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林董 市長簡立忠 簡總經理OTC的陳永誠 董事長李愛玲 李總經理這個都是經驗都非常豐富的財政部副退署的宋秀琳 宋署長"},{"start":2655.189,"end":2664.92,"text":"勞動部勞動條件及就業平等事專門委員李怡萱法部法制司副司長謝志明"},{"start":2666.84,"end":2670.202,"text":"事實上我是提了兩個法那之前一個就是中小企業發展條例這兩個法叫做加薪二法"},{"start":2696.487,"end":2716.143,"text":"市長應該不是只有台灣民眾黨這段關係我相信其他黨派包括民進黨跟國民黨那事實上這也是政府很重要的績效我之前是跟經濟部王美花王部長先討論了中小企業發展條例那他認為說這個事實上是應該幫勞工要加薪所以大家看到行政院後來就提了一個版本"},{"start":2716.903,"end":2734.171,"text":"就經濟部提給行政院,行政院有提這個修正版那這個版在經濟委員會現在已經討論差不多了他朝野協商完以後最近就會進到院會了所以同樣加薪惡法上那個中小企業發展條例幫一般的員工加薪可以抵稅這個事情這個案子是最近就會過了"},{"start":2735.271,"end":2751.826,"text":"現在我們在討論的是第二個案子我很期待今天這個第二個案子能夠像當初我跟王美花王部長在討論的時候大家想一下來不來得及提對案我不曉得可是我很期待就是說大家那個精神應該是一樣我剛剛一開頭就講了這個不是針對哪一個政黨"},{"start":2754.066,"end":2774.444,"text":"我是覺得這個事情我們好好來做是針對包括執政黨應該是有業績的包括大家人在公門好修行現在確實那個很多那個基本的那個基層的員工啊確實那個薪資落差是太大了那上市商會公司確實太我們也沒有說他沒賺錢要幫大家加薪欸我們說前提第一個是他要賺到錢喔賺到錢他賺到錢本來"},{"start":2776.752,"end":2799.293,"text":"本來就應該把一部分的這個比例拿出來給員工嘛我現在這是合情合理啦而且特別是針對現在的這種貧富差距越來越大然後那個落差那個薪資的落差越來越大我是期待大家用人在公民好修行的心情來看這件事情好不好那比例我先可以討論啦就是說到底是多少比例執政黨可能或者說政府裡面啊他應該會比較精算"},{"start":2800.053,"end":2813.56,"text":"因為我看好像已經有人提到什麼要提百分之十、二十那在比例上面我沒有堅持可是我很期待就是說大家是用比較正面去看待這個事情好不好好 謝謝張祺凱代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團那因為國民黨我現在是國民黨黨團這裡"},{"start":2818.743,"end":2836.556,"text":"那我們對於證券交易法第十四條的修正條文那基本上我們是支持的因為是M型社會現在物價飆漲很多的基層的員工事實上公司賺了很多錢卻沒有利益分享沒有照顧員工所以"},{"start":2839.458,"end":2852.419,"text":"提變昨天有這個發布說實質薪資有慢慢地趕上去但事實上現在很痛苦雞腿便當一個可能要一百五、一百六以前八十塊那九十塊"},{"start":2855.12,"end":2875.281,"text":"就是物價漲了快80% 90% 薪資最近有調一些 有人說3% 5% 趕不上那個變化那我們看到今年度所有上市商櫃的營收 這個數字很亮麗 都屢創新高股市也超過兩萬點 兩萬點應該也站穩了"},{"start":2878.084,"end":2895.9,"text":"可是基層的壽星階級還是苦哈哈沒有感受到經濟成長的分享的喜悅所以國民黨黨團當然也是理論上還精神上、實質上都是支持這樣的一個方向"},{"start":2897.817,"end":2906.281,"text":"最後是李委員要先講還是主管機關先講李昆城、李委員謝謝各位也謝謝所有與會的官員其實這個是近復惡毒"},{"start":2913.924,"end":2928.597,"text":"這個其實也是可以在委員會好好的討論啦齊凱秀你剛剛講那個我們也是在委員會好好的討論啦所以我認為說像這個比較重要的法案其實應該是要委員會好好的討論才對啦你說淨富二讀就剩下三個人這樣說而已"},{"start":2932.864,"end":2946.397,"text":"在討論上面我認為應該要更充分更充足讓更多的委員的意見能夠加入我覺得這樣是會比較好更何況說國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都有提案我是認為說第一個"},{"start":2947.878,"end":2965.933,"text":"進覆二讀 我認為在程序上是比較不適妥第二個就是說這個因為它按照兩黨的提案裡面都是有提撥一定的比例我們是認為說這個其實它都是上市規公司上市規公司其實你是要對所有的股東所交代"},{"start":2966.673,"end":2994.233,"text":"那你如果說要提撥一定的比例的話那這其實你要讓股東知道說這個這為什麼要提撥一定的比例來做這個加薪那所以按照這一個納稅者權利保護法的規定那其實這個你第一個你必須要提出一個實施的年限然後達成這一個合理政策的目的為限就是你大概要讓人家知道說讓你的股東知道說"},{"start":2995.507,"end":3020.402,"text":"為什麼要提出這個租稅的優惠而且這個租稅優惠因為它涉及到很多人的權利所以應該要提出應該要舉行公聽會然後要提出你這個稅市的支出的評估這是第二個第三個就是說如果按照這個納稅者權利保護法的第六條這還要實施還要明定實施的年限那其實在這邊其實也看不到所以我是認為說因為"},{"start":3021.763,"end":3049.166,"text":"這個已經到了這個近乎二讀的這個現在由朝野這邊來做協商那我是希望說如果可以的話其實應該還是讓委員會來做討論最好啦那如果不行的話那就只能交付這個朝野協商再來做討論這樣子這樣其實其實委員會討論真的會比較充分一點點啦我的看法是這樣子"},{"start":3050.263,"end":3066.271,"text":"好 謝謝李委員那現在是不是請主管機關我們先請金管會然後接下來財政部看看有沒有意見那如果說沒有意見的話我們就精神上大家都是支持啦那就是討論的過程看怎麼樣比較"},{"start":3068.512,"end":3086.48,"text":"確實一點請主委我先簡單說明一下這個法案其實在上一個會期也討論過當然很多不同的政黨有不同的看法所以現在還要再討論也是OK啦但是說剛才有特別提到應該到委員會大家充分再次溝通一下"},{"start":3086.98,"end":3104.033,"text":"那目前所提出來這個方案我們看到就是說你員工要加薪那加薪這個定義其實是很模糊的因為薪水有經常性支出就是說你的薪水每個月配給多少那如果年終我給你年終獎金那用加薪這個字是很模糊的不知道在講哪一塊"},{"start":3104.633,"end":3104.933,"text":"二、台灣民眾黨團擬具"},{"start":3127.952,"end":3128.312,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3154.256,"end":3181.35,"text":"好 謝謝張局長不過因為是上一屆啦因為現在是新的一屆啦那以前的確有討論過那大家對這個問題也都很關切不過經過立法院多次的討論好像這個台灣證券交易所跟OTC這邊也有推動不少啦好像有一些比較具體的成果是不是也可以請兩邊是不是可以有代表陳董你要不要講一下"},{"start":3183.171,"end":3188.064,"text":"就是OTC大概八百間上柜公司他們加薪的情況"},{"start":3192.757,"end":3218.829,"text":"委員 那我就代表來做一下台灣證券交易所 檢總是 那我想那個在員工薪資的這一個部分我們交易所一直都配合來想辦法來提升我們員工的這一個薪資所以之前在資訊揭露的部分已經加強很多我們現在大概在"},{"start":3219.449,"end":3239.404,"text":"每年的年報還有六月底的這一個公司的申報裡面都會去申報這個員工的薪資然後他各項比如說非經理人的這個員工薪資都會有很多的申報那我們從這幾年的申報看起來"},{"start":3240.748,"end":3266.489,"text":"公司賺錢的話大致都會公司薪水的這個比例都有增加那但是在去年去年的稅後其實是上市公司是減了百分之大概二十幾二十五左右那所以我們看了一下平均的員工的薪資呢在去年是有降了大概三個percent"},{"start":3268.15,"end":3293.053,"text":"公司是稅後降了二十幾個百分比但是員工的部分他有稍微低下來所以還是很保護員工的員工這方面還是有我們這樣看起來的話其實剛剛講了這個議題那個剛剛局長這邊有講其實我們支持說員工這個公司賺錢應該要多分配給員工"},{"start":3293.433,"end":3322.361,"text":"那這公司法裡面已經有明訂了那如果說我們以目前實務上看起來確實上市公司的平均值也都是朝這個方向來做那如果說要訂一定的比例去加薪的話要看加在變動薪水還是還是固定薪水因為如果是如果加在變動薪水的話那公司如果不賺錢的時候那一年他他沒有辦法"},{"start":3322.841,"end":3322.941,"text":"二、台灣民眾黨團擬具"},{"start":3345.889,"end":3346.91,"text":"財政部 宋署長"},{"start":3361.351,"end":3380.299,"text":"財政部副稅署這邊來就國民黨團所提的加薪要加成百分之五十從當年所得的總檢出這案子來表示意見那因為我們先首先看一下證券交易法的法律架構其實我們發現主要是要維持整個市場的秩序"},{"start":3380.939,"end":3409.426,"text":"所以這整個《證券交易法》在法律架構之下它在健全這個遊戲規則放一個中稅優惠的條文是否妥適可能要像我們要再研究了所以就像剛剛張委員有提到其實我們現在在中小企業發展條例裡面它有一個加薪減稅的優惠目前已經在經濟委員會那邊審查那甚至已經要我記得沒錯的話已經要交送優惠的樣子就是那個程序已經朝野協商那現在"},{"start":3414.481,"end":3432.401,"text":"對,好像在吵一下對,就是加成比率的問題現在是加成比率的問題那我們會就這部分再來研議這是第一點就是證交法它整個從法律架構上它主要是要健全股市的交易秩序的話是否適合放一個租稅優惠條文"},{"start":3433.502,"end":3451.013,"text":"第二個我們租稅業會就像剛才李委員有特別提到根據納稅者權利保護法的規定跟財政紀律法以及我們財政紀律法還有財政收支劃分法的規定任何的租稅解免法案都必須要有替代的財源第一個我們要先估稅損那第二個我們要有替代的財源"},{"start":3451.933,"end":3478.064,"text":"因為這個案子我們大概因為比較急我們大概用上次貴姓財務報表公開的資料來估算的話其實我們有觀察到跟剛才證交所簡總經理所講的同樣的狀況就是說我們如果去看一下近三年就110年到112年度的話公司如果上年度有疑於大概下年度我們有發下薪資費用的金額都有增加"},{"start":3478.724,"end":3505.285,"text":"那增加大概佔比大概會當然不懂啦大概10%左右就佔稅後盈餘的10%有的不到10%但有的也會到10%那如果這樣其實你可以發現就是說上市櫃公司他的企業社會責任其實他懂得要把盈餘跟員工分享是不是有必要用租稅優惠來在額外有點像我們講說井上添花啦他本來就會做嘛那還給他減稅然後我們"},{"start":3507.347,"end":3530.239,"text":"看了一下我們初估 因為三年多的資料初估它的平均稅水一年是快是一百億這個對我們營所稅來講是有點無法承受啦有點無法承受所以這個是跟委員特別報告請體諒一下因為我們今年整個營所稅結算申報已經結束了嘛其實我們的資繳稅額是衰退的"},{"start":3530.979,"end":3531.82,"text":"好 謝謝財政部的宋署長"},{"start":3569.588,"end":3586.379,"text":"好現在就是因為中小區的判決條例那邊也在審那是不是各位人那我們就並按這個送去院會再一起我用什麼給對"},{"start":3597.861,"end":3620.726,"text":"都是加薪減稅的優惠我們是不是就從中小企業發展條約還是發展中小企業去做的一個租稅優惠他是有從定性上去看是比較適合中小企業使用上市櫃公司當然已經報告就是說其實他主動都有根據他營餘狀況去做一些加薪的這樣的措施是不是我們還要強制他做這種事情"},{"start":3660.526,"end":3663.671,"text":"字幕由 Amara.org 社群提供"},{"start":3669.574,"end":3687.218,"text":"再來有關加薪的部分就剛才講企業經營有賺有賠這是個公司治理而且我們公司把章程已經明訂就是說已經有這樣的規定了就是說站在我們在這個證券交易法的這個主管機關的角度我們認為說加薪應該不會在這裡來處理啦應該是這樣一個而且我們比較難強制說你賺錢賠"},{"start":3694.939,"end":3710.619,"text":"剛剛提到萬一賠錢的時候又一定的比率其實這樣這個部分就有因為這個經營的考量都是公司治理透過股東大會來決議他們的內容我想大概是這樣我們查到好像是沒有用強迫一個比率一定要"},{"start":3711.139,"end":3730.046,"text":"我們現在用公司法來解決這個問題他們自願章程你們會定說我們有一定比率要提撥做員工酬勞我想公司裡面都有這樣的共識大家都有只是說要放在哪裡因為證交法確實不是在做這件事情為主它是交易資訊、資訊揭露大概是這樣的一個概念"},{"start":3730.686,"end":3742.11,"text":"而且它只規範上市櫃公司而已那全台灣的公司那麼多我們總共也不過是1800多家是上市櫃公司這樣只對上市櫃公司做這樣的規範也不夠全面啦大概是這樣"},{"start":3796.775,"end":3826.304,"text":"其實在過去包括董堅的一些薪資的揭露鼓勵他怎麼樣來推動局長你要說明一下嗎我們現行其實對剛剛講證交所有特別提到我們的財報一出來我們就要求公司上市櫃公司你要揭露尤其像剛剛講有沒有加薪等等那是資訊接受有點像社會責任你對外你要編社會責任報告書嘛那你自己在那邊去詮釋那不是在證交法說你提撥多少比例"},{"start":3826.644,"end":3846.895,"text":"因為你的付出的比例外界從這個地方就可以看得到不過現在那個揭露的比例也才72就是為什麼沒有辦法全部百分之百不是 那是個別資金要 個別的薪資要揭露那是個別董事 董事是要個別揭露那因為我們沒有要求要個別"},{"start":3847.495,"end":3847.995,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3862.466,"end":3862.506,"text":"主席"},{"start":3883.206,"end":3906.053,"text":"就成為一個指數 人家就會投資你 就像我們做ETF的概念是一樣我們是用鼓勵的方式 因為強制的話 因為各家公司的體質差很多比如上次各位公司 大家看到獲利好 可能就是資通訊產業或是這些我們其實很多的傳產上次各位公司 其實過去剛才副會長也提到了其實各位感覺起來我們大家都好像賺錢 那其實上很多產業其實很辛苦的"},{"start":3907.154,"end":3928.554,"text":"這也很容易引發一個勞資之間在這邊每年大概就是會有一個就像我們這個基本工資啊這些東西又另外一個問題還有最重要的是剛剛副會長有提到政交法真的不是處理稅跟加薪的議題的那我們如果真的要把它變成是全民的話看看在哪裡有沒有可以來更好的方式來處理因為政交法確實不是用來做這件事情"},{"start":3947.28,"end":3970.57,"text":"其實主委剛剛講的也是有道理因為符合國際的這個情況另外我覺得金管會的態度大概就是多一點的陽光多一點的鼓勵取代苛責你要在入法真的感覺有一些自愛難行的地方不然我們就是把重點放在中小企業發展條例那邊看協商的結論"},{"start":3973.866,"end":3996.064,"text":"這個是回應社會上很多人的需求所以才會從上會議開始就很多人在提案我相信包括民進黨應該對外一定要有一個講法我比較認為這個案子不是錦上添花的案子是比較雪中送炭看怎麼樣去補強一點點這個"},{"start":3999.892,"end":4000.032,"text":"主席"},{"start":4015.64,"end":4039.753,"text":"但是我們在上市會公司用另外的方式用我們另外用計畫的方式來鼓勵他那我們金管會也正在推動我們可以請組長報告一下就是說我們未來強化這種鼓勵他們加薪的計畫來回應社會那另外中小企業那邊因為他比較善比較那個那這樣用趕快把它切割來處理大家都希望我們的國人的薪資水準能夠提高一個單純化啦 中小企業換條例那個"},{"start":4040.833,"end":4063.582,"text":"現在只是說你們做的事情要什麼方式,在哪個法裡面去呈現呢?你說你剛剛講,主委如果說了,你要怎麼鼓勵?這個陽光要在什麼地方出現?就是我們在資訊揭露,就像我們這個原來條文裡面就有一個令因主管機關規定揭露公司薪酬政策權利這個就是我們主管機關就會根據不同的狀況,像比如有一陣子大家覺得說你公司賠錢問董建還在加薪啊,所以我們就訂一個叫"},{"start":4064.722,"end":4086.455,"text":"如果你虧損的話你就要揭露你董建讓人家看說你有沒有廢話像這個我們就按照那當時這個就會產生一個嚇阻作用再來就是我們揭露非主管薪資就是主管當然是比較高級非主管的平均薪資多少大家就會比說原來你這麼苛刻你的基層員工比如諸如此類的我們證交法一個很重點叫資訊揭露我們可以在資訊揭露這邊去做這個強化但是"},{"start":4089.697,"end":4109.25,"text":"實在是不宜在這種的法律裡面加說一定要加薪每年一定要加薪一定的比率這個當然不是它的功能那我們在這邊我們覺得我們可以在這個部分資訊結露的部分我們怎麼樣把那個陽光把它加大它的那個曝曬的範圍第一個資訊結露第二就是說鼓勵的鼓勵的計畫對對對"},{"start":4113.855,"end":4132.305,"text":"這個計畫要在哪個法裡面去呈現還是怎麼樣有辦法嗎比較明確讓民眾可以知道這個辦法首先跟委員報告剛剛關心到說到底整個上次的公司有沒有賺錢幫員工做加薪先跟委員報告說過去四年公司平均的稅錢淨利是上升了22%左右過去四年"},{"start":4132.805,"end":4147.359,"text":"但是呢,員工福利費用也上升了19%換言之說,雖然沒有差很大也是說,過去四年平均來說商業公司還是有反應把獲利回饋給員工像現在商業公司平均的薪水應該是一年大概是一百幾萬左右"},{"start":4148.78,"end":4149.2,"text":"二、台灣民眾黨團擬具"},{"start":4169.224,"end":4185.946,"text":"民報最佳實務範例就是說公司在訂這個籌金的時候要橫評董監籌金跟員工薪資的一個情況提醒他說不是只能加在董監這邊員工這邊也要做兼顧啦那另外像公司的薪水的這個訂定的這個政策"},{"start":4187.708,"end":4205.316,"text":"總監的酬勞的政策也要寫在財報當中所以透過不斷的各種的包括像年報、財報還有公安政經觀測站剛剛主委提到的除了這個以外還有中位數因為怕被高階的經理人把他給拉高所以還有中位數的問題還有哪些公司有加薪加薪如果這個"},{"start":4207.037,"end":4207.978,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":4226.154,"end":4253.254,"text":"講很多啦齁你具體的提出一個有效的方法對外宣布一下即便你過去去年寫的那個你的成果或者你還有新的鼓勵的方法你都要公布一下我等待你那個啦齁那我們這邊也在等那今天的協商就到此齁那如果你沒有提出來我們下次就是擇期再議了我就直接送院會好不好"},{"start":4257.796,"end":4276.351,"text":"我們現有的證交法的法條都已經有了只是說我們來強化剛剛講的資訊揭露剛剛我們提到就是說假設社會關切什麼資訊比如說剛剛講說你那個成長多少薪資成長多少把這兩個揭露出來讓人家看嘛比如像這樣的話讓我們社會自由公平好公司或是比較"},{"start":4277.432,"end":4277.692,"text":"二、台灣民眾黨團擬具"},{"start":4295.222,"end":4317.687,"text":"因為他們最在乎就是投資人怎麼看他們他會這樣透過他的投資或以行為來鼓勵或是懲罰到他們我想用這個方法我們的法條應該是足夠我簡單補充一下因為主席剛剛也做了簡單結論其實我們黨團剛開始在討論這個問題的時候是發現問題算嚴重因為就是真的是落差是很大這是一個點那第一個我們就是說我知道你們也有在做"},{"start":4318.735,"end":4343.784,"text":"可是就是說一般很多人在外面談的時候都無感嘛所以我們才會提這個案子那很好如果經過這樣的討論你們說你們要提出某些辦法就提出來主席講的提出來以後我們去說服民眾看看民眾的有沒有接受好不好那有接受或許這個法就可以擱著那如果沒有的話我們可能這個法在馬上就送好不好那大家一起努力啦一起來努力我們理性的來提案子然後共同來討論好不好"},{"start":4344.264,"end":4354.541,"text":"好 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1839.059,"end":1863.586,"text":"立法院所三讀通過的職權行使法．還有刑法修正案提出了正式的覆議那我們本院之權希望盡快來處理因為15天內必須要處理完那我們在這裡希望今天的協商能夠把明確的時程把它定出來也能夠在明天院會的報告事項順利來覆為"},{"start":1866.385,"end":1869.358,"text":"所以在這裏希望說我們大家都能夠"},{"start":1871.021,"end":1896.774,"text":"本朱李姓本朱對這個民意託付的監督我們能夠朝野大家一致能夠盡快把覆議案做一個明確的一個議決那也希望說這個因為卓榮泰行政院卓院長才剛剛就職就對立法院提出覆議案這個是過去所沒有見過這樣的一個情況那對本院"},{"start":1899.955,"end":1922.265,"text":"也相當的不尊重所以我們也敬請希望卓文泰卓院長必須要來跟全國國人說明為什麼要提出覆議案這是一個國會自主的問題為什麼行政院自然難行我們希望說他們能夠來這裡表達還有一個雙向的溝通溝通完之後"},{"start":1925.126,"end":1946.978,"text":"我們就進行議決也希望大家都能夠理性來看待這個事情我們務實的來討論好不好也不要任何異常衝突的發生全歐國人全世界都在看好不好謝謝簡言之副坤吉總召救三個重點第一就是希望卓榮泰院長到院說明沒關係等一下他會進行第三個馬上就好"},{"start":1948.564,"end":1949.705,"text":"副議案提出在憲法徵求條文裏面有明定處理的時程"},{"start":1975.674,"end":1982.261,"text":"在憲法下我們本來就應該在憲法19條文所定的期限當中予以處理"},{"start":1983.627,"end":2008.723,"text":"就舉行的方式以及舉行的時間其實過去也都有潛力可以援引因為我大概看了一下全院委員會跟投票以前地震事法是差一天那個時候的地震事法是1月27號全院委員會1月28號投票"},{"start":2010.191,"end":2029.785,"text":"那《會計法》的話,《會計法》那個時候也沒有邀請政院院長然後就直接全院委員會當天就投票那那個時候是6月13號處理,就當天全院委員會然後同時那天投票"},{"start":2030.865,"end":2048.205,"text":"那要分一天或是分兩天來加以進行我覺得以立法院整個的運作有效率為最高的考量那其他的事情我們明明沒有什麼特別的堅持就尊重其他各個黨團大家所表示的意見"},{"start":2053.866,"end":2068.839,"text":"這個我們OK基本上面把時間劃出來然後都談好了這樣子就OK副管理總召有提請卓榮泰院長到院來說明你這邊是開放的對 我們不反對接下來我們請民進黨黨團柯總召"},{"start":2071.661,"end":2098.153,"text":"韓院長﹖各位選項代表首先對韓院長剛才再問的就是說請院長來到院說明覆議案這憲法政策條文所規定很清楚也不是在強調啦也不是說什麼這個事情所以我是覺得我們把這個事情講清楚針對剛才副分局總召所談的有三點我不同意解"},{"start":2100.827,"end":2108.539,"text":"二、不尊重立法院三、國會自主這到底有沒有憲法常識"},{"start":2110.033,"end":2134.28,"text":"剛才黃國昌已經馬上打給你了這個條文本來就是這個順序這個覆議案在立法院常常在覆議案也不是今天所謂的未見不在覆議請副總召你已經查一下過去的公報紀錄當然已經覆議了我要把表決完畢以後我們黨團意想說這節約會失憲我們營運體會失憲"},{"start":2138.601,"end":2151.726,"text":"那當天晚上 左院長臨時會議表示還會提覆議所以這個是照憲法而來的而且左院長講過"},{"start":2153.974,"end":2154.654,"text":"一天到晚能不能人聲"},{"start":2180.538,"end":2186.364,"text":"這條人事公職要讓我轉移轉移 轉重點了我說大家要有憲法 徵到憲法形式"},{"start":2187.321,"end":2207.887,"text":"第二個是不尊重你委員那你委員違憲的處理人難道行政院他的宣言機關他不會表示意見嗎他沒有辦法對於他施政這回事有問題嗎我可以說嗎我可以說嗎根本就還沒有違憲有沒有違憲你現在一直講沒有違憲那是現在來講嗎"},{"start":2214.052,"end":2235.18,"text":"我講說你是沒有違憲有沒有違憲大家有沒有違憲到先往法庭去處理沒有啦 你們兩個需要控制你不要控制他 你要控制我幹什麼你情緒不要受到影響好 我不要受到影響你要制止他 立法官會你要制止他 兩岔回了他講話都很簡短很簡短"},{"start":2239.042,"end":2247.898,"text":"他所謂不尊重立法院根本沒有先進嘗試他已經七大點理由列在那裏很清楚你去看一看"},{"start":2249.002,"end":2270.716,"text":"你可以把他 讓前委員把他叫來問 你要多問幾個 多問幾天也沒有關係找一堆人去 去碰也沒關係這個是武器對等的嘛第一個 第三 這個不是從國會製作然後國會律從法案違憲的扣錢 包括行政院的實質的施政權以及這個違反"},{"start":2272.997,"end":2283.446,"text":"而反憲法70條正在預算他都不能有意見嗎?到底整案是不是先進體制?所以這三點大家要講完全部錯顏哲同意,你講顏哲第一個,我們也不必再講說民進黨會佔領主義台啊沒人講說有的沒的"},{"start":2295.472,"end":2297.653,"text":"對我們來講是一種侮辱我已經提出抗議"},{"start":2324.227,"end":2345.618,"text":"也不會在那裏卑躬誰隱 國民黨的案長不會在那裏卑躬誰隱你自己好像自己非常心中有一些比較不正常的想法你自己把它講出來 絕對沒有那個事情我會幫你懂我是要和我講 講到看大家可以同意互裕這是我們期待 不行的話"},{"start":2346.819,"end":2352.796,"text":"還有事件途徑．問題是總統簽了以後還有事件途徑．至於．章委員剛才講的"},{"start":2356.142,"end":2376.712,"text":"照簽署這條文這是對的第二個方式要談時間要談要在同一天也要在不同一天他所提議的一個就是會計法覆議會計法覆議是以前沒有說前委員會來問為什麼呢因為那個方面文子抽很清楚嘛"},{"start":2377.612,"end":2399.714,"text":"所以都當作覆議所以沒有什麼好再去說什麼爭辯的那大家都有共識嘛那是錯誤嘛所以這個那是與所謂沒有前任委員會直接同覆議那時候朝委都認為這個應該更正嘛徐文昌為這個事情你還看滿久啊所以解歷史我們要把他還原歷史真相"},{"start":2400.655,"end":2424.425,"text":"今天我們要談的就是說那個兩個才一百、兩個一百跟一個一百五嘛今早時間一定要完成嘛6月25日已經完成以前采訪會議案是2月6日進來2月19日完成2020采訪會議案也都是不管誰執政都會按照憲法"},{"start":2425.806,"end":2453.375,"text":"是從憲法的行政行為來做不管文黨民黨都是一樣因為這個沒有人可以抵抗憲法所以對於我剛剛講的我是一無所謂的他現在還認為是合憲那合憲不合憲等到覆案結果那表決結果今天要實現的話表決結果總統已經要公告"},{"start":2454.275,"end":2473.374,"text":"公告以後,只要我們黨團實現、行政院實現,至於監察院要實現,我們都尊重,千分之一都會實現因為影響到監察院這樣委員之間的行使,無法施治的問題所以我的言論是這樣當然在這種時間裡面,我的看法是這樣"},{"start":2477,"end":2506.28,"text":"這不是效益不效益的問題,這是時間來的,總之是這個時間嘛所以這個時間大家兩邊都要懂完嘛,都要去遐想說明我看昨天朱祐文在電視上講說要百場以上我是覺得那是一回事,那是誇大其詞的名次嘛那中午開始各黨都開始遐想說明去溝通嘛那這自己找回自己的群眾自己去說明自己的理念,這是好的"},{"start":2507,"end":2514.646,"text":"這不是所謂效率的問題,這是在時間範圍內一定要完成,但是方式怎麼樣等一下再談對不起,我濃縮一下三位總召的講法,就是新任院長到院來做報告,這一點是不是三個黨團都同意?"},{"start":2534.571,"end":2561.385,"text":"好 這第一件事情這第一件事情沒有很重要大家都同意我們先確定這一點第二點就是下週一三四我們則一天來開行政院這個我們來開全院委員會下星期一三四請問一下三個總召等一下你會發言沒問題啊我們先把兩個重點確定下星期一三四我們是不是就選一天來開全院委員會"},{"start":2563.171,"end":2585.39,"text":"柯總統您看下禮拜 下禮星期一不是 我先問一下對 我知道 我們先確定這兩個這個草原鄉的結論是 草原鄉是這樣的我不好意思去講你啦齁但是一般大家說好嘛 你要喬 你要喬你現在先割下去沒有沒有沒有 我沒有割我就說 徵詢一下大家你也不必嘗試啦 就先講好嘛再講嘛"},{"start":2586.03,"end":2599.64,"text":"那如果大家都同意我們先確定請左院長來到院來說明報告這一點我們來折一天時間第二個就是時間了那能不能要拜託大家聚焦在這個重點上請侯孟凱書記長然後請吳書記幹事長請準備"},{"start":2604.443,"end":2624.898,"text":"好謝謝院長我想剛剛行政院長因為覆議案要來立法院得邀請行政院長來說明這是立院職權行使法覆議案的這個章節清楚明白規定也因此我們剛剛三個黨團都一致共事邀請行政院長來說明並且被質詢我想這個是大家沒有問題的"},{"start":2625.999,"end":2646.019,"text":"那我也先還原一下柯總召也不用卑躬攝影啦這個我們講的我的原話講的是說任何人用暴力衝突意識杯葛的話發起者負起完全責任並沒有講哪一個黨團也不用杯葛攝影也不用對號入座不過我接受剛剛柯總召的抗議"},{"start":2646.739,"end":2647.12,"text":"我們其實 院長"},{"start":2661.92,"end":2662.02,"text":"主席"},{"start":2678.994,"end":2679.474,"text":"明天6月14日"},{"start":2695.879,"end":2721.938,"text":"我們有沒有一個可能性也是院會時間如果我們可以接受的話我們何不就直接來處理這個覆議變更議程上午變成全院委員會那邀請行政院長一樣是他已經預留時間來去做總諮詢邀請行政院長早上就來做這個覆議案的一個報告並且上午我們把這個報告來做一個結束下午就可以來做一個院會的一個表決"},{"start":2722.92,"end":2729.716,"text":"我想這樣子可能大家就可以很清楚明白知道這個覆議案的一個態度跟掌握方向"},{"start":2730.951,"end":2757.251,"text":"那如果說在上午因為明天早上是禮拜五會有國事論壇所以說從10點鐘開始也因此上午的時間各黨團比如說院長通常報告差不多20分鐘左右報告完畢之後各黨團推派代表來去做一個質詢所以我想這可能大家來討論一下以上午差不多一點以前能夠結束的各黨團的推派人數大家可能來做一個這個確定方向那中午"},{"start":2757.951,"end":2786.07,"text":"議事人員布置一下會場下午兩點半就可以開始來做投票我試圖先提出來這樣的一個方向那如果說大家覺得是在明天確實時間上來講因為行政院長本來明天就已經安排好要過來而且大家也都把時間明天安排好也是院會時間所以這是第一個那如果說大家真的覺得是說這麼短暫的時間內其實因為行政院他早就已經把這個理由給備妥了那如果說沒有辦法的話"},{"start":2786.59,"end":2801.472,"text":"是不是下個禮拜一也是我們的委員會的時間我們就來做全院委員會那當天就整天來做全院委員會那我們也一樣早上9點就可以請行政院長來做覆議案的一個說明那並且被質詢"},{"start":2802.754,"end":2828.117,"text":"那整個質詢時間很充分剛剛柯總照也講說要理性溝通開放那我們就好好的一整天的時間來做一個質詢那可能政黨的代表就可以派比較多一點那到禮拜一全院委員會整個結束之後禮拜二院會6月18號上午我們就可以來做一個投票表決因為這個6月18禮拜二因為這個覆議案"},{"start":2830.011,"end":2845.147,"text":"我們的職權行使法也是規定就是一定是要用投票表決的方式所以早上9點到11點也許兩個小時的時間來做投票表決那但是如果大家都已經提早投完票的話也許就可以提早開票就如同正副院長選舉一樣"},{"start":2846.868,"end":2863.893,"text":"下午2點半我們繼續進行行政院長的總諮詢因為畢竟我們這個會期已經在之前的超越協商已經講出7月16號是會期結束所以說其實如果說我們又再加入當初我們在討論的時候其實是沒有考慮到說有這個覆議案"},{"start":2864.913,"end":2882.141,"text":"的插入所以禮拜二6月18號的院會我認為是上午可以投票投票完之後下午來做行政院長總諮詢因為其實我們很多委員也都已經準備好還有很多的議題要來去救教我們的行政院長那最後我只簡單一點"},{"start":2883.922,"end":2910.905,"text":"剛剛柯總召有講到是不知道是不是說溜嘴說這個當天我們國會改革法案一結束之後當天晚上卓榮泰院長就在臉書上說他會提出復議但是我印象非常深刻到5月31號我們的傅坤祺總召質詢卓榮泰院長的時候卓榮泰院長是說他連條文都還沒看到換言之這就已經治證這是先射箭再劃法不過"},{"start":2912.102,"end":2926.957,"text":"既然各政黨都有各政黨的立場所以我只提醒既然這樣的話我們大家就就事論事很清楚明白我們剛剛已經把我們兩個方案提出來我們希望各黨團能夠針對這兩個方案或是如果認為"},{"start":2928.078,"end":2932.561,"text":"你們提出一個比較具體的方案 我們可以聚焦在這個時間上面好不好 以上感謝"},{"start":2965.385,"end":2986.998,"text":"那黃光商總召請繼續請發言我覺得我們那個發言的順序的規則到底是怎麼樣是不是今天先請院長確定一下有的時候用舉手有的時候用罩輪那規矩到底是怎麼樣我覺得院長立下的規則我們大家都願意遵守那這個規則是不是先訂好"},{"start":2988.494,"end":3014.86,"text":"我希望能夠平均發言例如我們民進黨發言完國民黨發言完民進黨發言完但是有的時候會有人提早舉手所以我在這個時候我就要問一下第二輪或第三輪沒有發言的政黨請問一下你們要不要補充發言形式上一定是平均大家都是有發言的次序這一點很重要所以我就問你有沒有二次發言那如果你有現在都已經第二次發言"},{"start":3016.092,"end":3024.489,"text":"您發言完畢就是請民進黨第二輪發言請謝謝院長我基本上是建議這個規則就把它立下來啦要不然每一次黨團協商的時候"},{"start":3027.293,"end":3050.505,"text":"到底規則是什麼大家都不是很清楚的話我覺得對於黨團協商的效率沒有什麼太大的幫助那也就是說未來如果說就三個黨團大家輪流就平均發言的話當然輪到你你不想講你可以放棄嘛那也讓院長不用那麼辛苦嘛然後在那邊看誰有舉手誰沒有舉手誰先舉誰後舉誰舉得長誰舉得短"},{"start":3053.586,"end":3074.994,"text":"我覺得這個規則如果把它立下來的話我們都樂於遵守這個沒有什麼問題那第二個事情是說我還是會認為我們在黨團協商的時候基本上就針對院長所要召開的議事事項實質的來進行協商不要再扯一堆有的沒有的"},{"start":3075.954,"end":3087.935,"text":"因為浪費大家的時間在那邊進行人身攻擊到底有什麼樣子的意義呢完全都在講自己主觀的一些想法甚至對別人進行謾罵"},{"start":3089.895,"end":3102.871,"text":"然後說人家沒有憲政常識然後說一些有的沒有的說當初會計法的覆議是因為文字修正要還原歷史真相這太可笑了吧2013年會計法99條之1為什麼會覆議"},{"start":3106.94,"end":3109.062,"text":"現在是可以插嘴嗎?現在是可以插嘴嗎?"},{"start":3133.41,"end":3149.6,"text":"沒有我只想請院長才是啦以後大家按麥克風是別人在講話其他人都可以按麥克風講話嗎就把規矩講好嘛不要永遠好像就有人可以按著麥克風在那邊插人家的嘴在那邊罵人"},{"start":3157.728,"end":3159.25,"text":"大法官嗎?"},{"start":3175.891,"end":3176.471,"text":"總統在什麼時候稱讚國勤?"},{"start":3189.813,"end":3196.816,"text":"我重新問他他連內容是什麼都不曉得他要去覆議好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦好啦"},{"start":3211.523,"end":3216.406,"text":"能不能拜託大家 尊重一下黃國昌總召發言好嗎黃國昌兄情緒不要受影響 請繼續"},{"start":3226.571,"end":3249.906,"text":"各位來院長我情緒不會受什麼影響因為其實我記得我在前幾次的協商當中我也很清楚的跟院長報告過我每次來這邊協商的時候我都是希望針對院長所召集協商的事項就是論事針對問題表達意見這樣就好了那每一黨有他各自的立場說清楚就好了但"},{"start":3250.906,"end":3279.936,"text":"幾次下來我沒有辦法去接受一個是在當黨團協商的時候有人刻意用這個黨團協商的現場然後在對別人進行人身攻擊發表他自己的長篇大論那講完了一輪而以後根本沒有重點啊針對這個議事要討論的事項根本沒有重點啊純粹都只是在罵人啊那如果遊戲規則是這個樣子的話那我們就要把話給講清楚嘛"},{"start":3282.093,"end":3300.811,"text":"那特別又在講什麼還原歷史真相2013年《會計法》919條之1的歷史真相就是四個黨團的總召躲在一場背後的會議室簽下了可恥的《會計法》的修正要幫貪污犯除罪化免除一切法律責任"},{"start":3301.977,"end":3312.23,"text":"那個時候公民團體群起反彈那個時候才受不了蘇貞昌才出來道歉馬英九才出來道歉如果只是文字修正的話"},{"start":3313.584,"end":3342.249,"text":"用得著藍綠兩大黨的黨主席出來跟社會道歉嗎那也正是因為那件事情從頭到尾就太丟臉了嘛丟臉到不想要請行政院院長來院裡面去做報告嘛大家就直接趕快把票投一投讓覆議案成功嘛你要談還原歷史真相那就把事情談清楚嘛那只不過說我其實不願意再去扯以前的事情因為這就不是今天"},{"start":3343.149,"end":3343.75,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3360.458,"end":3387.944,"text":"我們也是趕快趕來這邊質詢趕快來這邊協商希望協商可以早點結束我們回去各個委員會還有各個委員會質詢的事項要來加以處理那回到剛剛院長所問的問題的本身對於A案明天就要處理還是B案禮拜一開全院委員會禮拜二來處理台灣民眾黨黨團都可以接受以上"},{"start":3389.855,"end":3417.475,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總接下來請吳思瑤幹事長發言首先我想還是適時釐清一下有關於《會計法》的覆議案很清楚就講覆議案不要扯到《會計法》之前在修法的過程《會計法》的覆議案之所以提出行政院的覆議就是針對《會計法》99條之1增列第二項支用研究"},{"start":3418.416,"end":3442.734,"text":"研究計劃費不乏人員之範圍．依立法院提案各版本之條文及說明．均含教授在內．但是三讀條文的時候．發生文字的疏漏．漏了教授的教這個字．所以確實是因為文字疏漏．有勸明．有欠明確．及恐發生執行的爭議．所以這是2013年提出會計法99條之1．"},{"start":3446.357,"end":3460.154,"text":"的覆議案的緣由黃國昌委員扯遠了你扯到的是會計法在修正討論的那個過程但是我們今天在講覆議案不是嗎覆議案的事實真相就是因為當初"},{"start":3462.197,"end":3477.893,"text":"議事委員在物質三讀的文字就是漏了一個教職員的叫這個字所以行政院在那個時候提出覆議案也正因為他只是補正文字的疏漏所以是非常快那一次的覆議案同一天處理"},{"start":3478.913,"end":3483.257,"text":"尋答各黨指派一個人國民黨一個民進黨一個親民黨一個臺聯一個而且每個只發言三分鐘這些都可以佐證會計法當時的復議的緣由就是文字的疏漏這個一定要補正說明好嗎"},{"start":3496.869,"end":3510.612,"text":"第2個呢我還是覺得有一點小小的不解跟遺憾我覺得這一屆的立法委員為什麼每一次在討論的事情大家都不太願意花時間討論我必須說朝野協商何其重要各黨邊在這裡處理今天的主題叫做覆議案我們好好交換意見這個討論何其珍貴這是一個補正的機會所以同樣我們都登記了各個委員會的質詢但是黨邊的職責"},{"start":3526.235,"end":3554.622,"text":"就是在這裡把這個覆議案的朝野協商好好處理我不希望大家坐在這裡都是趕鴨子時間快委員會要質詢了我覺得這樣子我們黨邊的富有的責任可能這樣子也有點輕忽帶多自己的責任我們委員會都往後排沒有問題不要有時間壓力因為這樣發言我覺得壓力好大喔院長我們要好好討論不要讓這一屆的立法院成為最不愛討論的立法院這樣是不好的回到今天的主題"},{"start":3555.942,"end":3568.958,"text":"覆議的提出過去已經有這次是第14次中華民國行政院跟立法院行政院提起覆議第14次所以有非常清楚的運行的規範經驗"},{"start":3571.101,"end":3597.473,"text":"民進黨也絕對遵守議事規則不會因為杯葛讓它來不及在15天之後就失效這個前提非常明確我相信各黨都一樣不會有任何一黨要刻意蓄意的杯葛讓覆議案的運作行使投票是不順利的我想各黨都展現了這種民主精神跟風度不會有所以OK大家放心因為不會有人惡意杯葛"},{"start":3597.853,"end":3600.875,"text":"所以就沒有擔心15天處理不完的那個時間壓力或者是儘早處理的那種時間壓力所以從時間點來看我們應當讓這個覆議案成為這一次的法案跟行政院他認為至愛難行的這個部分"},{"start":3617.043,"end":3639.202,"text":"再一次補課的機會我用補課來形容這次的事情的覆議案的行使也是再一次對話的機會也是再一次審視的機會所以我們已經在國會的擴全法案裡頭已經失掉了很多討論的機會這一次的覆議案的行使Review"},{"start":3641.004,"end":3658.493,"text":"補課補正的機會不要再重蹈覆轍不要再快快轉不要再就表決就處理我覺得社會在看我們各黨的態度復議的本質就是reviewrediscussion大家去重新審視這個議案本身"},{"start":3661.115,"end":3688.24,"text":"所以也沒有時間快快快投票投票投票快轉快轉快轉真的不能再重蹈覆轍一次不需要把時間壓縮得那麼緊這是第二個我們時間有充裕的時間在15天之內各黨有共識這個沒有時間的壓力好再來因為要重新審視所以院長要來報告他當然要來報告他當然要來說明他當然要提出行政院認為治安難行的層面"},{"start":3690.42,"end":3690.962,"text":"所以院長來報告"},{"start":3693.578,"end":3721.529,"text":"都應當也有充分完整的時間好好對話所以非常樂於我個人都認為歡迎各黨都安排人來問因為它就是一個review的機會我相信在野黨對於行政院長提覆議有很多不以為然就透過那個詢問的時間來好好再討論一次所以我以過去我們過去已經行使的13次的覆議案我就挑時間比較近的幾次"},{"start":3722.449,"end":3732.132,"text":"我們來看看那個討論的密度如果是以我從比較近的講地政室的那個發言人數是國民黨7個民進黨7個臺聯2個武黨1個所以加起來是17位委員每位各10分鐘"},{"start":3739.855,"end":3763.108,"text":"因為要好好討論嘛就會計法因為會計法剛剛說是文字疏漏所以四個黨只都派一個人一個人只有三分鐘他是一個例外再來在2008年的農會法的時候那是國民黨民進黨親民黨臺聯無盟那時候無黨聯盟每一位十分鐘各派一個所以是五位的發言"},{"start":3764.008,"end":3770.512,"text":"三一九這個真相調查委員會的覆議案那個條例的覆議案是2004年當時民進黨派8個國民黨6個親民黨4個臺聯2個無盟2個武黨1個加起來是23個委員每位10分鐘"},{"start":3779.498,"end":3781.359,"text":"在2003的公投法的覆議案裡頭一樣民進黨8個臺 國民黨6個 親民黨4個臺聯2個 無盟2個 武黨1個加起來是23位每位10分鐘才化法2002年"},{"start":3794.645,"end":3810.597,"text":"民進黨4個 國民黨4個 親民黨4個 台聯2個 武黨1個加起來15個 好像每個是5分鐘我花一點時間把我所整理的這些人數講出來就是說朝野行政在立法之間都非常重視覆議案的形式因為它就是一個在討論的過程"},{"start":3811.818,"end":3840.697,"text":"所以過去行使的這個經驗裡頭 院長他來報告跟說明然後委員充分的Welcome Most welcome有意見各黨團多派人而且多則一位10分鐘以上或是大家認為有必要這一次一個要15分鐘 這都可以談所以一個充分討論的前提是覆議案行使的一個很重要的目的所以我認為好好的讓我委員們跟行政院長好好的來進行對話這個是重要的所以他需要花時間"},{"start":3841.998,"end":3868.564,"text":"也不能快轉跳號人數少然後每個問短短我想這不是大家想要的覆議案第三點就講到距離提出到行使表決投票的那一刻我同樣以過去的幾次經驗來講地政事法是7天宋達根結束是7天會計法因為是文字疏漏所以他很快兩天農會法是花了13天"},{"start":3870.1,"end":3899.315,"text":"那這319針調的那個條例是花了12天那公投法是花了7到8天然後才化法是花了13天換言之都在這個合理的15天裡面但因為是重大議案我以我剛剛講的像才化法啦319腔調的特別條例或是農會法那個是很大的重大議案的話都是讓大家有審視的充分的時間所以都花到13天12天去行使它"},{"start":3900.055,"end":3909.265,"text":"所以我以過去的執行的經驗跟套用在這一次的覆議案裡頭大家都認同它是一個重大議案所以要在審視的過程、review的過程"},{"start":3915.211,"end":3941.993,"text":"充分的給空間給時間而這樣的review的過程不只給立委跟行政部門冷靜思考好好在對話同時我們也很樂見各黨都在各地有公民的宣講這都是好事就是讓社會也去討論關注這個事情這都好事所以終結來講我剛剛歸納了過去的表決的行使時間到巡打所花費的各黨的"},{"start":3943.374,"end":3961.326,"text":"派出來的精銳好好來跟行政院再battle一次對於法案到底有沒有違憲到底有沒有摯愛男性好好的來發言的過去的發言的人數的安排跟時間的安排乃至於回到覆議案的本質這一次國會擴全法案的本質它的影響非常大"},{"start":3962.006,"end":3981.86,"text":"不管對於行政立法的權利的行使甚至對於人民的權利義務的行使也都受到影響的前提下重大議案不要再有時間壓力然後為快而快我個人都認為review的機會就好好的來重新再來審視條文所以在這樣的前提下"},{"start":3983.141,"end":4005.443,"text":"不會有人去杯葛讓他拖過15天自動失效不會所以don't worry所以我個人會認為現在的時間點如果說從今天是6月12號13號我們在協商那到我們deadline是20收到的時間是25號所以其實下週或下下週"},{"start":4007.085,"end":4020.632,"text":"就是一個關鍵的時刻那我個人認為以我剛剛說的充分在討論在對話在審視的這個精神以及援引過去的執行慣例我認為下週五或是下下週二21跟25號都會是在那個時間裡頭然後可以踐行我剛剛期待的各黨在發言在討論的那個創造最大的對話空間的前提"},{"start":4035.499,"end":4049.774,"text":"我是說對不起院長我沒有現在就時間上來做因為我認為那個是時間點等一下大家來討論我現在在處理一個大的立場跟態度的分析所以我認為因為剛剛有在野黨委員提到說就是17號18號"},{"start":4051.736,"end":4064.659,"text":"我反而認為在15天以內反而後面的院會有18號的院會21號的院會25號的院會那同樣21跟25都是一個可行的選項我是在說明就沒有一定要18號的那個選項那覆議的目的是什麼Rediscussion國會擴全法案就是沒有discussion我們不能再一次沒有討論就要處理這是我的態度也很懇切的跟大家分享我的觀點"},{"start":4080.603,"end":4098.928,"text":"主席 剛才講的重點是兩個 第一個希望能夠充分的討論 因為在發言人數這邊 第二個就是說他希望時間能夠延長一點 能夠大家更冷靜的面對 所以他的時間是在6月21號星期五 或者是6月25號星期二 這就是採現的"},{"start":4102.24,"end":4123.686,"text":"報告我還是在說我沒有在我這一輪的發言去做出時間的建議我只是在說明說有三次院會都是可以選擇的時間那針對侯孟凱署議長剛剛所提的AB兩案就這18號跟明天是完全不可能謝謝院長讓我再說明明天的議程昨天的程序委員會都已經排好了所以明天不可能早上來就我們透過朝夕時間來變更這樣對於已經安排諮詢的委員"},{"start":4126.867,"end":4128.208,"text":"不好意思 院長我們剛剛不是講過三個黨團大家輪嗎"},{"start":4152.89,"end":4157.162,"text":"如果這個是規則我們就按照這個規則走吧請紅毛開水長等一下跳來跳去"},{"start":4158.846,"end":4184.071,"text":"委員長那組織會議是在聽黃國昌指揮嗎?除了從來跳來跳去的?剛才等一下我把它講完好不好一開始的時候因為他們要談覆議案嘛我們提出來他們有意見所有他們有意見先講嘛所以他們然後忽然起黃國昌嘛然後我嘛然後現在又可以跳來跳去沒有沒有不是這樣他一直在講他一直在揮啦等一下你聽我講完好不好請說"},{"start":4185.968,"end":4200.503,"text":"現在竟然可以跳下去 後來大家回應就是這樣嘛然後現在我們不敢舉手說對你沒有關係但你剛才先講過他講完 換他講 換我講我說我都還講完嘛 再來講嘛這個你說對你有利就要跳下去"},{"start":4201.684,"end":4224.973,"text":"你就是在這個程序性問題在那邊亂打轉嘛我跟你講院長你只是主持會議你要定見我絕對公正OK那一開始是不是這樣這樣這樣來現在是以黨團為最重要的現在如果洪孟侃他現在二次發言黃國昌二次發言沒有關係我們一定要徵詢他嘛他們如果放棄發言就另外一回事那現在施要已經說完了剛才已經裁示過了嘛我知道你那裁示過了"},{"start":4226.299,"end":4243.066,"text":"是要講嗎 換這個這裡面有一個小小的不太一樣你說第一輪到隨便第二輪 開始就隨便插啦等一下 你到底我沒有在急我沒有在急 你現在馬上給黃某來講不是 黨團為主好不好 好 來請馬上開始第一輪是 等一下 我要講清楚阿現在是第三輪"},{"start":4255.307,"end":4272.253,"text":"你說第一輪以後就可以隨便擦了我們尊重不同的黨團沒問題罵到我馬上就是接受我罪他了啊黃昌也不要講話了你也不要來擦了啊黃昌罵到我的時候我馬上回應啊你不能回應啊這個遊戲規則OK啊滿賽啊也是可以啊"},{"start":4278.275,"end":4307.724,"text":"如果黨團放棄的話沒有人會放棄 什麼都要放棄今天到目前沒有人在放棄啊今天這個議案 但以前有放棄的啊以前放棄 但如果有放棄我們就有的時候 沒關係 等一下以前是這樣 好 那你先講 我們在後面講大家可以想牛 想牛都沒關係啦這常常有對講 不是沒有對講 無期間行政要講到前奏 什麼叫人身攻擊 什麼叫言論自由 什麼叫不同意見好不好好 我們請孟愷署長 謝謝 請把麥克風切掉那等一下 黃國昌突然站在我前面啊"},{"start":4308.204,"end":4323.742,"text":"你在黃董昭後面你剛才叫我不要再關照了院長我希望你公正出於意思好不好不是跟柯總昭無關院長看起來是很公正因為柯總昭我會回答我會回答不是你剛才本來說輪到我"},{"start":4329.008,"end":4346.036,"text":"不是因為黨團要 國民黨團跟民主黨團要二次發言沒有啦 那你給我裝瘋了嘛 你話也都亂講啊剛剛是黃國昌在講話 他們兩個在吵架 我要試圖制止他們兩個 讓他繼續講下去什麼你整天跟我說什麼我就關掉 你說下一個輪到我講 啊現在一個爺爺照料 你就說什麼什麼又跳來跳去 啊你當我是什麼莊育雄幹事長你聽我說明好嗎不是嘛 你剛剛是不是講說吳世堯講話換我 本來是該輪到我講的咧他會講得起我就咧沒有原則啦 沒有原則啦 沒有亂掉"},{"start":4359.163,"end":4384.763,"text":"這個所謂的原則黃國昌講到就沒有原則了黃國昌講到就沒有原則了什麼叫看到我的立場我在主席因為我當然要公平啊那你不是說輪到我嗎但是他其他黨團要發言我當然要讓他發言他第一次發言不然你就不要說他輪到我不然你不要指定我嘛你可以等一下啊不不不我告訴你你不要遇到他客氣到要靠夭壽遇到我我會記的我不吃你這一套啦你在說什麼什麼我在說什麼你也很愛演啦"},{"start":4385.629,"end":4389.573,"text":"我也是第一次換人啊為什麼你死定我了你為什麼又繞過去嘛因為他黨團其他黨的提出發言我必須要尊重他們等他們發言完還是會回到你身上你也要跟他說阿專委員抱歉現在換黨團來你稍微這樣講我會舒服一點阿專委員抱歉現在換黨團什麼叫換黨團"},{"start":4404.747,"end":4406.488,"text":"現在他們講幾次,現在我們一起來算第一個,傅昆吉總統講話"},{"start":4430.507,"end":4443.235,"text":"對不對你什麼時候讓我講過話我沒有啊你們三個人不要急嘛林世民也沒講話啊是你點名要等一下接下來是我講欸你不要叫我你不要點名我沒意見啊請你等一下有錯誤嗎黃國昌講兩次啦什麼什麼我這個叫吼你這個才叫吼啦"},{"start":4450.353,"end":4470.825,"text":"你這個才叫喉啦我也可以挑戰你啊你是立委我是立委啊你只能選出來你叫做院長而已啊那你繼續喊吧什麼叫做我繼續喊你這什麼態度啊我是院長我朝野協商那你繼續喊啊你也可以繼續喊啊我挑戰你剛好而已啦你喊再大聲一點你也可以大聲一點啊你為什麼制止我講話誰制止你講話啦你剛剛才是輪到我為什麼你又跳過去開什麼桌子你"},{"start":4477.069,"end":4484.937,"text":"我已經說過等一下會回到你們自己什麼叫做你已經說了是你指揮的但你不要猜是我講你不要猜是我講我都講過兩次了我終於知道你為什麼血壓會高了因為你太不講道理了什麼叫我不講道理"},{"start":4491.38,"end":4516.765,"text":"等一下我回到民進黨黨團身上你就可以發言阿院長你還是有固定的邮寄規則阿你如果不要只剛剛才是說輪到我我不會有意見不要戴帽子我耍什麼權威了從頭到尾那你為什麼該你點名說施亞文輪到我的時候你刻意跳過去給別人這是什麼意思王國昌總統講得非常清楚每一個黨團平均發言我們剛剛講王國昌講話是聖職阿"},{"start":4518.985,"end":4519.105,"text":"國民黨黨發言委員"},{"start":4539.355,"end":4551.924,"text":"是我就 你還沒搞清楚嘛你不要裁示我你跳別人我沒意見嘛這你本來就是你院長在草野協商在主持嘛你就說我耍你給我跳過去你不然你也給我按捺一下是不是這樣說我也沒說過別說你運動因為你硬啦要跟你尊重就跟你尊重嘛一定會尊重你嘛可是你幹嘛給我耍這個呢我在耍什麼呢你不是裁示過你裁示說接下來輪到我我已經等多久了"},{"start":4569.104,"end":4580.884,"text":"蔡英雄天地良心什麼天地良心啊我只是會議我盡可能公平你還在雞蛋裡挑鋼筋不是挑骨頭啊什麼叫我挑鋼筋你如果不才是是我的話啊"},{"start":4929.295,"end":4950.335,"text":"好,我們準備開會,我會再宣布一次好,各位黨團幹部請坐,我們準備開會大家抓緊時間,謝謝各位黨團幹部都在這裡,讓我,容許我再宣布一次等吳思堯幹部長通完電話我就講"},{"start":4955.236,"end":4976.389,"text":"不用,我們時間到了我跟各位黨團幹部再一次報告因為我們只有三個黨團這個發言次序上很容易就運作了就A、B、C三大塊以後還是以黨團為主那如果黨團個別成員放棄發言,沒有關係,那就視同放棄但是黨團輪流,我再重申一遍以黨團為主"},{"start":4978.462,"end":4991.021,"text":"以黨團為主那如果以黨團為主就不會出大亂子也不會有個人的情緒等等那接下來我們請國民黨團侯孟楷書記長二次發言我真的不太懂等一下喔"},{"start":4992.595,"end":5016.148,"text":"這個有意規則怪怪的,我們坐下來對不對,因為在黨有意見嘛,我先講嘛,我們回答嘛接下去也應該是這樣嘛,照準嘛,可是我們有意見的話明天我講啦,讓大家平心靜靜講啦"},{"start":5017.426,"end":5033.601,"text":"這個遊戲規則就是說戰爭會議你再算一算我們就數羊數羊一二三四五算第一次是副總召發言一次第二次是洪某改水平兩次第三次是黃國昌發言他再發言二二黃國昌為什麼可以發言一次"},{"start":5035.462,"end":5041.164,"text":"吳春城不講話嗎沒有他不講話沒有那還有一個沒有來他也可以發言不講話就放棄嘛他還可以講話那還有一個沒有來他也可以講話我是講總良心話啦院長我是講良心話啦"},{"start":5063.456,"end":5074.899,"text":"所以沒有所謂吳征怎麼不講話他可以講話我上次不是說那我直接換一個人進來你說這樣可以嗎因為我還有一個沒有來沒有來可以講話嗎沒有來就放棄沒有講話就放棄嘛你們三個都講話在場五個都講話我們一見講完話我們三個再講話這個就是這樣嘛"},{"start":5085.882,"end":5099.613,"text":"我們不是不講話我們請書記長講對啊沒有關係你就放棄了嘛阿伊佛根本放棄嘛那你現在洪某凱就不能講話囉不是洪某凱照你這個邏輯洪某凱就不能二次發言啦因為李世民還沒講話可以講話可以講話可以了嘛不是講可以講話等下我們等一下我們剛才講得很清楚嘛就是說"},{"start":5108.203,"end":5135.997,"text":"我們在野黨五個都講話我都沒有意見換我們三個講話你們不會有意見好 余思榮不講那就代表他不講他有人代表講就好對 那吳征榮不講也是他講他講他就放棄了那我們這邊三個都要講啊因為你們講完黨團你們第三輪的時候可以講你們三個都可以講我沒有意見啊你們一次五個人講完換我們三個人講這是遊戲規則啊"},{"start":5138.072,"end":5164.867,"text":"然後為什麼突然出現可以改去黃國昌可以加兩次黃國昌可以加兩次對不對 要抄在前面因為他講到柯總総我只問你 侯孟楷可不可以二次發言可以那黃國昌為什麼不能二次發言等一下吳 吳思堯可不可以二次發言那可以啊 那就對了嘛那我們第一次發言先講完那再來二輪啊不是說黨團輪流過來嗎第一次講完再來二輪嘛當然是這樣啦現在進入第二輪了沒有 現在第一輪都還沒有講完他還沒講的啊"},{"start":5167.244,"end":5182.89,"text":"所以你們等下可以跟莊瑞雄啊沒有啊你們三個都要講我沒有意見你們兩個講都講我都沒意見我們三個都講大家可以講啦你講三次就夠了嗎柯總召現在是國民黨團國民黨團第三次發言嗎沒有沒有沒有等一下"},{"start":5189.272,"end":5195.275,"text":"一開始進來 國民黨團...我先算給你聽 因為你們民進黨團是第三位順位發言你也先告訴我 他突然把他剝奪掉沒有剝奪他這個意見就是這樣啊 突然不能講啊30秒鐘 你先把麥克風關起來好不好你麥克風都沒有關 你再換我麥克風"},{"start":5213.483,"end":5223.516,"text":"因為現在已經唱名侯孟凱書記了你不要這樣講我們都是協商的 直播的沒有關係是講道理啊 你可以叫我安排我們要侯孟凱書記長 二層我有意見章岳雄剛才唱的是說"},{"start":5228.919,"end":5250.195,"text":"投資人他就要不說了帝雲 我說你要說帝雲 你們五個都說帝雲也沒意見那我能說嗎這造成你現在講到關鍵的時候要趕快叫黃孟茄出來來爭辯嘛這一起回答沒有關係 都有機會你五個都說了 我三個都說了你不說不說是你的事你不可以說你兩個人說我們才兩個人說是你兩個人說的問題嘛有這種不講的問題嘛"},{"start":5259.092,"end":5261.674,"text":"現在是國民黨團發言每一個黨團都可以發言黨團要派誰是我們的事情"},{"start":5282.688,"end":5287.956,"text":"所以才不會出錯案子我們誰講話還要經過你同意喔我沒有你同意我們黨團要派誰要經過你同意喔你們三個都講話我沒有意見阿對啊那你沒有意見就閉嘴就好啦我什麼閉嘴我們三個都要講阿"},{"start":5298.43,"end":5304.732,"text":"我沒有說你三個不能講阿等到你們民進黨團發言的時候你們就可以講阿我們國民黨團現在紅木海講話不行嗎阿你為什麼說他不能講因為你們民進黨團第三個發言還沒有到阿你們都可以講我們現在是第三輪第一次現在已經第三輪了阿"},{"start":5317.336,"end":5328.989,"text":"你講了四輪第一輪第一次傅坤祺第一輪第二次黃國昌第一輪第三次你柯建民再來第二輪第一次我洪孟凱第二輪第二次黃國昌第二輪第三次胡思堯所以現在繼續第三輪第一次你可以理解嗎思堯委員"},{"start":5334.976,"end":5338.521,"text":"一輪就是那個黨團輪流說那我們現在已經進入到第三輪的第一次國民黨團不可能嘛我已經講了洪文凱發言了嘛你為什麼要這樣子勒"},{"start":5352.139,"end":5366.691,"text":"等一下就馬上回到你民進黨團發言一三輪第三次會請民進黨團到時候民進黨團看是推判黃國昌社會發言不是陷阱 民進黨團是公平的民進黨團發言是公平的嘛所以他黨團發言為什麼第一輪沒有說國民黨會發言國民黨最麻煩的地方他連國民黨還沒說你還說第一輪你還說國民黨會發言你知名也沒講話他沒有起訴"},{"start":5382.551,"end":5386.535,"text":"主席非常感謝您是非常公正的我們都看得出來第一輪是"},{"start":5406.392,"end":5425.422,"text":"三個黨團輪流國民黨團先第二民眾黨團第三民進黨團第二輪也是讓國民黨團在民進黨民眾黨團在民進黨團那民進黨團第一輪的第一次是柯建民總召發言第二輪的第一次是吳斯堯委員發言所以等一下民進黨團有第三輪發言的時刻所以可以不要再插話了嗎"},{"start":5428.844,"end":5442.777,"text":"副總長副總長我已經說明了我們現在是第三輪第一次國民黨的大會議那是不是可以不要再插話了好不好我覺得今天我們已經往前推進了不要再...我現在...您就是在我說話的時候您在插我的話"},{"start":5446.48,"end":5470.866,"text":"我們現在不是你現在是大家在討論程序的問題我們沒有在討論程序的問題我在進入實質發言我們沒有在討論程序的問題我在進入實質發言剛剛主席已經裁示我來發言主席有意見嘛我們一開始就已經尊重你了喔沒關係柯總召你這樣子就是在插話柯總召全部人都看到您在插話我現在在講說沒關係你自己說莊仁雄不要罵丟包好不好就第三輪的時候不會"},{"start":5480.071,"end":5494.92,"text":"我想黨團發言不是個人我們今天在這邊並不是因為我是洪孟楷我有發言機率其實自始至終從主席這個會期第一次開會的時候都講得非常明確我們今天來這邊是因為我們是幹部身份幹部有可能會換人"},{"start":5495.72,"end":5512.526,"text":"所以當下一個會期我不是書記長的時候我就不會在朝野協商進入所以我想主席至始至終都非常的明確感謝主席再來我們今天提出很負責任的也提出了方案一跟方案二其實不管是方案一或是方案二都不是快轉"},{"start":5513.246,"end":5541.276,"text":"我們當然也知道啊覆議案是行政院的權利行政院提出來覆議那立法院就要處理如果說大家講是說要這個要有這個充分討論時間那覆議案為什麼會有定時間15天裡面要處理完畢就代表是說對於國家重大政策我們當然要有一定時間內來去做處理而且這個是全國國人關注的重點媒體朋友也關心國人也關心到底我還有"},{"start":5541.536,"end":5559.749,"text":"更重要的是覆議案處理完畢之後我們還有很多民生議題法案也要處理不要因此而耽擱很多民生議題法案也因此我們提出方案一並跟方案二並不是要所謂的快轉我們當然也希望充分討論所以這是為什麼我們自始至終都很明確要求行政院長要來說明並且備詢"},{"start":5562.091,"end":5583.162,"text":"如果說在方案一上午全院委員會下午來院會表決可能有黨團有意見但是我必須再重新聲明這過去13次的覆議案裡面也曾經有過上午是全院委員會下午直接院會表決的所以這並不是我們首開先例以前就有過但我們也提出方案二"},{"start":5583.982,"end":5608.143,"text":"一整天下個禮拜一6月17號一整天來做全院委員會請行政院長從早上9點來說明之後我們備詢那下面的這個政黨代表我們當然就可以依比例來推派之如果說一個人假設10分鐘或是像之前專案報告院長有15分鐘的一個備詢時間的話我們推算過也許我們總數可以抓到"},{"start":5609.643,"end":5618.347,"text":"16至18位政黨代表平均分配882或772人數6月18日上午院會表決以現在的投票效率和院長副院長的投票狀況"},{"start":5633.439,"end":5658.813,"text":"在半個小時內其實大家如果說都到的話就可以投完票但我們預計比較寬鬆所以我們抓兩個小時但是我們希望今天協商能夠有個但書就是如果說大家都已經領票了除了院長不參與投票以外其餘院長也參與投票那如果說113位委員都投票完畢之後我們就可以先來做這個開票那就不用說拉那麼久時間那下午"},{"start":5659.793,"end":5681.786,"text":"新政院長繼續來做總諮詢2點半繼續來做總諮詢因為很多委員的這個總諮詢其實也都已經排出那再者是我知道說我們非常多的委員真的還是希望能針對新任的隔魁還不到一個月的時間能夠來做後續的一個諮詢所以我們提出來這樣的一個方案我想也是符合大家剛剛所講的"},{"start":5682.786,"end":5706.815,"text":"吳斯堯幹事長剛有提到不管是這個地政事法那時候是從提出來到覆議完整是7天的時間那我們也說如果以採取方案2的話6月11號提出來的覆議到6月18號處理完畢是8天的時間所以其實並沒有比較快跟地政事法來相比或說跟其他過去的覆議案來相比的話其實"},{"start":5707.995,"end":5732.724,"text":"方案二6月17禮拜一全院委員會6月18院會表決並沒有比較快反而它會落在一個非常平均的8天左右的時間我想也符合社會大眾的期待也符合我們的議事規則那更重要也希望是讓國人看到就是各黨團對於覆議案的態度以及我們能夠後續進行總諮詢以及各重大民生法案的後續推動以上謝謝"},{"start":5733.484,"end":5733.584,"text":"民眾黨黨團請發言"},{"start":5753.714,"end":5770.381,"text":"謝謝院長其實今天一開始的時候發言的規則我有請示過院長那我的記憶應該是不會錯啦就很清楚的講就三個黨團輪流嘛那這樣子院長也不用在那邊搞得很累啊誰有舉手誰沒舉手誰先誰後"},{"start":5772.722,"end":5783.934,"text":"那既然這是個黨團協商就是以黨團當作代表每一個黨團派一個代表在他輪到的輪次的時候進行發言那這樣子的整個程序進行就會很順暢那不會有"},{"start":5786.718,"end":5814.165,"text":"莫名其妙根本沒有輪到他發言的時候自己按著麥克風不斷的在發言這樣的情況發生嘛因為其實剛剛發生這樣子狀況的時候院長也可以看得出來我們很克制啊沒有搶著按著麥克風要講話那這裡是黨團協商那就各個黨團把各個黨團按照今天的意識所要處理的事項大家把自己的立場跟意見表達完整就好了嘛"},{"start":5816.324,"end":5831.209,"text":"沒有必要在別人要發言的時候自己按著麥克風在那邊干擾人家的發言這個恐怕也不是黨團協商的本質跟應該遵守的紀律跟規則這個是第一個就程序上面的事項所以剛剛院長完全按照黨團來輪流"},{"start":5833.01,"end":5861.245,"text":"至於各個黨團要派誰當作代表其他的黨團當然都尊重也不會說三道四的去指責說其他的黨團為什麼誰講話誰不講話每一個黨團要派誰講話這本來就是每一個黨團自己要決定的事情第二個事情是說對於在處理的時間上下個禮拜一整天開全院委員會那你看時間上面有多少"},{"start":5862.233,"end":5881.267,"text":"那各個政黨彼此之間的代表的人數到底要怎麼派我們基本上沒有什麼太強烈的意見公平就好了公平就好了所以17號進行全院委員會18號來進行投票的這件事情我們是表示支持的"},{"start":5882.068,"end":5909.382,"text":"那第三個重點是說那竟然今天各個黨團大家也都有共事嘛不會有在站主席臺或是干擾議事行為這樣子的事情發生的話那我會建議啦就避免大家搞得很疲憊還要提前一天去排隊等等避免擔心議事沒有辦法順利的進行那是不是可以考慮說如果今天就日期跟時間大家能夠達成共事的話"},{"start":5910.302,"end":5924.275,"text":"把不干擾議事的進行不要去佔領主席臺這樣的事情我們也能夠白紙黑字的把它寫在黨團協商的結論上面那這樣子也可以確保接下來議事進行的順暢以及以上兩點意見 謝謝"},{"start":5926.664,"end":5940.631,"text":"國商總召的意思就是說6月17號院長來到院說明完6月18號上午來表決出席大家各黨團派的代表772原則上你沒有太大的意見接下來請民進黨黨團請莊委員"},{"start":5952.607,"end":5979.578,"text":"委員長,很抱歉,我們節目這麼久,大家對我說第一次我要提一個很重要的本來我們是上個禮拜五停止搜案,程序委員會剛好碰到端午節,所以說這個在昨天這樣的一個增列其實程序上怪怪的"},{"start":5981.022,"end":5985.347,"text":"這個其實你要再整列 停止收案你要再整列連這個都要朝野協商"},{"start":5987.416,"end":6011.122,"text":"這個院長我提出了這個是很重要一點的那另外第二個就是我倒會覺得朝野協商啊院長你也不要去期待說大家都很紳士啦吵來吵去都很正常啦本來就很正常讓大家多一點講話的一個時間也不是壞事因為你把它算一算大家講的很多到最後都會有很多情緒的一個話"},{"start":6012.302,"end":6027.661,"text":"所以我剛才在等,我也很久像這樣,剛才和你一樣,那一句但是重點就是說,為什麼會產生這種狀況?因為我尊重你是主席啊,你的才事,才事我就當真,重點是因為這個原因"},{"start":6028.362,"end":6048.435,"text":"否則他們在講話的時候﹐所有的對面在講話的時候﹐動不動就批評柯總召的時候﹐什麼人身攻擊 都咕嗅鼻沒味 都差不多啦 曹偉鑫讓大家講的話都差不多啦大家本來情緒就是一大堆啦 但是我倒是這樣建議啦 以說在整個這個國會改革的一個法案裡面"},{"start":6051.096,"end":6066.226,"text":"藍白有他自己的看法共同去做一些版本的一個提出我們都尊重可是在整個覆議案裏面我也在這裏面也不一定大家都笑和笑既然大家覺得很重要的話"},{"start":6066.946,"end":6069.788,"text":"我倒認為也不用這麼急啦我倒認為不用這麼急你像比如說我們從幾個從過去大家提到的不管是地政室、會計法還有農會法還有319到公民投票、復議到財政收支劃分法有七天的"},{"start":6085.356,"end":6106.27,"text":"有兩天的但是你去看農委法又是13天的財政收支劃分法你在2022年那一次我相信各個黨團都很清楚又是13天的所以我倒反而會覺得說報告完了以後你說人數的部分與其大家在批評說這一次的一個審議的過程裡面大家討論的"},{"start":6110.506,"end":6120.58,"text":"時間比較少那是不是在這一次再做充分的一個討論我是做這樣的一個建議對整個立法院來講的話也是好事藍跟白多數嘛"},{"start":6125.41,"end":6147.579,"text":"那你們說這個是你們想要的一個法案倒就要遵照整個民主的一個程序來嘛這個行政院卓院長他去按照整個憲政的一個程序來提出覆議這也很合理這也不要有過多政治攻防我們都尊重可以有不同的一個解讀但是不是我苦口婆心的講說這一次我們立法院其實是重傷你說國會改革"},{"start":6150.748,"end":6172.856,"text":"南白認為是國會改革可是民進黨我們就認為說這個過程裏面是不是我們操之過急那外界的看法又是如何你像比如說國民黨他們也認為說在臺南賴清德總統的本命區他們也甚至於那個地方要去辦大型的一個演講民進黨也認為說那也該讓民眾去知道所以各黨之間各有他的一個看法在"},{"start":6179.838,"end":6194.913,"text":"那是不是我們立法院在這個地方既然卓院長要來這邊來這個覆議案裡面他要來做報告那有沒有可能說大家今天再討論一下這個過程比較讓外界去批評"},{"start":6196.074,"end":6217.608,"text":"說我們討論的這個程序在進行的黑箱也好或者說出條的部分都已經省略掉了那在這次覆議案裡面大家讓更充分來一個討論不用急著像國民黨剛提出來說我們大家就那天報告完以後一天就把它解決掉我的在這個地方來做這樣的一個建議好不好"},{"start":6218.893,"end":6230.375,"text":"謝謝總統選委員的發言您的重點大概是兩個第一個就是說時間可以往後推一點點第二個發言人數稍微更紮實更多元一點所以說772你希望再放大"},{"start":6231.738,"end":6251.362,"text":"改為11.11.2類似像這樣的意思經過充分的討論了解但是國民黨團提的不是當天就表決是第二天早上表決這個是有一點不太一樣接下來國民黨團有沒有寶貴意見馬上就你了這過來就是你了一黨團為之我們要講一下喔到目前為止我講一次而已喔紅毛黨講三次喔你講兩次你要講第三次"},{"start":6258.959,"end":6261.022,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":6277.508,"end":6288.614,"text":"我第二輪都還沒講你沒講你現在講第三輪他講第三輪他也講三輪了院長你不如呼喊他們啦他們所有辯論的都不構成理由啦而且下去下去亂講一通"},{"start":6292.7,"end":6293.021,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":6311.032,"end":6312.233,"text":"我現在已經推進到在討論什麼時辰"},{"start":6340.612,"end":6366.058,"text":"那當然剛剛國民黨已經提出因為這個是全國國人矚目甚至國企也在矚目那是不是明天院會我們直接這個全院委員會直接來質詢331也可以就趕快講完之後下午下午就可以來做一個投票"},{"start":6367.745,"end":6385.958,"text":"當然還有方案二是17號跟18號那現在執政黨有意見那也沒關係我們方案一方案一就先保留沒有關係啦方案二的部分應該是比較恰當方案二的話就是6月17號我們"},{"start":6391.883,"end":6409.758,"text":"從早上到下午一整天一整天也不影響到二五院會的施政總質詢的時間也都沒有影響到如果我們禮拜一來開全面委員會的話從早上到下午以過去慣例15分鐘來看的話"},{"start":6411.279,"end":6430.969,"text":"十分鐘也可以都沒有關係如果十分鐘的話這樣子的話早上九點鐘到十二點有三個小時下午兩點半到五點半也有三個小時有六個小時六個小時如果是十分鐘的話十分鐘的話那就是有十一十一二十一十一二"},{"start":6439.077,"end":6464.11,"text":"對對對我先把我的意見表達一下那這樣6個小時大概一個小時大概6位吧5到6位吧所以大概可以到有30位或是30到36位的的質詢30到36位的質詢含休息的話那大概30位是應該可以成行的那如果11 12的話至少在這個時間範圍內都還可以"},{"start":6470.067,"end":6481.251,"text":"現在應該確定兩個事情第一個就是時間上什麼時候可以確定到底哪一天開全院委員會哪一天來做議決"},{"start":6483.468,"end":6503.128,"text":"現在既然執政黨對明天來處理有意見是不是我們就折衷一下我們下禮拜一6月17號我們有一整天的全院委員會來做詢答等等當然還有中間院長可能有先報告20分鐘"},{"start":6505.911,"end":6506.111,"text":"主席"},{"start":6522.335,"end":6526.277,"text":"主席副總長接下來請民眾黨黨團有沒有意見?有意見請你稍等,沒關係,下面就是你的什麼黨團?黨團我講了一次而已"},{"start":6549.568,"end":6549.928,"text":"黃國昌總請發言"},{"start":6580.351,"end":6601.262,"text":"我想又繞回一開始我們在講那個基本上面會議規則的事情以黨團為代表跟以人為代表這個概念的區分其實沒有很複雜我想大家應該都可以很容易的理解沒有必要在這種地方上面爭執"},{"start":6602.983,"end":6617.967,"text":"甚至為了發洩個人的情緒隨便按麥克風在那邊質疑的指責用黨團當作代表是什麼概念我想真的一點都不難理解第二個針對剛剛院長所在槌尋的事項"},{"start":6623.428,"end":6651.578,"text":"就是七七二也好十一十一二也好我們基本上都可以接受那雖然十一十一二當然某個程度上面我們可以發言的時間有需要一些壓縮但我們都尊重我也不會刻意去爭執這樣的事情七七二十一十一二都可以那只不過說我們即使把它放大到十一十一二即使把它放大到十一十一二"},{"start":6652.398,"end":6675.164,"text":"我們既然有準備要花一天的時間來進行全院委員會的話那每位委員發言的時間可能再拜託院長請議事人員精算一下是不是有可能到15分鐘還是必須要維持10分鐘因為我必須幫台灣民眾黨黨團講的話就是我們如果只有兩個人的話"},{"start":6676.664,"end":6706.124,"text":"那等於是大概只有一個人10分鐘的時間來予發言但我必須要再強調我們不強求時間上面允許的話我覺得一個人15分鐘那如果真的會太趕一個人10分鐘我們也會接受 也可以接受那第三個事情是說因為覆議案基本上面的處理是針對行政院他所提出的覆議理由"},{"start":6707.784,"end":6732.651,"text":"來進行權惡委員會的說明跟詢答那行政院的覆議理由其實已經提出來了那它的內容也不複雜因為行政院所提出來的覆議理由我想大概正常的人閱讀大概半個小時就看完了那既然這個法案行政院也準備好了覆議理由因為我相信"},{"start":6733.431,"end":6753.127,"text":"行政院一定是經過他們的深思熟慮那匯集了整個行政團隊的專家精煉出這個覆議的理由那這個覆議理由也都提出來那我相信各個黨團各個委員大家也都看過所以我覺得在準備的時間上面下個禮拜一"},{"start":6754.128,"end":6782.374,"text":"來加以處理我覺得是非常充足非常充足的一個事件那這個以上是我們的的想法 謝謝謝謝民眾黨員 接下來我們請民進黨黨團我現在先表示一下剛剛黃國昌已經講了四次黨團他是超級黨團是吧我講才我現在還可以講第二次剛才"},{"start":6783.632,"end":6800.241,"text":"章英雄委員在抗議就說明明你就講好我講完會議是要講反章英雄講你就把他跳過去跳給黃沐凱你再操作這個就是說他現在不是要講理由裡面吃到國民黨的你要趕快叫黃國昌回答"},{"start":6801.261,"end":6824.199,"text":"這兩條我們來回答這個明眼人一看就很清楚院長我還是要講這樣的話第二個就是說我們剛剛講說一黨團那就從不用黨團嘛對不對就不會有跳來跳去一下黨團一下個人跳來跳去這遊戲規則要清楚中間我會插話說我和"},{"start":6825.84,"end":6845.827,"text":"我要講的分析也生氣把我插到大家這難免一定是彼此攻防那黃國昌講的不對我就跟他說等一下所謂的這個快去法是怎麼樣請他不要走,請黃國昌不要走好,我們現在來講這個我一個一個講我請問周恩來秘書長"},{"start":6851.789,"end":6878.21,"text":"假如說我們程序委員會受案的時間過去了因為我們昨天11號禮拜一才來到立法院程序委員會就沒有開嘛禮拜四又沒有開所以昨天禮拜三開了程序委員會那超過時間受案的這個是不是要超回協商我請問你認真回答這一題"},{"start":6879.131,"end":6883.877,"text":"在程旭委員律我們有收件的時間所以我們那個議事處不可能跟他排這個案在"},{"start":6898.075,"end":6925.55,"text":"昨天沒有排案所以我當時也跟議事處說明不能提案至於當天在開會到底要不要處理這不是我們議事處裡面所能夠置會的這個我講得很清楚所以在當天早上來我特別交代已經過那個時間了不能 議事處不能介入到裡面去所以我想當天我有跟處長特別說明過"},{"start":6928.573,"end":6935.928,"text":"就是變成你們當天的程序會要怎麼去決定不是我們幕僚所能夠介入的這是我特別要說明的文明長你講得很正確"},{"start":6938.611,"end":6962.089,"text":"歷來都是如此,超過時間要列案的一定要朝朝相同意才可列進去那昨天在吳宗憲主持的時候我們有抗議抗議說這不行,要朝朝相,朝朝相不管這個我...這個...這個有...程序不正義啊何來你現在很奇怪喔我要說什麼"},{"start":6966.531,"end":6976.694,"text":"有啊審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講審發會有講"},{"start":6995.109,"end":7008.89,"text":"那第一點這既然這樣的話你們第一案子說禮拜五早上就來執行校這案子覆議以後還沒列報告事項呢你怎麼去可能處理啊"},{"start":7009.691,"end":7029.335,"text":"怎麼有你這個遊戲規則難道不懂嗎現在連任務報告事項都還沒了你禮拜五就要開始執行你任務報告事項以後都哪一天執行哪一天投票這個要程序性的問題禮拜五還沒任務報告事項而且況且那個是違法處理的事情都有問題了這個是"},{"start":7036.638,"end":7052.948,"text":"獨處獨合理論．．就有問題．．你會拜國．．也沒有報告時間就要來執行．．你晚上來也不會答應你這個事情．．這個當然坦白講．．你現在就是要開快車．．開快車就是那時候禮拜一．．禮拜一來執行．．禮拜二來．．"},{"start":7058.15,"end":7081.836,"text":"來投票這個就是就是你們知道的未濟民意嘛你自己出來要撒謊說幾百年了我現在當然講得很清楚這個你來重新解釋這個覆議案都是有一個讓社會去冷靜讓你回來冷靜讓社會來看這個事情所以討論這才是民主啦才會有覆議當年是六月六月五號"},{"start":7084.357,"end":7109.053,"text":"2月6號提進來,2020年2月6號提進來,2月19號第七十三天才投票你來我不是要講很多例子,都是這個時間是一個很長的時間,院長請你喔你仔細聽一下感謝感謝,非常感謝我我有在看你的眼睛不好意思不好意思喔我可以講這齁,就是"},{"start":7110.114,"end":7117.872,"text":"覆議案不是像問題委員所講的這個什麼這個國會自主啊這個不尊重立法院啊"},{"start":7119.4,"end":7143.634,"text":"另外我要講的就是黃國昌也跑掉了所謂朝野協商我不會做人身攻擊但是朝野商有不同的意見不是人身攻擊我講說你這個沒有基本常識超過黃國昌都答應你這個什麼是人身攻擊這個是不同意見啦朝野商是可以大家講話你會限制人身的自由只能講說這個是這樣不能認輸嗎這個黃國昌根本"},{"start":7149.037,"end":7161.224,"text":"他現在跑掉,他不敢面對,我每次要跟他職的隊員說,一定百分之百會放棄反正我常常請回來吧,反正這樣,回來啦,不能選啦,拜託啦,叫誰比較好這是MNC喔?我講的是大道理啦,你們要拍手啦"},{"start":7170.763,"end":7184.171,"text":"這是言論自由這是朝委在認證的時候我要假說與說我可以講這個你也可以講那個都沒有關係都是在爭辯雲湖最可貴就是在爭辯因為黃國昌常常講我們來辯論昨天還講說我們到電視辯論我說你們委員會都不審查了什麼都破壞了現在講說早在來電視辯論每個人說話好笑 不能這樣那實在是害羞害羞 要想大事好"},{"start":7200.371,"end":7222.393,"text":"委員長稍微忍受 因為我要終於回答 因為這個援軍非常關鍵的 大家要對焦的時候第一個 超越協商不同意見的展示 也就是工房 這是民主政治ABC沒有所謂人身攻擊 假如我罵你 問你說你是什麼 那直接這個人身攻擊就不對像我問你說我是抓好頭要去養老院 那個才是人身攻擊好不好"},{"start":7224.195,"end":7232.261,"text":"但是反而不輕你罵錯了會反彈到你身上對他不好這社會只有公平論端"},{"start":7234.659,"end":7251.097,"text":"要把這個先確定今天我們才講說我們今天有時間我們都要7月16號對不對請問大家這個時間大家都訂出來我怎麼不知道當初又想到覆議案的時間其實昨晚來韓院長也考慮到這個覆議案的時間所以總共有14次的宴會"},{"start":7256.69,"end":7274.935,"text":"那駕鋼宴會總之請我們還沒講完你們大家都講完只有10次換言之還保留40空的時間我們已經用掉一次原住民進化補償要一次還有3次其實不只3次可能4到5次因為民進黨會把總之時間減半"},{"start":7278.336,"end":7299.55,"text":"這會增加時間所以這個時間 絕對沒有問題即便我們不檢辦 時間都已經有問題因為只是 一日覆議嘛 一日投票而已就是這樣而已啊其實這個都不影響 不要再 紅目的肚子又給我生了這影響到民生法案 完全不影響民生法案"},{"start":7300.59,"end":7326.957,"text":"完全沒有因為它只是兩次的時間而已我們還空了現在還空了用到一次還有三次我們院長在檢辦的時候有五次的時間民政法案一點也沒影響而且大家都知道這個遲早有覆議所以當初院長做這樣強弱的安排我當初都覺得這個都想過很多很周圍的想法這一點我是必須必須在這裡說做完以後想就想做好"},{"start":7330.987,"end":7350.119,"text":"接下來我們談就是說快計法快計法不是什麼貪污的貪污犯處罪那時候顏英標在鬼醫裁法請看那時候最嚴重的問題是什麼大學教授有的都是真的掛很多計法"},{"start":7350.999,"end":7367.293,"text":"用很多計畫報復消費的問題造成所有的人包括大學校長也有副校長大家人人事業全部用貪污之類的條例處罪罰所以這個會議應該來講讓教授教我們讓文職協同社會重新來"},{"start":7368.991,"end":7393.053,"text":"我在2015回去新湖選舉的時候出一本大局承擔那時候柯恩哲幫我寫戲就各黨黨主席幫我寫戲他怎麼講歷史中有防我清白當初是為了這些大學教授的問題後來就要懷疑刑警只有統一解釋才出這話因為好像市民一直要抓這些大學教授"},{"start":7394.793,"end":7406.058,"text":"大家有的憂鬱症也要跳樓全國所有的行事界奉贈賀禮就是為了檢討這個東西演藝音標一直在開我們老教育管理"},{"start":7407.113,"end":7424.286,"text":"原來沒有關的話不會處理這個事宜經過是這樣的所以那時候我才第一次聽到有一個叫黃國昌的名字出來打我什麼病逝協商以後立法院不能病逝協商以後要"},{"start":7426.508,"end":7451.368,"text":"要來辯論 都是不要協商 直接辯論他發展出這個理論 今天我們不是在這裡協商嗎 而且直播的這是2016年的時候民進黨黨團改直播的我相信你那時候已經進人意外了所以我告訴你 不能每個人都各當猜測只要說起你的作秀 不能說歌而已嘛這個全國人民看得很清楚啊 你想每個人看得很清楚"},{"start":7452.429,"end":7467.45,"text":"在這裏我再告訴你你會看柯文哲幫我寫一句歷史中的方向那時候楊瓣石一大隊前一國修大學教授一堆對外解套那個事情所以那時候覆議的時候各黨一人發言"},{"start":7469.173,"end":7496.754,"text":"施文昌去看馬英九就是這樣的我們的目的是那個那時候王一彬林彥總主席協商我們黨團是最後一個簽名的那臺聯的林世嘉因為有慢職只能掛四餘多的計畫那怎麼解套所以柯文哲那時候被調下去找去只有十萬塊而已他說那些東西他找不到就是貪汙找的當然都是文書因為害怕那些"},{"start":7501.649,"end":7519.612,"text":"來用在研究上的錢來用10萬塊去買電腦但是這已經漏五了還要幾張桌子他跟我們講叫他去找他去的時候他跟我們講說你如果沒錢沒錢就變糖果錢就變偉大文書是後來全部主席都要清楚"},{"start":7524.594,"end":7536.992,"text":"2013年5月31號那天將近12點的時候過去法是這樣的通過我第一個打給誰?打給柯文哲請問你去問你黨主席你不要再來抹黑這一套的"},{"start":7539.639,"end":7557.769,"text":"我們在講這個時間的問題啦大家明眼人都看清楚 看得到嘛我們就是要趕快稍微拖延嘛 啊你們主席有沒有辦法打中你們做現在委員黨主席的意思就是要社會去溝通 冷靜來看待我們給立法院冷靜的時間"},{"start":7559.29,"end":7573.161,"text":"所以你們的意思我看得很清楚想問拜會就結條嘛那中午沒有做程序現在改下禮拜到第二風案那一天裡面把它結束掉這個都不對的我認為都不對"},{"start":7577.464,"end":7602.557,"text":"橫竖只有兩間要讓大家多多討論你剛才說是不是可以十幾個人來討論來參加討論時間讓人數多一點我在這裏做積極建議啦25號以前啊處理就可以啦我們來請問委員會多開幾次都沒有關係就給很多人去問這個沒有違法啦這是朝野鄉同意就可以"},{"start":7603.497,"end":7613.665,"text":"大家要問都可以問 問一百也沒關係在結論20號以前一定要投票 也附在這裏我剛才講說民進黨會占領主義台會破壞 大家不要排隊"},{"start":7622.432,"end":7640.141,"text":"沒有好事 都叫我們大家去參考相關結論這是開玩笑嘛 已經講得很清楚了民進黨不可能去破壞這個東西你剛才不是講說大家要參考相關結論要簽這個不要排隊 不要佔領主義台 免得大家排隊等等這個是污衊自己"},{"start":7644.171,"end":7667.209,"text":"今天要表決是表決我們是認為覆議案有可能我們會成功當然我們盡量說服沒有成功我們就釋憲所以不存在所謂洪文凱常常講頂到位民進黨不要再贊成主義黨這些洪文凱甚至剛才講說要先朝野黨簽名不贊成主義黨這個你們自己去簽就好了"},{"start":7668.01,"end":7695.982,"text":"站主力臺這次到現在就是你們站你們站了10天你都忘記了你排隊都是你們排隊的這個很清楚所以我記一談話司馬昭之心不是日本爵士全國爵士啦你們在這裡發言全部是螃蟹魚漆啦全部傳統好的來的院長你也不要去跟他牽著鼻子走你要後來歷史高的一個中立角色"},{"start":7697.628,"end":7723.911,"text":"我們黨團繼續主張我是覺得你們這個都我們沒有辦法接受你們要趕快把它處理掉所以一個執行另外一個上午交代總執行總之你沒有影響到絕對不會影響到總之你放心你們的意見就趕快蓋牌嘛讓外面不要討厭嘛正邏輯就是什麼就是棄兵繳兒逃"},{"start":7725.799,"end":7745.127,"text":"未戰先敗你們不肯面對民意嘛黃中昌你不是說要在電視去辯論你們人在這裡發言就不敢政府從說法就欺負人家的頭未戰先敗的說法然後自己在卑躬誰贏我的講話就是如此那自己的建議"},{"start":7746.908,"end":7765.827,"text":"到25號以前,你現在要排,禮拜五的FA報告事項,執行人還是要朝野生同意因為你前面哪一個都沒有同意,這個我們都可以來談但是沒有所謂的快速打包起來,談就開,我有事"},{"start":7767.168,"end":7783.267,"text":"我就覺得大家都說要好好談你剛才還說6個20個都可以協議委員會都排幾次最晚到24號以前要投票即便不用的話也要多時間再來談"},{"start":7784.988,"end":7803.223,"text":"不可能是25號當天不能超過24號也可以當年就是這樣才有覆議案就在前天第13天完成其實第15號也可以我們不必弄這麼近大家跟他說去說服你的選民你講你的理念你講說為什麼這個沒有違憲沒有關係你這句說分析就好說分析說這絕對沒違憲我也不是大好官"},{"start":7814.672,"end":7816.573,"text":"違憲與否就請大法關於事宜．．．．．．"},{"start":7833.493,"end":7847.298,"text":"你適合投票嗎?你適合不要說阿在這幹嗎?你前面有人開三四三五,我都,你從頭贊成好好的讓老百姓講,知道各黨的理念是什麼因為很有把握去說服"},{"start":7848.615,"end":7867.114,"text":"你們有青鳥你們有藍鳥你們有什麼藍鳥我們自己來說服就好了我們自己來做一宗理論戰讓所有全國老百姓都會看到這個是一個民主交易非常重要的一刻讓大家去看民意在什麼地方這樣是對的"},{"start":7871.789,"end":7877.314,"text":"正式面對嘛你很有把握我們沒有違憲沒有關係你們去講我怎麼說違憲啊你怎麼說違憲我們可以說你講啊"},{"start":7883.571,"end":7904.412,"text":"大家以後就是當大法官這個時間這個例子刻意交給大法官但是請勇敢講出來你們沒有違憲理由好好去多講幾次讓所有你們的支持者能夠幸福事業影響到我們的支持者支持你也沒有關係民意決定一切最後投票大家對例子負責"},{"start":7907.063,"end":7927.61,"text":"謝謝柯建民總長您的意思是說那個全院委員會多開一點時間那我現在容納三黨我了解我現在嘗試性做一個結論那大家如果覺得不妥可以修正決定事項只有兩點第一點各黨團同意在6月19號星期三以及"},{"start":7928.45,"end":7952.145,"text":"科建民主黨講的我們再加一天20號星期四召開全院委員會審查行政院所提對立法院職權行使法部分條文以及中華民國憲法增訂第5章之1章名及第141條之1條文之覆議案審查時邀請行政院院長列席說明"},{"start":7953.635,"end":7959.022,"text":"各自分別由國民黨團推派11位民進黨團推派11位臺灣民眾黨團推派2位每位委員尋答時間為10分鐘尋答的順序依例授權議事處辦理"},{"start":7973.905,"end":7994.349,"text":"名單我們就於6月18號星期二上午中午12點以前交議事處彙整預期勢同放棄這是第一個重點結論大家看一看要不要修正第二上述覆議案於6月21號星期五上午報告事項處理完畢進行記名投票表決兩案分別為兩張票"},{"start":8000.595,"end":8023.026,"text":"同時投票．並由各黨團推派一人．擔任投開票監察員．其餘相關投票事務工作．依例授權議事處辦理．當日會議．不進行施政方針報告諮詢這兩點我們就把時間．綜合大家我們做的一些"},{"start":8024.406,"end":8029.749,"text":"融合大家的意見融會貫通就是兩點第一個重複很簡單6月19號6月20號我們召開全員聯議會第二6月21號投票請問各位黨團的好"},{"start":8040.915,"end":8041.895,"text":"蔡偉強都是院長先簽"},{"start":8071.035,"end":8071.635,"text":"請國民黨團及民眾黨團仔細看"},{"start":8094.81,"end":8096.571,"text":"所以加開兩天嗎?四部違憲"},{"start":8122.193,"end":8122.633,"text":"請這裡留一塊給市民簽"},{"start":8151.134,"end":8172.645,"text":"請在他們上面那個今天下午趙鋼琳是你表妹主持趙鋼琳請假"},{"start":8181.618,"end":8184.869,"text":"欸 那個 那個國昌 你們簽了嗎 你們簽了嗎齁"},{"start":8222.591,"end":8230.999,"text":"這個結論沒有問題我們同意我只有一個技術性的問題我們在開全院委員會的時候其他的委員會是繼續進行還是會停開這個先講清楚比較好"},{"start":8235.916,"end":8249.023,"text":"因為這一個狀況在以前一般全院委員審查委員是不開的但是我知道現在這兩屆裡面是有委員會也在開有這個例在以前是比較嚴謹但我知道這兩屆是不是到官員 到議事規則是"},{"start":8257.927,"end":8269.65,"text":"你知道周律師長的書是停開的啦有的不守規文證但是我們民進黨從來不會破壞規矩的有親友們都停開了我們可以去排啦"},{"start":8278.643,"end":8279.704,"text":"很感謝大家能夠有一個非常好的結論"}]}},{"id":"16010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16010","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc507799957011912f90a0be61fea1481819186e52af124432acc84cd2b45aa0f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-13T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T18:13:00+08:00","duration":34950,"影片長度":"09:42:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 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大家早安關心"},{"start":2072.745,"end":2093.563,"text":"台灣的各位好朋友大家好。警察、軍人、警消、在軍公告裡面、當機時、改革那一項。我們國的中武省大概是兩條。那麼到現在中武省最終只有兩條被侵入。"},{"start":2103.436,"end":2110.081,"text":"在改革的過程中說最好來打殺車的就是軍人因為他嫁娼、高風險所以把他威脅下來那麼這個警察警校站在第一線用死命保護台灣人的死命財產安全因由完畢勤的中間也是理事休息在台北"},{"start":2132.54,"end":2137.001,"text":"一）委員一份登記、握力及深烈努力的付出。但是,求國家用著無情的制度來幫助他們登記時,磨心烈血來保好國家的感情,情何以堪。每當高級警校、警察被我們打死、浪費"},{"start":2162.108,"end":2167.049,"text":"二）委員今天講這個,我可以跟你說抱歉嗎?不解決什麼問題?這種心態不是參與公眾事務,也不是一個政府應該有的態度。尤其,警察人員、鄉民和專屬部,清洗的時候,專屬部也沒有說反對。"},{"start":2192.568,"end":2195.671,"text":"他講到每一年可能會增加二十五億那麼在二十年到二十九年可能會增加四十五億在三十年之後每一年會增加六十億我剛才講過每一年我們的政府會增加八千億你不可以一年拿六十億來照顧這個一四人為台灣奉獻撇平的人"},{"start":2222.654,"end":2223.975,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．併案．事由．併案．事由．併案．"},{"start":2252.435,"end":2254.736,"text":"三草案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2280.052,"end":2285.201,"text":"我們現在先請下一位提案人丁學忠委員提案"},{"start":2296.024,"end":2321.26,"text":"主席各位委員大家好分析所提的警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案所提案說明有建立警察人員特殊的勤務與一般公務人員有很大不同實在不適應用同樣的退休金制度警察消防人員的工作具有高危險性與高壓力"},{"start":2322.301,"end":2349.464,"text":"根據一項統計數字,106年至111年間因公殉職人員就有47人,消防人員也在十年內殉職三十幾位同仁。另外,可以發現警消人員退休後,平均受孕比一般人平均更低。這些不幸的數字都代表他們應該獲得國家更好、更合理的退休照顧。"},{"start":2350.285,"end":2377.834,"text":"另外,總和這些原因,警察人員的工作性質明顯與國軍更為接近,所以提出退休金制度應比照國軍退休條例,故予文法修訂警察人員退休所得替代率。年資滿15年者所得替代率至45%期,每一年增加所得替代率增加2%,"},{"start":2379.875,"end":2390.709,"text":"最高因百分之九十五為上限以上報告謝謝好謝謝那下面我們請提案人游浩委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2408.447,"end":2417.856,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":2432.068,"end":2458.914,"text":"通常影響到他們的身心健康這些特性也使得他們工作危險性其實不亞於一般的公務人員甚至更高可能這些情況修正相關法令來提供適當的保障其實對於他們來講非常重要目前我國現行法令對於警察消防海巡移民等人員的退休所的替代率與國軍相比時還發現確實立即需要相對應的一個修正來提供更公平的一個保障"},{"start":2459.574,"end":2468.31,"text":"所以這些人員的貢獻跟承受的風險應該要得到公平以及應有的尊重跟回饋來保障他們退休後的一個生活保障。"},{"start":2469.83,"end":2496.486,"text":"所以對此還有這些特殊性質的公務人員我們應該重新評估其所得替代率還有確保他們在工作退休之後能夠得到合理的照顧及支持這些調整有助於提高公務人員的工作動力及生活品質同時也對他們的辛勞的工作是一種公平跟肯定跟尊重所以本席提出的警察人員人事條例第三十五條修正草案就是為了好好照顧辛苦奉獻無失的公務人員謝謝"},{"start":2499.541,"end":2502.783,"text":"主席各位委員先請大家找內政部奉邀列席貴委員會就委員擬具警察人員人事條例第35條修正草案"},{"start":2528.291,"end":2539.284,"text":"本12案報告並備詢,請提供本部意見如下,進行指教。首先,本部對於有關委員擬具本條例之修正案,"},{"start":2540.325,"end":2558.671,"text":"查退伏法第37條、38條以及附表三所明定的公務人員所得退休所得替代率。大院委員提案增訂內容與前開退伏法的規定有所判隔,而且涉及考試院的限定職長。"},{"start":2560.111,"end":2582.264,"text":"那麼按照選舉部109年8月17號含本條例另訂退伏事項的意見略以修訂本條例的經費籌措涉及該部以及行政院人事總署、主計總署、公務人員、退休輔具基金管理局以及各地方政府"},{"start":2584.261,"end":2604.857,"text":"消防海巡機關等權責,因此影響的層面相當廣泛,而且考慮整體退府給予平衡的情形,所以本案必須協調取得相關機關的共識,並依規定來呈報行政院,含請考試院同意會嫌之後,才能再送大院審議。"},{"start":2606.098,"end":2621.039,"text":"那麼又今檢視本大院委員擬具本條例修正草案內容目前還沒有並同112年7月1號起適用公務人員個人專戶制的這個退休之前撫恤辦法"},{"start":2621.98,"end":2641.694,"text":"那麼這些警察人員我們的同仁納入這個規範那公務員退休金的計算的內涵這個最後必須由全序部來審定這個所謂的本薪跟改採平均本奉的現況來納入同條第一條第一項第二款以及第二項聯資退休金的差額計算方式因此這個"},{"start":2643.695,"end":2653.883,"text":"最後依照本條例第三條的規定,就是本條例所稱的警察人員,那細指本條例任官受接執行警察任務之人員。」"},{"start":2668.259,"end":2681.751,"text":"因為移民、空勤跟航策等機關限職員並非本條例所稱的警察人員所以並不適用本條例相關規定那希望他這個退休事項不宜納入本條例規範那以上報告謝謝委員"},{"start":2686.486,"end":2696.232,"text":"我們先請王洪威委員做提案說明接下來我們下一位再請全序部張次長報告"},{"start":2703.971,"end":2732.637,"text":"好謝謝主席以及我們各位委員還有在場的各位官員那今天主要的討論的問題題目是非常非常重要的那大家都知道事實上呢在我們的整個的公務系統裡面包含我們的警消海巡人員其實他們過去因為因公殉子死亡及傷殘的人數事實上他在各類的公務人員裡面他比例的占比都是非常高的"},{"start":2733.177,"end":2735.058,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":2754.671,"end":2779.37,"text":"事實上還要把寶二變成所謂的第二陸軍把海巡要把它變成所謂的第二海軍所以也就是我們的警消以及我們的海巡人員他們在他們的工作以及執勤上的危險性已經絕對不下於我們的國軍弟兄"},{"start":2780.231,"end":2800.728,"text":"但是如果對於他們的退休制度卻出現了變成是一個次等公民對於我們警察消防海巡人員事實上是非常非常的不公平的那麼我們所以在希望在透過這一次的修法"},{"start":2801.288,"end":2802.489,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":2820.117,"end":2844.132,"text":"那當然我剛才也有聽到我們應該是內政部他所提到的也就是過去呢在警察的範圍裡面必不包含我們的像是海巡人員或者移民署但是我們在這邊要特別的提到比如說像我們的移民署的這個官員事實上他們過去就是從警察分出來的"},{"start":2845.552,"end":2866.318,"text":"你看現在很多的移民署退休的官員他們事實上過去也是警察只是因為我們的組織的編制的改變然後被分出來之後他又要從警察分出去所以我們現在變成一個國家不是一國兩制喔"},{"start":2866.838,"end":2870.519,"text":"條文修正三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制及法律條例修正三草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法律條例修正三草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法律條例"},{"start":2887.345,"end":2897.288,"text":"還有包含這個我們的內政部的空中勤務總隊的這些的弟兄這些同仁也能夠納入一併的跟他們保障我真覺得就是我們國家社會對於執行這些同樣危險同樣重要的人物我們應該一視同仁而不應該把他們去一直區分最後會出現了"},{"start":2914.993,"end":2922.999,"text":"四等公民三等公民這不是我們一個國家社會應該給予這些弟兄的對待以上謝謝好謝謝那我們接下來請全區部張次長報告"},{"start":2940.427,"end":2962.193,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早首先向臨時委員會各位委員對本部業務推動上的支持跟策略在這裡表示我們最大的感謝我們非常的肯定警察同仁的貢獻跟辛勞但是本來因為涉及本部主管的工人的退服法制由於提案的內容會損及"},{"start":2963.533,"end":2988.572,"text":"特輔制度設計的基礎原理跟長久的運作精神所以本部基於以下的理由敬請聯席委員會維持現行的制度首先提案的內容會撼動對待所有適用這個制度的人權利義務都應該要對等公平的核心原則我們現在的制度就是繳費的義務跟給付的義務其實是對等的"},{"start":2993.362,"end":3016.402,"text":"也就是說在大家都不再承擔工作的狀態之下同等級的人會領一樣的退休金不會因為你在職的時候你是高薪的醫師或者是警察還是一般官員而有所不同那在前段的繳費設計上也是一樣大家都是用本分的兩倍來做標準做提撥那如果是"},{"start":3018.484,"end":3020.205,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":3044.793,"end":3048.034,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":3074.737,"end":3080.119,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":3099.923,"end":3100.123,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":3119.796,"end":3144.128,"text":"另外在退休降臨的部分他也可以提早10年可以領月退休金另外執勤中的殉職是比較佔地殉職因公傷亡未免金的標準是不可以低於公園的兩倍那現在公園現在是一千萬元最高那警察修正以後會達到兩千萬元這是最高的所以在現職的危老的照顧上面我想政府也做了很多努力"},{"start":3144.648,"end":3146.009,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":3165.024,"end":3167.206,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":3181.476,"end":3184.339,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議"},{"start":3207.587,"end":3209.368,"text":"特殊基金約15億元以上,預估10年至少超過150億元。另外,"},{"start":3217.486,"end":3217.886,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":3244.158,"end":3245.88,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．一）委員"},{"start":3262.02,"end":3278.688,"text":"有更好的效率讓退伍基金可以做永續的經營。另外警察工作跟軍職的工作跟公務員的工作其實不能講他完全相同因為警察是全天候的他是都要載營"},{"start":3279.668,"end":3280.869,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":3306.774,"end":3313.62,"text":"人員人事條例第三條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":3319.269,"end":3343.777,"text":"也是產生另外一個不公平的現象那現在的調整其實在制度上已經有規劃在推法六七條就碰到這個消費者物價指數達到政府百分之五或者是每四年這有兩個機制那年改後也靠這兩個機制已經調整過兩次現在總共調整了百分之六那目前這個是一個比較合理的做法以上跟各位報告謝謝"},{"start":3347.928,"end":3350.318,"text":"我們接下來請人事總處理副人事長報告"},{"start":3360.972,"end":3379.962,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家早安。今天大院第11屆第1會期的司法法制及內政委員會的聯席會議（併案來審查蘇清泉等委員27人的擬具警察人員人事條例修正三十五條文及附表三草案一共有12案。"},{"start":3380.584,"end":3395.104,"text":"總署榮幸獲邀列席．今天．併案審查提案除了案由7應修正法制體力以及案由9修正法例名稱．例如把工人退休法修正為工人退休資遣撫恤法"},{"start":3395.604,"end":3404.171,"text":"三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條文修正三十五條條"},{"start":3412.037,"end":3431.427,"text":"我們警察人事條例的適用對象按照第三條跟三十九條之一的規定是依本條例任官受接執行警察任務的人員以及海岸巡防機關、消防機關類警察官人員並沒有包括部分委員提案裡面所提的移民、空警跟航空測量機關人員"},{"start":3432.83,"end":3454.006,"text":"第二如果修正第三十五條因為三十五條規定警察人員的退休除了特別規定比如說退休的年齡、退休金的基數之外是用我們的退伏法那麼這個退伏法所定的所得替代率跟定期給予的調整機制是全體一起統一適用不因職務的特性而有所區別"},{"start":3454.766,"end":3472.64,"text":"委員提案恐怕會引起其他適用退休法對象的嚴謹比照,比如說還有其他的危老人員也要嚴謹比照。第三個因素考量提高退休所得替代率,追溯重新計算以退休人員的退休所得。"},{"start":3474.481,"end":3492.222,"text":"這個可能會增加一定會增加退休退伏基金跟政府的財政的負擔那公務員的退伏法67條已經明定定期退伏給予的調整機制然後又考量軍公教這個聯軍有已經有監控機制又完成了首次的檢討報告"},{"start":3493.263,"end":3493.423,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":3508.661,"end":3532.222,"text":"根據委員的提案都涉及到聯金改革目標的措施的調整影響層面非常的廣所以我們認為應該就聯金改革的政策目標退伍基金政府財政的負擔情形以及其他人員的原理比照效應還有警察人事條例適用對象的妥適性等等來做通盤的審慎的考量以上報告敬請委員指教"},{"start":3534.552,"end":3541.287,"text":"謝謝副人事長機關報告機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄"},{"start":3544.347,"end":3562.233,"text":"提案說明跟機關報告都已經進行完畢,現在開始進行詢答因為今天是司法法制跟內政兩委員會的聯席,發言人數也較多所以我們依循過去的往例,本聯席會委員詢答時間為6分鐘"},{"start":3564.894,"end":3576.199,"text":"非本聯席會委員尋答時間為3分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位張宏祿委員發言"},{"start":3590.766,"end":3598.521,"text":"我請內政部次長,然後還有警政署長,然後海巡署署長"},{"start":3606.329,"end":3626.621,"text":"市長、各位署長,其實大家說要照顧警察弟兄什麼,我相信大家都是樂觀,大家都想要樂觀其成不過在這裡我必須先有幾個法律上的問題來探討一下首先我先請問海巡署"},{"start":3629.246,"end":3653.374,"text":"我們海巡署的組成是不是有軍人、警察跟特考三種身份的人還有官務對但我們裡面的退休金的計算那有可能有的人是適用陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例也有人是公務人員退休之前服劇法法退服法對不對"},{"start":3655.506,"end":3679.514,"text":"他們用這樣他們工作上是有很明顯的差異嗎還是說一開始考進海巡的身份就不同跟委員報告我們現在海巡署有四種身份的人各用各自的人事法令所以他們當他們進到海巡署這個體系來他們就知道他們適用哪些公務人員的任用條例那他們的每天的工作性質有很大的不同嗎"},{"start":3680.782,"end":3693.52,"text":"不會就是他該負什麼責任該什麼工作的話就那另外像艦隊分署的工作他是比較辛苦的部分那艦隊分署就全部都是警察人員"},{"start":3695.451,"end":3711.81,"text":"對嗎?其實在同樣一個海巡署裡面你看有這不同樣的人那你想想看那他們雖然你所說的一進去大家都知道自己身分不同但是每天工作的內容其實也大同小異差不了多少吧"},{"start":3713.09,"end":3728.508,"text":"看他負的責任那這邊跟委員報我們海巡署的工作其實他是有區分兩塊一個是在君子的部分一個部分是在海上部分那海上部分他主要負責的是我們海域的安全維護"},{"start":3729.409,"end":3748.929,"text":"包括我們應對中國大陸不理性的這些軍演的部分都是由鑑定分子來做所以他的工作內容是性質不同的我剛剛提的是說他們進來以後他們是適用各自的人事法律那工作項目是配合機關的屬性來做不同的調整跟賦予任務"},{"start":3750.895,"end":3775.059,"text":"那我想請問一下齁那我們今天審查的條例啊齁我們是最基本的是對警察做規定那將其他的海防或海巡兄弟等一起納入這樣子你覺得跟現行的體制會有什麼衝突嗎如果要把他們的計算都要納入我們樂觀其成蛤"},{"start":3780.206,"end":3795.01,"text":"我問你啊對不起我不太了解委員的意思我說今天如果是這樣把他全部一體適用對不對那你樂觀其成那你要怎麼去做其他的法要不要修要不要修"},{"start":3805.587,"end":3825.254,"text":"檢視法令的...你如果不懂你就說你不懂阿不用在這邊浪費我的時間阿是蛤?你懂不懂?因為每一個人的...其他的法要不要修啦?當然要阿阿對啊阿你剛剛停頓那麼久你在浪費我的時間在幹什麼?對不對?你不要...我在質詢阿你還浪費我的時間對不對?來次長"},{"start":3831.243,"end":3850.048,"text":"你覺得勒?跟委員報告我們贊成維持限制主要的原因就是說因為整個退伏制度第一個內政部其實不是主管的機關但是我們在照顧警消同仁這一塊我們是樹葉緋瀉每天都在為我們警消同仁的權益在努力"},{"start":3850.808,"end":3875.208,"text":"所以我們平時對於現職的警消同仁事實上我們已經有從105年每一年我們都有一些新的做法也就對現職同仁的照顧我們一直在增加那麼對於退休同仁的照顧我們就按照全序部的規定來進行那這個部分我們認為在目前的一個推動上是合一而且是可以的謝謝沒有錯啊我剛剛一開始也說要照顧這大家都支持啊"},{"start":3876.008,"end":3901.595,"text":"對大家啊但是如果今天我剛剛是就法令在在講嗎啊如果這樣你其他的法律是要修你才能夠去處理這個問題啊對不對報告委員對沒錯嘛吼對嘛所以你今天如果只單就這個就掛一落萬了嘛我就舉一個海巡迴力嘛裡面有這麼多啊裡面的工作性質又是差不多雖然有一些特殊的有一些吼對不對但我同樣我都是海巡署欸"},{"start":3902.864,"end":3920.721,"text":"如果這樣子的話,次長你會不會擔心這個士氣會低落?報告委員海巡署是海委會的單位。我知道啦,同樣的,但你覺得呢?你也是內政部,你是次長啊,你覺得你會不會擔心人家這樣會不會低落?"},{"start":3921.742,"end":3934.979,"text":"報尾因為如果說以這個海委會目前在海巡署有軍職人員在內的話那軍職人員本身他的一個適用的範圍跟警職人員不一樣所以說我們按照這個條例修正的話那海巡署裡面的這個軍職人員大會無所適從"},{"start":3937.293,"end":3953.973,"text":"我覺得啦這個問題不是只有海巡啦會有很多的這種單位啊都會有這個問題啦那我們今天雖然是審這個警察這個是內政部主管但同樣的問題會有造成很多的單位造成這樣的困擾"},{"start":3954.754,"end":3972.288,"text":"這其實是我們很應該要去看的啦尤其啊如果依照公務人員退府條例啊退府法67條規定啊如果超過5%的條長要另案送立法院審議欸這個我覺得啊大家也都要思考一下啦謝謝委員好謝謝那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":3996.906,"end":4024.085,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請馬次長跟我們的張署長好 次長署長早我們今天要審議的是這個警察人員的人事條例的相關修正條文那警察是我們整個社會安定還有穩定國家運作的一個力量更是我們整體治安的一個守護者"},{"start":4026.721,"end":4048.793,"text":"因為工作的這個危險性執勤時常發生許多的這個傷亡那他這個危險性也相對的提高了當然重視警察人員的權益也是部分黨派都認同的一個共識那今天想先對於目前警察的安全還有福利措施來和我們這個次長跟署長來做一個討論"},{"start":4050.194,"end":4072.991,"text":"那我們看到行政院合訂的這個深夜危老津貼從這個月開始正式要上路那所涵蓋的一個範圍是警察、消防、移民、空勤等事類的人員要給予深夜執勤的補貼但對於基層認為深夜在駐地內工作一樣是辛苦的是否也可以依法適用"},{"start":4074.202,"end":4083.305,"text":"給予這個實質的補貼我想請教我們次長這個對於內政部對這一個這個想法你們的立場是如何"},{"start":4084.91,"end":4104.015,"text":"報告委員我們目前零到六點的這個深夜的津貼我們是暫時先採取一個示範的一個方式來進行那未來如果說對於剛剛委員提到背景的同仁他如果有這樣的一個需要的話我們之後會再做滾動式的檢討謝謝委員那沒辦法一法適用就一開始就把它訂定下去"},{"start":4104.515,"end":4132.757,"text":"報告委員我這個部分我再說明一下那這裡面適用的這個0到6點除了就是只要在外面如果被請你有受理出去處理這個也是算算這個雖然是被請但是你有受理民眾辦案有外出這個也是算可以來做這個審例加勤那另外你如果守望的這個勤務守望的勤務你雖然是是可能在駐地裡面的這個也都可以算值班值請可以嗎"},{"start":4133.208,"end":4133.889,"text":"二）委員蔣介石等19人擬具"},{"start":4151.545,"end":4155.026,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":4175.214,"end":4202.359,"text":"而且他們的壽命減少也很明顯我們看到內政部的報告當中特別提起近年來我們積極在推動警察消防海巡移民空勤人員醫療照護的實施方案以確保第一線執行人員能夠獲得良好的健康醫療照顧同時減輕費用的負擔那我想再請教我們次長這個方案實施這幾年來是否有獲得基層意見的一個回應"},{"start":4204.346,"end":4205.027,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4219.346,"end":4243.107,"text":"那這些特約業呢我們到一百一三年的四月底為止我們受惠的就醫人數已經高達四十萬五千一百八十七人次那其中在警政署的部分就高達五十二萬九千六百七十九人次所以對我們基層的同仁來講基本上他是有非常滿意的一個效果謝謝好那我想這個醫療照顧的方案不只"},{"start":4244.248,"end":4260.627,"text":"這個利益良善也必有必要要持續來辦理但我們政府若要照顧我們的同仁相信還有許多工作條件的改善需要同步來進行包括這個輪班的制度還有人力不足等等的這些問題"},{"start":4262.22,"end":4276.62,"text":"但是我們因為政府應該要投入的這個資源更多要持續來支持的話我們希望說能夠來體恤這些犧牲奉獻我們國家照顧我們的這些同仁那另外"},{"start":4277.932,"end":4291.911,"text":"有關這個警察駐地的安全也是應該要被重視的一個部分我們看到今年三月份有貨車去衝撞分住所造成我們年輕員警的這個殉職那在這個月的月初在宜蘭的羅東"},{"start":4293.132,"end":4312.667,"text":"亦有派出所遭到民眾縱火,導致財務損失。警察機關駐地的安全與否,直接關乎到我們同仁在值班上生命安全的問題。我想請教署長對於強化駐地安全的防護,我們是否已經有了一個改進的方案?"},{"start":4314.008,"end":4333.66,"text":"全國各警察機關大概盤點出來有510個處所,所需的監衛大概7000多萬。我們自己所屬的機關有54個處所,大概有1060幾萬。在發生基隆那個案件之後,我們對於駐地的安全維護做全面的盤點。"},{"start":4334.56,"end":4361.641,"text":"包括各駐地,比如各駐地可以依照他的地形、地物、陸服可以先做防護措施的,有的各相關地方的這個檢察局就可以先做的。那如果中央,如果各地方不足的,中央我們現在盤點出來510幾個處所會來做一個補助。那像所屬的機關這94處我們在今年的10月底以前大概就能夠完成。那需要改善的處所大概就是500多?510處。"},{"start":4363.582,"end":4368.024,"text":"條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具"},{"start":4384.213,"end":4405.488,"text":"我希望說我們調整出一個最平衡的一個方案至少在明年的五月一號勞動節的時候能夠把我們的警校還有軍公教都納入來適用全國一致的放假那這之前在這個不管是委員會或是院會我都曾經諮詢過也包括當時的陳建仁這個前院長也承諾要來檢討那我想針對這個問題我們現在目前的進度到哪裡"},{"start":4409.651,"end":4435.572,"text":"明年五月一號有沒有可能能夠全國一致來放假?各位委員報告我們現在對那個紀念日及節日實施辦法現在在修正中是對那如果我們進度來得及的話我們希望明年能夠讓全國的這個勞動者都能夠享有這個五一勞動節好這我們期待拜託我們內政部跟我們相關部會的這些主管能夠積極來辦理好以上謝謝我們的次長跟我們署長"},{"start":4436.655,"end":4439.472,"text":"謝謝陳委員那下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":4455.445,"end":4468.295,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關長官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請內政部馬次長群術部張次長以及兩位警政署張署長和消防署蕭署長"},{"start":4475.758,"end":4497.769,"text":"次長好 署長好首先我先請教一下我們警政署張署長我這邊看到我們的媒體報導現在全台的警察人力吃緊單單彰化縣警局就申請退休有超過555人那你說的詐欺案的案量增加每個偵辦的員警他都至少50件破百"},{"start":4498.308,"end":4498.408,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":4520.024,"end":4544.739,"text":"基本上我們大概有三個面向去思考如果限職的警力吃緊大家想退休那可能就兩個方向一個是怎樣減少他們的工作負擔第二個限職的人提高他的待遇增加他的福利那另外一個就是他可能是不是退休的己父我們來思考一下過去我在地方任副首長的時候曾經有一段時間好幾十年前了很多老師要退休"},{"start":4545.479,"end":4570.948,"text":"為什麼因為退休後的所得替代率很高他覺得我現在工作因為這小朋友也是領這些錢不如我退下來那你認為方向上如果遇到警力吃緊你認為現在的警察警消人員的退休待遇有非常好嗎有特別好嗎有比別人好嗎有沒有根委員報告我們目前警消人員的退休待遇是跟公務人員一樣好一樣嘛齁所以是跟人家一樣好來我們現在請那個張次長來"},{"start":4574.807,"end":4576.148,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":4597.74,"end":4611.471,"text":"軍人的退休年資,退休的時候年資較短,是不是這樣?普遍來講。對,普遍是這樣。那警校人員退休年資比較長。對。那因為呢,年齡的差別,因為軍人的退休年紀限制,現年退休年齡較低,是不是這樣?對。"},{"start":4612.534,"end":4614.156,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":4631.838,"end":4632.218,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會議"},{"start":4657.882,"end":4668.85,"text":"提待率高一點他領的才會多但是呢如果以公務人員或警校來講如果他們退職的時候年資長待遇高他的提待率稍微低一點其實領的還是不比軍人少是不是這樣子"},{"start":4669.224,"end":4670.585,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":4692.762,"end":4714.512,"text":"那現在就會來了,如果說現在我們兩個選項,限職人員你要提高限職人員的安全保障還是提高他的退休人員的給付,若你可以選的話你哪個優先要辦理?對於警消來講。跟委員報告,我們一定會優先針對限職的警消人員。好,那你有什麼具體計畫來強化限職警消人員的人身安全及他的保障?"},{"start":4715.397,"end":4743.53,"text":"跟委員報告我們從105年開始我們在警方的部分總共執行了16個計畫是那這16個計畫從這個包括他的警察員的縫表的一個提高那還有就是說我們一些警察員警刑加警表的修正其實都一直有在修正你講的是待遇但是我覺得現在大家看到我們警消的一些英勇的警消他們的傷亡損失我們很心痛所以請教一下"},{"start":4745.384,"end":4761.716,"text":"警政署張署長,你有沒有穿過防彈衣?每個員警是不是都有配發?校防署校務署長,你們的校防弟兄是不是都有公發的裝備來保護自己?都已經到位了。但是我還要提醒一點,"},{"start":4762.376,"end":4791.397,"text":"其實每個人的個別差異有不一樣公發的設備無法滿足每個人差別我知道在其他國家美國他們的警校都可以自己買個人裝備因為需要強化哪裡他自己知道他也不會去買一些沒有用的東西放在身上對不對你們的弟兄有沒有自己花錢去買裝備來保護自己有沒有公發裝備以外的東西因為身材的差異他可能哪裡需要補強有沒有這樣的需求你們沒有這樣的需求公家買的那有沒有人自己再強化一點"},{"start":4792.584,"end":4808.245,"text":"如果自己要強化一點應該有的應該有的消防署呢有沒有因為你們的身材差異不太一樣啊因為我們的裝備都是要國際的標準國際標準好來我要馬次長你在這方面很熟啊你知道其他國家的這樣的警消人員他們有沒有會自行購買裝備"},{"start":4809.434,"end":4809.694,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":4834.278,"end":4841.989,"text":"求救的一文曝光可是消防局長說法卻不一樣現在居然要查他是洩密請教一下我們消防有督察系統嗎市長來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":4852.261,"end":4875.493,"text":"市長回問一下其實這兩個系統我知道我在地方政府服務過警察的督察系統很嚴密他們對於要包庇失職從上面下去查提供資料上不查是不是這樣子對但是我覺得這一次呈現一個問題我們消防的督察系統可能不夠落實回去可以好好的檢討一下可以嗎好謝謝委員接下來我們最後的一點時間再跟主席爭取一點時間現在我們來看一下"},{"start":4876.133,"end":4901.835,"text":"這是我查過的從公保、公務人退休給幾副?次長,那個全副副董事長這些是退休之後才有領的嘛,對不對?對好,但是現職人員他如果應勇救災而因公而殉職,來請問次長那是不是只有底下的這些辦法可以領?對好,那請教一下齁,那麼如果我們現在講的是現職人員保障是不是從底下的這些辦法來強化?那是全序部的業務嗎?"},{"start":4905.715,"end":4925.74,"text":"這個應該說齁底下的這些現職人員因公撫恤的公務人員的部分是全軍部的那有一部分是在是內政部自己的好馬市長來現在是這樣齁我們來看一下你管的好我們在這次警察再往下看看消防消防也是一樣其實現職人員因公而殉職他這些撫恤呢是一次性的嗎"},{"start":4927.455,"end":4952.809,"text":"是一次性的?一次性好來兩位署長我過去在地方服務啦齁以前如果我們的員警警察因公殉職啊我們都會在機關裡面給予一些什麼工友啦或一些服務的餘貧物資給他們的遺孀啊是不是這樣子因為他需要的是常態性的保障嘛是好但是我們這些退府呢都沒有都是一次性的有沒有說給遺族年金給負責方式領取的警察有沒有"},{"start":4954.489,"end":4971.327,"text":"這可以選擇可以選擇可以選擇消防有沒有也是有來次長來我現在就是說其實目前的制度上給予現職的警消人員的確有遺族他如果因公許他遺族有年金式的照顧方式但是一警一消有沒有"},{"start":4973.141,"end":4973.602,"text":"警察人員人事條例"},{"start":4997.625,"end":5011.437,"text":"都可以用年薪的方式來處理。」可以考慮一下嗎?好,我們最後的結論已經站起來了。那麼請內政部評估編列預算補助警察人員購買個人裝備的可行性,一個月提出送兵報告,可以嗎?"},{"start":5012.899,"end":5013.92,"text":"二）委員蘇巧惠委員發言"},{"start":5049.704,"end":5050.085,"text":"二）委員麻煩"},{"start":5059.093,"end":5081.088,"text":"好 謝謝我先請署長先回答一下署長我剛剛聽到您在回答鐘委員的時候跟我一樣我想從這個新聞事件來先跟您做切入新聞確實是在5月6號的時候我們看到了媒體報導說這個彰化吶2700多人裡面吶爆發了今年要申請退休的要達555人27多的555這樣算起來是幾成吶"},{"start":5087.421,"end":5089.241,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":5115.427,"end":5134.84,"text":"或因年金改革所致。」來我們給你看這樣的一個那我給署長你看一下這幾年退休的這個人數署長你從彰化的這個真的有退休潮嗎你先回答我彰化真的有退休潮嗎國內國內真的有警界的退休潮嗎"},{"start":5135.899,"end":5136.62,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":5152.603,"end":5152.743,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":5171.129,"end":5195.04,"text":"所以這個要不要意願跟是不是申請其實有很大的差距所以兩個意義兩個意義就是你登記想而已但是你到實際到要退的時候沒退想的話每個人也都想要退休啊老實講我們工作一輩子就不就是為了要有退休的時候要有好的生活而政府也應該為了保障國民有好的退休生活而努力嘛這就是我們在努力的目標來你看喔現在我這邊列舉了從2015年到2021年"},{"start":5199.702,"end":5199.963,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":5215.023,"end":5215.523,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":5234.292,"end":5236.293,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具"},{"start":5249.96,"end":5278.25,"text":"報道利用網路上面什麼Dcard說有一個空軍的非官邪匿名信我寧願這個損失三百萬年薪我也一定要走人最後空軍還出來說這就是謠言嘛認知作戰嘛根本就沒有這個人所以我是覺得警察警政署看到這一類的新聞的時候其實你們也應該跟空軍一樣要能夠儘快的有正確的消息要申請我們尊重大家的退職的意願"},{"start":5279.15,"end":5292.983,"text":"但如果這個意願被加上其他的意涵導致我們的警察軍心會有這個渙散或者是有別的想法我覺得這個警戒要儘速澄清 署長你同意吧 同意 同意"},{"start":5294.665,"end":5318.197,"text":"好了那我們繼續來看啦說實在今天在討論的其實是跟我們過去的年金改革有大量的關係我們過去的年金改革不但是希望還是能夠保障退休人員的生活但是對年輕世代也是一種公平世代正義的進行所以它不是針對特定職業或個人嘛是大家每一個面向每一個職業要一起來看的"},{"start":5319.898,"end":5344.217,"text":"那我們今天單獨抽出警察的這個部分來看會不會對其他的職業有所影響我當然非常尊敬警察我也覺得應該保障警察我每次去警友會去警察的活動的時候我都告訴他們說如果任何警察有需要的部分只要能夠維護社會的秩序因為現在說實在的最忙台灣最忙的就是三種職業啦我認為是什麼台灣最忙三種職業"},{"start":5348.533,"end":5358.779,"text":"小學老師小七店員還有警察說真的真的是包山包海所以警察照顧了我們我們當然應該照顧他啊對不對要權給權要錢給錢要人給人嘛可是針對退休金退休諷等等的這個確實應該要考量到整個世代的差異還有各個職業的橫平性這也是一個不得不然歸了公平的狀況那今天啦我們直接就法條來看的話來"},{"start":5378.651,"end":5391.687,"text":"這個法條今天要修的是警察人員人事條例第三十五條所以你可不可以告訴我們現在設計的三款他是有什麼樣的意義你現在我們今天原來原條文的三款"},{"start":5397.387,"end":5419.497,"text":"所以如果依照著現行原條文的三款他其實是對於辛苦的對於在執勤中受傷的對於有功的他其實對他的退休等於是有一個差別在內以對於你過去這一輩子的工作有不同的獎賞"},{"start":5421.499,"end":5430.808,"text":"感謝肯定的意涵在內。」我可以這樣認為嗎?三十五條的原條文是有這樣的設計會讓我們的退休不是齊頭式的嘛"},{"start":5432.541,"end":5450.899,"text":"以表彰他對這個工作上面的他會是提早退休而已他會是提早退休嘛對不對好所以在這樣的狀況下老實說啦如果我們今天再加上新的條文讓所有的警察不分你在執行的狀況你過去工作的狀況是一個齊頭式的調整這符合現行條文的立法原意嗎"},{"start":5458.586,"end":5481.056,"text":"一個因為退休的手的替代力不同我覺得這題也許應該次長來回答一下次長跟委員報告三十五條的原條文和現在增加了這個的部分的話我們對於警察同仁或消防同仁在限職的部分的照顧跟因公還有這個所謂的因為特殊原因或領有勳章他必須要"},{"start":5481.636,"end":5485.139,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":5505.694,"end":5506.194,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":5523.223,"end":5548.151,"text":"我實在是覺得過去最後一張啦過去我們在對警察消防的權益其實做了非常非常多的調整這是我們對警察對消防人員最大的感謝那我們希望在這個感謝之餘整個社會的公平性和世代的正義性也懇請大家可以共同來考慮和維護畢竟國家是大家的社會是大家的謝謝"},{"start":5552.706,"end":5572.723,"text":"接下來我們請謝龍介委員詢答主席我請金正恩署長及小紅署長麻煩請兩位署長"},{"start":5580.288,"end":5584.391,"text":"二）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":5605.444,"end":5625.088,"text":"我討論這個議題實在是說我心情真正當所有條約的委員大家都想要把警察、警校、軍人、戰將、力士、給修立好、老人、農民、漁民、農莊照顧恕農、工商、貿易不惜是我們中華民國的國民嘛"},{"start":5635.802,"end":5656.765,"text":"三草案加到幾幾條大家也都是我們的兒子但是對著警察警校若出意外大家去參加公職若說到退休金就跟你說很抱歉你做輸掉的人你有什麼感想"},{"start":5659.675,"end":5687.666,"text":"報告委員我非常感謝這次委員提議來照顧警察的這個同仁的這個福利那警察的工作是真的是危險性不特定性而且是非常辛苦所以我是我的心態就是說我不管是現職的警察還是退休的警察我是覺得都要照顧"},{"start":5688.226,"end":5712.965,"text":"你講到重點嘛,不可以在這裡提案,還要再抽到變成現任的啦,跟退休的不需要要對立,這不好。我先不跟大家報告,我們台灣的鄉親,你除非頭尾都有警察,當然有一股海軍籍嘛,把你開洞什麼的,讓你走到街外我也知道,有的對警察印象很壞,所以你內部,"},{"start":5715.57,"end":5725.475,"text":"一定我們要調整一些服務壞的、態度壞的、品行壞的、我們的強力處理,這樣人家聽你的就心了。但是你如果想說這個警察,他們這樣沒名沒力喔。我們現在全台灣我們的平均生命大概要八十二歲啦。警察啊,減我們六歲至八歲。"},{"start":5744.84,"end":5746.541,"text":"草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5774.471,"end":5790.94,"text":"做不夠我擔任台南市廟房經的顧問的時候,你知不知道?這個宮廟來自十方的省份每一年都一定固定拔差不多一千萬來支持台南市消防隊為什麼?去買一些特殊的設備徽章的時候裡面有沒有沒有人知道到底徽章在哪裡?到底得到什麼機會?入去就要死了?不知道"},{"start":5804.693,"end":5812.437,"text":"所以呢．這個環境支持人來買這個紅色衣服的探證儀第三次竟然沒辦法去編這個文件你說政府照顧你們會對嗎?照顧不夠包括警察的風暖衣服、風暖衣服包括第一手的武器你以為現在很乾坤坷的台獨進來走都是衝鋒車"},{"start":5835.458,"end":5836.378,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":5865.305,"end":5870.528,"text":"三）委員我們國的武聖啊!總共兩條禮儀啊!到今天你兩條八千幾億!整個八九千億!世代有問題嗎?有!有問題!我問你這屆八千幾億有照顧到這新世代嗎?也沒有!齁!有照顧到這警察警消嗎?也沒有!只是早一段啦!"},{"start":5893.973,"end":5904.735,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．"},{"start":5924.168,"end":5924.709,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":5950.512,"end":5965.679,"text":"蘇町,我告訴你,但是我們要照顧,我們內部的組織要加強。競選也一樣,我也聽到人家的餐廳在開,人家說要消防檢查、要公安,檢查後就有人去跟他們討論,你就找到一間來做比較好,就穩定了。這你有沒有知道有這個事情?"},{"start":5980.479,"end":5980.599,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":6013.05,"end":6031.681,"text":"不是啦,內部你如果有主任啦,有擬特政委員沒人支持你啦因為不是,這坑很大坑嘛,坑兩個那邊警察借的啦,他們拚到快要死啦我坦白講,看到這個邊警守命,擬我們一般人六月至八月,我們就有夠痛心嘛"},{"start":6037.352,"end":6037.752,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":6064.045,"end":6072.17,"text":"所以我們要有良心,在這裡,不是只照顧警察、警少年,專門我們都會照顧。謝謝。好,謝謝。那下一位我們請王美惠委員發言。"},{"start":6093.157,"end":6101.903,"text":"主席,我們現在程序部正式及警政署的署長及消防署的署長。消防署長。我們程序部正式,我們先在這裡先幫你探討一個公務人員及警消及軍人在這裡面"},{"start":6122.005,"end":6127.988,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":6142.045,"end":6147.31,"text":"本席跟你說的你是如何去論定的在這裏面我覺得你認為這個95%、70%"},{"start":6154.451,"end":6168.961,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議等27人擬具"},{"start":6184.773,"end":6186.634,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":6202.895,"end":6219.142,"text":"本年的部分當然當時在做二金改革的時候就經過大家討論因為他們的性質比較實質跟大家不一樣他就是整天都要在警署裡面二十四點鐘嘛二十四點鐘他不是輪班輪校也不是我們政協的上下班"},{"start":6222.864,"end":6224.285,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具"},{"start":6239.178,"end":6240.459,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":6268.012,"end":6271.795,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案案．一）委員"},{"start":6285.544,"end":6287.805,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":6314.501,"end":6314.541,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":6335.691,"end":6337.993,"text":"我不能這樣說,因為我們政府要負責,但是...政府要負責,你還說沒辦法支援,這個年輕人做公務人員,科技這麼辛苦的,還讓他這個沒錢的時候,這樣怎麼做公家機關?"},{"start":6352.805,"end":6364.892,"text":"對,所以我現在今天是要說一個理由說希望維持現在的制度,就是我們這樣可以請出一個跟我們的退伍資金有一個好的改善的機會。我最主要就是要來問說"},{"start":6366.994,"end":6388.803,"text":"我們以前有照顧,現在要照顧現有的要靠進來,你的問題說我們沒辦法支援,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個國家的負責,要有一個"},{"start":6393.425,"end":6399.873,"text":"我要跟你說,你有聽到我們正式說的,未來若如此下落時,我們的單位也有可能年輕人會認不住。"},{"start":6406.937,"end":6426.053,"text":"二）委員胡詩君等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第3次聯席會議第4次聯席會議第5次聯席會議第6次聯席會議第7次聯席會議第8次聯席會議第9次聯席會議第10次聯席會議第11次聯席會議第12次聯席會議第13次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第15次聯席會議第16次聯席會議第17次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第19次聯席會"},{"start":6435.157,"end":6440.46,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6457.148,"end":6465.734,"text":"條文及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":6471.963,"end":6474.184,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具"},{"start":6492.87,"end":6495.992,"text":"市長,在這裏我看見早日,我們在這個企業裏面有懲處"},{"start":6504.813,"end":6516.078,"text":"十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":6534.445,"end":6539.447,"text":"台灣中華民國的國土必須保持良好以上"},{"start":6560.737,"end":6567.262,"text":"主席有請警政署、消防署、移民署、空勤總隊還有海巡署。"},{"start":6580.031,"end":6594.248,"text":"我先請教我們警政署張署長,請問你支持我們今天委員們提案來去增加我們警察退休人員的福利,你支持嗎?"},{"start":6595.154,"end":6596.834,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":6614.519,"end":6632.937,"text":"如果你站在這個本所就是要照顧同仁的基地我們還是協調其他機關、其他辦理非常謝謝署長今天站在警察同仁的立場能夠去幫大家來去爭取以及照顧大家的福利啦所以謝謝我們的署長我再請我們的消防署長我們的蕭署長"},{"start":6635.596,"end":6646.573,"text":"今天我們很多委員提案希望能夠這個改善增加我們消防人員的退休的福利請問你知不支持"},{"start":6647.248,"end":6676.97,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心消防工作人員那事實上就是包括限職跟退休人員我們一樣都要特別來關心那限職人員我們在未來的幾年憲政已經合訂23項計畫總共達到270億元的經費那對他的福利待遇過去8年已經有13項的計畫已經在執行我想對限職人員這部分來處理當然退休人員怎麼跟相關部會共同來努力這個我們會共同來努力"},{"start":6677.15,"end":6692.043,"text":"所以基本上你也是認同今天委員們的對退休的消防人員的福利的照顧嗎?消防人員跟退休人員都我們一定來重視都認同嗎?對不對?謝謝委員好那我們再想請教一下我們的移民署"},{"start":6695.526,"end":6716.239,"text":"你覺得移民署的同仁辛不辛苦啊?危不危險工作?辛苦而且危險謝謝委員那今天對於今天立法委員們提案希望能夠照顧我們移民署的退休人員的福利請問你知不支持?當然支持非常謝謝我們移民署來請我們的空勤總隊長同樣的問題你支持嗎?你支持委員們來照顧我們"},{"start":6722.833,"end":6730.744,"text":"公勤總隊的退休弟兄們的福利嗎?支持支持好謝謝我們再請我們的海巡署張署長"},{"start":6732.631,"end":6755.712,"text":"請問你支持委員們照顧我們海巡弟兄,尤其是海巡弟兄真的很辛苦啊,沒錯吧?風浪中搏鬥,然後在路上也要去做這個相關的一些巡查海防,很辛苦吧?有沒有危險性?所以你支不支持來爭取改善我們退休海巡人員的福利?"},{"start":6756.226,"end":6782.856,"text":"非常謝謝委員關心有關於海巡人員不管是在職不管是退休都要好好照顧那這個部分我們會配合那個行政院的政策然後跟其他部會協調我們積極的推動這件事情所以你認同你也支持今天提高我們海巡退休人員的待遇謝謝委員的關心好謝謝你我們發現齁我們最前線的我們今天的幾個機關齁"},{"start":6785.282,"end":6799.395,"text":"因為不管今天委員們有的提案是針對警消有提案針對海巡針對移民署、空勤總隊他們有一個共同的特性就是他們的工作都有相當的危險性"},{"start":6800.98,"end":6814.726,"text":"這相當危險性其實他的退休的一個照顧跟他的退休的福利其實也就是對他整個生涯過程當中我們提供一個應該有的一個回饋"},{"start":6815.706,"end":6845.326,"text":"同時也是構成因為任何人在選擇職外過程當中他看的也不只是在職的待遇嗎我想請我們警政署長沒錯吧也包括退休的嗎對沒錯對所以此某種程度今天在職跟退休當然都要照顧但是今天的退休今天的退休對不對就是昨天的在職啊對不對今天的在職就是明天的退休他其實嚴格來講都要照顧但是他其實是一體性的我不知道署長認不認同這件事情"},{"start":6846.587,"end":6852.673,"text":"認同對嘛好所以此在這邊哈我要特別講我就問一下我們署長你知道哈這個"},{"start":6854.451,"end":6881.128,"text":"我們有這邊有一句話好一段話警察工作非常辛苦日夜顛倒執勤時長期處在精神緊繃狀態那過去我們在警察照顧上做的不夠完整受限財政的情況不同有不同的制度跟福利這樣情況應該要改善國家要投入更多的資源來支持遠景身心的醫療照顧所以今天內政部在這裡我們請你負責這件事跟部會討論協調"},{"start":6882.529,"end":6911.248,"text":"提出照顧員警身心健康的完整計劃。」你知道這段話誰說的嗎?這段話誰說的?非常體恤我們警察同仁的。應該是我們的政府說的嘛。對,那蔡英文總統說的。對。所以換言之很明顯的我們蔡總統也知道今天站在第一線的我們的警消,我們的一些有危險勤務工作的一些同仁,他們其實負擔了很大很大的一些工作上的負擔。"},{"start":6912.068,"end":6937.633,"text":"那最近尤其大家可以看到說有些人就講說我們對於這些我們的危險勤務的政府的一些前線的人員常常今天只要出了事情大家就開始去這個就表示哀悼啊然後要去檢討啊可是常常今天攻擊明天忘記這種現象就是只是在今天出事的時候然後去想到說今天不管警察消防人員"},{"start":6938.453,"end":6963.093,"text":"但是真的到我們需要幫助的時候你就發現這些力量是不在的所以今天為什麼我們要提出這樣的一個改革的一個提案就是要讓我們今天包括我們的有危險情務的警察消防人員海巡或是空勤總隊或是移民署的同仁今天得到一個合理的待遇跟照顧最後我想請教一下我們的那個全序部來全序部"},{"start":6965.677,"end":6993.209,"text":"我看到你們的報告第9頁你就說如果說今天以警消人員來說按照我們今天的這個方案10年要增加20億元嘛對不對如果是警消的部分第9頁啊你們的報告寫的啊我們報告我們後來有補充一個資料給大家就是從第10年到第19年每年每年會增加這個"},{"start":6995.427,"end":7015.876,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條條"},{"start":7024.571,"end":7025.651,"text":"二）委員三）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":7053.527,"end":7053.727,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7069.308,"end":7088.959,"text":"兩兆八千億欸那我要跟你講重點是什麼今天你跟我講說多十億多二十億每年你要跟我講這個事情我是每年比馬政府說多一兆欸你今天電力齁能源政策正確一點核電齁早點去啟用"},{"start":7089.679,"end":7090.059,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":7109.685,"end":7133.713,"text":"其實真的你好好照顧今天我們的這些警消還有一些危險勤務的人員這是政府的責任當然你要去橫平你的財政的一個考量我可以知道你的立場有這個立場我沒有為難你但是我要回頭要講什麼事情你覺得十億負擔很大我看到每年多一兆我的負擔才大我嚇死啊"},{"start":7134.913,"end":7135.033,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7156.503,"end":7156.863,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7185.333,"end":7185.533,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7210.78,"end":7217.044,"text":"我都很尊敬他們,所有的警察會我非常地尊敬他們,我非常地尊敬他們,我非常地尊敬他們,我非常地尊敬他們,我非常地尊敬"},{"start":7228.53,"end":7228.79,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":7254.944,"end":7255.084,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7274.471,"end":7298.343,"text":"我們現在先做宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案那我們依據本會的往例依據在上午的11點處理那如果屆時有委員正在詢答那就與該位委員詢答完畢之後就進行處理臨時提案接下來由本席發言所以我們請羅委員代理主席"},{"start":7314.286,"end":7324.598,"text":"二）委員吳宗憲委員發言我們請兩位署長消防及警政署署長"},{"start":7328.564,"end":7338.589,"text":"兩位次長我覺得是正次就不用啦因為比較我大概會瞭解說正次跟常次還是有不一樣的功能性所以就不多請教先這樣"},{"start":7347.642,"end":7375.033,"text":"先跟兩位說聲道抱歉就昨天有一點對兩位有一點不高興動怒了但是但是因為昨天兩位說要請假那我覺得我在這邊先說明一下就是我不同意請假其實主要是因為今天我們討論的事情是兩位署長你底下所有的同仁以及退休的那些學長們的"},{"start":7376.624,"end":7377.044,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":7391.818,"end":7394.059,"text":"條例修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":7413.166,"end":7414.647,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":7441.986,"end":7442.126,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":7464.188,"end":7485.284,"text":"請教兩位好了因為剛剛其實有有有其他委員有跟兩位請教說請問一下你們到底支不支持我們這次多位委員所提出來的提案就是就這個年金的所得替代率我們希望修正請問兩位支持嗎對剛剛也跟有跟幾位委員報告過了就是警察的工作的性質"},{"start":7486.965,"end":7490.909,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7509.035,"end":7535.969,"text":"我先跟兩位說為什麼我這邊也覺得說這次事情一定要排上這個議程而且我覺得要對於警消或是海巡這一類的人當然將來有可能更多要對他們的這個替代率要去調整主要是因為這些人他本身就是高危險的職業並不是說像一般我們公務員的文員方面可能相對他的危險性較低所以"},{"start":7537.116,"end":7540.297,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7552.842,"end":7574.021,"text":"做這樣子的認定結果你卻沒有給他相對的尊重這一點我其實不太能夠接受我們看一下其實過去20年有28位警察殉職那最近10年有43位消防員殉職這個數字是很可怕而且每一個數字我覺得代表的是那個家庭的破碎你不能夠說等閒釋之這個問題"},{"start":7578.149,"end":7600.129,"text":"國家需要穩定的時候大家都找他們國家穩定了之後大家都忘記他們這點我真的是很難接受更何況說這段時間傷殘以遠景來說好了平均每年傷殘的人數是700到900人而且像剛剛那個蘇委員他有所提到的"},{"start":7600.709,"end":7627.113,"text":"平均年齡也比國人少掉非常多這個當然跟他們執勤的時間不固定這個都有很大關係對健康傷害是很大所以你動不動拿他來跟一般的公務員朝九晚五的公務員來比我說真的我不太能接受畢竟我以前工作的經驗我也當過一般朝九晚五的公務員我也跟警察一起出去辦案過所以我很了解這個不能夠完全相等的比擬"},{"start":7631.707,"end":7637.063,"text":"再來我們看一下這一段時間這個年金改革之後其實"},{"start":7638.888,"end":7663.186,"text":"政府總是告訴人民一個這樣我們可以省多少錢但他卻沒有告訴人民他帶來有多嚴重的副作用我們以這個數字來看警察退休的年齡在110年他的平均退休年齡已經到56.3歲等於我剛出來的時候那時候派出所都是黑頭髮年輕小夥子你現在去派出所去看一堆人都滿頭白髮那這樣子的他要怎麼樣去維持到"},{"start":7663.846,"end":7665.487,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":7686.789,"end":7705.1,"text":"因為你年改之後他們在生活上面他們的支出要縮減一樣會造成另外問題除了他們的生活品質影響之外他還有可能會造成社會上面他經濟也會減少經濟減少之後小吃店什麼他們也受損啊因為他們賺不到他們沒有生意做賺不到錢"},{"start":7705.98,"end":7727.717,"text":"國家也會有問題啊因為他抽不到稅金所以這一連串下來我只國家只告訴人民說我省了多少錢卻沒有告訴人民說這樣的副作用有多少這是我對於這國家的一些做法我其實不是很認同的地方啦更何況這段時間大家拼命的在延退那延續了剛剛羅志強委員所提到"},{"start":7728.237,"end":7729.578,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":7746.451,"end":7768.979,"text":"將來如果說要提高警消這些的退休所得的話再到第30年每年才增加60億更何況現在10到19年是增加20多億20到29年增加40多億30年之後才是每年增加60億60億在相比較於現在動不動每年幾千億的"},{"start":7771.151,"end":7798.276,"text":"這個損失我真的不知道我們為什麼不去尊重這些警消我是認為啦就是現在政府給我的感覺是裝醉人叫不行啦然後視而不見的人也很難期待他有良心發現的一天這是我對現在國家的感覺更何況現在CPI變動那麼高你拿之前的那個退休金去讓他們生活其實不是那麼容易啦所以我我一直在思考說這樣下去要怎麼辦"},{"start":7799.522,"end":7822.09,"text":"那我跟兩位署長報告一件事情我爸爸年輕的時候是警察他是警校52期畢業的所以我小時候住在警察宿舍裡面我住的那警察宿舍在桃園地院旁邊是那桃井新村全部都是一層樓的那個老建築我小時候住在這邊我的鄰居都是警察都是"},{"start":7823.03,"end":7846.677,"text":"警察局的消防隊都消防員所以我從小對於警消我就覺得是特別尊敬他們因為他們就是我們的鄰居或是我爸爸工作的地方所以我從當警察官到現在我都非常尊敬而且我都很重視這些警察或這些消防我覺得要保護他們的福利我相信署長你一定也有這種認同"},{"start":7848.379,"end":7874.82,"text":"那我覺得其實我對警察的看法是這樣我覺得國家有難齁如果今天國家財政狀況出問題我相信這些警消會共體時間但是你看這一段時間稅金還超收超收就還要發現金回去給人民然後一堆錯誤的政策那我覺得欸你們好像忘了這些警消這些人付出青春然後拿生命保護我們啊大家都忘了他們我真的覺得不應該啦齁"},{"start":7876.221,"end":7876.582,"text":"兩邊開了六十幾槍"},{"start":7891.86,"end":7894.261,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7911.428,"end":7913.871,"text":"這就是警察、消防員他們家屬的心情啦所以我很能夠理解這個感覺啦"},{"start":7929.538,"end":7951.123,"text":"合佩山部長在談到勞保的時候 他說國家撥補就是對於年金改革合佩山部長他都講過這種話 但是他是對勞工那你不能說對公務員反而就不在乎這個啦所以我再請教兩位署長 你到底知不支持我們這一次國民黨"},{"start":7952.568,"end":7954.831,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":7973.558,"end":7974.819,"text":"兩位組長你也要給我們力量你也要給現職的人"},{"start":7984.741,"end":7986.562,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":8007.339,"end":8031.876,"text":"這個社會本來就應該給軍警消海巡這些人最高的尊敬而不是像現在這個做法因為他們是拿生命在保護我們的生命所以我希望兩位署長不好意思我昨天動怒了但是我這邊跟你們說聲抱歉但是我還是覺得今天這件事情對警消還有其他人而言是非常重要的一件事那我也希望你們繼續支持我們能夠做這樣的改革謝謝兩位"},{"start":8044.111,"end":8056.19,"text":"好謝謝那我們下一位請牛許廷委員好謝謝主席警政署長消防署長有請麻煩兩位署長"},{"start":8066.789,"end":8081.867,"text":"委員早安兩位辛苦了今天大家都對兩位靈魂拷問為什麼因為大家都希望幫不管是現職的或者是退休的警消同仁爭取剛好的生活品質嘛對不對那我就"},{"start":8082.848,"end":8100.055,"text":"單刀直舞我就直接問我們這個警消人員的人事制度包含考試、教育、訓練、任用、官制、官規、福祉、配接、獎懲、考核、考期、升遷、調度等等這些的人事制度法源依據是什麼?警政署長請回答"},{"start":8100.895,"end":8121.384,"text":"警察人事條例警察人事條例來消防署長請回答我們包括一般公務員跟消防員有消防人事條例對不對還沒用警察人員管理條例也是用警察人事條例所以都是有特別法來做規範嘛對不對兩個體系的人都有它其實有不同於一般公務員體系的規範對不對好這第一個第二個那我想請問兩位署長輪流回答"},{"start":8123.605,"end":8146.517,"text":"這個警校的人事制度啊為什麼要自由體系自成體系然後有別於一般的公教人員為什麼因為他是工作的特殊性跟一般的公教人員是不一樣的舉幾個例子不管是就是在工作就是在勤務之二十小時都都不休息的而且是採輪班制的跟一般的公教人員上下班是不一樣的來消防署長你覺得勒"},{"start":8147.377,"end":8171.184,"text":"消防人員全職待命,訓練師要經過專業訓練才能具有這個資格。沒錯嘛,所以到目前為止其實已經講了非常非常多不一樣的地方,那我就繼續往下問,我們這個警消人員的勞動條件,其實剛剛其實兩位已經講的差不多了,包含工時、休息、休假、加班等等制度,有跟一般公務員制度一樣嗎?"},{"start":8171.744,"end":8171.904,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":8190.533,"end":8213.079,"text":"感謝委員我們在七八五號解釋函以後整個起舞整個大埔的降低外勤同仁的負擔所以目前這個起舞已經趨向於正常化的一個處理謝謝趨向正常化恐怕也不可能跟一般公教人員一樣啦而公教人員下班就下班了消防隊起火了就是要出勤嘛基本上簡單來說你就是有執勤備勤制度嘛而且遇到緊急狀況的時候你要召回嘛"},{"start":8213.319,"end":8214.201,"text":"行政程序法第19條"},{"start":8227.332,"end":8239.236,"text":"突然問不一定有概念沒關係我不為難你來直接秀給組長看我為什麼要寫這一條這個是不管是警察或消防阿其實都是基層同仁心中的悲觀這個是職務協助的問題沒錯行政機關為發揮共同一體行政機能與全線範圍內互相協助寫的正好職務協助互相幫忙"},{"start":8246.738,"end":8264.657,"text":"第二項行政機關執行職務時得向無隸屬關係之其他機關請求協助。我要跟兩位署長說明的是基本上警消的基層同仁就是行政程序法第19條定例之後相對來說付出最多最辛苦的基層人員。兩位署長同意嗎?"},{"start":8265.017,"end":8287.736,"text":"同意同意對不對來舉幾個例子來警察我們都哪些都哪些事情做的協定講像在防疫的期間啊我們警察還要去做這些防疫所的這個警戒啦啊或者是其他這一些這個縣市政府的這一些辦的活動要去維持他們的交通安全的勤務啦或者是或者是很多單位都"},{"start":8289.958,"end":8294.881,"text":"很多單位會接受協助關務要協助調查等等所以這些的主管機關不管是衛福部委員或是其他機關或警察機場的關務處理都會要求無隸屬關係的警政署來提供警務協助來消防有沒有幾個例子"},{"start":8307.27,"end":8323.486,"text":"感謝委員還有委員會這邊對消防的關心這幾年我們一直在檢討怎麼簡化我們消防軍的輕物包括捕蜂捉蛇很感謝捕蜂捉蛇嘛對不對我就想講捕蜂捉蛇即便您努力的想要講簡化對不對但是還是有若干的地方基於"},{"start":8324.187,"end":8338.761,"text":"沒辦法這個東西灰色地帶最有專業能力也最好的消防科請你們擔待請你們幫忙所以我們今天提這個東西的概念就是繼承警消就是行政程序法第19條裡面擔負最多責任這個也同樣不同於一般的這個公教人員再來"},{"start":8339.562,"end":8357.257,"text":"我要再問勞動安全的部分公實風險公實的責任有跟一般公務員相同嗎?不相同非常不相同對不對你看今天我問題都非常簡單對不對答案也都一樣對不對是非題全部都差對不對是否相同全部不相同為什麼不相同一樣因為時間有限我們就直接講"},{"start":8358.118,"end":8385.697,"text":"這個我先以警察為例子剛剛我還臨時加了一下消防的2017年到2023年近7年的總計我們的警察同仁不幸因公殉職了65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因為因公殉職者229人光是警察佔全體軍公教因公殉職28%消防人員殉職人員19人如果把消防人員加進去這個比例會變36.6%"},{"start":8388.358,"end":8412.366,"text":"三分之一以上。那麼2023年以警察為例人數六萬八千七百二十四人全國公允的人數三十六萬多人軍人二十一萬多人軍公教人數七十六萬多人警察的人數佔軍公教全體人數百分之八但是因公殉職比例百分之二十八加了消防這個全體人數比例大概不會超過百分之十但因公殉職的比例高達百分之三十六點六"},{"start":8413.326,"end":8427.966,"text":"所以不管是警察或者是消防同仁工作的風險職場的安全的壓力也明顯的高於一般的公務人員這樣目前講到為止應該沒有問題對不對對沒有問題沒有問題喔 署長不錯阿莎莉"},{"start":8428.885,"end":8456.45,"text":"那麼兩位署長認不認同基於不同的待遇我們常常講我們不要齊頭式平等齊頭式平等的平等是假平等假平等就是徵不公是否兩位署長是否認同藉由的人事制度體系不同於現有的公務體系同意嗎同意對你們剛剛都回答了那麼退休制度應不應該做一點合理的差別待遇來達成所謂的立足點的平等我們來努力了你們來努力消防組要不要努力一下"},{"start":8457.435,"end":8457.475,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":8476.541,"end":8491.178,"text":"時間到了我們不耽誤後面今天要審查法條我們不耽誤審查的時間我們希望我們這個社會享受警察人員帶給我們的安全和平跟穩定的生活最苦的差事都是由這一群人來做我希望這個國家社會善待這一群人不管是在職"},{"start":8491.778,"end":8497.239,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":8513.823,"end":8523.007,"text":"基於各個情務的實際上的差別來達成立足點的真平等。」這是本席的政策建議希望今天在座的大家好好思考好好討論以上謝謝"},{"start":8545.247,"end":8549.669,"text":"主席我們請全序部麻煩全序部次長市長好市長好我想這個今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是全序部因為相關的這些退府的法規都是由我們全序部來主管"},{"start":8569.673,"end":8579.22,"text":"今天一個早上我在這邊一個早上聽到這個許多的委員是真的我看講得慷慨激昂令人動容"},{"start":8580.781,"end":8605.259,"text":"但是因為今天人多時間短所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法那我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘就是把我個人對今天修法的一些問題就來請教我們把它釐清因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的沒有人不關心但是我們需要中間有一些問題要釐清首先就是說這個"},{"start":8606.42,"end":8616.592,"text":"我們目前的這些公務員跟警察這些退府的基金基本上財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則請問一下我們全序部我們這種財務規劃核心原則是什麼"},{"start":8620.063,"end":8645.628,"text":"我們的財務規劃合約就是繳費跟這個給付他的這個權利率是要對等的有些是同一個基金的人就繳同樣的錢到後面領同樣的基金因為大家都沒有工作的狀態之下那剛才很多委員在講說警察工作的為老我們要在限職的時候去支持他沒有關係這個就是說這個基金一個基金財務規劃的一個原則基本上就是我們繳一樣我們要領一樣對繳一樣領一樣"},{"start":8647.768,"end":8649.149,"text":"如果今天按照修法單獨提高警察人員所得替代率"},{"start":8669.847,"end":8690.545,"text":"那這樣子符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎會造成一個不公平就是同一個基金裡面有繳的一樣多然後有人領多有人領少那有繳一樣多有人領多有人領少的意思就是說有人我繳了這個錢但是我的這個可能未來要領的被別人領走了基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的"},{"start":8691.294,"end":8704.939,"text":"所以他就變成他其實是增加了這些人增加財務負擔跟風險增加財務負擔風險我想這部分也是大家在等一下我們主條討論的時候希望大家能夠"},{"start":8707.024,"end":8730.335,"text":"這個就是我們最難去解的問題他就是造成一個很不公平的競爭另外還有幾乎80%的製衣班公務員但是剛有一些委員很激動的講說我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多所以我們要實際來評估如果說按照就這些的修法如果我們提高警消人員所得替代率的話就未來支出我們的估算大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":8731.434,"end":8759.391,"text":"我們未來的支出就是會有兩層的衝擊就是本來可以節省就是把它回補到移住到退伍基金的大概我們預估每年至少會15億以上那如果算到10年就已經到150億以上了它是持續會再增加的那另外就是我們增加支出的部分這基金要多付出的部分我們是用1000每年退休大概1600個警察人員來估"},{"start":8761.152,"end":8761.212,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":8782.449,"end":8801.661,"text":"但是這個基金是所謂有公務人員的我知道一開始就問過所有公務人員一起的基金嘛不是警察自己不像軍人是警察開服的基金嘛以主管機關的立場很難去解這個難題對那我們剛剛講到公平的原則那今天警校這樣子那假設啦假設我們今天通過了這個法案那公務人員要求比照"},{"start":8802.711,"end":8824.77,"text":"公務員要求比照我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要求比照嘛那要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔了因為我們現在改了這麼努力整個年齡改革就回到原點了對不對恐怕不只回到原點不只回到原點所以這個衝擊會更大衝擊會比沒有改更大"},{"start":8830.57,"end":8852.466,"text":"我想這些都是我們等一下大家在希望說這個我們本委會的委員所以不是我們全區部全區部我們真的是手心手背都是肉這個大家要相信我們這個當然啦大家剛剛一直描述這個警消人員工作的這個辛勞跟危險性既危險又辛苦但是"},{"start":8853.286,"end":8880.148,"text":"如果說未來我退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣這樣子這樣就會留不住人有錯就沒有錯如果領一樣的話一般人性啦我們警察都很辛苦我退休了我就不再處在危牢的環境裡面雖然說在職的時候但是如果說領的就差不多那大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命"},{"start":8880.908,"end":8881.028,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":8907.541,"end":8922.41,"text":"只有錦霄海巡還有什麼還有其他其他很多隨便舉個例像這個医療機構的護理人員也是護理人員也是然後那個監所的管理人員也都是這些也是嘛但是還有其他的"},{"start":8923.27,"end":8948.49,"text":"其他他還沒有列到為老的人我想很多供應人會覺得自己的工作很辛苦所以一定會群起要要求要一致那這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝擊我想還有很多問題不過我時間到我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題就是說現在目前目前我們這個警政事階以下的這個跟值等相當的公務人員"},{"start":8949.611,"end":8956.201,"text":"他們的這個這個他們繳繳費繳費是相同嗎現在繳費是相同他們的這個這個目前的待遇是一樣的嗎就是相同值等"},{"start":8961.936,"end":8965.618,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":8989.972,"end":8991.995,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":9005.17,"end":9030.745,"text":"這樣可能很多一般公務員是心裡沒有辦法接受因為今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容的這些慷慨激揚的陳述甚至有人說我們目前這個同樣都在圍牢這個警察跟軍人比先是把警察當作二等公民但是如果我們今天就這樣子修法沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則那不是就把其他公務員當作三等公民嗎是這樣的概念嗎"},{"start":9032.641,"end":9060.757,"text":"所以我認為我希望說本委會在今天的這個思考我們年金改革就是這個合金邏輯如果被破壞掉以後很多都會講不通啦謝謝我們等一下希望說等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教啦謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝那11點了嘛好那我們現在先來處理臨時提案齁臨時提案共一案那我們呃宣讀後就進行處理請宣讀"},{"start":9062.168,"end":9089.329,"text":"零時提案一修正本略以原請內政部一分就警政消防體系督察部門的運作現況進行成效比較分析並就待改善部門提出精進強化方案於三個月內提供書面報告二（評估為加強限職警消人員人身安全及保障編列預算補助警消人員購買個人裝備可行性並於一個月內提出書面報告"},{"start":9090.009,"end":9114.578,"text":"三）檢討現有易警易交及易銷人身安全保險項目並研議增列因公殉職者以屬照顧年金給付方式於三個月內提出書面報告。提案人委員鍾嘉斌等宣讀完畢。好,謝謝。那臨時提案第一案,請問提案委員有補充說明?沒有。"},{"start":9117.113,"end":9133.151,"text":"那針對臨時提案請問機關有沒有其他的意見或說明就是機關這邊有沒有沒有好那如果沒有的話那我們就一好來羅委員"},{"start":9135.984,"end":9164.466,"text":"我覺得這個臨時提案我非常認同但是我覺得因為既然是內政部的部分的話那我覺得加一個修正的那個提案動議就是因為剛剛我們在答詢過程當中我發現我們的警政署以及我們的消防署其實都很支持今天我們的委員們的提案那甚至警政署也說他們會努力的針對我們的案子來跟這個其他的政府單位來協調溝通其實就主要是全序部啦"},{"start":9165.286,"end":9192.129,"text":"所以我覺得在我們這三點裡面加上第一點就請這個內政部警政署及警政署那如何跟全序部等政府溝通單位溝通今天來去優化改善我們的這個警消就按照今天我們的提案優化改善我們今天警消的那個退休的那個相關的福利待遇我就加一個那修正文字可能我整理一下我就提上去這樣子好不好"},{"start":9194.249,"end":9220.96,"text":"那個主席我是覺得兩個提案的性質有不太一樣啦是不是我們可以請羅委員另外提一個案我們都可以支持但是提案性質不同一個是就限職人員的安全保障那一個是退休人員的福利待遇好那我我覺得大家的提案互相支持但是併在一起恐怕方向上我們是要請內政部那是不是可以請羅委員你也可以提一個案子好不好"},{"start":9225.036,"end":9246.405,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具 ．立法院第1會期司法及"},{"start":9251.025,"end":9275.855,"text":"陳委員我覺得因為這個提案民進黨這個中委員這個臨時提案以後也有說到有沒有彰化警局爆出這個登記退休潮的意願嘛所以這個事實上真的如果人所的提的修正東西是合理的所以我們要把在職的跟退休都要列入考慮嘛不然看起來好像提這種案子好像是看起來中委員等都非常的支持這個我們這些警察的現行的這個"},{"start":9277.216,"end":9277.896,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":9306.518,"end":9309.168,"text":"不要這樣子講話就好那沒有一個一個來嗎那孫委員"},{"start":9312.438,"end":9341.678,"text":"我想齁這個這個從來沒有說在委員會提案一定要跟今天的主題有關啦這陳一貞委員這麼久了對不對這個這個今天相關的部會來所以就臨時提案那我覺得臨時提案在整個過程裡面大部分大家就是尊重提案的委員同意你同意或者不同意不同意的話你就不同意這個案子通過那如果如果如果這個這個同意那你提出這個完全是可以分成兩個案子的案子他不是說非得定為一個案子嘛那"},{"start":9342.458,"end":9359.525,"text":"那你可以提修正動議那你提修正動議我們就來處理如果說真的連這種臨時提案都要用表決來解決的話這個我就覺得說這個我就不知道所為何來所以我是希望說大家就"},{"start":9361.265,"end":9375.617,"text":"尊重提案委員那如果說有什麼樣的文字修正大家可以提但是這個不要在那邊說什麼你這個提案是要怎麼樣啊這個這樣講話不好啦我不知道你們內政委員會是這種風格啦"},{"start":9382.364,"end":9396.382,"text":"三 委員提到我本席所以要特別再說明一下是因為他的提案的內容說明頭有講到彰化警局爆出登記退休的意願所以有關退休我們才會說把退休的警員的照顧也一併寫在裡頭"},{"start":9397.603,"end":9397.703,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":9423.539,"end":9433.204,"text":"我休息五分鐘讓他們去洗手間然後你們溝通一下協調一下五分鐘五分鐘大家討論一下那我們先休息五分鐘大家可以去洗手間"},{"start":9443.707,"end":9466.085,"text":"三草案（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議．立法院第13次聯席會議．立法"},{"start":9470.689,"end":9496.187,"text":"二）委員蔣介石等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條"},{"start":9497.776,"end":9497.916,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":10265.879,"end":10275.368,"text":"好謝謝各位的耐心那我們現在繼續會議我們有新收臨時提案第二案那請宣讀"},{"start":10278.289,"end":10301.26,"text":"臨時提案二．針對警政署長馴達表示,針對今日提案改善警消退休人員待遇,致警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條相關內容,願與權序部等相關政府機關溝通,請警政署於一個月內提出說帖,提案人委員羅自強等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10304.6,"end":10329.922,"text":"臨時提案兩案均已宣讀完畢,現在逐案審理。先處理臨時提案第一案。請問提案委員有補充說明?沒有。好,謝謝。那針對臨時提案,請問機關有其他意見或補充?是署長請說。署長希望改成三個月。應該是指第二案,不是指第一案。第一案,第一案。"},{"start":10337.38,"end":10349.971,"text":"我們先討論第一案,謝謝署長,先討論第一案那請問就第一案的,不好意思是我的錯,我沒有講清楚請問一下就第一案的部分,機關有其他意見說明或補充?"},{"start":10357.717,"end":10385.109,"text":"二）委員蘇長請問一下就臨時提案的第一案他在第二點的時候是說一個月內提供書面報告第三點是三個月請問你剛說的三個月是指第二點還是第三點講第二案OK那沒問題好那謝謝各位那請問一下就臨時提案的第一案各位有"},{"start":10386.38,"end":10406.53,"text":"其他意見?沒有的話我們就依照修正後的文字通過。現在討論臨時提案第二案,請問提案委員有無補充說明?針對臨時提案第二案,請問機關有其他意見或說明?"},{"start":10417.856,"end":10437.007,"text":"請問就第二案修正後的文字各位委員有沒有不同意見沒有的話那臨時提案第二案就依照修正後的文字通過改為三個月好謝謝各位那我們接下來繼續詢答那我們請翁曉琳委員進行詢答"},{"start":10450.92,"end":10461.939,"text":"麻煩有請人事行政總署的李副司長麻煩請副司長還有權敘部的張次長好了"},{"start":10469.507,"end":10488.385,"text":"今天是針對有關於警消人員的退府年改要進行修正。看了人事行政總署以及全序部這邊所做的報告說明,基本上是不贊成這樣的一個修改。"},{"start":10488.925,"end":10514.214,"text":"那麼我還記得我在之前的這個執行人事總處的時候我曾經有問過處長一件事情人事總長一件事情就是軍、工、教、警消、司法人員其實這些工作型態差異很大尤其是軍、工、教這三個完全是不同的領域然後再加上警消其實本來就應該要有不同的奉給、福利和退府制度"},{"start":10514.514,"end":10516.035,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．委員"},{"start":10530.143,"end":10532.344,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10560.549,"end":10587.421,"text":"各位委員報告軍公教本來軍就是軍的體系就一套公教分圖教也自行一套那另外的公務人員部分就是自行一套所以警消就是在我們的公務人員的範圍裡面我們公務人員一般是用的普通法叫公人任用法公人任用法裡面有一條是特種人事制度就是警消這方面的警察人條例但是他身分別還是公務人員"},{"start":10588.631,"end":10611.468,"text":"這就是我們在講就是這個也是希望人事總書這邊可以與時俱進要去檢討現在公務人員任用條例裡面的相關規定明明我們就知道警消的工作的性質他其實是介於軍人跟公務員一般文職公務員之間那他的工作的特性他的勞務的性質其實是跟一般的文職的公務員是不一樣的"},{"start":10612.448,"end":10637.442,"text":"這也是為什麼今天警消人員希望能夠多爭取他們的一些福利本席基本上是支持應該要強化多保障警消人員的福利待遇以及他的退福可是就可以發現其實我們的政府的思維始終還是停留在60年前對於這種廣義公務員的思維可是現在的情形已經不一樣時代在改變"},{"start":10638.642,"end":10664.071,"text":"我覺得其實釜底抽薪的這個做法就是應該要將公教人員更細分尤其是公務人員這個部分應該要更細分那麼這個是本席希望說人事總處這邊或是全市部這裡可以好好的去檢討這個制度不曉得有沒有可能就是你們近期會提出相關的法案來進行這個檢討嗎"},{"start":10669.168,"end":10692.961,"text":"我來跟國務委員報告一下其實我們現在的制度其實就是國務委員剛剛講的國務委員期待的就是現行的制度就是這樣規劃譬如說剛剛其實有報告就是警消他的這個縫級的設計在前端的時候就跟同等級的公務員其實是不一樣的他從那個警左三階二階一階到警正四階"},{"start":10693.922,"end":10695.163,"text":"警察人員人事條例三草案案"},{"start":10716.034,"end":10717.715,"text":"三草案．立法院提出公教人員年改法案"},{"start":10744.893,"end":10747.175,"text":"二）委員余琦等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正第三"},{"start":10770.342,"end":10772.282,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":10799.975,"end":10826.538,"text":"是依照各自的這個職務的類型跟委員報告現在退幅只有三大塊一個是軍人一個是公務人員一個是教育人員那所有的公務人員就是在同一個區塊但是在海巡署裡面的屬於軍人身份的人他使用軍人嗎那是警察還是使用公務人員嗎警察跟一般公務人員就是使用公務人員"},{"start":10827.098,"end":10850.478,"text":"對對那如果說就這個部分的話確實可能我們這次修法如果通過的話要在這個針對像海巡人員這樣比較特殊的機關他的人員性質的不同我認為說其實還是要有所區別啦他們的退伏制度我的基建跟委員有點類似就像消防人員剛剛蕭署長也有講到他沒有一般公務人員不是全部都是警察人員這個區隔下去以後會一樣是消防消防人員他可能領留不一樣"},{"start":10854.301,"end":10854.761,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":10870.168,"end":10870.208,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":10900.145,"end":10900.866,"text":"二）委員林思明等19人擬具"},{"start":10917.579,"end":10935.678,"text":"市長我想有關今天要審查的警察人員人事條例三十五條條文的修正草案我想我看到的就是相關部門的整個報告都表示根據公務人員的退伏法現在不宜做任何的調整你們現在報告的意見是這樣但是我根據我的了解"},{"start":10940.723,"end":10963.716,"text":"以今年的新退的公務人員為例若是以三十五年的年資平均五百九十個縫點以及最後在職的十五年的平均薪資三個條件去計算的話那麼最後可以拿到的平均月退休金額多少?次長你知道嗎?大概多少錢?"},{"start":10966.018,"end":10972.403,"text":"最高嗎?公務人員對最高最高大概你們平均啊平均數5萬3嘛這個數字您認為足夠我們的退休工人員生活嗎?"},{"start":10978.888,"end":10983.433,"text":"五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":10997.468,"end":11025.709,"text":"將會是一般的醫療跟我們的長照的費用。那麼根據衛福部的調查65歲以上的老人平均每人每月的醫療費用是6500元是29歲以下族群的6.4倍另外依照我們民間機構的調查也指出65歲以上老人的長照需求費用平均每個月是3萬元所以"},{"start":11026.647,"end":11033.432,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":11050.865,"end":11069.076,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次"},{"start":11070.137,"end":11096.388,"text":"條文要六萬塊,所以依照您剛才講的現在的所得替代率來講一個月才五萬三根本不足夠他的一個退休後的生活的一個費用所以這個我在這邊要先問先問那個我們次長好了因為我看到今天是內政部還有這個人事總處都認為說不宜做修正"},{"start":11097.83,"end":11110.365,"text":"所以次長你認為在這種條件下如何來保障我們相關這些退警也好消防人員也好或者我們海巡人員他們在退休後生活有足夠的保障"},{"start":11112.383,"end":11117.485,"text":"二（立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":11142.593,"end":11153.26,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條條文及增訂附表三草案�"},{"start":11170.126,"end":11194.629,"text":"所以你到底如何保障我想我們今天也有提案剛才羅志強委員也有個臨題那這部分是請警政署對於未來要如何保障我們的警察人員退休的生活跟大家一起來努力跟我們權敘部一起來溝通討論這個大家一起來努力一個月內要提出說明那我也一樣期待說我想今天你也說不清楚請你也一樣跟警政署一樣"},{"start":11195.49,"end":11219.182,"text":"就是在一個月內就相關未來我們這個如何來三個月三個月三個月內提出如何來保障我們退休的警察人員消防人員以及我們這次修法的海巡人員他們的退休生活如何的跟來做保障三個月內提出書面說明謝謝委員好謝謝另外我們接下來請我們海巡署張忠榮那個署長那個署長"},{"start":11225.129,"end":11237.663,"text":"關於這個6月9號發生的鹿南開快艇直沖淡水一事啊那海委會的管秉林主委坦承他講說系統沒有失靈但人出了問題啊"},{"start":11239.81,"end":11256.937,"text":"排巡也承認相關人員誤判並表示為針對北部分署的分署長以及雷超首共十名人員分配提出申誡及記過處分。除了人員的懲處外對於內部人員的訓練管理以及執勤時的落實目前發現的問題主要的哪些層面有疏漏?"},{"start":11269.538,"end":11292.697,"text":"對,這邊特別跟委員報告,我們整個雷達徵收是在6號的時候發現然後我們足跡包括守望哨,包括安檢所都有監控但是他把這個目標當成一般進到我們河道裡面的這個淡水區域的這些漁船包括海釣船,包括民用的這些船那"},{"start":11293.558,"end":11293.838,"text":"二）委員二）委員"},{"start":11323.271,"end":11330.237,"text":"如何能夠準確落實執行我們的海防的措施?您剛才簡單的講說因為人員的誤判怎麼會出現誤判的這種情況呢?"},{"start":11335.384,"end":11347.687,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":11364.292,"end":11391.905,"text":"我想我們何時可以提出改善的措施以及當初誤判的主因你還是沒有講得很清楚這個部分我也請你在看一個禮拜之內提出相關的這個改善的措施以及這一次為什麼會誤判的原因在一個禮拜之內向本席以及我們內政委員內政還有我們的司法法制的委員提出相關的素面說明好不好以上好謝謝"},{"start":11396.136,"end":11400.087,"text":"蘇董我多說兩句如果這樣子可以那以後槍砲跟毒品都很好進來"},{"start":11401.769,"end":11402.189,"text":"二）委員黃潔委員"},{"start":11436.977,"end":11462.683,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請警政署張署長麻煩署長委員好好署長好我今天分幾個部分因為今天要審查這個警察人員人事條例那裡面最主要修正的內容就是要提高警察消防海巡人員年資滿15年所得替代率45%要提高到90或95%"},{"start":11464.844,"end":11485.783,"text":"那我想先請教一下警政署現在我們對於警察人員的福利跟保護這幾年有什麼具體的措施嗎因為我認為說其實在座所有委員都非常支持要來照顧警消那其實我過去也非常努力在幫警消爭取各式各樣的權益但是呢今天單獨修這個我認為是有一點問題的因為對的目標不應該用錯的方法"},{"start":11490.407,"end":11514.869,"text":"那先請教一下署長我們現在從2016年到現在對警校做了什麼保障我們從105年到目前為止總共的這些的相關福利措施有16項我簡單舉例來講就是第一個是警察消防海巡移民空勤的醫療照護的一個方案那都是可以普遍的去做有64家的醫院譬如說去救命告告發會"},{"start":11516.71,"end":11517.291,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":11531.949,"end":11532.989,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案案 案 。"},{"start":11554.718,"end":11556.999,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":11582.551,"end":11585.051,"text":"再來我們請全序部的張次長委員好好那我們當然是要持續的幫警消人員來爭取福利那我想要請教的是說現在因為其實我們單修這個警察人員的這個條例我認為有問題的地方是應該要全面來看待對嗎"},{"start":11609.162,"end":11636.844,"text":"對要全面的看待因為同一個基金大概用同樣的標準繳費就領同樣的這個退休給付好這其實剛剛次長在回應其他委員講得非常清楚了為什麼我說不能單看警察是因為大家用同樣一個基金如果我們現在只修了警察是不是會排擠到其他的公務員這是我最擔心的要調整可以大家共同來討論嘛因為年金制度是一個非常龐大要全面一起來看待的事情喔"},{"start":11637.384,"end":11663.84,"text":"我找了一下其實如果我們現在單說這個警察條例會對哪一些其他人不公平呢例如其他的危勞人員是不是應該一起討論包括醫護人員包括監所人員包括義務役包括還有很多相關的人員像是民防這些人員其實他們都算在我們過去所謂的危勞人員裡面如果要討論是不是所有的危勞人員大家的福利薪資是都應該要起來討論呢這是其中一個沒錯"},{"start":11667.802,"end":11668.323,"text":"其他公務員等19人擬具"},{"start":11685.015,"end":11713.449,"text":"心理作和感想在座這麼多公務員大家難道不會覺得很委屈嗎所以我覺得要調一定要一起調反而不是說現在我們就好比說現在有一個大水庫結果我們在這裡撕接了一條水管說我們要把這個15年年資以上的警察人員就從這個水庫撕接出來然後提早把這個水庫的水用光最後就是提早這個水庫提早乾掉嘛"},{"start":11713.949,"end":11729.484,"text":"所以我覺得私階水管的事情絕對不能在這裡發生要談大家一起來談甚至我看了一下就是說如果現在我們用這個版本大家的版本下去會比公務員未來的退休金多17.5%"},{"start":11732.387,"end":11757.261,"text":"一開始就會多17.5%那我不知道在座這麼多公務員大家心裡會怎麼看待這樣的一個條例的通過那再來我覺得對最不公平的其實是對現職的警察尤其是年輕的警察為什麼呢因為我去看了一下這個條例裡面喔就是在這一次修正的啊35條警是用2013年7月以前到職的"},{"start":11757.981,"end":11782.754,"text":"警察人員也就是說在此之後的年輕警察並沒有因此受惠喔!就是說對年輕警察來說這個條例對他們來說是很沒有辦法因此而照顧到的那這樣子這個條例看起來真的是漏洞百出並且對於其他的公務員非常的不公平所以我想問的是次長如果真的要修是不是不能只修一半而是大家應該共同來討論呢?"},{"start":11784.535,"end":11809.033,"text":"我們會比較建議要公平對等的原則這個是大家必須要去堅持的不然這整個邏輯運作的原則就破壞掉了好 要拜託次長遵守這個原則請所有的公務員不管警消不管其他類型的公務員大家應該要一起來共同來討論這個大家共同使用的這個基金的來源嘛最後講一下說今天這樣子的法律通過"},{"start":11809.713,"end":11830.361,"text":"其實是違反財政紀律法第五條第七條以及預算法第九十一條還有憲法第七十條甚至違反我們四至三九一號立法院不得單獨增加預算違反了這麼多法律所以今天如果這樣的法律貿然的通過真的是不只是違反現行的財政紀律更是違憲啊"},{"start":11832.273,"end":11846.812,"text":"所以我希望今天這個討論拜託大家共同來照顧警消的權益真的很好我也很希望達到這個對的目標但是真的不要用錯的方法來撕結水管讓這個大水庫提早漏水好不好"},{"start":11847.453,"end":11876.353,"text":"根委員報告就是照顧警消這個部分限制的警消報告我其實一開始的時候就做人報告不管是待遇啦、縫集結構啦、他的這個撫恤啦、他的這個退休年齡啦他可以早時年齡、月退休金啦或者是這個因公上網、慰問金都是公務員的兩倍這公務員現在一千萬最高是提到兩千萬沒錯應該在限制他的危老的因素上面我們要更加的努力如果不夠的地方我想政府應該要持續的去關注"},{"start":11876.693,"end":11885.735,"text":"好 這個也要拜託我們次長選事部持續努力好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們下一位請黃建斌委員發言謝謝主席 我們請次長"},{"start":11911.843,"end":11919.24,"text":"委員市長警察退休場今年會進入高峰算提出申請不見得就會"},{"start":11921.226,"end":11949.446,"text":"不見得就會退休但是我跟你講有多少人會申請退休那個警察人員是警察機關最重要的資產人家他重點是不是是是是那警察的業務也繁多然後勤務繁重而且他的工作也深具危險性那現在情力不足的情況之下所有沉重的工作精神壓力會導致更多的基層員警在任職滿個15年就直接申請退休了那人力企業越來越欠缺"},{"start":11950.066,"end":11956.587,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文"},{"start":11978.53,"end":11986.803,"text":"那首先我想先問一下我們市長喔市長我們"},{"start":11988.84,"end":12003.424,"text":"警察工作辛苦眾所皆知甚至他為了工作連他的餘命都比別人短其實在我們110年全序部委外製作的這個平均餘命表來看二十歲的警察人員平均命大概是60.73一般公務員員是65.86我想問某部長市長為什麼會有這個差異性"},{"start":12010.126,"end":12010.606,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12034.218,"end":12037.343,"text":"條文及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法"},{"start":12049.841,"end":12068.198,"text":"全國的平均移民公務員跟警察員退休以後都比較高並沒有比較低的狀態當然警察又比一般公務員的平均移民稍微低一點但是他的差距"},{"start":12069.019,"end":12069.84,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":12094.338,"end":12109.35,"text":"警監四階以下的包括警左三階二階一階我們這四個等級其實都把他的縫級是拉到一般公務員八十等年功或最高級警左委任三十等的這個最高等級"},{"start":12110.151,"end":12131.733,"text":"整個都底下的其實都把他拉平了那這個當然就會反映在他未來退休的時候會比同等級的人譬如說警政事階是鑑認第六指等嘛那因為他本來我們在前端都已經把他的縫級拉高所以繳費的時候呢他就是拉高的跟一般八指等的公務員繳的是一樣的錢所以到他退休的時候"},{"start":12132.313,"end":12135.114,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":12151.681,"end":12153.663,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":12168.453,"end":12173.839,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":12189.315,"end":12189.355,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12206.681,"end":12231.427,"text":"二）委員雖然我們除了警察退休獲得安定生活的考慮以外,我想要請教現在我們國家有沒有關心警察的身心健康,定期安排做心理的健康的諮詢跟診斷,有沒有這樣一個結尾?這個我想張署長應該比我更清楚,我們警政署已經一直有在做了。署長我們今年那個房子的經費370萬而已。"},{"start":12234.164,"end":12257.82,"text":"三十七十萬的但檢察院的Burg我們近4年有22個員警自殺全國約1萬名的警察因為情緒受困擾6千人有自殺的意願而且前年你看你的經費才370萬那雖然說警察是人民的保姆但他也是人他要協助這些警察的心理問題刻不容緩應該制定更多的保護的措施吧"},{"start":12258.3,"end":12259.241,"text":"關老師心理健康諮詢計畫"},{"start":12272.609,"end":12292.261,"text":"報告委員,這個部份是警政署比較了解,拜託警政署張署長來做說明。我們這些的這個新府機關就是各警察機關都是有設置,設置的原始,原而不一。那我們現在就是為擴大那個新府機制的委外的"},{"start":12293.101,"end":12297.424,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法制等19人擬具"},{"start":12314.494,"end":12314.614,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12342.806,"end":12368.894,"text":"下一位我們請黃國昌委員發言我們同時先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項之處理謝謝主席有請內政部次長、權敘部次長、警政署署長以及消防署署長兩位署長"},{"start":12380.289,"end":12406.464,"text":"四位時間的關係不一一問候我相信絕大多數台灣的人民對於不管是軍人、警察、我們消防的弟兄還有在執行我們整個海岸安全的海巡署的同仁大家都有一份非常高非常高的敬意因為他們的工作承擔了其他人所沒有面臨到的風險"},{"start":12407.885,"end":12433.194,"text":"我相信有很多委員今天會提出這個案子也是考量到了我們的警消同仁他們在第一線工作的時候的辛勞以及他們過去這麼長的時間對國家的犧牲跟奉獻我相信絕大多數的台灣人民跟我的想法是一樣的我們對於警消不管是現職還是退休的"},{"start":12434.334,"end":12459.499,"text":"應該都要給予比較好的待遇來肯定他們願意冒險犧牲犯難對國家所做的奉獻我相信這個基本的態度我跟在場四位的官員應該都有相同的想法在這個基礎上面我們就必須要很務實的來看我們現在所面臨的狀況到底是什麼"},{"start":12460.399,"end":12487.448,"text":"因為我在2022年那個時候警政署其實在處理有關於總預算的時候所提出來的報告我看到一個現象那個現象是說我們先看員警的部分他們平均退休的年齡從2015年大概是51歲大概將近52歲到了2023年最新我所拿到的data"},{"start":12488.288,"end":12517.668,"text":"延長到五十五點六十然後平均任職的年資從過去大概二十九點八年到現在已經到三十四點三十三年這個是第一個比較清楚的圖像來我想先請教一下署長因為署長作為警察的大家長應該對於我們第一屆的警察他們的工作他們的生活他們面臨到的狀況應該都有很深刻的了解"},{"start":12518.288,"end":12518.908,"text":"條例修正條例修正條例"},{"start":12543.112,"end":12570.969,"text":"當出現這樣子的狀況當然我們是希望整個國家的財務能夠平衡但在另外一方面我們要考慮到整個警力老化的問題因為警察冒險犯案在第一線衝鋒陷陣隨著整個警力的老化我相信在警察的勤務上以及犯罪的偵查上都會面臨到很實際的問題跟困難署長您認同嗎認同好來我們再看第二頁"},{"start":12571.989,"end":12599.326,"text":"第二我更擔心的狀況是什麼就是說我們在預算上面其實署長可以清楚的看得出來立法院在預算原額上面其實對警察是很支持的我們從2019年7萬5千人到2023年1萬3千人其實數額都不算低但我們如果看實際的原額的話就會發現缺額越來越高"},{"start":12599.906,"end":12600.046,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12616.482,"end":12643.461,"text":"我覺得這個缺口會造成一些排擠的這個效用就是有一些工作在做執行面有一些是警力的不足那可能在排班上也會接續不下來那這個部分因為我們也把這個缺口就會列為是一個很重要的一個未來人力訓練我打開天窗說亮話啦現在年輕人越來越不想幹警察是這樣嗎"},{"start":12645.791,"end":12671.197,"text":"我覺得應該也不能說同意這樣來講如果不是這樣的話那缺額的原因大概是什麼因為我光看統計數字我不是第一線冒險犯案的警察我沒有辦法回答這個問題所以我才請教我們警界的大家長署長就是說按照你的了解現在這個缺額發生的原因是什麼因為我們一定要對症下藥嘛對"},{"start":12671.917,"end":12671.977,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12699.369,"end":12719.372,"text":"在另外一方面我們也不得不去考慮到說當年後退休的人數越來越多年齡越來越高然後另外一邊進來的缺額越來越多那對於整體整個警察人力老化的現象對於警察的工作所造成實際的衝擊是什麼我相信"},{"start":12720.213,"end":12722.214,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":12745.069,"end":12761.016,"text":"一般上大概都是工作上的原因會比較大一點就是因為他工作的項目還有工作上的一個壓力還有家庭的因素或者是他要去做轉行大概這三個方面的層面會比較多一點"},{"start":12762.608,"end":12784.367,"text":"您作為新任的警察署長對於這樣的現象您有沒有什麼解決的建議?譬如說我們今天立法院我相信所有的委員都有共識我們要改善給警察的待遇我們希望這個缺額不要這樣繼續因為我們給法定原額或者是給預算原額沒有意義給了原額人還是進"},{"start":12785.248,"end":12789.992,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第1次聯席會議"},{"start":12809.81,"end":12810.331,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":12816.676,"end":12819.517,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":12845.939,"end":12860.544,"text":"因為時間的關係我很快要把它做結束了今天利用質詢的時間我有兩件事情要特別拜託我們的警察署的署長還有消防署的署長我要特別拜託兩位的一件事情就是說"},{"start":12861.684,"end":12888.569,"text":"多跟我們年輕的基層員警還有消防的弟兄溝通請聽他們的心聲我覺得這件事情很重要這樣你才可以真的瞭解他們的想法跟他們工作上面面臨的問題跟困境才有辦法有效的反映他們的心聲作為我們立法院不管是在政策上、法案上、預算上面非常重要參考的基準特別是"},{"start":12889.289,"end":12889.809,"text":"兩位署長可不可以承諾"},{"start":12907.998,"end":12936.385,"text":"多去聽聽基層的員警跟消防員特別是年輕的基層員警跟消防員的心聲把他們的意見彙整起來了以後讓我們立法院不僅僅是司法法制委員會的委員讓全體的委員都可以參考這樣可以嗎可以消防署署長可以嗎可以最後我要拜託因為我相信這些殉職、因公死亡、因公傷殘的數字"},{"start":12938.905,"end":12958.86,"text":"看起來是冰冷冷的數字啦但每一個數字背後都是一個破碎的家庭我們怎麼樣提升他們在工作職場上面的保護安全衛生的保障我相信這我們大家要共同努力我知道行政院今天針對消防法提出了有關於專章嘛"},{"start":12959.88,"end":12982.315,"text":"職業安全衛生法還是要用消防法的專章我們未來討論到法案的時候再進一步討論但最後一點時間我要拜託一下全序部全序部你們可能是時間比較趕所以你們今天所提出的口頭補充報告針對不同的版本針對不同的版本你們只有提出一個概算的數目我們沒有還沒有來得及做進口"},{"start":12982.975,"end":12998.57,"text":"那您需要多久做一個比較細緻的報告因為我覺得每個立法委員大家都願意負責任的去平衡對於我們警消同仁的保障跟國家財務上面世代正義上面兩方面的考慮那"},{"start":12999.631,"end":13013.98,"text":"我們在立法院審議其實我認為我們要務實理性科學那個不是用喊價的方式所以權敘部什麼時候可以提出比較細緻的報告這件事情就很重要來請教一下權敘部需要多久"},{"start":13015.233,"end":13037.652,"text":"跟委員報告的確在這個上面會時間會需要比較長因為我們不是專業的這個部分我們要委託精算的公司那大概要多久?大概需要多久?一次的精算大概起整至少都要半年以上"},{"start":13038.314,"end":13038.654,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":13063.462,"end":13077.011,"text":"到火場上面衝鋒陷陣的應該要比一般的公務人員要給他比較好的待遇的話那我們面臨的財務的衝擊是什麼因為現在這不是只有0跟1的選擇0就是完全不要動嘛"},{"start":13078.001,"end":13101.961,"text":"那全部就是按照現在委員提出來的版本比照均人90或95%嘛但是在不同的情境下面射算出來國家的財務負擔到底要多少這件事情可能要特別拜託全序部能夠盡快的提出這樣子的一個報告出來要不然的話所有的立法委員在這個事情上面做決策會變得沒有數字的基礎我覺得會有一點危險啊"},{"start":13103.878,"end":13119.152,"text":"報告委員我們可不可以會後再跟回去等個盤了以後再跟可以啦因為我相信我提出這樣的請求絕對不是只有我有這樣的需求啦有很多立委我相信他們在做決策的時候都是很負責任的"},{"start":13119.853,"end":13134.165,"text":"在作決策。」那因此選區部這邊的意見跟數字的基礎就會變成立法院最後在處理這個法案的時候重要的基礎所以還是要特別拜託選區部在這件事情上面多努力一點好嗎好好謝謝"},{"start":13135.446,"end":13152.932,"text":"黃偉你的意思是因為程序部有一個口頭報告說明是你要的是超過這個的對啦他會說你太粗啦就是說你比較我跟主席報告一下你比較細緻一點的來看現在每年多少人"},{"start":13153.772,"end":13153.892,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13177.873,"end":13183.058,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例三草案．一）委員"},{"start":13202.247,"end":13202.427,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13232.312,"end":13232.372,"text":"徐宇貞委員"},{"start":13253.874,"end":13259.657,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":13270.743,"end":13288.441,"text":"我想6月15號就是警察節了所以在警察節的前夕我們來這個審查這個警察人事條例第三十五條的條文修正我想也有真的是對於退休的這個警校人員來說讓他們生活更有保障我想這是對警察人員最高的一個致敬"},{"start":13289.182,"end":13292.804,"text":"二）委員賴副總統在去年擔任副總統的時候也有針對我們的警察提高勤務加級的15%來回應這些堅守崗位讓我們的警察從政府成為人民的保姆的靠山"},{"start":13308.192,"end":13311.034,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":13333.564,"end":13357.458,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們警消同仁我們把它分成三個部分一個就是說我們限職同仁的照顧那第二是所謂的撫恤第三個是退休那對於這三個部分我們有三個部分不同的一個照顧跟我們的設計那限職同仁的部分以警察來講我們目前已經有16項對於限職警察我現在針對的是退休的這個警消人員"},{"start":13358.038,"end":13383.724,"text":"退休警校員的部分是依照我們的立場就是說我們對於退休警校同仁的權益的提升這個我們絕對是同意的但是怎麼去提升怎麼樣能夠合理的然後能夠讓我們的措施跟國家的財政能夠做平衡這個需要去跟委員在討論所以次長原則上對於這個部分我們的修正條例您是同意的但就是至於什麼方式我們都可以再討論是嗎"},{"start":13384.904,"end":13387.046,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13401.876,"end":13416.422,"text":"對我剛有很多委員都這樣提的就是說我們對於限職跟退休都同樣會去做照顧那至於這一些今天修了這一條我們會跟相關的單位會來積極來做溝通協助來做積極處理謝謝那蕭署長"},{"start":13423.239,"end":13449.536,"text":"感謝委員對消防的關心在過去的時間目前是有23個計畫274億的經費未來會投注在消防的工作上那昨天院長也批示一個就針對職業安全我們給消防人員的一個服務這是限制人員的部分當然對退職人員我們同樣盡量想溝通協調的方式來讓退職人員能夠得到相對的一個服務跟限制"},{"start":13449.656,"end":13478.122,"text":"所以我想三位其實對於這個部分其實都有共識就是希望用協調的方式來去針對我們退休的警消人員能夠給予他們最大的一個協助那請問一下全序部我們張次長你好你好像全序部我看他的你們提出的報告是說提高警消等人員的退休替代所得替代率會引起其他人數眾多的其他公務人員的不滿嗎這的確是這樣的狀態因為大家都繳一樣的錢"},{"start":13479.062,"end":13479.442,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13498.399,"end":13500.04,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法律事條例修正條文及法律事條例"},{"start":13518.416,"end":13521.878,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13537.965,"end":13553.132,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法"},{"start":13560.735,"end":13587.76,"text":"我們現在是公保基金我們已經很健康了我們是足而提準的然後退伏基金這個部分因為大家的努力大家的共體時間之後其實我覺得啦以公平性來說的話我覺得就是說既然這個老保基金可以用這樣的方式那我們退伏基金應該全序部也要想辦法是不是用什麼樣的方式那我想還有再來就是說請教這個馬次長就是說我們的這個新式身份數位身份證的換發到現在因為暫停"},{"start":13590.541,"end":13594.844,"text":"但是已經浪費了納稅人10億多那現在每年還要花6735萬來維護未來可能不會使用的這個設備啊所以如果每年喔既然我覺得這個稅務身份證應該要趕快的來去決定說到底要不要繼續還是終止"},{"start":13608.755,"end":13609.175,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":13631.352,"end":13654.694,"text":"還有錯誤的能源政策我們每一度電要花12塊跟綠電業者買電所以導致台電到現在已經連續兩年虧損達5460億也是用撥補的也是政府撥補的所以如果這些錯誤的能源政策不要浪費這好幾千億那請問一下我們退休金警察人員的退休金是不是就可以不要被砍了呢"},{"start":13655.294,"end":13656.995,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13673.526,"end":13676.448,"text":"二）委員韋雲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13702.253,"end":13706.215,"text":"謝謝 請回好 下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝昭偉 有請我們全序部我們張次長麻煩張次長還有我們警政署我們張署長"},{"start":13733.363,"end":13759.578,"text":"這是張署長第一次這樣向你請教一個問題那我想這個先請教一下次長就是說我看今天我們審這個警察條例這個部分如果說我們單獨去提高所得替代率的一個上限到98到95%你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎"},{"start":13760.606,"end":13784.168,"text":"這我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態我最擔心的是什麼?剛剛所提到的就是說整個基金所有的適用的對象應該是一致的一個去對待這是整個財政規劃的一個核心那你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準一致的一個基本原則你比如說警察人員的部分你給付的替代率你去把它增高了"},{"start":13785.635,"end":13785.835,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13807.099,"end":13834.249,"text":"其實大家在講道理啦牽扯到整個國家財政的一個問題那對於警消人員的一個照顧我相信我們這些兄弟把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察跟消防人員其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情加錢大家都喜歡但問題大家幫他想想看我記得我們從小英政府2016年上台以後"},{"start":13835.322,"end":13838.184,"text":"條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11"},{"start":13865.522,"end":13870.126,"text":"三十五條條文以目前年金改革的結果目前你看一八十三年三十五年人資退休的所得替代率六十七點五"},{"start":13887.078,"end":13904.603,"text":"五條條文一直到一百一十八年你就變六十趴喔你變六十趴這是當年的年金改革很重要的一個結果我記得從2017年的時候你精算的報告結果出來以後如果按照當時的十八趴的優存跟這麼高的所得地貸率喔我們當初是講說到2031年就是說一百二十年的時候就會透支了"},{"start":13908.644,"end":13908.684,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":13929.093,"end":13946.5,"text":"所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政世界當例子啦113年到現在退休的月啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話"},{"start":13955.203,"end":13956.524,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":13976.934,"end":13989.506,"text":"那他的月退金就馬上變成六萬八千九百五十二比限制多的這六千多按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到七千七百塊錢這樣四十年的秘書關接不變"},{"start":13995.251,"end":14007.154,"text":"六萬五千兩百二十六通過了新法修正以後,馬上飆到八萬零五百九十九塊。這個產生一個什麼樣的現象呢?就是說,處長,這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎?退休的人,到現在限職的又怎麼樣了?"},{"start":14015.854,"end":14029.008,"text":"對,就是這樣。會有這種狀況,所以我請教啦,我要請教我們署長署長,署長我要請教你就是說,因為這個跟你們最有關係啦,你也會退休啊,所以你們到底對於這個修法的態度是什麼?"},{"start":14030.202,"end":14053.969,"text":"我覺得就是說對於照顧退休的也是要去照顧但是要合理啦要合理的一個照顧那現在的這個所得替代率現在增高就是如果比較國均是90%那未來就是說在這個所得替代率的部分是不是能夠有這些討論的空間那我們會跟相關的這個機關來積極來做一個協調處理"},{"start":14057.11,"end":14057.15,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":14080.174,"end":14102.599,"text":"其實我倒覺得啦你們最主要還是要把說針對現在提出的版本你退伍基金從113年開始你要增加多少支出到118年最高額到底是多少這扣開出來之後衝擊大家才算得出來啦還有很多危險的相同的你都還沒放進去的你像比如說你都如果說到113年你像你們所講的初步了解是53億一路到118年78億這還沒有把消防跟海巡加進來喔對"},{"start":14109.44,"end":14130.662,"text":"那我要問的就是說啊你像比如說你現在如果在警察人事條例裡面你們特別去這個在黨特別去修正所得替代率的話那你到最後你特別法會優於普通法你會產生一個很大的問題喔你看他修正的這個第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款喔我請次長你們特別去注意喔"},{"start":14131.425,"end":14132.525,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．事由．委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":14154.125,"end":14155.186,"text":"三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":14180.538,"end":14182.52,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":14198.428,"end":14201.671,"text":"對弊會接受。」這個像我剛剛講的,你單獨去提高,那你繳費的部分又維持不變,這開什麼玩笑啊。但是我建議啊,那個署長您那邊衝擊多少的部分,到時候"},{"start":14214.804,"end":14215.505,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":14234.345,"end":14249.753,"text":"這個大家都要面對社會面對整個輿論大家來理性來做一個討論這個不然光光這樣的一個方式的話我我我相信還沒有辦法去大家去體驗到體認到說整個衝擊會有多大了好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝總委員好先為我們請徐欣穎委員發言"},{"start":14268.435,"end":14270.376,"text":"三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":14292.209,"end":14316.881,"text":"我們好像十幾年前在新竹縣議會 慶蘭秘書非常照顧我 非常感謝先恭喜您 但是今天想跟您來討論因為我們今天是談警察人事條例 包含警消這個內容包含警消首先第一個就是說"},{"start":14318.376,"end":14340.471,"text":"同工同酬跟不同工不同酬您認同吧?對,同工同酬不同工不同酬所以我們的警消人員啊他們跟我們一般公務員做辦公室是不一樣嘛是不一樣,我剛剛有報告過等一下我可以再跟委員做比較詳細的說明您認同嘛,所以"},{"start":14341.209,"end":14344.693,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等27人擬具"},{"start":14358.166,"end":14385.789,"text":"工作的危險性還有他們的這種勞動性的程度跟一般公務人員就是不一樣。這個應該是整體面的,我們是就我們這個人事制度的部分做了哪些事。那剛剛其實署長那邊也有說了很多在工作上、配備上啦,他整個的一個這個執勤的方式上面其實應該有更多的配套讓這個我們警消通人能夠有更好的保障。"},{"start":14386.172,"end":14386.272,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":14407.794,"end":14423.678,"text":"公務人員等警察人員手心是肉,手臂也是肉,我們必須要有一個平衡的對待。公務人員有週休二日,還有國定假日,休假,加班補休。"},{"start":14424.418,"end":14424.558,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":14443.917,"end":14444.598,"text":"二）委員為何警消缺額問題一直沒辦法解決?"},{"start":14461.736,"end":14478.525,"text":"為什麼那麼少人想要去然後這個警消呢他加擠這麼多可是離職這麼多那而且提前申請退休等等那多做幾年不是更好領更多啊所以這一塊不用你答跟委員搶一點點時間啦就是我們的統計其實這幾年警消的退休是一個比較常態的現象的狀態但是每年大概1600多人到1800他是一個穩定的狀態啦"},{"start":14490.891,"end":14493.695,"text":"這幾年穩定這幾年人就一直不足啊警消人都不足嘛所以你聽一下警政署跟消防署的聲音好不好我們可以把數據提供給你對對對對好來欸署署長委員好"},{"start":14506.093,"end":14506.734,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":14524.795,"end":14550.02,"text":"對非警勤務所以有一些要他在退休的這個考慮上他可能有時候就是因為他今天累月他可能受不了他就可能就是提早退休我們的立場是我們警察尤其時代的變化我們看到真的警消人員都非常辛苦那當然我們警察人員更是那這個消防人員是有勤務的時候來這個"},{"start":14553.072,"end":14556.975,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":14583.719,"end":14598.809,"text":"消防人員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第"},{"start":14609.522,"end":14622.372,"text":"我們十年前警察號稱八萬大軍現在剩下七萬人手變少但勤務增加加上社會變遷他們都非常的辛苦所以我們還是希望"},{"start":14624.471,"end":14649.23,"text":"如果真的要講到整體那當然我相信很多委員也有講這整個整體我們有為的連人的政府那個錢是絕對可以替我們民眾對我們各行各業來想辦法但是我也認同是要合理那這個合理就是在於我們大家要共同來看我們對警察對警消人員我們的照顧是不夠的"},{"start":14650.211,"end":14677.537,"text":"我們希望可以對他們能夠更好所以這個部分我們也希望次長這裡能夠重視我們今天本席就特別跟你特別談就是說你針對警消我們本來就不一樣那最後我表達就是說有關年金改革其實年金改革也是對不起軍公教人員怎麼可以違反信賴保障原則"},{"start":14678.257,"end":14706.831,"text":"只是這一個部分在過去這個這過去八年這我們不談但是所以這一塊就是你自己也是公務人員就我們就是對不起這個軍公教你如果要改革可以你不能溯及既往這個是最重要原則那我們今天談這個警察的這個條例這個人事條例的部分所以我們是針對警消他們的這種辛苦跟危險我們一定要重視所以他們"},{"start":14707.631,"end":14711.174,"text":"條文提供的照顧,我覺得是可以加權,也可以加重。就這樣,謝謝。"},{"start":14739.524,"end":14748.836,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家午安是不是有請那個內政部的政次還有我們這個警政署的署長以及消防組的署長謝謝"},{"start":14760.201,"end":14778.328,"text":"兩位署長,今天是我們這個有關於這個三十五條的修正案,就是在討論這個有關年金的部分,那今天這個立法院外也很多的這個警校退休的人員到現場幫署長加油,正式知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":14781.186,"end":14799.759,"text":"所以我認為今天這件事情非常的重要那我今天討論的一個重點就是當然希望說這個要還給所有辛苦奉公守法熱愛中華民國的警消同仁一個公道所以我要先請正式休息一下我要請兩位署長"},{"start":14800.62,"end":14802.182,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":14813.499,"end":14820.101,"text":"警察人員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案案 案件,其中一人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案 案件,其中一人擬具"},{"start":14837.207,"end":14862.254,"text":"謝謝署長,我們請消防署署長,這是寶貴的時間,拜託。感謝委員對消防這麼關心照顧,限職人員跟退休人員一樣重要,限職人員我們最近也獲得到協定有23個計劃,271已經會最近在進行當中,那未來對消防人員職業安全、福利保障我想會有更多的一個處理措施,謝謝。好,謝謝,那請正次。"},{"start":14863.393,"end":14864.513,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":14884.278,"end":14890.539,"text":"條文修正第三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文"},{"start":14910.267,"end":14933.946,"text":"大家不要認為只有缺五千個人我們預算切合就到達五千位現有緣額也不足我們用與新北市來舉例新北市四百萬人口只有七千兩百九十位員警平均一位員警要照顧要關心或是執行的時候要配合五百位的我們的新北市民請問一下政治"},{"start":14934.787,"end":14957.364,"text":"或者是我們的署長以前在學校教的時候是給這樣子我們的警察同仁這樣子的環境說你們以後一個人要顧五百個我們的民眾嗎跟委員報告缺額的部分其實它有蠻多的因素那很多是社會經濟上面的一些誘因的狀況那我們在限職的警消同仁的執行環境上面事實上我們有做很多的努力"},{"start":14957.824,"end":14958.144,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":14981.152,"end":14983.313,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":15007.225,"end":15031.47,"text":"我還對很多的議題很有意見現在如果我遇到很多的這個家裡是警察頭人的這個給我反應的心聲現在一般的家庭假設爸爸是警察媽媽因為警察會非常辛苦所以媽媽有時候都全職全職在家裡帶小孩那我們一直在講不管是警消的平均的生命、壽命大概60歲上下"},{"start":15035.653,"end":15059.587,"text":"如果爸爸離開了以後媽媽只能領半薪的部分基本上他們很多都是全職媽媽如果只能現在又少子的話生小孩的時間又短又比較晚他們只能領半薪很多人不管是現在還有被背防帶的請問他們領半薪如何他們能照顧他們自己的現在的家人跟小孩你們會不會覺得這個有問題"},{"start":15061.842,"end":15071.942,"text":"跟委員報告有關於這個他是屬於撫恤的部分不是不是退休了以後的半薪對領半薪的部分你覺得他可以照顧他的小孩嗎"},{"start":15072.72,"end":15100.007,"text":"如果是以這個退休的半限的話當然是有困難對阿這個是不是需要來來檢討跟改善我們跟我們要跟這個權序部跟人總來討論這是第一個問題阿我相信就是你們沒有去關心他們的權益阿爸爸是現在我們的警察人員退休了以後他平均的餘命60出頭60出頭有些還不到消防員還不到結果因為他平常工務繁忙他的太太全職了結果後來現在"},{"start":15101.107,"end":15118.452,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第二十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第二十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第二十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．委"},{"start":15131.101,"end":15137.026,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":15159.995,"end":15180.528,"text":"這個配偶啊只不能領他的半薪只能兩邊選一個看誰的高的選誰那這樣是不是有懲罰婚姻的一個狀況這樣子的話會不會有人就覺得說那如果我的另外一半是警察非常不合理這樣會不會有懲罰婚姻那是不是有違反憲法這個婚姻大家婚姻平權的一個問題這次知道這樣的問題嗎"},{"start":15183.652,"end":15191.803,"text":"報委員我們有聽說那這個部分是不是我們會後我們邀集相關的單位跟委員我們在做說明因為這個問題有點複雜複雜在哪裡因為這裡面有牽涉到權序部的職權"},{"start":15197.698,"end":15215.851,"text":"所以我要跟大家報告不管是現在總結啦因為時間的關係總結不管是我們對於現在我們所有的現在現職的大家一直說我們在保護現職的這個軍警消同仁我覺得保護不足啊光是現在就有很多的問題"},{"start":15217.591,"end":15222.355,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":15246.335,"end":15262.788,"text":"來找我們過來我們真的不知道如何發生所以我希望說是會後大概多久時間可以給我一個報告讓我來讓我來為這些問題做一個瞭解我們會後跟委員辦公室約盡快的時間會處理嗎市長覺得這是問題嗎對不對的確是問題好OK好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15272.827,"end":15276.648,"text":"好,謝謝張委員接下來我們請丁學忠委員感謝主席我們現場各位官員各位議員同仁大家好我請我們這個人事總署副人事長以及內政副次長好,次長"},{"start":15303.129,"end":15317.522,"text":"委員市長好,今天我們這個調整警察人員的退休金的制度,我們是我們行政院跟我們警察人員的中間,我們可以簡單來說明說我們這個立條嗎?"},{"start":15323.947,"end":15346.322,"text":"該委員報告,就是我們現在對現實的消防及警察人員,我們已經有十六項對於職業安全及津貼的部分都有提供。在制度的設計定管,我們在限職的警消同仁及他的輔助及退休,都比一般的公務人員更好。"},{"start":15348.123,"end":15349.003,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":15377.89,"end":15382.172,"text":"五條條文修正草案案件事條例三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案案件事條例三草案案件事條例三"},{"start":15406.385,"end":15407.626,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":15425.52,"end":15428.263,"text":"一﹗人擬具當然是政府開了年改的國事會議,我們沒有聽到警察及公務人員的意見,沒有他們操作年年世代的對立,讓這幾年來我們退休人員,每一年都讀到退休金,想說高中出問題,我們這幾天來跟你們歡迎,我們會關於提案。"},{"start":15448.604,"end":15449.325,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":15463.991,"end":15465.632,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具"},{"start":15487.621,"end":15490.762,"text":"過去十年總共有五十二位,大家在警察的工作惡劣,惡劣是有多大。我可以向消防署長請教一下,我們消防林原棠這十九年來已經損失到四十五位消防弟兄,經過這兩天的審訊,"},{"start":15508.626,"end":15514.15,"text":"二）委員發揮來殉職,而這部份的事情大家都沒有想要看到,但是正因一件事,警察人員及消防人員,他們的工作內容是高危險度及高辛勞度,不一樣的,像這個公務人員都不一樣,這些制度應該是要人員來檢視,請問我們次長及署長這樣你們有同意嗎?"},{"start":15533.527,"end":15550.06,"text":"感謝委員,感謝委員對小黃這麼重視,其實在職人員、退休人員同步在進行當中,那在職人員我們投注更多的心力,最近就是有23個月要給地線消防人員的裝備器材、職業安全這些保障。"},{"start":15550.88,"end":15551.381,"text":"二）委員三）委員三）委員"},{"start":15569.622,"end":15573.704,"text":"三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具"},{"start":15597.995,"end":15611.186,"text":"這就是因為什麼?因為緊張時,他們在入侵的時候,臨戶相當,身體腹瘓比較不妥,所以他們就都會提早來提休。所以在這裡,要跟我們署長及市長各個說,我們經銷人員,我們都吃照顧不好,我們薪水福利都比公務人員好,真的不好,但是他們"},{"start":15626.587,"end":15627.468,"text":"二）委員三）委員三）委員"},{"start":15654.585,"end":15670.401,"text":"兩位委員報告,因為這個制度有整個行政在設計的時候,還有科技在設計的時候的一個彭平性。所以我們現在就是說,我們對著我們退休人員的照顧這個風雄,我們都贊成。"},{"start":15672.463,"end":15676.947,"text":"條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":15692.361,"end":15692.501,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":15712.904,"end":15713.124,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":15742.588,"end":15749.17,"text":"大刀一砍,獨卸給他們當未來的生活。我常常也遇到很多經銷的朋友、退休的朋友,留在人群過山裡。他們說,我說,啊你怎麼會在人群運動?他們說,啊我比較顧身體,到人群去給他們獨卸到這樣,到真的生活過程的時候,要請外勞,那一陣子也有救。"},{"start":15765.376,"end":15770.338,"text":"條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":15793.985,"end":15795.546,"text":"一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議。"},{"start":15824.249,"end":15851.263,"text":"指揮官．主席．各位委員．有請這個．內政部．次長．次長．還有．警政署署長．麻煩署長．委員好．好兩位好．這個警察人員人事條例．這個"},{"start":15854.035,"end":15881.497,"text":"從任官、任職、奉給、考核與考積、退休與撫恤都定的每一章都有規定。但是呢很可惜的就是這個涉及到退休的部分就是說適用公務人員退休之前撫恤法退休的部分然後撫恤的部分也是一樣"},{"start":15883.632,"end":15906.037,"text":"第三十六條第一項警察人員之撫恤適用公務人員撫恤法之規定我們看軍公教警消公務人員退休之前撫恤法教師有公立學校照教職員退休之前撫恤條例這個軍人呢"},{"start":15909.677,"end":15932.087,"text":"陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例。」就是因為陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例他有另外的法律所以當初在所謂的年金改革的時候當時的國防部長堅持不能跟公務人員一樣"},{"start":15933.206,"end":15961.259,"text":"所以他的退休相關的規定有比公務人員按照當時的這個比例來去看的話那警察人員竟然有人事條例所以我從第8屆我現在是第11屆我從第8屆開始就開始質詢內政部警政署包括考試院"},{"start":15962.585,"end":15987.719,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律"},{"start":15991.906,"end":16016.569,"text":"警察警消的退休之前不應該跟公務人員一樣因為同工同酬不同工就要不同酬這是最基本的認同嗎認同嗎認同啊所以我當初我先從"},{"start":16018.376,"end":16044.118,"text":"前系部部長質詢現在考試院副院長未來的考試院院長我就質詢他警察人員的退休之前應該要專定在全部移到警察人員人事條例裡面他沒有反對啊我說你們可能不配合周鴻憲當時的部長說"},{"start":16046.809,"end":16071.021,"text":"因為這個警察人員人事條例的主管機關是內政部所以他不能替你們修我擔心他不配合他說我們不會不配合我們要考慮說紅線部長現在未來考試院長說我們要考慮各類公務人員權益之間的平衡品現在就是沒有衡品嘛"},{"start":16072.139,"end":16098.835,"text":"所以今天為什麼要修這個就是要橫平先修未來就是把這個所有的退休之前服務器全部移到警察人員人事條例我還特別諮詢了說內政部如果提出修正警察人員人事條例希望你們配合他說好"},{"start":16100.808,"end":16107.114,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":16116.325,"end":16117.605,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":16139.275,"end":16139.555,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":16168.615,"end":16197.032,"text":"最根本的第一個我們先修正通過這個三十五條接下來往後你們就要好好的把警察人員人事條例做徹底的修正把所有退休之前撫恤的部分全部移到移到這個警察人員人事條例因為本來這個章名就有啊對不對章名都有啊"},{"start":16198.332,"end":16200.678,"text":"二）委員林德福"},{"start":16217.378,"end":16227.526,"text":"謝謝主席辛苦了我們是不是請內政部的馬次長還有權敘部的張次長還有這個警政署張署長還有消防署蕭署長我想齁因為"},{"start":16242.709,"end":16264.735,"text":"根據中正大學調查民眾對警察維護治安工作滿意度達到74.91%有7乘5的民眾肯定警察人員在工作上的專業表現那馬上6月15號就是警察節也即將到來本席首先還要謝謝所有警察同仁"},{"start":16265.675,"end":16291.191,"text":"二十四小時三百六十五天維護全國的治安。現任勞動部長何佩珊一句話說政府撥補勞保負擔最終的知乎責任就是改革本席相信很多基層的警消警察跟消防聽了這個是非常非常的不服氣因為"},{"start":16294.891,"end":16311.151,"text":"講實在話這個警察跟消防他們能夠來在裡面上班工作是要經過考試的餒對不對其他他們有經過考試嗎沒有啊而且有一點"},{"start":16313.934,"end":16339.455,"text":"法律不能唆棄既往今天修法以後你追溯到過去跟政府簽的合約然後來砍殺他們有道理嗎我在立法院第7屆了我們要講道理對不對而且那個年輕改革你說過去政府很多政策講實在話早上那個徐宇貞講的你們真的要汗顏啦錯誤的政策比貪污一百倍可怕"},{"start":16340.476,"end":16365.639,"text":"為什麼我這麼講?一個人員政策光台電就撥補五千多億對不對而且疫苗快篩包括零零總總啦太多了啦講實在話那個一次都幾百億幾千億甚至於那個透抽雞蛋等等這個實在不應該啦你包括這個數位發展部花兩百多億做出什麼"},{"start":16367.122,"end":16381.59,"text":"下一個會期我認為我們要把他砍殺你留這個布幹什麼兩百多一撥不到我們那個消防署裡面添那些老舊設備不要讓消防人員一次一次進去以後就掛掉了"},{"start":16382.472,"end":16387.054,"text":"二）委員二十七年民進黨占絕對多數來推動這整個年金的改革修法導致這些基層的警消所得替代力大幅度的下降"},{"start":16405.701,"end":16423.581,"text":"對退休警察生活產生很大的衝擊,包括監察委員都提出調查報告說其實警察最近就變成反退,為什麼反對?因為新陳代謝困難,基層警察這個他們沒有辦法就老化了,因為"},{"start":16424.582,"end":16429.926,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":16449.192,"end":16471.384,"text":"那一百一十年那國人平均餘命是多少八十點八六歲換句話說相差六年之多所以說基層的這些警消常常在二十四小時他們輪替的他們的任務扶秦等於是日夜作息顛倒導致他們的疾病啦意外啦等等"},{"start":16472.918,"end":16477.119,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":16500.985,"end":16522.313,"text":"這有道理嗎?次長您的看法呢?報告委員我們方向上對於我們現職警消同仁或者是退休警消同仁我們都採取這個一視同仁照顧這樣的一個立場這個沒有問題那對於細節的部分就數字的精算這個部分可能我們要再多一些溝通你回應我"},{"start":16523.473,"end":16552.318,"text":"像這個年改這個溯及既往已經跟人家簽約的然後把他砍殺你要是說我今天這個修法以後從現在開始那沒有話講毋庸置疑但是追溯政府跟人家簽約這個有道理嗎可以用這個多數的暴力來處理嗎對不對我相信這一句話你們回應不出來啦法律可以溯及既往"},{"start":16553.308,"end":16555.43,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":16569.088,"end":16595.342,"text":"為什麼?勞當初我在當國民黨團總召他說軍公教勞全部都要處理勞有沒有處理大家心知肚明啦勞工有一千多萬勞工就擱在那裡就只有處理軍公教因為軍公教都是支持國民黨的嘛對不對幾乎都是支持國民黨把他砍殺嘛對不對讓他們沒有辦法生活嘛"},{"start":16596.921,"end":16619.951,"text":"講實在話摸著良心我們這個社會要公平要正義以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林委員那下一位我們請洪孟楷委員發言謝謝主席我直接請我們張榮興署長麻煩張署長"},{"start":16625.762,"end":16626.322,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":16642.094,"end":16670.019,"text":"最重要的是根本問題有沒有解決警界會反彈退休的保障不足是因為退休警察在職期間權益其不充分被剝奪也因此重視限職警察權益改革的必要性避免歷史重蹈覆轍這是大家都要重視的現在的制度延後退貨是極富少其實在之前的年金改革國是會議裡面也有提出來除了修改退休金以外要改善警察的勞動條件"},{"start":16671.139,"end":16672.78,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":16700.939,"end":16704.341,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":16718.368,"end":16718.588,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":16740.106,"end":16740.967,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具"},{"start":16760.578,"end":16763.601,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議"},{"start":16770.987,"end":16797.125,"text":"指揮協助其他行政機關他們有一些工作的部分我們現在統計起來大概有229項那這個部分我們盡量在行政程序法這個部分請其他的機關在他們自己的權力方面他們可以自行來執行可以減少警力的這些相關的執行什麼時候能夠提出來?"},{"start":16798.278,"end":16823.557,"text":"你身為警察的大家長當然你可能還跟其他署就職之後就交代行政組是屬於職務協助秘書室是屬於勤業務那也有請準備召開一次會議那現在我有經濟我要檢查檢查那天我就把那些那個什麼檢證工作在出發什麼機電零我就把它廢掉了就回歸一般的"},{"start":16823.977,"end":16830.42,"text":"那現在這些經典的工作我在8月1號以前會整個全部把它提出來8月1號還要兩個月的時間對會去做盤點好署長本席為什麼會特別講兩個部分第一你剛剛講到打造沒有錯我自己在第一線跟基層同仁員警我還看到署長我看到分局長他都還要不厭其煩的利用每一次參會時間上台致詞的時候"},{"start":16848.908,"end":16850.39,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":16868.712,"end":16869.693,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":16882.483,"end":16904.071,"text":"甚至之前我們有聽到我們的基層同仁還有講說我們上面交辦下來要求我們第一線的遠景同仁去找網紅去找有線電視去找不用錢的宣傳來去做反詐騙的宣傳我們這部分已經都把它精簡了"},{"start":16907.335,"end":16912.121,"text":"本期就是要講到這一些部分這一些真的就是老民啊我們甚至有那個員警來直接跟我反應是說"},{"start":16922.575,"end":16922.796,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":16938.777,"end":16960.509,"text":"我跟委員報告就是對於這些宣導部分確實在我們的同仁增加很多的這些工作負擔那我覺得檢察工作就是要專責去做查集嘛那這部分我已經第上任之後就是要做精檢就精準的而已所以現在全國的我們警察都知道了嗎?全國都知道公文已經下去了那第二專案的部分"},{"start":16963.09,"end":16990.251,"text":"你剛剛有講到很多專案啊對這很像是我們之前一直質疑民進黨政府啊什麼都要搞辦公室什麼都要搞國家隊那辦公室搞了三十幾個國家隊搞了十幾個那變成是所有都是辦公室所有都是國家隊但這跌床架屋啊照理講我們中華民國政府本來就有相關的相關的業務各部會各失其職那一樣的道理啊你剛剛提到的專案"},{"start":16990.791,"end":17016.36,"text":"有什麼打詐專案、掃黑專案、防堵專案這些專案嘛對不對?那我們實際上講這些專案回過頭來這本來就是業務啊那為什麼要一個一個專案成立之後反而造成是所有的員警同仁就為了一個又一個專案好像所有的署長或說所有的上面長官覺得說我不多設幾個專案就沒有辦法凸顯我的偉大或說沒有辦法凸顯我的效率"},{"start":17017.529,"end":17041.121,"text":"蘇長現在有多少專案你可以精簡多少以及是不是可以保留真真正正讓警務同仁回歸到專業跟回歸到業務我現在的主架構就是黑金槍獨炸黑金槍獨炸這主架構那為什麼會有做精準的我就是要統合全國的力量他們盤點出來因為有一些是遊動性的"},{"start":17042.242,"end":17042.362,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":17061.633,"end":17087.246,"text":"黑金槍毒詐黑道幫派黑道幫派我是說現在原本你上任那你現在是只要限縮在這五個層面對這個治安的部分就是黑金槍毒詐這五個架構好如果說專案的話大概就會從這裡面來做做應令現在實施的這個譬如講現在全民現在大概心裡面最痛苦的就是打詐我現在所要上任的就是要打詐所以"},{"start":17088.306,"end":17116.599,"text":"我希望現在打造司法現在在院裡面希望能夠趕快通過讓我們有一個源頭從源頭來做管理源頭那邊阻止了我相信可以阻止80%的這個被受騙署長源頭管理這是本期過去也一直強調的甚至我們最近辦公室也接獲到另外一種新型態的網路詐騙以前網路詐騙是一夜市廣告對不對本辦公室最近收到一個最新型態的我也會再"},{"start":17117.719,"end":17121.241,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":17147.739,"end":17155.505,"text":"條文及法制及法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":17170.217,"end":17171.958,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":17190.808,"end":17218.901,"text":"包括有蘇發部、經管會、通常會、蘇發部還有法務部剛剛委員所講的那個源頭那個部應該都在蘇發部而且我們已經多密集在互相合作會從源頭端那邊做身份上的確認或者是在國外公司要在台灣要有這些落地的這些法律的代表人未來這個法通過之後我想應該是會有很大的助益署長你放心啦"},{"start":17219.661,"end":17236.917,"text":"該訂速發布的我一定會訂的比你更兇啦但我只要拜託署長你身為警察的大家長一定要幫我們把所有警察的權益給保障好沒問題精簡業務讓警察同仁回歸到本職這才是本職希望看到的好嗎謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝那接下來我們請吳思堯委員請進來"},{"start":17253.76,"end":17276.068,"text":"謝謝主席。想要請馬次長、張次長、李副人事長、然後署長也一起喔。既然來了,回到你們的問題,你們就主動回答。我是很想替他們爭取一下,大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有,實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下,讓他們用個餐。好不好,我替他們爭取一下福利。這麼多議事工作人員,大家都辛苦。好,來。"},{"start":17279.522,"end":17300.178,"text":"我想任何一個退休金的制度都是要世世代代領得到長長久久領到老任何一個退休金制度的設計都應當如此所以當我們換算到把它勢比到國家的退休金制度就應當如此嘛"},{"start":17300.999,"end":17323.09,"text":"不論誰執政基金都要永續都要穩定就是不論誰執政的歷史責任因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁不論是軍公教警消醫護都要一致所以在2017、2018我擔任立委的第一屆"},{"start":17324.551,"end":17353.869,"text":"我真的是在面對年改的那個那種社會的一個很大的分歧但是社會在歷經了討論之後我們好不容易擁有改革的成果所以年金改革不走回頭路世代正義絕對不能開倒車下一頁照顧公務人員用數字來說實話蔡英文總統的任內是做最多的"},{"start":17355.211,"end":17369.646,"text":"條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":17372.128,"end":17385.299,"text":"最照顧公務人員我在講不論軍公教警消醫護等等我們都努力做更多做更好就以實質的條型來講這沒有錯嘛對不對次長好下一頁"},{"start":17386.755,"end":17405.223,"text":"那署長在這裡哈針對警消這幾年來我們也是努力做更多做更好四個面向對於薪資與津貼的調整不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路的員警的每月薪資跟外勤薪資都調升"},{"start":17406.724,"end":17430.992,"text":"在緊勤加擠在重要的勤務獎勵金乃至於超勤加班費我們都努力調漲嘛在薪資跟今天的調整署長我沒有說錯嘛對不對第二大面向醫療與健康保障正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金我們已經補助了5945案合法了1億5"},{"start":17436.414,"end":17440.277,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":17459.389,"end":17485.822,"text":"也都努力來照顧警消。」我這四大面向的整理請問次長、署長我都沒說不對嘛所以不要因為今天對於退休警消人員的修法有過沒有過來對於不同意見的委員們冠上帽子說你沒來聽這條你就是沒照顧我們的警察人員或是消防人員我覺得這樣不對"},{"start":17487.023,"end":17497.437,"text":"我們橫憑的來看蔡英文政府停警消四大面向我們真的努力做更多做更好我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述"},{"start":17499.781,"end":17517.126,"text":"所以年改不走回頭路我是真的認為國民黨有11個版本的委員提案真的是恐怕走上倒行逆施反年改反進步摧毀我們正向的改革成果我歸納了三大理由第一個"},{"start":17518.393,"end":17542.04,"text":"大家適用同一個基金同一種繳費的基準退府的制度就應當一致這才是公平第二大理由確保基金的永續除了要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員這才是真正的正義"},{"start":17543.22,"end":17564.948,"text":"第三個這個會期我真的很遺憾一再的看到在野黨委員康國家之愷提出了違反第憲法第70條或是違反大法官釋字391號的解釋也一再的提出違反財政紀律法第五條第七條的授權立法委員不能為增加預算之決議提案"},{"start":17566.008,"end":17587.724,"text":"如果你要提升也應當載明他合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法2019年新頒布的所以我這三大反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納的理由請問我還有沒有遺漏的"},{"start":17590.05,"end":17615.543,"text":"報告委員委員掌握的資訊非常的正確那麼我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析好那我進入條文來論述下一頁這個是當年2017年我們在對社會論述排除萬難做到了年金改革因為連馬英九前總統都說年改今天不做明天就會後悔我們基於國人平均壽命的延長年輕人的負擔更重所以要改"},{"start":17616.323,"end":17642.711,"text":"基於各項退休基金的收支失衡破產在即所以要改基於年金的給付不一致各類人員的保障水平參差不齊所以我們要改改的一個最重要的目標就是落實世代正義這是當年的論述當年的主張我們克服萬難去做年金改革下一頁好我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果"},{"start":17644.045,"end":17660.299,"text":"提升基金的運作永續性上來看,竟然退府制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮。教育人員的退休制度從原本119年可能會有破產之餘,我們因為改革了,它延後到133年。"},{"start":17662.04,"end":17673.176,"text":"公務人員退休的撫恤金的基金原本120年就可能破產我們讓他延後到135年對不對我的數字都正確嗎如果我有錯誤你們隨時反質詢沒有問題OK嗎"},{"start":17677.102,"end":17678.603,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":17696.757,"end":17719.308,"text":"對對那那是因為一二年的個人專務制所以提早到一百三十五年好現在政府也努力依法在撥補所以我們還是希望目標一百四十年好謝謝您的指正我不會覺得是反質詢你反質詢的好立委講不對你就要來更正下一個呢剛剛是基金的永續的年限第二個就是實質因為我們"},{"start":17722.219,"end":17744.356,"text":"做了改革可以挹注於基金的金額來看居然退府制度增加了633億的撥補教育人員增加了998億公務人員退休增加了803億合計我們因為年改實質的減緩政府財政壓力來有效挹注我們的退府基金高達2434億至今我的數字正確嗎還是更多來歡迎反諮詢"},{"start":17751.718,"end":17760.72,"text":"兩千六百七十四億很好二六七四億謝謝你的反質詢讓我有更新update的機會好下一頁所以來看看臺灣因為年改我們有實質的基金的永續年限以及我們基金的挹注財源剛剛到了兩千六百七十四億嘛很好"},{"start":17778.763,"end":17795.689,"text":"即便我們改了,我們砍了部分的退休金但是實質上跟國際比一比臺灣的實質所得替代率仍遠高於OECD國家的平均我這是2022年OECD國家的平均的所得替代率是61.4%但是臺灣以2022年的所得替代率年改之後的已經砍了"},{"start":17803.071,"end":17817.509,"text":"還是高達69.23%我們高於OECD國家8%代表臺灣的退休公務人員政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員比國際都還努力做更多。"},{"start":17818.581,"end":17838.412,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法"},{"start":17847.779,"end":17867.495,"text":"公務人員之間的不公平。」下一頁因為現在他如果停了而且甚至增加他的所得替代率會增加我們的退府支出減少收入所以年長連改一場空加速基金被掏空跟破產在野黨能負責嗎我今天很謝謝看到我們全序部的最新資料是說"},{"start":17868.135,"end":17883.899,"text":"如果提高了這個修法過了的話平均以35年的年資來計的話只要10到15年後每年增加20億20到29年後增加每年40億30年後每年增加60億對不對這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛Right歡迎反諮詢"},{"start":17891.158,"end":17915.284,"text":"報委員,剛才黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算。在我們昨天晚上也連夜就我們現在可以去做推估。原來我們講的每年15億的那個減少挹注的部分,如果用50年精算跟他現在警消站的這個挹注的比例在23%,這樣算下來50年"},{"start":17919.205,"end":17925.85,"text":"這個差距會是1080億1080億1080億這50年的天哪那趕快把這個正確數字送達到每一個委員手下1080億天哪這是多大的一個破口"},{"start":17939.199,"end":17939.9,"text":"一）委員我還發現一個問題"},{"start":17955.198,"end":17982.749,"text":"現在呢修法的版本要把原本是用公務人員退休之前撫恤法的這個抽出用警察人員人事條例來訂定但是他提高了這個所得替代率到95或90但是連同每年十年要累累減的那個反而沒有放進來對不對所以這個是法律只抄半套這是另外一個不公平不正義我要提出來再下一個"},{"start":17983.789,"end":17990.755,"text":"而我看到我們原本的退休金彈性調整的機制原本就已經入法了。針對消費者物價指數累計成長率達政府百分之五的時候每四年要引以檢討來擴大我們配合物價定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革"},{"start":18001.503,"end":18007.728,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":18026.661,"end":18043.895,"text":"如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1080億天哪如果年金破產了在野黨能負責嗎提案的委員能負責嗎所以我再次論述三大反對的理由同意基金同意繳費標準退府的制度應當一致才是公平"},{"start":18044.435,"end":18053.099,"text":"我們要確保基金有序不只要照顧退休的警校更要兼顧現役的警校這才是真正的正義最後一項不要再提這種違反憲法違反財政紀律法的法案了這是會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序謝謝我們繼續努力我們持續論述"},{"start":18066.425,"end":18089.137,"text":"也許我們是少數也許會被強行通過但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄我相信社會大眾是站在爭理站在公平正義的一方大家加油謝謝謝主席謝謝委員接下來我們請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員下一位我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":18101.122,"end":18127.653,"text":"謝謝主席,楊全發言,邀請署長。你看到今天所有藍綠白委員的這個發言,以及社會大眾的一個聲音,你心裡做何感想?每個委員的發言我都尊重,尊重委員的發言。"},{"start":18129.855,"end":18135.176,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三三十五條條文修正草案案 案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具"},{"start":18151.941,"end":18152.841,"text":"草案案件事條例〈警察人員人事條例〉"},{"start":18179.557,"end":18204.477,"text":"努力了22年才將他的息率上限定在一萬九千元。如果以物價指數的一個調漲通膨的調漲這一萬九千元幾乎幾乎等於是沒漲是不是啊是不是如果說以現在的這個物價的狀況大概就是橫平了"},{"start":18205.87,"end":18211.114,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":18220.592,"end":18227.256,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第11會期"},{"start":18249.191,"end":18268.646,"text":"當時我們在努力爭取這個抄警津貼的時候經過了22年都沒有條22年之後才上線上線喔還不是你每一個人都拿得到的一萬九千元就如剛剛署長你所說的如果以目前的通膨它等於是平盤啊"},{"start":18270.114,"end":18274.337,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":18285.285,"end":18293.288,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":18310.731,"end":18331.269,"text":"本席就用這一點,22年這抄情津貼出生入死。22年終於讓政府看到上線抄情津貼就只有一萬九。所以我第三次說,如果以目前這個狀況,它等於是沒有加錢。我要請社會大眾看到"},{"start":18335.1,"end":18336.941,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":18361.243,"end":18361.424,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":18368.157,"end":18383.724,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":18398.459,"end":18398.941,"text":"都會被引誘。」"