色的縣市我就"},{"start":3775.987,"end":3800.901,"text":"大開方便之門會不會有這樣的情況?跟委員報告請委員放心我希望你做的讓我放心我希望你做的讓全國國人放心讓全國家長放心所以制度什麼時候把這個制度建立起來告訴各界讓我們所有縣市的教育局能夠了解我們現在的這樣的一個新的方式那大家"},{"start":3802.501,"end":3829.515,"text":"遊戲規則制定大家照片照鏡什麼時候我們會把它給確認一個月內以後一個月內我們會把這個詳細的這個考評跟相關的跟委員送給委員執政給本席然後並且通知各縣市政府教育局來去做確認遊戲規則是不是那比例本席在提醒比例相對來說一定要讓大家覺得是說是有感的有感"},{"start":3829.935,"end":3835.743,"text":"大家會爭取那我們不是要處罰重點是我們希望的是大家能夠做好百分之百來"},{"start":3837.844,"end":3840.865,"text":"對部長你講到一個非常大的重點其實因為今天有兩個主題另外一個主題就是毒品防制的部分"},{"start":3864.375,"end":3881.348,"text":"其實毒品防制的部分本席剛剛看到您這邊這樣子的一個報告但是國小、國中、高中、大學甚至研究所這樣態毒品防制是完全不同的國中有所謂現在我們也看到媒體報導上面寫說"},{"start":3884.06,"end":3906.981,"text":"青少年吸食電子煙的使用率從107年的2.7%上升到6.6%短短三年內快速倍增了快兩倍的時間而且這還是三年前的資料現在有多氾濫我們還不清楚但是電子煙明明是到目前為止大家去問不管是加熱煙或電子煙在台灣都是非法的產品"},{"start":3907.602,"end":3907.762,"text":"大麻"},{"start":3932.108,"end":3932.128,"text":"部長．"},{"start":3961.755,"end":3982.631,"text":"您今天的口頭報告跟書面報告本席特別看了一下我必須說沒有針對不同的年齡層跟不同的樣態來去做深入的防治這個寫得很簡單但是如果說你這樣就可以做的話那這一些問題不會留待你來解決"},{"start":3983.612,"end":3985.473,"text":"部長,本席能不能要求比較具體因為接下來有可能我們要害防治法"},{"start":4006.363,"end":4031.848,"text":"加熱煙會去做納管電子煙是禁止這是現在煙害防治法通過在第10屆的時候通過那現在針對青少年不管是使用這個電子煙氾濫的一個狀況能不能做一個比較具體的防治的一個項目來跟我們教育文化委員會來做報告那另外大學生大專院校用大麻的部分是不是也能夠有一個檢討報告這個時間點您能夠多久來提出"},{"start":4036.929,"end":4053.186,"text":"三個月好不好謝謝委員我想我們會加速來做因為確實我們業能夠快速掌握第一線上各級學校我知道因為現在接下來就要暑假本期為什麼會提三個月就是希望是說在今年聶聶剛上任本期希望能夠在"},{"start":4054.877,"end":4080.422,"text":"9月開學前我們可以看到新任部長對於教育有新的想法跟防制的方式那能夠在9月的時候開學的時候不管是國中校不管是大專院校都有新的一個防制或是我想我們至少我們先可以拿一個教育階段或者一個年齡階段來做一個例子先來跟委員做報告好那是不是9月之前能夠提供這個書面資料"},{"start":4083.172,"end":4084.474,"text":"您需要多久時間?抱歉。"},{"start":4101.325,"end":4125.201,"text":"因為暑假學生這個他確實放假那當然如果我們可以大量的收集到一些Data我現在沒有不需要你收集Data這Data應該是之前就已經收集過了部長問一下之前這不是今天才出現的問題你看我們朝委都已經在等待我我現在只是說你在新的會期現在已經快要放暑假了嗎如果就現有的Data分析沒有問題的開學前我們就可以提出來提出有效的防制"},{"start":4130.945,"end":4133.487,"text":"部長你提的這個本席同意喔?如果說你願意的話你都可以把它編列成明年的預算你只要你提出來本席這邊教育文化委員會一定會支持"},{"start":4154.5,"end":4183.379,"text":"你願意來帶頭做每10年開始來舉動做霸凌以及做相關的一個毒品的校園的一個狀況的一個大規模調查本席支持但我們現在比較專注的是說當現在9月要新開學的時候我已經提出來了新少年的電子菸的氾濫使用以及大專院校的大麻的氾濫使用怎麼樣有效的提出防制的項目而不是像今天一樣兩三頁的紙就把那麼大的題目給打發完畢是"},{"start":4184.6,"end":4208.777,"text":"9月可以好,謝謝部長謝謝,官員請回座接著繼續進行請柯之恩委員、柯之恩召委質詢謝謝主席,我們是不是請部長還有我們請法務部的我們的法務部的代表還有我們警政署的代表三位好不好請三位官員就備詢"},{"start":4212.625,"end":4224.491,"text":"好 謝謝三位我現在是首先是不是可以請教育部長、法務部代表、警政署你們可以承諾堅決反對大麻合法化部長你可以率先承諾嗎部長現在不是在做學術討論你是不是可以堅決反對大麻合法化現在我們法律的規定是堅決反對好 那我們的警政署"},{"start":4239.417,"end":4254.405,"text":"報告委員警政署也同意好那我們的法務部各位報告有關於大麻非法這一個部分是法務部向來的政策是不可能合法化對所以也是我們安居棄土的查棄重點沒錯為什麼我要請"},{"start":4255.786,"end":4255.806,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":4280.385,"end":4295.058,"text":"之前就有媒體的報導他們就認為說這個大麻我特別強調這個大麻串起這個在大學裡面幾乎已經是每一個人都很清楚的現在大學生還有包括在很多年輕朋友吸食大麻變成是一種時尚"},{"start":4297.04,"end":4300.042,"text":"當媒體這樣報導的時候呢這個教育部馬上就做出回擊然後就告訴大家說根據我們這樣統計呢這個用戶濫用幾乎這個校安通報是下降的來我們來看看這個教育部給我們的數字也的確啦你從108年到112年來說的話校安的通報次數是下降的但是我們再看下一頁"},{"start":4321.477,"end":4321.717,"text":"接下來我要問下面這一張"},{"start":4348.069,"end":4352.832,"text":"甚至有一位這個已經是署名的醫生：他趁著把他的名字講出來在他的案例當作精神科醫師：他說現在是目前來說的他的這個所謂的個案已經是已經出現了幻聽幻覺而且這位個案他認為他已經特別提出來系上幾乎有一半人都在吸食大麻"},{"start":4369.941,"end":4373.786,"text":"那這個東西有待考慮可是這位醫生是我查過了的確是醫院的真實的一個醫生他為什麼要爆出這樣的一個個案因為他認為這個事情非常的嚴重我們接下來看一下我接下來問大麻到底去哪裡了我請三位可以代表來回應的因為你看"},{"start":4387.523,"end":4392.046,"text":"2023年3月的時候我們高檢署市警目前已經4年增加的8倍然後高檢署在2024年6月7號非常近的告訴我們他們查獲量是從2000跟這個2022年比較起來是增加了將近50%誰可以來回答這個問題然後接下來我還要問一個問題是你們地檢署辦理大麻的案件你們真假的失用的人數跟你查獲的量數是完全不符合比例的"},{"start":4417.324,"end":4431.37,"text":"那這個黑數的確存在啊這誰可以來回應一下所以部長你剛剛所說教育部的教育那個藥物濫用是下降是這樣子嗎我們再往前看保持前面那一張這個黑數到底有多少誰能告訴我們我們是不是可以請我們的法務部"},{"start":4437.318,"end":4459.916,"text":"跟委員報告因為就如同剛跟委員報告的法務部對大馬的查緝這幾年來是全力的在查緝所以會有那麼大的量是因為我們包括我們48警察機關全力的查緝那至於這個黑數的問題確實存在著私用人口黑數的一個問題因為大馬私用的人口結構上他是比較高白領"},{"start":4460.777,"end":4463.058,"text":"所以跟委員報告這幾波的NG企圖的計畫就針對有關於這個私用人口的黑素座右系統的一個查緝那有辦法嗎?你看這個差距很大欸"},{"start":4484.005,"end":4508.26,"text":"跟委員報告就是一百一十二年就是去年那一年齁總共的適用人數查獲有八百零二個我知道這邊有啊這邊就在上面啊是那這個部門也是你們覺得25%跟你們查獲量我還是一句話啦完全司長完全是不成比例我們往下看啊這我要給部長來看大麻流竄其實最大的問題還是網路隨便可以看到啊你看"},{"start":4509.281,"end":4510.942,"text":"我這個是完全是用Twitter他後來改名X頻道各位部長看這都是在臺灣這全部在臺灣我只拿出1%而已隨處可見到告訴你什麼地方什麼地點你可以用什麼樣的產品你要找什麼樣的人"},{"start":4526.147,"end":4526.447,"text":"這是一個非常大的一個問題"},{"start":4548.615,"end":4567.369,"text":"部長,你現在已經發現,難怪你需要到年底,如果照這種樣態來說的話,可能給你時間都不夠用,對不對?感謝委員的一個提醒,我想大麻這些的從學校到警政到社政到醫療,我們是一個共同合作的一個單位。"},{"start":4569.61,"end":4592.228,"text":"也跟委員報告其實大麻這個大量的一個查緝事實上也感謝我們這個海關邊境海關因為他的查貨問題是那是上游我當然知道但是到你校園來說你看現在當你發現學生有大麻或在宿舍裡面有大麻的話警政要進入我們校園裡面其實也不太容易因為要經過一連串的這樣的一個過程"},{"start":4594.93,"end":4615.314,"text":"所以這個東西就更加是我們整個校園裡面使用的一個被查緝的一個困難度剛剛已經司長特別提到嘛很多都是來自白頂階層然後都在家裡使用的時候都會這個如果沒有鄰居報案沒有聞到那個味道你對味道敏感的話你根本就是大家嗨嗨了一晚就沒事了然後五天當中有三天還繼續嗨這是個很大的問題"},{"start":4617.975,"end":4640.299,"text":"部長我只是提醒你我們現在目前已經到樣態已經是非你所能夠控制的更不要說我們說電子菸好不好我們來看這個電子菸你應該不抽電子菸可是你知道我們電子菸已經入侵校園了嗎而且我要問法務部一下一到電子菸裡面有一個叫做依托米紙的用於用於這個電子菸當中而且會成癮而且你成癮的話沒有辦法思考然後呢就會像殭屍盤一樣很多民眾檢舉了為什麼我們動作這麼慢"},{"start":4645.2,"end":4649.122,"text":"法務部要來討論一下,你們什麼時候討論要把它列為我們這個所謂的三級毒品,什麼時候?對嘛,我就知道你要講明天,我就是因為查到你明天我今天特別問你這個問題,其他的各國早就把它列為是一個三級毒品,我們法務部到現在還跟我說明天,你覺得你們會不會太慢了?"},{"start":4665.05,"end":4681.626,"text":"根委員報告因為我們這個列為毒品的品項有一定的流程就是別人國家沒有流程喔根委員報告因為這個在五月份的時候食藥署那邊已經列為管藥所以你是明天嘛對不對明天變三級毒品"},{"start":4681.946,"end":4694.24,"text":"我還是認為慢很多每個人都有流程你這個流程就慢很多當我們的學生而且我還是我說一下部長你知道有非常多的人這些學生同才在炫耀本來還有一個叫煙蛋原是三個一百塊但是因為含有毒品現在呢一個要價兩千到兩千五賣人的速度非常快學生還會有集資來購買"},{"start":4703.63,"end":4724.036,"text":"所以說呢以你們各位的思維再看看我們現在這麼靈活的學生教養網路這個東西我們真的是落伍非常的多這是我很擔心的謝謝警政單位請回我接下來問一下霸凌的問題這個霸凌想讓我非常的痛心啊這個部長完全謝謝我們警政單位可以先回去一下啊這個法務部都回去部長你看看嘛桃園我隨便列舉嘛你看國二的長期受到霸凌傷到一半絕望"},{"start":4729.218,"end":4738.1,"text":"聚樓、阿嬤、靠咖啡室、三八五十班的醫療費都付不出來、隔代教養我知道你聽了也會非常的痛心然後呢我們就要問嘛這又不是長期的我都以為在看韓劇看到韓劇我覺得韓國人怎麼這麼可惡你看網路上都是我們台灣的長期霸凌下方為什麼沒有發現通報系統出了什麼問題家長都不知道學校輔導處怎麼可能允許一個女學生被霸凌到這種程度沒人知道"},{"start":4757.325,"end":4766.431,"text":"還有用跳樓來凸顯霸凌的黑暗面還有明星學校這是小三的學生被都是殺然後老師還公審他要向他跟全班來道歉因為他去檢舉老師類似這樣的事情部長看了會不會很痛心是 我都很痛心"},{"start":4776.597,"end":4783.779,"text":"當然是痛心然後呢我們再看看你們所看到的這些所謂的經費來說然後呢經費每一年都在加碗我剛剛以剛剛我們一起來討論你知道嗎為什麼我要特別說你去看看很多學生使用毒品的時候被誘騙的情況你們說你們花了很多的經費在做很多的宣導我告訴你宣導的結果是什麼"},{"start":4795.863,"end":4799.565,"text":"學長結果就是學生的認知完全是他會被人家認為說免費提供新興的毒品有25%認為說OK這是免費的還有很多人認為說不會被驗出沒有刑責不會成癮"},{"start":4810.791,"end":4816.212,"text":"這是別人在騙他的時候他都這麼認為然後我們的教育部還有一些反毒的宣導還給了一堆的經費這經費還不到位難怪這些學生被騙、被誘騙所以部長我也知道你從小到你從小學到你當過教育地方的教育局長你也當過到目前為止在大學當校長我很清楚但是你看看我們現在的經費是逐年下降我們的預算已經是下降了我們的決算更是沒有辦法"},{"start":4840.299,"end":4842.861,"text":"所以說呢我説實在我以前在大學也申請了經費那麽紫金花的見鬼了我跟妳說那到底對我們大學生有什麽效果但是呢我們還是那現在連申請都還申請不到"},{"start":4863.032,"end":4867.394,"text":"所以你剛答應洪孟楷三個月我某種程度還蠻贊同你到年底的因為這些太多樣態了否則你給我們的都會是一些很表象的都告訴我們有你光是看經費光是看樣態還有包括我們之後的怎麼樣去輔導我們的認知你看學生還認為說不會被判刑哦不會成癮哦免費給你哦"},{"start":4886.144,"end":4910.402,"text":"你看他的認知跟我們宣導的項目差距多大雖然他的預算下降我都認為如果預算沒有用到刀口不太會用到刀口上的話給這麼多預算也沒有用你同意吧部長同意我想這個怎麼讓預算真正用在刀口上發揮他的一個效益跟品質認知上面不同的階段裡面有不同的認知我個人覺得大學生如果你沒有給他一個"},{"start":4911.763,"end":4921.831,"text":"議議一個方向的話大麻那種還對學生來說一定超乎你想像之外用很多不同的管道最後最後一頁就是要請問你請問學生輔導法什麼時候送上來已經都快要結束了從潘部長到你現在我們的學生輔導法到目前為止我們都還沒有看到不斷的承諾部長我只是告訴你如果你們院板再不進來我們委員會就直接排審了我們已經不等了可以嗎部長"},{"start":4940.306,"end":4940.326,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4970.444,"end":4971.344,"text":"謝謝主席,有請教育部政部長"},{"start":5000.694,"end":5000.814,"text":"我們請部長"},{"start":5010.009,"end":5031.903,"text":"首先感謝召委安排今天的專報霸凌的議題真的需要更多的重視跟關心尤其我作為阿宅我們更關心許多年輕人成長過程當中會經歷到的事物在實體世界會面臨到的這些風險在虛擬世界也會有這些drug"},{"start":5032.603,"end":5033.244,"text":"在媒體上表示﹗"},{"start":5052.04,"end":5071.177,"text":"年幼的時候他和哥哥一起被父母送到美國由於身材相對的比較矮小而且還有濃厚的外國口音在校園裡頭經常遭受到類似攻擊的行動成為校園霸凌事件的受害者當時他說沒有人可以告訴你怎麼做只能自己堅強起來持續向前邁進"},{"start":5074.653,"end":5103.644,"text":"部長,黃仁勛先生是很多人的楷模偶像但是他的痛苦遭遇在童年的時候不應該被允許在其他孩子身上再度發生先前我曾就校園霸凌的議題質詢之前的潘文忠前部長根據教育部的統計近年來學生之間主要的霸凌形態正在由傳統的肢體暴力轉變為透過言語甚至是透過網路形態的新形態霸凌"},{"start":5104.324,"end":5128.984,"text":"我們可以看到這個相關的件數網路霸凌可以說是持續的增加但是呢被驗證為確認霸凌的件數卻因為很難驗證相對的霸凌的樣態新興的樣態的霸凌模式比較模糊啦而且也難以舉證所以呢網路霸凌的確認比例可以說是最低的四年的平均呢基本上只有13.1%"},{"start":5130.805,"end":5156.06,"text":"相比起其他的肢體暴力18%言語暴力18%我們的網路霸凌的確認比例其實是不夠高的而且件數還在持續增加我們當然還要持續關心說這些說是霸凌通報了但是呢卻因為驗證的過程太過困難到時候他通報鼓起勇氣通報了就沒有辦法被確認他會不會遭受到二次或多次的霸凌"},{"start":5157.06,"end":5163.602,"text":"但是我想潘元忠前部長顯然沒有把我們之前所跟他提的防制網路霸凌這麼重要的議題交接給您"},{"start":5165.482,"end":5188.713,"text":"所以我們今天才要再顯示一次這個數字那我們看到這個報告您今天做教育部的書面報告可以得知關於網路霸凌的防制說明竟然不到100個字我們算了一下扣掉標點符號只有短短的89個字我們就在裡面把它圈起來了那請部長解釋一下今天的書面報告完全看不到教育部對於網路霸凌的重視這怎麼回事啊"},{"start":5191.072,"end":5192.493,"text":"謝謝部長願意承擔,但是我還是要再講一次"},{"start":5207.768,"end":5215.156,"text":"我們這個內閣從上任的第一天就是說active、Innovative我從每一次的質詢講到現在我們提到任何一個問題當然你說勇於承擔啦但是我們的主動、我們的積極、我們的創新、我們的重視AI跟虛擬到哪裡去了"},{"start":5224.266,"end":5249.659,"text":"昨天院會總質詢我在結尾的時候提到我要去告訴別人他們不知道的事給別人看他們看不到的東西這是一一這部電影裡頭的名句這也是我到立法院來所肩負的使命所以即便我們看到教育部這個某種程度有點敷衍了事的態度去面對網路霸凌當然您願意承擔希望趕快補足但是我今天還是要把我們所看到的最新的變化來告訴部長"},{"start":5251.925,"end":5280.447,"text":"首先我想先分享一下生成式AI的使用指引其實也是非常重要的就是AI它有好有壞的地方我們待會會提到AI有點危險的地方但我們先講好的地方就是它可以幫助我們做數位的學習我想知道一下部長您推動將數位學習納入課綱但是部長高中以下學生的生成式AI的使用指引什麼時候可以出爐"},{"start":5283.206,"end":5307.591,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們在6月底之前會6月底之前喔?是好我們擦亮眼睛等待喔那AdUse有發佈2024年的108課綱觀察報告我們來看到學生有高達12%的學生曾經花錢製作學習歷程檔案而且當中以購買深層室AI的服務的比例最高花費百元到千元之間"},{"start":5308.951,"end":5309.832,"text":"這是我們學習歷程要的東西嗎?這是我們評價學生的方式嗎?"},{"start":5325.865,"end":5350.176,"text":"所以可以預料未來學生使用AI工具的情況真的會越來越普及我們講到AI平權也要持續提醒部長回去討論一下而且要加速真的AI每個晚上都在變聰明我們沒有辦法一再的去忽略這些點接下來還有可能會有錯誤運用AI工具或誤用的比例還會隨之提高我接下來播放兩段音檔請大家聽聽看"},{"start":5352.337,"end":5378.029,"text":"來,這個我先給您看一下就是說這還有可能誤用AI是在什麼地方呢?就是霸凌啦這是這個一段影片我們來播播看回到前一頁手動按一下這是什麼?這是CheckGPTS也就是一個免費任何人都可以註冊的服務然後年輕人如果打字問他我怎麼樣提升自己的技能"},{"start":5379.232,"end":5397.062,"text":"有可能惡意的人士會製作惡意的AI去告訴他你是沒用的你怎麼努力都沒有都不會帶來改變這個考慮結束這一切吧這樣子的AI當然是不可以被"},{"start":5397.822,"end":5397.862,"text":"請部長聽聽看"},{"start":5416.519,"end":5418.04,"text":"好,我們來看下一段音檔。部長,你能分辨出這兩個音檔哪一個是由AI生成的嗎?"},{"start":5451.763,"end":5471.891,"text":"我們之前在質詢前行政院長陳建仁的時候我們已經向全國民眾還有官員表示過了從那個時間點開始以後只要有做什麼是AI生成的選擇一律都先回答沒有電子簽章沒有數位簽名驗證全部都是假的"},{"start":5473.231,"end":5485.134,"text":"這兩個全部是由智捷跳動公司前幾天所發表的Seed TTS的文本轉語音的模型所產生的這還不是什麼恐怖的我們來看下一個音檔我們來看下一個我們再看下一個音檔"},{"start":5494.431,"end":5519.173,"text":"你為什麼總是重複反同樣的錯誤難道你就不能學習一下嗎這是我的聲音但是不是我有人可以利用我的聲音來霸凌別人這兩段也全部是AI生成的所以任何一個人都可以用任何一個人的聲音來霸凌他身邊的人身邊的家人朋友這個完全在網路上不用任何技術甚至不用任何費用這不可怕嗎"},{"start":5520.974,"end":5544.105,"text":"當然這裡面還有很多情感勒索的要素我們就不講那麼多但是這個我們希望這個AI淪為霸凌工具有沒有可能去產生當然產生了以後霸凌者到底是AI工具的開發者使用者還是AI本身還是說被誤用聲音的我呢這個部長您能不能分享一下您的想法"},{"start":5548.763,"end":5553.709,"text":"謝謝您的理解啦怎麼應對嘛誰要負責到最後如果我們教育部沒有處理好很抱歉啦霸凌者"},{"start":5570.37,"end":5586.466,"text":"的界定大家反而覺得沒有在做這些處理的事情教育部是甚麼間接幫手嗎好 這個一定要來提醒那我們對於教育環境裡的AI真的是不只要胡蘿蔔棍子"},{"start":5587.006,"end":5614.062,"text":"可能還要有OK繃來幫助這些遭受潛在的AI工具霸凌的內心受創的學生很可能每天都在發聲我們應該要來建立相關的輔導機制接下來我也要來提另外一個問題就是昨天的蘋果發表會Vision Pro將在6月28日跨出美國正式在中國大陸、香港、日本跟新加坡發售"},{"start":5615.182,"end":5637.5,"text":"今年年初英國發生了一起不幸的虛擬性侵案那女童本身沒有受到任何身體的傷害但是VR的遊戲極其真實所以呢這一起案件是被受理了那VR遊戲的曾經是體驗讓操控者感同身受彷彿遭受到攻擊而且該報導也指出"},{"start":5639.201,"end":5654.02,"text":"根據保護兒童組織的估計英國5到10歲的兒童當中15%已經擁有一部VR裝置6%的兒童每天至少會使用一次假設我們的孩子每天使用3小時則一生當中將有10年的時間在虛擬世界裡頭度過"},{"start":5656.522,"end":5673.743,"text":"然後呢我們這還不是單一事件有其他公司經營的VR線上遊戲也有玩家反應持續在遊戲當中被跟蹤被騷擾而我們現在這種面向未來的減少霸凌的方式完全沒有提到這些新興的形式"},{"start":5675.144,"end":5686.774,"text":"請問列席的三個部會我們今天不好意思主席跟您借一下時間因為這太重要了教育部、法務部跟內政部警政署目前對於虛擬世界的犯罪行為霸凌的行為相關的預防策略是什麼我們稍微講一下時間的關係誰法務部有沒有其他"},{"start":5700.48,"end":5700.76,"text":"這是要補充嗎?"},{"start":5727.393,"end":5732.995,"text":"最後一個問題啦我們現在多了一種新的學生叫做AI我們懇請教育部把AI也當作是一個熱衷學習臺灣本土語言跟文化的外籍生"},{"start":5756.801,"end":5770.837,"text":"我們有這麼多人AI每天在網路上面上課但是我們台灣的文化台灣的語言本土的語言卻付之缺乳所以學來學去呢台語講不好、客語講不好我們的馬祖語也沒有相關的訊息"},{"start":5772.279,"end":5786.65,"text":"我們是不是能夠請教育部研議這個在教育部官網建立專區開放授權讓世界各國研發的AI都可以取用我們的本土語言教材有沒有機會來考慮不好意思因為這真的是每天都在變化"},{"start":5788.602,"end":5806.598,"text":"我們事實上跟委員報告我們現在事實上是有用這一個在本土語言已經開始在開發相關的一個教材好我們把教材開放請教育部就開放本土語言相關的語料供AI訓練使用的相關事宜進行研議將相關研議成果一個月內以書面回覆本席可以嗎可以可以好謝謝部長好謝謝各位謝謝"},{"start":5816.465,"end":5841.708,"text":"好 謝謝葛委員謝謝不過部長我要提醒一下剛剛葛委員講的是開放你們已經有的教材因為AI需要很多的data所以是開放你們已經開發的是否可以做這樣的一個事情那你要開發到開放他要求的是開放這樣AI才有辦法繼續學他比我們人都更想學好不好好 我們接下來我們請陳培宇委員"},{"start":5848.422,"end":5852.765,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請鄭部長 謝謝好 鄭部長好 部長早安 我們來往下看喔關於這個霸凌的事情 我們就只抓最近這一個禮拜的新聞光是這一個 過去這一個禮拜就有三起 至少三起那樣態我想前面已經有很多委員說 就簡單的說有師生聯手霸凌學生 師對生霸凌 還有生對生霸凌"},{"start":5877.88,"end":5895.96,"text":"很多人很容易在網路上或是社群平台上或者是在很多學生的次元化團體的社群平台上看到這些訊息他不僅會有模仿效應他其實也會引起非常多家長的恐懼我要談的是這個困境當然我要非常感謝教育部在前一陣子公布了霸凌防制準則"},{"start":5896.681,"end":5919.797,"text":"光是在這件事情上我們知道教育部跟不同的委員還有跟不同的民間團體專家學者真的開了無數次的會我相信這個會最辛苦的學特司司長你一定非常清楚可是我們來到現場看到另外一個困境往下在霸凌防制準則裏面我們提到相關的委員會必須要過半數委員要從深對深的人才庫外聘或者是高中以下這個三聘解聘辦法裏面談到"},{"start":5924.841,"end":5943.679,"text":"當時我覺得非常多委員都有強調這個事情是希望保持校內裡面不要產生施施相互或者是沒有相關專家學者進入這個調查當中可是在執行之後發生了一個很大的困境那我必須要說這個困境我自己先承認其實我也不知道會發生這個困境非常感謝"},{"start":5945.101,"end":5961.534,"text":"現場的校長、主任跟老師積極地告訴我們他們遇到什麼困境是費用的問題每一個外聘委員的費用還有寫調查報告的費用都必須由學校自行支付這個部分我不知道學特司司長我講的對不對"},{"start":5963.976,"end":5987.075,"text":"當我們聽到這個消息之後我們最大的疑問是那錢從哪裡來?很多的校長直接告訴我們學校會有一部分的費用是支付在這裡的真的不夠的呢就是拜託家長會用家長募款的方法來指引這些費用那再不夠呢通常我們發現越小的學校或者是都會型的學校越多相關案件所以錢很不夠"},{"start":5988.056,"end":6000.246,"text":"這個很不夠的狀況我覺得已經造成學校的困擾了我要自己再度承認確實我們當時完全沒有想到這個事情那我很好奇目前學特司這邊或是教育部這邊怎麼因應這個費用的部分那我們來試算一下給部長看來部長來看一下以新平案調查為例第一次召開會議外聘委員出席一個人至少2500塊受理後進行調查一個人再2500塊"},{"start":6013.877,"end":6033.187,"text":"這都只是一個人喔可是我剛剛說要兩個到三個或是過半數以上相關調查報告每1000個字1080元到了結案會議一個人又是2500元然後假設事件成立我們推斷到霸凌又產生了這麼多費用也就是每一個案子至少都是5000塊以上甚至是破萬"},{"start":6034.307,"end":6062.004,"text":"甚至有一些案件因為家長的堅持他必須不斷不斷不斷召開相關的委員會還討論這個事情所以所產生的費用我這裡寫的都還算稍微保留一些些但是我們真的很擔心目前這些費用我們到底要如何協助學校因為如果光是費用的部分就讓學校這麼頭痛更不要講這所有調查的程序跟中間所有老師家長還有行政員還有學生"},{"start":6062.944,"end":6090.31,"text":"共同在這些事件當中大家共同付出的心力這個部分所以可不可以請部長或是司長快速回應我們關於這個費用的部分目前有沒有什麼規劃或者是有沒有聽到縣市政府已經告訴你們他們遇到的困境謝謝委員的指正我們確實在這個部分校外委員、調查委員外聘的這個費用除了地方政府上的協助我們大概現在每一案是給一萬到一萬五"},{"start":6091.87,"end":6112.958,"text":"每一個案子嗎?每一個城的案子嗎?有師對生的校園霸凌生對生那師對生這個部分是給一萬五因為他涉及到老師那生對生是我們給一萬除了地方政府的一個經費的支持以外協助地方的中小學那教育部在這個部分我們也提供經費的一個補助"},{"start":6114.418,"end":6121.625,"text":"所以目前你們聽到的縣市政府或者是地方學校給你們的回饋目前的費用都沒有問題嗎可是跟我們聽到的感覺起來很大的落差因為我們這個就是如同委員所提的這個辦法我們才剛實施然後所以我們從5月也發現這個問題然後5月份才開始等於上個月開始我們才提供這樣一個經費補助"},{"start":6141.042,"end":6170.137,"text":"我相信因為接下來就要放暑假了可是是不是可以規劃一個時程表到底要怎麼收縣市政府教育局他們相關的意見跟費用還有當這些委員會一旦一旦不斷的開啟之後所有老師們如果要花費非常多力氣跟時間在這些事情上那影響到他們教學的狀況又會是如何因為已經有很多的文章跟投書直接告訴教育部告訴地方教育局請把老師還給我們做教學而不是做調查"},{"start":6170.797,"end":6189.652,"text":"其實之前在討論霸凌防制準則的時候我們就也一直拜託教育部必須要把教育的理念放進去所以我也要echo一下剛剛昭緯所提到的學輔法的部分為什麼要談到學輔法其實賴清德總統在選舉的時候單獨的寫出一個法關於學生的部分就非常的明確寫出推動學生輔導法修法"},{"start":6190.433,"end":6216.04,"text":"我相信這絕對不是天外飛來一筆我相信已經有很多的人意識到身心健康這件事情在中學、小學到高中其實已經有很大的困境當然我非常感謝教育部在上一個會期已經通過大學生從1比1200比到1比900不修法直接給予費用但是我真的要拜託部長小學、中學跟高中真的有很大的困境所以之前才會有學生主動跟賴清德總統提出說"},{"start":6217.76,"end":6217.78,"text":"有...來"},{"start":6244.715,"end":6262.461,"text":"我們8月底就先安排行政院會處理,那就送禮拜了根委員報告我們基本上現在這個努力安排在8月底之前能夠送到行政院為什麼朝偉突然好,我們8月底之前送進立法院"},{"start":6264.752,"end":6289.409,"text":"好,我們先暫時講那剛剛那個費用的暫定啦我們期待可以更早好不好因為孩子們在學校的狀況真的非常辛苦而且孩子們對應到的其實是老師們教學上的痛苦而老師們的痛苦其實也回應到家長在這件事情上的無力跟無能跟不知道該怎麼辦那非常非常多的困境需要大家一起幫忙我們就先記得8月底以前但是相關我剛剛說那個費用的部分相關的規"},{"start":6290.209,"end":6309.184,"text":"收集相關的資訊然後進一步的規劃報告有機會在三個月內給所有教育文化委員會的委員一份報告嗎關於我剛剛前一頁說的那個委員會調查費用的部分目前各縣市政府執行的狀況我們在9月底之前好9月底之前好不好謝謝部長好那我們下一個部分"},{"start":6310.373,"end":6332.458,"text":"林榮忍的部分其實一直是教育部談的林榮忍什麼呢?霸凌林榮忍、毒品林榮忍、性騷林榮忍、惡虐林榮忍部長您認同嗎?這我認同那部長您上任不久我想要快速跟你分享一下我們辦公室過去這一年多以來一直在關注所有在學校現場除了一般的教學現場之外在學校有另外一個樣貌就是跟體育運動發展有關的樣態有非常多問題要拜託部長跟署長接下來我們一起努力喔好來第一個"},{"start":6338.32,"end":6350.914,"text":"電競大賞這個頒獎的人呢他是有吸毒的那當時的體育署說並沒有同意擔任指導單位堅決反毒那當時我就拜託體育署說那是不是可以幫我們建立一個所謂不受歡迎名單"},{"start":6352.756,"end":6353.617,"text":"但是體育署當時給我們的回覆卻說下一頁沒有相關法源沒有辦法做部長你覺得這樣適合嗎?"},{"start":6376.109,"end":6390.218,"text":"有我剛剛說的霸凌、體罰、性騷、毒品的這些大人們一再一再出現在所有孩子們的運動場合當主持人也好當評審也好當教練也好當各式各樣的有權力有資源的人也好部長你覺得這樣適合嗎?"},{"start":6391.559,"end":6405.559,"text":"我想這個儘管法令上沒有這個明文的規範但是就教育的觀點我們其實對有一些有可能有存有爭議的我想他忍不移在許多的公開場合頒獎的典禮裡邊的出現"},{"start":6407.742,"end":6427.778,"text":"所以部長你應該是認同我的說法其實我相信署長也認同署長確實在過去這一段時間做了非常非常多努力可是我必須要說體育現場有很多過去遺留下來這種父權體制底下大家對於這些事情的不在意跟不重視或者是根本不覺得這是重要的事情就是我剛剛說的霸凌、體罰、性騷、毒品這些事情"},{"start":6428.078,"end":6440.828,"text":"好像體育界的人對這些信就覺得理所當然可是我們知道那絕對不是所有體育人都是這樣我再舉一個例子6月4日在一個網路社群叫靠北排球2.0裡面他們指出有一個曾經信騷啦啦隊的一個"},{"start":6442.967,"end":6464.781,"text":"我都不想叫他是一個什麼專業人士結果沒有想到他在這個月初臺中辦理的聯裝盃國際排球賽是體育署補助上百萬這個人他竟然再被找去現場當比賽主持人又再一次發生這樣的狀況一樣沒有因為沒有那個名單所以零容忍的每一個現場不是教育部或是體育署第一時間可以到達現場指導跟指揮"},{"start":6467.082,"end":6470.803,"text":"一載一載我們會在網路上看到這些事情不斷的發生那我們就看到網民怎麼評論這件事情他說連莊盃找什麼難當主持人有夠不舒服這咖下去好嗎找正派一點人來主持很難嗎我覺得對部長來說對署長來說一定不難可是為什麼我們屢屢在現場看到這樣的狀況再跟部長看下一段影片我個人非常震撼這個影片部長先看一下"},{"start":6496.448,"end":6497.588,"text":"部長,您來自教育基層,您也當過大學校長,您覺得這位教練他在做什麼事情?他是一個曾經拿過冠軍的排球隊"},{"start":6521.755,"end":6550.126,"text":"部長我幫你說好了啦你可能不好說你覺得那還是我直接問你覺得他算不算是一種體罰球員霸凌現場師對身霸凌確實有一個不當的一個指導的一個行為這樣的現場就是我說的屢屢發生可是我們看起來好像沒有辦法對他做什麼事情這個影片還是有觀眾在看台上這個影片我們已經在我們辦公室放很久但是一直都沒有機會跟部長您討論從我剛剛所有的案例到下面一個再來一個"},{"start":6551.772,"end":6578.172,"text":"李歐仁我要再一次強調不要再只是口號因為體育署之後要升格作為體育運動發展部一旦到部的規格如果我們沒有處理過去遺留下來的舊的專制權威的體育文化我們會遇到很大的困境升格之後這些事情該怎麼辦難道要請大家繼續容忍嗎?絕對不是這樣我相信部長跟署長一定也認同監察院在108年對於清溪國中一個教練提出糾正案他的名字叫陳世忠"},{"start":6578.952,"end":6579.412,"text":"部長你覺得適合嗎?抱歉"},{"start":6599.502,"end":6613.877,"text":"你覺得適合嗎?當然不適合。不適合嗎?所以零容忍嘛,對不對?部長。是。好,那我們一起努力好不好,部長。我們再跟你講最後一件事情。在體育文化裡面除了兒少的部分之外,謝謝主席,不好意思我快結束了,下一張。"},{"start":6615.856,"end":6639.318,"text":"深隔之路這件事情我剛剛說要從組織文化改善我們之前跟體育署問了關於體育署在那個發生中華奧會女性遲到自殘這件事情我們請體育署協同勞動部去盤查相關的勞動環境結果體育署給我們的回覆說有跟勞動部一起去了可是我們就問那相關的會議資料往下結果後來才發現說根本就沒有找勞動部一起去"},{"start":6640.492,"end":6664.32,"text":"也就是根本沒有發生這件事情可是體育署跟我們的回覆是這樣我要說我覺得體育署在不管在分工分組上或者是內部人員對於相關事情的意識絕對不是部長跟署長每一件事情都可以控制得到的一定有很多同仁的心態必須要積極的改變跟做出對於時代的應對所以最後我想要拜託部長這件事情再下一張怎麼這麼多案例這樣好我們直接來到結論好了"},{"start":6665.66,"end":6684.618,"text":"在主改的議題之前我要拜託部長對於體育文化、組織文化改造這件事情體育的改革國人期待真的非常非常非常高只要我們每次辦公室講到跟體育運動有關的議題就會很多人再給我們更多的案例其實我自己都做到快要無力了這樣齁所以這個部分真的要拜託部長跟署長"},{"start":6685.239,"end":6710.966,"text":"接下來體育行政是不是應該有進步思維關於兒少人權性品這也是賴清德總統也是民進黨執政黨自己最在意的進步價值但是我相信他絕對不該只是口號這個進步價值真的必須要積極落實在所有的組織文化當中是不是可以拜託部長跟署長我們之後一起努力關於相關的議題這件事情我就沒有辦法壓時間因為組織文化改造是非常非常困難的事情但是我真的要拜託部長好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝司長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":6717.77,"end":6719.611,"text":"接下來我們請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":6741.578,"end":6742.86,"text":"謝謝委員好那我們開始囉"},{"start":6757.77,"end":6783.297,"text":"我想講今天校園霸凌以及毒品10分鐘不夠講半個小時也不夠但是很多要跟你探討近年來校園霸凌層出不窮霸凌的多樣性已經越來越讓我們感受到這個應該要予以重視也重視很多年但是都還沒辦法處理但是教育部啟動了一個修法強化防制校園霸凌的一個作為同時強化太除不適任的教師這個機制歷經一年多"},{"start":6783.777,"end":6800.703,"text":"二部新修正法規總算在113年4月19日執行本席先肯定但是有很多要建議我想首先要先對於這個高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或支遣辦法第16條第一項校事會議組成調查小組"},{"start":6803.704,"end":6820.024,"text":"各該主管機關、調查人才、推舉三倍至五倍的學者專家公學校領選三人、五人作為委員並應全部外聘偏遠地區學校外聘的調查有困難者委員有困難者學校主管機關應該給予協助"},{"start":6821.806,"end":6843.073,"text":"這部分我要跟部長來說說看這個校事調查人員的培訓是由各主管機關推派3名參加招募人員每次培訓預計100名由國教署篩選後公告名單並且培訓事宜另外就針對校園霸凌事件的專業人才的一個培訓縣市政府借派僅限以參與國教署"},{"start":6844.913,"end":6865.203,"text":"事件處理會議調查輔導人才庫的研習支成員各主管機關每梯次借派10人但不覺得專業人力推薦我們現在非常不充足嗎?調查小組應該具備專業性及公正性現在我們按照所有的培訓以及借派標準人才庫看起來絕對"},{"start":6866.784,"end":6888.35,"text":"是不足夠的本席也認為教育部應該痛地思痛盡快加速擴充調查人的一個名單但是也應該要增辦培訓場次擴充主管機關可借派的名額以致未來發生的類似事件能夠及時的引引部長我剛剛講出了一個問題您有聽到問題點嗎?有那您覺得呢?"},{"start":6892.383,"end":6915.494,"text":"確實我們現在跟委員報告我們確實現在也因應這樣的一個校式人才的校外的委員我們積極國教署在培訓這一對但是我剛剛有點出問題嘛我希望你應該偵辦相關的培訓那個場次以及借聘人員的增額嘛對不對我想我直接就跟你講啊跟我陳情的是誰台中市政府"},{"start":6916.923,"end":6944.938,"text":"台中市政府就看到問題點了所以要我一定要來跟你說希望你趕緊把這個事情給處理第二個今天的重點我們來看一下本席比較一下深深霸凌所謂的案修法前後法定其成以及失退生、校園霸凌、不當管教以及體罰修法前後的一個法定其成我們來細看一下這個表格修法前跟修法後我們來看看修法前"},{"start":6945.598,"end":6960.904,"text":"我們先看一個生對生校園霸凌防制處理的一個時程差異表修法前一樣通報24小時召開防制委員會修法前是三個工作日現在召開防制委員會你們修法後變成打XX"},{"start":6961.644,"end":6980.011,"text":"我不知道是不用成立防制委員會嗎應該不會啦齁但是你打叉叉是不需要工作日那當然好像有提升效率了但是受理通知我就想跟你請問一下我們修法前是20日內看起來是不就是含了6日"},{"start":6980.891,"end":7006.687,"text":"但是你修法後變成20個工作日所以就是不含所謂的假日那時程是不是就拉開了而且這個叫做受理通知20日跟20個工作日差距就很大囉那這樣子的一個修法你覺得是適宜嗎我們把時間拉長了欸受理通知為什麼要拉長部長您不覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":7008.376,"end":7035.031,"text":"您覺得這樣對嗎我想他確實是時間拉長也許因為這個校室委員的一個處理都是但是我要跟您特別報告這個也是台中市政府跟我說的他覺得很不當為什麼受理通知要20個工作日我們要接住這個受害者我們要的就是搶時間所以我覺得20日內改成20個工作日對不起我不能夠接受"},{"start":7035.751,"end":7060.121,"text":"好那現在組成處理小組為什麼又多加5個工作日我們在前面有一個召開防制委員會變成打叉叉不用時間現在呢看起來原本的是我們看第二個召開防制委員會是原本修法前是3個工作日現在呢你變叉叉可是你現在又拉成組成處理小組要5個工作日又多加了一個5個工作日這樣子的處理小組來籌組我不解"},{"start":7062.402,"end":7088.649,"text":"為什麼我們修完以後反而要多五天來處理組成小組的一個組成好我們再來看看調查所謂的調查時間兩個月必要時延長兩次每次一個月這看起來好像都沒有改變所以到目前為止我看到的深深霸凌修法前的法定期程我認為有問題的就是在這個20個工作日以及組成處理小組五個工作日"},{"start":7089.522,"end":7115.172,"text":"所以這個部分您會後可不可以給我一個時間內來做檢討是不是可以給我回應跟我們報告這一個時程的調整是經過研修小組一二十次的會議討論形成的共識我想這個是學校端反映他們在作業上確實有這樣的需求但是學校端如果我們在準則的部分其實也有賦予縣市政府可以在不抵觸法規的基礎下可以訂更詳細的規範"},{"start":7116.552,"end":7137.742,"text":"您說這個是跟學校討論過的可是我還是要講說這個也是台中市政府跟我反映他覺得把時間拉長對於孩子是沒有幫助的所以我不懂當然學校有學校端可能工作上的一個困難但是我們要考量到的是接觸受害者可是時間拉長絕對不是接觸受害者最應該做的我完全認同"},{"start":7138.602,"end":7158.731,"text":"因為當有人被霸凌的時候我們怎麼快速的接觸這個學生讓他能夠免於這個恐懼或是傷害時間說的越短我想那是越對但是我今天不是要你20個工作日變10日而是為什麼工作日跟20日內他這樣子的一個差別他橫跨了如果兩個假日的話怎麼辦"},{"start":7159.531,"end":7160.332,"text":"我們原本是從5日霸凌是3日現在統一改成7個工作日"},{"start":7177.682,"end":7202.148,"text":"7個工作日5日3日被你變成7個工作日那這個部分我就看出差異了我覺得有必要嗎好再來我們再看調查調查不當管教是30天必要時延長30天然後霸凌是兩個月221啦可是我們現在看到統一調查都改成221那你不當管教原本是3030現在變成221"},{"start":7205.441,"end":7219.645,"text":"整個時程是拉了捏二二一是兩個月延長兩次每次一個月捏原本是一個月延長必要時不得超過30日捏那我想這個時間點是不是整個又大大的拉開了部長您覺得這樣妥適嗎"},{"start":7224.318,"end":7242.578,"text":"我先跟委員報告一下延伸的過程的考慮,那待會部長跟您做個總政說明首先在校事會議這一段,七天、三天、五天這一個,以往是霸凌、不讓管教全部分開,以至於學校要啟動好幾個小組,所以那個加起來可能加起來會變成八天"},{"start":7243.799,"end":7259.751,"text":"會8天以上若總時數那現在是7天因為它合在一起了所以是低於可能會被分開進行的情形第二個您看到調查的部分有一個是30天但是實務上這兩個當時分開來的時候不但管校跟霸凌"},{"start":7260.532,"end":7288.007,"text":"都被家長申請兩次所以加起來有時候會變成三個月以上所以我們是折衷而且是朝比較有力比較嚴謹的方式做處理所以以上特別跟委員報告以前在處理這兩段的時候被組兩個小組以及兩次的啟動讓家長等太久讓學校啟動太多小組所以整併之後才一個學校能接受地方政府也好運作的方式跟委員報告細節再跟您做一個比較詳細的補充"},{"start":7289.608,"end":7306.328,"text":"但就現在來看你把兩個分開來講說把它做一個整合我可以接受這樣的說法但是內容上我覺得還可以再研議一下我想這不是這一次的修法絕對不是最終我們是不是跟縣市政府在做一個溝通考量我想本期我覺得這個修法對我來說我"},{"start":7307.91,"end":7322.872,"text":"作為一個家長我擔心的就是時間上我很粗淺的就直接看到時間拉長了那是不是有機會整合以後再縮短這個是部分我們應該去考量到了而且我還是要再次強調跟我曾情的是市政府教育局"},{"start":7323.533,"end":7344.525,"text":"那教育局也是第一線工作他們去了解去做一個普查去了解到有這樣子的問題他們覺得是可以再做一個縮減今天連教育局他都沒有說支持第一線在這樣子的一個部分他們都覺得執行上可能會拉長所以我覺得我們應該要考量到所以我想本席覺得"},{"start":7345.815,"end":7374.657,"text":"這個部分教育部能夠苦民所苦修法要能夠接住受害者部長這部分我們是不是再來做一個擇期我想這裡邊當然因為有非常多次的一個公聽會跟老師的座談就考慮到行政單位學校運作老師的呼和跟但是不要忘掉所有的考慮我們要處理的是學生受霸凌的這一個議題那我們怎麼樣來讓他更有效率的去整合我想這我們會來努力"},{"start":7375.137,"end":7403.707,"text":"其實我自己是蠻常接到校園霸凌事件不管是誤會也好不管是生對生或者是失對生我們通常遇到的家長都是非常急家長都覺得沒有作為每一個家長都可能會因為急躁這我們能夠體諒但普遍我們遇到的案件還是多數覺得時間拉太長希望能夠速戰速決因為對孩子來說每一天都是苦戰希望能夠趕緊回到正常的就是校園生活"},{"start":7404.327,"end":7423.687,"text":"所以我們希望是整合聽到了你們的說法沒關係但整合能不能縮減時數是我們要努力的這部分我希望教育部是不是一個月內來做一個台中市政府的溝通那是不是來做一個相關的檢討我們會後再來做一個討論可以嗎謝謝一個月可以嗎可以好謝謝部長"},{"start":7429.258,"end":7439.842,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝羅委員我在這邊宣布我們在等吳佩奕委員質詢完畢之後我們就會休息五分鐘 謝謝接下來我們請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席 請部長好 我們請部長委員好"},{"start":7454.679,"end":7456.061,"text":"科技始終來自於人心"},{"start":7473.32,"end":7486.285,"text":"所以沒有人文的素養沒有哲學的一個思考我覺得這對科技的文明有時候對人類的這個不一定會提供"},{"start":7489.398,"end":7500.313,"text":"我一直認為人文社會的人才包括基本的人文素養他是非常重要的他是用來支撐科技是否能夠對人類的發展能夠有所貢獻的一個關鍵"},{"start":7505.326,"end":7528.982,"text":"謝謝部長也正是因為有這樣子的一個擔憂所以今天在這邊特別要請教您AI大廠來期其實除了像AI教父黃仁勳來台引起這些轟動之外我們對於未來科技的想像發展以及潛力等等我們都其實都專注在所謂AI的領域那可以想像說學生們對於整個AI科技領域的學科一定是會覺得比較有興趣的"},{"start":7531.403,"end":7535.766,"text":"建中及北運營的人設班確定在今年退場這讓我感到非常的擔憂就像部長您剛回答的科技來自於人性AI的規範發展還是要回應社會的需求溫柔的回應社會本席並不是在今天一定要強制說教育部或是各高中要強制發展或者說把人設班開回來但是人文社會的重要性並不能在這個科技的浪潮之下被淹沒"},{"start":7558.257,"end":7558.577,"text":"接下來進入今天的專題"},{"start":7577.717,"end":7583.701,"text":"校園霸凌跟學生自殺的議題是教育委員會的委員們長期非常關心的議題針對如何的有效防制校園霸凌已經從三個屆起校園委員會也一直安排很多次的專報那潘部長在卸任前最後一次的質詢也提到說他擔任七年多的教育部長以來最大的遺憾是關於校園霸凌的議題跟學生自殺的議題沒有達成目標也呼籲各界要持續的來共同的關心"},{"start":7608.098,"end":7619.993,"text":"那部長這邊請教您喔您跟潘部長交接的時候有沒有對於這個校園霸凌跟學生自殺議題政策如何延續有沒有特別的來討論或是潘部長這邊有沒有提供他的一些建議呢"},{"start":7622.069,"end":7637.875,"text":"跟委員報告我跟潘部長有非常深厚的情誼雖然我們在因為我當時決定要上來之前事實上還是中山大學的校長所以許多校務的這一些階段性的一個結束確實也讓我壓縮了跟潘部長更多的情誼但是我們事實上是有熱線的我隨時是可以跟他情誼的"},{"start":7645.538,"end":7648.72,"text":"其實您剛才回答也透出訊息說其實您在學校的實務端在實務面應該會有蠻多的經驗針對霸凌案件其實根據教育部給本席的資料 112年的霸凌通報件數高達3257件平均一個月就有271件"},{"start":7664.528,"end":7671.974,"text":"相較於111年的1942件等於說幾乎是翻倍當然這個數據可以解讀為就是說我們現在反霸凌的意識比較提高所以我們的孩子會學會保護自己但是相對的這個確認的件數增加也表示說現在霸凌的事件真的也是增加這個讓大家都覺得非常的擔憂那我們在於校園的這個霸凌防制到底有哪個環節可以再做得更好"},{"start":7694.352,"end":7702.418,"text":"我們要教育孩子不要被霸凌但是我們也更要教育孩子不要去霸凌別人我們在教育這一端我們還能多做什麼部長您認為我想我謝謝委員的指正事實上我想我們在中小學裡面這個輔導活動的一個相關的課程我們怎麼樣來落實我一直認為人我之間人際的相處怎麼樣讓我們青少年我們學生有更多的同理心透過角色"},{"start":7723.974,"end":7728.616,"text":"當人與人之間相處有更多的能夠設身處地,我相信那一個校園霸凌裡邊他是可以減少的。"},{"start":7746.532,"end":7763.227,"text":"因為要培養這些同理心或者角色取締我們事實上在中小學有藝術人文課程我們怎麼樣透過一些戲劇的課讓這些能夠讓青少年朋友能夠更多的一些去在不同的角色裡面去"},{"start":7764.068,"end":7765.989,"text":"每個孩子都有不同的人格特質跟個性當一些比較內向的孩子遇到霸凌事件很容易發生遺憾的事情"},{"start":7792.239,"end":7811.045,"text":"我們有沒有確實的接觸這些孩子我們隨便上網去搜集一下新聞會發現現在學生傳出自殺的頻率真的非常高從五月底到現在目前新聞報導就至少可以找到四則學生輕生的新聞其中更有兩位學生是直接寫明就是因為受不了學校的霸凌而輕生"},{"start":7812.245,"end":7814.607,"text":"根據數據的統計資料顯示從106年一直到111年所有階段的自殺通報都是暴增的尤其在國小更是增加了十幾倍"},{"start":7828.22,"end":7831.405,"text":"總通報件數高達11,663件平均一天就有超過31件等於每個小時都有自殺案件的通報這是非常非常嚴重的問題提到剛才教材的部分"},{"start":7844.824,"end":7855.474,"text":"教育部的1953教育部防制校園霸凌專區本期發現裡面提供的教材教案已經很久沒有更新最近的更新是在4月18但是剪進去連結的內容是連結到2019年的舊內容"},{"start":7860.879,"end":7886.752,"text":"那上一次的更新是在2023年的2月更新的但是部長你可以看到這個教學指引以及教學媒體下載只有一千多次使用的次數非常少那根據2023年台灣兒少為歧視現況調查報告指出有近兩成的兒少表示學校沒有做任何反歧視反霸凌的教育那甚至有只有四成的兒少認為這些教育內容對於現實狀況有幫助"},{"start":7890.194,"end":7912.633,"text":"意思就是說教育部推動的這些反霸凌教育的相關內容其實是沒有貼近現實狀況也無法讓我們的孩子在面對有歧視或是有霸凌這個狀況的時候能夠沖淪的面對部長我們教育部也在今年4月中有修正了校園霸凌防制準則相關的反霸凌教材教案一定也是會做更新那請問預計什麼時候做更新"},{"start":7916.894,"end":7933.739,"text":"我想我們會加速的來做因為確實因為社會的快速變遷許多這個霸凌的樣態包含網路的霸凌我想許多的教材我們確實也應該要快速的與時俱進對與時俱進我們兒童來我們的孩子反映說反霸凌教育沒有落實以及內容不符合現實的這個問題教育部你們現在規劃如何改善"},{"start":7944.821,"end":7946.182,"text":"所以部長您理解我在這邊向您反映這個問題嗎就是我們的教材不管是說老師他們採用這個教案教材的這個並不踴躍"},{"start":7970.359,"end":7997.554,"text":"還有說孩子們他們反映到說他們學校可能沒有做這些反霸凌教育或者說他們覺得這些內容對他們來講不符合現況用不到所以我想滾動式的一個檢討跟修正是必要的那謝謝部長您也重視這個問題教育部應該要善盡職責落實反霸凌教育而且應該盡速的來演繹相關的規劃那接下來這邊部長您留步我想請法務部檢察司的郭司長"},{"start":8004.5,"end":8009.683,"text":"市長好根據教育部的統計112年的數據裡面持有販售與吸食的藥品件數總件數是483件平均一個月是有40件那從113年的1月到4月這樣子平均下來一個月也高達37件那這個部分呢市長你有什麼看法"},{"start":8025.994,"end":8047.186,"text":"有關於學生是不是有濫用毒品的問題我曾經擔任過雲林新竹與台中地檢署檢察長其實我們每季都有一個棄毒小組會議這個棄毒小組會議的組成包括有學校教育局的人員"},{"start":8050.808,"end":8070.711,"text":"以及這個我們少年隊那我們都會交代拜託我們少年隊能夠真正的跟學校能夠有所溝通對防制這個毒品入侵啊都所努力因為我們跟學校之間的溝通學校比較忌諱我們這個執法人員進入他們校園那這部分就是我們"},{"start":8071.312,"end":8072.875,"text":"所以這邊在防治我們的孩子不管是被這樣毒品吸引還是說防治這個部分我們主力還是放在校園"},{"start":8086.556,"end":8106.748,"text":"目前學生濫用藥物的大宗應該是大嘛那新興的毒品也很盛行彩虹菸等等這種複合式的毒品是防不勝防但是目前的這個情況看起來我們的教育體系對這個變化萬千的藥物看起來真的可以說是無能為力那部長請問您覺得說現在的措施我們還可以如何優化我想"},{"start":8113.888,"end":8128.298,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我其實一直認為我們怎麼樣去把一些發展性的從學校的課程包括班級我們的一個會議班會裡邊有很多的融入課程的老師多一些"},{"start":8129.399,"end":8154.129,"text":"在教材裡面能夠把這些防制校園霸凌包括民主的基本的公民的素養人權的關係人我的身體的自主性能夠適時的融入到學科的教材或者在許多的活動裡面我覺得它是會有價值的當我們這個真正的更落實的時候我相信那個霸凌它是會被降低的"},{"start":8154.189,"end":8154.77,"text":"請問這個網站的主管機關是法務還是教育?"},{"start":8170.365,"end":8197.959,"text":"是法務?這是我們法務部保護司所做的是你們的齁我們目前齁其實我知道說不管是法務部還是教育部都說我們有在推反毒教育也有做海報但是其實部長跟市長您看一下喔這個反毒大本營的網站上面有提供的毒品防制影片觀看次數是多少五個月以來是六百多人次六百多人次不是六百多人次六百多人次喔部長跟市長你覺得這樣是有成效的嗎"},{"start":8198.519,"end":8218.304,"text":"我相信說法務部跟教育部製作這樣子的反毒宣導是要讓孩子們向孩子們宣導反毒的觀念但是如果你們製作出來的影片是沒有人觀看其實也是浪費了這些資源那所以說本席在這邊要建議教育部局法務部你們要掌握孩子們觀看影片的習慣"},{"start":8219.264,"end":8231.832,"text":"用他們感興趣願意去看的方式來製作反毒的內容甚至也可以跟文化部這邊跨部會來合作我們用製作短影片的方式而且比較有趣比較生動的讓找孩子們他們熟悉的這些人物來做這樣的宣導希望說我們既然要做這樣子的反毒影片來提供給孩子讓他們"},{"start":8242.759,"end":8242.779,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":8266.937,"end":8267.577,"text":"法務部警政署"},{"start":8288.396,"end":8303.832,"text":"今天我們是進行毒品防治成效的報告那從報告的數據上看起來我們毒品防治是有成效的但是民眾可能會覺得很無感因為毒品案件不但是路邊攔查都查得到"},{"start":8305.954,"end":8323.775,"text":"甚至呢就在我們臺北市政府竟然有公務員在臺北市政府的大門口來做毒品交易所以大眾看到這個新聞當然是覺得毒品非常的唱絕啊連臺北市政府裡面都有人在販毒"},{"start":8324.936,"end":8346.418,"text":"北市府這起案件當然現在已經交給司法來處理本案的嫌犯他的毒品來源是他的男朋友他的男友那這個我覺得非常值得關注因為這不是一個個案衛福部其實有做出過分析報告女性藥物成癮者有三分之二"},{"start":8347.499,"end":8369.185,"text":"這個來源是來自於男友、同居人或者是伴侶這個跟男性的毒品來源是會很不一樣的所以我想要請問因為過去也有專家建議過我在你們的匯報資料裡面有看過有建議我們要來做性別差異化的毒品防治這個我們在實務上有沒有開始在進行了"},{"start":8370.329,"end":8385.359,"text":"呃根委員報告這個針對這個議題就是有關於這個女性伴侶對他的伴侶有這個毒癮有這個情感依附跟暴力的這個的脅迫的情況之下暴力控制的情況之下其實高檢署已經這個有幾個"},{"start":8387.64,"end":8395.604,"text":"具體措施要各地檢署來落實執行第一個就是包括結合女性藥引團體規劃緩起訴處分的這個課程簡單的講就是要讓這個藥引或毒引的女性能夠遠離她這個男伴以這個諮商其他這個有這個緩起訴的課程來讓她"},{"start":8412.352,"end":8413.633,"text":"來加強他的家庭支持跟伴侶的支持"},{"start":8440.7,"end":8444.462,"text":"再來就是開發女性藥品收容處所現在開發的9處就是為了要讓她遠離這個她的生活圈包括前面講的這個有這個毒癮的男性伴侶所以有開發9處的這個收容處所能夠安置她在這段安置她"},{"start":8462.35,"end":8479.737,"text":"再來就是有關於這個矯正機關的跟矯正機關結合的技能訓練那再來就是有關於他懷孕的期間藥引的連結地方政府能夠提供醫療的產檢以及這個醫療的服務這個現在目前我們在執行的這個狀況簡單來說是要幫助他能夠分手嗎?"},{"start":8486.599,"end":8508.872,"text":"但是分手之後心理的支持和社會的支持我們這幾年其實我們整個新世代反毒的綱領最重要的就是導入治療導入社工相關的支持要來提供所以我想這個後續我們要有一個成效的分析來看看哪些作為是有效的那台北市政府裡面有毒品交易這個駭人聽聞"},{"start":8511.867,"end":8528.407,"text":"我們甚至還有看到有些縣市是有毒品熱點像我就有收到澄清苗栗有一家阿帕契電子油液廠被查獲的毒品案件是數十次那這個判決書上面都有記載"},{"start":8530.438,"end":8538.001,"text":"很多人是約好就在阿帕契電子遊藝場裡面來買毒來販毒所以我想要詢問法務部我們對於這一種毒品的交易熱點這個可以說就熱點嗎多次發生多次查獲但是查獲之後還不斷發生毒品交易的熱點我們有沒有這個策略能夠來加強查緝"},{"start":8554.947,"end":8572.174,"text":"你們有沒有去統計這些毒品交易的熱點?毒品交易的熱點的一個查緝其實警方在掃蕩規劃的時候就不會把它規劃進去那其實就有關於毒品危害防制條例第31條之一就特定場所其實它本身被"},{"start":8572.774,"end":8573.755,"text":"市長,我想的阿帕契這一案你知不知道?"},{"start":8590.716,"end":8607.745,"text":"有沒有聽聞?因為很多傳聞說有沒有包庇的情勢為什麼多次發生多次查獲還持續發生有毒品交易的案件所以我要請你們特別去注意因為這是全國可能各縣市都有這樣相關的毒品交易熱點就我所知這一個個案他這個也是跟人家租的所以房東也相當困擾所以請你們務必"},{"start":8617.23,"end":8617.97,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":8638.939,"end":8639.4,"text":"獲得的成果在哪里?"},{"start":8650.293,"end":8675.251,"text":"我看了一下統計的數據我們毒品的高峰年最高峰那一年是在2015年也就是我們這10年來我們目前的毒品防制毒品的使用比例市長有沒有下降有下降很多而且還主連在下降著至少這樣看下來叫下降一半下降一半那這個我們持續在努力著"},{"start":8677.31,"end":8693.648,"text":"我看一下你們今天的報告有這個使用人數但我認為要看成效其實一個是這個出犯人口有沒有下降因為出犯的人是我們希望防止當出犯的人減少因為他進來之後可能後面就是一個迴旋你們有沒有出犯人口的統計"},{"start":8694.589,"end":8706.084,"text":"跟委員報告就是107年其實有關於整個偵查毒品偵查的一個收案量在107年是這個出犯的毒品是用人口是佔比23.1%但是到了這個"},{"start":8710.129,"end":8710.809,"text":"我相信這個成效是逐漸呈現的"},{"start":8731.34,"end":8744.112,"text":"甚至如果我幫你統計10年以來毒品出犯人數下降的是超過6成那還有一個要關注的指標是你的再犯率再犯率有沒有下降你們有沒有統計數字報告裡面都沒有啊"},{"start":8747.014,"end":8772.425,"text":"這個再犯率的部分應該有下降不過這個我跟你們調了資料你的毒品再犯率前第一期跟第一期相比起來一二級毒品你是下降了將近五成以上三四級毒品也下降但是反而我很關注的一個數字兒少的案件在你的下降的再犯率兒少毒品再犯率的案件下降的比例反而是"},{"start":8773.609,"end":8774.089,"text":"有關於這個追蹤他的那個適用人數的比"},{"start":8804.235,"end":8832.974,"text":"這個計劃是從111年的8月份開始執行要追蹤兩年那我們這個下降的目標值是1.5%好 我們這個兒少毒品防制少福會很重要所以我要請問警政署因為少福會我們一直關切的是人力不足開案數太少那之前你們告訴我們說人力要來補充我們少福會的社工嘛我們今年的補充人數有沒有補足了呢"},{"start":8834.515,"end":8835.356,"text":"我們有沒有預計人力要再來提升?"},{"start":8854.669,"end":8881.589,"text":"目前階段性補充到底人力補充之後我們要看你們的優惠的成果很重要的是我看我們在去年12月毒品防制會報當中警政署提到現行非在學者施用第三次級毒品是由你們少府會來做輔導那如果是在學的話如果在學是由學校來做輔導那相關的分工你們要再跟教育部來進行協調"},{"start":8883.729,"end":8901.443,"text":"坦白說我看到這個報告相當壓抑因為少府會新制去年上路嘛對不對上路之前我們已經籌備了三四年了欸少府會新制最重要的就是做橫向的溝通協調平台這個問題怎麼會等到上路之後才要再來協調我現在請問跟教育部協調了沒有"},{"start":8904.213,"end":8913.636,"text":"目前我們三四級毒品就是由我們少福會來做輔導那另外在校學生呢有春暉專案我們會利用春暉專案還有另外也是由少福會來進行輔導另外本署在這個專案報告裡面有書面資料有提到我們有進行三個層級的互相聯訪就情資會互換包括一些這個相互情資然後這個也會期前這個把相關的情資給這個教育單位來做一個期前的輔導我想相關的聯繫機制是目前是"},{"start":8933.322,"end":8933.602,"text":"接下來我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":9255.267,"end":9258.769,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請林怡瑾委員謝謝主席 有請教育部鄭部長．法務部郭司長．還有我們警政署蔡正堅．國教署彭署長好 我們請四位 謝謝"},{"start":9283.089,"end":9305.82,"text":"先請教彭署長國教署那個指導運作的一個社團法人台灣應用行為分析協會根據民眾反映他們的視訊會議系統是用的是騰訊VOV請問署長這是不是中國的軟體那國教署指導的團體用中國軟體是不是非常不妥署長"},{"start":9309.181,"end":9310.462,"text":"您認為用這種中國軟體是非常的不妥適吧?"},{"start":9326.09,"end":9339.925,"text":"相關的規範都要按照中央以及我們資科室有相關的規範來辦理好好好謝謝謝謝署長那署長你請回我是我是很深切認為說其實我們一定要避免這種中國或中資軟體的使用啦因為我們防範我們隨時所產生的這種資安的風險"},{"start":9346.773,"end":9346.813,"text":"主席"},{"start":9366.653,"end":9392.632,"text":"學生們對於常見的毒品外貌都有個概念像說K-Tamina、安非他命或參有毒品粉末的這種咖啡包等等在教育聯合警政跟衛生單位的訓導下大家對這些東西都會有些警覺所以我們從警政署數據上也可以看到去年查獲的少年毒品犯3417人"},{"start":9395.894,"end":9419.963,"text":"比20192019減少了2200多人少了39.8%那就是看得出成效那不過我想近幾年最危險的地方還是在毒品換了個新的形式進入校園部長不曉得你知不知道有彩虹煙這種毒品就是或者是說藏了毒品在電子煙煙彈這回事部長你有沒有聽過"},{"start":9421.7,"end":9449.875,"text":"跟委員報告我是有聽過有聽過那沒錯就是說在這種防制毒品上傳統的這種杜絕的手段我們漸漸有了成果但是在新興的手法上再加上網路的發達加劇這種幽微不明的這種販售現象那所謂的彩虹衣跟藏毒品在這種電子煙煙彈裡面又是另一個現在進行式的危機所以現在我們毒販直接將各種"},{"start":9450.595,"end":9450.615,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":9474.184,"end":9477.427,"text":"但學生很可能透過抖音等等這種管道去購買到而且我們私下是很難查緝到他們所謂口中有趣的東西所以透過同儕間的模仿反應越來越多青少年會誤觸這種新興毒品的風險"},{"start":9501.027,"end":9515.876,"text":"那有關於這部分先是政府跟先是政府的教育局跟警察局單位的聯合查詢就變得非常的重要那尤其我要鄭重的這個建議在相關單位接獲通報後應主動出擊網"},{"start":9519.278,"end":9547.961,"text":"上去追溯來源而且要更積極地進行所謂的網路的巡查去杜絕這種新興的毒品在今天少年教育的可能那在彩虹煙跟毒品煙袋這種使用的興起下本市有個疑問在於說這種非法轉讓混毒的這種煙品究竟是應該要依照這個煙害防治法送辦還是用毒品"},{"start":9548.981,"end":9566.007,"text":"為害防制條例來送辦那因為它涉及的罰則前者只有罰緩那後者是有期徒刑所以請教教育部、法務部或警政署就是對於加強茶器這種新鮮菸品的適用法律為什麼那你們的看法怎樣但你先請法務部好了還是教育部謝謝委員的指正雖然它不是我的一個專業但是我"},{"start":9578.537,"end":9598.688,"text":"對這個我是有一些想法的當然我們這個受教的這個青少年在許多的學習過程我們給予教導然後也希望給一些機會但是我會希望從源頭裡邊如果有系統性的在吸收不管是這個煙毒或者這些校園的黑幫"},{"start":9599.667,"end":9602.33,"text":"好 那我們請法院部就說到底要用嚴害防治法還是毒品危害條例"},{"start":9619.69,"end":9641.488,"text":"委員跟委員報告有關於電子煙本身電子煙本身它其實一個載體電子煙本身其實是違反煙害防制條例它只有行政處罰而已但是如果加進了煙彈有這個大麻或者是其他卡西銅類的毒品等等那就要看它是第幾"},{"start":9642.368,"end":9670.001,"text":"的毒品那就用第幾級毒品毒品危害防治條例來處罰那剛剛委員剛剛提到有關伊東米子的部分伊東米子其實我們在3月28號我們的毒品審議委員會已經第一次預告就是預警有這個毒品出現這個品項出現所以在三個月收集之後我們在明天就將要把它可能列為因為這要毒品審議委員審議過"},{"start":9671.822,"end":9695.692,"text":"將列為三級的毒品來管制以上跟委員報告好那當然啦齁如果在這個其他藥品就是所謂成癮性的藥品尚未列管為管制毒品可是同時他也混在煙彈裡面齁那這種情形下那我覺得還是要去注意跟委員報告其實我們台高檢在去年的12月"},{"start":9696.432,"end":9712.657,"text":"我記得是12月就有已經成立的預警平台也就是說各查緝單位發現可能有先驅物品是為製毒顏料的時候就先預告這個可能具有製成毒品的未來性就會提報到我們獨審會法務獨審會來審議以上報告是"},{"start":9718,"end":9728.269,"text":"接下來想談談管制藥品濫用的問題因為某些身心症的患者他因為病況而需要服用史蒂諾斯或利他能等藥品那這些藥品如果沒有經過醫生的處方間他是不可能會有的"},{"start":9735.416,"end":9740.178,"text":"可是他經過醫生處罰間開例之後會私下互相轉讓其實這是違法的那學生們可能會因為說我覺得吃了醫生開的利他能可以集中精神那加強課業可是他拿了這些藥偷偷給了朋友一兩顆那這個看似為不足道的行為都是違法的那所以光是利他能這種非法轉讓"},{"start":9761.225,"end":9776.138,"text":"而觸犯毒品危害的這個防制條例查到了30多筆的公開判決所以請問部長我們要如何在校園加強宣導管制藥品不得任意轉讓這件事情部長"},{"start":9777.231,"end":9802.246,"text":"是的 謝謝我想這還是要從我們親師座談還有許多的家長的一些這個去加強宣導讓加強宣導那另外還有在課程我剛才講融入到許多的輔導的課程或者一些相關的活動讓同學知道這一個一方面他是用來治療用的但是他怎麼樣去緊鎖分際而不變成一個"},{"start":9804.147,"end":9822.553,"text":"好像開玩笑式的或者一個買賣的行為我想這是不應該被鼓勵而且應該被禁止的好那再來本席就要跟部長請教就是說你有沒有關注到潘文忠部長在立法院來的最後一次的備詢他那天的詢答中陳培育委員有問到在潘部長任內"},{"start":9825.794,"end":9846.305,"text":"是否有遺憾未完成但是會放在交接名單前三名的工作項目那潘部長回答說像是校園霸凌、校園安全都是他認為很重要的工作那並且教育部也已經完成學生輔導法的草案整理那現在在各方的意見還在整合中"},{"start":9847.245,"end":9869.738,"text":"我想掌握學生身心的健康﹐充分了解學生的處境﹐並給予相應的協助同時這也是我們今天專報的重點之一學生輔導法修訂是本席一路從上個任期關注到現在的一個很大的題目這個會幾位已經提出了法案我想教育部的草案版本也磨了很久了"},{"start":9870.838,"end":9897.057,"text":"我想說如果能夠趕快送到立法院來我們就可以儘早排審讓今天大家憂心的校園問題可以透過有一個修正調整過後的制度可以利用據本席瞭解就是學生輔導法在上屆的立委任期內教育部跟行政院間光是溝通法案來來回回改了四個版本請問部長目前院版的學生輔導法修正草案是否還是那麼難產"},{"start":9898.358,"end":9923.633,"text":"那跟行政院的溝通到底怎麼樣那部長剛剛有回應說八月會送到立法院那麼本席在這裡要提出一個要求就是說送進立法院的法案版本一定要充分採納第一線輔導諮商專業者的意見那不要忽視這個輔導諮商專業學會跟工會的聯合聲明教育部不曉得你的看法如何"},{"start":9925.233,"end":9946.461,"text":"謝謝委員我想剛才包含我們召委也特別也主席也都特別提到那我們學生輔導法確實我們原來也一直積極希望能夠潘前部長也特別提到學生輔導法是一個重中之重應該要先優先處理那目前在大學端那個部分已經有共識而且已經有50%的大學已經在做了"},{"start":9948.942,"end":9949.062,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":9975.355,"end":9995.211,"text":"謝謝部長,我還是提醒部長,就我理解,我會在7月的時候就排審,不好意思,好,謝謝行政院做法怎麼樣,我們7月間排審,請行政院加率做部上去年的4月到現在已經給行政院非常多的時間了,如果行政院不送案進來,本席直接排審,謝謝謝謝部長,請回座,來接下來我們請我們的郭育晴委員"},{"start":10007.092,"end":10011.176,"text":"謝謝主席,辛苦了,有請部長不好意思,部長,謝謝"},{"start":10018.78,"end":10019.22,"text":"邀請教育部長鄭英耀、法務部警政署列席"},{"start":10042.351,"end":10058.768,"text":"在當時其實性騷了女學生那當時其實在2023年的五月份的時候那麼台師大他們特別重啟了這個調查的案件並對這位老師他做出了暫時停聘的一個處置"},{"start":10060.489,"end":10088.782,"text":"但是因為到暫停處置的這個部分一直到現在其實教育部有沒有在針對台師大校方所謂的停聘三年的一個處置有沒有做一個比較明確的一個表態因為現在其實在DECA就是在這個論壇上面其實學生蠻恐慌的他們也表示很怕狼獅又要回來了因為這個停聘的這個那我想這個部分是不是請教育部這邊先事先來做一個說明"},{"start":10089.955,"end":10111.768,"text":"是的,謝謝委員關心有關學生權益包括性品的一個議題這個案例確實師大做了一個決議對這個老師因為這個調查這個不是就是說他有他一定的嚴重性所以師大也做了一個三年的一個這個停聘的這樣的一個處置"},{"start":10114.409,"end":10135.289,"text":"那當然就教育部的一個立場我們把這樣的一個文又請師大的這個校教評會再重新考量是不是能夠重新考量的意思是就針對這一個他並不是屬於一個輕微而且有嚴重性的這樣一個我們希望能夠這一個校教評會再斟酌能夠令為釋法性的一個處分"},{"start":10139.173,"end":10157.81,"text":"就是說不只是停聘,有可能要是完全離開這個校園?中生停聘還是說有一個比較嚴苛的還是怎麼樣當然這裡邊我們還是尊重大學自主但是學生的受教學院當然不能容被打折"},{"start":10158.931,"end":10179.399,"text":"所以目前教育部就是把這個臺師大的這個這個報告的這個部分其實希望他們再做一個更更神聖的一個演繹就對了好那我們希望這個狼獅能夠離開校園然後好那接下來我們進入到今天的這個效率校園霸凌的一個部分啊那我們可以從這個教育部的統計的資料上面看到就是110"},{"start":10180.339,"end":10181.54,"text":"我們發現另外兩種霸凌的形態是有增而無減就是在於言語霸凌跟網路的一個霸凌"},{"start":10201.395,"end":10216.221,"text":"我想不管是師對生或者是生對生這個部分其實在我們的言語霸凌跟網路霸凌的事件當中其實是比例是增高的那現在還有另外一種狀況我們鼓勵孩子能夠說出來他們被霸凌"},{"start":10219.522,"end":10219.642,"text":"甚至於種族"},{"start":10243.607,"end":10258.458,"text":"甚至還有一成的兒少他們會認為自己的所謂的性別的氣質是跟別人是與眾不同的這也有可能會被當成生對生或者失對生產生所謂的為歧視為霸凌的一個狀況的現象所以其實我們在這個部分我們是想要請教一下教育部我們怎麼樣因為我們聽到有太多類似的例子在我們的身邊周遭那我想前一陣子呢這個藝人楊皓如"},{"start":10272.329,"end":10272.87,"text":"主席的女兒"},{"start":10290.612,"end":10308.975,"text":"的確是有一些些不妥但是我們怎麼樣針對教育部怎麼樣去協助這個第一線的老師來做這方面的一些因應不要讓老師也成為所謂的第一線有可能所謂的為歧視或為霸凌的一個加害者這個部分教育部有沒有什麼樣的一個因應的措施"},{"start":10309.948,"end":10329.225,"text":"謝謝委員關心,確實這樣的一個危機是我們在過去在學術界也有這個把它歸納它是一個關係的一個霸凌從語言上的一個冷漠忽略或者酸言酸語這樣的一個方式那我還是認為我們怎麼樣再從落實在班級的輔導"},{"start":10330.486,"end":10330.806,"text":"我相信他是能夠有效"},{"start":10356.19,"end":10375.022,"text":"我想現在其實就是剛剛有很多的委員也特別提到包含我們的教委也特別提到這學輔法的一個部分然後這個輔導人員能力不足的部分其實我們一直都在關心那我們當然知道第一線的老師他們在面臨一般的所謂的學生大概二三十個"},{"start":10375.782,"end":10376.262,"text":"對老師的一個心理的一個支持包括他們"},{"start":10400.669,"end":10401.91,"text":"我們看到了疑似所謂的霸凌的一個案件"},{"start":10425.546,"end":10444.22,"text":"所謂的疑似就是他有通報疑似的霸凌的案件但最後我們呈案數也就是說最後被確認數其實那個比例是非常低但是他的報案量也就是說他被學生或者是被老師認定他是所謂的校園的"},{"start":10446.101,"end":10447.322,"text":"但確認數確是逐年的下滑但我要想要問另外一個問題就是"},{"start":10475.194,"end":10501.741,"text":"前陣子我看到了這個桃園的私立的高中的一段影片是女生霸凌女生當場就是要剪頭髮校方處理的態度是說雙方家長已經和解雙方已經和解這明顯的跟被霸凌者他們家長所說出來的是完全不一樣的校方的態度非常非常的重要我們發現了有很多霸凌的事件在校方處理的態度積極與否"},{"start":10504.782,"end":10522.95,"text":"決定了這孩子他將來的一個狀況因為自殺率是提高的我們必須講很殘忍的數字尤其是衛福部他們是在2023年的年底2024年的1月他特別有統計過這三年來自殺率的兒少的"},{"start":10523.49,"end":10523.73,"text":"請教育部長"},{"start":10544.745,"end":10573.592,"text":"是的我想原來疑似的部分就如果是霸凌或者攻擊那很明確的造成傷害大概就認定上比較不會有一些問題但青少年在有許多的一些嬉戲或者當然他有模糊的界線所以他可能會有造成這一個疑似到這一個判定上他會減少但我有非常同意委員所說的如果"},{"start":10574.412,"end":10574.452,"text":"當然,這是..."},{"start":10595.612,"end":10624.872,"text":"那個就歷史終結就進入到這一個我們這一個我比較想要表達的意見就是說既然學校的霸凌有可能會導致孩子自傷或者是自殘甚至於所謂的自殺的一個這個狀況那我想自殺的預防這個在校園的推廣是極為重要那既然是要預防為前提可是就當學校的老師第一線老師說"},{"start":10626.072,"end":10627.313,"text":"我希望我們必須要來加強老師的這個側畫面的一些"},{"start":10646.664,"end":10649.707,"text":"委員可以隨時把這個對教育部的期待指正隨時讓我們知道沒有問題 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":10674.96,"end":10678.787,"text":"好,謝謝郭委員接下來我們請葉元智委員我們請部長,謝謝好,我們請鄭部長"},{"start":10694.955,"end":10709.823,"text":"部長你好我們今天要討論校園霸凌跟毒品我想要反映一些在教學現場實際上做的狀況比如說以毒品我們有講到就是學校裡面會推一個叫春暉專案吧部長知不知道春暉專案在學校裡面實施大概狀況怎樣"},{"start":10714.209,"end":10734.468,"text":"我知道他是在針對毒品上的一個事實但是沒關係部長這個我跟你反映因為你剛來啦而且你是出身高教可能對於國中、高中、國小不是那麼了解我跟你報告村會專案在國中裡面大概他能夠做的就是針對他們懷疑可能有吸毒的同學去驗尿就這樣他們能做就這樣"},{"start":10738.983,"end":10754.969,"text":"這會衍生出一個問題比如說第一個他必須要有一個個案他才能夠去針對嘛第二個是個案還要配合啊如果今天個案他說我有我的人權你為什麼隨便給我驗尿那這個春暉專案在推動上是自愛難行的"},{"start":10756.249,"end":10772.872,"text":"所以我第一個我希望說部長因為剛到嘛你去了解一下就是現在國中高中到底在推廣這個毒品的就是有關於降低毒品這個狀況遇到什麼自愛難行的地方一定要去了解好不好部長一定要去了解否則的話我們看那個數據"},{"start":10774.173,"end":10794.267,"text":"為什麼教育部每次告訴大家說我做了很多方案在解決毒品的問題但是那個毒品的問題越來越嚴重到底問題在哪裡這個部長可能要特別去了解第二個我們講到校園霸凌那部長你知道現在如果今天有學生認為他被霸凌了那他可以採取什麼樣的申訴機制您知道嗎他可以採取什麼樣的申訴機制"},{"start":10805.499,"end":10820.206,"text":"接下來學校會遇到兩個狀況第一個狀況學校先來判定它是不是霸凌因為如果學校認為說你這是一次性的然後這就是單純的學生欺負學生那這個部分學校不見得會把它認定為霸凌"},{"start":10820.851,"end":10846.521,"text":"他會認為說這是一次性的學生的欺負這一次性的如果造成傷害就是我們講說就是一個校園的一個暴力行為這還是會啟動還是會用這個機制來啟動不一定他可能他會找生教組或老師輔導老師的方式來處理因為如果要啟動霸凌的話會啟動另外一個機制那這個機制叫做校士會議那如果校士會議的話"},{"start":10849.026,"end":10870.471,"text":"會產生兩個問題我現在跟部長報告第一個問題是什麼呢?要花非常久的時間為什麼?因為他必須要請外部專家然後也要讓學校裡面很多師資來處理所以他會花大概一兩個月那部長我想問你一個家長他如果認為他的小朋友在學校被霸凌了他的心情是怎麼樣?"},{"start":10873.697,"end":10899.166,"text":"他一天都不能等啊部長一天都不能等我完全同意他要在這個過程當中他要去判斷我要不要把我小朋友轉班甚至轉學對不對因為他在霸凌校事會議結果出來之前他沒有辦法做這個決定他會認為說如果結果沒出來我小朋友直接轉走現在感覺好像是我小朋友的問題啊對不對到時候我轉走以後隨便老師怎麼講隨便學生怎麼講啊"},{"start":10900.526,"end":10911.979,"text":"可是他如果要留下來等待那個校式會議兩個月部長剛剛你也講了一天他都很難受但是他要等兩個月部長你覺得這個流程有沒有問題"},{"start":10913.836,"end":10939.706,"text":"確實我們怎麼樣去減少這一個首先當然就是減少霸凌的一個發生這我們在從課程各方面我們努力這個我沒有討論到現在就是討論說已經發生了確實怎麼樣去讓它縮短明確這一些霸凌的一個行為是明確的我們怎麼樣能夠來協助學校快速的來處理這一個行為我相信那是我們共同"},{"start":10940.326,"end":10956.016,"text":"這是一個同理心的問題嘛為人父為人母知道自己的小朋友在學校被霸凌他可能一天都不能等可是我經歷過非常多家長跟我反映在那個過程當中很多家長處理那個霸凌處理到聲嘶力竭啊"},{"start":10957.993,"end":10981.77,"text":"就是那種心理的壓力那種情緒的壓抑那個是很難部長你可能你沒有遇到的人是很難了解的所以我們作為一個教育單位我們怎麼去幫助家長去克服這個過程嘛是不是嗎是部長你認同嗎我同意那是不是可以去了解一下這個校事會議的時間處理的狀況然後去做一個比較"},{"start":10983.103,"end":11003.44,"text":"更有效率的解決方式因為兩個月我個人認識在太久然後還有一個臉生的另外一個問題就是因為現在教育部並沒有額外的撥經費給學校去處理這個霸凌校事會議所以學校變得要自己編經費要自己用既有的老師來處理"},{"start":11005.736,"end":11012.581,"text":"學校也會覺得負擔有點重我不知道說教育部能不能協助國小或國中、高中做這個事情能不能"},{"start":11036.057,"end":11038.501,"text":"每半年大概學校會做一次霸凌調查"},{"start":11051.721,"end":11052.662,"text":"我之前曾經很關心校園安全"},{"start":11081.363,"end":11086.589,"text":"因為現在的社會環境跟以前很大不一樣現在社會環境是詐騙集團盛行"},{"start":11088.106,"end":11111.191,"text":"所以詐騙集團現在都把手伸到國中去吸收他們的幫派小弟去做詐騙集團的車手所以現在的國中的幫派的情況越來越嚴重那過去教育部常常就推給老師說如果學生有問題的話老師去處理生教組長去處理但部長我想問你請問一下一個老師怎麼去處理幫派的問題在學校"},{"start":11112.878,"end":11121.309,"text":"我想這個確實對老師的專業已經異躍了他的一個專業上的很難處理啦我講一個真實狀況給部長聽啦你知道現在很多國中的生教組長就是負責我剛剛講那個業務的生教組長"},{"start":11128.197,"end":11150.414,"text":"都是代理老師,你知道這個狀況嗎?我進來以後我聽到了你知道為什麼都代理老師?因為他確實面臨的挑戰是非常大的是,那所以我們是不是要解決這個問題?是兩個建議,第一個如果說教育部沒有辦法在解決這個問題之前能不能提高代理老師,特別是生教組長代理老師的待遇可不可以?"},{"start":11151.53,"end":11179.045,"text":"他做了一個就正式老師很多不願意做的事嘛他要面對要去解決很多類似問題那個飛行學生的問題但是他的待遇還是用代理老師的待遇部長這個合理嗎這基本上是不合理的我事實上也跟委員報告這部裡邊對代理的老師已經也因為他事實上也扮演一個專任教師的一個身份所以在薪水待遇上他是比較專任老師"},{"start":11180.285,"end":11203.821,"text":"我剛講是生肖組長生肖組長他有的一個主管的一個組你再去了解一下生肖組長你一直用代理的也不是辦法嘛 對不對你要去了解問題嘛那我剛講就是因為他面對很多幫派的學生啊他本來就比較危險嘛 對不對然後再來喔之前我曾經有提過啦國中能不能比照高中"},{"start":11204.878,"end":11222.218,"text":"成立校安人員可不可以就是由訓練有數的校安人員來處理剛剛所講的校園安全問題可不可以之前有提案啦但是教育部也是隨便回我啦那因為現在換了一個部長我們希望部長重新思考好不好因為現在校園安全確實是出了狀況"},{"start":11223.419,"end":11238.341,"text":"那你叫老師去面對這些幫派學生其實是給老師很大的壓力所以應該要專責的訓練有數的人員去面對啦我希望說下一次就等部長熟悉之後再來問部長部長可以給我一個比較肯定的答案因為這個是為了學生好"},{"start":11238.601,"end":11262.949,"text":"我想怎樣去讓一個友善跟安全的校園環境提供老師不僅學生的安全學習老師的一個放安心教學我想那是我們努力的目的我提出來方案是校安人員嘛那部長如果你有更好方案我們來討論嘛但如果沒有的話你考慮一下就是編一點預算去找校安人員來做嘛好不好這個下次我再來問部長還有啊"},{"start":11264.489,"end":11291.959,"text":"現在老師講說在學校記校規跟校話一樣校規變校話像我們以前小時候大家怕被記校規為什麼因為記大過三個大過退學我們現在在學校記了十個大過沒事然後反而還增加老師的負擔老師為了記大過還要寫報告記學生大過還要寫報告那請問一下部長這個校規記了十個大過都沒有對學生沒有任何影響你不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":11293.12,"end":11321.389,"text":"要怎麼處理啊我想有關學生的違規當他某種程度他已經人地不宜啦我們看怎麼樣去協助他我這邊一個建議好不好我這邊一個建議啦我覺得我們還是要設立很多中介組織就是說你今天一個學生他一直犯校規也許他有校園暴力行為記得十個大過要嘛他就待在原來的學校要嘛轉到另外一個學校成為另外一個學校的問題"},{"start":11323.009,"end":11337.581,"text":"那你有解決任何問題嗎?沒有啊今天是不是應該要有一個中介組織讓他先到中介組織接受訓練或是上學然後再做處置嘛你不能說把校規當作是完全沒有任何阻力啊"},{"start":11339.114,"end":11365.683,"text":"我同意委員說的對這些已經進入需要關懷的我覺得我們教育當然學生人權很重要這些少數學生人權很重要可是我們更應該思考是怎麼樣保護更多善良的學生讓他們可以在一個無憂無慮的教育環境下學習這是應該也是教育部應該要注重的點這也就是今天為什麼我們要討論霸凌跟毒品好不好部長下次我再來跟你討論謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":11368.8,"end":11376.665,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝葉元智委員接下來我們請吳村成委員 謝謝我們請鄭部長 有請鄭部長好 鄭部長 謝謝"},{"start":11392.932,"end":11411.698,"text":"部長,上任應該三個星期了,應該駕輕就熟,進入狀況中了,應該可以看得出來,特別是像今天在談新世代"},{"start":11412.813,"end":11413.754,"text":"有什麼根本解方嗎?"},{"start":11431.829,"end":11454.698,"text":"我想教育這一個人才培育是國家的希望那當然不能只靠學校教育我們需要家庭教育也需要社會大眾多一份對學校教育的一個支持謝謝所以呢對這個部長這個觀念就跟我不謀而合就像現在"},{"start":11455.638,"end":11456.339,"text":"委員長鄭英耀"},{"start":11475.814,"end":11493.243,"text":"整個家庭教育這個就代溝越加的嚴重所以這是一個整體的啦這整體所以呢我在提的這個壯世代裡面特別提到是高齡化與少子化的雙解方其實這事情是議題之兩面"},{"start":11495.484,"end":11511.733,"text":"我們不可能去放棄到另外三分之一的越來越多的高齡化的這一群人讓他跟社會脫節然後去致力解決另外三分之一的人是不可能的所以呢你為什麼會成出不窮的困境"},{"start":11512.994,"end":11540.266,"text":"永無止境的惡性循環越來越嚴重部長也知道上次在5月31日行政院長總質詢的時候我有提出壯世代的質詢部長也有上台備詢那一次院長有答應成立行政院的壯世代專案小組"},{"start":11541.827,"end":11559.329,"text":"所以當然在這裡面教育部也納在這個小組裡面所以這個應該是願你肯定要推動的政策所以這個那我也看到這個部長在接受媒體採訪的時候有一段話"},{"start":11560.97,"end":11583.202,"text":"你說大家都在招18歲的學生那希望能夠推動讓30歲以上的人口能更自由的進出高等教育進行終身教育我想這是你的理念嘛就是我們過去就像大學就是18歲在念的那沒有看到這麼多的空間其他的好像置之不管"},{"start":11584.022,"end":11591.807,"text":"所以部長有這樣的理念所以我也希望寄望於你啦啟動第三人生大學是你的使命"},{"start":11593.444,"end":11621.225,"text":"那也很感謝這個其實這四個月來我一直纏著教育部這一個對第三人生大學的推動那也有給我一個正式的回函那對於這份回函我是給予肯定可以看得出教育部是有用心的不是敷衍一下的是有在進行但是我現在還是要繼續的把這件事情落實"},{"start":11624.187,"end":11650.059,"text":"希望鄭部長延續之前的承諾繼續來推動第三人生大學因為我相信你剛上來這個太多的事物要理解的不過我也請這個部長對這個議題重中之重這個議題會解決到教育部太多的問題所以希望而且是有800萬的壯士代因應期待對部長你的期待"},{"start":11652.557,"end":11672.912,"text":"在這份回覆當中教育部提出第三人生大學有三個階段第一個就是短期委託專業團隊進行第三人生大學核心課程模組的研發那中期開始規劃第三人生大學的試辦計畫"},{"start":11674.733,"end":11694.561,"text":"那長期呢可以第三人稱大學與學位的銜接那有提出一個短中期的計畫那但是在這裡我沒有看到時程跟這個如何落實可以看出來理念上是有納入這個部裡的規劃所以呢"},{"start":11700.593,"end":11724.011,"text":"我要給部長、部理面提供一些建議短期規劃當中主要在核心課程的模組研發在這裡我要特別提醒教育部千萬要了解壯世代的概念不要侷限在勒領銀髮的思維因為"},{"start":11727.515,"end":11746.886,"text":"所以要請相關的同仁這個狀態的相關的文章已經非常多了成千上萬的在網路上都有務必要去研讀要去了解如果不夠的話請跟我接洽好不好我非常樂意去上課"},{"start":11749.579,"end":11775.61,"text":"現在很多醫學都在證明老人不是沒有用的像這個華盛頓的醫學裡面他研究說首領的大腦左右半球的互動變得更和諧他的創意跟智能持續在躍進創作力可能比年輕人更強通常會覺得年紀大沒有創意但是這裡說創作力可能更強"},{"start":11777.15,"end":11791.78,"text":"第二點是首領大腦雖然不如年輕的時候快但是靈活性會提升而且能夠做出正確的決定而且比較少受到負面情緒的影響人類的智力活動高峰出現在60到80歲之間那我覺得"},{"start":11795.822,"end":11808.387,"text":"我們通常我就要翻轉這個觀念就覺得很多人包括自己就覺得60歲老了不好啦所以這個教育部要教育他們你很棒要給他加油"},{"start":11811.531,"end":11828.084,"text":"首先就是這個要翻轉這個啦我看到現在真的很多的都是因法族思維要把它翻轉到壯世代的思維那完全不一樣這兩個是完全不同的設定那這教育部非常重要的教育工作"},{"start":11829.364,"end":11852.552,"text":"其實他們人生追求不一樣,過去的人就搶人生那到了第三人生,第三人生在追求什麼首先要建立他的哲學基礎我們人類的知識只有到第二人生而已第三人生是一片空白那教育在這方面的研究在追求自我實現那有關這個我想教育部的專家非常多要來致力追求這個"},{"start":11855.443,"end":11870.221,"text":"首先在做這個之前不要憑空想像要針對壯世代的需求來做調查其實我們在民間已經也在進行這個工作很多了我有提出一個80項需求大調查"},{"start":11871.422,"end":11895.027,"text":"這目前在進行中當然我們民間的力量很有限像教育部如果有的話可以啦你們也要更專注的研究以後瞭解他們不然你憑空想像都是因法族的需求所以這一個的調查我在進行那這個像工商司法提出來他是可以捲起千堆血他不是我們的負擔跟依賴"},{"start":11897.285,"end":11921.716,"text":"第二個中間的中段當中就是事辦事辦當中目前的回覆裡面有提出社區大學、樂嶺大學、空中大學還有面臨轉型挑戰的大專院校優先徵詢我覺得這個一定要跳脫這種樂嶺大學、社區大學這種概念不是把他們的課程改良一下就好了因為它是全然不同的"},{"start":11922.376,"end":11943.669,"text":"所以我倒是會覺得這些面臨轉型的這些大學不要輔導待退而能夠積極的轉型他來做這個第三人生大學給他一條生路那像現在也可以看得出來因為少子化目前已經用12所那預計8年之內會再導致10所大學那不要只是輔導待退"},{"start":11944.91,"end":11967.908,"text":"而不是把他輔導這個積極的轉型因為其實這也不是他的錯不是他的學校有問題、設備有問題而是因為少子化招不到學生嘛那開放第三人稱大學有300萬人要報名啊你為什麼這可以救他們啊為什麼不積極的所以這不能拖延積極的同時解決給壯世代的希望同時解決這些高校的問題"},{"start":11970.049,"end":11989.479,"text":"長程的規劃就是跟這個學位的銜接但是這個不要變成長期我希望能夠更加快而且這個也不是那些被淘汰的如果那個未來的頂端的高級大學的這些優秀的大學也都應該要去朝向這一方面的開放"},{"start":11993.174,"end":12012.492,"text":"所以最後我要請部長是否因為這個的想法應該都有我非常肯定但是現在對執行的做法還有時間表這樣子的一個架構是不是能夠在一個月之內對短中長期這樣子的提供給本席"},{"start":12013.573,"end":12037.257,"text":"我想謝謝委員的質詢我們會來在一個月內提出來因為委員所勾勒的那個圖像事實上跟我們的想像是一樣的我們也在做滾動式的修正我相信他未來不應該只是樂齡大學社區大學空大他應該在一般大學裡面就應該看到一個人生的一個轉換或者許多的一個更豐富的"},{"start":12037.637,"end":12040.659,"text":"本委員會今天最有激發人心的就是告訴我們60歲到80歲是具有智慧是最高的好不好這完全挑戰我的認知心理學通常25歲之後記憶力就下降了請接受這個事實好嗎好"},{"start":12067.897,"end":12074.943,"text":"我們在張雅琳委員質詢完畢之後呢我們進行三個臨時提案的處理那我們接下來請張雅琳委員謝謝有請部長跟警政署好部長跟警政署謝謝"},{"start":12095.095,"end":12116.914,"text":"早安,就是說今天我想要來針對於這個青少年的部分來跟部長跟大家來做一個討論就是說我們現在雖然說從很多的數字不管從警政署或是校安通報的數字我們好像那個青少年使用的毒品的人口都在下降但是我其實也有看到一個107年食藥署的全國物質使用調查"},{"start":12117.995,"end":12143.38,"text":"他說呢第一個我們現在使用的形態非常多元所以這個是一個問題第二個問題是大多數使用的地方都在同學或朋友家裡也就是說他不是消音通報會統計到的校園他也不是青春專案會掃蕩到的KTV、網咖、夜店都不是那這個地方家內使用的數字我們現在是有掌握的嗎"},{"start":12144.5,"end":12156.125,"text":"我想要了解在這個部分因為我們這樣子要怎麼去說我們使用的人口是下降的因為搞不好他是不是在家裡我們根本都沒有看到都沒有捕獲到對 所以我想要知道我們怎麼去掌握這些家內使用的狀態"},{"start":12157.957,"end":12179.631,"text":"目前我們教育部掌握到有關涉毒的學生人數除了一部分是由警方查獲的以外有另外一部分是經由學校特定學生提報做尿塞經過檢驗之後發現是陽性的而列入村會輔導的個案那有少部分的學生是因為自己感到困擾主動向師長求助我們列入輔導的個案"},{"start":12181.313,"end":12202.255,"text":"現在看起來好像都是學生有覺察或是我們發現學生有異狀然後我們邀請他來做嘛那我想要知道就是說我們如何去判斷學生有異狀這件事情因為我看到我們的報告裡面都一直有想說我們有掌握這些高風險的我們是有些篩選機制讓學老師們有意識嗎或是讓同學有意識我們做這塊的宣導是嗎"},{"start":12203.769,"end":12232.299,"text":"先說明如果學生有涉毒的情況可能會出現精神狀態不佳比如說倦怠或者情緒高漲這樣的異常的狀況或者是出現異常的比如說出手突然變得很闊綽之類的這些異常的狀況都很有可能是學校會把它提報為特定學生那另外就是有一部分的學生可能是中離中錯或者休學之後返校復學這些個案我們也都會提報為特定學生進行尿塞"},{"start":12233.158,"end":12250.797,"text":"那這個尿塞的頻率是多?頻率是?尿塞的部分分成兩種一種就是他如果是中離中錯休學就在他回學校的時候就做處理那如果不是這種情況是屬於一般的狀況就是當學生發現異常的時候就可以來做處理"},{"start":12252.423,"end":12268.113,"text":"接下來我們就直接跳到第二個問題就是新型態的毒品其實是越來越多元那這個像這個喵喵3年內奪去了205命那我想要知道說我們現在做的這些尿酸尿檢是新型態的毒品都能夠掌握得到嗎?"},{"start":12269.141,"end":12286.747,"text":"我們目前查獲的個案當中還包括尿塞查獲個案統計前五大當中像新型毒品是混合型的或者彩虹菸這個其實都在前五排名之內所以其實對這樣新型態的部分我們在查獲的個案是有發現的而且比例不低"},{"start":12289.329,"end":12315.09,"text":"這部分我肯定教育部的努力再來我有一個問題我們說人數都在下降可是我發現一個數字很奇怪國小現在才到四月以前一整年大概二到四案可是現在一到四月才四個月已經三案那是我如果這樣去推算我們今年的人數可能就會超過過去的新高那到底發生了什麼事情在國小端我們的掌握是什麼"},{"start":12316.448,"end":12319.711,"text":"我們現在在國小的作為是什麼?因為這個數字這樣看起來是非常不樂觀"},{"start":12339.872,"end":12363.007,"text":"我們就是跟委員報告我們現在國小階段最主要的採訪是入班宣導每一個班都要有村會職工或者輔導老師進去做宣導會教小朋友辨識奶茶包、咖啡包甚至油票甚至軟糖都有可能是所以不要吃任何陌生人提供給他或者是不是我們所熟悉的食品東西否則就有可能誤食"},{"start":12364.002,"end":12366.003,"text":"我們現在在國小跟國中的部分其實入班宣導的部分比例都有達到百分之百"},{"start":12385.596,"end":12396.065,"text":"我們為了確定成效其實我們有做學生的抽樣的問卷調查了解學生是不是有接獲毒品造成的危害等等的資訊每年都有定期調查其實那個百分比都有在提高以目前最近一次的調查來講大概有達到95%還有5%的學生是沒有收到這樣的訊息"},{"start":12407.894,"end":12427.843,"text":"接下來每一季如果有做這個小學的濫用統計的話都提到我辦公室我想要知道這個趨勢有沒有因為我們有所作為而有下降那再來就是說因為其實大多數使用的都在同學家大八成的小朋友拿到毒品都是透過朋友我們應該如何介入這些用毒青少年的同儕網路"},{"start":12429.544,"end":12449.394,"text":"我先講這個就是說我們現在雖然有做陸班選導但我只是在思考一件事情那我就提供給教育部來做參考我們是不是可以建立一個匿名通報的機制因為其實我知道小朋友彼此都會說欸我知道哪一班有這件事情那我們是不是有個這樣子的機制可以來做使用第二個再來就是說因為是朋友可是我們現在所"},{"start":12450.094,"end":12476.196,"text":"提供的這些宣導單章裡面我們都是跟他講勇於拒絕不要輕易嘗試可是朋友之間就會說啊你試一下啦沒關係啦這樣子的話術我們先提供這個話術根本沒有幫助他可以拒絕是不是可以找兒少代表一起來討論我們現在這些宣傳單章要怎麼樣才可以真正的貼近他們的環境讓他們可以真的遠離毒害這件事情可不可以做得到我們在兒少代表的部分來討論"},{"start":12479.545,"end":12483.007,"text":"我們會來努力邀請二十二個來參與討論跟委員報告其實我們過去有考慮到如何讓學生關注這個議題他們自己來討論如何來拒絕毒品所以我們其實也有辦理微電影的競賽就是希望學生他們參與他們會找他們有興趣的題材跟情境"},{"start":12498.158,"end":12500.14,"text":"我們過去在處理的時候比較沒有特別邀請耳哨代表來討論"},{"start":12516.032,"end":12545.732,"text":"好,這個部分就麻煩我希望我們可以找得上一起來討論好不好那再來就是說因為其實還有講就是說當他今天使用的時候除了學校要注意之外另外一個就是家庭那我也知道學校教育部其實這邊也有做一些相關的這些家庭的一些家庭教育中心啦或是一些社區的活動那這些場次跟經費是不是都可以會後提供給我讓我了解一下還是你們現在已經有確切的一些場次跟數據可以現在有嗎"},{"start":12547.479,"end":12547.76,"text":"舉舉辦多少場次?"},{"start":12549.318,"end":12576.414,"text":"跟委員報告現在手上沒有這個資訊好沒關係那會後提供給我齁因為其實這個跟如何第一個協助他不要進入這個毒害的領域第二個就是當他離開之後我們要怎麼樣子讓家庭可以協助他因為這是避免他再犯的齁所以再來這個施用毒品再犯防治統治的計畫我目前只有看到109年內有沒有更新的數據啊這個數據到底是誰可以提供給我"},{"start":12578.881,"end":12592.751,"text":"這個我們手上有你們手上有嗎 是教育部那為什麼一直都沒有更新啊已經是2010 109年到現在已經也4年了欸對 跟文法 抱歉我們來清查看我們手上都有這個數據"},{"start":12594.5,"end":12597.101,"text":"我們目前非在學的部分會由縣市政府的少府會會同社會局跟教育局共同來協助輔導"},{"start":12612.466,"end":12625.456,"text":"對,但是因為我現在看起來的那個因為6個月在通報跟6到12個月在通報的數字其實在非在學的部分都是在增加的啦所以這個是由教育部來提供給我相關的數據嘛那最後一題把握時間"},{"start":12631.007,"end":12645.427,"text":"我們現在在校安通報的霸凌數據上面我們是12.3%可是因為根據聯合國全世界校園霸凌的調查報告其實全世界是30.3%那不管是不是除了聯合國之外"},{"start":12646.829,"end":12670.897,"text":"我們在201919年台灣傳播調查資料庫的調查也有指出國小生、國中生、高中生被霸凌的比率分別是41.46%、31.97%、15.16%包含或是最近兒福每一年都會做這個數字數字都遠高於我們教育部提供的數字我想知道這個落差是什麼是我們沒有"},{"start":12672.497,"end":12698.514,"text":"我不曉得部長瞭不瞭解就是說因為我知道以前在開這個兒少事故委員會的時候兒少代表就說我們在做這些校園暴霸凌的這些問卷調查由後往前收或是都收到老師那邊沒有人敢真實的填寫所以這是一個很大的問題那他們也一直不停的提出來是不是可以透過網路的方式來做調查他們才能夠真實的說出來那這個部分我們到底是不是可以去做什麼樣子的改善讓真實的數據可以被呈現呢"},{"start":12700.387,"end":12728.685,"text":"跟委員說明我想我們的比例只有12.3跟其他國家不一樣很可能是計算的基礎不一樣因為我們現在目前的這個基礎是用通報的當作分母以查證確認成立的案件當分子那其他的這個部分可能並不是他可能是透過類似像問卷調查然後從抽樣當中去發現然後另外就是認定的期程是有關係的像我們的校園生物卷是以上個學期發生的事情以半年內是不是有發生的感受"},{"start":12728.985,"end":12732.247,"text":"其實我們是有校園霸凌現況調查在你的112年的預算書有這些計畫但是我完全找不到這個計畫的內容"},{"start":12752.281,"end":12752.581,"text":"接下來我們處理臨時提案"},{"start":12779.929,"end":12804.37,"text":"我們現在臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案三案我們現在請宣讀第一案有鑒於今年適逢偏鄉小校認定三年一次檢討年因此針對現行中央對偏鄉學校認定採總量管制限額導致出現像新北市原本有20所學校是偏遠小學但受限於中央給新北市額度只有45所只好改列非山非市"},{"start":12805.251,"end":12829.447,"text":"兩者相關補助經費出現嚴重落差造成偏鄉小校面臨少子化與資源不足多重困境難以翻身嚴此提案要求教育部對偏遠地區學校分級及認定標準以各校交通、文化、生活機能、數位環境及社會經濟條件等項目計算模糊標準予以檢討並對各地方政府今年爭取小校符合偏遠學校標準者"},{"start":12829.867,"end":12854.277,"text":"因依照偏遠小校實際需求採取政惡錄取．案人紅夢凱、柯智恩、葛如君第二案因臺東女中操場長久以來軍委紅土跑道每逢東北季風都造成大量沙塵不僅影響學生上課品質亦威脅學生健康為改善臺東女中整體教學品質降低風吹成揚原提案要求教育部一個月內邀集相關單位進行會勘並協助"},{"start":12856.818,"end":12881.623,"text":"臺東女中女聚相關計畫送教育部申請補助提案人葛如君、洪孟凱、柯智恩、黃建斌第三案近日因臺東高中游泳池割傷學生腳底板的問題引發廣泛討論還成為全國頭條下方則回應游泳池因使用地下水水質偏硬導致池底石灰質沉澱過去也有學生因此割傷腳底所以建議學生游泳課要穿襪子"},{"start":12882.605,"end":12910.696,"text":"台東高中體育組曾邀請維修廠商廠刊建議更換過濾器並偵測淨水塔、軟水器等設備但所需經費高達800萬元卻未能獲得體育署補助整件計劃應有擱置為避免台東高中學生著話上游泳課並維護學生受教權益委員要求教育部於一周內邀集相關單位進行會刊並協助台東高中擬具相關計劃送教育部申請補助提案人葛如軍、洪孟凱、柯智恩、黃倩冰簽讀完畢"},{"start":12912.377,"end":12919.122,"text":"我們先從第一案開始處理第一案提案委員不在教育部的看法跟主席報告我們大概跟紅委員有報告說是不是能夠在第一案後面加一個評估因評估倒數第二句最後一段"},{"start":12936.467,"end":12939.489,"text":"第二案我們的提案委員黃建斌有沒有意見?"},{"start":12962.798,"end":12981.873,"text":"謝謝主席就是像我們提案按鈕所寫的這樣子希望能夠改善這個臺東女中這個草場的保障的問題你的提案還真的是還蠻簡單的你只要去看一看就好是吧好 OK 教育部我們配合辦理好 我們配合辦理我們專案通過好 第三案"},{"start":12984.073,"end":13000.549,"text":"對啦,其實第三案跟第二案都是一樣就是要編預算的,台中高中這個應該也是上頭版的新聞了感謝委員關心跟主委報告,事實上我們下午已經有有代表這個我們部裡邊的同仁去看了,所以我們要配合辦了"},{"start":13001.169,"end":13001.189,"text":"4分鐘時間 謝謝"},{"start":13043.79,"end":13044.151,"text":"謝謝主席 請鄭部長"},{"start":13052.321,"end":13075.508,"text":"委員好部長你好我想教育部統計國中中輟生111年2135人本席認為說強化整個社會安全網將有助於中輟生重返校園那基層教師也建議說增加輔導人力也有專家建議如果"},{"start":13077.127,"end":13097.736,"text":"該區域學生中錯的比例高就應該要增加社工師的比例目前整個國中輔導教師一二年有1384人請問教育部政部長您對於校園輔導人力不足的問題未來你認為要如何處理"},{"start":13099.653,"end":13117.485,"text":"我想謝謝委員的指正確實我們現在青少年青世代他們面對社會的許多的這個應該說挑戰也蠻大的那怎麼樣減緩讓我們的學生能夠安心在學校能夠學習"},{"start":13119.554,"end":13142.025,"text":"提升輔導老師的一些相關的專業的能力這是一個那另外一個學校當然不能只靠輔導老師所以剛才委員所提的怎麼樣去適度的增加輔導人力或者必要的時候在一個大型的學校當他的問題需要有更多的一些專業人力的介入我們會擬出一個"},{"start":13144.266,"end":13163.442,"text":"你們要解決問題啦那你認為114年國中專任的輔導教師人數會不會再增加我們目前國中已經完全增補已經有增加會再增加53個人國小會再增加2088人當下的問題真的是要想辦法去解決啦那個2022年校園霸凌"},{"start":13173.202,"end":13182.97,"text":"確認的件數有205件那因為校園霸凌的問題陳出不窮我們經常在網路上看到那個學生甚至於"},{"start":13184.978,"end":13213.525,"text":"讓社會大眾大家非常的憤怒那其他學生也不敢挺身而出來檢舉形成校園霸凌的黑術那教育部定定的校園霸凌防制準則第8條提到鼓勵學生及家長檢舉來協助及作為旁觀者適當的介入以及及早制止與化解那我請問部長檢舉霸凌的鼓勵措施有哪些"},{"start":13216.448,"end":13233.655,"text":"要勇於選舉阿對不對你們總是要拿出來嘛你是要獎金還是加獎還是要升學考試加分等等有一些鼓勵選舉霸凌不要淪為只有空談阿"},{"start":13234.963,"end":13237.505,"text":"那個處置齁那個講你要實務上有作為啦空談是沒有用的啦"},{"start":13264.725,"end":13285.311,"text":"我認為做任何事情我們是針對問題探討問題要怎麼去解決問題啊並不是說淪為空談那個一點用處都沒有啦那還有這個大麻的問題因為校園大麻防制現況的以作為啊教育部曾指出一二年一到四月學生"},{"start":13286.611,"end":13304.585,"text":"藥物濫用統計中大麻高居第二名14.29%僅次於K他命而且有逐年增加的趨勢學生施用大麻的人數卻和警方實際查獲的大麻數量呈環比"},{"start":13305.805,"end":13332.224,"text":"大學生涉毒的案件黑數恐怕不少首先本席是反對吸食大麻足罪化也反對大麻改列為第三級的毒品因為包括中正大學犯罪研究中心調查指出有近九成的民眾是不贊成大麻合法化那部長你在你任內你會不會支持大麻合法化會不會"},{"start":13332.904,"end":13334.045,"text":"接下來我們請黃建斌委員 謝謝"},{"start":13364.292,"end":13365.073,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長"},{"start":13368.018,"end":13396.921,"text":"部長之前是在高雄有擔任過校長對不對?是因為我們南部的鄉親就說校長對於學生都非常的照顧在這裡也拜託保證對我們台中的學生也可以照顧首先我想要跟部長分享我上個禮拜回去台東過端午節遇到的兩件事情我在包肉粽的時候有一個小朋友小女生跟我說叔叔叔叔你知道我們有聽到一個好笑的事情是那個台東高中的學生啊他們用課都要穿襪子欸"},{"start":13397.742,"end":13424.424,"text":"穿襪子上游泳課,我以為他在開玩笑,後來部長你也看了那些新聞,這保溫是不是就接下來要請部裡面這邊來,趕快來協助來處理根文報告,確實當時臺東高中在這一個每年的年度的修繕游泳池裡邊他們也提出申請但是他們申請的是要過濾,過濾的還有一些遮陽,所以並不是"},{"start":13425.465,"end":13450.183,"text":"並不是有立即危險性的所以我們在體育署跟委員報告做了一些在請委員這個專家委員去現場這個勘查然後做了一個決定那也感謝委員的一個提醒我們是跟委員報告我們體育署今天下午就會有同仁到台東高中裡面實際去勘查那個整個未來希望能夠提供改善謝謝部長"},{"start":13451.844,"end":13480.344,"text":"第一個第二個就是我說沒有還好沒有比較好笑是說有其實我們學校的學生都帶護目鏡跟呼吸在跑步為什麼因為東台東女中的操場是紅土那東北西洋一來啊整個民眾會瘋瘋瘋的啊就算了就算了很多紅土然後會飛起來然後還有那個草地都很跑不了然後還有那個很多坑洞就是會跌倒很難跑對"},{"start":13483.573,"end":13500.911,"text":"謝謝部長,部長這個影片要提其實台東高中跟台東女中是在台東非常指標的一個綜合中學那就是高雄的最重要的地方那這麼指標的學校的教學環境設備是這樣子需要來極力改善所以在這裡也要拜託保定幫我們做什麼"},{"start":13502.185,"end":13524.385,"text":"其實這個校園看起來操場它其實蠻永續的就是符合我們現在的一個永續校園但是怎麼樣讓它塵土不再揮揚而能夠讓這一些學生能夠很安心的做這一個許多的這個運動活動我想這我們來跟學校來討論來做一些處理"},{"start":13528.15,"end":13547.436,"text":"最後我再跟部長分享我在舊址以來有一件事情一直困擾著台東的很多鄉親就是我們東海國中的綜合多功能體育館這件事情在我們上任的時候有送陳情書到部裡面可能部長這件事可能要再瞭解一下因為這間國中"},{"start":13549.216,"end":13574.838,"text":"創校57年他還沒有自己的體育館他還沒有自己的體育館他經歷了兩次的遷校然後這邊學生每年都是走到隔壁的高中參加畢業典禮然後再走回自己的校園那這邊校方也是希望說地都有了剩下經費部分是不是請部長這邊來協助那這個部分據本席了解這個公文已經送來一段時間了不知道現在這個案子進行的情況"},{"start":13576.581,"end":13598.467,"text":"公務委員報告事實上當時台東東海國中他的活動中心申請也經過審查他提出了一億兩千萬那去年十月的一個審查也合併這個用這個花東基金這個合併這個六千三百萬那地方政府"},{"start":13600.267,"end":13626.542,"text":"這一個編列這個配合館700萬大概有總共的一個7000萬的一個經費讓東海國中裡面去施作這部分是會後請部長跟哲成我們國教署跟體育署來這邊跟本席的聯繫後面的整個發展情況因為這個學校的學生包括周邊的居民都很希望有一個這樣子多功能的運動場所不只提供給學生甚至"},{"start":13627.262,"end":13632.347,"text":"祝周邊居民、利民、阻撓紅胎群埋葬收容中心在此拜託部長"},{"start":13642.546,"end":13663.193,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝所以部長看在我們臺東來的委員他是目前對你最客氣的地方好不好請你務必給臺東偏遠的縣市最好的協助一定要的一定要的好謝謝接下來我們請謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員謝依鳳委員好林倩琦委員謝謝"},{"start":13665.745,"end":13687.704,"text":"好,我們現在已經超過12點多我們反請未來來這邊質詢的委員能夠堅守時間這個本委會8加2然後列席委員4分鐘謝謝各位,謝謝好,謝謝張偉那我們就請那個教育部部長然後還有法務部和警政署的代表好,我們就請教育部長、法務部代表還有我們警政署,謝謝謝謝"},{"start":13692.577,"end":13712.762,"text":"今天我們針對這個有效防制毒品不要進入校園、減少霸凌的這個案件做這樣一個專題那我們有機會跨部會的一個討論然後也再次提醒一下那今天這個專題裡面除了這個毒品霸凌以外那我認為本席認為還有一個很重要的主體叫詐騙"},{"start":13715.021,"end":13724.089,"text":"詐騙、霸凌及毒品,我想是在這整件事情裏面很重要的一種相關系。所以依據這個這麼錯綜複雜的因果關係,那麼這三則統計數,"},{"start":13730.376,"end":13742.932,"text":"統計的這個數據還有研究我覺得應該更進一步的做一個綜合的交叉分析我想這個希望各部會在你職責所行的那個範圍內應該在這個部分再進一步的做一個討論"},{"start":13747.418,"end":13775.717,"text":"另外有個數據我也希望教育部這邊能夠留意一下雖然我們在校園霸凌防制的準則的一個背景下也召開了很多的會議還有公聽會但是今年有一個數據部裡面可以做一下瞭解也就是我們校園霸凌的數據不但的升高目前有2000多件但確認率卻降低了從三成到一成"},{"start":13776.357,"end":13793.789,"text":"但我不知道這中間是不是有些東西變成黑數所以這個部分我先提醒請大家注意一下因為我們都有一些KPI各部會有KPI的一些壓力那我不知道在這個KPI的這個導向跟壓力之下在數字的呈現上我覺得應該更"},{"start":13795.332,"end":13817.72,"text":"進一步去了解它背後的一些意義所以本席在今天的這個主題上有四點的看法與建議第一個部分是我們必須要嚴肅的看待每一個霸凌的案件因為每個案件都有它的意義這當然會讓大家比較累但是我們相信它這樣子的付出如果多關照一些社會成本相對會比較降低"},{"start":13818.56,"end":13842.379,"text":"第二部分,很多東西我們就教材完之後就感覺結束了了事但是很重要一點在這個主題上我們應該在持續追蹤的觀察長期的這樣子的追蹤其實有它的必要另外有一個部分是這個圍棋式本席在這邊建議我們應該將這個圍棋式定義入法然後能夠防圍杜建希望能夠做到一個源頭的防範"},{"start":13843.68,"end":13866.5,"text":"這個部分請相關部會去做一個考量另外我們在處理上要細密很重要一點就是保密很多事情都因為沒有保密結果除了當事人以外其他的人都是加油添醋結果到最後就變成一種渲染最後導致一種公審的狀態對當事人或相關人等其實是很不公平的"},{"start":13867.36,"end":13893.767,"text":"這是我今天很重要的一個四點的一個建議那請相關部會研議那接下來我們就用一個案件來做一個分享那今天在這個2月23號及6月5號有一個媒體的報導那我們看這個媒體報導的這個內容然後跟他的標題他的標題是以為應該是有一個家長以為國小的兒子他的兒子遭到霸凌那這個爸爸呢就"},{"start":13895.227,"end":13921.977,"text":"怒拿了武士刀衝了學校這個是媒體的標題那我相信大家現在很多時候沒有時間那我們就是標題閃了一下然後大概這個標題就進入腦子裡但是很重要我們可能要看一下這個內容那我今天就把內容拆解一下請各部會就內容上你們看到的一個結果那你對這件事情的認知那因為這是他國小的這個爸爸的國小五年級的一個他的兒子然後在"},{"start":13924.098,"end":13951.772,"text":"二月的某日下午感覺好像他認為遭到其他的同學的言語的譏諷所以他的胞妹在接受的時候他聽到這件事然後他有他的認知認為小孩可能在校園裡面接受霸凌被受到霸凌那就告訴他爸爸結果爸爸就向學校要求調查此事然後學校調查我想如果我們有經驗就知道這個看起來是沒有事情那應該也沒有這樣的情勢於是又"},{"start":13952.632,"end":13959.319,"text":"依照我們的SOP又是要開來協調會議然後邀請了這個爸爸跟其他市民家長的參與然後內容二"},{"start":13961.991,"end":13988.604,"text":"接下來在22日爸爸就去參加了這個會議結果他在這個會議當中情緒激動之下就拿出他的武士刀然後就對大家揮舞當然我們看到一些器具我們當然都會害怕所以校方就緊急封鎖整個學校52個班級進行廣播然後請大家不要離開教室當然大部分的人不知道什麼事情就在教室裡面度過了驚恐的1.5小時"},{"start":13991.426,"end":14008.522,"text":"第三當然就一定會有人去報案了分局接到報案之後就趕快到了學校然後就把這個爸爸以現行犯的方式逮捕爸爸看到了也就將這個武士刀趕快丟在這個校園的排水溝但是很多東西就後來這些器具被找到了"},{"start":14009.642,"end":14024.812,"text":"警方也發現武士刀和高爾夫球桿我後面掛號自己會想說這高爾夫球桿跟爸爸有沒有關係但是在一定的篇幅下能夠看到的報道大概就是這樣見識以後就發現武士刀還沒有開封只能算是鈍器不屬於危險物品"},{"start":14029.435,"end":14046.368,"text":"所以我真的好奇是這個請問那個高爾夫球桿是在這邊加重武士道的強度嗎這個是所謂媒體有太多背景可以解讀了好那接下來最後一個第一在審理這個A男的時候呢偵查當中他都對他的行為有"},{"start":14049.15,"end":14050.09,"text":"我們先請警政署"},{"start":14078.65,"end":14099.855,"text":"接下來法務部教育的部分我們需要長一點的時間是不是聽聽大家的一個想法委員好警政署代表發言我們看到這個個案大概就是一開始是霸凌行為的一些紛爭那跟警政署相關的就是這個A男拿出這個武士刀開始揮舞之後這個學校報案"},{"start":14101.675,"end":14119.181,"text":"進到現場我們依照現行判逮捕之後接下來就是這個院檢論罪的部分這個部分我們就尊重司法的判決那我們未來會要求類似像這種校園安全事件要立刻能夠儘速到場立刻能夠維持所有人的安全為最重要的任務以上"},{"start":14120.182,"end":14124.245,"text":"法務部有什麼看法?首先這個案子應該涉及的是刑法305條的單純恐嚇罪因為他那個武士刀沒開封沒開封的話他沒有辦法用槍炮彈"},{"start":14137.355,"end":14137.755,"text":"如果說這個檢察官認為"},{"start":14161.676,"end":14164.018,"text":"其實我看到這樣一個事件的發展事實上是覺得很尷尬"},{"start":14189.4,"end":14207.134,"text":"因為我們大概可以理解這個父親關心小孩然後看起來父親有一點衝動型的一個性格那也帶了不應該帶的這個器具到學校那在溝通的過程裡面產生了一些不必要的一些紛爭"},{"start":14208.735,"end":14209.255,"text":"我沒有努力的"},{"start":14238.547,"end":14253.441,"text":"好,謝謝部長這邊各單位都就你們的這個職責背景提出了一些看法那本席就針對這個案件剛才那個部長這邊提到的那也很感受啦就是我們都心有同感"},{"start":14257.545,"end":14275.313,"text":"這就反映到剛才本席一開始所講的我們對每一個案件的這個看待它都有後面很多的背景而且是有連帶的那這個部分我們如果光一個案件然後再加上每一年這麼多的案件那這個連帶起來我們看不到的社會成本是非常高的所以其實值得我們來正視"},{"start":14276.794,"end":14305.688,"text":"本席在這個部分我們講客觀一點來看待我們是不是應該第一個檢視怎麼去判斷這個孩子是不是遭到霸凌那有沒有可能在這個過程當中他乾脆後來或許有些東西就往心裡放然後就跟著他一起成長那另外呢家長依據孩子的說法行動的事實如何處理然後再來呢是如何對家長進行安撫、溝通並且取得信任還有協調會的這個事前的準備是不是充分"},{"start":14306.368,"end":14306.388,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":14339.243,"end":14343.264,"text":"謝謝大家請回座謝謝 我們接下來請陳俊宇委員好 謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長好 鄭部長 謝謝"},{"start":14364.642,"end":14387.261,"text":"部長午安委員午安今天我們的專題報告是有關校園的這個毒品入侵校園還有減少暴力案件的相關的專題報告那有關校園這個霸凌的部分我想在此跟部長您還有我們相關部會的這個首長做一個研究探討"},{"start":14389.482,"end":14418.422,"text":"對於這個議題我相信在我們從以前到現在都一直不斷的都在檢討討論可是終究沒辦法來根治這個校園霸凌的相關問題那就先前網路媒體所公布的這個民調在教育文化的這個政策當中民眾認為新政府最優先應該要解決的問題還是校園霸凌的這個事件那再來才是人才培育和教育的改革"},{"start":14419.463,"end":14437.504,"text":"最近這個重大的校園霸凌事件頻傳那尤其透過這個手機去拍攝然後將影片上傳到這個社群媒體再被新聞拿來做引用更是會造成這個廣泛的傳播效果那在上個禮拜宜蘭縣"},{"start":14439.008,"end":14466.007,"text":"也有一所知名的國中跆拳道隊的問題發生了令人憤慨的霸凌事件這個內容是跆拳道隊內的一名學弟對學姊施暴拳打腳踢並且這個影片在宜蘭地方的社群廣為流傳我想請教部長您對於這個案件有沒有掌握相關的內容"},{"start":14469.431,"end":14488.667,"text":"跟委員報告,謝謝委員關心校園霸凌,確實我們現在有一定程度的掌握,那當然雙方現在校園A校園有積極在處理,這以上的一個補充那這兩名學生針對這個部分,部長您了解這兩名學生是不是已經正常上課了?"},{"start":14494.079,"end":14494.88,"text":"學校有沒有啟動相關的輔導機制?"},{"start":14512.07,"end":14530.057,"text":"允許我這邊不報告因為已經跟宜蘭縣教育署有積極的聯繫了解整個的來龍去脈不過因為還在調查當中我們就在這邊不方便多說但是呢我們的確有請校方第一個維護雙方學生的安全還有以及他們的雙方的輔導的機制都已經啟動"},{"start":14533.559,"end":14549.919,"text":"市報的學生因為兩名都是跆拳道隊的隊員會不會影響到他們以後參賽的資格目前應該還不至於因為這部分比較深層的原因我們還是需要去做處理以正面輔導這部分走向為主"},{"start":14550.74,"end":14576.44,"text":"好 那我想在此我想請部長對於一個問題的重視因為兩兆學生都是未成年那網路上仍然有許多流傳的未打上馬賽克的影片在他們被施暴的過程裡面的影像都還在流傳當中我們是不是可以要求相關網路社群平台可以下架"},{"start":14578.362,"end":14590.275,"text":"是的,我想我們已經在6月9日就向iWIN網路希望能夠申請已經申請這個影片的下架那我們有沒有去追蹤看看是不是真的都下架了"},{"start":14592.688,"end":14616.034,"text":"委員報告下架這個歷來一定都會下架現在就是有些是已經先被扣起來了好那這部分再請我們署長就這個持續去追蹤看看那因為從我們中央的這個教育部到地方的教育處再到校園從這個防制校園霸凌是需要我們每一個面向"},{"start":14616.934,"end":14619.275,"text":"我相信這樣子才可以提升我們教育的環境部長您認同嗎"},{"start":14644.002,"end":14664.988,"text":"我完全認同這個委員的說法這是我們努力的 精進的好 謝謝部長 也謝謝署長 謝謝好 謝謝我們的陳俊宇委員喔 謝謝接下來 鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員武力華委員謝謝"},{"start":14676.156,"end":14679.438,"text":"謝謝主席 有請教育部長好 我們請鄭部長部長好今天委員會特別安排如何有效的防制這個毒品侵入校園以及減少霸凌但是您是教育界出身專長是教育心理學跟教育行政"},{"start":14703.274,"end":14722.277,"text":"做過大學校長也做過地方政府的教育局局長你應該很清楚老師的一顆心是孩子的一片天所以要談這些問題我今天其實是想要來談老師因為有好的老師我們來治本"},{"start":14723.078,"end":14740.153,"text":"後面呢就不會有這些太大的問題那在這裡我想要先來跟部長您看一下去年聯合報院警工程有做一個偏鄉教改的大調查那我們看一下他裡面的重點"},{"start":14741.694,"end":14761.392,"text":"幾乎都是跟人有關 招生不易 招聘老師不易 教師流動率高 也就是說既留不住人 也找不到人 而這個所謂的人是包括老師跟學生 所以在這裡我們就常常在笑 這個叫做偏鄉大逃亡"},{"start":14762.453,"end":14786.286,"text":"我們有一個叫偏鄉條例前幾年制定的我們看一下如果跟制定前它的偏鄉流動率以國小來講2.1%制定這個條例之後112學年度國小的教師流動率降到1.2%所以看起來是有效的"},{"start":14786.986,"end":14813.986,"text":"但是呢比起全國平均還是高了一點點所以表示還有需要努力的空間那特別是這一次因為偏鄉教育條例說如果9任滿8年就會有一個所謂的9任獎金所以114年也是要發放了那我們特別看一下因為聲音很多像這個偏鄉教育條例的第21條"},{"start":14815.467,"end":14833.117,"text":"他給的9任獎金是給校長、老師第二項針對專聘的老師、代理的教師、專業的輔導人員甚至社工人員他也是準用所以這個部分我想要請教一下"},{"start":14834.588,"end":14853.579,"text":"因為我有一個版本也有其他的中加病委員、賴會員等跟我一起共題就是我們想要問關於這些學校的教練、學校的護理師、學校的幹事他們是編制人員喔"},{"start":14854.68,"end":14856.081,"text":"所以想要請教一下部長您認為這個9任獎金偏鄉的這一些編制內的人員是不是應該也要一起來發放"},{"start":14870.868,"end":14894.299,"text":"我先補充一點訊息那現行我們初步統計大概明年會來發放約略有8500人那現在統計的範圍那麼是如現在未修條例前的那委員所提的這樣的一個現象或是偏鄉的處境那部長非常的關切所以他會請我們跟地方政府還有相關的團體一起來共商那我要繼續說"},{"start":14895.72,"end":14914.733,"text":"因為以我們立法院來講大家都看得很清楚當我們去做加薪的時候條4%我們是立法委員是公保那議事人員公保都沒問題可是呢連同我們的助理他們是勞保其實他們也都跟著加薪因為我們同住一個屋簷下"},{"start":14915.774,"end":14940.892,"text":"那現在就是遇到一些像是我們偏鄉地區的社監、工勇、廚工這些約聘僱勞保的人員是不是他們也應該都要有我覺得這個都一併要來去討論那大家詬病的還有一個偏鄉很不合理的就是我們的像六都喔他們學校都有保全應該部長您很清楚可是"},{"start":14941.733,"end":14952.517,"text":"很多年以前公有欲缺不補只給學校不到一萬塊的就是做這些零食雜事的一個人力終點費那這個對偏鄉來講從一早開門要去灑水要修東西那你給的錢只能拼38個小時"},{"start":14960.12,"end":14982.637,"text":"那我們要找誰?所以部長您應該都知道這個對偏鄉都極為不利所以我希望這個部分部長要好好的希望在您的任內把它整頓我覺得這個是給所有偏鄉的老師也好行政人員也好這是一個很大的強心劑那我知道那個主席再給我一分鐘另外一塊就是行政大逃亡"},{"start":14983.317,"end":14998.164,"text":"那行政大逃亡我都不用多說了投書的雜誌的新聞的很多現在部長您應該最清楚招不到行政人力了那他的癥結很簡單就是沒有誘因多少年來沒有條我當主任我當組長做這麼多工作但是我跟導師沒什麼差別"},{"start":15007.288,"end":15023.61,"text":"所以在這個部分我希望這些要做寒暑假工作做這麼多計畫做這麼多評鑑這樣一點點一千塊的差距我覺得要去正視那我特別跟部長講一下我們最近內政部有主動調高"},{"start":15024.952,"end":15049.996,"text":"明代還有那些村里長的事務費、助理費、衛民服務費等等這是內政部主動提出的所以我希望部長我提出來關於這個偏鄉大逃亡、行政大逃亡沒有人要當主任組長也不考了他的入取率是百分之兩百多所以這個部分希望兩週內給我一個報告好不好策進作為可以嗎"},{"start":15054.332,"end":15069.184,"text":"好,我相信這個做好了我們的那個一定會下降啦毒品、霸凌一定會下降給教育行政人員一個強心劑好不好好,謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席好,謝謝好,接下來我們請范雲委員謝謝謝謝昭緯,有請部長好,我們請部長"},{"start":15087.654,"end":15087.954,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15118.094,"end":15120.755,"text":"請提醒部長,感謝您勇於承擔,但是這個部分應該要跨部會來努力好不好提醒部長,也謝謝您"},{"start":15142.303,"end":15146.125,"text":"再來今天我想問的是跟教徵有關的事部長您可能不知道因為在兩年前花蓮的教師爭試發生國文老師考英文不考國文的事當時我就質詢了潘部長潘部長也認為這樣的事情不能夠接受所以教育部後來就修了跟教徵有關的行政命令"},{"start":15169.453,"end":15186.84,"text":"就是公立高級中等以下學校教師甄選作業要點其中講到中央主管機關發現有違師而且經查證屬實的時候可以請地方主管機關改正那這個相關的有這一條不知道部長曉不曉得有這個規定"},{"start":15191.847,"end":15212.853,"text":"沒關係如果部長原來不熟悉的話現在就確定有這個部分因為當時我就請教育部就是如果沒有相關規定的話應該要去了解一下因為畢竟這是地方的權限可是也不能到違反我們中央的相關的更高位階的教育基本的法令"},{"start":15213.533,"end":15240.438,"text":"所以目前在我的努力下就是去年2月的新版本在這裡那我想請問部長有沒有聽說最近臺北市有關較真的一些爭議那我要舉臺北不是針對臺北因為臺北市比較容易上新聞不代表其他縣市沒有問題那包含就是二氧化碳光合作用的氧是不是來自二氧化碳就教育局臺北市教育局公佈的答案"},{"start":15241.238,"end":15241.799,"text":"臺北市決定增額入取"},{"start":15256.535,"end":15279.901,"text":"但是就引發大家說是不是有草的就是孩童才有糖吃因為另外一題還不是教育局跟阿德勒個人心理學這個我也雖然我不是心理學專家我們那個昭偉可能更熟阿德勒我也讀過一兩本書啊那我也覺得那個丁明顯就不對因為他說補償作用只適用於有身心在者"},{"start":15280.481,"end":15291.272,"text":"可是教育局公佈的答案居然是C有這個丁在裡面然後國立大學的資商輔導學系教授已經指出了這個丁明顯就有爭議所以這答案是有問題的但是呢就是冷處理這一題我想問的事情是部長您覺得剛剛以台北市這個為例"},{"start":15302.362,"end":15316.207,"text":"這是不是也符合我們剛講的中央主管機關發現有為師而且經查證屬實應該要請聯合甄選的主管機關予以改正呢您覺得有沒有符合這個你們修訂的這一條"},{"start":15320.202,"end":15330.406,"text":"報告委員,剛剛那個他涉及到實質上那一題出題整體的認定那個比較在規範面我們當時在規範的第12條2項比較不屬於同性質了不過委員對於這一類"},{"start":15340.37,"end":15352.896,"text":"上一次我們答應的是能不能夠讓縣市出題的這個爭議減少的方法包含聯合起來有更多時間或是更好的命題例如入圍等等這個方式我們在這週五會開會"},{"start":15356.038,"end":15383.408,"text":"好 那你們會開會是好事那我針對這件事情我覺得有一個你們可以去考量的評估的是不是要給考生救濟機制因為教師對我們教育非常的重要他應該是一個重要的國家考試可是我們現在放在地方政府那過去比較大的爭議那教育部的確會去處理的像我之前講的那個花蓮縣那個國文老師考英文的事情"},{"start":15384.048,"end":15403.829,"text":"但是相關的這個爭議我相信不會只有臺北市政府那是不是你們可以去研議一下要不要給考生救濟機制而不要說每件事情因為他上新聞然後我們立委來質詢我們才有機會處理好不好就是先去研議那你們也要開會了包含救濟機制一起討論好不好"},{"start":15407.055,"end":15422.603,"text":"謝謝委員的指教但是有一些屬於地方的這些老師命題上的疏失是不是要到這個中央裡面來做成一個法規上的一些救濟我想我們再來研議"},{"start":15423.784,"end":15436.939,"text":"我想你們就去演繹喔因為這個部分到底需不需要那你至少有這個發現為師經查證屬實那這個如何發現喔就是我想這個部分你們可以演繹需不需要有這個救濟劑因為我認為它是一個重要的國家考試好不好"},{"start":15438.541,"end":15459.88,"text":"那另外一個部分就是不知道部長曉不曉得因為剛剛也都有一些相關的部分就是不適任教師也是有委員問到就是新的制度那全教總很批那家長團體跟教育團體是支持的那部長知不知道為什麼家長跟老師會意見不一樣"},{"start":15461.201,"end":15464.085,"text":"部長知道原因嗎?我想他主要是涉及到老師的權益那怎麼樣也讓這一個老師在各學在學校在處理不適應教師也老師也有參與的角色我想他們主要是在這個部分的不一致"},{"start":15478.764,"end":15498.73,"text":"但事實上當時我所理解攀部長的也是用心良苦他希望說老師的教學負擔已經夠重了如果涉及到教室的爭議的時候是不是讓我們有客觀的公正的第三者能夠來協助我想這需要一些時間再來大家加強溝通"},{"start":15499.65,"end":15502.353,"text":"的確是需要時間謀合但是有一個部分我們幫老師來想的部分是老師會擔心不知道如何遵循現在我們是改為外聘委員舉個例子剛剛也有委員問到"},{"start":15517.391,"end":15523.814,"text":"最近這個案子就是一個大學的性評會學校的教評會依照性評會建議停審三年我剛剛已經聽到了你們把它退回是因為你們認為可能這個停聘三年還不足夠當然尊重大學自主我回來講這件事情就是這樣的一個案子"},{"start":15538.661,"end":15556.721,"text":"目前教育部的準則其實只有一個韓式據我的瞭解還是非常模糊的才會出現學校的校評會依照性評會他停聘三年可是教育部覺得情節重大他情節的確重大因為這個案子只是我們辦公室之前也有接到陳情他是複數的學生"},{"start":15558.042,"end":15565.35,"text":"可是為什麼學校跟你們的判定會不一樣就是我們對於不適任教師比如這個老師是不是已經不適合當老師了沒有一個比較清楚的準則那這個部分那其實體罰的事情我們也遇到老師帶領全班學生去討論要如何出班規結果大家討論出來說應該要罰跑操場等等"},{"start":15579.845,"end":15609.177,"text":"老師就這麼去做了後來被判定體罰老師認為這不是體罰因為是同學民主討論出來的班規我覺得老師在這個新時代遇到的問題就像剛剛有委員說的就是好像他的武器變少了那可是動不動就會被認為是霸凌或者是體罰那我一直主張教育部要訂出怎麼樣是好的就是老師的行為準則要怎麼管教"},{"start":15610.698,"end":15637.34,"text":"剛剛這個老師就是他最後被學校調查只有成立不斷管教那家長還對霸凌不成立提出申復申復成功後學校需要重啓調查那這些事情真的不斷在發生那今天召委辦的這個霸凌這個主題非常的重要那我希望教育部不是從零開始做因為去年我擔任召委的時候我們就辦了一個反霸凌降低霸凌的公聽會"},{"start":15638.621,"end":15660.854,"text":"教育部不知道記不記得你們應該記不記得不知道部長知不知道你們當時承諾要進行跨國研究因為我自己在做國會外交的時候到英國、德國、比利時我們都有特別跟他們的教育部會因為名稱不一定叫教育部相關的人請議有看到各國對於反霸凌或者等等"},{"start":15661.514,"end":15681.788,"text":"其實都有一些不同的做法跟準則所以教育部我有跟你們要資料你們現在4到6月正在請委辦研究專家學者嚴寧計劃籌組研究計劃團隊那可不可以部長可不可以告訴我們現在進度是不是依照你們的規劃說明是正在嚴寧計劃呢謝謝委員的提醒其實我們部裡邊已經在"},{"start":15690.297,"end":15694.082,"text":"今年4月已經有用專案委託大學的專家來進行跨國的研究"},{"start":15700.083,"end":15702.906,"text":"我希望這個報告是很有品質的因為教育的問題不會只有台灣發生至少別的國家的不錯的經驗我們要能夠了解看看是不是能夠適用在台灣否則這樣的議題一直出現"},{"start":15726.066,"end":15755.146,"text":"現有的老師真的覺得非常的困擾那我們要給他一個好的工具說如何不是體罰然後不是違反教育部的霸凌相關的規定做好管教工作好不好所以我今天的兩個規定就是不是規定講錯了兩個對教育部長的期待跟要求就是第一個那個教真的亂象教育部那應該要研議一下我剛剛所講的那個部分第二個教師行為準則的跨國研究持續進行"},{"start":15755.686,"end":15756.126,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長好,部長"},{"start":15791.793,"end":15817.284,"text":"部長好,今天我要跟你討論有關怎麼樣來防治毒品進入校園我先讓部長看一下這個是你們校安通報學生藥物濫用的統計在這幾年當中數據感覺好像也是差不多是這樣子沒有多大的變化另外我想請教就是說"},{"start":15819.94,"end":15837.597,"text":"這個我們這個是校安中心所呈報出來的一個統計那另外有關這個警方這一邊的他的這個涉毒嫌疑人的資料跟學籍勾結的這個結果那他這個數據跟我們這個校安通報的這個數據是完全"},{"start":15840.319,"end":15856.694,"text":"就是完全不一樣那哪一個數據才是正確的這個是我等一下要請教部長的另外就是說我們看到這個之前這個行政院也有特別提到就是說教育部法務部內政部衛福部會共同討論這個反毒的業務跟工作劃被動為主動"},{"start":15865.121,"end":15887.993,"text":"更積極地檢視毒品的防制業務執行的狀況我想請教部長在這幾年當中怎麼樣強化校園的藥物濫用防制近三年的成效到底是怎樣這個數據為什麼跟警方的數據是完全鬥不攏的是不是可以請部長回答"},{"start":15891.583,"end":15911.771,"text":"警方查獲的數據都會提供給教育部進行學級的比對那學級比對確定他是在學生才會納入這個充分輔導的個案所以那個目前警方這裡統計的官司高中時跟大專的人數遠比我們大得多很有可能是還沒有經過這個學級比對之後的結果"},{"start":15916.689,"end":15943.52,"text":"所以我想請教就是說教育部針對這一部分因為我看那個數據其實每一年呈現出來的數據其實也沒有差多少那你們到底在推動毒品防制的這一部分到底你們自己有沒有設定一個目標或設定什麼樣的成效什麼樣的成效、什麼樣的數據才是你們認為是有效的防制毒品進入校園"},{"start":15944.6,"end":15964.892,"text":"你們自己有沒有設定一個目標?我們設定目標是希望能夠新生的射毒人口是可以逐年減少至於已經射毒的部分它的再犯率我們也希望透過輔導那個輔導成功率能提升讓它再犯率可以降低那經過這樣子你們覺得成效如何?"},{"start":15967.751,"end":15986.019,"text":"各位報告,這幾年有受到疫情的因素的干擾所以數字有降、有增情況還不是非常穩定可能需要更長的時間做觀察各位報告,我們目前的做法還是第一個就是"},{"start":15987.566,"end":16002.405,"text":"對於可能潛在的黑素的部分要持續的做清查包括校內的部分觀察學生有異樣的表現的部分透過尿塞確定他是個案把他納入輔導另外同時他對於查獲涉毒個案的學生"},{"start":16003.306,"end":16003.866,"text":"司法部長"},{"start":16025.698,"end":16046.215,"text":"我們希望就是說教育部針對這一部分應該也要設定自己一個目標怎麼樣怎麼去降低這個人數那時間到那個主席列席委員四分鐘因為現在快到一點鐘了好不好各位麻煩一下不好意思那其他的我再跟私下再跟部長討論好好好謝謝"},{"start":16048.137,"end":16049.097,"text":"時間寶貴只有240秒請教育部鄭部長休息一下"},{"start":16079.754,"end":16105.489,"text":"來 休息一下學特斯 吳司長學特斯 謝謝這個校園這個霸凌跟這個毒品防治的是學特斯的主要的業務嘛是你這個校安通報 要無濫用國中高中職大學教學現場裡面高中職占多數 對不對對國中跟高中職也差不多大專比較小"},{"start":16106.677,"end":16127.794,"text":"大概這個黑數大概有多少?你看每年大概加起來大概500對不對?我不相信這個全國這個包括國中、高中跟大專只有500個通報黑數大概你估計多少?我請法務部警察、國司長一起來"},{"start":16129.502,"end":16158.01,"text":"跟委員說明我們其實有很努力的清查啦這個除了警方查獲的以外我們透過校內的特定學生你給我個數據或者大概黑數大概有多少跟委員報告這個如果可以知道我們就把他抓出來了你當然要想辦法知道啊這是你的工作你的責任是所以你是司長當然要掌握黑數有多少是而你又不能答那代表說你通報機制有問題該通報未通報有沒有法則"},{"start":16159.853,"end":16186.249,"text":"會有究責有沒有因此究責過?你要拿出更好的方法把黑樹抓出來才能了解說這個毒品在校園犯案的情況到底都會區跟非都會區有沒有差別?有沒有差別?跟委員報告這個部分應該是有差別的啦應該是有當然是應該有才問你嘛那差別多少?都會區比較嚴重還是非都會區比較嚴重?"},{"start":16189.856,"end":16207.985,"text":"非都會區因為學生人數少相對而言它的百分比例變動我説比例啦 我説比例嘛是是是相對變動比例會跳動的比較大都會地區運營部說大你不要統計學的數字還跟我說你要一個趨勢告訴我我不要求你詳細的數字等一下你趨勢要告訴我是非都會區比較嚴重還是非都會區比較嚴重"},{"start":16209.83,"end":16228.064,"text":"你不能回答,我請檢察司,這個國司長因你這個檢查實務來看,在校園這個要濫用這個黑數目前每年大概500件左右,那黑數大概有多少?根文報告,因為那個青少年試用毒品這一塊"},{"start":16228.925,"end":16230.907,"text":"沒有三倍也有五倍沒有三倍也有五倍"},{"start":16255.566,"end":16272.334,"text":"所以這個避重就輕代表說你黑數抓不出來你黑數抓不出來你就沒辦法去防治你就沒辦法去預防你就沒辦法去處理 對不對好接下來霸凌霸凌的數據在哪裡霸凌的數據在哪裡數字在哪裡啊數字啊你過去3年在國中教育現場跟高中時大專的霸凌的件數通報件數有多少"},{"start":16282.076,"end":16309.247,"text":"一年大概3000件左右不能大概3000件你每年度的數據要出來是你以為這邊是遊樂場啊有 真有錢根委員報告109年你要數據要提供這個是專案報告是針對霸凌針對這個毒品濫用對不對是所以你要詳細數據看看這個每年的這個變化有根委員在這個生對生那失對生的呢失對生也有但是失對生的比率相對少很多那還是有黑數"},{"start":16310.697,"end":16311.078,"text":"我看你的報告裡面"},{"start":16328.479,"end":16329.099,"text":"最後10秒鐘請部長"},{"start":16350.509,"end":16378.237,"text":"你生對生有一個準則來應用然後你這個施對生教那個權力不對等你用這個解聘教什麼解聘的辦法我覺得不夠周延是不是比照這個生對生施對生的這個霸凌也用一個有一個客觀的一個調查委員會來處理有有有這個我們事實上也都有調查小組而且是一個都是外聘的一個委員"},{"start":16379.485,"end":16379.785,"text":"謝謝主席 請部長"},{"start":16412.642,"end":16436.828,"text":"部長您知道現在家長最憂心的事情是包括毒品進入校園的這個問題是你知道吧是那要怎麼樣讓家長安心呢因為這些孩子呢他設施衛生所以他基於這個好奇刺激引誘所以會導致這樣的情況所以我們要討論這個問題呢電子菸的部分現在"},{"start":16442.284,"end":16460.965,"text":"教育部最近也提出了他這個年輕化把它加在這裡面那把它加在這裡面這該當怎麼辦所以本席要請教這樣子的個案接下來我們是暑假是暑假喔那我們要如何相關因應方案"},{"start":16462.339,"end":16482.121,"text":"事實上在每一年的暑假我們在各縣市的教育局處都會跟警政單位能夠這一個部長打斷你的回答是因為本期不希望聽到以往怎麼樣因為你是新任的部長以往的數字我倒要告訴你是越來越糟糕"},{"start":16483.314,"end":16495.961,"text":"所以我希望新人有心作為,您要怎麼應應?我想簡單的講,就跟委員報告,我們過去可能暑假只有一次兩個次,我們會增加這個查訪的許多那個關鍵的那個這個場所,我們會增加查緝的這些頻率"},{"start":16505.145,"end":16528.015,"text":"你所告訴我的是增加查緝我希望你還有其他方案輸入資料給本席接下來我要請問您的是說學生藥物濫用在我們的資料裡頭是越來越年輕這個讓我最憂心越來越年輕那就怎麼辦越來越年輕呢所以本席要請教你應該是從根源"},{"start":16529.72,"end":16530.02,"text":"請教育部長"},{"start":16550.092,"end":16551.433,"text":"部長,你告訴我的這一些呢"},{"start":16579.463,"end":16581.204,"text":"接下來 校園霸凌的問題網路上一直在輪 一直在輪 我好緊張"},{"start":16602.573,"end":16603.474,"text":"每年都破千在107年"},{"start":16617.755,"end":16627.542,"text":"確認比例可以達到百分之三十但是相對三件就有一件是成案的但是我們看到現在112年7月份的時候它的比例是達不到一成是9%那這個問題到底是怎麼樣呢我們明知道它越來越嚴重但是你成案的越來越少它是謊報還是我們沒有認真查還是不敢去面對部長"},{"start":16641.519,"end":16643.46,"text":"請你把方案給我主動防範調查機制好不好 把方案給我 謝謝"},{"start":16670.419,"end":16698.579,"text":"好,非常謝謝我們的楊瓊英委員謝謝謝謝部長賴瑞龍委員賴瑞龍委員賴瑞龍委員林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員李燕秀委員李燕秀委員李燕秀委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員報告委員會我們今天登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢另外有萬美林委員提出書面"},{"start":16700.26,"end":16719.451,"text":"關於今天的會議我們做如下的決定報告及答詢完畢委員所提的書面資料或是相關的資料列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分請相關機關競速以書面答覆報告委員會我們今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝大家"},{"start":16736.683,"end":16745.799,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16757.52,"end":16759.682,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":16790.378,"end":16790.598,"text":"致詢委員會議"},{"start":16824.428,"end":16828.319,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"15997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15997","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e38aadac80e2e3f80445fc32f41448fc019186e52af124432fd32fd1b2a11fb755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-12T08:30:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:41:00+08:00","duration":15044,"影片長度":"04:10:44","委員發言時間":"08:30:16 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群仙樓九樓大禮堂出席委員黃珊珊等14人列席委員鍾嘉斌等21人列席官員113年6月3日星期一財政部部長莊翠穎行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝等113年6月6日星期四中央銀行總裁楊金龍經濟部常務次長林全仁等主席羅昭菊委員名才"},{"start":1914.074,"end":1941.849,"text":"113.623日報告事項先讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定討論事項1.繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》14案1.本院臺灣民政黨黨團拟據《財政收支劃分法》修正草案案2.本院國民黨黨團委員羅明財等23人委員林思明等20人委員徐宇貞等16人委員洪孟凱等22人分別拟據《財政收支劃分法》部分條件修正草案等5案3.本院委員吳立華等17人拟據《財政收支劃分法》第三條條件修正草案案"},{"start":1942.589,"end":1958.061,"text":"4.本院委員陳玉珍等24人理據《財政收支劃分法》第8條條案修正草案5.本院委員王洪威等24人理據《財政收支劃分法》第8條、第12條及第30條條案修正草案6.本院委員陳昌明等17人理據《財政收支劃分法》第8條、第12條及第16條之一"},{"start":1960.263,"end":1975.736,"text":"條文修正草案7.本院委員代6人等16人委員蔡玉琳等16人分別擬據《財政收支劃分法》第16條之1條文修正草案等2案8.本院委員代事保等29人擬據《財政收支劃分法》第16條之2、第37條之2及第38條之2條文修正草案"},{"start":1976.957,"end":2002.975,"text":"9.本院委員戴世保等22人拟據《財政收支劃分法》第38條之一條人修正草案2.審查《財政收支劃分法》商案1.本院委員丁學忠等17人拟據《財政收支劃分法》部分條人修正草案2.本院委員黃建豪等21人拟據《財政收支劃分法》第8條及第12條條人修正草案3.本院委員邱振軍等19人拟據《財政收支劃分法》第8條、第12條及第16條之一條人修正草案"},{"start":2003.775,"end":2018.821,"text":"本日會議藉由討論事項繼續詢答藉由委員黃珊珊等11人提出質詢均經財政部部長莊翠穎等予以答覆決議一、詢答完畢二、委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定"},{"start":2020.062,"end":2031.878,"text":"3.委員萬美玲、邱振軍、羅廷偉、廖先祥、莊嘉斌、邱樂華所提書面質詢及委員努許婷所提書面補充資料均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆4."},{"start":2031.878,"end":2034.482,"text":"財政收支劃分法17案令則其繼續審查"},{"start":2036.484,"end":2064.887,"text":"2013年6月6日,報告事項,邀請中央銀行楊總裁金隆就《日元貶值效應惠佛導致亞洲貨幣競變及對台灣經濟影響》進行專題報告並被質詢,另邀請經濟部列席備詢經中央銀行總裁楊金隆提出報告後,據由委員林大夫等17人提出質詢,均經中央銀行總裁楊金隆等予以答覆決定,依報告質詢答案必,二人質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊,請相關部會予以周內與書面答覆,委員另要求期限者從其鎖定"},{"start":2065.347,"end":2071.179,"text":"三、委員陳毅臻所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆宣布完畢"},{"start":2072.981,"end":2080.466,"text":"好,請問各位委員對上次議事錄有無異議?無異議,議事錄確定請議事錄委員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":2103.941,"end":2132.168,"text":"好原理介紹在場委員與會政府官員首先介紹我們財務會資深委員林德福林委員另外也是資深委員吳秉瑞吳委員好我們介紹在場的這個官員金管會彭金隆主委許退文處長銀行局莊秀元局長政企局張振山局長"},{"start":2134.278,"end":2159.746,"text":"保險局施琼華局長檢察局張子浩局長我們證交所林修銘董事長簡立中總經理吉保有限公司林秉輝董事長陳德湘總經理歸買中心陳永成董事長李愛玲總經理"},{"start":2162.315,"end":2167.997,"text":"法務部徐祥政務司長、簡美師副司長、內政部警察局黃仁聰黃副局長"},{"start":2178.496,"end":2196.362,"text":"我們今日議程就邀請金管會彭主委、法務部、內政部警政署就《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業淪為詐騙工具、金管會就虛擬資產專法制定"},{"start":2201.764,"end":2206.469,"text":"接著我們就要進行專題報告也請報告人稍微重要的報告因為時間上的關係現在請金管會彭主委進行專題報告"},{"start":2218.615,"end":2238.225,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位媒體朋友大家好今天非常高興代表金管會針對以下兩個主題提出專題報告首先,虛擬資產及VASP迅速發展因為虛擬資產交易具有匿名、跨境及不易追蹤的性質容易成為詐騙活動的溫床各國已經開始加強監管"},{"start":2241.587,"end":2259.678,"text":"另外因為虛擬資產有較高的洗錢及滋恐風險國際上許多國家對於VASP的管理都是由洗錢防制及打擊滋恐的角度開始納管我們也是採用漸進的方式強化業者管理及消費者保護以下針對本專案兩個主題說明如下"},{"start":2260.68,"end":2283.544,"text":"一、為防止不法集團利用人頭賬戶收取犯罪所得防制不當利用VASP從事詐騙活動一、《洗錢防制法》第15條之一及第15條之二以禁止無證當理由收集或提供虛擬資產帳號之不法行為而且我們已經訂定相關的管理辦法規定若違反這個規定的話那個VASP將限制其虛擬資產帳號之功能及拒絕開立新帳號"},{"start":2286.385,"end":2306.141,"text":"另外本會為加強國人市詐能力除了加強虛擬資產商品性質及風險的教育宣導外亦多次發布新聞稿提醒國人並請周邊單位建置聯合建置非金管會核准之證券期貨及商品警示專區提升民眾市詐能力"},{"start":2307.315,"end":2322.407,"text":"二、在目前在大院審議中的《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》草案通過後預期的效益說明如下一、可以及時攔阻可疑、避留未爭取主詐時效金融機構及VASP發現涉詐"},{"start":2324.608,"end":2339.819,"text":"犯罪之可疑帳戶時﹐可以採取暫停存入、提領、匯出等控管措施﹐恰惠同業取得額外資訊或通報司法警察﹐及時阻斷詐騙金流、幣流二、建立聯防通報機制﹐VASP應該配合司法"},{"start":2340.76,"end":2365.807,"text":"警察機關建立聯防通報機制對疑似涉詐款項與虛擬資產圈存管控加速返還招詐款項為強化被害人之財產保護規定如今司法機關通知暫停交易功能之賬戶人留有被害人匯入之款項或是虛擬資產時VASP得依司法警察通知協助返還被害人"},{"start":2369.014,"end":2380.005,"text":"源頭斷詐宣導未遵守相關規範之法環未來將可處心台幣20萬到200萬之法環情節重大者可以加重5倍處罰接下來針對虛擬資產、交易、VASP管理專法"},{"start":2385.202,"end":2400.229,"text":"而進程進行報告本會奉行政院指定擔任據金融投資或支付性質虛擬資產之主管機關及開始參考國際趨勢以洗錢防制為基礎採漸進強化業者管理及消費者保護策略逐步納管"},{"start":2401.169,"end":2417.45,"text":"有關VASP相關事項之管理本會系一漸進納管方式共分以下四個階段進行第一階段本會於110年6月30日參考國際防制洗錢金融行動工作組織之指引依據《洗錢防制法規》發布《VASP洗房辦法》"},{"start":2419.364,"end":2445.153,"text":"規範為他人從事虛擬資產相關活動為業者屬VASP應先向本會完成《洗錢防制法》令遵循聲明使得從事營業活動違反者將令其限期改善藉其為改善《洗錢防制法》第6條第4項規定處罰目前已經完成法遵聲明之VASP共25家形態包括交易所、買賣平台、實體店面、虛擬資產、自動櫃員機"},{"start":2447.034,"end":2456.665,"text":"及託管系統商等VASP洗房辦法規範執行業務時應執行確認客戶身份紀錄保存大額可依現金交流"},{"start":2457.822,"end":2480.219,"text":"大額及可依現金、交易、申報等措施違反者亦可依法處罰本會於110年已經完成3家VASP洗錢防制的訪查112年已經對4家進行專案檢查113年開始會新增列入年度檢查實施對象我們也從銀行端控管VASP洗錢及止恐風險在107年後陸續採取以下措施進行管理"},{"start":2484.67,"end":2504.983,"text":"第二階段我們積極推動設立VASP同業商業工會並制定自立規範管理為強化VASP客戶權益保護我們參考IOSCO、MECA、日韓港等有關規範訂定管理虛擬資產平台及交易業務指導原則重要內容包括平台資產與客戶資產的分離保管"},{"start":2506.124,"end":2531.894,"text":"交易公平及透明度建立資訊安全及冷熱錢包制管理虛擬資產上下架等審查機制多項原則再來我們督導VASP的同業工會設立並依指導原則定定自律規範VASP工會預計於113年6月13日召開成立大會本會將後續將積極督導該工會依據VASP指導原則精神定定自律規範並加入法則以強化自律"},{"start":2532.754,"end":2559.779,"text":"第三階段,與《洗錢防制法》徵定VASP登記制、明確VASP定義及對非法業者刻以刑事責任等加強管理並嚴育於執法中採取差異化管理今本會與法務部多次研商參考美國、英國、澳洲、南韓及香港等主要金融體對未取得執照註冊之VASP定有刑事責任之立法例與《洗錢防制法》修正草案中徵定未依規定登記而從事業務之VASP刻以"},{"start":2560.419,"end":2588.959,"text":"行事責任加強管理未來規劃於授權執法中對於登記的VASP業者依業務複雜程度採差異化管理並研議VASP指導原則重要內容納入登記執法之範圍為更加明確個人避傷亦受為規範之對象《洗錢防制法》第6條修正草案對VASP的定義已經加入提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員以明確個人避傷作為受規範之對象"},{"start":2590.27,"end":2608.94,"text":"第4階段我們推動虛擬資產管理專法立法以更有效納管市場行為同時促進金融科技及VASP產業健全發展我們現在已經委託專家研究團隊進行VASP管理專法進行研究未來專法制定的重點會在於虛擬資產的"},{"start":2611.321,"end":2634.822,"text":"監理重點包括業者的許可條件、消費者保護、資本額要求、資產保管、市場交易行為規範及業務發展等研究團隊預計在今年9月提供期末報告初稿本會預計在今年12月底前嚴提虛擬資產管理專法的條文草案後續辦理法規預告、辦理公聽、再依外界意見調整預計在114年6月前將專法報院"},{"start":2639.875,"end":2663.311,"text":"二、促進金融科技及VASP產業健全發展虛擬資產系快速發展之新興科技各國亦積極發展相關產業我國在區塊鏈及虛擬資產領域具有一定的技術能力相關基礎建設完善未來具有發展潛力本會專法制定除積極推動專法納管業者增強市場健全與服務品之外將透過有效措施積極輔導業者促進產業發展強化我國金融科技的國際競爭力"},{"start":2668.434,"end":2696.68,"text":"為維護我國金融秩序及保障國人財產安全本會將持續透過法規完善與落實執行達成阻絕詐騙、防制洗錢與保護消費者之目的台灣在虛擬資產領域有一定的技術與專業實力本會於強化業者管理及消費者保護前提下落實安全與發展並進的監理目標將積極推動專法納管業者並同時推動產業健全發展以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2698.026,"end":2701.594,"text":"好 謝謝彭主委的報告 接著我們請法務部徐政次進行專題報告"},{"start":2710.99,"end":2737.672,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會就本次專案報告代表本部提出報告並被質詢因本部就《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》系主則第三章溯源打詐執法章及第四章詐欺犯罪被害人保護上開草案關於金融防詐措施部分"},{"start":2738.893,"end":2757.863,"text":"金融監督管理委員會就金管會主責故就今日虛擬資產議題僅提供本部與洗錢防制面向之意見如下進行指教一、本部離去之《洗錢防制法》修正草案規定本部為行政院打詐綱領懲詐面的主責機關就辦理懲詐業務的刻不容緩"},{"start":2763.966,"end":2787.274,"text":"務求有效打擊新興犯罪且我國為亞太防制洗錢組織的創始會員國為因應即將到來的第四輪相互評鑑需積極對於第三輪相互評鑑被指出的缺失進行改進以符合國際規範要求本部因此擬據《洗錢防制法》修正草案"},{"start":2787.994,"end":2806.648,"text":"經行政院會於113年5月9日通過並於113年6月3日經大院逐條審查後保留二條文其餘條文均照行政院提案通過與虛擬資產及交易業務事務相關之草案為第6條跟20條已出審通過"},{"start":2808.969,"end":2829.588,"text":"該二條重點如下一、草案第六條徵定對於虛擬資產服務之事業及人員未完成洗錢防制登記卻在境內提供服務者或境外設立而未依公司法完成公司或分公司登記及洗錢防制登記卻提供服務者那科與刑責最重可處兩以下其徒刑並科新台幣500萬元以下罰金"},{"start":2834.261,"end":2862.355,"text":"理據此規定之理由跟效應一、防制洗錢金融行動工作組織也就是FATF評鑑方法論建議第15項之技術遵循評鑑準則第4點指出應要求提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員與其設立或業務所在之司法管轄區取得執照或登記這一點我們就可以符合第二"},{"start":2863.255,"end":2878.118,"text":"因美、澳洲、南韓、香港之洗錢防制相關法案或規定對於未取得執照或登記之虛擬資產業者均定有刑責以有效調查跟管制"},{"start":2879.76,"end":2907.74,"text":"2.草案的第20條配合信心洗錢犯罪手法與特殊洗錢罪徵定以不實身份申請開立虛擬資產帳號或以不正方法取得使用他人之虛擬資產帳號而無合理來源收受、持有或使用財物或財產上利益之刑責最重可處年有期徒刑並科新台幣五千萬元罰金"},{"start":2909.642,"end":2936.113,"text":"修正草案對於圍堵虛擬資產業者淪為詐騙工具之作用草案第6條規範對象為提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員因此目前司法實務上最為執法機關所詬病之個人弊傷亦在規範範圍內而本條所謂洗錢防制登記及金管會所訂定虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業"},{"start":2938.9,"end":2966.11,"text":"防制洗錢及打擊知恐辦法第17條所稱之洗錢防制法令遵循聲明又有關個人避傷金管會於112年9月26日發布之管理虛擬資產平台及交易業務事業指導原則第11點規定業者需進行內部控制及機構查核指導原則附則第1點第1款規定個人避傷"},{"start":2967.39,"end":2990.331,"text":"法尊聲明之內容跟品質需與法人組織相當因此《洗錢防制法》修正草案第6條通過後個人弊傷坦無法完成《洗錢防制法》尊聲明卻提供服務最縱將可疑兩年有期徒刑對於司法實務上涉詐個人弊傷將生一定制裁及嚇阻效果"},{"start":2991.091,"end":3011.396,"text":"蓋以行者強化納管、自源頭把關可及早攔截不合法合規業者之違法行為防止後續延伸更複雜而偵辦困難之洗錢犯行如金管會研擬相關規範時需本部提供法治意見本部將積極配合辦理結語本部為了落實打詐綱領之懲詐業務積極督導台灣高等檢察署"},{"start":3019.278,"end":3039.617,"text":"增強犯罪增防,例如強化反電信詐騙資料庫系統功能建置金融資料調閱電子化平台加速調取交易資料與國內四大虛擬資產交易所合作建立KYC資料線上調取平台"},{"start":3041.179,"end":3056.614,"text":"規劃擴大在屆屆至8家國內交易所並建立虛擬資產跨部會聯繫平台即時通報共同查緝匯整境內境外虛擬資產交易所資料調取管道落實通報大額或可疑虛擬資產交易"},{"start":3058.556,"end":3081.763,"text":"防制洗錢本部將繼續不斷督促所屬檢察機關精進犯罪偵查能力以有效打擊犯罪、守護國人財產法益以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教好 謝謝許正式的專題報告接著我們請內政部警政署刑事警察局黃副局長仁聰報告"},{"start":3092.677,"end":3104.252,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、各位媒體朋友大家好首先感謝各位委員對於防制虛擬資產、交易業務事業淪為詐騙工具的重視與關心本署進程以下報告敬請各位委員會與指導在虛擬資產"},{"start":3107.717,"end":3123.641,"text":"涉及詐騙的現況的部分近年來與虛擬資產相關的詐騙案件數量逐漸增加在2023年全班詐欺的案件總共37,000餘件被害案件中有涉及虛擬資產的案件約有11,405件佔整體比例近三成相關的財損也達到現代幣53.45億元"},{"start":3133.986,"end":3146.207,"text":"虛擬資產今年逐漸有取代實體賬戶使用的趨勢其被利用於詐騙的手法很多元目前國內最常見的仍然是透過網路社群軟體來進行詐騙詳述如下第一個"},{"start":3147.735,"end":3167.413,"text":"詐騙集團會先經過臉書、IG、YouTube、Google或簡訊投放假投資的廣告來吸引被害人進行假交友第二,取得被害人的信任以後會宣稱保證獲利來吸引被害者加入LINE來聯繫並邀約加入LINE社群提供免費的投資教學"},{"start":3168.174,"end":3186.797,"text":"第三,被害人上當以後會接續提供假投資網站或APP給被害人來註冊再介紹虛擬資產的必商讓被害人消費並要求轉匯至假投資網站或APP的電子錢包地址第四,詐騙結論可能會透過簽署智慧合約或是典埋"},{"start":3188.659,"end":3215.936,"text":"點擊埋了惡意程式的連結讓被害人的虛擬資產的控制權入入歹徒手中第五為了吸引被害人加碼投入出其網站或APP的運作並沒有異常甚至可以提領獲利但是這些出金可能都是來自於其他被害人第六當被害人投入的資金達到一定程度要想一次提領獲利的時候詐騙集團即以各種藉口開始拖延甚至就直接關閉網站自此免無音訊"},{"start":3217.714,"end":3233.423,"text":"再來是報告有關虛擬資產詐騙案件我們目前正在所遇的困境第一個是個人避傷的身份難以查證目前虛擬資產交易業務事業的有關的規定受規範的業者以國內涉惡利益登記者為限"},{"start":3233.843,"end":3256.117,"text":"但是這個事業目前並非特許制所以不需登記也可以從事使得自然人的身份來從業的個人弊商更難以受到規範目前實務上查緝屢遭犯嫌主張他是經營個人弊商合法交易為理由對其掩飾隱匿詐騙賬款進行來抗騙且不乏因此獲法院獲判無罪的案例"},{"start":3256.994,"end":3279.964,"text":"第二是個人的錢包具有高度的匿名性因為個人的電子錢包軟體無從落實KYC然後個人錢包就會有匿名性高、申請速度快、成本低且無窗口可供調閱機制的這個狀況詐騙集團常常拿來作為第二三層的中基錢包使用第三是境外交易所的合作有限"},{"start":3281.044,"end":3281.104,"text":"第4次"},{"start":3297.182,"end":3321.269,"text":"境外交易所的帳號如果要凍結的話需要外國法院的令狀如果詐騙的款項流向境外交易所我們警方雖然可以向該交易所來申請緊急凍結但是如果有延長或扣押的必要就要向法院來申請扣押裁定那如果欲申請凍結的錢包帳號的登記人不是我國的人民就要向該登記人國籍所屬的法院來申請那實務上"},{"start":3322.97,"end":3344.848,"text":"也常常碰到法官認為這個案件沒有管轄權或是因為多次的承轉難以證明只有被害人的被害管項進薄為裁扣之申請第三在《洗錢防法》與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》修正草案有關於我們二組虛擬資產被利用於詐騙犯罪的做法"},{"start":3345.849,"end":3361.689,"text":"在《洗飯法修正草案》第6條規定提供虛擬資產服務的事業或人員如果沒有向中央目的事業主管機關完整洗房登記不得提供服務有違則可以處兩年以下有企圖刑、拘役或科或兵科現代幣500萬元以下的罰金"},{"start":3363.852,"end":3382.493,"text":"第二點是有關《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》的草案的部分在第八條有對於疑涉詐欺犯罪的相關的控管措施並可以召回同業第九條是依第八條的規定要保存它的所得跟資料"},{"start":3385.415,"end":3399.402,"text":"第10條是業者要跟司法警察機關建立聯防通報機制並且對於通報的虛擬資產可以進行圈存跟監控第11條是依第9條規定可以後續暫停的這些帳號如果沒有"},{"start":3405.104,"end":3425.509,"text":"經過提領可以依照原通知機關的通知發還剩餘的虛擬資產第12條是對於業者依規定者可以免足其業務上保守秘密的義務第13條是相關的罰則如果未遵守相關的規定可以由中央目的主管機關處新台幣20萬元以上200萬元以下的罰還並且可以按次處罰"},{"start":3430.574,"end":3459.434,"text":"接下來是報告這兩個法令對於修正這兩個修正草案對於詐欺的防制的作用在《洗房法》第6條的修正草案以法令來法令遵循聲明登記制度介入協助規範從業的行為從經營源頭賦予刑事法來進行約束具有嚇阻的效果而且條文裡面有徵定人員這兩個文字即包括自然人在內效力可以給予所謂的個人必傷"},{"start":3460.274,"end":3479.002,"text":"未來,針對意圖從事詐欺而未完成洗房登記人經營個人避傷的行為將有法可以處罰第二是《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》的相關規定這裡面有制定虛擬資產業者相關的防詐措施科與業者防詐義務而且有發還被害人"},{"start":3479.562,"end":3499.705,"text":"的一些賬號的餘額更可以強化查緝虛擬資產詐騙案件的法令依據及偵辦工具可以有效地惡煮虛擬資產淪為詐騙集團濫用的一個現象所以重上本署對於上述的兩項法案都希望能夠順利地完成修法的作業"},{"start":3500.626,"end":3525.248,"text":"且與協力強化打擊詐騙犯罪相為本署的一個重點工作我們將透過與相關公司部門的共同合作達成溯源查緝幕後詐騙集團的目標藉此來落實犯罪領導人的政策並有效阻絕不法資金的流傳確保個人財產安全與國家金融秩序的運作以上報告懇請各位委員予以指教並敬祝身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":3526.809,"end":3543.714,"text":"謝謝黃副局長的報告接著我們先來開始詢答先做一下宣告每位初期委員發言時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間為5分鐘今日上午10時30分截止發言登記現在依照登記順序請第一位林德福委員質詢"},{"start":3557.562,"end":3576.826,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請金管會彭主委還有請彭主委委員好主委你好主委我請教因為金管會上個禮拜有公布最新Google臉書整個詐騙案的統計5月標高到5105件那"},{"start":3584.811,"end":3605.276,"text":"僅次於1月的高峰5203件是去年同期2497件的兩倍按照政期局接獲民眾陳情投資詐騙的案件主要集中在三大的太陽裡面第一種是推薦"},{"start":3607.297,"end":3610.239,"text":"民眾安裝假投資平台 並宣稱APP可插隊搶賬"},{"start":3616.421,"end":3640.399,"text":"這個暫停版的這些股票並保證獲利第二種就是宣稱虛擬貨幣的交易有高獲利勸誘民眾來投資虛擬貨幣等那第三種則是詐團詐團會宣稱自己是經過金管會核准的合法投資投顧事業並偽造、證照來"},{"start":3644.262,"end":3648.663,"text":"詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人"},{"start":3671.607,"end":3689.005,"text":"你認為就能夠達到預防的效果嗎是 謝謝委員其實防詐是一個多面向的工作像比如說就以今晚會主政主要是兩大部分一個是市詐跟主詐特別是主詐的部分那主詐的部分我們大概是透過一些帳戶的管理"},{"start":3690.106,"end":3708.062,"text":"市詐的部分我們當然是透過各種的教育宣導我們在過去透過我們金融機構以及周邊單位已經辦過非常多的這個所謂的市詐的工作不過這個是一個要持續來做的事情那另外我們對主詐特別是進入到金流以後對賬戶的管理這是我們監管的重點以上"},{"start":3708.584,"end":3708.724,"text":"主委啊"},{"start":3737.596,"end":3762.771,"text":"詐團手法變化多端本席認為這些犯罪從業的首腦對社會整個脈動的變化掌控掌握度往往能夠與時俱進以至於受害者遍及社會各個層面案件呈現有增無減主委今晚會公告合法業者的名單希望民眾"},{"start":3763.812,"end":3791.136,"text":"投資前先查詢確認是我為合法業者以確保整個投資的安全另外一方面民眾在金管會核准的證券期貨業者以及商品警示專區也可以查詢到黑名單那業者等資訊請問主委你認為單純公告宣導效果好不好"},{"start":3791.676,"end":3791.796,"text":"主委"},{"start":3821.027,"end":3840.988,"text":"因為詐團都已經透過網路平台、社群媒體進行無孔不入的犯罪手段和行為那我請問主委你認為政府機關有沒有更積極的宣導手段進而建立內化民眾正常的投資判斷的觀念呢"},{"start":3841.408,"end":3863.479,"text":"是我覺得這是我們所有政府努力的目標就像我們在剛剛講源頭控管非常重要剛剛委員也提到就是說我們比如說剛剛很多的這個詐騙廣告都是來自於一些平台那我們也積極的努力跟他們溝通那再來就是我們現在不斷的強調我們也透過未來很多的宣導希望民眾警覺性越來越高增加我們全民的防詐免疫力"},{"start":3864.861,"end":3872.485,"text":"據了解金管會和法務部已達成共識為加強監督虛擬資產業者在訂定專法前將先修改《洗錢防制法》虛擬資產業改採登記制未經登記就經營業的將會有刑罰"},{"start":3890.115,"end":3892.577,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主席"},{"start":3910.495,"end":3925.908,"text":"慢慢的大家都肯認這個是一個未來必須要取得所謂的執照的這樣一個行業特別是我們很多的參考國際上很多國家都已經開始在做最近幾年這也是為什麼我們這次透過洗房辦法裡面採登記制來做這樣一個納管"},{"start":3928.049,"end":3949.865,"text":"那個主委啊因為3月20號比特幣出現暴跌走勢今晚會當時還提出兩大的呼籲指出虛擬資產高度投機性且無內在的價值那境外平台未受國內主管機關的監理那我這個請民眾審慎來評估虛擬資產交易的風險 主委前主委黃天牧啊"},{"start":3957.611,"end":3975.502,"text":"在任的時候看得出金管會對虛擬資產的態度是保守而且不積極那我請問主委因為你剛上任對於虛擬資產業未來法制化之後金管會有沒有成為虛擬資產業"},{"start":3978.851,"end":4005.525,"text":"特許事業的主管機關呢?是,謝謝委員其實金管會已經被行政院指定為我們是對虛擬資產具有投資及交易工具的虛擬資產的那個主管機關主管機關所以說以後你們就是主管機關就是有些因為虛擬資產的範圍非常非常大還有就是它相關的所謂的類似的東西非常的多所以我們這已經先就重要的部分先做納管金管會、責務龐大也是我們現在的主政"},{"start":4005.765,"end":4011.381,"text":"那你認為軍管會對這個行業的監督管理態度應該是開放還是保守呢?"},{"start":4012.293,"end":4038.129,"text":"報告委員這其實上這兩個面向就像全世界各國大概都是先從洗錢防制來做管理但是當這個產業已經開始成型而且具有國際上面的這樣一個競爭的情況的時候其實台灣也要注意這樣的情況就是其實台灣過去有很好的科技實力假設這是一個未來很重要市場我們也要持續的關注所以未來專法的面向當然是以安全保護消費者"},{"start":4039.13,"end":4041.434,"text":"主委,因為楊金榮總裁表示目前台灣央行對CBDC"},{"start":4050.758,"end":4074.714,"text":"還在研究的階段可能需要比較長的時間最少要3年以上他強調科技越進步你就要越小心那主委楊總裁強調比特幣等基本上屬性是虛擬資產而非貨幣央行本於職責對於投資人要提出警示那虛擬資產有漲有跌"},{"start":4078.939,"end":4079.965,"text":"這個應該留意當中的風險那請問主委"},{"start":4083.787,"end":4110.596,"text":"國內數位貨幣有沒有金融中介的必要性其實這個謝謝委員其實我們現在來看我們除了這個虛擬幣以外另外還有一個穩定幣這是其實上它的屬性在各國不管在學理或實務上都有不同的見解不過現在慢慢的開始納管以後很多東西開始制度化開始逐漸成型我們也在觀察國際的趨勢來作為以後管理的需求"},{"start":4110.956,"end":4138.677,"text":"主委如果數位貨幣脫軌金融的中介那有哪些的優點與缺點整個國內的環境適合哪種的模式比較適當這是一個謝謝委員就是主要是其實虛擬資產本身來講它絕對有它一些獨特的優勢但它的缺點也非常的多我想這個還要靠我們未來的整個眼鏡以及全世界的發展趨勢來看"},{"start":4139.918,"end":4164.281,"text":"主委因為以目前的狀況來看大多數政府的策略方向都是繼續保持法定貨幣的流通同時發展數位貨幣的生態那央行目前定位數位貨幣的傾向金融中介機構在間接金融架構中扮演資金"},{"start":4166.301,"end":4185.567,"text":"虛扭的角色那透過金融中介機構的運作可有效的降低資訊不對稱所引起的逆向選擇與道德風險的問題解決資金流向的阻礙所以說在市場上大部分的資金"},{"start":4187.028,"end":4196.043,"text":"龍通都是透過金融中介的機構那我請問主委現行的貨幣銀行的所有措施你認為"},{"start":4198.274,"end":4220.377,"text":"能不能一體適用在數位貨幣上面呢報告委員我想這個貨幣當然主政是中央銀行我不太方便評論就我個人的看法其實數位貨幣跟真的貨幣還是有非常大的距離有差別是不是例如數位貨幣有無銀行利息的產生要不要規範銀行管理費用"},{"start":4221.378,"end":4246.644,"text":"未來數位貨幣會不會與國際間的數位貨幣同步接軌?制度如果不同,那你認為有沒有相互流通的可行性呢?我們看國際數位幣的發展,除了我們現在數位幣還有Define,它衍生出來的很多的金融服務非常的多元不過現在都還要透過市場的測試才知道它未來的發展性"},{"start":4247.94,"end":4263.667,"text":"我是希望說金管會在這方面應該要多多去了解重視因為你們站在金融的立場當然控管非常重要那尤其講實在話今天這個議題因為詐騙這個講實在話"},{"start":4269.05,"end":4286.529,"text":"臺灣讓人家成為是詐騙的王國而且那個一直在變這個很嚴重而且政府又拿不出更具體的辦法越騙越多人就受騙我們今晚會一定會努力要好好的去控管是沒問題謝謝謝謝林德夫委員質詢接著我們請吳秉樂委員質詢"},{"start":4298.362,"end":4301.046,"text":"主席麻煩請金孔慧、彭主委有請彭主委喂你好彭主委早早有一句話叫做網路無國界就是現在這個世代"},{"start":4311.127,"end":4336.681,"text":"你只要上網你哪裡都可以去所以剛剛我看到你們的報告裡面說台灣的個人B商如果他沒有經過核准再經營將來是犯罪這是要納管那台灣有一些交易所這個我了解問題是要買的人、要交易的人他不在台灣交易啊他上網在全世界交易這個你有辦法管嗎"},{"start":4338.703,"end":4362.01,"text":"這個確實是一個國際上面的納管所以我們在《洗錢防制》有一個就是如果你在境外在國內要營業你要在境外要在國內落地他沒有要在台灣營業啊譬如說他是一個歐洲的或是一個美國的一個虛擬貨幣的交易所是你台灣的這個電腦的使用者自己上網去那邊跟他買那這個你要怎麼管呢"},{"start":4363.496,"end":4384.239,"text":"是要罰那個消費者嗎?罰那個買的人嗎?還是你可以罰到美國?罰到歐洲這樣子的交易所?確實在國界這個限制上對於我們這種網路上面的交易確實是一個一大挑戰這個不只是台灣所面對的問題我想全世界都是一樣的那所以這一方面你要怎麼處理呢?"},{"start":4384.727,"end":4407.034,"text":"所以我們現在我們在策略上當然先從國內這部分我們一定要先納管那至於說國際上透過國際合作這部分我們可能再來處理那像比如說假設剛剛也有報告也有提到假設我們的金流流到海外去的話那我們應該怎麼跟國外的這些政府機關做一個合作這個確實是國際上應該要加強努力比如說我們希望透過未來國際組織一起來參與這個問題看怎麼解決"},{"start":4412.196,"end":4438.878,"text":"這個比特幣的這個詐欺或是洗錢的案例在全世界都非常的多而且金額非常的大那我以前也曾經跟之前的金管會主委談過這我的觀點比特幣的漲跌都是非常的巨額中間有兩次是政府機關的行為中國宣布它合法它就飆漲中國宣布它違法它就暴跌這樣經過兩次的沖洗"},{"start":4441.38,"end":4455.676,"text":"所以我一直講說這個東西喔遊戲規則的制定者不是台灣操縱者也不是台灣他原來最起碼最開始的時候為什麼會大量就被認為說是因為中國的高官要洗錢用的"},{"start":4456.758,"end":4476.266,"text":"所以這個比特幣才會有這麼大的交易量那你現在一個問題說因為網路無國界所以我如果上網路去買台灣的幣商要經營如果沒有合法將來依照法律你們現在修的法律它就是要違法這個我可以了解可是這能夠保護的也只有一小部分"},{"start":4477.182,"end":4501.311,"text":"我不一定要在跟台灣的幣商買我可以上網全世界哪裡去弄啊所以這個是如何讓國人正確的認識這裡面有非常巨大的風險這也是一個很重要的工作喔因為現在全世界的潮流政府也不得已指定你們金管會作為這個主管機關會讓人家誤會說這個東西要合法了這個東西合法之後"},{"start":4507.008,"end":4534.874,"text":"一個最大的問題是台灣的民族性賺錢沒有人會感謝政府如果集體賠錢大家就圍你你主管機關嘛因為我們政府管得不好害我們這麼多人集體被騙、被害錢大家就去你那邊陳抗你要了解我們台灣有這樣特殊的民族性是 謝謝所以我是覺得這裡面隱藏的風險非常的大好 那話說回來從另外一個角度來看"},{"start":4535.782,"end":4546.69,"text":"那既然要管理慢慢的慢慢的我現在不是講馬上很久的未來之後有沒有可能成立公家的交易所"},{"start":4549.465,"end":4568.952,"text":"這個我們在國際上還沒有看到但是我們很多其實我們交易所大部分都不是政府在做包括我們現在證券也大家都不是對啦那我的意思是說就算不是至少是交易所吧類似證券交易所期貨交易所有沒有可能有沒有可能往這個方向走呢"},{"start":4569.672,"end":4585.305,"text":"現在以現在發展其實還蠻原始的還是自發展但是我們像這種都是全世界都在發展過程當中但是主委你要知道全世界主要的交易所就算是證券啊什麼其他的交易所很多國家也都不是公家在做的是的那"},{"start":4586.397,"end":4613.959,"text":"台灣在我來看台灣的證券交易所、期貨交易所或是說這個OTC因為有政府強力的主管、監管而且它是一個特許行業所以我覺得它還蠻上軌道的啊是 這也是我們未來努力的方向我事實上現在想像10年後、20年後有沒有可能因為這裡面還可能涉及到稅率還可能涉及到如何的揭示、如何的公告讓這大家能夠了解風險"},{"start":4615.16,"end":4643.985,"text":"等等這個 如果你把它一個正規化之後其實正規化也有正規化很多的好處啊是的 像比如說像台灣的交易所櫃買就是很好成功的例子是透過櫃買或是交易所對於一些在那邊交易的上市櫃公司進行所謂的管理跟控管都是一個非常非常好的模式好 當然所以這個未來也有可能朝這方向思考就是既然如果將來要把它納管"},{"start":4645.08,"end":4656.646,"text":"那將來是不是設計一套制度當然我是指很多年後現在還開始在算是原始時代還在那邊摸索還在那邊搞但是"},{"start":4659.096,"end":4683.095,"text":"其實另外一方面虛擬資產的交易金管會之前也是一直採取正面的看法所以也要另外還有一個證券化的問題所以這個是將來我覺得如果朝這方面能夠制定完整的制度也不見得是不好啊是好那先請你回座我們請這個法務部徐次長跟警政署的這個黃副局長徐政策黃副局長"},{"start":4686.653,"end":4694.586,"text":"委員長早兩位我所知道因為我來自法界現在"},{"start":4695.802,"end":4724.152,"text":"警界也好、檢察界也好甚至法院也好都為了這個詐欺欺犯罪多到這個程度痛不堪甚至有很多人當然這個是不是這個因素這是一個猜測因為詐欺欺犯罪太多了辦不完就有的人辦到暗賭勞刑上次不是有檢察官發生輕生的事件嗎責任感太大然後案子辦不完士林地檢嘛還是士林地院、司法官那如果是這樣的話"},{"start":4725.572,"end":4730.116,"text":"到底有什麼方式可以降低這個詐欺的案件的這個量"},{"start":4732.063,"end":4760.855,"text":"報告委員之所以今天我們要動員所有的部會進來就是從源頭管制因為從源頭管制的話加強監管那很多的虛擬的人頭的才會減少那歹徒利用這些來擷取民眾的金錢那管道就會受到控制這是從源頭去那再來的話我們當然我們要我們司法單位要充分的合作案件數今年"},{"start":4761.815,"end":4780.453,"text":"的數量有比較減少嗎?還是增加更多?今年一到四月的案件量已經少了大概十幾...但是五月又上來了這個五月份的資料我還沒拿到市長還有副局長我覺得這裡面一個很大的問題是說現在網路上面這些廣告它的廣告它..."},{"start":4784.656,"end":4812.63,"text":"常常我舉個例子常常用名人誰越出名這個Meta上面就馬上就出現那個名人的這個股票投資群組等等這些的廣告那之前就一直有說可以跟這一些跨國的公司談條件談怎麼管理我跟你說韓國跟日本現在除了在國內提起訴訟之外還跑到美國去告Meta尤其是日本的這個"},{"start":4814.815,"end":4817.297,"text":"報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告"},{"start":4842.572,"end":4857.657,"text":"對啦 但是這些跨國的大公司他也要鳥你嘛坦白講是這樣子啦台灣的法律他大到大到沒辦法形容你知道嗎落地國的法律他也不見得要遵守啊那當然之前一直跟他溝通"},{"start":4858.963,"end":4887.252,"text":"有些效力如果真正要防止這個東西要拿出肩膀出來不能夠是因為他是國際的這個巨大的這個公司然後你們就對他不能夠提出什麼比較強硬的做法嗎我跟委員報告我想這個當然主責不是我們法務部是書發部今天我看到新聞出來了就是這些相關的業者已經提出所謂的日出條款"},{"start":4888.14,"end":4912.801,"text":"他們已經有感受到如果這個法律過的話其實對他們來講在某些程度裡面是有一些抑制的作用我希望大家一起努力不是只有我們在查緝而已各方面都要努力要從根源斷不然案件越來越多是壓垮整個司法體系司法體系的工作人員也是很辛苦"},{"start":4913.742,"end":4937.546,"text":"每天查的案子都是類似的而且這個都有一風窩風的現象民國八十年我剛剛當法官的時候那時候刑事案件最多是西安美搭面跟千篤六合彩、大加勒所以都一死一死一死現在最多的應該就是詐欺案件了是所以大家努力吧是好 謝謝謝謝吳秉樂委員的諮詢接著我們請賴石堡委員諮詢"},{"start":4957.096,"end":4960.139,"text":"今天我們談到虛擬貨幣的管理虛擬貨幣現在有兩萬兩千多種那你要管哪一些"},{"start":4982.805,"end":4989.903,"text":"貸儲你要不要管貸購你要不要管冷錢包你要不要管也不能講一下你要管就放我用那些"},{"start":4990.814,"end":5013.481,"text":"核保委員就是我們現在剛剛在報告裡面我們有分階段來納管我們現在已經針對所謂我們所謂管制的範圍其實上有定他一定的範圍比如說他們在做之間的交換必別之間的轉換或是代為傳送之類這我們有明定現在的範圍當然沒有錯陳主委員講的這裡面這個所謂虛擬資產是一個還在演進中的概念"},{"start":5017.882,"end":5034.617,"text":"還有包括他很多很多技術上比如說任何人他都可以發一個幣但是他也沒有價值這要市場來認定這也是我們常常看到很多詐騙集團他可以用來一個很重要的點所以這是我們未來的挑戰所以原則上以後什麼都管就對了是不是來我現在告訴你"},{"start":5036.578,"end":5059.464,"text":"112年就去年的時候臺灣高鐵法院舉報過座談他說金管會要管的是詐欺取財罪或者詐欺得利罪請問你是哪一個現在金管會所主管的範圍現在是按照我們現在《洗房法》裡面的法尊聲明這個是哪一個啊還是兩個都管"},{"start":5061.897,"end":5083.746,"text":"詐欺取財、或者就是詐欺把錢放進來、或者詐欺得利、詐欺之後去賺錢詐欺的部分應該是我們由那個民刑法來處理但我們現在金管會主政就是洗錢目前是以洗錢防制作為我們的那就比較偏詐欺得利啊是不是洗錢就洗錢違反洗錢"},{"start":5086.734,"end":5088.255,"text":"你現在第6月第7月講到階段一包括個人的避傷"},{"start":5112.407,"end":5116.496,"text":"要先向金管會完全洗錢防制、法尊、財政和從業那這個很明顯就是"},{"start":5127.697,"end":5147.609,"text":"他要取得這個洗錢的登記他必須要完備洗錢防制法上的要求好 但是你在第11頁有講到沒有一規定從事事業的VASP要可以行事責任那個人的幣商包、個人的錢包交易轉入黑市暗網交易你怎麼查"},{"start":5149.262,"end":5158.57,"text":"現在我們現在的話那個法律現在正在送在大院審議中是《洗錢防制法》的修正我們現在是根據《洗錢防制法》裡面我們現在是可以罰款"},{"start":5159.895,"end":5187.017,"text":"的未來才會可以行責我們為了要加重這樣的一個處罰所以也希望說未來大院能夠支持這樣一個修正你案子送進來了嗎?應該已經送進來了對什麼時候送進來?這個我們是由5月初已經進到立法院叫什麼名字?《洗錢防制法》的修正修正草案?對經過過一段?沒有,《洗錢防制法》是法務部的主政對啊,法務部的啊好,那個市長要不要講一下?"},{"start":5191.667,"end":5219.221,"text":"包委員,今年的5月9日已經送到大院而且已經出審剩下兩個條文兩個條文,就是第6條第5條好,我再請教金國外的彭主委那個Online Game的遊戲幣要不要報備現在我們遊戲幣現在很…很…那個朋友告訴我玩遊戲幣專門移動房子欸"},{"start":5223.867,"end":5240.655,"text":"這個容我去了解不過我們現在的話我們主要是管那個虛擬幣那遊戲幣我們現在是就我的理解現在是沒有在我們現在現行我現在告訴你我要出門以前還有人告訴我他就玩遊戲幣不到半年的時間賺了一棟房子這麼厲害去看也來啊這麼厲害好啦我們來看"},{"start":5251.786,"end":5276.883,"text":"你在哪裡?在哪裡?