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蔡處長"},{"start":2162.096,"end":2181.204,"text":"全序部法規司專門委員廖康儒委員內政部民政司檢任視察、檢疫委員視察教育部人事處專門委員謝正凱文化部"},{"start":2182.574,"end":2204.804,"text":"影視流行音樂發展師專委陳怡靜行政院人事行政總處培訓考用專門委員賴佳陽組織人力處視察陳文綺現在進行協商司法法制、交通委員會併案"},{"start":2206.921,"end":2221.159,"text":"審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案等四案及院會晉附二讀委員賴世寶等24人委員李燕秀等23人提案"},{"start":2221.88,"end":2241.066,"text":"法案審查會於5月1日審查完略,審查進行第四條含修正動議、第八條及第十條均保留送院會處理,並決議院會討論前交由黨團協商另院會第十二次會議將委員賴世寶等24人提案盡負二讀等14次會議"},{"start":2243.024,"end":2258.308,"text":"第十四次會議再將委員李燕秀等23人提案淨複二讀與相關提案併案協商以上共計六案與今日併案進行協商協商時請參閱協商條文對照表審查報告及淨複二讀提案關係文書與會委員若有修正動議或機關有建議內容請提出書面應發現場進行討論"},{"start":2271.072,"end":2291.927,"text":"現在開始進行協商第四條審查會保留委員提案及修正動議共六個版本應願會交付禁服二讀併案協商委員提案兩個版本現在開始協商現在請各黨團代表表示意見莊委員"},{"start":2295.104,"end":2317.159,"text":"謝謝朝委還有我們在場各黨團的一個代表我們今天這個黨團協商我想我還是不厭其煩的再來提出來請各位去看到第54頁的部分54頁這個地方大家就會記這個是54對54傅崐萁等33人提案這個部分各位把它去看到第二"},{"start":2318.22,"end":2343.266,"text":"提名同意程序上審查會通過的名單對行政院長吳絕對的拘束力應以符合大法官釋字第613號的解釋文這個其實我光看這個提案的說明我就覺得怪怪的啦這個就其實有點弱調了嘛你如果真的要認為說這沒有侵害到行政權的話我相信在整個立法理由裡面不會去講說審查會通過了"},{"start":2345.166,"end":2364.627,"text":"這些名單對行政院長沒有拘束力也符合大法官釋字第613大法官會議613號依我的潛見的一個看法就是說你這個整個通訊傳播委員會它到底不是屬於行政機關的一環如果大家肯認它是屬於行政的一環的話"},{"start":2366.149,"end":2392.668,"text":"到底行政院對於通傳會委員在人事決定權是不是夠完整基於權力分立這樣的一個原則立法院當然可以來對整個行使同意權這些行政院送過來施予一定的一個限制來加以制衡這個本席可以贊同但是完全去把它給實質剝奪或者說進而把它給取代的話這個我想可能會有很大的一個問題"},{"start":2393.871,"end":2405.341,"text":"那我看這個整個傅總昭、傅坤祺的這個條文裡面大家可能也去看到了所以我到現在還是沒有來,不然我想問問他為什麼說我們審查會通過了對行政院長沒有技術力應該是符合這邏輯我是不通,我看其實有點心虛"},{"start":2416.803,"end":2431.174,"text":"到底要不要保留給行政院長對獨立機關重要人士唯一的一個決定權施予他什麼樣的一個制衡設什麼樣的限制本席倒沒有什麼意見但完全去把它剝奪這個可能就怪怪的啦那從過去組織法這個違憲的理由裡面"},{"start":2435.357,"end":2459.295,"text":"我相信大家會提到就是說這個會不會剝奪到行政院的一個人事的一個任命權或者是剩下形式上提名跟任命權簡單來講以前都是提名加審查是政黨比例那現在很多委員的版本裡面提名歸行政院但是都是給足了審查委員實質的一個審查權而且還是按照政黨的比例去做一個分配"},{"start":2460.075,"end":2484.091,"text":