},{"start":18400.506,"end":18401.606,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":18429.206,"end":18430.306,"text":"五條條例修正三草案案"},{"start":18447.858,"end":18466.694,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制"},{"start":18474.181,"end":18477.523,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":18500.254,"end":18514.702,"text":"我希望新任的署長您有所作為您去盤點因為快要到了暑假您去盤點方案要怎麼做說明資料詳細給本席我們一定要保護這些孩子好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝楊委員下一位我們請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":18534.158,"end":18535.499,"text":"警察人員人事條例修正草案"},{"start":18556.872,"end":18557.512,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":18579.484,"end":18602.944,"text":"最近我們看到消防員在職期間的裝備和保障,他尚未有得到應該的標準。比如說2023年的屏東大火導致4名消防員殉職,上個月底新竹豪宅的大火,這裡面是沒有住民受傷或死亡,但是兩位消防弟兄卻殉職了。"},{"start":18603.504,"end":18603.624,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":18621.452,"end":18625.258,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":18638.976,"end":18640.237,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":18664.813,"end":18692.79,"text":"所以提升的這個裝備的標準還有這個完善的訓練的計劃甚至是心理健康的支持比如說我們剛剛提到的這些警消人員那他們的弟兄那因為很不幸的事故去世之後那怎麼樣對他們的家族遺族或者是他們的同事提供資源那這也是需要經費的那這不是只有一個部門不是警政署也不是只有內政部甚至衛福部都要提供介入所以我還是在強調齁"},{"start":18694.431,"end":18710.798,"text":"這不僅僅是對警察人員在職人員的個人權益的保障他是對整個社會的長期投資那如果我們要思考到整個社會的長期投資的話那是不是方方面面都必須要納入考量而不是只有退職人員而已還有限職的人員不知道這個部分"},{"start":18711.678,"end":18711.918,"text":"二）委員楊輝署長"},{"start":18741.898,"end":18745.22,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":18757.148,"end":18761.87,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11"},{"start":18779.355,"end":18781.276,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":18807.631,"end":18807.771,"text":"二）委員馬瑪次長"},{"start":18820.888,"end":18839.846,"text":"委員好 次長好 那次長過去在學術界的時候應該是常去美國的一些疾難相關的特別是疾難救助相關的這些部門來去取經 那想說次長現在就任之後是不是有相關的規劃讓我們的警消人員特別是消防人員能夠有更完整的這樣子的訓練"},{"start":18841.247,"end":18862.806,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前採取兩個方式一個就是說我們有持續邀請美國的教官到台灣來針對我們現在警消在戰技戰術上面的一些訓練那在進行那這個部分在消防署的訓練中心跟警政署都有在進行那第二塊就是說我們有安排到美國的包括他們的消防單位"},{"start":18863.607,"end":18865.309,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":18879.281,"end":18905.775,"text":"我們這個部分細節部分可能我們會後跟我沒關係我會後再講但是我是希望說他能夠制度化那他能夠再擴大因為現在包含我看到我們的國防部門還有我們的這一個內政那都有進去美國來做完整的訓練那我們希望在消防的部分除了美國的教練來台之外我是希望說能夠有更多這樣子的做法那這個量能都要把它加大好的謝謝謝謝委員支持"},{"start":18911.393,"end":18932.639,"text":"接下來請謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、鄭鄭泉委員、鄭鄭泉委員、鄭鄭泉委員、陳英委員、陳英委員、陳英委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員、傅坤祺委員"},{"start":18934.486,"end":18947.9,"text":"所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢,詢答結束。委員質詢時有要求提供的相關資料或已書面答覆者,請相關機關請速送交個別委員跟本聯席會。"},{"start":18949.793,"end":18972.764,"text":"那委員楊耀李燕秀所提書面質詢列入紀錄貪婪公報並且相關機關以書面答覆那我們現在先進行討論事項我們先請議事人員提案宣讀提案條文那宣讀時間大約為7分鐘那之後我們留20分鐘讓各位用餐"},{"start":18976.777,"end":18996.746,"text":"對因為都聽到現在謝謝謝謝謝謝幾位委員的體諒好那我們休息後就是宣讀時間7分鐘然後我們20分鐘讓大家用餐宣讀後我們就對對對對對宣讀時間都可以好那所以我們這樣算一下2點2點15"},{"start":19010.254,"end":19030.918,"text":"警察人員人事條例委員鄭天才等提案第7條除序文中如左修正為如下外其餘未修正。第10條除第一項序文中左列修正為下列外其餘未修正。第11條及第12條除第一項序文中如左均修正為如下外其餘均未修正。"},{"start":19031.898,"end":19049.368,"text":"第15條除序文中左列修正為下列外其餘未修正。第16條、第21條、第23條及第34條除序文中如左均修正為如下外其餘均未修正。委員蘇清泉等提案第35條"},{"start":19050.905,"end":19068.53,"text":"除將第一項續文第一款及第二款條文中公務人員退休法均修正為公務人員退休之前撫恤法令增訂第四款及第五款為四警察消防及海巡人員之每月"},{"start":19069.17,"end":19082.247,"text":"退休所得其所得替代率依本條例之規定辦理如附表三其服務年資滿15年者替代率為45%其後每增加一年替代率增給2%"},{"start":19084.309,"end":19109,"text":"最高採記40年並以90%為上限五．本法公布施行前退休生效者應按本法公布施行實現值同等級人員之待遇標準重新計算每月退休所得並隨在值同等級人員本年供奉之調整而調整令附表三如後付其餘未修正"},{"start":19110.472,"end":19131.188,"text":"委員萬美玲等提案第三十五條對照委員蘇清泉等提案,除第一項第四款手具修正為警察人員之每月退休所得,另附表三如後附其餘同委員蘇清泉等提案,委員謝龍介等提案第三十五條對照委員蘇清泉等提案,除第一項序文中左列修正為下列,"},{"start":19131.969,"end":19153.958,"text":"第四款條文中如附表三修正為附表三如字刪除,莫具中百分之九十修正為百分之九十五。第五款條文中本法均修正為本條例,第二句莫每月退休所得分號修正為月退休所得逗號,另附表三如後附其餘同委員蘇清泉等提案。"},{"start":19154.818,"end":19167.08,"text":"委員王宏輝等29人提案第三十五條對照委員蘇清泉等提案,除序文中所列修正為下列,附表三如後附外其餘通委員蘇清泉等提案。"},{"start":19169.52,"end":19185.896,"text":"委員丁學忠等提案第三十五條對照委員王洪威等29人提案,除第一項第四款前二具合併修正為警察人員之月退休所得替代率照附表三所定替代率計算,末具中90%修正為95%。"},{"start":19188.999,"end":19199.742,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":19216.027,"end":19220.643,"text":"另附表三如後附其餘同委王宏威等29人提案。"},{"start":19222.796,"end":19248.794,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案第三十五條同委員謝龍介等提案附表三如後附．委員林思明等提案第三十五條對照委員王宏威等29人提案除第1項第4款手具修正為警察消防及海岸巡防機關之警察人員之每月退休所得第二句末如附表三修正為附表三如字刪除"},{"start":19249.895,"end":19274.27,"text":"第五款條文中本法均修正為本條例另附表三如後附其餘同委員王洪威等29人提案。委員吳立華等提案第35條除第一項序文中左列修正為下列第一款及第二款條文中公務人員退休法均修正為公務人員退休之前輔續法其餘未修正"},{"start":19275.251,"end":19294.263,"text":"委員王宏威等18人提案對照委員王宏威等29人提案除第一項第四款手具修正為警察、消防、海巡、移民及空中勤務總隊人員之每月退休所得另附表三如後附七日通委員王宏威等29人提案"},{"start":19295.323,"end":19311.617,"text":"委員遊浩等提案第三十五條對照委員王宏威等29人提案,除第一項第四款手具修正為警察人員及消防海巡移民機關支領危險職務加給人員之每月退休所得。"},{"start":19312.498,"end":19328.013,"text":"第五款首具具首的本法公佈修正為前款人員與本條例修正第二具中的本法公佈修正為本條例修正訂附表三如後附其餘同委員王洪威等29人提案"},{"start":19329.114,"end":19355.035,"text":"委員張志倫等提案第三十五條對照委員王宏威等29人提案除第一項第四款手具修正為警察消防海巡及移民人員之每月退休所得第五款條文中本法均修正為本條例另附表三如後附其御同委員王宏威等29人提案。委員鄭天才等提案第三十六條"},{"start":19356.519,"end":19372.18,"text":"除第一項續文中左列修正為下列公務人員復續法修正為公務人員退休之前復續法外其餘未修正（委員吳麗華等提案第36條同委員鄭天才等提案宣讀完畢。"},{"start":21149.597,"end":21176.692,"text":"提案條文已經宣讀完畢（現在進行討論事項（併案審查委員蘇清泉等27人擬具警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案等12案。本案業經上午巡打各委員我們是否仍需要進行大體討論?請大家表示意見。"},{"start":21180.424,"end":21180.524,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":21186.764,"end":21188.405,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":21212.573,"end":21236.885,"text":"條文及其他退休後的其他公務員在平均移民的部分是不是在統計上有顯著差別?能不能請哪一位幫我們做一個說明一下?來請先機關好請說明好謝謝張偉謝謝各位委員那這個平均移民的部分喔因為之前這個"},{"start":21239.755,"end":21242.557,"text":"二）委員佑裕蘭等19人擬具〈警察人員事條例修正三草案案〉案。"},{"start":21265.512,"end":21270.194,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":21286.923,"end":21310.555,"text":"其實沒有什麼太大的差別就是目前的我們的資料的顯示是這樣那一般公務員這個平均餘命會比警察人員稍微稍微長一點大概多一點多歲大概多一點多歲請問是在職期間的還是退休後的是退休後的因為他的風險就是在在職期間"},{"start":21312.386,"end":21336.253,"text":"所以的確警察消防人員在職人員以在職人員作為一個統計所以我們早上也一直報告說在職期間他真的是他的風險因素都是在在職期間退休後就跟其他公務員沒有顯出差異跟全國人民的平均移民也沒有顯出差異對沒有顯出差異好謝謝這個資料我們如果委員會需要的話我們可以再送過來"},{"start":21337.073,"end":21340.514,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":21367.621,"end":21389.082,"text":"首先我開始,總共有排序有九,主要是文字的修正。那我們現在開始審查排序一的第七條,請問各位就第七條的部分有無意見?都是文字,看大家有沒有...一個如左可能如下嘛。"},{"start":21390.882,"end":21392.504,"text":"第10條請問各位委員有沒有異議?"},{"start":21409.104,"end":21435.099,"text":"好沒有我們就招案通過那排序三第十一條請問各位委員有無異議沒有好那就招案通過排序四第十二條請問各位委員有沒有異議沒有好沒有就招案通過排序五第十五條請問各位委員有沒有異議沒有好沒有就招案通過那排序六第十六條請問各位委員有沒有異議沒有"},{"start":21436.581,"end":21457.182,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":21465.15,"end":21479.559,"text":"接下來我們審查排序10第35條及增訂附表三提案人有蘇清泉委員等27人提案委員萬美玲等19人提案"},{"start":21480.419,"end":21489.546,"text":"委員謝龍介等19人擬具委員王宏威等29人擬具委員丁學忠等17人擬具委員顏寬恆等20人擬具委員鄭天才等18人擬具委員林詩敏等23人擬具"},{"start":21496.832,"end":21512.396,"text":"委員吳立華等16人提案。委員王宏威等18人提案。委員游浩等38人提案。委員張志倫等17人提案。請問各位委員就本條文有無意見要補充?無效委員"},{"start":21516.448,"end":21519.689,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":21533.592,"end":21560.509,"text":"草案案的上限是定為95%然後另外的九個版本是定90%那這些版本對於這個所得地貸率的提高那其實都是溢出了原本我們在年改時候的這個定的上限那也經過財務的試算如果我剛剛早上從這個權序部得到一個最新的訊息就是說如果"},{"start":21562.13,"end":21588.929,"text":"這個照這個版本修了的話五十年內會減少對於退府基金的挹注高達1080億所以這個在財源上我們希望他是一個永續的基金能夠真正的來照顧各個世代的警消人員所以照顧退休的警消人員已經含困在上一次的年改裡頭那我們依依非常充分的討論而達到上一次年改的成果這幾年來"},{"start":21590.57,"end":21606.389,"text":"確實因為年改的上路那有效的挹注了基金的破口也有效的去延展了基金永續的年限所以已經看到一個改革的正向的目標所以基於一個公正基於一個正義"},{"start":21607.31,"end":21620.123,"text":"也對於其他的公務人員大家橫平性的思考所以我是認為這個三十五條的條文裡頭我都個人是希望能夠來維持原來的條文這是我的意見謝謝"},{"start":21626.107,"end":21650.541,"text":"一條其實我早上質詢的時候也有提出來那我認為有幾個很重要的啦就是我們現在提案要增加這個基金的支出但是這個基金的財務評估到底是如何我認為詮訊部還是要給一個非常明確的說明如果可以的話等一下希望請詮訊部再補充說明這個像是剛剛司法委員說的你們的數字如果是說接下來50年要增加1080億那"},{"start":21654.323,"end":21677.823,"text":"對那這個會真的是滋事體大那我認為這個其實年金改革走到現在一直都是大家對於世代正義應該是要有共識的那這樣子的修法下去造成的影響跟衝擊是不是也請全市部再次的說明是不是如果早上質詢的時候說的包括其他的危勞的人員是不是要一起討論"},{"start":21678.604,"end":21695.558,"text":"以及對於現職的警察還有其他類型的公務人員是不是有衝擊?尤其是2023年7月以後調整為個人專務制的最新的年輕的警察是不是反而沒有照顧到他們了呢?"},{"start":21696.298,"end":21706.083,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":21716.207,"end":21735.408,"text":"所得替代率的上限,就是如果只修一半的話那這個單獨修過去是不是也沒有太大的意義呢那我最後還是想要補充一下啦就是我認為最重要還是世代正義對於現值的這些警消人員我們希望給予他們最大的保障那權益一定要越來越好"},{"start":21736.209,"end":21756.259,"text":"那一定要照顧到世代正義而不是說我們在這邊把這個水庫開了一個洞之後變成影響到其他類型的公務人員以及現職的年輕警察的權益希望可以大家再平衡來做思考以上謝謝謝謝黃婕委員那我們是否請全序部先就黃婕委員剛剛的問題說明"},{"start":21760.017,"end":21781.734,"text":"謝謝章偉、謝謝各位委員我們早上報告的大概是這個是我們以現有能力做初估的一個狀態所以早上黃國昌委員希望說我們能夠再做精算不過精算還涉及這個精算要有時間我們過去精算大概都半年的時間"},{"start":21783.115,"end":21787.118,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":21805.171,"end":21805.331,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":21821.767,"end":21845.718,"text":"警察人員他現在這個挹注的經費就是占全體公務人員大概23%他人數大概占21%他挹注經費的比例大概23%那如果用50年的精算這樣算下來是50年會有1080億這是我們粗估當然這個精算也更精確"},{"start":21847.659,"end":21853.763,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":21869.654,"end":21892.819,"text":"用近三年平均因為現在警察退休的人數其實很穩定大概每一年大概都在大概平均差不多1600人左右就是每一年的退休警察的人數大概差不多1600人左右然後他我們如果用這個56歲然後他的平均餘命就我們剛才報告的那個資料29年"},{"start":21895.92,"end":21898.701,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":21915.31,"end":21942.929,"text":"第十到第十九年,他是累加的,是會越來越多,就是十到十九年是每年大概二十億,二十到二十九年每年大概要增加四十億,那未來第三十年以後大概每年大概會超過六十億,在目前這是我們初估的數字,那當然精算會更精確,以上跟各位委員報告。好,那個黃介委員他剛回答這樣可以嗎?可以,好,那我們接下來請謝龍介委員發言。"},{"start":21952.167,"end":21968.019,"text":"說實話,平均五十六個退休,移民還有二十九宗,那他們都要吃到八十五,平均有八十五個,你少到六成,那警察聽到大家都在吼,在撈白菜。"},{"start":21970.635,"end":21970.715,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":21993.686,"end":21993.886,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22020.689,"end":22021.649,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":22050.111,"end":22051.592,"text":"平均一檔二十億啦!一檔二十億啦!中華民國有算這八檔給八千幾億啦!對不對?是不是這樣?一檔二十億你說五十檔要差一千塊八十億你就要我們聽說一千塊八十億很多!不可以喔!不要這樣討論事情嘛!我們可以理性一檔多少、十檔多少"},{"start":22078.357,"end":22085.08,"text":"整個大水庫多,有同工同酬嗎?慢慢地蓋,這蓋了後面要照顧的人很多,專門大家都慶賀,很好,有時請我的帝國,吃撈,不然還可以請一個外國來購,不是說給他們大魚大肉。"},{"start":22103.43,"end":22113.68,"text":"人奉獻幾十年的過程中,他們不是特別辛苦我提案這要做嗎?他們說就像你們一樣朝九晚五每天在那裡找你們去,我給提案要做嗎?不是說你們都沒辛苦啊,大家都很辛苦。這裡的立委在這裡也沒有負責任,他們也很辛苦,不然我們會當警員。"},{"start":22130.818,"end":22149.093,"text":"這不用你證實啦 大家都知道啦討論這是給你精神 不過說給你精神 我也不反對啊精神要大家看到 都可以討論 所有理都可以說嘛你天然的用這個 你用這樣我就聽不下去了如果是說五十年啦 會差一千萬八十億"},{"start":22159.721,"end":22166.525,"text":"二）委員各位市長,如果聽說五十年差一千塊,一年差二十,比較沒有二十二億。一年差四十億,一千塊八十億,五十年二十億,就要好一千億。對不對?還有二十一億。你想想,有什麼行動跟碰到?"},{"start":22184.383,"end":22189.604,"text":"就是我們經濟在生長,執政黨給我們說白天每天都在生長都賺那麼多錢啊!啊你不可以這樣,以前當時在年紀的時候有可能不知道說我們的經濟在白天的生長這麼多啊!啊今天在生長這麼多,回頭來看說這違背這個信賴保護原則的,跟東西是不是切了太快,反倒提案是給你縮刻一個啊!"},{"start":22213.066,"end":22213.226,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22236.073,"end":22237.695,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":22251.616,"end":22272.016,"text":"法上是規定說到第五年要檢討那現在我們也檢討過檢討過之後呢我們也已經確定每一五年都會檢討啦所以這個整個財務上因為每三年就要精算一次嘛那精算的結果就我們就會照這個現在法的機制會去做檢討啦不是說定了以後就一定都沒去檢討啦"},{"start":22273.277,"end":22300.26,"text":"市長那這部分就麻煩你就依照那個委員還有黃國昌委員的意思就把對資金算的資料補過來那當然我早上聽到你講那個一千多億五十年未決案我是有點聽不下去那你不講一百年加上CPI然後三百三千億好了講那個沒有意思啦那接下來我們請那個莊委員因為他先舉手有莊委員發言謝謝謝謝市長還有各位同仁列席的官員我想我在這個地方啊"},{"start":22303.773,"end":22322.965,"text":"感情上我就不去再贅述了我想直接請教我們詮釋部大家現在在談說精算這是好事那以現在這個在黨朋友提出來這些版本來看的話是不是可以請問就是我們退府基金你從113年度這樣開始的話"},{"start":22327.048,"end":22327.088,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22349.81,"end":22365.493,"text":"如果說以我們現在看的第三十五條這樣來看的話我倒也發現一個問題啦你現在比如說我們今天整個警察人員這樣的一個人事條例這樣一通過以後它就變成一個特別法囉對不對那也就是說跟其他公務人員適用的版本又不一樣囉"},{"start":22373.857,"end":22397.391,"text":"那你整個退府制度你不覺得這樣子很奇怪嗎是不是把這個一順便講清楚精算的部分本來要修法你沒有把它你整個基金像我早上提過的你說繳費的標準大家都不變那你你這樣一把它一拉高以後那會變成"},{"start":22399.395,"end":22424.915,"text":"會不會讓外界會嘩然啊你像變成退役人員你就跟限職人員就又回復到等於年改前請一併答覆好那請先機關這邊做說明收支不足的話大概一百二十二左右這是比較新的警方一百二十二會收支不足那他沒答覆後"},{"start":22426.328,"end":22427.85,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":22441.38,"end":22458.924,"text":"警消當然剛剛有跟各位報告過嘛因為還沒有精算嘛那我們就講整體公務員的部分那我們現在最新的這個還出稿嘛還沒有這個還出稿我們最近一次的精算就是收支不足的年度會在122年然後這個用慶的年度會在134年"},{"start":22465.441,"end":22466.862,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":22490.535,"end":22491.656,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":22513.959,"end":22519.146,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":22526.749,"end":22526.789,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22552.102,"end":22552.482,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":22579.526,"end":22579.966,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":22608.936,"end":22608.976,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22630.776,"end":22631.616,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":22659.545,"end":22660.106,"text":"二）委員張秋遠等19人擬具"},{"start":22679.887,"end":22695.262,"text":"都是用本奉的兩倍來提繳基金。」這是一個公平的設計,就是你在此的時候繳多少錢。繳費的義務跟後面領取的權利,它是對等的。"},{"start":22695.919,"end":22696.059,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22722.387,"end":22740.265,"text":"如果把他變動某一部分的人不管是對其他的公務員還是對其他叫委老因為委老不是只有警察人員所以其他委老的人那還有一部分的人可能他還沒有報委老但是譬如像情報工作人員他還沒有報委老"},{"start":22741.505,"end":22741.946,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":22764.477,"end":22792.595,"text":"市長還是一樣就是麻煩你把精算的資料給大家那我想說這個是各位委員很需要那另外我也跟市長補充一個點我自己也是公務員出身除了本鳳之外還有超勤加緊專業加緊勤務津貼這些跟限職跟非限職本來就有一個差距你不要在那邊亂講說兩個什麼都一樣95%你不要去騙大家都公務員出身的不要講這種話好那下一位請羅志強委員發言然後蘇委員下一位"},{"start":22796.745,"end":22821.085,"text":"來一邊就好好說話那羅委員今天的現役警察就是明天的退休警察今天的退休警察就是昨天的現役警察我剛剛聽了很多一定要把現役跟退休做一個好像對立感的劃分我就是笑話一場抱歉我不客氣的講"},{"start":22823.254,"end":22848.03,"text":"我剛剛從這個中心大樓走過來這邊開會一路上就很多的警察同仁跟我說一聲謝謝我說你不要謝我是我謝謝你這些警察同仁都是現役的同仁他們未來都會變成退休的警察不然他為什麼今天對這個 因為他早上看了直播嘛"},{"start":22849.684,"end":22874.653,"text":"可是今天你一定要把現役跟退休做某種的對立出來那我告訴你這一個角度我是保持很大的意見第二個一年二十億就二十億就講清楚你一定要講說五十年一千億你不乾脆講五百年好了對不對五百年那就一兆啊不講得更恐怖一點"},{"start":22877.008,"end":22894.844,"text":"那你就是把實際上一年二十億講出來嘛那接下來我也要講,剛剛龍介兄也講了啊我在馬政府工作過啊那時候一年的預算政府預算這個一兆八一兆七左右去年請問我們這個年度的預算多少兩兆八啊政府花錢也沒有在手軟啊不過這也不是重點"},{"start":22902.915,"end":22920.356,"text":"重點是什麼?台電一年虧損四千多億你就撥補啊我要講說政府今天真的說你每個錢都用在刀口之上你就知道我們的錢都用在刀口上所以你今天退休的警察退休消防人員你們就單帶點吧是嗎?"},{"start":22924.06,"end":22947.714,"text":"我剛剛為什麼一直我們在追能源政策能源政策就是一個最大的浪費嘛先不講缺電問題你講不承認缺電沒關係他就是要浪費啊我還沒講超市我還沒講高端我還沒講快篩小吃店種種的浪費你跟我講一年二十億那還有再講下去嗎何沛山勞動部長怎麼講他遇到勞保就是撥補就是改革啊"},{"start":22949.104,"end":22968.913,"text":"二）委員老保也有破產問題也有虧損問題但他的撥補就是改革奇怪了到這邊今天就跟我講說我們的警察的同仁我們的消防的同仁我們所有的海巡的同仁空總的同仁移民署的同仁你們通通都擔待一點"},{"start":22971.141,"end":22971.321,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":22986.172,"end":22986.812,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":23002.299,"end":23028.068,"text":"被年改之刀砍上的人,到底砍的是對的?過重的?還是過輕的?這就今天我們在這邊要來開始討論的一件事情我還是要講啦,我知道全序部的立場,我不會怪你啦全序部有這個立場,這是正常的但我也就跟今天早上跟次長講嘛你的臉不要看著羅志強,眼睛不要看著羅志強你轉身看看後面那五個署長"},{"start":23029.847,"end":23056.041,"text":"這五個署長在講什麼我今天質詢第一個把五個署長叫上來問通通都支持為什麼他們代表的就是什麼他們代表就背後警察、消防、空總、移民跟海巡弟兄的心聲嘛那不要說今天我們看到警察、消防人員在看為我們的安全的時候甚至發生遺憾的時候我們大家都很遺憾在那邊去哀悼"},{"start":23057.403,"end":23073.255,"text":"然後今天公祭明天忘記但是遇到今天我們該給他應得我講是應得的喔應得就像今天我遇到警察的朋友跟我說謝謝我說你不要謝我啦是我要謝謝你啦真的是我要謝謝你們啦"},{"start":23074.855,"end":23075.275,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":23101.567,"end":23109.636,"text":"但是應該對我們的危險的前線的這些警消所有的同仁保持一個開放的心以上"},{"start":23111.021,"end":23136.643,"text":"好謝謝那我們下一位請蘇委員好謝謝主席那也謝謝在場所有同仁和政府部門人員大家都認真來討論這個議題我想其實社會上各行各業都有自己的職責也有自己的專長像警消就是保護著我們社會上每一個人的安全那立法委員呢就是本於職責在立法院這個國會最高殿堂用言語"},{"start":23137.484,"end":23159.433,"text":"我講的是真正的言語而不是肢體語言用言語來把立場互相論辯說明向全國人民報告之後爭取多數的支持所以不管你是要用論說文也好不管你是要用抒情文也好其實我想在立法院裡面113個委員每個人都是各種高手你要煽動情緒也可以你要論理說法我想每個人也都做得到"},{"start":23167.156,"end":23170.038,"text":"所以我想我們都同意了我們今天在討論的這一個法條它牽涉到了相當多社會上重要的人士也牽涉到了非常多世代不同所享有權益不同所以每個面向方方面面都要顧及到"},{"start":23186.127,"end":23195.155,"text":"因為我們也想走出去的時候我們是看到辛苦的警察辛苦的消防人員我可以跟他說一聲謝謝但是他也會跟我說一聲委員你在國會表現真的很好幫我守住了權益"},{"start":23202.802,"end":23225.617,"text":"也為國家整體的紀律守住了這一份秩序。」我想立法委員不是只有顧一個群體他顧的是國家面向所以我是國家的國會議員今天我們在這裡為難的就是這樣不然說真的任何一個人在座不管是立法委員或者是助理、議事人員、政府官員誰聽到為自己加薪減稅增福利誰不會拍手"},{"start":23230.373,"end":23239.918,"text":"加薪減稅增幅力每個人都想要啊我也是立法委員我也是一個職業我也只是零分薪水在這裡工作的人幫我加薪幫我減稅幫我增幅力難道不好嗎當然都好可是最後總要有一群人為每一個群體加起來的總狀況做一個把關和平衡所以我覺得剛剛有委員說得很好啊大水庫我感覺很對的啊來啦還記得要怎麼說現在水修"},{"start":23260.009,"end":23260.209,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":23280.911,"end":23281.111,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":23296.983,"end":23298.004,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":23314.045,"end":23319.61,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":23343.459,"end":23360.744,"text":"好謝謝主席那過去這個年改我相信這是多數民眾所期待的那當時也是經過立法院這個討論後才修正的那我們今天看到這第35條相關內容的再修正"},{"start":23362.079,"end":23378.491,"text":"或許我們照顧軍警消的部分這是政府當務之急也是責無旁貸必須要去做的一個重要的課題可是我相信每一個族群"},{"start":23380.325,"end":23399.639,"text":"身為一個政府應該都是要面面俱到才對那在這幾年齁我們台灣能夠在世界上呈現強而有力的這個經濟力尤其在疫情期間表現更是不俗這也可以講是台灣的一個另類的經濟奇蹟可是"},{"start":23403.568,"end":23428.307,"text":"現在可以這樣不代表說未來每一年都會是呈現這麼好的一個經濟狀況當然這麼好的經濟狀況一定是我們國人都是期待的可是這是未知數那所以我認為說我們在預算的這個蓋抓的時候應該是要有一個基準點既然這個年改大家能夠這個"},{"start":23431.52,"end":23450.789,"text":"改到現在應該是多數人在不能接受的情況下也都應該都已經接受了那你如果貿然的在對於這個條文再去做修正導致我們財政的狀況在這個額外的付出之後未來會不會因為"},{"start":23451.749,"end":23453.69,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":23470.707,"end":23495.629,"text":"這個他們應得的權益要永續我相信這也是我們立法院應該要做到的所以對於這個條文我希望說我們還是能夠三思因為這個簽一法動全身知識體大那對於每一個族群應該是要面面俱到比較好啦以上好謝謝那剛中委員先舉手是請中召委"},{"start":23496.787,"end":23520.924,"text":"好謝謝今天非常感謝我看到鄭天才委員的提案當中在我們前面大概12個條次的修正呢都是多虧鄭天才委員將裡面的文字做一個修訂那接下來從35條開始我們看到幾乎每一個委員的提案當中都有做一個文字上的修正就是將原條文的公務人員退休法改為公務人員退休資權撫恤法"},{"start":23522.705,"end":23551.311,"text":"那我們從這三十五條規定可以看得出來其實三十五條的核心就是以適用公務人員退休之前撫恤法之外我們在警察人員條例當中警察人員人事條例當中額外給予警察人員加強的我想這一點先續明三十五條的本意就是在有關於退休撫恤的事務上應該先以公務人員退休之前撫恤法為準那這當中呢我們在對警務人員加了三款"},{"start":23552.051,"end":23566.849,"text":"第一他的退休年齡可以作以降低第二他在執行勤務當中因為受到暴力或等等不堪勝任而必須退休的命令退休的他的因工傷病的給予他另外給他加以激訴"},{"start":23567.89,"end":23589.343,"text":"最後對於帶有勳章、獎章還加發給退休金。我想這原來三十五條原來這三項的規定其實呢那三款的規定他就要彰顯出警察人員他在所有的公文當中他有他的特殊性但是我們不要忘了今天我們後續其他委員每一個版本的條文他去調整的是什麼"},{"start":23590.223,"end":23617.856,"text":"調整的是退休後的所得替代率而這個所得替代率是在新制的公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中第37條跟38條這37條38條是所有的含警察人員消防人員在內所有人員一體適用的這裡面寫得很清楚他的所得的替代率以及他的所繳的給付標準以及他的費率大家都是一視同仁公平的去計算"},{"start":23618.576,"end":23639.52,"text":"所以如果大家真的覺得在經過精算之後我們特別針對警察人員要有別於其他的公務人員之外給予超過三十五條原條文當中那三款包括退休年齡提早包括說他的工商標準給予加發甚至坐在領有勳章的人得加發退休金等"},{"start":23639.94,"end":23643.004,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":23657.043,"end":23657.344,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案 案。"},{"start":23673.667,"end":23702.124,"text":"甚至擴及到包括海巡啊包括移民啊空勤等人員他們真的有在退休的前跟退休後他們有別於其他公務人員有需要額外照顧的我們把這個精算的金額拿出來然後呢回歸到我們就是之前年改後所重新新制的公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中的37條跟38條再來做更周延的規定這是以上本行的對於本次修法所給的一些意見"},{"start":23703.012,"end":23728.56,"text":"好那接下來我們請那個謝龍介委員當然要補充主席我建議那個處長他喔在下禮拜五以前把改算的資料送進來喔改算的資料其實大家手裡手裡都有啦你拿一份新的改算資料進來喔這以上跟本委員會建議"},{"start":23736.366,"end":23747.152,"text":"報告召委,我們剛才在討論的就是我們現在只能用概算的數字,但是我們沒辦法是用專業的精算去做出來,因為那個要時間。"},{"start":23750.743,"end":23773.13,"text":"我請他改算資料,我叫你整算,你整算你還要發包還要歸我,其實你內部中年依賴就都有了嘛,你找他管,你說我還好對不對?市長,我講群聚部那邊應該有一些相關的資料,那你們盡量把蓋算的資料補過來好不好?"},{"start":23782.529,"end":23787.166,"text":"審委員發言主席各位同仁"},{"start":23788.706,"end":23815.698,"text":"今天一整天我想在這個從巡達到現在這個大體討論大家有都有很多我想都有幾個共識第一個就是大家對於警察人員的辛勞、辛苦這個共識我想這個都有那也認為說應該要改善警察不管是現在的待遇或者是他們退休後的這個待遇這個大家都有共識這個也"},{"start":23817.619,"end":23818.6,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":23829.996,"end":23846.903,"text":"這不管主張要修法就今天要修法或是對於修法現在有疑慮的雙方大家都一樣就跟剛剛謝龍介委員所講的趕快就是不要說沒有精算連概算都沒有那沒有概算這個要在今天這樣子通過我想這個是"},{"start":23848.143,"end":23853.287,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":23872.142,"end":23893.754,"text":"連概算都沒有,這個部分我覺得也很難在今天做決定第三個公司就是說今天我們是針對警察、警消、海巡、空總、移民等單位的人員的退伏制度要來做調整"},{"start":23895.049,"end":23921.807,"text":"但是大家都知道這個其實這個年金這個退服的整個改革他一定是一定是整體的當時也很難你很難針對一個特定的職業別來做如果說我們都是個別的針對每一個職業別來做討論的最後的結果會變成每一個職業你很難立法委員每一個人都是都有民意基礎你很難說哪一個職業是不應該調整的你很難說哪一個職業是不辛苦的你很難說哪一個職業的這個調整是錯的"},{"start":23926.669,"end":23947.855,"text":"所以大家都知道他應該是一個整體的我們整體針對整個年金制度哪一些要修改因為我們知道現在也還是還有一些案子有一些公務員的這些相關的調整案子也還在只是還沒有排審查那如果我們今天說因為警察節到了我們今天排警察那現在是教師節到了排教師司法節到了排法官這樣子"},{"start":23948.695,"end":23949.216,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":23978.932,"end":23998.728,"text":"大水庫到底有多大那大家誰要來這個水庫要在哪裡開一個開一個水龍頭這個都都都一定一定一定是要用整體來來觀察了所以我簡單講就是說我見在這邊懇請說我們這個今天兩個委員會聯席的委員大家在是不是能夠讓這個這個這個問題我們至少等這個"},{"start":24002.751,"end":24006.412,"text":"三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":24032.864,"end":24054.596,"text":"好謝謝那請吳思耀委員發言好謝謝吳思耀第二次發言首先謝謝剛剛幾位在野黨的委員在發言的過程當中都聽到你們肯定蔡英文執政以來拼經濟的成果你們多次提到說因為拼經濟了稅收增加了可以有多的裁員這倒是很感謝你們的肯定"},{"start":24055.536,"end":24058.258,"text":"二）委員蘇巧慧等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正條例修正草案案．一）委員蘇巧慧等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正條例修正條例"},{"start":24071.61,"end":24088.247,"text":"所以說我們不能夠大家我也想當好人你也想當好人我想當散財童子你要散的比我多一點我們都要去自治跟去思考如果今天康了國家之慨某一個族群的人真的你為他擴大了福利"},{"start":24088.928,"end":24114.485,"text":"但是另外一個族群的人你卻去剝奪了他可能享有的福利所以我會一直提醒自己也許在提出某個議案的時候一群人來跟你拍拍手說感謝但是另外一群人我看不到的人可能正在惶惶不安正在期期以為不可所以我們唯一能做到的是盡可能的去兼顧橫平性"},{"start":24115.285,"end":24117.546,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":24138.951,"end":24146.854,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事條例修正條文及增訂附表三草案（事條例修正條文及增訂附表三草案（事條例"},{"start":24154.793,"end":24174.054,"text":"那我們都想要想方設法擴大對於警消同仁的照顧我向我質詢的時候四大面向對於薪資與經貼的調整對於醫療與健康的保障對於退休與福利的擴大以及對於勤務與安全的提升這幾年我們盡可能做更多做更好"},{"start":24175.302,"end":24203.521,"text":"但是我們要擴大對於退休警消的照顧在行有餘力之時更應當不要去蔑視了對於現役警消他們可能因此而蒙蒙受未來基金可能會破產的這樣的風險那當然還有一個今天不知道有沒有機會你們等一下主席總處有代表嗎加一個提案是不是違反了財政紀律法第五條跟第七條"},{"start":24205.841,"end":24211.542,"text":"提案立法委員透過法律提案增加政府支出必須要展明"},{"start":24212.895,"end":24222.922,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及"},{"start":24237.082,"end":24255.395,"text":"另外法律之間確實就本案也是有漢格的啊。剛剛委員都提到如果要修你單從這個我們的這個警察人員的人事條例三十五條來下手那你同時針對公務人員退休之前的撫恤法是不是要配套要改"},{"start":24256.135,"end":24279.925,"text":"甚至如果說國民黨委員是援引陸海空軍軍官士官服務役條例來修的話但是陸海空軍軍官士官服務役條例裡頭條文裡頭還有那個逐年遞減的那個表可是在修這個警察人事條例的時候又去忽略了那個要逐年遞減的那個試算這也形成另外一個更不公平"},{"start":24280.805,"end":24282.227,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":24303.228,"end":24327.228,"text":"最後又被推翻更合宜的時間你需要多少的時間能夠有一個起碼的不會失準的試算我是覺得龍介大哥剛剛講了一周我都覺得夠不夠但是前提是一定要有一個基本的試算否則沒有辦法討論我同意這件事情沒有一個試算的參考資料這個條文是沒有辦法被決定的"},{"start":24327.848,"end":24351.019,"text":"但是一周可以嗎?所以我綜合我說的我還是維持我第一次發言說的我認為維持現行的條文維持我們年改的成果就是去實踐世代正義我還是認為我保留對於這個修法的看法我希望維持現行條文但是如果要討論第一個你要試算的基礎但是一周提出來的東西是值得參考的嗎?"},{"start":24352.602,"end":24354.005,"text":"條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":24362.377,"end":24390.068,"text":"請次長回覆謝謝召委這的確也是因為早上我第一時間就會回覆黃國昌委員我們願意做精算的努力因為精算是一個比較精確的東西如果是粗估這一個禮拜我問過我的同仁當然就很粗有可能跟今天差異就不會太大"},{"start":24390.708,"end":24391.168,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":24413.713,"end":24419.876,"text":"三）委員韓國瑜等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案案案案案"},{"start":24438.344,"end":24463.584,"text":"全序部那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一張是什麼意思?那你今天這一"},{"start":24467.048,"end":24467.188,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":24489.425,"end":24518.096,"text":"時間太趕或沒有依據,我沒有辦法接受這樣嘛。瓜哥你不能這樣,是委員逼他一定要拿出一個東西,他一開始也說這個就是很粗很粗的,是委員逼他馬上拿出來啊。人家想辦法擠出委員想要看的東西,先要說人家給垃圾。這樣不公平啦。我跟你講齁,不然這樣啦,就是看那個謝委員他的意思怎麼樣嘛,謝龍介委員,因為每個委員都有自己表達意思的權利。瓜哥,因為我們不需要你精算啦。"},{"start":24519.397,"end":24536.018,"text":"大家都精算好幾年了,精算八九年了。我請你改善就是把你所有出來列出來,大家客觀來面對。所以我跟你說,下禮拜五以前提出來,你不用再去發包啦。你媽媽說不用再去發包,不用發包啦。"},{"start":24538.635,"end":24556.102,"text":"所以這是我的建議啦 因為不是說今天就安裝就安裝本來面對這個 大家有機械 有的怕傷害 屬實本來就是 政府把你機械聽啦公務人員 軍人 警察 大家都很辛苦啦 沒有人不辛苦的啦年輕人 世代我們也照顧 買房也補助租房 補助理事 也檢驗 都在照顧 再到一個族群我們不想要照顧"},{"start":24573.188,"end":24598.239,"text":"王委員主席,在此大家都想要解決問題,可以我所說的說,我希望大家都可以照顧,尤其現有的消防及檢察說實在的,我們都非常辛苦,尤其退休後,有可能生涯的規劃在幾天有減下去時,你要如何提高它"},{"start":24603.322,"end":24604.002,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":24618.755,"end":24620.196,"text":"二）委員辛平智豪等19人擬具"},{"start":24637.563,"end":24638.464,"text":"二）委員國家等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":24650.543,"end":24655.547,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三三草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":24679.087,"end":24679.787,"text":"說實在大家也想要照顧這是說是10億還是要幾百億?喔!那10億還要幾百億?"},{"start":24679.787,"end":24683.13,"text":"那就聽差一點啊!還是給50億出來?因為我相信全台灣退休的有很多啦!不是只有一個區域或一個縣市而已啦!因為全台灣的退休的人說實在會怕死人啊!以上"},{"start":24711.3,"end":24712.742,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":24726.56,"end":24726.96,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":24744.531,"end":24744.931,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":24761.466,"end":24762.086,"text":"二（委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":24785.218,"end":24787.419,"text":"條文及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":24802.157,"end":24818.073,"text":"三）委員麻煩你齁,雖然是概算齁,但是精確一點,還比較準一點,拜託齁,謝謝。主席,我說比較準一點啦,不要喊喊喊啦,比較準一點啦,提供我們的處理,比較準一點,這樣啦。"},{"start":24827.335,"end":24843.727,"text":"那個齁既然三個禮拜齁我因為實際上其實裡面不只是今天那個數字的部分我們還是再確認一下包括說今天所得替代率我看裡面版本有90%95%齁那包括說韓韓社的對象齁到底是警察"},{"start":24844.527,"end":24866.525,"text":"消防海巡空總還是說今天移民號那我覺得這些最好的狀況有那麼多版本我們就但大家今天既然各有各不同的意見是不是就請主席就保留就送協商好不好就保留送協商剛好協商期一個月你三個禮拜書記也到了那就可以到協商裡面來去做不是"},{"start":24871.391,"end":24871.511,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":24893.129,"end":24913.76,"text":"要繼續擇期再處理我們過去非常多的法案不是所有的法案就是一天處理完然後不管有沒有處理完有沒有共識就打包協商這件事情不是這樣處理的至強委員讓他繼續這個案子一個法案繼續討論第二次反正交委已經排案了他有排案權"},{"start":24914.821,"end":24931.298,"text":"所以比如說三週以後他可以三週以後有完這個會期到7月16再排一次再來就同一個議案繼續審查所以委員會都有繼續審查這才是正辦而不是沒有共識的就是送協商這事情姿勢體大"},{"start":24932.739,"end":24932.799,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":24962.381,"end":24967.605,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．一）委員"},{"start":24991.761,"end":25003.984,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第3次聯席會議．立法院第4次聯席會議．立法院第5次聯席會議．立法院第6次聯席會議．立法院第7次聯席會議．立法院第8次聯席會議．立法院第9次聯席會議．立法院第10次聯席會議．立法院第11次聯席會議．立法院第12次聯席會議�"},{"start":25019.355,"end":25023.697,"text":"王媛媛主席,在這裏我覺得聽起來沒有說很簡單,因為說起來這個所理和應用的人很多,我問問說,因為學生當中大家都知道法律,大家都知道要怎樣,這不是民進黨說的尊聖,也不是國民黨的"},{"start":25040.223,"end":25041.624,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":25054.281,"end":25077.577,"text":"因為現在的協商是跟三黨會同期而已,我們不會同期啦。再來每一個說話都有利,我們要怎麼去遮擋這個中間的問題出來啦。好不好?議長。好,那我現在先,我這邊先做決定啦,休息十分鐘,你們先協調。要休息啦。"},{"start":25078.755,"end":25078.795,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":26348.749,"end":26364.966,"text":"我們繼續開會那請問就本條部分還有大家有沒有表示什麼意見剛剛休息協商沒有共識就保留送協商好那省委員主席各位同仁這個"},{"start":26368.157,"end":26377.287,"text":"因為今天有內政委員會聯席有一些內政委員會的委員他們就不太習慣我們司法法制的氣氛為什麼這樣子劍拔弩張他講話從鼻孔出來了"},{"start":26383.391,"end":26400.733,"text":"但是其實你看我們這個司法法制委員會每一次都在幾乎我們真的有好好討論的法條在我們這裡通過委員會審查通過然後大家有共識的法條然後送到院會審查的有哪一個法幾乎沒有每一次"},{"start":26402.011,"end":26414.089,"text":"都是不討論然後就保留從這個上個月大家大打一架的那個國會擴權法案開始一路都是這樣子"},{"start":26416.101,"end":26440.639,"text":"其實本來如果說正常運作你說大家真的沒有公司在政黨協商裡面來協商本來如果說這樣子也是可以只是他當然是違反了我們過去大家一直主張的這個委員會中心主義本來這樣子也是可以但是問題是我們送去政黨協商的案子從沒有一個案子協商到時候協商的時候主席也是說大家來協商"},{"start":26441.619,"end":26469.89,"text":"協商一條說大家意見不同我們就全案保留再送院長協商院長協商的時候有協商嗎?又沒有協商啊就直接表決所以我們就知道說今天你們這樣子動員來表決說要保留送協商就是又要複製上次國會擴權法案同樣的手法你們一路一路這樣子就沒有協商嘴巴說協商但是其實都不會協商有時候連刑事都不做"},{"start":26471.533,"end":26498.331,"text":"所以我個人是認為說這個我希望說大家能夠從上個月的這個議事衝突裡面學到一點教訓一定要委員會中心主義我們一定要這樣破壞然後送協商然後協商的時候又不協商然後到院長主持協商的時候也不協商然後再來就直接院會表決這樣子攸關全國你這個不只是警察這個是牽涉到公務人員因為大家是同一個大水庫喔"},{"start":26499.605,"end":26511.96,"text":"有關公務人員的這個退府基金要這樣用同樣再用這種方式來通過嗎?這個請真的是請這個國民黨的委員要三思了"},{"start":26513.799,"end":26535.859,"text":"請胡思堯委員那下一位是因為剛剛有一些委員可能有其他的公盲還沒有到場所以我跟大家很快速的說一下我們剛剛進展到哪裡也就是說對於條文的部分剛剛討論參與討論的委員不管內政委員或司法法制委員我們都共同要求權敘部要提出一個盡可能"},{"start":26537.4,"end":26553.206,"text":"能夠參照的試算表,也就是現在通過了我們把警消拉到90%或95%的所得替代率的時候,那對於財政對於基金的破口造成的衝擊,那會是多少?"},{"start":26553.706,"end":26575.426,"text":"包括他會去加速破產的年限是到什麼時候所以大家都是希望有一個參照的版本才能夠作為條文繼續討論的依據這是剛剛的共識所以全序部原本是希望有更長的時間謝龍介委員主張一個禮拜就提出那我個人認為要一個月以上"},{"start":26577.648,"end":26578.649,"text":"條文修正條例三草案案案案案案案﹚三）委員"},{"start":26604.224,"end":26629.47,"text":"或民進黨我個人認為要維持原版本不要去破壞整個橫平性一致性所以說這個很清楚是需要在委員會再花時間討論的不要說沒有一個完整的討論參照就又要打包送協商再一次沒收了委員會中心主義那在這裡我也要跟羅志強委員報告志強委員還有龍介委員你們剛剛都在參與討論比較多的"},{"start":26634.131,"end":26638.555,"text":"上一次在2017年跟2018年的年改討論的幾次呢?2017討論公務人員的年改委員會討論了四次上次公務人員的年改法案在委員會討論的四次充分討論"},{"start":26653.379,"end":26669.998,"text":"教育人員也在委員會討論了兩次教育人員為什麼只討論兩次因為他多數是跟公務人員差不多所以教育人員就是討論兩次然後到軍人的時候2018年的時候同樣在委員會也討論了四次"},{"start":26672.785,"end":26699.712,"text":"所以這都讓我告訴我們年金改革姿勢體大今天怎麼會在司法法制委員會一次的討論事實上早上都在尋答我們一直尋答到下午兩點多兩點二十才進入條文的主條要用兩個小時不到的時間又要打包協商這是不對不負責任這又再一次只是要強行碾壓嗎"},{"start":26701.755,"end":26704.916,"text":"二）委員黃國昌等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員黃國昌等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":26729.907,"end":26744.434,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由．委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．事由．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":26755.816,"end":26784.816,"text":"一個小時四十分鐘的時間又要強行打包透過表決大家深思國民黨的委員要這樣處理嗎?民進黨認為這個條文就繼續keep在委員會因為需要一個試算表需要一個更進一步討論的餐具所以這個案子不應當強行打包協商而且是透過表決的方式我們再一次給社會看我們的立場是什麼好 謝謝那請那個謝龍介委員發言"},{"start":26792.603,"end":26802.967,"text":"學生就是說大家可以,我是提案人啦,我提案95%這是在提出問題嘛民進黨考考想想都說這八年來經濟不斷在成長改教育的人我們要教育嘛"},{"start":26812.566,"end":26833.813,"text":"你告訴我你沒有精算,如果這樣離空一千年,對不對?那時候是怎麼做的?你要抬的時候你也沒有精算嘛,都有嘛。所以我告訴你一星期,你是把計算拿出來就好,不然兩星期,現在當然說你三星期。拿來,合算是一個月的時間嘛。我提案說95%,"},{"start":26841.937,"end":26850.042,"text":"二）委員柯總召今天說不然我們賣95%（二）委員我們來抄80%（85%（對不對（這叫做協商嘛（在一個委員會收一個案不是去到政黨協商後去變經的（甚至最好一個再修正動議（李三督的時候（對不對（也都可以蓋啊（今天我不是跟你說這警察退休就是一吹風一月黑狗（"},{"start":26874.383,"end":26894.12,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1"},{"start":26902.472,"end":26904.534,"text":"二）委員佩契三明郎等19人擬具三草案案。"},{"start":26927.281,"end":26929.282,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":26956.96,"end":26978.63,"text":"一條高層的八層外翼的無神當然會覺得這個貼紙制度是不是要怎麼改?但新來的保護官職你沒可能啦,我們現在一併重新來檢討。所以貼案的精神,我今天從頭到尾都跟你說叫我貼案的要過,我可以來叫叫人、叫叫人手給過,不是嘛。"},{"start":26982.23,"end":26983.31,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":27012.523,"end":27039.263,"text":"你聽到沒有?但是警察的...你想想我來自台南各位你們如果在北部出身的不一定你們體位比較不高全台灣的警察就對了差不多都是混家人、藝人的為什麼?我們這裡很多紅頭主義要拍攝這裡所以來科技、來科警察"},{"start":27040.407,"end":27052.212,"text":"二）委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案．一）委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案．一．委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案．一．委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案案．一．委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條條文修正三草案案．一．委員佳克等19人擬具:「警察"},{"start":27066.052,"end":27075.196,"text":"我們有人是跟你講忠心悲心啦,我不是跟你講你這樣不對啦。你說全國社會來審,好啊,我也同意啊。麻吉手來手啦,兩條被告情約,我們就當保證告了。勞工這,退伍基金,若波普也是改革的一種啊。若搞警察,你們就不是波普,就像掛椅的肉來吃白人的大雞,對不對。"},{"start":27097.239,"end":27099.844,"text":"所以主張是這樣三個禮拜來提出來都要在合相的期間來"},{"start":27105.779,"end":27106.259,"text":"二）委員二）委員"},{"start":27134.799,"end":27136.5,"text":"蘇清泉委員有不斷提到我"},{"start":27163.146,"end":27172.556,"text":"那今天 大家都 內政委會可能比較不清楚啦齁司法法院有個特色 這什麼特色 婦婚期來了"},{"start":27173.376,"end":27174.817,"text":"二）委員黃文昌等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正條例修正條例》案。"},{"start":27197.028,"end":27197.148,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":27228.086,"end":27239.716,"text":"請各位在場委員,我講一句話你自己聽就好不要火燒連環產,這是你們慢性領悟那現在我們要國內扣錢改革要實現要實現"},{"start":27256.02,"end":27281.6,"text":"二）委員我們再有一個憲政原則來處理這沒有所謂的經濟承托力很好當然經濟承托力很好的話要用在什麼地方?那是國家的財政資源的分配當然是這個要回到什麼?這個沒有巧的空間啦我說白啦就是說什麼試算這是一個"},{"start":27283.684,"end":27294.235,"text":"現法七十條的中大原則已大法實現三九一中大原則。你不能預算的前提是在行政以前。"},{"start":27295.658,"end":27317.553,"text":"二）委員只有審查、審查一級的法律依算案依、法律案依算案、新能夠合案。二）委員沒有編列依算的權利。所以任何你提出有關於依算增加的,絕對是違憲。我從最一開始講就好了。所以這也沒有所謂的什麼,欸瓜你給我瞧瞧瞧瞧的,不可以的事情。現在不瞧的啦。現在沒辦法協商啦。現在不是說標高贏就贏啦。這是"},{"start":27324.417,"end":27349.663,"text":"我們是一個憲政體系的國家,司法自恃維持。請任是憲政機關,我們也是憲政機關,都要遵守憲法原則。所以這第一點,我大家請注意聽喔,國民黨你只要一直這樣搞的話,火燒聯席團啊,火燒聯席團,你自己注意,沒關係。你不相信的話,你不相信的話你自己再看著。"},{"start":27352.321,"end":27376.673,"text":"這個當然是底下,我們來看過去年輕改革。過去年輕改革的時候,小英總統為了年輕改革開了國事會議,大概一年多,然後再重新年輕改革。然後由相安部、前醫師部、教育部以及相安部會全部提出來,共同聯全部提年輕改革,三個年輕改革,包括軍人。"},{"start":27378.052,"end":27400.029,"text":"這好不容易提出來在這個場域就在這個地方從這個地方金門開了四次那嘉峪兩次郭文蓮四次記得當年在審查這個時候國務黨沒有提案他不敢提案因為再怎麼提都不對啊"},{"start":27401.363,"end":27416.52,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19執政委員所有開始年金改革但是後來有一次叫臨時會再開萬美玲等19覺得會得罪太多人要改的話會得罪很多人所以趕快把他包起來"},{"start":27418.74,"end":27429.695,"text":"參議院總統上臺以後從事所有改革,包括轉型、整理、年齡改革等等都有做。所以這個是一個,因為不只是社會爭議的問題,這個是包括憲政體制的問題,這個要嚴明再宣。"},{"start":27435.074,"end":27453.063,"text":"所以我們今天看2017的時候在大家這樣衝突包括半條裝飾等等所有衝突到最後改革完成那十四個藍白鄰居常常在匪憲亂政"},{"start":27454.929,"end":27467.533,"text":"自已提出來,現在要討好某類族群的人。警察人員人事條例有百分之百,也有九十幾人。大家都知道嘛。那竟然跟警察不一樣,警察是公務人員,要退休。"},{"start":27478.897,"end":27505.997,"text":"六十位退休,今年五十位選官選回去就一定要退所以有差別待遇今天我要談的就是這個一點我都知道大家都要做好人,我也想做好人啊但是好人不是那麼多啊你現在打在頭上做好人不可能嘛是不是這樣所以今天大家不要想說我要討好誰討好誰那這警察今天,警察一定在看啊"},{"start":27507.506,"end":27522.379,"text":"所以警察人員包括什麼包括海巡包括空警什麼都是啊大家都以為這樣今天一改國民黨的大德政但是實則是不可能的所以今天大家要想清楚"},{"start":27523.956,"end":27524.096,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":27544.11,"end":27572.964,"text":"然後現在又搞這個那以後公務人員比照警察警察比照警察比照金人這大家也會要欸但是這可能嗎整個整個你現在連改第1個國務黨期日連改法連改那再提這個下次又提公務人員比照警察那國家國家的財政是這樣搞的嗎絕對不對嘛所以大家請在先任體制以下請跟大法官試試三九一還有呢"},{"start":27574.105,"end":27580.037,"text":"條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":27581.195,"end":27608.166,"text":"是行政院的,你怎麼可能驗負代包?就好像胡云旗所提的那個所謂兩兆前面法案。他一人可以提兩兆,我也可以提一兆,然後放在心理科學園區。那執政,執政誰要負責?根本行政院就結束了嘛。所以這個是政黨政治一個很重要,而且民主先生提下的一個很重要的概念。所以今天有提出說什麼來試算啦。"},{"start":27611.481,"end":27631.003,"text":"來試算那時只是大家在這裡要給大家一個一個下台決議,絕對不可能啦誰敢去試算?這可以試算的啊所以希望你你頭腦不錯以後這個大家來瞧看來你以為民進黨會跟你在玩試算?不可能的事情"},{"start":27631.92,"end":27633.32,"text":"二）委員我今天來代表民進黨整個言論我負責"},{"start":27656.687,"end":27656.767,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":27684.447,"end":27696.456,"text":"三位都已經沒有休息了 叫誰比較好 叫誰比較好 他們都還想討論然後你要 叫接下來也沒有齁 那現在休息 陳一正來這裡會 妳是什麼人會"},{"start":27699.854,"end":27701.795,"text":"三）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":27725.64,"end":27727.361,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":27755.442,"end":27778.261,"text":"條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具、「警察人員人事條例修正草案案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具、「警察人員人事條例修正草案案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具、「警察人員人事條例修正草案案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具、「警察人員人事條例修正�"},{"start":27785.701,"end":27787.005,"text":"欸 董事長你不可以說那個是老幾老黨嗎?沒有民主"},{"start":27793.027,"end":27802.533,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":27823.227,"end":27842.525,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":27847.697,"end":27871.05,"text":"我永遠支持柯總召五點半還沒到那是不好要怕死這樣真的不好啦柯總召提三位不好啦真的拜託主席是三位提的主席回來討論啦不要再提三位了啦請主席回來討論大家討論嘛我討論啊請主席討論啊"},{"start":27875.659,"end":27876.38,"text":"二）委員三）委員三）委員"},{"start":27894.455,"end":27895.015,"text":"一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗一﹗"},{"start":27915.225,"end":27936.331,"text":"沒有啦 那個 那麼多怪債 那麼辛苦 也讓他有一點時間去找其他人好不好讓他成年他好了 好不好 這個神功特工隊 你們是神功特工隊 要演自殺的 政治沒有要演自殺 你們要演就去演吧"},{"start":27937.692,"end":27945.656,"text":"這為人民爭取權利我們叫做至上爭取應該有的權利叫做至上趕快尖叫機拿來一下陳玉珍來了他又來亂了趕快講話就是來亂的什麼叫我講話就是亂的沒有這事啊這個是兩件事情好不好"},{"start":27963.902,"end":27970.924,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":27993.018,"end":27996.802,"text":"二）委員王國昌等19人擬具一律不見盧格山丘等19人擬具一律不見盧格山丘等"},{"start":28024.053,"end":28024.593,"text":"二）委員誰?誰來?"},{"start":28054.52,"end":28072.269,"text":"副總召,那個謝龍介,我們今天是這些人跟你細語回首,以後你們進來緊緊錄音啊,然後一起拍節目,你還傻乎乎的以後我們還要跟你談什麼調整,因為我們最近經營人我們盤他咖的,你還假的啊,總召,總召"},{"start":28076.567,"end":28076.687,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":28092.813,"end":28093.593,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":28123.066,"end":28123.606,"text":"二）委員黃國昌等19人擬具"},{"start":28157.918,"end":28158.058,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":28467.725,"end":28468.526,"text":"條例修正三草案案"},{"start":28984.916,"end":29001.21,"text":"大會報告大會報告尤其停港白鐘停市民港白鐘 紅紅窗把他趕快找回來好不好 大會報告我們兩個集體自殺來 我們看這一幕台語叫無才港啦 我北部無才港啦"},{"start":29005.301,"end":29006.962,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":29035.57,"end":29039.473,"text":"連某水老還雄心萬丈,安靜維穩你知道嗎,騎馬才吃屎啦。"},{"start":29090.592,"end":29093.394,"text":"一年表決輸,表決贏也是輸啦,不要亂搞好不好。"},{"start":29123.933,"end":29129.03,"text":"二）委員佳琳等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":29192.681,"end":29198.924,"text":"當會報告當會報告黃昌不會來了十分鐘前發臉書沒來啦沒來啦自判概念啦沒啦他現在在臉書上宣布他投降啦"},{"start":29222.133,"end":29238.057,"text":"他要叫刑事部去示範,示範啊,示範概念啊。不然我現在來談一下憲法概念好不好,憲法教學。"},{"start":29251.854,"end":29254.316,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":29281.884,"end":29282.249,"text":"很適合欸"},{"start":29694.61,"end":29702.654,"text":"我也是這樣覺得,我們可以討論一下憲法,柯總長。我在日本也唸書,我是台大的呢。我不是在台灣讀四個嗎?是啊,中文系、法律系、輔系、雙學位。"},{"start":29717.664,"end":29722.868,"text":"後來我又去日本念書了日本唐寺沒剩鴨喔?都有去日本唐寺嗎?日本45年前在日本讀書啊不然我們來講文言文啊我記得說剛剛鄧小平來訪問日本"},{"start":29747.088,"end":29751.149,"text":"市長你講的很有智慧的話,兩岸的問題這一代沒有智慧解決,留給下一代。這個是有智慧的話?"},{"start":29797.853,"end":29822.592,"text":"自強兄協詢一下吧上次你那麼精神的在幫忙協詢你不都在協詢趙偉的嗎對不對繼續談啊繼續談這個我還是跟副總綱苦口婆心的表達一下啦其實幾位我們報告退伍制度的參與者都是這樣"},{"start":29823.942,"end":29836.1,"text":"我們目前在我看了一下我們的這個12個版本今天要審的12個版本啊扣除本當委員吳立華本身他處理的只是法條名稱的修正之外其他的"},{"start":29838.396,"end":29839.037,"text":"二）委員吳立華等19人擬具"},{"start":29856.113,"end":29874.63,"text":"公務人員退休法改成公務人員退休之前撫恤法依照新的條文名稱更正之外他沒有做其他內容的更正但是另外11個版本大概有10個委員提出那比較特別的是王委員宏威他一個人就提了兩個版本但是兩個版本他的所得替代率都是90%"},{"start":29875.831,"end":29889.747,"text":"不曉得為什麼要提兩個那另外呢提90%的有8個版本提95%的有3個版本那龍介你也是95%的啦那慘白說這些條文內容只有所得替代率的差別"},{"start":29890.728,"end":29901.919,"text":"那麼所得替代率是不是我們這邊從90或95倍面提高就可以啊?我跟大家分享一個齁,我們小時候常聽長輩在說啦。他說日本時代所有國民政府來台灣,那軍隊來了,沒看過現代化的水就水啦。"},{"start":29906.644,"end":29906.744,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":29925.014,"end":29949.711,"text":"所以我覺得目前看到這11個版本當中就是看到替代率想要提高就在警察人員人事條例當中安插一個水龍頭認為水太小把水龍頭的口徑放大以為這樣子所得替代率就能提高忽略了整個退伍制度必須回歸到公務人員退休之前撫恤法的規定當中這裡面今天大家願意看一下第二頁講得很好"},{"start":29950.572,"end":29969.569,"text":"他這裡面的原則包括權益又對等,撫恤基金永續經營,因此新制定的公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中的38條跟37條,他將所得的給付費率等等都一併計算。所以這裡奉勸我們這11個版本的創造者,雖然有時有10位委員,"},{"start":29970.47,"end":29979.978,"text":"如果真的要幫我們的警察人員提高他們退休後的經濟生活的給付的話還是奉勸回歸到正軌公務人員退休撫恤法當中"},{"start":29983.564,"end":30006.681,"text":"那對於退休輔助基金跟入跟出一併注意慶應處理啦所以不要認為現在水龍頭的水太小你們找一個新的水龍頭口徑大的就直接安插在警察人員人事條例當中這樣以為就可以提高所得替代率還是要回歸整套自來水系統回歸到我們整個退伍系統也就是公務人員退休之前輔助法當中的辦法"},{"start":30008.522,"end":30012.343,"text":"條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":30031.208,"end":30052.234,"text":"條文提待率90或95在前端應該負有什麼樣的義務,繳費義務,才不會把所得替代率後端所享受的已經退休人的享受,增加到前面還在職人員他們的繳費負擔上。我覺得這才是個正辦。所以再次奉勸,要做主來聚,不要做一個水到水頭而已。整套主來聚,水口水槓,要到水頭水頭。"},{"start":30056.895,"end":30075.232,"text":"要作為涉嫌不要放在警察人員人事條例當中還是回歸到公務人員退休之前幾……就是這個辦法去處理,這個法去處理。以上,就這樣回應了。說一句國民黨來,阿嘴的頭磚的頭嘴,真好啦。話說回來,以前福祉,有一堆狗,"},{"start":30082.985,"end":30102.976,"text":"這堆稿呢,都一堆眼睛而已,戰中破雙,一隻肝一隻尾的。阿去給這兩堆眼睛的稿齁,給堆散了,加加遍體臨床。所以要有輔助主筆齁,總要把這堆稿救起來。救起來之後放在一雙。這雙呢,寫到幾雙都是一堆眼睛的稿啊。有一日啊。"},{"start":30113.069,"end":30123.912,"text":"二）委員的稿來到這棵山寫圖時,叫這棵山的稿看,哎呦夭壽啦,靠,那個稿破手了,二）委員啦,讚頌的稿啦,二）委員啦。這個稿大王吼,這二）委員的稿大王總要叫一頂稿,一）委員會說,處理稿找我看看,看,那兩）委員的稿早上就給他對一下,好,不會把他抓回來。這兩）委員的稿一直照,一直照。"},{"start":30141.616,"end":30145.619,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正三草案》案。"},{"start":30178.857,"end":30196.544,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、六、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、"},{"start":30217.952,"end":30246.198,"text":"那個也不是立法委員可以提案的啦國家在整個國家國家的一個公民意志來處理那個柯總召是說砍聯金是立法委員可以提案但是不要把他停止是立法委員不能提案喔這是什麼道理啊沒有我說憲法我剛剛讀了憲法憲法來柯總召我剛剛為了你說那個我們不懂憲法我趕快把中華民國憲法又讀了一遍啊我先講憲法等一下"},{"start":30247.709,"end":30271.369,"text":"有六種情況我們知道謝謝學長謝謝學長來總長阿強還有什麼不熟悉尊重一下尊重一下不是等一下那是上一次上一題那個柯總長為什麼無戀那你沒尊重我我剛為了你說憲法特別把憲法兩個那個原則還有這個憲法第七條拿出來再讀了一下咧等你開始再講"},{"start":30565.256,"end":30582.182,"text":"你的春風是豆腐做的。國婆山河寨,行春車木青,甘時花鮮蕊,粉白鳥驚心。紅紅蓮三月,家書滴瓣金,白條絲經斷,粉玉不勝針,不勝針。哇!不錯!"},{"start":30597.236,"end":30601.332,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案案。」案。"},{"start":30891.22,"end":30912.919,"text":"二）委員劉許廷等到你了。你讓這麼多前輩在這等你。總召大人不是說回來自殺了嗎?這邊。話都講成這樣了。歡迎回來。那吳宗憲、趙偉可以回來了吧?你們還要協詢誰?黃國昌是不會來了啦。"},{"start":31005.171,"end":31008.932,"text":"二）委員高津昭偉等19人擬具高津昭偉等19人擬具高津昭偉"},{"start":31245.248,"end":31264.553,"text":"趙偉你等到人數多了你就到了謝謝大家比我媽還想我等到你一點都不好笑餒不會啦好啦那我們就繼續開會沒關係啦謝謝指教"},{"start":31293.462,"end":31305.152,"text":"不會啦,上次我們的召委離開好幾個小時,更久嘛對不對?好,那我們...好,我們現在有一個臨時...要送喔?要送喔?靠腰了"},{"start":31323.339,"end":31336.391,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文"},{"start":31350.762,"end":31369.335,"text":"那個上會動議要優先處理嗎?因為現在有提出上會動議那我們先請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":31373.537,"end":31397.553,"text":"提案提出三會動議提案人委員吳清明、吳思瑤、審發會、蘇巧慧、鍾嘉斌、張鴻祿、黃捷、陳俊宇、王美惠宣讀完畢。提點名表決放置為之留下記錄啦主席不要重複念知道嗎?主席要先拿簽照給我"},{"start":31404.941,"end":31432.267,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬"},{"start":31433.57,"end":31450.248,"text":"報告柯總召那這樣子既然你們提點名表決沒關係那我們就用舉手表決來討論點名表決嘛我想說這個是OK嘛程序就這樣走嘛不是啦因為總召我都是跟你學習的啦那我們就這樣處理好不好"},{"start":31456.64,"end":31484.182,"text":"你現在要點名表決嘛對不對那我們現在就因為有同仁有提出來說需要用要來表決到底要不要用點名表決那這個方式那我們現在表決啊沒有啦兩個都要表決要不要舉手兩號點名表決先表決一下針對省會動議以點名表決方式大家有沒有有無異議"},{"start":31485.783,"end":31509.389,"text":"請問他有異議?好有異議那對於異議是什麼?好那針對點名表決部分齁我們以舉手表決的方式為之那請輕點在場人數沒有問題舉手我幫你點唱名啦問題舉手這樣齁"},{"start":31515.11,"end":31527.474,"text":"來,歷史的一課來,大家看著喔。我們現在開始表決齁,那贊成民進黨所提出來的一點名表決方式進行表決者請舉手。你看,都準時啊。"},{"start":31534.184,"end":31540.332,"text":"有吳清明、蘇巧慧、王美惠、陳俊宇、黃捷、張宏祿、沈發慧、鍾嘉斌、吳思瑤跟...好,那反對者請舉手"},{"start":31552.196,"end":31564.56,"text":"二）委員羅志強等19人擬具羅志強等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具王小林等19人擬具"},{"start":31582.366,"end":31610.636,"text":"好 那我們現在處理散會動議請問對民進黨所提的柯建民所提的散會動議請問大家有異議沒有異議好 有異議的話馬上表決好 請清點在場人數再去表決一次有異議沒有異議先表決一下好 在場人數21人支持贊成柯總召所提的散會動議者請舉手"},{"start":31612.591,"end":31612.871,"text":"本件贊成上會議動議者為少數。"},{"start":31634.983,"end":31639.566,"text":"和尚會動議報告．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":31661.175,"end":31663.096,"text":"我們現在處理延長會議時間的動議"},{"start":31683.788,"end":31687.83,"text":"總召剛剛才表決完你這麼快就忘了我們剛剛那個跟總召報告一下"},{"start":31698.314,"end":31716.14,"text":"是全體委員會議之會議時間,禮請延長至全部議程審議完畢,是否有當敬請公務人員、黑暗人委員傅坤祺、卓志強、徐欣宜、許珍宇、林玄中、張志倫等全體委員會議之會議時間,禮請延長至全部議程審議完畢,是否有當敬請公務人員、黑暗人委員傅坤祺、卓志強、徐欣宜、徐珍宇等全體委員會議之會議時間,禮請延長至全部議程審議完畢,是否有當敬請公務人員、黑暗人委員傅坤祺、卓志強、徐欣宜等全體委員會"},{"start":31728.724,"end":31731.205,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":31754.894,"end":31758.657,"text":"延長原因是什麼說明一下好不好好我們先清點在場人數我們人有變動在場人數21人"},{"start":31774.65,"end":31785.778,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條文修正第三十五條條"},{"start":31804.79,"end":31815.256,"text":"那你不是有講原因嗎?為什麼?11人請放下反對請舉手沒有沒有,可是我表決一直被我第30條我跟妳講喔一直被我第30條在...在..."},{"start":31826.792,"end":31831.936,"text":"二）委員三）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":31857.068,"end":31879.625,"text":"什麼討論要講什麼東西啊?要討論什麼啊?主席一般延長要講原因,怎麼先延長再來講原因?同時要講原因在議題表決。你要延長開會時間,原因要先講清楚。沒有先延長再來講原因的,你這個程序錯誤。程序不正義就無效。"},{"start":31884.248,"end":31905.124,"text":"韓國瑜在宴會主持會是這樣阿今天至於委員長開的時間大嫂才有維持一講話就算平息不增益阿不要長紮齁才得回去寫臉書晚上要寫一篇情理阿好不好請你啦你明天晚上睡覺以後要看我的臉書你才會好像看Bible一樣齁還要狠"},{"start":31907.21,"end":31919.3,"text":"好 那個柯總召講完了齁 那我可以繼續了齁那我們現在就繼續審理第三十五條及增訂附表三那現在有委員提出停職討論動議什麼叫停職討論動議"},{"start":31927.106,"end":31953.147,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律"},{"start":31954.839,"end":31962.366,"text":"提案者是不要提案說明這是他的權利嘛那他如果不願意提案都不想說明就趕快提案說明就趕快下課提案說明聽之討論動議請問各位"},{"start":31973.436,"end":31998.462,"text":"三）委員請問有無異議?有異議的話那我們就進行表決。針對停職討論動議者,現在進行表決齁,採用舉手表決。啊,表決前請先請舉手。這沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案說明,我們表決什麼東西啊?我沒有提案"},{"start":32004.11,"end":32016.582,"text":"二）委員齊翔等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":32027.981,"end":32035.951,"text":"表決結果到在場出席委員21人贊成者11人反對者10人本案贊成者多數通過現在進行討論。"},{"start":32047.304,"end":32051.308,"text":"你們為什麼敢提提出討論的提案呢?三十五條還沒有處理完。三十五條都有意義啊。我們要求延長討論又不要討論。"},{"start":32072.386,"end":32082.553,"text":"條文及三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．併案審查立法院第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議"},{"start":32096.903,"end":32097.083,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":32108.71,"end":32131.456,"text":"來那個因為本條我們剛在審查的時候那個羅志強委員他提議說他希望本條保留送協商那不知道各位有無異議有異議嗎這個案子要持續在委員會持續討論阿因為沒有方式阿那如果有異議要隨方向來順三因為我們這個國民黨的主席也不會協商阿他不會協商的啦縣長沒有協商的啦"},{"start":32138.019,"end":32154.191,"text":"二）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹑三）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具《警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案案﹑三）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具《警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案案案案案案案﹑三）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具《警察人員人事條例第三十五條條條文修正草案案案案案﹑三）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具《警察人員人事條例第三十五條條"},{"start":32162.036,"end":32181.101,"text":"提案人蘇清泉有來嗎?提案人萬美玲有來嗎?提案人王宏威有來嗎?提案人丁焯昌有來說明嗎?提案人林寬宏有來嗎?提案人周天才有來說明嗎?提案人林思敏有來嗎?提案人王宏威有來說明了嗎?提案人劉浩文有來說明了嗎?提案人劉浩文有來說明了嗎?"},{"start":32188.003,"end":32191.646,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":32201.243,"end":32204.567,"text":"條例修正第三條條文修正第三條條文修正第三條條文"},{"start":32220.959,"end":32240.266,"text":"結束了齁那個有關法條的提案說明其實早上我們都有讓提案的人願意來說提案的人要來參與討論才知道麻煩不要麻煩尊重主席現在在發言那主席發言完畢之後再如果有需要的我們再請其他委員發言那因為有關條文的提案說明"},{"start":32243.196,"end":32255.147,"text":"條文提案說明的部分因為今天早上有提案者都已經來說明我記得是四位到五位那如果其他不願意他有提案不願意來做說明我想我們也是尊重他的意見"},{"start":32258.75,"end":32286.479,"text":"那我們現在就羅志強委員所提出來的就本條保留送協商這個部分呢因為雙方大家有反對阿所以就這個部分呢我們用舉手表決的方式等等主席阿這個保留送協商的也可以討論吧等等等等主席這個不是不經討論就可以說保留送協商的喔那個小朋友在照什麼那個誰阿那個主席你是誰主席這一個提議這個動議還是要討論"},{"start":32288.32,"end":32288.44,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":32297.054,"end":32305.438,"text":"這直播的不一定要炸到我們?不是你們請人在這裡拍龍義祥的比賽表決行為?還沒有,一天半晚,都是你們在偷拍啊!主席,那個,中委,我們這一條已經停止討論,剛剛已經表決過了。"},{"start":32318.585,"end":32321.906,"text":"我現在討論的是表決送協商的這個批要討論吧你要先停著討論啊主席我們要求要討論表決送協商那個東西欸請問在場的委員支持"},{"start":32333.43,"end":32350.797,"text":"主席等等等等這個動議還沒有被討論喔主席主席我提醒一下你現在剛剛的羅委員的動議還沒有被討論這個動議不是不經討論就可以立即表決的請看清楚喔那反對保留送協商者請舉手主席剛剛的保留送協商的動議不是不經討論就可以表決的喔"},{"start":32361.819,"end":32368.481,"text":"結果在場出席委員21人,贊成者11人,反對90人多數通過。第三十五條及增訂附表三保留送協商。"},{"start":32384.455,"end":32399.83,"text":"我們現在審查續號第11那個第36條提案人有鄭天才等18人提案及武力華委員等16人提案請問就本條部分有意見有意見本條是不是對本條請說好來"},{"start":32402.898,"end":32417.661,"text":"主席本條號就是什麼我之前所說今天呢我們有12個版本在處理35條所以36條的這兩個版本這兩個版本呢他分別呢就是就公務人員原來就公務人員退休"},{"start":32419.618,"end":32446.388,"text":"公務人員撫恤法他把名稱改為新法的名稱叫公務人員退休之前撫恤法兩個提案都是一樣那我再強調的我們今天這一次的12個版本的討論當中除了武力法委員的版本他就是就原條文當中適用舊法名稱的公務人員撫恤法改為公務人員退休之前撫恤法之外"},{"start":32447.128,"end":32454.325,"text":"其他的都有動到三十五條的所得替代率。」那麼我認為這兩個條文呢他目前他就將"},{"start":32455.894,"end":32481.721,"text":"舊法名稱改為新法但是我還是要強調的剛剛我們所謂保留送協商的版本當中有主張所得替代率90%有主張所得替代率95%甚至有同一位委員提出兩個一模一樣的版本那這個剛才都沒有經過充分的討論處理而且所謂的保留送協商剛剛主席也沒有說明是"},{"start":32482.802,"end":32493.895,"text":"該三十五條全部的十一個版本都保留送協商還是保留哪些條文送協商那我還是要強調一下我們這次如果大家真的關心警察人員"},{"start":32495.967,"end":32519.236,"text":"的退休輔續的內容那麼回歸到他警察人員人事條例本身他從任官任職到後面的退休跟輔續基本上在退休輔續的時候已經回歸到公務人員退休之前輔續法當中去將整個退輔基金的進跟出收跟支做永續經營的考量"},{"start":32520.777,"end":32538.212,"text":"所以如果我們在這裡針對警察人員的退休輔具沿用警察人員人事條例當中的專章退休輔具專章只加了變更所得替代率而且所得替代率這個部分也不鑒於我們警察人員人事條例的其他條文"},{"start":32540.274,"end":32547.759,"text":"所以完完全全是橫空而出以這樣而論呢這樣的警察人員人事條例要來單獨的處理警察人員的退休撫恤的所謂的所得替代率實在在法制的體力上是有所焊隔的所以我們的再三的希望我們接下來的36條雖然只是將法條名稱根據新法的名稱予以更正予以修訂"},{"start":32562.367,"end":32579.701,"text":"但是真正核心的問題就是在於我們警察人員退休撫恤的所得替代率應該回歸到我們公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中能夠充分的一三十七條三十八條當中去精算他如果要提高警察人員退休後的撫恤"},{"start":32580.922,"end":32607.37,"text":"又不要去增加在職現在的警察人員他們的負擔那這一定要從他們過去是否有旅行提撥或者繳費這樣的義務才能在後續去退休給付的時候去核算他們的權利那如果只有就權利的部分單向的提高警察人員現職退休現在已經退休包含已經退休跟"},{"start":32608.59,"end":32611.153,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．一）委員"},{"start":32622.478,"end":32629.423,"text":"支付就是由其他的在職的警務人員他們必須來負擔而且這也減損了現職人員退休後他們可以領取退休補去相關年金的權利所以在這裡我們要再次的強調民主進步黨我們認為對於警察人員的照顧這是不分部會都應該要支持的"},{"start":32644.634,"end":32662.577,"text":"但是如果只是想要增加警察人員尤其是已經退休人員他在退休輔助當中的權益而只是單向的針對警察人員人事條例在三十五條當中去提高一個所得替代率是完全沒有辦法去進行處理的所以呢針對我們今天有十二個版本十一個版本十個委員領銜的提案我們還是希望"},{"start":32670.859,"end":32688.409,"text":"能夠回歸到公務人員退休之前撫恤法第37條第38條完完整整的將未來如果要提高限職警察人員退休之後他所請領的退休年金幾付應該在這個階段37條38條同時一併處理他們對於該退撫基金本身應與進行的繳交的"},{"start":32697.074,"end":32706.142,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯"},{"start":32720.414,"end":32742.654,"text":"所得替代率要到達90%或95%的時候相對應的他在公務人員退休之前撫恤法當中第37條38條要如何的去完成相關的配套才不會說已經退休的人因為這個條文的修改讓行政部門他們去擴張擴張他們並沒有"},{"start":32745.396,"end":32764.355,"text":"旅行的義務而一味的調整他們所享用的權利。」那這個呢是真正對我們目前退休警察人員的一種傷害因為我想退休警察人員過去對於國家的付出對於社會的貢獻我們都已肯定但是所謂的公務人員退休之前撫恤法"},{"start":32765.276,"end":32786.737,"text":"就是清清楚楚明明白白的將所有包括警察人員在內的公務人員他們在職期間所依法依法所繳交的未來支應退休撫恤的金所需要的經費他們依法來繳納而在他們退休之後才能依法來請領所以主席我講這麼多你都沒有再仔細聽"},{"start":32787.538,"end":32801.469,"text":"三十六條講啊我三十六條講到我讓你開心的講三十六條是文事修正你也給人家講個十分鐘欣賞你啊回復到那你一直在講之前的條文我就讓你開心回復打斷你嘛那我這樣對你還不夠好嗎萬水應該點頭吧好不好我再提醒喔如果我們真的要改三十五條、三十六條"},{"start":32816.96,"end":32832.75,"text":"回歸到公務人員退休之前撫恤法,這也是三十六條的規定嘛。三十六條它不是修改了嗎?它把原來的公務人員退休撫恤法改成了公務人員退休之前撫恤法。所以主席有瞭解我在談到三十六條的內容的確是兩個版本都是將舊法的名稱改為新法的名稱。這樣子有沒有回復到三十六條的本題?"},{"start":32844.878,"end":32873.284,"text":"那我還加上一個應該將整個今天討論的一內容回歸到公務人員退休之前撫恤法來處理。好,謝謝,那我們接下來由羅志強委員發言。好啦,我真的是對我們宗嘉賓感到無限的佩服。其實36條,我們所有的直播大家來看一看。他就只是把適用公務人員撫恤法之規定改成適用公務人員退休之前撫恤法。"},{"start":32874.639,"end":32901.404,"text":"你也可以給我講個你可以扯到外太空去你的能力簡直超越你們的大師柯建民啦對不對柯建民校長要傳承了啦今天連個文字修正你都要可以盤古開天講下去那說真的討論也沒什麼意義啦你們的散會還真的有意義喔因為你也知道眾嘉賓接下來要開始盤古開天了所以柯建民就要提散會是這個意思嗎至於要講35條"},{"start":32909.33,"end":32923.383,"text":"三十五條拜託今天所有看直播的人我們討論三十五條討論多久每一個人都發言在討論三十五條已經討論到最後兩邊開始還做了休息協商沒有共識嘛"},{"start":32924.204,"end":32951.657,"text":"沒有公示材所以保留送協商嘛怎麼會講到說變成是三十五條沒有討論呢?金魚腦也不是這樣子設定的啊 對不對裝瞎也不能說完全連一絲絲的光都看不到啊 對不對所以我要講就是說三十五條不要又被民進黨朋友騙了三十五條一整個下午都在討論三十五條三十六條只是文字修正要討論鬼循環到什麼時候啊謝謝"},{"start":32954.07,"end":32956.937,"text":"謝謝 那先請那個省委員 委員完就翁委員"},{"start":32959.102,"end":32987.056,"text":"這個請不要把人民都當作白癡啦齁你剛剛講的那些話大家都都因為整個過程你如果有從頭看到尾就知道這個這個尤其是齁我們如果有忠實的觀眾齁每天都有收看我們我們羅志強委員直播的齁我們司法法制委員會的實況齁大家就可以知道說國民黨國民黨在這司法法制委員會裡面他們的一貫手法到目前為止都是完全一樣啦齁這個操作就是這樣子啦齁"},{"start":32988.276,"end":33010.017,"text":"現在討論36條。年金制度好比一列行駛中的火車,而各種年金制度的破產就像是前方的懸崖。如果現在不改革,火車還是會向前開。但如果我們不及早搭建跨越懸崖的大橋,未來火車一定會墜崖。"},{"start":33011.698,"end":33024.403,"text":"年金制度本來就是一個自助互助的制度並不是你的年金我的年金警察的年金軍人的年金而是我們的年金也是我們子孫的年金更是不能倒的年金"},{"start":33027.644,"end":33044.61,"text":"這個是2013年1月2013年1月30號我們馬英九先生所講的一段話那這個跟大家共勉之他提到說這個年金的這個改革"},{"start":33045.973,"end":33058.337,"text":"如果他的必要性、迫切性、複雜性不容忽略,若不趕快解決,傷害的不只是國家財政,影響所及,不只是軍公教勞工,包括社會整體。」這是2012年11月21日馬英九先生的講話。"},{"start":33066.697,"end":33093.95,"text":"這個進行年金改革是勇於承擔責任的表現年金改革應該有長期規劃的打算我國卻成為公務人員退休年齡最低和勞動參與率最低的國家因此現在如果不再推動年金改革制度的話國家利益良善的公務人員退休制度將被扭曲且將無以為繼這個是2013年7月26日考試院院長關中與行政院人事、行政院主管匯報"},{"start":33095.11,"end":33121.824,"text":"所講的話這個看到其他國家紛紛推動年金改革我們卻是果足不前猶豫不決難道我們還要再等待下去付出更大的代價這個是2013年12月31號考試院長關忠在102年度考試院日本年金制度考察報告的序言裡面所提的接下來在這個"},{"start":33125.32,"end":33148.658,"text":"考試院第11屆第227次會議紀錄102年3月7號考試院長關忠表示對於年輕改革不單是有憐憫之心更是以蒼生為念所謂憐憫之心是對全國同胞當我們看到社會上這麼多人"},{"start":33151.691,"end":33166.868,"text":"如何沒有憐憫之心呢?退休制度是根據精算,年金改革追求的是要有更長期、更安定及穩定性,不能讓公務人員感覺到退休制度隨時可改,因此基本架構是不可以隨意變更的。」"},{"start":33170.992,"end":33193.978,"text":"這個我們在在今天的這個這個討論裡面齁這個我們非常遺憾我們最後齁又是又是用這個包裹保留齁然後說要送政黨協商但是我在這裡預言到時候政黨協商如果直播請各位觀眾能夠收看啦齁預言到時候我們的這個現在坐在台上的召委齁這個浩真前檢察官的吳宗憲檢察官到時候主持這個協商齁"},{"start":33197.139,"end":33201.781,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一．委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．"},{"start":33225.012,"end":33238.728,"text":"國會擴權法案到現在顯然我要在這裡告訴大家顯然國民黨沒有學到任何教訓他們不曉得說程序正義事實上是很重要的因為他們如果耐性的讓我們這樣討論然後今天大家也都說要針對這個估算要針對這個"},{"start":33242.831,"end":33265.732,"text":"年輕未來做估算估算表出來之後下次再討論這個東西討論過程中有共識那麽他其實有耐性的今天一次兩次討論之後最後表決還是贏啊打電話叫牛許廷來就贏啊對不對這個這個就就就就很很又不會說因因此因為走完完備的程序國民黨就投票就輸了呢最後林思明還趕到來不及投票哎呀"},{"start":33267.503,"end":33293.855,"text":"那就是反正表決會贏但是你們總是不願意把這個程序走得完整因而引發民怨這個教訓到現在還是國民黨還是沒有學習到所以我是在這邊是這個我們表我們表決書這個是早就早就預期到的但是沒有想到說連年金這不是國會過權喔就連年金這種百年大計這種牽涉到公務人員相對的剝奪這樣子的問題"},{"start":33297.247,"end":33297.367,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":33314.366,"end":33326.498,"text":"我相信全國的觀眾如果現在有在全程看國會頻道直播就可以知道民進黨委員向來就是擾亂議事然後無裡頭的討論還說這是什麼民主就是一個無意義的民主"},{"start":33333.425,"end":33336.648,"text":"大家今天從這個早上一直討論到下午都討論三十五條他還說沒有討論現在我們在進行的是三十六條的討論三十六條是什麼呢他是因為配合著公務人員退休之前撫恤法的名稱改變"},{"start":33351.821,"end":33358.625,"text":"所以我們才要修原來的警察人員條例裡面他原來是只有公務人員撫恤法只是把法案的名稱配合這後來的修法做了文字的調整這樣的一個條文大家討論沒有問題啊我們可以來檢討啊公務人員的退休之前撫恤法你要怎麼去修改那個文字但是講來講去都還是講到這三十五條這就是為什麼"},{"start":33379.797,"end":33405.507,"text":"國民黨不願意跟立法跟民進黨委員來進行討論因為進行了冗長而沒有意義的討論因為你們就是亂討論你們有按照法條的裡面的內容在討論嗎沒有國會改革的所有的條文每一條都是如此所以不要再說我們沒有討論我們已經包容你們太久我覺得你們基本上是"},{"start":33407.335,"end":33436.585,"text":"你們就是沒有意義的討論亂討論還敢說這個是沒有民主我就是比你大怎麼樣你就是比我們大有人在發言的時候不要按麥克風你們有尊重議事規則嗎等一下麻煩你們等翁委員講完嘛那我們不是之前講過不要按麥克風干擾好不好好好講好好講這個妙論請一下"},{"start":33437.369,"end":33450.317,"text":"我要講的就是整個國會改革法案乃至於今天的法案然後到這個隔壁的國會這個國防外交委員會的法案都是一樣的意思只要是你們民進黨認為對的才是對的嗎我們已經經過這麼多的討論大家都有發言那麼你們我們要一直討論到你們滿意才叫做可以通過嗎我覺得實在是太荒謬了"},{"start":33463.223,"end":33486.122,"text":"年金改革本來就是一個壓迫公教人員的改革方案在過去這些年來有多少的公教人員反彈這個法案你們還好意思說這個改革法案是對的我告訴你今天不過只是說是幫警消人員先恢復他們的一些權利拉高他們的所得替代率讓他們可以有好的生活這什麼不對我們現在"},{"start":33488.384,"end":33511.945,"text":"討論的是36條,35條已經討論過了。我希望待會就終止討論,因為這樣的討論繼續下去是沒有意義的討論。下一位就麻煩柯總召發言。我想今天是一個很好的民主教育。那二委員發言好像給你們討論"},{"start":33513.843,"end":33521.615,"text":"憲法賦予立法委員執行權這是憲法規定的不是所謂恩統治的誰給你討論誰給誰的討論要先講清楚"},{"start":33527.779,"end":33547.756,"text":"那在這個憲法底下憲法7條議法委員不可做預算增加所以預算前意是在行政院所以有所謂的憲法第58條行政院把預算送進去結果議會才送到立法院來你這些所有的改革所有年金的這一部分"},{"start":33548.837,"end":33573.643,"text":"除了是行政院提案沒有立法院提案的這點想很清楚這個原點是在這裡所以你不能剝奪行政院對於預算的潛力對於行政院對於所有的這個實質的潛力這個大法官391寫得很清楚585也寫得很清楚今天我們是要從憲政體制上來看這個"},{"start":33575.836,"end":33585.58,"text":"你知道這個都一算之初啊一算之初啊所以這當然要講到錢的問題嘛我聽你講你知道我沒有插你的嘴我是一直很稀有光聽覺得很奇怪的言論而已總的來講的話"},{"start":33602.915,"end":33627.167,"text":"坦白講,我們今天一直阻止一些行為,就是說防止國民黨一直自殺違憲的東西就是違憲。憲法沒有的,沒有可以說是金融橋的。所以一修憲那是十三,把憲法的原則全部改變,所以就是這麼一個簡單的原則而已。好,謝謝。那我們下一位請吳孝委員發言。"},{"start":33630.289,"end":33631.17,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":33656.937,"end":33659.859,"text":"二）委員烏爾元等19人擬具"},{"start":33667.534,"end":33670.777,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":33695.339,"end":33704.588,"text":"我要跟大家說沒有討論不是民主沒有沒有意義的民主我委員只有不願意討論的假民主也沒有什麼是亂討論只有國民黨的不討論"},{"start":33713.755,"end":33734.099,"text":"我們今天下午從兩點二十分開始進入大體討論跟逐條討論請問溫小玲委員你在哪裡?請問牛許廷委員那時候你在哪裡?請問徐宇貞委員徐信義委員林思敏委員你們有趕回來逐條討論嗎?所以當我們認認真真坐在這裡逐條討論的時候在溫小玲不來開會的委員口中變成亂討論"},{"start":33741.608,"end":33747.955,"text":"這是不對的。大家都認真嚴肅的面對年金因為這個修法是不是會加速破產。我們都負責任的要對世代正義為未來現役要領退休金的警察人員我們要負責"},{"start":33761.75,"end":33790.169,"text":"所以今天下午我提出三大我不能同意這個法案的理由第一個違反憲法70條違反大法官釋字391號的解釋立委不能為增加預算之決議第二個違反財政紀律法第五條跟第七條的規範因為你們都包括婦婚及總召下午在主條討論您也不在所以你們都沒有在我必須重新再說我反對這個條文"},{"start":33792.09,"end":33806.378,"text":"二）委員同一個基金同一種繳費基準同一個退府制度都應當一致這才是真正的公平這才是真正的公平"},{"start":33807.959,"end":33831.681,"text":"第三個我們要確保退府基金的永續如果要擴大來照顧退休的警消人員我們更不能偏廢現在現役的警消人員他未來的退休金如果領不到年金破產請問提案的委員能負責嗎"},{"start":33834.42,"end":33839.285,"text":"請問強行要把所得替代率拉到90拉到95的在野黨委員你們能夠為年金因此加速破產你們能負責嗎?比照OECD國家2022年"},{"start":33855.981,"end":33884.354,"text":"條文提代率是61%,這是OECD國家61.4%,台灣如果以2022年的所得替代率的均值是69.23%。我們努力想方設法的來保障退休的公務人員,我們比國際的所得替代率還高了八成。"},{"start":33885.866,"end":33904.371,"text":"這些內容我們在不管是上午的詢答或下午的主條討論我們都認真的面對所以沒有什麼東西叫做亂討論沒有什麼東西叫做沒有意義的討論這一屆的立法院只有不願意討論的國民黨"},{"start":33907.386,"end":33932.496,"text":"我們剛剛提出散會動議是因為我們要終結國民黨這種只會打包協商議案而不進行實質討論的這種惡霸做法從國會擴權法案到現在再一次上演在司法法制委員會再一次上演在我們的國會王小林委員請不要在那裡罵神經病不要進行這樣子的發言"},{"start":33936.306,"end":33940.328,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":33959.978,"end":33978.99,"text":"但是讓我們的年金加速的破產剛剛我們以初步、初估、初估、初估的數字五十年減少挹注這個基金一千零八十億誰能負責立委大家大筆一揮大筆一揮"},{"start":33981.05,"end":33996.856,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．"},{"start":34003.891,"end":34011.851,"text":"所以剛剛我們審法會員講得很好以為國民黨會獲得教訓這是高估了你們的良知"},{"start":34014.189,"end":34019.992,"text":"三十六條只有文字再跟大家解釋一下好那麻煩牛委員好謝謝主席這都點名了不來講一下這說的不太對現在是一個網路直播的時代"},{"start":34035.12,"end":34061.148,"text":"雖然我們剛剛人在外面跑行程但是我們一路都有在收聽直播所以一直到剛剛主席才是休息之前基本上都對三十五條進行了非常非常充分的討論雙方立場我大概簡單都可以幫大家收束一下民進黨當然主張不希望調整這樣的一個制度有若干若干的理由但我們節省時間就不一一贅述國民黨這邊也有主張啊我們希望退休的警校能夠有更好的這個相關的待遇去保障我今天早上在質詢的時候也講"},{"start":34062.128,"end":34067.25,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議"},{"start":34085.336,"end":34102.334,"text":"好回到法條36條我們要按照逐條審查的精神這個法條就是改善文字而已如果大家對這個法條文字沒有意見就有共識來通過如果連法條文字大家都有不同的想法保留協商我們的立法院之所以有朝野黨團協商的制度就是害怕"},{"start":34102.714,"end":34127.726,"text":"大家意見不合的時候連續耽誤開會的時間造成議事的不效率所以才有黨團協商的一個機制那今天大家都坐在這邊如果要多發言幾次當然沒有問題但是如果已經經歷了一整個下午的發言針對這個法案的立場完全不同而且針鋒相對的時候是不是改由黨團協商有一定的冷靜期政府機關也用這樣的冷靜期補充的資料"},{"start":34129.167,"end":34142.553,"text":"互相來做溝通也許讓人數變少比較能夠有效率的達成共識這才是朝野黨團協商的目的嘛那既然有這樣的機制就善用這樣的機制如此而已啊以上報告謝謝"},{"start":34152.778,"end":34168.733,"text":"這個柯建民因為從來不曉得什麼叫做會場次序所以謝謝主席剛剛給他上一課我們很明確的舉手大家都看到只有柯總召常常視而不見我們要特別強調一下特別強調一下"},{"start":34172.421,"end":34172.621,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":34193.724,"end":34196.527,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":34216.431,"end":34232.322,"text":"但是造成了多少優秀的人才不願意進到這個政府來因為民進黨向來就是用庸才所以也符合他們基本上啊把國家一流人才都排擠掉都不願意進政府啊三流的政府用三流的人才就是這樣"},{"start":34233.303,"end":34235.644,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":34261.431,"end":34282.816,"text":"對民進黨來講這是小case我要特別在這裡要跟一樣啦你們剛剛也沒有在講36條我現在也沒有必要講36條所以我現在特別要強調一件事情今天民進黨我不曉得是懵了還是傻了"},{"start":34283.956,"end":34287.337,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"},{"start":34312.318,"end":34324.399,"text":"我們的警察、消防跟海巡人員這民進黨所稱的第二陸軍還是第二海軍這些人以後還要為國家做這麼多事情我真的覺得"},{"start":34326.28,"end":34350.751,"text":"五十年一千多億,民進黨真的是懵了?還是傻了?還是健忘了?兩年啊!你們去年前年就超出了八千多億,八千六百多億啊!還在跟警察人員計較一年二十億!我們真的是覺得我們到底要討論什麼事情啊?浪費大家這麼多時間啊!那八千六百多億你要拿下去嘛!講清楚嘛!"},{"start":34352.044,"end":34367.01,"text":"一（二）委員安頓存國的警察消防海巡,難道是錯的嗎?我們在這裏就這麽簡單的事,我本席實在很不想發言啦,但是待會因為柯建民要星海羅盤了,所以我就呼應柯總統他講的,我還沒講完等一下聽"},{"start":34376.778,"end":34383.063,"text":"等我講完再聽討論好不好來我講一下齁我們不能夠違反議事規則因為我們提資討論要先處理的我先講話再先欸你要聽討論我講完再來講你敢這樣搞啊你敢這樣搞"},{"start":34401.336,"end":34408.64,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例三草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":34420.928,"end":34446.585,"text":"好先讓先這樣齁不好意思大家先清明氣和一下本來依照議事程序提出來本來就是優先處理我想我這樣處理沒有錯但是因為好沒關係因為那這樣齁因為大家沒有意見那就麻煩你欸也不要說五分鐘啦因為我今天大家都沒有限制時間嘛那我也不可能說因為這樣要給沒關係啦那我"},{"start":34450.02,"end":34453.664,"text":"本席以下發言請大家注意聽第一個我現在講的韓社範圍包括35 36因為我從現任角度的高度來看這個事情今天我們要談的是這個事情"},{"start":34471.563,"end":34484.836,"text":"議員法院不可以做提案除了政府提案你剝奪政府的預算錢就實質剝奪那憲法有規律70條規律很清楚391、585很多條都規律很清楚所以這我從這個角度來看待"},{"start":34489.554,"end":34503.565,"text":"所以你講的都是絲絲而廢啦。大家都不想要每一個人都說我國人都退休以後都沒收入,這個無可發揮。當然不是夏娥生活,請這個因此你自己想清楚。"},{"start":34504.878,"end":34523.93,"text":"警察現在都有圍牢警察他是公務人員金人事他有年期年限要退休了所以總之差別在這個地方警察要比較金人的話當然那種公務人員真的報酬感都大現在金人現在金人事最低還有6萬8公務人員有2萬8"},{"start":34526.371,"end":34545.736,"text":"同樣是關於人可以有這樣的商業保護感嗎?所以今天要講一個道理,一個身份體制的問題,就是如此而已。所以請不要那樣混淆視聽啦。我跟妳講,我跟妳坦白,妳那時候妙論喔,自己在廁所裡面講一講就好,不要讓她在台邊上亂講一通。"},{"start":34547.745,"end":34558.843,"text":"所以今天我要告訴各位今天也不是說曹偉強人數多少的問題講到的時候是人多和人少都是一樣大家站在這個角度來看待所以拜託各位"},{"start":34560.424,"end":34564.606,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":34586.076,"end":34592.499,"text":"要請任國民黨,讓你們的國民黨去中場自殺。以上是各位好好思考一下。讓不到5分鐘啦。"},{"start":34601.937,"end":34602.897,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"},{"start":34622.142,"end":34650.265,"text":"那三個小時一直在講這個觀念而已可是觀念能力有時候觀念時刻才有時候只在講話好不好好謝謝那我們現在就先處理國民黨所提的停止討論動議好那請宣讀針對本次司法法制及內政聯席會議所列討論事項第36條件請停止討論是否有當敬請公決提案委員傅坤晴等宣讀完畢"},{"start":34655.276,"end":34674.891,"text":"兩種結招出來的。好,謝謝。好,那針對第36條部分停止討論,請問各位有無異議?反對。好,有異議。好,那因為大家意見不一致,那我們現在進行表決。我們採用舉手表決。那表決前請先清點在場人數。23位。好,在場人數總共24..."},{"start":34683.623,"end":34698.451,"text":"中委員不要這樣子啦好不好我都要抗議了啦那我們現在開始表決而贊成停職討論者請舉手反對者請舉手反對者11位請放下"},{"start":34713.342,"end":34729.508,"text":"表決結果在場出席委員23人贊成者12人反對者11人本件贊成者多數通過第三十六條停止討論。第三十六條"},{"start":34734.056,"end":34748.911,"text":"第三十六條共有委員鄭天才等18人提案委員吳立華等16人提案請問在場委員有異議只是文字修正欸"},{"start":34754.98,"end":34784.324,"text":"你們是否同意?因為只是文字欸因為我們今天齁我跟各位報告一下今天我們總共審查11個條文那已經有9個條文大家都是無異議通過無異議啊可以無異議啊本黨的可以對我們現在是審查第三十條無異議啊才可以啊無異議啊才可以不是他們兩個版本字一模一樣一模一樣"},{"start":34785.913,"end":34813.239,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員"},{"start":34814.923,"end":34815.283,"text":"不要爭辯 不要爭辯"},{"start":34824.949,"end":34840.893,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）"},{"start":34850.129,"end":34850.329,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":34862.739,"end":34866.02,"text":"二）委員三十六條就照鄭天才及武力華委員的版本通過。各位有異議?沒有異議?好 謝謝"},{"start":34893.414,"end":34905.638,"text":"本案主條均已審查完畢,作以下宣告。本案審查完畢,擬具審查報告,提請院會公決。本案須交由黨團協商。"},{"start":34909.27,"end":34930.035,"text":"應會討論時由吳釗偉中線出席說明,條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理。議程討論事項都已經處理完畢,本次會議到此結束,現在散會謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"16009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16009","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d507799957011912f2042dc10dca8267719186e52af124432c5863329e6d7d8d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告「退輔會職訓機構如何提升退除役官兵專業職能及媒合就業之具體作法」，並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-13T08:31:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:44:00+08:00","duration":11578,"影片長度":"03:12:58","委員發言時間":"08:31:02 - 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將退役上校的子女教育補助扣除了"},{"start":2246.571,"end":2256.419,"text":"那在這邊也不符合憲法上規定對於軍人應予以照顧而且要以平等原則那在這邊呢本席就提出必須要對於軍人的退役軍人的補助應該是要一視同仁的那麼能夠晉升到上校的階級可以說是職業軍人的最高榮譽那麼對於有心服務軍旅的軍人政府更應該要給予妥善的"},{"start":2274.432,"end":2274.592,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":2289.281,"end":2293.384,"text":"那麼這種不確定性、不安定感將會讓軍人感受到待遇的不平等。能夠強化軍艦照顧、減輕生活負擔,藉由週延的福利待遇修法,有助於國軍的優質人力繼續長留久用。"},{"start":2306.732,"end":2306.992,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":2338.521,"end":2348.57,"text":"謝謝翁委員的提案說明現在請退輔會嚴德發主委分別就本次會議專題報告及翁委員所提增訂條文草案進行報告和說明"},{"start":2361.874,"end":2383.006,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進、大家好首先感謝大院貴委員會邀請本會報告輔導會資訊機構如何提升退除役官兵專業職能及媒合就業的具體作法專題以及國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案"},{"start":2384.207,"end":2396.363,"text":"陳鵬哥委員先進對於本會推動職訓輔導的指導以及恢復退役上校領奉人員子女教育補助費的支持謹置最高的敬意跟謝誠。"},{"start":2397.864,"end":2414.613,"text":"本會職訓中心成立的宗旨是為精進退除役官兵實際訓練,輔導就業創業,達到未用而訓、訓用合一的目的,使其退伍後順利轉嫌就業,培訓國家經濟建設新生力量。"},{"start":2415.473,"end":2443.084,"text":"令大院貴委員會審查翁曉玲等18位委員所提輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案。提案內容主要是針對退出役官兵符合資領退休奉、贍養金及生活補助費的人員及子女教育補助費納入輔導條例。本人受命列席報告,對各位委員長期關懷退輔事務,表達感佩之意。"},{"start":2443.844,"end":2454.257,"text":"我想接續,我們分別請本會就學就業處池處長以及退除己副處羅處長向各位委員報告。現在首先請池處長。"},{"start":2464.161,"end":2480.487,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、大家好,現在報告輔導會職訓機構如何提升退出役官兵專業職能及媒合就業之具體作法。一、前言本會職訓中心成立於民國六十四年,為服務全國退出役官兵職業訓練唯一專責機構。"},{"start":2483.008,"end":2507.019,"text":"為協助取等就業需要、習得專業技能、課程結合六大核心戰略產業推動方案等國家的產業發展政策及企業用人趨勢與退除役官兵就業需求,以機械修護等七大職類為核心,必符合人才發展品質管理系統的訓練品質,僅將近年辦理成效及具體作為報告如何。"},{"start":2507.819,"end":2513.404,"text":"二、執行現況及成效一、精進訓練品質履獲TTQS肯定本會職業訓練中心近年來致力於職類多元、教學精進、師資專業提升與教學設備更新推動職能導向課程認證為能客觀有效檢視辦訓品質導入國家級人才發展品質管理系統"},{"start":2531.58,"end":2533.821,"text":"並且在勞動部每兩年評鑑一次TTQS訓練機構獎勵當中﹐連續於108年、110、112年度三度蟬聯金牌獎的殊榮。"},{"start":2544.059,"end":2553.162,"text":"二、近三年自辦訓練及委外訓練的成效。科普一自辦訓練近三年分別培訓111年2138人、112年2033人及113年至5月31日799人。考照率分別為111年97.2%、112年96.1%及113年至5月31日97.8%。"},{"start":2574.108,"end":2576.83,"text":"就業率分別為111年88.2%、112年86.8%、113年人在訓期間尚無統計資料。統計表請參閱。二、委外訓練。近三年分別培訓111年811人。"},{"start":2591.681,"end":2618.359,"text":"一百一十二年九百四十二人及一百一十三年至五月三十一日子四百八十四人考照率分別為一百一十一年百分之九十點四一百一十二年百分之八十五點二及一百一十三年至五月三十一日子百分之七十七點四就業率分別為一百一十一年百分之七十四一百一十二年百分之七十六點一一百一十三年人在訓期間尚無統計資料統計表請參閱"},{"start":2621.141,"end":2628.049,"text":"三、具體作為。一、專業職能培訓措施,包括一、推動ICAP認證,縮短訓用落差。以職能導向規劃課程,藉專家會議及學員訓後就業回饋意見,確保課程規劃符合就業市場所需,縮短訓用落差。"},{"start":2640.55,"end":2669.11,"text":"二、因應產業發展,開辦新興課程參考六大核心戰略產業推動方案規劃班對與課程,辦理情形如下一、因應大數據、人工智慧等新興科技驅動開辦大數據分析及系統設計、自動化與機器人及3D列印創意金屬設計等16項相關課程二、因應無人機全球市場大幅增長,開辦無人機操作班,輔導學員考取證照"},{"start":2670.111,"end":2673.276,"text":"三、因應電動車產業的趨勢辦理電動車輛保修班規劃符合更具市場競爭的技能培訓課程。四、"},{"start":2680.646,"end":2692.518,"text":"因應政府實現再生能源的目標,規劃辦理太陽能光電實務班。三、班對事實轉型,滿足退出役官兵的需求。因應產業趨勢及市場的職缺,針對本會職訓中心現有班對課程,滾動檢討並調整內容,如下。"},{"start":2700.126,"end":2706.313,"text":"一、影音媒體設計班納入無人機操作攝影課程。二、室內設計實務班將室內設計繪圖班及室內的裝修管理班課程合併。"},{"start":2711.286,"end":2728.462,"text":"三、大數據分析及系統設計班考量產業設計人才需求,課程的時數由600小時調整為904小時。四、互動式的網頁及視覺設計班,增加自媒體的相關課程。科普四規劃一訓多鎮強化職場競爭,中興規劃課程將一訓多鎮納入考量。"},{"start":2734.327,"end":2742.09,"text":"並且輔導考取多張相關技術式證照以提升訓後就業競爭力。五、儲備優質師資提升訓練品質。一、每年度依照需求規劃到企業進行蹲點或進修並且掌握產業趨勢以立課程規劃。"},{"start":2752.045,"end":2763.81,"text":"二、因應就業市場的需求,臨聘外聘兼課老師,並以企業界人才為主,其借重業界的師資,熟悉市場所需技能及就業人脈,提升學員就業機會。目前,業界的師資佔65%。"},{"start":2769.092,"end":2775.818,"text":"六、設備與時俱進打造專業場域為使學員專業能力符合產業所需逐年汰換增購機具設備改善訓練場域落實訓用合一強化職場競爭力七、加強評選機制提升訓練品質評選優良委外的辦訓單位重視辦訓的廠商的辦訓品質良宇為首要考量"},{"start":2794.815,"end":2811.793,"text":"另外以取得TTQS訓練品質平和的等地以及是否通過ICAP職能導向課程認證來納入評分標準提升委外單位辦訓及課程規劃品質。二、就業媒合具體作法或乎依掌握學員的需求提供適性輔導"},{"start":2813.234,"end":2821.58,"text":"一、結訓前我們會進行就業需求的調查並且提供專業職業適性評量及職癌顧問的諮詢。二、安排就業輔導的課程。113年至5月31日已經辦理適性評量157件以及職癌諮詢75件。括弧二、拜會優質企業深化廠商交流。一、"},{"start":2838.103,"end":2845.71,"text":"拜會符合職訓專長的企業,邀請提供職缺優先禁用參訓的學員。112年即拜訪269家廠商,113年至5月31日即拜訪116家廠商。"},{"start":2853.217,"end":2866.47,"text":"二、執行中心的學員來自全國各地,利用親訪、電訪及網絡資源等多重管道,開發全國各縣市在地職缺媒合學員多元就業機會。一百一十二年級開發職缺3934筆,一百一十三年開發1284筆。"},{"start":2873.82,"end":2893.174,"text":"三、辦理廠商代表說明會,邀請有合作意願簽署合作備忘錄及盜班徵才的廠商來深化合作機制。一百一十二年計邀請三十一家廠商,一百一十三年規劃在下半年辦理。括弧三,多元媒合徵才,拓展就業管道。一、加強辦理盜班徵才。"},{"start":2895.031,"end":2922.174,"text":"邀請徵才需求符合職訓專長相關職場環境友善退除役官兵的企業辦理到班徵才並且開發多元的職缺以提高媒合成效。一百一十二年計辦理六十三場次提供職缺一千一百二十一筆出媒兩百三十六人次一百一十三年至五月三十一日子已經辦理七場到班徵才活動提供職缺八十三筆出媒四十人次"},{"start":2923.188,"end":2938.435,"text":"二、與國防部合作辦理專技徵才,針對具資通電專長的官兵,邀請相關企業共同參與,並且依專業的技能、就業市場展望,指來的規劃等進行說明,以協助了解職場的現況,擴大就業媒合成效。"},{"start":2941.736,"end":2952.521,"text":"參加的廠商計有16家提供職缺594筆出沒51人次。三、辦理大型現場徵才活動每一年配合班隊結訓舉辦兩場大型現場徵才活動。112年計邀請廠商124家提供職缺4608個出沒159人次。113年規劃在6月14號以及11月15號辦理兩場次。"},{"start":2969.195,"end":2987.389,"text":"科普四、訓後就業追蹤掌握就業動態一、訓後持續辦理就業追蹤六個月不定期提供就業職缺二、針對尚未就業的學員深入了解未就業的原因提供求職指導職缺資訊或心理支持等必要協助"},{"start":2988.413,"end":3011.311,"text":"括弧五,結合各容服處持續就業輔導。一、主動提供學員名冊共同辦理就業輔導。結合轄區的容服處提供在地協助,結訓時提供學員名冊含送各容服處來協助學員就業。二、持續轉介各地容服處辦理就業輔導。學員在訓後如果未能順利就業,名冊將會轉介轄區的容服處持續提供就業輔導。"},{"start":3016.361,"end":3034.816,"text":"六、運用社會資源增加就業機會。一、與各縣市的政府合作辦理就業媒合,參與桃園市政府每個月舉辦就業媒合活動。另外,透過各地區融服處與當地縣市政府合作辦理增財活動,協助宣傳,增加企業合作機會。"},{"start":3036.26,"end":3050.525,"text":"二、鼓勵學員加入勞動部臺灣就業通網站,主動提供職缺資訊給待業學員。三、職訓中心各項就業的輔導措施致重點在拜會優質企業職缺開發與推介就業。112年分別拜訪269家職缺開發3934筆,成功推介378人次。其餘的成效請參閱下表。四、捷運"},{"start":3062.99,"end":3068.213,"text":"本會持續指導職訓中心精進課程規劃﹐改善職訓環境及增設各種新營教學設備﹐並密切與產學訓各界合作﹐掌握經濟發展趨勢、適切調整訓練職類﹐以及建構一所有專業有特色的優質職業訓練機構。"},{"start":3082.121,"end":3088.228,"text":"積極培訓退除役官兵就業競爭力和提高多元就業媒合率,充分發揮職技訓練及輔導就業之功能,彰顯本會服務照顧退除役官兵與榮民榮券之價值。報告完畢,恭請指導。"},{"start":3111.483,"end":3125.863,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、大家好以下僅就國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案一事說明依前言政府自65年起"},{"start":3126.463,"end":3152.867,"text":"同意退休軍公教人員、得比照現職機關人員、支領子女教育補助費以照顧退休人員。然、立法院審查106年中央政府總預算案時通過決議以當時國家財政困難、基於照顧弱勢及對國家有重大犧牲貢獻之精神交由行政院研議"},{"start":3154.207,"end":3178.333,"text":"軍職退休人員資領資格行政院於106年5月24日合定修正退休軍公教子女教育補助至106年8月1日起退休軍公教子女教育補助申領條件退伍軍人現中校階以下領奉人員近年來本會為擴大服務照顧"},{"start":3179.173,"end":3196.306,"text":"推動各項家會榮民券及退除役官兵之優惠措施如調增親韓榮民子女、就學與午餐補助、開辦微型保險、照顧弱勢家庭推動促進穩定就業津貼、調高就學與職訓及就業考試進修"},{"start":3201.834,"end":3205.195,"text":"以表彰國家對榮民眷及退除役官兵之重視。本會自107年1月29日起"},{"start":3220.12,"end":3237.308,"text":"立任主任委員均表達支持恢復上校街領奉人員子女教育補助以六次報請行政院建議恢復為均考量軍公教衡評等情仍維持現行規定辦理"},{"start":3238.035,"end":3266.152,"text":"大院外交及國防委員會113年4月29日臨時提案決議建請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會有關上校階以上領奉人員子女教育補助費之事應積極研議並爭取本會於113年5月6日第七次建請行政院恢復該補助案行政院課證研議中。二、委員提案"},{"start":3267.13,"end":3290.144,"text":"翁曉玲等18人於113年5月15日提案輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案,晉升上校階以上系屬榮譽,對有心服役軍旅之軍人,政府應肯定並保障其退伍後各項福利與生活。"},{"start":3291.108,"end":3306.738,"text":"並妥適照顧及培育其子女避免差別待遇及相對剝奪感使優質人力長留久用穩固志願役人力提高留營成效更有助於激勵國軍士氣維繫部隊安定"},{"start":3309.139,"end":3335.153,"text":"原提案輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文將退除役官兵符合資領、退休奉、善養金及生活補助費之人員及子女教育補助納入輔導條例。三、預算檢討教育部於113年2月實施拉近公私立學校學雜費差距及其配套措施方案"},{"start":3335.937,"end":3365.215,"text":"減免私立大專學雜費三萬五千元拉近公私立大專學雜費的差距並全面落實高中職免學費本案預算檢討以恢復上校街以上領奉人員一名子女就讀私立大學為例全年補助七萬一千六百元扣除教育部補助的三萬五千元後僅增加三萬六千六百元"},{"start":3366.94,"end":3387.057,"text":"推估恢復上校階以上子女教育補助費,原一學年所需經費約8608萬9千元,扣除教育部補助3503萬5千元,就政府整體預算支出而言,僅增加經費5105萬4千元。祥儒下表請參閱。四、延期意見"},{"start":3393.402,"end":3421.192,"text":"一、支持恢復上校街領奉人員子女教育補助照顧榮民袍責及眷屬減輕生活負擔責無旁貸有鑒於上校街以上人員與國軍各部隊中均擔任重要職務基於對取准從公報勳之肯定本會支持恢復上校街以上領奉人員子女教育補助之發給二、"},{"start":3423.071,"end":3445.65,"text":"盡速恢復教育補助彰顯政府德政。中上檢討建議盡快恢復上校街以上領奉人員子女教育補助以彰顯退除役官兵在軍旅服役期間對國家社會的肯定及鼓舞國軍士氣。對大院審議結果本會敬表尊重。報告完畢恭請指導。"},{"start":3454.915,"end":3483.984,"text":"其他機關對於法律草案之說明請參閱書面資料我們現在開始詢答因為之後還要進行法案審查以及相關的討論所以詢答時間稍微縮短本會委員4加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請弘昇和委員上台質詢"},{"start":3543.342,"end":3543.482,"text":"請言諸位"},{"start":3554.404,"end":3582.058,"text":"黃委員好所以我在你的前一任大鵬主委的時候有曾經質詢他關於我們在退輔會下面其實有很多這個約聘僱的護理人員他其實在計算加班費的時候他因為這個加班費用小時為單位來計算所以很多分鐘的餘數就被當作沒發生過被吃掉了這個狀況那我要先給退輔會"},{"start":3583.319,"end":3587.881,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法》案。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":3612.23,"end":3631.767,"text":"來給退輔會一些掌聲因為這個我們一起跟退輔會完成的這件美事是很重要的但今天跟退輔會的質詢裡面我還是要跟退輔會討論其實除了勞動的權益以外其實我們也非常非常在意退輔會下面員工的這些生命歷程尤其是少數女化的部分的照顧的問題"},{"start":3633.268,"end":3655.867,"text":"那大家可以看到這個我們現在先看到的是北榮他的副社的榮光幼兒園以北榮為例的話目前榮光幼兒園目前看起來只有2到6歲的這個幼童71名那主委你有沒有看到0到"},{"start":3658.052,"end":3675.6,"text":"二歲的部分呢?你覺得?零到二歲目前北龍市沒有設置那我想請問目前整個退輔會的榮總體系有多少家有托嬰中心?就是零到二歲的托嬰中心或者職場保姆?零到二歲目前是台中榮總他有設置"},{"start":3676.3,"end":3677.861,"text":"三家的榮總我們的了解因為他們沒有適當的場地"},{"start":3701.252,"end":3701.733,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":3720.711,"end":3747.078,"text":"所以我們現在看到其實按照衛福部社家署的推估其實社托運中心大概每年營運成本大概780萬初始開辦費大概500萬職場保姆大概100萬左右其實這些相關的費用其實都可以來跟衛福部的員工子女托育服務實施計劃來申請補助其實在經費上面其實都是可以cover的那問題只是要不要有照顧"},{"start":3747.858,"end":3750.859,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法》案。"},{"start":3771.787,"end":3793.645,"text":"所以至少這些大型榮譽是不是應該優先來做包括剛才托嬰中心或者是職場保姆的這個相關的計畫?三個月的時間我可以接受好不好?好那接下來我是想要跟主委討論剛剛說國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂二十七條之二主委你的看法怎樣?"},{"start":3796.391,"end":3818.604,"text":"這個案子我想從107年停掉之後我們一直都有在爭取那主要基於我們退伍會主要職責照顧我們榮民榮眷還有退除役的官兵他們的服務照顧尤其是上校街他們在部隊非常的辛苦而且退伍下去大概都50出頭"},{"start":3819.645,"end":3820.125,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":3842.892,"end":3843.572,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":3864.586,"end":3877.16,"text":"主委我們當然都希望能夠多照顧這些退出役官兵我覺得我們大家的心願是一致的多照顧然後也包括甚至他的子女該照顧的"},{"start":3879.4,"end":3879.8,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":3899.111,"end":3923.2,"text":"這部分我覺得沒有問題但今天大家會比較有疑慮的事情是說適不適合用一個法律案的方式尤其是沒有院版這個只有在立法院裡面的版本用一個法律案的方式來去處理這個問題有沒有違反相關預算法規包括預算法或者財政紀律法種種的問題這是大家比較有疑慮的地方所以"},{"start":3926.397,"end":3932.991,"text":"我認為目標上面大家都希望多照顧可是方法上這真的是好的方法嗎?這真的是對的方法嗎?"},{"start":3934.745,"end":3956.5,"text":"國務委員我們在報告裡面也提到我們希望能夠盡快到底用哪一種方式我想我們都表達尊重大院最後的決議主委你剛才說了我認為今天在這個角度來說照顧沒有問題可是這個方法恐怕用法律明定的方法這部分是有爭議的"},{"start":3958.305,"end":3984.398,"text":"我想行政院也講得很清楚所以這部分確實是需要退輔會這邊要再考慮一下在這個案子裡面的處理方法我要再強調一次目標都希望多照顧可是照顧的方法照顧的路徑用什麼方式來處理這個問題可能有很多條我們應該選擇最好的那一條而不是選擇最爭議的做法我想主委你應該同意吧主委等一下我們大家可能就要來審這個法案"},{"start":3985.979,"end":3987.34,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台諮詢"},{"start":4021.798,"end":4023.479,"text":"退輔會就在就業與就醫的業務哪一個比較重要?"},{"start":4052.048,"end":4080.579,"text":"就業就醫其實我的認知都很重要當然重要當然重要好不好就業跟就醫當然都非常的重要那所以如何申請這個榮民證那根據這個規定取得榮民證的條件是一志願役現役滿十年以上一法退伍這個退除役之軍士官兵"},{"start":4082.034,"end":4104.257,"text":"二、以民國1979年2月9日入營服務志願役金士官以1994年8月9日前入營志願役士官兵經國防證實現役年資符合當時規定。三、因作戰"},{"start":4105.185,"end":4115.534,"text":"或因自病、傷或身心障礙而失去工作能力以退伍除役後"},{"start":4116.545,"end":4129.86,"text":"三、生計艱難需長期醫療或就養。其三產經鑒定合格者。所以這個部分來講退輔會近一年一直積極在推動輔導農民就業根據退輔會的一些報告在職業"},{"start":4136.968,"end":4160.381,"text":"執訓中心辦理的訓練就業率達到九成當然成效不錯所以這個地方加以這個肯定但不少榮民因為退輔會的努力尋找到事業的第二春但是榮民配合退輔會的就業政策後反而在就醫的優惠"},{"start":4161.381,"end":4185.84,"text":"上會有受損根據國軍退除役官兵就醫辦法無子的農民可享有健保錢額補助但是這個有子的農民卻只能獲得部分的健保費的補助所以退輔會這個政策裡面有自相矛盾那我想你在這個地方做一個說明"},{"start":4187.512,"end":4211.88,"text":"關於現行健保部份負擔費用就是退伍的關節有一定的比例上校二十、中、少校五十跟七十、士官跟士兵級是一百那麼我們也了解這些是不太合理我們現在目前由就醫處他們現在正在研擬怎麼修訂這個就醫的辦法"},{"start":4213.58,"end":4239.606,"text":"這個諸位你回答得非常好因為本席認為榮民的身份取得是因為他們對國家的奉獻那與他們有沒有工作無關照顧榮民本來就是退輔會的一個基本的工作那如果需要由此無止區分他們的就醫又會反而並向以懲罰願意將自身能力再一次的奉獻到社會的榮民"},{"start":4240.746,"end":4241.606,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":4263.536,"end":4286.43,"text":"臺北隆重所所屬的義理鳳林及台東醫院因為處於偏鄉及地震颱風後等天然災害在偏鄉醫療的醫療匱乏且沒有大型的醫學中心導致重症患者必須到北宋或南宋所以這個部分我們應該要考量"},{"start":4289.568,"end":4310.198,"text":"本席提醒諸委在東部地區的醫療有多麼缺乏在全台公司立醫學中心有26家北部有15家中部有5家南部有5家東部有一家退輔會在全台有4家的農民"},{"start":4310.998,"end":4312.638,"text":"五家的榮民醫院全都是分院。"},{"start":4335.123,"end":4344.932,"text":"本席希望在退輔會能夠成為花東醫療升級的領頭羊規劃在花東地區能夠設立總院。你認為呢?"},{"start":4353.942,"end":4379.293,"text":"是委員好我是臺北榮民總院李偉強副院長事實上我們對這個事情非常的關心跟委員報告按照衛福部的規劃大概每100萬人口可以有一家的醫學中心因為支持一個醫學中心不容易像臺北榮總、中榮、高榮都在動輒一千床以上的這樣子一個醫院的規模才足以達到醫學中心那是當然跟當地人口有關係現在我們花東的三院當中以急性病床來看"},{"start":4379.833,"end":4381.434,"text":"一般級的重度級急救責任院並採用區域聯防的方法跟其他周邊的大型醫學中心做一個聯合"},{"start":4405.703,"end":4426.933,"text":"這個當然沒有錯在你們制定的人口的人數的一個規定規範之外可是現在我們應該要因地制宜請問一下屏東有沒有超過一百萬沒有吧屏東人口應該目前沒有到一百萬沒有吧對不對有沒有一百萬沒有沒有吧所以"},{"start":4427.711,"end":4429.211,"text":"因為我們已經喊了十幾年了好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":4462.354,"end":4462.974,"text":"沈薄洋委員"},{"start":4488.571,"end":4509.208,"text":"那我就先針對今天幾個題目來做詢問那我前面是先想問就是說這個是比較簡單的一個問題就是說在這個全民防衛之下有這個所謂的動員準備綱領那這個裡面有一個小部分跟退輔會有關所以想問一下退輔會現在的進度我把它秀一下是在這裡"},{"start":4510.069,"end":4522.002,"text":"就是說這邊有提到就是說這個暫時致受傷或身心障礙還有退役軍人的安置就是在倒數第二行有這個highlight這一段所以第一個想問說目前這方面的進度如何"},{"start":4522.881,"end":4547.342,"text":"各位委員報告,我們在5月底之前就已經完成了114年委員所這裡面所刊出來的人力動員準備方案,我們負責的這部分,退輔會負責的這部分,包含動員準備跟動員實施。那我們不管是對退除役的人員的安置,或者是戰傷,所謂的醫療,這些醫療應該是納入衛福部,那其他的就在內政部主持。"},{"start":4549.343,"end":4564.371,"text":"有提到輔導就學就業就醫就養其實跟今天這個主題有點關係所以這個一般照顧等功能任務現在也都還在時程上對不對對好那這個沒有問題那接下來我們就問這個跟今天這個比較有關的因為就剛好牽涉到今天這個題目"},{"start":4565.872,"end":4590.535,"text":"當然在行政院人事行政總署的報告書當時就有提到他們是用關接的身份發給忠孝一下我覺得在場的各位都已經非常的熟悉了這一個目前我們看到這一次的退輔會的報告有提到說大概需要八千萬但教育部這邊可以做個三千萬所以大概是支出五千萬我想確定一下這個部分是正確的嗎就預算支出的部分是正確的"},{"start":4592.216,"end":4610.025,"text":"現在的問題就在於說我覺得以我的立場來講我們對於要對於做這些子女相關就學的一些補助說真的這個我們當然本來都是樂見其成因為對這個退輔會來講本來就是應該多多照顧榮民但是預算這件事情畢竟是行政議題"},{"start":4611.025,"end":4634.366,"text":"就是說我們今天要在這邊增加預算那其他的地方到底要不要等同增加預算如果別人就說那我們也一樣增加類似的預算的時候那整個行政院的這一個預算會提高所以這當然是要考量的事情所以這邊我們還是一樣我覺得看到報告裡面還是要尊重這一個主計還是要尊重整個行政院的看法但對於個別的這一個事件我們當然本來是競表同意但現在問題就出在這裡就是說"},{"start":4636.528,"end":4656.058,"text":"因為我們今天是討論一個二十七條之四嘛他是一個法律案但因為這個法律案直接就等於是增加了預算那這跟我們之前在爭議的花東三法其實是一模一樣的意思嘛就是花東三法那時候就直接說我可能針對這一條鐵路我要花幾億那行政院本來就有提出預算的權利"},{"start":4656.718,"end":4682.956,"text":"所以對於行政院對於退輔會這邊認為預算要多少要怎麼增列我們這邊當然就是如果是這邊提出來我們當然是予以支持但如果是立法院自己去提一個案子增加預算那就已經在侵害了行政院提出預算的權利那這樣行政院可以廢掉算了嗎我們只要留著立法院就好了我們就說今天我們認為哪裡要再補助兩千萬這邊要再補助三千萬那這樣這個國家的財政就不用玩了"},{"start":4683.456,"end":4690.441,"text":"所以在這邊我想確認一下就是在於說目前院裡面這邊的溝通對於這個預算有什麼樣的想法?"},{"start":4713.876,"end":4717.837,"text":"最後一個就是上次剛好在這個問的時候有提到這個黃埔的事情就是去中國的事情"},{"start":4732.962,"end":4752.354,"text":"我看到新聞有提到就是說第一個他們去這邊參加黃埔可以去有中國的門號安裝微信的APP這其實會有金流的問題這有微信支付的問題然後再來甚至可能要辦居住證所以就這一點而言目前退輔會的掌握是什麼那時候因為之前有提到"},{"start":4752.754,"end":4753.254,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":4769.463,"end":4786.609,"text":"報告委員我們針對要賦入的不管是將校我們都會跟他做一些說明尤其是有居住證的你的個資可能外洩因為你要登記所以這些都有個人的一些風險所以特別第一年就是要注意到自己的人身安全"},{"start":4787.549,"end":4794.872,"text":"因為這是一個新的方法就是說因為居住證這個以後它如果比如說它的編號的方式跟中國的是身份證是一樣的它其實就是在做內國法化這件事情它就要把台灣當成中國的一部分這對我們來講是非常嚴重的"},{"start":4814.64,"end":4834.751,"text":"所以今天去的人到底有哪些人有居住證這個在早期中國想做第一次的時候本來陸委會有說是不是要採登記但是因為後來沒有繼續做但所以在這邊退輔會到對這件事情的掌握如何有多少人拿到居住證這可能之後我會詢問先講這一點那第二點就是呢因為這一個前黃富新主委這個紀琳蓮這個"},{"start":4836.952,"end":4857.885,"text":"這是聯合報嗎?好像少了一個字應該是寄靈聯因為兩岸條例九之三這個部分是少將以上的人員去那邊不能做有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為那這邊也是可能要請這個退輔會要對這個相關的宣導因為畢竟什麼叫做妨礙尊嚴的行為雖然第二項有規定但它有一個其他類似的行為這聽起來很寬廣"},{"start":4858.946,"end":4860.067,"text":"三、王定宇召委上台質詢"},{"start":4896.527,"end":4899.276,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩主委請主委"},{"start":4907.222,"end":4925.697,"text":"總委好主委長你一輩子的軍人入軍將領我們有一首軍紀歌開口第一句叫做國家有鋼長嘛我不會叫你在那邊唱給我聽啦那國家有鋼長的意思是指國家是有法律跟秩序的一旦破壞這個法律跟秩序"},{"start":4926.718,"end":4951.663,"text":"以為得利最後會受害所以我們都希望福國利民我們都希望我們照顧的各類族群所有人民都可以多一點好處多一點福利大家都樂見但是必須建立在憲政架構下的制度跟法律還有財政紀律否則用違法違憲的方式去進行丟肉桶的肉桶政治"},{"start":4952.983,"end":4979.431,"text":"獨樹果實,最後受害的是全體人民所以本席今天比較嚴肅的跟主委探討這一點我們都希望退伍袍者,我也樂見退伍袍者多一點照顧我也樂見大家的孩子多一點照顧但是必須建立在這個前提下如果這個前提沒有確定就像我們在部隊唱的軍紀歌國家有鋼長,軍隊有紀律這兩個沒有了,軍隊就不是軍隊國家就不是國家第一個"},{"start":4980.638,"end":5004.239,"text":"什麼是憲法架構下的法律制度跟財政紀律根據我們財政紀律法第五條如果立法委員提法律案要增加政府稅出或減少稅入先具體指明彌補資金來源這個指明還不是指立委說哪裡有錢就可以用哪裡的錢我們看下一條第七條財政紀律法"},{"start":5005.24,"end":5017.718,"text":"修正法律或者像地方在定制法規你不可以增訂固定經費額度或比率保障比如說嚴德發退休之後呢必須佔我們退輔基金裡面10%那你就發了嘛"},{"start":5019.983,"end":5043.613,"text":"不行做這種提案也就是說修正法律不是預算案喔如果有這樣的情形的話其實是不可以的第三個法律預算法第91條立委如果提法律案有增加稅數或減少稅入者要做什麼動作我們要徵詢行政院的意見這也就是為什麼常常在立法院各委員會我們不分藍綠"},{"start":5045.013,"end":5070.429,"text":"資深的委員我們都會提臨時提案啊或者建請案我為什麼不直接提拔變法律叫你把錢拿出來因為那不行我們提臨提後面都會寫請主管機關去研議嘛也就是必須跟行政院徵詢意見所以綜合預算法綜合財政紀錄法立法委員縱使不是提預算案是提修法的法律案"},{"start":5071.309,"end":5075.721,"text":"我不可以增加預算支出如果要增加預算支出要跟行政院"},{"start":5076.92,"end":5077.36,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5104.781,"end":5112.307,"text":"就這個案子立法部門不管哪個黨派有跟行政院進行協調徵詢意見嗎?有還是沒有?就你了解"},{"start":5119.986,"end":5131.774,"text":"行政院主要考量到橫屏性這一塊我們一直跟行政院在做協調未來我想還是按照法定的程序要完成這個"},{"start":5143.462,"end":5146.284,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人發言"},{"start":5172.97,"end":5198.585,"text":"大法官釋字第391號解釋文等同法律本文在這個解釋文就告訴你一件事情立法院不得在預算案之外以委員提案方式增加支出之提議然後呢他裡面還特別想這個意思告訴你說縱使預算案不能提增加之提議預算案之外法律案啦相關案也不可以"},{"start":5199.946,"end":5208.055,"text":"大法官釋憲我們憲法五院的機關國家有綱長我們可以逾越的嗎法律這麼說憲法這麼說大法官釋憲這麼說那我們該怎麼做"},{"start":5214.876,"end":5237.585,"text":"綜合剛才講起來就是立法委員不能提預算增加支出是提議但是如果要這種修法律案做預算增加支出要跟行政機關大家來談這就是我們常常在立法院溝通協調的過程如果立法院認為至愛難行那這樣的提案就會有違憲違法之餘法律條文的基礎在這裡那這個"},{"start":5241.874,"end":5265.504,"text":"我曾經在4月29號提了個臨時提案我也謝謝馬文君、趙偉那時候我們都一起簽署我剛才講我們樂見對退伍的袍澤甚至於他的子女多一些照顧那時候參與連署大家可以看到我們委員會部分黨派都連署另外我上面寫的是這個寫的理由最後是建請退輔會"},{"start":5266.963,"end":5293.509,"text":"去進行相關的研議我為什麼不把它變法律案變法律案現在這credit變我的這成績變我的因為不可以除非跟行政院溝通好所以看是院提立法委員提案或者是立法院行政院的院版這才是過去幾十年來我們中華民國憲政體制下運作的預算跟立法委員職權行事法以及憲政的根據可是現在我們很遺憾"},{"start":5294.81,"end":5314.705,"text":"我們要照顧人方法要對用違憲違法的方式還進行政治操作今天每個委員會都在弄這個我我那個顏主委你當部長國防部長的時候我們合作進行軍改當時軍人年改現役軍人滿意度98%以上甚至還增加"},{"start":5316.421,"end":5336.901,"text":"當時的過程就是按著這個法律來進行的可是如果把特定族群或特定行業的福祉拿來進行政治操作或者製造撕裂對立受害的將是我們退伍的跑者受害的是我們的納稅人得利的是政客"},{"start":5338.004,"end":5350.654,"text":"不可以這樣做所以本席建議我們委員會待會討論這個法律案我們可以好好討論甚至保留但是不是回到法定的程序該跟行政部門行政院好好協商我們好好來談"},{"start":5352.233,"end":5376.535,"text":"或者是因為軍人跟其他的行業確實不一樣我們24小時待命我們又不是做到65歲才能退我們升不上去停留年限到上校42歲、41歲他就退了所以他有他的特殊性就他的特殊性跟行政部門好好談可是今天我們看到的是連動一大堆肉桶法案全部都用立法權逼行政權把錢拿出來違法違憲"},{"start":5378.897,"end":5390.238,"text":"這不叫照顧這叫操弄這違法違憲最後得到的苦果是相關的族群納稅人要承受所以我很敬重嚴主委我都叫你嚴部長"},{"start":5391.584,"end":5408.933,"text":"我們樂見我們當然希望照顧但是請守著合法合憲的方式這才叫國家有鋼長我不知道主委有什麼看法我給你因為我超過了一點時間10秒鐘你簡單回答一下我想我們在報告裡面也提到了第一個我們就希望能夠盡快恢復"},{"start":5409.953,"end":5410.073,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":5437.14,"end":5437.5,"text":"羅美玲委員"},{"start":5461.263,"end":5488.04,"text":"主委好主委我要延續的是王定宇委員剛剛的這個議題那本期認為呢針對這次補助上校街的這個以上領風人員子女教育費這件事情我想在場所有的不管朝野的委員其實都會大力的支持所以王定宇委員才會在4月29號的時候提出一個臨時建議就是建請就在行政院整體預算支出不增加的情況之下呢建請我們退輔會呢"},{"start":5490.061,"end":5509.26,"text":"有關這上校節以上領奉人員子女教育費補助的事情應該積極來爭取然後促進退伍跑者的這個權益而且那天其實有十位的立法委員不分朝野其實都連署支持那接著翁曉玲委員也提出了一個法律案就是直接修法了"},{"start":5509.56,"end":5516.003,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案案。．三、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":5539.552,"end":5567.592,"text":"兩位委員都有提出了相關關心我們上校階以上這個李鳳子女子女教育費的這個用的這個方式是不一樣一個就是用臨時提案建議的方式建請的方式其實這整個主導權還是回到我們行政單位回到我們的輔導會可是直接修法直接要我們的退輔會你就是要來增加在法律案來講好像"},{"start":5568.493,"end":5583.943,"text":"要用法律來增加預算這個真的就像王地宇委員所講的這憲法上其實是違憲的那怎麼違憲其實剛剛王地宇委員也說得非常的清楚如果說我們來看這個大法官391號我們針對這憲法63條63條他是認為說立法院呢"},{"start":5593.427,"end":5606.401,"text":"他我們是有這個審議預算案的權利可是呢我們還是要受到憲法第七十條立法院對行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議所以這個部分我們還是要守著這是憲法規定"},{"start":5610.785,"end":5632.488,"text":"所以說我是覺得說這個部分今天要來審我也覺得非常的疑惑我也跟很多的委員都一樣我們可以用法律案來增加預算嗎這是一個很大的這個爭議我們都支持我們都支持這個上校接以上他們的子女能夠回復到這個補助的部分可是要用什麼樣的方法來補助"},{"start":5634.309,"end":5652.173,"text":"這個違不違憲、合不合法、適不適法我想這個非常的重要那當然剛剛主委您的回覆您的對這個王定宇委員的回覆其實讓我們還是沒有聽到一個真正的答案你到底要用怎麼樣的方式來做處理那今天待會馬上就要審這一條了那我們就要讓他這樣子過了嗎可是如果這樣過的話其實他實際上是違憲的"},{"start":5657.774,"end":5658.455,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":5674.295,"end":5693.248,"text":"草案三讀通過也是要經過總統公佈才有效力。那麼我們輔導會會按照輔導條例27條之二還有第33條第二項的規定我們會要訂定一個辦法但是訂出來之後還是要送行政院還是要送行政院然後行政院核定之後"},{"start":5694.088,"end":5694.788,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5717.189,"end":5730.02,"text":"主委,我們應該還是要有個態度,好的方法我們來處理對的事情,我想這一點非常的重要。再來的話我要提到的就是有關於榮民之家。"},{"start":5732.458,"end":5748.577,"text":"我有看到就是我們榮民之家的資源是不是可以有進一步有效的這個來做利用那像我們的第一代的榮民其實是逐漸的這個凋零了那當然榮民之家的佔床率是越來越低"},{"start":5748.917,"end":5765.526,"text":"我們有看到到去年的這個七月份為止其實我們的這樣戰場率其實都是低於80%其實這麼多年以來就是因為剛才我所提到就是第一代榮民逐漸的這個凋零所以榮民之家是不斷的在做轉型好像早期的話我們都是公費就養"},{"start":5766.607,"end":5766.967,"text":"二十五歲以上的民眾申請自費入住。"},{"start":5783.075,"end":5783.435,"text":"一百零六年我們那個時候"},{"start":5810.643,"end":5828.144,"text":"總體的床位是8283床,那站床數是6700,就站床率大概是81,那個時候是81,超過80了。那中間當109年因為新冠疫情的關係,有些管制的措施,所以他會往下降往下滑。"},{"start":5829.525,"end":5852.778,"text":"一百一十三年到今年我們的整個的床位是八千八就床位數增加是床位增加可是增加了所以他站床的還是就沒有超過八十七十八是這個這個原因呢因為我知道說像我們呃榮民之家說實在的我們那個呃我有看到之前的這價格的話其實比市面上我們大概就是會比市面少個一半"},{"start":5853.618,"end":5855.759,"text":"一般民眾已經從5%提到17%現在大概有1000多床1500多床"},{"start":5881.277,"end":5882.018,"text":"現在請林楚英委員上台諮詢"},{"start":5910.231,"end":5913.994,"text":"主席,有請原主委。主委,您投身軍旅大概多少年了?快50年了。我想這個帶兵最重要的"},{"start":5931.178,"end":5959.952,"text":"有許多的守則啦當然效忠國家啦然後盡好自己的義務之外我想如何帶兵能夠帶的行除了帶兵要帶心之外我想現有的法令跟法規這個一定是放在前面因為不論我們在之前我們在跟國防部啦或相關部會討論相關的法規的時候都是希望能夠幫軍人來爭取他應有的權利跟保障但是呢賞罰分明一直也都是的包括之前我有講到有關於退將這個要追回有關於"},{"start":5960.832,"end":5961.233,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":5977.316,"end":6004.773,"text":"的這些軍官將領們他們的子女的這個就學的這個費用其實就有多一筆預算了所以我認為我再次的鼓勵您但是我自己提到剛剛也很多委員都已經講了就這樣吧剛剛提案的這個委員呢翁曉玲委員他是用憲法增修條文第十條第九項他說國家應該尊重軍人對社會之貢獻及其退役後之就學就業就醫就養"},{"start":6006.894,"end":6030.829,"text":"好我特別把對其退役後對其這兩個意思翻成中文的白話文應該就是對他個人是吧所以我們今天討論的是他的子女我覺得如果說要這樣子無限去擴大或擴張的話我認為今天在這邊討論這些法律案那麼基本上他的出發點就是錯誤的如果說是一個錯誤的出發點的善意"},{"start":6031.806,"end":6053.814,"text":"那會變成是惡意我相信這個您一定知道同樣的憲法第七十條立法院對於行政院所提出來的預算是不可以增加支出只能做相關的意見之建議前面從王定宇委員從沈伯洋委員再到羅美玲委員我們都一致認同必須要給"},{"start":6055.114,"end":6066.119,"text":"退役的將領他們必要的保障以及他們應該應有的福利但是就像我拿出來的憲法第10條跟現在第70條第10條講的是給予保障"},{"start":6070.492,"end":6096.358,"text":"保障是給他應該要有的權益但是是不是要用違反第七十條的方式去增加支出尤其現在您雖然身為退輔會的主委我相信今天的整體的國會詢答一定有非常多退輔的弟兄們在看著但是守法尤其是遵守國家最高的法律的憲法的這個部分您過去軍旅五十年"},{"start":6097.577,"end":6126.668,"text":"那麼現在我把這兩個法規拿出來所以我們等一下要修這個法規的時候這個法到底該不該修或者是說其實請您回去跟行政院在整體的預算上面做一個盤整跟爭取這兩個方式您選擇哪一個報告委員當然基本上大前提是不能違憲憲法是國家根本大法是最上游的這一定要在符合憲法的精神之下我們來推動這個工作"},{"start":6128.112,"end":6149.327,"text":"所以對您來講以您身為退輔會的主委跟我們今天在場所有國防朝野的立委想法都是一樣的我們希望為退休的將領在他的子女或者是他的家眷各方面我們給予保障但是一切就是以不違法合法為原則否則這樣爭取來的"},{"start":6151.55,"end":6168.057,"text":"保障不是真的保障,爭取來的也不是真正榮譽該給的,尤其是對於這些一向是軍人榮譽為第一,我認為這個方法絕對不是正確的,但是有一些部分可以不用修法,那麼現在是我等一下來關心的,來下一張。"},{"start":6169.468,"end":6181.826,"text":"本席一直非常關心我們榮家的一些相關的問題我之前提到的是有關於我們榮家相關的一些費用的部分退還的部分來我來考一下我們這個"},{"start":6183.646,"end":6201.665,"text":"主委容加A容加B容加C戰床723戰床數393還有戰床數只有147的你知道他們各自的保險金額是多少嗎基本上我先給主委主委大概知道我們公共意外的保險主要是避免第三責任險的這個部分能夠給予這些"},{"start":6204.207,"end":6204.267,"text":"二、審查報告"},{"start":6216.087,"end":6216.787,"text":"目前我們是依照老服機構設立的標準來保險我們是101人以上"},{"start":6234.957,"end":6237.939,"text":"長復法規定是100人以下、101人以上、200人以上有三個級距。目前我們保險金明關係就是7400萬總保險金額。目前16所農家有8所農家已經達到7400萬。後續我們參考長照法的規定。"},{"start":6256.052,"end":6266.855,"text":"我前面為什麼先講這個是因為要修法然後甚至於違法才能做到的事情呢你們很努力的在爭取但是這個不用修法你們好好的就延續比較好的法規來做的你們趕快改剛剛的A是桃園的容家他其實呢他的保險金額只有540但是他站床是627中章的容家他393但是他的保險金額8400"},{"start":6283.34,"end":6287.441,"text":"人比較多但是保險金額比較低就是因為你剛剛講的用的是老服的機構的相關的法規但是我們長照機構其實是有分層來處理所以我希望你們可以不用修法的趕快就換一個比較好的法規好不好"},{"start":6300.385,"end":6302.947,"text":"就用我們長靠肌肉的服務法分作100人、200人、201人因為這些保障不只是保障住進去的這些榮眷、榮民朋友又或者是一般的民眾好嗎?所以我希望你們如何來全面的檢視這些法令然後以從優的法規來處理就好了我相信這個是你們相關的主管機關就可以做得到的"},{"start":6324.38,"end":6324.66,"text":"主委請主委"},{"start":6355.794,"end":6355.981,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":6359.97,"end":6385.271,"text":"陳委員好主委好 主委早所以我們這個退輔會有三大農場三大高山農場是哪三大高山農場三大農場我們有武陵然後清境跟福壽山都非常有名那也都是觀光的重要的據點那可惜我覺得我們嘉義的分廠的部分它的觀光問題就比較可惜了"},{"start":6387.134,"end":6397.264,"text":"張化農場在嘉義分場在大埔鄉曾文水庫旁邊,坐落在觀光索西拉雅國家風景區的範圍內,在選區大埔鄉藍色公路的重要觀光景點。"},{"start":6406.053,"end":6433.201,"text":"其實我覺得非常可惜因為其實我們剛才提到的那三個高山農場那當然大家都會忽略到嘉義其實有一個這麼優美的地方那也是由退輔會來去經營的我是希望說我們嘉義的分廠能夠受到更大的注目那有一天可以讓退輔會的三大高山農場來增加多一個絕景就四大農場那這樣當然是我們作為觀光的一個重要的據點可是我們知道嘉義的分廠有委外經營過"},{"start":6434.161,"end":6459.536,"text":"那過去這一二十年那又經歷過風災還有疫情等等因素那逐漸的沒落甚至有成為蚊子管你看這一個這一個好POWER POINT那說鄭文水顧風景區荒廢養蚊子我想請教主委針對這個招商活化的部分未來觀光規劃的部分是不是可以簡單的說明一下如果主委對這個議題不守也可以請其他的官員來去回應"},{"start":6461.437,"end":6481.278,"text":"謝謝委員關心,我們嘉義農場的規劃,未來還是以促餐的方式來吸引民間投資,那未來就是多元化模式經營,朝向觀光還有農業,一起來其路並進,吸引投資者的參與來經營,我們預計是在今年的八月會上網公告。"},{"start":6482.219,"end":6511.136,"text":"所以就之後不會是由退輔會直接經營?促餐嗎?是,我們事業處處長跟你說的委員好,我是事業處處長目前為止我們已經有許多家廠商有意願來用促餐的方式來進行有幾家?大概幾家?目前為止有六家有六家廠對,那我們也會結合就是您剛剛提的藍色公路的計畫來做我們也跟嘉義縣的政府跟西太亞的風管處來合作,強力合作現在這個機制已經建立起來了"},{"start":6511.476,"end":6511.716,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":6530.566,"end":6531.667,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人發言"},{"start":6552.108,"end":6552.508,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":6572.114,"end":6575.056,"text":"目前有七所農家有設置的專區有五百多床"},{"start":6600.276,"end":6600.916,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":6618.82,"end":6646.739,"text":"他有提到說在現階段的計劃其實有延宕的狀態那在巴德、雲林、高雄、馬蘭這等等四所農家裡面有針對工程設計還有包包導致落後而且甚至是因應這個物價提高還要增加經費四千多萬元那我想請教一下針對剛才我說了是田地部提出來的問題退輔會有哪些檢討的措施那並且他的各項工程的進度怎麼樣再說一下"},{"start":6648.28,"end":6664.289,"text":"餵好,我是救援養護處長周英國目前我們整個專案裡面是六所農家有這個工程那111年彰化農家他已經整建完成了還有五所農家他都已經完成發包統包的工程目前按進度來做我們每個禮拜"},{"start":6665.61,"end":6684.413,"text":"對於開設工程檢討會來掌握這個工程的進度那後續大概是在114年年底大概都預化可以竣工只有部分的農家像板橋農家當初他發報的時候延後了大概六個月可能在115年年初可以完成這個以上報告"},{"start":6685.43,"end":6700.048,"text":"對我剛才在提到齁這因應這個物價還有這些這些基本的這些原料的費用都會因應的提高啦所以說拜託齁在這個規劃的時候齁發包的時候這可以完整的去做因為我們剛才提到"},{"start":6700.989,"end":6724.869,"text":"總共這個傳位是佔全國失職傳位的六成以上所以齁這一個洞見觀瞻啦所以只要是有延宕那就等於是你找了這個黃金的時間點那進出的傳位或者是這些要撫養的這些家人他的負擔就這些時間點就沒有辦法來去做嘛那所以我還是希望可以加快這些速度有效的去改善好不好這可以去承諾來去做嗎可以謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6732.062,"end":6733.883,"text":"主席好,有請主委。請主委。委員好。"},{"start":6758.113,"end":6786.392,"text":"主委好因為這是你第二次擔任會的主委對你來講應該是蠻熟悉的工作然後上任到現在已經大概三週的時間了北京市想要提醒你一下就是說你現在上去看各地榮家和榮福處的網頁看的時候還是會發現上面是我們前任主委大鵬水筆的專欄還在上面所以我希望雖然大鵬主委是也很照顧我們農民但是也受到大家敬重雖然是提醒一下主委說記得要去更新網頁"},{"start":6788.714,"end":6809.766,"text":"謝謝委員接下來我們進入正題退伍會的任務就是照顧退除役官兵但是有些官兵退除役之後還是在壯年的時期所以現在的時候輔導會的執訓中心功能就是非常重要了那想請問一下輔導會執訓中心本身就是一個專門屬於榮民的人力銀行所以你應該認同這個說法吧對認同"},{"start":6812.861,"end":6833.194,"text":"好那我們現在如果是說知道現在要找工作的話其實有很多管道嘛好像一般找工作的時候像手機拿起來可能數字上面的求職網站可能是104啊111啊518591的人力銀行或是APP其實都可以很快的瀏覽到各種工作那本席想要建議主委就是輔導會其實可以考慮跟這些求職網站的人力銀行合作在網頁"},{"start":6837.597,"end":6837.637,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":6867.517,"end":6873.983,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":6892.641,"end":6919.333,"text":"當然我們也依據花東地區之類的需求跟民間合作委辦在那邊做質詢能夠滿足他們在不需要跑到西部或是跑到北部這個就是我下一個問題就是說我先想要請問一下主委因為你當過國防部長所以你很清楚原住民是報考國軍志願役最主要的族群所以那主要的原住民的最多的城市是哪幾個城市呢"},{"start":6922.939,"end":6924.902,"text":"花蓮和台東是台灣原住民人口比例最高的地方,花蓮有三成,台東縣三成其人口幾乎都是原住民。"},{"start":6937.739,"end":6937.859,"text":"二、審查報告"},{"start":6959.967,"end":6966.152,"text":"幾乎都是沒有的所以我覺得要照顧到花東地區的退除役官兵是不是花東地區那邊也沒有第二專長的職業訓練是不是會很不公平呢而且現在最近的天災的情況下然後花東地區這些退除役官兵其實在時間上的花費還有金錢上的成本其實比西部高出很多"},{"start":6981.624,"end":6982.085,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6999.349,"end":7003.39,"text":"委員好我是就學就業處處長跟委員報告其實我們在花東地區剛有講過我們在花東地區其實在過去三年我們有開班開了六個班訓兒也有190個人那事實上我們還有個手段就是在地參訓在地就業我想我們不用走車勞頓跑到我這個執訓中心或到西岸來受訓我們過去這個三年也培訓了五百個人次用執訓補助的管道"},{"start":7028.158,"end":7028.478,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人發言"},{"start":7048.726,"end":7048.786,"text":"臺北榮總副院長"},{"start":7078.626,"end":7081.169,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7084.11,"end":7103.044,"text":"根據本席瞭解臺北榮總在花蓮有一個育理分院嘛他是在我們花蓮的南區然後地處是非常的偏鄉所以是花蓮南區其實是很規模的精神科的教學醫院還有一般綜合的地區的醫院但是因為那個地方人才招募的困難所以因為花東地區長期的交通不方便還有醫療人員的薪水不夠所以相對的很多醫生不願意到那個地方去毫無熱情所以造成花東偏鄉人力的缺乏"},{"start":7113.852,"end":7117.356,"text":"但是我最近接受了陳情就是有一個御理分院的復健科隸屬外科部然後原本復健科的醫師已經在112年年底離職了113年1月有一個到御理分院支援的蘇澳榮民復健科醫師也在明天"},{"start":7130.649,"end":7130.949,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7149.244,"end":7149.624,"text":"一般的外科醫師"},{"start":7166.323,"end":7166.503,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":7190.674,"end":7191.456,"text":"這些的話如果有改善的話應該可以造福更多花蓮南區的榮民榮眷的一般他們的健康"},{"start":7199.417,"end":7200.517,"text":"所以6月14日之後是還有一個復健科醫師會過去支援對不對?"},{"start":7229.388,"end":7229.729,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":7259.966,"end":7261.767,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請嚴主委主委早,就今天我們特別針對國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二國軍上校接領奉人員恢復子女教育補助費的部分我想今天有很多委員在關切"},{"start":7288.368,"end":7301.974,"text":"那動不動就拿憲法跟增加預算來洋洋灑灑的說一堆然後又說支持然後又拿這個來壓我想這個真是嚴重了那年金改革的時候沒有違憲嗎?追溯既往對以前承諾的沒有違憲嗎?"},{"start":7308.717,"end":7335.388,"text":"今天負責我們現役軍人的國防部負責退役軍人的退輔會還有所有朝野的立法委員都支持都贊成就行政院不贊成那立法院應該怎麼樣今天所有的民意還包括主責單位都認為應該要好好的照顧軍人行政單位就是不願意那立法委員可以怎麼樣"},{"start":7336.408,"end":7341.137,"text":"行政院如果不尊重民意的話那立法委員能幹嘛動不動拿憲法跟那個預算來講然後又說支持那到底他們要做什麼"},{"start":7349.537,"end":7369.521,"text":"有什麼不能過的嗎?年金改革這麼嚴重的事說過就過我們今天看人事行政局說明反對的原因他是因為說在106年通案決議照顧弱勢的精神兼顧國家整體資源之合理性分配所謂的橫貧原則是真的橫貧嗎?所有的軍人我相信"},{"start":7375.362,"end":7398.88,"text":"主委也是過去榮民我們希望他是一個榮譽的標誌當你們拋家棄子在為國家守護的時候你們能夠做的因為有很多到商校的階段因為我先講人事行政局說明反對的這個原因這根本就是倒贏為果胡說八道"},{"start":7400.101,"end":7409.633,"text":"因為像退輔會所述的政府在65年的時候就已經同意退休的軍公教比較限職機關人員支領子女教育補助費他不是現在突然要增加他以前就有"},{"start":7416.201,"end":7417.163,"text":"是在106年當時執政黨在強推年金改革的時候人數優勢強勢表決本來要全數刪除國軍領奉人員子女的教育補助費因為很多包括"},{"start":7431.664,"end":7432.525,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":7461.321,"end":7486.11,"text":"軍人因為服役的特性你說公教人員或其他的機關人員也要比照他們可以做到65歲軍人你在服役的時候因為他的服役特性國家要維持部隊輕壯的人力所以要求他們要提早退伍在中年要轉職可是在很多的子女其實他都還是在就學的階段"},{"start":7487.492,"end":7504.564,"text":"因為要晚婚啊之前的作息或者其實常常會影響到他們可能結婚的意願或者他的很多條件的限制所以就這個部分我們特別提出來今天他只是給法源"},{"start":7506.364,"end":7529.491,"text":"這今天是給法院哪裡是增加預算大家如果還記得的話三年前為了要跟國外做一些什麼退伍軍人的交流編了兩個人兩個人喔他可以出國回去做交流的費用還有辦公費還有薪水這兩個人領了我們國家多少預算1727萬"},{"start":7533.8,"end":7549.299,"text":"這是應該的嗎?人家在軍中付出那麼久,我們在斤斤計較,你今天所有的行政院說要給一些獎學金還有其他絕大費的補助的時候,為什麼你們都沒有去考慮到其他的因素?"},{"start":7550.532,"end":7571.751,"text":"所以我們今天特別要提出來不要拿憲法或什麼增加預算來講今天如果連執政黨的委員都認同那找出方法來找出法源來以前過去的很多案例行政單位常常就是說無法源跟依據所以沒有辦法依法行政我們今天就是給你法源啊如果大家都支持的話行政院反對什麼"},{"start":7575.154,"end":7600.881,"text":"所以我們想今天如果說就這個部分不要拿很多的條件如果覺得非常重要尤其現在兩岸兵凶戰委軍人這個也不行那個也不行去哪裡也受到限制那有一些福利要給的時候又意見很多這是我們今天特別要提出來修法的要提出來增加這個法源的一個很重要的一個因素"},{"start":7602.012,"end":7602.232,"text":"有報告委員"},{"start":7625.317,"end":7630.123,"text":"我們現在的獎學金還有,獎助金有,就學補助的部分公立大學的有,"},{"start":7638.666,"end":7640.587,"text":"那要退輔會做什麼今天要退輔會做什麼今天衛福部也有很多的醫院那我們還是有榮民醫院今天那個勞動部"},{"start":7662.995,"end":7668.457,"text":"他有很多的職訓的專班那我們也有這些訓練的這些專班不是因為其他的部會有我們就應該要把它取消掉你應該要做得更好因為這是榮民的福利而且他身為榮民受到這樣的照顧這是一種榮譽所以你不要動不動就這個減那個減那要退輔會做什麼"},{"start":7685.014,"end":7685.514,"text":"五月七號的時候"},{"start":7711.004,"end":7715.927,"text":"退輔會員其實在基金會針對112學年度第二學期親韓榮民子女就學補助名單總共有1015位可是我們接到不少的反應就是能夠符合這個資格的其實他本身就是親韓的家庭"},{"start":7730.799,"end":7751.291,"text":"那我們現在基金會因為6月6號發出一個公告主要是因為基金會董事會的異動因為董事長不做了嘛李文忠不做了嘛所以你現在這個獎助學金侵含家庭學生的這樣子的一個獎學金你居然停發那什麼時候要發他就是需要這些錢啊"},{"start":7755.728,"end":7779.415,"text":"跟委員報告不是停發我們會發那你要什麼時候發為什麼只有董事長不做我們現在就暫停為什麼跟委員報告我們現在董事現在正在進行準備要補學這跟蔣學金你已經核准的這1000多位親含蔣學金跟董事會的異動有差嗎你這是例行性的工作啊是跟委員報告因為"},{"start":7780.655,"end":7804.88,"text":"董事長是法人代表我們所有的銀行的定存存擔相關的經費都是用董事長的帳來做開付所以因為現在董事長懸缺我們目前沒有辦法暫時沒有辦法發出去所有的基金會所有的很多的企業公司其實都會突然發生這樣的事情如果這樣那就什麼都不能做那"},{"start":7806.152,"end":7811.174,"text":"對於他們來說在他們要繳錢或者他們在這樣需求的時候他拿不到錢這對很多家庭會造成影響想辦法解決好不好如果你選不出來勒你像上一次有董事長鬧雙胞的時候拖了很久欸"},{"start":7834.462,"end":7854.138,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7858.221,"end":7885.596,"text":"我們下面請鍾嘉斌委員質詢。主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府金剛長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請嚴主委以及質詢中心官主任。"},{"start":7886.508,"end":7905.67,"text":"請言主委還有關主任處長要上來有沒有歡迎委員好主委好處長好主任好主委您過去在國防部長任內對這樣的新聞您不陌生在前幾天我們看到了說美軍要部署無人機地獄有沒有看到這樣的新聞"},{"start":7906.553,"end":7917.74,"text":"有新聞有看到那這個地域他形容說用無人機載具能來增加對岸犯台的這樣一個成本好那你所知道目前我們國防部是在增加培訓無人機的飛手"},{"start":7918.905,"end":7936.979,"text":"你有沒有大概略有所知我知道那您覺得目前估計啊國軍未來五年內會培育多少無人機的飛手這個數字我不是很清楚不清楚那你們有沒有去推估我知道國軍這五年來他是要培訓一些無人機的飛手"},{"start":7941.123,"end":7952.777,"text":"其實就3月27號我們在外交國防委員會國防部報告國軍無人機運用的現況至少要採購三千架各型那五年內要培養超過四千名合格飛手那這樣你有概念了齁"},{"start":7954.352,"end":7972.06,"text":"那表示說未來我們的國軍弟兄擬有這樣的技能的相當多那這些人他終究會退伍嘛是不是那退役之後他要轉業那麼請問我想請教一下目前對於未來往下看齁我們退役的飛手如何去銜接就業目前有沒有個想法有想法那能不能說明一下簡單說明一下"},{"start":7978.493,"end":7980.175,"text":"委員好好我是就業處處長事實上我們針對像這個無人機它有專長的訓練它現在整個國家產業非常多多用到無人機這個這個技術民間產業很多對所以我們會去針對它有專技我們有個專技專才活動會去針對未來預測那你們現在有在進行調查了嗎"},{"start":7998.218,"end":8021.959,"text":"現在因為我們這幾年是開始在執訓中心大量的培訓執訓中心說明一下你們現在有開始針對哪些行業需要用到無人機的飛手或者說無人機需要保修的一個服務嗎?有沒有去調查了?現在在智慧農業或是攝影部分無人機攝影部分這些部分我們目前都有跟業界在接觸有需要人力我們這邊那你知道我們屏東農業直保機需要多少嗎?"},{"start":8023.311,"end":8037.672,"text":"需要多少飛手嗎?你有沒有跟相關的業者接觸過?你知道全台灣目前有多少的飛手培訓學校?民間的。你知道目前哪些科技大學有在做無人機的飛手培訓跟課程的研發?知不知道?"},{"start":8038.585,"end":8066.676,"text":"這個沒有統計好來 那個 主委就是這樣子齁所以其實啊我們整個退伍會跟國防部他的人力運用上是相輔相成的當我們招募了一批新的具有技能的官兵的時候其實我們要預設他的第二春他退役下來之後轉業要做好人生 死涯的規劃所以他進來我們國家服務從事投身軍旅他其實上知道他退下來之後退伍會會幫他有這樣的安排這是一條線的你在徵募的時候"},{"start":8067.156,"end":8067.496,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":8087.368,"end":8087.869,"text":"好,那麼他的媒合就業率呢"},{"start":8103.057,"end":8115.784,"text":"因為他這個都是短期班我們沒有做相關統計我建議你們要納入統計啦因為你們訓出來當然要就業嘛那主委你看我這邊查到的資料呢預計今年6月20日預計入許20人有超過110人報名欸蠻夯的欸"},{"start":8121.207,"end":8146.26,"text":"這是給誰報名?給即將退伍的弟兄嘛,退的弟兄嘛,是不是這樣?所以說,我們現在看到了,未來我們國軍弟兄有很多具有這樣的專業職能,他需要怎樣?轉弦服務。那未來呢,我們的國軍弟兄沒有這樣的專業職能呢,他退伍之後,如果你給他這樣訓練,他可以找到這樣的工作。所以這個案子呢,要請你們來研究好了,往下看。那所以呢,目前我們來看一下,這是無人機的基本概念飛行原理。我們在屏東,我們就有相關的無人機協會。"},{"start":8147.401,"end":8158.215,"text":"平東縣政府甚至有一個專用的機場小型的供他們使用那這個要請你們資源去掌握最後因為時間的關係往下看所以呢今年還有兩班預計入局多少處長"},{"start":8160.755,"end":8183.348,"text":"我們預計兩個班是60人是好那顯然的有一百一十人要報名兩二十人的班所以主委最後的結論我不要再用太多時間是不是請主委可以具體的來承諾因應著國家戰備的需求我們未來的官兵當中具有無人機技能操作技能的相當多未來請退伍會把這個列入他們退役後"},{"start":8184.008,"end":8184.128,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":8212.449,"end":8212.509,"text":"主席"},{"start":8237.301,"end":8262.791,"text":"徐委員好您好那我想今天大家都非常關心這個恢復退伍上校階以上的子女教育補助費嘛那我們在這個報告裡面看到想請您口頭說明一下再次說明一下如果說恢復的話那需要增加的經費是多少原來是八千六百多萬那現在恢復之後整個是五千多萬"},{"start":8263.59,"end":8292.249,"text":"五千多萬所以其實五千多萬對於整個我們國家政府來說並不是一個非常大的一個數字喔所以當時2017年去取消的時候呢我想問一下就是說雖然當時不是您做退輔會的這個主委但是您有沒有去關心過2017年為什麼行政院要去取消那才會引發了非常多的不滿那我們今天才會討論到說是不是要入法或者是說要用怎麼樣的方式去爭取恢復的這個問題"},{"start":8293.69,"end":8311.204,"text":"行政院當時為什麼要卡住當時的退輔會主委馮世寬要爭取恢復這個部分?委員好,我是退輔局副處的處長。105年那個蔡政府上台的時候在執行年金改革"},{"start":8311.764,"end":8333.384,"text":"那在105年年底審查106中央政府總預算的時候針對軍公教的退休人員支援教育補助費在委員會審查的時候都做了保留送院會來處理所以在那一年的院會做成了一個決議就是針對公教"},{"start":8334.685,"end":8336.366,"text":"那當時馮士寬主委是不是有說要爭取恢復這件事情?有"},{"start":8361.42,"end":8378.551,"text":"有,那最後在哪裡被卡住的?為什麼後來沒有辦法爭取成功?我們陸陸續續報了6次,包含今年4月29號第7次,那含在這個行政院在研議當中,那因為基於軍公教橫貧性的一個考量"},{"start":8378.891,"end":8395.053,"text":"但軍公教畢竟是不一樣的嘛軍人跟公教人員的職業然後以及性質我覺得還是差異蠻大所以我們才會提說為什麼要提到這個所謂的修法的部分是因為今天即便是我們可能透過這個我們的委員們的提案"},{"start":8395.734,"end":8422.976,"text":"那去做爭取就算是爭取到如果沒有入法的話誰知道哪一天突然又被取消了呢這是很多人的擔憂所以我們看到這一次的這個草案裡面27條之二翁曉玲委員所提出的修訂部分他只提到了這個其子女教育補助費是由輔導會補助之他在裡面並沒有說要補助多少金額所以剛才很多民進黨的委員在講說這個事情是違憲的時候我心裡也打上很大的問號"},{"start":8423.777,"end":8440.666,"text":"因為像我過去在台北市議會的時候我們也有在修一個叫做重陽進老金的自治條例裡面呢當時台北市政府也認為說那這是不是屬於增加支出之提議那認為說是不是有違憲的問題最後發函到行政院之後呢說沒有違憲的問題因為"},{"start":8441.747,"end":8442.128,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":8456.704,"end":8457.064,"text":"二、審查本院委員嚴德發報告"},{"start":8482.81,"end":8509.929,"text":"也讓我們的這一些軍官朋友我們的這一些榮眷們他們可以比較安心那再來最後我想問一個問題就是各位我們6月16號就是黃埔軍校的百年校慶那親愛的京城市黃埔的校訓那我想要請問大家請問您一下可不可以趁這個機會跟我們說明一下黃埔他是如何創立在哪裡創立今天黃埔要創校百年你覺得黃埔的精神到底是什麼"},{"start":8512.315,"end":8517.464,"text":"黃埔是在民國十三年廣州市長洲島統立的。那麼孝遜是親愛京城。這個是"},{"start":8523.959,"end":8527.661,"text":"那當時黃埔在創立的時候參與過的戰役大概您知道的有哪一些?"},{"start":8543.926,"end":8547.989,"text":"所以它是一個一脈相傳的概念從我們整個中國的歷史上面來說那包含是從包含最重要的抗日"},{"start":8562.6,"end":8581.532,"text":"所以黃埔軍校的抗日老兵說過記住歷史才能讓後人自強不息所以今天這個6月16號就是黃埔建軍的一百週年國防部也編列了這個紀念冊那我們希望就是說國防部我們要慶祝一百週年的這個系列活動那我們也擴大了就是編列4400萬來辦理那我們要"},{"start":8584.514,"end":8586.375,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":8602.739,"end":8603.039,"text":"好,謝謝主委。"},{"start":8631.114,"end":8632.855,"text":"還有人事總署的副總會常事"},{"start":8669.284,"end":8683.513,"text":"兩位長官好今天就是審查翁曉玲委員擬具的退伍條例二十七條之二我們看到這個條例當初大家都看到"},{"start":8685.239,"end":8709.136,"text":"這個數字歷史可以說不化4月29號這個本委員會王定宇委員資深的這個外交國防委員提出來的補助會那個單子我都看了就不印了我就不印了臨時提案他提案我看到馬文俊也簽字了林竹英委員也簽字不分黨派都支持啊"},{"start":8710.287,"end":8738.05,"text":"但是6月5號又提出來說這個有立法權強迫行政院增加預算的疑慮建立修改行政命令這個所以好今天來講的話我們知道行政命令位置比較低嘛當然就修法今天這個法呢歐委員所提到這個法我就請教這個原主委要退伍的立場是怎麼樣"},{"start":8740.219,"end":8740.8,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":8751.977,"end":8770.874,"text":"我們基本上認為因為這是軍公教待遇這是軍公教的一個福利措施那這個退休人員部分不應該把它定在法律上面這個應該是屬於行政院的一個權責在處理所以我們建議這個部分應該是由行政院這邊來做處理而不是把它錄到一個退伍法裡面以上報告"},{"start":8772.396,"end":8792.247,"text":"為什麼你的權力可以大超過立委啊?要不要立法我們立委在修法立法多少都是把行政命令權力位階不夠拉到變成一個法律位階我們一天到晚在做這個事啊怎麼會你有這麼大的權力來說對立法與立法委員的法指指點點你怎麼這麼大的權力呢?請問你這筆錢下來的話總共多少錢?"},{"start":8802.728,"end":8830.28,"text":"如果這個案子通過了,增加多少支出你告訴我啊多少錢報告委員,就我們軍人恢復的話需要八千六百萬左右我看到的數字八千多也要人說五千不管八千五千都是一點點而已對,就這麼少的錢我不知道人事總署哪裡來這麼大的權力可以否決我們立法委員的提案"},{"start":8832.751,"end":8852.488,"text":"你為什麼權利來否決我們呢?我跟委員報告,我們不是否決六案,我是說您在問我這意見的時候,我們表達我們行政院這方面的意見就是你反對嘛!對不對?就是意思你反對就是因為你認為行政權比立法權大啊!立法院永遠是你們的這個立法局啊!莫名其妙!"},{"start":8859.056,"end":8872.306,"text":"你怎麼這麼大的權力呢?一個人事總署的副人事長不可以提這個案子,這要行政命令了這樣我們法律都不要修了通通行政命令就好了行政權多大就是你的思路就是因為大家這個變來變去變來變去我們把法律定了這才是正道啊告訴這個"},{"start":8888.991,"end":8891.352,"text":"人事總署的這個長官不要把行政權壓制立法權不能夠這樣子這個法要通過這個法要過才是真正的落實了要照顧退伍軍人另外我想請教這個原主委"},{"start":8916.229,"end":8933.524,"text":"我一個案子一直看請問你你當過國防部長對不對是這個一樣是軍人出身的陸海公官校畢業的分發到陸海軍跟分發到國安局國安會議就不一樣喔分發到國安會國安局"},{"start":8939.022,"end":8952.675,"text":"他的福利就跟分到陸海空的軍人完全不一樣在過去有圈改條例的時候到正式編制的軍人那裡都有房子"},{"start":8954.008,"end":8979.234,"text":"可是到國安會國安局就沒有房子這個事情已經折磨了十幾年那些都已經垂垂老矣剩下也只有一兩個一個眷村在那裡偵查一直覺得說怎麼會這樣子呢我也是官校畢業的啊我的同學去入海空就有房子啊我去國安會國安局啊就沒有房子啊誰敢想啊咧"},{"start":8982.695,"end":8995.789,"text":"跟委員報告我是服務照護署處長我們有跟國防部討論過這個案子國防部說他有幾個新村他們現在正在核定那有幾個新村是會核定他這個納入圈改條例"},{"start":8996.63,"end":9022.551,"text":"那幾個?因為他沒有給我資料。群製對不對?群製。他跟我講有三個村還四個村。我會後再跟國防部要資料給委員。所以怎麼樣?你把結論講一下。那他們現在呢,審查之後如果核定確定沒問題,他們會把它納入捲改條例。那至於有其他幾個村,因為他的這個條件不符合。因為這個主管機關是國防部啦。我們盡力來協助這裡面的榮民、榮眷這樣子。"},{"start":9025.575,"end":9033.799,"text":"我就拜託原主委你以前部長在國安部長的時候國安部都反對的在那裡一直撤走你的上一任佛世光主委我要問他他認為他很貼心啊"},{"start":9041.82,"end":9045.423,"text":"二、審查本院委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9064.887,"end":9074.476,"text":"現在好不容易處長講了齁國防部可以分寬了是不是可以處理幾個什麼時候會有結論什麼時候會有結論告訴我大概什麼時候這個是國防部的權責好你細節跟我講謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":9089.284,"end":9117.068,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在請徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈委員不在請翁曉玲、翁曉玲委員不在請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在請謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳委員不在請鄭振前、鄭振前、鄭振前委員不在請鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在那今天"},{"start":9127.346,"end":9146.616,"text":"已登記諮詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭諮詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者亦請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供我們現在休息五分鐘休息過後進行法案審查"},{"start":9160.278,"end":9172.884,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法．並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法．並備質詢。"},{"start":9192.193,"end":9201.542,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法》．並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9220.346,"end":9226.551,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案。）並備質詢。"},{"start":9239.52,"end":9239.8,"text":"我請晉儒晉儒"},{"start":9266.394,"end":9268.014,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人發言"},{"start":9291.351,"end":9301.875,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法》．並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9314.762,"end":9317.008,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9326.617,"end":9339.265,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法》．並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9349.599,"end":9363.367,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法．並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法．並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法．並備質詢。"},{"start":9377.895,"end":9385.361,"text":"二、審查本院委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9399.577,"end":9400.339,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":9416.523,"end":9420.246,"text":"那個那個誰?齊柏?齊柏?齊柏?齊柏?沒有要動的"},{"start":9445.06,"end":9445.2,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":9470.781,"end":9477.149,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案。）並備質詢。"},{"start":9482.278,"end":9486.219,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9512.887,"end":9517.108,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法》．並備質詢。"},{"start":9537.283,"end":9539.785,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9561.247,"end":9571.316,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案案。）並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9588.639,"end":9589.28,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":9603.636,"end":9613.642,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具 «國軍退除役官兵專業職能及媒合之具體作法》案。）並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9631.657,"end":9657.871,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案。）並備質詢。二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具:「國軍退除役官兵導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案。）並備質詢。"},{"start":9660.117,"end":9682.476,"text":"我們繼續開會現在請現在開始審查法案請議事人員宣讀條文國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二條文草案第二十七條之二退除役官兵輔和之領退休奉慎養金及生活補助費之人員其子女教育補助費由輔導會補助之宣讀完畢"},{"start":9687.042,"end":9693.884,"text":"我們現在進行國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二草案逐條審查。委員有無意見。"},{"start":9706.762,"end":9724.728,"text":"針對本席所提出來的國軍退除役官兵輔導條例要增訂二十七條之二的這個條文內容事實上它的目的是為了要對於國家有重大犧牲貢獻的退役上校能夠給他更好的照顧跟補助"},{"start":9725.828,"end":9726.569,"text":"一百零六年之前其實當時是所有的"},{"start":9743.911,"end":9770.996,"text":"退除役官兵都是一視同仁有相同的補助還有贍養基因退休奉等等他的這個自己待遇都是一樣的但是呢106年之後呢這個人事總署才把上校級以上的子女教育補助費等等以及其他這些補助費用呢就刪除了那麼我認為說這個是違反平等原則而且也不符合憲法照顧軍人的這樣的精神那麼基於"},{"start":9772.884,"end":9799.174,"text":"我剛剛所說的理由以及還有就是輔導會國防部其實都支持這個案子因為事實上這個並沒有增加太多這個政府的經費預算那麼同時我們要考慮到在現在大專院校的學費其實是越來越高尤其是如果是讀私立學校的話那麼他的這個學費的費用負擔是高的再加上我們的這個退出役上校"},{"start":9800.014,"end":9800.794,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":9816.423,"end":9816.483,"text":"二、審查報告"},{"start":9840.13,"end":9842.613,"text":"其他委員請王定宇召委"},{"start":9855.726,"end":9870.184,"text":"那我也謝謝我們不同黨派委員都簽署了我們過去在各個委員會都有類似的臨時停案建請行政單位去研議為什麼要用建請也就是說不管根據財政紀律法根據預算法"},{"start":9871.26,"end":9885.966,"text":"在這樣增加預算的支出其實是要經由行政院要溝通要協調的而不是立法機關單一方面用法律來要求編列縱使一件好的事情如果用錯的方式"},{"start":9887.304,"end":9904.461,"text":"在這一件可以那其他呢我們現在看到的是一個全面性的我不好意思說用肉統也就是說如果我們今天立法院是單純處理退除役官兵這一條我覺得我們可以好好來討論約行政院來溝通但是目前狀況不是在每個委員會全面的"},{"start":9905.282,"end":9926.347,"text":"要用立法的方式做預算增加之支出不僅與憲法70條大法官釋憲391條或者是財政紀律法5條跟7條或者是我們的預算法其實都明顯的違背所以本席在這邊還是我們在這邊同事那麼久了"},{"start":9927.372,"end":9956.585,"text":"我是建議對的事情不要用錯的方法對的事情不要跟政治上的競爭來做結合我覺得這件事情我們上次領提之後我們希望退輔會跟行政院好好溝通在預算的支出上是否妥適我們來照顧校級軍官這個是一個合法處理的方式但是現在把它編列到我們就直接不管你行政院同不同意因為我們的預算法講的是要跟行政院溝通"},{"start":9958.615,"end":9960.217,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9979.893,"end":9981.275,"text":"二、審查本院委員會主任委員"},{"start":9996.096,"end":10016.915,"text":"我認為這個不妥當這等於是讓無端的人進入陷入爭議這個不好所以我建議所以我建議我們今天是不是就是不是先保留或者看召委怎麼處理要表決也可以要保留我是建議這個案子不是我們不要去讓退伍軍人捲進這樣的糾紛裡面好不好"},{"start":10023.877,"end":10032.525,"text":"人事行政總署表示,親人之利教育補助費與公務人員必須要恆平的原則。"},{"start":10049.921,"end":10069.273,"text":"不是兩者都是一樣公平的,是橫貧的原則。國防部表示,為充實後備部隊軍官缺額以兵力,目前規劃將後備校招編管八年的年限延逸延長為退伍12至17年範圍內未除役的後備軍人。"},{"start":10073.137,"end":10101.607,"text":"那另外就是今人不統一公教人員的安穩受到服役年限的限制工作保障前不如公教人員外服勤的時間工作的環境人生的自由家庭的照顧以待遇福利都以公教人員不一樣尤其是今人的危險性更是高於公教人員今人本來就以公教不同"},{"start":10102.927,"end":10126.256,"text":"只請這個齊頭氏的平等軍人以保護國家人民的天職誰是啊但是誰來保護軍人那另外是第二個面向是進攻效不能啊不不等同類比原因在哪裡第一個啊人生的自由受限制啊安全的這個風險高長時間擔任啊戰備的扶持"},{"start":10131.198,"end":10155.324,"text":"工作地點不斷調職經常演練遠離駐地待遇福利與工作不成正比無法有效照顧家庭所以升上校沒有罪請問是否同意恢復上校執理教育的補助費用以上是本席的表達好 謝謝那主管請"},{"start":10164.665,"end":10167.626,"text":"王定宇教委王定宇教委王定宇教委"},{"start":10186.519,"end":10188.462,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":10200.805,"end":10229.1,"text":"在我們的財政紀律法跟預算法跟相關的事件條文都告訴我們一件事情就是我們當然可以跟行政機關溝通這個預算多一點但是要經過溝通那誰來表達意見有時候是財長有時候是主計有時候是人長他們就是代表行政院表達態度而不是說你們怎麼可以發表意見來跟我們不一樣這個是五個五權憲法裡面行政權跟立法權不同意見的表述所以"},{"start":10230.123,"end":10254.34,"text":"既然意見不一樣,如果我們強行用立法的方式要行政機關依法來處理,我們又創造一個憲政上的問題。但我不認為這件事情這麼難處理。第二個,剛才那個黃立委員有提到說,軍跟公教確實不同。我們當時連改的時候,為什麼軍人對連改的版本滿意度98%以上,那時候還是嚴德發部長的時候做的。"},{"start":10255.04,"end":10276.116,"text":"我們實質上在如果長流久用來看有的還要做增加因為地板從40提高到55了嘛當時我們在這邊都一起處理的那已經是上上界的事情了可是現在在別的委員會同一個黨團提案的是要弄成一樣欸我們在國防委員會說不一樣在另外一個委員會提案說要把它弄成一樣"},{"start":10277.811,"end":10299.46,"text":"說法是同一個政黨說法變矛盾的說法是矛盾的所以我才會建議說不要把這個事情捲進來我們不忍心我們希望照顧退伍軍人我們希望照顧軍中袍澤這件事情是我們今天就先我們委員會有大體討論了就先到這個地方就好也不用表決也不要出委員會"},{"start":10301.101,"end":10302.062,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人擬具"},{"start":10323.323,"end":10341.281,"text":"我剛剛其實也很仔細的聽了包括這個提案人翁曉玲委員但翁委員這個他現在不在吼那其實幾位在黨的委員當然在質詢的內容我也很仔細聽但大家都講到說這個錢看起來一年好像增加五千多萬"},{"start":10343.522,"end":10346.063,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲"},{"start":10364.209,"end":10383.422,"text":"確實是有違反剛剛講包括財政紀律法包括預算法這幾個相關的法律之餘這確實反而製造了很多的爭議我反而覺得是說這個提案的意旨我想今天外交國防委員會的大家都支持一直都支持"},{"start":10384.284,"end":10407.657,"text":"那在這個都支持的狀況之下我們一起來跟行政院建請一起來跟行政院爭取透過行政院整體的這個預算他們在做一些考慮或者是在做一些整體的思考有沒有可能來爭取反而確實這個法我不建議我也不覺得該用現在所謂立法的方式"},{"start":10408.575,"end":10408.875,"text":"二、審查本院委員"},{"start":10427.827,"end":10452.824,"text":"我們在委員會裡面假如硬要來過這個法案或者是硬要來處理這個法案硬要出委員會這個法案我反而覺得這對於我們的這個退出役的這個官兵士官朋友上校即便是上校或他的子女朋友反而不一定是件好事我們有更好的做法這是一個好的事情剛才說大家都支持我沒有聽到哪一個委員不支持這個事情的意旨"},{"start":10454.008,"end":10459.722,"text":"可是沒有好的做法為什麼不走好的做法一定要走一個有爭議的做法我不我不懂為什麼以上"},{"start":10464.557,"end":10493.015,"text":"好接下來請許巧欣委員好那我想這件事情呢剛才很多的委員們也都表述了對這個整體來說他的意義來講大家是都共同支持的那先前呢包含這個臨時提案的部分也不分黨派大家都有連署也代表了我們委員會裡面的委員也是支持這樣子的一個內容但是問題是大家在等的包含我們的這些退除役官兵他們在等的是實踐"},{"start":10494.256,"end":10510.565,"text":"所以如果今天只是做了臨時提案那並沒有入法那很多的退役軍官他們也會覺得那就算就算我退一萬步來說今天呢可能好那暫時現有了今年有了好臨時提案官啊溝通有了那明年會不會又被取消後面會不會被取消"},{"start":10512.526,"end":10540.945,"text":"所以大家還是會希望就是包含是我們真的很多的除役軍官他們會覺得說希望能夠透過入法的方式對他們來講是第一是一個保障第二呢是可以要求就是說可以立即盡快的來實踐所以呢我們的看法還是入法對於這些退役除役的這些軍官來說呢是比較好的那至於處理的方式呢那我們在這裡也具體的建議找委是不是送出之後再由黨團協商來決定謝謝"},{"start":10545.308,"end":10567.663,"text":"請林楚英委員謝謝趙偉我想今天剛剛在詢答的時候大家講得非常清楚了但是本席還是要一再的強調就是會有所謂的這個有王地委員所提出的這個建議案臨時提案那麼我會稱為是建議案的原因就在於立法院的職責當中對於預算的部分"},{"start":10568.123,"end":10568.463,"text":"二、審查本院委員嚴德發報告"},{"start":10588.49,"end":10614.867,"text":"保障預算經費對於我們的退休的軍官或者其軍眷來說是真正的在社會上出去走出去之後不會被受到質疑我要強調的是我們一定都支持也肯定但是我們必須要在法規上面給予行政單位所以我反而是認為今天應該是希望包括嚴主委您回去在行政院的部分能夠"},{"start":10615.728,"end":10615.988,"text":"二、審查本院委員嚴德發報告"},{"start":10632.318,"end":10636.142,"text":"本末倒置或是倒過為因所以本席還是認為說這個案子我們現在留在委員會當中如果說是希望能夠以爭取預算的方式那麼兩邊雙軌並行包括預算的部分請主委好好的回去行政院溝通我們一定會給予支持也會給予肯定"},{"start":10649.255,"end":10671.01,"text":"至於修法的部分還是那句話憲法當中對於立法院的規定那就是不在預算當中作為增加至於要修法的話也請行政院這裡包括退輔會這裡提出版本這個才是一個正確應該要走的路徑我相信對於在場現在所有在瞭解關心這個案子的我們的所有的退輔"},{"start":10672.671,"end":10672.711,"text":"主席"},{"start":10704.321,"end":10705.102,"text":"姚美玲委員"},{"start":10726.094,"end":10727.897,"text":"二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人發言二、審查本院委員翁曉玲等18人發言"},{"start":10742.918,"end":10742.958,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":10771.233,"end":10771.634,"text":"休息三分鐘"},{"start":10933.788,"end":10949.317,"text":"國軍退除役官兵輔導條例增訂第二十七條之二草案的這個部分我們是不是保留送院會處理有委員反對那我們表決好不好舉手記名表決"},{"start":10958.51,"end":10958.89,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10979.127,"end":11002.44,"text":"指正黨的委員民進黨的委員是反對用現在的方法的因為我們認為現在這個案子的方法我講的不是意旨哦我說的是方法上不是好的方法我覺得我們應該繼續讓再繼續在委員會裡面討論我們要達成這個意旨那比較好的方法是什麼我覺得這件事情是我們想要把這個案子"},{"start":11003.387,"end":11004.188,"text":"二、審查本院委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":11032.29,"end":11055.72,"text":"不要去詮釋成說我們反對這個意旨我們沒有反對這個意旨全部人都贊成這個意旨只是怎麼尋找到好的方法我們多花一些時間在委員會裡面討論這個方法我們確實認為不是好的方法理由已經講得很清楚剛剛很多委員在尋答的時候剛剛我們在討論的時候都處理了我覺得這個討論是好的這樣好不好我還是把這意見再重複講一次謝謝"},{"start":11060.041,"end":11061.542,"text":"三位贊成者三人反對者"},{"start":11092.605,"end":11093.565,"text":"現在決定保留令哲琪繼續審查"},{"start":11129.018,"end":11148.162,"text":"趙偉這是對的態度我們保留繼續審查展現出我們對方法彼此看法可能不一樣我們認為現在這個方法有違法違憲之餘當然國民黨團認為沒有這我們互相尊重但是我們在這個委員會有個共同追求的目標是一樣的那個目標就是我們希望"},{"start":11149.022,"end":11149.202,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":11166.238,"end":11166.258,"text":"三會"}]}},{"id":"16008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16008","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea507799957011912f6425655b8120616f19186e52af124432364f4920e3baf27c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-13T08:30:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:27:00+08:00","duration":14220,"影片長度":"03:57:00","委員發言時間":"08:30:00 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惠的26人提案第19條及委員邱振俊的27人提案第17條通過第10條修正通過"},{"start":2362.123,"end":2380.23,"text":"審查通過之條文、條字、引述條文之文字及相關法事用語,授權主席及議事人員整理,並按審查完略,以據審查報告提報院委討論,據交友黨團協商,並推請高金召集委員素梅與院委討論時作補充說明,並通過附帶決議兩項。」"},{"start":2382.711,"end":2412.011,"text":"其他事項,主席宣告,依本次會議審查通過之條文,保留之條文,請內政部及相關主管機關必須就行政院版本草案全面檢視,以立本法案審黨團協商之順利進行。第二起,行政院於6月21日前將相關草案函請本院審議。本席,高中召集委員素梅將於院會交付進付二讀後,並按協商散會。宣錄完畢。"},{"start":2417.095,"end":2428.725,"text":"請問各位同仁,上一次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤?是。好,您說。好,請。都可以看一下。這樣講就可以嗎?好。我想確認一下那個病案寫實的第二點,病案的那個病份是也會用行政院版本的名義是一個版本?"},{"start":2444.161,"end":2465.125,"text":"我想確認一下所謂的這個第二點昨天那個會議結論主席宣告的第二項這個部分請行政院這個相關草案含其本本席將與院會交付近乎二讀後並案協商的那個並案可不可以再解釋一下因為我們昨天的目的也意義也是很清楚的是說要有行政院版本那個從title到這個狀態我們有一個版就對了啦"},{"start":2473.064,"end":2495.115,"text":"將來的黨團協商會議會有兩項一案是我們委員會的就兩個案子嘛對不對一案是行政院含情審議的就是兩個案子所以到時候因為昨天在講的時候包括對照表等等也都是兩個案子所以未來如果真的還有哪一些出入需要表決的時候行政院的板也有出現"},{"start":2496.215,"end":2504.121,"text":"我們會做一個黨團協商結論我們會做一個黨團協商結論最後會做一個黨團協商結論看哪些條文被保留所以不是國民黨版、民眾黨版、書僑會版已經沒有這個版最後會做一個黨團協商結論"},{"start":2518.832,"end":2539.754,"text":"在會議結束後,哪些條文要保留、送入?但是在開始討論的時候是061或什麼委員會審查版和行政院版?我們黨衡協商的標的就是兩個,一個是審查會的條文,一個是行政院的條文。好,謝謝主席。"},{"start":2541.397,"end":2541.978,"text":"議事錄確定繼續進行本日議程請宣讀"},{"start":2559.625,"end":2580.681,"text":"二、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案．進行專題報告．並備質詢。三、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就"},{"start":2581.741,"end":2596.912,"text":"金德總統原住民族政見推動規劃進行專題報告．並備質詢。三、邀請行政院原住民族委員會、行政院主計總署、財政部就一百一十四年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形進行專題報告．並備質詢。"},{"start":2601.174,"end":2629.244,"text":"本日議程所列的報告事項我們合併詢答首先我先介紹在場的委員還有列席的官員我們歡迎蘇巧惠委員歡迎王美惠委員歡迎黃婕委員介紹一下今天列席的官員原住民族委員會主任委員曾志勇"},{"start":2631.735,"end":2660.74,"text":"政務副主任委員杜章梅莊、綜合規劃處處長亞波俗用、社會福利處處長羅赫魯、公共建設處處長劉偉哲、土地管理處代理處長張信良、教育文化處副處長邱文龍、秘書室主任陳梅林、"},{"start":2662.938,"end":2690.541,"text":"人事室主任陳榮宏主計室主任簡信惠原住民族文化發展中心代理主任簡明雄原住民族文化事業基金會董事長馬拉奧斯原住民族語言研究發展基金會董事長麻夭古木客家委員會主任委員古秀飛"},{"start":2693.243,"end":2700.365,"text":"中和規劃處處長陳瑞榮行政院主計總處副主計長陳慧娟公務預算處專門委員王淺凱內政部常務次長吳唐安移民署署長鍾景坤"},{"start":2719.42,"end":2722.084,"text":"文化部綜合規劃司副司長嚴榮興財政部國庫署副署長馬曉慧"},{"start":2734.008,"end":2748.295,"text":"我們現在就進行報告請原民會主委曾主委來做報告因為你今天有三個專題報告所以我給你長一點的時間給你十分鐘請你一一的來說明謝謝"},{"start":2758.278,"end":2766.844,"text":"主席、各位委員、理事先生首先要感謝立法院長期以來對原民會的業務的支持"},{"start":2767.711,"end":2795.443,"text":"以下我針對都會區原住民族的權益保障的這個措施還有賴總統的原住民族的政見推動的規劃以及114年度本會的預算籌編的情形則要來跟大家報告那為了要提升我們族人遷居都市的適應能力本會跟相關的部會共同推動"},{"start":2796.872,"end":2811.855,"text":"都市第七原住民族的這個發展方案並且研擬精進的方案如下我們規劃每半年辦理各項業務計畫的這個追蹤還有考核確保各項的這個施政能夠落實"},{"start":2812.856,"end":2829.862,"text":"二、我們規劃在今年的八月底以前,我們至少要辦理六場次的都會區原住民族相關權益法律草案的公聽會,明天就...對不起主委,您的這個口頭報告在我們的書面上是哪一份?"},{"start":2830.902,"end":2847.417,"text":"因為你今天給我們的是賴清總統總統的專題報告還有都會區的專題報告還有你現在的預算籌備情形請問您口頭的報告是哪一份我們三份是要一起這樣子打開看嗎還是先從都會區我現在先報告都會區的報告謝謝抱歉打斷您請繼續"},{"start":2853.513,"end":2874.327,"text":"那我們規劃在今年的八月底就開始要辦理至少六場次的都會區的原住民族相關權益的法律草案的這個公聽會那並且從明天晚上開始在桃園市辦理第一場我們要徵省並且要聽起多方的意見特別是地方政府的意見我們也必須要能夠聽得到作為後續"},{"start":2877.386,"end":2902.531,"text":"法案還有相關的政策推動的參考。」第三、我們將持續執行建置原住民族族群主流化友善空間的計畫從113年到126年在都會區建置原住民族族群主流化的友善空間我們會打造都會區文化傳承的場域。第四、我們與教育部要合作"},{"start":2904.152,"end":2929.647,"text":"將原住民族的議題融入學校的課程當中,我們也必須要推廣全民原住民族教育,建立正確的認知,我們也希望能夠降低對原住民的歧視事件的繼續發生。」五、不定期召開座談會來盤點地方法規,強化中央跟地方政府都會都市原住民族的聯繫與合作。"},{"start":2932.247,"end":2952.7,"text":"那接下來我是要報告賴清德總統原住民族政見的推動規劃方案第一個我們會依照111年現判制第17號的判決結果希望在114年的10月27日以前來修正原住民族身分法"},{"start":2953.919,"end":2975.996,"text":"或者是另訂中法的方式讓平埔族群在內的這個南島族群的這個民族有機會取得原住民的身份另外在判決中特別揭示要先認定民族之後再取得身份的處理的原則目前本會我們也已經受理西拉雅族還有嘎哈烏族還有巴塞族"},{"start":2976.874,"end":2995.232,"text":"我們這各族群的這個團體民族的認定申請案其中西阿亞我們已經委外進行調查的研究後續我們會依照相關的法例核定前述我講的這三個族的各族群的這個民族別第二個"},{"start":2995.902,"end":3010.696,"text":"在推動原住民族自治的部分本會我們將提供基金會來補助讓每一個組各組內他們自己先充分的對話討論看族人需要的自治制度是什麼樣的自治制度"},{"start":3012.105,"end":3040.328,"text":"形成共識之後,我們作為以後後續推動的基礎。」那麼本會也將針對部落公法人的制度重新推動來徵詢部落的意見來更符合族人實際需求的方式來推動部落公法人的這個制度因為部落公法人這幾年這一兩年來我們到部落去做說明其實很多很多的這個部落他們"},{"start":3041.088,"end":3059.638,"text":"也沒有共識,他們也有很多的意見,所以我們需要一點時間來做徵詢的會議。第三個,我們要培立部落,落實原住民族資源的共榮、共管,而且要守護土地。我們是要精進諮商同意制度,我們將會參考過去實際的經驗"},{"start":3063.939,"end":3083.545,"text":"在今年度前面的來修正檢討把諮商同意辦法是不是可以把它提升這個法例位階到諮商同意的這個這個變成諮商同意的一個條例讓它的位階能夠提升在土地潛力的這個保障方面我們會依據國土計劃法"},{"start":3086.286,"end":3107.746,"text":"我們跟內政部共同來訂定原住民族土地使用規則我們希望能夠鬆綁土地管制的法規讓族人使用土地能夠有更不要說那麼大的限制能夠更自由地使用自己的土地另一方面我們也要研擬原住民族保留地管理"},{"start":3109.697,"end":3131.425,"text":"條例的這個草案,我們希望也把這個原開辦法一樣的也把它提升的提升到法律的位階來建前原住民保留地的法源還有管理的體系,落實憲法上保障原住民族土地福利的這樣的一個精神。第四個,我們要強化原住民族健康的服務,我們會依據"},{"start":3132.97,"end":3139.921,"text":"原住民族健康法跟衛福部共同來改善原住民族健康不平等的情形。」我們"},{"start":3140.99,"end":3168.686,"text":"也會就影響原住民族平均餘命的這些疾病我們利用現代的科學將醫療帶進一晃我們最主要是希望提升我們族人的平均的餘命此外本會我們也會繼續推動文化健康站的這個服務的量能我們會整合地方政府部落還有在地的醫療團隊等我們希望落實這個長者個人的健康管理強化"},{"start":3169.673,"end":3193.798,"text":"原住民族的這個健康跟醫療的服務。五、我們也持續推動原住民族的這個實驗教育。我們建議而且要建構原住民族知識體系還有原住民族教育課程發展的各項工作。我們希望能夠一步一步的來發展雙軌制原住民族教育體系的基礎。"},{"start":3195.455,"end":3217.208,"text":"同時也希望透過我們執行國家語言整體發展方案讓我們原住民族的語言使用能夠更生活化、家庭化而且也能夠部落化。六、針對都市原住民的保障在剛剛的報告中我們已經說明我們會繼續積極地來落實各項精進的方案"},{"start":3219.85,"end":3235.471,"text":"最後第七在國際交流的部分我們會持續透過南島民族論壇還有原住民族經濟貿易合作的協議跟台紐經貿的這個合作的協定我們會跟世界各地的原住民族做交流"},{"start":3236.397,"end":3253.471,"text":"而且我們也會培養原住民族在外交領域的人才此外我們也會透過原住民的文物館來培養更多的文化轉譯的專業人才以及持續獎勵還有培育原住民族體育的人才"},{"start":3255.12,"end":3282.615,"text":"最後有關114年度預算籌編的作業的情形我們目前正在重新檢視調整相關的這個概算我們會將總統的政見以及本會當前的施政的重點優先納入我們希望能夠在6月20號以前能夠送行政院來審查後續我們也會依據行政院審查的結果"},{"start":3285.77,"end":3301.72,"text":"將籌編114年度預算案希望能夠在8月31日以前將整編後的114年的預算書送到大院來審查。」以上的報告那敬請各位委員、女士先生不吝指教謝謝大家"},{"start":3305.536,"end":3325.231,"text":"謝謝主委今天比較進入狀況了你還有一點時間沒有講完所以表示你好像已經非常的準備充足了待會就針對我們其他委員對你個別質詢說請你好好表現謝謝你繼續我們還有其他部會的一些說明我們就是看我們的書面報告就好了好不好"},{"start":3327.103,"end":3354.045,"text":"我們就請各委員自行參閱並且刊登公報我們現在進行詢答委員質詢前我們依照做幾點宣告本會還有原住民委員發言時間我們是6加2好嗎必要的時候6分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘非本會委員發言的時間是以6分鐘為主上午10點30分截止發言登記臨時提案截止提出的時間在10點"},{"start":3356.347,"end":3365.856,"text":"與本會委員詢答完畢以後處理。」請問各位委員有沒有意見?好,沒有。那我們現在就請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員來質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們請曾主委。有請曾主委。"},{"start":3383.653,"end":3399.062,"text":"主委好主委剛剛聽到您的報告不管是對人民會的這個業務報告或者是對都市原住民地區的權益我想都有著墨那我想我現在我服務的地方是新北市所以我當然"},{"start":3400.003,"end":3404.644,"text":"關心的題目就是都市原住民的權益為優先所以我今天想跟你談談的是在我選區常常發生的一個問題就是我們在都市的原住民聚會所到底要怎麼樣才可以得到政府的幫助讓我們有機會可以建置起來因為我們在都會地區我們還是希望有我們族人朋友可以活動就像在自己故鄉一樣的狀況那這個最需要什麼"},{"start":3427.31,"end":3438.077,"text":"需要的是寬闊的地方嘛對不對因為說實在的我們的活動常常都是平面式的不管是舞蹈啦祭祀啊等等你如果是這樣我們在高樓大廈內或者室內空間其實看起來都不像也沒有辦法完整我這個認知主委應該合理啦齁合理"},{"start":3447.903,"end":3462.816,"text":"那我現在其實這個問題問了很多年我現在是很高興看到您在今天你的報告裡面這一份都會區原住民族的權益保障措施精進方案裡面你有寫到你們在今年開始會"},{"start":3464.597,"end":3478.618,"text":"建制原住民族的主流化友善空間計畫打造都市地區的原住民族文化傳統場域這個和我需要的原住民、都市原住民地區的這個聚會所會有相關嗎?我可以因為這個計畫得到幫助嗎?"},{"start":3481.415,"end":3502.009,"text":"跟委員報告我們在都會區特別是我們的族人要借場地或者是使用場地辦各項的活動很需要有一個屬於自己的一個空間那我們這個我們有一個這樣的一個計畫就是都會區我看是今年開始的從113年到116年我們"},{"start":3506.28,"end":3525.809,"text":"可以有這樣的一個計畫來協助這個計畫全部是10億4年10億的計畫10億的計畫那可以就可以提報這樣都市比較多原住民的而且是比較需要這樣產業的我們願意來協助好那我就想問了我覺得我很高興看到有這個計畫這個方向但是那我就想知道4年10億的計畫那你們是如何選定這個地點"},{"start":3530.271,"end":3540.999,"text":"是我們自己只要我們喜歡我們常用我們高興的就可以嗎還是你有什麼樣的條件或限制那這個條件和限制對我們會有幫助嗎我今天就想聽你細部一點講第一個"},{"start":3543.462,"end":3559.497,"text":"他必須是人口希望能夠達到一千五百人以上一千五百人以上我這裡到處都是還有希望那個場域的土地如果是沒有問題那是最好因為有問題的話我們又會延宕希望是那個土地沒有問題的話我們來協助會比較快"},{"start":3561.94,"end":3566.301,"text":"主委,什麼叫做沒有問題?沒有問題的話我還需要找政府嗎?對不對?說實在的這個地方其實就是需要原民會下去協助啦說實在的因為我跟主委說一下我今天看到這個計畫真是一則以喜一則以憂喜的是我們政府看到了族人的需求了"},{"start":3583.487,"end":3605.002,"text":"所以有要投入費用來預算來幫忙協助大家做這個聚會所可是優的是什麼呢我跟主委說如果你這個之後有機會來到我們新北這邊我至少就可以邀請你去兩個地方一個是我們英哥的南進部落他在領水河邊河岸地我們每年都在那邊舉辦聚會啊可是那個地方就是河灘地啊河灘地可以用來蓋一個大樓岸可以蓋一個聚會所嗎我想有困難"},{"start":3613.248,"end":3633.722,"text":"另外一個地方是我英哥的中湖和永昌的交界中山橋下中山橋下那個地方也很不錯我們平常可以在這邊射箭還有跳舞聚會等等其實都是一個很適合的地方坦白講那個地方還是什麼我們平常區公所清潔隊也有在那邊做一個使用"},{"start":3634.582,"end":3636.505,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況下那這個地方主委我剛剛講的兩個地方你覺得土地有沒有問題我跟委員報告你委員剛剛講的應該是中那個什麼那個橋那邊那個對比較沒有問題因為它是公有地那裡也比較應該是"},{"start":3651.045,"end":3655.707,"text":"我這樣看啦是因為我沒有去看過現場但是我覺得那邊會比較沒有問題所以只要土地是可以的或者只要是公家的你們都可以協助把它轉成是原住民朋友可以來做聚會所的地方是這樣嗎主委你在這裡是等於是承諾"},{"start":3669.133,"end":3682.519,"text":"原民會不只是給錢而且至少好啦我不敢說因為你是中央層級嘛這一定要經過地方政府啦說實在的這一定有跟地方政府合作的部分但是至少原民會你現在是不是可以在備詢台這裡公開的承諾原民會會協助輔導我們族人朋友來就這個計畫爭取到我們最最需要的聚會所這個會跟委員報告那我要找哪個單位"},{"start":3697.107,"end":3724.044,"text":"我們公建處,我們原民會的公共建設公建處公建處那請你帶著計畫到我的辦公室來我們就各案今天在這裡跟你講通則嘛那我現在已經跟你講了兩個具體的個案了我新北還有更多的地方其實都有這樣的需要你可不可以盤點新北所有目前有需要的有申請過的有列案入案過的地方的都來跟我們辦公室做一個說明看看我們現在進程可以到哪裡可以嗎?公建處這裡主委可以嗎?現在就有資料我們等一下可以提供"},{"start":3726.105,"end":3732.589,"text":"會後就提供嘛吼,然後我們一個一個個案來盤,到底哪幾個可以。好,主委,那我再問你喔,這個是競爭型計畫嗎?對。對吼,所以他有申請的期限嗎?他要用誰做主體來申請?"},{"start":3741.161,"end":3756.528,"text":"直轄市政府所以必須是要報到市政府市政府還要先把你報上去所以你有沒有入列是市政府決定這個順序嗎市政府會先排一個順序然後才來送你們決定你們按照市政府編排的順序來做勾選來核給經費嗎"},{"start":3759.062,"end":3772.528,"text":"也不是我們他報上來我們還是要下去看啦當然你要下去看嘛但是這個順序市政府是不是有權利決定一二三四我的意思是說如果到時候沒有過到底是市政府的問題還是是你的問題"},{"start":3775.45,"end":3800.545,"text":"他報上來我們還要下去看啦然後那個優先數據也是會跟地方政府來談所以地方政府是很關鍵的一環就對了啦那我是希望說今天藉著這樣我今天問得這麼細是因為我知道很多族人朋友已經都會看我們的國會頻道我們在問政的過程當中這是一個他們非常關心的問題我很希望今天看到這一則質詢的朋友們可以了解"},{"start":3800.885,"end":3805.287,"text":"人民會有開了這樣的計畫我們有心要解決大家的問題但申請的計畫還有步驟還有全責是地方和中央要能夠一起合作的這個是大家人民會要一起來解決大家的困擾包括土地利用的問題但是錢的部分我希望能夠從寬編列"},{"start":3821.594,"end":3844.262,"text":"讓大家能夠有一個好的聚會所不然你講文化傳承等等如果沒有場域說實在的其實都很難啊一年沒有跳舞兩年沒有跳舞到時候連腳步都怎麼都已經忘記了同意啦同意好那主委我也在跟您說啦我們昨天在同樣這個會議場上我們在審新住民權益的保障至於要用專法還是要用基本法都還在"},{"start":3846.123,"end":3866.022,"text":"討論當中。」但是我們可以看得出來其實新住民他在不同的部會裡面有不同的服務單位有常態型和申請型其實非常非常的對主委你有看到這一頁嗎你前面的螢幕應該也是有你覺得原住民也有新住民的新住民的是這樣原住民的我們也有嗎每一項都有嗎"},{"start":3869.98,"end":3887.914,"text":"我們在內政部有新住民家庭服務中心是常態型服務對象新住民教育部有家庭教育中心常態型服務對象是全民還有教育部仍然還有申請型的新住民學習中心給新住民原住民有沒有比較少"},{"start":3889.039,"end":3914.826,"text":"不能比較少啊對不對因為我們的建構更完全嘛好我給你看下一頁啦下一頁我幫你整理出來其實我們每一項都有可是我要跟主委再次提醒的其實我們還有更多的計畫就如同剛剛說的其實很多的縣市政府都沒有知道要來申請比如說我們看到衛福部有原住民及離島地區部落的社區健康營造計畫這個齁"},{"start":3917.495,"end":3942.409,"text":"其實不是只有原鄉可以申請是都會區的原住民部落也可以來申請結果你看看哪幾個縣市有來申請老實講一看其實只有高雄市最積極啊高雄市去採訪了去調查了他所有的原民鄉之外連小港區的都市原住民他都來申請這個計畫了那我就想知道為什麼新北沒有"},{"start":3943.755,"end":3960.697,"text":"為什麼桃園沒有?為什麼台中沒有?是他們的政府比較不積極嗎?還是他們不夠了解?我覺得這個原民會應該要可以幫忙去了解一下。凡是有資源的,我們都應該要可以爭取,不能讓我們的族人朋友搞不清楚狀況啊,到底是中央的還是是地方的嘛。」"},{"start":3961.238,"end":3975.089,"text":"主委希望這邊可以盤整各部會、其他對原民有相關的補助計畫等等能夠提供到我的辦公室我們一起來為主委朋友的權益做爭取這樣可以吧?可以好 謝謝主委好 謝謝巧惠委員"},{"start":3977.871,"end":4005.298,"text":"請問一下主委你再回應一下那個風雨球場或者是那個是原民會權額嗎還是地方政府他必須也要出資或者是由協會來提供要不然個人的話怎麼跟縣市政府申請你可能要問清楚再講一下對或者是聚會所對就是你講的這個聚會所他必須是對跟委員報告就是說他必須是這個"},{"start":4006.658,"end":4026.306,"text":"公布最好是這個土地一定是要公有地這是第一個我知道是協會來申請還是個人地方政府來申請對誰去跟地方政府申請地方政府申請所以個人就可以跟地方政府申請還是協會去跟地方政府申請這是公共設施所以是地方政府執行"},{"start":4027.106,"end":4048.531,"text":"所以也就是說地方政府他要清楚知道但是我們的族人必須要去跟地方政府說我有這個需求嘛我的重點是在這裡所以是因為在部落裡面尤其是都會區他大概都是協會嘛他不會是個人嘛他要用到這一塊的時候他一定是一個協會嘛他這個協會就會到縣市政府去申請嘛"},{"start":4048.991,"end":4077.532,"text":"然後縣市政府才到原民會報馬然後這樣子的經費是縣市政府要不要提供還是全額是原民會按照中央對地方的補助比例來分擔所以是要地方政府主席既然你問到這裡了那容我也加入討論一下因為我也處理過相當多的天目球場的這種部分所以其實確實就是如同主席說的這所有的計畫都是公家的計畫所以就是地方縣市政府還不是區公所"},{"start":4079.053,"end":4102.704,"text":"是地方縣市政府去提出申請跟中央申請了之後中央像我們新北就大概是六四吧大概是這樣的狀況所以一定是地方縣市政府所以剛剛說的個人跟協會只能反映意見給公所反映意見然後公所也待會轉達到地方縣市政府我剛剛要說的其實也就這樣謝謝主席大家一起把這件事情弄得更清楚"},{"start":4103.644,"end":4129.302,"text":"要不然主任搞不清楚為什麼我提出的都沒有然後每次回應的時候就是沒有經費所以要比例啦對不對講清楚縣市政府往中央報的時候中央也要出一部分的比例如果中央通過中央通過的話如果地方政府也不編那一半的話可能也做不到嘛所以是中央跟地方要配合才能夠完成這件事情"},{"start":4133.004,"end":4133.324,"text":"王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":4158.038,"end":4162.961,"text":"主席,我們請請客委主委。好,我們請客委會主委。好,歡迎主委。王委員好。主委,早早。主委,在這,我先來,本席先來請教一點,你覺得我們客委"},{"start":4182.407,"end":4185.668,"text":"總會議席有多少?總統有多少議席?我第一,我們113年初的議席是391,明年要變滿年的議席是461來,是不是有歡迎的,有歡迎不是,我認為這樣"},{"start":4206.288,"end":4218.459,"text":"二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會"},{"start":4239.629,"end":4251.199,"text":"這樣主委是我們要講的信你都要用客委的語言來講嗎?對,報告委員,我們在台批用合法律報告。好,這樣互相尊重的議員。在這裡面,剛才本席也跟你說過,我們總統會議席有多少?"},{"start":4266.533,"end":4279.842,"text":"跟我們的藝文、藝術總統有多少?來。我們的藝文、語言差不多七億,語言的部分七億。差不多七億。在這裏面,我們想要跟你談到的就是第一點,感謝對嘉義市的關心,讓藝文可以在今年復活。再來,"},{"start":4295.302,"end":4296.723,"text":"在移民廟也好、北陰也好,我們有很多文化,可以提到我們客家會的獎金要到五十三萬四千,"},{"start":4308.891,"end":4311.973,"text":"今年通話制已經辦過,適當客委補助70萬,雖然隔離期客委人數至市中心要2萬4千人,"},{"start":4327.702,"end":4331.086,"text":"雖然酒瘋酒,我們的文化要保存下去,不是酒自己就沒人關心,這樣我們的文化會消失的。」所以在這裏面,我要請教客家委員會"},{"start":4343.982,"end":4351.405,"text":"對嘉義市、客戶的文化及民情,您有什麼規則嗎?來。道歉委員,我們在嘉義市有錄料理,我們同事布施委員會,藉著通法機判理法庭的青春夜的所採,我們明年會鼓勵去判通法機,從今年就輔助了70萬,"},{"start":4370.812,"end":4373.635,"text":"兔兔語言所提到,像我們傳統的白銀的部分,我們在那兩年沒有設置不足的團體來做白銀,但是我們做的提案和語言報告,為了我們對它要合格的意願、白銀的存在,我們為台立來支持。好,加上這兩年本身要跟"},{"start":4397.694,"end":4408.159,"text":"主委探討的就是說,我們自己的語言、的序句,在很多時候的將來,不要在家裡去表演過。在本席,對啊對,拜託啊拜託,在今年,有在家裡去加大,會好,有表演過。"},{"start":4417.901,"end":4427.289,"text":"但在我這幾個月所了解的,不知道是否有二年,你們的教職、你們的幾位、教育期沒有看到這個幾位本身我們也、我們的諸位,可以給教育期機會"},{"start":4436.936,"end":4446.363,"text":"因為正當有辦,你應該副主委、前副主委有去參加的時候,有看很多人去參加,實在會很感動,所以說希望主委可以加二次。」"},{"start":4452.927,"end":4460.829,"text":"更多的資源：在這方面,我認為自己在長久以來,你知道我們自己吃的六料理,六料理的大部分都是大,我們客家,我們這裡的食材,跟孩子都去外地,所以本省會跟你說,移民廟的老年人時,可以帶動他們的經歷事實,"},{"start":4479.935,"end":4492.866,"text":"等待到他的故鄉參加我們的藝文、我們的文化,所以我們、我們的主委,多多關心。」好,感謝委員,沒問題,這樣為了太力支持。好,現在剛才本席跟你說的,你要趕緊去演繹。來,請坐。好,感謝。來,我們原民會的主委。"},{"start":4508.717,"end":4516.787,"text":"所以我要請問你現在要回答本席的詢問是用你本身的語言還是用你想要...委員我幫你報告齁我幫你報告"},{"start":4525.103,"end":4544.583,"text":"原住民是這樣原住民16個族我如果說我的台灣族的連住宿也聽不懂所以我過去用台語給你回答好了哇 讚啦因為台語也有用在消息的當地原住民的主委裡面說出台語也不簡單但是我相信"},{"start":4547.817,"end":4557.746,"text":"十八族的語言主委都會選：不不我都擔任這個職務：不不不我不會選的你不會選喔?沒有啦,別人做的就像有多過的這樣喔?跟他們去談判、去關心的時候你是不是要再找那一族"},{"start":4568.256,"end":4591.101,"text":"問候,譬如說你好,還是說吃飽,還是說…好啦,不要緊啦,這題外話啦,來,最主要就是說,若我們的原住民的權利要鼓勵,自尊要鼓勵,在這裡面,主委你可不可以知道啊,主委你可不可以知道啊,我們最近有人帶我們的原住民去到中國大陸的時候,讓人愛話的,說"},{"start":4597.403,"end":4600.298,"text":"我們是少數民族,你知道這個問題嗎?"},{"start":4602.079,"end":4615.587,"text":"在這第一百五年的時候,原民會在杭州文化…沒有啦沒有啦,最近也是這樣啦!最近原民會,我們回來沒有去對話啦!沒有啦!我知道你沒有去對話,我是說最近有這樣的時候,本身要跟你談到的就是這個,未來我們的議程的時候,說實在每一項都要照顧到"},{"start":4629.855,"end":4639.537,"text":"在我們總統會議席內,我們有補助教育的推廣,在這裏面,如果團體在國際交流時,到目前為止,我們有給予中國,來,目前沒有,到現在有沒有?"},{"start":4656.701,"end":4659.646,"text":"財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就"},{"start":4668.066,"end":4675.348,"text":"有文學家孫大川過的嗎?因為主委因為本身要跟你說的就是說我們要像人家說的我們不是要去挽救我們是要去做好處兵一國跟一國的交流跟他們要發我們的新聞我們就去那邊寄達啦在這裡面我們是覺得說大家互相對待"},{"start":4697.737,"end":4705.042,"text":"會尊重嘛,不能去愛化爛啦,因為有時候要去的心說,我們少數民族,跟我們一家親,跟我們就跟他不一樣啊,所以說主委在這裏面喔,您要去注意,跟在補助團體的交流的心,還有保證為止,您要怎麼整回來?"},{"start":4720.257,"end":4722.04,"text":"補助團隊交流、國際交流。」國際交流我們是有補助啦,這就譬如說那個南島...南島...跟這基金會怎麼補助,怎麼對平衡?"},{"start":4732.125,"end":4739.271,"text":"有一個要點,就是說,譬如說你處理多少人,你要去多久,那經費都不一樣啦。跟他的經費,你會限制他要去兌、要去兌嗎?還是不用?他想要去兌就去兌?不是,他如果要去,譬如說去南島國家做交流,博物館的交流,或是說那個這個活動的交流,譬如說剛才,"},{"start":4757.485,"end":4766.374,"text":"是要在對的地方上,可以幫助我們的文化,這是最重要的。本席在這段時間內,在這個問題的議程,您要好好去處理。本席,您正當這個議程,如何開議?"},{"start":4781.872,"end":4784.654,"text":"我請客委會主委謝謝客委會主委"},{"start":4813.224,"end":4824.931,"text":"主委你好齁其實阿在都市裡面有原住民阿在都市裡面也有很多隱形的客家人主委你認不認同當然 歸獨歸獨"},{"start":4828.29,"end":4849.692,"text":"我以北部來說我們講臺北市臺北市大概有45萬.4萬的客家人其實佔了臺北市的人口將近17.4%那其實在臺北市我們除了去參加客家團體還有搭捷運之外很難聽到客家話了主委認不認同"},{"start":4850.717,"end":4851.098,"text":"其實臺北市的客家人"},{"start":4862.481,"end":4886.039,"text":"幾乎都是北客比較多他就是從桃竹苗這邊來的比較多當然南部也有但北客比較多那其實在台北市我舉個例子台北市的柯南街、南昌路、泰順街、通化街、悠隆街、武昌街、河江街這些其實就很多"},{"start":4887.2,"end":4907.203,"text":"我們客家的聚落以前的人來這邊就在那邊在我們新北一樣在我們板橋也是有可能一兩條街裡面幾乎都是客家人因為從南部上來親戚朋友一起來就住在附近所以已經形成了一個客家的部落不過"},{"start":4908.462,"end":4916.255,"text":"主委你知道嗎在這些很多客家人聚集的地方客語很少聽得到的"},{"start":4918.149,"end":4929.796,"text":"你知道嗎?我剛才解釋說,因為提供世內都市的客家人,他不會說,但是他在那間什麼對象的法院,他就不會說,他就會擁有在都市的法院,說法語也好,說俄羅也好,然後他趕快提供合法的基金,要解釋的,所以他要確實在都市暗度的行業,但是合法過難產生的一個現象。"},{"start":4947.006,"end":4965.948,"text":"你怎麼知道我都不大敢講了也不會講了但你講什麼我都聽得懂因為我們的腔調跟別人不一樣但我剛剛為什麼特別強調像台北、新北這一些它是北客比較多一點"},{"start":4967.229,"end":4992.453,"text":"那他們的腔調當然是會比較接近一點所以我要說的就是說其實我們不管去要什麼客家文化傳承或什麼的其實我從頭到尾我真的認為語言非常的重要不知道主委你認為所謂要讓客家文化要能夠傳承像什麼其實語言很重要吧"},{"start":4993.686,"end":4997.188,"text":"也在語言在客家文化產生的改創業的基礎,所以我非常認同語言的看法,語言的復振在我們學位在改創業的工作。」"},{"start":5007.038,"end":5026.614,"text":"如果主委你也是這樣認同我當然非常高興但是我手頭上有一個資料就是說客家像在客家文化重點區的客家民眾他客語的聽說能力都有很大的下降趨勢我不知道主委有沒有注意到這個問題因為你剛剛已經講了東勢就是這樣所以我現在其實"},{"start":5035.559,"end":5058.273,"text":"語言的重要所以我覺得客家語言你現在很多的學校雖然有課語認證老師可以去教但我覺得我不知道主委你有沒有去真的去看有很多我們不能說他不好他很認真的他去考這個課語認證然後去但是"},{"start":5059.193,"end":5074.942,"text":"他考的是課與認證,真正實際上要去講,要去生活化,其實有一點點距離吧?主委你有沒有去學校這樣去去去關心過去去看過?嗯,他要去母鄉那邊,呃,再度訪發起"},{"start":5076.202,"end":5093.645,"text":"其中一個方法就是行業形成室搞合法的事情我們鼓勵在六一批的、中一批的行業形成室做出帶連性的形式來跟你們要相擁所以要擴大它的可能就是形成室的數量、年數來搞合法也要那些貴重業務的第二就是我們無限有推一個叫做行業先共研"},{"start":5106.027,"end":5112.09,"text":"也要先說一件事,就是昨天委員提到的,來到都市地區講合法的基金會的時候,我們要先說一件事,跟財界來講合法的重要性,也要提供年年一時的一個方法,所以提供年年一時,特別是生存時的年數的提升,也要在我們目前的重要作為"},{"start":5132.168,"end":5146.085,"text":"主委你說的這個提交語言意思等等這些我不是反對啦但我是有一個具體的建議就是說我們能不能跟教育部我們課委跟教育部我們去協調其實學校有一些課語的課程"},{"start":5148.648,"end":5163.619,"text":"我們就協調一下其實我們有一些客家的長輩他講的客家話其實是非常好的只是他沒有客語認證啊他沒有辦法去教啊對不對那我們是不是弄一個簡單的認證那他去學校教"},{"start":5164.724,"end":5181.153,"text":"我覺得比那個會更生活化更具體啊對不對那甚至有一些課外活動我們就請這些爺爺奶奶去啊我覺得能不能活一點思考活一點能不能朝這個方向走你就有沒有可能啊"},{"start":5181.656,"end":5187.52,"text":"一是一個居合的建議,二是一個居合的建議,二是一個居合的建議,二是一個居合的建議,二是一個居合的建議,二是一個居合的建議,二是一個居合的建議,二是一個居合的建議,二是一個居合的建議,"},{"start":5201.508,"end":5220.255,"text":"好,如果主委同意,如果這樣,那我們我覺得啊,可以努力一下啦,因為我覺得你讓這些長輩去,他反而更生活化,講得更準確,然後他也有榮譽感,他回去他村裡隔壁,我在學校教書耶,那個榮譽感一起來之後,我跟你講,會帶動這個"},{"start":5223.397,"end":5237.618,"text":"他的下一輩你看他在那邊教書他可能要學得比別人更好不然給爺爺奶奶丟臉我覺得這是一個共榮所以我覺得這個可能要稍微去突破所以不然我們這個"},{"start":5239.461,"end":5256.203,"text":"國家語言整體發展方案每年投每5年我們5年要投入300億耶每年投入300億耶那我們去拿個一點點然後用個特別的計畫拿個幾億我覺得這些爺爺奶奶他並不是真的要拿很多錢啦你可能一堂課給他個"},{"start":5257.985,"end":5268.228,"text":"幾百塊他就很高興了,他要的是那種榮譽感,那也讓這個客語文化的傳承我覺得比較火、比較好,好不好,這個主委,如果你剛剛同意的話,就要拜託你好不好?沒問題,也要贊成,也要奉獻來設計、來研究,本國度的客家的供客房、額外留的總批諸地間生意的強化,來學習也要客家房"},{"start":5284.98,"end":5313.812,"text":"好謝謝但像你你這個如果可以的話也不是只有你像我剛說的臺北新北其實也可以配合全國可以來做全國可以來做對啊對啊全國都可以來做嘛這樣我覺得對啊因為流失最嚴重的其實是在都會區啦你說客家莊雖然越來越少但還是有人在用嘛對不對那都會區的客家人真的快被快慢慢的流失了好不好拜託主委可以啦齁"},{"start":5314.372,"end":5319.635,"text":"感謝維研好謝謝感謝謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢謝謝也謝謝谷主委謝謝繼續我們請劉徐廷委員來質詢好謝謝主席原民會主委有請好有請曾主委"},{"start":5345.88,"end":5369.477,"text":"主席早安五月好本席在5月13號就搬遷原住民語言傳播大樓的整備事宜專題報告的時候我們針對是不是可以興建員工宿舍這件事情我們有提出質詢那麼5月30號有做追蹤後面兩個基金會的董事長包含主委您也來本席辦公室討論謝謝你們對這件事情的重視但是我要特別講5月13號那時候討論的時候我們的小結論"},{"start":5372.279,"end":5396.547,"text":"就是一個月之內給出完整方案那今天這個非常剛好今天6月13號剛好距離我們開始關心這個題目剛好一個月那當初來協調會的時候你們有講說兩個基金會內部還沒有針對這個相關的規劃還沒有內部整合還沒有一個具體的一個策略但是怎麼樣一個月也到了是不是該提出一個完整的說法請主委回答謝謝"},{"start":5397.349,"end":5419.173,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝委員吼,那目前就是我們顏如晦這裡吼,因為他最近這個大概這個禮拜他去參加這個太平洋的藝術節在這個夏威夷吼,那所以目前這個進度還沒有趕上來,還比較慢所以你們前面答應我一個月之內要給答案是在開玩笑是不是?"},{"start":5420.612,"end":5432.829,"text":"再給我們一個禮拜好不好因為他那邊還沒有整個整理出來所以還沒有我們還沒有辦法這樣子不行啊你如果有狀況你要提早跟我講啊對不對要不然怎麼怎麼討論呢但沒關係啦本席是有準備的"},{"start":5435.33,"end":5457.291,"text":"現在處理這個事情有三個步驟第一個叫你內部要整合出一個版本嘛對不對我們如何保障這些在這個兩基金會上班的人到新的大樓的時候他的工作通勤的權益能夠完整的確保你內部要先有個方案出來那你這個內部的都有提出很熱血的方案我是覺得很好啊希望單位可以育成這第一個"},{"start":5458.012,"end":5474.59,"text":"二、整合出版本之後要進行行政溝通因為新的大樓在桃園所以你好歹要跟桃園市政府打打招呼過去曾經有做過這樣的嘗試可是過去都沒有把權力義務關係講清楚誰來做、什麼時候做、資源怎麼來做分配"},{"start":5475.211,"end":5498.507,"text":"那桃園市政府當然會覺得很擔心阿會不會我答應的到最後所有的事情都是我處理沒有得到外債的資源造成桃園的負擔這個是從地方政府的角度出發會有這樣的懷疑是很合理的所以中間要有人溝通我在質詢的時候我答應大家我說要跟桃園市政府溝通我來扮演這樣的角色這件事我說到做到所以我希望你們該整合該給按照時間給計畫你們也要說到做到"},{"start":5499.167,"end":5521.665,"text":"第二、行政溝通第三、真正的深水區也是我們今天要花時間討論的叫做經費來源你們很多的員工其實是希望在未來大樓離一站或兩站的機場捷運站附近如果有好的閒置的公有地來做他們希望是做像合一住宅也就是說中央處理部分的資源由建商來處理然後用一個相對低的承購價格"},{"start":5522.526,"end":5538.776,"text":"這是一個概念那我覺得我們心態可以放開一點它不見得一定要是合一住宅的形式但是它一定要是個員工宿舍的形式因為處理這個事情的目標就是要讓你這些從台北現在要到桃園來上班的人不要變成舟車勞頓的通勤族嘛"},{"start":5539.116,"end":5561.504,"text":"所以不管它的形式是什麼你總要花一點時間去做建設嘛你總要把這個建築的量體做出來好問題來了啊這年頭啊這個原物料價格大漲對不對要蓋個房子其實價格不菲那麼經費來源是哪裡這本期啊想破頭結果我看到你們報告之後我非常高興為什麼呢因為你們的原住民族政見推動規劃專題報告第9頁"},{"start":5565.085,"end":5593.085,"text":"說持續推動都市原住民族發展方案五年經費77.9億元在你們精進的專題報告裡面也明確的表格列出來不錯資料整理很好第三頁計畫目標第四項發展多元職能提升就業競爭力裡面四之三寫促進原住民就業非常高興前面我們開這個題目的原因是什麼因為你到要搬街有15%的人可能會離職啊"},{"start":5594.646,"end":5617.784,"text":"這個對原住民的就業來說他是一個負面的指標如果我們今天把這員工宿舍的配套處理好把這15%的人找回來他就促進原住民的就業所以他完全符合四之三的具體措施他不只符合四之三的具體措施他還符合六之三的具體措施六之三第六項叫多元居住方案落實居住正義其中啊"},{"start":5618.604,"end":5643.363,"text":"其實不只六之三我仔細的看了一下六之二也可以你看輔導推動原住民族住宅如果這些大部分原住民族上班的人有員工宿舍他是不是原住民住宅他當然是六之三打造都市地區原住民安居聚落非常好桃園就是都市原住民比例相對高的一個地方未來你的大樓周邊如果他們居住在附近他們就是標準的都市原住民所以你看"},{"start":5644.244,"end":5671.694,"text":"完全符合你這個原住民族發展方案各項內容所以原民會當然應該編列相關的資源我相信原民會把計畫安排好也編列了相關的預算資源的時候台灣市政府怎麼會不配合呢對不對這個既符合原民會的中央施政的總體目標又有相關的裁員又是中央跟地方可以共同創造對我國原住民族保障的政策亮點何樂而不為主委你覺得呢"},{"start":5673.267,"end":5687.756,"text":"這個我們會拜託就是快一點就是我們這裡的這個研文會這邊跟教育處這裡教育文化處這邊趕快把那個報告提出來之後我們來盤點那就有就現有可以補助的這個計畫裡面我們趕快來給協助"},{"start":5692.174,"end":5714.652,"text":"現有的補助計畫趕快給協助。」所以基本上是會蓋囉?我可以這樣子樂觀的解讀嗎?把他們的那個評估出來的那個報告趕快拿出來齁那我們拿出來之後我們來合對來討論一下是什麼地方我再給你一個禮拜但是你不能再這樣子這很糟糕我們的趙偉是原住民族很重要的角色對不對你如果再不尊重內政委員會的委員"},{"start":5715.453,"end":5733.931,"text":"那以後大家走著瞧好不好我不喜歡在質詢台上講重話可是你答應我一個月時你就要說到做到好我不只幫你想了預算我還幫你想了預算以外的事情什麼叫預算以外的事情這個我要請內政部常務市長也聽一下好不好因為這一條曾經曾經跟你們做過討論"},{"start":5735.752,"end":5763.175,"text":"這我們曾經在財政委員會質詢那時候是花市長花市長雖然現在換了一個崗位但是他一樣這個我想跟社會住宅相關的一些推動他還是很重要的一個角色我們那時候在財政委員會講的概念叫ESG現在ESG是世界企業的主流透過投資的方式對環境友善對社會責任友善這是大家鼓勵從事的一個方向那麼其中其實可以用綠色債券社會責任債券的方式來幫政府籌措裁員"},{"start":5763.795,"end":5778.409,"text":"鼓勵企業來投資啊你就發這個ESG的社會責任債券企業來進場企業得到了ESG的美名他配合了全世界的公平正義對不對你政府募到的財源相對來講你要興建合一住宅也好員工宿舍也好"},{"start":5778.829,"end":5803.82,"text":"社會住宅也好其實你是有相關多的政策武器這一件事情當初一樣在財政委員會雖然不在這裡但是花部長那個花次長當初的花次長也答應本席說內政部會進行研擬好你中間有換屆對不對總有交接這本席願意理解但是請問針對用這樣子的方式來為未來全台灣這不只是原住民族了未來全台灣的社會住宅興建來提供"},{"start":5804.5,"end":5821.796,"text":"特殊的財源讓企業可以參與請問這樣子的一個方向內政部是否有研擬是否有進展謝謝委員的推詢我想社會住宅的興建你剛談到ESG的結合這個部分其實本來在社會住宅我們也有這個努力的方向那相關的籌措財源的部分大概"},{"start":5823.045,"end":5849.173,"text":"您大概也知道我們社會住宅的興建其實現在目前仰賴就是尋找閒置的公有土地那興建財源的部分也是由行政院這邊來撥補相關的經費投入到住宅基金裡面來投入那我想這個也其實政策是延續的啦那我想我們社會住宅的政策的部分其實我們都沒有改變那委員剛提的部分我回去我們會再找租住中心跟國土署然後看怎麼樣把它強化"},{"start":5849.833,"end":5870.258,"text":"好,我也希望內政部,我們剛剛談的這個原住民族的這個特別的案子,如果內政部可以予以協助,那當然是最好,對不對?既然,你看我都幫你想到,我幫你超前部族,萬一政府編不出來,對不對?我都在講你可以發行ESG的相關的一個債券,對,我們都很努力,就希望促成好的政策啦,好不好?希望內政部也好,原民會也好,不要讓本席失望,可以嗎?好,辛苦,謝謝!"},{"start":5871.138,"end":5884.227,"text":"好,非常謝謝劉錫廷委員。身為原住民的議員跟召委,非常感謝你對於原住民的這個權益部分。