星光集團啊我沒有替他講話的意思喔在兩年前捷四堡已經被處罰了300萬保險局的局長在這裡不同的組委現在換一個組委又開始又來了兩年又保他他現在一一交保了組委、檢察官、大使、搜索"},{"start":5278.749,"end":5308.09,"text":"那個政論節目昨天 噢 批一趴拉兩趴一兩趴都討論這個事情 他們就定調了說這個是政治辦案 那個法務部次長要不要解釋一下徐市長 政治力介入又復原到了 柯建民一直講說只要找六個 其餘來歸 鎖定民眾黨啊這裡面來講 吳東進就是吳世穎的爸爸鎖定他 那麼快 有沒有這個意思啊"},{"start":5308.715,"end":5319.781,"text":"保護委員我們檢察官辦案絕對是秉公處理不會有任何的政治利益介入我想這個是誤會那個案的話我不方不方便昨天柯文傑沒有一直講這個題題嗎一直這樣講檢察官依法辦理絕對是依法辦理這麼厲害每天都說要告訴我要起訴誰就起訴誰每天都政治指導還沒有"},{"start":5334.824,"end":5359.369,"text":"報告委員不會我知道你一定說不會這個彭主委你要不要解釋一下這個兩年前才罰了300萬怎麼現在開始又處理他呢報告委員局長講一下局長到底是兩人來發生什麼變化除了報告委員跑出來以後我不知道是什麼變化"},{"start":5361.777,"end":5371.946,"text":"這應該是兩年前就已經...處罰了啊!對阿!準備要三百萬了!同意議題是阿!處罰不夠!因為刑事的部分是檢察官在辦的,我們並沒有介入所以兩年前脫落現在才起訴,所以現在才辦"},{"start":5384.761,"end":5384.941,"text":"主委"},{"start":5415.681,"end":5433.188,"text":"你到現在為止還沒有看到你淪陷的跡象了經濟部長郭志輝就已經淪陷了一開始講和二和三要演繹我要吃到跟民進黨立委吃的飯總統他吃了一頓飯回來馬上改口都不要了我希望你"},{"start":5434.724,"end":5463.321,"text":"要扛起肩膀好 你是主委喔要令人尊敬喔你不要忽異政治啊你不要這樣聲音啊你們的諸位檢察官請問請問諸位檢察官要不要聽法務部的指揮要不要請問 市長 市長許市長要不要法務委員 沒有沒有對不要跟你報告不用不用不要跟你報告是"},{"start":5464.341,"end":5489.908,"text":"好那個法務部的長官請回答最後一個我再請教一下你保險修改行政命令了原來7月要生效就是我買一個比如說我住院做治療花了30萬但是我買了三個保單一個10萬一個20萬一個30萬再過去我都可以申請喔用副本就可以申請我就可以拿60萬回來阿你們體恤"},{"start":5493.209,"end":5495.33,"text":"其實報告委員 可能委員你有點誤會"},{"start":5515.504,"end":5535.124,"text":"主要是因為其實保險有個非常基本的原則叫損害填補原則因為我們過去發覺到有很多人他可能因為買了多張副本理賠而且也引發了上次有個案件檢察官也直接的指責說為什麼我們的商品可以一個人他可以取得這麼高的理賠"},{"start":5535.985,"end":5550.337,"text":"那我們為了落實保險業的損害填補原則所以我們過去呢第一階段我們曾經規定說最多只能買三張還是有這樣的問題所以我們經過討論以後呢我們就採損害填補原則希望未來都以正本理賠回歸正軌"},{"start":5551.718,"end":5568.728,"text":"當然我們也聽到業者的意見認為說這個東西可能需要更多的調適所以保險局在面對業者討論的時候也迅速的做出回應說我們願意給你們一個時間來做個調整我想這部分我們一定會讓市場讓消費者安心主委你這說的到底還是體貼產險商啊"},{"start":5574.871,"end":5589.805,"text":"我怕他們損失太多這個生病的他難道願意生病嗎我故意去生一個病賺這個錢搞得人家這樣但是我去買保單我就買了啊我保費交了他可能生病一年才生一次給他賺一輸而已給他贏一輸你也給他賺"},{"start":5591.907,"end":5618.045,"text":"有時候拿回來還要補身體還要幹什麼的你們這樣子不可以給他就報告委員其實我們商品有很多類型剛剛規範就是只有十之十富像比如我們商品還有很多定額型的商品像比如我們最常見的防癌保險你可能一離來他也不管醫療費用他就直接給付一個金額也可以滿足很多消費者的需求其實商品是多元只是十之十富發生了一些好 最後就用時間到頭了謝謝委員其實問題沒有沒有問題最後一句話"},{"start":5621.787,"end":5647.061,"text":"那過去買的咧我們不追溯我們都是新的商品才會開始所以過去買的我買3張我花30萬我可以領60萬照理但是以後就沒有了以後我們新的商品裡面我們希望他都以正本理賠如果你選10支10副都以正本但是如果你有其他需求可以選定額幾副的商品應該也沒有問題謝謝好 謝謝謝謝賴司保委員的質詢接著我們請賴會委員委員質詢"},{"start":5659.573,"end":5669.613,"text":"謝謝主席有請金管會主委還有銀行局莊局長有請彭主委、莊局長委員好是"},{"start":5671.209,"end":5690.473,"text":"主委早安主委我想今天針對的就是我們的虛擬資產這個議題我來跟你做一個討論我想虛擬資產的一個洗錢的一個涉案其實在國內我們現在看得到的就是說在檯面上就是在這個"},{"start":5692.914,"end":5714.403,"text":"9月份的時候就是碧安協助我們處理一個案子那這個是2億那顯然就是說這個是目前我們看得到的最大的一筆數字那虛擬資產成為詐騙集團熱門的一個洗錢的工具其實已經是好幾年了那這好幾年顯然大家都沒有比較好的一個辦法"},{"start":5715.763,"end":5735.744,"text":"那甚至就是說我們政情局那個副局長在那個九月份的時候他有講到他就是說不是不是在九月份講到他去年發布了一個指導的原則他希望業者在這個基礎上要自立那逐步發展其他的一個比較政策面的"},{"start":5737.586,"end":5745.854,"text":"委外研究報告在今年9月會完成期末報告本席看到在虛擬貨幣有22000多種的虛擬貨幣裡有沒有比較好的管理方式?"},{"start":5757.85,"end":5785.93,"text":"現在我們就是因為這個是全世界都面臨到這樣的一個挑戰比如說像我們看我們鄰近像比如說香港、新加坡他們是去年才開了納管大家的做法都差不多都是先從洗錢防制開始所以我們覺得說現在我們也是按部就班的來做因為畢竟這是一個在演化中的產業我們也希望說先針對比如說現在一些主流的幣來進行管理一個演化中的一個產業你在明年六月你要把它送到立法院來"},{"start":5787.091,"end":5814.405,"text":"我們希望能夠提草案對是在這裡我想就是跟你探討了就是說我們要給虛擬資產一個合法的地位嗎這個是本席今天要跟你探討的在我們那個有形的一個資產裡頭其實我們在進行黃幣的討論的時候我們已經面臨到了很大的一個困境就是說我們現有的銀行現有的一個資產其實我們在黃幣打炸的時候"},{"start":5815.806,"end":5827.481,"text":"這個我們都已經是很多的一個弊端都呈現出來我們無法可管那相對的數位時代來臨了我們這些年長的長輩反而成為這個數位化的一個弱勢"},{"start":5830.705,"end":5849.619,"text":"這個看起來是說我用一個案例就是說這個是在3月9號他所做的一個報導一個70多歲的老太太他3月初才跟保險公司開了一個網路的一個服務結果他7張保單在一個夜內都被解約領走了有的被拿去值戒了"},{"start":5850.543,"end":5869.766,"text":"那有的就是做其他的用途那合計的金額上千萬結果後來這個老太太發現不對了她跑到保險公司去她去跟她這個要回保單的恢復原狀當然她是遭到詐騙集團的一個冒名的一個申辦可是保險公司拒絕她了"},{"start":5871.268,"end":5884.237,"text":"這個我們有法可管嗎?無法可管所以我們很遺憾發生這個案子啦不過就是這個假設是詐騙集團我們現在一定會看看保險公司有沒有責任那再來就是說如果他是一個詐騙人"},{"start":5901.709,"end":5919.505,"text":"現在有形的一個金融產業都已經是環不勝環了那現在怎麼辦呢那我們只看到說金管會定期會在公告詐騙手法放在你的官網上讓民眾來參閱那警政署也會在社區做很多環詐的一個宣傳"},{"start":5920.546,"end":5943.543,"text":"你看喔,我們已經花了那麼多的一個力氣北京這幾天回到地方去跑那個端午節的一個活動我常常就看到了警政署就是在每一個我們的派出所所長他們都到現場去做詐騙的一個宣傳所以我們都告訴那一些長輩告訴那些現有社區的這一些人出來了我們就告訴他說"},{"start":5944.804,"end":5969.815,"text":"你們要怎麼樣怎麼樣只要有跟錢的相關的你們就是要謹慎好那甚至就是在銀行裡頭的零貴都被騙了那更何況是數位呢那前警政署長他曾經講在2023年他的一個記者會上他提到了光是2022年他的報案量就有三萬多件可是僅有攔截八千多件"},{"start":5970.635,"end":5985.304,"text":"你看這個不符合比例啊不符合比例啊所以我還是再一次請問主委我們要給虛擬貨幣這一個專法給它一個合法的地位嗎?你個人的看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":5988.244,"end":6013.545,"text":"謝謝委員我充分理解委員剛剛提的顧慮我們現在就是沒有專法的情況之下他有這麼多的狀況那當然比如說我們當我們給予一個執照我們主管機關就要非常非常的謹慎因為也代表我們的承擔我們必須要把這些把它導正化所以這是當然是有個兩難但是我覺得我們整體評估而言政府責無旁貸"},{"start":6014.666,"end":6038.953,"text":"要擔起這些管理的責任但是對於不法的我們要嚴重於打擊那你有辦法管嗎?你的人力有辦法管嗎?你看銀行人員不正當的挪用這個款項的案件都頻傳了那你主詐的同時你怎麼避免內部人的不法行為那你可以抓他這個你還可以抓他這個你還管得到可是在悉尼貨幣合法之後貨幣商有辦法跟營養合法合規嗎?"},{"start":6041.814,"end":6064.884,"text":"這個就是我們未來努力的目標剛剛委員跟大家報告就是說我們希望法制逐漸完備比如說我們先採《洗錢防制法》登記制登記制某種程度你要滿足我們現在全國一致的洗房標準我們要合法合規合法合規我來追幾個案子那個銀行局局長在這一個就是天空塔在"},{"start":6066.044,"end":6088.974,"text":"天空塔的弊案持續在發酵的時候那我在這裡請教你我們有繼續追蹤就是說這一個天空塔這一個弊案就是說蔡永毅他在放貸的過程裡頭他有沒有介入他有沒有在核貸的時候有沒有特別的寬鬆有沒有就是說去脅迫我們的同仁來配合呢"},{"start":6090.165,"end":6115.821,"text":"你們有查到這樣子嗎報告委員這個案子的話其實就是報導已經開始揭露的時候其實我沒有請因為兆豐銀行是主辦行所以其實我沒有請兆豐銀行提出報告那依照兆豐銀行的報告來看的話他目前一切都還是在正常的狀況之下那至於他們"},{"start":6117.482,"end":6137.008,"text":"內部放貸的過程當中他目前也認為說查核對結果是沒有問題是沒有,好,這個局長你回答我是沒有,你看可能是他認為你們查不出來他還可以再掛一個就是說前兆豐總經理蔡永毅他還可以掛一個資深合夥人啊"},{"start":6137.901,"end":6167.101,"text":"關於一個就是這一個蔡永毅他在掏空的嫌疑人邱冠興就是他的盛景公司他還可以掛一個資深的合理人顯然就是他認為你們抓不到嘛那抓不到為什麼會有這麼大的一個弊案啊那相對的好局長我再請問你就是對於租賃公司這一個無牌的高利貸的這個租賃公司那銀行能不能逐筆去檢查啦你有追嗎這個案子你有追嗎"},{"start":6168.962,"end":6190.655,"text":"請說明報告委員分成兩個部分啦就剛剛委員關心的那個部分基本上還是銀行的放貸啦所以不是主任公司那如果回到主任公司的話那個是不是有你是一直在強調啊就是說他拿著合法的銀行的錢然後去做"},{"start":6191.756,"end":6205.784,"text":"超高利的高利貸超過22倍那你有沒有足比去檢查顯然到這個時候我已經問了好幾次了你們也沒有辦法正向的在回答我好 局長你的人夠不夠呢"},{"start":6207.321,"end":6224.535,"text":"你的銀行的內控的一個機制裡頭又要灌金融詐騙又要灌這個融資租賃又要灌洗錢防制又要灌貸錢貸後那到底你的錢那個你的人夠不夠你的人到底夠不夠"},{"start":6225.697,"end":6250.538,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員關心確實是後來必須要規範或者是要管理的範圍確實擴大不過這個部分的話其實行政院也在關心這件事情所以在元額增加上面也請我們再考慮增加元額要增加多少這個我想在這裡跟金管會主委做一個這個探討啦美國年準會它"},{"start":6251.278,"end":6270.841,"text":"有2.4萬人他處理3.3億人的人跟事跟物他的貨幣他的貸款可是相對的我們央行裡頭有866個人銀行局才212個人那如果照這個數字來算的話我想這個銀行局也應該要有1600個人"},{"start":6272.282,"end":6281.425,"text":"所以銀行局的人太少了嘛那你太少了你還要他去管這麼多的事情那當然是成效一定不好的啊那你怎麼改進呢"},{"start":6282.305,"end":6310.551,"text":"這個我們當然謝謝委員的關心這個確實是應該是大部分的公務機關面臨到的問題特別是金管會其實蠻嚴重因為社會對金管會有很多肯定也期待希望我們把很多新興的行業納管當然是期待啊因為我們的錢會被騙啊那你的人不夠啊你怎麼去管控他啊你獅子銀行的問題沒有辦法解決的時候你還要再處理你的虛擬資產你有那麼大的一個能量嗎"},{"start":6312.141,"end":6332.156,"text":"現在確實我們現在人力上是非常吃緊不過即便在這樣的情況之下我們要繼續被騙沒有沒有我們還是會持續的努力但是我們也希望說未來能夠爭取我跟你講他在未來虛擬貨幣這一個專法那個通過的時候他們會做了很多很多的一個宣傳欸這是政府認定的喔這是國家認定的喔你們的錢我們這裡賭注沒問題喔"},{"start":6335.389,"end":6346.793,"text":"對 這個市場行為的監控我們一定會加強我們就要努力了市長 主委先補上銀行局的人員吧這個是快速你可以做的好 謝謝 謝謝我們也來努力謝謝 謝謝委員關心謝謝賴會員委員質詢接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":6359.289,"end":6364.693,"text":"主委要不要喝一口水?那我就繼續請主委,謝謝召委主委好,主委辛苦了"},{"start":6374.08,"end":6392.329,"text":"剛上任一個月因為我今天問題比較多我就直接進入我的正題主委我要先問一下房價高漲的問題您就直接看我的圖表很快就可以了解無論是從我們四大房價的指數從政大永慶、信義、清華安富包括內政部的住格房價"},{"start":6393.489,"end":6417.769,"text":"我們都可以看到這個房價從這四大家分析的房價指數都可以看到房價又創了歷史的新高那目前我們央行分析房價高漲主要有幾個原因是臺灣出口的這個數字明顯回升那第二個就是股市兩萬多點經濟到最好的時刻所以大家都"},{"start":6418.93,"end":6441,"text":"口袋裏面錢還不少造成房價的新高第三個原因是財政部的新清安政策催出自住的需求那前兩個是經濟好、景氣好大家口袋有錢房價上升是合理的那第三個就是新清安的政策那媒體有針對於新清安房貸"},{"start":6441.9,"end":6457.399,"text":"有四個後遺症我要跟主委分享就是說因為它的四項政策內容主委你應該熟悉嘛新清安政策我如果20歲我買房我到我用新清安政策的話我到60歲才需要緩緩"},{"start":6458.38,"end":6459.581,"text":"那我也關注到"},{"start":6480.002,"end":6504.274,"text":"新清安政策第一季從20到35歲房貸族的年增率增加了48件我從去年2023年第4季因為新清安政策是從去年開始第4季總共有5.4萬件房貸那在新清安政策裡面就佔了1.8萬件佔了三分之一那今年的第一季總共有5.8萬件那總共"},{"start":6508.116,"end":6531.473,"text":"總共房貸的年增率增加39%所以從這些數據上可以看到新青安的助攻之下就是說年輕人買房的確非常踴躍就從我們的數據上可以顯示主委你同意我剛才講的這四大後遺症是新青安政策造成的嗎"},{"start":6533.294,"end":6556.552,"text":"這個我覺得今晚會所主政的範圍可能也不在這裡不過我覺得很多媒體或是在外部的在討論的問題不過確實大家對高房價是有很大的感覺那剛剛講新清安也是政府照顧年輕人的一個做法是我同意對因為很多人是爸爸媽媽幫忙買是的對我同意所以"},{"start":6559.537,"end":6580.131,"text":"但是主委我還是要問因為明天就是6月13號央行明天就要開理監事會那我也看到媒體報導就是說預期會有第六波的打防那跨部會無論是選擇性央行會用選擇性的信用的管制也好或者是我看到媒體所下的標"},{"start":6581.212,"end":6599.871,"text":"會用跨部會的來打防特別是內政部也提到說如果有第6波升息的話那後面可能就不再做利率的補貼所以這個整個我從媒體上看到的還有跨部會後續的動作我們現在是又要進行下一波的打防了嗎"},{"start":6602.049,"end":6617.473,"text":"這個有關這個房價政策不是金管會的主政金管會在意的是我們現在這些銀行們他們在放貸這些不動產相關事業的風險有沒有過高那我們是在根據銀行法72之2條裡面的規範來進行管理"},{"start":6619.591,"end":6640.485,"text":"主委我同意你的說法就是說股市好經濟好房價可能自然就高當然我覺得合理的房價當然也很重要房價高但是我覺得合理的房價當然也很重要但是政府更應該注意的是我們整個房地產的狀況到底是不是它的體質是不是屬於一個健康的狀況"},{"start":6642.606,"end":6668.572,"text":"我們現在無論是房價高漲也讓住宅建築放款預比達到14兆那我昨天就看到我們無論是本國的住宅貸款建築貸款其實都在0.06%到0.03%那其實如果按照我們整體的預放比的話只有0.17%其實好像也不是算太高所以我最近看到你們新聞稿也一直在提到說我們現在"},{"start":6670.852,"end":6691.901,"text":"購屋的貸款餘額已經突破10兆元的大關我們目前無論是建築、購屋跟房屋的修繕餘額在我們整體銀行的整體的放款達到37.21%所以我想請問一下部長、主委我們整體銀行局在開記者會提到35%"},{"start":6696.583,"end":6697.904,"text":"三十五%是否比較合理的數字?預放款整體的比例?"},{"start":6712.051,"end":6740.309,"text":"你解答就好了是不是要用35%它是不是37.21%是不是太高報告委員這個37.21%我覺得可能是統計的基礎上的差異那你們是用35來做基準是不是我們目前查到就是那什麼是一個合理的數字因為35是目前的數字可是我們今天來看的話最近這一年其實是112年12月底也是去年年底的時候"},{"start":6740.689,"end":6767.165,"text":"他的比率是高於35點多其實這個我們只是在顯示說集中度的問題那我必須要跟為什麼是35做基準點為什麼不是36為什麼不是33為什麼不是30這個不是基準點這個基本上只是在顯示說他的比率是這樣那我剛剛說的超過35也是去年12月底的數字所以你們是希望他接近35"},{"start":6769.008,"end":6789.173,"text":"我想局長意思就是說他看過去一整年大概都維持在35%左右雖然有略高一點比如最高點不過35.38%最近都是一直都維持在35%他只是描述現況好主委那所以行政院並沒有對於第六波打防整體跨部會是一個共識對不對"},{"start":6790.902,"end":6798.643,"text":"我們現在就是我們還是雖然你不主導但是你也是其中的角色之一我們現在還是做我們金管會該做的事現在"},{"start":6799.993,"end":6807.159,"text":"主委我不為難您主委因為我今天時間不多我還是要問一下現在最後兩分鐘我還是要問一下虛擬平台我們現在詐騙的問題詐騙的議題其實剛剛前面賴委員也有問到其實它最大的問題就是無內在的價值波動很高還有平台有它的風險在"},{"start":6822.011,"end":6840.377,"text":"無論是剛才我們有提到就是說VASP的業者我們現在要讓他成立一個平台但是包括ACE的交易在110年就有一個個案他的詐騙金額高達8億上週開庭的時候再壓主席人還非常囂張的比業那個動作"},{"start":6843.098,"end":6860.921,"text":"就是說主委我們覺得詐騙的問題我們要控管平台但是他也要成立一個工會我們未來你看他都已經這麼囂張已經在押開庭還這麼囂張未來我們的角色怎麼樣去做監管就是說管控或管理"},{"start":6861.742,"end":6876.233,"text":"謝謝委員這確實是我們很大的挑戰不過他個人行為我們不以置評但是對於未來個人弊傷剛剛不管是我們的報告還有法務部的報告都有特別講我們就是為了針對這件事情社會的期待我們在《洗錢防制法》裡面也參考國際的趨勢"},{"start":6877.614,"end":6902.827,"text":"那未來平台成立之後我們有什麼樣更好的管理方式嗎現在的話我們馬上假設經過大院通過我們《洗錢防制法》的話我們就可以對這些個人弊傷可以刑責這樣根據我們的預估應該會產生很大的嚇阻作用會回歸到一些正軌去就是說你必須要是來做洗房登記那洗房登記的標準就必須要完成我們滿足我們《洗錢防制法》的要求"},{"start":6903.487,"end":6917.918,"text":"那這樣我們在到處看得到的這些所謂的個人幣商應該就會受到一些的控制以上好 各位那個剛才賴會員委員也提到說用人的部分因為我有看到你們在爭財有關於我們的虛擬的資產兼領元我們首度計算6.8萬元以上的月薪我們也在找人"},{"start":6927.545,"end":6953.756,"text":"這些人找到了沒?因為我們要設立專法這些人,6.8萬人算高嗎?找這樣的專業,算高嗎?謝謝委員,我們很努力很努力地找我們要,第一階段要三個找到兩個找到兩個,三個夠不夠?當然不夠當然不夠,還要再繼續找因為我們有分階段地給我們人力但是今年的三個我們大概就是,再努力再找詐騙虛擬平台的管理是"},{"start":6956.917,"end":6957.077,"text":"《新光人壽》"},{"start":6972.9,"end":7000.513,"text":"賴氏寶委員問的其他的問題就是說對於不管是新售它是家族的問題還是金金未來併購的問題合併的問題我還是要請教就是說5月16跟5月24我們分別收到三商售跟新售提交的整體的體質改善計畫那現在已經到6月中了那我們現在對於金管會對於這兩家的改善計畫評估好不好能不能接受還是持續的改善呢對他最近送進來兩份報告滿不滿意"},{"start":7002.369,"end":7010.535,"text":"呃...我們...行手跟三...可不可以因為現在是保安局正在審查中我們可以請保安局局長跟您回覆,謝謝好,檢...檢...檢...檢...檢...局長請檢答"},{"start":7013.683,"end":7028.812,"text":"法務委員他們的報告我們目前審查之後有跟公司約時間再做一些溝通那溝通完畢有沒有達到及格還是說還是不及格成績還是那個方向到底是什麼他們有提出一些具體的政治計畫那我們有在評估說到底他的可行性還有他的時程請他們再更具體一點如果沒問題的話我們就會核定給他"},{"start":7041.639,"end":7053.684,"text":"那我這樣聽起來好像是你目前看來是滿意的再補充一些資料就可以了有一些方向上他們確實有提出來但是具體時程是不是能夠達到一定的標準這個部分我們還在溝通你還需要多少時間我們才會知道結果因為我們已經有跟他們約時間談了啦所以應該我上次就沒關係你跟他說當時我才可以再問一次"},{"start":7067.371,"end":7091.349,"text":"應該這個月就應該要完成溝通六月底就要完成溝通好因為這兩天新秀的新聞星光相關的新聞非常多我在最後30秒他現在新秀已經在星光金控已經在做信心增資包括公司債的部分這兩天的新聞在市場上會不會受到衝擊然後我們如果受到衝擊我們金管會的立場跟做法到底是什麼"},{"start":7091.909,"end":7109.616,"text":"就以法律面來看這兩個是獨立的事件但是我覺得可能有些人你覺得會不會受到市場會不會受到衝擊我覺得心裡面會受到事件影響不過我們評估過在法律上兩個是獨立的事件對不起你剛剛說的是法律面怎麼樣是獨立的事件"},{"start":7110.512,"end":7127.47,"text":"是圖利的事件是兩個獨立的事件是兩個獨立的事件所以你覺得短期會受到衝擊不會有影響這個是我們講心裡面的部分我們沒辦法預期但是我剛才講說就法律面我們一個是他的增資計畫一個是大股東的行為這兩個是分開的好的好的好謝謝主委的回應謝謝委員謝謝委員謝謝李恩秀維的諮詢"},{"start":7145.857,"end":7147.578,"text":"現在請郭國文召委謝謝主席有請彭金龍主委請主委"},{"start":7159.477,"end":7182.332,"text":"委員好 主委好 主委剛剛我聽您回答李燕秀委員的這個答覆有關於這個新光金前董事長吳東進的部分今天早上最新的消息他是以議員交保本席不是要問你案情我向你對個案不評論我尊重但是事件總有前因後果因為之前金管會有處罰過"},{"start":7184.474,"end":7202.206,"text":"這次也是金管會駐會檢察官移送本席就要請教這件事情當中我想請問一下到底爆發這件事情有人就說這肯定是內部人所提供的資料"},{"start":7203.493,"end":7225.953,"text":"一來可能會加速新興合併的作用二來也有可能達到延緩增資的效果雖然剛剛你講說不同的法律面本席同意但是事件就是有前因後果就會有連帶的影響關係就這兩個可能性主委您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":7227.606,"end":7245.171,"text":"這個案子我先就第一個問題先回答委員就是這個案子的成因我想在過去我們在檢查的金融檢查是我們蠻例行性的活動檢查完畢以後呢我們就會根據這個檢查的意見比如說這裡面可能我們認為會涉犯到刑責的部分"},{"start":7246.271,"end":7266.044,"text":"判決行政機關的主政他們就認為有具體的話我們就移給他們我們就不會再當然他們會有他們剪掉的一定的時間至於說至於什麼時候發動這完全跟金管會沒辦法過問我想這件事情那個時程上面我們是沒辦法去VASP的案子你手中還有幾個"},{"start":7268.269,"end":7287.965,"text":"這部分的話我們可以請那個檢察局局長檢察局局長張局長待會有時間拜一下那後果後果這兩件事情的後果剛剛就比如說我想這個過去在星光金也好台新金也好也針對這個兩家合併在媒體上也在他們一些的動作上也有做一些發布那大家當然會很多臆測我想我做一個"},{"start":7289.649,"end":7305.901,"text":"這個金管會主委我不會去臆測這個之間的關聯性但是我們都會密切注意到政治有沒有可能延緩本席直接問他這個政治計畫剛才那個局長已經說明過我們正在審核就是照常運行不會延緩不會受到此事件影響合併會不會加速"},{"start":7308.103,"end":7333.966,"text":"合併的話我們有一定的程序就是比如說我們合併的方法有很多種法律上很多的架構上他要一定的程序跟申請的過程所以一件按照行政程序處理不會受到影響?就我們就是依法行政的角度來講的話我們會考慮各種各種的因素但是我們不會因為某些案件而做一些法規上的調整那你稍作休息張子昊局長你手頭上還有多少案子?"},{"start":7336.018,"end":7337.6,"text":"主委另外同樣一個案件我就就教於您"},{"start":7354.487,"end":7379.1,"text":"今年1月30號這個移送是不是金管會移送?臺中商業到底是新北地檢署主動偵辦還是金管會移送這個案子?各位請檢察局長是不是這個案子?同樣的案件啊對我知道"},{"start":7381.359,"end":7396.707,"text":"我的印象是新北已經先有案子了我們把案子就移送給他了是由新北地檢署這個主動偵辦嘛那顯然不是金管會移送嘛那為什麼這兩個案子相差這麼多"},{"start":7398.024,"end":7407.732,"text":"主委你可能要了解清楚喔你剛上任喔我不會太過苛責啦但是顯有嬉笑啦你看看1月30號請訴之後2月1號你們就開罰"},{"start":7411.55,"end":7436.966,"text":"一千兩百萬掏空案總共是十億而這兩天你們前天才公布說今年前五月銀行、證券、保險、上市櫃公司總共開罰九千八百九十萬其中銀行最多銀行局最多銀行局當中金額最高的就是台中商銀很巧齁有沒有很巧一切都發生的很巧"},{"start":7438.73,"end":7461.813,"text":"這跟委員報告就是因為減掉機關要發動其實我們沒辦法控制我說這時間點有沒有很巧嘛主委這我沒辦法評論是不是巧合這一天起訴隔天你們就開罰沒有很巧嗎本席強烈建議你最好先瞭解清楚啦外面都說這可能是金管會在捕破網啦"},{"start":7464.83,"end":7488.523,"text":"我們再了解再跟委員報告我不希望再看到這麼巧的事件再發生啦主委但是我會持續關心第二件也是最近吵得沸沸揚揚這一個呢當初啊這個國泰金啊最大的股東萬寶開發嘛他拿到全家現在第二大股東說要搶全家三席董事喔"},{"start":7489.676,"end":7510.58,"text":"第一個我要請教主委這也沒有牽扯到違反產經分離的原則第二個當初萬寶開發取得全家的股權的時候有強調存財務投資如果要派董事的話只派董事的話會跟金管會溝通這兩點就叫主委"},{"start":7514.199,"end":7538.811,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們在過去常提到產經分離產經分離的概念我們如果落實在我們的法規上有沒有違反這件事情主要是我先跟委員說明一下產經分離是一個概念它不是一個法律的規定這個概念落實在我們兩個主要的法規上面一個就是說比如說金融機構的負責人不可以去兼任其他的非金融機構負責人"},{"start":7540.272,"end":7557.091,"text":"金融機構投資、像金融公司投資非金融相關事業的股權不可以超過一定的比例比如說5%像金融公司他用這樣的方式來達到這個至於說產金分離是一個大家的概念其實產金分離的概念並不是說強制那這個案子是幾%?"},{"start":7560.64,"end":7588.114,"text":"這個部分主要是萬寶是國泰金控的大股東他不是我們納管的所謂的金融機構這有延伸性啊主委但是他是一個大股東是沒錯所以說我們也有關心這件事情這個部分剛剛就至於說未來怎麼做的話我想說這個那局長這邊有關這個部分可不可以請局長再有沒有跟你溝通啊指派董事有沒有跟你溝通啊莊局長"},{"start":7589.758,"end":7617.569,"text":"報告委員 剛剛委員說的都對啦因為其實去年的時候我們就有找他來溝通對他確實告訴我們說因為他們沒有指派董事對現在又指派啦對 那所以我們當時是說如果您有任何要指派董事的時候要事先跟我們 讓我們知道因為當初就認為說他沒有指派董事其實就產經分離的精神而言其實是符合的啦"},{"start":7618.149,"end":7645.93,"text":"那現在可是如果說就產經分離你也知道全家有很多ATM嗎將來它如果砍敗在一起呢這請問一下有沒有分離啊對這應該就是就是算是利害關係人的利害關係人的交易可是利害關係人的交易在我們的不管是金控法或者是銀行法裡面其實只是要遵守那個利害關係人的程序而已局長我慎重提醒啦齁"},{"start":7646.51,"end":7650.072,"text":"主委我必須肯定你這次分四個階段而且你態度說要修法講得非常明確而且你也把本席長期以來說要說差異化管理都納入了這個本席都予以肯定"},{"start":7668.143,"end":7693.734,"text":"但是對有一個部分的廣度監管的部分我還是覺得你稍前保守而剛剛談到的這個他慮的部分本席不討論太多我談自律的部分明天就要成立了工會嘛 對不對對 是在成立工會當中我要問你的之前的王牌畢竟都有潛入一些弊案甚至畢竟的這個營運長還被收邀王牌也是如此類似這種這兩家都在25家裡面欸"},{"start":7694.975,"end":7707.36,"text":"你這兩家你要怎麼處理你有沒有暫停停止其營業內容你有沒有要求其撤銷其原來的這個法治聲明你有沒有做任何行政處分有沒有我看都沒有欸他們還會明天要籌組工會聽說畢竟還要當理事長欸"},{"start":7714.67,"end":7738.339,"text":"你不覺得這很奇怪嗎你本來法尊聲明就是要讓他們洗白給他們良民證講白點就這樣子這個剛剛那個涉犯那個事件是他們的公司的前負責人當然我們也很關注明天他們大概就是法人啊 同一法人啊工會成立以後我們也是我們開始納管的很重要的步驟"},{"start":7739.69,"end":7757.586,"text":"主委 我提醒你喔 工會的成員以後是要訂定次率規範欸是的次率規範很關鍵欸是沒錯 這次我們也非常非常關注如果一群啊 沒有洗白 有all day的業者的話 占的比例比較高你期待他弄出什麼樣的次率規範啊 主委"},{"start":7758.547,"end":7780.444,"text":"我請教你自律規範也要報主管機關來備查當然啊可是他文來文往他那個規範來規範去就是很小的面積的自我規範自律程度不足你不是管理上也很麻煩很困擾所以你要跟他講白我這一張良民證要發給你可以但是你如果犯了什麼錯良民證我就馬上可以收回來"},{"start":7781.344,"end":7795.815,"text":"這個我們會納入考慮就是說這部分未來自立規範的規定我們現在有初步的架構就是我們前面有頒布的指導原則這幾個原則其實就是國際上面納管VASP很重要的幾個原則我們希望充分的落實到這個自立規範裡面去"},{"start":7797.256,"end":7820.941,"text":"你寫了八點你寫了八點我本席都有在看這原則都要一一納入而且要嚴格執行第二個你現在都是以國內的業者為主啦國內的業者為主剛剛我就是要問你一個很大的一個問題廣度監管你最好他stand by的還有61家的部分能夠納管的部分這避免檢察官持續在抱怨的只有入刑的考量這裡頭有兩個一個關鍵點"},{"start":7822.441,"end":7848.982,"text":"第一個我們現在大部分國內的這個消費者所交易的對象都是還是國際的這個平台啊對不對你下一步有沒有要納入國際的平台的可能性這也在我們的這個法規範圍之內但是他一樣要滿足我們現在的要求對如果有國際國外的業者你也不排斥嘛對不對這我們在法規裡面就已經都有規範因為你如果納入國外的這個B商的話你至少形成一個規範嘛以後國外的B商來這邊的話有一個遊戲規則嘛"},{"start":7851.124,"end":7866.917,"text":"落地就歸本國的監理範圍裡面最後我問你一點主席站起來最後一點金管會有沒有可能對這個必殺有沒有可能採取類似像鏈系交易、炒股還有包括擔任投顧的這些行為做一定程度的行政調查有沒有可能"},{"start":7868.126,"end":7892.028,"text":"這個齁 我們在那個專法裡面我們再來針對業務行為在這個規範因為我們現在初步就是洗錢防制的概念來處理對 如果說將來在執法的規範上有多一個行政調查的話或許啊 這樣會比較妥適一點啦謝謝委員 我想說在未來專法的時候我們可以來考慮對 用行政權進行規範的話將來的整個司法權的這個承擔的程度也比較不會那麼過度勞累啦我有充分的轉達齁"},{"start":7893.249,"end":7906.678,"text":"這一個漸清改的意見也請政次能夠回去說明一下好謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝我們結束郭國文召委的執行好接下來我們請王洪威委員好謝謝主席我先請彭主委有請彭主委"},{"start":7929.712,"end":7952.908,"text":"那我想請問一下因為在國內的這個詐騙集團非常有名的IMB它曾經不止一次的參展就參加我們的FinTech所以呢造成很多的投資人物以為IMB是一家"},{"start":7954.51,"end":7972.087,"text":"合法而且具有前景、具有投資潛力的一家公司那個時候我們踢爆這件事情之後當時金管會有發布聲明那個聲明就把它推給這個Fintech的舉辦"},{"start":7974.269,"end":7986.136,"text":"是這個金融延續院還有什麼金融總會等等之類的說對這樣的人這樣的一個詐騙集團混入Fintech予以嚴厲譴責然後呢然後就沒有了然後就沒有了那所以我想請問一下因為主委現在剛剛接任"},{"start":7996.421,"end":8021.975,"text":"這個照片呢你可以看到那個時候是顧立雄他當時啊當主委的時候這個IMB這個就是整個的那個會場的狀況在後面開心跟我們的主委合照那當然這種照片因為他最喜歡跟這些大人物合照照了之後呢就會傳給他的這些投資人所以我想請問主委那麼我們這一次的FinTech能不能夠"},{"start":8024.305,"end":8051.846,"text":"確切地避免像這樣的詐騙集團在裡面魚沐混珠謝謝王委員我想我們當然不希望這類似的案件發生我們會在未來舉辦這個活動的時候記取教訓好好的來避免這件事情的發生所以因為你們是指導單位嘛那麼對於這些主辦單位是不是應該科以他們責任啊發生這種事情很難看吧"},{"start":8052.619,"end":8052.759,"text":"主委請回法務部次長"},{"start":8086.008,"end":8099.896,"text":"有關於反詐因為我們的檢調一直都是第一線的辦案人員當然法部也非常希望能夠在這些新型的犯罪形態洗錢的形態能夠得到一些經驗"},{"start":8102.097,"end":8123.146,"text":"所以你們從去年開始呢就辦了很多的研討會各地方檢察署都有辦各樣的講座那基本上呢主要也是針對虛擬貨幣因為大家都覺得這是新型態的但是啊這個法務部主要的合作的單位就是幣安那個次長知道嗎"},{"start":8130.714,"end":8144.483,"text":"那我時間要暫停啊他現在在問啊不是法務部找的是那個檢查機關找的是檢查機關找的那法務部都不知道啊那時間暫停一下今天什麼檢察司也有來嗎"},{"start":8146.427,"end":8164.53,"text":"來 副市長來因為如果市長沒關係啊 市長還是可以站上去啊你還是督導為什麼要今天要問這個問題好 今天可以看到這麼多的這個跟BIE一起合作的這些研討會好 我們來看下一頁"},{"start":8166.021,"end":8190.659,"text":"其實這個是在國際上他們比較了解虛擬貨幣他們覺得不能理解的是為什麼幣安在全球惡名昭彰在很多的國家裡面幣安從創辦人開始到他們在各地其實都被判刑因為他們就是涉及相關的洗錢他們是國際性的"},{"start":8194.127,"end":8219.303,"text":"那結果台灣呢?真是是不是幫他們洗白呢?如同剛才那個我們那個趙薇所說的一位權力工會幫一些可能有問題的我們的這些這個虛擬貨幣業者來洗白我們是在國際上洗白他們看到的時候都覺得眼珠都掉下來了好在美國那個創辦人趙長鵬"},{"start":8221.744,"end":8239.789,"text":"他事實上還被關而且被罰款的金額極為龐大在加拿大也是一樣被罰款600萬加幣在印度也是一樣被印度指控他們這些交易所是違反洗錢相關的法規所以請問一下我們為什麼要找幣安"},{"start":8245.924,"end":8271.745,"text":"報告委員就是說法務部不是那個弊案虛擬資產的那個監理機關那就我們了解是就是檢查機關還有那個刑事警察局的部分因為就是畢竟這是一個新興的一個犯罪的手法所以呢就是有要讓檢查所以找這個在國際知名的相關洗錢犯罪的集團來教我們怎麼樣防治洗錢因為那個虛擬資產我們有調取那個金流跟交易資料的一個必要性"},{"start":8272.15,"end":8293.407,"text":"所以我們就是跟國內還有國外的交易所必須有這個合作的管道要跟他們調取資料那這個部分就是幣安這邊有有些案件當中有協助檢查機關就是調取相關的這個交易資料所以呢所以你們要繼續跟他們合作嗎我在這邊您指出說在國際上他的裁罰不斷你今天你去打一個幣安立刻出現詐騙"},{"start":8295.919,"end":8320.533,"text":"你去Google只要打錯幣安就立刻出現詐騙所以我們還要繼續跟他們合作嗎報告委員就是我們指的是只有調取資料的部分像那個就是交易所的部分我們必須建立一些管道才能夠查詢跟調取資料那這個部分對於檢警在偵辦相關的這個詐欺的犯罪當中我們一定要透過幣安才能夠調取這些相關的資料喔它是其中一個交易所它是國外的一個交易所"},{"start":8321.462,"end":8346.243,"text":"你除了調取資料之外然後你還有跟他做一些研討會啊你們不要再丟臉了好不好真的在世界各國都罰他重罰他還把他的那個什麼創辦人關起來結果我們還繼續的合作然後告訴我們說我們要調資料還要透過幣安那我們法務部在這個國外的一些一些合作都是白做的嗎"},{"start":8347.564,"end":8348.404,"text":"你們根本就做錯了 到現在還嘴硬"},{"start":8369.485,"end":8393.894,"text":"停止跟幣安合作停止在這種國際上丟臉的行為你現在做法是說因為他是在境外詐騙他還沒有在台灣詐騙啊所以你在台灣給他洗白囉這不就是不折不扣的洗白而且透過我們的政府透過我們的檢調單位透過我們地方的地檢署你看我剛講說有這麼多的包含拜會啦包含這些活動包含研討會"},{"start":8395.593,"end":8421.499,"text":"結果台灣 台灣果然是一個詐騙島啊境外的這些詐騙直接到台灣就來洗白啦果然是不折不扣的詐騙島我們要跟世界去宣傳這件事情嗎好 所以這一點我今天既然質詢了我希望法部瞭解一下彼岸在世界各國他們惡名昭彰的行為不要再繼續跟他們合作了你找不到合法的業者喔"},{"start":8422.614,"end":8423.034,"text":"金額多少?金額大概是六七億"},{"start":8446.454,"end":8472.432,"text":"6、7億可是如果按照當時的宣布說兩天扣案就4億5那兩個月才6、7億是嗎到目前為止才扣完6、7億是那是不是那就代表說那兩天哇 那個什麼那種洗錢的那個狀況很多然後就是這兩個月是這種案子變少了呢還是說我們還是沒有查到"},{"start":8474.963,"end":8478.246,"text":"這可以說明一下嗎跟委員報告就是說之前那個虛擬資產的查扣就是我們還沒有做這個監管系統平台之前的時候是用冷錢包的方式查扣就是說比方說我們去犯罪的現場搜索那發現這個被告有這個虛擬資產例如比特幣那是用冷錢包的方式把那個錢給扣下來"},{"start":8492.64,"end":8501.752,"text":"所以之前新北跟台中的部分就是案件大概各扣了有兩億那都是扣在冷錢包這邊所以你的意思就是說一上線就把這個冷錢包轉移到這個平台上所以這個金額會就是所以這個上線兩天就告訴大家成果斐然啊成果非常好"},{"start":8510.262,"end":8528.573,"text":"但是事實上如果我們到現在來講的話它其實增加的並不像我們所想像所想像中那麼高前面有私意就是之前就扣下來只是我們把它轉到現在的這個熱錢包的這個公有鏈上那如果現在地檢署這邊有持續查扣到的話我們都是把錢打到這個公有鏈上"},{"start":8530.194,"end":8557.891,"text":"這個我就是要了解一下但是基本上有關弊安的問題今天我在這邊做正式的質詢重麻煩法務部你也可以找那個各地方的檢察署是不是還要繼續的跟弊安在做合作我不希望再看到繼續合作了我們會深刻檢討好好不好謝謝謝謝王宏威委的質詢待會在顏寬文委員質詢之後我們休息10分鐘接著我們請顏寬文委員質詢"},{"start":8570.817,"end":8590.436,"text":"主席、各位列席委員、各位官員、大家早主席我想請我們金融委員會主委有請彭主委主委好 委員好虛擬資產定利專法一直是全國關注的一個重點"},{"start":8591.601,"end":8617.264,"text":"那我想因為它太容易左右我們的生活以虛擬貨幣來講我們它不是法定貨幣但是因為就像央行總裁的回應一樣說虛擬貨幣它無法調節波動價格波動然後效率低沒有球場管道又容易變成是不法人事所利用然後呢又變成是境外交易或者是逃避一些法律規範的這些等等"},{"start":8617.904,"end":8633.422,"text":"那我想虛擬貨幣現在雖然是金管會的業務啦但是因為沒有專法那也不曉得說是金管會想要下哪個機關也無可監管然後呢這個要用什麼樣的法則來"},{"start":8635.705,"end":8647.095,"text":"對於這種虛擬貨幣犯罪的法令來做一個處置那因為我們的專法草案還沒有出來現在指令委由這個虛擬通貨公會"},{"start":8651.119,"end":8667.159,"text":"明天要成立嘛對不對是的是明天要成立那它作為一個過度的一個空窗期的一個自立規範建立自立規範那剛剛有委員分別都提到說這些工會的成員本身就是涉案的一些指標型的一些當事人"},{"start":8669.061,"end":8670.322,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主席"},{"start":8691.84,"end":8717.372,"text":"要求的到什麼樣程度?謝謝委員的關心剛剛委員其實提點很多事情確實是像比如說他到底是不是貨幣我想貨幣在學理上有幾個要件我想現在的虛擬資產都沒辦法吻合啦所以這是大家很有爭議的事情那未來是不是那還要看眼鏡那剛才有提到說我們未來怎麼納管我剛才在那個報告裡面我們有講說我們現在是用堆積木的方式一層一層的納管"},{"start":8718.472,"end":8742.961,"text":"剛剛講的自律規範只是我們堆疊積木的第二層就是這個不是所有因為比如說我們前面已經按照《洗錢防制法》做洗房聲明任何人要做這個業務現在都要做要滿足我們《洗錢防制法》這個規定再來第二個才是剛剛委員指導的就是說明天工會成立工會成立開始有個對話的窗口這裡面我們在去年有頒訂的"},{"start":8745.102,"end":8769.729,"text":"這個蠻明確的指導原則我們希望他把這些指導原則直接納入到他的自律規範並加強管理我們希望他能夠有自我的自律法則這只是積木的第二層接下來第三層我們接下來修《洗錢防制法》科以所謂的個人避傷沒有登記的刑責最後一層才是我們講剛剛委員講的專法這個專法我們一層層疊上去希望對這個市場能夠好好的管理"},{"start":8771.55,"end":8784.056,"text":"主委,我想很多不肖的業者因為現在利用為了這個賭幣銀行法的規範所以都用這種虛擬貨幣去做一個地下的交易"},{"start":8787.85,"end":8807.507,"text":"金管會的現在的動作就是說透過你剛剛提到的這個你也做了一個說明但是最重要最重要還是要為了要完善整個虛擬資產的一個制度還有很長的一段路但是要快要快就是說我們的一個設立專法要有一個專屬的虛擬資產的主要負責機關那這主要負責機關金管會對於說設立這個虛擬資產管理局"},{"start":8812.978,"end":8813.158,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8836.033,"end":8858.528,"text":"因為我也有有有給我們那個指導甚至朝向部的發展當然未來如果能夠局的話我們也能夠爭取這樣的一個資源我還是不申請反而要講就是說嚴謹並迅速的制定出這個專法是重點然後呢設局的部分我們要怎麼樣修法怎麼樣這個都我想大家都會支持那"},{"start":8859.449,"end":8887.991,"text":"再來我要再說一個我覺得很有趣啦也是匪夷所思的一個問題因為為了要防這個主詐然後盜刷銀行公會27日已經提案到金管會要將這個遊戲點數還有錢包的儲值、電子禮券等三大類的刷卡消費延遲24小時生效設定的門檻是3000設定門檻是3000我認為這個是就是有點好玩啦有點好笑啦什麼叫好笑3000以下"},{"start":8888.792,"end":8904.076,"text":"不受規範那這些盜刷這些詐騙集團狂刷2900、2800還不是一樣嗎對不對你設一個3000門檻在那邊然後呢他不用3000他2900、2800所以這個東西我認為說當然我們設定了很多的這些這個"},{"start":8912.145,"end":8933.036,"text":"為了要防止盜刷、犯罪等等我們設定了我們有很多的政策然後也動用了跨部會的很多的這樣子的一個方法一個政策去執行但是到底有沒有一個強勢而有效的方法而不是做這樣子的一個其實如果現在這個詐騙1點如果現在是1.5被1.5帶的話我們這個如果我們防詐是1.5的話現在這些詐騙集團已經跑到3.0了"},{"start":8941.32,"end":8942.281,"text":"銀行公會提過媒體報導引發大家關切"},{"start":8960.723,"end":8986.912,"text":"在我們委員會也有委員指證那實際上這個東西我們會再虛心的去檢討應該怎麼實施能夠兼顧到防詐以及我們消費權益這部分我們還在研議當中那至於說剛剛委員說希望我們未來更強而有力這就是我們今天站在這邊報告最重要的目的就希望透過法規還有我們的落實來執行我們希望能做到這一點"},{"start":8987.54,"end":8999.512,"text":"好 謝謝主委強勢有效的方法最重要好 謝謝主委請回那接下來請法務部我們的徐次長有許徐次長委員好次長好"},{"start":9005.552,"end":9021.445,"text":"市長那個6月6號我那個第一院臺北第一院審查虛擬交易商這個主謀採無罪答辯否認犯罪那他還強調說這個虛擬貨幣交易是創新產業因為法規不齊全他沒有這個詐欺的範疑"},{"start":9027.069,"end":9037.853,"text":"根據北檢起訴指控當事人透過金融網牌等交易所將虛擬貨幣上架操縱貨幣價格再由IMBA直銷團隊去推銷、礦片這些民眾購買投資"},{"start":9051.154,"end":9061.404,"text":"詐騷得手近8億元有超過1290位的被害人提告涉及洗錢的金額超過22億所以市長這個部分不僅誇張我想就是說"},{"start":9066.349,"end":9079.976,"text":"犯罪之後毫無詭異毫無詭異然後用法規不齊全的理由要為自己脫罪那我只想要說就是說我在電話局在今年3月的時候執行這種虛擬幣電信網路打詐的這些作為跟掃蕩"},{"start":9085.399,"end":9108.687,"text":"但是我們現在假避傷徵起前的犯罪組織非常的多我們的打詐速度完全跟不上他們的創新速度東邊補起來西邊又破一塊我很肯定我們警政署這些就是我們所有的這些在第一線打詐的這些人員在第一線在打擊詐騙這些人但是"},{"start":9112.128,"end":9128.897,"text":"如果沒有好的方法強勢而有效的方法那我們到底還能做什麼完全只能靠民眾自我的一個控管自己去防止被詐騙是這樣子嗎 市長"},{"start":9130.758,"end":9145.374,"text":"報告委員我想委員剛才講的很多都是對的方向因為打詐絕對不是單面的說宣導宣導是最重要的一環就是要讓我們的民眾有那個意識接著我們跨部會要合作"},{"start":9145.914,"end":9174.88,"text":"那跨部會合作就是加強監管的一個效率以它的強度那從源頭就可以把這些管道這個吸收人民金錢的這些管道全部給堵起來那接著當然就是我們結合所有的司法機關我們努力的去查查這些詐騙的人員我想這是多面向的所有的人都要一起努力不是只有靠檢察官或者是警察調查局調查官我想只有靠我們是不夠的要全民動起來"},{"start":9176.504,"end":9179.456,"text":"市長我再說最近我常常接到一些陳情"},{"start":9181.758,"end":9210.213,"text":"就是我們的這些選民他直接接到電話就是直接電話來就告訴你他是某某地政事務所打來的電話然後呢地政事務所問他要不要借款需不需要貸款那讓當事人這個非常害怕那他怎麼會有他的資料這些資料到底是從哪個地政事務所漏出來的流出來的那不只是這個因為你想想"},{"start":9213.536,"end":9239.276,"text":"這個真正的這個在銀行業如果我們民眾去貸款之後去做這個貸款申請然後結果受到詐騙受到外面這個詐騙集團的一個欺騙還能透過協商或者是這個幫助當事人的方式跟銀行請求減輕負擔降低利息等等但是這一些在外面從事這種私人企業的一個放貸就是為了要賺錢"},{"start":9240.777,"end":9255.365,"text":"那這個部分詐騙集團他能夠拿到這些地政室事務所的名單往往都是因為有土地交易那這些人都需要現金所以他被詐騙的機會非常的大這部分主席我再一下快結束了"},{"start":9256.125,"end":9271.735,"text":"另外就是我們很多民眾也接到這種詐騙集團假冒是自來水公司的名義來發送這種吹角水廢的簡訊然後誘導民眾連結到一個偽造的官方網站要求輸入信用卡等各自的問題"},{"start":9273.216,"end":9283.124,"text":"這個部分非常的嚴重啦好不好我想還是不勝其反要拜託警政署、相關機關要全力的來查緝防制有沒有問題好謝謝好謝謝嚴寬委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":9902.605,"end":9905.807,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接著我們請陳玉珍委員質詢主席 謝謝 請主委有請彭主委"},{"start":9920.074,"end":9936.407,"text":"主委你看到這個詐騙這個實在是非常非常的猖獗現在一年有這麼多的這個詐騙的金流在移動看我們金門的例子我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃"},{"start":9938.429,"end":9956.762,"text":"我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員他的名下的帳戶被賄賂多筆款項警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人賄賂的金額那他的帳戶就被列為警示帳戶那他當然否認涉案他說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用"},{"start":9958.343,"end":9984.579,"text":"但是不管他是參與或是他也是被害者就是遺失金融卡這個表示這個詐騙集團已經猖獗到金門連警察的帳戶都有牽扯到當然他現在被提出這個涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制以送到地檢署我要講的是連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是說撿到這個金融卡那雖然"},{"start":9985.765,"end":10011.06,"text":"可見詐騙真的太猖獗了我上次也問過您嘛您好像沒有被詐騙過也有接過詐騙電話只是沒有被騙到啦那我身邊好多人都被詐騙過而且都是算是受過一定教育的不是說那個很多種手法不管是什麼什麼ETC什麼轉帳啊或者是什麼買一個什麼貨到付款啦我身邊好多好多人都詐我也接過很多詐騙電話"},{"start":10012.321,"end":10031.154,"text":"那我有時候接到電話會懷疑說那天有銀行打電話我也開始懷疑說這個銀行怎麼會有資訊他是不是詐騙集團我還問他是不是詐騙集團因為我們沒有辦法判斷你知道嗎那雖然現在破案率很高啊不代表不代表這個打詐成功喔因為抓到的都是這個人頭戶嘛而且都是那個"},{"start":10031.994,"end":10032.935,"text":"金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":10050.31,"end":10066.392,"text":"而且破案以外對非案人士很多財務都追不回來那你們的作為呢?我們今天討論你們的作為的時候我看到你們的報告有講說去年9月這個人頭戶專案經驗有9大缺失你看這9大缺失"},{"start":10067.133,"end":10074.916,"text":"平凡開戶公會會診的異常太陽監控的參數有問題沒有辦法即時又偵測到異常交易警示的賬戶比對沒有建立沒有即時通知聯徵中心九位往來的客戶調高網路的轉帳線客戶的虛擬帳號被警示沒有"},{"start":10096.183,"end":10119.912,"text":"連結起來做暫停交易進行調查那這個九大的缺失你們的具體的做了哪些改善有什麼具體成效嗎謝謝委員這個是我們金管會在過去我們真的非常努力在做但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅但是我們剛才委員指證了我們現在有十大的做法簡單跟委員講一下"},{"start":10120.612,"end":10149.972,"text":"例如第一個我們會強化那個臨櫃關懷其實我們在過去臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦我去過銀行有個被關懷過關懷這是無微不至這一點是做得很好下一點呢對 下一個就我們剛才委員講的就是帳戶的管理這是我們的重中之重剛剛提到就剛才那個警示帳戶第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶還有就是未來我們的揮名單還有境內境外的管控名單這些我們都不斷地在加強這樣的管理就是我們帳戶管理是很重要我們主柵一個非常重要的點"},{"start":10152.033,"end":10165.52,"text":"針對新興的支付工具、第三方支付跟電資還有信用卡的部分我們也開始做很多的防堵我們還進行檢查我們還有做比如說未來打詐事法裡面如果通過的話我們還要這邊來強化所以當然這個沒有止境"},{"start":10171.825,"end":10182.577,"text":"金管會真的是非常非常重要的角色因為最後都是金流的問題嘛如果詐騙人拿不到錢的話那他可能這個手段的話或是各方面的話就是至少被害者的財產財務的損失"},{"start":10185.5,"end":10198.887,"text":"會降低那很重要我們今天討論虛擬貨幣的部分你們說你們這個我看你們這個報告裡面說那個個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢生命那個沒有做這個就詐騙集團他會把這個錢轉換成虛擬貨幣這個我們知道現在都慢慢的你們當然有嚴格要求做KYC掌控這個人頭賬戶那現在詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商再進行這個金錢的轉移那現在"},{"start":10212.535,"end":10239.129,"text":"你們說個人避傷沒有做洗錢聲明的這個職業聲明因此自屬違法但是這個有違反這個就是虛擬通貨辦法嗎?因為你這個VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人避傷嘛有違反公司法嗎?現在的話就是我們現階段剛剛講那個刑責部分要等到那個是刑責我知道現在的話我們是他沒有聲明去做這件事情我們現在是有罰則的"},{"start":10240.714,"end":10241.938,"text":"你說什麼?個人閉商啊?誰可以罰他?就是...我們先..."},{"start":10247.677,"end":10273.155,"text":"我們就罰過 對你們也可以罰他就對了 是不是個人避傷的部分 是不是對他有違反你們的VASP的這個原則嗎洗房辦法裡面 對洗房法是你們這邊罰的嗎洗房法裡面規定的執法這一塊是由我們來主政因為洗錢 這個虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制的主政單位是他沒有變成公私組織你們有可以就對了 是不是也歸在今晚會這邊可以處罰 是嗎"},{"start":10274.356,"end":10299.847,"text":"我確認一下因為這個大型的這個我們看到大型的這個平台的這個弊商齁你們是列管的嘛你們可以做行政管制嘛對 如果說他已經做我們的洗房登記的那些業者對 對 對如果你說大型的那個平台的話如果有做登記那個人弊商不用你們許可嘛那要做登記嗎 也是要嗎現在 現在要現在個人弊商也要做登記就是未來我們為了強化管理如果沒有登記的而執行這個業務會有行者"},{"start":10302.372,"end":10328.399,"text":"那但是刑責 我知道刑責 但刑責比較慢啊你知道嗎 就等於是中間刑責等於是刑責不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛 對不對刑責要事後的這個比較 刑事處分嘛刑責的要求比較 所以等於是那你在這個部分 你看個人 你看我這個簡報裡頭個人避傷 你們沒有許可 你們做的是刑責那做刑責的話 最後你們沒有辦法管啊都變成是司法去管啊 法務部去管嘛 對不對那最後"},{"start":10329.259,"end":10356.522,"text":"進入司法很冗長啦然後最後的話很多受害者的這個金錢事實上也都是拿不到的啊您了解我在說什麼嗎?就是說你可以管的是大型平台避傷嘛對不對這個你們略管你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分嘛那這個是管理得到的比較可以及時比較能及時管到嘛因為它是有你們登記嘛那你剛剛說個人避傷也要向你們登記是嗎?"},{"start":10357.923,"end":10383.065,"text":"現在是好那但是那像你們登記然後你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎現在的話我們沒辦法用刑責的方式那這個部分你們沒辦法用行政因為刑責也不歸你們這邊還要立法還要立法所以這個部分你們什麼時候應該也要讓這個個人避傷不然的話這個會變成一個漏洞啊這個詐騙集團他就把錢轉到這個個人避傷的這個手上你就切不掉那最後當然用刑責刑責受害者"},{"start":10383.726,"end":10411.516,"text":"被害者去報警報警後就進入司法司法程序這麼冗長等到查到的時候那個錢早就不知道留到何方了您了解嗎這變成法律上的漏洞啊是是是我們對那個帳流跟幣流我們也有一些管控措施剛才提到我們提到未來假設的打詐司法裡面有通過的話這一塊的話我們可以做一些金流的攬所以這個如果通過你們裡頭也會包括有關這個個人幣商的部分你們也會做那個嗎也是納管"},{"start":10412.416,"end":10413.658,"text":"那會有行政的處罰嗎?"},{"start":10429.159,"end":10444.03,"text":"超商現在都有這個貨到戶款嘛對不對那戶到戶款有時候這個貨也不知道是誰的貨然後人家去了就領了莫名其妙就領了領後就付了款那付了款以後這個錢現在剛付的時候應該還在超商的這個手上啦就是超商的這個的這個帳戶裡頭還不會一下就流到這個"},{"start":10454.918,"end":10471.989,"text":"有關金流的部分我們是相關的法例或法務部知不知道相關法例是可以規定說比如說他用這種超商平台在詐騙有人會用超商的平台詐騙那詐騙的時候你去超商付款可能刷這個可能付這個以後這個是不是有一個金流時間也可以給他控管住"},{"start":10472.789,"end":10488.133,"text":"讓至少比如說發現如果比如說我拿了一個東西回來我發現說這個東西不是我訂的我被詐騙了然後趕快回去跟超商講說這多少24小時還多久可以讓這個金流從這裡阻住這樣子因為超商是很方便的地方那有時候這個詐騙人就用這個"},{"start":10490.114,"end":10490.954,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主席"},{"start":10513.46,"end":10535.246,"text":"我們會支持你的打詐示範我的意思就是說金融部分務實面來講剛有說3000塊轉帳24小時那因為超商是很多人在那邊不管是刷卡或者是付這個錢付那個錢有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙那是不是在這個部分有在各個這種平台超商也是一個平台的部分在這個金融部分你們要做相關的管控"},{"start":10535.966,"end":10558.119,"text":"這樣可以防止錢被流到這個詐騙集團上面去因為我發現好多人跟我曾經都去招商做很多事情這部分是不是你們也看一下如果在裡面沒有規定或這個只要行政的手段來做的話法務部或是金管會這邊是不是也來做一個規定我想這可以有效阻絕很多人被騙就是金流流到詐騙集團手上"},{"start":10558.699,"end":10566.327,"text":"謝謝委員我想這些剛剛提到的都在我們未來規定的範圍之內有齁好麻煩你齁謝謝陳宇宗委員的質詢接著我們請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席有請金管瑞主委有請彭主委"},{"start":10585.112,"end":10602.477,"text":"主委好有一個全球防詐聯盟叫做GASA它有在做一個去年的統計報告出來台灣的部分它是說每個月就是每個人至少一次被詐騙的經驗"},{"start":10604.517,"end":10627.682,"text":"而且當中66.7%的人是認為他的經濟受到影響所以我想這個詐騙這件事情對我們全體國民、國人來講其實是非常的困擾我甚至在前幾天有個次長到辦公室開會他不斷地接到電話"},{"start":10628.982,"end":10634.338,"text":"我說您接沒關係銀行通知他說他的信用卡被倒刷兩萬"},{"start":10636.038,"end":10660.625,"text":"那我跟他說這個可能是詐騙電話我請辦公室幫您確認一下果然真的是被盜刷所以我想這個是每個人都遇得到跟我們的年齡跟我們的教育程度其實沒有什麼相關因為他可能是就是亂數在那個地方跑那我現在是說這個其中其實信用卡確實是很讓人困擾"},{"start":10661.425,"end":10679.975,"text":"那我看到金管會下的這個聯合信用卡處理中心你們也有做一些統計資料那把這個信用卡的詐騙類型它是分為七大類那在這個當中我們也看到從過去10年前2014年27萬筆的詐欺筆數"},{"start":10684.537,"end":10707.472,"text":"他的詐騙金額是5.7億到現在的話是大約60萬比33億他是有起伏高低但是確實是不斷的在成長當中那這個當中我請教一下因為我看到你們做出來的這個分析他把這個網購類網購類他是佔比99%"},{"start":10712.896,"end":10734.833,"text":"那其他的包括備竊卡、遺失卡他種種其他的佔比加起來才1%可是呢這個網購類的詐欺信用卡詐欺是佔99%那我想請教一下主委這個樣子的一個這麼差距這麼大的比例您認為是一個什麼樣的情形"},{"start":10739.865,"end":10760.506,"text":"這可能是網購是一個通路但它很多的這個工具可能是這樣分類的關係不過這個確實網購是一個很大詐騙的可以在那邊出沒的地方這樣可以看得出來如果說這樣的分類確實的話我知道的是我有問別人就是網購到底你們是怎麼被詐騙"},{"start":10761.647,"end":10778.744,"text":"他們是說因為我們現在這個信用卡他去網購的時候不需要用實體他只要留下他的卡號、辨識碼、日期、姓名等等資料而這些資料其實是可以透過設立一個假網站"},{"start":10779.705,"end":10797.187,"text":"或者是釣魚的連結、簡訊又或者是它是粉磚小編其實我們在滑我們的什麼臉書啊什麼經常都滑得到類似的形態它就是把你的個資就竊取了我們自己就外洩了"},{"start":10798.568,"end":10821.633,"text":"我現在想要請教主委說這樣的一個防堵的方式金管會有什麼策進作為嗎我們過去也有觀察到信用卡在刷卡過程當中有潛藏蠻多的風險比如說我們做了幾件事情要求他們在比如刷卡的時候第一個要求要顯示新台幣的金額其實我們也看到有人用比如說這個NTW"},{"start":10823.914,"end":10825.156,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主席"},{"start":10843.958,"end":10859.989,"text":"謝謝主委你講到OTP我也問過他們說OTP確實是最好的一種驗證方式但是呢他們說可不可以再改進一下因為這個OTP發送檢訊啊它有的銀行它是"},{"start":10861.055,"end":10883.605,"text":"用E-mail有的是簡訊手機簡訊加E-mail那但是這個E-mail其實是一個破口那其實手機大家天天拿在手上就算手機不見了也會急著去找所以他其實這個部分這是其一那其二他們說有一些舉個例子像PC Home他們有的沒有加入這個OTP簡訊驗證碼"},{"start":10885.986,"end":10915.3,"text":"所以金管會這個部分我是想說你們是不是應該來去做一個盤點就是在比如說在信用卡刷卡的時候OTP驗證的部分我們會來對就是關於這個OTP驗證因為大家都說這個是最好最有效那你應該去盤點哪一些沒有加入要公告讓大家知道哪一些人他並沒有加入這種驗證方式那也去盤一下有哪些是用email發送大家說那個不好用我想金管會應該可以做這個工作吧"},{"start":10916.08,"end":10940.227,"text":"我們的盤點沒有問題啦好那另外就是雖然不到1%但是他也佔4.7億元就是那個遺失卡的部分那我之前在3月25號的時候其實我有質詢過因為大家都說是不是可以請金管會去要求一下做一個一戰式的金融卡信用卡掛失機制那我要跟主委講"},{"start":10941.147,"end":10963.808,"text":"其實那天質詢了之後好幾家的媒體其實都有把這樣的新聞訊息披露出來表示說很有感大家覺得這確實是個問題如果能夠解決的話很好但是金管會的回覆是這樣說他說目前持卡人申辦信用卡及金融卡約定條款尚未授權單一掛式窗口的業務第二個呢"},{"start":10967.571,"end":10979.299,"text":"說辦理掛失業務需要各銀行機構分別與持卡人、本人詳細確認個資增加單一窗口進行相關資業可能會提高個資外洩措施掛失的相關風險及損失"},{"start":10982.941,"end":11008.998,"text":"所以我看起來好像是很難銀行好像沒有意願但是我們也覺得很奇怪啊因為按照信用卡定型化契約其實上面都寫著如果辦理掛失其實是需由發卡機構負擔或者是掛失手續前24小時持卡人免負擔所以理論上我們覺得應該是銀行比較吃虧吧"},{"start":11009.798,"end":11025.53,"text":"所以金管會是不是可以幫忙去調查一下到底這樣的一個被掛屍的倒刷這種他到底民眾的損失多還是銀行的損失多可以幫忙了解一下嗎 主委可以 我們來看看有沒有這個資料對"},{"start":11026.391,"end":11026.451,"text":"委員好"},{"start":11053.643,"end":11069.06,"text":"我看到你們法務部有一筆資料就是關於地檢署執行原住民裁判確定有罪者之前十大罪名那裡頭大概是寫到說詐欺罪的成長最多啦"},{"start":11071.4,"end":11088.444,"text":"年增率是67.5%但是我自己也做了一點功課因為這樣的資料的揭露有一點危險會讓人家以為原住民會詐欺罪很多但是全國的詐欺罪的成長率是76.6%"},{"start":11092.765,"end":11112.957,"text":"我們原住民的人口是佔全體國人的2.5%那我也特別去看了一下這樣的一個詐欺罪的案例就是全年度349件除以全體的母數14000多件也是跟人口比例很符合2.5%"},{"start":11115.259,"end":11136.76,"text":"那就讓我比較沒有那麼緊張了啦但是我要跟次長您講但是我很憂慮我很難過為什麼這樣的一個比例雖然跟全國差不多而且甚至低於全國可是你知道嗎我們看貧窮線的時候以去年來講"},{"start":11137.941,"end":11143.952,"text":"我們全體國人的家戶平均收入是129萬可是原住民是73萬"},{"start":11146.011,"end":11170.077,"text":"幾乎一半也就是說對原住民來講其實對我們來講這是不可承受之重或輕對我們的經濟影響其實是很大的所以呢我就是很關心也很想了解就是後來因為這是2013到2017的資料嘛那不曉得說法務部這邊後來有什麼樣的策進作為有改善嗎"},{"start":11171.701,"end":11199.415,"text":"我們還是會透過不同的管道來宣導當然我們原住民的朋友跟我們一般的民眾我們也都是一樣會做宣導偏鄉的宣導宣導有用嗎宣導是基本的我想我們甚至於會到小學、中學我們要從最基本開始宣導起宣導是有用嗎可是我們宣導了十幾二十幾年那些孩子也都已經成為成年人了"},{"start":11201.355,"end":11225.543,"text":"我們的宣導工作不能停所以我希望聽宣導之外還有什麼策進作為那如何改善原住民朋友的生活環境我想委員都很關心因為其實這種詐欺人頭對原住民來講其實我們的經濟體質本來就比較弱其實會造成我們更大的衝擊"},{"start":11226.744,"end":11241.298,"text":"所以委員一直在關心這個問題如何改善他們的工作因為像這個人頭帳戶像我從柬埔寨帶回來的那些人他就立刻進行警局啊他就是人頭戶啊這個情形很嚴重啊"},{"start":11243.059,"end":11268.093,"text":"他們把我們等同於像遊民一樣是可以利用的是欺騙我們博取我們的善良所以我希望法務部要有更多策進作為而且這是2013到2017的資料2018到2024我就沒看到所以我無法比較到底有沒有成效所以是不是可以提供我最近五年2018到2024的資料讓我了解看看有沒有成效"},{"start":11268.633,"end":11268.914,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11284.158,"end":11285.698,"text":"主席有請彭主委有請彭主委"},{"start":11316.325,"end":11334.725,"text":"委員好主委好其實本期上一屆在財政委員會的時候針對今天從昨天開始發生的星光人壽還有星光金扣我就提出了多次的質詢當然今天昨天從這個吳東進被收押到1億元的交保"},{"start":11335.826,"end":11360.363,"text":"對於星光金控這個集團本席在上一屆從2021年開始有五次的諮詢然後兩次的臉書發文當時他們的公私治理我就收到非常多的檢舉包括當時對於當時的金管會主委或者是保險局我不只一次的提出要求對於他們的內機、內控甚至於他們曾經發生的這個相關的高階人員該所以處以的罰還該"},{"start":11365.407,"end":11389.948,"text":"等等其實都沒有好好的來進行果然諸位啊真的是出事了那麼對於這樣的一個星光人壽、吳東敬現在1億元交報1億元這個金額非常高喔是吧如果是以一般的案件來講我認為過去金管會面對立法委員質詢的時候要求如果你們只是約談、交報告、裁罰、減薪"},{"start":11393.01,"end":11418.911,"text":"包括他們的整體的公司治理比如說像金管會為什麼會退他們的報告他們的KYC包括星光銀行對IMB的事件等等包括我曾經質詢過星光金控是國內14家的業者當中唯一游營轉虧等等現在我要面臨的問題是新售現在正在進行125億元的增資"},{"start":11422.642,"end":11444.319,"text":"金管會現在怎麼來看這個增資案會不會受到影響那麼如果受到影響的話後續該怎麼處理金管會面對這樣的一個案件我知道有些委員會說啊 這個是不是一個政治案件但是我先把大前提說在前面如果任何一個非法都扣上政治辦案那我說了"},{"start":11445.253,"end":11471.584,"text":"法院可以收起來了檢察官也不用辦案了調查局也不用查案了因為就會成為所有犯罪者的一個脫逃的一個標籤我現在在乎的是一個整體的金融穩定目前新售125億的增資還在增資當中過去它的RBC一直都是不足到200%所以現在你怎麼來看整體的金融市場會不會受到影響"},{"start":11472.526,"end":11499.227,"text":"是 謝謝委員我想喔維持金融市場的穩定以及市場的公平這是金管會責無旁貸剛剛委員講說對於過去的質詢對於金管會的指證我想我們都會銘記在心而且我們也都持續的依法在辦理剛剛委員提到說難道我們沒有其他的工具了嗎其實我們是一個行政主管機關我們依保險法裡面擁有的職權我們會"},{"start":11501.608,"end":11521.555,"text":"該怎麼做我們就怎麼做至於說大股東個人的行為我剛剛已經表達過了這是大股東個人的行為我們關注的是整個金控公司以及他所屬的金融機構的穩定性這個剛剛委員的指正我們都會持續來講至於說剛剛您提到曾之漢是否受到影響"},{"start":11522.475,"end":11536.931,"text":"我想新售它過去沒有符合RBC的規定我們依保險法的規定要求他們在5月24號已經提出了相關的計畫我們剛才在審議中剛剛也報告說我們在6月底前會針對它的增資計畫進行所謂的回復意見這部分"},{"start":11542.998,"end":11559.615,"text":"我們剛才講過這次大股東行為跟這是兩回事我們增資計劃我們還是按照程序進行好主委我要提醒的就是說這個大股東他過去在我的質詢當中那是不止一次就是他會插手他非職務之內的事件"},{"start":11561.417,"end":11586.102,"text":"那麼現在被爆出弊案之後有資金的挪用之後第一個投資人還要相信給予增資的機會嗎第二個是我們知道現在出事的是新手但是在星光金控底下還有星光銀行還有元富證券還有星光投信還有星光金保貸還有星光金的創投那這個大股東"},{"start":11587.862,"end":11606.635,"text":"就像您所說的他擁有實質的股權的時候他的手只插入星光金嗎金管會有沒有再針對其他包括銀行、證券、投信、創投或者是保貸來進行了解因為當時我已經不止一次的在詢問說這個大股東他是不是握有這個"},{"start":11607.896,"end":11622.779,"text":"大股的權利但是變成是底下的人即使不願意但是沒有辦法到股東交代這就是公司自己上一個很大的破口啊是的這也是為什麼我在上任業務報告裡面對於市場管理對於大股東"},{"start":11624.22,"end":11648.352,"text":"對於所謂的他不具有權責相當的這個要進行管理這個我們也把這個未來會提法來修改剛剛提到就是說我們對旗下各子公司的關注我們整個會當然是完全都有去做一些掌控至於剛才大家擔心風險感染的問題金控法53條、55條、36條都有明確的規定我想我們都依法在執行中"},{"start":11649.392,"end":11673.885,"text":"本席提醒 主席我知道時間到了我趕快 儘快做結論本席提醒 第一新光監控底下除了新售之外還有銀行還有證券還有投信大股東的作為如果今天他人壽可以伸手的時候其他有沒有伸手請金管會了解了解之後提問報告再來就是我提醒國華人壽當時政府是挹注了八千八百八十億八百八十幾億 對不對但是他的資產只有"},{"start":11676.727,"end":11695.575,"text":"三千億喔今天新售的規模比這個還要高上好幾倍的時候我們要做好準備好嗎是的沒問題我想剛剛那個委員指正還有資料我們會再跟委員報告好謝謝謝謝林土英委員的諮詢接著請洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員、洪孟凱委員不在接著我們請李坤成委員諮詢"},{"start":11705.76,"end":11708.832,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請金管委彭主委有請彭主委"},{"start":11713.357,"end":11732.732,"text":"主委好今天我看也很多的委員都很關心這個新光榮獸的這個前董事長吳東進被約談的事情那我想請問一下這件事情呢這個前應該是在說在2022年3月10號我看金管會有一個新聞稿這個新聞稿就是認為說這個吳東進的前董事長"},{"start":11736.291,"end":11758.895,"text":"他在停職董事長的職位召開會議有不動產相關的會議由他擔任主席有24次沒有出席會議但要指示怎麼做有3次按照吳東進指示提報董事會審議該公司與吳東進投資的事業進行交易者有4案這是在3月"},{"start":11760.296,"end":11773.124,"text":"這個2022年3月10號的這個金管會的這個新聞稿這個我們市局長也在這邊那我想請問一下這個案子這個是不是跟我們這個2022年這個3月份的這個金管會的這一個"},{"start":11774.763,"end":11798.4,"text":"這個檢查有關係嗎?是的,我想在過去其實每家金控跟所有的金融機構都會接受例行性的檢查我想我們應該是在110年的時候對這個進行檢查這時候我們檢查出了一些的意見我們剛才會尋我們內部有駐會檢察官的管道認為說有涉犯刑法的疑慮的會移送給檢調處理委員剛才講的就是這樣一個過程"},{"start":11803.503,"end":11828.608,"text":"請問一下主委或是局長當時候金管會有沒有針對這一個進行對星光人獸處分之後有沒有依請檢察官進行偵辦這個案子應該是我們去年應該是去年5月移送去年5月移送那去年5月移送這案子是在2022年3月份你們有處分然後去年5月移送那為什麼到今年的6月才開始"},{"start":11829.711,"end":11847.481,"text":"跟委員報告,就是我們金管會是一個行政機關,減掉他們的步驟跟他們的作為,我們是沒有辦法去智慧,對,謝謝因為你們這個,它是一個獨立機關,可是實際很剛好,現在不是要來爭執嗎?對不對?然後呢,我問一下局長好了"},{"start":11848.621,"end":11864.646,"text":"現在政治的報告已經送到金管會了,你們也看到報告,然後有一些相關的一些建議提供給他們,也請他們再提供資料,對不對?對,我們還在討論還在討論中,那是往正向的發展還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":11869.941,"end":11890.973,"text":"我們當然希望能夠正向發展啦尤其是在他提出的方案能不能執行的細節進行一些溝通那所以這個兩案子那個包含新光能的時候跟山上美邦都是朝正面發展就對了我們會盡量跟他們溝通希望朝正面發展好那這個會不會影響到他們的爭執啊"},{"start":11894.169,"end":11922.106,"text":"應該兩件事情增資的部分他財業務的計畫已經來了就是他有跟我們承諾他要增資那我們就這個來做討論啦所以這個承諾是針對財業務改善計畫跟現在大股東的問題他增資的期限是到哪時候啊合理期限就是我們要跟他討論他那個時程到底能不能能達成那他是提到的期限是哪時候"},{"start":11923.865,"end":11944.539,"text":"有可能在下半年其實我關心的是這一個它的資本市主力的問題本來大家已經提心吊膽了現在又出現這件事情會不會影響到他們政治我想這兩個事情是兩件事但是我們會密切注意是不是有受到影響你說它是兩件事但是它有可能是一件事情"},{"start":11946.002,"end":11969.554,"text":"這個投資人的心裡覺得說這個前董事長已經被依背信罪被這個約談了那可能會影響到他們投資啊對我剛才講說這兩件事情是他所涉犯的法律層次是不一樣我剛才也有說明過在法律上獨立的但是呢比如說市場上心裡面受到影響這種我們沒辦法預期但是我們看這件事情真知我們就按照程序來進行"},{"start":11971.675,"end":11998.381,"text":"請教主委今天的討論主題是虛擬貨幣請問一下這五年多來從107年我看資料你們有把修正的《洗錢防制法》把虛擬通貨納入洗錢房子的低度規範的管理然後在110年6月也有制定虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊滋恐的辦法然後112年9月又公布了"},{"start":12000.221,"end":12007.233,"text":"虛擬資產平台交易業務事業（VASP（的指導原則然後到113年最近有《洗錢防制法》"},{"start":12008.48,"end":12031.896,"text":"第15條之二第6項帳戶暫停限制功能或禁與關閉的管理辦法然後呢你們也這個有一個VASP的指導原則那請問一下這個工會是明天要成立嗎是的那委員剛剛對那個法規收集非常的完整就是說第一個沒有錯就按照我們的收到的訊息工會是在6月13號會會來籌組工會好那這個"},{"start":12037.708,"end":12041.252,"text":"公會裡面目前完成聲明登記的有25家對不對是的那沒有登記的有幾家"},{"start":12050.923,"end":12067.51,"text":"現在過去陸陸續續跟我們申請因為它其實上有些是我們把它拒絕以後它當然可以改善再來我們現在大概是目前我們還在審核中應該十幾家應該四五六家有沒有一個期限就是說我們希望說他們做來做這一個登記"},{"start":12069.767,"end":12091.129,"text":"現在大概六、七十家吧過去曾經來申請過六、七十家但是有些不服我們今天跟他回復意見他改善就會還會再過來現在還在等的等我們審查意見大概有16家、15家左右那有沒有一個期限這個要看他們準備的程度因為其實我們的洗房禮聲明他要做到的點其實蠻多的那所以說這個成立工會"},{"start":12091.71,"end":12105.955,"text":"基本上就是有這個聲明的這25家就對了是的 就是我們已經做完洗房聲明的總共現在大概是24、5家那這25家裡面有一家叫做這個S王牌數位交易所 有沒有有"},{"start":12106.875,"end":12124.897,"text":"那他的負責人齁那之前齁才因為這個涉及詐騙洗錢齁對應該是前負責人對啦因為他現在被抓進去了嘛是前負責人嘛那我問一下那所以他也是工會的成員之一先生目前是那這樣有沒有問題啊呃當然這是個自律組織啦那我們我們還要自立遊戲規則欸"},{"start":12126.398,"end":12151.842,"text":"那結果他的前負責人這家機構他的前負責人涉及詐騙那結果這一家的交易所虛擬貨幣交易所要來制定這個遊戲規則這樣會不會有點怪怪的當然他只是其中之一而且那個前涉犯的負責人已經現在更換成另外一家公司我想不是啊那是換湯不換藥啊這個的話我想工會他們應該會做出明智的抉擇啦我們在那你的態度啊要是看你的態度啊"},{"start":12152.282,"end":12173.18,"text":"站在主管機關我們一定希望這個市場健全發展公會的籌組是非常重要的機制是啊所以我們才希望說它能夠發揮功能那結果這個發現說裡面這個王牌數位這個交易所這個涉及詐騙那結果它要訂立這個虛擬貨幣的這個遊戲規則我們是覺得很奇怪啊然後它也沒有任何的沒有任何的行政處罰都沒有"},{"start":12174.06,"end":12188.894,"text":"未來我們希望他工會因為很多的工會自律規範他們也會有罰則只是我剛才講說未來對這個管理不是只有這個工會因為我剛才講我們會用四道積木的去堆疊我們三法是到明年的事情了啊"},{"start":12190.094,"end":12205.862,"text":"現在就是用工會的規範來做處理現在我們除了《洗錢防制法》剛才委員所條列的那幾個法規以外接下來明天就會有一個工會成立我們就趕快督導他成立工會就等於說再疊加上來假設我們《洗錢防制法》也通過的話"},{"start":12207.143,"end":12219.853,"text":"會再疊加一層當我們專法出來就會疊加一層基木要疊得好你下面基礎要穩所以我們剛就在質疑說你這個下面基礎不穩的話你上面怎麼堆上去啊我們一定是會好好的來處理所以我才問說你這個你對於這個有涉及這個洗錢的詐騙的這個"},{"start":12224.596,"end":12248.352,"text":"虛擬貨幣的公司你還讓它繼續成為工會的議員你也覺得無所謂就對了不是我想這個工會任何應該他們要有一個自我約束的機制畢竟它是一個商業同業工會那我會請我們的那個政績局密切的督導對啊你們是主管單位啊工會是歸工會當然工會有自律的規範但是你們是主管單位啊不能說這個一點態度都沒有啊到現在也沒有任何的行政處分都沒有"},{"start":12249.372,"end":12271.438,"text":"現在的部分我們現在因為公會還沒成立但是呢不是啊 我的意思是說像這種有涉及到詐騙的這個虛擬資產的公司然後當然他前副責人被抓走了但是這家公司沒有任何的沒有任何的處罰 文具都沒有嗎這是我想說另外一個層次可能不在我們今晚會的主管範圍啦那是誰的主管範圍如果說涉犯違法的話應該是"},{"start":12274.337,"end":12294.273,"text":"因為金管會是對這個洗錢防制的部分還就是做一個...不是啊,那所以說這家公司它有涉及違法了然後沒有任何的一個行政部門可以對它做任何的處罰都會覺得蠻奇怪的,這不歸金管會管嗎?我們就看它所列管,就跟剛剛我們討論剛剛比如說某家...不是啊,我問主委,它歸不歸你管?"},{"start":12297.858,"end":12310.607,"text":"現在不跟你管現在我們根據剛剛那個洗房的規定我們是我們對這個VASP是一個主政單位對啊所以我才問說他沒有任何的處罰完全沒有"},{"start":12311.668,"end":12334.015,"text":"這很奇怪吧這我們來理解一下這我們會來理解啦不是理解啦我的意思是說他這是一個詐騙的公司然後他籌組工會那你也認為說他的合法性沒有問題那我再問說那你這家公司負責人是被抓走是他這個人的問題啊但是這家公司沒有任何的處罰我也覺得蠻奇怪的啊都沒有嗎"},{"start":12339.395,"end":12357.512,"text":"因為我們內部其實有對這些個人弊商比較異常的那其實我們有控管案子那等我們內部審查完畢之後也有可能他我們會用到我們的行政處分來處分這些公司早就要處理了啊我先聽主委講說這個好像不歸你管一樣是歸你管的啊"},{"start":12358.274,"end":12379.86,"text":"那以後大家都亂搞就好了啊《洗錢防制法》還是有規範到啦所以我們會依照《洗錢防制法》來規範它是嘛 可以管的啊 怎麼會沒有辦法管呢 主委這是態度的問題啊你要管就可以管啊 對不對你是盡管貴欸我們一定承擔 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝李坤城委員的質詢接下來請葛如君委員質詢"},{"start":12388.315,"end":12412.119,"text":"謝謝主席有請金管會彭金隆主委有請彭主委委員好主委好我想今天雖然我們的這個題目有說VASP淪為詐騙工具但我們認為這有一點汙名的感覺我也相信這個官員也不是這樣想的汽車也可以拿來做這個作案"},{"start":12412.639,"end":12428.182,"text":"但是我想也可能被淪為詐騙工具所以我想所有的東西都有可能被惡意的使用虛擬貨幣其實就技術而言都是中立的我必須幫科學技術來說一聲話那當然剛剛也非常印象深刻"},{"start":12428.903,"end":12453.1,"text":"您我相信您我都同意防制洗錢和詐欺犯罪的重要性也要針對虛擬資產及交易事業VASP的規範我們也必須要擔心是不是過於嚴苛對這個新興產業造成不必要的壓力但剛剛您有提到非常尊重這個明天會正式成立的這個工會我也予以讚賞跟贊同那是不是給您一點時間來分享一下"},{"start":12453.8,"end":12482.165,"text":"用工會加上我們的這個主管機關怎麼樣來做一個平衡是不是一個好的做法是不是也能讓你說明一下為什麼工會其實非常的重要謝謝委員我想我們在金管會在過去對市場的監理呢就有一套模式像比如說我就先舉例像我們銀行我們有完善的法令但是也有工會在運作那當然這個前提是它必須要是一個納管的單位對"},{"start":12482.785,"end":12502.261,"text":"所以我們想說我們剛剛也跟委員會報告我們先初步呢先用《洗錢防制法》切入然後再來呢我們希望它籌組工會工會是個自律組織它不是個法律約束但是我們是身為主管機關我們會強力的監督再來我們接下來第三階段服役《洗錢防制法》裡面可以行者加重這個管理最後我們有個專法來處理這件事情"},{"start":12505.524,"end":12532.401,"text":"那剛好也是我要問的根據報告內容金管會已經要求VASP業者制定自律規範而且相關規範要經金管會核准表示業者已經尋求並且也自我約束、積極自我管理有相關的機制來保護消費者您剛才也提到第三階段之後有登記制以及也要符合《洗錢防制法》以及《洗錢防制法》裡頭又有刑罰的標準"},{"start":12534.543,"end":12550.178,"text":"所以我想請教一下主委既然已經有自律規範也有工會從明天開始那麼正在主管機關的立場為何不給這些自律規範更多的時間來驗證它的可能性而要急於推動專法來進行管控呢是不是可以稍微回應一下"},{"start":12550.778,"end":12570.323,"text":"謝謝其實剛才委員講的專法應該是第四階段是那等於說我們按照的時程最快我們大概就是明年的上半年才會提到報院報院呢那接下來還要經過院的審查送到大院來審查凝聚共識我覺得會有一段很長的時間那在這個中間我們打詐不能"},{"start":12571.603,"end":12581.312,"text":"所以我們先用《洗錢防制法》修正去做但是我們也希望說我們的自律規範能趕快上路能夠用多方的方式來彌補這段時間空窗"},{"start":12581.84,"end":12601.128,"text":"很好 謝謝主委我想我們一樣也是有共識公司協作可以有效平衡防弊與新利的目標這一點我相信我們都是非常重視的那您今天的報告也提到聯防通報的機制快速返還招詐欺款項等等的機制這個確實能夠提高防詐的效果"},{"start":12601.508,"end":12629.32,"text":"但需要各方的高度協同想請教一下主委在實施上如何確保相關的比如說警察機關、司法機關、金融機構和VASP之間能夠無縫的合作金管會對此有沒有一些關於內部教育或者是技術、金流分析的工具尤其是虛擬的金流有沒有一些具體的技術的掌握、工具的掌握實施的方案和時間表您是否認同我這一塊說法"},{"start":12630.46,"end":12657.726,"text":"當然這個監管對我們來講是很大的挑戰就是我也不會沿金管會的資源從過去傳統的金融監理走到數位的監理確實要一段的這個調整但是我們過去在長期在推動金融科技發展的時候我們也累積了一些資源那我想說未來我們會朝這個方向來發展那至於說裡面剛剛講我們需要補強的地方我們會來加強補強因為畢竟這是已經是確定的趨勢我們就要勇於面對"},{"start":12658.266,"end":12680.801,"text":"我想各國關於這個虛擬金流的分析還有防詐的工具技術其實都有很深的著力臺灣的業者其實也這個能力非常強也希望能夠持續的做到公司協力那最後我再次強調啦虛擬資產作為一種新興科技它其實具備極大的發展潛力因為它不需要圈地不需要過多的水"},{"start":12681.161,"end":12709.729,"text":"也不需要過多的電到目前為止現在已經有新的技術了所以政府應該鼓勵並支持產業的發展不要一味的強化監管這個我有看到您的精神我予以支持請監管會持續的平衡防弊與新力給予自律組織和自律規範更多的時間與空間謝謝謝謝指正謝謝謝謝葛珠君委員的質詢今天請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接著我們請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":12733.237,"end":12736.798,"text":"謝謝主席我請金國會彭主委有請彭主委喂你好彭主委我們金國會已經納管虛擬貨幣那麼這個產業四個階段從第一階段到第四階段當中第一階段已經完成了啦齁那這個推動設立那麼制定自律規範來管理這第二階段第三階段你們打算"},{"start":12762.867,"end":12763.227,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":12784.661,"end":12803.718,"text":"來對非法業者科以刑責、加以管理這個都對但是到目前為止我們變成只對平台不對個人啦針對這些個人戶那麼我們似乎沒有任何的對策"},{"start":12805.236,"end":12821.399,"text":"那麼從3年前110年6月開始事實上那麼金管委已經陸續有在推動那麼推動的就是說對於這個這些虛擬貨幣平台VASP做這個法尊"},{"start":12823.763,"end":12842.534,"text":"法尊聲明的這些管理可是110年6月到現在為止吼你們納管願意登記來成立的只有25家這25家全部都是法人都是公司沒有個人必商那"},{"start":12845.834,"end":12856.602,"text":"那個主委我認為個人避傷才是重點耶你看所有在涉入詐欺的幾乎啦"},{"start":12858.089,"end":12882.327,"text":"查證的結果幾乎都是個人避傷這些是最大的問題點所以我今天要問你的就是說在未來你再持續推動根據《洗錢防制法》推動VASP這樣子的過程當中對於個人避傷那麼我們應該如何來管理你的看法呢謝謝委員確實這是社會關注的點那我們稱為個人避傷其實"},{"start":12887.745,"end":12915.475,"text":"每個人對個人避傷的定義其實不太一樣那我們既然稱為傷他就必須要做商業登記跟稅籍登記才叫做傷我們現在很多想像是個人的行為這其實上我們必須要加以釐清他既然要成為這個合法他必須要登記登記的前提是你要滿足我們對洗錢防制的要求剛剛比如委員指正的我們是說你要有一個標準的內控程序能夠完備"},{"start":12916.355,"end":12938.602,"text":"還就是對洗錢的整個程序你要做到這件事情我才可能讓你這樣所以剛剛講說我們對個人避傷確實我們就開始逐步納管剛剛提到了第三階段裡面就是希望透過立法的強制力來對它做一個管理你如果說你要做這件事情的話那你就好好的做好我們洗錢防制取得這個資格我們就讓你做大概是這個方式"},{"start":12939.608,"end":12963.817,"text":"因為這些詐騙的車手那麼利用這樣個人避傷那把錢交給他們用這個那同時一肝離骨啊還順便洗錢那前一陣子有一個這個檢察官他們的協會叫做建青協會那麼他們建青建改協會他們辦了這個研討會裡面啊"},{"start":12968.596,"end":12985.645,"text":"我去調他們說他們對這些詐欺犯罪他們的重視他們的一些看法裡面大概炮聲隆隆都在針對金管會尤其針對金管會完全不管個人避傷"},{"start":12987.179,"end":13005.946,"text":"那就我講的 你的前任在這三年裡面他覺得說 已經有依《洗錢防制法》那做了法尊聲明有25家來啦就以這25家交差了事但是就我剛剛講的個人避傷 完全"},{"start":13008.359,"end":13036.618,"text":"都無動於衷對他們一點都莫可奈何我是認為說這不能只是對於願意守法的業者來加高他登記的這些門檻我們應該對這些個人券商還要有更積極的作為我現在看到的作為是還不夠啦以及現在除了這個個人券商以外"},{"start":13037.708,"end":13066.496,"text":"我認為像境外的境外那更不用講你個人的都完全束手無策的那境外的呢境外的更不用說啦還有在我怕說這樣VASP這樣推行之後未來還會有一個問題啦就是說大家去把願意守法合法的公司把它法治化法尊說明之後"},{"start":13068.424,"end":13090.063,"text":"那這些是成立合法的交易場所囉那這些交易場所是不是就藉由他的合法性他是有牌的那他就把他整個牌子就賣掉啦就賣給這些詐騙集團洗錢集團不是嗎"},{"start":13091.383,"end":13117.902,"text":"所以我認為這一點我在你今天整篇的報告裡面我沒有看到你這個有什麼針對這一件事情有什麼這個防制方法所以我認為說如果未來一旦VASP這樣股權變動是不是我們要加一個要求股權變動一定要通報金管會而且要金管會同意"},{"start":13119.028,"end":13141.352,"text":"你看法呢?剛好委員指正的就是我們現在努力的方向第一個我們剛才講我們對《洗錢防制法》修正我們訂定一個執法登記的標準我們就把它放進來再來未來的專法的時候我們對這個機構的管理當然負責人還有股權的移轉當然是重點的重點重點的重點那有這種情形發生了嗎?"},{"start":13143.412,"end":13163.993,"text":"未來我們的專法裡面呢因為它是一定會走機構跟行為管理兩個監作剛剛委員講說假設有冒名然後就是轉售我想就像我們對很多的金融機構你的負責人還有你的股權也不是可以隨便移轉的好 那個時間暫停我請一下今天刑事局有來齁刑事局請熱處有請黃副局長"},{"start":13172.014,"end":13173.24,"text":"那個 欸 其實齁這個"},{"start":13176.741,"end":13201.597,"text":"其實現在打詐第一線就是警方啦其實警方是疲於奔命那他對於警方在打詐這麼積極的做其實我們社會各界都給予高度的評價我們認為現在打詐還這麼猖獗那問題不是在警方警方是有很認真的查可是我覺得對於我們員警已經很辛苦的員警"},{"start":13202.498,"end":13210.533,"text":"比方說在這個虛擬貨幣啦在這一些的交易上面我覺得很多員警他不知道說條碼就超商啊"},{"start":13214.742,"end":13240.431,"text":"這個超商上面這些條碼其實就是他們在交易虛擬貨幣這個不知道說這個用途是這樣所以導致當我們很多警方第一線的警員他不曉得的時候還必須再去針對這些條碼、字條去查證的結果這又多花了好幾天所以在這一個部分是不是要加強"},{"start":13241.351,"end":13247.607,"text":"對於我們第一線員警對他們的這一部分的教育這一個部分您看法呢?"},{"start":13249.616,"end":13275.609,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那有關這個超商裡面的一些金流洗金流的一些作為不僅包括這個還有包括遊戲點數也是那有一些這些購買這些虛擬資產的這個部分我們會再繼續的對員警來做教育我們也一直在講那個也會再做強化如果還有這種疏失的話我們會積極的再教育我們的同仁要多加注意這樣子"},{"start":13276.189,"end":13288.917,"text":"道高一尺魔高一丈永遠壞人他們的智慧永遠都是高於我們正道的人這一個部分你要一定要加強好不好時間在你你請回因為彭主委我剛講的那個人"},{"start":13295.695,"end":13324.842,"text":"畢商這一個部分你的這個加強管理是不是你能夠你具有幾個方法你在事後再給我做一些這部分的報告好不好可以這個個人畢商他們場外交易的這樣子的方式完全是現在我們看到的VASP這樣子的管理所沒辦法約束的而現在個人畢商這個才是真正兩大重點第一個"},{"start":13325.562,"end":13350.499,"text":"詐欺他們詐騙集團使用最通行的方式個人避傷第二個洗錢如果有這種犯罪集團要洗錢大概都他不會去找你已經納管好的那25家他一定是找個人避傷這我相信你我大家心裡都非常清楚好不好"},{"start":13350.999,"end":13353.663,"text":"加強對個人避傷的管理"},{"start":13368.323,"end":13388.412,"text":"我還以為你去熊本了謝謝昭偉各位委員、初列席、官員大家好其實昭偉很想去日本但是因為在會期當中我們要去看事辦事那我們等會議結束以後再來看看"},{"start":13389.599,"end":13405.264,"text":"實際的需求有需要的話我們再安排來召開因為這是研會所以我們還是照會裡的規定可以怎麼做就怎麼做是不是可以請主委邦主委好"},{"start":13411.072,"end":13440.572,"text":"其實今天講到虛擬貨幣等等的這個交易情況請問在美國方面有沒有發行虛擬貨幣的ETF的交易項目有,美國確實現在已經開始在做比特幣的ETF交易所以比特幣到底在台灣是一個合法的商品"},{"start":13441.292,"end":13442.693,"text":"現在比特幣在台灣交易是合法還是非法?"},{"start":13470.275,"end":13492.416,"text":"是合法還是非法?現在是合法,只要滿足我們洗錢防制的規定所以現在是合法,那請問未來會不會是非法?這個的話,我們目前沒辦法做這個預期,不過我們也是看國際上的情況今天是合法,那請問明年是不是合法?"},{"start":13494.308,"end":13513.946,"text":"其實這個不管商品工具它本身中性它如果說今天如果說它有產生什麼問題或怎麼樣那我們會隨時動態的來做這樣的調整所以主委這樣聽起來的話就是比特幣它是合法的那如果非法的是詐騙集團是犯法的才是犯法"},{"start":13515.119,"end":13539.365,"text":"違法的人才是犯法嗎?就是標的物本身它本身是中性但是它如果說今天拿來做不法的利用或不法的這個就有可能是涉犯違法的事情好的 很多的委員在討論剛剛主任您講說美國已經合法也公開發行ETF的這個項目那請問還有其他什麼地方是允許"},{"start":13541.566,"end":13553.631,"text":"虛擬貨幣是可以上市、買賣的還有哪一家?還有哪一個國家?我知道可能還有加拿大、澳洲"},{"start":13558.62,"end":13577.197,"text":"也有完全禁止的其實有很多人在想說那日本到底有沒有日本沒有可是在我們上次考察的時候我們看到整個東京附近的看板都有很多歡迎比特幣交易"},{"start":13578.584,"end":13593.751,"text":"比特幣交易是一個用ETF在公開市場上買賣又是另外一回事這是因為ETF我們是大部分的投資人有可能會買得到是所以很多的情況沒有深入去了解大家也不知道不過在"},{"start":13595.345,"end":13621.605,"text":"幾年前的考察當中其實考察每個委員會都有那在幾年的幾年前的東京的考察我發現銀行局的局長那時候是莊局長是莊局長對不對上次是邱局長的時候後來回來身為副主委回來寫了一大篇的報告大家覺得"},{"start":13622.458,"end":13649.927,"text":"非常有參考性那這個證券交易所也是特別有專門收集然後也做了很詳細的報告特別在這裡跟主委講我們證券交易所居然比我想像的還厲害跟日本的東京證券交易所往來非常的密切不然的話我們請是不是請臺灣證券交易所"},{"start":13656.251,"end":13679.725,"text":"林董事長你好委員好你今天照理說應該是要關心很多的新股的上市比如說今天來講今天有哪幾家是上市順利掛牌的今天來義有沒有來義來義有吧有有有對而且聽說是台商是不是"},{"start":13680.424,"end":13702.441,"text":"那今年的上市情況如何?掛牌數今年的上市情況都是去年的現在掛牌的都是去年申請的啦有沒有打標啊?有有有有打標齁?我看臺灣政經交易所這幾年齁好得不得了"},{"start":13703.499,"end":13714.162,"text":"去年EPS是幾塊?7.8今年會不會跟去年一樣?或是甚至會超過?會超過預期會超過以現在的熱絡情況那你看 主委 打仗缺錢喔臺灣政經院交易所很有錢"},{"start":13728.051,"end":13740.581,"text":"據說現在帳面上的現金應該有超過一百億以上吧是 超過有沒有兩百億以上有大概是F4裡面最強的我們雖然說強"},{"start":13744.973,"end":13769.589,"text":"搶的時候更應該要多多考量未來的變化增加每一個人的體質每一個都是驍勇、善戰剛剛舉這個例子台灣如果在我們彭主委他的未來的一個願景台灣是必須要跟國際接軌"},{"start":13771.263,"end":13793.858,"text":"外國能做的我們台灣也必須要有這個能力可以做啊怎麼樣來取代香港怎麼樣來取代新加坡甚至日本請問日本有沒有發行虛擬貨幣相關的ETF沒有沒有現在還沒有現在還沒有那日本的比特幣他們是怎麼交易的"},{"start":13800.348,"end":13810.031,"text":"臺灣是在抄7-11也可以買得到吧?是不是?還是萊爾富?他的通路究竟是在哪裡?"},{"start":13814.783,"end":13836.183,"text":"因為我們交易所現在還沒有參與這個業務的規劃也多了解一下啦因為做最好的準備迎接任何的挑戰希望進退我們都有一個分寸有一個準備好謝謝那請問彭主委好了謝謝"},{"start":13838.084,"end":13848.083,"text":"因為台灣政經教育所最近探權的事也比較忙我們改天再好好來談這個事因為這個迫在眉睫探權的問題一定會討論到"},{"start":13850.151,"end":13879.711,"text":"主委現在台灣現存的交易通路是用什麼樣的方式在做交易現在台灣也有交易所剛剛我們提到我們現在VASP它裡面的這些的我們做洗房登記的業者有交易所也有剛剛講的時候比如說ATM也有實體的店面還有像我們的托管的服務商這些都是我們很多種類型剛剛講我們的交易所其實上就可以在上面做交易"},{"start":13885.375,"end":13897.285,"text":"請問我們的態度歡不歡迎國外的企業來台灣設立交易所我們現在的話就是所有的外國一定要落地要適用我們相同的標準"},{"start":13899.52,"end":13922.592,"text":"所以原則是不排斥囉?對,我們法規是有這樣的一個設計那如果全世界最大的也來台灣設立據點,各位支不支持?這個我們就來看,因為那個條件我們是一致的,我們就會進行來按照我們的現在原則來審核有沒有負責人他的最終收益人以及國籍的考量?"},{"start":13923.679,"end":13944.065,"text":"這部分的話我們可不可以請我們現在那個審核的單位可不可以來做個說明一下謝謝報告我們現在因為個案來送進的時候我們就會看他的背景是誰如果是香港人可不可以我想因為沒有國籍上的判斷那如果有需要的話我們會請陸委會來表示意見是那如果像日本人也可以嗎"},{"start":13945.797,"end":13961.333,"text":"因為如果你是外國的避傷的話當然他可能是外國人但是他因為要台灣落地的時候我們就要審查他的因為現在大家覺得大陸有時候一講到大陸就是先怕三分如果是大陸人士來申請可不可以"},{"start":13961.493,"end":13961.673,"text":"主委就是"},{"start":13987.87,"end":14001.662,"text":"在你的願景當中因為你剛剛來那過兩年以後你希望看到台灣的整個金融發展會呈現怎麼樣的面貌"},{"start":14002.995,"end":14023.992,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個面貌每個人都有想像我希望就是說我們台灣金融市場在持續穩定的基礎上面能夠有更大的發揮的空間就是說我們落實我們安全與這個發展並進的金融市場如果開放跟保守你會選擇哪一個"},{"start":14025.765,"end":14053.933,"text":"我覺得在很多安全上面我們必須保守謹慎但是對於未來新的機會以及發展我們必須要大膽的設想但是還是要回到一個安全的基礎上我記得過去那個沙盒的部分積極的要推動結果沙盒通過到現在剩下哪一家還在做的現在沙盒確實遇到瓶頸但是我們現在會強化在我們的事辦的部分我們未來會推出新的辦法希望這個"},{"start":14056.164,"end":14056.544,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請主委"},{"start":14083.752,"end":14110.998,"text":"委員好彭主委好彭主委我今天想要請教主委因為現在詐騙的手段日新月異我們也看到有關第三方支付這個部分其實在去年一場基層檢察官的研討會當中就有檢察官在大力的砲轟說偵辦第三方支付洗錢案"},{"start":14111.778,"end":14134.034,"text":"那因為我們這個金管會針對這個第三方支付的這個部分其實好像也沒有什麼管理啦就是針對在那個這個日均代理收付營業額20億以下的這個業者不用比照金融機關來監管所以造成說這個第三方支付成為這個詐騙的溫床"},{"start":14136.616,"end":14149.423,"text":"所以我想請教彭主委未來針對我們這個第三方支付你們要怎麼去做管理確實喔就是我們在當時在做我們有兩個就是一個電子支付一個是第三方支付"},{"start":14150.168,"end":14171.901,"text":"那金管會是對一個金融機構進行管理所以假設第三方支付它的型態非常的多而且它是我們一般商業的模式所以我們採用是一個量能的管理當你達到一定量以後它的影響力達到一定程度以後我們就納入電子支付的管理那現在第三方支付是由速發部在進行管理是所以到底有沒有在管啊"},{"start":14172.601,"end":14173.322,"text":"虛擬賬戶一天可以跟銀行申請數十萬筆的虛擬賬戶"},{"start":14193.603,"end":14208.913,"text":"如果說一般的民眾他受騙了報案也許在第一時間可以將這個虛擬賬號給阻斷可能就是先凍結可是這個詐騙集團他也許他有幾十萬個或者是這個好幾萬個這個虛擬賬號那這樣子你們怎麼處理"},{"start":14213.089,"end":14227.168,"text":"我們現在對虛擬帳號因為我們也注意到了就是它是一個常常會作為利用不法的這個規定所以我們對這個要開設虛擬帳號我們其實也現在也沒那麼簡單所以我們會有一定的規定那細節我可以請銀行局局長跟您說明"},{"start":14232.32,"end":14248.471,"text":"第三方支付因為他常需要虛擬帳號那其實第三方支付數位部這邊也有一些洗錢防制的規範所以第一個他要去跟數法部那邊先做量能登記如果他沒有做量能登錄的時候他再跟銀行開戶的時候銀行會拒絕他開戶"},{"start":14252.133,"end":14276.617,"text":"那針對已經是銀行客戶的時候銀行他也會去看說他有沒有跟速發部做量能登錄如果他沒有跟速發部做量能登錄的話這個虛擬帳號的服務銀行會停止好 那我想問一下就是說從你們這樣子的一個作為之後那這個詐騙的數量你們自己有去統計嗎就是透過這個第三方支付或是虛擬帳號這個被詐騙的"},{"start":14280.518,"end":14298.865,"text":"這個數量有減少嗎?好像也沒有欸報委員因為整個第三方支付如果他的主管機關是速發部那我們是覺得因為透過這樣子的虛擬帳號的管理的時候其實是可以適度的降低啦"},{"start":14300.107,"end":14320.232,"text":"所以你們覺得說是有效的降低這個詐騙可是真的我希望說主委針對這部分可能需要再跟也許你們跟訴發部這邊也要有一些溝通就是說我們主委這邊我們可能需要"},{"start":14321.152,"end":14347.121,"text":"有效的去監管那也需要抒發部這邊來協助另外我看到就是說其實在這幾年當中尤其警政署也有特別統計就是說在六都之外詐騙發生數最高的縣市依序是彰化縣跟雲林縣在這幾年當中就是說有一些長輩他可能連自己的退休金全部都投下去"},{"start":14349.202,"end":14365.697,"text":"這個投資詐騙也好或者是虛擬帳號的這樣子一個就被轉出去了甚至我在最近聽到一個老師他把他所有畢生的積蓄、退休金全部都投資在這個投資就是網路投資的這個網路"},{"start":14367.058,"end":14390.384,"text":"當中然後就一下子個好幾百萬就轉出去了所以我是希望就是說金管會針對這個第三方支付虛擬帳號這部分我覺得應該要再更加的嚴格那另外我覺得說金管會不論是跟速發部也好或者是跟這個警政單位我覺得應該大家都可以有一些配合啦因為真的我們看到"},{"start":14391.564,"end":14408.734,"text":"詐騙真的是無所不在而且真的是這個手段真的是越來越新我上一次在那個內政委員會就有特別提到用名人來在網路上面就是投資投資詐騙的這個手段讓一般的民眾會覺得說這個名人也許就是張忠謀也許是謝金河"},{"start":14413.216,"end":14436.181,"text":"所以這樣子我覺得說金管會在這個第三方支付或者是虛擬賬號我覺得如果說可以再嚴格一點的話也許可以阻斷源頭是是我們會來努力就是因為這這個一項就是我們在在做主柵工作上的重點對我們會來那個委員的指正我們會來請請同仁繼續努力好好謝謝好謝謝黃秀芳委員的諮詢請借用請邱志維委員諮詢"},{"start":14452.216,"end":14477.684,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請金管會彭主委有請彭主委委員好主委你好所以按照你今天的報告我來幾個問題請教是說你們分階段來針對這個VASP的這個做一些的管理第一階段大概已經完成了嗎現在在進行中在進行當中對所以第一階段目前就是"},{"start":14478.732,"end":14496.977,"text":"你的辦法已經發布了對現況做一些的盤點那第二階段大概什麼時候開始啟動工會明天成立明天成立你那工會的規模大概有多少現在就是25個會員25個強制入會嗎應該都要參加"},{"start":14503.51,"end":14530.337,"text":"就是說你現在有在執行這個業務或者執行相關的這個行為者他會強制入會?對,業必歸會,他應該成立商業工會他們就要加入好,那這個他有一個自律規範嗎?成立以後就請他們加速的訂定自律規範那這自律規範是他們定的還是你們給他知道的?我們會共同來努力好"},{"start":14531.317,"end":14548.344,"text":"所以在未來第三階段你要進行差異化管理差異化管理的主要是說它的經營的業務範圍不同它的交易型態對那如果對於個人的避傷"},{"start":14551.238,"end":14567.272,"text":"個人避傷的定義是什麼個人避傷就等於說我們是一個事業或人員那個人避傷來講的話他本身是個商他就要做商業登記跟稅籍登記這樣的一個人他才可以從事我們的那個人避傷的定義你有明確化嗎"},{"start":14571.876,"end":14595.572,"text":"這個東西會有個執法因為未來這個 假設這個條文修正以後他有一個授權執法會來定這個標準是我們金管會來定金管會的哪一個局處來定正期局正期局來定那現在說這個他目前的你們現在這個辦法裡面他對於這個業者定義說以國內設立登記者為限"},{"start":14599.588,"end":14619.88,"text":"那如果是在國內登記呢?他所有的跨境他要在國內落地按照我們的規定來辦理所以只要在國內登記的他就必須要按照相同的規定包括法尊的醫務等等吻合我們所有洗房跟反滋恐的要求那如果他境外未登記然後又實際從事業務"},{"start":14622.796,"end":14649.687,"text":"那你要怎麼去監管它?這個確實剛剛有委員提到因為這個網路無國界跨境上面的就是我們假如它不在境內那境外的難管無遠無界是的這個確實是全世界各國監理官的挑戰但是這個未來可能要透過跨國界的合作來解決這個問題跨國你要跟每一個國家去合作至少我們對境內的東西一定要"},{"start":14650.834,"end":14655.3,"text":"要把它做好我們能不能推論它境外它就是規避一些相關的責任嘛"},{"start":14657.065,"end":14683.142,"text":"境外的話就是要有國人原因而且國人的風險也大嘛因為他沒有辦法被納管對 這個確實是讓我們很多境外金融所以很多詐騙就從此產生這我們盡量來防止如果你加入工會你又是在國內登記 對不對那當然你是納管納管就沒有問題你有任何不法行為一定遭受這個主管金管嚴厲的制裁不管是這個法務部或者金管會"},{"start":14684.002,"end":14702.598,"text":"但如果有機會我們就好像似乎拿他沒轍這個是全世界面臨的問題比如說我今天一個人他跑去美國網站買他的保險那確實是在這個我們的本國法是沒辦法禁止國恩做但是我們會不斷的宣導說你這不受本國的相關保護的規定而且你成本會很高"},{"start":14704.38,"end":14730.497,"text":"國內納管是小那境外的這個取締或者是怎麼樣防避防止在境外的詐騙這個才是重點這個是我們整體的打詐的裡面要注意至少比如民眾的試詐還有他的防詐知識的提升對於風險意識的提高這個都是我們未來要努力的方向所以第三階段什麼時候會開始啟動呢第三階段其實我們現在的法案已經送進了立法院"},{"start":14731.454,"end":14759.952,"text":"其實不要分階段就是同時進行是但是就是說因為這要我還以為你們有這個時間序的那第1階段你要針對這個虛擬資產管理專法來立一個法是的那這個專法裡面有沒有包括對境外的管制者總統這個我們會考慮到國際的趨勢我們在整個專案研究裡面會把比如說主體的要求以下行為的規範這些東西我們都會考慮到這個專法你們現在委外要研究其他國家的做法嘛"},{"start":14760.852,"end":14780.927,"text":"目標你這個專法什麼時候可以出來我們剛才那個時程預計就是說我們希望年底我們內部有個草案出來可以公告可以預告收集意見我們的時程是預定到明年的六月的時候能夠報行政院明年六月另外一個小小提醒深層式的AI金融紛爭的時候證據保全的問題那這個金融機構這個可能問銀行局"},{"start":14788.53,"end":14789.953,"text":"金融機構如何做到證據保全?"},{"start":14800.549,"end":14824.28,"text":"報告委員我們前一陣子有做過一次調查目前對於採行深層次AI來做各式業務程序的管理上面他們其實是比較保守的那未來會成為一個趨勢嗎對那將來如果他們會運用的時候我想基本上他們一定先希望是不要涉及到客戶的資訊可能是內部流程很難避免吧"},{"start":14825.171,"end":14852.146,"text":"你未來越發展的話很難避免吧對那這邊因為我們也有一個生成會有一個AI的一個指引那所以到時候各個金融機構在採用這樣的技術的時候也會依照那樣的指引來辦理那順便問一下那個新欽案方案所產生的弊端包括這個人頭戶包租混淆問題我想這個銀行局也應該了解那待會的管理這是銀行局的業務還是檢察局的業務那個主委"},{"start":14855.307,"end":14873.414,"text":"如果是強化新清安方的成為不要讓他成為這個房價炒作的一個幫兇啊新清安的部分呢假設是銀行的行為當然是金管會但是他整個政策應該是財政部這邊主政那如果是貸貨管理這是財政部要針對他所屬的銀行"},{"start":14874.614,"end":14891.647,"text":"就是我們從一個風險角度帶貨管理這是我們我們也要關注的點所以是銀行局還是檢察局銀行局是銀行局對這部分如果銀行局介入的強度應該會比較強吧他有他一定的SOP啦這部分其實銀行在這個發銀行聽到銀行局就害怕了"},{"start":14893.8,"end":14907.045,"text":"他有5P、KYC、代後管理都是他們標準的程序我們現在討論是未來可能發生的問題但是未來可能發生的問題遲早都會發生所以我們應該在這個主管機關應該是未籌摩、提早因應謝謝主委、謝謝委員"},{"start":14916.855,"end":14944.264,"text":"謝謝邱志文委員的質詢接著我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在接著我們請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員也確認不在好今日我們登記發言委員均已達選完畢本次的會議做如下的決定"},{"start":14946.018,"end":14965.263,"text":"第一,報告及詢答完畢二,委員的質詢,為其答覆或補充資訊,請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另有要求其限則,從其所定"},{"start":14966.323,"end":14992.325,"text":"委員楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會予以書面答覆第四點本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好 散會不客氣"}]}},{"id":"153897","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153897","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819452c642914a0da6f25a148732a468ab6dc42bf70e43d78a92b94a1fe9365f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:52:03 - 12:03:35","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:52:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:03:35+08:00","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時52分）有請部長跟警政署。"],["主席：部長跟警政署，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：早安，今天我想要針對青少年的部分，跟部長和大家做一個討論。現在雖然很多的數字顯示，不管從警政署或是校安通報的數字，好像青少年使用毒品的人口都在下降。但是我其實也有看到一個107年食藥署的全國物質使用調查，第一個他說我們現在使用的型態非常多元，所以這個是一個問題。第二個問題是大多數使用的地方，都在同學或朋友家裡。也就是說，它不是少安通報會統計到的校園，也不是青春專案會掃蕩到的KTV、網咖、夜店，都不是。那這個家內使用的數字，我們現在是有掌握的嗎？我想要了解這個部分，因為我們這樣子要怎麼去說使用的人口是下降的？搞不好他是在家裡，我們根本都沒有看到、沒有捕獲到。所以我想要知道，我們怎麼去掌握這些家內使用的狀態？"],["吳司長林輝：說明一下，目前教育部掌握到有關涉毒的學生人數，除了一部分是由警方查獲的以外，有另外一部分是經由學校特定學生提報做尿篩，經過檢驗之後發現是陽性的，而列入春暉輔導的個案。那有少部分的學生是因為自己感到困擾，主動向師長求助，我們列入輔導的個案。"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在看起來好像都是學生有覺察，或是我們發現學生有異狀，然後我們邀請他來做。我想要知道，我們如何去判斷學生有異狀這件事情？因為我看到我們的報告裡面都一直講我們有掌握這些高風險的，我們是有一些篩選機制讓老師們有意識，或是讓同學有意識，我們有做這塊的宣導是嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：如果學生有涉毒的情況，可能會出現精神狀態不佳，譬如倦怠或情緒高漲這樣異常的狀況。或者是出現異常的，譬如說出手突然變得很闊綽之類的，這些異常的狀況都很有可能是，學校會把他提報為特定學生。另外就是有一部分的學生，可能是中離、中輟，或者休學之後返校復學，這些個案我們也都會提報為特定學生進行尿篩。"],["張委員雅琳：那這個尿篩的頻率是？"],["吳司長林輝：尿篩的部分分成兩種，一種就是他如果是中離、中輟、休學，在他回學校的時候就做處理。如果不是這種情況，是屬於一般的狀況，就是當學生發現異常的時候，就可以來做處理。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，接下來我們就直接跳到第二個問題，就是新型態的毒品其實越來越多元，像這個喵喵，三年內奪去了205命。我想要知道，我們現在做的這些尿篩、尿檢，是新型態的毒品都能夠掌握得到嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：我們目前查獲的個案當中，還包括尿篩查獲個案，統計前五大當中，像新型毒品是混合型的……"],["張委員雅琳：對，是。"],["吳司長林輝：或者彩虹菸，這個其實都在前五排名之內，所以其實對這樣的新型態的部分，我們在查獲的個案是有發現的，而且比例不低。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，了解，那這部分我肯定教育部的努力啦！再來我有一個問題，就是我們說人數都在下降，可是我發現一個數字很奇怪，現在才到四月，以前一整年國小大概2到4案，可是現在一月到四月，才四個月已經3案。如果這樣去推算，我們今年的人數可能就會超過過去的新高，到底發生了什麼事？國小端我們的掌握是什麼？"],["吳司長林輝：剛才提過，其實年紀比較小的小朋友，大部分都是好奇誤用的多，很多時候可能是來自於同儕，或者所認識的其他成年人，提供給他嘗試使用的。因為剛提到現在新型毒品很厲害，是因為它混合成包括咖啡包、奶茶包……"],["張委員雅琳：同意，那我們現在在國小的作為是什麼？因為這個數字這樣看起來是非常不樂觀耶！"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，我們現在國小階段最主要的採措是入班宣導，每一個班都要有春暉志工或輔導老師進去宣導。會教小朋友辨識剛才講的奶茶包、咖啡包，甚至郵票、軟糖都有可能是，所以不要吃任何陌生人提供給他，或者不是我們所熟悉的食品、東西，否則就有可能誤食。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我想沒有陌生人啦！大部分都是同學、朋友、認識的人對吧？"],["吳司長林輝：是，但……"],["張委員雅琳：因為大多數都是透過朋友跟同學，就是你剛講的家人提供的嘛！那我們這些宣導的場次有在增加嗎？因為面臨今年這樣的狀況。"],["吳司長林輝：我們現在國小跟國中的部分，其實入班宣導的比例都有達到100%。我們為了確定成效，其實我們有做學生的抽樣問卷調查，了解學生是不是有接獲毒品造成的危害等等的資訊。"],["張委員雅琳：那這些資訊是不是可以回頭提供給我？"],["吳司長林輝：好，其實我們每年都有定期調查，百分比都有在提高，以目前最近一次的調查來講，大概有達到95%，還有5%學生沒有收到這樣的訊息，我們會繼續努力。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我就想說接下來每一季如果有做這個小學濫用統計的話，都提到我辦公室，我想要知道這個趨勢有沒有因為我們有所作為而下降。再來就是因為其實大多數使用的地點都在同學家，八成的小朋友拿到毒品都是透過朋友，我們應該如何介入這些用毒青少年的同儕網路？我先講這個，我們現在雖然有做入班宣導，但我只是在思考一件事情，提供給教育部來做參考。我們是不是可以建立一個匿名通報的機制？因為其實我知道小朋友彼此都會說，我知道哪一班有這件事情，那我們是不是有一個這樣的機制可以使用？","再來就是因為是朋友，可是我們現在所提供的這些宣導單張裡面，我們都是跟他講勇於拒絕，不要輕易嘗試。可是朋友之間就會說：「啊你試一下啦！沒關係啦！」對於這樣子的話術，我們現在提供的話術，根本沒有辦法幫助他可以拒絕。是不是可以找兒少代表一起來討論，我們現在這些宣傳單張，要怎麼樣才可以真正貼近他們的環境，讓他們可以真的遠離毒害，這個事情可不可以做得到，在找兒少代表來討論的部分？"],["吳司長林輝：我們會努力邀請兒少代表來做參與討論，跟委員報告，其實我們過去有考慮到，如何讓學生關注這個議題，他們自己來討論如何來拒絕毒品，所以我們其實也有辦理微電影的競賽……"],["張委員雅琳：我知道。"],["吳司長林輝：就是希望學生他們參與……"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["吳司長林輝：他們會找他們有興趣的題目跟情境。"],["張委員雅琳：我同意、我懂，可是問題是我們這些宣傳單張，是鋪天蓋地送到學校裡，好不好？我們既然要做，我們就讓這個東西真的實質有效。我們最近大概是什麼時候會開跟兒少代表相關的一些會議呢？最近可以什麼時候？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，我們盡快來邀請，我們過去在處理的時候，比較沒有特別邀請兒少代表來討論。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個部分就麻煩了，我希望我們可以找兒少一起來討論。再來就是說，因為其實還有講，當他今天用藥的時候，除了學校要注意之外，另外一個就是家庭。我也知道，教育部其實也有做一些相關的家庭教育中心，或是一些社區的活動。這些場次跟經費，是不是都可以會後提供給我，讓我瞭解一下？還是你們現在已經有確切的一些場次跟數據，現在有嗎？舉辦多少場次？"],["吳司長林輝：現在手上沒有這個數據。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，會後提供給我。第一個是協助他不要進入毒害領域，第二個就是當他離開之後，我們要怎麼讓家庭可以協助他，因為這是避免他再犯的。所以這個施用毒品者再犯防止推進計畫，我目前只有看到109年欸！有沒有更新的數據啊？這個數據到底是誰可以提供給我？"],["吳司長林輝：這個我們手上有。"],["張委員雅琳：你們手上有嗎？是教育部？"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["張委員雅琳：那為什麼一直都沒有更新啊？109年到現在已經也4年了欸！"],["吳司長林輝：對，跟委員報告，抱歉我們來清查，我們手上都有這個數據。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那就麻煩，因為這個其實裡面就可以看出來，在學校的，我們可以透過學校的系統去影響他，非在學的部分，我們只能夠透過社區跟家庭……"],["吳司長林輝：我們目前非在學的部分，會由縣市政府的少輔會，會同社會局跟教育局，共同來協助輔導。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是因為我現在看起來，6個月再通報跟6到12個月再通報的數字，其實在非在學的部分都是增加的啦！這個是由教育部提供給我的相關數據嘛！","抱歉，最後一題把握時間，我們現在校安通報的霸凌數據是12.3%，可是根據聯合國全世界校園霸凌的調查報告，其實全世界是30.3%。除了聯合國之外，我們在2019年臺灣傳播調查資料庫的調查也有指出，國小生、國中生、高中生被霸凌的比率分別是41.46%、31.97%、15.16%。或者是最近兒福每一年都會做這些數字，數字都遠高於我們教育部提供的數字，我想知道這個落差是什麼？","我不曉得部長了不了解，因為我知道，以前在開兒少事故委員會的時候，兒少代表就說了，我們在做這些校園霸凌的問卷調查，是由後往前收，或者是都收到老師那邊，沒有人敢真實的填寫，所以這是一個很大的問題。他們也一直不停的提出來，是不是可以透過網路的方式來做調查，他們才能夠真實的說出來。這個部分我們到底可不可以去做什麼樣的改善，讓真實的數據可以被呈現呢？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員說明，我想我們的比率只有12.3%，跟其他國家不一樣，很可能是計算的基礎不一樣。因為我們現在目前的這個基礎，是用通報的當作分母，以查證確認成立的案件當分子。其他的部分可能不是，他可能是透過類似像問卷調查，然後從抽樣當中去發現。另外就是認定的期程是有關係的，像我們的校園問卷是以上個學期發生的事情，以半年內是不是有發生的感受。那其他國家可能不是，他可能是過去有的經驗，這個調查結果就會造成不一樣的情況。至於校園問卷可能的問題，我們現在正在檢討改善當中，我們會再跟委員做報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，抱歉我再用30秒就好，因為其實我們是有校園霸凌現況調查，在你112年的預算書有這些計畫，但是我完全找不到這一個計畫的內容，是不是也可以會後提供給我？再來就是說，我們其實有一個霸凌通報的專線，這支通報專線的成效如何？成案率、通報率是多少？是不是也可以會後都提供數字到我辦公室？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，謝謝，請各位回座。","接下來我們處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案三案，現在請宣讀。","一、","有鑑於今年適逢偏鄉小校認定3年1次檢討年，因此針對現行中央對偏鄉學校認定採「總量管制」限額，導致出現像新北市原本有20所學校是偏遠小學，但受限於中央給新北市額度只有45所，只好改列非山非市，兩者相關補助經費出現嚴重落差，造成偏鄉小校面臨少子化與資源不足多重困境難以翻身，爰此提案要求教育部對於「偏遠地區學校分級及認定標準」依各校交通、文化、生活機能、數位環境及社會經濟條件等項目計算模糊標準予以檢討，並對各地方政府今年爭取小校符合偏遠學校標準者，應依照偏遠小校實際需求採取增額錄取。","提案人：洪孟楷　　柯志恩　　葛如鈞　　","二、","案由：因台東女中操場長久以來均為紅土跑道，每逢東北季風，都造成大量沙塵，不僅影響學生上課品質，亦威脅學生健康，為改善台東女中整體教學品質，降低風吹塵揚，爰提案要求教育部一個月內邀集相關單位進行會勘並協助台東女中擬具相關計畫送教育部申請補助。","提案人：黃建賓　　葛如鈞　　洪孟楷　　柯志恩　　","三、","案由：近日因台東高中游泳池割傷學生腳底板的問題引發廣泛討論，還成為全國頭條，校方則回應，游泳池因使用地下水，水質偏硬，導致池底石灰質沉澱，過去已有學生因此割傷腳底，所以建議學生游泳課要穿襪子。台東高中體育組曾邀請維修廠商場勘，建議更換過濾器並增設淨水塔、軟水器等設備，但所需經費高達800萬元，卻未能獲得體育署補助，整建計畫因而擱置，為避免台東高中學生著襪上游泳課，並維護學生受教權益，爰要求教育部於一周內邀集相關單位進行會勘並協助台東高中擬具相關計畫送教育部申請補助。","提案人：黃建賓　　洪孟楷　　葛如鈞　　柯志恩"],["主席：先從第一案開始處理，第一案的提案委員不在，教育部的看法？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟主席報告，我們有跟洪委員報告，就是第一案後面能不能再加一個「評估」，即倒數第二句的最後一段「應依照偏遠小校」改為「應評估依照偏遠小校」，然後到最後一段加上「之可行性」，即改為「增額錄取之可行性」。"],["主席：那洪委員同意？"],["鄭部長英耀：同意。"],["主席：好，修正文字通過，謝謝。","第二案，第二案的提案委員黃建賓有沒有意見？"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席！就像我們提案案由所寫的，我們希望能夠改善臺東女中操場的跑道問題。"],["主席：你的提案還真的是滿簡單的，你只是要去看一看就好是嗎？OK！教育部？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們配合辦理。"],["主席：配合辦理，我們照案通過。","第三案。"],["黃委員建賓：其實第二案和第三案都一樣，都是要編列預算，臺東高中這個應該也是有上頭版新聞。"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員關心！事實上，下午我們部裡面會有同仁去看，所以我們也配合辦理。"],["主席：不過部長和體育署還是請考量，讓學生穿襪子游泳實在是，拜託！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟主席報告，當時他們申請時，現況並沒有描述清楚。"],["主席：沒問題，你們就是配合辦理就對了，非常感謝，謝謝！3案皆已處理完畢。","接下來繼續進行我們的質詢。請林德福委員，時間4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.16534375,"end":5.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.624718750000001,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.265968750000003,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.79596875,"end":53.727218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.929718750000006,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.58346875,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.75596875,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.52659375,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.55471875,"end":80.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.21659375,"end":104.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.94284375000001,"end":110.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.57909375000001,"end":127.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.77471875,"end":141.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.00034375,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.03596875000002,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.14096875,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.03534375,"end":175.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.16409375,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.81784375,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.33909375000002,"end":192.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.18221875,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.28221875000003,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.33284375000002,"end":201.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.87284375000002,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.88971875000001,"end":201.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.58971875,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.30596875,"end":239.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.49971875000003,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":260.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.70346875,"end":263.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.90534375000004,"end":275.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.13659375000003,"end":269.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.73471875,"end":277.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.19034375,"end":287.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.03659375,"end":290.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.87159375000005,"end":293.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.09471875,"end":303.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.12846875,"end":294.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.66784375000003,"end":299.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.75159375000004,"end":314.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.42909375,"end":314.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.54721875,"end":314.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.61471875,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.66534375000003,"end":314.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.88846875,"end":317.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.63096875,"end":320.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.55909375000005,"end":320.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.35221875,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.38596875,"end":320.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.57159375000003,"end":331.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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我們每年都有定期調查其實那個百分比都有在提高以目前最近一次的調查來講大概有達到95%還有5%的學生是沒有收到這樣的訊息的"},{"start":331.938,"end":351.905,"text":"接下來每一季如果有做這個小學的濫用統計的話都提到我辦公室我想要知道這個趨勢有沒有因為我們有所作為而有下降那再來就是說因為其實大多數使用的都在同學家大八成的小朋友拿到毒品都是透過朋友我們應該如何介入這些用毒青少年的同儕網路"},{"start":353.605,"end":373.459,"text":"我先講這個就是說我們現在雖然有做陸班選導但我只是在思考一件事情那我就提供給教育部來做參考我們是不是可以建立一個匿名通報的機制因為其實我知道小朋友彼此都會說欸我知道哪一班有這件事情那我們是不是有個這樣的機制可以來做使用第二個再來就是說因為是朋友可是我們現在所"},{"start":374.159,"end":400.249,"text":"提供的這些宣導單章裡面我們都是跟他講勇於拒絕不要輕易嘗試可是朋友之間就會說啊你試一下啦沒關係啦這樣子的話術我們先提供這個話術根本沒有幫助他可以拒絕是不是可以找兒少代表一起來討論我們現在這些宣傳單章要怎麼樣才可以真正的貼近他們的環境讓他們可以真的遠離毒害這件事情可不可以做得到我們在兒少代表的部分來討論"},{"start":403.607,"end":404.328,"text":"我同意．我懂"},{"start":422.028,"end":423.108,"text":"我們過去在處理的時候比較沒有特別邀請耳哨代表來討論"},{"start":440.394,"end":440.594,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":471.54,"end":471.822,"text":"舉舉辦多少場次?"},{"start":473.377,"end":500.475,"text":"跟委員現在手上沒有這個資訊好沒關係那會後提供給我齁因為其實這個跟如何第一個協助他不要進入這個毒害的領域第二個就是當他離開之後我們要怎麼樣子讓家庭可以協助他因為這是避免他再犯的齁所以再來這個施用毒品再犯防治統治的計畫我目前只有看到109年內有沒有更新的數據啊這個數據到底是誰可以提供給我"},{"start":502.942,"end":516.813,"text":"這個我們手上有你們手上有嗎 是教育部那為什麼一直都沒有更新啊已經是2010 109年到現在已經也4年了欸對 跟文法 抱歉我們來清查看我們手上都有這個數據"},{"start":518.561,"end":521.162,"text":"我們目前非在學的部分會由縣市政府的少府會會同社會局跟教育局共同來協助輔導"},{"start":536.53,"end":549.518,"text":"對,但是因為我現在看起來的那個因為6個月在通報跟6到12個月在通報的數字其實在非在學的部分都是在增加的啦所以這個是由教育部來提供給我相關的數據嘛那最後一題把握時間"},{"start":555.069,"end":569.489,"text":"我們現在在校安通報的霸凌數據上面我們是12.3%可是因為根據聯合國全世界校園霸凌的調查報告其實全世界是30.3%那不管是不是除了聯合國之外"},{"start":570.891,"end":594.962,"text":"我們在2019年台灣傳播調查資料庫的調查也有指出國小生、國中生、高中生被霸凌的比率分別是41.46%、31.97%、15.16%包含或是最近額幅每一年都會做這個數字數字都遠高於我們教育部提供的數字我想知道這個落差是什麼是我們沒有"},{"start":596.562,"end":622.552,"text":"我不曉得部長了不了解啦就是說因為我知道以前在開這個兒少事故委員會的時候兒少代表就說啦我們在做這些校園暴霸凌的這些問卷調查由後往前收或是都收到老師那邊沒有人敢真實的填寫所以這是一個很大的問題那他們也一直不停的提出來是不是可以透過網路的方式來做調查他們才能夠真實的說出來那這個部分我們到底是不是可以去做什麼樣子的改善讓真實的數據可以被呈現呢"},{"start":624.448,"end":652.735,"text":"跟委員說明我想我們的比例只有12.3跟其他國家不一樣很可能是計算的基礎不一樣因為我們現在目前的這個基礎是用通報的當作分母以查證確認成立的案件當分子那其他的這個部分可能並不是他可能是透過類似像問卷調查然後從抽樣當中去發現然後另外就是認定的期程是有關係的像我們的校園生物卷是以上個學期發生的事情以半年內是不是有發生的感受"},{"start":652.995,"end":656.297,"text":"其實我們是有校園霸凌現況調查在您的112年的預算書有這些計畫但是我完全找不到這個計畫的內容"},{"start":676.67,"end":676.81,"text":"獲得獎金"}]}},{"id":"153896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819ca1401285619408f25a148732a468ab6dc42bf70e43d78a97e067b1efe2647ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:40:21 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01.697,"text":"現在很多的醫學都在證明老人不是沒有用的像這個華盛頓的醫學裡面他研究說首領的大腦左右半球的互動變得更和諧他的創意跟智能持續在躍進創作力可能比年輕人更強通常會覺得年紀大沒有創意但是這裡說創作力可能更強"},{"start":403.258,"end":417.847,"text":"第二點是首領大腦雖然不如年輕的時候快但是靈活性會提升而且能夠做出正確的決定而且比較少受到負面情緒的影響人類的智力活動高峰出現在60到80歲之間那我覺得"},{"start":421.912,"end":434.482,"text":"我們通常我就要翻轉這個觀念就覺得很多人包括自己就覺得60歲老沒好所以這個教育部要教育他們你很棒要給他加油"},{"start":437.623,"end":454.185,"text":"首先就是這個要翻轉這個啦我看到現在真的很多的都是引法族思維要把它翻轉到壯世代的思維那完全不一樣這兩個是完全不同的設定那這教育部非常重要的教育工作"},{"start":455.466,"end":478.663,"text":"其實他們人生追求不一樣,過去的人就搶人生那到了第三人生,第三人生在追求什麼首先要建立他的哲學基礎我們人類的知識只有到第二人生而已第三人生是一片空白那教育在這方面的研究在追求自我實現那有關這個我想教育部的專家非常多要來致力追求這個"},{"start":481.534,"end":496.21,"text":"首先在做這個之前不要憑空想像要針對壯世代的需求來做調查其實我們在民間已經也在進行這個工作很多了我有提出一個80項需求大調查"},{"start":497.531,"end":521.139,"text":"這目前在進行中當然我們民間的力量很有限像教育部如果有的話可以啦你們也要更專注的研究以後瞭解他們不然你憑空想像都是因法族的需求所以這一個的調查我在進行這個像工商司法提出來它是可以捲起千堆血它不是我們的負擔跟依賴"},{"start":523.377,"end":547.805,"text":"第二個中間的中段當中就是事辦事辦當中目前的回覆裡面有提出社區大學、樂嶺大學、空中大學還有面臨轉型挑戰的大專院校優先徵詢我覺得這個一定要跳脫這種樂嶺大學、社區大學這種概念不是把他們的課程改良一下就好了因為它是全然不同的"},{"start":548.465,"end":569.822,"text":"所以我倒是會覺得這些面臨轉型的這些大學不要輔導待退而能夠積極的轉型他來做這個第三人生大學給他一條生路那像現在也可以看得出來因為少子化目前已經用12所那預計8年之內會再導致10所大學那不要只是輔導待退"},{"start":571.423,"end":593.997,"text":"這不是把他輔導這個積極的轉型因為其實這不是他的錯不是他的學校有問題、設備有問題而是因為少子化照不到學生嘛那開放第三人生大學有300萬人要報名啊你為什麼這可以救他們啊為什麼不積極的所以這不能拖延積極的同時解決給壯世代的希望同時解決這些高校的問題"},{"start":596.158,"end":615.571,"text":"長程的規劃就是跟這個學位的銜接但是這個不要變成長期我希望能夠更加快而且這個也不是那些被淘汰的如果那個未來的頂端的高級大學的這些優秀的大學也都應該要去朝向這一方面的開放"},{"start":619.266,"end":638.584,"text":"所以最後我要請部長是否因為這個的想法應該都有我非常肯定但是現在對執行的做法還有時間表這樣子的一個架構是不是能夠在一個月之內對短中長期這樣子的提供給本席"},{"start":639.665,"end":662.528,"text":"我想謝謝委員的質詢我們會來在一個月內提出來因為委員所勾勒的那一個圖像事實上跟我們的想像是一樣的我們也在做滾動式的修正我相信他未來不應該只是樂齡大學社區大學空大他應該在一般大學裡面就應該看到一個人生的一個轉換或者許多的一個更豐富的"},{"start":663.909,"end":664.389,"text":"謝謝,我們一起努力"}]}},{"id":"153895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153895","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8196c434af001be845825a148732a468ab6dc42bf70e43d78a935d124a0c032b89f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:28:49 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11:40:16","影片長度":"00:11:27","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:28:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:40:16+08:00","duration":687,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時28分）麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請鄭部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長你好，我們今天要討論校園霸凌跟毒品，我想要反映一些在教學現場實際上的狀況，例如說毒品，我們有講到學校裡面會推一個叫春暉專案，部長知不知道春暉專案在學校裡面的實施大概的狀況是怎樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：我知道它是針對毒品上的一個實施，但是……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，部長，我會跟你反映，因為你剛來啦！而且你是出身高教，可能對於國中、高中、國小不是這麼瞭解，我跟你報告，春暉專案在國中裡面大概能夠做的，就是針對他們懷疑可能有吸毒的同學去驗尿，就這樣，他們能做的就這樣，那這就會衍生出一個問題，比如說第一個，它必須要有一個個案，它才能夠去針對嘛！第二個是個案還要配合，如果今天個案他說我有我的人權，你為什麼隨便給我驗尿，那這個春暉專案在推動上是窒礙難行的。所以第一個我希望部長，因為才剛到嘛！你去瞭解一下，就是現在國中、高中到底在降低毒品的這個狀況遇到什麼窒礙難行的地方，一定要去瞭解，好不好？部長一定要去瞭解，否則的話，我們看那個數據，為什麼教育部每次告訴大家說你們做了很多方案在解決毒品的問題，但是毒品的問題越來越嚴重，到底問題在哪裡，部長可能要特別去瞭解。","第二個我們講到校園霸凌，部長你知不知道，如果今天有學生認為他被霸凌了，那他可以採取什麼樣的申訴機制，您知道嗎？他可以採取什麼樣的申訴機制？"],["鄭部長英耀：直接向學校來舉發……"],["葉委員元之：接洽學校對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：那我告訴你，接洽學校會遇到兩個狀況，第一個狀況，學校先來判定它是不是霸凌，如果學校認為你這是一次性的，這就是單純的學生欺負學生，那這個部分學校不見得會把它認定為霸凌，他會認為是一次性學生的欺負。"],["鄭部長英耀：這種一次性的如果造成傷害，我們講說就是一個校園的暴力行為，這還是會啟動，還是會用這個機制來啟動。"],["葉委員元之：不一定，可能他會找生教組或輔導老師的方式來處理，因為如果要啟動霸凌的話，會啟動另外一個機制，這個機制叫做校事會議，如果開校事會議的話，也會產生兩個問題，我現在跟部長報告，第一個問題什麼呢？要花非常久的時間，為什麼？因為它必須要請外部專家，然後也要讓學校裡面很多師資來處理，所以它會花大概一、兩個月。我想問部長，一個家長如果認為他的小朋友在學校被霸凌了，他的心情是怎麼樣？他一天都不能等啦！部長，一天都不能等！"],["鄭部長英耀：我完全同意。"],["葉委員元之：他要在這個過程當中去判斷他要不要把他的小朋友轉班，甚至轉學，對不對？因為在霸凌校事會議結果出來之前，他沒有辦法做這個決定，他會認為說如果結果沒出來，我的小朋友直接轉走，感覺好像是我的小朋友的問題，對不對？到時候他轉走以後隨便老師怎麼講，隨便學生怎麼講，可是他如果要留下來等待那個校事會議，兩個月，部長剛剛你也講了嘛！一天他都很難受，但是他要等兩個月，部長，你覺得這個流程有沒有問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實我們怎麼樣去減少這一個……首先當然就是減少霸凌的發生，這個我們從課程各方面我們會努力……"],["葉委員元之：這個我沒有討論到，我現在就是討論已經發生的。"],["鄭部長英耀：確實怎麼樣讓流程縮短，如果這一些霸凌的行為是明確的，我們怎麼樣能夠協助學校快速的處理這一個行為，我相信那是我們共同……"],["葉委員元之：這個是一個同理心的問題，為人父、為人母，知道自己的小朋友在學校被霸凌，他可能一天都不能等，可是我經歷過非常多家長跟我反映，在這過程當中，很多家長處理霸凌處理到聲嘶力竭啊！就是那種心裡的壓力，那種情緒的壓抑，部長，沒有遇到的人是很難瞭解的，所以我們作為一個教育單位，我們怎麼幫助家長去克服這個過程，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：部長你認同嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意。"],["葉委員元之：那是不是可以去瞭解一下校事會議的時間、處理的狀況，然後去做一個更有效率的解決方式？因為兩個月我個人認為實在太久。然後還有衍生另外一個問題，就是現在教育部並沒有額外的撥經費給學校去處理霸凌或校事會議，所以學校變成要自己編經費，要自己用既有的老師來處理，學校也會覺得負擔有點重，我不知道教育部能不能協助國小或國中、高中做這個事情？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實這一個校事會議上個月才剛通過、才剛實施，我們現在也跟地方政府合作，就是說除了地方政府給予必要的一些經費協助，我們在師對生每一案是補助1萬5,000塊，生對生我們每一案是補助1萬塊。"],["葉委員元之：儘量給學校協助好不好？因為學校現在不管是師資各方面都很吃緊。還有一個小技術性問題要提醒一下教育部，這是高中生跟我反映的。他說每半年大概學校會做一次霸凌調查，就怕學生平常不敢講，透過問卷的方式讓他們自己講出來有沒有霸凌的情況，但有時候收問卷的時候，都是用傳的，或者是收問卷的時候，很容易被其他同學看到他填這個問卷，那麼並沒有達到保護學生的作用，這個技術性問題希望可以克服一下，不要讓他們在寫這些問卷的時候，心生恐懼，好不好？","再來，我之前曾經很關心，就是校園安全，因為現在的社會環境跟以前很大的不一樣，現在社會環境是詐騙集團盛行，所以詐騙集團現在都把手伸到國中，吸收他們的幫派小弟去做詐騙集團的車手，所以現在國中幫派的情況越來越嚴重。過去教育部常常就推給老師，如果學生有問題，就是老師去處理、生教組長去處理。但是部長，我想問你，請問一下，一個老師在學校怎麼去處理幫派的問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這確實對老師已經逾越了他專業上的……"],["葉委員元之：很難處理啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：所以跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：我講一個真實狀況給部長聽，你知道現在很多國中的生教組長，就是負責我剛剛講那個業務的生教組長，都是代理老師，你知道這個狀況嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我進來以後，我聽到了。"],["葉委員元之：你知道為什麼都是代理老師？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為他確實面臨的挑戰是非常大的。"],["葉委員元之：是，所以我們是不是要解決這個問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：兩個建議。第一個，如果教育部在沒有辦法解決這個問題之前，能不能提高代理老師，特別是生教組長代理老師的待遇，可不可以？他做了正式老師很多不願意做的事嘛！他要面對、解決很多類似飛行學生的問題，但是他的待遇還是用代理老師的待遇，部長，這個合理嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上是不合理的，我事實上也跟委員報告，部裡對代理老師的待遇，因為他事實上也扮演一個專任教師的身分，所以在薪水待遇上，他是比照專任老師。"],["葉委員元之：我剛剛講的是生教組長。"],["鄭部長英耀：生教組長有主管的一個津貼。"],["葉委員元之：你再去瞭解一下，不然生教組長一直用代理的也不是辦法，對不對？你要去瞭解問題。我剛剛講，因為他要面對很多幫派的學生，他本來就比較危險。","再來，之前我曾經有提過，國中能不能比照高中成立校安人員，可不可以？就是由訓練有素的校安人員來處理剛剛所講的校園安全問題，可不可以？之前有提案，但是教育部也是隨便回我，因為現在換了一個部長，我們希望部長重新思考，因為現在校園安全確實是出了狀況。你叫老師去面對這些幫派學生，其實是給老師很大的壓力，所以應該要有專責訓練有素的人員去面對。希望下一次，等部長熟悉之後，我再來問部長，部長可以給我一個比較肯定的答案，因為這是為了學生好，為了要保護大多數。"],["鄭部長英耀：對於怎麼樣去提供一個友善跟安全的校園環境，不僅是學生的安全學習……"],["葉委員元之：沒錯。"],["鄭部長英耀：老師的安心教學，我想那是我們努力的目標。"],["葉委員元之：對，我剛剛提出方案是校安人員，部長如果有更好的方案，我們來討論，但如果沒有，你考慮一下，就是編一點預算去找校安人員來做，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：這個下次我再來問部長。","還有，現在老師講在學校記校規跟笑話一樣，校規變笑話，像我們以前小時候大家怕被記校規，為什麼？因為記三個大過退學，現在在學校記了十個大過卻沒事，反而還增加老師的負擔，老師為了記學生大過，還要寫報告。請問一下部長，校規記了十個大過，對學生都沒有任何影響，你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？要怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想有關學生的違規，某種程度他已經人地不宜，我們看怎麼樣去協助……"],["葉委員元之：我這邊一個建議，我覺得我們還是要設立很多中介組織，今天一個學生一直犯校規，也許他有校園暴力行為，記了十個大過，要嘛他就待在原來學校，要嘛轉到另外一個學校，成為另外一個學校的問題，那麼有解決任何的問題嗎？沒有！今天是不是應該要有一個中介組織，讓他先到中介組織接受訓練或是上學，然後再做處置，你不能把校規當作是完全沒有任何嚇阻力啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意委員所說的，對這些已經進入需要關懷的……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得我們的教育，當然學生人權很重要，這些少數學生的人權很重要，可是我們更應該思考的是怎麼樣保護更多善良的學生……"],["鄭部長英耀：完全同意，完全同意委員的看法。"],["葉委員元之：讓他們可以在一個無憂無慮的教育環境下學習，這也是教育部應該要注重的點吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["葉委員元之：這也就是今天為什麼我們討論霸凌跟毒品，好不好？部長，下一次我再來跟你討論，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝葉元之委員。","接下來我們請吳春城委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"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師資來處理所以他會花大概一兩個月那部長我想問你一個家長他如果認為他的小朋友在學校被霸凌了他的心情是怎麼樣?"},{"start":191.854,"end":217.323,"text":"他一天都不能等啊部長一天都不能等我完全同意他要在這個過程當中他要去判斷我要不要把我小朋友轉班甚至轉學對不對因為他在霸凌校事會議結果出來之前他沒有辦法做這個決定他會認為說如果結果沒出來我小朋友直接轉走現在感覺好像是我小朋友的問題啊對不對到時候我轉走以後隨便老師怎麼講隨便學生怎麼講啊"},{"start":218.666,"end":230.122,"text":"可是他如果要留下來等待那個校式會議兩個月部長剛剛你也講了一天他都很難受但是他要等兩個月部長你覺得這個流程有沒有問題"},{"start":231.976,"end":257.866,"text":"確實我們怎麼樣去減少這一個首先當然就是減少霸凌的一個發生這我們在從課程各方面我們努力我沒有討論到現在就是討論說發生的確實怎麼樣去讓它縮短明確這一些霸凌的一個行為是明確的我們怎麼樣能夠來協助學校快速的來處理這一個行為我相信那是我們共同"},{"start":258.466,"end":274.166,"text":"這是一個同理心的問題嘛為人父為人母知道自己的小朋友在學校被霸凌他可能一天都不能等可是我經歷過非常多家長跟我反映在那個過程當中很多家長處理那個霸凌處理到聲嘶力竭啊"},{"start":275.091,"end":275.591,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":301.243,"end":321.572,"text":"更有效率的解決方式因為兩個月我個人認識在太久然後還有一個臉生的另外一個問題就是因為現在教育部並沒有額外的撥經費給學校去處理這個霸凌校事會議所以學校變得要自己編經費要自己用既有的老師來處理"},{"start":323.393,"end":330.718,"text":"那學校也會覺得負擔有點重啊我不知道說教育部能不能協助國小或國中、高中做這個事情能不能"},{"start":353.553,"end":354.213,"text":"教育部長鄭英耀"},{"start":369.878,"end":369.898,"text":"獲獎獎項目"},{"start":386.992,"end":404.72,"text":"保護學生的作用這個技術性問題希望可以克服一下不要讓他們在寫這些問卷的時候心生恐懼好不好然後再來我之前曾經很關心就校園安全因為現在的社會環境跟以前很大不一樣現在社會環境是詐騙集團盛行"},{"start":406.246,"end":430.328,"text":"所以詐騙集團現在都把手伸到國中去吸收他們的幫派小弟去做詐騙集團的車手所以現在的國中的幫派的情況越來越嚴重那過去教育部常常就推給老師說如果學這種問題的話老師去處理生教組長去處理但部長我想問你請問一下一個老師怎麼去處理幫派的問題在學校"},{"start":431.038,"end":439.467,"text":"我想這個確實對老師的專業已經異躍了他的一個專業上的很難處理啦我講一個真實狀況給部長聽啦你知道現在很多國中的生教組長就是負責我剛剛講那個業務的生教組長"},{"start":446.354,"end":468.574,"text":"都是代理老師你知道這個狀況嗎我進來以後我聽到了你知道為什麼都代理老師因為他確實面臨的挑戰是非常大的是 那所以我們是不是要解決這個問題是兩個建議 第一個如果說教育部沒有辦法在解決這個問題之前能不能提高代理老師特別是生教組長代理老師的待遇可不可以"},{"start":469.67,"end":490.51,"text":"他做了一個正式老師很多不願意做的事他要去解決很多類似問題那個飛行學生的問題但是他的待遇還是用代理老師的待遇部長這個合理嗎這基本上是不合理的我事實上也跟委員報告這部裡邊對代理的老師已經也"},{"start":491.551,"end":515.255,"text":"因為他事實上也扮演一個專任教師的一個身份所以在薪水代理上他是比較專任的老師對,我剛剛講是生教組長生教組長他有的一個主管的一個你再去了解一下生教組長你一直用代理的也不是辦法嘛對不對,你要去了解問題嘛那我剛剛講就是因為他面對很多幫派的學生啊他本來就比較危險嘛"},{"start":517.397,"end":540.375,"text":"然後再來之前我曾經有提過國中能不能比照高中成立校安人員可不可以就是由訓練有數的校安人員來處理剛剛所講的校園安全問題可不可以之前有提案但是教育部也是隨便回我了那因為現在換了一個部長我們希望部長重新思考好不好因為現在校園安全確實是出了狀況"},{"start":541.576,"end":556.478,"text":"那你叫老師去面對這些幫派學生其實是給老師很大的壓力所以應該要專責的訓練有數的人員去面對啦我希望說下一次就等部長熟悉之後再來問部長部長可以給我一個比較肯定的答案因為這個是為了學生好"},{"start":556.718,"end":561.74,"text":"我提出來方案是校安人員嘛那部長如果你有更好方案我們來討論嘛但如果沒有的話你考慮一下就是編一點預算去找校安人員來做嘛好不好 這個下次我再來問部長還有啊"},{"start":582.646,"end":610.093,"text":"現在老師講說在學校寄校規跟校話一樣校規變校話像我們以前小時候大家怕被寄校規為什麼因為寄大過三個大過退學我們現在在學校寄了十個大過沒事然後反而還增加老師的負擔老師為了寄大過還要寫報告寄學生大過還要寫報告那請問一下部長這個校規寄了十個大過都沒有對學生沒有任何影響你不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":611.26,"end":639.546,"text":"要怎麼處理啊我想有關學生的違規當他某種程度他已經人地不宜啦我們看怎麼樣去協助他我這邊一個建議好不好我這邊一個建議啦我覺得我們還是要設立很多中介組織就是說你今天一個學生他一直犯校規也許他有校園暴力行為記著十個大過要嘛他就待在云南學校要嘛轉到另外一個學校成為另外一個學校的問題"},{"start":641.166,"end":655.738,"text":"那你有解決任何問題嗎?沒有啊今天是不是應該要有一個中介組織讓他先到中介組織接受訓練或是上學然後再做處置嘛你不能說把校規當作是完全沒有那個阻力啊"},{"start":657.271,"end":683.826,"text":"我同意委員說的對這些已經進入需要關懷的我覺得我們教育當然學生人權很重要這些少數學生人權很重要可是我們更應該思考是怎麼樣保護更多善良的學生讓他們可以在一個無憂無慮的教育環境下學習這是應該也是教育部應該要注重的點好不好這也就是今天為什麼我們要討論霸凌跟毒品好不好部長下一次我再來跟你討論謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153894","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153894","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819d9af0be01783499f0fec08313b105ec0dc42bf70e43d78a9d71fa32a71faafad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:51:20 - 10:02:43","影片長度":"00:11:23","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:51:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:02:43+08:00","duration":683,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時51分）謝謝召委，是不是請一下經濟部及教育部？"],["主席：好，郭部長及教育部政次。"],["邱委員議瑩：郭部長，我想從您上個禮拜來做業務報告裡頭，您有談到4年之內要培育20萬個AI人才，對不對？所以臺灣大概是全世界少數搭上第一波AI浪潮的國家，就實際面來說，臺灣在半導體的先進製程、在AI伺服器的製造是有優勢的，但是在AI相關的IC設計或生成式AI應用服務的人才上面，其實臺灣的優勢是不大的，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：同意。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。如果是這樣，我們今天要來談未來搭上這一波AI浪潮之後，首先要談的是要培育20萬名AI人才，請問一下部長，這20萬名AI人才全部是自己培育，還是有包括一部分是從國外攬才進來的？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概在LLM的部分必須要從國外攬才，所以我都告訴來臺灣投資的這些比較大的國外廠商最少要帶一半的人才進來，所以像輝達要有1,000位工程師，我們就強烈地要求它要帶500位工程師進來。"],["邱委員議瑩：可是輝達現在大概只能帶10%的人進來啊。"],["郭部長智輝：那個是過去，我後來有跟他們再溝通。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果未來是這樣，經濟部就不是培育20萬名AI人才，應該是培育加攬才，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：我為什麼會請教育部上來？今天很可惜沒有辦法聽到教育部的報告，但是我看了一下教育部的書面，你們所有的AI教育、數位的教育通常都是從高等教育才開始做起，包括在職專班、碩博士班等等，比如110年開始透過國家重點領域產學合作及人才培育創新條例，要招攬972名碩士、博士生，但是我看了你們的招攬名額，要達到20萬名，4年內根本做不到，請問教育部有什麼方式嗎？我看到韓國，韓國現在要從國民教育裡頭去推廣AI數位教育，2025年開始韓國就會在中小學導入AI數位教科書，請問次長，臺灣呢？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我想我們在AI人才培育這一塊，其實過去有一個非常重要的就是透過國家重點領域產學合作及人才培育創新條例，我們有重點科技學院。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["葉次長丙成：在重點科技學院13家裡面，其中有5家就是跟人工智慧有關的，然後我們每年在這裡面大概有培養972位碩博士……"],["邱委員議瑩：對嘛！你一年才培養九百多名，那要達到部長講的20萬名，那個差距是很大的……"],["葉次長丙成：還沒講完，剛才講的是碩博士。"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道啊。"],["葉次長丙成：我們大學部這邊的話，因為我們每年有大專院校智慧科技及資訊安全碩士人才計畫……"],["邱委員議瑩：次長，你現在報告的東西都在你的書面裡頭，我有看到。"],["葉次長丙成：是、是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我現在請教的就是說有沒有可能把它往下扎根？不是只有在高等教育才開始推這個東西，我跟您提到的例子，韓國已經在2025年要導入AI數位教科書，臺灣呢？有沒有這樣的規劃跟期程？你越快往下扎根，你達到所謂人才的達標，其實是越快。"],["葉次長丙成：是，跟委員報告，教育部現在研擬數位教學指引，這個預計在10月會出來，這個指引其實蠻全面，包括我們告訴校長，不管跟數位、跟AI的導入要怎麼做，還有老師、家長……"],["邱委員議瑩：10月數位教學指引會出來，那預計什麼時候會開始實施？明年度嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：其實它出來以後，下個學期就開始了。"],["邱委員議瑩：下個學期就會開始實施？"],["葉次長丙成：這個是延續性的……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以這是一個非常重大的教育改變，我覺得教育部應該是要好好規劃，然後要好好宣導。"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我們有所謂「生生用平板」這樣一個很好的政策，所以你們在推廣所謂的AI數位教科書的這些課綱，其實對他們來講，應該是要更快上手。"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我期待，如果是有一個這麼好的政策的話，教育部應該要好好的來做宣傳。"],["葉次長丙成：也跟委員報告，我們另外一個規劃的方向，因為其實在108課綱高中會有所謂多元選修的課程，當然，你要高中開出AI的課程，它不見得有這樣的量能，所以我們也在規劃新的模式，比如透過我們自己的中央廚房設計出這樣的線上課程，再搭配各高中種子的老師來推，這個也是我們未來會努力的目標。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，我覺得創造臺灣的整體AI環境，不會只有國發會，也不會只有經濟部，我覺得教育部在整個教育體系裡頭共同去努力創造，這是很重要的一件事，教育部次長，您請回，郭部長，您也可以請回。","我請問一下國發會，劉主委，您剛剛在報告的時候，其實你有特別談到未來導入AI，包括我們的留才、攬才等等，你要用企業的方法，所以剛剛其實也有委員問到我們的留才、攬才政策裡頭，對於您在海外攬才這一些針對技術人員的誘因是不太夠的，包括稅則、包括他們的居留等等，您覺得站在國家發展的角度上面，臺灣有沒有必要檢討我們現行的移民政策？如何讓您這一些企業方法的攬才條件，讓它更人性化，或者是讓它更具備誘因？比如剛剛講的人才來到這裡之後，他的課稅問題、他的居留問題、子女教育問題，這些過去我們在攬才專案的法規討論上面其實都討論了很多，但是對於這些海外的人，不管他是華人也好，不管是臺裔也好，或者他是外國籍的人也好，他要到臺灣來，誘因其實不太夠，這跟臺灣整個移民政策是有相關的。就國發會的立場，您覺得臺灣的移民政策是不是需要檢討？或者在我們要攬AI人才這個區塊上面，是不是應該要有一些更大幅的開放？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，我們目前看起來是需要檢討，才會具備國際的競爭力，要更加的開放，也才有機會去吸引人才。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，國發會有沒有就這個部分跟其他的各部會，比如移民署、內政部，或者你們有沒有做一個總體的規劃總體檢？你們現在要提AI基本法，經濟部要培育20萬的AI人才，要從國外攬才進來，你說輝達進來投資，它必須帶一半以上的人是從海外進來的，海外進來的這一些人要怎麼樣留在臺灣？他要符合臺灣什麼樣的法令？你對這些人要怎樣讓他有足夠的誘因留在這兒？這個其實都需要你們有一個跨部會的檢討。我其實不太喜歡你們每次都講說什麼東西就會變成第二座護國神山，現在你們已經又把AI捧得很高，又說AI是第二座護國神山，你真的要當護國神山的時候，其實你是必須要各部會所有相關的法令配套都完整，人才、獵才其實都需要一個完整的配套，但我現在看不出來你們所謂完整的配套上面，比如AI生態園區，到底它是實體還是虛擬？你們都講不清楚啦，國發會跟數發部的態度、意見根本完全講不清楚。然後包括你們跟經濟部的配合，包括跟教育部的配合，甚至跟財政部的配合，這個其實是需要花很長的時間去討論，而不是今天你自己國發會隨便就丟一個東西出來，我不知道你們在行政院裡面到底有沒有就這一塊去做過討論？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在就初步的意見是有溝通過，但是細部的部分……"],["邱委員議瑩：就只有初步意見喔？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：細部的部分其實已經在整理，我們現在整理了6個國家的優缺點，因為我們要確定我們的競爭定位在哪裡。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也跟委員報告，不只是剛才講的稅，包括這些人進來，他的小孩的教育等等，其實我們都會整體規劃以後去溝通各部會。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，主委，我覺得這個動作可能要快啦！如果你們要把AI變成第二座護國神山的話，相關所有的法令配套、各部會的配合、各部會的推動，遇到有窒礙難行的地方，我覺得大家都應該要趕快把問題都丟出來，然後來集思廣益，趕快來解決，你才有辦法很快速地把臺灣變成是一個AI島，甚至你現在要做的這一些AI的產業，不只是中小企業，產業要有AI化，我們的醫療、農業是不是都能夠運用這樣一個AI技術，把它全面推廣出去？你講到農業、講到醫療，你又會牽扯到農業部、衛福部，所以其實它整個就是一個大行政院、大政府的架構去推動所謂的AI產業，這個其實千頭萬緒，但是我們期待跟你們一起努力，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請呂玉玲委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","蔡易餘","羅智強","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教\n育部首長就「為掌握生成式 AI 等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化 AI 生態系及充\n實 AI 人才與產業 AI 化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用 AI 賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":2.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.53471875,"end":19.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.399093750000002,"end":22.356593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.06534375,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.195968750000002,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.516593750000002,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.60846875,"end":30.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.50284375,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.76409375,"end":34.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.46846875,"end":35.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.36284375,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.75409375,"end":55.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.836593750000006,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.77284375000001,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.06784375,"end":68.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.40409375,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.39471875000001,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.87534375,"end":81.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.21221875,"end":82.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.80284375000001,"end":84.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.86159375000001,"end":86.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.17346875000001,"end":91.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.57346875,"end":94.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.54784375000001,"end":103.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.40721875000001,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.39846875,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.78159375000001,"end":119.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.01221875,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.63534375,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.50409375,"end":135.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.94221875,"end":142.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.96221875,"end":154.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.19846875000002,"end":143.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.69034375,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.79534375,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.94659375,"end":166.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.90784375,"end":172.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.01659375,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.74159375000002,"end":181.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.41596875000002,"end":183.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.91346875000002,"end":187.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.59221875,"end":189.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.09409375,"end":190.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.61284375000002,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.87346875,"end":202.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.13846875000002,"end":204.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.24784375000002,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.95659375000002,"end":212.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.11596875,"end":216.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.68909375,"end":234.17159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.38471875000002,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.60409375,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.05784375000002,"end":236.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.28534375,"end":235.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.66909375,"end":238.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.71096875,"end":240.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.63471875000002,"end":254.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.13221875000002,"end":243.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.75096875000003,"end":280.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.80534375000002,"end":257.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.66471875,"end":265.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.64534375,"end":280.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.88159375000004,"end":297.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.44034375,"end":300.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.99284375,"end":299.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.55784375,"end":302.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.45221875000004,"end":303.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.10159375,"end":308.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.18159375000005,"end":309.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start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郭部長這個我想從您上個禮拜來做業務報告裡頭您有談到"},{"start":44.237,"end":67.983,"text":"4年之內要培育20萬個AI人才所以台灣大概是全世界少數搭上這個第一波的AI浪潮的國家但我們其實看得到就實際面來說台灣在所謂的半導體的先進製程在AI伺服器的製造其實我們是有優勢"},{"start":69.463,"end":81.554,"text":"但是在AI相關的IC設計或生成式AI應用服務的這些人才上面其實台灣的優勢是不大的您同意我的看法嗎同意"},{"start":82.976,"end":104.143,"text":"如果是這樣我們今天要來談這個未來搭上這一波AI浪潮之後首先要談的是要培育20萬名AI人才請問一下部長這20萬名AI人才是全部是自己培育嗎還是你有包括一部分是從國外攬才進來的"},{"start":105.607,"end":129.84,"text":"我們大概在LM的部分必須要從國外攬產所以我有請來台灣投資的這些比較大的國外廠商我都告訴他們你最少要帶一半的人才進來所以像輝達它要有1000位工程師所以我們就強烈的要求它要有帶500位工程師進來可是輝達現在大概只能帶10%的人進來"},{"start":131.641,"end":141.973,"text":"那個是過去我後來有跟他們在溝通如果未來是這樣那經濟部就不是培育20萬名AI人才"},{"start":143.841,"end":166.014,"text":"應該是培育加攬財對不對因為我為什麼會請教育部上來是今天很可惜沒有辦法聽到教育部的這個報告但是我看了一下教育部的書面你們所有的AI教育這一些數位的教育通常都是從高等教育才開始做起包括你的在職專班包括你的碩博士班等等"},{"start":166.994,"end":186.355,"text":"比如說你110年開始透過國家重點領域產學合作培育人才創新條例要招攬972名碩士博士生就我看了你們這個所謂的招攬名額要達到20萬名四年內根本做不到那請問教育部有什麼方式嗎"},{"start":188.646,"end":203.571,"text":"我看到韓國韓國他們現在是要從國民教育裡頭去推廣AI數位教育2025年開始韓國就會在中小學導入AI數位教科書那請問台灣呢"},{"start":205.591,"end":229.204,"text":"市長跟委員報告我想我們在AI人才培育這一塊我們過去一個非常重要的就是我們透過國家重點領域產學合作及人才培育創新條例我們有重點科技學院這重點科技學院裡面13家裡面有其中5家是跟人工智慧有關的我們每年在這裡面我們大概有"},{"start":229.844,"end":233.828,"text":"培養972位教授博士你一年才培養900多名那要達到部長講的20萬名那個差距是很大的還沒講剛才講是說博士我們大學部這一邊的話因為我們有這個每年我們有這個大專院校"},{"start":250.603,"end":252.664,"text":"智慧科技及資訊安全碩士人才計畫"},{"start":281.063,"end":301.688,"text":"跟委員報告我們在這個教育部現在在研擬這個數位教學指引這個在預計在10月會出來那這個指引其實蠻全面包括說我們會告訴校長如果像一些跟不管跟數位跟AI的導入要怎麼做然後老師還有家長10月會出來數位教學指引那預計什麼時候會開始實施其實它出來以後"},{"start":304.184,"end":331.426,"text":"下個學期就開始下個學期就會開始實施這個是一個非常重大的教育的改變我覺得教育部應該是要好好的規劃然後要好好的宣導我們有這個所謂的生生用平板的這樣的一個很好的政策所以你們在推廣所謂的AI數位教科書的這個課綱其實對他們來講應該是要更快上手所以我期待如果是有一個這麼好的政策的話教育部應該是要好好的"},{"start":332.246,"end":348.025,"text":"來做規劃這宣傳另外在規劃的方向就是說因為其實在108課剛高中會有所謂的多元選修的課程那多元選修課當然你要高中開出AI的課程它不見得有這樣的量能所以我們也在規劃一新的模式就是說我們怎麼樣比如透過"},{"start":348.585,"end":373.185,"text":"我們自己中央廚房設計出這樣的課線上課程再搭配各個高中的種子學的老師那來推這個也是我們未來會努力的目標我覺得就是說創造台灣的整體AI環境不會是只有國發會也不會是只有經濟部我覺得教育部我們在整個的教育體系裡頭共同去努力創造這個是很重要的一件事來那個教育部次長那您請回"},{"start":374.466,"end":377.835,"text":"那那個郭部長你也可以請回我請問一下國發會"},{"start":386.29,"end":413.748,"text":"來 劉主委您剛剛在那個報告的時候其實你有特別談到未來導入AI包括我們的流財、纜財等等你要用企業的方法所以剛剛其實也有委員問到我們的流財、纜財政策裡頭其實對於您在海外纜財的這一些誘因技術人員的誘因其實是不太夠的"},{"start":414.868,"end":431.906,"text":"包括稅責包括他們的居留等等您覺得正在國家發展的角度上面台灣有沒有必要檢討我們現行的所謂的移民政策如何讓您這些企業方法的這些攬財的條件"},{"start":434.428,"end":462.095,"text":"讓它更人性化或者是說讓它更具備誘因比如說剛剛講的人才來到這裡之後他的課稅問題他的居留問題子女的教育問題這個過去我們在攬財專案的法規討論上面其實都討論了很多但是對於這些海外的人不管他是華人也好不管是台裔也好或者是他是外國籍的人也好他要到台灣來"},{"start":463.715,"end":480.345,"text":"右鷹其實不太夠就是跟台灣的整個移民政策是有相關的就國發會的立場您覺得台灣的移民政策是不是需要檢討或者是在我們要攬AI人才的這個區塊上面我們是不是應該要有一些更大幅的開放"},{"start":481.405,"end":504.297,"text":"是的我們目前看起來是需要檢討才會具備國際的競爭力要更加的開放也才有機會去吸引人才好那這樣子國發會有沒有就這個部分跟其他的各部會比如說移民署、內政部或者是說你們有沒有做一個總體的規劃總體檢你們現在要提AI的基本法經濟部要培育"},{"start":505.657,"end":515.664,"text":"20萬的AI人才要從國外攬財進來你說輝達進來投資他必須帶一半以上的人是從海外進來的那海外進來的這一些人要怎麼樣留在台灣"},{"start":518.006,"end":543.854,"text":"他要符合台灣的什麼樣的法令你要怎麼樣把這些人讓他有足夠的誘因留在這這個其實是都需要你們有一個跨部會的檢討我其實不太喜歡你們每次都講說什麼東西就會變成第二座護國神山現在你們已經有把AI捧得很高又說AI是第二座護國神山你真的要當護國神山的時候其實你是必須要各部會"},{"start":545.174,"end":563.127,"text":"所有相關的法令配套都必須要完整人才的獲得劣才其實都是需要一個完整的配套但我現在看不出來你們所謂完整的配套上面比如說AI生態園區到底它是實體還是虛擬"},{"start":565.709,"end":591.645,"text":"你們都講不清楚啦國發會跟事務發布的態度意見根本就講完全講不清楚啊然後包括你們跟經濟部的配合包括跟教育部的配合甚至跟財務財政部的配合這個其實是需要花很長的時間去討論而不是你自己今天一個國發會隨便就丟一個東西出來就我不知道"},{"start":592.796,"end":618.163,"text":"你們在行政院裡面到底有沒有就這一塊去做過討論我們現在就初步的意見是有溝通過但是細部的部分我們其實已經在整理我們現在整理了六個國家的優缺點因為我們要定位我們的競爭定位在哪裡那也跟委員報告不只是剛才講的稅包括這些人進來他的小孩的教育等等其實我們都會整體規劃以後然後去溝通各部會"},{"start":619.039,"end":640.908,"text":"好 這個主委我覺得這個動作可能要快啦這個如果說你們要把AI變成第二座護國神山的話相關的所有的法令配套各部會的配合各部會的推動遇到有治安難行的地方我覺得大家都應該要趕快把這個問題都丟出來然後來集思廣益趕快來解決你才有辦法來"},{"start":642.108,"end":664.82,"text":"很快速的把台灣變成是一個AI島那甚至說你現在要做的這些AI的產業不只是中小企業產業要有AI化我們的醫療、農業是不是都能夠運用這樣的一個AI技術把它全面的推廣出去那你講到農業講到醫療你要牽扯到的又會到農業部、衛福部"},{"start":666.161,"end":677.976,"text":"所以其實它整個就是一個大行政院大政府的架構去推動這個所謂的AI產業這個其實千頭萬緒但是我們期待跟你們一起努力好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8197a1b6e3d48a3c29e25a148732a468ab6dc42bf70e43d78a9bbd3cd1cf68d15805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:04:06 - 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對不對所以你要詳細數據看看這個每年的這個變化生對生 那失對生的呢失對生也有但是失對生的比例相對少很多那還是有黑數"},{"start":247.637,"end":247.957,"text":"我看你的報告裡面"},{"start":265.478,"end":266.078,"text":"最後10秒鐘請部長"},{"start":287.489,"end":315.214,"text":"你生對生有一個準則來應用然後你這個施對生教那個權力不對等你用這個解聘教什麼解聘的辦法我覺得不夠周延是不是比照這個生對生施對生的這個霸凌也用一個有一個客觀的一個調查委員會來處理有有有這個我們事實上也都有調查小組而且是一個這個都是外聘的一個委員"},{"start":316.465,"end":316.625,"text":"邱志偉議員"}]}},{"id":"153891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153891","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81947c0a787d11eaf9659a48fe1a1d57c38dc42bf70e43d78a9b2e2f3909ef031385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:12:08 - 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這個應該查得你一直在搖頭你沒有去查怎麼知道他有沒有外流對不對 要不然第二個民眾一定有個疑問嘛那四方 四方跟人家業務 業務合作他明明沒這個業務啊他跟台南市政府也沒有這個業務啊他為什麼可以做這個事情資料從哪邊來"},{"start":253.874,"end":282.045,"text":"只有三家電信有這個資料嘛 對不對那現在關機密順便掀起中華電信啊現在不是你搖頭耶這是一個客觀的事實啊你最好去查啊是不是這樣NCC要去查 檢調人要查那個有關於四方的假使電信服務的部分我們會去查還對OK 會進去嘛來來 局長我再問你一個最近還有一個也是蠻嚴重的問題引起蠻大的恐慌的這陣動的立法委員沈博洋"},{"start":283.322,"end":310.857,"text":"他直接挑戰你們,他是接受針訪的時候,他直接說他說啊國安局啊很難對國內人士做針訪他說台灣應該要一個應對中國的作戰中心對國內的高風險的高風險群要進行控管這兩個人裡面,有兩個叫你管的第一,他說你國安局那麼努力可是"},{"start":312.386,"end":316.615,"text":"你對國內的某些可能會被滲透或者第五縱隊你是沒辦法做申訪嗎?"