"這個跟過去大法官實質631號解釋其實人事決定權的部分實質去剝奪沒有什麼樣的一個兩樣過去你看我給大家回憶一下2006年宣告違憲這樣的一個設計就是在2005年的時候到底發生什麼事當初審查委員是按照政黨比例國民黨4、民進黨4、親民黨2、台聯1共11會審查NGC的委員"},{"start":2491.356,"end":2495.24,"text":"審查NC委員國民黨6、民進黨6、親民黨2、台聯1、行政院本身有3人審查委員至少7位同意,結果投票,投了三輪"},{"start":2508.471,"end":2510.052,"text":"審查委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":2530.276,"end":2548.095,"text":"我把它看那個名單看一看過去全部都是一時之選你知道邵玉明博士、王宗瑜中綱董事長、薛香川國會副主委、蔡薰雄國政基金會執行長全部都是社會選黨可是碰到投票的時候每一個人都乖乖現行到了第二輪投票的時候審查委員也只有民進黨"},{"start":2551.579,"end":2575.862,"text":"投完後面的四票因為第一次就投出了選出了九位而已那國民黨、親民黨還是沒有完整去投票那最後選出了三位直到第三輪的時候才投完那我的意思就是說嚴格去做審查第三輪投完不是不可以但是從這個過程我們可以看得出來其實到最後還是政黨大家自己的一個立場那外界到最後"},{"start":2577.343,"end":2596.468,"text":"審查完被外界批評就是說這個審查不公正為什麼社會賢達或者說經歷學經歷完整的委員都讓人家懷疑我記得後來啊被選出來的委員就清大電機系的呃呃呂教授系主任他說深深感受到對委員造成黨派陰影跟被愚弄所以拒絕被提名"},{"start":2597.288,"end":2618.309,"text":"電信學者林依萍、陳明憲、傳播學者翁秀琦等接著請辭,最後就任只有九位我要提出這一段跟大家做回憶的就是說其實如果NCC淪為黨派干預的結果的話原本需要各個領域裡面的專長的或者實務背景的審查要件"},{"start":2619.17,"end":2634.799,"text":"政黨一介入其實到最後可能把這些專長都不管你了立法院在行使同意權的時候管你有什麼專長大家都政黨有自己的一個看法所以連當時沒有擔任主委的蘇永青就國民黨所推薦的蘇教授他是怎麼講的他說電信學者請辭會造成嚴重的後果"},{"start":2639.682,"end":2644.165,"text":"因為NCC委員組成有傳播、法律、電信、經濟這領域四條腿缺一條你就不得動談所以我要把這些再重新讓大家來做一個回顧做一個回顧以上但是4至第613的部分我期待大家可以再好好的"},{"start":2663.118,"end":2683.112,"text":"再仔細來看一下否則真的到最後來講的話可能我們出去了以後還是會步上上一次2006年又抵觸到整個四次大法官大法官憲法法庭的一個這樣一個解釋以上提供各黨派的委員來做一個參考 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員那個 那黃委員沒關係 因為剛剛黃委員說先讓黃委員"},{"start":2692.795,"end":2715.137,"text":"黃委員謝謝主席針對有關於這一次NCC組織法上面的修正台灣民眾黨黨團的立場非常的清楚我們認為在整個提名階段的時候符合4至613號解釋就必須讓我們的行政院院長"},{"start":2716.803,"end":2720.732,"text":"讓行政院院長他一開始的時候有推薦人選的權利"},{"start":2725.213,"end":2749.244,"text":"剛剛鍾月璇委員提到4-613號解釋我覺得非常好大家在看4-613解釋的時候當初到底是怎麼宣告違憲的要一體的來看什麼叫做要一體的來看當初是怎麼設計的當初是連推薦人選的時候我們當時的立法者所設計的都是政黨比例推薦"},{"start":2750.484,"end":2776.92,"text":"人選的第一個階段就是由政黨比例推薦18個人選裡面行政院院長只能夠推3個這個是在4-613號解釋被詬病最深的我大概念一下好了因為我們在討論大法官解釋就要認真討論大法官解釋了大法官在解釋理由當中