謝謝。我會跟你一起努力來監督。好,謝謝。我們請劉錫廷委員來暫代召委。謝謝。好,謝謝。下一位我們請高金素美委員上台發言。謝謝主席,有請曾主委。曾主委有請。"},{"start":5904.215,"end":5913.44,"text":"曾主委因為您上次在這邊考試沒有通過今天是您的補考希望你好好的表現那另外我要再請陳副主席長陳副主席長有請"},{"start":5916.485,"end":5936.86,"text":"主委這提醒您,您上次知道您的業務範圍就是爭取預算、修法、立法,對不對?那現在我跟這個陳副主計長在這邊對話,請你好好聽一下。陳副主計長,晚上請問你有新制定的法案,或者是修正的法案,政府就應該要依據法案內容增加預算,對不對?"},{"start":5938.274,"end":5939.175,"text":"我們就依據那個來編列預算"},{"start":5954.397,"end":5974.33,"text":"好我再給你一個案例好了就是為了因應一百年12月2號老年農民福利津貼暫行條例第四條還有第六條的修正草案還有國民年金法增訂第54條之一條的條文修正草案在立法院也三讀通過了因為他的預算增加"},{"start":5974.97,"end":5988.504,"text":"所以行政院立刻提出預算修正案送立法院審議甚至還說如果預算仍然不足的話那麼就同意中央要特別用統籌分配稅款來支應增加了163.57億"},{"start":5993.423,"end":6010.821,"text":"聽清楚了對吧請問副組長這是不是因為因應條文修正案三讀通過以後我們增加預算的案例而且不管是行政院提出或立法院提出因為這幾個案子都有提出只要是三讀通過就必須這樣處理對嗎"},{"start":6012.463,"end":6028.079,"text":"跟文報,就是說一百零零一年那個階段他是透過立法院的朝野協商結論,但是他是先刪減然後這個先有一個通案刪減。好,那請你告訴我現在的禁法補償也是立法院修法通過的啊?"},{"start":6028.619,"end":6044.17,"text":"是,那我們現在那個階段跟當時不太一樣為什麼不太一樣我們現在還處於行政院還在籌編預算的階段對,現在接著下來我就要跟您講這件問題所以不要告訴我立法院在立法院通過的法案你們不可以"},{"start":6045.15,"end":6070.308,"text":"來挪用。」就是我在總質詢的時候那你們現在中央總預算總共有三兆兩千億對不對?而原民會現在也正在要籌編預算給你們嗎?被匡列預算是125億嘛那針對柯建民說他要要求原民會自己在他們的內算預算裡面去挪縮其實他是"},{"start":6071.209,"end":6084.506,"text":"逾越了我們的行政院的權限。」所以,請曾主委聽好,謝謝主席長。我們來看一下,那個副主席長,你的答詢,"},{"start":6087.902,"end":6115.493,"text":"再更簡單一下因應法律案的通過所以增加相關預算這是一個常態嘛不會不是常態嘛所以這也是一個法律義務嘛 對不對所以當時我們在修訂這兩個法的時候增加了總共是163.57億可是我們現在回頭來看一下經法補償才只有26億好 原民會主委還有原住民主計主任簡主任"},{"start":6118.4,"end":6131.434,"text":"請這個這個副組記者不好意思我可以還是補充說明就是說我們針對法案通過的那個項目我們一定會編預算我知道我知道編預算到底要怎麼做會影響其他計畫目前不確定是對吧"},{"start":6134.037,"end":6144.507,"text":"對嘛,我剛剛就講了嘛,你們上面那個兩個總共增加163.57億,淨法補償只有26億,我要跟您講的是26億跟163.57億這麼大的一個差別,行政院都可以編列,而原民會的26億,我們柯總召卻要原民會自己去挪,你覺得這合理嗎?好,請你休息一下。"},{"start":6160.857,"end":6181.829,"text":"請您休息一下我知道了你們必須在你們的三兆兩千億裡面去挪用我也請行政院長回去考慮也是原民會現在你的責任了原民會主委還有簡主任你們聽到了沒有因應法律通過就必須可以增加相關預算所以我們從最簡單的開始今年原民會預算多少"},{"start":6182.847,"end":6193.096,"text":"明年是籌編125億好那在籌備25億中央政府總預算有多少?剛剛我也講算照2000億好"},{"start":6194.873,"end":6217.247,"text":"所以也就是說三兆兩千億中央也有增加一成然後原民會你們也增加一成嘛對不對按照這樣的比例來看嘛那原民會的預算目前125億五月初你們核定的是125億但是呢我知道行政院在5月20號他曾經發文要求重新要調整喔所以6月20號你們要重新報院對不對"},{"start":6219.977,"end":6227.683,"text":"我現在在籌編的狀態好 在籌編也就是說有一個月的期間嘛從520一直到現在所以運算額度是可以調整的對不對所以125億不是最終的額度嘛對 目前還沒好 現在來了金髮補償三度通過前125億6月4號通過了要增加26億很簡單125億加26億等於151億所以原民會你們在6月20號之前是不是會提這樣的數字給行政院"},{"start":6249.673,"end":6254.098,"text":"我先跟委員報告,我們現在還在籌編當中啦我知道啊,你說是還是不是嘛現在還在籌編當中那是不是?因為立法院三讀通過啦這個預算是在你原民會裡面啊所以你要125億加26億等於是151億啊"},{"start":6267.688,"end":6273.555,"text":"還是你已經說服了行政院長說在他的三兆裡面去增加你現在告訴我們這個我們會持續來跟院裡面拜託跟溝通那目前的籌編狀態就是說還是在125億這裡"},{"start":6284.207,"end":6304.566,"text":"主委我現在是特別要告訴你你是原民會的主委爭取預算是你的工作如果你在6月20號以前不把這個25億放在你的預算裡面那你就有本事讓3兆2000億裡面中央去算你有沒有這個本事你能不能答應我"},{"start":6305.868,"end":6320.919,"text":"我會盡全力來跟院裡面拜託跟溝通因為希望這個…那你現在能夠告訴我到底要編在哪裡嗎?你的期望我現在齁還整…僅能就目前因為這個計畫補償增加了這個3萬塊之後總的經費會增加到52億"},{"start":6325.495,"end":6335.8,"text":"我知道我跟你算過啦26億啦增加26億啦以前的就不要再算你就是在以前的錢裡面增加26億嘛增加26億我現在簡單的告訴你如果你不匡列在你的預算的話那是你的失職因為柯主委已經在協商的時候告訴你了他希望在你的預算裡面編列如果我在預算書看不到你增加這26億就是你失職"},{"start":6351.067,"end":6374.454,"text":"我會跟會裡面跟這個院裡面一定會持續來溝通來拜託如果沒有的話你要不要辭職這26月很重要啊而且這個柯總召或者是這個吳思瑤都已經說會排擠你其他的預算啊那排擠你的預算的話就是傷害原住民嗎是你傷害原住民喔不是行政院長傷害原住民喔"},{"start":6375.174,"end":6389.985,"text":"也不是賴清德總統傷害原住民你要記得這樣子尊主委你不要習慣給自己穿小鞋你要去極力爭取不是柯總召說什麼就什麼你知道嗎我們是立法委員你是行政官員而且你的前老闆是誰我的老闆是老百姓沒有你的前老闆在屏東縣攀什麼"},{"start":6401.503,"end":6427.621,"text":"他是我以前的縣長對嘛就是以前你是以前的原民局原民處處長嘛也是你前老闆嘛對不對他現在是誰賴清德總統旁邊是誰秘書長對所以他會直接跟總統接近嘛對不對所以你要跟你的前老闆講不要傷害原住民我們只有25億而已而且這是我們的土地轉型正義好不好今天要做到好接著下來新的重點再給我一點時間抱歉來"},{"start":6430.717,"end":6450.086,"text":"行政院5月20號他有發文要求各機關他們的預算施政重點要調整然後在施政重點當中原民會把要依據憲法法庭判決結果要儘速完成原住民的身份法的修法這是你列為第一項因為這是總統的政見那請問你要怎麼做"},{"start":6452.004,"end":6476.367,"text":"這個就是說我們對平埔族的這個認定我們希望先給他一個民族先認定後面再來認定身份沒有啊你看一下105年9月27號當時台南市的市長也就是賴清德市長他講第一個原住民身份法要增訂第二條第三款平埔原住民然後讓平埔族群依法認定身份"},{"start":6477.388,"end":6483.552,"text":"二、要你即刻盤點平埔族群相關的基礎資源,並且依據人數要編列預算,設定其層給予應有的權利。三、過渡期要建議先以民進黨不分區的立委席次,要分配一席給平埔族群主委 。"},{"start":6501.523,"end":6518.012,"text":"你已經盤點評估族群相關的基礎資料嗎?然後相關的資源有哪些你可以不簡單講?上一次我就問過你這個問題今天再讓你補考一次委員我跟妳報告應該有什麼它的相關資源你講的這個第一點第二點也並不衝突沒有錯要先認"},{"start":6518.692,"end":6546.461,"text":"沒有啦沒有衝突這是賴總統講的他在做台南市長的時候他講的先認定民主再認定身份因為他已經是做台南市長了嘛現在是總統了嘛所以我把他的三項講話告訴你沒有衝突我也沒有認為我也沒有多加這是他講的話所以呢他要你盤點相關的基礎資源然後相關資源有哪些你知不知道因為你要去落實他呀我知道就是說有哪些"},{"start":6547.56,"end":6566.039,"text":"一、二,這個我們不談,就是一樣在做,但是第三目前是還沒有,第三還沒有,那你說沒有啦,相關資源,相關資源,第二點,即刻盤點評普族群相關基礎資源,主委我跟委員報告我已經上次問過你了"},{"start":6568.155,"end":6582.64,"text":"好了你不要浪費我的時間預算經費要不要有社會福利教育資源要不要有傳統領域土地要不要有如果按照這樣子來講的話你113年預算來算的話只有110億當時我們原住民人口只有58.9萬如果平均每一個原住民可以分享到的預算是18675塊"},{"start":6597.266,"end":6601.47,"text":"2022年原民會你們的統計平補足的人數大概是98萬人而98萬人如果以113年的110億的預算來算的話你們總共要增加183億請問一下現在連26億行政院都不要編了183億會編嗎?你要怎麼編?"},{"start":6621.147,"end":6632.579,"text":"我跟委員報告因為平埔族這個身份認定是到明年的這個10月27到明年的10月27有了身份之後所以我現在告訴你你要預告我們怎麼弄啊你不能夠說這些東西出來你才要去想啊主委第一個他們到底"},{"start":6641.008,"end":6664.944,"text":"最後來登記的評估組是多少人你要有預估現在原民會給我的是98萬人你為什麼還要讓他們來登記呢主委你到底有沒有準備好今天所以我再問你我再問你另外的問題增加的183億你現在告訴我的評估組人是98萬你想好要怎麼編譯了嗎有還是沒有"},{"start":6666.445,"end":6679.442,"text":"那會不會排擠以後原住民的法定的這些預算?會好 會 好 大家聽好了 會如果這些人他會排擠就表示原民會"},{"start":6682.057,"end":6706.846,"text":"爭取預算不力,他不願意讓行政院多出183億,要在原民會裡面的預算去排擠。」第二,土地的部分依照平埔族群,他們一定會有傳統領域,他們也必須去增化編原保地。我們目前原住民的原保地26萬公頃,為了平埔族群,我們要增加多少,你知道嗎?"},{"start":6708.443,"end":6709.869,"text":"你不知道40到50萬公頃你要怎麼處理"},{"start":6714.005,"end":6743.405,"text":"你現在沒有辦法回答我怎麼處理但是你要想好怎麼處理不要浪費時間沒有時間了再來主委你有沒有考慮到參政權參政權要怎麼處理雖然賴清德說議席這個這個這個所謂的民進黨的不分區他要放議席這個不會影響到整個全體的參政權但是這個平他要放在三原還是平原還是其他的方案還是"},{"start":6744.325,"end":6760.475,"text":"什麼?有沒有講好?有沒有想好?立法委員的部會這個要修憲啦!那議員的部會...你不能完整講!完整講!如果修憲它會不會是一個很大的一個方向?它為什麼要修憲?它是放在平地原住民呢?還是山地原住民嗎?因為你...第三類的原住民...山地原住民、平地原住民...請旁邊的人不要給他打pass!他今天是來考試的!"},{"start":6771.705,"end":6791.551,"text":"平埔的原住民他不會跟山地原住民還有平地原住民合在一起好講的很好的答案就是講清楚一下平埔族是另外另類平埔族他不會在平原跟山原裡面對不對對好也就是說平埔族他們會有三席的立委是這樣的意思嗎不是那是怎樣"},{"start":6792.811,"end":6804.403,"text":"跟委員報告,議員的席次一定要修憲。」好嘛,我也知道修憲嘛,所以這件事情,原民會提出了法案,最終要修憲嘛,對不對?是。好,謝謝你齁。然後議員呢?代表呢?"},{"start":6811.175,"end":6816.5,"text":"一眼修法就可以一眼修法就可以好 因為沒有跟地方政府討論過你知道我們現在在修地質法的時候已經是多辛苦了嗎只是增加議員跟代表的席次在這裡的立法委員都吵得一塌糊塗所以"},{"start":6826.77,"end":6839.517,"text":"你要如何落實賴總統的政見不是一個原民會說你要修法就可以啦你真的已經準備好了嗎主委你真的沒有準備好今天我問你的這個簡單的問題你都還在這邊搞不太清楚今天因為時間到了你看到了沒有我才問你幾個問題兩個問題一個是進法補償一個是你剛剛說要落實這個原住民證這不要談教育我要講這個提一下你的教育裡面還沒有講原"},{"start":6854.545,"end":6883.685,"text":"賴總統的雙軌制度什麼是雙軌制度你沒有講清楚你今天提的這個書面報告都是以前9年前本席在教育文化委員會的時候跟我們原民會的教育處整合的平台你知道嗎你沒有把賴總統的雙軌教育制度放在你今天的報告說明裡面我有報告剛剛的報告就是先訂立一個那什麼叫做雙軌雙軌就是足以跟一般的教育"},{"start":6884.325,"end":6902.346,"text":"那你清楚知道現在有民族教育了嗎?有幾所?現在民族教育還在做還沒有到大概只有到七年級啦像一些這個實驗還在實驗的當中啦那是不是所謂的雙軌叫實踐嘛對不對?那你要怎麼實踐?"},{"start":6905.068,"end":6922.084,"text":"我目前先把基礎打好基礎是我們幫你打好的高金素梅九年當中跟原民會前面的主委但是你要怎麼樣落實賴總統的東西我還是沒有看到啊主委回去再準備一下好不好謝謝你謝謝高金召委的質詢"},{"start":6935.063,"end":6941.065,"text":"好,謝謝我們的牛旭廷委員正召委,那我們繼續請黃仁委員來質詢。有請曾主委。有請曾主委。麻煩你,麻煩你。"},{"start":6966.263,"end":6989.962,"text":"今天我也很感慨前任的幾個立委在詢問你的時候你都是在狀況外那狀況外還不打緊很多的重要的議題你都是在打馬敷衍對我們原住民的提升"},{"start":6991.874,"end":7013.471,"text":"完全沒有幫助而且是向下沉淪所以我特別本席特別提醒你我們從今而後我們不斷的要盯住你對原住民的政策你不要到時候潘孟安我們的總統府秘書長提名你作為主委之後他是饅頭豆花"},{"start":7015.249,"end":7036.688,"text":"滿頭豆花你要站在這個位置上上次我也提醒你是全國人在看你有沒有帶領著我們原住民的進步跟發展跟被認定我們的原住民的地位我們地位不是要跟人家戰爭也不是跟人家做比較"},{"start":7037.629,"end":7052.638,"text":"我們要回歸到歷史的真相要懷疑真相要給我們一個真正的認同的原住民族在台灣這就是我今天要特別提醒你敬法補賞"},{"start":7054.478,"end":7078.015,"text":"請問一下進法補償你過去也二十幾年前你也提到進法補償希望能夠照顧到我們這個偏鄉或是在山嶺的這些原住民能夠落實從幾萬塊、三萬塊而進額到這一次的三讀通過提升為六萬塊陳怡瑩立委還有吳立華立委都同意"},{"start":7079.342,"end":7099.06,"text":"我們不分政黨都同意希望趕快進法補償能夠來爭取不在你的預算之內來編列應該在三兆以上來爭取原住民的進法補償是直接的對原住民的照顧"},{"start":7100.541,"end":7109.325,"text":"那怎麼會一直想不出來你一直在裡面打擾打擾說我的進法補償是不是在你的編列預算裡面來編列這個26億不對主席數"},{"start":7113.963,"end":7138.049,"text":"你不要被主席所引導你的思維你今天要替原住民爭取說既然三讀通過就是要為我們的預算要增加不是在你的預算裡面來編列出來所以這個概念難道沒有嗎?如果你在今天你是剛上任為禁法補償全國裡面的這些6萬塊你是得勝一個"},{"start":7142.771,"end":7143.471,"text":"你現在就是要為我們三讀通過的這個議題裡面"},{"start":7161.568,"end":7178.795,"text":"要為原住民的預算要爭取這就是你的責任不是到後來是提皮球說因為怎麼樣怎麼樣你要跟業務會要雙向溝通我們為什麼會提高這個"},{"start":7179.815,"end":7206.252,"text":"我們訪官現在百工百業百工百業你看一下我們百工百業甚至原住民現在的經濟經濟能力下滑都沒有辦法提升農業農業的這個部分沒有辦法出去光光沒有辦法來循環的經濟造成他們現在的生活處境煤礦業下情何以堪"},{"start":7208.583,"end":7234.101,"text":"總統蔡英文承認蔡英文曾經對我們全國原住民道歉的目的在哪裡?就是懷疑歷史、懷疑真相就是要實質要照顧原住民的基礎的一個建設包含他的生活、包含他的歷史還有他的生存的定義、土地的保障今天我們要講的是原住民富裕給我們的原住民保留地要怎麼釋放"},{"start":7238.828,"end":7247,"text":"第二、我們未來的原住民空間不是縮小第二、我們"},{"start":7248.433,"end":7276.326,"text":"沒有反對平埔署回歸原住民的歷史我們沒有反對我們在民國11年的時候我已經在我們在新北市市議會裡面有召開全國的民意代表的原住民民意代表包含頭目齊老的會議針對我們平埔署的回歸的態度表達了我們很多的一些方針"},{"start":7277.711,"end":7292.742,"text":"但是這涉入到我們16屬的未來的生存包含參政權包含教育土地的立場那你們為什麼不循著不循著什麼"},{"start":7294.448,"end":7322.139,"text":"客家委員會為以前在客家委員會沒有的時候那為什麼他們要爭取客家委員會也因為他們要受到他們的文化的尊重他們延續他們的民族的延續的歷史那今天評普組回來我們沒有反對但是你們為什麼不循著跟客家委員會的這樣的一個政策來做"},{"start":7324.458,"end":7352.981,"text":"來做獨立性的然後再來看看他們的預算怎麼編列以按照他現在的人口數來做編列而不是在毀搖到我們16組平定人和三定人的16組請問我們最早的祖先曾經在這個台灣上被罵什麼西華納是誰講的不是我們原住民講的西華納西華納是一個是非常啟示對原住民的不尊重這誰講的"},{"start":7356.855,"end":7376.627,"text":"這些祖先過去遭受這樣的民族的不同的文化被抨擊、被啟示、被趕到山上請問現在平埔鼠要回來了那為什麼不跟過去你們跟我們的祖先並在一起接受歷史的考驗"},{"start":7377.928,"end":7395.957,"text":"到現在你要去思考這個思維原住民在這個地方我們沒有跟人家要做競爭我們希望給我們的是一個保障對我們的歷史跟我們現在的土地要有一個真正的還原歷史"},{"start":7397.057,"end":7413.456,"text":"所以我們常常講說原住民的保留地為什麼要放寬使用你要讓他有自主經濟能力、行款能力然後讓他們自主自給但是有關於我們水源地、散布地之外"},{"start":7414.517,"end":7432.366,"text":"他富裕在延期法裡面富裕的原保地應該給他們一個放寬的使用也讓他們有循環的經濟也讓他們跟銀行作為值貸借貸然後去建設他的自己的這些產業"},{"start":7433.947,"end":7455.062,"text":"這樣才是實質的可以照顧到原住民的本身的基本生活的條件這就是你的責任我未來我一定會再問你基本的研究法土海法這一些土地的放寬使用未來我一定會慢慢的質詢你以上好,非常謝謝黃人委員的質詢也謝謝曾助委謝謝繼續我們請黃婕委員"},{"start":7471.53,"end":7475.649,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我們請曾主委、原民會曾主委也請曾主委謝謝"},{"start":7480.748,"end":7504.767,"text":"好 主委好首先我想要請教一下因為我們今天要談論這個都市地區的原住民族的處境那我想問一下就是說如果我們在還沒有立專法之前現在的都市地區的原住民族的發展方案裡面我有看到一個非常重要的就是我們教育部其實有在都市地區的中小學開設原住民族的文化特色課程"},{"start":7505.968,"end":7511.494,"text":"那我認為這個是非常好的我看了一下去年的這個計畫是有在10個縣市然後29個學校參與對嗎?"},{"start":7516.294,"end":7544.028,"text":"就一步推了對那我想問一下我們原民會在當中的角色是什麼因為我會想問這個是因為我們高雄非常的特別我們高雄市全台灣唯一一個縣市有16族的原住民族的一個縣市那我也非常重視我看到這個課程認為說我們原民會若在當中有非常重要的角色也有在協助這樣的課程參與的話在高雄是不是也可以大力來推動呢"},{"start":7545.439,"end":7552.208,"text":"這個是教育部他是負責一般的學校是那我們原住民是負責原住民地區的這個重點學校"},{"start":7552.725,"end":7577.821,"text":"好那我在這邊想要建議啦因為我們高雄我剛也講說我們高雄真的16族都有那我們高雄市也非常積極的在把這個16族的文化也都保存起來然後也希望可以積極的發展所以也希望接下來原民會可以多多重視我們高雄的原住民族相關的與這些文化的保存那如果我們高雄的學校也有來協助的話你們也來積極的來配合好嗎"},{"start":7583.465,"end":7604.676,"text":"那再來我請教一下這個進度因為其實在今年的5月6號也就是一個月之前我們院長就有來我們高雄來視察這個國立國家的原住民博物館那這個國家級的博物館其實在高雄也推了10年好不容易接下來要準備要開始籌備了"},{"start":7606.477,"end":7630.394,"text":"那可是目前還看不到我們任何動工的進度然後也本來也預計說還要到2032年才有機會來完工那我當然會希望說可以提早動工提早籌備提早開始因為我知道其實前期作業已經做得非常的充足了包括可行性評估環境影響評估其實都做得差不多了接下來就是時程的問題不知道有沒有機會提前來完工呢"},{"start":7635.114,"end":7657.786,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經在5月29號就已經成立這個籌備這個專案小組而且開過兩次的專案小組的會議我們希望能夠修訂這個研博館的暫行組織規程還有這些他的這個辦事的細則我們希望很快的讓這個這個籌備小組專案小組趕快先做然後籌備書趕快先成立這樣好"},{"start":7659.427,"end":7666.616,"text":"所以籌備出現在的進度然後什麼時候可以開工啊我就先告訴我什麼時候動工就好因為我看你們新聞報導是說你們要等到明年才動工是嗎"},{"start":7674.15,"end":7689.097,"text":"這個動工或淨土是跟高雄市政府來一起的是高雄市政府來做那我們會密切跟高雄市政府希望趕快的來做這個我們的專案小組成立之後就會很快跟高雄市政府來做更進一步的一個這個讓他速度快一點"},{"start":7690.267,"end":7714.649,"text":"好真的要拜託喔因為這個我們都很期待那好再來請教一下這個原住民保留地的開發管理辦法這其實我前兩次的質詢也都有在問那因為這個其實之前我也問說目前這個法律未接過地的問題所以導致這些之前都有一些相關的爭議嗎包括說原保地的流失甚至是有一些"},{"start":7715.129,"end":7744.349,"text":"例子是說因為他不當的透過人頭然後會轉賣給非原住民這些問題其實新聞上都有出現那我想問的是我們現在有一個非常重要的希望提升他法律未接的方式就是原住民保留地的這個管理利用條例的草案那之前其實原民會也都希望說要來提升他的法律未接我不知道說其實原民會應該籌備已久才對什麼時候原本要送進來啊"},{"start":7746.69,"end":7773.162,"text":"我們現在在還需要我們是有這個版本我們還需要在跨部會讓其他部會瞭解一下這個這個他位階的提升會碰到什麼樣的一個問題所以有在溝通了嗎有有那我想我們希望這個會期下個會期什麼時候希望在這個年底好不好好年底之前把原住民族保留地管理利用條例送進立法院這是我們原民會的承諾"},{"start":7774.758,"end":7798.669,"text":"年底送行政院然後我們再來送大衛行政院年底送行政院對對因為還要跨部會的一些協商所以還要再半年是可不可以年底送進來我們立法院這個我們交委也非常關心我們努力啦好啦希望你有魄力一點啦把這個願意的積極度拿出來拜託了好謝謝剩下一點時間我們請谷主委好謝謝曾主委也請谷主委"},{"start":7807.413,"end":7830.49,"text":"無厭吼好 谷主委好我要請教一下因為其實之前這個客家基本法裡面有提到我們要把客家語言發展法在這個基礎之上也送進來那這個進度我也一直在追那我上一次質詢的時候我是有問到說我們現在行政立法的協調會已經有開了那後來其實有一些比較有爭議的"},{"start":7831.591,"end":7851.702,"text":"條文應該也都有處理了包括說之前有一個大家比較爭議的說是不是要有所謂的客家客語發展長這樣的職位還有另外就是說這個客家重點發展地裡面的公務人員的比例要取得客語能力的比例要跟在地的客家人口的比例一致"},{"start":7852.262,"end":7859.347,"text":"那這個都是之前有一些地方政府反映說這可能實情上會有困難所以後來你們這個爭議也都有去協調了,對嗎?有協調,但是還是要跟國普府再去協商去討論將有法律在金融部聽案"},{"start":7871.519,"end":7898.13,"text":"所以現在我想問的是說如果協調的結果就是如果已經有順利的話那我們接下來是不是就把這些沒有爭議的版本要送進來呢目前吼還有一些一些小小的一些些爭議啦必須要講就是除了這個這兩個比較大的爭議點之外還有一些還在溝通的還有還有還有還有還有所以還有法律案件送來立法院"},{"start":7899.21,"end":7925.497,"text":"好那當然我覺得其實有一些可以送進來我們再來討論啦像是說是不是用鼓勵的性質像是說把這個客語作為優先的通行語這件事情其實送進來大家可以再討論是不是就是用鼓勵性質、獎勵性質或者是說怎麼樣讓地方政府在特定的公部門要一定有設置這樣的客語的單位那這些都是我也希望可以再努力的部分啦"},{"start":7926.577,"end":7953.403,"text":"完全認同王議員的看法,用鼓勵我們拿出罰則的部分,不是處罰的方式。是啦,不要有罰則啦,對啊,當然是希望說用鼓勵代替責備啦,因為講母語這件事情不應該是說用懲罰的,那用懲罰的其實只會造成反效果,所以我也是希望說如果可以盡量就是讓你們先去盤點一下目前使用的比例是多少,那如何就是用一些具體的措施來獎勵嘛。"},{"start":7958.044,"end":7977.909,"text":"這部分希望我們趕快也把這個相關的爭議處理好之後,趕快看什麼時候要送進來。好,也要我們親快、各界各部份再去協調一下,針對地方的條文還有內地要去貴的,也要我們來處理。好,那看是不是也是可以年底?"},{"start":7979.353,"end":8002.154,"text":"有機會嗎?因為其實這個溝通,剩下的細節我覺得都已經不是太大的爭議了。那最後一個,這個也是上一次我有詢問的,就是客語輸入法,因為當時啊,其實我在上一次的質詢的時候,有說有要寄信跟,像是跟Apple跟Google他們反映說,我們有一些輸入法,"},{"start":8002.714,"end":8016.582,"text":"可以去溝通,那現在要再協調,我不知道說這個輸入法的部分,我們是不是也有在技術上做更新了呢?同委員報告：,現在我們在數據的數据法：還有評論：,目前我們很想在9月就可以用的,就可以使用,來完成。是,對,我知道你們其實"},{"start":8025.708,"end":8029.911,"text":"對,這個上一次主委也有講過只是說那個iOS的部分,沒錯沒錯,因為它顯示顯智,顯示的問題有困難目前行政院也請其他的部份,包括事發部還有經濟部,去跟內團的合作,去協調當然,如果協調有一個結構之前我們也要顯示的部分,會用圖片的方式,去跟困難的事"},{"start":8055.512,"end":8057.913,"text":"財團法人原住民權益保障措施與新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益"},{"start":8077.435,"end":8086.064,"text":"好,非常謝謝黃婕委員的質詢,謝謝主委,謝謝。我們待會請徐益臻委員,我們就先休息五分鐘,請徐益臻委員質詢,謝謝。謝謝主席,我們請吳長次。好,請吳長次。"},{"start":8104.126,"end":8120.704,"text":"我想請教一下就是民進黨的立委沈伯陽說這個第五縱隊就是不完全是這個中共的間諜也不是可能不是一開始就背叛國家但中共可能威脅在中國做生意或有七小在中國的人"},{"start":8121.184,"end":8145.306,"text":"那他說這類的高風險族群有幾十萬人一開始就要管好那臺灣也有可能被中共威脅會為其做事可能在立法院、地方宮廟這些都有一開始可能都要管理好我想請教一下長賜就是他講的這個第五縱隊而且也把立法院放進去就是也把立委這個案子有可能是第五縱隊的成員那請問您到立法院備詢會擔心嗎"},{"start":8148.164,"end":8173.926,"text":"跟委員報告,因為實際上所謂的第五宗這個定義我並不是特別清楚,不過依照人民的自由,我想相關權利都要獲得保障。所以針對他說的這個部分的話,他說因為事實上不管是宮廟還有他提到什麼黑幫都是內政部的業務範圍,那內政部有沒有在管理這個他所謂的這個中高風險的族群呢?"},{"start":8174.286,"end":8175.827,"text":"現在是不是來台工作的這個大陸籍人士都是屬於高風險族群呢?"},{"start":8198.613,"end":8209.868,"text":"這邊跟委員報告,那個大陸人士如果要來台灣,大家大概有行,比如說在陸委會這邊要審查資格,那我們在這邊是移民署的部分,是針對他的身份的部分,那我們會進行一個"},{"start":8211.608,"end":8239.364,"text":"來台的資格調查,會同陸委會。」主要是這樣。他還特別提到,因為這個部分,所以在這邊要請教內政部有沒有所謂的專門的作戰中心來因應這個第五縱隊跟潛在的在地協助者。謝謝委員吹噓,這個,並沒有這個東西。那我想為什麼會特別提到這個第五縱隊,那請問一下這個次長,就是你認不認同這個沈伯陽委員的這種認知說法?"},{"start":8241.1,"end":8255.549,"text":"這跟委員報告好那我想在立院各位委員都有他表達的自由為什麼我會特別提到呢是因為在內政部的書面報告第一頁所提到的我們以新住民來說有59萬6162人其中大陸港澳地區大概有38萬5026人佔了64.58%那外籍配合人數大概是21萬1136人那我們可以看得出來"},{"start":8271.12,"end":8292.116,"text":"超過六成以上的新住民都是來自大陸跟港澳地區所以針對這個部分,內政部在推動各項措施的時候有提到說會強化新住民社會適應的方案那請問一下,會不會以國家安全有高度的風險而以監控為前提進行規劃呢?"},{"start":8293.713,"end":8315.573,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢我想這個移民政策的部分其實我們是沒有考慮到那個部分因為他的移民的身份的組成主要就是您剛講的有婚姻移民那這個部分大陸跟那個來自其他各國的都佔將近都差不多一半那我想這個在組成裡面我們應該是說輔導新住民如何融入我國如何融入我國的生活那我們對於新住民的政策主要是以這個方式"},{"start":8316.576,"end":8343.047,"text":"希望說我們針對不同地區來的這個新住民都能夠有這個不要有差別待遇希望都是能一致的標準來去對待這些嫁到我們台灣來或是融入我們台灣的這些新住民希望能夠不要用這種認知作戰的方式還來威脅大家恐嚇大家我覺得這個部分可能請內政部一定要有特別的這個針對這個不同的族群能夠一致的標準是的我們會來處理"},{"start":8344.848,"end":8350.533,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們請原住民的曾主委跟客委會的谷主委尤其曾主委還有谷主委謝謝謝謝吳長次謝謝"},{"start":8358.302,"end":8374.075,"text":"我想先請教一下曾主委就是在5月30的時候我們高經招委已經有排過您的業務報告當時您對這個原民會的業務還不是很熟悉那經過了兩個禮拜了那我現在針對您所提出來賴總統的政見跟您請教幾個問題"},{"start":8377.057,"end":8393.53,"text":"首先有關這個2023年賴總統請原民會務必神聖積極的處理平樸族證明後續的法治工作讓平樸族的身份認同感獲得保障請問一下上次本席也有請教過您針對平樸族獲得這個"},{"start":8397.873,"end":8410.998,"text":"原民族的身份之後的相關的權益。」那上次主委有提到,我也有請教您說,如果準備正名後可不可以買原住民的保留地?主委說可以,但這樣對原住民公平嗎?"},{"start":8412.675,"end":8431.975,"text":"現在的法令是不行那未來就是說他起的原住民身份之後那麼他的權益到底是要跟原住民是一模一樣還是要有一些這個尤其是土地的部分他們的傳統利益是不是要劃入我們原住民的變成原住民保留地這個還要後期來跟他們來做討論"},{"start":8433.419,"end":8447.718,"text":"這個影響非常大所以可能要請這曾主委要好好的來去針對這個部分因為剛剛我想高進稍微提到平府只有98萬人我們現有的原住民才50幾萬人這樣子的一個權益包括說包括你剛剛講的編列預算各方面"},{"start":8448.098,"end":8473.379,"text":"甚至進法補償條例剛提到的都26億都還要用現有的經費去做支出所以真的都排擠到我們原來原住民的相關的運算所以這個部分可能要麻煩主要特別特別的用心來處理這樣的一個問題那還有一個問題請教主委就是以雲林為例雲林的平埔族社區有包括搭他禮物、鴻門社、彩禮社、貓耳乾社、南社、邦港社、西螺社"},{"start":8473.999,"end":8496.405,"text":"未來平埔族取得身份之後是不是可以主張他們的傳統領域那未來這些區域所有的開發都要跟部落公告進行部落會議跟平埔族諮商並取得平埔族的這個同意之後才能開發嗎?他們取得身份之後未來我們一定還會跟他們做很多的諮商還有就是大家一起來討論後續的有關潛力義務的問題"},{"start":8500.297,"end":8512.586,"text":"所以貧苦族證明之後要處理的問題非常多包括上一次諮詢的時候我也有提到的那些問題還有今天提到這些問題所以請你們一定要多多注意接下來我要請谷主委"},{"start":8515.223,"end":8529.375,"text":"李燕皓之前陽明交通大學與產學合作之名要把客家學院校區興建商辦大樓,那課委只有在5月1號呼籲陽明交通大學要保存,但是我剛剛"},{"start":8530.576,"end":8560.036,"text":"看到你今天的客委會的報告是都會區各族群權益保障措施跟精進方案那有沒有提到這件事情發生在都會區的一個大事然後你在報告第二頁有指到積極重建客庄投入相關資源於都會客家然後推展客家藝文或文化等等在持續在都會區復振客家文化形塑都會客家新貌請問主委針對這個部分您現在有什麼看法"},{"start":8561.197,"end":8567.041,"text":"楊明教大一件事,我們支持希望可以保留當地的景觀和美腹當地的文化,所以提貓,所以我們希望在歷史文化地盤可以保留下來,這是我們的立場。在五月7號的時節,其實已經"},{"start":8587.197,"end":8595.562,"text":"已經終止其提點,全聯電子已經無法部署本在交通太好、在氣、在體力的,所以現在已經結束了當然結束後,我們的立場和全國保留客家基金、客家文化的一致,所以未來我們可能可以跟"},{"start":8615.735,"end":8636.506,"text":"所以谷主委的意思是這個目前已經取消了這個新版大樓的這個計畫是嗎?我想這部分的話其實對我們客家的這個文化的保存有非常重要的意義那另外再請教您就是平埔族證明取得身份之後會不會跟客家族群的權益有所衝突?那客委會有沒有進行相關的研究?"},{"start":8637.326,"end":8664.856,"text":"目前沒有英雄的存在,因為原住民的法案部分跟客家沒有相關,所以現在沒有存在,跟客家的提起沒有關係。但是平埔族過去的部落可能會跟客家族群會有重疊到,所以說可能要請客委會特別針對這兩者的文化在同一個區塊共存共榮的發展好嗎?"},{"start":8665.727,"end":8671.031,"text":"好,要感謝委員,過去我們針對客家跟原住民有針對客家跟原住民的選法歷史來做研究,互為主體的研究當然,客家跟原住民的評估出也有該度的重疊性的部分,也要我們第一題,歷史當中的第一題也可以針對這部分進一步的做研究,來瞭解,沒問題"},{"start":8695.088,"end":8695.248,"text":"感謝委員"},{"start":8734.496,"end":8744.34,"text":"財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、"},{"start":9151.896,"end":9159.439,"text":"謝謝,請大家回座安靜一下,我們準備開始質詢了。好,繼續我們有請吳祁銘召委。好,召委。與會同仁,請我們原民會我們的主委。有請曾主委。"},{"start":9181.92,"end":9195.972,"text":"主委好主委好今天我們來審查我們的原住民族的原住民族主流友善公共空間計畫那本席是都會區"},{"start":9197.273,"end":9209.51,"text":"在都會區裡面,我們都會區裡面有很多原住民因為我看我們原住民族群主流化友善公共空間我們4年編了10億"},{"start":9213.095,"end":9235.847,"text":"那十一就在我的選區有一個原住民生態公園這個地方相信主委也有聽過還有就是我本席常在關心的就是我們的原住民的紀委所紀委所我們已經我講了已經三"},{"start":9237.317,"end":9262.562,"text":"連這一屆已經三屆了那基會所的地方我們是極力的要來推動那本席也知道說新北市我們有提供公有的土地那是不是主委這邊在經費方面要怎樣來統籌包含在生態公園那一邊還有一個很大的戶地是不是我們"},{"start":9263.482,"end":9288.621,"text":"安排個時間到現場來看事與基金會的問題因為中央這邊由族委來啟動我看這樣的速度會比較快不然我每次在執行也是每次都沒有下文那這對我們的族人在土城這個地方那也非常不公平因為我們三峽有三峽的山陰部落"},{"start":9289.842,"end":9305.863,"text":"他那邊還有過去我還爭取了一個他們的聚會所就在部落裡面那土城這一邊還是非常多的原住民那是不是執委未來我們要怎樣推動會速度比較快因為經費都有了嘛"},{"start":9308.967,"end":9322.547,"text":"經費有了我們都要有動作啊那你不然你現在在原鄉的地方已經原鄉的人口絕對不會多於我們都會區的人口所以很多我們"},{"start":9323.854,"end":9346.491,"text":"原住民都已經跑到我們都會區裡面那都會區你的融合那你紀委所你沒有設他們要去介於活動中心那就是非常的不方便啦是不是曾指委針對這一點我們要怎樣有具體的動作謝謝委員的指教我想比較快的就是說我們很快的時間就是這幾天我"},{"start":9349.013,"end":9361.538,"text":"我下去看我們下去看好看怎麼樣來解決現場我們看是因為如果他是公有地又是符合符合這樣的這個計劃的話我們趕快來協助新北市政府趕快來提報"},{"start":9363.746,"end":9386.984,"text":"到時候就由我們原住民委員會這邊來啟動然後新北市的人民祭我們都一起到現場來看那也要求新北市提供我們公有的土地未來我們要怎樣來做一個紀惠所相信這是對原住民大家都比較有感"},{"start":9388.305,"end":9417.545,"text":"阿斯他們也期待了好多年了不然你每年辦豐年祭啦辦什麼因為在那個生態公園裡面又沒辦法容納那麼多人這樣的話對我們原住民在我們土城這一邊也是有點不方便你三峽有三峽的部落就三陵部落阿你土城這一邊你要過去那一邊還是有交通上的問題這一點是不是拜託主委"},{"start":9417.865,"end":9419.427,"text":"有的,我們文化部的綜合規劃師副司長,我們有請嚴副司長"},{"start":9440.354,"end":9465.363,"text":"副市長是針對副市長針對我們的不管是原住民還是我們新住民還是我們台灣針對母語這個部分我看本席這邊的資料有一半以上的年輕人大家對母語的推動的並不盡理想那針對這一點要怎樣去推動讓我們的母語讓我們年輕人還"},{"start":9468.524,"end":9483.83,"text":"孩子跟了上一輩的語言這是要怎樣推動會比較快還是從學校來招手還是從小朋友還是從家庭有很多的面向針對這一點不然我看這個成績也不盡理想"},{"start":9488.126,"end":9505.495,"text":"是,謝謝委員的詮詢那這個部分的話就是目前由本部這邊我們有制定了國家語言發展法那目前也是協同在一從111年起我們也是協同了教育部、原民會、客委會"},{"start":9507.837,"end":9512.322,"text":"本部執行國家語言整體發展方案,5年計劃,預計投入321億元經費,希望能夠整合資源長期辦理國家語言的附贈發展"},{"start":9525.097,"end":9542.504,"text":"他的目標當然重點也是希望能夠提升年輕一代的一個語言能力然後落實語言的生活化然後營造一個友善的一個使用的環境希望就是讓大家能夠在日常生活當中能夠去提高語言的一個應用的機會然後讓這些語言的文化不要消失"},{"start":9543.103,"end":9563.341,"text":"沒有,針對這部分因為你們是寫者專家嘛要針對這部分去讓我們廣泛的我們年輕人他們願意來學習要用什麼誘因這一點就是你們要去考慮的部分好不好那再來本席大家"},{"start":9565.543,"end":9588.702,"text":"針對因為我們文化是在地的知識、記憶的保存那在我的選區有一個煤礦它這個煤礦是一個文化的記憶三峽的立峰煤礦三峽的立峰煤礦它就有歷史還有意識還有科學的文化的價值那本是"},{"start":9590.836,"end":9619.875,"text":"早期我們農業改為工業的時候煤礦是一個非常重要的一個產物那現在都已經沒有這個煤礦了但是它那個煤礦的地方還有那個地方出來又是我們的國產地那未來這個地方是不是可以把它保存作為一個文化的價值也是一個歷史的象徵"},{"start":9622.076,"end":9647.643,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為這邊有講到說是不是他是不是能夠去指定成一個有形或無形的文化資產因為文化資產他的一個指定他是需要有一定的程序的包括說可能需要提先向縣市政府提報然後再來去辦理一些文資的一些評估然後縣勘、審議會、審議委員的一些審議通過之後才能夠去做指定"},{"start":9648.203,"end":9671.668,"text":"那目前的話就是委員問到這個三峽利豐煤礦我們的查詢是目前他是還沒有文資的一個身份的不過就是我們的文化資產局他目前他在辦理這個煤業的一個文化路徑裡面他有把這一個三峽利豐的一個煤礦作為一個歷史的記憶點然後就是有在推動一些文化路徑"},{"start":9674.489,"end":9685.081,"text":"這個部分的話如果後續這個案子要提報的話他可以先向地方主管機關、新北市政府這邊來做提報然後由新北市政府這邊來做後續的一些評估跟審議"},{"start":9686.448,"end":9713.694,"text":"好的因為因為我讓你們瞭解一下早期土城這邊有一個海山煤礦那三峽有一個海伊煤礦啊這立峰煤礦也是他其中的一個那因為在民國70幾年都爆炸案後來整個煤礦都全部都封存了啊封存了那邊都是一些開發商開發掉了那唯一剩餘的只有這一個煤礦口啊這個可以我們的"},{"start":9714.454,"end":9732.07,"text":"不管是文化、不管是歷史、不管是教學,讓一些小朋友他們還能夠來記憶一個煤礦的地方。好,那謝謝,到時候我們再研究一下好不好?好,謝謝。好,非常謝謝吳昭蔚,謝謝你質詢。繼續,好,也謝謝。繼續我們請許新穎委員質詢。"},{"start":9743.717,"end":9746.838,"text":"謝謝主席本席請客委會古竹偉有請古竹偉竹偉你好竹偉你好竹偉你好竹偉你好竹竹、宋子仁、葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東漢嗎?葳東�"},{"start":9772.921,"end":9778.045,"text":"邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、"},{"start":9801.605,"end":9807.81,"text":"原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族文化"},{"start":9823.606,"end":9838.781,"text":"他們的客家用錢記錄,他們的客家人現在都希望在福祉他們的客家夠窮,他們的客家夠饒,所以希望在半天昨天他們客家負責任費的不要好到"},{"start":9839.561,"end":9845.105,"text":"原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、"},{"start":9860.894,"end":9861.334,"text":"今天又幾碼嗎?今年又幾碼會賣多少嗎?"},{"start":9891.143,"end":9893.425,"text":"目前,我們沒有一個數量,因為在外面有數千、有年餘的工作,所以我們沒有超過他們的奉獻。"},{"start":9905.518,"end":9906.658,"text":"若若若若若若若若若若若"},{"start":9936.805,"end":9937.686,"text":"我希望昨天本應報告,"},{"start":9959.002,"end":9967.927,"text":"原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人"},{"start":9978.992,"end":9986.137,"text":"好啊,我應該一家的故鄉住出版條,面拍板。對嘛,方舊說面拍板喔?面拍板。版條跟紀念,我們會說紀念。紀念跟保齡查釋跟問題,跟動動因,沒問題。"},{"start":10006.135,"end":10026.247,"text":"以該保齡茶室中毒事件,該動動因以為是板條出問題,但是不會因為板條的問題,撇去儲存食物的縫隙。所以,總主委,您認同嗎?總主委,我還是要請總主委回答,因為新住人就是板條。板條,說到板條,您是最多蜜農,您就是蜜農的板條。"},{"start":10035.852,"end":10051.61,"text":"你姓朱人嘛,又動入名的版條,你們在哪裡提訪?在哪裡向君嗎?就應該說,所在姓朱的姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱,姓朱"},{"start":10052.851,"end":10081.637,"text":"主委你也會在新部在11月版條好嗎?當然,我們在台北的世界主委會在新部會在11月版條我們新竹人的原住民他們最多在版條接了到現在我們副縣信牆兩百萬但是六十分之八萬停了我們公委就準備在"},{"start":10082.717,"end":10088.12,"text":"若盤,但若盤條最有名就新竹原卸,信不尋。所以,何謂本原政府,即即在結廳內才提前,做得嗎?若維園報告,這件事是我送到議會主席案中的事情,所以我正式有批復新竹原政府,然後告本新竹原政府去"},{"start":10110.454,"end":10113.156,"text":"基金會內委主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席"},{"start":10136.65,"end":10145.873,"text":"不過我的基金會下去以後,兩個的科目全部爆掉了,所以我應該很擔心,所以其實一百萬就很多了,因為超過了,超過我的整個預算。"},{"start":10157.916,"end":10161.898,"text":"你們會參加嗎?總統會參加嗎?會參加嗎?會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參加,會參"},{"start":10187.928,"end":10191.931,"text":"三、客家委員會對全國有特色的共產主義及其改變,不僅是共產主義的特色,也做到有動力的人更加了解客家人的動力特色。"},{"start":10215.581,"end":10219.404,"text":"客家負責服務也會計劃：有,有,那裡有一個叫做客家創商翻金洋厝計劃,那裡的計劃就是要分客家體系及到歷史的基因、翻金,還有圖書館：用補助的、會奉洩和用辦律：順暢：對,又順暢就是走在"},{"start":10243.106,"end":10244.887,"text":"新疆內地方政府、市縣政府、鄉鎮公所在新疆社基網內議會,為全國學習內審查,針對其內容作實質審查。」"},{"start":10261.691,"end":10266.716,"text":"新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益保障措施與新住民權益"},{"start":10286.295,"end":10292.418,"text":"有恰到特色的貢獻就在記區,好嗎?也要全體委員會、內政部委員會照顧,新住民的影響有多大?新住民是比你最高的營地,我拜託了。好,好,神夢,神夢妮嫣,神夢妮嫣。好,非常謝謝徐欣欣委員的質詢,謝謝谷主委。"},{"start":10309.298,"end":10327.773,"text":"在內政委員會很好吧聽到美麗的語言美麗的不同的文化的確是非常棒而且這樣的質詢跟對話真的實在是非常的和諧好謝謝讓我們聽到美麗其實我從小有很多客家的朋友還有同學對我在台中縣和平"},{"start":10330.501,"end":10354.372,"text":"對對對對對所以我們從小都大家和諧的非常好好繼續我們請丁學中丁學中委員質詢丁學中改書面對嗎好繼續張志倫張志倫張志倫委員也改書面然後黃建斌黃建斌黃建斌委員也改書面那麼我們內政委員會的委員都質詢完畢所以我們現在先處理臨時提案來我們請"},{"start":10358.894,"end":10381.3,"text":"這個提案說明有總共一案而已。謝謝。請宣讀。嘉義市客家族群的人口數約有24000人,主要分布在園林、宅、露寮一帶。嘉義市幅員雖小,客家族群數相較其他縣市也不算多,然中央意義是同仁,不應以族群人口數作為其政策推廣之主軸。資本席爭取後,去2023年客委會"},{"start":10381.9,"end":10403.433,"text":"安排客家大戲之嘉義式演出,為後街舞客委會主導之藝文活動在嘉義式演出,為了加強嘉義式客家文化之傳承,豐富嘉義式客家文化多元化,原請客委會在一個月內就如何加強嘉義式客家藝文活動推廣,提供書面報告與本院內政委員會及提案委員、提案人委員、網美會等三人。」宣讀完畢。"},{"start":10404.844,"end":10427.229,"text":"好應該沒有意見吧谷主委我覺得非常好好恭喜也謝謝美會委員的提案謝謝好我們就照案通過看不用休息我們今天中午不休息我們繼續開會我們現在再請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":10442.296,"end":10471.455,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請曾主委。有請曾主委。還有行政院主計總署的副主席長。行政院主計副主席長。謝謝。那個也請原民會的主計室主任。對,主計室主任。好。好,曾主委。那個馬沙魯。馬沙魯,我也好。我好。我好。"},{"start":10474.185,"end":10485.614,"text":"今天你的報告裡面第一章就呈現出從105年到今年度113年度預算成長在112年度突破100億然後這個113年度"},{"start":10498.048,"end":10525.142,"text":"總共從105到113年度總共增加了34.6億這個主計長我先問主計主任主計主任委員好知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎成長的項目大概有進法補償是這個項目是你知道這個好我來說"},{"start":10527.249,"end":10555.355,"text":"絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取我們看這個104年7月1號博物館法第6條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候特別要求增加第6條要設置原住民族"},{"start":10556.294,"end":10584.849,"text":"博物館所以開始籌編經費開始從一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費以往都是一些規劃的什麼那些都所以這是法律義務支出進法補償條例剛才這個主任有提到這是104年12月18號立法院三讀通過所以要感謝簡東明委員"},{"start":10586.141,"end":10610.196,"text":"更要感謝高金素美召委當時在草野協商的時候一樣是我們柯總召不同意臨門一角這個有一些故事說來話長所以105年1月6號公布施行就要開始編列相關的這些預算"},{"start":10611.511,"end":10639.02,"text":"當然這些預算不應該編列在原民會照理應該要編列在農業部現在農業部才是符合原住民族基本法第21條的規定但是我們還是編在原民會所以113年6月10日立法院表決三讀通過當然要編列這是法例一無之處"},{"start":10641.499,"end":10660.246,"text":"我們看這個原住民族語言發展法106年6月44號公布這裡面就特別要編列經費然後也要成立已發基金會也要編列經費然後呢29條政府每年應寬列預算"},{"start":10662.325,"end":10689.166,"text":"推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施。」所以就開始逐年的編列原住民族語言的經費這個都是法律義務支出原住民族教育法我們高精素美在教育文化委員會擔任召委設法也是困難重重的困難重重的"},{"start":10691.441,"end":10715.782,"text":"在沒有行政院版本的情況之下在教育文化委員會非常困難的當時也要謝謝我們今天剛來的鍾嘉賓當初他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案我沒有忘記你所以這個部分也是一樣法律義務之初我只是擠一條原住民族教育法第五條擠一條"},{"start":10718.632,"end":10741.645,"text":"原住民族的知識知識體系建構原住民族知識體系中長程計劃所以從109年開始編預算到113年度編的非常高的預算一億四千多萬元這是113年度"},{"start":10744.634,"end":10773.534,"text":"所以我們原住民族的權益尤其是預算就是要透過法律透過法律所以這個部分我們看原住民族基本法20條政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利我們去講土地為什麼要提還是要我們的土地啊被日本日記時代日本蛛絲會社"},{"start":10776.721,"end":10800.536,"text":"化為日本株式會社的土地。」日本敗戰之後回到日本他有沒有把這個土地帶回日本呢?沒有啊!帶不走嘛!所以臺堂中華民國政府成立了臺堂臺堂公司接收了這個土地我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給臺堂"},{"start":10805.843,"end":10817.712,"text":"繳到現在還在繳啊在楊仁甫的時代嫁過了一批本席當立委之後從107開始我就開始質詢協調從107、108不是只有一張啊一張還不夠到109、110、111、112不斷的質詢"},{"start":10837.642,"end":10858.016,"text":"協調台糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調主計總署光這個就三大章了這個協調才推動返還行政院才同意編列所以在113年度先編列了5000多萬114年度還要繼續編列"},{"start":10863.294,"end":10884.677,"text":"所以原住民族的預算的爭取很多都是要透過法例然後有的部分是要怎麼樣去透過我們原住民族的相關的這些轉型正義這個就是轉型正義之一我們看這個花東基金、花東低金"},{"start":10887.008,"end":10908.245,"text":"花東基金很重要的意義他說落實公務為主、基金為輔但是有了花東基金過去原民會本來有編列部落基會所經費有了花東基金之後全部推給花東基金事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔所以本席就開始協調國發會開始協調行政院開始協調組織總署所以"},{"start":10917.19,"end":10931.197,"text":"行政院就同意另訂一個花東地區原住民族部落集會所行動計劃就是要人民會增加人民會的移籍部落計劃的經費總共4億多的經費當然今年113年度編的比較少"},{"start":10941.268,"end":10966.807,"text":"而且還這個部分當然這個下次還有空的時候還可以再談這裡面是不足的地方好我們看這個都會區今天要談到都會區過去在都會區政府台南省政府的時代投入了很多如果我們現在所知道的屏東的文化會館"},{"start":10968.747,"end":10993.225,"text":"當初台灣省政府我在當副局長的時候徵起台灣省政府主計總處的經費大溪的桃園大溪不是有一個文化會館嗎李秀蓮當縣長的時候我去徵起主計總處的經費就畫了一個縣級的叫文化會館"},{"start":10995.408,"end":11019.54,"text":"鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館所以才會有這個從基隆、台北市、新北市到桃園、到台中、到屏東都有這個文化會館是這樣來的然後各鄉鎮有一些族群的有這個文物館唯一沒有促成的是哪裡呢?"},{"start":11020.92,"end":11049.67,"text":"亞美族的,我們經費有給啊,但是沒有促成,讓這個售來發展,所以這個經費族群主流化我就開始協調爭取,召開過多次的協調會,所以行政院終於核定族群主流化公共空間的計畫,所以在113年度開始有了這個經費,所以這個我是舉這些例子啊,要讓曾主委"},{"start":11050.768,"end":11080.003,"text":"要讓我們所有的同仁要繼續努力所以這次的禁法補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算全部都要額度外的預算這是基本因為它是法律義務支出啊沒有人要去擠壓現有的預算所以上次在這個我們韓院長在主持"},{"start":11081.672,"end":11102.158,"text":"協調的時候因為你出任到這個職務不怪你所以這個部分要往這方向去努力共同的努力當然有一些小額的我這邊就沒有寫我今天都是擠這個比較大額的所以有一些經費原民會該不該編?有的不該編啊主計長"},{"start":11108.86,"end":11127.459,"text":"像這個總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢編在人民會莫名其妙我當公務員30年了從來也沒有看過這種的對不對總統府還缺錢嗎"},{"start":11130.662,"end":11159.263,"text":"你要回應就是說我們跟原住民相關的預算現在原民會可以比較看出他的全貌那當然就是說我們這個法律義務的經費當然依法就是要編列但是我們只是擔心他會不會去排擠到其他就是說非法律義務的重大計畫那當然這個部分就是我們要努力只是我們沒辦法確保說一定要確保"},{"start":11160.063,"end":11188.299,"text":"主計長主計長你要確保為什麼要講那麼多除了講給曾主委聽之外就是講給你聽了從105年從105年剛才的報告裡面提的增加三十幾億都是法律義務支出有沒有去排擠原來的沒有啊沒有排擠原來的我講這麼多其實就是講給你聽的知道嗎"},{"start":11190.226,"end":11191.646,"text":"就是沒有排擠原來的是新增的"},{"start":11220.369,"end":11228.078,"text":"我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億我們只不過是就這個金髮補償來說二十幾億而已以上"},{"start":11235.103,"end":11249.308,"text":"二、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、財團法人原住民權益保障措施與精進方案。三、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、財團法人原住民權益保障措施與精進方案。四、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、財團法人原住民權益保障措施與精進方案。"},{"start":11269.225,"end":11281.803,"text":"主席、財團委員先進、列席政府監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請原民會曾主任委員老楚有請曾主委會有主席總處陳副主席長陳副主席長"},{"start":11286.735,"end":11315.572,"text":"委員好主委好雖然我們相識多年了過去也曾同事但是今天我們的位置呢我必須就政府的施政來質詢你那請問主委啊那你什麼時候到任的520520520到任你之前就已經知道要到圓明會來了嗎多久之前知道一個月還是半年前我在520之前一點點的時間一點點時間好啦來問陳副主席長一般我們政府的明年度的概算籌編從什麼時候開始"},{"start":11317.185,"end":11331.517,"text":"我們從3月開始就進行總體供需的估測然後我們5月17號就把額度匡列給各個部會已經5月17號就把額度匡列給各部會了請問主委5月17號你人在哪裡"},{"start":11333.587,"end":11356.518,"text":"五月十九還沒有來還沒到所以事實上呢主計總書在做明年度政府的總預算概算的匡列的時候你到任之後就只能接受這個匡列的預算額度來進行分配是不是這樣是好那請教一下那麼您來受我們卓議院長邀請來擔任這個職務我看到今天你是報告我們賴慶的總統他在原住民的政見那您"},{"start":11357.418,"end":11369.598,"text":"接到原住民政見這是總統開出的支票支票兌現嘛那您還是去盤點說要落實這些總統的政見在原住民方面你需要多少年用多少預算來執行有沒有開始盤點了"},{"start":11371.47,"end":11398.549,"text":"現在我們跟委員報告開始盤點這個需要很多的經費而且也不是一兩年就可以做的不是一年兩年就能完成的啦但是盤點證件的落實證件需要的預算這是您的義務嘛對不對那你也必須去盤點這每一年每一年假設未來四年你擔任主委要落實總統的證件這些需要用多少預算你要把它盤點出來是不是這樣那請問您有開始就明年度"},{"start":11399.209,"end":11405.835,"text":"在既有的框架之內,你開始覺得在這內容上可以去落實賴總統的哪些政見了嗎?"},{"start":11406.877,"end":11433.113,"text":"有哪些是在你被匡列的明年度而算可以執行的在明年125億的預算裡面我們就一些先獲得優先順位要排列優先的順序來做這個支援的分配當明年度我在請教你這個問題的時候我就要跟你問出那你匡列多少預算要落實賴總統哪些預算在第一年可以做到什麼程度你要有所準備接下來副主席長來請"},{"start":11434.614,"end":11461.15,"text":"我們來看一下下一頁這是目前您對憲法規定憲法第74條熟悉吧?是經常你們在主席總書都會告訴我們在朝野協商的時候立法院對於行政院所提預算不得為增加支出之提議是不是這樣?對,對審查預算不得為增加這當中在大法官的四字264當中他說為了防止政府預算膨脹致人民負擔增加你認為我們立法院是不是要為人民勘緊荷包?"},{"start":11462.981,"end":11484.371,"text":"立法院你認為我們本院是不是要幫人民勘請荷包?立法院有立法院的資權是的所以我們也不宜去增加人民的負擔所以當年在民國79年的時候曾經立法院通過決議要加發半個月公教人員的獎金但是大法官認為這是為增加支出之提議與憲法抵觸所以就無效了好往下看"},{"start":11485.091,"end":11502.816,"text":"那麼在4-391號在1995年當中曾經他不是去直接增加預算的額度他是挪用預算總而不願下去挪用科目請問副主席長這樣的方式有沒有抵觸或者大法官的解釋"},{"start":11504.931,"end":11531.643,"text":"就是在審查預算的時候如果有去做移動增減那當然就有違背391號的解釋那原因是什麼?是不是說這樣的話政策成敗無所歸屬責任政治難以確立?是不是這樣子?預算籌編權是行政權那行政權要對這樣的預算的執行後果負責如果由立法院不是刪減而是任意的挪條就無法確認責任政治你認為這是不是釋字391的解釋內容?"},{"start":11536.7,"end":11539.385,"text":"為了落實這些事情,我們是不是在1998年修了預算法?在2019年新增訂的財政機率法"},{"start":11547.956,"end":11573.521,"text":"在預算法91條當中,如果立法委員所提的預算案大幅增加稅出或減少稅率時應先徵詢行政院之意見並指明彌補資金之來源。這是預算法91條所明定。在2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法特別強調中央政府包括機關以及立法委員所提的法律案如果大幅增加政府的稅出或減少稅率時應先具體指明彌補資金之來源"},{"start":11575.081,"end":11593.452,"text":"請問你過去在足跡總署這麼久的任職期間有沒有經歷過在2019年之前曾經由立法院透過法律提案的方式跟財政局條第5條所違的有沒有這樣的一個情況發生透過立法案透過法律案的立法增加了政府的支出有沒有"},{"start":11594.124,"end":11613.875,"text":"透過立法增加政府的支出在2019年之前有對不對這也是為什麼我們2019年要開始訂定這個財政紀律法由立法院通過自我約束不得已法律案的方式立法來增加政府的支出除非你有具體指明彌補的資金來源是不是這樣子"},{"start":11615.674,"end":11638.007,"text":"好來我們要請鄭主委來鄭主委往下一頁其實啊過去我們過去談到一個禁法補償齁我記得那時候我們是同事嘛那時候在屏東縣我們是不是率先全國之先就推出了禁法補償是那時候你是支持嗎是你擔任什麼職務嚴明初處長那你的老闆是誰你的縣長是誰曹啟宏縣長那曹啟宏縣長有指示你要做這件事情嗎"},{"start":11638.976,"end":11661.127,"text":"有,我們一起來跟我們的族人來討論好,那所以你們有編列了預算嘛是送到屏東縣議會有沒有得到支持有有所以屏東縣議會有沒有三減沒有有沒有增加也沒有他尊重我們行政部門所提出的施政計畫全數通過好,這就是我們今天所要提的如果按照今天通過的在我們原民會本來2023年我們的進法補償是10.5億"},{"start":11664.068,"end":11685.296,"text":"但是到2024年因為把基金拿掉全部納入公預算變成21億如果到2025年為了執行立法案所通過的要52.15億請問主委你有時間去籌措裁員嗎52.15億當然他會要說你5月20號就任我們的預算概算在5月17號就已經匡列給原民會了你有辦法去增加嗎"},{"start":11686.496,"end":11710.636,"text":"我目前是有,是非常有難度啦。好來我現在主席長,我副主席長,請副主席長最後一頁,最後一頁,請下一頁,不是上一頁,來請問這樣的新增法律案大幅增加支出有沒有先問過你行政院的意見?有沒有被徵詢過?主席總書是沒有被,那你們有沒有找到裁員呢?目前找到了沒有?"},{"start":11711.676,"end":11736.718,"text":"目前不確定不確定好來最後結論因為主席站起來了我要跟他說的我們原民會的公務預算支出2024年是125.3億如果以進法補償來講佔了42%客委會的主委在那裡可能看到要掉眼淚他全年度預算40億進法補償是他的年度總預算130%如果是新住民的基金年度總預算的支出是4.2億我們這一次所立法增加的額度是他的1247百分比"},{"start":11739.09,"end":11766.112,"text":"好,主委,你現在責任很重大,為了要實現淨化補償,我們能夠增進我們原住民的照顧,還有增進他對環境的所付出的貢獻,希望你下次能夠提出怎麼樣在原民會,包括探選各項的收益能力,來增加原民會可以透過這樣的土地的維護,創造政府的收入,可以嗎?可以用來支應我們未來所要提高的原住民的淨化補助,可以嗎?盡量努力好,謝謝"},{"start":11767.313,"end":11795.487,"text":"好,非常謝謝鍾嘉斌的質詢,謝謝但是我再順便來說一下雖然這個曾主委是520之後就任的但是行政院在5月20號的時候有發文要求重新調整預算希望原民會在6月20號以前重新報院也就是說我們進法補償是可以在這段時間之內曾主委調整它"},{"start":11796.067,"end":11806.674,"text":"再提高他的預算。」這是第一點。第二點,經法補償是依法在立法院通過的。我們通過並沒有要求中央政府的預算增加。"},{"start":11807.335,"end":11835.313,"text":"而中央政府在今年度的預算增加增加了一成他總共是三兆兩千億三兆兩千億對於26億原住民的進法補償來講的話少之又少就看看政治的決定是賴清德總統跟我們的行政院長到底要不要依法行政的問題好不好我也補充的說明非常謝謝也請主委你要"},{"start":11836.053,"end":11856.505,"text":"思考一下這是你的責任也是你的工作怎麼樣去說服行政院長在我們主計總署裡面的年度預算裡面去挪動而不是要去排擠你現在原民會所提的預算原額謝謝繼續我們請林倩琦委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":11864.791,"end":11874.737,"text":"謝謝張偉還有我們立院同仁還有我們原民會還有各單位的行政長官那我現在有請曾主委有請曾主委曾主委您好您在5月29日但是在5月17號您就來拜會本席那本席大概在跟您的對話裡面給了您一項功課還記得吧"},{"start":11890.523,"end":11917.623,"text":"那您要不要現在把這個功課您看現在做得怎麼樣跟本席做一個回應主要是針對文化的部分就是部落跟原住民的文化來怎麼樣來做得更更好還有你也有問到這個博物館的問題那我們想也希望這個博物館的進度能夠儘快然後讓他趕快趕快的有進度之後未來我們持續的對外面對外國對我們的外面"},{"start":11918.544,"end":11922.372,"text":"盡量來交流原住民的博物館的交流。」大概是講到這個。"},{"start":11925.835,"end":11953.433,"text":"謝謝主委本席早上也看了一下幾位委員對您的質詢那我也感到不知道該怎麼樣繼續下去您連本席在5月17號跟您講了最重要的一點而且你還列在今天的業務報告裡面最前面的這個問題本席應該跟您說過在原民會所有的業務裡面這一點是本席最重視的事情"},{"start":11954.153,"end":11962.58,"text":"您剛才完全沒有提到,不知道是當時您是有聽進本席所講的話嗎?"},{"start":11966.633,"end":11985.142,"text":"您忘記了這個功課是什麼?您剛才講的是本席在內政委員會有提到的事那我相信您的幕僚做了很多的功課但是那一天您來拜會的時候本席跟您講到原民會裡面最重要的一件事情本席關心的您還記得嗎?已經給你提示喔"},{"start":11993.284,"end":12004.829,"text":"應該是有關這個是不是有關這個平埔族的事情我剛才已經很清楚的提示是有關於平埔族這個部分那請問您的功課做得如何剛才"},{"start":12006.281,"end":12026.148,"text":"從早上開會到現在中間休息了五分鐘那事實上在一些委員的質詢裡面本席也聽到了一些回應但是本席期待這五分鐘您有一些惡補如果沒有惡補的話我想答案會跟早上本席所聽到的一些委員對您的質詢是接近的還是您這邊有什麼要補充的嗎"},{"start":12027.248,"end":12048.997,"text":"我關於平埔族的這件事情我要補充的就是跟委員報告因為這個整個的這個當時憲法法庭的這個判決有一個很重要的也有一個很重要的那個主委時間很短所以您講的這個部分5月17號我也聽到了那本席其實早上有些委員很具體的跟您問過了"},{"start":12049.977,"end":12075.063,"text":"那所以假設您在推動平埔族群的這個議題上請問您知道明年會裡面的預算是多少嗎?一百二十五億有關於平埔族方面的業務推動我跟委員報告平埔族的這個身份的這個應該你所知道的就是應該要回答本席就是說平埔族相關的經費是多少在明年"},{"start":12076.089,"end":12099.349,"text":"如果說是他全部是就按我們所所預知應該是有98萬的話啦那光是只是教育的預算的話就增加到90億那只是教育的98萬到90億喔?什麼意思?就是如果只是來解決他的教育的問題的話就佔了未來就要到90億嗎?對就增加了90億啦明年嗎?明年就要變成到90億啊?如果"},{"start":12100.276,"end":12114.004,"text":"如果他來登記的或者是原住民的這個平埔族全部是98萬的話主委我想你有好多的未知我建議您先把早上幾位委員所提到有關於平埔族的這個區塊關於土地的問題、人數的問題"},{"start":12120.168,"end":12145.476,"text":"文化的問題、教育的問題各要多少經費先盤點一下然後你必須要知道明年你們究竟在貧苦族群這個部分支出支應多少然後未來這些問題上總共需要多少額度那您必須要去了解一下您自己本身對於這個負擔假設像你剛才講的我只是用你講的話我先不要講它是否正確"},{"start":12146.856,"end":12166.378,"text":"從你知道的明年九萬到未來要到九十八億,我不知道你有沒有口誤,這個貧苦族群的教育經費如果是從九萬九十八萬要到九十幾萬要到九十八億,請問你現在原民會的預算如何承載這樣的經費?"},{"start":12168.871,"end":12193.622,"text":"我不知道你有沒有口誤喔我先講我不知道你有沒有口誤好那早上這些委員問你的這幾個問題你對經費都沒有概念如果有增加到98萬的人口數那光是只是是在講98萬的人口數嘛不是98萬的教育經費嘛變到98億嘛如果是98萬的人口數光是教育的經費我們估算就要差不多要90億了啦"},{"start":12196.231,"end":12215.787,"text":"那請問光是這一點你如何承載跟如何處理?因為超過我們的預算很多而且完全會沒有辦法做現在目前原民會在做的事情當然我們要請求業裡面來協助來幫忙現在對於如何協助跟幫忙有概念了嗎?"},{"start":12216.508,"end":12243.726,"text":"就是請求在預算在編列的時候額度外的需求我們要提出來啊進法補償您知道應該尋相關的方式來做處理嗎額度外的預算我們也是要請求院裡面來協助啊好的那您現在終於有聽清楚了所以應該您可以試圖跟努力的請求院裡面的協助那今天主席處對不起額度外行政院然後"},{"start":12245.034,"end":12265.817,"text":"原住民會額度外的預算。」這點是本席非常關心的但是平樸族的功課是本席在您來拜會的時候講的很重要的一件事情而且是您今天在業務報告裡面列的第一項那除了您當天講的憲法相關的內容本席沒有看到相對的具體做法"},{"start":12266.657,"end":12283.363,"text":"本席希望你這個部分的功課能夠更具體早上許多委員的指教已經都幫你把答案基本上都匡列好了未來的走向所以你依照這個走向好好的去做我相信應該會有一些解答第二點我可不可以請主席復"},{"start":12285.384,"end":12289.007,"text":"我們在113年就是撥21億左右給他透過他的原民基金來執行"},{"start":12315.285,"end":12340.893,"text":"所以你用到我們原住民的原住民族發展基金嗎?不是,全部有公務預算撥只是透過基金來發放公務預算撥?請問我們現在的那個綜合發展基金剩多少錢?主委我來跟委員報告一個總數就好了,因為主席站起來了我們現在基金的這個淨值大概45億那可動用的資金大概14億"},{"start":12343.256,"end":12356.403,"text":"請問一下2012年當時基金是多少錢2012年當時的這個可動用的資金大概是五十幾億可動用的資金五十幾億比現在現有的資金還要多來減少"},{"start":12358.857,"end":12361.958,"text":"可動用的資金是…現在可動用的資金是14億本席在當時在新北市"},{"start":12385.241,"end":12406.039,"text":"對,當時這個是100億,原來是100億的這樣的一個額頭所以原本是100億,現在剩下45億請問原住民族綜合發展基金這幾年來是怎麼花的?先給本席一個報告,也給所有的原住民委員一個報告好,我會把我們所有的這個預算、收入跟支出做一個報告給委員"},{"start":12409.081,"end":12426.452,"text":"前部族的部分請趕快補足,那部族的部分被挪到哪裡去了,要說明清楚。謝謝,非常謝謝林倩琦委員的諮詢。繼續我們請林一錦委員來諮詢。很少在這看到你,歡迎,我們在教育文化經常見到,謝謝趙偉。謝謝主席,有請原民會曾竹偉,還有客委會古竹偉。"},{"start":12438.854,"end":12451.531,"text":"主委好我先請教曾主委本席在擔任台南縣議員跟台南市議員的期間都非常的致力跟關心於希拉雅族身份認定的議題那當時擔任台南縣議員"},{"start":12453.914,"end":12467.941,"text":"市長賴清德也積極為族人奔走地狀提行政訴訟。多年過去,憲法法庭也作出111憲判制第17號判決,根據判決的意旨,"},{"start":12471.223,"end":12493.671,"text":"有關的機關應於判決宣誓之日起三年內。」我們叫原住民的認定要件要予以檢討並修法重點是修法那本席要強調是說血緣是與生俱來的身份認同這件事情也有關於文化建構跟傳承那但是歷史上的錯誤或者是國家的不積極作為"},{"start":12495.251,"end":12509.852,"text":"使得留著原住民血液的人沒有辦法在法律上被認定身份。」我覺得這件事情是非常遺憾的。好,那去年相關行政訴訟中,行政法院以主管機關未完成修法,"},{"start":12510.453,"end":12536.138,"text":"而駁回希拉雅族人身份住進的申請。」那我想雖然判決與法是沒有違物可是希拉雅族是先於憲法存在的那怎麼能任憑憲法下不完備的法律就使他們喪失在民主國家應有的身份認定與權利所以我想既然憲法法庭已經兩年前作出判決那也明確宣示了原住民"},{"start":12536.678,"end":12555.032,"text":"身份權是我國人民的概括基本權之一。」根據本辦向原民會進一步了解的是說目前要採取擬據評普專法的方式來回應這個憲法判決以專法的形式我想也更符合評普族群的需求"},{"start":12556.733,"end":12576.412,"text":"保障平埔族人的權益,那我想現行的原住民族權益也有所區隔,那同時我想採取雙軌的模式來逐步完善這個平埔族群的這個權益的這種體系,我想也可以有效來控制國家的預算,那負擔他那個"},{"start":12577.543,"end":12606.465,"text":"國家預算的負擔也增長它的幅度,也確保資源配置的合理性。」請問主委你覺得我這樣說正確嗎?是!是!很正確!謝謝你!賴總統去年主持原轉會議時也曾表示說要依據各原住民族的客觀需求國家資源分配為原則來回復平埔族群獲得民族身份的相關權利所以我想原住民"},{"start":12607.125,"end":12625.793,"text":"原民會的雙軌制規劃考量到明年10月我們就修法的期限就要到了那原民會是不是可以有什麼樣的規劃你目前有什麼樣的規劃或者說你們在三個月內給本辦一個詳細的立專法的方向的這個規劃具體規劃"},{"start":12628.706,"end":12645.338,"text":"會,那我們目前在做的是先把這個族群認定先把認定好還有身份也把它認定好那至於立專法這個部分我們會我們現在已經在內部內部做討論也會跟希臘雅族的這個族人做討論讓他整理出來之後會跟委員做報告"},{"start":12651.864,"end":12664.8,"text":"三個月內是不是給本辦一個你立專法的方向包括你身份認定的部分的一些規劃的具體的規劃好不好?好,謝謝那你請回,我請教谷主委"},{"start":12668.368,"end":12682.627,"text":"所以我想過去你任職台南市客委會主委積極破壞很多的客家文化的相關的活動那並透過走讀、騎腳踏車、巡迴的方式來增加能見度這一點本席真的要給你很大大的肯定"},{"start":12683.368,"end":12710.594,"text":"然後我想今天來接這個客委會主委是悠悠關於全國這個客家事務然後我想在上週五有一個客語社區營造計畫交流的觀謀會中有一個分享者他提及說客家人正面臨了數位失落的困境也就是說在數位時代中並沒有一套可以打出客語打字的官方打字系統那它導致"},{"start":12711.474,"end":12736.134,"text":"很積極想要推廣這個客家文化的這些朋友們他在輸入上都還得用注音打出客語的漢字甚至還有沒有辦法顯字的這個問題那我想說文化跟語言其實如果要傳播文字是一個很重要的載體所以如果能增加客家文化的這個能見度我想語言的數位使用就顯得相當的重要那相比於台語"},{"start":12739.176,"end":12758.812,"text":"有那個帕代義手機的這個輸入法那客語沒有辦法透過手機拼音來打字目前是沒有那據瞭解我想客委會已經有推出電腦跟平板的客語輸入法可是沒有相對應的這個輸入手機來使用那這部分不曉得你有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":12759.793,"end":12762.436,"text":"同委員報告：合意非目前意見題的進行：所謂的作得用、合法：也在評論的方式：等於非：來作的問題：來解決的問題：故所謂參與到9月底："},{"start":12776.03,"end":12789.075,"text":"都可以用數幾頁來做合法評驗和合法的信任法,做得來,9頁,9頁大就可以完成了,所以以後我們都可以用這數幾頁來做信任法,就大家看到我講法,我講法只要信任"},{"start":12797.918,"end":12799.019,"text":"大約多久?今年九月"},{"start":12827.958,"end":12833.966,"text":"有客語語音還有拼音用拼音也做到兩種方式都做到"},{"start":12839.347,"end":12858.272,"text":"林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在林柱英、林柱英、林柱英委員不在楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在林思敏、林思敏、林思敏委員不在陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在何欣存、何欣存、何欣存委員不在"},{"start":12859.072,"end":12872.402,"text":"吳立華、吳立華、吳立華委員不在、莊瑞雄、張瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在、邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在、謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳委員不在、盧憲一、盧憲一、盧憲一委員不在、陳穎委員質詢。"},{"start":12888.184,"end":12894.566,"text":"對應該現場要看一下沒有委員在的話可能助理要趕快先回先告知您好不過沒關係我會給你時間沒關係我們現在請陳英委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":12907.593,"end":12917.185,"text":"謝謝主席我看那個副主委今天都還沒有被叫上來我就請那個杜章副主委我們有請杜章副主委還有宋處長謝謝委員好"},{"start":12924.612,"end":12947.16,"text":"大家好我想這個希望推動有價值的這個原住民保留地可以在銀行視為有利的擔保品是我從上一屆就一直非常大力推動的事情那我在這個大院裡面總共總質詢有問過三次那我辦公室呢在這個會期呢就開過至少三次的協調會"},{"start":12948.76,"end":12965.966,"text":"那在3月9號協調會當時的決議有希望原民會在一個月內修正貸款的要點但是呢到4月9號一個月時間到了並沒有完成"},{"start":12967.026,"end":12992.272,"text":"如果說這當中因為時間我可以理解就是說接近這個520交接的時間那你們如果要等新內閣上任再做確定這個理由我是可以接受的啦但是3月9號一個月完成的話呢4月初早就該處理好而且整個進度就會去耽誤到因為"},{"start":12993.331,"end":13007.769,"text":"我的後來我去了解原因是你們這個處裡面就是有人在從中作梗甚至顛倒是非我沒有誇大因為這個回去傳遞的訊息真的是太誇張了然後"},{"start":13008.61,"end":13025.524,"text":"用這個漢人的思維還有以及就是說原先大家就是說他們他自己既有的那種刻板印象去扭曲本席原來這個利益良善的提案那因為這件事情是我們所有原住民就是因應期盼希望可以被解決的問題"},{"start":13027.225,"end":13048.49,"text":"那現在已經遲了兩個月又三天了我比較想要了解說你們處理的同仁是不是大家都理解了這個要被解決的問題那目前是不是還有從中有人在從中阻攔那目前到底這個進度到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":13051.711,"end":13067.496,"text":"公園報告 委員講那個有沒有從中阻攔這個我不是很清楚可是處長比較清楚沒有關係 那我的意思說 那現在整個進度來講這個所謂原住民保護地的這個貸款信用保證的作業要點草案我們事實上已經草擬出來大概40幾條 40幾點了"},{"start":13070.27,"end":13096.757,"text":"那也主條的在會裡面已經有去討論了那我們是大概在近期可能我們會在一個月內再邀請相關的部會再來看這個草案的條文是不是可行然後有沒有什麼問題需要協調的那我想到時候還是要請委員來指導看看這個內容的部分有沒有是真正可以保障到原住民的權益我想我們是朝這個方向努力"},{"start":13097.202,"end":13113.612,"text":"所以就目前來看你們有沒有信心去說服所有的相關部會那目前的狀況就是還有哪邊誰比較有問題原則上我們這個條文我想在實體上它很多都是作業的這個要點的程序"},{"start":13114.352,"end":13140.814,"text":"那在各部會來講我想因為我們之前以前曾經有過這個這個信貸的這樣的一個注意要點的一個潛力我們有有針對那個部分來做研修另外就是在增加了目前我們所看到的一些狀況那當然在信保的部分我們的保證很重要啦如果可以的話那我們可以盡可能的讓其他部會能夠同意我們的一些看法跟做法我想在協調上應該問題不大以上"},{"start":13142.928,"end":13144.936,"text":"我想這個那處罩有什麼要補充嗎?"},{"start":13147.638,"end":13173.424,"text":"各位委員報告那這個時間最主要的一個落差是我們這次研擬出來的這個要點是新修訂的這個要點也就是不是按照過去所有過去的那個信用保證的那個要點裡面去做修正我想因為整個立場或整個要協助的這個標的是不一樣的所以呢我們這次重新研擬要研擬一個新修訂的一個貸款的這個要點"},{"start":13175.373,"end":13199.556,"text":"最主要的拖延的時間是在這裡我想我們會更謹慎的來處理我想相關的部會當然有財政部、金管會跟銀行當然我們都知道其實這幾個單位有時候很不好溝通所以我希望如果中間有什麼狀況再隨時讓我們知道我們可以再來協助大家一起來協調然後趕快把這個原保地可以"},{"start":13200.537,"end":13223.747,"text":"有價值原保地可以受信貸款這件事情我們把它處理好這樣可以造福到我們很多的族人那甚至在未來不管是創業或者在他們自身的這個要購屋或者房屋修繕等等可以或者一些產業的發展推動都可以有很好的結果好謝謝那請謝謝委員指教是好請你們回座那我請那個羅處長"},{"start":13226.503,"end":13247.703,"text":"主委我就不請你了但是我請你坐在位子上好好聽一下這個概念因為這一題是我剛剛臨時加進來的不是故意的是因為我很認真聽你們的報告那當然在這個今天的這個賴總統的這個原住民政見的這個報告裡面第7頁"},{"start":13249.715,"end":13276.156,"text":"有特別提到這個強化原住民族健康服務這個部分那我想先請教你一個問題你認為因為他的目標有提到就是改善並提升族人平均餘命這件事情我想請教處長你認為提升族人的平均餘命比較重要還是縮短原住民和其他族群的差距平均餘命的差距比較重要"},{"start":13277.149,"end":13300.96,"text":"兩個都重要但是尤其是那個差距的部分其實我們也是很重視你回答的非常好那因為我快速的講一下因為同樣的事情我也很鄭重的去提醒了這個衛福部因為在這個105年到109年間呢這五年我先給大家一個概念好了因為我怕這個有小數點的數據大家會亂掉"},{"start":13304.241,"end":13332.79,"text":"假設這個原住民的平均餘命跟這個其他族群是差距10歲如果原住民增加平均餘命增加兩歲的時候那其他族群或者是全國我們講全國全體國人的平均餘命也增加兩歲的時候那我們大家平均餘命都提升了但是我們平均餘命的差距還是差人家10歲嘛對不對那我們長期以來努力的都是在縮短我們跟其他族群的平均餘命啊"},{"start":13333.61,"end":13358.157,"text":"那現在來再換個角度一樣原住民平均移民提升兩歲但是全體國人其他族群的平均移民減少兩歲那我們中間的差距本來十歲就變成六歲那你可以說我們努力到我們的平均移民跟人家差六歲嗎你不能這樣看嘛所以我今天要導正的"},{"start":13359.357,"end":13380.209,"text":"這個觀念就是在這裡那我用一個實際的我們看一下這個我們這個表格就是109年哦105到109年這五年當中原住民的平均餘命提高1.74歲那大家都說你們有發新聞稿比如說因為文件站啦什麼我們就這幾年大家很開心啦我們長者平均餘命提高了將近兩歲"},{"start":13382.351,"end":13395.365,"text":"但是我們要看全體國人的平均移民也是提高1.32歲所以這五年當中原住民的平均移民提高的情況不是很單純的就是提高兩歲這個你們有聽懂"},{"start":13399.529,"end":13422.824,"text":"另外我們再看到這個下一個表如果我們講到原住民跟全體國人的差距政府公布的資訊是109年到111年當中這三年呢我們的這個差距縮短了1.47歲然後連這個去年的原建法三讀通過的時候呢你們跟衛福部也是拿這樣的資料給行政院讓他們去發新聞稿"},{"start":13424.645,"end":13438.543,"text":"可是實際上是這麼單純嗎?好像也不是這樣啊我們看這個表各年齡層在這三年當中平均與移民的差距都縮小了1.5歲那可是再看到下面的一排紅字的數據"},{"start":13440.605,"end":13460.67,"text":"這三年全體國人的平均餘命都下降了大約1.5歲所以這三年間縮短差距的背後是全體國人的平均餘命都下降了而不是原住民的平均餘命上升更何況其實這三年原住民的平均餘命其實是稍微減少了0.01歲"},{"start":13463.13,"end":13486.145,"text":"那去分析這個成果跟目前情況的時候不是單單用一個統計數據就可以作為依據這是我給你們的提醒那這個是非常重要的提醒因為這個牽扯到原住民健康的實際狀況的調查然後也更深深影響到未來健康政策的一個制定所以我在這邊特別"},{"start":13488.707,"end":13502.803,"text":"請羅處長出來導正這個觀念,讓大家了解平均餘命背後代表的意義,不是我們單看原住民平均餘命增加多少,就這樣子那麼簡單。」是,委員說認證的確,有聽明白。好,謝謝。好,謝謝陳茵委員的質詢。"},{"start":13511.829,"end":13524.405,"text":"今天登記的委員其實諮詢都已經結束了但是吳麗華委員跟盧憲英委員因為是原住民族的委員所以我特別給他們一點時間也在這裡"},{"start":13526.547,"end":13554.05,"text":"發言一下,我們就3分鐘好不好,這樣子對於前面登記準時到的委員比較公平啦,照理說是不可以讓你們發言,但是我今天做召委我就做這樣一個才是好不好,我們現在請吳麗華委員來質詢,謝謝因為下次希望助理能夠監看一下好不好,這樣子"},{"start":13556.452,"end":13563.399,"text":"因為現場如果委員不在的話其實就要注意他們可能不會發言或者是可以打電話到我們的內政委員會請議事人員回應"},{"start":13569.432,"end":13591.803,"text":"你如果準時到的話我都今天都講滿但是因為您登記的時間已經過期了我也念完了你的名字但是因為是原住民的委員的身份所以我准許你們可以在這個登記完之後再發言好不好不好意思因為我必須要這樣講不然的話以後其他的委員在這邊的話稍微我就很難處理好嗎謝謝好"},{"start":13594.344,"end":13609.078,"text":"不是差10秒的問題而是對好好不好謝謝請吳麗華委員質詢謝謝好謝謝主席有請那個原民會的主委跟副主委有請曾主委還有我們的杜璋副主委"},{"start":13616.289,"end":13631.147,"text":"主委、副主委兩位過去都是事務官那現在兩位都是政務任用所以我相信肩膀扛了很多的責任那過去沒有做到的我希望說兩位可以在你們的"},{"start":13632.428,"end":13648.604,"text":"這個任內能夠把一些應該做沒有做到的趕快做好所以我今天其實質詢要就一些我過去關心的還沒有完成的希望呢兩位可以加把勁那第一個部分我就是想要提到我其實在111年的1月呢我有去召開一個原住民傳統建築的協調會什麼原因"},{"start":13655.231,"end":13674.97,"text":"以現在文資局他補助很多錢去處理布農族、排灣族、盧凱族的石板屋但是截至目前為止即便是40年前民國73年的建築法就已經放寬我們的偏鄉建築法規但是仍舊沒有任何一間石板屋它具有使用執照"},{"start":13675.771,"end":13684.915,"text":"大部分都是臨時頂多是臨時的使用執照所以這邊我曾經在111年的1月我有找中華民國建築師公會跟原民會來召開一個協調會當時的結論是說中華民國建築師公會他們說只要有建築圖說他們才能夠做認證所以不是法規的問題而是從來沒有一個建築圖說那原民會呢我們就希望你們要去研究"},{"start":13703.644,"end":13727.29,"text":"要去編這個經費來處理結果呢已經經過了兩年多到目前為止我真的不知道你們做了沒有這是第一個問題那我就不答了因為時間不夠那第二個部分我曾經在112年的7月我有針對原鄉的失能老人編員戶他們要去入住住宿型機構的時候很辛苦很困難所以當時我是希望說"},{"start":13728.15,"end":13747.595,"text":"衛福部他已經把補助的費用入住住宿型機構從五千元調高到一萬元那我有請原民會做兩件事第一個先趕快去就未產生經濟效益的原住民保留地認定標準做出來衛福部說他們願意來尊重原民會的認定來放寬那第二個"},{"start":13748.055,"end":13763.332,"text":"我也希望原民會也能夠編一些錢跟未婦不一樣去幫忙這些沒有能力的去住宿型機構的這個老人家這個是有感的政策我希望已經過了一年多希望可以給我一個回覆那第三個問題就是說我也曾經開過一個協調會就是"},{"start":13767.136,"end":13782.807,"text":"我們有很多的公有土地他增化邊緣保地的時候他沒有辦法原因是出在說他沒有劃入55個原住民的鄉鎮別以至於呢他沒有辦法去取得土地那這件事情其實在全國影響很大簡單的來講像屏東有一個來義"},{"start":13786.71,"end":13812.984,"text":"又或者高雄的六規、建三、二集團等等,非常的多。」那他們的這個部分我們就是一直希望你們趕快去修公有土地增化邊緣保地審查作業要點的規範那這個部分呢我也希望趕快給我一個回覆那再來就是我也希望你們就是針對我曾經說過的原鄉大部分的集會所都是民國83年以前的寄存違建第一個他"},{"start":13814.425,"end":13835.72,"text":"師兄第二、他要修的時候因為沒有使用執照沒有辦法取得政府的補助第三、他要拆除費用也很龐大沒有自由裁員所以我一直說原民會應該要提出一個專案來統一處理這一些那我也希望說趕快給我一個報告那第六個就是我過去一直講我們原民會有一個專門人才的獎勵要點"},{"start":13838.041,"end":13845.069,"text":"大部分的家長都一直跟我抱怨說為什麼只有補助那些碩士博士專利的還有體育傑出人才難道舞蹈都不用嗎我們不是很重視文化音樂嗎我講了很久還沒有像這個排灣女孩打敗41國"},{"start":13854.099,"end":13883.118,"text":"他得到全世界民族舞蹈冠軍結果他家長說有沒有獎金沒有我也希望這個部分要趕快修那第七個就是我們的原教法有規定要去做一個各級各類學校他們的棋老還有我們的專長人士他們可以到學校做教學支援人員但是呢這個部分我已經看到了今年113年終於已經有了第一批但是到底他的薪水怎麼算那他的工作的一個媒合他要怎麼樣去學校"},{"start":13884.52,"end":13901.16,"text":"以上我想的這些因為時間的關係通通需要編列經費那麼我們8月預計要把預算書送到立法院9月要做細部計畫的說明表時間很緊迫我不知道如果你們今年再不編就是表示又要呼嚨我一年"},{"start":13902.101,"end":13917.574,"text":"所以我想這個部分一定要來處理而且這些我講的都跟賴總統的政見有關係那很多的部分我下一次的質詢我再來就這樣也可以提出面好 謝謝主席謝謝主委、副主委謝謝曾主委現在繼續請盧憲英委員也是一樣3分鐘謝謝謝謝趙偉給我3分鐘的時間我邀請我們的主委邀請曾主委"},{"start":13937.114,"end":13964.35,"text":"主委吳安很高興我們這6月10號的事我們都通過了那個我們期待已久的那其實我們剛也都有聽到曾天才委員跟我們的召委都有提到所以我大概就不再說應該你會努力完成吧謝謝對因為如果按照你的邏輯你想看看如果按照我們的人口因為我們包山包海的原民會如果100多億的這個預算你覺得應該要增加到多少是比較合理"},{"start":13966.533,"end":13982.822,"text":"我想他明年度籌編目前的預算是125億了那當然我們希望...如果你再跟主流社會再講說我原民會這樣一個單位應該要多少億才合理這個因為我們後續還有很多...有沒有算過?你有沒有在稅前算過?拿計算機算過?"},{"start":13984.469,"end":14002.101,"text":"當然這125億是不夠啦,我們想說還未來還要面對…我算給你看齁,如果說好,如果我們按照人口比例去年是2.8兆的話,我們大概700億嘛你扣掉國防、扣掉外交、扣掉海巡署這些不是我們的單位的話,我們應該如果折半應該還有300多億啊"},{"start":14003.695,"end":14021.941,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實原住民族的預算不是只有在研究會,其他的部會也有原住民族的預算我們希望是這個層級,如果他再給我們打折再打折也可以兩三百億,是不是這樣子?那我們基本上應該在700億左右"},{"start":14024.392,"end":14041.443,"text":"我今天要講的就是我們課後的老師的問題因為現在都是國小那希望能夠陣列到國中那現在不是之前我們的招委已經把它已經到113年就是追加對不對那我是希望是它是一個對勞基法的一個原則"},{"start":14043.225,"end":14056.244,"text":"基本薪資、老計劃為什麼因為我們現在很多大學畢業的原住民學生他們對教育有熱忱他們回鄉服務的時候他們希望能夠投入這一塊希望你可以替他們想辦法可以嗎主委可以老計劃的部分已經解決了"},{"start":14058.926,"end":14081.201,"text":"接下來還有我們的很多的我們的原住民文化行政這個部分因為我們建了很多的文物館我現在看是156個各鄉鄉民族文物館那我們其實沒有招考這樣的一個類科其實我們應該要主點編列這些名額在裡面好不好有沒有這樣的規劃目前"},{"start":14081.946,"end":14105.567,"text":"目前這個類科、文化類科是還沒有開設這樣的一個課程但是我們現在禁用的這些人也就是雖然沒有公務員的資格但是他們我們先禁用他們未來在原住民族的博物館也能公共聚會是因為他們沒有這樣的相對的一個專業知識或是說訓練可能在推展上面可能就會有一定的落差不是嗎"},{"start":14107.625,"end":14131.684,"text":"那而且我們接下來還有國家級的博物館這些類科你不是應該早點去規劃嗎好不好有這個類科確實人數不夠不好意思最後一個問題因為時間的關係我們的社會安全網到明年就是第二期就結束了還有第三期社會安全網那現在是2.8億的投入那我們這個人力的部分你有沒有想該怎麼辦"},{"start":14134.116,"end":14155.21,"text":"原來的人我們優先來留任那還有就是說可以多了33名的這個社工督導也希望是從裡面來生然後就會還可以再希望你能夠著手進行這個我們都會原住民這個部分尤其是社工的問題非常的需要很多的人力跟財力去投入可以嗎是謝謝"},{"start":14158.471,"end":14174.943,"text":"主委的確是要思考一下這個原住民的博物館要出來了在高雄你們的人員真的實在是要配套的進行好不好這個我也會到時候請一個專案要請你們說明一下謝謝"},{"start":14177.285,"end":14202.503,"text":"登記發言的委員除不在場者之外,其餘的都已經發言完畢,詢答結束。委員黃建斌、張志倫、丁學中、高精素梅、莊瑞雄所提的書面質詢列入記錄、刊登公報。書面質詢還有未及答覆的部分,請相關單位在一週之內以書面答覆,並複製本會。本日的議程處理完畢,我們現在散會,大家辛苦了,謝謝。"},{"start":14208.735,"end":14227.012,"text":"二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民權益保障措施與精進方案。三、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民權益保障措施與精進方案。"},{"start":14231.256,"end":14247.742,"text":"二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人原住民基金會、財團法人"}]}},{"id":"16007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16007","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd507799957011912f67ad8ab126936a2d19186e52af1244329ec2b7c5f90c830d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-13T08:31:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T13:06:00+08:00","duration":16465,"影片長度":"04:34:25","委員發言時間":"08:31:35 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陳家品署長"},{"start":1955.404,"end":1980.893,"text":"高工局彭煥如副局長台鐵公司杜威董事長港屋公司李賢利董事長郵政公司吳宏某董事長桃園機場公司楊維福董事長"},{"start":1983.186,"end":2007.861,"text":"高鐵公司江耀宗董事長華航謝士謙董事長陽明海運鄭貞茂董事長中華電信郭水益董事長警政署行警局邱文亮局長"},{"start":2013.884,"end":2038.779,"text":"臺北市捷運工程局總工程師陳道信新北市捷運局鄭志明副局長桃園市捷運工程局曾榮英副局長臺中市公共運輸及捷運工程處張應當處長台南市捷運工程處呂蔣惠處長"},{"start":2043.812,"end":2059.152,"text":"高雄市政府捷運工程局王彥清總工程師補充介紹黃建豪委員本次會議進行交通部業務報告現在請李部長報告"},{"start":2085.719,"end":2090.104,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早安"},{"start":2091.451,"end":2114.702,"text":"今天應邀列席貴委員會,就交通部主管各項業務提出報告,親鳴各位委員的指教,僅表示感謝之意。交通業務涵蓋運輸、觀光、航空、港務、氣象以及郵政等領域,與民眾的生活息息相關,本人就任後首要目標、任務就是提供安全、便捷、"},{"start":2115.442,"end":2116.923,"text":"以下僅就施政重點提出簡要的報告"},{"start":2139.591,"end":2156.607,"text":"首先是針對加速道路優化軟硬體兼施那麼針對包括省道的路口的盤點改善以及永續提升人行安全計畫這個是跟內政部共同來推動以及整體道路的規劃指引"},{"start":2157.768,"end":2182.229,"text":"那預計要完成全國包括公路29000多處的路口的這個盤點與改善那市區的道路要來完成3467處這個路口的這個人行安全設施的改善以及455處的校園周邊的道路改善那整體道路規劃指引也會完成道路的這個安全交通號誌標線標誌的這個設置參考指引"},{"start":2187.473,"end":2192.594,"text":"駕駛安全提升升級,包括對於機車駕駛安全訓練講習,還有全國首座監理交通安全教育園區開幕使用。"},{"start":2201.957,"end":2210.645,"text":"以及定期公布全國各縣市道安的績效還有智慧交通科技的運用那希望能夠在2030年減少30%行人減少50%的死亡率的這個目標來邁進"},{"start":2219.103,"end":2226.146,"text":"觀光新品牌引客千萬來臺短期成立跨部會觀光推動平臺增設許多海外據點擴充18個海外辦事處、7個服務處加速擴大吸引國際觀光客的方案"},{"start":2240.392,"end":2262.521,"text":"國內的部分環島亮點捲動國旅那跟針對國旅的部分我們推動包括100個觀光亮點以及觀光圈的這個推動那另外也推動這個台灣PASS包括高鐵板台鐵板來推動那也串聯鐵道步道鐵馬道來推動國旅跟國際的觀光那希望能夠在"},{"start":2265.004,"end":2276.584,"text":"這個117年再達到來台旅客可以達到1400萬人次那麼國內國旅的部分可以到2.2億人次那整個觀光的收入可以達到1兆台幣"},{"start":2279.107,"end":2293.333,"text":"提升公共運輸使用率優惠方案健全發展、汰換行動支付驗票機組、多元智慧型後車設施以及運具電動化在今年年底針對非通勤短期提出新型TPAS方案"},{"start":2304.758,"end":2321.95,"text":"那另外這個公路的客運車輛的這個行動支付的驗票機我們希望在在兩年內完成50%也就是5800多輛的這樣的一個汰換那多元的智慧智慧型的後車我們也輔導10個縣市來推動建制運動運具的電動化我們希望在2030年達到市區公車全面電動化"},{"start":2330.296,"end":2344.946,"text":"那另外偏鄉公共運輸裡面提升偏鄉的交通平權那也針對偏鄉客貨供載服務幸福巴士轉型服務鄉鄉有公車那希望在客貨服務的部分我們在"},{"start":2346.887,"end":2369.961,"text":"這個2026年能夠完成10處偏鄉的這個福島那另外40處這個幸福巴士的轉型服務那也增加20條幸福巴士的路線那希望能夠在這個117年能夠達成偏鄉的公共運輸能夠涵蓋率達到百分之百的這個目標那公車的電動化比例到達百分之八十以上"},{"start":2372.561,"end":2389.579,"text":"幸福公路強化高快速公路網連接以及高速公路或快速道路瓶頸段改善提升地方道路服務水準健全海空港"},{"start":2390.38,"end":2418.291,"text":"重要的科學產業的這個園區的聯外交通那這裡面我們短期內會完成國道3接台66的這個銜接交流道的銜接那在兩年內會完成淡江在明年底會完成淡江大橋這個通車那另外也會在2026年完成這個台76台9景觀大道的部分路段以及中峰交流道國道1中峰交流道的完工使用"},{"start":2421.133,"end":2438.13,"text":"長期的部分也會針對包括曾文溪橋包括土城京城交流道包括西濱61希望能夠在4年內完成相關的改善跟通車另外中期的部分我們針對開工的部分包括國一甲"},{"start":2438.931,"end":2441.873,"text":"臺61開工趙橋交流道、羊頭快速道路、羊頭高速公路、高屏二快都希望能在2025、2026順利開工"},{"start":2455.842,"end":2465.909,"text":"那再來鐵道的部分我們在今年年底前EMU3000跟EMU900所購置的600輛跟520輛的這個新的車廂都能夠交車來使用那另外針對E500跟R200的這個車頭那預計2026年來全數交車那可以提升整個台鐵的運能跟這個準點率那另外高鐵的"},{"start":2484.822,"end":2501.512,"text":"延伸跟增加班次我們預計在今年增加8.6比照疫情前增加8.6的運能增加相關的班次那另外在2026年以前針對高鐵延伸宜蘭能夠包括通過環評以及相關的這個計畫的這個核定跟啟動"},{"start":2505.492,"end":2528.099,"text":"那另外環島鐵路的雙軌化那麼預計在2026年以前在完成這個鐵路在花東地區鐵路雙軌化其中這個甘城到壽峰段的開工那另外台東到資本段我們希望能夠在4年內完成通車那台鐵的海線的雙軌化也能夠在3年內來完成核定"},{"start":2528.979,"end":2548.764,"text":"那另外都會區的捷運路網我們預計在今年來完成山陰線延伸到八德的核定那另外岡山路竹延伸的第一階段能夠完工通車那臺南的第一線第一期的南線也在今年來包括通過已經通過環評包括正式的核定計畫來啟動"},{"start":2551.044,"end":2578.134,"text":"那另外在2026年以前完成這個山陰縣信義縣東延那桃園綠縣第一階段的這個通車那麼我們希望包括台鐵的營運安全將一般的行車事故行車異常能夠降低50%那麼另外包括準點綠都能夠加以提升以及高鐵的運量那我們希望高鐵的新購的車廂可以在這個3年內完成交車那提升33%的這個運量"},{"start":2581.216,"end":2599.376,"text":"全新航廈服務躍升,打造東亞航空樞紐,推動桃園航空省起見計畫,中南部機場門戶服務量能提升,離島偏鄉飛安服務品質,建制更新飛航服務系統,其中包括"},{"start":2600.437,"end":2616.843,"text":"這個航空城的聯外道路臺15臺4能夠在今年內完成通車那另外第三航廈的北廊廳在明年底以前完成來啟用那這樣可以把整個運能淘機的運能提升到4280萬人次每年"},{"start":2619.524,"end":2638.583,"text":"第三航廈我們希望在3年內完成啟用可以把整個運量提升到8200萬人次另外在113年今年年底要啟動高雄的航廈的掀起工程另外在2026年"},{"start":2641.085,"end":2663.253,"text":"完成臺中跟高雄機場滑行道改善在2028年完成高雄機場航廈主體工程提升離島的飛安包括蘭嶼機場的整建北岡機場停車場開始動工以及完成七美望安等等風貌的改造希望透過這些能夠提升航廈空運的服務"},{"start":2666.474,"end":2693.332,"text":"那再來是智慧港口永續海運引領亞太的這個鏈結來全球那這裡包括智慧港口的智慧永續港口的建置觀光旅運港戶的設施的提升還有離島偏鄉航運的服務那我們預計在今年底的全面的啟動第7貨櫃的這個啟用那前面的這個來提升他的這個使用率那另外臺北港的這個智慧園區也的停車車輛園區也來啟用"},{"start":2696.833,"end":2717.4,"text":"針對觀光旅運的港戶,包括今年年底屏東的延浦後船市的啟用、澎湖馬宮郵輪旅運中心的啟用,以及增設相關的遊艇泊位。離島的偏鄉,包括臺東的民船、金門水頭、客運中心等,我們持續地來改善跟啟用。"},{"start":2718.28,"end":2733.854,"text":"最後就是針對精進有感的氣象服務,包括觀測的現代化,預報的精緻化,我們會完成20座沿海沿岸的氣象站,也針對雲林古坑的氣象站來加以啟用。"},{"start":2734.874,"end":2755.645,"text":"在2026年以前完成雲林宜蘭降雨雷達椅的安裝跟啟用對於預報經濟,針對高雄的都會區來客製化相關地震預警系統未來兩年內會延伸到包括台中等地區預警系統能夠讓它的精準度來提升"},{"start":2756.485,"end":2782.18,"text":"那麼讓這個包括地震的這個預測的時間能夠提早到14秒那海嘯的這個有30分鐘的這個應變的時間那以及在地的AI高解析度的預報模式那針對上述的相關的施政的這個方向那交通部將持續推動各項的陸海空等業務以安全為首要秉持行動與創新的精神"},{"start":2782.74,"end":2799.92,"text":"透過運用科技、優質服務及智慧、數位等三方面並進提高各項建設及服務品質建立以人為本的交通環境與服務創造全民美好的生活以上為交通部重要的業務報告那敬請各位委員予以指教謝謝"},{"start":2806.461,"end":2833.102,"text":"謝謝部長業務報告在以往的交通部部長的業務報告也有部長是在這一邊來做報告何承鄧部長每次的業務報告就是在這一邊因為他要做相關的簡報他有相關配合電腦螢幕那現在要進行詢問先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員6加1分鐘列席委員5分鐘"},{"start":2835.697,"end":2856.511,"text":"委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息好謝謝"},{"start":2864.11,"end":2884.107,"text":"我們現在請登記第一位李昆哲召回發言謝謝徐副委主席請一下李部長還有台鐵公司董事長有請部長跟杜董事長"},{"start":2885.962,"end":2913.971,"text":"以及公路總局 公路局 陳文睿局長 高鐵公司 蔣睿忠董事長好 麻煩局長跟董事長部長你好 部長是很認真 很普遍 也很高業的人其實我們在交通部 在交通委員會你是我在交通委員會第12個交通部長那"},{"start":2915.427,"end":2940.849,"text":"其實歷任的部長剛就任之初都有很多具體的政策的想法有的人想要推動綠色交通有的人想要推動智慧交通有的人想要全面的推動軌道交通等等但是不管對於交通部未來的政策方向規劃每個部長都有自己具體的一個想法但是最重要還是在於安全"},{"start":2941.73,"end":2963.268,"text":"我認為安全是交通部長最基本最重要的一個責任那今天因為時間的關係我就先針對鐵道安全來跟部長來交換相關的意見我們看到日本在2023年他們的新幹線跟在來線加起來"},{"start":2964.329,"end":2977.463,"text":"其實他們的鐵道總長是達到27311公里那每日的乘客大概1700萬人新幹線就好像我們這邊的高鐵再來線就好像我們這邊的台鐵那我們的台鐵啊"},{"start":2980.866,"end":3006.618,"text":"軌道的總長是1065公里那每天搭乘的人數大概在60到65萬人左右那我們看到2023年日本的鐵道的事故新幹線加上在來線總共是558件死亡0人受傷15人那台灣我們單單來看台鐵的部分台北有777件"},{"start":3008.519,"end":3031.775,"text":"那死亡的人數有25人受傷的人數有33人那針對台鐵的這個部分杜葳董事長在擔任台鐵局長以及擔任台鐵公司董事長之後有積極的要推動相關的改善的措施但是這個改善的措施目前還看不出來杜董事長還有部長"},{"start":3033.178,"end":3055.731,"text":"買新車剛才部長有提到EMU900型520輛都已經到了那EMU3000型總共是600輛也來了564輛到8月底通通會到嘛對不對來杜董事長說明一下是我們EMU900型現在已經全部都上線了你愛行車買行車那這個新車總共是將近970億左右那"},{"start":3062.202,"end":3091.303,"text":"有新車相關的安全計畫交通委員會不分朝野的立委都全力的支持不管是過去的六年行車安全改善計畫或者是電路智慧化的提升計畫或是小半徑彎曲的改善計畫是還有軌道結構安全的改善計畫這個經費也將近一千億八百億左右大概八百億左右也都全力的支持那目前這些計畫的進度是如何呢來杜董事長"},{"start":3092.704,"end":3110.256,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛講的這一些計畫我們其實在台鐵局階段我們都有按照時程在進行剛剛委員提到這個的確我們跟日本相比還有很多改善的空間這個我們在公司階段我們會持續來做加強"},{"start":3111.617,"end":3135.897,"text":"杜董事長我現在是具體的來提出要求這是民眾在看的認為說政府還有交通委員會部分草原的立委都在支持你們不管是新車或是相關的安全改善計畫花很多錢啦都轉給你們支持那為什麼這些相關的事故死亡人數受傷人數沒有辦法降下來呢要提出具體的說明啦"},{"start":3136.977,"end":3151.711,"text":"跟委員報告其實這是有比較綜合性的因素那我們現在在做的就是把以前我們台鐵比較欠缺的我們的安全體系把它已經建立了董事長因為時間的關係"},{"start":3153.573,"end":3167.575,"text":"你現在臺鐵剛改制為臺鐵公司部長我們就給臺鐵公司杜董事長一年的時間來觀察我們整年的相關的件數死亡人數受傷人數都必須要具體的下降"},{"start":3169.428,"end":3183.798,"text":"部長說明一下你對台鐵相關的安全要如何具體的督促?安全的部分我想台鐵的安全因素是大家都非常的關注那大概可以分三個方向一個是車一個是路一個是人"},{"start":3184.378,"end":3199.733,"text":"那車的部分我們現在已經在委員的支持之下更新了他的車輛那我想對車輛的性能的安全性會有提升那路的部分就是包括邊坡等等還有路口有些平交道路口因為台北現在還有400多處"},{"start":3200.674,"end":3200.934,"text":"高鐵公司姜董事長"},{"start":3229.554,"end":3251.389,"text":"我們台灣的高鐵大概是350公里每天搭乘的人數現在都大概有20萬左右去年是20萬對那其實我們看到高鐵相關的事故其實也有逐年上升的這個趨勢這個要特別注意我們2021年的事故有16件2022年27件2023年已經達到36件2014年1月到4月現在已經有8件"},{"start":3258.834,"end":3284.992,"text":"這個必須啊這個速度這麼快的高鐵相關的事故是不容發生來董事長說明一下的確是這樣沒有錯那我想屬於可規則台灣高鐵公司的事件的確今年是1到5月總共事件那兩件呢是屬於保安系統就是倒岔的操作這兩天不是又一件嗎"},{"start":3286.226,"end":3288.765,"text":"那另外有兩件是人為疏失"},{"start":3291.19,"end":3304.257,"text":"這個都要具體的改善那當然好那陳文貴局長還有部長我現在要來講另外一個議題偽造車牌的問題當然偽造車牌現在很嚴重2022年有查到519件2023年924件今年1到5月已經837件我看今年可能就會突破2000件"},{"start":3316.664,"end":3316.784,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3337.964,"end":3355.896,"text":"委造相關的車牌那這一種的是更難更難去查緝因為有時候交通警察在路上也會看到這個車牌跟這個車的型號就不一樣或顏色不一樣所以越普及越大眾型的這種車輛他的車牌被偽造的件數會越多"},{"start":3356.676,"end":3373.891,"text":"但是我們看到當然有相關的兩條法令在查起就是道路交通管理處罰條例第12條編造車牌處滑環3600以上10800元或者是禁止行駛那還有刑法第212條"},{"start":3376.653,"end":3391.843,"text":"委託特種文書罪是一年以下有期徒刑、居宜或者是9000元以下的罰金但是執法很困難對不對陳局長因為你從來遠去查去的話他會說這是人家要收藏車牌"},{"start":3393.575,"end":3408.527,"text":"你很難去查去 來說明一下是 各位報告我們目前大概就是說從這個警察機關跟監理機關就是說因為道路上面有一些的就是說像剛委員所提到高速公路它ETC裡面就是說如果說因為要繳費"},{"start":3409.668,"end":3432.919,"text":"所以在同一個這很短的時間裡面就是說同樣的車牌號碼在不同的地方出現的話其實確實像高速公路局就會把這個資訊給我們我們在這個最近一年確實高速公路局移過來有830件那這個部分的話其實屬於這個衛照變照的第一個處罰條例這邊就是註銷然後再來的話就是有些需要移送檢察機關去查緝的也會去處理"},{"start":3434.56,"end":3453.119,"text":"在目前我們交通部局公路局的態度都非常消極都跟消費者跟我們的駕駛人說你的車牌被偽造你趕快去換車牌就這麼消極的態度說民眾苦不堪言我們來看我們因為時間的關係我具體的建議第一個我們能不能增加車牌的偽造難度"},{"start":3458.226,"end":3484.425,"text":"這個部分我們再來我們跟警政系統要建立聯防的機制這個局長部長我們來跟這個警政署來相關的這樣的一個聯繫對話我們要研議去使用變造車牌的駕駛人在監理機關內部來進行註記就是說在一定期限內出現再犯者必須要加重他的相關的罰則這個公路局跟交通部要來研議"},{"start":3485.486,"end":3490.23,"text":"在該車主遭到變造車牌情況還沒有改善之前要提供必須的援助來部長說明一下"},{"start":3505.277,"end":3512.422,"text":"我想確實委員剛剛提到的增加這個防偽的這個這個等級那這個我們請公務局來來做研議那另外怎麼樣讓有偽造有連續偽造的記錄的人那麼他加重他的這個罰則這個我們也來處理局長時間的關係你們能不能在一個月內提出相關的改善辦法"},{"start":3528.254,"end":3529.034,"text":"現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":3563.5,"end":3567.097,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們先請交通部李孟諺部長請李部長"},{"start":3578.124,"end":3594.554,"text":"部長第一次來交通委員會質詢那當然本席要來就教幾個問題我想從今天的書面報告跟今天口的報告裡面我想給部長先看一個這個全台灣的人口密度的這個分佈圖"},{"start":3595.935,"end":3618.951,"text":"這邊是全台灣前20大人口分佈的這個行政,密度最高的行政區那也看到說其實前20大裡面有3個區域目前都還沒有捷運建設剛好這3個都在台中市好那我想從今天的這個口頭報告跟書面報告裡面書面報告裡面羅列了全台灣各地正在進行的這個捷運建設那其中光是這個台北都會區就佔了9條"},{"start":3620.532,"end":3624.996,"text":"臺中現在人口密度高那他要是全國第二人口第二多的城市但是在我們整個全國這個捷運建設裡面似乎落後其他城市許多部長你認同嗎"},{"start":3646.422,"end":3670.891,"text":"我想台中現在是只有一條捷運那在六都裡面確實以他的人口比例是還有進步的這個空間好部長謝謝那在看到我們台中所謂的這個大宗捷運系統整體路網有分所謂的近期中期遠期我想先請教一下部長這個近期中期遠期他是一個固定的概念還是可以隨著都市的發展來調整的概念"},{"start":3672.231,"end":3697.565,"text":"我想每個地方政府他在提報根據整個整個整體入網裡面哪一些要提報優先這個部分是可以來彈性調整可以彈性調整嗎因為你看所謂近期入網108到105所謂近期入網捷運綠線當然現在主要的完成它的延伸性還沒有做藍線也才剛過了所謂的那個綜合規劃還要再蓋10年那我們的橘線所謂機場捷運"},{"start":3698.886,"end":3718.465,"text":"目前也還在這個可規之前也還在這個交通部在準備繼續審所以108到125這三條其實基本上真正能做完的在這個綠線算是做好而已做好一半了80%做好還有20%還沒做所以其他都還等於都還在進度中那我要提的是其實像這一次我要特別跟局長來跟部長來拜託就是說"},{"start":3720.885,"end":3747.9,"text":"中期入網有一條這個崇德豐源線那這個崇德豐源線大家可以看到一下我們從下一頁他沿途經過了北區北屯潭子神崗豐源這個整個服務區域包含了這幾個區域有包含十四季重化潭子加工區還有很多學校那還有很多重要的這個觀光遊戲區域配合台中市的都市計畫包含我們的朱立棒球場包含我們的崇德義中商圈還有未來的巨蛋還有很多新的百貨公司等等的"},{"start":3748.34,"end":3777.301,"text":"所以其實這個崇德豐原縣臺中市的人口如果這幾年快速成長如果我們可以從人口結構上看到主要就是在這個崇德豐原縣上他的人口在快速成長所以我想要問的是說這個本來崇德豐原縣是被列為這個中期路網那部長你有沒有機會支持讓崇德豐原縣提早一點因為像比如說我們的所謂的近期路網藍線當年的可行性規劃跟這綠線的可行性規劃可能就光是前面的文書作業又走了10年了"},{"start":3778.381,"end":3798.752,"text":"崇德豐元縣如果我要按照就算按照本來的期程要120年開始做的話是不是有機會能把它提前一點點崇德豐元縣我想就整體的入網裡面有哪一些遠期入網要提早那通常我們這個是由地方政府就是市政府這邊來發動那我想細節我是不是請局長跟您"},{"start":3802.625,"end":3818.804,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個案子我們委員還有這個副院長也非常關切那現在因為他是列在中期入網那我覺得這個程序可以並行也就是說同步來調整我們的入網計畫跟啟動這樣的一個案子的可行性研究"},{"start":3819.764,"end":3843.191,"text":"所以這個部內會支持我們把這個崇德風先提早一點開始做相關的文書作業提早開始做吧是的好謝謝部長也謝謝我們局長好那接下來換這個談論一個民生議題我想都會區的民眾非常的在意一件事情就是我們這個噪音車啊但在這個噪音車在現行的道路交通管理處罰條例裡面"},{"start":3844.69,"end":3859.542,"text":"在這個112年也曾經修法把它提高過在43條的第5項裡面提到說拆除消音器或以其他方式造造成噪音的話可以適用這個道交處罰條例但是我想問一下部長你知道實務上這一條對於這個噪音車是不是適用嗎"},{"start":3868.175,"end":3880.466,"text":"目前我們的交通的法規是只有針對違規裝這個不合格的消音器有相關的罰則但是對於噪音的那個分貝數是在環境部這邊的處罰不過細節我請我們司長跟您報告"},{"start":3887.07,"end":3906.759,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下就是針對43條的部分基本上是以危險駕駛為前提那當時在立這個拆除效應器或以其他方式造成噪音那基本上是當時這個飆車那有拆除這個效應器或是當時飆車有弄那個鐵鍊然後在地上磨當時是這樣子立法這個原意"},{"start":3907.239,"end":3935.197,"text":"那後來就是說都市噪音比較那個的那噪音超過噪音標準那個部分是回歸到這個噪音管制法這邊相關的規定那這個課題其實也有跟這個環境部跟警政署那邊做過這個討論那在執法的這個觀點而言的話警署那邊是認為說這個東西還是要以危險價值行為為前提市長謝謝其實我知道你們在105年交通部在105年有一個函式但是這個函式我看完之後我覺得這個等於"},{"start":3936.458,"end":3959.273,"text":"這個還是看完之後我覺得這個原來原條文那等於形同句文啊因為這個你們把它解釋成是因為包含現在講說這是因為有危險價值嚴重超出等等的但是它的白紙黑字中文上面明明就寫著說就是有這個其他方式製造噪音但是如果要去解釋什麼叫其他方式製造噪音又這樣擴張解釋的話"},{"start":3960.894,"end":3976.366,"text":"等於這個條文對我來講或對很多民眾來講他等於沒有辦法適用在現在有很多人是為了拆除消音器或製造噪音因為在深夜在這種都會區來飆宿的時候他的噪音是不是這條現在是無法處理的我想確認這件事情"},{"start":3980.921,"end":3992.977,"text":"如果說單純他只要有拆除消音器的話就有這條的一個適用那如果說之前大家這個在討論的時候欸噪音超過比如說100分貝是不是拆除會適用那改裝可以使用嗎"},{"start":3995.2,"end":4020.605,"text":"改裝製造噪音改裝的部分的話就會回到這個處罰條例這個第16條的部分增減這些相關這個排氣管的部分所以這一次環保署實施那個機車排氣管單品認證那以後如果說要換裝排氣管就要使用環保署這個認證合格的產品那如果說不符合他那個部分的話就會依照16條來做處理就是這個擅自增減這個不合格的這個排氣管"},{"start":4020.905,"end":4025.868,"text":"環境部的部分如果要提相關的修法我想問一下我們交通部這邊會不會以這個所謂的43條的這個精神來支持相關的噪音管制的法條"},{"start":4044.261,"end":4045.742,"text":"黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":4072.705,"end":4093.096,"text":"請李部長請李部長還有我們林師長請林師長 林福山師長委員好好 部長本席這會退回報告書的但是你這次我看起來啊"},{"start":4094.293,"end":4116.115,"text":"你們的數據跟你們的作為是靈活跟去年不一樣就代表這個部長從事務觀上來確確實實是有進步的所以我們交通單位也就是我們本委員會被我退"},{"start":4118.07,"end":4144.562,"text":"報告的是非常多你是少數我認為你是沒有抄襲的這點我可以跟你證明另外一個剛才我們召委在講部長的壽命也就是當部長的壽命只有兩年但是這裡面我要提供給你一個參考第一這個交通部長本來不確定性是高的"},{"start":4145.967,"end":4151.594,"text":"第二所屬所有人不積極的態度更嚴重"},{"start":4152.734,"end":4176.986,"text":"所以這個部分部長你要抓住這個不確定是天災但是不積極是人禍所以這個部分我要提醒部長在這個部分可能還要加緊你從事務官起來當政務官這種態度去追根究柢引導他們恢復積極的態度這是我對你的祈勉"},{"start":4178.655,"end":4195.391,"text":"另外我就要跟這個司長來請教我們道交條例67條之一當然這個酒駕終生不能考照但是我看到我們現在開了這個後門這個部分"},{"start":4200.731,"end":4227.597,"text":"部長你的看法是什麼看法我們了解現在酒駕其實他也有他現在是有雖然是不得考照不過他現在有一個其實是加嚴去觀察就是有6年的觀察期的這樣的一個規定那我想這個部分是確保就是說酒駕如果萬一他又有一個臨時的駕照但是整個觀察期加長確認他沒有在違規的一個狀況那細節我是不是請"},{"start":4230.679,"end":4237.097,"text":"酒駕你們做這個決定啊做這個決定啊是已經13年前的事"},{"start":4238.096,"end":4261.672,"text":"13年前酒駕是行政滑滑喔可是本宴修滑之後知道全國裡面酒駕是非常嚴重的所以加重騎行有刑責喔有刑責喔所以那兩個時段的考量情景是會不一樣所以市長這個部分是你在主導"},{"start":4262.532,"end":4280.293,"text":"有沒有可能其他的部分去開放個人沒有意見但是酒駕是全國最痛恨的明明是酒駕要肇事又致死可是最後他有一定時間他就可以去考照這合理嗎"},{"start":4281.335,"end":4303.416,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下可能這個最近就是部裡面修正道路交通安全規則加嚴有關於吊扣吊銷必須要領短效期的駕照那一些相關配套法律的修正而造成外界有些這個誤解但是剛剛委員提到一個重點就是說處罰條例67條之一那個是民國95年修的一個這個部分那當時是在法官事宪531號因為原來處罰條例"},{"start":4305.998,"end":4306.578,"text":"市長你看清楚他根本沒有講違憲"},{"start":4323.55,"end":4341.628,"text":"他根本要你們檢討這個叫做什麼他最後一個重點就是這個吊銷駕駛人之恢復適應社會能力或改善具體事實他沒有講他沒有講危險喔市長所以啊你們就過度解讀啦沒關係那這個"},{"start":4344.47,"end":4359.215,"text":"這個東西他根本沒有講違憲的問題是叫你們這個部分他有能力恢復社會適應的態度要你們檢討所以我個人的看法跟個人的建議給林司長做參考酒駕照試"},{"start":4361.036,"end":4381.697,"text":"至於至實不能考照這種東西要把它明定下去至於其他我真的沒有意見但是酒駕肇事至實這種東西是講十二不設當然嚴重但是最起碼的話我們要嚴懲所以我要建議師長"},{"start":4382.898,"end":4383.018,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":4403.931,"end":4406.033,"text":"主席我請那個觀光署我們周署長"},{"start":4441.411,"end":4464.347,"text":"委員好好局長你剛才的書面報告裡面講一句話我有感覺是有一點心酸吶也有一點難過你講的一句話就是觀光品牌飲客千萬來台欸這是押韻或者你想要做的不定"},{"start":4466.235,"end":4493.845,"text":"觀光品牌影客千萬來台這是在做文章還是想你以後要做我們也期待今年能夠有達到一千萬的國際觀光客來台這是我們的目標我個人對於你從政過程當處事言者但是這個叫做口號我現在要跟你談的是屏東大鵬灣的管理問題"},{"start":4495.319,"end":4514.671,"text":"所以我也知道州署長全國有13個都要你來管理但是這些管理當中你署長沒有問題底下的人有問題這是最慘的事我要跟你談的大鵬灣署長你知道有光雕表演嗎"},{"start":4519.017,"end":4538.114,"text":"另外一個大鵬灣為什麼這個光雕現在變成沒有意義了這個第一個給你做參考第二個每一次大鵬灣你們都做半雕禁止釣魚可是航道裡面漁網一大堆"},{"start":4539.386,"end":4556.611,"text":"主流你知道嗎這個就是你們管理的問題另外一個不能捕魚不能釣魚釣客一大堆你們也不管這個也沒有關係但是只要管理得當那其他OK另外一個比較嚴重的"},{"start":4559.488,"end":4577.83,"text":"我上次去考察已經跟你們講署長你也答應柯和島的修復現在進行到什麼程度是這個大鵬灣的柯和島確實他有歷史的你不要跟我講那麼多啦現在已經發包了然後工程什麼時候發包的來"},{"start":4578.451,"end":4606.389,"text":"我們在3月底的時候確實有一個部分還沒有完成你可以騙我不要騙部長喔沒有沒有沒有你可以騙我但是不能騙部長我們確定了是欸柏中你要聽一下欸我跟你講騙我沒關係不能騙你喔跟委員報告一下你也很非常清楚就是每次颱風的時候柯和島都會受到影響我知道啦花苞的沒有啦已經發苞了而且絕標了已經發苞了喔對誰跟你講花苞啦"},{"start":4608.475,"end":4615.831,"text":"誰跟你講花包的我們景區發展組當然是督導管理處啦那管理處確實也我跟你講 署長"},{"start":4617.284,"end":4643.31,"text":"我已經告訴你們市長你有13個風景區你是很忙碌的但是屬下不能騙你們不能騙你們我希望你這個部分你查清楚花包的沒有我跟你講喔我跟你講喔大鵬灣我跟你講我對你們非常尊重我要問什麼我都還事先告訴你們所以我希望我不希望"},{"start":4644.19,"end":4668.101,"text":"你去騙立法委員你們因為有前車之鑒已經騙立法委員騙到底了所以我不會相信我希望 組長不要講話我希望等一下你說花包你拿出來花包的資料如果沒有下次我還是會追好不好因為我看我們主席也站起來了啦但是最後"},{"start":4668.721,"end":4693.496,"text":"拜託主席給我30秒我要呼籲高鐵台鐵還有我們陳局長公路高速公路上一次交通安全監控系統的部分我希望我上次要求你們要把所有安全係數以及多少個點我已經告訴你們請提供給本委員會"},{"start":4694.517,"end":4701.442,"text":"本席去做監督參考這個部分我再度在提醒因為部長李部長"},{"start":4702.984,"end":4732.129,"text":"我再度提醒你在這裡作證不要下一次我在追的時候你們每一個被我K到我不管喔因為我本來是很溫和的啦但是看到這樣我希望你們盡快提供給我好不好你們各單位有多少個那個監視站安全的監視站坡度的監視等等趕快提供給我不要在立法院答應我的事情來欺騙立法院這樣是滑是不容的"},{"start":4732.349,"end":4759.599,"text":"好不好拜託好謝謝主席好謝謝林國成委員發言完畢針對林國成委員所提有關於高鐵台鐵以及公路局高工局相關的邊坡偵測以及落實偵測相關的系統請於下週三之前加到交通委員會這些都有具體的相關的數據及資料那第二"},{"start":4760.37,"end":4761.771,"text":"現在請林佩祥委員發言"},{"start":4788.651,"end":4789.093,"text":"有請李部長"},{"start":4797.979,"end":4826.638,"text":"部長這是我們第三次見面那我們上禮拜有見過一次面就是在基隆八斗子走山之前這時候你特地由臺這邊做提早通車也在現場檢查的目前狀況那本席對於這次交通部在我們八斗子走山這邊的事情給予高度的肯定不過第一次我們見面的時候我有跟部長提到說因為現在兩岸的關係相對緊張所以說大陸方面隨時都有所謂的軍演軍事演習"},{"start":4827.478,"end":4844.887,"text":"所以對於空運跟貨運海運貨運上面我們必須幫我們的航商找出路來讓他們能夠把這個空運也好海運也好他們貨運能夠運出去那我想那時候請問的請問的部長這個問題那請問部長現在有沒有一些具體的回答"},{"start":4847.349,"end":4859.722,"text":"我想確實是台灣的局勢比較特殊我們面對對岸有一些這個包括軍演等等的這些潛在的一些威脅所以我們必須要做好相關的萬全的這個準備"},{"start":4861.604,"end":4878.816,"text":"那相關的這個假設萬一有這個狀況的時候那相關的航運怎麼樣來維持一個暢通那這個跟軍方也有做相關的國防部這邊也有相關的沙盤推演那有有些細節我是不是請我們的請局長還有這個行政請簡單請簡單回答謝謝"},{"start":4883.039,"end":4910.196,"text":"謝謝委員的提問那有關空運的部分基本上我們在相關的一些不管是飛航滾制或者是機場的部分其實我們都有做相關的一些應該是說所謂的一些演練的部分那如果根據上次每一次的這個中共的軍演其實我們也會密切關注他所有發布的訊息然後針對他發布的訊息去做相關的因應"},{"start":4913.219,"end":4930.639,"text":"海運方面海運的部分我們同樣會密切掌握陸方發布的這個相關的訊息他們的海事局如果有軍人訊息都會在網路上做公佈那我們跟軍方也都有聯繫的廣大"},{"start":4932.401,"end":4949.802,"text":"那我們如果接獲訊息之後第一個動作我們會發布所謂的航船報告警示周邊的這個船舶第一個時間能夠掌握這個軍演的這個區域在航行的過程中能夠瞭望跟避難確保這個安全"},{"start":4951.724,"end":4966.745,"text":"謝謝部長我有什麼特地提到空運跟海運因為我們的我們台灣基本上還是一個出口為主的國家那我們所有的商人尤其是貨運行商他們如果說一天沒有辦法出去的話對他們的商機對我們整個民生的影響是很巨大的"},{"start":4967.285,"end":4984.749,"text":"今天我是站在航商的立場向部長請議說這個事情非常重要但是未來遇到像這樣的事情第一時間不是應該跟立法院報告而是應該跟航商做積極的溝通讓航商他們能夠把這個貨能夠送出去我認為這是比較務實比較重要的"},{"start":4984.989,"end":5010.558,"text":"像最近這一次大陸就有發布包括環島的幾個演習的區塊那我們有掌握他的訊息那也把這些資訊也公布給相關的行商等等那讓他們有避開或者是相關的一個因應的處置的作為好謝謝那部長第二個議題我想要請教就是其實剛剛我們李昭偉在講說交通政策裡面安全是最重要的本席深以為然"},{"start":5011.378,"end":5035.426,"text":"本席因為之前在12年前曾經在港務公司去任職過那時候的港務公司剛成立的時候是一個希望說以新加坡淡馬席那個PSA來去做藍圖來做的一個公司一個國營企業體那時候有個企劃在高雄旗津外海準備做出LNG液態天然氣的轉運站"},{"start":5037.383,"end":5063.781,"text":"不知道 這個是12年前的事情 那個時候本席剛好是負責這一個這個對外招商 然後我本席知道那時候有一份報告就是說針對在旗津外海做LNG液態天然氣的轉運站不是發電廠是液態天然氣的轉運站的這個報告那報告後面指出來之後說有一定程度的危險性那之後最後面送到時任交通部長葉匡石"},{"start":5065.242,"end":5086.159,"text":"岳光石岳部長直接打回票說這個案是草菅人命那我本席在這邊特地把它提出來我本席也會行公文特地去交通部去港務公司要求完整的報告我必須知道第一個當初誰做的報告第二個當初做的報告的circumstances整個後面外部環境是什麼第三個"},{"start":5086.9,"end":5101.068,"text":"爆炸的機率有多高因為據本席知道說當初當初這個案子被被葉部長葉前部長說我這個決定介紹這樣的行商進來介紹這樣的商業進來是草菅人命的原因就是一個爆炸的機率比核電廠高"},{"start":5102.068,"end":5117.433,"text":"是轉運站其實是外海的轉運站然後第4個爆炸的範圍有多大這個我想要有一個結論我知道這個有一個完整的報告因為本席當初在港務公司12年前任職負責這個案子那我想請問說現在我看到我們港務公司的董事長已經在任請問您知道這個案子嗎"},{"start":5119.283,"end":5146.425,"text":"那個委員跟委員報告一下那剛剛委員有談到這個我們目前在找這一方面的資料目前還沒有找到沒有問題我會再次去公文我需要這個報告的原因是如果12年前港務公司交通部的港務公司做出來這樣的報告在旗津的外海做LNG的轉運站是草菅人命那今天你跟我講你在基隆港的港嘴你給我做個LNG的發電廠"},{"start":5149.173,"end":5176.443,"text":"說是保護國家能源安全那有沒有罔顧航道安全基隆港的基隆商港一年的獲益是3000億然後因為說一個能源轉型的失敗然後你就罔顧能源安全部長您認為說從剛開始到現在從以前的業部長的對於安全的標準跟現在政府對於安全的標準是不是因為時空背景不同而有改變"},{"start":5178.271,"end":5203.83,"text":"我想安全都是大家一貫所追求最重要的一個首要的原則那這個部分有關這個四階的部分那另外在這個地方有天然氣的發電廠是不是對港口等等安全有影響這個之前有跟經濟部跟交通部港務公司有做過相關的評估那我是不是請董事長再跟您報告一下"},{"start":5204.15,"end":5213.478,"text":"我現在想要知道是說是不是因為說政府執政團隊不同之後對於安全的標準是不是有兩套因為如果說12年前"},{"start":5217.031,"end":5241.702,"text":"轉運站在LNG的轉運站在其今萬海是被認為是不安全的那今天同樣的LNG的發電廠在基隆港的港嘴然後經濟部說可以那我就很好奇說當初是不是同樣是不是兩個不同的顧問公司去做出來兩個不同的這個結果而且做出來的標準是什麼理論上港口針對港口安全"},{"start":5242.702,"end":5269.126,"text":"的study應該都是同一套標準不應該有兩套標準對吧尤其基隆港的東北季風比高雄港我記得來得強一點是吧那變成是說我們今天看到的是LNG在LNG的轉運在在旗津外海沒問題在旗津外海有問題在基隆港港嘴然後居然說這個其實我們應該我們這樣子可以吞得下去這點來講本席是對於說這樣兩套標準是非常不能認同的"},{"start":5269.406,"end":5292.305,"text":"那我希望這份報告在兩個禮拜之內可以到本席的辦公室可以嗎因為我知道這份報告的存在而且這份報告的結果我大概知道為什麼因為我曾經被因為這樣被我們長官們罵過目前是我們現在還在找對那麻煩這份資料很重要這是有關我基隆市基隆港的生存那謝謝部長"},{"start":5294.479,"end":5317.689,"text":"謝謝林佩祥委員發言完畢在此先做宣告本日有委員提出臨時提案以本會王立在登記質詢的本會委員發言告於段落之後來做處理那稍後我們將在何新淳委員詢答完畢後隨即處理臨時提案現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5331.333,"end":5334.797,"text":"謝謝主席 北京要請我們交通部李部長請李部長"},{"start":5344.698,"end":5368.071,"text":"跟部長討論臺南市的一些交通建設我是覺得非常比較輕鬆啦因為部長對臺南非常了解部長本身也代理過臺南市長另外在臺南市也擔任過局長、副市長可以說是服務多年在本席邀請部長到臺南的考察當中"},{"start":5369.717,"end":5397.48,"text":"這個我們地方也很高興我們期盼的就是說臺南鐵路軌道建設的延續部長也確定了臺南的鐵路地下化延伸到永康的事情包警官那個字有寫中臺南鐵路的地下化延伸到永康另外就是新式散化的臺鐵立體化的計畫另外以及臺南的最新的有一條新的捷運"},{"start":5400.372,"end":5412.819,"text":"從南區中區區一直到安南區就叫安南區延伸到南科這兩個系統這個部分是不是請部長全力支持"},{"start":5413.942,"end":5432.672,"text":"是我想包括台南現在正在施工的鐵路地下化對我們會要求鐵道局這邊競速的那麼如果文資的問題解決可以在兩年半以內完工通車就是讓他第一階段可以下地這個軌道鐵路都可以到地下化的部分嗎"},{"start":5433.693,"end":5456.272,"text":"延伸到永康這個部分可行性評估也已經有包括討論的多次那現在善化那個站目前大家也有共識就是分開處理那這個部分我們會請臺南市政府趕快把這個報告就可以加速進行了就鐵路地下化原本只是臺南市的救市區現在可以延伸到永康"},{"start":5456.912,"end":5461.295,"text":"臺鐵進入新市立體化消除新市散化的五個平交道新市散化就是南科南科已經是世界最重要的半導體生產的地方"},{"start":5479.125,"end":5504.932,"text":"那進出每天啊南科那麼多的人啊那竟然還要等平交道啊這實在是非常落伍但是新式上化的海鐵立體化就非常重要這個說讓交通啊更順暢更安全啊新式到南科這一段那包括南科站也會跟著來改善更新那我想這一段確實有它的這個必要性因為消除了很多的危險的平交道的這個路口"},{"start":5506.273,"end":5519.781,"text":"所以謝謝部長這裡的支持那這個地方也希望我們加快來進行因為同時我們昨天的座談也民眾包括在地的議員也表示新市站有遷移大家也支持就往北移這個是原來地方也有這樣的一個共識"},{"start":5521.682,"end":5546.919,"text":"那同時還能最新的這個黃線這個黃線基本上也是為了市區就安南區通到南科通到新市那這一條的可信性評估的經費那也請交通部裡面來支持那部長請教一個觀光的問題兩岸觀光啊原本中國說要派了彩線團到馬祖"},{"start":5548.626,"end":5552.547,"text":"兩岸觀光的恢復有沒有機會有沒有可能那是用什麼樣的模式啊來恢復兩岸的觀光"},{"start":5568.192,"end":5586.301,"text":"跟委員報告有關於這個馬祖這個案子那個陸委會這個邱卓也表明嘛只要他們這個到了這個實際到了馬祖之後那麼他們會有對外統一的這個說法那我們當然是樂觀的方式歡迎"},{"start":5587.541,"end":5593.106,"text":"臺灣跟中國之間會不會開放?這個涉及到那個整個還要跨部會協商的部分跨部會協商嗎?那我們的共識是什麼?我們的立場是什麼?"},{"start":5616.02,"end":5636.64,"text":"我們是希望能夠在對等的一個一個一個原則之下那加強雙方的這個交流就照賴總統在就職典禮演說所揭示的這個原則總統也表示樂觀其成嘛是不是就在我們一定的原則之下好那現在兩岸的觀光卡在什麼地方"},{"start":5637.686,"end":5659.162,"text":"目前其實是這樣就是我們開放的程度比對方開放的程度我們開放比較多比如說我們已經有自由行過去那我們現在6月1號也開始就是說過去有成團的或是有規劃要組團的我們也容許他繼續的出團所以在認定上其實是比較有彈性的"},{"start":5660.402,"end":5678.012,"text":"對岸是連自由行都沒有過來所以人數也差距很大我們過去的去年就有176萬那對岸過來的才20幾萬所以不是我們不開放也不是我們阻礙兩岸的觀光是不是這樣我覺得這個立場要講清楚開放的對等性其實我們是比較open的"},{"start":5678.992,"end":5694.326,"text":"對,我們是比較開放,現在很多的旅行業者很期盼,他們都誤解以為是民進黨,是台灣這邊不開放基本上就是中國的一些政治考量,我認為應該是絕對是這樣子那我不知道兩邊現在洽談的有沒有進度這個說明"},{"start":5701.79,"end":5727.173,"text":"目前我們也是希望能夠我們有一個觀光小兩會我們也是希望能夠這個對等的來商談那剩下的時間我要請教部長部長這個我一直啊非常多次而且我也長期關心就是我們這個大車造勢的問題"},{"start":5729.523,"end":5749.165,"text":"過去本席提出大車肇事很多原因歸納駕駛都說他看不見我們知道大車轉彎有內輪差有視野的盲點後來我們就敦促交通部解決這個問題交通部之前提出的就是所謂的視野輔助系統"},{"start":5750.146,"end":5758.556,"text":"布裡面也補助很多錢我了解的話補助差不多6億那全國的大車有20萬輛結果這個系統啊 證明是完全無效因為我有看過這個系統就它有很多螢幕"},{"start":5765.717,"end":5765.957,"text":"主席"},{"start":5787.148,"end":5812.044,"text":"那最近又發生 你看大師又發生一個悲劇因為大師只要一肇事 不是死 非死 起碼都是非常重大傷亡你看有一個阿公載孫子去上課 被連結車 壓爆頭 造成死亡事件等等那現在檢討過去失業補助系統 這根本就是一個幾乎是智障級的一個系統"},{"start":5813.274,"end":5842.256,"text":"後來交通部說那他要再改善啊就現在我們所謂的主動行車主動的一種輔助系統主動預警系統啊就是他會主動來提醒駕駛那目前啊績效如何大概裝了多少鋪啊好像裝800鋪嗎跟文包那個計畫研發的目標是裝800輛啊到昨天是785啊剩下15輛是靠航車我們這個議定法案那我要請教部長"},{"start":5843.517,"end":5866.238,"text":"這個系統就是要取代之前的系統因為之前那個系統證明是完全無效那現在這個主動預警系統那接下來呢全國大廈有20萬輛他現在交通部是先試做800輛裝了800輛那接下來這800輛效果如何我因為時間有問題我們主席已經站起來了我請教部長現在這一台多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":5869.467,"end":5894.246,"text":"跟821的部分的話大概成本開發的部分大概是20到這個25萬那800張我們這個當時補助的話是以一半大概10萬塊來補助做安裝做這個系統的這個研發那你業者還要自己出10萬那個是系統研發的廠商他要附帶這個部分那你有沒有辦法要求20萬量都裝或是你的目標要裝起來如果你有一個系統"},{"start":5895.629,"end":5917.311,"text":"那你沒有一定的就是說大家都不要裝那你這個系統做出來幹嘛跟委員報告一下或者是說你有辦法強制要裝嗎這個計畫的目標有兩個第一個部分就是說開發這個研發這樣子八合一的系統那把這個產業標準定出來那產業標準架構定出來之後而後"},{"start":5917.611,"end":5917.911,"text":"新車進口都有裝"},{"start":5947.648,"end":5973.883,"text":"因為時間的問題啦那後續部分我再跟工總來瞭解一下謝謝部長好謝謝局長謝謝主席林靜憲委員發言完畢現在請何欣淳委員發言等一下請葉元之委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘請各助理聯絡各黨的委員以便他們安排相關的時間現在請何欣淳委員發言"},{"start":5977.141,"end":5978.809,"text":"謝謝主席李坤澤召委我們請部長"},{"start":5987.347,"end":5991.611,"text":"臺中一中畢業,你也是半個臺中人,所以我剛剛很仔細的在聽你的這個口頭的簡報,報告這個業務,這個臺中你琢磨很少,我第一頁就要拜託你"},{"start":6008.767,"end":6033.937,"text":"臺中市的交通建設要拜託你全力支持可以嗎這一份細項我會再送給你親自送給你好不好接著因為今天時間很短說要加快速度這個我們賴清德總統承諾這個終結了藍線過關之後一定會全力的支持那中央呢這邊呢既然已經合定了也決定要做了那拜託效率好一點好不好"},{"start":6034.397,"end":6056.286,"text":"因為你剛剛在你的報告裡面你講了都會區的捷運路網你都要支持但自讀讀沒提到台中這個我覺得我剛剛聽到我也覺得希望部長請把台中記在心裡這個台中的捷運路網大家都很期待當然地方政府有"},{"start":6057.406,"end":6082.913,"text":"該他應該積極有效率的一面但是呢我們中央也要積極有效率的督促跟來做審議好不好因為接下來我看到捷運的藍線合併之後再來還有橘線橘線呢已經呢地方政府修正了之後呢又送到我們部裡面今年4月10號那是不是可以盡快的來審議然後另外一條叫做屯區的捷運就是紫線紫線呢"},{"start":6084.813,"end":6104.379,"text":"臺中市政府也已經報到部裡面也要召開這個初審會議了這兩個會議可不可以儘速來召開我先跟委員報告就是因為我剛剛在口頭報告裡面講的都是有開工或者是完工通車的部分就是沒有臺中的捷運所以才要大家希望交通部中央全力支持"},{"start":6105.96,"end":6124.239,"text":"包括藍線還有橘線還有臺中的這個屯區的這個捷運有些細節的部分我請我們局長跟您報告細節的部分我是希望說是不是我們第一個中央全力支持這個是不變堅定的一個態度第二個我們期許"},{"start":6125.22,"end":6150.267,"text":"臺中市政府地方政府他該積極有效率的補正意見或者是在這個整個這個中央專家學者給予的意見該修正的時候他也要快他也要有效率但是接著如果地方政府快又有效率了之後他要行文或者是把計畫送到我們中央交通部的時候我也希望中央交通部也要快有效率可以嗎"},{"start":6151.104,"end":6166.145,"text":"是我想我們這個部分會來加速的進行已經送來的都會儘速的再布也會報到院來開相關的會議因為現在台中市只有一條綠線其實這個捷運路網是不夠的只有一條線也不叫做路網啦"},{"start":6166.866,"end":6189.185,"text":"所以他的營運他的營運現在是很淒慘的啦那我們也不能因為他營運的不好而而而忽視他我們更應該去檢討為什麼因為呢就是只有一條不夠我們希望有兩條三條真的成為一個路網他才可以達到真正的一個營運的一個效益嘛那也才能夠造福我"},{"start":6190.006,"end":6199.911,"text":"我說這我的選區超過40萬人口是大台中裡面也是相對人口非常稠密的地區我們到現在還在等啊"},{"start":6200.899,"end":6202.901,"text":"臺中以這樣的人口是確實是有這樣的我們會來支持"},{"start":6225.163,"end":6241.961,"text":"需要第二條第三條我們需要是一個捷運的路網就算等10年15年我們還是希望能夠盡快好不好這個效率很重要接著我就要問最近最近很夯的議題部長Uber Eats跟Foodpanda合併跟你有沒有關係"},{"start":6244.073,"end":6270.523,"text":"這個部分就是其中因為他有部分是雖然是外送是一種電商但是他又以貨運又是以貨運的運輸所以後段的部分其實是我們是主管的角色這正值這個議題這個他本來叫做兩家合併為一家就有這個獨佔跟寡佔甚至有壟斷之嫌疑大家都把焦點聚集在公平會事實上交通部有很大很大的一個管理的機制"},{"start":6271.323,"end":6287.438,"text":"因為外送平台就像部長你講的你了解了他事實上登記叫什麼 汽車貨運業汽車貨運業誰管 交通部管然後我再告訴你下一頁我們現在外送平台送餐有兩件事 第一件事"},{"start":6287.998,"end":6313.427,"text":"送餐現在都用機車所以他們現在為了符合形式上法規的要求所以他登記在汽車運輸業或運業裡面雖然我說真的我問了一般人大家都覺得很納悶很難理解但是呢交通部就是主管機關對不對部長這你承認你剛剛自己知道嘛對不對前面的電商是有電商的主管機關但是後面他又同時"},{"start":6316.648,"end":6322.354,"text":"汽車運輸、汽車貨運業、外送平台、消費者的權益、外送員的權益、小店家的抽層、停權申訴機制、外送費用結構有沒有透明化這個都是這一次合併之後大家所關心的那跟交通部有沒有關係?有,今天要告訴你"},{"start":6339.161,"end":6368.291,"text":"最重要是什麼大眾關心的一般消費者關心的外送費服務費什麼叫做平台費這些什麼費你知道他公不公開透不透明部長你知道嗎現在確實是不是很透明的一個狀況不是很透明那交通部要介入為什麼要介入來汽車貨運業的運價依規定這是你們自己的法規公路法規定的"},{"start":6369.111,"end":6384.133,"text":"非經核准不得調整非經公告不得實施那我問你啊如果以這兩家的外送平台他都登記在汽車貨運業裡面他們現在所有的費率所有的運費有沒有送交通部"},{"start":6386.468,"end":6412.527,"text":"跟這個委員報告一下確實這個按照這個公路法的規定那基本上就是說現行這個婚姻三頁相關的這個運價市長你告訴我嘛外送平台是不是適合適用這個公路法的規定嗎先行他這個就是裡面這個外送的運價的話是要適用這樣子的一個這個規定是要適用喔對阿有沒有送到現在為止有沒有送"},{"start":6413.527,"end":6417.189,"text":"交通部、勞動部還有公平會這個三個部會裡面就這件事情都有他的角色跟責任那你剛剛說的外送平台的這個貨運的部分適用公路法"},{"start":6442.665,"end":6442.926,"text":"來下一頁"},{"start":6472.425,"end":6495.798,"text":"到目前為止不公開不透明這影響到誰?外送員的權益這影響到誰?消費者的權益對不對?市長你同不同意?同意所以現在我們跟勞動部針對裡面的運價就是要讓他這個公開透明那相關這個費率公司的部分我們會來跟勞動部做商量所以最後我就具體要求部長跟市長"},{"start":6496.678,"end":6519.186,"text":"以法規去檢視你現在開始檢視我沒有說你一定要強制怎麼樣你要去檢視那衛送平台的費率這個運費的費率有沒有合理合法合規那他的運費的成本結構審定可不可以透明化我覺得這個很重要接下來要處理的臨時提案就是針對這一點好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":6520.734,"end":6526.987,"text":"好謝謝何清淳委員那我們現在先處理臨時提案本日既有議案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":6532.402,"end":6556.078,"text":"臨時提案一,外送平台改變民眾消費習慣,以成為餐飲零售新常態,有關消費者勞工勞動小店商家權益,停權申訴及外送費率結構透明化等問題,更引發社會討論而兩大,外送平台公示應應登記汽車貨運業,事由交通部監管,股建請交通部依相關法規檢視所。"},{"start":6557.694,"end":6559.454,"text":"請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見我們就召喚通過謝謝"},{"start":6581.281,"end":6590.785,"text":"臨時提案處理完畢,如有委員對上述提案補簽,列入記錄並刊登公報。現在繼續請陳素月委員發言謝謝主席,請主席邀請部長"},{"start":6611.118,"end":6625.125,"text":"部長早安剛剛有聽了部長的施政報告您有對主政交通部的六大施政願景這六大施政願景我們看起來"},{"start":6626.346,"end":6650.243,"text":"四平八穩可是看不出有什麼新意跟特色事實上其實交通政策其實都是延續性的因為這些也都是過去以來甚至是目前也是在進行當中的一個交通的政策跟目標可是就是說當然部長剛上任那大家對你也有一些期待所以我們也希望就是說"},{"start":6650.743,"end":6677.204,"text":"未來在整個交通部的交通政策方面我們可以讓民眾更有感那要怎樣有感那我們也看到就是說前兩任的交通部長就是我們王國才部長跟林家永部長任內他們對於他們施政的一個願景他們有特別強調他們的一個中心思想就是林家永部長他就是建構這個人文交通"},{"start":6681.267,"end":6701.482,"text":"王國財部長特地提到科技交通所以這個都讓大家一個非常深的印象剛剛我們有聽到昭緯在質詢的時候有強調這個不管怎樣子的一個施政願景當然就是以交通安全這個安全跟便利是最重要的一個需求"},{"start":6702.703,"end":6717.094,"text":"那我們看到就是說在王部長任內他也有特別一直在強調的就是說運用這個AI來落實在各類的交通管理或者是擴及到鐵道安全或者是精進道安等等"},{"start":6717.994,"end":6743.44,"text":"這些都讓民眾印象深刻所以我們也希望就是說在這個部分我們部長未來在這個部分也能夠就是讓民眾有感那我想說在這邊也請部長來回覆一下就是說就您剛剛所說的這施政願景之外可不可以再進一步來講一下你的未來在部長任內想要做的"},{"start":6745.801,"end":6761.266,"text":"提供民眾一個安全、便捷、人本、永續的交通運具跟交通環境我想是我們交通部最大的目標跟責任特別是在行的安全的部分"},{"start":6761.966,"end":6779.92,"text":"那我們覺得就剛剛昭偉也有提到我們跟日本確實是相比之下有非常大的進步的改進的空間所以我們會把這個部分怎麼樣降低行人降低整體交通事故死亡率的這個部分我們會列為最優先的目標"},{"start":6780.68,"end":6808.709,"text":"那當然這個部分其實是要中央地方一起合作所以我們也會每週預計在每週召開記者會來公布各縣市的一個在交通安全推動的一個成果跟目前的一個狀況那希望大家一起努力來改善這個部分那另外台鐵的安全還有建構我們國道快速道路等等的這個路網我覺得這個也是我們正在推動的這個目標"},{"start":6812.343,"end":6827.539,"text":"事實上就是說在王部長任內他提倡就是說他一直在推動這個科技交通就是說用AI落實在交通這個管理方面那事實上我覺得這還是有很大的空間還大有可為因為"},{"start":6828.1,"end":6843.375,"text":"其實本席也一再的關心有關就是這個耗制透過這個智慧管理的一個方式就是智慧耗制或者是路段人流流量的一個管控等等還有入口安全管控等等"},{"start":6843.755,"end":6843.995,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6862.773,"end":6877.841,"text":"﹚"},{"start":6877.921,"end":6892.787,"text":"AI的運用我想目前也都很重視那就像我們高速公路紮道移控現在就把ETC的大數車流的大數據有列入這個整個智慧型做最佳化的秒數的控制的運算"},{"start":6893.567,"end":6910.835,"text":"那其他剛剛委員建議的這個有些偏向路口怎麼樣這個這個透過AI等等方式來降低降低這個這個路口的一些管制的部分我們這個我們也來思考那另外像臺鐵對義務入侵他也有一些AI辨識的這個系統那現在也經過在測試的這個階段"},{"start":6915.442,"end":6928.735,"text":"對,因為我們交通部2050年就是希望達到這個交通零死亡這樣子的目標,我覺得這是真的是一個很大的一個挑戰,所以我想就是說在這整個就是說朝著這個目標邁進的這個過程,我想"},{"start":6931.637,"end":6949.616,"text":"每一個階段都非常重要那再來就是針對部長提到的這六大市政願景裡面有關推動台灣觀光亮點那部長提到說要帶動兆元產業這個倒是本席蠻好奇的你要怎樣來做可以來帶動這個觀光產業的兆元產業"},{"start":6954.442,"end":6980.067,"text":"這個部分我想分兩個部分一個就是怎麼樣讓國際的觀光客能夠增加來台而且提升他的這個消費的量那另外一個就是國旅怎麼樣來促進所以我們那個兆元產業的目標是希望在2028年來達成那其中國際觀光客可以要到1400萬那國旅的部分可以到2.2億人次"},{"start":6982.378,"end":6982.618,"text":"國際行銷五路啟開"},{"start":7001.811,"end":7029.6,"text":"社群平台、戶外廣告、數位廣告或者是海外旅展、海外推廣會可是事實上感覺上就是效果有限那我們看到就是說最近我們國內有兩個人物就是說對整個這個觀光真的是無形中就有這個帶動這樣子的一個行銷的一個效果一個就是這個黃仁勳這個科技業的這個商人士"},{"start":7030.14,"end":7051.298,"text":"好非常傑出的一個科技業的老闆他這樣子到這個夜市消費真的無形中就帶動了這個人潮那另外就是我們的蕭美琴副總統他對花蓮的一個觀光產業的一個行銷也帶動了這個日橋去做這個深度的一個旅遊所以在這邊我們也是希望就是說未來在"},{"start":7052.739,"end":7071.133,"text":"行銷的部分我們是不是可以借力使力然後也精準的投放這個客群包括透過戲劇拍攝的行銷這個過去本席也有提過這部分是不是可以請部長說明一下這個部分我是不是請署長跟您報告一下"},{"start":7073.237,"end":7089.327,"text":"對這個針對委員這個部分我們會持續了以這兩個畫面來看的話我們也請這個黃仁勳在我們這個在美國我們臺灣日的時候來開球對那麼我們也希望有做安排了"},{"start":7090.227,"end":7106.975,"text":"對,然後我們也希望跟航空業擴大跟航空業的合作那麼尤其是有一些比較有知名度的那些代言人我們也是持續那也會有最新的所以我們才有3.0的台灣品牌用最新的方式來做行銷"},{"start":7108.855,"end":7113.037,"text":"觀光人次提升提醒建議觀光拼人次之外拼消費深度旅遊非常重要"},{"start":7125.282,"end":7125.302,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":7148.767,"end":7155.933,"text":"陳樹越委員發言完畢現在請葉元之委員發言葉委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘請李孟硬部長"},{"start":7183.297,"end":7205.428,"text":"部長好,我們板橋準備要規劃一個捷運,泰板輕軌,不知道部長熟悉這個捷運嗎?有規劃嗎?知道,它是五泰輕軌延伸到板橋那是一條線,所以我們現在是希望說這條線可以同時施工,可以發揮它比較大的效益所以我今天是要針對進度來關心一下"},{"start":7207.469,"end":7227.278,"text":"那去年的9月的時候前交通部長王國才有到我們板橋參加信賴台灣的說明會那時候他就說這條捷運一定要蓋而且他還特別提到說這個捷運除了現在的規劃之外還要蓋一個社後支線這我們都支持但現在很奇怪"},{"start":7228.118,"end":7249.468,"text":"這王國才來這邊宣布在選前宣布說要支持這個捷運但是新北市政府提的可行性評估到交通部就一直被退那現在已經是5月13號第三次的提報那我是希望說我不知道部長到底卡在哪裡你們前交通部長王國才都說一定要蓋甚至還說要做支線"},{"start":7250.799,"end":7250.939,"text":"主席"},{"start":7275.686,"end":7302.202,"text":"那個審查階段審查委員的意見我想我是不是請局長跟你們報告一下可以啦要針對他的意見來審查委員跟部長不同調跟前部長雖然已經下台了啦但是現在他又不是說今年五月才送嘛五月是第三次送啦前面已經送兩次了啦那為什麼委員會跟部長不同調所以部長可以出去隨便亂講話"},{"start":7304.503,"end":7305.084,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":7321.488,"end":7327.936,"text":"其實過去在很多的捷運案審查裡面都會有類似的問題那我們會協助就是有關運量預測經濟效益跟財務上面的整個計畫未來的可行的這樣的一個部分"},{"start":7336.727,"end":7355.854,"text":"那審查的過程當中因為相關的審議機關非常多包括國發會工程會這我都知道不用一直重複我現在的重點是說你們說已經說部長已經承諾說要蓋支線了嘛那主線為什麼要一直卡那你說要效益不好意思因為你也沒有住在我們那邊"},{"start":7356.934,"end":7375.806,"text":"這個我要跟局長報告我們其實地方都還蠻需要的因為他現在當然很多都市計畫同步在準備要推嘛所以你這個捷運太阪輕軌你有沒有一個預期就是說假設啦肯定性評估過了綜合規劃然後蓋你有沒有一個預計說什麼時候要完工"},{"start":7376.331,"end":7389.371,"text":"因為部長都來承諾了嘛支線了嘛所以你們部長應該不會亂講話吧你們政務官應該不會亂講話吧到我們地方騙我們選民應該不會嘛那他當時在講這個支線的時候他那時候預期什麼時候會蓋什麼時候要完工"},{"start":7391.221,"end":7418.037,"text":"我目前的資料是沒有掌握到沒有掌握6年6年就是合定之後6年半的那是哪一年?什麼時候要合定?所以是什麼時候要合定?合定的期程當然有一定的程序對啦我知道可不可以快一點?可不可以快一點?今年第三次送了5月13號送的可不可以我現在掌握的狀況是你們又發給各單位去表達意見這又沒完沒了了你也可以開專案會議嘛"},{"start":7419.198,"end":7447.024,"text":"就請大家來討論嘛不要一直公文往來啦公文往來就是最拖時間的好不好拜託一下這一條是你們部長承諾我們地方也很想要然後他因為他可以串接很多不同的捷運線像機場捷運像那個板南線環狀線海鐵福州站都有串聯所以你不能只看這條線的周邊效應應該要看整體整體的規劃還有相關都市計畫的配合這個不知道能不能做到然後另外一個點是因為"},{"start":7448.044,"end":7477.198,"text":"他剛剛局長還有部長有講他這武泰輕軌接泰坂輕軌那現在武泰的已經進行到綜合規劃了嘛那這兩條線如果差太多的話沒有辦法一起施工我們是希望說看看能不能一起施工啦拚拚看啦可不可以武泰輕軌是陳建仁院長他有去現場去宣布那麼我想往後往板橋延伸這個部分我們認為部長回來宣布嘛你不能說因為部長比較小他講的話就不算話"},{"start":7477.958,"end":7495.931,"text":"延伸的部分我想這個部分不是延伸對不起我剛剛不是延伸他五太院長宣布太阪是現在在可行性評估然後部長有來說要在太阪蓋一個社後支線那你有支線一定要有主線嘛所以你主線一定是評估過後可以OK部長才會宣布嘛"},{"start":7496.411,"end":7496.711,"text":"主持人蔡總統"},{"start":7510.806,"end":7512.167,"text":"現在卡在說因為工程造價增加"},{"start":7526.34,"end":7526.36,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":7555.485,"end":7557.488,"text":"業務委員發言完畢我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7590.911,"end":7602.476,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7608.5,"end":7609.44,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7632.245,"end":7633.366,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7653.588,"end":7658.591,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7683.211,"end":7683.654,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7691.041,"end":7691.741,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7718.106,"end":7719.428,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7739.168,"end":7739.408,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7772.618,"end":7773.138,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7809.588,"end":7809.808,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7828.043,"end":7828.644,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7853.216,"end":7853.536,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7869.862,"end":7870.402,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7900.381,"end":7904.885,"text":"這部分報告相關的過程在哪裏?也許在這裏,還有其他事項嗎?還有其他事項嗎?還有其他事項嗎?"},{"start":7917.919,"end":7919.74,"text":"上次的手扶機尷尬"},{"start":7944.509,"end":7945.069,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7974.394,"end":7990.811,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7991.878,"end":7992.119,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8011.886,"end":8016.129,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8045.719,"end":8045.739,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":8055.483,"end":8056.003,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8083.281,"end":8083.681,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8118.991,"end":8119.973,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8129.553,"end":8130.294,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8155.241,"end":8155.481,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8178.318,"end":8178.859,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8202.817,"end":8205.218,"text":"發言人：邀請交通部部長李孟諺列席報告"},{"start":8229.108,"end":8229.788,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8265.721,"end":8285.255,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8299.184,"end":8319.726,"text":"繼續開會,現在請陳雪生召委發言謝謝我們崑澤召委,請交通部長、海港局長、民航局長、防震師長請點到名的官員上台"},{"start":8327.349,"end":8352.725,"text":"部長早安,上次部長拜會我,第一次見面留下非常好的印象,部長非常的客氣謙虛歡迎你到交通部來服務,替我們民眾,我們民眾之福我有一個問題,民國80年以前戰略任務還沒解除"},{"start":8354.028,"end":8382.904,"text":"我們台灣到馬祖的交通是靠什麼?靠軍艦那交通是由國防部在負責後來馬祖陸續引進了船隻然後還有空中交通建一個機場然後馬祖才有空中的飛行到目前為止我們航港局的部分台北港到福澳港台北港到福澳港"},{"start":8384.575,"end":8410.652,"text":"這個用油補貼,用油補貼,油來補貼,局長是嗎?南北竿我們小山東航線到大陸因為一定虧損,人員不夠船隻比較大,油耗損比較多,所以虧損補貼一年大概虧損一兩千萬,這都有航空女生補貼還有基隆港到馬祖"},{"start":8411.994,"end":8435.877,"text":"基隆港到馬祖因為那個船來五千噸的,帶人也不見得那麼多,這個虧損補貼也是由航港局負責我們透過一個聯江行業來補貼我現在講到空中的航線,松山機場到北竿以前這是國內第二家航空公司進入以後,松山機場到北竿"},{"start":8437.365,"end":8456.031,"text":"沒有人願意去,為什麼?虧損,所以沒有人願意飛那現在我們提高雄航線到馬祖,我一直提提了快兩年了一直找民航局、航港局、觀光局一直談,談不下來我甚至到總諮詢向院長諮詢,到現在還無解"},{"start":8462.352,"end":8487.828,"text":"那高雄的馬祖原來空中航線是有的高雄跟南竿的航線是利隆航空在飛那93年的10月12號開航那麼高雄航線初期是週二、二、四、六每天飛一班,禮拜二、禮拜四、禮拜六每天飛一班那民國94年4月1號停航"},{"start":8490.612,"end":8506.165,"text":"停航的原因是怎麼?虧損然後用油量,因為航程比較遠我們在馬祖的機場沒辦法加油所以減重飛行,然後航程又比較遠那時候票價是4000多塊我現在要問一下這個部長"},{"start":8513.106,"end":8526.171,"text":"我一直要求民航局能夠補助一千萬來做高雄跟馬祖空中的航線我想國內的交通,既然在馬祖地區蓋了兩座機場,一個南竿機場一個北竿機場"},{"start":8528.462,"end":8554.354,"text":"那民航局要負起這個責任來,是不是?要負起這個責任來那民航局擔心什麼?擔心援引效應澎湖馬工機場,只有一個機場,他怕援引效應也是澎湖也來各路的機場也要飛澎湖,怕援引效應所以他建議由觀光署,觀光署署長也請上來好不好"},{"start":8555.236,"end":8580.791,"text":"他建議由觀光署來補助那麼初期希望用包機的方式辦理那民航局建議以包機的方式辦理呢?那麼縣長、議長還有本席也連累的拜訪了民航局、拜訪了立龍航空、拜訪了華信航空那現在比較有意願的是誰?華信航空因為華信航空現在目前只有飛北竿"},{"start":8582.826,"end":8609.14,"text":"北竿跟南竿都有飛北竿沒有飛南竿有飛那華信航空以包機的方式來回的成本我們初步的探討一趟來回要五十七萬塊那五十七萬塊我們倒回來算這個票價單程的票價大概一張是四千九百多塊錢四千九百多塊錢的話"},{"start":8610.802,"end":8621.08,"text":"那你說高雄人到馬祖,馬祖人到高雄他的意願就很低啦那現在高雄那邊我們馬祖軍中的子弟大概佔了一半"},{"start":8623.234,"end":8641.681,"text":"所以老百姓聲音還小,軍方的聲音還更大,軍方那些我們從軍的子弟他要回高雄去,先要在松山機場落或是基隆碼頭的港口落,落了以後還要再打高鐵或是再轉機回高雄"},{"start":8643.479,"end":8667.618,"text":"我想這個對在前線服役的子弟也不公平另外就是高雄很多的鄉親要希望到馬祖來觀光,他們走哪一條線?他們高雄先到金門去,金門到廈門,廈門到福州,福州到馬祖用這種方式來,因為馬祖在觀光季的時候一票難求所以我想交通部隊離島偏鄉"},{"start":8669.861,"end":8673.815,"text":"有行的便利的義務跟責任,部長你覺得勒?"},{"start":8675.552,"end":8699.69,"text":"我們確實是有讓大家在交通上能夠有享有一樣的權利我們臺北人到宜蘭去都可以打個雪山隧道最近我們傅坤吉總召也說東西部也要串通國道5號、國道6號、高鐵、快速道路他也提出來,為什麼?因為老百姓緊急需要"},{"start":8701.021,"end":8723.609,"text":"那現在就是說,我們交通部所做的每一件事情,應該不是以盈利為目的吧?是以盈利事業為目的嗎?不是,不是為了賺錢嘛,是不是?你要把這個血路打通、打開,這才是我們交通部主政之道所以部長,我曾經這個議題在總諮詢對院長也提出來,也請院長幫忙"},{"start":8726.157,"end":8752.264,"text":"我拜託部長,是不是能夠召集觀光署、民航局、跨局處的會議請你主持一下因為已經兩年了,我想從民航作業基金來補助因為航港局有類似的慣例,他們從航港作業基金去處理這方面的事情民航局也希望能夠從這方面處理,但是民航局怕援引效應,怕澎湖金門跟進"},{"start":8753.721,"end":8773.847,"text":"根據就根據,有什麼關係?根據就根據,也給他一千萬。我想交通部七八千億的總預算,不在乎那麼一點錢。所以我拜託部長這一方面能不能幫忙一下,你也可以請明航局長說明一下好不好?何局長說明一下"},{"start":8775.578,"end":8790.902,"text":"因為我們要請觀光局觀光署來補助這個東西跟委員報告確實就是說照顧離島居民行的權利這個是我們不應該民航局也應該來責無旁貸那不過因為這一條航線或者是整個在補貼的虧損的機制上"},{"start":8793.143,"end":8794.124,"text":"臺中南竿也有營運"},{"start":8809.411,"end":8811.352,"text":"虧本生意沒有人做的航空公司也一樣雖然"},{"start":8840.865,"end":8855.67,"text":"雖然華信是交通部所屬的股份我們佔比比較多問題是人家還是以盈利為目的有錢才去沒錢賺他跑去做這個生意他要對股東大會要對董事會負責"},{"start":8857.14,"end":8879.926,"text":"對,所以跟委員報告,就是剛剛有提到,這個部分我們才會說,如果促進高雄跟這個馬祖之間,如果除了一些基本的需求,還有一些觀光的需要,那是不是因為當初也有委員有垂詢的時候,部理會來召開跨局署的會議?我想不管怎麼處理,部長"},{"start":8882.113,"end":8901.801,"text":"我今天拜託部長,你剛剛才上任,我們都留下一個很好,彼此都留下一個很好的印象我希望你能夠在部裡面重視這件事情,航港局你對馬祖地區很多虧損的東西你都補貼了民航局你也一樣,從馬祖飛台北"},{"start":8903.164,"end":8930.759,"text":"這裡面虧損的事情你交通部當然要負起責任來你要負責把馬祖的老百姓跟居民送到台灣來把台灣的居民再送回去返鄉或是尤其現在觀光力線這觀光客把他送到那邊去這都非常重要的你們都曉得花蓮現在住宿一個晚上民宿補助他一千塊為什麼?因為地震嘛是不是?那所以這個行的便利跟責任你們要扛起來嘛你不能因為說"},{"start":8932.13,"end":8954.048,"text":"每個局每個處都有他本位主義,他在想這個問題,那這樣這個事情就不要做了,是不是就開花了?是不是?部長你說明一下好不好?我想這個部分我們會再邀集相關的局處,另外甚至是跨部會包括國防部大家一起來我已經受不了了,已經兩年了,部長"},{"start":8955.709,"end":8971.334,"text":"我希望你一個月以內好不好,我也不要你說一兩個禮拜啊,一個月以內希望部長能夠回答我這個問題好不好你怎麼解決,你不管觀光署也好,民航局也好,我都沒意見,我都沒意見,但是你把這問題幫我解決,可以不可以?"},{"start":8971.974,"end":8992.987,"text":"是,我們來尋找看怎麼樣有一個最佳化的解決的方案另外的港港局,我們台中那個港警,港警所破破爛爛,破爛不堪我拜託葉局長這邊能夠給港務公司一點錢,給他兩千萬,幫他這個做一個維修好不好,做個小修,可以嗎?局長"},{"start":8995.785,"end":9024.466,"text":"包委員,因為有關港警廳舍的維修,在行政院跟交通部有一個協助的原則我想我下禮拜五已經訂好一個會議時間,邀請相關單位來做一個協商那我們會盡量來做協助,在院跟處的原則下那個國防署周市長拜託好不好你不要何局長推到你那邊去,你那邊又說你這裡又不能補助馬祖那你這樣弄的話,讓我們新任的部長"},{"start":9027.207,"end":9041.348,"text":"合作無間沒錯,你不要讓我們新任的部長很為難好不好,讓他部長剛剛才上任有點坐不下去的感覺好不好,希望你們兩位協調一下好不好馬祖飛高雄的航線拜託"},{"start":9042.429,"end":9068.459,"text":"部長一個月給我答覆好不好因為不能再拖了這個準備因為飛機要航空公司還有準備的時間你現在如果承諾他的話他起碼要十月份才能夠飛航他有地面還有空中的準備工作部長好不好我們來看怎麼樣找到一個具有橫平性怎麼找你去找因為所有的權力都抓在你的手上好不好那個謝謝召委謝謝"},{"start":9071.456,"end":9095.89,"text":"陳雪生委員發言完畢現在請邱若驊委員發言主席好謝謝主席主席有請李部長還有民航局何局長還有我們桃園國際機場公司的楊董事長請楊董事長"},{"start":9105.749,"end":9128.033,"text":"國營好部長好局長好還有董事長好那我們今天也是同樣的先來看我們的航空運輸那今年0303我們的淘機跑道碎修導致嚴重的塞機事件當時交通部就提出相關的檢討說要繼續教訓然後不要大意加強應變還有協調我想先請教部長局長我們桃園行情的slogan是什麼"},{"start":9131.851,"end":9154.156,"text":"航行的slogan桃園航行有口皆北地勤服務世界一流可是根據民航局提供的說明資料桃行公司113年違規的事件今年1月到4月就有35件那5月份有事件那其中一件還是地安事件民航局是等到5月1號的時候航機拖車漏油事件還有發生35起違規才下令檢討嗎"},{"start":9159.319,"end":9185.141,"text":"我想跟委員報告在這個整個機場的地勤管理其實是一個三級制逃勤本身要自我管理那當然他發生的這一些超限或者是事件非常多那這個部分個案來講逃機這邊有對他做一些相關的處理如果他比如說他有之前有一個案件他有去撞到他會去把他的若是小客那個拖車的駕駛他會去做一些處理個案都有處理"},{"start":9185.982,"end":9210.511,"text":"那在5月份的時候發生這個航機拖油的這個漏油的事件那這個部分我們有請他提出檢討報告然後相關的逃勤來講他也做了相關的一些改善措施那可是根據這個期間所發生的一些譬如說他有一些超速或超限的這一些不當的部分這部分我們會再要求逃勤這邊來再做改善這個是第一個部分"},{"start":9210.911,"end":9235.991,"text":"那第二部分就是說在航空站經營人的這個部分逃機的部分他也可以再加強每一天的一些督察的等於是外機的動作那這個部分我們會來這個強力要求其實像這些事故都已經影響到乘客的權益了像還有那個借泊車把把旅客載到錯誤的班級那這樣子常常會畫的除包如果沒有揭露的話"},{"start":9237.065,"end":9262.159,"text":"那現在針對這些35起的違規事件有沒有做出懲處相關懲處個案的部分是在這個淘機做處理人員的訓練等等比如說他在吊扣他的一些駕照的部分是淘機在做處理那至於是不是整個全面性的一個檢討的部分這部分我們會再另外要求有沒有檢討地勤作業的SOP管理機制"},{"start":9263.43,"end":9281.473,"text":"他的SOP其實基本上他每發生一個案件他就應該要去做檢討那這個部分我們會再來細部再來看他所有的SOP的部分淘汰的部分基本上他要先提出來那淘汰的部分會做調查那這個是一個三級監理的概念"},{"start":9282.108,"end":9282.348,"text":"請董事長說明"},{"start":9301.127,"end":9317.248,"text":"再簡單補充說明一下在機場公司的部分事實上我們現在已經統計了今年1月到5月的發生的類似的地形事故的次數那我們也會把這些次數現在的處理方式要做一些強化"},{"start":9317.788,"end":9341.364,"text":"那剛剛提到的這個我們的處理事實上在這5個月期間我們發現的次數裡面嚴重的部分都採取了最嚴重的調照的處分所以這部分事實上是已經在執行當中那稽查的頻率我們現在準備要再提高就是說稽查的次數要再增加那跟這些公司的安全管理的會議我們要求提高層級來參加強化我們的管理措施"},{"start":9342.249,"end":9367.181,"text":"再請董事長督促並作出改善請教部長我們看到我們地方的交通建設陶園市政府現在正在大力協助超維還有大訓科技在本席的選區桃園八德擴大投資案那桃園具有AI的生態系還有地理位置土地還有人才物流中心還有國際機場的相關優勢那包含賴清德總統也提出的陶珠苗大溪谷計畫那本席以回答為例"},{"start":9370.462,"end":9381.848,"text":"以回答為例,在台灣蓋AI超級電腦中心,在設研發中心,還有並規劃設立總部。請問部長,針對國際大廠投資案,交通是不是一個重要的因素?如果交通建設不能如質如期的完工,是否會影響到地方的產業發展?"},{"start":9391.798,"end":9392.619,"text":"臺灣巴德的交通問題"},{"start":9423.3,"end":9439.952,"text":"這個部分我們來跟行政院秘書長、國民秘書長這邊請他來協助看怎麼樣因為國會通過他要報到院院的交還處要簽報給院長那我們再請院裡面來協助這個部分讓他可以盡速的來核定"},{"start":9440.843,"end":9467.671,"text":"那在反警部長那期待好消息那我們還有有關我們桃園地方的交通建設國道3號增設巴德交流道工程還有國道2號增設中路交流道還有桃園捷運綠線延伸至大溪目前的進度如何綠線延伸到大溪目前正由市政府在做在做這個可行性的評估的這個這個這個評估報告那報告上來我們會來協助他們進速的來審議"},{"start":9471.262,"end":9472.283,"text":"目前的進度"},{"start":9483.909,"end":9509.062,"text":"跟委員報告我們政策巴德的工程化已經核定了那因為巴德交流道的話他的用地是要給市政府這邊他會市政府這邊一併的所以我們會跟他共同配合來做那一併辦理新版事業計畫的那個用地徵收那中路交流道的話他因為他有一段的話有一段的話也是一樣涉及到用路用地的部分所以這部分的話所以目前都還在市政府這邊要"},{"start":9511.663,"end":9538.082,"text":"是一起一起一起我們都會跟他一起密切的配合來來來做的進度那計劃都已經合定了OK好謝謝您的說明那部長那地方產業已經比過去還要來得快許多那以巴德和大溪為例那目前正在規劃巴德有新豐科技園區還有大溪的科技園區喔也是我們正在積極就是台商回流的重要的一點之一那希望部長不要讓交通的問題成為爭取投資案還有產業發展不利的因素"},{"start":9538.502,"end":9554.182,"text":"我想我這幾年在中央在這個桃園的包括交流道的建設我這邊評估至少大概就有6處的交流道正在建設施工中所以政府對桃園的這個交通的改善的努力可以說是不遺餘力"},{"start":9555.301,"end":9570.551,"text":"最後一個問題那國人都很關心的新任交通安全那過去政府和交通部也是積極想要撕掉台灣的新任第一的標籤那今年第一屆新任死亡數不降反升事故有九萬七千多件那這邊可不可以做說明"},{"start":9572.447,"end":9589.591,"text":"整體的死亡率是下降少了大概39個人大概有5%的這個下降但是行人確實是有增加在今年1到3月那這個部分我們會從幾個面向包括設施的改善這個行人安全的宣導駕駛的這個訓練"},{"start":9594.632,"end":9619.971,"text":"在教育等等那這幾個領域來加強我們希望以每年5%的目標來降低是我們也知道交通部很努力提升行人路權有提出6項的行動方案那希望交通部可以持續輔助我們地方政府落實行人的安全還有道路工程的改善有好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝邱若驊委員發言完畢現在請徐沐葵委員發言"},{"start":9632.364,"end":9633.467,"text":"謝謝主席,有請李部長請李部長"},{"start":9641.078,"end":9669.434,"text":"委員好部長好部長首先本席要感謝本席在追隨我們潘前縣長跟我們現在周縣長在屏東縣政府務的時候您當時是擔任秘書長那也協助了很多我們屏東的一些重要建設那所以本席相信這個部長未來這個對於屏東的交通建設我想先請教部長對未來屏東我們包含高鐵高捷"},{"start":9670.054,"end":9670.374,"text":"這點本行要拜託部長"},{"start":9685.761,"end":9712.78,"text":"本席這邊包容我們的縣長也好我們的潘秘書長也好我們共同的期的就是我們屏東的交通是我們整個產業發展也好教育文化還有我們整個經濟發展的重要的一個任督二脈那我們也期待部長不只是一個全方位的部長更是一個有行動效率的部長能夠把所有的這個我們相關單位針對這幾項交通建設的一個速度能夠加快來進行"},{"start":9713.721,"end":9742.026,"text":"那就針對幾項業務上請部長這邊多幫忙第一個就是我們高屏二塊是我們串接高雄跟屏東產業很重要的一個狼帶但是我們環境部在11號進行一個環評審查的時候我們的環委認為這個案子要經過高屏期施工可能會影響到所謂的一個飲用水源但是本席很納悶的是我們的果山已經有通過我們的高屏期這個"},{"start":9745.327,"end":9770.523,"text":"當時在試作的時候也沒有問題那為什麼會出現這個狀況那交通部門如何來解決6月11號當天我看到這個新聞就是說在環評他有先請應該不叫推薦他是叫補充資料那我有親自打給這個環境部的主持的這個處長那麼他表示這個大概都是一般性的問題"},{"start":9771.523,"end":9791.864,"text":"所以只要再補充文件應該就可以來但是以媒體看起來這個我們的防衛講得很嚴重說得很嚴重就是說這是普通大概都不會第一次就過一定會需要再補件補說明另外他特別有提醒就是在靠近那個"},{"start":9793.065,"end":9808.341,"text":"高雄跟屏東交界處有一些被徵收可能將來路線經過被徵收的民眾他有一些陳情的意見那這些陳情意見也在補件的時候要做適當的處理那我是不是請局長也再跟您報告比較詳細的部分"},{"start":9809.882,"end":9826.2,"text":"局長稍等一下我先提出另外一個質疑就是因為我們的環委有提到說高屏22塊跟高鐵南延屏東的路線幾乎平行那這樣子的一個影響會不會涉及到後續我們這個高鐵路線的進行這部分是一併來做說明"},{"start":9829.914,"end":9857.157,"text":"這個部分我的了解是這樣就是說因為兩個共構路廊就前段前段有一段是共構路廊那所以他的施工的範圍會占用這個平面道路稍微比較大一點那在環評的時候委員有提出說會不會對當地的平面道路的交通會不會產生影響那希望主辦單位再補充一些這個這個詳細的資料那讓委員在下次審的時候可以"},{"start":9858.037,"end":9883.915,"text":"可以瞭解這個相關的應用措施都有做那個局長要不要好那我們請局長來說明一下各位報告高屏二塊在這個6月11號是這個環境部專案小組第一次的一個審查會那剛剛所提到的像比如說這一個飲用水還有這個取水的這個部分其實在當初路線的時候其實已經有做相關的一個迴避了"},{"start":9884.395,"end":9902.947,"text":"那另外就是說因為跟高鐵的這個延伸確實是只有就是說前面有一小段共構不過我們在整個這個高屏二塊在這個環屏的這個部分其實還是先走我們相關的程序也都有向委員說明就是說比如對地方交通的一個衝擊跟交違的一個處理"},{"start":9904.808,"end":9930.741,"text":"這個要拜託部長跟局長因為這個對我們屏東的未來的建設非常的重要我們希望能夠加快速度那就麻煩部長跟局長這邊就費心我們也很期待說這一條快速道路能夠在114年的1月相關的計畫環評還有相關計畫核定那開始進行設計114年就是明年好謝謝那另外針對那個觀光部分我們再請一下周處長"},{"start":9938.071,"end":9949.52,"text":"部長所長我想0403花蓮地震之後當然觀光署有提出一個振興的一個方案希望能夠來幫忙花蓮的觀光業者那預計投入了11的經費那目前的成效如何"},{"start":9950.835,"end":9970.225,"text":"對我們這次主要還是花蓮市從6月1號開始那麼看起來這個在端午節這個假期因為跟去年比的話去年是4天那這一次是3天那在花蓮縣這個部分的住房率確實也不太理想是"},{"start":9972.726,"end":9984.233,"text":"本期還是要提醒就是說我們的振興觀光不能只用單點思考尤其你說你要到花東一定要經過屏東跟宜蘭你只有補助花東 屏東跟宜蘭都沒有補助人家要怎麼帶進來"},{"start":9989.731,"end":10010.033,"text":"對 這個應該講分兩個部分談啦我跟委員報告一下我們在推南彎就是希望把這個雲加這個我們講說南部南台灣這個部分啦能夠帶動那當然雙東的部分也是在我們來講是台灣最南邊所以這個台東跟屏東本來就是我們一個重點是"},{"start":10011.294,"end":10031.69,"text":"這個部長這個本席還是要提醒就是說這個過去以來當然我們恆春半島恆春的觀光跟小琉球是我們很重要的一個觀光狼帶那目前看起來這個恆春半島的觀光產業也受到很大的影響甚至連這一次我們的這個訂房率這個端午節的訂房率也不盡理想"},{"start":10032.31,"end":10055.467,"text":"那大鵬灣看起來目前我們不管是觀光署還是大鵬灣管理處只著重在小琉球那小琉球其實你們不用行銷齁人客就很多啦一個客幕啦齁那尤其我們看到更遺憾的是這個大鵬灣的發展上面齁我們著重在小琉球之外但是我們整個大鵬灣的共同管溝到目前為止都還沒有做"},{"start":10056.367,"end":10056.508,"text":"是﹖好﹖"},{"start":10070.848,"end":10091.942,"text":"所以我們會來加速大鵬灣相關的這個觀光客的引入好另外我想馬上就是七月份就是暑假來臨那針對整個我們這個屏東縣的這個觀光的一個補助的一個行程還是一些套裝的一個配套措施當然我知道像我們現在跟高鐵有做一些的結合"},{"start":10092.742,"end":10121.57,"text":"還有跟臺鐵做一些結論但是本席認為不夠啦我們應該整體來思考我們有國家公園有有這個風景區管理處有很多的不一樣客家的原民的很多的諸多的一個資源觀光署應該站在一個更高的一個位階整個來思考一下針對我們後續這個下半年怎麼樣針對屏東的一個觀光補助跟套裝的形成是不是可以研議在6月底之前給本席一個完整的一個方案署長這個部分有沒有問題"},{"start":10125.39,"end":10151.02,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個屏東跟台東本來就是我們輔導的一個重點所以這個部分我們會在委員要求之下我們6月底會提一個報告給你蘇長有輔導又有成效啦不是只有帳面上都看不到的東西是輔導有用沒用啦那個啦不是因為他比較不過屏東縣政府也很努力啦我們跟屏東縣政府也很多合作的項目"},{"start":10152.12,"end":10178.854,"text":"對啦,但是縣政府財源有限,還是要靠我們部長跟署長裡面多幫忙啊讓我們一些公共活動能夠再大力推展一下有跟委員報告這次屏東在端午節住房率大概有55%那確實是還有提升的空間不過55%,大家根本都老百姓啊,55%部長、署長再拜託一下我們再努力跟縣政府這邊我們再來合作看怎麼樣針對暑假能夠再強化一下好不好好,謝謝"},{"start":10182.852,"end":10199.247,"text":"好謝謝徐烏奎委員．發言完畢現在請徐志傑委員發言好謝謝主席我們請部長請部長"},{"start":10207.6,"end":10231.097,"text":"我們現在TPAS推動還不錯所以部長有說考慮年底要推出新的TPAS的方案TPAS事實上我們先給交通部鼓勵就是從111年交通部提出通勤優惠票的概念"},{"start":10232.017,"end":10254.555,"text":"那111年1月14陣那時候交通委員會到鳳山考察那我也要求部長當時的部長能夠做高雄的TPAS那當時他也有答應那一直到現在事實上我們看他的成果的確還不錯所以TPAS這個部分我們交通部打算推出新的方案"},{"start":10255.478,"end":10267.525,"text":"那我是想再提供一個新的概念就是說我們TPAS是以通勤為主嘛對不對是鼓勵比較通勤但是觀光是不是應該一併考量"},{"start":10268.57,"end":10286.841,"text":"對,所以這次年底打算推的一個新型態的T-Pass就有考慮有跟觀光做連結譬如說來觀光的人他也許可以買一週或是10日票10日的T-Pass叫台灣Pass對,就是台灣好玩卡"},{"start":10288.762,"end":10313.101,"text":"臺灣PASS的話臺灣好玩卡已經轉型了希望能夠從城市卡變成一個臺灣PASS的話它算是是一個都會的一個transit的PASS不大一樣所以你再趕快跟部長報告一下就是說好玩卡我先弄一個影片給部長跟署長看一下他想結合但是有點困難"},{"start":10317.891,"end":10337.121,"text":"這個是你可以看他們好玩卡一開始聲音那個時間先暫停謝謝重新放一次重新放一次時間先暫停沒關係時間先暫停從一開始"},{"start":10343.669,"end":10344.049,"text":"周游卡"},{"start":10371.235,"end":10372.336,"text":"你看都有周遊券"},{"start":10412.601,"end":10427.526,"text":"好所以那個部長有沒有買過桌遊券我看這個影片很想去因為你都在工作啦所以我們的官員很多都是太忙於工作但是不知道怎麼去玩"},{"start":10428.444,"end":10433.761,"text":"那現在那個自由行的現在很多人到處玩都去買周遊券"},{"start":10434.901,"end":10459.263,"text":"所以要讓特地讓部長跟署長看一下人家日本大阪是怎麼推周又見的我們可以看現在我們的成績啦你可以看到那個TPAS的銷售量在113年5月一個月就有67萬張那北北機好玩卡112年最高是79萬一年一年不是一個月他這是剛剛TPAS是一個月60幾萬這個是一年80萬"},{"start":10462.265,"end":10490.884,"text":"高雄好玩卡事實上105年最高是3.5今年到7月為今年112年7月那個時候差不多是一彩9千套所以那個數目字差很多那也就是說我們在推這個好玩卡的時候希望公安署可以要求可以重視你可以看到我去年前年曾經質詢過就是好玩卡官網臺中好玩卡官網結果連到中國賭博網站"},{"start":10493.186,"end":10518.028,"text":"當時事業已經有改善但是你現在看到我們高雄好玩卡你把它點進去這個點進去以後發現裡面還是一片空白所以也就是說在我們整個交通部跟公共事務在注重這個好玩卡的部分重視度不夠那我要特別提醒就是說這個周遊卡你看剛剛日本大阪的時候我們看大阪那一張"},{"start":10519.724,"end":10545.532,"text":"大阪兩天週遊券可以到47處免費景點他們兩天就是930塊很便宜所以很多人去都只會票價我只要買個來回機票花1萬塊左右我那邊住宿一個晚上也不過最多2000塊那我在那邊再花兩天930塊可以玩遍所有的景點這個你看是不是比較有吸引力可以吸引外國國安可以去"},{"start":10547.011,"end":10570.492,"text":"那台灣應該是用這樣子的角度就是好玩嘛因為我們都注重經濟繁榮那觀光其實有個概念叫做好玩play啦要讓人家怎麼去玩那來高雄怎麼玩來台北怎麼玩來台灣怎麼玩所以現在剛剛署長也提到說要做這個台灣pass是有結合觀光景點嘛對不對"},{"start":10573.066,"end":10592.061,"text":"我們跟好行的景點做串接是但是剛剛委員報告一下就是必須還是有些要市政府來幫忙當然當然對所以北北京那個我跟你們簡單報告一下像日本周遊圈這個是現在全世界推最好的是大阪"},{"start":10593.042,"end":10613.076,"text":"那你看韓國首爾人家也是你看75處的景點那高雄現在兩天21處臺北兩天29處看起來是還可以但是就是說像最近那個市政府也推那個Mango 990事實上都值回票價但是就是少了宣傳"},{"start":10614.914,"end":10640.179,"text":"要讓國人知道要讓世界人知道來這邊是怎麼樣玩所以我剛提供那個影片其實我看了自己也不只部長看了蠻想去我看了也蠻想去這個就是說這個現在年輕人在玩什麼有時候我們要降低自己的年齡用年輕人的角度怎麼玩這才是重要的所以我是希望說我們現在再回到第一章就是說"},{"start":10640.979,"end":10669.468,"text":"那個部長現在宣誓要擬定新的TPAS那跟剛才署長提到的台灣PASS然後跟各縣市政府或者是各縣市的重要的景點如果把它連結成一個好玩的周遊卡那讓然後你看其實這裡還有很多包括網紅在宣傳這個都是另外一個宣傳的方式所以希望說交通部就針對台灣好玩卡"},{"start":10670.972,"end":10698.966,"text":"針對各縣市的好玩卡那怎麼樣做整合怎麼樣結合交通跟景點然後讓國人自己在國內旅遊也好讓世界人到台灣來觀光旅遊也好這都是一個很好的賣點觀光局有做一個廣告是宣傳台灣是還不錯但是呢如果把這個好玩卡放進去那個廣告裡面你去知道要玩什麼又好玩又便宜又划得來他就會想來是不是這個部分可以請那個部長跟署長好好的規劃一下"},{"start":10700.167,"end":10700.627,"text":"現在請蔡奇昌委員質詢"},{"start":10726.301,"end":10729.984,"text":"謝謝主席請交通部李部長請李部長"},{"start":10739.138,"end":10757.717,"text":"首先謝謝部長過去很長的時間在行政院擔任秘書長對於中部地區的相關的交通建設跟中部地區海空的觀光先代表臺中市民謝謝過去的李秘書長"},{"start":10758.658,"end":10758.738,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10789.219,"end":10792.405,"text":"首先時間有限所以我今天只就"},{"start":10794.529,"end":10816.693,"text":"臺中港跟清泉崗國際機場這個臺中對外的海空的門戶來救教部長一些問題首先就臺中港的部分我想過去我們本席還沒當副院長在交通委員會我就一直在提到港務公司本席一直長期在建立應該除了對於碼頭的經營管理這個海運的運輸的專業之外"},{"start":10820.834,"end":10840.944,"text":"其實交通部這是十年前的議題十年前本席就講未來休閒娛樂會是國家很重要發展的重點所以本席在十幾年前我就建議同樣的地方我就建議港務公司應該要成立休閒事業部門"},{"start":10842.97,"end":10869.162,"text":"這個可以增加港務公司的營收所以10年前本席預測這個趨勢大概經過8年副院長沒有來這裡質詢現在再回來這裡質詢我還是講同樣的話你看本席預測的趨勢實在是越來越明顯過去我們為台中港爭取了這個三井奧類到台中港來投資我想部長你應該知道三井奧類這些年來從營運開始一起非常成功人滿為患"},{"start":10871.207,"end":10890.924,"text":"馬上積極發展二期到現在到假日的時候連停車位都一味難求他也同時因為山井奧烈的投資帶動臺中港地區整體的這種所謂新的公寓大樓不斷的興建人口不斷的移入所以這是第一鐵過去我們認為發展臺中港的第一鐵要"},{"start":10892.225,"end":10899.217,"text":"那接下來我們會希望說臺中港務公司所擁有的可以跟休閒事業相關的包括遊輪碼頭、遊艇碼頭"},{"start":10903.676,"end":10932.072,"text":"本席只是覺得很可惜從疫後我們做了一個表格你看從疫後我們郵輪以台中港停靠的這個數量你可以看到過去我們曾一度有38艘次到最高74然後到了這個疫後從2020年開始一直到這個今年為止你看總共才只有兩艘郵輪的停靠所以這個可以說是一個雪崩式的下滑"},{"start":10933.851,"end":10951.041,"text":"那我們的遊艇碼頭這個最近已經發包出去但是部長這個也落後安平港其實已經落後相當大的一段距離了所以本席過去一直在推動除了三井澳類之外"},{"start":10951.801,"end":10970.183,"text":"我們包括臺中港的這個郵輪無論是停靠或作為母港也就是說無論是外國觀光客來到藉由臺中港停靠然後可以下船玩一天或者中部地區很多人想要從臺中港搭郵輪出國去旅遊"},{"start":10972.205,"end":10982.532,"text":"那現在我們只能選高雄或者選擇基隆其實對中部地區龐大的這種消費力量來講其實這個是非常不方便的其實機場也是不過待會我們再來談機場"},{"start":10984.178,"end":11011.259,"text":"那本席想請教部長對於像郵輪阿這個我也跟港澳公司提過說希望能夠趕快在今年因為郵輪一定要時間嘛今年不做明年又沒機會所以本席一直在建議希望可不可以對郵輪的爭取上面在今年有所動作而明年我們就可以順利看到從台中港出發的郵輪或者停靠台中港的郵輪來部長你請回答"},{"start":11013.664,"end":11041.206,"text":"跟委員報告我想我先報告遊艇的部分遊艇部分目前已經發包給專業的遊艇公司來做相關類似VOT的方式那預計已經在3月7號交地那115年可以來第一期可以營運那所以我想這時臺中港就有一個遊艇港專用港那我想據我了解目前這個業者準備把這個地方當成是全國遊艇的中心"},{"start":11041.826,"end":11042.106,"text":"明年有沒有機會?"},{"start":11073.227,"end":11088.595,"text":"今年的話我們很努力找相關的單位大家來但是今年還沒有成果但是在明年的1月3號我們有一個行事的預報就是日本級的海洋護士郵輪要來台中"},{"start":11089.335,"end":11090.436,"text":"明年從台中港出發的郵輪有沒有機會?"},{"start":11104.14,"end":11127.606,"text":"目前還沒有咧但是我們是有找那個臺中的有一些盤石會類似這種的我們希望就是以包場的方式總經理很認真他都有定期跟我回報精緻的旅遊直接到日本去現在還在努力對有都跟我回報他很用心那我希望部長這個加點勁我相信有機會"},{"start":11128.726,"end":11150.812,"text":"因為中部地區有龐大的消費力量嘛 郵輪公司要不要來 除了我們的積極度讓他展現出台中 中部 地區 很多人願意去搭這個郵輪那他有錢賺他為什麼不來呢 可是我們這個港務公司或者交通部的態度要很明確當你們跟郵輪公司表達這樣的信心跟立場的時候 我相信他們會"},{"start":11151.992,"end":11153.252,"text":"最後我想我再請教一下那個因為時間已經到了"},{"start":11171.038,"end":11194.971,"text":"那個機場我們過去一直在爭取這個新的航線跟航點那我先謝謝交通部我們爭取今年飛了這個新宇就飛了澳門跟越南的縣港同時呢這個包機飛日本的高松那我們目前這些年以後我們努力現在目前有13條航線7條是定期6條是不定期"},{"start":11196.992,"end":11212.308,"text":"那我想請問本席因為一直在追加嘛我覺得這個還不夠民眾希望從台中飛的這個期盼實在是很高所以呢本席想請教那下半年我們還有沒有新的航線或航點的可能"},{"start":11215.387,"end":11237.311,"text":"我請局長報告其實航點的恢復確實我們也是很積極的請航空公司可以來再增加那以今年來講今年的夏季班表大概每週是60班那去年的夏季班表大概是30班那新增航點的部分我們在這個臺中機場部分就是"},{"start":11237.551,"end":11238.372,"text":"這是定期還是不定期?"},{"start":11254.855,"end":11255.875,"text":"還有沒有你們預期但是現在還不能公佈的"},{"start":11279.454,"end":11308.01,"text":"我們還一直在請航空公司包含國籍或外籍再來爭取我們各個包含高雄也一樣幾個機場我們都會要求你講台中就好因為主席他自己會問他高雄就是我們這個部分我們會再持續努力就是航空公司因為其實面臨的還是機組員機隊其實國外的航空公司跟國內都一樣那有一些日本的點還是受限於當地的地勤的量能"},{"start":11309.831,"end":11323.499,"text":"時間的關係本席會持續來要求這兩個對中部地區來講這是門戶空港跟海港是我們的門戶不管是旅客進來我們那個地方消費或者服務中部地區的民眾方便"},{"start":11324.48,"end":11352.745,"text":"出國洽工或者旅行其實這個都是很重要的所以本席希望部長持續中部地區過去我們合作包括完成那麼多事情那現在我們也希望對臺中港跟包括本席提到那個新的港務大樓的興建然後包括清泉崗這個航線航點的增加本席都會持續關注那也謝謝局長持續我們保持聯絡該克服的問題我們一起來把它克服好謝謝"},{"start":11354.931,"end":11355.131,"text":"請李部長"},{"start":11375.675,"end":11400.785,"text":"部長好委員好我剛剛有特別聽到你的一個報告特別有委員問到我想我們現在到底要不要開放團客去大陸跟大陸的旅客要不要來觀光其實問題好像蠻複雜的一直談不清楚可是我剛剛聽到你講一句話我是有點覺得方向似乎有點錯誤"},{"start":11402.586,"end":11423.958,"text":"第一個你剛剛講說這個最主要對的你舉了一個理由啦我講很多因素但你舉的理由是說你看我們這個台灣有這麼多的自由行過去就你剛剛舉的這麼多人過去他們自由行來的人這麼少自由行來觀光人這麼少你這是你剛剛舉的意思可是事實上是什麼情況勒"},{"start":11424.958,"end":11447.749,"text":"我們不開放台灣到截至今天為止沒有開放以觀光為目的的不管是自由行團客都不要講了就這一關都沒開放有開放嗎除了人道探親探親團聚人道旅遊的第二個國際商務商務為旅遊的這等等的你來申請還不一定過"},{"start":11450.21,"end":11450.931,"text":"關光為目的"},{"start":11464.932,"end":11489.113,"text":"台灣有沒有開放台灣有沒有開放純觀光我就來台灣玩有沒有嘛沒關係又不是開不開放又不是你的責任到底有沒有開放對啦我知道嘛所以我是跟這個我們部長舉這個例子是怪怪的因為我們不開放別人以觀光目的為自由行的然後我說這是我覺得他來的"},{"start":11490.194,"end":11490.414,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11520.433,"end":11536.586,"text":"國泰人壽他得標完成了簽約我先講大家都很期待因為空力空在那邊國泰開發嘛都好事然後當時我在111年的年底我就舉辦了到現場的現刊考察"},{"start":11537.307,"end":11541.23,"text":"一百一十二年完成相關的審議 可能要環評啊 或者環查分析嘛第二個建造審查 一百一十三年 今年要開工"},{"start":11561.147,"end":11575.741,"text":"請問部長知道這個事嗎?還是局長打一下讓部長知道一下跟委員報告這個桃園站前的事業開發用地相關的前置作業包括督設省、交評"},{"start":11580.584,"end":11591.328,"text":"國泰正在準備相關的建造作業當中按照我們原來的目標是要在今年的11月動工我目前所掌握的訊息有可能會delay一兩個月"},{"start":11593.216,"end":11610.826,"text":"因為看起來112年拿到建造現在建造到目前為止沒拿到還好剛通過了剛剛講一些審議上個禮拜剛好通過了我們希望他最後的一個不管建造建造整個一個審查的過程中我覺得鐵道局也要去"},{"start":11611.927,"end":11612.348,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11634.631,"end":11660.988,"text":"桃園高鐵的兩公頃的廣場那廣場是公設的然後也把它拋出去了所以我們當時很擔心啊我的天啊廣場蓋一蓋不見怎麼辦因為它有很多的功能嘛所以當然協調結果我要拜託部長再有機會能夠接上來第一個要保留兩公頃的廣場而且是靠近高鐵站的當時答應第二"},{"start":11661.588,"end":11685.364,"text":"因為所有的鐵路的廣場甚至高鐵的廣場都會在N年之後當停車不夠的時候會下挖可是你一次招標出去了那我們就希望能夠這一次在國泰人壽一併考慮到未來我們的廣場這個部分當時也答應第三個直接建置地下連通道到高鐵站"},{"start":11686.445,"end":11697.244,"text":"那第四個要增加遊覽車停車空間現在遊覽車都沒地方停了所以這四個需求要確認一定要做到好不好幫忙督導一下那第二個"},{"start":11699.055,"end":11716.149,"text":"請問一下這個部長這你知道嗎我看到你的報告有寫了我們現在集結集結最後一里路事實上兩里一個是要通到我們中壢車站還差一站還差一站但我要謝謝交通部在去年的"},{"start":11716.989,"end":11743.092,"text":"7月31號終於向前推進一站已經進入我們市區了啦那但是跟中壢車站能連接到是非常有具體意義的因為直接跟火車就串接了中南部一些小站的不做高鐵的他也可以透過我們中壢車站直接串接到機場所以他是非常非常有功能的那請問一下現在進度現在確定要延幾年呢"},{"start":11744.092,"end":11767.629,"text":"目前還是以原定計畫117年作為通車目標這裡面有一個關鍵是在逃避計畫的CJ17標下面要把集結通過中壢車站這個位置的結構體一併做出來好你現在因為我們綠潔延伸線大月台的方案月台延伸的一個方案我聽說會造成延誤12個月因為你們報告有寫"},{"start":11768.79,"end":11771.673,"text":"117是原來的計畫,剛剛大月台發案延誤12個月的部分我想我們靠近一點再來做檢討目前我們仍然以117作為目標"},{"start":11795.01,"end":11817.955,"text":"我希望這個目標能夠確認那再來是另外一個A14就是因為我們現在T3預計在115年年底預計會完工那現在到底發生什麼事啊A14站體現在都是機長公司在做了那為什麼行政院工程會的特別報告說這個部長你知道他那邊有沒有發生什麼問題啊"},{"start":11819.669,"end":11847.094,"text":"A14要做一個車站跟我們的T3三航廈有發生什麼問題嗎?您知道嗎?是不是由機場公司來做說明這問題是在我們在施工的過程當中因為有一些結構它是兩邊要有一個銜接點那這些銜接點它在施工縫的處理上面在前一陣子的時間因為雨量比較大所以有一些水從那邊滲下去不過這些問題現在到6月底都可以完全解決了"},{"start":11848.11,"end":11864.609,"text":"確定齁因為我看行政院公共工程委員會的第一次的業務報告裡面就寫的說因為我們A14站結構工程是你們在做嘛然後跟T3航廈他施工順序規劃不當造成進度落後啊"},{"start":11866.164,"end":11882.072,"text":"是這樣嗎 落後已經是確定了嗎那個是銜接的施工縫的問題那我們本身的部分目前進入落後的部分都已經趕上來所以可以交給我們後續的銜接工程就是鐵道局這邊的工作是沒有什麼問題"},{"start":11882.472,"end":11902.858,"text":"因為今天事實上都跟交通部有關啦我想部長反正你也新手上路嘛這些比較細節的那我們有問的所有委員有問的也希望能夠持續做專案來關心啦我也希望你們這個玄接的部分有問題要立刻解決尤其我們范總你也是算是工程出身的齁這個什麼規劃不當我們盡量這個問題解決了還沒下個問題我們都希望能夠預判謝謝"},{"start":11911.14,"end":11931.594,"text":"好 謝謝魯明哲委員．發言完畢．現在請陳俊宇委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請我們李部長請部長"},{"start":11935.851,"end":11961.727,"text":"部長午安委員好部長針對這個0403花蓮強震之後的振興方案在6月1號已經開始啟動了那在6月7號的時候我在總諮詢的部分也有曾經跟部長您提到針對這個花蓮強震之後我們所啟動的振興方案是否可以納入宜蘭縣的部分"},{"start":11962.447,"end":11990.636,"text":"那當時部長您是說我們後續再來評估看看這個相關的住房率那經過這個端午連假之後我們看到實質的這個住房率平均大概是在四成左右那當單日的部分也有未達兩成那所以目前看起來還有一個隱憂就是暑假的部分我們目前的訂房率還是不到兩成那所以我想說是不是我們可以針對這個問題"},{"start":11992.356,"end":12004.844,"text":"重新來啟動相關的檢討調整可以比照臺東的這個補助方案讓宜蘭縣也可以在振興方案裡面稍微獲得一點紓緩那剛剛在這個部長您這個答詢的這個過程中我有聽到說"},{"start":12011.588,"end":12028.065,"text":"可能對屏東也會納入這個後續的這個補助方案那我還是強調宜蘭縣跟這個花蓮台東是這個共同區域的一個這個觀光狼帶希望說能夠對於宜蘭縣要重視部長您的看法"},{"start":12029.206,"end":12036.789,"text":"跟委員報告,委員對宜蘭的關心,我們也是持續關注宜蘭還有各地觀光的狀況這次端午連假,宜蘭大概45%住房率,花蓮只有16%"},{"start":12049.755,"end":12050.255,"text":"臺東32%6月1日針對花蓮"},{"start":12068.483,"end":12094.235,"text":"開始有住房的補貼那臺東因為他狀況沒有沒有像花蓮那麼樣斷崖式的所以他是8月1號開始另外因為7月臺東也有一個熱氣球節等等所以我們目前規劃是8月1號才開始在臺東那宜蘭的部分我們想說6月7月因為接著有同萬節等等的這個節日那我們來看"},{"start":12096.196,"end":12125.041,"text":"這6月7月這兩個月的住房率是不是有因為暑假或是因為同案節等等那相關的一些活動我們也會來協助那看看有沒有回升那大概在6、7月的時候我們做一個滾動式的檢討那麼看是不是要併同這個跟台東一起做處理那但是在這個之前我們有跟請觀光署這邊來協助就是像臺灣好行或者是關巴這個部分就比較等於宜花東是一致的"},{"start":12125.641,"end":12128.506,"text":"有優惠的措施鼓勵觀光客來進來"},{"start":12130.981,"end":12156.459,"text":"好這短期內就是針對我們的這個臺灣好行臺灣PASS然後還有那個關巴的部分兩則我們是可以先交通部這邊就是同意宜蘭縣先納入一致跟花蓮臺東可以一起享用那我還是拜託這個部長針對目前看起來因為最近有一個數據在這個媒體上跑出來就是"},{"start":12157.119,"end":12165.344,"text":"花蓮我們在這個政後的這個振興方案補助可能會超過8億以上那台東的部分我們現在概括可能是2億"},{"start":12166.65,"end":12190.017,"text":"那對於宜蘭縣我們就是針對活動類可能就是補助500萬所以這個落差這個數據上的落差是非常大非常明顯我希望說因為我們現在也不是強求說一定要補助到什麼程度我們希望的是能夠比照台東的補助方式讓宜蘭花蓮台東在推動觀光上能夠是一致性的"},{"start":12191.057,"end":12212.25,"text":"部長可以嗎?我了解委員的期待那是不是我們來看這兩個月的住房那跟我們最近所推的措施是不是可以把宜蘭這邊能夠把它提升起來因為宜蘭縣目前齁目前所有的觀光旅宿業只能用這個四個字形容叫旺川秋水麥酒金金人最中"},{"start":12213.311,"end":12236.282,"text":"就看著這個花蓮臺東在這個同一個狼帶上他們的補助案都已經很明確了可是宜蘭縣還在不接受所以我還是拜託部長跟我們的署長針對這個部分應該能夠讓我們宜蘭縣所有的觀光旅宿業更有信心一點所以再拜託部長那另外還有一個就是我們昨天這個6月12號這個"},{"start":12239.623,"end":12264.435,"text":"鐵路高架的部分環境影響評估已經順利通過了那我也希望說後續相信我們交通部這邊應該都有一個比較完整的規劃期程那後續的這個期程一定要掌握好把這個相關的期程接續上讓這個工程可以順利早日的這個來動工也可以及早來完工所以部長這部分可以簡單回答一下嗎"},{"start":12264.755,"end":12291.122,"text":"我們後續會請鐵道局因為環評很不容易通過那現在這個是一個喜事那我們期待這個後面的流程能夠掌握在我們手上就加快的來包括設計包括用地取得等等對 局長應該沒問題吧可以順利推動那有沒有掌握大概期程在這幾年內最快動工的時間會在什麼時候"},{"start":12292.97,"end":12321.69,"text":"跟委員報告我們應該在下半年爭取把這個案子報到行政院來做核定那如果在年底之前能夠核定的話我們會在明年做相關的設計作業也就是可以在後年可能有機會來動工好那再拜託部長跟局長一定要緊迫的盯上這個工作讓他能夠順利的來動工好以上謝謝部長謝謝局長好謝謝陳俊宇委員發言完畢現在請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":12361.055,"end":12386.678,"text":"慢慢來沒關係主席、各位委員還是先請部長先請李部長還有鐵道局局長楊振軍局長公路總局陳文銳局長部長好恭喜你到江文部謝謝"},{"start":12397.427,"end":12426.808,"text":"有了那個鐵道局我們局長這個前瞻基礎建設這個軌道建設的部分有哪些前瞻基礎建設現在已經實施好幾年了這裡面包括台鐵的相關改善跟都會區捷運的相關建設捷運還有沒有哪些捷運捷運在全國各地大概都有"},{"start":12428.149,"end":12452.409,"text":"所以是零星的還是有新建的新建的也有規劃的也有新建的是哪些新建的還記得的是哪些因為有些案子是用公務預算有些案子是用前瞻預算所以我講的是前瞻我這邊寫的就是前瞻基礎建設條例是好應該事後再給我我們費用提供給我好請回座"},{"start":12453.997,"end":12477.472,"text":"最主要就是說這個部長今天你的報告裡面我看了這個很多都是在絕大部分絕大部分都在西部那在東部的部分是都是過去延續下來的比如說這個花東公路這個"},{"start":12480.435,"end":12495.846,"text":"警官大道花東縱谷公路安全警官大道這個一開始本席在交通委員會質詢過很多次一開始都是要用省道的建設但是我們花蓮台東的立委"},{"start":12496.806,"end":12502.869,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12520.999,"end":12521.88,"text":"快速公路"},{"start":12537.553,"end":12554.989,"text":"臺灣的快速道路總共有15條這個圖這個圖15條當然現在還繼續做的比如說相關的支線那些還繼續在你的報告裡面都有都有那我們"},{"start":12556.462,"end":12582.818,"text":"花蓮需要一個花東快速道路最主要就是說從臺東要到花蓮因為我們主要的醫療院所就醫療來講主要在花蓮的慈濟醫院要從花臺東市要運到這個救護車運到這個非常非常的遠"},{"start":12584.881,"end":12585.101,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12614.298,"end":12639.166,"text":"我知道這個我已經在這個會期我已經質詢最起碼3、4次了所以這個我也質詢過環境部的部長所以這個部分是一個當然你們的說明很重要因為那個環評委員也是換的所以他不知道以前他講的那個問題早就南回公務早就做過了所以類似像這樣的好我們看這個"},{"start":12641.547,"end":12666.084,"text":"花東快速道路既然你們重啟了可行性評估2020重啟可行性評估那為什麼到現在為止在這個整個報告裡面在整個報告裡面未來114年度到底有沒有經費因為現在要籌編"},{"start":12668.139,"end":12671.731,"text":"現在就要籌編114年度的經費啊到底有沒有"},{"start":12675.196,"end":12696.894,"text":"委員跟您報告就是政府這幾年在花東的交通的投資其實有將近3000億的這個投入包括所有的蘇花改以外現在蘇花安如果環評過合訂我們也儘速的來設計施工那另外國道5接蘇花改這個部分也在持續那還有鐵路這個鐵路雙軌化"},{"start":12700.236,"end":12700.836,"text":"蘇花改跟蘇安的差距"},{"start":12724.865,"end":12748.817,"text":"整個建設的計畫就差很多啦所以我的意思是說這個為什麼花東快就是因為還在可延的階段所以他必須要有一些程序才會開始到籌備預算他今年八月今年八月期末報告會出來為什麼我們要希望能夠"},{"start":12751.051,"end":12776.517,"text":"為什麼我們希望能夠訂特別條例就是要協助交通部啊協助交通部去爭取另外的特別預算是這樣的是協助交通部好不好因為整個大餅有限怎麼樣能夠把這個大餅增加給這個交通部這個用意在這裡而且那個協助"},{"start":12777.197,"end":12805.277,"text":"促成花東的一個非常重要的交通建設。謝謝。好,謝謝鄭天才委員先做以下宣告。等一下在劉許廷委員發言完畢之後,我們會休息。紅夢凱委員也到了。好,那就到紅夢凱委員發言完畢之後,我們就會做休息。現在請黃城委員發言。"},{"start":12819.128,"end":12819.469,"text":"有請部長請部長"},{"start":12828.482,"end":12852.787,"text":"部長好委員好本席也非常感謝你對我們臺東的道路安全的一個設置213座的一個候車亭包含遮影棚的部分對臺東的觀光也好或者是在一般停車休息都有一個"},{"start":12854.028,"end":12862.786,"text":"很安全的一個候測庭這是本席予以肯定那另外就是我特別提出就是"},{"start":12864.946,"end":12894.074,"text":"因為這是臺東鄉親特別有一個陳情的一個立場臺11縣省道由臺東縣的富岡至督蘭之間的道路路段由於道路的狹窄每逢的立假日這車輛非常的人潮非常的多而且湧入"},{"start":12896.024,"end":12925.176,"text":"造成這個全線的交通幾乎癱瘓幾乎癱瘓所以常常在例假日的時候就會常常就會有可能會排成一條龍而且就為了為了行方便的交通所以這個就是造成了那個地方來這個交通的不便那所以本席在這個地方建議交通部在台東富岡市多蘭灣"},{"start":12927.297,"end":12944.484,"text":"規劃新建一座跨海大橋來徹底改善交通擁塞的問題以帶動地方觀光進而促進地方繁榮請教一下部長你是否會認同這個建議來做一個研究"},{"start":12946.227,"end":12971.404,"text":"公務員報告我們確實臺東的督覽可以說是觀光的重鎮也是很多文人雅士或是藝術家去那邊定居的一個地方所以這個地方越來越有相關的這個發展也越來越宜居那有關交通擁塞的部分我們是不是再請公路局再做一個評估看看怎麼樣來解決"},{"start":12976.307,"end":12978.828,"text":"其實不用評估,你們可以實際去參考、勘查"},{"start":13002.455,"end":13012.989,"text":"那這個部分是不是一個月內報告出來之後我們再進行看查好不好那你把這個報告給我那另外謝謝部長那我請教一下觀光署署長"},{"start":13022.545,"end":13034.76,"text":"剛剛我們宜蘭的委員特別提出有關於臺東觀光捕捉政策臺東花蓮還有包含宜蘭"},{"start":13036.403,"end":13063.012,"text":"記得我們長年以來每次地震受害者就是有兩邊第一個就是台東因為它是有連帶關係地形的地貌整個的一個地殼跟台東絕對是有關聯性那進而跟宜蘭也有關係但是直接衝擊到的是台東地區"},{"start":13065.453,"end":13084.963,"text":"所以應該這個相關的補助政策上次我特別跟你提過但是我剛剛聽到部長說8月1號這個對台東來講是會有大小眼的一個立場我上次也跟你報告過你說6月1號可以同步進行可是問題之後"},{"start":13086.644,"end":13106.696,"text":"你都沒有跟我回應啊沒有怎麼得到的消息是8月1號才開始那你本來有回答就是同步花蓮台東同步進行應該這樣的話是對台東來講也是一個尊重可是你現在要8月1號是大小眼"},{"start":13107.196,"end":13116.392,"text":"所以那邊為什麼臺東那邊的鄉親這些這些觀光旅遊的這一些產業都提出來抗議了你說"},{"start":13117.719,"end":13142.984,"text":"是跟委員報告一下我們是6月開始交通的優惠然後7月的話是團體的優惠然後8月的話可是剛剛我聽到部長說6月1號是花蓮可是我們應該你上次回答我的事6月1號是花蓮才是同步進行的不是嗎你上次回答我是不是這樣整個委員的陣型是6月是分階段開始"},{"start":13144.551,"end":13171.742,"text":"是不是同步進行我希望是同步進行好不好我希望是花蓮台東一樣同步進行那另外是部長還有其他的政策我就用書面來提出一個報告你再用書面來回答我有的是一個月有的是一週來回答我好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":13173.393,"end":13176.194,"text":"謝謝黃仁委員：發言完畢現在請陳亭飛委員發言謝謝主席我們是請部長部長"},{"start":13196.976,"end":13216.92,"text":"你擔任過台南的代理市長你擔任過秘書長我認為這個案子你應該是非常了解但是昨天交通委員會到台南考察你知道現在炸鍋大家認為說台南市政府在騙銀行的選民我們中央也在騙"},{"start":13219.994,"end":13220.294,"text":"李孟諺列席報告"},{"start":13250.58,"end":13262.558,"text":"市政府在騙台南市民中央政府在騙台南市民是不是你是代理過市長的 擔任過秘書長的你怎麼能夠這麼樣的"},{"start":13265.615,"end":13286.337,"text":"草率處理真的昨天網路尤其科技科技業界說哇怎麼會這個樣子然後呢今天的問題不是在經費經費早就沒有問題了357億這是行政院在111年市政府就已經抱怨了然後行政院也交給國發會審議"},{"start":13288.579,"end":13316.536,"text":"在112年12月13號國發會就說在整個案子市政府因為把散化站也就是原本規劃的這個範圍內沒有放到也就是要把他放到散化站放到計劃可是他原本不在計劃裡面所以國發會才把他退案請市政府要重新所以在二月份"},{"start":13317.637,"end":13319.644,"text":"這個公文都有在2月份113年2月2月的時候"},{"start":13326.26,"end":13347.336,"text":"鐵道局發給市政府說你要把這個計劃把散化站要剔除掉他不在你原先111年所提的範圍裡面結果4月113年4月市政府一樣在報進來也是沒把他剔除掉所以6月份6月"},{"start":13351.636,"end":13380.575,"text":"又把它變成說你要再修改把戰話這個站把它剔除掉就這樣跟預算什麼關係是市政府在計畫當中一直在鬼打牆跟預算什麼關係部長你知道嗎跟預算什麼關係所以現在大家都說阿本來不是跟我們說沒問題阿有什麼問題現在都是在送計畫在審計畫阿怎麼突然之間又說"},{"start":13382.301,"end":13387.548,"text":"因為交通委員會下去然後變成馬上合了300億這是什麼笑話"},{"start":13392.145,"end":13393.345,"text":"市政府報怨報357億"},{"start":13421.63,"end":13440.487,"text":"我們一直在追的我們關心這個部分已經關心很久了從111年我們一直在追然後我們也在問進度奇怪昨天全部都大翻轉還是李孟諺部長下去的你還擔任過代理市長還擔任過秘書長"},{"start":13443.39,"end":13450.138,"text":"我們就覺得很納悶啊所以必須在今天好好的釐清一下我們現在我跟大家報告從東區北區東區到大橋這個已經是計畫當中在進行了"},{"start":13457.881,"end":13471.408,"text":"在設計而且已經在施工了對不對現在是針對大橋道永康這個部分這個已經在現在都已經預算沒有問題這裡部分就已經357億了對不對"},{"start":13474.469,"end":13502.491,"text":"是不是這個就是全面地下化我再一次強調從過去到現在從111年開始所有市政府所報的計畫就是地下化357億好然後再來從永康再延伸到新在新市的部分這個部分現在在送可行性評估對不對我有一個部分講錯嗎有嗎我有沒有講錯沒有吧"},{"start":13504.415,"end":13510.358,"text":"大橋到永康現在這個路段是由台南市政府辦理可行性研究作業當中所以預算其實還沒有分別大橋到永康我的意思是說在111年"},{"start":13526.187,"end":13553.626,"text":"他就已經報了357億了對不對當然啊因為計劃還沒核定嘛是不是計劃還沒核定嘛現在也是如此嘛現在也是如此嘛可是方向就是這個樣子嘛沒錯嘛對不對不是你今天下去現在大家說不是我們現在就是357億只是市政府在送這些計劃嘛就是這樣嘛沒有改變嘛"},{"start":13555.052,"end":13573.263,"text":"對阿沒有改變嘛只是請你市政府要把三華站這個部分剔除掉然後趕快國發會核定之後那我們就可以核定整個預算嘛是不是這個樣子對嘛就是這樣結果昨天全部地方炸鍋說地方政府跟中央政府在騙人"},{"start":13574.659,"end":13602.451,"text":"所以要小心喔!你要非常小心我今天利用這個計劃詞讓你們澄清否則大家認為地方政府跟中央政府在騙人啊再來我待會會送一個計劃書這個澄清書給我們這個部長就是我跟你講的新營區東山路平交道南北兩側平面道路請改善拓寬為左右各三線車道我讓大家看一下這個還有我們國軍的遺訪喔"},{"start":13605.123,"end":13632.58,"text":"那邊高的他要接星的喔你有沒有在家整個都塞只要在這個上下班的時候他就是塞而且即使我們要去改善也很難改善因為我們平常如果沒有擴寬是沒有辦法的所以這個部分我會把所有的澄清書給部長拜託這個預算一定要做一個編列的動作然後還有新銀閘道"},{"start":13634.621,"end":13658.734,"text":"國道1的閘道現在的預算說真的是6.54億可是目前還在做一些相關的規劃那這個部分我們也要拜託我們的部長要盡快來做核定還有就是我們的新東里新東立體多目標停車場的部分3億6600萬我們也希望一定部長這個部分都不能再推"},{"start":13659.454,"end":13669.778,"text":"推辭也不能有任何的所謂的一個delay的動作這個再拜託謝謝陳廷輝委員發言完畢現在請劉許廷委員發言好謝謝主席交通部長有請請你部長"},{"start":13689.502,"end":13699.61,"text":"委員好部長午安辛苦了這個桃園是通勤族大宗的這個上班族的城市2016年我們桃園市的人口188萬人就業人數84萬人2024年人口變成232萬人就業人數攀升到117萬人人口成長幅度20%但就業人口成長接近40%短短8年的時間其實成長應該是非常驚人的"},{"start":13714.482,"end":13727.85,"text":"部長你曾經也擔任過行政院秘書長在地方也待過應該是你了解地方交通建設跟資源的需求以部長的了解我們桃園市的交通的建設資源跟大眾運輸的經費投入有相應的成長20%到40%嗎"},{"start":13730.527,"end":13746.968,"text":"我想這幾年在桃園的包括高速公路交流道的增建包括捷運各項捷運各條路線的施工我想投入的經費非常的可觀應該跟他的人口的成長應該我想應該是超過了"},{"start":13747.228,"end":13751.65,"text":"本期所在的桃園第一選區這個桃園經國小塊溪大友特區龜山的林口長坑A7重化區蘆竹的南崁它就是人口移入的大中地區"},{"start":13772.501,"end":13800.181,"text":"那這些新移入的這些人口基本上工作地點都還在雙倍所以每天的通勤需求其實是大幅增加的這個部長知道桃園市的這個通勤的人次一天多少人嘛人次這個數字我可能要再了解好沒關係320萬人次每一天就320萬人次來回嘛來回都算因為是人次嘛對不對那部長知不知道這個桃園市大眾運輸的使用率大概多少"},{"start":13802.198,"end":13824.552,"text":"我們的了解全國是大概16全國大概16對不對是因為臺北市跟新北市的捷運城市入網已經形成的地方拉高了全國的平均但你看離開了雙北到桃園大眾運輸使用率9.1%這數字其實是不太好看私有運具高達77.8%表示我們大眾運輸的量能其實有待提升好那前面幾個數字因為沒有"},{"start":13825.532,"end":13845.862,"text":"沒有先講沒關係應該往上走對不對好都成長了好我現在要問那交通部現在的這個應該可以回答出來交通部的政策目標啊大眾運輸的使用率大概要多少我們現在是16嘛我們希望能夠逐年的成長成長到"},{"start":13848.118,"end":13877.284,"text":"沒關係口頭報告第14頁113年目標16%對不對然後18%然後目標117年的時候可以到20%可是你看你講的是市佔率可能算起來是比較寬鬆的可是你看以桃園來講其他使用率只有9%多所以其實要翻一倍這我們當然希望交通部把大眾運輸的發展列為重點項目那前一陣子從前面還沒有交接的時候其實我們就開始關心國道客運的這個問題那前面有講運價要做合理的調漲才能解決業者的營運困境跟司機缺員的問題"},{"start":13878.124,"end":13884.271,"text":"那前面已經發布了一波調漲我想請問部長公告距今一個多月有多少家的客運業者申請備查調漲"},{"start":13886.921,"end":13915.738,"text":"有沒有相關的一些資料跟數字目前就是說因為我們的這一個這個一般的公路客運的話是去年的這一個這個運價已經調漲那國道客運的部分是國道客運對國道客運是今年的5月1號那到現在嘛現在一個多月有多少家已經有調漲有申請有報備因為你中間其實都是大部分都是有政府補貼嘛對對對對對那有多少家有做目前還沒有實施"},{"start":13919.06,"end":13940.571,"text":"目前因為他們要就是要申請那申請之後就是說我們要審核之後才會去公告所以目前並沒有就是說業者目前沒有那這速度不夠快這第一個我要提醒你第二個這些預計啊你做這個調整的政策調整之後啊有多少家的業者啊本來不續迎的改成續迎的你們有沒有政策目標"},{"start":13941.687,"end":13968.725,"text":"比如說本來申請不適應的全國的國道科研有200條我一個政策的調整運價合理調整比如說其中100家回星轉移願意繼續經營有沒有這樣子的一個數字的預估有嗎還沒因為還沒上路不確定本期很擔心啦對你看五月講大家都希望喔終於有轉機了可是到現在已經六月中了都還沒有實際上路那是不對的嘛希望交通部加速處理這件事而且你部裡面至少要做預估跟評估嘛以這個投影片上"},{"start":13969.545,"end":13989.198,"text":"列出5203A、1356、1356A、9005、9005A、1662這些都是在桃園的短途國道客運本來就講說不做了我不續營了那我現在要看的政策指標是你交通部投入預算提升運價合理補貼之後他們願不願意回心轉意嗎這才是政策的這個合理的指標嗎你有多大的把握這些路線會業者會回心轉意部長"},{"start":13993.735,"end":14015.302,"text":"我們來密切的跟業者來聯繫那也鼓勵業者盡量利用這次的這個經費的調漲還是繼續來你這個兩週之內希望你可以給本席一個這個續營意願的掌握啦就先聊過說按照這樣的東西我什麼時候我什麼時候可以合理調漲可以改善多少的營收然後他願不願意回心轉意我至少要針對這幾條路線先做調查"},{"start":14016.502,"end":14044.017,"text":"可以嗎?這位請交通部協助一下啦好不好我覺得這事情是第一個是很重要的事第二個是重要的聯外交通路啊我剛剛有看你的口頭報告裡有國一甲的C段這我們分段做我們接受東段可以紓解南崁交流道跟村子路的塞車問題但是因為經過煉油廠有複雜這個本席理解但是我們跟經濟部也諮詢過跟煉油廠的廠長也談過煉油廠現在跟桃園市政府在談慢慢談逐步轉型是有計畫的換言之你以前設定的條件說它很危險所以我們不做"},{"start":14044.697,"end":14067.573,"text":"這個條件已經消滅所以我希望新的部長領導之下的交通部可以重新啟動國際甲東段路廊的規劃大家討論我們來搭政策溝通平台部長可以答應這個事嗎是我想在安全的前提之下如果能夠延伸這個是對交通有應該是有利的對不對我們不要以前其實就做過初步的計畫你去看他路廊還有繞路其實就是有做安全的考量所以這個路廊我認為是要重新討論的可以嗎"},{"start":14069.11,"end":14086.189,"text":"好最後是臺藝高將一樣是疏解縱觀線的這個交通這個會後我們用書面的方式提再請交通部給予書面的回覆那我們就不耽誤大家的時間希望部長多照顧桃園的交通建設可以嗎好謝謝辛苦了好謝謝劉許廷委員現在請侯孟楷委員發言"},{"start":14095.589,"end":14098.691,"text":"好 謝謝麻煩請李孟諺部長請李部長好 部長兩個重大交通建設這是民眾都很關心啦我再趕快就教一下請您直接回答第一 1054到林口這個連接巴黎的部分那您之前擔任秘書長的時候也積極協助協調"},{"start":14120.584,"end":14144.757,"text":"是不是可以跟大家來說明一下說目前進度是我想當時國土署他們有打算希望能夠來推動那但是跟財主單位大家是一直有在討論就是說是要用原計劃原生活圈去擴大還是要另外現在二期那是不是已經原生活圈擴大是已經有眉目了"},{"start":14145.217,"end":14174.045,"text":"就是大家跟財主還有國發會有共識就是用原生活圈的方式擴大的方式來報好所以近期內會有好消息他報還要帶當然還要經過院的這個這個批核目前我的了解是是但是在秘書長任內最後離開之前也留給我們地方一個期待那也是我們敬請期待好消息那再來我們也特別強調這一條105對於疏解林口龜山包括"},{"start":14174.725,"end":14201.882,"text":"因為現在很多車會往西濱台61走那這個如果能夠來開闢那對於蘇捷包括五股交流道的負擔是有很大的幫助感謝部長在提醒現在林口交流道改善工程正在進行當中五股交流道改善工程也進行當中那請教圓山交流道目前我們一直在講本席也一直很關注圓山交流道改善工程什麼時候能夠核定是"},{"start":14202.834,"end":14218.804,"text":"這個也是林口人、桃園人、龜山人來往通勤的時候每一次走到交流道都會打結所以我常常想形容就是說一條線上有三個死結我們要逐步把它打開目前林口交流道正在結了五國交流道正在結了那圓山交流道"},{"start":14219.504,"end":14234.229,"text":"我知道包括重慶北還有就是重慶北路的交流道 圓山交流道我們高工局是有一個整套的規劃是 現在就是計劃什麼時候核定嗎現在已經在設計了對所以核定了嗎他已經在設計了所以總共經費多少錢41.72億41.72億已經確定核定了那設計那什麼時候可以發包"},{"start":14251.206,"end":14255.351,"text":"你去年講的時候是說還在等待核定所以什麼時候核定的"},{"start":14258.085,"end":14262.807,"text":"本席其實一直關注我們觀光議題五月底到的時候那時候講是說我們的淨團力復路的淨團力還是遲遲未解"},{"start":14285.757,"end":14313.544,"text":"那我們現在最近也看到說大陸的藝人這個胡歌虧為6年來臺昨天也看到蠻多人都有去歡迎那甚至我們的海基會董事長鄭文燦也說樂見兩岸善意短期交流審核通過部長有沒有看到這個大陸藝人來臺的一個消息胡歌這個我有看到他還說他有臺灣腔講話所以對於兩岸的一個交流觀光的部分到底我們目前盡團力解除了沒是"},{"start":14315.519,"end":14334.854,"text":"我們目前是針對6月1號以前有這個6月1號以後是不能再接團對不對不要我們是不鼓勵業者來希望業者不是用廣告來招募新團但是舊有的規劃的團或者是已經組團的什麼意思所以其實部長原來已經規劃的團"},{"start":14336.355,"end":14361.412,"text":"交流發展觀光我們希望樂見因為我們能夠有團過去對岸也有團過來然後造成我們觀光市場活絡尤其現在6月開始7月有可能是暑假旺季疫情期間大家都苦哈哈嘛我已經不只一次講到觀光旅遊住宿飯店餐飲運輸業者都很辛苦那現在業者會講是說為什麼兩岸淨團體變成惡意螺旋要逼著大家躲在牆角裡面偷吃飯"},{"start":14362.512,"end":14369.403,"text":"什麼意思你自己解釋也解釋不清啊你到底現在能不能讓業者去招募團去對岸"},{"start":14370.405,"end":14398.299,"text":"其實我們目前開放的我們開放的程度是比對岸更寬那我們現在開放到什麼程度包括有自由行是都可以沒有限制的對岸觀光那對岸其實並沒有開放自由行過來那另外團課就是我剛剛講的既有的團或是既有已經規劃的還是可以持續的出團那我們也有彈性的從寬的來認定部長所以現在看起來是我們自己睜一隻眼閉一隻眼"},{"start":14399.64,"end":14425.509,"text":"放寬不解禁但是你就是明擺著還是有禁團令但實際上你也就是讓業者自由發揮那會不會有相對的風險如果有組團其實就是有相關保險等等是啊那現在就是沒有辦法組團啊他現在是沒有辦法組團你現在只說可以讓業者用自由行但是以往如果能夠組團的話就可以有相關的保險能夠到"},{"start":14427.09,"end":14427.43,"text":"現在目前目前來講我們"},{"start":14450.29,"end":14471.377,"text":"本席不想要拿出來是因為我認為說這個是觀光旅遊相關的行業業者他們的努力但是實際上你真的去上網看一下現在不叫組團吶叫什麼結團吶湊團吶就是各旅遊業者在網路上也有這樣的一個廣告"},{"start":14474.309,"end":14501.292,"text":"那本時不是要你們趕快去抓不是啊本時要凸顯的荒謬點就是說在民進黨政府主政之下你一方面你又沒有辦法禁止但另外一方面你現在又變成是睜一隻眼閉一隻眼那你不就變成是讓我們國人真的如果說有過去中國大陸旅遊的話他反而會變成是他的旅遊權益沒有辦法受到應有的待遇跟保障嗎他有可能如果說發生了旅遊糾紛的話會有沒有保險的一個情況"},{"start":14503.306,"end":14510.063,"text":"這不是才是我們主管機關業者應該要去重視的嗎所以本席才會在這邊請教到底我們現在政策態度是什麼"},{"start":14511.738,"end":14538.094,"text":"之前有報名的或是有洽詢的是2月1號開始2月1號以前報名的2月7號以前報名的但是有多少團是2月7號以後報名的你到底現在有沒有查過那時候算是1000團是那現在到底有沒有查過是這一些團有人出去還是都新組團的大概7月跟8月因為現在沒辦法當月來做計算嘛所以一定要隔月對最快的話也是7月底"},{"start":14539.395,"end":14543.081,"text":"本席一直強調是我們捍衛我們自己的立場主張我們的核心價值"},{"start":14553.601,"end":14553.741,"text":"尊嚴﹑對等"},{"start":14572.136,"end":14585.174,"text":"那犧牲的受害的還是國人的權益啊而且業者會講是說明明可以我正大光明的做生意為什麼逼得好像我在民進黨政府主政之下我要偷偷摸摸的去組團"},{"start":14588.439,"end":14614.064,"text":"這不是才是問題嗎部長不要只是點頭重點是聽盡本席代表我們所有觀光旅遊住宿餐飲運輸業者的心聲也許不是你這個層級有辦法處理但是至少你要把握每一次的機會跟上層反應不要用政治意識形態綁架我們觀光的市場好不好謝謝"},{"start":14616.331,"end":14620.783,"text":"黃孟楷委員歡迎完畢 我們現在休息 下午1點半繼續開會 謝謝"},{"start":14646.035,"end":14647.016,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14676.648,"end":14677.068,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14707.718,"end":14708.159,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14719.025,"end":14719.325,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14746.171,"end":14746.451,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14770.861,"end":14771.301,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14791.327,"end":14791.747,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14812.65,"end":14812.95,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":14843.715,"end":14844.075,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14872.784,"end":14873.044,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14890.987,"end":14891.608,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14920.907,"end":14921.148,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14946.419,"end":14946.86,"text":"發言委員．完整會議"},{"start":14975.955,"end":14976.335,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15005.65,"end":15006.01,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15035.086,"end":15035.106,"text":"暫停"},{"start":15060.193,"end":15061.696,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15071.838,"end":15072.499,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15102.178,"end":15102.519,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15109.104,"end":15110.264,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15134.785,"end":15135.126,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15167.161,"end":15167.641,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15171.922,"end":15172.963,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15193.844,"end":15194.524,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15217.462,"end":15217.882,"text":"官報官報"},{"start":15232.234,"end":15233.575,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15260.313,"end":15260.894,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15280.246,"end":15281.126,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15305.52,"end":15334.053,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":15334.053,"end":15364.053,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":15375.597,"end":15379.698,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15382.479,"end":15387.023,"text":"有限制,若有規定,沒有放棄,但是他有幾個情況是放棄的,譬如說吳哥他是屬於演藝人員的率來選"},{"start":15402.347,"end":15403.589,"text":"原則上我們是分三類,一類是團體"},{"start":15420.469,"end":15425.216,"text":"對,是有疑病,也不能講錯,疑病,有疑病,對,那是國安會,國安會那一口,國安會那一口"},{"start":15437.279,"end":15451.568,"text":"譬如說我在學校教書那我們學校有conference那他們來的話他覺得一個人來參加那個這一次speech這也是國務對阿對阿對阿沒有對就是那個副知委很喜歡這樣講阿這都算是個人的行為阿個人的對阿"},{"start":15470.081,"end":15474.466,"text":"不夠精準,不好意思,因為我跟部長一樣講得不夠精準部長對不起,不曉得部長不清楚"},{"start":15501.835,"end":15506.757,"text":"因為是因為我們的原則是英鎊英鎊跟澳鎊英鎊跟澳鎊英鎊澳鎊的話對是"},{"start":15512.358,"end":15527.547,"text":"因為這個我們雖然英邦的話就是自己入委會所以英邦的話包括團體旅遊、自由行跟專業旅遊它這三類對,這個確實有點疑辯我應該第一時間跟部長講去報告清楚我再跟他double check一次我這邊也是被問的有點是"},{"start":15543.616,"end":15553.464,"text":"應該是確定是這樣子沒錯是這樣子我覺得表達的方式不過精準我表達的部分不過精準對對我在想對"},{"start":15563.491,"end":15568.913,"text":"對,我們太符合那個傅智偉的說法。對,應該這麼說。對。是,是,跟部長確定是這樣子,沒錯。對。"},{"start":15580.077,"end":15580.457,"text":"因爲國安會的獎報是這樣子因爲對,這個確實"},{"start":15595.956,"end":15605.328,"text":"是,我們同仁也是覺得就混在裏面,抱一次是,是,是,好"},{"start":15612.658,"end":15613.9,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15631.822,"end":15635.544,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15677.172,"end":15678.233,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15681.535,"end":15681.555,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":15711.054,"end":15711.855,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":15730.16,"end":15730.88,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15756.592,"end":15757.292,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15786.431,"end":15786.811,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15810.981,"end":15825.23,"text":"臨時會議"},{"start":15828.787,"end":15829.567,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15847.939,"end":15848.32,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15873.959,"end":15875.44,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":15908.586,"end":15910.167,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15919.465,"end":15919.885,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15964.189,"end":15965.409,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15975.009,"end":15992.978,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":15995.344,"end":15996.185,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16029.206,"end":16033.012,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16106.749,"end":16125.104,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16148.499,"end":16160.104,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16181.493,"end":16195.21,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16225.911,"end":16241.238,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16286.647,"end":16299.135,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16306.049,"end":16327.694,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16347.278,"end":16366.162,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16381.135,"end":16401.247,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16409.514,"end":16410.981,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16479.597,"end":16493.725,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16500.657,"end":16506.493,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16518.075,"end":16529.931,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16561.84,"end":16576.166,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16581.152,"end":16585.471,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16632.551,"end":16653.936,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":16666.664,"end":16672.372,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16711.032,"end":16732.589,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16762.176,"end":16776.083,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16807.927,"end":16827.147,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16913.507,"end":16929.777,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16943.643,"end":16964.955,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16968.814,"end":16988.525,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17068.578,"end":17068.96,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17151.357,"end":17165.107,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17222.449,"end":17236.855,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17325.998,"end":17327.534,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17440.913,"end":17451.832,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17479.005,"end":17482.437,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17540.918,"end":17551.788,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":17572.517,"end":17585.269,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17606.493,"end":17616.04,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17635.35,"end":17638.933,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17667.722,"end":17671.723,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17708.23,"end":17723.357,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17730.657,"end":17748.288,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17759.4,"end":17775.545,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17790.666,"end":17800.91,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17819.607,"end":17830.799,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17838.173,"end":17838.954,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17867.537,"end":17880.383,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":17907.314,"end":17919.663,"text":"好繼續開會現在請羅廷偉委員發言謝主席有請部長請部長"},{"start":17927.705,"end":17935.805,"text":"好部長好部長計程車呢第三責任險喔經常想要投保被拒保如何協助想跟您請問您知道這個問題嗎"},{"start":17939.474,"end":17965.626,"text":"那我先跟這個部長說現在公路法第65條第1項第3項規定計程車要強制投保兩個汽車強制險第二旅客責任保險但是這兩個險不夠用所以許多不管是計程車貨車連結車常常這些產業都遇到這個問題我就以計程車來說我們現在呢針對第三責任的一個保額一般人可能會加保汽車的第三責任保險您本身自己有加保嗎"},{"start":17966.397,"end":17992.976,"text":"有我的車沒有但是計程車像這樣子的產業呢他們常常遇到不提供拒絕保險為什麼因為產險會說風險過高高風險的對但是現在問題來了嘛那目前法規僅要求汽車強制險但以外的部分就無法強制然而目前的保險保額明顯不足賠償重大的車禍造成的損失我們而想要自行投保第三責任險卻因為產險為虧"},{"start":17995.238,"end":18014.359,"text":"虧損的這個風險為由常常都獲得巨寶這部分我們該怎麼協助是這個部分我們公路局有曾經協調過產險工會我請他報告一下協調的一個結論我們先不講了這大概都知道了如果有結論的話今天我們不會接到這麼多產業的一個跟我們陳情我想"},{"start":18015.04,"end":18041.228,"text":"可不可以再繼續加把勁繼續協助我想我自己也要來辦一個相關協調會但是如果未來殘險業者一直針對計程車跟營業車第三責任險依然拒絕保險的情況腐爛無法改善交通部如何透過修正公路法的相關規定我們當然也要顧殘險業者我保證我們都要顧但是我們希望是不是能夠更加平衡我想計程車也跟我講了保額高一點他們都願意"},{"start":18042.288,"end":18055.413,"text":"這一定有風險這一定有他們致富而要提高的一個問題溝通溝通還是溝通這個部分我希望部長正視這個問題那這個部分可以在我們6月18的時候有協調會可不可以提你另一個方案出來"},{"start":18056.82,"end":18079.529,"text":"跟委員報告確實因為這個是屬於就是商業險的家保那家保的部分的話就是因為主管機關在金管會保險局還有城險工會那其實計程車這個業者工會幾次的一個這個訴求其實我們都有而且我們還主動找保險局跟城險工會一起來溝通也希望就是說他們設計的一些這個商品那當然"},{"start":18080.829,"end":18104.137,"text":"這個業者所提到的就是說有一些的這個經費額度比如說比較高的部分他們其實也都願意來處理只是說因為商品跟這個產險工會相關的一個保險這個我大概都知道我們不希望去動盜修法因為我們不希望去強迫任何一方但是我覺得強力的溝通在這個部分我希望看到新的內閣能夠有展現出新的一個風氣出來這個部分加強好嗎"},{"start":18106.198,"end":18133.061,"text":"好第二個要跟我們的部長特別討論部長我們目前6月30在台中市高鐵娛樂城要蓋這個所謂的最大的購物商城那目前你有掌握這個狀況嗎有這個了解那您知道現在盧秀燕他們真的很希望未來能夠比照力保的方式在國道交通道拉一條閘道從各方面不用走平面道路不會造成這個部分交通阻塞這部分能不能在內部研議"},{"start":18134.322,"end":18142.929,"text":"今天時間有限我希望內部能夠好好參考這個盧秀燕的建議有沒有需要一個國道1來拉這個閘道我希望內部能夠謹慎的評估整體因為他在高鐵嘛高鐵的房子一直在蓋"},{"start":18153.797,"end":18169.973,"text":"然後我們透過建國北路我自己在地人整個走這個交通流量本來就會造成容易阻塞第二我也要特別提醒從我們的所謂的大慶火車站到新烏日我們這一段沒有高架化"},{"start":18170.814,"end":18195.26,"text":"以前所謂的鐵路高架就這一段沒有我想我也跟局長討論過我們希望能夠編列相關的一些費用專案能夠給予台中市更高的補助我希望部長今天您我把它提出來你可以放在你的所謂的內部的清單這一部分能不能幫我們加強關心對這裡就是因為當時是縣跟市步調不一致所以市的這個鐵路有"},{"start":18196.84,"end":18212.949,"text":"歷史工業我們現在要來處理這個可言已經報到部裡面來我們現在正在審議目前有所謂的財力分級去做補助我都知道現在我希望能夠有專案的部分我不敢說百分百補助能不能再提高一些這部分我希望你能夠來研議可以嗎部長"},{"start":18214.37,"end":18241.277,"text":"我們來再瞭解一下市政府負擔的一個程度一個月內給我答覆可以嗎因為各縣市有一個橫平性的問題我們再來看怎麼樣最後時間有限我想改裝噪音目前我們都沒有看到實際的效益我想114年我們要加強這個所謂的攬查以及未認證的部分要做所謂的去集合可是我們都感覺到現在噪音改裝真的是越來越多"},{"start":18242.417,"end":18260.494,"text":"這部分我希望新的部長能夠有新的力度能夠大刀闊斧的去處理這件事情還有現在網路上一直在講很多人在做客製化車牌這部分到底會不會造成後續延伸有所謂的掛甲車牌的相關問題"},{"start":18261.715,"end":18262.535,"text":"是,我們入案來處理"},{"start":18286.567,"end":18288.671,"text":"好謝謝羅廷維委員發言完畢現在請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":18302.475,"end":18315.628,"text":"主席：在台委員先進．列席的政經事長．官員．會場工作夥伴．媒體記者女士先生．也請李部長．還有公路局的陳局長．也請我們臺鐵的杜董事長．另外臺灣港務公司李董事長．陽明台運的鄭董事長請準備"},{"start":18324.065,"end":18346.05,"text":"部長好 昨天的新聞有一個高頻東西惡快的環評要他在補正再審這個新聞說他施工期間萬一有廢水萬一會影響到缺水口的品質請問一下目前是不是有解決方案何時最快可以補正這個部分我有跟環境部的處長有聯繫他說這個部分請我們再補件原則上這個是比較一般性的大概多久"},{"start":18347.01,"end":18348.752,"text":"董事長有沒有看到這樣的新聞?屏東站的部分?"},{"start":18369.198,"end":18393.54,"text":"那怎麼改善這個我們短期內我們會再去檢視那個車站裡面漏水的細縫是那我們既有的我們的接水的設施我們再給他強化好謝謝因為這屏東車站屏東新站屏東鄉議很滿意但是這個部分的困擾要解決好謝謝那我進入今天的主題部長那兩位董事長跟局長請回另外兩位我要問"},{"start":18394.782,"end":18413.298,"text":"長榮萬海高雄港建制新貨櫃中心那麼在長榮的部分可以勤四艘2.4萬艘的船那在萬海的部分會提升兩倍他座位面積可達200萬艘那終於我們可以看一下下一頁大船就不用借外國港再分進台灣了"},{"start":18414.099,"end":18430.633,"text":"那這會怎麼影響呢?這表示說未來大準六港在高雄港的港務的相關的補給業務會成長,是不是這樣子部長?是。沒錯啦,好那我們等一下看齁。那麼其實呢目前港區在台灣港務公司目前有這麼多的鋼鐵、貨運、造船、石化、漁業呢,現在我們的空間還會用到什麼?離岸風機的組裝對不對?"},{"start":18436.838,"end":18465.138,"text":"未來還會有觀光的郵輪會停靠甚至還有高科技產業要進駐請問部長您覺得我們臺灣港務公司做好準備了嗎下一頁是我想港務公司其實在在高雄港的建設跟擴充是投入了非常多的心血是那漆櫃目前也今年會全面來啟用是我想有相有相關的措施他們跟著像世代的世界的潮流也有在努力是世界潮流在後面來我們請看下一頁鄭董事長來這榜上有名啊陽明啊"},{"start":18465.658,"end":18465.819,"text":"前10名"},{"start":18482.4,"end":18498.41,"text":"臺灣的航運未來會開始進行綠色燃料貨櫃輪我們看到了長榮跟陽明都搶進要改用什麼訂了假存船剛剛長榮在去年就宣布24艘16艘交給三星8艘交給日本那都是大型的船請問陽明有沒有類似的計畫"},{"start":18499.43,"end":18525.809,"text":"我們之前造了5艘LNG的船LNG的船是好那部長為什麼要問這個呢因為現在啊我們貨櫃輪的運能雖然只是在貨櫃這邊有占了一成的世界的運能運量但是呢既有的世界的能源分布在轉變以前以石油分布的油輪的點對點還有航線都會因為呢新的能源供應國加入像誰往下看"},{"start":18526.977,"end":18545.463,"text":"向加拿大向澳洲他們都是綠電水電光電的大的產國潛在力以未來的易太清或者綠安或者甲醇可以運送到需要的地方的日本請問部長或者問董事長鄭董事長未來你們覺得有沒有從貨櫃跨足到這些新能源的運輸業上"},{"start":18547.163,"end":18575.914,"text":"我想我們這個一定是配合國家政策配合國家政策那國家政策部長那你知道嗎?