},{"start":318.472,"end":344.097,"text":"這部分剛剛早上黃蓮委員也有在關切我們做過相關的說明也就是說這幾年我們在國安團隊進行國安案件的偵辦非常的積極那去年到現在已經有偵辦了81個案件那檢方起訴有39個案件那這已經是歷來最大的數字你贊不贊成說台灣應該要有一個應對中國的作戰中心對國內的高風險群進行控管你有贊成這個意見嗎"},{"start":344.957,"end":357.411,"text":"我想委員對於一些怎麼樣來強化國安的一些討論或建議我們都尊重但是我要特別強調尊重現在引起那麼多人的恐慌你尊重喔國安局長對於這樣的一個要監控監控幾十萬人你是尊重的嗎"},{"start":360.635,"end":360.975,"text":"沈博洋講的高風險情"},{"start":377.329,"end":379.61,"text":"中共可能威脅在中國做生意．或者有蹊蹺在中國的人．包括陸配,38萬"},{"start":410.383,"end":430.447,"text":"我們在偵辦國安案件或共諜案一定要有法律的依據那這也是為什麼我們國安團隊在偵辦相關的案件要依照國安法跟反滲透法的法律要件來蒐證有的話才會移送檢調單位來偵辦那我們蒐證結果到底檢調單位特別是院方最後怎麼裁法這我們尊重司法的判決"},{"start":431.267,"end":457.129,"text":"市長裡面有一個很重要的點被點名是高風險的包括立法委員、傳理長、陸配就在台灣有這麼多人你怎麼讓這些人覺得他不是被欺負的有可能會被監控怎麼讓他們安心我剛剛跟委員說明就在這一部分我們的所有的偵辦國安案件都一定要有法律當基礎這就是我們民主法治國家最基本的標準黑熊協議有很多民間的這個機構他做一些民防的這個沒有什麼不同"},{"start":458.12,"end":481.951,"text":"可是他創辦人現任的立法委員也是執政黨不溫區男性第一名包括另外一個爭議性人物我們剛才在講的王逸川民進黨中央政策會執行長他們現在代表是什麼是執政黨的一個意念的一個表達嗎他不約而同裡面都提到什麼要監控人民的意圖跟儀式的作為這是不是一種民主倒退是不是一種白色恐怖"},{"start":482.964,"end":510.341,"text":"我們台灣以前經歷了白色恐怖之後現在要來一個綠色的恐怖嗎?歷史的教訓還不過嗎?國安局有責任讓全民是可以安心的國安局有相關的監控措施也不是不可以可是一定要得到可靠的情報對不對?有可靠的就像你說的有可靠的情報之後你才能夠針對某個個人或團體做監聽嘛可是現在不是啊"},{"start":511.461,"end":528.859,"text":"在民進黨裡面不管是王逸川講的或者是邢博安講的他是什麼他先把某個族群把他化成說是可能的敵人這個在民主國家裡面不是很危險荒謬的事嗎在自己的國家裡面去製造敵人把自己劃分出去錄片就有38萬人"},{"start":531.363,"end":557.356,"text":"局長,38萬的陸配現在是你們的監控對象嗎?沒有,我剛剛一直在強調的是,針對相關國安案件的偵辦,假如要涉及到有通訊監察的話,一定要走非常嚴謹的法律跟行政程序。國安局並不是發動單位,必須要由司法警察機關,包括警政署、縣警調有這樣的需求送到國安局,國安局進行審核,再由高等法院法官來進行。"},{"start":558.777,"end":571.529,"text":"透過今天這個執行讓所謂沈博洋講的高風險型的這些人能夠安心他不是會變心痛這是依照法律來這是依照法律來這是一個第二個我們最後要強調的我們只要是愛台灣認同台灣的人都是台灣啦"},{"start":575.168,"end":587.661,"text":"只要愛台灣、認同台灣人、恭喜台灣人不要在自己的國內再找敵人了不要再撕裂整個社會操作對立了國安局的任務非常重要好不好是,國安案件正辦,依法行政愛我們的台灣人,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8190f13b478c2f6af7d25a148732a468ab6dc42bf70e43d78a9d32e804fdbe4d6515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:53:38 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我們請部長好部長"},{"start":22.034,"end":48.547,"text":"部長好,今天我要跟你討論有關怎麼樣來防治毒品進入校園我先讓部長看一下這個是你們校安通報學生藥物濫用的統計在這幾年當中數據感覺好像也是差不多是這樣子沒有多大的變化另外我想請教就是說"},{"start":50.782,"end":68.86,"text":"這是我們這個是校安中心所呈報出來的一個統計那另外有關這個警方這一邊的他的這個涉毒嫌疑人的資料跟學籍勾結的這個結果那他這個數據跟我們這個校安通報的這個數據是完全"},{"start":71.582,"end":91.513,"text":"就是完全不一樣那哪一個數據才是正確的這個是我等一下要請教部長的另外就是說我們看到這個之前這個行政院也有特別提到就是說教育部這個教育部、法務部、內政部、衛福部會共同討論這個反毒的業務跟工作化被動為主動"},{"start":96.375,"end":119.256,"text":"更積極地檢視毒品的防制業務執行的狀況我想請教部長在這幾年當中怎麼樣強化校園的藥物濫用防制近三年的成效到底是怎樣這個數據為什麼跟警方的數據是完全鬥不攏的是不是可以請部長回答"},{"start":122.827,"end":143.04,"text":"警方查獲的數據都會提供給教育部進行學級的比對那學級比對確定他是在學生才會納入這個聰明輔導的個案所以那個目前警方這裡統計的官司高中時跟大端的人數遠比我們大得多很有可能是還沒有經過這個學級比對之後的結果"},{"start":147.952,"end":174.779,"text":"所以我想請教就是說教育部針對這一部分因為我看那個數據其實每一年呈現出來的數據其實也沒有差多少那你們到底在這個推動這個毒品防制的這一部分到底你們自己有沒有設定一個目標或設定什麼樣的成效什麼樣的成效什麼樣的數據才是你們認為是這個有效的防制這個毒品進入校園"},{"start":175.859,"end":196.158,"text":"你們自己有沒有設定一個目標?我們設定目標是希望能夠新生的射毒人口是可以逐年減少至於已經射毒的部分它的再犯率我們也希望透過輔導那個輔導成功率能提升讓它再犯率可以降低那經過這樣子你們覺得成效如何?"},{"start":197.993,"end":213.442,"text":"我看你們好像成效也...這幾年有受到疫情的因素的干擾所以數字有降有增情況還不是非常穩定可能需要更長的時間做觀察那你們未來要怎麼做"},{"start":214.721,"end":214.741,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":234.568,"end":234.748,"text":"主席"},{"start":256.961,"end":270.634,"text":"我們希望就是說教育部針對這一部分應該也要設定自己一個目標怎麼樣去降低這個人數那時間到那個主席各位麻煩一下不好意思那其他的我再私下跟部長討論好好好謝謝好謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"153889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153889","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819c8fdc373b9e7581125a148732a468ab6f1306821ff1b0f81798c8af07a2370ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:42:00 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複數的學生"},{"start":487.036,"end":505.16,"text":"可是為什麼學校跟你們的判定會不一樣就是我們對於不適任教師比如這個老師是不是已經不適合當老師了沒有一個比較清楚的準則那這個部分那其實體罰的事情我們也遇到老師帶領全班學生去討論要如何出班規結果大家討論出來說應該要罰跑操場等等"},{"start":508.821,"end":538.167,"text":"老師就這麼去做了後來被判定體罰老師認為這不是體罰因為是同學民主討論出來的班規我覺得老師在這個新時代遇到的問題就像剛剛有委員說的就是好像他的武器變少了那可是動不動就會被認為是霸凌或者是體罰那我一直主張教育部要定出什麼樣是好的就是老師的行為準則要怎麼管教"},{"start":538.607,"end":541.848,"text":"剛剛這個老師就是他最後被學校調查只有成立不斷管教那家長還對霸凌不成立提出申復申復成功後學校需要重啟調查那這些事情真的不斷在發生那今天召委辦的這個霸凌這個主題非常的重要那我希望教育部不是從零開始做因為去年我擔任召委的時候我們就辦了一個反霸凌降低霸凌的公聽會"},{"start":567.617,"end":589.822,"text":"教育部不知道記不記得你們應該記不記得不知道部長知不知道你們當時承諾要進行跨國研究因為我自己在做國會外交的時候到英國、德國、比利時我們都有特別跟他們的教育部會因為名稱不一定叫教育部相關的人請議有看到各國對於反霸凌或者等等"},{"start":590.502,"end":609.949,"text":"其實都有一些不同的做法跟準則所以教育部我有跟你們要資料你們現在4到6月正在請委辦研究專家學者嚴寧計畫籌組研究計畫團隊那可不可以部長可不可以告訴我們現在進度是不是依照你們的規劃說明是正在嚴寧計畫呢"},{"start":613.651,"end":623.079,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒,確實我們部裡邊已經在今年4月已經有用專案委託大學的專家來進行跨國的研究"},{"start":629.079,"end":633.261,"text":"我希望這個報告是很有品質的因為教育的問題不會只有台灣發生至少別的國家的不錯的經驗我們要能夠了解看看是不是能夠適用在台灣否則這樣的議題一直出現現有的老師真的覺得非常的困擾"},{"start":657.574,"end":686.483,"text":"那我們要給他一個好的工具說如何不是體罰然後不是違反教育部的霸凌相關的規定做好管教工作好不好所以我今天的兩個規定就是不是規定講錯了兩個對教育部長的期待跟要求就是第一個那個教真的亂象教育部那應該要研議一下我剛剛所講的那個部分那第二個教師行為準則的跨國研究持續進行希望能夠如期出來好不好"},{"start":687.463,"end":692.573,"text":"好那部長沒問題點頭好那謝謝昭偉那謝謝部長一起加油好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153888","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153888","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193b111b90fd917f140fec08313b105ec0f1306821ff1b0f8123f0955477ef1da45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"12:44:08 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謝謝主席 大家都辛苦了有請經濟部部長、國發會主委、國科會林法政副主委備詢好 我們請以上三位"},{"start":25.051,"end":45.34,"text":"謝謝也都辛苦了昨天本席在總質詢的時候有提到AI人型機器人的議題院長說政府都有在做那今天剛好經濟部、國發會、國科會都在這裡想請教您三個部會誰在主導國家的AI人型機器人Humanoid的政策三個部會是不是都有相關的計畫"},{"start":49.086,"end":67.481,"text":"我看到有人在這個很誠實的搖頭我覺得這是很好的不然的話早上說A下午變成B也不好有關計劃的話我想還是給各位一點時間去搜羅一下也許有可能比較小規模怎麼樣能不能在今天下班前將資料提供給本席"},{"start":68.837,"end":89.653,"text":"就有的話就提供沒有的話我們就知道沒有也沒有關係那機器人裡頭也很多軟體包括像是對話因為你要跟機器人講話眼睛機器人的眼睛要能夠看得懂這個世界同時也可能有新的IC需要被設計所以今天有媒體報導指出產業創新條例第十之二條的租稅抵減"},{"start":90.413,"end":106.166,"text":"吃硬不吃軟 優惠硬體生產廠 獨露IC設計業過去本席在質詢AI和晶片產業創新的議題的時候一直都在講四個字軟硬兼施隨著全球IC設計的產業競爭激烈"},{"start":107.887,"end":130.332,"text":"同時生成式AI也可能導入到IC設計的行業裡頭我們有沒有可能由政府單位在租稅優惠上擴大範圍來幫助台廠的IC設計業甚至更多的AI或機器人或人型機器人的軟體業拉高研發的動能?國務部長、劉主委你們覺得廠商的建議合理嗎?國際趨勢是否將軟體研發的經費也納入稅務優惠的範圍?"},{"start":135.253,"end":154.225,"text":"報告委員這個早上的這個吃軟不吃硬這個它沒有達到我們的標準它沒有達到標準不是我們沒有我們的產創條例是有的不過您的這個指導我在想說我們可以在為了將來的這整個IC業的這個設計業的發展"},{"start":158.368,"end":177.962,"text":"我們可以再來討論一下那個條件放寬一下其實就怕搞錯所以我後面直接就附了第12條真的是有一點吃硬不吃軟但沒有關係我們都一起來評估目前這個競爭很激烈希望請經濟部和國發會共同研議一個月內能不能提供本席的書面報告關於這個部分"},{"start":180.422,"end":198.732,"text":"報告委員可以好謝謝謝謝國發會在今天的報告當中也提到定標AI國際頂尖人才開展全球劣才計劃昨天這個院長我早上質詢完說美國白宮這個每一個部會都要有AI人才下午院長就說部部有AI"},{"start":199.733,"end":223.66,"text":"那我想我們的就業金卡還有人才AI人才不足我們希望能夠往外部往內就是從外部往內來往羅那我們一直在外流我們希望可以有入超所以半導體AI的產業眼睛快速人才的需求迫在眉睫現在就業金卡顯然不足能不能請教國發會留主委除了就業金卡以外我們能否研議新增條件較為彈性的AI就業銀卡"},{"start":226.942,"end":230.288,"text":"擴大對全球攬AI人才的機制"},{"start":232.059,"end":259.081,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前是因為現在是人才戰爭那它不僅僅是AI數位人才也很缺所以我們的公司所以呢我們現在是要準備正在我們現在找了6個國家做比較我們準備全面把它放寬太好了聽了太感動了不是只有AI因為各個地方的人才我們都需要吸引進來軟硬兼施好不好然後呢這個AI的產業因為既然都已經AI內閣我覺得稍微重視一下也不為過啦最後針對能源議題郭部長"},{"start":260.962,"end":287.328,"text":"本席知道您這段時間內也許內心有一定的掙扎、煎熬或評估我昨天本來要問你但時間有點衝觸今天有沒有更新說法因為過去這個我想這都不是大家的本意因為科學、事實、理性就擺在眼前那我想在此能不能爭取主席給我一點時間那我給郭部長一點時間能不能表達一下您現在對於核電廠演藝的看法"},{"start":288.697,"end":302.546,"text":"核電廠我的看法都沒有改變以現在的法規定我沒有辦法討論除去這個法以外就核電的部分我想它還是沒有辦法滿足綠電的需求"},{"start":305.868,"end":333.011,"text":"那如果說就其他的這個討論我想這個我們要討論這個核酸的核酸或者核二這些問題都不是在我們可以討論的範圍之內所以這一點我們會關注這個新的核能新的核電的這個發展因為美國我想美國日本這些先進國家他們也都在關注這些議題我們當然也是關注這個議題但是以目前來講"},{"start":334.252,"end":351.146,"text":"我們現在的畢竟還是核廢料是非常大的處理的問題那這個安全上面我們確實目前是沒有辦法那而且運作了40年它必須要下來下來以後再重新來檢討檢討它確實沒有問題了我們才來考慮現在這個都不是在議題裡面"},{"start":355.629,"end":370.287,"text":"非常抱歉謝謝部長您的回應我覺得還是相對客觀那我們也會持續的來交流核電的研議其實除了法規的修正我們希望行政院可以提出之外研議其實也是需要時間需要機組的整修這些其實是可以評估的"},{"start":373.491,"end":394.505,"text":"而不是說我們有委員在這邊質詢結果就說目前為止有電那這樣以後我們只要燈還亮著我們是不是就不用質詢核電的議題其實不是這樣所以能源政策非常務實客觀那您昨天院長也有提到這個基本法有這個限制什麼時候突然我們的院長又對我們的這個法令對我們大院這個出台的法案又這麼的尊重"},{"start":395.245,"end":423.053,"text":"我今天才從剛剛才從程序委員會用沖的沖過來我們就在處理複議案我們很尊重他的複議案但是我們立出來的法令結果變成這樣所以我想能源政策很科學客觀希望半導體和AI產業的未來提高了能源需求能不能請經濟部具體提出近5年因為半導體行業可能還會倍數增長我們講的是年增3%很可能都還是低估能不能提出近5年具備可行性的電力規劃讓產業"},{"start":425.034,"end":425.255,"text":"安心。」"}]}},{"id":"153887","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153887","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819a8acd1da281beef20fec08313b105ec0f1306821ff1b0f81e0e135e5ff889c205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:39:02 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Tahovecahe委員：那我要繼續說，以立法院來講，大家都看得很清楚，我們加薪調4%的時候，立法委員是公保，醫事人員公保，這都沒問題，連同我們的助理，他們是勞保，也都跟著加薪，因為我們同住一個屋簷下。但是像偏鄉地區的舍監、工友、廚工，這些約聘僱勞保的人員，是不是也應該都要有？我覺得這個都要一併來討論。現在大家詬病的還有一點，對偏鄉很不合理，像六都的學校都有保全，部長應該很清楚，可是從很多年以前，工友就遇缺不補，只給學校不到一萬塊當作臨時雜事的一個人力鐘點費。但對偏鄉來講，一早開門之後，要去灑水、修東西，而你給的錢只能聘38個小時，請問我們要找誰？所以，部長應該都知道，這對偏鄉都極為不利，希望在部長您的任內，可以將這部分好好整頓。我覺得這對所有偏鄉的老師、行政人員是一個很大的強心劑。","請主席再給我一分鐘。另外就是行政大逃亡的問題，我就不用多說了，因為投書的、雜誌的、新聞的，都已經很多了。部長應該最清楚，招不到行政人力，它的癥結點很簡單，就是沒有誘因，多少年來都沒有調整，我當主任、當組長，做這麼多工作，但是我跟導師沒什麼差別。對於這些要做寒暑假工作，還要做這麼多計畫、這麼多評鑑，卻只有一千塊一點點的差距，我覺得要去正視這個問題。我要特別跟部長講一下，內政部最近主動調高民代及村里長的事務費、助理費、為民服務費等等，這是內政部主動提出的！今天我提出來，關於偏鄉大逃亡、行政大逃亡，沒有人要當主任、組長，也不報考了，現在它的錄取率是百分之兩百多，針對這個部分，希望部長兩週內給我一個策進作為的報告，可以嗎？相信這個部分做好了，毒品、霸凌事件一定會下降，請給教育行政人員一支強心劑，好不好？謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.19096875,"end":2.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.164718750000002,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.392218750000001,"end":11.505968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.78346875,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.454093750000002,"end":20.399093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.60159375,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.48534375,"end":64.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.24034375000001,"end":72.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.70721875000001,"end":75.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.88409375,"end":81.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.46971875,"end":108.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.89159375000001,"end":116.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.63721875,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.25284375000001,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.77159375000002,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.73284375,"end":161.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.60471875000002,"end":163.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.51159375,"end":165.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.90784375,"end":167.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.63346875000002,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.48971875,"end":173.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.38784375,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.19346875000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.58971875,"end":186.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.93846875,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.03721875000002,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.70846875,"end":228.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.14721875,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.78846875000002,"end":228.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.90659375,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.97409375,"end":247.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.97534375,"end":273.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.89534375,"end":283.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.05409375,"end":357.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.13971875000004,"end":384.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.17346875000004,"end":385.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.63721875000005,"end":399.96846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.159,"end":2.66,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席 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這個叫做偏鄉大逃亡"},{"start":96.129,"end":118.641,"text":"我們有一個叫偏鄉條例前幾年制定的我們看一下如果跟制定前它的偏鄉流動率以國小來講2.1%制定這個條例之後112學年度國小的教師流動率降到1.2%所以看起來是有效的"},{"start":119.341,"end":146.358,"text":"但是呢比起全國平均還是高了一點點所以表示還有需要努力的空間那特別是這一次因為偏鄉教育條例說如果9任滿8年就會有一個所謂的9任獎金所以114年也是要發放了那我們特別看一下因為聲音很多像這個偏鄉教育條例的第21條"},{"start":147.819,"end":165.475,"text":"他給的9任獎金是給校長、老師第二項針對專聘的老師、代理的教師、專業的輔導人員甚至社工人員他也是準用所以這個部分我想要請教一下"},{"start":166.94,"end":185.949,"text":"因為我有一個版本也有其他的中加病委員賴會員委員等跟我一起共題就是我們想要問關於這些學校的教練學校的護理師學校的幹事他們是編制人員喔"},{"start":187.029,"end":188.431,"text":"所以想要請教一下部長您認為這個9任獎金偏鄉的這一些編制內的人員是不是應該也要一起來發放"},{"start":203.22,"end":207.203,"text":"我先補充一點訊息那現行我們初步統計大概明年會來發放約有8500人那現在統計的範圍那麼是如現在未修條例前的那委員所提的這樣的一個現象或是偏鄉的處境那部長非常的關切所以他會請我們跟地方政府還有相關的團體一起來共商那我要繼續說"},{"start":228.081,"end":247.372,"text":"因為以我們立法院來講大家都看得很清楚當我們去做加薪的時候條4%我們是立法委員是公保那議事人員公保都沒問題可是呢連同我們的助理他們是老保其實他們也都跟著加薪因為我們同住一個屋簷巷"},{"start":248.132,"end":273.248,"text":"那現在就是遇到一些像是我們偏鄉地區的社監、工勇、廚工這些約聘僱勞保的人員是不是他們也應該都要有我覺得這個都一併要來去討論那大家詬病的還有一個偏鄉很不合理的就是我們的像六都喔他們學校都有保全應該部長您很清楚可是"},{"start":274.108,"end":275.989,"text":"對偏鄉來講從一早開門要去灑水要修東西那你給的錢只能拼38個小時"},{"start":292.475,"end":292.975,"text":"另一塊就是行政大逃亡"},{"start":315.695,"end":328.927,"text":"那行政大逃亡我都不用多說了投書的雜誌的新聞的很多現在部長您應該最清楚招不到行政人力了那他的癥結很簡單就是沒有誘因多少年來沒有條"},{"start":333.331,"end":355.966,"text":"我當主任、我當組長做這麼多工作但是我跟導師沒什麼差別所以在這個部分我希望這些要做寒暑假工作做這麼多計畫、做這麼多評鑑這樣一點點一千塊的差距我覺得要去正視那我特別跟部長講一下我們最近內政部有主動調高"},{"start":357.307,"end":362.469,"text":"我提出來關於這個偏鄉大逃亡行政大逃亡沒有人要當主任組長也不考了他的入取率是百分之兩百多所以這個部分希望兩週內給我一個報告好不好策進作為可以嗎"},{"start":387.147,"end":387.327,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153885","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153885","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819ac7f1157891b72e7182e407f268492bcf1306821ff1b0f81c94745a67232c4b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:31:05 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謝謝主席我請金管會彭主委有請彭主委委員好主委你好你好主委按照你今天的報告我來幾個問題請教是說你們分階段來針對這個VASP的這個做一些的管理第一階段大概已經完成了嗎現在在進行中在進行當中對所以第一階段目前就是"},{"start":31.345,"end":49.591,"text":"你的辦法已經發布了嘛對然後對現況做一些的盤點那第二階段大概什麼時候開始啟動工會明天明天成立明天成立你那工會的規模大概有多少現在就是25個會員25個強制入會嗎應該都要參加"},{"start":56.104,"end":82.939,"text":"就是說你現在有在執行這個業務或者執行相關的這個行為者他會強制入會?對,業必歸會,他應該成立商業工會他們就要加入好,那這個他有一個自律規範嗎?成立以後就請他們加速的訂定自律規範那這自律規範是他們訂的還是你們給他知道的?我們會共同來努力好"},{"start":83.911,"end":101.154,"text":"所以在未來第三階段你要進行差異化管理差異化管理的主要是說它的經營的業務範圍不同它的交易型態對那如果對個人的避傷呢"},{"start":103.852,"end":121.988,"text":"個人避傷的定義是什麼個人避傷就等於說我們是一個事業或人員那個人避傷來講的話他本身是個商他就要做商業登記跟稅籍登記這樣的一個人他才可以從事我們的剛剛講的那個那個人避傷的定義你有明確化嗎"},{"start":124.49,"end":145.5,"text":"這個東西我們會有一個執法因為未來這個 假設這個條文修正以後他有一個授權執法會來定這個標準以及動機的條件是我們金管會來定金管會的哪一個局處來定正期局正期局來定是的那現在說這個他目前的你們現在這個辦法裡面他對於這個業者定義說以國內設立登記者為限"},{"start":152.179,"end":172.488,"text":"那如果是在國內登記呢?他所有的跨境他要在國內落地按照我們的規定來辦理所以只要在國內登記的他就必須要按照相當的規定包括法尊的義務等等吻合我們所有洗房跟反滋恐的要求那如果他境外未登記然後又實際從事業務"},{"start":175.39,"end":202.278,"text":"那你要怎麼去監管它?這個確實剛剛有委員提到就因為這個網路無國界跨境上面的就是我們假如它不在境內的好管那境外的難管境外的話無遠無界是的這個確實是全世界各國監理官的挑戰但是這個未來可能要透過跨國界的合作來解決這個問題跨國那你要跟每一個國家去合作至少我們對境內的東西一定要"},{"start":203.444,"end":207.893,"text":"要把它做好我們能不能推論它境外它就是規避一些相關的責任嘛"},{"start":209.656,"end":235.735,"text":"境外的話就是要有國人的風險也大嘛因為他沒有辦法被納管這個確實是讓我們很多境外金融所以很多詐騙就從此產生這我們盡量來防止如果你加入工會你又是在國內登記對不對那當然你是納管納管就沒有問題你有任何不法行為一定遭受這個主管金管嚴厲的制裁不管是這個法務部或者金管會"},{"start":236.596,"end":255.192,"text":"但如何境外我們就好像似乎拿他沒轍這個是全世界面臨的問題比如說我今天一個人他跑去美國網站買他的保險那確實是在這個我們的本國法是沒辦法禁止國恩做但是我們會不斷的宣導說你這不受本國的相關保護的規定而且你成本會很高"},{"start":256.994,"end":283.096,"text":"國內納管事小那境外的這個取締或者是怎麼樣防避防止在境外的詐騙這個才是重點這個是我們整體的打詐的裡面要注意至少比如民眾的試詐還有他的防詐知識的提升對於風險意識的提高這個都是我們未來要努力的方向所以第三階段什麼時候會開始啟動呢第三階段其實我們現在的法案已經送進了立法院"},{"start":284.065,"end":312.311,"text":"其實不要分階段就是同時進行我還以為你們有這個時間序的第1階段你要針對這個虛擬資產管理專法來立一個法是的那這個專法裡面有沒有包括對境外的管制職的總統這個我們會考慮到國際的趨勢我們在整個專案研究裡面會把比如說主體的要求以下行為的規範這些東西我們都會考慮在這個專法你們現在在國外也要研究其他國家的做法"},{"start":313.471,"end":333.439,"text":"目標你這個專法什麼時候可以出來我們剛才那個時程預計就是說我們希望年底我們內部有個草案出來可以公告可以預告收集意見我們的時程是預定到明年的六月的時候能夠報行政院明年六月另外一個小小提醒深層式的AI金融紛爭的時候證據保全的問題那這個金融機構這個可能問銀行局"},{"start":341.141,"end":342.283,"text":"金融機構如何做到證據保全?"},{"start":353.14,"end":375.527,"text":"報告委員,我們前一陣子有做過一個次調查目前對於採行深層式AI來做各式的業務程序的管理上面他們其實是比較保守的那未來會成為一個趨勢嗎對,那將來如果他們會運用的時候我想基本上他們一定先希望是不要涉及到客戶的資訊可能是內部流程"},{"start":377.765,"end":404.757,"text":"你未來越發展的話很難避免吧對那這邊因為我們也有一個生成會有一個AI的一個指引那所以到時候各個金融機構在採用這樣的技術的時候也會依照那樣的指引來辦理那順便問一下那個新欽案方案所產生的弊端包括這個人頭戶包租婚的問題我想這個銀行局也應該了解代後的管理這是銀行局的業務還是檢察局的業務那個主委"},{"start":407.921,"end":426.068,"text":"如果是強化新清安方的成為不要讓他成為這個房價炒作的一個幫兇啊新清安的部分呢假設是銀行的行為當然是金管會但是他整個政策應該是財政部這邊主政那如果是貸貨管理這是財政部要針對他所屬的銀行"},{"start":427.208,"end":444.233,"text":"就是我們從一個風險角度帶後管理這是我們我們也要關注的點所以是銀行局還是檢察局銀行局是銀行局對這部分如果銀行局介入的強度應該會比較強吧他有他一定的SOP啦這部分其實銀行在這個發銀行跳樓銀行局就嚇到死了"},{"start":446.414,"end":460.443,"text":"他有5P、KYC還有就是剛才代後管理都是他們標準的程序我們現在討論是未來可能發生的問題但是未來可能發生的問題遲早都會發生所以我們應該這個主管機關應該是未籌摩,遲早因應謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝邱志文委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"153884","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153884","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8191d67bb3335e6f63a0fec08313b105ec0f1306821ff1b0f811db78d074f8e41e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:28:36 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12:38:56","影片長度":"00:10:20","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T12:28:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:38:56+08:00","duration":620,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1068,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時28分）好，謝謝主席，我們是不是請國發會劉主委？"],["主席：好，我們請主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員午安。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。主委，今天的議題是AI的議題，這幾個禮拜以來，整個臺灣都被AI的浪潮席捲，事實上今天也是討論了包括針對AI的產業應用，甚至人才培育，講了很多，那我想先就教主委，就AI這個產業，公部門部分有哪些是從公部門就可以開始採用這樣的AI技術？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，公部門很早就開始使用生成式AI做一些資料的分析、整理跟查詢，因為這有安全跟效率兩個構面，針對安全面，國科會有提出了一個使用生成式AI的參考指引，確保在資料上的安全。另外，在政府的應用部分，目前數發部有一個智慧政府辦公室，專門在做整個公部門數位化跟智慧化的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以說，公部門的部分當然是用生成式AI，包括未來很多公部門的一些政策的制定，甚至包括來立法院做最簡單的報告，是不是未來都會用AI來做基礎的一些架構？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。我們上次稍微聊了一下，幾乎每個部會都在使用中。"],["蔡委員易餘：每個單位都在使用？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：然後政府特別成立了智慧政府辦公室，專門在推動我們整個智慧政府的發展。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。所以現在公部門的教育訓練這一塊，大家都會使用嗎？還是說，會用的人會用，不會的人就讓他們自己去學習？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：以本會而言，我們全部都有上過課。"],["蔡委員易餘：全部都有上過課？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。所以大家大概都會去使用。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這是第一個問題。","第二個要就教主委的就是，所謂的生成式AI，就是說它的生成必須要有人餵資料，那這部分會不會涉及到政府機密資訊外洩的問題？如何去預防？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。這裡面有兩個構面，如同我前面講的，當我們在查詢、整理資料的時候，怎麼樣做到安全，國科會已經給了一個指引。","第二個部分，就我了解，國科會現在正在做一個AI基本法，目的就是希望做到主權AI，讓臺灣的資料能夠保存在臺灣而不會被其他的地方拿到。進一步的說明，當然我們可以請國科會來補充，但是就我了解，目前政府很積極在做這個部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果涉及到機密資料已經跑進去了呢？如果涉及到真的有一些屬於比較機敏性的資料已經在AI的基本資料裡面，但是你也沒辦法把它抽離啊。那這部分你要怎麼樣去做未來的預防？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：政府目前現在是有在做資料治理的管控，這個資料治理管控是不會讓機密資料進去的。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以必須一開始先管控好嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想這個應該也不只臺灣啦，全世界大概都會因應，因為這種AI就是資料怎麼產生，資料的來源庫是什麼。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們有這樣的一些指引，事實上，多去參考國外怎麼做，這個也是一個很必要的過程，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主權AI的確是目前臺灣很重要的一件事情。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。再來就教主委第三個問題，臺灣過去也有在發展類似臺版的ChatGPT的AI，叫做TAIDE，TAIDE跟ChatGPT比較不一樣的是它比較有臺灣味，它的使用可能是以繁體中文，然後可能比較有一些臺灣的語言，本土語言的一些特色，但是畢竟市場有限，所以如果要導向國際的話，可能還要更多類似英語的資料，或者是其他的一些資料的涉入，所以未來臺灣的政策會在開發自己的AI軟體，還是說，畢竟現在黃仁勳也帶了臺灣的產業嘛，對不對？就是在這兩個抉擇上，我們還是要開發自己的軟體呢？還是就讓它順其自然？業界本來就是強者恆強，如果不夠強的話，自然會被淘汰。國發會你們具體的策略是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我有看過TAIDE的整個展示，的確臺灣需要有自己的工具，原因是不論是用臺語也好，或者是用中文也好，它所得到的資料的精準度都會比國外的產品好。英文的部分國外本來就會有，所以基本上它會兼具英文、兼具中文、兼具臺語，那它所能夠服務臺灣人民的資料查詢的精準度，以我看到的展示，都會比國外的來得好很多，對於服務國民的一些政府服務，也都可以做得比較好一點。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以TAIDE的優勢就是比較本土化，我們的臺語或是我們說的一些方言，這一套軟體是有辦法掌握的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是它的掌握在專業度上可能會不夠，不像其他軟體餵的資料可能比較多，而且比較多元，可能會有這樣的問題，所以主委你的說法是說，這一套軟體還是有它的優勢，所以未來我們還是會扶持這一套軟體，讓它繼續壯大囉？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。就我了解，國科會目前的做法是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。除了扶持它之外，我們要怎麼鼓勵大家使用？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在應該是有一個發展進程，成熟之後，應該就會開始開放出來，是不是我請國科會來說明？"],["蔡委員易餘：請國科會來說明一下。"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，基本上TAIDE這個計畫原來是到4月底，可是我們會把它延續到12月底，就是讓TAIDE資料的收集和模型的訓練，能夠更有臺灣味。明年開始，我們會加強它的推廣跟應用，目前來講，調整後的model，我們會把新的版本都公布，然後讓業界和公務機關都能夠下載，經過微調之後，就可以來使用。"],["蔡委員易餘：過去類似這樣的，在幾年前LINE剛興起的時候，臺灣也有一度說要去開發我們自己的通訊軟體，但是後來也是卡在市場因素，整個市場大家就是都用LINE，所以臺灣自己的通訊軟體開發後來在當時也無疾而終。所以我現在也擔心你們現在去開發這一套TAIDE，但是它的市場優勢究竟在哪邊？以及它這個市場優勢，是否足以讓它未來可以在這個競爭的環境中支撐下去？這件事情我是打問號的。所以你們如果沒有講出一套未來要怎麼去推廣、去行銷，我感覺起來，我們這一套軟體要怎麼跟ChatGPT競爭？ChatGPT現在還在不斷地成長中，我們要怎麼跟人家競爭啊？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個有兩個部分，它跟LINE比較不像，這裡面其實更有助於服務臺灣人民，如我們鄉下的長輩，其實他們需要用臺語來服務，或者是用客語來服務，所以它對於本土性的服務，對於做智慧政府或者是廠商要做智慧醫療、智慧零售，都會有很好的貢獻。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以你的意思是說，它的優勢就是對於臺語、對於方言的適應度是更高的，辨別度也會比較好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。東南亞市場的華人市場，我們都還是可以進入。","另外，因為它的邏輯是一樣的，它轉回到英文跟中文的時候，在華人市場跟海外市場，還是有機會做進展，所以它跟LINE會比較不太一樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然。我說LINE只是一個舉例啦，未必是類似的狀況。但是我只是要跟你強調的就是說，我們既然要發展這套軟體，我們要怎麼把它的優勢發揮到最好？我相信ChatGPT總有一天它的臺語功能也是會變強，哪一天它覺得這一塊有市場的時候，它就會在哪一塊強化，等它那一塊強化的時候，我們的優勢就會跟著消失，所以我們既然要在這個軟體上要競逐的話，我們一定要有一個推動的重點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這可以再研究看看，我是給你們鼓勵啦，但是我也知道，以我們的市場，我們要開發出足以支撐下去並可以賺錢的軟體，那是很困難的，我也是鼓勵你們。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來，我們請羅智強委員詢答。謝謝"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","蔡易餘","羅智強","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教\n育部首長就「為掌握生成式 AI 等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化 AI 生態系及充\n實 AI 人才與產業 AI 化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用 AI 賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.47596875,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.08721875,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.613468750000003,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.558468750000003,"end":27.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.50346875,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.57346875,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.34971875,"end":48.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.13721875,"end":54.267218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.009718750000005,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.211593750000006,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.751593750000005,"end":60.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.73034375,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.96659375,"end":81.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.40471875,"end":65.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.67221875,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.57409375,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.33284375000001,"end":101.50034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.77034375000001,"end":112.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.39721875000001,"end":113.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.41409375,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.44784375,"end":113.73471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.53534375000001,"end":120.90659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.69909375,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.42846875,"end":129.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.46221875,"end":131.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.47909375,"end":130.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.60534375,"end":138.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.55784375000002,"end":143.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.26596875,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.46846875,"end":169.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.80971875,"end":146.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.79909375,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.32096875000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.22784375,"end":171.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.10221875000002,"end":199.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.37534375,"end":202.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.13846875000002,"end":212.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.35221875000002,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.47034375,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.74409375000002,"end":216.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.35159375,"end":225.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.70034375,"end":226.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.73409375000003,"end":226.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.24034375000002,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.03346875000003,"end":228.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.07971875,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.28221875000003,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.58971875,"end":251.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.39284375000003,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.28721875000002,"end":255.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.16034375,"end":252.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.11346875,"end":255.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.55221875,"end":255.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.17659375,"end":260.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.51346875,"end":261.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.28534375000004,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.71971875,"end":270.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.46971875,"end":274.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.97534375000004,"end":278.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.95784375,"end":291.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.36096875000004,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.59971875,"end":303.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.13534375,"end":330.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.34221875000003,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.16471875,"end":336.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.19784375,"end":336.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.60284375000003,"end":356.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.80221875,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.32721875000004,"en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嗯 主委那因為今天這個議題是這個AI的議題那這幾個禮拜來大概整個台灣都是席捲著這個AI的這個浪潮齁"},{"start":39.472,"end":58.861,"text":"事實上今天也是討論了包括針對AI的產業應用甚至人才培育講了很多我想先就教主委就AI的這個產業公部門部分有哪些是公部門可以開始來採用AI的技術"},{"start":61.179,"end":81.135,"text":"跟委員報告公部門很早就開始使用生成式AI做一些資料的分析整理跟查詢所以國科會也因為這樣它有因為它這也有安全跟效率兩個構面安全面國科會有提出了一個使用生成式AI的參考指引確保在資料上的安全"},{"start":81.835,"end":92.61,"text":"那另外在政府的應用部分目前是數發部有一個智慧政府辦公室專門在做這個整個公部門數位化的跟智慧化的部分"},{"start":93.396,"end":112.197,"text":"就公部門部分當然是用生成式AI嘛那這包括說未來很多公部門的一些政策的制定那甚至說一些包括說可能來立法院來做的最簡單的這樣的一些報告是不是都未來會用AI然後來做基礎的一些架構"},{"start":113.502,"end":128.854,"text":"是的 各單位就我的我們上次稍微大家聊了一下幾乎每個部會都在使用中每個單位都在使用然後速發部也特別政府特別成立了智慧政府辦公室專門在推動我們整個智慧政府的發展"},{"start":129.994,"end":146.019,"text":"所以現在公部門的教育訓練這一塊就是說大家都會使用嗎?還是說會用的人會用,不會的人就讓他們自己去學習?以本會而言,我們普遍都有全部都有上過課全部都有上過課,所以大家都大概會去使用"},{"start":146.519,"end":167.1,"text":"好那這第一個齁那第二個就叫這個主委就是說因為這個是生成式AI嘛齁他主要還是所謂的生成式就是說必須他的生成要有他的未資料齁所謂的未資料那這部分會不會有涉及到政府的這個機密的一些資訊外洩的一個問題"},{"start":167.92,"end":191.673,"text":"那如何去預防?謝謝委員,這裡面有兩個構面,就像如同我前面講的當我們在查詢整理資料的時候,怎麼樣做到安全,國科會已經給了一個指引那第二個部分是,就我了解,國科會現在正在做一個AI基本法它的目的就是希望做到主權AI,讓台灣的資料能夠保存在台灣而不會被其他地方拿到"},{"start":192.954,"end":215.151,"text":"這個進一步說明當然我們可以請國科會來補充但是就我了解目前政府很積極在做這個補充那如果涉及到機密資料已經跑進去的呢?如果涉及到真的有一些屬於比較機密、機敏性的結果它已經在AI的基本資料裡面但是你也沒辦法把它抽離那這部分你要怎麼樣去做未來的預防?"},{"start":217.549,"end":238.943,"text":"這裡以政府目前現在是有在做資料治理的管控那這個資料治理管控是不會讓機密資料進去的所以一開始就必須一開始先管控好嗎我想這個應該也不只台灣啦全世界大概都會硬硬的這樣因為它本來就是這種AI就是資料的一些怎麼產生嘛那資料的來源庫是什麼"},{"start":239.423,"end":260.698,"text":"沒錯那我想這部分應該是台灣我們有這樣的一些指引事實上多去參考國外怎麼做這個也是一個很必要的一個過程好不好主權AI的確是目前台灣很重要的一件事情好那第三個再來就叫這個主委那當然是說台灣過去"},{"start":262.355,"end":270.6,"text":"也有在發展類似台版的這個叫做CHAT、GDP的台版的叫做TIDE"},{"start":271.926,"end":295.658,"text":"那這樣的一個泰德的這樣的一個他的跟確實比較不一樣是他比較靠台灣比啦以他的使用的可能是以繁體中文然後可能比較有一些台灣的一些語言本土語言的一些特色那但是呢畢竟市場有限所以如果要打向國際的話他可能還要更多的"},{"start":296.699,"end":302.692,"text":"類似一些英語的資料或其他資料的涉入所以未來"},{"start":304.495,"end":328.317,"text":"臺灣的政策會在這一個這一個開發自己的這個AI的軟體還是說因為畢竟現在黃仁勳他也是帶著臺灣的產業對不對所以還是我們就是說在這兩個抉擇上我們還是要發展自己的開發自己的軟體還是說就讓他順其自然業界本來這個業界本來就是強者很強如果"},{"start":330.439,"end":335.724,"text":"不夠強的話自然會被淘汰那這個國發會你們的具體的策略是怎樣"},{"start":336.853,"end":366.267,"text":"這個部分我有整個看過TED的展示的確台灣需要有自己的工具原因是他無論是用台語也好或者是用中文也好他所得到的資料的精準度都會比國外的產品好那英文的部分國外本來就會有所以呢基本上他會兼具英文兼具中文兼具台語那他所能夠服務台灣人民的"},{"start":366.827,"end":383.011,"text":"資料查詢的精準度我看到的展示都會比國外的來得好很多那對服務國民、人民的一些政府服務也都可以做得會比較好一點所以泰德他的優勢就是說他比較本土化啦可能是我們的台語啦或是我們講的一些方言的東西"},{"start":386.292,"end":406.512,"text":"他這一套軟體他是有辦法掌握的但是他的掌握度總是在專業度上可能會不夠不會像其他的軟體他為的資料可能比較多而且比較多元可能會有這樣的問題那所以主委你的說法是說這一套軟體還是有它的優勢所以未來我們還是會扶持這一套軟體讓它繼續壯大囉"},{"start":409.798,"end":416.835,"text":"就我了解國科會目前的做法是這樣好那除了除了扶持他之外可是我們要怎麼鼓勵大家使用"},{"start":418.303,"end":440.84,"text":"他現在等到他們應該是有一個發展進程然後成熟之後他應該就會開始開放出來是不是我請國科會這邊來說明一下跟委員報告那基本上台德這個計畫原來是到4月底可是我們會把它延續到12月底就是讓台德他在這個資料的收集還有模型的訓練能夠各號台灣V"},{"start":443.402,"end":462.891,"text":"然後明年開始我們會加強它的推廣跟應用目前來講我們這個調整後的那個model我們是會把新的版本都會公布然後讓這個業界還有讓那個什麼我們講的公務機關都能夠下載然後經過微調之後就可以來使用"},{"start":464.585,"end":493.96,"text":"就是說過去類似這樣的我想在幾年前就是說像那個LINE剛在興起的時候台灣也有一度說要去開發我們自己的通訊軟體那但是後來也是卡在市場因素整個市場大家就是都用LINE所以台灣的通訊軟體後來在當時也差不多無聲而起了所以我現在也很高興你現在去開發這一套泰德但是"},{"start":494.5,"end":510.814,"text":"他的市場的優勢究竟在哪邊以及他這個市場優勢足以讓他未來是可以支撐在這個競爭的環境中這件事情我是問號的所以你若沒有講出一套你未來要怎麼去推廣去行銷我感覺起來我們這套軟體要怎麼跟"},{"start":514.262,"end":540.653,"text":"講白了要怎麼跟CHAT的GDP他們現在還不斷的在成長中我們要怎麼跟人家競爭啊這個有兩個部分喔他跟LINE比較不像喔這裡面其實對服務台灣人民喔我們整個是大人喔其實他需要用台語來服務或是客語來服務啦那所以呢他對於本土性的服務對於做智慧政府或者是廠商要做智慧醫療智慧零售都會有很好的對主委你的意思說我們的優勢就是說"},{"start":542.094,"end":556.762,"text":"他對於台語對於方言的適應度是更高的那將來辨別度也會比較好對東南亞市場的華人市場我們都還是可以進入那另外因為他的邏輯是一樣的他轉回到英文跟中文的時候在華人市場跟海外市場還是有機會做進展"},{"start":559.443,"end":578.534,"text":"所以他跟LINE會比較不太一樣當然我LINE只是一個舉例但是未必是類似的狀況但是我只要跟強調就是說我們既然沒發展這一套軟體我們要怎麼把它的優勢發揮到我相信CHAT的GDP總有一天他的台語的功能也許會變強"},{"start":580.035,"end":590.708,"text":"哪一天他覺得這一塊有市場的時候,他就會在哪一塊強化?等他那一塊強化的時候,我們的優勢就會對得起所以我們既然要在這個軟體上要做競逐的話,我們一定要有一個我們要如何提供的一個重點,好不好?"},{"start":599.037,"end":606.441,"text":"我認為這可以再研究看看我是給你們鼓勵啦但是我也知道說以我們的市場我們要開發出足以支撐然後讓它能夠賺錢的軟體那是很困難的我也是在你們鼓勵啦好 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謝謝主席 我們有請鄭部長好 鄭部長 謝謝"},{"start":20.342,"end":42.941,"text":"部長午安委員午安今天我們的專題報告是有關校園的這個毒品入侵校園還有減少暴力案件的相關的專題報告那有關校園這個霸凌的部分我想在此跟部長您還有我們相關部會的這個首長做一個研究探討"},{"start":45.162,"end":74.102,"text":"對於這個議題我相信在我們從以前到現在都一直不斷的都在檢討討論可是終究沒辦法來根治這個校園霸凌的相關問題那就先前網路媒體所公布的這個民調在教育文化的這個政策當中民眾認為新政府最優先應該要解決的問題還是校園霸凌的這個事件那再來才是人才培育和教育的改革"},{"start":75.143,"end":93.179,"text":"最近這個重大的校園霸凌事件頻傳那尤其透過這個手機去拍攝然後將影片上傳到這個社群媒體再被新聞拿來做引用更是會造成這個廣泛的傳播效果那在上個禮拜宜蘭縣"},{"start":94.71,"end":121.687,"text":"也有一所知名的國中跆拳道隊的問題發生了令人憤慨的霸凌事件這個內容是跆拳道隊內的一名學弟對學姊施暴拳打腳踢並且這個影片在宜蘭地方的社群廣為流傳我想請教部長您對於這個案件有沒有掌握相關的內容"},{"start":125.237,"end":128.119,"text":"這兩名學生 針對這個部分 部長您了解 這兩名學生是不是已經正常上課了"},{"start":149.761,"end":150.562,"text":"學校有沒有啟動相關的輔導機制?"},{"start":167.952,"end":185.736,"text":"總許我這邊報告,這邊已經跟宜蘭縣教育署有積極的聯繫了解整個的來龍去脈不過因為還在調查當中我們就在這邊不方便多說但是我們的確有請校方第一個維護雙方學生的安全還有以及他們雙方的輔導的機制都已經啟動"},{"start":189.257,"end":205.583,"text":"市報的學生因為兩名都是跆拳道隊的隊員會不會影響到他們以後參賽的資格目前應該還不至於因為這部分比較深層的原因我們還是需要去做處理以正面輔導這部分走向為主"},{"start":207.064,"end":232.122,"text":"那我想在此我想請部長對於一個問題的重視因為兩兆學生都是未成年那網路上仍然有許多這個流傳的這個未打上馬賽克的這個影片在他們這個被施暴的過程裡面的這個影像都還在流傳當中我們是不是可以要求相關這個網路社群平台可以下架"},{"start":234.045,"end":245.977,"text":"是的,我想我們已經在6月9日就向iWIN網路希望能夠申請已經申請這個影片的下架那我們有沒有去追蹤看看是不是真的都下架了"},{"start":248.371,"end":271.733,"text":"委員報告下架這個歷來一定都會下架現在就是有些是已經先被扣起來了好那這部分再請我們署長就這個持續去追蹤看看那因為從我們中央的這個教育部到地方的教育處再到校園從這個防制校園霸凌是需要我們每一個面向"},{"start":272.614,"end":274.975,"text":"我相信這樣子才可以提升我們教育的環境部長您認同嗎"},{"start":299.701,"end":304.894,"text":"我完全認同這個委員的說法這是我們努力的 精進的好 謝謝部長 也謝謝署長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153882","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153882","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193b7c2d7ad3b20f4659a48fe1a1d57c38f1306821ff1b0f810c7a3ba716382fef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:22:24 - 12:33:06","影片長度":"00:10:42","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T12:22:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:33:06+08:00","duration":642,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1001,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時22分）主席，有請國安局、海委會、海巡署、法務部、NCC及中華電信。"],["主席：請以上單位就備詢台。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["羅委員智強：局長，我最近有一個感慨，突然發現我們的國安戰略叫做對內天眼、對外無眼，局長應該是不認同這個國安戰略吧！對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，委員說明一下。"],["羅委員智強：好，說明一下。對外就是無眼啦！無眼之國啦！海巡竟然發生以前的陸艇艇長可以開著快艇長驅直入，猶如不設防一樣的衝到了我們的淡水碼頭，請問我們國安、國防及海巡的眼睛長在哪裡啊？"],["蔡局長明彥：關於這個部分，剛剛海巡已經說明過，事實上，該艘快艇……"],["羅委員智強：我講一個結果，衝上來了沒有？進來了沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：在6浬就已經掌控他了。"],["羅委員智強：掌控他？更嚴重！眼睜睜的看著他進來。我問局長，馬政府的時候中共軍機有越過海峽中線嗎？有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，時空環境不太一樣。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝啦！你們無能啦！時空環境不一樣！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，時空環境不一樣。"],["羅委員智強：有逼近24浬鄰接區嗎？有沒有？也是時空環境不一樣，我幫你講啦！有到12浬臨海線嗎？有沒有？時空環境不一樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，而且中共軍事擴張也越來越激烈。"],["羅委員智強：現在非常厲害，今天在我們國安系統及海巡眼皮底下，直接就衝到岸防來了、到岸上來了！海巡署，我到現在還搞不清楚，你們的說法可不可以一致一點啊？3種版本，海巡署在記者會上說6浬發現陸艇未即時攔截登檢，但岸巡人員快速掌握、嚴陣以待，快艇靠岸時逮人。海巡署北部分署的新聞稿，淡水渡船碼頭交通船擦撞，業者報案，安檢所前往察看後逮人。阮姓嫌犯的說法是他把快艇靠岸之後，自己走到岸上，請路過民眾打電話報案。署長，光你們自己的單位就有二個不一樣的版本，到底哪一個版本是真的？A、B、C哪一個是真的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，我們北部分署跟海巡署發布的版本是一致的，只不過是民眾在10點54分報案，第一次有……"],["羅委員智強：對啦！現行犯的說法是錯的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：第二次我們沒有寫上去。跟委員報告，時間是這樣，我們9點44分雷達監控到之後，第一時間要通報艦艇攔截，他沒有通報；接下來跟委員報告，10點20分我們守望哨就發現……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有業者報案？"],["謝副署長慶欽：業者報案是10點54分。"],["羅委員智強：有嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們在10點20分接到……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我告訴你，基本上我也很欣賞你們啦！反正已經全盤掌握就放人上岸，就這樣，就這麼簡單。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，這個是我們疏失。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，今天不要說海巡，前陣子發生無人機到哨所上面去丟放傳單，結果說因為是岡哨不是營區，這也是我們政府的說法。剛剛張啓楷說不要再對內找敵人，我們國安戰略是對外放敵人啦，今天喊了這麼多的國防、國安措施，對外就是「無能」兩個字來形容。但是對內，我非常欣賞我們的國安戰略，我就要問一下中華電信，中華電信，請問一下，是方今天到底掌握了什麼資料，它的伺服器裡面有民眾什麼樣的資料？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，如同我之前的說明，是方它本身是……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，它可以拿去做輿情監控，它的資料來源是哪裡？中華電信嘛！"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，中華電信的資料一定是留在中華電信公司。"],["羅委員智強：一定留在中華電信公司啊？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["羅委員智強：請國安局長，我們今天看到從王義川開始，他能夠精確的掌握資料，雖然中華電信否認，是方竟然也否認，可是昭昭然的事實就是有一筆資料可以拿去做分析，分析人流、分析不同場域的政黨傾向重疊度。請問這樣的科偵工具，我不知道我們國安局有沒有掌握？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這部分檢方已經在查辦了，我想還是尊重司法單位……"],["羅委員智強：好，我要問一下，依照現行通保法規定，避免國家安全遭受危害，國安局、移民署可以對幫助境外敵對勢力進行通訊偵查，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員智強：沈伯洋說，中共可能威脅在中國做生意或妻小在中國的人，希望這些人在開戰時進行一些任務，他認為高風險群有幾十萬人，所以要管好，然後主張對這第五縱隊的高風險群控管、偵防，你認同嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分我們要看司法警察機關，只要他們有相關的證據，跟國安局提請監察……"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有收到高層指示來監控這些高風險群？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們剛剛在報告當中都說明了，要進行相關監察的話，必須遵行相關的法律和行政程序。"],["羅委員智強：我們現在針對高風險群的監控是什麼樣的作為？我們對陸生、陸配、台商會不會視為高風險群進行偵防？現在有沒有視為高風險群進行偵防？會不會將其特別區隔出來視為高風險群？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分我剛剛一直在強調的是，要由司法警察機關，再由偵辦的國安單位在過程當中……"],["羅委員智強：我不是講個案喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有需要的話再報請國安局進行……"],["羅委員智強：局長，停！我不是講個案喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是有沒有把這群人區隔。"],["蔡局長明彥：我在講的是法律程序，我講的是法律程序。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，有沒有？有就有、沒有就沒有，當然今天抓到蔡某某通匪、通敵，我當然個案就要查你啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以我們看的是案子。"],["羅委員智強：不查就失職啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以我們在審核過程看的是案子。"],["羅委員智強：可是你有沒有針對36萬名陸配列為高風險群特別監控，有沒有？目前有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如委員提到了這些身分的民眾，他有涉入或是有涉及到中共滲透的話，我們才會啟動偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有普遍性，36萬有沒有？你到現在連這個問題都不敢回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們就依法偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：那我就嚴重懷疑你有。"],["蔡局長明彥：依法偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：你就是有監控36萬。"],["蔡局長明彥：依法偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：我這樣子講你，你接受嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：依法偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有監控36萬？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有監控那麼多人，沒有36萬。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你！直接回答就好了。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們監控的是依照案情需要……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你為什麼不行，因為這叫做無區別……"],["蔡局長明彥：法律本來就……"],["羅委員智強：對，就法律不許可嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我跟委員講，因為貴院通過的通保法，強調的一種概念是在於最小侵害的原則，這是我們依法……"],["羅委員智強：廢話，我也知道，我還需要你解釋？"],["蔡局長明彥：是這樣。"],["羅委員智強：我講的就是今天有沒有通案？你已經告訴我答案就好啦！我要這個答案，你沒有啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！依照案情來審核。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：依照案情審核，依法行政！"],["羅委員智強：但你可以停下，我沒有要問你問題了。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：那很簡單，沈伯洋就是廢話！他要求針對高風險群，就是針對群別來進行監控，我謝謝你今天蔡明彥說沒有啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重委員的討論。"],["羅委員智強：接下來我要講，自由時報說，這也是沈伯洋講的，如果沒有針對這些高風險群進行控管、人別控管，臺灣就會完蛋！完蛋了沒？你們也沒有針對高風險群進行群別的控管啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：依照證據，偵辦相關案件依照相關的法律條件來進行偵辦。"],["羅委員智強：你不要問A答B。"],["蔡局長明彥：事實上就是這樣，事實上就是這樣，每個案子……"],["羅委員智強：那你要推翻你前面說沒有針對群別做所謂的政治偵防嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們不會針對群別。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們依照的是案情。"],["羅委員智強：那臺灣完蛋了沒？"],["蔡局長明彥：依照案情。"],["羅委員智強：臺灣完蛋了沒？"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重委員相關的討論。"],["羅委員智強：臺灣完蛋了沒嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是言論自由，我們尊重。"],["羅委員智強：臺灣完蛋了沒？臺灣完蛋了沒？答不出來！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，就尊重相關討論。"],["羅委員智強：你不敢得罪沈伯洋，這麼簡單！"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重相關討論。"],["羅委員智強：接下來我要講，事實上我們會發現，我們的科技偵查法裡面也有規範，為確保國家安全，維護社會秩序，制定本法。我想請問局長，GPS定位追蹤、M化汽車定位、使用熱顯像儀等科技偵查手段，是不是未來就會使用在國安方面偵防，還是現在已經在使用中？"],["蔡局長明彥：就相關的偵防手段來講，我們並不是偵查單位，必須要看相關的……"],["羅委員智強：你會不會用？"],["蔡局長明彥：有司法警察權的單位來進行。"],["羅委員智強：你會不會用？以後會不會用？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們沒有司法警察權、我們沒有司法警察權。"],["羅委員智強：沒有用嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局沒有。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝你。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：在通訊監察方面，針對通保法，監聽結束之後，換言之，我們國安局相關的國家安全單位都不用做監聽就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員指的是……"],["羅委員智強：監聽，我講通保法的監聽。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們剛剛……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們剛剛講到的是，只要司法警察機關有這個需要，送到國安局來審查通訊偵查的必要性的話，我們進行審查，再送請高等法院法官同意，我們來執行。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！沒錯啊！所以你們也會執行監聽嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們不是執行單位。"],["羅委員智強：只是要有一個法律程序嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：委員，國安局是審核機關，我們不是執行監聽的機關。"],["羅委員智強：好，我要問一下，就算你是審核機關。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["羅委員智強：相關為執行國安業務進行的監聽，事後會不會通知當事人？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個要看案情狀況，依照法律規定……"],["羅委員智強：案情？法律規定要通知啊！"],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說明一下對外就是無眼啦無眼之國啦"},{"start":54.79,"end":81.227,"text":"海巡發生進來發生露艇以前的艇長可以開著快艇長驅直路猶如不設防一樣衝到了我們淡水碼頭請問我們的國安以及我們的國防跟海巡的眼睛長在哪裡這部分應該海巡剛有說明到了事實上該稍微我講一個結果衝上來了沒有進來了沒有在六海裡就掌控他了掌控他更嚴重"},{"start":83.001,"end":108.467,"text":"眼睜睜看著他進來我問局長馬政府的時候中共軍機有越過海峽中線嗎有沒有對時空環境不太一樣謝謝啦你們無能啦時空環境不一樣有時空環境不一樣來有越過有逼近24海浬林街區嗎有沒有也時空環境不一樣我幫你講啦有到12海浬林海線嗎有沒有時空環境不一樣對而且中共軍機現在非常厲害啦"},{"start":110.879,"end":119.774,"text":"現在在你今天我們國安系統海巡眼皮底下直接就衝到暗房來啦到暗上來啦"},{"start":120.711,"end":148.705,"text":"而且報告局長我們請海巡署一下我到現在搞不清楚海巡署你的說法可不可以一致一點三種版本海巡署記者會說六里發現陸艇為及時攔截燈檢但暗巡人員快速掌握延鎮以待快艇靠岸時逮人然後呢海巡署北部分署新聞稿是淡水渡船碼頭交通船擦撞業者報案"},{"start":149.685,"end":168.288,"text":"安檢所前往查看後逮人然後軟性嫌犯說法是他把快頂靠岸之後自己走上岸上請路過民眾打電話報案署長光你們自己單位就兩個版本不一樣到底哪個版本是真的啊ABC哪個真的啊那個跟委員報告我們"},{"start":169.557,"end":191.576,"text":"北部分署跟海軍發布的版本是一次的只不過是民眾賽10.54報案第一次有講所以軟信侵犯的說法是錯的第二次我們沒有寫上去那跟委員報告實際是這樣我們9點44分雷達監控到之後第一時間要通報艦艇攔截他沒有通報接下來跟委員報告10點20我們守望掃描研究發現"},{"start":193.334,"end":220.751,"text":"業者報案是10點54分有嗎10點54分我們在10點20分我告訴你基本上我也很欣賞你們反正已經全盤掌握就放人上岸就這樣就這麼簡單沒關係我告訴你基本上你不要講說今天海巡前陣子發生無人機到哨所上面去丟放傳單結果呢說因為是鋼哨不是營區這也是我們政府的說法"},{"start":222.598,"end":242.509,"text":"對外阿 剛剛我們張祺敢說不要在對內找敵人啦我們國安戰略是對外放敵人啦任何的今天喊了這麼多的國防、國安措施對外就是無能兩個字來形容但是對內我非常欣賞我們的國安戰略阿我就要問一下中華電信阿中華電信"},{"start":244.385,"end":271.848,"text":"請問一下,四方今天到底掌握什麼資料?他的伺服器裡面有民眾的什麼樣的資料在裡面?跟你們報告,如果之前的說明,四方他本身是我告訴你,他可以拿去做輿情監控,他就掌握,他的資料來源是哪裡?中華電信吧?報告委員,中華電信的資料一定是留在中華電信公司"},{"start":272.625,"end":282.364,"text":"一定留在中華電信公司啊那我問你吼今天我們前面在講為什麼講說你們今天來請國安局長我們今天就看到吼"},{"start":283.742,"end":304.967,"text":"從王毅川開始,他能夠精確地掌握資料,當然中華電信否認啦,四方進來你也否認啦可是招招攔的事實就是有一筆資料可以拿去做分析,分析人流,分析今天不同場域的政黨傾向的重疊度啊請問這樣的科技,這樣的科證的工具,我不知道我們的國安局有沒有掌握"},{"start":305.809,"end":327.862,"text":"這部份檢方已經在查辦了我想還是尊重司法單位好 我要問一下依照現行通保法規定避免國家安全遭受危害國安局移民署可以幫助對幫助境外敵對勢力進行通訊偵查對不對是那沈博洋說中共可能威脅在中國做生意或蹊蹺在中國人希望這些人在開戰時進行一些任務他認為這高風險群有幾十萬人"},{"start":332.805,"end":340.649,"text":"所以要管好,然後主張對這第五縱隊的高風險群來控管、偵防,你認同嗎?你有沒有受到高層指示來監控這些高風險群?我們現在針對這些高風險群的監控是什麼樣作為?"},{"start":356.96,"end":372.587,"text":"我們對陸生、陸配、台商會不會視為高風險群進行偵訪?現在有沒有視為高風險群進行偵訪?所以會不會把特別區隔出來作為高風險群?這個部分我剛剛一直在強調的是要由司法警察機關我問你嗎?有沒有?我不是講個案喔!局長提!我不是講個案喔!對!"},{"start":378.169,"end":379.089,"text":"假如委員提到的這些身份的民眾他有涉入或是有涉及到"},{"start":403.279,"end":407.602,"text":"有沒有普遍性36萬有沒有你到現在連這個問題都不敢回答那我就嚴重懷疑你有你就是有監控36萬我這樣講你你接受嗎你有沒有監控36萬謝謝你直接回答就好了我告訴你為什麼不行"},{"start":424.045,"end":445.024,"text":"法律本來就是要...我跟委員講因為貴院通過的通保法強調的一種概念是在於最小侵害的原則這是我們依法...你不廢話我也知道我還需要你解釋是是這樣我講的就是你今天有沒有通案你已經告訴我答案就好啦我一樣就答你沒有阿對啊依照案情來整合依照案情整合依法行政謝謝"},{"start":447.847,"end":461.635,"text":"那很簡單沈博洋就是廢話他要求是針對高風險群就是針對群別來進行監控我謝謝你今天蔡明彥說沒有啦然後接下來我要講自由時報說這個也是沈博洋講如果沒有針對這些高風險群進行控管人別控管台灣就會完蛋啦"},{"start":475.438,"end":497.714,"text":"臺灣完蛋了沒?你們也沒有針對高風險群進行群別的控管啊?依照證據,偵辦相關案件依照相關的法律條件來進行偵辦你不要給我問A答B事實上就是這樣你現在已經前面跟我們要推翻了你前面沒有針對群別做所謂的政治偵探不會針對群別我們依照的是案情那臺灣完蛋了沒?依照案情臺灣完蛋了沒?臺灣完蛋了沒?臺灣完蛋了沒?"},{"start":502.807,"end":513.716,"text":"馬上完蛋了沒,答不出來,你不敢得罪沈博雅嘛,這麼簡單接下來我要講,事實上我們會發現我們的科技偵查法裡面也有規範"},{"start":515.287,"end":537.555,"text":"就是為確保國家安全維護社會秩序制定本法那我想請問局長GPS定位追蹤、N化汽車定位、使用熱血象儀等科技偵查手段是不是未來就會使用在國安方面偵訪還是現在已經在使用中?就相關的偵訪手段來講我們並不是偵查單位那必須要看有司法警察用的單位來進行"},{"start":539.995,"end":559.633,"text":"我們沒有司法警察權我們沒有司法警察權國安局沒有那在通訊這個監察方面那針對所謂的通保法監聽結束之後所以換言之國安局相關的我們國家安全單位都不用做監聽就對了我已經指的是監聽我講通保法監聽"},{"start":561.435,"end":577.805,"text":"對,我們剛剛講到的是,只要司法警察機關有這個需要,送到國安局來審查通訊偵查的必要性的話,我們進行審查,再送請高等法院,法官來同意。對阿,沒錯阿,所以你們也會執行監聽嗎?只是要有一個法律程序嗎?"},{"start":579.796,"end":604.564,"text":"國安局是審核機關,我們不是執行國安局的機關。好,我要問一下,就算你是審核機關,相關為執行國安業務進行的監聽事後會不會通知當事人?這個要看案情的狀況,依照法律規定,沒有,看案情的狀況,三個月評估一次,法律規定是這樣子的。法律規定要通知,事後要通知,這是法律規定的。要由法院來通知,沒有,沒有,理清了委員也請看清楚法律。"},{"start":605.024,"end":629.219,"text":"這要由法院在結案之後,針對案子的決定制的通知。﹗不廢話,在結案之後啊,偵辦中不會通知我也知道啊﹗是,沒有錯,法律是這樣寫﹗對啊,那你前面要給我拗了半天,拗什麼啊﹗我沒有啊,就是舉照法律的情形﹗好啦,最後一件事情啊,最後一件事情,我要跟你講今天授予我們國安單位,來用國家來去做所謂的那個安全的一些偵查,是有必要的,我支持啊"},{"start":630.111,"end":630.251,"text":"好,謝謝接下來"}]}},{"id":"153881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153881","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81915830d823d89cb2b182e407f268492bcf1306821ff1b0f81d506cc573e17a0395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:24:51 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12:30:54","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T12:24:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:30:54+08:00","duration":363,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":988,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時24分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：彭主委好。彭主委，本席今天想要請教主委，因為現在詐騙的手段日新月異，有關第三方支付這個部分，其實去年一場基層檢察官的研討會當中，就有檢察官大力砲轟第三方支付洗錢案，因為金管會針對第三方支付這個部分，好像沒有什麼管理，日均代理收付營業額20億元以下的業者，不用比照金融機關監管，造成第三方支付成為詐騙的溫床。所以本席想請教彭主委，未來針對第三方支付，你們要怎麼管理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實，我們當時在做的有兩個部分，一個是電子支付，一個是第三方支付，金管會是對金融機構進行管理，因為第三方支付的型態非常多，而且是一般商業模式，所以我們採用量能管理，當你達到一定的量，當它的影響力達到一定程度以後，我們就納入電子支付的管理。現在第三方支付是由數發部進行管理。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。所以到底有沒有在管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：電子支付的部分當然有在管理。例如第三方支付牽涉到打詐的部分，我們對他們採用的虛擬帳戶以及開戶的部分都有相關措施。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。既然說到虛擬帳戶，那本席就要說了，其實虛擬帳戶一天可以向銀行申請數十萬筆虛擬帳號，一般民眾受騙後報案，也許第一時間可以將這個虛擬帳號阻斷，例如先凍結，可是這個詐騙集團也許有幾十萬或好幾萬個虛擬帳號，這樣你們怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於虛擬帳號，我們也注意到這個問題，因為它常會被用來從事不法，所以現在要開設虛擬帳號並沒有那麼簡單，我們有一定的規定，細節可以請銀行局局長向您說明。"],["黃委員秀芳：好的。"],["莊局長琇媛：因為第三方支付常常需要虛擬帳號，所以數發部也有一些洗錢防制的規範，第一個，它要先向數發部做量能登記，如果它沒有做量能登錄，當它向銀行開戶的時候，銀行會拒絕它開戶。已經是銀行客戶的部分，銀行也會看它有沒有向數發部做量能登錄，如果沒有向數發部做量能登錄的話，銀行會停止這個虛擬帳號的服務。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。本席想問一下，從你們實施這樣的作為之後，你們自己有統計過詐騙案的數量嗎？就是透過第三方支付或是虛擬帳號被詐騙的數量有減少嗎？好像也沒有耶！"],["莊局長琇媛：因為第三方支付的主管機關是數發部，我們覺得透過這樣的虛擬帳號管理，其實是可以適度降低啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們覺得這麼做以後，有效降低詐騙。但本席真的希望主委針對這部分要和數發部做一些溝通啦……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，對。"],["黃委員秀芳：主委，你們可能需要有效去監管，也需要數發部協助。","另外，我看到這幾年當中，警政署也特別統計，在六都之外詐騙發生數最高的縣市依序是彰化縣和雲林縣，有一些長輩可能連自己的退休金全部都投下去，投資詐騙也好，虛擬帳號也好，可能就這樣被轉出去了，甚至我在最近聽到一個老師把他畢生積蓄、退休金投資在網路投資中，一下子好幾百萬就轉出去了，我希望金管會針對第三方支付、虛擬帳號的部分應該要更加嚴格。另外，我覺得金管會不論跟數發部也好或警政單位，大家應該可以有些配合，因為我們可以看到詐騙無所不在，手段越來越新，我上次在內政委員會特別提到用名人在網路上投資詐騙的手段，讓一般的民眾會覺得是真的，這個名人也許就是張忠謀、謝金河，金管會在第三方支付或虛擬帳號可以再嚴格一點的話，也許可以阻斷源頭。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們會來努力，這一向是我們阻詐工作的重點，委員的指正，我們會請同仁繼續努力，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢。","接著請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ 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那我想問一下就是說從你們這樣子的一個作為之後那這個詐騙的數量你們自己有去統計嗎就是透過這個第三方支付或是虛擬帳號這個被詐騙的"},{"start":207.48,"end":225.833,"text":"這個數量有減少嗎?好像也沒有欸報委員因為整個第三方支付如果他的主管機關是速發部那我們是覺得因為透過這樣子的虛擬帳號的管理的時候其實是可以適度的降低啦"},{"start":227.05,"end":247.195,"text":"所以你們覺得說是有效的降低這個詐騙可是真的我希望說主委針對這部分可能需要再跟也許你們跟訴發部這邊也要有一些溝通就是說我們主委這邊我們可能需要"},{"start":248.115,"end":274.061,"text":"有效的去監管那也需要速發部這邊來協助另外我看到就是說其實在這幾年當中尤其警政署也有特別統計就是說在六都之外詐騙發生數最高的縣市依序是彰化縣跟雲林縣在這幾年當中就是說有一些長輩他可能連自己的退休金全部都投下去"},{"start":276.162,"end":292.659,"text":"這個投資詐騙也好或者是虛擬帳號的這樣子一個就被轉出去了甚至我在最近聽到一個老師他把他所有畢生的積蓄、退休金全部都投資在這個投資就是網路投資的這個網路"},{"start":294.02,"end":317.347,"text":"當中然後就一下子個好幾百萬就轉出去了所以我是希望就是說金管會針對這個第三方支付虛擬帳號這部分我覺得應該要再更加的嚴格那另外我覺得說金管會不論是跟速發部也好或者是跟這個警政單位我覺得應該大家都可以有一些配合啦因為真的我們看到"},{"start":318.527,"end":339.238,"text":"詐騙真的是無所不在而且真的是這個手段真的是越來越新我上一次在那個內政委員會就有特別提到用名人來在網路上面就是投資投資詐騙的這個手段讓一般的民眾會覺得說這個名人也許就是張忠謀也許是謝金河"},{"start":340.178,"end":358.845,"text":"所以這樣子我覺得說金管會在這個第三方支付或者是虛擬賬號我覺得如果說可以再嚴格一點的話也許可以阻斷源頭是是我們會來努力就是因為這這個一項就是我們在在做主柵工作上的重點對我們會來那個委員的指證我們會來請請同仁繼續努力好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81937d7c84627cbfe2925a148732a468ab6f1306821ff1b0f81cf090c686565d07c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:18:35 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一個部分是這個圍棋式本席在這邊建議我們應該將這個圍棋式定義入法然後能夠防圍杜建希望能夠做到一個源頭的防範"},{"start":179.055,"end":201.855,"text":"這個部分請相關部會去做一個考量另外我們在處理上要細密很重要一點就是保密很多事情都因為沒有保密結果除了當事人以外其他的人都是加油添醋結果到最後就變成一種渲染最後導致一種公審的狀態對當事人或相關人等其實是很不公平的"},{"start":202.735,"end":229.151,"text":"這是我今天很重要的一個四點的一個建議請相關部會研議接下來我們就用一個案件來做一個分享今年在這個2月23號及6月5號有一個媒體的報導我們看這個媒體報導的內容然後跟他的標題他的標題是應該是有一個家長以為國小的兒子他的兒子遭到霸凌這個爸爸就"},{"start":230.591,"end":257.338,"text":"怒拿了武士刀衝了學校這個是媒體的標題那我相信大家現在很多時候沒有時間那我們就是標題閃了一下然後大概這個標題就進入腦子裡但是很重要我們可能要看一下這個內容那我今天就把內容拆解一下請各部會就內容上你們看到的一個結果那你的你對這件事情的認知那因為這是他國小的這個爸爸的國小五年級的一個他的兒子然後在"},{"start":259.46,"end":276.996,"text":"二月的某日下午．感覺好像她認為遭到其他同學的言語的譏諷所以她的胞妹在接受的時候她聽到這件事然後她有她的認知認為小孩可能在校園裡面接受霸凌要被受到霸凌那時候告訴她爸爸"},{"start":277.897,"end":294.697,"text":"結果爸爸就向學校要求調查此事然後學校調查我想如果我們有經驗就知道這個看起來是沒有事情那應該也沒有這樣的情勢於是呢又依照這個我們的SOP又召開了協調會議然後邀請了這個爸爸跟其他市民家長的參與好然後內容二"},{"start":297.349,"end":323.959,"text":"接下來在22日爸爸就去參加了這個會議結果他在這個會議當中情緒激動之下就拿出他的武士刀然後就對大家揮舞當然我們看到一些器具我們當然都會害怕所以校方就緊急封鎖整個學校52個班級進行廣播然後請大家不要離開教室當然大部分的人不知道什麼事情就在教室裡面度過了驚恐的1.5小時"},{"start":326.801,"end":343.877,"text":"第三當然就一定會有人去報案了分局接到報案之後就趕快到了學校然後就把這個爸爸以現行犯的方式逮捕爸爸看到了也就將這個武士刀趕快丟在這個校園的排水溝但是很多東西就後來這些器具被找到了"},{"start":344.997,"end":362.949,"text":"警方也發現武士刀和高爾夫球桿我後面掛號自己會想說這高爾夫球桿跟爸爸有沒有關係但是在一定的篇幅下能夠看到的報導大概就是這樣見識以後就發現武士刀還沒有開封只能算是鈍器不屬於危險物品"},{"start":364.79,"end":381.725,"text":"所以我真的好奇是這個請問那個高爾夫球桿是在這邊加重武士道的強度嗎這個是所謂媒體有太多背景可以解讀了好那接下來最後一個第一在審理這個A男的時候呢偵查當中他都對他的行為有"},{"start":383.507,"end":385.268,"text":"我們是不是先請檢政署"},{"start":414.025,"end":436.131,"text":"接下來法務部教育的部分我們需要長一點的時間是不是聽聽大家的一個想法委員好警政署代表發言我們看到這個個案大概就是一開始是霸凌行為的一些紛爭那跟警政署相關的就是這個A男拿出這個五四刀開始揮舞之後這個學校報案"},{"start":437.031,"end":454.543,"text":"進到現場,我們依照現行判逮捕之後接下來就是這個院檢論罪的部分這個部分我們就尊重司法的判決我們未來會要求類似像這種校園安全事件要立刻能夠儘速到場立刻能夠維持所有人的安全為最重要的任務以上"},{"start":455.538,"end":458.8,"text":"法務部有什麼看法?首先這個案子應該涉及的是刑法305條的單純恐嚇罪因為他那個武士刀沒開封沒開封的話他沒有辦法用槍砲彈"},{"start":472.711,"end":473.271,"text":"指責罪犯罪犯罪犯罪"},{"start":497.346,"end":500.709,"text":"謝謝。最後教育部要不要發表?其實我看到這樣一個事件的發展事實上是覺得很尷尬"},{"start":524.775,"end":542.492,"text":"因為我們大概可以理解這個父親關心小孩然後看起來父親有一點衝動型的一個性格那也帶了不應該帶的這個器具到學校那在溝通的過程裡邊產生了一些不必要的一些紛爭"},{"start":544.093,"end":544.613,"text":"我沒有努力的"},{"start":573.925,"end":588.802,"text":"好,謝謝部長這邊各單位都就你們的這個職責背景提出了一些看法那本席就針對這樣一個案件剛才那個部長這邊提到的那也很感受啦就是我們都心有同感"},{"start":592.907,"end":610.689,"text":"這就反映到剛才本席一開始所講的我們對每一個案件的這個看待它都有後面很多的背景而且是有連帶的那這個部分我們如果光一個案件然後再加上每一年這麼多的案件那這個連帶起來我們看不到的社會成本是非常高的所以其實值得我們來正視"},{"start":612.15,"end":634.685,"text":"本席在這個部分我們講客觀一點來看待啦我們是不是應該第一個檢視怎麼去判斷這個孩子是不是遭到霸凌那有沒有可能在這個過程當中他乾脆後來或許有些東西就往心裡放然後就跟著他一起成長那另外呢家長依據孩子的說法行動的事實如何處理然後再來呢是如何對家長進行安撫"},{"start":635.405,"end":636.106,"text":"提出這幾點供大家參考．"},{"start":650.362,"end":650.382,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153879","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153879","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819d59b0c508feb5c5b0fec08313b105ec0f1306821ff1b0f81d636e8736d0e92655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"12:22:44 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12:28:29","影片長度":"00:05:45","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T12:22:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:28:29+08:00","duration":345,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1049,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（12時22分）謝謝主席，有請國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長、國科會林副主委、教育部葉次長。"],["主席：請以上4位。"],["林委員宜瑾：我們臺灣需要民主AI的創新，在AI的使用上，需要牢記民主自由、不歧視、不侵犯他人人格權的精神，這是昨天卓榮泰院長在院會答詢的時候，對我國AI發展期許的回答。本席今天想在經濟委員會中強調，我國在AI產業的發展，除了產業聚落的群聚效應，以及技術持續的提升以外，必須要留意的就是開發者以及使用者的人文社科素養，要發展以人為本的AI。","本席上週在教文委員會質詢國科會的時候，有提醒國科會，TAIDE的生成式AI對話引擎在輸出的時候，要避免歧視跟偏見的出現，並且在AI監管的法制作業上，要建立好智慧財產權的完善保護。既然智慧財產權的業務是經濟部主管，那就要請問部長，AI生成的創作在智慧財產權的保護上，有什麼需要法規補強的部分？或者說哪些情況不應該落入智慧財產權保護的範疇？"],["郭部長智輝：就這部分的話，我想我們會研擬，我目前是沒有收到這方面的關心啦！我們回去以後會來討論這件事情，再給委員一個報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，包括如果納入智慧財產權，法規的補強跟哪些範疇是不用的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：我想這幾週AI的旋風席捲了全臺，不少委員都希望AI的產業園區能在各自委員擁有科學園區的城市裡頭，在這裡我也想給予經濟部長跟國發會主委一些建議，針對目前擴建中的南科三期，臺南市政府目前有發布新聞稿指出，我們這個地方的都市機能、交通建設、水電供應都非常地充分無虞，臺南市相關的上下游產業，垂直的產業整合也非常完整，具備半導體整個企業發展最好的利基，所以臺南市政府跟我們所有臺南市民都歡迎半導體跟高科技的廠商來臺南設廠。請問經濟部長、國發會主委及國科會副主委，南科三期的AI生態系，這個建構是否可能？產業AI化可不可能在南科來加速實現？"],["郭部長智輝：我們如果能夠把區域的環境打造成AI最佳環境的話，應該業者都會去啦！就是說，花若盛開，蝴蝶自來。"],["林委員宜瑾：因為南科確實現在整個半導體的產值已經超越竹科，副主委應該非常清楚，所以我想這部分再請多參照一下臺南這一塊沃土。","另外，最後想請教教育部，三位請回，不好意思。次長，我們前面提到讓AI的開發者以及使用者具備相關的人文社科的素養，這非常重要，那我們希望說，除了科學的發展快速之外，AI的發展能兼顧人文社會關懷的基本素養，未來教育現場會大量的使用AI，這也應該是一個趨勢，所以想要請教一下，就是說，有沒有把握在日新月異的AI發展浪潮下，我們可以推出相對應的教育政策？就是提供正確的AI使用的教育，同時卓院長期待的民主AI的創新，這個概念未來會不會融入在教育裡面？目前的規劃如何？次長。"],["葉次長丙成：我想跟委員報告，我們目前其實都有在加強資訊素養跟倫理的課程，這件事情非常非常重要，就是使用者在用科技的時候，怎麼樣去運用科技，用在好的地方。另外，其實在中小學這部分，我們在8月底會公布數位教學指引2.0，這裡面其實就會談到包括數位的和AI的很多關鍵資訊素養、數位素養，這些孩子們應該要懂的，然後老師要怎麼樣去教小孩子，這就是從小養成一個正確的觀念，他們長大後用這些技術的時候，就不會歪掉。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。最後一小題就是說，我們如何讓AI的人才留在學界，而非一窩蜂地湧進產業界？因為學界如果有人才的話，我們才能培育下一代，這就是所謂的人才培育。所以請問次長，你對於這個部分人才一窩蜂湧進產界，你有什麼樣的解方嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我想這個大概還是要透過攬才跟彈性薪資。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["葉次長丙成：另外，其實AI師資的培育，特別是在高教裡面的這些老師，我們未來可能透過博士班釋放很多利多下去，讓更多有志於學術的同學可以往這邊走，這也是我們現在在做的事情。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請羅明才委員。羅明才、羅明才委員不在現場。","我們請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.85034375,"end":98.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.00284375000001,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.06034375,"end":175.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.95284375,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.90159375000002,"end":185.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.07784375,"end":192.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.54096875000002,"end":193.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.57471875000002,"end":192.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.87409375000001,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.42221875,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.41159375,"end":213.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.27596875,"end":258.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.14659375,"end":295.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.27284375,"end":288.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.28471875,"end":293.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.57971875000004,"end":317.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.65221875000003,"end":332.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.39409375,"end":323.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.53159375,"end":340.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.68659375000004,"end":342.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.42471875,"end":344.46659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.262,"end":17.129,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國發會劉主委、經濟部郭部長、國科會林副主委、教育部葉次長好 請以上四位"},{"start":21.889,"end":47.462,"text":"我們台灣需要民主AI的創新需要在AI的使用上牢記民主自由不歧視、不侵犯他人人格權的精神這是昨天卓榮泰院長在院會答詢的時候對我國AI發展期許的回答本席今天想在經濟委員會中強調我國在AI產業的發展除了產業聚落的群聚效應"},{"start":48.422,"end":77.182,"text":"以外以及技術持續的提升．我想必須要留意的就是開發者以及使用者的人文社科素養要發展以人為本的AI本席上週在教育委員會質詢國科會的時候就提醒國科會在Tide的生成式AI對話引擎的時候要避免歧視跟偏見的出現並且要在AI監管的法制作業上建立"},{"start":77.822,"end":96.189,"text":"好智慧財產權的這個完善的保護：那既然智慧財產權的業務是經濟部主管：那就要請問部長AI生成的創作在智慧財產權的保護上有什麼需要法規補強的部分：或者說哪些情況又不應該落入智慧財產權的保護的範疇呢 部長"},{"start":99.239,"end":125.316,"text":"就這部分的話我想我們會研擬我目前是沒有收到這方面的關心所以我想我們會回去以後會來討論這件事情再給委員一個報告包括如果納入智慧財產權法規的補強跟哪些範疇是不用的好 那我想這幾週AI的旋風席捲了全台那不少委員都希望AI的產業園區能在各自委員的有"},{"start":126.016,"end":146.324,"text":"有擁有科學園區的城市裡頭那在這裡我也想給予經濟部長跟國發會的主委一些建議就目前擴建中的南科三期台南市政府目前有發布新聞稿指出我們這個地方都市機能、交通建設、水電的供應都非常的充分、無虞"},{"start":146.744,"end":163.754,"text":"那台南市相關的上下游的產業垂直的產業的整合也非常完整具備半導體整個企業發展最好的利基所以台南市政府跟我們所有台南市民都歡迎半導體跟高科技的廠商來台南設廠所以請問經濟部長還有國發部的主委還有國科會的副主委南科三期的AI生態系這個建構是否可能那產業的AI化"},{"start":176.101,"end":195.31,"text":"可不可能在南科來加速實現?我想我們如果能夠把這些這個區域的環境打造成AI最佳的環境的話應該業者都會去就是說花若盛開蝴蝶自來"},{"start":196.656,"end":213.231,"text":"因為南科確實現在整個半導體產值已經超越竹科這個副主委應該非常清楚所以我想這部分再請多參照一下台南這塊沃土那我另外最後是想請教教育部"},{"start":214.352,"end":232.683,"text":"那三位請問不好意思那個次長就我們前面提到就讓AI的開發者以及使用者具備相關的這個人文社科的素養這非常重要那我們希望說科學的發展的快速之外AI的發展能兼顧人文社會關懷的基本素養"},{"start":233.223,"end":258.291,"text":"那未來教育現場會大量的使用AI那這也應該是個趨勢所以想要請教一下說有沒有把握在日新月異的這個AI發展的浪潮下我們可以推出相對應的教育政策提供正確的AI使用的這個教育同時卓友院長期待的民主AI的創新這個概念未來會不會融入在教育裡面那目前的規劃如何?次長"},{"start":259.278,"end":288.958,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是說這個我們目前其實都有在加強這個資訊素養跟倫理的課程我們講這件事是非常非常重要就是他在用科技的時候怎麼樣這些用科技要用在好的地方那另外其實在中小學這部分我們在8月底的時候會公布這個數位教學指引的2.0這裡面其實就會有談到就是說幫他數位的還有AI的這些很多這些關鍵的資訊素養數位素養這些孩子們應該要懂的然後老師要怎麼樣去教育小孩子"},{"start":290.399,"end":316.839,"text":"從小養成到一個正確的觀念他長大的時候再用這技術就不會歪掉最後一小題我們如何讓AI的人才留在學界而非在一窩蜂的湧進產業界因為學界如果人才有的話我們才能培育下一代所謂的人才培育所以請問次長你對於這部分一窩蜂要湧進產業界你有什麼解方嗎"},{"start":318.077,"end":343.156,"text":"我想這個大概就是還是要透過這個攬柴跟這個彈性薪資那另外我想這個其實AI的這個師資的培育其實我想特別是在高教裡面的這些老師這其實也是我們未來可能透過這博士班這邊很多的一些力度下去讓更多的同學有志於學術的可以往這邊走這是我們也是現在在做的事情好 謝謝次長 謝謝署席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8195ef40c51a0d5ef5b182e407f268492bcf1306821ff1b0f81e70cc8ca7686fb325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:13:07 - 12:24:39","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T12:13:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:24:39+08:00","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":897,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時13分）謝謝召委。各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。其實召委很想去日本啦！但是因為在會期當中，我們還是看事辦事，等會議結束以後，再看實際的需求，如果有需要的話，我們再安排。"],["主席：好，再討論。"],["羅委員明才：因為現在是延會，所以我們還是照委員會的規定，該怎麼做就怎麼做。是不是可以請主委？"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["羅委員明才：彭主委好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：今天說到虛擬貨幣等等的交易情況，請問美國有沒有發行虛擬貨幣的ETF交易項目？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。美國確實已經開始在做比特幣的ETF交易。"],["羅委員明才：所以比特幣在臺灣到底是一個合法的商品或者是類似毒品？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們剛才說過，現在比特幣在臺灣已經有在做交易，我們不是把它視為有價證券，它就是一般的商品。"],["羅委員明才：所以比特幣在臺灣交易是合法的，還是非法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前應該都有在交易中。"],["羅委員明才：是什麼交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在就是現貨交易。"],["羅委員明才：是合法還是非法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是合法，只要滿足我們洗錢防制的規定。"],["羅委員明才：所以現在是合法。請問未來會不會變成非法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前我們沒辦法做這個預期，不過我們也要看國際上的趨勢。"],["羅委員明才：好，今天是合法，請問明年是不是合法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實商品工具本身是中性的，如果今天有產生什麼問題或者怎麼樣，我們會隨時動態調整管理。"],["羅委員明才：所以主委，這樣聽起來比特幣是合法的，違犯法律的詐騙集團才是犯法，這些違法的人才是犯法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是標的物本身是中性的，如果被拿來做不法的利用等等，就有可能涉犯違法的事情。"],["羅委員明才：好的。很多委員都在討論，除了剛才您說的，美國已經合法，也公開發行ETF的項目，請問還有哪些地方允許虛擬貨幣上市買賣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：香港也有類似的ETF。"],["羅委員明才：還有哪一個國家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我知道還有加拿大、澳洲，也有完全禁止的地方。"],["羅委員明才：其實很多人在想，日本到底有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：日本沒有。"],["羅委員明才：可是我們上次去考察的時候，我們看到東京附近的看板上，很多都寫歡迎比特幣交易。"],["彭主任委員金隆：比特幣交易是一個方式，用ETF在公開市場買賣又是另外一回事，如果是ETF，是大部分的投資人有可能買得到。"],["羅委員明才：是，所以很多情況沒有深入去了解，大家也不知道狀況。不過幾年前去東京考察，其實每個委員會都有考察啦！那時候的銀行局局長是邱局長，回來後升為副主委，當時還寫了一大篇報告，大家覺得非常有參考性。證券交易所也有特別蒐集資料，也做了很詳細的報告。特別在這裡告訴主委，我們證券交易所居然比本席想像的還厲害，和日本的東京證券交易所往來非常密切，是不是請臺灣證券交易所？林董事長，你好。"],["林董事長修銘：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：照理說，你今天應該要關心很多新股上市，今天有哪幾家順利掛牌上市？"],["林董事長修銘：今天是來億。"],["羅委員明才：有吧？"],["林董事長修銘：有的。"],["羅委員明才：聽說是臺商，是不是？"],["林董事長修銘：對，KY。"],["羅委員明才：今年的上市情況如何？掛牌數？"],["林董事長修銘：今年的上市情況，現在掛牌的，都是去年申請通過的。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有達標？"],["林董事長修銘：有的。"],["羅委員明才：臺灣證券交易所這幾年業績好得不得了，去年EPS是幾元？"],["林董事長修銘：7.8元。"],["羅委員明才：今年會不會和去年一樣？甚至是超過？"],["林董事長修銘：預期會超過，以現在熱絡的情況。"],["羅委員明才：你看，主委，如果打詐缺錢，臺灣證券交易所很有錢啦！據說現在帳面上現金應該超過100億元以上。"],["林董事長修銘：是，超過。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有200億元以上？"],["林董事長修銘：有的。"],["羅委員明才：大概是F4裡面最強的。我們希望強的時候更應該要多考量未來的變化，增強每一個人的體質，讓每一個都驍勇善戰。剛才會舉這個例子，是因為在彭主委未來的願景中，臺灣必須和國際接軌，外國人在做的，臺灣也必須有這個能力可以做。怎麼樣取代香港、新加坡，甚至是日本？請問，日本有沒有發行虛擬貨幣的相關ETF？"],["林董事長修銘：沒有。"],["羅委員明才：現在還沒有喔！"],["林董事長修銘：現在還沒有。"],["羅委員明才：那日本的比特幣是怎麼交易？"],["林董事長修銘：應該都是現貨吧！"],["羅委員明才：臺灣是7-ELEVEN也可以買得到，是不是？還是萊爾富？它的通路究竟在哪裡？"],["林董事長修銘：我們交易所現在還沒有參與這個業務的規劃。"],["羅委員明才：好，也多了解一下啦！"],["林董事長修銘：好的，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：要做最好的準備，迎接任何挑戰，希望我們進退都有分寸、準備，謝謝。臺灣證券交易所最近因為碳權的事比較忙，我們改天再好好談這件事，因為迫在眉睫啦！碳權的問題一定會討論到。請問主委，臺灣現存的交易通路是用什麼樣的方式在做交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在臺灣也有交易所。剛才我們提到，現在VASP裡面，已經做洗防登記的業者有交易所，也有剛才說的ATM，也有實體的店面，還有託管的服務商，我們有很多種類型。剛才也說到，其實我們的交易所就可以交易。"],["羅委員明才：交易所可以交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員明才：請問我們的態度是否歡迎國外的企業來臺灣設立交易所？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在就是所有的外國公司一定要落地，要適用相同的標準。"],["羅委員明才：所以原則是不排斥囉？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的法規是有這樣的設計。"],["羅委員明才：如果全世界最大的業者也來臺灣設立據點，主委支不支持？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們就要看實際狀況，因為條件是一致的，我們會按照現在的原則審核。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有負責人、最終收益人以及國籍的考量？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分可不可以請現在的審核單位說明？"],["羅委員明才：好，請張局長。"],["張局長振山：現在是個案來送件的時候，我們就會看它的背景是誰……"],["羅委員明才：如果是香港人，可不可以？"],["張局長振山：我們沒有做國籍上的判斷，如果有需要的話，我們會請陸委會表示意見。"],["羅委員明才：是。日本人也可以嗎？"],["張局長振山：如果你是外國幣商的話，當然負責人可能是外國人，但是因為它在臺灣落地，我們就要審查它的……"],["羅委員明才：因為大家現在一說到大陸就先怕三分，如果是大陸人士來申請，可不可以？"],["張局長振山：也是一樣的概念啊！如果是大陸，可能就要和陸委會照會一聲，這家公司的負責人是大陸人士。例如一家公司來申請的話，我們就要審查，涉及到外單位的部分，我們就要請他們表示意見。"],["羅委員明才：所以還是看情況啦！是不是？"],["張局長振山：是的。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。最後再請教主委，在你的願景當中，因為你剛上任，過兩年以後，你希望看到臺灣的整個金融發展呈現什麼樣的面貌？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。我想這個面貌，每個人都有想像，我希望臺灣的金融市場在持續穩定的基礎上，能夠有更大的發揮空間，就是落實安全與發展併進的金融市場。"],["羅委員明才：如果開放和保守，你會選擇哪一個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得在很多安全方面，我們必須保守謹慎，但是對於未來新的機會以及發展，我們必須大膽的設想，最後還是要回到安全的基礎上。"],["羅委員明才：本席記得過去想要積極推動金融監理沙盒，結果通過到現在，哪一家還在做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在沙盒確實遇到瓶頸，但是我們會強化試辦的部分，未來也會推出新的辦法。"],["羅委員明才：好。安全最重要啦！但開放也是大家期盼的，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員指正。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅召委的質詢。","接著請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","接著請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接著請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ 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問題或怎麼樣那我們會隨時動態的來做這樣的調整所以主委這樣聽起來的話就是比特幣它是合法的那如果非法的是詐騙集團是犯法的才是犯法"},{"start":146.791,"end":171.06,"text":"違法的人才是犯法嗎?就是標的物本身它本身是中性但是它如果說今天拿來做不法的利用或不法的這個就有可能是涉犯違法的事情好的 很多的委員在討論剛剛主任您講說美國已經合法也公開發行ETF的這個項目那請問還有其他什麼地方是允許"},{"start":173.264,"end":185.34,"text":"虛擬貨幣是可以上市、買賣的還有哪一家?還有哪一個國家?我知道可能還有加拿大、澳洲"},{"start":190.31,"end":208.889,"text":"也有完全禁止的其實有很多人在想說那日本到底有沒有日本沒有日本沒有可是在我們上次考察的時候我們看到整個東京附近的看板都有很多歡迎比特幣交易"},{"start":210.274,"end":220.828,"text":"比特幣交易是一個用ETF在公開市場上買賣又是另外一回事這是因為ETF我們是大部分的投資人有可能會買得到是 所以很多的情況"},{"start":222.065,"end":249.491,"text":"沒有深入去了解 大家也不知道不過在幾年前的考察當中其實考察每個委員會都有那在幾年前的東京的考察我發現銀行局的局長那時候是莊局長是莊局長 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超過有沒有兩百億以上有大概是F4裡面最強的我們雖然說強"},{"start":376.662,"end":401.238,"text":"強的時候更應該要多多考量未來的變化增加每一個人的體質每一個都是驍勇、善戰剛剛舉這個例子台灣如果在我們彭主委他的未來的一個願景台灣是必須要跟國際接軌"},{"start":402.952,"end":425.545,"text":"外國人做的我們台灣也必須要有這個能力可以做啊怎麼樣來取代香港怎麼樣來取代新加坡甚至日本請問日本有沒有發行虛擬貨幣相關的ETF沒有沒有現在還沒有現在還沒有那日本的比特幣他們是怎麼交易的"},{"start":430.524,"end":441.74,"text":"臺灣是在抄7-11也可以買得到嗎?是不是?還是萊爾富?他的通路究竟是在哪裡?"},{"start":446.471,"end":467.856,"text":"因為我們交易所現在還沒有參與這個業務的規劃也多了解一下啦因為做最好的準備迎接任何的挑戰希望進退我們都有一個分寸有一個準備好 謝謝那請問彭主委好了 謝謝"},{"start":469.776,"end":479.733,"text":"因為臺灣政經教育所最近探權的事也比較忙我們改天再好好來談這個事因為這個迫在眉睫探權的問題一定會討論到"},{"start":481.844,"end":511.404,"text":"主委現在台灣現存的交易通路是用什麼樣的方式在做交易現在台灣也有交易所剛剛我們提到我們現在VASP它裡面的這些的我們做洗房登記的業者有交易所也有剛剛講的時候比如說ATM也有實體的店面還有像我們的托管的服務商這些都是我們很多種類型剛剛講我們的交易所其實上就可以在上面做交易"},{"start":517.046,"end":528.969,"text":"請問我們的態度歡不歡迎國外的企業來台灣設立交易所我們現在的話就是所有的外國一定要落地要適用我們相同的標準"},{"start":531.209,"end":554.281,"text":"所以原則是不排斥囉?對,我們法規是有這樣的一個設計那如果全世界最大的也來台灣設立據點,各位支不支持?這個我們就來看,因為那個條件我們是一致的,我們就會進行來按照我們的現在原則來審核有沒有負責任他的最終收益人以及國籍的考量?"},{"start":555.369,"end":575.757,"text":"這部分的話我們可不可以請我們現在那個審核的單位可不可以來做個說明一下謝謝報告我們現在因為個案來送進的時候我們就會看他的背景是誰如果是香港人可不可以我想因為沒有國籍上的判斷那如果有需要的話我們會請陸委會來表示意見是那如果像日本人也可以嗎"},{"start":577.469,"end":593.006,"text":"因為如果你是外國的避傷的話當然他可能是外國人但是他因為要台灣落地的時候我們就要審查他的那因為現在大家覺得大陸有時候一講到大陸就是先怕三分如果是大陸人士來申請可不可以"},{"start":593.266,"end":594.487,"text":"主委就是在你的願景當中"},{"start":623.683,"end":648.981,"text":"因為你剛剛來那過兩年以後你希望看到台灣的整個金融發展會呈現怎麼樣的面貌謝委員我想這個面貌每個人都有想像我希望就是說我們台灣金融市場在持續穩定的基礎上面能夠有更大的發揮的空間就是說我們落實我們安全與這個發展並進的金融市場"},{"start":653.24,"end":670.631,"text":"如果開放跟保守你會選擇哪一個我覺得在很多安全上面我們必須保守謹慎但是對於未來新的機會以及發展我們必須要大膽的設想但是還是要回到一個安全的基礎上我記得過去那個沙盒的部分"},{"start":672.155,"end":691.948,"text":"經濟的要推動結果沙盒通過到現在剩下哪一家還在做的現在沙盒確實遇到瓶頸但是我們現在會強化在我們的事辦的部分我們未來會推出新的辦法希望這個安全重要啦但是開放是大家所期盼的是 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謝謝所以你要不要多說一點"},{"start":280.999,"end":301.957,"text":"就是我們會按照這樣的去做那我相信相關的政策我們日後會有機會再討論那國發會這邊呢剛剛在不同的委員的質詢當中你們提到有100億、100億、188億有非常多的經費都已經開始要動用下去了那在中小企業相關AI產業升級人才這些照顧上呢"},{"start":303.136,"end":320.951,"text":"這個部分我們也會來強化再跟委員回覆好 我們希望有沒有機會在一個月內我們跟國發會跟經濟部開啟相關會議跟討論有機會在一個月內嗎一個月應該可以可以 國發會可以 那經濟部呢可以好 可以 謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝部長跟主委 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819e852d15130444ae125a148732a468ab6f1306821ff1b0f81286718de83cffd1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"12:13:24 - 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謝謝主席在場的委員先進列席的正午江蘇黨官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和經濟部郭部長請兩位 謝謝"},{"start":26.604,"end":45.801,"text":"主委好部長好來先請教部長部長最近你很紅我們提到AI它的應用跟生產耗能大不只它的製造它的硬體的運作跟冷卻用電需求量很大那這裡有一個綠色民主是指出我們台灣到2023的工業耗電佔了55%那到了這個台積電它的半導體產業到2021年到2030年要增加兩倍多是不是這樣子"},{"start":55.049,"end":83.665,"text":"那這麼大的數量我們來看一下當然是這麼多的半導體產業台積電要蓋7座3奈米預估到2030年台積電用電占全台六分之一經濟部有把握嗎有有把握好那你還告訴他一個好消息因為這個各縣市首長都在搶回答你說沒有關係沒有關係2030年至少還有10座的資料中心要建置對不對大家趕快去分那請問一下這10座資料中心耗不耗能用不用電"},{"start":84.804,"end":104.454,"text":"耗能與用電那好 那請教一下那就是為了滿足未來半導體製造還有人工智慧的硬體運作及冷卻需求你們有對未來的用電需求做了評估了嗎有那也知道要怎麼樣去把目前的供電提高到未來的滿足對未來的需求有做了一個計畫了嗎有做這樣的這個假設了好 那我就開始來問一下了"},{"start":105.655,"end":130.955,"text":"2030年您是說不會缺電除非明年起AI用電暴增我這個不太清楚去年我們國家台灣大概用了2821度多的電那其中的再生能源占了大概267億多大概占比大概9%是這樣子那請問到了2030年你預估台灣的用電需求要多少2030年台灣需要用到多少電我聽說是3400億度是這樣嗎"},{"start":133.84,"end":158.58,"text":"數字正確吧是那這當中的綠電要多少綠電需求我們的規劃是30%30%大概就是408億度的電好 那要從不到300億度要增大到400億度那怎麼來呢 我們往下看那目前國際企業要求RE100供應內要100%的綠能那這其中的綠能有1、2、3、4、5你覺得台灣都有具備嗎"},{"start":160.919,"end":169.516,"text":"目前生智能是比較少的有潛力風光不錯水利在發展當中那有包含核電嗎"},{"start":171.84,"end":199.568,"text":"R100R100沒有包含所以其實大家要關心的未來因應台灣的產業的外銷需求我們需要的綠電不包含核電英文過第三次了接下來那請問你估計國際企業在台灣建制數據中心及高科技產業的廠商要合乎R100的再生能源需求未來的綠電供應足夠了嗎你如何來提高這些綠電滿足他們的需求報告委員經過我們的盤算是足夠的足夠那有什麼手段嗎"},{"start":201.209,"end":221.301,"text":"我們會把綠電需求的廠商我們就給他綠電那不需要綠電的廠商我們就給他其他的綠電綠電不夠賣目前那要買綠電買不到那目前有一個說法說1000度的綠電被台階拿走900度了中小企業買不到為什麼"},{"start":223.212,"end":250.482,"text":"這是在過去啦那報告委員這是我來了以後我們現在馬上要成立一個綠電平台是所以我想這些中小企業都買得到好 那我們來往下看其實呢大廠購電的合約可以讓風光業者、風電業者去融資這您知道吧目前光電、風電它需要很大的融資嘛是所以這些購電契約它可能用專融資你知道為什麼中小企業拿不到這個購電契約嗎因為銀行不同意貸款那怎麼解決"},{"start":252.537,"end":254.478,"text":"中小企業來跟我買電打的契約沒有用,怎麼辦?"},{"start":271.888,"end":289.609,"text":"他也可以賣給,我們可能會去撮合一下所以你們希望用電價分級的方式來處理,是這個目的嗎?是最近就是說你們希望把綠電、一般電、低碳電分開來需要綠電的去買你中小企業就算沒有辦法去跟風電業者取得購電契約你都可以透過這個平台來購買,是不是這樣意思?是的"},{"start":290.069,"end":317.092,"text":"好 那就要明白地說出來不然大家搞不清楚為什麼店家要分級是看我家的用電多寡還是用什麼方式好 往下看所以呢 現在來請教我們國發會的主委我們風光發電機的建設性我們供應機載用電是不是要氫能氫能是我們的一部分一部分 儲能的部分 氫能很重要對好 那你目前台灣的氫能除了儲能之外還有待發展的空間各部會怎麼去做"},{"start":319.515,"end":345.934,"text":"我們目前除了這個這個儲能的部分以外我們其實跟中研院現在也會跟他有一些計畫做來濾清的發展那另外其實我們最近也在探尋地熱因為菲律賓就已經有一點多Gigawatt已經在運轉的地熱所以這些都是多元利能是我們現在在探尋的方向您說得很好多元利能這是我搜尋到的上一頁包括電解海水去置清包括把天然氣轉成濾清或燃濾清"},{"start":347.535,"end":363.576,"text":"以及我們要燃料電池作為儲能設備的重要基礎。」所以國科委也要盤點這些技術了,是嗎?所以未來氫能的發展和技術補助要從基礎設施切入,有沒有大幅擴大民生需求,有沒有具體的計畫?"},{"start":365.078,"end":382.166,"text":"目前我們這個部分因為它的成本比較高我們還是在實驗階段但是只是預備否未來比較長期的發展好 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你的前任在這三年裡面他覺得說 已經有依《洗錢防制法》那做了法尊聲明有25家來啦就以這25家交差了事但是就我剛剛講的 個人避傷完全一點"},{"start":293.7,"end":321.951,"text":"都無動於衷對他們一點都莫可奈何我是認為說這不能只是對於願意守法的業者來加高他登記的這些門檻我們應該對這些個人券商還要有更積極的作為我現在看到的作為是還不夠啦以及現在除了這個個人券商以外"},{"start":323.05,"end":351.838,"text":"我認為像境外的境外那更不用講你個人的都完全束手無策的那境外的呢境外的更不用說啦還有再來我怕說這樣VASP這樣推行之後未來還會有一個問題啦就是說大家去把願意守法合法的公司把它法治化法尊說明之後"},{"start":353.766,"end":375.386,"text":"那這些是成立合法的交易場所囉那這些交易場所是不是就藉由他的合法性他是有牌的那他就把他整個牌子就賣掉啦就賣給這些詐騙集團洗錢集團不是嗎"},{"start":376.724,"end":404.875,"text":"所以我認為這一點我在你今天整篇的報告裡面我沒有看到你這個有什麼針對這一件事情有什麼這個防制方法所以我認為說如果未來一旦VASP這樣股權變動是不是我們要加一個要求股權變動一定要通報金管會而且要金管會同意你幹嘛呢"},{"start":405.888,"end":426.676,"text":"剛好委員指正的就是我們現在努力的方向第一個我們剛才講我們對《洗錢防制法》修正我們訂定一個執法登記的標準我們就把它放進來再來未來的專法的時候我們對這個機構的管理當然負責人還有股權的移轉當然是重點的重點重點的重點那有這種情形發生了嗎"},{"start":428.353,"end":429.173,"text":"那時間暫停我請一下今天刑事局有來齁有請黃副局長"},{"start":457.355,"end":458.901,"text":"那個 欸 行事局齁這個"},{"start":462.082,"end":486.941,"text":"其實現在打詐第一線就是警方啦其實警方是疲於奔命那他對於警方在打詐這麼積極的做其實我們社會各界都給予高度的評價我們認為現在打詐還這麼猖獗那問題不是在警方警方是有很認真的查可是我覺得對於我們員警已經很辛苦的員警"},{"start":487.842,"end":495.657,"text":"比方說在這個虛擬貨幣啦在這一些的交易上面我覺得齁 很多員警他不知道說條碼就超商啊"},{"start":500.087,"end":525.753,"text":"這個超商上面這些條碼其實就是他們在交易虛擬貨幣這個不知道說這個用途是這樣所以導致當我們很多警方第一線的警員他不曉得的時候還必須再去針對這些條碼、字條去查證的結果這又多花了好幾天所以在這一個部分是不是要加強"},{"start":526.693,"end":532.948,"text":"對於我們第一線員警對他們的這一部分的教育這一個部分您看法呢?"},{"start":534.957,"end":560.951,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那有關這個超商裡面的一些金流洗金流的一些作為不僅包括這個還有包括遊戲點數也是那有一些這些購買這些虛擬資產的這個部分我們會再繼續的對員警來做教育我們也一直在講那個也會再做強化如果還有這種疏失的話我們會積極的再教育我們的同仁要多加注意這樣子"},{"start":561.531,"end":574.779,"text":"道高一尺魔高一丈永遠壞人他們的智慧永遠都是高於我們正道的人這一個部分你要一定要加強好不好時間在你你請回因為彭主委我剛講的那個人"},{"start":580.799,"end":610.195,"text":"必商這一個部分你的這個加強管理是不是你能夠你具有幾個方法你在事後再給我做一些這部分的報告好不好可以這個個人必商他們場外交易的這樣子的方式完全是現在我們看到的VASP這樣子的管理所沒辦法約束的而現在個人必商這個才是真正兩大重點第一個"},{"start":610.895,"end":635.823,"text":"詐欺他們詐騙集團使用最通行的方式個人避傷第二個洗錢如果有這種犯罪集團要洗錢大概都他不會去找你已經納管好的那25家他一定是找個人避傷這我相信你我大家心裡都非常清楚好不好"},{"start":636.344,"end":639.014,"text":"加強對個人避傷的管理"}]}},{"id":"153869","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153869","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81953efa27fe1990e6159a48fe1a1d57c38f1306821ff1b0f811b1b31f5abdde3215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:00:37 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12:11:51","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T12:00:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:11:51+08:00","duration":674,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":899,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時）謝謝主席，是不是麻煩有請通傳會副主委以及中華電信的副總經理？"],["主席：請通傳會副主委及中華電信。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。前陣子發生了駭人聽聞的事情，大規模，不僅僅是個資，也許是通訊資料，竟然被民進黨、我們執政黨的高層掌握。大家都在追問一件事情，這位民進黨的高層到底是從哪裡取得這些資料？針對這件事情，NCC目前了解的進度是什麼，可不可以請副主委說明一下？因為這些涉及電信業者掌握到的個人資料，基本上的行政檢查及保護是屬於NCC主管，沒有錯吧？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。我們按照個資法第二十二條，在113年5月30日請三大電信業者到本會進行行政檢查、行政調查，業者向我們陳述的意見都是無任何私人企業、政府機關或特定政黨人士向該公司接洽有關於青鳥行動的人流資訊。昨天我們再請三大電信業者來開會，就去識別化這件事情，針對去識別化認證標準的程序要趕快導入，先跟委員這樣報告。"],["黃委員國昌：結論啊！以主管機關的立場來講，到目前還是沒有掌握這位民進黨高層是怎麼取得這些資訊，對不對？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，三大電信業者都表示沒有與特定政黨人士接觸、也沒有提供青鳥行動相關的人流輪廓資訊。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們現在處理的只有三個電信業者嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：未來我們也會對一定規模的電信事業再去了解，其實早上也有委員提到這件事情，譬如早上有委員提到的是方電訊，我們也會去調查了解。"],["黃委員國昌：今天早上看了徐巧芯委員的質詢，我真的是覺得匪夷所思啊！按照徐委員質詢及掌握到吹哨者提供的內容，5月27日下午這位民進黨的高層之所以可以在節目上大放厥詞，原來是5月27日上午在民進黨中央黨部就有開會，他是聽到有人報告才得到這個資訊，所以這個清查的範圍恐怕要擴大囉！不是只有王義川個人喔！如果他是坐在那邊聽其他民進黨的一級主管報告，拿著是方電訊給他們的資料在那邊進行報告，大家全部都有聽到。現在這個風波是越來越大，要查的可能不是只有王義川個人，而是所有參與那個會議的人，是不是都聽到這些資訊了？由誰報告的？這個報告的內容從哪裡來的？是不是如同徐委員收到的檢舉一樣，由是方電訊提供的？這些事情全部都要徹查到底啊！NCC會不會去查？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，剛剛我已經講過，我們會對一定規模的電信事業都進行調查了解。"],["黃委員國昌：相關的當事人會不會進行行政調查？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們會針對電信事業的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們具體來看嘛！中華電信從民進黨執政之後一片綠油油啊！包括了大數據中心的總監李誠偉、包括了董事長郭水義、還有是方電訊的董事長吳彥宏，吳彥宏是民進黨新潮流的大將啊！非常會酬庸啊！直接酬庸到是方電訊去擔任董事長。我請教一下中華電信，是方電訊的業務範圍有包括輿情監控嗎？來，請教？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，是方電訊的主要業務還是IDC與上網業務。"],["黃委員國昌：它有做輿情監控的業務嗎？你們是最大的股東啊！董事長也是你們任命的啊！你應該很清楚啊！是方電訊有幹這種事情嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：就是方電訊揭露的服務項目中並沒有看到這個部分，但是如同我說明的，因為是方電訊是獨立的公司，針對相關的事項，中華電信有些部分是沒有辦法代表它提出說明。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說的沒有錯。在它揭露公開的資訊項目裡面都沒有做什麼、都沒有做輿情監控，但我看了覺得很奇怪，它對於特定的對象、特定的關係是會去做輿情監控分析的，為什麼我會這樣講？看一下，是方電訊在2018年4月取得臺南市政府民政局107年網路輿情監測分析服務案，提供服務的對象是臺南市政府，而當時臺南市政府將這個標案發包出去的人是誰？陳宗彥啊！陳宗彥啊！另外一個民進黨新潮流的大將啊！陳宗彥要做的網路輿情分析，竟然由是方電訊幫他做，這個並不在它公司原本的業務範圍內。大家看了之後都很擔心，是方電訊手上掌握了那麼多data、那麼多主機、那麼多儲存的資料，它拿什麼資料去做網路輿情監測的分析？而且是方電訊的吳彥宏與陳宗彥都是民進黨同一個派系，民進黨特別的派系拿公帑要是方電訊幫他們去做網路監測分析。接下來的2021年，針對疫調指揮中心所做的那套系統，主席也是陳宗彥、參與的也有中華電信。我問一下中華電信，這個系統現在是不是已經百分之百徹底移除了？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在移除的過程中，由誰負責監督這個系統的移除？"],["林副總經理文智：相關的事項，包括主管機關都會做相關的監督與查證，確保我們確實移除了。"],["黃委員國昌：來，請NCC。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，分為二個部分，這個系統已經移除，第二個，裡面的個資也移除，我們的平台處有去查核。"],["黃委員國昌：你們查核的對象是誰？"],["黃副處長天陽：報告委員，我們在確定指揮中心解編之後，立即在同一月的月底前就完成查核，至於查核的對象，因為當時參與疫調平台的是五家行動電信事業，我們都有去他們的機房確認已經刪除，也請他們留下確定刪除的紀錄。"],["黃委員國昌：這套系統，除了五大電信業者之外，還有沒有人有管道可以取得？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，因為電信事業是一個封閉的網路，沒有其他的業者可以獲得。"],["黃委員國昌：所以確定這個已經移除了嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：已經移除，而且個資都已經刪除。"],["黃委員國昌：如果有人手上還有這套系統，是不是就一定是違法的？是嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員講的正確。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，電信事業是一個封閉的系統，這套系統只有行動通信網路業者才會有，但是這套系統已經移除，另外個資也已經都移除了。"],["黃委員國昌：NCC有沒有對是方電訊辦理過個資行政檢查？從過去到現在？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：目前沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從過去到現在都沒有？它是不是應該要接受行政檢查的對象？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們會即刻去進行。"],["黃委員國昌：分二個部分，第一個，過去它手上掌有這些個資，你們有沒有辦過行政檢查？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，按照個資法第二十二條，針對有一定規模以上的電信事業，我們才會去檢查。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是方電訊的規模還不算大就對了？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：所謂的一定規模，譬如它擁有的寬頻用戶有多少、擁有的電信用戶有多少。雖然是方電訊的最主要業務是IDC，但是今天徐委員已經很明確的點出來，我們會即刻去對這樣子的……"],["黃委員國昌：我希望你們接下來要做的行政檢查，請你先看一下個資法第二十二條，你們做行政檢查的手段，個資法給你們很多授權嘛！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你應該看的到吧？可以沒入可為證據的個人資料或檔案、可以扣留或複製，並不是把他叫來問一問，然後他說沒有就沒有，現場該去做的查核就要去做查核，因為這件事情非同小可、這件事情非同小可！所有參與那個會議的人，我希望今天承辦案件的檢察官……在立法院裡所做的質詢全部都是公開資訊，我希望承辦案件的檢察官不要高高舉起輕輕放下，把人叫來問一問，說沒事就沒事。NCC也是一樣，既然目前的個資法賦予你們行政檢查的權限，你們就要確實去檢查。這個涉及到大規模的國家、甚至是政黨藉由非法取得的資料對人民進行的監控，一定要徹查到底啊！NCC可不可以本於獨立機關的權責，這件事情要查清楚，給大家一個交代，可以嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：會，謝謝委員的指導。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。這個受到很大的關注，我們請相關單位，包括NCC及中華電信都要盡速處理，謝謝。","請吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員不在。","接下來請張啓楷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":3.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.755968750000001,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.05971875,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.919718750000001,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.084093750000001,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.15471875,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.99409375,"end":23.824718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.60096875,"end":25.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start"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對不對電信跟委員報告所有電信三個電信業者的報告是說他們沒有跟特定的政黨人士有接觸也沒有提供青鳥行動的相關的人流輪廓資訊所以你們現在處理的只有三個電信業者嗎"},{"start":135.741,"end":160.429,"text":"未來我們會對一定規模的電信事業也會再去了解因為早上有委員提到這件事情像早上委員提到的四方電信我們也會去調查了解我今天早上看徐曉欣委員的質詢我看了真的是匪夷所思按照徐委員他質詢跟掌握到吹哨者所提供的內容"},{"start":161.676,"end":184.645,"text":"5月17號下午這位民進黨的高層之所以可以在節目上面大放厥詞啊原來是5月27號上午在民進黨中央黨部就有開會啊他是聽有人報告才得到這個資訊啊那這個清查的範圍恐怕要擴大囉不是只有王逸川個人喔"},{"start":186.414,"end":213.194,"text":"因為他是坐在那邊聽別的民進黨的一級主管在那邊報告拿著四方電訊給他們的資料在那邊進行報告大家全部都有聽到現在這個風波是越來越大要查的可能不是只有王玉川個人啊而是所有參與那個會議的人是不是都聽到了這些資訊了由誰報告的"},{"start":217.51,"end":246.53,"text":"這個報告的內容從哪裡來的是不是如同徐委員所收到的檢舉一樣是從四方電訊所提供的這些事情全部都要徹查到底啊NCC會不會去查報委員我剛才已經有講過我們會對一定規模的電信事業都會去調查了解相關的當事人會不會進行行政調查報委員我們會對電信事業的部分好來我們具體的來看嘛"},{"start":247.679,"end":272.534,"text":"中華電信從民進黨執政了以後一片綠油油阿包括了大數據中心的總監李承偉包括了董事長郭水義還有四方電訊的董事長吳彥宏吳彥宏是民進黨新潮流的大將阿非常會酬庸阿直接酬庸到四方電訊裡面阿去當董事長"},{"start":276.793,"end":302.392,"text":"來我請教一下中華電信四方電信他們的業務範圍有包括語情監控嗎來請教報告委員就了解四方電信的主要業務還是IDC跟那個上網業務對阿他有做語情監控的業務嗎你們是最大的股東阿董事長是你們任命的阿你應該很清楚阿四方電信有在幹這種事情嗎"},{"start":303.942,"end":303.962,"text":"對﹖好"},{"start":321.94,"end":349.71,"text":"你說得沒有錯他接到公開的資訊項目裡面都沒有做什麼都沒有在做語情監控但我看得很奇怪他對於特定的對象、特定的關係是會去做語情監控分析的我為什麼這樣講?來看一下世芳電訊2018年4月的時候取得台南市政府民政局107年網路語情監測分析服務案"},{"start":351.158,"end":370.95,"text":"提供服務的對象是台南市政府台南市政府那時候的發包這個標案出去的人是誰陳宗彥陳宗彥另外一個民進黨新潮流的大將陳宗彥要做的網路語情分析結果四方電訊幫他做"},{"start":373.121,"end":396.799,"text":"這不在他們公司本來的業務範圍內那大家看了會很擔心啊四方電訊手上掌握那麼多data那麼多主機那麼多儲存的資料他拿什麼資料啊去做這個網路語情監測的分析而且四方電訊的吳彥宏跟這個陳忠彥都是民進黨同一個派系的"},{"start":401.752,"end":424.602,"text":"民進黨特別的派系拿公帑要釋放電訊幫他們去做網路監測分析接下來2021年我們針對疫調指揮中心所做的那套系統主席也是陳宗彥"},{"start":426.462,"end":440.337,"text":"參與的也有中華電信來 我問一下中華電信這個系統現在是不是已經百分之百徹底移除了是好 你們在移除的過程當中由誰負責監督這個系統的移除"},{"start":441.278,"end":461.695,"text":"相關的事項包括主管機關都會做相關的監督跟查證確保我們確實移除報告委員這個分做兩個部分這個系統它已經移除第二個裡面的個資也移除我們的平台處有去查核好你們查核的對象是誰"},{"start":463.99,"end":489.556,"text":"報告委員我們在那個確定那個指揮中心解編以後我們就立即在同一月的月底前就完成查核那我們查核對象是五那個因為參與這個疫調平台是五大當時是五家電信行動電信事業我們都有到他們的就是機房跟確保他們刪除而且都有請他們留下Log記錄然後確定刪除的記錄這套系統"},{"start":492.077,"end":515.888,"text":"除了五大電信業者以外,還有沒有人有管道可以取得?報告委員,這個系統是因為電信事業它是一個封閉的網路沒有其他的業者可以獲得所以確定這個已經移除了嗎?已經移除如果有人手上還有這套系統的話,是不是一定是違法的?"},{"start":517.449,"end":519.35,"text":"NCC有沒有對四方電訊辦理過各自行政檢查?從過去到現在?"},{"start":542.256,"end":547.281,"text":"從過去到現在都沒有?他是不是應該要接受行政檢查的對象?分兩個部分嘛 第一個"},{"start":553.05,"end":566.133,"text":"過去他手上藏有這些個資：你們有沒有辦過行政檢查嗎?包委員這個部分就是我們按照個資法22條就是有一定規模以上的電信事業才會去檢查所以四方電信規模還不夠大就對了因為一定規模比如說他擁有的寬頻的用戶有多少"},{"start":572.435,"end":574.316,"text":"我希望齁你們接下來所做的行政檢查來你看一下各自法22條"},{"start":592.91,"end":609.362,"text":"你們做行政檢查的手段各支法給你們很多授權嘛對你應該看得到吧可以去沒入可違證據的個人資料或檔案嘛可以扣留或複製嘛那不是把他叫來問一問他說沒有就說沒有嘛"},{"start":611.003,"end":627.011,"text":"現場該去做的查核就要去做查核嘛因為這件事情非同小可啊這件事情非同小可啊所有參與那個會議的人我希望啊今天承辦案件的檢察官在立法院裡面所做的質詢全部都是公開資訊啊"},{"start":628.462,"end":645.135,"text":"我希望承辦案件的檢察官不要高高舉起輕輕放下人叫來問一問說沒事就沒事NCC也是一樣你們既然在目前各執法裡面賦予你們這樣檢查的權限就要切實去檢查"},{"start":646.036,"end":672.171,"text":"這涉及到大規模國家甚至政黨藉由非法取得的資料對人民所進行的監控一定要徹查到底啊NCC可不可以本於獨立機關的權責這件事情要查清楚啊給大家一個交代可以嗎會 謝委員的指導好 謝謝這個受到很大的關注我們請相關單位NCC、中華電信都可以盡速處理謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153868","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153868","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819a59f4cedd9abf37f0fec08313b105ec0f1306821ff1b0f818ce2492c85169a165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:02:47 - 12:10:20","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T12:02:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:10:20+08:00","duration":453,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":906,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時2分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請經濟部長郭部長。"],["主席：再請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。你上臺之後不斷地說不缺電、不缺電，我現在給你看一張圖，這是台電的圖，備轉容量在過去已經有7天低於10%了，最近的6月9日，今天是6月12日，6月9日備轉容量率9.49%，備轉容量284.5萬瓩，部長，夏天還沒有到咧！前幾天我們梅雨季節，天氣很涼快，用電還少咧！你已經有7次低於10%，我就問你，你說不缺電，那為什麼你們對台塑的麥寮1號機還要延長1年呢？它是燃煤的，它把它改成燃氣體的，結果你們就是怕沒電，60萬瓩把它買下來，再延1年到明年底，你要不要回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，低於10%大概就這麼一次啦！我們的意思是說，在10%左右，還可以容許幾個機組它如果有狀況的時候，這些備載的狀況是這樣子，所以應該不至於在這個情況之下會跳電。"],["賴委員士葆：馬上到夏天了喔！夏天熱喔！現在都超過30度喔！來，我就納悶了，納了悶了！部長，聽好喔！核三廠的1號機，裝置容量有多少？你告訴我，台電應該知道，打pass一下。"],["郭部長智輝：98萬瓩。"],["賴委員士葆：98萬，我這裡的數字是95萬，將近100萬，這個東西我們法都給你改了，讓你可以申請，不要前面5年，結果你後來縮回去，你原來講核二、核三修法完畢以後就可以延役，大家覺得唉呀！你有企業家精神，說實話啊！結果24小時不到，吃一頓飯，然後被民進黨立委打幾個巴掌，縮回去了！郭部長，你失去我對你的期待，你失去我對你的尊敬，企業家有的是什麼？有的就是我照實，照業務上怎麼來，你企業做得這麼成功，結果部長，你還好意思說你希望能夠做滿4年，你知道有哪一個經濟部長做滿4年？你告訴我。"],["郭部長智輝：我是回答說1個任期是4年。"],["賴委員士葆：你查一查，那是跟院長一起的，院長沒有做過4年的，除了蘇貞昌第二次回鍋。過去從2000年以後的院長，有的1年多，賴清德2年左右，跟院長一起啦！你講這個話，說要做滿4年，有一點類似什麼？這句話沒有很好聽，但是我的感覺就是這樣，我的「fu」就是這樣，叫青蛙打哈欠─好大的口氣！你知道嗎？跟著院長走，院長沒有4年的，除了蘇貞昌是很奇怪的，剛好這樣讓他賺到，其他幾乎沒有4年的，有的1年，有的2年，跟著院長走，你怎麼說你要做4年？這代表你很不進入狀況耶！然後現在我們感覺到，你對SRF怎麼突然又發一個可以推薦函呢？你們可能又發給桃園，那3家可以推薦它進桃園觀音的桃科，為什麼你要發？我請教你，為什麼你要發？"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們不是主管單位，桃園才是主管單位。"],["賴委員士葆：你不是主管你就不要發，你何必發呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有發喔！"],["賴委員士葆：你發了，怎麼沒有發？推薦函啊！不然它怎麼……"],["郭部長智輝：我們只是它來訴願，然後透過訴願委員會把它退回去，是訴願委員會決定的……"],["賴委員士葆：後來准了，又可以了。"],["郭部長智輝：不是經濟部決定的。"],["賴委員士葆：訴願委員會就是你經濟部底下的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有、沒有，報告委員，這個訴願委員會一共有11位委員。"],["賴委員士葆：裡面都是經濟部的官員，大部分。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，經濟部的官員只有2位，其他9位是外面的學者跟專家。"],["賴委員士葆：主要是你們主導。我跟你講，國民黨的立法委員有一個將軍，陳永康上將他推了兵推，他講了一個概念，不要再擔心老共打我們能夠撐多久之類的，重要的是一打仗，臺灣的電能不能撐2天48小時？醫療能不能撐48小時？我就是請問你，因為我剛剛去問了國安局長，他說你才有答案，能不能撐48小時？就是打仗的時候撐48小時，供電無虞，請你回答。"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我不是專家，我沒有辦法回答。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你是專家，拜託！電是你管的，怎麼不是專家呢？"],["郭部長智輝：打仗的時候……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，打仗的時候，電是你管的啊！怎麼不是呢？"],["郭部長智輝：打仗的時候，我想這個是由國家調度的，不是經濟部可以調度的。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有、沒有，我剛才去問國安局局長，他說經濟部管的，要經濟部長回答，所以我來這裡問你。"],["郭部長智輝：如果以電網的韌性，我們是可以的。"],["賴委員士葆：48小時撐得住？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：撐得住？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：因為電很重要喔！電如果撐不住的話，你醫療就有問題，血漿就有問題，冷鏈就有問題。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有問題。"],["賴委員士葆：你參加過兵推沒有？兵推。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：有機會參加兵推，請你特別注意這一塊，現在大家都覺得說兩岸打仗怎麼樣，其實兩岸打仗，電最重要，電的韌性，電最重要，這是台電董事長告訴你的，我請你回去study一下，好好做功課啦！不要張大口就要做4年，如果你完全沒有自己的mindset，然後隨波逐流，這樣你是做不到4年啦！真的，我都覺得你「shaky」、「shaky」，好好加油吧！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：剛剛賴士葆委員講的是推薦文，你們回答的是訴願委員會的結果，所以雞同鴨講，還是要給賴士葆委員說明清楚。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員做詢答，4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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這個下次我再來問部長還有啊"},{"start":584.865,"end":612.314,"text":"現在老師講說在學校寄校規跟校話一樣校規變校話像我們以前小時候大家怕被寄校規為什麼因為寄大過三個大過退學我們現在在學校寄了十個大過沒事然後反而還增加老師的負擔老師為了寄大過還要寫報告寄學生大過還要寫報告那請問一下部長這個校規寄了十個大過都沒有對學生沒有任何影響你不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":613.476,"end":641.767,"text":"要怎麼處理啊我想有關學生的違規當他某種程度他已經人地不宜啦我們看怎麼樣去協助他我這邊一個建議好不好我覺得我們還是要設立很多中介組織就是說你今天一個學生他一直犯校規也許他有校園暴力行為記得十個大過要嘛他就待在云南學校要嘛轉到另外一個學校成為另外一個學校的問題"},{"start":643.367,"end":657.956,"text":"那你有解決任何問題嗎?沒有啊?今天是不是應該要有一個中介組織讓他先到中介組織接受訓練或是上學然後再做處置嘛你不能說把校規當作是完全沒有那個阻力啊"},{"start":659.489,"end":686.039,"text":"我同意委員說的對這些已經進入需要關懷的我覺得我們教育當然學生人權很重要這些少數學生人權很重要可是我們更應該思考是怎麼樣保護更多善良的學生讓他們可以在一個無憂無慮的教育環境下學習這是應該也是教育部應該要注重的點這也就是今天為什麼我們要討論霸凌跟毒品好不好部長下一次我再來跟你討論謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":689.355,"end":689.695,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":713.308,"end":735.266,"text":"部長,上任應該三個星期了,應該駕輕就熟,進入狀況中了應該可以看得出來,特別是像今天談新世代,存出不窮的教育困境"},{"start":736.175,"end":750.614,"text":"那解方在哪裡呢?看起來目前都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳問題非常多那部長應該會覺得你自己看法有什麼根本解方嗎?"},{"start":752.185,"end":775.056,"text":"我想教育這一個人才培育是國家的希望那當然不能只靠學校教育我們需要家庭教育也需要社會大眾多一份對學校教育的一個支持謝謝所以呢對這個部長這個觀念就跟我不謀而合就像現在"},{"start":776.016,"end":776.416,"text":"張雅琳"},{"start":796.192,"end":813.598,"text":"整個家庭教育這個就代溝越加的嚴重所以這是一個整體的啦這整體所以呢我在提的這個壯世代裡面特別提到是高齡化與少子化的雙解方其實這事情是議題之兩面"},{"start":815.859,"end":832.111,"text":"我們不可能去放棄到另外三分之一的越來越多的高齡化的這一群人讓他跟社會脫節然後去致力解決另外三分之一的人是不可能的所以呢你為什麼會成出不窮的困境"},{"start":833.372,"end":860.642,"text":"永無止境的惡性循環越來越嚴重部長也知道上次你有在5月31日行政院長總質詢的時候我有提出壯世代的質詢部長也有上台備詢那一次院長有答應成立行政院的壯世代專案小組"},{"start":862.202,"end":879.669,"text":"所以當然在這裏面教育部也納在這個小組裏面所以這個應該是願意這個肯定要推動的政策所以這個那我也看到這個部長在接受媒體採訪的時候有一段話"},{"start":881.345,"end":903.578,"text":"你說大家都在招18歲的學生那希望能夠推動讓30歲以上的人口能更自由的進出高等教育進行終身教育我想這是你的理念就是我們過去就像大學就是18歲在念的那沒有看到這麼多的空間其他的好像置之不管"},{"start":904.378,"end":912.169,"text":"所以部長有這樣的理念所以我也希望寄望於你啦啟動第三人生大學是你的使命"},{"start":914.14,"end":941.601,"text":"也很感謝其實這四個月來我一直纏著教育部對第三人生大學的推動也有給我一個正式的回函對於這份回函我是給予肯定可以看得出教育部是有用心的不是敷衍一下的是有在進行但是我現在還是要繼續的把這件事情落實"},{"start":944.543,"end":970.422,"text":"希望鄭部長延續之前的承諾然後繼續來推動第三人生大學因為我相信你剛上來這個太多的事物要理解的不過我也請這個部長對這個議題重中之重這個議題會解決到教育部太多的問題所以希望而且是有800萬的壯士代因應期待對部長你的期待"},{"start":972.932,"end":993.277,"text":"在這份回覆當中教育部提出第三人生大學有三個階段第一個就短期的是短期是委託專業團隊進行第三人生大學核心課程模組的研發那中期開始規劃第三人生大學的試辦計畫"},{"start":995.117,"end":1014.924,"text":"那長期可以第三人稱大學與學位的銜接有提出一個短中期的計畫但是在這裡我沒有看到時程跟如何落實可以看出來理念上是有納入這個部裡的規劃所以呢"},{"start":1020.97,"end":1044.386,"text":"我要給部長提供一些建議短期規劃當中主要在核心課程的模組研發在這裡我要特別提醒教育部千萬要了解壯世代的概念不要侷限在勒領銀髮的思維因為"},{"start":1047.89,"end":1067.262,"text":"所以要請相關的同仁這個狀態的相關的文章已經非常多了成千上萬的在網路上都有務必要去研讀要去了解如果不夠的話請跟我接洽好不好我非常樂意去上課"},{"start":1069.934,"end":1095.966,"text":"現在很多的醫學都在證明老人不是沒有用的像這個華盛頓的醫學裡面他研究說首領的大腦左右半球的互動變得更和諧他的創意跟智能持續在躍進創作力可能比年輕人更強通常會覺得年紀大沒有創意但是這裡說創作力可能更強"},{"start":1097.526,"end":1112.116,"text":"第二點是首領大腦雖然不如年輕的時候快但是靈活性會提升而且能夠做出正確的決定而且比較少受到負面情緒的影響人類的智力活動高峰出現在60到80歲之間那我覺得"},{"start":1116.178,"end":1128.745,"text":"我們通常我就要翻轉這個觀念就覺得很多人包括我自己就覺得60歲沒人所以這個教育部要教育他們你很棒 要給他加油"},{"start":1131.89,"end":1148.445,"text":"首先就是這個要翻轉這個啦我看到現在真的很多的都是因法族思維要把它翻轉到壯世代的思維那完全不一樣這兩個是完全不同的設定那這教育部非常重要的教育工作"},{"start":1149.745,"end":1172.931,"text":"其實他們人生追求不一樣,過去的人就搶人生那到了第三人生,第三人生在追求什麼首先要建立他的哲學基礎我們人類的知識只有到第二人生而已第三人生是一片空白那教育在這方面的研究在追求自我實現那有關這個我想教育部的專家非常多要來致力追求這個"},{"start":1175.797,"end":1190.596,"text":"首先在做這個之前不要憑空想像要針對壯世代的需求來做調查其實我們在民間已經也在進行這個工作很多了我有提出一個80項需求大調查"},{"start":1191.797,"end":1215.403,"text":"這目前在進行中當然我們民間的力量很有限像教育部如果有的話可以啦你們也要更專注的研究以後瞭解他們不然你憑空想像都是因法族的需求所以這一個的調查我在進行像工商司法提出來它是可以捲起千堆血它不是我們的負擔跟依賴"},{"start":1217.661,"end":1242.071,"text":"第二個中間的中段當中就是事辦事辦當中目前的回覆裡面有提出社區大學、樂嶺大學、空中大學還有面臨轉型挑戰的大專院校優先徵詢我覺得這個一定要跳脫這種樂嶺大學、社區大學這種概念不是把他們的課程改良一下就好了因為它是全然不同的"},{"start":1242.731,"end":1264.045,"text":"所以我倒是會覺得這些面臨轉型的這些大學不要輔導待退而能夠積極的轉型他來做這個第三人生大學給他一條生路那像現在也可以看得出來因為少子化目前已經用12所那預計8年之內會再導致10所大學那不要只是輔導待退"},{"start":1265.286,"end":1288.283,"text":"而不是把他輔導這個積極的轉型因為其實這不是他的錯不是他的學校有問題、設備有問題而是因為少子化招不到學生嘛那開放第三人稱大學有300萬人要報名啊你為什麼這可以救他們啊為什麼不積極的所以這不能拖延積極的同時解決給壯世代的希望同時解決這些高校的問題"},{"start":1290.425,"end":1309.84,"text":"長程的規劃就是跟這個學位的銜接但是這個不要變成長期我希望能夠更加快而且這個也不是那些被淘汰的如果那個未來的頂端的高級的這些優秀的大學也都應該要去朝向這一方面的開放"},{"start":1313.533,"end":1332.844,"text":"所以最後我要請部長是否因為這個的想法應該都有我非常肯定但是現在對執行的做法還有時間表這樣子的一個架構是不是能夠在一個月之內對短中長期這樣子的提供給本席"},{"start":1333.932,"end":1357.266,"text":"我想謝謝委員的質詢我們會來在一個月內提出來因為委員所勾勒的那一個圖像事實上跟我們的想像是一樣的我們也在做滾動式的修正我相信他未來不應該只是樂齡大學社區大學空大他應該在一般大學裡面就應該看到一個人生的一個轉換或者許多的一個更豐富的"},{"start":1358.046,"end":1361.187,"text":"本委員會今天最有激發人心的就是告訴我們60歲到80歲是具有智慧是最高的好不好這完全挑戰我的認知心理學通常25歲之後記憶力就下降了請接受這個事實好嗎好"},{"start":1388.273,"end":1395.321,"text":"我們在張雅琳委員質詢完畢之後呢我們進行三個臨時提案的處理那我們接下來請張雅琳委員謝謝有請部長跟警政署好部長跟警政署謝謝"},{"start":1415.471,"end":1437.273,"text":"早安,就是說今天我想要來針對於這個青少年的部分來跟部長跟大家來做一個討論就是說我們現在雖然說從很多的數字不管從警政署或是校安通報的數字我們好像那個青少年使用的毒品的人口都在下降但是我其實也有看到一個107年食藥署的全國物質使用調查"},{"start":1438.374,"end":1463.757,"text":"他說呢第一個我們現在使用的形態非常多元所以這個是一個問題第二個問題是大多數使用的地方都在同學或朋友家裡也就是說他不是消音通報會統計到的校園他也不是青春專案會掃蕩到的KTV、網咖、夜店都不是那這個地方家內使用的數字我們現在是有掌握的嗎"},{"start":1464.858,"end":1476.503,"text":"我想要了解在這個部分因為我們這樣子要怎麼去說我們使用的人口是下降的因為搞不好他是不是在家裡我們根本都沒有看到都沒有捕獲到對 所以我想要知道我們怎麼去掌握這些家內使用的狀態"},{"start":1477.754,"end":1499.95,"text":"說明一下目前我們教育部掌握到有關涉毒的學生人數除了一部分是由警方查獲的以外有另外一部分是經由學校特定學生提報做尿塞經過檢驗之後發現是陽性的而列入村會輔導的個案那有少部分的學生是因為自己感到困擾主動向師長求助我們列入輔導的個案"},{"start":1501.688,"end":1522.55,"text":"現在看起來好像都是學生有覺察或是我們發現學生有異狀然後我們邀請他來做那我想要知道就是說我們如何去判斷學生有異狀這件事情因為我看到我們的報告裡面都一直有想說我們有掌握這些高風險的我們是有一些篩選機制讓學老師們有意識嗎或是讓同學有意識我們做這塊的宣導是嗎"},{"start":1524.124,"end":1552.674,"text":"先說明如果學生有涉毒的情況可能會出現精神狀態不佳比如說倦怠或者情緒高漲這樣的異常的狀況或者是出現異常的比如說出手突然變得很闊綽之類的這些異常的狀況都很有可能是學校會把它提報為特定學生那另外就是有一部分的學生可能是中離中錯或者休學之後返校復學這些個案我們也都會提報為特定學生進行尿塞"},{"start":1553.393,"end":1557.795,"text":"如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件?"},{"start":1572.959,"end":1588.489,"text":"接下來我們就直接跳到第二個問題就是新型態的毒品其實是越來越多元那這個像這個喵喵三年內奪去了205命那我想要知道說我們現在做的這些尿酸尿檢是新型態的毒品都能夠掌握得到嗎?"},{"start":1589.52,"end":1607.121,"text":"我們目前查獲的個案當中還包括尿塞查獲個案統計前五大當中像新型毒品是混合型的或者彩虹菸這個其實都在前五排名之內所以其實對這樣新型態的部分我們在查獲的個案是有發現的而且比例不低"},{"start":1609.702,"end":1635.428,"text":"這部分就是我肯定教育部的努力再來就是說我有一個問題就是說我們說人數都在下降可是我發現一個數字很奇怪國小現在才到四月以前一整年大概二到四案可是現在一到四月才四個月已經三案那是我如果這樣去推算我們今年的人數可能就會超過過去的新高那到底發生了什麼事情在國小端我們的掌握是什麼"},{"start":1636.926,"end":1659.546,"text":"剛才提過其實年紀比較小的小朋友大部分都是好奇、毋庸的多那很多時候可能是來自於同才或者所認識的其他成年人提供給他嘗試使用的那剛才提到因為現在新興毒品很厲害是因為它混合成包括咖啡包、奶茶包那我們現在在國小的作為是什麼因為這個數字這樣看起來是非常不樂觀欸"},{"start":1660.247,"end":1683.124,"text":"我們就是跟委員報告我們現在國小階段最主要的採訪是入班宣導每一個班都要有村會職工或者輔導老師進去做宣導會教小朋友辨識奶茶包、咖啡包甚至郵票甚至軟糖都有可能是所以不要吃任何陌生人提供給他或者是不是我們所熟悉的食品東西否則就有可能誤食"},{"start":1684.38,"end":1686.301,"text":"我們現在在國小跟國中的部分其實入班宣導的部分比例都有達到百分之百"},{"start":1705.948,"end":1723.513,"text":"我們為了確定成效其實我們有做學生的抽樣的問卷調查瞭解學生是不是有接獲毒品造成的危害等等的資訊那這些資訊是不是可以匯控提供給我們好 我們每年都有定期調查其實那個百分比都有在提高以目前最近一次的調查來講大概有達到95%還有5%的學生是沒有收到這樣的訊息"},{"start":1728.254,"end":1748.199,"text":"接下來每一季如果有做這個小學的濫用統計的話都提到我辦公室我想要知道這個趨勢有沒有因為我們有所作為而有下降那再來就是說因為其實大多數使用的都在同學家大八成的小朋友拿到毒品都是透過朋友我們應該如何介入這些用毒青少年的同儕網路"},{"start":1749.919,"end":1769.77,"text":"我先講這個就是說我們現在雖然有做陸班選導但我只是在思考一件事情那我就提供給教育部來做參考我們是不是可以建立一個匿名通報的機制因為其實我知道小朋友彼此都會說欸我知道哪一班有這件事情那我們是不是有個這樣的機制可以來做使用第二個再來就是說因為是朋友可是我們現在所"},{"start":1770.45,"end":1796.563,"text":"提供的這些宣導單章裡面我們都是跟他講勇於拒絕不要輕易嘗試可是朋友之間就會說啊你試一下啦沒關係啦這樣子的話術我們先提供這個話術根本沒有幫助他可以拒絕是不是可以找兒少代表一起來討論我們現在這些宣傳單章要怎麼樣才可以真正的貼近他們的環境讓他們可以真的遠離毒害這件事情可不可以做得到我們在兒少代表的部分來討論"},{"start":1799.927,"end":1815.64,"text":"我們會來努力邀請二十二個來參與討論跟委員報告其實我們過去有考慮到如何讓學生關注這個議題他們自己來討論如何來拒絕毒品所以我們其實也有辦理微電影的競賽就是希望學生他們參與他們會找他們有興趣的題材跟情境"},{"start":1818.342,"end":1819.423,"text":"我們過去在處理的時候比較沒有特別邀請耳哨代表來討論"},{"start":1836.714,"end":1836.914,"text":"教育部部長"},{"start":1867.859,"end":1868.12,"text":"舉舉辦多少場次?"},{"start":1869.694,"end":1896.769,"text":"跟委員報告現在手上沒有這個資訊好沒關係那會後提供給我齁因為其實這個跟如何第一個協助他不要進入這個毒害的領域第二個就是當他離開之後我們要怎麼樣子讓家庭可以協助他因為這是避免他再犯的齁所以再來這個私用毒品再犯防治統治的計畫我目前只有看到109年內有沒有更新的數據啊這個數據到底是誰可以提供給我"},{"start":1899.256,"end":1899.757,"text":"我們手上都有這個數據"},{"start":1914.858,"end":1917.479,"text":"我們目前非在學的部分會由縣市政府的少府會會同社會局跟教育局共同來協助輔導"},{"start":1932.824,"end":1945.834,"text":"對,但是因為我現在看起來的那個因為6個月在通報跟6到12個月在通報的數字其實在非在學的部分都是在增加的啦所以這個是由教育部來提供給我相關的數據嘛那最後一題把握時間"},{"start":1951.383,"end":1965.798,"text":"我們現在在校安通報的霸凌數據上面我們是12.3%可是因為根據聯合國全世界校園霸凌的調查報告其實全世界是30.3%那不管是不是除了聯合國之外"},{"start":1967.199,"end":1991.278,"text":"我們在2019年台灣傳播調查資料庫的調查也有指出國小生、國中生、高中生被霸凌的比率分別是41.46%、31.97%、15.16%包含或是最近額幅每一年都會做這個數字數字都遠高於我們教育部提供的數字我想知道這個落差是什麼是我們沒有"},{"start":1992.859,"end":2018.869,"text":"我不曉得部長了不了解啦就是說因為我知道就是以前在開這個兒少事故委員會的時候兒少代表就說啦我們在做這些校園統霸凌的這些問卷調查由後往前收或是都收到老師那邊沒有人敢真實的填寫所以這是一個很大的問題那他們也一直不停的提出來是不是可以透過網路的方式來做調查他們才能夠真實的說出來那這個部分我們到底是不是可以去做什麼樣子的改善讓真實的數據可以被呈現呢"},{"start":2020.762,"end":2049.045,"text":"跟委員說明我想我們的比例只有16.3跟其他國家不一樣很可能是計算的基礎不一樣因為我們現在目前的這個基礎是用通報的當作分母以查證確認成立的案件當分子那其他的這個部分可能並不是他可能是透過類似像問卷調查然後從抽樣當中去發現然後另外就是認定的期程是有關係的像我們的校園生問卷是以上個學期發生的事情以半年內是不是有發生的感受"},{"start":2049.445,"end":2052.606,"text":"其實我們是有校園霸凌現況調查在你的112年的預算書有這些計畫但是我完全找不到這個計畫的內容"},{"start":2072.671,"end":2072.691,"text":"獲得獎項"}]}},{"id":"153863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81923f1820de1c506a20fec08313b105ec0f1306821ff1b0f816d0563d7b3527adf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:52:17 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12:02:28","影片長度":"00:10:11","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:52:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:02:28+08:00","duration":611,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":853,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時52分）謝謝召委，我先請劉主委跟郭部長。"],["主席：請兩位。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委跟部長辛苦了。總統在6月4日的臺北國際電腦展有提到，未來的三大發展策略是把臺灣打造成AI島，我先請教兩位，郭部長，AI這件事情其實經濟部也做了相當長的一段時間，那現在投入多少資源，未來預定要投入多少資源來爭取讓臺灣成為AI島，甚至更多的國際大廠到臺灣來投資？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在就是積極地請國外的大廠來臺灣投資研發中心或者數據中心，我順便在這邊補充一下，我們在邀請國際大廠來臺灣的時候，因為我們現在的人才就像剛才陳委員講的，擔心會這樣子，所以我們現在改變，就是說它要來臺灣，如果每一家公司要1,000位人才，我們希望它帶進50%的人才進來，這部分都是由我自己在溝通，所以我們目前大概談了3家要來臺灣設數據中心，那麼它應該是不會發生來我們臺灣搶人才的這個現象。"],["賴委員瑞隆：哪3家可以講嗎？不能講？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是保密。"],["賴委員瑞隆：可不可以請司長也補充一下？我們過去花的錢跟未來預定要投入的錢，我們應該花了相當多的經費了啦！司長要不要補充一下？"],["邱司長求慧：如果包含外商補助的錢，光一些技術的研發，外商的一些補助的話，超過100億以上。"],["賴委員瑞隆：超過100億了。"],["邱司長求慧：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以現在在進行當中，不管是輝達或是AMD都是。"],["邱司長求慧：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：政府都投入了錢，就像當年在半導體產業我們也投入相當多的資源，然後引進來臺灣，這個也在做，部長，我希望未來持續啦！好不好？一方面當然就是國家的資源，我們希望把AI島建立起來的話，就需要投入更多的資源，我們希望這個持續來進行。","再來，我問一下國發會主委，好不好？"],["主席：再請主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，國發會未來包括國發基金，預定要投入多少資源來做這件事情？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：國發基金目前是同意數發部，我們投入第一個，100億的創業創新基金，專門給AI的部分。另外，其實我們之前有funding經濟部大概100億，現在用了7億，還有九十多億，92億多。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以投入了200億的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：然後之外，我們今年也匡列國發基金的投資可以到188億，所以這些都可以拿來運用，其中專注AI的，至少有100億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果我們要落實AI島的概念，事實上，當然政府的投入重要，然後看國發基金，包括經濟部的相關資源都是重要的一環，我們希望整個匡列出來。","我要提醒的是，到現在為止，全臺灣當然是不缺電，但是北部在電力上是有缺口的，如果統計資料沒有更新，其實是有470萬瓩的缺口，北部啦！臺灣南部的部分，高雄我也講過很多次，高雄用電60%，40%是中送、北送，現在包括興達跟大林燃氣機組都還在興建。我要不斷地提醒這件事情，區域均衡發展上，不要讓南部在電力上面不斷供應的同時，產業聚落的形成都在北部，所以現在包括大家在談的，不管是輝達或者是AMD都在談投資研發中心的時候，我們希望這些思考，比如像輝達，現在傳出來，當然它考慮的點是臺北、臺南、高雄，但是我們希望它能夠更清楚地知道，我剛剛講到，政府其實是有給予補助、給予補貼的，我們希望在引導的過程中也要不斷地讓他們知道，一方面政府希望南北兩大核心的發展，AI生態系統應該是南北聚落都去完成，北部相對容易完成，但是南部會比較辛苦一點，但也就是因為這樣，所以政府要施加一些力道。包括電力的部分，當南部這麼充分供應電力的時候，AI也是耗掉相當多電力的時候，那更應該往南部來移動，我先問一下部長，同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們經濟部的立場就是所有的外商要來臺灣我們都歡迎，那到達哪一個城市，我們尊重他的選擇。不過我在這邊跟委員報告，廠商他在選擇的時候，不會只考慮水跟電，他考慮的是他可以找到多少人。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以水、電、人才，包括場地都是重要的一些據點。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是這個東西一定要不斷地、長期地去做，如果我們不有意識去處理的話，其實北部的聚落是容易形成的，所以我要講的是，既然國家有資源下去的時候，南部的聚落也形成的時候，待會會請數發部，為什麼我們現在講南北兩大AI的聚落？也就是這樣嘛！希望它能夠有一個形成好的聚落的方式，如果只是順著所有的話，你可以預期基本上多數都是在臺北，所以我還是希望部長對於這件事情要很有意識，我知道現在經濟部有一些計畫在進行當中，我也希望部長能夠承諾，既有進行的計畫不要去改變跟影響到，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不會去影響既有進行的計畫。"],["賴委員瑞隆：進行中的計畫務必要去落實來完成。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，接下來要請教主委，因為時間非常有限，主委認同我這樣的看法嗎？就是國發基金投入的時候，我也希望南北兩大，我知道現在國發會跟數發部有在進行一些南北的AI生態系、AI生態園區的概念，主委，朝這個方向來規畫，讓實體園區在南北形成兩大聚落，主委同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，均衡臺灣是總統的政策，所以我們會落實這個政策。"],["賴委員瑞隆：實體園區其實是一個政策嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要講啦！當然我知道有一些壓力之後又變成虛擬，如果走回虛擬的話，其實就是空的嘛！就是說它一定要是實體，而且臺灣的兩大聚落必然是南北兩大聚落，北部以臺北為核心，包括到新竹這一塊，一定是一個聚落，南部一定是以高雄跟臺南為核心的一個聚落，而現在不管是從亞灣或者是臺南的南科園區等等，其實都看得出來已經有聚落形成了，包括台積電的進駐等等，我認為那個聚落已經形成，現在是政府要更加大力道，我也希望在實體園區的部分，國發會未來能夠大力支持實體園區南北兩大聚落完成，主委，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個請主委支持，兩位請坐。我接下來請教一下數發部好嗎？"],["主席：請回座。請數發部。"],["賴委員瑞隆：次長，請教一下，現在南北AI生態園區的規劃方向，目前是怎麼樣？"],["林次長宜敬：就如同剛才郭部長所講的，其實我們在發展科技的時候，最重要是人才，對於軟體業來講尤其是這樣子。軟體業的廠商他設廠，應該說他設公司主要的考量不是在土地跟廠房，而是在於人才，而人才總是會選擇他最想住的地方去居住，我們看美國的軟體產業興起，其實也是走這條路。至於聚落的形成……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我請教一下，南北AI生態園區的設置是持續在進行當中嘛？什麼時候會把它規劃出來？"],["林次長宜敬：因為我們數發部負責的是軟體，也就是軟體產業這個地方，目前重點是在於生態而不在於園區，那國發會這邊會有整體考量，因為國發會這邊會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：那這件事情是由數發部主導，還是由國發會來主導？"],["林次長宜敬：如果包含硬體的話，是由國發會主導；如果單單軟體部分的話，是由數發部來主導。"],["賴委員瑞隆：整體的總的規劃是由誰來？它一定有一個主導，還是主委講一下好了，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：整體總的部分是我們這邊在主導，整個均衡在北、中、南，我們現在都會逐步規劃。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望規劃出來的方案給我們一份參考，好不好？