清楚地講"},{"start":2778.561,"end":2793.138,"text":"但是依通傳會組織法第四條、第二項、第三項的規定通傳會委員僅由各政黨依其在立法院所佔席次比例共推薦15名"},{"start":2794.68,"end":2807.612,"text":"行政院院長推薦三名然後交由各政黨所佔席次比例推薦的學者專家組成的審查會以五分之三與二分之一的兩輪多數決審查"},{"start":2810.509,"end":2828.405,"text":"他認為為什麼會實質的剝奪行政院院長的提名權因為他說在整體選任程序中行政院院長竟然只能夠提六分之一的通傳會委員候選人推薦權其人事決定權實質上"},{"start":2830.598,"end":2856.014,"text":"可謂業已幾乎完全遭到剝奪大法官主要在指責的是這一點那因此我們並不贊成依照政黨的比例來推選NCC的委員因為他會違反我們對於NCC他本身具有獨立專業性的要求但是"},{"start":2857.981,"end":2875.687,"text":"我們當說要去確保NCC獨立專業的要求不要跨越憲法紅線在這樣的情況之下我們就要看實際的狀況到底是什麼什麼叫做實際的狀況到底是什麼前面完全交由行政院院長提名"},{"start":2877.079,"end":2896.787,"text":"後面完全交由立法院只要過半我們現在的表決權數是只要過半的立法院同意權就可以行使當一黨完全執政一黨獨大的情況下就是行政院院長他要提什麼最後就會過什麼"},{"start":2899.161,"end":2927.015,"text":"我想在過去只要有全面執政經驗的現實上面運作的狀況跟結果就是這個樣子嘛完全沒有例外嘛那這樣子選出來的NCC委員真的符合我們在4-613號裡面以及我們在通傳會組織法裡面要有獨立性要有專業性然後得到社會的信任有嗎?"},{"start":2928.496,"end":2944.489,"text":"真的有嗎?我們現在的NCC委員他們全力的行使他們的組成他們提名到通過的過程真的取得社會對他們專業性跟獨立性的信賴嗎?沒有啊"},{"start":2945.509,"end":2968.561,"text":"我個人的潛見是沒有啦那當然這個社會上每一個公民心裡都有一把尺嘛現在的機制挑出來的NCC委員是有符合四字613號他所揭示的要有獨立性、要有專利、要有專業性真的有嗎我再說一次啊我認為沒有啊為什麼沒有"},{"start":2969.847,"end":2995.106,"text":"最明顯的例子嘛當初NCC委員會號稱專業獨立的NCC委員不是通過了那個台數科生活台還是綜合台可以搞新聞台的事情嗎怎麼隔了一個禮拜了以後蘇貞昌震怒隔了禮拜了以後NCC自己把自己的案子前面已經通過了"},{"start":2996.854,"end":3024.24,"text":"然後後來又把他給否決掉這不是政治利介入請問什麼是政治利介入哪裡來的NCC的專業性跟獨立性啊全部都是政黨的手伸到NCC裡面啊斧鑿斑斑啊所以針對有關於這一次通傳會組織法的修正我再說明一次啊台灣民眾黨並不贊成"},{"start":3026.803,"end":3048.339,"text":"按照政黨的比例來推薦人選這件事情我們並不贊成但你要100%完全維持現行的機制的話那我就邀請大家冷靜的想一想現行的機制審出來的NCC委員"},{"start":3050.478,"end":3078.719,"text":"真的有反映社會上面對於NCC專業獨立的要求嗎?我認為並沒有那也正是因為這個樣子我們才會在委員會審查的過程當中我們提出一個修正動議那這個修正動議其實我們只是善意的善意的在不同的版本當中提出一個大家各個不同黨派的委員可以為國"},{"start":3080.475,"end":3106.225,"text":"好好的冷靜思考的一個可能性要提什麼樣子的人完全交由行政院院長你要推薦什麼樣的人行政院院長可以推薦但為了要維持NCC委員的專業性以及超越黨派社會上面期待的要求讓我們認為他所推薦的人有一個審查會的組成機制"},{"start":3107.588,"end":3133.462,"text":"那裡面依照各個不同政黨他們所推薦出來的專家學者組成審查會組成審查會那最後行政院院長只要提的人真的是社會上面有輕望大家都認可這個審查會