輕能的轉變不只是未來的航運船運他要改用新能源連我們新能源的供應跟需求點對點的航線航權都會改變過去呢這些郵輪都是掌握在產油國跟相關的他們的結盟手中未來我們的貨櫃人打不進去未來有可能我們貨櫃人有可能跨足去幫他們印新能源你覺得這有沒有可能?"},{"start":18576.574,"end":18600.8,"text":"我覺得目前台電他在火力電廠裡面也有加這個義太安對那誰來運所以這個未來如果他們這些事辦成功要擴大確實是需要這樣的運輸是的所以台灣要善用我們原來貨櫃航運的運能的實力未來呢可以跨足新能源的運送好我們看一下看那現在我們的港口到底有沒有做好這個準備呢"},{"start":18603.724,"end":18623.319,"text":"該委員報告目前我們在盤點台北港、台中港還有高雄港的一些戶地在加速我們的基礎建設那台中港是比較快就是現在施工當中那台北港有一塊地我們目前在環平高雄也有在做環平當中"},{"start":18624.755,"end":18645.997,"text":"好,那麼部長最後跟你提醒,CIP啊,哥本哈根,哥本哈根基金呢,他在台灣投資了很多的離岸風電,他們現在跟台肥結合,台肥的產能是什麼,是氨,氨就是Armonia,NH4,它就是一個什麼,把氫能源加上一個氮,過去是把這個Armonia把它去氫,存氮"},{"start":18646.597,"end":18647.719,"text":"請問做好準備有沒有部長"},{"start":18659.042,"end":18661.803,"text":"請指示因應未來氫能產業鏈的商轉﹐他需要的臺灣港區規劃改成三個月提出順便報告﹐可以嗎"},{"start":18686.555,"end":18688.216,"text":"謝謝主席、謝謝部長、謝謝董事長、謝謝鍾嘉賓委員現在請U號委員發言"},{"start":18732.603,"end":18734.305,"text":"有請部長部長好"},{"start":18745.253,"end":18767.155,"text":"本席就部長就任因為你對於整體的不管行政業務或者是交通部的事務都非常的熟悉那所以也是期待甚深那包括我相信在代表南投縣不管是縣府許縣長也都會部長能夠對於南投縣許多建設還也都期待甚深那在這裡我也想說直接針對"},{"start":18768.416,"end":18783.899,"text":"之前所特別關心關注的終結是不是延伸到南投還大約什麼時候可以來兌現承諾那也同樣的幫部長再複習一下這個過去在蔡英文總統她其實曾經也提到說終結延伸到南投"},{"start":18784.52,"end":18811.997,"text":"那包括在賴清德就是總統也在南投來造勢的時候也在新聞畫面也看到了終結要延伸到南投包括那時候時任的行政院長也提出了那想要就教一下部長目前終結延伸到南投的一個期程跟一個規劃那因為本期在3月7號的時候在交通委員會不僅有質詢也有提出這個臨時提案"},{"start":18812.617,"end":18833.128,"text":"那時候交通部有一個月內規劃期程並向朋友委員報告那因為他這個生活圈啊他這個中張頭是一個生活圈他不是單就南投啦他是整個中張頭生活圈的一個發展那我想就教一下第一部長對於終極延伸到南投的態度跟立場以及說目前這個期程規劃"},{"start":18835.633,"end":18855.153,"text":"目前終結延伸南投那台中市政府正在規劃的階段應該是說規劃然後後面就是可行性的這個部分那我們也會協調市政府來加快腳步報上來我們會儘速來協助審議那有一些細節我請局長也跟您報告"},{"start":18856.021,"end":18871.79,"text":"嗯沒關係局長今天就先不讓你說明再補書面資料給我因為那個書面資料還欠著那這最主要是局長那個部長你就是也是支持終結性藍投嘛那是加快嘛那本席在這裡還是補充一下就是說因為"},{"start":18872.31,"end":18897.76,"text":"一日生活圈中章頭那中期延伸到不管是到南投或是草屯市那這個部分都是屬於這個公用輸黃的預緩那兩到三站以上的這個捷運站在這14公里內那因為南投也沒有捷運局也沒有捷運公司那這個部分其實還是要請這個就是交通部這邊盡快來規劃那也希望部長是表達支持進南投的一個立場"},{"start":18898.76,"end":18912.152,"text":"是我想他整個規劃出來那麼他會評估他的投資的這個經營比經營比包括運量等等那如果這個有整個投資的效益有足夠我想我們會請國發會這邊審議的時候來支持"},{"start":18915.655,"end":18929.877,"text":"因為這個部分都是一個政治的支票啦那還是要跟您再複習一下OK那還是專程是正向支持那局長OK那再等您書面資料就好那接著就是TPAS的部分那因為TPAS"},{"start":18930.658,"end":18952.12,"text":"在之前交通部這一個方案其實是非常的不錯但是竹山是被pass掉了因為在這個Tpass的部分我們看到這個月票的規劃中張投苗有納入苗栗那在去年的時候那在今年雲加加南的時候也有把這個生活捐贈納入但是竹山鎮包括鹿谷鄉"},{"start":18952.941,"end":18977.062,"text":"的生活圈其實是臨近斗六臨近雲林但是問題是在竹山包括鹿谷地區在這個TPAS的月票的購買上其實他們主要的生活圈是往這個斗六這邊過去那想請教一下在這樣子放寬如何讓南投可以跟臨近的雲林做接軌那我想請教一下部長或是局長相關後續規劃怎麼做"},{"start":18978.083,"end":19001.925,"text":"可能第一個要先請南投跟雲林縣兩個縣府這邊先做溝通那他們如果溝通完就那個費率提出方案我們這邊就可以來協助審核那當然如果有需要我們也可以主動先邀兩個縣市來對口因為竹山確實單獨竹山鎮如果沒有縣府幫忙出面協調確實是不容易"},{"start":19002.185,"end":19003.585,"text":"我請我們局長找這兩個縣府的交通單位來談"},{"start":19028.595,"end":19028.615,"text":"觀光議題"},{"start":19049.476,"end":19067.049,"text":"臺灣是地震帶所以不方便有任何的一個重大的建設或觀光建設就直接把南投線還如此重要的一個觀光警鐵的計畫直接完全封殺掉了那當然組長也非常的難為因為有時候我們也知道在許多的一個政策的推動"},{"start":19067.87,"end":19085.181,"text":"有時候可能是下面的或外部的學者可能會有特別的意見受到特別的一個指示或者有時候一些政策可能也會有上面的指示但是本席是覺得說像太極美帝他是攸關不僅是南投縣竹山陸股地區整體的觀光發展"},{"start":19086.241,"end":19105.655,"text":"他同時也是代表著這個南投縣在新的一個亮點觀光帶入遊客的一個情況之下尤其是像現在在兩岸關係如此不好的情況觀光客沒有辦法來國內的旅遊更是重要那好不容易縣府的努力之下天梯已經可以開始運行"},{"start":19106.155,"end":19107.355,"text":"臺籍美帝會串聯八卦茶園、山林溪、溪頭、天梯"},{"start":19121.5,"end":19121.56,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19139.815,"end":19159.429,"text":"臺灣是地震帶不方便有任何的建設就直接把南投縣政府的案子給推翻掉這本行是覺得強烈表達不滿那個過程中我本行也確實是沒有收到任何後續的一個如果要讓我們縣府跟議會來去面對這件事情的解決方案因為這件事情的過程讓南投縣政府跟南投縣議會"},{"start":19160.53,"end":19161.051,"text":"現在請傅坤祺委員發言"},{"start":19199.745,"end":19225.91,"text":"主席,請部長。請你部長。部長,謝謝。謝謝你在零四零三大地震的時候有到華聯來做相關的這些災情的探勘以及要怎麼重建,也提出了很多的意見。本席今天還是讓你再來複習一下。"},{"start":19228.942,"end":19253.453,"text":"這個當時大地震不管是在台八線還是在蘇花公路再看一下當時地震的情況好不好不是這個啦影片啦再看一下齁蘇花公路"},{"start":19256.512,"end":19261.897,"text":"幾乎每一個路段還有台八線都隨時會要人命的"},{"start":19280.701,"end":19293.21,"text":"在當時地震過後當時您擔任行政秘書長也來花蓮來看災"},{"start":19306.995,"end":19334.05,"text":"請問一下部長當時本席一直要求對整個蘇花公路以及台八線要做一個徹底的一個安全的評估民粹道能做的部分盡量做因為現在隨時會攤下來隨時會要人的命我想東部的鄉親為什麼還在走這種古道這種古道還要面對這樣的一個人命隨時會碰到"},{"start":19335.56,"end":19341.105,"text":"臺巴縣東段地震後後續的部分的話大概就是說這個沿線還有六處的一個邊坡需要再做一個進一步的一個"},{"start":19364.964,"end":19388.08,"text":"整治大概在年底會完成那臺巴縣的花蓮東段這邊我們也有規劃有四處的一個民隧道也會持續來進行那另外就是說委員所提到的整段的就臺巴縣因為這次4月3號地震之後後續的這個比較長遠的一個評估的話我們也會啟動一個這一個整個的一個地質的一個這個調查會有一個研究案"},{"start":19390.191,"end":19418.755,"text":"現在你不管做四處的明隧道你要了解說到底現在整個地質鬆動以後所有用路人的安全他的系數到底是多少要一個整體的一個評估要盡快的啟動也不惜你講了很多次要盡快來啟動我們看一下那個照片那你看一下這個又是前天6月12號凌晨"},{"start":19420.319,"end":19448.699,"text":"臺巴縣174K又攤掉了可以看到這個攤掉這個情況是整個路全部埋掉來下一張這幾乎啊這我們都不敢講啊現在在一個已開發國家臺灣還有人民在走這樣的一個道路這個連衣索匹都還不如這個人命在這裡大概是沒有什麼價值"},{"start":19450.822,"end":19452.363,"text":"整個研究案會期到"},{"start":19466.468,"end":19489.544,"text":"對一個交通平權生命無價是用什麼樣的心態來看待部長跟委員報告這個現場我有在5月29號有再去過一次那確實是沿線真的是觸目驚心那現在除了臺巴針對這個中橫的部分除了剛剛講的四個民隧道以外那我們也請公路體育"},{"start":19489.904,"end":19493.866,"text":"臺灣居住在這塊土地上的人民都是同樣的子民當然要盡快做一個完整的一個評估要怎麼樣來"},{"start":19508.396,"end":19533.592,"text":"做所有的安全的補強另外蘇花安現在進度怎麼樣蘇花安環評已經小組通過那我們會儘速讓大會來核定那接著就是啟動相關的設計公建計畫的核定跟相關設計跟發包所以預估應該在明年底後年初從4年多前一直詢問到現在我要特別再喚醒您的記憶"},{"start":19535.113,"end":19559.922,"text":"蘇花改是在民國100年1月29號動工在119年1月6號通車為什麽要喚醒部長的記憶就是從105年以後民進黨執政到現在已經整整8年多那蘇花改的後續蘇花案到現在"},{"start":19561.744,"end":19587.457,"text":"都還不知道什麼時候可以動工希望部長給我一個期程好不好剛剛有跟委員報告你就有詳細的期程列因為他這個是要二階環評所以通常需要三到四年你們估一個時間不要說又是四年以後好不好那另外就是啊本席在這裡啊這個沒關係啊那個主席啊我們時間很短我再看一下我們的滑動快"},{"start":19591.017,"end":19608.444,"text":"2012年的評估在2016年公佈的時候滑動快148公里819億但是我們很遺憾在2016年公佈以後2017年的前瞻基礎計劃並沒有納入在院會表決被否決掉了"},{"start":19609.386,"end":19636.122,"text":"那在經過2020重新研新研究2023年去年出來現在是2555億固然多了26公里但是整體卻要2555億所以本席在這裡再一次的表達這是台灣最卑微的一個基礎建設現在如果再不做未來要多少錢才能做"},{"start":19637.745,"end":19653.256,"text":"最後一張再看一下陽梅道頭份段的這個拓寬36公里1314億一公里36.5億花東塊174公里以現在估算2555億一公里14.7億一個14.71公里要不要興建而在西部一公里要36.5億這個已經核定了"},{"start":19667.492,"end":19686.63,"text":"所以花東快請盡快核定讓東部有一條平安的路可以走部長這一份也請書面給本席謝謝好 謝謝傅坤祺委員發言完畢現在請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":19690.424,"end":19718.59,"text":"在陳委員發言之前簡單做個說明本委員會是很佛心的是佛教聖地我們對於每個委員發言時間其他委員會的委員是5分鐘也不會比其他委員會少而且我們都會給委員在30秒來做收尾如果30秒無法收尾的時候到1分鐘我們才會有一些的這樣"},{"start":19720.31,"end":19724.052,"text":"主席我等一下不用等到你的心靈神會我一定會努力準時下台好謝謝主席有請交通部部長請李部長委員好"},{"start":19747.813,"end":19773.211,"text":"部長午安。過往我住在花蓮,原末十多年。那我去花蓮念書的時候呢,花蓮的交通跟今天相比,非常多的好朋友,包括我自己的孩子,現在暑假,他們會自己搭火車回去花蓮。我想問部長,如果我們要跟花蓮的鄉親交代,民進黨執政這八年,我們到底如何改善花蓮的交通建設,你會怎麼跟花蓮的鄉親溝通?"},{"start":19774.412,"end":19796.903,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們這幾年包括已經投入或準備要投入在花蓮花東的交通建設大概有3000億那裡面包括蘇花改那最近剛合訂的就是環評剛通過的蘇花安還有國道5接蘇花改等於是讓這個蘇花改蘇花安如果貫通就可以從國道5一路有一個快速道路到新城"},{"start":19797.683,"end":19816.059,"text":"那另外台東這邊就是南回還有鐵路電氣化雙軌化還有過去電氣化的投入所以這些加起來其實有將近3000億的經費那另外台鐵裡面現在最好的車廂就是EMU3000我們大部分EMU3000的主力都放在花蓮花東"},{"start":19817.56,"end":19834.7,"text":"我自己回花林的時候還蠻常坐EM-13000應該有這個感覺車廂非常的新穎而且座位數比泰魯閣還有普悠瑪多了將近200個位置是他有500多個位置所以最好的我們都優先提供給花東地區來使用"},{"start":19835.02,"end":19864.164,"text":"那根據剛剛說了這麼多如果我們還是有鄉親覺得不夠我其實想要跟部長討論其實非常多的委員都在說花蓮的特殊的地景還有導致他這個整個交通動線可能跟西部的狀態非常不一樣我相信部長你去過花蓮你一定明白那我們在促進更多的交通建設之前我相信台灣絕對不是土法煉鋼我們如何在參考國外有類似相關交通狀況的國家他們所做的開發如何在"},{"start":19865.684,"end":19892.656,"text":"2024的此時此刻在全球化的樣態已經有全然的改變情況下我相信開發跟照顧鄉親的交通照顧鄉親的民生產業絕對是我們在意的事情但是開發難道只能有一種樣貌嗎或者是這樣子的交通開發我們除了做環評除了做相關預算的規劃之外我們有沒有機會花更多力氣跟鄉親溝通如同我剛剛所請教您的您剛剛所說的這些其實花蓮的鄉親都不見得知道對嗎"},{"start":19893.936,"end":19915.272,"text":"對所以我記得副總統蕭美琴副總統他之前在花蓮擔任立委的時候他其實就提醒過交通部在做所有的交通建設之前我們都必須花時間跟花蓮的鄉親溝通我相信後續的很多建設是不是交通部也有相關的規劃我們直接到花蓮去我相信在民進黨裡面呢從沈柏洋委員到之前任亞花蓮的范雲委員"},{"start":19915.832,"end":19940.258,"text":"還有我過去在花蓮住了10多年我相信我們都一起願意到花蓮去跟更多的鄉親溝通請聽大家的聲音跟需求甚且所有的交通建設可能都還會有另外一個負面的效應其實當時在蓋快速道路的時候很多人都說會不會大家就快快來於是就會快快走很多觀光現在已經走到了我們必須要重新檢視快速的發展不必然是全面的好事對嗎部長"},{"start":19941.378,"end":19963.152,"text":"跟委員報告就是一個交通建設我想不管什麼建設都是這樣它經費到一個程度規模到一個程度它繼續要經過環評那效益的評估之外那也要針對公民的參與那尤其在華東地區因為有原住民的部落所以要經過部落諮商的同意那我舉個例子像現在舒華安"},{"start":19964.153,"end":19978.284,"text":"好不容易環評已經過了但是現在有兩個部落沒錯我們看到的很多新聞也是這樣擔心說快速道路通過他們的部落會不會影響就是我剛剛說的快快來就快快走對不對所以未來花東快"},{"start":19979.045,"end":19995.081,"text":"同樣也有這個要面臨這個公民溝通、部落溝通的問題,跨通快有11個部落要去溝通那也就是說如果我們最近有跟豬肉總局在討論蘇花安如果兩個部落一直都不同意,可能那個部分要先檢作"},{"start":19995.842,"end":20012.95,"text":"我相信這麼多的溝通部長您剛剛回答都非常明確我相信我們都要一起努力繼續跟鄉親溝通把鄉親的聲音跟需求跟所有發展可能帶來的正面影響跟負面的影響我想我們都要一併考慮我真的時間有限我可不可以快速切進我的投影片"},{"start":20014.05,"end":20037.856,"text":"我們之前去看了臺鐵有相關臺鐵文資保存的事情那可能部長您在這個部分比較不熟悉可是我要快速的說一下因為在臺鐵公司化的過程當中相關文件資料的保留其實有非常多民間專家學者甚至檔案局也主動介入關心那可是我要提醒部長我們現在發現一個很嚴重很嚴重的狀況主席抱歉我有30秒趕快那個"},{"start":20039.136,"end":20059.383,"text":"當機關改制為公營事業機構之後他在改制前檔案的移交必須要給該機關的上級主管機關作為相關盤查或者是盤點的依據可是目前台鐵在公司化的過程當中交通部應該要去監督這些資料的移轉可是看起來應該發生了一些交接上的困難部長您多了嘴巴你一定想說不知道發生了什麼事情"},{"start":20060.003,"end":20060.143,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20080.547,"end":20081.368,"text":"臺鐵的歷史是整部台灣很重要的發展歷史"},{"start":20103.823,"end":20111.048,"text":"是我們在書面提供跟委員報告沒關係我們辦公室會主動找交通部討論好謝謝主席謝謝謝謝部長謝謝陳佩瑜委員發言完畢現在請羅志強委員發言主席有請部長請部長"},{"start":20136.348,"end":20161.138,"text":"會員好部長您好您過去公職經歷主要是在公務跟水利那這次接交通部長那考量到交通部業務繁重專業程度也非常高跨行如跨山所以我想應該算是很大的挑戰對您那我想請教部長我看了交通部200多頁的業務報告裡面分為七大面向"},{"start":20162.034,"end":20190.647,"text":"路政道安公共運輸行政觀光郵政氣象跟交通科技但每一項都很重要但其中有一項我想今天跟部長來討論一下這一項民眾最關心也最切身相關幾乎一定是每天幾乎每天都會攸關重中之重甚至跟生命安全有關你知道是哪一件嗎這七大件應該是行人交通的安全對路政道安"},{"start":20192.061,"end":20217.461,"text":"路政道安這一塊因為實際上幾乎每一個國民都是用路人所以我們人人都是用路人那我想請教部長你覺得我們現在用路人是安全的嗎我們現在的整個行人交通的環境是有很大改善的空間很大改善我們就來討論一下你知道歷年來道安事故總件數最高的紀錄是發生在哪一年"},{"start":20225.309,"end":20243.995,"text":"交通部統計去年是40萬2926件這是歷史最高的然後當然只看一年我覺得不準我想請教部長那大安事故前五高的紀錄分別發生在哪幾年"},{"start":20246.748,"end":20274.86,"text":"您知道嗎這個數字我還要再聊因為您剛上任我覺得可以體諒基本上數字部分來告訴你歷史前五高就是2019、2020、2021、2022跟2023請問這五年是誰執政這五年是小英總統對小英總統執政那您還可以跟我講說您覺得我們的道路安全有改善嗎還是這麼有信心嗎"},{"start":20277.239,"end":20302.72,"text":"部長是我知道從死亡的人數或者是件數確實是這幾年有比較增加的現象對啊那是最fundamental的嘛但是去年開始那個大家體會到行車讓禮讓用路人的感覺在去年開始是明顯有提升大家在走在馬路走在斑馬線上都會有感覺到是有被禮讓"},{"start":20303.721,"end":20320.604,"text":"文化是逐漸養生部長你現在跟我講那種所謂明顯感受這叫主觀啦但是我看到實際數據就是2016到2023年你知道2016年我們大安事故總數是多少件嗎我跟你講這個不勉強你我覺得你不會知道啦30萬05556件那到去年剛剛已經跟你講40萬件嘛漲幅是32%我這樣講啦"},{"start":20333.626,"end":20334.507,"text":"臺灣的用路人走在路上"},{"start":20350.283,"end":20376.61,"text":"我覺得這幾年是更加的草木皆兵如履薄冰也就是說從數據來看就是道安的部分真的民眾是非常不滿的原因很簡單就是大幅增加也因此在去年就爆發民怨所以很多人來批評臺灣是行人地獄當然我覺得行政院也有作為所以他提出了去年5月提出了行人優先交通安全行動綱領"},{"start":20378.45,"end":20393.744,"text":"那在2024到2027年這四年當中要砸400億來進行行人交通工程改善對不對那砸錢有沒有用那我現在還難定論因為這計畫在執行中"},{"start":20396.647,"end":20405.31,"text":"但是我就要講說我看到報告裡面講就是說截至2023年底入口行人安全設施改善完成3486處那行人專用這個專用實相及時開完成大概4753處"},{"start":20415.754,"end":20444.027,"text":"非耗資入口完成大概5505處這些成果那我想請問您覺得這些對改善行人地域有明顯的績效嗎我想路口的改善現在是我們改善中的一個重點那當然行人空間比如說怎麼樣建構好的人行道或者是行人的專用的空間這也是另外一個重點那如果改善斑馬線退縮還有包括人行道外擴"},{"start":20445.027,"end":20450.569,"text":"這些當然都該做我也支持但是實際上發生的效果如何我覺得可能部長要再多注意一下"},{"start":20465.134,"end":20479.527,"text":"因為理論上像這些應該就可以在2023年完成2024年就應該反映在行人相關數據上但是我跟部長提醒您最後一個數字你知道今年1月到3月行人死亡人數是多少嗎"},{"start":20481.03,"end":20495.739,"text":"是比去年同期是增加246人去年同期216人成長14%所以努力去做因為部長你剛上任但是我希望能夠在你上任一段時間之後真的拜託"},{"start":20497.28,"end":20515.469,"text":"臺灣的行人是走在地獄裡面希望部長我們不是只有美麗的數字做了什麼事情而我要看到實際的效果能不能請部長繼續努力是這個我們我想目標是一致的OK謝謝部長好謝謝羅志強委員發言完畢現在請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":20528.227,"end":20531.269,"text":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請部長 請你部長這個交通安全跟行人地域呢 我想也是交通部解決問題非常重要的一個課題那去年我們看到這個統計呢 有3023人他是死於交通事故"},{"start":20557.352,"end":20577.774,"text":"那麼未達年你降的5%的這個死亡人數當時交通部給我們的訊息是5%所以我們又看到113年3月份的時候新月死亡36人比去年同期同期的時候又增加了6個人"},{"start":20579.164,"end":20597.687,"text":"那今年1月到3月呢,協約死亡的人數是119人,比去年的同期又增加了16人。所以有人說他不僅不達標,而且事故呢,死亡不減反增。部長,什麼原因?怎麼因應?"},{"start":20598.628,"end":20616.842,"text":"跟委員報告就是整體的死亡率是下降是少了39人那大概有將近5%的這個數目不過行人死亡率確實是提高那這是我們要深切檢討我們會再分析就是說這些死亡的因素到底是包括"},{"start":20617.783,"end":20639.23,"text":"是被機車阻還是穿越路口還是在飛我們的了解是很多是在飛到沒有標誌的路口去穿越馬路部長那您告訴我說你了解的是怎麼樣那你既然了解這麼多你要怎麼因應因為你的數字是增加的"},{"start":20640.03,"end":20665.78,"text":"對大概會從三個面向來努力一個是包括路口設施的改善那包括就是說斑馬線我們希望新的路口改善斑馬線退縮那另外斑馬線改成是綠白鄉間的這些重要路口那比較醒目那第二個會退縮之後前面會有一個庇護島那讓汽車左轉的時候那他可以比較正式比較正面的不會切西瓜"},{"start":20666.6,"end":20666.74,"text":"．年底"},{"start":20690.82,"end":20715.228,"text":"市區799處交區的部分公路的部分會有大概7000多處會一起來除總共預算多少四年是400億會從這裡面去運作現在是第一年開始嗎對所以知道了解的原因那我們就要積極趕快去改善而且這種事是滾動式檢討改善了之後看它的成效怎麼樣"},{"start":20715.948,"end":20719.371,"text":"本期對於這個兒童的交通事故我非常的關心因為都是我們的寶貝但是我們看到2018年到2023年這5年當中人數是高達48765名"},{"start":20743.268,"end":20743.588,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20758.311,"end":20773.778,"text":"是我想兒童的部分是這裡其實不只是幼兒也包括兒童那所以相關汽車的兒童座椅然後另外機車騎士因為我們目前發現機車的死亡率機車造成的死亡率大概佔50%幾"},{"start":20775.519,"end":20797.228,"text":"所以機車的騎士的這個安全的教育還有比如說像戴安全帽還有有沒有不能違規的在承載的方式我想這些包括路口的改善但是部長您剛才所說的真的兒少的這個部分都是目前在執行之但是目前執行之他的結果是不好的"},{"start":20799.469,"end":20819.486,"text":"本席希望新人上陣你應該要有你的作為去盤點本席建議我們缺少了兒少的事故傷害的監測機制你是不是可以去做這個部分這樣子才是有所作為你現在告訴我的都是目前在做的"},{"start":20820.333,"end":20843.144,"text":"但是我給你的數字都是不好看的我們要安全所以本席建議您應該去建立而受的這個事故傷害監測機制本席認為這個非常重要你去盤點去規劃有方向出來請順便資料給本席好嗎因為這個非常重要你多久時間可以告訴本席方案呢"},{"start":20847.568,"end":20858.185,"text":"本期上次也在交通委員會針對於學校周邊向道速限30公里的降低事故的這個問題那目前呢"},{"start":20859.788,"end":20878.393,"text":"因為目前我們所盤點出來的改善的不及你們的預估的盤點出來的十分之一那到底是錢不夠還是不要做到底什麼原因為什麼既然你有這個政策出來你就應該要有所作為啊"},{"start":20879.617,"end":20906.309,"text":"請教是學校周邊的包括通學步道道路的環境的改善這個目前已經有列管500多處在進行那樹線的部分我們會再跟地方政府來協商好不好你們去盤點是盤點你們出來需要改善的那已經執行還沒有執行的好好去做讓我們的學童都能夠安全因為內政部營建署他們也在幫忙通學步道的這個部分大家一起努力來做好不好最後一個議題本席請問"},{"start":20908.17,"end":20927.875,"text":"兩岸觀光何時要解禁因為突然又來了一個法轄灣說6月1號前規劃的路團可以去大家很高興可是業者說你能放一點點放一點點他們要怎麼作為但是你們告訴我說告訴社會大眾說是我要開放要看對岸"},{"start":20928.752,"end":20954.218,"text":"那現在呢業者都在問現在呢逐步的滾動的檢討那希望互相的這樣的一個開放對等的這個部分在什麼樣情況之下因為業者都在等到底什麼時候可不可以通不通就講不通可以通趕快告訴人家他有所作為啊不然他就卡在那裡讓業者很難過啊那怎麼辦呢部長"},{"start":20955.957,"end":20970.105,"text":"你是不是檢討了之後,多久可以告訴業者?要一個發聲有一個暗聲嘛是,我再提供相關書面給委員了解你可不可以給我們一個時間點?是可不可以給我們一個時間點?告訴我們"},{"start":20974.403,"end":20975.804,"text":"楊強英委員發言完畢現在請洪森翰委員發言"},{"start":21016.2,"end":21016.983,"text":"請李部長請李部長"},{"start":21027.472,"end":21049.575,"text":"國勇好部長這個在交通部裡面其實我們知道其實觀光的業務其實也是交通部非常非常重要的業務範疇對不對是那我想請問部長部長你知不知道我們今年這個障礙者的人數在台灣其實已經現在大概多少人數了"},{"start":21050.732,"end":21057.498,"text":"你說在障礙者障礙者身心障礙障礙者"},{"start":21060.407,"end":21085.332,"text":"全國的總數整體人數好現在已經突破120萬人了那我想問部長是說你覺得障礙者是不是應該也可以有平等觀光的權利是應該是嗎相關的設施也都有盡量的要求有無障礙無障礙的這個設施的在觀光方面應該有平等的權利嗎對不然我們辦公室受到很多澄清那他們來表達"},{"start":21087.152,"end":21105.773,"text":"不管是台鐵的明日號觀光列車或者是臨鐵處的這個許悅號或者是福森號目前都沒有設置無障礙車廂那這讓我們很多需要使用輪椅的障礙者完全沒有辦法提"},{"start":21107.048,"end":21133.056,"text":"沒有辦法體驗這些觀光資源而且不要說大家都知道我們的社會正在老齡化未來會有需要用到輪椅的長者只會越來越多不會少不然我知道這幾個觀光列車目前我們去查了他沒有無障礙的車廂目前都不算違法我們去查了都不算違法"},{"start":21134.281,"end":21150.719,"text":"那臺鐵呢也跟我們說是因為他並沒有違法所以目前臺北並不想動但是這些觀光列車呢他其實都是用公務預算來去興建的來去建設的"},{"start":21152.844,"end":21179.22,"text":"那部長覺得使用人民的納稅權喔使用人民的納稅錢喔但卻沒有考量障礙者的需求部長覺得這合不合理是我跟委員報告齁其實台鐵目前大概百分之百的車站都已經有無障礙的電梯那另外有大概七成的車站已經把月台加高盡量讓這個月台進出這個車廂但是我剛才說的是這些觀光列車我請董事長"},{"start":21181.001,"end":21197.378,"text":"明日號、臨鐵許願號這都沒有跟委員報告其實剛剛委員提到的像明日號這都是我們之前用很舊的車廂去改造的如果說要把它變成無帳那幾乎整個車都要拆掉"},{"start":21197.978,"end":21226.553,"text":"那但是也跟委員報告我們今年開始我們會年底前會上線的我們的山南海峰這個我們就已經有充分的無障的設施可以提供給我們無障的朋友來做這個鐵道觀光旅遊之用後面新設計的列車也都會有校長因為我們這邊收到的訊息是其實很多障礙者跟你們陳情已久甚至也有很多去陳情的行動可是你們現在都是說"},{"start":21228.021,"end":21244.319,"text":"我們現在因為這都是觀光列車所以沒有無障礙設施沒有違法沒有錯生權法上面是規定只有大眾運輸要設計無障礙座位但你們一直說觀光列車不算大眾運輸工具"},{"start":21246.081,"end":21261.359,"text":"可是我剛才問部長啊我在一開始的時候問部長啊障礙者該不該給他平等觀光的權利應該的應該嘛所以恐怕這不是只是用說有沒有違法來看待這件事情嘛是的所以之前台鐵的回覆都是沒有違法所以我們就不動"},{"start":21263.24,"end":21283.661,"text":"我想客委員報告這個往後我們尤其是觀光列車這一部分我們會充分設想不然我要跟你報告其實不管是林保署的阿里山火車或者是台鐵他們其實在上路前都必須要經過交通部依據地方營或民營及專用鐵路監督實施辦法的核准"},{"start":21284.582,"end":21306.852,"text":"但這個辦法裡面確實現在是沒有要求車廂設計必須規劃無障礙座位其實我認為這是我們在很多無障礙概念裡面的一個漏洞這也是變成是我們相關的行政部會的時候他會說這上面並沒有規定用這個事情來去閃避這方面的要求所以部長我可不可以要求這個"},{"start":21309.193,"end":21335.072,"text":"我們就只講在三個月內是不是可以來請臺鐵來評估我們現行觀光列車來增設或者是用其他的方式來增加不管是無障礙車廂或無障礙設施也許老舊也許新的但總是可以找得到方案能夠讓輪椅族有條件可以上去跟我們一起平等享用這些觀光資源這是第一點"},{"start":21336.121,"end":21356.118,"text":"第二點我們是希望能夠檢討現在發展大眾運輸條例以及這個地方移民以及專用鐵路監督實施辦法裡面應該將觀光列車比照大眾交通運輸工具要求偵測無障礙座位直接就訂到這辦法裡面把我們法規上面的漏洞給補上部長這應該沒有問題吧所以我們來評估這個明日號"},{"start":21359.821,"end":21361.262,"text":"三個月的時間應該是沒有問題那把相關的報告再給我們辦公室"},{"start":21391.428,"end":21408.427,"text":"好,謝謝洪森漢委員,洪森漢委員發言完畢好,現在請林倩琦委員,林倩琦委員,林倩琦委員不在,現在請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":21422.936,"end":21425.546,"text":"謝謝召委麻煩我們部長請李部長李部長麻煩"},{"start":21433.48,"end":21455.226,"text":"委員好部長好前幾天這個國際上非常知名的企業家也是從在我們臺灣出生的這個黃仁勳回到我們臺灣來那也帶起了臺灣的一股AI浪潮那他誇獎說我們臺灣其實就是一個AI島我們在世界AI產業有一個舉足其中的一個地位那其實長久以來我們"},{"start":21458.888,"end":21472.881,"text":"臺灣政府長期以來好像都跟產業脫鉤產業發展的非常科技化但是我們的各部門常常落後我們的產業非常多我不曉得部長接任交通部長之後你有沒有思考過"},{"start":21475.743,"end":21497.497,"text":"我們交通部有沒有哪些業務可以利用AI的科技來提升我們的服務品質?有沒有思考過這個問題?我舉個例子,譬如說我們的高速公路的乍到移控那它現在就有利用相關的177的大數據那做人工智慧的演算來決定那個移控的秒數"},{"start":21498.617,"end":21498.637,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":21515.49,"end":21531.562,"text":"引向判斷的方式來設置我們高速公路的移控這可能我們高速公路有在做了那至於平面地方政府的交通設施呢我們其實大家常常會講我們地方的交通非常的可能混亂 擁捨那我們有沒有思考過"},{"start":21533.823,"end":21555.131,"text":"因為其實我在當然在第一屆競選議員的時候我就提出了一個智慧交通的概念那後來我發現其實地方政府根本沒有能力做這件事情那我不曉得我們交通部有沒有在思考這件事情來協助地方政府的地方的路口號誌利用影像的判斷來做秒差調整或者是行人穿越的部分有時候行人按了好久過夜為了要跟前後路口"},{"start":21556.111,"end":21558.914,"text":"現在我們有協助各縣市政府建立他的交通行控中心那這個行控中心就會包括整個車流"},{"start":21575.331,"end":21604.449,"text":"用AI攝影去做車流的演算那來讓他的紅綠燈有一個最佳化的處理那另外其實現在各個路口很多路口已經有開始做科技執法那科技執法也是用攝影機去研判比如說這個車輛有沒有離讓行人我們現在不是規定車輛至少要離行人3公尺3個整目的距離那這個這些影像他就是利用AI來判斷這個車有沒有違法那可以減少這個警察要在路口執法的負擔"},{"start":21605.269,"end":21622.377,"text":"耗資部分這部分我先再詳細了解一下耗資的部分現在還是在沙盒實驗嗎還是說已經開始普遍的讓地方政府能夠來讓整體的路網都能夠有這樣子的一個服務是我請市長跟您報告比較詳細的部分"},{"start":21625.152,"end":21651.018,"text":"跟委員報告事實上從106年開始一直到現在已經都上線所以我們在您剛剛所垂詢的入口的部分確實我們就已經用AI的這個CCTV來去做影像的辨識然後傳到我們的那個智慧的交通管理中心然後透過這樣的判別之後下到我們的那個入口的耗資控制器裡面然後把這個綠燈的這個秒數"},{"start":21653.899,"end":21654.339,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":21678.942,"end":21694.931,"text":"一年編列多少預算在補助地方政府算是update我們的系統一年的話我們全國現在目前是編了4億那有沒有預估大概如果說要全面普及的話需要多少經費"},{"start":21696.707,"end":21709.295,"text":"因為這個部分是比較重大概百分之六成會到這個部分六成對四億裡面有六成是不是我又說如果說全台灣的耗資系統都要去做一個全國更新更新的話"},{"start":21710.495,"end":21735.828,"text":"全國更新這個我們可能還在做統計不過每年的話這個我們是列為重點好那就再麻煩我們交通部繼續繼續加油好那另外這個我討論一下我們血稅這個塞車的問題因為血稅其實之前之前我跟趙偉去過勘察過嘛端午節的時候更之前清明連假的時候那我們那時候高工局是說"},{"start":21737.169,"end":21755.938,"text":"與其提高速限那的功效跟這個取締歸宿車讓歸宿車加速其實對於整個交通的流暢來說要求這個歸宿車加速的話對於整體的這個車流量的行進速率是會有比較大的幫助嗎對不對"},{"start":21758.752,"end":21784.743,"text":"該委員報告一下齁因為尤其是北上的部分齁常常人家稱的陸隊長那就是歸宿車其實他的下游是沒有塞車對因為我們現在要取締陸隊長非常困難嘛對對不對那我們其實現在有東西叫區間車速其實一直以來都被民間反彈很大齁其實區間車速沒有什麼問題啦最大的問題是我們常常會定一個不合理的限速齁過地的限速那大家才會來反彈這個區間車速我們有沒有考慮過用區間車速來取締歸宿那個陸隊長"},{"start":21788.872,"end":21805.314,"text":"目前歸宿車比較沒有辦法用那個區間測速但是我們會把歸宿車有顯示在水稅的部分有特別去做針對歸宿車會把他的車號差距我知道現在沒有啦我知道現在沒有嘛那未來可不可以"},{"start":21806.875,"end":21821.43,"text":"這個因為慢速的部分的話它涉及的比較多有可能下游也已經用涉了這當然啦這當然啦你當然會有一些例外情況排除嘛是是是對啊你至少像雪碎裡面它沒有辦法變換車道嘛那至少你跟前車差了幾秒"},{"start":21822.952,"end":21850.572,"text":"你差過一定的秒數以上然後你又用了過多的時間在隧道內那他可能就是一個取締的要件嘛他就可以取締嘛那如果說你前車慢的話我們當然也會慢嘛我希望我們考慮一下研究一下你們評估一下啦他們是能夠在一定的一個月內然後考慮一下用科技指導的方式來改善我們雪山隧道歸宿車的問題好不好一個月好那就以上兩個問題再馬上我們交通部謝謝"},{"start":21853.164,"end":21854.425,"text":"現在請王美惠委員發言"},{"start":21874.393,"end":21879.86,"text":"部長你好 部長在這裡本身先幫你探討一下總結選委會的時間不太夠所以你回答本身說你不夠清楚"},{"start":21888.951,"end":21900.04,"text":"我告訴你清楚,今天半天來在這裡等你,在這裡就是說,假如要選舉選,假如是政府,以議席來規定,他會上來交通部,但假如是政府,無論如何,中央可以統籌進行綜合規劃及四部設計"},{"start":21918.215,"end":21937.789,"text":"補充,我用國語跟你說,跟你不清楚,我來講清楚來,補充,你知道自己去鐵路高架,在本社在正宗10月4日用公文跟你們討資料,看說有延宕還是有什麼問題,有沒有?你給本社的資料,說沒延宕,叫時間完成"},{"start":21947.691,"end":21963.36,"text":"部長,現在落後而已,落後的時候本身因為要自己探討,自己去願望在鐵路高架,未來所走所為"},{"start":21964.568,"end":21977.732,"text":"在這幾天的做,也很流利的,對北省有很多不方便的,你可不可以跟議員提出高價,延宕多久來,部長你回答一下。目前我了解,這個部份是順利進行了。順利!順利!部長!比原來的大概會延宕兩年的時間,會延後兩年完成。"},{"start":21994.77,"end":22004.478,"text":"補充 我覺得說實在的我委員會很關心地方的在這個時候 自己探討自己企業的建設但是你現在 原本是說一年兩年 我覺得是沒有應該的好到現在 我認真發表認真問你們的資料當然補充 要關台灣各館企業的交通重重的部分"},{"start":22023.712,"end":22036.936,"text":"若看得到：我可以向你探討的信你應該對交易市應該有一個概念 尤其交易市最大的建設就要跟這個體育高架而已不中：你說兩天 本席來講其實是你的回答、你的資料18、15年"},{"start":22051.209,"end":22052.511,"text":"若未能完整：已延至18、18年會告違"},{"start":22061.642,"end":22079.218,"text":"沒錯,這樣實在,你看煙多久,煙三噸耶,定於一個交通,一個鐵路高架做高檔的時候,還要煙三噸,還定於12噸耶,一個出事的,要到中間12月才看到我們的鐵路高架,會選擇出來"},{"start":22087.154,"end":22093.575,"text":"主委了解是有一個歷史的這個轉車台的這個部分在施工中要去做處理那細節我請這個局長跟您報告一下因為看怎麼克服這個問題"},{"start":22110.598,"end":22118.425,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我們在今年初在嘉義車站附近發掘到一個歷史的轉車台這我知道啦,我現在是跟你說你已經延宕在這裡面,是怎麼差距那麼大?正宗的年代,你剛才說都沒有延宕現在你剛才說延宕三宗的時候,那個日數的車站,不是現在才發生的啦"},{"start":22136.48,"end":22141.543,"text":"大家如果住在嘉義市,大家也知道火車站是在四月火車站跟在一起啊,你們要怎麼去克服啊這個是我們在挖掘過程中發現的地下的這個遺構,並不是那個嘉義車站我知道,你學會的時候,我教給你啊,教你學我教,可以延長三年嗎?"},{"start":22160.415,"end":22165.739,"text":"過去我們在臺南處理的經驗都會延宕到兩到三年團體什麼時候要考慮、要加強、要趕快"},{"start":22175.165,"end":22182.929,"text":"沿蕩下去整個都改變了．由於家鄉落腳、婆愛落腳、沙灶落腳．因為沿蕩了．還要沿蕩下去走．你剛才說到台南的問題．未來27的問題．我們要與人故事同源"},{"start":22197.25,"end":22210.915,"text":"要做得好,我會繼續追蹤,我今天公共會選,他們都決定,剛才你說清國的問題,現在延宕的問題,最主要延宕的問題,我認為有很多意見,有很多問題,我認為開會之後,你有時間,我有時間,大家來探討一下,因為大家都為了公共建設,要打拚,以上"},{"start":22228.923,"end":22252.342,"text":"感謝吳美惠委員發言完畢也請交通部請提督卿 針對吳美惠委員首席 針對教育師提督國界法相關議題提供完整的聽述和發言的依據：來跟吳美惠委員來合作共同完成教育這重要的交通建設"},{"start":22254.223,"end":22267.327,"text":"現在請突宣級委員發言：突宣級委員：突宣級委員不在現在請張宏祿委員：張宏祿委員：張宏祿委員不在現在請林月琴委員發言麻煩我們的部長請李部長"},{"start":22288.593,"end":22292.277,"text":"今天質詢主要有三個議題那之前我"},{"start":22293.132,"end":22317.225,"text":"上任之後我就質詢過可是始終交通部沒有辦法給我比較好的答案所以我就希望來今天你先上任之後希望給我具體的承諾首先事實上是無照駕駛那下一頁無照駕駛的部分這個會期初我在3月份的時候就提出質詢這個議題那交通部也回覆我不過回覆我的是一些法條是認為我這個立法委員"},{"start":22317.785,"end":22317.965,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22348.866,"end":22365.426,"text":"確實無照駕駛的問題是很嚴重也造成很多的損失那怎麼樣來加強這個防止包括取地等等我想目前我們的監理師有相關的一個措施我想請他跟您報告細節"},{"start":22368.229,"end":22368.749,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22385.18,"end":22412.534,"text":"在於這個就是說無照駕駛這一塊那這個委員這邊也有一些這個想法那是不是包括可以入刑法或等等那這個東西基本上市長不是只有我一個想法下一頁就是說我當時在質詢請交通部要針對於無照駕駛的違規的風險然後建議也比照酒駕那當時那時候提出來兩個要旨也就是說明定移植保管的車輛也就是扣車的規定那第二個是若實執行廉貸處罰加強審查"},{"start":22414.488,"end":22414.648,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22429.619,"end":22456.848,"text":"不是只有你們我覺得說也不是只有我在講因為你們自己當初交通部運營員手是你們的幕僚單位在111年的研究就做出來那過去我們在民間在金捐基金會的時候也做過無照駕駛的部分也提出類似的建議希望能夠針對於罰款以外提高罰款應該要有其他方法手段也就是能不能包括我們剛剛講車輛遺址的保管還有"},{"start":22459.469,"end":22481.975,"text":"就是所有的人的連帶責任要確實落實執行下一頁所以他剛剛講說有法規你都不執行法規更何況上次我提的那要扣車那我想問一下部長目前的進度呢就是針對我上次提的比照酒駕的裁罰的制度那目前進度是什麼"},{"start":22483.106,"end":22499.505,"text":"各位報告一下就是說這個要扣牌照的部分現在都有了那要扣車包括營運這個比照酒駕路法那個都是要就是修處法條例這很特別就是說你們在微電車個人行動器具的慢車的部分未滿14歲的都可以按照報告條例的72支2條"},{"start":22500.686,"end":22526.691,"text":"直接踩行禁止騎駕駛那更何況這些危險的一個駕駛人為什麼不能比照這個辦理?所以我覺得部長這個邏輯有通嗎?沒有 跟委員包括 裡面要扣車要這個扣車排站的部分一定是在條例本文裡面禁止騎行駛一定要有這樣文字警察在執行這個稽查的時候他才能扣車等等的部分所以我剛剛才跟委員報告就是說包括酒駕包括扣車等等都必須要修處罰條例"},{"start":22527.931,"end":22528.511,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22544.538,"end":22571.525,"text":"去規範到所謂的危險駕駛累犯可是這幾天你們的交通部又預告修法了要按違規程度來分級然後換發短期的駕照可是問題是你的進行據點的這個部分佔了七成那你先把管理的工具拿掉之後不是自費武功嗎那現在又說我們要駕駛人如果被吊銷執照要換發我們的短期駕照的時候我覺得這應該是很難啦因為你七成的東西你就已經抓不到啦然後現在不計點"},{"start":22572.225,"end":22572.385,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":22595.506,"end":22621.088,"text":"那針對於這是交通部回覆我的書面報告那時候講說交通違規的處罰有很多種違規祭典是累積性的然後因為很難規則責任因為查不到人所以我們就採心不要決定那個進取不祭典可是我想問部長不祭典如何汰換掉不適任的高風險的人因為這些人都是道路上強烈的侵略者"},{"start":22621.829,"end":22621.969,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":22647.185,"end":22666.156,"text":"更何況我上次就質詢過說交通部已經花大錢在做這個程式那如果當初你們因為這個祭典規則不容易去延伸到然後產生黃牛問題所以花大錢做的這個集合程式那到底是這個花大錢的集合程式沒在用不好用還是交通"},{"start":22666.636,"end":22667.437,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":22686.067,"end":22700.548,"text":"希望你們可以趕快若實然後針對我剛剛提的這些部分能夠做到好的回覆讓我知道說你們接下來要怎麼做我不知道部長一個禮拜可以嗎這是舊的東西"},{"start":22703.127,"end":22703.307,"text":"下一頁齁"},{"start":22716.681,"end":22744.742,"text":"所以我主張事實上應該建議你們全面檢討並修訂無照駕駛因為它社會成本這麼的高造成我們有千億的一個社會成本所以是不是無照駕駛的違規處罰跟管理機制那第二個重新檢討你要不要調高這個危險違規行為的處罰跟管理機制希望你加強加速去推動我們國內的考照制度的革新來全面檢討我們駕駛人管理機制再麻煩部長"},{"start":22746.324,"end":22755.258,"text":"不要再回覆我那樣的資料因為有的資料我等不到有的回我法條我就不要認為我是新科立委以上謝謝"},{"start":22756.817,"end":22777.744,"text":"好謝謝林耀勤委員發言完畢現在請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚英委員不在現在請鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在現在請張其凱委員張其凱委員張其凱委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":22791.338,"end":22795.98,"text":"邱志偉你們助理在找你趕快回去"},{"start":22813.362,"end":22814.844,"text":"最新的發言請交通部部長請你部長"},{"start":22824.551,"end":22847.506,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長你知道身心障礙權益保護法第53條規定是什麼跟交通部有關的 沒關係這個不需要被法調 第53條規定是運輸營運者必須要提供無障礙的運輸服務那在這個113年2月底的這個數據裡面 那市區客運提供無障礙的比例看起來蠻高的 有7乘3"},{"start":22849.076,"end":22850.037,"text":"一般公路的汽車客運大概是只剩下33.48"},{"start":22864.873,"end":22891.801,"text":"但是最慘的是國道客運你看上面的圖表可以知道只有8.75%也就是只有248台是無障礙的車輛我想請教部長公路局有做到督導國道客運業者提供無障礙車輛的義務跟責任嗎是我想提這個是法條的規定也是照顧身心障礙的這個這個國人同胞的這個權益所以我們有責無旁貸的責任"},{"start":22892.561,"end":22916.88,"text":"過去是認為增加無障礙車輛的話可能不符合經濟效應那另外一邊還有說法就是會壓縮到一般乘客的座位數那可以理解但是我必須強調在我們的身心障礙權益保護保障法裡面第53條的規定其實蠻明確的我們還是希望這個比例還是要有拉高的可能性因為未來這個高齡化的"},{"start":22919.082,"end":22946.37,"text":"他不僅是身心障礙者那高齡化的長者可能有時候也會需要類似這樣子的服務所以我們是政府有責無旁貸他不是只照顧多數人而已還有包括照顧弱勢的族群這都是必要而且必須要做的那我必須強調部長上任之後我認為在新任的這樣子的mandate可能很大的狀況之下最好能夠提供一些具體的做法是不是可以兩個禮拜內給我書面報告做相關的檢討"},{"start":22950.18,"end":22970.909,"text":"我想先請局長跟您報告目前的推動的這個政策好謝謝因為我還有其他的這個包含國道客運的預約機制所以我先簡單回應我大概兩個重點跟委員報告一下第一個部分市區公車的障礙是利用地理板那地理板的部分現在大概75%那未來到2030年全面電動化這些電動化的車子全部都是這個地理板"},{"start":22972.129,"end":22975.111,"text":"公務科研公務科研公務科研公務科研公務科研公務科研公務科研公務科研"},{"start":22992.839,"end":23014.067,"text":"那後面有一些這個路線班次可以更平均就是說班次更多的那部分我們會督促這個工種來做來做一個處理謝謝你剛剛提到班次我們就來講到這個國道客運的預約機制那如果要用這些無障礙的客運除了搭乘固定班次就剛才你提到的固定班次也更用預約的方式"},{"start":23015.031,"end":23044.413,"text":"那近一年用國道客運預約無障礙的車輛的這個數量是115人次那實際搭乘有大概接近500人次也就是說大家實際上面搭乘還是比預約人數多那這是非常正常的現象只是我是說這樣子的空間代表說預約機制還能夠改善還能夠再增加但是我們現在客運的預約管道沒有統一的入口介面比方說台灣好行的網站他無障礙約穿口跟無障礙的班次的時刻在不同的頁面喔"},{"start":23045.153,"end":23061.203,"text":"預約的資訊也不完整,大家可以參考一下我們的PowerPoint上面所講的那公路局的官網所統整的這些國道客運公司的訂票連結那每一個客運他的基本上他的訂票方式也不同,網站其實也沒有做一個統整的"},{"start":23061.923,"end":23084.39,"text":"所以我是想建議具體建議公路局是不是能夠第一個是不是能夠多處公安署來去確保補充臺灣好行官網的資訊讓這個無障礙預約的這個旅客可以直接點選超連結或者是各種無障礙的公車班次直接可以預約這個就是說使用介面的改善這個是我第一個具體建議第二個我是希望公路局能夠成立一個統一窗口"},{"start":23085.09,"end":23107.275,"text":"讓各業者的時刻表訂票的連結全部都放在一起不要再所善的分隔在各個不同的網頁上面那最後我就是說無障量的車輛當然是絕對數值上面我們當然是希望可以增加但是如果是現有的資源查詢不易或者是讓這個使用率降低那就是浪費所以這幾個部分是不是可以麻煩部長來去做一些改進"},{"start":23108.832,"end":23109.132,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":23130.485,"end":23155.921,"text":"個人是國防外交委員會那其實有很多外交人員都不斷的跟我們強調我們的巴士的公車站牌的這個識別性部長會看韓文嗎不會不會看韓文嗎那你不需要看因為上面有寫巴士站牌然後上面有管理號碼4560所以你就知道這是什麼意思這一個編號在哪裡我希望未來我們的這一個相關的車站的編號能夠具體的用這樣的數字"},{"start":23157.122,"end":23179.588,"text":"不會說一下是臺北車站然後路名青島臺北車站什麼中正然後臺北車站不需要就是不需要這種數不用漢字再去表現說這是哪一個你只要有一個完整的數字管理的號碼在上面上面寫著bus stop然後旁邊有一個具體的就是巴士的一個符號或者是說公車的符號這樣子更加的易懂對於觀光客來說更加友善對於在臺灣未來的這些"},{"start":23181.528,"end":23209.405,"text":"外交的這些相關人員一看便能夠了解到我們的交通運輸工具這個部分可不可以來討論來去做一個改進我們看好像每個縣市的公車的站牌標示不太一致我們來看怎麼樣可以非常感謝來去做一個統合好 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員發言完畢現在請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在現在請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":23217.715,"end":23243.796,"text":"謝謝主席最後一個質詢等於會變很差請交通部李部長休息一下這個高速公路局高工局副局長公路局陳局長民航局何局長中華航空謝四千董事長這個"},{"start":23247.403,"end":23274.766,"text":"高雄可以作為東南亞這個區域的這個轉運中心就小港機場所以未來這個小港機場我覺得這個航線可以增加因為很多轉機都是從東南亞來所以小港機場可以扮演分擔這個桃園機場轉機的一個功能而且它的地理系也方便那我發現這個不管是華航或者這個國際航空"},{"start":23276.676,"end":23282.244,"text":"在小港機場使用的這個飛機都比較老舊一點差不多737800齁差不多"},{"start":23285.503,"end":23311.613,"text":"規劃"},{"start":23312.492,"end":23330.717,"text":"所以因為小港機場沒有這個長城航線沒有北美沒有紐澳也沒有歐洲航線所以轉機的需求就變得少你可以示範一下我曾經在那邊不少執行幾次希望小港機場可以這個有長城航線的規劃不見得是"},{"start":23333.541,"end":23333.841,"text":"對南部人比較不公平"},{"start":23365.106,"end":23365.386,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":23395.206,"end":23400.607,"text":"這個應該不會啦有這種感覺啦另外這個航權航線的規劃這個這個民政局航線有關其實高雄要飛北美這個確實已經討論過很多遍然後這個主要還是考慮到航空公司本身經營的條件以前曾經長榮飛過來不過後來他發現這樣的一個可能還是經營業者來說明可能比較"},{"start":23421.152,"end":23421.432,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":23442.061,"end":23468.161,"text":"這個所謂的轉機的班機大概基本上都是在差不多宵禁的時間所以這個問題現在目前為止是比較難克服沒有你宵禁期間是12點嘛對不對希望你12點嘛12點我相信你可以安排在11點左右就飛出去應該沒有問題不要一直在研究啦見機旅居趕快這個看看這個七八月份有沒有可能有個幾個航班先試點看看飛北美"},{"start":23469.824,"end":23486.907,"text":"北美幾個熱門行列試看看,轉機客一來不得了好,謝謝那個告訴公務局,那個陸科陸科的聯絡到東延接到這個田寮交流道接到國道3號,這個在可行性研究"},{"start":23489.032,"end":23504.543,"text":"這個一定要成喔因為喔未來陸科橋科還有原本的永安工業區那個未來工業區聚落在那邊S郎大中心所以貨運客運需求非常的非常的大所以你沒有辦法把國道3號跟國道1號透過陸科聯繫起來"},{"start":23507.444,"end":23529.97,"text":"這個以後會形成很大的交通問題所以這個要謹記好不好是 這整個的話高雄市政府目前已經在做可行性研究那這個案子也是我提案的我們會來會來配合好 積極配合那台六十一縣的公務局剛才說台六十一縣是公務局嘛對 這個南延到高雄市區到南梓這也是我提案的對不對目前進度呢"},{"start":23530.811,"end":23546.908,"text":"這個部分我們可信研究齁因為他是從臺南曾文溪一直到藍紫指關那所以我們大概在今年的八月份這個可信研究我們公務局就會提出來好五月份八月份好謝謝非常準時"},{"start":23554.464,"end":23567.584,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝邱志偉委員那也請何局長跟謝士謙董事長針對相關小港機場的航線的增加以及相關客機的優化"},{"start":23569.066,"end":23594.999,"text":"希望能夠提出更具體的作為高雄的鄉親南部鄉親一直在抱怨為什麼我們要做舊的飛機小的飛機載體的客機這個都已經講了多次了那我們希望在下半年度希望有具體的改善那現在接下來是謝玉鳳委員"},{"start":23596.432,"end":23625.055,"text":"謝玉鳳委員．謝玉鳳委員不在．現在請莊瑞雄委員．莊瑞雄委員．莊瑞雄委員不在．現在請賴世寶委員．賴世寶委員．賴世寶委員．現在請林德福委員．林德福委員．林德福委員不在．現在請林思明委員．林思明委員．林思明委員不在．"},{"start":23627.17,"end":23656.095,"text":"也請李孟諺部長特別督促針對小港機場相關的航線增加以及對於客機的這樣的一個提升相關的座位以及服務的水準請李部長多嚴加的督促請坐登記執行委員軍禮發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢討完畢委員翁曉琳、莊岳雄、林楚英、圖全及黃仁所提書面質詢"},{"start":23657.195,"end":23671.501,"text":"列入紀錄並刊登公報．委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料．或未及答覆部分．請交通部盡速以書面答覆．本日議程處理完畢 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incarcerating the staff to present a brief explanation of the Act."},{"start":1970.762,"end":1971.542,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查•"},{"start":1992.688,"end":2013.439,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":2013.699,"end":2032.672,"text":" bicy 111年立法院經濟委員會曾經主條審查完整的法案,但是因為戒期的關係不續審。所以在112年的9月,我們因為植物醫師這醫師兩個字,特別是在醫師團體有一些意見,所以我們後來更名為植物診療師。"},{"start":2045.24,"end":2066.775,"text":" 第二部分就是跟各位委員說明的就是我們在送行政院版本帶行政院通過的版本的草案裡面大概有51條那整個51條大概分為幾個部分第一個總則的部分它包括立法目的主管機關等等那第二個部分是規劃職業的部分是第7條到第18條"},{"start":2067.836,"end":2076.678,"text":"bedingt to regulate its business scope, its subsequent education and career areas, and whether it can join the union, etc."},{"start":2076.678,"end":2088.72,"text":"The third part is the management of the entire植物診療機構, including the opening, manufacturing, name, and usage standards, as well as its fees."},{"start":2088.72,"end":2094.641,"text":"The fourth part is related to the penalty, which means that the植物診療師及診療機構的這個採取的是以無權責的一個機關。"},{"start":2096.661,"end":2108.122,"text":"再來就是有關於工會的一個組成的部分跟他的相關主管機關那還有其他的負責大概分為這六大部分那整個法案的重點我簡單的說明第一個部分就是"},{"start":2109.702,"end":2135.684,"text":"植物診療師的一個資格跟名稱那植物診療師未來會透過國家的一個考試來做一個選材那第二個部分是非常重要的就是植物診療師的職業的範圍那職業的範圍大概最主要是做簽證就是說有關於植物診療師專屬的業務可以辦理相關的植物有害生物的一個診斷鑑定的一個調查防治跟他的指導的部分"},{"start":2136.264,"end":2153.526,"text":" bicy 3 植物診療師法草案有相關的一個義務,這個義務就是說我們有時候會發現在台灣過去從未有發生的這些有害生物,也可以透過植物診療師的一個協助在24小時之內通報,讓我們整個的疫情的防疫能夠做得更周全。"},{"start":2155.659,"end":2179.086,"text":" bicy 2,我們也曾經跟所有的利害關係人做一些溝通。那針對農民端的部分,因為過去農民端本身的用藥可能靠他過去累積的經驗直接跟農藥行買。那我們希望說透過植物診療師能夠更精準的做一個協助,就是客製化的一個協助,來輔導我們的田間的一個精準的用藥。"},{"start":2180.006,"end":2196.515,"text":"adequure部分是農藥業者的一些疑慮啦。因為有些農藥業者他會擔心說那以後農藥購買的時候要他開業的時候是不是要具有植物診療師的一個資格。那這是一個誤解。就是其實植物診療師他不可以販售農藥。"},{"start":2197.896,"end":2198.916,"text":" unintent to"},{"start":2215.382,"end":2216.902,"text":" unintimidating part."},{"start":2216.902,"end":2237.049,"text":"那第三個部分是有一些現有的跟農業有關的技師他們也擔心說有這樣的一個植物診療師的話會不會影響他們的一個工作權那在這邊也跟各位所有的委員說明就是他不會影響農業技師的一個職業的權利那相關的他的一個職業的權利還是都存在的那只是說"},{"start":2238.183,"end":2253.456,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":2253.456,"end":2283.456,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":2283.456,"end":2312.517,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":2312.657,"end":2314.098,"text":" unintendant to"},{"start":2332.95,"end":2350.738,"text":" bicy 3,我們希望是僅針對植物診療師的證書善事執行專屬簽證示意者給予相關的處罰而不是所有的都給予處罰因為現在目前我們所有的試驗改良場所同時也在做相關的一個服務鑑定的一個工作如果說"},{"start":2351.852,"end":2380.947,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":2382.368,"end":2403,"text":" bicy 4, 針對楊瓊瓔委員等人所提案的版本,這個版本有幾個建議,就是說要希望說能夠明定植物診療師的一個消極資格,然後同時我們也建議說就是診療師不得將植物診療證書或執照借給他人使用的一個規範,另外就是我們希望陣列有關於"},{"start":2404.261,"end":2426.239,"text":" bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消除時應該可以重復開業。 bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消除時應該可以重復開業。 bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消除時應該可以重復開業。 bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消除時應該可以重復開業。 bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消除時應該可以重復開業。 bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消除時應該可以重復開業。 bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消除時應該可以重復開業。 bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消除時應該可以重復開業。 bicy 保障身心障礙者若原因消"},{"start":2435.263,"end":2456.501,"text":"最後還是感謝所有的委員就是針對植物診療師法提供了一些具體的草案的一個建議。其實植物診療師法我們希望說用更高的未接的法律跟專業人員來強化來協助我們農民的一些用藥然後甚至於可以從事更客製化的一個用藥"},{"start":2457.262,"end":2478.375,"text":"adequare 作為將有助於國家植物災害防控的一個量能然後落實我們的食安的一個源頭管理那透過同時植物診療師法規範透過國家的一個選材認證可以更凸顯我們政府對於農產品安全的一個重視及維護自然生態永續發展的決心那以上報告經濟委員指教好謝謝我們陳部長的報告好"},{"start":2490.646,"end":2501.216,"text":"楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查),6"},{"start":2509.053,"end":2534.787,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊瓔法院本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人有鑒於近年民眾食安意識的提高培養國人專業農業之能與正確的飲食觀念刻不容緩又加上我國地形氣候獨特溫熱帶作物均可栽種意識和各類有害生物生長的繁殖"},{"start":2535.247,"end":2551.817,"text":""},{"start":2551.917,"end":2553.138,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查"},{"start":2576.795,"end":2579.096,"text":"),一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具:「植物診療師法草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查"},{"start":2602.968,"end":2619.872,"text":"當然這個醫師跟目前我們的八大行業的這個醫師那有所名稱模糊所以呢我們經過了協商以醫師是不妥的所以呢在協商的過程當中來改為植物診療師這是第一點來說明第二個在我們的農藥行是我們國家的寶貝所以因此植物診療師他並不能販售農藥"},{"start":2629.974,"end":2646.817,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":2646.817,"end":2670.009,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":2678.971,"end":2680.156,"text":"好接下來我們請"},{"start":2682.09,"end":2712.09,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":2717.42,"end":2717.56,"text":"陳部長陳部長"},{"start":2729.017,"end":2747.464,"text":"市長好,我剛剛聽到您的一個植物診療師法的一個報告啦,你一開始講說這個法很重要,可是我覺得很有趣的是因為今天我們審的法當中的時候,三個版本都是委員的版本,其實沒有行政院的版本,你可以說明一下除了借其不延續的原因,"},{"start":2749.98,"end":2770.305,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,就是行政院因為屆期不續審齁,所以我們重新再安排院會去通過,因為照我們的一個規範就是我們所有送進立法院的版本一定要經過院會的同意,那其實我們也真的期待齁,就是委員在審查的時候能夠有,能夠等到我們行政院版本送進來來一併審查,這樣的話更能夠去確認齁,整個的未來的一個什麼方向。"},{"start":2775.646,"end":2803.409,"text":"嗯,就是行政部門對這事情的關注度不及我們立法委員關注度啦所以我在想說我們今天已經在審這個就是植物診療師法的時候所以我在想說這只是特別點一個狀態就是說如果真的關心的時候腳步要加快好不好那我在想說從2017年開始到現在那我知道說我們之前原本是用那個植物醫生這樣一個名詞那說實話農業部這邊可能也儲備了很多植物醫生請問到目前為止總共有多少人?"},{"start":2803.809,"end":2825.723,"text":"我們現在目前在各縣市政府跟各感染場大概有100位的儲備的植物醫師。是,已經有100位的儲備醫生了嘛,對不對?那我想請問一下,我們這個儲備醫生當時在提這個部分的時候,他有特別提到說,我們希望從2017年再推這個植物醫生,現在叫植物診療師,那到2027年希望10年的時間能夠讓農藥減半嘛,對不對?請問到目前為止進度如何?"},{"start":2833.322,"end":2835.886,"text":"我跟委員說明,現在農藥的一個減半,我們是強調在農藥的風險的減半。農藥風險的減半,不是農藥量的減半。對,是農藥風險的一個,就是"},{"start":2848.465,"end":2850.986,"text":"對於高劇毒的農藥我們會加速它退場那我記得現在目前為止我們的劇毒農藥退場已經達到75%了超過一半了"},{"start":2867.917,"end":2885.937,"text":"對,因為有一些農藥它用的量可能比較多但是它的風險是比較低的所以我們有針對它的風險只是做加權這也是目前全世界的共同規範所以我們期待說在2007年能夠達到風險減半的目標我們希望還是能夠打草"},{"start":2886.857,"end":2898.602,"text":"所以是風險減半不是藥量減半嗎?那我想問一下,因為像農民在用藥的時候很多都是預防性的下藥,那真正在預防性下藥的時候我們植物診療師要怎麼樣子開這個處方?"},{"start":2902.026,"end":2921.817,"text":" 我跟委員說明一下就是整個病床外的一個防治特別是在床外的時候它會隨著密度會有一個曲線的急速生長期你在這個曲線的急速生長期之前防治才最有效果那太早跟太晚都沒有用像預防性的這些噴藥其實對有一些它的會浪費你的農藥的錢"},{"start":2922.858,"end":2940.981,"text":"​​​​​​"},{"start":2941.101,"end":2955.21,"text":"adequure 農藥推廣這樣子的一個使命的意思是這樣子嗎是他是一個客製化的一個服務所以他本身是可以開業的那相對的部分就是所以說之後我們對整個植物診療師的一個量"},{"start":2957.811,"end":2980.251,"text":"就是您原本在預估的時候,當我們開始證照制度之後的時候,大概預計的人數會多少人?我們預估大概是,totally大概是3000人。那這些3000人有一部分會配置在,如果說農會或是縣市政府,他也可以聘請。那聘請的過程中,他可以用一個...可以預計有3000人喔?那我想問一下就是說,針對這個部分,那麼之後,"},{"start":2982.273,"end":2983.694,"text":"disciplinary 6"},{"start":3012.373,"end":3041.477,"text":" bicy 買農藥就一定要診療師要有開診斷,沒有這件事情。所以沒有說買農藥一定要這個植物診療師處方,沒有這樣子的問題,對不對?所以那植物診療師他這當中你怎麼樣去發揮他的影響力,能夠讓他真正達到我們農業部希望他達到的一個使命?我想非常重要的就是植物診療師能夠更精準的診斷他是哪一類的病害,哪一類的蟲藥,那接下來就可以用非常精準的用藥能夠做一個防治。"},{"start":3041.877,"end":3046.022,"text":"愈會增加農民在用藥當中的成本,會不會?愈會增加農民在用藥當中的成本,會不會?愈會增加農民在用藥當中的成本,會不會?愈會增加農民在用藥當中的成本,會不會?"},{"start":3057.978,"end":3072.995,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":3072.995,"end":3088.609,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3088.609,"end":3104.019,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3104.099,"end":3130.104,"text":"adequ毛小孩認養的人數低那持續的擴大當中那針對這個所謂的寵物溝通師我們農業部有沒有打算要進行一些行政指引或者是管理的一個機制我想跟委員說明就是所謂的寵物溝通師他並沒有真正的所謂的科學的一個證據那基本上我們是不會去認同有這樣的一個溝通師到目前為止"},{"start":3131.084,"end":3154.923,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":3154.923,"end":3179.531,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3179.831,"end":3207.69,"text":"最後我想特別提一個狀態就是農業部在113年度的投資收益預算數比112年度的預算數減少2億036萬2千元減幅高達24.6%我在想說這個部分我去看了一下裡面的分析其中跟台肥有關我想說你們認為台肥的投資收益明顯減少的部分跟我們今天在推的植物診療師有沒有關係"},{"start":3209.231,"end":3229.319,"text":" 我跟委員報告齁,就是台肥本身的盈餘有一些降低,最主要是他在COVID-19整個原物料上漲的時候,他吸收了50%的原物料的一個成本,上漲的一個成本,讓我們的農民可以買到原價的肥料。"},{"start":3229.759,"end":3243.629,"text":" bicy,他這個部分算是一個社會的一個經驗診斷。去113年度農業部這邊的一個投資社會的預算數大幅減低的時候,你覺得是跟我們今天要推的就是植物診療師這部分是沒有關係的?因為他本身台北不賣農藥。"},{"start":3244.838,"end":3267.261,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":3272.935,"end":3274.436,"text":"主席,我想請部長。我們再請陳部長。陳部長早安。"},{"start":3290.501,"end":3313.254,"text":"請問部長有關外國進口的長效乳不應該稱之為鮮乳本席在4月11號就曾經要求農業部應向食藥署說明這些保存期限兩個月甚至三個月的進口牛乳不應該叫做鮮乳那個時候部長也同意要發文您記得嗎?"},{"start":3318.003,"end":3322.806,"text":"是。是。那這個結果呢,食藥署在這個月5號的時候發出了預告。我覺得他們是羨慕於不易啊。他說他們依照農業部的建議,要幫這些進口乳品標示為長效鮮乳。"},{"start":3334.514,"end":3351.834,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3352.011,"end":3352.031,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":3369.125,"end":3371.928,"text":" unintendation to the committee or the relevant expert meeting."},{"start":3371.928,"end":3396.409,"text":"那非常重要就是說他現在是法案的一個預告期那這個預告期的部分任何人都可以提供意見那農業部也會再次的提供我們的意見因為我們的意見我們也跟我們的弱農都有討論過所以農業部會持續的去跟衛生部溝通希望能夠用長效乳這樣的一個名稱因為它是一個市場區隔的一個非常重要的一個手段"},{"start":3396.749,"end":3419.882,"text":"是,部長我覺得您說這番話呢我非常的贊同因為呢很多酪農喔這些生技喔都非常的擔憂你知道嗎上一頁我要上一頁上一頁你我不能理解的是為什麼你要讓他有兩個選擇呢你是在把他做這個智力測驗嗎為什麼要給他有選擇說可以用到鮮乳呢"},{"start":3420.502,"end":3435.996,"text":" 我想我們在提供這樣的一個名稱的時候我們有召開了專家會議包括洛農那當初討論的兩個方案那我們是終於整個的當初討論的這些方案裡面我們提供他做參考"},{"start":3437.237,"end":3440.519,"text":"但是重要的是我們的建議是什麼,我們有寫下來了。那我可不可以拜託這個部長,請部長是不是盡速地再發文給衛福部,請他就明確地寫說不要用鮮乳這個字眼,直接寫長效乳,因為你長效鮮乳誤導消費者的空間還是非常的大。"},{"start":3460.889,"end":3479.559,"text":"我跟委員說明齁就是我們新政府本身在部會之間就有一個非常好的溝通的管道那公文絕對不是只有公文來公文去所以我們也持續已經持續的在跟衛福部在做一個有效的溝通那我們希望說因為所以部長有信心衛福部會把鮮乳這個鮮字拿掉嗎?我們"},{"start":3480.299,"end":3500.043,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":3500.043,"end":3526.402,"text":" bicy 本席在這裡呼籲啊因為保護農民保護落農是你的天職所以請部長一定要落實這件事情一定要強烈的去呼籲因為假設我是落農我光看這個文我心裡想說哎呀其實農業部好像也沒有很支持我們嘛他還給他選擇給他A案跟B案假案跟疑案選擇然後後面才只有"},{"start":3527.142,"end":3535.445,"text":"adequure小小的字說優先採用議案評估辦理我覺得這樣子對落農來說是不足的我希望農業部的這個態度可以更堅定可以堅定說不要用先辱這個字來欺負我們台灣的落農"},{"start":3544.568,"end":3545.669,"text":"但是呢本席跟所有的弱農我們都希望看到農業部更堅定的立場"},{"start":3565.23,"end":3588.746,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":3588.786,"end":3591.467,"text":"應該每百台間大概950、930左右。沒錯。那相比去年呢,這是大大的降了。大大的降了超過10%以上。那雲林縣大概有200公頃以上的稻田都是倒了。"},{"start":3606.132,"end":3612.874,"text":"那為打天然災害救助辦法,很多農民擔心說這個會越來越嚴重,因為倒了就沒有人願意割,甚至輕割。這個價格非常的差,那農民真的很兩難。對於農民這樣的無奈,請問部長可以怎麼幫助他們呢?"},{"start":3622.978,"end":3649.974,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":3649.974,"end":3672.637,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":3672.637,"end":3700.623,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3700.623,"end":3716.476,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":3716.716,"end":3733.205,"text":"還是可以收割但價格不好啊所以這就不符合保險嘛所以本席建議啊就是說整體未達天然災害這個標準農業部的部分是不是可以提出說這個第一期稻米"},{"start":3733.985,"end":3760.009,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3760.009,"end":3785.725,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3786.857,"end":3790.14,"text":"因為農林自災保險沒有審查辦法,他沒有把這個心血管疾病納在這個辦法裡面。那部長知道一般的勞工如果遇到這個情況會怎麼處理呢?針對勞工部分,治安署有"},{"start":3804.155,"end":3830.35,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3831.03,"end":3852.326,"text":"那個有一點有一點誤解齁其實我們的認定齁只要他去看醫生醫生專業認定我們就同意他都死在田裡了他後續他在醫院的時候只要醫院認定就可以沒有問題是現在醫生沒辦法認定就是醫生沒辦法認定所以你需要一個指引讓醫生去認定沒有現在醫生本身他沒辦法認定因為呢"},{"start":3856.989,"end":3862.715,"text":"adequ非常多的醫生他沒有辦法開因爲從事農務而死亡的證明他沒有辦法開因爲你沒有指引如果他的死亡地點部長你要在這裡跟我狡辯嗎我沒有表現喔你只是需要定一個清楚的指引讓醫生可以有所依據這樣你做不到嗎"},{"start":3878.752,"end":3903.561,"text":"我們現在已經有請所有的相關的職業專業醫師在做相關的指引你願不願意給他們指引我願意而且我們現在已經有在做那我是說現在的情況他比職業還寬鬆只要專業醫師認定就可以就是希望你可以盡速有一個指引那如果部長有相關的資料請送本委員會謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":3908.63,"end":3932.827,"text":"請就這樣子的案子齁,農委會跟那個保險公司要去理清楚。因為你任何一個醫師他不可能跟你開說你他沒在現場。他怎麼跟你開?因你耕作死亡,沒辦法。那有一個辦法,他是在農地上倒掉,他可以有證據。所以可能那個保險公司溝通一下,好,是請跟那個"},{"start":3935.573,"end":3944.838,"text":"我們要請跟那個保險公司去說明清楚他如果是倒在那裡的當然是在那邊工作啊對不對好謝謝來接下來我們請陳丁飛委員請做詢問謝謝謝謝主席我們請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":3959.505,"end":3961.466,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。"},{"start":3990.06,"end":4006.459,"text":""},{"start":4006.823,"end":4033.95,"text":"昨天的結論是這樣第一因為一開始魏福布說是你們訓務司給的資料就已經把先放進去了所以他們是依照你們的既然你們農業部這樣的一個認定那麼他們也沒有問題因為現在是預告所以昨天講得非常的清楚你們有給了兩個資料兩個版本裡面居然把先放進去"},{"start":4035.191,"end":4062.579,"text":"所以我們才說原來迅牧師他整個狀況跟洛農溝通的部分實質報上去給中央又是另外一回事所以這昨天都解決了也就是為福布他沒有堅持然後迅牧師也說站在洛農的立場他們也堅持不要把鮮放進去台灣鮮乳就是14天以內"},{"start":4064.621,"end":4089.788,"text":" 14天以內 限老或限慢的啦 這樣聽得懂嗎 就是我限裁的 這個才是先辱啦所謂的長效 所謂的保久 是因為時間 保存期限的時間而有所不同的 這個不能放作先章的一個字眼在裡面 這個很清楚"},{"start":4090.848,"end":4117.09,"text":"我們一定要分野在標示當中就要分得很清楚了所以這個是昨天的決議第二個就是血統乳的部分昨天國教署說是因為我們訓務師從頭到尾都沒跟他保證配送沒有問題所以他們不敢採用薄酒乳那我們訓務師說配送沒有問題所以"},{"start":4120.72,"end":4146.422,"text":" ︎國教署就說,如果配送沒有問題,他們當然要給小孩子喝最營養的,最新鮮的,所以我們要把它分開,配送沒有問題的地方。 ︎當時我就說了嘉義雲林、宜蘭人家在縣市執行血統乳用鮮奶都沒有問題,怎麼可能我們有問題。 ︎"},{"start":4149.216,"end":4163.729,"text":"現在畜牧師說沒有問題,配送沒有問題,國教署就改啦。國教署就說如果配送沒有問題,他們也沒有問題。所以,追溯所有的原因就是因為我們農業部嘛。"},{"start":4165.382,"end":4180.396,"text":"我會說一分,30秒就好。我想在整個的一個協商過程中,特別是跟教育部前部長在協商的時候是我親自去的。我也沒有,我覺得我們政府是一體的,我也不便去批評"},{"start":4181.357,"end":4206.254,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4207.054,"end":4227.345,"text":"我們的問題是在於長效乳又加了一個長效鮮乳沒有我們的建議是長效乳昨天在現場你們說衛福部說有一份資料對他不好意思拿出來那是你們畜牧師給他的裡面就有鮮好這個我先不管是部長我只要跟你說結論昨天大家談得非常的開心對"},{"start":4235.922,"end":4263.152,"text":"就是在這預告期結束然後要正式把這些資料呈現的時候就是要把鮮拿掉台灣鮮乳就是14天以內的才能說鮮乳其他超過這個時間點的都不能稱為鮮乳你要讓消費者能夠很清楚的判斷這才是重要的什麼是鮮乳什麼是長效乳什麼是薄酒乳"},{"start":4264.741,"end":4289.942,"text":"那是用你們的保存期限在看的嘛。14天以內的才是鮮乳。這個非常確定的。第二個你們的標示也就是在店家的標示要很清楚。台灣鮮乳台灣薄酒乳跟進口的這個要分得很清楚。標示要標示清楚。第三"},{"start":4291.414,"end":4319.349,"text":"也就是我們學童乳只要是我們在配送無餘的狀態之下我們全面都要用鮮乳台灣鮮乳讓我們的學童來喝如果在偏遠偏鄉地方沒有辦法配送因為我們現在都有食農教育嘛食農教育什麼才是食的安全我們可以用教導教育啊"},{"start":4320.993,"end":4327.378,"text":"所以如果在配送有問題的部分那麼當然我們才用台灣薄酒乳"},{"start":4328.642,"end":4356.035,"text":"這分得很清楚。昨天講的結論就是這個樣子。所以部長拜託就依循這個不要再變了。不要再變了。我想也非常謝謝委員召開這樣的一個發布會的協商。那相關的結論也非常清楚。而且也是我們本部的立場。所以我們一定是朝這個方向。第一個相關的長效乳因為全職還是在維護部我們一定會盡力的去溝通。會達到我們的目標就是長效乳的目標。"},{"start":4356.715,"end":4359.758,"text":"議長,如果你們有委屈啦,你告訴我們啦。我們來替你發聲啦。不要永遠變成說若龍覺得你應該跟他站在一起,怎麼會變成最後什麼都沒了。這是重點齁,好。那第二個部分,部長你知道我在審預算的時候,"},{"start":4380.083,"end":4396.256,"text":"一直以來我對於我們整個後壁蘭花園區我們把它變成政府中央政府的一個主管我一直在說所以很感謝部長我們核定了計劃"},{"start":4406.02,"end":4414.305,"text":"爭取了台灣蘭花生物科技園區我們升級計畫從114年到117年7.28億花卉產業創新園區中長城公共建設計畫114年到119年89.85億感謝我們一路爭取終於否則我覺得我們好像是三等捏"},{"start":4432.898,"end":4457.826,"text":"我們的後壁國際蘭花園區說真的這是非常響叮噹而且是有國際水準的阿我們辦個安那亂七八糟謝謝現在在我們爭取之下已經合訂了這樣的一個計畫那麼部長我要請問我們現在要做的除了有公共管線、消防安全、交通綠美化還有治療水管線的部分"},{"start":4458.899,"end":4475.094,"text":""},{"start":4475.314,"end":4498.492,"text":"然後呢我們要擴充開發基地120公頃將規劃進駐業者自建溫室用地55.54公頃然後呢再把所有相關的自紅池還有廠房用地綠袋等等這有10.81公頃這是在第二集中長城要把它擴展出去了對不對"},{"start":4500.267,"end":4522.409,"text":"好,所以這個預算已經非常清楚。好,114年就是明年了。預算確定編了嗎?我跟委員報告,我們預算已經送到行政院去。已經送到行政院了齁?行政院會經過那個國安會審核以後,最後會核定。好,已經送了齁?對,我們在過程中,我們一定會努力的去"},{"start":4523.37,"end":4544.957,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":4545.919,"end":4556.433,"text":"這個你剛剛所講的今年的這些預算就是要用在我們2025面對亞太覽展這樣的一個準備我們現在有幾項要必須做的"},{"start":4557.841,"end":4576.271,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4576.391,"end":4588.408,"text":"知道好所以拜託剛剛部長已經有說了今年今年的預算我們要優先在這幾樣尤其我們所需要的預算"},{"start":4589.497,"end":4609.548,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4609.548,"end":4626.118,"text":"​​​​​​"},{"start":4626.318,"end":4640.171,"text":" bicy 針對基礎設施的改善,我們也已經抱怨去爭取相關的一些額外的預算來支持這樣的一個基礎工程,這樣的話台南都來得及明年的亞太覽展甚至於國際覽展,這個我們要來努力。所以這預算喔,剛剛我講的這個部分,這個預算就要5235萬,這個部分喔,所以要拜託,因為亞太覽展這是我們的名字。"},{"start":4651.301,"end":4653.282,"text":"接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢談。"},{"start":4681.459,"end":4684.321,"text":"謝謝主席,請陳部長。我們請陳部長。部長,你好。今天我們要來審查這個植物診療師法。在之前的叫植物醫師法,那時候大家很多的意見,也推了十幾年。那是一次特別改成那個植物診療師法。"},{"start":4708.541,"end":4726.271,"text":" »:對。"},{"start":4726.411,"end":4750.236,"text":" bicy 未來這個診療師的話就可以做一個諮詢的工作也可以做一個教育也做一個輔導我們農民對不管是植物還是農耕各方面都可以給他們用經驗或是用專業醫療的方式對植物的醫療這方式對於診治跟防疫各方面都可以做最大的協助跟幫忙對不對是"},{"start":4751.636,"end":4757.218,"text":" bicy 當下我們在學校的話也有在開這個課程,針對我們的植物教學的這個醫院來做一個培訓我們的人才。培訓之後的話他們畢業之後的話也要經過考試,是不是?是。考試有得到這個證照才可以去幫我們的農民做一些諮詢的工作吧。對,他是透過國家考試。是。那未來他們會在哪個單位服務呢?"},{"start":4778.363,"end":4801.305,"text":" 我想國家考試是一個證照,然後就看產業的一個需求。那相對的以現在我們針對儲備醫師的一個概念,很多農會因為儲備醫師,我們配置的儲備醫師,他們覺得說對農民真的有幫助。所以我們也做了一些問卷,他們未來也願意自己來聘,然後有一部分是配合我們改良…"},{"start":4802.466,"end":4827.517,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4827.517,"end":4844.377,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4844.497,"end":4867.092,"text":"那根據我們現有的資料,大概在108年的時候,紅毫雨的整個的一個發生大概是25.9%,那到去年已經降到17%,這是一件。那我們平均每年大概投入將近400萬左右的一個經費。400萬?400萬,平均啊。平均你是說一個地方還是全部?桃園地區。桃園地區。桃園地區。桃園地區400萬,你的總經費是4000萬?"},{"start":4871.135,"end":4872.017,"text":"對,桃園地區2022年2022年是4000是4000多萬嘛對不對4000多萬"},{"start":4880.12,"end":4903.857,"text":" bicy 3,000多塊4千萬左右不過這個資料可能還要再確認那我跟委員說明就是說未來植物診療師因為紅蘿蟻有他的熱區有他的熱區那診療師有他的專業的時候他能夠判斷那個熱區用精準的用藥精準用藥好 這個我必須要跟主委來部長來這邊討論就是您知道在2022年的時候你的經費是4,426萬到2024年是剩下3,567萬您說"},{"start":4909.321,"end":4913.102,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查),"},{"start":4928.217,"end":4934.504,"text":"我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":4943.374,"end":4970.509,"text":"我跟委員說明齁,整個的一個紅瓦椅的房子齁,中央跟地方有它的一個分工。那相關的權責在地方政府,而且中央是給予一些額外的一個補助,那地方政府...所以你要看面積來補助啊?那你是看地方補助還是看面積補助?土地的管理的權責機構本身,好像桃園市本身它的財政的部分是比較高的,所以它本身也付了更多的經費在處理這個紅瓦椅。"},{"start":4972.79,"end":4990.691,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4990.791,"end":4994.252,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。"},{"start":5016.237,"end":5034.718,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5035.526,"end":5064.78,"text":"怎麼協助?我想,診療師法本身他有他的一個專業訓練。那針對紅狗魚的防治,他有一定的防治的一個規範。那最重要就是說,他對於熱區的判斷,會有更精準的判斷。桃園是熱區的嗎?對,所以相對的,沒有,就管桃園地區也有一些熱區,他會根據他的移動脈動。所以他的發生率已經下降了。面積雖然還在那邊,但是他的發生率從25點多已經降到17了。那我們希望說,一起跟地方政府一起努力。"},{"start":5065.12,"end":5091.048,"text":"今天本席會提這個問題就是一個老農已經七八十歲了他對這紅火蟻我們的診治這十幾年來沒有做好所以他很憂心因為這個紅火蟻不只他會咬人喔還會吃我們的農作物而且對我們公共設施啊也會有傷害所以在這種影響整個層面這麼大的情況之下我們要下定決心去做診治去做防疫這個好不好"},{"start":5091.428,"end":5092.028,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查),"},{"start":5113.114,"end":5126.442,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5127.644,"end":5148.198,"text":" »: 國土法影響最大的就是農民,那部長您在這邊能不能為農民發聲,可以讓我們更周全更了解,因為未來的話整個我們的國土分區的這功能圖一定要送出來,這個月底就要送出來了,但是各縣市都還沒有送出來,那如何去讓我們的國土的功能能夠分區?"},{"start":5149.159,"end":5171.727,"text":"我講第一個部分就是我們會再更積極的態度去跟縣市政府溝通因為是縣市政府劃出來的那第二個部分我要在這邊特別鄭重的跟各位委員說明齁就是國度法所劃分的農一跟農二只要你從事農業是完完全全百分之百沒有受影響你只要你從事農業 那我們也陸續的再去下降 這不是說農一農二 這農一到農五都會影響欸"},{"start":5177.089,"end":5201.007,"text":"對我們所有的這些不同縣市的這些畫社然後他的畫社可能有一部分是對於那個指引畫社指引的認知有點誤解所以我們也積極的去溝通那相對的我希望說讓農民放心就是你從事農業絕對沒有影響而且我們未來會針對農一農二有一些政策上的一些改變去來協助他來支持他們"},{"start":5201.527,"end":5219.428,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5219.508,"end":5237.513,"text":" »: 按照既定的一個時辰明年4月30號在這個過程中我們一定會更積極的去跟縣市政府協商還有跟農民去相關的座談讓他們更瞭解國土規劃是其實對台灣的土地的永續是一個非常好的一個作為所以我們還是要保障農民的權益了好不好好瞭解"},{"start":5258.211,"end":5261.335,"text":"楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查),"},{"start":5270.307,"end":5295.34,"text":"委員長大家好我們今天排錄的這個植物診療師那照剛剛治療師照剛剛您的說明那這個植物診療師呢大家有一個共識那是必須要做但是呢在整個過程有所誤解的也要去說明清楚那行政院版什麼時候會出來呢"},{"start":5296.949,"end":5323.402,"text":"我想行政院的部分我們正在安排就是進到院會去預計什麼時候呢?既然是一個這麼重大的法為什麼到現在還沒有出來呢?行政院不重視嗎?我想這不是行政院不重視這可能是我們內部的一些作業的一個疏失那請問你承認疏失你為行政院扛起了這個責任那什麼時候會送出來呢?"},{"start":5324.522,"end":5352.368,"text":"我們期待是能夠在下個禮拜的院會喔能夠能夠排入好我們也希望農業部你要積極因為委員所提案大概都是48條的條例那據聞你行政院版農業部所提出的大概是51條我們為了整個法案的慎重慎重因為條序方面必須要去做調整"},{"start":5353.248,"end":5372.113,"text":" ︎所以我們今天先巡打。我們要目的也就是在整個立法的過程要非常的完整。但是也要請農業部你務必要積極。那接下來本席要請教的國土法明年5月要上路會嗎?"},{"start":5374.508,"end":5390.626,"text":"我們所有的農民、人民很害怕耶。照現在的一個期程是明年應該4月底5月要上路耶。對啊。那現在繳成有沒有調整?因為法院有說要延一年、延兩年,那到底是怎麼回事呢?"},{"start":5391.82,"end":5411.317,"text":"我講整個國土法我們會配合內政部跟然後我們也積極的下鄉去跟包括跟縣市政府去做溝通包括跟農民去做...明年的4月底5月要上路到現在你到鄉你到地方去聽老百姓很緊張不清不楚不瞭解站在你農業部的立場務必"},{"start":5412.858,"end":5431.817,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5431.817,"end":5448.933,"text":""},{"start":5449.104,"end":5471.015,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":5471.015,"end":5501.015,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":5501.335,"end":5530.206,"text":" unintendent to the quality of the job of these plant therapists and consumers.因為這個是非常重要。接下來本席要跟你討論的也就是紐西蘭的液態乳在2025年就可以零關稅輸入到臺灣。哇!我們的農農很緊張耶!這怎麼辦?這怎麼辦?我們要自立自強。請教我們的鮮乳到底是幾天算鮮乳啊?"},{"start":5531.634,"end":5552.919,"text":"應該是7天。幾天剩鮮乳?我們國內的是14天。國內14天嗎?國外在他國家幾天?國外在他國家幾天?他可能會根據他的製造的程序不一樣而有不一樣的天數。基礎就是以兩個禮拜為基本嘛。鮮乳嘛。對不對?好!所以!"},{"start":5555.44,"end":5581.078,"text":"衛福部的食藥署6月5號來一個預告!預告!我加在一起預告!要公告就糟糕了!預告!你們要推出意見!修正先乳標示草案保存期限30天以上的乳品應標示為延長叫什麼?延長保存期限先乳!或者是長效先乳!"},{"start":5582.654,"end":5608.695,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5608.976,"end":5612.439,"text":"我們在超商它的那個溫度幾度啊?冰箱開來開去還有開放式架的這個開架開放式的幾度?大概7度到10度吧"},{"start":5625.435,"end":5653.046,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":5654.537,"end":5660.301,"text":"時要數到底怎麼回事?你們都沒有溝通嗎?為什麼要讓民眾這麼模糊呢?而且風險高?為什麼?會不會改?時要數6月5號這個只有預告啊!預告就是可以改啊!"},{"start":5679.548,"end":5695.179,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":5695.998,"end":5718.066,"text":"我個人是有信心啦有信心一定要加油好不好這個不能讓學童科宣啦這個是最好的台灣最棒的啊台灣的酪農最棒的啊那你要有長效乳我們也給予同意但是你名稱要分隔清楚啊幹嘛要混淆視聽北京絕對不同意因為有高風險"},{"start":5723.702,"end":5735.848,"text":"厲?7度到10度怎麼樣會有鮮乳這樣子保存30天以上太恐怖了好不好把這個高風險要去除不能如此最後一個議題講到這個雞蛋現在雞蛋太多這怎麼辦他們也淘汰了寡產雞所以我們的雞農很努力欸寡產雞他們都在淘汰那在目前的這個數量來看"},{"start":5750.492,"end":5768.408,"text":"我們投入的生產機有3569萬隻。現在每一天生產121,700箱。平均國內人民需要的大概是12萬箱一天。那你多出來那麼多,他之後怎麼辦?"},{"start":5768.408,"end":5771.892,"text":"賤價。你知道嗎?甚至有把雞蛋就再去給豬吃耶。"},{"start":5773.439,"end":5796.408,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":5796.408,"end":5825.299,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5825.639,"end":5827.12,"text":"市長,現在我們看到的你目前的政策結果論還是產銷不平衡。"},{"start":5844.565,"end":5873.933,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":5874.113,"end":5875.793,"text":"好,接下來我們請邱議員委員邱昭偉請發言。"},{"start":5909.522,"end":5909.984,"text":"我們再請陳部長。"},{"start":5920.317,"end":5944.999,"text":"欸部長早部長我想我們今天討論這個植物診療師法齁其實在上一屆的時候我們也提過這個植物醫師法的相關的版本是也進入了討論那因為藉其不連續加上有一些特別的因素所以植物醫師法就無疾而終了那我們現在在談這個植物診療師喔剛剛部長您也特別提到其實不管這個"},{"start":5946.34,"end":5957.428,"text":" bicy 叫植物醫師或是叫植物診療師,你們在各地方已經有培訓法人100位是分布在農會跟各地區公所嗎?"},{"start":5957.428,"end":5967.395,"text":"是是這樣嗎?對,還有一部分是我們的試驗單位。一部分是在你們的試驗單位。那所以他們現在在這樣的一個狀態底下,他們的身份其實是不明的,對不對?"},{"start":5968.616,"end":5990.608,"text":"因為我看到在我們美濃農會他們是叫植物醫師在我們的地方農會的這些診療師來做這樣的協助工作是叫植物醫師但是我們的法是叫植物診療師法未來在證明的這個過程裡頭其實我覺得可能你們需要花一點時間去做銜接配合包括你的這些儲備人員"},{"start":5992.329,"end":6007.226,"text":" bicy 未來他是不是都必須要接受國家考試取得證照以後才能正式的執業對,法通過了以後他一段時間他必須做一個轉換他必須針對相關的這個規範去做國家考試那你們有沒有跟考選部這邊做一些"},{"start":6007.807,"end":6025.299,"text":""},{"start":6025.299,"end":6049.104,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6049.364,"end":6074.81,"text":"所以我們預計大概在半年之內看看可不可以三個月到半年之內看看可不可以很完整的一個一個對外的一個公告那接下來然後就可以讓他們來開始報名參加考試同一個時間我們也針對學校的部分因為學校部分有一些相關的科學養成對我們也開始已經在做這樣的一個處理所以一年大概三百位他們有然後分十年大概給到三千位"},{"start":6075.503,"end":6095.247,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":6095.327,"end":6097.569,"text":" bicyclone"},{"start":6110.76,"end":6121.424,"text":"但是未來是不是全部只要遇到田間有這些問題都需要植物診療師來開診斷證明第二個植物診療師開的這個診斷會不會影響到農民未來購買農藥上面比如說農民一定要拿了這個診斷才能去買農藥"},{"start":6133.029,"end":6145.896,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6146.577,"end":6163.556,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提問。我想趁這個機會跟所有的社會大眾,特別是我們的農民說明。我們植物診療師的一個立法通過以後,在農民端他其實是更能夠有效的幫助農民做精準用藥,甚至於可以節省他的用藥的費用。"},{"start":6165.981,"end":6186.031,"text":" bicy 更重要他不會影響他現在購買農藥的任何的模式的改變他並不需要做要取得一些藥單才能夠去買藥所以他不需要取得這個診療師開的藥單才能去買農藥對是不需要的那第二個部分就是有些農藥行賣農藥也擔心說那我們現在販賣農藥未來是不是要有植物診療師的一個證照"},{"start":6192.994,"end":6218.355,"text":"這個也是錯誤的觀念因為我們販賣農藥有根據農藥的販賣的相關的管理辦法去取得它的證照它跟植物診療師的證照是不一樣的換句話說植物診療師他取得證照他不能直接販賣農藥他如果販賣農藥還是要根據農藥管理法裡面的相關的規範才能夠去販賣農藥所以對於這些販賣農藥的業者也完全沒有影響對農民也完全沒有影響"},{"start":6220.697,"end":6244.332,"text":"好,那再請教,那你比如說你們過去有一些林業啦、園藝啦這一些祭師,那他們在這些祭師的工作跟植物診療師的工作上面會不會有衝突?會不會對於我們原來過去的這些林業、農業的園藝祭師造成他們就業上面的影響?這個我想也是這些祭師公會他們很擔心。"},{"start":6245.213,"end":6262.278,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":6262.278,"end":6286.886,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":6287.182,"end":6316.003,"text":"如果是這樣部長我再請教您一個問題我們常常需要比如說農損要去勘栽過去都是你們改良所跟其他的專家學者去勘栽嘛對不對未來這個工作會不會落在植物診療師的身上我想不會因為植物診療因為天災有天災勘栽的一個邏輯但是植物診療師對於相關的萬一有一些保險是針對病床外的保險的部分那植物診療師開的他的植物的"},{"start":6316.323,"end":6341.323,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6341.443,"end":6342.824,"text":" »:委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚ ゚"},{"start":6370.196,"end":6396.254,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":6398.666,"end":6421.201,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答。主席、貴委員、有請部長。好,我們請陳部長。"},{"start":6429.232,"end":6457.129,"text":"委員長部長好今天審查植物診療師法在你們的報告裡面也特別提到今年全球氣候變遷造成植物病蟲害這個改變然後相關的這些防治還有對消費者怎麼樣能夠有安全的一個要求的這個部分所以你們這裡面基本上"},{"start":6458.635,"end":6483.35,"text":"如果從這個你的報告裡面植物診療師指導田間作物栽培及病蟲害整合性的管理這個主要的目的這是其中的部分那這個行政院這個107年審查植物醫師法當初的這個草案的名稱"},{"start":6484.619,"end":6506.76,"text":"然後經過幾次的討論然後這個最近的最近的把名稱還是要改為植物診療師法是這樣嗎是好這個從名稱的改變是其中之一但是你們從這個"},{"start":6509.482,"end":6521.008,"text":"一百零七年到現在這麼多年然後一百一十二年也就是七年十月又重新送行政院"},{"start":6523.792,"end":6549.726,"text":"呃,行政院到底的態度還有考量的是什麼?為什麼一直到現在還沒有完成這個草案,送到立法院?我跟委員說明齁,就是行政院還沒有送到院會齁,那有一部分責任是我想我們農業部該負責的就是沒有更積極的去做一些溝通齁,因為行政院代送的法案是非常多的齁,那我想我們以後會改進。呃,事實上是這樣齁。"},{"start":6553.117,"end":6578.967,"text":"這個政務委員當然政務委員不多但是一個政務委員負責相關的部會如果以農業部這個負責的那個政務委員跟其他的政務委員所以也不會說這個是政務委員來不及沒有時間審要排審很多法案"},{"start":6580.329,"end":6596.798,"text":"因為我們看這個在520之前行政院雖然是看守內閣但是還是通過了不少的法案何況這種"},{"start":6598.575,"end":6624.053,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6624.213,"end":6647.946,"text":"我們是希望說有更好的溝通大家取得共識以後這法案的推動未來會更順暢所以有一部分的原因在之前原因是希望說我們能夠更明確的溝通讓外界都能夠認同這樣的法案對於法案以後的執行會更有效率好就還是要積極的溝通啦好我們看這個今天的草案這個"},{"start":6651.975,"end":6664.602,"text":"最主要是怎麼樣去解決農民的問題啦。農民的問題。對,這是最終的目標。對對,最重要的。所以,像這個"},{"start":6677.79,"end":6695.597,"text":"對,因為診療師能夠判斷什麼時候去用藥是最有效的防治那個時間點非常重要特別是在區域防治的時候更能夠凸顯它的一個效果當然我不知道你們未來的草案如何"},{"start":6697.709,"end":6711.136,"text":"這個你認為這個診療師、植物診療師有沒有需要相關的這些協力或者是說他所念的科系一般很多都是有"},{"start":6713.986,"end":6741.159,"text":"對,我想植物診療師他基本上是針對植物的病蟲害的一個專業的知識但是針對病害有一部分可能是生理病害所以他對於整個的土壤跟整個的栽培還有相關的這些基本的農業的背景他是需要有這樣的背景才能去做這樣的考試好,所以這個部分是一個考量了是那就好,我們就以這個"},{"start":6743.072,"end":6771.778,"text":"adequure我國外銷至大陸的大宗農產品有文旦、鳳梨釋迦、柑橘類等等。像這樣的一個因為這幾年被禁止銷往大陸然後相關的因素我們就以實際他們所報導出來的因素來說有了這個植物診療師"},{"start":6773.609,"end":6796.254,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":6796.254,"end":6818.302,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":6818.302,"end":6842.125,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":6842.927,"end":6869.531,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":6870.384,"end":6891.852,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":6893.183,"end":6912.073,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":6912.073,"end":6912.873,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答。"},{"start":6953.648,"end":6966.813,"text":"國會改革方案後,很多立委跟民眾最想成立的第一個調查委員會要查什麼案?"},{"start":6978.422,"end":6978.682,"text":"我先把..."},{"start":6993.749,"end":7011.252,"text":"大家講一下,這幾天啊,包括國參委員跟我,你知道現在看起來不是只有古泥、超市雞蛋的這個問題。看起來前年還有些問題,今天我們要好好來討論。現在民眾為什麼對超市那麼有興趣,最主要還有三個問題。第一個,去年花了10億嘛,對不對?"},{"start":7012.193,"end":7012.293,"text":"愚蠢蠢"},{"start":7032.312,"end":7039.579,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等17人擬具:「植物診療師法草案：立法院第11屆第16次全體委員會：立法院等17人擬具:「植物診療師法草案：立法院等17人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚ ゚"},{"start":7058.271,"end":7073.778,"text":"== 2022年民國181年勝立九月成立十月份的心日本蛋就進來了大家以前耳熟能詳都在說古年巴西蛋一百其實青年啊"},{"start":7075.162,"end":7100.094,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":7100.776,"end":7120.708,"text":""},{"start":7121.216,"end":7134.691,"text":"一頁兩千八百萬頁這覺得合理?一個是資本額這麼小做這麼大生意這是一個這一般的公司不可能這樣做嘛第二個為什麼馬上開張為什麼農業部跟中央市長會就給他這筆生意我想跟委員說明齁就是"},{"start":7135.734,"end":7153.082,"text":"委員一直針對超吃的部分那我之前也先講過了那這些資訊其實一直影射的就是說我們農業部有一些涉及相關的不法那我在這邊也非常正式的跟委員報告其實在112年112年專案的一個雞蛋的一個調度112年是例行的產業要調節我們農委會是補助他例行調節但是因為委員的一些所知"},{"start":7163.527,"end":7184.403,"text":"我們也正式的進行了兩次的一個行政調查。那相關的行政調查裡面有一些疑慮的,我們甚至於請所謂的我們的政風去做瞭解。然後甚至於我們把相關的資料移情...部長,部長,部長,你NCB對合...部長,我先講一下事情,因為你剛剛用了一個很嚴重的字眼。這個不是什麼影射喔。"},{"start":7185.163,"end":7198.948,"text":"這是一個客觀的事實,我們來看這是不是一個客觀的事實?不是我想,因為同樣的數據可能你們本身在解讀方面,所以我說因為我不希望我們同仁,我的立場是如果同仁犯法我絕對不寬容。"},{"start":7200.228,"end":7224.482,"text":"但是同仁如果清白的我希望盡快的還給他清白因為我們的蓄穆斯的同仁現在已經非常辛苦了他們要處理非常多的問題所以我也主動的移情檢調單位能夠去釐清因為我有檢調釐清才能夠迅速的還給我們同仁的一個清白景赫這是一個客觀的事實啦都不是用嘴巴啦到底有沒有不法都不是重點就是一方面檢調查等一下我們要講"},{"start":7226.283,"end":7248.684,"text":"要不要立法院成立調查委員或小組來查這是一個那事實上之前檢調也有在查嘛現在都沒寫或沒寫起啦我們會繼續追我們用客觀的事實來討論這個事情好不好來再看看咧我問你一下你不要回文給我中央細產會回文給本席一共啊前年這個是超不可思議的事情有兩家公司"},{"start":7249.867,"end":7251.908,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。"},{"start":7273.78,"end":7279.024,"text":"二、本院委員楊瓊瓔等2540人擬具、「植物診療師法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":7289.003,"end":7314.242,"text":"我想我們的續產會本身在處理這個雞蛋調度的時候有他們的一個的一個做法因為當初在需要蛋的時候他們也問過了你用你的不要用膝蓋部長用腦袋不要用膝蓋用腦袋想一下會不會太不可思議我覺得裡面我們同仁有一些解釋我們行政調查我們覺得有一些解釋所以我才會說我最後我們希望說讓我們的不是"},{"start":7316.704,"end":7341.829,"text":"我們已經主動的依請檢調去了解有依請所以我才會說為什麼不合理我告訴你看來因為合不合理我想可能要真正的調查以後才了解因為調查你調查完以後你已經送到檢調了嗎沒有對啊所以同仁的解釋他是一個解釋那我認同同仁的解釋但是我不是法律專家我沒有辦法判斷後面的所以我相信我也期待委員能夠我們檢調已經在調查了"},{"start":7344.429,"end":7349.172,"text":"adequ to the final simple survey result, if there is really a violation, I will not tolerate it."},{"start":7349.172,"end":7359.239,"text":"那如果說我們同仁是屬於行政瑕疵,我們會行政瑕疵處理。那沒有其他的貪圖的案件,我也希望還給我們同仁一個清白。這是我的立場。這是我的立場。"},{"start":7374.769,"end":7400.601,"text":"這家有合約的釀材釀材生物科技他資本額一百啊釀材勝出對不對成立時間釀材民國九十七年啊他也勝出啊只有在進口數量的方面為什麼超市多了那麼多釀材明明資本額成立時間而且他有合約是怎麼超市買了那麼多沒有合約這民眾會怎麼去想這個事情"},{"start":7403.345,"end":7429.44,"text":"所以你說要移送檢調嘛。好,我們就看這個結果怎麼樣。來,我們再看下一張。而且啊,裡面還有一個很不可思議的。操司不只是10年不開張,開張是10年喔。你看,他在前年一成立,馬上就日本彈進來,他就做完生意了。後來馬上就停下來了。欸,他還停業,暫停營業。暫停營業沒有多久,他開始復業,復業馬上巴西彈就進來了。這就是一般人講的嘛。是不是?"},{"start":7431.158,"end":7451.227,"text":"十年不開張,開張四十年,而且專門做的就是農業部中央系長會的這個生意,這是一個點。第二個裡面你剛剛講到底有沒有關山勾結,好,我們就進一步去查。我再問一個很疑問點的。當初農業部叫中央系長會出來對超市公會,他說什麼?為什麼他去年可以進那麼多的巴西蛋?結果現在發現了,因為前年有日本這一筆。"},{"start":7452.267,"end":7462.996,"text":" 我就問阿你說因為他有做過這個日本的生意所以他從巴西進來問題是兩年前你根本都沒有經驗阿為什麼給他一個一億多的生意這是另外一個點來我們看下一張"},{"start":7464.833,"end":7490.608,"text":"現在有人在問啦,他說中央市場會這麼大的金額到底要不要經過採購?我特別去查了預算書,保證,中央市場會台北的錢,它成立的時候就是用農業部的錢。農業部的錢是什麼人的?人民的錢嘛,對不對?用人民的錢,民主民高設立的,所以用任何一分錢,一分錢裡面至少有很多是政府的錢,對不對?你看每一年度,來來,保證你看每一年度,109政府補助的錢超過"},{"start":7492.37,"end":7494.573,"text":"我跟委員說明喔續產會本身是財產法人"},{"start":7510.791,"end":7510.891,"text":"議員您說50億?有請問50億嗎?"},{"start":7525.728,"end":7531.151,"text":"我跳回上一張給你看一下,有什麼問題嗎?我跟委員說明齁,他本身負責國內的續產部分的包括所有的屠宰場的獸醫師的一個屠宰的檢查都是續產費所以相對的續產費其實這些政府補助的費用其實他有他背後的需要去協助產業"},{"start":7550.299,"end":7552.601,"text":" bicy 升級了一個非常重要的經費的支持。"},{"start":7574.244,"end":7584.441,"text":"你接受媒體專訪以前一共啊你說以後不會再用這種專案進口的這個方式不過我必須提醒你這是人質真正要解決問題是什麼所以我剛剛講的解答人民剛的疑問"},{"start":7586.005,"end":7604.11,"text":"為什麼要花10億?第二個為什麼銷毀那麼多?第三個超市為什麼這麼神通廣大?這三個點你解釋不清楚人民就一直挖問號了那當然答案會是你剛剛講的要嘛就國會調查要嘛檢調你已經移送了那問一下最後的我期待你做一件事情"},{"start":7604.89,"end":7606.812,"text":"對,我們已經在做專案的一個檢討。針對市長會過去的行政疏失,我們在做專案的檢討。"},{"start":7631.334,"end":7647.229,"text":"好,保定,我知道你很盡心盡力在做。啊,說實在的,不管是去年的事情、前年的事情,這都是定一定保定的事情。也是上一任中央市長會的事情。我是肯定你願意去面對。老實說,你也是老實人。可是我要提醒你,人民為什麼到現在為止最想知道的"},{"start":7648.803,"end":7669.736,"text":"會是進口彈這個問題為什麼期待立法院的調查委員會或者是我們經濟委員會成立的調查小組要先查清楚這個案子因為剛講那個疑問點還很多我們要一起加油好不好一定要解決問題一定要解決問題人民才會同意說這個問題是要通過的到目前為止人民也有太多疑問好不好我們共同努力好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":7684.332,"end":7692.402,"text":"好接下來我們請耐瑞文委員請做詢談謝謝好謝謝召委請陳部長我們請陳部長"},{"start":7699.158,"end":7717.972,"text":"市長好,今天我們處理這個植物診療師法,其實這個從上一屆到現在大家一直在努力,那上一屆其實差一點點,最後的階段。市長好,今天我們處理這個植物診療師法,其實這個從上一屆到現在大家一直在努力,那上一屆其實差一點點,最後的階段。市長好,今天我們處理這個植物診療師法,其實這個從上一屆到現在大家一直在努力,那上一屆其實差一點點,最後的階段。市長好,今天我們處理這個植物診療師法,其實這個從上一屆到現在大家一直在努力,那上一屆其實差一點點,最後的階段。市長好,今天我們處理這個植物診療師法,其實"},{"start":7729.201,"end":7744.438,"text":" 那我問一下,院版的部分下禮拜會進來嗎?剛剛聽到...我們期待就是下禮拜能夠出院會。那如果這些能夠順利的在這一屆來通過的話,部長,這個會產生什麼樣的效益?"},{"start":7744.938,"end":7766.312,"text":"我想一個非常重要的就是現在因為全球暖化氣候變遷的關係那個病床害的不確定性越來越高那農民用過往的經驗其實在防治上面越來越困擾有植物診療師他最大的好處就是能夠用他的專業去協助農民精準的用藥那也因為精準的用藥可以減少農藥的使用"},{"start":7766.8,"end":7784.087,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":7784.087,"end":7802.756,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":7802.896,"end":7826.993,"text":"如果這個法過了部長未來大概會招募到多少的預計要多少的植物診療師我看有很多的人已經慢慢在離開這個行業了因為一直等不到這個法的通過我想也謝謝委員關心我們目前是用儲備的方式有100位那因為法一直沒有通過他們的不確定性非常高所以我們以農業部的立場我們也希望法表現在剩100位對我們大概100位現在大概80幾位還要再徵聘"},{"start":7829.235,"end":7857.085,"text":"有些流失掉了有些流失所以我們希望法能夠過那未來我們TOTAL預估大概是3000位那3000位他未來的職場可能是在農會可能是在縣市政府可能是在試驗單位3000位是多久的時間要去把這樣的10年的部分一年大概300位的一個比例用10年的方式達到10年的時間拔到3000位一年增加300位學校端的這些職能的養成"},{"start":7858.208,"end":7877.151,"text":"那現在他們這些未來他們的收入的部分呢?我想收入我們曾經有問過那個用問卷的方式去看那些現在有在聘的農會的部分齁他們現在目前大概期待的價格有沒有大概37000到38000左右大概是這個價嘛"},{"start":7877.892,"end":7897.534,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":7897.754,"end":7919.586,"text":"如果這是一個重要的行業,也重要的話,我們希望這一塊要有效力的輔導,讓他們價值能夠呈現。那價值呈現的時候,他們才能夠也吸引到更多,而不是只靠興趣,而是他確實能夠在於他整個謀生能力或他的經濟上面能夠給予他一定的支撐。那這樣才能讓更多優秀而有興趣、有專業的人才能夠進到這個領域來。"},{"start":7920.486,"end":7938.302,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":7938.522,"end":7966.259,"text":"我問一下,其實原來遇到了一些阻力的部分,有些反對的意見,現在不管是從農民、農藥業者或者是林業員役或者是農役技師甚至於醫師的團體應該都獲得了支持了嗎?是,我這邊還是再次強調,就是過去很多販賣農藥業者會擔心說植物診療師過了以後他就不能自己賣農藥,要去考試。這是錯誤的。我們現在植物診療師就算你拿到了證照也不能販賣農藥。"},{"start":7967.74,"end":7991.281,"text":" bicy 因為販賣農藥有另外的販賣農藥的管理的一個徵兆要去處理。他一樣是分開來的。是分開來的,所以不會有影響。那對於現在有的這些園藝院或者是林業的技師,他所從事的工作前也不會被剝奪,也不會說還要再去搞一個事。反而是植物診療可以跟他做一個互補跟加成的作用,讓相關的技師的服務能夠更到位、更專業。"},{"start":7992.932,"end":8016.411,"text":"我們期待這個將來進來之後,這個植物診療師進來之後讓更多大家是多贏的一個局面,創造出更大的一個空間出來,然後他們所擔憂的問題其實不會發生,我認為這應該也是立法上的一個目的。對,我們會繼續持續的去讓他們這些利害關係的人去做更深入的了解。那如果這樣看來的話,以這樣看來這個會期有機會來完成三讀的程序嗎?"},{"start":8017.311,"end":8042.856,"text":"我們是朝這個目標來努力。因為看來這個法也是農業部長期來推動的一個法,那也花了非常多時間來整合。那進來的我也期待,儘快進來之後我們在這會期有機會朝野大家一起努力來完成三讀。對,我們一起努力。接下來我請教一下,其實公糧的一個收購的部分最近大家也很關心,因為我看到院會裡面已經把"},{"start":8043.476,"end":8067.841,"text":"adequ 26塊升到36塊的部分直接進付二讀了。部長你的看法呢?我想委員所提的版本他背後的目的就是希望提高農民的所得嘛那其實提高農民所得有非常多的一個方法跟策略提高公糧是一個方法之一但是我們的評估他在短期間可能"},{"start":8068.541,"end":8097.329,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8097.409,"end":8124.087,"text":" bicy 因為現在棄作物的價格都比公糧的價格還高。那我們也透過這樣的一個相關的特定地區去轉焊作。我們希望透過其他的種種配套作為去支撐整個糧價。我覺得整體上應該是怎麼去提升我們稻米的整體的一些價值的部分。那公糧的收購其實變成當然現實上面它有一些農民上的壓力必須要處理。但是如果我們投入了這麼多的資源在這件事情上面的時候。"},{"start":8124.867,"end":8148.887,"text":"但是法沒有去處理到更根本的問題就是對於整個稻米或者是這個糧食的這些的品質的部分我也擔心反倒會有一些惡性的循環的一個狀況包括我看美濃農會也擔心就是現在因為它是用量去計價的那如果這樣的話大家不斷地搶那個量的話那反倒有可能是讓整個我們的產業的部分落入到了一個惡性的循環"},{"start":8149.868,"end":8172.065,"text":"對,部長同意這樣的看法嗎?我非常同意,就是說因為公糧是以量為計量的標準,它不管它的品質。那像現在很多下雨因為倒伏嘛,其實它就是為了追求高產,撕太多的蛋肥,所以很容易倒伏。它面對氣候變遷的風險更大,所以我們希望引導它用一個優質優良的品種。"},{"start":8173.046,"end":8201.169,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8201.169,"end":8222.312,"text":"議員長"},{"start":8222.312,"end":8243.166,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8243.166,"end":8268.166,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8269.166,"end":8286.732,"text":"議長,這樣的三個方向是什麼時候可以提出來?我想我們因為很多相關的細節還在做精算。這個精算完了以後我們會抱怨。大概要多久?一個月?我希望能夠越快越好。因為這個研議的部分還要經過院裡面的預算。包括預算的部分。這個我們現在正在做精算。我們期待用這樣比較積極的政策的方向去"},{"start":8297.555,"end":8299.416,"text":"接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員。鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員。我們再請謝一芬委員請做懸檔。"},{"start":8329.82,"end":8331.863,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請我們陳部長。我們再請陳部長。"},{"start":8339.909,"end":8342.91,"text":"農民及農藥業者產生不當聯想。農民及農藥業者產生不當聯想。農民及農藥業者產生不當聯想。"},{"start":8359.616,"end":8374.258,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8376.17,"end":8391.088,"text":" 我想謝謝委員的支持因為整個的一個跟利害關係的人包括農民、農藥業者還有一些其他技師工會甚至於醫師工會我們也做了非常多的溝通因為這個版本從106年就開始推了那現在的溝通我想大家都"},{"start":8391.749,"end":8391.889,"text":"來,我們請衛福部"},{"start":8423.137,"end":8427.833,"text":"周季正嗎?一起,一起,我們一起好不好?"},{"start":8429.671,"end":8452.523,"text":"部長,當初你們有送我們的那個進口乳品那你們要求食藥署要用長效乳的方式這也是一般我們台灣糯農為了希望區別我們自己的鮮乳跟紐西蘭進口鮮乳的差別"},{"start":8453.183,"end":8472.841,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":8472.841,"end":8497.841,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":8502.184,"end":8521.511,"text":"為什麼食藥署還是不同意?我跟委員說明,我想我們跟衛生部有一個很好的溝通管道。當初我們也的確建議了,因為我們沒辦法用要求,我們用建議的方式請衛生部考慮用我們的方案二,就是長效乳。"},{"start":8522.125,"end":8543.695,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8543.695,"end":8573.524,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8573.524,"end":8599.531,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8599.531,"end":8605.617,"text":" proporto la ley de la ley de la ley de la ley de la ley de"},{"start":8619.366,"end":8624.789,"text":" »: 部長說跟你們邱部長有溝通。你們食藥署內部勒?有沒有討論?"},{"start":8624.789,"end":8633.935,"text":"»: 有。這個因為我們預告期間其實進來的意見很多。那所以也包括這個... »: 那你們部裡面討論的意見如何?"},{"start":8633.935,"end":8647.404,"text":"»: 我們就是會再把所有的意見都收集起來一併做討論。 »: 我是說你們署裡面勒?你們會不會按照邱部長?部長說跟你們邱部長溝通得很好啊。可是你們食藥署勒?"},{"start":8648.991,"end":8659.277,"text":"我們食藥署其實是部裡的一個單位啦,所以我們是同一個機關。對,這樣最後都會一起共同討論。好,所以你們會按照部長的意見嗎?"},{"start":8661.287,"end":8679.767,"text":"我替食藥組回答一下因為相關的食藥組的法規是預告60天嘛那60天完了以後我相信會用更專業的角度然後依據我們外界的聲音去做一個判斷那我剛才說的我跟衛福部長溝通其實我們是朝共同的同樣的目標去努力"},{"start":8681.227,"end":8708.068,"text":" bicy 因為部長剛來啊。說不定食藥署不想要聽部長的啊。是不是?對不對?也不一定會溝通。你還是要保障我們本土落農的一個啊。所以我的立場非常明確喔。那我會用最大的盡力去跟衛福部去溝通。所以你那個部長溝通了,我覺得你署裡面也是要去協調一下。不然到時候意見不一致了欸。對不對?是不是?部長?陳部長?"},{"start":8710.458,"end":8710.619,"text":"我想"},{"start":8711.817,"end":8741.817,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8742.217,"end":8765.237,"text":" »: 行政院合可的經費是18.6億嘛。那其中補助產業淘汰低產乳牛每頭2萬。那這個部分有落農去年其實已經陸陸續續淘汰,你知道嗎?就是乳品市場的問題嘛。所以他們已經陸陸續續配合政策都已經淘汰這些乳牛了。"},{"start":8765.998,"end":8785.896,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8786.493,"end":8815.043,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8815.299,"end":8838.609,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":8838.749,"end":8860.007,"text":" »: 引用國產的鮮乳是一個愛護我們臺灣的生態,因為它是一個低碳的產品,對於我們整個地球的環境是更有幫助的。 »: 好,還有一點,不好意思主席再借一點時間喔。還有就是喔,其實現在已經有進口的這個長效的"},{"start":8860.964,"end":8878.217,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8878.217,"end":8907.654,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":8909.706,"end":8929.975,"text":"議長,你剛剛還搶先要幫食藥署講話,他給你的預告就已經預告那個鮮乳,他已經對不起你了,你還替他講話。今天我建議你喔,每一個委員都關心這國人的安全,把我們今天國會頻道所有委員的發言全部給食藥署聽。"},{"start":8932.317,"end":8958.774,"text":"因為你七到十度明明有危險嘛明明有高風險嘛對不對他的安全性嘛所以我們支持你一定要堅持不可以什麼長效鮮乳讓民眾混淆視聽嘛對不對你要堅持我們國內的14天就是鮮乳進口的30天以上的就是長效乳這很清楚的好不好明確啦還要替什麼十二組講什麼話"},{"start":8961.175,"end":8978.483,"text":"對,這樣就對了。好,謝謝。來,我們接下來請羅廷偉委員。對不起喔,因為我在台上聽每一位委員,你這麼老實這麼客氣,難怪被欺負啊。來,請發言。好,謝謝趙偉,有請部長。我們再請陳部長。對不起,我們這個,呃,羅廷偉委員,呃,詢答結束,休息三分鐘喔,因為已經11點,謝謝。"},{"start":8994.111,"end":9011.056,"text":"植物診療師法草案,之前叫做醫師,有名稱上的爭議。110年的10月20日曾經一度排審,11月24日續審,當初初審通過確定採用植物醫師為法案的名稱,經考試取得植物醫師的證照。"},{"start":9012.856,"end":9039.252,"text":" bicy 再向地方主管申請職業登記結果當時的問題就在植物醫生的名字搞不定今天謝謝楊瓊瓔願意排案我們就我所知坊間已經有連鎖農藥店打著植物醫院的名號未來有些地方會進駐所謂的植物診療師本席認為相關的立法不能夠再延宕法醫一旦通過很多東西都能夠整合農民種植可以說是"},{"start":9039.872,"end":9063.848,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9063.968,"end":9065.609,"text":" »:委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚゚"},{"start":9094.298,"end":9116.167,"text":"​​2017年前農委會決議啊在2027年國內化學的農藥有效成分呢用量要從9139公噸降為4570公噸可是農藥一直到去年2022年啊5年過去的都沒有明顯的下降喔估計達到10年減半的目標是不可能你覺得有可能嗎?"},{"start":9117.087,"end":9132.716,"text":" 我跟委員說明當初在訂農藥十年減半的時候的確一開始他們是用量的概念去處理量的減半可是在當年的時候開始去討論其實我們農藥十年減半的背後的目的是希望讓它的風險"},{"start":9133.757,"end":9154.233,"text":"就是農藥對於人類人的風險能夠降低所以我們開始把農藥做四種分類那農藥劇毒農藥是因為農藥劇毒他只要量很少可是他毒性非常強那這個部分劇毒農藥已經退場的大概已經比我們的機器人已經降了73%那這個部分超過了一半以上"},{"start":9156.715,"end":9180.503,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9180.503,"end":9201.715,"text":"゚∀゚。゚∀゚。"},{"start":9201.715,"end":9216.732,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":9217.049,"end":9234.866,"text":"我講我們鼓勵針對我們的環境永續的有機有善的這個工作當然當然那相對的我們針對這種有機的資材我們農業部也提供了相關的一個補助但是現在我們看到嘛比傳統農藥所花費的費用要多然後又不知道有沒有效我們傳統農藥應該沒有補助"},{"start":9237.705,"end":9262.278,"text":"對。對。對。"},{"start":9262.278,"end":9279.77,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9280.03,"end":9298.405,"text":" 我想非常了解吼,那也非常謝謝委員的關心吼,特別是劇毒農藥,我們退場,那劇毒農藥它的量非常少,但是它很毒。所以我們一旦退場了以後,我們用低風險的去取代,那低風險的它的量會比原來的劇毒農藥多一點,所以你看到總量的部分是降不下來的。"},{"start":9299.105,"end":9319.31,"text":" »: 但是從人對人的風險的角度來講他是下降的所以我們針對生物農藥這個部分我們會有明確的數據然後也提供政策的誘因去補助能夠鼓勵我們的農民用這樣的一個藥最後我想講生物農藥這部分我們還是希望他能夠在廣為的推廣並且是有效的推廣"},{"start":9319.77,"end":9333.223,"text":"adequ能夠增加誘因讓他們來使用我還是要回歸到剛剛說的使用這個雖然你有補助但對他們來說成本較高第二個不知道有沒有效所以在這個部分能不能多加溝通讓他們能夠趕緊轉型"},{"start":9335.145,"end":9360.282,"text":" bicy 讓我們能夠趕緊知道低風險或者生物農藥正在逐漸的來取代傳統農藥讓國人能夠更加安心而不是看到這些數據我們更加的擔憂我們的農藥量沒有下降的話國人當然就會擔心我們現在的食品衛生會不會有問題這部分請你加油會後是不是能夠提供更有效推廣以及更具競爭的誘因的相關補貼方案給我們"},{"start":9361.383,"end":9387.897,"text":"好,我想會請我們同仁研議以後再提供給我們的...一個月?兩個月?我想一個月,一個月之內,我們把初步的規劃先給委員做參考,然後再討論後面的細節。我想這個拜託你,因為我想包括楊瓊瓔委員齁,我們都有一些農民的選民,我們都有一些食用這些植物或者是蔬果相關的一些選民都很擔憂,所以我們希望這部分能夠加緊腳步好不好?"},{"start":9387.897,"end":9387.937,"text":"好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":9395.92,"end":9396.751,"text":"我們現在休息三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":9681.769,"end":9683.611,"text":"好 謝謝請回座我們繼續開會接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做詢問我們再請陳部長"},{"start":9710.761,"end":9738.724,"text":"議員好。部長,也許上一次質詢的主題也就是在2022年我們從日本進口寄到。上一次詢答的時候,其實你也答應要提供很多資料。到目前為止,資料都還沒有完全的到。所以我想說利用今天質詢的時間,我們進一步的來請教。因為這整件事情之所以會引發大家這麼大的關注,"},{"start":9739.625,"end":9760.002,"text":"是大家發現說2023年超思這家公司出現了那一口氣承接了7億的單子從巴西進口雞蛋大家開始在追蹤說那這家公司到底是什麼時候開始在做這樣子的生意那農業部強調他不是為了要專案進口才成立"},{"start":9760.703,"end":9780.788,"text":"但我們後來發現他在2022年的時候11月就曾經從日本進口雞蛋到台灣而且他在2022年11月從日本進口雞蛋到台灣的時候接的是我們中央續產會的大單他在2022年9月的時候才成立的"},{"start":9781.508,"end":9807.521,"text":"那因此我們進一步追下去發現說原來我們在2022年從日本進口雞蛋那3000萬顆裡面有2500萬顆是由超私所進口進來的所以我那個時候才會跟部長說那這個契約是不是可以提供那到目前為止我所收到的訊息是我們跟超私請超私啦中央區長會請超私進口2500萬顆雞蛋"},{"start":9811.367,"end":9811.613,"text":"沒有契約。"},{"start":9814.053,"end":9844.053,"text":"゚∀゚。"},{"start":9844.393,"end":9860.116,"text":"但你從日本進口2500萬顆雞蛋包括數量包括價格包括交貨的條件包括中間可能要負擔的各式各樣的費用完全沒有合約部長你相信嗎?"},{"start":9860.877,"end":9889.362,"text":"我跟委員說明一下就是從二、三月份委員在關心111年的這個相關的資料以後其實我們內部我從內部就啟動了相關的行政調查那行政調查裡面我們也的確看到了有一些現況是好像有一點點的疑問我們對我們來講是一個疑問所以我們請了行政調查了以後那我也請政風去做更深入的了解那我的態度是"},{"start":9890.612,"end":9891.953,"text":"我只希望把事情還原。"},{"start":9911.731,"end":9938.769,"text":"因為我第一步的事情是,兩千五百萬顆雞蛋竟然沒有合約這一件事情。部長你們行政調查的結果是不是確實是這個樣子?我想我們看到的這些資料,我所了解的是,它其中兩千五百四十萬裡面其中有一部分是跟量財之間的關係。量財之間的關係。最後的確是超市去進口,但是它是跟量財之間的關係啦。"},{"start":9940.77,"end":9964.614,"text":"並不是直接是用超私的名譽去買斷。欸那這樣子跟你們剛剛跟我們講的你們提供給我的書面資料就不符合啊?提供的書面資料是他的確是超私進口的這個買斷的就是我們的付款。我們先把事情講清楚啦那個契約關係到底存在在誰跟誰之間?中央續產會是跟超私買還是中央續產會跟量財買?"},{"start":9970.676,"end":9989.891,"text":"中央區長會跟量產有合約關係跟超市沒有合約關係所以實際上面的狀況是什麼實際上面的狀況是3000萬顆全部都是量產是嗎不是有一部分是超市所謂有一部分是有多大部分我如果沒有記錯的話應該是600多萬顆啦不曉得我老實跟你講啦這幾個月下來你們給資訊"},{"start":9997.95,"end":10026.713,"text":"不是隱匿就是片段前後不一致到今天才講原來有一部分是跟亮采進來的那跟亮采進來的到底數量是多少今天你說得清楚嗎?我想非常詳細的數字我沒有辦法記得那麼清楚好!你們行政調查做完了沒有?我們行政調查做完了做完了行政調查報告可以提供給各位委員嗎?如果相關的規定是可以我一定會提供"},{"start":10027.677,"end":10050.079,"text":"有什麼不可以的理由嗎?你們進行的行政調查社會大眾對這件事情有非常多的疑慮跟質問我們在經濟委員會質詢了這麼久結果你們一開始隱匿不肯給到後來提供的資訊錯誤擺出到今天才承認說原來有一部分的蛋"},{"start":10051.613,"end":10081.613,"text":""},{"start":10082.033,"end":10104.28,"text":"可以把行政調查報告交出來嗎?我還是一句話喔以我的立場齁我可以交的我一定會交我絕對不會隱密齁那相對的就是說我可能必須問我們的法務法治處這邊齁如果可以的話可不可以?原則上來講如果沒有造成我們的困難跟妨礙就OK好如果如果照我們法治講的可以的話我一定會提供好"},{"start":10105.08,"end":10113.944,"text":"所以,多久行政調查報告要交出來?這個禮拜之前可不可以?什麼時候可以交出來?這個禮拜可以嗎?等一下,這個禮拜可以交出來嗎?你們不是已經完成了嗎?"},{"start":10123.271,"end":10142.738,"text":"啊你只要把檔案打開案列印完了以後送到經濟委員會來給所有經濟委員會的委員跟關心的委員嗎?不是,我跟委員說明齁,就是我們對外提供資料的時候相關的這些程序我們必須要完備。什麼樣的程序要報到院長那邊去是不是?要請示院長可不可以提供是不是?"},{"start":10143.738,"end":10147.94,"text":"議長,你告訴委員什麼時間點。好不好?細節你不用在這邊說好不好?好!最慢下禮拜二我一定提供。"},{"start":10171.011,"end":10198.929,"text":"閱完下禮拜二提供那我希望我去函詢問的資料包括了包括了說續產會跟超私往來的記錄續產會跟超私付款的明細續產會跟超私如果沒有一個書面的合約的話針對所有的交易條件到底是怎麼談成的因為整件事情對我來講我必須要說匪夷所思啊匪夷所思這麼大的數量"},{"start":10200.35,"end":10226.733,"text":"沒有合約那所有的交易條件到底是如何達成合意的分兩個部分第一個就行政調查報告的部分部長剛剛已經承諾最晚下個禮拜二提供這個我同意第二個就我去函詢問的問題請部長一併一併能夠可以回覆這樣可以嗎從這個簡報上面看到的我覺得應該可以提供好謝謝"},{"start":10232.429,"end":10232.829,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":10266.82,"end":10267.741,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":10277.155,"end":10290.448,"text":"市長,我今天這個幾分鐘的時間我想請教就是我彰化是這個產蛋可能全台灣兩顆蛋一個就是來自彰化那我想請教就是說在最近這幾週裡面連續蛋價是一直在降"},{"start":10295.213,"end":10318.029,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":10318.029,"end":10341.8,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":10343.08,"end":10357.21,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":10357.534,"end":10383.677,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":10383.677,"end":10405.162,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":10405.162,"end":10424.377,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":10424.377,"end":10444.309,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":10444.669,"end":10461.396,"text":" bicy 如果老母雞太慢的話我們每一隻會補助一定的金額用這樣的方式但是會跟我們的整個氮基產業能夠有一個共同的共識那這個方案我想我們盡快就會啟動那另外一個方案就是"},{"start":10462.056,"end":10477.773,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":10477.773,"end":10501.971,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":10501.971,"end":10526.032,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":10526.032,"end":10540.435,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":10540.97,"end":10556.265,"text":" tatto 9月齁所以我們希望說這一波的那個營業稅降低的時候我希望飼料廠也能夠反映到這些營業稅降低所得到的一些一些價差齁能夠做一點回饋這個我想我們在可是我覺得你們這個應該要確實啊"},{"start":10558.267,"end":10567.094,"text":"對,就是那個飼料的價格不能讓他就維持。如果你既然有幫他有優惠的話,那你應該反映在這個基農要買這個飼料的這個價格應該要有所調整。對,所以我們也積極跟這些飼料廠、飼料工會在做一個協商。是是,好。"},{"start":10583.507,"end":10605.758,"text":" 那個部長我想請教齁,剛剛有特別提到就是說這個暑假,學校放暑假嘛,那原本也許這個團散,團散它原本就有這個可能一天或者是,我看到這個平均齁,學校的這個平均團散一個月喔,一個月才用2.15粒,這個2.15顆蛋或者是有的不到兩顆齁。"},{"start":10607.079,"end":10622.318,"text":" 那其實我覺得這個蛋其實是非常重要蛋白質的一個來源其實我覺得說應該也要去鼓勵這個學校團善應該這個蛋的部分應該也要這個其實這個是很重要的一個蛋白質的來源"},{"start":10622.739,"end":10637.79,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":10637.79,"end":10664.189,"text":""},{"start":10664.349,"end":10665.13,"text":"接下來我們請陳昌明委員請做詢談。謝謝。"},{"start":10697.478,"end":10701.663,"text":"謝謝主席,現在有請我們農業部陳部長。我們再請陳部長。委員好,部長好。"},{"start":10711.983,"end":10733.857,"text":"首先我特別感謝農業部我們前任的陳部長陳志偉及現任的陳部長對於苗栗縣農業建設的一個支持但是還有幾個重點還沒有完成我一而再再而三的拜託你們前時大概所有農業裡都有冷鏈物流"},{"start":10734.858,"end":10759.58,"text":"那下一次我們要爭取到現在我們發掘現正發掘的能鏈物流很重要正在跟國產市在存貨一個塊土地要來尊重這個能鏈物流的中心我希望你要把錢留著啊那最後一端你也答應我這個能鏈繼續存在嘛"},{"start":10760.492,"end":10778.858,"text":" 我跟委員說明齁,第一期的冷鏈計畫在今年度結束。那我們正在積極地爭取第二期的冷鏈計畫。這第一個跟委員說明的。第二個部分,在我的構想跟我們部裡面的規劃裡面,冷鏈物流我們會在台灣變成一個冷鏈物流網絡。它不是單點的。"},{"start":10779.718,"end":10803.097,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":10803.097,"end":10804.639,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚ ゚"},{"start":10824.9,"end":10850.152,"text":"我沒有看到計劃,計劃跟經費我想我們會請我們的同仁去協調啦,就是在一個適當的方式。你不要講這樣,我計劃雙上市,每一個縣市都有苗栗縣不能缺席,你給我答應一句話就好了。我剛才已經說了齁,在整個網絡裡面,物流網絡裡面苗栗縣絕對不會缺席,不會缺掉這個網絡。"},{"start":10852.373,"end":10869.973,"text":"還有你也一直曉得我一直在關於龍鳳漁港那個直銷中心的一個改建。那直銷中心的改建目前也進入到一個關鍵的工程設計建造及興建的階段。"},{"start":10870.934,"end":10892.647,"text":"那在今年的3月,我也邀請我們的一夜市長張市長,他也答應我設計經費970萬。啊到現在,紫雲樓梯上沒有看到那970萬,你這樣去跟我答應,跟台客跟我答應下來,我都下不了台啊,到現在都沒有下來。"},{"start":10893.952,"end":10917.519,"text":" 我跟委員說明齁,就是在整個龍鳳漁港本身的一個整理規劃,我們曾經投入了大概673萬嘛,去做一個規劃。那現在規劃期末報告出來了。那基本上我們會去支持,但是不是沒有條件的支持,我們會看它的規劃的規模啦。因為有時候齁,我們怕齁,每個地方政府會相關的,它的規模太大,結果"},{"start":10918.319,"end":10935.367,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":10935.507,"end":10962.588,"text":"但是,我現在要跟你講,跟部長報告一下,你那幾人的碧莎漁港、桃園的永安漁港、新池的南寮漁港、台中的吳崎漁港都創造了很多人,變成一個觀光休閒漁港。我在廟裡都沒有,看起來你很照顧,其實很忽視苗栗。所以這個隆鳳漁港,現在要送進來了。"},{"start":10963.973,"end":10983.417,"text":"啊你說派太膨脹、太小。我要求的不多。你幫我建設好就好。我現在再跟你講一個問題。你高雄全鎮漁港改建的經費86億。81億多。沒有啊。86億我的意思。81億多。好了好了。86、81反正超過幾十億嘛。你是中央以專案來前額負擔。"},{"start":10991.019,"end":11002.352,"text":"高雄市政府一家間就變成,我都問議長現在把你踢出來多少年了,零頭都不夠,我只有3億而已。啊你看要幫我嗎?不幫你,高雄的話我不曉得怎麼有這樣特殊的優待,86億、81億,零頭我們都不找。"},{"start":11011.923,"end":11012.264,"text":"我跟委員報告齁。"},{"start":11024.261,"end":11025.642,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查),"},{"start":11050.64,"end":11078.745,"text":"因為我接到了消息這樣子,我也跟陳部長,前任的陳部長一次答應給我9000萬要去改卷,我把他拒絕掉。我感覺這些泡泡腸通,我不希望做這樣的事情。我要替我們農業部,ECS打造一個榮耕漁港的名氣。現在給你們這邊提出來什麼?我希望你能遷入負擔,因為苗栗縣的財政確實困難。你大發慈悲一下。"},{"start":11079.685,"end":11081.467,"text":"因為我看你們對綠色的就全有的不是,對比較藍色的話"},{"start":11098.206,"end":11114.363,"text":"我以我的態度絕對不會這樣,我絕對看他的重要性啊。我們看他的重要性啊。所以你來當部長是我期望的欸。我說這個人很好。你當代理次長的時候,我不是在跟你吵架的欸。我不會。因為從你講話裡面我都曉得你很實在很務實的人啊。"},{"start":11116.245,"end":11138.053,"text":"現在我今天的重點,一個冷漉溫暖中心,苗栗縣不要缺席。第二個,龍鳳漁港要求的不多,那個叫做龍鳳漁後直銷,我現在只要求一億。其他的地方我會找別的單位來要,你來存錢喔,來幫幫我們苗栗縣好不好。"},{"start":11140.37,"end":11142.952,"text":"我不會輕易的答應任何、承諾任何的實際的經費。我看不到那個計畫書的規模。我絕對不會輕易的,但是我"},{"start":11157.641,"end":11185.643,"text":"我同意苗栗現在物流的部分不能那個網絡一定會在那龍鳳漁港本身的建設有它的必要性因為我們看的評估報告是的確有必要所以我要看那個計畫書的內容我們會給予適當的協助我跟保廉說我們的那個農業事業可有時候沒錢膽子就小了寫的計畫太小都被我罵過了但是你配我一下觀念大溪谷計畫"},{"start":11187.022,"end":11211.357,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11212.073,"end":11212.093,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":11239.036,"end":11243.099,"text":"對,溫柔的質詢。謝謝接下來我們請許富奎委員請做詢答謝主席,有請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":11262.486,"end":11262.626,"text":"主席"},{"start":11280.589,"end":11307.585,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":11308.146,"end":11318.175,"text":"月3號漁業署辦一個記者會行銷黑鮪魚之後,在6天後就宣布今年黑鮪魚的漁獲補貨量已達9成,要漁民禁止捕撈。"},{"start":11323.88,"end":11332.262,"text":" »: 請教一下部長目前我們掌握到的狀況是怎麼樣我跟委員說明一下就是去年跟今年特別是今年我們的漁獲量有比較多整個整體的漁獲量的部分那相對的它更密集所以我們"},{"start":11353.508,"end":11381.103,"text":"我們內部也做了檢討就是說我們對於整個的一個捕撈的時間序列的數量沒有非常及時的讓我們的漁民知道透過漁業廣播電台我想這部分我們會改進而且以我現在希望用數位化的資訊讓更多的產交資訊讓漁民知道我想這個部分我們會改進然後第二個部分就是6月9號本身去宣布只有兩天的時間"},{"start":11382.534,"end":11397.722,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11397.722,"end":11415.35,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11415.35,"end":11433.985,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11434.045,"end":11458.071,"text":" bicy 第三個部分就是我們的配額1965噸年配額我們也在積極的跟那個中西太平洋的委員協會去協調因為一個很死的那個縣對於漁民有沒有捕撈可能會超過嘛應該有適當的緩衝期啦那我更不能接受以我個人不能接受說漁民捕撈到的"},{"start":11458.831,"end":11488.695,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11488.695,"end":11505.469,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11505.589,"end":11524.345,"text":"每一天的速度都很快啊,那我們現在也掌握到說,到底有多少船隻在我們這個海域在追,你們都非常清楚。但是反過頭來,漁民抱怨是什麼?你們只會發錢而已,難道我們在漁民面前在抓魚嗎?說不夠勒,反而要他們把這個辛苦捕獲的漁獲把它丟棄到海上,這樣子對嗎?"},{"start":11527.287,"end":11544.793,"text":"沒有,所以我才會說在國際上的這些配額本身它是一條線我們一直在爭取它是一個百分比就是1965的百分之上下百分之五那這樣的話就能夠減緩就是接近配額的這些魚就算捕撈到了我們也可以把它載回港"},{"start":11546.469,"end":11565.497,"text":"議長本期要求的是說因為這樣的問題不只今年會發生明年後年我們是不是有一樣的怎麼樣的配套措施因為我們現在整個通報系統我們只有局限在所謂的一個漁會嘛並沒有下達到所謂的一個漁民就在漁民都說我們這裡的同地啊我們中間在忙啊所以"},{"start":11565.977,"end":11592.898,"text":"甚至我們有廣播電台有APP系統我們為什麼都沒有善用這些系統來做處理呢?我想我們的通報還是有透過漁業廣播電台去通報但是我們會跟進進就是從開始捕獲的第一天我希望是逐天的針對這些漁獲量能夠做一個統計然後根據當天的漁獲量去做一個預測什麼時候會達到這個配額那這樣子的話讓漁民很清楚的了解"},{"start":11593.899,"end":11609.206,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11609.546,"end":11630.963,"text":"呃,部長,本席有兩個要求齁。第一個,在兩個禮拜之內,針對我們這一次的檢討報告還有未來的配合措施提供一份書面報告給本席。第一個,針對現在目前在船上海上作業的漁民跟現在已經在陸上做好整備的一些漁民,後續怎麼樣賠償他們的損失的部分,也提出一個書面報告。"},{"start":11632.404,"end":11654.033,"text":"我們不要用賠償這個損失啦,我想我們會有一個產業輔導的方式來協助這個部分。不管什麼名稱啦,市民的信息我們都要給他們賠償啦,這樣好不好?了解,我們會盡努力的去把那個相關的方案去做研議。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來我們請邱志維委員請做詢談。"},{"start":11664.639,"end":11667.942,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。"},{"start":11685.509,"end":11696.32,"text":"那這個我們在機場或者港口都有防檢局的同仁在對入出...對入境的旅客的隨身行李進行監檢嗎?包括托運行李嗎?"},{"start":11702.777,"end":11729.964,"text":"對,偷驗行李還有手提行李對,對不對?高風險區就是說它是從疫區過來的我們會那個每一個都是疫區啊?除了台灣、日本不見得因為其他的國家像日本來的我們就就相當的管制規則不一樣非日本之外的亞洲國家就只要是疫區的話只要是疫區的話就屬於高風險區我問你只有台灣跟日本非疫區嗎?其他都是疫區嗎?對不對?那是亞洲啊那美洲的部分美洲的部分大部分也是疫區嘛"},{"start":11730.544,"end":11734.957,"text":"美國也不是疫區啊所以你要看非疫區的國家我們就不用心理安檢對不對"},{"start":11736.212,"end":11763.754,"text":"你們如果去動線怎麼去區分你們知道嗎?瞭解我們我們實際實際在這已經執行一段時間了齁對日本有沒有相關的作為?日本有沒有相關的作為?也日本也是百分之百檢查我好幾次出入出入日本都沒有那個就是因為我們台灣不是疫區所以日本也不是疫區阿對所以相對的就是我們對日本的旅客齁我們的檢查的程度不是啦我們那個日本"},{"start":11764.701,"end":11785.23,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":11786.527,"end":11815.196,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":11816.032,"end":11839.189,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":11839.343,"end":11859.036,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11859.309,"end":11860.31,"text":"我會後再去檢討我會後我會去檢討我去瞭解"},{"start":11879.961,"end":11907.647,"text":"如果你帶一個泡麵,泡麵是豬肉泡麵,這個有沒有違法?泡麵可以。所以你要加上宣導,很多人不知道,你第一線在這個還沒有進海關之前,你如果被說到說有這個漏製品,你當下丟掉,沒事,對不對?到哪邊才有事?到海關的時候。那海關是會檢查的比例是多少?現在首提的是百分之百。"},{"start":11908.669,"end":11911.236,"text":"然後脫銀行李的話是在下面轉賣的時候。關手提行李100%"},{"start":11913.131,"end":11939.616,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":11940.236,"end":11964.498,"text":"你抽選的比例很低哩。比日本低很多。日本基本10個大概有8個7個先看護照然後看你心裡看一看。你們都沒有做到這一點。你既然要從嚴但你就要執法要確實。執法一定要落實我想我會後再去重新做專案檢討。看看哪邊是有漏洞的。我是我看到的跟你們說啦。謝謝委員的提醒。"},{"start":11966.363,"end":11991.207,"text":" 那今天這個租診療師在從2006就開始推動立法2016有這個版本出來然後這個如果沒有意外的話這一屆會過因為是也許快的話這個會起因為是跨黨派的版本都有包括院版也有所以這個立法完成之後"},{"start":11992.961,"end":11996.643,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚。"},{"start":12023.004,"end":12026.985,"text":"對,我知道。所以我想我們會再更積極的包括利害關心人包括農藥販賣業者包括農民。"},{"start":12045.796,"end":12075.107,"text":"不會反而農民本身的用藥會更精準他農藥的使用費可能可以下降好那另外還有一個很多人提出的問題就是說會不會跟原液機師跟農液機師啊對他的業務重疊這個也不會這個完全不會有影響你要讓這些原液機師跟農液機師知道說我植物診療師法通過之後對你們的業務不會造成影響這個我想我們已經持續在一年多早期可能有一些餘裕啦"},{"start":12075.367,"end":12105.111,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12105.211,"end":12124.939,"text":" 那培養這些植物的這個所謂診療師目前大概有儲備了幾位?我們現在目前用事辦的方式用儲備植物醫師大概100位啦。然後我們預估法通過以後我們的目標就是一年300位。那你預估一線的需求大概需要多少?"},{"start":12125.299,"end":12144.087,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":12144.087,"end":12159.698,"text":" bicy 齁,那你現在只有100位,那你檢查的培育也沒有那麼快。 齁,那你現在只有100位,那你檢查的培育也沒有那麼快。 沒有,已經有很多畢業的人齁,他是已經有資格的知識。 他要去考照啊。 對,但是還要經過考照,所以我們現在在同步。 所以他是用實習植物診療師是嗎?"},{"start":12159.698,"end":12160.479,"text":"儲備。 儲備還是實習?"},{"start":12160.479,"end":12165.082,"text":"儲備。 沒有考照,就算實習嘛。 他還是儲備。 我們現在是用儲備。 儲備能不能執行業務?"},{"start":12165.082,"end":12166.143,"text":"儲備能不能執行業務?"},{"start":12166.143,"end":12166.784,"text":"儲備能不能執行業務嘛。"},{"start":12171.052,"end":12176.021,"text":"他還是可以做診斷,只是不能做簽證的業務,就是不能開證明。那你這個國考的證照什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":12183.675,"end":12201.81,"text":" »: 法的部分通過了以後我相信我們跟那個考試已經跟跟考選部已經談得差不多了那接下來我想我們所以你立法通過之後到你那個實際上的植物診療師實行簽證業務我相信上個月之內國家考試就會就會就會有一個定版然後好幾次"},{"start":12203.114,"end":12216.903,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":12217.5,"end":12247.363,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":12249.721,"end":12262.897,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請侯孟楷委員請做詢答謝謝我們中午不休息到會議結束 謝謝好主席謝謝麻煩請陳部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":12272.402,"end":12299.312,"text":"好,部長那個植物診療師我想非常的重要但是本席有另外一個議題也要跟您就教就是所謂的獸醫師啊動物醫師也相關重要那剛剛我們很多委員都在詢問是說那植物治療師、診療師他到底什麼時候如果法通過之後你說三個月內可以出來考試相關的部分相關的規範相關的規範那預計什麼時候可以上線來做考試"},{"start":12301.186,"end":12320.739,"text":"這個因為我們規範出來以後那因為考選部那邊我們會溝通啦我們是我們個人的期待就是農業部的期待今年年底有辦法嗎我們是希望在年底就是半年能夠有機會因為很多人在那邊等了是很多人在那邊等好那一樣很多人也在等我們2021年通過獸醫師法的修法第30條偵測動物醫事助理通過"},{"start":12327.099,"end":12347.937,"text":" 那時候動物醫師助理最主要就是我們希望能夠解決現在的這個獸醫院它可能有很多的醫療行為是沒有辦法讓獸醫師一個人來去做處理所以說希望有助理就如同我們人醫有護士一樣動物醫師助理就等於是獸醫的護士來協助做一些醫療的行為"},{"start":12349.298,"end":12378.662,"text":"但是2021年的5月修法通過到目前2024年3年過去了動物醫師助理的制度現在怎麼還沒有出來我是不是可以請保健署這邊做一個說明簡單說明一下因為本市一直在追啊3年欸是謝謝委員我們是在112年3月是發布這個動物醫師助理的認證機構的認定去年的3月核可認定辦法終於出來那已經兩年了"},{"start":12378.922,"end":12402.436,"text":" 那從去年3月到現在6月的時間,一年三個月又過去了。 是。因為我們要對他做認證,所以他同年的12月他就開始送件。然後我們在112年12月跟112年2月就召開審查會。那我們今年112年的5月,我們就合訂了他獸醫師公會全聯會是一個合可的認證機構。 是嗎?"},{"start":12403.937,"end":12428.499,"text":"這些本席也都已經有詢問過都了解我現在只是想請教獸醫師公會全國聯合會現在也研擬要開班準備到各區辦說明會那什麼時候可以考試8月的時候我們就可以受理報名因為全聯會在這個月的19號跟26號要開一個辦理這個說明會讓大家知道怎麼去做那預計8月的時候就受理報名"},{"start":12429.9,"end":12454.46,"text":"閱讀者完成216小時的課程以後通過考試就可以取得認證那今年應該...所以現在是我們的規劃方向是只要授課完畢通過考試通過全聯會所舉辦的考試是不是就可以取得這個認證資格就可以符合我們獸醫師法30條的動物醫師助理的資格對不對那初期規劃會有多少名額"},{"start":12456.464,"end":12460.679,"text":"呃要看要看報名啦應該有幾百人應該是沒問題來好部長麻煩"},{"start":12462.46,"end":12490.942,"text":"議長,本席為什麼會那麼重視因為相對來說動物、植物都很重要我想這也是我們未來的趨勢跟現在社會的一個常態那很多人都認為是說獸醫師過去大家也都希望說能夠合格認定也因此才會想說既然動物醫師助理有這樣的一個制度很多獸醫師每年那個獸醫師節或獸醫師公會的時候也都邀請我的時候我都會講是說我們2021年就修法通過了但在三年的時間一直沒有出來那"},{"start":12491.903,"end":12509.172,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12509.474,"end":12537.354,"text":"有農學院的學校來提供場地來上課分別是台灣大學、中興大學、嘉義大學跟屏東科技大學看得出來應該就是北、中、南的一個狀況可是本席還是呼籲跟建議應該要更擴大一點至少縣市的部分如果說能夠有一個縣市能夠來配合你這樣子會對於地方上的這些需求比較有所幫助部長能夠同意嗎?"},{"start":12537.894,"end":12566.172,"text":"我想非常同意齁特別是對委員趕到抱歉就是112年3月發布以後這麼多時間了還沒有特殊的進展雖然說現在8月才開始報名總算開始啦我想以後我會針對這個案子去做專案列管因為我覺得一個法的目的是要解決一些問題結果法通過了以後你的後端的執行面拉太長的話就失去當初我們委員大家努力讓法通過的一個目標啦所以這個部分我想我以農業部"},{"start":12566.852,"end":12595.469,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12595.509,"end":12605.714,"text":"所以我想我會用專案的方式請我們督導次長去做一個比較完善的規劃,而不是讓全聯會自己去設計遊戲規則。包括我們的續展試驗所,受益所也可以當作一個訓練的機構。這個部分我想我們會來努力。"},{"start":12614.218,"end":12642.262,"text":"好 謝謝部長很正面的回應喔本席因為從2021年就推動這樣的一個修法那本席也很重視其實動物的一個部分我們都一直要關注所以我其實已經不只一次講過了動物醫師助理的制度出來之後本席也會我也會第一個報名我也希望能夠變成是第一個動物醫師助理的制度出來之後我可以拿到相關身份的人也許未來我不一定"},{"start":12642.722,"end":12644.404,"text":"bedingt 216 個小時的上課我也一定會過去參與我也期待委員可以上那個植物診療師的"},{"start":12659.599,"end":12682.618,"text":"好,那就等那個出來啦好不好但是我至少動物醫師助理我是先宣告那我也希望今年年底之前動物醫師助理跟植物診療師這兩個部分都真的能夠推動並且能夠讓民眾來報考能夠產生我們動物醫師助理跟植物診療師有沒有把握我現在用專案列管就會追他們的一個時程好感謝部長謝謝"},{"start":12687.885,"end":12701.338,"text":"非常感謝黃孟楷委員他對於這個法案是非常的積極那因為有很多委員也都很關心所以剛剛我們也非常高興聽到部長說會專案列管那剛剛特別講到像線上上課這個應該都符合現在的時事"},{"start":12704.701,"end":12727.227,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12727.307,"end":12732.51,"text":"何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳、"},{"start":12747.517,"end":12749.258,"text":" »:委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚。゚。゚。゚。゚。゚。゚。゚。゚。"},{"start":12777.498,"end":12777.938,"text":" 請農業部提供答案。"},{"start":12804.838,"end":12831.681,"text":""}]}},{"id":"16005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16005","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d507799957011912f5e5a7d9476abbdb319186e52af124432a0ad5606e6c5f1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-13T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:46:00+08:00","duration":15315,"影片長度":"04:15:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 - 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﹏﹏"},{"start":2088.19,"end":2092.657,"text":"第二部分我們要談的是引導季專校院以彈性多元創新的方式經營來提高產業對接季專校院在面對少子化趨勢下學生的來源減少跟衝擊其實是比一般大學更為巨大"},{"start":2103.292,"end":2121.567,"text":"另外多數技高學生畢業後都傾向繼續升學而延後就業市場所以技高院校在培育學生適應未來產業的角色就變得更為重要教育部會透過引導技專院校以彈性多元創新的方式經營特別是去增強對產業的對接"},{"start":2123.749,"end":2146.461,"text":"例如我們會推動技高跟科大合作的3加2的類伍專的模式或是我們過去的產息2.0模式另外我們也推行學士後多元專長培地專案跟STEM領域學士後專班我們希望讓技專校園能夠更靈活地適應市場的需求並提升學生的就業競爭力"},{"start":2147.781,"end":2158.63,"text":"其中為了回應現行技高學生及家長對於深讀科技大學的期待同時我們也希望避免學生在技高階段只因為顧及到升學而忽略專業技術的學習所以我們在現有的這個學制的規劃下我們由技高跟科大、二專以及產業共同推動這個3加2的六五專模式"},{"start":2170.8,"end":2186.453,"text":"另外也因應職場工作專業技能、日新月異以及跨領域專業整合運用的需求的增加我們針對已經取得學士學位的而且有想要取得第二專長學士學位的需求者我們規劃這個大專院校辦理多元專長培力方案113學年度我們共合訂了33校143班將近2000名學生"},{"start":2194.319,"end":2218.607,"text":"另外,針對非STEM領域的學士以上的畢業者至112年我們也開始推動STEM領域學士後專班試辦計畫由學校跟產業界共同合作規劃跨領域課程進行產學協同教學並由產業提供業師、講助學金、實習津貼跟學生的職涯發展這個在113年學年度我們也合訂了17校32班1400多名的名額"},{"start":2223.052,"end":2245.054,"text":"第三個我們要談的就是說我們希望能夠來開始來形塑大專院校校園職場體驗的文化那來協助在校青年的職業發展那這個我們教育部未來我們已經有在做那我們在推動這個校園這個我們會推動這個校園企業見習專案來提供這個新創公司職場體驗的機會"},{"start":2246.936,"end":2273.419,"text":"並擴增職場體驗特色計畫的量能及範疇總之我們希望我們台灣的大學生能夠在未來能夠更形成一個文化是在大學就有機會去企業做interim在他畢業的時候他就其實就有這個職場的體驗跟過去的經驗在加入公司的時候我們會覺得台灣未來年輕人大家會覺得其實有經驗的這個是有在公司裡面是會"},{"start":2274.58,"end":2281.663,"text":"有戰力的那本部在大專院校推動職涯輔導補助計畫裡面我們會新增企業見習專案我們要加強大專院校跟企業的連結那這個專案我們邀請企業人員入校擔任業師或教練講授職場見習的課程提供職涯的諮詢那我們"},{"start":2296.409,"end":2312.761,"text":"也安排學生在在學期間進行職場的 intern去累積工作經驗提升就業競爭力另外為了提供更多新創公司的職場體驗機會本部結合了大專院校育成中心推動的U-STAR的創新創業計畫我們會讓這些公司給我們的學生去體驗"},{"start":2318.185,"end":2321.688,"text":"做職場體驗讓學生體驗到新創的工作環境進而有機會來激發他們的創業精神探索創新的職涯我們每年暑假也會辦理青年創業家見習機會我們每一盒學生到新創公司見習這個114年我們會再擴增見習職缺到100個人並逐年增加"},{"start":2343.685,"end":2357.899,"text":"我們本部也結合了公司部門推動的多項職場體驗計畫包括公部門的見習計畫社區職場體驗計畫以及青年工讀計畫我們希望能夠為在學的青年提供更多的職場體驗機會未來我們會開發更多的民間"},{"start":2362.463,"end":2362.503,"text":"提供討論．"},{"start":2385.814,"end":2387.597,"text":"繼續收集各方的意見作為未來相關的政策評估推動之參考謝謝"},{"start":2400.469,"end":2402.311,"text":"好,我們謝謝葉次長的口頭報告那現在我們就進行詢答每位初席委員質詢時間為6分鐘必要時候延長2分鐘列席的委員質詢的時間是4分鐘那發言登記截止的時間是上午10點30分"},{"start":2420.488,"end":2439.685,"text":"委員如果有臨時提案的話請在上午10點30分前提出並且在本委員會五屋村城委員質詢完畢之後我們就要立即處理處理提案的時候若提案委員不在場及聯署委員均不在場我們原例就不予處理我們首先請發言登記第一位的萬美林委員質詢"},{"start":2446.593,"end":2449.519,"text":"謝謝召委,我們有請葉丙成次長好,葉次長好,次長早"},{"start":2458.628,"end":2459.208,"text":"市長有注意到我們大漢技術學院的這個案件?"},{"start":2482.13,"end":2505.865,"text":"大漢技術學院的董事會在今年2月無預警地宣布在113年起依照私校法他要停教在114年他要停辦這引起我想全國都有在關注這件事情師生也非常的不滿那我請教一下次長大漢技術學院目前的狀況有沒有體質差的狀況包括財務惡化、失智不足或者學生受教權益這個檢核不通過有沒有"},{"start":2506.878,"end":2529.949,"text":"沒有沒有都沒有好所以呢大汗的這個董事會啊大家都在說疑似是要規避日後我們的校產啊被依照私校退場條例清算所以他用先斬後作的方式來突襲依據私校法第71條停招而且改辦那這種做法其實他是不顧教職員跟學生的權益讓教育部其實措手不及啦那剛剛次長也講到了我們沒有以上這三項問題喔那我們也知道"},{"start":2531.63,"end":2549.284,"text":"其實他如果要依照不管思想法70條、71條等等他都應該要先提出計畫要先來抱準才能夠往下做那他現在的做法就是倒行逆施到這種程度完全沒有抱準然後自行對外就宣布他要停招他要停辦這樣的一個做法教育部現在要怎麼做"},{"start":2550.951,"end":2558.798,"text":"市長,其實大漢董事會在上個禮拜上個禮拜三有再召開過校務會議但是高教工會有說因為他們現在自救嘛因為教育部看起來好像沒有辦法幫他們所以他們有過半數的教師是加入工會的所以到現在為止校方是沒有辦法把停辦計畫送出來那另外"},{"start":2577.014,"end":2596.54,"text":"校長為了要達成他自己要送出停辦計畫書的目的所以他也更換了校務會議的委員並且把工會原來的行政職務也解職了總之他用各種方式就是要自行的停辦停招這樣的一個做法請問一下從事情發生到現在教育部有沒有去溝通了解有沒有違法"},{"start":2602.976,"end":2623.694,"text":"市長你等他的這個送上來他今天就沒有送上來就已經對外就已經對外說他要停招停辦啦現在的問題不是要等他送上來這樣子教育部的做法太慢囉這個其實他並沒有對我我們的了解是這個並不是他們在對外講因為我覺得我們要他沒有在對外講那請問一下他今年還要繼續續招續辦嗎"},{"start":2625.959,"end":2628.208,"text":"我沒有看到他停辦計畫他今年還會繼續續辦續招嗎?你能保證他今年繼續續辦續招?"},{"start":2633.94,"end":2655.808,"text":"我請司長補充一下跟委員報告那今年113學年度能不能停招當然要等部裡面核定他才能夠確定所以現在沒有核定我請教一下他今年會不會續招我們還沒有核定前他當然可以續招所以如果他今年在你沒有核定前他就停招了有沒有違法"},{"start":2657.076,"end":2662.718,"text":"跟我們報告有沒有違法告訴我就好來次長請教一下那如果違法的話我們教育部要怎麼做如果違法的話我們當然是要依私效法來處理怎麼處理跟我們報告假如他針對停招這一個事由我們當然要看他你告訴我怎麼處理就好今天時間非常有限他們目前就我們知道他們已經有在招"},{"start":2687.072,"end":2700.962,"text":"市長您的意思是說這個媒體說他說對外要停招停辦都是媒體亂說的那這個都是空穴來風您現在的意思是這樣嗎不是不是空穴來風那如果他今年是停招的情況之下我們要怎麼去處理他"},{"start":2701.994,"end":2705.9,"text":"因為剛剛次長也說這違法了嘛讓他怎麼處理?次長也說違法了怎麼處理?所以我們還是會讓他單招因為他學校從110開始就已經是單招他不參加連招所以他的時間只要在開學前如果是這樣的話"},{"start":2717.256,"end":2746.084,"text":"他的計畫書現在還沒有送上來你也還沒有核准他如果他停照的話有違法的話教育部一定要出面我想這個此例不可開啊我們私校退場條例出來很多的私校其實都在擔心未來這個私校退場以後校產充公所以如果這個案子你們沒有好好處理的話會引起連鎖效應剛才次長在報告的時候也講少子化少子化現在我們的私校他擔憂那擔憂如果群起效由以後每一個人說不辦就不辦"},{"start":2746.844,"end":2765.882,"text":"請問一下我們學子的權益跟我們教職員的權益往哪來做保障呢所以呢我想因為今天的時間真的非常有限那我希望會後能夠司長再到我辦公室來我們把大漢的這個案子說清楚講明白那最後還是要用一點時間這個時間真的非常珍貴我請教一下次長次長"},{"start":2769.011,"end":2783.641,"text":"我直接來問您這個今天本席要問的一個部分就是您剛剛也有提到說您要提出一個3加2新5專模式說科大可以跟高職合作無論是用合併或雙聯學位的方法專一、專二、專三在高職就讀專四、專五在科大我想請教一下你這個案子一出來"},{"start":2789.365,"end":2800.471,"text":"這幾天不管是各個學校的校長不管是老師家長我們大家一頭霧水我請教一下這個是一個確定的案子嗎那你有跟這個高職或是專科或是科大開過會嗎這是個構想那我們在內部有討論過"},{"start":2806.274,"end":2830.003,"text":"這時是內部討論你完全都還沒有跟相關的學校來開過會喔還沒完全都沒有那次長本席在這裡真的要糾正喔這個東西喔您今天已經是次長了教育的政策我記得本席跟您說過我們一定不能喔一直翻轉一直翻轉你這樣拼命翻轉到最後會翻車啊你知道嗎所以呢我們過去20年教改革得太厲害了我們應該要先確定方向微調"},{"start":2831.643,"end":2842.13,"text":"現在教育部在開這部車子不能猛踩油門你要先確定方向嘛所以如果你都還沒有跟這個科大啦高職啦跟教育單位啦來溝通協調過對外就開始講這個3加2新武專模式本期覺得不太好那當然我再請教一下現在這個新武專模式你們說在內部開過會了嘛那這個將來上路的時候有沒有涉及修法還是現行的法規我們就可以作業"},{"start":2855.998,"end":2865.135,"text":"我們是用現行的法規就可以作業的現行的法規就可以作業好 那我請教一下3加2高神念了這個3年 科大念了2年那未來誰要去3加4"},{"start":2866.687,"end":2868.888,"text":"你說邊讀書是指3加2還是3加4?我跟你說當然是有 但是不是全部阿"},{"start":2890.839,"end":2913.726,"text":"所以你今天把3加2推出來我就請教一下未來3加4的部分誰要去讀那會不會造成科大其實現在也是很擔憂那3加2那本來可以收4年的學生現在變成2年這也是一個問題你有沒有考慮過這兩個是並行的我們沒有要去取代好那請教一下如果我們沒有要去取代現在到底是叫做合併還是叫做合作"},{"start":2914.206,"end":2914.666,"text":"到底要拿哪一個學位?"},{"start":2931.033,"end":2933.155,"text":"你到時候到底是科大去找高職還是高職去找科大還是教育部做媒人是哪一種?"},{"start":2951.977,"end":2975.74,"text":"他們倆其實像這個政策推出後舉例來講這樣已經有科大跟我們講說當地的高職技高就已經在找他們合作所以我們其實是希望科大跟高職一起合作去招生沒有那個一起合作啦一定是一起合作嘛你政策出來你就叫他們一起合作嘛那到底是科大要主動去找高職合作還是高職找科大合作還是你有一套政策你可以幫助他們用什麼方式去做媒合嘛這很重要呀"},{"start":2977.099,"end":2978.58,"text":"我們並沒有要強迫他們去做這個事情 沒有"},{"start":2995.613,"end":3024.023,"text":"市長我想強迫不來而且我也相信你這個政策的出發點是好意是美意但是呢本期還是要提醒您以及新上任的部長我們剛上來真的不要像過去歷任的部長一樣每一個部長上來好像都要改一下才代表自己是有這個教育的遠見我們真的要循規蹈矩按部就班來做那3加2這個政策沒有不好但是我看起來根本就還沒有一個完整的架構出來我們希望能夠更完整然後也跟相關厲害人"},{"start":3025.123,"end":3025.243,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝次長"},{"start":3060.543,"end":3060.743,"text":"葉丙成列席"},{"start":3071.837,"end":3089.874,"text":"好,次長好啊,我老實說你今天的這個口頭報告我還有點失望啊,你看啊我條列了你過去大家,你當然是人氣最紅的這個大學教授啊,你看不管是翻轉、創新、實驗、還有Coursera,還有這個創新教學都是新,就你今天一報告的還蠻傳統的。"},{"start":3091.86,"end":3106.886,"text":"所以這一點我以為你會稍微翻一下所以呢我只是期望你應該來翻轉教育部而是教育部把你捅哭變成教育部原本的一個模樣我們就一來就教育次長來我們來看一下AI而且我還是要先說一下"},{"start":3107.466,"end":3126.181,"text":"當你上任的時候很多南部的一些或是基層的老師其實很害怕身也轉、海也轉、不知道把教育轉到哪裡去然後也有很多南部的教授還是很期待你不要用台大、用台北來做出發點然後呢畢竟你的求學過程到一路到你就職的學校都是我們Top 2或是Top 1這樣子的一個基礎那怎樣的高校要怎麼走下去這是一些基層的老師所給你的一個期待"},{"start":3136.81,"end":3143.877,"text":"我們就一一來看你一直到講到這個STEM我也同意可是這是數據會說話經濟部也因為為了配合這個AI的一個趨勢說未來應該要培養20萬的AI的人才但是從你的報告還有從我們的資訊你可以顯示出我們從102年開始到111年"},{"start":3158.09,"end":3164.956,"text":"雖然是有少子化但是呢你可以看得出來STEM的學生減少的減幅大概是達到15%這是非常高的一個比率所以表示我們台灣雖然是個科技大廠但是學生願意進入這樣的一個系統的理工科的系統其實是有減少的一個趨勢"},{"start":3178.327,"end":3188.916,"text":"教育部特別提到我們希望能夠研發半導體的課程然後在112年來做示範我們先不要看你的同事講什麼你同意這件事嗎?教育部要來研發這個半導體的課程然後在我們這個高中的地方來做一些示範你覺得呢?"},{"start":3198.624,"end":3198.644,"text":"是!"},{"start":3213.823,"end":3220.27,"text":"但是呢我還是要請你來看一下你的同事也是我們臺大電子學院的張耀文院長就提到了其實呢108年弱化這個數理科才是半導體產業最大的一個殺手"},{"start":3229.139,"end":3231.442,"text":"他說那你也不用給我開什麼樣的部分我們台大目前為止對於很多學生把你送到我們台大啦 台大啊 這Top1的學校啊我們都可能對他們這個所謂的數理的基礎的核心數理 恐怕都還是要再加強 為什麼"},{"start":3245.179,"end":3248.641,"text":"99年的課綱必修課是16學分1108課綱只剩下8學分4個領域大概幾乎都可分到2學分而已我們再來看下面所以呢你看整個課綱來說的話他們認為這才是個最重要的你贊同他的講的話嗎報告委員這個可能是有誤解因為如果我們加上這個這個加深加廣的這個學分數的話其實是沒有減少的"},{"start":3270.453,"end":3270.594,"text":"我覺得還好"},{"start":3281.525,"end":3282.646,"text":"所以他的詢問能力會特別好,是不是?"},{"start":3302.66,"end":3305.641,"text":"還有一個明星高中的老師就講把中小學自然科學教育教好比半導體的課程更重要我只是要凸顯"},{"start":3330.945,"end":3349.857,"text":"目前來說呢,很多STEM的優勢正在很多人的消失,為什麼?因為很多學者在那邊都提出來我們理化教育的弱化這才是造成我們現在人才非常需要來討論的所以呢,當教育部長說誰說我們教育不好我告訴你,你真的跟他溝通一下好了,接下來我要來問一下這是必答題你是賴清德總統邀請你來當政策的嗎?"},{"start":3357.962,"end":3375.484,"text":"所以不是賴清德總統?為什麼?因為你要被他的教育政策來做背書你看他這個部分來說的話包括他的雙語教育你跟他在做這個不良大叔的時候你專訪他"},{"start":3376.585,"end":3380.669,"text":"他特別提出了2030四雙語教育的政策你身為高教的這個部分你覺得有沒有機會還有呢他也特別在他的就職演說當中認為應該遞出橄欖枝然後呢對於大陸的學生應該來做一個開放你目前為止掌管高教你有跟其他的學校來討論過陸生入學的這樣的相關的細節嗎"},{"start":3399.808,"end":3416.178,"text":"我們現在在陸生這件事情確實是我們是一直是我們現在是非常的有善意我們是抱著你開始跟這些大學來做這樣的處理了嗎但是現在的關鍵是在於說我們現在得到這個沒有問題你下面跟這些大學的部分裡面招生裡面討論這件事情"},{"start":3418.119,"end":3420.441,"text":"接下來他的雙語教育目前為止高就要執行EMR的全英語的課程那這是選擇題嗎還是必須要"},{"start":3443.081,"end":3464.687,"text":"你認為專業比較重要還是用一堆不通順的英文來教專業比較重要?報告章偉這個是學校來申請的所以並不是我們強迫他所以是個選項我告訴各位目前來說我們私校招收外籍的學生對英文來說你認為他有沒有門檻就你的理解你說私校招收外籍學生"},{"start":3465.807,"end":3482.222,"text":"有門檻沒有,現在你只要進來其實都可以所以呢這就是一個非常大的一個問題非常多這些很多學生都不是來自於英文不是他們的母語我們的大學老師也不是母語所以大家人就是用非母語的這語言都來做這樣一個教學而且呢國發會和教育部還攜手鼓勵非常多的移工來台灣念大學"},{"start":3488.547,"end":3489.749,"text":"次長,你知道很多東南亞的學生來台灣,念書最大的誘因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":3508.055,"end":3527.07,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們在這個新南向的這個專班其實我們在招生基地我們都有華語的課他要上到要檢定到A2的等級他才能夠來談我先問我剛剛問的問題你有點太緊張我問他說你覺得讓這些人到我們這邊來念書最大的誘因是什麼這些段小學生我想工作可能是他一個很大的誘因"},{"start":3527.09,"end":3542.254,"text":"是不是所以說打工很容易然後又有很多獎學金但我們台灣本土學生都沒有這麼多獎學金的時候他們比別人拿到更多的獎學金而且一拿就可以拿到工作證而且教育部只規定只規定你每週工作時數最多20小時但是呢很多時候國際處根本就沒有辦法從這個學校到底有沒有打工超時沒有辦法做到這樣的一個處理難怪非常多的東南亞學生過來而且你從106年開始你知道我們現在最多的東南亞學生是哪一國嗎"},{"start":3556.698,"end":3583.099,"text":"越南現在是越南之前是馬來西亞但是馬來西亞你可以看得出來他們增幅很大但現在已經急速下降為什麼因為中國大陸提供他們更大的一個誘因了所以我個人建議當中來說呢我覺得次長因為你的辨識度很高你應該你也不用為福出巡你就大膽的去出巡一下事實上我們投入這麼多高教的資源在我們這些地方當中我說實在你真的是可以把新南向的政策好好給翻轉一下"},{"start":3585.031,"end":3611.902,"text":"可以嗎?你這個績效來說我們現在遭受不到一些所謂真正的英語系的國家反而來自這新南向的國家這些以我在大學教學的一個經驗來說這些學生來對他們來說學費便宜有獎學金然後又可以打工我覺得這個對我們來說的話這個是我們台灣吸引新南向學生最大的一個目標嗎?這樣的聲援有辦法真正救到我們要急於平民邊"},{"start":3612.902,"end":3641.932,"text":"最後一個問題就是說有關我們私校的問題非常多人目前來說我們預估可能還有40所私校學校也面臨倒閉然後呢現在開始就有很多不僅是老師未來的出入問題還有包括他們未來該怎麼樣流浪教師還有更少人願意念博士然後未來的這個高教可能會面臨很多師資的不足這麼零零種種的問題你覺得有沒有一個可以解決的方法簡短的方式"},{"start":3642.532,"end":3667.054,"text":"我想先澄清一下跟召委報告40幾家裡面其實很多我們大學目前其實是沒有這種專輔的學校所以那個比較多大家在媒體上講可能比較是高中職這個部分我覺得40幾個學校裡面有人說60幾有人說40幾或許不是在明年可是照這樣的模式一直走下去的話我相信在未來10年之內"},{"start":3669.296,"end":3681.8,"text":"這樣的一個比率是非常高所以我才會特別提醒私校已經面臨一個所謂的退場的潮流流浪老師不願念博士所以大部分為了補足聲援都是來自不曉得要講什麼語言的新南下這些學生這都是我們台灣高等教育一個最大的問題我還是強調一次為了配合AI"},{"start":3690.762,"end":3691.342,"text":"我覺得這個數理基礎是重要的沒錯"},{"start":3708.407,"end":3708.867,"text":"接下來請林倩琦委員"},{"start":3739.462,"end":3740.023,"text":"謝謝張偉 我們有請葉政次次長"},{"start":3747.216,"end":3769.843,"text":"好,次長您好今天是本席跟您第一次的這個質詢那麼今天我們是針對這個喊了很久的這個面對少子化那麼高教如何來經營創新以及提高競爭力那今天的這個專報我想簡單來講就是因為您的辨識度很高所以我們也知道您以創意讓我們"},{"start":3772.364,"end":3798.501,"text":"感到很有希望所以我們期待透過您的創意能夠來對私校的問題還有這個高教的體系找到一些解方所以呢我想您應該知道私校倒閉是一個現在勢而且是未來的趨勢是吧目前有問題的學校其實已經都處理得差不多所以現在的學校其實大家都還在蠻努力的在轉型在經營"},{"start":3803.174,"end":3822.212,"text":"我不曉得您對於現在能不能找到這樣一個即時的解方有什麼樣子的看法?其實其中我想就是說我們是在鼓勵學校因應這個時代的改變還有它的當地聚落的特色去思考說它的學校可以怎麼樣轉型比如說像道江他們就轉型成為這個做長照"},{"start":3823.493,"end":3823.513,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":3842.833,"end":3867.895,"text":"二零三零之前我們要能夠招募到二十一萬人所以其實這個也是一個蠻大的一個私校的機會所以目前我們在這個所謂新南向專班這些在幾個國家 越南、印尼、菲律賓的這些招生基地其實很多的這些私校都很積極的在那邊招募學生也招募到我們最近在看的基地也招募到一些不錯的學生大概每年大概四、五千人"},{"start":3869.426,"end":3893.724,"text":"好的謝謝次長您這邊的一個說明本席今天想要強調的是這幾個月來倒閉潮其實持續發生那我們知道7月31號即將又有幾所學校倒閉那麼您這個解方我不曉得是不是有點魂不濟己您剛才講的是對於未來產業需要的人才那剛才結尾也這個非常的"},{"start":3896.71,"end":3898.571,"text":"我相信在你旁邊的司長應該可以跟您做一些分享"},{"start":3913.781,"end":3927.936,"text":"本席今天想要提的幾點來跟次長就教一下現在其實廢校整個有一個前奏跟危機那我想你應該知道偏鄉地區還有人口年長化以及外移的"},{"start":3928.677,"end":3928.697,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":3946.452,"end":3965.86,"text":"這個可能要很認真的思考另外,廢校連帶造成學區產業鏈的這個終止其實又影響了數以千計的家庭這個問題其實不只在學校可能未來整個社會也是一個很大的問題所以這個是本席跟您這邊提醒的廢校前的一個前奏跟危機那接下來本席要跟您說"},{"start":3967.34,"end":3982.572,"text":"有關於您在教育部在這個費校的整體的還有私校高校未來的一個發展那整體的這個狀況本席其實在先前提出了幾個法案的修訂那本席曾經針對私校法62條那這個"},{"start":3985.214,"end":4003.622,"text":"我們知道過去有相關的捐贈然後跟抵稅但是本席在這邊提到就是私校的捐款全數抵稅的這個部分跟私校法本席也提到了24條那對於畢業校友或優良的企業應該做一個評估跟接受那這個或許次長回去可以思考一下因為"},{"start":4005.303,"end":4026.6,"text":"這個部分62條或許大家可以來討論但是對於怎麼樣很多企業都是因為他那個要被廢掉的或是有危險的這個學校是他過去念過的學校那這些校友對於學校有一些感情那當然台大或者是我們念的學校可能都還不會有這樣的問題可是在地方上很多的學校都面臨這樣的問題而且即將就來到了"},{"start":4029.322,"end":4052.916,"text":"不是只有你們有沒有輔導的學校而是這個趨勢許多人算過20年內不會有私立學校了我不知道那個部裡面有沒有好好算過這樣一個數據那這樣一個狀況你怎麼樣現在推出來的政策都有點管不濟己那如何去處理現階段我們所看到的問題那接下來這個24條有一些人說這是這個突應條例但是很重要的一點就是"},{"start":4057.378,"end":4074.191,"text":"你能夠有什麼方式讓現在真正已經碰到問題而且不願意倒的如果他要安樂死那是另外一個問題或者是他要提前趕快處理就像剛才萬元委員所講的那你們還要去解釋一下那這些提前就直接倒掉的學校那你們又如何處理"},{"start":4075.566,"end":4077.848,"text":"本席希望教育部不要做的只有非常消極的列管"},{"start":4090.845,"end":4107.385,"text":"接受低價收購跟拆解分割那這樣子你不覺得這有失教育部的格調嗎這樣子的這個做法其實不夠有點低階啦也不夠教育部的格調所以你們在這個部分可不可以更有積極的作為"},{"start":4108.626,"end":4113.609,"text":"議員提到62條這件事情我覺得精神上原則上我們其實精神上我們是認同的但是就是說他的捐贈怎麼樣確保他的捐贈就是不會被濫用變成避稅或逃稅的這個監管這個部分我們覺得說這個我們還可以再研議"},{"start":4133.143,"end":4157.015,"text":"主要就是很不積極的東西你如何在現階段能夠處理那當然修法是一個方式那另外一個就是你如何投入一些資源把一些有特色的學校或者是它其實是經營的很好的學校那因為某種很小的原因結果就面臨了你們把它輔導或者是你現在說我們沒有輔導的學校可是問題是長久下去以台灣的狀況這些學校很多學校還是會碰到問題"},{"start":4158.075,"end":4181.749,"text":"所以不僅你們要趕快處理現在的問題而且未來的問題我相信你們現在也必須要很積極的處理另外您剛才萬委員這邊提到你們講到3加2的這個新武裝模式當然聽起來大家很震撼但是呢我剛才萬委員講的希望您能夠回去好好地做個思考另外我這邊提醒您的就是您在講3加2的新武裝模式然後科大跟高職的一個結合"},{"start":4182.349,"end":4197.942,"text":"其實萬委員剛才有問到就是說你如何招生這個是很直接的問題我們在好的國立院校或者是好的私校可能不會碰到這樣的問題可是在地方上太多的學校這十幾年都是這樣子的問題所以你們必須要思考那這樣一個大概"},{"start":4198.722,"end":4221.121,"text":"問年是這個招生的狀況兩個不太可能一起去招生但是呢你們這樣子的一個結果又拿到的是副學士的學位那以台灣家長來講副學士跟學士的差異我想這中間還是有一些考量所以你這個政策是不是能夠執行那它又跟過去的政策的差別在哪裡那如何有效的再做一些誘因應該是你這邊要"},{"start":4223.303,"end":4246.865,"text":"在更快一點、更整密一點的思考另外接下來你們有一個P-TECH新武專的模式我想這個都因為一些產業的導向這個產業的導向其實過去你們當然有幾個駐點讓中部、北部、南部有一些公專做一個駐點的基地但是我們知道其實有"},{"start":4250.768,"end":4252.249,"text":"主導的曾淑慧教授有說﹖"},{"start":4280.388,"end":4302.93,"text":"會留給社會,那我們教育是應該這樣子的嗎?我跟委員報告,所以這是為什麼我們希望透過新武專的方式讓這個曾經在台灣扮演很重要角色的武專能夠透過這樣的形式能夠因為我們現在看到幾個武專部這個現有的武專其實他都經營的蠻好的而且武專畢業的學生他的"},{"start":4303.73,"end":4313.074,"text":"謝謝次長那您在推動新武專的時候我認為您是不是可以好好的去了解一下過去的武專對台灣社會的貢獻那您在新武專這個部分真的也必須要跟大家談一談那您在新武專的這個概念中間有沒有哪一些部分沒有思考齊全的"},{"start":4333.082,"end":4348.416,"text":"所以我們不希望老是推出一個新的東西大家無所適從那其實原有的東西它其實相對穩定一個社會可以有創新但是我們必須在大家都懂的而且有對話的、了解的創新下它才會是創新要不然可能就是一陣混亂"},{"start":4349.416,"end":4363.684,"text":"今天看到你們報告我們知道這個部裡面是很有誠意但是我覺得我們不應該將少子化一直作為藉口這已經喊了20年那在剛開始的時候我們想大家都知道問題可是我們沒有解決跟處理這個問題讓我們喊了20年我不認為這個問題應該繼續喊下去這是一個"},{"start":4368.166,"end":4368.626,"text":"接下來我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":4408.552,"end":4411.093,"text":"謝謝主席 有請教育部葉丙成次長備詢"},{"start":4419.295,"end":4438.72,"text":"感謝次長很高興可以今天在這邊跟您有這樣子非常希望是會有影響力的對話那我想這個最近黃仁勳訪台聯一還持續那這個正在尋找輝達正在尋找地點來蓋新的或者是額外的總部"},{"start":4439.94,"end":4455.31,"text":"昨天經濟部的郭部長我一直非常支持他在能源政策有機會創新但他在備詢的時候說他要求揮打自帶50%的人才來台避免大量聘僱AI專才的工程師造成本地人才排擠的效應"},{"start":4456.511,"end":4478.374,"text":"我當然也覺得有一點創意因為有可能帶進來的人才可以做本地人才的培育但是在過去像鴻海在威斯康辛州設廠人家州政府的要求卻是要做local hire, global pay所以我想請教一下次長教育部做的人才培育的主責部會你怎麼看待經濟部長這樣的一個說法跟做法"},{"start":4480.086,"end":4494.871,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我自己從新創這個來的,那我們自己看到說其實這個大公司來台灣,其實對新創的產業來,新創公司來其實又愛又怕,但來他有機會帶進來一些新的know-how"},{"start":4495.732,"end":4523.895,"text":"但他同時間也會產生這個人才的磁吸效益那以我自己過去經驗來看臺灣很多學生進入到這些大型的外商公司比如說進入到Google或是這些公司像我的學生我進去以後我就沒有看到他們出來過那到底該進去還是要不進去啊所以像在美國的矽谷的話很多是他們去Google做個三年五年的事情他們就出來創業讓他們自己來業界但這樣的文化在臺灣還比較沒有出現所以您是支持郭部長這樣一半一半"},{"start":4524.454,"end":4544.503,"text":"我覺得我支持郭部長這一半一半的這樣的概念好很好那我們剛剛是這個其中一個例子而已那這樣到底對不對我們還是持續討論但是我們還有其他的企業也在加碼希望能夠來做本地的人才不管是排擠擴大還是培育我覺得有事情發生都是好事"},{"start":4545.243,"end":4553.809,"text":"我們來看一下當然排擠不是好事這個教育部要關注一下那我們來看這個投影片在這一頁裡面就可以看到台積電也要投入不超過40億最多40億去做半導體研究教學的人才培育"},{"start":4560.433,"end":4561.014,"text":"我們自己也有國家方案 也有"},{"start":4586.969,"end":4609.805,"text":"我想就是說這個不可諱言啦,半導體其實目前這個產業在台灣扮演相當重要的角色這是為什麼很多委員會關心說讀STEM的人有沒有增加或減少所以我們也看到就是說像台積電這個願意做這樣的事情我們其實是樂見但我覺得從教育部的立場是我們也必須要關注到說這個必須要平衡"},{"start":4610.666,"end":4611.847,"text":"黃宏勳在台大的演講點名了17所大學"},{"start":4638.12,"end":4654.828,"text":"但我們查了一下全台大專業院校150所左右跟人工智慧有關的系所或學程超過40所那想請教一下次長對這個有沒有看法就是他們跳下來自救也好啦幫助台灣也好啦但我們政府不能就在這邊拍拍手什麼都不做嘛"},{"start":4655.268,"end":4659.975,"text":"那我們到底是應該要強化就是說欸井上添花還是說我們應該要米平落差還是說兩手一攤這個問題我們在總質詢也提過想請教一下您的看法是什麼我們到底是要加碼加碼在一樣的地方還是我要米平落差還是我們就坐地觀望"},{"start":4672.486,"end":4672.586,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4703.106,"end":4716.014,"text":"我很贊成次長這樣的說法其實人才的培育、施肢也很重要那也希望可以持續在這一塊做一點準備我們未來還有更多的交流為什麼?其實這已經不只是台灣的問題國際都在關注了我這已經是大概第N次講了《紐約時報》3月指出中國大陸的AI的人才已經超過五成了我們現在一定要提早做準備"},{"start":4725.219,"end":4743.637,"text":"我們不要用兩三年後甚至可能不用兩三年我們又要來檢討說我們的AI人才從哪裡來的問題加上我們這個高階的人才很可能還有不足的問題我們看到這個相關的業界的調查提到博士誘因低科研人才所得低退休所得低有很多的3D現象"},{"start":4745.058,"end":4769.942,"text":"這些現象其實在日本有一些新的做法來做就是日本是2023年的8月份就說要向頂尖AI人才每年發放2000萬日幣我相信這個可能也包含人才也包含師資也包含產業那我想這種激勵的政策可能非常的重要那到底我們要怎麼做呢這個次長能不能發表一點點看法簡短的"},{"start":4770.59,"end":4797.655,"text":"我想說我覺得臺灣我們必須要有些事情我們必須要做的事情就是說其實我們自己這個培養出來的本土的PhD博士我覺得他們其實誇大體都非常好包括像我們現在人工智慧我們今天像李鴻毅教授或是像我想像保博士也是就是我們臺灣本土的博士我覺得相對於這個國際的業界在搶人我們自己必須要開始要培養這樣子的PhD的人來做我們未來的師資的這個未來儲備好我想"},{"start":4799.455,"end":4799.715,"text":"委員報告．"},{"start":4822.875,"end":4823.895,"text":"我想這還只是一個開始其實整個環境都在變化"},{"start":4842.6,"end":4858.866,"text":"包括我們研究生很優秀了可是他要有好的設備跟環境可以來運用這些算力嘛那我們的理解其實是這樣啦其實曾經有這個鼎大就開始在講說我們自己做了很多超級電腦笑笑買算力笑笑會不會算力都不足啊"},{"start":4859.626,"end":4877.964,"text":"蘇發部有一個、教育部有一個、國科有一個、經濟部會議又搞一個我們還有這個國家高速網路中心也搞一個我們各大學院校又搞一個那裡面的這個所謂的調動算力的這個界面又有點不一樣這個我們能不能做一個統合先是不是您回應一下有沒有一個統合的計畫"},{"start":4878.564,"end":4883.266,"text":"我聽說是各校又會編列他的計畫又再買一些GPU可能這個校又買了幾顆H100那個校又買了幾顆V100這個是不是可以稍微調查一下"},{"start":4902.012,"end":4917.352,"text":"希望讓大家可以集中起來但是當然有需要的話各自買一些也可以但是我覺得教育部應該要有一個統籌的觀點同時這還只是一部分我們剛剛講interface也很重要其實我有聽過鼎大有計算機中心或算力池"},{"start":4917.853,"end":4940.135,"text":"學生或老師就說這個interface不太好用要調動這個數據啦進出啦要重集啦cluster的這些運作啦其實用AWS可能還比較快當然我們只是舉例啦想請教一下次長教育部有沒有考慮乾脆直接補助大專業院校去購買或者合作這些國際大廠國際大廠都要來成立算力中心了嘛"},{"start":4940.675,"end":4951.512,"text":"有沒有機會能夠考慮不要用太多的時間和金錢土法煉鋼到時候各校的界面又長得不一樣每一個中心的界面又長得不一樣讓人可以專注在研究本身"},{"start":4953.356,"end":4972.109,"text":"其實我覺得剛剛委員講的這個觀念是非常好,就是這件事情這些台灣的率領應該盡量的能夠有機會統籌,一起來管理還有界面,還不是只是顯卡的問題那這個部分也因為這樣,所以因為目前是國防中心在做這樣的事情,我覺得從教育部的角度我們樂見這樣的事情,但是我們不宜這個另外在"},{"start":4973.07,"end":4974.271,"text":"昨天有跟部長稍微簡要的討論"},{"start":4990.899,"end":5014.617,"text":"本土語言教材其實是我們未來面對到大AI時代的一個非常重要的一個點也就是我們的文化如何在AI時代可以保存甚至發揚光大我們目前看到的很多AI教材學生學都已經很困難了之前這個昭偉有讓我們練過這個台語課程我回家還練習了兩次那這些內容其實也都是非常多人精心編轉的"},{"start":5015.718,"end":5037.698,"text":"這些內容有沒有機會交給AI時代的AI同學我覺得這也是一種翻轉教育嘛以前我們當然您是這一塊的專家啦翻轉教育是我們課程內容可以先準備了學生可以先學習之後呢再來跟老師練習或討論或跟同學討論我們現在的AI在全世界的網路上面學東西可是他們卻沒有拿到我們母語的"},{"start":5039.94,"end":5042.723,"text":"請問一下次長有沒有了解過現階段本土語言教材開放給AI訓練使用的可能性,實務上的困難有什麼?"},{"start":5065.466,"end":5088.167,"text":"這個部分其實像在臺大李鴻毅教授其實我在之前在當次長之前我們之前就有這些合作過什麼透過AI去幫孩子用講臺語然後他給臺灣臺語他給他評分這樣子但這件事情就是要再如果要再整合到現有的系統裡面包括我想現在這個英才網也有在做一些這個這方面把AI的導入我想這也是未來我們可能會努力的方向"},{"start":5088.467,"end":5089.607,"text":"希望教育部可以在一個月內提供相關"},{"start":5118.294,"end":5122.556,"text":"的意見回覆,可以嗎?好,沒有問題謝謝主席接下來我們請葉元之委員麻煩請次長葉丙成,次長謝謝好,次長次長"},{"start":5147.287,"end":5155.54,"text":"就是我們在報告裡面有看到我們現在有推一個叫做大學生跟計畫嘛那裡面有一個是USR嘛那現在USR進行到第幾期了"},{"start":5158.818,"end":5186.633,"text":"從106開始第幾期?第三期現在第三期那第四期什麼時候要開始?第四期從明年114明年114開始這已經確定了嗎?現在大學有在講一個疑慮說教育部現在好像有在規劃說第四期結束之後就要把它停掉了有這件事情嗎?完全沒有對不對?所以大學有點多慮了所以這個USR計畫會一直持續下去是不是?"},{"start":5187.916,"end":5210.238,"text":"我問次長就確定齁?確定USR計畫會一直持續下去?確定齁?我補充一下跟委員報告我們第四期是114到116這三年一定會把它執行完後續我們會來規劃下一期那下一期經費我們也會持續的來爭取那如果是這樣的話那當然就是"},{"start":5211.159,"end":5237.989,"text":"對大學來說就可以放心為什麼?因為我想跟次長報告其實我個人認為說這個USR就是大學社會實踐計畫其實是蠻應該做的因為當初教育部在推動這個計畫的時候有強調我們要以人為本在地連結、科技輔助讓學生從做中學社區結合那因為有結合SDGs的16項計畫所以在我們社會上各個層面其實都有發揮一定的作用"},{"start":5239.189,"end":5264.494,"text":"特別是我覺得可以加強開放高齡的這個項目為什麼?因為明年就是超高齡化社會就我所知有一些大學在做高齡這個項目實際上是做得不錯的而且我非常鼓勵大學來做這一塊我當然知道坊間有很多單位都在做高齡教育但是大學有其他單位沒有的特質比如第一個我們大學裡面有研究能量"},{"start":5265.234,"end":5287.263,"text":"所以在大學推廣高齡教育的USR計畫的時候他可以透過他們的研究能量來訂定一個比較嚴謹的前中後側可以確定說長者參與這個計畫之後他實質在活躍老化這一塊不管在身體心靈或是人際健康各方面他都有一定的成長這個是有科學數據可以驗證的就不像說有一些"},{"start":5288.203,"end":5316.732,"text":"有一些單位也許就是說請長輩來上個課但是到最後上完課到底得到什麼有沒有效果其實它那個是沒有辦法量化跟質化所以大學做這個我覺得有第一個優勢第二個優勢是在大學特別是我覺得教育部應該更鼓勵這一塊就是親迎共學我們現在教育部是不是也有在鼓勵代兼學習有嗎有相關的計畫嗎代兼學習親迎共學親迎共榮還有很多講法"},{"start":5325.65,"end":5338.236,"text":"但是我覺得在大學裡面可以促進親共學習因為我有了解一些在大學推廣的這種長輩的方案實際上那些長輩到大學裡面他看到很多大學生"},{"start":5339.662,"end":5366.329,"text":"在他的周邊實際上他們覺得心情都變輕鬆了而且他們願意很願意走入校園裡面去跟大學生打成一片而且不管是長輩對青年或者是這些大學生看長輩長時間相處下來對於彼此的刻板印象都有消除的作用所以青年共學這塊是非常重要還有第三個可能次長或者是司長不太了解你知道我跟長輩聊過他們去大學上這種課"},{"start":5367.829,"end":5388.323,"text":"他們會對那個大學有認同感會刺激他們不斷想要再去會延長他們的終身學習因為也許說他們在年輕的時候沒有上大學但他現在可能就覺得說我是一個某某大學的學生我每天去上課了跟家人說我要去上學了其實對他來說是有一個強烈認同感這對於回味老化是有幫助"},{"start":5389.784,"end":5414.614,"text":"我還建議說教育部你可以考慮啦如果是在大學辦的這種高齡教育課程你可以頒一個畢業證書或者是發個學生證給他們讓他們感覺說真的是屬於大學的一份子可以讓他們更願意喔那所以我在這邊就建議啦因為因應2025超高齡社會竟然教育部剛剛也承諾了像這USR計畫就社會實驗計畫沒有要停嘛第四期要繼續嘛"},{"start":5415.894,"end":5440.527,"text":"那第5期我希望第5期第6期第7期都可以繼續下去因為大學現在擔心的是你把它斷掉之後要求大學自籌經費但他如果說沒有自籌經費沒有籌住成功的話這整個計畫斷掉那一方面我覺得很可惜第二方面這個計畫有延續性在延續當中的成果會因此的中斷所以不知道說剛剛這樣建議就是說兩個一個是一個確定了嘛計畫要繼續延續第二個是"},{"start":5444.989,"end":5450.597,"text":"增加高齡教育的這塊的補助的項目跟名額 這不知道這可不可以做到"},{"start":5452.293,"end":5475.357,"text":"我想我們這個高齡的這部分我們之前都有補助成立這個樂齡的學習中心然後結合這個大學來辦這個樂齡這個大學然後補助還有補助高齡的這個自主學習團體所以我想委員在講這個事情我們已經在做我就說因應超高齡化社會而且我覺得教育部也要去研究一下你們現在的高齡教育排批書是什麼時候訂的什麼時候訂的"},{"start":5481.877,"end":5490.703,"text":"因為我們有第二期的高齡教育忠誠計劃在執行計劃是什麼時候定的?我們基本上因為是第二期了對第二期的話我們是110...110...對不起那個時間110...108年到113年108年定的嘛對不對今年是113年已經過了五年了嘛"},{"start":5507.894,"end":5522.109,"text":"而且這五年間我們的高齡社會已經翻轉式的改變了啦次長都強調翻轉教育嘛因為現在高齡人口已經成為我們社會的主流了對吧"},{"start":5523.174,"end":5539.075,"text":"所以我們就研究一下了解一下到底現在我們的長輩們到底是需要什麼過去對長輩思維我覺得已經落伍了啦過去可能就覺得說讓長輩可能給點補助或者是讓他有一點健康"},{"start":5539.756,"end":5540.036,"text":"拜託教育部"},{"start":5570.356,"end":5594.788,"text":"我想跟委員報告我非常認同委員剛才講的所以我們其實我們現在已經在規劃就是說這個壯世代的多元學習其實過去可能比較高齡的長者那什麼時候會有那個剛講那個什麼白皮書什麼時候會出來白皮書可能還要一點時間但我們很多政策是讓壯世代可以剛才提到這第三你要有一個上位概念來推嘛你現在上位概念都還沒有確定"},{"start":5598.651,"end":5622.022,"text":"我再問一下很多大學現在覺得說少子化的問題他們現在面臨一個挑戰叫接觸學生這我之前有提過就是說因為他們現在要接108課綱的小朋友那108課綱的小朋友因為在高中的時候可能因為必修課減少了所以基礎的學習變弱了到大學之後一些比如說普通的物理、微積分什麼的跟不上"},{"start":5623.238,"end":5652.006,"text":"他們開始懷疑說他上大學是不是自己素質不好所以很多大學現在在補救教學這是一個很大的問題因為次長也來自於大學嘛我不知道說我們今天雖然談的是高等教育有沒有可能回過去討論一下108課綱對於高中的影響因為它也影響到大學這部分有沒有可能有調整的空間還是你們就打算以後反正上大學再補救就好了"},{"start":5653.651,"end":5670.819,"text":"我覺得這個問題還有它的一些因素比如說像我們現在是這個大學的二階段就是它有推薦跟考試分發但很多學生他就是推薦上了以後他就跟學校請假那他就要解決嘛因為我講的是問題嘛對不對我講的是問題那教育部應該如果發現有這個問題就是說現在的高中生上來之後還要大學開補救教學"},{"start":5676.561,"end":5680.263,"text":"我的重點應該是說大學應該不需要開補救教學應該是說高中就應該具備基本的高中的素質"},{"start":5695.752,"end":5696.052,"text":"接下來我們請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":5730.627,"end":5731.328,"text":"謝主席,請次長好,次長"},{"start":5738.357,"end":5756.176,"text":"市長早安在報告裡面說高教生跟第一期推動的成果第一期的計劃五年總共補助了837億元是以學生為主體教學核心是協助各大專案院校提升教學品質落實教學創新以及發展各校特色"},{"start":5756.736,"end":5779.633,"text":"那其中跨領域課程修課有106學年度的6萬多人提升到110學年度的28萬多人次增加了22萬3千多人次成長的比例高達342%那次長這樣的成果這樣的人次休息人次您肯定跨領域修課的成效嗎?"},{"start":5780.943,"end":5807.617,"text":"跟委員報告這個數據因為其實跟委員這個數據其實是涵蓋了碩博士的學生夜間部如果只看大學部的這個招這個休退學人數的話在111學年度的這個休學人數是三萬五千多人雖然我的圖表是這個我還沒講那裡我是問說這個跨領域休息的這個成長的這個百分比有百分之三百您覺得滿意嗎"},{"start":5809.258,"end":5827.516,"text":"我們對這個事情我覺得是一個很不錯的一個進步您不要緊張我覺得次長應該是會肯定這個成效但是好我們現在回到我的圖表我的這個頭一片就是這個休退學這個人數我看到這個表"},{"start":5827.756,"end":5844.984,"text":"其實110學年度的上下兩個學期學士的退學人數分別是兩萬八千多跟一萬一千多一萬四千多那另外有3.2萬名的學生是休學狀態那退學的樣態大宗就是覺得志趣不合跟休學預期會沒有復學"},{"start":5846.485,"end":5872.111,"text":"所以累計下來到了110年度呢我們有9萬多的這個休學人數跟8萬多的退學人數那這樣的人數其實我們1008課剛剛不是要適興教學跟多元學習嗎那這麼高的休退學人數尤其原住民的休學人數休退學人數各是3200多跟3400多那次長你覺得這個原因是在哪裡"},{"start":5873.671,"end":5889.835,"text":"委員報告,如果看休學的人數的話,現在看到這個八萬九萬這個數字是涵蓋的碩博士學生還有夜間部的學生,如果把這些扣除的話,在111學年度的這個休學人數是35771人,大概比110學年度降了大概一兩千人。可是真的是很高啊。"},{"start":5895.776,"end":5898.478,"text":"事實上我們重點不在於說人數少了或人數多了"},{"start":5910.868,"end":5930.331,"text":"他們說這樣多的學生他們選擇休退學我們去探究他原因在哪裡因為我們的課綱不是就是世青教學及多元學習嗎那在他們選擇的這個過程裡面是不是已經他有找到他的志向所以才去念大學選擇這樣的科系但是念了之後他又休退學是我們哪裡出了問題"},{"start":5931.672,"end":5958.752,"text":"這個應該這樣就是以對秩序不合而決定修退學的學生這個比例上大概百分之三十左右也就是這裡面大概是一萬多人那我必須講就是說108課上路之後我們當然期望更多學生其實因為探索他自己興趣的入學但也不可諱言我們這個社會還是有不少的家庭跟學生他其實還是認為說就是分數到哪裡沒有填哪個科系很可惜所以這是我們要努力的怎麼樣讓這樣的想法的學生能夠"},{"start":5959.232,"end":5971.941,"text":"讓學生可以真正的選擇到跟自己秩序相合的科系來就讀這個我覺得是我們應該去協助學生來了解這一塊再來就針對於教育經費的部分我們從圖表來看"},{"start":5974.318,"end":5990.71,"text":"我們雖然整體的教育預算從103的年度的8435億到111年有增加到9800多億但是如果以比例來看在我們國內的生產毛孺的比例卻是從5.19%降到4.33%減少0.86的百分比那這個減幅就高達是16.57的百分比"},{"start":6001.118,"end":6019.349,"text":"如果說以今年我們國內的生產毛額24.6兆元來講相對比例換算台灣的教育經費比103年度換算下來是少了2116億那明年公部門的這個教育經費占GDP的這個比例呢次長你有這個"},{"start":6021.532,"end":6037.672,"text":"報告委員我們的教育經費其實是一直都提高的但是過去這10年之所以從5.19%降到4.38%是因為臺灣經濟的成長就是成長太快了所以我們教育基本拉得不夠高但是我們的教育經費其實一直是在增加的"},{"start":6037.892,"end":6050.568,"text":"那其實台大前校長陳偉昭前校長建議說中央政府的教育經費不得低於國內生產盲人的6%那高等教育的經費成長率不得低於經濟成長率次長你覺得呢"},{"start":6053.218,"end":6075.765,"text":"我們認為在教育這方面的投資但是要越來越高那但是因為到底這個比例佔多少這個其實我們也要這個是整個政府整體上來講那其實這10年關於我們私部門的教育經費也一直維持這2100億加2001之間都沒有成長甚至更低那未來私校退場之後情況可能會更惡劣那次長你覺得有沒有什麼政策可以來提高私部門的這個教育經費"},{"start":6077.813,"end":6084.302,"text":"而如果以私校這個有私校退場之後那這個教育金這個私校的預算其實他將"},{"start":6085.923,"end":6113.511,"text":"市長,2023年高等教育改革論壇臺大陳維章前校長有總結提出個具體的建議他認為說高教資源部分期望能夠規劃8千億元的高等教育前瞻計畫來全面的改善高等教育的體質市長你覺得這可行嗎?我們會不會朝這個8千億元的高等教育前瞻計畫來演繹?"},{"start":6116.454,"end":6131.517,"text":"我必須坦白講這個是有困難的因為台灣整體的預算其實規模我們沒有辦法一下子這個提升到8000億這麼多這會排擠到那我們可以逐年增加我們逐年來向行政院來爭取可以嗎"},{"start":6134.598,"end":6154.447,"text":"次長其實我們期待我們的高教為國家帶來競爭力我們教育部也要先進好我們台灣未來高教的這個方向當然教育部在去年6月有提出一個博士生的獎學金的草案分為產學合作型跟學術發展型的這個獎金那獎金分別是由政府大學企業三方來出資最多呢"},{"start":6154.787,"end":6183.62,"text":"到博山可以領到一個月有7萬塊預計今年來上路今年會補助1200名然後逐年增加明年後年回到3600名來強化我們博士生的培育機制那目前請問今年的執行成效如何這個1200名的博士生真的有領到7萬塊嗎我們現在正在接受申請那6月7日為止其實申請的學員有大概1600多人那6月14日就是再過幾天截止我們預期會到2000多人以上那他們是真的可以領到7萬嗎"},{"start":6185.682,"end":6193.338,"text":"現在是4萬那個7萬只是當初的一個這個政策構想但是真的在落實及最後定案是4萬每個月"},{"start":6195.863,"end":6198.924,"text":"我們現在沒有分產學合作型或學術發展型就是博士生都一樣所以疑慮就是現在定額是4萬"},{"start":6216.42,"end":6241.929,"text":"我們有分定額補助跟加碼的補助那學校可以訂定相關規範去針對一些他參與產學合作的他可以另外再給他的給他所以產學合作的有可能是由業者這邊提供但是我們就只有學校跟政府這邊提供我們政府給他4萬我們就是我們會給同工部門這種那顧名思義就是說會有落差如果說他是在產學合作型的那他拿到獎學金可能就會比較高"},{"start":6242.726,"end":6262.875,"text":"這個如果是他在做是一個在業界很需要的一個問題業界願意付這個費用就這是樂觀其成的所以這也難怪說為什麼金鐘北一女他們的人設班會就取消了就停招就走入歷史因為相對來講對學生來講這樣的誘因是比較高因為他如果參加這樣的計畫然後他拿到教學金會高一點的話"},{"start":6263.135,"end":6282.423,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個因為高中生跟博士生其實還有很長的一段距離所以這個可能是部分原因但可能不是完全他們但本身是希望說其實人文社會的領域也是社會的根本是希望說產業不能偏廢就覺得說我們就是在產學合作或是說我們走高科技發展的這個部門就是比較吃香那他可能相對的會比較有我"},{"start":6289.906,"end":6290.086,"text":"好,謝謝次長"},{"start":6306.168,"end":6326.502,"text":"這個部分其實我還有很多問題但是我看那個我還有一個就是關於我們在高教資源的投注的這個部分這個部分我其實要跟你們討論一下我們民間團體依照去年過去的歷史的推估今年赴中國升學的大一新鮮人可能會比"},{"start":6327.262,"end":6330.683,"text":"市長你覺得這是什麼原因?報告委員 這個數據可能是有出入的我們掌握的數據沒有像媒體講的這麼多"},{"start":6347.569,"end":6367.435,"text":"其實在英國泰晤士高等教育的特刊最新的2024的世界大學排名我們只有台大是有入前200名而且排名是在第152那中國大陸的清華大學在這個排名已經獲得世界第12所以其實目前中國的大學在全球的排名是首屈一指"},{"start":6368.735,"end":6386.589,"text":"我們已經想方設法的要延攬外國的優秀人才來台而且盡力的保護我們國內的科技人才減少外流的情況之下一年有這麼多頂尖的學生不管去中國還是去其他國家求學這就是我們高教的警訊那其實針對這個在教育資源的投注的這個部分我們來比較一下在高教發展這個投注的經費以清華大學為例台灣的清華大學是我們國內頂尖的大學"},{"start":6394.935,"end":6395.435,"text":"次長您覺得?"},{"start":6418.822,"end":6443.129,"text":"我認同,所以這也是我們持續包括在博士生怎樣幫助老師有更多的資源來收學生所以這也是我們都在持續在努力還有幫助他收學生﹚次長本席覺得其實臺灣高教的這個問題不只是少子化還有國家願意投注多少資源來後執師自己以及培養學生目前我們臺灣的高教面臨的就是資源不足人才流失、國際競爭力衰退這個問題還有我們國家缺乏未來高教的這個發展藍圖"},{"start":6447.47,"end":6453.836,"text":"所以這個部分部長您有專業也希望您能發揮您的長才為高教加油謝謝主席我現在發現主席不管是6加2、8加2或10加2其實答案都是一樣的好 謝謝所以請你們的部長不要抱怨好不好雖然他是6加2但是他得到的成果跟昨天的8加2是一樣的接下來我們請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":6481.243,"end":6484.285,"text":"謝謝主席,我請葉丙成次長好,次長委員好次長好,過去你是臺大教授也擔任過臺大D-Squad的副院長也因為創辦教育所以領過總統創新獎所以過去我們都要叫你一聲老師但是現在呢,如果比起來公部門服務的"},{"start":6504.339,"end":6513.513,"text":"司令呢我大概虛掌你幾年所以呢如果說不敢說我是學姐但如果說有一些心得可以跟你分享的話首先我想你要非常非常感謝跟珍惜我們部裡面有非常優秀跟有經驗"},{"start":6519.261,"end":6546.758,"text":"然後了解教育行政現場實作的這些同仁團隊們對我們民意代表來講常常我們有一個想法跟一個提議我們必須要想盡辦法的經過很多次的討論跟溝通最後我們可以擬出一個輪廓的方案但是如果今天我們部長、次長我們有一個新的提案要出來你有一個很堅強的團隊可以做最好的後盾然後幫我們所有的學子"},{"start":6547.739,"end":6551.381,"text":"提出一個科興並且創新的方案所以我們非常的賦予期待那次長你不可取代的優勢跟強項呢就是你過去是非常受到學生熱愛跟喜愛的老師老師非常多但是學生喜歡的老師其實也沒有那麼多所以呢我們希望對你的期待就是在教育部裡面我們要聽見來自學生主體性的聲音以及思維"},{"start":6576.035,"end":6576.255,"text":"目前我們是希望怎麼樣來推動?"},{"start":6605.118,"end":6628.517,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個計畫我們希望是針對青年也不限於只是學生所以這個報告我們就是在18歲到35歲這裡面的這些年輕人怎麼樣讓他有機會可以去國外可以去有更多一些不一樣的經驗跟體驗再帶回來台灣那這是我們這個基金最主要在成立的目的"},{"start":6629.057,"end":6633.243,"text":"所以它也包含了進到產業學習或者是到教育機構學習的規劃都包含在內我看到你們預計要來諮詢青年學生的建議"},{"start":6642.944,"end":6664.698,"text":"我們目前打算怎麼做?我們會來舉辦座談會嗎?到校園裡面去嗎?還是怎麼來辦?我們有透過青年署去跟很多過去合作過的很多青年的團體 跟他們收集意見就是說就這個圓夢基金 大家覺得說怎麼樣做會更切合大家的需要這是我們現在正在收集的"},{"start":6664.818,"end":6675.563,"text":"收集意見我覺得非常重要那也希望要加入來自專家團體的建議包括來自食物界的產業界的能夠來協助我們這個計畫我們最希望是能夠提升青年學子的國際視野那也來提早培養產業的人才那講到這個技職教育體系其實我們也非常的重視我看到部長最近也提到"},{"start":6692.19,"end":6703.638,"text":"因為我們台灣這幾年我們有一個發展非常進步幅度很大就是我們太空產業太空產業計畫我們已經進到第三期了我們現在正在進行衛星的自主研發我們也在籌備我們的火箭發射廠同時台灣的大廠也已經打進國際的產業鏈所以我們其實是相當有規模所以我看到部長他在舉例說我們未來要來提升技職教育的時候他舉例也許我們可以來成立一個太空學校"},{"start":6723.491,"end":6750.689,"text":"這對台灣來講會是一個創舉在歐盟有太空總署美國太空中心都有教育方案那我們如果以即職學校的方式來成立太空學校這是一個非常先驅的做法所以說這個目前也是還在討論規劃當中那我們希望未來如果進行規劃一樣是要有來自教育界來自產業界的各方的意見進來"},{"start":6751.57,"end":6754.624,"text":"讓他做一個比較完備跟完整的規劃好不好"},{"start":6757.025,"end":6781.41,"text":"好,然後我也非常關心的是過去我在台北市議會當時我們就看到我們台北的北流中心跟我們教育部國教署有一個合作計畫就是要來推廣流行音樂的課程模組那國教署來找到種子教師跟北流一起合作進行培訓就是希望我們這些老師學習到了我們音樂的創作"},{"start":6786.191,"end":6801.727,"text":"來提出這個模組之後回到學校裡面去再去推廣這個流行音樂教育然後培養更多的教師人才所以我想請問這個計畫因為也進行了3、4年了嘛我們目前的種子教師回去這個種子有沒有開花結果這個部分我可能是請國教室的副組長幫我們報告一下"},{"start":6807.87,"end":6829.863,"text":"我想這些老師回到學校之後應該可以就是以他在這個計畫裡頭所學的課程然後就是會運用在他學校的那個課程裡面這些我們都是非常鼓勵的可以活化學校的課程好我需要你們提出具體的數字給我們"},{"start":6830.763,"end":6832.804,"text":"最後要跟這個次長討論我非常關心的北一大北一大的校長室開箱經過媒體的報導結果引來一陣風波然後呢這個媒體的IG變成學校對於學校宿舍"},{"start":6854.352,"end":6860.595,"text":"但為何學校現在宿舍的狀況看起來以學生的反應來說看起來是有非常多的問題所以教育部我們去了解了沒有"},{"start":6872.882,"end":6894.81,"text":"我們去了解他們的這個我們在110年已經補助了學校這個這個宿舍的這個共同生活圈的整體改善工程計畫我們已經補助了他這個預算是2576萬元目前這是他們的選擇啦他們現在是先完成了學生餐廳這邊的整建那宿舍這一塊是在宿舍什麼時候要開始修"},{"start":6900.274,"end":6924.631,"text":"因為已經有非常多學生在反映了所以我希望教育部你們要到現場去了解不要再坐在辦公室了我們有沒有要派員去學校了解我已經派員去了解過了禮拜二要去現場了解了解的情況要讓大家知道我們需要更充足的資訊那另外此次事件當中我非常關注因為北一大校內有老師指出"},{"start":6925.171,"end":6925.552,"text":"這教育部有聽過這個消息嗎?"},{"start":6944.69,"end":6972.926,"text":"我們從來沒有砍過北一大校方的預算啊為什麼學校去砍學生的這個助理的薪資呢這個我有沒有去了解這個我們要確定他到底是教學助理或行政助理但是回過頭來就是說他這個薪水這個這樣子一下子這樣減半我們也覺得這個是對教學品質不是一件好事這件事情是來次長你過去也是教授嘛你有沒有請過月薪三千的助理沒有啊"},{"start":6973.286,"end":6978.368,"text":"從來沒有嘛,我也當過教授的助理從來沒有領過這種薪資所以我請教育部務必北藝大的案件瞭解清楚再來,大學裡面不管是學系新助理還是教學新助理薪資有沒有因為學校方覺得預算不足然後去砍學生薪資這樣的狀況我希望你們整體性的去瞭解"},{"start":7001.718,"end":7028.76,"text":"我相信這可能不是一個個案那最後呢這一次北一大的事件教育部你們是什麼時候知道學校有這麼多的爭議學生有這麼多的抱怨你們透過什麼管道知道的所以你們也是看IG你們也是看IG看社群媒體看媒體報導我發現這一次的事件"},{"start":7030.459,"end":7047.177,"text":"反映出來是學生對於學校尤其是大學裡面行政的這個作業有所意見這個意見的表達其實非常的困難因為校方本身就是執行者學校會變成球員兼裁判"},{"start":7048.198,"end":7070.159,"text":"所以教育部要聽到學生的聲音竟然必須透過IG攝取媒體學生要報休學校宿舍竟然要去媒體的IG下面留言所以我希望我們教育部是不是可以有一個這個申訴的管道不管你要用信箱還是什麼樣的方式讓學生可以有更直接的方式來跟教育部表達心聲"},{"start":7072.3,"end":7073.28,"text":"謝謝主席有請次長"},{"start":7107.43,"end":7120.52,"text":"首先要跟你探討的是本席的母校東吳大學這兩天傳出一個事件就有人發現在東吳大學的中國東吳大學在中國的社群軟體的小紅書上有開一個帳號"},{"start":7123.702,"end":7137.377,"text":"這個帳號的第一篇發文就介紹東吳大學跟蘇州大學是同根同源的大學提到台灣的時候他是稱台灣地區不曉得次長你有沒有注意到這件事"},{"start":7138.198,"end":7139.238,"text":"學校端的回應是說這個小紅書帳號是委託上海的教育機構經營的雙方還沒有正式簽約"},{"start":7156.324,"end":7170.949,"text":"這個文章的文字也沒有經過校方的審核那就本席瞭解我當然很清楚說在少子化的趨勢之下我們要拓展聲援那勢必要往中國去招生可是這樣子"},{"start":7173.03,"end":7191.679,"text":"自稱為台灣地區就有矮化這個主權的疑慮所以是不是請教這個次長我們允許我們的台灣的大學自我矮化然後而去中國招生嗎或者說你有什麼樣的方法來規範這些招生的同時也可以兼顧台灣的主權次長"},{"start":7192.999,"end":7195.382,"text":"教育部政務次長葉丙成列席"},{"start":7214.44,"end":7237.001,"text":"這部分我們會來了解,就是說到底這個整個脈絡是什麼然後我們會確認這裡面有沒有一些他們應該要改進的地方再來要跟您請教的就是剛剛配委員有提到的就是北藝大的問題那北藝大除了宿舍的問題以外最近還傳出說校長把標案標給自己的兒子"},{"start":7238.964,"end":7250.24,"text":"議事違反公務人員利益衝突迴避法學生還質疑校長室的裝潢像美術館一樣而非校長自己說上倉庫"},{"start":7253.928,"end":7273.624,"text":"校長是這個裝潢那麼的華麗以外這個還有就是剛剛配議委員有提到就是助教費的問題他從每個月的6000然後砍成3000塊那我想這個這樣的爭議其實有點不斷不曉得您說禮拜二要去嗎"},{"start":7274.104,"end":7291.302,"text":"昨晚已經去過了,我們這禮拜有去過那是單純了解宿舍問題沒有沒有,還有包括像前面談到那個利益迴避的有沒有違反這個利益衝突這件事情那這個校長室的裝潢,而且校長室的裝潢不要給自己的兒子這件事情"},{"start":7292.763,"end":7292.903,"text":"好,好"},{"start":7309.093,"end":7318.585,"text":"我想這個要特別監督一下那另外我想跟你提到就是說AIE的教父當然黃仁勛現在來台灣先起一陣旋風那特別是他來台灣演講的時候有點名了17所的這個合作夥伴的大學"},{"start":7327.517,"end":7357.005,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":7357.065,"end":7378.811,"text":"特別連港澳生來台灣念書現在也都往這個方向去高度有興趣所以我想從教育部2023學校的基本概況統計結果來看就讀科技學生數本來的占比是46.9最多那社會類是34.1%那人文類只有18.9%"},{"start":7384.193,"end":7412.329,"text":"那跟2018相比那就真的有差喔科技類的比例就增加了3%3.6%那可是社會類跟人文類都降都下降那若從STEM領域的學生數占全體大專院校的這個比例來看的話那近5個學年也是增加2.8個百分點那我們從高中端來看男一中北一女見中的人"},{"start":7413.45,"end":7431.228,"text":"的人設班都因為招生不足而走向歷史當然也因應新課綱所以人設的內容有融入了日常的課程可是之前高中的類似語言的自由班或者人設班都很多學生搶了要進去可是現在都沒有了"},{"start":7432.029,"end":7458.407,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分這個現象我們必須要來正視那學生搶著念資通訊的相關科系除了要搭這個AI發展的浪潮以外我想更現實的因素就是前途這個前途的錢是錢金錢的錢因為我如果從媒體整理的新鮮人入行薪資來看入行薪資的地板可能大家差不多可是天花板就差很多"},{"start":7459.187,"end":7463.09,"text":"昨天政部長也有提到科技始終來人性如果沒有人文的素養跟"},{"start":7483.783,"end":7485.825,"text":"跟委員報告我們認為人文很重要而且特別在AI的時代這是更重要"},{"start":7511.647,"end":7512.867,"text":"在台大學生選的輔系是社會系"},{"start":7533.875,"end":7551.923,"text":"所以其實你會發現到說很多的同學他可能是念電機系像我們電機系有好幾個學生都選設計當輔系所以這是為什麼我們要推動這個彈性學制的概念舉個例子我前面講到說台大像這個校學式的概念他就是把科系切分成很多的小的領域專長那你今天如果說我今天不想被科系綁住我可能想要懂一點"},{"start":7552.463,"end":7579.381,"text":"我選一個資訊專長我想要懂一點心理我選一個心理的領域專長跟經濟的領域專長跟社會的領域專長他這樣就可以拿到校學室畢業所以未來會有越來越多的這種學生是跨領域他今天可能是有一個一到兩個專長領域是跟可能理工有關但是他會有其他兩個到三個領域專長是跟人文那我們想要推廣推動這樣的台進學生那就變成是人人都要修人文不是只修人文科系的學生"},{"start":7579.881,"end":7598.969,"text":"需要修人文這是我們要推動的方向其實市長在這部分要好好推那當然再來提到高教人才斷層的問題因為時間大我簡單講就是說現在大專院校的師資大部分是高齡化我想這個根據很多統計的數字我們都看得出來"},{"start":7600.209,"end":7610.173,"text":"現在除了少子化以外我覺得會在那個所謂高教師資繼續任職的為什麼會高齡化年輕人為什麼不願意進來我覺得還是所謂的薪資的問題那如果在產界的話昨天我在經濟委員會也有請教過你在產界的話可能在"},{"start":7623.298,"end":7623.318,"text":"市長﹗"},{"start":7649.737,"end":7674.338,"text":"我想主要我們現在就像委員剛才提到薪資是一個很重要的關鍵所以我們現在就是從這個彈性薪資這邊下手給教授們加薪那另外就是說我也為什麼會有這個重點科技學院就是說把產業也拉進來產業也很迫切感覺到說如果高教這個人才在老師的斷層也對他會有影響所以他們也會他們資金進來也可以再讓老師薪水有機會可以更高"},{"start":7674.838,"end":7694.053,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7694.633,"end":7696.895,"text":"接下來我們請羅廷偉委員在羅委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":7728.359,"end":7730.721,"text":"好謝謝主席有請次長次長"},{"start":7735.856,"end":7758.826,"text":"委員好好次長好次長你好我想說今天跟你就教這個少子化趨勢高教的相關問題從教育部送來的這個報告說真的我完全不知道在寫什麼我想只能靠益助資源並收盲制度引導跨域及彈性修業引導技專院以彈性多元創新的方式經營提高適應的韌性形塑大專院校職場體驗文化協助"},{"start":7761.007,"end":7773.086,"text":"在校青年職涯發展就可以培養出具有競爭高教的人才我真的覺得大大的一個問號我想請次長說說如何培育出競爭力的高教人才要怎麼做"},{"start":7773.735,"end":7797.154,"text":"我覺得一個很重要的關鍵還是在於說我們認為跟委員報告一個數據就是這個目前來講如果他有這個跨領域的這個專長的學生他在畢業出去之後他的薪資是比較高的高五千多塊那其實我們看到說其實跨領域面對一個變化很劇烈的一個世界其實他有這個跨領域的這個能力是就非常非常重要所以"},{"start":7797.634,"end":7798.254,"text":"但具體的一個問題我想跟你先探討一下"},{"start":7816.644,"end":7841.516,"text":"臺灣高等教育產業工會有批評在少子化的浪潮私立學校是首當其中其中有六成以上的私校卻僅佔兩成左右的補助導致資源不均那辦學亂象的層出不窮挑戰非常嚴峻這是第一個層次換不均的一個問題除此之外公立學校雖然有較多的補助但是整體而言仍然不夠我國中央政府總預算的漲幅超過7.2%"},{"start":7843.097,"end":7860.162,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7860.262,"end":7885.35,"text":"我想換不均的一個問題攸關私校退場偏鄉學校受教的影響權益無法獲得公平教育的一個機會換寡的問題則使得台灣整體學生在大環境下的競爭力受限沒有足夠的資源讓他們發光發熱這就是現在高教面臨的一個狀況對此面對高等教育產業工會所指出高教唯一的轉機就是邁向公共化"},{"start":7886.27,"end":7915.192,"text":"應由國家承擔高教的角色跟資源跟責任提高國家對於高等教育公共化的一個投入請問次長你認同這樣的觀點嗎還是你認為高教應該走市場化我想報委員我認同這樣的觀點這也是為什麼我會去補助私校的學雜費就是希望能夠拉平公校的學生跟私校學生在經濟上的負擔所以這個其實我們本來就是往這個方向在走的"},{"start":7915.762,"end":7941.616,"text":"好可是我們就可以看到我剛剛所提出的我們雖然有補助但我們希望能夠好可以更好就目前現在看到私校經營的問題政府的做法是私立大學3.5萬的一個補助政策但是呢私立學校文教協會理事長王玉文就指出這只會讓他們更傾向就讀都會區的私校偏鄉的私校會造成更大的衝擊這部分你有掌握嗎"},{"start":7944.033,"end":7954.427,"text":"這個問題我們要看今天這個分發的數據啦。不過就我們了解確實這個私校學長被補助的這個政策出來之後那確實我們有看到這些私校這個報導的這個就是"},{"start":7958.553,"end":7964.038,"text":"因公共化的立場教育部有何具體的政策策略幫助大學應對招生不足的一個挑戰確保教育資源不會被浪費這部分我覺得我們應該要幫他們想想那再來基於這個我們現在確保"},{"start":7984.096,"end":8001.817,"text":"大學課程緊設置要跟著時代發展我想這個部分您應該是更能夠讓我們獲得期待我對於這個之前你有來拜訪你的一個背景我們都希望說能夠給予這樣子的一個部分能夠更跟得上進度我想剛剛有的委員說要"},{"start":8003.399,"end":8003.859,"text":"教育部政務次長葉丙成列席"},{"start":8022.253,"end":8037.103,"text":"我想之前像政府都有所謂的這種嫁創計畫鼓勵這個教授去創業那現在的這些法規制度也有在往這方面鬆綁所以往這一部分從大學的角度這個是未來我想還是會持續在進行的"},{"start":8037.483,"end":8065.998,"text":"2016?"},{"start":8066.298,"end":8087.085,"text":"報告委員其實像現在蠻多科大都有在也有在一些就像科大就有派教授去支援一些這個技高這些課程相關比如特別像一些跟AI或是比較前瞻的課程但那是實體的但該委員報告分享的那件事情其實也是我們現在推動像比如像半導體或AI這些課程其實不是"},{"start":8087.825,"end":8089.766,"text":"這是我們應該重視的這也是2016年你說過的我想同樣2016年齁"},{"start":8112.717,"end":8139.303,"text":"除了大學端協助高中端發展學修課程外各大學也應該成立專責單位聘用專職人員對於國教制度教學持續作為深入的分析一方面將國教的現況傳達給大學各科系並把科系合作擬定最適合該系的學生作為選才的策略跟方向另一方面則是把大學端的國教期待"},{"start":8140.664,"end":8164.546,"text":"帶給國教端形成相輔相成的一個教育政策請問這方面目前辦理的狀況是什麼大學端跟委員報告就是我目前在各大學都有招生專業化辦公室他在做的事情就是剛才委員提到的是在正式應用上所以已經開始在規劃也會有已經在做已經在做已經在進行在進行相關的成效後續我們持續的追蹤如果有任何的資料也希望能夠會後提供給我們沒問題好不好"},{"start":8165.847,"end":8179.07,"text":"再來我要跟你探討的是說我們聘用專職人員將國教現況傳達給大學各科系並與各科系合作擬定最適合的選材這個方向具體的內容有沒有可以提供?台大中文系要怎麼選材?這個我就覺得我以前真的是太多話了"},{"start":8194.101,"end":8215.753,"text":"我覺得是看到你對於產業的熱情我並不覺得是多話我就是點出問題沒關係我們現在到了這個位置能不能再把這些部分去加以經濟修正跟委員報告這個就是像我去年在做的事情"},{"start":8216.493,"end":8245.712,"text":"我們自己在看到其實我們自己在業界創業看到人文社科領域的學生我們在業界用很多而且機會很多可是我們發現在學校裡面的學生對這部分的瞭解對產業這個不瞭解所以我們就會開課來做這個那我想這個事情也是我們未來會持續的怎麼樣幫助人文領域的學生更瞭解外面他有哪些可能的機會選擇那這個部分可能是我們當他知道他外面有哪些選項的時候他就不會那麼焦慮那願意念人文的學生"},{"start":8246.112,"end":8246.132,"text":"謝謝你"},{"start":8274.226,"end":8278.667,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝我們的羅委員,我們現在就休息五分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":8602.519,"end":8605.06,"text":"好,報告委員會我們就繼續開會接下來我們請郭鈺晴委員謝謝主席,有請次長好,我們請次長"},{"start":8623.815,"end":8639.524,"text":"市長早安好辛苦了我想這個內政部統計從這個1990年代台灣的每年的出生率那個時候的出生人次還高達了有30萬人但是2008年的時候已經跌破了20萬"},{"start":8641.205,"end":8665.922,"text":"同年如果大家還有印象的話其實台灣也開始進行所謂的教改廣設大學那其實人口數慢慢的減少少子化的現象其實早在很久以前我們其實都已經有意識到了那當時其實最高的大學的數量曾經高達了160所那一直到2023年我們的出生人口數現在只剩下135500多人"},{"start":8668.864,"end":8687.532,"text":"這是去年統計的一個資料那我想這個少子化的一個狀況其實我們都深有同感尤其是在學校端那不管是大學也好或者是高中職也好其實高中職可能在未來三年還要面臨將近有四五十間的學校可能要面臨退場"},{"start":8688.692,"end":8715.266,"text":"那大學更是那尤其是在今年其實我們已經知道了有四所四所的大學他們已經宣布要退場連之前其實這個明道大學他們在2022年的時候他們也特別說他們是希望能夠堅持下去因為他們學校關於所謂的農業的科系其實是不是辦得還不錯的但是也很遺憾的就是在今年的7月31號他們也即將要退場"},{"start":8718.529,"end":8733.389,"text":"目前我比較關心的就是彰化縣的明道大學的部分因為我們大概知道像大同技術學院或者是東方設計大學等等這其他三間的學生已經有被安排"},{"start":8737.914,"end":8748.025,"text":"但目前明道大學好像還有205個學生他們現在還在等待到底他們要何去何從這個部分我不曉得次長"},{"start":8748.746,"end":8748.886,"text":"主席"},{"start":8766.227,"end":8786.447,"text":"如果說因為他去這個這個有任何的比如他轉學這個學校的作業費或是住宿的這個費用的差異或是交通費這些我們都會由退場基金來補助就務必使同學不會因為學校的停辦他的轉學而受到任何的這個權益的受損這是我們非常重視的"},{"start":8787.208,"end":8799.695,"text":"我知道大家都很重視但是現在目前為止是明道大學有要承接的承接方在哪裡目前有這個已經弄得差不多我想我請這個梁副市長跟委員報告一下"},{"start":8800.936,"end":8820.901,"text":"各位委員報告有關明大大學這一部分我們會進行兩梯次的一個安置那目前第一梯次已經相關學校跟同學都已經有在match了然後我們估算大概可能還會再剩下大概100多人我們進行會在學習結束前會進行第二梯次的安置一定會把所有的同學都安置到所以目前不是我剛剛說的205人205人是之前的"},{"start":8823.862,"end":8852.581,"text":"現在已經剩下一百多人是這樣的意思嗎?對,就是我們會讓他們就在學習結束前我們一定會到安置到合適的學校去是,好那我想還是要盡快給校方一個方向我想學生其實在面臨他們在轉型的這個階段他們很多的學生大部分如果是校方提出我們即將要退場其實學生最在意的他們還是希望能夠在原校畢業"},{"start":8854.022,"end":8864.525,"text":"在原校得到他們的文憑接下來我們看到因為其實在我們的這個私校他會被列為所謂的專輔列為專輔之後其實大部分應該就是比較有能力的財團可能會來接管"},{"start":8872.628,"end":8888.906,"text":"但是呢最有能力的財團來接管之後是不是真的有心辦學然後他的公益性以及他的公共性其實也備受挑戰也可能會有一些爭議我舉比方來說學生的宿舍遭到出租"},{"start":8889.767,"end":8916.85,"text":"學生就被迫必須要另外尋求他住宿的地方然後再來就是他的教室有可能轉為他用這個也是目前我們可以看得到的現象那另外就是原本學校校方的人員他們在人事上被大幅的異動因為財團接手了嘛那這個部分我不曉得次長有沒有瞭解到目前現場的一些狀況其實真的有這麼大的問題產生"},{"start":8918.285,"end":8936.341,"text":"他如果是閒置空間的出租而且是在符合教育目的的話那這其實是對我們來說這個是可以的所以剛剛委員報告提到這件事情就是說宿舍出租或教室出租我們要去看他使用的目的是符合教育目的如果不是的話那他就不能出租"},{"start":8938.072,"end":8947.038,"text":"但是有的不是閒置的空間喔 有的是學生的宿舍喔所以這個部分是不是會跟當地的教育局或者是當地的縣市來做跟學校校方更緊密的一個連結才能夠知道他們的現狀 有追蹤嗎 這些"},{"start":8960.285,"end":8961.065,"text":"我們以這個學院來作為一個例子那大漢"},{"start":8981.637,"end":9005.598,"text":"在台灣東部有四分之五的學生是來自所謂的進修部也就是說他日間部的學生大概是100人那他夜間部的學生其實占大多數那現在其實他們就面臨到他們宣布停招之後大漢的學生面臨到不知道該怎麼辦才好因為同樣的一個縣市當中包含花蓮只有慈濟跟東華兩間學校那"},{"start":9008.6,"end":9036.845,"text":"問題是他們的校系他們學校的科系他原本的科系是東華或者是慈濟是沒有的那我不曉得今年宣布要停招的大漢技術學院目前他們你們碰到最大的一個狀況我不曉得有沒有深刻的一些了解跟委員報告大漢的這個有沒有要停辦停辦計畫沒有送到部裡面來所以我們現在不能說他我們不能確定我們沒有辦法說他就已經需要停辦所以這只是校方自己先說的是這意思嗎"},{"start":9037.768,"end":9065.175,"text":"但我回到委員剛才的問題若是一般性的原則如果今天有學校要停辦他的學生在附近沒有學校是他有相同領域的科學的話我們會在校外開專班我會請別的學校有同領域的教授在花蓮在那邊開專班讓這些學生幾乎當然還是他們自己的同學一起在專班一直念到畢業所以這個是如果是真的的話我沒有"},{"start":9065.855,"end":9080.028,"text":"現在你們有沒有直接跟大漢來做一個更進一步的一些聯繫?還沒合定,他計畫還沒送到我們這邊來那你們有試著先主動先去了解這個狀況嗎?有試著主動先了解,那大漢的說法是什麼?那我先請楊市長跟委員報告"},{"start":9081.509,"end":9108.397,"text":"跟委員報告假如學校要停招停辦那當然一定要經過校內的程序完備之後才可以把計畫報到教育部那大漢目前他在走他們校內的程序那校內程序走完之後才會把資料報來所以目前我們都還沒有核定他的停招跟停辦因為我們還沒有收到他"},{"start":9108.937,"end":9111.722,"text":"在花蓮地區我們目前看到的就餐飲"},{"start":9121.991,"end":9123.612,"text":"對,這樣花蓮地區的學生就有地方可以來就讀這樣的科系了"},{"start":9150.869,"end":9174.89,"text":"另外最後我再花一點點的時間我來就是想要請教一下我們的教育部教育部針對各校的註冊率其實來判斷所謂的我要不要補助這間學校的一個標準但是這個所謂的註冊率其實它又含有所謂的一個寄存名額的一個方式的一個存在那我想這個寄存名額的部分其實是會美化那個數字那相對的來講"},{"start":9175.831,"end":9204.073,"text":"其實也會透露出有一些學校他堅持其實已經招不到學生了但是他目前因為董事會還在運作他也有可能因為我的數字要弄得漂亮我教育部會補助嘛他不願意表明我是不是真的要退場這個部分其實我希望教育部可能還是要主動的先去了解因為這很有可能會產生校方尤其是在董事會的一些弊端這個部分這個部分是不是可以"},{"start":9206.675,"end":9234.434,"text":"也跟委員報告其實寄存招生名額這也是給大學一個彈性因為其實事實上很多的領域有時候他興起了他先需要更多可以招更多的人那這個名額其實他可以在動態的去做調整那至於委員剛剛提到說他這個數據是會美化或是幹什麼我們其實這些所有的數據我們認為都應該要透明公開所以在大專校院的校務資訊平台上面都可以看得到"},{"start":9234.754,"end":9259.829,"text":"有沒有可能可以把他實際的注冊率提供給其實有很多的學生或學生的家長他們也想要做一個參考我進去之後我可能到了大二我要被迫要轉學了我要輟學了我剛才講那個平台大專校院校務資訊平台那個網站任何人都可以上去每年12月會公佈這個學校他的注冊報到人數是扣除寄存名額的部分嗎還是不是"},{"start":9260.469,"end":9260.609,"text":"我們會從財務﹚是"},{"start":9287.107,"end":9295.371,"text":"還有他的這個教學品質實際上都會去看所以決定他會被預警好了解謝謝謝謝次長謝謝主席好感謝謝謝好我們接下來請洪孟凱委員主席謝謝麻煩請葉次長好請次長謝謝"},{"start":9316.553,"end":9345.266,"text":"委員好市長,針對您的出現現在也就快一個月的時間一開始的時候有些人認為是亮點因為您推出這個翻轉教育理念但是也看到媒體有一些教團的聲音擔憂會不會成為是網紅流量的思維來辦教育那現在快一個月的時間您怎麼樣來翻轉這些教育團體對你的質疑的聲浪"},{"start":9347.183,"end":9374.915,"text":"其實我想這裡面齁因為剛上任的時候其實很多這些事情我覺得大家都有些誤解比如說大家一直談說欸好像我常常在談翻轉教學我們要再翻轉或是幹什麼其實有跟委員報告其實我已經有7年沒有談翻轉了所以其實跟委員報告我一直一個理念就是報告之前在參加大學校長臨學的時候我也提到說王安石氏的改革是不會成功的很多事情就是真的要真的不是"},{"start":9375.515,"end":9380.76,"text":"所以在這個月裡面有沒有也試著跟這些教育團體來做溝通讓大家知道說你的這個在教育路上的一些理念堅持或是想法"},{"start":9401.758,"end":9423.128,"text":"有,包括像我們之前在提這個新武專3加2這個概念的時候那像全教長就來跟我這邊來討論了解這個狀況那我想這個透過這樣的溝通他們本來的一些擔心或疑慮其實就消除了蠻多的我想這也是我們未來要努力持續要做的事情跟更多的團體包括是之前我也去這個國教盟跟這個"},{"start":9424.148,"end":9437.117,"text":"事性教育協會他們這個協辦的這些論壇我想這個跟教團跟家長團體做更多的對話跟這個交流這是我覺得很重要也是我很樂意我覺得應該要做的"},{"start":9454.888,"end":9475.296,"text":"所以我想請教一下現在也看到大家開始在炒作這所謂的AI浪潮會認為是說AI熱潮非常的這個熱門但是即便有看到次長你在臉書上有發表看法說面對AI不要焦慮但是現在學術界好像也有一個狀況是眾理工親人文"},{"start":9476.036,"end":9504.363,"text":"有看到很多的這個大學部開始也在增設這個半導體的教育甚至大學政府企業也將半導體的教育向下延伸國教署也會補助高中職實施半導體的課程由高中負責研發課程現在有10所學校開始試辦那會不會再讓國內可能這幾年內的這樣的一個教育的一個現況變成是說都是以理工或是以半導體或甚至AI這樣子來為主"},{"start":9505.283,"end":9526.476,"text":"跟委員報告好就是我們認為人文是非常非常重要因為像最近我在過去這兩年家長請我去演講在談AI之後的人才的圖像我常一直在談一件事情我說AI很會解決問題但是什麼問題值得解什麼問題對人很重要解了以後會創造出很多的價值這只有人才知道所以對人文的這方面"},{"start":9527.116,"end":9527.216,"text":"主席"},{"start":9545.245,"end":9548.648,"text":"所以這也是為什麼我們在大學在專報裡面我們有提到說我們有開始鼓勵已經很多大學像這個臺大、清大、成大有這種彈性的學制讓學生比如像臺大是讓學生可以選不同的領域專長比如說他可以有四個領域專長"},{"start":9560.839,"end":9588.94,"text":"然後每個領域專長大概就十幾到二十學分然後他可以懂一點資訊他可以有資訊的領域專長那他也可以選一個心理的領域專長跟經濟的領域專長跟社會的領域專長他這樣子四個領域專長他就可以拿校學試畢業那這樣子的話其實就讓學生覺得他有更多的彈性可以組合出他自己也跟委員報告剛才我前面有分享到就是說像之前我在台大的時候台大最多學生修的輔系是社會系"},{"start":9589.74,"end":9599.405,"text":"所以我們看到說其實這樣的概念在大學裡面確實說不是說我們認為不是只有念人文科系的學生需要人文而是我們認為"},{"start":9600.714,"end":9606.098,"text":"所以在我們現在的一個主導方向不管是次長不管是現在部長的一個領域上我們還是會承諾不會因為現在的AI熱潮或是半導體熱潮而眾理公親人文"},{"start":9623.992,"end":9625.354,"text":"還是會併眾?"},{"start":9625.354,"end":9640.969,"text":"是不是?好 那我們也拉回來 這就牽扯到兩個問題其實這也是本席這邊特別要來提出來一一是現在看起來高等教育就是有一些大專院校他其實因為過去普赦大學的狀況也因此造成說這個倒閉潮"},{"start":9644.232,"end":9655.798,"text":"現在預估今年7月底會有15間大專院校走入歷史其中有13所還是專科申辦或是改制甚至有人評估說117學年會有40所大專院校倒閉"},{"start":9657.647,"end":9673.858,"text":"我們現在到底有沒有,已經上任快一個月的時間有沒有去針對我們國內的大專院校到底去評估說我們到底有多少的這個數額是需要的我們整個大專院校的高等教育我們需要的這樣的一個學校"},{"start":9675.061,"end":9690.456,"text":"跟委員報告,剛剛那個數據,就是說其實那個可能是有媒體誤指就是說這個可能會退場的那40家不是都是高等教育的,或是技職對,但不管怎麼樣,就是說現在我們看到說"},{"start":9691.497,"end":9708.417,"text":"高教已經30年的一個時間那現在我們看到說一百多所的一個高等教育他有可能陸續會有這個退場機制是那我們現在只想是說新的政府新的教育部不管是部長不管是次長針對這部分也有叫高教改革團體認為是說應該要開啟高等教育國師論壇啊"},{"start":9712.541,"end":9733.164,"text":"我們到底有沒有去評估過說我們台灣以2350萬人未來少子化的一個趨勢的情況到底未來這五年內我們需要的是多少所大專院校跟委員報告因為其實我們現在因應到現在產業產業現在遇到的挑戰是台灣因為少子化我們現在新生的只有過去的三分之一所以我們現在台灣是非常非常缺人的"},{"start":9733.624,"end":9757.879,"text":"所以台灣的從以前的高等教育我們是要訓練自己的學生自己做人才這個角色之外我們現在賦予另外很重要的一個角色是我們要去吸收海外的這個學生來台灣把他訓練成人才而且還能夠讓他願意留在台灣工作去補足我們現在產業的這個到2030年估計有大概三四十萬的缺口所以以這個角度來講的話"},{"start":9758.459,"end":9764.394,"text":"所以趙次長的講法是現在我們的高等教育可能還不用倒閉學校關閉可能還要再增校"},{"start":9765.094,"end":9765.714,"text":"市長有那麼樂觀嗎?"