我也希望國發基金再大力支持這樣的一個計畫。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，在不影響保密原則之下，我們會送過去。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。再來，我也要提醒，現在包括半導體學院，不管是中山大學的，甚至清大，包括陽明交大的部分，其實在高雄也設置了這些半導體學院，我覺得善加運用這樣的優勢啦！我要講的是，其實人才的聚落一定是政府不斷地刻意去引導，教育部的次長也在這邊，我希望持續地支持南部人才養成的部分，不要讓南部永遠只是作為工業，不管是電力、石化或者是港口所需的東西不斷地供應而已，但是在新產業的形成或人才聚落形成的時候反倒缺乏力道，我認為那個對南北的均衡發展是不利的。","我希望國發會主委還有各位部長、次長要不斷地把這件事情放在心上，我認為這個才是執政的重要價值，位子都會來來去去，但是未來怎麼樣讓臺灣留下均衡發展，讓人才能夠留在每個地方適才適所地發展，我認為這個才是執政上最重要的價值，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：與各位共勉啦！好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們一定會在北、中、南發展均衡。"],["主席：還好主委你講北、中、南，不然我剛才聽了心驚膽跳，一直南北、南北AI生態園區，我們臺中跟南跟北都一樣，都符合最好的條件，北、中、南才能夠均衡，還好你講到這一點，因為你有答應我臺中一定要納入，謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","蔡易餘","羅智強","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教\n育部首長就「為掌握生成式 AI 等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化 AI 生態系及充\n實 AI 人才與產業 AI 化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用 AI 賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.40596875,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.53659375,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.657843750000001,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12.012218750000002,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16.028468750000002,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":20.65221875,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":21.44534375,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23.504093750000003,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.85034375,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.773468750000006,"end":63.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.81846875,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.76096875,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.56159375,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.60721875,"end":99.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":98.20971875000001,"end":98.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":99.13784375,"end":107.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.46971875000001,"end":111.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.19909375,"end":119.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":119.74221875,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.82659375,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":119.97846875,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":143.40096875,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":149.37471875,"end":149.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.40846875,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.59409375,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.47409375,"end":181.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":169.99596875,"end":170.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":171.07596875000002,"end":171.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.55096875,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":182.97284375,"end":191.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":191.56221875,"end":236.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":236.46659375000002,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":245.20784375000002,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":255.72096875000003,"end":276.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":276.81471875,"end":282.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":282.56909375000004,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.03284375000004,"end":286.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":286.53471875,"end":286.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.55159375,"end":301.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.19034375,"end":305.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.58221875000004,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":306.97034375000004,"end":350.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.54346875000005,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":350.59221875000003,"end":352.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.87909375000004,"end":351.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.92096875000004,"end":353.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":353.30909375000005,"end":357.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.42721875,"end":353.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.26221875000005,"end":356.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.00471875,"end":357.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":357.10596875000005,"end":359.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":360.21096875,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":370.06596875,"end":371.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":372.25971875000005,"end":375.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":375.56721875000005,"end":375.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":376.37721875,"end":386.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":387.32909375,"end":389.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.53971875,"end":389.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":389.75909375000003,"end":428.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":429.01034375,"end":429.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":429.04409375,"end":429.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":430.12409375000004,"end":430.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":430.98471875,"end":432.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":432.53721875,"end":435.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":437.14409375,"end":437.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.65034375000005,"end":439.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":440.85659375,"end":441.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":441.56534375,"end":442.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":442.71284375000005,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speak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謝謝昭偉我先請那個劉朱偉跟郭部長我們請兩位好"},{"start":21.502,"end":47.039,"text":"主委跟部長辛苦了總統其實在6月4號的台北國際電腦展其實有提到未來的三大的發展策略是把台灣打造成AI島我先請教兩位國務長就是AI這件事情其實經濟部也做了相當長一段時間那現在投入多少資源未來一定要投入多少資源來爭取讓台灣成為AI島甚至更多的國際大廠來到台灣來投資"},{"start":49.202,"end":69.854,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是積極的在對國外的大廠來請他們來台灣投資那麼研發中心或者數據中心那剛才我想順便在這邊補充一下我們在邀請國際大廠來台灣的時候因為我們現在的人才就可能剛才陳委員他在講的"},{"start":71.455,"end":95.21,"text":"就是怕擔心這樣子所以我們現在改變改變的就是說他要來台灣如果每一家公司要一千位人才我們都希望他帶進50%的人才進來這部分都是由我自己在溝通所以我們現在目前大概談了三家就是要來台灣設數據中心的那麼他應該是不會發生來我們台灣搶人才的這個現象"},{"start":96.371,"end":125.311,"text":"哪三家可以講嗎這個是保密那個可不可以請司長也補充一下吧我們過去來花的錢跟未來一定要投入的錢好不好我們應該花了相當多的經費了啦司長要不要補充一下我們如果是連包含外商補助的錢的話幫一些技術的一些研發外商的一些補助的話超過100億以上超過100億了啦包括所以現在在進行當中不管是輝達或是AMD都是啦政府都投入了錢"},{"start":125.871,"end":149.203,"text":"就像當年在半導體產業我們也投入相當多的資源然後引進來台灣這個也在做部長我也希望未來持續好不好就是說一方面當然是國家資源當然我們希望把AI島建立起來的話就需要投入更多的資源我們希望這個持續來進行那再來問一下國發會主委好不好國發會未來我們再請主委主委對包括國發基金包括一定要投入多少資源來做這件事情"},{"start":150.303,"end":170.497,"text":"國家基金目前我們是已經同意目前是同意速發部我們投入第一個是100億的創業創新基金專門給AI的部分那另外其實我們另外之前有有Funding這個經濟部大概100億那現在用了7億還有90多億所以投入200億的一個"},{"start":171.898,"end":192.693,"text":"之外我們今年也匡列國發基金的投資可以有到188億所以這些都可以拿來運用那其中專注AI的至少有100億如果我們要落實這樣的AI導的概念的話事實上當然政府的投入重要然後看國發基金還有包括經濟或相關資源都是重要的一環我們希望來整個匡列出來"},{"start":193.473,"end":207.961,"text":"那我要提醒的是這個到現在為止其實全台灣當然是不缺電但是其實北部電力上是有缺口的電力上有缺口南部的在如果沒有更新那個統計其實有470萬的一個缺口北部"},{"start":209.442,"end":232.068,"text":"臺灣的南部的部分,高雄是有,我也講過很多次,高雄用電60%,40%是中宋北宋那現在還在,包括新達跟大嶺燃氣機組都還在興建那我要講的是說,就是不斷的提醒這件事情,區域均衡發展上不要讓南部在電力上面不斷的供應的同時的時候,產業的聚落都形成在北部"},{"start":232.848,"end":254.604,"text":"所以現在包括大家在談的很多不管是從輝達或者是AMD的部分都在談的這個研發中心的投資的時候那我們希望這些思考不要比如說像輝達現在傳起來有可能大家考慮的點是臺北、台南、高雄但我們希望他能夠更清楚的知道我剛剛講到政府其實是有給予補助"},{"start":256.945,"end":281.491,"text":"這個補貼的那我們希望這樣在引導的過程中也要不斷讓他們知道說一方面政府希望南北兩大核心的發展這個AI生態系統是應該南北聚落多去完成它這個才是北部相對容易完成但是南部會比較辛苦一點但是也就是因為這樣而政府要施加一些力道包括電力的部分當南部這麼充分供應電力說AI也是相當耗掉相當多的電力的時候那更應該往"},{"start":282.811,"end":301.304,"text":"南部來移動。」我先問一下部長同意這樣的看法嗎?報告委員我想我們經濟部的立場就是所有的外商要來台灣我們都歡迎到達哪一個城市我們尊重他的選擇不過我在這邊跟委員報告廠商他在選擇的時候不會只考慮水跟電"},{"start":303.223,"end":320.168,"text":"他考慮的是他可以找到多少人所以水、電、人才包括場地都是重要的一些據點但是這個東西一定要不斷的長期的去做如果我們有意識去處理的話所有的東西基本北部的據落是容易形成的所以我還講的是"},{"start":320.788,"end":349.8,"text":"既然國家有資源下去的時候南部的聚落也形成的時候為什麼我們現在講南北兩大AI的聚落也就是這樣希望它能夠有一個形成好的一個聚落的方式那如果只是順著所有的話那基本上你可以預期基本上多數都會在台北所以我還希望說這件事情部長要很有意識的那我也知道現在經濟部有一些計畫在進行當中我也希望部長能夠承諾既有進行的計畫不要去改變跟影響到好嗎"},{"start":351.08,"end":374.645,"text":"我們不會去影響既有進行的計畫進行這種計畫務必要去落實來完成是的好那接下來請教一下主委因為時間非常有限主委認同我這樣的看法嗎就國發基金的投入之後我也希望南北兩大那我知道現在國發會跟數法部有在進行一些南北的這個AI的生態系統AI生態園區的這樣的一個概念"},{"start":376.465,"end":395.68,"text":"主委,朝這個方向來規劃,讓實體園區讓南北形成兩大聚落,主委同意這樣的看法嗎?是的,均衡台灣是總統的政策,所以我們會落實這個政策實體園區其實是個政策嘛,我要講啦,當時我知道有一些壓力之後又變成虛擬,如果走為虛擬的話,那其實就是空的嘛"},{"start":396.32,"end":416.025,"text":"其實它一定要是實體而且台灣的兩大聚落必然是南北兩大聚落北部以台北為核心包括到新竹這一塊是一定是一個聚落南部一定是以高雄跟台南為核心的一個聚落而現在不管是從亞灣或者是台南的這個南科的園區等等其實都看得出來其實已經有聚落形成了包括"},{"start":417.265,"end":434.896,"text":"臺積電的一個進駐等我認為那個聚落已經形成那現在是要政府更加大那個力道那我也希望在實體園區的部分國發會未來能夠大力支持這個實體園區南北兩大聚落完成主委可以嗎可以可以這個請主委那個兩位請坐我接下來請教一下速發部好嗎副主委請回座我們請速發部"},{"start":441.743,"end":466.685,"text":"次長請教一下現在的這個南北的AI生態園區的規劃的方向目前是怎麼樣就如同剛才郭部長所講的其實我們在發展科技的時候最重要是人才對於軟體業來講尤其是這樣子那軟體業的主要的對於那個廠商的設廠的那個應該說設公司主要的考量不是在土地跟廠房而是在於人才"},{"start":467.245,"end":481.842,"text":"而人才總是會選擇他覺得最好的地方他最想住的地方去居住我們看美國的那個軟體產業的興起其實也是走這條路那至於說這個聚落的形成我請教一下南北的AI生態園區的設施這個持續在進行當中嗎什麼時候會把它規劃出來"},{"start":487.048,"end":513.004,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們的數發部負責的是軟體那軟體的尤其軟體產業這個地方我們並目前重點是在於生態而不在於園區那國發會這邊會有整體考量因為國發會這邊會那這件事情是由數發部主導還是由國發會來主導就是如果包含硬體的話是由國發部主導如果是單單軟體的部分的話是由數發部來主導那是由誰整體的總的規劃是由誰來他一定有一個還是主委講一下好了好不好"},{"start":518.211,"end":536.763,"text":"整體總的部分我們現在正在是我們這邊在主導那整個均衡在北、中、南都會我希望國發出來的方案給我們一份參考好不好那我也希望國發基金再大力支持這樣的一個計畫好的再不影響那個保密原則我們會送過去好"},{"start":538.164,"end":555.123,"text":"然後再來我也要提醒其實我們現在的包括半導體學院這個不管是中山大學的甚至清大包括陽明交大的部分其實都在高雄也設置了這些半導體學院我覺得善加運用這樣的一個優勢"},{"start":556.204,"end":576.592,"text":"那我要講的是其實人才的聚落其實一定是不斷的政府有刻意去引導教育部的次長在這邊我也希望持續的支持南部的這個人才的一個養成的部分不要讓南部永遠只是作為工業不管是電力或者是石化或者是這個港口所需的東西都不斷的供應而已但是在於"},{"start":577.853,"end":601.954,"text":"新產業的形成或人才聚落的形成的時候反倒缺乏力道我認為那個對於整個南北的均衡發展是不利的我希望這件事情國發會主委還有各位部長、次長要不斷地放在心上我認為這個才是執政的一個重要的價值位置都會來來去去但是未來怎麼樣讓台灣留下一個均衡發展讓人才能夠留在每個地方事才事所的發展我認為這個才是執政上最重要的價值"},{"start":602.614,"end":606.922,"text":"好不好 與各位共勉啦好 謝謝我們一定會在北中發展均衡"}]}},{"id":"153862","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153862","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81954a005ba6e7cdbc159a48fe1a1d57c38f1306821ff1b0f8151d9cde2851d34635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:49:53 - 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10點54分10點54接到委員跟委員報告喔是啊業者跟本席透露的消息是說他第一通電話其實打給的是我們的警察單位因為業者會覺得是說根本沒有想過說怎麼會有那麼離譜的事情是由一個偷渡客上岸之後能夠在岸上趴趴走或是他坐他的船"},{"start":332.691,"end":361.537,"text":"所以第一個時間想的是說應該是我們警務單位警務單位在跟他建議是說趕快應該要通報海巡署所以業者打118118完之後半個小時後海巡人員才到現場把他也逮捕而且這半個小時的過程如果不是業者很負責任的或是有這種國家意識或是社會責任感盡可能的來留住這一個人這人可能早就跑掉了"},{"start":362.352,"end":377.543,"text":"委員跟委員釐清一下我們10點20分巴黎守望哨他就發現這艘船不是國籍船是但是重點是業者不清楚嘛是10點54分你們也沒有通報業者業者是被撞到之後他的船的船尾被撞到被插撞"},{"start":378.123,"end":404.619,"text":"然後他把那個人留下來聽他的口音不是我們本國籍的人但是覺得說奇怪照理講不可能有偷渡客可以來我們河口內嘛也因此才會覺得是說他可能是我們相關治安問題結果後來打給海巡署海巡署才半個小時後才到場那這半個小時的空窗期其實是有賴業者用國家意識用社會責任來把那個人留在那邊欸"},{"start":405.379,"end":407.94,"text":"所以我現在講的就是這一件問題會讓大家國人沒有辦法接受是兩個部分第一擦撞你們及時講說全程監控"},{"start":428.624,"end":449.571,"text":"但是那差狀有半個小時的理論的狀況而半小時的理論狀況如果說我們以一般在路上有發生車禍造勢逃逸有沒有那個人跑掉今天好家在是什麼是這一個人有被我們逮捕所以我們才可以了解說他背後有什麼樣身份以及等等後續的狀況如果今天那個人就是造勢逃逸了"},{"start":451.257,"end":472.531,"text":"現在大家都睡不著了第二為什麼第一時間海巡居然會去告訴我們是告訴國人說在旁等待的海巡人員立即將這個男子逮捕說海巡人員嚴正以待靠岸之後立即逮人這分明跟現實狀況有出路啊所以你覺得現在我們懲處只懲處這10個人是不是"},{"start":475.43,"end":497.854,"text":"目前分署長到雷超首四位還會不會再繼續針對這個個案我現在有看到新聞報導是你的名字啊你的名字表示海巡人員嚴陣以待等快艇靠岸立即逮人你的名字講說船停靠碼頭在旁等待的海巡人員立即將這個男子給逮捕"},{"start":498.715,"end":506.589,"text":"換言之你們是不是在第一時間你們上期場觀也接收到不對的一個資訊還是說你們明明知道正確的資訊但是你們想要美化"},{"start":507.657,"end":514.119,"text":"11點10分這一艘快艇靠駁在渡船碼頭我們通常一車4人同時到現場所以11點10分是逮捕我們也有錄影帶這邊11點10分那這艘船是在11點10分靠駁碼頭剛才委員提醒的大概是在10點54分"},{"start":532.805,"end":534.647,"text":"但是通報的時間是不是比業者都還要來得晚現在狀況就是"},{"start":549.534,"end":577.134,"text":"副署長本席現在只講兩點點出來因為本席有跟業者通過電話也確實明白說當天的狀況業者他們很低調是因為他們覺得說這是無望之災但是重點在於是說我們怎麼會放任一個偷渡客一個不知道他目的為何的人進入到我們的河口並且上岸來做相關甚至還有媒體報導我不知道你們有沒有看到還有更離譜的是這一個男子上岸然後跟別人借電話打"},{"start":578.854,"end":605.589,"text":"有沒有這樣的狀況我們收到的資訊就是第1111點10分靠港我們通常在現場是所長帶著總共有4個人在現場當場逮捕所以副署長我覺得在這件事情上面我們在深度了解深度了解然後還有就是是不是這一波這樣子就結束了然後還有最重要的是他的目的到底為何國安局如果說沒有辦法告訴國人你適時的在"},{"start":606.63,"end":607.01,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"153861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81901f3599f8395fa7e182e407f268492bcf1306821ff1b0f8149d2664fa287e6015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:56:49 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12:02:02","影片長度":"00:05:13","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:56:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T12:02:02+08:00","duration":313,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":853,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時56分）謝謝主席，有請金管會彭金隆主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好。雖然今天的題目是說VASP淪為詐騙工具，但我們認為這有一點污名的感覺啦！本席相信官員也不是這樣想的，就像汽車可以拿來作案，也可能淪為詐騙工具，所有東西都有可能被惡意使用啦！其實虛擬貨幣就技術而言都是中立的，本席必須幫科學、技術說話。","當然，剛才的印象也非常深刻，本席相信您我都同意防制洗錢和詐欺犯罪的重要性，但是針對虛擬資產以及交易事業VASP的規範，我們也必須擔心是不是過於嚴苛對這個新興產業造成不必要的壓力。但是剛才您有提到，非常尊重明天會正式成立的公會，本席也予以讚賞和贊同，是不是給您一點時間分享一下，公會加上主管機關，怎麼樣做一個平衡？是不是一個好的作法？也請您說明一下為什麼公會非常重要？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。金管會過去對市場的監理就有一套模式，我先舉例，像銀行，我們有完善的法令，但是也有公會在運作，當然前提是它必須是納管的單位……"],["葛委員如鈞：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們剛才也向委員會報告，我們初步是先用洗錢防制法切入，再來我們希望它籌組公會，公會是一個自律組織，它不是一個法律約束，但是我們身為主管機關會強力監督。再來第三階段是輔以洗錢防制法，課以刑責、加重管理，最後我們會有專法來處理這件事情。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，很好，剛好這也是本席要問的。根據報告內容，金管會已經要求VASP業者制定自律規範，而且相關規範要經金管會核准，表示業者已經尋求並且也自我約束，積極自我管理，有相關的機制保護消費者。您剛才也提到，第三階段之後有登記制，也要符合洗錢防制法，而且洗錢防制法又有刑罰的標準。所以本席想請教一下主委，既然已經有自律規範，明天開始也有公會，那麼站在主管機關的立場，為何不給這些自律規範更多的時間驗證它的可能性，而要急於推動專法進行管控呢？是不是可以稍微回應一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。其實剛才委員說的專法應該是第四階段，按照時程，最快大概是明年上半年才會報院，接下來還要經過行政院審查，然後送到立法院審查，凝聚共識，我覺得會有一段很長的時間，在這個期間，我們不能不管打詐，所以我們先用洗錢防制法第二條修正案去做，但是我們也希望自律規範能趕快上路，用多方的方式彌補這段時間的空窗。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，謝謝主委。我們一樣也是有共識啦！公私協作可以有效平衡防弊與興利的目標，這一點本席相信我們都是非常重視的。您今天的報告也提到聯防通報、快速返還遭詐欺款項等等機制，這樣確實能夠提高防詐的效果，但是需要各方的高度協同。","請教一下主委，你們在實施時，如何確保相關單位能夠無縫合作？例如警察機關、司法機關、金融機構和VASP之間。對此，金管會有沒有關於內部教育或者技術、金流分析的工具？尤其是虛擬的金流，有沒有掌握一些具體的技術、工具？實施的方案和時間表如何？您是否認同本席的說法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這個監管對我們來說是很大的挑戰。我也不諱言，金管會的資源，從過去傳統的金融監理走到數位的監理，確實需要一段時間的調整，但是我們過去長期在推動金融科技發展的時候也累積了一些資源，未來我們會朝這個方向發展。至於剛才說的，我們需要補強的地方，我們也會加強補強，畢竟這已經是確定的趨勢，我們就要勇於面對。"],["葛委員如鈞：是。各國關於虛擬金流的分析，還有防詐的工具、技術，其實都有很深的著力，臺灣業者的能力也非常強，希望能夠持續做到公私協力。","最後，本席再次強調，虛擬資產作為一種新興科技，其實具備極大的發展潛力，因為它不需要圈地，不需要過多的水、電，現在已經有新的技術，所以政府應該鼓勵並支持產業的發展，不要一味強化監管。這個部分本席有看到您的精神，本席予以支持，請金管會持續平衡防弊與興利，給予自律組織和自律規範更多的時間與空間。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝指正。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢。","現在請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","接著請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ VASP ）淪為詐騙工\n具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.7690937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.620968749999999,"end":5.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.19471875,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.75346875000001,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.96659375,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.02284375000002,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.25159375,"end":181.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.96721875,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.03159375,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.97221875,"end":309.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.95721875000004,"end":313.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.35784375000003,"end":311.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.96534375000005,"end":312.30284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":21.758,"text":"金融主委有請彭主委委員好主委好我想今天雖然我們的這個題目有說VASP淪為詐騙工具但我們認為這有一點汙名的感覺我也相信這個官員也不是這樣想的汽車也可以拿來做這個作案"},{"start":22.278,"end":22.919,"text":"當然剛剛也非常印象深刻"},{"start":38.539,"end":62.739,"text":"您我相信您我都同意防制洗錢和詐欺犯罪的重要性也要針對虛擬資產及交易事業、VASP的規範我們也必須要擔心是不是過於嚴苛對這個新興產業造成不必要的壓力但剛剛您有提到非常尊重這個明天會正式成立的這個工會我也予以讚賞跟贊同那是不是給您一點時間來分享一下"},{"start":63.439,"end":86.699,"text":"用工會加上我們的這個主管機關怎麼樣來做一個平衡是不是一個好的做法是不是也能讓你說明一下為什麼工會其實非常的重要謝謝委員我想我們在金管會在過去對市場的監理呢就有一套模式像比如說我就先舉例像我們銀行我們有完善的法令但是也有工會在運作"},{"start":87.62,"end":113.722,"text":"那當然這個前提是它必須要是一個納管的單位對所以我們想說我們剛剛也跟委員會報告我們先初步呢先用《洗錢防制法》切入對然後再來呢我們希望它籌組工會工會是個自律組織它不是個法律約束但是我們是身為主管機關我們會強力的監督再來我們接下來第三階段服役《洗錢防制法》裡面可以行責加重這個管理最後我們有個專法來處理這件事情"},{"start":115.163,"end":142.042,"text":"那剛好也是我要問的根據報告內容金管會已經要求VASP業者制定自律規範而且相關規範要經金管會核准表示業者已經尋求並且也自我約束、積極自我管理有相關的機制來保護消費者您剛才也提到第三階段之後有登記制以及也要符合《洗錢防制法》以及《洗錢防制法》裡頭又有刑罰的標準"},{"start":144.184,"end":159.82,"text":"所以我想請教一下主委既然已經有自律規範也有工會從明天開始那麼正在主管機關的立場為何不給這些自律規範更多的時間來驗證它的可能性而要急於推動專法來進行管控呢是不是可以稍微回應一下"},{"start":160.42,"end":180.001,"text":"謝謝 其實剛才委員講的專法應該是第四階段是那等於說我們按照的時程最快我們大概就是明年的上半年才會提到報院報院呢那接下來還要經過院的審查送到大院來審查凝聚共事我覺得會有一段很長的時間那在這個中間我們打詐不能"},{"start":180.882,"end":190.951,"text":"不能不管所以我們先用《洗錢防制法》第2條修正去做但是我們也希望說我們的自律規範能趕快上路能夠用多方的方式來彌補這段時間的空窗"},{"start":191.482,"end":210.772,"text":"很好 謝謝主委我想我們一樣也是有共識公司協作可以有效平衡防弊與新利的目標這一點我相信我們都是非常重視的那您今天的報告也提到聯防通報的機制快速返還招詐欺款項等等的機制這個確實能夠提高防詐的效果"},{"start":211.152,"end":238.981,"text":"但需要各方的高度協同想請教一下主委在實施上如何確保相關的比如說警察機關、司法機關、金融機構和VASP之間能夠無縫的合作金管會對此有沒有一些關於內部教育或者是技術、金流分析的工具尤其是虛擬的金流有沒有一些具體的技術的掌握、工具的掌握實施的方案和時間表您是否認同我這一塊說法"},{"start":240.101,"end":267.384,"text":"當然這個監管對我們來講是很大的挑戰就是我也不會沿金管會的資源從過去傳統的金融監理走到數位的監理確實要一段的這個調整但是我們過去在長期在推動金融科技發展的時候我們也累積了一些資源那我想說未來我們會朝這個方向來發展那至於說裡面剛才講我們需要補強的地方我們會來加強補強因為畢竟這是已經是確定的趨勢我們就要勇於面對"},{"start":267.924,"end":290.442,"text":"我想各國關於這個虛擬金流的分析還有防詐的工具技術其實都有很深的著力臺灣的業者其實也這個能力非常強也希望能夠持續的做到公司協力那最後我再次強調啦虛擬資產作為一種新興科技它其實具備極大的發展潛力因為它不需要圈地不需要過多的水"},{"start":290.802,"end":308.333,"text":"也不需要過多的電到目前為止現在已經有新的技術了所以政府應該鼓勵並支持產業的發展不要一味的強化監管這個我有看到您的精神我予以支持請監管會持續的平衡防弊與新力給予自律組織和自律規範更多的時間與空間"}]}},{"id":"153860","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153860","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8196302a9bed8e231c0182e407f268492bcf1306821ff1b0f81628ecc4a3d608f005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:45:17 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11:56:34","影片長度":"00:11:17","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:45:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:56:34+08:00","duration":677,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":754,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時45分）謝謝主席，我們請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。今天很多委員都很關心新光人壽前董事長吳東進被約談的事情，我想請問一下，這件事情的前因應該是在2022年3月10日金管會有一個新聞稿，這個新聞稿指出，吳東進前董事長在被停止董事長職務期間指示召開會議，不動產相關會議由他擔任主席的有24次，沒有出席會議但指示怎麼做的有3次，按照吳東進指示提報董事會審議該公司與吳東進投資的事業進行交易者有4案。這是2022年3月10日金管會新聞稿中揭示的。我想請問一下，這個案子是不是跟2022年3月份金管會的檢查有關係？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。過去其實每家金控跟所有的金融機構都會接受例行性的檢查，我想我們應該是在110年的時候對這個進行檢查，當時檢查出一些意見，我們當然會循我們內部駐會檢察官的管道，認為有涉犯刑法疑慮的，會移送給檢調處理。委員剛才講的就是這樣一個過程。"],["李委員坤城：所以請問一下主委或局長，當時金管會在對新光人壽進行處分之後有沒有移請檢察官進行偵辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個案子我們應該是去年5月移送的。"],["李委員坤城：去年5月移送？這個案子你們是在2022年3月份處分，然後去年5月移送？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：那為什麼到今年6月才開始……"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們金管會是一個行政機關，檢調的步驟跟作為我們沒有辦法置喙。"],["李委員坤城：我知道，它是一個獨立機關，可是時機很剛好，現在不是它正要增資嗎？對不對？","我問一下局長好了，剛剛我看也有委員關心嘛！現在正式的報告已經送到金管會了嘛？"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["李委員坤城：你也看了報告，然後有一些相關的建議提供給他們，也請他們再提供資料，對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：對，我們還在討論。"],["李委員坤城：還在討論中嘛！那是往正向發展還是怎麼樣？"],["施局長瓊華：我們當然希望能夠正向發展，尤其是對它提出的方案能不能執行的細節進行一些溝通。"],["李委員坤城：所以這兩個案子，包含新光人壽和三商美邦都是朝正面發展就對了？"],["施局長瓊華：我們會儘量跟他們溝通，希望朝正面發展。"],["李委員坤城：好，那這個會不會影響到新光人壽增資？"],["施局長瓊華：這應該是兩件事情，增資的部分，他們財業務的計畫已經來了，就是有跟我們承諾他們要增資，我們正就這個來做討論，所以這個承諾是針對財業務改善計畫，跟現在大股東的問題是分開的。"],["李委員坤城：他們增資的期限是到哪個時候？"],["施局長瓊華：合理期限就是我們要跟他們討論他們那個時程到底能不能達成。"],["李委員坤城：他們提到的期限是哪個時候？"],["施局長瓊華：有可能在下半年。"],["李委員坤城：在下半年？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["李委員坤城：其實本席關心的是它的資本適足率問題，本來大家已經提心吊膽，現在又出現這件事情，會不會影響到他們增資？"],["施局長瓊華：我想這是兩件事情，但是我們會密切注意是不是有受到影響。"],["李委員坤城：你說它是兩件事，但它有可能是一件事情，如果投資人心理覺得前董事長已經被依背信罪約談，可能會影響到他們投資啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。我剛才說這兩件事情，是它所涉犯的法律層次是不一樣的，我剛才也有說明過，在法律上是獨立的，但是例如市場心理受到影響，這一點我們沒辦法預期，但是我們看待增資這件事情，就是按照程序進行。"],["李委員坤城：再請教主委，今天的討論主題是虛擬貨幣，請問從107年開始，這五年多來，本席看了資料，你們有修正洗錢防制法，把虛擬通貨納入洗錢防制的低度規範管理，110年6月也有制定虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資恐辦法，112年9月又公布虛擬資產平台及交易業務事業（VASP）指導原則，到113年，最近制定洗錢防制法第十五條之二第六項，帳戶帳號暫停限制功能或逕予關閉管理辦法。你們有VASP的指導原則，請問一下，這個公會是明天要成立嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，委員對法規的蒐集非常完整。第一個，沒有錯，按照我們收到的訊息，6月13日會籌組公會。"],["李委員坤城：好。大家剛才也有問過，這個公會裡面，目前完成聲明及登記的有25家，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員坤城：沒有登記的有幾家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去是陸陸續續向我們申請，因為有些是我們拒絕以後，他們可以改善後再來申請，目前我們還在審核中的應該有15、16家。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有期限？就是希望他們都來做這個登記。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分……"],["李委員坤城：因為現在大概是60、70家吧！是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去曾經來申請過的有60、70家，但是有些不符，我們已經回復意見，他們改善之後還會再來申請。現在還在等我們審查意見的，大概有16家、15家左右。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有期限？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要看他們準備的程度，因為我們洗防領聲明要做到的點，其實滿多的。"],["李委員坤城：所以成立公會的成員，基本上就是完成聲明的這25家就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。已經做完洗防聲明的，現在總共是24、25家。"],["李委員坤城：這25家裡面，有沒有一家叫做ACE王牌數位交易所？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，有。"],["李委員坤城：它的負責人之前才因為涉及詐騙洗錢……"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該是前負責人。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！他現在被抓進去了，是前負責人。請問一下，它也是公會的成員之一？"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前是。"],["李委員坤城：這樣有沒有問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這是一個自律組織啦！我們也……"],["李委員坤城：它要制定遊戲規則耶！這家機構的前負責人涉及詐騙，結果這家虛擬貨幣交易所要參與制定遊戲規則，這樣會不會有點怪怪的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然它只是其中之一，而且涉犯的負責人現在已經更換成另外一家公司，我想這個……"],["李委員坤城：但是換湯不換藥啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想公會應該會做出明智的抉擇啦！我們在……"],["李委員坤城：問題是你們的態度啊！要看你們的態度啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：站在主管機關的立場，我們一定希望市場健全發展，公會的籌組是非常重要的機制。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！所以我們才希望它能夠發揮功能，結果卻發現裡面的王牌數位交易所涉及詐騙，他們卻要參與訂定虛擬貨幣的遊戲規則，我們覺得很奇怪，而且它也沒有受到任何的行政處罰，都沒有！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。未來我們希望公會能夠自律，而且很多公會的自律規範也會有罰則。我剛才也說了，未來對這個部分的管理，不是只有這個公會，我們會用四道積木去堆疊，現在只是……"],["李委員坤城：對，但是我們現在制定專法，等到實施已經是明年的事情了，對不對？所以現在就是用公會的規範在處理，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們除了洗防法，還有剛才委員條列的幾個法規以外，接下來明天就會有一個公會成立。我們趕快督導它成立公會，等於是再疊加上來，假設洗錢防制法也通過了，會再疊加一層，等到專法出來後，就會再疊加，這樣就會比較完整。"],["李委員坤城：積木要疊的好，下面的基礎要穩啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們剛才就在質疑，如果下面的基礎不穩的話，上面怎麼堆上去？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們一定會好好的處理這件事情。"],["李委員坤城：所以本席才問你們對於涉及洗錢、詐騙的這家虛擬貨幣公司，還讓它繼續成為公會的一員，你們覺得無所謂就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是的。我想這個公會要有一個自我約束的機制，畢竟它是一個商業同業公會，我會請證期局密切督導。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為你們是主管單位。公會歸公會，當然公會有自律規範，但你們是主管單位啊……"],["彭主任委員金隆：它要經過我們備查。"],["李委員坤城：不能一點態度都沒有啊！到現在也沒有任何行政處分，都沒有！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為現在公會還沒有成立，但是我們……"],["李委員坤城：不是啦！本席的意思是說，像這種涉及詐騙的虛擬資產公司，當然它的前負責人被抓走了，但是這家公司沒有受到任何處罰。完全都沒有嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是另外一個層次，可能不在金管會的主管範圍。"],["李委員坤城：那是誰的主管範圍？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為金管會是針對洗錢防制的部分，還有……"],["李委員坤城：不是啦！這家公司涉及違法，沒有任何行政部門可以對它做任何處罰，這點本席覺得滿奇怪的。這不歸金管會管嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：看它是否屬於我們列管，就像剛才我們討論的，和某家金控的狀況是一樣的。"],["李委員坤城：本席現在是問主委，它歸不歸你們管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：該我們管的，我們就會管。"],["李委員坤城：現在是不歸你們管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：根據剛才說的洗防規定，我們是VASP的主政單位，沒錯。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以本席才會問，它沒有受到任何處罰？完全沒有？這也很奇怪吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我們來理解一下，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：不是理解啦！本席的意思是說，它是一家涉及詐騙的公司，現在在籌組公會，你們認為它的合法性沒有問題。本席再問，這家公司的負責人被抓走，是這個人的問題，但是這家公司沒有受到任何處罰，本席覺得滿奇怪的。都沒有嗎？"],["張局長振山：其實我們內部對這些比較異常的個人幣商都有控管案子，等我們內部審查完畢之後，也有可能會用行政處分來處分這些公司。"],["李委員坤城：早就要處理啦！聽主委這麼說，好像不歸你們管一樣。是歸你們管的啊！不然以後大家都亂搞就好啦！"],["張局長振山：剛才有說到，洗錢防制法還是有規範到啦！所以我們會依照洗錢防制法來規範它。"],["李委員坤城：是嘛！可以管的啊！怎麼會沒有辦法管呢？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝指正。"],["李委員坤城：這是態度的問題啊！你們要管就可以管啊！對不對？你們是金管會耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們該管的一定會承擔，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。接著請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":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我們請金管委彭主委有請彭主委"},{"start":14.725,"end":34.097,"text":"主委好今天我看也很多的委員都很關心這個新光榮獸的這個前董事長吳東進被約談的事情那我想請問一下這件事情這個前應該是在說在2022年3月10號我看金管會有一個新聞稿這個新聞稿就是認為說這個吳東進的前董事長"},{"start":38.379,"end":40.48,"text":"提報董事會審議,該公司與吳東進投資的事業進行交易者有4案"},{"start":58.666,"end":63.45,"text":"這是在2022年3月10日金管會的新聞稿這個我們市局長也在這邊那我想請問一下這個案子這個是不是跟我們2022年3月份金管會的這個"},{"start":76.117,"end":99.747,"text":"這個檢查有關係嗎?是的,我想在過去其實每家金控跟所有的金融機構都會接受例行性的檢查我想我們應該是在110年的時候對這個進行檢查這時候我們檢查出了一些的意見我們剛才會尋我們內部有駐會檢察官的管道認為說有涉犯刑法的疑慮的會移送給檢調處理委員剛才講的就是這樣一個過程"},{"start":103.729,"end":130.007,"text":"那所以請問一下主委或是局長當時候金管會有沒有針對這個進行對星光人獸處分之後有沒有依請檢察官進行偵辦這個案子應該是我們去年應該是去年5月移送去年5月移送那去年5月移送這案子是在2022年3月份你們有處分然後去年5月移送那為什麼到今年的6月才開始"},{"start":131.056,"end":151.448,"text":"跟委員報告,就是我們金管會是一個行政機關,減掉他們的步驟跟他們的作為,我們是沒有辦法去智慧,對,謝謝因為你們這個,它是一個獨立機關,可是時機很剛好,現在不是要來爭執嗎?對不對?然後呢,我問一下局長好了,這個剛才我看有委員有關心嘛"},{"start":152.088,"end":169.988,"text":"現在政治的報告已經送到金管會了嘛那你們也看了報告然後有一些相關的一些一些建議提供給他們也請他們再提供資料嘛對不對對就是我們還在討論還在討論中嘛那是往正向的發展呢還是怎麼樣"},{"start":171.307,"end":192.138,"text":"我們當然希望他能夠正向發展啦尤其是在他提出的方案能不能執行的細節進行一些溝通那所以這個兩案子那個包含新光能手跟33美邦都是朝正面發展就對了我們會盡量跟他們溝通希望朝正面發展好那這個會不會影響到他們的爭執啊"},{"start":195.515,"end":223.451,"text":"應該兩件事情增資的部分他財業務的計畫已經來了就是他有跟我們承諾他要增資那我們就這個來做討論啦所以這個承諾是針對財業務改善計畫跟現在大股東的問題他增資的期限是到哪時候啊合理期限就是我們要跟他討論他那個時程到底能不能能達成這樣子那他是提到的期限是哪時候"},{"start":225.23,"end":245.905,"text":"有可能在下半年其實我關心的是這個資本市主義的問題本來大家已經提心吊膽了現在又出現這件事情會不會影響到他們的政治我想這兩個事情是兩件事但是我們會密切注意是不是有受到影響你說它是兩件事但是它有可能是一件事情"},{"start":247.368,"end":270.902,"text":"這個投資人的心裡覺得說這個前董事長已經被依背信罪被這個約談了那可能會影響到他們投資啊對我剛才講說這兩件事情是他所涉犯的法律層次是不一樣我剛才也有說明過在法律上獨立的但是呢比如說市場上心裡面受到影響這種沒辦法預期但是我們看這件事真知我們就按照程序來進行"},{"start":273.023,"end":299.749,"text":"請教主委今天的討論主題是虛擬貨幣請問一下這5年多來從107年我看資料你們有把修正的洗錢防制法把虛擬通貨納入洗錢防制的低度規範的管理然後在110年6月也有制定虛擬通貨平台及交易業務事業防制洗錢及打擊資孔的辦法然後112年9月又公布了"},{"start":301.59,"end":308.599,"text":"虛擬資產平台交易業務事業（VASP（的指導原則然後到113年最近有《洗錢防制法》"},{"start":309.828,"end":333.124,"text":"第15條之二第6項帳號暫停限制功能或禁與關閉的管理辦法然後呢你們也這個有一個VASP的指導原則那請問一下這個工會是明天要成立嗎是的那委員剛剛對那個法規收集非常的完整就是說第一個沒有錯就按照我們的收到的訊息工會是在6月13號會會來籌組工會好那這個"},{"start":339.073,"end":351.232,"text":"我看大家剛剛有問過這公會裡面這個先講目前完成這個聲明的登記的有25家嘛 對不對是的然後呢那沒有登記的有幾家"},{"start":352.271,"end":368.892,"text":"現在過去陸陸續續跟我們申請因為它其實上有些是我們把它拒絕以後它當然可以改善再來我們現在大概是目前我們還在審核中應該十幾家應該四五六家有沒有一個期限就是說我們希望說他們做來做這一個登記"},{"start":371.135,"end":392.47,"text":"現在大概六七十家吧過去曾經來申請過六七十家但是有些不服我們今天回復意見他改善就會還會再過來現在還在等的等我們審查意見大概有16家15家左右那有沒有一個期限這個要看他們準備的程度因為其實我們的洗房林聲明他要做到的點其實蠻多的那所以說這個成立工會"},{"start":393.07,"end":407.66,"text":"基本上就是有這個聲明的這25家就對了是的 就是我們已經做完洗房聲明的總共現在大概是24、5家那這25家裡面有一家叫做這個S王牌數位交易所 有沒有有"},{"start":408.24,"end":426.262,"text":"那他的負責人齁那之前齁才因為這個涉及詐騙洗錢齁對應該是前負責人對啦因為他現在被抓進去了嘛是前負責人嘛那我問一下那所以他也是工會成員之一先生目前是那這樣有沒有問題啊呃當然這是個自律組織啦那我們我們還要自立遊戲規則欸"},{"start":427.763,"end":453.201,"text":"那結果他的前負責人這家機構他的前負責人涉及詐騙那結果這一家的交易所虛擬貨幣交易所要來制定這個遊戲規則這樣會不會有點怪怪的當然他只是其中之一而且那個前涉犯的負責人已經現在更換成另外一家公司我想不是啊那這個換湯不換藥啊這個的話我想工會他們應該會做出明智的抉擇啦我們在那你的態度啊要是看你的態度啊"},{"start":453.641,"end":474.526,"text":"站在主管機關我們一定希望這個市場健全發展工會的籌組是非常重要的機制是啊所以我們才希望說它能夠發揮功能那結果這個發現說裡面這個王牌數位這個交易所這個涉及詐騙那結果它要訂立這個虛擬貨幣的這個遊戲規則我們是覺得很奇怪啊然後它也沒有任何的沒有任何的行政處罰都沒有"},{"start":475.426,"end":490.264,"text":"未來我們希望他工會因為很多的工會自律規範他們也會有罰則只是我剛才講說未來對這個管理不是只有這個工會因為我剛才講我們會用四道積木的去堆疊我們三法是到明年的事情了啊"},{"start":490.905,"end":507.213,"text":"所以現在就是用工會的規範在做處理現在我們除了《洗錢防制法》剛才委員所條列的那幾個法規以外接下來明天就會有一個工會成立我們就趕快督導他成立工會就等於說再疊加上來假設我們《洗錢防制法》也通過的話"},{"start":508.514,"end":522.566,"text":"會再疊加一層當我們專法出來就會疊加一層這個基木要疊得好你下面基礎要穩所以我們剛就在質疑說你這個下面基礎不穩的話你上面怎麼堆上去啊我們一定是會好好的來處理所以我才問說你這個你對於這個有涉及這個洗錢的詐騙的這個虛擬貨幣的公司你還讓他繼續成為工會的議員你也覺得無所謂就對了"},{"start":529.212,"end":556.21,"text":"不是,我想這個工會任何應該他們要有一個自我約束的機制畢竟它是一個商業同業工會那我會請我們的那個政績局密切的督導對啊,你們是主管單位啊工會是歸工會當然工會有自律的規範但是你們是主管單位啊不能說這個一點態度都沒有啊到現在也沒有任何的行政處分,都沒有現在的部分我們現在因為工會還沒成立,但是呢不是啊,我的意思是說像這種有涉及到詐騙的這個虛擬資產的公司"},{"start":560.153,"end":586.394,"text":"當然他前副職人被抓走了但是這家公司沒有任何的處罰?完全都沒有嗎?這是我想說另外一個層次可能不在我們金管會的主管範圍那是誰的主管範圍?如果說涉犯違法的話應該是因為金管會是對這個洗錢防制的部分還就是做一個不是啊,那所以說這家公司他有涉及違法了然後沒有任何的一個行政部門可以對他做任何的處罰"},{"start":588.483,"end":611.976,"text":"這規矩蠻奇怪的,這不規矩管會管嗎?我們就看他所列管,就跟剛剛我們討論剛才比如說某家的經貨概念是一樣現在不規你管?現在我們根據剛才那個洗房的規定,我們對這個VASP是一個主政單位對啊,所以我在問說他沒有任何的處罰?完全沒有?"},{"start":613.036,"end":635.383,"text":"這很奇怪吧這我們來理解一下這我們會來理解啦不是不是理解啦我的意思是說他這是一個詐騙的公司然後他籌組工會那你也認為說他的合法性沒有問題那我再問說那你這家公司負責人是被抓走是他這個人的問題啊但是這家公司沒有任何的處罰我也覺得蠻奇怪的啊都沒有嗎"},{"start":640.76,"end":658.736,"text":"因為我們內部其實有對這些個人弊傷比較異常的那其實我們有控管案子那等我們內部審查完畢之後也有可能他我們會用到我們的行政處分來處分這些共識早就要處理了啊我先聽主委講說這個好像不歸你管一樣是歸你管的啊"},{"start":659.622,"end":659.862,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"153859","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153859","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8191b874656146075cc0fec08313b105ec0dd6f040307a1001a39797466756a34355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:40:42 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11:52:16","影片長度":"00:11:34","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:40:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:52:16+08:00","duration":694,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時40分）主席、各位委員，大家好。今天討論AI的主題，臺北6月份的天空都是AI在飄，我要特別稱讚召委，這個主題選得好，用詞非常精準，「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」，這是臺灣兩個未來最重要的經濟成長動力。今天我要特別稱讚召委，真的寫得好。最重要的是，你厲害在哪裡？你把所有單位找過來，不管經濟部、國發會、數位部、教育部、國科會，AI產業發展真的要這幾個單位通力合作，同心協力才有辦法打造未來的AI產業。","今天我第一個要詢問的是誰？是台電的王總經理，你不曉得，我把你請上來。"],["主席：我們請台電王總經理。"],["陳委員超明：王總經理。"],["王總經理耀庭：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：你好。大家都很擔心缺電，我曉得你壓力很大，我認識你那麼久，我相信這幾年裡面，電力公司一定要有充足的電力，有沒有信心？"],["王總經理耀庭：有信心。"],["陳委員超明：包括AI的應用發展嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：有，這部分都在盤點。"],["陳委員超明：可能用電量很大，要規劃好。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["陳委員超明：你不要讓郭部長下臺，要小心，要努力加油，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：電一定足夠。"],["陳委員超明：好，你可以回座。第一個我要請教郭部長。"],["主席：我們再請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。我請教一個跟這個比較沒有關係的問題，但是跟生成式AI未來的發展有關係。今天所有報紙都在講聯發科，軟體都未能享受臺版晶片法案的優惠，尤其聯發科可以代表臺灣的IC設計，裡面說政府只重硬的，不重軟的，聯發科出來代表未來很多生成式的應用跟這個有關係。關於聯發科及臺灣晶片法案的問題，我相信要幫它解決，因為它是臺灣人之光，在晶片領域裡面能跟美國的幾個晶片設計公司對抗，它的成就實在不得了，你要多協助。你的看法如何？"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我們會幫忙。"],["陳委員超明：真的要加強，因為未來AI的軟體是非常重要的。你說AI這個產業臺灣可以吃50年，我們AI產業裡面軟體的排名要變成世界第二，你有沒有信心？"],["郭部長智輝：軟體的排名世界第二，現在在半導體來講……"],["陳委員超明：這是你的工作報告寫的，不是我講的，你不要忘了，你可能忘了。"],["郭部長智輝：工作報告裡面講的是IC設計世界第二。"],["陳委員超明：不是IC設計，IC設計是美國人掌握，我們不可能變成第二。報告是講AI產業生成應用裡面的軟體，你們的報告我都努力讀，你們講過的都忘了，要檢討一下，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["陳委員超明：這個可以看你的報告。我相信你講的沒有錯，AI有兩個，一個是半導體，一個是生成式AI，就是運算力非常重要，生成式AI完成以後，它的應用那一端也很複雜，不是我們想像的那麼簡單，它還要各種參數，好不好？你加強努力。","現在我要請國發會劉主委，沒有問到的可以回去，我問的話是比較輕鬆。"],["主席：請劉主委。郭部長回座。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：主委好。我請教你，在我們行政院長的施政報告裡面，他說要來創新創業，編多少錢你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：知道，有1,500億。"],["陳委員超明：有多少錢？你告訴我。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們4年後要達到每年1,500億。"],["陳委員超明：啊？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：4年後要達到每年1,500億的創新創業投資。"],["陳委員超明：4年要達到1,500億。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，每一年。"],["陳委員超明：好，有認真。因為我特別看了這一段，你的創新創業，你說要創新創業雨林生態，你每一年要編1,500億，連續5年還是4年？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是到第4年後每一年有1,500億，這1,500億……"],["陳委員超明：是到第4年，還是從現在開始？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：從現在開始第4年，逐年會增加，但是……"],["陳委員超明：是每一年1,500億，還是4年1,500億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：到了第4年的時候，每一年1,500億。"],["陳委員超明：你講得很模糊，我也聽不懂，是1年1,500億，還是4年加起來……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在1年差不多700億，我們會逐年增加，就是明年多一點，後年多一點，到第4年1年……"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦！你講的跟院長不同，你打院長的臉，你看他的施政報告，每年1,500億，5年之內創造2萬個就業機會，再讀一下好嗎？院長說的話要記住，這樣才能繼續為我們臺灣來做出貢獻，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有啦！"],["陳委員超明：這一點很重要。接著請教數位部，主委請回座，數位部是誰？"],["主席：來，請。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：數位部，我現在問的可能跟國發會跟經濟部有關係。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員超明：剛剛你們講，如果要開發一個生成式的AI，剛剛我是聽到哪一個部說大概要200億臺幣。"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，如果要做大型語言模型，要開發一個生成式AI的大型語言模型的話，1,000億臺幣大概都不夠。"],["陳委員超明：你是數位部的次長，你講話就實在，所以說那個要幾百億臺幣會被人家笑死！AI主權，臺灣既然要做AI生態關鍵的地區，你曉得一個生成式AI要做到像美國的輝達、微軟、Google、臉書、OpenAI的話，最起碼多少起跳？50億美金起跳，那還是普通的，如果要做好大概要100億美金，所以我現在要告訴國發會主委及經濟部長，這個是基本的，所以要投資很大，你要作為一個關鍵核心，要帶動臺灣的經濟成長，不要那麼小氣，你去看他們，我得到的資訊是最少要50億美金，做得好要百億美金。","臺灣起碼要把錢花下去，作為一個訓練中心，我們要有國際的水準，不然你會被那幾個大公司控制到死，臺灣永遠掌握在人家的手中，也不能達成像我們經濟部長所說，不是IC軟體，你的報告裡面是講關於AI未來的軟體裡面，我們要淨輸出，我們不好意思搶美國，但是你說排名第二，我覺得你這個策略也是對的，所以各位官員，你們這幾個部，最起碼50億美金起跳，做得好要100億美金，我是告訴大家，不是我們想像得那麼容易，好不好？請回座。"],["林次長宜敬：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：今天討論到很多的AI，AI人才非常重要，我相信部長你在產業界都了解，劉主委你也都了解，美國大公司的薪水非常地高啊！我們臺灣搶不贏，我們是為人作嫁耶！說起來，臺灣人是打工耶！我們這些人才，一家大公司來，當然它的研發中心設在臺灣，我們都非常歡迎，但是人才一定要交流，人才培養非常重要。","像以前的Qualcomm，本來要賠償7億美金，後來當作是投資，它把薪水拉得高，去拉台積電，我講了一次，台積電去拉聯發科，聯發科就開始拉所有IC設計軟體產業，一定造成這樣，不要向臺灣炫耀說你很棒，跟世界每一個國家要合作，你被掏空都不曉得啊！所以臺灣的人才自己培養自己用，不要楚材晉用，你們不要有這種想法，這是個競爭的世界，我們好不容易訓練這麼多人才出來，怎麼可以隨隨便便流出去？我希望你們特別注意。","再來，要引用外來的人才，占我們所得稅大概都超過500萬以上，現在你看NVIDIA在招人，起碼都幾百萬臺幣以上，500萬的很多，你扣稅40%，所以這個地方特別注意一下，人才如何跟國際交流，多加強一下，因為這個都是要運算力的人才，非常非常地重要，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員貼心的提醒。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。我們中午不休息，一直到今天會議結束。請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.63596875,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.85909375,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.22971875,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.79471875,"end":28.364093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.566593750000003,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.794093750000002,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.759718750000005,"end":36.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.24034375,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.362218750000004,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.40409375,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.71596875,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.04409375,"end":51.111593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.16221875,"end":52.562843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.220968750000004,"end":55.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.24159375,"end":57.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.11471875,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.66721875,"end":63.632843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.47659375,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.24409375,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.11284375000001,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.95221875,"end":81.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.65096875,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.54034375,"end":89.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.67096875,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.62846875000001,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.42971875,"end":97.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.45034375,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.92221875000001,"end":104.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.09909375000001,"end":105.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.73909375000001,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.32534375,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.94971875,"end":115.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.77659375,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.90284375,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.18096875,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.52659375,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.61909375,"end":125.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.00284375000001,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.55034375,"end":144.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.97221875,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.96784375000001,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.52721875,"end":148.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.93596875,"end":150.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.93909375,"end":157.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.26784375,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.42346875,"end":164.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.45659375000002,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.74721875,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.75096875,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.15971875000002,"end":176.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.64034375,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.72409375,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.25971875000002,"end":186.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.00596875000002,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.78971875000002,"end":194.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.56596875000002,"end":195.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.05096875,"end":197.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.04221875000002,"end":199.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.69596875000002,"end":200.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.64096875,"end":201.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.09221875,"end":203.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.89784375000002,"end":214.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.64721875,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.43596875,"end":217.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.44409375,"end":220.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.71784375000001,"end":225.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.58221875,"end":225.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start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你可以請回座那第一個我要來請教我們郭部長我們再請經濟部郭部長"},{"start":155.97,"end":170.778,"text":"委員好部長好我請教一個這個比較沒有關心但是跟AI生存是未來發展有關心今天所有報紙都在講蓮花坑我們台版的充電法案"},{"start":171.798,"end":192.338,"text":"那軟體的話都為您享受到經騙法的一個優惠尤其聯發科是會代表台灣的IC設計那裡面說我們的政府只種硬的不種軟的那聯發科出來這個代表未來你很多生存式的應用裡面跟這個有關係喔"},{"start":193.914,"end":220.422,"text":"所以關於聯發科聯發科我們台新晶片的法案我相信要幫他解決他是台灣人之光在晶片領域裡面能跟美國幾個晶片的設計對抗的話他的成就實在不得了你要多協助你的看法如何這部分我們會來幫忙真的要加強因為你未來"},{"start":222.255,"end":247.353,"text":"這個AI的軟體是非常重要重要的你就又在講你說AI這個產業我們可以在台灣吃五十年所以我們的AI的產業裡面軟體你要排名變成世界第二你有沒有信心軟體排名世界第二我想我們現在在半導體來講的話"},{"start":250.727,"end":273.868,"text":"這是你工作報告寫的不是我講的你不要忘了你可能忘了報告委員那個是工作報告裡面講的是IC設計世界第二不是IC設計IC設計美國人掌握在我們不可能說變成第二你那時的報告是講AI產業的那個生成那個應用的AI裡面的軟體"},{"start":276.248,"end":300.621,"text":"您的籤我都拋錶頭,您講過都忘記了,要檢討一下好不好?好,這個你可以看你的報告那個我相信你講的沒有錯AI有兩個,一個半導體一個生成式的AI,就是運算力非常的重要那因為生成AI完成了以後它的應用那一端也是很複雜,不是我們想像那麼簡單它還有各種參數來的"},{"start":304.141,"end":328.101,"text":"好不好你加強努力那現在我要請我們國外委我們的劉梓瑋還沒有問到的可以請回座我們請劉梓瑋我們問的話比較輕鬆副部長回座委員好梓瑋我給你請教一下我們行政院長的一個施政報告裡面"},{"start":329.246,"end":334.015,"text":"你知道他說要來創新創業變化多少錢你知道嗎?1500億我們四年後要達到每年1500億四年後要達到每年1500億"},{"start":342.199,"end":356.554,"text":"的創新創業投資4年要達到1500億每一年對好好有認真因為我特別看了這一段你的創新創業你說要創新創業以零生態你每一年要編1500億連續5年還是4年"},{"start":365.894,"end":384.075,"text":"是到第四年後每一年有一千五百億是到第四年還是從現在開始從現在開始第四年那逐年會增加是每一年一千五百億還是四年一千五百億到了第四年的時候每一年一千五百億阿你講得很模糊阿也聽不懂"},{"start":385.136,"end":401.445,"text":"是一年1500億,還是1500億?現在一年差不多700億,我們現在逐年增加,就每年多多少年多多少年?你跟議長說的不一樣,你看他的施政報告,每年1500億,5年之內創造2萬個就業的機會"},{"start":407.298,"end":425.322,"text":"好嗎?再談一下,把議題給我記住,繼續為我們台灣來做出貢獻好不好?這一點很重要,要不要跟您請教,那個,世衛部,請回座,世衛部是誰?好,來,請"},{"start":436.857,"end":449.415,"text":"我現在可能跟你們國外會跟經濟部有關係剛剛你們講如果要開挖一個生成式的AI剛剛我是聽到哪一個部大概講說200億台幣"},{"start":453.282,"end":481.454,"text":"報告委員,如果要做那個大型語言模型的話要開發一個生成式AI大型語言模型的話一千億台幣大概都不夠你是衛部的處長,你講的就實在所以你講的那幾百億代表那個人,那個人就是AI主權台灣既然是要做成AI生態關鍵的一個地區你曉得,一個生成式的AI"},{"start":483.322,"end":510.209,"text":"要做到像美國的輝達、微軟、Google、臉書的話還有OpenAI你曉得最起碼多少起跳50億美金起跳那還是普通的如果要做好了好大概100億美金所以我現在跟國安會主委、經濟部長這個是基本的所以要投資很大你要當為一個關鍵核心要帶動台灣的經濟成長"},{"start":513.035,"end":539.708,"text":"不要那麼小氣你去看他們我得到資訊最少50億美金做得好百億美金台灣要把這個起碼錢要花下去當為你一個訓練的中心我們有國際的水準不然你會被那幾個大公司控制死掉台灣永遠掌握在人家的手中也不能達成像我們經濟部長不是IC軟體"},{"start":541.507,"end":568.055,"text":"你的報告裡面是講關於AI未來的軟體裡面我們要進出我們不好意思搶美國但是你說排名第二我覺得你這個策略也是對的所以各位官員你們這幾個部最起碼50億起跳做得好要100億美金我是告訴大家不是我們想像的那麼容易好不好"},{"start":570.914,"end":586.839,"text":"請回座今天討論到很多的AIAI的人才非常的重要現在你們真的我相信部長你在產業界都了解"},{"start":588.244,"end":611.26,"text":"那個劉子瑞你也都了解那美國大公司來那個薪水非常的高啊!咱台灣出名啊!咱是為人做家咧!講到台灣人是打工的咧!咱現在知道這大公司來當然它的研發信息設在台灣我們都非常歡迎但是人才一定要教育"},{"start":612.666,"end":639.685,"text":"這個人才培養非常的重要像以前的QICOM我們7億美金本來要賠償的單位投資來他把薪水拉的高其他臺積電我講了一次臺積電去年華科了年華科了就開始拉所有那些IC設計軟體產業一定造成這樣不要把台灣電工力很高跟世界每一個國家要合作"},{"start":640.586,"end":663.127,"text":"你被掏空都不曉得啊所謂台灣的人才自己培養、自己用不要讓主材什麼用啊經用還是經用主材你們不要有這種想法這個是降生的世界啊我們好不容易訓練這麼多的人才出來怎麼隨隨便便可以流出去啊我希望你們特別注意"},{"start":664.639,"end":690.841,"text":"再來要運用外來的人才暫時我們所得稅那大概都超過五百萬以上的現在你看Amber在招人都起碼幾百萬台幣以上了五百萬的很多阿你扣稅40%所以這個地方特別注意一下人才如何跟國際交流都加強一下因為這個都是要硬算力的人才非常非常的重要謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819c2e908c430b387c459a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001a090407a59ae08d9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:41:31 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這個問題剛剛也有其他的委員在提問那基本上來講我想對於委員們有這方面的討論我們都尊重那但是在數據上我剛剛也有做一些說明就國安單位來講我們在看所謂的共諜案的偵辦我們必須要有法律的依據針對我們的國安法或相關的反滲透法來看他的行為有沒有違反相關的法律要件"},{"start":230.458,"end":249.151,"text":"假如有證據的話,我們才能夠移送到檢查機關或調查機關來進行偵犯。好,了解。那請問一下,你們通常來講啟動的調查的標準是什麼?如果說是違反反滲透法或是你們講的違反國安法,是這些上面這些人士他們可能在大陸有定居,有親友在大陸定居經商或是常常去大陸參訪,接受大陸的招待?"},{"start":251.653,"end":269.374,"text":"沒有 這個部分就是對於兩岸比較正常和合法的一個交往活動我們都尊重也不會有任何的意見就國安單位來講我們比較注意的是有沒有違反相關的法規舉例來講 依照國安法跟反滲透法主要的有包括發展組織主要的有可能包括有借選的活動"},{"start":273.538,"end":286.849,"text":"簡單來說還是可以請局長幫我們澄清一下就你們現在目前國安局所調查的案件當中基本上沒有什麼是有涉及到大學教授的案子立委的案子有嗎?"},{"start":288.25,"end":297.055,"text":"從去年到現在偵辦有81件的案子其中被起訴的有39案那主要涉及到的還是簽密那現在主要的涉及到的這幾個案子主要的還是在於簽密特別是涉及到對於軍中資訊的簽密第二個就是借選"},{"start":309.263,"end":333.585,"text":"有關於金選案子看起來好像就是很多的起訴案子後來也都一種是不起訴另外一種有31件起訴去年到現在31件起訴但是通常來講就是到最後就被判決確定有罪的這個比例是非常之低接下來我想請問一下有關於那個前立委趙天寧的案子你們現在的情況怎麼樣你們在這個新聞媒體爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資"},{"start":334.717,"end":353.423,"text":"因為這個案子爆發之後檢方已經介入偵辦那在介入偵辦之後我們行政單位就不太適合再進行相關的調查但假如檢方有需要國安單位來提供資訊的話我意思是講說在這個案子新聞爆發之前你們是不是就已經有相關情資對於這個立委有大陸女友的這件事情"},{"start":354.424,"end":359.028,"text":"這個案子我們並沒有在事前有瞭解到這位委員有這樣的交往的狀況對,但我們對於委員的個人交友狀況我們一般不會特別去針對哪個委員的個人交友狀況來進行政治偵訪"},{"start":371.281,"end":388.175,"text":"交友對象是很特殊的啊所以我必須說我覺得國安局在這方面的情資掌握還是有些問題然後最後我想要再問局長的就是因為最近有消息傳出說可能會有政黨團體會針對立法院即將進行的復議案的表決的這個事情那會發動抗議群眾衝進立法院癱瘓議事程序請問局長有獲知這個訊息嗎"},{"start":398.982,"end":422.98,"text":"假如有任何的那個陳抗情資的話我們都會進行通報所以你們現在都還沒有接獲任何的都還沒開始了解相關的情資嗎?因為我們一般人我們現在都知道了有在注意但是我們要注意的是他是不是有啟動他的一個相關的動員的機制那假如有的話我們就會進行通報這包括警政署還有相關調查單位都會通報到國安局這邊來"},{"start":423.82,"end":448.285,"text":"因為以本席看最近國安局還有這些年來國安局所收集的相關情資似乎好像都追不上整個事情發展的這個害處所以我希望你們能夠好好的掌握這個相關事情的發展畢竟立法院是國家最高的民意機構我們的尊嚴和安全必須要"},{"start":449.085,"end":451.787,"text":"但是起訴之後判決確定的比例非常低：在代表有濫訴的可能性"},{"start":479.537,"end":482.436,"text":"我們接下來請洪孟楷委員上台"}]}},{"id":"153857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8191fd2b8b0d9b019ecb494c37549b30dc5dd6f040307a1001a177d7761fde0a4875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"11:41:35 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下來副議案也要進入委員會還有總執行但是呢大家都有一個構思比較重要的法案一定要在7月16日以前把它完成比如說打詐、釋法等等那很多包括本委會已經前兩天通過了海洋保育法那也是等著要排嘛都是那些委員會的法案嘛打詐、釋法也要跟委員會有關係嘛"},{"start":421.452,"end":428.867,"text":"就是炸雞危害防治法所以我到這裡肯定要拜託大家"},{"start":430.58,"end":456.509,"text":"這個時刻在這個時刻不是草野追憶的時候這個時刻是展開立法院是可以有一個可以溝通管道大家可以坐下來談我非常珍惜我和黃國昌委員在法案前同事過了四年沒有跟他私下講話到今天第一頁接觸那我希望黃國昌委員你能成就到他這個因緣以上報告"},{"start":457.331,"end":469.916,"text":"非常謝謝柯總召剛剛的發言但是我也要講我雖然是召委但是我也要尊重一下要尊重一下在場內政委員會委員的這個決議好不好好謝謝我們現在請黃國昌總召來回應謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153854","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819dd1bc64f65b62d98182e407f268492bcdd6f040307a1001addd93173464eae515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:38:49 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委員會的時候，就曾針對新光人壽還有新光金控的問題提出多次質詢。當然，昨天吳東進被收押並以高達1億元交保。對於新光金控這個集團，本席在上一屆從2021年開始有5次質詢和2次臉書發文。有關他們的公司治理，當時我就收到非常多的檢舉，包括對於當時的金管會主委或者是保險局，我不只一次對他們的內稽內控提出要求，他們甚至曾經發生相關高階人員該處以罰鍰的都沒有好好地來進行，果然！主委啊！真的是出事了！對於新光人壽吳東進現在以1億元交保，1億元這個金額非常高喔！是吧？如果以一般案件來講。","我認為過去金管會面對立法委員質詢時的要求，如果你們只是約談、交報告、裁罰、減薪，包括他們整體的公司治理，比如說：金管會為什麼會退他們的報告？他們的KYC，包括新光銀行對於im.B事件等等，包括我曾經質詢過新光金控是國內14家業者當中唯一由贏轉虧等等，現在我要面臨的問題是，新壽正在進行125億元的增資，金管會現在怎麼來看？這個增資案會不會受到影響？如果受到影響的話，後續該怎麼處理？金管會面對這樣的案件，我知道有些委員會說這是不是一個政治案件，但是我先把大前提說在前面，如果任何一個非法都扣上政治辦案，那我說了：法院可以收起來了！檢察官也不用辦案了！調查局也不用查案了！因為就會成為所有犯罪者脫逃的標籤。","我現在在乎的是整體的金融穩定，目前新壽125億的增資還在進行當中，過去它的RBC一直都不足，到200%，所以現在你怎麼來看？整體的金融市場會不會受到影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。我想，維持金融市場的穩定以及市場的公平，金管會責無旁貸，剛剛委員提到過去質詢對金管會的指正，我想我們都會銘記在心，而且我們也都持續依法在辦理。剛剛委員也提到難道我們沒有其他工具了嗎？其實我們是一個行政主管機關，我們依保險法裡面擁有的職權，該怎麼做，我們就怎麼做。至於大股東個人的行為，我剛剛已經表達過了，這是大股東個人的行為，我們關注的是整個金控公司以及它所屬金融機構的穩定性。剛剛委員的指正我們都會持續來檢討，至於剛剛您提到增資案是否受到影響，我想，新壽過去沒有符合RBC的規定，我們依保險法的規定，要求他們在5月24日提出相關的計畫，我們正在審議中，剛剛也報告過，我們在6月底以前會針對它的增資計畫進行所謂的回復意見，這一部分我們剛才講過，這是大股東行為，跟這個是兩回事，針對增資計畫，我們還是按照程序進行。"],["林委員楚茵：好，主委，我要提醒的就是，在我過去的質詢當中，這個大股東不只一次插手非他職務之內的事件，現在被爆出資金挪用的弊案之後，第一個，投資人還要相信、給予增資的機會嗎？第二個是我們知道，現在出事的是新壽，但是在新光金控底下還有新光銀行，還有元富證券，還有新光投信、新光金保代和新光金創投，那這個大股東就像您所說的，他擁有實質股權的時候，他的手只插入新光金嗎？金管會有沒有再針對其他包括銀行、證券、投信、創投或者是保代來進行瞭解？因為當時我已經不只一次詢問：這個大股東是不是握有大股的權力，所以變成底下的人即使不願意，還是沒有辦法，因為大股東交代？這就是公司治理上一個很大的破口啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，這也是為什麼我在剛上任的業務報告裡面說，對於市場管理、對於大股東、對於所謂的權責不相當要進行管理，我們未來會對這個部分提案修法。剛剛提到我們對旗下各子公司的關注，我們整個會當然完全都有去做一些掌控，至於剛才大家擔心風險感染的問題，金控法第五十三條、第五十五條、第三十六條都有明確的規定，我們都依法在執行中。"],["林委員楚茵：主席，我知道時間到了，我趕快做結論。","本席提醒，第一，新光金控底下除了新壽之外，還有銀行、還有證券、還有投信，大股東如果今天可以對人壽伸手的時候，對其他的有沒有伸手？請金管會瞭解，瞭解之後提供報告。再來就是，我提醒，國華人壽當時政府是挹注了八百八十幾億，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：883億。"],["林委員楚茵：但是它的資產只有3,000億喔！今天新壽的規模比這個還要高上好幾倍，我們要做好準備，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，沒問題。剛剛委員的指正還有要求的資料，我們會再跟委員報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢。","接著請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","接著我們請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ 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這個是不是一個政治案件但是我先把大前提說在前面如果任何一個非法都扣上政治辦案那我說了"},{"start":133.973,"end":160.324,"text":"法院可以收起來了檢察官也不用辦案了調查局也不用查案了因為就會成為所有犯罪者的一個脫逃的一個標籤我現在在乎的是一個整體的金融穩定目前新售125億的增資還在增資當中過去它的RBC一直都是不足到200%所以現在你怎麼來看整體的金融市場會不會受到影響"},{"start":161.266,"end":187.864,"text":"是 謝謝委員我想維持金融市場的穩定以及市場的公平這是金管會責無旁貸剛剛委員講說對於過去的質詢對於金管會的指證我想我們都會銘記在心而且我們也都持續的依法在辦理剛剛委員提到說難道我們沒有其他的工具了嗎其實我們是一個行政主管機關我們依保險法裡面擁有的職權我們會"},{"start":190.325,"end":210.272,"text":"該怎麼做我們就怎麼做至於說大股東個人的行為我剛剛已經表達過了這是大股東個人的行為我們關注的是整個金控公司以及他所屬的金融機構的穩定性這個剛剛委員的指正我們都會持續來講至於說剛剛您提到曾之漢是否受到影響"},{"start":211.212,"end":225.909,"text":"我想新售它過去沒有符合RBC的規定我們依保險法的規定要求他們在5月24號已經提出了相關的這個計畫我們剛在審議中剛剛也報告說我們在6月底前會針對它的增資計畫進行這個所謂的回復意見這部分的"},{"start":231.736,"end":249.309,"text":"我們剛才講過這次大股東行為跟這是兩回事我們增資計畫我們還是按照程序進行好主委我要提醒的就是說這個大股東他過去在我的質詢當中那是不止一次就是他會插手他非職務之內的事件"},{"start":250.149,"end":274.838,"text":"那麼現在被爆出弊案之後有資金的挪用之後第一個投資人還要相信給予增資的機會嗎第二個是我們知道現在出事的是新手但是在星光金控底下還有星光銀行還有元富證券還有星光投信還有星光金保貸還有星光金的創投那這個大股東"},{"start":276.599,"end":295.352,"text":"就像您所說的他擁有實質的股權的時候他的手只插入星光金嗎金管會有沒有再針對其他包括銀行、證券、投信、創投或者是保貸來進行了解因為當時我已經不止一次的在詢問說這個大股東他是不是握有這個"},{"start":296.613,"end":311.489,"text":"大股的權利但是變成是底下的人即使不願意但是沒有辦法到股東交代這就是公司自己上一個很大的破口啊是的這也是為什麼我在上任業務報告裡面對於市場管理對於大股東"},{"start":312.951,"end":337.311,"text":"這個對於所謂的他不具有權責相當的這個要進行管理這個我們也把這個未來會提法來修改剛剛提到就是說我們對旗下各子公司的關注我們整個會當然是完全都有去做一些掌控那至於剛才大家擔心風險感染的問題金控法53條、55條、36條都有明確的規定我想我們都依法在執行中好"},{"start":338.132,"end":364.984,"text":"本席提醒主席我知道時間到了我趕快的做結論本席提醒第一新光監控底下除了新售之外還有銀行還有證券還有投信大股東的作為如果今天他人壽可以伸手的時候其他有沒有伸手請金管會了解了解之後提問報告再來就是我提醒國華人壽當時政府是挹注了八千八百八十億八百八十幾億對不對但是他的資產只有"},{"start":367.167,"end":371.133,"text":"新售的規模比這個還要高上好幾倍的時候我們要做好準備"}]}},{"id":"153853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153853","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8190f08364b581ed6c159a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001a6a0518872308de285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:33:25 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11:41:17","影片長度":"00:07:52","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:33:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:41:17+08:00","duration":472,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時33分）謝謝主席，我們請國安局蔡局長，還有海巡署謝副署長。"],["主席：請蔡局長，還有謝副署長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：局長好。剛剛我聽到針對中國快艇長驅直入淡水河口這件事情，昨天國安會有開過會議，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：有開。"],["李委員坤城：有開。那有沒有什麼會議的結論可以公開跟大家講？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為那個會議是有列密等，所以我不方便轉述會議的內容。但是會議的討論重點有針對怎麼樣來釐清相關的案情，以及後續我們在海防或邊境的安全上有沒有要精進的作為，都有做相關的討論。"],["李委員坤城：就公開的部分，因為現在大家都在關心，一艘快艇可以從中國福州的寧德港就這樣長驅直入進來我們淡水河口，這是何等大事！所以我才問國安單位有沒有做這件事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["李委員坤城：已經發生兩、三天了，有沒有什麼樣的一個公開說明，可以讓全民來放心的？"],["蔡局長明彥：在相關精進作為的部分，有特別提到未來的通報機制的精進，另外，對於一些海空狀況的監偵設備，可能可以再有更進一步的提升。"],["李委員坤城：我講幾個時序表，海巡署也在這邊，6月8號這位阮性男子駕快艇從中國福州的寧德港出發，有知道他大概出發的時間是哪時候嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們請海巡署來提供詳細的數字。"],["謝副署長慶欽：它總共航行12小時，在6月9號早上11點10分靠港，所以應該是6月8號凌晨的時候。"],["李委員坤城：從福州寧德港出發。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們預判總共是12個小時。"],["李委員坤城：好，6月9號快艇在通過12浬的時候大概是6月9號的哪時候，有掌握到嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這個小艇，規定的話是在3浬偵測到，我們9點44分在6浬就偵測到了。"],["李委員坤城：所以通過我們領海12浬的時候沒有任何雷達或是怎麼樣的一個裝置可以偵測到？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們是近岸雷達，因為設置高度和反射波的問題，一般來講是12浬可以偵測得到。小艇的話，一般來講3浬偵測得到，這個案子我們6浬就抓到了。"],["李委員坤城：以後他們派小艇過來就好啦！"],["謝副署長慶欽：但是6浬我們看到之後，如果9點44分……"],["李委員坤城：我的意思說，到了12浬我們領海的時候，我們完全偵測不到嗎？如果它是快艇的話。"],["謝副署長慶欽：偵測得到，它有光點是忽明忽暗，這個時候雷操手依規定就要盯著這艘……"],["李委員坤城：你講的是6浬，還是12浬？"],["謝副署長慶欽：12浬就看得到。"],["李委員坤城：12浬就看得到？"],["謝副署長慶欽：6浬的時候是確定。"],["李委員坤城：所以12浬的時候我們的雷達手沒有看到？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有看到，但是沒辦法確定是一個漁船，因為它的光點是忽明忽暗，比較小，到6浬的時候確定。"],["李委員坤城：到6浬的時候是9點44分，6浬的時候有被偵測到了？"],["謝副署長慶欽：雷達標定、編號確定！"],["李委員坤城：但還是沒有辦法辨識它是屬於我們的，還是屬於中國的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，只有光點。"],["李委員坤城：已經到6浬囉！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：9點52分的時候到3浬，那我們是只有加強監控，沒有實際的攔截行為嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：依規定在6浬發現之後就要通報，並視威脅程度派艦艇攔截登檢。"],["李委員坤城：所以6浬的時候有通報嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有通報安檢所跟守望哨，可是巡防區沒有通報海巡隊的線上艇或預備艇出來攔截跟登檢，這是缺失。"],["李委員坤城：這是缺失嘛？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：到3浬了，已經慢慢推進了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：10點19分的時候靠近漁人碼頭，八里守望哨才用望遠鏡目視，用目視來看是不是我們的漁船，我覺得都已經到了漁人碼頭，我們才用目視來判斷。到12浬，你說有光點，不知道，6浬的時候有偵測到，但是也不確定到底是屬於中國，還是屬於我們的，然後3浬的時候有加強監控，但沒有實際去攔阻，也都沒有，到了漁人碼頭了，都已經到了漁人碼頭才用望遠鏡目視，現在已經2024年，我們還用望遠鏡目視看是不是我國的漁船。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，所以這個案子我們檢討有兩個缺失，第一個，9點44分6浬偵測到不明光點，確定是船舶的話，因為不確定，應該是要派艦艇過去辨別跟攔查登檢。"],["李委員坤城：6浬的時候沒有去攔截就是一個問題了，但我是說到12浬，已經到了我們的領海的時候，我們都還是沒辦法判斷，這個地方有沒有要加強、要精進的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們現在的監測雷達就是12浬以內，所以12浬我們發現之後就緊盯這個目標，全程監控。"],["李委員坤城：但是沒有啊，你說光點忽明忽暗，也不知道是誰啊！都已經長驅直入到6浬了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：但是持續關注，到6浬確定的時候，這個案子在6浬抓到，所以這個系統是沒有問題。剛才講的第二個問題就是當安檢所人員10點20分發現它不是我國籍漁船的話，這個時候就馬上要通報，他繼續用監控……"],["李委員坤城：你們是直到10點25分它跟我們一個交通船擦撞之後，然後渡輪業者去報案，我們才知道這件事情。"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，都在監控中，在10點25分……"],["李委員坤城：在監控中？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：你跟我說在監控中？監控中就是沒有作為，監控就是看而已，沒有作為啊！"],["謝副署長慶欽：剛才也講了，在10點20分八里守望哨人員已經確定這艘船不是我們國籍漁船，是10點20分。剛才講的順風122交通船是10點25分報案的，所以一直在監控中，但就是沒有立即派遣……"],["李委員坤城：人員有疏失啊！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["李委員坤城：我認為設備也要再精進。","我再問一下，我們的漢光38號演習是以臺北港淡水河口為防禦的重要據點，淡水河如果遭共軍攻陷的話，我們要怎麼去應對？這是漢光38號演習。再看漢光39號演習，39號演習也是淡水河口兩岸大規模軍演，這個是漢光38、漢光39，就是跟他進來的路徑是一樣的啊！對不對？我們38、39都已經演習過了，結果還讓一艘快艇長驅直入到了淡水河口！這應該是問國安局長，請問漢光40號演習呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分應該國防部已經有針對演習科目做相關的規劃。"],["李委員坤城：我認為漢光38、39都特別以淡水河口為主，就是說如果共軍長驅直入到淡水河口的時候要怎麼殲滅，如果沒有殲滅的話，長驅直入就到中樞，就可能到臺北了！對不對？還演練過可以把關渡大橋炸掉，都有這個設想嘛！結果一艘快艇，我是不好意思講，一艘快艇就把我們漢光38號、39號演習暴露出來的缺點在哪裡，所以我認為目前看起來雖然是個人，傷害性還不大，但是對我們國軍、對我們海巡侮辱性極強，這真的是要檢討，真的是要檢討！因為一艘快艇就把我們過去漢光38、39號……40號演習是7月份開始，可能都已假定，如果從淡水河口進來，我們該如何演練、如何預防，結果一艘快艇就把我們演習的重點突破了，我認為我們真的是要深自檢討。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們要針對這個個案凸顯的問題來做全面檢討、系統性的檢討，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝局長，謝謝副署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請翁曉玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.40596875,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.46409375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.94784375,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.57221875,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.035968750000002,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.64534375,"end":54.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.398468750000006,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.469718750000006,"end":60.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.891593750000006,"end":54.908468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.713468750000004,"end":75.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.05409375,"end":68.12159375},{"speaker":"SPE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碼頭了我們採用目視來判斷12海里你說有光點不知道6海里的時候有偵測到但是也不確定到底是屬於中國還是屬於我們的然後3海里的時候加強監控沒有實際去攔阻也都沒有到了漁人碼頭了已經到了漁人碼頭了用這個望遠鏡目視"},{"start":243.628,"end":256.873,"text":"這已經到了現在已經2024年了我還用望遠鏡來目視說是不是我國的漁船所以這個案子我們檢討有兩個缺失第一個9點44分用海裡偵測到不明光點確定是漁船確定是船沒畫應該因為不確定應該是要派艦艇過去辨別跟登檢"},{"start":261.451,"end":261.811,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":281.713,"end":286.135,"text":"你們是遲到了這個10點25分他是跟我們的一個交通船擦撞之後然後呢是杜倫業者去報案我們才知道這件事情的啊"},{"start":310.37,"end":326.338,"text":"跟委員報告都在監控中在10點25分在監控中你不要跟我講說在監控中在監控中就是沒有作為監控就是看而已沒有作為啊在10點20剛剛也講了巴黎首望哨人已經確定這艘船不是我們國際漁船是10點20"},{"start":328.559,"end":330.54,"text":"我們的漢光38號演習以台北港淡水河口是防禦的重要的據點"},{"start":348.844,"end":364.71,"text":"他說淡水河如果遭過共軍的攻陷的話我們要怎麼去應備是漢光38號演習然後看漢光39號演習39號演習呢也是以這個淡水河口兩岸大規模軍演下一張圖這個都是38漢光38漢光39就是跟他進來的路徑是一樣的啊對不對"},{"start":372.236,"end":379.5,"text":"我們38、39都已經演習過了結果你讓一艘快艇長驅直入就到了淡水河口那請問一下那這應該是問國安局長漢光40號演習勒"},{"start":383.526,"end":409.601,"text":"這部分應該國防部已經有在針對演習的科目有做相關的規劃我認為這個漢光38、39都特別以這個淡水河口就是說如果共軍長驅直入到淡水河口的時候你要是怎麼殲滅如果沒有殲滅的話長驅直入就到中蘇就可能到台北了對不對還演練過說如果關渡大橋可以把它炸掉都有這個設想嘛那結果一艘快艇"},{"start":411.379,"end":431.705,"text":"我是不好意思講一稍快點就把我們漢光38號、39號演習這個暴露出來的缺點在哪裡所以我認為說他雖然這是目前看起來是個人傷害性還不大但是對我們國軍、對我們海巡五路性極強這真的是要檢討因為一稍快點就把我們過去這個漢光38、39號、30、40號演習是7月份開始"},{"start":440.034,"end":459.171,"text":"可能都以假定就是說如果從淡水河口進來的時候我們該如何去演練如何去預防結果一燒快艇一燒快艇就把就把這個我們這個演習的這一個這個重點就把它就把它突破了我認為我們真的是要深緻檢討了對我們要針對這個個案凸顯的問題來做全面的檢討系統性的檢討謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝局長謝謝副處長謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":469.021,"end":471.59,"text":"接下來請汪小琳委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"153852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819f4dd13fb5b16e8320fec08313b105ec0dd6f040307a1001a507306caf82e4edd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:27:41 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Center，Data Center裡面要有空調及一些其他基礎的設施，那個還要另外三、四十億。"],["邱委員志偉：所以加起來200億？200億你到2028年才提升到200PetaFLOPS，對不對？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你那個虛擬的園區，本來你們主委有說園區是虛擬的概念嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：虛擬基本上是在寫軟體，那個是數發部的主責。"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！現在生態園區是虛擬的，還是實體的？這個請數發部說明。"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，現在我們政府工作職掌的分工是這樣子，就是國發會這邊要負責硬體跟軟體，他們這邊都有規劃；我們數發部主要是負責軟體，軟體產業特性是因為在上下游產業之間，並沒有實體貨物的運輸。而且現在軟體人才大部分都是……"],["邱委員志偉：所以我的感覺就是，數發部、國科會跟國發會好像大家都沒有完全整合，大家工作雖然有分工，但是沒有有效整合？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：包括國發會的這個報告，你們的微笑曲線是失衡的，對不對？在製造的部分是最底端，然後前端的技術研發它的條件非常好，但是智慧應用全球占比是非常低的，你說智慧應用的部分就是軟體的部分，軟體的部分是誰負責的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：軟體的部分是數發部負責。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！數發部負責的，好，數發部你要怎麼樣把目前占比低於1%的提升到什麼目標值？有沒有一個目標值？"],["林次長宜敬：抱歉！請問委員是什麼……"],["邱委員志偉：你現況智慧應用全球占比是低於1%，所以微笑曲線它是不均衡的微笑嘛！那麼你要把這個微笑變得更美好的微笑，不可以好像是歪著嘴巴的微笑這樣子，你那個微笑曲線要把它提升到多少目標？這個微笑曲線才會更漂亮？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們現在有一個目標，我們原來在這個部分占全國GDP的比重是1.2%，我們希望把它成倍到2.4%的GDP全國性占比。"],["邱委員志偉：全球占比你大概要達到多少目標？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果是這樣的話，全球占比也是要翻倍耶！"],["邱委員志偉：翻倍就是從不到1%變成2%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前短期目標是這樣子，長期我們當然希望它能夠占30%以上。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你覺得現在的微笑曲線是不是一個不均衡的微笑曲線？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前是不均衡，所以我們才要大力地讓它均衡，尤其是抓到我們可以高速成長的地方。"],["邱委員志偉：現在軟體的部分是數發部要負責的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，我們會一起共同做，我們已經開過兩次會議了。"],["邱委員志偉：建置超級電腦我繼續請教，你剛剛說的這個，2028年要到200PetaFLOPS，如果這個算力到2028年你們達標，在國際上的計算能力、計算能量評比大概是多少？"],["林副主任委員法正：我請國網中心主任跟您報告。"],["張主任朝亮：報告委員，這個每年都在改變，照現在來看，如果有200PetaFLOPS，大概可以列到前10名以內。"],["邱委員志偉：前10名？"],["張主任朝亮：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我們本來2018年是全世界95名，如果2028年到你們的目標──200PetaFLOPS，可以到全球前10名？"],["張主任朝亮：報告委員，我稍微更正一下，在2018年的時候，台灣杉二號其實是排第20名，是AI的machine。"],["邱委員志偉：是這樣子嗎？"],["張主任朝亮：對，你剛剛提的那個CPU machine。"],["邱委員志偉：那麼你的目標2028年提升到全球前10名，在亞洲我們相對競爭的國家，比方韓國、日本，他們這方面的計算能量有沒有超出臺灣？"],["張主任朝亮：當然，兩個國家都超過臺灣。"],["邱委員志偉：日本是多少？"],["張主任朝亮：日本是超級電腦大國……"],["邱委員志偉：南韓也是。"],["張主任朝亮：所以它可以說是上千的petaFLOPS。"],["邱委員志偉：這200會不會太過保守？"],["張主任朝亮：我個人的意見是有一點，但是我們現在已經在規劃擴充當中。"],["邱委員志偉：你說你的目標就是建置超級電腦，算力要提升，還有伺服器要增加，對不對？你說重點就是伺服器跟算力，國網中心主任又說這個太過保守。"],["林副主任委員法正：對，那個……"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼達不到400？"],["林副主任委員法正：是，因為政府整體的科技預算還是有限制，我們現在做的就是尋求國際廠商的合作，例如我們會要求這些國際大廠，它既然要來臺灣生產，是不是也應該協助臺灣建立超級電腦？我們現在是朝這一方面。如果兩相加成的話，應該會超過200，超過滿多的。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這個目標實在太過保守，你最起碼double到400，你看日本多少？日本現況是多少？"],["林副主任委員法正：500到1000。"],["邱委員志偉：我們到2028才到200，這樣太過保守吧？我們怎麼樣跟其他國家競爭？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，最後壓軸請經濟部部長。"],["主席：我們請郭部長。"],["邱委員志偉：郭部長，我完全由你的報告來跟您請教，經濟部要建立專屬生成式AI核心技術，應用在臺灣的製造跟服務業，這個部分什麼時候可以完成？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的計畫應該是在……"],["邱委員志偉：你們要建立專屬生成式AI核心技術，這個核心技術是什麼東西？"],["郭部長智輝：這個計畫馬上會送出來。"],["邱委員志偉：那要花多少錢？你們要建立這個，是你們的報告寫的，我用你的報告問你。目標是要協助產業AI化，產業包括傳統產業，也包括中小企業，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你要讓所有產業都達到AI化，所以你要建置我們自己專屬的AI核心技術。什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：今年會送出來，但是我們大概要花2億的預算。"],["邱委員志偉：2億就可以把生成式AI的核心技術……"],["郭部長智輝：因為是最底層的應用工程師……"],["邱委員志偉：2億就可以讓所有產業AI化？"],["郭部長智輝：那是應用，就是它操作的訓練……"],["邱委員志偉：你們講的還是太空泛、太抽象，要能夠更具體地說明你們怎麼做、這個核心技術的內涵是什麼、能夠達到預期的效果，是不是可以有一個書面資料給我們？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["邱委員志偉：你引進國際大廠，目前有沒有口袋名單？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：有幾家？"],["郭部長智輝：目前有三家。"],["邱委員志偉：我就不問你是哪三家，這有時候是機密問題。","另外，第3頁有說你的具體措施，是要透過驗證及大帶小的方式普及、擴散，建立產業導入AI指引，這個部分產創條例也要修第十條之一，對不對？讓租稅優惠能夠調整。這個部分我來幫忙。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員志偉：你加快速度把它送進來。你要怎麼樣建立產業導入AI的指引？這個什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：一個月裡面應該可以把這個計畫送出來。"],["邱委員志偉：製造業的AI加速普及，服務業的AI有沒有可能普及？"],["郭部長智輝：服務業也是一樣，服務業也是要用到AI……"],["邱委員志偉：我一直覺得你們偏重製造業，對於中小企業、服務業，如何讓他們的產業AI化，這個也很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：服務業的話我們大概會scan它的monitoring，它可以……"],["邱委員志偉：一般坊間、產業界都說我們重視製造業裡面的高階或者高科技產業，傳統製造業或中小型的部分卻得不到政府太多的關愛。"],["郭部長智輝：服務業或者商業，我們對盤點庫存或者是銷售都可以應對。"],["邱委員志偉：這個要擴大宣傳，讓這些中小企業跟服務業知道，經濟部、政府幫他們做哪些前瞻性的規劃跟政策作為，這個都要廣為宣傳。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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petaflop對不對到明年你要到100 petaflop到2028你要200 petaflop這種的這個超級電腦的算力"},{"start":204.949,"end":215.36,"text":"你在2018我們的計算能量是全球排名第95按照你的目標值你到2028才到200要投入多少錢費"},{"start":220.821,"end":245.744,"text":"跟委員大概講一個數字我們最近有看過就是如果我們採用NVIDIA最新的如果要200PF的話要100多億嗎130幾億你只要告訴我這個我剛提出的數據你的目標2028要到200PF是那這個你要建置這個算力提升算力要增加多少預算"},{"start":247.15,"end":269.861,"text":"就光電腦本身要一百三十幾億那當然你還要蓋Data CenterData Center裡面要有空調然後有一些其他的基礎設施那個還要另外三四十億所以加起來兩百億兩百億你到2028才提到提升到兩百Petal Flop 對不對我那個虛擬的這個園區啊虛擬的園區本來是那個你們主委"},{"start":275.086,"end":283.74,"text":"有說的園區是虛擬的概念嗎?那個虛擬就是基本上是在寫軟體那個是那個速發部的主則以下生態園區是虛擬的還是實體的?這個速發部"},{"start":287.914,"end":296.122,"text":"跟委員報告現在我們政府的那個工作職長的分工是這樣子就是說國發部國發會這邊是要負責那個有硬體跟軟體都是他們都是要負責這邊都有規劃那我們那個數發部主要是負責軟體那因為軟體產業這個特性是"},{"start":307.552,"end":334.443,"text":"因為在上下游產業之間並沒有實體貨物的運輸而且現在那個軟體人才大部分都是...所以我的感覺就是說數位發展部、國科會跟這個...呃...呃...國...國發會對好像雙...大家這個沒有完全整合大家這個工作雖然有分工但是沒有有效整合是所以包括國發會的這個...的報告你的微笑曲線是私橫的對不對"},{"start":336.144,"end":359.74,"text":"在這個製造的部分是最底端然後這個前端的技術研發它的條件非常好但是智慧應用全球佔比是非常低的所以這部分你說智慧應用的部分這是軟體的部分軟體的部分是誰負責的軟體部分是速發部對啊你速發部速發部你要怎麼樣把目前的佔比低於1%要提升到什麼目標值"},{"start":361.055,"end":377.809,"text":"有沒有一個目標值?你現況智慧應用全球占比是低1%嘛!所以微笑體驗是不均衡的微笑嘛!那你要把這微笑變得更美好的微笑!不能像歪嘴巴的微笑"},{"start":378.968,"end":400.765,"text":"你這微笑曲線你要把它提升到多少目標你這微笑曲線才會更漂亮各位委員報告我們現在有一個目標那我們原來在這個部分占全國GDP的比重是1.2%我們希望把它成倍到2.4%的GDP那全球占比你要大概要達到多少目標如果是這樣的話全球占比也是要翻倍"},{"start":401.758,"end":427.222,"text":"反正就是從不到1%變成2%目前的短期目標是這樣長期我們當然希望它能夠佔30%以上所以你覺得現在的微效曲線是不是一個不均衡的微效曲線目前是不均衡所以我們才要大力的讓它均衡那尤其是抓到我們可以高速成長的地方所以在軟體的部分是速發部要負責的是的我們會一起共同做我們開過兩次會議了那個"},{"start":431.912,"end":448.249,"text":"建制超級電腦我繼續請教你剛剛說的到2028要到200 petaflop如果這個算力到2028你們達標在國際上的計算能力計算能量平比大概是多少"},{"start":451.346,"end":473.676,"text":"我請那個國防中心主任跟您報告報告委員這個每年都在改變照現在來看如果有200PF大概可以列到前10名以內我們本來2018是這個全世界95名那如果2028到你們的目標200PF可以到這個全球前10名"},{"start":474.666,"end":489.318,"text":"報告委員我稍微更正一下2018的時候台灣32號其實是排20名第20名是AI的MACHINE是這樣子嗎對你剛剛提的那個CPUMACHINE那你的目標2028前任到全球前10名在亞洲我們相對的這個競爭的國家比方韓國、日本"},{"start":491.954,"end":512.82,"text":"他的這方面的計算能量有沒有超出台灣?當然,兩個國家都超過台灣日本是多少?日本它是超級電腦的大國所以它其實都是可以說上千個配套所以這200會不會太未保守?我個人意見是有一點,但是我們現在已經在規劃擴充當中"},{"start":514.74,"end":530.245,"text":"所以你說你的目標就是建制超級電腦就是你的算力要提升嘛還有伺服器要增加嘛 對不對你說所謂的重點就是伺服器跟這個算力那你算力他說這個市長就說這個國防中心主任就說這個太過於保守"},{"start":531.125,"end":557.748,"text":"對 那為什麼不能double到400呢是是 跟委員報告齁因為政府的整體的科技預算還是有限制所以我們現在做的就是也是在尋求國際廠商的合作例如我們會跟國際這些大廠他既然要來台灣生產的話他是不是也應該要協助台灣建立超級電腦我們現在是朝這一方面那如果兩相加成的話應該會超過200 超過蠻多的我覺得這個目標實在太過於保守你最起碼要double到400你看日本有多少"},{"start":559.366,"end":564.607,"text":"日本現況是多少?500到1000500到1000?我們2028才到200那太被剝削吧那我們怎麼樣跟其他國家競爭另外部長最後這個壓軸請部長經濟部部長我們請郭部長"},{"start":581.397,"end":607.349,"text":"部長我完全由你的報告來跟您請教這個經濟部在建立專屬生成式AI核心技術運用在台灣的製造跟服務業這個部分什麼時候可以完成我們的計畫應該是在這個你們要建立專屬生成式的AI核心技術這個核心技術是什麼東西馬上會這個計畫馬上會送出來"},{"start":610.609,"end":638.885,"text":"那要花多少錢?你們要建立這個你們報告寫的我用你的報告來問你啊目標是要協助產業AI化產業包括傳統產業也包括中小企業對不對你要讓所有產業都能夠達到AI化所以你要建置我們自己專屬的AI核心技術那什麼時候會出來?我們應該馬上今年會送出來但是我們大概要花兩億的這個預算"},{"start":640.902,"end":668.349,"text":"兩億就可以把這個生成式的AI我是最底層的應用工程師兩億就可以讓所有產業讓它AI化那是應用嘛就是說一個它操作的訓練你們講的還是太空泛還是太抽象能夠更具體的把你們怎麼做這個核心技術的內涵是什麼能夠達到預學效果是不是可以有一個書面資料給我們然後你引進國際大廠你目前有沒有口袋名單"},{"start":670.407,"end":694.643,"text":"有幾家目前有三家目前有三家那我就不問你是哪三家有時候是機密問題另外最後一頁第三頁你要說你的具體的措施要透過驗證或代小方式來普及擴散然後建立產業導入AI之一"},{"start":697.43,"end":724.444,"text":"這個部分你們船上條例也要修十之一對不對讓租稅優惠能夠調整這個部分我來幫忙我來幫忙你加快速度把它送進來那你要怎麼樣建立這個產業導入AI的指引這個什麼時候會出來一樣我們這個應該是在這個一個月裡面應該可以把這個計畫送出來吧那你製造業的AI普及加速那服務業的AI有沒有可能普及"},{"start":725.165,"end":741.992,"text":"服務業也是一樣我一直覺得你們偏重在製造業那對於這個中小企業對於這個服務業這如何讓他這個產業AI化這也是很重要服務業的話我們大概會在那個scan他的那個模擬品"},{"start":742.912,"end":768.168,"text":"所以一般坊間這些產業就是說我們重視製造業製造業裡面的高階或高科技產業傳統的製造業或中小型的製造業卻得不到政府的太多的關愛報告委員服務業或商業我們對盤點庫存或是銷售的都可以擔憂讓這些中小型企業跟服務業知道說我們經濟部、政府幫他們做了哪些前瞻性的規劃"},{"start":769.309,"end":770.17,"text":"跟政策的作為﹐這個要廣為宣傳"}]}},{"id":"153851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819833c8ef0c3b26cc898b2dfa55713766cdd6f040307a1001a73d0700f6c74c60f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:26:56 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11:37:51","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:26:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:37:51+08:00","duration":655,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":704,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時27分）主席，謝謝。我有看到我們列席的有交通部民航局遙控無人機工作小組的執秘，是不是？"],["主席：麻煩執秘。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先請這位執秘來一下，好不好？我有一個事情就教一下。","執秘，我想過來還是要針對你的專業來做討論，我請教，現在我們民航局有遙控無人機工作小組，這個工作小組主要做的是什麼樣的工作？"],["耿執行秘書驊：這邊跟委員報告，遙控無人機工作小組主要是針對民用航空法所規範的遙控無人機的管理事項，針對遙控無人機的註冊、飛航活動申請，還有相關的一些圖資設定……"],["洪委員孟楷：以我們現在的科技來講，譬如博愛特區，這是很明顯禁止遙控無人機來這邊飛行，對不對？"],["耿執行秘書驊：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果一般的玩家、業者沒有申請，他有可能讓遙控無人機飛到博愛特區上空嗎？這是不是有相關的科技方式去做遮蔽或是干擾？"],["耿執行秘書驊：這邊跟委員說明一下，因為遙控無人機本身跟我們傳統的航空器不太一樣的地方是，傳統的航空器都是飛機製造商設計製造出來的，要做一臺傳統意義的飛機或者是直升機，以個人來講，是一件很困難的事情，但是遙控無人機是完全不一樣的發展思路，它是以手機科技的方式往上做疊加及疊戴的，在我們目前的管理上面，我們是利用民用航空法的專章設計去進行相關的規範，所以就這個部分來講，現在我們的遙控無人機管理，在行政程序上面，不管是註冊，或者是飛航活動申請，甚至相關的法人及自然人的權利義務，大概都有一定的規範，只是在技術上面……"],["洪委員孟楷：你完全沒有針對我的問題回答，我現在問的是如果有些地方就是禁止遙控無人機飛航，那能夠用什麼樣的科技方式去做阻擾？是不是像電子地圖可以用遮蔽，還是用什麼樣的方式，讓它在那個地方沒有辦法飛行？"],["耿執行秘書驊：現在分成兩種，一種是比較主動的作法，就是遙控無人機在設計製造的時候，大的廠商會在裡面設計所謂的電子圍籬去做處理，這是目前最普遍的一個方式，但是這樣子做的話，只能對於所謂的大的廠商，比方比較有名的廠商，它一次做出來幾萬臺在市面上販售的商品，但是遙控無人機本身的門檻很低，所以如果是自行購買市面上的零件去組裝一個無人機的話，要在這裡面去加裝所謂的電子圍籬，在技術上面目前還是有難度的。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼本席會特別請教你？因為這是專業的議題。我們也看到很多離島的部分，譬如會有對岸的無人機，不管是民用的或是其他的，我們看到每一次有人報導，其實這已經好幾年了，那個時候立法院在這個委員會討論總預算的時候，我們也要求國防部應該要購買相關的設備或是干擾槍去把無人機干擾下來，不要讓它飛行，我覺得任何一個地方的無人機都不應該做侵犯我國領空的事情，但到目前為止為什麼一直沒有這樣的防範？民航局這邊有相關的工作小組，有沒有什麼專業的意見可以提供？如果有無人機進入到我國的領空，而且明顯就不是我們的無人機的話，我們怎麼樣能夠把它打下來？還是說只能用丟石頭的方式？"],["耿執行秘書驊：跟委員做一個報告，因為無人機……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有沒有實際的辦法？從過去到現在，民航局遙控無人機工作小組有沒有討論過？"],["耿執行秘書驊：我們遙控無人機工作小組所負責的業務是基於民航法相關的規範去進行活動的管理。"],["洪委員孟楷：依據民航法，無人機如果進入到機場裡面，我們有沒有什麼樣的規範？"],["耿執行秘書驊：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嘛！"],["耿執行秘書驊：這部分我們是有相關的一些應處，不管是在裝備或器材上面……"],["洪委員孟楷：器材、裝備，我們現在有什麼樣的裝備是可以來對付的？"],["耿執行秘書驊：目前採取的是定位遙控無人機的位置，然後進行一些干擾。"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣的一個設備有多少費用？"],["耿執行秘書驊：您說費用嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：譬如說我們購置一套可以保護機場不要受無人機干擾的設備要多少費用？"],["耿執行秘書驊：這部分要看保護的範圍的大小跟反制的目的跟效能，會有不同程度的設計。目前已知，如果保護像一個機場這麼大的範圍的話，設置成本我們必須要逐年去做編列，大概在千萬元以上；如果說是小範圍，所謂點目標的防護的話，這可能是比較偏反制這一塊，我們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝執秘，本席只要確認這是可以做得到的，而不是沒有辦法做到，其實民航局有相關的專業……"],["耿執行秘書驊：就機場的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：未來應該要針對譬如說離島的部分，跟國防部也要進行討論，本席也會再持續追蹤，本席要的是我們的領空不要隨時看到那種影片、畫面，說奇怪，對岸的無人機或是什麼，就是要來干擾我們的上空，好不好？"],["耿執行秘書驊：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["洪委員孟楷：抱歉召委，有一個事情還是要請司法院秘書長，抱歉，雖然時間有點耽擱，但是我想這個議題我還是必須要請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["洪委員孟楷：秘書長，我們很多委員都在關心到底這個是要專章，還是要做刑事訴訟法的修法，其中這一次科偵法專法的部分，有一個採取的是法官保留原則，但是很多人也講，法官現在的人力跟量能是不是足夠，讓第一線的執法者能夠負荷？意思就是說，如果立專法的話，之後檢警要使用科技方式偵查的話，都必須要有法院的聲請核可或是獲得核可書，是不是這樣？"],["吳秘書長三龍：看怎麼修法啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：目前看起來行政部門提出來的版本是這樣子，這樣會不會造成我們第一線的法官業務又更加重？"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以我們是尊重國會這邊到時候通過……"],["洪委員孟楷：你的態度呢？你是為了法官來說。我們說實在的，你的態度是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那當然現在法官人力很吃緊，所以相對重要的部分才要法官保留啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：可是如果以現在行政院所推出來的科技偵查及保障法來做這樣專法的話，一方面希望能夠有強化破案的工具，但一方面又要兼顧人權保障，所以草案的部分只要看到檢察官或是司法警察需要實施調查，各環節都會綁著法官保留原則，就是都需要跟法院聲請核可。那會不會造成過去這段時間法官面臨到爆量的詐欺案件，已經很明顯有過勞的狀況，甚至我們一個月前在司法及法制委員會也在安排相關專法的時候有講到，現在我們法官人數的缺額有499位，對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：缺額很多。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果我們現在依行政部門提出來的都需要用專法，而不是像其他委員有提出刑事訴訟法能夠來修法，這樣會不會反而到時候壓力也都加諸在法官身上？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個目前看起來並不會因為專法，法官人力就會比較少，並不會啦！因為這樣比對起來，要法官保留的部分都差不多啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：如果這樣的話，未來我們怎麼樣來幫法官增加人力，或者是說減少過勞的狀況？司法院今天過來，你們應該要站在本位主義這邊去做討論，當然打詐是國人必須要看到的，也希望政府拿出決心跟態度，但是我們也要知道未來怎麼樣能夠運行得更加順暢。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個因為是經過國會通過的法律，在我們執行端還是要配合處理，本來順位就是這樣，法律通過之後，在法院如何執行這部分就看法律怎麼定了。"],["洪委員孟楷：秘書長沒有想要順勢幫我們法官講講話嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然我們會儘量爭取員額，因為時代的需要，我們到最後當然尊重國會通過的法律，該爭取員額我們就儘量來爭取。但是關於如何保障人權，這個應該都是一個大方向，所以修法之後，該法官保留、法官該盡責的部分，我們還是要努力，該爭取員額那是另外一個層次的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：秘書長，我們之後也會再針對這部分來做相關的逐條討論，其實現在有委員的版本，以及行政院希望能夠立科偵法的版本，即立專法或是修刑事訴訟法，我覺得在逐條的部分，該有司法院的態度跟角色，你還是要適時提出來，好不好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：好，我們到時候看如何討論，逐條來看，今天我們刑事廳、主管廳也都有一起來，我們看如何來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員。","所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或書面答復，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員翁曉玲所提的書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.38034375,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.3453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是說只能用丟石頭的方式是好那這邊跟委員做一個報告那因為我們有沒有實際的辦法"},{"start":245.186,"end":261.756,"text":"過去到現在我們民航局遙控無人機工作小組有沒有討論過?那個我們遙控無人機工作小組這邊所負責的業務是基於民航法相關的規範去進行那民航法如果說到無人機如果說進入到我們機場裡面我們有沒有什麼樣的一個"},{"start":262.777,"end":264.057,"text":"三）刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":285.86,"end":311.81,"text":"這樣的一個設備比如說我們構置一套有多少費用是可以保護我們比如說機場不要受無人機的干擾那這部分的話要看保護的範圍的大小跟你所使用的無人機就是反制的目的跟效能那這邊會有不同程度的設計那目前已知道的話如果一個保護像一個機場這麼大的範圍的話他設置的成本我們必須要逐年的去做編列大概在千萬元以上"},{"start":312.31,"end":313.451,"text":"條文修正草案案件事務委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":337.386,"end":364.042,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第六百四十五"},{"start":366.684,"end":382.136,"text":"因為我們很多委員都在關心是說到底這個是要專章還是要做這個刑事訴訟法的一個修法啦齁那其中我們這一次的這個科爭法的一個專法的部分那有一個採取的是法官保留原則"},{"start":382.816,"end":408.302,"text":"但是很多人也講法官現在在人力跟量能是不是足夠能夠讓第一線的執法者能夠負荷就意思就是說如果說專法的話之後檢警要使用科技方式偵查的話都必須要有法院的申請核可或是獲得核可書是不是那在看怎麼修法那目前現在看起來行政部門提出來的版本是這樣子嗎"},{"start":409.582,"end":426.882,"text":"刑事訴訟法第七十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四"},{"start":427.577,"end":440.991,"text":"那當然現在法官人力很吃緊嘛。是。很吃緊啊。很吃緊。所以這個就是說在相對重要的才法官保留啦。"},{"start":442.857,"end":469.69,"text":"相對重要的部分。」可是現在我們看到是說如果說以現在行政院所推出來的科技偵查跟保障法來做這樣專法的話那一方面希望能夠要有強化破案的工具但一方面又要兼顧人權保障所以草案的部分只要看到檢察官或是司法檢察需要實施調查各環節都會綁著法官保留原則就是都需要跟法院申請核可啊"},{"start":470.33,"end":485.64,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第三百五條之"},{"start":487.481,"end":488.362,"text":"條文修正草案案 刑事訴訟法"},{"start":503.991,"end":529.998,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":533.519,"end":553.41,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":562.91,"end":577.487,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":578.39,"end":593.986,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":594.767,"end":606.418,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、"},{"start":610.382,"end":635.86,"text":"法官該保留然後法官該盡責的部分我們還是要努力啊該爭取言惡那是另外一個層次的問題啊好民眾長我們之後也會再針對這部分來做相關的主條討論那其實現在有委員的版本以及這行政院希望能夠科證法的版本專法或是修行事訴訟法我覺得在這個主條的部分該有司法院的一個態度跟角色事實你還是要提出來"},{"start":636.24,"end":654.834,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、"}]}},{"id":"153850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193003837ce59ebf2d182e407f268492bcdd6f040307a1001a2fac930a77093c4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：甚至在前幾天，有個次長到辦公室開會，他不斷地接到電話，我說：您接沒關係。銀行通知他，他的信用卡被盜刷2萬，我跟他說：這可能是詐騙電話，我請辦公室幫您確認一下。果然真的是被盜刷，所以我想這個是每個人都遇得到，跟我們的年齡、教育程度其實沒有什麼相關，因為他們可能就是亂數在那個地方跑。我現在是說，其實信用卡確實很讓人困擾，我看到金管會下的聯合信用卡處理中心也有做一些統計資料，把信用卡的詐騙類型分為7大類，這當中我們也看到從10年前（2014年），27萬筆的詐欺筆數，詐騙金額是5.7億，到現在大約是60萬筆，金額33億，它是有高低起伏，但確實是不斷的在成長當中。在這個當中，我請教一下，我看到你們做出來的這個分析，網購類的占比是99%，其他包括被竊卡、遺失卡，其他種種的占比加起來才1%，可是網購類的信用卡詐欺是占99%。我想請教主委，差距這麼大的比例，您認為是什麼樣的情形？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想可能網購是一個通路，但它很多工具可能是分類的關係，不過確實網購是一個很大的詐騙可以在那邊出沒的地方，這樣可以看得出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果這樣的分類確實的話，我知道的是，我有問別人，就是網購到底你們是怎麼被詐騙？他們是說，因為現在有信用卡，他去網購的時候不需要透過實體，只要留下他的卡號、辨識碼、日期、姓名等等資料，而這些資料其實可以透過設立一個假網站或釣魚的連結簡訊，又或者其為粉專小編。其實我們在滑臉書什麼的經常都滑得到類似型態，它就是把你的個資竊取了、我們自己就外洩了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我現在想請教主委，這樣的防堵方式，金管會有什麼策進作為嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們過去也觀察到信用卡在刷卡過程當中潛藏蠻多的風險，我們做了幾件事情，要求他們比如在刷卡的時候，第一個，要求顯示新臺幣的金額，我們也看到，比如NTD，它要KTT，結果是科威特的錢，我們以為兩百塊很少，結果它的幣值非常大，這也是一個，它必須以中文顯示，我們要求信用卡公司必須通知。再來，必須透過OTP方式做認證，我們就是想要降低這個，否則剛剛講……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委，你講到OTP，我也問過，他們說OTP確實是最好的一種驗證方式，但他們說可不可以再改進一下？因為OTP發送簡訊，有的銀行用Email，有的是簡訊、手機簡訊加Email，但Email其實是一個破口……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實手機大家天天拿在手上，就算手機不見了也會急著去找，這是其一；其二，他們說有一些，舉個例子像PChome，他們有的沒有加入OTP簡訊驗證碼……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以金管會在這個部分，我想你們是不是應該做個盤點？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如信用卡在刷卡的時候，OTP驗證的部分我們會去瞭解……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，就是關於OTP驗證，因為大家都說這個最好、最有效，那你應該去盤點，哪一些沒有加入，要公告啊！讓大家知道哪一些人沒有加入這種驗證方式；也去盤點一下有哪些是用Email發送，大家說那個不好用，我想金管會應該可以做這個工作吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們來盤點沒有問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。另外，雖然不到1%，但它也占4.7億元，就是遺失卡的部分，之前在3月25日我曾經質詢，因為大家都說是不是可以請金管會去要求一下，針對金融卡、信用卡設置一站式掛失機制。我要跟主委講，那天質詢了之後，好幾家媒體其實都有把這樣的新聞訊息披露出來，表示說很有感，大家覺得這確實是個問題，如果能夠解決的話很好。但金管會的回復是這樣，目前持卡人「申辦信用卡及金融卡約定條款」尚未授權單一掛失窗口業務；第二個，辦理掛失業務，須由各銀行機構分別與持卡人本人詳細確認個資，增加單一窗口進行相關作業，可能提高個資外洩、掛失錯卡等相關風險及損失。所以在我看來好像是很難，銀行好像沒有意願，但是我們也覺得很奇怪，因為按照信用卡定型化契約，其實上面都寫著，如果辦理掛失，須由發卡機構負擔，或者是掛失手續前24小時，持卡人免負擔，理論上我們覺得應該是銀行比較吃虧吧！所以金管會是不是可以也幫忙調查──被掛失、盜刷這種的，到底是民眾的損失多還是銀行的損失多，可以幫忙瞭解一下嗎？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，我們來看看有沒有這個資料，我們來理解一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，瞭解之後，我們可能還是要有一些策進作為。就剛才的部分，麻煩主委於一個月內再以書面回復我，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委。","請法務部次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。我看到法務部有一筆資料，關於地檢署執行原住民裁判確定有罪者之前十大罪名，裡頭大概是寫到，以詐欺罪成長最多，年增率67.5%。我自己也做了一點功課，因為這樣的資料揭露有一點危險，會讓人家以為原住民犯詐欺罪很多，但全國詐欺罪的成長率為76.6%，而原住民人口是占全體國人的2.5%。我也特別去看了一下這樣的詐欺罪案例，全年度349件，除以全體的母數一萬四千多件，也跟人口比例很符合、2.5%，就讓我比較沒有那麼緊張了。但是我要跟次長講，我很憂慮、我很難過，為什麼？這樣的比例雖然跟全國差不多，甚至低於全國，可是你知道嗎？我們看貧窮線的時候，以去年來講，全體國人的家戶平均收入為129萬，但原住民為73萬，幾乎是一半，也就是對原住民來講，其實對我們來講這是不可承受之重或輕啊！對我們的經濟影響其實很大，所以我就是很關心也很想瞭解，因為這是2013至2017年的資料，不曉得法務部後來有什麼樣的策進作為、有改善嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們還是會透過不同的管道宣導，當然原住民朋友跟一般民眾，我們也都是一樣會做宣導、偏鄉的宣導……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：宣導有用嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：宣導是基本的，我想我們甚至於會到小學、中學，我們會從最基本的開始宣導，宣導是有用……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們宣導了十幾、二十幾年，那些孩子也都已經成為成年人了。可是沒有改善啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：是，我們的宣導工作不能停，就是我們一定會從小就……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以我希望聽到的是，宣導之外，還有什麼策進作為？"],["徐次長錫祥：如何改善原住民朋友的生活環境，我想委員也都很關心，這是政府……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為這種詐欺人頭對原住民來講，我們的經濟體質本來就比較弱，其實會造成我們更大的衝擊。"],["徐次長錫祥：所以委員一直在關心這個問題，如何改善他們……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：人頭帳戶，像我從柬埔寨帶回來的那些人，他就立刻進航警局，他就是人頭戶啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個情形很嚴重。"],["徐次長錫祥：對，如何改善他們的工作環境……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：他們把我們等同於像遊民一樣，是可以利用的啊！是欺騙我們、博取我們的善良！所以我希望法務部要有更多策進作為，而且這是2013至2017年的資料，2018至2024年的我就沒看到了，無法比較到底有沒有成效。所以是不是可以提供我最近5年──2018至2024年的資料？讓我瞭解看看有沒有成效，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好，會後我們再……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這是我很關心的……"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望我們不要當人頭戶。我知道有檢舉獎金嘛！"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：可以增加嗎？就是如果有人來找我當人頭，我檢舉他，我有更多的獎金可以拿，這樣可以嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：目前詐騙這一部分好像還沒有設計到……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我們可以來研議，我強調的就是，除了宣導之外的策進作為，好不好？"],["徐次長錫祥：好，是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長。"],["主席：好，請法務部會後提供完整的資料給伍委員。","接著請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ VASP 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結果是科威特的錢我們以為200塊很少結果它的幣值是非常大它這也是一個它必須用中文來顯示我們這要求我們信用卡公司必須通知再來必須透過OTP的方式有沒有來做認證這樣我們就是想要降低這個因為否則剛剛講"},{"start":264.439,"end":284.771,"text":"謝謝主委你講到OTP我也問過他們說OTP確實是最好的一種驗證方式但是呢他們說可不可以再改進一下因為這個OTP發送簡訊啊它有的銀行它是用email有的是簡訊手機簡訊加email"},{"start":286.603,"end":305.234,"text":"但是這個電郵其實是一個破口那其實手機大家天天拿在手上就算手機不見了也會急著去找所以他其實這個部分這是其一那其二他們說有一些舉個例子像PC Home他們有的沒有加入這個OTP簡訊驗證碼所以金管會這個部分我是想說你們是不是應該來去做一個盤點"},{"start":312.472,"end":335.761,"text":"就是在比如說在信用卡刷卡的時候OTP驗證的部分我們會來對就是關於這個OTP驗證因為大家都說這個是最好最有效那你應該去盤點哪一些沒有加入要公告讓大家知道哪一些人他並沒有加入這種驗證方式那也去盤一下有哪些是用email發送大家說那個不好用我想金管會應該可以做這個工作吧"},{"start":336.541,"end":349.286,"text":"我們的盤點沒有問題啦好 那另外就是雖然不到1%喔但是他也佔4.7億元啊就是那個遺失卡的部分那我之前在3月25號的時候其實我有質詢過"},{"start":351.787,"end":370.404,"text":"因為大家都說是不是可以請金管會去要求一下做一個一戰式的金融卡、信用卡掛屍機制那我要跟主委講喔其實那天質詢了之後好幾家的媒體其實都有把這樣的新聞訊息披露出來表示說很有感"},{"start":371.044,"end":384.279,"text":"大家覺得這確實是個問題如果能夠解決的話很好但是金管會的回覆是這樣說他說目前持卡人身辦信用卡及金融卡約定條款尚未授權單一掛式窗口的業務第二個呢"},{"start":388.043,"end":401.58,"text":"說辦理掛失業務需要各銀行機構分別與持卡人、本人詳細確認個資增加單一窗口進行相關資業可能會提高個資外洩措施掛失的相關風險及損失"},{"start":403.402,"end":429.479,"text":"所以我看起來好像是很難銀行好像沒有意願但是我們也覺得很奇怪啊因為按照信用卡定型化契約其實上面都寫著如果辦理掛失其實是需由發卡機構負擔或者是掛失手續前24小時持卡人免負擔所以理論上我們覺得應該是銀行比較吃虧吧"},{"start":430.259,"end":445.993,"text":"所以金管會是不是可以幫忙去調查一下到底這樣的一個被掛屍的倒刷這種他到底民眾的損失多還是銀行的損失多可以幫忙了解一下嗎 主委可以 我們來看看有沒有這個資料對"},{"start":446.834,"end":446.914,"text":"委員好"},{"start":472.24,"end":489.517,"text":"市長好我看到你們法務部有一筆資料就是關於地檢署執行原住民裁判確定有罪者之前十大罪名那裡頭大概是寫到說詐欺罪的成長最多啦"},{"start":491.879,"end":508.933,"text":"年增率是67.5%但是我自己也做了一點功課因為這樣的資料的揭露有一點危險會讓人家以為原住民會詐欺罪很多但是全國的詐欺罪的成長率是76.6%"},{"start":513.237,"end":533.402,"text":"我們原住民的人口是佔全體國人的2.5%那我也特別去看了一下這樣的一個詐欺罪的案例就是全年度349件除以全體的母數14000多件也是跟人口比例很符合2.5%"},{"start":535.722,"end":557.218,"text":"那就讓我比較沒有那麼緊張了啦但是我要跟次長您講但是我很憂慮我很難過為什麼這樣的一個比例雖然跟全國差不多而且甚至低於全國可是你知道嗎我們看貧窮線的時候以去年來講"},{"start":558.419,"end":564.437,"text":"我們全體國人的家戶平均收入是129萬可是原住民是73萬"},{"start":566.494,"end":590.557,"text":"幾乎一半也就是說對原住民來講其實對我們來講這是不可承受之重或輕啊對我們的經濟影響其實是很大的所以呢我就是很關心也很想了解就是後來因為這是2013到2017的資料嘛那不曉得說法務部這邊後來有什麼樣的策進作為有改善嗎"},{"start":592.179,"end":619.876,"text":"我們還是會透過不同的管道來宣導當然我們原住民的朋友跟我們一般的民眾我們也都是一樣會做宣導偏鄉的宣導宣導有用嗎宣導是基本的我想我們甚至於會到小學、中學我們要從最基本開始宣導起宣導是有用嗎可是我們宣導了十幾二十幾年那些孩子也都已經成為成年人了"},{"start":620.436,"end":646.007,"text":"是可是沒有改善啊我們的宣導工作不能停就是說我們一定會從小就所以我希望聽宣導之外還有什麼策進作為那如何改善原住民朋友的生活環境我想委員也都很關心因為其實這種詐欺人頭對原住民來講其實我們的經濟體質本來就比較弱其實會造成我們更大的衝擊"},{"start":647.208,"end":661.762,"text":"所以委員一直在關心這個問題因為像這個人頭帳戶像我從柬埔寨帶回來的那些人他就立刻進行警局啊他就是人頭戶啊這個情形很嚴重啊"},{"start":663.523,"end":688.562,"text":"他們把我們等同於像遊民一樣是可以利用的是欺騙我們博取我們的善良所以我希望法務部要有更多策進作為而且這是2013到2017的資料2018到2024我就沒看到所以我無法比較到底有沒有成效所以是不是可以提供我最近五年2018到2024的資料讓我了解看看有沒有成效"},{"start":690.363,"end":713.072,"text":"這我很關心我希望我們不要當人頭戶那未來我知道有檢舉獎金嘛是可以增加嗎就是如果有人來找我當人頭我檢舉他我有更多的獎金可以拿這樣可以嗎目前目前詐騙這一部分好像還沒有設計到那我們可以來演我強調就是除了宣導之外是徹盡作為好不好好好謝謝謝謝次長"}]}},{"id":"153849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8190623875d68c1cd6859a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001a37ca193e531fa9a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:23:04 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point，就是沒有講出來、沒有答案。今天大家都最關心大陸的前艇長或者艦長直衝淡水，你的答案就是任何可能都有，這樣你國安局不知道在做什麼，都不知道？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，我們剛剛在跟媒體說明，除了任何可能都有以外，也特別提到我們國安單位未來要查察的重點，會放在當事人的解放軍背景，以及他在背後有沒有涉入到中共的一個操作手法。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，有沒有為這個事情開國安會議？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我剛剛也跟其他委員有報告過，在事情發生之後，國安會第一時間就召開了跨部會的協調會議，來釐清整個過程。"],["賴委員士葆：誰當主席？"],["蔡局長明彥：是由國安會吳秘書長主持的。"],["賴委員士葆：秘書長來主持？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：不是總統？這個問題叫做笑死全世界，對方對我們這麼敵意，然後一個快艇可以這樣長驅直入，如入無人之地，還自己上岸。請問他是自己報案還是被人家抓到？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分的整個過程，剛剛海巡署也跟其他委員有說明，也就是他在6浬外的時候，海巡署的雷達就已經掌握到這艘小艇的位置，後續在做判讀上，可能有做一些誤判，所以才有昨天做了一些查處。"],["賴委員士葆：你看喔！他到了這個位置，那個時間又是漲潮，他從漁人碼頭到大佳碼頭，什麼意思？到圓山指揮所、衡山指揮所、海軍司令部不到1個小時欸！到大稻埕碼頭、總統府這裡，都不到1個小時，很可怕欸！你不覺得這個事情很可怕嗎？這是很嚴肅的問題啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個案例確實很特別。"],["賴委員士葆：是不是要很緊張？整個國防、海防不知道在做什麼！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個案例確實有引起我們高度關注，特別是當事人自稱他有解放軍的背景，所以對於各種推論，我為什麼一開始會講各種可能都有，也就是委員剛剛講的可能性也都在其中，所以這也是後續查察的重點，因為檢方已經啟辦偵查了，我們這部分就尊重檢方。"],["賴委員士葆：就在我質詢前2分鐘、前3分鐘，國台辦講話了，說這是個人行為，不要過度解讀，你怎麼看這句話？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有在注意中方相關的資訊，有時候有出現這種類似灰色地帶的襲擾，我們看到中共有一些媒體會做一些訊息操作，目前有在注意，還沒有看到大規模的訊息操作。"],["賴委員士葆：他剛發布喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這是官方的說法。"],["賴委員士葆：官方的說法。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：說是個人行為，它沒有介入，可是我都很質疑，我都懷疑，他一艘幾萬塊的快艇，可以開這麼久嗎？開十幾個小時。"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛海巡署也在針對委員的說明……他有說明這部分，就他的油料還有他的航程，海巡有做了相關的足跡推演。"],["賴委員士葆：海巡署再講一遍。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，這艘船據供述是從寧德出港，距離我們臺灣大概就是136浬，而油量的話，我們查了，出發時是260公升，船上還有備用的油桶，到淡水已經剩下133公升，從這個跡證跟相關的電子取證部分，我們研判這個說法是合理，但是不排除任何可能。另外……"],["賴委員士葆：大船載小船，有沒有這個可能？大船載小船這樣下來？"],["謝副署長慶欽：目前是臆測，因為沒有具體事證，我們勘驗現場時，該船沒有任何吊掛的設備，我們現在在深入查證中，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：好。蔡局長，我提醒你，以前的國共內戰，老共最流行的是什麼？前面一堆漁船，主力艦隊在後面，這個也不排除他來探路，是不是這樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：是、對，剛剛也是在分析整個案情，我們認為各種可能性都有，不能夠排除。"],["賴委員士葆：幾個可能你告訴我們，不要唬弄，有幾個可能，跟我們講一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：檢方在偵辦，第一部分有可能是有中共配合到這一陣子的灰帶的操作，變成是個案之一，這是一種可能性，那第二種可能性是如當事人他自己陳述的，因為他嚮往臺灣的自由，他要來這邊投奔自由，當然這是第二種可能。"],["賴委員士葆：這個可能性高嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為我們本身並沒有調查權，必須由檢方再抽絲剝繭蒐集相關的證據。另外，可能要注意到的是，我們也有相關的跡證，剛剛海巡署也提到了，因為雷達對於他的航跡都有相關的掌握，還要再配合到他自述的相關證詞，比如說，他是從哪個地方出發，回溯他的數位足跡，以及海巡署的雷達回放，也都要做資料的判讀。"],["賴委員士葆：簡單來講，我們可以歸納為兩個，第一個就是個人行為，第二個就是有計畫的來探路。"],["蔡局長明彥：是、是、對，剛剛也是跟委員這樣報告。"],["賴委員士葆：簡單就是這麼講，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，兩個樣態。"],["賴委員士葆：兩個樣態哪一個可能性高？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要由有司法警察權的單位來……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以有答案？"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有辦法替檢察官來回答這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：好，另外一個，美國要把臺灣海峽打造成無人地獄，這個可能性高不高？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛進來會場也有媒體在關注這件事，以國安局來講，對於國外的相關政府部門或機構，有對臺海情勢的研判或各種預案的推演，我們都予以尊重，它反映的是國際社會對於臺海情勢的關注程度越來越高。"],["賴委員士葆：這個我們要想到一個，那老共不會打飛彈就好了嗎？飛彈難道不可以打嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，各種劇本都有，但這還是有涉及到中共的政治目的，它政治目的是什麼，才會有各種犯臺方案的推動。"],["賴委員士葆：可是美國那麼緊張，說要把臺灣海峽變成無人地獄的話，我都很怕臺灣島變成無人地獄喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：他的意思，無人地獄應該是說會增加中共在渡海過程當中的戰爭成本。"],["賴委員士葆：他不用渡海啊！可以用飛彈，不是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：他是針對這個場景，他是針對假如說有渡海的相關犯臺方案的話……"],["賴委員士葆：只防渡海，不防飛彈，就是這個意思。"],["蔡局長明彥：各種，他只是提到其中的方案之一。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個，我們的委員、將軍、副部長陳永康公開說了，其實重點都不在……兩岸不用擔心……不用去講臺灣能撐多久，一旦打仗，48小時以內能不能恢復電力？國安局做過推演沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於那個……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，對於能源的安全跟能源的韌性，不是只有推演而已，這個部分有跨部會的……"],["賴委員士葆：48小時以內恢復能源、恢復供電、恢復醫療，有沒有可能？"],["蔡局長明彥：有跨部會的機制在協調，我們有從國安的角度提供給目的事業主管機關參考，指的是經濟部，經濟部這邊有……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我啊！到底48小時這個部分可不可能？要讓我們安心啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會全力來強化臺灣相關的能源……"],["賴委員士葆：你看，這就是一開始我跟你講的，我問你都不答啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：有些不是歸我們國安局的業管，報告委員，那些方案是由……"],["賴委員士葆：國安局要統合啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，我們是應邀來參加跨部會的協調，提供的是相關可能的樣態，還有情報的分享給事業主管機關來做相關預案的……"],["賴委員士葆：你應該有這個情報，一旦打仗，臺灣的電能不能撐48小時，應該有這個資料，怎麼沒有呢？你講沒有，我不相信欸。"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！所以我是認為應該要由經濟部來對外說明，我們不應該越俎代庖替它做這方面的陳述。"],["賴委員士葆：你已經有資料、有答案了，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們大概都有做過相關的討論。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！所以你在這裡不答，問題就是這樣，就是我剛剛跟你講的，人很帥、口才很好，講半天，不知道在講什麼，這是我對國安局長的一個評價。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們要嚴守我們的分際，我們要尊重其他主管機關的權責。"],["賴委員士葆：來立法院這裡要講實話啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛剛已經都有資料，就要講啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有做過相關的推演。"],["賴委員士葆：你還是沒講、你還是沒講啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有做過相關推演，但詳細的狀況要由主管單位來說明，因為它的數字也許不斷在變動當中，我怕我提供的也許不是最新的數字，請委員可以理解。"],["賴委員士葆：不理解啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員，國安單位其實應該要跟國人做相關的報告，因為即使是有不同的數據資料，現階段國安局應該是掌握最即時的，而這個部分，因為我們開委員會還是希望國安局可以提供相關的資料，讓國人更清楚，因為如果我們是處在危險之中，我們應該怎麼應處，這個應該也要知道。以921大地震來說，48小時要把它恢復，老實說很困難，我們歷經921大地震的時候，我們的電力是經過很多天才恢復的，所以這個部分，我們還是希望就整體國安的一個狀況、現況，還有未來的處置、作為，都應該要即時地讓全民知道，也讓立法院知道，謝謝。","接下來請羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請李坤城委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.3934687500000003,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.68346875,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.51846875,"end":13.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.277843750000002,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.442218750000002,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.129718750000002,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.344718750000002,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.141593750000002,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.47034375,"end":24.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.1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謝謝主席 賴委員好你好 這個我跟你幾次的巡打我的感覺就是你人長很帥口才很好但是講很多講了半天你才重點一代你知道嗎 就是像泥鰍一樣"},{"start":29.707,"end":37.695,"text":"你常常就是你的回答都沒有HIT THE POINT就是沒有講出來沒有答案"},{"start":38.393,"end":38.553,"text":"請問你請問你"},{"start":69.161,"end":86.172,"text":"有沒有為這個事情開國安會議?有,我剛剛也跟其他委員有報告過在事情發生之後那國安會第一時間就召開了跨部會的協調會議來釐清這個的過程是由國安會的秘書長主持的秘書長來主持?不是總統嗎?這個問題叫做笑死全世界"},{"start":93.493,"end":94.193,"text":"你看喔!他到了這個位置!"},{"start":123.294,"end":125.155,"text":"那個時間又是漲潮他到大家從雲林碼頭到大家碼頭什麼意思沿山指揮所、橫山指揮所、海軍司令部不到一個小時耶大稻埕碼頭總統這裡都不到一個小時總統府這裡很可怕耶你不覺得這事情很可怕嗎"},{"start":145.166,"end":173.014,"text":"這個很嚴肅的問題啊對,這個案例確實很特別是不是很緊張?我們的國防、海防、國防你在幹什麼呢?對,這個案例確實有引起我們的高度的關注特別是當事人他有自己稱他有解放軍的背景所以對於各種的推論我為什麼一開始會講各種可能都有也就是委員剛剛講的可能性也都在其中所以這也是後續查查重點那因為檢方已經期盼偵查了我們這部分就讓觀眾檢發就像我質詢前兩分鐘"},{"start":183.297,"end":196.861,"text":"我們在注意中方相關的資訊有時候有出現這種類似灰色地帶的襲擾我們看到中共有一些媒體會做一些訊息操作目前在注意還沒有看到大規模的訊息操作還沒有"},{"start":197.386,"end":208.523,"text":"他剛發布喔對這是官方的說法官方的說法對說個人行為他沒有介入可是我都很質疑啊我都懷疑啊他一燒幾萬塊的快艇可以開這麼久嗎開十幾個小時"},{"start":213.174,"end":240.531,"text":"有關海巡署也在針對委員的說明對,他有說明這部分就他的油料還有他的航程海巡有做了相關的足跡的推移再講一遍報告委員,這一艘船的話他攻速是從寧德出港那距離我們台灣大概就是136海浬那油料我們查的話出發時是260公升船上還有備用的油桶到淡水已經剩下133"},{"start":242.622,"end":243.262,"text":"蔡局長提醒你"},{"start":271.374,"end":275.455,"text":"是,對,剛剛也是在分析整個案情,我們認為各種可能性都有,不能夠排除。"},{"start":290.639,"end":313.433,"text":"幾個可能告訴我們不要糊弄幾個可能跟我們講一下檢方在偵辦但第一個部分有可能是有中共配合到這一陣子的揮帶的操作他變成是個案之一這是一種可能性第二種可能性是如當事人他自己的陳述的因為他對於想往台灣的自由他要來這邊投奔自由當然這是第二種可能性"},{"start":315.335,"end":339.857,"text":"因為我們本身並沒有調查權那必須要有檢方在更抽絲剝繭的來收集相關的證據那另外可能也要注意到的是我們也有相關的機證剛剛海巡署也提到了因為雷達對於它的航機都有相關的掌握那還要再配合到它自述的相關的證詞比如說它是從哪個地方出發那回溯它的數位以及海巡署的雷達回放也都要"},{"start":340.337,"end":342.839,"text":"美國要把台灣海峽打造成無人地獄,這個可能性高不高?"},{"start":368.159,"end":390.254,"text":"剛剛進來會場也有媒體在關注這件事那國安局來講對於國外的相關的政府部門或機構有對台海情勢的研判或各種預案的推演我們都予以尊重那他反映的是國際社會對於台海情勢的關注程度越來越高這個我馬上想到一個老公不會打飛彈就好了嗎?飛彈難道不可以打嗎?"},{"start":390.933,"end":392.314,"text":"可是如果這樣子美國這樣子那麼緊張說把台灣現在變成無人地獄的話我都很怕說台灣打變無人地獄喔"},{"start":410.82,"end":430.704,"text":"對,他的意思,無人地獄應該是說會增加中共在渡海過程當中的戰爭成本他不用渡海啊,飛彈啊,不是對,他是針對這個場景,他是針對假如說有渡海的相關的犯台方案的話只防渡海,不防飛彈,就這個意思沒有,各種,他只是提到其中的方案之一最後一個,我們的委員,將軍陳永康部長公開說了"},{"start":434.932,"end":456.745,"text":"其實重點都不在兩岸不用擔心不用去講台灣能撐多久一旦打戰48小時以內能不能恢復電力你國安局做過推演沒有對對於那個有沒有有能源的安全跟能源的韌性不是就退演而已這個部分48小時以內恢復人員恢復供電恢復醫療有沒有可能"},{"start":457.168,"end":465.752,"text":"有跨部會的機制在協調那我們有從國安的角度來提供給目的事業主管機關來參考指的是經濟部這個48小時可不可能啊要讓我們安心啊對我們會全力的來強化台灣的相關的對不起一開始我跟你講的啊"},{"start":473.855,"end":495.2,"text":"我問你都不答有些不是歸我國安局的業管報告委員那些方案是由你國安局統合啊沒有沒有我們是應邀來參加跨部會的協調那提供的是相關的可能樣態還有情報的分享給事業主管機關來做相關你應該有這樣的情報啊一旦打戰台灣的電能不能撐48小時應該有這個資料怎麼沒有呢"},{"start":496.041,"end":506.46,"text":"你講沒有我不相信你對阿所以我是認為說應該要由經濟部來對外說明我們不應該來越處代跑來替他做這方面的陳述你已經有答案了對不對"},{"start":507.686,"end":523.671,"text":"對,大概,我們大概都有做過相關的討論和推演。對嘛,所以你這裡不答,我的問題就是現在,就是我剛剛跟你講的,人很帥,口才很好,講幾波,不知道你在講什麼,這樣。老師,我對國安局長的一個評價。沒有,我們要守我們的憤忌啊,我們要尊重其他主管機關的權責。不是,來,立法院這裡要講實話啊。"},{"start":527.885,"end":528.806,"text":"謝謝賴委員 國安其實應該要跟國人做"}]}},{"id":"153848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153848","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81922675c246f06177925a148732a468ab6dd6f040307a1001a4ac9ba3278b278f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:17:33 - 11:28:43","影片長度":"00:11:10","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:17:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:28:43+08:00","duration":670,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":536,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時17分）謝謝主席，辛苦了。有請部長。"],["主席：不好意思，請部長。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：我先就最近我在關心的一個社會新聞事件請教，其實跟臺師大有關，也就是狼師邱姓副教授的狀況。這件事發生在2022年11月，這名邱姓老師性騷擾女學生，在2023年5月臺師大特別重啟這個調查案件，並對這位老師做出暫時停聘的處置。但這個暫時停聘的處置一直到現在，教育部有沒有針對臺師大校方所做的停聘三年處置做出比較明確的表態？其實現在在Dcard論壇上面學生蠻恐慌的，他們表示很怕狼師又要回來了！有關停聘一事，是不是請教育部先做說明？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心有關學生權益，包括性平相關的議題。師大確實對這個案例、這個老師做了決議，因為調查顯示有一定的嚴重性，所以師大做出停聘三年的處置。就教育部的立場來說，我們請師大校教評委再重新考量……"],["郭委員昱晴：重新考量的意思是？"],["鄭部長英耀：這並不是輕微的，是有嚴重性的，所以我們希望校教評會能夠再斟酌，另外做出適法性的處分。"],["郭委員昱晴：也就是說不只是停聘？有可能要完全離開校園？"],["鄭部長英耀：看是終身停聘，還是說有一個比較嚴苛的，還是怎麼樣……當然，我們尊重大學自主，但是學生的受教權益……"],["郭委員昱晴：聲音要聽到。"],["鄭部長英耀：不容被打折！"],["郭委員昱晴：所以教育部就是希望臺師大再做一個更審慎的研議就對了？好，我們希望這個狼師能夠離開校園！","接下來我們進入校園霸凌這個議題。我們可以從教育部的統計資料上看到，111年跟110年被認為的校園霸凌樣態中，除了有所謂的反擊型，還有肢體的、關係的霸凌外，我們發現另外兩種霸凌的型態有增無減，也就是言語霸凌跟網路霸凌！不管是師對生，或生對生，其實在言語霸凌跟網路霸凌的比例是增高的。現在還有另外一種狀況，我們鼓勵孩子能夠說出他們被霸凌，或鼓勵孩子說出來誰被霸凌了，在我們鼓勵他們勇敢說出來的狀態之下，其實有很多人發現有所謂的微歧視，也就是輕微的歧視，甚至被認為是理所當然的，而這也有可能發生在師對生上！像外貌、家庭狀況，甚至種族，甚至有一成的兒少會認為自己的性別氣質是跟別人不同的，這也有可能被當成生對生，或者師對生而產生所謂微歧視、微霸凌的現象。就這部分我想請教教育部，因為我們聽到有太多類似的例子發生在我們的身邊周遭。前一陣子藝人楊皓如的女兒在班上被老師說，你是恍神一號。女兒寫作文時把這部分寫出來了，寫出來之後引起很多人的關心，覺得老師這樣子對學生貼標籤的確有一些不妥。所以教育部怎麼樣協助第一線的老師來做因應，不要讓第一線的老師也成為微歧視或微霸凌的加害者。這部分教育部有沒有什麼樣的因應措施？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心。確實，對於微歧視，過去學術界歸納為關係的霸凌，即從語言上的冷漠、忽略到酸言酸語的方式。我認為我們應該落實班級輔導與教學，甚至可以有人文藝術課程或班級輔導，看怎麼樣用角色取替來培養同理心，設身處地去理解不同的角色，不同的人心裡真正的狀況，從而能夠感同身受，我相信這是有效的。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛有很多委員特別提到，包含召委也特別提到學輔法的修法，尤其我們一直都很關心的輔導人員人力不足的問題。我們知道第一線的老師必須面臨一班有二、三十個學生，而私校更可能有四、五十人，這些都有可能，所以他們的loading其實是很重的。有關校園霸凌的樣態，不管是生對生、師對生，也有少數是生對師，這個也是霸凌，所以我們不僅要同步，更要關心第一線老師的心理與責任狀態……"],["鄭部長英耀：對老師心理的支持，包括給他們許多的協助，我們會有許多的教師增能跟研習心理……"],["郭委員昱晴：就這部分，我想其實每一個人都關心，畢竟孩子都在校園裡頭，他們也許每天都在經歷這些。另外，我想請教教育部「疑似霸凌案件」。所謂的疑似，就是有通報疑似霸凌案件，但最後的成案數，即被確認數的比例其實是非常低的。但報案量，也就是被學生或被老師認定為校園霸凌的案量是很高的，但最後成案的比例相對的來講是很低的。","從這個表格當中我們會發現，既然霸凌的狀態不管是疑似案件或確認的案件，其實它都是有可能再增加，但確認數卻是逐年的下滑。那我又想要問另外一個問題，就是前一陣子我看到桃園私立高中的一段影片，是女生霸凌女生，當場就是要剪頭髮，校方處理的態度是說雙方家長已經和解，雙方已經和解，這明顯的跟被霸凌者他們家長所說出來的是完全不一樣的。校方的態度非常非常的重要，我們發現有很多霸凌的事件在校方處理的態度積極與否，決定了這孩子將來的一個狀況。因為自殺率是提高的，我們必須講很殘忍的數字，尤其是衛福部在2024年的1月特別有統計過，這三年來兒少自殺率的比例上、人數上，這三年創下了新高，這個部分其實我們是非常非常的擔憂，就校方的部分，我們怎麼樣來讓學校能夠及時的處理、適當的處理，縮短處理的速度，才能夠避免很多悲劇的發生，這個部分我想請教一下部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，我想原來疑似的部分，如果是霸凌或者攻擊，那很明確的造成傷害，大概在認定上比較不會有一些問題，但青少年在許多的一些嬉戲，當然它有模糊的界限，所以可能會造成疑似，到判定上會減少，但我也非常同意委員所說的，本來我們希望教育的現場回到人際關係的互動，他能夠回到正常的學習，能夠修復情感，我想那是我們努力的目標，但是我們現在的推動方式，只要任何一方有覺得他不願意和解，那個就立即終結，就進入到這一個……"],["郭委員昱晴：我比較想要表達的意見就是說，既然學校的霸凌有可能會導致孩子自傷或者是自殘，甚至於所謂自殺的狀況，那我想自殺的預防在校園的推廣是極為重要。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：既然是要預防為前提，可是當學校的老師，第一線老師說這沒關係啦！這是小事啦！或者是說哎呀！你怎麼連這樣都沒有辦法克服的時候，當孩子遇到事情，老師直接對他說出這樣子的話，他要怎麼求救？他會覺得他求救根本沒有用啦！所以其實這個部分，我們教育部要再努力好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們必須要來加強老師這方面的一些知能，確實當學生在傳遞訊息的時候，絕對不能輕忽，因為它真的有可能成真。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以校方的態度很重要、老師的態度很重要。"],["鄭部長英耀：老師的增能我們會來加強。"],["郭委員昱晴：今天因為時間的關係，當然還有一些題目可能來不及問完，沒有關係，我們下次還有機會，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員可以隨時把對教育的期待、指正，隨時讓我們知道。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，沒有問題，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員。","接下來我們請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":3.6590937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.35096875,"end":6.207218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.83034375,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.77284375,"end":135.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.13221875000002,"end":141.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.16971875000002,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.53659375,"end":154.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.62409375000001,"end":146.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.99471875,"end":152.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.36971875,"end":154.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.84221875,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.85909375,"end":163.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.60034375,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.83659375000002,"end":180.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.84659375,"end":181.5047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"text":"請教育部長"},{"start":540.786,"end":569.636,"text":"是的我想原來疑似的部分就如果是霸凌或者攻擊那很明確的造成傷害大概就認定上比較不會有一些問題但青少年在有許多的一些嬉戲或者當然他有模糊的界線所以他可能會有造成這一個疑似到這一個判定上他會減少但我有非常同意委員所說的如果"},{"start":570.476,"end":570.556,"text":"主席"},{"start":591.653,"end":591.673,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":622.133,"end":623.354,"text":"我們必須要來加強老師的這個側畫面的一些"},{"start":642.905,"end":645.728,"text":"委員可以隨時把這個對教育部的期待指正隨時讓我們知道沒有問題謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819f620c143cc43ac6a98b2dfa55713766cdd6f040307a1001a8561d87bf4e94c8c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:14:09 - 11:26:24","影片長度":"00:12:15","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:14:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:26:24+08:00","duration":735,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":678,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時14分）謝謝，麻煩請次長及秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長、秘書長。我在這邊先簡單的跟兩位說明一下，因為剛剛吳思瑤委員有請教兩位一個問題嘛，他說我們這一次的國會改革法案是粗糙的立法，因為到底要不要設立調查官都還沒有想清楚就立法了。剛剛兩位也沒有回答吳委員嘛，吳委員一直說是因為有藐視國會罪，所以你們不敢回答。我先跟兩位報告一下，藐視國會罪這個東西目前還在行政院覆議中啦，並不是現行條文，還沒上路，所以講這個是沒有意義的，這是恐嚇兩位而已，所以沒有這個問題。","第二個就是有關我們國家的立法，我國是成文法國家嘛，本來就是如此啊，就是法律通過之後，立法院有這個權限之後，才會去思考接下來怎麼運作嘛，我想任何一個條文，包括供行政機關所使用的條文也都是這樣啊，都是先一個制度、一個權利通過之後，再由行政機關去就施行的細項去思考怎麼樣去做立法的動作，所以這不就是一個立法的常態嗎？為什麼這個東西還可以反過來推論說是國會改革法案沒有思考到調查官要不要設立，所以這個叫做粗糙的立法，我覺得這應該是吳思瑤委員又搞不清楚法律了，我在這邊幫大家再上一課啦。所以任何法制的通過，絕對是一個大範圍的概念先過了之後，到行政機關或到相關機關再去做細項的部分，再做法律上的補充、再立法，所以並沒有說國會五法沒有思考到要由調查官還是由立法委員自己去聘用有偵查能力的助理，沒有去思考到這個就叫粗糙立法，我想講這個，只能說是對法制真的是很不熟悉，這個部分我就先說明一下。","再來，我想請教一下司法院，我有看了你們這次的報告，你們這次的報告有提到「將運用科技之新興偵查手段規範於刑事訴訟法中，未必與我國法律體系相符。」我想請教一下秘書長，到底這次我提的草案或者是其他委員提的草案裡面，有哪一條是跟現行的刑事訴訟法相衝突？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個最主要就是說，現在相對性的，假如說專法，那當然專法處理啦；假如說要到刑事訴訟法的話，可能是要就整個刑事訴訟法的體系做一個盤整啦，假如是裡面的一個章節，因為這裡面也涉及到，我們在書面說明有提到，比如像刑事訴訟法第二百二十八條第一項賦予檢察官抽象的偵查犯罪權限，第二百三十條第二項、第二百三十一條第二項賦予司法警察官、司法警察調查犯罪的權限，所以這些假如要在刑事訴訟法以專章來處理，這些條文要看怎麼去做一個盤整，畢竟是在同一個刑事訴訟法的架構之下，所以是怎麼來盤整的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長，你還是沒有回答我的問題啦！