也不敢隨意否決阿因為如果隨意否決的話在政治上面要付出代價的嘛"},{"start":3134.875,"end":3152.894,"text":"你現在就有關於公事的董事就是這樣子提啦現在公事的董事雖然過程當中拖得比較長一點拖得比較長一點但問題是最後該提的該過的也都過啦"},{"start":3154.585,"end":3177.017,"text":"那這個只是一個善意的折衷啊我必須要老實講我們也不是說100%的堅持說一定要這樣子幹不可但我覺得大家如果認為對於現行NCC委員產生的方式沒有辦法取得社會多數的信賴的話那我們就要冷靜的想一想"},{"start":3178.866,"end":3205.053,"text":"還要維持現在的方式嗎還是應該要做一些改變這個是第一點所提出來意見的表達那第二點這一次有一個非常重要的修正就是要把萬年NCC委員條款廢除什麼叫做萬年NCC委員條款廢除在他任期介滿的時候沒有新的委員原來的委員可以繼續幹下去"},{"start":3206.792,"end":3233.646,"text":"那這件事情我可以先表達台灣民眾黨黨團的立場絕對反對絕對反對那為什麼絕對反對在立法例上面哪有這樣子設計的啊萬年委員制當初NCC的主委陳耀祥主委在我們司法法制委員會進行報告的時候我聽了大驚失色啊我為什麼大驚失色我唸給大家聽啊"},{"start":3235.562,"end":3245.047,"text":"這個在立法院公報113卷第37期會議記錄陳耀祥主委當初跟台灣社會跟我們的國會的報告內容是說"},{"start":3246.334,"end":3273.308,"text":"有關於本會委員任期屆滿未能順利通過新提名委員時應由原委員延任的部分應為本會組織法第四條第五項規定是參照公平交易委員會組織法第四條第四項規定所定的我那天在司法法制委員會聽到陳主委這樣講我不敢自信"},{"start":3276.291,"end":3297.405,"text":"因為這根本是假訊息啊我為什麼說這個是假訊息當初我們現在正在討論的原來的任期屆滿的時候沒有順利產生新提名委員由原委員延任的部分這個NCC組織法是在2007年12月20號修正2008年1月9號公佈"},{"start":3302.734,"end":3327.544,"text":"陳耀祥主委所在講的公平教育委員會組織法第四條第四項相同的規定是在2011年的時候修正你在2007年到08年修正的NCC組織法你先做時光機飛到三年以後去看2011年的公平教育委員會組織法會怎麼修然後所以才回過頭來"},{"start":3329.301,"end":3355.093,"text":"你要參照什麼法律你要比赴援引其他的立法例我都沒意見啦問題是你作為一個NCC的主委可以這樣時空錯置喔2007年、2008年修正的法律竟然是參考2011年的修正事實上公民交易委員會組織法2011年修正的時候他才是在他的立法理由裡面說他是參考NCC通傳會組織法"},{"start":3357.535,"end":3385.225,"text":"你怎麼會把事情反過來講呢今天你NCC主委是主委耶你不是名嘴耶名嘴在電視上面亂講亂噴不用負責啊你NCC主委在立法院可以這樣講喔那第三個那你說除了公平交易委員會那除了NCC以外那其他"},{"start":3386.624,"end":3412.938,"text":"其他具有需要國會同意權同意通過的組織體有相類似的規定嗎我們的司法院院長我們的大法官有規定說到原任期到的時候沒有選出新的大法官既有的大法官繼續延任下去嗎有這樣子的規定嗎可以這樣規定嗎這樣子的規定那你不就導致了什麼萬年"},{"start":3414.892,"end":3443.672,"text":"NCC委員的產生怎麼會有這麼離譜這麼荒謬立法上面的設計那當然十幾年前犯的錯誤現在要修該修就要修嘛該修就要修嘛那第三個部分我要說明的事情是說那大家說那立法院如果不審那該怎麼辦那這個就會牽涉到我們目前"},{"start":3445.086,"end":3466.414,"text":"所陷入的僵局所以我們目前所陷入的僵局是說舊的行政院院長他把NCC提名的名單送來了那我們事實上是很希望說新的內閣我們要強調行政院院長的人事任命權新的內閣他要談責任政治談責任政治的話"},{"start":3469.548,"end":3496.451