},{"start":9797.089,"end":9817.88,"text":"市長應該這麼講啦 我想請教就是說到底現在已經上任快一個月的時間有沒有考慮過說應該要呼籲來針對高等教育要召開國師論壇或說建議總統來召開國師論壇我想這部長其實部長的這個因為我們目前您自己的想法是什麼"},{"start":9820.103,"end":9846.745,"text":"因為我們其實在這個我們其實現在已經有很多的機制是可以廣納大家對這個高教的意見所以您認為不需要?所以我們就有這些大學校長會議還有很多這些機制所以如果這些機制還不夠的話那當然我們就會再研議這個有沒有要來做這樣的事情但目前我們其實還是以就我們目前這些機制是嗎?因為這些機制過去就已經二三十年了"},{"start":9847.105,"end":9872.888,"text":"所以本席為什麼會提出這個問題或說為什麼一直有人倡議就是認為是說現在是一個里程碑未來我們當然也希望是說台灣的辦學能夠讓海內外也覺得說享譽國際願意有其他的學子進來但是畢竟沒有那麼以過去看到的數字來講是沒有那麼樂觀的嘛因此本席才會點出來這個問題不管你剛剛講是說是媒體的物質或說大家的一個估算的一個基準不同"},{"start":9873.168,"end":9890.356,"text":"但是117年恐會有40所大專院校倒閉這也是曾經報導過嘛那另外另外一部分是學習歷程檔案你之前有提過就學習歷程檔案大家也認為是說是不是應該有再調整的空間跟必要性但我記得你那時候認為是學習歷程檔案反而是可以"},{"start":9892.052,"end":9907.454,"text":"讓大家相對更公平那可是也有人講到是說為什麼會學習歷程檔案裡面常常就看到我們已經不止一次點出來了每年都點出來一樣的狀況就是學習歷程檔案是有人來做販售的針對這個部分今年來不及了"},{"start":9907.734,"end":9934.993,"text":"明年怎麼樣來預防或說明年真的能夠讓大家知道說學習歷程檔案不是用錢買臨時爆火腳就可以了這樣怎麼改善?報告委員我覺得這個是一些相關的配套是我們可以再來努力的比如說怎麼樣讓更多的同學在高一剛入學的時候他能夠對學習歷程能夠這件事情到底是怎麼一回事那大家怎麼做這個東西我們雖然過去我們有做一些這些教材像這個做火學有一些有手冊給每個同學"},{"start":9936.454,"end":9952.382,"text":"但是這個可能只有書面不見得夠有沒有信心因為現在您剛上任嘛那今年九月高二升高三的同學這一屆的同學能夠在我們教育部的說明思考討論之下"},{"start":9953.723,"end":9969.73,"text":"能夠讓他們在明年要申請學校的時候拿出學習歷程檔案的時候有信心能夠讓同學不要再去坊間購買也不要讓坊間意圖想要購買的這些販賣的這些商機可以消除而是回歸到我們一開始推出來的教育的常態"},{"start":9970.613,"end":9973.974,"text":"市長,我現在就是以您可能也是家長我不知道說您的這個"},{"start":9989.199,"end":10006.575,"text":"小朋友年紀多大啦抱歉我沒有探尋您個人隱私但一樣嘛如果說有家長會有這樣的焦慮有同學會有這樣的焦慮有些時候是學生他一看到別人學生都去買或是都有這樣的事情回去拜託家長那我不要輸在起跑點上那有些是家長求好心切"},{"start":10007.436,"end":10033.47,"text":"有一些更是說可能是一個班級的一個風氣那這就有賴我們教育部去說明啊而不是教育部設計了一個規則之後然後告訴說這個就是家長的問題這個就是學生的問題所以過去沒有解決的狀況因為我們每年差不多4月5月來質詢的時候都會講到而且每年4月5月的時候都會看到坊間就有這樣的一個販售那一樣嘛現在您已經上任了"},{"start":10034.477,"end":10057.514,"text":"新的政府新的教育部部長次長我們怎麼樣真的能夠根本來解決這問題在明年的4月5月的時候不要再讓我們委員不要再讓國會再討論這樣的一個議題跟委員報告我們現在要做的事情我們現在已經在規劃就是說在會期結束之後因為我們之前有所謂的國教宣講四五年前但是我覺得我們忽略一件事情是每年都有新生的家長都有新的"},{"start":10057.534,"end":10058.094,"text":"其實我覺得這是好事"},{"start":10075.602,"end":10103.362,"text":"這就是本席一開始提出來的初衷我認為既然部長、次長已經有這樣的想法我們一起努力希望讓大家都能夠把學習歷程回歸到常態大家用三年的時間去累積多彩多姿豐富的人生經驗而不是高三的時候才來臨時報佛腳也不是說做得漂漂亮亮印彩色列印就是好的學習歷程不是上網填寫就是好的學習歷程所以"},{"start":10105.146,"end":10124.496,"text":"規劃全縣市的宣講並且說明這個計劃什麼時候可以出來我們就是好 我們回去再去擬我們大概就預計7月中會期結束之後好 那也再請提供本席及我們教育文化委員會委員一份好嗎謝謝好 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝我們接下來請陳培宇委員"},{"start":10138.427,"end":10139.852,"text":"好次長喝完水了有請次長謝謝次長"},{"start":10142.335,"end":10167.091,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝次長次長我很開心你剛回應了紅夢凱委員說你自己還有張亮萬堅次長都即將跳下去選台尋獎我們非常期待看到這個報告我的小孩今年高中畢業三年前我認真參加了學校辦的每一場講座確實就扭轉了我對學習歷程的焦慮跟恐懼後來孩子們的表現在學校的幫忙之下確實就沒有走上那一條軍備競賽所以選獎應該真的很重要就拜託教育部了 謝謝"},{"start":10171.374,"end":10187.553,"text":"好那次長這是我的Q板這是我的小孩用AI幫我做的我的小孩跟你一樣是要走上離公的道路而我就是現在所有人最焦慮的即將會被取代中文系畢業的研究所念的是教育所"},{"start":10188.464,"end":10205.489,"text":"我應該我們兩個現在的畫面就是所有人最擔心的就是會不會未來我的工作就被次長您這樣優秀科系的人才所取代就是現在這個最真實的畫面我可能是那個最弱勢的相關學系畢業的次長你怎麼看目前大家在焦慮的這個議題"},{"start":10207.729,"end":10234.911,"text":"跟委員報告好了因為這兩年我一直被找去跟大家談這個演講說AI時代怎麼樣才能夠不被取代那我其實一直跟大家談一些比如舉個例子我常常跟大家講說我認為做一個很不會被取代的工作叫什麼叫Sales因為Sales它很重要是要建立人跟人之間的信任那它對人要了解那事實上像我過去我們在創業我很多的Sales都是人文領域的人那這只是個例子我不是說大家都要做Sales"},{"start":10235.791,"end":10262.249,"text":"其實我剛差點以為市長請我可以所以我的意思是說在AI的時代因為你如果只有技術很多時候AI解決問題的能力很強但是什麼問題值得解決是只有人才知道人的需求所以對人的了解其實反而我們現在新創我們在業界看到的是對人的需求夠了解的人比如說很多像產品設計師很多這些人這些人其實是我們認為是業界現在非常非常需要的"},{"start":10262.929,"end":10263.99,"text":"對人文的了解是怎樣的?"},{"start":10282.322,"end":10283.303,"text":"紅色的比較粗的這一條線呢是"},{"start":10299.961,"end":10319.316,"text":"所有大專院校學生的年增率那因為少子化的關係當然這個數字是往下降我相信次長非常了解可是如果我們單獨看人文社會科系的年增率趨勢它下降的幅度在近年遠遠超過大專院院校所有學生的整體年增率如果再把1213加進去我覺得應該會更可怕另外一個問題我們來看科技類科他們的負增長的程度卻相對的和緩就是我剛剛說的"},{"start":10327.122,"end":10350.555,"text":"所有的學生都會往這裡去升學往這裡去想像自己未來的職業因為非常現實就是看起來這個產業它的資源不管是政府的資源來自民間的投資或者是相關的科系資源都會比較多那我剛剛說過往教育部有提出高中生人文及社會科學基礎人才培育計畫甚至也有去開相關的經典班那次長你在剛剛很多回答我就不再多問"},{"start":10351.155,"end":10372,"text":"但是如何確保這件事情真的有被執行而且真的有照顧到學生的需求甚至是像我就算我現在開始認真學習AI我都把它視為是我個人的終身學習可是如果讓我再回到大學我可能還是想要走人文社會學這個學門這真的是我的天賦也是我的興趣那教育部如何支持像我們這樣的人"},{"start":10373.3,"end":10399.561,"text":"所以我想跟委員報告就是這是為什麼我們在大學我們接下來我們已經有大學在做那我們用這些成功的案例像臺大、清大、成大這些彈性學制就比如說我們剛剛提到臺大這個校學式的制度或者探索學習它基本上可以讓學生這樣就是說如果我今天我對資訊有興趣我可以選一個資訊領域專長大概是十幾個學分然後我也可以選一個心理的領域專長"},{"start":10400.902,"end":10428.751,"text":"這個制度你們目前有跟大學端討論過了嗎或者是你們有問過高中生相關這樣的設計嗎因為可能高中生他們馬上會遇到的問題就是我升上了大學之後我還不知道你們大人打算這樣調整的目前我的家小孩就是高三他可能都不知道他上了大學所以我相信任何的政策出發點絕對是良善的但是相關的配套跟執行還有跟現場的對話這邊我相信所有教育化委員會的委員都會想要跟教育部一起努力那後續是不是更多的資料還有我剛剛說必須要跟現場機器的溝通好嗎"},{"start":10430.751,"end":10457.424,"text":"但是我時間有限我們就先講到這邊另外關於來台留學生的事情大家很多大學會認為可能是少子化的解方之一目前確實吸引國際學生是全世界各國的趨勢不是只有台灣想要做這些事情我們辦公室整理完之後確實發現來台留學生逐漸回到疫情前的人數可是我們發現比較多資料是來自於東南亞的留學生關於中國留學生的部分賴清德總統在就職的時候他有提到"},{"start":10458.184,"end":10482.877,"text":"他希望促進在對等尊嚴的情況下促進中國留學生有學位來台的可能性教育部在5月24日的相關新聞稿也說你們希望可以在明年的5月底公開相關辦法那也許我今天還問不到進度但是我相信這件事情請教育部務必保持在對等尊嚴的情況下去促成這件事情目前你們的規劃是什麼大方向就好了"},{"start":10483.377,"end":10483.517,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":10505.29,"end":10521.977,"text":"次長在2017年的時候當年的台灣發動體育改革您絕對是一個很重要很重要的助力對 次長你自己都笑了齁對 次長你現在進到教育部之後我不知道你有沒有開始知道相關體育改革的阻力跟過往的舊傳統文化他們所面臨的困境"},{"start":10522.897,"end":10533.039,"text":"剛剛我在來之前呢我們剛剛人本教育基金會開了一個記者會記者會的內容我之後會跟次長分享但是我在現場聽到一個非常悲痛的故事我跟雅玲委員都在現場我們兩個身為媽媽我們聽到一個孩子告訴我們說有一個不當收費的教練超時訓練的教練不當體罰勒索孩子勒索家長的教練他為了對付這些不聽話的小孩他甚至把小孩丟在比賽完荒涼的河濱的球場"},{"start":10550.402,"end":10552.346,"text":"不讓他上車不接他回學校"},{"start":10553.587,"end":10581.128,"text":"甚至在出發的時候擺明就把他擺在學校門口看著所有他的同學坐上校隊的車出發去比賽來來回回教訓他不只一次而這個現象他們找了監察院也找了體育署但是過往這些施力沒有辦法幫助到這些小孩但是我們告訴體育署這絕對不會是個案我們辦公室從過去一年半以來接到非常非常非常多的個案我們發現他有整體通案的問題次長你自己怎麼看體育改革這件事情"},{"start":10581.748,"end":10604.16,"text":"跟委員報告這個我上任之前我想講過的話都沒有辦法迴避啦真的而且網路會幫我們記下來我其實上任之前其實在有一件事情我在提的就是說這個競賽轉學競賽這件事是是因為我那時候在體育所公聽會議裡面我就在裡面發言就是說這個教練跟球員跟學生是其實有個權力不對等的關係非常不對等那你今天如果還有這個類似這個這個轉學競賽這種很多的規定其實是"},{"start":10609.463,"end":10609.663,"text":"所以上任後呢?"},{"start":10624.773,"end":10625.433,"text":"李宜君,您認識嗎?"},{"start":10646.765,"end":10653.728,"text":"八年過去了林一軍他去年呢透過世錦賽冠軍的身份他今年再次取得奧運門票前兩天我們在愛爾達電視上看到對這位選手的專訪他很難過的說從19歲到43歲他的期待就只是希望他們可以讓一軍的教練隨隊參加奧運"},{"start":10667.133,"end":10675.995,"text":"而這個他們指的就是國訓中心跟單項協會發生什麼事情了呢?為什麼他的教練不能跟他一起去參加奧運比賽呢?我們來看一下"},{"start":10679.25,"end":10699.178,"text":"這個在相關他們的規定當中他的協會他們的選訓的教練是按照選訓委員會評估具奪牌實力選手教練為優先那次長我們來談一談奪牌實力我們來看一下他的排名那可是如果同樣另外一個協會他們的說法就比較客觀他說按照選手的排名順序來作為領選的依據下一張"},{"start":10702.845,"end":10724.309,"text":"這個是今年他們只要發三張關於這個選奧運涉及總會奧運積分排名跟本屆教練領選結果123排序就是ABCD這上面三個教練可以跟著選手去可是我剛剛跟您報告的林怡君他的奧運積分最高排名是11可是他的教練卻不能跟他一起去而且屢次發生我剛剛已經舉例了"},{"start":10727.33,"end":10752.111,"text":"在單項協會當中對於領選教練哪些可以跟著一起選手到了現場每一個協會做法如此不同身為單項協會的主管機關體育署跟教育部次長你怎麼看這個問題這是當年您在非常用力的倡議體育改革您所願意看到的現象嗎我想這個委員這次我可以請體育署就這個事情做一個補充好可以謝謝因為即將奧運出發在即"},{"start":10754.167,"end":10771.188,"text":"是跟委員報告事實上每個單項的一個特性不同那在涉及的部分今年有取得7位是7位那你已經屬於非法非法的部分我們有4位選手那所以有手槍有手槍的有非法的還有25米的選手所以會依照不同的"},{"start":10771.448,"end":10785.156,"text":"可是我剛剛這個說法你可以接受嗎?所以你現在是要公開說他們這個按照選訓委員會自行評估具奪牌實力可是你在看到這一張林益君他的奪牌實力是11那其他可以被派去的教練他們的奪牌實力排分在那邊欸"},{"start":10787.472,"end":10802.524,"text":"還是我們會後再討論?可以因為如果體育署要繼續這樣用不客觀的標準放任單項協會他們可以自行決定這些事情我覺得剛剛他已經說了他從19歲到43歲他的舌王如此的卑微"},{"start":10803.144,"end":10808.147,"text":"但是這個標準是你們體育署每一個單項協會都可以掌控得到的嗎?你們真的對每一個選手都是公平的嗎?屢次相關的事件每次在奧運後都會發生類似的事情我只是要問身為執政黨委員我們當然要願意捍衛行政院所有政策"},{"start":10822.054,"end":10844.52,"text":"但是執政黨委員也想要在這些所有進一步的改革公開透明的路程上陪伴所有我們在政策服務的每一個人從我們關注的學生青少年到相關的選手到各式各樣的企業上社會上每一個人所以在體育這件事情上我真的覺得我自己都覺得很大的困境是我們不知道到底要怎麼樣跟你們溝通你們才願意公開透明民主的方法去對待選手跟跟協會溝通"},{"start":10846.058,"end":10866.288,"text":"因為教練的臨險都會公告出來 這個沒有問題的啦我們會再次跟體育署討論如果我們沒有辦法在今天有共識的話為什麼我要問次長 次長 麻煩你所有的願望都非常的卑微所有的選手他們不應該只是國家奪牌的工具所有的體育改革都必須要從基層"},{"start":10867.068,"end":10868.71,"text":"最後我的訴求謝謝主席謝謝不好意思最後一張"},{"start":10882.262,"end":10900.575,"text":"我要積極地要求重新檢視奧運教練領選資格﹑客觀設定還有公平性不要再讓協會私設行堂讓選手只能孤單面對還有盤點參賽證件 調度的可能性避免相關的現象我相信體育署非常的清楚再來我真心想要拜託葉刺身為我們從"},{"start":10901.576,"end":10902.136,"text":"接下來我們請張雅玲委員"},{"start":10934.275,"end":10936.616,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請葉次長今天的話我們就是針對高教的部分來跟次長做一個討論那其實我想這個在我們的報告裡面都有講111年的時候我們的大一新生會來到最低點是來到15.7整整跟現在比差不多將近4萬"},{"start":10958.626,"end":10973.319,"text":"但是我看了一下111學年合格的公私立大學合格的招生名額大概是目前還沒有去反應未來可能即將面對這個變化我想要了解的地方就在於說"},{"start":10974.86,"end":10991.049,"text":"當我們人數越來越少了可是我們現在列入專輔的學校目前只有這四所那我想要知道說我們現在要如何去因應這麼少了這麼多將近五萬人呢我們的準備到底是什麼"},{"start":10992.51,"end":11008.464,"text":"我們現在其實我們在鼓勵這些大學因為前面有提到就是說台灣目前接下來會遇到我們產業其實有一個很大的人力缺口在2030年的時候所以這些私立大學其實它有另外一個也還有一個很重要的任務就是說怎麼樣幫助台灣去"},{"start":11009.665,"end":11013.429,"text":"我們是目前在現在的學校裡面我們是維持不變的狀況之下去做積極的國外攬柴來解決這個問題嗎這個是可以補足到4萬"},{"start":11024.801,"end":11044.143,"text":"我們的目標是這樣子嗎?我們的理解是這樣子嗎?我們現在的目標是到2030年之前我們累計要收30萬個學生所以其實這本來就是一個台灣的缺口很大所以這就變成是的確我們就是要私立學校還有公立學校如果有要走這條路一起"},{"start":11045.305,"end":11059.462,"text":"我想因為為什麼大家要出國來念書 一定通常有可能是想要念一些一技之長﹖或者是要念一個比較好的學位﹖進入一個比較好的大學﹖ 那我就很好奇到底我們現在怎麼樣提出我們的競爭力"},{"start":11060.643,"end":11076.145,"text":"因為我覺得現在還有一個大問題就是說我們私校我們現在過去是有一些私校退場的機制那這個是像是可能因為財務啦教學品質不好我們就開始列入專輔學校再問題沒有解決我們就開始下令停招那我們現在是沒有以"},{"start":11082.221,"end":11098.949,"text":"但是呢今天回應到剛剛前面那個問題這些招生不良的學校一定它裡面有一些狀況那到底我們的教育部有沒有掌握因為如果你說要招國外的學生好了因為這些學生他會來這些學校唸書嗎"},{"start":11100.84,"end":11118.538,"text":"這到底我們是不是要怎麼樣來協助這些學校產出這些競爭力跟吸引力嘛 對不對對我這個其實整個政策的配套好像我們在目前這個新南向產業專班我們在越南印尼跟菲律賓我們都有設定招生基地跟據點在當地幫他們教他們訓練他們華語能力要到這個A2的等級才會來台灣"},{"start":11122.742,"end":11149.516,"text":"我了解,但是我想這個,因為我們之前其實有諮詢過這個題目啦但是這個人數其實進展非常的緩慢啦那我想,這部分我想主要是訴求啦就是說我們針對這些註冊率會達六成的學校我們有沒有一些積極的輔導機制啦應該這樣講,因為你不把他列入專府嘛你是要留下來嘛,你要去照顧國外的學生嘛那我們有沒有一些積極的輔導介入措施來協助這些學校,不然你剛剛講的那些都不會實現啊"},{"start":11150.437,"end":11152.225,"text":"我們有沒有這些想像過的規劃來協助這些學校?"},{"start":11154.815,"end":11180.216,"text":"是報告委員就是當他的這個財務如果有出現惡化的狀況或是失智或是教學品質有出問題的出狀況的時候會我們就開始從預警的不對我現在講的是這些註冊率未達六成的因為你現在未達六成你就有可能因為你錢收得太少嘛註冊費太少啊那你怎麼去營運那相關的問題就會產生嘛那我們針對這些未達六成的學校我們有沒有一些積極的介入型的措施目前有規劃嗎"},{"start":11183.341,"end":11199.909,"text":"這就是因為他招生未達六成也代表他現在科系跟整個產業或社會的需求是不是match的所以他就去做調整所以這也是為什麼部長會提到說我們鼓勵他們就是不要再被那個院這個系所的數量限制他可以朝單科的專業"},{"start":11200.629,"end":11206.091,"text":"台灣系停招,全台灣第一個台灣系停招我在之前的質詢裡面就有講到我們是不是應該要來協助這個台灣系因為現在台語要復正嘛國家語言發展計畫我們其實是需要一些相關的台灣的人老師跟師資跟一些專業的人員"},{"start":11224.179,"end":11234.767,"text":"但是上次給我的回覆就只有說我們現在會來協助確認他這個停招的程序是否符合正常流程還是沒有回答我會不會來協助他們這可以回答我一下嗎我們會來瞭解這個狀況來看怎麼樣來積極協助他們"},{"start":11241.432,"end":11255.606,"text":"接下來就是說我們在這個3加2的新五端模式今天次長其實也有講說這是一個初步的構想希望可以來去搶救我們來提供一些吸引力來解決我們這些少子化就職的人數"},{"start":11259.97,"end":11286.089,"text":"但是我們從這個右邊的表其實也有看到就是說學生人數其實坦白說記職生的人數就是比較少然後呢我們學測報考的人數呢也已經超越了統測報考的人數了我現在其實有一個很好奇的地方我們這個3加2新武專模式要如何吸引技術性的高中生這吸引力到底在哪裡啊因為坦白說他現在學生學校這麼多啊他也可以去念一般學校就好為什麼他要念這個3加2"},{"start":11287.713,"end":11308.471,"text":"這個跟委員報告因為這個一般我們看到就是說像五專的學生畢業的他的薪資是比大學畢業生高的也就是看到這市場上對五專就是這五年畢業去就業這個是有市場在有需求在那另外就是說其實我們現在要做的事情就是說你今天都只是高職去招生跟高中在競爭的時候他比較辛苦"},{"start":11308.831,"end":11326.886,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":11327.126,"end":11344.525,"text":"國中畢業他可以好好五年不用去遭受到升學的壓力好好的學技術這也可以解決我們現在的高職有很多的學生到高二高三就為了要升學為了要統策準備考試準備統策其實專業技術也沒學好所以他其實有幾個目的是要讓孩子有五年的時間"},{"start":11345.546,"end":11366.058,"text":"好好的安心的學技術好 我了解了那我想這部分因為其實剛剛次長也有講到這個還沒有詳細的規劃那我想這個我們還是要詳細的去了解因為聽起來是有掌握一些現場的需要那但是我也認為如果說現場有這個需要我們當然是可以積極的來做但是我們還是要去了解實務面我們要如何去執行所以如果日後有詳細的規劃再提供到我們辦公室那剛剛其實剛剛"},{"start":11367.699,"end":11394.428,"text":"次長也有講就是說需要學習計職的專業能力那從2018年教育部的點亮計職之光其實也有講這跟經濟的建設密不可分非常的需要那全世界都在講AI我們也說我們要做一個AI指導那現在全台灣都在流行那但是中研院的孔祥仲院士也提了一個意見就是說計職教育是台灣教育的基石其實回應剛剛次長講這件事情我們需要很多動手的人來整理這些相關的資料"},{"start":11396.143,"end":11410.084,"text":"來培養我們需要培養一萬名懂AI的技職生那我現在想要請教次長就是說你認同恐怖院是我相信應該是挺認同他的主張但是我們要如何在現在的技職體系培養AI人才我們有足夠的師資跟資源嗎"},{"start":11411.871,"end":11432.639,"text":"我想我認同這個一萬名懂AI但現在我覺得我們現在台灣社會有很多事情是混在一起比如我們在講說我們缺AI人才那AI人才到底是什麼AI人才我覺得我們應該要初分一個是發展研發AI技術的人跟會用AI在他的領域的人這兩個要區分開來那我想"},{"start":11433.339,"end":11436.341,"text":"對,但是我們現在的資資跟資源有準備好可以去訓練像這樣子的技職生讓他懂AI嗎?"},{"start":11449.369,"end":11478.291,"text":"這件事情其實也不見得只是從技職層出發我想我們分成兩個部分好了因為剛剛次長也有講一個是研發那是另外一端可能在大學端處理的部分一個是實務上操作面的部分那我們現在在處理的就是操作面的部分我要回應委員的是說我認為懂AI的人其實也還不止一萬人因為我覺得未來我們的孩子們很多都對這事情要有所了解所以這個未來就是為什麼我們怎麼樣再從中小學教育從中小學小學的時候他就要開始要"},{"start":11478.911,"end":11479.312,"text":"但我想因為"},{"start":11494.608,"end":11494.628,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":11521.725,"end":11522.746,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請教育部的葉次長"},{"start":11551.738,"end":11576.338,"text":"一早我很少來教育委員會今天早上碰到我們的召委他特別講說今天討論高教我一看啦這高教我就想幾個問題想請教簡短問題第一個在大學裡面的助理教授到副教授副教授到教授過去有所謂的六年條款"},{"start":11578.794,"end":11605.105,"text":"就說我今天是主理教授我6年沒辦法升到副教授我滾蛋這個副教授6年沒辦法升到教授我滾蛋過去有這樣條款後來學校慢慢的有把它取消掉我就請教次長這個6年條款能不能有教育部統一規定各個學校把這個取消了因為你這個在大學教書"},{"start":11606.005,"end":11622.593,"text":"不見得只有做研究嘛還需要教學啊什麼之類的而且生不了教授生不了副教授這個對個人來講都是一個壓力他一定想生只是很多環境他生不了而已這個有沒有可能教育部統一把它取消掉有沒有可能"},{"start":11623.454,"end":11648.695,"text":"跟委員報告因為在大學法第19條就是大學他可以依據他自己的教學研究的需要他可以他有這樣子的權利所以我覺得我們教育部沒有辦法我們沒有辦法去違反這個法律去跟他說你這幾年可以續聘幾年不能續聘我沒有辦法去做這個我們現在沒有辦法去做這個事情所以沒辦法做到說取消這個可是很多學校講啊事實上這個"},{"start":11650.689,"end":11652.55,"text":"第二題 這個也是我提一些學校的教授來發問"},{"start":11679.833,"end":11682.694,"text":"這是學校之間他們自己"},{"start":11707.154,"end":11720.095,"text":"這是學校跟老師批准資源的他們自己批准的關係你覺得合不合理嗎這個很多私校他都升等過程你是follow教育部的啊follow教育部的結果公立大學不承認這個東西"},{"start":11721.499,"end":11744.147,"text":"我跟委員報告,因為很多學校併校其實有很多的考量比如說有學校擔心說他併校之後他會不會影響到他的排名啊學術排名像這個其實我覺得就變成是這兩個答案啦次長我這兩個答案test你啊原來對你有高度期待你是網紅教授有人講說是孔雀形的有人說你是翻轉教育結果你都沒有翻轉你都不敢翻轉了"},{"start":11746.088,"end":11766.641,"text":"規定在那裏就規定在那裏的6年這學校來講你都不敢去動它第二個這個私校的教授轉到亞工力大學的教授你也都不敢動所以我覺得你沒有任何翻轉啊你沒有任何的創新在這裏要看起來要讓大家覺得說噢葉丙成亮天喔現在不知道亮在那裏"},{"start":11768.022,"end":11777.045,"text":"報告委員,我已經7年沒有談翻轉了,然後我覺得我們的...人家還叫你孔雀形,孔雀什麼叫孔雀形的網紅教授,孔雀形就是燒包型燒包型的這個花枝招傳的教授,沒看到啊,鬼鬼祈祈在這裡"},{"start":11790.314,"end":11818.84,"text":"對,我還蠻規矩的。 是啊。沒有,報告委員,這個依法行政這是我必須要做的事情啦。在法律跟允許的空間我們做什麼。但是在你的,你要有這麼大的權力在手上,你總是,我剛剛提出來都是私下的一些教授的心聲。是。你又給他一條路。來啦,再來第三個問題,簡單的問題啊。你今天提到說我們的少子化嘛,今天題目是這個嘛。"},{"start":11819.727,"end":11846.095,"text":"我們大學數量是不是太多?是不是太多?這個很具體喔!是不是太多?如果因爲台灣未來人力需求的話目前我們有非常大的壓力必須要從國外攬財回來所以如果是在從國外攬財讓台灣的解決台灣2030年的這個三四十萬人力缺口的話我覺得我們大學這些很多人體制好的大學還是有它存在的價值跟必要"},{"start":11847.035,"end":11868.516,"text":"是不是太多嗎?你要回答我的問題嗎?我們講說營養太多over banking這個University太多over University他收得到學生就有他的價值他今天如果不願意改變然後他收不到學生那當然他的存在就會是當然大學數量太多嘛全世界台灣已經是全世界大學數量第二名的"},{"start":11869.517,"end":11888.863,"text":"我們的2300萬人口我們600多萬有大學學歷幾乎百分之百都可以入讀大學你看這個在座各位以前我們考大學多難現在考大學多容易啊當然是大學數量太多嘛所以我就問你你覺得最適當的大學數量個多少"},{"start":11890.374,"end":11916.77,"text":"這個我沒辦法回答因為這是要配合台灣整個未來人力的需求阿你講幾包我們對你期待很高網紅教授給我們不紅一定不紅來來來等一下主席你讓其他人問就我稍微要我很少來我跟你講喔這個這個現在來講我們看到大學數量太多大學生學歷貶值你同意我們的大學貶值嗎大學學歷貶值嗎"},{"start":11919.768,"end":11936.813,"text":"因為現在越來越多企業是在看學生有什麼樣的能力可以符合企業的需求所以確實學歷的重要性相對來講叫以前的年代是下降的是沒錯所以是貧殖了嘛就這個道理嘛所以不是只有靠文憑還要靠其他skill"},{"start":11938.454,"end":11956.849,"text":"對 其他東西要加進來嘛 才能夠提高 所以不是只有學歷而已 這個很重要最後一點就是今天少子化的東西 我剛才沒有聽很清楚你怎麼樣打開在現在的時空裡面 讓陸神能夠願意過來台灣現在兩岸的關係這麼不好 你有什麼辦法你告訴我"},{"start":11962.993,"end":11973.966,"text":"我們基本上已經跟對岸相關的窗口都有表達我們的善意你跟對岸什麼窗口接觸?這個我請國際事務部長我時間到了,趕快講趕快講我們現在的對口單位是對方的交生服務中心由我們台灣的陸聯會來做對等的窗口"},{"start":11983.686,"end":11985.268,"text":"接下來我們請林思敏委員"},{"start":12013.018,"end":12016.561,"text":"好,謝謝主席。請葉次長。好,次長。次長,你是台大的教授嘛。是。請問你知道台大在竹北有一個校區嗎?知道。知道嘛。"},{"start":12029.026,"end":12050.654,"text":"我想台大取得這塊校地是在民國89年已經24年囉24年目前的狀況你又去竹北你知道嗎你了解嗎我們在台大我大概都知道目前的狀況就是除了一個必增館以外其他22公頃的校地荒蕪一片"},{"start":12051.977,"end":12079.509,"text":"所以這塊土地如果你經過竹北你就會看到這是最精華的一個地段現在價值真的是快一千億了應該可以這樣講七八百億所以台大取得竹北校區這個有一個都市傳說有人講說是一塊錢取得的有人說是無償撥用的"},{"start":12080.762,"end":12084.296,"text":"那次長您了解到底台大如何取得這塊校地嗎?"},{"start":12089.346,"end":12110.412,"text":"我自己之前在學校裡面的經驗是學校這十幾年來一直在呼籲大家去...這部分我跟前張副校長聊過了我自己也了解非常透徹其實都市外界的傳言太多我想這不利於學校的發展"},{"start":12111.972,"end":12124.11,"text":"所以教育部是不是可以就臺大取得校地的過程可以公諸於世讓我們新竹地區的所有的傳言就把它攻破嘛可不可以"},{"start":12131.526,"end":12139.511,"text":"請您在一個月之內把臺大如何取得新竹校地的整個過程提交給教育委員會及本席"},{"start":12145.675,"end":12168.547,"text":"接下來跟次長來討論國內高教的現況以英國QS機構最新的世界大學排名台灣大學是台灣表現最佳的大學院校世界排名是68名而台灣的第二名則是世界排名第210名的清華大學所以台大是唯一進入百大的台灣高等教育機構"},{"start":12169.628,"end":12197.68,"text":"那麼臺大的資工系近年來也跟臺大的電機系分庭抗禮相互征徽成為我們臺灣協子理工科系的第一志願上週才結束的那個臺北電腦展徽達執行長黃仁勳他表示說要在臺灣設立AI的一個研發中心還有總部所以我請問次長目前臺灣的AI人才足夠嗎?"},{"start":12199.382,"end":12223.669,"text":"我想就跟委員報告就是我們要把AI人才要再做一個更細的區分如果是AI帶一個就是說是研發AI技術的人才這方面確實我們還是不夠不足所以這是為什麼會在碩博士班有很多外加的名額在重點科技學院我們大概每年有一千大概972個碩博士的名額就是要外加要訓練更多這樣的學生"},{"start":12224.349,"end":12239.382,"text":"目前是不足,但是我們現在看到我們台灣的各個產業大家都在積極地說要投入AI的一個研發所以在這種情況之下你目前可能要去培養這些AI的人才,現在會不會緩不濟急?"},{"start":12241.103,"end":12242.885,"text":"臺灣的高教方向是否應加強AI的部分?這我認同你認同嗎?我最後就是說"},{"start":12270.25,"end":12296.269,"text":"台灣現在有最優秀的人才新竹也是全台高科技人才密集度最高的地方那麼臺大的校地就在新竹所以我建議是不是研議把臺大的新竹校區來設立AI學院培育我們本土的AI人才並爭取與揮打來這個設立它的研發中心就在我們的臺大的竹北"},{"start":12297.19,"end":12298.552,"text":"在台大效力設立研發中心或總部"},{"start":12312.589,"end":12328.18,"text":"在一個月之內研議出一個報告報告委員 這個回答他的總部媒體的報導似乎他已經定案了是 我說你研議嘛 我現在就提一個方向給你嘛好不好 一個月之內跟台大共同來討論提出順便報告 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝林委員接下來我們請陳廷飛委員"},{"start":12344.908,"end":12348.892,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是請次長好 次長委員好次長我就就你的口頭報告有幾個問題來跟你就教一下其實你了解為什麼現在很多的企業都說他們在缺人才除了少子化以外他們也說他們在缺人才為什麼"},{"start":12370.404,"end":12372.025,"text":"這就是我今天要請教次長的"},{"start":12396.482,"end":12402.901,"text":"你洋洋灑灑然後有做了這麼完整的口頭報告可是這其中有一個部分"},{"start":12403.976,"end":12427.754,"text":"我們要怎麼讓這些學生能夠被訓練成為這些老闆所需要的對象那才能把他combine在一起嗎那如果沒有的話永遠這個問題還是存在即使我們投注了再多的資源一樣沒有辦法去解決我們人才的短缺都不要談少子化"},{"start":12428.755,"end":12441.937,"text":"少子化是後面我們整個國家的問題可是就現階段我們有很多的年輕朋友找不到工作可是也有好多老闆找不到人才"},{"start":12443.291,"end":12461.186,"text":"這到底是怎麼一回事這才是我們今天要去討論的就算我們現在有一些平台各部會然後去做溝通協調經濟部然後教育部然後各個產業界然後把它匯集進來可是問題還是沒解決啊"},{"start":12462.487,"end":12476.365,"text":"跟委員報告因為我之前因為這10年我都在新創業界所以我其實廣泛收集業界這些創辦人們CEO們的建議他們都認為關鍵會在於說台灣的學生在大學就學期間"},{"start":12477.466,"end":12504.771,"text":"比較少,相對於美國或其他國家是比較少去做intern的也就像他在大二、大三的時候他沒有機會先去公司了解公司是什麼狀況需要什麼能力去碰觸到實體面對,所以這就是為什麼我們在專報裡面的這個第三點我們希望通過接下來三年的時間在大學開始塑造這個大二升大三這個暑假就覺得說我應該去找公司做intern這樣子的文化"},{"start":12505.291,"end":12530.103,"text":"那時候我們有這些平台跟機制的配套要來通過三年時間來主播的演説沒錯,你所說的就是利用我們在校的期間可能到業界去做一些實習那重點是你有沒有辦法訓練出這些業界要的人才否則如果你去實習一樣他感受不到說這些就是他們要的人才"},{"start":12531.021,"end":12554.165,"text":"那變成是兩個部分沒有交集啊沒錯我們讓了我們學生去實質去碰觸到實體面他可能只是會覺得這到底是不是我的興趣我是不是要再去學第二專才可能是這個樣子可是我們今天企業界你所訓練的人才是不是他要的"},{"start":12555.356,"end":12577.514,"text":"那這個會不會這個平台可以接的起來是其實是現在其實最關鍵的我們在業界所聽到都是如此就是說今天大學生也好不論是一般生或是技職學校的學生今天到了職場發現跟他們所需要的有落差"},{"start":12578.513,"end":12594.988,"text":"可是這個落差不可能透過一個暑假或一個寒假的時期然後他就可以把它整個整合起來沒這麼厲害他就沒學到啊他沒有學到他怎麼能夠在職場當中去表現甚至只是會說"},{"start":12596.553,"end":12621.437,"text":"打斷了他原本的興趣因為去高雄行政委司長發言不是這樣啊他過去對於這樣的一個環境是有很多的憧憬結果回到這個實習面之後他怎麼跟他所感覺的完全不一樣所以在專業領域跟實習面的領域有落差之後反而讓他打退堂鼓"},{"start":12623.054,"end":12643.805,"text":"這是我們現在其實很重要的關鍵 次長我今天只是把問題提出來 我們有期待 我們不希望說今天一個新政府的團隊還是一樣曾經在過去沒有把問題找出來 因為這兩塊其實真的落差很大"},{"start":12645.1,"end":12669.414,"text":"我們每天都聽到我們業界在跟我們請求說拜託我們要人才我們缺工缺工缺工但是有一方我們卻是不斷的聽到我們青少年朋友畢業生找不到工作找不到工作找不到工作這問題在哪裡拜託次長是不是一個月把報告完整的到辦公室好不好是好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12671.34,"end":12681.128,"text":"好 謝謝陳婷芬委員接下來林楚英委員謝謝林楚英委員林楚英委員好接下來我們請翁曉林委員有請葉次長委員好"},{"start":12693.092,"end":12713.125,"text":"市長好,是這樣的本行因為也是來自於學界所以我對於大學裏面的一些問題相當的關心首先我就想要請教一下您今天這個主題是談到高教如何經營我想請問市長知道嗎我們大學的學費有多少年沒漲了"},{"start":12715.162,"end":12743.111,"text":"十幾年了十幾年了您覺得部長是合理的嗎您來自台灣大學您大概知道現在這個學校裡的這個教學成本是個校務經營的成本應該很高吧是當然我們也給台大蠻多補助的是嗎有給台大補助對全台灣大概只有台大拿到最多的補助可是其他的學校呢是苦哈哈台大是很有能力很有資源可以去募款但是其他的學校呢可能募款能力就沒有台大這麼好"},{"start":12743.971,"end":12756.62,"text":"那麼我本期是認為說在這麼多年來我們的大學的學費都沒有調整過但是物價不斷的膨脹就連電費現在也都這個大幅的提升雖然說現在教育部好像是已經跟各大學講這目前大學的電費是不會調漲但是以現在台電虧損的狀況估計可能下年度就會再調漲那麼請問有沒有可能將大學學費管制鬆綁"},{"start":12774.973,"end":12781.077,"text":"但是你們條幅上限合理嗎?而且為什麼你們條幅上限公告之後卻沒有學校或是至少現在沒有聽到什麼公立大學有提出申請?"},{"start":12798.691,"end":12802.792,"text":"本席認為這個議題非常非常重要那我希望你們是不是可以在一個月之內可以提出未來要檢討大學學費管制鬆綁的方案給本席"},{"start":12822.817,"end":12848.282,"text":"可以從法規上面還有整個方向去做調整那第二個議題就是現在呢談到就是這個教育部也很鼓勵各大學要以學生為中心然後開創很多不同的創新的學習模式那以本習之前所服務的清華大學大概是首創所謂的清華學院那麼裡面就招了一批特殊選才的學生可是請問一下"},{"start":12849.562,"end":12865.771,"text":"教育部有沒有去做過評估這些學校到底有沒有能力可以提供給特殊選才的學生有足夠的學習資源比如說清華大學根本沒有舞蹈學院可是你找了一堆選了一些舞蹈學系的或是會溜冰的或是會跳繩的學生進來有能力去輔導他們嗎?"},{"start":12870.107,"end":12871.429,"text":"其實大學應該要負責任"},{"start":12890.29,"end":12912.585,"text":"我們今天竟然要延攬這些特殊選才的學生進來就應該要給這些學生有足夠的學習資源讓他們可以在學校裡面學習成長而不是他們之後又到外面去找夜市那這些夜市又沒有辦法去控管他們的能力到底是怎麼樣那說難聽一點這個可能有些學生甚至是來混文憑的那麼我必須要講教育部應該要更"},{"start":12913.385,"end":12935.301,"text":"有責任有義務要去了解這些特殊選材的學生進來之後他的學藝的程度他的發展以及他未來出路的狀況是怎樣他的這個出路是如何那麼我希望教育部也能夠對我這個部分去進行研析還有就是這個因為次長您的專業就是AI我想在現在AI時代您認為語言還重要嗎"},{"start":12938.4,"end":12941.042,"text":"所以在大學裡面有必要去實施全面化的這個全語教學嗎?"},{"start":12956.294,"end":12977.201,"text":"但是你們現在訂了相當高的一個比例至少未來要差不多25%的這個課程全部到全英語化但是呢我覺得在AI時代其實真的必須要去思考這個賴清德總統的這樣的雙語政策是不是有去實施的必要那對大學來講其實已經造成很多的這個學生在學習的時候出現了很多的問題"},{"start":12978.061,"end":12996.519,"text":"老師也覺得說教學也遇到困難那麼在一個全部都是我們台灣孩子的這個課堂裡面卻要用英語教學那大家的學習效果也不好在大學端是如此那在中小學更是如此那麼我希望教育部可以好好的去檢討這樣的一個雙語教學或所謂的EMI的教學計畫不要用這樣的一個計畫去綁架"},{"start":13002.825,"end":13007.307,"text":"但是如果你們沒有這個計畫的話他就不會來申請你們可以把這個計畫用在更有效的更有意義的地方而不是透過這個計畫你們要去實驗這個政策因為現在大學就像我剛回到一開始講的嘛高教"},{"start":13030.618,"end":13031.138,"text":"感謝我們接下來請范雲委員"},{"start":13056.687,"end":13056.968,"text":"謝謝昭葦 有請次長"},{"start":13063.137,"end":13063.417,"text":"委員好"},{"start":13094.218,"end":13120.197,"text":"不好意思 我沒有想起來那就是我今天要講的就是我們產創條例實施三年那個想要透過跟產業界合作然後做創新的那當然在產創條例實施前所謂的產學合作利益都良好像你這個部分都講的是好的部分可是有很多的亂象那我覺得也是該到一個檢討的時期"},{"start":13122.198,"end":13150.757,"text":"上次我有問過部長不知道次長有沒有去了解就是楊交大的師生抗議覺得學校在建架迎合企業就是要讓群聯進駐原本人家捐給客家學院要做就是客家學院的土地那不知道次長有沒有了解這個事情的發展報告委員這個案子後來就撤案了後來撤案了那次長您的態度您覺得可是是在"},{"start":13152.098,"end":13159.343,"text":"市長,您對這件事情的態度是什麼呢?你覺得原本楊交大要這樣做到底是不是我們產學合作該做的方向?"},{"start":13173.587,"end":13189.693,"text":"我覺得他這個案子我覺得他其實確實是應該要顧及到當地的人文的這個原本的特色這件事情確實當初這樣子會引起這個課院的師生的抗議我覺得這個是有道理的"},{"start":13190.393,"end":13215.38,"text":"當然我是想請次長去了解一件事就是我們現在居然沒有任何的法規可以去規範就如果課院師生沒有出來抗議的話可能這整個事情你知道就過去了我們看起來好像覺得很不合理的一個產學合作的方向跟內容它幾乎沒有任何的法規我們可以處理那當然跟我們這個大學自主等等有相關"},{"start":13216.28,"end":13237.015,"text":"但是我要告訴次長的是這不是第一次而且我現在講的不是只有楊交大我現在光舉楊交大這麼一個國立大學我們私立大學的部分我們還先不要舉因為這個是發生在今年的事情我們辦公室也有接到陳情不過後來就是楊交大的那個案子就自己撤案了就沒有要讓群聯來用這一塊地蓋商辦"},{"start":13240.778,"end":13261.819,"text":"可是陽嬌大2021 二零二一年就發生過交應樓的爭議也發生過致遠樓的爭議那我已經跟教育部所知知道就是說你們其實是瞭解這個狀況的那你看2021年的時候這個華映捐的這個商業大樓它破產之後連媒體都報告過還想拿來變現抵債"},{"start":13265.242,"end":13269.366,"text":"至遠樓的部分也一樣他們還有產權爭議後來還在官司中5月30日法院才核定企業界沒有擁有產權"},{"start":13280.495,"end":13299.938,"text":"所以次長你怎麼看產權合作到最後產權還有爭議還在那個企業還想拿來抵押就是抵債然後就是還想要上法院要求要擁有這個產權我們怎麼產權合作到最後產權明明都是國立大學是不是國家的土地請問次長"},{"start":13301.005,"end":13318.821,"text":"跟委員報告,我們認為這是國家的土地國家的資源,進行產學合作不管是空間之後要怎麼運用,最重要的就是要在教育的目的之下不管他是轉租或是他做什麼事情,其實都還是要在教育目的之下"},{"start":13319.582,"end":13334.855,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":13339.096,"end":13341.919,"text":"有任何法規可以處理嗎?已經失去了教育的目的的話?學校跟任何產學他就訂一個產學合作的契約"},{"start":13355.615,"end":13381.925,"text":"那契約你們有辦法管理嗎?沒有,現在因為國立大學有關他的這些土地建物是由他來當管理機關不是教育部所以這個就是問題那台大就發生有一位教授去告說因為台大當時校長不願意公佈跟郭台銘的基金會的契約內容說是私人契約沒有需要公開後來告到法院法院最後判那個教授應該要公開因為是公共事務"},{"start":13382.865,"end":13408.375,"text":"所以現在這個契約連自己學校的教授都不能看所以這裡面一定是契約出了問題嘛那您剛講次長講得非常好要以教育為目的我們光以當時這個報導就是都已經不是教育的目的了學師生熬夜做研究那個企業大樓的管委會還嫌他們就是用水電是不是用太多不歡迎他們熬夜做研究"},{"start":13409.075,"end":13433.709,"text":"所以原本企業捐款蓋大樓因為學校需要這個錢可是土地明明是國家的是這個洋交大的最後會發生就是企業也沒有再提供什麼產學合作的機會了還租給別的企業當辦公室收租金所以這裡面這個亂象已經失去了教育的目的那問題就在於教育部好像無法可管"},{"start":13435.85,"end":13456.73,"text":"目前屬於國有財產有國有財產法的一個規定那他的規定就是剛才次長所講的所以你的意思是國有財產署要去管嗎?不是他如果不符合即使有產權合作的契約但是他符合國有財產法的那個目的的使用那只要不符合學校依法要給他收回所以依法誰去收回是國有財產署去收回嗎?學校"},{"start":13457.53,"end":13484.148,"text":"學校去收回,學校就不管啊,學校很高興啊簽那個約簽40年啊學校應該要依法收回但是學校沒有依法收回的時候呢?那我們就會督促學校應該去收回那你們看到剛剛那個新聞你們有去督促學校嗎?這個楊交大這個是2021年的新聞欸你們有去督促學校嗎?有關這個交應樓因為它華映公司破產了以後所以其實整個產權已經拿回到楊交大在使用"},{"start":13484.528,"end":13504.797,"text":"那只是因為他進入破產程序就會有一些債權出來主張那我現在要講是你這個已經是亡羊補牢了可是有多少這種約包含剛剛講臺大那個電機系教授去告的那個事情表示這個約本身有很大的問題所以我現在再舉更多的例子清華大學被學生抗議的臺北政經學院"},{"start":13506.718,"end":13527.566,"text":"還有2014年北科大經過中校東路都有看過北科大產學合作為名的出租大樓學生也看過無用便汽車賣場這個部分那是教育用途嗎請問那個次長北科大的校地賣汽車賣高檔汽車在中校東路上您有經過過吧那棟大樓不是那麼了解那棟大樓不是嗎"},{"start":13535.589,"end":13560.014,"text":"我說我不是那麼了解我不是說不是你不了解齁沒有關係齁這個部分齁其實到現在為止師生抗議國之後對就還是沒有辦法處理喔所以呢我想產學合作現在造成的問題就是齁校地變成商用產權引爭議跌床架屋最近還有台大的政經學院案齁就是齁校園民主似乎失靈了齁"},{"start":13560.754,"end":13560.774,"text":"次長．"},{"start":13584.164,"end":13587.69,"text":"委員是說就是台大最近依照我們這個產創條例通過的那個政經學院"},{"start":13593.193,"end":13617.834,"text":"第一次校務會議沒有通過因為很多老師反彈主要是政治系、經濟系的第二次不知道為什麼就通過了我要問的事情是當時十幾個民團跟學生會就認為他有很多的問題我想問的事情是次長你知不知道這個產學條例他會避開哪些高教重要法規這是一個特別法他避開了哪些法"},{"start":13619.871,"end":13637.748,"text":"我想他是在鬆綁一些關於採購人士的這些他會跳過大學法跳過教師法這兩個就夠重要了您應該會非常了解可是我們以台他這個例子為例就是學位授予法至少跳過了10條法因為他是特別法所以權力非常的大"},{"start":13638.428,"end":13651.176,"text":"但是以台大政經學院的過程當時我們講的不是政治經濟也不是地緣政治因為是產創嘛所以台大的教授寫文章次長有空可以看一下黃長林這位委員教授講的是這不符合我們產創條例的精神"},{"start":13655.359,"end":13657.743,"text":"但是這個部分是我們相關的審議會放寬的內容把這個政治經濟加進去當時我們講的都是類似像台積電等等這些半導體的那不知道為什麼是這樣那我想"},{"start":13672.102,"end":13672.122,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":13704.063,"end":13706.404,"text":"主席有請次長次長好賴清德總統多次宣誓要將台灣打造成AI智慧島"},{"start":13729.128,"end":13754.675,"text":"有提三個要點第一個是要穩定供電、多元預電第二個是要建制超級電腦第三個你知道是什麼嗎AI人才對培養人才培養人才方面總統說不管ICT產業、晶圓製造、半導體或人工智慧的人才政府都會持續培養讓台灣成為人工智慧島的目標可以實現"},{"start":13756.115,"end":13773.737,"text":"可是我們看到108課綱實施之後事實上大砍自然領域的學分數那過去物理化學生物跟地球科學必修學分有16個學分到108課綱只剩下8個學分等於上述這4個科目都只剩2個學分"},{"start":13775.079,"end":13794.219,"text":"這產生一些連鎖效應基本學分及上課時數不足教師只能拼命趕課學生在短時間內難以吸收收課時數減少後也相對影響了計算練習也影響後續尤其特別是學習理工進階課程的基礎"},{"start":13796.901,"end":13822.833,"text":"這樣的一個循環減損了學生的學習信心跟興趣那有很多的大學發現108課綱大學新生的數理能力弱化那微積分跟普通化學弱化尤其明顯那有些學者就擔心學生數理能力不足會削弱我們科技科學工程數學人才實力也同時會動搖我們國家半導體人才的根基"},{"start":13823.713,"end":13849.605,"text":"次長你是電機工程專家也在台大任教你有注意到學生數與能力的一個問題嗎跟委員報告我這台電機系至少看到沒有很明顯的感覺到也許台大不錯沒有明顯感受到那你覺得這些大學其他大學教授但又是有齊聚還是沒有根據"},{"start":13852.122,"end":13854.263,"text":"所以相反的看起來是非常的圓滿嘛對不對一切沒問題了"},{"start":13871.095,"end":13894.727,"text":"但是現在的問題是出在說跟委員報告就是說因為我們現在招生一直以來都是這個兩階段的招生很多學生在這個正式上了學校之後他下學期就請假這是個還蠻普遍的現象對那現在的狀況又是因為所以這個也沒有影響那這就有影響因為就有的學生他就高三下就沒有好這些危機分高三下他就沒辦法學起來對"},{"start":13895.447,"end":13909.157,"text":"但是問題是又在處在於說大學又希望多收學生大學現在是你今天就算高中沒有畢業他也可以入學可是剛剛次長你跟我講你在教學過程當中你沒有看到影響啊可見這個問題也沒有影響是這個意思嗎"},{"start":13911.018,"end":13913.259,"text":"我這樣講好了其實課綱實施以來真的問題重生啦有很多人有很多意見相信次長也都有看到那有些親身體驗的高中生說新課綱"},{"start":13930.408,"end":13942.152,"text":"提出了108課綱觀察報告首屆觀察報告說學生批評是一群住在象牙塔的學者們高團扩論以自身觀點構想一個無法落實的教育規劃這個是讓同學們"},{"start":13945.453,"end":13947.956,"text":"我自己也會應邀到我的選區的學校畢業典禮致詞"},{"start":13963.92,"end":13988.165,"text":"如果我到我的選區的高中致詞的時候跟大家講說我跟你講國會改革非常重要今天執政黨反國會改革就是反民主我們年輕同學們要站出來反對執政黨要力抗執政黨這種所謂的為了維護政府黑箱然後阻止今天國會改革希望同學們勇敢站出來你覺得我在高中畢業典禮講這段話合適嗎?"},{"start":13991.731,"end":14015.908,"text":"如果就委員剛才講的內容我覺得這個演講我必須要知道這個可能他的上下脈絡我就說假設我到畢業生當然我不會講啦我直接跟你講我怎麼會講這些話我說如果我在高中畢業典禮講這段話你覺得合適嗎因為我剛才嚇到我不知道委員當然啦跟你蠻不一樣"},{"start":14016.528,"end":14023.312,"text":"非常好就是你的反應你會嚇到我是嚇到說你講這些話對對對我跟你講就不會講嘛我不會講這些話嘛可是問題是這些話就有人講啊對不對我們教育基本法第6條規定教育本於中立原則學校不得為特定政治團體從事宣傳或活動這教育基本法你應該認同吧對不對第6條的規定對不對可是抱歉我看到民進黨委員在成大南宮的畢業典禮上"},{"start":14043.522,"end":14043.562,"text":"以上,謝謝。"},{"start":14074.346,"end":14077.191,"text":"好 謝謝兩位接下來是邱志偉委員你要跟他換嗎?四分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":14097.645,"end":14100.812,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我想請葉市長、記者、楊市長。好,記者,謝謝。"},{"start":14109.971,"end":14131.16,"text":"市長,您有沒有到過南部的大學?或是技術體系的大學?有,上禮拜才去高科大高科大好,高科大是國立的嘛那私立的部分呢?有沒有去過?私立...上禮拜去開南大學,但它不是科大我的選區,大概有過去的高院科大,現在轉型"},{"start":14132.591,"end":14133.551,"text":"中信又接了一個科大環球遠東科大"},{"start":14154.858,"end":14157.519,"text":"另外一個模式,你有聽過素人醫教嗎?素人醫專嗎?"},{"start":14185.39,"end":14208.166,"text":"有齁那有沒有聽過這個在湖內湖內有一所你知道什麼設計學院東方有聽過嗎東方現在已經準備要退場嘛對不對為什麼相隔不到一公里哇素人衣裳搶搶棍我每年穿上那畢業典禮哇盛況空前那為什麼這個旁邊的"},{"start":14215.787,"end":14217.794,"text":"東方科大 面臨第二天的退場"},{"start":14219.684,"end":14246.056,"text":"市長你比較了解這兩個學校差異在哪裡跟委員報告素人醫專他是專科而且他的科系會比較屬於醫護、照護這方面然後有一些證照的科系所以他的招生是真的不錯這個是當然學生人數有7000人而且他不是在都會區交通也不方便"},{"start":14247.637,"end":14255.182,"text":"就是因為他的科系吸引學生所以這就是重點你要有科系吸引學生未來他們的就業有競爭力"},{"start":14257.256,"end":14279.566,"text":"所以未來你的自己的體系要往這方面去思考是 這個也是部長上來一直在跟我們講說要讓我們的大學去針對你周遭鄰近的產業他需求的人才不要所有的事情都推給少子化少子化是每一個人都會面對的海嘯每一個學生都會面對的海嘯為什麼素人醫專可以這個辦得那麼好一定有他的原因 對不對"},{"start":14281.243,"end":14310.038,"text":"那為什麼這個東方科大跟其他的科大為什麼要輪到退場也有它的原因不能完全歸咎要少子化所以你的政策國外很重要另外企業的導入企業資源的導入也很重要國內很多半導體產業半導體的大廠他們資金雄厚啊由他們來接手對他們而言是非常輕而易舉的事情但是可以培養他們所需要的人才"},{"start":14311.735,"end":14339.451,"text":"您現在手上口袋清單列出來目前只能等待要退場的計職大學有幾所市長跟委員報告目前就是7月今年這4所退場之後目前暫時是沒有的所以未來會更嚴重少子化問題還是一直惡化下去所以不是沒有救還是有就是你辦法要用對"},{"start":14340.868,"end":14341.748,"text":"另外Stan的領域"},{"start":14366.902,"end":14388.867,"text":"這個科學技術這個工程數學女性的部分我們比起歐盟這部分的畢業生比例相當於其他的國家是少很多怎麼樣這個女性各方面的條件不管在數學或者是科學"},{"start":14390.137,"end":14411.658,"text":"為什麼我們比例會比別人還低?比其他國家還低?主要原因是什麼?這個可能時間跟話的關係啊師長或者這個師長再去了解一下怎麼樣把這個比例能夠提升我們有一個計畫就是在推動提升女性投入實戰領域的你要有一個目標值有有有好謝謝"},{"start":14416.135,"end":14423.759,"text":"邱志威委員是非常尊重時間的還是要給你一個讚當然下面也有一個非常尊重時間的楊瓊英委員謝謝"},{"start":14439.061,"end":14451.853,"text":"市長好,我們今天討論高教,那高教的危機到底是怎麼樣呢?在你的這個歷程裡頭,你投資了在創新呢,不斷的在推廣"},{"start":14453.4,"end":14473.792,"text":"您有一句話蠻吸引人的您說您關注的不再是教學方面的一個層面而是要如何透過教育讓台灣的下一代更有能力跟自信的去面對變化快速的未來世界 對不對所以在這樣的一個情況之下"},{"start":14474.753,"end":14489.169,"text":"教育是百年大計它也是社會長遠健康發展以及提升總體的競爭力非常重要的奠基的工程你拼命的點頭但是有人憂心說目前的這個現況"},{"start":14490.831,"end":14491.051,"text":"請做說明"},{"start":14508.969,"end":14535.692,"text":"我想現在我們遇到的當然就是少子化的挑戰所以我們現在其實是對於這個少子化一方面我們其實政府的政策是我們在2030我們有非常大的這個人力的缺口大概三十四萬人臺灣的產業所以我們現在其實是非常積極的在幫助這些大學那用政府以前都是各自學校在海外招生我們現在就是一起打群架把集結大的力氣那我們在"},{"start":14536.172,"end":14536.272,"text":"進行專題報告．"},{"start":14563.015,"end":14581.322,"text":"本席給您一個方向目前我們政府推動的新南向政策其中一個最大的面向就是您剛才所說的人才的交流但是您沒有去盤點目前在國內的情況究竟是怎麼回事您告訴我的是2030年本席請問的是目前的社會現象"},{"start":14586.345,"end":14590.509,"text":"目前新會議現場南向政策的人才交流目前狀態是如何嗎?"},{"start":14595.014,"end":14615.226,"text":"跟委員報告我們從106年開始實施的新南向產學專班到112年我們總共已經有兩萬出頭的新南向的學生在臺灣就學所以這個其實是已經有增加了整個外籍學生的這樣的一個量當然持續的我們還會繼續來做相關計畫以擴增到2030我們要累積到"},{"start":14624.012,"end":14632.789,"text":"講到一個重點如果讓有些人是操作成為是補充學校學生園的一個人口"},{"start":14634.002,"end":14634.483,"text":"你去盤點好不好?"},{"start":14654.446,"end":14674.908,"text":"因為我們有一個政策下去我們必須要看它的結果是怎麼樣你去反點目前這些人的做法好的我們要宣導之不好的你要怎麼應對之因為你許下了到2030年要這樣的人數進來那想盡了一些辦法要怎麼樣去當高教"},{"start":14675.649,"end":14689.62,"text":"你的結果是如此嗎?所以也透過這樣子一個彩學專班合作來努力來推動所以你把你目前的盤點的方向然後書內資料給本席最後一個議題功課給你在競爭的這個國際高教的環境當中"},{"start":14695.924,"end":14719.805,"text":"我們也看到了目前有這個85%納入台灣大學當然也是你自己的學校我們比以往特別一個重點在於就業成果我們是往下滑的這個跟你的理念好像你要推廣的它反而是往下滑的是什麼原因你也把你這個詳細的書面資料給本席"},{"start":14723.964,"end":14742.718,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝楊純英委員 謝謝次長接下來我們請何欣淳委員 何欣淳委員 何欣淳委員張家俊委員 張家俊委員 張家俊委員鄭振淳委員 鄭振淳委員 鄭振淳委員 黃國昌委員"},{"start":14754.269,"end":14754.789,"text":"關於民意足協"},{"start":14782.11,"end":14785.97,"text":"我們國家支持迷你足協我也支持"},{"start":14787.062,"end":14809.81,"text":"我們給他非常多的錢希望把錢用在包口上讓我們這些小朋友可以有健康的身心去踢足球我們都樂觀其成但問題是什麼但問題是這個錢撒下去都可以胡搞瞎搞我相信這是大家全民的共識我在4月10號的時候我那個時候問了副署長說這些問題"},{"start":14813.171,"end":14836.661,"text":"你們什麼時候要查出來跟我說兩個禮拜徹查清楚結果我等到4月29號在質詢的時候那個時候換署長鄭世忠上來說說他們需要半年以上的時間在那次質詢的時候我就覺得很誇張查一個簡單的帳要花半年以上的時間來我請教一下現在"},{"start":14837.581,"end":14865.74,"text":"因為我到財政委員會我另外要求審計部針對這件事情要做專案的審計審計的報告請問體育署收到沒有報告委員昨天收到審計的那個報告人家早就做出來了你們還要開一個標案再去找外面的人來查現在審計部都幫你們查完了來我們來看一下審計部是怎麼講的"},{"start":14867.793,"end":14889.98,"text":"我當初就跟你們講一查全部都是自己人那些單據我初步一整理裡面偽造變造的痕跡就很明確結果你們持續的拖延持續的打太極說查要半年以上想要用時間換取空間看這件事情可不可以混過去來我們來看一下"},{"start":14891.64,"end":14905.41,"text":"審計部的報告第一點指出來的單據開立的時間點廠商已經解散或歇業解散或歇業可以再開發票出來請款嗎來請教一下副處長包委員應該是不可以的吧應該是不可以嘛所以你看審計部用的詞多重"},{"start":14914.266,"end":14930.016,"text":"已經涉及到刑事責任依照審計法移送法務部所屬調查機關查辦這已經是刑事犯罪行為了先業解散的公司還可以開發票"},{"start":14932.435,"end":14956.514,"text":"然後拿去跟你們體育署報帳這會不會太離譜啊我們2017年在做體育改革的時候就是要防止這種不孝的協會嘛吸納稅的血嘛結果到2024年的時候怎麼樣民主主席是政治後台比較硬喔敢這樣胡搞瞎搞喔再來看"},{"start":14958.271,"end":14986.9,"text":"依照政府採購法應該要辦理公開招標的他卻沒有依法辦理自己去選特定的廠商選哪些特定的廠商我之前整理給體育署看過了全部都是一家人還有自己協會的人出去開的公司什麼都賣結果審計部的調查報告說了什麼違法沒有按照政府採購程序而且高於什麼"},{"start":14989.41,"end":15010.03,"text":"類似商品的採購價格或市場行情一併依照審計法移送法務部所屬調查機關查辦各別的協會胡搞瞎搞所有涉案的人要負責追究法律責任沒有問題但問題是什麼問題是請問體育署在做什麼"},{"start":15011.167,"end":15034.082,"text":"為什麼我說體育署在做什麼來看一下審計報告體育署補助項目的檢核機制缺爐啊你們完全沒有設審核機制啊或者是雖然定有自行檢核表但也沒有落實審核啊對於審計部針對體育署檢核機制缺爐就是沒有啦"},{"start":15039.977,"end":15048.225,"text":"提議書有什麼要說的?他說的對不對?他說你沒有檢核機制應該要設檢核機制根本沒有檢核機制放縱這些個別的不肖的協會胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":15064.484,"end":15090.674,"text":"審計部有沒有說錯?跟委員報告應該是說我們在落實方面應該再加強啦人家說你檢核機制缺乳欸缺乳的中文字語很難理解嗎?來請一下次長這件事情的責任要不要追究?我想這個我們後續應該要在這個事情上因為秉承兄來自學界我們之前也是好朋友我對你有很高的期待"},{"start":15092.335,"end":15120.432,"text":"在行政機關當中出現這樣子的狀況能夠不追究責任嗎來請教次長我想這個我們應該要回去好好來檢討這到底是哪邊出了問題這不是哪邊出了問題啊我跟次長報告這是該做的事情根本沒有做這是該做的事情根本沒有做來最後一樣因為主席站起來了不好意思再跟主席借一分鐘就好了先跟科委員致歉再一分鐘就好了"},{"start":15121.328,"end":15133.775,"text":"他說你們應該要派員實地訪查結果你們根本沒有落實派員實地訪查過去這兩年只有書面審核然後你們書面審核大概是閉著眼睛審的審計部短短的時間抓了這麼多問題出來你們沒有派員實地查核用書面審查結果書面審查了以後你們也沒有發現受補助的體育團體"},{"start":15150.492,"end":15175.169,"text":"有問題人家一專案審計下去問題全部都跑出來這件事情一定要徹底的檢討怎麼發生的為什麼國民體育法修正通過了以後還會出現了我們以前所詬病沒有辦法容忍的狀態這件事情我希望教育部要去切實的督導體育署不要放任體育署這樣胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":15176.297,"end":15187.12,"text":"教育部作為上級的機關絕對有責任要求體育署徹底的檢討責任次長可不可以承諾需要多久不要跟我說要半年喔人家審計報告都提出來了"},{"start":15201.087,"end":15212.685,"text":"一個月之內我最後一個月回覆書面報告的時候順便解釋一下審計部的人跟我講去年的經費他們是不會容許核銷的"},{"start":15213.803,"end":15228.147,"text":"因為已經查到了造假違法了嘛審計部有審計部的職責啦查到違法不可能閉上眼睛他們已經明確的表態了2023年的經費絕對不會核銷2022年的經費還要追回來你們一個月以後的檢討報告順便針對這兩件事情2023年的經費2022年的經費發出去的錢怎麼處理一併說明清楚可以嗎"},{"start":15244.665,"end":15246.447,"text":"徐新穎委員謝依鳳委員蘇清泉委員鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":15266.804,"end":15267.024,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":15303.308,"end":15303.588,"text":"主席"},{"start":15313.763,"end":15314.783,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":15338.912,"end":15339.472,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"}]}},{"id":"16004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16004","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685507799957011912f4eb3296cd325b2f419186e52af124432a2da7df6d47667af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n(一)委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n(二)委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【二(一)及(二)，如經復議，則不予審查；二(三)，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議逐條討論】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-13T08:31:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T10:57:00+08:00","duration":8709,"影片長度":"02:25:09","委員發言時間":"08:31:51 - 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出席委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年6月5日星期三93分至13時55分"},{"start":1807.482,"end":1826.702,"text":"6月6日星期四9時至12時36分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員林月琴等15人列席委員羅明才等29人列席官員6月5日衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員6月6日環境部部長童啟明等相關人員主席黃兆吉委員秀芳"},{"start":1827.322,"end":1831.206,"text":"6月5日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部部長外交部就2024年我國參與世界衛生大會WHA之經過檢討與展望進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1842.817,"end":1859.202,"text":"本日會議由衛生福利部部長報告後委員林月琴等20人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及外交部常務次長陳立國及各相關主管等及其答覆委員陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定依報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1859.802,"end":1863.426,"text":"而委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定通過臨時提案二項6月6日邀請環境部部長就廢棄物佔存量逐年攀升廢棄物處理政策短中長程規劃進行專題報告並備質詢"},{"start":1880.223,"end":1907.994,"text":"本日會議由環境部部長報告後,委員盧憲一等18人提出質詢。軍經環境部部長、經濟部產業發展署署長、聯警張繼各相關主管等即席答覆。委員王育敏、楊耀、鍾家斌及圖全及所提書面質詢,列入紀錄刊登公報。決定一,報告及詢答完畢。二,委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者。請相關機關於二周內書面答覆。委員令要求期限者從其鎖定。通過臨時提案一項。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1911.186,"end":1940.5,"text":"好請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有議事錄確定本日會議議程為繼續審查就業服務法部分條文修正草案等九案以及審查委員張家俊等30人委員王宏威等22人委員鄭天才等16人分別擬具就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案等三案二繼續審查老人福利法條文修正草案等七案"},{"start":1941.141,"end":1969.748,"text":"那首先我們先介紹第一場就業服務法出席的官員還有委員我們介紹委員陳昭芝委員盧憲一委員鄭天才委員陳金輝委員張家俊委員王振旭委員林月琴委員黃秀芳委員那我們介紹出席的官員勞動部何佩珊部長"},{"start":1971.213,"end":1998.607,"text":"勞動力發展署蔡孟良署長勞動法務司副會職司長衛生福利部長期照顧司祝建方司長護理及健康照護司蔡妍妍副司長社會及家庭署游宜君組長國民健康署謝佩君檢任記者援助民主委員會社會福利處"},{"start":1999.417,"end":2020.437,"text":"董慶芬副處長好那今天有再次交付的提案要進行提案說明不吝作詢答現在新增提案委員說明提案要指每位委員兩分鐘我們請張家俊委員說明"},{"start":2031.167,"end":2059.486,"text":"主席各位委員二零二五年也就是明年臺灣就會正式進入超高齡社會隨著我們的福勞比上升對於營法族的照護需求會越來越大本席就所提的就業服務法第四十六條修正草案做說明主要就是要讓八十歲以上的長者能夠不用再申請巴士量表就得以聘用外籍看護移工依現行法規"},{"start":2060.426,"end":2083.52,"text":"要求要申請家庭看護工需提供巴氏量表的評估結果那去年選前衛福部宣布放寬政策包括一使用長照持續六個月以上二經醫師評估失智症輕度以上三擴大特定身心障礙免評對象以上這三項都可以經醫療機構評估失能情況不需要巴氏量表"},{"start":2087.702,"end":2097.206,"text":"但是呢即便如此呢稍微放寬了這些門檻很多突發案例還是緩不及急如果85歲老人家突然跌倒骨折要開刀還要申請外籍看護需要醫院就醫三個月以上還要經門診醫師開立證明對於高齡長者突發狀況多"},{"start":2111.673,"end":2132.214,"text":"對醫療的依賴也比較高。如果是在短時間內發生的意外請問如何有持續就醫的記錄?如何有使用長照半年以上的記錄?因此衛福部去年開放的這些限制沒有考量到這些突發狀況。因此我提出就業服務本席提出就業服務法"},{"start":2132.915,"end":2156.917,"text":"第四十六條草案修正增列放寬條件讓80歲以上的長者有看護需求者得以免除巴氏量表尤其在少子化的今天放寬這樣的規定可以減輕輕壯家屬的負擔不要讓突發的照護需求變成壓倒家屬的最後一根稻草請各位委員予以支持謝謝"},{"start":2159.832,"end":2182.107,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員的說明。現在我們請鄭天才委員說明。主席、各位委員、我們勞動部長及所有的官員。"},{"start":2183.888,"end":2210.115,"text":"嚴柱民族的失業率還有就業率跟非嚴柱民仍然有很大的落差所以在這個切工切料的一個年代對於這個外籍勞工的禁用固然有他的一個需要但是怎麼樣去兼顧嚴柱民的就業的機會所以我特別"},{"start":2211.207,"end":2233.466,"text":"在第46條的增加一項規定對於營造業僱主要禁用外籍勞工我們歡迎他們禁用但是也必須考量到原住民就業的機會所以特別增訂這樣的條文另外就是針對"},{"start":2236.484,"end":2258.219,"text":"第四十六條有關家庭幫傭及康復工作外籍勞工要禁用擔任家庭康復工如果被康復者具有原住民身份的時候他的評估以及認定的方式應該由"},{"start":2259.6,"end":2264.667,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":2275.883,"end":2292.041,"text":"案,支持以及有關我們剛才章家俊委員等很多位的委員上次這個召委在這邊安排的時候有不同的意見,希望能夠今天能夠有一個突破。謝謝大家,謝謝。"},{"start":2293.442,"end":2312.87,"text":"好謝謝鄭天才委員的說明有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在請宣讀本次新增提案條文內容就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案委員張家俊等30人提案委員王宏威等22人提案委員鄭天才等16人提案條文對照表"},{"start":2313.43,"end":2329.484,"text":"委員張家俊等30人提案與委員林德福等19人提案同委員王宏威等22人提案修正第三項如下顧主一前項審查標準聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作被看護者凡年齡滿80歲以上者得免經醫療機構專業評估現行第三項一列為第四項予以現行法同委員鄭天才等16人提案第二項增列後段"},{"start":2338.451,"end":2352.256,"text":"但前項第九款之家庭看護工其被看護者具有原住民身份時其評估與認定方式應由衛生福利部會商原住民族委員會定之修正第三項如下顧主依前項審查標準聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作若被看護者年滿80歲以上或為年滿70歲以上之原住民免經醫療機構專業評估現行第三項宜為第四項"},{"start":2364.921,"end":2393.992,"text":"增訂第五項如下營造業部主依第一項第十款規定聘僱外國人與取得招募許可後,每禁用援助民意人或向援助民族綜合發展基金繳納貸金者,得申請引進外國人二人與與現行法同。宣讀完畢好那我們現在進行就業服務法部分條文修正草案計12案之審查現在請委員表示意見要發言的委員每位三分鐘請到台前發言"},{"start":2398.496,"end":2402.068,"text":"委員都沒有意見。好,那,好來,楊耀委員。"},{"start":2414.37,"end":2438.982,"text":"謝謝主席我想放寬放寬長者的特別長者的申請家庭看護工對於長者的照顧也好對於有需求的家庭也好這是一項福音我想大概沒有人反對不過我還是要請教一下勞動部請部長一下"},{"start":2446.286,"end":2474.058,"text":"就是說因為我們放寬了規定以後呢需求者會大增那在立法的時候我們當然立一個法就是要讓它再可以執行我對於這一次的修法最主要的最大的顧慮就是會不會有排擠效益就是說因為現在"},{"start":2474.878,"end":2478.161,"text":"現在我們有評鑑標準,所以大概需求度都很強。放寬了以後,你們有關勞動力的引進跟增加有沒有配套?"},{"start":2498.533,"end":2525.46,"text":"是跟委員報告主要是那個放寬以後那個需求一下子會驟然大增那個數目大概高達53萬左右那是一個潛在的人口那麼現在全球缺工是全球搶工的現象所以這個未必能有效來及時滿足這麼龐大的需求所以真的是很有可能會造成重度失能者會被排擠"},{"start":2526.8,"end":2553.801,"text":"會變成挑照顧的這樣的一個逆選擇的現象發生對而且跟委員會報告一下就是說我們現在申請呢是依照申請的前後先後順序來做核定所以會不會我們修法過了以後反而造成因為剛剛部長的答覆就是其實看護工的缺口是很大的"},{"start":2554.562,"end":2568.859,"text":"那假如說這麼大的缺口會不會反而我們立法的美意沒有辦法落實給我們這次修法增加出來可以申請的人反而造成"},{"start":2570.219,"end":2591.513,"text":"更應該受到照顧的家庭找不到看護高。是,對,是委員這個很重視的就是問題的所在啦齁。那麼因為我們現在也針對這種健康跟亞健康的長者的照顧需求,我們也要發展一個外展的服務。就是我們未來會在很快的下半年會再挑幾個縣市來合辦喔。然後"},{"start":2595.256,"end":2602.619,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":2622.166,"end":2647.776,"text":"那跟現在的長照是不是相類似的?因為他就不是單一家庭負擔一對多的那就是類似目前的跟現在的長照制度有點像對可是長照是本國人長照服務體系這個是獨立於長照體系之外的是自費的市場"},{"start":2650.181,"end":2656.095,"text":"對我我我不過我還是必須要求勞動部齁就是說就是說欸"},{"start":2659.434,"end":2687.968,"text":"台灣的高齡化這麼明顯還是必須要盡可能的去找到家庭看護控的來源因為一定是有需求才會有這麼多的委員版本要求要而且其實巴士量表確實是造成很多家庭的一個困擾"},{"start":2689.108,"end":2704.995,"text":"特別像在離島偏鄉、原住民地區有的時候要一個長者重複的去醫院做評鑑確實對於家庭來講是一個很大的負擔。"},{"start":2705.575,"end":2719.14,"text":"這一點跟委員報告我們未來準備放寬偏遠地區可以不必去醫院平了這樣子對就是整體的配套我覺得是這樣子就是說行政部門呢"},{"start":2720.529,"end":2745.433,"text":"其實委員的任何版本我相信都是有民意需求才會提出那為什麼會民意需求都是走在前面我們行政部門的配套總是落後了幾拍這個可能行政部門還是要做一下加強好不好好謝謝主席"},{"start":2746.124,"end":2748.227,"text":"楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":2763.235,"end":2789.213,"text":"主席各位同仁今天我們這個八十兩表的審查這個服務法我是一個臨床的心臟外科醫師長久以來我們臨床醫師最大的困擾就是八十兩表八十兩表營化組或者是失能者要申請看護必須要開立八十兩表但是過去要成功開立"},{"start":2790.307,"end":2798.851,"text":"就是男帳家,因為婚宿打得很緊甚至有家屬跟醫師為此發生衝突我幾乎每個禮拜都在處理"},{"start":2806.26,"end":2828.712,"text":"要為家裡的長輩申請看護工必須要到醫院開巴士量表先前有醫師因為不開遭受家屬的攻擊這個當然是少數可見今天所有提案的委員他們真的是有壓力也需要所以以前開例難度那麼高但是很多案例顯示"},{"start":2830.24,"end":2851.328,"text":"對民眾來講,非常辛苦的就是,戰備已經臥床了,容易跌倒了,也不能動了,必須還要把整個人用推的,叫到這裡來,因為他先不看到反正他也不敢給你開啦,因為冒名頂替的也有,醫師因此而被送法辦的也有,所以這個是對所有的臨床醫師來講是夢魘。我相信王振旭委員你應該也有感受到啦,陳新威應該也有感受到啦。"},{"start":2861.952,"end":2882.379,"text":"當時總統大選的時候侯友宜是我跟他提的我建議的因為我是醫療後援總會長不好意思他還沒有選上要不然的話這個早就實施了照顧長輩的證件80歲以上申請外籍移工不需要載82票"},{"start":2885.016,"end":2900.71,"text":"當時民進黨賴清德候選人發現這個政見大受百姓歡迎總統大選期間三個候選人都有共識要放寬民眾黨柯文哲也是一樣當時的薛瑞忍部長"},{"start":2902.51,"end":2924.125,"text":"馬上從善如流立刻由行政院長陳建仁宣布直接採納進行執行效率之高速度之快真是前所未見所以呢表示說這個是非常重要而且迫切齁要拿八十兩表申請刊錄如果不能完成會影響"},{"start":2925.729,"end":2949.667,"text":"事務具大而且現在年輕人大家都是都要上班雙薪等等齁等老人家平均壽命又長像我們屏東我們老人已經佔了20%65歲以上這是非常非常的重要所以這次的修法對民眾是迫切的那我是我建議討論之後就進行表決了送書委員會以上好謝謝接下來我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":2965.041,"end":2991.838,"text":"議員,可以麻煩一下部長嗎?部長,目前整體來看,如果移工的來源充足的話當然,就是源源不絕的人力的話,當然對於高齡者、重病者開放就不需要設任何限制可是實際上你也知道,現在只有76萬的移工,然後社福類23萬,可是我們"},{"start":2992.619,"end":3007.799,"text":"當中有需要的人才是最主要要被照顧的。可80歲以上的高齡者不經巴士量表去直接可以評估,然後這表示80歲以上就全面可以開放評估。如果剛剛提案是這樣。"},{"start":3009.605,"end":3034.891,"text":"的確有我剛剛提到有需要的我們都非常非常地贊成因為我們現在怕的是排擠的效益所以想問部長的是因為去年10月13號你在實施三類的對象適用多元免評估這個資格包括第一類使用長照服務居家日間家庭照顧服務連續6個月以上還有第二個是輕度失智的鬆綁"},{"start":3036.072,"end":3058.326,"text":"那第三個事實上是擴大增加重度呼吸障礙跟中度推進困難中度特定身心障礙的這等14項。想問你去年10月13號之後這樣開放之後到底有哪些會變成80歲以上可能沒辦法納入的?"},{"start":3059.825,"end":3071.995,"text":"就是跟我們報告現在自從我們實施以後80歲以上使用巴士量表的這樣子的一個數據大概已經是三只佔三就是只佔三成了"},{"start":3072.912,"end":3072.932,"text":"案。"},{"start":3090.939,"end":3109.564,"text":"所以在這邊真的要去提醒的是因為我們的很多需要照顧的像重度的患者那因為移工如果量少的時候就有所謂的排擠效應那就會變成是重度需求的家庭他用不到為什麼"},{"start":3110.164,"end":3110.264,"text":"議員林德福"},{"start":3132.185,"end":3132.646,"text":"黃秀芳委員"},{"start":3159.892,"end":3181.65,"text":"謝謝主席我們上一次在委員會也有特別討論過就是我們擔心的是如果這個一旦是80歲以上那免這個巴士量表那會不會造成中正的這個民眾有需要的這個家庭反而是受到排擠那我想講的就是說"},{"start":3182.33,"end":3182.35,"text":"案。 »:"},{"start":3197.188,"end":3198.49,"text":"案。 bicycliffe"},{"start":3216.363,"end":3217.303,"text":"案案案案案案"},{"start":3243.234,"end":3245.396,"text":"議員林德福等19人擬具 «就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項》"},{"start":3260.592,"end":3277.152,"text":"是否程序可以更簡化?或醫師可以直接倒載?這是一個更簡化的方式,更簡便的方式,讓這些需要被照顧的人,需要請外籍看護工的人"},{"start":3277.312,"end":3278.052,"text":"案。 »:接下來請林淑芬委員。"},{"start":3313.755,"end":3332.621,"text":"主席各位委員今天這個委員會審查這個法案的修法已經是第三次討論了我想說的話該講的我們都講了不過在這裡還是今天大家都要出委員會的時候有幾點我在這裡再提醒大家一次第一個大家都說了大家都知道沒有源源"},{"start":3333.061,"end":3345.787,"text":"不覺得外籍康護現在整個康護人力市場是供給小於需求而且是供給遠遠小於需求如果學過經濟學的人都知道供給小於需求是什麼樣的狀況但我們今天的修法"},{"start":3348.348,"end":3351.53,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項議員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項"},{"start":3370.183,"end":3384.204,"text":"一、後遺症未來中風嚴重失能的家庭會找重症的病患找不到這個看護工因為大家要去看護健康的老人和也健康的老人"},{"start":3385.145,"end":3385.165,"text":"案。"},{"start":3408.311,"end":3411.212,"text":"當他的人都要想看看這後遺症誰要負責第二個後遺症市場的法則供給遠遠小於需求薪資價格一定大幅上漲現在有錢還可以聘僱外籍看護的中產階級他們未來薪資外籍看護薪資大幅上漲的時候他的家庭負擔會大幅加劇加重"},{"start":3434.357,"end":3438.441,"text":"這個是雪上加霜所以大家在這種狀況裡面第二個這個後遺症當外籍看護工他現在的薪資遠遠落後於工廠的、廠工的但是如果你這樣子此門門戶一開"},{"start":3449.875,"end":3469.261,"text":"公極勞動力不足然後有錢的80歲我就請外籍看護有錢的人買得起你中產階級也買得起但是你會很難過很糟糕你的這個負擔會加重第三個後遺症它會瓦解我們的長照系統我們的長照系統說得比較難聽"},{"start":3473.632,"end":3498.141,"text":"有錢的人買一對一的外籍看護沒有錢的人只能使用長照系統可是我們知道今年我們的長照預算800多億可是我們知道整個長照不管是日照、外展服務包括所有的共餐等等800多億都還做不到那麼覆蓋率服務的覆蓋率還是很低我們也都有一個願景"},{"start":3499.181,"end":3506.163,"text":"我們的願景是要從現在以福利為概念從偏念預算的800多億的長照系統要過度一定要進入真正的長照保險可是如果我們大量的使用一對一的服務誰還會支持這個長照保險每個人要繳長照保險給那個經濟弱勢的人使用我告訴你有錢可以買一對一的人他就不想參加了"},{"start":3526.349,"end":3530.571,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面我們就放任這一些經濟弱勢的人的長照制度瓦解掉嗎所以今天在這裡我要跟大家講今天你就是這樣子一意孤行的要讓他過必須考量到這三個問題第四個我們還是要為有需要的人解決問題"},{"start":3546.976,"end":3572.669,"text":"這是很重要的每個提案的委員都是本於這個初衷和初心那麼我再一次的拜託大家我們就好好的就事論事我們就有需要哪些人還要再更寬鬆不要巴士量表好好的對待這一些失能的人讓我們再開放更多政府再把這些有需要的人接起來行政更簡化這樣子來討論不是很務實嗎"},{"start":3576.431,"end":3595.304,"text":"所以今天的修法我們為什麼要便宜行事啊八十歲總開放就好啊有的人沒八十歲也有需要捏我們我也講過啊單身未婚沒有家屬可是他沒有八十歲他嚴重失他可能也是輕度失能或是過度時期的失能對不對那要怎麼處理所以我們是不是能務實的來講"},{"start":3600.808,"end":3611.492,"text":"政府、我們法律在把有需要的人接起來,這樣就改過問題就好了,不要再去再做問題啊。今天你用80個一人下去,不是改過問題,是再做問題啦。知事提倡再一次的提醒。接下來請王振旭委員發言。那剛剛這邊有一個提案,幾位委員提案,就是停止討論經負表決。所以王委員,這個發言完之後我們就來處理。"},{"start":3634.577,"end":3650.306,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員我想針對於我們台灣的長者應該接受什麼樣比較完整的照顧大家其實都非常用心那我自己本身以前"},{"start":3651.667,"end":3668.826,"text":"都在醫院裡面工作尤其是癌症病人的確在突發的狀況之下真的他很希望在短時間裡面有很快速的得到相關的幫忙尤其是申請外籍勞工來協助家庭"},{"start":3669.608,"end":3692.953,"text":"另外有一些針對於在雙就業的家庭當長者年紀大的時候很擔心他在家裡沒有人陪伴出現突發狀況的時候應該怎麼處理會比較讓他繼續工作造成這個就業上的問題同時也能夠讓這個長者有好的陪伴"},{"start":3693.493,"end":3722.13,"text":"那可不可以請教一下部長目前我們針對這個雙就業然後有長者在家庭裡面萬一他擔心意外啦或者是有突發狀況沒有人陪伴的時候造成他就業上的這種心理壓力或者是擔心那目前我們在部裡面有安排哪一些的方案來協助這樣的家庭來幫助這個長者可以不用擔心很多人他很喜歡的是"},{"start":3725.112,"end":3738.063,"text":"事實上晚上他們已經回家了,他們就可以持續陪伴長者,那這方面我們有什麼樣的方案可以來協助嗎?對,其實委員您指的就是健康、雅健康的這種在家裡有跌倒的可能性的。我想我們現在的體制裡面衛福部有長照2.0,這個部分本來照服務員他在家裡,他也是"},{"start":3747.23,"end":3775.198,"text":"幾乎是白天到家服務的這樣也居多那勞動部這邊未來我們就是希望能夠移工也能進入這一塊那麼是自費市場就是我剛才在強調的請這個NGO團體跟仲介合作那麼仲介聘移工然後這個統一派案到家裡去然後陪伴這種健康或亞健康的長者這樣子那他不是一個全天候的24小時的那樣子的的全日工的看護這樣子"},{"start":3776.478,"end":3791.011,"text":"對,他會比較有彈性所以他會解決部分的需求對對對對是我們希望能夠這樣能夠補充啦補充長照2.0不足的部分這樣子是因為如果說80歲以上就真的要能夠"},{"start":3792.532,"end":3816.919,"text":"可以免任何的條件之下得到相關的服務內容當然如果我們真的非常仁義、充裕的同仁而不又去影響到我們本地勞工的權益的話當然這個是一種也許是值得考量不過我想剛剛的委員都已經講得非常的清楚如果需要考量各個方面而且是要考量到真的"},{"start":3817.739,"end":3837.372,"text":"作好這方面需求的話我想我們真的是需要非常非常慎重的來考量因為一旦通過這樣的修正的話對於台灣的衝擊可能不是我們現在因為調整以後就真的解決問題就好像林書偉所提到的我們是真的在製造另外一個問題的開始謝謝"},{"start":3847.023,"end":3852.166,"text":"行,好,劉委員,我剛已經有宣告,但劉委員要再發言,就三分鐘我們就停止討論,來。謝謝主席,各位同仁,我想這件事情基本上也已經"},{"start":3869.278,"end":3885.103,"text":"很慎重的來做這個討論我還是繼續林署委員剛剛跟各位特別提醒的這個相關面向的事情我們大家都朝向要讓更多的需求者可以得到這樣的一個"},{"start":3886.21,"end":3912.059,"text":"一對一的照顧。這個本意都沒有問題的。但是實際上供給跟需求面實在是落差非常非常大。我們只有單純從80歲以上的就已經沒有辦法去做供給了。那我還是跟各位我們好像在上課我們再複習一下。我是針對80歲以上的亞健康還有這個"},{"start":3914.744,"end":3920.95,"text":"衛生能健康者已經佔了53萬人,80歲以上人口總數是91萬,衛生能健康者佔了53萬人,需要長期照顧者是佔41.7,就是38萬人。這38萬對照這個53萬,"},{"start":3940.466,"end":3964.458,"text":"會產生什麼樣的一個排擠作用各位先思考一下這第一點齁第二點再給各位複習這一張齁這一張也是那一天我是最早希望衛福勞動部把還有衛福部把這個資料提供給大家做參考的齁這個是呃失智症CDRI對不起CDR一分以上啦齁就24萬"},{"start":3967.775,"end":3991.802,"text":"700多那目前有聘外籍看護工的人數就8萬7千多就已經8萬7千多然後再來就是特定身心障礙項目總共1到14項細節我就不再多談他現在需求人數是7萬5千多目前有聘到外籍看護工的是2萬5千多2萬5千多"},{"start":3994.665,"end":4001.653,"text":"所以用這樣的數據加上80歲以上的需求者其實坦白講已經超過了將近50多萬"},{"start":4005.214,"end":4030.454,"text":"已經超過50多萬所以今天我們的原意我一直感謝昭偉今天可以排這個事情讓大家可以有這個充分討論的這樣的一個空間但是我們是要做正確的事情嘛做對的事情那基本上有時候我們是遇到一個現實的狀況那這個現實的狀況沒有辦法去突破的情況之下"},{"start":4031.107,"end":4047.478,"text":"那可能我們就回到處理緊急需要被照顧對象的現在的這個現狀才是真正解決之道有些事情真的是出發點是對但是他必須循序漸進如果出發點是對要急救張的"},{"start":4048.158,"end":4066.267,"text":"案。netesle等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。netesle等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。netesle等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。netesle等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。netesle等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":4069.789,"end":4097.539,"text":"並顧外籍家庭康復工的失等程度亦比照85歲以上的長者預換寬。其實這個部分就是有一個論據的啊這個論據也是80歲以上但是他沒有他不會一次就就就就要面對幾十萬的這個這個這個可能會提出的這個需求者的這樣的一個風暴所以所以請各位真的可以去思考那我覺得這個這個修正都會各位如果覺得OK"},{"start":4098.588,"end":4106.678,"text":"不分草也,我們大家都可以共同來提案。我們共同面對這個事情,處理這個事情。以上誠懇建立,謝謝大家。"},{"start":4118.8,"end":4119,"text":"案案案案案"},{"start":4139.309,"end":4139.509,"text":"事實上去年10月放寬之後"},{"start":4159.565,"end":4177.926,"text":"案,只剩下三成,不是五十幾萬人,對嗎?我剛剛應該沒有聽錯吧?就是只剩下三成的人,八十歲以上的人,他自從去年放寬之後,他目前是沒有的,如果有需要看護是沒有看護可以提供來,如果經過八十歲,所以事實上不是五十幾萬人,是十幾萬人。"},{"start":4180.788,"end":4196.713,"text":"那部長要說明嗎?再來就是說就以80歲如果大家覺得衝擊很大的那你的優先次序你有什麼方案準備好了沒有?如果今天把大家的需求直接否決掉那這樣我們也是有很多的疑問我先跟您報告第一個所謂三成是指"},{"start":4202.555,"end":4226.162,"text":"用巴氏量表申請,現在只佔80歲以上申請者的三成而已了。我們放寬多元認定以後,因為其他你還可以用長照服務六個月,或者是輕度失智症,或是特定身心障礙項目去申請,這些都佔七成了。現在80歲以上的申請,我的意思是說巴氏量表已經被稀釋到只剩三成的申請功能了啦。"},{"start":4226.462,"end":4231.606,"text":"但是現在我們放寬以後也是只有這麼三成的人會是增加的部分?"},{"start":4231.606,"end":4248.477,"text":"不可是現在放寬以後是沒有私能的人也會有需求產生會有沒有私能的那種健康跟亞健康的長者他會想要請移工來陪伴我當然在確定這個數但是會有53萬的缺口那如果勞動部覺得"},{"start":4250.979,"end":4252.461,"text":"楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":4266.337,"end":4266.357,"text":"案。 »:"},{"start":4284.105,"end":4284.305,"text":"我們請陳金輝委員"},{"start":4313.391,"end":4334.813,"text":"各位委員同事各位官員大家好剛有幾個論點我也想提出來請大家一起來反思一下為什麼當初率先提出來的總統候選人後來紛紛有人跟進表示這個需求不會因為你限制資格而不存在而這個需求是上升的"},{"start":4335.393,"end":4356.814,"text":"表示這個需求不會因為各位現在限縮他的資格而不存在我想這是大家都有一致的共識剛一開始的提案委員說明的非常好現在的三民製家庭很多啊現在終身帶的人肩膀非常的沉重因為往下也很累往上也非常"},{"start":4357.815,"end":4376.435,"text":"大家也不用去懷疑說80歲以上亞健康健康的人一定會去做這樣子的申請這樣也對我們80歲以上的長者有這樣歧視的感覺另外也提到說移工有可能會挑選雇主請問是不是也有新聞在報導說居服員等等"},{"start":4379.318,"end":4400.658,"text":"桑照也一樣遇到同樣的問題呢而我是非常誠懇的希望勞動部部長不管是開發移工或者是在我們國內多騙尋一點多元可照顧的人才這些都是可以大大的舒緩我們這些三明治家族的壓力畢竟呢"},{"start":4401.558,"end":4424.268,"text":"剛有提到說其實勞動部部長也非常非常的重視我們現在的女性是否可以重返職場這個也是您很重要的一個KPI那最後我也很想分享我們臨床的經驗我們很多第一線的醫護人員看到巴士、糧表就皮皮挫因為曾經有同儕因為這樣吃上刑罰那你要一個醫生去判斷"},{"start":4430.09,"end":4445.989,"text":"判斷他是不是假裝的,把很多的壓力都轉介在醫師的身上。還有巴士樑表開不出來,第一線的醫護人員被打,有這樣子的醫療糾紛,然後有這樣子的刑責,導致有些人到醫院他要先到一樓的櫃檯去問說:「請問啊,"},{"start":4448.912,"end":4464.408,"text":"現在這個所有你們醫院的醫生到底還有哪一位是比較願意去做八字兩表的開立這樣子的服務這都是我們第一線的臨床醫生只要看到這四個字就很敏感就很害怕所以呢我是認為啦"},{"start":4466.29,"end":4488.344,"text":"這個議題已經討論了非常非常的久了我是希望說這個照顧的人力多元的開發並且釋放三民製家庭非常沉重的壓力是目前我們臺灣面臨少子化還有高齡化首要的目標那三黨的總統候選人都有這樣子的認同的話我希望大家可以深思一下 謝謝"},{"start":4490.981,"end":4494.905,"text":"好謝謝陳金輝委員那我們現在休息三分鐘就回來處理"},{"start":4684.619,"end":4701.06,"text":"好 那請大家回座 做以下決議除委員圖全吉及呂玉玲提案令則其繼續審查外就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案計時案審查完均"},{"start":4701.84,"end":4716.111,"text":"條文及附帶決議均保留並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時,由王昭吉委員譽名補充說明。是不是要交由黨團協商?好,交由黨團協商。那請問各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見那就通過。好,謝謝大家。那我們第一案的審查已經結束。那針對那個"},{"start":4732.819,"end":4755.628,"text":"與第三案老人福利法無關人員可先行離席那請通知那個衛福部部長我們10點繼續審查老人福利法10點給部長一點時間上來"},{"start":4762.796,"end":4762.816,"text":"案。"},{"start":5454.189,"end":5480.278,"text":"好 那我們繼續開會那我們先介紹有關於審查老人福利法出席的官員衛生福利部邱太元部長社會保險司劉玉娟司長法規會陳信成參事社家署簡惠娟署長中央健保署李承華副署長內政部移民署曹固齡副組長國家公園署張順發組長"},{"start":5483.264,"end":5508.769,"text":"農業部林業及自然保育署莊哲偉科長生物多樣性研究所研究員兼組長林旭鴻組長交通部公共運輸及監理司王基周檢任記政觀光署蔡宗昇副組長經濟部國營事業管理司黃旭輝專門委員水利署米亞儒科長"},{"start":5510.253,"end":5536.785,"text":"國軍退廚藝官兵輔導委員會事業管理處楊溫惠檢任繼政文化部綜合規劃司李世民專門委員行政院主計總處公務預算處廖玉琳專門委員教育部中生教育司紀賢揚專門委員好那我們現在進行老人福利法條文修正草案"},{"start":5537.315,"end":5541.108,"text":"案。繼期案之審查請委員表示意見。每位委員3分鐘。來請陳昭之委員。"},{"start":5550.56,"end":5578.565,"text":"大家好 有關民眾黨黨團提出來這個老人福利法補助這個綜合所得稅為打百分之二十的這個稅率的這個保險這個健保費補助問題那有執政黨說這個是藍白合作推出的錢坑法案這個是一個不實的這個訊息第一個事實上在去年大選期間柯主席他就率先提出這個政策但是他是基於在臺北市市政府說他已經在執行這樣政策而且"},{"start":5579.345,"end":5594.685,"text":"判決應該要一致推動到全國這個每一個地方就要做一個全國的基礎來做後來有其他黨的這個候選人也提出相互呼應的一個這個做法那健保署現在算出來的這個金額完全是用健保署從口袋前拿出來做補助為基礎這個是有問題的"},{"start":5597.588,"end":5606.033,"text":"現行有很多地方政府已經有補助這個未達百分之二十或百分之五長者的健保費這些錢事實上也是來自中央政府的統籌分配款或是專案的這個補助經費花的是同一筆錢只是說你這個編列這個預算機關是放在中央或地方政府"},{"start":5616.138,"end":5638.101,"text":"就是可以透過政府的財政收支規劃去處理的所以衛福部沒有告訴大家這個事實而說錢坑法案這個是不正確的第二個就是說目前的補助政策執政黨的縣市也是在做的包括高雄、台南但我手邊我就不一談其實六都都已經在做了那無論是百分之未達百分之五、百分之二十所以我希望說"},{"start":5639.282,"end":5653.954,"text":"判斷多少是可以好好來討論的,但是不能夠說居住在台灣的國人,因為你住在不同的直轄市或縣市而有差別待遇,這是完全違法這個憲法的平等原則。以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":5666.722,"end":5682.341,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位官員大家好我想今天在審查的現場我必須要說外界有人刻意在危言聳聽說健保費的補助會動之到健保的總額讓健保的點值資源變少影響我國的醫療品質"},{"start":5683.823,"end":5712.968,"text":"我想這個部分呢衛福部明明是可以澄清喔但卻沒有澄清讓這樣的假消息在打擊我們提出老人福利修法的國民黨跟民眾黨如果補助年滿65歲以上的國人會動之到健保的總額讓健保的點值資源變少影響我國醫療的品質的話我想我可以列舉出已經在做對65歲以上國人的法定補助措施通通都在健保法第27條裡面那當然我想"},{"start":5713.688,"end":5737.49,"text":"衛福部及社會社家署在5月30日晚間發布的新聞稿刻意其實就是要挑起行政跟立法的對立跟仇視社家署的新聞稿說以補助綜合所得稅合定稅率為達20%的老人人數的全額健保費為例推估113年大概需要359億元但是就算是不針對"},{"start":5738.331,"end":5755.325,"text":"案 中和所得稅和定稅率未達百分之二十的老人人數來補助經費。這些359億的費用裡所給予的對象已經很多都已經適用目前的這個補助的條件。也就是說這並不是一個零和359億的零和選擇。那我想這個部分"},{"start":5759.568,"end":5780.685,"text":"社家屬特別灌上最多金額來這個試圖黑化所以希望能夠是不是待會能夠告訴我們健保法第27條中各類給予65歲以上對象的補助費用已經有多少了未來還要增加多少我想這樣子的話才能夠真正的還原事實的真相讓我們希望為這個65歲以上的這個"},{"start":5783.767,"end":5806.032,"text":"老人能夠在全國各地都一個平權的概念讓他們不管在何地都可以享受到一樣的福利而不是因為身在不同地方而就不同的這個福利財源好的地方那這個六十五歲的老人就可以補助健保費可是財源不好的縣市他就沒有辦法這不符合這個全國平權的概念以上謝謝好來我們請楊耀委員"},{"start":5822.008,"end":5845.154,"text":"好,我們今天是不是部長上次審查的時候沒有到嗎?部長要不要上來說明一下剛剛徐理政委員提到的就是這一次如果放寬65歲以上的老人免健保費的話事實上65歲以上的老人原來你們已經給付多少然後要增加多少而不是把所有的總數都算在一起講一下那個數字我們請邱部長"},{"start":5852.347,"end":5871.074,"text":"那個剛剛習委員講的以及陳昭志委員講的都非常有道理我們怎麼樣照顧弱勢這是我們本來台灣國家要做的事情那怎麼樣在世代的一個正義或者是說"},{"start":5872.294,"end":5899.419,"text":"我們努力撐起了這個,結果是別人在負擔,而且這負擔的恐怕更慘。那這樣的話恐怕也是我們所擔心的。如果說財政都沒有問題,我想越多補助越好,包括我們剛剛周志偉提的柯市長能夠撥一些來補,其實每一個縣市的福利都相當的多,那有各式各樣的。"},{"start":5900.559,"end":5913.306,"text":"那這是要全國性的我們就必須要考慮到世代正義跟國家財政整個來看那如果以我剛剛徐委員提的這個部分我們預計如果20%以為了20%的"},{"start":5916.388,"end":5935.276,"text":"我們算出來是359億嘛。對。359億。啊這你可以補充?好。補充一下。跟委員報告因為目前的65歲以上適用所的稅率未達20%的大概有到2024年我們推估大概有362萬人"},{"start":5937.717,"end":5945.961,"text":"案。netesle等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。netesle等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":5953.605,"end":5974.152,"text":"案。 »: 三億左右。那這裡面原來已經在我們補助範圍的低收中低收的老人加起來我們2023年我們已經支付的全年大概是20億左右的錢。"},{"start":5974.952,"end":5992.291,"text":"目前國家中央加地方補起來大概是20億所以這個就算扣掉我們也還需要339億多這樣的一個經費的支出那這個只是社會局補助的"},{"start":5992.771,"end":6006.867,"text":"另外還有健保的那一塊因為這樣而引發的需要再增加大概5503億左右。我請社保司再補充一下。"},{"start":6010.284,"end":6029.763,"text":"報告各位委員那因為依照全民健康保險法的第三條其實我們政府必須要負擔保險費用36%意思就是說按照健保法第27條其實不同的類目的民眾他要負的保險費的時候我們政府也要負擔相當的一個就是比例的"},{"start":6030.603,"end":6042.729,"text":"這個保險費以後如果仍然不足按照第三條必須要負擔36%但是可在健保法的實行細則第45條有提到好那第45提到的呢"},{"start":6044.209,"end":6059.347,"text":"等下我把這個稍微念一下那提到就是說依照這個27條我們健保法就是政府已經負擔了民眾的相當的比例的這些基本的規定保險費以外呢如果與其他法律規定也要補助各類保險人的這些保險費"},{"start":6060.188,"end":6078.001,"text":"那其他法律就像這次如果訂定65歲以上的老人已經被列為其他法律規定的時候那政府就會把這樣的一個費用要做一個檢列那我們除了收到民眾的保險費以外政府負擔的保險費他會把它納到36%就不用再編列預算"},{"start":6079.122,"end":6098.002,"text":"那我在收這個保險費的時候我就會少掉也就是剛剛委員有在問說這是不是有算錯或者是說是不是在法律上的見解有問題其實我們拿到的保險費在36%的這個部分就會短收大概503億是用這個方式在做一個報告的以上謝謝"},{"start":6099.82,"end":6125.298,"text":"我稍微補充報告一下,現在我們努力的真的讓健保的歸健保,所以36%政府盡量不要用公務預算來算到這36%,不然的話我想健保的收入會不足、電池會一直不能提升這樣子,所以這個也要注意。健保署剛好要公開,已經完成齁。好,先以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":6127.028,"end":6130.089,"text":"楊瓊瓔等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。 »:"},{"start":6148.669,"end":6168.935,"text":"副總我請問一下就是用公務預算來支付其實是不會影響到健保的收入的對不對?如果按照健保法第三條因為就是健保其他政府要負擔36%那如果併入進去的話那就會變成我們這36的person就減掉所以卻會影響"},{"start":6176.277,"end":6198.277,"text":"所以因為我們現在是政府負擔政府負擔那補助各種那不足的部分要補到36那現在有另外一個這個老人這個補助那併到36的時候那原來36就不減高度36對不對就是這個36就會變減少了被減少 對被減少可是你增加進來的"},{"start":6201.891,"end":6228.103,"text":"只是收入的來源是從國人還是從公務預算?是不是這樣子講?就業服務法第三條如果進來算在第三條的時候就會實質上減收入因為現在政府補助了36的部分那一部分如果也算進來政府又補了這個東西結果36變成是沒有額外增加"},{"start":6232.816,"end":6251.476,"text":"怎麼會他還是一樣用公務預算補給你啊?對,但是如果他不併到第三條的這個36%那就沒問題,如果併到這裡面的話就會有問題。那不併可以不可以?按照私隱細則他一定併。"},{"start":6256.618,"end":6269.822,"text":"我是說不併在法制面能不能處理按照施行細則是他都併在裡頭因為法可以修施行細則更可以修"},{"start":6274.037,"end":6296.637,"text":"謝謝委員,適應細則是可以修的那這個適應細則在105年就曾經因為這樣修就是說其他的政府就是其他政府也是中央政府的一些相關法規規定如果訂進來比如說有這樣各式各樣補助都是補助保險費的話它都可以當作36%的一個來源之一那這樣子的話它就會被減劣反正我們在年底可以收到就是除了民眾保險費以外的這些政府應負擔的36%的費用"},{"start":6298.559,"end":6327.832,"text":"我就是因為這樣一直一直一直被扣掉以後我收到的實質的這個收入就會變減少所以在當時105年的時候那時候有把這個其他法律規定的這個費用是列在信息這45條那我們回到母法的第36條是因為有訂定我們政府在負擔我們所有的保費除了27條每一個個人的保費我應該負擔的比例以外那是為了因應個人的比如說百分之三十七十或是第五類福保的100%的部分以外呢"},{"start":6328.012,"end":6328.032,"text":"案。 »:"},{"start":6347.861,"end":6354.264,"text":"我其實只是把你們剛才講的問題釐清而已啦。我這邊講,我覺得我們現在由衛福部補助的對象確實是太..."},{"start":6364.51,"end":6378.036,"text":"說得太小齁,我們是70歲以上的中低收,我覺得應該65歲以上中低收就可以齁,那身心障礙的部分呢我也覺得應該要有"},{"start":6381.897,"end":6399.503,"text":"由衛福部來做補貼我覺得就是完全65歲以上全部由公務預算來補助我是覺得這個大家要慎思可是擴大補助的範圍這個是真正落實"},{"start":6408.649,"end":6427.562,"text":"若實照顧弱勢族群必須要做的也就是說我覺得你們現在全額補助的部分你們連身心障礙者的到中度你們才補助二分之一我覺得這個都應該要檢討那假如說"},{"start":6432.598,"end":6445.312,"text":"沒有關係部長跟署長你們聽就好了就是說我覺得現在全額補助的對象你們限縮的太少那假如說要擴大到全部65歲以上"},{"start":6448.223,"end":6456.872,"text":"我也承認各縣市政府對於各項福利政策因為選舉的關係所以各縣市都有各自不同不只是健保費的減免"},{"start":6470.393,"end":6492.581,"text":"像跟大家講一件彭吳的補助彭吳透過幾次選舉彭吳的65歲以上的老人是團五節、重陽節跟過年都各發五千塊所以我們"},{"start":6496.172,"end":6516.198,"text":"要比照用各地方政府來做比照我是覺得會有問題因為選舉的過程各黨各派的候選人相近提出牛肉政策"},{"start":6517.574,"end":6544.025,"text":"也就是說澎湖我大概再用大家兩分鐘的時間澎湖我算過光是老人65歲以上的老人領的年節禮金一年要3億澎湖的自主財源總共才6億那我們是不是也可以比照拿澎湖的來比照"},{"start":6545.638,"end":6565.309,"text":"所以我覺得我們就單純探討到底健保的制度下應該要保障哪一些人讓他減輕他的負擔我們已經在點值上面保障一塊錢"},{"start":6567.711,"end":6595.877,"text":"增加了一些支出必須要公務預算來補貼假如在沒有任何限制的情況下65歲以上又有公務預算來補貼這個會不會第一造成國家政策的困難第二破壞保險制度最主要的本質這個提供給委員會做參考謝謝"},{"start":6598.557,"end":6623.259,"text":"謝謝接下來請陳昭智委員因為剛剛主席有請這個社家屬衛福部來做一個報告但是我對這個數字是有疑慮的點是說你現在只計算那個中低收入戶的部分說減只是差了20億但事實上不是我當然沒有時間把它全部念完比如台北市現在就在已經在做這個數字20%的那新北"},{"start":6626.461,"end":6652.411,"text":"他有分類有5%以下的也是相當程度的照顧像台南65歲老人他涉及一年也在裡面的補助那這個部分已經目前在跑的錢你要一併扣掉啊就是說我們不是只要這個原始的中低收入就是說有個性是不均勻的在提供這些補助這個費用要重新要去計算那請問現在有沒有有沒有就是說我認為我個人認為300多億不是事實"},{"start":6655.572,"end":6678.97,"text":"案,不是大家花的目前的補助同一筆錢你要先把它扣除才知道說你要額外花多少錢我們要的是這個真相那最後可以來補助的話可以討論那不平不平等是是憲法上不平等是不該不對的那我對於這個所上次提出從300多億到700多億這個數字一直有疑慮是不是部長就是說您現在有資料嗎還是說怎麼樣提供給我們謝謝"},{"start":6682.433,"end":6711.634,"text":"是不是剛剛陳昭之委員講的我記得三次委員會開會的時候有請你們要整理就是現在六都還有各縣市政府已經在補助了那一些的金額是多少坦白六都是人口最多的那如果六都都已經施行其實是蠻多的絕對不會是你們剛剛講的20億你們只是算中低而已但是六都現在地方政府有些縣市已經在施行了包括離島他們都已經實施65歲以上老人"},{"start":6713.591,"end":6730.797,"text":"免自付健保費。這個部分的資料有沒有?先讓部長講一下有沒有資料?手上的資料跟大家報告一下。你們剛剛一直說359。剛剛算的20億應該是政府補助,不是縣市政府在補助。那縣市政府補助有沒有統計?有沒有齁?"},{"start":6736.294,"end":6761.823,"text":"不過因為縣市政府是縣市政府有時候他為了他特別的特性個別的城市各的考量可能不一定全國都一致的那我們要考慮的我還是要提醒一下如果我們的這些負擔如果是20%以下的那個稅率的老人好了"},{"start":6763.373,"end":6773.508,"text":"他平均的我們算起來平均的收入是15萬我們今天一個年輕人大學畢業現在的平均值只有37500結果37500的人要去承擔15萬"},{"start":6778.676,"end":6806.369,"text":"事務的這些老人這樣對這些年輕人恐怕也是非常大的壓力這個是我們最感染的地方那當然國家財政能夠多造福利我相信這都是所以地方政府現在到底多少部長沒回答問題我先跟委員報告一個數字這個是我們請健保署這邊跑出來的資料含所有地方政府在補的目前是133億"},{"start":6808.831,"end":6808.851,"text":"23億元"},{"start":6825.083,"end":6840.739,"text":"所有的含中低,然後還有臺北市,然後原民,55歲以上的原民,所有的目前在補助的大概佔三分之一"},{"start":6842.133,"end":6855.428,"text":"結果老人大概三分之一我們是用社會局的補助的區塊就是算社會福利的中低收老人2.5倍以下的"},{"start":6857.377,"end":6884.708,"text":"我們另外也擔心齁,這些到處的公務預算有一個補助,到最後都算到36%的健保費,那搞不好現在健保費我拿完蛋了這樣子齁。現在我們都努力在36%的政府要給健保36%一定要清除掉所有的公務預算,問題是現在的細則是他都幫你算進去。所以你補助公務預算越多,你說你的健保"},{"start":6886.088,"end":6914.034,"text":"案的費用會越少,這恐怕也會造成醫療體系很大的一個衝擊。謝謝。好,其實他是總而不變,是你們算法的問題。來接下來我們請劉建國委員發言。黃秀芳委員要不要先讓劉建國委員發言?他好像急著要發言。好啦,那就按照順序,黃秀芳委員、蘇清泉委員再來劉建國委員。"},{"start":6916.698,"end":6945.194,"text":"好 謝謝主席我記得上一次在委員會我有特別提到就是說我們現在針對那個中低低收中低收是70歲以上是全部都有我們那個中央這邊來支付那我是不是我上一次也有特別提到其實我認為我們更需要照顧這些需要被照顧的人因為確實如果是低收或中低收的話"},{"start":6945.674,"end":6965.186,"text":"案。 »: 其實這個真的經濟的壓力也很大那如果政府可以來協助的話我覺得算是也幫助這些這個長輩那我建議就是說是不是可以再把年齡往下降就原本是70歲以上那是不是可以就是針對低收中低收就是調到65歲65歲以上"},{"start":6969.574,"end":6996.193,"text":"那另外就是說就是說我們確實如果說全部65歲以上如果是按照我剛剛拿到這個資料就是說在2024年可能65歲以上的這個老人人口數就436萬嘛那全部如果說由政府來支付以這個六類的話可能就是全部是這個391億"},{"start":6999.537,"end":7021.306,"text":"那391億這個是這個是還要包含就是還要包含那個原本就是這個是政府補助那另外就是健保的那個部分是不是也會短收就是說除了加除了這個391億之外那是不是還在加一個是健保原本是那個36%的那個部分是這個還在加進去嗎是嗎"},{"start":7027.75,"end":7041.859,"text":"合格是哈對那如果是這樣子的話會不會變成全部就是如果加起來的話將近就是800億如果是如果是全部政府的話那會不會排擠到其他的"},{"start":7043.11,"end":7069.647,"text":"預算其實我覺得這個真的要確實要真的非常仔細去考量好那我還是要重申就是我們應該是要照顧這些最需要照顧的人就是低收或中低收那如果說原本是70歲我是覺得說65歲甚至60歲以上我都覺得可以考慮就是說如果他是低收或中低收的話好以上謝謝"},{"start":7087.323,"end":7097.392,"text":"主席還有美修部長還有我們所有的列席官員同仁大家午安我們老人福利法65歲以上不要繳健保費這個是"},{"start":7099.981,"end":7126.431,"text":"勞有所依、所養的愛民精神我2022選縣長這也是我的政見各縣市的財政狀況不同但是六都大部分都納入了其六都以外的不能這樣不平等台北市、新北市及台中市比較高級"},{"start":7127.819,"end":7136.53,"text":"我們苗栗、我們屏東是二等國民所以你講這個什麼什麼不同意我沒辦法接受啦"},{"start":7137.734,"end":7157.213,"text":"那65歲以上的人,你說一年要350幾億,六都以外,六都以外剩下多少人?人口最多的是彰化縣,再來就是屏東縣。我讓所有算,算一算,屏東一年要20幾億,20幾億我拿去考考的,有些我們農民的,什麼都考考,全十幾億而已。"},{"start":7160.629,"end":7174.89,"text":"平均擬具十幾人擬具你台灣這六度以外要三百多個在亂講你們這怎麼算的陳昭之委員剛才也說你們都亂算一條所以算好全策不要互攏互攏這個委員大家現在都很認真"},{"start":7176.482,"end":7200.011,"text":"那六十五歲國人健保會全額補助不同的待遇不同的縣市那六都就是比較高尚的人我們是不平等這我沒辦法接受這一點那我們全民健保現在已經是全民納保強制納保百分之九十九點九都納保了所以我們這個是很好的指標啦"},{"start":7200.811,"end":7206.676,"text":"那我們國家發展委員會有推估,2026老人要高達20幾%屏東縣現在已經20%了,不定,現在已經20%了所以從來到現在70個醫生,我們知道,秀香姐說"},{"start":7224.317,"end":7242.742,"text":"他講七十歲他也沒辦法接受要給六五所以我才幫你報告各縣市的補助政策一定要一致性那至於剛剛在講的你的所得我們現在所得稅是5%、12%、20%、30%、40%"},{"start":7247.199,"end":7257.409,"text":"那如果20%用 guideline的話,如果要往下拉一點,我想這個可以討論,這樣就比較少,就減少了。所以部長你剛才說的20%,這點我可以討論,看是否12%還是幾%。"},{"start":7267.362,"end":7291.426,"text":"當然不能說讓年輕人有被剝奪的感覺所以這個是我在這邊要跟大家報告另外也有牌付條款等等所以不像你想的那樣要花這麼多錢我剛才給他算了100萬就有了所以不要把事情看得那麼嚴重我們一心一意為百姓尤其是你看剛才楊耀貢他如果做館長要發一萬"},{"start":7299.479,"end":7315.164,"text":"一、三節各一萬啊。這樣可以嗎?所以,朋友就很有氣配,我們在民眾也比較有氣配。所以,照顧變成是我們的精神啦。以上。謝謝蘇清泉委員。接下來我們請劉建國委員。OK啦,謝謝主席。"},{"start":7330.054,"end":7357.268,"text":"青泉兄委員剛才講的齁部分基本上我是認可不過他的算數似乎大家再思考一下齁他說屏東縣就需要他計算之後是十幾億嘛齁那台灣全國應該是22個縣市嘛齁六都一瓦嘛齁啊六都一瓦也16對不對六都嘛22扣六都嘛就16嘛對不對對嘛"},{"start":7362.496,"end":7382.511,"text":"對啦,你可以這麼講啦,你可以這麼講,但是如果說一個屏東就十幾來億啦先把六都算進去,怎麼算都是三百多億嘛,因為我們現在是講全國要一致嘛所以這個算完應該不為過嘛,10億就兩百二十億了嘛15億就三百七十幾億了嘛,這應該是這樣嘛,我們現在是要說全國啊,要區域一致嘛"},{"start":7387.574,"end":7416.386,"text":"我在這邊也要特別就請部長因為部長我們過去同事現在是貴為衛福部的部長你的高度跟思維是跟以前絕對會不一樣當人口老化臺灣邁入到明年就邁入到這個超高齡社會就所有的65歲的人數是佔總人口人數的20%其實我覺得是可能今年年底就達標了不一定要到2025我想這樣的速度之快"},{"start":7416.766,"end":7438.488,"text":"案 人呃呃老了這個65歲的人數的這樣的一個增長的有時候是我們很難去預估到了嗎應該是10年前是2026了講是2026到3年前就變成在在提早一年嗎那現在有可能是建議年底又達標所以這個人數是往上一直在一直在增加的而且速度是非常快的"},{"start":7439.088,"end":7457.733,"text":"那衛務部當然要做這樣詳細的這個相關的這樣的一個各個面向去做研議啦那原本我們中央市就已經有針對全國年滿70歲以上的中低老在還有相關的福保都是由中央來做這樣的一個負擔來做處理"},{"start":7460.151,"end":7488.28,"text":"那當然各縣市陳鲁甘仔、楊委員所講的包含青玄松所講的到競選縣長所提出來這個相關的政見的過程裡面都希望可以對65歲以上的長輩有更多的照顧對這樣的家庭可以減輕更多的負擔這絕對是正面的啦他們的思維中央也一樣要有這樣的思維嘛但是在中央還沒有具備這樣的條件之下其實各縣市尤其六都已經先做了嘛"},{"start":7488.76,"end":7510.983,"text":"但是六度在做的時候也沒有一致性有的是綜合所得率5%以下有的是綜合所得率20%以下然後其他的一般縣市也有在做65歲我們是70歲他們是65歲以上的中低勞就由地方政府自行去做這樣負擔那全國搞了這樣"},{"start":7512.543,"end":7521.552,"text":"委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案案件事宜及衛生環境委員會第四十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":7534.461,"end":7562.444,"text":"事為大眾及各縣市的期待但我現在用另外一個角度去做思考就剛剛楊瓓瓏特別提到他說他們澎湖真的是蠻不錯的他今天在這邊講這些話可能很多人戶籍會遷到澎湖去我不曉得他們能不能夠概括承受就他們有三節的敬老慰問金一節五千三節就一萬五而且不只澎湖縣我記得不曉得是主要縣市忘記了哪一個縣市它是每個月三千"},{"start":7564.511,"end":7576.918,"text":"每個月三千那我們的相關的社會福利只可以折一嘛所以他也很厲害他以前是每個月發每個月發放最後最後他是一次性就發放"},{"start":7578.148,"end":7578.708,"text":"案件都可以去尋找得到。"},{"start":7603.803,"end":7629.926,"text":"那我今天必須要去提到就是說這個大方向基本上不會有問題我也要全力去支持啦但是當中央還沒有從65歲開始做處理的時候各縣市已經有這樣的能力去做處理了所以部長可能就是要跟行政院來做這樣的一個討論當各地方政府有能力做到這樣那中央怎麼可以沒有能力做到這樣"},{"start":7631.533,"end":7640.782,"text":"我講這個思維就是從中央在對地方的統籌分配稅款和相關的補助過程裡面可能那個試算必須要重新做檢視了啦重新做檢視了"},{"start":7644.295,"end":7668.113,"text":"因為我們要因應超高齡的社會來臨啦這樣的需求你絕對往上一而再再而三姑且啦齁如果說要去做批判就是說過度的加碼我不會講這種話我就覺得說這原本就會一直往上提高的這樣的需求然而各縣市已經在做就剛剛跟部長跟各位都說明的65歲六都"},{"start":7669.747,"end":7671.249,"text":"就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":7682.892,"end":7707.745,"text":"同樣的65歲的長輩在這個縣市、在這個六都、在另外一個直轄市,所以這個叫差別待遇啦。白白繳稅金啦,啊來賺這罐錢就這樣賺那罐錢就這樣。這給台灣人去做相關的這罐的批評其實也不好啦。所以中央就是要承擔起這樣責任。那另外一點,四大啦齁,除了年輕人,稅金也比較高。"},{"start":7708.888,"end":7714.715,"text":"若有法律的話,若倒下去才有機會,不用再繳稅金,不是說65歲以後你就不用繳稅,你什麼挖國稅,他簽過65歲,他一樣是要繳。"},{"start":7721.758,"end":7743.935,"text":"他不是免費的。房屋稅、地基稅,他好像不是這麼高啊。好,他享有健保免於支付這相關的費用的情況之下,我覺得我們確實可以朝這個方向去做思考。但是,我是要提到一點嘛,當地方的自主裁員允許情況之下,他先走也不為過啦。"},{"start":7745.95,"end":7752.754,"text":"他先走不為過他如果走的像這個有20%的我覺得衛生部你就該獎勵啊行政院你就該獎勵啊他幫你專門減輕相關的負擔啊"},{"start":7758.155,"end":7779.188,"text":"當現在還沒有走的當然沒有辦法去懲罰嘛但是你在酌情的情況之下在做相關的統籌還有試算的時候你就必須要有一套標準來應變這事情不然今天健保會明天可能又另外一個會用只要過65歲你中央就必須要去做應變去做處理"},{"start":7779.929,"end":7803.999,"text":"但是我覺得說當有很多縣市人家六都為什麼可以走了而六都的財源比較足我跟各位報告現在房地產景氣各位都非常清楚中央一直在打房打打打打打到各位可以看到所有的建築還是淋漓滿目雨後春筍當房屋稅地價稅地方在超徵的過程情況之下"},{"start":7805.998,"end":7832.791,"text":"應該都有足夠人力暫時性來做這樣的一個處理啦所以血腥處理我覺得你中央就應該去獎勵正在這個過程裡面趕快去做盤整趕快去做整個這樣的一個規劃我覺得部長有機會可以把這樣的重責大任承擔起來我覺得這個方向是可以被大家討論的也可以從這個方向來做出發啦好不好好謝謝謝謝劉建國委員接下來我們請黃建豪委員"},{"start":7843.427,"end":7865.235,"text":"好 謝謝我們主席我想今天討論這個健保補助的部分我想先講幾個事實我實在是希望討論一下我們還是要基於一些數字跟事實因為這個剛剛我們部長提到這個300多億我好奇說他是這個算法到底是用多少人口算出來的因為如果是現階段65歲以上的人口大概400多萬人436萬人"},{"start":7867.277,"end":7888.733,"text":"案,436萬人,算下來每個月落800多塊,然後乘以一年,的確差不多就是300多億。所以你是不是用全部的人口算出來的結果是300多億,我在好奇這個數字怎麼算出來的。但是明明大家提出的修法版本並不是全部要補助啊。大家提出來的修法版本是針對一定級距以下才有補助。所以到底一定級距以下在全台灣有多少的人口"},{"start":7889.573,"end":7910.673,"text":"一年到底多少錢,這個我們是希望有一個具體的數字,我們這個討論才能延續下去,要不然部長你說一個數字,我們委員們又說不同的數字,那雙方就很難有交集,但到底那個數字怎麼出來的,雙方我們都沒有這個概念,那這個討論我覺得就是會比較可惜一點。再來剛剛也提到所謂的65歲以上20%以下年收入的問題,第一個,"},{"start":7913.916,"end":7916.878,"text":"兩人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案：立法院第四十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":7933.012,"end":7951.347,"text":"案。netesa等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。netesa等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。netesa等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。netesa等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。netesa等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。netesa等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。netesa等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。netesa等25人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條條文修正"},{"start":7961.675,"end":7979.409,"text":"這個我覺得不用特別去強調這種什麼世代的問題不要說好像年輕人要養老養長輩這個問題因為第一個問題就是說這些長輩他本來就還是有在繳稅那第二個現實的社會面上他們本來就還有還是有在幫自己爸媽繳這個健保這是這個是這個是這個食物面的問題那再來提到一些精神上"},{"start":7980.765,"end":8005.503,"text":"全民健保也好或老人福利法也好一開始的目的都是希望是做全民那針對所有的長輩要來做照顧所以今天提出這個修法最核心的目標是要維護所謂的老人福利法的第一條立法意旨就是要維護老人尊嚴跟健康延緩老人失能安定老人生活保障老人權利增進老人福利所以才制定本法這是老人福利法第一章寫的"},{"start":8006.303,"end":8019.571,"text":"那我們今天提出這個相關修法其實也是在針對這件事情我們希望能夠落實因為既然高齡化社會即將要來臨那這個社會福利的問題我們的確要趕快來面對如果說衛福部對20%或對多少的計算基準"},{"start":8021.992,"end":8047.33,"text":"有意見有想法我覺得可以提出來但是我還是要講那個數字要很明確不能說部長講一個數字然後我們其他單位講一個數字委員講一個數字那這個人口基數完全計算標準不一樣的情況下面我們根本算不出來到底要多少錢才是合理的狀態所以以上提供這些想法給大家我們希望說這個法令還是要能夠順利的這個往這方向來推動讓我國65歲以上這些長輩他們能夠"},{"start":8049.531,"end":8059.617,"text":"在老年生活中真的享有這個安定穩定的社會福利不用擔心這個不用有後顧之憂以上謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請張家俊委員"},{"start":8075.429,"end":8099.943,"text":"過去八年政府因為政策綁裝或者是錯誤的政策預算都是幾千億的在花世代正義這個議題我非常認同但是世代正義不能輸一套做一套新生嬰兒青年學子老人嬰法是國家最需要照顧的三個族群但過去八年來其實我們沒有好好的照顧他們"},{"start":8100.703,"end":8121.6,"text":"出生率屢創新低人民的平均壽命從領先韓國到落後韓國所以呢本席主張這些錢呢應該要用在對的地方照顧更多的人那本席的提案就是要落實世代正義把錢用在對的地方用在需要的地方"},{"start":8122.321,"end":8141.103,"text":"一、我們提出的這個老人福利法第22條的修正草案有三個非常重要的點第一點就是公平原則現在六都都各自有不同65歲以上的長者補助都是以地方經費來補助但六都以外"},{"start":8141.944,"end":8156.711,"text":"財政比較困難的縣市就很難去做到這讓台灣不同縣市的長者有差別待遇所以我們的提案首先追求的是公平原則那第二條是排富條款"},{"start":8157.831,"end":8166.861,"text":"案,經過牌覆之後才補助65歲以上的長者,那牌覆大家有不同的這個認定喔,有人提5%,有人提12%,那本席提的是20%,我覺得這的確是可以開放討論的,可以有空間大家仔細的來討論。"},{"start":8176.732,"end":8193.66,"text":"案,事態公平對於經濟比較弱勢的65歲以上的族群補助,某種程度上來說是在減輕年輕親屬的負擔。那這個石崇良署長所說的一隻耳拔兩次毛的說法我不認同。"},{"start":8194.46,"end":8219.816,"text":"因為現在的狀況是有一些額要拔毛有一些額不用拔毛所以現在政府要做的是要妥善利用稅收讓大家都能夠得到公平的待遇那目前有說一個數字說是400億說健保會短收400億這是一個不實的數字因為現行的各類社福補助地方政府自行補助就有220億那"},{"start":8221.937,"end":8239.088,"text":"案 民眾的支出大概是180億那我覺得說這樣子的說法呢會刻意的造謠製造世代對立是非常的不妥當那包括說衛福部現在要研議的第六類健保補助也編列了100億假設這180億扣掉100億也只剩下80億那另外"},{"start":8246.052,"end":8257.275,"text":"案,65歲以上以眷屬身份投保的有多少人?根據111年的全民健保統計接近200萬人,有198萬人,那65歲以上總投保的人數只有400萬人,那所以說將近五成的"},{"start":8268.158,"end":8268.178,"text":"案。"},{"start":8313.891,"end":8317.795,"text":"我本席支持老人福利可是我認為要理性"},{"start":8319.412,"end":8340.243,"text":"案。而65歲以上的老人並不等於事實上是貧窮。若根據民國111年的數據來看的話,65歲以上所得收入者人數佔總數的26.68%,那意味著社會上有四分之一的財富在65歲以上的人手上。另外,"},{"start":8340.723,"end":8357.163,"text":"判決人數是55至64歲人手上,10年後65歲以上的人口將掌握到48%以上的財富。所以我們今天所談論的老人不是刻板印象裡的衰弱貧窮孤獨的老人,"},{"start":8357.659,"end":8374.074,"text":"而是近代歷史上我們最受優勢的所謂戰後嬰兒潮的高齡化的這些人那這群人裡邊因為如果剛剛講的這樣的收入來看的話所以我們本席還是認為應該考慮到所謂世代爭議的問題因為畢竟我們未來大概15到64歲工作的人口佔67%負擔會在這些人身上的話"},{"start":8382.581,"end":8383.082,"text":"案。厲 余楊"},{"start":8398.951,"end":8405.935,"text":"案。 bicylaine Lambert等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。 bicylaine Lambert等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":8423.812,"end":8444.483,"text":"身障跟老人一定是被照顧的誰最沒被照顧就是我們的青少年我覺得這怎麼沒有世代正義的問題那一樣地方在花的時候我也很擔心的像現在剛剛講的那些地方已經在執行的是不是也是擠壓到像當初過去兒童福利法的時代少年福利法"},{"start":8445.163,"end":8449.305,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項議員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案件事項"},{"start":8466.551,"end":8495.855,"text":"限制在有一些要件來貼補不是不同意就像我們秀芳委員講的要照顧需要照顧的人可是如果全面要開放的話那本席非常不贊成因為這些錢有可能對於拿到那個健保800多塊的人他可能沒有感覺可是整個財政支出很多的時候大家就會影響到而且在財政紀律的考慮下本席認為如果要把地方的福利轉為中央支出要做精算"},{"start":8496.315,"end":8524.518,"text":"的確剛剛陳昭芝委員講說如果有些地方沒有辦法財政沒辦法的時候有沒有次等公民的狀態可是如果統一的話如果中央要來補助的話那可能要去考慮到我剛剛講要一個門檻限制不是全面開放以外可能還要去考慮如果每一個地方全部都有中央大家的福利都一樣那就穿制服一樣如果穿制服的話我不知道選縣市首長的人到底怎麼去開除他的"},{"start":8524.958,"end":8551.211,"text":"那時候他所謂的扭肉所以我覺得這也要考慮所以中央做精算以外真的要考慮到到底對其他的社福政策產生多大的排斥這也是部長你們要去精算出來假設最後還是排斥到我們的下一代我真的是不太贊成因為青少年青少年福利常常都是被優先排擠的對象這個要考量以上接下來請王正旭委員"},{"start":8570.801,"end":8589.647,"text":"謝謝主席、各位委員。針對這個部分,我個人也真的有一些感受。因為如果按照年齡的話,我也是可以符合這個條款。不過我個人也是這樣覺得,為什麼剛剛建國委員提到,不是5%就20%?"},{"start":8591.288,"end":8591.308,"text":"案 。"},{"start":8608.436,"end":8627.734,"text":"這個就是我們不知道這個數據的來源為什麼當初會這樣設定這個真的大家要重新來了解看看因為我們做事情希望有一個好的根據好的數據那我們也希望他的背景他的來源會是什麼所以如果說對於我們要尊敬"},{"start":8628.815,"end":8641.146,"text":"章者而且也希望把該有的費用都能夠對我們需要照顧的長者得到最好的處置的話我個人認為還是需要有一些數據來支撐會是比較適當"},{"start":8644.429,"end":8645.57,"text":"桑吉娜等19人擬具桑吉娜等19人擬具桑吉娜等19人擬具"},{"start":8669.961,"end":8694.334,"text":"我們如果要修法我們希望這個法的修訂是很符合台灣的現況的同時也能夠把該有的費用做適度的處置那我認為建國委員講得非常好如果未來中央需要配合地方整個行政的流程更一致的話那很多前瞻性的思考模式必須要把它列進來以上"},{"start":8697.605,"end":8713.091,"text":"好 謝謝那委員都已經發言完畢是不是我們就來處理這個議案好不好其實上次也已經討論過是因為部長不在尊重部長所以今天再繼續審查對那我們就做以下決議"},{"start":8714.369,"end":8727.863,"text":"老人福利法條文修正草案暨七案審查完略條文均保留並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論本案時由王昭吉委員欲明補充說明是否需交由黨團協商好那交由黨團協商本次會議到此結束散會"},{"start":8742.857,"end":8743.358,"text":"判決議案判決議案"},{"start":8758.557,"end":8776.304,"text":"案。閱讀委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。閱讀委員楊瓊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。閱讀委員楊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。閱讀委員楊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案。閱讀委員楊瓔等26人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正"},{"start":8781.006,"end":8790.194,"text":"案,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案 案,其中一人擬具:「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案"}]}},{"id":"153911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba047166f46e601c99a79c37d5c63265337f0c311de3a91f94835afc5b0a4ba0bcf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:25:53 - 09:36:26","影片長度":"00:10:33","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:25:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:36:26+08:00","duration":633,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":134,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時26分）主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：陳部長早安。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員嘉郡：早，請問部長，有關外國進口的長效乳，不應該稱之為鮮乳，本席在4月11日就曾經要求農業部應向食藥署說明，這些保存期限兩個月，甚至三個月的進口牛乳，不應該叫做鮮乳，那個時候陳部長也同意要發文，您記得嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["張委員嘉郡：結果食藥署在這個月5日的時候發出了預告，我覺得他們是陷你於不義啊！食藥署說他們依照農業部的建議，要幫這些進口乳品標示為長效鮮乳或者是ESL鮮乳、延長保存期限的鮮乳，這些顯然跟當時的建議不符。部長，這是你們的發文有問題，還是食藥署對於公文的理解有問題，問題出在哪裡，可不可以說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個跟委員說明的是，名稱的部分是衛福部的權責，農業部的確是如委員所掌握的公文裡面，我們是明確的建議用長效乳這個名稱，而衛福部有它的一個委員會或是相關專案會議的建議，非常重要的就是，它現在是法案的預告期，這個預告期任何人都可以提供意見，農業部也會再一次提供我們的意見，因為我們的意見也跟我們酪農都有討論過，所以農業部會持續地去跟衛福部溝通，希望能夠用長效乳這樣的一個名稱，因為它是市場區隔一個非常重要的手段。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，部長，我覺得您說這番話，我非常的贊同，因為很多酪農對於生計都非常的擔憂，你知道嗎？我不能理解的是，為什麼你要讓它有兩個選擇呢？你是把它做智力測驗嗎？為什麼要給它有選擇可以用到鮮乳呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在提供這樣的一個名稱時，我們有召開專家會議，包括酪農，當初討論的兩個方案，我們是忠於當初討論的這些方案，我們提供它做參考。但是重要的是我們的建議是什麼，我們也寫下來了。"],["張委員嘉郡：我可不可以拜託部長，請部長是不是儘速再發文給衛福部？明確的寫請它不要用「鮮乳」這個字眼，直接寫「長效乳」，因為長效鮮乳誤導消費者的空間還是非常的大。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們新政府本身在部會之間就有一個非常好的溝通管道，絕對不是只有公文來公文去，所以我們也已經持續在跟衛福部做一個有效的溝通，我們希望的是，因為現在在法規……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以部長有信心衛福部會把鮮乳這個「鮮」字拿掉嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們用最大的努力，然後我們也用最大的量能去做一個溝通，我相信我們的溝通應該會得到……"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得衛福部堅持的點在哪裡呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想他們的堅持有他們另外專業的考量，因為我並沒有參加相關的討論會議，但是我們會做最大的溝通。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，本席在這裡呼籲，因為保護農民、保護酪農是你的天職，所以請部長一定要落實這件事情，一定要強烈的去呼籲，因為假設我是酪農，我光看這個文，我心裡想：哎呀！其實農業部好像也沒有很支持我們嘛！它還給它選擇，給它A案跟B案、甲案跟乙案選擇，然後後面才只有一個小小的字「優先採用乙案評估辦理」，我覺得這樣子對酪農來說是不足的，我希望農業部的態度可以更堅定，可以堅定的說不要用「鮮乳」這個字來欺負我們臺灣的酪農，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：農業部的立場一定是站在酪農的角度去思考，所以我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：但你這個文沒有啊！你這個文沒有站在酪農的角度去思考。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我剛才已經說明了，我們這甲、乙兩案是針對會議本身的結論，我們不能隨便修改。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是本席跟所有的酪農，我們都希望看到農業部更堅定的立場，堅定支持臺灣鮮乳的立場，能夠把長效乳就直接標長效乳，不要標長效鮮乳。","另外，連續下雨，雲林縣受影響很大，部長知道溼度高的稻米，今年的價格很差，不只雲林縣，甚至嘉義縣市都是一樣，你知道現在每公斤多少錢嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：應該每百臺斤大概900、950、930左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，相比去年，這是大大的降了，大大降了超過10%以上，雲林縣大概有兩百公頃以上的稻田都倒了，但未達天然災害救助辦法，很多農民擔心這個會越來越嚴重，因為倒了就沒有人願割，甚至青割價格非常的差，那農民真的很兩難。對於農民這樣的無奈，請問部長可以怎麼幫助他們呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，今年的稻穀價格比較低，有一個非常大的原因就是我們今年本身暫停了大區輪作，所以我們一期作的面積足足增加了將近2萬公頃，這也就是我常常說的，當你面積變多的時候……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在問你的是有關於倒伏的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：目前水稻的部分，我們有所謂的農業保險，農業保險的部分如果他有損失的時候，最後農業保險一定可以理賠……"],["張委員嘉郡：一定可以理賠，這是你說的喔！"],["陳部長駿季：就是達到20%的時候就一定可以理賠。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，但是這20%是怎麼計算的？是個人的20%，還是全鄉的20%？"],["陳部長駿季：是整個區域的產量。"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是問題所在啊！因為它降雨量不會這麼平均，可能有些區域就是降雨量比較高，它的倒伏就是比較嚴重，你用整個鄉下去算，很多農民其實已經明顯達到他種植的20%以上，但你一定要用區域下去算，每個農民的感受跟收益不一樣，這個農業部打算怎麼處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我想委員可能有一些誤解，水稻倒伏並不一定就不能收，產量也不一定會減少，所以相對地，如果你在不到收穫期時候的倒伏，它後續還可以挺起來，所以要看它的時間點，這個部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：目前它已經倒得非常嚴重了呀！"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是相對地，倒伏的過程如果是接近收成的時候，它還是可以收割。"],["張委員嘉郡：是還可以收割，但是價格不好啊！所以這就不符合保險了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所以這就是我剛才講的，價格……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以本席建議，整體未達天然災害標準，農業部是不是可以提出第一期稻米因為天災而損失的部分？農業部是不是可以提出一個辦法，怎麼樣幫助他們？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們現在對於整個稻作，如果受到天然災害已經有很明確天然災害救助的辦法……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有達到的這些人，其實也很嚴重，不是只有……你要用整個鄉下去算，我真的覺得不大合理。另外我想農業部應該是最能夠理解農民辛勞的部會，長期曝露在高風險的環境之下工作，現在本席要提的就是，有很多熱傷害，甚至有很多農民到了田裡去務農的時候，他可能因為心肌梗塞，然後倒在田裡過世了，但是這是領不到農民職災保險的，你知道為什麼嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：他如果有直接關係……"],["張委員嘉郡：因為農民職災保險沒有審查辦法，它沒有把心血管疾病納在這個辦法裡面。部長知道一般的勞工如果遇到這個情況會怎麼處理嗎？針對勞工部分，職安署有訂定對於勞工職業促發腦血管及心臟疾病（外傷導致者除外）之認定參考指引，但是農業部沒有，所以本席希望農業部是不是……現在都已經從農委會升級成農業部了，是不是應該仿效勞工的保障，制定一個類似的參考指引，來針對農民的保障，對於這個部分部長是否認同？"],["陳部長駿季：我想委員可能有一點誤解，其實我們的認定是只要他去看醫生，有醫生專業認定，我們就同意。"],["張委員嘉郡：他都死在田裡了！"],["陳部長駿季：他後續到醫院的時候，只要醫院認定就可以……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，問題是現在醫生沒辦法認定。就是因為醫生沒辦法認定，所以需要一個指引讓醫生去認定。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，現在醫生本身……"],["張委員嘉郡：他沒辦法認定，因為非常多的醫生沒有辦法開「因為從事農務而死亡」的證明，他沒有辦法開，因為你沒有指引。"],["陳部長駿季：如果他的死亡……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你要在這裡跟我狡辯嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有狡辯啊！我想……"],["張委員嘉郡：你只是須要定一個清楚的指引，讓醫生可以有所依據，這樣你做不到嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在已經有請所有相關的執業專業醫師在做相關的指引。"],["張委員嘉郡：你沒有給他指引啊！你願不願意給他們指引？"],["陳部長駿季：我願意，而且我們現在已經有在做了。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，那就好好地把它做好。"],["陳部長駿季：現在的情況是它比指引還寬鬆，只要專業醫師認定就可以了。"],["張委員嘉郡：就是希望你可以儘速定一個指引，如果部長有相關的資料，請送本委員會，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請就這樣的案子，農業部要跟保險公司去釐清楚，因為任何一個醫師不可能給你開，因為他沒在現場，他怎麼幫你開「因耕作死亡」？沒辦法！但有一個辦法，他是在農地上倒下，可以有證據，所以可能要和保險公司溝通一下。好，請跟保險公司說明清楚，他如果是倒在那裡的，當然是在那邊工作啊，對不對？","好，謝謝，接下來我們請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","羅廷瑋","黃國昌","黃秀芳","陳超明","徐富癸","邱志偉","洪孟楷","林岱樺"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案；二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬\n具「植物診療師法草案」案；三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案","agenda_id":"1136201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.185343750000001,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.872843750000001,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.98596875,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.812843750000003,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.94409375,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.66971875,"end":44.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.31096875,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.81721875,"end":77.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.72346875000001,"end":86.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.75159375000001,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.75034375,"end":122.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.49284375,"end":126.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.49221875,"end":145.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.06721875,"end":162.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.72284375,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.99284375000002,"end":163.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.72659375,"end":165.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.03034375000001,"end":186.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.34784375,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.19784375,"end":205.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.24784375000002,"end":213.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.06534375,"end":214.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.32221875000002,"end":217.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.63409375,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.35471875000002,"end":224.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.48096875000002,"end":225.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.71721875,"end":252.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.83534375000002,"end":269.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.26721875000004,"end":270.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.28409375,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.30096875000004,"end":275.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.28346875,"end":278.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.57846875,"end":276.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.75971875,"end":284.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.77596875,"end":314.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.47971875,"end":319.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.00221875,"end":331.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.79346875000005,"end":348.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.58409375,"end":354.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.16534375000003,"end":364.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.75909375000003,"end":368.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.16784375000003,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.08659375,"end":375.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.03534375000004,"end":377.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.43159375000005,"end":380.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.14034375,"end":384.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.97534375000004,"end":392.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.84409375,"end":386.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.71659375,"end":394.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.33659375,"end":397.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.44971875000005,"end":418.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.33721875000003,"end":425.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.41159375,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.25409375000004,"end":437.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.24534375,"end":442.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.20659375,"end":442.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.24034375,"end":459.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.88971875000004,"end":447.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.84284375000004,"end":448.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.95909375,"end":466.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.94971875000005,"end":472.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.18909375000004,"end":511.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.60909375,"end":554.47596875},{"spea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unintendation to the committee or the relevant expert meeting."},{"start":97.696,"end":122.177,"text":"那非常重要就是說他現在是法案的一個預告期那這個預告期的部分任何人都可以提供意見那農業部也會再次的提供我們的意見因為我們的意見我們也跟我們的弱農都有討論過所以農業部會持續的去跟衛生部溝通希望能夠用長效乳這樣的一個名稱因為它是一個市場區隔的一個非常重要的一個手段"},{"start":122.517,"end":145.652,"text":"是,部長我覺得您說這番話呢我非常的贊同因為呢很多酪農喔這些生技喔都非常的擔憂你知道嗎上一頁我要上一頁上一頁你我不能理解的是為什麼你要讓他有兩個選擇呢你是在把他做這個智力測驗嗎為什麼要給他有選擇說可以用到鮮乳呢"},{"start":146.272,"end":161.744,"text":" 我想我們在提供這樣的一個名稱的時候我們有召開了專家會議包括洛農那當初討論的兩個方案那我們是終於整個的當初討論的這些方案裡面我們提供他做參考"},{"start":163.005,"end":166.288,"text":"但是重要的是我們的建議是什麼,我們有寫下來了。那我可不可以拜託這個部長,請部長是不是盡速地再發文給衛福部,請他就明確地寫說不要用鮮乳這個字眼,直接寫長效乳,因為你長效鮮乳誤導消費者的空間還是非常的大。"},{"start":186.648,"end":205.326,"text":"我跟委員說明齁就是我們新政府本身在部會之間就有一個非常好的溝通的管道那公文絕對不是只有公文來公文去所以我們也持續已經持續的在跟衛福部在做一個有效的溝通那我們希望說因為現在的法規﹖所以部長有信心衛福部會把先辱這個先字拿掉嗎?我們"},{"start":206.067,"end":225.794,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":225.794,"end":252.173,"text":" bicy 本席在這裡呼籲啊因為保護農民保護落農是你的天職所以請部長一定要落實這件事情一定要強烈的去呼籲因為假設我是落農我光看這個文我心裡想說哎呀其實農業部好像也沒有很支持我們嘛他還給他選擇給他A案跟B案假案跟疑案選擇然後後面才只有"},{"start":252.773,"end":270.196,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":270.336,"end":271.437,"text":"但是呢本席跟所有的弱農我們都希望看到農業部更堅定的立場"},{"start":291.653,"end":313.813,"text":" ️ 簽訂支持臺灣的鮮乳的立場能夠把長效乳就直接標長效乳不要標長效鮮乳那另外呢連續下雨那雲林縣受影響很大部長知道說濕度高的這個稻米今年的這個價格很差不只雲林縣甚至嘉義縣市都是一樣你知道現在每公斤多少錢嗎"},{"start":314.554,"end":317.235,"text":"應該每百台間大概950、930左右。沒錯。那相比去年呢,這是大大的降了。大大的降了超過10%以上。那雲林縣大概有200公頃以上的稻田都是倒了。"},{"start":331.9,"end":340.968,"text":"那為打天然災害救助辦法很多農民擔心說這個會越來越嚴重因為倒了就沒有人願意割甚至清割這個價格非常的差那農民真的很兩難對於農民這樣的無奈請問部長可以怎麼幫助他們呢?"},{"start":348.695,"end":375.742,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":375.742,"end":398.404,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":398.404,"end":426.374,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":426.374,"end":442.261,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":442.481,"end":458.967,"text":"還是可以收割但價格不好啊所以這就不符合保險嘛所以本席建議啊就是說整體未達天然災害這個標準農業部的部分是不是可以提出說這個第一期稻米"},{"start":459.787,"end":485.776,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":485.776,"end":511.493,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":512.625,"end":515.908,"text":"因為農民自災保險沒有審查辦法,他沒有把這個心血管疾病納在這個辦法裡面。那部長知道一般的勞工如果遇到這個情況會怎麼處理呢?針對勞工部分,治安署有"},{"start":530.981,"end":555.541,"text":" »:對於勞工職業觸發心血管疾病的參考指引但是我們農業部沒有所以呢本席希望說農業部是不是現在都已經從農委會升級成農業部了是不是應該仿效勞工的保障制定一個類似的參考指引來針對農民的保障喔對於這個部分喔部長是否認同我想委員可能"},{"start":556.802,"end":573.096,"text":"那個有一點有一點誤解齁其實我們的認定齁只要他去看醫生醫生專業認定我們就同意他都死在田裡了他後續他在醫院的時候只要醫院認定就可以沒有問題是現在醫生沒辦法認定就是醫生沒辦法認定所以你需要一個指引讓醫生去認定沒有現在醫生本身他沒辦法認定因為呢"},{"start":582.585,"end":604.138,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":604.54,"end":629.342,"text":"我們現在已經有請所有的相關的職業專業醫師在做相關的指引那你沒有給他指引啊你願不願意給他們指引我願意而且我們現在已經有在做那我是說現在的情況他比職業還寬鬆只要專業醫師認定就可以就是希望你可以盡速有一個指引那如果部長有相關的資料請送本委員會謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153910","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153910","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba071bc19599696c6ea560592432c08898ef0c311de3a91f948ab493fdf411f87c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:26:10 - 09:36:25","影片長度":"00:10:15","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:26:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:36:25+08:00","duration":615,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時26分）謝謝主席，我們請曾主委。"],["主席：請曾主委。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。主委，剛剛聽到您的報告，不管是對原民會的業務報告或者是對都市原住民地區的權益，我想都有著墨，我現在服務的地方是新北市，所以我當然關心的題目就是都市原住民的權益為優先，所以我今天想跟你談談的是在我選區常常發生的一個問題，就是我們在都市的原住民聚會所到底要怎麼樣才可以得到政府的幫助，讓我們有機會可以建置起來？因為我們在都會地區，我們還是希望有我們族人朋友可以活動，就像在自己故鄉一樣的狀況，這個最需要什麼？需要的是寬闊的地方嘛！對不對？因為說實在的，我們的活動常常都是平面式的，不管是舞蹈、祭祀等等，你如果是讓我們在高樓大廈內或者室內空間，其實看起來都不像，也沒有辦法完整，我這個認知，主委，應該合理啦！合理，好，其實這個問題我問了很多年，現在是很高興看到您在今天的報告裡面，這一份都會區原住民族的權益保障措施精進方案裡面，你有寫到你們在今年開始會建置原住民族的主流化友善空間計畫，打造都市地區的原住民族文化傳承場域，主委，這個和我需要的都市原住民地區的聚會所會有相關嗎？我可以因為這個計畫得到幫助嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們在都會區，特別是我們的族人要借場地或者是使用場地辦各項的活動，很需要有一個屬於自己的空間，我們有一個這樣的計畫，就是都會區……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我看是今年開始的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，從113年到116年，我們可以有這樣的一個計畫來協助，這個計畫全部是10億……"],["蘇委員巧慧：4年10億的計畫。"],["曾主任委員智勇：10億的計畫，就可以提報，像都市比較多原住民的而且是比較需要這樣場地的，我們願意來協助。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那我就想問了，我覺得我很高興看到有這個計畫、這個方向，但是我就想知道4年10億的計畫，你們是如何選定地點？是只要我們自己喜歡、我們常用、我們高興的就可以嗎？還是你有什麼樣的條件或限制？那這個條件和限制對我們會有幫助嗎？我今天就想聽你講細部一點。"],["曾主任委員智勇：第一個，它必須是人口希望能夠達到1,500人以上。"],["蘇委員巧慧：1,500人以上，我這裡到處都是。"],["曾主任委員智勇：還有那個場域的土地如果是沒有問題那是最好，因為有問題的話，我們又會延宕，那個土地沒有問題的話，我們來協助會比較快。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，什麼叫做沒有問題？沒有問題的話，我還需要找政府嗎？對不對？說實在的，這個地方其實就是需要原民會下去協助，說實在的，我跟主委說一下，我今天看到這個計畫真是一則以喜、一則以憂，喜的是我們政府看到了族人的需求了，所以有要投入費用、預算來幫忙、協助大家做聚會所，可是憂的是什麼呢？我跟主委說，如果你之後有機會到我們新北這邊，我至少就可以邀請你去兩個地方，一個是鶯歌的南靖部落，在臨水的河邊、河岸地，我們每年都在那邊舉辦聚會，可是那個地方就是河灘地。河灘地可以用來蓋一個聚會所嗎？我想有困難。另外一個地方是哪裡？鶯歌的中湖、永昌交界，中山橋下，那個地方也不錯，我們平常可以在那邊射箭，還有跳舞、聚會等等，其實是一個很適合的地方，坦白講，平常區公所、清潔隊也有在那邊使用。主委，我剛剛講的兩個地方，你覺得土地有沒有問題？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，委員剛剛講的應該是中……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["曾主任委員智勇：橋那邊比較沒有問題，因為是公有地，那裡也比較……應該是……我這樣看啦！因為我沒有去現場看過，但是我覺得那邊會比較沒有問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以只要土地是可以的，或者只要是公家的，你們都可以協助把它轉成是原住民朋友做為聚會所的地方，是這樣嗎？主委，你在這裡等於承諾原民會不只是給錢，而且至少……好啦！我不敢說，因為你是中央層級，這個一定要經過地方政府，說實在的，這一定有跟地方政府合作的部分。但至少原民會，你現在是不是可以在備詢台這裡公開地承諾，原民會會協助輔導族人朋友就這個計畫爭取到我們最最需要的聚會所？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個會，跟委員報告……"],["蘇委員巧慧：那我要找哪個單位？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們公建處，原民會的公共建設處。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，公建處嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：公建處，那請你帶著計畫到我的辦公室來，我們就個案，今天在跟你講通則，那我現在已經跟你講了兩個具體的個案，我新北還有更多的地方其實都有這樣的需要，你可不可以盤點新北所有目前有需要的、申請過的，曾列案、入案的地方，都跟我們辦公室做說明，看看現在的進程可以到哪裡，可以嗎？公建處這裡。主委可以嗎？"],["劉處長維哲：現在就有資料，我們等一下可以提供。"],["蘇委員巧慧：會後就提供，然後我們一個一個就個案來談，看到底哪幾個可以。","主委，那我再問你，這個是競爭型計畫嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以有申請的期限嗎？要以誰為主體來申請？"],["曾主任委員智勇：直轄市政府……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以必須報到市政府。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：市政府還要先報上去，所以有沒有入列，是市政府決定這個順序嗎？市政府會先排一個順序，然後才送你們決定，你們按照市政府編排的順序做勾選、核給經費嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也不是，他們報上來，我們還是要下去看。"],["蘇委員巧慧：當然你要下去看。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是這個順序，市政府是不是有權力決定一、二、三、四順位，我的意思是，如果到時候沒有通過，到底是市政府的問題還是你的問題？"],["曾主任委員智勇：第一個，他報上來，我們還要下去看，那個優先順序也會跟地方政府談。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以地方政府是很關鍵的一環就對了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我希望藉由今天，我問得這麼細，是因為我知道很多族人朋友都會看國會頻道，我們在問政的過程當中，這是他們非常關心的一個問題。我很希望今天看到這一則質詢的朋友們，可以瞭解原民會有開辦這樣的計畫，我們有心要解決大家的問題，但申請的計畫、步驟以及權責，地方和中央要能夠一起合作。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：原民會要一起來解決大家的困擾，包括土地利用的問題，但是錢的部分我希望能夠從寬編列，讓大家有一個好的聚會所，不然你講文化傳承等等，如果沒有場域，說實在的其實都很難，一年、兩年沒有跳舞，到時候連腳步怎麼動都已經忘記了，同意嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我也再跟主委說，昨天同樣是這個會場上，我們在審新住民權益的保障，至於要用專法或基本法都還在討論當中。但是我們可以看得出來，其實對於新住民，在不同的部會裡面有不同的服務單位、有常態型和申請型，主委有看到這一頁嗎？你前面的螢幕應該也有。新住民的是這樣，那我們原住民也有嗎？每一項都有嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們有六十……"],["蘇委員巧慧：在內政部有新住民家庭服務中心，是常態型，服務對象為新住民；教育部有家庭教育中心，是常態型，服務對象為全民；教育部還有申請型的新住民學習中心，提供給新住民。"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：原住民有沒有比較少？不能比較少，對不對？因為我們的建構更完全。","下一頁，我幫你整理出來，其實我們每一項都有，可是我要跟主委再次提醒，我們還有更多的計畫，就如同剛剛說的，其實很多縣市政府都不知道要來申請，比如我們看到衛福部有「原住民族及離島地區部落社區健康營造計畫」，這個不是只有原鄉可以申請，都會區的原住民部落也可以來申請。結果你看看，哪幾個縣市有來申請？老實講，一看其實只有高雄市最積極，高雄市去調查了其所有原民鄉之外，連小港區的都市原住民，他們都來申請這個計畫了，那我就想知道為什麼新北沒有、桃園沒有、臺中沒有？是他們的政府比較不積極嗎？還是他們不夠瞭解？我覺得原民會應該要可以幫忙去瞭解一下，凡是有資源的我們都應該可以爭取，不能讓族人朋友搞不清楚狀況，到底是中央還是地方的嘛！這樣可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我也希望這邊可以盤整，各部會有其他針對原民相關的補助計畫等等，能夠提供到我的辦公室，我們一起為族人朋友的權益做爭取，這樣可以吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝巧慧委員。","請問主委，你再回應一下，風雨球場或者那個是原民會全額嗎？還是地方政府必須也出資，或者由協會提供，要不然個人的話怎麼跟縣市政府申請，你可能要問清楚。再講一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，第一個，跟主席報告……"],["主席：或者是聚會所。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，就是你講的這個聚會所，它必須是……"],["主席：巧慧委員。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，跟委員報告，就是它必須是……最好這個土地一定是要公有地，這是第一個。"],["主席：我知道，是協會來申請還是個人？"],["曾主任委員智勇：地方政府來申請。"],["主席：對，誰去跟地方政府申請？"],["劉處長維哲：地方政府申請。"],["主席：所以個人就可以跟地方政府申請，還是協會去跟地方政府申請？"],["劉處長維哲：報告委員，這是公共設施，所以是地方政府執行……"],["主席：也就是說地方政府要清楚知道，但是我們的族人必須要去跟地方政府說有這個需求。"],["劉處長維哲：需求，對。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["主席：重點是在這裡。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["主席：因為在部落裡面，尤其是都會區，大概都是協會，不會是個人嘛！他要用到這一塊的時候，一定是一個協會嘛！這個協會就會到縣市政府去申請嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["主席：然後縣市政府才報給原民會，而這樣的經費縣市政府要不要提供，還是原民會全額？"],["劉處長維哲：按照中央對地方的補助比例來分攤。"],["主席：所以是要地方政府。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主席，既然你問到這裡了，那容我也加入討論一下。"],["主席：你要確定一下。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，因為我也處理過相當多的天幕球場的這種部分，確實就如同主席說的，這所有的計畫都是公家的計畫，所以就是地方縣市政府，還不是區公所，是地方縣市政府去提出申請，跟中央申請了之後，中央……像我們新北就大概是六、四比吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大概是這樣的狀況，所以一定是地方縣市政府。因此剛剛說的個人和協會只能反映意見給公所……"],["主席：對！反映意見。"],["蘇委員巧慧：反映意見，然後公所也代為轉達到地方縣市政府。"],["主席：對。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我剛剛要說的其實也就是這樣，謝謝主席，大家一起把這件事情弄得更清楚。"],["主席：對。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝，好。"],["主席：要不然族人搞不清楚，為什麼……"],["蘇委員巧慧：以為自己就可以申請。"],["主席：對，為什麼我提出的都沒有，然後每次回應的時候就是沒有經費……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["主席：所以要比例啦！對不對？講清楚，縣市政府往中央報的時候，中央也要出一部分的比例，如果那個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果通過了的話。"],["主席：對，如果中央通過。中央通過的話，如果地方政府也不編那一半，可能也做不到嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["主席：是不是？所以中央跟地方要配合……"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["主席：才能夠完成這件事情。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且中央大概會按著地方政府陳報上來的順序吧！不然的話，為什麼地方政府認為他是第一優先、第二優先、第三優先，中央是跳到後面去，這個也是有問題的狀況。"],["主席：對，所以非常多族人都會有很多的問號，這個我們要一併講清楚，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","繼續請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","盧縣一","黃建賓","丁學忠","莊瑞雄"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住\n民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原\n住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推\n動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政\n部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.90346875,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.56534375,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.015968750000003,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.652843750000002,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.496593750000002,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.58721875,"end":95.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.13409375,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.73909375000001,"end":116.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.73846875000001,"end":137.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.91534375,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.92784375000001,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.11159375,"end":133.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.33909375000002,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.88284375,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.96659375000002,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":152.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.39971875,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.70846875,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.00784375,"end":179.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.69909375,"end":179.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.90159375000002,"end":180.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.01971875,"end":192.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.57659375,"end":180.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.53659375,"end":250.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.96221875,"end":272.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.17409375,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.64221875000004,"end":280.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.25721875,"end":281.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.69159375000004,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":324.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.63846875,"end":326.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.78596875,"end":326.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.86159375,"end":331.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.89096875,"end":329.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.22409375,"end":355.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.87409375000004,"end":357.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.52784375000005,"end":364.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.91471875,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.42096875000004,"end":366.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.45471875000004,"end":366.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.47159375,"end":367.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.02846875,"end":370.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.78284375000004,"end":373.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.03159375,"end":390.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.60284375000003,"end":393.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.69096875,"end":404.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.26034375,"end":395.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.29284375000003,"end":404.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.85784375000003,"end":412.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.57409375000003,"end":415.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.86471875,"end":416.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.15159375,"end":465.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.84846875000005,"end":466.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.37159375000005,"end":476.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.83409375,"end":496.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.15159375,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.82221875000005,"end":500.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.58971875000003,"end":502.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.46721875000003,"end":505.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.77909375,"end":516.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.3003437500001,"end":518.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.3972187500001,"end":518.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.46471875,"end":519.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.48159375,"end":518.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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謝謝主席 我們請曾主委也請曾主委主委好主委剛剛聽到您的報告不管是對人民會的這個業務報告或者是對都市原住民地區的權益我想都有著墨那我想我現在我服務的地方是新北市所以我當然"},{"start":31.641,"end":36.282,"text":"關心的題目就是都市原住民的權益為優先所以我今天想跟你談談的是在我選區常常發生的一個問題就是我們在都市的原住民聚會所到底要怎麼樣才可以得到政府的幫助讓我們有機會可以建置起來因為我們在都會地區我們還是希望有我們族人朋友可以活動就像在自己故鄉一樣的狀況那這個最需要什麼"},{"start":58.948,"end":69.713,"text":"需要的是寬闊的地方嘛對不對因為說實在的我們的活動常常都是平面式的不管是舞蹈啦祭祀啊等等你如果是這樣我們在高樓大廈內或者室內空間其實看起來都不像也沒有辦法完整我這個認知主委應該合理啦齁合理"},{"start":79.158,"end":94.451,"text":"好那我現在呢其實這問題問了很多年我現在是很高興看到您在今天你的報告裡面吼這一份都會區原住民族的權益保障措施精進方案裡面你有寫到你們在今年開始會"},{"start":96.232,"end":110.233,"text":"建制原住民族的主流化友善空間計畫打造都市地區的原住民族文化傳統場域這個和我需要的原住民、都市原住民地區的這個聚會所會有相關嗎?我可以因為這個計畫得到幫助嗎?"},{"start":113.056,"end":133.543,"text":"跟委員報告我們在都會區特別是我們的族人要借場地或者是使用場地辦各項的活動很需要有一個屬於自己的一個空間那我們這個我們有一個這樣的一個計劃就是都會區我看是今年開始的從113年到116年我們"},{"start":137.935,"end":158.095,"text":"可以有這樣的一個計畫來協助這個計畫全部是10億4年10億的計畫10億的計畫那可以就可以提報這樣都市比較多原住民的而且是比較需要這樣產業的我們願意來協助好那我就想問了我覺得我很高興看到有這個計畫這個方向但是那我就想知道4年10億的計畫那你們是如何選定這個地點"},{"start":161.918,"end":172.636,"text":"是我們自己只要我們喜歡我們常用我們高興的就可以嗎還是你有什麼樣的條件或限制那這個條件和限制對我們會有幫助嗎我今天就想聽你細部一點講第一個"},{"start":175.1,"end":191.155,"text":"他必須是人口希望能夠達到一千五百人以上一千五百人以上我這裡到處都是還有希望那個場域的土地如果是沒有問題那是最好因為有問題的話我們又會延宕希望是那個土地沒有問題的話我們來協助會比較快"},{"start":193.598,"end":197.939,"text":"主委,什麼叫做沒有問題?沒有問題的話我還需要找政府嗎?對不對?說實在的這個地方其實就是需要原民會下去協助啦說實在的因為我跟主委說一下我今天看到這個計畫真是一則以喜一則以憂喜的是我們政府看到了族人的需求了"},{"start":215.123,"end":236.658,"text":"所以有要投入費用來預算來幫忙協助大家做這個聚會所可是優的是什麼呢我跟主委說如果你這個之後有機會來到我們新北這邊我至少就可以邀請你去兩個地方一個是我們英哥的南進部落他在領水河邊河岸地我們每年都在那邊舉辦聚會啊可是那個地方就是河灘地啊河灘地可以用來蓋一個島路岸可以蓋一個聚會所嗎我想有困難"},{"start":244.884,"end":265.36,"text":"另外一個地方是我英哥的中湖和永昌的交界中山橋下中山橋下那個地方也很不錯我們平常可以在這邊射箭還有跳舞聚會等等其實都是一個很適合的地方坦白講那個地方還是什麼我們平常區公所清潔隊也有在那邊做一個使用"},{"start":266.221,"end":280.961,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況下那這個地方主委我剛剛講的兩個地方你覺得土地有沒有問題我跟委員報告你委員剛剛講的應該是中那個什麼那個橋那邊那個對比較沒有問題因為它是公有地那裡也比較應該是"},{"start":282.683,"end":287.367,"text":"我這樣看啦是因為我沒有去看過現場但是我覺得那邊會比較沒有問題所以只要土地是可以的或者只要是公家的你們都可以協助把它轉成是原住民朋友可以來做聚會所的地方是這樣嗎主委你在這裡是等於是承諾"},{"start":300.796,"end":314.348,"text":"原民會不只是給錢而且至少好啦我不敢說因為你是中央層級嘛這一定要經過地方政府啦說實在的這一定有跟地方政府合作的部分但是至少原民會你現在是不是可以在備詢台這裡公開的承諾原民會會協助輔導我們族人朋友來就這個計畫爭取到我們最最需要的聚會所這個會跟委員報告那我要找哪個單位"},{"start":327.884,"end":355.662,"text":"我們公建處,我們原民會的公共建設公建處那請你帶著計畫到我的辦公室來我們就各案今天在這裡跟你講通則嘛那我現在已經跟你講了兩個具體的個案了我新北還有更多的地方其實都有這樣的需要你可不可以盤點新北所有目前有需要的有申請過的有列案入案過的地方的都來跟我們辦公室做一個說明看看我們現在進程可以到哪裡可以嗎?公建處這裡主委可以嗎?現在就有資料我們等一下可以提供"},{"start":357.743,"end":364.226,"text":"會後就提供嘛吼,然後我們一個一個個案來談,到底哪幾個可以。好,主委,那我再問你喔,這個是競爭型計畫嗎?對。對吼,所以他有申請的期限嗎?他要用誰做主體來申請?"},{"start":372.816,"end":387.64,"text":"直轄市政府所以必須是要報到市政府市政府還要先把你報上去所以你有沒有入列是市政府決定這個順序嗎市政府會先排一個順序然後才來送你們決定你們按照市政府編排的順序來做勾選來核給經費嗎"},{"start":390.717,"end":404.166,"text":"也不是我們他報上來我們還是要下去看啦當然你要下去看嘛但是這個順序市政府是不是有權利決定一二三四我的意思是說如果到時候沒有過到底是市政府的問題還是是你的問題"},{"start":406.726,"end":430.084,"text":"第一他報上來我們還要下去看啦然後那個優先數據也是會跟地方政府來談所以地方政府是很關鍵的一環就對了啦那我是希望說今天藉著這樣我今天問得這麼細是因為我知道很多族人朋友已經都會看我們的國會頻道我們在問政的過程當中這是一個他們非常關心的問題我很希望今天看到這一則質詢的朋友們可以了解"},{"start":432.506,"end":436.948,"text":"原住民會有開了這樣的計畫我們有心要解決大家的問題但申請的計畫還有步驟還有全責是地方和中央要能夠一起合作的這個是大家原住民會要一起來解決大家的困擾包括土地利用的問題但是錢的部分我希望能夠從寬編列"},{"start":453.235,"end":475.936,"text":"讓大家能夠有一個好的聚會所不然你講文化傳承等等如果沒有場域說實在的其實都很難啊一年沒有跳舞兩年沒有跳舞到時候連腳步都怎麼都已經忘記了同意啦同意好那主委我也在跟您說啦我們昨天在同樣這個會議場上我們在審新住民權益的保障至於要用專法還是要用基本法都還在"},{"start":477.758,"end":497.657,"text":"討論當中。」但是我們可以看得出來其實新住民他在不同的部會裡面有不同的服務單位有常態型和申請型其實非常非常的對主委你有看到這一頁嗎你前面的螢幕應該也是有你覺得原住民也有新住民的新住民的是這樣原住民的我們也有嗎每一項都有嗎"},{"start":501.618,"end":519.555,"text":"我們在內政部有新住民家庭服務中心是常態型服務對象新住民教育部有家庭教育中心常態型服務對象是全民還有教育部仍然還有申請型的新住民學習中心給新住民原住民有沒有比較少"},{"start":520.697,"end":546.464,"text":"不能比較少啊對不對因為我們的建構更完全嘛好我給你看下一頁啦下一頁我幫你整理出來其實我們每一項都有可是我要跟主委再次提醒的其實我們還有更多的計畫就如同剛剛說的其實很多的縣市政府都沒有知道要來申請比如說我們看到衛福部有原住民及離島地區部落的社區健康營造計畫這個齁"},{"start":549.133,"end":574.05,"text":"其實不是只有原鄉可以申請是都會區的原住民部落也可以來申請結果你看看哪幾個縣市有來申請老實講一看哇其實只有高雄市最積極啊高雄市去採訪了去調查了他所有的原民鄉之外連小港區的都市原住民他都來申請這個計畫了那我就想知道為什麼新北沒有"},{"start":575.393,"end":592.33,"text":"為什麼桃園沒有?為什麼台中沒有?是他們的政府比較不積極嗎?還是他們不夠了解?我覺得這個原民會應該要可以幫忙去了解一下。凡是有資源的,我們都應該要可以爭取,不能讓我們的族人朋友搞不清楚狀況啊,到底是中央的還是是地方的嘛。」"},{"start":592.87,"end":614.503,"text":"主委希望這邊可以盤整各部會其他對原民有相關的補助計畫等等能夠提供到我的辦公室我們一起來為族人朋友的權益做爭取這樣可以吧?可以好 謝謝主委好 謝謝巧惠委員請問一下主委你再回應一下那個風雨球場或者是那個是原民會"}]}},{"id":"153909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153909","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba07962ff922c72c71ac65fab1c545da5d0f0c311de3a91f948ee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:21:49 - 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One這樣的一個基礎，那高教要怎麼走下去？這是一些基層的老師對你的期待，那我們就一一來看。","你一天到晚講到STEM，我也同意喔，可是數據會說話，經濟部為了配合AI的趨勢，表示未來應該要培養20萬AI人才，但是從你的報告以及從我們的資訊可以顯示出，我們從102年開始到111年，雖然有少子化的關係，但是你可以看得出來，STEM學生減少的減幅大概達15%，這是非常高的一個比率，所以表示我們臺灣雖然是有科技大廠，但是學生願意進入這樣一個理工科的系統，其實是有減少的趨勢。我們再來看，教育部特別提到了希望能夠研發半導體的課程，然後在112年來試辦，我們先不要看你的同事講什麼，你同意這件事嗎？次長？"],["葉次長丙成：你說……"],["柯委員志恩：教育部要來研發半導體的課程，然後在高中來做一些試辦，你覺得呢？"],["葉次長丙成：我們覺得在多元選修的這個部分讓同學有更多的各種選擇，不只是半導體的領域，我們最近也在研議包括像AI的領域，因為要高中的量能去開這種多元選修課其實是蠻困難的。"],["柯委員志恩：是，但是我還是要請你來看一下，你的同事，也是臺大電資學院的張耀文院長就提到，108課綱弱化數理科才是半導體產業最大的殺手，你也不用開什麼樣的部分，臺大到目前為止，對於很多被送到我們臺大這間Top One學校的學生，我們認為他們的所謂數理基礎的核心數理可能都還要再加強，為什麼？99年課綱必修課是16學分，108課綱只剩下8學分，四個領域大概都只有分到2學分而已，所以整個課綱來說的話，他們認為這才是最重要的，你贊同他講的話嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，這個可能是有誤解，因為如果我們加上加深加廣的學分數的話，其實是沒有減少的……"],["柯委員志恩：你真的認為這樣嗎？你自己教學這麼久，你覺得你現在教的學生，今年跟前幾年比起來，他們的數理核心能力有被弱化嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我覺得還好。召委，不好意思！我再報告一件事情，大家忽略了一件事情，之前有數據說今年的學生跟往年比起來可能程度有落差等等，其實有一個關鍵因素，大家沒有注意到的是這群學生正好經歷了COVID-19……"],["柯委員志恩：所以他的數位能力會特別好，是不是？"],["葉次長丙成：不是，因為他很多的學習、學科是透過線上學習……"],["柯委員志恩：所以？"],["葉次長丙成：所以這裡面對他來講，其實也不是只有臺灣，其他的國家也有看到，他們學習的成效跟實體的……"],["柯委員志恩：好，還是不好？"],["葉次長丙成：是有可能……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你以前做的Coursera這些所謂的線上課程就檢討一下，好不好？","還有一個明星高中的老師就講，把中小學的自然科學教育教好比半導體的課程更重要。我只是要突顯目前很多STEM的優勢正在消失，為什麼？因為很多學者專家都提出來，我們數理教育的弱化才造成我們現在人才非常需要來討論的。所以當教育部長說，誰說我們的教育不好？我告訴你，真的跟他溝通一下。","接下來我要來問一下，這是必答題，你是賴清德總統邀請你來當政次的嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我是部長邀請我來當政次的。"],["柯委員志恩：所以不是賴清德總統。"],["葉次長丙成：總統沒有直接跟我說這件事情。"],["柯委員志恩：為什麼這麼問？因為你要為他的教育政策來做背書。他的這個部分來說的話，包括他的雙語教育，在「不良大叔」的時候，你專訪他，他特別提出來2030雙語教育的政策，你身為高教的教授，你覺得有沒有機會？還有他也特別在他的就職演說當中認為應該遞出橄欖枝，對於大陸的學生，應該開放，目前你掌管高教，你有跟其他的學校討論過陸生入學的相關細節嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我們現在在陸生這件事情確實是非常的有善意，我們是抱持著開放……"],["柯委員志恩：你們開始跟這些大學來做這樣的處理了嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：但現在的關鍵是在於我們先要得到對岸的……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有問題，你現在有沒有跟這些大學來討論這件事情？"],["葉次長丙成：我們跟招聯會有在溝通。"],["柯委員志恩：還沒有開過會，對嘛！"],["葉次長丙成：還沒有正式開過會。"],["柯委員志恩：還沒有正式開過會嘛！現在是幾月，我們入學是幾月，所以很顯然明年來說是有一點問題的，因為我們都要提前一年來作業，所以賴總統所遞出的這個橄欖枝目前很顯然還是沒有看到。","接下來他的雙語教育，目前為止高教執行EMI全英語課程，這是選擇題嗎？還是必須要？你認為專業比較重要，還是用一堆不通順的英文來教專業比較重要？"],["葉次長丙成：報告召委，這個是學校來申請的，並不是我們強迫他們的。"],["柯委員志恩：好，所以這是個選項……"],["葉次長丙成：對，是選項。"],["柯委員志恩：我告訴各位，目前我們私校招收外籍的學生，對英文來說，你認為它有沒有門檻？就你的理解。"],["葉次長丙成：你說私校……"],["柯委員志恩：對，招收外籍學生。"],["葉次長丙成：有，有門檻。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，現在他只要進來，其實都可以，所以這就是一個非常大的問題，這些學生很多都不是來自英語系國家，英文不是他們的母語，英文也不是我們大學老師的母語，所以大家都是用非母語的語言來教學，而且國發會和教育部還攜手鼓勵非常多移工來臺灣念大學，用什麼樣的語言？用什麼樣的科系招生？很多招生不佳的學校大量招收移工，你知道嗎？這些學生第一年來就可以拿到工作證。","我要請教次長，你知道很多東南亞的學生來臺灣念書最大的誘因是什麼嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，因為我們在新南向專班（招生基地）都有華語的課，他要上到檢定A2的等級，才能夠來臺灣……"],["柯委員志恩：我剛剛問的問題不是這個，你有點太緊張，我問你覺得這些東南亞學生到我們這邊來念書最大的誘因是什麼？"],["葉次長丙成：我想工作可能是他一個很大的誘因。"],["柯委員志恩：是不是？所以打工很容易，又有很多獎學金，當我們臺灣本土學生都沒有這麼多獎學金的時候，他們比別人拿到更多的獎學金，一來就可以拿到工作證，而且教育部只規定每週工作時數最多20小時，但是很多時候國際處根本就沒有辦法去查他們到底有沒有打工超時，沒有辦法做到這樣的處理，難怪非常多的東南亞學生過來。你知道我們現在最多的東南亞學生是哪一國嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：越南。"],["柯委員志恩：現在是越南，之前是馬來西亞，但是你可以看得出來，東南亞學生的增幅很大，馬來西亞的學生現在卻急速下降，為什麼？因為中國大陸提供他們更大的誘因，所以我個人建議，次長，因為你的辨識度很高，所以你也不用微服出巡，你就大膽的出巡一下，我們投入這麼多高教資源在這些地方當中，我說實在，你真的是可以把新南向的政策好好翻轉一下，可以嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：好，我們會來……"],["柯委員志恩：以這個績效來說，我們現在招收不到所謂真正英語系國家的學生，反而是來自新南向國家的學生，以我在大學教學的經驗來說，這些學生來，對他們來說，學費便宜，有獎學金，又可以打工，對我們來說的話，這個會是我們臺灣吸引新南向學生的最大目標嗎？這樣的生源有辦法真正救到我們瀕臨倒閉邊緣的學校嗎？","最後一個問題就是有關我們私校的問題，目前我們預估可能還有40所私校也面臨倒閉，現在開始就有很多問題，不僅是老師未來出路的問題，包括他們未來該怎麼樣、流浪教師，還有更少人願意念博士，未來的高教可能會面臨師資的不足，這麼林林總總的問題，你覺得有沒有一個可以解決的方法？簡短的回答。"],["葉次長丙成：好，我先澄清一下，跟召委報告，剛才的四十幾家，其實目前我們大學是沒有這種專輔的學校，所以媒體在講的可能是高中職這個部分。"],["柯委員志恩：有人說六十幾個學校，有人說四十幾個學校，或許不是在明年，可是照這樣的模式一直走下去的話，我相信未來10年之內這樣的比率是非常高的，所以我才會特別提醒，私校已經面臨一個所謂的退場潮流，流浪老師、不願意念博士，所以大部分學校為了補足生源，都是招攬來自不曉得講什麼語言的這些新南向學生，這都是我們臺灣高等教育的最大問題。","我還是強調一次，為了配合AI，我說實在，我們不能吃老本，如果你沒有辦法在高中開始就把這些理化科目的核心課程好好的扎實，我覺得大學端會非常的辛苦，這點你應該同意吧！"],["葉次長丙成：我覺得數理基礎是重要的沒錯。"],["柯委員志恩：數理是重要的，就看你怎麼樣來處理，好不好？還是給予你最大的期許，我希望新南向政策翻轉，那才是你真正配合上這個翻轉教授的最大目標，謝謝。"],["葉次長丙成：好。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：謝謝。接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","林倩綺","葛如鈞","葉元之","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","賴士葆","林思銘","陳亭妃","翁曉玲","范雲","羅智強","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","吳春城"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.36846875,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.73409375,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.45534375,"end":28.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.71409375,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.00409375,"end":127.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.92659375000001,"end":128.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.44971875000002,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.73659375,"end":128.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.85471875000002,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.54971875,"end":151.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.21409375000002,"end":199.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.61159375000003,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.30221875,"end":216.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.11096875,"end":218.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.01784375000003,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.13721875000002,"end":239.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.52096875,"end":239.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.68971875000003,"end":255.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.92846875,"end":251.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.00409375,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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台大啊 這Top1的學校啊我們都可能對於他們這個所謂的數理的基礎的核心數理 恐怕都還是要再加強 為什麼"},{"start":183.114,"end":186.596,"text":"99年的課綱必修課是16學分1108課綱只剩下8學分4個領域大概幾乎都可分到2學分而已我們再來看下面所以呢你看整個課綱來說的話他們認為這才是個最重要的你贊同他的講的話嗎報告委員這個可能是有誤解因為如果我們加上這個這個加深加廣的這個學分數的話其實是沒有減少的"},{"start":208.308,"end":208.408,"text":"我覺得還好"},{"start":219.383,"end":220.604,"text":"所以他的數位能力會特別好,是不是?"},{"start":240.598,"end":243.58,"text":"還有一個明星高中的老師就講吧把中小學自然科學教育教好比半導體的課程更重要我只要凸顯"},{"start":268.877,"end":270.518,"text":"接下來我要來問一下這是必答題你是賴清德總統邀請你來當政策的嗎?"},{"start":295.894,"end":313.433,"text":"所以不是賴清德總統?為什麼?因為你要被他的教育政策來做背書你看他這個部分來說的話包括他的雙語教育你跟他在做這個不良大叔的時候你專訪他"},{"start":314.534,"end":319.076,"text":"他特別提出了2030四雙語教育的政策你身為高教的這個部分你覺得有沒有機會還有呢他也特別在他的就職演說當中認為應該遞出橄欖枝然後呢對於大陸的學生應該來做一個開放你目前為止掌管高教你有跟其他的學校來討論過陸生入學的這樣的相關的細節嗎"},{"start":337.761,"end":339.342,"text":"您開始跟這些大學來做這樣的處理了嗎?沒有問題,你現在有沒有跟這些大學的部分裡面,招生裡面來討論這件事情?"},{"start":356.075,"end":358.277,"text":"接下來他的雙語教育目前為止高就要執行EMR的全英語的課程那這是選擇題嗎?還是必須要?"},{"start":381.033,"end":402.643,"text":"你認為專業比較重要還是用一堆不通順的英文來教專業比較重要?報告章偉這個是學校來申請的所以並不是我們強迫他所以是個選項我告訴各位目前來說我們私校招收外籍的學生對英文來說你認為他有沒有門檻就你的理解你說私校招收外籍學生"},{"start":404.064,"end":420.155,"text":"有門檻沒有,現在你只要進來其實都可以所以呢這就是一個非常大的一個問題非常多這些很多學生都不是來自於英文不是他們的母語我們的大學老師也不是母語所以大家人就是用非母語的這語言都來做這樣一個教學而且呢國發會和教育部還攜手鼓勵非常多的移工來台灣念大學"},{"start":426.4,"end":427.701,"text":"請教次長,你知道很多東南亞的學生來台灣,念書最大的誘因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":445.387,"end":462.16,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們在這個新南向的這個專班其實我們在招生基地我們都有華語的課他要上到要檢定到A2的等級他才能夠來談我先問我剛剛問的問題你有點太緊張問他說你覺得讓這些人到我們這邊來念書最大的用意是什麼"},{"start":462.5,"end":477.886,"text":"我講工作可能是他一個很大的因素是不是所以說打工很容易然後又有很多獎學金但我們台灣本土學生都沒有這麼多獎學金的時候他們比別人拿到更多的獎學金而且一拿就可以拿到工作證而且教育部只規定只規定你每週工作時數最多20小時但是呢很多時候國際處根本就沒有辦法"},{"start":484.949,"end":492.354,"text":"從這個學校到底有沒有打工超時沒有辦法做到這樣的一個處理難怪非常多的東南亞學生過來而且你從106年開始你知道我們現在最多的東南亞學生是哪一國嗎越南現在是越南之前是馬來西亞但是馬來西亞你可以看得出來他們增幅很大但現在已經急速下降為什麼因為中國大陸提供他們更大的一個誘因了"},{"start":506.664,"end":521.031,"text":"所以我個人建議當中來說呢我覺得次長因為你的辨識度很高你應該你也不用為福出巡你就大膽的去出巡一下事實上我們投入這麼多高教的資源在我們這些地方當中我說實在你真的是可以把新南向的政策好好給翻轉一下"},{"start":522.964,"end":549.838,"text":"可以嗎?你這個績效來說我們現在遭受不到一些所謂真正的英語系的國家反而來自這新南向的國家這些以我在大學教學的一個經驗來說這些學生來對他們來說學費便宜有獎學金然後又可以打工我覺得這個對我們來說的話這個是我們台灣吸引新南向學生最大的一個目標嗎?這樣的聲援有辦法真正救到我們要急於平民邊"},{"start":550.638,"end":551.598,"text":"您覺得有沒有一個可以解決的方法 簡短的方式"},{"start":580.485,"end":594.161,"text":"我想我們就是 有一個先澄清一下跟委員報告 朝委報告 四十幾家裡面其實很多我們大學目前其實是沒有這種專輔的學校 所以那個比較多大家在媒體上講可能是比較是高中職這個部分"},{"start":595.282,"end":611.732,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":611.892,"end":623.301,"text":"所謂的退場的潮流流浪老師不願念博士搜大部分為了補足聲援都是來自不曉得要講什麼語言的新南下這些學生這都是我們臺灣高等教育一個最大的問題我還是強調一次為了配合AI我說實在我們不能吃老本如果你沒有把辦法在高中開始以上就把這些理化的科目的核心課程好好的紮實我覺得大學端說實在的會非常的辛苦這點你應該同意吧"},{"start":643.016,"end":646.66,"text":"我希望新南向的這個翻轉那才是你真的可以翻轉真正配合上這個翻轉教授的一個最大的一個目標好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba069d61969c869872a79c37d5c63265337f0c311de3a91f9487fcbc83bc95981385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:16:30 - 09:25:50","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:16:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:25:50+08:00","duration":560,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":77,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時16分）謝謝主席。我想請教陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。剛剛聽到您有關植物診療師法的報告，你一開始講說這個法很重要，可是很有趣的是，今天所審的三個版本都是委員版本，沒有行政院版本，你可不可以說明一下，除了屆期不延續以外的原因嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明。正因屆期不續審，所以我們重新安排送院會通過。依照規範，所有送進立法院的版本一定要經過院會同意……"],["鄭委員正鈐：當然、當然。"],["陳部長駿季：我們也期待委員能夠等到行政院版本送進來一併審查，這樣更能確認未來的審核方向。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這代表行政部門對這事情的關注度不及立法委員，既然我們今天已經在審查植物診療師法，所以我才會特別點出這個狀態。也就是如果真的關心的話，腳步要加快，好不好？","從2017年開始到現在，之前原本是用「植物醫生」這樣的名詞，說實話，農業部可能也儲備了很多植物醫生，請問到目前為止總共有多少人？"],["陳部長駿季：目前各縣市政府跟各改良場大概有一百位儲備的植物醫師。"],["鄭委員正鈐：已經有一百位的儲備植物醫師了，對不對？我想請問，當時在提儲備植物醫師時有特別提到，從2017年推植物醫師法，現在叫植物診療師法。到2027年止，希望以十年時間能夠讓農藥減半，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：請問到目前為止進度如何？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明。有關農藥減半，我們是強調農藥風險的減半……"],["鄭委員正鈐：農藥風險的減半？不是農藥量的減半？"],["陳部長駿季：對，是農藥風險，就是劇毒農藥減半。因為使用農藥自有其風險，所以我們把農藥分為四個等級，目前針對高劇毒農藥會加速退場。我記得到現在、目前為止，劇毒農藥退場已經達到75%了，超過一半了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：劇毒農藥退場已經到75%了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為有些農藥用的量雖然比較多，但風險是比較低的，且我們有針對風險值做加權，這也是目前全世界的共同規範。所以我們期待在2027年能夠達到風險減半的目標，我們希望能夠達到。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以是風險減半，不是藥量減半？我想問一下，農民在用藥時很多都是預防性下藥，針對預防性下藥，植物診療師要怎麼開處方？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明。就病蟲害防治，特別是有蟲害時，會隨著密度有曲線的急速生長期，只有在曲線的急速生長期之前防治才最有效果，太早跟太晚都沒有用！像預防性的噴藥，除了浪費農藥錢以外，對病蟲害防治來說也沒有效果。這時候，植物診療師就可以用他的專業建議，因為他領有專業證照……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這就表示之後植物診療師要扮演起正確農藥推廣的使命，意思是這樣子嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：他是一個客製化的服務，他本身是可以開業的。相對來說……"],["鄭委員正鈐：之後植物診療師的量，你們原本預估當開始採取證照制度之後，大概預計的人數會是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我們預估大概是三千人，這三千人有一部分會配置在像農會或是縣市政府就可以聘請，在聘請的過程中可以用一個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以有三千人？我想問一下，之後植物診療師的功能強制性有多高？是不是農民買農藥的時候，都必須要有植物診療師的處方才能買？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，這是錯誤的訊息！植物診療師有其專屬的簽證範圍，且其專屬權就在簽證，也就是可以開立相關的診斷證明。現在並沒有買農藥一定要診療師開診斷……"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有說……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有這件事！"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有買農藥一定要植物診療師開處方……"],["陳部長駿季：完全沒有這件事！"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有這樣子的問題，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們要怎麼樣去發揮植物診療師的影響力，讓他真正達到農業部希望他達到的使命？"],["陳部長駿季：我想非常重要的就是植物診療師能夠更精準地診斷它是哪一類的病害、哪一類的蟲藥，接下來就可以非常精準的用藥，能夠做一個防治。"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外針對這個部分，我們針對植物診療師之後推到市場機制當中的時候，會不會增加農民在用藥當中的成本？因為很擔心處方是不是要付另外一筆費用？"],["陳部長駿季：反而會降低他的整個成本，因為以我們現在在觀察農民用藥，他如果用藥不夠精準的時候，他噴的藥反而是浪費的，所以……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。你希望透過市場的方式，讓農民更懂得怎麼樣子用藥是更合理、更科學的一個方式？"],["陳部長駿季：是，也可以節省農藥使用的費用。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這裡面聽起來，植物診療師要扮演很高的教育推廣的一個動作，我想這部分就看後續怎麼推。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來我想再問，因為講到植物診療師之後，我就上網去查，我發現現在網路上很多人在講寵物溝通師，從2018年開始，其實我們新生兒人數已經比毛小孩認養的數量低，持續在擴大當中，針對所謂的寵物溝通師，農業部有沒有打算要進行一些行政指引或者是管理的機制？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，所謂的寵物溝通師並沒有真正的科學證據，基本上我們是不會去認同有這樣的溝通師，到目前為止……"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是不認同嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，不認同。"],["鄭委員正鈐：網路上這麼多在講寵物溝通師，而且他們還強調他們也能夠做什麼事，也強調他們是有專業證照的，我稍微查了一下，包括亞洲動物溝通師認證，就是聯合認證，還有臺灣動物溝通中心等等都有一些相關的訊息，針對這個部分，你剛一開始講你不認同，那麼會不會有更具體的一些行政指引或管理動作？"],["陳部長駿季：我想後續我們針對整個寵物管理，管理的面向大概分為三個部分，一個是寵物本身，一個是寵物業，這個部分就是針對寵物業的部分，相關後續針對不合時宜的這些以寵物為名義開業的部分，我想我們會做一個相關的指引去讓外界溝通。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。部長，最後我想特別提一個狀態，就是農業部在113年度的投資收益預算數，比112年度的預算數減少2億36萬2,000元，減幅高達24.6%，我在想這個部分，我去看了一下裡面的分析，其中跟台肥有關，你們認為台肥的投資收益明顯減少的部分，跟我們今天在推的植物診療師有沒有關係？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，台肥本身的盈餘有一些降低，最主要是它在COVID-19整個原物料上漲的時候，它吸收了50%原物料上漲的成本，讓我們農民可以買到原價的肥料，所以它這個部分算是一個社會的企業責任。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以113年度農業部這邊的投資收益預算數大幅減低，你覺得是跟我們今天要推的植物診療師這部分是沒有關係的？"],["陳部長駿季：因為台肥不賣農藥。"],["鄭委員正鈐：台肥有賣農藥。"],["陳部長駿季：有嗎？"],["鄭委員正鈐：台肥有賣農藥，你上去看一下，它裡面有鹼性農藥的一個名單，很大！我今天特別提到這部分是希望農業部針對我們轉投資的民營事業能夠多加監督，希望能夠讓整個農業部轉投資的民營事業有更好的績效出來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員提醒。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請張嘉郡委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","羅廷瑋","黃國昌","黃秀芳","陳超明","徐富癸","邱志偉","洪孟楷","林岱樺"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案；二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬\n具「植物診療師法草案」案；三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案","agenda_id":"1136201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.40971875,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.95659375,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.28909375,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.24846875,"end":60.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.039718750000006,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.30846875,"end":64.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.37971875,"end":64.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.84784375000001,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.81721875000001,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.67784375000001,"end":92.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.79784375,"end":87.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.07971875000001,"end":99.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.54284375,"end":100.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.25159375000001,"end":100.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.26846875000001,"end":100.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.45409375000001,"end":100.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.84221875,"end":100.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.87596875000001,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.92221875000001,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.39221875000001,"end":119.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.82221875,"end":120.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.83909375,"end":120.90659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.90659375000001,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.97409375000001,"end":121.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.13846875,"end":122.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.54346875,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.96471875,"end":137.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.49971875,"end":133.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.54534375,"end":153.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.93096875,"end":158.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.93909375,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.03721875000002,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.74471875,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.77846875,"end":185.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.03159375,"end":190.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.34721875000002,"end":190.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.05596875,"end":224.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.23221875000002,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.96471875,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.03534375,"end":246.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.94596875000002,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.96221875,"end":251.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.94096875000002,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.97471875000002,"end":263.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.73659375,"end":267.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.11596875000004,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.34784375000004,"end":268.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.21471875000003,"end":307.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.26596875,"end":319.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.94909375000003,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.31159375000004,"end":311.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.96409375,"end":323.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.86221875,"end":331.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.13534375,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.27284375000005,"end":344.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.01096875,"end":344.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.33159375,"end":344.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.46659375,"end":344.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.56784375,"end":344.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.61846875000003,"end":344.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.65221875000003,"end":344.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.90534375000004,"end":344.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.92221875,"end":346.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.95596875,"end":346.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEA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那其實我們也真的期待,就是委員在審查的時候能夠有,能夠等到我們行政院版本送進來來一併審查,這樣的話更能夠去確認整個的未來的一個什麼的方向。"},{"start":64.964,"end":92.692,"text":"嗯,就是行政部門對這事情的關注度不及我們立法委員關注度啦所以我在想說我們今天已經在審這個就是植物診療師法的時候所以我在想說這只是特別點一個狀態就是說如果真的關心的時候腳步要加快好不好那我在想說從2017年開始到現在那我知道說我們之前原本是用那個植物醫生這樣一個名詞那說實話農業部這邊可能也儲備了很多植物醫生請問到目前為止總共有多少人?"},{"start":93.112,"end":114,"text":"我們現在目前在各縣市政府跟各感染場大概有100位的儲備的植物醫師。是,已經有100位的儲備醫生了嘛,對不對?那我想請問一下,我們這個儲備醫生當時在提這個部分的時候,他有特別提到說我們希望從2017年再推這個植物醫生,現在叫植物診療師,那到2027年希望10年的時間能夠讓農藥減半嘛,對不對?請問到目前為止進度如何?"},{"start":122.643,"end":125.185,"text":"我跟委員說明,現在農藥的一個減半,我們是強調在農藥的風險的減半。農藥風險的減半,不是農藥量的減半。對,是農藥風險的一個,就是"},{"start":137.779,"end":140.302,"text":"對於高劇毒的農藥我們會加速它退場那我記得現在目前為止我們的劇毒農藥退場已經達到75%了超過一半了"},{"start":157.222,"end":175.24,"text":"對,因為有一些農藥它用的量可能比較多但是它的風險是比較低的所以我們有針對它的風險只是做加權這也是目前全世界的共同規範所以我們期待說在2007年能夠達到風險減半的目標我們希望還是能夠打草"},{"start":176.161,"end":187.917,"text":"所以是風險減半不是藥量減半嗎?那我想問一下因為像農民在用藥的時候很多都是預防性的下藥那真的在預防性下藥的時候我們植物診療師要怎麼樣子開這個處方?"},{"start":191.327,"end":211.207,"text":" 我跟委員說明一下就是整個病床外的一個防治特別是在床外的時候它會隨著密度會有一個曲線的急速生長期你在這個曲線的急速生長期之前防治才最有效果那太早但太晚都沒有用像預防性的這些噴藥其實對有一些它的會浪費你的農藥的錢"},{"start":212.228,"end":212.368,"text":"ernt6"},{"start":230.282,"end":244.508,"text":"adequure農藥推廣這樣子的一個使命的意思是這樣子嗎是他是一個客製化的一個服務所以他本身是可以開業的那相對的部分就是所以說之後我們對整個植物診療師的一個量"},{"start":247.009,"end":269.557,"text":"就是您原本在預估的時候,當我們開始證照制度之後的時候,大概預計的人數會多少人?我們預估大概是,totally大概是3000人。那這些3000人有一部分會配置在,如果說農會或是縣市政府,他也可以聘請。那聘請的過程中,他可以用一個資訊服務。那我想問一下就是說,針對這個部分,那麼之後,"},{"start":271.678,"end":300.924,"text":"嗯,植物診療師這個部分它的功能強制性有多高是不是農民所有要買農藥的時候都必須要有植物診療師的處方才能夠去買我跟委員說明這是一個錯誤的一個訊息就是在植物診療師他有他的專屬的簽證的範圍那他的專屬權就在簽證就是他可以開立相關的這些這些診斷的證明那現在目前並沒有所謂的"},{"start":301.684,"end":330.775,"text":" bicy 買農藥就一定要診療師要有開診斷,沒有這件事情。所以沒有說買農藥一定要這個植物診療師處方,沒有這樣子的問題,對不對?所以那植物診療師他這當中你怎麼樣去發揮他的影響力,能夠讓他真正達到我們農業部希望他達到的一個使命?我想非常重要的就是植物診療師能夠更精準的診斷他是哪一類的病害,哪一類的蟲藥,那接下來就可以用非常精準的用藥能夠做一個防治。"},{"start":331.195,"end":346.961,"text":"愣另外就是針對這部分我們針對植物診療師之後推到這個市場機制當中的時候會不會增加農民在用藥當中的成本會不會?愣因為有擔心表說處方是不是需要另外付另外一筆費用?愣因為有擔心表說處方是不是需要另外付另外一筆費用?"},{"start":347.261,"end":362.278,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":362.278,"end":377.91,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":377.91,"end":393.353,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":393.413,"end":419.404,"text":"adequ毛小孩認養的人數低那持續的擴大當中那針對這個所謂的寵物溝通師我們農業部有沒有打算要進行一些行政指引或者是管理的一個機制我想跟委員說明就是所謂的寵物溝通師他並沒有真正的所謂的科學的一個證據那基本上我們是不會去認同有這樣的一個溝通師到目前為止"},{"start":420.384,"end":444.206,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":444.206,"end":468.831,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":469.151,"end":497.39,"text":"最後我想特別提一個狀態就是農業部在113年度的投資收益預算數比112年度的預算數減少2億036萬2千元減幅高達24.6%我在想說這個部分我去看了一下裡面的分析其中跟台肥有關我想說你們認為台肥的投資收益明顯減少的部分跟我們今天在推的植物診療師有沒有關係"},{"start":498.531,"end":518.633,"text":" 我跟委員報告,就是台肥本身的盈餘有一些降低,最主要是它在COVID-19整個原物料上漲的時候,它吸收了50%的原物料的一個成本,上漲的一個成本,讓我們的農民可以買到原價的肥料。"},{"start":519.093,"end":532.924,"text":" bicy,他這個部分算是一個社會的一個經驗診斷。所以113年度農業部這邊的一個投資社會的預算數大幅減低的時候,你覺得是跟我們今天要推的就是植物診療師這部分是沒有關係的?因為他本身台北不賣農藥。"},{"start":534.538,"end":534.878,"text":"閱讀《台肥有賣農藥》"}]}},{"id":"153907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153907","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba01a081c6a89d5d458737265a8c4a9dd74f0c311de3a91f948d45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:06:36 - 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09:21:27","影片長度":"00:09:59","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:11:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:21:27+08:00","duration":599,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":37,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時11分）謝謝召委，有請葉丙成次長。"],["主席：請葉次長。"],["葉次長丙成：委員早。"],["萬委員美玲：次長早，你第一次來備詢，有緊張嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：有。"],["萬委員美玲：有緊張？你放輕鬆，我們今天會好好來討論一些教育議題，沒有那麼緊張，我們教育及文化委員會是很peace的，好嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：好。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，您上任以來有沒有注意到大漢技術學院的這個案件？"],["葉次長丙成：有，我想這個部分媒體都有……"],["萬委員美玲：大漢技術學院的董事會在今年2月無預警的，它是無預警的宣布自113年起，依照私校法它要停招，在114年它要停辦，這件事引起，我想全國都有在關注這件事情，師生也非常的不滿，我請教一下次長，大漢技術學院目前有沒有體質差的狀況？包括財務惡化、師資不足，或者學生受教權益檢核不通過，有沒有？"],["葉次長丙成：沒有、沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：都沒有？好，所以對於大漢的董事會，大家都在說，疑似是要規避日後他們的校產被依照私校退場條例清算，所以它用先斬後奏的方式來突襲，依據私校法第七十一條停招而且改辦，這種作法其實是不顧教職員跟學生的權益，也讓教育部措手不及啦。剛剛次長也講到了，他們沒有以上這三項問題，我們也知道，其實它如果要依照不管是私校法第七十條、第七十一條等等，都應該要先提出計畫，要先來報准才能夠往下做，那它現在的作法真的倒行逆施到這種程度，完全沒有報准，然後自行對外就宣布它要停招、它要停辦，對於這樣的一個作法，教育部現在要怎麼做？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，我想就是如委員所說的，這個停辦計畫目前我們還沒有，因為它沒有報部，所以我們還沒有……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，其實大漢董事會在上禮拜三有再召開過校務會議，但是高教工會有說，因為他們現在自救嘛，但教育部看起來好像沒有辦法幫他們，他們有過半數的教師是加入工會的，所以到現在為止，校方是沒有辦法把停辦計畫送出來。另外，校長為了要達成他自己要送出停辦計畫書的這個目的，所以他也更換了校務會議的委員，並且把工會原來的行政職務也解職了，總之，他用各種方式就是要自行的停辦、停招，對於這樣的一個作法，請問一下，從事情發生到現在，教育部有沒有去溝通，瞭解，看看它有沒有違法？"],["葉次長丙成：等到他們這個停辦計畫如果送上來，我們會嚴格審視它這個程序有沒有合乎規定……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，你等它的這個送上來，其實它沒有送上來就已經對外說它要停招、停辦了，現在的問題不是要等它送上來，這樣子教育部的作法太慢了！"],["葉次長丙成：這個它並沒有……我們的瞭解是這個並不是他們在對外講，因為我覺得我們……"],["萬委員美玲：它沒有對外講，那請問一下，它今年還要繼續續招、續辦嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我們要先看到它的停辦計畫……"],["萬委員美玲：它今年還會續辦、續招嗎？你能保證它今年會續辦、續招？"],["葉次長丙成：我請司長來補充一下。"],["楊司長玉惠：跟委員報告，今年（113）學年度能不能停招，當然要等部裡面核定，它才能夠確定停招。"],["萬委員美玲：所以現在沒有核定，我請教一下，它今年會不會續招嘛！"],["楊司長玉惠：我們還沒有核定前，它當然可以續招。"],["萬委員美玲：好，司長，如果今年在你沒有核定前它就停招了，有沒有違法？"],["楊司長玉惠：跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：有沒有違法？告訴我就好。"],["楊司長玉惠：當然有違法啊。"],["萬委員美玲：好，次長，請教一下，如果違法的話，我們教育部要怎麼做？"],["葉次長丙成：如果違法的話，我們當然是要依照私校法來處理啊。"],["萬委員美玲：怎麼處理？"],["葉次長丙成：我請司長補充。"],["楊司長玉惠：跟委員報告，假如針對停招這一個事由，我們當然要看它違反……"],["萬委員美玲：你告訴我怎麼處理就好，今天時間非常有限。"],["楊司長玉惠：目前就我們所知道的，他們已經有在招，因為他們學校是單招……"],["萬委員美玲：所以司長的意思是說，媒體說它對外要停招停辦，這都是媒體亂說的，這個都是空穴來風，您現在的意思是這樣嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：不是，不是空穴來風。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那如果它今年是停招的情況，我們要怎麼去處理它？因為剛剛司長也說這個違法了嘛，那要怎麼處理？"],["楊司長玉惠：是。"],["萬委員美玲：次長也說違法了，要怎麼處理？"],["楊司長玉惠：因為學校可以單招，所以我們還是會讓它單招，因為學校從110學年開始就已經是單招，它不參加聯招，所以它的時間只要在開學前……"],["萬委員美玲：司長，如果是這樣的話，它的計畫書現在還沒有送上來……"],["楊司長玉惠：還沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：你也還沒有核准它，如果它停招有違法的話，教育部一定要出面……"],["楊司長玉惠：是，會。"],["萬委員美玲：我想此例不可開啊！私校退場條例出來，很多私校其實都在擔心未來私校退場以後校產充公，如果這個案子你們沒有好好處理的話，會引起連鎖效應。剛才次長在報告的時候也講到少子化，少子化，現在我們私校擔憂，如果群起效尤，以後每一個人說不辦就不辦，請問一下，我們學子的權益跟教職員的權益往哪來做保障呢？因為今天的時間真的非常有限，我希望在會後司長能再到我辦公室來，我們把大漢的案子說清楚講明白。","最後還是要用一點時間，這個時間真的非常珍貴，我請教一下次長。次長，我直接問你今天本席要問的一個部分，就是您剛才也有提到你要提出一個三加二的新五專模式，科大可以跟高職合作，無論是用合併或雙聯學位的方法，專一、專二、專三在高職就讀，專四、專五在科大。你這個案子一出來，這幾天不管是各個學校的校長或是老師、家長，我們大家一頭霧水啊。我請教一下，這是一個確定的案子嗎？你有跟高職或專科或科大開過會嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：這是一個構想，我們在內部有討論過。"],["萬委員美玲：就只是內部討論，完全都還沒有跟相關的學校開過會？"],["葉次長丙成：還沒。"],["萬委員美玲：完全都沒有？"],["葉次長丙成：嗯。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，本席在這裡真的要糾正喔，您今天已經是次長了，教育的政策，記得本席曾跟您說過，一定不能一直翻轉一直翻轉，你這樣拼命翻轉到最後會翻車啊，你知道嗎？我們過去20年教改改得太厲害了，所以我們應該要先確定方向、微調，現在教育部在開這部車子不能猛踩油門，你要先確定方向嘛，如果你都還沒有跟科大、高職或教育單位溝通協調過，對外就開始講三加二的新五專模式，本席覺得不太好喔！","我再請教一下，現在這個新五專模式，你們說在內部開過會了嘛，將來上路的時候有沒有涉及修法？還是現行的法規就可以作業？"],["葉次長丙成：我們是用現行的法規就可以作業的。"],["萬委員美玲：現行的法規就可以作業？好，那我請教一下，三加二，高職念了三年、科大念二年，未來誰要去三加四？"],["葉次長丙成：因為三加四跟這個三加二，我覺得最大差別在於，三加四很多不管是二合一或三合一都是建教合作，進了科大之後要邊工作邊讀書，事實上在就業、在學生的市場裡面，其實有不少的學生不見得……"],["萬委員美玲：你說邊讀書是指三加二還是三加四？"],["葉次長丙成：三加四。"],["萬委員美玲：我跟你說，當然是有，但是不是全部啊，所以你今天把三加二推出來，我就請教一下，未來三加四的部分，誰要去讀？會不會造成……"],["葉次長丙成：還是會推啊！"],["萬委員美玲：科大其實現在也是很擔憂，你要推三加二，它本來可以收四年的學生現在變成二年，這也是一個問題，你有沒有考慮過？"],["葉次長丙成：這兩個是並行的，我們並沒有要去取代，沒有要取代，所以是……"],["萬委員美玲：好，那請教一下，如果沒有要去取代，現在到底是叫做合併還是叫做合作？"],["葉次長丙成：合作。"],["萬委員美玲：是合作，不是合併？"],["葉次長丙成：對。"],["萬委員美玲：如果是合作，你剛剛說的雙聯學位怎麼來？怎麼拿？"],["葉次長丙成：就是技高的時候，技高的雙聯學位跟二專的雙聯學位這樣合在一起。"],["萬委員美玲：他到底要拿哪一個學位？"],["葉次長丙成：二個學位都拿。"],["萬委員美玲：如果三加二畢業以後，他的學位拿的是什麼？"],["葉次長丙成：二專的學位。"],["萬委員美玲：拿的是二專的學位？"],["葉次長丙成：副學士的學位。"],["萬委員美玲：所以他就不會原來高職的學位？"],["葉次長丙成：會，也會有。"],["萬委員美玲：也會有？"],["葉次長丙成：對。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，對於你這個三加二，我還要再問一件，到時候到底是科大去找高職還是高職去找科大？還是教育部做媒人？是哪一種？"],["葉次長丙成：其實像這個政策推出之後，舉例來講，已經有科大跟我們說，當地的高職、技高已經在找他們合作，所以我們其實是希望科大跟高職一起合作去招生。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有那個一起合作啦，一定是一起合作嘛，政策出來就是叫他們一起合作嘛，那到底是科大要主動去找高職合作，還是高職找科大合作，還是你有一套政策，你可以幫助他們用什麼方式去做媒合嗎？這很重要呀！"],["葉次長丙成：我們不會由上而下去逼他們，其實就是他們認為這個垂直的整合，如果幫助他們在招生方面，相對於高中生，在招生的時候比較有吸引力的是三加二，這個其實是他們可以自己去媒合的，我們並沒有要強迫他們去做這個事情，沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我想這個強迫不來，而且我也相信你這個政策的出發點是好意、是美意，但是本席還是要提醒您以及新上任的部長，剛上來真的不要像過去歷任的部長一樣，每一個部長上來好像都要改一下才代表自己是有教育的遠見，我們真的要循規蹈矩、按部就班來做。三加二這個政策沒有不好，但是我看起來根本就還沒有一個完整的架構出來，我們希望能夠更完整，然後也跟相關利害人做溝通之後，再把這個政策對外宣布，我覺得這樣會比較好一些。所以本席希望你們會後找個時間，不管是三加二以及剛剛大漢的案子，今天時間不夠，希望你們會後能夠到本席辦公室，我們再來討論得更清楚，好嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：好，沒問題。謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬委員，謝謝次長。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：接下來請柯志恩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","林倩綺","葛如鈞","葉元之","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","賴士葆","林思銘","陳亭妃","翁曉玲","范雲","羅智強","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","吳春城"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":7.152218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.98659375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.72034375,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.04096875,"end":17.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.93534375,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.09971875,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.95596875,"end":24.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":37.510343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.58409375,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.99971875,"end":40.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.88971875,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.15159375,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.19784375,"end":108.11534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.26284375,"end":116.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.64159375000001,"end":155.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.12471875,"end":162.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.33471875,"end":163.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.92096875000001,"end":173.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.75909375,"end":173.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.86034375,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.64409375000002,"end":180.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.72846875000002,"end":183.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.44096875000002,"end":186.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.29721875,"end":190.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.31409375,"end":186.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.07284375,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.76034375,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":194.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.81909375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.18909375,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.02346875,"end":214.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.64284375000003,"end":216.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.55409375000002,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.57096875000002,"end":218.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.58784375000002,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.35971875,"end":218.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.98346875000001,"end":226.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.84784375,"end":227.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.52284375000002,"end":227.