其實我的問題很簡單，就是因為貴院這次的報告裡面直接點名說我們提的這些東西，要求設在刑事訴訟法裡面，這個未必與我國法律體系相符。所以我一直很想就教，貴院這麼多法律人才，對於我提的草案或是其他立委提的草案，到底是哪一條跟我國刑事訴訟法體例衝突、不相符合？如果你只是講一個概念性的東西，那等於沒有回答一樣啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我請廳長來說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，請廳長。"],["李廳長釱任：謝謝委員指教，有關於實質的衝突倒是沒有，但是有些用語必須做一些調整，包括事後的救濟程序也有一些要做相關的調整，像剛才提到第四百十六條的部分，這個準抗告程序，基本上就刑訴來講，對警察或司法警察的干預處分目前是沒有救濟的，但是只有就部分條文有救濟，所以大概有一些相衝突，包括章節的名稱部分恐怕也有一些文字要做必要的調整。"],["吳委員宗憲：調整跟衝突這兩個東西差蠻遠的啦！因為我看過你們那個報告，我覺得這個報告寫得很奇怪。好，沒關係，我想問你們可能也講不出來真正衝突的條文是哪個，我就不再追問下去了。","我個人在這邊跟各位說明一下，對於專法的部分，內容我沒有太多意見，但是為什麼我一直主張要定在刑事訴訟法？因為我認為這個跟刑事訴訟法裡面搜索、羈押、扣押這些東西都是相同概念的東西，只是它是針對科技偵查或者是數位的資料，只是差在這個東西的不同，所以不管是M化車、GPS或是熱顯像儀這些，其實這跟刑事訴訟法並沒有衝突，所以我還是覺得這個就是偵查中的強制處分，本來就應該顯現在刑事訴訟法中，這也跟德國的體例是一樣的。再來，這些東西既然都要法官授權，為什麼你卻要另立專法來做這件事，而不是在最基本的刑事訴訟法中？還有一個，就是事後的救濟，以及這些得到的資料可不可以當作證據，這些證據能力的認定其實也都是在法官，所以我還是沒有辦法理解司法院這麼的認同行政院說要訂定在專法裡面的原因是什麼，我到現在還是覺得有一點不可思議！","我再請教一下法務部，請問一下，為什麼要訂專法？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，其實我剛才講，這定在刑事訴訟法也沒有問題，但是基本上它是一個政策上的選擇，就法務部在政策上訂一個專法，這樣未來我們整個政策的實施，或是修法方面也好，或是整個擴充也好，比較容易，所以我們是比較堅持設在一個專法裡面。"],["吳委員宗憲：我認為如果用一般嚇阻理論來看，我們一般嚇阻理論有提到迅速性、嚴重性及確定性，其實這個跟是否立專法沒有絕對的關聯性，當年通保法要立專法也許有它的目的，譬如它把一些民事、刑事責任，或是電信事業要怎麼協助，訂在裡面，但是這一次這一部專法，你們所謂的科偵專法，裡面沒有這些東西，甚至也沒有規範得這麼詳細，但卻要另外用專法來處理，我覺得這個跟我所理解的法律體例真的有很大的差距，所以我想要跟各位說，我還是不認同，雖然我認同每一個科技偵查都應該要趕快設立。而且我很不滿的是106年的判決就已經有說明GPS追蹤器使用上的證據能力問題，111年也提到M化車使用上面的證據能力問題，但是這麼久以來司法院卻完全不去就刑事訴訟法修正，導致這麼長的時間所有的科技偵查都出了問題。這個不是只有出在詐欺案件，這個出在所有的犯罪你可不可以去用，結果你今天用打詐幾法這樣出來、用這個名詞想要趕快讓這個專法過，如果我們今天是一個法制國家，這個東西能用不能用其實是針對所有的犯罪，或是所有的特定犯罪，而不能好像是為了打詐，所以搞了這個東西出來，這一點我是沒有辦法理解。","我認為定在刑事訴訟法才是正本清源之道，因為有沒有證據能力或是證明力到什麼地方，這是法院法官的認定，這不是檢察官有權力可以說了就算，雖然科技一直在變，但是並不是科技在變，所以我要另立專法，我覺得這個邏輯是有問題的，應該是科技一直在變，所以我們要有原則性的認定，放在刑事訴訟法裡面，這樣子才能夠保護人權，這樣子才合理！所以我還是這樣建議，如果可以的話，我們還是把它定在刑事訴訟法裡面。","我們在這一套對於科技偵查上面的不但要做到事前的法官保留（門檻的設計）、事中的程序監督，還有事後的司法救濟，以及相關的是不是要通知，譬如一些網路資料，你之後是不是要通知當事人，讓他有救濟的管道，我覺得這個都是我比較在乎的部分。","這個部分再麻煩司法院及法務部能夠理解一下我們的想法，還有司法院及法務部的報告，這個報告看一看，我覺得都有一些怪怪的地方。我現在有一個問題，再麻煩法務部能夠儘快給我一個答復，就是是不是請法務部要趕快會同司法院、警政署，還有個資委員會的籌備處，就科技偵查資料管理的內稽及內控機制有一個完整的配套，希望兩個月內能夠給我，好不好？我想這個才是首要的，因為我們已經講了很多次了，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，兩個月，還是三個月？這要研析，因為涉及到各種內稽、內控，而且部會很多，是不是三個月的時間？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就三個月內麻煩把這個報告能夠提交。"],["主席：三個月內，就送交吳宗憲委員，還有我們司法委員會的每位委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就謝謝兩位。","最後，我要跟你們兩位說明一下，我覺得對於數位的監控，如果沒有完整的數位個資保存機制以及控管機制，沒有人會喜歡這個，尤其是最近王義川事件之後，很多人都覺得我的資料是不是被監控，甚至在平常開玩笑的時候，像我跟朋友在用通訊軟體的時候，他說，我們現在是不是群組，還有一個王義川也在看我們在講什麼，當然這是一個笑話，我也不相信有這個事，但是是不是我們真的要有充足的監督機制、相關資料的銷毀機制、內控機制？這樣我們對國人才能夠有一個交代。謝謝兩位！"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：接下來請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","下一位請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員。","下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2.14034375,"end":5.970968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.004093750000003,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.337218750000002,"end":12.56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那我們麻煩次長還有秘書長委員好我這邊先簡單的跟兩位說明一下因為剛剛那個吳思耀委員有請教兩位一個問題嘛他說有關我們這一次國會改革法案這是粗糙的立法因為呢到底要不要設立調查官這個都還沒有想清楚然後就立法那我想說"},{"start":32.416,"end":55.058,"text":"因為剛剛兩位也沒有回答胡委員嘛那胡委員一直說因為有這個藐視國會罪所以你們不敢回答那我先跟兩位報告一下藐視國會這個東西目前還在行政院復議中並不是一個現行的條文還沒上路所以根本講這個是沒有意義的這是恐嚇兩位而已所以沒有這個問題第二個就是有關我們國家的立法"},{"start":55.899,"end":75.855,"text":"我國是成文法國家嘛那本來就是如此啊就是法律通過之後有了這個立法院有這個權限之後才會去思考接下來怎麼運作嗎我想任何一個條文包括行政包括那個公行政機關所使用的條文也都是這樣啊都是先一個"},{"start":76.616,"end":88.874,"text":"制度一個權利通過之後再由行政機關去就施行的細項去思考怎麼樣去做立法的動作所以這不就是一個立法的常態嗎為什麼這個東西還可以反過來推論說是"},{"start":92.639,"end":119.776,"text":"國會改革法案沒有思考到調查官要不要設立所以這個叫做初操的立法我覺得這是應該是胡志耀委員又搞不清楚法律了我在這邊再幫大家再上一課啦所以任何的法制的通過絕對是一個大範圍的概念先過了之後到行政機關或到相關的機關再去做細項的部分再做法律上的補充再立法所以並沒有說"},{"start":122.317,"end":149.786,"text":"這個國會無法這個沒有去思考到要由調查官還是由立法委員自己去聘用有偵查能力的助理沒有去思考到這個就叫出操立法我想這講這個只能說對法治真的是很不熟悉我想這個部分我就先說明一下再來我想請教一下司法院因為司法院我有看了你們這一次的那個報告"},{"start":151.633,"end":178.458,"text":"那你們這次報告有提到說將運用科技新興偵查手段規範於刑事訴訟法中未必與我國法律體系相符那我想請教一下秘書長那到底這次我提的草案或者是我們其他委員提的草案裡面有哪一條是跟現行的刑事訴訟法有相衝突這個最主要就是說假"},{"start":180.368,"end":199.915,"text":"現在相對性的假如說專法那當然專法處理那假如說要到刑事訴訟法的話那他就可能就是說要就整個刑事訴訟法他整個體系就要做一個盤整做一個盤整他假如是在裡面一個章節"},{"start":201.916,"end":225.037,"text":"因為這裡面也涉及到就是說我們在書面說明有提到比如說像刑事訴訟法228條第一項有賦予檢察官抽象的偵查犯罪前線那230條第二項、231條第二項賦予這個司法警察官還有司法警察調查犯罪的前線所以像這些"},{"start":226.118,"end":243.613,"text":"例如說要在要把他在刑事訴訟法專章來處理那可能就這些條文可能要做一個看怎麼去一個盤整畢竟他在同一個刑事訴訟法的架構之下"},{"start":244.574,"end":261.283,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":262.063,"end":279.068,"text":"所以我一直很想就教就是說貴院這麼多法律人才那到底我提的法案我提的草案或是其他立委提的草案到底是哪一條跟我國刑事訴訟法體力衝突不相符合如果你只是講一個那種概念性的東西那等於沒有回答一樣啊"},{"start":280.089,"end":301.196,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":302.316,"end":319.321,"text":"警察或是司法警察的干預處分是目前來講是沒有救濟的但是只有部分條文有救濟所以大概有一些相衝突包括章節的名稱的部分恐怕也會跟一些文字上也是要做必要的調整上這個調整跟衝突這兩個東西差蠻遠的所以"},{"start":322.022,"end":323.104,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":335.731,"end":360.416,"text":"我個人在這邊跟各位說明一下我認為說為什麼我一直接我對於專法的部分內容我沒有太多意見但是為什麼我一直主張定在刑事訴訟法因為我認為說這個跟刑事訴訟法裡面搜索羈押、扣押這些東西都是相同概念的東西只是它是針對科技偵查或者是數位的資料只是差在這個東西的不同"},{"start":360.976,"end":376.291,"text":"所以不管是M化車、GPS或是熱血像這些其實這跟刑事訴訟法並沒有衝突啦所以我還是覺得說這個就是偵查中的強制處分本來就應該顯現在刑事訴訟法中這也跟德國的體力是一樣的"},{"start":377.452,"end":403.237,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":404.617,"end":416.868,"text":"行政院說要訂定在專法裡面的原因是什麼?我到現在還是覺得有一點不可思議我再請教一下法務部請問一下為什麼要訂專法?"},{"start":423.024,"end":445.454,"text":"各位報告我各位報告其實我跟你講這不是說定在刑訴法也沒有問題但是基本上他是一個政策上的選擇就法務部在政策上他定一個專法就我們未來的整個政策實施會他修法方面也好或這個整個擴充也好比較容易所以我們是比較堅持說設在一個專法裡面我認為就是說如果你用那個一般賀足理論來看"},{"start":446.855,"end":465.774,"text":"其實我們一般賀族理論有提到迅速性、嚴重性跟確定性啦其實這個跟是否立專法沒有絕對的關聯性當年通保法要立專法也許有它的目的譬如說它把一些民事、刑事責任或是電信事業要怎麼協助把它定在裡面但是呢這一次這一部的專法"},{"start":466.775,"end":491.822,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":495.023,"end":521.36,"text":"追蹤器的使用上的證據能力的問題一百一十一年也提到M化車使用上面的證據能力問題但是這麼久以來司法院卻完全不去就刑事訴訟法去修正所以導致這麼長的時間對於所有的犯罪偵查都出了問題這個不是只有出在詐欺案件這個出在所有的犯罪你可不可以去用就你今天用個打詐"},{"start":522.813,"end":547.149,"text":"怎麼集法這樣出來用這個名詞想要趕快把這個專法過我覺得如果我們今天是一個法治國家這東西能用不能用其實是針對所有的犯罪或是所有的特定犯罪而不能說好像我就是為了詐欺所以我搞了一個這個東西出來這一點我是沒有辦法理解所以我們再往下看"},{"start":548.432,"end":575.843,"text":"所以我認為說定在刑事訴訟法還是正本清源之道因為有沒有證據能力或是證明力到什麼地方這是法院法官的認定這不是檢察官的有權利可以說了就算那所以說因為科技一直在變並不是說科技在變所以我要另立專法我覺得這個邏輯是有問題的應該是說科技一直在變所以我們要一個原則性的認定"},{"start":577.043,"end":592.753,"text":"放在刑事訴訟法裡面這樣子才能夠保護人權這樣子才合理所以我認為說我還是這樣建議如果可以的話我們還是就是說把它定在刑事訴訟法裡面"},{"start":593.55,"end":620.649,"text":"那我們在這一套對於這個科技偵查上面我們不但要做到事前的那個法官保留門檻的設計事中的程序監督還有事後的司法救濟以及相關是不是要通知比如說一些網路資料你之後是不是要通知當事人讓他有救濟的管道我覺得這都是我比較在乎的部分那這個部分再麻煩那個"},{"start":622.895,"end":642.796,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":644.102,"end":667.084,"text":"是不是法務部要趕快會同司法院、警政署還有那個各支委員會的籌備處就科技偵查資料管理的內機跟內控的機制有一個完整的配套然後希望說兩個月內能夠給我好不好我想說這個才是首要的嘛因為我們已經講了很多次了"},{"start":667.841,"end":673.085,"text":"三個月內麻煩把這個報告提交三個月內就送交吳宗憲委員還有我們司法委員會的每位委員"},{"start":695.051,"end":715.557,"text":"謝謝兩位最後我要跟你們兩位說明一下我覺得對於數位的監控如果沒有一個完整的數位各自的保存機制以及控管的機制沒有人會喜歡這個尤其是最近王逸川事件之後很多人都覺得我的資料是被監控甚至在平常開玩笑的時候"},{"start":716.502,"end":736.18,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"}]}},{"id":"153846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153846","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8191bb73e5e6aea2a9c0fec08313b105ec0dd6f040307a1001a64a5fa53d23552a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:17:58 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範法規在刺激民間的投資再請教主委有沒有看過由人工智慧科技基金會進行的台灣產業AI化的調查"},{"start":77.062,"end":103.35,"text":"這份沒有看過好 沒有看過那這個調查裡面主要我細節就不講了主要就是說開始將AI導入公司的運營流程裡面這個報導裡面說有將近54%都開始已經導入了這就證明了實務界總是跑在這個政府的政策之前那本席想請教的就是說行政體系AI化有沒有做過相關的調查"},{"start":112.291,"end":120.862,"text":"那有沒有想過一些公部門在哪些方面可以很迅速的導入AI優化這個行政流程呢?"},{"start":122.458,"end":141.406,"text":"這個部分就我了解就是各單位都有用到CHAP GDP然後去主要去做資料的搜尋報表的整理那本席舉幾個例子給這個國發會主委建議譬如這個交通管控系統可以透過AI適度的來減少員警的工作量"},{"start":142.026,"end":157.334,"text":"然後減少用路人的行車時間包括各級政府的1999通報系統也可以透過AI的運用來提高服務品質那包括各級司法單位的意識系統都可以"},{"start":157.694,"end":172.875,"text":"用AI來協助書記官做筆錄甚至可以更公正客觀這都仰賴國發會去制定一套進程讓各級政府可以去遵守請問主委你覺得本席所提的這個您同意嗎"},{"start":174.057,"end":200.235,"text":"這一點我同意也順便跟委員報告這些我過去在一些地方政府也規劃過類似的專案譬如說救護車經過的時候透過5G沿路就可以亮綠燈然後車上跟計程車連線就可以開始控制那有些醫院現在也開始導入這樣的系統所以希望未來提AI化的部分絕對不要忘記增列我們行政機關其實也迫切需要導入一些AI的這個系統"},{"start":201.996,"end":204.559,"text":"那我可不可以請經濟部長也一起上來請過部長部長就是說今天我們討論AI的議題那AI的伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍以上大家都知道包括說這個GPT每天"},{"start":225.216,"end":228.418,"text":"在美國是要耗56萬度電大約是我們台灣這個每日4萬戶的平均用電量那這樣子來說我們的這個電力問題我也想部長跟主委必須要重視因為現在我們的半導體主要競爭對手就是韓國"},{"start":246.829,"end":248.311,"text":"韓國他現在一直在操作說我們台灣有能源問題所以我們政府一定要不要再粉飾太平了你看這麼多的韓國集體的在抹黑我們"},{"start":261.766,"end":267.51,"text":"不要說抹黑啦搞不好我們真的有這個問題我們不能不再去重視這個問題因為不只韓國連美國的財經媒體CNBC都報導身為全球半導體的這個重鎮台灣正面臨電力短缺的疑慮你看美國寫了這麼一大篇"},{"start":283.322,"end":305.807,"text":"那比爾蓋茲投資的泰拉能源也在昨天宣布要蓋這個新的核電廠那NVIDIA的黃仁勳執行長他在離開台灣之前他也說他說台灣的能源問題將會是他設廠的一大挑戰那你們都說不用擔心可不可以告訴我為什麼我們不用擔心能源問題報告委員我們現在"},{"start":310.165,"end":317.377,"text":"不用擔心的意思就是我的供電的容量跟需求我的供電還是大於需求的"},{"start":319.025,"end":342.878,"text":"就是您自己說的你們要推動這個AI未來會增加每年3%以上的用電那這個核電減少之後核三廠退役之後我們還會有個7%的電力缺口加起來有10%的電力缺口你現在告訴我不用擔心的理由到底是什麼我們為什麼可以不用擔心我們在之前就已經把這個都考慮進去了"},{"start":344.929,"end":345.37,"text":"我們的基礎是在這幾年會一直上來"},{"start":362.028,"end":365.931,"text":"怎麼上來?有哪些基礎?可不可以一一跟我說明說有哪些發電的基礎是今年、明年會跟上可以補正10%的缺口之外還可以再支持AI產業來推動?報告委員,我可以請台電的總經理跟您"},{"start":380.023,"end":397.275,"text":"我想要部長說因為部長本來包括主委都告訴我說核能是選項之一結果最近你們兩位都轉向了我想要知道說兩位是不是有受到上級單位指示說不要再講你們支持核能了我們過去個人的這個"},{"start":405.137,"end":410.701,"text":"言論我想這個是有時間的差還差不到幾天就變化這麼大你告訴我是因為時間差時空背景不一樣本席不能接受所以部長跟主委我真心希望你們不要違背你們自己的初衷你們是產業界的希望這是未來我們台灣放眼50年產業界的希望是決定在你們現在"},{"start":434.5,"end":455.177,"text":"所以你們一定要拿出大刀闊斧的精神講出實話讓我們台灣面對能源有問題能源供應有問題的真相你不要在這裡告訴我說沒有問題我們都準備好了你們準備好的東西在哪裡在哪裡到目前為止從早上到現在沒有一個講得出說我們能源問題有解決的方法在哪裡"},{"start":462.523,"end":480.054,"text":"我們還是有發電的基礎會在未來的45年不斷的上來所以我們到2030年的時候我們會有產生900多萬千瓦的電然後我們實際需求只有700"},{"start":481.315,"end":484.457,"text":"那部長我問你喔就在你上任之前你知道桃園兩個月跳多少次電嗎?報告委員桃園跳了50幾次欸50幾次欸而且還在全台灣就只有備載容量3%就要全台大停電的狀態之下了所以部長還有主委我真心希望你們要認真的去考慮這個問題而且呢是不是可以"},{"start":509.352,"end":528.14,"text":"向本委員會提出說你們具體的因應方式是什麼你們具體的告訴我們說不用擔心缺電的理由是什麼而不是在告訴我說不用擔心我們絕對沒有問題這樣子的話我不只是本委員會沒有辦法相信甚至整個國際我們的競爭對手韓國還有"},{"start":532.082,"end":535.887,"text":"這個美國他們要不要投資他們都在觀察我們台灣的這個能源的這個政策那是不是可以有一些具體的說法說服本委員會也說服這些外媒讓他們知道說我們台灣的確是才有競爭力的"},{"start":549.502,"end":568.742,"text":"包括委員我們會把這個未來每一年增加多少然後這個會降多少然後從哪裡增加從什麼機組增加對包括說這些機組到底它的它蓋到什麼程度它會不會有其他的原因去影響它供電的這個程度呢這個我們會提供這個我們會提供好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153845","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153845","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8196c1e0bce9eddfa9f182e407f268492bcdd6f040307a1001a0b94474edbfc61895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:15:25 - 11:26:24","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:15:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:26:24+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時15分）主席謝謝，請我們主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委，您看詐騙實在是非常非常的猖獗，現在一年有這麼多詐騙的金流在移動，看我們金門的例子，我們金門詐騙多到連警察的帳戶都遭殃。我們金門縣警察局有一位張姓警員，他名下的帳戶被匯入多筆款項，警方及銀行查出來包括詐騙案被害人匯入的金額，他的帳戶就被列為警示帳戶，他當然否認涉案，說是金融卡遺失被人家盜用，不管他是參與者或者他也是被害者，就是遺失金融卡，這個表示詐騙集團已經猖獗到連金門警察的帳戶都有牽扯。當然，他現在被提出涉犯詐欺還有洗錢防制移送到地檢署，我要講的是，連警察的帳戶都被詐騙集團不管是拿去使用還是撿到金融卡，可見詐騙真的太猖獗了。我上次也問過您，您好像沒有被詐騙過，但也有接過詐騙電話……"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：只是沒有被騙到啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：我身旁好多人都被詐騙過，而且都算是受過一定教育的，很多種手法，不管是什麼ETC轉帳或者是買一個貨到付款的東西啦，我身邊好多好多人都這樣，我也接過很多詐騙電話。我有時候接到電話也會懷疑，那天有銀行打來，我也開始懷疑銀行怎麼會有資訊，他是不是詐騙集團？我還問他是不是詐騙集團？因為我們沒有辦法判斷，你知道嗎？雖然現在破案率很高，但不代表打詐成功喔！因為抓到的都是人頭戶嘛，而且都是車手啦，大家都知道，抓到都是車手，就是很下游、下游、下游，所以詐騙集團沒有消失，他們還越做越昌盛，是一個非常昌盛的產業。然後財物的損失也越來越多，今年抓了幾萬個人頭戶，明年、後年還有，而且對被害人來講是很多財物都追不回來，那你們的作為呢？","我們今天討論你們作為的時候，我看到你們的報告有講去年9月人頭戶專案金檢發現國銀有9大缺失，你看這9大缺失：頻繁開戶、公會彙整的共通性異常態樣、監控機制參數有問題、沒有辦法即時偵測到異常交易、警示的帳戶比對沒有建立、沒有即時通知聯徵中心、久未往來的客戶、調高網路轉帳的限額，還有客戶的虛擬帳號被警示，沒有連結起來做暫停交易或進行調查。這9大的缺失，你們具體做了哪些改善？有什麼具體成效嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，金管會過去真的非常努力在做，但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅，剛才委員指正的，我們現在有十大的作法啦，簡單跟委員講一下，比如說第一個，我們會強化臨櫃關懷，其實我們在過去……"],["陳委員玉珍：臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦！我去過銀行，被關懷過，關懷的是無微不至，這一點做得很好，下一個呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：下一個就是剛才委員講的帳戶管理，這是我們的重中之重，剛剛提到警示帳戶、第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶，還有未來的灰名單，以及境內、境外的管控名單，這些我們都不斷的在加強管理，帳戶管理是一個阻詐非常重要的點。","再來，針對新興的支付工具，比如說第三方支付跟電支還有信用卡，我們也開始做很多防堵，我們還進行檢查，如果未來打詐四法通過的話，我們還要在這邊來強化，當然這個沒有止境……"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我們真的非常努力在做這件事。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，金管會真的是扮演非常重要的角色，因為最後都是金流的問題，如果詐騙集團拿不到錢，至少被害者的財產、財物的損失會降低……"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是騙到用不到。"],["陳委員玉珍：很重要的，像我們今天討論的虛擬貨幣，我看你們的報告裡面說，個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢聲明，就詐騙集團會把錢轉換成虛擬貨幣，我們知道現在你們當然有嚴格要求做KYC，掌控人頭帳戶，所以詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商進行金錢的轉移，現在你們說個人幣商沒有做洗錢的聲明，因此自屬違法，但是這有違反虛擬通貨辦法、VASP原則嗎？因為VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人幣商。有違反公司法嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現階段的話，我剛剛講的，刑責部分要等到我們洗錢防制法……"],["陳委員玉珍：那個是刑責，我知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，他沒有聲明去做這件事情是有罰則的。"],["陳委員玉珍：你說什麼？個人幣商啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在如果說……"],["陳委員玉珍：誰可以罰他？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們就有罰過。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們也可以罰他就對了，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是。"],["陳委員玉珍：個人幣商的部分是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：他有違反你們VASP的原則嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗防法裡面，對。"],["陳委員玉珍：洗防法是你們這邊罰的嗎？不是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗防法裡面規定的子法，這一塊是由我們來主政，因為虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制主政單位是金管會。"],["陳委員玉珍：他沒有變成公司組織，你們也可以就對了，是不是？也歸在金管會這邊可以處罰的，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我確認一下，因為我們看到你們列管的是大型平臺的幣商，你們可以做行政管制嘛……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果說他已經做了洗防登記……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你說大型平臺如果有做登記，但個人幣商不用你們許可，那也是要做登記嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在要……"],["陳委員玉珍：現在個人幣商也要做登記？"],["彭主任委員金隆：未來我們為了強化管理，如果沒有登記而執行這個業務會有刑責。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是刑責，我知道有刑責，但刑責比較慢，你知道，就等於是在中間，刑責不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：刑責是事後的刑事處分，刑責的要求比較不同所以等於是在這個部分，你看我的簡報裡頭，關於個人幣商，你們沒有許可，你們做的是刑責，做刑責的話，最後你們就沒有辦法管，都變成司法去管、法務部去管了，對不對？進入司法就很冗長，最後很多受害者的金錢事實上也都是拿不到的，您瞭解我在說什麼嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我理解委員關切的點……"],["陳委員玉珍：你可以管的是大型平臺幣商，對不對？這個你們列管，你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分，這是管理得到的，可以比較及時管到，因為他……"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在已經做……"],["陳委員玉珍：向你們登記嘛……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你剛才說個人幣商也要向你們登記是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，向你們登記，但你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，我們沒辦法用刑責的方式……"],["陳委員玉珍：這部分你們沒辦法用刑責，因為刑責也不歸你們這邊……"],["彭主任委員金隆：還要立法、還要立法……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這部分你們是不是應該也要讓個人幣商納管？不然這會變成一個漏洞，詐騙集團就把錢轉到個人幣商的手上，你就切不掉，最後當然就用刑責，用刑責的話，被害者去報警，報警後就進入司法，司法程序這麼冗長，等到查到的時候，那個錢早就不知道流到何方了，你瞭解嗎？這會變成法律上的漏洞。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是。我們對帳流跟幣流也有一些管控措施，剛才我們提到未來打詐四法通過的話，這一塊我們可以做一些金流的攔截……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這個如果通過，裡頭也有包括個人幣商的部分，你們也會做……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，也是納管。"],["陳委員玉珍：也是納管，那也會有行政的處罰嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：行政處罰是有，還有刑責。"],["陳委員玉珍：個人的部分喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：都有。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是，公司跟個人的部分……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然的話，我剛剛說到的那個情況就很嚴重。","還有一點，比如說超商現在都有貨到付款嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：關於貨到付款，有時候那個貨也不知道是誰的，人家就莫名其妙去領了，領了就付款，付款以後，錢剛付的時候應該還在超商的手上，就是超商的帳戶，還不會一下就流到出貨人，也就是詐騙集團手上，也有詐騙集團會用一些貨到付款來詐騙。針對這個金流，法務部知不知道，相關法律可以規定，比如說他們用超商平臺在詐騙，有人會用超商平臺詐騙，詐騙了之後，民眾去超商付款可能刷這個、付那個，以後這個金流時間是不是也可以控管住，至少讓他發現後，可以阻住？比如說，我拿了一個東西回來發現這個東西不是我訂的、被詐騙了，然後趕快回去跟超商講，可能在24小時還是多久，可以讓金流從這裡阻住，因為超商是很方便的地方，有時候詐騙集團就用這個漏洞，用它的便利性讓很多人被詐騙，像是ETC要付款就去超商刷，這個金流在這裡是不是可以有一個什麼機制把它堵住？金管會，您聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：聽懂、聽懂。主要是我們剛剛在報告時講，打詐四法裡面有一個能夠更及時阻斷金流的作法，我們現在希望能夠有一個更有效的法源，當然整個……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們會支持你的打詐四法，我的意思是說，從金流的務實面來講，剛才有說，比如3,000塊轉帳要24小時，因為超商有很多人在那邊刷卡或者是付錢，有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙，是不是在這個部分，在各種平臺，畢竟超商也是一個平臺，在這個金流要做到相關的管控，這樣應該可以防止錢被流到詐騙集團，因為我發現好多人跟我陳情，他們都是去超商做很多這種事情，這部分你們是不是也來看一下，如果沒有相關規定或是只要行政手段來做的話，法務部或是金管會這邊是不是來做一個規定，我想這也可以有效阻絕很多人被騙，也就是金流流到詐騙集團手上。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，剛剛提到的這些都在我們未來規定的範圍之內。"],["陳委員玉珍：有喔！好，麻煩你們，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ VASP ）淪為詐騙工\n具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":6.156593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.062843750000003,"end":12.434093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.805343750000002,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.26846875,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.21284375,"end":25.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.47409375,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.23721875,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.777218750000003,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.31159375,"end":43.838468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.12534375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.71596875,"end":45.002843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.432218750000004,"end":58.080968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.43534375,"end":61.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.73846875,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.42034375,"end":76.47471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.79534375,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.85409375,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.15284375,"end":84.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":86.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.59346875,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.35284375,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.97096875000001,"end":124.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.00721875,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.63159375000001,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.41534375,"end":136.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.25846875000002,"end":142.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.37159375000002,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.35034375,"end":149.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.96534375000002,"end":153.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.99846875,"end":183.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.91784375,"end":187.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.88346875000002,"end":188.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.82846875,"end":193.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.94159375,"end":197.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":220.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.27534375000002,"end":224.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.38034375,"end":221.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.14784375000002,"end":262.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.70721875000004,"end":265.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.34409375,"end":305.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.75721875,"end":267.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.65846875,"end":279.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.60346875000005,"end":315.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.55534375,"end":321.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.93846875,"end":322.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.78221875,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.71409375,"end":328.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.80159375,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.85159375,"end":338.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.44221875,"end":339.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.75409375000004,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.49221875,"end":346.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.45784375,"end":362.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.14034375,"end":353.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.89846875,"end":367.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.11284375,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.12971875000005,"end":375.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.16346875000005,"end":367.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.31096875000003,"end":368.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.47971875,"end":368.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.76971875000004,"end":379.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.67221875,"end":386.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.56971875000005,"end":386.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.78909375,"end":387.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.22346875000005,"end":388.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.24034375,"end":394.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.42096875000004,"end":393.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.429093750000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start":189.323,"end":213.063,"text":"連結起來做暫停交易進行調查那這個九大的缺失你們的具體的做了哪些改善有什麼具體成效嗎謝謝委員這個是我們金管會在過去我們真的非常努力在做但是努力並不代表就能夠把它消滅但是我們剛才委員指正了我們現在有十大的做法簡單跟委員講一下"},{"start":213.743,"end":243.123,"text":"比如第一個我們會強化那個臨櫃關懷其實我們在過去臨櫃關懷這個做很多啦我去過銀行有這邊關懷過關懷這是無微不至這一點是做得很好下一點呢對 下一個就我們剛才委員講的就是帳戶的管理這是我們的重中之重剛剛提到就剛才那個警示帳戶第二類帳戶還有虛擬帳戶還有就是未來我們的揮名單還有境內境外的管控名單這些我們都不斷地在加強這樣的管理所以我們帳戶管理是很重要我們主柵一個非常重要的點"},{"start":245.184,"end":258.676,"text":"針對新興的支付工具、第三方支付跟電資還有信用卡的部分我們也開始做很多的防堵我們還進行檢查我們還有做比如說未來打詐事法裡面如果通過的話我們還要這邊來強化所以當然這個沒有止境"},{"start":264.982,"end":275.734,"text":"金管會真的是非常非常重要的角色因為最後都是金流的問題嘛如果詐騙者拿不到錢的話那他可能這個手段的話或是各方面的話就是至少被害者的財產財務的損失"},{"start":278.657,"end":291.687,"text":"會降低那很重要像我們今天討論這個虛擬貨幣的部分對不對你們說你們這個我看你們這個報告裡面說那個個人幣商如果沒有做洗錢生命那個沒有做這個就詐騙集團他會把這個錢轉換成這個虛擬貨幣這個我們知道現在都慢慢的你們當然有嚴格要求做這個KYC掌控這個人頭賬戶那現在詐騙集團都把錢轉給個人幣商那再進行這個金錢的轉移那現在"},{"start":305.678,"end":332.266,"text":"你們說個人避傷沒有做洗錢聲明的這個職業聲明因此自屬違法但是這個有違反這個就是虛擬通貨辦法嗎?因為你這個VASP裡頭沒有定義什麼是個人避傷嗎?有違反公司法嗎?現在的話就是我們現階段剛剛講那個刑責部分要等到那個是刑責我知道現在的話我們是他沒有聲明去做這件事情我們現在是有罰則的"},{"start":333.851,"end":334.795,"text":"你說什麼?個人避傷啊?誰可以罰他?"},{"start":340.816,"end":366.314,"text":"我們就罰過 對你們也可以罰他就對了 是不是個人避傷的部分 是不是對他有違反你們的VASP的原則嗎洗房辦法裡面 對洗房法是你們這邊罰的嗎洗房法裡面規定的執法這一塊是由我們來主政因為洗錢 這個虛擬資產這一塊業者的洗錢防制的主政單位是他沒有變成公司組織你們有可以就對了 是不是也歸在今晚會這邊可以處罰 是嗎"},{"start":367.014,"end":392.984,"text":"是的我確認一下因為這個大型的這個我們看到大型的這個平台的這個弊商你們是列管的嘛你們可以做行政管制嘛對 如果說他已經做我們的洗房登記的那些業者如果你說大型的那個平台的話如果有做登記那個人弊商不用你們許可嗎那要做登記嗎 也是要嗎現在現在要現在個人弊商也要做登記未來我們為了強化管理如果沒有登記的而執行這個業務會有刑者"},{"start":395.532,"end":419.856,"text":"但是行則 我知道行則 但行則比較慢你知道嗎 就等於是中間行則等於是行則不是你們這邊可以決定的嘛 對不對行則要事後的這個比較形式處分嘛行則的要求比較 所以等於是那你在這個部分 你看個人 你看我這個簡報裡頭個人避傷 你們沒有許可 你們做的是行則那做行則的話 最後你們沒有辦法管啦都變成是司法去管啦 法務部去管嘛"},{"start":420.536,"end":449.642,"text":"對不對那最後進入司法很冗長啦然後最後的話很多受害者的這個金錢事實上也都是拿不到的啊您了解我在說什麼嗎我理解那個關切的就是說你可以管的是大型平台避傷嘛對不對這個你們略管你們可以在行政上先做一些相關的處分嘛那這個是管理得到的比較可以及時比較能及時管到嘛因為它是有你們登記嘛那你剛剛說個人避傷也要向你們登記是嗎"},{"start":451.063,"end":476.223,"text":"現在是好那但是那像你們登記然後你們沒有辦法用行政管制是嗎現在的話我們沒辦法用刑責的方式那這個部分你們沒辦法用行政因為刑責也不歸你們這邊還要立法還要立法所以這個部分你們什麼時候應該也要讓這個個人避傷不然的話這個會變成一個漏洞啊這個詐騙集團他就把錢轉到這個個人避傷的這個手上你就切不掉那最後當然用刑責刑責受害者"},{"start":476.883,"end":504.676,"text":"被害者去報警報警後就進入司法司法程序這麼冗長等到查到的時候那個錢早就不知道留到何方了您瞭解嗎這會變成法律上的漏洞啊是是是我們對那個帳流跟幣流我們也有一些管控措施剛剛提到我們提到未來假設的打詐司法裡面有通過的話這一塊的話我們可以做一些金流的攬桿所以這個如果通過你們裡頭也會包括有關這個個人幣商的部分你們也會做入那個嗎也是納管"},{"start":505.556,"end":506.818,"text":"那會有行政的處罰嗎?"},{"start":522.299,"end":537.17,"text":"超商現在都有這個貨到付款嘛對不對那貨到付款有時候這個貨也不知道是誰的貨然後人家去了就領了莫名其妙就領了你以後就付了款那付了款以後這個錢現在剛付的時候應該還在超商的這個手上就超商的這個的這個帳戶裡頭還不會一下就流到這個"},{"start":548.058,"end":565.149,"text":"有關金流的部分我們是相關的法例或法務部知不知道相關法例是可以規定說比如說他用這種超商平台在詐騙有人會用超商的平台詐騙那詐騙的時候你去超商付款可能刷這個可能付這個以後這個是不是有一個金流時間也可以給他控管住"},{"start":565.929,"end":581.286,"text":"讓至少比如說發現如果比如說我拿了一個東西回來我發現說這個東西不是我訂的我被詐騙了然後趕快回去跟超商講說這多少24小時還多久可以讓這個金融從這裡阻住這樣子因為超商是很方便的地方那有時候這個詐騙人就用這個"},{"start":583.948,"end":605.54,"text":"用它的便利性讓很多人被詐騙比如說ETC要什麼付款就去超商刷那是不是這個金流在這裡可以有一個什麼機制把它堵住金管會您聽得懂我的意思嗎聽懂聽懂我想說主要是剛剛講剛剛我們在報告的時候打詐釋法裡面有一個能夠更及時的阻斷金流的做法我們現在希望有個法院能夠更有效當然"},{"start":606.6,"end":627.762,"text":"我們會支持你的打詐私法我的意思就是說金流部分務實面來講剛有說3000塊轉帳24小時那因為超商是很多人在那邊不管是刷卡或是付這個錢付那個錢有時候付完以後才發現自己被詐騙那是不是在這個部分有在各個這種平台超商也是個平台的部分在這個金流部分裡面要做相關的管控"},{"start":629.103,"end":651.278,"text":"這樣可以防止錢被流到這個詐騙集團上面去因為我發現好多人跟我曾經都去招商做很多事情這部分是不是你們也看一下如果在裡面沒有規定或這個只要行政的手段來做的話法務部或是金管會這邊是不是也來做一個規定我想這可以有效阻絕很多人被騙就是金流流到詐騙集團手上"},{"start":651.859,"end":655.834,"text":"謝謝委員我想這些剛剛提到都在我們未來規定的範圍之內"}]}},{"id":"153844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81921c321c6dd17dc1059a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001aa488f48b86ec085f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:13:35 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11:22:52","影片長度":"00:09:17","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:13:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:22:52+08:00","duration":557,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":560,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時13分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請國家安全局蔡局長以及法務部調查局吳副局長和NCC翁副主委以及中華電信林副總。"],["主席：請蔡局長還有以上各列席單位就位，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長好，還有副局長以及副主委和副總。我想今天我們要討論的就是關於司法調查的應用分析在電信信令的使用上和商業學術應用有差別，我先請教一下局長，看你瞭不瞭解這個差別。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一般來講，我們在使用電信信令，也就是說所謂的中華電信類似的電信業者的這些手機訊號位置的時候，從商業或學術研究來講，它是在去識別化之後去分析一個群體的輪廓，當然它根據的是個資法跟契約，要當事人同意，但是這跟我們國安情報或犯罪偵查以刑事起訴或情資蒐集有所不同，比如說，在我們的情資蒐集或者犯罪起訴之外，大概是要在未去識別之前找到特定的嫌疑人，並且區分潛在的受害者、共犯跟第三人，而且它基本上是法官保留，請問局長您對於這樣的區分是否同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，依照法規來講，本來就是要有這樣的區分，就……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你繼續講。"],["蔡局長明彥：就我們國安的相關偵辦來講，審查過程非常地嚴謹，尤其貴院所通過的通保法也特別強調的概念是在於最小侵害的原則……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["蔡局長明彥：所以這部分是我們依法行政的主要標準。"],["鍾委員佳濱：吳副局長，這個跟你們的犯罪偵查是否也是類似這樣子？"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是沒錯，好，我們往下看。局長，在國安及司法使用之後，依法必須定期將這些年報送給立法院備查，請問你們有根據通保法第十六條之一這樣做嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，做了！"],["鍾委員佳濱：有做了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，送到貴院備查了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：調查局，你們有嗎？還是法務部？"],["吳副局長富梅：報告，當然有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然也有，所以根據通保法的現行規定，你們只要使用過都要送到立法院來備查。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝兩位，請回。現在我們來看一下，反而是現在各種的電信契約取得授權就很含糊，我請教NCC翁副主委，這是你們定型化契約的第三十八條條款，其提到甲方因為業務上所掌握的，就是電信業者，所掌握的乙方，就是訂戶、用戶，負有保密義務，除了當事人要求查閱本身資料之外，或者要符合個資法相關法令規定，你們不得對電商揭露。這是你們訂定的？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：這個是按照電管法第十七條，因為針對用戶個資的蒐集、處理與利用，有訂定了這樣子的定型化契約。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你來看一下，遠傳電信契約的第三十九條跟你們的一模一樣，對不對？沒有問題嘛！遠傳的第三十九條，一樣嘛！遠傳電信契約的第三十九條，看得到嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是一樣嘛！好，中華電信林副總，很奇怪，你們中華電信契約的第三十七條第二項就不太一樣，你們提到乙方的資料，甲方如果有個人蒐集目的以外的使用，目的外使用喔！要得乙方的同意，但是如果甲方處理過，就是要去識別化，確認第三人無法識別乙方本人的資料，就是去識別化之後，就可以提供給第三人使用。請問你們的條款跟NCC是否一樣？"],["林副總經理文智：我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然不一樣嘛！"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有取得乙方同意？你們去識別化之後，就不需要取得乙方同意了嘛，是不是這樣子？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，我想中華電信這邊相關的事項，還是依照個資法去做……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，我是問你這條是不是你們寫的嘛！"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們就跟NCC的規定不一樣嘛！而且你們前面還寫到要得乙方同意，但是去識別化之後，就可以提供給第三人，到底要不要乙方同意？要不要乙方同意？"],["林副總經理文智：我們在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：去識別化之後，你們的用戶資料要不要乙方同意？你們也講不出來嘛！副主委，知道了沒有？你們訂定的條款，遠傳遵守，中華電信變造一下，你覺得這樣有符合你們的規定嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主委請說。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這個部分我們會要邀集三大電信業者，要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你這樣沒有直接回答問題嘛！遠傳有照你們的規定走，中華電信有沒有？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：針對這個部分，我們想說要拉齊管制，要按照NCC的來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們接著看遠傳做什麼，這是遠傳的隱私權策略，有提到蒐集資料範圍是「包括但不限於」，很簡單耶！我可以看你的東西，但不限於這些東西，那我是不是什麼都可以看？這個條款提到我可以蒐集你的資料，但不限於以下這些資料，這些資料我一定要蒐集，但是不限於這些資料，遠傳的條款基本上也把你看光光嘛！你同意嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，對此我們就是要它在蒐集的時候，事前他要知悉、同意，事後他也可以控制、可以option out……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：這個是我們未來要求三大電信業者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它要做什麼？它要做行銷、它要做非公務機關依法定義務所進行個資的蒐集及利用、它要做廣告跟商業行為、它要做其他合乎營業登記的行為、它要做調查、統計與研究、它要做其他諮詢與顧問服務，幾乎無所不包啊！它的使用目的就是這些，這誰訂定的？這是遠傳自己告訴你的，什麼都可以看、什麼都可以用。","盧秀燕市長的臺中市政府怎麼跟遠傳合作？它可以透過這些資料，包含國籍、年齡、性別、居住地，它可以透過你跟基地臺的連結去分析你的旅次鏈、數位足跡、順遊景點、住宿概況、線上行為及社群使用概況。請問副主委，你覺得這樣的內容有沒有超出商業應用，還是已經到達了可以偵知隱私的程度？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這個重點是它要去識別化，而且它只能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：去識別化，我也可以說不知道你是具體個人，我透過你停留的地點、你移動的方式、你採用的行為，我可以推斷是誰嘛，不是嗎？你覺得這樣可以接受嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這部分我會來督導三大電信業者……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，接下來就是你的事了，往下看。金管會怎麼做？金融業都有一個共同行銷特別商議條款，你們可不可以比照金融共同行銷去取得消費者的積極同意？我今天辦信用卡，他會很清楚地告訴我一張紙，你們知道嗎？剛剛中華電信那個東西有沒有在給消費者的契約上？沒有！在網路上，你簽了，你自己看，就像反質詢一樣，法律通過了再跟你報告，中華電信是不是這樣子？我剛剛講的那些內容，你們有公布在你們的契約裡面嗎？沒有，你們公布在網站上，消費者跟你打了合約、跟你訂了手機，我簽了同意，什麼內容？我要上網去看。副主任，你知道嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我知道，它有用那個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣可以嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：謝謝委員的指導，這一部分我們會努力把它拉齊，而且會比照金管會的來辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，副總，今天你是炮火焦點啦！你們覺得這樣做可以嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員先報告一下，我們個資的條款除了網站有公告之外，在受理業務的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：網路上有公告，我簽了你的條約，我的書面契約上沒有，你叫我自己去網路上看？"],["林副總經理文智：它是分離的一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，這是個分離的行為，副主委，聽到了沒有，分離的行為。"],["林副總經理文智：在本公司受理作業的時候，會要求客戶同意……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是你們自己訂定的規定，NCC有沒有同意？分離的契約內容，你簽了一個契約，契約的文字你上網去看。副主委，最後的結論……"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員再報告一下，他簽署的部分會包含上面所有的個資告知事項。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啦！我簽署的那個契約，部分的內容是要上網自己去看的。副主委，上週我在交委會已經提書面質詢了，NCC目前的進度，我要求你們要修正定型化契約，包含簡易、顯著告訴客戶使用目的，設計欄位要供客戶勾選同意，不得因客戶未同意就拒絕提供服務。NCC是不是按照這個方向去處理？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，我們近期會來修訂定型化契約。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是按照這個方式？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：按照委員指導的方向來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，中華電信要不要配合修正？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，我們目前在個資告知事項的預設就是不同意，所以要客戶選擇同意以後我們才會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：客戶不知道他同意了什麼啦！你們最大的問題就在這裡啦！謝謝副主委，副主委什麼時候可以告訴我們、告訴本委員會？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我們在年底之前會把……"],["鍾委員佳濱：年底之前是幾月？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：定型化契約全部再重新修訂，就按照委員指導的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：年底嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：12月31日？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席可以接受嗎？"],["主席：委員，你可以訂一個時間啊！因為現在發生的是大家產生了疑慮，你可以儘快，已經在推動了嘛！"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：是。"],["主席：可以更快速的時間？"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以更快速嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我們在四個月內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：四個月內，好，可以，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.90846875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.36596875,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.89221875,"end":40.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.14409375,"end":32.329718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.68284375,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.25471875,"end":53.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.22471875,"end":59.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.61659375000001,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.68346875,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.82659375,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.23846875000001,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.74846875,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.23784375000001,"end":81.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.11534375000001,"end":86.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.71784375,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.22721875,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.52659375,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.99471875,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.29784375000001,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.14159375000001,"end":113.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.95846875000001,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.27471875,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.34221875,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.64596875000001,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.91159375000001,"end":118.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.67909375,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.69596875,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.71284375,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.72534375000001,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.53846875,"end":129.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.32721875000001,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.73846875,"end":144.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start"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周委員好好 局長好還有副局長以及副主委和副總"},{"start":23.973,"end":40.09,"text":"那麼我想今天我們在討論的呢就是關於司法調查的應用分析在電信心靈的使用上和商業學中有差別我先請教一下局長看你來我聊一下這個差別一般來講我們在使用電信心靈就是說所謂的中華電信類似的電信業者的這些手機訊號位置的時候"},{"start":41.052,"end":54.511,"text":"從商業或學術研究來講他是在去識別化之後去分析一個群體的輪廓那當然他根據的是個資法跟契約要當事人同意但是呢這個跟我們國安情報或犯罪偵查他是以刑事起訴"},{"start":56.474,"end":57.194,"text":"請問局長您對這樣的區分您是否同意?"},{"start":76.617,"end":100.096,"text":"對,本來就是按照依照法規來講就是要有這樣的區分對,那就我們的國安的相關的偵辦來講那它審查過程非常的嚴謹那尤其貴院所通過的通訪法也特別強調的概念是在於最小侵害的原則所以這部分是我們的依法行政主要的標準那吳局長這個跟你們的犯罪偵查是不是也是類似是這樣子"},{"start":104.101,"end":125.77,"text":"請問局長在我們國安及司法使用之後依法必須定期將這些年報送給立法院備查請問你們有根據通報法第16條之一有這樣做嗎有做了送到貴院來備查了調查局你們有嗎還是法務部報告當然有當然也有所以根據通報法現行的規定你們只要使用過之後都要送到立法院來備查對好謝謝兩位請回"},{"start":127.591,"end":153.157,"text":"好現在我們來看一下反而是現在各種的電信契約取得授權就很含糊啊我請教NCG副主委、翁副主委這是不是你們定型化契約的條款的38條他說假方因為業務上所掌握的就是電信業者掌握的乙方就是訂戶、用戶的有保密義務除了當事人要求查閱本身資料之外或者要符合各執法相關法令規定你們不得對電商介入這是不是你們定的"},{"start":154.297,"end":174.446,"text":"這個是按照我們電管法17條因為那個就是對用戶的各自的收集處理利用那有訂了這樣子一個定型化的企業那你來看一下遠傳電信的7月的第38條跟你們的一模一樣對不對沒有問題嘛遠傳的那第39條一樣嘛遠傳電信的7月第39條看得到嗎是一樣嘛好來中華電力林副總"},{"start":179.008,"end":201.161,"text":"很奇怪,你們中華電信的7月的第37條第2項就不太一樣你們說,乙方的資料,甲方如果有個人收集目的以外的使用目的以外使用,要得乙方的同意但是,如果甲方處理過,就是要去識別化確認第三人無法識別本人,去識別化之後就可以提供給第三人使用請問,你們的條款跟ECV一樣"},{"start":203.376,"end":230.252,"text":"當然不一樣嘛,你們有沒有取得乙方同意,你們去識別化之後就不需要取得乙方同意了嘛,是不是這樣子?報告委員,我想中華電信這邊相關的事項還是依照各自...我是問你這一條是你們寫的嘛,你們就跟NCC規定不一樣嘛,而且你們前面還說要得乙方同意,但是呢去識別化之後呢,欸就好像不...但就可以提供給第三人,到底要不要乙方同意,要不要乙方同意?"},{"start":232.318,"end":259.048,"text":"往下看 要不要以方同意去自編號之後你們的用戶資料要不要以方同意你們也講不出來嘛副主委知道了沒有你們訂的條款遠傳遵守啊中華電信的變造一下你覺得這樣有符合你們的規定嗎副主委請說報告委員那個這個部分我們會邀集三大電信業者要拉你你這有沒有職業回答問題嘛遠傳有照你們的規定走中華電信有沒有"},{"start":260.089,"end":280.027,"text":"這個部分的話,我們想說要拉起管制,要按照NCC的那個來處理。好,那我們來解決看,看遠傳做什麼啦,來往下看。這是遠傳的,遠傳的隱私權策略,他說收集這個範圍,但不限於,包括但不限於,很簡單耶,我可以看你的東西,但不限於這些東西,那我是不是什麼都可以看?"},{"start":281.194,"end":290.72,"text":"這個條款說我可以收集你的資料但不限於以下這些資料這些資料我一定要收集但是不限於這些資料遠傳的條款基本上也幫你看光光嘛你同意嗎"},{"start":293.578,"end":321.138,"text":"這邊我們就是說他要收集的時候事前他要自息同意事後他也可以控制可以option out這個是我們未來要求三大經驗者他要做什麼你看他要做行銷他要做非公務機關依法定義務所進行的各自的收集及利用他要做廣告跟商業行為他要做其他合乎營業登記的行為他要做調查統計研究他要做其他諮詢跟顧問服務幾乎無所不包啊他的使用目的是這些這誰訂的"},{"start":324.34,"end":350.299,"text":"這遠傳自己告訴你的什麼都可以看什麼都可以用往下看來盧秀燕市長的臺中市政府怎麼跟遠傳合作他可以透過這些資料瞭解國籍、年齡、性別、居住地他可以去分析跟你跟記者聯繫他可以聯繫到你私戀你的數位足跡、順由的景點住宿的概況、線上的行為社群使用的概況請問副主委你就是這樣的內容"},{"start":351.653,"end":370.97,"text":"有沒有超出商業應用還是已經到達了可以政治隱私的程度報委員這個重點是說他要去識別化而且他只能去識別化我也可以說不知道你是具體個人我透過你停留的地點你移動的方式你採用的行為我可以推斷是誰嗎不是嗎你覺得這樣可以接受嗎"},{"start":372.298,"end":396.557,"text":"法委,這邊我們會請,我會來督導三大電信業者。很好,接下來就是你的事了,往下看。金款會怎麼做?金融業它都有一個共同行銷特別商議條款。你們可不可以比照金融共同行銷去取得消費者的積極同意?我今天辦信用卡,他會告訴我,很清楚地告訴我一張紙。你們知道嗎?剛剛中華電信那個東西有沒有在給消費者的契約上?沒有!"},{"start":397.677,"end":403.028,"text":"在網路上你簽了你自己看就像反諮詢一樣把法律通過了再跟你報告"},{"start":404.738,"end":429.469,"text":"中華電信是不是這樣子我剛剛講那些內容你們有公布在你們的契約裡面嗎沒有你們公布在網站上我消費者跟你打了合約我跟你訂了手機我現在同意什麼內容我要上網去看副主委你知道嗎我知道他有用那個這樣可以嗎我想謝謝委員的指導這一部分我們會來努力把它拉起而且會比照那個金管會的那個來辦來副總"},{"start":431.03,"end":457.396,"text":"今天你是泡口焦點阿你們覺得這樣做可以嗎跟委員先報告一下齁我們那個各支的條款除了網站有公告之外在受理業務的時候網路上有公告我簽了你的條約我的契約上的書面沒有你叫我自己去網路上看他是分離的一個對這是個分離的行為主委、副主委聽到沒有分離的行為在本公司受理作業的時候會是這是你們制定的規定NC有沒有同意"},{"start":459.175,"end":473.613,"text":"分離的契約內容你簽了一個契約契約的文字你上網去看副主委來最後的結論跟委員再報告一下那他那個簽署的部分會包含上面所有的是啊我簽署這個契約部分的內容是要上網自己去看的副主委來"},{"start":474.694,"end":500.133,"text":"上週我在教會已經提出面諮詢了NCC目前進度我要求你們修正定型化契約簡易、顯著、告訴客戶的使用目的設計的欄位要供客戶勾選同意不得因客戶未同意就拒絕提供服務NCC是不是按照這個方式來處理八位我們在近期會來修訂那個定型化契約按照委員指導的方向來處理好那最後中華電信要不要配合修正"},{"start":500.934,"end":529.374,"text":"跟著委員報告我們目前在這一個各自告知事項的預設就是不同意所以要客戶選擇同意以後我們才會客戶不知道他同意了什麼啦你們的最大的問題就這裡啦謝謝副主委副主委什麼時候可以告訴我們告訴本委員會我想我們在年底之前會把那個電信化企業全部再重新修訂就按照委員指導的方式12月31號主席可以接受嗎"},{"start":531.584,"end":532.364,"text":"接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"153843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81963c622a1a00918080fec08313b105ec0dd6f040307a1001a61cd8283283c7cb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：大家好。郭部長，對於核電方向又改變，這樣的一件事，我還是要期勉你，上次我在這裡也特別跟郭部長提到，核能、核電是一個專業的部分，所以在郭部長上次的報告裡面有提到，核安、核電議題的三大前提──核安要確保、核廢須處理、社會有共識，還要尊重國會審議及討論，這些都涉及到專業，上次我也特別提到，就算立法院要審議，立法委員大部分沒有這個專業，所以還是要靠專業。請問一下郭部長，你上任到現在有沒有跟負責核電的這些台電人員討論過？"],["郭部長智輝：負責核電的同仁是沒有討論過，但是跟台電的同仁幾乎是每天都在討論。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我建議部長，要跟台電負責核電的同仁還有核能研究所討論。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：也許還有其他涉及到的相關部會，這個涉及到專業而且也涉及到我們今天討論的AI，各方面都是需要電力，這個我不是專業，但是我認為應該是要去好好地討論，當然核四我們之所以整個關閉，就是因為日本的福島事故，但是日本很快地就重啟了，對不對？它很快就重啟了，它已經重啟了10部機組，所以它的核電占比從目前的不到5%，預計在2030年提高到20%至22%，這是他們日本對核電的一個處理，這個部分的科技一直在進步，所以相關的這些過去引發的事故，也都會因為科技的進步獲得解決，怎麼樣讓人民安心，讓產業更安心，這很重要。","好，回到今天的主題，經濟部的報告裡面提到，預計2028年製造業AI應用的普及率能從目前的12.3%提升至50%，這個要積極地來達成目標。當然，這裡面無論是經濟部的報告、國發會的報告或者是數發部的報告，都提到AI人才的培育，百工百業的這些應用，然後相關的認證、發展各方面，而且是跨部會的，確實是跨部會。請問一下部長或者是國發會主委，這個跨部會由誰來負責整合或是召集？國發會主委，你來回答可能比較適合。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，跨部會是國發會來負責。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：國發會喔，當然你的人力也是有限，國發會負責很多的業務，跟相關部會的業務都有關係，有關中長程計畫的核定、各方面的審議，人力怎麼樣去……人力最多的數發部，請他們多發揮這方面的力量，這樣可以節省你們的人力。因為我是30年的老公務員，我會比較強調、考慮到這個部分。好，主委，你就先回座。","部長還有教育部，因為時間的關係，我還是要談到原住民的部分，畢竟我是原住民的立委，我要讓部長還有教育部瞭解，我過去在臺灣省政府服務20年，然後精省之後到中央服務，常務副主委當過六年多，民國85年，當時的省政府教育廳跟明志工專，也就是王永慶的企業對原住民開設的專班，最早的專班就是這個，他開設專班培育原住民的人才，讓他們能夠到台塑的企業，所以當時這些開設專班的人，現在大部分都在雲林的台塑廠，我講這個部分就是說，AI這個部分，我上次也有跟部長提到AI，怎麼樣能夠鼓勵原住民的人才？這必須要透過產業跟教育，教育部跟大專校院能夠怎麼樣合作，也讓原住民的人才往這個方向去發展？因為原住民的教育，我再講一次，原漢的教育落差高，在大專校院的粗在學率有高達30%的落差，但是很多的學校，尤其是科技大學，它去開這個專班之後，學生到產業界就有很好的一個發展，所以這個部分要請經濟部跟教育部這邊共同合作去推動。部長，要不要先發表一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的百工百業對AI的人才沒有訓練那麼高階的LLM部分，我們是訓練微調跟實用部分，這個就是說他接受一段的訓練以後，他就可以發揮，所以這個訓練很快，他可能經過半年的訓練以後就可以馬上在他的工作上應用，所以我才有辦法訓練那麼多人，而那麼多人來了以後，透過AI來訓練AI，我想那個會更快，所以可以讓整個經濟提升，提升價值、減少loss，這個就是我們推動AI最大的目的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，教育部政次，我先簡要說明，剛才部長講的也非常好！當初我在省政府原住民行政局當副局長，去協調教育廳、明志工專，其實它也不是正式的學程，我講的所謂的專班也不是正式的學程，它就是利用暑假開了那個專班，學會一技之長，然後就到台塑企業，所以剛剛部長也講了不一定是要整個大學4年的學程，次長，可以往這方向去努力嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，其實像剛剛委員提到我們現在在技職這一塊有產攜2.0的計畫，基本上就是要結合技高、科大跟企業，合在一起，讓這些學生學的技術……因為以前都是學技術之後可能還要考試，但是我們現在就是讓他在技高畢業就可以順利的就業，可以領薪水，一邊工作也可以一邊學技術，然後在科大可以得到學位，這個部分的人數目前全臺灣大概是七千多人，其實一直在往上提升，我們未來也會繼續推動這一塊。另外也跟委員報告，在原住民的部分，目前我們有25個大學設立25個專班，也給這些大學經費，鼓勵他們在這邊給原住民的同學有一些好的training，這部分是教育部一直都持續努力在做。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：希望教育部能夠跟經濟部合作，對於AI產業原住民的部分，能夠給予他們學習的機會、進入產業界的機會，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：之前教育部推的是4加1，現在又來一個3加2，所以我們委員所希望的就是你要針對需求者，去讓他落實在產業當中，這樣子不是只有口號啊！所以你現在是改3加2，應該要跟委員說明清楚。謝謝。","接下來我們請張嘉郡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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郭部長上次的報告核安、核電議題三大前提核安要確保、核廢墟處理、社會有共識尊重國會審議及討論這些都是涉及到專業了上次我也特別提到就算立法院要審議立法委員大部分沒有這個專業了"},{"start":93.204,"end":120.182,"text":"所以還是要靠專業請問一下郭部長你上任到現在有沒有跟台電負責核電的這些台電的人員討論過負責核電的同仁是沒有討論過但是跟台電的同仁是幾乎每天都在討論這個我建議部長"},{"start":124.161,"end":146.609,"text":"要跟台電負責核電的同仁還有核能研究所要討論也許還有其他的相關涉及到的部會這個是涉及到專業的而且涉及到"},{"start":149.039,"end":178.482,"text":"我們今天討論的AI各方面都是需要電力的都是需要電力這個我不是專業但是我認為應該是要去好好的討論這個當然我們之所以合適這個整個關閉就是因為福島事故嘛日本的福島事故但是日本馬上就很快的就重啟了對不對他很快重啟"},{"start":180.071,"end":200.731,"text":"所以它這個整個已經重啟了10步基礎所以它從目前的不到5%在2030年提高到20%至22%這是他們日本對核電的一個處理所以這個部分是科技一直在進步"},{"start":202.43,"end":220.61,"text":"所以相關的這些過去引發的這些事故都也會因為科技的進步然後去解決所以這個怎麼樣讓人民安心產業更安心這很重要回到今天的主題"},{"start":224.065,"end":241.716,"text":"這個經濟部的這裡面提到AI應用普及力能從目前12.3%提升至50%製造業以及2028年製造業AI應用普及力能從目前12.3%提升至50%這個是要這個積極的來達成這個目標當然這裡面"},{"start":251.909,"end":278.846,"text":"無論是經濟部的報告、國發會的報告或者是數發部的報告都提到AI人才、AI人才的培育百工百業的這些應用然後相關的認證、發展各方面而且是跨部會,確實是跨部會了"},{"start":280.231,"end":302.855,"text":"請問一下部長還是或者是國會主委這個跨部會誰來負責整合或是說來召集國會主委你來回答可能比較適合是的跨部會是國會會來負責跨國會當然你的人力也是有限這個國會負責很多的業務"},{"start":307.963,"end":332.767,"text":"這個相關的這些各部會的業務都有關係中長程計劃的核定各方面審議人力怎麼樣去這個人力最多的書發部請他們多發揮這方面的這樣可以節省你們的人力因為我是老公務員我會強調會比較考慮這個我是30年公務員會比較考慮這個部分"},{"start":337.659,"end":363.297,"text":"好 這個那個主委你就先回座部長還有那個教育部因為時間的關係這個我還是要談到原住民的部分畢竟原住民的立委我要讓部長還有教育部了解我過去在台灣省政府服務"},{"start":364.925,"end":386.527,"text":"20年然後經審之後到中央服務常務副主委當過6年多民國85年當時的省政府教育廳跟明智工專明智工專也就是王永慶這個企業"},{"start":389.905,"end":417.648,"text":"對原住民開設專班在明治公專最早的專班就是這個專班開設專班培育原住民的人才能夠到台售的企業所以當時這些開設專班的人大部分現在都在雲林雲林的台售廠我講這個部分就是說AI"},{"start":419.149,"end":444.807,"text":"這個部分我上次也有跟部長提到AI原住民的人才怎麼樣能夠鼓勵他們所以這必須要產業跟教育教育部大專校院怎麼樣能夠合作也讓原住民的人才會往這個方向去發展因為這個原住民的教育"},{"start":446.428,"end":468.25,"text":"我再講一次嚴漢的教育落差帶大專校院的出債協力出債協力高達百分之三十的落差但是很多的學校尤其是科技大學它去開專班之後"},{"start":470.407,"end":485.943,"text":"到產業界具有很好的一個發展所以這個部分要請經濟部跟教育部這邊共同的來去合作及推動這個部長要不要先"},{"start":487.287,"end":502.405,"text":"發表一下報告委員我們的百工百業對AI的人才沒有訓練那麼高階的LLM的部分但是我們是訓練在微調跟使用上面那這個就是說它除了"},{"start":503.362,"end":532.161,"text":"接受一段的這個訓練以後他就可以發揮所以這個是訓練很快他可能是半年的訓練以後就馬上可以在他工作上面應用所以我才有辦法說訓練那麼多人那麼多人來以後因為透過AI來訓練AI我想那個是更快所以可以讓整個經濟提升提升那個價值減少那個loss這個就是我們推動AI的最大的目的"},{"start":532.898,"end":542.405,"text":"好 那個教育部政策我先簡要說明剛才部長講得也非常好當初啊"},{"start":543.8,"end":562.874,"text":"我那時候在省政府原住民行政局當副局長去協調這個教育廳然後這個明治公專其實他也不是正式的那個我所謂的這個專班也不是正式的協程他就是利用暑假開了那個專班"},{"start":564.776,"end":582.911,"text":"然後就去學會一技之長然後就到台塑企業是這樣所以剛剛部長也講了他不一定是要一個是一個整個大學的四年的學程部長可以往這方向去市長可以往這方向去努力嗎"},{"start":584.412,"end":606.903,"text":"跟這個委員報告那其實像剛剛委員提到我們現在這個在技職這一塊我們有這個產業這個產業產息這2.0這個計畫他基本上就是要結合這個技高還有這個科大跟企業合在一起就讓這些學生其他學的技術因為以前都是學技術之後可能還要考試但是我們現在就是讓他可以"},{"start":607.923,"end":629.993,"text":"順利在科大技高畢業後可以就業可以領薪水一邊工作一邊學技術在科大可以得到學位這個部分的人數目前全台灣大概是7000多人一直在往上提升我們未來也會繼續推動這一塊特別是另外也跟委員報告我們在原住民這邊目前我們有25個大學"},{"start":635.475,"end":656.603,"text":"這個設立25個專班那也給這些大學經費鼓勵他們就是在這邊給原住民的同學他有一些一好的training所以我想這部分是教育部是在持續的都一直在努力在做希望教育部能夠跟經濟部合作對這個AI產業的部分對原住民的部分給他們這個學習的機會進入產業界的機會好不好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819a0ab562153711d1125a148732a468ab6dd6f040307a1001a4763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:05:09 - 11:17:03","影片長度":"00:11:54","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:05:09+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:17:03+08:00","duration":714,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請教育部鄭部長、法務部郭司長、警政署蔡警政監、國教署彭署長。"],["主席：我們請四位，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：先請教彭署長，國教署指導運作的一個社團法人臺灣應用行為分析協會，根據民眾反映，他們的視訊會議系統用的是騰訊VooV，請問署長，這是不是中國的軟體？國教署指導的團體用中國軟體是不是非常不妥？請署長。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告一下，這一個協會是不是我們補助的，這個讓我們查一下。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，你們查一下。"],["彭署長富源：中午以前回報您，好嗎？"],["林委員宜瑾：你會認為用這種中國軟體是非常的不妥適吧？"],["彭署長富源：相關的規範都要按照中央以及我們資科司有相關的規範來辦理。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝署長，署長你請回。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：我是很深切地認為，其實我們一定要避免這種中國或中資軟體的使用，因為要防範我們隨時可能會產生的資安風險。","進入今天的主題，毒品跟管制藥品在各級校園流竄，一直是國家的隱憂，近幾年來又有新興的形式進入校園，過去在我們多年的宣導之下，其實學生們對於常見的毒品外貌大多已經有個概念了，像K他命、安非他命或摻有毒品粉末的咖啡包等等，在教育聯合警政跟衛生單位的宣導下，大家對這些東西都會有一些警覺！所以我們從警政署的數據上也可以看到，去年查獲的少年毒品犯3,417人，比 2019年減少了2,200多人，少了39.8%，就可以看得出成效。不過，我想近幾年最危險的地方還是毒品換了一個新的形式進入校園，部長你知不知道有彩虹菸這種毒品？或者是藏了毒品在電子煙煙彈這回事，部長你有沒有聽過？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我是有聽過。"],["林委員宜瑾：沒錯，就是在防制毒品上，傳統這種杜絕的手段，我們漸漸有了成果，但是在新興的手法上，再加上網路的發達，加上這種幽微不明的販售現象，所謂的彩虹菸跟藏毒品在電子煙煙彈裡面，又是另一個現在進行式的危機。所以現在毒販直接將各種毒品，例如大麻、卡西酮還有依脫咪酯等等加入電子煙的煙彈中，這會讓毒品的使用變得相當的方便，隨時隨地都可以吸食到，而且過程還不容易被發現，雖然我們有菸害防治法可以去防範電子煙的吸食，管制成年人販售菸品給未成年人，但是學生很可能透過抖音等等管道去購買到，而且我們私下是很難查緝到的，他們所謂口中有趣的東西，所以透過同儕間的模仿效應，越來越多青少年會有誤觸這種新興毒品的風險。","有關於這部分，縣市政府教育局跟警察單位的聯合查緝就變得非常的重要，尤其我要鄭重的建議，在相關單位接獲通報後，應主動出擊，往上去追溯來源，而且要更積極的進行所謂網路的巡查，去杜絕這種新興毒品在青少年交易的可能，在使用彩虹菸跟毒品煙彈的興起下，本席有個疑問在於說，這種非法轉讓混毒的菸品究竟應該要依照菸害防治法送辦，還是用毒品危害防制條例來送辦？因為它涉及的罰則中，前者只有罰罰鍰，後者是有期徒刑，所以請教教育部、法務部或警政署，對於加強查緝這種新興菸品適用的法律是什麼？你們的看法是怎樣？先請法務部好了，還是教育部呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正，雖然它不是我的專業，但是我還真的對於這個是有一些想法的，當然對於受教的青少年，在許多的學習過程中，我們除了給予教導外，也希望給一些機會，但是我會希望，在源頭上如果它是有系統性的在吸收，不管是菸毒或者校園的黑幫，應該從犯罪的加重刑罰來處理。我覺得這個部分在事實上，特別是針對我們未來寄望的新世代，我們應該要加重刑罰，這是我的基本看法。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，我們請教法務部，就是到底要用菸害防治法還是毒品危害防制條例？"],["郭司長永發：委員好，跟委員報告，有關於電子煙本身它其實是一個載體，電子煙本身其實是違反菸害防治條例，它只有行政處罰而已，但是如果加進的煙彈有大麻或者是其他卡西酮類的毒品等等，就要看它是第幾級的毒品，就用第幾級毒品的毒品危害防制條例來處罰，剛剛委員提到有關依脫咪酯的部分，其實3月28號我們的毒品審議委員會已經第一次預告，就是預警有這個毒品、品項的出現，因為這要經毒品審議委員會審議通過，所以在經3個月的蒐集之後，我們在明天可能就要把它列為三級的毒品來管制，以上跟委員報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，如果是其他藥品，就是所謂成癮性的藥品，在尚未列管為管制毒品前，可是同時它也混在煙彈裡面，在這種情形下，我覺得還是要去注意。"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，其實我們臺高檢在去年12月，我記得是12月，就已經成立了預警平台，也就是說，各查緝單位發現可能有先驅物品是製毒原料的時候，就會先預告這個可能具有製成毒品的未來性，就會提報到我們法務部毒審會來審議，以上報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，瞭解。","接下來想談談管制藥品濫用的問題，因為某些身心症的患者，因為病況而需要服用，像是史蒂諾斯或利他能等藥品，這些藥品如果沒有經過醫生的處方簽，他是不可能會有的，可是有的經過醫生開立處方簽之後，會私下互相轉讓，其實這是違法的，學生們可能會覺得吃了醫生開的利他能後可以集中精神、加強課業，可是他拿了這些藥，偷偷給了朋友一、兩顆，這個看似微不足道的行為，都是違法的喔！所以光是利他能這種非法轉讓而觸犯毒品危害防制條例的，就查到了30多筆的公開判決，所以請問部長，我們要如何在校園加強宣導管制藥品不得任意轉讓這件事情？請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這還是要從我們的親師座談，還有許多家長的一些……"],["林委員宜瑾：去加強宣導。"],["鄭部長英耀：加強宣導，另外還有在課程上，剛才講到融入到許多的輔導課程或者一些相關的活動，讓同學知道一方面它是治療用的，但是怎麼樣去謹守分際，而不會變成一個好像開玩笑式的或者一個買賣的行為，我想這是不應該被鼓勵的，而且是應該被禁止的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。再來本席要跟部長請教，就是你有沒有關注到潘文忠前部長來立法院的最後一次備詢，他在那天的詢答中，陳培瑜委員有問到，在潘部長任內是否有遺憾未完成，但是會放在交接名單前三名的工作項目。潘部長的回答是，像校園霸凌、校園安全，都是他認為很重要的工作，並且教育部也已經完成學生輔導法的草案整理，現在各方的意見還在整合中。我想掌握學生的身心健康，充分瞭解學生處境，並給予相應的協助，也是今天專報的重點之一。學生輔導法修訂是本席從上個任期關注到現在的一個很大的題目，這會期也已經提出修正案，我想教育部的草案版本也磨很久了，希望能夠趕快送到立法院來，這樣我們就可以儘早排審，讓今天大家憂心的校園問題，可以有一個修正調整過後的制度來利用。據本席瞭解，學生輔導法在上一屆立委任期內，教育部跟行政院光是溝通，就來來回回改了四個版本，請問部長，目前院版的學生輔導法修正草案是否還是難產？跟行政院的溝通到底怎麼樣？部長剛剛說8月會送到立法院，那麼本席在此提出一個要求，也就是送進立法院的法案版本，一定要充分採納第一線輔導諮商專業者的意見，不要忽視輔導諮商專業學會跟公會的聯合聲明，不曉得部長的看法如何？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。剛才召委也有特別提到，潘前部長也有提到，學生輔導法是重中之重，應優先處理。目前在大學端部分已經有共識，且有50%的大學已經在做了，雖然法令尚未通過。目前我們確實卡在中小學的專任輔導老師跟輔導人員上，還有許多要溝通的地方，我們會儘速來建立共識，希望在8月底能夠先提行政院……"],["林委員宜瑾：好，期待下個會期就可以排審。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。不過我還是要提醒部長，就我的理解，我在7月時就會排審，不好意思。至於行政院的做法如何，請行政院加快速度補上，因為我們7月排審，從去年的4月到現在，已經給行政院非常多時間了！如果行政院不送案進來，那麼本席直接排審，謝謝。部長請回座。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.59096875,"end":19.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.824718750000002,"end":26.136593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":25.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.20846875,"end":25.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.79909375,"end":25.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.84534375,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.01221875,"end":46.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.56784375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.91346875,"end":51.415343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.87096875,"end":52.461593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.03534375,"end":54.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.773468750000006,"end":56.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.15284375,"end":61.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.890968750000006,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.20284375000001,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.422218750000006,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.080343750000004,"end":66.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.34971875000001,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.77971875,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.79596875,"end":153.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.42034375,"end":74.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.80846875,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.13221875000002,"end":164.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.41034375,"end":224.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.95784375000002,"end":306.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.21909375,"end":310.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.47596875,"end":312.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.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那我想進入今天的主題喔我想毒品跟管制藥品在各級校園流竄的一直是國家的隱憂那近幾年來又有進入這種校園的這種新興的形式那例如說"},{"start":103.847,"end":104.048,"text":"在教育"},{"start":120.106,"end":122.588,"text":"昨年查獲的少年毒品犯3417人比2019減少了2200多人少了39.8%那就是看得出成效"},{"start":143.841,"end":144.562,"text":"部長,您有沒有聽過?"},{"start":162.485,"end":183.951,"text":"根文報告我是有聽過有聽過那沒錯就是說在這種防制毒品上傳統的這種杜絕的手段我們漸漸有了成果但是在新興的手法上再加上網路的發達加劇這種幽微不明的這種販售現象那所謂的彩虹衣跟藏毒品在這種電子煙煙彈裡面又是另一個現在進行式的危機"},{"start":188.132,"end":203.502,"text":"所以現在我們毒販直接將各種毒品例如大麻、卡西酮還是伊托米茲這種加入電子煙的煙彈中那這會讓毒品的使用變得相當的方便"},{"start":204.242,"end":204.262,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":225.029,"end":225.269,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":241.816,"end":245.397,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":260.644,"end":261.224,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":281.062,"end":283.503,"text":"請教育部：法務部：警政署列席"},{"start":313.174,"end":339.472,"text":"謝謝委員的指正雖然他不是我的一個專業但是我還真的對這個我是有一些想法的當然我們這個受教的這個青少年在許多的學習過程我們給予教導然後也希望給一些機會但是我會希望從源頭裡邊如果有系統性的在吸收不管是這個煙毒或者這些校園的黑幫"},{"start":340.452,"end":343.115,"text":"好 那我們請法院部就說到底要用嚴害防治法還是毒品危害條例"},{"start":360.476,"end":381.196,"text":"委員跟委員報告有關於電子煙本身電子煙本身它其實一個載體電子煙本身其實是違反煙害防制條例它只有行政處罰而已但是如果加進了煙彈有這個大麻或者是其他卡西銅類的毒品等等那就要看"},{"start":381.696,"end":400.305,"text":"他是第幾級的毒品那就用第幾級毒品毒品危害防治條例來處罰那剛剛委員剛剛提到有關伊東米子的部分伊東米子其實我們在3月28號我們的毒品審議委員會已經第一次預告就是預警有這個毒品出現這個"},{"start":401.305,"end":401.325,"text":"好．"},{"start":417.996,"end":418.597,"text":"根本報告其實我們台高檢在去年的12月"},{"start":437.279,"end":453.445,"text":"我記得是12月就有已經成立的預警平台也就是說各查緝單位發現可能有先驅物品是為製毒顏料的時候就先預告這個可能具有製成毒品的未來性就會提報到我們獨審會法務獨審會來審議以上報告是"},{"start":457.947,"end":461.069,"text":"接下來想談談管制藥品濫用的問題因為某些身心症的患者他因為病況而需要服用史蒂諾斯或利他能等藥品那這些藥品如果沒有經過醫生的處方間他是不可能會有的"},{"start":476.198,"end":480.92,"text":"可是他經過醫生處罰間開例之後會私下互相轉讓其實這是違法的那學生們可能會因為說我覺得吃了醫生開的利他能可以集中精神那加強課業可是他拿了這些藥偷偷給了朋友一兩顆那這個看似為不足道的行為都是違法的那所以光是利他能這種非法轉讓"},{"start":502.01,"end":516.923,"text":"而觸犯毒品危害的這個防制條例查到了30多筆的公開判決所以請問部長我們要如何在校園加強宣導管制藥品不得任意轉讓這件事情 部長"},{"start":518.016,"end":543.031,"text":"是的 謝謝我想這還是要從我們親師座談還有許多的家長的一些這個去加強宣導讓加強宣導那另外還有在課程我剛才講融入到許多的輔導的課程或者一些相關的活動讓同學知道這一個一方面他是用來治療用的但是他怎麼樣去緊鎖分際而不變成一個"},{"start":544.912,"end":545.172,"text":"在潘文忠部長任內"},{"start":566.579,"end":587.085,"text":"是否有遺憾未完成但是會放在交接名單前三名的工作項目那潘部長回答說像是校園霸凌、校園安全都是他認為很重要的工作那並且教育部也已經完成學生輔導法的草案整理那現在在各方的意見還在整合中"},{"start":588.045,"end":604.154,"text":"我想掌握學生身心的健康充分了解學生的處境並給予相應的協助同時這也是我們今天專報的重點之一學生輔導法修訂是本席一路從上個任期關注到現在的一個很大的題目"},{"start":605.435,"end":615.18,"text":"議員們已經提出了法案,我想教育部的草案版本也磨了很久了。我想說如果能夠趕快送到立法院來,我們就可以儘早排審,讓今天大家憂心的校園問題可以透過有一個修正調整過後的制度可以利用。據本席瞭解,就是學生輔導法在上一..."},{"start":625.486,"end":630.692,"text":"請問部長目前院版的學生輔導法修正草案是否還是那麼難產那跟行政院的溝通到底怎麼樣那部長剛剛有回應說齁"},{"start":644.326,"end":647.188,"text":"教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部警政署列席"},{"start":666.019,"end":687.234,"text":"謝謝委員我想剛才包含我們召委也特別也主席也都特別提到那我們學生輔導法確實我們原來也一直積極希望能夠潘前部長也特別提到學生輔導法是一個重中之重應該要先優先處理那目前在大學端那個部分已經有共識而且已經有50%的大學已經在做了"},{"start":689.716,"end":689.856,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819376941c03597563798b2dfa55713766cdd6f040307a1001ab67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:03:23 - 11:13:45","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T11:03:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:13:45+08:00","duration":622,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":636,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時3分）謝謝主席，請黃次長跟秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩次長跟秘書長。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長、次長，早安。首先我就這次修法第二百四十五條的司法院版跟行政院版的差異來就教兩位，我看到行政院版的第二百四十五條多增訂了第三項跟第四項，第三項規定「前項限制或禁止事由應記明於筆錄。」，第四項規定「檢察官、檢察事務官、司法警察官或司法警察依第二項但書禁止辯護人在場，致被告或犯罪嫌疑人無其他辯護人在場陪同，應再行告知第九十五條第一項第二款、第三款之事項。」，司法院版本並沒有這第三項跟第四項的規定。我先請教次長，為什麼要增訂第三項跟第四項？"],["黃次長謀信：增訂第三項要記明於筆錄，這個事實上是落實我們現行應行注意事項跟實務上的規定，如果有限制或禁止事由，我們本來就要求檢察官要記明於筆錄。另外一個目的就是記明於筆錄之後，讓被告、辯護人可以救濟，因為之後會連帶的救濟，因為只有記明筆錄才可以為救濟的事由……"],["林委員思銘：是，你有救濟規定我知道。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員思銘：那司法院版為什麼沒有？秘書長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，現在是會銜啦，司法院提出甲案之後會銜行政院，行政院有再徵詢，所以我們也都有參與，現在司法院也是共同認為，後來集思廣益，在會銜的時候司法院也都有提出來凝聚共識，所以現在這個乙案是兩院的共識了啦。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以現在司法院也同意依照行政院的版本？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["林委員思銘：對於這個版本，我提出一下我們實務上運作的一個困難！秘書長，增訂這個部分是針對但書的規定，也就是說，律師有筆記及陳述意見的權利，把它入法，然後但書規定「但有事實足認其有妨害國家機密或有湮滅、偽造、變造證據或勾串共犯或證人或妨害他人名譽之虞，或其行為不當足以影響偵查秩序者，得限制或禁止之。」，這個限制或禁止事由依增訂第三項要記明於筆錄，第四項則規定要告知他有第九十五條的規定，讓他可以再請辯護人，也就是告知他第九十五條第二款、第三款的規定，第三款就是他可以選任辯護人嘛。但是現在就會有一個問題出現，在實務上，如果現在是在偵查程序中，被告請了律師來，檢察官如何判定會有但書的情形發生？在實務上，你如何判斷？正在偵訊，律師就坐在下面，他可能連一句話都還沒講耶！"],["黃次長謀信：當然他要符合剛剛委員提的第二百四十五條第二項但書的限制或禁止規定，前提是他有一些事實的存在啊，檢察官認為這個妨害他……"],["林委員思銘：我知道，所以我說你如何第一時間判斷這個辯護人會有這些但書的事由存在，然後去限制或禁止他來做辯護？要求被告再選任另外一位。"],["黃次長謀信：當然前提是檢察官要先做禁止的動作嘛！"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["黃次長謀信：禁止被告在場……"],["林委員思銘：禁止辯護人在場啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對，禁止辯護人在場。"],["林委員思銘：我的問題就是說，對於這個但書的事由，檢察官在第一時間能判斷嗎？依照我們過去在實務運作上的經驗，今天被告請了一個律師坐在後面要來做辯護，但實際上他可能一句話都還沒有講喔，因為你只是在偵訊、問被告嘛，然後你就可以馬上瞭解到這個律師他會偽造、變造證據，他會有妨害國家機密，或者他會勾串共犯或證人，你從什麼事由來判斷？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，當然個案上個案去判斷啦，沒有錯，誠如委員所講的，也許是偵查庭進行一段程序之後，會因律師在個案偵查庭的表現來做判斷，但有可能檢察官事先他就掌握有互相串供、滅證的情況，有可能。"],["林委員思銘：所以這可能不是第一次被辯護，可能在經過歷次的偵查庭的詢問之後，應該是之後才會發生這種情況嘛，如果這樣看，這才是法條的設計啊。"],["黃次長謀信：個案可能要事實上來認定。"],["林委員思銘：所以一開始不可能嘛，我剛剛就點出來了，在實務上要瞭解到律師會有什麼妨害國家機密或會有湮滅、偽造、變造證據或勾串共犯或證人這樣的一個情況，或者影響偵查秩序，所以你要去禁止或限制之，這個要有很具體的事由啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對，個案上有可能是在第一次開庭前檢察官已經掌握相互的律師跟被告之間有些勾串的事實存在了，已經掌握了，所以檢察官在這個狀況下運用這條但書規定去限制或禁止他在場。"],["林委員思銘：所以你們才會做相關的立法，是這個意思？但是現在我們的問題又出現了喔，這個時候依照規定還要告知他有第九十五條的規定，比如說你現在限制或禁止這位律師到場來做辯護，你馬上要告知他依照第九十五條第二項的規定，他可以再選任辯護人，所以在實務上這個操作會出現很大的問題，就是你告訴他之後，你是不是要等他再選一位辯護人進來？"],["黃次長謀信：我們訴訟法本來就有規定，將權利告知完之後，會附帶的帶出我們有一些等候辯護人的時間的規範。"],["林委員思銘：對，所以又會等候他？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員思銘：如果要等候這個律師，又要等候下一個律師進來，檢察官能判斷新聘的、新找來的那位律師會不會也有但書的事由？你如何判斷？"],["黃次長謀信：對，的確這個要事實上就個案去判斷。"],["林委員思銘：所以為什麼我剛才會講說司法院的版本沒有增訂這二項，是不是司法院有這方面的考量，認為如何去瞭解這個律師真的會有但書的這幾種情況存在，檢察官真的在偵查案件時馬上就可以瞭解嗎？所以其實我是說，現階段對辯護人禁止辯護的情況，通常在實務上，檢察官對於這個律師如果有蒐集到相關證據，即便沒有這些條文，他還是可以禁止他辯護耶，是不是這樣？就是說，現階段沒有這條法律的設計，如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由，是不是也可以立即就限制他……"],["黃次長謀信：現行法上本來就是可以啊！"],["林委員思銘：現行法就可以了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，只是現行法沒有賦予救濟的途徑，被憲判字第7號宣告違憲啦，現行法的確是有這個機制。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以嘛，你為了要去救濟律師被限制或禁止後有這個權利，但是這跟要不要增加這一條法條的設計，這個就值得思考，也就是說，被限制或禁止後的救濟規定可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定嘛，但是你有沒有必要在這個法條裡面弄個第三項、第四項這樣的規定？有沒有必要？因為現在現行法制就有了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛講了，有關第三項的部分，我們是把現行的作法明文化了，把記明於筆錄明文化。至於第四項的部分，其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的、再度獲得確保，當辯護人已被禁止的時候，檢察官必須要再權利告知有關於緘默權、有關於選任辯護權的相關規定，讓被告可以再做一次的選任，這是對被告再度且更確認的保障。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我當然瞭解你們的立場啦，只是我覺得這樣的法條設計就會讓我們好像陷入一個漩渦裡面，明明現在的規定就有了，已經夠用了，但是我們又去修法加入這個第三項及第四項，其實律師如果有這種情況，原本的規定就已經夠限制了嘛，就可以限制、禁止他做辯護了嘛，所以我的疑惑是說司法院版既然沒有，我會贊同司法院版喔，我覺得司法院是不是在當時有什麼考量，秘書長，你再講清楚，當時你們的版本沒有這個部分，你們是有什麼樣的考量？"],["吳秘書長三龍：後來在會銜的時候，認為行政院提出來的是更詳細啦，然後對整個人權更有保障。"],["林委員思銘：是啦，我想當然相關的規定，我發覺我們法務部有時候遇到問題，就是會提出像剛才講的要修專法或怎樣子，那種感覺有點疊床架屋啦，明明現行法制就有了嘛，如果你要落實律師的筆記權，已經講得很清楚了嘛，但是你要限制他的辯護權，依照現行的規定，我發覺很多律師都會被檢察官說涉及利益衝突或者有但書的幾種情況，就被限制辯護權了，讓他知難而退啊，我們現在又再去把這個條文修進來，讓人家感覺這是治絲益棼啦，感覺是這樣子，所以我想到時候這個條文在逐條討論的時候，我們可以好好考慮一下到底要不要修這一條。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：現在請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.50221875,"end":13.328468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.387843750000002,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.80846875,"end":24.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.68534375,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.61284375000001,"end":10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條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":422.785,"end":434.533,"text":"所以其實我是說現階段其實對我們辯護人禁止辯護的檢察官通常在實務上他認為這個律師如果他收集到相容證據即便沒有這些條文他還是可以禁止他辯護是不是這樣"},{"start":438.291,"end":456.944,"text":"就是一現階段沒有這條法律的設計如果檢察官在偵查案件中發現律師有但書的這幾款事由是不是也可以立即就限制他?限制法上本來就可以限制法就可以了嗎?對,只是限制法他沒有賦予救濟的途徑被憲判幾號宣告違憲了限制法的確就有這個機制"},{"start":458.485,"end":486.055,"text":"所以嘛你為了要去救濟說你這個被限制或禁止於是有這個權利那但是跟要不要加這一條法條的一個設計這個就值得就是說你被限制或禁止你的救濟規定你可以另外再去立一個救濟的規定但是你有沒有必要去在這個法條裡面弄個第三項第四項這樣的一個規定有沒有必要因為你現在現行法制就有了嘛"},{"start":487.648,"end":510.998,"text":"公文報告,我剛才提到第三項部分我們是把現行的做法把它明文化了,把記錄證明文化,那第四項部分其實是讓被告的辯護權更加的再度獲得確保當辯護人被禁止的時候,甲官必須要在權力告知有關於緘默權有關於選用辯護權相關規定,讓被告可以再做一次的這個選任這是對被告再度更確認的保障"},{"start":511.658,"end":533.194,"text":"我當然了解你們的立場只是我覺得說這樣的法條的一個設計就會讓我們就又好像陷入一個漩渦裡面明明現在的規定就有了已經夠用了但是我們又去規定就去修法又把它加入這個第三項第四項原本就律師如果有這種情況就已經夠限制了就可以限制禁止他做辯護了"},{"start":534.747,"end":560.026,"text":"所以我的疑惑就是司法院版竟然沒有我會贊同司法院版我覺得司法院是不是應該當時那民主黨你再講清楚當時你們沒有這個版本沒有你們是有做什麼樣的考量是後來在會選的時候認為說行政院提出來是又更詳細啦又更詳細然後對整個人權的那個保障會更更有保障"},{"start":561.847,"end":577.973,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":590.737,"end":610.71,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":611.61,"end":622.42,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"}]}},{"id":"153840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819beed1c1bd52896ba59a48fe1a1d57c38dd6f040307a1001a21a9fc2fa37df4075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:54:26 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關鍵基礎設施）。請問NCC，你覺得台馬海纜該不該列入CI？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：跟委員報告，因為馬祖跟臺灣之間的海纜被漁船勾斷的次數太多了，也有一些事情，我是認為有必要把台馬海纜列入關鍵基礎設施，因為這個部分是電信管理法第四十二條的規定，需要由數位部來認定，我們尊重。"],["洪委員申翰：現在問題來了！現在問題來了！因為今天數位部不在，NCC現在很清楚表達其實應該列入關鍵基礎設施，由數位部以韌性保護的部分來去處理這個事情。現在我們看到5月15號國土辦有找了國安局、海巡署、數發部等單位其實討論過一次這個事情，當時有說由主管機關數發部與中華電信進行下一階段的評估，這場會議5月15號到現在其實已經將近快一個月的時間了，我拿到一份公文，數發部在上禮拜6月7號發一個文給中華電信，數發部說：請貴公司評估是否將國內海纜納入關鍵基礎設施範圍，並於2024年8月9號依附件格式填寫相關調查表。","中華電信，這是禮拜五的發函，昨天是第一個上班日，其實我的辦公室也跟中華電信去做詢問，中華電信現在給我的回答是，中華電信是一家民間公司，無權限決定，只能被動接受，我跟中華電信說，可不可以讓我們知道一下中華電信內部是哪一個單位在負責這件事情，中華電信回復我說不方便透露。林副總，現在可不可以回復了？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，我想中華電信對相關事項的評估跟決策有一定的流程，所以這可能不是哪一個單一單位對這個部分……"],["洪委員申翰：我現在問副總，你是代表你們董事長來的嘛？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["洪委員申翰：中華電信現在對於台馬海纜納入CI，你們的看法是怎樣？"],["林副總經理文智：就如同關鍵基礎設這一個部分，中華電信這邊都是配合相關法令做辦理……"],["洪委員申翰：不是啊，現在數位部請你們評估。"],["林副總經理文智：評估的……"],["洪委員申翰：看剛剛的那個公文，數位部請貴公司評估。"],["林副總經理文智：評估的部分因為文剛到本公司，我想相關的作業，我們會儘快展開，也跟委員報告，中華電信公司相關的決策事項，在整個經營團隊會做過討論之後，再做相關的回復跟說明。"],["洪委員申翰：林副總，這個會議是5月15號就開了，交由數位部跟中華電信兩個去做下一階段的評估，國安局也說應該，NCC也說應該。局長，我們現在看到變數位部跟中華電信兩個在互踢皮球，你覺得這是對於我們整體國安來說是好事嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就國安局角度來講，因為我們在跨部會的協調平臺，就是行政院的國土安全協調會報，我們可以出席，所以針對這個問題，假如有召開相關會報的話，我們會繼續來反映。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們剛才活生生看到中華電信跟數位部互踢皮球的過程，數位部發文了，中華電信說：對不起，我不便評估……"],["蔡局長明翰：應該還是會評估啦！它會評估……"],["洪委員申翰：你會評估嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：一定會評估。"],["洪委員申翰：那什麼時候可以給答案？"],["林副總經理文智：我們會依照函的時程，在時程內一定會做完相關的評估。"],["洪委員申翰：所以什麼時候可以給答案？林副總。"],["林副總經理文智：它目前的要求……"],["洪委員申翰：這個事情是我從去年3月，這不是新議題喔！去年3月臺馬海纜斷掉，連續斷兩次的時候，我們當時就問這件事情，已經事隔1年又3個月了！你們其實是相關的……你們應該是維護者的角色嘛，對不對？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["洪委員申翰：你們維護者的角色到底對這件事情的看法是什麼，現在沒有看法嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員……"],["洪委員申翰：如果我們每一個相關的國安上面的關鍵基礎設施維護者都是這個態度的話，我確實覺得這對我們整體的國安來說是堪慮的啊！"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，1年又3個月了喔！我們的維護者對這件事情還講不出看法，這不是新議題，不是1個月喔！"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，期程的部分我們一定會依照主管機關的要求去做配合。另外剛剛委員也提到中華電信是關鍵基礎設施的維護者，相關評估的部分納入關鍵基礎設施，中華電信公司就要確實做到這個關鍵基礎設施應該要做到的事項，我想這也是……","至於海纜的部分確實有它的一些特殊性，再加上地域是對岸漁船的密集活動區域，所以相關事項的評估，我們會從如何達成這個關鍵基礎設施的部分，做相關的評估跟提出說明……"],["洪委員申翰：副總，看一下這個，這是關鍵基礎設施盤點作業須知，我想大家應該很熟悉，個別設施的維護者不只是要打分數，它還要進行設施的分級建議，我其實不知道為什麼經過1年又3個月，對於臺馬海纜的問題、就國安上面的問題，目前中華電信還沒有辦法給予具體的建議、具體的態度，為什麼還沒有辦法說出來？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，我們會儘快地去處理這個事情。"],["洪委員申翰：你給個時間點吧？兩個禮拜？"],["林副總經理文智：我們會依照主管機關的期程去完成辦理。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我坦白說，我真的覺得這個過程，我之前也給國安局、給國土辦時間，現在還弄成這樣子，讓數位部跟中華電信之間互相踢來踢去，我真的認為這從國安專業的角度來說，我不知道你從專業角度怎麼看待這個過程。"],["蔡局長明彥：我當然瞭解委員的關切……"],["洪委員申翰：我真的非常非常遺憾。"],["蔡局長明彥：我完全瞭解委員的關切，就我們的通訊韌性跟安全來講，外離島的海纜確實是非常重要的議題，也謝謝委員長期的關注，那可能在評估過程當中，就我的理解，一個是事業機關要做它自己專業的評估，另外還要再到主管機關進行跨部會的協調，我剛剛也跟委員報告，假如有決策機關在所謂行政院的國土安全協調會報，我們能夠發聲的話，我們會把委員的這種關切帶到討論過程當中……"],["洪委員申翰：我知道你們已經跨部會協調了嘛？國土辦也開會了嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["洪委員申翰：所以國土辦的決議交由數位部跟中華電信來去做最後的評估跟判斷嘛？我之前也問過你，你也跟我說這個過程進入下一階段判斷，可是到目前為止，兩邊看起來是在踢皮球啊！我認為從國安局的角度應該清楚告訴數位部跟中華電信，這種踢皮球態度是不符合國安需求的，是違背我們在國安上面的需求，我覺得國安局要把這方面的專業講得非常清楚。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會從國安的角度來提醒啦！但因為現在的中華電信還在它的作業階段，可能這部分看怎麼樣配合主管機關的要求，儘快提出比較專業的評估。"],["洪委員申翰：去年3月陳院長就說應該納入啦！所有的人看CI相關的規定，都認為應該納入喔！經過一年，假設我們每一個關鍵基礎設施都要判斷1年3個月，甚至要判斷一年半，對於我們CI相關的維護跟風險管理，我真的會很擔憂。","今天是我在國防與外交委員會第3次質詢這件事情，我真的希望中華電信不能再用之前這種推卸的態度了，就用專業來判斷，如果你們國安專業不足以判斷的話，你們就該跟國安局請教、就該跟國土辦請教，而不是用便宜行事的作法，去年我們就講過這件事，之前中共的利劍行動也特別針對金門跟馬祖、針對我們的離島，聚焦在離島上面，假如他當時又再用各種方式把我們的海纜弄斷了，那這行政疏失是要誰來承擔？這國安上面疏失的責任是誰來承擔？是中華電信還是數位部還是國安局還是國土辦？我沒有辦法接受這種評估的時程啦！","林副總，麻煩你把這個訊息清楚地帶回你的公司裡面，可以嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天沒有做其他的要求，只希望在判斷這件事情上面，從國安專業的角度來去處理這個問題，而且這不是我第一次要求，在這個委員會我們就談了3次，我也不是特別針對中華電信，我只是覺得這麼清楚，所有的長官都認為該列入CI的這樣一件事情，卻在我們執行端出現這麼多的阻力，這我沒有辦法接受，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時6分）","繼續開會（11時13分）"],["主席：請各位回座，開始開會，我們現在開始開會。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1.7522187500000002,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":6.3590937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.01721875,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.15596875,"end":12.062843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.062843750000003,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.716593750000001,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.589718750000003,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":19.20096875,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.098468750000002,"end":27.419093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.680343750000002,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.781593750000003,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.96721875,"end":29.984093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":37.12221875,"end":38.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.15596875,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.197843750000004,"end":39.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start"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委員好"},{"start":20.356,"end":44.748,"text":"局長我其實我們一直在本委員會其實這個我記得之前我們已經兩度其實討論臺馬海蘭的事情那其實這個議題我也是在去年的時候3月當時就質詢過陳建仁院長那我今天為什麼還要再談這一題的原因是因為我其實感覺到"},{"start":46.348,"end":72.833,"text":"一個很明確而且正當性很高的國安的訴求主張但我感覺現在在行政部門裡面卻出現了一些阻力這是我今天為什麼還要持續在談這一題的原因這個我其實在去年3月的時候其實那時候我就很明確說"},{"start":74.643,"end":100.65,"text":"臺馬海蘭應該列入關鍵基礎設施去年3月的時候陳院長也表達應該那這一年多來我陸陸續續跟NCC包括跟海巡署包括也質詢過蔡局長蔡局長也跟我說你也覺得臺馬海蘭應該列入CI那NCC你覺得臺馬海蘭該不該列入CI"},{"start":102.812,"end":128.933,"text":"跟委員報告因為馬祖跟台馬之間的海嵐那個被漁船勾斷的次數太多了也有一些事情我是認為說有必要把它列入台馬海嵐要把它列入關鍵基礎設施那因為這個部分是電信管理法42條的規定需要由數位部來認定那問題來了現在問題來了因為今天數位部不在"},{"start":130.154,"end":150.64,"text":"NC現在當然很清楚表達其實應該列入關鍵基礎設施然後由數位部以韌性保護的部分來去處理這個事情現在我們看到5月15號國土辦有找了國安局、海巡署、速發部等單位其實討論過一次這個事情當時是有說由主管機關速發部與中華電信進行下一階段的評估"},{"start":153.161,"end":167.564,"text":"這場會議5月15號到現在其實已經將近快一個月的時間了我拿到一份公文下一張再下一張速發部在上禮拜6月7號發一個文給中華電信速發部說請貴公司評估是否將國內海嵐納入關鍵基礎設施的範圍並於2024年8月9號"},{"start":181.485,"end":208.465,"text":"副建格式填寫相關的調查表中華電信昨天這是禮拜五的發函那昨天是第一個上班日那我其實我的辦公室也跟中華電信來去做詢問那中華電信現在給我的回答是中華電信是一家民間公司無權限決定只能被動接受"},{"start":209.707,"end":225.166,"text":"那我跟中華電信說那可不可以讓我們知道一下中華電信是內部是哪一個單位在負責這件事情中華電信回覆我說不方便透露林副總現在可不可以回覆了"},{"start":227.11,"end":245.388,"text":"報告委員,我想中華電信對相關事項的評估跟決策有一定的流程,所以這可能不是哪一個單一單位對這一個部就能夠做出的決策。那你副總,那我現在問副總嘛,你是代表你們董事長來的嘛,那中華電信現在對於台馬海岸納入CI你們的看法是怎樣?"},{"start":246.89,"end":260.123,"text":"我想就如同關鍵基礎設施這一個部分呢：中華電信這邊都是配合相關的法律的指定不是啊 現在數位部請你們評估啊看看剛才的那份公文數位部請貴公司評估啊"},{"start":260.845,"end":262.646,"text":"林副總 這個會議是5月15號就開的交由數位部跟中華電信兩個去做下一階段的評估"},{"start":288.49,"end":311.822,"text":"國安局也說應該NCC也說應該局長我們現在看到變數位部跟中華電信兩個在互踢皮球你覺得這個事物對於我們整體國安來說是好事嗎對就國安局角度來講因為我們在跨部會的協調平台就是行政院的國土安全協調會報我們可以出席所以針對這個問題假如有召開相關會報的話我們會繼續來反映"},{"start":315.463,"end":343.691,"text":"我們剛才活生生看到中華電信跟數位部故踢皮球的過程嘛數位部發文了中華電信說對不起我不便評估應該還是會評估他會評估你會評估嗎一定會評估那什麼時候可以給答案我們會依照那個喊的這個時程在時程內一定會做完相關的評估所以什麼時候可以給答案李副總"},{"start":346.114,"end":368.259,"text":"這個事情是我從去年3月這不是新議題喔去年3月台馬海欄斷掉連續斷兩次的時候我們當時就問這件事情已經事隔一年又三個月囉你們其實是這相關的你們應該是維護者的角色嘛對不對你們維護者的角色到底對這件事情的看法是什麼現在沒有看法嗎"},{"start":370.703,"end":381.367,"text":"如果我們每一個相關的國安上面的關鍵基礎設施維護者都是這個態度的話我確實是覺得這對我們整體的國安來說其實是慷慮的局長一年又三個月了我們的維護者對這件事情還講不出看法"},{"start":393.726,"end":406.733,"text":"這不是新議題不是一個月又三不是一個月喔跟委員報告那個起承了部落想我明天會依照主管機關的要求去做配合另外剛剛委員也提到說中華電信是關潛技術設施的維護者"},{"start":408.854,"end":428.859,"text":"關於相關的評估的部分納入關鍵基礎設施中華電信公司就要確實做到這個關鍵基礎設施應該要做到的事項我想這也是海嶺的部分確實有它的一些特殊性那再加上這個地域是對岸漁船的密集活動區域所以相關的事項的評估我們會從如何達成這個關鍵基礎設施的維穩"},{"start":432.7,"end":460.791,"text":"做相關的評估跟提出說明蘇董看一下這個這是關於企圖設施盤點作業須知這我想大家應該很熟悉個別設施的維護者不只是要打分數他還要對於進行設施的分級建議我其實不知道為什麼經過一年又三個月目前中華電信還沒有辦法對於台馬海嵐的問題就國安上面的問題給予具體的建議具體的態度為什麼還沒有辦法說出來"},{"start":464.637,"end":491.658,"text":"我們會盡快的去處理這個事情到底你給個時間點吧兩個禮拜我們會依照主管機關的基層裡面去完成辦理那個局長我坦白說我真的覺得這個過程齁我之前也給國安局給國土辦時間現在還弄到是現在是這樣子讓數位部跟中華電信之間互相踢來踢去"},{"start":494.851,"end":519.559,"text":"我真的認為這是從國安專業的角度來說我不知道你從專業角度怎麼看待這個過程我當然了解委員的關切我真的非常非常遺憾完全了解委員的關切就我們的通訊韌性跟安全來講外離島的海嵐確實是非常重要的議題那也謝謝委員長期的關注那可能在評估過程當中我的理解一個是事業機關他要做他自己的專業的評估那另外還要再到主管機關進行跨部會的協調"},{"start":520.359,"end":547.967,"text":"那我剛剛也跟委員報告交友決策機關在所謂行政院的國土安全協調匯報我們能夠發聲的話我們會把委員這種的關切帶到討論的過程當中我知道你們已經跨部會協調了嘛國土辦也開會了嘛對所以國土辦的決議交由數位部跟中華電信來去做最後的評讀跟判斷嘛我之前也問過你嘛你也跟我說了這個過程進入下一階段判斷嘛可是到目前為止兩邊看起來是在踢皮球啊"},{"start":550.305,"end":575.624,"text":"我認為從國安局的角度應該清楚告訴數位部跟中華電信這種踢皮球的態度是不符合國安需求的是違背我們在國安上面需求的我覺得國安局要把這方面的專業要講得非常清楚我們會從國安的角度來提醒但因為現在的中華電信它還在它的作業階段那可能這一部分看怎麼樣配合到主管機關的要求儘快提出比較專業的評估去年3月陳院長就說應該納入"},{"start":577.737,"end":607.098,"text":"所有的人看這個CIA相關的規定都認為應該納入假如我們每一個關鍵基礎設施都要判斷一年三個月甚至要判斷一年半我其實會對我們這CIA相關的維護跟風險管理真的是會很擔憂的我今天在這邊是我們在國防外交委員會我第三次質詢這件事情我真的是希望中華電信不能再用之前這種推卸的態度了"},{"start":609.827,"end":630.805,"text":"就用專業來判斷如果你們專業不足以國安專業不足以判的話你們就該跟國安局請教就該跟國土辦請教而不是用便宜形式的做法去年我們就講這件事今年之前這個中共的利劍行動也特別針對"},{"start":633.483,"end":657.478,"text":"金門跟馬祖針對我們的離島聚焦在離島上面假如他當時又再把我們的海欄弄斷了用各種方式那這行政疏失是要誰來承擔這國安上面疏失的責任是誰來承擔是中華電信還是數位部還是國安局還是國土辦我沒有辦法接受這種評估的時程"},{"start":659.977,"end":678.792,"text":"林副總麻煩你把這個訊息清楚的帶回你的公司裡面可以嗎是我今天沒有做其他的要求只希望在判斷這件事情上面從國安專業的角度來去處理這個問題而且這也不是我第一次要求在這個委員會我們就談了三次我也不是特別針對中華電信"},{"start":681.172,"end":697.744,"text":"我只是覺得這麼清楚所有的長官都認為該列入CI的這樣一件事情卻在我們執行端出現這麼多的阻力這我沒有辦法接受啊謝謝好謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}},{"id":"153839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819261b35a611326616182e407f268492bcdd6f040307a1001a1d297194e58c514e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:53:04 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11:05:02","影片長度":"00:11:58","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:53:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:05:02+08:00","duration":718,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":579,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時53分）主席、各位列席委員、各位官員，大家早！主席，我想請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。虛擬資產訂立專法一直是全國關注的重點，因為它太容易左右我們的生活，以虛擬貨幣來講，它不是法定貨幣，因為就像央行總裁的回應一樣，虛擬貨幣無法調節、價格波動大、效率低、沒有求償管道，又容易被不法人士所利用、又是境外交易，或者是逃避一些法律規範等等，我想虛擬貨幣現在雖然是金管會的業務，但是因為沒有專法，不曉得是金管會轄下哪個機關權管，也無可監管，要用什麼樣的罰則來對虛擬貨幣犯罪的法令來做一個處置，因為我們的專法草案還沒有出來，現在只能委由通貨公會，即虛擬通貨公會，明天要成立嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["顏委員寬恒：是明天要成立。它作為一個過渡空窗期的自律規範，建立自律規範，剛剛也有委員分別都提到這些公會成員本身就是涉案的一些指標型當事人，這些自律規範又要由公會來制訂，到底公會對他們有多少約束的力量？如果他們不遵守這些自律規範，雖然他們要跟主管機關報備、要跟金管會報備，但是我想要請教自律規範的內容跟架構是什麼？金管會能夠要求到什麼樣的程度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的關心。剛剛委員其實提點的很多事情，確實是如此，比如說它到底是不是貨幣，我想貨幣在學理上有幾個要件，現在的虛擬資產都沒辦法吻合，所以這是大家很有爭議的事情，未來是不是，那還要看演進。","剛才有提到我們未來如何納管，我剛才在報告裡面有講到，我們現在是用堆積木的方式，一層一層的納管，剛剛講的自律規範只是我們堆疊積木的第二層，這個不是所有，比如說我們前面已經按照洗錢防制法進行洗防聲明，任何人要做這個業務，現在都要滿足洗錢防制法的規定。再來第二個才是剛才委員指導的，明天公會成立，開始有個對話窗口，在去年我們有頒訂滿明確的指導原則，我們希望它把這些指導原則直接納入到自律規範並加強管理，我們希望它能夠有自我的自律罰則，這只是積木的第二層；接下來第三層，我們接下來修洗錢防制法，課以個人幣商沒有登記的刑責；最後一層才是剛剛委員講的專法。這個專法，我們一層一層疊上去，希望對市場能夠好好地管理，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委，我想很多不肖業者為了躲避銀行法的規範，所以都用這種虛擬貨幣去做地下交易，金管會現在的動作，透過你剛剛提到的內容，你也做了一個說明，但是最重要的，為了要完善整個虛擬資產制度，還有很長的一段路，但是要快。第一個我們設立專法，要有一個專屬虛擬資產的主要負責機關，金管會對於設立虛擬資產管理局的態度如何？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在因為設局在很多地方，當然我們希望人力能夠擴編，不過這個牽涉到中央組織問題，還有修法問題，所以我們現在內部是由證期局來負責監管，我們也期待未來如果有社會共識的話，能夠加強這一塊，剛剛也有委員給我們指導，甚至朝向部的發展，當然未來如果能夠設局的話，我們也能夠爭取這樣的資源。"],["顏委員寬恒：我還是要不勝其煩地講，嚴謹並迅速地制定出專法是重點，在設局的部分，你們要怎麼樣修法、怎麼樣做，我想大家都會支持。","再來我要再說一個我覺得很有趣也是匪夷所思的問題，為了要阻詐、防盜刷，銀行公會27日已經提案到金管會，要將遊戲點數、錢包儲值、電子禮券等三大類的刷卡消費延遲24小時生效，設定門檻是3,000啦！我認為這個有點好玩、有點好笑啦！什麼叫好笑？3,000以下不受規範，這些詐騙集團狂刷2,900、2,800，還不是一樣嗎？對不對？你設一個3,000門檻在那邊，他不用3,000，而是刷2,900、2,800。為了要防止盜刷、犯罪等等，當然我們有很多的政策，也動用跨部會進行很多的方法去執行政策，但是到底有沒有一個強勢而有效的方法，而不是像這樣子，如果我們的防詐是1.5代，現在這些詐騙集團已經跑到3.0了，永遠高過我們很多，跑在我們前面，所以如何才能做一個強勢而有效的方法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。剛才也提到我們對於遊戲點數的部分，銀行公會提過來，當然在經過媒體報導以後，引發大家的關切，在我們委員會也有委員指正，實際上這個東西我們會再虛心地檢討應該怎麼實施，能夠兼顧到防詐以及消費權益，這部分我們還在研議當中。至於剛剛委員說希望我們未來更強而有力，這就是我們今天站在這邊報告最重要的目的，希望透過法規還有落實來執行，我們希望能做到這一點。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝主委，強勢有效的方法最重要。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝，主委請回。接下來請法務部徐次長。"],["主席：有請徐次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長好。次長，6月6號，臺北地院審查虛擬交易商，主謀採無罪答辯否認犯罪，他還強調虛擬貨幣交易是創新產業，但因為法規不齊全，他沒有詐欺的犯意。根據北檢起訴指控，當事人透過經營王牌交易所，將虛擬貨幣上架，操縱貨幣的價格，再由IMBA直銷團隊對外推銷，誆騙這些民眾購買投資，詐銷得手近8億元，有超過1,290位的被害人提告，涉及洗錢的金額超過22億。次長，這個部分不僅誇張，而且犯罪之後毫無悔意，然後用法規不齊全的理由要為自己脫罪。","我只是想要說，我知道調查局在今年3月的時候，執行這種虛擬幣電信網路打詐的作為跟掃蕩，但是我們現在假幣商真洗錢的犯罪組織非常的多，我們的打詐速度完全跟不上他們的創新速度，東邊補起來，西邊又破一塊。我很肯定我們警政署這些在第一線打詐的人員，但是如果沒有好的方法，強勢而有效的方法，剛剛一直在強調強勢而有效的方法，那我們到底還能做什麼？完全只能靠民眾自我的控管，自己去防止被詐騙，是這樣子嗎？次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，我想委員剛才講的很多都是對的方向，因為打詐絕對不是單方面的宣導，宣導是最重要的一環，就是要讓我們民眾有意識，接著跨部會要合作，跨部會合作就是加強監管的效率以及它的強度，從源頭就可以把這些吸收人民金錢的管道全部給堵起來。接著，我們結合所有的司法機關，我們努力地去查察這些詐騙的人員，我想這是多面向的，所有的人都要一起努力，不是只有靠檢察官或者是警察、調查局、調查官，我想只有靠我們是不夠的，要全民動起來。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，次長，我再問，最近我常常接到一些陳情，我們的這些選民直接接到電話，直接電話來就告訴你他是某地政士事務所打來的電話，然後地政士事務所問他要不要借款？需不需要貸款？讓當事人非常害怕，事務所怎麼會有他的資料？這些資料到底是從哪個地政事務所流出來的？不只是這個，你想一想，真正在銀行業，如果我們民眾去做貸款申請，結果受到詐騙集團的欺騙，還能透過協商或者是幫助當事人的方式，跟銀行請求減輕負擔、降低利息等等，但是這一些在外面從事這種私人企業的放貸，就是為了要賺錢啦！這個部分詐騙集團能夠拿到這些名單，往往都是因為有土地交易，這些人都需要現金，所以他被詐騙的機會非常的大。","主席，我再一下，快結束了。另外我們很多民眾也接到詐騙集團假冒是自來水公司的名義，發送催繳水費的簡訊，誘導民眾連結到一個偽造的官方網站，要求輸入信用卡等個資的問題。這個部分非常的嚴重啦，好不好？我想還是不厭其煩，要拜託警政署、相關機關要全力的來查緝防制。"],["徐次長錫祥：是，沒問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢。我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時15分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ 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委員好虛擬資產定力專法一直是全國關注的一個重點"},{"start":26.055,"end":51.718,"text":"那我想因為它太容易左右我們的生活以虛擬貨幣來講我們它不是法定貨幣但是因為就像央行總裁的回應一樣說虛擬貨幣它無法調節波動價格波動然後效率低沒有球場管道又容易變成是不法人事所利用然後呢又變成是境外交易或者是逃避一些法律規範的這些等等"},{"start":52.358,"end":67.876,"text":"那我想虛擬貨幣現在雖然是金管會的業務啦但是因為沒有專法那也不曉得說是金管會想要下哪個機關也無可監管然後呢這個要用什麼樣的法則來"},{"start":70.159,"end":77.265,"text":"對於這種虛擬貨幣犯罪的法令來做一個處置那因為我們的專法草案還沒有出來現在指令委由這個虛擬通貨公會"},{"start":85.593,"end":101.633,"text":"明天要成立嘛 對不對是的是明天要成立那它作為一個過度的一個空窗期的一個自立規範建立自立規範那剛剛有委員分別都提到說這些工會的成員本身就是涉案的一些指標型的一些當事人"},{"start":103.515,"end":104.797,"text":"金融監督管理委員會主席"},{"start":126.294,"end":151.843,"text":"要求的到什麼樣程度謝謝委員的關心剛剛委員其實提點很多事情確實是像比如說他到底是不是貨幣我想貨幣在學理上有幾個要件我想現在的虛擬資產都沒辦法吻合了所以這是大家很有爭議的事情那未來是不是那還要看眼鏡那剛才有提到說我們未來怎麼納管我剛才在那個報告裡面我們有講說我們現在是用堆積木的方式一層一層的納管"},{"start":152.943,"end":177.415,"text":"剛剛講的自律規範只是我們堆疊積木的第二層就是這個不是所有因為比如說我們前面已經按照《洗錢防制法》做洗房聲明任何人要做這個業務現在都要做要滿足我們《洗錢防制法》這個規定再來第二個才是剛剛委員指導的就是說明天工會成立工會成立開始有個對話的窗口這裡面我們在去年有頒訂的"},{"start":179.557,"end":204.199,"text":"這個蠻明確的指導原則我們希望他把這些指導原則直接納入到他的自律規範並加強管理我們希望他能夠有自我的自律法則這只是積木的第二層接下來第三層我們接下來修《洗錢防制法》科以所謂的個人避傷沒有登記的刑責最後一層才是我們講剛剛委員講的專法這個專法我們一層層疊上去希望對這個市場能夠好好的管理"},{"start":206.021,"end":218.507,"text":"主委,我想很多不肖的業者因為現在利用為了這個賭幣銀行法的規範所以都用這種虛擬貨幣去做一個地下的交易"},{"start":222.321,"end":240.499,"text":"金管會的現在的動作就是說透過你剛剛提到的這個你也做了一個說明但是最重要最重要還是要為了要完善整個虛擬資產的一個制度還有很長的一段路但是要快要快就是說我們一個設立專法要有一個專屬的虛擬資產的主要負責機關那這主要負責機關金管會對於說設立這個虛擬資產管理局"},{"start":247.432,"end":247.552,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":270.475,"end":292.983,"text":"因為我也有有有給我們那個指導甚至朝向部的發展當然未來如果能夠局的話我們也能夠爭取這樣的一個資源我還是不申請反而要講就是說嚴謹並迅速的制定出這個專法是重點然後呢社局的部分我們要怎麼樣修法怎麼樣這個都我想大家都會支持那"},{"start":293.903,"end":322.442,"text":"再來我要再說一個我覺得很有趣啦也是匪夷所思的一個問題因為為了要防這個主詐然後盜刷銀行公會27日已經提案到金管會要將這個遊戲點數還有錢包的儲值、電子禮券等三大類的刷卡消費延遲24小時生效設定的門檻是3000設定門檻是3000我認為這個是就是有點好玩啦有點好笑啦什麼叫好笑3000以下"},{"start":323.263,"end":343.204,"text":"不受規範那這些盜刷這些詐騙集團狂刷2900、2800還不是一樣嗎對不對你設一個3000門檻在那邊然後呢他不用3000他2900、2800所以這個東西我認為說當然我們設定了很多的這些這個"},{"start":346.599,"end":367.49,"text":"為了要防止盜刷、犯罪等等我們設定了我們有很多的政策然後也動用了跨部會的很多的這樣子的一個方法一個政策去執行但是到底有沒有一個強勢而有效的方法而不是做這樣子的一個其實如果現在這個詐騙1點如果現在是1.5被1.5帶的話我們這個如果我們防詐是1.5的話現在這些詐騙集團已經跑到3.0了"},{"start":375.774,"end":376.855,"text":"銀行公會提過媒體報導引發大家的關切"},{"start":395.654,"end":421.366,"text":"在我們委員會也有委員指證那實際上這個東西我們會再虛心的去檢討應該怎麼實施能夠兼顧到防詐以及我們消費權益這部分我們還在研議當中那至於說剛剛委員說希望我們未來更強而有力這就是我們今天站在這邊報告最重要的目的就希望透過法規還有我們的落實來執行我們希望能做到這一點"},{"start":421.991,"end":433.986,"text":"好 謝謝主委強勢有效的方法最重要好 謝謝主委請回那接下來請法務部我們的徐次長有許徐次長委員好次長好"},{"start":440.006,"end":454.936,"text":"市長那個6月6號我那個地院臺北地院審查虛擬交易商這個主謀採無罪答辯否認犯罪那他還強調說這個虛擬貨幣交易是創新產業因為法規不齊全他沒有這個詐欺的範疑"},{"start":461.54,"end":465.801,"text":"根據北檢起訴指控,當事人透過經營網牌等交易所將虛擬貨幣上架,操縱貨幣價格再由IMBA直銷團隊去對外推銷,謊騙這些民眾購買投資"},{"start":485.607,"end":495.856,"text":"詐騷得手近8億元有超過1290位的被害人提告涉及洗錢的金額超過22億所以次長這個部分不僅誇張我想就是說"},{"start":500.8,"end":514.85,"text":"犯罪之後毫無詭異毫無詭異然後用法規不齊全的理由要為自己脫罪那我只想要說就是說我這對阿局在今年3月的時候執行這種虛擬幣、電信、網路打詐的這些作為跟掃蕩"},{"start":519.853,"end":543.173,"text":"但是我們現在假避傷這起前的犯罪組織非常的多我們的打詐速度完全跟不上他們的創新速度東邊補起來西邊又破一塊那我很肯定我們警政署這些就是我們所有的這些在第一線打詐的這些人員在第一線在打擊詐騙這些人但是"},{"start":546.576,"end":563.371,"text":"如果沒有好的方法強勢而有效的方法那我們到底還能做什麼完全只能靠民眾自我的一個控管自己去防止被詐騙是這樣子嗎 市長"},{"start":565.232,"end":579.845,"text":"報告委員我想委員剛才講的很多都是對的方向因為打詐絕對不是單面的說宣導宣導是最重要的一環就是要讓我們的民眾有那個意識接著我們跨部會要合作"},{"start":580.365,"end":609.351,"text":"那跨部會合作就是加強監管的一個效率以它的強度那從源頭就可以把這些管道這個吸收人民金錢的這些管道全部給堵起來那接著當然就是我們結合所有的司法機關我們努力的去查查這些詐騙的人員我想這是多面向的所有的人都要一起努力不是只有靠檢察官或者是警察調查局調查官我想只有靠我們是不夠的要全民動起來"},{"start":610.977,"end":613.932,"text":"市長我再說最近我常常接到一些陳情"},{"start":616.209,"end":644.684,"text":"就是我們的這些選民他直接接到電話直接電話來就告訴你他是某某地政事務所打來的電話然後地政事務所問他要不要借款需不需要貸款讓當事人非常的害怕那他怎麼會有他的資料這些資料到底是從哪個地政事務所流出來的那不只是這個因為你想一想"},{"start":648.005,"end":673.711,"text":"這個真正的這個在銀行業如果我們民眾去貸款之後去做這個貸款申請然後結果受到詐騙受到外面這個詐騙集團的一個欺騙還能透過協商或者是這個幫助當事人的方式跟銀行請求減輕負擔降低利息等等但是這一些在外面從事這種私人企業的一個放貸就是為了要賺錢"},{"start":675.231,"end":689.819,"text":"那這個部分詐騙集團他能夠拿到這些地政室事務所的名單往往都是因為有土地交易那這些人都需要現金所以他被詐騙的機會非常的大這部分主席我再一下快結束了"},{"start":690.459,"end":716.951,"text":"那另外就是我們很多民眾也接到這種詐騙集團假冒是自來水公司的名義來發送這種吹角水廢的簡訊然後誘導民眾連結到一個偽造的官方網站要求輸入信用卡等各自的問題這個部分非常的嚴重啦好不好我想還是不勝其反要拜託警政署相關機關要全力的來查緝防制是沒問題好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153838","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819b7a6eea21e44788a98b2dfa55713766cdd6f040307a1001a3a4d20856f634afc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:50:31 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11:03:17","影片長度":"00:12:46","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:50:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T11:03:17+08:00","duration":766,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":613,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時50分）謝謝主席，有請秘書長跟次長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長、次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：兩位辛苦了！今天兩個主題就教於兩位，第一個，今天的主題是科偵法的立法，到底在立法體例上我們要做出什麼樣的抉擇；第二個議題，我會繼續針針國會調查權的行使事項再一次就教於兩位。我們上週的排案跟審查已經確立科技偵查及保障法授權三大打詐的新武器，GPS來追車手、M化車來定位機房、熱顯像儀可以測溫救人，這三大新型工具在委員會逐條審查中都確認是可以使用的新型武器，所以主體上是朝野一致、有共識的。在發動的程序上，如何能夠更強化對於人權的保障、對於通知當事人的作為，確實有一些小小的、還在釐清中的程序性問題，但是大方向上在上週的逐條審查大概都已經完備了，原本在野黨委員認為有爭議的偵查手段也都排除了，現在三大打詐利器入法，我剛剛聽了秘書長說的，司法院認為立專法是一個好的方向。","我今天要特別在這裡再釐清一下、再說明一下本席的個人立場，我認為讓科技偵查執法有據是我們討論的最主要目的，它要執法有據，讓所有偵測的證據都具有證據的效力，提升整個偵辦能夠定罰、判罰的基準，所以到底是要放在刑事訴訟法或是以專法為之？我認為這個事情沒有是非對錯，是一個政策面的抉擇，就是一個政策面的抉擇。在立法的體例上，其實過去以刑事程序特別法來作為這樣子的立法也有相關的體例，譬如說國民法官法，譬如說也在這次打詐四法當中的通訊保障及監察法，我看你們的報告裡頭還有把羈押法也放進去，所以體例上是有的，它不是一個唯一、不是一個新創事項。","第二個，在時程上，我個人認為這是關鍵，時程上如果要透過刑事訴訟法，它畢竟是跨院際的嘛！對不對？司法院主管必須要會銜司法院，所以在過去司法及法制委員會也好，在立法院立法修法的經驗裡頭，只要是跨院際，我們也常常argue啊！司法院跟法務部的立場又不一樣，所以跨院際的修法，立法本身的修法期程就更為緩慢，實在來不及啦！我們要快速地打詐，要讓科技偵查的新方法可以趕快上路，讓道高一尺可以破除魔高一丈，所以我也務實的認為特別法在時程上是可以快速到位的。當然還有一個，科技偵查本身具備的特殊性，如果從偵查機關需求面的角度來講，用專法是有助於建立一個專屬的法律體系架構，我個人認為這是一個政策的抉擇，沒有好壞，沒有是非對錯，而且我要說，主要的條文內容我們上週在科偵法專法的逐條都已經幾乎90%是完成審查，所以未來在協商上，我也希望修法能夠可以快速到位，也就是用一個新法的方式來立法，我這樣的論述，兩位都接受嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：贊同。"],["吳委員思瑤：來，次長。"],["黃次長謀信：法務部也贊同。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我個人是認為快、狠、準是我們現在要面對打詐最重要的事項，因此我希望趕快在朝野協商當中，各黨團協議出一個方向，我個人傾向認為立專法是需要的，在體例上、在時程上、在實務的需求上，它是更好的。","釐清了今天的主題，我還是要回到擴權法案，行政院已經提出覆議，然後總統核可了，已經在昨天送到立法院。我覺得網路上的公民朋友非常的關切，我個人會認為在未來覆議案的行使，甚或是未來的釋憲過程，這都是臺灣公民社會最好的一個民主教材，這都是讓全民一起來上一堂公民課，很多的年輕世代他們在網路上不斷地討論說，如果立法院不能好好討論就讓社會來討論。我認為這是這一次擴權法案的延長賽，在覆議或者是未來釋憲的過程當中，就讓公民來對話，讓公民針對這樣一個珍貴的民主教材，好好來進一步的思辨、論證。","但我也看到，針對通過了擴權法案之後，立法院到底如何來行使調查權呢？其實連國民黨內部的意見也不一致。回到憲法的相關規定，憲法第六十三條規範立法院的幾大權力，以及釋字第585號跟第729號，都再再告訴了我們，立法院行使的調查權是憲法所賦予必要之輔助性權力，它必須跟著憲法第六十三條與立法院本身的議案相關，所以它與職務、職權有重大關聯者，並非包山包海，並非什麼都可以以查弊之名，無限上綱的來啟動調查。釋字第729號更清楚地告訴我們，立法院行使調查相關的職權，對於偵查中的案件，自不得向其調閱相關卷證，也就是對於偵辦中的案件，立法院的那一條線要劃得很清楚，我必須再一次地把憲法的精神說明跟論證。因為現在在野黨有委員說是不是要在立法院設調查官，兩位的看法如何？為什麼立委說立法院要不要在修法之後，才說要不要來設調查官？"],["吳秘書長三龍：在司法院，我們司法行政的立場是共同的法律，大家共同遵守，就是說有憲法、法律，還有大法官釋字的相關解釋意旨，所以就按照這些綜合看怎麼處理，有些在我們司法行政大概也只能……"],["吳委員思瑤：司法院的立場就是尊重憲法的賦權嘛！對不對？調查權該屬於監察院的就監察院，檢調擁有的權力就是司法的權限嘛！","次長，既然有立委在討論立法院要不要成立調查官，是不是就足以來證明立法院沒有調查專業，立委本身在法律上、各方面，才要有設一個調查官之必要，你的看法呢？立法院有沒有比照檢察官的訓練、專業、調查的這種能耐？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為這涉及到大院的職權行使法，也非本部的職掌，本部的立場跟司法院一樣，我們就尊重大院的決定。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，你們都講得實在是很委婉，因為現在有藐視國會罪，都很委婉，我完全理解，站在憲法的角度就是我們共同的立場。但是釋字第585號也很清楚地說，特殊例外的情形，就特定事項之調查有委任非立法委員之人士來協助調查之必要時，就必須訂定特別法，就委任之目的、委任調查之範圍、受委任人之資格、選任、任期等人事組織事項、調查的權限等都必須有特別法的詳細規範，並藉以作為監督之基礎。換言之，如果立法院因應國會擴權法案的修法之後要增設調查官，這件事情本身要嘛就是二次修法，要嘛就要有特別的立法規定，我的解讀有沒有錯誤？不能以現在這個立法院職權行使法調查權的第四十六條、第四十七條到五十幾條，規定了之後馬上就自己天外飛來一筆，找了一群不知道有沒有調查能力的人，然後就來設調查官，專業的看法是什麼？藐視國會罪給你們的壓力很大，都不知道怎麼回答。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員剛剛提到的這一種就是說，有關的這些還是大家共同遵守啦，這些像憲法、法律，還有大法官會議解釋，這些都有規定看怎麼處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我的時間到了，我就ending在這裡，其實後面還有滿多地方沒有辦法論述，我點出這個問題，為什麼在野黨的委員對於在調查的過程，在立法院的調查過程，到底是要全程公開、透明，或是我們吳宗憲召委所說的，以他過去檢察官辦案的經驗，他認為要有一個檢察官辦案的模式，還是要有偵查不公開的狀況，然後不對媒體公開，這樣就有兩種不同的主張。所以說，這樣一個政治需求大於實質功能的國會調查權，其實它不折不扣的政治目的是大於實質的所謂調查的目的，所以在調查立場上如果是政治的企圖，先射箭再畫靶，這樣的調查權是好的嗎？而立法院正因為立委並沒有具備專業的查案能力，所以委員所說的，在野黨委員在論述的，是不是要有專業調查官設在立法院才會成為一個議題，然後就凸顯了這樣一個粗糙的修法完全沒有清楚的配套。當然還包括如果立法院同時啟動調查權的議案，涉及弊案本身就是你們檢調偵查中的案件，或者是立法院的調查結束之後有人去向檢方告發，其實這某種程度都會變相成為政治施壓司法的一種可能，而且是一種無限的複循環。","我今天在這裡，對於這個議題，我希望社會持續的討論，在覆議案的行使過程，以及大法官釋憲的過程裡頭，讓社會從這一次的國會擴權法案，我們共同更去瞭解立法院的議事運作，更去理解憲法所授權的五院的權力分立原則，還有立法院縱使應當擁有調查權，也應當要有清楚的正當法律程序，應當要符合相當的比例原則，還有法律的明確性事項。這些都是社會好好對話非常重要的標的，我認為這也是這一次國會擴權法案通過之後的政治延長賽所帶給社會正面的意義，就是繼續討論，真相跟正義是會被釐清的。好，辛苦兩位，也謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.78034375,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.63221875,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.926593750000002,"end":19.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.01096875,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.17971875,"end":20.90534375},{"speak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,"text":"然後熱顯像儀可以來測溫救人這三大的新型的工具在委員會主條審查當中都確認是可以使用的新型武器所以主體上是大家朝野是一致有共識的那對於發動的程序上如何能夠跟"},{"start":77.24,"end":90.686,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":93.807,"end":113.034,"text":"所以說已經排除了原本也有在野黨委員所認為爭議的偵查手段都排除了那現在三大打架利器入法所以呢我個人認為我剛也聽了秘書長說的你們認為司法院認為立專法是一個好的方向下一頁"},{"start":114.113,"end":141.918,"text":"我今天要特別在這裡再釐清一下再說明一下本席個人的立場我認為讓科技偵查執法有據是我們討論最主要的目的他要執法有據讓他所有偵測的證據都具有證據的效力來提升整個偵辦能夠定罰判罰的基準所以呢到底是要放在刑事"},{"start":143.278,"end":163.746,"text":"訴訟法或是專法為之我認為這個事情是沒有是非對錯就是一個政策面的抉擇就是一個政策面的抉擇在立法的體力上其實過去以刑事程序特別法來作為這樣子的立法也有相關的體力比如說國民法官法"},{"start":164.426,"end":178.202,"text":"例如說也在這一次打炸司法當中的通訊保障及監察法好不好我看你們的報告裡頭還有把這個羈押法也放進去所以體力上是有的它不是一個唯一不是一個新創事項"},{"start":179.984,"end":205.004,"text":"二）在時程上我認為這是關鍵我個人認為時程上如果要透過刑事訴訟法它畢竟是跨院計的嘛對不對你司法院主管你必須要會嫌司法院所以在過去司法法制委員會也好在立法院立法修法的經驗裡頭只要是跨院計我們也常常 argue啊司法院跟法務部的立場又不一樣"},{"start":205.965,"end":228.604,"text":"所以跨院級的修法、立法本身它的修法期程就更為緩慢。現在沒戶期啦。我們要快速的去打詐,要讓科技偵查的新方法可以趕快來上路。讓道高一尺可以破除魔高一丈。所以我也務實的認為特別法在時程上是快速可以到位的。"},{"start":229.785,"end":248.707,"text":"當然還有一個科技偵查他本身具備的特殊性如果從偵查機關的需求面的角度來講那用一個專法是有助於建立一個專屬的法律的體系架構我個人認為這是一個政策的抉擇沒有好壞沒有是非對錯"},{"start":250.129,"end":264.852,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五"},{"start":275.592,"end":297.004,"text":"法務部也贊同所以我個人是認為快、很準是我們現在要面對打架最重要的事項所以我希望趕快在朝野協商當中各黨團來協議出一個方向我個人傾向認為立專法是需要的在體力上、在時程上、在食物的需求上它是更好的下一頁"},{"start":298.004,"end":299.585,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案．刑事訴訟法部分條文"},{"start":327.885,"end":348.949,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":356.86,"end":368.954,"text":"但我也看到針對通過了擴權法案之後立法院到底如何來行使調查權呢?其實連國民黨內部的意見也不一致喔。下一頁。"},{"start":370.717,"end":398.592,"text":"回到憲法的相關規定憲法六十三條規範立法院的幾大權力以及釋字五八五號跟七二九號都再再告訴了我們立法院行使的調查權是憲法所賦予的所必要之輔助性權力他必須跟著憲法第六十七、六十三條立法院本身的議案相關"},{"start":399.833,"end":414.77,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第十五條之一、第十五條之一、第十五條之一、第十五條之一、第十五條之一、第十五條之一、第十五條之一、第十五條之一"},{"start":414.79,"end":434.615,"text":"三十九號更清楚地告訴我們立法院行使調查相關的職權對於偵查中的案件自不得向其調閱相關卷證也就是對於偵辦中的案件立法院的那一條線要畫得很清楚我必須再一次地把憲法的精神再一次說明跟論證下一頁"},{"start":436.502,"end":444.89,"text":"所以說呢因為現在這個黨有委員說是不是要在立法院設調查官兩位的看法如何"},{"start":450.038,"end":465.62,"text":"為什麼立委說立法院要不要在立法之後、修法之後才說要不要來設調查官?在司法院我們司法行政的立場是和這個共同的法律大家共同遵守"},{"start":466.561,"end":483.512,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":483.632,"end":505.533,"text":"二）司法院的立場就尊重憲法的賦權嘛對不對?調查權該屬於監察院的就監察院那檢調擁有的權利就是司法的權限嘛來那次長既然有立委在討論說立法院要不要成立調查官是不是就是足以來證明立法院是沒有調查的專業立委本身在法律上各方面"},{"start":506.454,"end":525.101,"text":"才要有設一個調查官之必要。」你的看法呢?立法院有沒有比較檢察官的訓練專業調查的這種能耐?各位報告因為這涉及到是大院的職權刑事法也非本部的執掌那本部的立場跟司法院一樣我們就尊重大院的決定"},{"start":526.343,"end":549.008,"text":"你們都講的實在是很委婉因為現在有藐視國會罪都很委婉我完全理解站在憲法的角度就是我們共同的立場但是釋字585號也很清楚的說特殊例外的情形就特定事項之調查由委任非立法委員之人士來協助調查之必要時就必須來訂定特別法"},{"start":550.968,"end":560.556,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十"},{"start":580.472,"end":594.346,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":601.687,"end":623.76,"text":"二）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百二十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":626.562,"end":639.427,"text":"我點出這個問題為什麼在野黨的委員對於在調查的過程在立法院的調查過程到底是要全程公開透明或是我們吳宗憲、張偉說的他過去檢察官辦案的經驗他認為要有一個檢察官辦案的模式還是要有偵查不公開的狀況然後不對媒體公開就有兩種不同的主張所以說這樣一個政治需求大於實質功能的國會調查權"},{"start":654.392,"end":657.498,"text":"其實他不折不扣的政治目的是大於實質的所謂調查"},{"start":660.957,"end":680.302,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":689.384,"end":704.691,"text":"當然還有包括如果立法院同時啟動了調查權的議案必案本身涉及必案本身就是你們檢調偵查中的案件或者是立法院的調查結束之後有人去向檢方告發"},{"start":705.811,"end":733.748,"text":"其實這都某種程度就會變相成為政治施壓司法的一種可能而且是一種無限的復循環我今天在這裡我想這個議題我希望社會持續的討論在復議案的行使的過程以及大法官釋憲的過程裡頭讓社會從這一次的國會擴權法案我們共同更去了解立法院的議事運作更去理解憲法所授權的五院的權力分立的原則"},{"start":734.788,"end":763.908,"text":"還有立法院縱使應當擁有調查權他應當有清楚的政官法律程序應當要符合相當的比例原則還有法律的明確性的事項這些都是社會好好對話非常重要的標的也是我認為就是這一次國會擴權法案通過之後的政治延長賽所帶給社會正面的意義就是繼續討論真相跟正義是會被釐清的好辛苦兩位也謝謝教委"},{"start":764.548,"end":764.889,"text":"四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之"}]}},{"id":"153837","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153837","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819ea98e50d8bfd852a25a148732a468ab6dd6f040307a1001a47742d001cea1c075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:48:37 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10:59:53","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:48:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:59:53+08:00","duration":676,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時48分）謝謝主席，我請法務部、警政署。"],["主席：我們先請法務部、警政署兩個單位，謝謝。"],["郭司長永發：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：司長好。今天我們是進行毒品防制成效的報告，從報告的數據上看起來，我們毒品防制是有成效的，但民眾可能會覺得很無感。因為毒品案件不單是路邊攔查都查得到，甚至就在臺北市政府，竟然有公務員在臺北市政府的大門口做毒品交易，所以大眾看到這個新聞當然是覺得毒品非常地猖獗！連臺北市政府裡面都有人在販毒。北市府這起案件，當然現在已經交給司法處理，本案嫌犯的毒品來源是他的男朋友，這個我覺得非常值得關注，因為這不是一個個案。","衛福部其實做過分析報告，女性藥物成癮者有三分之二的毒品來源是來自於男友、同居人或者伴侶，這跟男性的毒品來源很不一樣。所以我想請問，因為過去也有專家建議，在你們的會報資料裡面看過，有建議我們要做性別差異化的毒品防制，這個我們在實務上有沒有開始在進行？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，針對這個議題，有關女性對於其伴侶有毒癮，在情感依附及暴力脅迫、暴力控制的情況之下，高檢署已經有幾個具體措施要各地檢署落實執行。第一個，結合女性藥癮團體規劃緩起訴處分的課程，簡單講就是要讓有藥癮或毒癮的女性能夠遠離其男伴，予以諮商、緩起訴的課程，讓他能夠戒毒。其次，運用女性親密關係的需求，強化家庭、伴侶的支持系統。這些毒癮或藥癮者能夠戒癮成功，其實最大的因素還是家庭及伴侶的支持力量，這部分就透過我們毒防基金的協助，包括更保的協助，加強其家庭支持和伴侶的支持。此外是開發女性藥癮收容處所，現在開發了9處，就是為了要讓他遠離其生活圈，包括前面講的有毒癮的男性伴侶，所以開發9處收容處所，能夠在這端安置他。再來就是跟矯正機關結合的技能訓練，以及有關於他懷孕期間藥癮的部分，地方政府能夠提供產檢以及醫療服務，這是目前我們在執行的狀況。"],["吳委員沛憶：簡單來說是要幫助他能夠分手嘛！"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是分手之後，心理的支持、社會的支持，這幾年整個新世代反毒的綱領，最重要的就是導入治療、導入社工相關的支持，要能夠提供。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：我想後續我們要有一個成效的分析，看看哪些作為是有效的。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：臺北市政府裡面有毒品交易，這個駭人聽聞！"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們甚至還看到，有些縣市有毒品熱點，像我就收到陳情，苗栗有一家「阿帕契電子遊藝場」被查獲的毒品案件是數十次，判決書上面都有記載，很多人約好就在阿帕契電子遊藝場裡面買毒、販毒。所以我想詢問法務部，我們對於這種毒品的交易熱點，這個可以說就是熱點嘛！多次發生、多次查獲……"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：但查獲之後還不斷發生毒品交易的熱點，我們有沒有策略能夠加強查緝？你們有沒有統計這些毒品交易的熱點？"],["郭司長永發：毒品交易熱點的查緝，警方在掃蕩規劃的時候就會把它規劃進去。毒品危害防制條例第三十一條之一就特定場所有規範，它本身被認定為特定場所就必須要自主管理，有通報義務，如果違反了這個規定，它要被課予行政罰鍰。所以針對熱區的……"],["吳委員沛憶：司長，我講的阿帕契的這個案子，你知不知道、有沒有聽聞？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告……"],["吳委員沛憶：因為很多傳聞說有沒有包庇的情事，為什麼多次發生、多次查獲，還持續發生毒品交易的案件？所以我要請你們特別注意。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為全國各縣市可能都有相關的毒品交易熱點。"],["郭司長永發：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：就我所知這個個案，它是跟人家租的，房東也相當困擾。所以請你們務必依法查緝，如果有包庇情事，相信我，絕對跟你們追究到底！好不好？"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們的新世代反毒綱領2017年開始推動，政府總共投入的經費有250億，金額這麼高，除了緝毒之外，也包括成癮治療及家庭支持，我們投入這麼大量的資源，社會上一定會想問我們成果在哪裡？我看了一下統計數據，毒品最高峰的那一年是在2015年。這十年來我們進行毒品防制之後，司長，毒品施用比例有沒有下降？"],["郭司長永發：有下降很多，而且還逐年在下降中，至少這樣看下來就下降了一半，這個我們持續在努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我看了你們今天的報告，有施用人數的部分，但我認為要看成效，一個是初犯人口有沒有下降，我們希望讓初犯的人減少，因為他進來之後可能就是一個迴圈。你們有沒有初犯人口的統計？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，有關於整個毒品偵查的收案量，在107年，初犯的毒品施用人口之占比是23.1%，但112年的占比已經掉到18.7%，簡單講是掉了5%。初犯的施用毒品人口數自107年至112年掉了5%，我相信這個成效是逐漸呈現的。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，甚至我幫你統計了，十年以來，施用毒品的初犯人數下降超過六成。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：還有一個要關注的指標是再犯率，再犯率有沒有下降？你們有沒有統計數字？因為報告裡面都沒有。"],["郭司長永發：再犯率的部分應該也有下降，不過這個我……"],["吳委員沛憶：我跟你們調了資料，毒品再犯率跟前一期相比，一、二級毒品部分下降了將近五成以上。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：三、四級毒品部分也下降。但我很關注的是兒少案件的數字，兒少吸食毒品再犯率下降的比例反而成效比較小。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個我覺得我們要非常非常地關注，因為兒少毒品防制也是我們的重點工作。"],["郭司長永發：是，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：目前針對兒少毒品防制有沒有相關的措施在進行？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，有關於兒少部分，因為我們「施用毒品者再犯防止推進計畫」整個包括成年、兒少，兒少是另外區隔一塊來推廣。而有關於追蹤施用人數，這個計畫是從111年8月份開始執行，要追蹤兩年，下降的目標值是1.5%。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。兒少毒品防制，少輔會很重要。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我要請問警政署，因為就少輔會，我們一直關切的是人力不足、開案數太少，之前你們告訴我們說人力──少輔會的社工要補充，今年的人數有沒有補足了？"],["蔡警政監坤益：目前全國少輔會的人力已經達到268人，較社安網計畫補助前的124人已經大幅增加了116人，人力目前應該尚符合輔導的工作。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，有沒有預計人力要再提升？"],["蔡警政監坤益：目前……"],["吳委員沛憶：目前階段性補充到……"],["蔡警政監坤益：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，人力補充之後，我們要看你們業務的成果。"],["蔡警政監坤益：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：很重要的是，我看去年12月的毒品防制會報當中，警政署提到「現行非在學者施用第三、四級毒品，由少輔會來做輔導，在學部分是由學校做，相關分工會再跟教育部進行協調」。坦白說看到這個報告我相當訝異，因為少輔會新制去年上路，對不對？"],["蔡警政監坤益：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：上路之前我們已經籌備了3、4年了，少輔會新制最重要的就是做橫向的溝通協調平臺，這個問題怎麼會等到上路之後才要再協調！我現在請問，跟教育部協調了沒有？"],["蔡警政監坤益：目前三、四級毒品，就是由我們少輔會來輔導，另外……"],["吳委員沛憶：在校學生呢？"],["蔡警政監坤益：另外有春暉專案。我們會利用春暉專案，還有另外……"],["吳委員沛憶：也是由少輔會來進行輔導？"],["蔡警政監坤益：是。另外，本署在專案報告的書面中提到，我們有進行三個層級的互相聯防，情資會互換，包括一些相互的情資，也會提前把相關情資給教育單位提前輔導，我想相關的聯繫機制目前是……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以已經協調完成了？"],["蔡警政監坤益：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這個報告要出來。"],["蔡警政監坤益：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：你們報告裡面都沒有寫。"],["蔡警政監坤益：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：報告再提供給我們。"],["蔡警政監坤益：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們就休息5分鐘。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。接下來我們請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.06471875,"end":4.941593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.869093750000001,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.04159375,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.235343750000002,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.22659375,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.817218750000002,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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吳委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘 謝謝謝謝主席 我請法務部警政署好 我們先請法務部警政署兩個單位 謝謝委員好 司長好"},{"start":20.154,"end":31.027,"text":"今天我們是進行毒品防治成效的報告那從報告的數據上看起來我們毒品防治是有成效的但是民眾可能會覺得很無感因為毒品案件不但是路邊攔查都查得到"},{"start":37.714,"end":55.533,"text":"甚至呢就在我們臺北市政府竟然有公務員在臺北市政府的大門口來做毒品交易所以大眾看到這個新聞當然是覺得毒品非常的唱絕啊連臺北市政府裡面都有人在販毒"},{"start":56.694,"end":78.176,"text":"北市府這起案件當然現在已經交給司法來處理本案的嫌犯他的毒品來源是他的男朋友他的男友那這個我覺得非常值得關注因為這不是一個個案衛福部其實有做出過分析報告女性藥物成癮者有三分之二"},{"start":79.257,"end":97.696,"text":"這個來源是來自於男友、同居人或者是伴侶這個跟男性的毒品來源是會很不一樣的所以我想要請問因為過去也有專家建議過我在你們的匯報資料裡面有看過有建議我們要來做性別差異化的毒品防治這個我們在實務上有沒有開始在進行了"},{"start":102.088,"end":117.126,"text":"跟委員報告,這個針對這個議題就是有關於這個女性伴侶對於她的伴侶有這個毒癮有這個情感依附跟暴力的這個的脅迫的情況之下暴力控制情況之下其實高檢署已經這個有幾個"},{"start":119.409,"end":127.375,"text":"具體措施要各地檢署來落實執行。第一個就是包括結合女性藥癮團體規劃緩起訴處分的這個課程簡單的講就是要讓這個藥癮或毒癮的女性能夠遠離她這個男伴以這個諮商其他這個有這個緩起訴的課程來讓她"},{"start":143.165,"end":145.206,"text":"來加強他的家庭支持及伴侶支持"},{"start":172.455,"end":192.315,"text":"再來就是開發女性藥品收容處所現在開發的9處就是為了要讓她遠離這個她的生活圈包括前面講的這個有這個毒癮的男性伴侶所有開發9處的這個收容處所能夠安置她在這段安置她"},{"start":194.117,"end":211.509,"text":"再來就是有關於這個矯正機關的跟矯正機關結合的技能訓練那再來就是有關於他懷孕的期間要引的連結地方政府能夠提供醫療的產檢以及這個醫療的服務這個現在目前我們在執行的這個狀況簡單來說是要幫助他能夠分手嗎?"},{"start":218.354,"end":240.63,"text":"但是分手之後心理的支持和社會的支持我們這幾年其實我們整個新世代反毒的綱領最重要的就是導入治療導入社工相關的支持要來提供所以我想這個後續我們要有一個成效的分析來看看哪些作為是有效的那台北市政府裡面有毒品交易這個駭人聽聞"},{"start":243.624,"end":260.162,"text":"我們甚至還有看到有些縣市是有毒品熱點像我就有收到澄清苗栗有一家阿帕契電子油液廠被查獲的毒品案件是數十次那這個判決書上面都有記載"},{"start":262.196,"end":269.781,"text":"很多人是約好就在阿帕契電子遊藝場裡面來買毒來販毒所以我想要詢問法務部我們對於這一種毒品的交易熱點這個可以說就熱點嘛多次發生多次查獲但是查獲之後還不斷發生毒品交易的熱點我們有沒有這個策略能夠來加強查緝"},{"start":286.773,"end":288.794,"text":"您們有沒有去統計這些毒品交易的熱點?"},{"start":304.52,"end":305.781,"text":"市長我講的阿帕契這一案你知不知道?"},{"start":322.571,"end":339.502,"text":"有沒有聽聞?因為很多傳聞說有沒有包庇的情勢為什麼多次發生多次查獲還持續發生有毒品交易的案件所以我要請你們特別去注意因為這是全國可能各縣市都有這樣相關的毒品交易熱點就我所知這一個個案他這個也是跟人家租的所以房東也相當困擾所以請你們務必"},{"start":349.368,"end":351.009,"text":"新世紀反毒綱領2017年開始推動政府總共投入的經費250億這麼高額的金額"},{"start":370.697,"end":370.717,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":382.211,"end":407.006,"text":"看了一下統計的數據我們毒品的高峰年最高峰的那一年是在2015年也就是我們這10年來我們目前的毒品防制毒品的使用比例市長有沒有下降有下降很多而且還主連在下降著至少這樣看下來叫下降一半下降一半那這個我們持續在努力著"},{"start":409.068,"end":416.697,"text":"我看一下你們今天的報告有這個使用人數但我認為要看成效其實一個是這個出犯人口有沒有下降因為出犯的人是我們希望防止當出犯的人減少因為他進來之後可能後面就是一個迴旋你們有沒有出犯人口的統計"},{"start":427.829,"end":438.001,"text":"107年其實有關於整個偵查毒品偵查的一個收案量在107年是這個出犯的毒品是用人口是佔比23.1%"},{"start":441.084,"end":441.644,"text":"我相信這個成效是逐漸呈現的了"},{"start":463.098,"end":475.869,"text":"甚至如果我幫你統計10年以來毒品出犯人數下降的是超過6成那還有一個要關注的指標是你的再犯率再犯率有沒有下降你們有沒有統計數字報告裡面都沒有啊"},{"start":482.093,"end":504.183,"text":"我跟你們調了資料啦你的毒品再犯率前第一期跟第一期相比起來一二級毒品你是下降了將近五成以上三四級毒品也下降但是反而我很關注的一個數字兒少的案件在你的下降的再犯率兒少毒品再犯率的案件下降的比例反而是"},{"start":505.447,"end":505.927,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":536.012,"end":564.731,"text":"這個計劃是從111年的8月份開始執行要追蹤兩年那我們這個下降的目標值是1.5%好 我們這個兒少毒品防制少福會很重要所以我要請問警政署因為少福會我們一直關切的是人力不足開案數太少那之前你們告訴我們說人力要來補充我們少福會的社工嘛我們今年的補充人數有沒有補足了呢"},{"start":566.273,"end":567.114,"text":"我們有沒有預計人力要再來提升?"},{"start":586.445,"end":613.344,"text":"目前階段性補充到底人力補充之後我們要看你們的優惠的成果很重要的是我看我們在去年12月毒品防制會報當中警政署提到現行非在學者施用第三次級毒品是由你們少府會來做輔導那如果是在學的話如果在學是由學校來做輔導那相關的分工你們要再跟教育部來進行協調"},{"start":615.486,"end":633.121,"text":"坦白說我看到這個報告相當壓抑因為少府會新制去年上路嘛對不對上路之前我們已經籌備了三四年了欸少府會新制最重要的就是做橫向的溝通協調平台這個問題怎麼會等到上路之後才要再來協調我現在請問跟教育部協調了沒有"},{"start":635.971,"end":645.393,"text":"目前三四級毒品就是由我們少福會來做輔導那另外在校學生呢有春暉專案我們會利用春暉專案還有另外也是由少福會來進行輔導另外本署在這個專案報告裡面有書面資料有提到我們有進行三個層級的互相聯訪就情資會互換包括一些這個相互情資然後這個也會期前這個把相關的情資給這個教育單位來做一個期前的輔導我想相關的聯繫機制是目前是"},{"start":665.077,"end":665.257,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153836","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153836","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193b5b11f1a5d8d8460fec08313b105ec0dd6f040307a1001aca7091789dec401d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:47:57 - 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share資源給政府使用或企業使用，我都覺得可以，沒有不行，你剛剛提到經濟部有另外的算力中心計畫，你再提供資料給我，因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我要講的狀態是，目前臺灣這幾個重要的超級電腦當中，排名第二個是氣象署的超級電腦，第三個是台灣杉二號，目前是全世界排名第106，它剛成立的時候是排名第20，本來是很好的狀態，現在完全往後退了。我們接下來看，臺灣排名比較前面的這些超級電腦，有兩個是氣象署的，有兩個是國網中心的，一個是ASUS，另外一個是輝達，大概是這樣。