,"text":"提名的人選我給他有決定權提了不好行政院院長要負責天經地義、天公地道我相信這個責任政治的原理大家都可以同意但現在的狀況是什麼現在的狀況是一個要卸任前的看守的內閣的院長提了名單到立法院來當然他會說這個我們希望希望就是說我們要按照法律的規定"},{"start":3497.737,"end":3524.305,"text":"任期屆滿前三個月以前要提來這麼也可以理解那當然你要講到比較深刻的就會有政權交接的問題在政權交接的那個過渡時期的時候原來出來的提名名單是不是有經過新的總統、新的院長他們的認可、他們的點頭那這個政權交接條例的部分在我目前立法上面還是處於空白的狀態但問題是說"},{"start":3528.168,"end":3557.267,"text":"那藉由在實務上面實際的實踐我們如果確保說今天陳建仁送來的這四個都是新的政府他們點頭的那站在台灣民眾黨的立場我可以清楚的表白我們贊成實質審查四個全部都進來審我們贊成實質審查但我後來看了卓榮泰在立法院院會裡面"},{"start":3559.81,"end":3586.793,"text":"在接受總質詢的時候他的表態我看了就很擔心我為什麼看了很擔心因為中國國民黨黨團的代表洪孟楷委員上去質詢的時候那因為今天孟楷兄也有在現場如果我有轉述錯誤的話等一下再請您更正因為洪孟楷那個時候就問卓榮泰說那那個"},{"start":3589.344,"end":3616.486,"text":"陳建仁他所提的四名NCC委員那你知不知道你同不同意結果卓榮泰的回答是陳院長有他作業的時程跟委員報告我們當然沒有討論過這個名單那代表的是什麼這個名單他完全不他不僅沒參與還完全不知道洪孟楷又繼續追問那你屬意的名單什麼時候會出來"},{"start":3618.918,"end":3641.718,"text":"卓榮泰說:「今天跟大院完成施政報告後,我想我的工作會比較少一點,所以我會去好好的看這個名單。」卓榮泰說:「他之前不了解,今天來報告沒空,今天報告完了以後可能會有空要來看這個名單。」然後洪孟楷問他說:「下禮拜會出來嗎?」"},{"start":3643.181,"end":3668.371,"text":"我會去開始認真的檢視名單在最短的時間內讓委員看到這個是我們行政院院長卓榮泰在立法院總質詢的時候他所做出來的承諾那我不知道他後來是讓哪些委員看到那不過身為立法委員當中其中的一名我必須要老實跟大家報告我是沒看到我到目前為止沒看到"},{"start":3668.973,"end":3685.551,"text":"那我不知道孟楷兄是不是有看到因為我看完了這個詢答的內容除非後面發生了什麼事情是我有漏掉的資訊從這個詢答的內容清楚的展現出一個態度什麼態度就是"},{"start":3687.038,"end":3706.686,"text":"陳建仁所提的這四個NCC委員新的政府是沒有參與沒有語文甚至不知道後來看了名單才知道的我們現在當然沒看到我們也在等卓榮泰院長提出新名單好那我現在的問題就來啦那你從責任政治的角度上面來講那這四個人是誰要負責卓榮泰認不認"},{"start":3714.568,"end":3740.174,"text":"那你最起碼新的行政院院長跟大家講這四個名單新內閣、新的行政院院長我們同意我們背書那如果左輪派做這樣的表示台灣民眾黨黨團絕對支持現在這四個人進入實質審查因為新的行政院院長、新的內閣就背書了嘛"},{"start":3741.124,"end":3768.675,"text":"那既然他們要背書我們在4至613號所討論剛剛不斷強調的行政院院長的人事提名權行政院院長基於行政一體行政院院長基於責任政治要負責那讓我們清楚的知道那個行政院院長叫卓龍泰嘛那否則的話我們接下去繼續審查會很荒謬啊繼續審查了以後到時候人選被爆出了什麼醜聞什麼弊案"},{"start":3772.719,"end":3796.585,"text":"什麼樣子不當的往來然後審查會在立法院裡面被封殺那請問這個責任政治的原理的這個責任是誰要扛難不成要去追陳建仁嗎人家都已經卸任了也回歸學術界了這樣不公平嘛那所以現在提名的這四個人行政院到底認不認"},{"start":3798.578,"end":3815.619,"text":"我覺得跟我們現在組織法的修訂有非常大的關係我是希望藉由剛好這個機會公開的會議正式的會議向我們的行政院院長卓榮泰