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.10471875000002,"end":231.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.10846875000001,"end":243.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.04846875,"end":239.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.36409375000002,"end":245.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.49471875,"end":246.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.54534375000003,"end":246.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.65909375,"end":247.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.03034375000001,"end":259.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.24409375,"end":256.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.56471875,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.51346875,"end":264.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.43721875,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.03846875,"end":326.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.82721875000004,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.04659375,"end":278.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.70409375,"end":283.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.15096875,"end":285.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.52409375,"end":361.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.54409375,"end":364.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.80096875000004,"end":364.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.83471875000004,"end":369.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.08721875000003,"end":369.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.69471875000005,"end":414.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.54846875000004,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.79284375000003,"end":424.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.09534375000004,"end":443.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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那我請教一下3加2高職念了這個三年 科大念兩年那未來誰要去3加4"},{"start":425.254,"end":427.455,"text":"你說邊讀書是指3加2還是3加4?我跟你說當然是有 但是不是全部阿"},{"start":449.422,"end":472.307,"text":"所以你今天把3加2推出來我就請教一下未來3加4的部分誰要去讀那會不會造成科大其實現在也是很擔憂那3加2那本來可以收4年的學生現在變成2年這也是一個問題你有沒有考慮過這兩個是並行的我們沒有要去取代沒有要取代那請教一下如果我們沒有要去取代現在到底是叫做合併還是叫做合作"},{"start":473.808,"end":474.629,"text":"他到底要拿哪一個學位?"},{"start":489.605,"end":491.826,"text":"你到時候到底是科大去找高職還是高職去找科大還是教育部做媒人是哪一種"},{"start":510.56,"end":534.315,"text":"他們倆其實像這個政策推出後舉例來講像已經有科大跟我們講說當地的高職技高就已經在找他們合作所以我們其實是希望科大跟高職一起合作去招生沒有那個一起合作啦一定是一起合作嘛你政策出來你就叫他們一起合作嘛那到底是科大要主動去找高職合作還是高職找科大合作還是你有一套政策你可以幫助他們用什麼方式去做媒合嘛這很重要呀"},{"start":535.683,"end":537.504,"text":"我們並沒有要強迫他們去做這個事情 沒有"},{"start":554.296,"end":575.755,"text":"市長我想強迫不來而且我也相信你這個政策的出發點是好意是美意但是本期還是要提醒您以及新上任的部長我們剛上來真的不要像過去歷任的部長一樣每一個部長上來好像都要改一下才代表自己是有這個教育的遠見我們真的要循規蹈矩按部就班來做那3加2這個政策沒有不好"},{"start":576.516,"end":576.656,"text":"好,沒問題,謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba009f7666b29cea1438ff7e0bc1ebc5021f0c311de3a91f948210c2463ee6481985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:15:25 - 09:19:15","影片長度":"00:03:50","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra 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«警察人員人事條例第三二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":127.912,"end":151.487,"text":"當然我剛才也有聽到我們應該是內政部他所提到的也就是過去呢在警察的範圍裡面必不包含我們的像是海巡人員或者移民署但是我們在這邊要特別的提到比如說像我們的移民署的這個官員事實上他們過去就是從警察分出來的"},{"start":152.908,"end":173.69,"text":"你看現在很多的移民署退休的官員他們事實上過去也是警察只是因為我們的組織的編制的改變然後被分出來之後他又要從警察分出去所以我們現在變成一個國家不是一國兩制喔"},{"start":174.19,"end":176.211,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":194.7,"end":204.643,"text":"還有包含這個我們的內政部的空中勤務總隊的這些的弟兄這些同仁也能夠納入一併的跟他們保障我真覺得就是我們國家社會對於執行這些同樣危險同樣重要的人物我們應該一視同仁而不應該把他們去一直區分最後會出現了"},{"start":222.349,"end":229.969,"text":"四等公民三等公民這不是我們一個國家社會應該給予這些弟兄的對待以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153904","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153904","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba05f27d08c0e8445b58ff7e0bc1ebc5021f0c311de3a91f9487928a3d90b696a425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"09:10:21 - 09:12:10","影片長度":"00:01:49","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:10:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:12:10+08:00","duration":109,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":79.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.35596875,"end":108.16596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.07,"end":1.164,"text":"法務委員進行提案說明。"},{"start":19.082,"end":21.904,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":42.697,"end":69.546,"text":"通常影響到他們的身心健康這些特性也使得他們工作危險性其實不亞於一般的公務人員甚至更高可能這些情況修正相關法令來提供適當的保障其實對於他們來講非常重要目前我國現行法令對於警察消防海巡移民等人員的退休所的替代率與國軍相比時還發現確實立即需要相對應的一個修正來提供更公平的一個保障"},{"start":70.186,"end":98.821,"text":"所以這些人員的貢獻跟承受的風險應該要得到公平以及應有的尊重跟回饋來保障他們退休後的一個生活保障所以對此還有這些特殊性質的公務人員我們應該重新評估其所得替代率還是確保他們在工作退休之後能夠得到合理的照顧及支持這些條件有助於提高公務人員的工作動力及生活品質同時也對他們的辛勞的工作是一種公平跟肯定跟尊重"},{"start":99.381,"end":107.113,"text":"所以本席提出的警察人員人事條例第三十五條修正草案就是為了好好照顧辛苦奉獻無失的公務人員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153903","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153903","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba03b23c2de6c3b840c79c37d5c63265337f0c311de3a91f94845aab92cddae9f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:12:59 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09:15:48","影片長度":"00:02:49","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:12:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:15:48+08:00","duration":169,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.28409375000000003,"end":4.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.025343750000001,"end":11.067218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.438468750000002,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.21784375,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":51.820343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.41096875,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.17346875,"end":169.45596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.747,"end":3.039,"text":"我們接下來請提案委員進行提案說明。我們先請楊瓊瓔委員。"},{"start":9.599,"end":35.331,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊瓔法院本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人有鑒於近年民眾食安意識的提高培養國人專業農業之能與正確的飲食觀念刻不容緩又加上我國地形氣候獨特溫熱帶作物均可栽種意識和各類有害生物生長的繁殖"},{"start":35.811,"end":52.363,"text":""},{"start":52.463,"end":54.084,"text":"議員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚"},{"start":74.258,"end":85.244,"text":"​​以確保農民施藥的安全降低生產成本減少農藥的殘留讓我國優秀的農產品得以更順利的銷售到全世界所以您擬具了植物診療師法草案那也敬請行政部門以及各位同仁大家來參酌而且同意之那麼同時在這個的背景裡頭最重要的在上一屆因為植物醫師法"},{"start":103.514,"end":120.26,"text":"當然這個醫師跟目前我們的八大行業的這個醫師那有所名稱模糊所以呢我們經過了協商以醫師是不妥的所以呢在協商的過程當中來改為植物診療師這是第一點來說明第二個在我們的農藥行是我們國家的寶貝所以因此植物診療師他並不能販售農藥"},{"start":130.503,"end":147.381,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":147.381,"end":169.531,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"}]}},{"id":"153902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153902","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba09a8bff83a0db0d4f8ff7e0bc1ebc5021f0c311de3a91f948dd19aba2380f10335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"09:08:37 - 09:10:17","影片長度":"00:01:40","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:08:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:10:17+08:00","duration":100,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4822187500000001,"end":2.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.712843750000001,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.869093750000005,"end":67.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.46346875,"end":99.25596875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.513,"end":2.167,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10.748,"end":36.007,"text":"主席各位委員大家好分析所提的警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案所提案說明有建立警察人員特殊的勤務與一般公務人員有很大不同實在不適應用同樣的退休金制度警察消防人員的工作具有高危險性與高壓力"},{"start":37.048,"end":64.188,"text":"根據一項統計數字,106年至111年間因公殉職人員就有47人,消防人員也在十年內殉職三十幾位同仁。另外,可以發現警消人員退休後,平均受孕比一般人平均更低。這些不幸的數字都代表他們應該獲得國家更好、更合理的退休照顧。"},{"start":65.009,"end":92.579,"text":"另外總和這些原因警察人員的工作性質明顯與國軍更為接近所以提出退休金制度應比照國軍退休條例故予文法修訂警察人員退休所得替代率年資滿15年者所得替代率至45%期每一年增加所得替代率增加2%"},{"start":94.6,"end":98.433,"text":"最高應百分之九十五為上限以上報告謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0d7edb553d9c229a6fbe526107114d706f0c311de3a91f9487cb136f02ab460f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:07:58 - 09:10:08","影片長度":"00:02:10","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n(一)委員林德福等19人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員馬文君等25人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員涂權吉等17人擬具「就業服務法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃建賓等20人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條及第五十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員盧縣一等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員王育敏等17人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n(一)委員張嘉郡等30人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員王鴻薇等22人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n(一)委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n(二)委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【二(一)及(二)，如經復議，則不予審查；二(三)，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:07:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:10:08+08:00","duration":130,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-21"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.16534375,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.687843750000003,"end":9.852218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.14721875,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.10846875,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.26846875,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.669093750000002,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.15409375,"end":25.512218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.153468750000002,"end":26.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.23346875,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.70596875,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.418468750000002,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.51534375,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.502218750000004,"end":37.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.337218750000005,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.48034375,"end":42.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.11284375,"end":44.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.80034375,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.20034375,"end":51.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.22534375,"end":54.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.494718750000004,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.55221875000001,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.10471875,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.94409375000001,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.07034375,"end":75.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.98534375,"end":76.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.72346875000001,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.73096875,"end":84.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.79409375,"end":89.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.04221875,"end":92.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.40034375,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.21784375000001,"end":129.36096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.396,"end":25.225,"text":"主席、各位委員、我們勞動部長及所有的官員。這個原住民族的失業率還有就業率跟非原住民仍然有很大的落差。"},{"start":26.209,"end":54.572,"text":"所以在這個切工切料的一個年代對於這個外籍勞工的禁用固然有它的一個需要但是怎麼樣去兼顧原住民的就業的機會所以我特別在這個第46條的增加一項的規定對於營造業僱主要這個禁用外籍的勞工"},{"start":56.567,"end":68.659,"text":"我們歡迎他們禁用,但是也必須考量到原住民就業的一個機會所以特別增訂這樣的一個條文另外就是針對第46條有關家庭幫傭及康復工作"},{"start":77.779,"end":77.799,"text":"案。"},{"start":93.453,"end":108.525,"text":"條文修正草案：立法院第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第12會期社會福利"},{"start":112.749,"end":129.142,"text":"章家俊委員等很多位的委員上次這個召委在這邊安排的時候有很有不同的意見希望能夠今天能夠有一個突破謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝鄭天才委員的說明"}]}},{"id":"153900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0c175d85a0bf077368ff7e0bc1ebc5021f0c311de3a91f948551992b9489857505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"09:04:42 - 09:08:23","影片長度":"00:03:41","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:04:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:08:23+08:00","duration":221,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.353468750000001,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.47096875,"end":20.399093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.660343750000003,"end":24.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.870968750000003,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.31784375,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.12346875,"end":29.612843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.794093750000002,"end":31.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.90346875,"end":34.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.81034375,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.565343750000004,"end":37.392218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.16409375,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.463468750000004,"end":41.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.11284375,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.150343750000005,"end":49.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.305343750000006,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.22471875,"end":57.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.844718750000006,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.532218750000006,"end":60.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.94096875,"end":64.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.67034375,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.84284375,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.42909375,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.23409375,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.44846875,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.11909375,"end":84.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.78971875,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.99596875,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.20221875,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.22721875,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.85971875,"end":98.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.25596875000001,"end":100.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.94346875000001,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.01471875,"end":104.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.78221875000001,"end":109.53284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.98846875000001,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.04721875000001,"end":112.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.22846875,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.92846875000001,"end":117.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.50596875000001,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.74534375,"end":127.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.19221875,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.25096875,"end":132.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.00159375,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.73534375,"end":137.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.28346875,"end":140.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.48971875,"end":145.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.94034375,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.44596875000002,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.09971875000002,"end":155.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.13721875000002,"end":157.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.84159375000002,"end":161.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.70159375,"end":167.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.08909375000002,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.61159375,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.17659375000002,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.58971875,"end":179.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.62721875,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.39909375000002,"end":184.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.33096875,"end":187.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.33909375000002,"end":189.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.63409375,"end":193.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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Kacaw等16人擬具「就業服務法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n(一)委員許宇甄等22人擬具「老人福利法增訂第二十二條之一條文草案」案。\n(二)委員馬文君等16人擬具「老人福利法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員張嘉郡等20人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)國民黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員黃健豪等17人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「老人福利法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「老人福利法第二十二條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【二(一)及(二)，如經復議，則不予審查；二(三)，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【本次會議逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:05:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:07:54+08:00","duration":140,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-21"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.953468750000003,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.83221875,"end":140.59971875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.177,"end":38.499,"text":"主席各位委員二零二五年也就是明年臺灣就會正式進入超高齡社會隨著我們的福勞比上升對於營法族的照護需求會越來越大本席就所提的就業服務法第四十六條修正草案做說明主要就是要讓八十歲以上的長者能夠不用再申請巴士量表就得以聘用外籍看護移工依現行法規"},{"start":39.219,"end":66.087,"text":"條文要求要申請家庭看護工需提供巴氏量表的評估結果。去年選前,衛福部宣布放寬政策,包括一、使用長照持續6個月以上,二、經醫師評估失智症輕度以上,三、擴大特定身心障礙免評對象。以上這三項都可以經醫療機構評估失能情況,不需要巴氏量表。"},{"start":66.727,"end":76.113,"text":"但是呢即便如此呢稍微放寬了這些門檻很多突發案例還是緩不及急如果85歲老人家突然跌倒骨折要開刀還要申請外籍看護需要醫院就醫三個月以上還要經門診醫師開立證明對於高齡長者突發狀況多"},{"start":90.683,"end":109.701,"text":"對醫療的依賴也比較高。如果是在短時間內發生的意外請問如何有持續就醫的記錄?如何有使用長照半年以上的記錄?因此衛福部去年開放的這些限制沒有考量到這些突發狀況。因此我提出本席提出就業服務法"},{"start":111.923,"end":136.496,"text":"第四十六條草案修正增列放寬條件讓80歲以上的長者有看護需求者得以免除巴氏量表尤其在少子化的今天放寬這樣的規定可以減輕輕壯家屬的負擔不要讓突發的照護需求變成壓倒家屬的最後一根稻草請各位委員予以支持謝謝好謝謝張家俊委員的說明現在我們請"}]}},{"id":"153898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153898","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba08d2ab6c9e7f308238ff7e0bc1ebc5021f0c311de3a91f9489b6e307be05129615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:02:01 - 09:04:35","影片長度":"00:02:34","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T09:02:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T09:04:35+08:00","duration":154,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.907218750000002,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.93659375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.15971875,"end":15.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.011593750000003,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.39409375,"end":64.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.35409375,"end":70.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.47971875,"end":79.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.37721875000001,"end":85.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.67159375,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.74284375,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.41346875,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.47596875,"end":97.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.10846875,"end":101.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.10784375,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.67721875000001,"end":125.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.08721875,"end":129.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.73221875000002,"end":134.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.25034375,"end":143.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.05909375000002,"end":144.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.98721875,"end":153.03659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.979,"end":17.226,"text":"主席各位同仁還有列席的官員們大家早安那今天審查"},{"start":25.441,"end":47.049,"text":"今天審查警察人員人事條例第三十五條本期是提案人有鑒於警察、消防及海巡人員等工作性質非常特殊必須24小時輪值輪班,運功性質死亡三殘人數明顯高於一般公務員"},{"start":48.129,"end":69.826,"text":"又兼具國家第二陸軍第二海軍的性質尤其兩岸緊張對峙導致戰爭風險提高加上111年兩名警察遇襲殺警案等等第一線嚴謹面臨槍擊事件層出不窮處於高危血情職務所得替代力應該比照國軍"},{"start":71.55,"end":96.968,"text":"重上所述警察消防海巡人員前年無休為行政院因應大陸武力犯台,擴編警政保護總隊成為第二陸軍,警政署海巡署為第二海軍,再再表明軍警互為表裡互相支援的高度一致性,原兩者之退休金"},{"start":98.214,"end":124.837,"text":"制度應相互參照,不予偏袒,滋生爭議,另外警察人員平日辛勞,用生命捍衛社會治安,台灣地區公共秩序及社會安全,各國評比都名列世界前茅,間接促進國家觀光及經濟發展,為警察、全體警察人員、消防人員、海巡人員對國家的卓越貢獻。"},{"start":126.218,"end":152.461,"text":"另外警察人員一生辛苦結果平均壽命只有69歲我是一個臨床心臟外科醫師69歲我們現在的平均壽命是81歲折損10年以上比我們外科醫師的壽命還短所以本期在這邊提案將警察消防海巡人員退休所得地台禮筆照國軍希望大家支持以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba08886a33635831f0d8ff7e0bc1ebc5021ff818a7b9e5fd5b12615cb29b12c03265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"12:45:08 - 12:53:35","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T12:45:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:53:35+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1041,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（12時45分）感謝主席，現場的各位官員、各位委員同仁，大家好。我請人事總處副人事長跟內政部次長。"],["主席：請副人事長、次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：次長好。今天我們調整警察人員退休金的制度，行政院跟警消人員的長官可以簡單說明立場嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們現在對現職的消防跟警察人員，已經有16項對職業安全跟津貼的部分都有提高。在制度設計上面，我們現職的警消同仁的撫卹跟退休，都比一般的公務人員還要好，以目前的制度是都比現在的公務人員還要好，但是沒有軍人這麼好沒有錯，因為我們跟軍人職務的狀態是不一樣的。也跟委員報告，如果照現在我們提出的數字，就是所得替代率如果提高到跟軍方一樣，會造成警消人員可能大量離職。"],["丁委員學忠：次長，軍人是守護我們國家的安全，但是警察跟消防人員，你會不會想到當他們進行臨檢敲車窗門的時候，車窗門打開，是什麼？如果是一隻槍伸出來，這個警察的生命是不是會受到威脅？當消防人員衝進火場的時候，是否有辦法保證他們有辦法順利出來？隨時隨地在執勤的時候，他們都是有生命危險，所以這就是他們應該得的。","現在我們要給你提議的，就是他們退休的所得替代率的部分，我在這邊跟你們提醒，106年度政府開了年改的國是會議，沒有聽到警消跟公務人員的意見，忙著操作年齡世代的對立，這幾年來退休人員每一年都砍到退休金，生活保障出問題，我們這屆立委來到立法院，就是要提案幫他們爭取應該有的退休尊嚴，對政府過去不合理大砍公教的退休金政策，提出再修改的要求。次長、警政署及消防署署長你們3位，你們是警察人員的長官，應該聽到他們的意見，幫他們爭取權利，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，是，我們方向上都是一樣的。"],["丁委員學忠：今年還沒過完，警察人員就7個自殺，過去10年總共有52位，代表警察的工作壓力有多大。我也要跟消防署署長請教，消防人員這19年來，已經損失45位消防弟兄，上個月才2個在新竹救火殉職，這種不幸的事情大家都不想要看到，但是證明了一件事情，警察人員跟消防人員的工作內容是高危險度跟高辛勞度，和公務人員不一樣，很多制度都應該要另外檢視，請問次長跟署長同意嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，謝謝委員對消防人員的重視，其實在職人員跟退休人員在同步進行當中，而在職人員我們投入更多的心力，最近就是有23個計畫要給第一線消防人員裝備器材、職業安全這些的保障。"],["丁委員學忠：這都是應該的。"],["蕭署長煥章：都核定了，所以謝謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：我幫你們回想一下，6年前年改法案討論的時候，內政部沒討論退休金刪減的合理性，只是忙著爭論警察退休之後他的平均年齡可以活到幾歲，都在討論這個，實際上警消退休的平均壽命只有70歲左右，比國人80歲低很多，證明警消人員退休的制度應該要更加合理，更加符合現實。除了退休之後健康照顧的問題，在職的警察退休年齡比一般公務人員早很多，是不是這樣？這樣對吧？"],["蕭署長煥章：對。"],["丁委員學忠：這就是因為什麼？因為平常他們在執勤的時候，任務太重，身體負荷不了，所以他們都會提早退休。在這邊也跟署長和次長報告，警消人員我們都很照顧沒有錯，薪水及福利都比公務人員還要好，這也沒有錯，但是他們日夜顛倒、全日待命，長期下來身體負荷不了，連他們最需要的退休生活，我們要給他照顧，這不能不支持。所以我在這裡拜託次長及兩位署長，是不是能支持警消人員比照國軍所得替代率的這個案件？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，因為制度有兼顧行政院在設計的時候還有考試在設計的時候的衡平性，所以現在就是對退休人員的照顧方向我們都贊成，但是細節部分，譬如數字或是所得替代率要怎麼樣解決，可能還要再討論，要有社會共識，不然一個數字這樣決定下去，基金如果不平衡，會造成對其他公務人員是不公平的事情。"],["丁委員學忠：好，次長，時間有限。內政部跟行政院的長官要重視警消人員過勞跟保障不足的問題，更加為他們爭取合理的退休保障，考試院只會不斷重複基金會破產，也沒看到比較精算的數字，沒有精算的數字大家要怎麼檢視財務狀況到底是怎樣？希望考試院可以做更加詳細的退休基金數字說明，讓大家可以共同來討論。","最後在這邊我也要強調，我們都支持合理的年改制度，我們都支持合理的，但是在職跟退休人員都有長久以來退休金都可以領取，但不是大刀一砍，造成他們長年來的生活，我常常遇到退休的警消朋友，很認真在爬山，我問說你怎麼這麼認真運動？他們說如果不多照顧一點身體，年金被砍成這樣，到真的身體病痛的時候，要請外勞時那些錢也不夠，對不對？所以我們就要顧到他們退休人員基本的權益跟生活保障，希望考試院跟行政院都可以支持，一起做合理的、整體的年改方案，再拜託大家，謝謝，感謝主席，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請廖偉翔委員、廖偉翔委員、廖偉翔委員。","再下一位請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.920343750000001,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.032843750000001,"end":16.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.31096875,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.10721875,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.74346875,"end":42.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.70346875,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.57659375,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.610343750000006,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.17971875,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.580343750000004,"end":69.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.09596875,"end":75.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.83346875000001,"end":101.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.05596875,"end":83.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.88034375000001,"end":128.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.38221875000002,"end":185.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.94284375,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.09034375000002,"end":199.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.89846875,"end":203.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.27346875,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.29034375,"end":203.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.50971875000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.41721875000002,"end":276.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.96721875000003,"end":319.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.99784375,"end":322.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.06096875000003,"end":321.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.84971875,"end":323.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.68909375000004,"end":326.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.32159375000003,"end":335.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.64096875,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.56721875,"end":356.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.12284375,"end":363.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.22721875,"end":375.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.47846875000005,"end":385.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.02971875000003,"end":386.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.34596875,"end":388.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.30346875000004,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.02596875,"end":414.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.24471875,"end":464.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.59971875,"end":466.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.33346875,"end":487.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.24596875000003,"end":507.07409375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.973,"end":17.705,"text":"感謝主席。我們現場各位官員、各位委員、同仁、大家好。我請我們這個人事總署副人事長以及內政副次長。好,次長。委員好。次長好。今天我們這個"},{"start":30.985,"end":39.572,"text":"條準警察人員的退休金的制度,我們是,我們行政委跟我們經銷人員的長官,我們可以簡單來說明說,我們這個立條嗎?"},{"start":46.015,"end":68.37,"text":"該委員報告,就是我們現在對於現職的消防及警察人員,我們已經有十六項,對於職業安全及津貼的部份都有提供。在制度的社區定管,我們在限職的警消同仁及他的輔助及退休,都比一般的公務人員更好。"},{"start":70.191,"end":74.955,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":99.935,"end":104.798,"text":"我在這裏,市長,那些軍人是修復我們國家的安全,但是警察和消防人員,你可不可以想到說,我們今天執行任期的時候,扣這個條文,條文開了,是甚麼?若一機槍刀出來,我們這個警察死命先受到危險。我們當這個發動的時候,我們的消防人員,像你那樣發動,我們有辦法保證他們有辦法順利出來。"},{"start":128.433,"end":129.073,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":147.679,"end":150.4,"text":"一）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．事由．委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．事由．委員"},{"start":170.669,"end":171.37,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":185.998,"end":193.18,"text":"一）立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":209.685,"end":212.806,"text":"過去十年總共有五十二位,大家在警察的工作惡劣,惡劣是有多大。我可以向消防署長請教一下,我們消防人員等這19年來已經損失到我們四十五位的消防弟兄,經過這兩天的審訊,"},{"start":230.671,"end":236.196,"text":"發揮來殉職,而這部份的事情大家都沒有想要看到,但是正因一件事,警察人員及消防人員,他們的工作內容是高危險度及高辛勞度,不一樣,像這個公務人員都不一樣,這些制度應該是要人員來檢視,請問我們次長及署長這樣你們有同意嗎?"},{"start":255.575,"end":272.11,"text":"感謝委員感謝委員對小黃這麼重視其實在職人員、退休人員同步在進行當中那在職人員我們投注更多的心力最近就是有23個月要給地線消防人員的裝備器材、職業安全這些保障"},{"start":272.691,"end":273.151,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":291.67,"end":300.133,"text":"三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員等19人擬具"},{"start":320.04,"end":320.42,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":349.256,"end":374.054,"text":"日月顛倒、全日待命、登基落愛、身體復康未到、年齡最需要的退休的生活,我們要照顧,我們不能不給他們支持。所以在此,我在此要拜託我們市長、我們兩位署長,我們先來支持我們的警察人員與照國軍所得替代力這個案件。"},{"start":376.65,"end":391.267,"text":"兩位委員報告,因為這個制度有整個行政在設計的時候,還有科技在設計的時候的一個彭平性。所以我們現在就是說,我們對著退休人員的照顧這個風雄,我們都贊成。"},{"start":394.531,"end":412.047,"text":"但是細節不分譬如說稍例或是說這個所得替代率要怎麼來改觀這可能還要討論要有社會共識不然若一個稍例我們割下去我們割下去後我們的基金若不平衡會造成說我們對其他的公務人員會不公平的事情好 市長時間有限齁"},{"start":414.389,"end":414.429,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":434.952,"end":435.172,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":464.656,"end":471.218,"text":"大刀一砍,獨卸給他們當未來的生活。我經常也遇到很多經銷的朋友、退休的朋友,留人生在背山裡。我說,你怎麼會在那裡人生運動?他們說,我會比較顧身體,但人生去給他們獨卸到這樣,到真的生活過程的時候,要請外國人,那一陣子也不夠。"},{"start":487.423,"end":489.105,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．事由．委員萬美玲等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"154033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0aacde8374322c0c18ff7e0bc1ebc5021ff818a7b9e5fd5b1c6f1c4c3a8b85f695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"12:35:47 - 12:45:03","影片長度":"00:09:16","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T12:35:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:45:03+08:00","duration":556,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1007,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（12時36分）主席好，各位委員、各位官員，大家午安。有請內政部政次、警政署署長及消防署署長，謝謝。"],["主席：請政次、署長。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：感謝政次及兩位署長。今天是有關於第三十五條的修正案，就是在討論有關於年金的部分，今天立法院外也有很多警消退休的人員到現場幫署長加油，政次知道這件事嗎？"],["馬次長士元：知道。"],["張署長榮興：知道，知道這件事。"],["張委員智倫：所以我認為今天這件事情非常重要，這邊討論的重點當然是希望說要還給所有辛苦、奉公守法、熱愛中華民國的警消同仁一個公道。先請政次休息一下，我要請兩位署長來分享，今天是歷史的一刻，你們有機會表達你們的意見，你們支不支持要給所有退休的軍公教警消同仁一個合理的待遇？"],["張署長榮興：剛剛很多委員都有質詢過了，以警政署的立場，對於現職跟退休的都要一起照顧，今天非常謝謝委員對這樣的提議，對於第三十五條相關提議的修正，我們警政署會協調主管機關來積極處理這件事情。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝署長。那我們請消防署署長，這是寶貴的時間，拜託。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員對消防這麼關心、照顧。現職人員跟退休人員一樣重要，現職人員我們最近獲得到行政院核定，有23個計畫、270億的經費，最近也在進行當中，未來對消防人員職業安全、福利保障，我想會有更多的處理措施，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。請政次。政次，有沒有聽到大家的心聲？大家都是認為不管是現任的軍警消人員，或是退休的軍警消人員，都要保障。身為在野黨的立委，我們認為現在內政部做的完全不夠，不然也不會外面抗議的退休軍警消這麼多。","剛剛很多委員也跟你報告過，現任的人數非常不足，今天拿的這個大手板我剛剛也在外面特別強調，政次你知道嗎，現在全臺灣22個縣市的員額嚴重不足，員額現在總共缺少將近5,000人，這個人數非常的多。大家不要認為只有缺5,000個人，我們預算缺額就高達5,000人，現有員額也不足，我們以新北市來舉例，新北市400萬人口，只有7,290位員警，平均1位員警要照顧、要關心或是執勤的時候要配合500位新北市民，請問一下政次或是署長，以前在學校教的時候，是給警察同仁這樣的環境說你們以後一個人要顧500位民眾嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，缺額的部分有蠻多的因素，很多是社會、經濟上面的誘因狀況，我們在現職警消同仁的執勤環境上面，事實上有做很多的努力。很大一塊就是說因為現在的少子化，所以讓來報考的人跟報考通過的人，都有受到很大的限制，這部分我們會努力。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝政次的回復，您也代表了認定是為因為少子化，所以少子化要怎麼做？就是福利要更好，這樣才可以聘到應該要聘到的人。立法委員不能增加預算，所以我當時也拜託張署長要來增加預算員額，不管是警察、消防，還有很多重要、危險的職務都要增加預算員額，不然大家執勤的時候都非常辛苦，我們看到很多的社會案件跟遺憾，造成整個環境是非常不OK的。","接下來要請教政次，我還對很多的議題很有意見，現在遇到很多家裡有警察同仁的人反映的心聲，現在一般的家庭，假設爸爸是警察，因為警察非常辛苦，所以媽媽有時候都全職，全職在家裡帶小孩。我們一直在講，警消平均的壽命大概是60歲上下，如果爸爸離開了，媽媽只能領半薪，基本上他們很多都是全職媽媽，現在又少子化，生小孩的時間比較短又比較晚，他就只能領半薪，很多人現在還有在背房貸的，請問他們領半薪如何照顧家人跟小孩，你們會不會覺得這個有問題？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，這是屬於撫卹的部分。"],["張委員智倫：不是，退休了以後。"],["馬次長士元：退休後的半薪？"],["張委員智倫：對，領半薪的部分，你覺得他可以照顧他的小孩嗎？"],["馬次長士元：如果是以退休的半薪來說，當然是有困難。"],["張委員智倫：對，那這是不是需要檢討跟改善？"],["馬次長士元：這個我們要跟銓敘部及人總討論。"],["張委員智倫：好，這是第一個問題，我相信就是你們沒有去關心他們的權益，爸爸是現職警察人員，退休後平均餘命60出頭，有些還不到，結果因為他平常公務繁忙，太太全職了，後來養育小孩，結果退休後只能領半薪，那他如何照顧他們的小孩？光是生活就出了很大的問題，這是很多警察家庭媽媽的辛酸跟心聲，這個拜託。","第二個也是一個很不合理的問題，爸爸、媽媽兩個都是公務人員、都是警察，兩個都退休了以後，假如說爸爸過世了，媽媽不能領他的半俸，要二擇一，看是哪個比較高，這邊我會覺得很疑惑，署長、政次聽得懂嗎？就是爸爸、媽媽都是警察，他們退休後都可以領退休俸，結果其中一個人過世後，他的配偶不能領他的半薪，只能兩邊選一個，看誰的高的選誰，這樣是不是有懲罰婚姻的狀況？這樣會不會有人覺得如果我的另一外半是警察，非常不合理？這樣會不會懲罰婚姻？是不是有違反憲法大家婚姻平權的問題？政次知道這樣的問題嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們有聽說，這部分是不是我們會後邀集相關單位再跟委員做說明？因為這個問題有點複雜。"],["張委員智倫：複雜在哪裡？"],["馬次長士元：因為這裡面有牽涉到銓敘部的職權。"],["張委員智倫：好，所以我要跟大家報告，因為時間的關係，總結一下，因為大家一直說我們在保護現職的軍警消同仁，我覺得是保護不足，光是現在就有很多的問題，例如員額不足的問題，我們對所有退休的人，他們也不滿。我們對不管是過去8年的蔡英文政府以及現在的賴清德政府，都予以高度的期待，第一線為我們人民打拚的軍公教警消同仁，而且是賣命付出、奉公守法，以及大家最在乎的缺額問題，現在政府都沒有解決，如果今天不是召委找我們過來，我們真的不知道如何發聲。所以會後大概多久時間可以給我一個報告？讓我來為這些問題做一個了解。"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們會後跟委員辦公室約儘快的時間。"],["張委員智倫：會處理吧？次長覺得這是問題嘛，對不對？"],["馬次長士元：的確是問題。"],["張委員智倫：好，OK，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。接下來請丁學忠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.356593750000002,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.774093750000002,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.469093750000003,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.43409375,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.362218750000004,"end":61.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.384093750000005,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.93659375000001,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.72409375000001,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.96534375,"end":120.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.33284375000001,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.87284375,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.97409375000001,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.00784375,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.02471875,"end":124.09596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.70784375000001,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.19846875000002,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.35409375,"end":163.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.65096875,"end":166.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.44784375,"end":182.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.60159375,"end":190.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.32596875000002,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.35096875000002,"end":217.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.76909375000002,"end":225.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.91971875000002,"end":226.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.88159375,"end":226.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.75909375,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.63221875000002,"end":253.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.19409375,"end":275.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.78534375000004,"end":286.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.45034375,"end":289.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.29784375,"end":294.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.15784375000004,"end":316.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.44534375,"end":336.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.46346875,"end":343.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.77034375,"end":349.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.34346875,"end":349.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.36034375,"end":351.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.37721875,"end":351.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.68909375000004,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.77346875,"end":352.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.46534375000005,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.35096875000005,"end":355.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.53659375,"end":355.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.60409375,"end":364.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.99971875,"end":362.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.07096875,"end":366.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.72471875,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.13971875000004,"end":385.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.89471875000004,"end":387.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.00409375000004,"end":393.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.70784375000005,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.64846875,"end":402.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.20846875,"end":406.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.76909375,"end":407.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.74346875000003,"end":409.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.11034375,"end":411.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.88221875000005,"end":412.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.02971875000003,"end":413.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.21096875,"end":415.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.78034375000004,"end":417.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.34534375000004,"end":418.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.98221875,"end":424.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.53409375,"end":431.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.89596875,"end":434.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.96721875000003,"end":437.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.12284375,"end":441.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.39221875000004,"end":442.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.03346875000005,"end":446.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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案件,其中一人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案 案件,其中一人擬具"},{"start":119.89,"end":145.39,"text":"好謝謝署長那我們請消防署署長這是寶貴的經驗寶貴的時間喔拜託感謝委員對消防這麼關心照顧啊限職人員跟退休人員一樣重要那限職人員我們最近也合得獲得到行政院合定有23個計劃271已經會最近在進行當中那未來對消防人員職業安全福利保障我想會有更多的一個處理措施謝謝好謝謝好那請正次"},{"start":146.459,"end":147.64,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":167.381,"end":173.102,"text":"條文修正第三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文修正三條文"},{"start":193.39,"end":217.069,"text":"大家不要認為只有缺五千個人我們預算切合就到達五千位現有緣額也不足我們用與新北市來舉例新北市四百萬人口只有七千兩百九十位員警平均一位員警要照顧要關心或是執行的時候要配合五百位的我們的新北市民請問一下政治"},{"start":217.91,"end":240.487,"text":"或者是我們的署長以前在學校教的時候是給這樣子我們的警察同仁這樣子的環境說你們以後一個人要顧五百個我們的民眾嗎跟委員報告缺額的部分其實他有蠻多的因素那很多是社會經濟上面的一些誘因的狀況那我們在限職的警消同仁的執行環境上面是讓我們有做很多的努力"},{"start":241.087,"end":241.568,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":258.368,"end":260.309,"text":"三草案案件事條例修正草案案件事條例"},{"start":287.406,"end":289.027,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":309.642,"end":310.082,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":337.503,"end":340.927,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":355.843,"end":383.152,"text":"如果是以這個退休的半限的話當然是有困難對阿這個是不是需要來來檢討跟改善我們跟我們要跟這個權序部跟人總來討論這是第一個問題阿我相信就是你們沒有去關心他們的權益阿爸爸是現在我們的警察人員退休了以後他平均的餘命60出頭60出頭有些還不到消防員還不到結果因為他平常工務繁忙他的太太全職了結果後來現在"},{"start":384.212,"end":386.293,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條"},{"start":414.226,"end":415.387,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":443.119,"end":463.656,"text":"這個配偶啊只不能領他的半薪只能兩邊選一個看誰的高的選誰那這樣是不是有懲罰婚姻的一個狀況這樣子的話會不會有人就覺得說那如果我的另外一半是警察非常不合理這樣會不會有懲罰婚姻那是不是有違反憲法這個婚姻大家婚姻平權的一個問題這次知道這樣的問題嗎"},{"start":466.614,"end":475.024,"text":"報告委員我們有聽說那這個部分是不是我們會後我們邀集相關的單位跟委員我們在做說明因為這個問題有點複雜複雜在哪裡因為這裡面有牽涉到權序部的職權"},{"start":480.82,"end":498.959,"text":"所以我要跟大家報告不管是現在總結啦因為時間的關係總結不管是我們對於現在我們所有的現在現職的大家一直說我們在保護現職的這個軍警消同仁我覺得保護不足啊光是現在就有很多的問題"},{"start":500.657,"end":501.658,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":529.458,"end":529.578,"text":"二（委員"}]}},{"id":"154032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0e8873e17d7b1ccec5c95aab381092a4010236ca661ab85212358c043e02a71fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"14:21:45 - 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生權法上面是規定只有大眾運輸要設計無障礙座位但你們一直說觀光列車不算大眾運輸工具可是我剛才問部長啊我在一開始的時候問部長啊障礙者該不該給他平等觀光的權利應該的應該嘛所以恐怕這不是只是用說有沒有違法來看待這件事情嘛是的所以之前台鐵的回覆都是沒有違法所以我們就不動"},{"start":253.322,"end":273.764,"text":"我想客委員報告這個往後我們尤其是觀光列車這一部分我們會充分設想不然我要跟你報告其實不管是林保署的阿里山火車或者是台鐵他們其實在上路前都必須要經過交通部依據地方營或民營及專用鐵路監督實施辦法的核准"},{"start":274.665,"end":296.954,"text":"但這個辦法裡面確實現在是沒有要求車廂設計必須規劃無障礙座位其實我認為這是我們在很多無障礙概念裡面的一個漏洞這也是變成是我們相關的行政部部會的時候他會說這上面並沒有規定用這個事情來去閃避這方面的要求所以部長我可不可以要求這個"},{"start":299.275,"end":325.141,"text":"我們就只講在三個月內是不是可以來請臺鐵來評估我們現行觀光列車來增設或者是用其他的方式來增加不管是無障礙車廂或無障礙設施也許老舊也許新的但總是可以找得到方案能夠讓輪椅族有條件可以上去跟我們一起平等享用這些觀光資源這是第一點"},{"start":326.206,"end":346.198,"text":"第二點我們是希望能夠檢討現在發展大眾運輸條例以及這個地方人民以及專用鐵路監督實施辦法裡面應該將觀光列車比照大眾交通運輸工具要求增設無障礙座位直接就訂到這辦法裡面把我們法規上面的漏洞給補上部長這應該沒有問題吧所以我們來評估這個明日號"},{"start":349.94,"end":351.2,"text":"三個月的時間應該是沒有問題那把相關的報告再給我們辦公室謝謝"},{"start":381.527,"end":381.548,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"154031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0125e6ebb8d8444825c95aab381092a4010236ca661ab85212cb56add62d41ea75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"14:13:43 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對不對現在是12點嘛我相信你可以安排在11點左右就飛出去應該沒有問題啊不要一直在研究啦建機旅局趕快這個看看這七八月份有沒有可能有個幾個航班先試點看看飛北美"},{"start":253.663,"end":270.871,"text":"北美幾個熱門行列試看看,轉機客一來不得了好,謝謝那個高速公路局那個陸科陸科的聯絡道東延接到這個田寮交流道接到國道3號這個在可行性研究嘛"},{"start":272.872,"end":288.383,"text":"這個一定要成喔因為喔未來陸科橋科還有原本的永安工業區那個未來工業區聚落在那邊S郎大中心所以貨運客運需求非常的非常的大所以你沒有辦法把國道3號跟國道1號透過陸科聯繫起來"},{"start":291.284,"end":313.816,"text":"這個以後會形成很大的交通問題所以這個要緊守好不好是 這整個的話高雄市政府目前已經在做可行性研究那這個案子也是我提案的我們會來配合 積極配合那台六十一縣的公務局剛才說台六十一縣是公務局對 這個南延到高雄市區到南梓這也是我提案的對不對目前進度呢"},{"start":314.656,"end":332.502,"text":"這個部分我們可信研究 因為他是從臺南鄭文溪一直到藍紫指關那所以我們大概在今年的八月份這個可信研究我們公務局就會提出來八月份 今年八月份好 謝謝 非常準時"}]}},{"id":"154029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0953c216c3e0c7e735c95aab381092a4010236ca661ab8521ee2905264f656d115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"14:51:26 - 14:58:20","影片長度":"00:06:54","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T14:51:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T14:58:20+08:00","duration":414,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1304,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（14時51分）主席，麻煩請交通部部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長孟諺：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好，你知道身心障礙權益保護法第五十三條的規定是什麼？就是跟交通部有關的，沒關係，這不需要背法條，第五十三條規定，運輸營運者必須要提供無障礙的運輸服務。在113年2月底的數據裡面，市區客運提供無障礙的比例還滿高的，有七成三，其中六都最高，臺北、臺中有接近九成，我們嘉義縣也有過半數的市區公車是無障礙的車輛；一般公路汽車客運大概只剩下33.48%；但是最慘的是國道客運，你看上面的圖表就可以知道只有8.75%，也就是只有248台是無障礙的車輛。我想請教部長，公路局有做到督導國道客運業者提供無障礙車輛的義務跟責任嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我想這個是法條的規定，也是照顧身心障礙國人同胞的權益，所以我們有責無旁貸的責任。"],["陳委員冠廷：過去是認為，增加無障礙車輛的話，可能不符合經濟效應，另外一邊的說法是這會壓縮到一般乘客的座位數，這可以理解，但是我必須強調，我們身心障礙權益保護法第五十三條的規定其實滿明確的，我們還是希望這個比例還是要有拉高的可能性，因為未來會高齡化，不僅是身心障礙者，高齡化的長者可能有時候也會需要類似這樣子的服務，所以我們政府責無旁貸，不是只照顧多數人而已，還包括照顧弱勢的族群，這都是必要而且必須要做的。我必須強調，部長上任之後，我認為在新任這樣子的mandate可能很大的狀況之下，最好能夠提供一些具體的作法，是不是可以兩個禮拜內給我書面報告，做相關的檢討？"],["李部長孟諺：好，我想先請局長跟您報告目前推動的政策。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，因為我還有其他包含國道客運的預約機制要問，所以請簡短回應。"],["林司長福山：我大概有兩個重點跟委員報告一下，第一個部分，市區公車的無障礙是利用低地板，低地板的部分，現在大概是75%，未來到2030年全面電動化，這些電動化的車子全部都是低地板了。剛剛委員關心的部分是有關於公路客運，公路客運就是我們一般稱為高地板的部分，因為它行駛的路線等等，沒辦法用低地板。目前公路總局的處理方式，基本上要換成全部都是有升降梯的，那個部分是有困難度，現在是用班次配置的方式，先來做一個處理，後面有一些路線，還有班次更多的那個部分，我們會督促公總來做一個處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。你剛剛提到班次，我們就來講國道客運的預約機制，如果要使用這些無障礙的客運，除了搭乘固定班次，就是剛才您提到的固定班次，也可以用預約的方式，近一年用國道客運預約無障礙的車輛的數量是115人次，實際搭乘大概接近500人次，也就是說，大家實際上的搭乘還是比預約的人數多，這是非常正常的現象，只是我是說這樣子的空間代表預約機制還能夠改善、還能夠再增加，但是我們現在客運的預約管道沒有統一的入口介面，比方說台灣好行的網站，無障礙預約窗口跟無障礙班次的時刻是在不同的頁面，預約的資訊也不完整，大家可以參考一下我們的PowerPoint上面所講的。公路局官網所統整的國道客運公司的訂票連結，每一家客運，基本上它的訂票方式也不同，網站其實也沒有做一個統整，所以我想具體建議公路局，第一個，是不是能夠督促觀光署來確保補充台灣好行官網的資訊，讓無障礙預約的旅客，可以直接點選超連結或者是各種無障礙的公車班次直接可以預約，就是使用介面的改善，這個是我第一個具體建議。","第二個，我希望公路局能夠成立一個統一窗口，讓各業者的時刻表、訂票的連結，全部都放在一起，不要分散在各個不同的網頁上面。","最後，無障礙的車輛在絕對數值上面我們當然是希望可以再增加，但是如果是現有的資源查詢不易，或者是讓這個使用率降低，那就是浪費，所以這幾個部分是不是可以麻煩部長來做一些改進？"],["李部長孟諺：我請局長先跟您報告目前我們準備整合的方式。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，我想各個客運業者當然也有它的預約網站跟系統，然後台灣好行也有，我們會來做一個整合，然後有一個單一的窗口。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝，聽到這樣子的回應，我們很高興，就是開始有往這個方向走。","最後我要講公車站牌，個人是在外交及國防委員會，其實有很多外交人員都不斷的跟我們強調我們巴士的公車站牌的識別性，部長會看韓文嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：不會。"],["陳委員冠廷：你不需要會看韓文，因為上面有寫BUS STOP，然後上面有寫管理號碼：44560，所以你就知道這是什麼意思，這一個編號在哪裡。我希望未來我們相關車站的編號，能夠具體用這樣的數字，不會一下是臺北車站、路名「青島」；一下是臺北車站、中正，就是不需要用漢字再去表現這是哪一個站牌，你只要有一個完整的數字，管理的號碼在上面，上面寫著BUS STOP，然後旁邊有一個具體的巴士的符號，或者是公車的符號，這樣子就更加的易懂，對於觀光客來說更加友善，對於在臺灣這些外交相關人員，他們一看便能夠瞭解到我們的交通運輸工具，這個部分可不可以討論、去做一個改進？"],["李部長孟諺：好，我們看到好像每個縣市公車的站牌標示不太一致，我們來看怎麼樣可以做個改進。"],["陳委員冠廷：感謝，希望可以做一個統合。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，陳冠廷委員發言完畢。","現在請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-16","speakers":["李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","葉元之","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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部分"},{"start":107.924,"end":135.858,"text":"在於這個就是說無照駕駛這一塊那這個委員這邊也有一些這個想法那是不是包括可以入刑法或等等那這個東西基本上市長不是只有我一個想法下一頁就是說我當時在質詢警交通部要針對於無照駕駛的違規的風險然後建議也比照酒駕那當時那時候提出了兩個要旨也就是說明定移植保管的車輛也就是扣車的規定那第二個是若實執行延待處罰加強審查"},{"start":137.219,"end":137.399,"text":"李孟諺列席"},{"start":152.383,"end":179.612,"text":"不是只有你們我覺得說也不是只有我在講因為你們自己當初交通部運營員手是你們的幕僚單位在111年的研究就做出來那過去我們在民間在進軍基金會的時候也做過無照駕駛的部分也提出類似的建議希望能夠針對於罰款以外提高罰款應該要有其他方法手段也就是能不能包括我們剛剛講車輛遺址的保管還有"},{"start":182.233,"end":204.739,"text":"就是所有的人的連帶責任要確實落實執行下一頁所以他剛剛講說有法規你都不執行法規更何況上次我提的那要扣車那我想問一下部長目前的進度呢就是針對我上次提的比照酒駕的裁罰的制度那目前進度是什麼"},{"start":205.851,"end":229.442,"text":"各位報告一下就是說這個要扣牌照的部分現在都有了那要扣車包括營業這個比照酒駕路法那個都是要就是修處法條例這很特別就是說你們在微電車個人行動器具的慢車的部分未滿14歲的都可以按照道教條例的72支2條直接採行禁止騎駕駛那更何況這些危險的一個駕駛人為什麼不能比照這個辦理"},{"start":230.282,"end":230.522,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":251.317,"end":266.487,"text":"上次也請你我剛問部長進度呢不是應該要去處理嗎下一頁那重大違規的駕駛這也是上次我諮詢過的針對於前陣子在修法的時候我就不斷提醒進舉不祭典這個很難"},{"start":267.287,"end":294.286,"text":"去規範到所謂的危險駕駛累犯可是這幾天你們的交通部又預告修法了要按違規程度來分級然後換發短期的駕照可是問題是你的進行據點的這個部分佔了七成那你先把管理的工具拿掉之後不是自費武功嗎那現在又說我們要駕駛人如果被吊銷執照要換發我們的短期駕照的時候我覺得這應該是很難啦因為你七成的東西你就已經抓不到啦然後現在不計點"},{"start":294.986,"end":295.126,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":318.254,"end":343.856,"text":"那針對於這是交通部回覆我的書面報告那時候講說交通違規的處罰有很多種違規祭典是累積性的然後因為很難規則責任因為查不到人所以我們就採心不要決定那個進取不祭典可是我想問部長不祭典如何汰換掉不適任的高風險的人因為這些人都是道路上強烈的侵略者"},{"start":344.597,"end":344.737,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":371.374,"end":388.91,"text":"交通部已經花大錢在做這個程式那如果當初你們因為這個計點規則不容易去延伸到然後產生黃牛問題所以花大錢做的這個集合程式那到底是這個花大錢的集合程式沒在用不好用還是交通"},{"start":389.25,"end":389.851,"text":"林月琴議員"},{"start":412.345,"end":412.485,"text":"下一頁齁"},{"start":439.429,"end":467.49,"text":"所以我主張事實上應該建議你們全面檢討並修訂無照駕駛因為他社會成本這麼的高造成我們有千億的一個社會成本所以是不是無照駕駛違規處罰跟管理機制那第二個重新檢討你要不要調高這個危險違規行為的處罰跟管理機制希望你加強加速去推動我們國內的考照制度的革新來全面檢討我們駕駛人管理機制再麻煩部長"},{"start":469.071,"end":469.151,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0973f46ad91e37a855c95aab381092a40bde74b6f355ecae1c0ae87ae6cfd03fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"14:36:02 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要關台灣各館企業的交通重重的部分"},{"start":158.486,"end":171.915,"text":"有沒有看到我一天向你探討的信你應該對交易市應該有一個概念尤其交易市最大的建設就要跟這個體育高架而已沒有錯你說兩天本席來講其實是你們的回答你們的資料18、15年"},{"start":186.38,"end":187.682,"text":"若未能完工．已延至18、18年．以後．"},{"start":196.653,"end":214.378,"text":"保證,這樣實在,你看煙多久,煙三噸耶,定於一個交通、一個鐵路高架做高檔的時候,還要煙三噸,還定於12噸耶,一個出事的,要到中間12月才看到我們的鐵路高架,會選擇出來"},{"start":222.322,"end":228.085,"text":"主委了解是有一個歷史的這個轉車台的這個部分在施工中要去做處理那細節我請這個局長跟您報告一下來局長來"},{"start":245.777,"end":253.599,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我在今年初在嘉義車站附近發掘到一個歷史的轉車台這我知道啦,我現在是跟你說你已經延宕在這裡面是怎麼差距那麼大?正宗的年代,你剛才說都沒有延宕現在你剛才說延宕三宗的時候,那個日數的差距不是現在才發生的啦"},{"start":271.642,"end":276.723,"text":"大家如果住在嘉義市,大家也知道火車站是在四月火車站嘉義市啊,你們要怎麼去靠譜?這個是我們在挖掘過程中發現的地下的這個遺構,並不是那個嘉義車站。我知道,你後來想到我自己啊,跟你後來我自己,可以延長三年嗎?"},{"start":295.586,"end":301.43,"text":"過去我們在臺南處理的經驗都會延宕到兩到三年團體什麼時候要考慮、要加強、要趕快"},{"start":310.356,"end":321.261,"text":"沿蕩下去整個都改變了,因為家用下降,抱愛下降,沙灶下降,因為沿蕩下去,還要沿蕩下去走,跟妳剛才說到台南的問題,未來,跟妳家的問題,我們要與人故事同源。"},{"start":332.245,"end":360.745,"text":"要做得好,我會繼續追蹤。我今天公共的信,他們都決定,剛才你說清國的問題,還有現在延宕的問題,最主要延宕的問題,我認為有很多意見的,還有很多問題的,我認為開會之後,你有時間,我有時間,大家來探討一下,因為大家都為公共建設在怕命,以上。"},{"start":363.473,"end":363.797,"text":"呃"}]}},{"id":"154026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba00e47a7bcb46088595c95aab381092a40bde74b6f355ecae16eb0d0d8684cdce65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"14:28:36 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中華民國的政府長期以來好像都跟產業脫鉤啦就是產業發展得非常科技化但是我們的各部門常常落後我們的產業非常多那我不曉得部長接任我們交通部長之後包括黃元勳來了之後你有沒有思考過"},{"start":57.381,"end":79.136,"text":"我們交通部有沒有哪些業務可以利用AI的科技來提升我們的服務品質?有沒有思考過這個問題?我舉個例子,譬如說我們的高速公路的乍到移控那它現在就有利用相關的177的大數據那做人工智慧的演算來決定那個移控的秒數"},{"start":80.137,"end":80.277,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":97.128,"end":113.195,"text":"影像判斷的方式來設置我們高速公路的移控這可能我們高速公路有在做了那至於平面地方政府的交通設施呢我們其實大家常常會講我們地方的交通非常的可能混亂 擁捨那我們有沒有思考過"},{"start":115.476,"end":136.769,"text":"因為其實我在當然在第一屆競選議員的時候我就提出了一個智慧交通的概念那後來我發現其實地方政府根本沒有能力做這件事情那我不曉得我們交通部有沒有在思考這件事情來協助地方政府的地方的入口號誌利用影像的判斷來做秒差的調整或者是行人穿越的部分有時候行人按了好久為了要跟前後入口"},{"start":137.449,"end":140.552,"text":"現在我們有協助各縣市政府建立他的交通行控中心那這個行控中心就會包括整個車流"},{"start":156.969,"end":186.093,"text":"用AI攝影去做車流的演算那來讓他的紅綠燈有一個最佳化的處理那另外其實現在各個路口很多路口已經有開始做科技執法那科技執法也是用攝影機去研判比如說這個車輛有沒有離讓行人我們現在不是規定車輛至少要離行人3公尺3個整目的距離那這個這些影像他就是利用AI來判斷這個車有沒有違法那可以減少這個警察要在路口執法的負擔"},{"start":186.735,"end":187.075,"text":"我請司長跟您報告比較詳細"},{"start":206.787,"end":232.361,"text":"跟委員報告那事實上從106年開始一直到現在現在已經都上線所以我們在那個路您剛剛所垂詢的路口的部分確實我們就已經用AI的這個CCTV來去做影像的辨識然後傳到我們的那個智慧的交通管理中心然後透過這樣的判別之後下到我們的那個路口的耗資控制器裡面然後把"},{"start":232.961,"end":233.682,"text":"警示系統"},{"start":256.702,"end":276.575,"text":"未來會普遍到我們全台灣都會一年編列我以今年今年來說我們大概一年編列多少的預算在補助地方政府算是update我們的系統一年的話我們全國現在目前是大概編了4億4億嗎是好那有沒有預估大概如果說要全面普及的話需要多少經費"},{"start":278.343,"end":290.935,"text":"因為這個部分是比較重大概百分之六成會到這個部分六成對 四億裡面有六成是沒有說全台灣的耗資系統都要去做一個全國更新更新的話"},{"start":292.13,"end":317.466,"text":"全國更新這個我們可能還在做統計不過每年的話這個我們是列為重點重點項目對是好那就再麻煩我們叫孟繼續繼續加油好那另外這個我討論一下我們血稅這個塞車的問題因為血稅其實之前之前我跟趙偉去過勘察過嘛端午節的時候更之前清明連假的時候那我們那時候高工局是說"},{"start":318.787,"end":337.574,"text":"與其提高速限那的功效跟這個取締歸宿車讓歸宿車加速其實對整個以交通的流暢來說要求這個歸宿車加速的話對於整體的這個車流量的行進速率是會有比較大的幫助嗎對不對"},{"start":340.447,"end":366.744,"text":"該委員報告一下齁因為尤其是北上的部分齁常常人家稱的陸隊長那就是歸宿車其實他的下游是沒有塞車對因為我們現在要取締陸隊長非常困難嘛對對不對那我們其實現在有東西叫區間車速其實一直以來都被民間反彈很大齁其實區間車速沒有什麼問題啦最大的問題是我們常常會定一個不合理的限速齁過地的限速那大家才會來反彈這個區間車速我們有沒有考慮過用區間車速來取締歸宿那個陸隊長"},{"start":370.507,"end":386.949,"text":"目前歸宿車比較沒有辦法用那個區間測速但是我們會把歸宿車有顯示在水稅的部分有特別去做針對歸宿車會把他的車號差距我知道現在沒有啦我知道現在沒有嘛那未來可不可以"},{"start":388.511,"end":403.07,"text":"這個因為慢速的部分的話他涉及的比較多有可能下游也已經用涉了這當然啦這當然啦你當然會有一些例外情況排除嘛是是是對啊你至少像雪碎裡面他沒有辦法變換車道嘛那至少你跟前車差了幾秒"},{"start":404.591,"end":432.205,"text":"你差過一定的秒數以上然後你又用了過多的時間在隧道內那他可能就是一個取締的要件嘛他就可以取締嘛那如果說你前車慢的話我們當然也會慢嘛我希望我們考慮一下研究一下你們評估一下啦他們是能夠在一定的一個月內然後考慮一下用科技指導的方式來改善我們雪山隧道歸宿車的問題好不好一個月好那就以上兩個問題再麻煩我們交通部謝謝"},{"start":435.147,"end":435.913,"text":"謝謝廖先翔委員"}]}},{"id":"154025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0ce54a7badc5a74afc65fab1c545da5d0bde74b6f355ecae108299f9cc5a62a845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:18:22 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"end":171.597,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個計畫我們希望是針對青年也不限於只是學生所以這個報告我們就是在18歲到35歲這裡面的這些年輕人怎麼樣讓他有機會可以去國外可以去有更多一些不一樣的經驗跟體驗再帶回來台灣那這是我們這個基金最主要在成立的目的"},{"start":172.137,"end":176.319,"text":"所以他也包含了進到產業學習或者是到教育機構學習的規劃都包含在內我看到你們預計要來諮詢青年學生的建議"},{"start":186.033,"end":207.787,"text":"我們目前打算怎麼做?我們會來舉辦座談會嗎?到校園裡面去嗎?還是怎麼來辦?我們有透過青年署去跟很多過去合作過的很多青年的團體來跟他們收集意見就是說就這個圓夢基金大家覺得說怎麼樣做會更切合大家的需要這是我們現在正在收集的"},{"start":207.907,"end":218.652,"text":"收集意見我覺得非常重要那也希望要加入來自專家團體的建議包括來自食物界的產業界的能夠來協助我們這個計畫我們最希望是能夠提升青年學子的國際視野那也來提早培養產業的人才那講到這個技職教育體系其實我們也非常的重視我看到部長最近也提到"},{"start":235.279,"end":246.727,"text":"因為我們台灣這幾年我們有一個發展非常進步幅度很大就是我們太空產業太空產業計畫我們已經進到第三期了我們現在正在進行衛星的自主研發我們也在籌備我們的火箭發射場同時台灣的大廠也已經打進國際的產業鏈所以我們其實是相當有規模所以我看到部長他在舉例說我們未來要來提升技職教育的時候他舉例也許我們可以來成立一個太空學校"},{"start":266.58,"end":293.778,"text":"這對台灣來講會是一個創舉在歐盟有太空總署美國太空中心都有教育方案那我們如果以即職學校的方式來成立太空學校這是一個非常先驅的做法所以說這個目前也是還在討論規劃當中那我們希望未來如果進行規劃一樣是要有來自教育界來自產業界的各方的意見進來"},{"start":294.659,"end":297.71,"text":"讓他做一個比較完備跟完整的規劃好不好"},{"start":300.114,"end":324.499,"text":"好,然後我也非常關心的是過去我在台北市議會當時我們就看到我們台北的北流中心跟我們教育部國教署有一個合作計畫就是要來推廣流行音樂的課程模組那國教署來找到種子教師跟北流一起合作進行培訓就是希望我們這些老師學習到了我們音樂的創作"},{"start":329.28,"end":345.076,"text":"來提出這個模組之後回到學校裡面去再去推廣這個流行音樂教育然後培養更多的教師人才所以我想請問這個計畫因為也進行了三四年了嘛我們目前的種子教師回去這個種子有沒有開花結果這個部分我可能是請國教室的副組長幫我們報告一下"},{"start":350.959,"end":372.949,"text":"我想這些老師回到學校之後應該可以就是以他在這個計畫裡頭所學的課程然後就是會運用在他學校的那個課程裡面這些我們都是非常鼓勵的可以活化學校的課程好 我需要你們提出具體的數字給我們"},{"start":373.849,"end":377.612,"text":"最後要跟這個次長討論我非常關心的北一大北一大的校長室開箱經過媒體的報導結果引來一陣風波然後呢這個媒體的IG變成學校對於學校宿舍"},{"start":397.441,"end":403.665,"text":"但為何學校現在宿舍的狀況看起來以學生的反應來說看起來是有非常多的問題所以教育部我們去了解了沒有"},{"start":416.139,"end":416.44,"text":"宿舍什麼時候要開始修?"},{"start":439.139,"end":467.706,"text":"今年會開始啟動這個數字的因為已經有非常多學生在反映了所以我希望教育部你們要到現場去了解不要再坐在辦公室了我們有沒有要派員去學校了解我已經派員去了解過了禮拜二要去現場了解了解的情況要讓大家知道我們需要更充足的資訊那另外此次事件當中我非常關注因為北一大校內有老師指出"},{"start":468.266,"end":468.646,"text":"這教育部有聽過這個消息嗎?"},{"start":487.759,"end":516.017,"text":"我們從來沒有砍過北一大校方的預算啊為什麼學校去砍學生的這個助理的薪資呢這個我有沒有去了解這個我們要確定他到底是教學助理或行政助理但是回過頭來就是說他這個薪水這個這樣子一下子這樣減半我們也覺得這個是對教學品質不是一件好事這件事情是來次長你過去也是教授嘛你有沒有請過月薪三千的助理沒有啊"},{"start":516.757,"end":540.085,"text":"從來沒有嘛我有當過教授的助理從來沒有領過這種薪資所以我請教育部務必北藝大的案件了解清楚再來學校大學裡面不管是學系新助理還是教學新助理薪資有沒有因為學校方覺得預算不足然後去砍學生薪資這樣的狀況我希望你們整體性的去了解"},{"start":544.704,"end":565.879,"text":"我相信這可能不是一個個案那最後呢這一次北一大的事件教育部你們是什麼時候知道學校有這麼多的爭議學生有這麼多的抱怨你們透過什麼管道知道的所以你們也是看IG看社群媒體看媒體報導我發現這一次的事件"},{"start":573.548,"end":590.263,"text":"反映出來是學生對於學校尤其是大學裡面行政的這個作業有所意見這個意見的表達其實非常的困難因為校方本身就是執行者學校會變成球員兼裁判"},{"start":591.284,"end":613.261,"text":"所以教育部要聽到學生的聲音竟然必須透過IG攝取媒體學生要報休學校宿舍竟然要去媒體的IG下面留言所以我希望我們教育部是不是可以有一個這個申訴的管道不管你用信箱還是什麼樣的方式讓學生可以有更直接的方式來跟教育部表達心聲"},{"start":614.822,"end":616.725,"text":"接下來我們請林一景委員"},{"start":635.264,"end":643.103,"text":"本席也同樣宣布在羅廷偉委員第9位羅廷偉委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息五分鐘謝謝主席有請次長好次長"}]}},{"id":"154024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba02cb21131f69c5b8e5c95aab381092a40bde74b6f355ecae14999303e8e406dd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"14:07:06 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人走在路上"},{"start":222.211,"end":248.536,"text":"我覺得這幾年是更加的草木皆兵如履薄冰也就是說從數據來看就是道安的部分真的民眾是非常不滿的原因很簡單就是大幅增加也因此在去年就爆發民怨所以很多人來批評臺灣是行人地獄當然我覺得行政院也有作為所以他提出了去年5月提出了行人優先交通安全行動綱領"},{"start":250.376,"end":265.673,"text":"那在2024到2027年這四年當中要砸400億來進行行人交通工程改善對不對那砸錢有沒有用那我現在還難定論因為這計畫還在執行中"},{"start":268.576,"end":277.22,"text":"但是我就要想說我看到報告裡面講就是說截至2023年底入口行人安全設施改善完成3486處那行人專用這個專用實相及時開完成大概4753處"},{"start":287.665,"end":315.938,"text":"非耗資入口完成大概5505處這些成果那我想請問您覺得這些對改善行人地域有明顯的績效嗎我想路口的改善現在是我們改善中的一個重點那當然行人空間比如說怎麼樣建構好的人行道或者是行人的專用的空間這也是另外一個重點如果改善斑馬線退縮還有包括人行道外擴"},{"start":316.818,"end":318.299,"text":"這些當然都該做,我也支持"},{"start":331.852,"end":351.452,"text":"但是實際上發生的效果如何我覺得可能部長要再多注意一下因為理論上像這些應該就可以在2023年完成2024年就應該反映在行人相關數據上但是我跟部長提醒您最後一個數字你知道今年1月到3月行人死亡人數是多少嗎"},{"start":352.959,"end":367.648,"text":"是比去年同期是增加246人去年同期216人成長14%所以努力去做因為部長你剛上任但是我希望能夠在你上任一段時間之後真的拜託"},{"start":369.189,"end":383.903,"text":"臺灣的行人是走在地獄裡面希望部長我們不是只有美麗的數字做了什麼事情而我要看到實際的效果能不能請部長繼續努力我想目標是一致的"}]}},{"id":"154023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0b746b4028dfef9525c95aab381092a40bde74b6f355ecae1046b0eefe8e5e5315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"14:00:28 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14:06:51","影片長度":"00:06:23","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T14:00:28+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T14:06:51+08:00","duration":383,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1046,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（14時）主席，我等一下不用等到你「心領神會」的眼神，我一定會努力準時下台。謝謝主席，有請交通部部長。"],["主席：請李部長。"],["李部長孟諺：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長午安，過往我住在花蓮約莫十多年，我去花蓮唸書的時候，花蓮的交通跟今天相比，非常多的好朋友，包含我自己的孩子，現在暑假他們會自己搭火車去花蓮。我想問部長，如果我們要跟花蓮的鄉親交代，民進黨執政這8年到底如何改善花蓮的交通建設，你會怎麼跟花蓮的鄉親溝通？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，其實我們這幾年包括已經投入或準備要投入在花蓮、花東的交通建設大概有3,000億。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["李部長孟諺：裡面包括蘇花改，以及最近剛核定的就是環評剛通過的蘇花安，還有國道5接蘇花改，蘇花改及蘇花安如果貫通，就可以從國道5有一個快速道路一路到新城。另外臺東方面就是南迴，還有鐵路電氣化、雙軌化及過去電氣化的投入。所以以上這些加起來其實有將近3,000億的經費。另外台鐵裡面現在最好的車廂就是EMU3000，我們大部分EMU3000的主力都放在花東。"],["陳委員培瑜：我自己回花蓮的時候還蠻常坐EMU3000。"],["李部長孟諺：應該感覺車廂非常新穎，座位數比太魯閣、普悠瑪多了將近兩百個位置，它有五百多個位置，所以我們都優先提供最好的給花東地區來使用。"],["陳委員培瑜：根據剛剛說了這麼多，如果還是有鄉親覺得不夠，我其實想要跟部長討論，有非常多的委員都在說花蓮特殊的地景，還有導致於它整個交通動線可能跟西部的狀態非常不一樣，部長去過花蓮，我相信你一定明白，我們在促進更多的交通建設之前，我相信臺灣絕對不是土法煉鋼，我們如何參考國外有類似相關交通狀況的國家，他們所做的開發如何在2024的此時此刻，在全球化的樣態已經有全然改變情況下，我相信開發跟照顧鄉親的交通、照顧鄉親的民生產業，絕對是我們在意的事情，但是開發難道只能有一種樣貌嗎？或者是這樣子的交通開發，我們除了做環評、除了做相關預算的規劃之外，我們有沒有機會花更多力氣跟鄉親溝通？如同我剛剛所請教您的，您剛剛所說的這些，其實花蓮的鄉親都不見得知道，對嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：我記得副總統蕭美琴之前在花蓮擔任立委的時候，他其實就提醒過交通部，在做所有的交通建設之前，我們都必須花時間跟花蓮的鄉親溝通，我相信後續的很多建設是不是交通部也有相關的規劃？我們直接到花蓮去，我相信在民進黨裡面，從沈伯洋委員到之前認養花蓮的范雲委員，還有我過去在花蓮住了十多年，我相信我們都一起願意到花蓮去跟更多的鄉親溝通，傾聽大家的聲音跟需求。甚且所有的交通建設可能都還會有另外一個負面的效應，其實當時在蓋快速道路的時候，很多人都說會不會大家就快快來，於是就會快快走？很多觀光現在已經走到了我們必須要重新檢視，快速的發展不必然是全面的好事，部長，對嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，一個交通建設，我想不管什麼建設都是這樣，當經費到一個程度，規模到一個程度，就必須要經過環評，並且做效益的評估之外，也要針對公民的參與，尤其在花東地區因為有原住民的部落，所以要經過部落諮商的同意。我舉個例子，像現在蘇花安好不容易環評已經過了，但是現在有兩個部落……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，我看到的很多新聞也是這樣。"],["李部長孟諺：他們擔心快速道路通過部落會讓他們的部落式微……"],["陳委員培瑜：就是我剛才說的，就是快快來就快快走，對不對？"],["李部長孟諺：所以未來花東快同樣也要面臨公民溝通、部落溝通的問題，花東快有11個部落要去溝通。我們最近有跟公路總局在討論，蘇花安如果兩個部落一直都不同意，可能那個部分要先減作。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我相信這麼多的溝通，部長您剛剛回答都非常明確，我相信我們都要一起努力繼續跟鄉親溝通，把鄉親的聲音跟需求，跟所有發展可能帶來的正面影響跟負面的影響，我想我們都要一併考慮。"],["李部長孟諺：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：我真的時間有限，我可不可以快速切進我的投影片。我們之前去看了台鐵，有相關台鐵文資保存的事情，可能部長您在這個部分比較不熟悉，我要快速的說一下。因為在臺鐵公司化的過程當中，相關文件資料的保留，其實有非常多民間專家學者，甚至檔案局也主動介入關心。可是我要提醒部長，我們現在發現一個很嚴重很嚴重的狀況，當機關改制為公營事業機構之後，在改制前檔案的移交必須要給該機關的上級主管機關作為相關盤查或者是盤點的依據，所以目前臺鐵在公司化的過程當中，交通部應該要去監督這些資料的移轉，可是看起來應該發生了一些交接上的困難。部長您嘟了嘴巴，你一定想說不知道發生了什麼事情，我來跟您說。我們跟檔案局請教，檔案局說這些資料的移轉過程，其實如果有藉故被隱匿銷毀或是藉故遺失是會有刑事責任的，刑事責任是2年以下有期徒刑或5萬塊以下的罰鍰。之前就有專家學者說，在北投那邊的訓練中心有500箱資料遺失，對這個遺失我們很想問到底發生了什麼事情，因為我等一下會被「心領神會」的下台，是不是後續的很多資料，我們可以再跟交通部討論，我們一起來用專家學者的力量來協助臺鐵，也協助臺鐵公司內部裡面有心想要把這件事情做好的員工，我們一起來努力，在相關文資保存部分，因為臺鐵的歷史是整部臺灣很重要的發展歷史，好嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我們再書面提供，跟委員報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，我們辦公室會主動找交通部討論。謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，陳培瑜委員發言完畢。現在請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-16","speakers":["李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","葉元之","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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對嗎"},{"start":163.251,"end":186.782,"text":"對,所以我記得副總統蕭美琴副總統他之前在花蓮擔任立委的時候他其實就提醒過交通部在做所有的交通建設之前我們都必須花時間跟花蓮的鄉親溝通我相信後續的很多建設是不是交通部也有相關的規劃我們直接到花蓮去我相信在民進黨裡面呢從沈柏洋委員到之前任亞花蓮的范雲委員還有我過去在花蓮住了10多年"},{"start":187.122,"end":209.487,"text":"我相信我們都一起願意到花蓮去跟更多的鄉親溝通請聽大家的聲音跟需求甚且所有的交通建設可能都還會有另外一個負面的效應其實當時在蓋快速道路的時候很多人都說會不會大家就快快來於是就會快快走很多觀光現在已經走到了我們必須要重新檢視快速的發展不必然是全面的好事對嗎部長"},{"start":210.707,"end":232.49,"text":"跟委員報告就是一個交通建設不管什麼建設都是這樣它經費到一個程度規模到一個程度它需要經過環評那效益的評估之外那也要針對公民的參與那尤其在華東地區因為有原住民的部落所以要經過部落諮商的同意那我舉個例子像現在舒華安"},{"start":233.251,"end":248.302,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":248.302,"end":249.863,"text":"蘇花安如果兩個部落一直都不同意可能那個部分要先檢作"},{"start":265.157,"end":282.263,"text":"我相信這麼多的溝通部長您剛剛回答都非常明確我相信我們都要一起努力繼續跟鄉親溝通把鄉親的聲音跟需求跟所有發展可能帶來的正面影響跟負面的影響我想我們都要一併考慮我真的時間有限我可不可以快速切進我的投影片"},{"start":283.363,"end":306.013,"text":"我們之前去看了臺鐵有相關臺鐵文資保存的事情那可能部長您在這個部分比較不熟悉可是我要快速的說一下因為在臺鐵公司化的過程當中相關文件資料的保留其實有非常多民間專家學者甚至檔案局也主動介入關心那可是我要提醒部長我們現在發現一個很嚴重很嚴重的狀況主席不好意思我有30秒趕快那個"},{"start":308.455,"end":328.717,"text":"當機關改制為公營事業機構之後他在改制前檔案的移交必須要給該機關的上級主管機關作為相關盤查或者是盤點的依據可是目前台鐵在公司化的過程當中交通部應該要去監督這些資料的移轉可是看起來應該發生了一些交接上的困難部長您多了嘴巴你一定想說不知道發生了什麼事情"},{"start":329.318,"end":329.338,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":349.685,"end":349.705,"text":"臺鐵歷史"},{"start":373.08,"end":373.36,"text":"陳培瑜委員"}]}},{"id":"154022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba05dc0282dc10d310d5c95aab381092a40bde74b6f355ecae10829630984fb1b6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"13:51:37 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- 13:45:38","影片長度":"00:06:24","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T13:39:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T13:45:38+08:00","duration":384,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1225,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時39分）你好，我們請警政署署長跟消防署署長。"],["主席：請張署長、蕭署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：兩位署長好，今天我們有針對警察人員人事條例的修正草案，主要是關係到警察人員的退休保障。我們還是一樣，希望兼顧國家的財政跟福祉，整體狀況可以永續，取得社會共識的話，那我們會持續去努力。不過，與其關注於退休後的時間，我認為在職期間的問題我們是必須要立刻去處置的，特別是他們的安全保障的部分。","最近我們看到，消防警察、消防員在在職期間的裝備和保障尚未達到應有的標準。比方說2023年的屏東明揚大火，導致4名消防員的殉職；上個月底新竹豪宅的大火，這裡面是沒有住民受傷或者是死亡，但是兩位消防弟兄卻殉職了。我們認為說，為了更加保障警察人員，我們知道這裡的警察人員包含消防警察，我們當然是希望把資源進行補充跟修正。比方說我們剛剛提到，在收訊的部分，無線電的中繼電臺，第一時間跨部會的相關協助，我們希望能夠有更多的資源能夠進入。","提升裝備的標準其實不僅僅是給消防人員的標準而已，包含對警察人員都有。最近不管是在捷運也好，或者是在我們剛剛提到的火場也好，這些裝備的更新在在都需要資源的挹注。我們必須要知道政府的財政、預算不是無限的，當你側重一個部分，那你就必須要移挪另外一個部分。所以我還是希望藉由這個機會，讓國人同胞能夠理解到財政資源不是可以無限擴張的。我們當然希望能夠提升所有人的權益，但是在職人員，不管是警消人員，他們所需要的裝備、資源的提升，那是迫在眉睫，現在就必須做的。","所以，提升裝備的標準，還有完善的訓練計畫，甚至是心理健康的支持，譬如說我們剛剛提到的這些警消人員，這些弟兄因為很不幸的事故去世之後，怎麼樣對他們的家屬、遺屬，或者是他們的同事提供支援，這也是需要經費的。這不是只有一個部門，不是警政署，也不是只有內政部，甚至衛福部都要提供介入。所以我還是再強調，這不僅僅是對警察人員、在職人員個人權益的保障，它是對整個社會的長期投資。如果我們要思考到整個社會的長期投資的話，那是不是方方面面都必須要納入考量，而不是只有退職人員和現職人員而已？不知道這個部分兩位署長怎麼看？先請消防署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：很感謝委員這麼關心我們消防警察。政府在最近幾年已經核定了23個計畫，就是剛才委員所提到的裝備器材、廳舍，甚至心理輔導、諮商，到PTSD等這些議題，都已經納入目前正在執行的計畫裡面。昨天院長也核定消防人員職安，怎麼兼顧到消防人員服勤的安全，這個計畫昨天院長已經核定了，總共核定了11億元的經費。包括消防人員以後身體健康的檢查，這些都是我們納入後續輔導、協助的項目。","剛剛委員講的沒有錯，就是整個施政的部分，包括在職人員以及退休人員怎麼樣來兼顧，尤其在職人員我們怎麼樣投注比較多的心力，來讓他們的服勤能夠達到安全的目的，這是我們目前正在努力的地方。","當然對於教育訓練更是我們重中之重，所以去年明揚大火完了以後，事實上我們有巡迴在做怎麼從指揮、救災等整個概念來做一個調整、精進，甚至我們七項的救災專業技術最近也全面在執行當中，所以在在這些都是需要經費的挹注。剛剛委員也提到無線電中繼臺，所以未來在中程計畫裡面，針對臺灣各縣市，我們預計準備73部現場指揮車，把通訊的因素能夠做一個克服跟解決，簡單跟委員回報。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝署長。主席，是不是可以再給我30秒？請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長好。次長過去在學術界的時候，應該是常去美國的一些急難相關的，特別是急難救助相關的部門取經。次長現在就任之後，是不是有相關的規劃，讓我們的警消人員，特別是消防人員，能夠有更完整的訓練？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們目前採取兩個方式。第一個是，我們有持續邀請美國的教官到臺灣來，針對我們現在警消在戰技、戰術上面的一些訓練，這個部分在消防署的訓練中心跟警政署都有在進行。第二個部分就是說，我們有安排到美國的消防單位跟國土安全相關單位，我們的警消同仁也有出去受訓，希望能把雙方的優點跟經驗做交流後帶回臺灣。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想請教次長，現在這樣子的人次、人數大概是多少？"],["馬次長士元：細節部分，可能我們會後跟委員做報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我們會後再講。但是我是希望它能夠制度化、能夠再擴大，因為現在包含我看到我們的國防部門，還有我們的內政、Coast Guard都有去美國做完整的訓練。我們希望在消防的部分，除了美國的教練來臺之外，能夠有更多這樣子的做法，這個量能都要把它加大，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：好的，謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們接下來請謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員。","傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時有要求提供相關資料，或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員跟本聯席會。","委員楊曜、李彥秀所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.657843750000001,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.480343750000003,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.54659375,"end":23.352218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.31409375,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.35471875,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.595968750000004,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.27846875,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.97159375,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.71221875000003,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.02409375,"end":287.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.19284375,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.46284375,"end":288.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.79596875000004,"end":288.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.65596875,"end":294.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.36409375,"end":317.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.52971875000003,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.29284375000003,"end":324.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.48659375,"end":324.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.77346875,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.79034375000003,"end":324.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.97596875000005,"end":355.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.73471875,"end":359.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.23221875,"end":383.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.27909375,"end":383.34659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.667,"end":13.008,"text":"警察人員人事條例修正草案"},{"start":34.38,"end":35.02,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":56.993,"end":80.453,"text":"最近我們看到消防員在職期間的裝備和保障,他尚未有得到應該的標準。比如說2023年的屏東大火導致4名消防員殉職,上個月底新竹豪宅的大火,這裡面是沒有住民受傷或死亡,但是兩位消防弟兄卻殉職了。"},{"start":81.013,"end":81.133,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":98.66,"end":100.02,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條"},{"start":124.628,"end":152.979,"text":"所以我還是希望藉由這個機會讓國人同胞能夠理解到說財政資源不是可以無限擴張的那我們當然希望能夠提升所有的人的權益但是在職人員不管是警消人員他們所需要的裝備資源的提升那是必須迫在眉睫現在就必須做的所以提升的這個裝備的標準還有這個完善的訓練的計劃甚至是心理健康的支持譬如說我們剛剛提到的這些警消人員那他們的弟兄"},{"start":153.439,"end":153.859,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":171.94,"end":188.307,"text":"這不僅僅是對警察人員在職人員的個人權益的保障他是對整個社會的長期投資那如果我們要思考到整個社會的長期投資的話那是不是方方面面都必須要納入考量而不是只有退職人員而已還有限職的人員不知道這個部分"},{"start":189.187,"end":189.647,"text":"條例修正三草案案案"},{"start":219.427,"end":228.355,"text":"二）委員三草案案案的十一億的經費,包括消防員以後身體健康的檢查,這些都是我們納入後續輔導的協助項目,整個施政的部分包括在職人員"},{"start":234.48,"end":239.381,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11"},{"start":256.866,"end":258.847,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":285.16,"end":285.28,"text":"二）委員馬瑪次長"},{"start":298.396,"end":317.352,"text":"委員好 次長好 那次長過去在學術界的時候應該是常去美國的一些疾難相關的特別是疾難救助相關的這些部門來去取經 那想說次長現在就任之後是不是有相關的規劃讓我們的警消人員特別是消防人員能夠有更完整的這樣子的訓練"},{"start":318.753,"end":334.635,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前採取兩個方式一個就是說我們有持續邀請美國的教官到台灣來針對我們現在警消在戰技戰術上面的一些訓練那在進行那這部分在消防署的訓練中心跟警政署都有在進行"},{"start":335.396,"end":336.497,"text":"二）委員現在這樣的人數大概是多少"},{"start":356.749,"end":357.249,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"154017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0aa11411e46cf39328ff7e0bc1ebc5021fe2aa8cbc518221f542a0eef5cefb9855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:32:02 - 13:39:06","影片長度":"00:07:04","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T13:32:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T13:39:06+08:00","duration":424,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1188,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時32分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請署長。"],["主席：張署長嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：嗯。"],["主席：張署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看到今天所有藍綠白委員的發言，以及社會大眾的聲音，你心裡做何感想？"],["張署長榮興：每個委員的發言我都尊重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你都尊重，那你的論點呢？"],["張署長榮興：今天有很多委員的提案，如果站在本署的立場，就是現職跟退休的同仁我們都會照顧。現在就是對於第三十五條提案，本署會跟相關的主管機關積極協調，看怎麼處理會比較好，比如……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，怎麼處理會比較好？"],["張署長榮興：比如像所得替代率的數字，是不是要高到90%、95%，這個部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以是有討論的空間嗎？"],["張署長榮興：是有討論的空間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就因為這一句「有討論的空間」我們來看，所有外勤警消人員的超勤津貼，努力了22年，才將它的支領上限定在1萬9,000元，如果以物價指數的調漲、通膨的調漲，這1萬9,000元幾乎等於是沒漲，是不是啊？"],["張署長榮興：對，如果以現在的物價狀況，大概就是衡平。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以從這個論點看，我們要非常理性去討論這個問題，警消、海巡他們的工作任務跟其他人不一樣，他們在公務人員當中，等於是占據高危險群第一名，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對嘛！你這麼有自信的說，所以本席非常希望，在立法院本來就是不管任何一個委員，他接觸到的民意，他來這邊發言，代表著民意在發言，但是行政部門，你們應該要以你們自己的立場，勇於說出真話。當時我們在努力爭取這個超勤津貼的時候，經過了22年都沒有調，22年之後才有上限，上限喔！還不是每個人都拿得到1萬9,000元。誠如剛才署長說的，如果以目前的通膨，他等於是平盤，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：員警、海巡和我們的消防人員出生入死，沒有理由不照顧他們嘛！對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！所以相關單位，你們坐著你們也聽到，怎麼樣去盤點、去計算，有討論的空間，怎麼讓它有這個空間出來，鼓勵這些出生入死的兄弟姐妹，這是一個有為的政府應該要照顧的嘛！對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼就把它扭曲成好像罪人一樣呢？不可能，事實會顯現出來，本席就用這一點，22年的超勤津貼，出生入死，22年終於讓政府看到，上限超勤津貼就只有1萬9,000元。所以我第三次說，如果以目前這個狀況，它等於是沒有加錢，我要請社會大眾看到，這一些兄弟姐妹是需要照顧的，是需要尊重的，是需要讓他們有一個榮耀的，對不對？署長。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我很感謝署長這個回答。我再用兩分鐘就好。您的論點是要精簡，本席非常贊成，警察現在什麼都做，等於雞飛狗跳，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你一上來就精簡，本席聽到滿高興的，你的五大方向，毒跟詐，毒是第四項。現在所有的看守所跟監獄，最多的人犯就是詐騙跟毒，所以你的第四項跟第五項是目前社會中非常迫切需要的。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以請教，因為暑假快到了，年輕的孩子涉世未深，不管各種方式都會被引誘，本席非常重視教育，尤其是國中生，甚至國小五年級、六年級，哇！家長心裡很慌，要怎麼辦？我們有沒有什麼方法，可以協助這些孩子去認清楚？譬如之前我們拜託紙風車以戲劇的方式，在我們的學校巡演，效果非常好，讓孩子可以知道，回去也告訴家長。署長，暑假要到了，你針對暑假，學校孩童毒品氾濫的問題要怎麼解決，有沒有什麼新方案？"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，我們暑假期間，各部會大概就是會實施一個青春專案。這個青春專案就是會結合各部會的力量，讓暑假期間的學生不會去違法，或者可能去當詐欺的車手也好，又或者是接觸到毒品，我們都會結合學校的單位，進入學校做宣導。另外各部會也提供很多有益身心健康的活動，讓這些學生來參加，比如有籃球、桌球或者各項有益身心健康的活動，讓他們暑假期間有這些地方可以去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我要謝謝署長，你講得非常有信心，但是每一年的暑假都會有這個專案，所以我希望新任的署長有所作為。你去盤點，因為快要到暑假了，你去盤點方案要怎麼做，書面資料詳細給本席，我們一定要保護這些孩子，好不好？謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。下一位我們請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra 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等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.011593750000003,"end":17.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.31096875,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.56409375,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.22596875,"end":21.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.52534375,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.52096875,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.094718750000002,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.05596875,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.54471875,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.822218750000005,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.88971875,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.454718750000005,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.48846875,"end":43.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.50534375,"end":43.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.46721875,"end":49.947218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.40284375,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.265968750000006,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.86846875,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.91784375,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.16659375,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.24659375,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.97596875,"end":83.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.97971875,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.88159375000001,"end":96.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.11284375000001,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.44159375000001,"end":101.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.24284375,"end":104.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.06096875,"end":106.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":107.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.78596875000001,"end":114.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.81971875,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.07284375,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.27534375,"end":110.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.29221875,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.35971875000001,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.25346875000001,"end":116.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.33346875000001,"end":116.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.89034375000001,"end":118.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.50596875000001,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.29846875000001,"end":125.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.59346875000001,"end":128.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.29784375,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.47471875000002,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.46159375000002,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.50784375,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.90409375000002,"end":137.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.57909375,"end":137.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.35534375,"end":141.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.84846875,"end":157.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.74034375000002,"end":164.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.40159375000002,"end":172.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.62846875000002,"end":173.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.94471875000002,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.27346875,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.98596875,"end":180.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.66096875000002,"end":180.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.67784375000002,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.11659375000002,"end":182.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.98971875,"end":189.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.87471875,"end":190.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.54971875,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.56659375,"end":190.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.32596875000002,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.06846875000002,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.15659375,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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«警察人員人事條例十五條條文修正草案案案案案案﹚一）委員"},{"start":89.505,"end":114.406,"text":"努力了22年才將他的息率上限定在一萬九千元。如果以物價指數的一個調漲通膨的調漲這一萬九千元幾乎幾乎等於是沒漲是不是啊是不是如果說以現在的這個物價的狀況大概就是橫平了"},{"start":115.802,"end":121.245,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．一）委員"},{"start":130.523,"end":135.726,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．事條例修正條文及增訂附表三草案．事條例修正條文及增訂附表三草案．"},{"start":159.123,"end":178.58,"text":"當時我們在努力爭取這個超級境界的時候經過了22年都沒有條22年之後才上線上線喔還不是你每一個人都拿得到的一萬九千元就如剛剛署長你所說的如果以目前的通膨它等於是平盤啊"},{"start":180.046,"end":185.491,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法律第1會期司法及法律第1會期司法及法律第1會期司法及法律第1會期"},{"start":207.689,"end":232.38,"text":"這是一個有違對政府應該要照顧的嘛對不對對怎麼就把你扭曲得他好像罪人一樣呢不可能事實會顯現出來本席就用這一點22年這操刑今天出生入死22年終於讓政府看到上線操刑今天就只有19000"},{"start":235.717,"end":260.48,"text":"所以我第三次說如果以目前這個狀況他等於是沒有加錢我要請社會大眾看到這一些兄弟姊妹是需要照顧的是需要尊重的是需要讓他們有一個榮耀的對不對署長對所以我很感謝署長你這個回答那我再用兩分鐘就好"},{"start":261.408,"end":276.967,"text":"二）委員您的這個論點是要精簡本席非常贊成警察現在連什麼都做他整個雞飛狗跳對不對所以你上來這個精簡本席聽到蠻高興的你的五大方向"},{"start":278.106,"end":293.673,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":308.41,"end":308.875,"text":"都會被引誘。」"},{"start":310.458,"end":314.219,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":339.939,"end":342.421,"text":"主席,我們暑假期間,我們各部會實施青春專案。"},{"start":357.79,"end":382.652,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制立法院第11�"},{"start":384.113,"end":393.577,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會及法制、內政委員會"},{"start":410.043,"end":412.206,"text":"二）委員謝龍介等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"}]}},{"id":"154016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0646ddc73bed2273d8ff7e0bc1ebc5021fe2aa8cbc518221f1053a2c2ab28c8d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"13:17:54 - 13:31:51","影片長度":"00:13:57","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T13:17:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T13:31:51+08:00","duration":837,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1146,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（13時18分）謝謝主席，想要請馬次長、張次長，李副人事長，然後署長也一起，既然來了，回到你們的問題，你們就主動回答。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我很想替他們爭取一下，大家連用個便餐的時間都沒有，實在太辛苦了。主席要不要等一下休息一下，讓他們用個餐好不好？我替他們爭取一下福利，這麼多議事工作人員，大家都辛苦。","我想任何一個退休金的制度，都是要世世代代領得到，長長久久領到老，任何一個退休金制度的設計，都應當如此。所以當我們換算，把它試比到國家的退休金制度，就應當如此，不論誰執政，基金都要永續，都要穩定，這是不論誰執政的歷史責任。因為這都要對世世代代的公務同仁，不論是軍、公、教、警消、醫護，都要一致。","在2017、2018年我擔任立委的第一屆，我真的是在面對年改，那種社會一個很大的分歧。但是社會在歷經了討論之後，我們好不容易擁有改革的成果，所以年金改革不走回頭路，世代正義絕對不能開倒車。","照顧公務人員，用數字來說實話，蔡英文總統任內是做最多的，阿扁八年調整兩次公務人員的薪資，調升了6%；馬英九八年只調一次，調了3%；蔡英文總統一樣是八年，調三次，總體對公務人員提升了11%。所以照顧公務人員，我在講不論軍、公、教、警消、醫護等等，我們都努力做更多、做更好，就以實質的調薪來講，這沒有錯嘛！","署長也在這裡，針對警消，這幾年來我們也是努力做更多、做更好。四個面向，對於薪資與津貼的調整，不論是基層員警或是國道高速公路員警，每月薪資和外勤薪資都調升。在警勤加給、重要的勤務獎勵金，乃至於超勤加班費，我們都努力調漲，在薪資跟津貼的調整，署長我沒有說錯對不對？","第二大面向，醫療與健康保障，正因為我們好不容易成立了公益信託警察醫療及照護基金，我們已經補助了5,945案，核發了1億5。正因為有這樣一個制度，我們讓醫療健康保障對於警消也做更多、做更好對不對？退休與福利保障，我們同樣方方面面去改良它，至於勤務與安全的保障，從各類保險的提升，對於各類津貼的加給，也都努力來照顧警消。","我這四大面向的整理，請問次長、署長，我都沒有說錯嘛！所以不要因為今天退休警消人員的修法有過、沒有過，就對不同意見的委員們冠上帽子，說你沒有挺這條，就是沒有照顧我們的警察人員或消防人員，我覺得這樣不對。我們衡平來看，蔡英文政府挺警消四大面向，我們真的努力做更多、做更好，我覺得這個我們要很自信的對社會來論述。","所以年改不走回頭路，我是真的認為，國民黨有11個版本的委員提案，真的恐怕是走上倒行逆施，反年改、反進步，摧毀我們正向的改革成果。我歸納了三大理由，第一、大家適用同一個基金，同一種繳費的基準，退輔的制度就應當一致，這才是公平。第二、確保基金的永續，除了要擴大照顧退休的警消人員，更要兼顧現役在服務國家人民的警消人員，這才是真正的正義。","第三、這個會期我真的很遺憾，一再看到在野黨委員慷國家之慨，提出違反憲法第七十條，或是違反大法官釋字第391號的解釋，也一再提出違反財政紀律法第五條、第七條的授權，立法委員不能為增加預算之決議、提案。如果你要提升，也應當載明它合理的財源或新增財源在哪裡，這是立法院自己修的財政紀律法，2019年新頒布的。請問我反對現在幾個修法版本的三大歸納理由，還有沒有遺漏的？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，委員掌握的資訊非常正確，我們這邊也非常同意委員對整個事情的分析，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我進入條文來論述。這是當年2017年，我們在對社會論述，排除萬難，做到了年金改革，因為連馬英九前總統都說，年改今天不做，明天就會後悔。我們基於國人平均壽命的延長，年輕人的負擔更重，所以要改；基於各項退休基金的收支失衡，破產在即，所以要改；基於年金的給付不一致，各類人員的保障水平參差不齊，所以我們要改。改的一個最重要的目標，就是落實世代正義，這是當年的論述、當年的主張。","我們克服萬難去做年金改革，我們來檢視有沒有達到改革的正向成果：從提升基金的運作永續性上來看，軍人退輔制度相對比較沒有破產的高度疑慮；教育人員的退休制度，從原本119年可能有破產之虞，因為我們改革了，它延後到133年；公務人員退休撫卹的基金，原本120年就可能破產，我們讓它延後到135年對不對？我的數字都正確嗎？如果我有錯誤，你們隨時反質詢沒有問題，OK嗎？正確嗎？"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，其實退撫基金在年改以後，財務是走向一個健康的狀態。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以這個年限我有沒有誤植？"],["張次長秋元：我們第八次的精算，退休公務人員我們會希望到140年。"],["吳委員思瑤：到140年？很好，謝謝您的指正。"],["張次長秋元：那是因為112年的個人專戶制，所以提早到135年，現在政府也努力依法在撥補，所以我們還是希望到140年。"],["吳委員思瑤：目標140年，好，謝謝您的指正，我不會覺得是反質詢，你反質詢得好，立委講不對，你就要來更正。剛剛是基金永續的年限，第二個就是實質，因為我們做了改革，可以挹注於基金的金額來看，退撫制度居然增加了633億的撥補，教育人員增加了998億，公務人員退休增加了803億。合計我們因為年改，實質減緩政府的財政壓力，而有效挹注我們的退撫基金，至今高達2,434億，我的數字正確嗎？還是更多？歡迎反質詢。"],["張次長秋元：差不多，但是我們現在的數字更高了。"],["吳委員思瑤：更高？"],["張次長秋元：更高，是2,674億。"],["吳委員思瑤：2,674億，很好，謝謝你的反質詢，讓我有更新update的機會。所以來看看臺灣因為年改，我們有實質的基金永續年限，以及我們基金的挹注財源，剛到了2,674億，很好。即便我們改了，我們砍了部分的退休金，但是實質上跟國際比一比，臺灣的實質所得替代率，仍遠高於OECD國家的平均。2022年OECD國家平均的所得替代率是61.4%，但是臺灣2022年的所得替代率，年改之後的已經砍了，還是高達69.23%。我們高於OECD國家8%，代表臺灣的退休公務人員，政府想方設法照顧退休公務人員，比國際都還努力做更多，這樣論述對吧？"],["張次長秋元：我們願意努力。"],["吳委員思瑤：願意做更多、做更好，很好，我很快的進入條文，謝謝主席。就從條文來講幾個不合理，現在國民黨11個版本，謝龍介跟丁學忠委員是到95%，另外9個版本像林思銘委員是到90%，其實都遠高於公務人員退休資遣撫卹法最高標的75%，增加20%以上，這就是一個公務人員之間的不公平。因為現在他如果停了，而且甚至增加他的所得替代率，會增加我們的退撫支出，減少收入，所以年改一場空，加速基金被掏空跟破產，在野黨能負責嗎？","我今天很謝謝看到我們銓敘部的最新資料，如果提高了，這個修法過了的話，平均以35年的年資來計的話，只要10到15年後，每年增加20億，20到29年後每年增加40億，30年後每年增加60億，對不對？這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛！Right？歡迎反質詢。"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，其實黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算，我們昨天晚上連夜就我們現在……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我看到你們那份資料……"],["張次長秋元：去做推估，原來我們講的每年15億減少挹注的部分，如果用50年精算，跟他現在警消占的挹注比例大概23%，這樣算下來，50年這個差距會是1,080億。"],["吳委員思瑤：1,080億？"],["張次長秋元：1,080億，這50年的……"],["吳委員思瑤：天啊！那趕快把這個正確數字，送到每一個委員手上。"],["張次長秋元：我們還要做精算，因為這是……"],["吳委員思瑤：1,080億，天啊！這是多大的一個破口。"],["張次長秋元：我們粗估的精算的一些參數。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，趕快把這個數字給所有的提案委員，如果這樣的話，基金破產，提案委員能負責嗎？立法院能負責嗎？謝謝你提供最新的資訊。好，我快結束了，不好意思主席。","我還發現一個問題，現在修法的版本，要把原本適用公務人員退休資遣撫卹法的這個抽出，用警察人員人事條例來訂定。他提高了所得替代率到95或90，但是連同每10年要遞減的那個，反而沒有放進來，對不對？所以是法律只抄半套，這是另外一個不公平、不正義，我要提出來。","而我看到，我們的退休金彈性調整機制原本就已經入法了，針對消費者物價指數，累計成長率達正、負5%的時候，每4年應予檢討，來擴大我們配合物價，定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革，方方面面都非常的全面。所以我希望經過我今天的論述，也再三的謝謝幾位對我的反質詢提供更正確的數字，讓我們再一次確認年金改革不走回頭路，不能夠因為委員大家想要做好人，慷國家之慨，但是卻摧毀了改革的成果，摧毀了國家的退休基金。","如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1,080億，天啊！如果年金破產了，在野黨能負責嗎？提案的委員能負責嗎？所以我再一次論述，三大反對的理由，同一基金，同一繳費標準，退撫的制度應當一致才是公平。我們要確保基金永續，不只要照顧退休的警消，更要兼顧現役的警消，這才是真正的正義。最後，不要再提這種違反憲法，違反財政紀律法的法案了，這會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序。","我們繼續努力，持續論述，也許我們是少數，也許會被強行通過，但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄。我相信社會大眾是站在真理，站在公平正義的一方，大家加油！謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。接下來我們請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員。","下一位我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.57096875,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.56221875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.03471875,"end":3.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.25409375,"end":3.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.915343750000002,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.796593750000003,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.872218750000002,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.981593750000002,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.92096875,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.367843750000002,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.74721875,"end":34.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.74284375,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.00846875,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.25721875,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.52784375,"end":81.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.29659375,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.99221875,"end":102.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.62659375000001,"end":104.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.10721875,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.09409375000001,"end":111.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.92471875000001,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.54846875,"end":177.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.29846875,"end":224.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.77221875,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.66221875000002,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.47596875,"end":274.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.63784375,"end":275.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.15659375,"end":277.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.36721875,"end":279.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.64534375,"end":284.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.59409375,"end":300.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.97971875,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.36346875000004,"end":323.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.69346875,"end":338.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.89784375000005,"end":345.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.50409375000004,"end":354.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.50721875000005,"end":357.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.40971875,"end":373.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.98096875000005,"end":400.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.77409375,"end":419.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.81346875,"end":433.29659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.43159375000005,"end":433.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.84909375,"end":435.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.45659375,"end":435.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.33409375,"end":441.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.02096875,"end":442.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.05471875,"end":442.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.39221875000004,"end":442.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.51034375,"end":442.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.52721875000003,"end":444.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.80971875,"end":450.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.96471875000003,"end":453.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.13721875000005,"end":466.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.46096875,"end":462.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.70096875,"end":479.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.97284375000004,"end":507.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.52096875,"end":516.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.99284375,"end":514.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.23721875,"end":560.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.4834687499999,"end":575.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.3459687500001,"end":577.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.81409375,"end":578.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.0122187500001,"end":604.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.4384687500001,"end":607.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.9653437500001,"end":639.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.25596875,"end":641.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.5803437500001,"end":643.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.4365937499999,"end":644.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.44909375,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tart":576.38,"end":584.464,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期司法及法制第1會期"},{"start":605.595,"end":630.094,"text":"公務人員之間的不公平。」下一頁因為現在他如果停了而且甚至增加他的所得替代率會增加我們的退府支出減少收入所以年長連改一場空加速基金被掏空跟破產在野黨能負責嗎我今天很謝謝看到我們全序部的最新資料是說如果提高了這個修法過了的話平均以35年的年資來計的話"},{"start":631.255,"end":645.815,"text":"只要10到15年後每年增加20億,20到29年後增加每年40億,30年後每年增加60億。對不對?這就是加速我們的破產的可能嘛。Right?歡迎反諮詢。"},{"start":648.837,"end":672.963,"text":"報告委員剛才黃國昌委員有希望我們再做精算在我們昨天晚上連夜就我們現在看到你們那份資料去做做推估原來我們講的每年15億的那個減少挹注的部分如果用50年精算跟他現在警消站的這個挹注的比例在23%這樣算下來50年"},{"start":677.024,"end":677.545,"text":"這個差距會是1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億1080億"},{"start":696.798,"end":697.038,"text":"一﹗一﹗一﹗一"},{"start":713.02,"end":740.548,"text":"現在呢修法的版本要把原本是用公務人員退休之前撫恤法的這個抽出用警察人員人事條例來訂定但是他提高了這個所得替代率到95或90但是連同每年10年要累減的那個反而沒有放進來對不對所以這個是法律只抄半套這是另外一個不公平不正義我要提出來再下一個"},{"start":741.604,"end":767.754,"text":"而我看到我們原本的退休金彈性調整的機制原本就已經入法了。針對消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五的時候每四年要引以檢討來擴大我們配合物價定期檢討保障退休人員生活需要的權益。原本的配套改革方方面面都非常的全面。所以我希望經過我今天的論述也再三的謝謝幾位對我的反質詢提供更正確的數字讓我們再一次確認"},{"start":770.495,"end":789.955,"text":"年金改革不走回頭路不能夠因為委員大家想要做好人抗國家之慨但是卻摧毀了改革的成果摧毀了國家的退休基金如果剛剛講的50年就要增加1080億天啊如果年金破產了"},{"start":790.856,"end":810.835,"text":"在野黨能負責嗎?提案的委員能負責嗎?所以我再次論述三大反對的理由同意基金同意繳費標準對付的制度應當一致才是公平我們要確保基金永續不只要照顧退休的警消更要兼顧現役的警消這才是真正的正義最後一項"},{"start":811.536,"end":836.248,"text":"不要再提這種違反憲法違反財政紀律法的法案了這是會拖垮國家的財政制度跟法律的秩序謝謝我們繼續努力我們持續論述也許我們是少數也許會被強行通過但是社會面的論述我們絕對不能放棄我相信社會大眾是站在真理站在公平正義的一方大家加油謝謝謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"154015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba038d62f28cc13d0f88ff7e0bc1ebc5021fe2aa8cbc518221f31d4186e9443af555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:07:22 - 13:17:48","影片長度":"00:10:26","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T13:07:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T13:17:48+08:00","duration":626,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1094,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時7分）謝謝主席，我直接請張榮興署長好不好？"],["主席：麻煩張署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝張署長，今天很多委員都在講，我們支持保障警察或消防弟兄退休的權益，再過兩天就是6月15日警察節，也感謝召委在今天能夠排這樣的案子。但最重要的是，根本問題有沒有解決？警界會反彈退休的保障不足，是因為退休警察在職期間的權益不充分、被剝奪，也因此重視現職警察權益改革的必要性，避免歷史重蹈覆轍，這是大家都要重視的。現在的制度延後退或是給付少，其實在之前的年金改革國是會議裡也有提出來，除了修改退休金以外，要改善警察的勞動條件，否則就只是改惡。","署長，本席有注意到您這兩天接受媒體的專訪，主要是提到您上任還不到一個月，但是你應該也要針對我們最近警務的勞動條件，或是說警務業務繁重的部分要做一些改革。尤其我們真的不想再看到任何基層員警自戕的情況發生，所以你有提到業務要精簡，業務評比要減少，有沒有具體的作為或建議？"],["張署長榮興：有，目前我們對於勤務業務有重疊性的，比如像……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼樣的勤務？"],["張署長榮興：比方業務性的，像現在打詐宣導的部分，有一些沒有做精準的，我們先減少到精準一點，有些是從事網路或實體的，有一些可能要找首長照相，要找什麼來照相算作績效的，這部分會增加同仁的困擾，我都把它減少。"],["洪委員孟楷：拿掉？"],["張署長榮興：把它拿掉，就是對這些效果，執行上效果把它拿掉。第二部分是有一些專案性的工作，不是綿密的做，而且做了要有效用，要精準的打擊。比如各種專案，不管是黑道幫派、詐欺、毒品或者是槍枝，這些會因應狀況來做精準的打擊。第三部分是我們警察很多工作是職務協助，就是協助其他行政機關一些工作的部分，我們現在統計大概有229項，這個部分我們儘量在行政程序法，請其他機關在他們自己的權責劃分自行執行，減少警力相關的執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠提出來？"],["張署長榮興：我已經……"],["洪委員孟楷：你身為警察的大家長，當然你可能要跟其他署……"],["張署長榮興：我就職之後就交代，行政組是屬於職務協助，秘書室是屬於勤、業務，也有請主秘召開一次會議，把那些什麼警政工作再出發幾點零廢掉，回歸一般的，這些精簡的工作，我會在8月1號以前全部整個提出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：8月1號？還要兩個月的時間。"],["張署長榮興：對，會去做盤點。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，本席為什麼特別講？兩個部分，第一、你剛講到打詐沒有錯，我自己在第一線跟基層員警同仁，還看到所長、分局長都還要不厭其煩，利用每一次餐會時間上台致詞的時候，拿著麥克風跟大家講要反詐騙，如果遇到什麼狀況的時候，不要去ATM轉帳，要打165詐騙專線。我心裡在想：「天啊！我們的員警同仁，連到現在這個時候，都還必須要這樣不厭其煩的講，那根本就是源頭管理嘛！」源頭的部分，我看到你這兩天的媒體訪問也有講到源頭，這跟本席過去到現在的質詢不謀而合，如果那些源頭沒有處理完畢，真的是累死我們所有的基層同仁，這是第一個。"],["張署長榮興：對，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至之前，我們還有聽到基層同仁說，上面交辦下來，要求我們第一線的員警同仁去找網紅、有線電視，找不用錢的宣傳，來做反詐騙的宣導，有沒有？"],["張署長榮興：我們這部分都已經把它精簡了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是上一屆署長任內有，但這一屆你把它精簡了？"],["張署長榮興：對，把它精簡了。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席就是要講這部分，真的就是擾民啊！甚至有員警直接來跟我反映，他還要用自己私人的關係拜託，因為沒有預算，只能用私人的關係去拜託地方電視台，能不能有公益時段，來刊登反詐騙的廣告，說這個要回報，所以這個部分在你任內就不會再處理，是不是？"],["張署長榮興：我跟委員報告，對於宣導的部分，確實給我們同仁增加很多工作負擔，而我覺得警察工作就是要專責去查緝，這部分我上任之後已經要精簡，做精準的而已。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在我們全國的警察都知道了嗎？"],["張署長榮興：都知道，公文已經下去了。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二、專案的部分，你剛剛有講到很多專案。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：這很像我們之前一直質疑民進黨政府，什麼都要搞辦公室，什麼都要搞國家隊，辦公室搞了三十幾個，國家隊搞了十幾個，變成所有都是辦公室，所有都是國家隊，但這是疊床架屋。照理講，我們中華民國政府本來就有相關的業務，各部會各司其職，一樣的道理，你剛剛提到專案，有什麼打詐專案、掃黑專案、防賭專案，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：實際上講，這些專案回過頭來看，本來就是業務啊！那為什麼要一個、一個專案成立之後，反而造成所有員警同仁為了一個又一個專案，好像所有署長或上面的長官覺得，不多設幾個專案，就沒有辦法凸顯我的偉大、我的效率。署長，現在有多少專案，你可以精簡多少？你是不是可以保留，讓警務同仁真真正正回歸到專業，回歸到業務？"],["張署長榮興：我現在的主架構就是黑、金、槍、毒、詐，為什麼會做精準的，就是要統合全國的力量，把他們盤點出來，因為有一些是流動性的。盤點出來之後會有一段期間，大家整合所有的警力來實施打擊，這樣才會聚焦，不會各做各的。這個是協同合作的概念，也不是取消，但是我們要讓它更精準。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以現在我們有多少個專案？"],["張署長榮興：黑、金、槍、毒、詐，黑道幫派……"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在是只限縮在這五個層面是不是？"],["張署長榮興：對，治安的部分就是黑、金、槍、毒、詐這五個架構，如果說專案的話，大概就會從這裡面因應現在實施的，譬如現在全民心裡最痛恨的大概就是打詐，我上任首要就是打詐，所以我希望打詐四法在院裡能趕快通過，讓我們有一個源頭，從源頭來做管理，源頭阻止了，我相信可以阻止80%的受騙。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，源頭管理是本席過去也一直強調的，甚至最近我們辦公室也接獲另外一種新型態的網路詐騙，以前網路詐騙是一頁式廣告對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：本辦公室最近收到一個最新型態的，我也會再具體的給警政署相關資料，他是直接仿照新聞媒體網站，生成內容去做詐騙。我覺得這更了不得啊！他不是一般的社群媒體、社群平台的詐騙廣告，他是社群平台直接點進去之後，可以連結到很像是新聞頻道，但裡面的新聞內容居然是詐騙，我覺得這又是另一種詐騙的變形。","像這種魔高一尺的，道應該要高一丈，相關源頭管理的部分，該給予執法單位源頭管理的，我們一定會要求、一定會給予。但更重要的是，我希望警政署，尤其是基層同仁，真的不要再那些長官說什麼，長官說太多的部分，而是回歸到原本業務的性質，精簡業務，這個是本席認同的部分。"],["張署長榮興：這個源頭，類似委員所講的，現在打詐不是只有內政部警察的工作，包括金管會、通傳會……"],["洪委員孟楷：數發部、NCC、金管會，沒錯！"],["張署長榮興：還有法務部。剛剛委員所講的源頭應該都在數發部，我們已經有在密集合作，會從源頭端做身分上的確認，或是國外公司要在臺灣有落地的法律代表人，未來這個法通過之後，我想應該會有很大的助益。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長你放心啦！該「釘」數發部的，我一定會「釘」得比你更兇啦！"],["張署長榮興：我不是這個意思啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：我只拜託署長，你身為警察的大家長，一定要幫我們把所有警察的權益保障好。"],["張署長榮興：沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：精簡業務，讓警察同仁回歸到本職，這才是本席希望看到的，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.96284375,"end":4.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.654093750000001,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.434093750000002,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.450968750000001,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.180343750000002,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.64409375,"end":19.082843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.36346875,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.03784375000001,"end":64.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.39221875,"end":74.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.56784375000001,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.22846875,"end":86.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.30784375,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.00784375,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.53096875,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.56471875000001,"end":101.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.34846875000001,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.59721875000001,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.47471875000001,"end":110.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.25034375000001,"end":108.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.96721875,"end":112.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.62096875,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.21721875,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.12846875,"end":160.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.38971875000001,"end":164.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.16971875000002,"end":171.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.20659375000002,"end":176.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.35346875000002,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.30534375000002,"end":195.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.30096875,"end":193.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.27471875,"end":207.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.18096875,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.49221875,"end":219.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.30159375000002,"end":212.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.72659375,"end":221.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.70534375000003,"end":220.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.97096875000003,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.12284375000002,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.27471875,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.69221875000002,"end":226.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.47659375,"end":250.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.24909375000001,"end":258.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.97784375000003,"end":271.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.26471875000004,"end":259.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.77471875000003,"end":263.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.92534375,"end":271.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.79846875000004,"end":284.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.04971875,"end":293.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.57159375000003,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.70659375,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.70596875,"end":299.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.39784375,"end":303.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.30471875,"end":300.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.90784375000004,"end":304.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.16909375,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.28221875,"end":329.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.14409375,"end":337.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.02034375,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.98596875000004,"end":345.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.93471875,"end":348.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.45784375,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.36471875,"end":348.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.75284375,"end":350.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.09034375000005,"end":349.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.17034375000003,"end":387.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.69346875,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.06721875000005,"end":406.9715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Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T13:00:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T13:07:15+08:00","duration":396,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1076,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（13時）謝謝主席，辛苦了，我們是不是請內政部的馬次長。"],["主席：馬次長。"],["林委員德福：還有銓敘部的張次長。"],["主席：張次長。"],["林委員德福：還有警政署張署長。"],["主席：張署長。"],["林委員德福：還有消防署蕭署長。"],["主席：蕭署長。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["林委員德福：根據中正大學調查，民眾對警察維護治安工作滿意度達到74.91%，有七成五的民眾肯定警察人員在工作上的專業表現。馬上6月15號就是警察節，本席首先要謝謝所有警察同仁，24小時、365天維護全國的治安。現任勞動部長何佩珊一句話說政府撥補勞保，負擔最終的支付責任就是改革。本席相信很多基層的警消聽了是非常不服氣，講實在話，警察跟消防能夠來上班工作是要經過考試的欸！其他的有經過考試嗎？沒有啊！而且有一點，法律不能溯及既往，今天修法以後，你追溯到過去跟政府簽的合約，然後來砍殺他們，有道理嗎？","我在立法院第七屆了，我們要講道理，而且那個年金改革，你說過去政府很多政策，講實在話，早上許宇甄委員講的，你們真的要汗顏，錯誤的政策比貪污100倍可怕。為什麼我這麼講？一個能源政策，光台電就撥補5,000多億，而且疫苗、快篩，林林總總太多了啦！講實在話，那些一次都幾百億、幾千億，甚至於那個臭雞蛋等等，這個實在不應該。包括數位發展部，花200多億做出什麼？下一個會期，我認為我們要把它砍殺，留這個部幹什麼？200多億撥補到我們消防署裡面，汰換那些老舊設備，不要讓消防人員一次次進去以後就掛掉了，老百姓是看在眼裡啦！該不該做的，你們應該好好探討。","2017年民進黨占絕對多數，推動整個年金改革的修法，導致這些基層警消所得替代率大幅度下降，對警察的退休生活產生很大的衝擊。包括監察委員都提出調查報告，說其實警察最近變成緩退，為什麼緩退？因為新陳代謝困難，基層警察他們沒辦法就老化了，因為斷層，大家不想當警察，老的又認為我退休以後就開始刪減，所以他們就繼續留。我要求內政部警政署、行政院人事總處，真的要檢討改進。","110年警察人員平均的餘命是75歲，國人平均餘命是80.86歲，換句話說相差6年之多。基層的警消常常要24小時輪替他們的任務、服勤，等於是日夜作息顛倒，導致他們的疾病、意外等等，明顯高於一般的公務人員，屬於高危險的職務。我認為你們是他們的長官，應該好好為他們設想，解決問題啦！人要摸著良心啦！講實在話，人在做天在看，我認為不該花的錢你亂花，結果來砍殺他們，這有道理嗎？次長，你的看法呢？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們方向上，對於現職警消同仁或者是退休警消同仁，都採取一視同仁照顧的立場，這個沒有問題。對於細節，就數字精算這個部分，可能我們要再多一些溝通。"],["林委員德福：年改溯及既往，已經跟人家簽約的，然後又砍殺，如果是今天修法以後從現在開始，那沒有話講，毋庸置疑，但是追溯政府跟人家簽約，這有道理嗎？可以用多數暴力來處理嗎？對不對？我相信這句話你們回應不出來啦！法律可以溯及既往，那我跟政府簽約是簽假的？我當初為什麼要經過普考、高考來做這份工作？不通的啦！","要是法律能溯及既往，整個都亂掉了啦！當初我在當國民黨團總召，他說軍公教勞全部都要處理，勞有沒有處理？大家心知肚明啦！勞工有一千多萬，勞工就擱在那裡，就只有處理軍公教，因為軍公教幾乎都是支持國民黨，把他砍殺，讓他們沒有辦法生活嘛！講實在話，摸著良心啦！我們這個社會要公平、要正義啦！以上，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。下一位我們請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra 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等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.12534375,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.340343750000002,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.20471875,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.301593750000002,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.81971875,"end":30.102218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.524093750000002,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.890968750000003,"end":32.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.66721875,"end":33.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.24909375,"end":49.221593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.626593750000005,"end":57.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.40159375,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.17159375,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.93846875,"end":84.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.82784375,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":86.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.30846875,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.08034375000001,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.63284375,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.38784375,"end":94.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.61534375000001,"end":97.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.66534375,"end":99.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.69471875,"end":101.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.97284375000001,"end":102.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.35659375,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.61346875000001,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.86096875000001,"end":117.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.78471875000001,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.23596875000001,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.39596875000001,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.52659375,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.79971875,"end":132.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.07346875000002,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.11471875,"end":143.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.00846875000002,"end":151.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.68659375000001,"end":153.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.76221875000002,"end":158.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.82034375,"end":163.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.97159375,"end":165.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.94596875000002,"end":170.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.97471875000002,"end":174.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.22721875000002,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.74971875,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.09971875000002,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.20471875,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.68971875000003,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.14659375000002,"end":216.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.27971875,"end":234.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.72846875000002,"end":240.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.96784375000001,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.04784375000003,"end":265.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.64346875,"end":271.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.56659375000004,"end":274.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.90784375000004,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.70471875000004,"end":280.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.51034375,"end":281.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.19784375,"end":284.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.04971875,"end":286.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.87221875,"end":288.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.98159375,"end":290.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.41159375,"end":292.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.62221875,"end":295.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.69784375,"end":296.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.31346875,"end":314.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.14221875000004,"end":315.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.18409375000005,"end":328.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.19471875000005,"end":330.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.20284375,"end":332.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.51471875000004,"end":335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«警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":361.904,"end":388.158,"text":"為什麼?勞當初我在當國民黨團總召他說軍公教勞全部都要處理勞有沒有處理大家心知肚明啦勞工有一千多萬勞工就擱在那裡就只有處理軍公教因為軍公教都是支持國民黨的嘛對不對幾乎都是支持國民黨把他砍殺嘛對不對讓他沒有辦法生活嘛"},{"start":389.738,"end":395.412,"text":"講實在話摸著良心我們這個社會要公平要正義以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0eec55ddfdbcba5d1560592432c08898efe2aa8cbc518221f63ff8162b629f57b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:16:33 - 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Tahovecahe委員：主委、副主委兩位過去都是事務官，現在兩位都是政務任用，所以我相信肩膀扛了很多的責任，過去沒有做到的我希望兩位在你們任內能夠把一些應該做而還沒有做到的趕快做好。所以我今天質詢要就一些我過去關心的、還沒有完成的，希望兩位可以加把勁。","第一個部分，我想提的就是我在111年1月有召開一個原住民傳統建築的協調會，什麼原因？現在文資局補助很多錢去處理布農族、排灣族、魯凱族的石板屋，但是截至目前為止，即便是40年前民國73年的建築法就已經放寬我們偏鄉的建築法規，但是仍舊沒有任何一間石板屋具有使用執照，大部分頂多是臨時的使用執照。所以我曾經在111年1月找中華民國建築師公會跟原民會來召開一個協調會，當時的結論是中華民國建築師公會說要有建築圖說他們才能夠做認證，所以不是法規的問題，而是從來沒有一個建築圖說。我們就希望你們原民會要去研究，要去編經費來處理，結果已經經過兩年多了，到目前為止我真的不知道你們做了沒有？這是第一個問題，我就不請你回答了，因為時間不夠。","第二個部分，我曾經在112年7月針對原鄉的失能老人、邊緣戶，他們要去入住住宿型機構的時候很辛苦、很困難，所以當時衛福部已經把入住住宿型機構補助的費用從5,000元調高到1萬元，我有請原民會做兩件事，第一個，先趕快去就未產生經濟效益的原住民保留地認定標準做出來，衛福部說他們願意尊重原民會的認定來放寬。第二個，我希望原民會也能夠編一些錢，跟衛福部一樣，幫忙這些沒有能力去住宿型機構的老人家，這個是有感的政策，已經過了一年多，希望可以給我一個回覆。","第三個問題是我也曾經開過一個協調會，我們有很多公有土地沒有辦法增劃編原保地，原因是出在它沒有劃入55個原住民的鄉鎮別，以至於沒有辦法去取得土地，這件事情其實在全國影響很大。簡單來講，像屏東有一個來義、又或者高雄的六龜、建山、二集團等等，非常的多，我們就是一直希望你們趕快去修公有土地增劃編原保地審查作業要點的規範，這個部分我也希望趕快給我一個回覆。","再來我也希望你們針對我曾經說過的，原鄉大部分的集會所都是民國83年以前的既存違建，第一，它年久失修；第二，它要修的時候因為沒有使用執照，所以沒有辦法取得政府的補助；第三，它要拆除費用也很龐大，沒有自有財源。所以我一直說原民會應該要提出一個專案來統一處理這一些，我也希望趕快給我一個報告。","第六個就是我過去一直講的，原民會有一個專門人才的獎勵要點，大部分的家長都一直跟我抱怨為什麼只有補助那些碩士、博士、專利的、還有體育傑出人才？難道對舞蹈的都不用嗎？我們不是很重視文化、音樂嗎？我講了很久還是沒有，像這個排灣女孩打敗41國得到全世界民俗舞蹈冠軍，結果她的家長說有沒有獎金？沒有！我也希望這個部分要趕快修。","第七個就是我們的原教法有規定，各級各類學校可以遴聘耆老還有具專長人士到學校做教學支援人員，這個部分我已經看到了，今年113年終於已經有了第一批，但是到底他的薪水怎麼算？還有工作的媒合問題，他要怎麼樣去學校任教？","以上我講的這些，因為時間的關係，這通通需要編列經費，我們8月預計要把預算書送到立法院，9月要做細部計畫說明表，時間很緊迫，如果你們今年再不編，就表示又要糊弄我一年，所以我想這個部分一定要處理，而且我講的這些都跟賴總統的政見有關係，很多的部分我下一次的質詢再來就教。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，也可以提書面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主席、謝謝主委、副主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，謝謝曾主委。現在繼續請盧縣一委員，也是一樣3分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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二、他要修的時候因為沒有使用執照沒有辦法取得政府的補助 第三他要拆除費用也很龐大沒有自由裁員所以我一直說原民會應該要提出一個專案來統一處理這一些那我也希望說趕快給我一個報告那第六個就是我過去一直講我們原民會有一個專門人才的獎勵要點"},{"start":245.129,"end":258.793,"text":"大部分的家長都一直跟我抱怨說為什麼只有補助那些碩士博士專利的還有體育傑出人才難道舞蹈都不用嗎我們不是很重視文化音樂嗎我講了很久還沒有像這個排灣女孩打敗41國她得到全世界民俗舞蹈冠軍結果她家長說有沒有獎金沒有"},{"start":266.496,"end":290.933,"text":"我也希望這個部分要趕快修那第七個就是我們的原教法有規定要去做一個各級各類學校他們的棋老還有我們的專長人士他們可以到學校做教學支援人員但是呢這個部分我已經看到了今年113年終於已經有了第一批但是到底他的薪水怎麼算那他的工作的一個媒合他要怎麼樣去學校"},{"start":291.613,"end":308.231,"text":"以上我想的這些因為時間的關係通通需要編列經費那麼我們8月預計要把預算書送到立法院9月要做細部計畫的說明表時間很緊迫我不知道如果你們今年再不編就是表示又要呼嚨我一年"},{"start":309.173,"end":318.773,"text":"所以我想這個部分一定要來處理而且這些我講的都跟賴總統的政見有關係那很多的部分我下一次的質詢我再來就這樣"}]}},{"id":"154011","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154011","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0805db20553edb2dc560592432c08898efe2aa8cbc518221f6da330844ad475d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"12:22:06 - 12:26:19","影片長度":"00:04:13","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T12:22:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:26:19+08:00","duration":253,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1331,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（12時22分）謝謝召委給我3分鐘的時間，有請我們的主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["盧委員縣一：主委，午安！"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員平安。"],["盧委員縣一：很高興我們在6月10號通過了我們期待已久的案子，其實我們剛剛也都有聽到鄭天財委員跟召委提到，所以我就不再說了，應該你會努力完成吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：如果依你的邏輯，你想看看，按照我們的人口，因為我們原民會包山包海，如果是一百多億的預算，你覺得應該要增加到多少會比較合理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前在明年度籌編的預算是125億，那當然我們希望……"],["盧委員縣一：如果你在跟主流社會講，你會說我們原民會這樣一個單位應該要多少億才合理？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為我們後續還有很多……"],["盧委員縣一：有沒有算過？你有沒有在睡前拿計算機算過？"],["曾主任委員智勇：當然這125億是不夠，我們想說未來還要面對……"],["盧委員縣一：我有算過，我算給你看，我們按照人口比例，像去年是2.8兆，我們大概是700億，扣掉國防、扣掉外交、扣掉海巡署這些不是我們的單位，如果折半，應該還有三百多億啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，其實原住民族的預算……"],["盧委員縣一：我的意思是說我們要有一個power去跟……"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是只有在原民會而已，其他的部會也有原住民族的預算。"],["盧委員縣一：對啊！你要去跟中央的部會說我們希望是這個層級，如果它給我們打折、再打折，也可以有兩、三百億啊！是不是這樣子？那其實門檻應該是在700億左右。好，我今天要講的就是我們課後老師的問題，因為現在都是國小，那希望能夠增列到國中，之前我們的召委已經有爭取到113年計畫要追溯補發，對不對？"],["主席：對，要符合勞基法。"],["盧委員縣一：對，是勞基法的一個原則，然後有基本薪資、勞健保，為什麼？因為我們現在有很多大學畢業的原住民學生，他們對教育有熱忱，他們在回鄉服務的時候希望能夠投入這一塊，主委，我希望你可以替他們想辦法，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以，勞基法的部分已經解決了。"],["盧委員縣一：接下來還有我們原住民的文化行政這個部分，因為我們建了很多的文物館，現在各鄉鄉民族文物館的人力是156個。我們沒有招考這樣的類科，其實應該要逐年編列這些名額在裡面，好不好？你目前有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前文化類科還沒有開設這樣的課程，我們進用的這些人雖然沒有公務員的資格，但是我們先進用他們，未來在原住民族的博物館也能夠無縫接軌。"],["盧委員縣一：可是因為他們沒有這樣的專業知識或是訓練，可能在推展上面就會有一定的落差，不是嗎？而且我們接下來還有國家級的博物館，對這些類科你不是應該要早一點去規劃嗎？好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，現在有這個類科，但是確實人數不夠。"],["盧委員縣一：不好意思，因為時間的關係，我要問最後一個問題，我們的社會安全網第二期計畫到明年就結束了，未來還有第三期社會安全網，現在是投入2.8億，那對於人力的部分你有沒有想過應該要怎麼辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對於原來的人，我們優先來留任，還有就是可以多33名社工督導，也希望是從裡面來升，然後還可以再補新的人。"],["盧委員縣一：好，希望你能夠著手進行我們都會原住民的這個部分，尤其是社工的問題，非常需要很多的人力跟財力去投入，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝盧縣一委員。主委，你的確是要思考一下，因為這個原住民的博物館要出來了，地點在高雄，你們的人員真的實在是要配套的進行，好不好？到時候我也會排一個專案報告請你們說明一下，謝謝。","登記發言的委員除不在場者之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員黃健賓、張智倫、丁學忠、高金素梅、莊瑞雄所提的書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢還有未及答復的部分請相關單位在一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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、扣掉海巡署這些不是我們的單位的話,我們應該如果折半應該還有300多億啊"},{"start":78.8,"end":97.054,"text":"我跟委員報告其實原住民族的預算不是只有在研究會而已其他的部會也有原住民族的預算我們可以希望是這個層級那如果他再給我們打折再打折也可以兩三百億是不是這樣子那我們的基本盤應該是在700億左右"},{"start":99.492,"end":117.347,"text":"我今天要講的就是我們課後的老師的問題因為現在都是國小那希望能夠陣列到國中那現在不是之前我們的招已經把它已經到113年就是追加對不對那我是希望是它是一個對勞基法的一個原則然後有"},{"start":118.327,"end":136.109,"text":"基本薪資、老計劃為什麼因為我們現在很多大學畢業的原住民學生他們對教育有熱忱他們回鄉服務的時候他們希望能夠投入這一塊希望你可以替他們想辦法可以嗎主委老計劃的部分已經解決了接下來還有我們的很多的我們的"},{"start":137.389,"end":155.465,"text":"原住民文化行政這個部分因為我們建了很多的文物館我現在看是156個各鄉鄉民族文物館那我們其實沒有招考這樣的一個類科其實我們應該要主點編列這些名額在裡面好不好有沒有這樣的規劃目前"},{"start":157.048,"end":180.669,"text":"目前這個類科文化類科是還沒有開設這樣的一個課程但是我們現在禁用的這些人也就是雖然沒有公務員的資格但是他們我們先禁用他們未來在原住民族的博物館也是因為他們沒有這樣的相對的一個專業知識或是說訓練可能在推展上面可能就會有一定的落差不是嗎"},{"start":182.708,"end":206.786,"text":"那而且我們接下來還有國家級的博物館這些類科你不是應該早點去規劃嗎?有這個類科確實人數不夠不好意思最後一個問題因為時間的關係我們的社會安全網到明年就是第二期就結束了還有第三期社會安全網那現在是2.8億的投入那我們這個人力的部分你有沒有想該怎麼辦?"},{"start":209.221,"end":230.292,"text":"原來的人我們優先來留任那還有就是說可以多了33名的這個社工督導也希望是從裡面來生然後就會還可以再希望你能夠著手進行這個我們都會原住民這個部分尤其是社工的問題非常的需要很多的人力跟財力去投入可以嗎是謝謝"},{"start":233.573,"end":250.046,"text":"主委的確是要思考一下這個原住民的博物館要出來了在高雄你們的人員真的是在是要配套的進行啊好不好這個我也會到時候請一個專案要請你們說明一下謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba06754f07201e0fb36c65fab1c545da5d01d141634ad16f55f0388751c3315306a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:36:35 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邀請次長次長好我們今天討論高教那高教的危機到底是怎麼樣呢在你的這個歷程裡頭你投資了在創新呢不斷的在推廣"},{"start":30.021,"end":50.413,"text":"您有一句話蠻吸引人的您說您關注的不再是教學方面的一個層面而是要如何透過教育讓台灣的下一代更有能力跟自信的去面對變化快速的未來世界 對不對所以在這樣的一個情況之下"},{"start":51.374,"end":65.79,"text":"教育是百年大計它也是社會長遠健康發展以及提升總體的競爭力非常重要的奠基的工程你拼命的點頭但是有人憂心說目前的這個現況"},{"start":67.452,"end":67.672,"text":"請做說明。"},{"start":85.587,"end":112.31,"text":"我想現在我們遇到當然就是少子化的挑戰所以我們現在其實是對於這個少子化一方面我們其實政府的政策是我們在2030我們有非常大的這個人力的缺口大概三十四萬人臺灣的產業所以我們現在其實是非常積極的在幫助這些大學那用政府以前都是各自學校在海外招生我們現在就是一起打群架把集結大的力氣那我們在"},{"start":112.79,"end":139.514,"text":"楊瓊瓔"},{"start":139.634,"end":157.663,"text":"本席給您一個方向目前我們政府推動的新南向政策其中一個最大的面向就是您剛才所說的人才的交流但是您沒有去盤點目前在國內的情況究竟是怎麼回事您告訴我的是2030年本席請問的是目前的社會現象"},{"start":162.984,"end":167.127,"text":"目前現在南向政策的人才交流目前狀態是如何嗎?"},{"start":171.633,"end":191.968,"text":"跟委員報告我們從106年開始實施的新南向產學專班到112年我們總共已經有兩萬出頭的新南向的學生在臺灣就學所以這個其實是已經有增加了整個外籍學生的這樣的一個量當然持續的我們還會繼續來做相關計畫以擴增到2030我們要累積到"},{"start":200.636,"end":209.413,"text":"講到一個重點如果讓有些人是操作成為是補充學校學生園的一個人口"},{"start":210.663,"end":211.103,"text":"你去盤點好不好"},{"start":231.068,"end":251.546,"text":"因為我們有一個政策下去我們必須要看它的結果是怎麼樣你去反點目前這些人的做法好的我們要宣導之不好的你要怎麼應對之因為你許下了到2030年要這樣的人數進來那想盡了一些辦法要怎麼樣去當高教"},{"start":252.287,"end":266.26,"text":"你的結果是如此嗎?所以也透過這樣子一個彩學專班合作來努力來推動所以你把你目前的盤點的方向然後書面資料給本席最後一個議題功課給你在競爭的這個國際高教的環境當中"},{"start":272.545,"end":296.421,"text":"我們也看到了目前有這個85%納入台灣大學當然也是你自己的學校我們比以往特別一個重點在於就業成果我們是往下滑的這個跟你的理念好像你要推廣的它反而是往下滑的是什麼原因你也把你這個詳細的書面資料給本席"},{"start":300.145,"end":306.34,"text":"楊瓊瓔"}]}},{"id":"154008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba02919d41191c7b8308ff7e0bc1ebc50211d141634ad16f55f7e7c4e88479a19625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:28:08 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Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T12:28:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:35:43+08:00","duration":455,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":960,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時28分）謝謝主席，本席請銓敘部張次長，還有警政署張署長。"],["主席：請張次長及張署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有消防署蕭署長。"],["主席：請蕭署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：張次長，恭喜您高升次長，我們好像十幾年前在新竹縣議會……"],["張次長秋元：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您那時候是人事處長。"],["張次長秋元：鏡蘭秘書非常照顧，非常感謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：先恭喜您。今天想跟您討論，我們今天是談警察人事條例，內容包含警消，首先第一個就是同工同酬跟不同工不同酬，您認同吧？"],["張次長秋元：對，同工同酬，不同工不同酬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們的警消人員和一般坐辦公室的公務員……"],["張次長秋元：制度上設計是不同的，我剛剛有報告過，等一下我可以再跟委員做比較詳細的說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您認同嘛。"],["張次長秋元：我們現制也是這樣在處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我發現你們的報告有寫，就是銓敘部的報告，他們雖然有比較高，但他們工作的危險性和勞動性的程度跟一般公務人員就是不一樣。"],["張次長秋元：這應該是整體面的，我們是就我們人事制度的部分做了哪些事，剛才署長那邊也有說了很多在工作上、配備上、整個的執勤方式應該有更多的配套讓警消同仁能夠有更好的保障。"],["徐委員欣瑩：配備歸配備，但對於警消人員應有的照顧和福利，我們不能忽視，就是不能同等於一般公務人員。"],["張次長秋元：我們的態度是一般公務人員跟警消，警消方面我剛才已經表態過了，我非常尊敬警消的同仁夥伴。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是啊，我們都是。"],["張次長秋元：對我們來講，公務人員和警消人員，其實手心是肉、手背也是肉，我們必須要有一個衡平的對待。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就先到這裡。公務人員有週休二日，還有國定假日、休假、加班補休，可是警消是輪班制，甚至常常出勤要熬夜，他們還支援非警勤務，最重要的是他們都是冒著生命危險在執勤，所以首先你還要瞭解到，我請兩位署長上來就是說，既然次長說薪水這麼優渥，對他們的照顧好像已經比較好了，我請警政署長和消防署長分別簡答，為什麼警消缺額的問題一直沒有辦法解決？為什麼那麼少人想要去？警消加給這麼多，可是離職這麼多，而且還有提前申請退休等等，多做幾年不是更好，領更多。"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，跟委員搶一點點時間。我們的統計，這幾年警消的退休是一個比較常態的現象，每年大概一千六百多人到1,800人，它是一個穩定的狀態，所以剛剛提到所謂退休潮等等……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這幾年人就一直不足，警消人員都不足，你聽一下警政署和消防署的聲音好不好？"],["張次長秋元：我們這端的統計資料呈現出來就是這樣的狀態，我們可以把數據提供給您。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。警察的工作不同於其他一般的公務人員，真的是非常繁重。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，危險。"],["張署長榮興：除了本身的工作之外，有危險性、不特定性而且是在輪班，生活步調紊亂，不是只有本身的工作，還有其他機關的職務協助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，非警勤務。"],["張署長榮興：佔的非常多，所以有些在退休的考慮上可能有時候就是因為經年累月受不了，可能就是提早退休。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們的立場，尤其時代的變化，我們看到警消人員都非常辛苦，當然我們警察人員更是，消防人員是有勤務的時候來協助，但是警察平常打擊犯罪等各方面非常辛苦且危險，所以我覺得給他好的退休制度、好的退休金制度，還有薪水高一點，我認為不能按照一般公務人員來看待。警政署署長有回答了，有關消防人員，蕭署長你簡單答10秒。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，我們消防人員去年本來要進用1,000位，考試通過300位。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個我在內政委員會問過你了，你不用講。"],["蕭署長煥章：所以未來的幾年，1,000位跟400位是同樣會進駐。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我指的是消防人員工作上的辛苦。"],["蕭署長煥章：當然消防人員工作相當辛苦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：而且危險。"],["蕭署長煥章：隨時因應勤務狀況需要出勤，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長，10年前警察號稱8萬大軍，現在剩下7萬，人手變少但勤務增加，加上社會變遷，他們都非常的辛苦。所以我們還是希望，如果真的要講到整體，當然我相信很多委員也有講，整個整體，我們有為的、廉能的政府，錢是絕對可以替民眾、對各行各業來想辦法，但是我也認同要合理，這個合理就在於我們大家要共同來看，我們對警消人員的照顧是不夠的，我們希望對他們能夠更好，所以這個部分也希望次長能夠重視，本席今天就特別跟你談，針對警消我們本來就不一樣。最後表達的就是有關年金改革，其實年金改革也是對不起軍公教人員，怎麼可以違反信賴保護原則？只是這個部分在過去，過去8年我們不談，所以……"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，經過大法官會議解釋……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你自己也是公務人員，我們就是對不起軍公教。"],["張次長秋元：我們事實上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你如果要改革，可以，但是不能溯及既往，這個是最重要的原則。今天談警察人事條例的部分，我們是針對警消的辛苦跟危險，我們一定要重視，所以他們的照顧我覺得是可以加權、可以加重的，就這樣，謝謝。"],["張次長秋元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請張智倫委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.40159375,"end":4.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.55346875,"end":4.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.64159375,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.87721875,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.660968750000002,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.72846875,"end":19.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.36971875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.980343750000003,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.70596875,"end":29.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.69721875,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.23284375,"end":35.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.65471875,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.53596875,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.97471875,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.447218750000005,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.438468750000006,"end":39.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.244093750000005,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.27721875,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.102218750000006,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.27909375,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.11409375,"end":63.632843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.93659375000001,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.49721875,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.95284375,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.62346875,"end":73.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.42034375,"end":77.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.22159375000001,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.26346875,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.11971875,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.24596875,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.27971875,"end":82.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.31346875,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.96284375,"end":86.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.46471875,"end":94.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.81409375000001,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.66596875,"end":94.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.93596875,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.92221875000001,"end":108.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.28409375000001,"end":129.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.33409375000001,"end":114.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.20284375000001,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.96221875,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.62034375,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.48471875000001,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.91784375,"end":141.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.44784375,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.56159375000001,"end":141.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.27034375,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.40034375000002,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.25534375,"end":160.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.78659375,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.32659375,"end":218.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.52284375000002,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.59034375000002,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.86596875,"end":230.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.27096875,"end":221.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.88659375,"end":222.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.86409375000002,"end":237.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.69034375,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.68534375000002,"end":247.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.62534375,"end":249.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.15659375,"end":249.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.20721875,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.40971875000002,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.42659375000002,"end":249.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.44346875000002,"end":249.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.49409375000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.81471875000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案。"}]}},{"id":"154007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba049bdb864f7e997285c95aab381092a401d141634ad16f55fde4db3fcf8990ae15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:26:32 - 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對不對"},{"start":202.462,"end":230.997,"text":"為什麼東方科大跟其他的科大為什麼要輪到退場也有它的原因不能完全歸咎要少子化所以你的政策國外很重要另外企業的導入企業資源的導入也很重要國內很多半導體產業半導體的大廠他們資金雄厚啊由他們來接手對他們而言是非常先而易舉的事情但是可以培養他們所需要的人才"},{"start":232.674,"end":260.389,"text":"您現在手上口袋清單列出來目前只能等待要退場的計職大學有幾所市長跟委員報告目前就是7月今年這4所退場之後目前暫時是沒有的所以未來會更嚴重少子化問題還是一直惡化下去所以不是沒有救還是有就是你辦法要用對"},{"start":261.806,"end":262.686,"text":"另外Stan的領域"},{"start":287.461,"end":287.741,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":311.076,"end":332.683,"text":"為什麼我們比例會比別人還低?比其他國家還低?主要原因是什麼?這個可能時間上的關係啊師長或者這個師長再去了解一下怎麼樣把這個比例能夠提升我們有一個計畫就是專門在推動這個提升女性投入實戰領域的你要有一個目標值有有有好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba092db37520367b4898ff7e0bc1ebc50211d141634ad16f55f277aaf2a4e3413f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:19:00 - 12:28:01","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T12:19:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:28:01+08:00","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":934,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（12時19分）謝謝召委，有請銓敘部張次長。"],["主席：麻煩張次長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：還有警政署張署長。"],["主席：警政署長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：張署長，第一次跟你請教問題。","我先請教一下次長，我看今天我們審查警察條例這個部分，如果我們單獨去提高所得替代率的一個上限到90%到95%，你不覺得這又回到年改前的狀況了嗎？"],["張次長秋元：對，我們擔心的就是這樣的狀態。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我最擔心的是什麼？剛才提到整個基金所有適用的對象應該是一致的去對待，這是整個財政規劃的核心，你如果說單單的去破壞整個基金繳費跟給付標準的一致的基本原則，比如警消人員的部分，給付的替代率你去把它增高了，但繳費沒有改變，在繳費沒有改變的情況下，其實對其他人來說，這個不對等就等同其他公務人員去補貼警消，會不會有這樣的狀況？"],["張次長秋元：會，會有這樣的狀況，所以我們今天提出建議聯席會希望可以維持現行制度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以本席有幾個問題要來就教。今天這個案子，其實大家在講道理，牽扯到整個國家財政的問題，對於警消人員的照顧，我相信我們這些兄弟，把青春跟歲月奉獻給國家這些退休的警察和消防人員，其實對他們的照顧不是只有說加錢這件事情，加錢大家都喜歡，但問題是大家要想想看，我記得從小英政府2016年上台以後推動年金改革，推動年金改革以後，當初是說以世代正義來當一個核心，搭配許多的方向，除了這次法案的攻防點調降軍公教所得替代率，其實跟國際接軌，逐步去改革我國的各項年金制，本來一貫的政策邏輯是如此。當年修法時很重要的是修正公務人員退休資遣撫卹法，修正所得替代率的部分，目前任職滿15年所得替代率45%，之後開始每一年增加1.5，最高到35年的75%，之後開始這樣去做一個遞減，當然還有36年到40年的部分，我就暫時先不討論。以目前年金改革的結果，以113年來說，35年年資退休的所得替代率67.5%，一直到118年就變成60%，變成60%，這是當年年金改革很重要的一個結果。我記得從2017年的時候，你精算的報告結果出來以後，如果按照當時18%的優存和這麼高的所得替代率，我們當初是講到2031年，也就是民國120年時就會透支了，是不是這樣？次長。"],["張次長秋元：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，那你要想想看，改革以後銓敘部第8次的精算結果說目前公務人員退撫基金出現負數年度將會在民國140年，這遠比當初改革前整整多撐了20年。"],["張次長秋元：我們希望維持一個世代的穩定。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說啊！我們當初這樣的改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代，我以年資35年一線三星警正四階當例子，113年，現在退休的話，按照現制的所得替代率67.5%，剛你說67.5%嘛，他的月退俸差不多6萬2,897,如果到118年退休所得替代率60%的話，大概是5萬5,908。其實好景不常，我看到今天在野黨提出的這個法案，如果按照在野黨現在版本馬上通過的話，施行後馬上原地退休，一樣113年退休，一線三星四階的，他的月退俸馬上變成6萬8,952，比現制多了六千多，按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到7,700塊錢，這樣如果是40年的年資，官階不變，月退變多少？變成6萬5,226，通過新法修正以後，馬上飆到8萬0,599塊，這個產生一個什麼樣的現象？次長，這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎？退休的人和現職的人一樣了。"],["張次長秋元：對，就是這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：會有這種狀況，所以我請教張署長，因為這和你們最有關係，你也會退休，你們對於這個修法的態度是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：我覺得就是對於退休人員是要去照顧，但要合理的照顧，現在所得替代率增高，如果比照國軍是90%和95%，未來在所得替代率的部分是不是有討論的空間，我們會跟相關機關積極做一個協調處理，就是說不要高到90%或95%，看看有沒有這一個機制，在國家財政的這個機制裡面如果對退休人員是最好的照顧，那我們也是願意跟主管機關一起協調，把這些相關的數據做很完整的去溝通和協調來處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我倒覺得你們最主要還是要針對現在提出的版本，退撫基金從113年開始要增加多少支出，到118年最高額到底是多少，把這些數據拿出來以後，衝擊大家才算得出來。還有很多危險的、相同的你都還沒有放進去，比如說，如果到113年，像你們所講的，初步瞭解是53億，一路到118年78億，這還沒有把消防和海巡加進來。那我要問的就是說，現在如果在警察人事條例裡面，在野黨特別去修正所得替代率的話，到最後特別法會優於普通法，你會產生一個很大的問題，你看修正的第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款，請次長特別注意，可怕的是它留下了一個彩蛋和地雷，如果按照整個條文到最後他會跟你講說第五款說要比照在職的同等級人員，那我的退休待遇都是比照軍職的話，那就可怕了，次長。"],["張次長秋元：財務衝擊會很大。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你感覺這樣衝擊大嗎？"],["張次長秋元：剛剛我們已經講了，今天提出來的是初估的預算，我們會再做精算。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我在這個地方奉勸在野黨的朋友，不要以為拿到多數以後，所謂世代正義全部都把它丟到旁邊去了，這個國家是大家一起的，如果去把它做一個試算，單單把一個職別的所得替代率做這樣的提高的話，我相信民眾，尤其是現職的警察同仁都未必會接受，就像我剛剛講的，單獨去提高，繳費的部分又維持不變，這開什麼玩笑？我建議署長，你們那邊衝擊多少的部分、到何時差不多要多支出多少，然後每一個官階的部分調升的到底是有多少，所得替代率變成多少，這個資料應該很完整的在委員會裡面……"],["張署長榮興：我們再做細算，再做精算。"],["莊委員瑞雄：再做細算，讓大家可以做一個理性的討論，我相信大家都要面對社會、面對整個輿論，要理性的做一個討論，不然光這樣一個方式的話，我相信大家還沒有辦法體認到整個衝擊會有多大，好不好？謝謝。"],["張次長秋元：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員。請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.172218750000003,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.41221875,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.99409375,"end":21.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.85471875,"end":24.094718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.250968750000002,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.37721875,"end":26.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.149093750000002,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.094093750000003,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.12346875,"end":30.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.300343750000003,"end":35.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.99159375,"end":39.400343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.95721875,"end":41.610968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.96534375,"end":44.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.32784375,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.03596875,"end":50.790968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.976593750000006,"end":52.579718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.782218750000006,"end":54.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.84096875,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.97596875,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.81221875,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.74034375000001,"end":79.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.81596875000001,"end":87.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.59534375000001,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.45096875,"end":96.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.29846875000001,"end":98.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.32346875,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.41971875,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.87346875,"end":126.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.57221875,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.06846875000002,"end":178.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.23096875000002,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.78784375,"end":200.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.45534375000003,"end":200.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.77596875,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.97409375,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.10909375,"end":219.84471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.84471875000003,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.87846875000002,"end":220.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.97534375,"end":221.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.00909375,"end":227.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.55221875,"end":247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.26659375000003,"end":251.43471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.00846875000002,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.44284375,"end":254.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.69159375,"end":261.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.72846875,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.31471875,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.31034375,"end":285.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.75846875,"end":292.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.28471875,"end":294.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.68534375,"end":299.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.95034375,"end":300.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.65471875000003,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.01284375,"end":307.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.66221875,"end":307.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.05034375,"end":312.