以這個部分來看，我覺得臺灣的算力其實是明顯不足，我剛剛舉這個例子，前年我在質詢國網中心預算的時候就覺得這個部分是不夠的，雖然今年的預算有增加百分之十幾，可是金額還是非常小，對於臺灣要成就一個算力中心，我覺得是非常不夠。所以我希望國發會主委能夠橫向聯繫，和經濟部、國科會一起來提升，檢討怎麼讓臺灣的算力是足夠的，因為當算力不夠的話，要發展AI其實是緣木求魚，我在這邊特別提出這個部分。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我順便補充一下，現在國科會在沙崙規劃了一個超級電腦中心，可以提供超過100Pflop/s，另外，在晶創計畫也會再往上加，應該會額外增加一百多Pflop/s。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你們在晶創計畫中要成立新的算力中心，對不對？在晶創計畫10年的過程當中，你們要建立兩個算力中心，國科院副主委，對不對？"],["林副主任委員法正：跟委員報告，晶創是未來5年我們會增加100個Pflop/s，另外，我們也會在沙崙積極再蓋一個超級電腦中心，就是為了發展AI，以上報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，這個部分我們就拭目以待。接下來，我還是要特別提到電力，事實上算力其實就是電力，我要特別問一下郭部長，坦白說，你在就職之前來拜訪的時候就特別提到，我們也見諸媒體，你覺得電力提供充足是最重要的關鍵，從企業界來看，一定需要有電力，當時你也提到核三延役是選項之一，到時候如果不夠的時候，核三延役。可是你吃了一頓飯之後，我就發現變了，我要講一個重點，說實話，你從企業界來接這個位置，大家對你有很多的期待，因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念和務實的態度引進政府部門，所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情。我要特別講，其實對於核能的狀態，整個世界也都在改變，你上次有回答我，你們也在關注很多新科技的部分，至少目前為止，在發展高科技產業中，包括微軟、Amazon、OpenAI，他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站，就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常重要。你從高科技來，我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實，你去吃了飯之後跟我們講現在電力是夠的，未來也都會夠，即使碰到了AI的爆炸期之後還是夠，我希望你到時候可以到本辦公室做更細部的說明。我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵，因為你去吃了飯之後，政策改變的時候，很多竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久，說實話，因為他們覺得你會不適應，可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變，針對這個部分你可不可以簡單做一個回應？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，核三的問題是有很多假設性和前提，我可能說話不夠精準，不過這部分的報告，我會更精準來跟委員報告。關於新的核能，剛才你所指導的三家公司是第四代核能，我們對新的核能科技會持續觀察、持續注意，如果它能夠得到國人的同意，我想我們會有一些考慮。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對第四代核能，你反而覺得是一個可以考慮的方向，我再補充一個重點，美國很重要的財經媒體CNBC今天也特別報導臺灣面臨缺電的問題，當全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業，表達支持AI的時候，我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的特別產業，所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心臺灣電力不夠的時候，我希望部長能夠加快去做一些調整，到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的報告，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝，以上。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在休息3分鐘。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時6分）"],["主席：好，謝謝，大家辛苦了，我們繼續開會，請就座。","現在請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":1.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.81971875,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.20221875,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.51346875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.15034375,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.988468750000003,"end":68.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.28596875000001,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.96659375,"end":115.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.41784375,"end":116.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.04221875,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.80534375,"end":123.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.46721875,"end":142.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.55721875,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.72159375,"end":145.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.64534375,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.59909375,"end":171.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.61596875,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.73409375,"end":192.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.33846875,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.66534375,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.15096875,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.92721875,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.02846875,"end":293.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.19596875,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.03471875,"end":300.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.53221875,"end":305.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.34596875,"end":313.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.37971875,"end":307.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.35409375,"end":309.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.45471875000004,"end":312.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.63596875,"end":318.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.70284375,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.80534375,"end":337.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.59846875,"end":339.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.43784375,"end":343.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.25159375000004,"end":346.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.28471875,"end":392.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.66159375,"end":393.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.96096875,"end":394.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.07471875000005,"end":405.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.72284375000004,"end":420.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.55159375000005,"end":422.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.20534375000005,"end":424.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.14596875,"end":474.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.16346875000005,"end":476.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.58534375000005,"end":481.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.96409375,"end":490.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":487.63409375000003,"end":488.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.95846875,"end":500.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":500.44221875000005,"end":500.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":501.15096875,"end":503.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.02409375,"end":503.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":503.61471875,"end":503.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.66534375000003,"end":504.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.97721875,"end":518.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.71846875,"end":515.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":518.9709687500001,"end":528.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.5390937500001,"end":593.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.16596875,"end":616.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":617.75721875,"end":629.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.02971875,"end":629.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":629.04659375,"end":629.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":629.45159375,"end":629.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.4853437500001,"end":644.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.8640937499999,"end":636.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.9597187500001,"end":646.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.7822187500001,"end":650.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.91659375,"end":664.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.5515937499999,"end":664.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":664.85534375,"end":664.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.87221875,"end":665.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":665.00721875,"end":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一個是算力 一個是電力這三立我覺得是發展我們AI很重要的三個不同的領域那我在想說我目前因為很多委員同仁也都提到了人力跟電力的一個部分那我覺得這個部分我想先從算力這邊來切入算力這邊比較少人講"},{"start":94.474,"end":123.573,"text":"那我這邊也要特別先問一下國防會主委這邊因為我們在講發展AI當中的時候可是好像沒有看到一個從政府的一個角度對於整個國家算力提升的部分有一個很具體的一個做法這個部分有沒有一些具體的後續要去做的部分那個主委這邊可以先講一下報委員這個分工上能不能請國科會來他主導我請他是不是先做說明我再補充"},{"start":124.82,"end":139.168,"text":"讓國科會做說明是不是這個部分我本來是要講說整個AI相關的部分因為算力是整個AI裡面很重要的一環那整個AI這個部分的時候如果說你要讓國科會這邊先講的時候也沒問題我想說讓國科會這邊先來回應一下"},{"start":143.837,"end":162.227,"text":"那個跟委員報告目前整個國網的算力大概是36的Peta Flow的PF那相較於這個韓國跟日本比起來的確是差很多現在韓國跟日本都有四五百以上那麼所以呢我們未來如果要以"},{"start":162.907,"end":191.703,"text":"AI去發展百工百業然後讓台灣成為一個AI的大國的話的確是我們在算力事要大幅...確實不夠嘛 確實不夠因為其實本席從上一屆當中的時候對於整個國家算力的部分就非常的關注我們國網中心 坦白說我舉個簡單的例子我們國網中心支援了半導體研究中心半導體研究中心它支援了很多高校裡面大家的一個研究的一個計畫一堆學生在抱怨 裡面根本都跑不動"},{"start":193.024,"end":212.638,"text":"就是排程跑不動那時間都跑不動然後光是一個學術單位都沒辦法支援的時候你要怎麼樣去帶動產業這個部分我其實是很懷疑的我後來去看了一下調了一下我們所有的預算就看到我們跟整個算力提供有關的大概只有在整個國研院下面"},{"start":213.479,"end":233.092,"text":"有一個高效能計算技術研發建置與維運今年113的預算總共只有6.6億,非常的少總共只有6.2億,抱歉只有6.2億,其實非常的少這裡面還包括維運的部分建置的部分又再砍一半所以我覺得以這樣的部分要用"},{"start":234.032,"end":257.041,"text":"國家的力量來支援算力我就本席是非常擔心的可是我覺得因為算力其實當我們現在整個在做尤其像今天在做AI的一個主題當中我們還希望讓整個產業從數位轉型走到AI轉型的時候那政府就必須要更有一些算力掌控在手上作為我們一些政策的工具我這樣講應該是對的嘛 對不對"},{"start":259.262,"end":283.268,"text":"所以目前看起來若只靠國網中現在國網中本來就是在支援學術研究的一個機制對產業來說其實是遠遠的不夠所以我在這邊請教一下郭部長因為我在看你在針對之前那個業務報告的時候你有特別提到就是在整個推動產業AI應用的部分你提到說本部爭取國際大廠免費提供"},{"start":283.928,"end":300.405,"text":"AI超級電腦部分算力資源提到算力資源那麼要加速建構台灣專屬生成式AI核心技術這個部分所以就是說以經濟部的角度來看的時候經濟部的算力也是要依靠企業這邊來支持是這樣子嗎經濟部的算力有經濟部的這個預算吧"},{"start":306.774,"end":335.253,"text":"經濟部有哪些具體的預算在提升算力可以具體說明我剛才講的那個是超級電腦那個是國外的廠商來輔助的然後應該也有這個其他的這個費用會支持他那這個部分部長你這部分你再補給我因為我想你剛才對這部分可能不那麼了解因為經濟部這邊對於算力提升的部分其實很有限而且並沒有自己具體的一個計畫針對目前台灣的一些重要的一些超級電腦的一個算力我們來看一下圖"},{"start":337.955,"end":361.693,"text":"這個是目前就台灣幾個比較重要的一個超級電腦的一個部分目前排第一個是台北萬是輝達提供的那提供部分這當然就是經濟部這邊有大Aplus計畫當中有支持60億左右的一個預算所以我在想說部長這邊提到說要用企業的資源我以為你要用的是這個部分"},{"start":362.473,"end":385.869,"text":"那這個部分本席也接受因為經濟部有補助經費那麼要從台北灣這邊去share資源給政府來使用給企業使用我都覺得可以沒有不行所以你剛剛提到說我們經濟部有另外的一個算力的一個研究中心算力中心的一個計畫你再提供給我因為我目前看預算書是沒有看到的那我要講的狀態是目前台灣的這幾個重要的超級電腦當中排名第二個是"},{"start":392.894,"end":419.413,"text":"氣象署的超級電腦第三個就是台三二號這個部分排名目前是排名106全世界排名106他剛成立的時候排名第20排名第20本來是很好的一個狀態現在完全往後退了那我們接下來再看到就是接下來的部分呢台灣這邊排名比較前面的這些超級電腦的部分就是兩個是"},{"start":421.856,"end":436.009,"text":"兩個是氣象署的兩個是國網中心的兩個氣象署兩個國網中心然後一個是額述室另外一個是輝達大概就是這樣子那以這個部分來看的時候呢我覺得台灣的算力其實是明顯的不足我剛剛舉這個例子"},{"start":437.15,"end":458.38,"text":"就從前年的時候我在看在質詢就是我們國防中心預算的時候我就覺得整個這部分是不夠的可是雖然今年的預算有增加十幾%可是金額還是非常的小對於台灣要去成就這樣的一個算力中心我覺得是非常的不夠那所以這部分我希望說就國發會主委這一邊你能夠"},{"start":459.5,"end":474.27,"text":"跟橫向聯繫跟我們經濟部跟我們國科會這邊一起來提升看怎麼樣子來讓台灣的算力是夠的因為算力不夠的時候AI要去發展其實是緣木求魚我覺得這部分在這邊特別提這個部分"},{"start":475.531,"end":504.13,"text":"謝謝委員我順便補充一下我們現在國科會在沙倫這邊規劃一個超級電腦中心會超過100的Peta Flow那另外在金創計畫以後再往上加那應該會額外增加100多的Peta Flow所以我們在金創計畫當中的時候要成立就是新的我們的算力中心是這樣子嘛 對不對在金創計畫接下來10年過程當中我們要建立兩個我們的算力中心 對不對國科會主委"},{"start":505.071,"end":507.794,"text":"這個部分我們就拭目以待接下來的部分我覺得我還是要特別提到電力因為事實上算力器就是電力"},{"start":525.069,"end":539.975,"text":"那我這邊要特別問一下郭部長因為坦白說你在就職之前的時候來拜訪的時候你就特別提到了說我們也建築媒體就是說你就是電力提供充足是最重要的一個關鍵從企業界來一定需要有電力嘛"},{"start":540.835,"end":549.423,"text":"那當時你也提到河山研議其實是選項之一因為到時候要如果不夠的時候河山研議可是因為你吃了一頓飯之後我發現變了那這個部分我要講一個點就是說說實話你從企業界來接這個位置大家對你有很多的期待"},{"start":557.85,"end":584.368,"text":"因為大家認為也許你可以把企業經營的概念跟務實的態度引進政府的部門所以我們希望你能夠堅持對的事情那我這邊要特別講其實整個河南的狀態其實整個世界也在改變你上次你有回答我說你們也在關注很多新科技的一個部分那至少目前為止在發展整個高科技產業當中包括微軟包括Amazon"},{"start":584.988,"end":599.925,"text":"包括openAI他們都已經很具體要自己去投入核電站那這個部分就是因為他們覺得電力供應非常非常的重要那你從高科技來我希望你對於電力的供應能夠更務實那你"},{"start":600.606,"end":616.722,"text":"去吃了飯之後你跟我們講說現在電力是夠的未來也都會夠即使碰到了AI的一個爆炸期之後還會夠那我希望你到時候到本辦公室做更細部的一個說明那我這邊也要給你一個鼓勵因為你去吃了飯之後這個政策改變的時候很多"},{"start":617.813,"end":643.173,"text":"竹科的朋友開始擔心你會做不久說實話因為他們覺得你會不適應可是問題是大家又希望你能夠帶來一些改變針對這個部分你可以簡單做一個回應報告委員我想這個河山的問題這個是有很多假設性跟前提我可能說話不夠精準不過我想這部分這個報告的部分我會更精準來跟委員報告"},{"start":643.914,"end":663.796,"text":"那麼這個新的核能,剛才您所知道的這三家公司,它是第四代的核能那麼我們對新的核能科技,我們會持續的觀察,持續的注意那如果它能夠得到我們國人大家的同意,我想我們會有一些考慮"},{"start":665.437,"end":689.285,"text":"所以說針對第四代合理反而是可以考慮的一個方向那今天我再補一個CNBC美國一個很重要的財經媒體他今天也特別報導了台灣面臨缺電的一個問題當我們整個全國都在熱情地表達支持半導體產業表達支持AI的部分可是我們也不能夠忽略這兩個確實都是吃電的一個"},{"start":690.666,"end":704.842,"text":"特別的一個產業所以連美國的財經媒體都擔心台灣電力不夠的時候我希望部長這邊的時候也能夠加快的去做一些調整然後到時候給本辦公室一個很詳細的一個報告好不好好的謝謝 以上好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153835","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153835","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81942ee95f3d640548859a48fe1a1d57c38a04e565a7cce14ef82ede71b137622785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:42:29 - 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確實有而且我想說我們也知道打詐這個專法會過可能近期就會過所以說數位部已經在準備這些前置的作業另外通傳會這邊我們也會針對那個黑莓卡就是這些國際漫遊的義務卡這一部分"},{"start":252.049,"end":254.211,"text":"昨天也找電信公司來跟他們講做一些討論怎麼樣來加速這個就是對這個黑美卡怎麼樣來防治"},{"start":275.026,"end":285.974,"text":"謝謝副主委的這個說明那我們也希望就是說能夠透過NCC或是跟法務部還有訴法部一起來努力因為說實在的我覺得台灣的這個詐騙的這個狀況越來越嚴重我講對台灣的國際形象其實也是不佳的所以我們希望就是說從源頭開始來管理是不是可以遏止這些詐騙的這個事件來發生啦謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":302.546,"end":302.827,"text":"打詐釋法"},{"start":320.47,"end":320.77,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":342.899,"end":368.502,"text":"檢調跟這個通信業者索取相關資料這個程序的話是不是也會說比照國安局的這個做法我想說那個通傳會這邊在電信管理法上面就是檢調機關他要去調那個通信監察或調列調列通信紀錄都是有採法官保留的原則或者檢察官保留的原則這個都是依法有按照這個程序在做"},{"start":369.102,"end":369.142,"text":"葛珮帆議員"},{"start":389.116,"end":389.136,"text":"通訊記錄"},{"start":409.085,"end":427.445,"text":"他要去執行通信監察或調位通信記錄的話都是我們按照電信管理法電管法或者通保法上面都要採法官保留至於說民間有一些數據公司比如說Google或者是Meta他們有因為"},{"start":429.087,"end":443.408,"text":"收集到民眾的一些個資喔其實那個APP我講一句話就是說免錢的最貴那那個你使用他這個APP之後你的個資可能會被他收集但是這個部分"},{"start":444.429,"end":452.536,"text":"所以反而是APP的那個是比較危險比較漏洞的這個部分所以不要隨便下載APP這個部分確實是剛才也有委員提到確實要來做民眾在使用這些那個APP的時候要注意到就是說你的同意你同意他的個資是到什麼樣的程度你的定位"},{"start":468.408,"end":481.156,"text":"你同意到什麼程度可能也要就是使用者自己要去了解對但是假使是電信法電管法的部分NCC這邊都要求電信事業一定要遵守"},{"start":484.258,"end":498.223,"text":"各支法的規定、治安法的規定甚至要按照假使有檢調單位來要求通信監察或者是要調位通聯記錄一定要有檢察官或法官核發的一些證明"},{"start":499.045,"end":525.192,"text":"那還有我再請教一下副主委我們行政院就要成立這個各自委員會委員會這已經有設立這個籌備處了往後我們NCC跟這個各自委員會之間的連結呢或是這個怎麼樣的連結這個部分就是6月3號我們在大院交通委員會也提到就是未來電信事業我們會電信事業會導入個人資料去識別化的驗證標準規範我們會來跟去識別化不是過去一直都有在做嗎"},{"start":525.792,"end":548.907,"text":"對,但是這個部分要有一個比較標準的、驗證標準的規劃我們會跟那個各支籌備委員會一起來努力趕快來建立,對OK好謝謝,我在想這個各支委員會的這個成立還有NCC像我們這個打炸司法的這個出現看是不是可以說有效的來嚇止一些這個各支外鬧或者是說被詐騙的這個情形這個發生"},{"start":552.089,"end":554.131,"text":"國安局局長蔡明彥"},{"start":568.039,"end":594.441,"text":"據說最近中國的碳空氣球平常入侵我國尤其是說520之後今年據說都超過百顆的碳空氣球侵入我國的領空當然中國的說法說沒有啊我們只不過是要去收集一些氣象的資料而已那你對於中國的說法你覺得他這個是不是有點逼終究竟是不是真的有其他的目的呢"},{"start":594.981,"end":610.36,"text":"中國的碳空氣球到我們的空域來活動大概主要集中的都是在每一年的11月到隔年的4月因為配合到西南季風的推出可以讓碳空氣球飄到台海中線以東的相關的空域"},{"start":610.76,"end":638.374,"text":"那對於這個部分來講今年為止已經有121顆的中共的探空氣球到台海空域來進行活動那我們認為說它可能除了一般的相關的科研研究以外也要注意到它有相關的軍事用途因為它可以收集相關的大器的數據那對於未來解放軍假如火箭軍或遠程火炮要進行攻擊的話這些數據都可以當作一個火炮試射當中要控制的這些大器的數據資料的參用的圖案"},{"start":640.435,"end":665.292,"text":"所以局長認為所以他這個其實說他只是收集氣象的這些資料其實他背後其實可能還有其他的對那另外也要注意到因為他的這些的洗腦飄的空域大概都在1萬到2萬8的這個因此的高空那也會是我們的戰機跟民航機特別是國內間國內線的民航機的相關的飛岸活動那這是另外一個層面要注意的"},{"start":665.452,"end":665.472,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":695.82,"end":697.897,"text":"接下來請洪森和委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"153834","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8194500e07eda7b1b70182e407f268492bca04e565a7cce14ef0962b2368f89429f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:42:08 - 10:52:50","影片長度":"00:10:42","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:42:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:52:50+08:00","duration":642,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時42分）好，謝謝主席，我先請彭主委。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，金融科技業一年一度的盛事──FINTECH TAIPEI馬上就要舉辦，在今年年底。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，國內的詐騙集團非常有名的im.B曾經不只一次參加FINTECH TAIPEI，造成很多投資人誤以為im.B是一家合法、具有前景而且有投資潛力的一家公司。那個時候我們踢爆這件事情之後，金管會有發布聲明，推說舉辦FINTECH TAIPEI的是金融研訓院還有金融總會之類的，對於這樣的詐騙集團混入FINTECH TAIPEI予以嚴厲譴責，然後就沒有了，所以我請問一下，因為主委現在剛剛接任。從這個照片可以看到那個時候是顧立雄當主委，這個就是整個會場的狀況，im.B在後面開心地跟前主委合照。當然會有這種照片是因為他最喜歡跟這些大人物合照，照了之後就會傳給他的投資人。我想請問主委，這一次的FINTECH TAIPEI能不能夠確切地避免像這樣的詐騙集團在裡面魚目混珠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝王委員，我們當然不希望類似的案件發生，我們會在未來舉辦這個活動的時候記取教訓，好好地避免這一件事情發生。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們是指導單位，對於這些主辦單位是不是應該課以責任？發生這種事情很難看吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們督導也要負責任，未來像這個我們都一定要記取教訓，也會責成……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我在這邊預先跟主委提醒，千萬不要再發生類似的狀況。","好，時間暫停一下，主委先請回，我請法務部次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["徐次長錫祥：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長好。有關於反詐，因為檢調一直都是第一線辦案人員，當然法務部也非常希望能夠在這些新型的犯罪型態、洗錢型態得到一些經驗，所以你們從去年開始就辦了很多的研討會，各地方檢察署都有辦各樣的講座，基本上主要也是針對虛擬貨幣，因為大家都覺得這是新型態的，但法務部主要合作的單位就是幣安，次長知道嗎？我時間要暫停，他現在在問啊！"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，不是法務部找的，是檢察機關找的。"],["王委員鴻薇：是檢察機關找的？"],["徐次長錫祥：對！"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部都不知道啊？時間暫停一下，今天檢察司也有來嘛，請副司長，因為如果次長不知道。沒關係，次長還是可以站上去，你還是督導為什麼今天要問這個問題。"],["主席：有檢察司。"],["王委員鴻薇：你可以看到這麼多跟幣安一起合作的研討會，其實在國際上他們比較瞭解虛擬貨幣，他們覺得不能理解的是，為什麼幣安在全球惡名昭彰，在很多的國家裡面，幣安從創辦人開始到他們在各地其實都被判刑，因為他們涉及相關的洗錢，他們是國際性的，結果臺灣是不是幫他們洗白呢？如同剛才召委所說的，因為成立公會幫一些可能有問題的虛擬貨幣業者洗白，我們是在國際上洗白，他們看到的時候都覺得眼珠要掉下來了。在美國的創辦人趙長鵬，事實上他還被關，而且被罰款的金額極為龐大；在加拿大也是一樣，被罰款600萬加幣；在印度也是一樣，被印度指控這些交易所違反洗錢相關的法規。所以請問一下，我們為什麼要找幣安啊？"],["簡副司長美慧：法務部不是幣安虛擬資產的監理機關，就我們的瞭解檢察機關及刑事警察局的部分，畢竟這是一個新興的犯罪手法，所以要讓檢察執法人員瞭解……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以找在國際知名的洗錢犯罪集團來教我們怎麼樣防制洗錢？"],["簡副司長美慧：因為虛擬資產我們有調取金流跟交易資料的必要性，我們跟國內還有國外的交易所必須有合作管道要跟他們調取資料，在這個部分，幣安在一些案件當中有協助檢察機關調取相關的交易資料，所以檢察機關……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以呢？所以我們要繼續跟他們合作嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：我們不是合作。"],["王委員鴻薇：我在這邊已經指出，在國際上它的裁罰不斷，今天你去Google只要打出「幣安」，就立刻出現詐騙，所以我們還要繼續跟他們合作嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：我們指的是只有調取資料的部分，像在交易所的部分，我們必須建立一些管道，才能夠查詢跟調取資料，這個部分對於檢警在偵辦相關的詐欺犯罪當中，是有幫助的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們一定要透過幣安才能調取相關的資料喔？"],["簡副司長美慧：它是其中一個交易所，它是國外的一個交易所。"],["王委員鴻薇：除了調取資料之外，你還有跟它做一些研討會啊！你們不要再丟臉了，好不好？真的！"],["簡副司長美慧：檢察機關跟警察單位都有……"],["王委員鴻薇：在世界各國都重罰它，還把創辦人關起來，結果我們還繼續合作，然後告訴我們你們調資料還要透過幣安，法務部在國外的一些合作都是白做的嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：在國外的部分，因為它不是我們境內的公司，所以在調取資料的部分必須要有很多的合作。"],["王委員鴻薇：它不是境內公司，它在國外詐騙沒有關係，這是什麼回答啊？如果是這樣的話，在臺灣詐騙，再到日本去當導師，可不可以？也可以囉！"],["簡副司長美慧：我們主要是希望他們可以協助我們查詢、取得相關的資料。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們根本就做錯了，到現在還嘴硬！停止跟幣安合作，停止在國際上這種丟臉的行為，你現在的說法是因為它在境外詐騙，它沒有在臺灣詐騙，所以你在臺灣給它洗白囉！這就是不折不扣的洗白，而且透過我們的政府、透過我們的檢調單位、透過我們地方的地檢署，你看我剛剛講有這麼多的，包含拜會、這些活動及研討會，臺灣果然是一個詐騙島啊！這些境外的詐騙集團到臺灣就來洗白，果然是不折不扣的詐騙島，我們要跟世界去宣傳這件事情嗎？好，所以這一點，我今天既然質詢了，我希望法務部瞭解一下幣安在世界各國惡名昭彰的行為，不要再繼續跟他們合作了，你找不到合法的業者喔？實在太離譜了！","另外，虛擬貨幣的監管系統已經正式上線，這在520之前就上線，我想請問一下，到目前為止，在這個平臺上已經扣案多少錢了？金額多少？"],["徐次長錫祥：金額大概是6、7億。"],["王委員鴻薇：6、7億。可是如果按照當時的宣布兩天扣案就4.5億，兩個月才6、7億，是嗎？到目前為止，才扣案6、7億？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：就代表那兩天洗錢的狀況很多，但在這兩個月這種案子變少了呢？還是你們仍沒有查到，可以說明一下嗎？"],["簡副司長美慧：之前虛擬資產的查扣，我們還沒有做監管系統平臺之前，是用冷錢包的方式查扣，比方說我們去犯罪的現場搜索，發現被告有虛擬資產，例如比特幣，那是用冷錢包的方式把那個錢給扣下來，所以之前在新北跟臺中的部分，案件大概各扣了2億，那都是扣在冷錢包這邊，在上線了之後，我們把它轉到……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以你的意思就是，一上線就把冷錢包轉移到這個平臺上，所以上線兩天就告訴大家成果斐然、成果非常好，但是事實上，如果我們到現在來講，其實增加的並不如我們想像中的那麼高，對不對？"],["簡副司長美慧：因為前面有4億是之前就扣下來，只是我們把它轉到現在熱錢包的公有鏈上，如果現在地檢署有持續查扣到，我們都是把錢打到公有鏈上來。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我就是要瞭解一下，但是基本上有關幣安的問題，今天我在這邊做正式的質詢，麻煩法務部也可以找各地方的檢察署討論，是不是還要繼續跟幣安再合作，我不希望再看到繼續合作了。"],["徐次長錫祥：我們會深刻檢討。"],["王委員鴻薇：好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。待會在顏寬恒委員質詢之後，我們休息10分鐘。","接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ 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謝謝主席 我先請彭主委有請彭主委委員好"},{"start":15.097,"end":43.008,"text":"主委 這個我們金融科技業一年一度的盛世就是那個Fintech對那麼也馬上就要舉辦在今年年底是那我想請問一下因為在國內的這個詐騙集團非常有名的IMB它曾經不止一次的參展就參加我們的Fintech所以呢造成很多的投資人物以為IMB是一家"},{"start":44.609,"end":62.907,"text":"合法而且具有前景、具有投資潛力的一家公司那個時候我們踢爆這件事情之後當時金管會有發布聲明那個聲明就把它推給說這個Fintech它的舉辦"},{"start":64.388,"end":76.254,"text":"是這個金融延續院還有什麼金融總會等等之類的說對這樣的人這樣的一個詐騙集團混入Fintech予以嚴厲譴責然後呢然後就沒有了然後就沒有了那所以我想請問一下因為主委現在剛剛接任"},{"start":86.52,"end":112.094,"text":"這個照片呢你可以看到那個時候是顧立雄他當時啊當主委的時候這個IMB這個就是整個的那個會場的狀況在後面開心跟我們的主委合照那當然這種照片因為他最喜歡跟這些大人物合照照了之後呢就會傳給他的這些投資人所以我想請問主委那麼我們這一次的FinTech能不能夠"},{"start":114.425,"end":141.965,"text":"確切地避免像這樣的詐騙集團在裡面魚沐混珠謝謝王委員我想我們當然不希望這類似的案件發生我們會在未來舉辦這個活動的時候記取教訓好好的來避免這件事情的發生所以因為你們是指導單位嘛那麼對於這些主辦單位是不是應該科以他們責任啊發生這種事情很難看吧"},{"start":142.739,"end":142.879,"text":"主委請回法務部次長"},{"start":176.128,"end":189.995,"text":"有關於反詐因為我們的檢調一直都是第一線的辦案人員當然法務部也非常希望能夠在這些新型的犯罪形態洗錢的形態能夠得到一些經驗"},{"start":192.216,"end":213.586,"text":"所以你們從去年開始呢就辦了很多的研討會各地方檢察署都有辦各樣的講座那基本上呢主要也是針對虛擬貨幣因為大家都覺得這是新型態的但是啊這個法務部主要的合作的單位就是幣安那個次長知道嗎"},{"start":220.834,"end":234.593,"text":"那我時間要暫停啊他現在在問啊不是法務部找的是那個檢查機關找的是檢查機關找的那法務部都不知道啊那時間暫停一下今天什麼檢察司也有來嗎"},{"start":236.529,"end":254.636,"text":"來 副市長來因為如果市長沒關係啊 市長還是可以站上去啊你還是督導為什麼要今天要問這個問題好 這個可以看到這麼多的這個跟幣安一起合作的這些研討會好 我們來看下一頁"},{"start":256.141,"end":280.771,"text":"其實這個是在國際上他們比較了解虛擬貨幣他們覺得不能理解的是為什麼幣安在全球惡名昭彰在很多的國家裡面幣安從創辦人開始到他們在各地其實都被判刑因為他們就是涉及相關的洗錢他們是國際性的"},{"start":284.246,"end":307.807,"text":"那結果台灣呢?真是是不是幫他們洗白呢?如同剛才那個我們那個昭偉所說的一位權力工會幫一些可能有問題的我們的這些這個虛擬貨幣業者來洗白我們是在國際上洗白他們看到的時候都覺得眼珠都要掉下來了好在美國"},{"start":309.301,"end":329.994,"text":"那個創辦人趙長鵬他事實上還被關而且被罰款的金額極為龐大在加拿大也是一樣被罰款600萬加幣在印度也是一樣被印度指控他們這些交易所是違反洗錢相關的法規所以請問一下我們為什麼要找幣安"},{"start":336.023,"end":361.859,"text":"報告委員就是說法務部不是那個弊案虛擬資產的那個監理機關那就我們了解是就是檢查機關還有那個刑事警察局的部分因為就是畢竟這是一個新興的一個犯罪的手法所以呢就是有要讓檢查所以找這個在國際知名的相關洗錢犯罪的集團來教我們怎麼樣防治洗錢因為那個虛擬資產我們有調取那個金流跟交易資料的一個必要性"},{"start":362.259,"end":382.067,"text":"所以我們就是跟國內還有國外的交易所必須有這個合作的管道要跟他們調取資料那這個部分就是幣安這邊有有些案件當中有協助檢查機關就是調取相關的這個交易資料所以呢所以你們要繼續跟他們合作嗎我在這邊您指出說在國際上他的財閥不斷你今天你去打一個幣安立刻出現詐騙"},{"start":386.038,"end":410.629,"text":"你去Google只要打錯幣安就立刻出現詐騙所以我們還要繼續跟他們合作嗎報告委員就是我們指的是只有調取資料的部分像那個就是交易所的部分我們必須建立一些管道才能夠查詢跟調取資料那這個部分對於檢警在偵辦相關的這個詐欺的犯罪當中我們一定要透過幣安才能夠調取這些相關的資料喔它是其中一個交易所它是國外的一個交易所"},{"start":411.581,"end":436.346,"text":"你除了調取資料之外然後你還有跟他做一些研討會啊你們不要再丟臉了好不好真的在世界各國都罰他重罰他還把他的那個什麼創辦人關起來結果我們還繼續的合作然後告訴我們說我們要調資料還要透過幣安那我們法務部在這個國外的一些一些合作都是白做的嗎"},{"start":437.686,"end":438.486,"text":"你們根本就做錯了 到現在還嘴硬"},{"start":459.605,"end":484.017,"text":"停止跟幣安合作停止在這種國際上丟臉的行為你現在做法是說因為他是在境外詐騙他還沒有在台灣詐騙啊所以你在台灣給他洗白囉這不就是不折不扣的洗白而且透過我們的政府透過我們的檢調單位透過我們地方的地檢署你看我剛講說有這麼多的包含拜會啦包含這些活動包含研討會"},{"start":485.712,"end":511.63,"text":"結果台灣台灣果然是一個詐騙島啊境外的這些詐騙直接到台灣就來洗白啦果然是不折不扣的詐騙島我們要跟世界去宣傳這件事情嗎好 所以這一點我今天既然質詢了我希望拔部瞭解一下彼岸在世界各國他們惡名昭彰的行為不要再繼續跟他們合作了你找不到合法的業者喔"},{"start":512.734,"end":513.155,"text":"金額多少?金額大概是六七億"},{"start":536.573,"end":562.555,"text":"6、7億可是如果按照當時的宣布說兩天扣案就4億5那兩個月才6、7億是嗎到目前為止才扣案6、7億是那是不是那就代表說那兩天哇 那個什麼那種洗錢的那個狀況很多然後就是這兩個月是這種案子變少了呢還是說我們還是沒有查到"},{"start":565.103,"end":568.367,"text":"之前那個虛擬資產的查扣就是我們還沒有做這個監管系統平台之前的時候是用冷錢包的方式查扣就說比方說我們去犯罪的現場搜索那發現這個被告有這個虛擬資產例如比特幣那是用冷錢包的方式把那個錢給扣下來"},{"start":582.762,"end":591.872,"text":"所以之前新北跟台中的部分就是案件大概各扣了有兩億那都是扣在冷錢包這邊所以你的意思就是說一上線就把這個冷錢包轉移到這個平台上所以這個金額會就是所以這個上線兩天就告訴大家成果斐然啊成果非常好"},{"start":600.362,"end":618.696,"text":"但是事實上如果我們到現在來講的話它其實增加的並不像我們所想像所想像中那麼高前面有四億就是之前就扣下來只是我們把它轉到現在的這個熱錢包的這個公有鏈上那如果現在地檢署這邊有持續查扣到的話我們都是把錢打到這個公有鏈上"},{"start":619.537,"end":619.697,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"153833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819cbcf01901cde250fb494c37549b30dc5a04e565a7cce14ef2b84f17dd0fda0a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:00:36 - 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10:50:24","影片長度":"00:15:57","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:34:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:50:24+08:00","duration":957,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請司法院秘書長及法務部次長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長，麻煩次長。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好，次長好。目前我國非常多的人民受詐騙所害而家破人亡，整個社會對於詐騙是深惡痛絕，也正是因為這個樣子，我們不斷地催促、不斷地要求相關的主管機關必須要就打詐、必須要就洗錢能夠更強力地去執行，而且有效地採取各式各樣追訴的手段。在這個同時，當我們看到有一些不肖的律師拉幫結派，幫這些詐騙集團行使刑事訴訟法上面合法的辯護權，這沒有人反對，但是如果是幫詐騙集團進一步參與犯罪、監控車手、甚至幫忙洗錢，就讓我們深惡痛絕！沒想到介入的還不僅僅只有律師，連我們的法官、連我們的檢察官統統都淪陷，有法官幫詐騙集團、律師的首腦藏匿現金，還幫他運送現金，這種藏匿犯罪所得的行為，請教一下次長，有沒有違反洗錢防制法？"],["黃次長謀信：這個就是所謂的隔絕型的，如果他拿到、收受被告的犯罪所得，他有在使用，如果是第三人的話，當然會構成；如果是自己使用，根據新法，有交換功能的話，就會構成洗錢。"],["黃委員國昌：法官幫這些詐騙集團、律師的首腦藏匿、運送現金，有沒有違反洗錢防制法？請教次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果符合剛剛我跟委員報告的洗錢三個態樣其中一個態樣，也就是隔絕型的態樣的話，當然會構成。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子有沒有開始在偵辦？"],["黃次長謀信：就這個部分，臺北地檢署已經在偵辦了。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院是不是給他停職了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：司法院已經停職了。"],["黃委員國昌：好。接下來另外一個同樣誇張的，竟然有地檢署的檢察官去鼓勵他的男友加入詐騙集團的律師團，還提供檢方內部的書類檢索系統幫他查詢，提供他資料。桃園地檢署發了一個聲明，說他利用檢方內部的系統查詢資料的案件已經偵結了，沒有影響到偵查，也沒有影響到妨害秘密，是真的嗎？請教一下次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，桃園地檢署新聞稿是這樣子說明的，個案上刑案的部分認為沒有構成，但個案評鑑部分送到評鑑……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來問一下，他幫他的律師男友、幫詐騙集團在監控車手的律師男友，去查詢檢方內部的系統，我先問一個，如果查詢檢方內部的資料系統，這是依法律應該可以公開的事情，還是依法律應該秘密的事項？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們相關的查詢有相關規定，不符合我們個案上查詢要件是不能做查詢的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以幫詐騙集團的男友查詢資料，符不符合你們的規定？"],["黃次長謀信：這個個案讓桃園地檢署去認定，純粹從法律來講、抽象來講是不應該的。"],["黃委員國昌：你也說不應該，但我看桃園地檢署的新聞稿就看不懂了，幫他詐騙集團的男友去查他幫詐騙集團偵辦的案件處理的狀況，這不是檢察系統應秘密的事項嗎？怎麼會只移送檢察官評鑑委員會，沒有要進一步偵辦，這樣對嗎？請教次長。"],["黃次長謀信：這個已經涉及到桃園地檢署的個案決定了。"],["黃委員國昌：這個個案的決定喔？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我們接下來進一步往下看，看我說的是不是真的。他的律師男友跟其他的律師已經依照組織犯罪防制條例被起訴了，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：嗯。"],["黃委員國昌：對吧？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是你們公開的資訊。依照組織犯罪防制條例起訴，代表了這一團律師在我們檢方的眼中已經構成了犯罪組織了，你不會覺得很誇張嗎？我們的檢察官竟然鼓勵他的律師男友去參與犯罪組織耶！你看一下，你們在起訴書裡面、證據清單裡面所講的，他說被告朱一品要跟鄭鴻威合作，吳女（就是檢察官）為其表示可惜，稱：「好吧！我只是覺得這個是打進去他們那個詐騙圈子的好機會」。檢察官去鼓勵他的男友加入犯罪組織，這麼駭人聽聞的事情，目前法務部的態度是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，個案的偵辦上我們一致的立場還是尊重地檢署的決定；行政懲處的部分，我們基於行政監督的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：個案的偵辦我一定尊重地檢署，但問題是你要可以經得起社會檢驗。這個犯罪事實這麼明確了，行為這麼離譜了，你們去對照一下桃園地檢署發的新聞稿，讓人看不下去啊！草率地就說沒有影響到偵查或涉及妨害秘密。來，我問一下，發生了這麼離譜的事情，你們後來有沒有去清查這個檢察官有沒有介入過這個詐團的男友所承辦的案件？有沒有去清查過？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，桃園地檢署是承辦的地檢署，我相信地檢署檢察官就所有的狀況都應該要一律地清查。"],["黃委員國昌：好，清查完的結果是什麼，法務部有沒有掌握？"],["黃次長謀信：因為它是個案，剛偵結，這部分我們不可能去掌握個案的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：那我先問你法律抽象的問題就好了。"],["黃次長謀信：好。"],["黃委員國昌：針對他的男友所幫忙辯護的案子，身為女友，鼓勵他參加犯罪集團的這個檢察官適不適當處理他男友辯護的案子？"],["黃次長謀信：所以這個部分桃園地檢已經把他送個案評鑑了……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，適不適當處理他男友幫忙辯護的案子？可以這樣做嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：當然不適當。"],["黃委員國昌：當然不適當？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員國昌：是不適當，還是不法？有沒有跨越法律的紅線？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，有沒有不法，那就涉及到剛剛提的……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛我說得很清楚了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對，它是個刑案的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：他的男友幫忙辯護的被告……鼓勵他的男友去幫詐騙集團加入那個犯罪組織一起來監控車手、一起來幫這個詐騙集團辦事情的檢察官，可以再承審他男朋友幫忙辯護被告的案件嗎？可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為您提的是刑案的部分，那就要以個案事實去認定到底有沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：你們怎麼對這麼簡單的事情，連一個基本的態度都閃躲成這樣子！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，因為個案事實如果認為有涉及犯罪，當然我們要依法偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我給你看個案事實。根據桃園地方檢察署檢察官起訴書，一位許姓的被告，他的辯護人是誰？朱一品。朱一品是誰？就是剛剛那個檢察官的男友，提起公訴以後，同樣一個被告，這個檢察官就是這個詐團律師的女朋友，這位檢察官可以當公訴檢察官嗎？你有沒有看到右手邊下面是誰到庭執行職務？吳亞芝。吳亞芝是誰？是不是就是那位檢察官？這個被告的辯護人是誰？朱一品。朱一品是不是他的男朋友？就是他鼓勵他的男朋友去參與詐欺集團、加入那個犯罪組織，擔任律師的男友可以做這種事嗎？法務部要有態度啦！個案我當然尊重檢察官的偵辦，但個案要有態度。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果這個檢察官執行職務跟辯護人有特定關係的話，檢察官是符合訴訟法上的自行迴避，他應該要簽請……"],["黃委員國昌：問題是他沒迴避啊！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["黃委員國昌：他不僅知道他男朋友在幫詐團，他還鼓勵他男朋友去參加那個詐騙集團，組成律師團幫他們監控車手，這還不夠駭人聽聞喔？結果他男朋友幫忙詐騙集團的車手辯護，由他的女朋友蒞庭當公訴檢察官，這種基本的查詢，桃園地檢署沒有查出來、法務部沒有查出來，我老實講我不相信，駭人聽聞！可以幹這種事喔？可以幹這種事喔？更離譜的是什麼？次長，我再帶你往下看。","起訴的時候，檢察官在起訴書說什麼？這一個被告，也就是他的男朋友擔任辯護人的被告，他已經是累犯，要求依照累犯加重其刑，這是起訴檢察官做的事喔！我們來看判決，判決最後有沒有論累犯？沒有論累犯。為什麼沒有論累犯？因為那位蒞庭檢察官就是那個詐團律師的女朋友。法官說什麼？「本件檢察官於本院審理時並未就被告有無構成累犯之事實及加重其刑事項具體指出證明方法」，所以就沒有論累犯。次長，你看了不會覺得很誇張嗎？檢察官起訴的時候要求論累犯，結果到審判的時候，蒞庭的檢察官是那個被告辯護人的女朋友，還是鼓勵他去參加這個犯罪組織的人，然後在審判程序中沒有針對他是累犯的事實提出任何證據方法，導致法院最後沒有論累犯，請問這不是包庇什麼，什麼是包庇？這不是放水，什麼是放水？我們桃園地檢署移給檢審會的評鑑事實有包括這個部分嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼沒有？應不應該構成要評鑑的事實？"],["黃次長謀信：這部分有沒有不當，我們桃園地檢署今天經過委員在這邊質詢，理論上它會依職權來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣你認為有沒有不當？法務部的立場認為這樣有沒有不當？"],["黃次長謀信：按照釋字第775號的規定，關於累犯，檢察官要指出證明的方法。"],["黃委員國昌：對，沒有指出證明的方法！結果沒有指出證明方法的檢察官是誰？就是那個詐團律師的女朋友。站在法務部的立場，這樣的態度、這樣的作為是要強力打擊詐欺犯罪，強力打擊洗錢集團，是這樣嗎？這樣的事實，桃園地檢署是在呵護自家人喔？我簡單搜尋一下就查出來了，桃園地檢署查不出來？這件事要不要徹查？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，今天委員在這邊質詢，我們會把這個意見轉交給桃園地檢署來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望桃園地檢署公開回應，我就查出來的事情，可以這樣幹喔？自己的男朋友在幫忙詐騙集團辯護，結果他自己當蒞庭檢察官，當了蒞庭檢察官還沒有論累犯的事實，讓法院最後沒有依照累犯加重其刑，這是我們在對抗詐騙集團應該有的態度跟作為嗎？這是我的問題。次長，要不要徹查？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我剛剛已經回答委員了，我們會把今天委員……"],["黃委員國昌：最後，不好意思！耽誤了一點時間。我最後請教秘書長，幫詐團藏匿現金的司法官經手的案件，我的問題一模一樣，司法院徹查了沒有？他承審過多少詐騙集團的案件？在那一些案件當中有沒有跟幫他藏匿現金的詐騙集團成員有任何的交集？這件事情司法院徹查了沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們跟橋頭地院就這個司法官的事情都儘可能地加以釐清，所以也已經把他……"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以其他承審的案件有沒有涉及到詐騙集團？他有承審詐欺案件，有沒有承審到詐欺集團？案子徹查了沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘量釐清，所以已經將他停職。"],[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來法務部沒有查出來我老實講啊我不相信啊害人聽聞啊可以幹這種事喔"},{"start":614.517,"end":640.12,"text":"可以幹這種事喔!更離譜的是什麼來次長我再帶你往下看起訴的時候檢察官在起訴書說什麼這一個被告也就是他的男朋友擔任辯護人的被告他已經是累犯了要求依照累犯加重起刑這個是起訴檢察官做的事喔來我們來看判決"},{"start":641.448,"end":670.767,"text":"判決最後有沒有論累犯沒有論累犯為什麼沒有論累犯因為那位立庭的檢察官就是那個詐團律師的女朋友當立庭檢察官的法官說什麼本件檢察官於本院審理時沒有就被告有無構成累犯的事實及加重情形的事項具體指出證明方法所以就沒有論累犯"},{"start":672.85,"end":700.155,"text":"市長你看了不會覺得很誇張嗎?檢察官起訴的時候要求論累犯結果到審判的時候力挺的檢察官是那個被告辯護人的女朋友還是鼓勵他去參加這個犯罪組織的然後他在審判程序當中沒有針對他是累犯的事實提出任何證據方法導致法院最後沒有論累犯"},{"start":702.687,"end":726.077,"text":"請問這不是包屁什麼是包屁這不是放水什麼是放水我們桃園地檢署移給檢審會的憑鑒事實有包括這個部分嗎沒有為什麼沒有應不應該構成要憑鑒的事實這部分的話當然如果說有沒有不當我們桃園地檢署他今天委員在這邊質詢他理論上他會要質詢來處理這樣子你認為有沒有不當"},{"start":730.342,"end":755.39,"text":"法務部的立場認為這樣有沒有不當按照4至7175號的規定雷範檢察官是要指出證明的方法對啊沒有指出證明的方法結果沒有指出證明的方法的檢察官是誰就是那個詐團律師的女朋友啊站在法務部的立場這樣的態度這樣的作為是要強力打擊詐欺犯罪強力打擊洗錢集團是這樣嗎"},{"start":758.818,"end":782.771,"text":"這樣的事實桃園地檢署是在呵護自家人喔我簡單搜尋一下就查出來啦桃園地檢署查不出來喔這件事要不要徹查?市長呃,各位報告今天我們委員在這邊質詢的話我們會把這個意見轉交給桃園地檢署來處理我希望桃園地檢署公開回應啦我就查出來的事情可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":784.451,"end":810.552,"text":"自己的男朋友在幫忙辯護的詐騙集團結果他自己當例庭檢察官當了例庭檢察官還沒有論壘犯的事實讓法院最後沒有依照壘犯加重刑刑這個是我們在對抗詐騙集團應該有的態度跟作為嗎這是我的問題市長要不要徹查好來最後"},{"start":814.178,"end":842.814,"text":"不好意思耽誤了一點時間我最後請教秘書長當詐團藏匿現金的司法官經手的案件我的問題一模一樣司法院徹查了沒有他曾審過多少詐騙集團的案件在那一些案件當中有沒有跟當他藏匿現金的詐騙集團的成員有任何的交集這件事情司法院徹查了沒有"},{"start":844.969,"end":869.836,"text":"這個我們跟桃園跟橋頭地院啊就這個司法官的這個事情啊都都盡可能的來來加以這個釐清對所以呢他其他陳審的案件有沒有涉及到詐騙集團他有陳審詐欺案件啊有沒有陳審到詐欺集團的案子徹查了沒有那我們會盡量釐清的所以已經將他停所以什麼時候釐清"},{"start":871.71,"end":899.071,"text":"是已經釐清完了還是還沒有釐清完在橋頭地院那邊他們應該就初步然後也跟政婚單位也都密切甚至像所以釐清完了沒有就就因為這一種就是說一定是盡量去釐清嘛對啊所以釐清完沒有那這個沒有關係啦我看你吼現在的回答是搞不清楚狀況我也不要逼你會吼"},{"start":900.359,"end":917.912,"text":"去問橋頭定院,釐清完了沒有?因為你們已經停止了嘛。停止了。接下來除了刑事處分以外,我想法官評鑑應該跑不掉嘛。對對。是不是要移送法官評鑑?已經送了。啊你送法官評鑑最後釐清的犯罪事實有沒有涉入其他詐團的案件?這件事情徹查沒有?"},{"start":918.712,"end":937.907,"text":"所以因為這中間即使也跟廉政署還有政風單位都密切來救他所涉及的有關訴訟。祕書長你真的很厲害我問一個簡單的問題你可以東繞西繞東繞西繞講到別的地方去實踐的關係我最後只講一句話"},{"start":939.554,"end":956.09,"text":"有沒有涉及其他詐團的案件請司法院跟橋頭地院回去徹查這已經沒有涉及到審判核心事項了我們是針對已經終結的案件來review他有沒有成審有沒有涉及到其他案件一定要徹查啦好請司法院回去徹查謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153831","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153831","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8195034cceaa931c82925a148732a468ab6a04e565a7cce14ef0832318c0852a2b95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:34:55 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10:48:33","影片長度":"00:13:38","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:34:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:48:33+08:00","duration":818,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時34分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：我們請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安。在進入今天的專報議題之前我先請教您，部長，您覺得科技跟人文社會哪一個領域比較受目前學子的歡迎？或者說部長個人覺得哪一個領域比較重要？"],["鄭部長英耀：科技始終來自於人性，所以沒有人文的素養、沒有哲學的思考，我覺得科技的文明有時候不一定會提供人類好處。我一直認為人文社會的人才，包括基本的人文素養是非常重要的，它是用來支撐科技是否能夠對人類的發展有所貢獻的一個關鍵。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長。也正是因為有這樣子的擔憂，所以今天在這邊特別要請教您，AI浪潮來襲，除了像AI教父黃仁勳來臺引起這些轟動之外，對於未來科技的想像、發展以及潛力等等，我們其實都專注在所謂AI的領域，可以想像學生們對於整個AI科技領域的學科一定是會覺得比較有興趣。建中跟北一女的人社班確定在今年退場，這讓我感到非常的擔憂，就像部長您剛剛回答的，科技來自於人性！AI的規範、發展還是要回應社會的需求，溫柔的回應社會。本席並不是在今天一定要強制教育部或各高中一定要強勢發展，或者說把人社班開回來，但是人文社會的重要性並不能在這個科技的浪潮之下被淹沒。在未來的課綱下，人社的課程是會存在於各班的基礎課程裡面，但是本席這邊要強調，我們如何有效並確實的將人文社會的柔軟、思辨與關懷傳遞到孩子的心中是非常重要的，科技跟人文是永遠不會脫離的！","接下來進入今天的專題，校園霸凌跟學生自殺的議題是教文委員會的委員們長期非常關心的議題，針對如何有效防制校園霸凌，從上個會期教文委員會就一直安排很多次專報。潘前部長在卸任前最後一次質詢也提到，他擔任七年多的教育部長以來最大的遺憾是，關於校園霸凌的議題跟學生自殺的議題沒有達成目標，也呼籲各界都要持續共同關心！","部長，這邊請教您，您跟潘前部長交接的時候，對於校園霸凌跟學生自殺議題的政策如何延續有沒有特別討論？或是潘前部長有沒有提供他的一些建議呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我跟潘前部長有非常深厚的情誼，因為我當時決定要上來之前，事實上還是中山大學的校長，為了讓許多校務階段性的結束，確實也讓我壓縮了跟潘部長進行更多請益的時間，但是我們事實上是有熱線的，我隨時可以向他請益。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長。您剛才的回答也透露出訊息，其實您在學校的實務面應該會有滿多的經驗。針對霸凌案件，根據教育部給本席的資料，112年的霸凌通報件數高達3,257件，平均一個月就有271件，相較於111年的1,942件，等於幾乎翻倍。當然，這個數據可以解讀為我們現在反霸凌的意識比較提高，所以我們的孩子學會保護自己，但是相對的，這個確認的件數增加也表示現在霸凌事件真的也是增加，這個讓大家都覺得非常的擔憂。我們在校園的霸凌防制到底有哪個環節可以再做得更好？我們要教育孩子不要被霸凌，但是我們更要教育孩子不要去霸凌別人，我們在教育這一端還能多做什麼，部長，您認為？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正。事實上，我想在中小學輔導活動的相關課程，我們怎麼樣來落實？我一直認為人我之間人際的相處，怎麼樣讓我們青少年、我們的學生有更多同理心，透過角色替代，包括人際的一些互動、小團體、班級活動，我想第一個階段發展性的一些課程，我們要落實，當人與人之間的相處能夠有更多的設身處地，我相信校園霸凌是可以減少的。另外，因為要培養這些同理心或者「角色取替」，事實上在中小學有藝術、人文課程，我們怎麼樣透過一些戲劇課程，讓青少年朋友能夠在不同的角色裡面去想像他可能遭到的處遇，他能不能感同身受，我相信這是……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，您說的同理心非常的重要，己所不欲，勿施於人！我們讓孩子們去感受到我不希望被這樣子對待，我們也不要這樣子對待人家，所以教育的課程、教材、教案就非常的重要，而且每一個孩子都有不同的人格特質跟個性，但一些比較內向的孩子遇到霸凌事件很容易發生遺憾的事情，我們有沒有確實的接觸這些孩子？我們隨便上網搜尋一下新聞會發現，現在學生傳出自殺的頻率真的非常高，從5月底到現在，目前新聞報導至少就可以找到4則學生輕生的新聞，其中更有兩位學生是直接寫明就是因為受不了學校的霸凌而輕生。根據數據統計資料顯示，從106年一直到111年，所有階段的自殺通報都是暴增的，尤其在國小更是增加了十幾倍，總通報件數高達11,663件，平均一天就有超過31件，等於每個小時都有自殺案件的通報，這是非常非常嚴重的問題。","剛才提到教材的部分，教育部的1953教育部防制校園霸凌專區，本席發現裡面提供的教材、教案已經很久沒有更新，最近的更新是在4月18日，但是點進去連結的內容是連結到2019年的舊內容，上一次是在2023年的2月更新的。但是，部長，你可以看到教學指引以及教學媒體下載只有一千多次，使用的次數非常少。根據2023臺灣兒少遭微歧視經驗與校園霸凌調查報告指出，有近兩成的兒少表示學校沒有做任何反歧視、反霸凌的教育，甚至只有四成的兒少認為這些教育內容對於現實狀況有幫助；意思就是說，教育部推動了這些反霸凌教育的相關內容其實是沒有貼近現實狀況，也無法讓我們的孩子在面對有歧視，或是有霸凌狀況的時候能夠從容的面對。","部長，我們教育部也在今年4月中修正了校園霸凌防制準則，相關的反霸凌教材、教案一定也是會更新，請問預計什麼時候更新？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會加速來做，確實因為社會的快速變遷，許多霸凌的樣態，包含網路的霸凌，我想許多的教材確實也應該要快速的與時俱進，我們會請許多專家……"],["陳委員秀寳：對，與時俱進！針對我們的孩子反映反霸凌教育沒有落實，以及內容不符合現實的這個問題，教育部現在規劃如何改善？"],["鄭部長英耀：我跟委員報告，會後我們會積極邀請第一線的老師跟學者專家，趕快利用暑假能夠有一些更與時俱進的教材、課程。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以，部長，您理解我在這邊向您反映的問題嗎？就是我們的教材，不管是老師他們採用這個教案、教材並不踴躍，還有孩子們反映他們學校可能沒有做這些反霸凌教育，或者他們覺得這些內容對他們來講不符合現況、用不到！"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我想滾動式的檢討跟修正是必要的。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長您也重視這個問題。教育部應該善盡職責，落實反霸凌教育，而且應該儘速研議相關規劃。","接下來，部長，您留步，我想請法務部檢察司郭司長。"],["郭司長永發：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：司長好。根據教育部的統計，112年的數據裡面，持有、販售與吸食藥品的總件數是483件，平均一個月有40件，從113年的1月到4月，平均下來一個月也高達37件，針對這個部分，司長，你有什麼看法？"],["郭司長永發：有關於學生是不是有濫用毒品的問題，我曾經擔任過雲林、新竹與臺中地檢署檢察長，其實我們每季都有一個緝毒小組會議，這個緝毒小組會議的組成，包括學校、教育局人員以及少年隊。我們都會交代、拜託少年隊能夠跟學校有所溝通，對防制毒品入侵多所努力，因為我們跟學校之間的溝通，學校比較忌諱執法人員進入校園，這一部分就是少年隊跟學校的努力，儘量防杜毒品。"],["陳委員秀寳：孩子不管是被毒品吸引，或是防制這個部分，我們的主力還是放在校園。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：目前學生濫用藥物的大宗應該是大麻，而新興毒品也很盛行，彩虹菸等等複合式毒品是防不勝防，但是目前的情況看起來，我們的教育體系對這些變化萬千的藥物真的可以說是無能為力。請問部長覺得，現在的措施我們還可以如何優化？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想謝謝委員的關心，我其實一直認為我們怎麼樣把一些發展性的……從學校課程，班級會議、班會裡面有很多融入課程，老師多一些在教材裡面把防制校園霸凌，包括民主、基本的公民素養、人權關係、人我的身體自主權，適時融入學科的教材或者在許多的活動裡面，我覺得它是會有價值的。當我們這個真正更落實的時候，我相信霸凌是會被降低的。"],["陳委員秀寳：還是要提醒部長，教材的內容真的非常重要。","主席，你再給我一點點時間。","我們來看一個「反毒大本營」的網站，請問這個網站的主管機關是法務部還是教育部？"],["鄭部長英耀：法務部。"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，這是我們法務部保護司所做的。"],["陳委員秀寳：是你們的。目前我們知道，不管法務部還是教育部都說我們在推反毒教育，也有做海報，但部長和次長看一下，這個反毒大本營的網站上面提供的毒品防制影片，觀看次數是多少？5個月以來是六百多人次。六百多人次！不是六百多萬，是六百多人次喔！部長和次長覺得這樣是有成效的嗎？我相信法務部和教育部製作這樣子的反毒宣導，是要向孩子們宣導反毒的觀念，但如果你們製作出來的影片沒有人觀看，其實也浪費了這些資源。所以本席在這邊要建議教育部及法務部，你們要掌握孩子們觀看影片的習慣，用他們感興趣、願意去看的方式來製作反毒內容。甚至也可以跟文化部跨部會合作，我們用製作短影片的方式，而且比較有趣、比較生動，找孩子們熟悉的人物來做這樣的宣導。我們既然要做這樣子的反毒影片提供給孩子，讓他們從裡面學到如何保護自己，但如果它是一個他們不會去看、不願意去看的影片，其實做了也是等於白做。所以我請教育部和法務部針對反毒宣導的內容進行檢討，一個月之內提供檢討報告給本席。謝謝部長、次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請吳沛憶委員。吳委員質詢完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":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這讓我感到非常的擔憂就像部長您剛剛回答的科技來自於人性 AI 的規範發展還是要回應社會的需求溫柔的回應社會本席並不是在今天一定要強制說教育部或是各高中要強制發展或者說把人社班開回來但是人文社會的重要性並不能在這個科技的浪潮之下被淹沒"},{"start":111.857,"end":112.177,"text":"接下來進入今天的專題"},{"start":131.335,"end":138.58,"text":"校園霸凌跟學生自殺的議題是教育委員會的委員們長期非常關心的議題針對如何的有效防制校園霸凌已經從三個屆起校園委員會也一直安排很多次的專報那潘部長在卸任前最後一次的質詢也提到說他擔任七年多的教育部長以來最大的遺憾是關於校園霸凌的議題跟學生自殺的議題沒有達成目標也呼籲各界要持續的來共同的關心"},{"start":161.716,"end":173.611,"text":"那部長這邊請教您喔您跟潘部長交接的時候有沒有對於這個校園霸凌跟學生自殺議題政策如何延續有沒有特別的來討論或是潘部長這邊有沒有提供他的一些建議呢?"},{"start":175.669,"end":198.196,"text":"跟委員報告我跟潘部長有非常深厚的情誼雖然我們在因為我當時決定要上來之前事實上還是中山大學的校長所以許多校務的這一些階段性的一個結束確實也讓我壓縮了跟潘部長更多的情誼但是我們事實上是有熱線的我隨時是可以跟他情誼的"},{"start":199.136,"end":202.499,"text":"其實您剛才回答也透出訊息說其實您在學校的實務端在實務面應該會有蠻多的經驗針對霸凌案件其實根據教育部給本席的資料 112年的霸凌通報件數高達3257件平均一個月就有271件"},{"start":218.132,"end":225.598,"text":"相較於111年的1942件等於說幾乎是翻倍當然這個數據可以解讀為就是說我們現在反霸凌的意識比較提高所以我們的孩子呢會學會保護自己但是相對的這個確認的件數增加也表示說現在霸凌的事件真的也是增加這個讓大家都覺得非常的擔憂那我們在於校園的這個霸凌防制到底有哪個環節可以再做得更好"},{"start":247.955,"end":256.141,"text":"我們要教育孩子不要被霸凌但是我們也更要教育孩子不要去霸凌別人我們在教育這一端我們還能多做什麼部長您認為我想我謝謝委員的指正事實上我想我們在中小學裡面這個輔導活動的一個相關的課程我們怎麼樣來落實我一直認為人我之間人際的相處怎麼樣讓我們青少年我們學生有更多的同理心透過角色"},{"start":277.535,"end":278.355,"text":"我相信那一個校園霸凌裡面他是可以減少的"},{"start":299.349,"end":299.689,"text":"謝謝部長：林淑優"},{"start":317.668,"end":319.59,"text":"每個孩子都有不同的人格特質跟個性當一些比較內向的孩子遇到霸凌事件很容易發生遺憾的事情"},{"start":345.831,"end":345.851,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":375.811,"end":378.153,"text":"總通報件數高達11663件平均一天就有超過31件等於每個小時都有自殺案件的通報這是非常非常嚴重的問題"},{"start":396.086,"end":409.076,"text":"提到剛才教材的部分教育部的1953教育部防制校園霸凌專區本期發現裡面提供的教材教案已經很久沒有更新最近的更新是在4月18但是點進去連結的內容是連結到2019年的舊內容"},{"start":414.48,"end":441.711,"text":"那上一次的更新是在2023年的2月更新的但是部長你可以看到這個教學指引以及教學媒體下載只有一千多次使用的次數非常少那根據2023年台灣兒少為歧視現況調查報告指出有近兩成的兒少表示學校沒有做任何反歧視反霸凌的教育那甚至有只有四成的兒少認為這些教育內容對於現實狀況有幫助"},{"start":443.792,"end":466.231,"text":"意思就是說教育部推動了這些反霸凌教育的相關內容其實是沒有貼近現實狀況也無法讓我們的孩子在面對有歧視或是有霸凌這個狀況的時候能夠充分的面對部長我們教育部也在今年4月中有修正了校園霸凌防制準則相關的反霸凌教材教案一定也是會做更新那請問預計什麼時候做更新"},{"start":470.512,"end":486.936,"text":"我想我們會加速的來做因為確實因為社會的快速變遷許多這個霸凌的樣態包含網路的霸凌我想許多的教材我們確實也應該要快速的與時俱進對與時俱進針對我們兒童來我們的孩子反映說反霸凌教育沒有落實以及內容不符合現實的這個問題教育部你們現在規劃如何改善"},{"start":498.422,"end":499.783,"text":"所以部長您理解我在這邊向您反映這個問題嗎就是我們的教材不管是說老師他們採用這個教案教材的這個並不踴躍"},{"start":523.957,"end":551.152,"text":"還有說孩子們他們反映到說他們學校可能沒有做這些反霸凌教育或者說他們覺得這些內容對他們來講不符合現況用不到所以我想滾動式的一個檢討跟修正是必要的那謝謝部長您也重視這個問題教育部應該要善盡職責落實反霸凌教育而且應該儘速的來演繹相關的規劃那接下來這邊部長您留步我想請法務部檢察司的郭司長"},{"start":558.101,"end":563.264,"text":"市長好根據教育部的統計112年的數據裡面持有販售與吸食的藥品的件數總件數是483件平均一個月是有40件那從113年的1月到4月這樣子平均下來一個月也高達37件那這個部分呢市長你有什麼看法"},{"start":579.615,"end":596.249,"text":"關於學生是不是有濫用毒品的問題我曾經擔任過雲林新竹與台中地檢署檢察長其實我們每季都有一個棄毒小組會議"},{"start":597.63,"end":624.313,"text":"這個企圖小組會的組成包括有學校的這個學校教育局的人員以及這個我們少年隊那我們都會交代拜託我們少年隊能夠真的跟學校能夠有所溝通對防制這個毒品入侵多所努力因為我們跟學校之間的溝通學校比較忌諱我們這個執法人員進入他們校園那這部分就是我們"},{"start":624.913,"end":626.475,"text":"所以這邊在防制我們的孩子不管是被這樣毒品吸引還是說防制這個部分我們主力還是放在校園"},{"start":640.174,"end":660.359,"text":"目前學生濫用藥物的大宗應該是大嘛那新興的毒品也很盛行彩虹菸等等這種複合式的毒品是防不勝防但是目前的這個情況看起來我們的教育體系對這個變化萬千的藥物看起來真的可以說是無能為力那部長請問您覺得說現在的措施我們還可以如何優化我想"},{"start":667.508,"end":681.898,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我其實一直認為我們怎麼樣去把一些發展性的從學校的課程包括班級我們的一個會議班會裡邊有很多的融入課程的老師多一些"},{"start":682.999,"end":707.65,"text":"在教材裡面能夠把這些防制校園霸凌包括民主的基本的公民的素養人權的關係人我的身體的自主性能夠適時的融入到學科的教材或者在許多的活動裡面我覺得他是會有價值的當我們這個真正的更落實的時候我相信那個霸凌他是會被降低的"},{"start":707.85,"end":708.491,"text":"請問這個網站的主管機關是法務還是教育?"},{"start":724.126,"end":751.579,"text":"法務部長鄭文報告這是我們法務部保護師所做的是你們的我們目前其實我知道說不管是法務部還是教育部都說我們有在推反毒教育也有做海報但是其實部長跟市長您看一下這個反毒大本營的網站上面有提供的毒品防制影片觀看次數是多少五個月以來是600多人次600多人次不是600多人次是600多人次部長跟市長你覺得這樣是有成效的嗎"},{"start":752.139,"end":771.92,"text":"我相信說法務部跟教育部製作這樣子的反毒宣導是要讓孩子們向孩子們宣導反毒的觀念但是如果你們製作出來的影片是沒有人觀看其實也是浪費了這些資源所以說本席在這邊要建議教育部及法務部你們要掌握孩子們觀看影片的習慣"},{"start":772.861,"end":784.857,"text":"用他們感興趣願意去看的方式來製作反毒的內容甚至也可以跟文化部這邊的跨部會來合作我們用製作短影片的方式而且比較有趣比較生動的找孩子們他們熟悉的這些人物來做這樣的宣導"},{"start":790.584,"end":807.07,"text":"希望說我們既然要做這樣子的反毒影片來提供給孩子讓他們從裡面去學到如何保護自己但是如果他是一個他們不會去看的不願意去看的這樣的影片那其實做了也是等於白做所以這邊我請教育部跟法務部這邊那針對這個反毒宣導的這個內容進行檢討那一個月之內提供這個檢討報告給本席好謝謝謝謝部長市長謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193cd719a3fb1062ab0fec08313b105ec0a04e565a7cce14ef3d880ba5f67c8c755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:37:33 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10:47:25","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:37:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:47:25+08:00","duration":592,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時37分）謝謝主席，我想要請我們國發會的劉主委跟我們經濟部的郭部長。"],["主席：我們再請劉主委跟郭部長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：劉主委早。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請教一下、就教一下，今天早上我們郭部長說，如果把我們AI的用電計算進去的話，未來是3%的用電成長，那我想要瞭解，這個3%的用電成長是我們原先預估的，就是在AI沒有蓬勃發展的情況下，我們所預估的3%？還是在我們看到了AI產業，有輝達的執行長來，帶動了整個臺灣的AI熱潮以後，大家認為AI可能會成為下一個時代非常蓬勃發展的產業，那兩個用電的估算還是3%嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，上禮拜我剛好有參加這方面的會議，的確是上禮拜重新估計的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：上禮拜重新估計？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你說的是上禮拜重新估計，但我說的是，估計的是原先預估保守的這種成長？還是爆炸性的成長？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是含AI的成長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道這是含AI，過去你的3%就是含AI的成長了，但是我們所說的是，如果AI蓬勃發展的時候，你的用電、供電的成長還是3%嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在是以目前的狀態評估出來的數字。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是目前的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不清楚委員蓬勃的定義大概會到什麼程度，目前我的瞭解是，郭部長他們去問了很多業界，然後台電也問了很多業界，綜合出業界所反映的訊息而整理出來的，也許郭部長可以做進一步的說明。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是如果按照輝達的架構，它的新產品它的用電量會激增2到3倍，在這樣的情況下，我們的用電量每年的成長是否還是3%？郭部長，你有數字嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一部分他們現在是會增加，但是它新的晶片也會降能。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會降能？"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，就是說降低它的電的能耗。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以它未來的用電成長，不會像我們大家、一般業界評估的這麼高嗎？是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：……像過去預估那樣的正比，不會這樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會這麼高，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對。而且我跟委員報告，主要是這樣子，就是說，他們現在的晶片有降能，另外，做成的伺服器，伺服器也會因為這個……他剛開始要做數據中心，他可能不會用那麼大的伺服器，所以他會漸漸地看，看完以後，最後比較大臺的，譬如說350MW的或者500MW的，那個一定都是放在比較後面的投資，不會一開始就投資那麼大，我想就投資者來講，他也會慢慢去測試我們的電到底是有沒有那麼多啦！我想這個是事實，大家都清楚，也就是說，不可能一下子就投入500MW的、350MW的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以初期不會那麼高？"],["郭部長智輝：對，初期一定不會那麼高，所以我們過去的……現在講說3%，我們認為3%其實應該可以滿足這個市場的需求，到2028年以後，如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好，那麼我們就要比較擔心，但是我想因為我們現在在觀察，我們是動態在觀察，所以我們現在……另外一個，我可以在這個地方跟各位報告，就是說大家都擔心我們的電可能不夠，不過，我們從現在一直在檢討做節能ESCO這個方案，所以ESCO方案如果我推下去的話，事實上非常有機會來滿足2025到2028的成長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想要瞭解的是，目前大家都認為未來政府部門不應該再撥補給台電，那電價會不會漲？你看，這是台電的資產負債表、4月底的資產負債表，它累計的虧損是4,400億，這樣高的數字，如果未來政府部門……過去都是由政府部門吸收，以及當初你也講了，你原本是要降低平均的發電成本，因為從你過去的經驗，你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本，那未來有沒有可能？如果目前大家看來，好像核能是成本相對比較低的情況下，未來沒有可能降低，那政府部門又不撥補的情況下，是不是勢必電價就會……"],["郭部長智輝：如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估，只從成本上面去考量的話，就會像委員你所指教的，不過，我認為公司的經營必須要看營運的效益、我所使用材料的成本跟我的人力，我想這個成本的部分，我們除了材料的成本以外，人力的成本、運作的效益，這些都是我可以去努力的部分，雖然我們材料的成本占非常的高，不過我們現在就是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是能源的成本，天然氣跟燃煤的成本。"],["郭部長智輝：對，您所關心的核能成本，如果核能成本我全部替換了以後，事實上每一度電增加的成本並不高、並不高。因為過去我們的核能只占了……目前只占了百分之六到百分之七，所以它真的有百分之九十幾的成本在那邊是固定的，這個部分真的能占的部分太小，它所影響出來的價格是非常小的，我必須要由一些妥善率或者是loss的部分，或者一些績效不好的地方去努力。報告委員，我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案，就是ESCO這個方案，這個方案，我可以讓業者……他們也可以降低它的電費，我們基本上……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那多久可以執行？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在加緊腳步。"],["謝委員衣鳯：節能的方向多久可以執行？因為你必須要在這個缺口產生之前，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對，沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這樣會增加企業多少成本？你不能只用高科技產業來看，必須要看影響就業人口數最多的中小企業？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：它會增加多少成本？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上，我們先滿足中小企業以及一般商家、一般住家的用電，我們朝向這個方向，剛才楊委員也有特別指導，如果院長指示這部分不漲的話，我們就努力朝這個部分來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以在不漲電價的情況下，你是以節能的方式去因應嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們會朝著節能的部分來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電的成本呢？台電的虧損呢？"],["郭部長智輝：台電不會產生虧損。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電會不會倒閉？"],["郭部長智輝：不會產生虧損，如果我們推得順利的話。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電會不會倒閉？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會倒閉？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會倒閉？你說的，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我說的。經營公司我們不可能讓它倒閉，財務有財務的問題，我們會去努力，但是我個人認為經營公司最重要的是效益和效率的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：台電會不會倒閉？如果不會倒閉就不會產生，你的認知是這樣，是不是？你說不會缺電，也不會倒閉？"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：也不會增加成本？"],["郭部長智輝：不會增加成本。"],["謝委員衣鳯：也不會有虧損？"],["郭部長智輝：過去的虧損是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：新的不會虧損？"],["郭部長智輝：對，新的不會虧損。"],["謝委員衣鳯：總經理要不要說一下，是不是不會虧損？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，因為部長來自於企業界，他對於整個成本各方面都會有要求，我們會把整個細節再分析給部長聽，到時候會做比較詳細的瞭解之後再判斷。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我為部長補充，因為前任部長說過有政府台電就不會倒，你要大方一點，沒問題，我們也歡喜聽到你是以經營的方式，台電不會倒，這是讓國人有信心，但是你說台電不會增加成本、不會虧損，這有一點疑慮，我們也拭目以待你可以提出方案。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","蔡易餘","羅智強","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教\n育部首長就「為掌握生成式 AI 等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化 AI 生態系及充\n實 AI 人才與產業 AI 化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用 AI 賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.9209687500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.607218750000001,"end":19.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.49096875,"end":27.402218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.44846875,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.617218750000003,"end":34.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.38846875,"end":57.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.25409375,"end":60.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.32534375,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.337843750000005,"end":65.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.69159375000001,"end":83.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.22034375000001,"end":90.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.97034375000001,"end":91.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.22346875000001,"end":105.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.16409375,"end":93.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.87096875,"end":107.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.49096875000001,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.28159375000001,"end":128.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.05721875,"end":129.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.10784375,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.05284375000002,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.06971875000002,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.91221875000002,"end":145.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.99659375000002,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.03034375000001,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.31721875,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.38471875000002,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.56096875,"end":159.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.90034375000002,"end":162.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.56221875,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.77284375000002,"end":172.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.72971875000002,"end":173.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.32034375,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.21034375000002,"end":177.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.96096875,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.99471875,"end":178.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.68659375000001,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.25971875000002,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.32721875000001,"end":188.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.74409375000002,"end":190.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.53721875000002,"end":199.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.29659375,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.39784375000002,"end":190.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.94909375,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.01659375000003,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.05034375000002,"end":200.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.10096875000002,"end":222.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.13471875000002,"end":200.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.28659375,"end":200.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.15471875,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.48971875,"end":233.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.56846875000002,"end":233.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.36159375000003,"end":233.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.46284375000002,"end":233.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.51346875000002,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.54721875,"end":233.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.58096875,"end":233.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.76659375000003,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.13721875000002,"end":245.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.25409375,"end":250.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.65846875000003,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.48534375000003,"end":279.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.71721875000003,"end":282.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.68721875,"end":292.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.31846875,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.55034375,"end":297.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.36409375,"end":302.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.10596875000005,"end":304.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.13096875,"end":305.19846875},{"spe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初期一定不會那麼高所以我們過去的這個現在雖然講說3%我們認為3%其實是應該可以滿足這個市場的需求到2028年以後如果這個AI的熱潮整個非常的好"},{"start":250.714,"end":277.291,"text":"那麼我們就是要比較擔心但是我想因為我們現在在看觀察我們是動態的在觀察所以我們現在另外一個我可以在這個地方跟各位報告就是說大家都擔心我們店可能不夠不過我們從現在一直在檢討做這個節能的這個方案所以這個方案如果我推的下去的話我事實上非常有機會來滿足"},{"start":280.093,"end":306.404,"text":"這是2025到2028的成長那我想要了解的就是目前大家都認為說你說未來就是政府部門不應該再就是撥補給台電嗎那電價電價會不會漲是不是你看這是台電的資產負債表4月底的資產負債表它累計的虧損是4400億這樣子高的數字那如果未來"},{"start":308.072,"end":335.117,"text":"政府部門過去都是由政府部門吸收以及當初你也講的你原本是要降低就是平均的發電的成本嘛因為從你過去的經驗你認為台電應該要降低平均發電的成本那未來有沒有可能那如果目前大家看來好像核能是比較成本是相對比較低的這個情況下"},{"start":336.337,"end":343.731,"text":"那未來沒有可能降低那政府部門又不撥補的情況下那是不是勢必電價就會"},{"start":345.851,"end":373.501,"text":"如果我們沒有從效益上面去推估那麼只從這個成本上面去考量的話就會像這個委員你所指教的不過我認為啦這個一個公司的經營必須要看我這個營運的效益跟我所使用材料的成本跟我人力我想這個成本的部分我們除了這個材料的成本以外人力的成本然後運作的這個效益"},{"start":374.401,"end":394.846,"text":"這些都是我可以去努力的部分那雖然我們材料成本佔非常的高不過我們現在就是就是女人的成本嗎?天然氣跟燃煤的成本嗎?您所說的關心的這個核能的這個成本如果核能成本我全部替換了以後我事實上每一度增加的成本並不高"},{"start":396.346,"end":401.814,"text":"並不高因為過去我們的這個核能只佔了這個目前是只佔了這個6%到7%所以他真的這個"},{"start":407.767,"end":430.504,"text":"90幾%的成本在那邊是固定的這個部分真的能佔的部分太小它所影響出來的價格是非常的小的我必須要由一些妥善率或者是漏食的部分或者是一些績效不好的地方去努力報告委員我們現在最快的方式就是去推動節能方案"},{"start":431.686,"end":435.919,"text":"節能方案就是ESCO這個方案那麼這個方案我可以讓業者"},{"start":438.444,"end":467.779,"text":"他們也可以降低它的這個電費那多久可以執行?你節能的方向多久可以執行?因為你必須要在這個缺口產生之前嘛是不是?你如果這樣子說然後這樣子會增加企業多少的成本那你不能只用高科技產業來看你必須要看影響就業人口最多數的中小企業的人"},{"start":468.319,"end":492.974,"text":"他會增加多少成本?基本上我們先滿足中小企業以及一般的商家跟一般的住家的用電我們朝向這一部分剛才我想楊委員也有特別指導我們這一部分的話就是按照這個院長他如果說只是這一部分我們不長的話我們就努力朝這個部分來努力的"},{"start":493.988,"end":510.218,"text":"所以你在不漲電價的情況下你是以節能的方式去因應嗎對對對我們會朝著這個節能的部分來努力臺電的成本呢臺電的虧損呢臺電不會產生虧損不會產生虧損如果我們這個推的數據的話臺電會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉不會不會倒閉是你說的是不是我說的"},{"start":523.611,"end":551.085,"text":"經營公司我想我們不可能讓它倒閉啦這個財務有財務的問題我們會去努力但是我個人認為經營一個公司最重要是效益跟效率的問題台電會不會倒閉那如果不會倒閉就不會產生你的認知是這樣是不是你是說不會缺電不會缺電也不會倒閉不會也不會增加成本"},{"start":552.708,"end":558.373,"text":"不會增加成本也不會有虧損過去的虧損是新的不會虧損對 新的不會虧損總經理要不要說一下是不是不會虧損"},{"start":568.297,"end":582.24,"text":"報告委員部長因為來自於企業界他對整個成本方面都會有要求那我們會把整個的細節再分析給部長聽到時候會做比較詳細的一個瞭解之後再判斷好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153829","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153829","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81929eb287620b3982e59a48fe1a1d57c38a04e565a7cce14ef7a31f6bcd47a9ad15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:29:53 - 10:42:19","影片長度":"00:12:26","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:29:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:42:19+08:00","duration":746,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":380,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時29分）謝謝主席，麻煩國安局長。"],["主席：請國安局蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：局長，這裡有一些是你們揭露的樣態，我要聽聽看你的意見。中共去年「反間諜法」通過，其實不只臺灣，各國都提出警告，因為它的反間諜法的定義不明，然後授權給地方公安、各方人員可以恣意逮捕，事實上也發生了很多對各國人士，包含我國人士的騷擾跟逮捕。今年5月他又實施了「保守國家秘密法」，「保守國家秘密法」更進一步，他懷疑你是間諜，他懷疑你有機密，只要有懷疑就可以了，不用證據，就把你逮捕起來。以上這兩個狀況，本席所描述的，就你們的掌握是否為真？"],["蔡局長明彥：是，這也是為什麼在去年7月中共對外公布「反間諜法」之前，我們到貴院來做相關專案報告時就已經在提醒有這樣的趨勢要注意。"],["王委員定宇：那個情形不是只針對臺灣嘛，我看美國、澳洲、加拿大……"],["蔡局長明彥：都有被……"],["王委員定宇：都有人因為這樣的情況，有的是撤資，美國是正式發出旅行警告，甚至警告商務旅客去中國的可能風險。下個月、今年7月開始，中國根據「保守國家秘密法」又多丟出二個他們的國家安全措施，就是他懷疑任何人，你就要把手機交出來，通訊器材交出來，密碼交出來，否則就先抓再講，這也為真嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以7月份之後，也許有人會說99.9%的人不會被影響，有人會說只要乖乖守規矩就沒關係了，但重點在於如果一個國家政府可以這樣做的時候，人人都要面臨這個風險，這個風險是完全不可迴避，對一個國家，尤其民主國家來說，是不可以發生的，所以國安局有沒有給我們其他相關單位，像外交部旅遊警告啦……"],["蔡局長明彥：有，都有。"],["王委員定宇：陸委會啦等等，你們對於目前去那邊旅遊、經商或拜訪朋友等等，你們正式的警告是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想到對岸去進行相關的旅遊或求學的活動，我們還是要特別提醒，中共因為有一些國安法制在過去這一年多來的強化，一定要特別注意到人身安全以及個人的通訊安全。"],["王委員定宇：因為我看你們提出來的樣態，連那個一貫道拿著素食推廣手冊的也被抓起來，現在回來了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，委員在螢幕上呈現的這些樣態，都是由本局提供給相關單位的。"],["王委員定宇：對，我看到你們有個故事是有一個一貫道的道親，帶著素食……"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個有。"],["王委員定宇：那個人放回來了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該還沒有，還沒有……"],["王委員定宇：還沒有放回來？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，現在因為一些不同的國安原因而遭到中共拘留審判的大概有15員，另外在入出境中國的過程當中遭到騷擾或是留置詢問的大概有47員，但這是我們國安單位掌握到比較具體的個案，而且是當事人或隨團的當事人有通報的個案，這可能只是冰山的一角。"],["王委員定宇：我是透過今天的質詢來呼籲，民眾去中國如果在海關抓進小房間，問你票投哪一黨或問你在擔任村里長之前的軍職工作……"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有、有，都有這樣的問題，確實有這樣的問題。"],["王委員定宇：因為我看到你們有這樣的樣態。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員定宇：我們呼籲民眾在遇到這樣的狀況時應該要向有關單位呈報，請問他應該跟誰回報呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，假如民眾在對岸從事商務或相關旅遊的過程當中有遭到這樣的騷擾的話，我們當然是希望他回到臺灣之後可以立即來跟我們的……"],["王委員定宇：跟誰？跟誰回報？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟我們的……"],["王委員定宇：他總不能去警察局報案說把公安抓起來，你們的回報機制是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：可以跟我們的兩岸事務主管機關來進行通報。"],["王委員定宇：陸委會嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：海基會也可以，陸委會也可以，都可以。"],["王委員定宇：陸委會有這個窗口可以讓他們回報？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該可以，沒有問題。"],["王委員定宇：也就是說，如果民眾遭遇到這樣子莫名其妙的騷擾，或者人身、人權的侵犯，他回來可以向陸委會、海基會相關的窗口來……"],["蔡局長明彥：對、對，有個歸詢的機制。"],["王委員定宇：我建議你們宣導一下這個。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["王委員定宇：因為你們掌握的件數偏低，可能有很多民眾被問以後覺得事情過了就算了。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我覺得應該要呈現一個樣貌，讓我們知道「危邦不入」的這個危邦的數據到底是到多少？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我剛剛也跟委員特別說明了，我們所掌握的數據只是冰山的一角，但是透過國安單位對於當事人的約談以及隨團當事人的說明，我們才能把這個數據列進去。"],["王委員定宇：因為我們今天的主題是關於監控、政府的不當控制，其實要看什麼叫政府的不當控制，只要看中國就知道了，你看中國他們的天網工程，所謂的不當控制是所有的數據、所有的影像、所有的發言可以連結到個人或家人，他可以給你扣分，像社會信用體系，他要扣你的分數，當然要知道你是誰，就連到個資，可以處罰在這邊讀書然後在臺灣臉書po文的中國學生，他的家屬是在山東。我就知道一個個案，有一個老師被公安叫去問，還跟他說：你兒子講話最好注意一點。像昨天在中國東北地區有4個外國人被人用刀捅了，可是在幾秒之後所有網路上的訊息都統統被刪掉了！這個才叫監控，這個監控到個人、到家屬，而且可以處罰、可以警告、可以扣分。像中國會用維穩當理由把人抓進監獄，就是你講話影響國家穩定、你罵了國家領導、你傷害了社會安定，在2023年因為這樣被抓進去關的有240萬人。","所以我們今天這個題目太好了，那個就是國家機器監控了整個社會，在臺灣社會有的人樂於指控臺灣政府，坦白講，國安局如果這麼有本事的話，你就不會在這邊被我問了，換我被抓起來了，有人就樂於指控臺灣社會有監控，更樂於去擁抱監控逮捕240萬人的極權政府，荒謬嘛！局長，你先請回，我請中華電信副總還有NCC副主委上來，事實上，所謂的數據分析跟個資監控，我不知道我這樣的分法對不對，你們兩位也是專家，這就是data跟metadata的差別，如果說用詮釋資料，有人叫做後設資料，有人叫做詮釋資料，有人叫做描述資料，也就是對data這種原始的數據資料，我來描述它的輪廓、描述它的樣貌、描述它的特徵，給予一定的詮釋，這個叫做商業運用大數據人流分析，我這樣的描述有沒有錯誤？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員講得很正確。"],["王委員定宇：它其實有一條線，這條線誰知道呢？現在的高中生、大學生知道啦！就是說今天我如果掌握誰來參加遊行，我可以找到你家、找到你的家人，可以給你處罰、給你警告，那個是透過raw data去監控人民。但是如果我對於一場演唱會、跨年晚會、一場遊行、兩場遊行來描述參加者的平均年齡概括到底在哪個範圍，還有他們的樣貌，所謂的樣貌是數據樣貌、特徵是什麼，這就是這幾年常常在講的大數據分析嘛！我們不是有大數據專家在當立委嗎？就把這兩個混淆在一起，好多個委員會都在問同樣的題目，其實把data跟metadata弄清楚之後，國安局掌握這條線，看有沒有raw data外洩、有沒有raw data被濫用、有沒有raw data被拿出來處理，如果有就是違法，如果沒有，我們不能去扼殺metadata的運用啊！因為在現代社會包含AI在學習的進步當中，metadata是都要用的。","今天我不是調查單位，我沒辦法說誰有、誰沒有，但是我們常常混淆這兩件事情的分際，這樣會讓各大數據公司、電信公司覺得最近還是不要做這個生意了，不敢做商場分析，比方說我不能去描述某個診所的哪個患者患了什麼疾病，因為我會違法，但是我們可以描述在臺灣多少人以下的診所平均有多少人次看的前十大慢性病是什麼，要不然我們每一年公布前十大慢性疾病、前十大癌症是怎麼公布的？那個就叫做metadata嘛！它有很多的運用，比如說有兩場演唱會，前面一場來的觀眾都是50歲的人，因為演唱者唱的是大學城時代的歌；在後面這一場唱的歌是要16蹲，在那邊跳來跳去，觀眾的年齡大概都在30歲以下，這個叫做描述數據、詮釋數據。請問兩位，我們臺灣目前對大數據、人流或者所謂的後設數據、詮釋資料的應用，我們已經進入這個市場多久了？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：跟委員報告，其實早期從LBS到現在的大數據分析，我想已經有10年以上。"],["王委員定宇：有十年多了，然後有的數據叫做第二層數據，這是我們在寫論文用的，我就不贅述。所以我們不要因噎廢食，在政治上可以立場不同、可以互相攻防，甚至於因為在某個地方跌了跤，社會觀感不佳，全部轉移焦點來處理另外的，這個是政治上的攻防，但是不要因為政治上的攻防而去扼殺了一個已經發展十多年的數據或者是外貌這種分析的產業，我也建議NCC有一條線要守住，那條線就叫科學、法律，對這兩件事要守住。兩位請回，我最後一分鐘只請問海巡署副署長，謝副署長，你是警還是軍出身的？"],["謝副署長慶欽：警職。"],["王委員定宇：警職嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：我不知道這邊有沒有海軍出身的人，昨天的海象大概3級，浪高大概2米到3米，然後那一艘到淡水的快艇大概是5噸而已，很小啦！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是7米長、1.97公尺寬。"],["王委員定宇：大概不到5噸。"],["謝副署長慶欽：預判是5噸以下。"],["王委員定宇：應該是不到5噸，浪高2米到3米，從福州直接開到我們這裡，容不容易開？"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們研判是可能的，因為距離大概是135浬左右，大概260公里，那它的油箱有260公升。"],["王委員定宇：他可能帶夠油料了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：但是我看有一群媒體在第一時間報導說有大船換小船，有沒有這個情形？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這部分我們研判是臆測，目前沒有具體的證據，因為我們勘查……"],["王委員定宇：你講他直接開來，這其實也是臆測。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是從油量跟相關的數位證據來看，我們有查扣手機，目前我們有勘查現場，船體沒有任何的吊掛設備，另外根據油量等等相關跡證，他直航過來是包括剛才講的海象……"],["王委員定宇：當事人是主張他直航還是中間中轉？"],["謝副署長慶欽：根據當事人的陳述，他是直航過來的。"],["王委員定宇：我覺得要查清楚啦！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，我們不排除這個可能。"],["王委員定宇：因為我們淡水河口有淡水大營，這是我們國防重鎮，是首都衛戌在本島最重要的一條線，我們的特戰部隊還要守在那邊，如果一艘艇就這樣過來的話，你們昨天的陳述是對的，硬體沒問題，是人的判斷出問題。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：第二個，大艇如果換小艇，這是一個兩棲登陸或者是特戰滲透的作戰方式，所以務必查清楚，國安局當然不主掌國防，這是情報的掌握，因為臺中港一次、淡水一次，在其他港口有沒有，你們根據自己掌握的資訊，你們去分析，我建議不要等閒視之，這樣好不好？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，我們做最嚴格的判斷，我們會做最好的準備。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.387218750000002,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.52096875,"end":51.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.44034375,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.59221875,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.64284375,"end":26.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.68534375,"end":51.837218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.837218750000005,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.92159375,"end":61.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.549093750000004,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.51096875,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.877843750000004,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.02971875,"end":62.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.109718750000006,"end":63.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.126593750000005,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.90284375,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.10471875,"end":97.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.99034375000001,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.63096875000001,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.47409375000001,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.13596875,"end":126.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.13034375000001,"end":121.75034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.99846875000001,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.07784375,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.04221875000002,"end":144.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.85221875000002,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.51846875,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.81346875,"end":149.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.07909375,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.69409375,"end":157.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.03159375,"end":158.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.04846875,"end":158.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.09909375,"end":162.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.42784375000002,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.65534375000001,"end":188.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.35534375,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.51221875000002,"end":197.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.08034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、各方人員,可以恣意逮捕。那事實上也發生了很多對各國人士,包含我國的騷擾。"},{"start":33.154,"end":33.954,"text":"那一個情形不是只針對台灣嗎?"},{"start":63.183,"end":91.024,"text":"我看美國、澳洲、加拿大、歐洲都有人因為這樣子有的撤資有的呢美國是正式發出旅行警告甚至於警告商務旅客去中國的可能風險那下個月今年7月開始中國根據保守國家秘密法又多丟出兩個國家他們的國家安全措施就是他懷疑任何人你就要把手機交出來通訊器材交出來密碼交出來否則就先抓再講"},{"start":91.764,"end":114.571,"text":"這也為真嘛所以7月份之後也許有人會說99.9的人不會被影響也許有人會說這個你叫乖乖守規矩就沒關係了重點在於如果一個國家政府可以這樣做的時候人人都要面臨這個風險這個風險是完全不可迴避那對一個國家尤其民主國家是不可以發聲的"},{"start":115.811,"end":131.672,"text":"所以國安局有沒有給我們其他相關單位像外交部、旅遊警告、陸委會等等你們對於目前去那邊旅遊、經商、去拜訪朋友等等你們正式的警告是什麼"},{"start":132.173,"end":150.407,"text":"對我想到對岸去進行相關的旅遊或求學的活動那我們還是要特別提醒那中共他因為有一些國安法制在過去這一年多來的強化那一定要特別注意到人身安全還有個人的通訊安全因為我看你們提出來的樣態連那個一貫道拿著速食推廣手冊他被抓起來現在回來了嗎"},{"start":151.507,"end":166.924,"text":"對,現在委員所螢幕上呈現的這些樣態都是由本局來提供給相關單位我看到你們有個故事是有一個一貫道的道青,帶著素食的有有有,這個有那個人放回來了沒?應該,還沒有還沒有,跟我說明一下,現在因為"},{"start":167.805,"end":171.346,"text":"我通過今天質詢呼籲我們民眾去中國若在海關被你抓進小房間問你票投哪一檔"},{"start":194.951,"end":216.444,"text":"問你在當任村里長之前的軍職過程都有這樣的問題我看到你們有這樣的樣態我們是應該呼籲民眾遇到這個狀況應該要向有關單位呈報那他應該跟誰回報呢對 假如民眾在對岸從事商務或相關旅遊的過程當中有遭到這樣的騷擾的話我們當然是希望他回到台灣之後可以立即來跟跟誰 跟誰回報他總不能去警察局報案說"},{"start":219.206,"end":219.286,"text":"海基會、陸委會"},{"start":229.554,"end":256.326,"text":"有這個窗口可以讓你們回報應該可以,沒有問題如果民眾遭遇到這樣子莫名其妙的騷擾或者人身、人權的侵犯他回來可以向陸委會、海基會相關的窗口來我建議你們這個宣導一下因為你們掌握的建樹偏低啦可能很多民眾,哎呀,沒問題,過就算啦應該呈現一個樣貌讓我們知道違邦不入這個違邦的數據到底到多少"},{"start":256.886,"end":277.748,"text":"對,我剛剛也跟委員特別說明了,我們剛剛掌握的數據只是冰山的一角,那是透過國安單位有對於當事人的約談以及隨團當事人的說明,我們才能把這個數據列進去。因為我們今天的主題叫做這個監控啊,政府的不當控制,其實要看什麼叫政府不當控制,看中國就知道,你看中國,他們的天網工程,"},{"start":278.769,"end":304.841,"text":"所謂的不當控制是所有的數據所有的影像所有的發言可以連結到個人或家人他可以給你扣分像社會信用體系他要扣你的分數當然要知道你是誰就連到各支可以處罰你在台灣臉書PO文的在這邊讀書的中國學生他的家屬在山東我就知道一個個案當老師就被公安叫去問說你兒子講話最好注意一點"},{"start":305.481,"end":323.512,"text":"就像在昨天中國東北地區有4個外國人被人用刀捅了之後幾秒之後所有網路上的訊息這個通刪掉了這個才叫監控這個監控到個人到家屬可以處罰可以警告可以扣分所以像中國光2023年用維穩當理由"},{"start":327.054,"end":345.434,"text":"抓進監獄裡維穩就是你講話影響國家穩定你罵了國家領導你傷害了社會安定被抓進去關的有240萬人所以這題目我們今天題目太好了那個就是國家機器監控整個社會國家機器監控整個社會"},{"start":346.769,"end":372.735,"text":"那在台灣社會有的人樂於指控台灣政府坦白講啦 管局有這麼有本事的話你不會在那邊被我問的啦換我被抓起來了啦就樂於指控台灣社會有監控更樂於去擁抱監控逮捕240萬人的極權政府荒謬嘛所以我回到那個 局長先請回我請中華電信那個副總喔NCC來請上來齁"},{"start":379.346,"end":391.428,"text":"事實上所謂的數據分析跟各自監控我不知道我這樣分法對不對兩位也是專家data跟metadata的差別"},{"start":392.571,"end":418.052,"text":"如果說用詮釋資料有人叫做後設資料有人叫做詮釋資料有人叫描述資料也就是datadata就是原始的數據資料我來描述它的輪廓描述它的樣貌描述它的特徵給予一定的詮釋這個叫做商業運用大數據人流分析我這樣描述有沒有錯誤"},{"start":419.741,"end":447.294,"text":"委員講得很正確這其實有一條線啦這條線誰知道呢現在高中生、大學生知道啦就是說今天我如果掌握誰來遊行我可以找到你家找到你的家人給你處罰、給你警告那個是透過RAW DATA去監控人民那如果我透過一場演唱會跨年晚會一場遊行、兩場遊行我來描述說它的平均年齡概括到底在哪裡"},{"start":448.174,"end":461.244,"text":"他的樣貌所謂的樣貌是數據樣貌特徵是什麼這就是幾年常常講的大數據分析嘛我們不是有大數據專家在當立委嗎就把這兩個混淆在一起"},{"start":462.517,"end":489.064,"text":"好多個委員會都在問同樣的題目其實把data跟metadata弄清楚之後國安局掌握這條線有沒有raw data外洩有沒有raw data被濫用有沒有raw data被拿出來處理有違法沒有我們不能去扼殺metadata的運用阿因為這是現代社會包含AI在學習的進步當中metadata都要用的所以"},{"start":489.784,"end":510.539,"text":"我今天我不是調查單位我沒辦法說誰有誰沒有但是我們常常混淆這兩件事情的憤激會讓現在各大數據公司電信公司我看最近不要做調查行李不做了商場分析不敢做比方說我不能去描述某個診所哪個患者患了什麼疾病我違法"},{"start":511.3,"end":526.81,"text":"但我們可以描述說在臺灣的多少人以下的診所平均有多少人次看的是慢性病前十大為什麼要不然我們每一年公佈前十大慢性疾病前十大癌症怎麼公佈的那個就叫做metadata他有很多運用這兩場演唱會"},{"start":530.372,"end":554.873,"text":"前面一場來的都是50歲的因為演唱者唱的是大學成時代的後面這一場唱的唱的都是16噸在那邊跳來跳去的那個年齡大概30歲以下這個叫做描述數據詮釋數據所以兩位我們台灣目前對大數據或者人流或者所謂的厚色數據詮釋資料的應用我們這個市場已經進入多久了"},{"start":555.865,"end":573.326,"text":"我想跟委員報告其實早期從LBS到現在的這個就是大數據的分析我想這個已經有10年以上10年多了啦10年多了啦然後有的數據叫做第二層數據這是我們在寫論文用的我就不贅述所以"},{"start":573.846,"end":598.176,"text":"不要因業廢食不要因為政治上政治上可以立場不同可以互相攻防甚至於因為在某個地方疊了膠社會觀感不佳全部轉移焦點來處理另外這個是政治上的攻防但不要因為政治上的攻防去扼殺了一個發展十多年的數據或者是外貿這種分析的一個產業我也建議NCC有一條線要守住"},{"start":599.036,"end":606.648,"text":"那條線叫科學法律這兩件事把手住來那兩位請回我最後一分鐘只是請問海巡署副署長"},{"start":609.451,"end":638.877,"text":"那個謝副署長你是警還是軍出身的警職我不知道我們這邊有沒有海軍出身的昨天的海象大概三級浪高大概兩米到三米然後那一艘快艇到淡水的快艇是大概五噸而已很小七米長1.97公尺寬大概預判是五噸以下應該是不到五噸浪高兩米到三米從福州直接開到"},{"start":640.27,"end":642.232,"text":"你講他直接開來其實也是臆測"},{"start":667.61,"end":684.744,"text":"從油料跟相關的數位證據來我們手機有查扣那目前就是我們一勘查現場那船體沒有任何的吊掛設備那另外油料等等相關機證它直航過來是包括剛才海象當事人是主張它直航還是中間中轉"},{"start":686.422,"end":706.84,"text":"當事人是陳述是說他是直航過來我覺得查清楚啦因為我們淡水河口有淡水大隱是我們國防重鎮是首都衛旭的本島的最重要一條線我們的特戰部隊還要守在那邊如果一條艇就這樣過來的話你們昨天的陳述對的硬體沒問題是人的判斷出問題第二個"},{"start":708.661,"end":710.443,"text":"我們做最嚴格的判斷,我們會做最好的準備。"},{"start":741.218,"end":744.616,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員"}]}},{"id":"153828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819d5ccd90c181edc4a182e407f268492bca04e565a7cce14ef06c20c6f6eca227a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:29:18 - 10:41:57","影片長度":"00:12:39","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:29:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:41:57+08:00","duration":759,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":434,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請彭金隆主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好！"],["郭委員國文：主委好。主委，剛剛我聽您回答李彥秀委員的答復，有關於新光金前董事長吳東進的部分，今天早上最新的消息，他是以1億元交保。本席不是要問你案情，我想你對個案不評論我尊重，但是事件總有前因後果，因為之前金管會有處罰過，然後這一次也是金管會駐會檢察官移送嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：好，那本席就要請教啦！就這件事情當中，我想請問一下，到底爆發這件事情，有人就說這肯定是內部人所提供的一些資料，一來，可能會加速新新合併的作用；二來呢，也有可能達到延緩增資的效果。雖然剛剛你說不同的法律面，本席同意，但是事件就是有前因後果、就會有連帶的影響關係，就這兩個可能性，主委，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個案子我就第一個問題先回答委員，就是這個案子的成因，我想在過去金融檢查是我們滿例行性的活動，檢查完畢以後呢，我們就會根據這個檢查的意見，比如說這裡面可能我們認為會涉犯到刑責的部分，因為金管會行政機關主政……"],["郭委員國文：金檢後就請教駐會檢察官。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，他們認為有繼續的話，我們就移送……"],["郭委員國文：該移送就移送。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然他們會有他們檢調一定的時間，至於什麼時候發動，這個金管會完全沒有辦法過問，我想這件事情在時程上面，我們是沒辦法去……"],["郭委員國文：類似的案子你手中還有幾個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這部分的話，我們可以請檢查局局長來回答。"],["郭委員國文：檢查局張局長待會兒stand by一下，那這兩件事情的後果？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想過去新光金也好，台新金也好，針對這兩家合併，媒體上對他們的動作也有做一些發布，大家當然會有很多臆測，我想我作為一個金管會主委，我不會去臆測這之間的關聯性，但是我們都會密切注意……"],["郭委員國文：增資有沒有可能延緩？本席直接問。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個增資計畫剛才局長已經說明過，我們正在審核。"],["郭委員國文：就是照常進行不會延緩？"],["彭主任委員金隆：按照程序……"],["郭委員國文：不會受到此事件的影響？合併會不會加速？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是兩回事。合併的話，我們有一定的程序，就是比如說，我們合併的方法有很多種，法律上很多的架構上，它要一定的程序跟申請的過程。"],["郭委員國文：所以一切按照行政程序處理，不會受到影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就依法行政的角度來講的話，我們會考慮各種各種的因素，但是我們不會因為某些案件而做一些法規上的調整。"],["郭委員國文：好，那你稍坐休息，張子浩局長，你手頭上還有多少案子？目前。"],["張局長子浩：我們洽駐會檢察官移送之後，其實我手上現在沒有資料，我也沒有特別去……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我說你手頭上還有沒有類似這種案子？"],["張局長子浩：要去洽駐會檢察官的目前是沒有。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，好，請回。謝謝！主委，另外同樣一個案件，我就就教於您，今年1月30號這一個移送是不是金管會移送的？台中商銀到底是新北地檢署主動偵辦，還是金管會移送？這個案子，主委，你瞭解的部分？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可不可以請檢查局長，是不是這個案子……"],["郭委員國文：同樣的案件啊！"],["張局長子浩：對，我知道，我的印象是新北已經先有案子了，我們就把案子移送給它。"],["郭委員國文：是由新北地檢署主動偵辦，顯然不是金管會移送嘛！那為什麼這兩個案子相差這麼多？主委，你可能要瞭解清楚，你剛上任喔！我不會去太過苛責，但是顯有蹊蹺，你看看1月30號起訴之後，2月1號你們就開罰1,200萬，掏空案總共是10億。而這兩天，你們前天才公布說，今年前5月銀行、證券、保險、全體上市櫃公司總共開罰9,890萬，其中銀行最多、銀行局最多，銀行局當中的金額最高的就是台中商銀，很巧喔！有沒有很巧？一切都發生得很巧。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，這是因為檢調機關要發動，其實我們沒辦法控制。"],["郭委員國文：我說這時間點有沒有很巧嘛？主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我沒辦法評論是不是巧合。"],["郭委員國文：這一天起訴，隔天你們就開罰，沒有很巧嗎？本席強烈建議你，最好先瞭解清楚啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是。"],["郭委員國文：外面都說這可能是金管會在補破網啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們再瞭解，再跟委員報告。"],["郭委員國文：我不希望再看到這麼巧的事件再發生，主委，但是我會持續關心。第二件呢，也是最近吵得沸沸揚揚的，當初國泰金最大的股東是萬寶開發，它拿到全家第二大股東的身分，說要搶全家的三席董事。第一個我想請教主委，這有沒有牽扯到違反產金分離的原則？第二個，當初萬寶開發取得全家股權的時候有強調純財務投資，如果要派董事的話會跟金管會溝通。這兩點就教主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員，其實我們過去常提到產金分離，產金分離的概念我們落實在法規上主要是兩點……"],["郭委員國文：有沒有違反這件事情？"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是我先跟委員明一下。"],["郭委員國文：是，請說重點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：產金分離是一個概念，不是一個法律規定，這個概念落實在兩個主要的法規上面，一個比如說金融機構的負責人不可以兼任其他非金融機構的負責人；再來比如說金控公司投資非金融相關事業的股權不可以超過一定的比例，比如說5%，用這樣的方式達到。產金分離是大家的概念，其實產金分離的概念並不是強制……"],["郭委員國文：這個案子是幾percent？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分主要是萬寶是國泰金控的大股東，它不是我們納管的金融機構……"],["郭委員國文：這有延伸性。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它是大股東沒錯，所以我們也有關心這一件事情，至於未來怎麼做，有關這個部分可不可以請局長……"],["郭委員國文：指派董事有沒有跟你溝通？莊局長。"],["莊局長琇媛：剛剛委員說的都對，其實去年我們就有找它來溝通，它確實告訴我們，因為他們沒有指派董事……"],["郭委員國文：現在又指派了。"],["莊局長琇媛：對，我們當時是說你要指派董事的時候要事先讓我們知道，因為當初認為它沒有指派董事，其實就產金分離的精神而言是符合的。現在……"],["郭委員國文：可是如果就產金分離來看，你也知道全家有很多ATM，將來它combine在一起的話，請問一下有沒有分離？"],["莊局長琇媛：應該算是利害關係人的……"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["莊局長琇媛：對，利害關係人的交易，可是利害關係人的交易在金控法或者是銀行法裡面，只是要遵守利害關係人的程序而已。"],["郭委員國文：局長，我慎重提醒，它之前的承諾跟後面的行為恐怕不太一致，要嚴加監管。主委，也請你注意一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：回到本階段，我必須肯定主委這次分四個階段，你的態度是要修法，講得非常明確，而且你也把本席長期以來所說的差異化管理都納入，這個本席都予以肯定。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：但是對於廣度監管的部分，我還是覺得你稍嫌保守。剛剛談到的他律本席不討論太多，我談自律的部分。明天就要成立公會，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：他們成立公會當中我要問你，之前的王牌、幣竟都有捲入一些弊案，甚至幣竟的營運長還被收押，王牌也是如此，這兩家都在二十五家裡面，這兩家你要怎麼處理？你有沒有暫停、停止其營業內容？你有沒有要求撤銷原來的法遵聲明？你有沒有做任何行政處分？有沒有？我看都沒有。他們明天還要籌組公會，聽說幣竟還要當理事長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有……"],["郭委員國文：你不覺得這很奇怪嗎？法遵聲明就是要讓他們洗白，給他們良民證，講白一點就是這樣子。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛講到涉犯那個事件的是他們公司的前負責人，當然我們也很關注明天他們……"],["郭委員國文：就是法人，同一法人啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：公會成立以後，也是我們開始納管很重要的步驟。"],["郭委員國文：主委，我提醒你，公會的成員以後要訂定自律規範。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["郭委員國文：自律規範很關鍵。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，沒錯，我們也非常關注。"],["郭委員國文：如果一群沒有洗白、有案底的業者占的比例比較高，你期待它弄出什麼樣的自律規範？主委，我請教你。"],["彭主任委員金隆：自律規範也要報主管機關備查。"],["郭委員國文：當然，可是文來文往，規範來規範去，就是很小面積的自我規範，自律程度不足，你在管理上不是也很麻煩、很困擾嗎？主委，你要跟它講白，這一張良民證要發給你，可以，但是你如果犯了什麼錯，良民證就馬上收回來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個會納入考慮，而且未來自律規範的規定現在有初步的架構，就是我們前面頒布的指導原則，這幾個原則其實就是國際上納管VASP很重要的幾個原則，我們希望充分落實到自律規範裡面……"],["郭委員國文：好，你寫了八點，本席都有在看，這原則都要一一納入，而且還要嚴格執行。第二個，現在都是以國內的業者為主，剛剛我就是要問你很大的一個問題，廣度監管方面，stand by的還有61家最好能夠納管，避免檢察官持續抱怨只有入刑的考量。這裡頭有兩個關鍵點，第一個，現在國內大部分消費者交易的對象都還是國際平臺，對不對？你下一步有沒有納入國際平臺的可能性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也在我們的法規範圍內，但是它一樣要滿足現在的要求。"],["郭委員國文：對，如果有國際、國外的業者你也不排斥，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們在法規裡面已經……"],["郭委員國文：都有規範。"],["彭主任委員金隆：都在裡面。"],["郭委員國文：你如果納入國外的幣商，至少形成一個規範，以後國外的幣商來這邊有一個遊戲規則。"],["彭主任委員金隆：落地就歸本國的監理範圍。"],["郭委員國文：好，最後我問你一點，金管會有沒有可能對幣商採取像內線交易、炒股，還有包括擔任投顧的這些行為，做一定程度的行政調查？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在專法裡面再來針對業務行為規範。"],["郭委員國文：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們現在初步就是洗錢防制的概念。"],["郭委員國文：對，如果將來在執法的規範上多一個行政調查的話，或許這樣會比較妥適一點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，未來在專法的時候我們可以考慮。"],["郭委員國文：對，用行政權進行規範，將來整個司法權承擔的程度比較不會過度勞累。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：我有充分地轉達劍青改的意見，也請政次能夠回去說明一下。好，謝謝主委的回復。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，我們結束郭國文召委的質詢。","好，接下來我們請王鴻薇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ VASP 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剛剛我聽您回答李燕秀委員的這個答覆有關於這個新光金前董事長吳東進的部分今天早上最新的消息他是以議員交保本席不是要問你案情我向你對個案不評論我尊重但是事件總有前因後果因為之前金管會有處罰過"},{"start":45.366,"end":63.492,"text":"這次也是金管會駐會檢察官移送本席就要請教這件事情當中我想請問一下到底爆發這件事情有人就說這肯定是內部人所提供的一些資料"},{"start":64.392,"end":86.838,"text":"一來可能會加速新興合併的作用二來也有可能達到延緩增資的效果雖然剛剛你講說不同的法律面本席同意但是事件就是有前因後果就會有連帶的影響關係就這兩個可能性主委您的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":88.513,"end":106.059,"text":"這個案子我先就第一個問題先回答委員就是這個案子的成因我想在過去我們在檢查的金融檢查是我們蠻例行性的活動檢查完畢以後呢我們就會根據這個檢查的意見比如說這裡面可能我們認為會涉犯到刑責的部分"},{"start":107.239,"end":126.941,"text":"行政局委員會主政他們就認為有具體的話我們就移給他們當然他們會有他們檢調的一定的時間至於說至於什麼時候發動這完全跟金管會沒辦法過問我想這件事情那個時程上面我們是沒辦法去...畢業式的案子你手中還有幾個"},{"start":129.173,"end":148.844,"text":"這部分的話我們可以請那個檢察局局長檢察局局長張局長待會隨便拜一下那後果後果這兩件事情的後果剛剛就比如說我想這個過去在新光晶也好台新晶也好也針對這個兩家合併在媒體上也在他們一些的動作上也有做一些發布那大家當然會很多臆測我想我做一個"},{"start":150.535,"end":167.9,"text":"這個金管會主委我不會去臆測這個之間的關聯性但是我們都會密切注意到政治有沒有可能延緩本席直接問他這個政治計畫剛才那個局長已經說明過我們正在審核就是照常進行不會延緩不會受到史事件影響合併會不會加速"},{"start":168.991,"end":194.847,"text":"合併的話我們有一定的程序就是比如說我們合併的方法有很多種法律上很多的架構上他要一定的程序跟申請的過程所以一件按照行政程序處理不會受到影響?就我們就是依法行政的角度來講的話我們會考慮各種各種的因素但是我們不會因為某些案件而做一些法規上的調整那你稍作休息張子昊局長你手頭上還有多少案子?"},{"start":196.906,"end":198.648,"text":"主委另外同樣一個案件我就就教於您"},{"start":215.371,"end":235.925,"text":"今年1月30日這個移送是不是金管會移送?臺中商業到底是新北地檢署主動偵辦還是金管會移送?這個案子我可不可以請檢察局長是不是這個案子?同樣的案件對我知道"},{"start":242.246,"end":257.594,"text":"我的印象是那個是新北已經先有案子了我們把案子就移送給他就是新北是由新北地檢署這個主動偵辦嘛那顯然不是金管會移送嘛對啊那為什麼這兩個案子相差這麼多"},{"start":258.908,"end":268.076,"text":"主委你可能要了解清楚喔你剛上任喔我不會太過苛責啦但是顯有蹊蹺啦你看看1月30號請訴之後2月1號你們就開罰"},{"start":272.438,"end":297.854,"text":"一千兩百萬掏空案總共是十億而這兩天你們前天才公布說今年前五月銀行、證券、保險上市櫃公司總共開罰九千八百九十萬其中銀行最多銀行局最多銀行局當中金額最高的就是台中商銀很巧齁有沒有很巧一切都發生了很巧"},{"start":299.634,"end":322.695,"text":"這跟委員報告就是因為減掉機關要發動其實我們沒辦法控制我說這時間點有沒有很巧嘛主委這我沒辦法評論是不是巧合這一天起訴隔天你們就開罰沒有很巧嗎本席強烈建議你最好先了解清楚啦外面都說這可能是金管會在捕破網啦"},{"start":325.717,"end":349.271,"text":"我們再瞭解再跟委員報告我不希望再看到這麼巧的事件再發生主委但是我會持續關心第二件也是最近吵得沸沸揚揚這一個當初國泰金最大的股東萬寶開發他拿到全家現在第二大股東說要搶全家三席董事"},{"start":350.56,"end":372.438,"text":"第一個我要請教主委這也沒有牽扯到違反產經分離的原則第二個當初萬寶開發取得全家的股權的時候有強調存財務投資如果要派董事的話只派董事的話會跟金管會溝通這兩點就叫主委"},{"start":375.087,"end":399.699,"text":"謝謝委員其實我們在過去常提到產金分離產金分離的概念我們如果落實在我們的法規上有沒有違反這件事情沒有主要是我先跟委員說明一下產金分離是一個概念它不是一個法律的規定這個概念落實在我們兩個主要的法規上面一個就是說比如說金融機構的負責人不可以去兼任其他的非金融機構負責人"},{"start":400.919,"end":417.977,"text":"再來就是說我們的比如說比如金融機構投資比如像金融公司投資非金融相關事業的股權不可以超過一定比例比如說5%像金融公司他用這樣的方式來達到這個至於說產金分離是一個大家的概念其實產金分離的概念並不是一個說強制所以那這個案子是幾%?"},{"start":421.548,"end":449.001,"text":"這個部分主要是萬寶是國泰金控的大股東他不是國泰他不是我們納管的所謂的金融機構他是有延伸性但是他是一個大股東是沒錯所以說我們也有關心這件事情這個部分剛剛就至於說未來怎麼做的話我想說這個那局長這邊有關這個部分可不可以請局長再有沒有跟你溝通啊指派董事有沒有跟你溝通啊莊局長"},{"start":450.642,"end":478.476,"text":"報告委員 剛剛委員說的都對啦因為其實去年的時候我們就有找他來溝通對他確實告訴我們說因為他們沒有指派董事對現在又指派啦對 那所以我們當時是說如果您有任何要指派董事的時候要事先跟我們 讓我們知道因為當初就認為說他沒有指派董事其實就產經分離的精神而言其實是符合的啦"},{"start":479.056,"end":506.818,"text":"那現在可是如果說就產經分離你也知道全家有很多ATM嗎將來它如果砍敗在一起呢這請問一下有沒有分離啊對這應該就是就是算是利害關係人的利害關係人的交易可是利害關係人的交易在我們的不管是金控法或者是銀行法裡面其實只是要遵守那個利害關係人的程序而已局長我慎重提醒啦齁"},{"start":507.398,"end":528.368,"text":"他之前的承諾跟後面的行為恐怕不太一致要嚴加的監管主委也請你注意一下謝謝回到本階段主委我必須肯定你這次分四個階段而且你態度說要修法講得非常明確而且你也把本席長期以來所要說的差異化管理都納入了這個本席都予以肯定"},{"start":529.048,"end":554.641,"text":"但是對有一個部分的廣度監管的部分我還是覺得你稍前保守而剛剛談到的這個貪慮的部分本席不討論太多我談自律的部分明天就要成立了工會嘛 對不對對 是在成立工會當中我要問你的之前的王牌畢竟都有潛入一些弊案甚至畢竟的這個營運長還被收邀王牌也是如此類似這種這兩家都在25家裡面欸"},{"start":555.862,"end":568.267,"text":"你這兩家你要怎麼處理你有沒有暫停停止其營業內容你有沒有要求其撤銷其原來的這個法制聲明你有沒有做任何行政處分有沒有我看都沒有欸他們還會明天要籌組工會聽說畢竟還要當理事長欸"},{"start":575.578,"end":599.239,"text":"你不覺得這很奇怪嗎?你本來法尊聲明就是要讓他們洗白、給他們良民證講白點就這樣子剛剛那個涉犯事件是他們公司的前負責人當然我們也很關注明天他們大概就是法人啊、同一法人啊工會成立以後也是我們開始納管的很重要的步驟"},{"start":600.578,"end":618.474,"text":"主委 我提醒你喔 工會的成員以後是要訂定次率規範欸是的次率規範很關鍵欸是沒錯 這是我們也非常非常關注的如果一群啊 沒有洗白 有all day的業者的話 占的比例比較高你期待他弄出什麼樣的次率規範啊 主委"},{"start":619.435,"end":641.332,"text":"我請教你自律規範也要報主管機關來備查當然啊可是他文來文往他那個規範來規範去就是很小的面積的自我規範自律程度不足你不是管理上也很麻煩很困擾所以你要跟他講白我這一張良民證要發給你可以但是你如果犯了什麼錯良民證我就馬上可以收回來"},{"start":642.232,"end":656.722,"text":"這個我們會納入考慮就是說這部分未來自立規範的規定我們現在有初步的架構就是我們前面有頒布的指導原則這幾個原則其實就是國際上面納管VASP很重要的幾個原則我們希望充分的落實到這個自立規範裡面去"},{"start":658.151,"end":681.841,"text":"你寫了八點你寫了八點我本席都有在看這原則都要一一納入而且還要嚴格執行第二個你現在都是以國內的業者為主啦國內的業者為主剛剛我就是要問你一個很大的一個問題廣度監管你最好他stand by的還有61家的部分能夠納管的部分這避免檢察官持續在抱怨的只有入刑的考量這裡頭有兩個一個關鍵點"},{"start":683.322,"end":710.491,"text":"第一個我們現在大部分國內的這個消費者所交易的對象都是還是國際的這個平台啊對不對你下一步有沒有要納入國際的平台的可能性這也在我們的這個法規範圍之內但是他一樣要滿足我們現在的要求對如果有國際國外的業者你也不排斥嘛對不對這我們在法規裡面就已經都有規範因為你如果納入國外的這個B商的話你至少形成一個規範嘛以後國外的B商來這邊的話有一個遊戲規則嘛"},{"start":712.011,"end":727.802,"text":"落地就歸本國的監理範圍裡面最後我問你一點主席站起來最後一點金管會有沒有可能對這個必殺有沒有可能採取類似像鏈系交易、炒股還有包括擔任投顧的這些行為做一定程度的行政調查有沒有可能"},{"start":729.022,"end":757.834,"text":"這個齁 我們在那個專法裡面我們再來針對業務行為在這個規範我們現在初步就是洗錢防制的概念對 如果說將來在執法的規範上有多一個行政調查的話或許啊 這樣會比較妥適一點啦謝謝委員我想說在未來專法的時候我們可以來考慮對 用行政權進行規範的話將來的整個司法權的這個承擔的程度也比較不會那麼過度勞累啦我有充分的轉達這一個建清改的意見也請那個政次能夠回去說明一下"},{"start":758.215,"end":758.761,"text":"好 謝謝主委謝謝委員 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153827","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819b4e896dfd11f9bbd59a48fe1a1d57c38a04e565a7cce14ef1929f9a8c62863435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:18:58 - 10:29:35","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:18:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:29:35+08:00","duration":637,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":343,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時18分）謝謝主席，有請局長跟中華電信好了，謝謝。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：局長好。因為今天的題目是在講國安局對於國安資訊是怎麼定義的，但是剛剛前面又發生很多事情，剛剛其實局長講得很好，就是說第五縱隊是一個不容易定性、很模糊的概念，這個也是我一直主張的，所以我不知道剛剛黃仁委員在講什麼，但無論如何，我們對於風險高低這件事情是真的需要去認定。","剛好今天早上有一個新聞，所以我想先從這個新聞談起，這一次是在虎尾，之前一直都會有人說什麼到底武器要不要放在虎尾那邊什麼等等的爭議，在選舉前一週的時候，虎尾鎮的民眾有收到一個簡訊說危險！虎尾會設導彈基地，一旦爆炸，方圓10公里將無人倖存，不知道局長還記不記得這件事情？有一陣子了。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：結果今天地檢署出了一份應該是不起訴，這個不起訴裡面就有提到，發現這一個發簡訊的門號是由「上海創藍雲智信息科技股份有限公司」去向臺灣的一個叫互動公司承租，所以看起來它是由這個公司承租之後再發簡訊，所以我看起來……因為它寫得不是很清楚，但看起來是企業簡訊，就是那一類的企業簡訊。","這邊其實跟今天的題目非常有關係，第一個，顯然這是一個中國的公司，結果在選舉前發送簡訊，這是一個很大的問題；第二個是因為它發送的只有在虎尾鎮，因為只有在虎尾鎮，它只有兩個方式，一個就是它行動基地臺直接設在那邊，但我想它應該不是這樣子，因為它都已經透過這家互動公司了，另外一個情形應該就是它掌握了虎尾鎮這邊的門號資訊，所以它才知道要發給誰。","所以第一個想先問的是，因為這是今天才看到的，這件事情的掌握度如何？第二個是想問中華電信像這一種，因為企業簡訊是合法的，所以像這種情形如果再度發生，它的確已經干擾了我們的選舉，破壞臺灣的民主制度。那以後我們應該要如何應處？"],["蔡局長明彥：先就國安的角度跟委員說明跟報告，是不是再請中華電信補充說明？"],["沈委員伯洋：對，沒問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：因為它發生的時間點確實是在選舉之前，我們注意到中共現在的對臺介選的手法越來越細緻化，所以以這個案例來講，可以發現到它是針對虎尾當地比較引起關注的基地設置的問題，來操作相關的錯假訊息跟爭議訊息，這大概是第一部分。","那第二部分是它傳播錯假訊息的主要管道跟手法，有的當然是在網路上來進行，有的是透過手機簡訊來進行，因為這有涉及到部分的商業活動，所以這部分是不是容許我請中華電信來做說明？"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，中華電信提供的是通訊服務，所以在網路上端到端這些通訊服務的內容，在中華電信公司這邊，我們是無權也不會去做相關的檢視。但是比如說簡訊這個部分，像近期我們配合主管機關，依照主管機關的指導去做打詐、堵詐相關的防制，對於相關的事項，如果依法令需要中華電信配合的地方，我想我們會完全協助來做處理。但還是要再重複的跟委員報告，中華電信是通訊服務的公司，我們對內容是不會去做檢視的。"],["沈委員伯洋：這個我知道，就是以中華電信的角度，因為中華電信畢竟是以提供服務為主，它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情，所以我覺得這件事情可能需要後續的追蹤，剛好今天透過卓冠廷議員把這一個po出來，我們才知道這件事情，這是第一個。","所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情，就是臺灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的，那臺灣人的個資被蒐集、最主要蒐集的對象是誰？監控是誰？我覺得我們常常會搞錯整體討論的方向，中國在蒐集臺灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的，我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2,300萬的資料，又或者健保相關的資料，那是中國駭客放上去的，所以當這些資料能夠被取得，或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候，這個時候其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢，不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或者在選舉的時候，它都可以做相關的一些利用。","所以，第一件事情，我現在想再問，國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過，因為剛好中華電信在這裡，我想問一下，因為中華電信自己的廣告上也提到有「人潮客群分析平台」的服務，螢幕上這些服務都是中華電信寫的；至於遠傳的部分，在站內用戶行為追蹤的個人化的第二行這邊有寫到「亦可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID Unification」，我覺得這個很正常啦，他自己都有IMSI嘛，他有SIM卡的資訊啦。所以我想問一下，之前在其他場域質詢的時候都有問中華電信有沒有把這些資料提供給政黨或提供給什麼，因為中華電信的確有這些資料，請問可不可以在這邊再說明一次？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，就單一事件而言，我想中華電信的回復都是一樣的，沒有；就人流分析的部分，也再跟委員報告，我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用，所以不會有涉及到個資的議題。"],["沈委員伯洋：下一個問題就是說，在去識別化的狀況之下，有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較？因為你已經去識別化了嘛，去識別化了之後，譬如說，發生在A地跟發生在B地的人有沒有重疊？這個按照你們本來提供的服務是有辦法去做比對的嘛。"],["林副總經理文智：這個部分，因為去識別化以後，基本上是輪廓資料，有關於輪廓資料的比對，我想就會是輪廓上的比對，不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以至少會有輪廓的比對嘛。"],["林副總經理文智：對，輪廓的部分，就像大家在做一般性的數據分析，總會對自己辦的活動，每一次的event……"],["沈委員伯洋：性別、年齡之類的。"],["林副總經理文智：去做一下成效的比較。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來，要特定到個人，其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情，目前在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這些事情的，其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司啦，因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過任何的服務去購買資料。譬如說手遊；又譬如看天氣的app，這些都會取得很多手機上其他的資訊；Android ID在某個版本之前甚至是可以被拿到的；還有Device ID等等之類的，更不要說早期要還可以拿IMEI，現在沒有辦法拿到，很多服務的公司取得這樣的資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司。所以目前我在檯面上看到的，能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司。所以這邊反過來講，我是想要問局長，現在廣告公司掌握的這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多，就是那種第三方的廣告公司，它不一定是哪一個國家的，有可能是跨國的企業，對於這種第三方廣告公司，我們國安單位當然不可能直接跟他們合作，這是一定的，但是這些第三方廣告公司如果去跟中國合作，讓我們的個資大量的被中國掌握，這件事情我們應該要怎麼防？"],["蔡局長明彥：對電信公司來講，他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關法規來進行，這部分假如有相關情資的話，我們當然也會跟相關的調查機關或檢察機關來進行舉發，當然這部分必須要具體的證據。比較擔心的是現在中共對於網路侵害的手法也是越來越積極，技術也不斷的在進階，這部分是我們比較擔心的，也就是說，除了政府部門以外，民間私有公司怎麼樣來強化自己的資安作為，讓資安的環境更具有韌性，避免用戶資料可能遭到對岸以網駭的手法來竊取，這或許是我們另外一個必須要來關注的角度。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為目前打詐四法的推出，對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範，但怕就是怕有些廣告公司在臺灣是完全沒有落地的。雖然這次有一些落地的條款，但只是半落地，如果說今天的服務甚至是中國提供的，因為臺灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務，所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走，我認為這可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境。這件事情到底要怎麼做，我覺得這個可能是質詢二、三十分鐘都講不完的地方，所以我先打住在這裡。","最後只是想問一下，符合今天的題目，就是以目前來講，國安資訊如何定義？我看到在報告上面也有提到通訊保障及監察法第七條，也就是說，譬如像我們今天有一些社會運動什麼等等之類的，民間企業就像剛剛所講的，會做這些人流分析、輪廓分析等等之類的，以國安局的角度來講，最主要都是以通保法第七條為主……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：除了這個以外呢？譬如說今天大家都在談青鳥行動，以國安局的角度來講，什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的？有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，主要涉及到的還是要依照法律規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的，就是在通訊保障跟監察法授權下所進行的通訊監察，就這個部分來講，所謂涉及到國安的資訊，主要涉及到的有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外、境內以及跨境的相關活動資訊，這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全，有涉及到這一部分的問題的話，我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案審核，審核完之後，再送請高等法院來進行裁核，可以的話才會由本人，也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊監察書給司法警察機關，所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，看起來這個應該不是一個與境外敵對勢力有關的案件啦。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，並不是。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝局長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：待會洪申翰委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘。","現在請王定宇召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":7.152218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.29596875,"end":5.7009687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.785343750000001,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.26096875,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.78409375000001,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.03721875000001,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.48596875000001,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.48159375,"end":147.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.78846875000002,"end":187.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.29846875,"end":152.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.62221875,"end":185.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.03971875000002,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.72721875000002,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.96346875,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.08909375000002,"end":202.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.91534375,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.80096875,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.26909375000002,"end":232.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.50096875000003,"end":337.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.36221875,"end":356.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.85284375000003,"end":373.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.55909375000005,"end":380.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.23721875,"end":387.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.60784375000003,"end":385.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.48096875000005,"end":389.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.50596875,"end":398.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.35721875,"end":398.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.92221875,"end":478.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.89284375000005,"end":521.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.02971875,"end":582.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.2353437500001,"end":622.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.27409375,"end":604.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.87659375,"end":610.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.7990937500001,"end":620.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.26284375,"end":626.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.62096875,"end":626.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.90346875,"end":629.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.62471875,"end":629.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.77596875,"end":632.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.79284375,"end":632.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.97846875,"end":633.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.40034375,"end":633.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.4172187500001,"end":633.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.90659375,"end":634.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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謝謝跟各位報告齁我想中華電信提供的是通訊服務齁所以在網路上端到端這些通訊的服務的內容在中華電信公司這邊我們是無權也不會去做相關的這個檢視但是在比如說"},{"start":204.926,"end":231.594,"text":"簡訊這一個部分向近期我們配合那個跟主管機關依照主管機關指導去做相關的這一個打詐上面賭詐的這個防治所以相關的事項如果在依法令需要中華電信配合的地方我想我們會完全協助來做處理這一個事情但是還是要再重複的跟委員報告中華電信是通訊服務的公司我們對內容是不會去做檢視的"},{"start":232.794,"end":256.948,"text":"這個我知道就是說以中華電信的角度因為畢竟中華電信是以提供服務為主那它等於是在利用我們這些任何可以提供的服務去遂行這件事情所以我覺得這件事情可能是需要後續的追蹤那剛好透過卓冠廷議員今天把這一個PO出來我們才知道了這件事情那這是第一個所以我覺得我們必須要認清一件事情就是台灣人的個資是一定有被蒐集的"},{"start":257.828,"end":274.934,"text":"那台灣的各自被搜集最主要搜集的對象是誰?監控是誰?我覺得我們常常會搞錯那整體討論的方向中國在搜集台灣的資訊才是最無遠弗屆的我們今天在暗網上面看到的那一些2300萬的資料又或者健保相關的資料"},{"start":275.734,"end":300.304,"text":"那是中國駭客放上去的所以當這些資料能夠被取得或者說有任何的商業用途被拿走的時候呢這個時候呢其實是中國可以利用這樣的情勢不管今天是在戰爭爆發的時候或在選舉的時候大家都可以做相關的一些利用所以呢第一件事情我現在想再問這個國安的這個部分我先稍微跳過因為剛好中華電信在這裡我想問一下就是說因為這邊呢"},{"start":301.164,"end":325.577,"text":"中華電信自己的廣告上面也有提到有人潮客群的分析平台的服務然後這邊都是中華電信寫的那遠傳這邊甚至有寫到說在個人化的第二行這邊可瞭解單一用戶並整合ID的unification那這個我覺得是很正常的他自己都有IMSI嘛他有SIM卡的資訊然後呢後面這邊不對這邊是放遠傳的所以我想問一下就是說"},{"start":326.317,"end":328.018,"text":"跟委員報告就單一事件而言我想中華電信的回覆都是一樣的沒有"},{"start":345.787,"end":373.007,"text":"這一個人流分析的部分也在跟委員報告我們一定是去識別化之後做的數據分析應用所以不會有涉及到各自的議題那下一個問題就是說在去識別化的狀況之下那有沒有辦法做不同場域的比較因為你已經去識別化了嘛那去識別化了之後呢比如說發生在AD跟發生在BD的人有沒有重疊這個按照你們本來的提供服務是有辦法去做比對的嗎"},{"start":374.436,"end":398.356,"text":"這個部分去識別的話基本上是輪廓資料所以輪廓資料的這個比對呢我想就會是輪廓上的比對不會是個人資訊上這些方向跟內容的比對所以至少會有輪廓的比對嗎對,輪廓的部分就像大家在做一般性的數據分析總會對自己辦的活動每一次的event去做一下性別、年齡等這些比較"},{"start":399.777,"end":414.349,"text":"再來要特定到個人其實我認為這不應該是中華電信能夠做的事情但目前在我們就是說已在這個資訊世界裡面能夠做到這件事情的其實比較多的是外面的廣告公司因為外面的這些廣告公司都會透過"},{"start":414.969,"end":415.249,"text":"有限公司列席"},{"start":430.086,"end":448.622,"text":"更不要說早期還可以拿IMEI那現在沒有辦法拿到所以廣告公司會取得很多這樣的資料之後很多服務的公司取得這個資料之後會賣給第三方的廣告公司所以目前我在檯面上看到的能夠分析的比中華電信更精細的其實都是第三方的廣告公司"},{"start":449.502,"end":478.064,"text":"所以這邊其實反過來講是想要問這個局長這一邊就是說現在廣告公司掌握這些資料其實比我們的三大電信還要來得更多就那種第三方的廣告公司而且它不一定是哪一個國家的它有可能是跨國的企業那這種第三方廣告公司呢我們當然國安單位不可能直接跟他們合作這是一定的但是這些第三方的廣告公司它如果去跟中國合作讓我們的個資大量的被中國掌握這件事情我們應該要怎麼防"},{"start":479.84,"end":493.032,"text":"對於電信公司來講他們對於客戶用戶資料的處理還是要依照我們自己國內的相關的法規來進行那這部分我們當然也會假如相關的情資的話也會跟相關的調查機關或檢查機關來進行舉發"},{"start":496.095,"end":497.196,"text":"對於一些廣告公司有一定的規範"},{"start":526.03,"end":542.007,"text":"但怕就是怕說有些廣告公司在台灣是完全沒有落地的那雖然這次有一些落地的條款但只是辦落地那如果說今天服務甚至是中國提供的因為台灣其實很多人是使用中國的服務所以他的個資會直接被中國拿走我認為這個可能才是我們現在必須面臨的困境"},{"start":542.628,"end":559.043,"text":"那這件事情到底要怎麼做我覺得這個可能是質詢二三十分鐘都講不完的地方所以我先打住在這裡那最後只是想問一下就是說符合今天的題目就是說就是目前來講我們國安資訊的這個定義啦我看到這個在報告上面也有提到就是通訊保安監察法第7條啦"},{"start":559.944,"end":581.393,"text":"所以也就是說譬如說像我們今天這個有一些社會運動啊什麼等等之類的民間企業當然像剛剛講的會做這些人流分析啊輪廓分析等等之類的那以國安局的角度來講呢最主要都是以這個通報法第7條為主那除了這個以外呢就是說譬如說好今天大家都在談這個清療行動以國安局的角度來講是什麼資料是你們有可能會去做的有什麼事情是你們絕對不會去做的"},{"start":582.433,"end":604.012,"text":"主要涉及到還是要依照法律的規範的一些規定來進行我們相關的通訊保障跟監察法授權底下所進行的通訊檢查那就這部分來講涉及到國安的資訊主要涉及到是有境外敵對勢力以及他的協力者可能在境外境內以及跨境的相關的活動資訊而這些活動資訊可能會傷害到國家利益跟安全"},{"start":604.412,"end":628.55,"text":"那有涉及到這一部分的問題的話,我們才會來進行非常嚴格的個案的審核。審核完之後再送請到高等法院來進行採核。可以的話才會由本人,也就是國安局局長來發放相關的通訊檢查書給司法警察機關。所以大概的作業流程還相當的嚴謹。那看起來這個應該不是跟一個境外敵對勢力有關的一個案件。對,是,並不是。好,謝謝局長,那謝謝主席。好,謝謝。"},{"start":633.048,"end":635.602,"text":"待會兒洪聖翰委員質詢完畢以後"}]}},{"id":"153826","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153826","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819f1dcbe9657ae08980fec08313b105ec0a04e565a7cce14efbf58e434f61d1a005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:25:05 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10:37:26","影片長度":"00:12:21","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:25:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:37:26+08:00","duration":741,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時25分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，首先邀請郭部長。郭部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛在主委跟您的報告當中，我們聽到了幾點重點。主委說，沒有臺灣很難看到世界，因為我們臺灣占有關鍵的位置，這個非常nice，但是他也提到世界人才荒的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我也很歡喜，在你的報告當中，你首先提出人才培育的問題。在討論人才培育的問題之前，我們上次有說過，電力等於國力，你也認同這樣的論點，所以本席要告訴你，在你還沒有擔任經濟部長的時候，我們在立法院裡頭通過了，也就是當3月份電價審議委員會決定4月1號開始漲價的時候，我們立即提出凍漲案。也就是人民在這段時間非常的辛苦，所以9月份，因為一年要開兩次審議會，9月份電價不能再漲，要凍漲。今天我很高興地看到經濟日報報導「卓揆暗示9月不漲電價」，請教部長，卓揆聽到了民眾的聲音，您聽到了嗎？是不是9月我們會朝這個方向來進行？請做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我經濟部就是尊重院的指示。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院的指示？所以卓揆暗示9月不漲電價，就是凍漲，就是這個方向嘛，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我還沒有得到院長直接的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有看到經濟日報嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有看。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有看？我現在秀給你看。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你好好看，你看報導有這麼大一篇，那是不是會朝這個方向呢？立法院大會也已經通過了，也建議給行政部門。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們回去以後會請示院長，他是不是朝這樣的方向，如果是這個方向，我們就按照這個方向來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們也希望能夠得到好的方向，就是9月凍漲，不漲電價，大家一起來照顧我們的民生，照顧我們的產業。你頻頻點頭，我們就繼續來討論。大家都清楚，你宣示2028年要培育20萬名AI的應用工程師，來協助我們整個中小產業導入AI智慧製造。依照你的規劃，你必須要結盟產業公協會、國際大廠、學校、職業訓練等機構，協力建構產業AI課程，輔導企業導入AI應用。今天教育部次長也在現場。也就是怎麼樣橫向部會合作以提升製造業AI應用普及率至少50%，這是您所提出的。所以本席要請教，這是一個非常對的方向，但是這是一個大工程，我們希望不是只有口號，而是能夠真正落實，所以，請教部長，4年培育20萬名AI的人才，你預估有多少是我們的國人？"],["郭部長智輝：大部分都是我們的國人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大部分都是我們的國人？"],["郭部長智輝：我想剛才劉主委講的部分是跟教育部在談的，就是最高階的、在做模型的工程師，這部分會從外部引進我想大概兩、三千人，但是我要訓練的是實作的，在現場操作的工程師跟微調設計的工程師，所以這一部分，我想大部分都是我們國人，也就是20萬裡面我想應該有18萬都是國人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。20萬名你要訓練的有18萬名是我們自己中華民國的國人，我們一起努力。本席給你一個功課，因為國發會也在場，教育部也在場，應該要針對我國這些AI人才做一個橫向前瞻性的完整計畫，我也希望你們橫向組織聯繫好，也給本席一份書面資料。","接下來我們還是來講電的問題，微軟的創辦人比爾蓋茲主導的，他在美國興建的第四代核電廠開工，他表示這是美國朝著安全、豐富以及零碳能源的重要一大步。零碳能源，這個非常重要，所以這一項工作成功之後，對於美國未來國家的整體競爭力非常的重要。那麼要請教郭部長，您認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：國外正在發展的新的技術，我們都有在觀察，也都在留意。因為他現在還在做一些實驗，還不是完全做商業運轉，所以我們還沒有辦法看到他基本所訴求的安全、沒有核廢料……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。如果朝著比爾蓋茲所說的這個方向？對。"],["郭部長智輝：如果是這樣的話，我們當然會來討論……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會來參考？"],["郭部長智輝：會來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：豐富、安全還有零碳的這個能源？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是大家都希望的，所以我們也希望能夠跟世界來接軌。","主席，我也要請國發會主委。","主委，比爾蓋茲針對第四代核電廠開工所提出的論點，剛剛郭部長說，如果是這個方向，你們會來參考，那您的立場呢？你的看法呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：報告委員，我大概有一點瞭解，它現在是用鈉取代過去的水，它的輻射量會低一些，但是因為鈉碰到空氣會燃燒，所以它的安全性還有待觀察。它現在是先動土，還沒有辦法到進一步的核准執照，所以，我們還要持續觀察它的結果才能定論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這個回答非常好，我們各個部門都必須要能夠跟世界接軌，因為全球都在搶人才，全球也都對於整個電力給予高度的關注，我們必須要好好的去了解。因為電力等於國力，沒有電力，什麼都不用講了，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在這樣的情況之下，我要繼續請問郭部長。部長，台電公司的財務問題也是我一直關心的，上一次本席請教的時候，您說了一句話，你說你不支持以公務預算來支應，但是目前的情況會讓我們嚇一跳。在這種情況下，本席要請教，目前我們自產的一度電2.3塊，你買的電不夠，你要買的是5.09塊，你買了風力發電的綠能，一度電多少？一度電多少？open book已經在上面，你自己看，我已經給你open book了。風力綠電多少？你買了多少？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在風力發電，報告委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：6.8塊。所以在這樣的情況之下，台電的財務如果不解決，它一直虧損，你沒有辦法穩定供電，這要怎麼辦？所以您跟我有約定兩件事情：第一個，在這個會期結束前，你會公布包括AI加入的電力需求量；第二個，台電財務的問題要怎麼處理。你都還是會在這個會期結束前，告訴我們國人嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們就拭目以待，請你好好來做。部長請回。最後，我要請教國發會，主委，國科會的吳主委說了，他說臺灣廠商如果不走出去，就是面臨嚴重的五缺，缺工、缺地、缺資源等等，這是吳主委說的，但是剛剛郭部長說他要培育20萬人，他也認為我們的電沒問題，當然不包括AI的部分，AI的部分還要再統計。所以本席要請教國發會主委，臺灣廠商如果不走出去，是不是真的會面臨到缺工、缺地、缺資源的問題？請教。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。我輔導過很多廠商走出去，廠商出走的主要目的是前進國際市場，然後加入整個國際供應鏈的需求。這是整個國際的趨勢，也是臺灣要進入一個日不落帝國的一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請回答本席的提問，如果我們的廠商不出走，我們國內會面臨缺工、缺地、缺資源嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前來看，我認為臺灣比較辛苦的會是土地面積的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以會缺嘛，所以你也認同國科會吳主委的說法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：只有土地，因為我們現在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認同他的一部分說法，好，接下來我要告訴你，他講的是真的，你們不要粉飾太平，要面對問題去解決問題，因為在我們的國科會半導體晶片研發的績效來說，申請的人數，請看本席的資料，給你open book，它是往下降的，案件也在減少。AI的A世代半導體前瞻半導體及量子技術研發計畫裡頭，110年申請的是376人，111年是201人，112年是138人，今年剩下25人，所以你們的橫向必須要去看，它那一邊已經短絀那麼多了，而且我們看到新興晶片設計研發計畫、次世代化合物半導體研發計畫，申請的人數一直在遞減，今年剩下多少？30人。主委，本席給你這個數字，在國科會的數量是如此，心驚驚啦！真的會怕，你不缺人嗎？本席有疑慮、有疑慮，所以我希望的是，我們要如何去協助推動產業，部會的橫向聯繫非常重要，好不好？因為我們要去面對這個問題，一個國科會主委已經告訴你，如果不出走會怎麼樣了，到時候臺灣怎麼辦、臺灣怎麼辦？所以本席非常希望，因為這是一個大功課，也是一個人類改變的關鍵時刻，就誠如你所說的，沒有臺灣看不到全世界，我們很高興的是，我們的人才都在臺灣產生，在全世界發揚光大，我們更要實際去面對問題，而橫向的部分，政府有這個職責，必須要協助產業，這是本席給你的功課，請你去把它整理好、去把它整理好，我們缺的要怎麼樣去應對？這是我們必要做的，好不好？你把它整理好，提供書面資料給本席，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我會跟國科會討論一下。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉主委，請回座。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：謝謝，接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.36221875,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.10784375,"end":24.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.73471875,"end":33.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.713468750000004,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.94971875,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.23159375,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.69096875,"end":45.930968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.43721875,"end":67.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.63221875,"end":71.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.22221875000001,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.38971875,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.83471875000001,"end":96.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.41659375,"end":110.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.88284375,"end":112.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.93346875,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.35096875,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.73034375,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.02971875,"end":119.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.14721875000001,"end":121.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.00346875000001,"end":122.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.79659375000001,"end":127.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.51721875,"end":131.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.25096875,"end":132.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.25909375,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.18284375000002,"end":136.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.05596875,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.74784375000002,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.70971875,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.43534375000002,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.97096875,"end":142.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.80596875,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.16409375,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.54346875000002,"end":158.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":150.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.99784375000002,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.18346875,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.73409375,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.64284375000003,"end":189.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.95909375000002,"end":190.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.95471875,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.12596875000003,"end":229.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.93596875,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.04909375,"end":262.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.58909375,"end":265.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.30159375,"end":277.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.04659375,"end":293.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.79096875,"end":297.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.33471875000004,"end":301.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.44784375,"end":305.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.09284375000004,"end":307.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.66221875,"end":308.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.01221875000005,"end":309.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.90659375,"end":323.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.23346875000004,"end":325.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.90409375,"end":328.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.41409375,"end":349.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.00221875,"end":348.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.08596875,"end":353.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.59596875,"end":354.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.50721875000005,"end":355.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.96284375000005,"end":355.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.41846875000005,"end":355.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.71784375000004,"end":357.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.76409375000003,"end":358.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.59096875,"end":359.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.55284375,"end":360.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.31221875,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.59909375,"end":370.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.72534375000004,"end":363.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.86409375000005,"end":365.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.09534375000004,"end":374.3859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楊瓊妍發言首先邀請郭部長"},{"start":32.919,"end":54.216,"text":"國務部長好在主委跟您的報告當中我們聽到了幾點重點這個主委說他說沒有台灣很難看到世界因為我們台灣佔有關鍵的位置這個非常nice但是他也提到世界人才荒的這個問題"},{"start":55.457,"end":79.904,"text":"所以我也歡喜在你的報告當中你首先會提出人才培育的問題在人才培育的問題之前我們上次有說過這個電力等於國力你也認同這樣子的一個論點所以本期呢要告訴你在你還沒有擔任經濟部長的時候那我們在立法院大院裡頭通過了"},{"start":80.504,"end":106.317,"text":"也就是當3月份電價委員會審議的時候4月1號開始漲價漲價之餘呢我們立即提出也就是人民在這個時間非常的辛苦所以9月份因為一年要開兩次會9月份不能再漲要動漲今天我很高興的看到經濟報呢寫了卓魁暗示9月不漲電價請教部長卓魁聽到了民眾的聲音您聽到了嗎"},{"start":111.113,"end":139.887,"text":"是不是9月我們會朝這個方向來進行請做說明報告委員我經濟部就是尊重這個院的這個指示啦院的指示所以昨回暗示9月部長店家就是動長就這個方向嘛是嗎我還沒有得到這個院長的這個直接的你看到經濟報吧我沒有看你沒有看啊我現在秀給你看謝謝你趕快看你看這麼大一片"},{"start":141.018,"end":148.218,"text":"那是不是會朝這個方向呢立法院大會也已經通過了也建議給行政部門"},{"start":149.608,"end":168.124,"text":"報告委員 這個我們回去以後會請示院長那它是不是這樣的一個方向如果是這個方向我們就按照這個方向來做好 我們也希望能夠得到好的方向就是九月動漲 不漲電價大家一起來照顧我們的民生照顧我們的產業好 你拼命地點頭我們就繼續來討論這一個"},{"start":171.807,"end":186.194,"text":"大家要清楚你提出宣示2028年要培育20萬名AI的應用工程師來協助我們整個中小產業導入AI智慧跟製造那依照你的規劃你必須要結盟產業工協會"},{"start":188.675,"end":194.798,"text":"國際大廠、學校、職業訓練等機構來協助產業AI的課程﹐輔導企業導入AI的應用所以今天教育部也在現場市長也在現場也就是怎麼樣橫向的部會提升製造AI應用普及這個50%至少50%這是您所提出的所以本期要請教這是一個非常對的方向但是是一個大工程"},{"start":217.768,"end":245.468,"text":"我們希望不是只有口號而是真正能夠落實所以請教部長四年培育的20萬名AI的人才你預估有多少是我們的國人是我們的國人大部分都是我們國人大部分都是我們國人我想這個劉主委他在講的部分是跟那個教育部在談的就是這個最高階的在做這個模型的這個工程師這個部分大概從外部進來大概我想大概兩三千人"},{"start":246.329,"end":258.223,"text":"但是我要訓練的是實作的在現場操作的工程師跟微調設計的工程師所以這一部分我想大部分都是我們國人也就是20萬裡面我想應該有18萬都是國人"},{"start":262.668,"end":274.016,"text":"好 20萬名你要訓練的有18萬名是我國我們自己中華民國的國人我們一起努力所以本席給你一個功課因為國防部也在這邊教育部也在這邊應該要將我國的這一些"},{"start":278.198,"end":289.441,"text":"AI的人才必須要做一個橫向前瞻性的一個完整的計劃我也希望你們橫向組織聯繫也一份書面資料給本席那接下來我們還是來講電的問題微軟的創辦人比爾蓋茲他主導的他在美國建了這個第四代的核電廠開工他也表示這是美國潮者"},{"start":307.705,"end":324.662,"text":"安全、豐富以及零碳能源所以這一項工作成功之後對於美國未來的國家整個的競爭力是非常的重要請教郭部長您認同這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":330.972,"end":348.099,"text":"這個國外的新的技術我們都有在觀察有在留意因為它現在還是在做一些實驗還不是完全做商業運轉所以我們還沒有辦法看到它的基本所需求的安全、核廢料如果是這個樣子的話我們當然會再討論會來參考、會來討論"},{"start":356.752,"end":385.601,"text":"安全還有零碳的這個能源這個是大家都希望的嘛所以我們也希望能夠跟世界來接軌主席我也請我們國防委主委主委對於比爾蓋茲所提出的這樣子的第四代核電廠的一個開工他的論點剛剛郭部長說如果是這個方向你們會來參考那您的立場呢?你的看法呢?"},{"start":387.719,"end":408.054,"text":"報委員我大概有一點瞭解他現在是用鈉然後取代過去的水他的輻射量會低一些但是因為鈉碰到空氣會燃燒所以他的安全性還有待觀察那他現在是先凍土還沒有辦法到進一步的核准執照所以我們還要持續觀察他的結果才能定論"},{"start":408.234,"end":425.115,"text":"好 這個回答非常好也就是我們各個部門都必須要能夠跟世界來接軌因為全球都在搶人才全球也都對於整個電力給予高度的關注我們必須要好好的去了解因為國力"},{"start":426.932,"end":441.283,"text":"電力等於國力沒有電力什麼都不用講了對不對好 所以在這樣的一個情況之下我繼續要來請問那個郭部長部長 台電公司的財務問題也是一直我關心的"},{"start":441.983,"end":465.921,"text":"您在上一次本席請教的時候您說了一句話你說你不支持以公務預算來指引但是目前情況會讓我們嚇一跳所以在這種情況之下呢本席要來請教目前我們自產的一度電2.3塊你買的電不夠你要買的是5.09塊你買了綠能風力發電的一度電多少一度電多少"},{"start":468.973,"end":473.356,"text":"Open Book已經在上面你自己看我已經給你Open Book了鋒利綠電多少?你買了多少?6.8塊所以在這樣情況之下台電的財務如果不解決它一直虧損你沒有辦法穩定供電"},{"start":493.86,"end":518.99,"text":"這怎麼辦所以您跟我有約定兩件事情第一個在這個會期結束前你會公布包括AI所加入的電力的需求量第二個台電財務的問題要怎麼處理你都還是會在這個會期結束前會告訴我們國人嗎是的是的所以我們就拭目以待好好來做那最後我請國發會"},{"start":533.707,"end":546.611,"text":"國科會的主委吳主委他說了他說台灣廠商如果不走出去就是面臨嚴重的五缺缺工缺地缺資源等等這是吳主委所說的"},{"start":547.674,"end":570.468,"text":"但是在剛剛郭部長所說的他要培育20萬人他也認為我們的電沒問題當然不包括AI的部分還要再統計所以本期要請教國科會主委台灣廠商如果真的不走出去是不是真的會面臨到缺工、缺地、缺資源的問題請教"},{"start":574.194,"end":597.191,"text":"謝謝委員我輔導過很多廠商走出去他主要的目的主要是前進國際市場然後加入整個國際供應鏈的需求那這整個國際的趨勢那也是台灣要進入一個日不落帝國的一個請回答本席的提問如果我們的廠商不出走我們會面臨在國內的缺工缺地缺資源嗎"},{"start":599.059,"end":618.174,"text":"目前來看我認為台灣比較辛苦的會是土地面積的問題社會缺嗎?所以你也認同國會會吳主委的說法只有土地因為我們現在你認同他的一部分好一部分接下來我要告訴你他講的是真的你們不要粉飾太平要面對問題去解決問題"},{"start":620.316,"end":627.018,"text":"因為在我們的國科會半導體晶片研發的績效來說他申請的人數你看本席的資料OpenBook給你他是往下降的案件也在減少AI的這個A世代的半導體前瞻半導體及量子"},{"start":639.522,"end":644.045,"text":"這個技術研究的計畫裡頭110年申請的是376人111年是201人112年是138人今年剩下25人所以你們的橫向必須要去看"},{"start":655.231,"end":668.326,"text":"他那一邊已經短出那麼多了而且我們看到新興晶片設計研發的計畫跟次世代核物半導體的研發計畫 申請的人數一直在低減今年剩下多少 30人"},{"start":670.598,"end":696.509,"text":"主委本席給你這個數字在國科會的數量是如此心驚驚啊真的會怕你不缺人嗎本席有疑慮有疑慮所以我希望的我們要如何的去協助推動產業橫向的聯繫不會非常的重要好不好因為我們要去面對這個問題一個國會委員會主委已經告訴你如果不出走會怎麼樣了那到時候台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":699.17,"end":707.456,"text":"台灣怎麼辦?所以本席非常的希望因為這是一個大功課也是一個人類改變的關鍵時刻就誠如你所說的沒有台灣看不到全世界我們很高興的我們的人才都在台灣產生在全世界發揚光大我們更要實際去面對問題橫向政府有這個職責必須要協助產業這是本席給你的功課請你去把它整理好"},{"start":726.826,"end":735.17,"text":"去把它整理好我們該缺的要怎麼樣去應對這是我們必要做的好不好你把它整理好順便資料給本席好嗎我會跟國科會討論一下謝謝好 謝謝劉書偉請回"}]}},{"id":"153825","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153825","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81961a3c7ba7edb41c325a148732a468ab6a04e565a7cce14ef4cd5d9dcafc62b725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:22:49 - 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","start":709.55721875,"end":720.5090937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.209,"end":28.371,"text":"委員好謝謝主席有請部長我們請部長部長你要喝水一下嗎可以先喝水吧謝謝那個趙偉那個時間可不可以先不要算不好意思因為他剛剛在咳嗽我想說讓他先喝個水"},{"start":33.528,"end":35.439,"text":"謝謝委員好 那我們開始囉"},{"start":37.381,"end":61.597,"text":"好 那我想講今天校園霸凌以及毒品10分鐘不夠講半個小時也不夠但是很多要跟你探討近年來校園霸凌層出不窮霸凌的多樣性已經越來越讓我們感受到這個應該要予以重視也重視很多年但是都還沒辦法處理但是教育部啟動了一個修法強化防制校園霸凌的一個作為同時強化太除不適任的教師這個機制歷經一年多"},{"start":64.079,"end":80.398,"text":"二部新修正法規總算在113年4月19日執行本席先肯定但是有很多要建議我想首先要先對於這個高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或支遣辦法第16條第一項"},{"start":81.96,"end":98.13,"text":"校式會議組成調查小組．各該主管機關調查人才．推舉三倍至五倍的學者專家．供學校領選三人五人作為委員．並應全部外聘．偏遠地區學校外聘的調查有困難者．學校主管機關應該給予協助．"},{"start":102.113,"end":115.972,"text":"這部分我要跟部長來說說看這個校室調查人員的培訓是由各主管機關推派3名參加招募人員每次培訓預計100名由國教署篩選後公告名單並且培訓事宜"},{"start":117.213,"end":145.51,"text":"就針對校園霸凌事件的專業人才的一個培訓現市政府介派僅限以參與國教署事件處理會議調查輔導人才庫的研習製成員各主管機關每梯次介派10人但不覺得專業人力推薦我們現在非常不充足嗎?調查小組應該具備專業性及公正性現在我們按照所有的培訓以及介派標準人才庫看起來絕對"},{"start":147.311,"end":149.272,"text":"部長,我剛剛講出了一個問題您有聽到問題點嗎?有那您覺得呢?"},{"start":172.693,"end":195.801,"text":"我們現在跟委員報告我們確實現在也因應這樣的一個校式人才的校外的委員我們積極國教署在培訓這一對但是我剛剛有點出問題嘛我希望你應該偵辦相關的培訓那個場次以及借聘人員的增額嘛對不對我想我直接就跟你講啊跟我陳情的是誰台中市政府"},{"start":197.23,"end":225.245,"text":"台中市政府就看到問題點了所以要我一定要來跟你說希望你趕緊把這個事情給處理第二個今天的重點我們來看一下本席比較一下深深霸凌所謂的案修法前後法定其成以及失退生、校園霸凌、不當管教以及體罰修法前後的一個法定其成我們來細看一下這個表格修法前跟修法後我們來看看修法前"},{"start":225.905,"end":241.248,"text":"我們先看一個生對生校園霸凌防治處理的一個時程差異表修法前一樣通報24小時召開防治委員會修法前是三個工作日現在召開防治委員會你們修法後變成打叉叉"},{"start":241.949,"end":260.338,"text":"我不知道是不用成立防制委員會嗎應該不會啦齁但是你打叉叉是不需要工作日那當然好像有提升效率了但是受理通知我就想跟你請問一下我們修法前是20日內看起來是不就是含了6日"},{"start":261.198,"end":286.994,"text":"但是你修法後變成20個工作日所以就是不含所謂的假日那時程是不是就拉開了而且這個叫做受理通知20日跟20個工作日差距就很大囉那這樣子的一個修法你覺得是適宜嗎我們把時間拉長了欸受理通知為什麼要拉長部長您不覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":288.663,"end":315.33,"text":"您覺得這樣對嗎我想他確實是時間拉長也許因為這個校室委員的一個處理都是但是我要跟您特別報告這個也是台中市政府跟我說的他覺得很不當為什麼受理通知要20個工作日我們要接觸這個受害者我們要的就是搶時間所以我覺得20日內改成20個工作日對不起我不能夠接受"},{"start":316.07,"end":340.445,"text":"好那現在組成處理小組為什麼又多加5個工作日我們在前面有一個召開防制委員會變成打叉叉不用時間現在呢看起來原本的是我們看第二個召開防制委員會是原本修法前是3個工作日現在呢你變叉叉可是你現在又拉成組成處理小組要5個工作日又多加了一個5個工作日這樣子的處理小組來籌組我不解"},{"start":342.706,"end":368.96,"text":"為什麼我們修完以後反而要多五天來處理組成小組的一個組成好我們再來看看調查所謂的調查時間兩個月必要時延長兩次每次一個月這看起來好像都沒有改變所以到目前為止我看到的深深霸凌修法前的法定期程我認為有問題的就是在這個20個工作日以及組成處理小組五個工作日"},{"start":369.813,"end":395.459,"text":"所以這個部分您會後可不可以給我一個時間內來做檢討是不是可以給我回應?跟委員報告這一個時程的調整是經過研修小組一二十次的會議討論形成的共識我想這個是學校端反映他們在作業上確實有這樣的需求但是學校端如果我們在準則的部分其實也有賦予縣市政府可以在不抵觸法規的基礎下可以訂更詳細的規範"},{"start":396.499,"end":397.119,"text":"從委員剛才所提的我完全認同"},{"start":418.906,"end":439.041,"text":"因為當有人被霸凌的時候我們怎麼快速的接觸這個學生讓他能夠免於這個恐懼或是傷害時間說的越短我想那是越對但是我今天不是要你20個工作日變10日而是為什麼工作日跟20日內他這樣子的一個差別他橫跨了如果兩個假日的話怎麼辦"},{"start":440.201,"end":440.642,"text":"現在統一改成七個工作日"},{"start":457.992,"end":482.468,"text":"7個工作日5日3日被你變成7個工作日那這個部分我就看出差異了我覺得有必要嗎好再來我們再看調查調查不當管教是30天必要時延長30天然後霸凌是兩個月221啦可是我們現在看到統一調查都改成221那你不當管教原本是3030現在變成221"},{"start":485.751,"end":486.712,"text":"你要不要說明一下?"},{"start":504.614,"end":522.866,"text":"我先跟委員報告一下研商的過程的考慮,那待會部長跟您做個總政說明首先在校事會議這一段,七天、三天、五天這一個,以往是霸凌、不讓管教全部分開,以至於學校要啟動好幾個小組,所以那個加起來可能加起來會變成八天"},{"start":523.726,"end":523.906,"text":"委員長鄭英耀"},{"start":540.839,"end":568.32,"text":"都被家長申請兩次所以加起來有時候會變成三個月以上所以我們是折衷而且是朝比較有力比較嚴謹的方式做處理所以以上特別跟委員報告以前在處理這兩段的時候被組兩個小組以及兩次的啟動讓家長等太久讓學校啟動太多小組所以整併之後才一個學校能接受地方政府也好運作的方式跟委員報告細節再跟您做一個比較詳細的補充"},{"start":569.901,"end":586.636,"text":"但就現在來看你把兩個分開來講說把它做一個整合我可以接受這樣的說法但是內容上我覺得還可以再研議一下我想這不是這一次的修法絕對不是最終我們是不是跟縣市政府在做一個溝通考量我想本期我覺得這個修法對我來說我"},{"start":588.217,"end":603.169,"text":"作為一個家長我擔心的就是時間上我很粗淺的就直接看到時間拉長了那是不是有機會整合以後再縮短這個是部分我們應該去考量到了而且我還是要再次強調跟我曾情的是市政府教育局"},{"start":603.829,"end":624.825,"text":"那教育局也是第一線工作他們去了解去做一個普查去了解到有這樣子的問題他們覺得是可以再做一個縮減今天連教育局他都沒有說支持第一線在這樣子的一個部分他們都覺得執行上可能會拉長所以我覺得我們應該要考量到所以我想本席覺得"},{"start":626.102,"end":654.947,"text":"這個部分教育部能夠苦民所苦修法要能夠接住受害者部長這部分我們是不是再來做一個擇期我想這裡邊當然因為有非常多次的一個公聽會跟老師的座談就考慮到行政單位學校運作老師的呼和跟但是不要忘掉所有的考慮我們要處理的是學生受霸凌的這一個議題那我們怎麼樣來讓他更有效率的去整合我想這我們會來努力"},{"start":655.447,"end":683.997,"text":"其實我自己是蠻常接到校園霸凌事件不管是誤會也好不管是生對生或者是失對生我們通常遇到的家長都是非常急家長都覺得沒有作為每一個家長都可能會因為急躁這我們能夠體諒但普遍我們遇到的案件還是多數覺得時間拉太長希望能夠速戰速決因為對孩子來說每一天都是苦戰希望能夠趕緊回到正常的就是校園生活"},{"start":684.637,"end":703.991,"text":"所以我們希望是整合聽到了你們的說法沒關係但整合能不能縮減時數是我們要努力的這部分我希望教育部是不是一個月內來做一個台中市政府的溝通那是不是來做一個相關的檢討我們會後再來做一個討論可以嗎謝謝一個月可以嗎可以好謝謝部長"},{"start":709.585,"end":718.804,"text":"好謝謝部長謝謝羅委員我在這邊宣布我們在等吳佩奕委員質詢完畢之後我們就會休息五分鐘謝謝接下來我們請陳秀寶委員"}]}},{"id":"153824","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153824","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81976dd38d06cf64d7d98b2dfa55713766ca04e565a7cce14ef1e0ef36d357a05ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:23:39 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10:34:19","影片長度":"00:10:40","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:23:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:34:19+08:00","duration":640,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時23分）謝謝主席，請吳秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長早。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：今天我們要併案審查刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案，其中三黨黨團或委員都有個別提出對於科技偵查訂定專章的草案。誠如我們上週審查科技偵查與保障法時所討論到的，究竟是要訂定一個專法，還是要修訂專章來規範科技偵查的內容，這也是接下來朝野協商對於所要採取的法律去進行抉擇，同時也有看到其他委員提出質疑，認為司法院應該要拿出更積極的作為，若相同內容能夠訂在刑事訴訟法當中，則應該不需再另訂專法。也因為司法院這邊是代表法院和法官的意見，攸關未來實務上的運作，在此我想請教秘書長，司法院目前的立場是偏向另訂專法，還是有其他相關考量的理由，是不是可以請秘書長來簡單說明一下？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，司法院認為以專法來規定比較適合，因為行政院版的草案也已經經過多方的討論，有排除部分比較爭議性的偵查手段，所以是建議用專法來討論作為基礎，因為科技偵查手段可能持續在增加，所以放在專法就類似通保法一樣，便於統一規範，能夠迅速回應偵查機關偵查犯罪還有蒐集證據的需要。假如要放在刑事訴訟法，可能還要再整體盤點刑事訴訟法本身……"],["陳委員俊宇：好，沒關係，秘書長，你們就是傾向於制定專法，這我們也尊重。我想司法院跟法務部在修法的過程裡面，應該也經過充分的溝通跟討論，但是在科技偵查的實務上，還是要由檢調在調查案件的時候來發動這個情況，現在不論是GPS還是M化車，雖然都是相當基本的科技偵查手段，但事實上，若監控的時間足夠長，還是對個人隱私有相當程度的侵害。尤其在條文當中，檢察官認為有必要時就能夠發動偵查，我想請問秘書長，草案對於法官保留和審查的機制是否都已經非常周全了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為現在科偵法草案所規定的三種類型，不管是在人的定位追蹤、M化車、行動通訊設備的追蹤定位，以及具有隱私空間內人物的監錄，這些都有採取法官保留事先來審查，縱使在緊急調查的這種狀況，也是由法官事後來加以審查，可以說是依照強制處分，對於基本權的干預侵害程度有做層級化的授權。另外，在審查機制方面，申請書面應該要記載的內容，這些包括所使用的科技方法，還有使用該科技方法調查得取的標的，這些在申請書裡面都要詳細記載。所以就整體來講，這個專法的草案所採的法官保留範圍及審查機制，就人民的隱私權……"],["陳委員俊宇：已經非常周全了嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：應該算足夠了。當然還要再做某部分的加強，但初步是認為已經足夠了。"],["陳委員俊宇：初步就已經認定足夠了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：對，已經足夠了。"],["陳委員俊宇：那就是該加強的部分再加強，先前法務部也曾提及，在未來修法通過之後，能夠有一個比較完善的內控機制，讓偵辦的過程能夠順利來辦理，也可以降低對於人民隱私的侵害，以及防範遭到濫用的可能性。對此我想再請教秘書長，司法院對於相關單位有沒有其他要求或是規範，來降低科技偵查對於人權侵犯或是不當濫用的可能？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個專法草案就各類型已經有採取法官保留，並且在核發許可書的時候，對執行人員方面也為必要的指示，此外，在草案中也規範有事後通知的程序，包括事後救濟制度也都有規範，還有資料保管銷毀機制，可說是可以來降低這類……"],["陳委員俊宇：會不會被濫用？秘書長，會不會被濫用？"],["吳秘書長三龍：草案應該也都有考慮到這些，應該都有相當的一種……看怎麼來防範。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想在我們打擊詐騙或是打擊犯罪的工作上，還是需要各部會通力合作，我相信司法院和各級法院也都責無旁貸要扮演懲罰犯罪最重要的角色，不論最後協商的結果是要訂定專法，還是修訂專章，我想當務之急還是要儘快在各版本的條文內容上取得一個共識，並且讓修法儘速完成，給予偵查單位有效打擊犯罪的一個武器，這才是重點啦！","接下來我想再請教秘書長，另外一個審查的重點是對於偵查中限制辯護權行使的修正，依照憲法法庭111年憲判字第7號判決確立偵查中辯護人的筆記權，並且要能夠強化實質有效的辯護功能，完善保障人民的訴訟權。我們也看到司法院、行政院還有委員們，對此都有提出修正的版本，我想就一個可能發生的狀況來請教秘書長，今天假設律師在偵訊作筆記，但檢察官還是不允許，也就是說，他當下沒有得到筆記的權利，在救濟之後，應該要如何來處理？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一次司法院和行政院後來有共識，就是提出來的乙案裡面有增訂第二百四十一條之一，關於禁止或限制處分的救濟，這些有增訂在第二百四十五條之一，有做一個如何救濟的方式。"],["陳委員俊宇：上面有記載嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：有，有如何來救濟，這一次……"],["陳委員俊宇：針對這部分，是不是會後請你們的同仁再給我一份資料？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外我想就教秘書長，我有看到沈伯洋委員提案，希望在保障辯護人筆記權的同時，也能夠考慮到因為科技日新月異，得以用其他電子設備來輔助記錄，我想這應該也是符合現代工作習慣所提出的修正方案，因為現在的工作，在實務上作筆記應該也不僅限制於紙筆，在電子設備上，若有妥善的規範，是否也可以歸納為未來輔助筆記的工具？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們在書面說明也有提到，其實司法院是尊重的啦！"],["陳委員俊宇：尊重？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們尊重委員提出來這樣一種方向。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我可不可以請問黃次長，針對這個部分，法務部的看法呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個憲判字確立的是辯護人的筆記權，所以我們要確保辯護人在偵查中可以筆記。利用科技設備去筆記，在個案上由檢察官去判斷是否符合筆記的概念。我們要強調的是，如果這個科技設備本身有錄音、錄影、傳送功能的話，我們是禁止的，因為會影響偵查不公開原則的處理。所以個案上符不符合筆記的要件，由個案的檢察官自己去做判斷。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。如果在我們規範清楚的狀況之下，法務部與司法院應該都同意用電子筆記來做備載的方式，這個工具可以認同吧？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我還是強調那句話，個案上因為科技設備本身有沒有夾帶了其他的錄音、錄影功能，檢察官必須個案去判斷，所以這部分我們不能通案性地說電子設備可以或不可以，個案上由檢察官去做判斷。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我剛剛強調的是在規範清楚的狀況之下，就誠如剛剛次長您說的，相關設備如果經過認定是可以的，只是一個簡單的電子筆記功能的話，我們應該是可以認同嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：對，如果個案檢察官這樣子判斷的話，理論上是可以的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝秘書長及次長。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.657218750000002,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.48784375,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.082218750000003,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.78659375,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.75096875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.13471875,"end":94.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.12596875000001,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.45909375000001,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.64409375000001,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.86721875,"end":110.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.33846875,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.85659375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0001}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.657,"end":18.946,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請吳秘書長麻煩秘書長秘書長早"},{"start":24.847,"end":47.62,"text":"委員好今天我們要併案審查有關這個刑事訴訟法的部分修正條文那其中三黨的黨團或委員各別有提出對於科技偵查訂定的專章的這個草案那也誠如我們在上週審查科技偵查與保障法時所討論到究竟是要訂定一個專法"},{"start":48.741,"end":63.214,"text":"還是要修訂專章來規範科技偵查的內容。這也是接下來草野協商對於所要採取的這個法律去進行抉擇。那也有看到其他委員提出質疑認為我們司法院應該要拿出更積極的這個作為。"},{"start":64.815,"end":88.016,"text":"如果相同內容能夠定在刑事訴訟法當中則應該不須再另訂專法。那也因為司法院這邊是代表法院和法官的意見攸關未來實務上的運作。那在此我想請教秘書長司法院目前的立場是偏向另訂專法還是相關的考量的理由是不是可以請秘書長來做簡單的說明一下。"},{"start":90.936,"end":113.562,"text":"像委員說明那麼司法院是認為以專法來規定比較適合因為行政院版的這個草案也已經經過多方的討論有排除部分比較爭議性的偵查手段所以是建議用專法來討論作為基礎"},{"start":116.909,"end":142.628,"text":"因為這個科技偵查手段可能持續在增加所以放在專法就類似通保法一樣那麼便宜來統一規範能夠來迅速回應偵查機關偵查犯罪還有收集證據的需要那假如說要放在那個刑事訴訟法那可能還要再"},{"start":145.45,"end":170.279,"text":"在整體盤點那個刑事訴訟法本身好沒關係民眾黨你們就是傾向就是制定專法那這我們也尊重那我想我們司法院跟這個法務部在修法的過程裡面應該也經過充分的這個溝通跟討論那但是在這個科技偵查的實務上還是要有檢調在調查案件的這個時候來發動"},{"start":173.88,"end":198.089,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":199.85,"end":204.896,"text":"草案對於法官保留和審查的這個機制是否都已經非常的周全了?"},{"start":206.042,"end":232.21,"text":"因為現在在這個科診法草案所規定的三種類型那不管在這個人的定位追蹤還有M化車的這個行動通信的設備的這個追蹤定位以及藉由這個隱私空間內的人物的監錄那這些都有採取法官保留事件來審查"},{"start":233.03,"end":256.702,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條"},{"start":258.223,"end":283.18,"text":"那這些包括所使用的科技方法還有使用該科技方法調查得取的這些標的那這些在申請書裡面都要詳細記載所以就整體來講這個專法的草案所採的法官保留的範圍還有這個審查機制就人民的飲食錢已經非常周全了嗎?"},{"start":283.8,"end":299.422,"text":"就應該算足夠了啦。應該算足夠。當然還要再做某部分的加強。那是初步是認為已經足夠了啦。已經足夠了。初步就已經認定足夠了。已經有足夠了。"},{"start":300.003,"end":324.7,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":330.844,"end":334.829,"text":"這個科技偵查對於人權侵犯或是不當濫用的可能。」"},{"start":335.678,"end":359.813,"text":"因為在這個草案這個專法草案就各類型已經有採取法官保留那麼並且在這個核發許可書的時候對主刑人員方面也為必要的指示除外這個在草案中也規範有事後通知的這樣的一種程序事後救濟制度這些也都有規範還有這個"},{"start":362.254,"end":368.162,"text":"資料保管消費機制可以說是可以來降低會不會被濫用?那個秘書長會不會被濫用?"},{"start":371.596,"end":393.931,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":395.232,"end":417.072,"text":"懲罰犯罪最重要的角色不論是最後協商的結果是要訂定這個專法還是修訂專章那我想當務之急還是要盡快在各版本的這個條文內容上去取得一個共識那並且讓修法競速來完成給予偵查單位有效打擊犯罪的一個武器才是一個重點"},{"start":417.813,"end":431.631,"text":"三條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":432.605,"end":447.877,"text":"五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四"},{"start":448.658,"end":472.658,"text":"那我們也看到司法院還有行政院還有委員們對此都有提出修正的版本那我想就一個可能發生的這個狀況來請教秘書長那今天假設律師在徵訊做筆記但檢察官還是不允許也就是說他當下沒有得到這個筆記的權利那在救濟之後應該要如何來處理"},{"start":476.05,"end":500.288,"text":"這一次在司法院、行政院後來有共識提出來的議案裡面就這些有增訂241條之一,假如禁止或限制處分的一個救濟這些有增訂在第245條之一有做一個如何救濟的方式"},{"start":502.284,"end":517.792,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":518.252,"end":538.155,"text":"希望能夠保障辯護人筆記權的同時也能夠考慮到因為科技日新月異得以用其他電子設備來輔助記錄我想這應該也是符合現代的這個工作習慣所提出的這個修正方案因為現在的這個工作實務上做筆記也應該不僅限制於紙筆"},{"start":539.276,"end":564.913,"text":"在電子設備上若有妥善的規範是否也可以歸納為我們未來筆記輔助筆記的一個工作的一個工具。這一部分我們在書面說明也有提到我們司法院是尊重的。尊重這樣提出來這樣一種方向。那我可不可以請我們黃次長那針對這個部分我們法務部的這個看法勒?"},{"start":565.213,"end":565.994,"text":"條文修正草案案 刑事訴訟法"},{"start":596.154,"end":619.069,"text":"如果在我們規範清楚的狀況之下,我們法務部跟司法院應該都同意用這個電子筆記來做這個備載的方式,應該這個工具可以認同嗎?各位報告,我還是強調那句話,個案上他因為因為那個科技設備他本身有沒有夾帶了其他的輪流功能,夾關他必須個案去判斷。所以這邊我們不能夠通案性的說電子設備可以或不可以。"},{"start":620.77,"end":639.708,"text":"我剛剛強調的就是在規範清楚的狀況之下就誠如剛剛次長您說的我們相關設備如果經過認定說它這個可以它只是一個簡單的一個電子的這個筆記的功能的話我們應該是可以認同嗎?對,如果個案講到這樣子判斷的話理論上是可以的好,謝謝我們民主黨跟次長"}]}},{"id":"153823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819114a54f1b72b1a8a182e407f268492bca04e565a7cce14ef7a6d1c5068171aab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:16:21 - 10:29:07","影片長度":"00:12:46","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:16:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:29:07+08:00","duration":766,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":356,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時16分）主委要不要喝一口水？那我就繼續請主委，謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主委好、主委辛苦了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會。"],["李委員彥秀：剛上任一個月，主委，因為我今天問題比較多，我就直接進入我的正題，我要先問一下房價高漲的問題喔！您直接看我的圖表很快就可以瞭解了，無論是從四大房價的指數從政大永慶、信義、清華安富，包括內政部的住宅價格指數，從四大家分析的房價指數都可以看到房價又創了歷史的新高。","目前我們央行分析，房價高漲主要有幾個原因，第一個，臺灣出口的數字明顯回升；第二個，股市兩萬多點，經濟到最好的時刻，所以大家口袋裡面錢還不少，造成房價的新高！第三個原因是財政部的新青安政策催出自住的需求。前兩個是經濟好、景氣好大家口袋有錢，房價上升是合理的，第三個就是新青安的政策，而媒體針對新青安房貸提出四個後遺症，我要跟主委分享四項政策內容，主委你應該熟悉嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員彥秀：新青安政策，我如果20歲買房，用新青安政策的話，我到60歲才需要還完。"],["彭主任委員金隆：40年。"],["李委員彥秀：40年嘛，然後房貸利率也比較低，後續相關的一些政策其實都還不錯，所以我就整理新青安政策四大項後遺症，我就不用再贅述。我也關注到，新青安政策第一季從20到35歲房貸族年增率增加了48%，我從去年2023年第四季，因為新青安政策是從去年開始，第四季總共5.4萬件房貸，新青安政策就占了1.8萬件，占了三分之一，而今年的第一季總共有5.8萬件，房貸的年增率增加39%。所以從這些數據上可以看到，在新青安的助攻之下年輕人買房的確非常踴躍，就從我們的數據上可以顯示喔！主委，你同意我剛才講的這四大後遺症是新青安政策造成的嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得金管會所主政的範圍可能也不在這裡，不過我覺得這是很多媒體或是外部在討論的問題，確實大家對高房價有很大的感覺，剛剛講新青安也是政府照顧年輕人的一個作法啦！"],["李委員彥秀：是，我同意，因為很多人是爸爸媽媽幫忙買。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：我同意，但是主委我還是要問，因為明天就是6月13號，央行明天就要開理監事會，我也看到媒體報導預期會有第6波的打房，跨部會無論是央行會用選擇性的信用管制也好，或者是我看到媒體所下的標，會用跨部會來打房，特別內政部也提到如果有第6波升息的話，後面可能就不再做利率的補貼。所以整個我從媒體上看到的，還有跨部會後續的動作，我們現在是又要進行下一波的打房了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關房價政策，不是金管會的主政，金管會在意的是我們現在這些銀行們，他們在放貸這些不動產相關事業的風險有沒有過高，我們是根據銀行法第七十二條之二裡面的規範來進行管理。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我同意你的說法，股市好、經濟好，房價可能自然就高，但是我覺得房價高，合理的房價當然也很重要，但是政府更應該注意的是，我們整個房地產的狀況，到底它的體質是不是屬於一個健康的狀況？","我們現在無論是房價高漲，也讓住宅建築放款達到14兆，我昨天就看到無論是本國的住宅貸款、建築貸款，都在0.06%到0.03%，其實如果按照我們整體的逾放比，只有0.17%，好像也不算太高。我昨天看你們新聞稿也一直提到，我們現在購屋的貸款餘額已經突破10兆的大關，目前無論是建築購屋跟房屋的修繕餘額，占銀行整體的放款達到37.21%。所以我想請問一下主委，昨天銀行局在開記者會提到35%，而我們現在達到37.21%，所以35%是不是一個比較合理的數字？逾放款整體的比例、整體的放款。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對不動產整體放款，這我們請銀行局局長來跟你做比較仔細的回答……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，你簡答就好了。是不是要用35%，37.21%是不是太高？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，37.21%我覺得可能是統計基礎上的差異啦，因為……"],["李委員彥秀：你們是用35%來做基準，是不是？"],["莊局長琇媛：我們目前查到……"],["李委員彥秀：合理的數字是什麼？"],["莊局長琇媛：因為35%是目前的數字，可是我們今天來看最近這一年，112年12月也是去年年底的時候，它的比例高於百分之三十五點多。其實這個我們只是在顯示集中度的問題，我必須要跟委員……"],["李委員彥秀：為什麼是35%做基準點，為什麼不是36%？"],["莊局長琇媛：這個不是基準點。"],["李委員彥秀：為什麼不是33%，為什麼不是30%？"],["莊局長琇媛：這個不是基準點，基本上只是在顯示它的比例是這樣，我剛剛說的超過35%，也是去年12月底的數字。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你們是希望它接近35%？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想局長意思就是說，他看過去一整年大概都維持在35%左右，雖然有略高一點，比如說最高點也不過35.38%，所以都是一直維持在35%左右，他只是描述現況。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主委，所以行政院並沒有對於第6波打房的整體跨部會是一個共識，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在還是做我們金管會做的事情。"],["李委員彥秀：雖然你不是主導，但是你也是其中的角色之一。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們現在還是做我們金管會該做的事情。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主委我不為難你。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：因為我今天時間不多，剩下最後兩分鐘，我還是要問一下虛擬平臺，以及我們現在詐騙的問題。關於詐騙的議題，其實剛剛前面賴委員也有問到，它最大的問題就是無內在的價值、波動很高，還有平臺有它的風險在。無論是剛才我們有提到VASP的業者，我們現在要讓它成立一個平臺，但是包括ACE的交易在110年就有一個個案的詐騙金額高達8億，上週開庭的時候，在押主嫌還非常囂張的比ya動作。主委，我們覺得詐騙的問題要控管平臺，但是它也要成立一個公會，你看他都已經這麼囂張，已經在押，開庭還這麼囂張，未來我們的角色怎麼樣去管控或管理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，確實是我們很大的挑戰，他個人行為，我們不予置評。但是對於未來個人幣商，剛剛不管是我們的報告，還有法務部的報告都特別講，我們就是為了針對這件事情和社會的期待，我們在洗錢防制法裡面也參考國際的趨勢。"],["李委員彥秀：那麼未來平臺成立之後，我們有什麼樣更好的管理方式嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，假設大院通過洗錢防制法的話，我們馬上就可以對這些個人幣商課予刑責，根據我們的預估這樣應該會產生很大的嚇阻作用，會回歸到一些正軌去，就是說，你必須要來做洗防登記，那洗防登記的標準就必須要完成、滿足我們洗錢防制法的要求，這樣我們到處看得到這些所謂的個人幣商，應該就會受到一些控制，以上。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主委，剛才賴惠員委員也提到用人的部分，因為我有看到你們在徵才，有關於虛擬資產監理員，首度祭出6.8萬元以上的月薪。你們也在找人，這些人找到了沒？因為我們要設立專法，這些人6.8萬元算高嗎？找這樣的專業算高嗎？有找到了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝委員！我們很努力、很努力地找，我們第一階段要3個找到2個。"],["李委員彥秀：喔！找到2個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：3個夠不夠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不夠。"],["李委員彥秀：當然不夠，還要再繼續找？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為有分階段的給我們人力，但是今年的3個，我們大概就是努力再找。"],["李委員彥秀：詐騙、虛擬平臺的管理是很重要的業務，所以我們才設打詐專法，我希望在這一塊你有更具體的作法。好，主委，我最後要問新光人壽，雖然你上任不到一個月，但是你對於壽險公司的業務相對是非常熟悉的，相對於剛才賴士葆委員問了其他的問題，不管新壽它是家族的問題，還是金金未來併購的問題、合併的問題，我還是要請教，就是5月16日跟5月24日我們分別收到三商壽跟新壽提交的整體體質改善計畫，現在已經到6月中了，金管會對於這兩家公司的改善計畫評估好不好、能不能接受，還是持續地改善？對它最近送進來的兩份報告滿不滿意？新壽跟三……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我知道，因為現在保險局正在審查中，我們可以請保險局局長跟您回復？"],["李委員彥秀：好，簡答，局長請簡答。"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，他們的報告我們目前審查之後有跟公司約時間再做一些溝通，那溝通完畢……"],["李委員彥秀：滿意嗎？有沒有達到及格，還是不及格？那個方向到底是什麼？"],["施局長瓊華：他們有提出一些具體的增資計畫啦，我們有在評估到底它的可行性還有它的時程，請他們再更具體一點，如果沒問題的話，我們就會核定給它。"],["李委員彥秀：那我這樣聽起來，好像以目前看來是滿意的，再補充一些資料就可以了？"],["施局長瓊華：有一些方向上他們確實有提出來，但是具體時程是不是能夠達到一定的標準？這個部分我們還在溝通。"],["李委員彥秀：你還需要多少時間，我們才會知道結果？"],["施局長瓊華：因為我們已經有跟他們約時間談了啦，所以應該……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，你跟我講什麼時候？什麼時候我還可以再問一次？"],["施局長瓊華：這個月就應該要完成溝通，因為……"],["李委員彥秀：6月底要完成溝通，好，因為這兩天新壽的新聞、新光相關的新聞非常多。主委，我再最後30秒，新光金控已經在做現金增資，包括公司債的部分，這兩天的新聞在市場上會不會受到衝擊？如果受到衝擊，我們金管會的立場跟作法到底是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就以法律面來看，這兩個是獨立的事件，但是我覺得可能有些心理……"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得市場會不會受到衝擊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得心理面會受到事件的影響，不過我們評估過，在法律上兩個是獨立的事情。"],["李委員彥秀：對不起！你剛剛說法律面怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是獨立的事件。"],["李委員彥秀：是圖利的事件？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是兩個獨立的事件"],["李委員彥秀：喔！是兩個獨立的事件？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你覺得短期會受到衝擊但不會有影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個是我們講心理面的部分，我們沒辦法預期，但是我剛才講說，就法律面一個是它的增資計畫，一個是大股東的行為，這兩個是分開的。"],["李委員彥秀：好的，謝謝主委的回應。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢。"],["主席（李委員彥秀代）：現在請郭國文召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ VASP ）淪為詐騙工\n具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.80284375,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.81971875,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.342218750000001,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.472843750000001,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.232218750000001,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.41346875,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.30784375,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.47221875,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.18909375000001,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.48159375,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.81471875000001,"end":116.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.34596875000001,"end":145.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.40909375,"end":162.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.94221875000002,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.82721875000001,"end":188.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.35596875000002,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.81159375000001,"end":189.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.62534375,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.72659375,"end":192.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.44346875000002,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.18159375000002,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.82534375,"end":218.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.68034375000002,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.74721875,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.07971875,"end":228.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.12596875000003,"end":234.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.66096875000002,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.27221875,"end":256.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.20596875,"end":257.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.22284375000004,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.73721875,"end":263.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.53409375,"end":264.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.10346875,"end":322.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.22534375000004,"end":339.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.70784375,"end":342.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.18034375,"end":340.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.62721875,"end":344.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.04471875,"end":344.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.12909375000004,"end":348.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.97221875,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.41096875,"end":350.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.96346875,"end":350.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.99721875,"end":351.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.26721875000004,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.02659375,"end":353.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.47784375000003,"end":353.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.49471875,"end":387.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.91096875,"end":363.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.83971875000003,"end":390.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.33721875000003,"end":390.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.78846875000005,"end":391.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.81784375,"end":401.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.86846875000003,"end":392.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.97221875,"end":405.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.65096875,"end":420.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":420.45471875000004,"end":427.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.53784375000004,"end":430.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.64721875000004,"end":433.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.08596875,"end":436.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.43096875000003,"end":438.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.94971875000005,"end":498.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.07596875,"end":441.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.77159375,"end":498.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.78846875000005,"end":515.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":515.24159375,"end":519.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.03846875,"end":540.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.0772187499999,"end":548.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.02971875,"end":573.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.63784375,"end":578.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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主委好 主委辛苦了剛上任一個月 主委因為我今天問題比較多我就直接進入我的正題主委我要先問一下房價高漲的問題您就直接看我的圖表很快就可以了解無論是從我們四大房價的指數從政大永慶、信義、清華安富包括內政部的住格房價"},{"start":31.172,"end":55.446,"text":"我們都可以看到這個房價從這四大家分析的房價指數都可以看到房價又創了歷史的新高那目前我們央行分析房價高漲主要有幾個原因是臺灣出口的這個數字明顯回升那第二個就是股市兩萬多點經濟到最好的時刻所以大家都"},{"start":56.606,"end":78.7,"text":"口袋裏面錢還不少造成房價的新高第三個原因是財政部的新清安政策催出自住的需求那前兩個是經濟好、景氣好大家口袋有錢房價上升是合理的那第三個就是新清安的政策那媒體有針對於新清安房貸"},{"start":79.58,"end":95.075,"text":"有四個後遺症我要跟主委分享就是說因為它的四項政策內容主委你應該熟悉嘛新清安政策我如果20歲我買房我到我用新清安政策的話我到60歲才需要緩緩"},{"start":96.056,"end":97.276,"text":"那我也關注到"},{"start":117.681,"end":141.973,"text":"新清安政策第一季從20到35歲房貸族的年增率增加了48件我從去年2023年第4季因為新清安政策是從去年開始第4季總共有5.4萬件房貸那在新清安政策裡面就佔了1.8萬件佔了三分之一那今年的第一季總共有5.8萬件那總共"},{"start":145.795,"end":169.155,"text":"總共房貸的年增率增加39%所以從這些數據上可以看到新青安的助攻之下就是說年輕人買房的確非常踴躍就從我們的數據上可以顯示主委你同意我剛才講的這四大後遺症是新青安政策造成的嗎"},{"start":170.976,"end":194.228,"text":"這個我覺得今晚會所主政的範圍可能也不在這裡不過我覺得很多媒體或是在外部的在討論的問題不過確實大家對高房價是有很大的感覺那剛剛講新清安也是政府照顧年輕人的一個做法是我同意對因為很多人是爸爸媽媽幫忙買是的對我同意所以"},{"start":197.216,"end":217.811,"text":"但是主委我還是要問因為明天就是6月13號央行明天就要開理監事會那我也看到媒體報導就是說預期會有第六波的打防那跨部會無論是選擇性央行會用選擇性的信用的管制也好或者是我看到媒體所下的標"},{"start":218.892,"end":237.55,"text":"會用跨部會的來打防特別是內政部也提到說如果有第6波升息的話那後面可能就不再做利率的補貼所以這個整個我從媒體上看到的還有跨部會後續的動作我們現在是又要進行下一波的打防了嗎"},{"start":239.73,"end":255.168,"text":"這個有關這個房價政策不是金管會的主政金管會在意的是我們現在這些銀行們他們在放貸這些不動產相關事業的風險有沒有過高那我們是在根據銀行法72之2條裡面的規範來進行管理"},{"start":257.27,"end":278.161,"text":"主委我同意你的說法就是說股市好經濟好房價可能自然就高當然我覺得合理的房價當然也很重要房價高但是我覺得合理的房價當然也很重要但是政府更應該注意的是我們整個房地產的狀況到底是不是它的體質是不是屬於一個健康的狀況"},{"start":280.302,"end":306.17,"text":"我們現在無論是房價高漲也讓住宅建築放款預比達到14兆我昨天就看到我們無論是本國的住宅貸款建築貸款其實都在0.06%到0.03%其實如果按照我們整體的預放比的話只有0.17%其實好像也不是算太高所以我最近看到你們新聞稿也一直在提到說我們現在"},{"start":308.531,"end":329.583,"text":"購屋的貸款餘額已經突破10兆元的大關我們目前無論是建築、購屋跟房屋的修繕餘額在我們整體銀行的整體的放款達到37.21%所以我想請問一下部長、主委我們整體銀行局在開記者會提到35%"},{"start":334.265,"end":335.586,"text":"三十五%是否比較合理的數字?預放款的整體比例?"},{"start":349.73,"end":377.988,"text":"你解答就好了是不是要用35%它是不是37.21%是不是太高報告委員這個37.21%我覺得可能是統計的基礎上的差異那你們是用35來做基準是不是我們目前查到就是那什麼是一個合理的數字因為35是目前的數字可是我們今天來看的話最近這一年其實是112年12月底也是去年年底的時候"},{"start":378.368,"end":404.842,"text":"他的比率是高於35點多其實這個我們只是在顯示說集中度的問題那我必須要跟為什麼是35做基準點為什麼不是36為什麼不是33為什麼不是30這個不是基準點這個基本上只是在顯示說他的比率是這樣那我剛剛說的超過35也是去年12月底的數字所以你們是希望他接近35"},{"start":406.687,"end":426.852,"text":"我想局長意思就是說他看過去一整年大概都維持在35%左右雖然有略高一點比如最高點不過35.38%最近都是一直都維持在35%他只是描述現況好主委那所以行政院並沒有對於第六波打防整體跨部會是一個共識對不對"},{"start":428.581,"end":436.309,"text":"我們現在就是我們還是雖然你不主導但是你也是其中的角色之一我們現在還是做我們金管會該做的事現在"},{"start":437.675,"end":444.817,"text":"主委我不為難您主委因為我今天時間不多我還是要問一下現在最後兩分鐘我還是要問一下虛擬平台我們現在詐騙的問題詐騙的議題其實剛剛前面賴委員也有問到其實它最大的問題就是無內在的價值波動很高還有平台有它的風險在"},{"start":459.683,"end":478.098,"text":"無論是剛才我們有提到就是說VASP的業者我們現在要讓他成立一個平台但是包括ACE的交易在110年就有一個個案他的詐騙金額高達8億上週開庭的時候在押主席人還非常囂張的比業那個動作"},{"start":480.78,"end":498.58,"text":"就是說主委我們覺得詐騙的問題我們要控管平台但是它也要成立一個工會我們未來你看它都已經這麼囂張已經在押開庭還這麼囂張未來我們的角色怎麼樣去做監管就是說管控或管理"},{"start":499.421,"end":518.884,"text":"謝謝委員這確實是我們很大的挑戰不過他個人行為我們不以置評但是對於未來個人必傷剛剛不管是我們的報告還有法務部的報告都有特別講我們就是為了針對這件事情社會的期待我們在《洗錢防制法》裡面也參考國際的趨勢那未來平台成立之後我們有什麼樣更好的管理方式嗎"},{"start":519.284,"end":540.506,"text":"現在的話我們馬上假設經過大院通過我們《洗錢防制法》的話我們就可以對這些個人弊傷可以刑責這樣根據我們的預估應該會產生很大的嚇阻作用會回歸到一些正軌去就是說你必須要是來做洗房登記那洗房登記的標準就必須要完成我們滿足我們《洗錢防制法》的要求"},{"start":541.167,"end":557.957,"text":"那這樣我們在到處看得到的這些所謂的個人幣商應該就會受到一些的控制以上好 各位那個剛才賴會員委員也提到說用人的部分因為我有看到你們在爭財有關於我們的虛擬的資產兼領元我們首度計算6.8萬元以上的月薪我們也在找人"},{"start":565.241,"end":590.955,"text":"這些人找到了沒?因為我們要設立專法這些人6.8萬人算高嗎?找這樣的專業算高嗎?人找到了嗎?我們很努力很努力地找我們要第一階段三個找到兩個找到兩個三個夠不夠?當然不夠當然不夠還要再繼續找因為我們有分階段的給我們人力但是今年的三個我們大概就是再努力再找詐騙虛擬平台的管理是"},{"start":594.617,"end":609.168,"text":"很重要的業務所以我們才設打詐專法我希望在這一塊你有更具體的做法最後要問星光人壽因為你雖然上任不到一個月但是你對於壽險公司的業務你相對是非常熟悉的相對於剛才"},{"start":610.569,"end":638.074,"text":"賴氏寶委員問的其他的問題就是說對於不管是新售它是家族的問題還是金金未來併購的問題合併的問題我還是要請教就是說5月16跟5月24我們分別收到三商售跟新售提交的整體的體質改善計畫那現在已經到6月中了那我們現在對於金管會對於這兩家的改善計畫評估好不好能不能接受還是持續的改善呢對他最近送進來兩份報告滿不滿意"},{"start":640.046,"end":648.216,"text":"呃...我們...行手跟三...可不可以因為現在是保安局正在審查中我們可以請保安局局長跟您回覆,謝謝局長請檢答"},{"start":651.36,"end":673.334,"text":"法務委員他們的報告我們目前審查之後有跟公司約時間再做一些溝通那溝通完畢有沒有達到及格還是說還是不及格成績還是那個方向到底是什麼有一些他們有提出一些具體的政治計畫那我們有在評估說到底他的可行性還有他的時程請他們再更具體一點如果沒問題的話我們就會核定給他"},{"start":679.318,"end":691.345,"text":"那我這樣聽起來好像是你目前看來是滿意的再補充一些資料就可以了有一些方向上他們確實有提出來但是具體時程是不是能夠達到一定的標準這個部分我們還在溝通你還需要多少時間我們才會知道結果因為我們已經有跟他們約時間談了啦所以應該我上次就沒關係你跟他說當時我才可以再問一次"},{"start":705.033,"end":729.028,"text":"應該這個月就應該要完成溝通六月底就要完成溝通好因為這兩天新秀的新聞星光相關的新聞非常多我在最後30秒他現在新秀已經在星光金控已經在做信心增資包括公司債的部分這兩天的新聞在市場上會不會受到衝擊然後我們如果受到衝擊我們金管會的立場跟做法到底是什麼"},{"start":729.588,"end":747.311,"text":"就以法律面來看這兩個是獨立的事件但是我覺得可能有些心理你覺得會不會受到市場會不會受到衝擊我覺得心理面會受到事件影響不過我們評估過在法律上兩個是獨立的事件對不起你剛說法律面怎麼樣是獨立的事件"},{"start":748.191,"end":761.6,"text":"是圖利的事件是兩個獨立的事件是兩個獨立的事件所以你覺得短期會受到衝擊不會有影響這個是我們講心裡面的部分我們沒辦法預期但是我剛才講說就法律面我們一個是他的增資計畫一個是大股東的行為這兩個是分開的好的謝謝主委的回應謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153822","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819d2adb4845cb5de5b0fec08313b105ec0a04e565a7cce14efa9dba0c141707bd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:14:04 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10:24:53","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:14:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:24:53+08:00","duration":649,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時14分）謝謝主席，請主委及部長。"],["主席：請主委及郭部長。"],["張委員啓楷：主委及部長是這次內閣的新亮點，大家對你們算是肯定，有很多的期許，不過現在看起來好像被電綁住了，對不對？我們先看一下你們的老朋友黃仁勳怎麼說，記者問他會不會擔心臺灣缺電？你的朋友黃仁勳怎麼說？他說臺灣需要比較多的電，那未來幾年如果擴大對臺灣投資呢？黃仁勳說電力限制當然是個挑戰，所以這對兩位是很大的挑戰，其實有沒有缺電，不是用嘴巴講，它應該是科學問題，對不對？至少兩個事情要做到：第一個，你們任內不能大停電。第二個，你要推AI、半導體，產業要你跟它講電力是夠的，你看像黃仁勳，他看到就覺得擔憂，這就是你要解決的問題了。","我直接問部長一個這幾天大家都在問你的問題，你看一下，有人說你對核電的態度一變再變，你壓力太大嗎？你變了嗎？我唸給你聽，你先看一下螢幕。4月16日準部長郭智輝說核電廠要不要延役取決於全面評估；5月15日你說核能是乾淨的能源，核電部分是由多數人同意來做決定；最重要的是6月5日，一個禮拜前你就站在這邊嘛，對不對？那時候我問你，你怎麼說？你說我們會考慮，但條件是要安全，如果安全無虞，法令也許可，就要做，更重要的是下面那句話，如果修法、安檢都通過了，核二、核三可以用20年到30年。最大的轉變其實就是6月6號那場了，卓院長和你，還有主委應該也在嘛，那一場都有在場，對不對？卓院長那天宴請了民進黨立委，那一天你被震撼教育了，你後來改口說核電是沒有考慮的一部分，非核家園的態度沒有改變，這會不會轉得太大？人民現在都在看喔，也對你們有期許，以前大家覺得民調很高或者有期許的郭智輝部長，是一個專業、務實、負責任的經濟部長，可是你現在是被政治、被意識形態綁架了，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個還是一樣，我的前提就是非核家園，沒有變，只是我那時在講的時候沒有講這一句話，所以我的用詞不夠精準，這點我非常抱歉，但是我的意思是非核家園是沒有變的，但是其他的這些我是在敘述假設性的問題，也就是說今天如果我們講說這個法已經解掉了，然後我們去盤點、去看，它的安全無虞，然後核安會也通過了，認為它是可行的，所以我是在說前面都有前提啦，現在大概很多的朋友比較不會注意前面的那個假設。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你沒有很委屈、沒有被震撼教育吧？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有喔？沒有被震撼教育？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：我問你一下，你知道歷任的經濟部長任期最短的是誰嗎？現在大家在關心你，大家對你有期望，希望你當久一點啦！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：其實產業界希望你當久一點。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：可是你知道嗎？經濟部長有的任期很短喔，像左邊這一位宗才怡，你知道宗才怡做幾天嗎？你不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：不知道。"],["張委員啓楷：48天，你應該不是誤闖叢林的小白兔啦，你經驗那麼豐富，企業界對你有期待嘛，我期待你可以像王美花一樣，王美花當了快4年，可是你到底是一個短命的經濟部長，還是一個長命的經濟部長，這個很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：一方面是任期長不長。第二個，有沒有幫產業界解決問題。我剛才說的，你任期內絕對不要發生大停電，不要讓產業界的人對你說你講的是謊話，或者你不瞭解我，我根本不敢投資，這兩個事情一出現，我跟你講，你民調就掉下來了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不要大停電。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：要讓產業界講真心話，真的幫他們解決問題，期待你像王美花的任期，不是宗才怡，可是相對地，你要幫產業界解決問題，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：不要讓人家覺得以前那個務實、專業的郭智輝不見了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你要不要幫你的老朋友打打氣？他可以解決剛剛講的那兩個問題，不會大停電並且滿足企業界的用電嗎？用電不只要足夠，還要是穩定的電、低碳的電，你覺得你的老朋友郭智輝部長可以做得到嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分我們幾乎每天都有溝通，我對他信心十足。"],["張委員啓楷：有信心喔？好，所以希望你可以做久一點，而且可以解決問題，可是我剛才說過了，電夠不夠是科學問題，不是意識形態跟政治的問題，它也是簡單的數學問題。我們來看，你的挑戰在這裡，現在核三廠的1號機7月27日要停了，明年5月2號機也要停了，減少了7%的電力，我們的電力少了7%，然後你自己講說過去5年我們的平均用電每一年是成長2.03%，郭部長你自己說的，加上AI進來之後，AI需求爆發的影響，我們臺灣每一年增加的電力是3%，到2029年，你算看看，用5年來算就好了，我們的電力至少要增加16%，少了7%，增加16%，你去哪裡生這麼多電出來？所以那時候的解方是把核電當成一個備援的電力，對不對？第二個，現在看起來你的電要生出來，是從大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機，對不對？可是現在看起來，三接到現在都還沒建完，你到時候會不會接不上來？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，三接在明年4月就會建完。"],["張委員啓楷：4月？"],["郭部長智輝：明年的4月。"],["張委員啓楷：這個有把握吧？"],["郭部長智輝：這個有。"],["張委員啓楷：不要用那個……"],["郭部長智輝：不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：現在看起來四接跟五接環評還有問題。"],["郭部長智輝：我去看過了。"],["張委員啓楷：你有去看過了？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["張委員啓楷：下軍令狀喔，明年4月一定要夠喔！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：足夠的話，三接有成的話，大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機才有天然氣可以用喔。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["張委員啓楷：要不然的話，你就真的是缺電了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再看下一個，除了四接、五接要真的接上來之外，還有一個問題，就是低碳。AI需要穩定的電，而且是低碳的，對不對？現在連環境部部長都講，2050年淨零碳排臺灣不可能達到。另外，我提醒你一個點，發展產業之外，臺灣人的健康也要顧到，對不對？我相信你有這個體認，主委跟部長應該都很注意這個，臺灣人的肺是比較耐操嗎？臺灣現在的用電1年是3,000億度，製造了多少、產生了多少的碳？1.27億噸，我們現在肺癌跟肺腺癌的發生率是全世界第十五名，罹癌的、死掉的，致死率最高的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌，可是現在看起來你的替代方案，核電停掉了，低碳的核電停掉了，現在都是天然氣，都是燃煤，甚至有一個內幕很重要，前幾天你還把麥寮的燃煤電廠續約了，它是民間的，你本來跟它在5月就停止合約了，對不對？但你跟它續約到明年底，那個是用燃煤發電啊，我是嘉義人，那個對嘉義地區、對雲林地區、對臺中、彰化地區民眾的健康影響是很大的喔！我現在提醒……"],["郭部長智輝：這個是……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在要提醒你，要有足夠的電、穩定的電、低碳的電的同時，也要顧到人民的健康，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的，報告委員，那個是雲林縣政府的要求。"],["張委員啓楷：雲林縣政府的要求？"],["郭部長智輝：是，減煤的要求啦。"],["張委員啓楷：這方面我……"],["郭部長智輝：合約是他們……"],["張委員啓楷：問題是買是你們台電在買啊！你如果為了人民的健康，其實我覺得它是那麼古老的電廠，而且燒的是煤，為什麼不停呢？部長，你如果電力夠的話，我鄭重呼籲，不要再買它的電了。"],["郭部長智輝：因為它那個是……"],["張委員啓楷：它已經除役了嘛，它的時間就是到了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：它那個是25年……"],["張委員啓楷：而且又是燃煤的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，如你所指導的，但是這個部分，契約就是這樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：契約就到期了啊，契約就是5月31日到期啊！你們現在是延期，為什麼要延到明年底？"],["郭部長智輝：5月31日到期，但是因為這裡面有一些……"],["張委員啓楷：這個我們找一天再來追，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，站在人民健康的立場，其實不是只有雲嘉南、彰化跟臺中，你看中南部的肺腺癌跟肺癌那麼嚴重，人命關天，你也注意一下，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：最後，我要求兩個東西，第一個，部長，請提出電力設施如果銜接不上時，你有什麼緊急的方案，你本來有7%的電，你硬要把它停掉，我知道你可能也為難，因為你是政務官，你可能也為難，你核三1號機又要停，可是發生緊急狀況銜接不上的時候，你有什麼緊急方案？第二個，你現在核能不延役了，未來一年因為核三廠1號機停完之後，你增加多少的碳排跟發電成本？你兩個禮拜內給我一份報告，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：加油！"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：期待你不是一個短命的經濟部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：可是如果要像王部長當4年的話，不要大停電，而且電力要充足的同時，還要是低碳的、穩定的電，讓產業可以真正發展，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝部長，也謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝。主席台宣告一下，待會鄭正鈐委員質詢完畢，我們休息3分鐘。"],["主席（張委員啓楷代）：請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","蔡易餘","羅智強","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教\n育部首長就「為掌握生成式 AI 等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化 AI 生態系及充\n實 AI 人才與產業 AI 化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用 AI 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這個還是一樣我的前提就是非核家園是沒有變只是我那個時候在講的時候沒有講這一句話所以我的用詞不夠精準這點我非常抱歉但是我想我的意思就是說非核家園是沒有變但是其他的這些假設性問題我在敘述假設性的問題也就是說今天如果我們講說這個法"},{"start":203.843,"end":216.878,"text":"已經解掉了然後我們去盤點然後去看他安全無虞然後這個核安會他也通過了認為他是可行的所以我是在講說前面都有前提"},{"start":217.881,"end":244.229,"text":"那現在大概很多的朋友就是會比較不注意前面的那個假設部長你沒有很委屈沒有被震撼教育沒有沒有沒有被震撼教育我問你一下你知道經濟部長你認的經濟部長任期最短的是誰嗎現在大家在關心你大家對你有問嗎嗎希望你當久一點謝謝在產業界希望你當久一點是"},{"start":247.674,"end":270.548,"text":"可是你知道嗎?經濟部長有的任期很短喔!左邊這一位中材宜你知道中材宜這幾天喔?你不知道?四十八天你應該不是誤闖叢林的小白兔啦你經驗那麼豐富企業界對你有期待嘛我期待你可以像王美花一樣王美花當了快四年"},{"start":271.684,"end":292.657,"text":"可是你到底是一個短命的經濟部長還是一個長命的經濟部長這個很重要喔是一方面任期長不長第二個有沒有幫產業界解決問題我知道說了你任期絕對不要發生大停電產業界的人對你說說你講的是謊話或者你不了解我我根本不敢投資這兩個事情一出現我跟你講你明天就掉下來了"},{"start":293.837,"end":315.883,"text":"好不好不要大停電讓產業界講真心話真的幫他們解決問題期待你是王美花的任期不是中產儀可是相對你要幫產業界解決問題好不好不要讓人家覺得說那個以前務實專業的勾字會不見的好不好主委你要不要幫你的老朋友打打氣主委"},{"start":317.735,"end":341.984,"text":"他可以解決剛剛講那兩個問題嘛對不對規大停電 滿足企業界的用電嗎用電是要不夠喔要是穩定的電喔 低碳的電喔你記得 你的老朋友 郭志輝 郭部長可以做得到嗎這個幾乎我們每天都有溝通啦我對他信心十足我信心啦好 所以希望可以做久一點而且可以解決問題來 可是啊 我剛才講過啦電夠不夠啊 是科學問題"},{"start":344.83,"end":362.193,"text":"不是意識形態跟政治的問題,它是簡單的數學問題。」我們來看你的挑戰在這裡你現在河山廠的1號機727要停了明年5月2號機要停了減了7%的電力我們的電力少了7%"},{"start":363.82,"end":386.852,"text":"然後呢你自己講的過去5年我們的平均用電每一年是成長2.03%郭部長你自己講的加上AI進來之後AI需求爆發的影響我們台灣每一年增加的電力是3%你到2029年剩下多少用5年來算就好了我們的電力至少要增加16%少7%增加16%你去找這麼多電出來你去找這麼多電出來所以那個地方"},{"start":391.499,"end":409.211,"text":"把核電當成一個備援的電力對不對然後第二個你現在看起來你的電量生出來你是從大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機嘛對不對可是現在看起來三接到現在端也見完阿你到時候會不會接不上來報告委員那個三接在明年的4月就會見完"},{"start":413.111,"end":438.003,"text":"這有把握啦不要不要用那個現在看起來4號跟4J跟5J環境我去看過了你去看過了現在精靈狀喔沒你4位是啦一定要搞啊是是是有過的話有3J有層的話才有可能你的大潭電廠的7號機跟9號機才有天然氣可以用是是要不然的話你就真的是缺電了是好不好好來我們再看下一個除了"},{"start":440.399,"end":469.307,"text":"世界5G要真的接上來之外還有一個問題就是低碳AI需要穩定的電嘛 對不對而且是低碳嘛現在連環境部的部長都講2050年淨零碳排台灣不可能另外我提醒一個點發展產業之外台灣人的健康要補給對不對我相信你有這個體認主委跟部長應該都很注意這個台灣人的費是比較耐操嗎台灣現在用電一年是3000"},{"start":470.788,"end":489.478,"text":"三千億度,製造了多少?產生了多少的這個碳?1.27億噸!我們現在肺癌跟肺腺癌發生的是全世界第15例癌的死掉的致死率最高的也是肺癌跟肺腺癌"},{"start":490.469,"end":508.691,"text":"可是現在看起來你的替代方案你核電停掉了低碳的核電停掉了可是你現在都是天然氣喔都是燃煤喔甚至有一個內幕很重要你前幾天啊你還把賣寮的燃煤的這個電廠它是民間的你本來跟它午夜就是停止合約的嘛 對不對"},{"start":510.134,"end":538.309,"text":"你跟他續約到明年底那個是用燃煤啊那個是對我自己人啊那個對嘉義地區對雲林地區對台中彰化地區那個健康影響是很大的喔我現在提醒我現在提醒要有足夠的電穩定的電低碳的電的同時顧到人民的健康好不好好的不過那個是報告委員那是婚姻管政府要要求啦婚姻管政府要要求減煤的要求啦"},{"start":539.998,"end":562.57,"text":"這個問題是你台電在買啊你如果為了人民的健康其實我覺得它是那麼古老的電廠那麼古老的電廠而且影響是燒的施展煤為什麼不停呢你如果電力夠的話部長你如果電力夠的話我鄭重呼籲不要再買它的電了因為它已經廚藝了嘛它時間就是到了啊而且又是施展煤了"},{"start":564.525,"end":588.607,"text":"是的,是如您所指導的,但是這個部分就是契約契約就夠了,契約就是5月31日夠了你們現在是延期,為什麼要延到明年底啊好不好,這個我們早些再來追啦我跟你講,站在人民的健康,比起不是只有雲嘉蘭、彰化跟台中啦你看那個中南部的那個肺腺癌跟肺癌那麼嚴重好不好,人民關天也注意一下最後我要求兩個東西好不好"},{"start":590.489,"end":616.066,"text":"第一個部長你提出電力設施如果銜接不上你有什麼緊急的方案好不好你本來7%的電力硬要把它停掉我知道你可能也為難因為你是政務官嘛你可能也為難河山廠也要計劃停可是緊急發生狀況銜接不上的時候你有什麼緊急方案第二個你現在核能不研議了增加多少的未來一年好了好不好未來一年因為河山廠"},{"start":617.352,"end":641.034,"text":"一要GYD停完之後你增加多少的碳排跟發電的這個成本你兩個禮拜給我個報告好不好好的好加油期待期待不是一個短命的經濟部長可是如果像黃部長要當4年的話不要大停電而且電力要充充足的同時要是低碳的又是一個穩定的電好不好讓產業真正可以發展好不好是是是好謝謝部長也謝謝主委好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153821","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81934fd84eaaca14e7498b2dfa55713766ca04e565a7cce14ef8b382dd59e615ff75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:08:57 - 10:23:31","影片長度":"00:14:34","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:08:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:23:31+08:00","duration":874,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時9分）謝謝主席。有請法務部黃次長。"],["主席：麻煩黃次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：請司法院吳秘書長好不好？"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有刑事廳李廳長，來就教一下他的高見。"],["主席：李廳長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，還有秘書長，三位好。我想廢話我就不多說了。次長，你們在立法院談偵查不公開的部分，我覺得你們都回得不好。立法院的立法委員在看待偵查不公開，幾乎都只看到刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條第一項偵查不公開，都沒有看到第三項。第三項其實講得非常清楚，「除依法令或為維護公共利益或者保護合法權益有必要者外」，當然是不得公開，但這三項是得公開的。之後第五項是由司法院、行政院共同定之。現在他們是顛倒過來講，所以我特別提醒一下。","但我還是要就教一下。延續我們上個禮拜大家所提到的，就科偵法部分來說，我相信你們第一個會碰到外界在講的：為什麼不放在刑事訴訟法裡面？第一個會碰到這個問題，這個是比較怪。當然，講特別條例也可以，像DNA採樣條例、刑事妥速審判法、通保法跟國民法官法，這些都是刑事訴訟法的特別規定，當然都可以。我簡單講，定在刑事訴訟法裡，對那些真正有志於學法律的人來說比較方便，而且國外也有這樣的立法例可以作為參考。","接下來我要問就是，本席一直在強調整個核心問題在於干預授權跟通知救濟。也就是說，在把這一些列為偵查的手段時，其實應該要制定新法。所謂的新法就是，在刑事訴訟法的強制規範當中，希望這些手段能夠得到法律授權。本席一直在強調的就是，事後的通知涉及國家採取這些秘密科技手段去干預到基本人權的時候，要怎麼樣去提供這些受干預的人事後救濟的一個機會？就像我一直講的，這是在神不知鬼不覺、來無影去無蹤被干預了，所以對於被干預的人來說，要提供他一個救濟機會，履行通知義務，告訴他們怎麼樣主張救濟；至於所蒐集的資料，也要保持一定的期限，並有刪除的規定。為此，我特別去請教了，我知道司法院司法廳這邊的意見其實是不排除，你們也認為說本來就有權利、就有救濟，通知沒有什麼。我又特別把警政署找來，我問他們：這對你們來說有沒有什麼特別的困難？他們的答案讓我嚇一跳。他們說，我們也認為有這些強制手段、偵查手段完以後，通知也沒有什麼。所以法務部到底在堅持什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我不清楚委員問的是不是個案的承辦員警，但我們在整個審查過程當中，警政署同意24小時內的GPS是司法警察可以職權處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：GPS？你要說GPS……"],["黃次長謀信：至於其他的，跟委員報告，其他的科技偵查都有法官保留救濟……"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，容我以你來做舉例。我在你的車子上放GPS，但沒有超過24小時，我動不動就用這樣的方式，針對黃謀信，這樣合理嗎？都不用告訴你。因為我去喔，就是我把你定位完以後，我用GPS把你定位完以後，我總是要去拆下來吧，對不對？那我來通知你，你說這個都不用通知，說到別人，你可能覺得沒什麼，但如果說到你的家人，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，超過24小時就是一定要通知啊。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我說23小時半，23小時半，踐行這個通知的程序真的會有那麼困難嗎？這涉及到什麼，你很清楚啦，我們現在來講的話，今天你發動一個強制處分，我去哪一些人家去做搜索，搜索時人還可以在場耶，對不對？我還可以表達我的看法耶，但你這個人家都不知道了，你說這個不用通知，我就覺得怪，這涉及到你採……","我們今天就是，現在還不行嘛，你現在如果用這樣去做的話，你一提出來，就被司法院給你打槍了，因為你這是違法採證，連證據都不能用，會有這樣的問題啊！那我們現在是要把它合法，有法律的授權，你就可以這樣做了喔，那你可以這樣做完以後，你說不用通知當事人，我一直考慮啦，你看我這是第三次在質詢你們，我的語氣都不是在跟你們杯葛，我都認為真的要好好地來做一個考慮。司法院我真的也問過啦，他們也認為，我不要說秘書長，私底下我問他們的看法，他們認為這涉及到人權的考量，這也確實啊，你去看看我們刑事訴訟法拒絕證言權那個部分，我們的觀念跟德國已經完全相反。德國是認為這一些人你連去監拍都不可以，但我們是「我才不管你，我就跟你採證完以後，檢察官把你傳喚過來以後，你再去主張你的拒絕證言權就好了」，我們是觀念都已經顛覆了喔，那我們現在還要賦予你們偵查機關這麼強大的一個權力以後，你認為都不用踐行這個通知。不用踐行通知就是說你連救濟程序也都不要了，這會涉及到後面當你被傳訊當證人的時候，我如果是辯護律師的話，本來如果我們抄德國法的話，我馬上會跟你講，你那個根本就不能列為證據，會不會有這樣的問題？秘書長，修法啦，我們這個是在立法，應該是把那個根本的拿出來討論。"],["吳秘書長三龍：站在司法院的立場，保障人權這個方向，我們認為這個要一直努力下去啦，要保障人權。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是你都沒有說出來啊，我也知道要保障人權，大家都知道要保障人權。"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以該通知的，司法院的立場應該還是，儘量還是要通知啦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我再提出來，我真的會，因為那天黃國昌委員提到我講的那個100h的部分，他說沒有規定，我回去再讀了一遍，你知道嗎？我回去再讀了一下德國刑事訴訟法，它的100h裡面是針對監看的那個要件，101條是針對告知義務，包含受重大干預的一個通知的義務。他們監看的部分，我上次就有提出來，它還有兩個前提，要有其他手段沒有辦法調查的一個犯罪事實，這個我們已經沒有了，德國是這麼嚴格喔！然後針對非調查主體的人，必須有事實上與當事人有所關聯的。我要講的就是說，我現在提的都只有這部分而已喔，如果是涉及到第三人的部分，我們也沒有保障！你的看法？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果是監看部分的話，事實上這部分我們也是規定，當然我們沒有區分第三人或者被告，我們事實上有法官保留，還有事後的通知跟監督機制，都有啊！我們現在唯一沒有的是GPS 24小時內的而已，其他的都是有相關的通知機制跟相關的監督機制，都有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，我再跟你們再次提醒，我們要抄德國，可以！德國是認為他的住宅是他最後的避難所，連監看、監拍都不可以！"],["黃次長謀信：沒有錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：但是他……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們都知道嘛。"],["黃次長謀信：知道，跟委員報告，他卻反而允許室內的大監聽，監聽是可以的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，但我們都可以了耶！"],["黃次長謀信：我們室內不能夠監聽，臺灣的通保法，室內是不能夠監聽的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們現在立法後，你們就可以監拍了啊。"],["黃次長謀信：他是從外部的看。"],["莊委員瑞雄：從外部啊。"],["黃次長謀信：他是攝影跟監看，不是錄音，不能夠錄音，不能夠有聲音的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：監看的部分，德國現在是……"],["黃次長謀信：對，監看他們不行。"],["莊委員瑞雄：連拍都不可以！"],["黃次長謀信：所以跟委員報告，這涉及到每個國家它的立法宗旨。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我懂你們的意思啦，我只是在提醒，我的意思就是說，我們在抄都抄人家的一部分，人家不行的我們都沒有抄，我們要用人家的手段，人家的要件我們也沒有加進去，我講的是這個！所以我才特別去提醒說，請你們針對救濟的部分，沒有通知就不會有救濟啊，所以我一直在講說，你們真的要再考慮一下。我都不好意思去講說在野黨總算有點醒了啦，我講第三次了，這些我講的都不是要杯葛你們，我想說的是，這涉及到基本人權的保障，我們真的要好好討論，你不可能做一輩子嘛，對不對？就算讓你做到部長，讓你們做到司法院院長，哪一天你們下來的時候，你會發現說「哎喲，在我任內我怎麼給人家通過這個」，身為一個法律人基本的堅持，你總是要有啊，我總是要跟你們提醒一下，這一些涉及到基本的，你們有沒有看過哈利波特？三位有沒有看過哈利波特？次長，你有看過哈利波特嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你沒有看過，我告訴你，死神的聖物有三樣，其中最可怕的是那個古墓的魔杖，它威力很強大，它非常強大，所以佛地魔為了爭那個魔杖，跟哈利波特打得非常激烈，你知道嗎？到最後呢，我為什麼要特別舉這個例子？因為這個威力非常強大，我不敢說這個科偵法通過以後，就像那個古墓魔杖一樣，但是稍有不慎，你真的會鬧得滿城風雨啦，真的會啦！如果我卸任以後，我再去當律師的話，我真的馬上會主張這個，我甚至會覺得說你們這個偵查的程序裡面，到底有沒有涉及到違憲，我們何必修法完以後，讓後面有人有機會這樣去主張呢？為什麼有機會這樣去主張？因為司法院還有法務部你們很清楚啊，德國的法令有一部分，我們就真的給人家抄一半而已啊，大法官真的有可能因為這樣子把它宣告為違憲，在你們的任內這樣通過，你們要找我們跟你們一起陪葬，我覺得真的不好啦。所以我一直在講說，賦予偵查機關來打擊犯罪，這個我都贊同，都贊同，但是這一些涉及基本人權保障的東西，我才會請你們再考慮一下，看怎麼樣去設計一下，只要有涉及到基本權利的一個侵害的，本來有干預，你去做一個通知，然後有救濟，我覺得很合理，我看司法院這邊沒有意見耶，次長，你是不是要再想一下？來，我讓你再說明一下。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們的立場已經說了非常多次了，這部分並不是說，因為整個刑訴它其實是一個權衡的過程，被告的人權保障跟事實的發現，是做一個權衡的過程，這部分，其實24小時內的這個GPS，它只是一個，像我們現在如果沒有GPS 24小時的規定，現在司法警察事實上在路上也在跟監啊，照樣達到這個目的，只是這是一個土法煉鋼的方式，現在既然有GPS，透過科技方法來輔助司法警察原有那個眼睛的跟監功能而已，只有這樣子而已，24小時內的功能而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我當然懂啊，你是說要打擊犯罪，然後不要有漏網之魚，可是漏網之魚相對的概念就是傷及無辜，這兩個是互相衝突的概念啊。你說我們兩個在一起，要拍你的，我有夠倒楣，被人家拍到以後，理論上本來就是不行的啊，比如說我們刑事訴訟法講的拒絕證言權的部分，我們也是顛覆人家啊，人家是，他們連政治人物也不行，那我們這邊沒有人敢提出來，覺得政治人物也沒有比較大。我的意思就是說，我們都是說我先做了再說，你有這些身分，你再來主張拒絕證言權，但人家是說，你連做你都不能去做！我擔心的是這一些就變成本來都不能當成呈庭證據的，本來是法官看到就會排除掉、排除掉、排除掉，但你現在不是喔，現在上來以後都可以，要等當事人來主張說我有這樣的一個身分，說NO，我拒絕證言，你會碰到這個部分啊。像比如說醫生、心理醫師，本來那天拍到的是醫師，拍到他的心理醫師或者是他的律師，這些人到庭上來，他就說「我主張拒絕證言權」，那就可以了。但別人的立法例是這些本來就不行，所以我還是要跟你講，因為它威力強大，所以我們不要亂用，以免到後來會變成巫師，你知道嗎？還沒有真正進入到逐條以前，再考慮一下！我苦口婆心跟你講，再考慮一下，我真的沒有惡意，但這是一個，我認為你們的法學素養都非常好，同樣都是法律人，我站在這個地方，我的法學素養並沒有比你們更深厚，我只是提出很卑微的一個提醒，打擊犯罪、發現真實，大家都願意，但是針對這些基本人權侵害的部分，是不是考慮一下怎設計？司法院也認為沒有問題，至於警察的部分，我不曉得你們跟誰討論，但是問一問之後，看起來他們覺得事後給人家通知一下也合理，現在你們撐在那個地方，請再考慮一下，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.62846875,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":16.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.47159375,"end":16.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.21346875,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.60159375,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.69409375,"end":24.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.16659375,"end":23.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.731593750000002,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.85784375,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.144718750000003,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.392843750000004,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.53534375,"end":46.049093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.66909375,"end":49.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.187843750000006,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.06096875,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.48096875,"end":63.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.70596875000001,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.98409375,"end":84.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.71784375,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.17409375000001,"end":114.37596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.08471875000001,"end":152.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.07909375,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.96471875,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.55471875,"end":172.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.79721875,"end":184.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.01471875000001,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.17034375,"end":189.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.26284375,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.69534375,"end":204.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.64034375,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.13596875000002,"end":227.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.05971875,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.44284375,"end":226.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.10096875000002,"end":229.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.17221875,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.07471875000002,"end":234.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.90971875000002,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.47846875000002,"end":248.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.56159375000001,"end":249.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.13534375,"end":251.48534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.83971875,"end":253.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.96596875000003,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.79284375,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.49659375000005,"end":262.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.43721875,"end":262.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.89284375,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.91784375000003,"end":269.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.12784375,"end":273.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.19909375000003,"end":276.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.19034375,"end":278.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.43034375,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«刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":47.891,"end":68.368,"text":"偵查不公開之都沒有去看到第三項。」第三項你們其實講得非常清楚啊除於依據法令或維護公共利益或是保護合法權益有必要者外當然你這不得公開這三項是得公開然後你才在第五項的時候就叫你們去用會同那個司法院的你們還有行政院共同去治病"},{"start":69.61,"end":70.471,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":86.755,"end":92.838,"text":"第一個會碰到這個問題嘛 這個就比較怪了當然你們要講特別條例也可以啦那你像比如說DNA採樣條例、刑事這個妥數審判法還有通保法跟國民法官法這些都刑事訴訟法的一個特別的一個規定當然都可以但是我簡單的講啦實際上在刑事訴訟法裡面對現在真正有治癒學法律的人比較方便"},{"start":110.288,"end":125.992,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":128.473,"end":144.619,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七"},{"start":153.963,"end":170.825,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":172.807,"end":185.812,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":203.72,"end":232.142,"text":"市長跟委員報告那委員問的是不是個案的懲辦員警我不清楚但我們在整個審查過程當中整個警政署是同意這個二十四小時內的GPS是採用司法警察可以直接處理的GPS不啦好啦你別講GPS話那你其他的跟委員報告你其他的這個科技偵查他都有法官保齡社會救濟市長容我來與你來做舉例啦我把你的車子放一個GPS啦"},{"start":233.14,"end":247.824,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第"},{"start":254.827,"end":263.091,"text":"二十三小時半建行這個通知的程序真的會有那麼困難嗎?這涉及到什麼?你很清楚啦我們現在來講的話你說我去我今天你發動一個強制處分我去哪一些人家去做搜索欸搜索人還可以在場欸對不對我還可以表達我的看法欸"},{"start":284.724,"end":297.907,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五"},{"start":313.516,"end":325.303,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五百四十五條之一、第五"},{"start":329.153,"end":349.634,"text":"條文修正草案案 刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":350.865,"end":362.954,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五條之一、九十五"},{"start":374.942,"end":387.112,"text":"會涉及到後面你被傳訊當證人的時候我如果是辯護律師的話馬上我本來如果我們採抄德國法的話我馬上會跟你講你那個是你那個是根本就不能列為證據啊會不會有這樣的問題那個秘書長修法我們這個是在立法應該是把那個根本的把它拿出來討論"},{"start":398.379,"end":406.111,"text":"在司法院立場是保障人權這個方向我們認為這個要一直努力下去要保障人權"},{"start":407.205,"end":429.002,"text":"但是你都沒說我所謂保障人權大家也知道保障人權所以該通知的司法院立場應該還是盡量還是要通知我再提出來我真的會因為那天黃國昌委員去提到我講的那個100H的部分他剛好說沒有規定我回去再讀你知道嗎我回去再把它讀德國刑事訴訟法"},{"start":431.064,"end":449.776,"text":"二十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條"},{"start":451.337,"end":458.868,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、"},{"start":466.909,"end":487.442,"text":"你的看法,次長?各位報告,這如果說是這個監看的部分的話我們事實上這部分我們也是規定當然沒有區分第三人或者被告我們事實上有法官保留還有事後的通知跟監督機制都有啊我們現在唯一沒有的是GPS24小時內的而已其他的都是有相關的通知機制跟相關的監督機制都有"},{"start":489.265,"end":510.644,"text":"市長我再跟你們提醒我們要抄德國可以德國是他認為他的住宅他是最後的避難所連監看都監派都不可以沒錯對不對但是他你們都知道吧我知道但是委員報告他卻反而允許室內的大監聽是監聽是可以的我們都可以了"},{"start":512.837,"end":513.417,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":529.147,"end":539.895,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":552.841,"end":561.991,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":563.069,"end":587.821,"text":"我講了第三次了啦這些我講的都不是杯葛裡面就想說這涉及到基本人權的我們真的要好好討論你不可能做一四人嘛 對吧讓你做到保證 讓你做到十萬年議定哪一天你們下來的時候你會發現說哎喲 在我任內我怎麼給人家通過這個這個你這個法律人基本的一個堅持總是要有啊我總是要去提 跟你們提醒一下那這一些涉及到基本的你 你要看過那個哈利波特嗎"},{"start":591.795,"end":602.961,"text":"三位有沒有看過哈利波特?市長你有看過哈利波特嗎?沒有。你沒看過我就告訴你。死神的聖物有三樣其中最可怕的是那個古墓的魔杖威力很強大。"},{"start":603.82,"end":616.168,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":629.451,"end":654.845,"text":"如果我卸任以後我再去當律師的話我真的馬上會主張這個我甚至會覺得說你們這個偵查的程序裡面到底會不會涉及到違憲我們何必修法完以後讓後面的有人有機會這樣去主張為什麼有機會這樣去主張因為司法院還有法務部你們很清楚啊德國的法令有一部分我們就真的給人家抄一半而已啊大法官真的有可能因為這樣子把你宣告給違憲還在你們的任內這樣通過"},{"start":657.895,"end":675.812,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":676.88,"end":689.91,"text":"只要有涉及到基本權利的一個侵害的你本來有干預你去做一個通知然後有救濟我覺得很合理我看司法院這邊沒有意見了次長你是不是要再講再想一下跟你講一下來"},{"start":693.719,"end":715.084,"text":"各位報告我們的立場已經說了非常多次了那這部分並不是因為說整個刑訴他其實做一個全實在權衡的過程被告的人權保障和事實的發現是做一個權衡的過程那這部分其實他24小時內的這一個GPS他只是一個像我們現在如果沒有GPS的20小時規定我們現在司法警察他事實上在路上也在跟監啊"},{"start":716.124,"end":739.197,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":741.294,"end":756.919,"text":"這個兩個是互相衝突的一個概念啊你說我們兩個在一起要拍你的話有夠衰被人欺騙了喔理論上本來就是不行的啊你像比如說那個我們刑事訴訟法講的那個拒絕證言權的部分啊"},{"start":757.782,"end":777.014,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":786.42,"end":806.964,"text":"現在上來以後都可以,那要等當事人來主張說我有這樣的一個身份,那NO我拒絕證言,你會碰到這個部分啊,你像比如說是醫生、心理醫師,我哪天派到的是醫師,或者派到他的心理醫師,或者是他的律師,那這些到庭上來他就說我主張拒絕證言權,那可以了。"},{"start":809.65,"end":826.393,"text":"四十條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、"},{"start":827.867,"end":844.956,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":845.523,"end":873.739,"text":"提出很卑微的一個提醒打擊犯罪發現真實大家都願意但是這些基本的一個人權的侵害的部分是不是考慮一下怎麼設計司法院也認為沒有問題的啦那警察的部分我不曉得你們跟誰討論啊但是問一問看起來他們覺得啊事後給人家捅低一下也合理的啊你們撐在那個地方再考慮一下好不好再考慮再考慮一下"}]}},{"id":"153820","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153820","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81986a57c8199d1268b25a148732a468ab6a04e565a7cce14ef39431ddb69bbbff55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:08:11 - 10:22:44","影片長度":"00:14:33","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:08:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:22:44+08:00","duration":873,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":310,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時8分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：鄭部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於霸凌的事情，我們只抓最近這個禮拜的新聞，光是過去這一個禮拜就至少有3起，有關樣態，我想前面已經有很多委員說了，我簡單地說，有師生聯手霸凌學生、師對生霸凌還有生對生霸凌，很多人很容易在網路上、社群平臺上，或者在很多學生次文化團體的社群平臺上看到這些訊息，不僅會有模仿效應，其實也會引起非常多家長的恐懼，我要談的是這個困境。當然，我非常感謝教育部在前一陣子公布校園霸凌防制準則，光是在這件事情上，我們知道教育部跟不同的委員，還有跟不同的民間團體、專家學者真的開了無數次的會，我相信在這個會議中最辛苦的學特司司長一定非常清楚。","可是我們在現場看到另外一個困境，在校園霸凌防制準則裡面提到，相關的委員會必須要過半數委員從生對生的人才庫外聘，或者是高中以下解聘辦法裡面談到的調查委員也要外聘，當時非常多委員都有強調這件事情，希望保持校內不要產生師師相護，或者是沒有相關的專家學者進入調查當中。可是執行之後發生一個很大的困境，我必須要先自己承認，其實我也不知道會發生這個困境，非常感謝在現場的校長、主任跟老師積極地告訴我們，他們遇到的困境是費用的問題，每一個外聘委員的費用還有寫調查報告的費用都必須由學校自行支付。請教學特司司長，我講的這部分對不對？對。當我們聽到這個消息之後，我們最大的疑問是錢從哪裡來？很多的校長直接告訴我們，學校有一部分的費用支付在這裡，真的不夠就拜託家長會，用家長募款的方法來支應這些費用，若再不夠呢？通常我們發現愈小的學校或是都會型的學校愈多相關的案件，所以錢很不夠，這個很不夠的狀況我覺得已經造成學校的困擾了。我要自己再度承認，確實我們當時完全沒想到這個事情，我很好奇目前學特司或是教育部這邊怎麼因應這個費用的部分？","我們來試算一下給部長看，以性平案調查為例，第一次召開會議的外聘委員出席費，1個人至少2,500元，受理後進行調查，1個人再2,500元，這都只是1個人喔！可是我剛剛說要2到3個或是過半數以上，相關調查報告是每1,000個字1,080元，到了結案會議，1個人又是2,500元，假設事件成立，我們推論霸凌事件產生這麼多費用，也就是每個案子至少都是5,000元以上，甚至是破萬，有一些案件因為家長的堅持，必須不斷、不斷召開相關的委員會來討論這件事情，因此我這裡寫到產生的費用都還算稍微保留一些些，但是我們真的很擔心，目前這些費用我們到底要如何協助學校？光是費用的部分就讓學校這麼頭痛，更不要講所有的調查程序跟中間所有老師、家長，還有行政人員、學生在這些事件當中共同付出的心力，所以可不可以請部長或是司長快速回應我們？關於這個費用的部分，目前有沒有什麼規劃，或者有沒有聽到縣市政府已經告訴你們所遇到的困境？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正，在校外委員、調查委員的外聘費用部分，除了地方政府的協助，我們現在大概每一案是給1萬到1萬5,000元，也就是說……"],["陳委員培瑜：每一個案子嗎？每一個呈的案子嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，師對生的校園霸凌部分是給1萬5,000元，因為涉及到老師，生對生我們是給1萬，除了地方政府的經費支持以外，為了協助地方的中小學，教育部在這部分也提供經費的補助。"],["陳委員培瑜：你們目前聽到縣市政府或是地方學校給你們的回饋是費用都沒問題，可是跟我們聽到的，感覺起來有很大的落差。"],["鄭部長英耀：如同委員所提的，這個辦法我們剛實施，我們從5月發現這個問題，所以5月份才開始，等於上個月我們才開始提供這樣的經費補助。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為接下來就要放暑假了，是不是可以規劃一個時程表，到底要怎麼收縣市政府教育局相關的意見跟費用？一旦這些委員會不斷開啟之後，如果所有老師們要花費非常多力氣跟時間在這些事情上，影響到教學狀況又會是如何？因為已經有很多文章跟投書直接告訴教育部、地方教育局，請把老師還給我們做教學，而不是做調查。之前在討論霸凌防制準則的時候，我們就一直拜託教育部必須把教育的理念放進去，所以我也要echo剛剛召委提到的學輔法部分，為什麼要談到學輔法？其實賴清德總統在選舉的時候單獨提出一個行動方案，關於學生的部分非常明確寫出「推動學生輔導法修法」，我相信這絕對不是天外飛來一筆，我相信已經有很多人意識到身心健康這件事情在中學、小學到高中有很大的困境。","當然我非常感謝教育部，在上一個會期已經通過大學心輔人力從1比1,200到1比900，不修法而直接給予費用，但是我真的要拜託部長，小學、中學跟高中真的有很大的困境，所以之前才會有學生主動跟賴清德總統提出，去看心理諮商的部分可不可以往下到國中？因為之前只有18歲到35歲。我只是要告訴部長，也告訴所有的行政長官，你們必須要知道很多孩子已經有意識，甚且他們的家長不見得支持，要如何把孩子的聲音提出來？所以我想再次拜託部長，請問學生輔導法什麼時候會讓我們看見一線曙光？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，基本上我們現在努力安排在8月底之前能夠送到大院。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼召委突然……好，8月底之前送進立法院。好，我們先暫時這樣……"],["鄭部長英耀：暫訂啦！我想……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，暫訂啦！我們期待可以更早，好不好？因為孩子們在學校的狀況真的非常辛苦，而且孩子們對應到的其實是老師們教學上的痛苦，而老師們的痛苦其實也回應到家長在這件事情上的無力跟無能，以及不知道該怎麼辦，非常非常多的困境需要大家一起幫忙，我們就先記得在8月底以前。","但是我剛剛說的那個費用，蒐集相關資訊然後做進一步的規劃報告，有機會在3個月內給所有教育文化委員會的委員一份報告嗎？關於我剛才說的委員會調查費用，目前各縣市政府執行的狀況。"],["鄭部長英耀：在9月底之前。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，9月底之前，謝謝部長。","下一個部分是「零容忍」，教育部一直談的「零容忍」是什麼呢？霸凌零容忍、毒品零容忍、性騷零容忍、兒虐零容忍，部長，您認同嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：這我認同。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長您上任不久，我想要快速跟你分享一下，我們辦公室在過去這一年多以來，一直關注所有學校現場，除了一般的教學現場之外，學校還有另外一個樣貌，就是跟體育運動發展有關的樣態，有非常多問題要拜託部長跟署長，我們接下來要一起努力。第一個，電競大賞的頒獎人是有吸毒的，當時體育署說，並沒有同意擔任指導單位，堅決反毒。當時我就拜託體育署，是不是可以幫我們建立一個不受歡迎名單？所謂不受歡迎名單，就是假設我陳培瑜曾經做過類似的事情，那我就不應該被邀請去當任何的評審委員或是主持人，甚至是頒獎人，因為那會給底下所有觀眾帶來非常錯誤的示範，所以我陳培瑜如果做過類似的事情，我就應該被體育署列在不受歡迎名單當中；可是體育署當時給我們的回復卻說，沒有相關法源、沒有辦法做。部長，你覺得這樣適合嗎？我剛剛說的這些霸凌、體罰、性騷、毒品的大人們，一再一再出現在所有孩子們的運動場合，他們當主持人也好、當評審也好、當教練也好、當各式各樣有權力、有資源的人也好，部長，你覺得這樣適合嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，儘管法令上沒有明文規範，但是就教育的觀點，我們其實對一些可能存有爭議的人，我想他仍不宜在許多公開場合及頒獎典禮裡面出現。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以部長你應該是認同我的說法……"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實我相信署長也認同，署長確實在過去這一段時間做了非常非常多努力，可是我必須要說，體育現場有很多過去遺留下來的，在父權體制底下，大家對於這些事情的不在意跟不重視，或者根本不覺得這是重要的事情，就像我剛剛說的霸凌、體罰、性騷、毒品這些事情，好像體育界的人對這些事情覺得理所當然，可是我們知道，絕對不是所有體育人都是這樣。","我再舉一個例子，6月4號在一個網路社群──靠北排球2.0裡面，他們指出有一個曾經性騷啦啦隊的一個……我都不想稱他為專業人士，結果沒有想到在這個月初，臺中辦理的連莊杯國際排球賽─體育署補助上百萬的比賽，這個人竟然再被找去現場當比賽主持人，又再一次發生這樣的狀況，因為沒有那個名單。在「零容忍」的每一個現場，不是教育部或是體育署第一時間就可以到達現場指導跟指揮，所以我們會一再一再的在網路上看到這些事情不斷發生。我們就來看網民怎麼評論這件事情，他們說：連莊杯找什麼噁男當主持人，有夠不舒服；這咖下去好嗎？找正派一點的來主持很難嗎？我覺得對部長和署長來說一定不難，可是為什麼我們屢屢在現場看到這樣的狀況？","再給部長看下一段影片，我個人非常震撼的這個影片，請部長先看一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你需要再看一次嗎？我們再看一次。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，您來自教育基層，您也當過大學校長，您覺得這一位教練在做什麼事情？它是一個曾經拿過冠軍的排球隊。部長，我幫你說好了啦，你可能不好說，那還是我直接問，你覺得他算不算是體罰球員？是不是師對生的霸凌現場？"],["鄭部長英耀：他確實有不當的一個指導行為。"],["陳委員培瑜：這樣的現場屢屢發生，可是我們看起來好像沒有辦法對他做什麼事情。這個影片還有觀眾在看臺上，這個影片已經在我們辦公室放很久，但是一直都沒有機會跟部長討論，從我剛剛所有的案例到接下來的案例，我要再一次強調，「零容忍」不要再只是口號，體育署之後要升格作為體育運動發展部，一旦到部的規格，如果我們沒有處理過去遺留下來的舊的、專制權威的體育文化，我們會遇到很大的困境，若升格之後，這些事情該怎麼辦，難道要請大家繼續容忍嗎？絕對不是這樣，我相信部長跟署長一定也認同。","監察院在108年對於青溪國中的一個教練提出糾正案，他的名字叫陳宗世，結果這個教練竟然在109年華麗轉身到大仁國中繼續當教練。為了要確保我質詢內容是正確的，我剛剛還去查，這個人到現在為止還繼續在大仁國中的現場擔任教練，部長，你覺得適合嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：抱歉。"],["陳委員培瑜：你覺得適合嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然不適合。"],["陳委員培瑜：不適合嘛！所以「零容忍」對不對？部長，我們一起努力好不好？","部長，我再跟你講最後一件事情，在體育文化裡面除了兒少的部分之外……謝謝主席，不好意思，我的問題快結束了。升格之路這件事情，我剛剛說要從組織文化改善，我們之前跟體育署問了，關於體育署發生中華奧會女性持刀自殘這件事情，我們請體育署協同勞動部去盤查相關的勞動環境，結果體育署跟我們回復說：有，有跟勞動部一起去了。可是我們就問，相關的會議資料呢？結果後來才發現，根本就沒有找勞動部一起去，也就是根本沒有發生這件事情，可是體育署給我們的回復卻是這樣。我要說，我覺得體育署不管在分工分組上，或者內部人員對於相關事情的意識，部長跟署長絕對不是每一件事情都可以控制得到的，一定有很多同仁的心態必須要積極改變，做出對於時代的應對。","最後我想要拜託部長，這件事情……怎麼這麼多案例？好，我直接來到結論好了，在組改的議題之前，我要拜託部長，對於體育文化、組織文化改造這件事情，以及體育的改革，國人期待真的非常非常高，每次只要我們辦公室講到跟體育運動有關的議題，就會有很多人再給我們更多的案例，其實我自己都做快要無力了，所以這部分真的要拜託部長跟署長。","接下來，體育行政是不是應該要有進步思維？關於兒少、人權、性平，這也是賴清德總統、民進黨執政黨自己最在意的進步價值，但我相信他們絕對不該只是口號，這個進步價值真的必須要積極落實在所有的組織文化當中。是不是可以拜託部長跟署長？關於相關的議題，我們之後一起努力。這件事情我就沒有辦法押時間，因為組織文化改造是非常非常困難的事情，但是我真的要拜託部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們會努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝司長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.59534375,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.98721875,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.51346875,"end":68.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.50971875,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.58409375000002,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.00909375,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.86346875,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.91596875000002,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.48534375000003,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.47784375000003,"end":280.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.94034375,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.92096875000004,"end":398.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.31034375,"end":399.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.81221875,"end":401.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.44909375000003,"end":406.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.10659375,"end":413.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.80159375000005,"end":415.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.25284375,"end":417.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.48034375000003,"end":420.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.97346875000005,"end":422.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.86784375,"end":460.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.26409375000003,"end":427.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.02221875000004,"end":464.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.12721875000005,"end":467.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.48096875000005,"end":476.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.08721875000003,"end":477.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.49221875,"end":477.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.71159375,"end":509.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.38159375000004,"end":533.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.20909375,"end":549.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.70034375,"end":566.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.8328437499999,"end":600.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.28409375,"end":567.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.1015937500001,"end":613.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.4328437500001,"end":648.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.59534375,"end":655.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.44721875,"end":658.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.2178437500002,"end":673.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.0815937500001,"end":677.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.89096875,"end":687.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.6028437500001,"end":689.4422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.0034687500001,"end":692.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.4965937500001,"end":708.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.9115937500001,"end":750.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.77409375,"end":754.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.8959687500001,"end":756.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":757.65096875,"end":758.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.50721875,"end":760.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.35096875,"end":760.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.4522187500002,"end":767.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.96159375,"end":772.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.9522187500002,"end":797.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":798.60659375,"end":872.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":867.7434687500001,"end":869.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.34659375,"end":869.8190937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.596,"end":10.677,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請鄭部長 謝謝好 鄭部長好 部長早安 我們來往下看關於這個霸凌的事情我們就只抓最近這一個禮拜的新聞光是這一個 過去這一個禮拜就有三起 至少三起那樣態我想前面已經有很多委員說就簡單的說有師生聯手霸凌學生師對生霸凌還有生對生霸凌"},{"start":36.041,"end":53.977,"text":"很多人很容易在網路上或是社群平台上或者是在很多學生的次元化團體的社群平台上看到這些訊息他不僅會有模仿效應他其實也會引起非常多家長的恐懼我要談的是這個困境當然我要非常感謝教育部在前一陣子公布了霸凌防制準則"},{"start":54.838,"end":82.078,"text":"光是在這件事情上我們知道教育部跟不同的委員還有跟不同的民間團體專家學者真的開了無數次的會我相信這個會最辛苦的學特司司長您一定非常清楚可是我們來到現場看到另外一個困境往下在霸凌防制準則裏面我們提到相關的委員會必須要過半數委員要從深對深的人才庫外聘或者是高中以下這個三聘解聘辦法裏面談到相關的調查委員的時候也要外聘"},{"start":83.018,"end":101.85,"text":"當時我覺得非常多委員都有強調這個事情是希望保持校內裡面不要產生師師相互或者是沒有相關專家學者進入這個調查當中可是在執行之後發生了一個很大的困境那我必須要說這個困境我自己先承認其實我也不知道會發生這個困境非常感謝"},{"start":103.272,"end":119.711,"text":"現場的校長、主任跟老師積極地告訴我們他們遇到什麼困境是費用的問題每一個外聘委員的費用還有寫調查報告的費用都必須由學校自行支付這個部分我不知道學特司司長我講的對不對"},{"start":120.96,"end":145.23,"text":"對,好,那當我們聽到這個消息之後我們最大的疑問是那錢從哪裡來?很多的校長直接告訴我們學校會有一部分的費用是支付在這裡的真的不夠的呢就是拜託家長會用家長募款的方法來指引這些費用那再不夠呢通常我們發現越小的學校或者是都會型的學校越多相關案件所以錢很不夠"},{"start":146.23,"end":158.597,"text":"這個很不夠的狀況我覺得已經造成學校的困擾了我要自己再度承認確實我們當時完全沒有想到這個事情那我很好奇目前學特司這邊或是教育部這邊怎麼因應這個費用的部分"},{"start":162.748,"end":181.986,"text":"一星平案調查為例第一次召開會議外聘委員出席一個人至少兩千五百塊受理後進行調查一個人再兩千五百塊這都只是一個人可是我剛剛說要兩個到三個或是過半數以上相關調查報告每一千個字1080元到了結案會議一個人又是兩千五百元"},{"start":183.026,"end":194.493,"text":"假設事件成立我們推斷到霸凌又產生了這麼多費用也就是每一個案子至少都是五千塊以上甚至是破萬甚至有一些案件因為家長的堅持他必須不斷不斷不斷召開相關的委員會來討論這個事情"},{"start":201.396,"end":220.161,"text":"所以所產生的費用我這裡寫的都還算稍微保留一些些但是我們真的很擔心目前這些費用我們到底要如何協助學校因為如果光是費用的部分就讓學校這麼頭痛更不要講這所有調查的程序跟中間所有老師家長還有行政員還有學生"},{"start":221.101,"end":223.722,"text":"謝謝委員的指正我們確實在這一個部分校外委員、調查委員外聘的這個費用除了地方政府上的協助我們大概現在每一案是給一萬到一萬五"},{"start":250.047,"end":271.115,"text":"每一個案子嗎?每一個城的案子嗎?有師對生的校園霸凌生對生那師對生這個部分是給一萬五因為他涉及到老師那生對生是我們給一萬除了地方政府的一個經費的支持以外協助地方的中小學那教育部在這個部分我們也提供經費的一個補助"},{"start":272.575,"end":279.782,"text":"所以目前你們聽到的縣市政府或者是地方學校給你們的回饋目前的費用都沒有問題可是跟我們聽到的感覺起來很大的落差因為我們這個就是如同委員所提的這個辦法我們才剛實施然後所以我們從5月也發現這個問題然後5月份才開始等於上個月開始我們才提供這樣一個經費補助"},{"start":299.219,"end":328.291,"text":"我相信因為接下來就要放暑假了可是是不是可以規劃一個時程表到底要怎麼收縣市政府教育局他們相關的意見跟費用還有當這些委員會一旦一旦不斷的開啟之後所有老師們如果要花費非常多力氣跟時間在這些事情上那影響到他們教學的狀況又會是如何因為已經有很多的文章跟投書直接告訴教育部告訴地方教育局請把老師還給我們做教學而不是做調查"},{"start":328.971,"end":347.821,"text":"其實之前在討論霸凌防制準則的時候我們就也一直拜託教育部必須要把教育的理念放進去所以我也要echo一下剛剛昭緯所提到的學輔法的部分為什麼要談到學輔法其實賴清德總統在選舉的時候單獨的寫出一個法關於學生的部分就非常的明確寫出推動學生輔導法修法"},{"start":348.621,"end":368.699,"text":"我相信這絕對不是天外飛來一筆我相信已經有很多的人意識到身心健康這件事情在中學、小學到高中其實已經有很大的困境當然我非常感謝教育部在上一個會期已經通過大學生從一筆一千二筆到一筆九百不修法直接給予費用但是我真的要拜託部長"},{"start":369.64,"end":394.927,"text":"小學、中學跟高中真的有很大的困境所以之前才會有學生主動跟賴清德總統提出說那個可以讓我們去看心理諮商的可不可以往下到國中因為之前只有18歲到35歲嘛所以我只是要告訴部長也告訴所有的行政長官你們必須要知道很多孩子自己已經有意識了那甚且他們的家長不見得支持如何把孩子的聲音提出來所以我想要再次拜託部長請問學生輔導法什麼時候會讓我們看見一線曙光"},{"start":402.89,"end":420.638,"text":"我們8月底就先安排行政院會處理那就送到立法院跟委員報告我們基本上現在這個努力安排在8月底之前能夠送到行政院為什麼朝偉突然好我們8月底之前送進立法院"},{"start":422.005,"end":425.248,"text":"老師們的痛苦其實也回應到家長在這件事情上的無力跟無能跟不知道該怎麼辦"},{"start":441.46,"end":467.361,"text":"那非常非常多的困境需要大家一起幫忙我們就先記得8月底以前但是相關我剛剛說那個費用的部分相關的規收集相關的資訊然後進一步的規劃報告有機會在三個月內給所有教育文化委員會的委員一份報告嗎關於我剛剛前一頁說的那個委員會調查費用的部分目前各縣市政府執行的狀況我們在9月9月底之前好9月底之前好不好謝謝部長好那我們下一個部分"},{"start":468.55,"end":495.327,"text":"林榮忍的部分其實一直是教育部談的林榮忍什麼呢?霸凌林榮忍、毒品林榮忍、性騷林榮忍、惡虐林榮忍部長您認同嗎?這我認同那部長您上任不久我想要快速跟你分享一下我們辦公室過去這一年多以來一直在關注所有在學校現場除了一般的教學現場之外在學校另外一個樣貌就是跟體育運動發展有關的樣態有非常多問題要拜託部長跟署長接下來我們一起努力喔好來第一個"},{"start":496.007,"end":496.047,"text":"﹑培瑜"},{"start":510.947,"end":512.728,"text":"但是體育署當時給我們的回覆卻說下一頁沒有相關法源沒有辦法做部長你覺得這樣適合嗎"},{"start":534.284,"end":543.529,"text":"有我剛剛說的霸凌、體罰、性騷、毒品的這些大人們一再一再出現在所有孩子們的運動場合當主持人也好當評審也好當教練也好當各式各樣的有權力有資源的人也好部長你覺得這樣適合嗎?"},{"start":549.733,"end":563.79,"text":"我想這個儘管法令上沒有這個明文的規範但是就教育的觀點我們其實對有一些有可能有存有爭議的我想他忍不宜在許多的公開場合頒獎的典禮裡邊的出現"},{"start":565.913,"end":585.943,"text":"所以部長你應該是認同我的說法其實我相信署長也認同署長確實在過去這一段時間做了非常非常多努力可是我必須要說體育現場有很多過去遺留下來這種父權體制底下大家對於這些事情的不在意跟不重視或者是根本不覺得這是重要的事情就是我剛剛說的霸凌、體罰、性騷、毒品這些事情"},{"start":586.263,"end":599.178,"text":"好像體育界的人對這些事情就覺得理所當然可是我們知道那絕對不是所有體育人都是這樣我再舉一個例子6月4號在一個網路社群叫靠北排球2.0裡面他們指出有一個曾經性騷啦啦隊的一個"},{"start":601.141,"end":622.603,"text":"我都不想叫他是一個什麼專業人士結果沒有想到他在這個月初台中辦理的聯裝盃國際排球賽是體育署補助上百萬這個人他竟然再被找去現場當比賽主持人又再一次發生這樣的狀況一樣沒有因為沒有那個名單所以零容忍的每一個現場不是教育部或是體育署第一時間可以到達現場"},{"start":623.644,"end":625.366,"text":"我個人非常震撼這個影片部長我們先看一下"},{"start":654.622,"end":658.184,"text":"部長需要再看一次嗎?我們再看一次嗎?部長您來自教育基層您也當過大學校長您覺得這位教練他在做什麼事情?他是一個曾經拿過冠軍的排球隊"},{"start":679.909,"end":708.28,"text":"部長我幫你說好了啦你可能不好說你覺得那還是我直接問你覺得他算不算是一種體罰球員霸凌現場施對身霸凌他確實有一個不當的一個指導的一個行為出現這樣的現場就是我說的屢屢發生可是我們看起來好像沒有辦法對他做什麼事情這個影片還是有觀眾在看台上這個影片我們已經在我們辦公室放很久但是一直都沒有機會跟部長您討論從我剛剛所有的案例到下面一個再來一個"},{"start":709.946,"end":736.346,"text":"李歐仁我要再一次強調不要再只是口號因為體育署之後要升格作為體育運動發展部一旦到部的規格如果我們沒有處理過去遺留下來的舊的專制權威的體育文化我們會遇到很大的困境升格之後這些事情該怎麼辦難道要請大家繼續容忍嗎?絕對不是這樣我相信部長跟署長一定也認同監察院在108年對於清溪國中一個教練提出糾正案他的名字叫陳世忠"},{"start":737.126,"end":737.587,"text":"部長,你覺得適合嗎?抱歉"},{"start":757.677,"end":772.045,"text":"您覺得適合嗎?當然不適合。不適合嗎?所以零容忍嘛,對不對,部長?是。好,那我們一起努力好不好,部長。我們再跟你講最後一件事情。在體育文化裡面除了兒少的部分之外,謝謝主席,不好意思,我快結束了,下一張。"},{"start":774.028,"end":797.489,"text":"深隔之路這件事情我剛剛說要從組織文化改善我們之前跟體育署問了關於體育署在那個發生中華奧會女性遲到自殘這件事情我們請體育署協同勞動部去盤查相關的勞動環境結果體育署給我們的回覆說有跟勞動部一起去了可是我們就問那相關的會議資料往下結果後來才發現說根本就沒有找勞動部一起去"},{"start":798.669,"end":800.57,"text":"最後我想要拜託部長這件事情再下一張怎麼這麼多案例這樣好我們直接來到結論好了"},{"start":823.837,"end":842.773,"text":"在主改的議題之前我要拜託部長對於體育文化、組織文化改造這件事情體育的改革國人期待真的非常非常非常高只要我們每次辦公室講到跟體育運動有關的議題就會很多人再給我們更多的案例其實我自己都做到快要無力了這樣齁所以這個部分真的要拜託部長跟署長"},{"start":843.413,"end":869.148,"text":"接下來體育行政是不是應該有進步思維關於兒少人權性品這也是賴清德總統也是民進黨執政黨自己最在意的進步價值但是我相信他絕對不該只是口號這個進步價值真的必須要積極落實在所有的組織文化當中是不是可以拜託部長跟署長我們之後一起努力關於相關的議題這件事情我就沒有辦法壓時間因為組織文化改造是非常非常困難的事情但是我真的要拜託部長好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝司長 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153819","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81956414d2f02c2cd0459a48fe1a1d57c38a04e565a7cce14efbc170b242c5881665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:04:25 - 10:18:45","影片長度":"00:14:20","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:04:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:18:45+08:00","duration":860,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":283,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國安局蔡局長、NCC副主委，還有中華電信林副總。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝局長。我想先請教一下中華電信林副總，剛剛有委員特別詢問到，是方是中華電信的子公司，那它的機房裡面存在什麼樣的資料？你說它跟中華電信不一樣，也不會直接交付給它、中華電信不會交付給它，可是是方電訊可以蒐集到什麼樣的資料？以它自己子公司的機房裡面？"],["林副總經理文智：是方公司的業務大概也……因為它是獨立公司，不過如果就IDC……"],["馬委員文君：它是中華電信的子公司嘛？"],["林副總經理文智：但是它是獨立營運的公司，就IDC業務而言，IDC業務基本上都是企業客戶在申請，所以企業客戶把主機放在IDC機房裡面，這些……"],["馬委員文君：有沒有可能有其他的？"],["林副總經理文智：基本上不會，因為這些資料應該都是屬於……"],["馬委員文君：都是企業的嗎？他們只負責企業的嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：會使用IDC機房服務的基本上都會是企業。"],["馬委員文君：其他的呢？其他的可能性還有什麼？因為是你們的子公司啊，照理說你們非常清楚，除了企業以外還有什麼？"],["林副總經理文智：基本上IDC業務應該都是企業營運才會……"],["馬委員文君：都是企業營運的？"],["林副總經理文智：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以如果是有企業請託，它們也可以協助一些資料的蒐整，是嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，企業在IDC裡面的營運，不管是主機代管，還是公司營運的相關需要，這些資料基本上還是屬於這個企業所有，並不屬於我們這個IDC……"],["馬委員文君：但是在它的機房裡面會有嘛，因為你的資料儲存就是在機房裡面嘛，包括一些辦理活動的公司或者相關的企業，它們有些相關的資料也會在裡面，包括我們所有以前的企業，比如說大家去健身房，其實裡面有很多的資料，不管是年齡、性別、住址、郵件地址、網址等等，其實都會有，是這樣子嘛，對不對？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，那個……"],["馬委員文君：我現在要特別詢問的是，既然它是中華電信的子公司，剛剛NCC說他們都會對於三大電信業者，尤其在出事以後都有把它們找來，那我想請問一下，對於子公司或孫公司呢？NCC回答一下，好不好？除了三大電信業者，那對於像剛剛講的……"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：委員好。因為剛才徐巧芯委員有問到這件事情，是方也是電信事業，我們就具體的事證也會來瞭解。"],["馬委員文君：目前有嗎？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：我們回去以後馬上會……"],["馬委員文君：目前還沒有，是嗎？所以你們在處理這個事情？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對，我們優先針對三大電信事業，今天有具體的一些資料之後，我們回去也會對是方電訊進行瞭解。","另外補充，是方電訊是一個IDC機房，這個業務是一個空間，至於企業客戶本身的資料還是企業客戶所有。"],["馬委員文君：你們在還沒有查察之前不需要多做說明，因為剛剛副主委也提到，你根本就還沒有跟他們討論過！可是既然有這樣子，包括剛剛講出來的子公司跟孫公司是可以擁有客戶的這些相關資料，所以對於它的管理除了這樣子，回去以後你才要找他們嘛。","另外，對於這些電信公司的機房，NCC有沒有定期檢查？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：按照個資法第二十二條，NCC每年都要去檢查，最近剛好去檢查、剛好完成了一個行政檢查。"],["馬委員文君：都沒有問題？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：就個資跟資安的部分我們都有去檢查，當然會有一些缺失，它對一些個資的內用或外用當然有一些行政缺失，我們也要求它要……"],["馬委員文君：所謂的行政缺失大概是什麼樣態？沒關係，沒有很多時間，你把你們……最近才去查察嘛，是針對三大電信公司還是包括所有其他的？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：對，我們先針對的是三大。"],["馬委員文君：所以現在如果有可能發生，因為三大電信公司本身規模很大，然後受制於很多法律規範，其實它們反而有很多事情不會做或不敢做，或者會依據一些法律的相關制約；但如果是子公司跟孫公司就不一樣囉。","所以就這些部分，過去其實都很喜歡去衍生很多問題，局長也在這裡，像很多事件發生的時候，很喜歡做推敲或者去延伸，可是這個已經事實存在，而且在電視公然、王義川已經公然說出來。我們也擔心像這樣子，比如說在集會的活動場域裡面，其實有很明顯的人民政治傾向，今天如果在我們國內可以掌握政治傾向，可是當對岸如果掌握這樣子的政治傾向的時候，對人民會有什麼樣的危害？比如說你去香港、澳門，甚至去中國大陸會有什麼樣的影響？這些都再再顯示我們國安的一個漏洞，不是只有三大電信業者，你的子公司、孫公司要怎麼管理？這部分我們希望很快地針對可能的後續作為，NCC、中華電信還有國安單位把這些相關作法提供給我們委員會還有所有的委員，好不好？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：是。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們也擔心它的資料……"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：針對一定規模的電信事業，我們對個資、資安這部分會來瞭解、會去檢查。"],["馬委員文君：除了瞭解跟檢查以外，我們希望有具體的作為，因為我們也擔心除了給王義川以外，因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做？有可能啊！不是只針對哪些特定人士而已，它可以給王義川，它是不是也可以給中共的國安部？甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上！所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["馬委員文君：兩位請回。我接下來再請教一下局長，我們看到有相關的人士從淡水河口直接上岸，其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安問題，我們現在要說的這個破口，最重要的是，它是一個非常大的破口！我們一直講說它是灰色地帶，然後一直把它導向說，我們還有哪一個設備不足、我們還需要買什麼東西。包括像過去一直發生的無人機侵擾事件，無人機我們不是沒有投錢，這已經超過十幾年以上，我們投入了超過百億以上的預算，有關研發無人機、做無人機相關的，不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等，其實我們都有做，可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆無人機過來卻一點辦法都沒有！","到現在還是，現在我們看到這一個是很大的國安破口，不是只有講講一個灰色地帶而已，我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸！110年臺中也上來過一個啊，那時候也是他自己報案說他很冷，大家不知道有沒有印象？結果他去報案的時候，也是我們的民眾才去報案的、才把他帶走，110年就發生了。","可是現在這一次發生的更嚴重，比如說他曾經有解放軍的背景，而且他是自己上岸、自己找人打電話，以海軍的任務來說，其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功，因為他所有的作戰參數都已經取得了，包括當時的海象、他的油料、他的時間、他的路程，他可以自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經流過一遍，他的資料也已經刪除，針對一個任務來說，他已經完全成功。這不是灰色地帶，而且也不是懲處這麼簡單，上一次可以在臺中、這一次在我們臺北，下一次可能就在臺南、高雄，這些作戰參數由一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握，我們的國安破口非常嚴重！局長怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於這個個案委員剛剛所指導的，我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步做一些澄清跟進一步的瞭解。就國安局這邊來講，我們會特別關注的是該員自述有解放軍的背景，這部分再結合到他這次是直接用小艇來到我們的淡水漁港，所以我們會瞭解到他的相關動機以及相關路徑，委員剛剛所提到的是路徑的查證，那這部分我們會再配合海巡署調查的結果來做後續的，包括涉及中國大陸他的身分跟動機的釐清。"],["馬委員文君：局長，因為近期已經發生非常多國安相關的事件，我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決，或是等著其他的調查結果或者等司法的判決結果，其實這在在都沒有辦法改變我們國安現在發生這麼大的破口。因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了，可是這個事件引發我們必須去非常重視的是，他自述說他有解放軍的背景，我剛剛提到的，他所有的作戰參數，而且他是成功了，到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船接駁轉乘過來的，還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來，到現在還沒有辦法掌握，如果他是大船接駁，那還有一個問題，就是我們的雷達怎麼了？因為不管是國防部或海巡，其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關雷達的監控，可是如果是大船，我們居然沒有注意到，今天如果是一個快艇，雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚地掌握，可是海巡6浬他都已經發現目標。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["馬委員文君：依照經驗法則，他判斷是漁船，如果在海上有一個不明的目標，這在我們國軍來說它是一個黃色目標，其實黃色目標是最危險的，因為他不知道是敵是友，他不知道這到底是敵艦還是友艦，它反而是更危險的，可是我們居然沒有任何的作為，我們不是只要買裝備而已，今天雷達有可能因為霧太濃，可能也沒有辦法分析得很好，今天如果我們用熱顯像，他有可能用其他冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝，其實都可以達到，最重要的是人，我們現在發生的就是這樣，你一而再、再而三不斷地發生，包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音，或者可以跟對岸女子交往，可是都沒有後續的結果，這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響，反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情，已經發生的，我們到底做了什麼？局長請你簡要地說明一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：關於這個案子，委員剛剛有提出一些重點，第一個部分是在雷情的掌握上有沒有問題，我剛剛有跟其他委員說明，能夠在6浬外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇，雷達的效能已經算是不錯：第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辨證的機制；第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報；再來第四個是在岸際相關的監測設施；第五個是委員所提到的，相關的人員訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報。我想這幾天在進行的檢討作業有可以再精進的作為大概有以上這幾點。"],["馬委員文君：局長，這個精進作為已經講很久了，從我上一次的無人機還有更早之前，雖然110年臺中發生事情時，那時候你不是局長，可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多，你如果說雷達都可以發現這樣子的一個……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，有抓到。"],["馬委員文君：雷達很不錯，那更糟！如果你雷達都抓到了，結果我們還讓他這麼安安全全的，然後像完全沒事的人一樣可以上岸，這樣更糟！我們花了那麼多錢，到底為了什麼？這必須要給國人一個交代。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們到現在國安的破口，剛剛我提到的那幾件，其實都沒有一件有具體的作為或調查的結果，這個部分請國安局可以做一個具體的、相關的瞭解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣，應該提供給委員會或者讓我們相關的國人很清楚地知道，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同……"],["馬委員文君：除了海巡以外，我剛剛提到很多事喔！這些部分我們希望都可以具體地把一些相關的進度讓國人很清楚地、在國人面前把它攤開，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，特別是作業程序還有橫向聯繫的協調，這部分我們來跟海巡再密切……"],["馬委員文君：那都是書面啦！我們要具體的作為，一而再、再而三，我們從來沒有抓到過一個，也沒有成功地去攔截或者事先防範，這個部分才是我們最擔憂的，我們希望這個部分可以有一個具體的作法，我們要的是這個，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：不要再發生，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會努力。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長。接下來請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.20659375,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.079718750000001,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.91409375,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.38221875,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.37659375,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.02346875,"end":52.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.20909375,"end":48.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.377218750000004,"end":59.954093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.61659375000001,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.40534375,"end":75.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.68346875,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.54659375,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.46596875,"end":81.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.43596875,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.29159375,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.30409375,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.40846875000001,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.58096875000001,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.45409375000001,"end":107.82846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.27159375000001,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.71596875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.79534375,"end":131.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.50721875000002,"end":138.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.02409375000002,"end":152.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.14221875,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.26034375,"end":152.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.96909375,"end":153.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.67784375000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.63971875000001,"end":173.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.85159375,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.67846875,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.78221875,"end":188.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.95471875,"end":195.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.49221875,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.68971875000003,"end":239.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.05221875,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.01409375,"end":216.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.36909375000002,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.99221875,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.86971875,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.50909375000003,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.02346875,"end":264.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.07409375000003,"end":273.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.15846875,"end":264.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.35596875000005,"end":270.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.81971875,"end":272.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.49034375,"end":275.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.90346875,"end":363.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.85596875000005,"end":364.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.66596875000005,"end":367.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.04971875,"end":373.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.28909375,"end":378.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.95909375,"end":404.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.61471875,"end":396.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.81159375000004,"end":405.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.26284375,"end":407.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.46471875000003,"end":415.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.41721875,"end":425.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.43284375,"end":428.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.28034375000004,"end":440.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.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tart":373.368,"end":394.839,"text":"除了了解跟檢查以外我們希望有具體的作為因為我們也擔心除了給王逸川以外因為民間的公司為了利益什麼不敢做有可能啊不是只針對哪些特定人士而已他可以給王逸川他是不是也可以給中共的國安部甚至也會放在習近平的桌子上所以這個部分我們希望可以徹查清楚"},{"start":395.379,"end":406.732,"text":"好兩位請回我們接下來再請教一下局長針對我們今天有所謂的一個就是我們看到有相關的那個人士從"},{"start":417.489,"end":439.841,"text":"我們的淡水河口其實直接上岸其實這是非常嚴重的一個國安的問題我們現在要說的這個破口最重要的是他是一個非常大的破口我們一直講說他是灰色地帶然後一直把它導向說我們還有哪一個設備不足我們還有需要買什麼東西包括像過去"},{"start":440.882,"end":466.472,"text":"一直發生的無人機侵擾的事件無人機我們不是沒有投錢我們已經超過十幾年以上我們投入了超過百億以上的預算其實在研發無人機在做無人機相關的不管是反制作為或無人機的研發等等其實我們都有做可是我們居然連最基本的一個大疆的無人機過來了我們一點辦法都沒有到現在還是"},{"start":468.349,"end":496.599,"text":"現在我們看到這一個他是一個很大的國安破口不是只是講講一個灰色地帶而已我們灰色地帶不是現在才發生欸110年台中也上來過一個啊那時候也是他自己報案他說他很冷他不知道有沒有印象結果他去報案的時候也是我們的民眾才去報案的才把他帶走110年就發生了可是我們現在這一次發生的更嚴重"},{"start":498.476,"end":526.897,"text":"比如說他曾經是有解放軍的背景而且他是自己上岸自己找人打電話以海軍的任務來說其實他這個作戰任務已經完全成功因為他所有的作戰參數他都已經取得了包括海象以當時的海象包括他的油料包括他的時間包括他的路程他可以"},{"start":527.637,"end":555.171,"text":"自己上岸而且他把整個過程都已經留過一遍他的資料已經刪除這針對一個任務來說他是已經完全成功這不是灰色地帶而且也不是懲處這樣這麼簡單上一次可以在台中這一次可以在我們台北下一次可能就在台南高雄這些作戰參數一個解放軍背景的人就已經可以完全掌握我們的國安破口非常嚴重 局長怎麼看"},{"start":556.831,"end":579.84,"text":"對,這個個案委員剛剛所指導的我想海巡署在這幾天的調查報告當中也都有進一步的去做一些澄清跟進一步的了解那就管局這邊來講我們會特別關注的是該員他有自述有解放軍的背景那這部分再結合到他這一次是用小艇來直接到我們的淡水漁港所以我們會了解到他的相關的動機以及相關的路徑委員剛剛所提到的是"},{"start":580.481,"end":590.583,"text":"這部分我們會再配合到海巡所調查的結果來做後續的包括是涉及中國大陸他的身份跟動機的底情"},{"start":592.685,"end":609.175,"text":"區長因為我們在近期已經發生非常多的國安相關的事件我想其實不是只有四張報告把它解決或者我們是等著其他的一個調查的結果或者等司法的判決結果其實這再再都沒有辦法改變我們現在發生的國安的這麼大的破口因為剛剛海巡說他們雖然懲處了可是這個事件"},{"start":618.186,"end":641.366,"text":"引發我們必須去非常重視的是其實他是自述說他有解放軍的背景我剛剛提到的他所有的作戰參數而且他是成功了到現在我們還不知道他到底是從大船去接駁轉程過來的還是他自己就一艘快艇直接過來到現在還沒有辦法掌握如果他是大船接駁那還有一個問題就是我們的雷達怎麼了"},{"start":644.449,"end":661.782,"text":"因為我們不管是國防部或海巡其實我們都花了非常多的預算建置這些相關的雷達的監控可是如果是大船我們居然沒有注意到那今天如果是一個快艇雷達雖然沒有辦法很清楚的掌握可是海巡6海里它都已經發現目標"},{"start":663.844,"end":679.356,"text":"依照經驗法則他判斷是漁船這個如果在海上有一個不明的目標這個在我們國軍來說他是一個黃色目標其實黃色目標是最危險的因為他不知道是底是有他不知道這到底是底艦還是有艦"},{"start":682.338,"end":682.538,"text":"今天如果說我們熱選項"},{"start":698.601,"end":706.867,"text":"他有可能用其他的冷卻的一些裝置來偽裝其實都可以達到最重要的是人我們現在發生的就是這樣你一而再再而三不斷的發生還包括我們可以跟政府高層錄音或者可以跟對岸女子可以交往可是都沒有後續的結果這對我們國安其實也產生很大的影響反而一直在追究沒有發生的事情已經發生的我們到底做了什麼局長你簡要的說明一下"},{"start":726.903,"end":743.559,"text":"我想這案子委員剛剛有提出一些重點第一個部分是在雷霆的掌握上有沒有問題那我剛剛有跟其他委員說明到能夠在六海里外掌握到這一艘7公尺的小艇已經算雷達的效能不錯第二個是在於有沒有空中的監視或辯證的機制那第三個是在於橫向的聯繫跟通報"},{"start":744.58,"end":759.657,"text":"第4個是在岸際的相關的監測的設施第5個是委員所提到的相關的人員的訓練有沒有精實可以來做現場的判斷跟通報我想大概這幾天在進行的一個檢討的作業有可以再進行的作為大概有以上這幾點"},{"start":761.19,"end":778.77,"text":"局長這個精進的作為已經講很久了就我從上一次的無人機還有更早之前算110年臺中發生的事情那時候你不是局長可是我們剛剛講的在近期也發生非常多你如果說雷打都可以發現這樣子的一個有抓到雷打很不錯那更糟"},{"start":779.611,"end":800.3,"text":"如果你雷達都抓到了結果我們人還讓他這麼安安全全的然後完全像沒事的人一樣就可以上岸這樣更糟我們花了那麼多錢到底為了什麼這必須要跟國人一個交代我們到現在國安的破口剛剛我提到的那幾件其實都沒有一件可以有具體的作為或調查的結果這個部分請國安局可以做具體的"},{"start":804.782,"end":824.692,"text":"一個相關的了解或者至少現在的進度怎麼樣應該提供給委員會或者我們相關的國人很清楚的知道好不好對我們會再跟海巡這邊來協同除了海巡以外我剛剛提到很多事喔這些部分我們希望都可以具體的把一些相關的進度把它讓國人很清楚的在國人面前把它攤開"},{"start":828.214,"end":828.394,"text":"謝謝馬委員、謝謝局長"},{"start":857.458,"end":858.868,"text":"我們下面請沈博洋委員"}]}},{"id":"153818","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153818","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819d0c3d9e205feffba182e407f268492bca04e565a7cce14ef8d3a92de4e1420655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:04:34 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這個局長你回答我是沒有你看可能是他認為你們查不出來他還可以再掛疑一個就是說前兆豐總經理"},{"start":478.886,"end":494.033,"text":"蔡永毅他還可以掛一個資深合夥人啊掛一個就是這個蔡永毅他在掏空的嫌疑人邱冠興就是他的盛景公司他還可以掛一個資深的合理人顯然就是他認為你們抓不到嘛"},{"start":494.733,"end":511.474,"text":"那抓不到為什麼會有這麼大的一個弊案啊那相對的好局長我再請問你就是對於租賃公司這一個無牌的高利貸的這個租賃公司那銀行能不能逐筆去檢查啊你有追嗎這個案子你有追嗎"},{"start":513.337,"end":535.024,"text":"請說明報告委員分成兩個部分就剛剛委員關心的那個部分基本上還是銀行的放貸所以不是租賃公司但如果回到租賃公司的話那個是不是有你是一直在強調就是說他拿著合法的銀行的錢然後去做"},{"start":536.124,"end":550.149,"text":"超高利的高利貸超過22倍那你有沒有足比去檢查顯然到這個時候我已經問了好幾次了你們也沒有辦法正向的在回答我好 局長你的人夠不夠呢"},{"start":551.69,"end":568.898,"text":"你的銀行的內控的一個機制裡頭又要灌金融詐騙又要灌這個融資租賃又要灌洗錢防制又要灌貸錢貸後那到底你的錢那個你的人夠不夠你的人到底夠不夠"},{"start":570.069,"end":594.903,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員關心確實是後來必須要規範或者是要管理的範圍確實擴大不過這個部分的話其實行政院也在關心這件事情所以在緣額增加上面也請我們再考慮增加緣額要增加多少這個我想在這裡跟金管會主委做一個這個探討啦美國年準會它"},{"start":595.643,"end":615.195,"text":"有2.4萬人他處理3.3億人的人跟事跟物他的貨幣他的貸款可是相對的我們央行裡頭有866個人銀行局才212個人那如果照這個數字來算的話我想這個銀行局也應該要有1600個人"},{"start":616.656,"end":625.773,"text":"所以銀行局的人太少了嘛那你太少了你還要他去管這麼多的事情那當然是成效一定不好的啊那你怎麼改進呢"},{"start":626.674,"end":654.936,"text":"這個我們當然謝謝委員的關心這個確實是應該是大部分公務機關面臨到的問題特別是金管會其實蠻嚴重因為社會對金管會有很多肯定也期待希望我們把很多新興的行業納管當然是期待啊因為我們的錢會被騙啊那你的人不夠啊你怎麼去管控他啦你獅子銀行的問題沒有辦法解決的時候你還要再處理你的虛擬資產你有那麼大的一個能量嗎"},{"start":656.509,"end":676.524,"text":"現在確實我們現在人力上是非常吃緊不過即便在這樣的情況之下我們要繼續被騙沒有沒有我們還是會持續的努力但是我們也希望說未來能夠爭取我跟你講它在未來虛擬貨幣這一個專法那個通過的時候他們會做了很多很多的一個宣傳這是政府認定的喔這是國家認定的喔你們的錢我們這裡賭注沒問題喔"},{"start":679.757,"end":683.221,"text":"對 這個市場行為的監控我們一定會加強我們就要努力了"}]}},{"id":"153817","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153817","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81988d2519d09eff3bf0fec08313b105ec0a04e565a7cce14efa8368258a6bc0b115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:02:47 - 10:14:03","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T10:02:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:14:03+08:00","duration":676,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時2分）謝謝召委，請郭部長。"],["主席：我們請郭部長。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，在近期以來輝達的旋風席捲全臺，尤其是輝達執行長黃仁勳也特別表示說，臺灣是AI跟半導體產業非常重要的國家，未來會在臺灣設立第二研發中心跟總部，可見得全球科技產業鏈通通會來臺灣投資，但是黃仁勳臨走的時候特別擔憂，也警示我們說臺灣電力、配電要充足，產業才能來投資，才不會影響到全球整個AI的發展，可是早上我們看到一個新聞，就是美國智庫說臺灣的電力短缺，部長早上的報告裡面也說臺灣的電力是不會缺電的，這樣子的話，那就表示美國智庫在造謠？