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.16846875000005,"end":308.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.45471875000004,"end":315.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.86346875000004,"end":318.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.98534375,"end":321.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.49534375,"end":372.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.44534375,"end":401.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.28471875,"end":401.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.68971875000005,"end":421.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.33221875000004,"end":423.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.71159375,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.43909375000004,"end":439.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.55284375,"end":441.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.10534375000003,"end":443.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.860343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市長"},{"start":201.906,"end":202.506,"text":"這我們希望維持一個世代的穩定"},{"start":221.417,"end":238.684,"text":"所以說啊你說我們當初這樣的一個改革讓這筆基金可以至少多活一個世代我以年資35年一線三星警政四階當例子啦113年現在退休的位啦按照限制的所得替代率67.5剛你說67.5嘛那它的月退縫是62897那如果到118年退休所得替代率60的話"},{"start":247.507,"end":249.508,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":269.235,"end":281.827,"text":"那他的月退金就馬上變成六萬八千九百五十二,比限制多的這六千多,按照階級最高一個月還可以差別到七千七百塊錢,這樣四十年的秘書關接不變。"},{"start":287.572,"end":299.455,"text":"六萬五千兩百二十六通過了新法修正以後,馬上飆到八萬零五百九十九塊。這個產生一個什麼樣的現象?就是說,處長,這個會變成什麼現象你知道嗎?退休的人,到現在限職的又怎麼樣了?"},{"start":308.158,"end":321.335,"text":"對,就是這樣。會有不同狀況,所以我請教啦,我要請教我們署長署長,署長我請教你就是說,因為這個跟你們最有關係啦,連你也會退休啊,所以你們到底對於這個修法的態度是什麼?"},{"start":322.523,"end":345.882,"text":"我覺得就是說對於照顧退休的也是要去照顧但是要合理啦要合理的一個照顧那現在的這個所得替代率現在增高就是如果比較國際是90%那未來就是說在這個所得替代率的部分是不是能夠有這些討論的空間那我們會跟相關的這個機關"},{"start":346.963,"end":353.046,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":372.495,"end":394.9,"text":"其實我倒覺得啦你們最主要還是要把說針對現在提出的版本你退伍基金從113年開始你要增加多少支出到118年最高額到底是多少這課開出來之後衝擊大家才算得出來啦還有很多危險的相同的你都還沒放進去的你像比如說你都如果說到113年你像你們所講的初步了解是53億一路到118年78億這還沒有把消防跟海巡加進來喔對"},{"start":401.741,"end":422.955,"text":"那我要問的就是說你像比如說你現在如果在警察人事條例裡面你們特別去這個在野黨特別去修正所得替代率的話那你到最後你特別法會優於普通法你會產生一個很大的問題喔你看他修正的這個第一項第四款所得替代率裡面還有一個第五款喔我請次長你們特別去注意喔"},{"start":423.766,"end":425.006,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":446.446,"end":450.388,"text":"三十五條條文修正三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法律事條例修正三草案．委員"},{"start":472.858,"end":474.819,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":490.749,"end":493.99,"text":"對弊會接受。」這個像我剛剛講的,你單獨去提高,那你繳費的部分又維持不變,這開什麼玩笑啊?但是我建議啊,那個署長您那邊衝擊多少的部分,到時候"},{"start":507.148,"end":520.9,"text":"差不多多支出多少然後每一個關節的部分他調升的到底是有多少然後左右替代率然後變多少應該這個資料應該很完整的在委員會裡面再做細算大家這樣可以來做一個理性的討論我相信"},{"start":526.345,"end":526.385,"text":"二）委員"}]}},{"id":"154003","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154003","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba08021ae0ced6dceaec65fab1c545da5d01d141634ad16f55fdcbf91617bdae11f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:19:14 - 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沒有改變嘛"},{"start":369.898,"end":388.112,"text":"對阿沒有改變嘛只是請你市政府要把散化站這個部分剔除掉然後趕快國發會核定之後那我們就可以核定整個預算嘛是不是這個樣子對嘛就是這樣結果昨天全部地方炸鍋說地方政府跟中央政府在騙人"},{"start":389.522,"end":416.272,"text":"所以要小心喔!你要非常小心我今天利用這個機會實施讓你們澄清否則大家認為地方政府跟中央政府在騙人啊再來我待會會送一個計畫書這個澄清書給我們這個部長就是我跟你講的新營區東山路平交道南北兩側平面道路請改善拓寬為左右各三線車道我讓大家看一下這個還有我們國軍的遺訪喔"},{"start":419.77,"end":420.19,"text":"﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃"},{"start":449.467,"end":473.581,"text":"國道1的閘道現在的預算說真的是6.54億可是目前還在做一些相關的規劃那這個部分我們也要拜託我們的部長要盡快來做核定還有就是我們的新東里新東立體多目標停車場的部分3億6600萬我們也希望一定部長這個部分都不能再推"},{"start":474.301,"end":480.591,"text":"推辭也不能有任何的所謂的一個delay的動作這個再拜託謝謝謝謝陳亭惠委員"}]}},{"id":"154001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154001","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba099b1024930c2962b5c95aab381092a401d141634ad16f55f43ec86b666c9fb855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"12:05:14 - 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委員好本席也非常感謝你對我們臺東的道路安全的一個設置213座的一個候車亭包含遮影棚的部分對臺東的觀光也好或者是在一般停車休息都有一個"},{"start":36.847,"end":37.108,"text":"主席"},{"start":48.188,"end":77.318,"text":"因為這是臺東鄉親特別有一個陳情的一個立場臺11縣省道由臺東縣的富岡至督蘭之間的道路路段由於道路的狹窄每逢的例假日這車輛非常的人潮非常的多而且湧入"},{"start":79.266,"end":102.34,"text":"造成這個全線的交通幾乎癱瘓幾乎癱瘓所以常常在例假日的時候就會常常就會有可能會排成一條龍而且就為了行方便的交通所以這個就是造成那個地方來這個交通的不便"},{"start":103.56,"end":127.74,"text":"所以本席在這個地方建議交通部在臺東富岡之都蘭灣規劃新建一座跨海大橋來徹底改善交通擁塞的問題以帶動地方觀光進而促進地方繁榮請教一下部長你是否會認同這個建議來做一個研究"},{"start":129.461,"end":157.459,"text":"各位委員報告我們確實臺東的都攬可以說是觀光的重鎮那也是很多很多文人雅士或是藝術家去那邊定居的一個地方所以這個地方越來越有相關的這個發展也越來越宜居那有關交通擁塞的部分我們是不是再請公路局再做一個評估看看怎麼樣來解決輕快好不好那一個月內給我一個"},{"start":159.54,"end":163.222,"text":"其實不用評估,你們可以實際去參考、勘查"},{"start":185.692,"end":196.231,"text":"那這個部分是不是一個月內報告出來之後我們再進行看查好不好那你把這個報告給我那另外謝謝部長那我請教一下觀光署署長"},{"start":207.226,"end":217.992,"text":"剛剛我們宜蘭的委員特別提出有關於臺東觀光捕捉政策臺東花蓮還有包含宜蘭"},{"start":219.645,"end":241.013,"text":"記得我們長年以來每次地震受害者就是有兩邊第一個就是台東因為他是有連帶關係地形的地貌整個的一個地殼跟台東絕對是有關聯性那進而跟宜蘭也有關係但是"},{"start":243.394,"end":255.928,"text":"直接衝擊到的是台東地區所以應該這個相關的補助政策上次我特別跟你提過但是我剛剛聽到部長說在8月1號"},{"start":259.391,"end":286.439,"text":"這個對台東來講是會有大小眼的一個立場我上次也跟你報告過你說6月1號可以同步進行可是問題之後你都沒有跟我回應了沒有怎麼得到的消息是8月1號才開始那你本來有回答就是同步花蓮台東同步進行應該這樣的話是對台東來講也是一個尊重"},{"start":287.139,"end":299.624,"text":"可是你現在要8月1號是大小眼所以那邊為什麼臺東那邊的鄉親這些這些觀光旅遊的這些產業都提出來抗議了你說"},{"start":300.962,"end":326.234,"text":"是跟委員報告一下我們是6月開始交通的優惠然後7月的話是團體的優惠然後8月的話可是剛剛我聽到部長說6月1號是花蓮可是我們應該你上次回答我的事6月1號是花蓮才是同步進行的不是嗎你上次回答我是不是這樣整個委員的陣型是6月是分階段開始"},{"start":327.796,"end":328.256,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154000","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba021fb33c78f9d44045c95aab381092a401d141634ad16f55fec1a1595b71728d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 有請我們李部長請部長"},{"start":6.943,"end":32.822,"text":"部長午安委員好部長針對這個0403花蓮強震之後的振興方案在6月1號已經開始啟動了那在6月7號的時候我在總諮詢的部分也有曾經跟部長您提到針對這個花蓮強震之後我們所啟動的振興方案是否可以納入宜蘭縣的部分"},{"start":33.542,"end":58.34,"text":"那當時部長您是說我們後續再來評估看看這個相關的住房率那經過這個端午連假之後我們看到實質的這個住房率平均大概是在4成左右那當單日的部分也有未達2成那所以目前看起來還有一個隱憂就是暑假的部分我們目前的訂房率還是不到2成"},{"start":59.441,"end":74.563,"text":"那所以我想說是不是我們可以針對這個問題重新來啟動相關的檢討調整可以比照台東的這個補助方案讓宜蘭縣也可以在振興方案裡面稍微獲得一點紓緩"},{"start":75.805,"end":99.141,"text":"那剛剛在這個部長您這個打選的這個過程中我有聽到說可能對屏東也會納入這個後續的這個補助方案那我還是強調宜蘭縣跟這個花蓮台東是這個共同區域的一個這個觀光囊帶希望說能夠對於宜蘭縣要重視部長您的看法"},{"start":100.288,"end":107.876,"text":"跟委員報告,委員對宜蘭的關心,我們也是持續關注宜蘭還有各地觀光的狀況這次端午連假,宜蘭大概45%住房率,花蓮只有16%"},{"start":120.831,"end":121.592,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":142.337,"end":165.568,"text":"臺東因為他狀況沒有沒有像花蓮那麼樣斷崖式的所以他是8月1號開始另外因為7月臺東也有一個熱氣球節等等所以我們目前規劃是8月1號才開始在臺東那宜蘭的部分我們想說6月7月因為接著有同萬節等等的這個節日那我們來看"},{"start":167.57,"end":196.133,"text":"這6月7月這兩個月的住房率是不是有因為暑假或是因為同案節等等那相關的一些活動我們也會來協助那看看有沒有回升那大概在6、7月的時候我們做一個滾動式的檢討那麼看是不是要並同這個跟台東一起做處理那但是在這個之前我們有跟請觀光署這邊來協助就是像臺灣好行或者是關巴這個部分就比較等於宜花東是一致的"},{"start":196.713,"end":199.597,"text":"有優惠的措施鼓勵觀光客來進來"},{"start":202.073,"end":227.531,"text":"好這短期內就是針對我們的這個臺灣好行臺灣PASS然後還有那個關巴的部分兩則我們是可以先交通部這邊就是同意宜蘭縣先納入一致跟花蓮台東可以一起享用那我還是拜託這個部長針對目前看起來因為最近有一個數據在這個媒體上跑出來就是"},{"start":228.211,"end":236.44,"text":"花蓮我們在這個政後的這個振興方案補助可能會超過8億以上那台東的部分我們現在概括可能是2億"},{"start":237.742,"end":261.105,"text":"那對於宜蘭縣我們就是針對活動類可能就是補助500萬所以這個落差這個數據上的落差是非常大非常明顯我希望說因為我們現在也不是強求說一定要補助到什麼程度我們希望的是能夠比照台東的補助方式讓宜蘭花蓮台東在推動觀光上能夠是一致性的"},{"start":262.146,"end":283.332,"text":"部長可以嗎?我了解委員的期待那是不是我們來看這兩個月的住房那跟我們最近所推的措施是不是可以把宜蘭這邊能夠把它提升起來好,因為宜蘭縣目前所有的觀光旅宿業只能用這個四個字形容叫旺川秋水麥酒金金人最中"},{"start":284.392,"end":307.367,"text":"就看著這個花蓮台東在這個同一個狼帶上他們的補助案都已經很明確了可是宜蘭縣還在不接受所以我還是拜託部長跟我們的署長針對這個部分應該能夠讓我們宜蘭縣所有的觀光旅宿業更有信心一點所以再拜託部長那另外還有一個就是我們昨天這個6月12號這個"},{"start":310.709,"end":335.531,"text":"鐵路高架的部分環境影響評估已經順利通過了那我也希望說後續我相信我們交通部這邊應該都有一個比較完整的規劃期程那後續的這個期程一定要掌握好把這個相關的期程接續上讓這個工程可以順利早日的這個來動工也可以及早來完工所以部長這部分可以簡單回答一下嗎"},{"start":335.831,"end":361.63,"text":"我們後續會請鐵道局因為環評很不容易通過那現在這個是一個喜事那我們期待這個後面的流程能夠掌握在我們手上就加快的來包括設計包括用地取得等等對 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因為看起來112年拿到建造現在建造到目前為止沒拿到還好剛通過了剛剛講一些審議上個禮拜剛好通過了我們希望他最後的一個不管建造建造整個一個審查的過程中我覺得鐵道局也要去"},{"start":243.356,"end":243.476,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":266.32,"end":291.698,"text":"陶淵高鐵的兩公頃的廣場那廣場是公設的然後也把它拋出去了所以我們當時很擔心啊我的天啊廣場蓋一蓋不見怎麼辦因為它有很多的功能嘛所以當然協調結果我要拜託部長在有機會能夠接上來第一個要保留兩公頃的廣場而且是靠近高鐵站的當時答應"},{"start":292.478,"end":317.037,"text":"第二因為所有的鐵路的廣場甚至高鐵的廣場都會在N年之後當停車不夠的時候會下挖可是你一次招標出去了那我們就希望能夠這一次在國泰人壽一併考慮到未來我們的廣場這個部分當時也答應了第三個直接建置地下連通道到高鐵站"},{"start":318.379,"end":328.913,"text":"第4個要增加遊覽車停車空間像遊覽車都沒地方停所以這四個需求要確認一定要做到好不好幫忙督導一下那第二個"},{"start":330.745,"end":347.839,"text":"請問一下這個部長這你知道嗎我看到你的報告有寫了齁我們現在集結集結最後一里路事實上兩里了齁一個是要通到我們中壢車站還差一站還差一站但我要謝謝交通部在去年的"},{"start":348.679,"end":374.773,"text":"7月31號終於向前推進一站已經進入我們市區了啦那但是跟中壢車站能連接到是非常有具體意義的因為直接跟火車就串接了中南部一些小站的不做高鐵的他也可以透過我們中壢車站直接串接到機場所以他是非常非常有功能的那請問一下現在進度現在確定要延幾年呢"},{"start":375.774,"end":391.954,"text":"目前還是以原定計畫117年作為通車目標這裡面有一個關鍵是在逃避計畫的CJ17標下面要把集結通過中壢車站這個位置的結構體一併做出來好你現在因為我們濾捷延伸線"},{"start":393.215,"end":408.626,"text":"大月台的方案月台延伸的一個方案我聽說會造成延誤12個月因為報告有寫但是我是覺得值得因為你讓一條捷運進不了中壢車站是一個很奇怪的事所以我們希望你現在還是110預計117年能夠讓機捷通到中壢車站現在目標是這樣沒有變"},{"start":415.85,"end":433.744,"text":"117是原來的計畫,剛剛大月台發案延誤12個月的部分,我想我們靠近一點再來做檢討,就目前我們仍然以117作為目標就117或者118,我希望這個目標能夠確認那再來是另外一個A14,就是因為我們現在T3預計在115年年底,預計會完工"},{"start":438.147,"end":449.626,"text":"現在到底發生什麼事啊A14站體現在都是機長公司在做了那為什麼行政院工程會的特別報告說這個部長你知道他那邊有沒有發生什麼問題啊"},{"start":451.358,"end":478.8,"text":"A14要做一個車站跟我們的T3三航廈有發生什麼問題嗎你知道嗎是不是由機場公司來做說明這問題是在我們在施工的過程當中因為有一些結構它是兩邊要有一個銜接點那這些銜接點它在施工縫的處理上面在前一陣子的時間因為雨量比較大所以有一些水從那邊滲下去不過這些問題現在到6月底都可以完全解決了"},{"start":479.802,"end":496.14,"text":"確定齁因為我看行政院公共工程委員會的第一次的業務報告裡面就寫的說因為我們A14站結構工程是你們在做嘛然後跟T3航廈他施工順序規劃不當造成進度落後"},{"start":497.853,"end":513.876,"text":"是這樣嗎 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過去很長的時間在行政院擔任秘書長對於中部地區的相關的交通建設跟中部地區海空的觀光先代表臺中市民謝謝過去的李秘書長"},{"start":33.965,"end":34.065,"text":"蔡其昌議員"},{"start":65.948,"end":67.71,"text":"時間有限,所以我今天只就"},{"start":69.837,"end":92.015,"text":"臺中港跟清泉崗國際機場這個臺中對外的海空的門戶來救教部長一些問題首先就臺中港的部分我想過去我們本席還沒當副院長在交通委員會我就一直在提到港務公司本席一直長期在建立應該除了對於碼頭的經營管理這個海運的運輸的專業之外"},{"start":96.158,"end":116.254,"text":"其實交通部這是十年前的議題十年前本席就講未來休閒娛樂會是國家很重要發展的重點所以本席在十幾年前我就建議同樣的地方我就建議港務公司應該要成立休閒事業部門"},{"start":118.297,"end":144.469,"text":"這個可以增加港務公司的營收所以10年前本席預測這個趨勢大概經過8年副院長沒有來這裡質詢現在再回來這裡質詢我還是講同樣的話你看本席預測的趨勢實在是越來越明顯過去我們為台中港爭取了這個山井凹類到台中港來投資我想部長你應該知道山井凹類這些年來從營運開始一起非常成功人滿為患"},{"start":146.511,"end":166.268,"text":"馬上積極發展二期到現在到假日的時候連停車位都一味難求他也同時因為山井奧烈的投資帶動臺中港地區整體的這種所謂新的公寓大樓不斷的興建人口不斷的移入所以這是第一鐵過去我們認為發展臺中港的第一鐵要"},{"start":167.549,"end":174.523,"text":"那接下來我們會希望說臺中港務公司所擁有的可以跟休閒事業相關的包括遊輪碼頭、遊艇碼頭"},{"start":178.08,"end":207.379,"text":"那本席只是覺得很可惜從疫後我們做了一個表格你看從疫後這個我們郵輪以台中港停靠的這個數量你可以看到過去我們曾一度有38艘次到最高74然後到了這個疫後從2020年開始一直到這個今年為止你看總共才只有兩艘郵輪的停靠所以這個可以說是一個雪崩式的下滑"},{"start":209.158,"end":226.348,"text":"那我們的遊艇碼頭這個最近已經發包出去但是部長這個也落後安平港其實已經落後相當大的一段距離了所以本席過去一直在推動除了山井澳類之外"},{"start":227.108,"end":245.73,"text":"我們包括臺中港的這個郵輪無論是停靠或作為母港也就是說無論是外國觀光客來到藉由臺中港停靠然後可以下船玩一天或者中部地區很多人想要從臺中港搭郵輪出國去旅遊"},{"start":247.512,"end":257.85,"text":"那現在我們只能選高雄或者選擇基隆其實對中部地區龐大的這種消費力量來講其實這個是非常不方便的其實機場也是不過待會我們再來談機場"},{"start":259.485,"end":287.487,"text":"那本席想請教部長對於像郵輪阿這個我也跟港澳公司提過說希望能夠趕快在今年因為郵輪一定要時間嘛今年不做明年又沒機會所以本席一直在建議希望可不可以對郵輪的爭取上面在今年有所動作而明年我們就可以順利看到從台中港出發的郵輪或者停靠台中港的郵輪來部長你請回答"},{"start":288.972,"end":316.536,"text":"跟委員報告我想我先報告遊艇的部分遊艇部分目前已經發包給專業的遊艇公司來做相關類似BOT的方式那預計已經在3月7號交地那115年可以來第一期可以營運那所以我想這時臺中港就有一個遊艇港專用港那我想據我了解目前這個業者準備把這個地方當成是全國遊艇的中心"},{"start":317.116,"end":317.616,"text":"本席一直在講今年你們一定要去談"},{"start":348.538,"end":363.919,"text":"今年的話我們很努力找相關的單位大家來但是今年還沒有成果但是在明年的1月3號我們有一個航次的預報就是日本級的海洋護士郵輪要來台中"},{"start":364.64,"end":377.777,"text":"那我們會做好相關的配套弄好那希望能夠這個明年第一次的話我們打響台中的他是來停靠嘛對不對那明年從台中港出發的郵輪有沒有機會"},{"start":379.447,"end":403.15,"text":"目前還沒有勒但是我們是有找那個臺中的有一些盤石會類似這種的我們希望就是以包場的方式總經理很認真他都有定期跟我回報精緻的旅遊直接到日本去現在還在努力對有都跟我回報他很用心那我希望部長這個加點勁我相信有機會啦"},{"start":404.051,"end":426.139,"text":"因為中部地區有龐大的消費力量嘛遊輪公司要不要來除了我們的積極度讓他展現出台中中部地區很多人願意去搭這個遊輪那他有錢賺他為什麼不來呢可是我們這個港務公司或者交通部的態度要很明確當你們跟遊輪公司表達這樣的信心跟立場的時候我相信他們會"},{"start":427.299,"end":428.56,"text":"最後我想我再請教一下那個因為時間已經到了"},{"start":446.363,"end":470.278,"text":"那個機場我們過去一直在爭取這個新的航線跟航點嘛那我先謝謝交通部我們爭取這今年飛了這個新宇就飛了澳門跟越南的縣港同時呢這個包機飛日本的高松那我們目前啊這這這些年的努力以後我們努力現在目前有13條航線嘛7條是定期6條是不定期"},{"start":472.299,"end":487.612,"text":"那我想請問本席因為一直在追加嘛我覺得這個還不夠民眾希望從台中飛的這個期盼實在是很高所以呢本席想請教那下半年我們還有沒有新的航線或航點的可能"},{"start":490.694,"end":512.615,"text":"我請局長報告報告委員其實航點的恢復確實我們也是很積極的請航空公司可以來再增加那以今年來講今年的夏季班表大概每週是60班那去年的夏季班表大概是30班那新增航點的部分我們在這個臺中機場的部分就是"},{"start":513.155,"end":513.675,"text":"對這個是定期還不定期"},{"start":530.185,"end":531.706,"text":"還有沒有你們預期但是現在還不能公佈的"},{"start":554.758,"end":583.337,"text":"我們還一直在請航空公司包含國籍或外籍再來爭取我們各個包含高雄也一樣幾個機場我們都會要求你講台中就好因為主席他自己會問他高雄就是我們這個部分我們會再持續努力就是航空公司因為其實面臨的還是機組員機隊其實國外的航空公司跟國內都一樣那有一些日本的點還是受限於當地的地勤的量能"},{"start":583.777,"end":598.824,"text":"好那我想時間的關係本席會持續來要求這兩個對中部地區來講這是門戶啦空港跟海港是我們的門戶不管是旅客進來我們那個地方消費或者服務中部地區的民眾方便"},{"start":599.804,"end":628.049,"text":"出國洽工或者旅行其實這個都是很重要的所以本席希望部長持續中部地區過去我們合作包括完成那麼多事情那現在我們也希望對臺中港跟包括本席提到那個新的港務大樓的興建然後包括清泉崗這個航線航點的增加本席都會持續關注那也謝謝局長持續我們保持聯絡該克服的問題我們一起來把它克服好謝謝"},{"start":629.855,"end":630.52,"text":"謝謝﹖"}]}},{"id":"153996","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153996","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0e01b02134762a7c55c95aab381092a401d141634ad16f55f286ec5ce099167b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:21:33 - 11:30:05","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:21:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:30:05+08:00","duration":512,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":568,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時21分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["李部長孟諺：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝部長。部長，我們現在TPASS推動得還不錯嘛？"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以部長有說，考慮年底要推出新的TPASS方案。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["許委員智傑：那TPASS，事實上我們先給交通部鼓勵啦！從111年交通部提出通勤月票的概念，然後在111年1月14日，正好那時候交通委員會到鳳山考察，我要求當時的部長能夠做高雄的TPASS，當時他也有答應。一直到現在，事實上我們看它的成果的確還不錯，所以TPASS這個部分交通部打算推出新的方案，那我是想再提供一個新的概念，因為TPASS是以通勤為主，對不對？"],["李部長孟諺：是，鼓勵大家通勤。"],["許委員智傑：但是觀光是不是應該一併考量？"],["李部長孟諺：對，所以這一次年底打算推一個新型態的TPASS，就有考慮到觀光客。"],["許委員智傑：有跟觀光做連結？"],["李部長孟諺：有，譬如說來觀光的人，他也許可以買1週或是10日票，10日的TPASS。"],["周署長永暉：那個叫Taiwan PASS。"],["許委員智傑：對，就是台灣好玩卡。"],["周署長永暉：對，Taiwan PASS的話，台灣好玩卡已經轉型了，希望能夠從城市卡變成類似國旅卡。"],["許委員智傑：整個臺灣。"],["周署長永暉：對。"],["許委員智傑：所以變成Taiwan PASS。"],["周署長永暉：那TPASS的話，它算是都會的一個transit的pass，所以不大一樣。"],["許委員智傑：所以你這個要趕快跟部長報告，我先弄一個影片給部長跟署長看一下，你可以看他們的好玩卡。","（播放影片）"],["許委員智傑：你看，都有周遊券。","（播放影片）"],["許委員智傑：好，部長有沒有買過周遊券？沒有？"],["李部長孟諺：我看這個影片很想去。"],["許委員智傑：因為你都在工作啦！所以我們的官員很多都是太忙於工作，但是不知道怎麼去玩。現在自由行的，很多人到處玩都去買周遊券，所以特地讓部長跟署長看一下日本大阪是怎麼推周遊券的。","我們來看現在的成績，你可以看到TPASS的銷售量在113年5月，1個月就有67萬張。北北基好玩卡，112年最高是79萬，這是1年，不是1個月，剛剛TPASS是1個月六十幾萬，這個是1年80萬。高雄好玩卡，事實上105年最高是3.5萬套，112年到7月差不多才9,000套，所以那個數目字差很多，也就是說，我們在推好玩卡的時候，希望觀光署可以要求，可以重視。","你可以看到，我前年曾經質詢過好玩卡官網，臺中好玩卡官網結果連到中國賭博網站，當時雖然已經有改善，但是你現在看到我們高雄好玩卡，你把它點進去以後發現裡面還是一片空白，所以也就是說，交通部跟觀光署在注重好玩卡的部分，重視度不夠。","我要特別提醒，你看剛剛日本大阪的周遊券，大阪兩天周遊券可以到47處免費景點，他們兩天就是930元，很便宜，所以很多人去都值回票價。我只要買個來回機票，花1萬元左右，我在那邊住宿一個晚上最多也不過2,000元，我在那邊再花兩天930元可以玩遍所有的景點，你看這個是不是比較有吸引力，可以吸引外國觀光客去？臺灣應該是用這樣子的角度，就是好玩嘛！因為我們都注重經濟繁榮，觀光其實有一個概念叫做好玩，play啦！要讓人家怎麼去玩，來高雄怎麼玩，來臺北怎麼玩，來臺灣怎麼玩，所以剛剛署長也提到要做Taiwan PASS，是有結合觀光景點嘛！對不對？"],["周署長永暉：對，我們跟好行的景點做串接，但是跟委員報告，有些還是要市政府來幫忙。"],["許委員智傑：當然、當然。"],["周署長永暉：對，所以北北基那個……"],["許委員智傑：我跟你們簡單報告一下，像日本這個周遊券，現在全世界推最好的是大阪，你看韓國首爾也是，有75處景點。高雄現在是兩天21處，臺北是兩天29處，看起來是還可以，像最近市政府也在推MeNGo 990，事實上都值回票價，但是就是少了宣傳，所以要讓國人知道，要讓世界的人知道來這邊是怎麼樣玩。像我剛剛提供的影片，不只部長看了滿想去，我看了也滿想去，就是說現在年輕人在玩什麼，有時候我們要降低自己的年齡，用年輕人的角度怎麼玩，這才是重要的。","部長現在宣示要擬定新的TPASS，還有剛才署長提到的Taiwan PASS，如何跟各縣市政府或是各縣市重要的景點來連結成一個好玩的周遊卡，其實這裡還有很多，包括網紅在宣傳，這是另外一個宣傳的方式，所以希望交通部針對台灣好玩卡，針對各縣市的好玩卡，怎麼樣做整合，怎麼樣結合交通跟景點，然後讓國人自己在國內旅遊也好，讓世界的人到臺灣來觀光旅遊也好，這都是一個很好的賣點。","觀光局有做一個廣告去宣傳臺灣是還不錯，但是如果把好玩卡放進去那個廣告裡面，你去了知道要玩什麼，又好玩又便宜又划得來，他就會想來，這個部分是不是可以請部長跟署長好好規劃一下？"],["李部長孟諺：是，謝謝委員的提醒，這個我們會來努力。"],["許委員智傑：OK，希望能夠看到好的成績，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員。","現在請蔡其昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-16","speakers":["李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","葉元之","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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特地讓部長跟署長看一下人家日本大阪是怎麼推周遊間的我們可以看現在我們的成績啦你可以看到那個TPAS的銷售量在113年5月一個月就有67萬張那北北機好玩卡112年最高是79萬一年一年 不是一個月那這是 剛剛TPAS是一個月60幾萬這個是一年80萬"},{"start":266.085,"end":294.704,"text":"高雄好玩卡事實上105年最高是3.5今年到7月為今年112年7月那個時候差不多才9000套所以那個數目字差很多那也就是說我們在推這個好玩卡的時候希望公安署可以要求可以重視你可以看到我去年前年曾經質詢過就是好玩卡官網臺中好玩卡官網結果連到中國賭博網站"},{"start":297.005,"end":321.831,"text":"當時事業已經有改善但是你現在看到我們高雄好玩卡你馬上點進去這個點進去以後發現裡面還是一片空白所以也就是說在我們整個交通部跟公共事務在注重這個好玩卡的部分重視度不夠那我要特別提醒就是說這個周遊卡你看剛日本大阪的時候我們看大阪那一張"},{"start":323.547,"end":349.357,"text":"大阪兩天週遊券可以到47處免費景點他們兩天就是930塊很便宜所以很多人去都只會票價我只要買個來回機票花1萬塊左右我那邊住宿一個晚上也不過最多2000塊那我在那邊再花兩天930塊可以玩遍所有的景點這個你看是不是比較有吸引力可以吸引外國國安可以去"},{"start":350.834,"end":374.309,"text":"那台灣應該是用這樣子的角度就是好玩嘛因為我們都注重經濟繁榮那觀光其實有個概念叫做好玩play啦要讓人家怎麼去玩那來高雄怎麼玩來台北怎麼玩來台灣怎麼玩所以現在剛剛署長也提到說要做這個台灣pass是有結合觀光景點嘛對不對"},{"start":376.889,"end":395.883,"text":"我們跟好行的景點做串接是但是剛剛委員報告一下就是必須還是有些要市政府來幫忙當然當然對所以北北京那個我跟你們簡單報告一下像日本週圓圈這個是現在全世界推最好的是大阪"},{"start":396.864,"end":416.897,"text":"那你看韓國首爾人家也是你看75處的景點那高雄現在兩天21處臺北兩天29處看起來是還可以但是就是說像最近那個市政府也推那個Mango 990啦事實上都值回票價但是就是少了宣傳"},{"start":418.736,"end":444.001,"text":"要讓國人知道要讓世界人知道來這邊是怎麼樣玩所以我剛提供那個影片其實我看了自己也不只部長看了蠻想去我看了也蠻想去這個就是說現在年輕人在玩什麼有時候我們要降低自己的年齡用年輕人的角度怎麼玩這才是重要的所以我是希望說我們現在再回到第一章就是說"},{"start":444.801,"end":472.988,"text":"那個部長現在宣誓要擬定新的TPAS那跟剛才署長提到的台灣PASS然後跟各縣市政府或者是各縣市的重要的景點如果把它連結成一個好玩的周遊卡那讓然後你看其實這裡還有很多包括網紅在宣傳這個都是另外一個宣傳的方式所以希望說交通部就針對台灣好玩卡"},{"start":474.795,"end":502.814,"text":"針對各縣市的好玩卡那怎麼樣做整合怎麼樣結合交通跟景點然後讓國人自己在國內旅遊也好讓世界人到台灣來觀光旅遊也好這都是一個很好的賣點觀光局有做一個廣告是宣傳台灣是還不錯但是呢如果把這個好玩卡放進去那個廣告裡面你去知道要玩什麼又好玩又便宜又划得來他就會想來是不是這個部分可以請那個部長跟署長好好的規劃一下是"},{"start":504.316,"end":505.278,"text":"希望能夠看到好的成績"}]}},{"id":"153995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0a20f0602e58c3d365c95aab381092a401d141634ad16f55ff82bc5d892225b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:12:09 - 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117.105,"end":138.92,"text":"那交通部會如何來解決?這個6月11號當天我看到這個新聞就是說在環評他有先請應該不叫推薦他是叫補充資料那我有親自打給這個環境部的主持的這個處長那麼他表示這個大概都是一般性的問題"},{"start":139.901,"end":160.234,"text":"所以只要再補充文件應該就可以來但是以媒體看起來這個我們的防衛講得很嚴重說得很嚴重就是說這是普通大概都不會第一次就過一定會需要再補件補說明另外他特別有提醒就是在靠近那個"},{"start":161.455,"end":176.721,"text":"高雄跟屏東交界處有一些被徵收可能將來路線經過被徵收的民眾他有一些陳情的意見那這些陳情意見也在補件的時候要做適當的處理那我是不是請局長也再跟您報告比較詳細的部分"},{"start":178.261,"end":194.599,"text":"局長稍等一下我先提出另外一個質疑就是因為我們的環委有提到說高屏22塊跟高鐵南延屏東的路線幾乎平行那這樣子的一個影響會不會涉及到後續我們這個高鐵路線的進行這部分是一併來做說明"},{"start":198.293,"end":225.552,"text":"這個部分我的了解是這樣就是說因為兩個共構路廊就前段前段有一段是共構路廊那所以他的施工的範圍會佔用這個平面道路稍微比較大一點那在環評的時候委員有提出說會不會對當地的平面道路的交通會不會產生影響那希望主辦單位再補充一些這個這個詳細的資料那讓委員在下次審的時候可以"},{"start":226.432,"end":234.819,"text":"高屏二塊在這個6月11號是這個環境部專案小組第一次的一個審查會那剛剛所提到的像比如說這一個飲用水還有這個取水的這個部分其實在當初路線的時候其實已經有做相關的一個迴避了"},{"start":252.774,"end":271.343,"text":"那另外就是說因為跟高鐵的這個延伸確實是只有就是說前面有一小段共構不過我們在整個這個高屏二塊在這個環屏的這個部分其實還是先走我們相關的程序也都有向委員說明就是說比如對地方交通的一個衝擊跟交違的一個處理"},{"start":273.224,"end":299.117,"text":"這個要拜託部長跟局長因為這個對我們屏東的未來的建設非常的重要我們希望能夠加快速度那就麻煩部長跟局長這邊就費心我們也很期待說這一條快速道路能夠在114年的1月相關的計畫環評還有相關計畫核定那開始進行設計114年就是明年好謝謝那另外針對那個觀光部分我們再請一下周處長"},{"start":306.467,"end":317.916,"text":"部長所長我想0403花蓮地震之後當然觀光署有提出一個振興的一個方案希望能夠來幫忙花蓮的觀光業者那預計投入了11的經費那目前的成效如何"},{"start":319.231,"end":338.631,"text":"對 我們這次主要還是花蓮市從6月1號開始 那麼看起來這個在端午節這個假期因為跟去年比的話 去年是4天那這一次是3天 那在花蓮縣這個部分的住房率確實也不太理想 是"},{"start":341.134,"end":352.627,"text":"本期還是要提醒就是說我們的振興觀光不能只用單點思考尤其你說你要到花東一定要經過屏東跟宜蘭你只有補助花東 屏東跟宜蘭都沒有補助人家要怎麼帶進來"},{"start":358.106,"end":378.392,"text":"對 這個應該講分兩個部分談跟委員報告一下我們在推南彎就是希望把這個雲加這個我們講說南部南台灣這部分能夠帶動那當然雙東的部分也是在我們來講是台灣最南邊所以這個台東跟屏東本來就是我們一個重點是"},{"start":379.672,"end":400.06,"text":"這個部長這個本席還是要提醒就是說這個過去以來當然我們恆春半島恆春的觀光跟小琉球是我們很重要的一個觀光狼帶那目前看起來這個恆春半島的觀光產業也受到很大的影響甚至連這一次我們的這個訂房率這個端午節的訂房率也不盡理想"},{"start":400.7,"end":423.861,"text":"那大鵬灣看起來目前我們不管是觀光署還是大鵬灣管理署只著重在小琉球那小琉球其實你們不用形象齁人客就很多啦一個客幕啦齁那尤其我們看到更遺憾的是這個大鵬灣的發展上面齁我們著重在小琉球之外但是我們整個大鵬灣的共同管溝到目前為止都還沒有做"},{"start":424.462,"end":424.722,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":439.244,"end":456.822,"text":"所以我們會來加速大鵬灣相關的這個觀光客的引入好另外我想馬上就是七月份就是暑假來臨那針對整個我們這個屏東縣的這個觀光的一個補助的一個行程還是一些套裝的一個配套措施"},{"start":457.242,"end":457.843,"text":"徐富癸徐副副副副副"},{"start":483.784,"end":485.165,"text":"徐富癸徐副副副副副副副"},{"start":493.769,"end":519.418,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個屏東跟台東本來就是我們輔導的一個重點所以這個部分我們會在委員要求之下我們6月底會提一個報告給你蘇長有輔導又有成效啦不是只有帳面上都看不到的東西是輔導有用沒用啦對啦不是因為他比較不過屏東縣政府也很努力啦我們跟屏東縣政府也很多合作的項目"},{"start":520.518,"end":547.23,"text":"對啦但是縣政府財源有限真的還是要靠我們部長跟署長裡面做幫忙啊讓我們一些公共活動能夠再大力推展一下是 有人委員報告這次屏東在端午節住房率大概有55%那確實是還有提升的空間不過55%大家準備都撈白菜啊55%部長署長再拜託一下我們再努力跟縣政府這邊我們再來合作看怎麼樣針對暑假能夠再強化一下好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153994","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153994","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0112aacd092b4e90b5c95aab381092a401d141634ad16f55f3f3c00194d6c03235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:03:02 - 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局長我們桃園行情的slogan是什麼"},{"start":50.33,"end":71.638,"text":"討厭行情有口皆悲地勤服務世界一流可是根據民航局提供的說明資料陶欣公司113年違規的事件今年1月到4月就有35件那5月份有事件那其中一件還是地安事件民航局是等到5月1號的時候航機拖車漏油事件還有發生35起違規才下令檢討嗎"},{"start":75.257,"end":101.059,"text":"我想跟委員報告在這個整個機場的地勤管理其實是一個三級制逃勤本身要自我管理那當然他發生的這一些超限或者是事件非常多那這個部分個案來講逃機這邊有對他做一些相關的處理如果他比如說他有之前有一個案件他有去撞到他會去把他的若是小客那個拖車的駕駛他會去做一些處理個案都有處理"},{"start":101.9,"end":126.449,"text":"那在5月份的時候發生這個航機拖油的這個漏油的事件那這個部分我們有請他提出檢討報告然後相關的陶琴來講他也做了相關的一些改善措施那可是根據這個期間所發生的一些譬如說他有一些超速或超限的這一些不當的部分這部分我們會再要求陶琴這邊來再做改善這個是第一個部分"},{"start":126.749,"end":126.769,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":152.984,"end":175.859,"text":"那現在針對這些35起的違規事件有沒有做出懲處相關懲處個案的部分是在這個淘機做處理人員的訓練等等比如說他在吊扣他的一些駕照的部分是淘機在做處理那至於是不是整個全面性的一個檢討的部分這部分我們會再另外要求有沒有檢討地勤作業的SOP管理機制"},{"start":179.352,"end":180.894,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通部長李孟諺列席報告"},{"start":198.269,"end":198.449,"text":"請董事長說明"},{"start":217.068,"end":241.665,"text":"再簡單補充說明一下在機場公司的部分事實上我們現在已經統計了今年1月到5月的發生的類似的這個地形事故的這個次數那我們也會把這些次數現在的處理方式要做一些強化那剛剛提到的這個我們的處理事實上在這5個月期間我們發現的次數裡面嚴重的部分都採取了最嚴重的調照的處分"},{"start":242.265,"end":257.299,"text":"所以這部分事實上是已經在執行當中那稽查的頻率我們現在準備要再提高就是說稽查的次數要再增加那跟這些公司的安全管理的會議我們要求提高層級來參加強化我們管理措施"},{"start":258.19,"end":283.113,"text":"再請董事長督促並作出改善。請教部長,我們看到我們地方的交通建設,桃園市政府現在正在大力協助超維還有大訊科技在本席的選區桃園8的擴大投資案。桃園具有AI的生態系還有地理位置、土地還有人才物流中心還有國際機場的相關優勢,包含賴清德總統也提出的桃竹苗大溪谷計畫。本席以回答為例,"},{"start":286.396,"end":297.785,"text":"以回答為例在台灣蓋AI超級電腦中心在設研發中心還有並規劃設立總部那請問部長針對國際大廠投資案交通是不是一個重要的因素那如果交通建設不能如質如期的完工是否會影響到地方的產業發展"},{"start":307.739,"end":307.9,"text":"邱若華議員"},{"start":339.22,"end":355.891,"text":"這個部分我們來跟行政院公民署長這邊請他來協助看怎麼樣因為國會通過他要報告院院的交還處要簽報給院長那我們再請院裡面來協助這個部分讓他可以盡速的來核定"},{"start":356.761,"end":383.592,"text":"那在反警部長那期待好消息那我們還有有關我們桃園地方的交通建設國道3號增設8的交流道工程還有國道2號增設中路交流道還有桃園捷運綠線延伸至大溪目前的進度如何綠線延伸到大溪目前正由市政府在做在做這個可行性的評估的這個這個這個評估報告那報告上來我們會來協助他們儘速的來審議"},{"start":387.742,"end":396.217,"text":"好那就是我們的大溪捷運那還有我們的國道3號增設巴的交流道工程目前的進度"},{"start":399.67,"end":400.711,"text":"所以目前都還在市政府這邊要"},{"start":427.592,"end":454,"text":"是一起一起一起我們都會跟他一起密切的配合來來來做的進度那計劃都已經合定了OK好謝謝您的說明那部長那地方產業已經比過去還要來得快許多那以巴德和大溪為例那目前正在規劃巴德有新豐科技園區還有大溪的科技園區喔也是我們正在積極就是台商回流的重要的一點之一那希望部長不要讓交通的問題成為爭取投資案還有產業發展不利的因素"},{"start":454.44,"end":470.121,"text":"我想我這幾年在中央在這個桃園的包括交流道的建設我這邊評估至少大概就有6處的交流道正在建設施工中所以政府對桃園的這個交通的改善的努力可以說是不遺餘力"},{"start":471.222,"end":486.248,"text":"最後一個問題那國人都很關心的新的交通安全那過去那政府和交通部也是積極想要撕掉台灣的新的新的標籤那今年第一次新的死亡數不降反升事故有九萬七千多件那這邊可不可以做說明"},{"start":488.37,"end":506.486,"text":"整體的死亡率是下降少了大概39個人大概有5%的這個下降但是行人確實是有增加在今年1到3月那這個部分我們會從幾個面向包括設施的改善這個行人安全的宣導駕駛的這個訓練在教育等等"},{"start":511.63,"end":511.73,"text":"邱若華"}]}},{"id":"153993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba001fd48b85b0342635c95aab381092a401d141634ad16f55fe00a675d9541ec565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:50:06 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11:02:50","影片長度":"00:12:44","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長李孟諺列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T10:50:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:02:50+08:00","duration":764,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時50分）謝謝昆澤召委，請交通部長、航港局長、民航局長及航政司長。"],["主席：請點到名的官員上臺。"],["陳委員雪生：部長早安。"],["李部長孟諺：召委早。"],["陳委員雪生：上次部長拜會我，第一次見面留下非常好的印象。"],["李部長孟諺：謝謝召委。"],["陳委員雪生：部長非常的客氣、謙虛。"],["李部長孟諺：不敢。"],["陳委員雪生：歡迎你到交通部來服務，是我們民眾之福。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我有一個問題，民國80年以前戰地政務還沒解除，臺灣到馬祖的交通是靠什麼？靠軍艦，交通是由國防部在負責，後來馬祖陸續引進了船隻，還有空中交通，建設了機場，馬祖才有空中的飛行。到目前為止，航港局的部分，臺北港到福澳港有用油補貼、油料補貼，局長，是嘛？"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["陳委員雪生：南北竿我們有小三通航線到大陸，一定是虧損的，因為人員不夠，船隻比較大，油料耗損比較多，所以有虧損補貼，一年大概虧損一、兩千萬，這都由航港局補貼了。還有基隆港到馬祖，因為那個船大概是5,000噸，載的人也不見得那麼多，這個虧損補貼也是由航港局在負責，透過一個連江航業來補貼。","我現在講到空中的航線，松山機場到北竿，以前國內第二家航空公司進駐以後，松山機場到北竿沒有人願意去，為什麼呢？虧損，所以沒有人願意飛。現在我們提高雄航線到馬祖，我一直提，提了快2年了，一直找民航局、航港局、觀光局談，談不下來，我甚至到總質詢向院長質詢，到現在還無解。高雄到馬祖原來是有空中航線的，高雄跟南竿的航線是立榮航空在飛，93年10月12號開航，高雄航線初期是週二、四、六每天飛一班，也就是禮拜二、禮拜四及禮拜六每天飛一班，民國94年4月1號停航，停航的原因是什麼？虧損，然後用油量的部分，因為航程比較遠，我們在馬祖的機場沒辦法加油，所以減重飛行，航程又比較遠，那時候票價是四千多塊。","部長，我一直要求民航局能夠補助1,000萬來做高雄跟馬祖的空中航線，我想國內的交通既然在馬祖地區蓋了兩座機場──一個南竿機場、一個北竿機場，民航局就要負起這個責任來嘛，是不是？要負起這個責任來。民航局在擔心什麼呢？擔心援引效應，因為澎湖也有馬公機場嘛，但只有一個機場啊，他怕援引效應，就是澎湖也來要求各路的飛機也要飛澎湖，因為怕會有援引效應，所以建議由觀光署來補助，初期希望用包機的方式辦理，民航局建議以包機方式辦理，縣長、議長還有本席也聯袂拜訪了民航局、拜訪了立榮航空、拜訪了華信航空，現在比較有意願的是華信航空。因為華信航空目前只有飛南竿，經過初步的探討，華信航空評估以包機方式來回的成本一趟要57萬，以57萬倒回來算，單純的票價大概一張是四千九百多塊錢，以票價四千九百多塊錢來說，高雄人到馬祖或馬祖人到高雄搭機的意願就很低了。","現在高雄那邊，我們馬祖軍中的子弟大概占了一半，所以老百姓的聲音還小，軍方的聲音更大，軍方這些從軍的子弟如果要回高雄，先要在松山機場落或是基隆碼頭的港口落，落了以後還要再搭高鐵或是再轉機回高雄，我想這個對在前線服役的子弟也不公平。另外就是高雄很多的鄉親希望到馬祖觀光，他們走哪一條線？他們從高雄先到金門去，金門到廈門、廈門到福州、福州到馬祖，用這種方式來，因為馬祖在觀光季的時候一票難求。所以我想交通部對離島偏鄉有行的便利的義務跟責任，部長，你覺得呢？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我們確實是要讓大家在交通上能夠享有一樣的權利。"],["陳委員雪生：對嘛，臺北人到宜蘭去都可以打個雪山隧道，最近我們傅崐萁總召也說東西部要串通，國道6號、高鐵快速道路，他也提出來了，為什麼？就是老百姓緊急需要的嘛。現在就是說，我們交通部所做的每一件事情應該不是以營利為目的吧，是以營利為目的嗎？不是，不是為了賺錢嘛，你要把這個血路打通、打開嘛，這才是我們交通部主政之道。","部長，我曾經就這個議題在總質詢時對院長也提出來，也請院長幫忙，我拜託部長，是不是能夠召集觀光署、民航局進行跨局處的會議，請你主持一下，因為已經兩年了，我希望這個能以民航作業基金來補助，因為航港局有類似的慣例，他們從航港作業基金去處理這方面的事情，我們希望民航局也能夠從這方面處理，但是民航局怕援引效應，怕澎湖、金門跟進，跟進就跟進嘛，有什麼關係呢？跟進就跟進嘛，也給他們1,000萬嘛，我想交通部七、八千億的總預算，不在乎那麼一點錢。所以我拜託部長在這方面能不能幫忙一下？民航局長，你說明一下，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：我請何局長跟您報告。"],["陳委員雪生：何局長說明一下，你為什麼要請觀光署來補助這個東西？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，確實啦，照顧離島居民行的權利，這件事情民航局也應該責無旁貸，不過因為這一條航線或者是整個在補貼虧損的機制上，是要有基本的運行，譬如像現在臺北到南、北竿其實每一天大概就有8班，淡旺季不同，大概有10班左右；可是像臺中、南竿之間也有營運，業者也沒有申請虧損補貼；早期的高雄、南竿之間，確實當初申請的時候也沒有虧損補貼，這個虧損補貼不是只針對南、北竿，譬如到離島，如果以後有臺北到其他離島的航線都要用業者的虧損補貼，這個部分就會比較龐大。"],["陳委員雪生：局長，殺頭生意有人做，虧本生意沒人做。"],["何局長淑萍：是，這個……"],["陳委員雪生：航空公司也一樣！請召委再給我2分鐘的時間。雖然華信是交通部所屬的，可以說股份是我們占比比較多嘛，問題是人家還是以營利為目的，有錢才去，沒錢賺還要跑去做這個生意，他要對股東大會、要對董事會負責耶！"],["何局長淑萍：對，跟委員報告，剛剛有提到，對於這個部分我們才會說，如果促進高雄跟馬祖之間航線，除了一些基本的需求，還有一些觀光的需要，因為當初委員垂詢的時候，部裡有召開跨局署的會議，所以是不是這個部分……"],["陳委員雪生：何局長，我想不管怎麼處理……部長，我今天拜託部長，你剛剛才上任，我們彼此都留下一個很好的印象嘛，我希望你在部裡面能夠重視這件事情，航港局對馬祖地區很多虧損的東西都補貼了，民航局也一樣，從馬祖飛臺北，這裡面虧損的事情，交通部當然要負起責任來，你要負責把馬祖的老百姓跟軍人送到臺灣來，把臺灣的居民再送回去，返鄉嘛！尤其現在觀光立縣，把觀光客送到那邊去是非常重要的，你們都曉得花蓮現在住宿一個晚上補助一千塊，為什麼？因為地震嘛！是不是？所以有關行的便利跟責任，你們要扛起來，不能因為每個局、處各有其本位主義，各有考慮的問題，這個事情就不要做了，那不就開花了嗎？是不是？請部長說明一下。"],["李部長孟諺：是，針對這個部分，我們會再邀集相關局處，甚至跨部會，包括國防部大家一起來……"],["陳委員雪生：我已經受不了了，已經兩年了，部長，希望你一個月內，我也不要要求你一、兩個禮拜，就一個月內，希望部長能夠回答我這個問題，好不好？你怎麼解決，不管是觀光署也好，民航局也好，我都沒有意見，我都沒有意見，但請你幫我們解決這個問題，可不可以？"],["李部長孟諺：我們來尋找一個最佳化的解決方案，兼顧馬祖的觀光跟居民。"],["陳委員雪生：另外航港局部分，臺中港警所破破爛爛、破爛不堪，拜託葉局長這邊能夠補助港務公司一點錢，給他們二千萬做個維修、做個小修，可以嗎？"],["葉局長協隆：報告委員，有關港警廳舍的維修，行政院跟交通部有一個協助原則，下禮拜五我已經訂好一個會議時間，邀集相關單位來協商，我們會儘量協助……"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝局長。另外，拜託觀光署周署長，不要何局長推到你那邊去，你那邊又說不能補助馬祖，這樣弄的話，讓我們新任的部長……"],["周署長永暉：不會啦！我們合作無間。"],["陳委員雪生：不是啦！合作無間沒錯，但你不要讓新任的部長為難，讓部長剛剛才上任，就好像有點做不下去的感覺，希望你們兩位協調一下，好不好？另外，馬祖飛高雄的航線，拜託部長一個月給我答復，這個不能再拖了，因為航空公司還要有準備的時間，如果你現在承諾了，他們起碼到10月份才能夠飛航，因為還有地面和空中的準備工作。部長，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：我們來看怎麼樣找到一個具衡平性，而且可以……"],["陳委員雪生：怎麼找你去找啊，因為所有權力都抓在你的手上，好不好？謝謝召委，謝謝。"],["主席：陳雪生委員發言完畢。","現在請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-16","speakers":["李昆澤","黃健豪","林國成","林沛祥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","葉元之","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","許智傑","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳俊宇","鄭天財Sra 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七八千億的總預算,不在乎那麼一點錢。所以我拜託部長這一方面能不能幫忙一下,你也可以請。民航局長你說明一下好不好,民航局長。何局長說明一下。"},{"start":467.322,"end":482.661,"text":"因為我們要請公安局公安署來補助這個東西跟委員報告確實就是說照顧離島居民行的權利這個是我們不應該民航局也應該來責無旁貸那不過因為這一條航線或者是整個在補貼的虧損的機制上"},{"start":484.884,"end":485.124,"text":"﹚陳雪生﹚"},{"start":501.169,"end":501.209,"text":"雖然雖然"},{"start":532.607,"end":547.415,"text":"雖然華信是交通部所屬的股份我們佔比比較多,問題是人家還是以盈利為目的,有錢才去沒錢賺他跑去做這個生意,他要對股東大會要對董事會負責"},{"start":548.598,"end":571.699,"text":"對,所以跟委員報告,就是剛剛有提到,這個部分我們才會說,如果促進高雄跟這個馬祖之間,如果除了一些基本的需求,還有一些觀光的需要,那是不是因為當初也有委員有垂詢的時候,部理會來召開跨局署的會議?所以這部分,我想不管怎麼處理,部長"},{"start":573.854,"end":593.542,"text":"我今天拜託部長,你剛剛才上任,我們都留下一個很好,彼此都留下一個很好的印象我希望你能夠在部裡面重視這件事情,航港局你對馬祖地區很多虧損的東西你都補貼了民航局你也一樣,從馬祖飛台北"},{"start":594.904,"end":622.492,"text":"這裡面虧損的事情你交通部當然要負起責任來你要負責把馬祖的老百姓跟軍人送到台灣來把台灣的居民再送回去返鄉或是尤其現在觀光力線這觀光客把他送到那邊去這都非常重要的你們都曉得花蓮現在住宿一個晚上民宿補助他一千塊為什麼?因為地震嘛是不是?那所以這個行的便利跟責任你們要扛起來嘛你不能因為說"},{"start":624.615,"end":645.788,"text":"每個局每個處都有他本位主義,他在想這個問題,這樣這個事情就不要做了,就開花了嘛是不是?部長你說明一下好不好?我想這個部分我們會再邀集相關的局處,另外甚至是跨部會包括國防部大家一起來我已經受不了了,已經兩年了,部長"},{"start":647.449,"end":667.699,"text":"我希望你一個月以內好不好,我也不要你說一兩個禮拜啊,一個月以內希望部長能夠回答我這個問題好不好你怎麼解決,你不管官方署也好,民航局也好,我都沒意見,我都沒意見,但是你把這問題幫我解決,可以不可以?是,我們來尋找看怎麼樣有一個最佳化的解決的方案"},{"start":668.599,"end":684.377,"text":"另外的港港局,我們台中的港警鎖破破爛爛破爛不堪,我拜託葉局長這邊能夠給港務公司一點錢,給他兩千萬,幫他做一個維修好不好,做個小修,可以嗎?"},{"start":687.526,"end":716.201,"text":"包委員,因為有關港警廳舍的維修,在行政院跟交通部有一個協助的原則我想我下禮拜五已經訂好一個會議時間,邀請相關單位來做一個協商那我們會盡量來做協助,在院跟處的原則下那個觀光署周市長拜託好不好你不要河區長推到你那邊去,你那邊又說你這裡又不能補助馬祖那你這樣弄的話,讓我們新任的部長"},{"start":718.944,"end":733.07,"text":"合作無間沒錯,你不要讓我們新任的部長很為難好不好,讓他部長剛剛才上任有點坐不下去的感覺好不好,希望你們兩位協調一下好不好馬祖飛高雄的航線拜託"},{"start":734.17,"end":760.197,"text":"部長一個月給我答覆好不好因為不能再拖了這個準備因為飛機要航空公司還有準備的時間你現在如果承諾他的話他起碼到10月份才能夠飛航他有地面還有空中的準備工作部長好不好我們來看怎麼樣找到一個具有橫平性怎麼找你去找啊因為所有的權力都抓在你的手上好不好那個謝謝召委謝謝"},{"start":763.198,"end":763.96,"text":"陳雪生委員發言完"}]}},{"id":"153992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0a64f9cf7df1512d6c65fab1c545da5d01d141634ad16f55f7082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:08:18 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有請次長"},{"start":12.13,"end":12.43,"text":"委員好"},{"start":43.21,"end":69.175,"text":"不好意思,我沒有想起那就是我今天要講的就是我們產創條例實施三年那個想要透過跟產業界合作然後做創新的那當然在產創條例實施前所謂的產學合作利益都良好像你這個部分都講的是好的部分可是有很多的亂象那我覺得也是該到一個檢討的時期"},{"start":71.195,"end":99.754,"text":"上次我有問過部長不知道次長有沒有去了解就是楊交大的師生抗議覺得學校在建架迎合企業就是要讓群聯進駐原本人家捐給客家學院要做就是客家學院的土地那不知道次長有沒有了解這個事情的發展報告委員這個案子後來就撤案了後來撤案了那次長您的態度您覺得可是是在"},{"start":101.115,"end":108.34,"text":"市長,您對這件事情的態度是什麼呢?你覺得原本楊交大要這樣做到底是不是我們產學合作該做的方向?"},{"start":122.577,"end":138.689,"text":"我覺得他這個案子我覺得他其實確實是應該要顧及到當地的人文的這個原本的特色這件事情確實當初這樣子會引起這個客院的師生的抗議我覺得這個是有道理的"},{"start":139.509,"end":164.376,"text":"我是想請次長去了解一件事就是我們現在居然沒有任何的法規可以去規範就如果課院師生沒有出來抗議的話可能這整個事情就過去了我們看起來好像覺得很不合理的一個產學合作的方向跟內容它幾乎沒有任何的法規我們可以處理那當然跟我們這個大學自主等等有相關"},{"start":165.276,"end":186.009,"text":"但是我要告訴次長的是這不是第一次而且我現在講的不是只有楊交大我現在光舉楊交大這麼一個國立大學我們私立大學的部分我們還先不要舉因為這個是發生在今年的事情我們辦公室也有接到陳情不過後來就是楊交大的那個案子就自己撤案了就沒有要讓群聯來用這一塊地蓋商辦"},{"start":189.771,"end":210.812,"text":"可是楊交大2021��2021年就發生過交應樓的爭議也發生過致遠樓的爭議那我已經跟教育部所知知道就是說你們其實是瞭解這個狀況的那你看2021年的時候這個華映捐的這個商業大樓它破產之後連媒體都報告過還想拿來變現抵債"},{"start":214.235,"end":218.359,"text":"至遠樓的部分也一樣他們還有產權爭議後來還在官司中5月30日法院才核定企業界沒有擁有產權"},{"start":229.491,"end":248.932,"text":"所以次長你怎麼看產權合作到最後產權還有爭議還在那個企業還想拿來抵押就是抵債然後就是還想要上法院要求要擁有這個產權我們怎麼產權合作到最後產權明明都是國立大學是不是國家的土地請問次長"},{"start":250.015,"end":267.813,"text":"跟委員報告,我們認為這是國家的土地國家的資源,進行產學合作不管是空間之外要怎麼運用最重要就是要在教育的目的之下不管他是轉租或是他做什麼事情其實都還是要在教育目的之下"},{"start":271.336,"end":283.305,"text":"那我想問的是說那他們如果已經不符合教育目的的話然後產權如果法院當時沒有判是給就是楊交大的話那我們教育部有沒有任何法規可以處理"},{"start":291.214,"end":297.681,"text":"有任何法規可以處理嗎?已經失去了教育的目的的話?學校跟任何產學他就訂一個產學合作的契約"},{"start":304.608,"end":330.915,"text":"那契約你們有辦法管理嗎?沒有,現在因為國立大學有關他的這些土地建物是由他來當管理機關不是教育部所以這個就是問題那台大就發生有一位教授去告說因為台大當時校長不願意公佈跟郭台銘的基金會的契約內容說是私人契約沒有需要公開後來告到法院法院最後判那個教授應該要公開因為是公共事務"},{"start":331.855,"end":357.368,"text":"所以現在這個契約連自己學校的教授都不能看所以這裡面一定是契約出了問題嘛那您剛講次長講得非常好要以教育為目的我們光以當時這個報導就是都已經不是教育的目的了學師生熬夜做研究那個企業大樓的管委會還嫌他們就是用水電是不是用太多不歡迎他們熬夜做研究"},{"start":358.068,"end":382.702,"text":"所以原本企業捐款蓋大樓因為學校需要這個錢可是土地明明是國家的是這個洋交大的最後會發生就是企業也沒有再提供什麼產學合作的機會了還租給別的企業當辦公室收租金所以這裡面這個亂象已經失去了教育的目的那問題就在教育部好像無法可管"},{"start":383.382,"end":384.743,"text":"所以你的意思是國有財產署要去管嗎?所以依法誰去收回?是國有財產署去收回嗎?"},{"start":406.363,"end":433.162,"text":"學校去收回,學校就不管啊,學校很高興啊簽那個約簽40年啊學校應該要依法收回但是學校沒有依法收回的時候呢?那我們就會督促學校應該去收回那你們看到剛剛那個新聞你們有去督促學校嗎?這個楊交大這個是2021年的新聞欸你們有去督促學校嗎?有關這個交應樓因為它華映公司破產了以後所以其實整個產權已經拿回到楊交大在使用"},{"start":433.502,"end":437.744,"text":"我現在要講是你這個已經是亡羊補牢了可是有多少這種約包含剛剛講臺大那個電機系教授去告的那個事情表示這個約本身有很大的問題所以我現在再舉更多的例子清華大學被學生抗議的臺北政經學院"},{"start":455.712,"end":476.557,"text":"還有2014年北科大經過中校東路都有看過北科大產學合作為名的出租大樓學生也看過都無用便汽車賣場這個部分那是教育用途嗎請問那個次長北科大的校地賣汽車賣高檔汽車在中校東路上您有經過過吧那棟大樓不是那麼了解那棟大樓不是嗎"},{"start":485.042,"end":509.007,"text":"我不是這麼瞭解我不是說不是你不瞭解沒有關係這個部分其實到現在為止師生抗議國之後就還是沒有辦法處理所以我想產學合作現在造成的問題就是校地變成商用產權引爭議跌床架屋最近還有台大的政經學院案就是校園民主似乎失靈了"},{"start":509.747,"end":509.767,"text":"次長．"},{"start":533.157,"end":536.683,"text":"委員是說就是台大最近依照我們這個產創條例通過的那個政經學院"},{"start":541.345,"end":566.824,"text":"有,第一次校務會議沒有通過因為很多老師反彈那主要是政治系、經濟系的那第二次不知道為什麼就通過了那我要問的事情是當時十幾個民團跟學生會就認為他有很多的問題那我想問的事情是次長你知不知道這個產學條例他會避開哪些高教重要法規就是一個特別法他避開了哪些法"},{"start":568.883,"end":586.73,"text":"我想他是在鬆綁一些關於採購人士的這些部份他會跳過大學法跳過教師法這兩個就夠重要了您應該會非常了解可是我們以台大這個例子為例就是學位授予法至少跳過了十條法因為他是特別法所以權力非常的大"},{"start":587.43,"end":601.669,"text":"但是以台大政經學院的過程當時我們講的不是政治經濟也不是地緣政治 因為是產創所以台大的教授寫文章次長有空可以看一下黃長林這位委員教授講的事這不符合我們產創條例的精神"},{"start":604.352,"end":608.718,"text":"但這部分是我們相關的審議會放寬的內容把這個政治經濟加進去當時我們講的都是類似像台積電等等這些半導體的那不知道為什麼是這樣"},{"start":621.095,"end":621.115,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba06beb7f1113a062d38ff7e0bc1ebc50211d141634ad16f55ff1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"12:11:17 - 12:18:53","影片長度":"00:07:36","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T12:11:17+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:18:53+08:00","duration":456,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（12時11分）謝謝主席。請內政部馬次長、銓敘部張次長、警政署張署長及消防署蕭署長。"],["主席：麻煩各位官員上臺。"],["許委員宇甄：次長好、署長好。6月15日就是警察節，在警察節前夕我們來審查警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正案，對於退休的警消人員來說讓他們生活更有保障，我想這是對警察人員最高的一個致敬。賴總統在去年擔任副總統的時候也有針對提高警察勤務加給百分之十五來回應這些堅守崗位的員警，讓政府成為人民保母的靠山，賴總統那時候是針對我們現任的警察同仁，但是對於已經退休的警察人員我覺得也應該給予更多的保障，讓他們在退休之後可以享有安居樂業的退休生活。我想請教一下內政部次長，對於我們今天要修正的這個草案您的看法？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，其實對警消同仁我們是把他分成三個部分，一個是現職同仁的照顧，第二個是所謂的撫卹，第三個是退休。對於這三個部分我們有三個部分不同的照顧和設計，現職同仁的部分以警察來講目前已經有16項對於現職人員……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在針對的是退休警消人員。"],["馬次長士元：退休警消人員的部分，依照我們的立場，是對於退休警消同仁權益的提升我們是絕對同意的，但怎麼去提升，怎麼樣能夠合理的讓我們的措施跟國家的財政做平衡，這需要跟委員再討論。"],["許委員宇甄：所以次長原則上對於這個部分我們的修正條文是同意的，至於什麼方式，我們都可以再討論，是嗎？"],["馬次長士元：應該跟委員報告就是說，方向上我們同意也認同對於退休警消同仁的權益保障，但對於怎麼做這件事情，我們必須再有更多的社會溝通。"],["許委員宇甄：我再請教一下警政署張署長和消防署蕭副署長的看法。"],["張署長榮興：剛才很多委員也都這樣提了，就是說我們對於現職和退休都同樣會去做照顧，至於今天修的這一條，我們會跟相關單位積極的做溝通、協助，做積極的處理。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝，那蕭署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員對消防的關心，在過去的一段時間，目前是有一個23項計畫、270億的經費未來會投注在消防人員的工作上。昨天院長也批示針對職業安全我們給消防人員的服務，這是現職人員的部分。對於退職人員，我們也同樣儘量以溝通協調的方式來讓退職人員能夠得到相對的一個服務。"],["許委員宇甄：我想三位對於這個部分都有共識，就是希望用協調的方式針對退休的警消人員能夠給予最大的協助。請問一下銓敘部張次長。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：我看銓敘部提出的報告是說提高警消等人員的退休所得替代率會引起其他人數眾多的其他公務人員的不滿。"],["張次長秋元：的確是這樣的狀態，因為大家都繳一樣的錢，本來是繳一樣的錢、然後領一樣的錢，現在這個提案會變成繳一樣的錢，然後領不一樣的錢，因為它是一個基金，是大家一起共同提撥的，就會產生不一樣的差異。"],["許委員宇甄：如果是把適用在該基金的所有其他公務人員的所得替代率提高呢？這樣不就公平了嗎？"],["張次長秋元：那樣就像剛剛黃國昌委員所講的會衝擊到基金的財務，會有更大的衝擊，這個部分還要再精算……"],["許委員宇甄：你剛剛說衝擊到基金的財務嘛。"],["張次長秋元：基金的財務，對。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我想我們大家都知道勞保基金，大家都說勞保基金可能都會破產、破產、破產，可是勞動部長針對大家詢問這個問題時，他提到他覺得沒問題，以政府的財政一定可以持續的撥補勞健保而且會逐年的增加，為什麼勞保基金可以這麼做而退撫基金卻沒辦法這麼做？"],["張次長秋元：跟委員報告，其實公務人員退撫基金政府也是在撥補，這幾年大概已經撥補了，像結餘的撥補是2,074億元，如果再加上軍人的撥補600億元，總共兩千六百多億元。"],["許委員宇甄：如果像勞動部長這樣子的話，他可以非常負責任、有guts的跟大家說勞保基金可以撥補。"],["張次長秋元：跟委員報告，現在退撫基金是朝向一個比較健康的方向在發展，公保基金已經很健康了，我們是足額提存的，然後退撫基金的部分因為大家的努力、大家的共體時艱之後，其實它是往好的方向發展。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得以公平性來說的話，既然勞保基金可以用這樣的方式，退撫基金應該銓敘部也要想辦法是不是有怎麼樣的方式。","再來請教馬次長，新式數位身分證的換發到現在因為暫停，但已經浪費納稅人十億多，現在每年還要花6,735萬來維護未來可能不會使用的設備，所以我覺得這個新的數位身分證應該趕快決定到底要不要繼續還是終止，不然每年花六千多萬撥補給未來可能用不到的，如果把這筆錢省下來撥補給警消人員退休金使用的話，是不是就可以呢？","另外，我們有很多錢都花在不該花的地方，包括之前新冠肺炎疫苗的成本比其他國家高了很多，還有錯誤的能源政策，每度電要花12塊跟綠電業者買電，導致台電到現在已經連續兩年虧損達5,460億，也是用撥補的，也是政府撥補的，所以如果這些錯誤的能源政策不要浪費這好幾千億，那請問一下，警消人員的退休金是不是就可以不要被砍了？請馬次長好好思考一下。","今天在這邊還有農業部的人員，我們之前也讓資本額50萬元的公司去買了八千多萬顆雞蛋，現在還要花好幾千萬去銷毀已經過期的雞蛋，所以如果各部會都能好好的思考這些預算怎麼好好的使用的話，不會浪費納稅人的錢的話，事實上退休警消人員的這個部分就不會付不出來了。這個部分再請馬次長能夠好好的去協調未來我們要怎麼照顧退休的警消人員。謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.62034375,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.274093750000002,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.10409375,"end":18.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.06159375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.61846875,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.922218750000003,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.99784375,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.30409375,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.46534375,"end":112.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":112.65471875,"end":133.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.67284375,"end":139.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":139.60409375,"end":151.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.84284375000001,"end":156.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.37784375,"end":174.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.83909375000002,"end":176.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.38721875000002,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.06659375,"end":204.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.30284375000002,"end":218.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.27534375000002,"end":218.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.62971875000002,"end":230.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.64471875,"end":236.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.70284375000003,"end":237.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.52971875000003,"end":240.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.51659375000003,"end":243.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.63846875000002,"end":247.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.72659375,"end":252.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.55284375000002,"end":262.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.34159375000002,"end":254.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.85971875,"end":283.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.69596875,"end":281.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.37909375000004,"end":289.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.45409375,"end":291.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.49596875000003,"end":291.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.57596875,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.90784375000004,"end":312.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.35034375000004,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.71284375000005,"end":308.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.02909375,"end":315.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.22221875,"end":320.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.52971875000003,"end":319.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.20034375,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.43659375000004,"end":327.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.14034375,"end":409.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.97534375000004,"end":455.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":455.11596875000004,"end":455.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.213,"end":18.046,"text":"謝謝主席我們請內政部馬次長全序部張次長警政署張署長跟消防署蕭署長麻煩"},{"start":20.077,"end":24.02,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正"},{"start":43.974,"end":47.578,"text":"二）委員賴副總統在去年擔任副總統的時候也有針對我們的警察提高勤務加級的15%來回應這些堅守崗位讓我們的警察從政府成為人民的保姆的靠山"},{"start":62.972,"end":65.814,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":88.342,"end":112.234,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們警消同仁我們把它分成三個部分一個就是說我們限職同仁的照顧那第二是所謂的撫恤第三個是退休那對於這三個部分我們有三個部分不同的一個照顧跟我們的設計那限職同仁的部分以警察來講我們目前已經有16項對於限職警察我現在針對的是退休的這個警消人員"},{"start":112.814,"end":138.502,"text":"退休警校委員的部分是依照我們的立場就是說我們對於退休警校同仁的權益的提升這個我們絕對是同意的但是怎麼去提升怎麼樣能夠合理的然後能夠讓我們的措施跟國家的財政能夠做平衡這個需要去跟委員在討論所以次長原則上對於這個部分我們的修正條例您是同意的但就是至於什麼方式我們都可以再討論是嗎"},{"start":139.682,"end":141.824,"text":"三草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":156.654,"end":172.481,"text":"對我剛有很多委員都這樣提的就是說我們對於限職跟退休都同樣會去做照顧那至於這一些今天修了這一條我們會跟相關的單位會來積極來做溝通協助來做積極處理謝謝那蕭署長"},{"start":178.018,"end":204.317,"text":"感謝委員對消防的關心在過去的時間目前是有23個計畫274億的經費未來會投注在消防的工作上那昨天院長也批示一個就針對職業安全我們給消防人員的一個服務這是限制人員的部分當然對退職人員我們同樣盡量想溝通協調的方式來讓退職人員能夠得到相對的一個服務跟限制"},{"start":204.437,"end":233.34,"text":"所以我想三位其實對於這個部分其實都有共識就是希望用協調的方式來去針對我們退休的警消人員能夠給予他們最大的一個協助那請問一下全序部我們張次長你好你好像全序部我看你們提出的報告是說提高警消等人員的退休所得替代率會引起其他人數眾多的其他公務人員的不滿嗎這確實是這樣的狀態因為大家都繳一樣的錢"},{"start":233.84,"end":234.14,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":253.186,"end":254.828,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法"},{"start":281.63,"end":290.498,"text":"而退府基金卻沒辦法這麼做。」跟委員報告,其實這個關於退府基金政府也是在撥補這幾年大概已經撥補了像捷宇的撥補是2074億那如果再加上這個軍人的撥補600億的時候也撥了2600多億"},{"start":302.149,"end":304.691,"text":"二）委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":326.486,"end":347.96,"text":"我覺得啦以公平性來說的話我覺得就是說既然這個老保基金可以用這樣的方式那我們退伍基金應該全序部也要想辦法是不是用什麼樣的方式喔那我想還有再來就是說請教這個馬次長啦就是說我們的這個新式身份數位身份證的換發到現在因為暫停嘛但是已經浪費了納稅人10億多啊那現在每年還要花6735萬來維護未來可能不會使用的這個設備啊"},{"start":354.764,"end":359.508,"text":"所以如果每年,既然我覺得這個數位身份證應該要趕快的來去決定說到底要不要繼續還是終止要不然每年花6千多萬再來撥補給現在可能未來都用不到的那如果把這筆錢省下來撥補給警察人員退休金使用的話是不是就可以呢?然後另外我想"},{"start":378.105,"end":390.377,"text":"其實我們有很多的錢都花在不該花的地方包括之前新冠肺炎疫苗的成本比其他的國家高了很多還有錯誤的能源政策我們每一度電要花12塊跟綠電業者買電所以導致台電到現在已經連續兩年虧損達5460億也是用撥補的也是政府撥補的"},{"start":400.566,"end":402.247,"text":"二）委員馬次長等二）委員馬次長等二）委員馬次長等二）委員"},{"start":428.24,"end":431.021,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"153990","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153990","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0defaa96c08c074a9560592432c08898e1d141634ad16f55feebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:05:06 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12:15:10","影片長度":"00:10:04","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T12:05:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:15:10+08:00","duration":604,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1275,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時5分）謝謝主席。我看杜張副主委今天都還沒有被叫上來，我就請杜張副主委。"],["主席：有請杜張副主委。"],["陳委員瑩：宋處長。"],["主席：還有宋處長，謝謝。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：大家好！希望推動有價值的原住民保留地可以在銀行視為有力的擔保品這是我從上一屆就一直非常大力推動的事情，我在大院總質詢共問過3次，我辦公室在這個會期就開過至少3次的協調會。在3月9日的協調會，當時的決議希望原民會在一個月內修正貸款的要點，但是到4月9日、一個月時間到了並沒有完成，如果說這當中因為時間關係，我可以理解接近520交接的時間，你們如果要等新內閣上任再做確定，這個理由我是可以接受的，但是3月9日說一個月要完成的話，那麼4月初早就該處理好，而且整個進度就會耽誤到。因為後來我去瞭解原因，是你們處裡面有人在從中作梗甚至顛倒是非，我沒有誇大喔，因為這個回去傳遞的訊息真的是太誇張了！然後用漢人的思維，以及他自己既有的刻板印象，去扭曲本席原來立意良善的提案，因為這件事情是我們所有原住民殷殷期盼希望可以被解決的問題，現在已經遲了兩個月又3天了，我比較想要瞭解你們處裡的同仁是不是大家都理解了這個要被解決的問題？目前是不是還有人在從中阻攔？目前進度到底是怎麼樣？請你們報告一下。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：跟委員報告，委員所講那個有沒有從中阻攔這個我不是很清楚，但是……"],["陳委員瑩：可能處長比較清楚啦，但是我也……"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：沒有關係，我的意思是現在整個進度來講，所謂原住民保留地貸款信用保證的作業要點草案，事實上我們已經草擬出來大概四十幾點，在會裡面也已經有逐條討論，我們大概在近期可能1個月內會邀請相關的部會，再來看這個草案的條文是不是可行、有沒有什麼問題需要協調的。我想到時候還是要請委員來指導，看看這個內容的部分有沒有真正保障到原住民的權益，我想我們是朝這個方向努力。"],["陳委員瑩：所以就目前來看，你們有沒有信心去說服所有相關的部會？目前的狀況還有哪邊誰比較有問題？"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：原則上這個條文在實體上很多都是作業的要點程序，在各部會來講我想因為我們之前曾經有過信貸作業要點的一個前例，我們有針對那個部分來做研修。另外就是再增加了目前我們所看到的一些狀況，當然在信保的部分我們的保證很重要，如果可以的話，我們可以儘可能的讓其他部會能夠同意我們的一些看法跟做法，我想在協調上應該問題不大。以上。"],["陳委員瑩：處長有什麼要補充嗎？"],["宋處長麗茹：跟委員報告，這個時間最主要的落差是我們這次研擬出來的要點是新修訂的要點，不是按照過去那個信用保證要點做修正，我想因為整個立場或整個要協助的標的是不一樣的。所以我們是重新研擬一個新修訂的貸款要點，最主要拖延的時間是在這裡，我想我們會更謹慎的來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：我想相關的部會有財政部、金管會跟銀行，當然我們都知道其實這幾個單位有時候很不好溝通，所以我希望如果中間有什麼狀況再隨時讓我們知道，我們可以協助大家一起來協調。然後趕快把有價值原保地可以授信貸款這件事情處理好，這樣可以造福我們很多的族人，甚至未來不管是創業，在他們自身要購屋或者房屋修繕或者一些產業的發展推動，都可以有很好的結果。謝謝。"],["杜副主任委員張梅莊：謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員瑩：好，請你們回座。","我請羅處長。"],["主席：請羅處長。"],["陳委員瑩：主委，我就不請你了，但是我請你坐在位子上好好聽一下這個概念，因為這一題是我剛剛臨時加進來的，不是故意的，是因為我很認真聽你們的報告。在今天「賴總統原住民政見推動規劃專題報告」裡面第7頁有特別提到強化原住民族健康服務這部分，我想先請教你一個問題，因為它的目標有提到改善並提升族人平均餘命這件事情，我想請教處長，你認為提升族人的平均餘命比較重要還是縮短原住民和其他族群平均餘命的差距比較重要？"],["羅處長赫踛：兩個都重要，尤其是那個差距的部分其實我們也是很重視。"],["陳委員瑩：你回答得非常好，我快速的講一下，因為同樣的事情我也很鄭重的提醒了衛福部，在105年到109年這五年間，我先給大家一個概念好了，因為我怕這個有小數點的數據大家會亂掉。假設原住民的平均餘命跟其他族群的差距是10歲，如果原住民平均餘命增加2歲的時候，其他族群、或者我們就講全體國人的平均餘命也增加2歲的時候，大家的平均餘命都提升了，但是我們平均餘命的差距還是差人家10歲嘛，對不對？我們長期以來努力的都是在縮短我們跟其他族群的平均餘命啊！","現在再換個角度，一樣原住民平均餘命提升2歲，但是全體國人其他族群的平均餘命減少2歲，我們中間的差距本來是10歲就變成6歲，你可以說是我們努力到我們的平均餘命跟人家差6歲嗎？你不能這樣看嘛！所以我今天要導正的觀念就是在這裡，我用一個實際的，我們看一下這個表格，這是105年到109年這五年當中，原住民的平均餘命提高1.74歲，你們也有發新聞稿，比如說是因為文健站，這幾年大家很開心啦，因為我們長者平均餘命提高了將近2歲；但是我們要看全體國人的平均餘命也提高了1.32歲，所以這五年當中原住民平均餘命提高的情況並不是很單純的提高2歲，這個你們有聽懂？","另外我們再看下一個表，如果我們講到原住民跟全體國人的差距，政府公布的資訊是109年到111年這三年當中，差距縮短了1.47歲，然後連去年的原健法三讀通過的時候，你們跟衛福部也是拿這樣的資料給行政院，讓他們去發新聞稿，可是實際上是這麼單純嗎？好像也不是這樣啊！我們看這個表，各年齡層在這三年當中平均餘命的差距都縮小了1.5歲，可是再看到下面的一排紅字的數據，這三年全體國人的平均餘命都下降了大約1.5歲，所以這三年間縮短差距的背後是全體國人的平均餘命都下降了，而不是原住民的平均餘命上升，更何況其實這三年原住民的平均餘命其實是稍微減少了0.01歲。去分析這個成果跟目前情況的時候不是單單用一個統計數據就可以做為依據，這是我給你們的提醒，這個是非常重要的提醒，因為這個牽扯到原住民健康實際狀況的調查，也更深深影響到未來健康政策的制定，所以我在這邊特別請羅處長出來導正這個觀念，也讓大家了解平均餘命背後代表的意義，並不是我們單看原住民平均餘命增加多少這麼簡單。"],["羅處長赫踛：是，委員說得很正確。"],["陳委員瑩：這樣你有明白？"],["羅處長赫踛：有聽明白。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢，也謝謝羅處長。","今天登記的委員其實質詢都已經結束了，但是伍麗華委員跟盧縣一委員因為是原住民委員，所以我特別給他們一點時間也在這裡發言一下，就3分鐘，好不好？這樣子對於前面登記準時到的委員比較公平，照理說是不可以讓你們發言，但是我今天做召委，我就做這樣一個裁示，好不好？","現在請伍麗華委員質詢。謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是跑過來，當時中間隔七、八個人。謝謝主席。"],["主席：下次希望助理能夠監看一下，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不知道那七、八個人都不講。"],["主席：沒有，因為現場如果委員不在的話，其實就要注意他們可能不會發言，或者是可以打電話到我們內政委員會請議事人員回應。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：比照以前，原住民可以對原民會多一點。"],["主席：對啊，你如果準時到的話今天都講滿，但是因為你登記的時間已經過期了，我也唸完你的名字，因為是原住民委員的身分，所以我准許你們可以在登記完之後再發言，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：因為我必須要這樣講，不然以後其他的委員在這邊，召委我就很難處理，好嗎？謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我只差10秒。"],["主席：這不是差10秒的問題，好不好？謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","盧縣一","黃建賓","丁學忠","莊瑞雄"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住\n民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原\n住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推\n動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政\n部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.40596875,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.45534375,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.860343750000002,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.47596875,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.52159375,"end":20.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":21.664718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.15409375,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.52096875,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.884718750000005,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.08221875,"end":55.094093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.56659375,"end":56.595968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.73096875,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.266593750000006,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.09284375000001,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.83846875,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.40096875,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.62659375000001,"end":104.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.67284375000001,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.21534375,"end":127.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.53846875,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.08971875,"end":140.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.46471875,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.42659375,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.48909375,"end":148.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.04596875000001,"end":153.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.63159375,"end":154.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.08284375000002,"end":188.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.40659375,"end":189.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.72284375,"end":193.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.28346875000003,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.98659375000003,"end":210.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.27659375000002,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.32721875000001,"end":215.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.74409375000002,"end":238.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.65096875,"end":218.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":241.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.11971875,"end":242.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.76096875000002,"end":270.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.39784375,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.09784375000004,"end":307.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.42596875000004,"end":315.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.93096875000003,"end":317.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.39909375,"end":318.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.37784375,"end":320.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.43221875,"end":322.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.19159375000004,"end":322.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.25909375000003,"end":344.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.42846875000004,"end":351.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.82409375000003,"end":372.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.01909375,"end":377.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":377.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.71034375000005,"end":379.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.97159375,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.68034375,"end":391.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.42534375,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.23534375,"end":399.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.33971875000003,"end":401.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.63909375000003,"end":405.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.51596875,"end":409.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.32971875000004,"end":415.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.03346875000005,"end":416.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.50159375000004,"end":429.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.70221875000004,"end":434.9840937500000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正這個觀念,讓大家了解平均餘命背後代表的意義,不是我們單看原住民平均餘命增加多少,就這樣子那麼簡單。」是,委員說得很正確,有聽明白。好,謝謝。好,謝謝陳英委員的質詢。"}]}},{"id":"153989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0aa36f200067a7e098ff7e0bc1ebc50211d141634ad16f55fa637cdb474afce8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:56:19 - 12:11:03","影片長度":"00:14:44","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:56:19+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:11:03+08:00","duration":884,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":846,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時56分）謝謝主席，有請內政部次長、銓敘部次長、警政署署長以及消防署署長。"],["主席：請兩位次長及兩位署長。"],["黃委員國昌：四位好，時間的關係就不一一問候。我相信絕大多數臺灣的人民對於不管是軍人、警察、消防的弟兄還有在執行整個海岸安全的海巡署同仁，大家都有一份非常高、非常高的敬意，因為他們的工作承擔了其他人所沒有面臨到的風險，我相信有很多委員今天會提出這個案子也是考量到警消同仁在第一線工作時候的辛勞，以及他們過去這麼長的時間對國家的犧牲跟奉獻，我相信絕大多數臺灣人民跟我的想法是一樣的，我們對於警消、不管是現職還是退休者應該都要給予比較好的待遇，來肯定他們願意冒險犧牲犯難對國家所做的奉獻，我相信這個基本的態度我跟在場四位官員應該都有相同的想法。","在這個基礎上面我們就必須要很務實的來看我們現在所面臨的狀況到底是什麼？因為我在2022年那個時候，警政署在處理有關於總預算的時候所提出來的報告，我看到一個現象，那個現象是說，我們先看員警的部分，他們平均的退休年齡從2015年大概是51歲將近52歲，到了2023年我所拿到最新的data是延長到55.64歲；平均任職年資從過去大概是29.8年到現在已經到34.33年。這個是第一個比較清楚的圖像。","我想先請教一下署長，因為署長做為警察的大家長，應該對於我們第一線警察他們的工作、他們的生活、他們面臨到的狀況應該都很深刻的了解，署長就您的認識，為什麼會出現這樣的變化？"],["張署長榮興：這個退休年齡延後、年資也提高，可能就是退休的人少，也就是他提早退休領的退休的錢會減少，所以他繼續再幹下去。"],["黃委員國昌：好，當出現這樣子的狀況，當然我們是希望整個國家的財務能夠平衡，但在另外一方面我們要考慮到整個警力老化的問題，因為警察冒險犯難在第一線衝鋒陷陣，隨著整個警力的老化，我相信在警察的勤務以及犯罪偵查上都會面臨到很實際的問題跟困難，署長您認同嗎？"],["張署長榮興：認同。"],["黃委員國昌：我們再看第二點，第二個我更擔心的狀況是什麼？就是在預算上面，其實署長可以清楚的看得出來，立法院在預算員額上其實對警察是很支持的，我們從2019年的7萬5,000人到2023年的7萬3,000人，其實數額都不算低，但我們如果看實際的員額就會發現缺額越來越高，這個缺額越來越高的狀況就會擔心，第一個這個缺額的理由是什麼？第二個當這個缺額發生的時候，對於現在警察所承擔公務上面的職責會造成什麼影響？請署長回答。"],["張署長榮興：我覺得這個缺額會造成一些排擠的效用，就是有一些工作在執行面會有一些警力不足，可能在排班上也會接續不下來，這個部分因為……我們也把這個缺額列為一個很重要的未來人力訓練……"],["黃委員國昌：我打開天窗說亮話，現在年輕人越來越不想幹警察，是這樣嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我覺得應該也不能統一這樣講，就是……"],["黃委員國昌：如果不是這樣的話，那缺額的原因大概是什麼？因為光看統計數字，我不是第一線冒險犯難的警察，我沒有辦法回答這個問題，所以我才請教我們警界的大家長署長，按照你的了解，現在這個缺額發生的原因是什麼？因為我們一定要對症下藥。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["黃委員國昌：要知道為什麼現在有這麼多缺額，是這個工作本身的吸引力不夠還是有什麼其他的原因導致缺額越來越高？因為這個趨勢如果繼續下去的話，對整個社會其實都是衝擊。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["黃委員國昌：當然我是絕對贊成壯世代的理念，就是你只要身體還可以的話，你要繼續的報效國家，我們大家都支持；但在另外一方面我們也不得不去考慮到當延後退休的人數越來越多、年齡越來越高，然後另外一邊進來的缺額越來越多，整體警察人力老化的現象對於警察的工作所造成實際的衝擊是什麼？我相信這個是您做為署長一定要全盤去考慮的問題。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才請教署長，你認為這個缺額最大的理由是什麼，我們才有辦法對症下藥，是對於警察的保護不夠、待遇不夠、福利不夠、還是太危險、或是工作勤務太重？他們所承擔的工作勤務事實上已經超過了合理的標準。"],["張署長榮興：一般上大概都是工作上的原因會比較大一點，就是他工作的項目及工作上的壓力、還有家庭的因素、或者是他要轉行，大概這三個方面的層面會比較多一點。"],["黃委員國昌：您做為新任的警政署署長，對於這樣的現象有沒有什麼解決的建議？譬如今天立法院我相信所有的委員都有共識，我們要改善警察的待遇，我們希望這個缺額不要這樣繼續，因為我們給法定員額或者是給預算員額沒有意義嘛，給了員額人還是進不來，我們一定要想辦法對症下藥。"],["張署長榮興：我想就是因為……我上任也有跟同仁講，要讓大家有一個很優質的工作，工作方面只要是重疊性的、重複性的這些勤務業務就要去做一個精準的簡化，不要去做無效的工作。第二個部分就是要讓他有一個優質的環境，讓他很快樂的去上班、平安的回家，這裡面包括他的工作以外還有他的休假休閒，要讓他很認同這一份警察工作、這個職場，我想要從工作的職場氛圍來提升讓同仁對於警察工作的向心力，也讓退休的狀況減少，認同警察這個團體。"],["黃委員國昌：因為時間的關係，我很快要把它做結束了，今天利用質詢的時間我有兩件事情要特別拜託警政署署長還有消防署署長，我要特別拜託兩位的一件事情就是多跟我們年輕的基層員警還有消防的弟兄溝通，傾聽他們的心聲，我覺得這件事情很重要，這樣你才可以真的了解他們的想法跟他們工作上面臨的問題跟困境，才有辦法有效的反映他們的心聲，做為我們立法院不管是在政策上、法案上、預算上非常重要的參考基準，特別是我們在處理年金改革的時候不得不去考慮有關於世代正義的問題，有關於國家財政負擔的問題，我們務實來講一定要考慮到這件事情，但我們在考慮到這件事情、當我們在談到世代正義的時候，兩位署長可不可以承諾多去聽聽基層員警跟消防員、特別是年輕的基層員警跟消防員的心聲？把他們的意見彙整起來以後，讓立法院不僅僅是司法及法制委員會的委員，也讓全體的委員都可以參考，這樣可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛？"],["張署長榮興：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：消防署署長可以嗎？"],["蕭次長煥章：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後我要拜託，因為我相信這些殉職、因公死亡、因公傷殘的數字看起來是冰冷冷的數字，但每一個數字背後都是一個破碎的家庭，我們要怎麼樣提升他們在工作職場上面的保護、安全衛生的保障，我相信這是我們大家要共同努力的。我知道行政院今天針對消防法提出了專章，職業安全衛生法還是用消防法的專章，我們未來討論到法案的時候再進一步討論。","最後一點時間我要拜託一下銓敘部，銓敘部可能是時間比較趕，所以你們今天所提出的口頭補充報告針對不同的版本只有提出一個概算的數字。"],["張次長秋元：我們還沒來得及做精算。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那您需要多久做一個比較細緻的報告？因為我覺得每一個立法委員都願意負責任的去平衡對於警消同仁的保障跟國家財務上面、世代正義上面兩方面的考慮，在立法院審議其實我認為我們要務實理性科學，那個不是用喊價的方式，所以銓敘部什麼時候可以提出比較細緻的報告這件事情就很重要，請教一下銓敘部需要多久？"],["張次長秋元：跟委員報告，的確這個在時間上面會需要比較長，因為這個部分我們不是專業的，我們要委託精算公司……"],["黃委員國昌：大概要多久？"],["張次長秋元：我們回去得要再看預算的經費，因為還要委託。"],["黃委員國昌：大概需要多久？"],["張次長秋元：一次的精算大概期程至少都要半年以上。"],["黃委員國昌：針對警消同仁的部分，在整個精算上面我希望銓敘可以加把勁，稍微從速辦理。"],["張次長秋元：是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我希望我們立法院在最後做決策的時候是有清楚的數字，讓大家可以意識到，那個所得替代率如果我們認為拿槍的、到火場衝鋒陷陣的比起一般的公務人員應該要給他比較好的待遇的話，那我們面臨的財務的衝擊是什麼？因為現在這不是只有0跟1的選擇，0就是完全不要動嘛，那全部就是按照現在委員提出來的版本，比照軍人90%或95%嘛，但是在不同的情境下面設算出來國家的財務負擔到底要多少這件事情可能要特別拜託銓敘部能夠儘快提出這樣子的報告，要不然所有的立法委員在這個事情上面做決策會變得沒有數字的基礎，我覺得會有一點危險。"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，我們可不可以會後回去整個盤了以後再跟……因為我不要隨便在這邊……"],["黃委員國昌：可以啦，因為我相信我提出這樣的請求絕對不是只有我有這樣的需求，我相信有很多立委他們在做決策的時候都是很負責任的在做決策，因此銓敘部這邊的意見跟數字的基礎就會變成立法院最後在處理這個法案的時候重要的基礎，所以還是要特別拜託銓敘部在這件事情上面多努力一點好嗎？"],["張次長秋元：好。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：黃委員，你的意思是？因為銓敘部有一個口頭報告說明，你要的是超過這個的……"],["黃委員國昌：對啦，他的那個數字太粗了啦！我跟主席報告一下，你比較細緻一點的來看，現在每年多少人、平均退休的年資是多少，然後平均，他們去計算那個基數的數額是多少，你有這個東西乘出來就會有一個最後的總數嘛，有最後的總數以後，按照不同的情境，譬如現在的所得替代率降到今年是降到天花板70%嘛。"],["張次長秋元：是67.5%。"],["黃委員國昌：67.5%，如果以今年的數字算起來，在67.5的情況之下每年的支出大概是多少？如果我們要往上拉、停留在現在、還是繼續讓它往下跑對國家財務的衝擊到底是什麼？因為老實講，沒有這些數字在做決策其實都會有一些危險，所以我才要特別拜託銓敘部，因為data全部都在你們手上，data在你們手上你們算才會比較快嘛，你們如果真的覺得算data就是很複雜的話，那沒有關係，我今天承諾，你會後把data給我，我來幫你算，就是你把所有原始的data都給我，然後我去找人來……"],["張次長秋元：那個有個資問題，我們來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊，你就全部去識別化嘛，你把所有的data都給我，我來幫你算。"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，我們來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["張次長秋元：謝謝。"],["主席：銓敘部這邊是講多久內要處理？"],["張次長秋元：我們會後再跟委員報告，因為我們還有預算的問題、還有委託。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.606593750000002,"end":21.765968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.48784375,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.765968750000003,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.73471875,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.25721875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.43409375,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.18471875,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.34909375,"end":44.665343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.25596875,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.955968750000004,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.65971875,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.392843750000004,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.29909375,"end":67.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.10471875,"end":70.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.83846875,"end":86.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.54909375000001,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.72846875,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.41534375,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.89096875000001,"end":123.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.89346875000001,"end":129.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.44534375,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.26284375,"end":140.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.92034375,"end":143.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.76784375,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.83909375000002,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":181.33596875,"end":183.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":183.29346875000002,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.82346875000002,"end":193.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.92471875,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.02596875,"end":194.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.57846875,"end":224.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.38409375,"end":230.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.08346875,"end":268.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":269.17034375000003,"end":284.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":284.86409375,"end":286.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.97346875,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.02346875,"end":296.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":292.87971875,"end":293.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.43159375000005,"end":298.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":298.44846875,"end":303.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.49846875000003,"end":307.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.47659375,"end":340.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.34909375,"end":340.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.50096875,"end":355.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.25034375,"end":351.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.68409375000005,"end":361.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.56096875000003,"end":372.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.98534375,"end":386.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.63721875000005,"end":392.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.59409375,"end":396.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":397.72409375,"end":414.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.25721875000005,"end":437.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.90159375,"end":423.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.69471875000005,"end":423.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.83596875,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":438.96659375,"end":450.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":450.67784375,"end":455.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":455.28471875,"end":468.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":469.30784375,"end":471.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":472.15971875,"end":497.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.52284375000005,"end":497.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.97846875000005,"end":497.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":497.99534375,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.02909375,"end":506.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":506.82096875,"end":507.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.19221875000005,"end":514.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.29659375,"end":515.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","s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我們一定要對症下藥嘛對"},{"start":324.614,"end":324.674,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":352.063,"end":372.05,"text":"在另外一方面我們也不得不去考慮到說當年後退休的人數越來越多年齡越來越高然後另外一邊進來的缺額越來越多那對於整體整個警察人力老化的現象對於警察的工作所造成實際的衝擊是什麼我相信"},{"start":372.91,"end":375.291,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":397.765,"end":413.712,"text":"一般上大概都是工作上的原因會比較大一點就是因為他工作的項目還有工作上的一個壓力還有家庭的因素或者是他要去做轉行大概這三個方面的層面會比較多一點"},{"start":415.505,"end":436.863,"text":"作為新任的警察署長對於這樣的現象你有沒有什麼解決的建議?例如說我們今天立法院我相信所有的委員都有共識我們要改善給警察的待遇我們希望這個缺額不要這樣繼續因為我們給法定原額或者是給預算原額沒有意義給了原額人還是進"},{"start":437.944,"end":441.467,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第1次聯席會議"},{"start":462.501,"end":464.322,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":486.973,"end":513.261,"text":"來提升讓同仁對於警察工作的相信力也讓這些如果這些退休的這個狀況讓他來做個減少認同這個警察這個團體因為時間的關係我很快要把它做結束了今天利用職學的時間我有兩件事情要特別拜託我們的警察署的署長還有消防署的署長我要特別拜託兩位的一件事情就是說"},{"start":514.381,"end":541.266,"text":"多跟我們年輕的基層員警還有消防的弟兄溝通請聽他們的心聲我覺得這件事情很重要這樣你才可以真的瞭解他們的想法跟他們工作上面面臨的問題跟困境才有辦法有效的反映他們的心聲作為我們立法院不管是在政策上、法案上、預算上面非常重要參考的基準特別是"},{"start":541.886,"end":542.026,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":560.695,"end":589.095,"text":"多去聽聽基層的員警跟消防員特別是年輕的基層員警跟消防員的心聲把他們的意見彙整起來了以後讓我們立法院不僅僅是司法法制委員會的委員讓全體的委員都可以參考這樣可以嗎可以消防署署長可以嗎可以好那最後我要拜託因為我相信這些殉職、因公死亡、因公傷殘的數字"},{"start":591.598,"end":611.556,"text":"看起來是冰冷冷的數字啦但每一個數字背後都是一個破碎的家庭我們怎麼樣提升他們在工作職場上面的保護安全衛生的保障我相信這我們大家要共同努力我知道行政院今天針對消防法提出了有關於專章嘛"},{"start":612.576,"end":634.854,"text":"職業安全衛生法還是要用消防法的專章我們未來討論到法案的時候再進一步討論但最後一點時間我要拜託一下全序部全序部你們可能是時間比較趕所以你們今天所提出的口頭補充報告針對不同的版本針對不同的版本你們只有提出一個概算的數目我們還沒有來得及做盡頭"},{"start":635.675,"end":651.266,"text":"那您需要多久做一個比較細緻的報告因為我覺得每個立法委員大家都願意負責任的去平衡對於我們警消同仁的保障跟國家財務上面世代正義上面兩方面的考慮那"},{"start":652.327,"end":666.676,"text":"我們在立法院審議其實我認為我們要務實理性科學那個不是用喊價的方式所以權敘部什麼時候可以提出比較細緻的報告這件事情就很重要來請教一下權敘部需要多久"},{"start":667.93,"end":690.348,"text":"跟委員報告的確在這個上面會時間會需要比較長因為我們不是專業的這個部分我們要委託精算的公司那大概要多久?大概需要多久?一次的精算大概期整至少都要半年以上"},{"start":691.007,"end":691.447,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":716.161,"end":729.724,"text":"到火場上面衝鋒陷陣的應該要比一般的公務人員要給他比較好的待遇的話那我們面臨的財務的衝擊是什麼因為現在這不是只有0跟1的選擇0就是完全不要動嘛"},{"start":730.697,"end":754.487,"text":"那全部就是按照現在委員提出來的版本比照軍人90或95%嘛但是在不同的情境下面射算出來國家的財務負擔到底要多少這件事情可能要特別拜託全序部能夠盡快的提出這樣子的一個報告出來要不然的話所有的立法委員在這個事情上面做決策會變得沒有數字的基礎我覺得會有一點危險啊"},{"start":756.575,"end":771.665,"text":"判會委員我們可不可以會後再跟回去等個盤了以後再跟...可以啦因為我相信我提出這樣的請求絕對不是只有我有這樣的需求啦有很多立委我相信他們在做決策的時候都是很負責任的"},{"start":772.546,"end":786.731,"text":"在作決策。」那因此選區部這邊的意見跟數字的基礎就會變成立法院最後在處理這個法案的時候重要的基準所以還是要特別拜託選區部在這件事情上面多努力一點好嗎好好謝謝"},{"start":788.139,"end":805.628,"text":"黃偉你的意思是因為程序部有一個口頭報告說明是你要的是超過這個的對啦,他在說你太粗啦就是說你比較我跟主席報告一下你比較細緻一點的來看現在每年多少人"},{"start":806.488,"end":806.588,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":831.91,"end":852.971,"text":"六十七點五的情況之下每年的支出大概會多少如果我們要往上拉停留在現在還是繼續讓他往下跑對國家財務的衝擊到底是什麼因為我老實講沒有這些數字在做決策其實都會有一些危險所以我才要特別拜託"},{"start":854.943,"end":855.503,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"153988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0eaf5052d8a54a9bd560592432c08898e1d141634ad16f55fdef7ba9b4f84173b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:57:04 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12:04:07","影片長度":"00:07:03","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:57:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:04:07+08:00","duration":423,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1230,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時57分）謝謝主席，有請原民會曾主委和客委會古主委。"],["主席：請曾主委和古主委，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：我先請教曾主委，本席在擔任臺南縣議員和臺南市議員的期間，都非常關心和致力於西雅拉族身分認定這個議題，當時擔任臺南市長的賴清德，其實他也積極的為族人們奔走遞狀來提行政訴訟。我想多年過去了，憲法法庭也做出111憲判字第17號判決，根據判決的意旨，有關機關應於判決宣示之日起3年內，原住民的認定要件要予以檢討並修法，重點是「修法」。本席要強調的是，血緣是與生俱來的，身分認同這件事情也有關文化建構和傳承，但是歷史上的錯誤或是國家的不積極作為，使得流著原住民血液的人沒有辦法在法律上被認定身分，我覺得這件事情是非常遺憾的。","好，在去年相關的行政訴訟中，行政法院以主管機關未完成修法而駁回西拉雅族人身分註記的申請，雖然判決於法是沒有違誤，可是西拉雅族是先於憲法存在著，怎麼能任憑憲法下不完備的法律，就使他們喪失民主國家應有的身分認定與權利？所以既然憲法法庭已經在2年前做出判決，也明確的宣示原住民身分權是我國人民的概括基本權之一，根據本辦向原民會進一步的瞭解，目前要採取擬具平埔專法的方式來回應這個憲法判決，以專法的形式也更符合平埔族群的需求，保障平埔族人的權益，也與現行原住民族權益有所區隔。同時，我想採取雙軌模式來逐步完善平埔族群的權益體系，這也可以有效的控制國家的預算及可負擔的幅度，也可以確保資源配置的合理性，請問主委，你覺得我這樣說正確嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，很正確，謝謝你。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK！賴總統去年主持原轉會會議時曾表示，要依據各原住民族的客觀需求及國家資源分配的原則，來回復平埔族群獲得民族身分的相關權利。所以原民會雙軌制這個規劃，因為考量到明年10月修法期限就要到了，所以原民會是不是有什麼樣的規劃？目前你們有什麼樣的規劃？或者，你們能不能在3個月內給本辦一份詳細的，就是有關設立專法的方向和規劃？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會，目前我們在做的是，我們要先把族群的身分認定好，至於設立專法這個部分，現在我們內部已經在討論，也會和西拉雅族人討論，等資料整理出來之後，我會跟委員報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，我想拜託你，3個月內是不是可以給本辦有關你們設立專法的方向，包括有關身分認定這部分的具體規劃，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝！您請回，我請教古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：林委員好！"],["林委員宜瑾：主委，你過去任職臺南市客委會主委，積極擘畫很多有關客家文化的活動，並透過走讀、騎腳踏車、巡迴等方式來增加客家的能見度，這點本席真的要大大的給你肯定。你今天接任客委會主委，這個攸關全國客家事務，上周五在客語社區營造計畫交流觀摩會中，有一個分享者提及，客家人正面臨數位失落的困境，也就是在數位時代中，官方並沒有一套打字系統可以打出客語，導致很積極想要推廣客家文化的這些朋友們，在輸入上都還得用注音打出客語的漢字，甚至還有沒辦法顯字的這個問題。我想文化跟語言的傳播，文字是一個很重要的載體，所以如果能增加客家文化的能見度，我想語言的數位使用就顯得相當重要，相比於台語有「PhahTaigi」的手機輸入法，客語就沒辦法透過手機拼音來打字，目前是沒有。據瞭解客委會已經推出電腦跟平板的客語輸入法，可是沒有相對應地輸入手機來使用，這部分不曉得你有沒有什麼樣的想法？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，客委會目前已經在進行手機用客語拼音的方式輸入，來解決這個問題，所以差不多在9月底我們就可以用手機來做客語拼音以及客語輸入法，9月底會完成，以後我們就可以用手機來做客語輸入法，剛剛看到的「𠊎講話」，只要輸入進去就可以顯現出來。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，大約多久呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：今年9月底。"],["林委員宜瑾：今年9月？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，因為這個事情確實有很多客家人在關心，也謝謝主委積極在處理，期待9月我們就有手機的輸入方式可以輸入客語。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員。主委，我想請問，你們是語音輸入法嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有客語語音還有拼音，兩種方式都可以。"],["主席：兩種方式都有，好，謝謝。","繼續我們請林德福委員、林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","林思銘、林思銘，林思銘委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","伍麗華、伍麗華，伍麗華委員不在。","莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄，莊瑞雄委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯，謝衣鳯委員不在。","盧縣一、盧縣一，盧縣一委員不在。","請陳瑩委員質詢。謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主席……"],["主席：對不起，我們等陳瑩委員質詢結束之後我再給你時間好嗎？對不起，因為剛剛已經唸完你的名字了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，因為我從那邊趕過來，看到還有好多人。"],["主席：對，應該要看一下現場，沒有委員在的話，助理可能要先告知你。不過沒關係，我會給你時間。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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。"},{"start":155.154,"end":184.065,"text":"國家預算的負擔也增長它的幅度,也確保資源配置的合理性。」請問主委你覺得我這樣說正確嗎?是!是!很正確!謝謝你!賴總統去年主持原轉會議時也曾表示說要依據各原住民族的客觀需求國家資源分配為原則來回復平埔族群獲得民族身份的相關權利所以我想原住民"},{"start":184.725,"end":203.406,"text":"原民會的雙軌制規劃考量到明年10月我們就修法的期限就要到了那原民會是不是可以有什麼樣的規劃你目前有什麼樣的規劃或者說你們在三個月內給本辦一個詳細的立專法的方向的這個規劃具體規劃"},{"start":206.3,"end":223.07,"text":"會,那我們目前在做的是先把這個族群認定先把認定好還有身份也把它認定好那至於立專法這個部分我們會我們現在已經在內部內部做討論也會跟希臘雅族的這個族人做討論讓他整理出來之後會跟委員做報告"},{"start":229.475,"end":236.184,"text":"三個月內給本辦立專法方向,包括身份認定部分的規劃?"},{"start":245.959,"end":260.218,"text":"主委,我想過去你任職台南市客委會主委,積極破壞很多客家文化相關的活動,並透過走讀、騎腳踏車、巡迴的方式來增加能見度,這一點本席真的要給你很大大的肯定。"},{"start":260.879,"end":288.205,"text":"我想今天來接這個客委會主委是有關於全國這個客家事務我想在上週五有一個客語社區營造計劃交流的觀謀會中有一個分享者他提及說客家人正面臨了數位失落的困境也就是說在數位時代中並沒有一套可以打出客語打字的官方打字系統那他導致"},{"start":289.065,"end":315.506,"text":"很積極想要推廣這個客家文化的這些朋友們他在輸入上都還得用注音打出客語的漢字甚至還有沒有辦法顯字的這個問題那我想說文化跟語言其實如果要傳播文字是一個很重要的載體所以如果能增加客家文化的這個能見度我想語言的數位使用就顯得相當的重要那相比於台語"},{"start":316.787,"end":336.406,"text":"有那個帕代義手機的這個輸入法那客語沒有辦法透過手機拼音來打字目前是沒有那據瞭解我想客委會已經有推出電腦跟平板的客語輸入法可是沒有相對應的這個輸入手機來使用那這部分不曉得你有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":337.367,"end":339.389,"text":"和議員報告：合約費目前已經在進行：數多月做得用合法：或是便宜的方式：擔議費：來作有的問題：來解決有的問題：故所以參與到9月底：我們都可以用數多月："},{"start":355.18,"end":365.945,"text":"來做合法評驗和合法的信任法,做得來,經驗,經驗大就可以完成。」所以以後,我們就可以用這個書籍來做信任法。所以大家看到,我講法,我講法只要信任去"},{"start":378.291,"end":395.182,"text":"大約多久?今年九月因為這個事情確實是有很多的客家人在關心那也謝謝主委有積極在處理那期待九月我們就有手機的輸入方式可以來輸入客語"},{"start":405.909,"end":422.802,"text":"有客語語音還有拼音用拼音做的兩種方式都做的好謝謝好繼續我們請林德福林德福林德福委員不在林柱英林柱英林柱英委員不在"}]}},{"id":"153987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0ef30492086f1a829c65fab1c545da5d01d141634ad16f55fdb89229dbbe34e855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:02:08 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﹏﹏"},{"start":231.75,"end":232.71,"text":"次長您的專業就是AI。我想在現在AI時代您認為語言還重要嗎?"},{"start":256.141,"end":267.75,"text":"語言你是說我覺得語言還是很重要的語言很重要但其實現在AI已經可以取代了很多的語言的翻譯啊等等的那所以在大學裡面有必要去實施全面化的這個全語教學嗎?"},{"start":274.656,"end":295.563,"text":"但是你們現在訂了相當高的一個比例至少未來要差不多25%的這個課程全部到全英語化但是呢我覺得在AI時代其實真的必須要去思考這個賴清德總統的這樣的雙語政策是不是有去實施的必要那對大學來講其實已經造成很多的這個學生在學習的時候出現了很多的問題"},{"start":296.203,"end":320.947,"text":"﹗"},{"start":321.187,"end":334.691,"text":"大學然後讓大學老師承受很多其實是無礙於教學進步的這樣的一個做法這是學校來申請我們並沒有強迫但是如果你們沒有這個計畫的話他就不會來申請你們可以把這個計畫錢用在更有效的更有意義的地方而不是透過這個計畫你們要去實驗這個政策因為現在大學就像我剛回到一開始講的高教"},{"start":349.076,"end":349.716,"text":"主席主席主席"}]}},{"id":"153986","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153986","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba01d66677e717c06a779c37d5c632653371d141634ad16f55f37e0100f850ec7665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:55:32 - 12:02:46","影片長度":"00:07:14","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:55:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T12:02:46+08:00","duration":434,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時55分）主席，麻煩請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，植物診療師非常的重要，但是本席有另外一個議題也要跟你就教，就是所謂的獸醫師、動物醫師也相當重要。剛剛我們很多委員都在詢問植物治療師、診療師到底什麼時候……如果法通過之後，你說3個月內可以出來考試相關的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：相關的規範。"],["洪委員孟楷：相關的規範？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：預計什麼時候可以上線來做考試？"],["陳部長駿季：我們規範出來以後，因為考選部那邊我們會溝通啦！我們個人的期待，就是農業部的期待，大概是半年。"],["洪委員孟楷：今年年底有辦法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是希望在年底，就是半年內能夠有機會，因為很多人在那邊等了，很多人在那邊等了！"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那一樣，很多人也在等2021年通過獸醫師法的修法第三十條，增設動物醫事助理，那時候動物醫事助理最主要就是我們希望能夠解決現在獸醫院，它可能有很多的醫療行為是沒有辦法讓獸醫師一個人來做處理。"],["陳部長駿季：希望有些助理。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，所以說希望有助理，就如同我們人醫有護士一樣，動物醫事助理就等於是獸醫的護士來協助做一些醫療的行為，但是2021年的5月修法通過，到目前2024年，3年過去了，動物醫事助理的制度，現在怎麼還沒有出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是可以請防檢署這邊做一個說明？"],["洪委員孟楷：是，簡單說明一下，因為本席一直在追啊！3年了。"],["邱署長垂章：是，謝謝委員，我們是在112年3月發布動物醫事助理認證機構的認定。"],["洪委員孟楷：去年3月核可認定辦法終於出來，已經2年了，從去年3月到現在6月，1年3個月又過去了。"],["邱署長垂章：是，因為我們要對它做認證，所以同年的12月它就開始送件，然後我們在112年12月跟113年2月就召開審查會，我們今年113年的5月就核定獸醫師公會全聯會是一個核可的認證機構。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！這一些本席都已經有詢問過，也都瞭解了，我現在只是想請教獸醫師公會聯合會現在也研擬要開班準備到各區辦說明會，什麼時候可以考試？"],["邱署長垂章：8月的時候我們就可以受理報名，因為全聯會在這個月的19日跟26日要辦理說明會，讓大家知道怎麼去做，預計8月的時候就受理報名，然後學員完成了216小時的課程以後，通過考試，就可以取得認證，今年應該是……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在我們的規劃方向是只要授課完畢，通過全聯會所舉辦的考試，是不是？"],["邱署長垂章：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：就可以取得這個認證資格，就可以符合獸醫師法第三十條動物醫事助理的資格，對不對？"],["邱署長垂章：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：初期規劃會有多少名額？"],["邱署長垂章：要看報名人數啦！應該有幾百人，應該是沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，好，部長，麻煩。部長，本席為什麼會那麼重視？因為相對來說動物、植物都很重要，我想這也是我們未來的趨勢跟現在社會的一個常態。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：很多人都認為獸醫師過去大家也都希望能夠有合格認定，也因此才會想說，既然動物醫事助理有這樣的一個制度，很多獸醫師在每年獸醫師節或獸醫師公會邀請我的時候，我都會講我們2021年就修法通過了，但是在3年的時間這部分一直沒有出來，到目前為止，全省北、中、南、東那麼多的獸醫診所或是獸醫院都有這樣的一個需求，所以剛剛有講到可能不只幾百人啊！我覺得可能大家的需求會多，還有現在全聯會他們規劃的是有農學院的學校提供場地來上課，分別是臺灣大學、中興大學、嘉義大學跟屏東科技大學，看得出來應該就是北、中、南的一個狀況，可是本席還是呼籲跟建議，應該要更擴大一點，至少縣市的部分，如果說能夠有一個縣市來配合，這樣子對於地方上的這一些需求比較有所幫助，部長能夠同意嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我非常同意，特別是對委員感到抱歉，就是112年3月發布以後，這麼久的時間了，還沒有特殊的進展，雖然現在8月才開始報名，但總算開始了，我想以後我會針對這個案子去做專案列管，因為我覺得一個法的目的是要解決一些問題，結果法通過了以後，後端的執行面拉太長的話，就失去當初我們委員大家努力讓法通過的一個目標，所以這個部分我以農業部的身分，我會深刻地檢討相關後續的推動作為，這是第一點。","第二點的部分，就是會積極地跟有相關這些訓練場所連繫，場所比較好解決，但師資的部分，甚至於我現在想到的是不是有一部分是可以用線上的概念去處理，因為現在在數位化的時代，其實很多線上的，因為你最後還是會通過考試嘛！所以我想我會用專案的方式，請我們督導次長去做一個比較完善的規劃，而不是讓全聯會自己去設計遊戲規則，包括我們的獸醫所，也可以當作一個訓練的機構，這個部分我想我們會再努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長很正面的回應，本席從2021年就推動這樣的一個修法，本席也很重視，其實動物部分我們都必須要關注，所以我其實已經不只一次講過了，動物醫事助理的制度出來之後，本席也會第一個報名，我也希望能夠變成是第一個動物醫事助理制度出來之後，我可以拿到相關身分的人，也許未來我不一定去獸醫院服務，但是我也很希望能夠來學習相關的知識，並且取得這樣的一個身分，所以216個小時的上課，我也一定會過去參與。"],["陳部長駿季：我也期待委員可以去植物診療師相關的考試。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，就等那個出來啦！好不好？但是至少動物醫事助理，我事先宣告，我也希望今年年底之前，動物醫事助理跟植物診療師這兩個部分都真的能夠推動，並且能夠讓民眾來報考，能夠產生出我們的動物醫事助理跟植物診療師，有沒有把握？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我現在用專案列管，會追他們的一個時程。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，感謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，非常感謝洪孟楷委員，他對於這個法案是非常的積極，因為有很多委員也都很關心，所以剛剛我們也非常高興聽到部長說會專案列管，剛剛特別講到，像線上上課，這個應該都符合現代的時勢，這個是非常重要，因為很多大專院校，甚至跨國，都是用線上上課，實體上課、線上上課，讓大家隨意去選擇，我覺得這個方法非常好，我們也請你把詳細方案給我們經濟委員會一份資料、本席一份資料，我們一起來推動，謝謝。","接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在。","請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在。","好，登記發言的委員除了不在場之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。有委員林岱樺委員、張啓楷委員（詳6月12日會議紀錄之書面質詢資料）所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢以及未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一周之內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","鄭天財Sra 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那時候動物醫師助理最主要就是我們希望能夠解決現在的這個獸醫院,它可能有很多的醫療行為是沒有辦法讓獸醫師一個人來去做處理。對,所以說希望有助理就如同我們人醫有護士一樣,動物醫師助理就等於是獸醫的護士來協助做一些醫療的行為。"},{"start":97.097,"end":112.81,"text":"但是2021年的5月修法通過到目前2024年3年過去了動物醫師助理的制度現在怎麼還沒有出來我是不是可以請防險署這邊做一個說明簡單說明一下因為本市一直在追啊3年欸"},{"start":113.47,"end":131.341,"text":"是。謝謝委員。我們是在112年3月是發布這個動物醫事助理的認證機構的認定。沒錯。去年的3月合可認定辦法終於出來。是。那已經兩年了。那從去年3月到現在6月的時間一年三個月又過去了。是。"},{"start":131.761,"end":150.135,"text":"因為我們要對他做認證所以他同年的12月他就開始送件然後我們在112年12月跟113年2月就召開審查會那我們今年113年的5月我們就合訂了他獸醫師公會全聯會是一個合可的認證機構"},{"start":151.756,"end":175.936,"text":"這些本席也都已經有詢問過都了解我現在只是想請教獸醫師公會全國聯合會現在也研擬要開班準備到各區辦說明會那什麼時候可以考試8月的時候我們就可以受理報名因為全聯會在這個月的19號跟26號要開一個辦理這個說明會讓大家知道怎麼去做那預計8月的時候就受理報名"},{"start":177.698,"end":202.256,"text":"閱讀者完成了216小時的課程以後通過考試就可以取得認證那今年應該...所以現在是我們的規劃方向是只要授課完畢通過考試通過全聯會所舉辦的考試是不是就可以取得這個認證資格就可以符合我們獸醫師法30條的動物醫師助理的資格對不對那初期規劃會有多少名額"},{"start":204.262,"end":208.735,"text":"呃要看要看報名啦應該有幾百人應該是沒問題來好部長麻煩"},{"start":210.258,"end":238.74,"text":"議長,本席為什麼會那麼重視?因為相對來說動物植物都很重要我想這也是我們未來的趨勢跟現在社會的一個常態那很多人都認為是說獸醫師過去大家也都希望說能夠合格認定也因此才會想說既然動物醫師助理有這樣的一個制度很多獸醫師每年那個獸醫師節或獸醫師公會的時候也都邀請我的時候我都會講是說我們2021年就修法通過了但在三年的時間一直沒有出來那"},{"start":239.701,"end":256.954,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":257.273,"end":285.152,"text":"有農學院的學校來提供場地來上課分別是台灣大學、中興大學、嘉義大學跟屏東科技大學看得出來應該就是北、中、南的一個狀況可是本席還是呼籲跟建議應該要更擴大一點至少縣市的部分如果說能夠有一個縣市能夠來配合你這樣子會對於地方上的這些需求比較有所幫助部長能夠同意嗎?"},{"start":285.692,"end":311.693,"text":"我想非常同意齁,特別是對委員趕到抱歉就是112年3月發布以後這麼多時間還沒有特殊的進展雖然說現在8月才開始報名,總算開始啦齁我想以後我會針對這個案子去做專案列管因為我覺得一個法的目的是要解決一些問題結果法通過了以後你的後端的執行面拉太長的話就失去當初我們委員大家努力讓法通過的一個目標啦齁"},{"start":312.193,"end":335.486,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":335.486,"end":361.971,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":362.011,"end":390.041,"text":"好 謝謝部長很正面的回應本席因為從2021年就推動這樣的一個修法那本席也很重視其實動物的一個部分我們都一直要關注所以我其實已經不只一次講過了動物醫師助理的制度出來之後本席也會我也會第一個報名我也希望能夠變成是第一個動物醫師助理的制度出來之後我可以拿到相關身份的人也許未來我不一定"},{"start":391.102,"end":393.484,"text":"bedingt 216 個小時的上課我也一定會過去參與我也期待委員可以上那個植物診療師的"},{"start":407.901,"end":430.409,"text":" 那就等那個出來啦好不好但是我至少動物醫師助理我是先宣告那我也希望今年年底之前動物醫師助理跟植物診療師這兩個部分都真的能夠推動並且能夠讓民眾來報考能夠產生我們動物醫師助理跟植物診療師有沒有把握我現在用專案列管就會追他們的一個時程好感謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba02a20ff7111de49aac65fab1c545da5d01d141634ad16f55f49fd245485fe178c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:56:25 - 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次長委員好次長我就就你的口頭報告有幾個問題來跟你就教一下其實你了解為什麼現在很多的企業都說他們在缺人才除了少子化以外他們也說他們在缺人才為什麼"},{"start":32.11,"end":33.711,"text":"這就是我今天要請教次長的"},{"start":58.188,"end":64.608,"text":"你洋洋灑灑然後有做了這麼完整的口頭報告可是這其中有一個部分"},{"start":65.683,"end":89.461,"text":"我們要怎麼讓這些學生能夠被訓練成為這些老闆所需要的對象那才能把他combine在一起嘛那如果沒有的話永遠這個問題還是存在即使我們投注了再多的資源一樣沒有辦法去解決我們人才的短缺都不要談少子化"},{"start":90.462,"end":103.624,"text":"少子化是後面我們整個國家的問題可是就現階段我們有很多的年輕朋友找不到工作可是也有好多老闆找不到人才"},{"start":104.981,"end":123.751,"text":"這到底是怎麼一回事這才是我們今天要去討論的就算我們現在有一些平台各部會然後去做溝通協調經濟部然後教育部然後各個產業界然後把它匯集進來可是問題還是沒解決啊"},{"start":124.191,"end":138.052,"text":"跟委員報告因為我之前因為這10年我都在新創業界所以我其實廣泛收集業界這些創辦人們CEO們的建議他們都認為關鍵會在於說台灣的學生在大學就學期間"},{"start":139.273,"end":146.035,"text":"在大二、大三的時候他沒有機會先去公司,你要知道公司是什麼狀況需要什麼能力去碰觸到實體面所以這就是為什麼我們在專報裡面的這個第三點我們希望通過接下來三年的時間在大學開始塑造這個大二升大三這個暑假就覺得說我應該去找公司做intern這樣子的文化"},{"start":168.203,"end":191.792,"text":"您所說的就是利用我們在校的期間可能到業界去做一些實習那重點是你有沒有辦法訓練出這些業界要的人才否則如果你去實習一樣他感受不到說這些就是他們要的人才"},{"start":192.731,"end":215.863,"text":"那變成是兩個部分沒有交集啊沒錯我們讓了我們學生去實質去碰觸到實體面他可能只是會覺得這到底是不是我的興趣我是不是要再去學第二專才可能是這個樣子可是我們今天企業界你所訓練的人才是不是他要的"},{"start":217.065,"end":239.212,"text":"那這個會不會這個平台可以接的起來是其實是現在其實最關鍵的我們在業界所聽到都是如此就是說今天大學生也好不論是一般生或是技職學校的學生今天到了職場發現跟他們所需要的有落差"},{"start":240.179,"end":257.739,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":258.26,"end":283.144,"text":"打斷了他原本的興趣因為去教現場的事實上不是這樣啊他過去對於這樣的一個環境是有很多的憧憬結果回到這個實習面之後他怎麼跟他所感覺的完全不一樣所以在專業領域跟實習面的領域有落差之後反而讓他打退堂鼓"},{"start":284.76,"end":305.511,"text":"這個是我們現在其實很重要的關鍵次長我今天只是把問題提出來我們有期待我們不希望說今天一個新政府的團隊還是一樣曾經在過去沒有把問題找出來因為這兩塊其實真的落差很大"},{"start":306.766,"end":306.966,"text":"好 謝謝陳亭妃委員"}]}},{"id":"153984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0684d8a997d98ecae560592432c08898e1d141634ad16f55f5826011f50adb47c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:47:45 - 11:56:58","影片長度":"00:09:13","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:47:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:56:58+08:00","duration":553,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1165,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時47分）謝謝召委、立委同仁、原民會和各單位的行政長官，有請曾主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["林委員倩綺：曾主委你好！你在5月20日就任，但是你在5月17日就來拜會本席，本席在跟你的對話裡給了你一項功課，你還記得吧！"],["曾主任委員智勇：記得。"],["林委員倩綺：這個功課現在做得怎樣，你要不要跟本席做一個回應？"],["曾主任委員智勇：主要是針對文化的部分，就是部落跟原住民的文化要怎麼樣做得更好？你還有問到博物館的問題，我們也希望博物館的進度能夠儘快，等它有了進度之後，未來我們會持續的推動原住民博物館與國外的交流，大概是講到這個。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝主委！本席早上也看了一下幾位委員對你的質詢，我不知道該怎麼樣繼續下去，你連本席在5月17日跟你講的那最重要的一點，而且這點你還列在今天的業務報告裡面，就是最前面的這個問題。本席應該跟你說過，在原民會所有的業務裡面，這一點是本席最重視的事情，你剛才完全沒有提到，不知道當時你有聽進本席講的話嗎？還是你忘記這個功課是什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，可能是沒有……"],["林委員倩綺：你剛才講的是本席在內政委員會有提到的事，我相信你的幕僚做了很多功課，但是那一天你來拜會時，本席有跟你講到原民會最重要的一件事情，這也是本席最關心的，你還記得嗎？我已經跟你提示了哦！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是不是有關平埔族的事情？"],["林委員倩綺：我剛才已經很清楚的提示了，是，是有關平埔族這個部分，請問你的功課做得如何？從早上開會到現在，中間休息了5分鐘，事實上，在一些委員的質詢裡面，本席也聽到了一些回應，但是本席期待休息的這5分鐘你有一些惡補，如果沒有惡補的話，我想你的答案還是會接近本席早上聽到一些委員對你的質詢。還是你這邊有什麼要補充的嗎？就是有關平埔族這件事情。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我要補充的就是，跟委員報告，當時憲法法庭的判決有一點很重要……"],["林委員倩綺：這樣好了，主委，我的時間很短，你講的這個部分我5月17日已經聽到了，其實早上有些委員已經很具體的問過你了，假設你在推動平埔族群這個議題上，請問你知道明年原民會的預算是多少嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：125億元。"],["林委員倩綺：有關平埔族方面的業務推動？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，平埔族這個身分……"],["林委員倩綺：你只要回答本席明年平埔族相關的經費是多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果按照我們所預知的是98萬人的話，光是教育預算就要增加90億元，那還只是教育的部分。"],["林委員倩綺：98萬到90億哦！什麼意思？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果只是解決他們的教育問題……"],["林委員倩綺：未來就要90億元？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，就是增加90億元。"],["林委員倩綺：明年就要90億元嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果來登記的或者是平埔族全部是98萬人的話……"],["林委員倩綺：主委，你有好多的未知，我建議你先把早上幾位委員所提到的，就是有關平埔族這個區塊土地問題、人數問題、文化問題和教育問題，各要多少經費先盤點一下，然後你必須要知道，明年你們在平埔族群這個部分要支出或支應多少，然後未來這些問題總共需要多少的額度？你必須要去瞭解一下你本身對於這個負擔，假設像你剛才講的，我只是用你講的話哦！我先不要講它是否正確。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["林委員倩綺：就從你知道的明年是9萬，然後未來要98億，我不知道你有沒有口誤，如果平埔族群的教育經費會從九十幾萬元到98億元，請問現在原民會的預算將如何承載這樣的經費？我不知道你有沒有口誤，我先講，我不知道你有沒有口誤，早上這些委員問你的這幾個問題，你對經費都沒有概念。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，98萬是人口數，如果有增加到98萬個人口數，那光是……"],["林委員倩綺：你是講98萬個人口數嘛！不是教育經費從98萬元變成98億元。"],["曾主任委員智勇：如果是98萬人口數，光是教育經費，我們估算差不多就要90億元。"],["林委員倩綺：好，90億元，請問，光是這一點你要如何承載跟處理？現在要不要用10秒鐘跟本席回應？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為這個超過我們的預算很多，而且這樣原民會現在做的事情就完全沒有辦法做，所以我們當然要請求院裡面來協助和幫忙。"],["林委員倩綺：現在你們對於要如何協助和幫忙有概念了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是請求預算在編列時，額度外的需要我們要提出來。"],["林委員倩綺：你知道禁伐補償要尋相關的方式來做處理，就是額度外的預算。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們也是要請求院裡面來協助啊！"],["林委員倩綺：好的，你現在終於聽清楚了，所以你應該可以試圖的、努力的請求院裡面來協助，對不起！是原民會額度外的預算，這點是本席非常關心的。但是平埔族的功課，在你來拜會時，本席講過這是很重要的一件事情，而且這也是你們今天業務報告所列的第一項，除了你當天講的有關憲法的內容，本席並沒有看到你們有提出相對的具體作法，本席希望這部分的功課你能夠更具體，早上許多委員的指教基本上都已經幫你把答案及未來的走向給匡列好了，所以你只要依照這個走向好好的去做應該就會有一些解答。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["林委員倩綺：第二點，我可不可以請主計處？"],["主席：副主計長。"],["林委員倩綺：副主計長，不好意思，我想請教一下，原民會過去的禁伐補償費用，就是你們積欠原民會的這個經費你們要怎麼處理？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：113年我們已經有撥補21億元，就是透過原民基金來執行。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們有用到原住民族發展基金嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：不是，全部都是由公務預算撥補，只是透過基金來發放。"],["林委員倩綺：由公務預算撥補，請問現在綜合發展基金剩多少錢？主委。"],["宋處長麗茹：我來跟委員報告。"],["林委員倩綺：給我一個總數就好了，因為主席站起來了。"],["宋處長麗茹：現在這個基金的淨值大概是45億元，可動用的資金大概是14億元。"],["林委員倩綺：請問一下，2012年當時基金是多少錢？"],["宋處長麗茹：2012年當時可動用的資金大概是五十幾億元。"],["林委員倩綺：可動用的資金五十幾億元，這比現在現有的資金還要多。"],["宋處長麗茹：不，是減少。"],["林委員倩綺：可動用的資金是？"],["宋處長麗茹：可動用的資金就是原來的、大概是十五、十六億元。"],["林委員倩綺：然後現在總額剩下45億元？當時可？"],["宋處長麗茹：現在可動用的資金是14億元。"],["林委員倩綺：好，請問2012年綜合發展基金有多少錢？"],["宋處長麗茹：2012年？"],["林委員倩綺：本席當時在新北市……"],["宋處長麗茹：這個原來有100億元的額度。"],["林委員倩綺：所以原本是100億元，現在剩下45億元，請問原住民族綜合發展基金這幾年來是怎麼花的？請給本席一個報告，也給所有的原住民委員一個報告。"],["宋處長麗茹：好，我們會把所有的預算收入和支出做成報告給委員。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，錢不足的部分請趕快補足，不足的部分被挪到哪裡去了，請說明清楚，非常謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢。","繼續請林宜瑾委員質詢。很少在這裡看到你，歡迎！我們在教育及文化委員會經常見到，謝謝召委！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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盤點一下然後你必須要知道明年你們究竟在貧苦族群這個部分支出支應多少然後未來這些問題上總共需要多少額度那您必須要去了解一下您自己本身對於這個負擔假設像你剛才講的我只是用你講的話我先不要講它是否正確"},{"start":283.017,"end":302.538,"text":"從你知道的明年九萬到未來要到九十八億,我不知道你有沒有口誤,這個貧苦族群的教育經費如果是從九萬九十八萬要到九十幾萬要到九十八億,請問你現在原民會的預算如何承載這樣的經費?"},{"start":305.011,"end":329.784,"text":"我不知道你有沒有口誤喔我先講我不知道你有沒有口誤好那早上這些委員問你的這幾個問題你對經費都沒有概念如果有增加到98萬的人口數那光是只是是在講98萬的人口數嘛不是98萬的教育經費嘛變到98億嘛你的如果是98萬的人口數光是教育的經費我們估算就要差不多要90億了啦"},{"start":332.374,"end":351.95,"text":"那請問光是這一點你如何承載跟如何處理因為超過我們的預算很多而且完全會沒有辦法做現在目前原民會在做的事情當然我們要請求院裡面來協助來幫忙現在對於如何協助跟幫忙有概念了嗎"},{"start":352.671,"end":379.865,"text":"就是請求在預算在編列的時候額度外的需求我們要提出來啊進法補償您知道應該尋相關的方式來做處理嗎額度外的預算我們也是要請求院裡面來協助啊好的那您現在終於有聽清楚了所以應該您可以試圖跟努力的請求院裡面的協助那今天主席處對不起額度外行政院然後"},{"start":381.178,"end":408.863,"text":"原民會額度外的預算。」額度外的預算這點是本席非常關心的但是平樸族的功課是本席在您來拜會的時候講的很重要的一件事情而且是您今天在業務報告裡面列的第一項那除了您當天講的憲法相關的內容本席沒有看到相對的具體做法那本席希望你這個部分的功課能夠更具體找上許多委員的指教已經都幫你把"},{"start":409.383,"end":423.15,"text":"答案基本上都匡列好了未來的走向,所以你依照這個走向好好的去做,我相信應該會有一些解答。第二點,我會請主席處的副主席長。副主席長,不好意思,我想請教一下,那個原民會過去進法補償的費用,"},{"start":437.203,"end":464.939,"text":"簽原民會的經費請問這個部分怎麼處理?原民會的經費我們在113年就是撥21億左右給他透過他的原民基金來執行所以你用到我們原住民的原住民族不是全部有公務預算撥只是透過基金來發放喔公務預算撥請問我們現在的那個綜合發展基金剩多少錢?主委"},{"start":469.263,"end":480.631,"text":"我來跟委員報告一個總數就好了現在基金的淨值大概45億可動用的資金大概14億請問一下2012年當時基金是多少錢2012年當時的可動用的資金大概是50幾億可動用的資金50幾億比現在現有的資金還要多來減少"},{"start":495,"end":498.123,"text":"可動用的資金是…現在可動用的資金是14億本席在當時在新北市"},{"start":521.402,"end":541.46,"text":"對,當時這個是100億,原來是100億的這樣的一個額頭所以原本是100億,現在剩下45億請問原住民族綜合發展基金這幾年來是怎麼花的?請給本席一個報告也給所有的原住民委員一個報告好,我會把我們所有的這個預算、收入跟支出做一個報告給委員"},{"start":545.244,"end":551.233,"text":"前不足的部分請趕快補足,不足的部分被挪到哪裡去了,要說明清楚。」"}]}},{"id":"153983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba07710b27f1cbaf29e560592432c08898e1d141634ad16f55f70d53a0d6a0ba6b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:37:43 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11:46:14","影片長度":"00:08:31","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:37:43+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:46:14+08:00","duration":511,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時37分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請原民會曾主任委員和主計總處陳副主計長。"],["主席：有請曾主任委員和陳副主計長。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，雖然我們相識多年，過去也曾是同事，但是今天我們的位子，我必須就政府的施政來質詢你，請問主委，你什麼時候到任？"],["曾主任委員智勇：520。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你之前就已經知道要到原民會嗎？多久之前知道？1個月？還是半年前？"],["曾主任委員智勇：520之前一點點的時間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：陳副主計長，一般我們政府明年度的概算籌編從什麼時候開始？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們從3月開始就進行總體供需的估測，我們5月17日就把額度匡列給各個部會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：5月17日就把額度匡列給各個部會，請問主委，5月17日你人在哪裡？"],["曾主任委員智勇：還沒有來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以主計總處在做明年度政府總預算概算匡列的時候，你到任之後就只能接受這個匡列的預算額度來進行分配，是不是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您受卓院長邀請來擔任這個職務，我看到今天你是報告賴清德總統在原住民的政見，你接到原住民政見，這是總統開出來的支票，支票要兌現嘛！你開始去盤點要落實這些總統在原住民方面的政見，你需要多少年、用多少預算來執行，有沒有開始進行盤點？"],["曾主任委員智勇：開始盤點是需要很多的經費，而且不是一、二年就可以做的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是一年、二年就可以完成啦！但是盤點政見落實需要的預算是你的義務，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也必須去盤點這每一年每一年，假設未來4年你擔任主委，要落實總統的政見需要用多少預算，你要把它盤點出來，是不是這樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問你有開始就明年度在既有的框架之內，你開始覺得在內容上可以去落實賴總統的哪些政見了嗎？有哪些是在你被匡列的明年度預算內可以執行的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：在明年125億元的預算裡面，我們就排列優先順序來進行資源分配。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當明年度我再跟你請教這個問題的時候，我就要跟你問出匡列多少預算、落實賴總統哪些預算，在第一年可以做到什麼程度，你要有所準備。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來請教副主計長，這是憲法第七十條，熟悉吧！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計總處在朝野協商的時候經常都會告訴我們，立法院對於行政院所提預算案不得為增加支出之提議，是不是這樣？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，在審查預算當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在大法官釋字第264號提到，為了防止政府預算膨脹致人民負擔增加，你認為我們立法院是不是要為人民看緊荷包？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：立法院有立法院的職權。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們也不宜去增加人民的負擔，在民國79年的時候，立法院曾經通過一個決議要加發半個月公教人員獎金，但是大法官認為這是為增加支出之提議，與憲法牴觸，所以就無效。在釋字第391號，1995年的時候，它不是直接增加預算額度，總額不變，而是挪用科目，請問副主計長，這樣的方式有沒有牴觸大法官的解釋？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：審查預算的時候，如果有移動增減，當然就違背第391號解釋。"],["鍾委員佳濱：原因是什麼？是不是這樣的話，政策成敗無所歸屬，責任政治難以確立，是不是這樣子？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，它的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：預算籌編權是行政權，行政權要對這樣的預算執行後果負責，如果由立法院任意的挪調而不是刪減，那就無法確認責任政治，你認為這是不是釋字第391號的解釋內容？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，這是它的解釋內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，為了落實這件事情，我們1998年是不是有修預算法？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：對，預算法有修正。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。2019年新增訂財政紀律法，預算法第九十一條：「立法委員所提法律案大幅增加歲出或減少歲入者，應先徵詢行政院之意見，指明彌補資金之來源」，這是預算法第九十一條所明定。2019年我們新訂的財政紀律法也特別強調，中央政府包括機關以及立法委員所提的法律案，如果會大幅的增加政府的歲出或減少歲入時，應先具體指明彌補資金之來源。請問您在主計總處任職這麼久的期間，2019年之前你有沒有經歷過，曾經有立法院透過法律提案的方式，就是跟財政紀律法所相違的，有沒有發生過這樣的情況？就是透過立法案、法律案的立法來增加政府的支出，有沒有？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：透過立法案增加……"],["鍾委員佳濱：透過立法案增加政府的支出。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：有啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：2019年之前有，對不對？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這也是為什麼我們2019年要訂定財政紀律法，由立法院通過自我約束，不得以法律案的方式立法來增加政府的支出，除非你有具體指明彌補資金的來源，是不是這樣子？","好，我們請曾主委，其實過去我們談到禁伐補償，我記得那時候我們是同事，那時候在屏東縣，我們是不是率全國之先的推出禁伐補償？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時候你是支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你那時擔任什麼職務？"],["曾主任委員智勇：原民處處長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那時老闆是誰？縣長是誰？"],["曾主任委員智勇：曹啟鴻縣長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：曹啟鴻縣長有指示你要做這件事情嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們一起和族人討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你們也編列了預算嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：預算送到屏東縣議會有沒有得到支持？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，所以屏東縣議會有沒有刪減？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有增加？"],["曾主任委員智勇：也沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它尊重行政部門所提出的施政計畫，全數通過，好，這就是我們今天要提的，如果按照今天通過的，本來原民會2023年的禁伐補償預算是10.5億元，但是2024年因為把基金拿掉，全部納入公務預算，所以預算變成21億元。2025年為了執行所通過的立法案需要52.15億元，請問主委，你有時間去籌措財源嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：52.15億元當然會壓縮……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你5月20日就任，我們的預算概算5月17日就已經匡列給原民會，你有辦法增加嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是非常有難度啦！但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問副主計長，請問此項新增法律案大幅增加支出，有沒有先問過行政院的意見？你們有沒有被徵詢過？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：主計總處是沒有被徵詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們有沒有找到財源？目前找到了沒有？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：目前不確定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前不確定，好，來，最後的結論，因為主席站起來了。我要跟大家說的是，2024年原民會的公務預算支出是125.3億元，如果以禁伐補償來講，它占了42%。客委會的主委在那裡看了可能要掉眼淚，它全年度的預算是40億元，禁伐補償是它年度總預算的130%。新住民的年度總預算是4億2,000萬元，我們這次所立法要增加的額度是它的百分比一千二百四十七。主委，你現在責任很重大，為了要實現禁伐補償和增進對原住民的照顧和他們對環境所付出的貢獻，希望你下次能夠提出原民會要怎麼樣透過土地的維護來創造出政府的收入，包括碳權及各項的收盈能力，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：用此來支應未來我們所要提高的原住民的禁伐補助，可以嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：儘量努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝鍾佳濱的質詢，謝謝。但是我要順便說一下，雖然曾主委是520之後就任的，但是行政院在5月20日的時候有發文要求重新調整預算，希望原民會在6月20日以前重新報院。也就是說，我們的禁伐補償是可以在這段時間內由曾主委來提高它的預算，這是第一點。第二點，依法禁伐補償是立法院通過的，我們通過時並沒有要求中央政府要增加預算，而中央政府今年度的預算增加了一成，總共是3兆2,000億元，3兆2,000億元對26億元的原住民禁伐補償來講是少之又少，這就要看政治的決定，這是賴清德總統和行政院長到底要不要依法行政的問題，好不好？這是我的補充說明，非常謝謝！也請主委思考一下，這是你的責任，也是你的工作，怎麼樣說服行政院長在主計總處的年度預算裡去挪動，而不是排擠原民會現在所提的預算員額，謝謝。","繼續請林倩綺委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:23:51 - 11:37:23","影片長度":"00:13:32","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:23:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:37:23+08:00","duration":812,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1062,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時24分）主席、各位委員，有請曾主委和行政院主計總處副主計長、原民會主計室主任。"],["主席：請曾主委、陳副主計長及主計室主任。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：曾主委masalu，Nga'ay ho！（您好）"],["曾主任委員智勇：masalu，Nga'ay ho！（您好）"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天你的報告裡面第1張就呈現出從105年到今（113）年度預算成長，在112年度突破100億元，從105年度到113年度總共增加了34.6億元。我先問主計主任，你知道為什麼會成長這麼多嗎？"],["簡主任信惠：委員好，成長項目是禁伐補償這個項目。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：絕大部分都是法律義務支出才增加的，當然有一些是經過多年多年的爭取，我們看104年7月1日博物館法第六條是本席在教育文化委員會審查博物館法的時候，特別要求增加要設置原住民族博物館，所以開始籌編經費，一直到今年才籌編比較多的經費，以往都是一些規劃預算，所以這是法律義務支出。禁伐補償條例剛才主任也提到，這是104年12月18日立法院三讀通過，也要感謝簡東明委員，更要感謝高金素梅召委，當時在朝野協商的時候，一樣是柯總召不同意，臨門一腳，有一些故事，說來話長。所以105年1月6日公布施行，就要開始編列相關的預算，當然，這些預算不應該編列在原民會，照理應該要編列在農業部才符合原住民族基本法第二十一條的規定，但是我們還是編在原民會，所以113年6月4日立法院表決三讀通過，當然要編列，這是法律義務支出。","再來，我們看原住民族語言發展法，106年6月14日公布，這裡面就要編列經費，成立語發基金會也要編列經費，第二十九條規定政府每年應匡列預算推動本法所定各項原住民族語言發展措施，所以就開始逐年編列原住民族語言的經費，這都是法律義務支出。原住民族教育法，我們高金素梅在教育文化委員會擔任召委，也是困難重重在沒有行政院版本的情況下，在教育文化委員會非常困難的，當時也要謝謝剛到場的鍾佳濱，當時他在教育文化委員會也有提出草案，我沒有忘記你。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分一樣是法律義務支出，我只舉一條，原住民族教育法第五條，原住民族的知識體系，建構原住民族知識體系中長期計畫，從109年開始編預算，到113年度編了非常高的預算，一億四千多萬元，所以我們原住民族的權益，尤其是預算就是要透過法律。","我們看原住民族基本法第二十條，政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權益，我們就講土地，為什麼要提？我們的土地在日據時代被劃為製糖株式會社的土地，日本敗戰之後回到日本，它有沒有把土地帶回日本？沒有啊！帶不走嘛！所以中華民國政府成立的台糖公司接收了這個土地，我們原住民族的土地從民國35年就開始繳租金給台糖，繳到現在還在繳，在楊仁福的時代價購了一批，本席當立委之後，我從107年就開始質詢協調。從107、108，不是只有1張，1張圖表還不夠，到109、110、111、112，不斷的質詢、協調臺糖公司、協調經濟部、協調行政院、協調主計總處，光這個就3大張，才推動返還，行政院才同意編列，所以在113年度編列了五千多萬元，114年度還要繼續編列。所以原住民族的預算爭取很多都要透過法律，有的部分是要透過原住民族相關的轉型正義，這就是轉型正義之一。","我們看花東基金，花東基金很重要的意義是落實「公務為主，基金為輔」，過去原民會本來有編列部落聚會所的經費，有了花東基金之後就全部推給花東基金，事實上是違反了公務為主、基金為輔。所以本席就開始協調國發會、開始協調行政院、開始協調主計總處，所以行政院就同意另訂一個花東地區原住民族部落聚會所行動計畫，就是要增加原民會的宜居部落經費，總共四億多元的經費，當然，今（113）年度編得比較少，下次有空的時候還可以再談這裡面不足的地方。","今天又談到都會區，過去在臺灣省政府時代投入了很多，我們現在所知道的有屏東的文化會館，當時臺灣省政府我在當副局長的時候爭取臺灣省政府主計總處的經費；桃園大溪不是有個文化會館嗎？呂秀蓮當縣長的時候，我去爭取主計總處的經費，就畫了一個縣級的文化會館。鄉鎮級的以族群為主叫文物館，所以才會有從基隆、臺北市、新北市到桃園、臺中、屏東都有文化會館，是這樣來的，各鄉鎮有一些族群有文物館，唯一沒有促成的是哪裡？雅美族，我們經費有給，但是沒有促成，這個說來話長。所以族群主流化這個經費我就開始協調爭取，召開過多次的協調會，所以行政院終於核定族群主流化公共空間的計畫，在113年度開始有這個經費。","我舉這些例子是要讓曾主委、讓所有的同仁繼續努力，這次的禁伐補償絕對不可以擠壓現有的預算，全部都要額度外的預算，這是基本，因為它是法律義務支出，不能擠壓現有的預算。所以上次韓院長主持協調的時候，因為你初任這個職務不怪你，這個部分要往這個方向去努力，共同的努力，當然有些小額的，我這邊就沒有寫，這邊都是舉比較大額的。所以有一些經費原民會該不該編？有的不該編啊！副主計長，像總統府設了原住民族歷史正義轉型正義委員會，這個預算為什麼不編在總統府呢？編在原民會！莫名其妙！我當公務員30年了，從來沒有看過這種的，總統府還缺錢嗎？","你要回應？請說。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟原住民相關的預算編在原民會可以比較看出它的全貌，法律義務的經費依法就是要編列，但是我們只是擔心它會不會去排擠到其他非法律義務的重大計畫，當然，這個部分就是我們要努力，只是我們沒辦法確保一定完全外加。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：副主計長，你要確保，為什麼要講那麼多？除了講給曾主委聽之外，就是講給你聽，剛才報告提到的，從105年到現在增加30幾億元，都是法律義務支出，有沒有排擠原來的？沒有啊！沒有排擠原來的，我講這麼多其實是講給你聽的，知道嗎？其實沒有排擠原來的，是新增的。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，有沒有排擠……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不能排擠、不能排擠。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是，但是中間可能原民會所提的計畫我們沒有辦法完全滿足，最後編列的跟它中間爭取的過程，不必然可以百分之百完全滿足原民會的需求，因為我們資源有限，但是我們會來努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我上次也有提到政府超徵稅收幾千億元，我們禁伐補償不過二十幾億元而已，以上。"],["主席：副主計長，請你們要依法行政，謝謝鄭天財委員，謝謝曾主委，謝謝副主計長。","繼續請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅廷瑋委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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- 11:56:12","影片長度":"00:07:32","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:48:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:56:12+08:00","duration":452,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":814,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（11時48分）謝謝主席。我們請次長。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：次長好。次長，警察退休潮今年會進入高峰，雖然提出申請不見得就會退休，但是有多少人會申請退休？警察人員是警察機關最重要的資產，人才是重點嘛，是不是？"],["張次長秋元：是，是，是。"],["黃委員建賓：警察的業務也繁多，勤務繁重，而且工作也深具危險性，在警力不足的情況之下，所有沉重的工作和精神壓力，會導致更多基層員警在任職滿25年就直接申請退休，人力只會越來越欠缺，退休的可能比新進的還要多，永遠都補不滿。不只是警察而已，還包括我們的消防和海巡人員也一樣，他們的屬性也有別於一般的公務人員，所以警消、海巡的死亡跟傷亡人數相對高於一般的人員，我們今日修正警察人員人事條例有其必要性，所得替代率應該也比照國軍來辦理，這是本席的意見。","首先，我想要先問一下次長。次長，警察工作辛苦眾所皆知，甚至為了工作，連他們的餘命都比別人短，從110年銓敘部委外製作的平均餘命表來看，20歲的警察人員平均餘命大概是60.73，一般公務人員是65.86，我想要問次長，為什麼會有這個差異性？"],["張次長秋元：那個原因就是因為在職亡故，在職亡故就是剛剛我們一直在講的，在職的部分我們一定要再加強去處理，所以在因公傷亡的撫卹、慰問金等等，我們其實都加強照顧。"],["黃委員建賓：意外多嘛。"],["張次長秋元：對，所以這個就是在職的部分，退休以後的平均餘命，我們這個調查報告會後也可以再送給委員會，之前我們也有送給司法及法制委員會做參考，警察的平均餘命跟全國的平均餘命相比，公務員跟警察人員退休以後都比較高，並沒有比較低，當然警察比一般公務員的平均餘命再稍微低一點，但是差距也不是大到非常顯著，大概差不多差一歲多，所以……"],["黃委員建賓：所以人民保母不好當啦！"],["張次長秋元：這個就可以證明一個狀況，就是說，他的在職風險的確是高的，然後在職的危勞，我們必須要用在職的方法去解決，然後現在的制度也是在照顧在職，我剛剛也有講過，待遇方面，警監四階以下的，包括警佐三階、二階、一階，這四個等級的俸級，我們都拉到一般公務員八職等的年功俸最高級，警佐委任三職等是最高等級，底下的其實都拉平了，那這個當然就會反映在未來退休的時候會比同等級的人多，譬如說，警正四階是薦任第六職等，本來我們在前端就已經把俸級拉高，所以他們繳費的時候就是拉高的，跟一般八職等的公務員繳的是一樣的錢，所以當他們退休的時候，就會跟八職等的公務員是一樣，所以就比六職等的高9,500元左右，將近1萬元。"],["黃委員建賓：所以次長，警消人員本來屬性就不一樣，都已經比照第二陸軍和第二海軍的規格。"],["張次長秋元：他應該是在軍人跟一般公務員之間，所以我們在在職者的照顧上比起一般公務員會有很多特別處理的措施，包括剛才提了很多，那個……"],["黃委員建賓：我們也是要照顧他們，不然這樣以後如果沒有人要當警察，人民保母……"],["張次長秋元：我們現在是擔心一項，現在這個案把他到……像警監一我剛才有報告過，他就會來到十幾萬耶，如果跟現職人員的待遇一樣，那誰要繼續做這個辛苦的工作？這個對人力的衝擊部裡面會覺得這是一個比較擔憂的問題，就是現職人員跟沒有負責勤務工作的人我們認為還是要有一個區別，這樣才是公平，如果整個都把他拉高，會對財務造成衝擊，到最後就會造成財務負擔的世代轉移，這個是比較嚴重的問題。"],["黃委員建賓：次長，現在除了警察退休後安定生活的考慮以外，我想要請教，現在我們國家有沒有關心警察的身心健康，定期安排做心理健康的諮詢跟診斷？有沒有這樣的計畫？"],["張次長秋元：我想這個張署長應該比我更清楚，我們警政署一定一直有在做。"],["黃委員建賓：署長，我們今年防治的經費370萬而已，370萬！監察院的報告顯示近四年有22個員警自殺、全國約有1萬名警察因為情緒受困擾、6,000人有自殺的意願，而且你看你的經費全年才370萬，雖然說警察是人民的保母，但他也是人，協助這些警察的心理問題刻不容緩，應該制定更多的保護措施，對不對？而且內政部警政署近年提供一個叫關老師心理健康諮詢計畫，有這個計畫嘛，是不是？實際參與的有多少人？"],["張次長秋元：報告委員，這個部分真的是警政署比較了解，是不是拜託警政署張署長來說明？"],["黃委員建賓：好。"],["張署長榮興：這些心輔人員各警察機關都有設置，設置的員額不一，我們現在會擴大心輔機制委外的普遍率，今年（113年）我們也把它提高到300萬，明年會提高到500萬。"],["黃委員建賓：署長，本席建議還是要由專業者來做。"],["張署長榮興：對，就是委外的專業心輔機制。"],["黃委員建賓：那個關老師是你的長官嗎？"],["張署長榮興：不是、不是，我現在說的不是我們裡面的人，是委外的專業機構的這些心輔師，並不是我們自己本身的人員。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝署長，署長，我們真的要多多關心這些弟兄的心理健康問題。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["黃委員建賓：不然他們的工作壓力那麼大、勤務又重，真的會擔憂有一天沒人願意來當警察。"],["張署長榮興：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝署長、謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：下一位請黃國昌委員發言。","我們同時先處理會議時間，上午會議時間繼續進行至議程討論事項之處理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.94284375,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.69284375,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.34221875,"end":43.720343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.00721875,"end":44.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.884718750000005,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.48784375,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.955968750000004,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.06971875,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.72346875,"end":52.259093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.51221875,"end":61.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.13096875,"end":62.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.51909375,"end":64.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.13471875,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.97409375000001,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.64909375,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.37784375000001,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.35534375,"end":85.73909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.02596875,"end":89.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.61596875000001,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.68721875,"end":94.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.97346875000001,"end":98.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.85096875,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.94346875000001,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.42409375000001,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.42784375000001,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.59596875000001,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.67159375000001,"end":116.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.07596875,"end":118.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.49346875,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.53534375000001,"end":120.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.23971875000001,"end":122.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.25659375000001,"end":123.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.41659375,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.39534375000001,"end":138.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.22034375,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.28784375,"end":174.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.74284375000002,"end":144.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.69159375,"end":146.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.55221875,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.11721875,"end":180.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.15034375000002,"end":181.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.72409375,"end":199.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.20846875,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.25471875000002,"end":190.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.10096875000002,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.33221875,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.97721875000002,"end":214.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.96784375000001,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.83659375000002,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.15721875000003,"end":234.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.64409375000002,"end":242.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.59221875000003,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.36409375000002,"end":246.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.33846875,"end":250.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.78534375,"end":254.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.35846875000001,"end":263.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.78721875,"end":265.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.64346875,"end":279.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.65534375000004,"end":271.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.54409375,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.25284375,"end":282.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.54784375,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.57721875000004,"end":286.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.04096875,"end":288.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.23909375,"end":289.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.09534375000004,"end":291.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.90096875,"end":294.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.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11:55:29","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:45:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:55:29+08:00","duration":595,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時45分）感謝主席，請農業部陳部長、防檢署邱署長。"],["主席：請陳部長、防檢署。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：非洲豬瘟在亞洲還不是疫區的有哪些國家？"],["陳部長駿季：臺灣跟日本。"],["邱委員志偉：臺灣跟日本。我們在機場或者港口都有防檢局的同仁在對入境旅客的隨身行李進行安檢。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們在機場的話，行李的部分是百分之百，特別是高風險區的。"],["邱委員志偉：包括托運行李嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，託運行李，還有手提行李。"],["邱委員志偉：托運行李你們看，手提行李也看，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，高風險區就是說他是從疫區過來的，我們會那個。"],["邱委員志偉：每一個都是疫區啊！除了臺灣跟日本。"],["陳部長駿季：不見得，因為其他的國家，像日本來的，我們相關的管制規則就不一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：非日本之外的亞洲國家都會安檢？"],["陳部長駿季：只要是疫區的話，只要是疫區的話！都屬於高風險。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，我問你，只有臺灣跟日本是非疫區，其他都是疫區嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：那是亞洲啊！美洲的部分……"],["邱委員志偉：美洲的部分大部分也是疫區嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：美國也不是疫區啊！"],["邱委員志偉：所以你要看非疫區的國家，我們就不用行李安檢，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：抽檢。"],["邱委員志偉：你們動線怎麼去區分，你們知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們實際在……"],["邱委員志偉：這已經執行一段時間了。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：日本有沒有相關的作為？"],["陳部長駿季：日本也是百分之百檢查。"],["邱委員志偉：我好幾次出入日本都沒有。"],["陳部長駿季：那個是因為我們臺灣不是疫區，所以……"],["邱委員志偉：日本也不是疫區啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以相對的，我們對日本的旅客，我們檢查的程度……"],["邱委員志偉：不是啦！我在日本也沒有檢查，它也沒有檢查，對行李、托運行李、手提行李都沒有。"],["陳部長駿季：在拖運行李的部分……"],["邱委員志偉：我也不知道啦！我也不知道，手提行李也沒有。"],["陳部長駿季：手提行李是沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我們要做的是比日本更嚴格。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們……"],["邱委員志偉：嚴格是好的，防止變成非洲豬瘟的疫區，但是你們執行的時候，看X光是你們的人還是……"],["陳部長駿季：是海關的，手提行李是我們的人，後面是海關的人。"],["邱委員志偉：我好幾次都是看到保全公司在看，都是保全公司在看。"],["陳部長駿季：都是聘的，對，我們是請保全……"],["邱委員志偉：保全公司他們有專業嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有經過訓練？"],["邱委員志偉：所以不是你們的人去執行這些業務？是保全人員。"],["陳部長駿季：我們的同仁會在旁邊。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有，旁邊沒人啊！我在那邊看了一下，反正就沒有你們防檢局的人啊！因為有任何爭議，保全公司有什麼樣的訓練，不知道，對不對？他有沒有這個專業能力去執行這個案件？"],["陳部長駿季：我想協同檢驗觀看的話，保全的職權都會……"],["邱委員志偉：你們要注意一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我會注意，特別注意。"],["邱委員志偉：你屆時要執行，就是要確實執行，你不要呼嚨，也不要虛晃一招。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["邱委員志偉：比方他們有沒有專業去判斷這些是不是屬於禁止入境的肉產品？"],["陳部長駿季：他們都經過X光判讀的訓練。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道啦！但是還是要有你們專業的人嘛！你隨便一個保全公司，保全公司訓練上課多久？他有這個專業能力去做判斷嗎？對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：30個小時以上。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得還是要由你們的同仁去執行，你們要特別注意。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我會後會再去確認它整個SOP的流程，一定要有人。"],["邱委員志偉：你就一定要有人，我看了好幾次都是，我特別看了一下，沒有一個你們防檢局的人在那邊。"],["陳部長駿季：我想整個區一定要有同仁，一定要有防檢局的同仁，不能只有保全。"],["邱委員志偉：就沒有嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我會後一定會檢討、去了解。"],["邱委員志偉：如果我帶一個泡麵，泡麵是豬肉泡麵，這個有沒有違法？"],["陳部長駿季：泡麵可以。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你要加強宣導，很多人不知道，第一線在還沒有進入海關之前，你如果被搜到有肉製品，你當下丟掉沒事，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒事，對。"],["邱委員志偉：到哪邊才有事？海關才有事？"],["陳部長駿季：到海關的時候。"],["邱委員志偉：海關會檢查的比例是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：現在手提的是百分之百，然後託運行李的話是在下面轉盤的時候。"],["邱委員志偉：海關手提行李是百分之百。"],["陳部長駿季：手提的是百分之百，然後託運的話是經過下面的那個……"],["邱委員志偉：海關，你說最後一關要出境的時候。"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！出境的話，綠線我們會加強執法，綠線的部分，因為綠線通常是免申報的，很多人就是……"],["邱委員志偉：一般都免申報，他帶了什麼，像泡麵是肉製品，他怎麼會知道。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們在綠線的部分會加強抽檢。"],["邱委員志偉：是你們抽檢還是海關？"],["陳部長駿季：還有檢疫犬。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得這相對鬆散，你抽檢的比例很低，比日本低很多，日本基本10個大概有8個、7個，先看護照，然後你的行李看一看，你們都沒有做到這一點。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的提醒喔！我想會後我會……"],["邱委員志偉：你既然要從嚴，執法要確實。"],["陳部長駿季：對，執法一定要落實，我想我會後再去重新做專案檢討，看看哪邊是有漏洞的。"],["邱委員志偉：我是有看到跟你們說啦！"],["陳部長駿季：是，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["邱委員志偉：今天這個植物診療師大概從2006年就開始推動立法，2016年有這個版本出來，然後如果沒有意外的話，這一屆會過，也許快的話是這個會期，因為是跨黨派的版本都有，包括院版也有，所以立法完成之前，你們有很多宣導的工作，要去跟農民、業者溝通，這個立法一定會過，應該不會超過今年就會三讀通過，召委應該也有信心了，召委！通過之前，你要很多的宣導工作，包括你看，來，幾項給你們做參考，到底農友要去買農藥，是不是要跟植物診療師諮詢？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，不需要。"],["邱委員志偉：有人問我是不是以後要去買農藥要去跟植物診療師諮詢，就好像我們去掛號，還要弄個處方簽，有人有這種誤解。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道，所以我想我們會再更積極地，包括利害關係人，包括農藥販賣業者、農民。"],["邱委員志偉：對，農藥成本會不會因此而增加？"],["陳部長駿季：不會，反而農民本身的用藥會更精準，他農藥的使用費可能可以下降。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，還有一個很多人提出的問題，會不會跟園藝技師跟農業技師的業務重疊？"],["陳部長駿季：這個也不會，這個完全不會有影響。"],["邱委員志偉：你要讓這些園藝技師跟農業技師知道，植物診療師法通過之後，對你們的業務不會造成影響。"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們已經持續了一年多，早期可能有一些疑慮，可是這一年多來，我們很積極的去跟各個利害關係人，包括農民、農藥販賣業者、這些農藝師、園藝師，還有一些樹木的技師，我們有做了相關的宣傳，他們現在大概都瞭解了，但是我們還是不會鬆散的，還是會更積極的去推動啦！因為一個好的法，要大家都認同。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，人才的培育，雖然有臺大、中興、嘉義大學跟屏科大，有植物教學醫院，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：培養這些植物所謂的診療師，目前大概有儲備了幾位？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是用試辦的方式，儲備植物醫師大概有100位，然後我們預估法通過以後，我們的目標就是一年300位，然後10年……"],["邱委員志偉：你們預估一線的需求大概需要多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我們totally大概是3,000位，因為……"],["邱委員志偉：3,000位，你現在才100位，如果立法通過之後，立刻要執行，你一線的診療師又不夠，那要怎麼樣去去用？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個部分就是，我們其實現在已經在跟各個學校還有它畢業的……"],["邱委員志偉：這樣來得及嗎？現在馬上立法就通過了，你現在只有100位，你今天才去培育，也沒有那麼快。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，已經有很多畢業的人他是已經有資格，只是……"],["邱委員志偉：他要考照啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但是還要經過考照，所以我們現在在同步……"],["邱委員志偉：所以他是實習植物診療師是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：儲備。"],["邱委員志偉：儲備還是實習？"],["陳部長駿季：儲備。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有考到照就是實習嘛！還是儲備？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是有儲備。"],["邱委員志偉：儲備能不能執行業務？"],["陳部長駿季：對，然後後半……"],["邱委員志偉：儲備能不能執行業務嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：他還是可以做診斷，只是不能做簽證的業務，就是不能開證明。"],["邱委員志偉：要簽證，要有牌照的才能，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，有牌照才能簽證。"],["邱委員志偉：你的國考證照什麼時候會出來？"],["陳部長駿季：法的部分通過了以後，已經跟考選部談得差不多了，接下來我想我們……"],["邱委員志偉：所以立法通過之後，到底實際上的植物診療師執行簽證的業務……"],["陳部長駿季：我相信3個月之內國家考試就會有一個定版。"],["邱委員志偉：那一年考幾次？你們現在已經有腹案了嘛！一年考幾次？"],["陳部長駿季：我想一年會以一次為原則，然後根據你的需求……"],["邱委員志偉：法通過之後，你沒有人去執行簽證。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我瞭解，我們會更努力的一個關注。"],["邱委員志偉：這樣子我們立法通過，你徒有法，但是卻沒有辦法去執行，不會很奇怪嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：因為現在市面上很多相關的畢業生，其實滿期待這個法。"],["邱委員志偉：他也是不能簽證嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員志偉：但是你通過之後，你就會開始要執行簽證的業務嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個怎麼辦？這個空窗期怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們現在開始已經在蒐集已經畢業、有資格的人，其實他們也在期待這個法通過以後，3個月之內我們國家考試的相關規範會出來，後續就會招募，開始準備考試。"],["邱委員志偉：這些問題你們想辦法解決。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我想我們會努力。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員詢答。","我們中午不休息，到會議結束，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","鄭天財Sra 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️ ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":254.203,"end":256.631,"text":"然後脫銀行李的話是在下面轉賣的時候?關手提行李100%"},{"start":258.604,"end":259.124,"text":"我,我覺得齁,相對鬆散欸。"},{"start":285.629,"end":310.851,"text":"你抽選的比例很低哩。比日本低很多。日本基本10個大概有8個7個先看護照然後看你心裡看一看。你們都沒有做到這一點。你既然要從嚴但你就要執法要確實。執法一定要落實我想我會後再去重新做專案檢討。看看哪邊是有漏洞的。我是我看到的跟你們說啦。謝謝委員的提醒。"},{"start":311.755,"end":336.594,"text":" 那今天這個租診療師在從2006就開始推動立法2016有這個版本出來然後這個如果沒有意外的話這一屆會過因為是也許快的話這個會期因為是跨黨派的版本都有包括院版也有所以這個立法完成之後"},{"start":338.516,"end":366.027,"text":"厲法完成之前,你們有很多宣導的工作要去跟農民去跟他們一直去溝通。厲法這個一定會過,不會超過,應該不會超過今年,就會三度通過。這個趙委應該也有信心了,趙委。通過之後,通過之前你要很多宣導工作,包括你看,來,幾項給你們做參考。到底這個農友要去買農藥,是不是要跟植物診療師諮詢?"},{"start":368.397,"end":372.379,"text":"對,我知道。所以我想我們會再更積極的包括利害關心人,包括農藥販賣業者,包括農民。"},{"start":391.189,"end":420.511,"text":"不會反而農民本身的用藥會更精準他農藥的使用費可能可以下降好那另外還有一個很多人提出的問題就是說會不會跟原液機師跟農液機師啊對他的業務重疊這個也不會這個完全不會有影響你要讓這些原液機師跟農液機師知道說我植物診療師法通過之後對你們的業務不會造成影響這個我想我們已經持續在一年多早期可能有一些餘地啦"},{"start":420.811,"end":450.503,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":450.603,"end":470.331,"text":" 那培養這些植物的這個所謂診療師目前大概有儲備了幾位?我們現在目前用事辦的方式用儲備植物醫師大概100位啦。然後我們預估法通過以後我們的目標就是一年300位。那你預估一線的需求大概需要多少?"},{"start":470.691,"end":489.462,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":489.462,"end":515.418,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":516.428,"end":521.396,"text":"他還是可以做診斷,只是不能做簽證的業務,就是不能開證明。那你這個國考的證照什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":530.489,"end":546.002,"text":"我相信我們跟那個考試已經跟跟考選部已經談得差不多了那接下來我想我們所以你立法通過之後到你那個實際上的植物診療師實行簽證業務我相信上個月之內國家考試就會就會就會有一個定版"},{"start":548.507,"end":562.346,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":562.892,"end":592.756,"text":" ️ ️"}]}},{"id":"153978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0d1015035143b0edec65fab1c545da5d04d862afa46997d4e0c61b53b4db24b935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:43:00 - 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University，是不是太多？"],["葉次長丙成：它收得到學生就有它的價值，今天如果它不願意改變，所以收不到學生，當然它的存在就會是一個問號。"],["賴委員士葆：當然，大學數量太多嘛！臺灣是全世界大學數量排名第二名耶！我們有2,300萬人口，其中六百多萬人有大學學歷，幾乎百分之百都可以錄取大學。你看在座各位，以前我們考大學多難，現在考大學多容易啊！當然是大學數量太多嘛！所以本席就問你，你覺得最適當的大學數量應該是多少？"],["葉次長丙成：這個我沒辦法回答，因為這要配合臺灣未來的人力需求，這不是我們……"],["賴委員士葆：你說了半天，我們對你的期待也很高，結果網紅教授一點都不紅。等一下，主席，你讓其他人問很久，本席很少來。現在大學數量太多，所以大學生學歷貶值，你同意我們的大學學歷貶值嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：現在越來越多企業是看學生有什麼能力可以符合企業的需求，所以學歷的重要性相對來說確實較以前的年代下降，這一點沒錯。"],["賴委員士葆：所以是貶值了嘛！就是這個道理嘛！所以現在不是只靠文憑，還要靠其他的Skill。"],["葉次長丙成：對，Skill很重要。"],["賴委員士葆：其他東西要加進來嘛！Added value，這樣附加價值才能提高，所以不是只有學歷而已，這個很重要。"],["葉次長丙成：是，對。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一點就是今天討論的少子化，本席剛才沒有聽得很清楚，你們怎麼打開僵局，在現在的時空，讓陸生願意過來臺灣？現在兩岸關係這麼不好，你們有什麼辦法？請你告訴本席。"],["葉次長丙成：基本上我們已經和對岸的相關窗口表達善意。"],["賴委員士葆：你們和對岸什麼窗口接觸？"],["葉次長丙成：請國際司副司長說明。"],["賴委員士葆：好，本席的時間到了，你趕快講。"],["廖代理司長高賢：我們現在的對口單位是對方的招生服務中心，由臺灣的陸聯會做對等窗口。"],["賴委員士葆：所以明年可望有多少陸生來臺？請你告訴本席數字，然後本席就下發言台。"],["葉次長丙成：我們還在等對岸的回應。"],["賴委員士葆：請你告訴本席最樂觀的狀況。"],["葉次長丙成：我們可以回復到之前的招生人數，這都沒問題，但……"],["賴委員士葆：那是多少人？"],["葉次長丙成：最高的時候是九千多人。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，感謝。接下來請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","林倩綺","葛如鈞","葉元之","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","賴士葆","林思銘","陳亭妃","翁曉玲","范雲","羅智強","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","吳春城"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":2.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":10.172843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.57784375,"end":12.484718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.239093750000002,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.93096875,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.70284375,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.86284375,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.20846875,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.992843750000002,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.01784375,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.06846875,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.38471875,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.772843750000003,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.56159375,"end":34.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.92846875,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.987218750000004,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.189093750000005,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.142218750000005,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.23909375,"end":45.812843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.032218750000006,"end":49.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.352218750000006,"end":50.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.837218750000005,"end":52.157843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.680968750000005,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.072843750000004,"end":57.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.659093750000004,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":61.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.69221875,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.29534375,"end":65.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.18096875,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.91909375,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.92721875000001,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.42471875000001,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.10659375,"end":85.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.73909375000001,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.31659375000001,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.63846875,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.46096875,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.79409375,"end":112.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.06409375000001,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.14846875,"end":112.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.89909375,"end":115.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.74284375,"end":116.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.10971875000001,"end":123.01596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.72471875000001,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.46721875,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.56409375000001,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.62721875000001,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.67721875,"end":131.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.24971875,"end":139.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.22846875000002,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.53596875,"end":145.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.23596875,"end":147.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.48034375,"end":150.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.05784375000002,"end":154.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.66909375,"end":156.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.08659375000002,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.84159375000002,"end":160.34346875},{"s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簡短問題第一個在大學裡面的助理教授到副教授副教授到教授過去有所謂的六年條款大學裡面就是說我今天是助理教授我六年沒辦法升到副教授"},{"start":50.39,"end":71.647,"text":"我滾蛋這個副教授6年沒辦法升到教授我滾蛋過去有這樣的條款後來學校慢慢的有把它取消掉我就請教次長這個6年條款能不能有教育部統一規定各個學校把這個取消了因為你這個在大學教書"},{"start":72.527,"end":72.647,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":89.372,"end":91.734,"text":"所以沒辦法做到說取消這個可是很多學校講啊事實上這個"},{"start":117.208,"end":119.069,"text":"第二題 這個也是我提一些學校的教授來發問"},{"start":146.371,"end":164.725,"text":"施力大學他轉到公立大學的時候常常被要求降等來轉過來比如說我在施力大學當教授結果到國立大學裡面去他說你變成副教授這個你怎麼處理教育部怎麼處理"},{"start":168.686,"end":176.793,"text":"你覺得合不合理嗎?這個很多私下他都升等過程你是follow教育部的啊follow教育部的結果公立大學不承認這個東西"},{"start":188.018,"end":211.347,"text":"我跟委員報告,因為很多這個學校併校其實有很多的考量比如說有學校擔心說他併校之後他會不會影響到他的排名啊學術排像這個其實我覺得就變成是這兩個答案啦次長我這兩個答案test你啊原來對你有高度期待你是網紅教授有人講說是孔雀形的有人說你是翻轉教育結果你都沒有翻轉了你都不敢翻轉了"},{"start":212.607,"end":233.157,"text":"規定在那裏就規定在那裏的6年這學校來講你都不敢去動它第二個這個私校的教授轉到亞公立大學的教授你也都不敢動所以我覺得你沒有任何翻轉啊你沒有任何的創新在這裏要看起來要讓大家覺得喔葉丙成亮點喔現在不知道亮在那裏"},{"start":234.538,"end":239.821,"text":"報告委員,我已經7年沒有談翻轉了。人家還叫你孔雀形,孔雀什麼叫孔雀形的網紅教授,孔雀形就是燒包型,燒包型的這個花枝招團的教授,沒看到啊,鬼鬼祈祈在這裡。"},{"start":256.833,"end":285.375,"text":"對,我還蠻規矩的。不是啊。報告委員,這個依法行政這是我必須要做的事情啦。在法律跟允許的空間我們做的東西...但是在你的...你要有這麼大的權力在手上,你總是...我剛提出來都是失效的一些教授的心聲,你又給他一條路。來啦,再來第三個問題,簡單的問題啊。你今天提到說我們的少子化嘛,今天題目是這個嘛。"},{"start":286.383,"end":312.634,"text":"我們大學數量是不是太多?是不是太多?這個很具體喔!是不是太多?如果因應台灣未來人力需求的話目前我們有非常大的壓力必須要從國外攬財回來你回答我是不是說所以如果是在從國外攬財讓台灣的解決台灣2030年的這個30萬人力缺口的話我覺得我們大學這些很多人體制好的大學還是有它存在的價值跟必要"},{"start":313.554,"end":335.035,"text":"是不是太多嗎?你要回答我的問題嗎?我們講說營養太多over banking這個University太多over University他收得到學生就有他的價值他今天如果不願意改變然後他收不到學生那當然他的存在就會是當然大學數量太多嘛全世界台灣已經是全世界大學數量第二名的"},{"start":336.036,"end":336.156,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":356.896,"end":383.285,"text":"這個我沒辦法回答,因為這是要配合台灣整個未來人力的需求。你講一半,我們對你期待很高,網紅教授給我們不紅,一定不紅。來來來,等一下主席,你讓其他人問就我稍微要,我很少來,我很少來。我跟你講喔,這個現在來講,我們看到大學數量太多,大學生學歷貶值,你同意我們的大學貶值嗎?大學學歷貶值嗎?"},{"start":386.284,"end":403.349,"text":"因為現在越來越多企業是在看學生有什麼樣的能力可以符合企業的需求所以確實學歷的重要性相對來講叫以前的年代是下降的是沒錯所以是貧殖了嘛就這個道理嘛所以不是只有靠文憑還要靠其他skill"},{"start":403.969,"end":423.363,"text":"對 skill很重要對嘛其他東西要加進來嘛才能夠那個value added才能夠附加價值提高所以不是只有學歷而已這個很重要最後一點就是今天少子化的東西我剛才沒有聽很清楚你怎麼樣打開在現在的時空裡面讓陸神能夠願意過來台灣現在兩岸的關係這麼不好你有什麼辦法你告訴我"},{"start":429.512,"end":440.383,"text":"我們基本上已經跟對岸相關的窗口都有表達我們的善意你跟對岸什麼窗口接觸?這個我請國際事務部長我們現在的對口單位是對方的交聲服務中心由我們台灣的陸聯會來做對等的窗口"},{"start":450.205,"end":450.405,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"153977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0e4bbcc18d22401738ff7e0bc1ebc50214d862afa46997d4e79e30822738802ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:40:59 - 11:48:32","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:40:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:48:32+08:00","duration":453,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":786,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時41分）謝謝主席。我們先請警政署張署長。"],["主席：麻煩署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：署長好。我今天分幾個部分，因為今天要審查警察人員人事條例，最主要修正的內容就是要提高警察、消防、海巡人員年資滿15年所得替代率要從45%提高到90%或95%。那我想先請教一下警政署，我們對於警察人員的福利跟保護這幾年有什麼具體的措施嗎？因為我認為其實在座所有委員都非常支持要來照顧警消，我過去也非常努力在幫警消爭取各式各樣的權益，但是今天單獨修這個，我認為是有一點問題的，因為對的目標不應該用錯的方法。我先請教一下署長，從2016年到現在，對警消做了什麼保障？"],["張署長榮興：我們從105年到目前為止，相關福利措施總共有16項，我簡單舉例來講，第一個就是警察、消防、海巡、移民、空勤的醫療照護方案，都是可以普遍地去做，有64家醫院，這些人員去就醫，就免付掛號費。第二部分就是把警察人員的超勤從一萬七調到一萬九。第三個部分就是我們在去年調高警勤加給15%。另外在今年的6月1日，也就是剛剛開始，我們前兩個禮拜也有調高深夜加勤，對於警察人員因公傷亡的補助辦法也都有提高金額，這裡面臚列的，如果委員要知道詳細的相關福利，可以會後再提供給委員來瞭解。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝署長。其實署長太客氣了，你還有很多東西沒有講到，像是一些員警的醫療終身照護的制度，還有幼兒的托育補助，甚至是因公殉職的獎章撫卹提高40%，還有很多，就是警消的車輛電擊器，然後戰術的相關設備，其實都有在強化。其實署長不用這麼客氣啦。有做事就大聲講出來，好不好？"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["黃委員捷：再來，我們請銓敘部的張次長。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好。我們當然是要持續地幫警消人員來爭取福利，那我想要請教的是說，現在我們單修警察人員人事條例，我認為有問題的地方是應該要全面來看待，對嗎？"],["張次長秋元：對，要全面地看待，因為同一個基金大家用同樣的標準繳費，就領同樣的退休給付。"],["黃委員捷：好，其實剛剛次長在回應其他委員時也講得非常清楚了。為什麼我說不能單看警察？是因為大家用同樣的一個基金，如果我們現在只修了警察的部分，是不是會排擠到其他的公務員？這是我最擔心的。要調整可以，大家共同來討論嘛，因為年金制度是一件非常龐大，要全面一起來看待的事情。我找了一下，如果我們現在單修這個警察條例，會對哪一些其他人員不公平呢？例如其他的危勞人員是不是應該要一起討論？包括醫護人員，包括監所人員，包括義務役，包括很多相關的人員，像是民防，這些人員其實他們都算在我們過去所謂的危勞人員裡面，如果要討論是不是所有的危勞人員大家的福利薪資都應該要一起來討論呢？這是其中一個。"],["張次長秋元：單調警消的確會造成不公平。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。再來，我剛剛講說，其他的公務員一定要一起討論，是因為大家適用的是同一個水庫啊。"],["張次長秋元：最主要是大家繳一樣的錢。"],["黃委員捷：如果我們現在單調了警察的部分，是不是會變成說其他的公務員要來補貼警察啊？那這樣子其他的公務人員心裡做何感想？在座這麼多公務員，大家難道不會覺得很委屈嗎？所以我覺得要調一定要一起調，就好比說，現在有一個大水庫，結果我們在這裡私接了一條水管，說我們要來把15年年資以上的警消人員要用的錢就從這個水庫私接出來，然後提早把這個水庫的水用光，最後就是這個水庫提早乾掉，所以我覺得私接水管的事情絕對不能在這裡發生，要談大家一起來談。甚至我看了一下，如果現在我們用這個版本，警察的退休金會比公務員未來的退休金多17.5%。"],["張次長秋元：對，一開始就會多17.5%。"],["黃委員捷：是的，一開始就多17.5%，那我不知道在座這麼多公務員，大家心裡會怎麼看待這樣的一個條例的通過。","再來，我覺得最不公平的其實是對現職的警察，尤其是年輕的警察，為什麼呢？因為我去看了一下這個條例，這一次修正的第三十五條，僅適用2023年7月以前到職的警察人員，也就是說，在此之後的年輕警察並沒有因此受惠。也就是說，對年輕警察來說，這個條例對他們來說，是沒有辦法因此而照顧到的。那這樣子，這個條例看起來真的是漏洞百出，並且對其他的公務員非常的不公平。所以我想問的是，次長，如果真的要修，是不是不能只修一半，而是大家應該共同來討論呢？"],["張次長秋元：對。我們會比較建議要合乎公平對等的原則，這也是大家必須要去堅持的，不然這整個邏輯運作的原則就破壞掉了。"],["黃委員捷：好。要拜託次長遵守這個原則，請所有的公務員，不管警消，不管其他類型的公務員，大家應該要一起來共同討論這個大家共同使用的基金的來源嘛。","最後，我講一下，今天這樣子的法律通過，其實是違反財政紀律法第五條、第七條，以及預算法第九十一條，還有憲法第七十條，甚至違反釋字391號立法院不得單獨增加預算的規定，違反了這麼多法律，所以今天如果這樣的法律貿然通過，真的不只是違反現行的財政紀律，更是違憲啊。","所以今天這個討論拜託大家，共同來照顧警消的權益真的很好，我也很希望達到這個對的目標，但是真的不要用錯的方法來私接水管，讓這個大水庫提早漏水，好不好？"],["張次長秋元：跟委員報告，照顧警消的這個部分，現職的警消，其實一開始的時候我就報告過，不管是待遇，俸級結構、撫卹、退休年齡，可以早10年領月退休金，或者是因公傷亡慰問金是公務員的兩倍，公務員慰問金現在是1,000萬，警消最高就提到2,000萬，所以應該是在現職危勞的因素上面，我們要更加努力，如果不夠的地方，我想政府應該要持續地去關注。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個也要拜託次長和銓敘部持續努力。謝謝。"],["張次長秋元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請黃建賓委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.56096875,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.880968750000001,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.37784375,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.238468750000003,"end":63.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.953468750000006,"end":69.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.21846875,"end":104.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.33534375,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.48721875000001,"end":105.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.53346875000001,"end":111.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.49034375000001,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.85284375,"end":113.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.90346875,"end":128.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.28096875,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.22659375,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.20096875000002,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.17534375,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.22596875000002,"end":156.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.31721875000002,"end":166.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.35096875000002,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.12721875,"end":182.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.61846875,"end":189.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.94659375,"end":240.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.83346875,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.74471875,"end":240.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.95534375000003,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.35909375000003,"end":305.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.21971875000003,"end":251.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.87346875000003,"end":307.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.10534375000003,"end":357.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.98346875000004,"end":366.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.40409375,"end":404.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.82409375000003,"end":420.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.91034375000004,"end":442.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.35846875000004,"end":442.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.57784375000006,"end":450.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.27284375000005,"end":454.08659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.575,"end":36.582,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請警政署張署長麻煩署長委員好好署長好我今天分幾個部分啦因為今天要審查這個警察人員人事條例那裡面最主要修正的內容就是要提高警察消防海巡人員年資滿15年所得替代率45%要提高到90或95%嘛"},{"start":38.462,"end":60.139,"text":"那我想先請教一下警政署現在我們對於警察人員的福利跟保護這幾年有什麼具體的措施嗎因為我認為說其實在座所有委員都非常支持要來照顧警消那其實我過去也非常努力在幫警消爭取各式各樣的權益但是呢今天單獨修這個我認為是有一點問題的因為對的目標不應該用錯的方法"},{"start":64.022,"end":88.468,"text":"那先請教一下署長我們現在從2016年到現在對警校做了什麼保障我們從105年到目前為止總共的這些的相關福利措施有16項我簡單舉例來講就是第一個是警察消防海巡移民空勤的醫療照護的一個方案那都是可以普遍的去做有64家的醫院譬如說去救命告告發會"},{"start":90.328,"end":90.909,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．一）委員"},{"start":105.566,"end":110.968,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議"},{"start":128.936,"end":155.174,"text":"謝謝署長其實署長太客氣了啦你還有很多東西沒有講到啦像是一些員警的醫療、中生照護的制度還有幼兒的補助、托育補助甚至是因公訓值的獎章的輔助提高40%還有很多就是警消的車輛、電機器然後戰術的相關的一些設備其實都有在強化嘛其實署長不用這麼客氣啦有做事就大聲講出來好不好"},{"start":156.395,"end":158.677,"text":"二）委員張次長,請。委員好。好,那我們當然是要持續地幫警消人員來爭取福利。那我想要請教的是說,現在因為其實我們單修這個警察人員的這個條例,我認為有問題的地方是應該要全面來看待,對嗎?"},{"start":182.779,"end":210.459,"text":"對要全面的看待因為同一個基金大概用同樣的標準繳費就領同樣的這個退休給付好這其實剛剛次長在回應其他委員講得非常清楚了為什麼我說不能單看警察是因為大家用同樣一個基金如果我們現在只修了警察是不是會排擠到其他的公務員這是我最擔心的要調整可以大家共同來討論嘛因為年金制度是一個非常龐大要全面一起來看待的事情喔"},{"start":210.999,"end":224.263,"text":"我找了一下其實如果我們現在單說這個警察條例會對哪一些其他人不公平呢例如其他的為勞人員是不是應該一起討論包括醫護人員包括監所人員包括義務役包括還有很多相關的人員像是民防這些人員其實他們都算在我們過去所謂的為勞人員裡面如果要討論是不是所有的為勞人員大家的福利薪資是都應該要起來討論呢這是其中一個沒錯"},{"start":241.028,"end":241.208,"text":"二）委員三）委員"},{"start":262.139,"end":290.598,"text":"大家難道不會覺得很委屈嗎所以我覺得要調一定要一起調反而不是說現在我們就好比說現在有一個大水庫結果我們在這裡撕接了一條水管說我們要把這個15年年資以上的警察人員就從這個水庫撕接出來然後提早把這個水庫的水用光最後就是提早這個水庫提早乾掉所以我覺得撕接水管的事情絕對不能在這裡發生要"},{"start":292.139,"end":303.083,"text":"要談大家一起來談甚至我看了一下喔就是說如果現在我們用這個這個版本大家的版本下去啊會比公務員未來的退休金多17.5%"},{"start":306.005,"end":330.878,"text":"一開始就會多17.5%那我不知道在座這麼多公務員大家心裡會怎麼看待這樣的一個條例的通過那再來我覺得對最不公平的其實是對現職的警察尤其是年輕的警察為什麼呢因為我去看了一下這個條例裡面喔就是在這一次修正的啊35條警是用2013年7月以前到職的"},{"start":331.598,"end":356.371,"text":"警察人員也就是說在此之後的年輕警察並沒有因此受惠喔!就是說對年輕警察來說這個條例對他們來說是很沒有辦法因此而照顧到的那這樣子這個條例看起來真的是漏洞百出並且對於其他的公務員非常的不公平所以我想問的是次長如果真的要修是不是不能只修一半而是大家應該共同來討論呢?"},{"start":358.152,"end":382.631,"text":"我們會比較建議要公平對等的原則這個是大家必須要去堅持的不然這整個邏輯運作原則就破壞掉了好 要拜託次長遵守這個原則請所有的公務員不管警消不管其他類型的公務員大家應該要一起來共同來討論這個大家共同使用的這個基金的來源嘛最後講一下說今天這樣子的法律通過"},{"start":383.331,"end":403.981,"text":"其實是違反財政紀律法第五條第七條以及預算法第九十一條還有憲法第七十條甚至違反我們四至三九一號立法院不得單獨增加預算違反了這麼多法律所以今天如果這樣的法律貿然的通過真的是不只是違反現行的財政紀律更是違憲啊"},{"start":405.891,"end":420.41,"text":"所以我希望今天這個討論拜託大家共同來照顧警消的權益真的很好我也很希望達到這個對的目標但是真的不要用錯的方法來撕結水管讓這個大水庫提早漏水好不好"},{"start":421.071,"end":449.95,"text":"根委員報告就是照顧警消這個部分限制的警消報告我其實一開始的時候就做人報告不管是待遇啦、鳳級結構啦、他的這個婦婿啦、他的這個退休年齡啦他可以找10年齡約退休金啦或者是這個因公上網、慰問金都是公務員的兩倍這公務員現在一千萬最高是提到兩千萬沒錯應該在限制他的危老的因素上面我們要更加的努力如果不夠的地方我想政府應該要持續的去關注"},{"start":450.31,"end":453.317,"text":"二）委員好,這個也要拜託我們次長宣敘部持續努力。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0a90daf14cec4769779c37d5c632653374d862afa46997d4ee7ecaafb1c2cb07b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:38:42 - 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bicy 請教一下部長目前我們掌握到的狀況是怎麼樣我跟委員說明一下就是去年跟今年特別是今年我們的漁獲量有比較多整個整體的漁獲量的部分那相對的它更密集所以我們"},{"start":111.324,"end":138.905,"text":"我們內部也做了檢討就是說我們對於整個的一個捕撈的時間序列的數量沒有非常及時的讓我們的漁民知道透過漁業廣播電台我想這部分我們會改進而且以我現在希望用數位化的資訊讓更多的產交資訊讓漁民知道我想這個部分我們會改進然後第二個部分就是6月9號本身去宣布只有兩天的時間"},{"start":140.333,"end":155.52,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":155.62,"end":167.969,"text":"議長,有的已經到漁場已經抓到了,有的是正要準備抓,有的是現在在港邊有寬寮10天準備出海要去抓的,這又都是損失的漁民啊。 我也感謝委員這樣的一個關心,所以我也請月署針對這一些就是在我們"},{"start":176.715,"end":191.783,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":191.843,"end":215.893,"text":" bicy 第三個部分就是我們的配額1965噸齁年配額我們也在積極的跟那個中西太平洋的委員協會齁漁業協會去協調因為一個很死的那個縣對於漁民有沒有捕撈可能會超過嘛齁應該有適當的緩衝期啦那我更不能接受齁因為我個人不能接受說漁民捕撈到的"},{"start":216.715,"end":238.624,"text":" bicy 結果不能載回港還要丟到海裡面去我覺得這是對我來講我覺得是部長所以你認為這是一個生態保育嗎這個絕對不是一個生態保育對但是這個部分會牽涉到配額的第二年的配額所以我也希望說能夠跟那個相關的中西太平洋的協會漁業協會談吼是不是有一個緩衝1965噸裡面有一個緩衝那這樣子的話至少讓再接近配額的那個"},{"start":246.527,"end":263.268,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":263.408,"end":282.161,"text":"每一天的速度都很快啊。那我們現在也掌握到說到底有多少船隻在我們這個海域在追,你們都非常清楚。但是反過頭來,漁民抱怨是什麼?你們只會發錢而已,為什麼我們在漁民面前在抓魚啊?說不夠勒,反而要他們把這個辛苦捕獲的漁獲把它丟棄到海上,這樣子對嗎?"},{"start":285.083,"end":302.588,"text":"沒有,所以我才會說在國際上的這些配額本身它是一條線我們一直在爭取它是一個百分比就是1965的百分之上下百分之五那這樣的話就能夠減緩就是接近配額的這些魚就算捕撈到了我們也可以把它載回港"},{"start":303.668,"end":323.307,"text":"議長分析本期要求的是說因為這樣的問題不只今年會發生明年後年我們是不是有一樣的怎麼樣的配套措施因為我們現在整個通報系統我們只有局限在所謂的一個漁會嘛並沒有下達到所謂的一個漁民就在漁民都說我不就在同地啊或者中間在忙啊所以"},{"start":323.507,"end":340.708,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":340.708,"end":367.022,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":367.362,"end":388.762,"text":"呃,部長,本席有兩個要求齁。第一個,在兩個禮拜之內,針對我們這一次的檢討報告還有未來的配合措施提供一份書面報告給本席。第一個,針對現在目前在船上海上作業的漁民跟現在已經在陸上做好整備的一些漁民,後續怎麼樣賠償他們的損失的部分,也提出一個書面報告。"},{"start":390.225,"end":403.306,"text":"我們不要用賠償這個損失啦,我想我們會有一個產業輔導的方式來協助這個部分。不管什麼名稱啦,市民的信息我們都要給他們賠償啦,這樣好不好?了解,我們會盡努力的去把那個相關的方案去做研議。好謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba00fc13036855483ccc65fab1c545da5d04d862afa46997d4e4c05adb7ad1365b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:32:53 - 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我們有請葉次長"},{"start":15.332,"end":31.374,"text":"市長好,今天的話我們就是針對高教的部分來跟市長做一個討論那其實我想這個在我們的報告裡面都有講111年的時候我們的大一新生會來到最低點是來到15.7,整整跟現在比差不多將近4萬"},{"start":32.595,"end":34.316,"text":"我想要了解的地方就在於說"},{"start":48.962,"end":65.144,"text":"當我們人數越來越少了可是我們現在列入專輔的學校目前只有這四所那我想要知道說我們現在要如何去因應這麼少了這麼多將近五萬人呢我們的準備到底是什麼"},{"start":66.605,"end":82.559,"text":"我們現在其實我們在鼓勵這些大學因為前面有提到就是說台灣目前接下來會遇到我們產業其實有一個很大的人力缺口在2030年的時候所以這些私立大學其實它有另外一個也還有一個很重要的任務就是說怎麼樣幫助台灣去"},{"start":83.76,"end":83.98,"text":"主席"},{"start":98.897,"end":118.236,"text":"我們的目標是這樣子嗎?我們的理解是這樣子嗎?我們的目標是到2030年之前我們累計要收30萬個學生所以其實這本來就是一個非常台灣的缺口很大所以這就變成是的確我們就是要私立學校還有公立學校如果有要走這條路一起"},{"start":119.218,"end":119.498,"text":"為什麼大家要出國來念書?"},{"start":119.498,"end":120.099,"text":"為什麼大家要出國來念書?"},{"start":120.099,"end":120.74,"text":"為什麼大家要出國來念書?"},{"start":120.74,"end":121.701,"text":"為什麼大家要出國來念書?"},{"start":121.701,"end":122.362,"text":"為什麼大家要出國來念書?"},{"start":122.362,"end":122.763,"text":"為什麼大家要出國來念書?"},{"start":134.721,"end":134.841,"text":"﹚張雅琳"},{"start":151.351,"end":173.041,"text":"主策率未達六成的學校來做一個基礎沒有錯但是呢今天回應到剛剛前面那個問題這些招生不良的學校一定它裡面有一些狀況那到底我們的教育部有沒有掌握因為如果你說要招國外的學生好了因為這些學生他會來這些學校唸書嗎"},{"start":174.935,"end":192.63,"text":"這到底我們是不是要怎麼樣來協助這些學校產出這些競爭力跟吸引力嘛 對不對我這個其實整個政策的配套好像我們在目前這個新南向產業專班我們在越南印尼跟菲律賓我們都有設定招生基地跟據點在當地幫他們教他們訓練他們華語能力要到這個A2的等級才會來台灣"},{"start":196.834,"end":223.62,"text":"我了解,但是我想這個因為我們之前其實有質詢過這個題目啦但是這個人數其實進展非常的緩慢啦那我想這部分我想主要是訴求啦就是說我們針對這些註冊率會達六成的學校我們有沒有一些積極的輔導機制啦應該這樣講,因為你不把阿列路專輔嘛你希望留下來嘛你要去照顧國外的學生嘛那我們有沒有一些積極的輔導介入措施來協助這些學校不然你剛剛講的那些都不會實現啊"},{"start":224.52,"end":226.326,"text":"我們有沒有這些想像過的規劃來協助這些學校?"},{"start":230.252,"end":254.304,"text":"當他的這個財務如果有出現惡化的狀況或是失智或是教學品質有出問題的出狀況的時候我們就開始從預警的不對我現在講的是這些註冊率未達六成的因為你現在未達六成你就有可能因為你錢收得太少嘛註冊費太少啊那你怎麼去營運那相關的問題就會產生嘛那我們針對這些未達六成的學校我們有沒有一些積極的介入型的措施目前有規劃嗎"},{"start":257.433,"end":274.004,"text":"這就是因為他招生未達六成也代表他現在科系跟整個產業或社會的需求是不是match的所以他就去做調整所以這也是為什麼部長會提到說我們鼓勵他們就是不要再被那個院這個系所的數量限制他可以朝單科的專業"},{"start":274.684,"end":276.184,"text":"臺文系停招臺文系停招臺文系停招臺文系停招"},{"start":298.271,"end":312.687,"text":"但是上次給我的回覆就只有說我們現在會來協助確認他這個停招的程序是否符合正常流程還是沒有回答我會不會來協助他們這可以回答我一下嗎我們會來瞭解這個狀況來看怎麼樣來積極協助他們"},{"start":315.53,"end":329.766,"text":"接下來就是說我們在這個3加2的新五端模式今天次長其實也有講說這是一個初步的構想希望可以來去搶救我們來提供一些吸引力來解決我們這些少子化就職的人數"},{"start":334.071,"end":360.165,"text":"但是我們從這個右邊的表其實也有看到就是說學生人數其實坦白說繼職生的人數就是比較少然後呢我們學測報考的人數呢也已經超越了統測報考的人數了我現在其實有一個很好奇的地方我們這個3加2新五專模式要如何吸引繼職技術性的高中生啊這個吸引力到底在哪裡啊因為坦白說他現在學生學校這麼多啊他也可以去念一般學校就好為什麼他要念這個3加2"},{"start":361.808,"end":382.558,"text":"這個跟委員報告因為這個一般我們看到就是說像五專的學生畢業的他的薪資是比大學畢業生高的也就是看到這市場上對五專就是這五年畢業去就業這個是有市場在有需求在那另外就是說其實我們現在要做的事情就是說你今天都只是高職去招生跟高中在競爭的時候他比較辛苦"},{"start":382.998,"end":383.018,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":401.221,"end":418.615,"text":"國中畢業他可以好好五年不用去遭受到升學的壓力好好的學技術這也可以解決我們現在的高職有很多的學生到高二高三就為了要升學為了要統策準備考試準備統策其實專業技術也沒學好所以他其實有幾個目的是要讓孩子有五年的時間"},{"start":419.636,"end":419.656,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":441.795,"end":468.537,"text":"次長也有講就是說需要學習計職的專業能力那從2018年教育部的點亮計職之光其實也有講這跟經濟的建設密不可分非常的需要那全世界都在講AI我們也說我們要做一個AI指導那現在全台灣都在流行那但是中研院的孔祥仲院士也提了一個意見就是說計職教育是台灣教育的基石其實回應剛剛次長講的這件事情我們需要很多動手的人來整理這些相關的資料"},{"start":470.238,"end":484.167,"text":"來培養我們需要培養一萬名懂AI的技職生那我現在想要請教次長就是說你認同恐怖院是我相信應該是挺認同他的主張但是我們要如何在現在的技職體系培養AI人才我們有足夠的師資跟資源嗎"},{"start":485.984,"end":506.758,"text":"我想我認同這個一萬名懂AI但是我覺得我們現在台灣社會有很多事情是混在一起比如我們在講說我們很缺AI人才那AI人才到底是什麼AI人才我覺得我們應該要區分成一個是發展研發AI技術的人跟會用AI在他的領域的人這兩個要區分開來那我想"},{"start":507.438,"end":510.439,"text":"對,但是我們現在的資資跟資源有準備好可以去訓練像這樣子的技職生讓他懂AI嗎?"},{"start":523.465,"end":552.37,"text":"這件事情其實也不見得只是從技職層出發我想我們分成兩個部分好了因為剛剛次長也有講一個是研發那是另外一端可能在大學端處理的部分一個是實務上操作面的部分那我們現在在處理的就是操作面的部分我要回應委員的是說我認為懂AI的人其實也還不止一萬人因為我覺得未來我們的孩子們很多都對這事情要有所了解所以這個未來就是為什麼我們怎麼樣再從中小學教育從中小學小學的時候他就要開始要"},{"start":552.99,"end":553.41,"text":"但我想因為"},{"start":568.704,"end":568.724,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0318639dfd7f20f8f8ff7e0bc1ebc50214d862afa46997d4e00d8e0402cabe7a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:32:16 - 11:40:24","影片長度":"00:08:08","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:32:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:40:24+08:00","duration":488,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":747,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時32分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請銓敘部張次長。"],["主席：麻煩張次長。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：次長，有關今天要審查的警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案，我看到相關部門的整個報告都表示，根據公務人員的退撫法，現在不宜做任何的調整。"],["張次長秋元：是，這是我們的建議。"],["林委員思銘：你們現在的報告的意見是這樣，但是根據我的瞭解，以今年新退的公務人員為例，若是以35年的年資，平均590個俸點，以及最後在職的15年的平均薪資，以這三個條件去計算的話，那麼最後可以拿到的平均月退休金為多少？次長，你知道嗎？大概多少錢？"],["張次長秋元：最高嗎？"],["林委員思銘：對，最高。你們平均多少？"],["張次長秋元：五萬三。"],["林委員思銘：五萬三嘛？"],["張次長秋元：對。"],["林委員思銘：這個數字是您認為足夠我們的退休公務人員生活嗎？五萬三，以現在的生活條件。"],["張次長秋元：生活條件每一個人的感受就是見仁見智啦。但是我們必須要以整體的財務去做處理。"],["林委員思銘：次長，我告訴你，現在以我們臺灣65歲以上的長者而言，退休後生活最重要的支出將會是一般的醫療跟長照的費用，根據衛福部的調查，65歲以上的老人平均每人每月的醫療費用是6,500元，是29歲以下族群的6.4倍。另外，依照我們民間機構的調查也指出，65歲以上老人的長照需求費用平均每個月是3萬元，所以一個65歲的退休人員，他的醫療費用加上長照費用大概要3萬6,000元，那你剛才講說，平均退休金大概就是5萬3,000元，五萬三這是怎麼樣一個概念？剛才講的醫療跟長照費用就占據了大概70%左右。依主計總處家庭支出五等分位的調查數字，我們來做一個比較，若是戶長在65歲以上，以中間等分的第三等分來看，家庭每月支出高達6萬元，所以依照您剛才講的，以現在的所得替代率來講，一個月才五萬三，根本不足夠他退休後的生活的費用。所以我要先問次長，因為我看到今天內政部和人事總處都認為不宜做修正，次長，你認為在這種條件下，如何來保障我們的退警也好，消防人員也好，或者是海巡人員，他們在退休後生活有足夠的保障？"],["張次長秋元：這個退撫的部分，跟委員報告，就是在退撫法裡面其實是有相關的機制，就是它也不是一定就這樣持續下去都不變的，就是在第九十二條……"],["林委員思銘：次長，我講得很清楚，明顯看起來就是不足，然後現在我們要修法你又不贊成，那你到底要如何來保障他們的退休生活？"],["張次長秋元：這邊修法我們不贊成，最大的爭點是在同一個基金繳同樣的錢，然後我們現在要他們領不一樣的錢……"],["林委員思銘：那你告訴我，你要如何加強他們的保障？那你告訴我啊，你告訴所有退警啊。"],["張次長秋元：退休的部分在退撫法第六十七條有雙重的調整機制，一個就是在CPI正負5%的時候就會做調整，然後第二個就是每四年也一定要做檢討和調整。"],["林委員思銘：這個我們都瞭解，但是明顯的這些還是不足啦。"],["張次長秋元：我們在這方面會再去加強。"],["林委員思銘：我們今天也有提案，剛才羅智強委員也有提出一個臨時提案，針對這部分，請警政署對於未來要如何保障我們的警察人員退休的生活……"],["張次長秋元：大家一起來努力。"],["林委員思銘：跟我們銓敘部一起來溝通討論。"],["張次長秋元：這個大家一起來努力，今天的修法真的會有很多……"],["林委員思銘：一個月內要提出說明。我想今天你也說不清楚，請你跟警政署一樣，就是在三個月內提出未來如何保障退休的警察人員、消防人員及我們這次修法的海巡人員他們的退休生活，請說明如何保障，在三個月內提出書面說明。"],["張次長秋元：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。","另外，現在請海巡署張忠龍署長。署長，關於6月9日發生的陸男開快艇直衝淡水一事，海委會管碧玲主委坦承系統沒有失靈，但人出了問題。海巡也承認相關人員誤判，並表示會針對北部分署的分署長以及雷操手共10名人員，分別提出申誡跟記過處分，那我現在要跟你直球對決，請問署長，除了人員的懲處外，對於內部人員的訓練、管理及執勤時的落實，目前發現的問題，主要是哪些層面有疏漏？"],["張署長忠龍：特別跟委員報告，我們整個雷達偵蒐是在6海里就發現，然後我們逐級包括守望哨、安檢所都有監控，但是他們把這個目標當成一般進到我們的河道裡淡水區域的這些漁船，包括海釣船或民用的這些船，他們以常態性研判，這個船是在航向、航速不變的情況下直接進來的，所以在人員的研判上面，我們只能說，根據這個部分，他們當場研判是有疏漏的。"],["林委員思銘：署長，現在民間都流傳說，真的是我們的海防出了這麼大的紕漏，大家都在看笑話，所以說如何能夠準確落實執行我們的海防的措施？你剛才簡單就講說是因為人員的誤判，怎麼會出現誤判的這種情況呢？"],["張署長忠龍：跟委員報告，因為當地的現場有五、六十艘船，那個時間點剛好是他們要進港的時間點，根據同仁經驗的研判，他們判定這個船是要進到河道裡面的我們自己國籍的漁船，所以才會造成這樣的誤判，針對剛剛委員指導的部分，我們已經在加強整個勤務的教育跟訓練，還有雷操手的研判……"],["林委員思銘：署長，何時可以提出改善的措施？當初誤判的主因，你還是沒有講得很清楚，這個部分我也請你在一個禮拜之內提出相關的改善措施，以及說明這一次為什麼會誤判的原因，在一個禮拜之內向本席與內政委員會、司法及法制委員會的委員，提出相關的書面說明，好不好？"],["張署長忠龍：好。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。署長，我多嘴兩句啦，如果這樣子可以，那以後槍砲跟毒品都很好進來，我講這樣應該沒錯吧？那一艘小艇可以載的毒品應該滿多的，如果照這樣講，這個都沒事，這個都覺得是正常，誤判為國內的小漁船，那也不用什麼緝毒，也不用國境防守，然後就直接讓他這麼簡單就進來，我是不認同這個說辭啦。"],["張署長忠龍：報告委員，我們會加強我們的教育訓練。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝署長。","我們接下來請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":8.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.83971875,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.294718750000001,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":32.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.78471875,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.993468750000005,"end":56.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.659093750000004,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.16909375,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.92846875,"end":62.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.07159375,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.12221875,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.97784375,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.97284375000001,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.02346875,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.85346875,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.91221875000001,"end":84.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.96284375,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.94159375000001,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.16409375,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.46721875,"end":106.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.42784375000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.66346875,"end":120.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.53096875000001,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.74596875,"end":123.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.72471875000001,"end":165.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.18221875,"end":167.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.51534375,"end":178.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.99034375000002,"end":184.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.71096875,"end":192.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.89096875,"end":206.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.47096875000003,"end":208.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.50471875000002,"end":210.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.78284375,"end":216.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.80721875,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.65034375000002,"end":224.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.70096875000002,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.14784375000002,"end":224.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.26596875,"end":225.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.02471875,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.04159375,"end":229.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.21034375000002,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.96971875000003,"end":230.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.81346875000003,"end":237.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.84721875000002,"end":232.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.20471875,"end":243.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.84596875000003,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.02659375000002,"end":263.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.04346875000002,"end":248.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.54284375000003,"end":262.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.06159375000004,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.09534375000004,"end":263.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.61846875000003,"end":264.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.15846875,"end":265.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.13284375,"end":266.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.14971875000003,"end":279.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.18346875000003,"end":268.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.30846875000003,"end":277.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.33784375,"end":277.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.93659375000004,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.48909375,"end":281.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.51846875,"end":286.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.32721875000004,"end":291.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.34409375,"end":291.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.44534375,"end":315.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.94909375000003,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.7872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那三次我沒有爭取到。現在我們發掘現正發掘的能量物流很重要。正在跟國產市在存貨一個塊土地要來尊重這個能量物流的中心。我希望你要把錢留著啊。那最後一端,你也答應我,這個容能繼續存在嘛。"},{"start":73.007,"end":91.216,"text":" 我跟委員說明齁,第一期的冷鏈計畫在今年度結束,那我們正在積極地爭取第二期的冷鏈計畫,這第一個跟委員說明的。第二個部分,在我的構想跟我們部裡面的規劃裡面,冷鏈物流我們會在台灣變成一個冷鏈物流網絡,它不是單點的。"},{"start":92.156,"end":104.826,"text":" bicy 現在很多區域冷戀物流中心是縣市政府去處理的單點,我們會接到那個農民端的這些集貨廠,所以變成一個網絡,那絕對不會讓苗栗這邊缺席,不會讓苗栗這邊缺席⋯⋯"},{"start":115.855,"end":123.278,"text":"因為是地方政府要提出需求。那這個部分我想我們也會再做提及的溝通。我想中央跟地方合作。我們會盡量齁,就是根據他們所提的規劃。"},{"start":136.923,"end":162.488,"text":"我沒有看到計劃,計劃跟經費我想我們會請我們的同仁去協調啦,就是在一個適當的方式。你不要講這樣,我計劃雙上市,每一個縣市都有苗栗縣不能缺席,你給我答應一句話就好了。我剛才已經說了齁,在整個網絡裡面,物流網絡裡面苗栗縣絕對不會缺席,不會缺掉這個網絡。"},{"start":164.728,"end":182.33,"text":"還有你也一直曉得我一直在關於龍鳳漁港那個直銷中心的一個改建。那直銷中心的改建目前也進入到一個關鍵的工程設計建造及興建的階段。"},{"start":183.271,"end":204.884,"text":"那在今年的3月,我也邀請我們的一夜市長張市長,他也答應我設計經費970萬。啊到現在,紫雲樓梯上沒有看那970萬,你這樣去跟我答應,到台港跟我答應下來,我都下不了台啊,到現在都沒有下來。"},{"start":206.607,"end":229.857,"text":" 我跟委員說明齁,就是在整個龍鳳漁港本身的一個整理規劃,我們曾經投入了大概673萬嘛,去做一個規劃。那現在規劃期末報告出來了。那基本上我們會去支持,但是不是沒有條件的支持,我們會看它的規劃的規模啦。因為有時候齁,我們怕齁,每個地方政府或相關的它的規模太大,結果"},{"start":230.657,"end":247.705,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":247.865,"end":274.92,"text":"但是,我現在要跟你講,跟部長報告一下,你那幾人的碧莎漁港、桃園的永安漁港、新池的南寮漁港、台中的吳崎漁港都創造了很多人流,變成一個觀光休閒漁港。我在廟裡都沒有,看起來你很照顧七水的富士苗栗,所以這個龍鳳漁港現在要送進來了。"},{"start":277.052,"end":295.047,"text":"啊你說派太龐大、太小。我要求的不多。你幫我建設好就好。我現在再跟你講一個問題。你高雄全鎮漁港改建的經費86億。81億多。沒有啊。86億我的意思。81億多。86、81。反正超過幾十億嘛。你是中央以專案來全額負擔。"},{"start":303.354,"end":313.217,"text":"高雄市政府一家斤就免存。我都問議長現在把你踢出來多花錢而已。零頭都不夠。我只有3億而已。啊你看要幫我嗎?不幫你。高雄的話我不曉得怎麼有這樣特殊的優待。86億、81億。零頭我們都不找。"},{"start":324.381,"end":335.738,"text":"你也想到可能我們的財政困難,因為你了解我講話這麼實在的人啊,我也不會跟你們提要求我再做事前都是要清打細算,要做出最好的。"},{"start":336.616,"end":358.404,"text":"了解。我跟委員報告齁,前瞻漁港是一類漁港,是由我們那個農業部直接管轄。齁,所以它是一個全能負擔,是因為是我們一類漁港我們管轄的部分。同時前瞻漁港是全台灣唯一的一個遠洋漁業的母港。齁,這個部分我想我也很清楚。那龍鳳漁港我剛才說了就是說,因為我們支持了這些規劃,我們後續會看規劃的一個規模齁,我們會給予適當的協助。"},{"start":363.046,"end":382.839,"text":"因為我接到了消息這樣子,我也跟陳部長,前任的陳部長一次答應給我9000萬要去改憲,我把他拒絕掉。我感覺這個泡泡腸通,我不希望做這樣的事情。我要替我們農業部、ECS打造一個榮耕漁港的名氣。現在給你們這邊挑出來什麼樣?"},{"start":385.2,"end":409.302,"text":"我希望你能全有負擔,因為苗栗縣的財政確實困難啦。你大發慈悲一下,把那個地方改造好。我報告議員報告齁,就是因為限制了一個財政財力的關係,當然苗栗縣如果財政有些困難,我們的比例是會根據不同的限制能力啦。好啦,那我也跟委員報告齁。因為我看你們對綠色的就全有的佈置,對比較藍色的話齁。"},{"start":410.543,"end":427.439,"text":"我以我的態度絕對不會這樣,我絕對看他的重要性啦。我們看他的重要性啦。所以你來當部長是我期望的欸。我說這個人很好。你當代理次長的時候,我不是在跟你吵架了欸。我不會。因為從你講話裡面我都想你很實在很務實的人啊。"},{"start":428.58,"end":451.249,"text":"現在我今天的重點一個冷戶威廉中心苗栗縣不要缺席第二個龍鳳漁港要取得不多那個叫做龍鳳漁後直銷我現在只要取一億其他的地方我會找別的單位來要你來存錢喔來幫忙苗栗縣好不好我撒樣"},{"start":452.705,"end":455.307,"text":"我不會輕易的答應任何、承諾任何的實際的經費。我看不到那個計畫書的規模。我絕對不會輕易的,但是我"},{"start":469.995,"end":497.962,"text":"我同意苗栗現在物流的部分不能那個網絡一定會在那龍鳳漁港本身的建設有它的必要性因為我們看的評估報告是的確有必要所以我要看那個計畫書的內容我們會給予適當的協助我跟保廉說我們的那個龍岳市漁業科有時候沒錢膽子就小了寫的計畫太小都被我罵過了但是你配偶一下觀念大溪谷計畫"},{"start":499.36,"end":523.695,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":525.348,"end":545.175,"text":"我承諾我會協助,就看他的計畫的規模跟他的相關的配置。好,好,一定啊,拜託完成我這樣。好,謝謝。我就對名利先有交代啦,好不好。拜託一下,我們都很了解這樣的情形,謝謝。好,謝謝。對,溫柔的質詢。"}]}},{"id":"153972","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153972","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0c0c38839b5509d568ff7e0bc1ebc50214d862afa46997d4e3a001556f561b11a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:24:33 - 11:32:09","影片長度":"00:07:36","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:24:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:32:09+08:00","duration":456,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時24分）麻煩有請人事行政總處的李副人事長。"],["主席：麻煩請副人事長。"],["翁委員曉玲：還有銓敘部的張次長。"],["主席：請張次長。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天是針對有關於警消人員的退撫年改要進行修正，看了人事行政總處及銓敘部所做的報告說明，基本上是不贊成這樣的一個修改，我還記得我之前質詢人事總處的時候，曾經問過人事總長一件事情，就是軍公教、警消、司法人員工作型態差異很大，尤其是軍公教，這三個完全是不同的領域，然後再加上警消，其實本來就應該要有不同的俸給、福利和退撫制度，也各自有各自的相關規範法規，可是為什麼每一次只要談到年改年金的時候，一定要公教合併？今天談到警消人員的問題，就凸顯出把公務人員涵蓋到警消人員，其實工作性質顯不相當，基本上差異很大，我想請問人事總處，有沒有就這部分去思考過？還有，我上次其實已經提醒過，你們到底有沒有著手去將這些不同工作類型的公務人員分開，然後各自有各自的福利及退撫保障？"],["李副人事長秉洲：跟委員報告，軍公教本來就是軍的體系就有一套，然後公教分途，教也自行有一套，那另外的公務人員的部分就是有自行一套，警消就是在我們的公務人員的範圍裡面，我們的公務人員一般用的普通法叫公務人員任用法，公務人員任用法裡面有一條是特種人事制度，像警消這方面的警察人員條例，但是身分別還是公務人員。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，這就是我們在講的，就是希望人事總處這邊可以與時俱進，要去檢討現在公務人員任用條例裡面的相關規定，明明我們就知道警消的工作性質其實是介於軍人跟一般文職公務員之間，他們的工作特性、勞務性質其實是跟一般的文職公務員是不一樣的，這也是為什麼今天警消人員希望能夠多爭取他們的一些福利，本席基本上是支持，應該要強化多保障警消人員的福利待遇及退撫，可是就可以發現，其實我們政府的思維始終還是停留在六十年前對於廣義公務員的思維，可是現在的情形已經不一樣，時代在改變，我覺得釜底抽薪的做法就是應該要將公教人員更細分，尤其是公務人員這個部分，應該要更細分。本席希望人事總處或銓敘部可以好好去檢討這個制度，不曉得有沒有可能，你們近期會提出相關的法案來進行檢討嗎？"],["張次長秋元：我來跟翁委員報告一下，其實我們現在的制度其實就是翁委員剛剛講的、翁委員期待的，現行的制度就是這樣規劃，比如說，剛才有報告，警消俸級的設計，在前端的時候就跟同等級的公務員其實是不一樣的，從警佐三階、二階、一階到警正四階，像警正四階相當於六職等，但它的俸級結構的設計是已經到達一般公務員的八職等的年功頂，它是高二個，所以當然是我們對警消的重視。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝次長您剛剛說明，既然俸給制度已經不一樣了，退撫制度當然也應該不一樣……"],["張次長秋元：不一樣，所以他退休會多一萬塊。同等級，他跟一般公務員比，因為之前繳費就高嘛，所以是不一樣的，不一樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，瞭解。那現在的情況就是說，現在退休之後的所得替代率是一樣的，在這樣一致的情況之下，會造成大家覺得不太公平。我希望這個部分其實應該還是要去做更細緻的檢討。","另外，我還想請教一個問題，我想兩位也知道，我們立法院也提出了公教人員的年改法案，預期可能也會通過，我不知道現在銓敘部和人事總處有沒有預做準備，如果我們的法案通過之後，那麼之前逐年下降的所得替代率就會停止下降，你們現在準備好了嗎？"],["張次長秋元：我們在委託精算當中，但是這個可以預期的就是對財務的衝擊會很大。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在有在做準備嘛？如果考慮到公務人員的留才和保障公務人員的辛勞等等，我覺得這樣的一個改革，基本上是有必要，有意義的。","另外，有關海巡人員，現在是分三類，有軍人，有警察，還有一般的文職人員，他們目前是不是各自適用各自的退撫制度？他們的薪資應該是依照各自的職務類型。"],["張次長秋元：跟委員報告，現在退撫只有三大塊，一個是軍人，一個是公務人員，一個是教育人員，所有的公務人員就是在同一個區塊。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是海巡署裡面屬於軍人身分的……"],["張次長秋元：軍人就是用軍人的。"],["翁委員曉玲：軍人適用軍人的退撫嘛，警察還是適用公務人員的嘛？"],["張次長秋元：警察跟一般公務人員就是適用公務人員的。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，對。那如果說，就這個部分的話，確實可能我們這次修法通過的話，要針對海巡人員這樣比較特殊的機關，它的人員性質的不同，我認為說他們的退撫制度其實還是要有所區別。"],["張次長秋元：對，我的意見跟委員有點類似，就像消防人員，剛剛蕭署長也有講到，他們也有一般公務人員，不是全部都是警察人員，這個區隔下去以後，一樣是消防人員，可能領的又不一樣，這個其實我們很難對他們做說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解，就是說，因為你們基本上是反對警消人員的年改。"],["張次長秋元：不是，我們是建議維持現制。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望你們也能夠提出一個更積極、更有建設性的替代方案，假設你們認為這樣子的修改是不合理的話，那至少要區別出警消人員是跟一般文職公務員是不一樣的，他們可能是介於軍人跟公務員之間，那麼比較合理的所得替代率是什麼？我希望你們可以儘速提出來相關的建議方案，好不好？好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林德福","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","楊曜","李彥秀","柯建銘","傅崐萁","高金素梅"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 委員蘇清泉等27 人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草\n案」案、(二)委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委\n員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王鴻薇等29人\n擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員\n人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十\n五條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修\n正草案」案、( 八) 委員林思銘等23 人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、\n(九)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.21096875,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.657218750000002,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.80034375,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.98971875,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.18284375,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.42784375,"end":116.68784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.06721875000001,"end":123.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.74596875,"end":122.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.91034375000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.94409375000001,"end":124.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.34909375000001,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.21784375000001,"end":129.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.52971875,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.47034375,"end":134.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.33471875,"end":138.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.77721875,"end":146.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.48909375,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.08409375000002,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.98784375000002,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.30409375000002,"end":225.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.57346875000002,"end":229.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.82221875000002,"end":229.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.26096875000002,"end":234.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.45846875,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.58846875,"end":247.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.24971875000003,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.43034375000002,"end":263.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.51846875,"end":255.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.69534375,"end":258.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.89721875000004,"end":262.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.77034375,"end":263.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.82096875,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.85471875,"end":264.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.87159375000005,"end":266.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.78284375000004,"end":270.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.57971875000004,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.27971875000003,"end":271.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.58721875000003,"end":318.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.50221875,"end":280.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.73784375,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.86409375,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.03159375,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.70659375,"end":294.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.95971875000004,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.68909375000004,"end":327.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.80659375000005,"end":355.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.32971875000004,"end":330.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.94909375000003,"end":335.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.92471875,"end":357.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.42221875,"end":362.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.13471875000005,"end":368.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.96159375,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.12159375000005,"end":365.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.15909375,"end":369.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.45846875,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.86346875000004,"end":375.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.62659375000004,"end":383.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.92971875,"end":379.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.07284375,"end":381.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.14846875,"end":385.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.27034375000005,"end":400.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.06159375000004,"end":398.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.25971875000005,"end":413.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.50659375000004,"end":421.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.78909375,"end":416.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.85534375000003,"end":454.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.06159375000004,"end":426.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.03596875000005,"end":427.23846875000004},{"speaker":"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«警察人員人事條例第三三草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":119.116,"end":145.988,"text":"跟委員報告軍公教本來軍就是軍的體系就一套公教分圖教也自行一套那另外的公務人員部分就是自行一套所以警消就是在我們的公務人員的範圍裡面我們公務人員一般是用的普通法叫公務人任用法公務人任用法裡面有一條是特種人事制度就是警消這方面的警察人但是他身分別還是公務人員"},{"start":146.573,"end":165.435,"text":"是這件事我們在講就是這個也是希望人事總書這邊可以與時俱進要去檢討現在公務人員任用條例裡面的相關規定明明我們就知道警消的工作的性質他其實是介於軍人跟公務員一般文職公務員之間那他的工作的特性他的勞務的性質"},{"start":166.656,"end":187.55,"text":"其實是跟一般的文職的公務員是不一樣的那麼這也是為什麼今天警消人員希望能夠多爭取他們的一些福利那本席基本上是支持應該要強化多保障警消人員的福利待遇以及他的退福可是呢就可以發現其實我們的政府的思維始終還是停留在這個可能60年前對於這種廣義公務員的這個思維可是現在的情形已經不一樣時代在改變"},{"start":197.216,"end":205.002,"text":"三草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等27人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正三草案．一）委員"},{"start":227.734,"end":251.528,"text":"我來跟國務委員報告一下其實我們現在的制度其實就是國務委員剛剛講的國務委員期待的就是現行的制度就是這樣規劃譬如說剛剛其實有報告就是警消他的這個縫級的設計在前端的時候就跟同等級的公務員其實是不一樣的他從那個警左三階二階一階到警正四階"},{"start":252.489,"end":253.73,"text":"警察人員人事條例三草案案"},{"start":274.601,"end":276.362,"text":"三草案．立法院提出公教人員年改法案"},{"start":303.473,"end":305.755,"text":"二）委員余琦等19人擬具 «警察人員人事條例修正第三"},{"start":328.911,"end":330.252,"text":"條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及增訂一條條文及"},{"start":358.539,"end":385.085,"text":"是依照各自的這個職務的類型跟委員報告現在退幅只有三大塊一個是軍人一個是公務人員一個是教育人員那所有的公務人員就是在同一個區塊但是那軍人海巡署裡面的屬於軍人身份的人他使用軍人嗎那說警察還是使用公務人員嗎警察跟一般公務人員就是使用公務人員"},{"start":385.685,"end":411.847,"text":"對對那如果說就這個部分的話確實可能我們這次修法如果通過的話要在這個針對像海巡人員這樣比較特殊的機關他的人員性質的不同我認為說其實還是要有所區別了他們的退伏制度我的意見跟委員有點類似就像消防人員剛剛蕭署長也有講到他沒有一般公務人員不是全部都是警察人員這個區隔下去以後會一樣是消防消防人員他可能領留不一樣"},{"start":412.568,"end":412.708,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":428.712,"end":434.736,"text":"條文及增訂附表三草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具:「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具 ．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、內政委員蘇清泉等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"153971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba03544bf615f10ad8ac65fab1c545da5d04d862afa46997d4e74d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:19:40 - 11:32:43","影片長度":"00:13:03","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:19:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:32:43+08:00","duration":783,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":585,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時19分）次長喝完水了，有請次長，謝謝。"],["主席：次長。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席、謝謝次長。次長，我很開心你剛才回應洪孟楷委員說，你自己和張廖萬堅次長都即將要跳下去全臺巡講，我們非常期待看到這個報告。我的小孩子今年高中畢業，3年前我認真的參加了學校所舉辦的每一場講座，確實，這就扭轉了我對學習歷程的焦慮跟恐懼。後來孩子們在學校的幫忙之下，他們的表現也確實沒有走向軍備競賽那條路，所以宣講真的很重要，就拜託教育部了，謝謝。"],["葉次長丙成：是，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。次長，這是我的Q版，這是我的小孩用AI幫我做的。我的小孩跟你一樣要走上理工的道路，而我就是現在所有人最焦慮的，也就是即將要被取代的中文系畢業的，我研究所唸的是教育所，現在我們2個人的畫面就是所有人最擔心的，就是未來我的工作會不會就被次長你這樣優秀科系的人所取代？這是現在最真實的畫面，我可能是那最弱勢的相關學系畢業的，次長，你怎麼看目前大家所焦慮的這個議題？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，這2年我一直被找去跟大家演講「AI時代怎麼樣才能夠不被取代」，其實我要跟大家談一件事，舉個例子，我常跟大家說，我認為最不會被取代的工作就是「sales」。因為sales很重要的就是要建立人跟人之間的信任，它對人要瞭解，事實上，像過去我們在創業，我們有很多sales都是人文領域的，這只是一個例子，我不是說大家都要做sales，我要談的是……"],["陳委員培瑜：我剛差點以為次長建議我可以做sales。"],["葉次長丙成：沒有，我的意思是說，在AI的時代，因為如果你只有技術，很多時候、因為AI解決問題的能力很強，但是什麼問題值得解決只有「人」才會知道人的需求和對人的瞭解，其實我們現在在新創產業看到的是，只要是對人的需求夠瞭解的人，比如說：產品設計師，其實這些人現在是業界非常需要的，所以對人文的瞭解是很重要的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以次長，如果我把這張圖拿掉，我應該也不用太擔心我在中文系或是教育相關系所的學弟妹，他們的工作應該不會那麼快被取代對嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：不會。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且在你剛剛很多的政策中，確實，教育部有非常、非常多的規劃，包含剛剛也有很多委員問到，就是有關「重理工、輕人文」這件事情所產生的焦慮，相關的新聞也都出來了，甚至連建中和北一女的人文班也已經停招了。但是我知道教育部在這件事情上做了非常多的努力，可是我要給次長看一個比較殘酷的現實，我覺得這真的是我們要一起面對的困境。","紅色比較粗的這條線是所有大專院校學生的年增率，因為少子化的關係，當然這個數字是往下降，我相信這個次長非常瞭解。可是如果我們單獨看人文社會科系的年增率趨勢，近年來它下降的幅度遠遠超過大專院校所有學生的整體年增率。如果再把112年和113年加進去，我覺得這個數字應該更可怕。另外一個問題，我們來看科技類科，他們負增長的程度卻相對和緩，就是我剛才說的，所有的學生都往這裡去升學和想像自己未來的職涯，因為非常現實，看起來，這個產業的資源，不管是政府的資源、來自民間的投資或是相關科系的資源都會比較多。我剛說了，過往教育部有提出「高中生人文及社會科學基礎人才培育計畫」，甚至也有開設相關的經典班，次長，這個你剛才有很多的回答，我就不再多問，但是要如何確保這件事情真的有被執行，而且有真的照顧到學生的需求？甚至是像我，就算我現在開始認真的學習AI，我把它視為我個人終身的學習，可是如果讓我再回到大學，我可能還是想要走人文社會學這個學門，這真的是我的天賦，也是我的興趣，那教育部要如何支持像我們這樣的人？"],["葉次長丙成：我想跟委員報告，這就是為什麼接下來我們在大學、其實這已經有大學在做了，我們會用這些成功的案例，像：臺大、清大、成大這些有彈性學制的學校，譬如說：我們剛才提到臺大有校學式的制度或探索學習，基本上這個就可以讓學生選擇。也就是，如果我今天對資訊有興趣，那我就可以選十幾個學分的資訊領域專長課程，然後我也可以選心理領域專長或中文領域專長的課程。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個制度目前你們已經跟大學端討論過了嗎？或者你們有問過高中生有關這樣的設計嗎？因為高中生馬上會遇到的問題就是：我升上大學之後，我還不知道你們大人打算這樣調整！我的小孩目前是高三，他可能不知道就上了大學！我相信任何的政策出發點絕對都是良善的，但是相關的配套跟執行，還有跟現場的對話，我想這個所有教育委員會的委員都想要跟教育部一起努力，後續是不是有更多的資料？還有我剛才說的，這個必須要跟現場積極的溝通，好嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：是，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為我的時間有限，我們就先講到這邊。另外，有關來臺留學生的事情，很多大學會認為這可能是少子化的解方之一。確實，目前吸引國際學生已經是世界各國的趨勢，不是只有臺灣想要做這件事情。我們的辦公室整理完資料後發現，確實，目前來臺的留學生人數已經逐漸回到疫情前的人數。可是我們發現，有很多都是來自東南亞的留學生，有關中國留學生的部分，賴清德總統在就職時有提到，他希望在對等、尊嚴的情況下，促進中國留學生有學位來臺的可能性。教育部在5月24日相關的新聞稿裡也有說，你們希望明年5月底可以公開相關的辦法，也許我今天還問不到進度，但是我希望這件事情教育部務必在對等、尊嚴的情況下去促成這件事情，目前你們的規劃是什麼？大方向就好。"],["葉次長丙成：我們的大方向就是，如果明年對岸核可他們的學生能夠來臺的話，我們明年就可以招生。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，請務必注重對等跟尊嚴好嗎？我相信很多人到臺灣來是想要唸AI相關科系，所以我要再次的請次長注意你剛才所說的相關配套，好嗎？後面的幕僚請回，謝謝！","接下來，次長，2017年臺灣發動體育改革，當時你絕對是很重要的助力，次長你自己都笑了。但是次長你現在進到教育部之後，我不知道你有沒有開始瞭解體育改革相關的阻力跟過往舊傳統文化所面臨的困境？剛剛在我來之前，人本教育基金會有召開一個記者會，記者會的內容我之後會跟次長分享。我在現場聽到一個非常悲痛的故事，我跟雅琳委員都在現場，我們2位身為媽媽，我們聽到一個孩子告訴我們說，有一個不當收費的教練、超時訓練的教練，一個不當體罰、勒索孩子和家長的教練。他為了對付這些不聽話的小孩，他甚至把小孩丟在比賽完荒涼的河濱球場，不讓他上車，不接他回學校。甚至出發的時候，擺明的就把他放在學校門口，讓他看著所有同學都坐上校隊的車出發去比賽，他已經不止一次這樣來來回回的教訓他，而這個現象他們找了監察院，也找了體育署，但是過往的這些勢力沒有辦法幫助到這個小孩！我們要告訴體育署，這絕對不會是個案！過去這一年半來，我們的辦公室已經接到過非常、非常多的個案，我們發現它有整體通案的問題，次長，你自己怎麼看體育改革這件事情？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我上任之前所講過的話，我都沒辦法迴避。"],["陳委員培瑜：真的，而且網路會幫我們記下來。"],["葉次長丙成：其實我要提一件事情，那就是轉學競賽這件事情，其實之前在體育署的公聽會裡，我就有發言，教練跟球員、學生有權力不對等的關係。"],["陳委員培瑜：非常不對等。"],["葉次長丙成：如果今天還有類似轉學競賽這種規定，其實這有可能會讓這種權力不對等的關係變成不當管教，甚至變成性侵犯的溫床。所以就這件事情，其實我上任前，我就認為這件事情應該要有所……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你上任後呢？"],["葉次長丙成：我上任後，體育署不歸我……"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道。"],["葉次長丙成：我一直都有提供建議給體育署。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但你絕對支持嘛！而且之後體育署要升格，我相信你跟張廖次長應該都會支持部長的作法，對不對？而且你還是會繼續支持改革。現在有一個比較嚴重而且緊急的事情要拜託次長一起來關心，雖然你說這不是你業管的，林怡君你認識嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：不好意思！我不認識。"],["陳委員培瑜：8年過去了，林怡君透過去年世錦賽冠軍的身分，今年再次取得奧運門票，前2天我們在愛爾達電視上看到這位選手的專訪，他很難過的說：他從19歲到43歲，他期待的就只是希望他們可以讓怡君的教練隨隊參加奧運，而這個「他們」指的就是國訓中心跟單項協會，這是發生什麼事情呢？為什麼他的教練不能跟他一起去參加奧運比賽呢？我們來看一下。在協會相關的規定裡，選訓的教練必須由選訓委員會評估具奪牌實力選手之教練為優先。次長，我們來談一談奪牌實力，我們來看一下他的排名。另外一個協會的說法就比較客觀，它說「按照選手的排名順序做為遴選的依據」。下一張，這是今年國際射擊總會奧運積分排名與本屆教練遴選結果，排序第一、二、三名就是A、B、C、D這3個教練可以跟著選手去，可是我剛跟你報告的林怡君，他的奧運積分排名最高是第11名，可是他的教練卻不能跟他一起去，而且這種狀況屢次發生！我剛剛已經舉例了，在當項協會中，他們對於遴選教練，就是有哪些教練可以跟著選手一起到現場，每一個協會的作法都如此不同，身為單項協會的主管機關：體育署跟教育部，次長，你怎麼看這個問題？這是當年非常用力倡議要體育改革的你所願意看到的現象嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：委員，這件事情我可不可以請體育署就這件事情來做補充？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可以，謝謝！因為奧運出發在即。"],["洪副署長志昌：是，跟委員報告，事實上，每一個單項的特性不同，射擊的部分，今年有7位取得參賽的資格，林怡君屬於飛靶，飛靶的部分我們有4位選手參賽，所以我們有：手槍、飛靶和25米的選手，所以會依照不同的項目……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我剛才這個說法你可以接受嗎？所以你現在是要公開的說，按照選訓委員會自行評估具奪牌實力……可是你再看這一張，林怡君的奪牌實力是第11名，其他可以被派去的教練他們的奪牌實力排分在那邊。"],["洪副署長志昌：因為飛靶……"],["陳委員培瑜：還是我們會後再討論？"],["洪副署長志昌：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為如果體育署還是繼續用這樣不客觀的標準，放任單項協會可以繼續自行決定這件事情，我覺得、剛剛他已經說了，他從19歲到43歲，他的奢望如此卑微。"],["洪副署長志昌：跟委員報告，對不起！因為教練的遴選有一定的標準，每一項項目都有標準，而且……"],["陳委員培瑜：但是這個標準是你們體育署每一個單項協會都可以掌控得到的嗎？你們對每一個選手真的都是公平的嗎？每次奧運後都會發生相關的事件、類似的事情，我只是要問，我身為執政黨的委員，我們當然願意捍衛行政院所有的政策……"],["洪副署長志昌：我們會後再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是執政的委員也想要在公開、透明的改革路上，陪伴這些政策所服務的每一個人，從我們關注的學生、青少年到相關的選手，到各式各樣的企業、社會上的每一個人。在體育這件事情上，我自己都覺得這有很大的困境，因為我們不知道到底要怎麼樣跟你們溝通，你們才願意公開、透明，用民主的方法去對待選手及和協會溝通。"],["洪副署長志昌：因為教練的遴選都會公告，這個沒有問題啦！我們再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們會再次跟體育署討論，如果我們沒有辦法在今天有共識的話，為什麼我要問次長？次長，麻煩你，所有的願望都非常卑微，所有的選手都不應該是國家奪牌的工具，所有的體育改革都必須要從服務基層做起！我們每天坐在辦公室開這些會，但是為了奪牌，取得光榮的那一刻，所有的選手都在現場辛苦著，我相信我們都必須要清楚的知道。","我最後的訴求，謝謝！主席，不好意思，最後一張。我要積極的要求重新檢視奧運教練遴選資格客觀設定和公平性，不要再讓協會私設刑堂，讓選手只能孤獨面對。還有，盤點參賽證件（P卡）調度的可能性，避免相關的現像，我相信體育署非常清楚。","再來，我真心想要拜託葉次，我們從地方老師出來，我關心選手和所有的學生，我想要拜託葉次，我們一起關心體育改革，繼續支持部長和張廖次長在相關體育的行政監督和改革上我們一起努力。"],["葉次長丙成：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝葉次和主席，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。麻煩體育署持續的跟陳培瑜委員溝通。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","林倩綺","葛如鈞","葉元之","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","賴士葆","林思銘","陳亭妃","翁曉玲","范雲","羅智強","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","吳春城"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.29596875,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.160343750000003,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.00659375,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.345968750000004,"end":36.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.47659375,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.885343750000004,"end":54.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.27971875,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.92659375000001,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.46659375,"end":103.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.04034375,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.27221875000001,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.31034375000002,"end":239.65596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.37721875,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.30471875,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.99346875,"end":268.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.34784375000004,"end":350.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.40721875,"end":292.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.59221875000003,"end":298.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.13659375000003,"end":357.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.95409375,"end":371.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.09096875,"end":416.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.19784375,"end":419.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.38721875000005,"end":448.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.24784375,"end":452.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.92221875,"end":455.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.44534375,"end":454.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.03159375,"end":475.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.05471875,"end":470.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.19284375,"end":490.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.77721875000003,"end":491.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.56596875,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.84846875000005,"end":493.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.43034375,"end":512.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.71034375,"end":512.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.72721875,"end":513.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.6215937500001,"end":543.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.21596875,"end":545.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.05534375,"end":559.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.79159375,"end":568.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.4609687500001,"end":607.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.5478437500001,"end":612.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.0872187500001,"end":617.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.31846875,"end":620.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.01846875,"end":620.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.98034375,"end":638.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.29409375,"end":652.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.1440937500001,"end":654.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.1397187499999,"end":655.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.8103437500001,"end":657.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.85659375,"end":669.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.97721875,"end":668.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.11221875,"end":668.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.9853437500001,"end":674.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.9678437500002,"end":712.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.2778437500001,"end":689.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.8815937500001,"end":717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謝謝次長次長我很開心你剛回應了紅夢凱委員說你自己還有張亮萬堅次長都即將跳下去選台尋獎我們非常期待看到這個報告我的小孩今年高中畢業三年前我認真參加了學校辦的每一場講座確實就扭轉了我對學習歷程的焦慮跟恐懼後來孩子們的表現在學校的幫忙之下確實就沒有走上那一條軍備競賽所以選獎應該真的很重要就拜託教育部了 謝謝"},{"start":40.972,"end":54.428,"text":"市長這是我的Q版這是我的小孩用AI幫我做的我的小孩跟你一樣是要走上離公的道路而我就是現在所有人最焦慮的即將會被取代中文系畢業的研究所念的是教育所"},{"start":55.96,"end":72.379,"text":"我們兩個現在的畫面就是所有人最擔心的就是會不會未來我的工作就被次長您這樣優秀科系的人才所取代就是現在這個最真實的畫面我可能是那個最弱勢的相關學系畢業的次長你怎麼看目前大家在焦慮的這個議題"},{"start":74.625,"end":101.791,"text":"跟委員報告好了因為這兩年我一直被找去跟大家談這個演講說AI時代怎麼樣才能夠不被取代那我其實一直跟大家談一件事比如舉個例子我常常跟大家講說我認為一個不會被取代的工作叫做Sales因為Sales它很重要是要建立人跟人之間的信任那它對人要了解那事實上像過去我們在創業我們對的Sales都是人文領域的人那這只是個例子我不是說大家都要做Sales"},{"start":105.052,"end":129.123,"text":"我的意思是說在AI的時代因為你如果只有技術很多時候AI解決問題能力很強但是什麼問題值得解決是只有人才知道人的需求所以對人的了解其實反而我們現在新創我們在業界看到的是對人的需求夠了解的人比如說很多像產品設計師很多這些人這些人其實是我們認為是業界現在非常非常需要的"},{"start":129.603,"end":148.398,"text":"拜託,如果這張圖我就把它拿掉,我應該可以不要太擔心,我的學弟妹在中文系或是教育相關系所應該不會那麼快被取代,對嗎?而且在您剛剛很多的政策當中,確實教育部有非常非常多的規劃,包含剛剛也很多委員問到關於重理工輕人文這件事情,大家的焦慮,然後甚至"},{"start":149.219,"end":150.2,"text":"紅色的比較粗的這一條線呢是"},{"start":166.849,"end":191.942,"text":"所有大專院校學生的年增率那因為少子化的關係當然這個數字是往下降我相信次長非常了解可是如果我們單獨看人文社會科系的年增率趨勢它下降的幅度在近年遠遠超過大專院院校所有學生的整體年增率如果再把1213加進去我覺得應該會更可怕另外一個問題我們來看科技類科他們的負增長的程度卻相對的和緩"},{"start":192.762,"end":192.802,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":208.415,"end":214.88,"text":"教育部提出高中生人文及社會科學基礎人才培育計畫甚至也有去開相關的經典班"},{"start":238.055,"end":266.455,"text":"所以我想跟委員報告就是這是為什麼我們在大學我們接下來我們已經有大學在做那我們用這些成功的案例像臺大、清大、成大這些彈性學制就比如說我們剛剛提到臺大這個校學式的制度或是探索學習它基本上可以讓學生這樣就是說如果我今天我對資訊有興趣我可以選一個資訊領域專長大概是十幾個學分然後我也可以選一個心理的領域專長"},{"start":267.796,"end":295.472,"text":"這個制度你們目前有跟大學端討論過了嗎或者是你們有問過高中生相關這樣的設計嗎因為可能高中生他們馬上會遇到的問題就是我升上了大學之後我還不知道你們大人打算這樣調整的目前我的家小孩就是高三他可能都不知道他上了大學所以我相信任何的政策出發點絕對是良善的但是相關的配套跟執行還有跟現場的對話這邊我相信所有教育文化委員會委員都會想要跟教育部一起努力那後續是不是更多的資料還有我剛剛說必須要跟現場積極的溝通好嗎"},{"start":297.633,"end":324.304,"text":"但是我時間有限我們就先講到這邊另外關於來台留學生的事情大家很多大學會認為可能是少子化的解方之一目前確實吸引國際學生是全世界各國的趨勢不是只有台灣想要做這些事情我們辦公室整理完之後確實發現來台留學生逐漸回到疫情前的人數可是我們發現比較多資料是來自於東南亞的留學生關於中國留學生的部分賴清德總統在就職的時候他有提到"},{"start":325.064,"end":349.754,"text":"他希望促進在對等尊嚴的情況下促進中國留學生有學位來台的可能性教育部在5月24日的相關新聞稿也說你們希望可以在明年的5月底公開相關辦法那也許我今天還問不到進度但是我相信這件事情請教育部務必保持在對等尊嚴的情況下去促成這件事情目前你們的規劃是什麼大方向就好了"},{"start":350.274,"end":350.394,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":372.185,"end":388.854,"text":"次長在2017年的時候當年的台灣發動教育體育改革您絕對是一個很重要很重要的助力對次長你自己都笑了齁但是次長你現在進到教育部之後我不知道你有沒有開始知道相關體育改革的阻力跟過往的舊傳統文化他們所面臨的困境"},{"start":389.794,"end":413.433,"text":"剛剛我在來之前呢我們剛剛人本教育基金會開了一個記者會記者會的內容我之後會跟次長分享但是我在現場聽到一個非常悲痛的故事我跟雅琳委員都在現場我們兩個身為媽媽我們聽到一個孩子告訴我們說有一個不當收費的教練超時訓練的教練不當體罰勒索孩子勒索家長的教練他為了對付這些不聽話的小孩他甚至把小孩丟在比賽完荒涼的河濱的球場"},{"start":417.296,"end":419.24,"text":"不讓他上車、不接他回學校"},{"start":420.484,"end":448.003,"text":"甚至在出發的時候擺明就把他擺在學校門口看著所有他的同學坐上校隊的車出發去比賽來來回回教訓他不只一次而這個現象他們找了監察院也找了體育署但是過往這些勢力沒有辦法幫助到這些小孩但是我們告訴體育署這絕對不會是個案我們辦公室從過去一年半以來接到非常非常非常多的個案我們發現它有整體通案的問題次長你自己怎麼看體育改革這件事情"},{"start":448.623,"end":471.039,"text":"跟委員報告這個我上任之前我想講過的話都沒有辦法迴避啦真的而且網路會幫我們記下來我其實上任之前其實在有一件事情我在提的就是說這個競賽轉學競賽這件事是是因為我那時候在體育所公聽會因為我就在裡面發言就是說這個教練跟球員跟學生是其實有個權力不對等的關係非常不對等那你今天如果還有這類似這個這個轉學競賽這種很多的規定其實是"},{"start":476.303,"end":476.503,"text":"所以上任後呢?"},{"start":491.607,"end":491.787,"text":"李宜君,您認識嗎?"},{"start":513.662,"end":520.906,"text":"八年過去了林一軍他去年呢透過世錦賽冠軍的身份他今年再次取得奧運門票前兩天我們在愛爾達電視上看到對這位選手的專訪他很難過的說從19歲到43歲他的期待就只是希望他們可以讓一軍的教練隨隊參加奧運"},{"start":534.011,"end":541.315,"text":"而這個他們指的就是國訓中心跟單項協會發生什麼事情了呢?為什麼他的教練不能跟他一起去參加奧運比賽呢?我們來看一下"},{"start":545.084,"end":545.204,"text":"下一張"},{"start":569.72,"end":591.186,"text":"這個是今年他們只要發三張關於這個選奧運涉及總會奧運積分排名跟本屆教練領選結果123排序就是ABCD這上面三個教練可以跟著選手去可是我剛剛跟您報告的林怡君他的奧運積分最高排名是11可是他的教練卻不能跟他一起去而且屢次發生我剛剛已經舉例了"},{"start":594.207,"end":618.984,"text":"在單項協會當中對於領選教練哪些可以跟著一起選手到了現場每一個協會做法如此不同身為單項協會的主管機關體育署跟教育部次長你怎麼看這個問題這是當年您在立立非常用力的倡議體育改革您所願意看到的現象嗎我想這個委員這次我可以請體育署就這個事情做一個補充好可以謝謝因為即將奧運出發在即"},{"start":621.064,"end":638.062,"text":"是跟委員報告事實上每一個單項的一個特性不同那在射擊的部分今年有取得7位是7位那林毅晶屬於飛靶飛靶的部分我們有4位選手那所以有手槍有手槍的有飛靶的還有25米的選手所以會依照不同的"},{"start":638.342,"end":652.048,"text":"可是我剛剛這個說法你可以接受嗎?所以你現在是要公開說他們這個按照選訓委員會自行評估具奪牌實力可是你再看到這一張林益君他的奪牌實力是11那其他可以被派去的教練他們的奪牌實力排分在那邊欸"},{"start":654.369,"end":669.401,"text":"還是我們會後再討論?因為五國體育署要繼續這樣用不客觀的標準放任單項協會他們可以自行決定這些事情我覺得剛剛他已經說了他從19歲到43歲他的舌王如此的卑微"},{"start":669.821,"end":688.029,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":688.309,"end":711.238,"text":"但是執政黨委員也想要在這些所有進一步的改革公開透明的路程上陪伴所有我們在政策服務的每一個人從我們關注的學生青少年到相關的選手到各式各樣的企業上社會上每一個人所以在體育這件事情上我真的覺得我自己都覺得很大的困境是我們不知道到底要怎麼樣跟你們溝通你們才願意公開透明民主的方法去對待選手跟跟協會溝通"},{"start":712.972,"end":733.185,"text":"因為教練的臨險都會公告出來 這沒有問題的啦我們會再次跟體育署討論如果我們沒有辦法在今天有共識的話為什麼我要問次長 次長麻煩你所有的願望都非常的卑微所有的選手他們不應該只是國家奪牌的工具所有的體育改革都必須要從基層"},{"start":733.945,"end":735.607,"text":"最後我的訴求謝謝主席謝謝不好意思最後一張"},{"start":749.159,"end":767.287,"text":"我要積極的要求重新檢視奧運教練領選資格﹑客觀設定還有公平性不要再讓協會施設形堂讓選手只能孤單面對還有盤點參賽證件P卡調度的可能性避免相關的現象我相信體育署非常的清楚再來我真心想要拜託葉刺身為我們從"},{"start":768.387,"end":768.447,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"153970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153970","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba04ac1f3de28b439e879c37d5c632653374d862afa46997d4e5993ba96f61a712e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:22:18 - 11:29:24","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:22:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:29:24+08:00","duration":426,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":741,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時22分）謝謝主席。我們請部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好！"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好！部長，我今天這個幾分鐘的時間想請教，我們彰化市的產蛋，可能全臺灣兩顆蛋其中一顆就是來自彰化，我想請教，在最近這幾週裡面，蛋價是一直在降，現在每台斤已經跌到27.5塊，這個是創近三年來新低，很多蛋農真的是非常的擔心，就產地價是降的，可是我們消費端其實沒有感受到蛋價是在降，所以我不知道怎麼樣去幫助這些蛋農，就是產地已經降到27.5塊，已經回到之前，那時候可能一箱700多塊，我不知道現在一箱多少，現在一箱大約多少？"],["陳部長駿季：200顆的話，大概是750左右。"],["黃委員秀芳：700多，現在市面上所有有關蛋的產品其實差不多是缺蛋那時候的價格……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，當雞蛋產地價上升到某個程度的時候，消費價這邊就會跟著提高；產地價降的時候，消費價不跟著降，這是最大的困擾。然後它的需求量，因為蛋的生產，一定要靠後端需求的拉力，所以現在我們也一直呼籲，包括蛋商公會也一直呼籲，消費端的這些蛋品價格要能夠往下降，這樣才能夠刺激消費，讓產銷達到一個平衡，這是我們在努力的方向。"],["黃委員秀芳：那你們要怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也跟很多超市賣場溝通，因為超市賣場它是一個指標性的，如果超市賣場賣的滷蛋、茶葉蛋能夠有帶頭的作用，我相信後端可能會跟著動，這是我們在努力的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。"],["陳部長駿季：但是以農業部來講，我們是針對前端的生產，前端生產的確有一些超產，因為消費量沒有拉起來，所以昨天我們討論之後，提出非常積極的作為──針對整個蛋雞場裡面寡產的老母雞，我們希望用更強的力道去做有效的汰換；現在每個月大概是120萬隻，我們希望提升到180萬隻，藉由這樣的提升，給予適當的協助。"],["黃委員秀芳：老母雞汰換的話，我們會給什麼樣的協助？"],["陳部長駿季：老母雞汰換，每一隻會補助一定的金額，但這需要跟整個蛋雞產業有一個共識，我們會儘快啟動這個方案。另外，就是在種雞變成雛雞這個部分，小雞不斷的進來，你永遠沒辦法控制，所以我們一方面也希望這五家種雞場不要讓蛋去受精，就當作一般的蛋去賣，如果不讓蛋受精的話，就不會有小雞，我們在這部分也會給予適當的協助。所以，我們一方面從源頭將種雞變成雛雞，另一方面是將末端的老母雞淘汰，希望透過這兩個手段，儘快讓產能恢復到一定的水準，以滿足需求；特別是7月以後，學校放假了，蛋的需求在夏天會比較少一點。所以我們希望儘快做調整，減少7月份所帶來的一個壓力，一方面也要去提升消費者本身的需求。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我很擔心，因為很多蛋雞業者，尤其是在彰化這邊，都在反映蛋價一直下降，從四十幾塊降到現在剩下二十幾塊，而飼料也沒有降價，飼料價格是上漲的。"],["陳部長駿季：飼料的部分，我們也在溝通，有關飼料營業稅的調整，已經延長到9月，希望這一波營業稅的降低，飼料廠能夠將營業稅降低所得到的一些價差，做一點回饋。這個部分我們會再……"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得你們在這個部分應該要確實，在飼料營業稅的部分，既然給了業者一些優惠，就應該要反映在價格上，雞農買飼料的這個價格，應該要有所調整。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們也積極跟這些飼料廠、飼料公會在協商。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，剛剛特別提到學校放暑假，就學校的團膳而言，我看學校的團膳平均一個月才用2.15顆蛋，有的甚至不到2顆，本席認為我們應該多鼓勵學校團膳使用，因為這個是很重要的一個蛋白質來源。"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員說明，我們也非常關切這些資訊，我們其實也有掌握，但因為所有的菜單是營養師開的，我們沒辦法直接叫團膳業者怎麼做，所以我們會跟營養師去溝通，特別是蛋的部分；以前說吃多吃蛋會增加膽固醇，現在的證據是沒有這樣的一個疑慮，對小孩子來講，雞蛋是一個很好的蛋白質來源。我們希望他們不要用炒蛋的方式，因為炒蛋用的量就非常少，可以用整顆的蛋或是半顆的蛋，我們也一直在做這樣的溝通。我們希望在學校營養午餐的部分，不是因為蛋太多而要學童吃，是因為雞蛋本身的蛋白質對學童是有幫助的。"],["黃委員秀芳：對。我們希望對這些雞農確實有一些幫助，要不然整個價格一直降的話，他們真的會血本無歸。謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請陳超明委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我們請部長我們再請陳部長"},{"start":18.106,"end":35.941,"text":"委員長好。部長。我今天這個幾分鐘的時間我想請教就是我彰化市這個產蛋可能全台灣兩顆蛋一個就是來自彰化。那我想請教就是說在最近這幾週裡面連續蛋價是一直在降啦。這個"},{"start":37.022,"end":59.77,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":59.77,"end":83.592,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":84.872,"end":99.053,"text":"​​​​​​"},{"start":99.309,"end":125.469,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":125.469,"end":146.937,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":146.937,"end":166.152,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":166.152,"end":186.049,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":186.71,"end":203.207,"text":" bicy 老母雞泰灣的話我們每一隻會補助一定的金額用這樣的方式但是會跟我們的整個氮基產業能夠有一個共同的共識那這個方案我想我們盡快就會啟動那另外一個方案就是"},{"start":203.848,"end":219.548,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":219.548,"end":243.746,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":243.746,"end":267.807,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":267.807,"end":282.227,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":282.745,"end":297.934,"text":" tatto 9月齁所以我們希望說這一波的那個營業稅降低的時候我希望飼料廠也能夠反映到這些營業稅降低所得到的一些一些價差齁能夠做一點回饋這個我想我們在可是我覺得你們這個應該要確實啊"},{"start":300.055,"end":322.897,"text":"對,就是說飼料也許你們就給他一些優惠,那你就是要反映到他們的那個價格。對,就是那個飼料的價格不能讓他就維持。如果你既然有幫他有優惠的話,那你應該反映在這個基農要買這個飼料的這個價格應該要有所調整。對,所以我們也積極跟這些飼料廠、飼料工會在做一個協商。"},{"start":325.299,"end":347.553,"text":" 那個部長我想請教剛剛有特別提到就是說這個暑假學校放暑假嘛那原本也許這個團散團散他原本就有這個可能一天或者是我看到這個平均學校的這個平均團散一個月喔一個月才用2.15粒這個2.15顆蛋或是有的不到兩顆"},{"start":348.814,"end":364.48,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":364.48,"end":379.582,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":379.582,"end":405.964,"text":""},{"start":405.964,"end":423.439,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"}]}},{"id":"153969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153969","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba01c8bf019fa1f433379c37d5c632653374d862afa46997d4e058d39ead7a38cca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:12:47 - 11:21:53","影片長度":"00:09:06","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:12:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:21:53+08:00","duration":546,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":684,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時13分）謝謝主席，是不是麻煩有請部長？"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，我延續上一次質詢的主題，也就是在2022年我們從日本進口雞蛋，上一次詢答的時候，其實你也答應要提供很多資料嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：到目前為止資料都還沒有完全到，所以我想說利用今天質詢的時間，我們進一步地來請教。因為這整件事情之所以會引發大家這麼大的關注，是大家發現2023年超思這家公司出現了，一口氣承接了7億的單子，從巴西進口雞蛋，大家開始在追蹤這家公司到底是什麼時候開始在做這樣子的生意。農業部強調，它不是為了專案進口才成立，但我們後來發現，它在2022年11月的時候就曾經從日本進口雞蛋到臺灣，而且它在2022年11月從日本進口雞蛋到臺灣的時候接的是我們中央畜產會的大單，它在2022年9月的時候才成立的，因此我們進一步追下去，發現原來我們在2022年從日本進口雞蛋，那3,000萬顆裡面有2,500萬顆是由超思所進口進來的，所以我那個時候才會跟部長說這個契約是不是可以提供？但目前為止我所收到的訊息是中央畜產會請超思進口2,500萬顆雞蛋沒有契約。"],["陳部長駿季：我從畜產會所得到的訊息是它111年只跟亮采有合約，跟超思是沒有合約的，不是沒有提供……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，但你不會覺得這件事情太奇怪了嗎？因為進口2,500萬顆雞蛋不是我們今天跑去「𥴊仔店」買1盒雞蛋，我們今天跑去「𥴊仔店」買1盒雞蛋，一手交錢，一手交蛋，沒有合約，只有口頭，實際上面行為的意思表示合致，這個大家都可以理解，但你從日本進口2,500萬顆雞蛋，包括數量、包括價格、包括交貨的條件、包括中間可能要負擔的各式各樣的費用，完全沒有合約，部長，你相信嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明一下，從2、3月委員在關心111年的這個相關資料以後，其實我從內部就啟動了相關的行政調查，在行政調查裡面，我們也的確看到有一些現況好像有一點點的疑問，對我們來講是一個疑問，所以我們行政調查了以後，我也請政風去做更深入的瞭解，我的態度是公務人員的作為如果有不法的話，我一定嚴懲……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！我們一步一步來……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我也……"],["黃委員國昌：先不用這麼急……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我也提供了檢調……"],["黃委員國昌：我們一步一步來，部長，先請您稍微冷靜一下……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們一步一步來，我到現在都還沒有提什麼不法、要懲處誰，我只希望把事情還原，把它弄清楚而已……"],["陳部長駿季：我們也是希望……"],["黃委員國昌：因為我第一步的事情是2,500萬顆雞蛋竟然沒有合約這件事情，部長，你們行政調查的結果是不是確實是這個樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：我們看到的這些資料，我所瞭解的是2,540萬裡面其中有一部分是跟亮采之間的關係，最後的確是超思去進口，但是它是跟亮采之間的關係，並不是直接用超思的名義去買斷……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子跟你們提供給我的書面資料就不符合啊！"],["陳部長駿季：提供的書面資料中，的確是超思買斷的，就是我們的付款……"],["黃委員國昌：我們先把事情講清楚，那個契約關係到底存在誰跟誰之間？中央畜產會是跟超思買，還是中央畜產會跟亮采買？"],["陳部長駿季：跟亮采，中央畜產會跟亮采有合約關係，跟超思沒有合約關係。"],["黃委員國昌：所以實際上面的狀況是什麼？實際上面的狀況是3,000萬顆全部都是跟亮采，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，有一部分是超思本身……"],["黃委員國昌：所謂有一部分是有多大部分？"],["陳部長駿季：我如果沒有記錯的話，應該是600多萬顆……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我老實跟你講，這幾個月下來，你們給的資訊不是隱匿，就是片段，前後不一致，到今天才講，原來有一部分是跟亮采進來的，跟亮采進來的到底數量是多少？今天你說得清楚嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想非常詳細的數字我沒有辦法記得那麼清楚……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你們行政調查做完了沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我們行政調查做完了。"],["黃委員國昌：做完了，行政調查報告可以提供給各位委員嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：如果相關的規定是可以，我一定會提供。"],["黃委員國昌：有什麼不可以的理由嗎？你們進行了行政調查，社會大眾對這件事情有非常多的疑慮與質問，我們在經濟委員會質詢了這麼久，結果你們一開始隱匿不肯給，到後來提供的資訊錯誤百出，到今天才承認，原來有一部分的蛋超思是從亮采那邊來，他們彼此之間有一些交易行為，越講越複雜，是不是可以請部長承諾，你們既然有做行政調查，行政調查的內容當然要接受國會的監督及人民的檢驗，可不可以把行政調查報告交出來？我們下一次詢答的時候，不用浪費這麼多時間，你還要不斷的去更正你們之前所提供的訊息，可以把行政調查報告交出來嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是一句話，以我的立場，我可以交的，我一定會交，我絕對不會隱匿，相對的就是我可能必須問我們的法制處。","如果照我們法制講的，可以的話，我一定會提供。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以多久行政調查報告要交出來，這個禮拜之前可不可以？"],["陳部長駿季：行政調查報告已經完成了，它可以……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以交出來？這個禮拜可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：……就可以，因為已經完成了。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，這個禮拜可以交出來嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個禮拜……"],["黃委員國昌：你們不是已經完成了嗎？你只要把檔案打開，按列印，印完了以後，送到經濟委員會來給所有經濟委員會的委員及關心的委員。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我跟委員說明，我們對外提供資料的時候，相關的這些程序我們必須要完備……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼樣的程序？要報到院長那邊去，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，所有……"],["黃委員國昌：要請示院長可不可以提供，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，除了我們的承辦本身，還要經過科長，要經過司長，包括我們的主秘，這是我們的行政流程，這個行政流程一定要完備，完備之後，我們一定提供……"],["主席：部長，你就告訴委員什麼時間點，好不好？細節你不用在這邊說，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我說下禮拜一定會提供，明天我不知道是不是所有人都在我們部裡面，所以下禮拜一，最慢下禮拜二，我一定提供。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最晚下禮拜二提供。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望我去函詢問的資料，包括了畜產會跟超思往來的紀錄、畜產會跟超思付款的明細，畜產會跟超思如果沒有一個書面合約的話，針對所有的交易條件，到底是怎麼談成的，因為整件事情對於我來講，我必須要說，匪夷所思！匪夷所思！這麼大的數量沒有合約，所有的交易條件到底是如何達成合意的？分兩個部分，第一個，就行政調查報告的部分，部長剛剛已經承諾，最晚下個禮拜二提供，這個我同意；第二個，就我去函詢問的問題，請部長能夠一併回復，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：從這個簡報上面看到的，我覺得應該可以提供。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。因為部長也是很老實的事務官，我要替部長講一句話，部長，但是的確從有契約到沒契約，真的頭都暈了，都暈了！所以禮拜二我們也希望能夠有清楚的東西出來，謝謝。","接下來請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","鄭天財Sra 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️ ️ ️"},{"start":394.405,"end":416.658,"text":"可以把行政調查報告交出來嗎?我還是一句話喔以我的立場齁我可以交的我一定會交我絕對不會隱密齁那相對的就是說我可能必須問我們的法務法治處這邊齁如果可以的話可不可以好如果如果照我們法治講的可以的話我一定會提供好"},{"start":417.458,"end":425.427,"text":"所以,多久行政調查報告要交出來?這個禮拜之前可不可以?什麼時候可以交出來?這個禮拜可以嗎?等一下,這個禮拜可以交出來嗎?你們不是已經完成了嗎?"},{"start":435.646,"end":455.109,"text":"啊你只要把檔案打開、按列印、印完了以後送到經濟委員會來給所有經濟委員會的委員跟關心的委員嗎?不是,我跟委員說明喔,就是我們對外提供資料的時候,相關的這些程序我們必須要完備。什麼樣的程序要報到院長那邊去是不是?要請示院長可不可以提供是不是?"},{"start":456.07,"end":458.311,"text":"議長,你就告訴委員什麼時間點。好不好?細節你不用在這邊說好不好?好!"},{"start":483.166,"end":512.602,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":512.722,"end":539.089,"text":"沒有合約那所有的交易條件到底是如何達成合意的分兩個部分第一個就行政調查報告的部分部長剛剛已經承諾最晚下個禮拜二提供這個我同意第二個就我去函詢問的問題請部長一併一併能夠可以回覆這樣可以嗎從這個簡報上面看到的我覺得應該可以提供好謝謝"},{"start":544.701,"end":545.503,"text":"謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"153968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0b976c045d1aa8c6c560592432c08898e4d862afa46997d4e16d77fa562bcf7fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:12:21 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11:21:51","影片長度":"00:09:30","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:12:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:21:51+08:00","duration":570,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":976,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時12分）謝謝主席，本席請客委會古主委。"],["主席：有請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員你好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委你好，恭喜你。"],["古主任委員秀妃：謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛上任會很忙嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：的確很忙。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請教你，你有和楊主委交接嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，有交接。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你知道這個會期每個委員有問過哪些問題嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：首先我要請問你，你有唱客家歌謠嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，不過我的歌聲不太好，所以比較沒有在唱歌。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，你有唱過客家歌嘛！今天要討論客家都會區中客家人的權益，關於客家歌曲或是歌謠的版權問題，你瞭解嗎？我之前有問過楊主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很多客家鄉親以及非客家人都想要學習客家歌曲和客家歌謠，希望客家委員會可以協助多買一些版權，讓更多客家子弟、客家鄉親，或者想要學習客家歌曲的民眾可以唱，現在這部分做得如何？之前我有問過楊主委了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯，很多鄉親還有山歌伴在教唱山歌時都會遇到版權問題，過去客委會有授權過這些客家歌曲……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不夠，很多人跟我說那些還不夠。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯，我也收到很多人反映說不夠……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有相關計畫嗎？今年有計畫買多少版權？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前還沒有數量的規畫，因為這還需要授權、需要研議，我們會朝這個方向……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們可以去看啊！哪些可以買的就盡量買嘛！每年、每年的買，這樣數量就很多了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯，這些事情是我們應該要做的，我們會每年都來購買這些版權。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今年有計畫了嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還在盤點嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，因為需要經費。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是啊！現在才6月，應該還有經費啊！"],["古主任委員秀妃：還有一些經費，我們慢慢熟悉當中，我們會……"],["徐委員欣瑩：要快一點喔，很多人期待，不能慢慢來。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，我們趕快來做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我希望你們可以給我們一份報告，讓我們知道你們計畫的如何，1個月內給我們內政委員會一份報告，要計畫購買才可以啊！"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，我們來計畫。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，你喜歡吃粄條嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：喜歡吃，我自己的故鄉就出產粄條。"],["徐委員欣瑩：美濃，對嗎？是面帕粄嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，面帕粄。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今年寶林茶室的中毒事件，很多人誤以為是粄條出問題啊！但其實不是粄條的問題，是他們儲存食物的方式出問題。我也曾邀請楊主委到新竹吃粄條，講到粄條就會想到美濃的粄條，主委，你知道我們新竹很有名的粄條在哪個鄉鎮嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：就我所知，在新竹的新埔。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！新埔鎮的粄條很有名，主委，你也來新竹吃一次粄條，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：以前我在臺北的時候，我也會到新埔吃粄條。"],["徐委員欣瑩：新竹縣的縣長想要辦粄條節，他們向客家委員會申請了200萬，但是你們只給了100萬，還說要辦在竹北，但我們粄條最有名的地方就在新竹縣的新埔鎮，所以是不是可以讓新竹縣政府自己決定要辦在哪個地點？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，在我上任之後就知道這件事情了，因此我有正式回復新竹縣政府，現在就交給新竹縣政府決定，他們可以決定自己要辦在哪裡。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以了嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：可以，我沒有指定要辦在哪裡。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那這樣經費可以再多一些嗎？辦理粄條節，申請200萬也沒有很多啊！才給了100萬，是不是可以再多加一點？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們希望每個縣市所申請的經費都能足額給予，不過自我上任以後發現，這些經費的科目都爆掉了，所以沒有錢了，還有負數……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣喔！"],["古主任委員秀妃：我也覺得怎麼會這樣，所以100萬就很多了，因為已經超過我們的預算了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：粄條節如果舉辦了，你會來參加嗎？一起來參加，可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：可以、可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：新埔鎮、竹東鎮、北埔有很多有名的餐廳在賣粄條，新竹縣的鄉親希望客家人喜歡吃的粄條可以讓更多人知道，也希望更多人喜歡吃客家粄條。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我同意，我們會來宣傳。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接下來要請問，客家委員會對我們全國的特色公園有什麼計畫呢？對於客家特色的公園有什麼補助？讓很多人能更加瞭解客家特色，現在客家委員會有什麼計畫？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，我們有一個客庄創生環境營造計畫，這個計畫就是要保存客家地區的歷史記憶、環境，還有圖書館……"],["徐委員欣瑩：補助的方式是怎麼樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：申請……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有申請就能取得經費嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是，申請是指地方政府，像是縣政府、鄉鎮公所寫計畫來申請以後，我們會請專家學者來審查，針對他們的內容來做實際的審查，看他們的內容有沒有客家特色，以及是否達到地方人民的需求，還有經費的分配是否合理，現在就要全部來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，拜託了，你知道，新竹縣是客家人比例最高的地方……"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：希望你們能支持更多客家特色的公園，好嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，全臺灣我們都會照顧，新竹縣也一樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：新竹縣是客家人比例最高的，你也知道啊！"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就拜託了！"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢，謝謝古主委，在內政委員會很好吧！聽到美麗的語言、美麗的不同的文化，的確是非常棒，而且這樣的質詢跟對話實在是非常的和諧，謝謝讓我們聽到美麗，其實我從小有很多客家的朋友和同學，因為我在臺中縣和平。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，那客家人口最多。"],["主席：對，所以我們從小大家和諧得非常好。","繼續請丁學忠，丁學忠委員質詢，丁學忠委員改書面。","繼續請張智倫，張智倫，張智倫委員也改書面。","黃建賓，黃建賓，黃建賓委員也改書面。","我們內政委員會的委員都質詢完畢，所以現在先處理臨時提案，請宣讀。","案由：","嘉義市客家族群的人口數約有2萬4千人，主要分布在圓林仔、鹿寮一帶；嘉義市幅員雖小，客家族群數相較其他縣市也不算多，然中央應一視同仁，不應以族群人口數，作為其政策推廣之主軸。自本席爭取後，去（2023）年客委會安排客家大戲至嘉義市演出，惟後皆無客委會主導之藝文活動在嘉義市演出。","為了加強嘉義市客家文化之傳承、豐富嘉義市客家文化多元化，爰請客委會在一個月內就「如何加強嘉義市客家藝文活動推廣」，提供書面報告予本院內政委員會及提案委員。","提案人：王美惠　　黃　捷　　張宏陸"],["主席：應該沒有意見吧！古主委？我覺得非常好。","恭喜，也謝謝美惠委員的提案。"],["王委員美惠：謝謝。"],["主席：照案通過。我們今天中午不休息繼續開會。","繼續請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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11:19:34","影片長度":"00:13:45","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【6月12日及13日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T11:05:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:19:34+08:00","duration":825,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":539,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時5分）主席謝謝，麻煩請葉次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["葉次長丙成：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，您現在也就任快一個月的時間，針對您的出線，一開始的時候有些人認為是亮點，因為您推出翻轉教育理念；但是也看到媒體有一些教團的聲音，擔憂會不會成為是以網紅流量的思維來辦教育。現在已經經過快一個月的時間，您怎麼樣來翻轉這一些教育團體對你質疑的聲浪？"],["葉次長丙成：剛上任的時候，對於很多事情我覺得大家都有些誤解，比如說大家一直談，好像我常常在談翻轉教學，我們就要再翻轉或是幹什麼，跟各位及委員報告，其實我已經有七年沒有談翻轉了，所以跟委員報告，我一直有一個理念，包括之前在參加大學校長遴選的時候我也有提到，王安石式的改革是不會成功的，很多事情不是一下子畢其功於一役，亂翻，所以一開始要先瞭解，很多事情的運作是有它的原因，瞭解之後，我們再看還有沒有一些地方是我們可以透過創新來做改變，我想這個是穩健去瞭解，再做創新。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以在這個月裡面你有沒有試著跟這些教育團體來做溝通，讓大家知道你在教育路上的一些理念、堅持或是想法？"],["葉次長丙成：有，像我們之前在提這個新五專3+2概念的時候，全教總就有來跟我討論，瞭解這個狀況。透過這樣的溝通，他們本來的一些擔心或疑慮其實就消除了蠻多的，我想這也是我們未來要努力持續做的事情，跟更多的團體溝通，包括之前我也去國教盟跟適性教育協會協辦的論壇，跟教團、跟家長團體做更多的對話跟交流，我覺得很重要，也是我很樂意，我覺得應該要做的。"],["洪委員孟楷：一定要，不管是我們身為民意代表或是行政官員，其實現在越來越重要的就是教育是大家的，我們要怎麼樣能夠讓未來的學子，以及相對來講所有過去面臨到的問題能夠獲得一些解決，我覺得這是重要的。我想請教一下，現在也看到大家開始在炒作所謂的AI浪潮，認為AI熱潮非常的熱門，但是即便看到次長你在臉書上有發表看法，說面對AI不要焦慮。但是現在學術界好像也有一個狀況是重理工、輕人文，有看到很多的大學部開始也在增設半導體的教育，甚至大學、政府、企業也將半導體的教育向下延伸，國教署也會補助高中職實施半導體的課程，由高中負責研發課程，現在有10所學校開始試辦，如此會不會讓國內這幾年內的教育現況變成都是以理工，或是以半導體或甚至AI為主？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我們認為人文是非常非常重要，像過去這兩年家長請我去演講，在談AI之後的人才圖像，我常常在談一件事情，我說AI很會解決問題，但是什麼問題值得解、什麼問題對人很重要，解了以後會創造出很多的價值，這只有人才知道，所以對人文這方面的素養其實是很重要的。也跟委員報告，我們現在看的就是，人文的重要點應該是在於我們認為每一個學生，不管你是念什麼的，不管是電機、資訊或其他，我們覺得都應該有人文這方面的薰陶及素養，所以這也是為什麼我們在專報裡面提到我們有鼓勵大學，已經有很多大學，像臺大、清大、成大都有這種彈性的學制，臺大是讓學生可以選不同的領域專長，比如說，他可以有四個領域專長，然後每個領域專長大概就十幾到二十學分，然後他可以懂一點資訊，可以有資訊的領域專長，他可能也選一個心理的領域專長、經濟的領域專長跟社會的領域專長，這樣子四個領域專長，他就可以拿校學士畢業，其實這樣會讓學生有更多的彈性可以組合出他自己……","也跟委員報告，剛才我前面有分享到，像之前我在臺大的時候，臺大最多學生修的輔系是社會系。所以我們看到其實這樣的概念在大學裡面，我們認為不是只有念人文科系的學生需要有人文，而是我們認為大家都應該要有，所以怎麼樣透過這個彈性學制，這是我們接下來會去推動的，希望更多大學有類似未來大學的這種校學士或是探索學習這樣的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們現在的主導方向，不管在次長或是部長的領域上，你們還是會承諾不會因為現在的AI熱潮或是半導體熱潮而重理工輕人文，還是會並重，是不是？"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。我們也拉回來，這就牽扯到兩個問題，其實這也是本席特別要提出來的，第一，現在看起來高等教育，就是有一些大專院校因為過去普設大學的狀況，也因此造成倒閉潮。現在預估今年7月底會有15間大專院校走入歷史，其中有13所還是專科申辦或是改制，甚至有人評估117學年會有40所大專院校倒閉。你已經上任快一個月的時間，你們有沒有針對國內的大專院校去評估，看我們到底需要多少的數額？就是整個大專院校的高等教育，我們需要的學校數量。"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，剛才的那個數據可能有媒體誤植了，就是可能會退場的那40家，不是都是高等教育或是技職，其實還涵蓋了高中職在裡面……"],["洪委員孟楷：但不管怎麼樣，高教已經30年的時間，現在我們看到一百多所的高等教育有可能陸續會有退場機制，我們現在只是想，新的政府、新的教育部，不管是部長，不管是次長，針對這個部分，也有高教改革團體認為應該要開啟高等教育國是會議，你們有沒有去評估過以臺灣2,350萬人未來少子化趨勢的情況下，到底未來這5年內我們需要多少所大專院校？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，其實我們因應到產業，產業現在遇到的挑戰是，臺灣因為少子化，新生兒只有過去的三分之一，所以現在臺灣是非常非常缺人的。所以臺灣除要扮演從以前的高等教育是要訓練自己的學生、自己作為人才的這個角色之外，我們現在賦予另外一個很重要的角色是，我們要去吸收海外的學生來臺灣，把他訓練成人才，而且還能夠讓他願意留在臺灣工作，去補足我們產業到2030年估計的三、四十萬的缺口。所以以這個角度來講……"],["洪委員孟楷：照次長的講法是，現在我們的高等教育可能還不用倒閉、學校關閉？甚至可能還要再增校？"],["葉次長丙成：如果以現在的量能，我們在規劃來講，在2030年我們預計能夠吸收、能夠留臺的學生人數大概是21萬人，這是我們現在一個很重要的使命。所以現在的學校如果體質是好的，其實我們都認為它是有其存在的價值，因為要為臺灣去海外攬才、留才，這是我們現在非常重要……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，有那麼樂觀嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我們現在看到在新南向……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，應該這麼講啦！我想請教，你們已經上任快一個月的時間，有沒有考慮過應該要呼籲針對高等教育來召開國是會議，或是建議總統來召開國是會議？"],["葉次長丙成：部長的……因為我們目前……"],["洪委員孟楷：您自己的想法是什麼？"],["葉次長丙成：其實我們現在已經有很多機制是可以廣納大家對高教的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你認為不需要？"],["葉次長丙成：我們有這些大學校長會議，還有很多相關的機制，如果這些機制還不夠的話，當然我們就要再研議看有沒有要來做這樣的事情，但是目前我們其實還是就我們目前的這些機制……"],["洪委員孟楷：是嗎？因為這些機制過去就已經二、三十年了，所以本席為什麼會提出這個問題，或是說為什麼一直有人倡議，認為現在是一個里程碑，未來我們當然也希望臺灣的辦學能夠讓海內外也覺得享譽國際，願意有其他的學子進來，但是畢竟以過去看到數字來講，是沒有那麼樂觀的嘛！也因此本席才會點出這個問題，不管你剛剛講是媒體的誤植或是大家估算的基準不同，但是117年恐會有40所大專院校倒閉，這也是曾經報導過嘛！"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：另一個部分是學習歷程檔案，你之前有提過，對於學習歷程檔案，大家也認為是不是應該有再調整的空間跟必要性？我記得你那時候認為學習歷程檔案反而是可以讓大家相對更公平，可是也有人講到，為什麼常常會看到有人在販售學習歷程檔案？我們已經不只一次點出來，每年都點出來一樣的狀況。針對這個部分，今年來不及了，明年要怎麼樣來預防，或是說明年真的能夠讓大家知道學習歷程檔案不是用錢買、臨時抱佛腳就可以了，這要怎麼改善？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，我覺得一些相關的配套是我們可以再來努力的，比如說，怎麼樣讓更多同學在高一剛入學的時候能夠瞭解學習歷程到底是怎麼一回事、大家怎麼做這個東西，雖然過去我們有做一些教材，像作伙學，有手冊給每個同學，但是可能只有書面不見得夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有信心？因為您剛上任，今年9月高二升高三的同學、這一屆的同學在教育部的說明、思考、討論之下，有沒有信心讓他們在明年要申請學校、拿出學習歷程檔案的時候，能夠讓同學不要再去坊間購買？也讓坊間意圖想要販賣的商機可以消除，而是回歸到我們一開始推出來的教育常態？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，這個我們會來努力，但我也必須分享一件事情，有些時候這不只是學生的問題，有時候是家長，因為有時候是家長對這個事情的焦慮，家長也是愛子心切嘛，就覺得他花這個錢……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，所以次長，我現在就是以家長的角度，您可能也是家長，我不知道您的小朋友的年紀多大，抱歉！因為我沒有探詢您個人的隱私，但一樣嘛！如果有家長會有這樣的焦慮、有同學會有這樣的焦慮；有些時候是學生看到別的學生都去買；或是都有這樣的事情，回去拜託家長讓他不要輸在起跑點上；有些則是家長求好心切；有些可能是一個班級的風氣，這就有賴教育部去說明，而不是教育部設計了一個規則之後，然後告訴大家說：這個就是家長的問題、這個就是學生的問題。"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以過去沒有解決的狀況，因為我們每年差不多4月、5月來質詢的時候都會講到，而且每年4月、5月的時候，都會看到坊間有這樣的販售，一樣嘛！現在您已經上任了，新的政府、新的教育部部長、次長，我們怎麼樣能夠真的從根本來解決這個問題？在明年4月、5月的時候，不要再讓我們委員、不要再讓國會再討論這樣的議題。"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，所以我們現在要做的事情，我們現在已經在規劃，在會期結束之後，因為我們之前4、5年前有所謂的國教宣講，但是我覺得我們忽略一件事情，就是每年都有新生的家長，都有新的家長……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯。"],["葉次長丙成：接下來在會期結束後，包括我自己跟張廖次長，我們都會跳下去，看怎麼樣去各地跟家長宣講……"],["洪委員孟楷：全臺宣講。"],["葉次長丙成：讓大家更瞭解這個事情是不需要焦慮的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不只有政黨現在在規劃全臺宣講，教育部也可以，其實我覺得這是好事，這就是本席一開始提出來的初衷。我認為既然部長、次長已經有這樣的想法，我們就一起努力，希望讓大家都能夠把學習歷程回歸到常態，讓大家用3年的時間去累積多采多姿、豐富的人生經驗，而不是高三的時候才來臨時抱佛腳，也不是做得漂漂亮亮、印彩色列印就是好的學習歷程，也不是上網填寫就是好的學習歷程。所以規劃全縣市的宣講並且說明，這個計畫什麼時候可以出來？"],["葉次長丙成：我們回去再去擬，我們預計7月中會期結束之後會開始……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，也再請提供本席以及教育及文化委員會的委員一份，好嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":334,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-16","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","林倩綺","葛如鈞","葉元之","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","羅廷瑋","郭昱晴","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","賴士葆","林思銘","陳亭妃","翁曉玲","范雲","羅智強","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","吳春城"],"page_start":273,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長葉丙成列席就「少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營、創新及提升競爭力」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136201_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.15721875,"end":2.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.06846875,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.19846875,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.222843750000003,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.024093750000006,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.19909375,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.53659375,"end":89.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.53596875000001,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.42471875000001,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.98159375,"end":100.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.03534375,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.66596875000002,"end":297.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.23096875000005,"end":286.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.34471875,"end":287.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.41471875,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.03784375000004,"end":316.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.57221875000005,"end":354.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.43971875,"end":365.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.11721875,"end":371.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.54659375,"end":388.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.71346875,"end":385.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.74284375,"end":388.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.13471875000005,"end":409.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.05971875,"end":420.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.10034375000004,"end":456.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.12846875,"end":462.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.82784375000006,"end":494.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.96784375000004,"end":485.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.36721875,"end":494.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.46846875000006,"end":494.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.75534375,"end":507.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.78909375,"end":495.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.91784375000003,"end":510.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.66409375,"end":515.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.78971875,"end":527.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.75034375,"end":527.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.8640937499999,"end":541.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.2122187500001,"end":588.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.22909375,"end":541.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.4409687500001,"end":591.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.90471875,"end":613.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.65659375,"end":637.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.58534375,"end":642.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.49159375,"end":667.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.12909375,"end":683.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.35909375,"end":716.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.8640937499999,"end":718.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.3997187500001,"end":729.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.46721875,"end":718.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.1784687500001,"end":731.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.06846875,"end":742.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.0203437499999,"end":764.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.7778437500001,"end":756.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.97909375,"end":764.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.68784375,"end":764.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.73846875,"end":767.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.95346875,"end":766.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.0334687500001,"end":801.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.94784375,"end":806.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.3859687500001,"end":808.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.76534375,"end":810.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.43596875,"end":810.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.9040937500001,"end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那我們也拉回來這就牽扯到兩個問題其實這也是本席這邊特別要來提出來一一是現在看起來高等教育就是有一些大專院校他其實因為過去普赦大學的狀況也因此這樣說這個倒閉槽"},{"start":341.976,"end":365.557,"text":"現在預估今年7月底會有15間大專院校走入歷史其中有13所還是專科申辦或是改制甚至有人評估說117學年會有40所大專院校倒閉我們現在到底有沒有已經上任快一個月的時間有沒有去針對我們國內的大專院校到底去評估說我們到底有多少的這個數額是需要的"},{"start":366.118,"end":366.238,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":389.224,"end":406.808,"text":"高教已經30年的一個時間那現在我們看到說一百多所的一個高等教育他有可能陸續會有這個退場機制是那我們現在只想是說新的政府新的教育部不管是部長不管是次長針對這部分也有叫高教改革團體認為是說應該要開啟高等教育國是論壇啊"},{"start":410.269,"end":430.886,"text":"我們到底有沒有去評估過說我們台灣以2350萬人未來少子化的一個趨勢的情況到底未來這五年內我們需要的是多少所大專院校跟委員報告因為其實我們現在因應到現在產業產業現在遇到的挑戰是台灣因為少子化我們現在新生的只有過去的三分之一所以我們現在台灣是非常非常缺人的"},{"start":431.346,"end":455.603,"text":"所以台灣的從以前的高等教育我們是要訓練自己的學生自己做人才這個角色之外我們現在賦予另外很重要的一個角色是我們要去吸收海外的這個學生來台灣把他訓練成人才而且還能夠讓他願意留在台灣工作去補足我們現在產業的這個到2030年估計有大概三四十萬的缺口所以以這個角度來講的話"},{"start":456.323,"end":462.108,"text":"所以趙次長的講法是現在我們的高等教育可能還不用倒閉學校關閉可能還要再增校"},{"start":462.824,"end":463.264,"text":"市長有那麼樂觀嗎?"},{"start":494.819,"end":506.965,"text":"市長應該這麼講啦 我想請教就說到底現在已經上任快一個月的時間有沒有考慮過說應該要呼籲來針對高等教育要召開國師論壇或說建議總統來召開國師論壇?您自己的想法是什麼?"},{"start":517.833,"end":544.473,"text":"因為我們其實在這個我們其實現在已經有很多的機制是可以廣納大家對這個高教的意見所以您認為不需要?所以我們就有這些大學校長會議還有很多這些機制所以如果這些機制還不夠的話那當然我們就會再研議這個有沒有要來做這樣的事情但目前我們其實還是以就我們目前這些機制是嗎?因為這些機制過去就已經二三十年了"},{"start":544.833,"end":570.613,"text":"所以本席為什麼會提出這個問題或說為什麼一直有人倡議就是認為是說現在是一個里程碑未來我們當然也希望是說台灣的辦學能夠讓海內外也覺得說享譽國際願意有其他的學子進來但是畢竟沒有那麼以過去看到的數字來講是沒有那麼樂觀的嘛因此本席才會點出來這個問題不管你剛剛講是說是媒體的物質或說大家的一個估算的一個基準不同"},{"start":570.913,"end":588.116,"text":"但是117年恐會有40所大專院校倒閉這也是曾經報導過嘛那另外另外一部分是學習歷程檔案你之前有提過就學習歷程檔案大家也認為是說是不是應該有再調整的空間跟必要性但我記得你那時候認為是學習歷程檔案反而是可以"},{"start":589.785,"end":613.503,"text":"讓大家相對更公平可是也有人講到是說為什麼會學習歷程檔案裡面常常就看到我們已經不止一次點出來了每年都點出來一樣的狀況就是學習歷程檔案是有人來做販售的針對這個部分今年來不及了明年怎麼樣來預防或說明年真的能夠讓大家知道說學習歷程檔案不是用錢買臨時報佛腳就可以了這樣怎麼改善"},{"start":613.683,"end":614.723,"text":"有沒有信心因為現在您剛上任嘛那今年9月"},{"start":643.556,"end":667.461,"text":"高二升高三的同學這一屆的同學能夠在我們教育部的說明思考討論之下能夠讓他們在明年要申請學校的時候拿出學習歷程檔案的時候有信心能夠讓同學不要再去坊間購買也不要讓坊間意圖想要購買的這些販賣的這些商機可以消除而是回歸到我們一開始推出來的教育的常態"},{"start":668.063,"end":670.005,"text":"市長我現在就是以您可能也是家長我不知道說您的這個"},{"start":686.943,"end":704.305,"text":"小朋友年紀多大啦抱歉我沒有探尋您個人隱私但一樣嘛如果說有家長會有這樣的焦慮有同學會有這樣的焦慮有些時候是學生他一看到別人學生都去買或是都有這樣的事情回去拜託家長那我不要輸在起跑點上那有些是家長求好心切"},{"start":705.006,"end":731.214,"text":"那有一些更是說可能是一個班級的一個風氣那這就有賴我們教育部去說明啊而不是教育部設計了一個規則之後然後告訴說這個就是家長的問題這個就是學生的問題所以過去沒有解決的狀況因為我們每年差不多4月5月來質詢的時候都會講到而且每年4月5月的時候都會看到坊間就有這樣的一個販售那一樣嘛現在您已經上任了"},{"start":732.208,"end":755.19,"text":"新的政府新的教育部部長次長我們怎麼樣真的能夠根本來解決這問題在明年的4月5月的時候不要再讓我們委員不要再讓國會再討論這樣的一個議題跟委員報告我們現在要做的事情我們現在已經在規劃就是說在會期結束之後因為我們之前有所謂的國教宣講四五年前但是我覺得我們忽略一件事情是每年都有新生的家長都有新的"},{"start":755.23,"end":755.41,"text":"主席"},{"start":773.326,"end":801.083,"text":"這就是本席一開始提出來的初衷我認為既然部長、次長已經有這樣的想法我們一起努力希望讓大家都能夠把學習歷程回歸到常態大家用三年的時間去累積多彩多姿豐富的人生經驗而不是高三的時候才來臨時報佛腳也不是說做得漂漂亮亮印彩色列印就是好的學習歷程不是上網填寫就是好的學習歷程所以"},{"start":802.894,"end":821.683,"text":"規劃全縣市的宣講並且說明這個計劃什麼時候可以出來我們就是好我們回去再去擬我們大概就預計7月中會期結束之後好那也再請提供本席及我們教育文化委員會委員一份好嗎謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0e1fbf0aebef4b78379c37d5c632653374d862afa46997d4e161d917ad305b18e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:00:45 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»:委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查゚∀゚゚"},{"start":118.081,"end":133.51,"text":"我在當議員的時候我們就在議會裡面對於所謂的現在的農藥殘留我們非常的關注來到立法院我想跟你談一件事情2017年前農委會決議在2027年國內化學的農藥有效成分用量要從9139公噸降為4570公噸可是農藥一直到去年2022年五年過去的都沒有明顯的下降"},{"start":146.138,"end":174.428,"text":" bicy 達到10年減半的目標是不可能。你覺得有可能嗎?我跟委員說明,當初在訂農藥10年減半的時候,的確一開始他們是用量的概念去處理量的減半。可是在當年的時候開始去討論,其實我們農藥10年減半的背後的目的是希望讓它的風險,就是農藥對於人的風險能夠降低。所以我們開始把農藥做4種分類。"},{"start":175.848,"end":188.327,"text":" 那農藥劇毒農藥是因為農藥劇毒他只要量很少可是他毒性非常強那這個部分劇毒農藥已經退場的大概已經比我們的機器人已經降了73%那這個部分超過了一半以上"},{"start":190.811,"end":220.674,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":220.674,"end":250.674,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":250.674,"end":271.169,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":271.783,"end":296.357,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":296.357,"end":313.848,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":314.108,"end":332.48,"text":" 我想非常了解,那也非常謝謝委員的關心,特別是劇毒農藥我們退場,那劇毒農藥它的量非常少,但是它很毒。所以我們一旦退場了以後,我們用低風險的去取代,那低風險的它的量會比原來的劇毒農藥多一點,所以你看到總量的部分是降不下來的。"},{"start":333.18,"end":353.391,"text":" bicy 人對人的風險的角度來講他是下降的所以我們針對生物農藥這個部分我們會有明確的數據然後也提供政策的誘因去補助能夠鼓勵我們的農民用這樣的一個藥最後我想講生物農藥這部分我們還是希望他能夠在廣為的推廣並且是有效的推廣"},{"start":353.831,"end":367.284,"text":"adequ能夠增加誘因讓他們來使用我還是要回歸到剛剛說的使用這個雖然你有補助但對他們來說成本較高第二個不知道有沒有效所以在這個部分能不能多加溝通讓他們能夠趕緊轉型"},{"start":369.206,"end":394.363,"text":" bicy 讓我們能夠趕緊知道低風險或者生物農藥正在逐漸的來取代傳統農藥讓國人能夠更加安心而不是看到這些數據我們更加的擔憂我們的農藥量沒有下降的話國人當然就會擔心我們現在的食品衛生會不會有問題這部分請你加油會後是不是能夠提供更有效推廣以及更具競爭的誘因的相關補貼方案給我們"},{"start":395.444,"end":422.025,"text":"好,我想會請我們同仁研議以後再提供給我們的...一個月?兩個月?我想一個月,一個月之內我們把初步的規劃先給委員做參考然後再討論後面的細節。我想這個拜託你,因為我想包括楊瓊瓔委員齁,我們都有一些農民的選民,我們都有一些實用這些植物或者是蔬果相關的一些選民都很擔憂,所以我們希望這部分能夠加緊腳步好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"153964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0355182fd1bb4c3f8c65fab1c545da5d04d862afa46997d4e858267200b5a9bf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:54:13 - 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start":18.252,"end":33.964,"text":"市長早安好辛苦了我想這個內政部統計從這個1990年代台灣的每年的出生率那個時候的出生人次還高達了有30萬人但是2008年的時候已經跌破了20萬"},{"start":35.645,"end":60.362,"text":"同年如果大家還有印象的話其實台灣也開始進行所謂的教改廣設大學那其實人口數慢慢的減少少子化的現象其實早在很久以前我們其實都已經有意識到了那當時其實最高的大學的數量曾經高達了160所那一直到2023年我們的出生人口數現在只剩下135500多人"},{"start":63.285,"end":82.105,"text":"這是去年統計的一個資料那我想這個少子化的一個狀況其實我們都深有同感那尤其是在學校端那不管是大學也好或者是高中職也好其實高中職可能在未來三年還要面臨將近有四五十間的學校可能要面臨退場"},{"start":83.126,"end":109.703,"text":"那大學更是那尤其是在今年其實我們已經知道了有四所四所的大學他們已經宣布要退場連之前其實這個明道大學他們在2022年的時候他們也特別說他們是希望能夠堅持下去因為他們學校關於所謂的農業的科系其實是不是辦得還不錯的但是也很遺憾的就是在今年的7月31號他們也即將要退場"},{"start":112.965,"end":127.811,"text":"目前其實我比較關心的就是彰化縣的這個明道大學的部分因為我們大概知道像大同技術學院或者是東方設計大學等等這其他三間的學生已經有被安排"},{"start":128.37,"end":128.43,"text":"主席"},{"start":143.47,"end":143.63,"text":"主席"},{"start":160.65,"end":180.866,"text":"如果說因為他去這個這個有任何的比如他轉學這個學校的作業費或是住宿的這個費用的差異或是交通費這些我們都會由退場基金來補助就務必使同學不會因為學校的停辦他的轉學而受到任何的這個權益的受損這是我們非常重視的"},{"start":181.627,"end":192.465,"text":"我知道大家都很重視但是現在目前為止是明道大學有要承接的承接方在哪裡目前有這個已經弄得差不多我想請這個梁副市長跟委員報告一下"},{"start":195.373,"end":215.337,"text":"各位委員報告有關明大大學這一部分我們會進行兩梯次的一個安置那目前第一梯次已經相關學校跟同學都已經有在match了然後我們估算大概可能還會再剩下大概100多人我們進行會在學習結束前會進行第二梯次的安置一定會把所有的同學都安置到所以目前不是我剛剛說的205人205人是之前的"},{"start":218.318,"end":247.01,"text":"現在已經剩下一百多人是這樣的意思嗎?對,就是我們會讓他們就在學習結束前我們一定會到安置到任何合適的學校去是,好那我想還是要盡快給校方一個方向我想學生其實在面臨他們在轉型的這個階段他們很多的學生大部分如果是校方提出我們即將要退場其實學生最在意的他們還是希望能夠在原校畢業"},{"start":248.451,"end":264.446,"text":"在原校得到他們的文憑接下來我們看到因為其實在我們的私校他會被列為所謂的專輔列為專輔之後其實大部分應該就是比較有能力的財團可能會來接管"},{"start":267.068,"end":283.343,"text":"但是呢最有能力的財團來接管之後是不是真的有心辦學然後他的公益性以及他的公共性其實也備受挑戰也可能會有一些爭議我舉比方來說學生的宿舍遭到出租"},{"start":284.204,"end":311.287,"text":"學生就被迫必須要另外尋求他住宿的地方然後再來就是他的教室有可能轉為他用這個也是目前我們可以看得到的現象那另外就是原本學校校方的人員他們在人事上被大幅的異動因為財團接手了嘛那這個部分我不曉得次長有沒有瞭解到目前現場的一些狀況其實真的有這麼大的問題產生"},{"start":312.722,"end":330.778,"text":"他如果是閒置空間的出租而且是在符合教育目的的話那這其實是對我們來說這個是可以的所以剛剛委員報告提到這件事情就是說宿舍出租或教室出租我們要去看他使用的目的是符合教育目的如果不是的話那他就不能出租"},{"start":332.506,"end":350.916,"text":"但是有的不是閒置的空間喔 有的是學生的宿舍喔所以這個部分是不是會跟當地的教育局或者是當地的縣市來做跟學校校方更緊密的一個連結才能夠知道他們的現狀 有追蹤嗎 這些"},{"start":354.718,"end":357.341,"text":"今年2月份宣布的停招的大漢技術學院我們以這個學院來作為一個例子那大漢它是位於台灣的東部"},{"start":379.203,"end":400.096,"text":"他有五分之四的學生是來自於所謂的進修部也就是說他日間部的學生大概是100人那他夜間部的學生其實占大多數那現在其實他們就面臨到他們宣布停招之後大漢的學生面臨到不知道該怎麼辦才好因為同樣的一個縣市當中包含花蓮只有慈濟跟東華兩間學校"},{"start":403.037,"end":431.298,"text":"問題是他們的校系他們學校的科系他原本的科系是東華或者是慈濟是沒有的那我不曉得今年宣布要停招的大漢技術學院目前他們你們碰到最大的一個狀況我不曉得有沒有深刻的一些了解跟委員報告大漢的這個有沒有要停辦停辦計畫沒有送到部裡面來所以我們現在不能說他我們不能確定我們沒有辦法說他就已經是要停辦所以這只是校方自己先說的是這意思嗎"},{"start":432.199,"end":459.612,"text":"但我回到委員剛才的問題若是一般性的原則如果今天有學校要停辦他的學生在附近沒有學校是他有相同領域的科學的話我們會在校外開專班我會請別的學校有同領域的這樣的教授在花蓮在那邊開專班讓這些學生幾乎當然還是他們自己的同學一起在專班一直念到畢業所以這個是如果是真的的話我沒有"},{"start":460.292,"end":472.403,"text":"現在你們有沒有直接跟大漢來做一個更進一步的一些聯繫嗎?那你們有試著先主動先去了解這個狀況嗎?有試著主動先了解,那大漢的說法是什麼?"},{"start":475.946,"end":502.817,"text":"跟委員報告假如學校要停招停辦那當然一定要經過校內的程序完備之後才可以把計畫報到教育部那大漢目前他在走他們校內的程序那校內程序走完之後才會把資料報來所以目前我們都還沒有核定他的停招跟停辦因為我們還沒有收到他"},{"start":503.377,"end":506.021,"text":"在花蓮地區我們目前看到的就餐飲"},{"start":516.428,"end":516.448,"text":"〔廣告〕"},{"start":545.306,"end":569.327,"text":"另外最後我再花一點點的時間我來就是想要請教一下我們的教育部教育部針對各校的註冊率其實來判斷所謂的我要不要補助這間學校的一個標準但是這個所謂的註冊率其實它又含有所謂的一個寄存名額的一個方式的一個存在那我想這個寄存名額的部分其實是會美化那個數字那相對的來講"},{"start":570.248,"end":598.507,"text":"其實也會透露出有一些學校他堅持其實已經招不到學生了但是他目前因為董事會還在運作他也有可能因為我的數字要弄得漂亮我教育部會補助嘛他不願意表明我是不是真的要退場這個部分其實我希望教育部可能還是要主動的先去了解因為這很有可能會產生校方尤其是在董事會的一些弊端這個部分這個部分是不是可以"},{"start":599.848,"end":628.948,"text":"有些說明或質詢料也跟委員報告其實寄存招生名額這也是給大學它一個彈性因為其實事實上很多的領域有時候它興起了它今天需要更多可以招更多的人那這個名額其實它可以在動態的去做調整那至於委員剛才提到說它這個數據是會美化或是幹什麼我們其實這些所有的數據我們認為都應該要透明公開所以在大專院大專校院的校務資訊平台上面都可以看得到"},{"start":629.188,"end":642.876,"text":"有沒有可能可以把他實際的注冊率﹖因為也提供給其實有很多的學生﹖他們學生的家長﹖他們也想要做一個參考﹖萬一我進去之後我可能到了大二﹖我要被迫要轉學了﹖我要輟學了﹖是扣除寄存名額的部分嗎﹖還是不是"},{"start":654.923,"end":655.043,"text":"我們會從財務﹚是"},{"start":681.144,"end":681.564,"text":"謝謝,謝謝次長,謝謝主席好,感謝"}]}},{"id":"153963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153963","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba098842f07e3238669737265a8c4a9dd744d862afa46997d4e61eef51270615c565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:55:09 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- 11:01:18","影片長度":"00:08:34","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員蘇清泉等27人擬具「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條條文及增訂附表三草案」案。\n（二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員謝龍介等19人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王鴻薇等29人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員丁學忠等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員顏寬恒等20人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員林思銘等23人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（六）至（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查；第（十一）及（十二）案各黨團若未提出不復議同意書，則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T10:52:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T11:01:18+08:00","duration":514,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時52分）主席，我們請銓敘部。"],["主席：麻煩銓敘部次長。"],["張次長秋元：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：次長好。我想今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是銓敘部，相關這些退撫的法規都是由我們銓敘部來主管。今天一個早上、我在這邊一個早上聽到許多委員真的講得慷慨激昂、令人動容，但是因為今天人多、時間短，所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法，我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘把我個人對今天修法有一些問題來請教，我們把它釐清，因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的，沒有人不關心啊！"],["張次長秋元：是。"],["沈委員發惠：但是這中間有一些問題要釐清。首先就是目前公務人員跟警察這些退撫的基金，基本上，它的財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則，請問一下銓敘部，我們財務規劃的核心原則是什麼？"],["張次長秋元：我們的財務規劃核心原則就是繳費跟給付的權利義務是要對等，也就是在同一個基金的人就繳同樣的錢，然後後面領同樣的基金，因為大家都在沒有工作的狀態之下，剛才很多委員在講說警察工作的危勞，我們要在現職的時候去支持他。"],["沈委員發惠：OK，好，沒有關係。就是說一個基金財務規劃的原則，基本上就是我們繳一樣，我們要領一樣。"],["張次長秋元：對，繳一樣、領一樣。"],["沈委員發惠：這是一個……"],["張次長秋元：不然我們沒辦法對其他人……"],["沈委員發惠：所有基金都一樣，你的財務規劃原則基本上是這個啦！繳一樣所以就領一樣。","接下來我就有第二個問題，如果今天按照這個修法，我們單獨提高警消人員的所得替代率，這樣符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎？"],["張次長秋元：會造成一個不公平，就是同一個基金裡面繳了一樣多，然後有人領多，有人領少。"],["沈委員發惠：繳一樣多，有人領多、有人領少的意思就是說，我繳了這個錢，但是我可能未來要領的被別人領走了。"],["張次長秋元：對，因為基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的。"],["沈委員發惠：所以就變成其實他是增加了這些人的負擔？"],["張次長秋元：對，增加他的財務負擔跟風險。"],["沈委員發惠：增加他的財務負擔跟風險嘛！"],["張次長秋元：對。"],["沈委員發惠：我想這個部分也是等一下我們逐條討論的時候，希望本委員會大家能夠……"],["張次長秋元：這個就是我們最難去解的問題，它就是會造成一個很不公平的情況，而且另外還有幾乎百分之八十是一般公務員。"],["沈委員發惠：但是剛剛有一些委員很激動的講說，我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多，所以我們要就實際來評估，如果說按照這次修法，如果我們提高警消人員的所得替代率的話，就未來支出，我們的估算大概是怎麼樣？"],["張次長秋元：我們未來的支出就是會有2成的衝擊啦！就是本來可以節省，就是把它回補到、挹注到退撫基金的，我們預估每年至少會15億以上，如果算到10年，就已經到150億以上，它是持續會再增加的；另外就是我們增加支出的部分，就是基金要多付出的部分，我們是用每年退休大概1,600個警消人員來估，大概到第30年是每年都會是60億以上，所以它是累加、累加一直上去。"],["沈委員發惠：累加一直上去。"],["張次長秋元：對、對、對，所以會造成雙重的財務衝擊。"],["沈委員發惠：雙重財務衝擊，就是我們整個流出去的就比原來預估的要多很多，但是進來的又少、又減少了？"],["張次長秋元：對，但是這個基金是所有公務人員的。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，我一開始就問過了，是所有公務人員一起的基金，不是警察自己單獨的，不像軍人自己單獨的基金，對不對？"],["張次長秋元：以主管機關的立場，很難去解這個難題啦！"],["沈委員發惠：對。我們剛剛講到公平的原則，今天警消這樣子，假設我們今天通過了這個法案，那公務人員要求比照……"],["張次長秋元：我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要要求比照，要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔。"],["沈委員發惠：那等於……"],["張次長秋元：因為我們現在改得這麼努力，也……"],["沈委員發惠：整個年金改革就回到原點了，對不對？"],["張次長秋元：恐怕不只回到原點。"],["沈委員發惠：不只回到原點嘛！"],["張次長秋元：對，衝擊會更大。"],["沈委員發惠：衝擊會比沒有……"],["張次長秋元：對，會比沒有改還要大。"],["沈委員發惠：我想這些都是我們等一下大家在……希望本委會的委員……"],["張次長秋元：所以不是我們銓敘部……我們銓敘部真的是手心手背都是肉，這個大家要相信我們。"],["沈委員發惠：當然大家剛剛一直描述警消人員工作的辛勞跟危險性，既危險又辛苦，但是如果未來退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣，這樣子……"],["張次長秋元：這樣就會留不住人。"],["沈委員發惠：這樣會留不住人。"],["張次長秋元：有做跟沒有做如果領一樣的話，我們一般人性啦……"],["沈委員發惠：對啊！誰還要留在第一線拚？如果所得替代率到95%……"],["張次長秋元：我們警察同仁很辛苦……"],["沈委員發惠：我退休了，我就不再處在危勞的環境裡面了。"],["張次長秋元：是。"],["沈委員發惠：雖然在職的時候……但是如果領的差不多，大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命吧！"],["張次長秋元：對，過去年改，這個也是一個重要的因素啦！就是現職的跟退休的領一樣，甚至還太接近了，這個其實是不合理的現象。"],["沈委員發惠：當然啦，這個前提，大家今天之所以這麼關心警消還有海巡，很主要是因為他工作的危勞，而這些公務人員裡面，處在危勞環境裡面工作的是只有警消、海巡，還有什麼？"],["張次長秋元：不只，還有其他很多。"],["沈委員發惠：隨便舉個例。"],["張次長秋元：像醫療機構的護理人員也是，然後監所的管理員也都是，這些都是，還有其他的。"],["沈委員發惠：但是這次修法……"],["張次長秋元：還有其他還沒有列到危勞的，我想很多公務人員也會覺得自己的工作很辛苦，所以一定會群起要求要一致，這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝擊。"],["沈委員發惠：我想還有很多問題啦！不過，我的時間到了，我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題，就是說目前我們警正四階以下的跟職等相當的公務人員，他們繳費是相同嘛！"],["張次長秋元：對。"],["沈委員發惠：他們目前的待遇是一樣的嗎？就是相同職等。"],["張次長秋元：我們現在從警佐三階起是有差距的，比一般公務人員會多1萬塊錢。"],["沈委員發惠：就差距不太。"],["張次長秋元：對，如果他的年功到頂，到新北或者是臺北市，會多到3萬5。"],["沈委員發惠：也許對警消這麼危險的工作來講，這是一點點、杯水車薪。"],["張次長秋元：應該啦、應該啦。"],["沈委員發惠：但是如果所得替代率提高的話，未來退休以後他們的差距會很大，對不對？"],["張次長秋元：現在大概都差1萬。"],["沈委員發惠：如果今天修法，提高警消人員的……"],["張次長秋元：會更大，至少會比公務人員大概多1萬5千塊以上，比同等階的會多1萬5千塊。"],["沈委員發惠：我想這個都是有公平性的，今天……"],["張次長秋元：這樣可能很多一般公務人員是心裡沒有辦法接受。"],["沈委員發惠：因為今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容、慷慨激昂的陳述，甚至有人說我們目前同樣都是危勞，警察跟軍人比，就是把警察當作二等公民；但是如果今天我們就這樣子修法，沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則，那不是就把其他公務人員當作三等公民嗎？是這樣的概念嗎？"],["張次長秋元：我們擔心的就是這樣子。"],["沈委員發惠：我希望本委員會今天思考我們年金改革……"],["張次長秋元：這個核心邏輯如果被破壞掉以後，很多都會講不通。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝，希望等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教，謝謝。"],["張次長秋元：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在11點了，我們先來處理臨時提案。臨時提案共1案，宣讀後就進行處理，請宣讀。","臨時提案1（修正本）","鑒於近日新竹市高樓社區「晴空匯」，深夜發生火警2名消防員在火場疑似氣瓶耗盡，倒臥梯間不幸殉職，而2人求救音檔內容，與新竹市消防局先前對外說明的內容有出入。","另近日彰化縣警察局爆出登記退休意願潮，警政署強調為每年度事先退休意願調查，實際退休人數不會那麼多，惟近年社會風氣和民眾權益高漲，讓員警在值勤時遇到較多突發狀況，進而影響員警留任意願。","茲爰請內政部：","一、「分就警政、消防體系督察部門的運作現況進行成效比較分析，並就待改善部門提出精進強化方案」，於三個月內提供書面報告。","二、評估「為加強現職警消人員人身安全及保障，編列預算補助警消人員購買個人裝備」可行性，並於一個月內提供書面報告。","三、「檢討現有義警、義交及義消人身安全保險項目，並研議增列因公殉職者遺屬照顧年金給付方式」，於三個月內提出書面報告。","提案人：鍾佳濱　　王美惠　　黃　捷"],["主席：謝謝。針對臨時提案第1案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有。"],["主席：針對臨時提案，請問機關有沒有其他的意見或說明？機關這邊有沒有？（無）沒有。如果沒有的話，我們就依……","請羅委員。"],["羅委員智強：對這個臨時提案我覺得非常認同，但是既然是內政部的部分，我就加一個修正的提案動議，就是剛剛在答詢過程當中，我發現警政署及消防署其實都很支持今天委員們的提案，甚至警政署也說他們會努力地針對我們的案子跟其他的政府單位協調、溝通，其實主要是銓敘部。所以我們建議在三點裡面加上第一點，就是請內政部、尤其是警政署如何與銓敘部等政府單位溝通，按照今天我們的提案優化、改善今天警消退休的相關福利待遇，修正文字可能整理一下，我就提上去，好不好？"],["主席：請鍾委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得兩個提案的性質不太一樣，是不是請羅委員另外提一個案，我們都可以支持，但是提案性質不同，一個是就現職人員的安全保障，一個是退休人員的福利待遇，我覺得大家的提案互相支持，但是併在一起恐怕……方向上，我們這一案是內政部主管，是不是羅委員你也可以提一個案子，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：我覺得現役跟退休是一體的，實際上本來就相關的一些……今天警察跟消防人員遇到這樣的問題，如果是現役的，我們當然支持，但是退休的部分，我覺得是要一體去看，所以我們今天把這個提案併起來，一起來討論，我覺得是比較有實益的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可以……"],["羅委員智強：我就是要提我的修正提案動議，到時候你可以反對啊，對不對？"],["主席：請陳委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：我覺得因為民進黨鍾委員這個臨時提案裡頭也有說到彰化警局爆出登記退休意願潮，事實上羅委員提的修正動議是合理的，所以我們要把在職的跟退休的都要列入考慮，不然看起來提這種案子好像是鍾委員等都非常地支持警察現行部門的改進、精進、現職人員的保障、買個人裝備、義消這些、殉職的部分、年金的照顧方式，但還是沒有回到我們今天的議題，就是我們對於退職的警消、移民署的退職人員是不是要照顧，所以寫在裡頭可以兼顧，還是你們覺得退休的不用照顧，但現職的我們多照顧？"],["沈委員發惠：不要這樣子講話。"],["主席：沒有，一個、一個來。","請沈委員。"],["沈委員發惠：主席，我想從來沒有說在委員會提案一定要跟今天的主題有關，陳玉珍委員這麼久了，對不對？今天相關的部會來，所以就臨時提案。我覺得臨時提案整個過程裡面大部分大家都是尊重提案的委員，你同意或者不同意，不同意的話就不同意這個案子通過，如果同意……你提出這個完全是可以分成兩個案子，不是非得併為一個案子。你可以提修正動議，你提修正動議，我們就來處理，如果真的連這種臨時提案都要用表決來解決的話，我就不知道所為何來。所以我希望大家就尊重提案委員，如果有什麼樣的文字修正，大家可以提，但是不要在那邊說什麼你這個提案是要怎麼樣，這樣講話不好，我不曉得你們內政委員會是這種風格，至少在司法，喔，他不是內政。"],["主席：陳委員要補充。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為沈委員提到我，本席要特別說明一下。因為他的提案內容說明裡頭有講到彰化警局爆出登記退休意願潮，與退休有關，所以我們才會說把退休警員的照顧也一併寫在裡頭，這個不是特別說要提怎麼樣。我們當然也是支持這樣的案子，對於現職警員、警政、消防的照顧，我們也是非常地支持，只是對於退休的部分，我們想可以兼併，當然，這跟今天的主題沒有關係，但是我感覺民進黨很像是不是就不支持這些退休的員警、消防人員，然後就要提一個好像你們很支持的提案，試圖魚目混珠，我不是反對你們的案子。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就原案處理嘛！"],["主席：等一下，我們先停一下。我們休息5分鐘，讓他們去洗手間，然後你們溝通一下、協調一下，5分鐘，大家討論一下。","休息（11時7分）","繼續開會（11時21分）"],["主席：謝謝各位的耐性，我們現在繼續會議。","我們有新收臨時提案第2案，請宣讀。","臨時提案2","針對警政署長詢答表示針對今日提案改善警消退休人員待遇之「警察人員人事條例修正第三十五條」相關內容，願與銓敘部等相關政府機關溝通，請警政署於一個月內提出說帖。","提案人：羅智強　　傅崐萁　　林思銘　　謝龍介　　翁曉玲"],["主席：謝謝。臨時提案二案均已宣讀完畢，現在逐案審理。","先處理臨時提案第1案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","針對臨時提案，請問機關有無其他意見或補充？","署長，請說。"],["張署長榮興：三個月。"],["主席：署長希望改成三個月，不知道鍾委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他應該是指第2案，不是指第1案。"],["主席：第1案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第1案本來就已經修正為三個月了。"],["張署長榮興：對，……"],["主席：我們先討論第1案，謝謝署長，現在討論第1案。不好意思，是我的錯，我沒有講清楚。","請問一下，就第1案的部分，機關有無其他意見、說明或補充？","署長，請問一下，臨時提案第1案在第二點是說「一個月內提供書面報告」，第三點是「三個月」，請問你剛剛說的三個月是指第二點，還是第三點？"],["張署長榮興：我講的是第2案。"],["主席：你講的是第2案，好，那沒問題。","謝謝各位。請問一下，就臨時提案第1案，各位有無其他意見？（無）沒有的話，我們就依照修正後的文字通過。","現在討論臨時提案第2案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？（無）","針對臨時提案第2案，請問機關有無其他意見或說明？"],["張署長榮興：是否一個月改三個月，說帖改說明？"],["主席：請問就第2案修正後的文字，各位委員有沒有不同意見？（無）好，沒有的話，臨時提案第2案就依照修正後的文字通過，改為三個月。","謝謝各位，我們接下來繼續詢答。請翁曉玲委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":282,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","蘇清泉","謝龍介","丁學忠","游顥","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","蘇巧慧","王美惠","羅智強","牛煦庭","沈發惠","陳玉珍","翁曉玲","林思銘","黃捷","黃建賓","黃國昌","許宇甄","莊瑞雄","徐欣瑩","張智倫","鄭天財Sra 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等16人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條及第三十六條\n條文修正草案」案、(十)委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」\n案、(十一)委員游顥等38人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員\n張智倫等17人擬具「警察人員人事條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136301_00011"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.332843750000002,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.62784375,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.33221875,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.875343750000003,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.65159375,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.10534375,"end":39.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.99096875,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.25659375,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.23096875,"end":47.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.820968750000006,"end":86.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.51096875,"end":89.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.68784375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.79721875,"end":107.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.40659375000001,"end":120.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.18284375,"end":108.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.76846875000001,"end":118.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.79721875000001,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.46784375000001,"end":124.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.73284375000001,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.92659375000001,"end":128.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.16659375,"end":136.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.25846875000002,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.39721875,"end":145.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.91534375,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.71221875,"end":155.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.12909375,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.68971875,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.07784375,"end":159.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.33909375000002,"end":163.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.11534375000002,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.60034375,"end":172.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.84471875,"end":166.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.43846875,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.24846875,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.79659375,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.81346875,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.58471875,"end":198.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.86909375000002,"end":201.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.90659375,"end":202.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.00346875000002,"end":205.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.37846875000002,"end":209.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.85471875000002,"end":210.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.33971875,"end":232.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.68096875,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.12346875,"end":218.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.43971875000003,"end":219.84471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.23159375,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.90596875000003,"end":239.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.07471875000002,"end":233.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.57221875000002,"end":236.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.67721875,"end":239.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.84159375000002,"end":245.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.28409375,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.54971875,"end":245.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.19096875000002,"end":245.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.30909375000002,"end":245.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.41034375,"end":246.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.38909375000003,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.84471875000003,"end":253.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.99159375000002,"end":258.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.81409375,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.41284375000004,"end":260.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.04096875,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.32346875,"end":269.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.14909375,"end":271.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.11096875000004,"end":281.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.96159375,"end":284.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.27784375000005,"end":285.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.23534375,"end":288.17159375},{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text":"主席我們請全序部麻煩全序部次長市長好市長好我想這個今天其實最重要的主管機關應該是全序部因為相關的這些退府的這些法規都是由我們全序部來主管"},{"start":37.165,"end":46.712,"text":"今天一個早上我在這邊一個早上聽到這個許多的委員是真的我看講得慷慨激昂令人動容"},{"start":48.255,"end":70.569,"text":"但是因為今天人多時間短所以我就沒有辦法闡述我個人的想法那我趕快利用這短短的6分鐘就是把我個人對今天修法的一些問題就來請教我們把它釐清因為大家對警察人員的關心都是一致的沒有人不關心但是我們需要中間有一些問題要釐清"},{"start":72.33,"end":84.086,"text":"首先就是說這個我們這個目前的這些公務員跟警察這些退府的基金喔他是基本上財務規劃應該有一個核心的原則請問一下我們全序部我們這種財務規劃核心原則是什麼"},{"start":87.517,"end":87.637,"text":"二）委員二）委員"},{"start":115.422,"end":115.582,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":137.321,"end":158.019,"text":"那這樣子符合剛剛所講的這個原則嗎?會造成一個不公平就是同一個基金裡面有繳的一樣多然後有人領多有人領少那有繳一樣多有人領多有人領少的意思就是說有人我繳了這個錢但是我的這個可能未來要領的被領少了基金財務是大家一起共同去負擔的"},{"start":158.769,"end":181.141,"text":"所以他就變成他其實他是增加了這些人增加財務負擔跟風險增加財務負擔風險這個就我想這部分也是大家在等一下我們主條討論的時候希望大家能夠本委員這個就是我們最難去解的問題他就是造成一個很不公平的這樣另外還有80%的一般公務員"},{"start":182.662,"end":197.807,"text":"但是剛有一些委員很激動的講說我們國家這幾年稅收有剩這麼多所以我們就實際來評估如果說按照就這些的修法如果我們提高警察人員所得替代率的話就未來支出我們的估算大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":198.865,"end":200.185,"text":"二）委員萬美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":228.814,"end":228.914,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":249.924,"end":269.158,"text":"但是這個基金是所謂有公務人員的?我知道一開始就問過所有公務人員一起的基金嘛不是警察自己不像軍人是警察組的基金嘛對不對以主管機關立場很難去解這個難題對那我們剛剛講到公平的原則那今天請教這樣子那假設啦假設我們今天通過了這個法案那公務人員要求比照"},{"start":270.185,"end":293.02,"text":"公務員要求比照我覺得一般公教人員一定會想要求比照嘛那要求比照之後就會變成基金原來的這個機制可能就沒有辦法承擔了因為我們現在改了這麼努力整個年齡改革就回到原點了對不對恐怕不只回到原點不只回到原點所以這個衝擊會更大衝擊會比沒有年齡改革更大"},{"start":298.045,"end":319.937,"text":"我想這些都是我們等一下大家在希望說這個我們本委會的委員所以不是我們全區部齁全區部我們真的是手心手背都是肉這個大家要相信我們這個當然啦大家剛剛一直描述這個警消人員工作的這個辛勞跟危險性啊既危險又辛苦但是"},{"start":320.777,"end":347.623,"text":"如果說未來我退休的警察跟現在還在第一線拚的警察領的一樣這樣子這樣就會留不住人有時候就沒有如果領一樣的話一般人性啦我們警察都很辛苦我退休了我就不再處在危牢的環境裡面雖然說在職的時候在但是如果說領的就差不多那大概一般警察不會想要在第一線拚命"},{"start":348.403,"end":348.503,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":375.172,"end":384.778,"text":"指責警、蕭、海巡、還有其他其他很多,像這個醫療機構的護理人員也是,然後那個監所的管理人員也都是,這些都是,還有其他的。"},{"start":390.761,"end":416.308,"text":"其他他還沒有列到為老的人我想很多供應人會覺得自己的工作很辛苦所以一定會群起要要求要一致那這樣可能基金的財務就會受到更大的衝突我想還有很多問題不過我時間到我再問最後一個我個人覺得很關鍵的問題就是說現在目前目前我們這個警政事階以下的這個跟值等相當的公務人員他們的這個"},{"start":419.189,"end":419.369,"text":"二）委員"},{"start":429.408,"end":455.384,"text":"對,我們現在就是他這個從井左三街他是有差距的,他就比辦公人就會多一萬塊錢嘛。就差距比較大。對,但如果他從民工到頂,那如果到新北或者是台北市,這也許對井消這麼危險的工作來講這是一點點背水扭水。應該啦,應該啦。但是如果所得利害率把它提高的話,那未來退休以後他們的差距會很大對不對?"},{"start":457.446,"end":459.489,"text":"警察人員人事條例第三"},{"start":472.644,"end":498.217,"text":"這樣可能很多一般公務員是心裡沒有辦法接受今天整個上午我也聽到很多令人動容的這些慷慨激昂的陳述甚至有人說我們目前同樣都在圍牢這個警察跟軍人比先是把警察當作二等公民但是如果我們今天就這樣子修法沒有再去考慮剛剛所講的這些原則那不是就把其他公務員當作三等公民嗎是這樣的概念嗎"},{"start":499.912,"end":511.32,"text":"我認為我希望說本委會在今天的這個思考我們年金改革就是這個合金邏輯如果被破壞掉以後很多都會講不通謝謝我們等一下希望說等一下法條討論的時候我們還有機會再來請教謝謝"}]}},{"id":"153960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153960","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba00d31392b7725567179c37d5c632653374d862afa46997d4e709bb89bbee775365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:49:55 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10:59:47","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案。\n(委員楊瓊瓔等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)【6月12日及13日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T10:49:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T10:59:47+08:00","duration":592,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時50分）謝謝主席，我想要請陳部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：陳部長早安！植物診療師法這個東西其實原本大家有疑義的，就是在於我們的宣傳沒有成效，讓農民以及農藥業者產生這樣子不當的聯想，如果是能夠來協助農民，對於農作物的耕種都能夠有利的時候，我們當然大力支持，尤其要支持我們召委楊瓊瓔委員的版本，好不好？你怎麼想？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的支持，因為整個跟利害關係人，包括農民、農藥業者，還有一些其他技師工會，甚至醫師工會，我們做了非常多的溝通，因為這個版本從106年就開始推了，現在的溝通，我想大家都贊同我們這個方式，特別是我們有100位的儲備醫師，過去3年在地方上的一個運作，也讓農民、也讓農會，還有市政府感受到這樣一個植物醫師的協助，所以我想我們會朝這個方向一起來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。我想要請問衛福部食藥署，現在在的是哪一位？"],["主席：來，我們請衛福部。"],["周簡任技正珮如：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請周技正跟部長一起。部長，對於進口乳品，你們有要求食藥署要將進口乳品更名為長效乳，這也是一般我們臺灣酪農為了區別我們自己的鮮乳跟紐西蘭進口鮮乳的差別，希望在名字上面有些許的區別，讓我們本土的酪農能夠在鮮乳的銷售上面有利基。其實他們已經很擔心了，因為現在市面上已經充斥著紐西蘭的乳品，即便是還沒零關稅，現在這樣的情況都已經讓他們的銷售，不管是夏天、冬天，在最近銷售量都不是很好的情況下，怎麼樣來保障？你已經要求了嘛，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，跟委員說明……"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼食藥署還是不同意？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們跟衛福部有一個很好的溝通管道，當初我們也的確有建議，因為我們沒辦法用要求，我們是用建議的方式請衛福部考慮用我們的方案二，就是長效乳，但是衛福部可能基於他們的專業也有一些其他的考量，所以我們現在正在積極的溝通，我也可以……"],["謝委員衣鳯：衛福部食藥署有什麼考量？等一下也說明一下，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對於我們的溝通，包括我跟衛福部邱部長的溝通，我想也相當的順暢，我們是朝向更樂觀的一個角度，因為現在法案在預告期嘛，預告期任何單位都可以提供意見，包括農業部，我們也再次正式行文給衛福部，我們希望用長效乳，相關的酪農也會反映出這樣的聲音，在預告期結束，甚至於在預告期結束之前，我想我們應該會有更明確的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你有跟邱部長溝通，那你有跟食藥署署長溝通嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我是跟部長溝通，我直接跟部長溝通。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長說好，說不定食藥署覺得窒礙難行耶，會不會？請食藥署說一下。"],["周簡任技正珮如：委員好，有關6月5號的預告，目前是預告期，正在蒐集各界的意見，預告期結束，我們會就各界的意見來斟酌處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在本土的酪農認為只要有鮮乳、長效鮮乳或者ESL鮮乳等等，有鮮乳的字樣，就會影響到消費者在購買時候的一個區別嘛，是不是？食藥署怎麼樣子？"],["周簡任技正珮如：這個是我們收到的意見之一，我們也會慎重的考慮。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們內部呢？部長說跟你們邱部長有溝通，你們食藥署內部呢？有沒有討論？"],["周簡任技正珮如：有，因為在我們的預告期間其實進來的意見很多，也包括農業部……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那你們部裡面討論的意見如何？"],["周簡任技正珮如：我們就是會把所有的意見都蒐集起來一併做討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是說你們署裡面耶，你們會不會按照邱部長的看法？部長說跟你們邱部長溝通得很好啊，可是你們食藥署呢？"],["周簡任技正珮如：我們食藥署其實是部裡的一個單位啦，我們是同一個機關，最後都會一起共同討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，所以你們會按照部長的意見嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我替食藥署回答一下，因為相關食藥署的法規是預告60天嘛，在60天完了以後，我相信他們會用更專業的角度，依據我們外界的聲音，然後去做一個判斷。我剛才說的我跟衛福部長溝通，其實我們是朝共同的、同樣的目標去努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為部長剛來啊，說不定食藥署不想要聽部長的啊，是不是？對不對？也不一定會溝通……"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們政府……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你還是要保障我們本土酪農……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我的立場非常明確，我會盡最大的力去跟衛福部溝通。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長溝通了……"],["陳部長駿季：政府是一體的，我相信……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我覺得署裡面也是要去協調一下，不然到時候意見不一致欸，對不對？是不是？陳部長？"],["陳部長駿季：我會再請我們相關單位去跟食藥署溝通啦，因為我是跟部長溝通，如果以我的身分可以去跟食藥署署長溝通，我也願意啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：你就找你們相對等的啦，你找你們部裡面對等的單位去溝通一下嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會再持續去做一個有效的溝通。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。","再來，你們有研擬養牛產業全面升級轉型計畫來輔導產業升級因應，已經獲得行政院核可經費18.6億，其中補助產業淘汰低產乳牛每頭2萬，這個部分有些酪農在去年其實就已經陸陸續續淘汰了，你知道嘛，就是乳品市場的問題嘛……"],["陳部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以他們陸陸續續配合政策都已經淘汰這些乳牛了，是不是能夠追溯納入計畫喔？"],["陳部長駿季：對於這個部分，很多委員都有這樣的意見，然後我們在政策上跟酪農討論的過程中，我們也宣示了，就是希望大家一起努力讓我們的酪農產業更健康，所以我們的確也決定希望能做追溯的一個動作，但是因為追溯必須要去報院，我們也已經要報院，希望能夠追溯到去年12月開始，因為它是跨年的，我必須要報院，我們會朝這個目標來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。還有你曾經說過要區隔國產跟國外的鮮乳，所以要積極的推動鮮乳標章，這個部分的進展如何？"],["陳部長駿季：鮮乳標章我們已經設計好了，我們預計7月1號上路，整個的鮮乳標章，其實我們當初是想要搭配長效乳的變更啦，因為長效乳的變更是整個市場區隔的另一個重要手段，相對的，這些國產鮮乳的標章，我們會更落實的去推動，讓消費者認同飲用國產的鮮乳是愛護我們臺灣的生態，因為它是一個低碳的產品，對於我們整個地球的環境是更有幫助的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有一點，不好意思，主席，再借一點時間喔。還有就是，其實現在已經有進口的長效乳品了，所以業者都很擔心進口乳品混合國產鮮乳來販賣、銷售，這個部分怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個是在我們市場區隔上一個非常重要的把關，我們已經開發出國產鮮乳跟進口鮮乳差異的鑑別技術……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們有鑑別的技術了？"],["陳部長駿季：已經有鑑別的技術了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有溯源的技術了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們後續會有一些溯源搭配，然後會有市場抽查，當你有這個技術的時候，其實業者就會害怕啦，你沒有技術他就不怕。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這是最重要的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以技術的開發非常重要，我們已經有這個技術了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。部長，你剛剛還搶先幫食藥署講話，它給你的預告就已經預告了「鮮乳」，它已經對不起你了，你還替它講話，今天我建議你，每一個委員都關心，這是國人的安全，把我們今天國會頻道所有委員的發言全部給食藥署聽，對不對？因為7到10度，它的安全性明明有危險嘛！明明有高風險嘛！對不對？所以我們支持你，一定要堅持，不可以什麼「長效鮮乳」，會讓民眾混淆視聽，對不對？你要堅持，我們國內14天以內的才是鮮乳，進口30天以上的就是長效乳，這是很清楚的啊！好不好？要明確啦！還要替食藥署講什麼話！"],["陳部長駿季：我們還是很堅定的。"],["主席：對，這樣就對了！好，謝謝。","我們接下來請羅廷瑋委員。","對不起，我在台上聽每一位委員發言，你這麼老實、這麼客氣，難怪被欺負啊！來，請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-16","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","邱議瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","賴瑞隆","謝衣鳯","羅廷瑋","黃國昌","黃秀芳","陳超明","徐富癸","邱志偉","洪孟楷","林岱樺"],"page_start":153,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員陳素月等17人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案；二、本院委員邱議瑩等17人擬\n具「植物診療師法草案」案；三、本院委員楊瓊瓔等24人擬具「植物診療師法草案」案","agenda_id":"1136201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.193468750000001,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.15534375,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.53471875,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.63909375,"end":24.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.11159375,"end":24.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.49971875,"end":57.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.80909375,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.650343750000005,"end":69.28596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.75846875,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.49596875,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.40284375,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.01846875000001,"end":86.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.22409375000001,"end":91.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.93221875,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.45409375000001,"end":101.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.81596875000001,"end":107.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.74409375,"end":107.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.70596875000001,"end":111.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.92534375000001,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.24534375,"end":113.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.42659375000001,"end":136.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.92096875000001,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.78784375,"end":156.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.58034375,"end":166.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.19471875000002,"end":168.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.52346875,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.56471875,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.73284375,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.88034375,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.63096875000002,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.81221875,"end":185.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.16659375,"end":187.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.54596875000001,"end":188.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.11534375000002,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.93784375,"end":195.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.24096875,"end":205.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.80471875,"end":211.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.74471875,"end":216.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.08596875,"end":219.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.27096875,"end":224.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.04221875000002,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.20659375000002,"end":226.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.48909375000002,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.96409375000002,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.68846875000003,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.14409375000002,"end":248.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.22409375,"end":250.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.33784375000002,"end":251.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.94096875000002,"end":253.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.40909375,"end":256.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.62846875000002,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.29034375000003,"end":260.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.66534375000003,"end":260.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.50909375000003,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.70534375,"end":275.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.46471875000003,"end":275.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.63346875,"end":275.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.97096875,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.88346875,"end":299.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.57471875000005,"end":300.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.96284375000005,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.03034375000004,"end":301.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.75596875,"end":301.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.77284375,"end":301.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.03846875,"end":303.0553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️ ️"},{"start":156.561,"end":181.561,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":185.904,"end":205.234,"text":"為什麼食藥署還是不同意?我跟委員說明,我想我們跟衛生部有一個很好的溝通管道。當初我們也的確建議了,因為我們沒辦法用要求,我們用建議的方式請衛生部考慮用我們的方案二,就是長效乳。"},{"start":205.828,"end":227.415,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":227.415,"end":251.903,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":251.983,"end":259.881,"text":"我跟部長溝通。我直接跟部長溝通。部長說好,說不定食藥署覺得自愛難行,會不會?食藥署你說一下。"},{"start":262.01,"end":281.77,"text":"議員好,那有關這個6月5號的預告呢,那目前是預告期,那正在預告期收集各界的意見,那預告期結束我們會就各界的意見來斟酌處理。那現在本土的酪農認為說,就是只要有鮮乳,長效鮮乳或者是"},{"start":283.251,"end":301.968,"text":" proporting the question about the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL, will it affect the difference between pre-melted ESL and pre-melted ESL and pre-"},{"start":303.086,"end":308.509,"text":" »: 部長說跟你們邱部長有溝通。你們食藥署內部勒?有沒有討論?"},{"start":308.509,"end":317.655,"text":"»: 有。這個因為我們預告期間其實進來的意見很多。那所以也包括這個... »: 那你們部裡面討論的意見如何?"},{"start":317.655,"end":331.084,"text":"»: 我們就是會再把所有的意見都收集起來一併做討論。 »: 我是說你們署裡面勒?你們會不會按照邱部長?部長說跟你們邱部長溝通得很好啊。可是你們食藥署勒?"},{"start":332.713,"end":343.005,"text":"我們食藥署其實是部裡的一個單位啦,所以我們是同一個機關。對,那最後都會一起共同討論。好,所以你們會按照部長的意見嗎?"},{"start":345.01,"end":363.488,"text":"我替食藥組回答一下,因為相關的食藥組的法規是預告60天嘛。那60天完了以後我相信會用更專業的角度然後依據我們外界的聲音去做一個判斷。那我剛才說的我跟衛福部長溝通其實我們是朝共同的同樣的目標去努力。"},{"start":364.75,"end":391.791,"text":"因為部長剛來啊。說不定食藥署不想要聽部長的啊。是不是?對不對?也不一定會溝通。你還是要保障我們本土落農的一個啊。所以我的立場非常明確喔。那我會用最大的盡力去跟衛福部去溝通。你那個部長溝通了,我覺得你署裡面也是要去協調一下。不然到時候意見不一致了欸。對不對?是不是?部長?陳部長?"},{"start":394.179,"end":394.342,"text":"我想..."},{"start":395.538,"end":425.538,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":425.538,"end":449.701,"text":" ️ ️ ️ ️ ️"},{"start":449.701,"end":469.684,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":470.213,"end":498.746,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":499.002,"end":522.329,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":522.469,"end":543.695,"text":" »: 引用國產的鮮乳是一個愛護我們臺灣的生態,因為它是一個低碳的產品,對於我們整個地球的環境是更有幫助的。」好,還有一點,不好意思主席再借一點時間喔。還有就是喔,其實現在已經有進口的這個長效的"},{"start":544.684,"end":561.937,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":561.937,"end":591.067,"text":" ️ ️ ️"}]}},{"id":"153959","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153959","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0a61671cf3054b412560592432c08898eae5baf1b56d477344fa46b23f99a9e655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:44:47 - 10:55:10","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T10:44:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T10:55:10+08:00","duration":623,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":894,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時44分）謝謝主席，請吳常次。"],["主席：好，請吳常次。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：常次好，我想請教一下，民進黨立委沈伯洋說，第五縱隊不完全是中共的間諜，也可能不是一開始就背叛國家，但中共可能威脅在中國做生意，或是有妻小在中國的人，他說這類高風險族群有幾十萬人，一開始就要管好，臺灣人也可能被中共威脅，會為其做事，可能在立法院、地方宮廟都有，一開始都要管理好。我想請教一下常次，他講的這個第五縱隊，而且也把立法院放進去，就是也把立委暗指可能是第五縱隊的成員，那請問您到立法院備詢會擔心嗎？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，實際上第五縱隊的定義我並不是特別清楚，不過依照人民的自由，我想相關權益都要獲得保障，我想是這樣。"],["許委員宇甄：所以針對他說的這個部分，他說不管是宮廟還有黑幫都是內政部的業務範圍，那內政部有沒有在管理他所謂的中高風險族群呢？"],["吳次長堂安：是，我想跟委員報告，內政部主管的部分是宗教司，有關於寺廟登記都是內政部這邊執行的業務，其實內政部對於寺廟登記的業務有做管理，主要是這樣子而已。"],["許委員宇甄：好，是不是現在來臺工作的大陸籍人士都是屬於高風險族群呢？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，大陸人士如果要來臺灣，在陸委會這邊要審查資格，我們這邊是由移民署針對他的身分進行來臺的資格調查，然後會同陸委會，主要是這樣。"],["許委員宇甄：他還特別提到，就是因為這個部分，所以在這邊要請教內政部，有沒有所謂的專門作戰中心來因應第五縱隊跟潛在的在地協助者？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員垂詢，並沒有這個東西。"],["許委員宇甄：好，為什麼我會特別提到這個第五縱隊？請問一下次長，你認不認同沈伯洋委員的這種認知說法？"],["吳次長堂安：跟委員報告，我想在立院，各位委員都有他表達的自由。"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼我會特別提到呢？因為在內政部書面報告第1頁所提到的，以新住民來說，有59萬6,162人，其中大陸、港澳地區大概有38萬5,026人，占了64.58%，外籍配偶人數大概是21萬1,136人，我們可以看得出來，超過六成以上的新住民都是來自大陸跟港澳地區，針對這個部分，內政部在推動各項措施時有提到會強化新住民社會適應的方案。請問一下，會不會以國家安全有高度風險，而以監控為前提進行規劃呢？"],["吳次長堂安：謝謝委員垂詢，關於移民政策，其實我們沒有考慮到那個部分，因為移民身分的組成，主要就是您剛剛講的婚姻移民，這部分大陸跟來自其他各國的都將近超過一半，在這個組成中，我們應該是要輔導新住民如何融入我國的生活，我們對於新住民的政策主要是以這個方式。"],["許委員宇甄：希望我們針對不同地區來的新住民都不要有差別待遇，希望都是用一致的標準對待這些嫁到我們臺灣來，或是融入我們臺灣的這些新住民，不要用這種認知作戰的方式來威脅大家、恐嚇大家，我覺得這部分請內政部一定要有特別的作法，針對不同族群能夠有一致的標準。"],["吳次長堂安：是的，我們會來處理。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。接下來請原住民的曾主委跟客委會的古主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委還有古主委。謝謝吳常次。"],["許委員宇甄：我想先請教一下曾主委，在5月30日時高金召委已經有排過你的業務報告，當時您對原民會的業務還不是很熟悉，經過兩個禮拜了，那我現在針對賴總統提出來的政見跟您請教幾個問題。","首先，有關2023年賴總統請原民會務必審慎、積極的處理平埔族正名的後續法制工作，讓平埔族的身分認同獲得保障。請問一下，上次本席也有請教過您，針對平埔族獲得原住民族身分之後的相關權益，上次主委也有提到，我也請教過您，平埔族被正名以後可不可以買原住民的保留地？主委說可以，但這樣對原住民公平嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在的法令是不行啦，未來他取得原住民身分之後，那麼他的權益到底是要跟原住民一模一樣，還是要有一些不同，尤其是土地的部分，他們的傳統領域是不是要劃入原住民保留地，後續還要跟他們討論。"],["許委員宇甄：這個影響非常大，所以可能要請曾主委好好的思考。針對這個部分，剛剛高金召委有提到，平埔族有98萬人，我們現有原住民才五十幾萬人，這樣子的權益包括你剛剛講的編列預算等各方面，甚至剛剛提到禁伐補償條例的26億都還要用現有的經費去支出，這都排擠到原來原住民的相關預算，所以這個問題可能要麻煩主委特別、特別用心的處理。","還有一個問題請教主委，以雲林為例，雲林的平埔族社區包括他里霧社、猴悶社、柴里社、貓兒干社、南社、笨港社、西螺社，未來平埔族取得身分之後，是不是可以主張他們的傳統領域？未來這些區域所有的開發都要跟部落公告，進行部落會議，跟平埔族諮商，並取得平埔族的同意之後才能開發嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：他們取得身分之後，未來我們一定還會跟他們做很多諮商，大家一起來討論後續有關權利義務的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：所以平埔族正名之後要處理的問題非常多，包括上一次質詢時，我也有提到那些問題，還有今天提到這些問題，請你們一定要多多注意。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：接下來我要請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：請教一下，之前陽明交通大學以產學合作之名，要在客家學院校區興建商辦大樓，客委會只有在5月1號呼籲陽明交通大學要保存。但是我剛剛看到今天客委會的報告是都會區各族群權益保障措施跟精進方案，也沒有提到這一件發生在都會區的大事，然後你在報告第2頁又提到積極重建客庄，投入相關資源於都會客家，推展客家藝文文化等等，持續在都會區復振客家文化，型塑都會客家新貌。請問主委，針對這個部分，您現在有什麼看法？"],["古主任委員秀妃：關於陽明交大這件事情，我們希望可以保留當地的景觀，也維護當地文化及地貌，希望他們的歷史、文化可以保留下來，這是我們的立場。","再來，其實5月7日陽明交大已經終止這個地點，群聯電子已經不補助陽明交通大學興建大樓了，所以這個案子已經結束了。結束之後，我們的立場也一致要保留客家文化、地景，未來我們可能……"],["許委員宇甄：所以古主委的意思是，目前已經取消了興建大樓的計畫嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["許委員宇甄：這其實對我們客家文化保存有非常重要的意義。","另外再請教您，平埔族正名取得身分之後，會不會跟客家族群的權益有所衝突，客委會有沒有進行相關的研究？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前沒有任何的衝突，因為那還是原住民的法案，跟客家比較沒有相關，所以目前沒有衝突，與客家地區比較沒有關係。"],["許委員宇甄：但是平埔族過去的部落可能會跟客家族群有所重疊，要請客委會特別針對這兩者文化在同一個區塊共存共榮的發展，好嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝委員，過去我們針對客家與原住民的生活、歷史來做互為主體的研究，當然客家跟平埔族也有很多重疊性，我們可以從歷史層面得知這些，也可以針對這部分做進一步的研究、瞭解，沒有問題！"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝古主委。","吳召委，不好意思，剛剛您來之前我就先宣布要休息5分鐘。現在休息5分鐘，待會開會。","休息（10時55分）","繼續開會（11時2分）"],["主席：謝謝，請大家回座，安靜一下，我們準備開始質詢。","好，繼續有請吳琪銘召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","林倩綺","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳瑩","盧縣一","黃建賓","丁學忠","莊瑞雄"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-06-13"],"gazette_id":"1136101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住\n民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原\n住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推\n動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政\n部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136101_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.844093750000001,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.12534375,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.715968750000002,"end":61.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.52346875,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.73846875,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.12909375000001,"end":89.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.14784375,"end":100.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.05846875,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.19284375000001,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":100.35284375,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.81596875000001,"end":112.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":112.92471875000001,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.70784375000001,"end":129.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.83784375000002,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.04034375,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.10784375,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":139.85721875000002,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.01721875,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.72159375,"end":154.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":155.21346875,"end":160.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.34346875,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":160.59659375,"end":160.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":208.26846875,"end":220.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":220.92471875,"end":225.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":225.95346875,"end":226.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":226.71284375000002,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.42096875000001,"end":257.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":257.15534375000004,"end":258.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.77971875000003,"end":257.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.64034375,"end":263.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.48346875000004,"end":265.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.51659375,"end":268.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.29221875,"end":305.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.55284375,"end":326.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.33846875,"end":332.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.38034375,"end":329.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.19846875,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.04221875,"end":336.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.78846875000005,"end":347.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.74034375,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.13221875000005,"end":403.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.54159375,"end":414.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.88596875,"end":417.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.31596875,"end":425.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.50034375,"end":425.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.85471875,"end":425.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.92221875,"end":427.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.41534375000003,"end":444.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.15784375000004,"end":431.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.14284375000005,"end":475.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.41659375,"end":487.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.10659375000006,"end":497.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.42159375000006,"end":501.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.07909375,"end":504.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.04909375000005,"end":513.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.1997187500001,"end":520.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.15221875,"end":524.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.53971875,"end":529.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.5134687500001,"end":530.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.96909375,"end":551.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.76596875,"end":534.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.37346875,"end":536.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.2078437499999,"en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請吳長賜"},{"start":19.038,"end":35.114,"text":"我想請教一下就是民進黨的立委沈伯陽說這個第五縱隊就是不完全是這個中共的間諜也不是可能不是一開始就背叛國家但中共可能威脅在中國做生意或有七小在中國的人"},{"start":36.115,"end":60.221,"text":"那他說這類的高風險族群有幾十萬人一開始就要管好那台灣也有可能被中共威脅會為其做事可能在立法院、地方宮廟這些都有一開始可能都要管理好我想請教一下長賜就是他講的這個第五縱隊而且也把立法院放進去就是也把立委這個案子有可能是第五縱隊的成員那請問您到立法院備詢會擔心嗎?"},{"start":63.096,"end":88.658,"text":"跟委員報告因為實際上所謂的第五宗這個定義我並不是特別清楚不過依照人民的自由我想相關權利都要獲得保障所以針對他說的這個部分他說因為事實上不管是宮廟還有他有提到什麼黑幫都是內政部的業務範圍內政部有沒有在管理他所謂的中高風險的族群"},{"start":89.358,"end":112.478,"text":"是,我想跟委員報告,那內政部執管的部分是那個有關宗教師啦那當然有關的寺廟登記都是在內政部這邊執行業務那其實我們對於寺廟的登記的業務部分這個部分內政部是有管理到主要是這樣子而已那好,現在是不是來台工作的這個大陸籍人士都是屬於高風險族群呢?"},{"start":113.545,"end":124.779,"text":"這邊跟委員報告,那個大陸人士如果要來台灣,大家大概有行,比如說在陸委會這邊要審查資格,那我們在這邊是移民署的部分,是針對他的身份的部分,那我們會進行一個"},{"start":125.979,"end":154.276,"text":"他來台的資格調查,會同陸委會。」主要是這樣。他還特別提到,因為這個部分,所以在這邊要請教內政部有沒有所謂的專門的作戰中心來因應這個第五縱隊跟潛在的在地協助者。謝謝委員吹噓,這個,並沒有這個東西。那我想為什麼我會特別提到這個第五縱隊,那請問一下這個次長,就是你認不認同這個沈伯陽委員的這種認知說法?"},{"start":156.031,"end":171.561,"text":"這跟委員報告好那我想在立院各位委員都有他表達的自由為什麼我會特別提到呢是因為在內政部的書面報告第一頁所提到的我們以新住民來說有59萬6162人其中大陸港澳地區大概有38萬5026人佔了64.58%那外籍配合人數大概是21萬1136人那我們可以看得出來"},{"start":186.05,"end":207.035,"text":"超過六成以上的新住民都是來自大陸跟港澳地區所以針對這個部分,內政部在推動各項措施的時候有提到說會強化新住民社會適應的方案那請問一下,會不會以國家安全有高度的風險而以監控為前提進行規劃呢?"},{"start":208.545,"end":230.491,"text":"謝謝委員推行我想這個移民政策的部分其實我們是沒有考慮到那個部分因為他的移民的身份的組成主要就是您剛講的有婚姻移民那這個部分大陸跟那個來自其他各國的都差不多一半那我想這個在組成裡面我們應該是說輔導新住民如何融入我國如何融入我國的生活那我們對於新住民的政策主要是以這個方式"},{"start":231.508,"end":257.578,"text":"希望說我們針對不同地區來的這個新住民都能夠有這個不要有差別待遇希望都是能一致的標準來去對待這些嫁到我們台灣來或是融入我們台灣的這些新住民希望能夠不要用這種認知作戰的方式還來威脅大家恐嚇大家我覺得這個部分可能請內政部一定要有特別的這個針對這個不同的族群能夠一致的標準是的我們會來處理"},{"start":259.78,"end":265.106,"text":"謝謝那接下來我們請原住民的曾主委跟客委會的谷主委尤其曾主委還有谷主委謝謝謝謝吳長賜謝謝"},{"start":273.236,"end":289.73,"text":"我想先請教一下曾主委就是在5月30的時候我們高金召委已經有拍過您的業務報告當時您對這個原民會的業務還不是很熟悉那經過了兩個禮拜了那我現在針對您所提出來賴總統的政見跟您請教幾個問題"},{"start":291.992,"end":318.861,"text":"首先有關這個2023年賴總統請原民會務必審慎積極的處理平埔族證明後續的法治工作讓平埔族的身份認同感獲得保障請問一下上次本席也有請教過您針對平埔族獲得這個原民族的身份之後的相關的權益那上次主委有提到我也有請教您說"},{"start":320.421,"end":347.111,"text":"證明後可不可以買原住民的保留地?主委說可以但這樣對原住民公平嗎?現在的法令是不行那未來就是說他起的原住民身份之後那麼他的權益到底是要跟原住民是一模一樣還是要有一些這個尤其是土地的部分他們的傳統利益是不是要劃入我們原住民的變成原住民保留地這個還要後期來跟他們來做討論"},{"start":348.353,"end":369.091,"text":"這個影響非常大所以可能要請這曾主委要好好的來去針對這個部分因為剛剛我想高進、趙偉提到賓府只有98萬人我們現有的原住民才50幾萬人這樣子的一個權益包括說包括你剛剛講的編列預算各方面甚至禁法補償條例剛剛提到的都26億都還要用現有的經費去做支出"},{"start":369.912,"end":388.277,"text":"排擠到我們原來原住民的相關的運算。」所以這個部分可能要麻煩主委要特別特別的用心來處理這樣的一個問題那還有一個問題請教主委就是以雲林為例雲林的平埔族社區有包括他禮物、鴻門社、彩禮社、馬爾幹社、南社、邓崗社、西螺社"},{"start":388.917,"end":411.325,"text":"未來平埔族取得身份之後是不是可以主張他們的傳統領域那未來這些區域所有的開發都要跟部落公告進行部落會議跟平埔族諮商並取得平埔族的這個同意之後才能開發嗎?他們取得身份之後未來我們一定還會跟他們做很多的諮商還有就是大家一起來討論後續的有關潛力義務的問題"},{"start":415.232,"end":427.518,"text":"所以平虎竹證明之後要處理的問題非常多包括上一次諮詢的時候我也有提到的那些問題還有今天提到這些問題所以請你們一定要多多注意接下來我要請谷主委"},{"start":429.414,"end":444.306,"text":"李燕皓之前陽明交通大學與產學合作之名要把客家學院校區興建商辦大樓那客委只有在5月1號呼籲陽明交通大學要保存但是我剛剛"},{"start":445.507,"end":474.967,"text":"看到你今天的客委會的報告是都會區各族群權益保障措施跟精進方案那有沒有提到這件事情發生在都會區的一個大事然後你在報告第二也有指到積極重建客庄投入相關資源於都會客家然後推展客家藝文或文化等等在持續在都會區復振客家文化形塑都會客家新貌請問主委針對這個部分您現在有什麼看法"},{"start":475.968,"end":481.973,"text":"陽明交代一件事,我們支持希望可以保留當地的景觀與美腹當地的文化,所以希望在歷史文化地盤可以保留下來,這是我們的立場。在五月7號的時節,其實已經"},{"start":502.129,"end":505.631,"text":"已終止其提點,已無可補儲本,已交通太好,內需太多,所以已結束。」當然結束後,我們的立場和全國保留客家基金、客家文化的一致,所以未來我們可能可以跟"},{"start":530.663,"end":551.434,"text":"所以谷主委的意思是這個目前已經取消了這個新辦大樓的這個計畫是嗎?我想這部分的話其實對我們客家的這個文化的保存有非常重要的意義那另外再請教您就是平埔族證明取得身份之後會不會跟客家族群的權益有所衝突?那客委會有沒有進行相關的研究?"},{"start":552.254,"end":579.79,"text":"目前沒有英雄的衝突,因為原住民法案部分跟客家沒有相關,所以也沒有衝突,跟客家的提起也沒有關係。但是平埔族過去的部落可能會跟客家族群會有重疊到,所以說可能要請客委會特別針對這兩者的文化在同一個區塊共存共榮的發展好嗎?"},{"start":580.639,"end":585.963,"text":"好,要感謝委員,過去我們針對客家跟原住民,有針對客家跟原住民的選法歷史,來做研究,互為主體的研究,當然客家跟原住民的評估處,也有該度的重疊性的部分,也要我們第一題,歷史當中的第一題,也可以針對這個部分,進一步的做研究,來了解,沒問題。"},{"start":610.021,"end":610.181,"text":"感謝委員"}]}},{"id":"153958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/153958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cf02c7fc60cc7ba0858da75aa1f74315560592432c08898eae5baf1b56d47734ec0cca0d9de94f6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:34:39 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10:44:43","影片長度":"00:10:04","會議時間":"2024-06-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請原住民族委員會、內政部、文化部、客家委員會就「都會區原住民族、客家族群、新住民權益保障措施與精進方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、邀請原住民族委員會、財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會、財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會就「賴清德總統原住民族政見推動規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。三、邀請行政院、原住民族委員會、行政院主計總處、財政部就「114年度原住民族委員會預算籌編情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-13","start_time":"2024-06-13T10:34:39+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-13T10:44:43+08:00","duration":604,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第24次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":24,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-24"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":838,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時34分）謝謝主席，請原民會曾主委。"],["主席：有請曾主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。首先，我想要請教一下，我們今天要談論都市地區原住民族的處境，在還沒有立專法之前，現在都市地區原住民族的發展方案裡面，我有看到一個非常重要的計畫，教育部有在都市地區的中小學開設原住民族文化特色課程，我認為這個是非常好的政策，我看到去年的計畫有10個縣市、29個學校參與，對嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，教育部推的。"],["黃委員捷：請問原民會在當中的角色是什麼？我會這樣問是因為高雄非常特別，高雄是全臺灣唯一一個有16族原住民族的縣市，我也非常重視，我看到這個課程認為原民會若在當中有非常重要的角色，也有協助這樣的課程參與的話，在高雄是不是也可以大力推動呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：教育部是負責一般的學校，我們原民會是負責原住民地區的重點學校。"],["黃委員捷：好，我想要建議，我剛剛也講過高雄16族都有，高雄市也非常積極的把16族的文化都保存起來，也希望可以積極發展，所以也希望接下來原民會可以多多重視高雄的原住民族相關文化的保存，如果高雄的學校需要協助的話，你們也積極配合，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，都會區的部分會特別注意。"],["黃委員捷：再來，我要請教一下進度，在今年5月6日也就是一個月之前，院長有來高雄視察國立原住民族博物館，這個國家級博物館其實在高雄也推了10年，好不容易接下來要準備開始籌備了，可是目前還看不到任何動工的進度，本來預計要到2032年才有機會完工，我當然希望可以提早動工、提早籌備、提早開始，因為我知道其實前期作業已經做得非常充足，包括可行性評估、環境影響評估都做得差不多了，接下來就是時程的問題，不知道有沒有機會提前完工呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們已經在5月29日成立籌備專案小組，而且開過兩次專案小組會議，我們希望能夠修訂原博館的暫行組織規程，還有辦事細則，我們希望很快的讓籌備小組、專案小組趕快先做，然後籌備處趕快先成立。"],["黃委員捷：好，所以籌備處現在的進度如何，什麼時候可以開工？先告訴我什麼時候動工就好，因為我看到新聞報導說要等到明年才動工，是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個動工進度是委由高雄市政府來做的，我們會密切跟高雄市政府溝通，希望趕快來做，我們的專案小組成立之後就會很快跟高雄市政府做更進一步的溝通，讓它速度快一點。"],["黃委員捷：真的要拜託，因為我們都很期待。再來，請教原住民保留地開發管理辦法，其實我前兩次質詢也都有問，之前我有問到目前法律位階過低的問題，導致之前都有一些相關的爭議，包括原保地的流失，甚至有一些例子是不當透過人頭轉賣給非原住民，這些問題其實在新聞上都有出現。我想問的是，現在有一個非常重要的，提升法律位階的方式，就是原住民族保留地管理利用條例草案，之前原民會也希望要提升它的法律位階，原民會應該籌備已久才對，什麼時候院版要送進來？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們是有版本，但是我們還需要跨部會，讓其他部會瞭解一下位階的提升會碰到什麼樣的問題。"],["黃委員捷：所以有在溝通了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們希望……"],["黃委員捷：這個會期或下個會期，什麼時候？"],["曾主任委員智勇：希望在年底，好不好？"],["黃委員捷：好，年底之前把原住民族保留地管理利用條例送進立法院，這是原民會的承諾？"],["曾主任委員智勇：年底送行政院，然後我們再送大院。"],["黃委員捷：年底送行政院？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，因為還要跨部會協商。"],["黃委員捷：所以還要再半年？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：可不可以年底送進來立法院？我們召委也非常關心。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們努力，好不好？"],["黃委員捷：好啦，希望你有魄力一點，把積極度拿出來，拜託了，謝謝。剩下一點時間，請古主委。"],["主席：謝謝曾主委，有請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：古主委好，我要請教一下，之前客家基本法裡面提到，我們要把客家語言發展法在這個基礎之上也送進來，這個進度我也一直在追，我上一次質詢時有問到，現在行政立法的協調會已經有開了，其實後來有一些比較有爭議的條文，應該也都有處理了，包括之前有一個比較爭議的是，是否要有一個客語發展長的職位。","另外，客家重點發展地裡面的公務人員比例，取得客語能力的比例要跟在地的客家人口比例一致，之前有一些地方政府反映：這在實行上可能會有困難。後來這些爭議你們也都有去協調了，對嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有協調，但是還是要經過各部會協商討論才有辦法進一步定案。"],["黃委員捷：好，所以現在我想問的是，如果協調結果順利的話，我們接下來是不是就把這些沒有爭議的版本送進來呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前還有一些小小的爭議……"],["黃委員捷：除了這兩個比較大的爭議點之外，還有一些還在溝通的嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：還有、還有，所以還沒辦法這麼快送來立法院。"],["黃委員捷：好，其實我覺得有一些可以送進來再討論，像是用鼓勵的性質，把客語作為優先通行語的這件事情，其實送進來大家都可以再討論，看是不是用鼓勵性質、獎勵性質，或者是怎麼樣讓地方政府在特定的公部門一定要設置這樣的客語單位，這些都是我希望可以再努力的部分。"],["古主任委員秀妃：完全認同黃委員的看法，用鼓勵而不用罰則，不是用處罰的方式……"],["黃委員捷：是啦！不要有罰則啦，當然希望用鼓勵代替責備，因為講母語這件事情不應該是用懲罰的方式，懲罰的方式其實只會造成反效果，所以我也希望可以儘量讓你們先去盤點一下，目前使用的比例是多少，如何用一些具體的措施來獎勵嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，我們現在來協調。"],["黃委員捷：這個部分希望能趕快，把這個相關爭議處理好之後，看什麼時候送進來。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，我們盡快跟各部會協調，看有哪些條文還要修改，我們會盡速處理。"],["黃委員捷：好，年底是不是可以？有機會嗎？其實我覺得剩下的溝通細節都已經不是太大的爭議了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們朝這樣的方向去努力。"],["黃委員捷：最後，也是上一次我有詢問的，關於客語輸入法，其實我在上一次質詢時說要寄信跟Apple和Google反映，我們有一些輸入法可以去溝通，現在還要再協調，關於這個輸入法，我們是不是也有在技術上做更新了呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：向委員報告，現在我們手機的輸入法還有拼音，預計在9月就可以完成、就可以使用。"],["黃委員捷：對，我知道，上一次主委也有講過。"],["古主任委員秀妃：9月就可以……"],["黃委員捷：只是那個iOS的部分……"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯，因為現在顯示字的問題有困難，目前行政院也請其他部會，包括數發部還有經濟部來跟系統業者協調，在協調結果還沒有出來之前，會用圖片的方式表達較為困難的字，這是目前我們的作法。"],["黃委員捷：好，希望可以借重數發部的專業，趕快把這個協調好，不管是要用圖片或什麼方式，其實都很好，趕快讓所有想要使用母語輸入的人都可以達成這個目標，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝古主委，謝謝。","待會許宇甄委員發言完畢就先休息5分鐘。","請許宇甄委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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masalu（謝謝）。"],["黃委員仁：jiawajiaway（大家好）。今天我也很感慨，前面幾個立委詢問你的時候，你都是狀況外，狀況外還不打緊，很多重要的議題你都在打馬虎眼，對原住民的提升完全沒有幫助，而且是向下沉淪。本席特別提醒你，我們從今而後要不斷地盯住你對原住民的政策，不要總統府的潘孟安秘書長推薦你做主委之後，他是滿頭豆花。你要站在這個位置上，上次我也提醒你，全國人在看你有沒有帶領我們原住民進步跟發展，讓原住民的地位被認定。我們不是要跟人家爭，也不是要跟人家比較，我們要回歸歷史的真相，要還原真相，給我們在臺灣真正被認同的原住民族，這就是我今天要特別提醒你的。","請問一下禁伐補償，過去二十幾年你也提到禁伐補償，希望能夠照顧到偏鄉或是在山裡的原住民，而且能夠落實，我們從幾萬塊、三萬塊，到這一次三讀通過提升為六萬塊，陳瑩立委還有伍麗華立委都同意，我們不分政黨都同意，希望趕快爭取禁伐補償能夠不在你原有的預算之內編列，應該在3兆以上來爭取原住民的禁伐補償，這是直接對原住民照顧，怎麼會一直想不出來？你一直在裡面繞，說禁伐補償是不是在預算裡面編列26億？不對，不要被主計總處引導你的思維，你要替原住民爭取，既然三讀通過就要為我們增加預算，不是在你們原有的預算裡面編列出來，這個概念難道沒有嗎？今天你剛上任，禁伐補償讓全國領取六萬塊，是德政一個，你現在卻一問三不知，說還在編列預算、還在思考。原住民沒有思考的空間，我們只有進步的空間，沒有退步的空間。現在三讀通過，你就是要針對這個議題為原住民爭取預算，這就是你的責任，不是到後來踢皮球說因為怎麼樣、怎麼樣，你要跟院會雙向溝通。我們為什麼會提高這個？我們反觀現在百工百業，你看一下百工百業，甚至原住民現在的經濟能力下滑，都沒有辦法提升，農業的部分沒有辦法出去，觀光沒有辦法循環經濟，造成他們現在的生活處境每況愈下，情何以堪？前任總統蔡英文曾經對全國原住民道歉的目的在哪裡？就是要還原歷史、還原真相，要實質照顧原住民的基礎建設，包含生活、歷史，還有生存的定義、土地的保障，今天我要講的是原住民賦予給我們的保留地要怎麼釋放，我曾經也跟你講過，我下次要好好問你。","第二個，未來的原住民空間不是縮小。再來，我們沒有反對平埔族回歸原住民的歷史，我們沒有反對，民國111年的時候，在新北市市議會有召開全國原住民民意代表的會議，包含頭目、耆老，針對平埔族回歸的態度表達很多的一些方針，但是這涉及16族未來的生存，包含參政權，包含教育、土地的立場，你們為什麼不循著客家委員會？以前沒有客家委員會的時候，他們為什麼要爭取客家委員會，因為他們要受到文化的尊重，延續他們的民族、歷史。今天我們沒有反對平埔族回來，但是你們為什麼不循著客家委員會的政策來做具有獨立性的？再來看看他們的預算怎麼編列，按照現在的人口數來編列，而不是再混淆到平地人、山地人的16族。","請問我們最早的祖先曾經在臺灣被罵什麼？「死蕃仔」！是誰講的？「死蕃仔」不是我們原住民講的，「死蕃仔」是非常歧視，是對原住民的不尊重，是誰講的？這些祖先過去遭受不同文化的抨擊、被歧視、被趕到山上，請問現在平埔族要回來了，為什麼不跟過去，你們跟我們的祖先併在一起接受歷史的考驗？到現在，你要去思考這個思維，原住民在這個地方沒有要跟人家做競爭，我們希望給我們的是一個保障，對我們的歷史和現在的土地要真正的還原歷史。所以我們常常講原住民族保留地為什麼要放寬使用，你要讓他有自主經濟能力、循環能力，讓他們自足自給，有關於水源地、山坡地之外，在原基法裡面賦予的原保地，應該給他們放寬使用，也讓他們有循環經濟，讓他們可以跟銀行作為質押、借貸，建設他們自己的產業，這樣才可以實質照顧原住民本身的基本生活條件，這就是你的責任，未來我一定會再問你基本的原基法、土海法，這些土地的放寬使用，未來我一定會慢慢地質詢你，以上。"],["主席：非常謝謝黃仁委員的質詢，也謝謝曾主委。","請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":460,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-24","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張宏陸","牛煦庭","黃仁","黃捷","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩你"},{"start":27.338,"end":51.024,"text":"今天我也很感慨前任的幾個立委在詢問你的時候你都是在狀況外那狀況外還不打緊很多的重要的議題你都是在打馬敷衍對我們原住民的提升"},{"start":52.967,"end":74.566,"text":"完全沒有幫助而且是向下沉淪所以我特別本席特別提醒你我們從今而後我們不斷的要盯住你對原住民的政策你不要到時候潘孟安我們的總統府秘書長提名你作為主委之後他是饅頭豆花"},{"start":76.321,"end":97.78,"text":"滿頭豆花你要站在這個位置上上次我也提醒你是全國人在看你有沒有帶領著我們原住民的進步跟發展跟被認定我們的原住民的地位我們地位不是要跟人家戰爭也不是跟人家要做比較"},{"start":98.701,"end":113.713,"text":"我們要回歸到歷史的真相,要懷疑真相,要給我們一個真正的、認同的原住民族在台灣。」這就是我今天要特別提醒你,禁法補償"},{"start":115.57,"end":139.107,"text":"請問一下進法補償你過去也二十幾年前你也提到進法補償希望能夠照顧到我們這個偏鄉或是在山嶺的這些原住民能夠落實從幾萬塊、三萬塊而進額到這一次的三度通過提升為六萬塊陳寅立委還有吳立華立委都同意"},{"start":140.437,"end":160.155,"text":"我們不分政黨都同意希望趕快進法補償能夠來爭取不在你的預算之內來編列應該在三兆以上來爭取原住民的進法補償是直接的對原住民的照顧"},{"start":161.616,"end":170.42,"text":"那怎麼會一直想不出來你一直在裡面打擾打擾說我這進法補償是不是在你的編列預算裡面來編列這個26億不對主席數"},{"start":175.038,"end":199.704,"text":"你不要被主席所引導你的思維你今天要替原住民爭取說既然三讀通過就是要為我們的預算要增加不是在你的預算裡面來編列出來所以這個概念難道沒有嗎?如果你在今天你是剛上任為禁法補償全國裡面的這些6萬塊你是得勝一個"},{"start":203.845,"end":204.546,"text":"你現在就是要為我們三讀通過的這個議題裡面"},{"start":222.657,"end":239.887,"text":"要為原住民的預算要爭取這就是你的責任不是到後來是提皮球說因為怎麼樣怎麼樣你要跟業務會要雙向溝通我們為什麼會提高這個"},{"start":240.908,"end":267.347,"text":"我們訪官現在百工百業百工百業你看一下我們百工百業甚至原住民現在的經濟經濟能力下滑都沒有辦法提升農業農業的這個部分沒有辦法出去光光沒有辦法來循環的經濟造成他們現在的生活處境煤礦業下情何以堪"},{"start":269.655,"end":295.174,"text":"總統蔡英文承認蔡英文曾經對我們全國原住民道歉的目的在哪裡就是懷疑歷史、懷疑真相就是要實質要照顧原住民的基礎的一個建設包含他的生活、包含他的歷史還有他的生存的定義、土地的保障今天我們要講的是原住民富裕給我們的原住民保留地要怎麼釋放"},{"start":296.118,"end":297.279,"text":"第二、我們未來的原住民空間不是縮小第二、我們"},{"start":309.508,"end":337.403,"text":"沒有反對平埔署回歸原住民的歷史我們沒有反對我們在民國11年的時候我已經在我們在新北市市議會裡面有召開全國的民意代表的原住民民意代表包含頭目齊老的會議針對我們平埔署的回歸的態度表達了我們很多的一些方針"},{"start":338.783,"end":353.811,"text":"但是這涉入到我們16屬的未來的生存包含參政前包含教育土地的立場那你們為什麼不循著不循著什麼"},{"start":355.543,"end":383.236,"text":"客家委員會為以前在客家委員會沒有的時候那為什麼他們要爭取客家委員會也因為他們要受到他們的文化的尊重他們延續他們的民族的延續的歷史那今天評普組回來我們沒有反對但是你們為什麼不循著跟客家委員會的這樣的一個政策來做"},{"start":385.55,"end":414.073,"text":"來做獨立性的然後再來看看他們的預算怎麼編列以按照他現在的人口數來做編列而不是在毀搖到我們16組平定人和山定人的16組請問我們最早的祖先曾經在這個台灣上被罵什麼西華納是誰講的不是我們原住民講的西華納西華納是一個是非常啟示對原住民的不尊重這誰講的"},{"start":417.947,"end":437.719,"text":"這些祖先過去遭受這樣的民族的不同的文化被抨擊、被啟示、被趕到山上請問現在平埔鼠要回來了那為什麼不跟過去你們跟我們的祖先並在一起接受歷史的考驗"},{"start":439,"end":457.031,"text":"到現在你要去思考這個思維原住民在這個地方我們沒有個人家要做競爭我們希望給我們的是一個保障對我們的歷史跟我們現在的土地要有一個真正的還原歷史"},{"start":458.132,"end":474.548,"text":"所以我們常講說原住民的保留地為什麼要放寬使用你要讓他有自主經濟能力、行款能力然後讓他們自主自給但是有關於我們水銀地、山坡地之外"},{"start":475.589,"end":493.438,"text":"他復育在延期法裡面復育的原保地應該給他們一個放寬的使用也讓他們有循環的經濟也讓他們跟銀行作為值貸借貸然後去建設他的自己的這些產業"},{"start":495.019,"end":516.14,"text":"這樣才是實質的可以照顧到原住民的本身的基本生活的條件這就是你的責任我未來我一定會再問你基本的延期法、土海法這一些土地的放寬使用未來我一定會慢慢的質詢你以上好,非常謝謝華人委員的質詢也謝謝曾助委,謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}