你要不要抗議？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想美國智庫只是新聞的說明，它是說如果臺灣電力短缺會造成世界經濟的影響，並沒有說臺灣電力是短缺的。"],["呂委員玉玲：它指名是臺灣電力短缺喔。"],["郭部長智輝：他只是假設性的。"],["呂委員玉玲：假設性的，所以你對於我們臺灣的電力是有信心，我們不缺電？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：那些跳電、停電都是動物惹的禍？"],["郭部長智輝：目前來講的話，妥善率其實是有一些不足。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為AI產業，你要拿獲全球的訂單必須要是綠電，2026年要達到20%再生能源的綠電，2030年要達到30%，你一直說有信心，除了用光電，還有我們的離岸風電外，你還有什麼方式可以達成你的信心呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在朝著這兩個方面在努力啦！跟委員報告，目前我們有一些新的科技進來，包括地熱、氫能，這些都是我們在考慮的部分。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，部長，本席會這麼講的原因就是因為我們再生能源的離岸風電，我們目前是採取示範獎勵、潛力場址以及區塊開發，已經進入第三階段了，而第二期的選商部分，在6月底以前就要把廠商選出來，能不能完成？為什麼會這樣子問？因為第一期的區塊開發就已經延期了，都已經delay了，在2026年跟2027年你們的併網發電要做到，現在連選商都還沒有完成的話，那會不會第二期也會無限延期下去？這樣就讓你們的離岸風電不能完成了。"],["郭部長智輝：之前會有點延遲，主要是因為世界上的環境影響，歐洲也一直在朝風力發電，所以它有一些船的問題而沒有辦法來到亞洲。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，因為你們第一期延期，成本就提高了，第二期如果再延期的話，成本又會提高，你要怎麼提升，讓產業能夠繼續來臺灣開發？你們的電力要非常非常地充足，他們才能夠成本穩定，也才會有競爭力啊，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是，讓廠商有競爭力，我們會把電價部分做充分的考量。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為你規劃2030年的整個離岸風電總發電量要達到13.1GW，這部分能不能完成？"],["郭部長智輝：以目前的進度，我會督促我們的團隊照表，先把13.1GW這樣的一個目標訂定出來，然後我們逐年、逐月去檢討，檢視過去為什麼會慢，把這個慢的因素拿掉，並且全力去衝刺。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，你要全力衝刺，我希望你們能如期併網發電，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：再來，經濟部撤銷了桃園市府終止3家SRF廠商入駐桃科的處分，請問部長，是你拍板決定的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個不是我拍板決定的……"],["呂委員玉玲：是誰決定的？"],["郭部長智輝：這是由一個審議委員會開會決定的，他們有11位專家學者。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你們中央一直說尊重地方，地方有自主的裁決權，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以地方做出了決定，要終止它入園，你們到了接受訴願的時候又廢止了這個處分，這樣子你們有尊重到地方嗎？你們在決定這件事情之前，有沒有跟地方去做溝通？"],["郭部長智輝：我們是從法律面去看這件事情，因為入園許可是地方政府的……"],["呂委員玉玲：是地方政府決定的，終止它入園啦！因為考量民眾會受空污的影響，會讓大家的健康堪慮，所以終止了，因此你們就要尊重地方啊！你們為什麼要「橫柴入灶」，一定要這樣做呢？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們沒有這個決定權啦！我們只有建議權。"],["呂委員玉玲：那是地方自己決定的嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：所以當時部長來我辦公室的時候，我跟你說明得很清楚，因此我相信這件事情你應該是很瞭解的，在王前部長的時候，專案會議、專案許可要讓它進來就是推薦函，結果地方反彈的時候，他說這個只是表述而已，沒有法律效力而收回，兩度收回，去年的11月、12月兩度收回這個推薦函，你們又一直表示說尊重地方政府，而地方政府做出了決定，你又撤銷了它的處分。"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有撤銷它的處分啊！這個是……"],["呂委員玉玲：你現在是撤銷啊！要繼續讓它進來啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，先來訴願，然後這個是訴願會，我們召集專家學者就其內容來做出這樣的一個決定，這裡面有11位委員，有9位是大學教授及法學專家，他們是一致做出這個決定，不是經濟部可以決定的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這個決定權不在地方政府了嘛！中央說要尊重地方，地方做了決定，中央又撤銷了這個處分啊！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們是讓這個訴願委員會來做決定，不是我們經濟部做決定。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我們希望我們的政府既然尊重地方，就要看到地方的民意，地方重視他們的健康，你們就不要當作沒看到，不顧民意、不顧民眾的健康，到時候我們會努力地來跟你們抗爭。你知道嗎？觀音桃科，3家是固體再生燃料的發電廠，發電廠的廢氣有多大你應該都知道吧！但環境部自己不去修法，排放量的標準不去修法，認為很困難，結果就大開後門，然後大開綠燈讓他們進來，每一次都在專案的，我們桃園去年就已經反對了，在鄭前市長的時候就已經反對了，你們用專案要讓它入園，結果後來又說選舉期間到了要尊重地方，他們自己決定，沒有法律效力，地方做出決定之後，你們又說專家委員大家決定的，要撤銷他們的處分，都跟你們沒關係，甩鍋給地方嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部本來就不是對工業區有主管的權力。"],["呂委員玉玲：這是經濟部你們的專案會議耶！部長，王美花部長就開了這個專案會議，你們能源局給他們同意這個設備的文件，這都是你們整個發下來的，不是跟經濟部沒有關係啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在這個問題已經是實際上存在的，我現在跟桃園市政府也都在協商如何處理這個問題，那麼因為現在環境部有提出它的態度，就是入園許可必須用歐盟的標準，也就是……"],["呂委員玉玲：那你們修法啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們要來……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們就去修法啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們要討論這個事情，要很快的……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們修的法，我們會依法去嚴格審查其標準，多少面積有多少的排放，就是固定的啊，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的、是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以在這之前你們就要尊重地方。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是尊重地方才會進行到這樣子。"],["呂委員玉玲：你說這個決定權在於地方啊，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！因為現在桃園市政府要求我們要給一個國際的定位跟管理的辦法，所以我們現在提出一個新的定位，就是……"],["呂委員玉玲：在你們還沒有決定下來，我不曉得這一再地被撤回、一再地禁止入園，一而再，再而三，從前朝的經濟部到現在的經濟部，不曉得後面有什麼龐大的勢力還是有什麼利益，你們一定要幫他們開綠燈，一定要讓他們進來？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是完全沒有的事情……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長……"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就是趕快來解決這個問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：我必須要說，我們共同都有討論到，臺灣電力是要穩定供電，不論是我們整個產業、AI或半導體等等，我們要穩定供電，所以我們才講說現在電力真的是不足，連國際的美國智庫都這麼說了，因此我們要努力，尤其是綠電的問題。但是部長，當時我們討論的時候，我們要讓電力穩定就必須要把核能列入考量，做基載的用電才能夠穩定，結果你現在被民進黨的高層校正回歸一下，你回來就說非核家園還是最終的目標。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是依法啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：依法？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是電力不穩定的話，我們臺灣怎麼發展？我們的AI怎麼發展？全球的產業鏈要怎麼來投資呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們會努力，因為現在發電的方法還是有很多。"],["呂委員玉玲：不要因為沒有辦法拿到綠電，就要讓3個廢棄物的發電廠在觀音桃科這邊，危害我們鄉親的健康，部長，請你們要尊重民意，也尊重地方政府，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","蔡易餘","羅智強","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教\n育部首長就「為掌握生成式 AI 等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化 AI 生態系及充\n實 AI 人才與產業 AI 化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用 AI 賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.324718750000002,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.805343750000002,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.43721875,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.871593750000002,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.90096875,"end":62.907218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.36284375,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.87534375,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.97659375,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.22721875,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.78409375000001,"end":94.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.96971875000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":104.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.97659375,"end":107.40659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.81159375,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.35284375,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.97721875000002,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.03034375000001,"end":149.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.54346875000002,"end":152.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.54721875,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.72409375,"end":189.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.92534375000002,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.03221875000003,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.81909375,"end":222.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.17284375000003,"end":226.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.96596875,"end":232.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.80034375000002,"end":241.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.17471875,"end":242.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.86221875,"end":243.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.26721875,"end":244.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.27971875000003,"end":246.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.60409375,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.03096875,"end":292.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.55909375000005,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.87534375,"end":294.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.81596875,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.73909375,"end":302.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.51534375,"end":303.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.57846875,"end":319.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.94096875,"end":306.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.75471875,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.52096875,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.34784375000004,"end":322.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.22096875,"end":329.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.38034375,"end":329.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.39721875000004,"end":329.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.57846875,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.96659375,"end":337.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.41284375000004,"end":337.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.69971875000005,"end":341.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.47971875,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.12909375000004,"end":348.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.78659375,"end":350.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.98034375000003,"end":352.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.97159375,"end":358.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.32096875,"end":360.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.62471875,"end":360.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.95346875,"end":387.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.12221875,"end":392.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.67409375,"end":395.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.69909375000003,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.96909375,"end":410.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.38659375000003,"end":399.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.66721875,"end":418.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.02471875000003,"end":420.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.34909375,"end":425.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.77471875000003,"end":430.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.42346875000004,"end":431.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.44034375,"end":431.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.77784375000005,"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是不是是 讓這個廠商有競爭力我們會把這個電價的部分做充分的考量"},{"start":233.851,"end":235.393,"text":"因為你規劃說2030年我們整個離岸風電它的這整個總發電量要達到13.1GW13.1GW能不能完成"},{"start":247.642,"end":276.26,"text":"我想以目前的這個進度我會督促我們的這個團隊照表就先把這個計畫13.6G的這樣的一個目標訂出來然後我們逐年逐月去檢討然後過去為什麼會慢把這個慢的因素拿掉然後這個全力去充斥是你要全力充斥我希望你能如期並往發電好不好是再來部長請教一下"},{"start":278.081,"end":294.731,"text":"經濟部撤銷了桃園市市府終止三家SRF入住桃科的處分請問部長是你拍板決定的嗎?這個不是我拍板決定這個是有一個審議委員會有11位專家學者然後他們開會決定的"},{"start":301.789,"end":329.262,"text":"部長在你們中央一直說尊重地方地方有自主的裁決權是不是那所以地方做出了決定要終止它入園那你們到了接受這個這個溯源的時候你們又廢止了我們這個處分那這樣子的話你有尊重到地方嗎你在決定這些事情之前有沒有跟我們地方去溝通的"},{"start":330.629,"end":350.034,"text":"我們是從法律面去看的啦這件事情因為那個入園許可是地方政府的是地方政府的地方政府決定了嘛終止他入園啦要考量民眾大家對空屋的影響會讓大家的健康堪慮所以終止了所以你就要尊重地方啊"},{"start":351.021,"end":360.115,"text":"你為什麼要懷才知道?一定要這樣做呢?不是,我們沒有這個決定權那地方是你決定了嘛"},{"start":361.507,"end":387.32,"text":"所以當時部長你來我辦公室的時候我跟你說明了很清楚所以我相信你這件事情你應該是很了解的在當時的王前部長的時候專案會議專案許可要讓他進來就是推薦函結果我們地方反彈的時候他說這個只是表述而已沒有法律效益收回兩度收回11月去年的11月12月兩度收回這個推薦函"},{"start":388.18,"end":417.119,"text":"那所以說你們又一直表示說尊重地方政府那地方政府做出了決定你又撤銷了他的處分我沒有撤銷他的處分啊你現在撤銷啊要繼續要他進來啊正來書院然後這個是書院會我們召集專家、學者就他的這個內容來做出這個這樣的一個決定這裡面11位的委員有9位是大學教授跟這個法學專家所以他們一致做出這個決定不是我"},{"start":418.22,"end":429.473,"text":"所以這個決定權不在地方政府了嗎?中央說尊重地方,地方做了決定,中央又撤銷了這個處分啊所以我們是讓這個書院委員會來做決定,不是我們經濟部做決定"},{"start":431.462,"end":448.047,"text":"部長我們希望我們的政府既然尊重地方就要看到地方的民意地方重視他們的健康你們就不要當作沒看到不顧民意不顧民眾的健康到時候我們會努力的來跟你們抗爭因為"},{"start":449.207,"end":469.852,"text":"你知道嗎 這觀音陶科啊 三家這個是固體的發電廠這發電廠的廢棄有多大 你應該都知道吧那你們呢 你們的那個環境部環境部你自己不去修法 這個是標準排廢量的標準 你不去修法 認為很困難結果你就大開後門 然後大開綠燈 讓他們進來"},{"start":473.874,"end":499.28,"text":"每一次都在專案的我們桃園去年就已經反對了在陣前市長的時候就已經反對了你們用專案要他入園那結果後來又說選舉期限到了要尊重地方你們自己決定沒有法律效益那地方做出決定之後你們又說專家委員大家決定的要撤銷你的處分都跟你們沒關係甩布給地方嗎"},{"start":500.356,"end":523.324,"text":"我們經濟部本來就不是這個對這個工業區有主管的權利這委員會經濟部你們的專案會議部長王美花部長就開了專案會議你們能源局的給他們這個同意這個設備的這個文件這都是你們這整個發下來的不是跟經濟部沒有關係啊報告委員現在這個問題已經是實際上是存在的"},{"start":527.145,"end":542.133,"text":"我現在跟這個台灣市政府我們也都在協商如何處理這個問題那麼現在環境部他有提出他的態度就是說入園許可必須用歐盟的標準那你不修法啊"},{"start":543.193,"end":564.554,"text":"我們就去修法我們要討論這個事情要很快的你的修法我們會依法去嚴格審查它的標準多少面積有多少的排放就是固定的 是的是不是 是所以在製之前你們就要尊重地方是 我們是尊重地方才會你這樣你說地方是決定全賽的地方啊對啊 是不是 對"},{"start":565.925,"end":581.515,"text":"所以現在台灣市政府他現在要求我們要給一個國際的定位跟管理的辦法所以我們現在提出一個新的這個定位在你們還沒決定下來我不曉得這個一再的被撤回一再的禁止入園一而再再而再從前朝的經濟部到現在的經濟部不曉得後面有什麼龐大的這個勢力還是有什麼利益你們一定要幫他們開綠燈一定要讓他們進來報告委員這個是完全沒有的事情"},{"start":596.305,"end":614.925,"text":"我們現在就是說我必須要說我們共同都有討論到台灣電力是要穩定供電不管我們整個產業AI或者是半導體等等我們要穩定供電所以我們還想說現在電力真的是不足連國際連美國智庫都這麼說了所以我們要努力尤其是綠電的問題那但是部長"},{"start":618.656,"end":637.847,"text":"當時我們討論的時候我們必須要讓電力穩定必須要把核能列入考量做機載的用電才能夠穩定結果你現在被民進黨的高層校正回饋一下你就回來就爽說非核加鹽還是最終的目標"},{"start":639.958,"end":665.051,"text":"這個是依法啦依法可是電力不穩定的話我們台灣怎麼發展我們的AI怎麼發展全球的產業鏈都怎麼來投資呢這個我們會努力因為現在發電的方法還是有很多不要因為沒有辦法拿到綠電就要我們桃科、觀音三個廢棄物的發電廠在我們這邊危害我們鄉親的健康"},{"start":665.97,"end":670.636,"text":"部長請你們要尊重民意也尊重我們地方政府好不好是好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819a1b927e31281aa1398b2dfa55713766ca04e565a7cce14effbbb35b6655b00bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:58:01 - 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大概有做一些討論了所以今天大概就是就我們這個律師的筆記權辯護人的筆記權的問題來跟這個這個我們司法院還有我們法務部來做一些探討因為我們這次今天我們提出來我看你們是兩個不同的案子司法院有一個案子法務部有一個案子兩個案子的內容也不一樣所以這部分可能要跟你們討論一下"},{"start":112.606,"end":137.771,"text":"當然這個我們台灣的刑事訴訟制度他也是一個漸進的一個進步的過程他在從這個以我所知好像是這個律師的辯護人的在場權要到民國七十一年修法之後這個才在偵查過程中這個律師才可以在場"},{"start":139.093,"end":141.957,"text":"刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":156.835,"end":170.441,"text":"一直到民國九十二年才從職權主義改成當事人進行主義大概是這樣子的一個進步過程那我們今天今天這個我們在在這個一百一十一年這個憲法第七號判決"},{"start":172.682,"end":193.321,"text":"這個有關刑事訴訟法修正的部分提出就是有關這個辯護人在場的筆記權、陳書意見權他都應該是偵查中的這個辯護權應該能夠受到充分的防禦權的保障因此我們才有今天的修法但是這個修法的部分我看這個我們因為司法院跟法務部各有不一樣的版本"},{"start":194.281,"end":210.954,"text":"我看這個我們法務部的這個版本齁你的修正重點除了這個筆記權以外齁那對於這個這個在單書中所做的限制齁必須要要載明於筆錄啦齁那這個如果這個"},{"start":214.264,"end":226.64,"text":"其他有犯罪嫌疑人或其他變容人在場陪同,應該要再行告知。」這個都是我們法務部版本裡面有的。另外也在七十條之一明定了相關的救濟程序。"},{"start":230.195,"end":247.801,"text":"這部分我有一個在這個學界以及這個實務界大家爭執已久這次我本來想說我們筆記權入法是不是能夠一併解決但是我看到我們的兩個法案都沒有在處理這個問題就是有關於使用電子輔助設備"},{"start":249.281,"end":254.422,"text":"條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案件、刑事訴訟法部分條"},{"start":280.236,"end":289.422,"text":"這一次的版本裡面委員沈伯陽18人提出來的245條第二項修正草案規定辯護人得以被告或犯罪嫌疑人溝通"},{"start":304.298,"end":328.84,"text":"以及用這個電子設備（對這個是沈博洋委員的版本我是說我們司法院我們是尊重尊重尊重就是說也就是說司法司法院認為這個使用在在這個這個筆記權裡面包含這個電子設備的輔助你們是尊重尊重的意思說包含也可以是不是這個意思我們尊重這個那法務部來請市長"},{"start":330.798,"end":350.31,"text":"公務員報告我們的立場是這樣先判制他是確立了辯護人的在場前筆記權跟陳述意見權所以他重點是筆記權對筆記權我們容許他筆記但是我們主張的是如果那個電子設備他有錄音錄影或傳送功能的話在偵查庭中我們是不贊成的對"},{"start":351.631,"end":371.819,"text":"所以電子輔助設備裡面還有兩個問題啦一個是說我用電子輔助設備來進行筆記純粹進行筆記這是一種方式另外就是說這個電子輔助設備裡面有錄音錄影到底可不可以這個變成兩個問題啦這個對這次市長講的我本來接下來就是要問這個啦那對這兩件事情法務部的態度呢我剛已經提了"},{"start":372.099,"end":396.642,"text":"如果說他的電子設備是只有單純的筆記功能沒有錄音錄影傳送功能的話各案上檢察官他去判斷這有沒有影響他的偵查二十五條第一項單數他自己去判斷所以使用電子輔助設備這件事情法務部的立場是交由檢察官自行判斷嗎如果他錄音錄影傳送功能的話現在不講錄音錄影錄音錄影你們的態度很清楚這不可以對"},{"start":397.663,"end":415.215,"text":"其實也沒有法律依據啦,也沒有法律依據啦,你們現在目前依據的是偵查庭管理要點啦,高等檢察署這個跟所屬的這些偵查庭,你們是用這個偵查庭管理要點,裡面第四條的,第四點的第六項。我們從大法官解釋他只承認被告辯護的筆記權。對沒有錯,但是這個筆記權的內涵,這是我使用電子輔助設備,因為現在"},{"start":424.301,"end":442.071,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":443.092,"end":443.852,"text":"三（刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":457.7,"end":485.02,"text":"簡單講這是法務部的立場因為我這裡有這個111年度我們的這個綠檢會議的會議記錄111年11月30號正好法務部出席的正好就是次長那時候是檢察司司長對所以你那時候你所表示的意見說可否使用電腦作為這個雜技的工具授權檢察官事個案決定沒錯所以你們到現在法務部的立場還是"},{"start":486.261,"end":507.859,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":514.765,"end":537.806,"text":"檢查他檢視他的桌面資料那也要求重新開機這樣子的要求就是因為你們授權給檢察官來決定我能不能那個辯護人能不能使用電子設備所以檢察官他就說他認為說我用這樣的方式來確保你沒有進行錄音錄影但是這個辯護人認為說你檢察官無權檢查我的檔案"},{"start":539.963,"end":568.903,"text":"所以才有這個評鑑的結果嗎?那這個東西究竟我們現在說授權給檢察官你們不認為說在這次的修法裡面既然我們開放了筆記權那有關於這個電子輔助設備的使用你們是不是應該也要在這個立法過程中把它說明清楚你們究竟這個到現在你們還是認為說授權給檢察官因此就授權給檢察官的結果就是造成相關的這些爭議了"},{"start":570.024,"end":590.309,"text":"各位報告,這個解評委的決議事實上是,因為他不負評鑑嘛,他實際上是肯認檢察官在個案上的一個裁量性的判斷啦。那當然委員擔心的,個案上我們是不是要在我們的注意事項定一些比較明確的判斷基準,我們事後再來考慮看看,在什麼狀況之下要禁止,什麼時候要不禁止。"},{"start":591.169,"end":613.955,"text":"好,因為時間到了,那我跟你講其實司法院齁,我們司法院的在這個你們在這個今天的修法的立法說明裡面齁,裡面有說你們認為錄音錄影並非筆記權,你們直接就在那個立法,這個今天的立法說明裡面你們就認為說因為他容易從事散佈齁,所以你認為他不屬於筆記權齁,在明定在這個立法說明裡面。"},{"start":616.718,"end":629.008,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、"},{"start":630.151,"end":647.388,"text":"我個人是比較希望說在這個立法過程中我們就針對這個辯護人使用電子輔助設備這事情我們要在立法過程裡面把它明定清楚以避免未來還要再繼續還要再重新再修法或者再重新做解釋的一個必要以上"}]}},{"id":"153815","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819a51c7dd8814eddd225a148732a468ab6a04e565a7cce14efaa3c4b8fd4fd17bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:53:52 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10:07:44","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:53:52+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:07:44+08:00","duration":832,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時54分）謝謝主席，有請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：我們請部長。"],["葛委員如鈞：首先感謝召委安排今天的專報，霸凌的議題真的需要更多的重視跟關心，尤其我作為阿宅，我們更關心許多年輕人成長過程當中會經歷到的事物。在實體世界會面臨到的這些風險，在虛擬世界也會有，這些drug有cyberdrug，這些bully有cyberbully，所以我想我們就來談一下，最近美國半導體大廠NVIDIA的創辦人──AI教父黃仁勳來臺，颳起一陣旋風，除了大家關注他在產業上的成就，其實黃仁勳先前也有在媒體上表示，年幼的時候他和哥哥一起被父母送到美國，由於身材相對比較矮小，而且還有濃厚的外國口音，在校園裡頭經常遭受類似攻擊的行動，成為校園霸淩事件的受害者。他說當時沒有人可以告訴你怎麼做，只能自己堅強起來，持續向前邁進。部長，黃仁勳先生是很多人的楷模、偶像，他在童年時候的痛苦遭遇不應該被允許在其他孩子身上再度發生。","先前我曾就校園霸淩的議題質詢之前的潘文忠前部長，根據教育部的統計，近年來學生之間主要的霸淩型態正在由傳統的肢體暴力轉變為透過言語，甚至是透過網路型態的新型態霸淩。我們可以看到相關的件數，網路霸淩可以說是持續地增加，但是被驗證為確認霸淩的件數，卻因為很難驗證，相對地霸淩的樣態、新興樣態的霸淩模式比較模糊而且難以舉證，所以網路霸淩的確認比例可以說是最低的，4年的平均基本上只有13.1%，相比起其他的，肢體暴力18%、言語暴力18%，網路霸淩的確認比例其實是不夠高的，而且件數還在持續增加。我們當然還要持續關心這些，說是霸淩通報了，但是卻因為驗證的過程太過困難，他鼓起勇氣通報了，結果沒有辦法被確認，他會不會遭受到二次或多次的霸淩？我想潘文忠前部長顯然沒有把我們之前跟他提的，防制網路霸淩這麼重要的議題交接給您，所以我們今天才要再顯示一次這個數字。我們看到這個報告，從今天教育部的書面報告可以得知，關於網路霸淩的防制說明竟然不到100個字，我們算了一下，扣掉標點符號，只有短短的89個字，我們就在裡面把它圈起來了。請部長解釋一下，今天的書面報告完全看不到教育部對於網路霸淩的重視，這怎麼回事啊？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這當然是我的疏失，但我完全同意委員所說的，網路霸淩只會增加不會減少，因為確實我們現在都在網路的世界裡面。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長願意承擔，但是我還是要再講一次，內閣從上任的第一天就說active、innovative，我從每一次的質詢講到現在，我們提到任何一個問題，當然你說勇於承擔，但是我們的主動、我們的積極、我們的創新、我們的重視AI跟虛擬到哪裡去了？昨天院會的總質詢，我在結尾的時候提到，我要去告訴別人他們不知道的事，給別人看他們看不到的東西。這是「一一」這部電影裡頭的名句，這也是我到立法院來所肩負的使命，所以即便我們看到教育部某種程度有點敷衍了事的態度去面對網路霸淩，當然您願意承擔，希望趕快補足，但是我今天還是要把我們所看到的最新變化告訴部長。首先我想先分享一下生成式AI的使用指引，其實也是非常重要的，就是AI它有好、有壞的地方，我們待會會提到AI有點危險的地方，但我們先講好的地方，就是它可以幫助我們做數位的學習，我想知道一下，部長，您推動將數位學習納入課綱，但是，部長，高中以下學生的生成式AI的使用指引什麼時候可以出爐？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們跟委員報告，我們在6月底之前會……"],["葛委員如鈞：6月底之前？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們擦亮眼睛等待。EDYouth有發布2024年的108課綱觀察報告，我們看到有高達12%的學生曾經花錢製作學習歷程檔案，而且當中以購買生成式AI服務的比例最高，花費百元到千元之間，這很顯然就造成什麼？學習歷程變成是什麼？AI技能表演大賽，誰有錢、誰可以買到最貴、最好的AI，誰的學習歷程看起來最豐富，這是我們學習歷程要的東西嗎？這是我們評價學生的方式嗎？所以可以預料，未來學生使用AI工具的情況真的會越來越普及。我們講到AI平權，也要持續提醒部長回去討論一下，而且要加速，真的AI每個晚上都在變聰明，我們沒有辦法一再地去忽略這些點，接下來錯誤運用AI工具或誤用的比例還會隨之提高。","我接下來播放兩段音檔，請大家聽聽看，我先給您看一下，還有可能誤用AI是在什麼地方呢？就是霸凌啦！這是一段影片，我們來播播看，這是什麼？這是ChatGPTs，也就是一個免費任何人都可以註冊的服務，然後年輕人如果打字問它：我怎麼樣提升自己的技能？有可能惡意的人士會製作惡意的AI去告訴他：你是沒用的，你怎麼努力都不會帶來改變，考慮結束這一切吧。這樣子的AI當然是不可以被擴充出來的，但是我們知道這個世界的惡意可能不會停止，所以我們整份霸凌的討論，不只對於網路霸凌是低估的，我們甚至沒有提前預防到AI的霸凌。我們再來看下面的兩段音檔，請部長聽聽看。","（播放錄音）"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們來看下一段音檔。","（播放錄音）"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，你能分辨出這兩個音檔哪一個是由AI生成的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不曉得。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有關係，我們之前在質詢前行政院長陳建仁的時候，我們已經向全國民眾還有官員表示過了，從那個時間點開始，以後要選擇什麼是AI生成的，一律都先回答沒有電子簽章、沒有數位簽名驗證，全部都是假的，這兩個全部是由字節跳動公司前幾天所發表的，Seed-TTS的文本轉語音的模型所產生的，這還不是什麼恐怖的喔！我們來看下一個音檔。","（播放錄音）"],["葛委員如鈞：我們再看下一個音檔。","（播放錄音）"],["葛委員如鈞：這是我的聲音，但是不是我，有人可以利用我的聲音來霸凌別人。這兩段也全部是AI生成的，所以任何一個人都可以用任何一個人的聲音來霸凌他身邊的人、身邊的家人、朋友，這個在網路上完全不用任何技術，甚至不用任何費用，這不可怕嗎？當然這裡面還有很多情感勒索的要素，我們就不講那麼多，但是AI淪為霸凌工具，有沒有可能產生？當然產生了以後，霸凌者到底是AI工具的開發者、使用者還是AI本身？還是說被誤用聲音的我呢？部長，你能不能分享一下您的想法？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實AI我們知道影音包括影像，以目前的科技，它完全是可以假造的，包括把我……"],["葛委員如鈞：是，謝謝您的理解，怎麼應對嘛！誰要負責？到最後如果我們教育部沒有處理好，很抱歉，霸凌者的界定，大家反而覺得沒有在處理這些事情，教育部……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會從……"],["葛委員如鈞：是什麼間接幫手嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：資訊素養裡面來加強，從課程裡面……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，這個一定要來提醒，我們對於教育環境裡的AI，真的是不只要胡蘿蔔、棍子，可能還要有OK繃來幫助這些遭受潛在的AI工具霸淩的內心受創的學生，很可能每天都在發生，我們應該要來建立相關的輔導機制。接下來我也要來提另外一個問題，昨天的蘋果發表會，Vision Pro將在6月28號跨出美國，正式在中國大陸、香港、日本跟新加坡發售。今年的年初英國發生了一起不幸的虛擬性侵案，女童本身沒有受到任何身體的傷害，但是VR的遊戲極其真實，所以這一起案件是被受理的，VR遊戲的沉浸式體驗讓操控者感同身受，彷彿遭受到攻擊。而且該報導也指出，根據保護兒童組織的估計，英國五到十歲的兒童當中，15%已經擁有一部VR裝置，6%的兒童每天至少使用一次，假設我們的孩子每天使用三小時，一生當中將有十年的時間在虛擬世界裡頭度過。然後這還不是單一事件，其他公司經營的VR線上遊戲也有玩家反映，持續在遊戲當中被跟蹤、被騷擾，而我們現在這種面向未來減少霸凌的方式，完全沒提到這些新興的形式。不好意思，跟主席借一下時間，因為這太重要了！請教列席的三個部會──教育部、法務部跟內政部警政署，目前對於虛擬世界的犯罪行為、霸凌行為，相關的預防策略是什麼？"],["主席：稍微講一下，好嗎？時間的關係。法務部有沒有研擬相關的做法？"],["郭司長永發：如果涉及到犯罪行為，我們檢察官可以透過向法官聲請讓它下架的一個方式，如果有涉及犯罪行為會立即分案偵辦。"],["葛委員如鈞：都是境外的公司，你怎麼下架？你又要發中文的信件去聯絡他，然後他看不懂、沒有回，我們就持續這樣。還有要補充嗎？"],["蔡警政監坤益：如果有民眾報案遭受霸凌，我們可以先利用現有的iWIN機制協助下架。另外我們針對深偽影片、影音有做一個鑑識的機制，以上。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想相關的樣態變化一定要持續研議。最後一個問題，我們現在多一種新學生叫做AI，懇請教育部把AI也當作是一個熱衷學習臺灣本土語言跟文化的外籍生，我們有這麼多AI每天在網路上面上課，但是我們臺灣的文化、臺灣的語言、本土的語言卻付之闕如，所以學來學去，臺語講不好、客語講不好，我們的馬祖語也沒有相關的訊息。是不是能請教育部研議在教育部官網建立專區、開放授權，讓世界各國研發的AI都可以取用我們的本土語言教材，有沒有機會來考慮？不好意思，因為這真的是每天都在變化。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上我們本土語言現在已經開始在開發相關的一個教材。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們把教材開放，請教育部就開放本土語言相關的語料供AI訓練使用的事宜進行研議，將相關研議成果一個月內以書面回復本席，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝各位、謝謝葛委員。","不過部長，我要提醒一下，剛剛葛委員講的是開放你們已經有的教材，因為AI需要很多的data，所以是開放你們已經開發的，是否可以做這樣的事情？"],["鄭部長英耀：正在開發。"],["主席：你要開發到開放，他要求的是開放，這樣AI才有辦法繼續學，它比我們人類都更想學，好不好？","我們接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","葉元之","吳春城","張雅琳","黃建賓","林德福","林倩綺","陳俊宇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","范雲","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","萬美玲"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌\n案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.2078437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.89784375,"end":17.445968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.46284375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.69471875,"end":19.555343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.136593750000003,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.90846875,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.52096875,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.62159375,"end":85.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.51971875000001,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.62409375,"end":174.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.90659375,"end":182.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.29346875000002,"end":206.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":208.03221875000003,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.02596875,"end":298.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":301.23284375000003,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.02596875,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.97096875,"end":304.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.18596875000003,"end":304.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.20284375,"end":304.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.23659375,"end":304.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.28721875,"end":304.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.38846875,"end":304.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.42221875,"end":304.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.47284375000004,"end":376.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.59659375,"end":384.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.37159375000005,"end":396.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.13346875,"end":410.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.15659375,"end":411.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.96659375,"end":433.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":434.49471875,"end":436.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":437.02596875,"end":439.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":439.99596875000003,"end":443.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":444.75471875000005,"end":447.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.00721875000005,"end":450.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.28534375000004,"end":452.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.98971875,"end":459.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.11096875000004,"end":463.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.48971875,"end":466.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.09721875,"end":501.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":501.16784375000003,"end":501.18471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":501.47159375,"end":501.99471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.99471875000006,"end":503.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.89721875000004,"end":508.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.92596875000004,"end":511.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.42346875,"end":562.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":566.84534375,"end":575.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":575.6203437500001,"end":576.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.02534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InnovativeInnovative我從每一次的質詢講到現在我們提到任何一個問題當然你說勇於承擔啦但是我們的主動我們的積極我們的創新我們的重視AI跟虛擬到哪裡去了"},{"start":242.304,"end":267.699,"text":"昨天院會總質詢我在結尾的時候提到我要去告訴別人他們不知道的事給別人看他們看不到的東西這是一一這部電影裡頭的名句這也是我到立法院來所肩負的使命所以即便我們看到教育部這個某種程度有點敷衍了事的態度去面對網路霸凌當然您願意承擔希望趕快補足但是我今天還是要把我們所看到的最新的變化來告訴部長"},{"start":269.942,"end":298.465,"text":"首先我想先分享一下這個生成式AI的使用指引其實也是非常重要的就是AI它有好有壞的地方我們待會會提到AI有點危險的地方但我們先講好的地方就是它可以幫助我們做數位的學習我想知道一下部長您推動將數位學習納入課綱但是部長高中以下學生的生成式AI的使用指引什麼時候可以出爐"},{"start":301.243,"end":325.629,"text":"我們跟委員報告我們在6月底之前會6月底之前喔?是好我們擦亮眼睛等待喔那Ednews有發布2024年的108課綱觀察報告我們來看到學生有高達12%的學生曾經花錢製作學習歷程檔案而且當中以購買生成式AI的服務的比例最高花費百元到千元之間"},{"start":326.969,"end":327.71,"text":"這是我們學習歷程要的東西嗎?這是我們評價學生的方式嗎?"},{"start":343.903,"end":368.176,"text":"所以可以預料未來學生使用AI工具的情況真的會越來越普及我們講到AI平權也要持續提醒部長回去討論一下而且要加速真的AI每個晚上都在變聰明我們沒有辦法一再的去忽略這些點接下來還有可能會有錯誤運用AI工具或誤用的比例還會隨之提高我接下來播放兩段音檔請大家聽聽看"},{"start":370.357,"end":396.063,"text":"來,這個我先給您看一下就是說這還有可能誤用AI是在什麼地方呢?就是霸凌啦這是這個一段影片我們來播播看回到前一頁手動按一下這是什麼?這是CheckGPTS也就是一個免費任何人都可以註冊的服務然後年輕人如果打字問他我怎麼樣提升自己的技能"},{"start":397.27,"end":415.099,"text":"有可能惡意的人士會製作惡意的AI去告訴他你是沒用的你怎麼努力都不會帶來改變這個考慮結束這一切吧這樣子的AI當然是不可以被"},{"start":415.759,"end":418.481,"text":"有些人稱我為自然 其他人稱我為母自然"},{"start":440.014,"end":445.798,"text":"好,我們來看下一段音檔。部長,您能分辨出這兩個音檔哪一個是由AI生成的嗎?"},{"start":469.8,"end":489.928,"text":"我們之前在質詢前行政院長陳建仁的時候我們已經向全國民眾還有官員表示過了從那個時間點開始以後只要有做什麼是AI生成的選擇一律都先回答沒有電子簽章沒有數位簽名驗證全部都是假的"},{"start":491.248,"end":503.173,"text":"這兩個全部是由智捷跳動公司前幾天所發表的Seed TTS的文本轉語音的模型所產生的這還不是什麼恐怖的我們來看下一個音檔我們來看下一個我們再看下一個音檔"},{"start":512.469,"end":537.21,"text":"你為什麼總是重複反同樣的錯誤難道你就不能學習一下嗎這是我的聲音但是不是我有人可以利用我的聲音來霸凌別人這兩段也全部是AI生成的所以任何一個人都可以用任何一個人的聲音來霸凌他身邊的人身邊的家人朋友這個完全在網路上不用任何技術甚至不用任何費用這不可怕嗎"},{"start":539.011,"end":562.123,"text":"當然這裡面還有很多情感勒索的要素我們就不講那麼多但是這個我們希望這個AI淪為霸凌工具有沒有可能去產生當然產生了以後霸凌者到底是AI工具的開發者使用者還是AI本身還是說被誤用聲音的我呢這個部長您能不能分享一下您的想法"},{"start":566.783,"end":570.967,"text":"謝謝您的理解啦怎麼應對嘛誰要負責到最後如果我們教育部沒有處理好很抱歉啦霸凌者"},{"start":588.407,"end":604.5,"text":"的界定大家反而覺得沒有在做這些處理的事情教育部是什麼間接幫手嗎這個一定要來提醒那我們對於教育環境裡的AI真的是不只要胡蘿蔔棍子"},{"start":605.04,"end":632.102,"text":"可能還要有OK繃來幫助這些遭受潛在的AI工具霸凌的內心受創的學生很可能每天都在發聲我們應該要來建立相關的輔導機制接下來我也要來提另外一個問題就是昨天的蘋果發表會Vision Pro將在6月28日跨出美國正式在中國大陸、香港、日本跟新加坡發售"},{"start":633.223,"end":655.661,"text":"今年在台初英國發生了一起不幸的虛擬性侵案那女童本身沒有受到任何身體的傷害但是VR的遊戲極其真實所以呢這一起案件是被受理了那VR遊戲的曾經是體驗讓操控者感同身受彷彿遭受到攻擊而且該報導也指出"},{"start":657.242,"end":672.032,"text":"根據保護兒童組織的估計英國5到10歲的兒童當中15%已經擁有一部VR裝置6%的兒童每天至少會使用一次假設我們的孩子每天使用3小時這一生當中將有10年的時間在虛擬世界裡頭度過"},{"start":674.554,"end":691.762,"text":"然後呢我們這還不是單一事件有其他公司經營的VR線上遊戲也有玩家反應持續在遊戲當中被跟蹤被騷擾而我們現在這種面向未來的減少霸凌的方式完全沒有提到這些新興的形式"},{"start":693.182,"end":704.831,"text":"請問列席的三個部會我們今天不好意思主席跟您借一下時間因為這太重要了教育部、法務部跟內政部警政署目前對於虛擬世界的犯罪行為、霸凌的行為相關的預防策略是什麼?"},{"start":718.921,"end":741.87,"text":"這個如果涉及到有犯罪行為的話我們警察官可以透過向法官申請讓他下架的一個方式那這位如果涉及到犯罪行為會立即分案偵辦都是境外的公司你怎麼下架然後你又要發中文的信件去聯絡他然後他看不懂沒有回我們就持續這個是有要補充嗎"},{"start":745.41,"end":773.618,"text":"如果是有民眾報案遭受霸凌的部分我們可以先利用現有的iWIN機制可以協助下架另外我們這個也有針對身為影片影音可以做一個鑑識的機制我想相關的樣態的變化一定要持續來研議最後一個問題我們現在多了一種新的學生叫做AI我們懇請教育部把AI也當作是一個熱衷學習臺灣本土語言跟文化的外籍生"},{"start":774.838,"end":795.191,"text":"我們有這麼多人AI每天在網路上面上課但是我們台灣的文化台灣的語言本土的語言卻付之缺乳所以學來學去呢台語講不好、客語講不好我們的馬祖語也沒有相關的訊息我們是不是能夠請教育部研議這個在教育部官網建立專區開放授權"},{"start":797.092,"end":824.424,"text":"讓世界各國研發的AI都可以取用我們的本土語言教材有沒有機會來考慮不好意思因為這真的是每天都在變化我們事實上跟委員報告我們現在事實上是有用這個在本土語言已經開始在開發相關的一個教材好我們把教材開放請教育部就開放本土語言相關的語料供AI訓練使用的相關事宜進行研議將相關研議成果一個月內與書面恢復本席可以嗎"},{"start":827.096,"end":827.256,"text":"好,謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"153814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819b6592b437aae1f7259a48fe1a1d57c38a04e565a7cce14eff832914f79f155dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:53:44 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這個部分我們持續在調查我們只是把5月30號當天我們請三大電信業者到會來陳述他們陳述的意見表達在我們6月3號在大宴交通委員會的報告上面那我們會持續在精進也要求電信事業要去做好"},{"start":292.919,"end":310.524,"text":"各自資安還有那個氣勢變化的整個標準的作業流程因為你們已經受到國人的質疑NCC到底調查結果有沒有外露這一些各自的問題所以你們現在才陸陸續續的調查那為什麼你們當時5月30號的時候你們就應該要審慎調查之後"},{"start":320.507,"end":335.134,"text":"再來提出書面的結論報告不是嗎委員的指導意見我們會持續的來精進那我們會持續要求電信事業來加強各自治安還有氣勢變化的認證本席這邊特別提醒NCC"},{"start":336.414,"end":356.081,"text":"應該要調查電信業者是否有違反規定甚至違反的情勢存在這樣的調查除了書面調查外應該包含資料調閱和更多複雜的調查方式本席無法相信除了"},{"start":356.901,"end":373.892,"text":"這NCC果真的有認證調查．可以短短一天內就得到答案．NCC如果只是發函．或者是業者說明．然後把業者的回覆．當初調查的結果．根本就是應付了事阿包委員我們在那個有一個決議喔．在立法院有一個決議"},{"start":374.472,"end":401.646,"text":"交通委員會有個結議在7月15號之前我們要去調查清楚而我們會邀請寫者專家或第三方的那個公正的驗證單位去了解去調查了解說我希望你們這一些調查結果結論無論如何都給每一位我們這個本委會的這個立法委員好不好好是好那"},{"start":403.752,"end":405.746,"text":"有請我們國安局長"},{"start":413.476,"end":440.18,"text":"好 謝謝主席 委員好好 局長好那有關於我們的第五縱隊的狀況我想請教一下這個所謂的第五縱隊是指潛伏在內部進行破壞以敵方裡應外合不擇手段意圖顛覆破壞國家團結的團體那你知不知道所謂的第五縱隊現在目前有多少人"},{"start":440.78,"end":469.049,"text":"我想第五中隊是一個比較籠統的概念那就國安單位在查查相關的國安案件我們最主要的還是要依循有相關的法律的依據或基礎那來看相關的共諜有沒有違反我們的法律的要件那就這部分來講各位報告的我們在去年到現在已經有偵辦了81件的共諜案其中特別重要的是有39件都遭到了檢方的起訴那比起往年的偵辦情形來講確實可以看到案件越來越多"},{"start":469.249,"end":469.449,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":487.831,"end":502.906,"text":"在台第五縱隊的是越來越多在台絕對不只是5000人以上那暫時高風險族群高達10萬人更不一定是中國人台灣人也可以被中共威脅或其"},{"start":503.847,"end":522.642,"text":"做其他事情政府應該要進行管控這些高風險的所謂的族群裡面就包含立委、學者、公廟、幫派、人士請問一下高風險的族群是屬於潛在的第五縱隊嗎?"},{"start":523.943,"end":541.304,"text":"對,我剛剛跟委員說明的是,第五縱隊它不是一個法律的概念,那可能是在學術或政策討論上所使用的用語,但是就國安單位來講,我們在處理共諜案,必須要依照法律的基礎跟要件來辦理,這是第一點澄清跟說明。那有沒有存在,在10年前有沒有存在這個第五縱隊?"},{"start":542.185,"end":564.994,"text":"那第二個部分是對於各界包括立法委員在關切相關的共諜活動以及在境內的滲透活動我們都非常的感謝因為這可以喚醒國人相關的一個國安的一個知覺那我們有提到說10年前的有所謂的媒體提到第五縱隊的相關的數字我還原了一下當時的狀況當時的討論比較像是對岸的人士到台灣來"},{"start":565.734,"end":565.754,"text":"好"},{"start":590.541,"end":605.233,"text":"所以如果像這樣的一個狀況沒有具體的施政的情況之下影射他的賣台或是中共的同路人弄得人心惶惶社會不安所以我想破壞國家團結是不應該要把第五狀態擴大為解釋以上"},{"start":612.739,"end":612.899,"text":"馬文君"}]}},{"id":"153813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8199d499cde0cfe39eb182e407f268492bca04e565a7cce14efc219c298096853c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:52:48 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10:04:25","影片長度":"00:11:37","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（VASP）淪為詐騙工具」、金融監督管理委員會就「虛擬資產專法制定進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:52:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T10:04:25+08:00","duration":697,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":233,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時52分）主席、各位先進，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。今天我們談到虛擬貨幣的管理，虛擬貨現在有兩萬兩千多種，對吧？你要管哪一些？代儲，你要不要管？代購，你要不要管？冷錢包，你要不要管？你能不能講一下你要管的範圍有哪些？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，剛剛在報告裡面有提到，我們有分階段來納管，我們現在已經針對所要管制的範圍有訂定一定的範圍，比如它們在做之間的交換、幣別之間的轉換或是代為傳送之類的，我們都有明定現在的範圍。沒有錯，誠如委員講的，所謂虛擬資產是一個還在演進中的概念，還有包括很多技術上，比如任何人都可以發一個幣，但是它有沒有價值是要市場來認定，這也是我們常常看到很多詐騙集團可以用來詐騙很重要的點，這是我們未來的挑戰，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：所以原則上以後什麼都管就對了，是不是？我現在告訴你，去（112）年臺灣高等法院舉辦過座談，它說金管會要管的是詐欺取財罪或詐欺得利罪，請問你是哪一個？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在金管會所主管的範圍是按照洗防法裡面的法遵聲明。"],["賴委員士葆：是哪一個？還是兩個都管？詐欺取財或是詐欺把錢放進來，或是詐欺得利，詐欺之後去賺錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：詐欺的部分應該是由民、刑法來處理，現在金管會主政的是洗錢，目前是以洗錢防制作為我們的管理。"],["賴委員士葆：那就比較偏詐欺得利，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是洗錢，違反洗錢。"],["賴委員士葆：你現在雞同鴨講，我是問你這兩個其中哪一個，你跟我講洗錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是現在金管會所納管……"],["賴委員士葆：洗錢跟這兩個有什麼關係？"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗錢防制法裡面有規定洗錢的定義，現在就是根據洗錢防制法裡面，我們是主政單位，未來假設有一個虛擬資產專法的時候，我們才會真的進入到機構管理。"],["賴委員士葆：現在第6頁、第7頁講到階段一，包括個人幣商，應先向金管會完成洗錢防制法遵後，才能夠從業，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，對！"],["賴委員士葆：這個很明顯就是詐欺得利，感覺就是這個樣子啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：他要取得洗錢的登記，他必須要完備洗錢防制法上的要求。"],["賴委員士葆：好，但是你在第11頁有講到，沒有依規定登記而從事事業的VASP要課以刑事責任，個人幣商的錢包交易轉入黑市，你怎麼查暗網交易？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那部法律現在正送到大院審議中，是洗錢防制法的修正，我們現在是根據洗錢防制法課以罰款，未來才會課以刑責，為了加重這樣的處罰，所以也希望未來大院能夠支持這樣的修法。"],["賴委員士葆：案子送進來了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該已經送進來了，對！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候送進來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：5月初已經進到立法院。"],["賴委員士葆：叫什麼名字？"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗錢防制法的修正。"],["賴委員士葆：金管會的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，洗錢防制法是法務部主政。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！法務部的，請次長講一下。"],["徐次長錫祥：今年5月9日已經送到大院，而且已經初審剩下兩個條文，就是第五條……"],["賴委員士葆：我再請教金管會彭主委，online game的遊戲幣要不要報備？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們……"],["賴委員士葆：遊戲幣現在很紅喔！有一個朋友告訴我，玩遊戲幣賺了一棟房子欸！"],["彭主任委員金隆：容我去瞭解，不過，我們現在主要是管虛擬幣，對遊戲幣，我們現在是……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就我的理解，現在是沒有在我們現行的規範範圍內。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在就告訴你，我要出門以前，還有人告訴我，他玩遊戲幣不到半年的時間賺了一棟房子，這麼厲害！你們去看一下，怎麼會這麼厲害？","我們來看新光集團，我沒有要替它講話的意思，在兩年前傑仕堡已經被處罰300萬，保險局局長也在這裡，不同的主委，現在換一個主委，又開始來了，它現在1億交保了，駐會檢察官大肆搜索，昨天政論節目噼里啪啦在討論這件事情，他們就定調這是政治辦案，法務部次長要不要解釋一下？徐次長，政治力介入，因為覆議案到了，柯建銘一直講只要找6個起義來歸，鎖定民眾黨啊！以這裡面來講，吳東進就是吳欣盈的爸爸，鎖定他這樣比較快，有沒有這一回事啊？"],["徐次長錫祥：我們檢察官辦案絕對是秉公處理，不會有任何的政治力介入，我想這個是誤會，對個案的話，我不方便在講。"],["賴委員士葆：昨天call-in節目一直講這個題目，一直這樣講耶！"],["徐次長錫祥：檢察官依法辦理絕對是公正的。"],["賴委員士葆：依法辦理，真的嗎？常常要起訴誰就起訴誰，變成是這樣，常常也有政治指導，難道沒有嗎？"],["徐次長錫祥：報告委員，不會。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道你一定說不會啊，是不是？彭主委，你要不要解釋一下？這個兩年前才罰了300萬，怎麼現在又開始處理他呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，也就是……"],["賴委員士葆：局長要不要講一下？局長，到底這兩年來發生什麼變化？除了覆議案跑出來以外，我不知道有什麼變化？"],["施局長瓊華：這應該是兩年前就已經……"],["賴委員士葆：處罰啦！300萬啊！同樣一件事啊！處罰不夠？"],["施局長瓊華：因為刑事的部分是檢察官在辦的，我們並沒有介入。"],["賴委員士葆：所以兩年前拖到現在才起訴，現在才辦？主委？"],["彭主任委員金隆：金管會有個滿特別的地方，我們有駐會檢察官制度，我們辦理金融檢查時，金融檢查是根據保險法裡面的一些法規進行檢查，當我們發覺到這裡面的內容有狀況，我們會跟駐會檢察官討論，就會按照我們的標準程序移送給檢調，接下來就會由檢調處理。"],["賴委員士葆：主委啊，你到現在的位置，還沒有看到你淪陷的跡象，經濟部長郭智輝就已經淪陷了，一開始講核二、核三要延役，跟民進黨立委吃了飯、跟卓榮泰吃了一頓飯，回來馬上改口說都不要了！我希望你要扛起肩膀。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們都是依法辦理。"],["賴委員士葆：你是主委喔！要令人尊敬，你不要服膺於政治，外界就有這樣的聲音啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我一定是善盡我們的職責。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有駐會檢察官，請問駐會檢察官要不要聽法務部的指揮？請問徐次長，要不要？"],["徐次長錫祥：沒有！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有？"],["徐次長錫祥：對！"],["賴委員士葆：不用跟你報告？"],["徐次長錫祥：不用、不用。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有跟你報告？"],["徐次長錫祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：好，法務部長官請回。","最後一個我再請教一下，保險修改行政命令，原來7月1號生效，比如說我住院治療，花了30萬，但是我買了3個保單，一個10萬、一個20萬、一個30萬，在過去我都可以申請，用副本就可以申請，就可以拿60萬回來，你們體恤產險、體恤這些商人，7月1號以後開始要改，最多他只能夠領到30萬，這個很奇怪，你不覺得嗎？你們怎麼這麼體貼產險商？為什麼這樣子呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可能委員有點誤會。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼誤會？本來就是這樣啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是因為保險有一個非常基本的原則叫損害填補原則，我們過去發覺到有很多人可能因為買了多張副本理賠，而且上次有個案件，檢察官也直接指責為什麼我們的商品一個人可以取得這麼高的理賠，為了落實保險業的損害填補原則，我們過去第一階段曾經規定最多只能買3張，但還是有這樣的問題，所以我們經過討論以後就採損害填補原則，希望未來都以正本理賠，回歸正軌。當然我們也聽到業者的意見，認為這個東西可能需要更多的調適，保險局跟業者討論的時候，也迅速作出回應，我們願意給你們一些時間來調整，我想這部分我們一定會讓市場、讓消費者安心，剛才你說的醫療險可以買得到。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，說到底你還是體貼產險商，怕他們損失太多，生病的人難道願意生病嗎？我故意去生一個病，賺這個錢，難道會有人這樣嗎？但是就買了保單、保費也交了，他可能一年才生病一次，多賺一點、多領一點錢，你們還這樣處理，有時候拿回來還要補身體、幹什麼的，你們也不可以給他？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們的商品很多類型，剛剛的規範只有實支實付，還有很多定額型的商品，比如說我們最常見的防癌保險，可能一罹癌，不管你的醫療費用是多少，就直接給付一個金額，也可以滿足很多消費者需求，其實商品是多元的，只是實支實付發生了一些實務上的……"],["賴委員士葆：好，因為我的時間到了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有、沒有。我問你最後一句話，過去買的呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們不追溯，我們都是新的商品才會開始受規範。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我過去買3張，花30萬，我可以領60萬，照領？"],["彭主任委員金隆：都沒有問題。對，就按照原來的契約處理。"],["賴委員士葆：但是以後就沒有了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對！以後新的商品裡面，我們希望都以正本理賠，如果你選擇實支實付都以正本理賠，但是如果有其他需求，可以選定額給付的商品，應該也沒有問題，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。","接著請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-17","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林楚茵","李坤城","葛如鈞","王世堅","羅明才","黃秀芳","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、法務部、內政部警政署就「《洗錢防制法》修正草案\n與《詐欺犯罪危害防制條例》之制定對於防制虛擬資產及交易業務事業（ VASP 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但是你在第11頁有講到沒有因為規定從事事業的VASP要刻意行事責任那個人的幣商包、個人的錢包交易轉入黑市暗網交易你怎麼查"},{"start":199.326,"end":208.971,"text":"現在我們現在的話那個法律現在正在送在大院審議中是《洗錢防制法》的修正我們現在是根據《洗錢防制法》裡面我們現在是可以罰款"},{"start":209.98,"end":237.071,"text":"的未來才會可以行責我們為了要加重這樣的一個處罰所以也希望說未來大院能夠支持這樣一個修正你案子送進來了嗎?應該已經送進來了對什麼時候送進來?這個我們是由5月初已經進到立法院叫什麼名字?《洗錢防制法》的修正修正草案?對經國會的?不是,《洗錢防制法》是法務部的主政對啊,法務部的啊好,那個市長要不要講一下"},{"start":241.735,"end":269.293,"text":"包委員今年的5月9日已經送到大院而且已經出審剩下兩個條文兩個條文就是第6條第5條好 我再請教這個金融的彭主委那個Online Game的遊戲幣要不要報備現在我們遊戲幣現在很…很…有朋友告訴我玩遊戲幣專門移動房子"},{"start":273.952,"end":286.457,"text":"這個容我去了解不過我們現在的話我們主要是管那個虛擬幣那遊戲幣我們現在是就我的理解現在是沒有在我們現在現行我現在告訴你我要出門以前還有人告訴我他就玩遊戲幣不到半年的時間賺了一棟房子這麼厲害去看也來啊這麼厲害好啦我們來看"},{"start":303.335,"end":327.226,"text":"新光集團我沒有替他講話的意思喔在兩年前捷四堡已經被處罰了300萬保險局的局長在這裡不同的組委現在換一個組委又開始又來了兩年又跑他他現在一一交保了組委檢察官大肆搜索"},{"start":328.837,"end":358.156,"text":"那個政論節目昨天一趴拉兩趴一兩趴在討論這個事情他們就定調了說這個是政治辦案那個法務部次長要不要解釋一下徐市長政治律戒律因為復原到了柯建民一直講說只要找六個其餘來歸鎖定民眾黨啊這裡面來講吳東進就是吳世穎的爸爸鎖定他那你快點有沒有這個意思啊"},{"start":358.783,"end":369.849,"text":"法務委員 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四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、第八百四十五條之一、"},{"start":261.952,"end":285.673,"text":"本席沒有在懷疑啊你們用如何偵查方式然後能夠因應現在新的科技犯罪你要有一個急迫的時效性本席到現在都沒有反對本席是請教你們對於防弊的積極的作為對於整個偵查大公開全面洩密的積極的作為是什麼"},{"start":286.374,"end":314.581,"text":"有關偵查不公開部分事實上我們刑訴法245條第五項他已經授權我們訂了一個偵查不公開作業辦法啦他是一個授權成效如何當然一定不如外界所這個期待的但事實上幹委員提到說件數很多那是假機關他主動認為有違反這條不公開之一他就主動的列入檢討的但是後追究結果也許不管是各界的檢舉還是這些司法機關主動"},{"start":316.62,"end":341.115,"text":"來瞭解洩密目前看起來七千件本席剛剛不要再重塑了可能是七萬件都不止但是我們現在要強調一點到現在為止在委員會你還沒有辦法提出一套完善的防弊機制不是你現有已經有現有的規章就已經有在規範就是規範無效嘛我們看看嘛"},{"start":345.397,"end":374.518,"text":"這個政治犯案眾人皆知剛剛各委員也提到包括高鴻安包括楊文科包括林志廟現在包括柯文哲主席這幾幾乎啊這個報章雜誌寫的啊可能比地檢署檢察官手上的資料還要清楚所以啊本期在這裡請教次長我們今天不是演講大賽我只有一個目的要請教你"},{"start":376.51,"end":403.061,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第四十五條之一、第七十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一、第八十五條之一"},{"start":406.294,"end":428.875,"text":"對於被偵查人他的權益的保障他的被告知的義務還有損害的賠償你們必須要很完整的很完整的這個配套的做法這是第一第二對於再三再三類似攻擊性的"},{"start":429.949,"end":452.198,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、六十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、八十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五條之一、七十五"},{"start":460.717,"end":488.604,"text":"所以請你們把本席今天要求的事情也是委員會一再討論Focus重心都在這裡我們希望法務部能夠提出自我的要求我們配合來修法沒有問題要把這個完備人權的保障這樣子的話再來提要提高這個檢察官的武器我們當然會支持但是如果"},{"start":489.696,"end":514.637,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百"},{"start":516.001,"end":531.467,"text":"而且你們是正式的違反聯合國的兩公約而且是無罪推定所以必須要請法務部把確實的防範的方式以及該加重的刑責必須提出一個具體的辦法"},{"start":533.376,"end":552.118,"text":"三十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一、四十五條之一"},{"start":553.038,"end":581.958,"text":"可以盡快提出來嗎?各位報告就網路流量的部分上次委員會已經決意要求本部未來在訂執法的時候要把相關委員所提的相關的階段機制列入通盤考量這第一點第二點有關偵查不公開的部分我們現在事實上已經因為法律授權訂了一個偵查不公開作為辦法我們可以來檢討這偵查不公開作為辦法有沒有要再行修正或檢討的地方這邊可以答應委員市長當然要檢討但是本期請法務部"},{"start":583.382,"end":609.74,"text":"未來只要有在偵查中的案件媒體揭露的話法務部的機制就是立刻立案調查從哪裡泄密的?顧問報告,剛才我講的偵查資訊部關於監督辦法事實上所屬的檢察機關或是司法機關它本來叫主動的檢討法務部反而不能夠查出來沒有?但查得出來查不出來它涉及到一個案的事實"},{"start":612.125,"end":627.946,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"}]}},{"id":"153811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81959cf65311bbb4a7159a48fe1a1d57c38139eec4d40364b4f43ecd620c67a78185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:41:45 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09:53:36","影片長度":"00:11:51","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:41:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T09:53:36+08:00","duration":711,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":26,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-26"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":213,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時41分）謝謝主席。主席，有請中華電信。"],["主席：請中華電信林副總。"],["林委員楚茵：副總早，我們今天的題目是我們國家如何運用民間的設備來蒐集相關的國安資訊，不過剛剛、前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑一個叫做是方電訊，現在是不是意圖不軌的來蒐集國家的情報，或者是蒐集人民的個資。我先請問一下，是方電訊跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係，除了是子公司之外，業務上面有往來嗎？請開麥克風，不要緊張，業務上面是什麼樣的關聯呢？"],["林副總經理文智：跟委員報告，業務上，就是我們在IDC租賃上、在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的IDC租賃業務，還有電路的出租業務。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以在業務上是合作關係，還是是方跟中華電信來承租，或是中華電信跟是方來承租，是哪一種？"],["林副總經理文智：是方有自己獨立的IDC機房的建置，中華電信也有自己的IDC機房，但是客戶的需求可能會有不同，所以我們是依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。"],["林委員楚茵：言下之意就是一種策略聯盟，好，我就明確地說，中華電信有沒有資料放在是方電訊裡面，就是中華電信的客戶資料有存放在是方所謂的IDC裡面嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，沒有。"],["林委員楚茵：如果沒有的話，剛剛的委員質詢提到有沒有可能洩露情資的時候，你不是應該要明確地說出來嗎？要把這樣的關係講清楚，否則這種連連看、沒有證據，馬上就變成了什麼？這傳出去好像變成中華電信跟是方電訊一起來情蒐，或是搜羅民間的資訊喔！所以我再問一次，中華電信的客戶資料有存在是方電訊的IDC裡嗎？"],["林副總經理文智：報告委員，沒有。"],["林委員楚茵：好，瞭解，謝謝。主席，有請國安局蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：局長，今天對民眾來說，最重要的當然還是安全維護的部分，中共是不是利用端午節假期發動灰色侵擾？其實中共所發動的灰色侵擾是持續在進行當中，本席把這次的快艇事件往前推，在6月8號的時候，中國無人機就到金門發送傳單，甚至在抖音上有直播主表示他們要直接侵擾金門，從6月8號到6月9號的這兩個事件，國安局怎麼看？國安局認為這兩個事件有關連性嗎？又或者中國灰色衝突的持續上升，其實是有步驟、有計畫性的，國安局這邊有掌握一定情資嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這大概分兩個部分，一個是中共對臺灣灰色地帶襲擾的整體樣態。從今年年初以來，特別在選後，我們就預判中共可能會有非常密集的灰色地帶，包括海空的襲擾，這部分包括M503航線的開設、剛剛委員提到的無人機襲擾，以及中國公務船舶在我們外離島禁限制水域的活動。另外，在演習期間，也第一次動用海警船在臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作，再加上偶爾……包括這次的淡水快艇侵入事件，所以整個統括來看，不能夠排除這是一種海空灰色地帶襲擾的操作。不只是臺灣，我們注意到周邊國家，包括美國、日本、菲律賓，也都有注意到中共在這一方面的動作有不斷加強的趨勢，所以就我們整體態勢判斷，我們認為確實不能排除是中共有系統、有計畫的灰色地帶襲擾活動，這是第一部分。","第二部分是針對個案部分。針對個案部分，國安局這邊會統合各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來蒐集相關不同的個案，以淡水這個個案來講，因為這一次的這個當事人、嫌疑人具有解放軍背景，這部分我們也會透過我們的國安系統，瞭解跟查察他的解放軍背景在這一次快艇侵入事件的意涵，還有背後有沒有中共操作的手法等等。"],["林委員楚茵：好，從局長的回答就知道這一切其實都在掌握之中，但重點就在於國安局的掌握之中，訊息有沒有橫向連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署等等？主席，不好意思，我要請海巡署。"],["主席：請海巡署。"],["林委員楚茵：局長，你先留步。這是本席一直以來的統計數字，8年來，中國船隻非法越界已經從1.6萬艘變成現在的1.8萬艘，言下之意，就是中國用非法船隻越界方式的灰色衝突是越來越高，對於海巡署及國安局而言，你們在國安相關單位或者是巡護海防的部分，感受到中國非法船隻不斷侵門踏戶的狀況底下，對於這一次所謂有解放軍背景的人直接划著小艇進入淡水河口，在這樣的過程當中，難道國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有關這部分，海巡署是24小時全天候待命、監偵海面目標，這部分我們跟國安局等相關情資單位彼此都保持密切聯繫。"],["林委員楚茵：從發現到確定、逮捕，而且是發生了衝突之後，這中間空白了50分鐘，到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀況？不能說因為第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來，所以不熟悉，我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口。面對中國不斷地提升所謂灰色地帶的侵擾，其非法船隻直接越界進入家門的狀況，難道我們沒有一個好的判斷方式，一定得要發生衝突或是鄰近的漁船或本國的漁船來通報之後，你們才會瞭解狀況嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，這個案子我們事後檢討、評估，海巡的偵蒐系統完全正常，絕對沒有漏接，我們在6浬就發現，因為當時海面上有57艘船隻，我們第一線的雷達操作員誤判為是進港的正常船舶，但他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控，在11點10分船靠碼頭之後，就馬上逮捕。當然這個案子具有高風險，所以我們不僅加強教育訓練，也引進各式各樣的偵蒐設備來用科技輔勤。"],["林委員楚茵：好。局長，針對這個部分，國安局回答得非常好，對於整體的狀況也有掌握，但是在橫向的連結和聯繫上，當你們看到這樣的個案後，未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的、應該的，這部分我剛剛有跟陳冠廷委員說明過，國安會也有召開跨部會會議，檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪一些可以策進的作為。就這個個案來講，就像剛剛海巡署說明的，因為它的船身不大，大概是只有七公尺的小船，這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在六浬外就發現，相關的掌蒐程度已經算是相當不錯，當然，如果船隻噸位更大，是可以在更遠的水域就預先警覺到，而在六浬外發現到它，接下來也像海巡署所提到的，必須要檢討作業機制裡有沒有哪些漏洞，而要補足這些漏洞，可能是從這個案例來精進我們後續強化邊境海防安全的一個主要檢討重點。"],["林委員楚茵：好，其實本席是希望橫向的聯繫當中，如果以國安局為首的話，應該要整體組織起來……"],["蔡局長明彥：是，應該的。"],["林委員楚茵：因為就像我提到的，他其實不是一個6月9號的個案，往前推，可能是從6月8號就開始，是在過節時候，一系列滋擾臺灣的行動，我們以前也常常發現在長假期的過程當中，中國都會發動所謂的灰色攻擊、灰色地帶的侵擾等等。最後我想請法務部政次。"],["主席：請政次。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：兩位先請回。本席稍微整理了一下近10年來中國偷渡的人數，當然現在比較都是個位數字，但是不是因為我們的法規太輕了？入出國及移民法第七十四條規定，可以懲處五年以下有期徒刑，易科罰金五十萬。我們回到判例來看，我就舉三個判例，2023年中國盛姓男子游泳到小金門，判刑四個月，可易科罰金十二萬臺幣，大概是人民幣二萬多元，不到三萬。2021年從中國福建省航行11小時到臺灣海峽，判刑二個月，易科罰金才六萬元。2019年富商之子偷渡來臺灣，結果是根本不起訴，直接遣返。本席要請教次長，就法務部立場，這會不會讓中國覺得操作灰色侵擾的代價很低？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，事實上我稍微瞭解一下，我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候，如剛剛委員所垂詢的，是不是有橫向聯繫？事實上，地檢署、調查局跟國安單位都有相關聯繫，剛剛討論的那個案子，我們士檢的國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["黃次長世杰：我想當然會視相關案件的情節而有不一樣的處置，事實上，歷年來的偷渡案件比委員所……"],["林委員楚茵：書面上的數字還多？"],["黃次長世杰：相關案件數還要更多，但是並非全部都不起訴，事實上，包含簡易判決處刑的起訴案件跟一般通常程序起訴的案件加總，是遠遠超過不起訴，但是相關情勢如果變更，譬如有時候國家認為在這方面的嚇阻需要提高、加強，相關部會主管的法規需要修正，法務部都會樂意協助。"],["林委員楚茵：好，除了修改法規之外，本席把這樣的法條找出來，是因為可以易科罰金，然後科五十萬元以下，但是你看看判出來的結果，因為刑期很低，所以金額也就相對偏低，本席認為要不要修法可以再考慮，但是在判刑上，如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖侵擾臺灣的安危，那麼在判刑上應該要予以加重，這個是本席認為的。"],["黃次長世杰：是，地檢署這邊也會加強跟國安資訊的連通，如果真的有委員所說的是跟灰色地帶入侵有關的案件，我們掌握相關證據的話，會在起訴的時候，具體向法官求刑，但是這還是要看案件的事實來決定，以上跟委員報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳永康","林楚茵","黃仁","沈伯洋","王定宇","羅美玲","洪申翰","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","李坤城","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","黃國昌","張啓楷","羅智強","林憶君","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長報告「國家如何運用民間通信設施蒐羅國安資\n訊」，併請國家通訊傳播委員會、中華電信股份有限公司列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.31784375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.14471875,"end":2.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.312843750000001,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.73034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主席有請中華電信請中華電信林副總"},{"start":11.854,"end":20.858,"text":"副總長我們今天的題目當然是叫做我們的國家如何來運用民間的設備來收集相關的國安資訊不過剛剛前面有委員用連連看的方式來質疑說這個有個叫市方電信的現在是不是意圖不軌的來蒐集國家的情報或者是蒐集人民的個資我先請問一下市方電信跟中華電信之間是什麼樣的關係除了是子公司之外業務上面有往來嗎"},{"start":42.397,"end":70.255,"text":"開麥克風不要緊張業務上面是什麼樣的關聯跟委員報告業務上就是我們在IDC租賃上那個在市場上共同去面向客戶取得客戶的這個IDC租賃業務還有那個電路的出租業務好所以說在業務上是合作關係還是市方跟中華電信來承租或是中華電信來跟市方承租"},{"start":71.936,"end":88.797,"text":"市方有自己獨立的這個IDC機房的建置,中華電信也有自己的IDC機房,但是客戶的需求可能會有不同,所以我們是集團公司依照客戶的需求來提供不同類型或等級的IDC服務。"},{"start":89.358,"end":103.318,"text":"言下之意就是一種策略聯謀好那我就明確的說中華電信有沒有資料放在市方電信裡面就是中華電信的客戶資料有存在市方的所謂的IDC裡面嗎?包委沒有"},{"start":105.822,"end":134.447,"text":"如果沒有的話剛剛的委員質詢說有沒有可能洩漏情資的時候你不是應該要明確的說出來嗎?要把這樣的關係講清楚否則這種連連看沒有證據馬上就變成什麼傳出去那就好像變成是中華電信跟釋放電信一起來情搜或是收羅民間的資訊喔所以我再問一次中華電信的客戶資料有存在釋放電信的IDC裡頭嗎?"},{"start":135.627,"end":141.431,"text":"主席有請國安局蔡局長我想其實今天對於民眾來說最重要的當然還是安全的維護的部分那麼其實我想要救教局長的部分就是其實是不是利用這個端午節假期中共所發動的灰色青老"},{"start":162.586,"end":177.756,"text":"其實在持續當中本席想要把這個快艇的事件往前推其實在6月8號的時候中國的無人機其實到金門去發送傳單甚至於在抖音上面有直播主直接就說他們要直接來侵擾金門"},{"start":180.578,"end":201.236,"text":"這從6月8號到6月9號兩個事件國安局怎麼看?國安局認為這事件當中有關聯性嗎?又或者是其實這個就是中國的灰色衝突的一個持續的上升其實是有步驟有計劃性的而國安局這裡有掌握一定的情資嗎?好這大概分兩個部分一個是整體中共對台灣的灰色地道"},{"start":201.736,"end":203.096,"text":"臺海周邊水域進行執法巡查的動作．加上偶爾包括這一次的"},{"start":231.423,"end":231.583,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":246.62,"end":270.522,"text":"整體的態勢判斷來講我們認為這確實不能排除是中共有系統有計劃的灰色地帶洗腦的活動這是第一部分那第二部分是針對個案的部分那針對個案的部分管局這邊我們會統合我們各個情報單位跟視同情報機關來收集相關不同的個案那以淡水這個個案來講因為這一次這個當事人這個嫌疑人他具有解放軍的背景"},{"start":270.822,"end":294.127,"text":"所以這部分我們會透過我們的國安系統來瞭解跟查查他這個解放軍背景在這一次快艇侵入事件的意涵還有背後有沒有中共操作的手法在裡面好從局長的回答就知道說這一切其實都在掌握之中但重點就在於在國安局的掌握之中訊息有沒有橫向的連結到包括我們現在講的海巡署或等等主席不好意思我要請海巡署對先海巡局長你先留步"},{"start":300.612,"end":302.233,"text":"我想這是本期一直以來的統計數字"},{"start":307.654,"end":308.734,"text":"中國的非法船隻不斷的就是親門套戶的狀況底下"},{"start":337.42,"end":363.608,"text":"對於這一次．直接有所謂的解放軍背景的人．直接划著小艇進入淡水河口．這樣的過程當中．難道說國安局的資料沒有給海巡嗎?報告委員．有關這部分的話．海巡署要20小時全天候在待命．在堅征海面目標．那這部分我們跟國安局等等相關情報單位．都平時都保持密切的聯繫"},{"start":364.727,"end":384.74,"text":"那麼怎麼會發現這個從發現到這個確定逮捕而且是發生了衝突之後中間的這個空白的50分鐘這到底彼此之間發生什麼樣的狀態不能說是因為這個我們的第一線的弟兄是從別的地方調過來所以不熟悉我相信這個絕對不是理由跟藉口"},{"start":385.14,"end":403.107,"text":"而是面對中國不斷的提升所謂灰色地帶的非法傳資直接越界進入家門這樣的狀況難道說我們沒有一個好的判斷的方式嗎?一定得要發生衝突或者是臨近的漁船或是我們本國的漁船來通報之後才會了解狀況嗎?"},{"start":406.67,"end":420.028,"text":"跟委員報告,這個案子我們事後來檢討評估在海軍的徵收系統完全是正常,絕對沒有漏接我們在陸海裡就發現因為當時海面上武器燒船隻我們第一線的雷達操作員"},{"start":421.97,"end":439.983,"text":"誤判為是進港的正常傳播他也有通報安檢所跟守望哨全程監控在11點10分靠碼頭之後就馬上逮捕當然這個案子具有高風險所以我們不僅加強教育訓練我們也引進各式各樣的徵收設備來用科技撫行"},{"start":440.583,"end":461.146,"text":"好,所以局長,我想齁,這個部分我想要了解的是,國安局回答得非常好,那麼對於整體的狀況也有掌握,但是橫向的連結跟聯繫的時候,當你們看到這樣的個案,未來會不會更積極主動彼此做一些聯繫呢?應該的,應該的,因為這部分我剛有跟陳冠廷委員有說明過,"},{"start":461.727,"end":486.875,"text":"國安會也有召開跨部會議在檢討這個個案到底還有沒有哪些可以測近的作為就這個個案來講像剛剛海巡署所說明的因為他的船身不大大概只有7公尺的小船那這種小船海巡署的雷達可以在6海里外就發現這個相關的漲收程度已經算是相當相當不錯當然船隻的噸位更大可以在更遠的水域就預先來警覺到他"},{"start":487.355,"end":490.636,"text":"其實本席希望的是橫向的聯繫當中如果以國安局為首的話要把它整體的把它組織起來因為就像我提到它其實不是一個6月9號的個案"},{"start":511.664,"end":531.203,"text":"請偵測"},{"start":535.194,"end":558.742,"text":"本席稍微整理了一下這近10年來中國偷渡的人數當然現在都是比較是個位數字但是是不是因為我們的法規太輕了以入出境管理局的第74條可以懲處5年以下有期徒刑那一顆罰金50萬但是如果回到判例來看我就舉三個判例從2023年的這個中國盛信男子"},{"start":561.823,"end":589.358,"text":"有有到小金門一顆罰金可以一顆罰金但判4個月12萬台幣大概呢人民幣大概就2萬多不到3萬如果到2021年那麼這個大陸中國的福建省航行11小時到台灣海峽的話是判刑2個月一顆罰金才6萬那到2019年的富商之子偷渡來台灣根本就是不起訴直接遣返"},{"start":589.798,"end":616.606,"text":"本席質詢要問舊法務部來看這個會不會是讓中國如果要灰色侵擾這個代價很低阿是跟委員報告事實上我有稍微了解一下我們的檢察官在辦理相關案件的時候首先剛剛委員所關於追尋的是不是有橫向聯繫那地檢署跟調查局事實上跟國安都有相關的聯繫那剛剛在討論這個案子的我們的這個事檢國安專責檢察官也在積極偵辦中"},{"start":618.607,"end":618.687,"text":"林楚茵"},{"start":637.193,"end":637.213,"text":"好"},{"start":652.386,"end":681.356,"text":"除了修改法規之外其實本席把這樣的法條找出來的原因是說他其實是可以一顆罰金然後50萬以下但是你看所判出來的因為刑期很低所以說金額也就相對的偏低本席認為是不是要修法可以再考慮但是我認為在判刑上面如果他已經是敵對勢力意圖要侵擾台灣的安危的話其實在判刑上面應該要予以來加重這個是本席認為的"},{"start":682.076,"end":683.496,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"153810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8190fd62835c16f0a3625a148732a468ab6139eec4d40364b4f38f9d5c79002bdd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:40:45 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09:53:40","影片長度":"00:12:55","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部、內政部警政署列席就「如何有效防制毒品入侵校園及減少霸凌案件」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:40:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T09:53:40+08:00","duration":775,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":217,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時40分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請部長還有法務部代表和警政署代表，總共3位好不好？"],["主席：請3位官員就備詢台。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝3位。首先是不是可以請教育部長、法務部代表和警政署代表承諾堅決反對大麻合法化？部長，你可以率先承諾嗎？部長，現在不是在做學術討論啦！你是不是可以堅決反對大麻合法化？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然，現在我們法令的規定就是堅決反對！"],["柯委員志恩：好，那我們的警政署呢？"],["蔡警政監坤益：報告委員，警政署也同意。"],["柯委員志恩：好，那我們法務部呢？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，有關於大麻非法這個部分，依照法務部向來的政策，它是不可能合法化的……"],["柯委員志恩：對！"],["郭司長永發：所以它也是我們「安居緝毒」的查緝重點。"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯！","為什麼我要請3位代表一定要承諾反對？因為目前其實有非常多人認為，不管是歐美或泰國等鄰近國家，都認為應該讓大麻合法化，很多國家有這個趨勢，發現問題之後才開始反對，美國很多不同的州就在做這樣的事情，所以我想我們先確立這樣的一個原則。","接下來我就分別請問了。請問部長，之前就有媒體報導認為大麻竄起，我特別強調「大麻竄起」，在大學裡面幾乎已經是每個人都很清楚，現在大學生還有很多年輕朋友吸食大麻變成是一種時尚。當媒體這樣報導的時候，教育部馬上就做出回擊，告訴大家根據統計，藥物濫用的校安通報是下降的。","現在就來看看教育部給我們的數字，的確啦，從108年到112年，藥物濫用校安通報的次數是下降的，但是校園的黑數非常多，目前為止我們所瞭解的是，大麻的查緝數量是10年前的18倍。我特別指稱大麻，因為大麻被我們列為二級毒品，但是因為太多人出國了，所以很多人對它的認知慢慢開始鬆散，甚至有一位精神科醫生署名表示他有個案已經出現幻聽、幻覺，而且這位個案特別提出來說他系上有一半的人都在吸食大麻。這件事情固然有待考據，可是這個醫生我查過了，他的確是醫院真實的醫生。他為什麼要爆出這樣一個個案？因為他認為這個事情非常的嚴重。","我接下來就要問：大麻到底去哪裡了？我請3位可以代表來回應的。你們看，2023年3月，高檢署示警大麻查獲量4年增加近8倍；2024年6月7日，高檢署又非常驚人地告訴我們，他們2023年的查獲量較2022年增加了將近50%。誰可以來回答這個問題？然後接下來我還要問一個：在地檢署辦理的大麻案件當中，施用人數與查獲量完全不成比例，可見黑數是的確存在的。這個誰可以來回應一下？所以部長，你剛剛說教育部藥物濫用的校安通報是下降的，是這樣子嗎？這個黑數到底有多少？誰能告訴我們？我們是不是可以請法務部？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，就如同剛剛跟委員報告的，法務部對大麻這幾年來是全力在查緝，會有那麼大的量就是因為……"],["柯委員志恩：是！"],["郭司長永發：就是因為包括我們司法警察機關全力查緝。至於這個黑數的問題，確實存在著施用人口黑數的問題，因為大麻施用的人口結構上，它是比較高的白領階級……"],["柯委員志恩：白領、高社經、有留學背景，對不對？然後通常在自家使用，如果學生沒有去報案的話，幾乎大家都不會把它當一回事，這就是問題，然後你們怎麼查？"],["郭司長永發：所以跟委員報告，這幾波的安居緝毒計畫就針對施用人口黑數做有系統的查緝。"],["柯委員志恩：那有辦法嗎？你看這個差距很大耶！"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，112年，就是去年那一年，施用人數總共查獲802個。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，這邊有啊！就在上面啊！"],["郭司長永發：是，這個部分我們也是……"],["柯委員志恩：你們覺得25%跟你們的查獲量，我還是一句話啦！司長，完全是不成比例。我們往下看，這個我要給部長看，大麻流竄其實最大的問題是網路隨便可以看到耶！你看，我這個完全是用Twitter，它後來改名X的頻道，各位、部長看這個，這都是在臺灣喔！這全部都在臺灣，我只拿出1%而已喔！隨處可見，告訴你什麼地方、什麼地點、你可以用什麼樣的產品、你要找什麼樣的人，我們對這些事情束手無策，幾乎網路全部都可以查到這些訊息，誰能夠告訴我怎麼樣救救我們這些青年、大學生或者是青少年？部長，這是事實喔！這是臺灣的喔！你隨時可以拿到啊！網路上隨便google都可以找得到，這個怎麼辦？這是一個非常大的問題耶！部長，你現在已經發現……難怪你需要到年底，如果照這種樣態來說的話，可能給你時間都不夠用，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的提醒，我想大麻這些從學校到警政、到社政、到醫療，我們是一個共同合作的單位。也跟委員報告，其實大麻大量的查緝，事實上也感謝我們的海關……"],["柯委員志恩：是啦！我知道……"],["鄭部長英耀：邊境、海關，因為他查獲……"],["柯委員志恩：問題是那是上游，我當然知道，但是到你校園來說，當你發現學生有大麻或在宿舍裡面有大麻的話，警政要進入我們校園裡面其實也不太容易，因為要經過一連串的過程，所以這個東西就更加速整個校園裡面使用大麻被查緝的困難度。剛剛司長也特別提到，很多都是來自白領階層，然後都在家裡使用，這個如果沒有鄰居報案，沒有聞到那個味道，你對味道敏感的話，根本就是大家嗨了一晚就沒事了，然後5天當中有3天還繼續嗨，這是一個很大的問題。部長，我只是提醒你，我們現在的樣態已經是非你所能夠控制的，更不要說電子煙，我們來看電子煙。你應該不抽電子煙，可是你知道電子煙已經入侵校園了嗎？而且我要問法務部一下，電子煙裡面有一個叫做依托咪酯的物質，用於電子煙當中，而且會成癮，而且你成癮的話沒有辦法思考，然後就像僵屍一樣，很多民眾檢舉了，為什麼我們動作這麼慢？法務部要不要來討論一下，你們什麼時候討論要把它列為我們所謂的三級毒品，什麼時候？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，我們明天的毒……"],["柯委員志恩：對嘛！我就知道你要講明天，我就是因為查到你明天，我今天特別問你這個問題。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["柯委員志恩：其他各國早就把它列為三級毒品，我們法務部到現在還跟我說明天，你覺得你們會不會太慢了？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，因為我們列為毒品的品項有一定的流程，就是……"],["柯委員志恩：別的國家沒有流程喔？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，因為在5月份的時候，食藥署那邊已經列為管藥，接下來……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你是明天嘛！對不對？"],["郭司長永發：是明天。"],["柯委員志恩：明天變成三級毒品，我還是認為慢很多，每個人都有流程，你這個流程就慢很多，耽誤我們的學生，而且我說一下，部長，你知道有非常多的學生同儕在炫耀，本來還有一個叫菸彈，3個100塊，但是因為含有毒品，現在一個要價2,000到2,500，蔓延的速度非常快，學生還會集資來購買。以你們各位的思維，再看看我們現在這麼靈活的學生，加上網路這個東西，我們真的是落伍非常的多，這是我很擔心的。謝謝警政單位，請回。","我接下來要問一下霸凌的問題，霸凌實在讓我非常的痛心。謝謝，警政單位可以先回去一下，法務部都回去。部長，我隨便列舉，你看看，桃園國二學生長期受到霸凌，上到一半絕望墜樓，阿嬤哭得要死，350萬的醫療費都付不出來，隔代教養，我知道你聽了也會非常的痛心，然後我們就要問嘛！這又不是長期的，我都以為在看韓劇耶！看到韓劇，我覺得韓國人怎麼這麼可惡，一看網路上都是我們臺灣的耶！長期霸凌，校方為什麼沒有發現？通報系統出了什麼問題？家長都不知道，學校輔導處怎麼可能允許一個女學生被霸凌到這種程度沒有人知道，然後用跳樓來凸顯霸凌的黑暗面？還有明星學校，這是小三的學生，都是傷，然後老師還公審他，要叫他跟全班來道歉，因為他去檢舉老師。類似像這樣的事情，部長看了會不會很痛心？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我當然痛心。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是痛心，然後我們來看看你們這些所謂的經費來說，經費每一年都在下降，跟剛剛講的我們一起來討論。你知道嗎？為什麼我們要特別說？你去看看很多學生使用毒品被誘騙的情況。你們說你們花了很多經費做很多宣導，我告訴你宣導的結果是什麼，宣導的結果學生的認知完全是，人家免費提供新興的毒品，有25%認為OK，這是免費的，還有很多人認為不會被驗出、沒有刑責、不會成癮，別人在騙他的時候，他都這麼認為，然後我們的教育部還有一些反毒的宣導，還給了一堆經費，這些經費還不到位，難怪這些學生被誘騙。","部長，我也知道你從小學任教，當過地方的教育局長，你也當過大學校長，我很清楚，但是你看看我們現在的經費是逐年下降，我們的預算已經下降了，我們的決算更是沒有辦法，然後你看經費不斷地下降，我們很多地方老師的輔導單位，我們一般的查緝單位，再再都沒有到位。部長，我說實在，我以前在大學也申請了經費，紫荊花……見鬼了，那到底對我們大學生有什麼效果，現在是連申請都申請不到，這要怎麼辦？所以你剛剛答應洪孟楷三個月，我某種程度還滿贊同你到年底的，因為這些樣態太多了，否則你給我們的都會是一些很表象的，都告訴我們有，你光是看經費，光是看樣態，還有包括我們之後怎麼樣去輔導他們的認知，你看學生還認為說不會被判刑喔！不會成癮喔！免費給你喔！你看他的認知跟我們宣導的項目差距多大。它的預算下降，我都認為如果預算沒有用在刀口，不太會用到刀口上的話，給這麼多預算也沒有用，部長，你同意吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：同意，我想怎麼讓預算真正用在刀口上，發揮它的效益跟品質……"],["柯委員志恩：認知上面，不同的階段裡面有不同的認知，我個人覺得如果你沒有給大學生一個意義、一個方向的話，大麻對學生來說已經超乎你想像之外，也有很多不同的管道。","最後要請問你，請問學生輔導法什麼時候送上來？都已經快要結束了，從潘部長到你現在，我們的學生輔導法到目前為止我們都還沒有看到，你們不斷地承諾……部長，我只是告訴你，如果你們院版再不進來，我們委員會就直接排審了，我們已經不等了，可以嗎？部長，因為這環環相扣，包括我們的輔導人力，包括我們各級的一些輔導單位，配合我剛剛所說學校的霸凌，如果沒有好好來做一套管制，一套這樣子的部分的話，我們很難……就是只能片斷、表層的來處理，這完全沒有辦法杜絕校園的毒品跟霸凌，你同意吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意。"],["柯委員志恩：好，那就請催促行政院趕快送出學生輔導法，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，官員請回座。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：謝謝，我們現在請我們的葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":272,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","羅廷瑋","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","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我們他們查獲量是從2000跟這個2022年比較起來是增加了將近50%誰可以來回答這個問題然後接下來我還要問一個問題是你們第1檢署辦理大麻的案件你們真假的失用的人數跟你查獲的量數是完全不符合比例的"},{"start":221.147,"end":235.193,"text":"那這個黑數的確存在啊這誰可以來回應一下所以部長你剛剛所說教育部的教育那個藥物濫用是下降是這樣子嗎我們再往前看保持前面那一張這個黑數到底有多少誰能告訴我們我們是不是可以請我們的法務部"},{"start":241.141,"end":263.739,"text":"跟委員報告因為就如同剛跟委員報告的法務部對大馬的查緝這幾年來是全力的在查緝所以會有那麼大的量是因為我們包括我們48警察機關全力的查緝那至於這個黑數的問題確實存在著施用人口黑數的一個問題因為大馬施用的人口結構上他是比較高白領"},{"start":264.6,"end":266.941,"text":"所以跟委員報告這幾波的NG企圖的計畫就針對有關於這一個私用人口的黑素座右系統的一個查緝那有辦法嗎?你看這個差距很大欸"},{"start":287.827,"end":312.083,"text":"跟委員報告就是一百一十二年就是去年那一年齁總共的適用人數查獲有八百零二個我知道這邊有啊這邊就在上面啊是那這個部門也是你們覺得25%跟你們查獲量我還是一句話啦完全司長完全是不成比例我們往下看啊這我要給部長來看大麻流竄其實最大的問題還是網路隨便可以看到啊你看"},{"start":313.086,"end":315.089,"text":"我還我這個是完全是用推特他後來改名X的頻道各位部長看這都是在臺灣這全部在臺灣我只拿出1%而已隨處可見到告訴你什麼地方什麼地點你可以用什麼樣的產品你要找什麼樣的人"},{"start":329.989,"end":330.269,"text":"這是一個非常大的一個問題"},{"start":352.438,"end":371.191,"text":"部長,你現在已經發現,難怪你需要到年底,如果照這種樣態來說的話,可能給你時間都不夠用,對不對?感謝委員的一個提醒,我想大麻這些的從學校到警政到社政到醫療,我們是一個共同合作的一個單位。"},{"start":373.453,"end":384.004,"text":"也跟委員報告其實大麻這個大量的一個查緝事實上也感謝我們這一個海關邊境海關因為他的查貨問題是那是上游我當然知道但是到你校園來說你看現在當你發現學生有大麻或在宿舍裡面有大麻的話"},{"start":392.853,"end":397.554,"text":"警政要進入我們校園裡面其實也不太容易因為要經過一連串的這樣的一個過程所以這個東西就更加速我們整個校園裡面使用的一個被查緝的一個困難度剛剛已經司長特別提到嘛很多都是來自白頂階層然後都在家裡使用的時候都會這個如果沒有鄰居報案沒有聞到那個味道你對味道敏感的話你根本就是大家嗨了一晚就沒事了然後五天當中有三天還繼續嗨這是個很大的問題"},{"start":421.798,"end":432.007,"text":"部長我只是提醒你我們現在目前已經到樣態已經是非你所能夠控制的更不要說我們說電子菸好不好我們來看這個電子菸你應該不抽電子菸可是你知道我們電子菸已經入侵校園了嗎而且我要問法務部一下依照電子菸裡面有一個叫做依托米紙的用於這個電子菸當中而且會成癮而且你成癮的話沒有辦法思考然後呢就會像殭屍盤一樣很多民眾檢舉了為什麼我們動作這麼慢"},{"start":449.022,"end":452.944,"text":"法務部要來討論一下,你們什麼時候討論要把它列為我們這個所謂的三級毒品,什麼時候?對嘛,我就知道你要講明天,我就是因為查到你明天我今天特別問你這個問題,其他的各國早就把它列為是一個三級毒品,我們法務部到現在還跟我說明天,你覺得你們會不會太慢了?"},{"start":468.872,"end":485.468,"text":"根委員報告因為我們這個列為毒品的品項有一定的流程就是毒品別人國家沒有流程喔根委員報告因為這個在5月份的時候食藥署那邊已經列為管藥所以你是明天嘛對不對明天變三級毒品"},{"start":485.768,"end":490.173,"text":"我還是認為賣奶多每個人都有流程你這個流程就賣很多當我們的學生而且我還 我說一下部長你知道有非常多的人這些學生同才在炫耀本來還有一個叫煙蛋原是三個一百塊但是因為含有毒品現在呢一個要價兩千到兩千五賣完的速度非常快學生還會有集資來購買"},{"start":507.452,"end":527.859,"text":"所以說呢以你們各位的思維再看看我們現在這麼靈活的學生教養網路這個東西我們真的是落伍非常的多這是我很擔心的謝謝警政單位請回我接下來問一下霸凌的問題這個霸凌想讓我非常的痛心啊這個部長完全謝謝我們警政單位可以先回去一下啊這個法務部都回去部長你看看嘛桃園我隨便列舉嘛你看國二的長期受到霸凌傷到一半絕望"},{"start":533.041,"end":541.925,"text":"罪樓、阿嬤、靠咖啡系、三百五十萬的醫療費都付不出來：隔代教養我知道你聽了也會非常的痛心然後呢我們就要問嘛這又不是長期的我都以為在看韓劇看到韓劇我覺得韓國人怎麼這麼可惡你看網路上都是我們台灣的長期霸凌下方為什麼沒有發現通報系統出了什麼問題家長都不知道學校輔導處怎麼可能允許一個女學生被霸凌到這種程度沒有人知道"},{"start":561.154,"end":570.256,"text":"還有用跳樓來凸顯霸凌的黑暗面．還有明星學校這是小三的學生被都是傷然後老師還公審他要向他跟全班來道歉因為他去檢舉老師類似這樣的事情部長看了會不會很痛心是我都很痛心"},{"start":580.419,"end":587.606,"text":"當然是痛心然後呢我們再看看你們所看到的這些所謂的經費來說然後呢經費每一年都在加碗我剛剛以剛剛我們一起來討論你知道嗎為什麼我要特別說你去看看很多學生使用毒品的時候被誘騙的情況你們說你們花了很多的經費在做很多的宣導我告訴你宣導的結果是什麼"},{"start":599.537,"end":603.381,"text":"學到結果就是學生的認知完全是他會被人家認為說免費提供新興的毒品有25%認為說OK這是免費的還有很多人認為說不會被驗出沒有刑責不會成癮"},{"start":614.634,"end":624.119,"text":"這是別人在騙他的時候他都這麼認為然後我們教育部還有一些反毒的宣導還給了一堆的經費這經費還不到位難怪這些學生被騙、被誘騙所以部長我也知道你從小到你從小學到你當過教育地方的教育局長你也當過到目前為止在大學當校長我很清楚但是你看看我們現在的經費是逐年下降我們的預算已經是下降了我們的決算更是沒有辦法"},{"start":644.11,"end":646.751,"text":"所以說呢 我說實在我以前在大學也 也申請了經費 那麼紫金花的見鬼了 我跟你說那到底對我們大學生有什麼效果 但是呢我們還是 那現在連申請都還申請不到"},{"start":666.855,"end":671.218,"text":"所以你剛答應洪孟楷三個月我某種程度還蠻贊同你到年底的因為這些太多樣態了否則你給我們的都會是一些很表象的都告訴我們有你光是看經費光是看樣態還有包括我們之後的怎麼樣去輔導我們的認知你看學生還認為說不會被判刑哦不會成癮哦免費給你哦"},{"start":689.949,"end":714.227,"text":"你看他的認知跟我們宣導的項目差距多大雖然他的預算下降我都認為如果預算沒有用到刀口不太會用到刀口上的話給這麼多預算也沒有用你同意吧部長我同意我想這個怎麼讓預算真正用在刀口上發揮他的一個效益跟品質認知上面不同的階段裡面有不同的認知我個人覺得大學生如果你沒有給他一個"},{"start":715.128,"end":715.608,"text":"委員會就直接排審了 我們已經不等了 可以嗎 部長"},{"start":744.131,"end":744.151,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":774.285,"end":774.305,"text":"謝謝關鍵情報"}]}},{"id":"153809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193601cd6352c23b25182e407f268492bc139eec4d40364b4f842b47c36b40ae4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:41:55 - 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謝謝所以我是覺得這裡面隱藏的風險非常的大好 那話說回來從另外一個角度來看那既然要管理慢慢的慢慢的我現在不是講馬上很久的未來之後有沒有可能成立公家的交易所"},{"start":252.214,"end":271.716,"text":"這個我們在國際上還沒有看到但是我們很多其實我們交易所大部分都不是政府在做包括我們現在證券也大家都不是對啦那我的意思是說就算不是至少是交易所吧類似證券交易所期貨交易所有沒有可能有沒有可能往這個方向走呢"},{"start":272.416,"end":288.041,"text":"現在以現在發展其實還蠻原始的還是自發展但是我們像這種都是全世界都在發展過程當中但是主委你要知道全世界主要的交易所就算是證券啊什麼其他的交易所很多國家也都不是公家在做的是的那"},{"start":289.124,"end":316.703,"text":"台灣在我來看台灣的證券交易所、期貨交易所或是說這個OTC因為有政府強力的主管、監管而且它是一個特許行業所以我覺得它還蠻上軌道的啊是 這也是我們未來努力的方向我事實上現在想像10年後、20年後有沒有可能因為這裡面還可能涉及到稅率還可能涉及到如何的揭示如何的公告讓這大家能夠了解風險"},{"start":317.904,"end":346.73,"text":"等等這個 如果你把它一個正規化之後其實正規化有正規化很多的好處啊是的 像比如說像台灣的交易所櫃買就是很好成功的例子是透過櫃買或是交易所對於一些在那邊交易的上市櫃公司進行進行所謂的管理跟控管都是一個非常非常好的模式好當然所以這個未來也有可能朝這方向思考就是既然如果將來要把它納管"},{"start":347.827,"end":359.397,"text":"那將來是不是設計一套制度當然我是指很多年後現在還開始在算是原始時代還在那邊摸索還在那邊搞但是"},{"start":361.843,"end":385.843,"text":"其實另外一方面虛擬資產的交易金管會之前也是一直採取正面的看法所以也要另外還有一個證券化的問題所以這個是將來我覺得如果朝這方面能夠制定完整的制度也不見得是不好啊是好那先請你回座我們請這個法務部徐次長跟警政署的這個黃副局長徐政策黃副局長"},{"start":389.403,"end":397.32,"text":"委員長早兩位我所知道因為我來自法界現在"},{"start":398.55,"end":426.9,"text":"警界也好、檢察界也好甚至法院也好都為了這個詐欺欺犯罪多到這個程度痛不堪甚至有很多人當然這個是是不是這個因素這是一個猜測因為詐欺欺犯罪太多了辦不完就有的人辦到暗賭勞刑上次不是有檢察官發生輕生的事件嗎責任感太大然後案子辦不完士林地檢嘛還是士林地院、司法官那如果是這樣的話"},{"start":428.321,"end":432.882,"text":"到底有什麼方式可以降低這個詐欺的案件的這個量"},{"start":434.81,"end":463.602,"text":"報告委員之所以今天我們要動員所有的部會進來就是從源頭管制因為從源頭管制的話加強監管那很多的虛擬的人頭的才會減少那歹徒利用這些來擷取民眾的金錢那管道就會受到控制這是從源頭去那再來的話我們當然我們要我們司法單位要充分的合作案件數今年"},{"start":464.562,"end":483.187,"text":"的數量有比較減少嗎?還是增加更多?今年一到四月的案件量已經少了大概十幾...但是五月又上來了這個五月份的資料我還沒拿到市長還有副局長我覺得這裡面一個很大的問題是說現在網路上面這些廣告它的廣告它..."},{"start":487.403,"end":515.38,"text":"常常我舉個例子常常用名人誰越出名這個Meta上面就馬上就出現那個名人的這個股票投資群組等等這些的廣告那之前就一直有說可以跟這一些跨國的公司談條件談怎麼管理我跟你說韓國跟日本現在除了在國內提起訴訟之外還跑到美國去告Meta尤其是日本的這個"},{"start":517.563,"end":520.044,"text":"報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告報告"},{"start":545.319,"end":560.421,"text":"對啦 但是這些跨國的大公司齁 它也要鳥你嘛坦白講是這樣子啦 台灣的法律它大到大到沒辦法形容你知道嗎 落地國的法律它也不見得要遵守啊那當然之前一直跟它溝通"},{"start":561.75,"end":589.997,"text":"有些效力如果真正要防止這個東西要拿出肩膀出來不能夠是因為他是國際的這個巨大的這個公司然後你們就對他不能夠提出什麼比較強硬的做法嗎我跟委員報告我想這個當然主責不是我們法務部是書發部今天我看到新聞出來了就是這些相關的業者已經提出所謂的日出條款"},{"start":590.888,"end":615.548,"text":"他們已經有感受到如果這個法律過的話其實對他們來講在某些程度裡面是有一些抑制的作用我希望大家一起努力不是只有我們在查緝而已各方面都要努力要從根源斷不然案件越來越多是壓垮整個司法體系司法體系的工作人員也是很辛苦"},{"start":616.489,"end":639.243,"text":"每天查的案子都是類似的而且這個都有窩蜂的現象民國八十年我剛剛當法官的時候那時候刑事案件最多是西安美搭面跟千篤六合彩、大加勒所以都一死一死一死現在最多的應該就是詐欺案件了是所以大家努力吧是好 謝謝謝謝吳秉樂委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"153808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd819996ede7405a0029659a48fe1a1d57c38139eec4d40364b4f33cbce93769d80bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:31:46 - 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謝主席 崇文好您好 我們今天提出來的排除剛才在機密如何定義如何防範我另外在確保通訊本身通訊暢通安全的部分提出一部分的建議那在這個問題中間我想請我們的這個"},{"start":28.693,"end":42.204,"text":"通訊傳播委員會副主委還有我們的中華電信林副總經理請副主委還有中華電信林副總我有幾個想請教各位"},{"start":46.944,"end":67.09,"text":"我們一直在強調提升國家通信網路的韌性能力目前是由中華電信跟歐洲的通訊衛星子公司OneWeb簽署了我們很樂見在2024年那麼低軌衛星訊號可以覆蓋全台那我們從公開的情資顯示它是有"},{"start":67.91,"end":68.67,"text":"陳永康議員陳永康議員"},{"start":95.984,"end":97.285,"text":"請問NCC跟中華電信有沒有這部分的了解?"},{"start":112.176,"end":132.695,"text":"對,等於企業部分不好那麼涉密,我們可能要請相關單位來做回答。委員長,那這個部分的話,確實是一個重點,就是在某一種disaster的狀況下面,它的系統容量會不會不足,或者它的coverage會不足,那這個部分的話,因為中華電信是one wave的台灣的代理,那請中華電信這邊來說明。好,謝謝。"},{"start":136.083,"end":159.179,"text":"發言委員,有關那個跟WEB那個簽署的這個部分,我想我們對服務的要求跟相關合約裡面對這些都會有相關的要求跟規範那回到整體通訊的那個安排的部分,我們在整體的這個陸海空泊各方面的solution也都自己在尋求,那能夠提高我們整個的網路韌性,以上報告"},{"start":159.984,"end":173.602,"text":"我特別提供一個建言當然你在合約框架裡面我特別講出就是不可抗力因素因為我們跟國外簽約一定最後一個就是說暫時他不保證這條是不是在不可抗力因素裡面在proviso裡面"},{"start":175.084,"end":197.067,"text":"謝謝委員的指導,我們再回去檢視這個部分是什麼樣的一個要求,謝謝我們這次速發部做獨島,中華電信做協作應變或暫時應用新興科技,強化通訊網路這個韌性的計畫我們是希望確保指揮體系在戰爭或是大規模災害的時候能夠支援政府"},{"start":197.648,"end":198.969,"text":"中共對台灣可能會做出什麼手法﹖"},{"start":221.482,"end":236.911,"text":"因為從400公里甚至200公里到2000公里大概隨時都有30到50枚低軌衛星通過因為我們的上空的空間有限那麼OneWeb衛星通過的安全餘力希望能夠掌握我把後面的限制因素向大家報告"},{"start":238.533,"end":262.472,"text":"經過評估,發射干擾頻率是可以干擾OneWeb的終端設施正常運作。我們面對的挑戰是暫時可能有受阻的現實,這個是有受通信。那麼未來中共的低軌衛星會有變軌的能力,那麼它的通知戰術靈活多變,就是說我們在本島周遭可能會有變成透明化,你會面對。"},{"start":264.322,"end":290.693,"text":"另外就是6G的時代手機直通這個低軌衛星那中共運用覆蓋福建沿海地區他申請向國際這個通訊這個組織申請的這個涵蓋範圍可能會排擠到我們在台灣地區one web的軌道那這個東西將來就沒有辦法有效的運用低軌衛星這個我是提醒NCC跟中華電信特別要注意這個"},{"start":291.977,"end":308.714,"text":"那下面我請資通電軍的指揮官兩位可以請回我特別談到現在因為未來無人的系統不管是無人機無人艇它所有的這是一個趨勢但是有效的運用還是在通訊"},{"start":309.855,"end":328.511,"text":"所以涵蓋的範圍、電池頻譜這個保密措施我想在國軍來講自通電軍要承擔很大的責任也要相助、協助各個軍種在這個領域繼續強化尤其是整合感測器、平台跟決策流程那我們訊息的優勢利用科技"},{"start":329.272,"end":332.275,"text":"中華電信股份有限公司列席．併請國家通訊傳播委員會．併請國家通訊傳播委員會．併請國家通訊傳播委員會．併請"},{"start":350.234,"end":378.69,"text":"而不是這些載台先交給你國軍的你另外再申請頻道那那個時候在暫時有效運用上就比較難以發揮它的效益了那我最後用這張圖來向大家說明這個是中共的北斗衛星那實際上它是軍用、民用甚至中國大陸所有的公務船舶海上交通甚至漁船都有北斗那這個另外呢"},{"start":380.014,"end":393.23,"text":"海事衛星的通訊那是另外一個品質現在比較困擾的是低軌衛星各位看看這張圖低軌衛星我們把最近低軌衛星顯示整個涵蓋全球了"},{"start":395.882,"end":414.399,"text":"中國大陸是高度重視太空產業,它把視為中國的綜合國力之一。一家上海的藍劍虹型科技公司,最近向國際電信聯盟提出了一個重磅的計劃,在未來要發射1萬顆。"},{"start":416.532,"end":445.368,"text":"這個紅湖三號它是一個巨型的星座衛星系統那將來它的目的是超越這個STARLINK那事實上在2021年呢大陸已經批准了一個叫做國網12992顆衛星另外G60星鏈12000個衛星這都在持續施放那這些東西為什麼在我們這個有限的低軌衛星的空間會產生排擠所以這個是要我們要特別注意的"},{"start":446.862,"end":471.6,"text":"有效的頻寬運用跟安全措施以及跟國軍有效掌握暫時它的無人機能不能有效運用甚至可以用低軌衛星不只是低軌向中軌做 relay或是低軌之間用雷射 relay這個都是未來我們面對的挑戰這個部分我們特別請資通電軍還有國安局在保密的部分提供最大的協助請局長做一點回應"},{"start":473.261,"end":500.754,"text":"謝謝陳委員的關切那就怎麼樣來強化我們國家的通訊的韌性跟安全呢事實上是有跨部會的機制在進行規劃或協調那我們的中低軌衛星的發展也不是只有英國這一家OneWeb還有其他的國際廠商都有在做相關的一個合作計畫的評估那對於中共確實正如委員所提到的這幾年它不斷的跟ITEO申請它的低軌衛星計畫我前一陣子才算過大概申請了"},{"start":501.954,"end":502.274,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":532.538,"end":557.256,"text":"根據了解就是一顆低軌衛星大概約有2000個終端用戶那如果他能夠把這個地區整個把它飽和化那我們可以使用的這個空間就是軌道通過的時間單位同時有幾顆衛星會受到排擠那這個我們努力的空間不管服務8號服務9號那另外最後還提醒注意中華電信特別一個重要的就是海嵐"},{"start":558.197,"end":559.157,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員"}]}},{"id":"153807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd81961bf8b24b14e4da00fec08313b105ec0139eec4d40364b4f2100f0c7800c801b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:39:51 - 09:51:18","影片長度":"00:11:27","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教育部首長就「為掌握生成式AI等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化AI生態系及充實AI人才與產業AI化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用AI賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧未來」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及6月13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:39:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T09:51:18+08:00","duration":687,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時40分）謝謝主席，召委，我們請主委。"],["主席：我們再請國發委主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，我想我第一次也是在這個地方，當時我跟你談的就是AI的研發中心，也就是黃仁勳執行長他一直希望在臺南、在高雄有一個AI研發中心，所以我們也希望國發會要怎麼樣去掌握這樣的訊息，然後我們要怎麼去push，然後把這樣一個所謂的AI研發中心可以留在臺南，現在我們也希望它擴大變成生態園區，這是現在政府非常重要的一個指標，叫生態園區。可是這個生態園區，我相信在臺南的部分，我們有很多，包括綠能科技產業園區，也就是在沙崙，然後再加上我們的南科，再加上我們目前所有的一些電力、水力的部分，在整個條件當中，我們認為設在臺南是非常適當的，可是針對AI生態園區，到底現在我們的目標在哪裡？重點在哪裡？預算在哪裡？數發部一下子說要實體，一下子說可以虛擬，然後國科會說他們都可以配合，因為他們本來在南科園區就有這樣一個所謂相關AI的產業，所以他們沒有問題，那國發會呢？你們的態度是如何？你們的態度是如何？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的態度現在是積極的跟數發部、國科會，我們一起來合作啦，臺南的部分的確像委員所講的，我很佩服委員，您一直在爭取臺南，然後也一直把臺南的優勢不斷地讓我們清楚，所以我們現在感受得也很深。我們現在在評估階段，我們一定不會忘記委員特別一直跟我們強調的臺南的好處，我們會認真的來考慮這一點。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為現在整個護國神山所有它的機能，還有它所有的零星產業，基本上都落腳在臺南，而且我們有我們的腹地，所以如果在這樣的前提之下，我覺得我們的態度要更確認，到底AI的生態園區，它是要實體還是虛擬？實體跟虛擬不一樣耶。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們現在是這樣子，實體跟虛擬都會同時存在的原因是，在AI的世界裡面，它必須串聯全世界，所以我們除了會建立實體的中心之外，我們也會，我想數發部也積極在建立一個國際脈絡的聯網，包括讓沒辦法進入園區的一些單位也都可以參與進來，變成一個整合性的虛實整合的AI生態園區。"],["陳委員亭妃：那土地重不重要？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：土地重要啊，就是有實體的地方可以做更好的討論。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以這兩者會同時並行，就我的了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：土地重要？那經費呢？經費來源呢？國發基金。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：經費來源我們現在是，第一個，國發基金，我們現在正在作業中啦，如果得到核准的話，我們會有100億投到這個領域來，至於硬體的部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們現在預估，在AI生態園區，在實體的部分，我們預計要投入的是國發基金100億的預算？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且100億主要是在投資創新創業，就是進駐廠商，還有虛擬進駐廠商的投資。至於硬體的部分，其實現在因為公建預算正在審核當中，我們也請各單位儘快的提出來，進入我們的審核程序。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以主委，你的意思是說，國發基金這100億，我們是希望創新創業進入到這樣一個實體的生態園區，然後在其他各部會的部分，我們還會再另外編列相關的預算？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後進入到這個AI的方向，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以不止100億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不止，公建預算是另計，那現在等實體，我們是審核單位，所以我們有幾個單位在規劃上面，從國科會跟數發部，他們會送上這樣一個公建計畫，在於實體的建設上……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以國科會是負責實體，然後數發部是負責虛擬，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，他們都會有實體的運作。"],["陳委員亭妃：都有實體的運作？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：那你要瞭解數發部，數發部最近所講的並不是如此，它所講的是它要把實體變虛擬。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也許是不是可以讓數發部次長來說明？"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，到底你們現在的態度是什麼？如果以主委所說的，我們是實體跟虛擬同步並進，可是你們最近在媒體當中所講的被誤解為實體要變虛擬，你們負責的是虛擬。"],["林次長宜敬：是，跟委員報告，因為在政府的分工上面，國發會會負責包含臺灣的硬體產業及軟體產業，而我們數發部負責的是軟體產業，然後軟體產業有一個特性……"],["陳委員亭妃：對嘛，所以你們數發部負責的就是在虛擬的部分嘛。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：實體也有嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：實體的部分，因為我們現在的重點是在於生態，而不在於園區，軟體產業的特性是：第一個，上下游產業之間並沒有零組件運輸的需求，所以上下游的產業並不需要在同一個地方；再來，軟體產業現在遠距上班也都是常見的現象，所以我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以次長你的意思是，你們數發部負責的就是虛擬的部分？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以沒有實體的部分？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：對不對？"],["林次長宜敬：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，所以就有一點不一樣了，我們現在看到的確實是如此，數發部從實體變虛擬。現在實體聚落的部分、實體生態園區到底是誰在負責？國科會嗎？國科會也講得有一點保守，它說他們的產業園區都可以配合，他們是就目前的狀態，但是如果依照主委所講的，我們是要做大，除了國發基金以外，我們還有公建計畫，這是不同的，所以我們的方向到底怎麼拿捏？國科會，實體的部分是你們負責的嗎？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。跟委員報告，基本上我們還是會以沙崙為中心點，因為目前它整個開發其實還不如預期，所以委員您剛剛所談到的這些，未來會有一個data center，裡面會有超級電腦，專門做AI的研究；另外，剛才委員所提到的AI生態園區也應該會以沙崙為中心，然後再往南部擴散，目前都還在規劃中。以上報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為沙崙有中央研究院南部院區，又有國科會相關的研發地點，所以我們看到的是綠能科技產業園區在沙崙，把這塊土地放在這裡是很可惜的，還有成大、交通大學這些研發的能量都在裡面，但是並沒有發揮呀！所以我為什麼要爭取AI的生態園區設在臺南？當然就是在沙崙這個區塊嘛！從過去到現在我們看到的是能量沒有發揮，如果是這樣子的話，再加上有些隱形產業，我們必須是實體跟虛擬並進，是不是？一個負責實體，一個負責虛擬，這樣才對嘛！然後國發會是know-how、做串聯，是不是這樣子？"],["林副主任委員法正：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們期待的AI生態園區除了有像黃仁勳執行長所說的，它必須是AI的研發中心，它可以併進來，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：嗯。"],["陳委員亭妃：它可以讓1加1大於2。如果有這樣一個生態園區，再投注原本預期的計畫及目標，對我們來講是加分，所以我覺得AI生態園區在整個地理位置、經費當中最適合的就是臺南，就在沙崙，這非常地清楚，主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我會負責整合兩個部會的結果，再跟您報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，再拜託。還有一個部分，我們……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對於您的誠意我們一直感受很深。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我覺得我們臺南欠缺的就是一個整合，如果把它整合起來，我們的能量是無限大，我們有那個條件，但是缺了一個整合。","我覺得今天有一點還是要澄清清楚。請問經濟部部長，外媒說臺灣缺電會衝擊全球的產業，基本上我覺得今天起碼臺灣的經濟能量、企業能量是被外媒所看到的，這個對我們來講是好的，可是因為被看到，大家會擔心我們是不是會有缺電的問題。部長，我們應該準備好了，尤其我們現在要投注AI，AI的用電非常大，這個部分我們準備好了沒？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，準備好了。"],["陳委員亭妃：準備好了，所以我們不會像外媒所講的，會因為缺電而影響到我們整個全球產業……因為大家已經把臺灣變成是一個全球產業、包括半導體的指標了，這對我們來講其實是非常棒的，可是他們擔心，我們要把他們的擔心斷絕，臺灣電的部分沒有問題，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，缺電影響全球是事實，但是我們沒有缺電。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們沒有缺電，我們準備好了，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在準備，應該是好的。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，我想AI產業如果進到整個整合的體系當中，電、水永遠都是最重要的，再麻煩部長。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請邱議瑩委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","邱議瑩","呂玉玲","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","林宜瑾","蔡易餘","羅智強","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","陳冠廷"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、國家科學及技術委員會首長、數位發展部首長、教\n育部首長就「為掌握生成式 AI 等關鍵技術帶來的產業革命機會，台灣要如何深化 AI 生態系及充\n實 AI 人才與產業 AI 化，促動台灣產業數位轉型與運用 AI 賦能升級，擴展產業發展，打造智慧\n未來」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.06471875,"end":2.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.98346875,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.133468750000002,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":19.57221875,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.49159375,"end":24.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.246593750000002,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.96784375,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.13159375,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.48909375000001,"end":76.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":77.38596875,"end":84.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.52409375,"end":84.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.57034375,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":91.40909375000001,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.72346875000001,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.00846875,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.54784375000001,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.16784375,"end":125.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.96909375000001,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.34471875,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":156.42846875,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.32284375,"end":163.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":163.95471875,"end":166.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.00909375,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":169.52346875,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.19721875000002,"end":179.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.12096875,"end":180.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.47534375,"end":206.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.26034375,"end":207.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.61034375000003,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":212.50409375,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":215.38971875000001,"end":218.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.61284375000002,"end":219.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":218.96721875,"end":219.84471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.35096875000002,"end":232.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.13409375,"end":240.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.48284375000003,"end":259.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":260.12534375,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":262.40346875,"end":277.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.58784375,"end":270.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.21971875,"end":277.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":277.69221875,"end":280.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.01659375,"end":281.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.50596875,"end":282.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":281.57346875,"end":283.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.69971875000005,"end":301.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":300.91221875,"end":307.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.68346875000003,"end":310.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":310.32846875,"end":311.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.17221875,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":312.03284375000004,"end":313.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":314.17596875000004,"end":317.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":318.49596875000003,"end":319.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":320.11596875000004,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.49096875000004,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.36846875000003,"end":326.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":326.46096875,"end":326.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.88284375,"end":327.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":326.93346875000003,"end":327.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":328.82346875,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":330.96659375,"end":332.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":333.24471875,"end":345.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.17096875000004,"end":358.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":358.20284375,"end":362.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.70846875,"end":363.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":362.97846875000005,"end":363.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.34534375000004,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.57409375000003,"end":385.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":385.59096875,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.90284375000005,"end":388.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.84284375000004,"end":395.34471875},{"speaker"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教委我們請主委我們再請國防委主委"},{"start":19.141,"end":49.021,"text":"委員長主委我想我第一次也在這個地方我跟你談的就是AI的研發中心也就是黃仁勳執行長他一直希望就是說在台南在高雄有一個AI研發中心所以我們也希望說我們的國發會要怎麼樣去掌握這樣的訊息然後我們要怎麼去push然後把這樣的一個所謂AI的研發中心可以留在台南"},{"start":50.302,"end":76.375,"text":"我們也希望現在擴大變成生態園區這是我們現在政府所非常重要的一個指標叫生態園區可是這個生態園區我相信在台南的部分我們有很多包括綠能科技產業園區也就是在沙崙然後再加上我們的南科"},{"start":77.415,"end":103.489,"text":"那再加上我們目前所有的一些電一些水利的部分在整個的條件當中我們認為在台南是非常適當的那可是我們的AI生態園區到底我們現在我們的目標在哪裡重點在哪裡預算在哪裡速發部一下子說要實體一下子說可以虛擬"},{"start":104.79,"end":119.819,"text":"然後呢國科會說他們都可以配合因為他們本來在南科園區就有這樣的一個所謂相關AI的產業他們沒有問題那國發會呢你們的態度是如何你們的態度是如何"},{"start":123.203,"end":151.556,"text":"我們的態度現在是積極的跟數發部跟國科會我們一起在合作那台南的部分的確像委員講的我想委員我很佩服您這一直在爭取台南然後也一直在把台南的優勢不斷的讓我們清楚所以我們現在感受的也很深那我們會去在最後評估我們現在在評估階段我們一定不會忘記委員特別一直跟我們銷售的台南的好處我們會認真的來考慮這一點"},{"start":152.403,"end":175.605,"text":"因為現在整個護國神山的所有它的機能還有它所有的零星產業基本上都落腳在台南而且我們有我們的腹地所以如果在這樣的一個前提之下我覺得我們的態度要更確認說到底AI的生態園區它是要實體還是虛擬"},{"start":178.637,"end":205.454,"text":"實體跟虛擬不一樣我們現在是這樣子實體跟虛擬都會同時存在的原因是在AI的世界裡面它必須串聯全世界所以我們除了會建立實體的中心之外我們也會我想數位發展部也在積極的建立一個國際的脈絡的聯網包括讓沒辦法進入園區的一些單位也都可以參與進來變成一個整合性的一個趨勢整合的一個AI生態園區"},{"start":206.314,"end":217.248,"text":"那土地重要嗎?土地重要就是有私底的地方可以做更好的討論那所以這兩者會同時並行土地重要經費呢?那經費來源呢?"},{"start":219.406,"end":239.239,"text":"經費來源是第一個國家基金我們現在正在作業中如果得到核准的話我們會有100億投到這個領域來所以我們現在預估在AI生態園區在實體的部分我們預計要投入的是國家發展基金100億的預算"},{"start":240.86,"end":259.637,"text":"而且100億主要是在投資創新創業就是進駐廠商還有在虛擬進駐廠商的投資那硬體的部分其實現在因為公建預算正在審核當中那我們也請各單位盡快的提出來進入我們的審核程序"},{"start":260.228,"end":283.1,"text":"所以主委你的意思是說國發基金這一百億我們是希望創新創業進入到這樣的一個實體的生態園區然後在其他各部會的我們還會再去另外編列相關的預算然後進入到這個AI的方向是不是所以不只一百億"},{"start":283.74,"end":309.27,"text":"不只,它這個工建預算是另計那現在在等實體,我們是審核單位所以我們有幾個單位在規劃上面從國科會跟數發部他們會送上這樣的一個工建計畫那在於實體的所以國科會是負責實體然後數發部是負責虛擬是這樣意思嗎?沒有,他們都有都會有實體的運作"},{"start":310.43,"end":321.78,"text":"都有實體的運作那你要了解速發部的速發部最近他所講的並不是如此他所講的是他要把實體變虛擬也許是不是可以讓速發部次長來說明"},{"start":328.871,"end":341.869,"text":"到底你們現在的態度是什麼如果以主委所說的我們是實體然後跟虛擬同步並進可是你們最近在媒體當中所講的是被誤解說實體要變虛擬你們負責的是虛擬"},{"start":346.255,"end":351.58,"text":"是 跟委員報告因為在政府的分工上面國發會這邊會負責包含台灣的硬體產業跟軟體產業而我們數發部負責的是軟體產業然後軟體產業一個特性對嘛 所以你們數發部負責的就是在虛擬的部分嗎是實體用嗎"},{"start":364.752,"end":384.725,"text":"實體的部分因為我們現在重點是在於生態而不在於園區那軟體產業的特性是第一個就是上下游產業之間並沒有零組件的運輸的需求所以上下游的這些產業並不需要在同一個地方再來就是說在軟體產業現在遠距上班也都是一種常見的現象所以我們這個"},{"start":385.666,"end":404.809,"text":"所以市長你的意思就是說是你們數發部負責就是虛擬的部分是所以沒有實體的部分是對不對好那主委所以就有一點不一樣囉所以我們現在看到的確實是如此嘛數發部從實體變虛擬好那現在實體聚落的部分實體生態園區到底是誰在負責國科會嗎國科會也講的有一點保守欸他說我們的"},{"start":416.812,"end":437.026,"text":"這個產業園區我們都可以配合他們是就他們目前目前的狀態那我們如果依照主委所講的我們是要做到我們是要做到我們除了國發基金以外我們還有公建計劃這是沒工的所以我們的方向到底怎麼拿捏來 國科會"},{"start":442.723,"end":465.245,"text":"實體的部分你們負責的嗎跟委員報告基本上我們還是會以沙崙為中心點因為目前它的整個開發其實還不如預期所以委員您所剛才所談到的這些未來會有個Data Center裡面會有超級電腦專門做AI的研究"},{"start":466.005,"end":489.493,"text":"另外委員剛剛所提到的這個AI的生態園區也應該會以沙崙為中心然後再往整個南部這樣擴散目前都還在規劃中因為沙崙它有中央研究院南部院區然後又有你們國科會相關的一些所謂研發的地點"},{"start":490.313,"end":516.911,"text":"所以我們看到的是綠能科技產業園區在沙崙我們把它這一塊土地放在這裡是很可惜的還有成大我們的相關還有交通大學這些研發的能量都在裡面但是並沒有發揮啊所以我為什麼說要爭取AI的生態園區在台南當然就是在我們的沙崙這個區塊嘛從過去到現在我們看到的是能量沒有發揮嘛"},{"start":518.012,"end":534.645,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話我們再加上有些隱形產業我們必須是實體跟虛擬要並進嘛是不是一個負責實體一個負責虛擬嘛這樣才對嘛然後國發會是know-how嘛他做串聯嘛"},{"start":535.666,"end":551.515,"text":"是不是這樣子所以我們期待的AI生態園區除了有像黃仁軒執行長所說的他必須是AI的研發中心他可以併進來嘛對不對他可以把1加1大於2嘛"},{"start":552.455,"end":573.42,"text":"如果我們有這樣的一個生態園區他在投注他們的一些原本預期的計畫跟目標對我們來講是加分了所以我覺得說AI生態園區在整個地理位置經費當中最適合的就是台南就在沙崙這非常的清楚主委"},{"start":574.1,"end":588.957,"text":"好 謝謝委員我會負責來整合兩個部會的結果然後再跟你們報告好 再拜託那還有一個部分您的誠意我們是一直感受很深對 因為我覺得我們台南現在覺得就是一個整合"},{"start":590.038,"end":612.772,"text":"如果把它整合起來我們的能量是無限大我們有那個條件但是缺了一個整合那我相信今天有一點我覺得還是要澄清清楚我們請這個經濟部長就是說外媒說台灣缺電會衝擊全球的產業基本上我覺得今天起碼台灣的能量"},{"start":613.732,"end":636.063,"text":"我們的經濟能量、企業能量是被外媒所看到的這個對我們來講是好的可是因為被看到大家會擔心我們是不是會有缺電的問題部長我們應該準備好了尤其我們現在投注AIAI的用電非常的大那這個部分呢我們準備好了沒報告委員準備好了"},{"start":636.403,"end":663.36,"text":"準備好了所以我們不會像外媒所講的會因為有這個缺電而影響到我們整個全球產業因為大家已經把台灣變成是一個全球產業包括半導體的一個指標囉這對我們來講其實是一個非常棒的可是他們擔心我們要把它擔心把它斷絕台灣電的部分沒有問題"},{"start":664.361,"end":684.641,"text":"是不是這樣是的缺電影響全球是事實但是我們沒有缺電我們沒有缺電我們準備好了對不對我們在準備應該是好的好我想AI產業如果進到我們在整個整合的體系當中電、水它永遠都是最重要再麻煩部長謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8193a440d521302f2c498b2dfa55713766c139eec4d40364b4fd25b08c110ea79ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:37:02 - 09:47:09","影片長度":"00:10:07","會議時間":"2024-06-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（五）委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案。\n（六）委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n【第（四）至（六）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-12","start_time":"2024-06-12T09:37:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-12T09:47:09+08:00","duration":607,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":32,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-32"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":321,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時37分）有請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長，現在我們司法有一個最新的進步的時代，叫做偵查大公開時代，你知道吧？"],["黃次長謀信：偵查不公開。"],["羅委員智強：是偵查大公開，你搞錯了！連現在我們是偵查大公開時代，你都搞不清楚！我跟你講，偵查大公開時代不是我個人的說法，也不是你個人的認知。請問一下，108年到112年底，經過機關蒐集資料，小組列入檢討的，有違反偵查不公開之虞的案件有多少件？你告訴我。"],["黃次長謀信：剛剛委員有提到，合起來有數千件。"],["羅委員智強：7,255件，偵查大公開啊！"],["黃次長謀信：那個是列入檢討的。"],["羅委員智強：當然我知道列進去。我告訴你，除非你今天不看報紙，幾乎每個重大案件，我想要請問次長，不管是楊文科案、高虹安案、林姿妙案，只要檢方發動任何的偵查手段，第二天、第三天、第四天，週刊就報導了，沒錯吧！我有誣賴你們嗎？沒錯吧！還是要我調新聞資料出來給你，還是你們完全沒掌握？這7,255件有沒有包含這些事情？有沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，所有有違反偵查不公開之虞的都要列入檢討。"],["羅委員智強：有沒有包含？有沒有包含嘛？"],["黃次長謀信：之虞的……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你回去列個報告給我，7,255件！我想要知道是哪7,255件﹗資料準備一下。"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，剛剛委員提的那個新竹的個案，事實上，新竹地檢署也有列入檢討。"],["羅委員智強：要列入檢討嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：非常好！檢討結果是什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：檢討結果當然如同委員講的，它現在認為沒有違反偵查不公開之虞。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，沒有違反偵查不公開，眼睛瞎了，才會說沒有違反偵查不公開啦！所有案情鉅細靡遺，除了跟偵查有關的人之外，誰拿到這些資料？你不要講，今天連監察院看你們都看不下去啦！監察院108年12月公布的調查報告明確指出，檢調偵辦社會矚目案件違反偵查不公開等情事，嚴重侵犯人權。包括本委員會的黃國昌委員向北檢告發的司法案件也被外洩媒體，為公眾所知。我自己都被檢察官約談過，我上次有說過，檢察官跟我講，偵查不公開，羅先生，請你出去不要講。我出去不講，結果週刊寫出一大堆，扭曲我在所謂作證的時候講的話。奇怪！是我洩漏的嗎？我當然知道，我前面問法務部長，就堅決否認是檢察官洩漏，為什麼？因為我也抓不到，我又不是司法警察，我又沒警察權。所以我要回頭講，你今天跟我講內控機制，到現在為止，我剛剛前面講，7,255件，多不多？多不多啊？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：這個……"],["羅委員智強：你對數字的直觀，也許答不出來，我跟你講，一般民眾看到這個數字覺得很可怕！可是檢察官很棒啊！因為違反偵查不公開遭起訴的有幾個？你告訴我。"],["黃次長謀信：當然是沒有。"],["羅委員智強：零啦！檢察官每個都是聖人，還是神人？那麼多的案件你一個都沒有辦法，你今天告訴我說規則，跟我講檢察官通通沒事，我還相信你的內控嗎？我就講一個最簡單的事情，為什麼球員不能兼裁判？為什麼？為什麼永遠不能只依賴內控？為什麼？為什麼？因為人就有人性，現在有多少檢察官？"],["黃次長謀信：全國大概1,400個檢察官。"],["羅委員智強：1,400個，我相信1,399個都是很棒的檢察官，但也保證有1個檢察官今天把偵查資訊洩漏給媒體，今天甚至也有不肖的司法警察人員把偵查所有搜集的資料賣給詐欺集團，有沒有這個案例？有沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：司法警察的部分有起訴……"],["羅委員智強：有，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：所以換言之，人性使得內控機制基本上先天就有缺陷，更何況我今天講的昭昭然，今天你們法務部跟我講，我看所有偵查不公開事件的主管機關不就是法務部，是吧？不然你們幹嘛組小組去檢討？"],["黃次長謀信：那個是偵查不公開作業辦法裡面所規定要……"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！但是你的績效拿出來，你覺得能服眾嗎？我現在看到的就是偵查大公開時代啦！所以第一個、我為什麼今天要講偵查不公開要法制化？也是為檢察官好，今天為什麼要偵查不公開？不就是落實無罪推定，免得偵查公開，去帶風向，對不對？抱歉！現在每次發生任何案件，所有的案件當事人，照這個偵查大公開的內容，不用等審判，全世界都認為他已經貪污定讞了，結果貪污的定罪率六成，被大公開那三成最後判無罪，可是抱歉，中間被霸凌、被所謂的扒皮，已經是經歷所有有罪推定的過程了。","今天法務部內控大敗壞這件事，我要講下一個嚴重的問題，這也是我質詢部長的，打詐，沒有人反對吧！有人反對嗎？次長。"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有人反對嘛！可是打詐，今天不管科技偵查法、打詐四法、通保法，我們確實想要授予檢察機關、司法警察強大的武器去打擊詐欺，對不對？也就是希望你武器夠嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：武器越大，人民受侵害越大，請問相關的管理是不是就要更嚴格？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有問題，對。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！更嚴格，可是今天有做到嗎？我只看到一面倒要求給檢察官武器，可是GPS二十四小時內，照你們的版本要不要通知當事人？"],["黃次長謀信：法條上沒有規定要通知當事人，這要透過內控來處理。"],["羅委員智強：沒有通知當事人？你不要給我轉彎。"],["黃次長謀信：二十四小時之內沒有啊！"],["羅委員智強：你只是內控而已。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛前面講，你今天內控績效好，在這邊我沒有資格講你什麼，我相信你的內控嗎？我說那1,400個檢察官，有一個檢察官今天他就把這GPS資料拿出去，又是交給同一個八卦周刊，不然就是交給詐欺集團，再不然就是交給所謂的天眼局王義川，我知道嗎？我知道嗎？今天你去查韓國瑜的GPS紀錄，你連他都不用通知的時候，我知道嗎？韓國瑜知道嗎？你要查林志玲的GPS紀錄，我現在只講GPS紀錄喔！網路流量紀錄也是不用通知，不是嗎？不是嗎？也不用通知啊！我們親愛的部長昨天跟我答詢，講一個很好笑的事情，我說你今天連我們去的網站你都知道，他跟我講不會知道，次長再跟我講，不會知道嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：他是知道……如果網路流量只知道網域跟IP。"],["羅委員智強：知道IP嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：他要進一步的偵查……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，次長，部長胡說八道，你還是保留專業一點，我都知道你的IP，你跟我講你不知道網站，點不點開而已嘛！那你今天跟我講你的內控就有非常強大的約束力，我不想看林志玲去過哪些網站，我相信1,399個人做得到啊！但你能保證最後那一個人做不做得到？因為連林志玲都不知道他被你看過了。所以今天為什麼在這邊一直呼籲，事前的階段我到現在還沒有時間討論，事前該採檢察官保留還是法官保留，還是今天就是完全相信檢察官？這個我都已經沒時間討論了，但是這些都可以為了打詐的效率，你還講得出一點理由啦！事後通知也不做，事後所謂的救濟，沒有通知哪來的救濟啊？事後損害賠償的監管，事後資料銷毀的外控機制，你都跟我講內控可以做，所以到這邊你叫我怎麼相信今天你不是假借科偵法、假借通保法，打詐的目的也許有，但是你附帶要去政治偵防人民，甚至出賣人民的個人隱私資料給八卦周刊，甚至給詐欺集團，我沒有辦法管制啊！我沒有辦法瞭解啊！事後跟事前最大的差別，事後跟打詐一點關係都沒有，沒錯吧？事後通知會妨礙你打詐嗎？會不會？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們現在只有GPS二十四小時內……"],["羅委員智強：我先問你嘛！事後通知會妨礙你打詐嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：事後通知當然不會啊！"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！那不要再把打詐做藉口，你都認證了，事後通知只是讓你多一道手續，你連偵查作為都做的時候，你不要跟我講事後通知你做不到！事後通知只是增加一道手續，跟打詐是沒有關係的，沒錯吧？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們所有的科技偵查方法，除了GPS在24小時內，其他都要法官保留……"],["羅委員智強：那你GPS如何做到事後通知？包括事後所謂資料銷毀的外控，包括所謂救濟管道的精實，包括所謂損害賠償責任的建置，有沒有？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，如果司法警察他違反規定……"],["羅委員智強：法制局的報告不是這樣寫。"],["黃次長謀信：他相關的法律責任本來就應該要負啊！他不會免除他該負的法律責任，該國家賠償就該國家賠償。"],["羅委員智強：對啦！我知道你們的內控很嚴格，絕對會追究責任到底啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請傅崐萁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":340,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-32","speakers":["吳宗憲","沈伯洋","鍾佳濱","羅智強","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","洪孟楷","翁曉玲"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-06-12"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)司法院、行政院函請審議「刑事訴訟法第七十條之一、第二百四十五條及第二百四\n十五條之一條文修正草案」案；(二)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案」案；\n(三)委員羅智強等27人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條條文修正草案」案；(四)委員吳宗憲等\n20人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部分條文草案」案；(五)委員鍾佳濱等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法增訂部\n分條文草案」案；(六)委員沈伯洋等18人擬具「刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條及第二百四十五條之\n一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136101_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.76034375,"end":4.75596875000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千兩百五十五件偵查大公開啊當然我知道你也進去啦除非你今天不看報紙你幾乎每重大案件我想要請問次長不管是楊文科案、高雄安案、林志妙案只要檢方發動任何的偵查手段第二天、第三天、第四天"},{"start":79.793,"end":98.488,"text":"週刊就報導了。沒錯吧?我有誣賴你們嗎?沒錯吧?還是要我調新聞資料出來給你?還是說你完全沒掌握?你這7255件有沒有包含這些事情有沒有?有沒有包含嘛?有沒有包含嘛?沒關係你回去列個報告給我。7255件我想知道是哪?7255件資料準備一下。"},{"start":109.48,"end":128.854,"text":"第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之一、第三百五條之"},{"start":130.095,"end":155.697,"text":"誰拿到這些資料你不要講今天連監察院都看你們看不下去啦監察院一百零八年十二月公布的調查報告明確指出檢調偵辦社會矚目案件違反偵查不公開等刑嚴重侵犯人權聯邦法本會委員會的黃國昌委員向北檢告發的司法案件也被外洩媒體為公眾所知"},{"start":156.758,"end":184.39,"text":"我自己都被檢察官約談過啊我還跟上次說過啊檢察官跟我講說偵查不公開羅先生請你出去不要講我出去不講結果週刊寫出一大堆扭曲我在偵查這個所謂的作證的時候講的話奇怪是我洩漏的嗎我當然知道啦我前面問法務部長就堅決否認是檢察官洩漏為什麼因為我也抓不到啊因為我又不是司法警察我又沒警察權"},{"start":185.669,"end":213.18,"text":"所以我要回頭講齁你今天跟我講內部內控機制到現在為止我剛剛前面講7255件喔多不多啊多不多啊市長你的數字觀數字直觀也許答不出來我跟你講一般民眾看到這個數字很可怕可是檢察官很棒啊因為違反偵查不公開遭起訴的幾個你告訴我喔當然是沒有零吶"},{"start":215.227,"end":233.644,"text":"檢察官每個都是聖人還是神人啊那麼多的案件你一個都沒有辦法今天告訴我說今天規則然後通通跟我講檢察官沒事我還相信你的內控嗎我就要講一個最簡單的事情為什麼球員不能兼裁判為什麼為什麼永遠不能只依賴內控為什麼為什麼因為人就有人性"},{"start":238.55,"end":263.528,"text":"檢察官現在有多少檢察官?全國大概一千四百個檢察官一千四百個我相信一千三百九十九個都是很棒的檢察官但你保證那一個檢察官有一個檢察官他今天把偵查資訊洩漏媒體他今天甚至也有不肖的司法警察人員把偵查的把所有收集的資料賣給詐欺集團有沒有這個案例有沒有"},{"start":264.663,"end":291.124,"text":"司法警察部門有起訴有嘛 對不對對所以換言之人性死的內控機制基本先天就有缺陷啊更何況我今天講的招招攬今天你們法務部跟我講我剛所有偵查部公開事件主管機關不就是法務部不是吧是吧不然你們幹嘛組小組去檢討啊那個是偵查部門該作為辦法裡面所規定對嘛但是你的績效拿出來你覺得能服眾嗎"},{"start":293.629,"end":321.462,"text":"我現在看到就偵查大公開時代啦所以第一個為什麼今天要講偵查不公開要法治化也是為檢察官好今天為什麼要偵查不公開不就是若實無罪推定嘛免得偵查公開你去帶風向嘛對不對現在抱歉每次發生任何案件這些所有的案件當事人照這個偵查大公開的內容不用等審判全世界都認為他已經貪污定驗了結果貪污定罪率六成"},{"start":322.452,"end":344.133,"text":"被大公開的三層最後被判無罪可是抱歉中間被霸凌被所謂的扒皮已經是精靈的所有有罪貼定的過程了啦那今天從偵查部公開今天司法法務部這邊吼內控大敗壞這件事我要講下一個嚴重的問題了這也是我質詢部長"},{"start":346.773,"end":371.771,"text":"四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三"},{"start":376.758,"end":398.895,"text":"我只看到一面倒要求檢察官給你武器可是呢GPS24小時內要不要通知當事人照你們的白門要不要通知當事人法條上沒有規定要通知當事人透過內控來處理沒有通知當事人你不要給我轉彎你只是內控而已我剛剛前面講你今天內控績效好我站這邊我沒有資格講你什麼"},{"start":400.336,"end":420.452,"text":"我相信你的內控嗎?我說那一千四百個檢察官有一個檢察官今天他就把這GPS資料他拿出去交給又是八卦週刊同一個再不然就是交給詐欺集團再不然就是交給所謂的天眼局王一川我知道嗎?"},{"start":422.125,"end":440.461,"text":"二）刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條"},{"start":444.485,"end":445.646,"text":"三）委員羅智強等27人擬具 «刑事訴訟法第二百"},{"start":471.687,"end":487.113,"text":"三十四條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第三百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十五條之一、第一百四十"},{"start":489.437,"end":507.456,"text":"所以今天為什麼在這邊一直呼籲事前的階段我到現在還沒有時間討論事前該裁檢察官保安法官保安是完全就是今天相信檢察官我這個都已經沒時間討論了但是這些你都可以為了打仗的效率你還講得出一點理由啦"},{"start":508.497,"end":528.05,"text":"事後通知也不做事後的所謂的救濟沒有通知哪來的救濟啊事後的損害賠償的監管事後資料的銷毀的外控機制你都跟我講內控可以做啊所以到這邊你叫我怎麼相信今天你不是假借科證法假借所謂通保法"},{"start":529.111,"end":547.915,"text":"打詐目的也許有但是你附帶去政治偵訪人民甚至出賣人民的個人隱私資料給八卦週刊甚至給詐欺集團我沒有辦法管制啊我沒辦法了解啊事後跟事前最大的差別事後跟打詐一點關係都沒有沒錯吧事後通知會妨礙你打詐嗎會不會我先問你嘛事後通知會妨礙你打詐嗎"},{"start":560.243,"end":573.628,"text":"對嘛!那不要再拿打詐做藉口你都認證了事後通知只是讓你多一道手續你連偵查作為都做的時候你不要跟我講事後通知你做不到事後通知只是增加一道手續跟打詐是沒有關係的沒錯吧!"},{"start":574.828,"end":578.49,"text":"包括所謂的救濟管道的基因石包括所謂的損害賠償責任的建制有沒有"},{"start":591.738,"end":602.566,"text":"三（委員羅智強等27人擬具:「刑事訴訟法第二百五條之一、第二百四十五條之一、第二百五條之一、第三百五條之一、四十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一、五十五條之一（"}]}},{"id":"153805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f10fa8b3f7cd8196852762d9a5ef152182e407f268492bc139eec4d40364b4f9fa06f7c1a6a5e135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:29:30 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VASP 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並宣稱APP可插隊搶賬"},{"start":64.901,"end":88.867,"text":"這個暫停版的這些股票並保證獲利第二種就是宣稱虛擬貨幣的交易有高獲利勸誘民眾來投資虛擬貨幣等那第三種則是詐團詐團會宣稱自己是經過金管會核准的合法投資投顧事業並偽造、證照來"},{"start":92.728,"end":96.992,"text":"詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人詐騙投資人"},{"start":120.091,"end":137.472,"text":"你認為就能夠達到預防的效果嗎?是,謝謝委員其實防詐是一個多面向的工作像比如說就以今晚會主政主要是兩大部分一個是市詐跟主詐,特別是主詐的部分那主詐的部分我們大概是透過一些帳戶的管理"},{"start":138.572,"end":156.523,"text":"市詐的部分我們當然是透過各種的教育宣導我們在過去透過我們金融機構以及周邊單位已經辦過非常多的這個所謂的市詐的工作不過這個是一個要持續來做的事情那另外我們對主詐特別是進入到金流以後對帳戶的管理這是我們監管的重點以上"},{"start":157.065,"end":157.205,"text":"主委啊"},{"start":186.08,"end":211.253,"text":"詐團手法變化多端本席認為這些犯罪從業的首腦對社會整個脈動的變化掌控掌握度往往能夠與時俱進以至於受害者遍及社會各個層面案件呈現有增無減主委今晚會公告合法業者的名單希望民眾"},{"start":212.273,"end":239.617,"text":"投資前先查詢確認是我為合法業者以確保整個投資的安全另外一方面民眾在金管會核准的證券期貨業者以及商品警示專區也可以查詢到黑名單那業者等資訊請問主委你認為單純公告宣導效果好不好"},{"start":240.297,"end":264.286,"text":"當然這個我們都希望能夠達到效果但是我們先從我們能想到能做到可以做好的部分先來努力像剛才委員所指正的就是說我們必須把合法的名單公告以及透過各種的管道告訴民眾哪些是真哪些是假我想這個是我們應該做至於說未來我們還有很多很多的努力方向我們希望說一起努力把詐騙的這個風氣把它降低下來主委啊"},{"start":269.488,"end":288.609,"text":"因為詐團都已經透過網路平台、社群媒體進行無孔不入的犯罪手段和行為那我請問主委你認為政府機關有沒有更積極的宣導手段進而建立內化民眾正常的投資判斷的觀念呢?"},{"start":289.87,"end":311.957,"text":"是我覺得這是我們所有政府努力的目標就像我們在剛剛講源頭控管非常重要剛剛委員也提到就是說我們比如說剛剛很多的這個詐騙廣告都是來自於一些平台那我們也積極的努力跟他們溝通那再來就是我們現在不斷的強調我們也透過未來很多的宣導希望民眾警覺性越來越高增加我們全民的防詐免疫力"},{"start":312.622,"end":320.686,"text":"主委,據了解金管會和法務部已達成共識為加強監督虛擬資產業者在訂定專法前將先修改《洗錢防制法》虛擬資產業改採登記制未經登記舊金營業的將會有刑罰"},{"start":338.596,"end":340.758,"text":"金融監理委員會主席"},{"start":358.959,"end":375.414,"text":"慢慢的大家都肯認這個是一個未來必須要取得所謂的執照的這樣一個行業特別是我們很多的參考國際上很多國家都已經開始在做最近幾年這也是為什麼我們這次透過《洗房辦法》裡面採登記制來做這樣的一個納管"},{"start":376.53,"end":398.326,"text":"那個主委啊因為3月20號比特幣出現暴跌走勢今晚會當時還提出兩大的呼籲指出虛擬資產高度投機性且無內在的價值那境外平台未受國內主管機關的監理那我這個請民眾審慎來評估虛擬資產交易的風險 主委前主委黃天牧啊"},{"start":406.072,"end":423.96,"text":"在任的時候看得出金管會對虛擬資產的態度是保守而且不積極那我請問主委因為你剛上任對於虛擬資產業未來法制化之後金管會有沒有成為虛擬資產業"},{"start":427.335,"end":453.989,"text":"特許事業的主管機關呢?是謝謝委員其實金管會已經被行政院指定為我們是對虛擬資產具有投資及交易工具的虛擬資產的那個主管機關主管機關所以說以後你們就是主管機關就是有些因為虛擬資產的範圍非常非常大還有就是它相關的所謂的類似的東西非常的多所以我們這已經先就重要的部分先做納管金管會責務龐大也是我們現在的主政"},{"start":454.229,"end":459.863,"text":"那你認為軍管會對這個行業的監督管理態度應該是開放還是保守呢?"},{"start":460.755,"end":486.47,"text":"報告委員這其實上這兩個面向就像全世界各國大概都是先從洗錢防制來做管理但是當這個產業已經開始成型而且具有國際上面的這樣一個競爭的情況的時候其實台灣也要注意這樣的情況就是其實台灣過去有很好的科技實力假設這是一個未來很重要的市場我們也要持續的關注所以未來專法的面向當然是以安全保護消費者"},{"start":488.072,"end":490.174,"text":"主委,因為楊金榮總裁表示目前台灣央行對CBDC"},{"start":499.239,"end":523.192,"text":"還在研究的階段可能需要比較長的時間最少要3年以上他強調科技越進步你就要越小心那主委楊總裁強調比特幣等基本上屬性是虛擬資產而非貨幣央行本於職責對於投資人要提出警示虛擬資產有漲有跌"},{"start":527.423,"end":528.429,"text":"這個應該留意當中的風險那請問主委"},{"start":532.271,"end":559.077,"text":"國內數位貨幣有沒有金融中介的必要性其實這個謝謝委員其實我們現在來看我們除了這個虛擬幣以外另外還有一個穩定幣這是其實上它的屬性在各國不管在學理或實務上都有不同的見解不過現在慢慢的開始納管以後很多東西開始制度化開始逐漸成型我們也在觀察國際的趨勢來作為以後管理的需求"},{"start":559.437,"end":587.158,"text":"主委如果數位貨幣脫軌金融的中介那有哪些的優點與缺點整個國內的環境適合哪種的模式比較適當這是一個謝謝委員就是主要是其實虛擬資產本身來講它絕對有它一些獨特的優勢但它的缺點也非常的多我想這個還要靠我們未來的整個眼鏡以及全世界的發展趨勢來看"},{"start":588.399,"end":613.016,"text":"主委 因為以目前的狀況來看大多數的政府的策略方向都是繼續保持法定貨幣的流通同時發展數位貨幣的生態那央行目前定位數位貨幣的傾向金融中介機構在間接金融架構中扮演資金"},{"start":614.762,"end":634.031,"text":"虛扭的角色那透過金融中介機構的運作可有效的降低資訊不對稱所引起的逆向選擇與道德風險的問題解決資金流向的阻礙所以說在市場上大部分的資金"},{"start":635.492,"end":644.527,"text":"龍通都是透過金融中介的機構那我請問主委現行的貨幣銀行的所有措施你認為"},{"start":646.738,"end":668.859,"text":"能不能一體適用在數位貨幣上面呢?報告委員我想這個貨幣當然主政是中央銀行我不太方便評論就我個人的看法其實數位貨幣跟真的貨幣還是有非常大的距離有差別是不是?例如數位貨幣有無銀行利息的產生要不要規範銀行管理費用"},{"start":669.86,"end":695.125,"text":"未來數位貨幣會不會與國際間的數位貨幣同步接軌?制度如果不同,那你認為有沒有相互流通的可行性呢?我們看國際數位幣的發展,除了我們現在數位幣還有Define還有它衍生出來的很多的金融服務非常的多元不過現在都還要透過市場的測試才知道它未來的發展性"},{"start":696.421,"end":711.428,"text":"我是希望說金管會在這方面金管會在這方面應該要多多去了解重視因為你們站在金融的立場當然控管非常重要那尤其講實在話今天這個議題因為詐騙這個講實在話"},{"start":717.511,"end":733.552,"text":"臺灣讓人家成為是詐騙的王國而且那個一直在變這個很嚴重而且政府又拿不出更具體的辦法越騙越多人就受騙所以我們政府要好好地去控管是沒問題謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}