喊話卓榮泰你告訴你在行政院"},{"start":3817.32,"end":3832.646,"text":"來歷法院備詢的時候跟全體國人講說你要去檢視名單最短的時間讓委員看到我們到目前為止全部沒看到啊那這四個人你到底是OK不OK那這件事情如果不釐清的話我們今天在這邊討論行政議題在這邊討論責任政治豈不很可笑嗎"},{"start":3839.056,"end":3864.783,"text":"那如果說卓榮泰說這四個不是我提的人喔我沒有要背書我也沒有要扛行政責任那也拜託行政院院長卓榮泰清楚的表明那這個時候我覺得我們立法院該做的事情落實責任政治就我們把名單退回去給行政院讓我們新的行政院院長基於責任政治他有重新提名四位"},{"start":3865.816,"end":3871.104,"text":"的空間跟可能性以上針對今天所協商的主題表達意見 謝謝"},{"start":3877.459,"end":3903.013,"text":"感謝周委來安排這個協商我比較簡單的快速把這幾個意見表達其實我們現在討論的是第四條第四條如同剛剛我們一而再再三來兩位委員的發言其實大家也都知道說憲法613這個解釋是字號其實就是大家都已經有研讀過所以說也不需要在那邊搬門弄斧或者是說抖"},{"start":3903.513,"end":3930.35,"text":"包袱來去針對613的這個解釋而是我們很實際的來看說到底現在有沒有這個條文可修正之處確實有嗎因為現在確實經歷NCC組織法到現在已經快20年左右的時間確實有跟現實狀況有摯愛難解或說真的有影響必須要修正之處嗎簡單來講第四條裡面有三大重點"},{"start":3931.67,"end":3948.705,"text":"第一 到底NCC的委員任期能不能持續連任 變成萬年NCC委員這第一個部分 也是我們眾多委員版本裡面有修正到的部分第二 NCC委員組成的名單到底為何 組成的方式為何"},{"start":3949.446,"end":3978.626,"text":"就是由現在行政院長提名行政院長就送出來到立法院立法院做審查或者是說像我們幾位委員有提出來的版本是經由審查會並沒有直接去針對NCC委員的名單來去做這個挑選而是經由政黨比例所組成的審查會行政院提出來之後經由審查會先做初步的一個審視之後再送來立法院"},{"start":3979.697,"end":3986.466,"text":"這是第二個部分這某種程度上也是完整這個名單的公正性、專業度以及獨立性嘛"},{"start":3987.937,"end":4015.68,"text":"過去到現在NCC委員被人家詬病的尤其是這四年的時間針對每一個案件有不同的一個狀況的才是針對每一個申請有不同的狀況的才是甚至還講出說如果說NCC委員沒有在三個月內補滿的話iPhone都買不到這種話都可以講得出來的時候真的是笑掉國人的大牙總統派院長都已經在行政院都在立法院質詢台上打臉了"},{"start":4017.602,"end":4034.332,"text":"所以我拉回來第三點第四條裡面還強調一個什麼就是強調說我們如果說時間到了委員沒有真的來替補的話那怎麼辦現在的條文規定的是就是委員持續的來做下去"},{"start":4035.688,"end":4052.757,"text":"陳耀祥主委也在之前答詢的時候就已經講了他731他的任期到了之後他就會回歸學術界嘛你就不會留嘛所以換言之你的行為我想這也是現在行政官員跟我們現在的這個組織法規定所有"},{"start":4054.278,"end":4070.424,"text":"不同之處嘛組織法規定是說如果說你人權還沒有到的時候你是要持續喔但是陳耀強主委就說到了他就是要離開囉所以陳耀強主委如果假設在現在尤其剛剛黃國昌委員也特別提到我5月31號的這個質詢"},{"start":4073.578,"end":4098.401,"text":"五月三十號的這個質詢我特別請教卓榮泰院長沒有錯我就說陳建仁前院長在他離開之前他把匆匆的把四個名單提出來但是五月二十號之後他就已經卸任了那五月二十號之後我們也認為說新任的卓榮泰院長你應該要針對這個名單來瞭解啊結果卓榮泰院長講是說他不知情之前這四位名單的時候他根本不知道而"},{"start":4099.162,"end":4126.176,"text":"卓龍泰院長親口在總質詢的備詢台上講是說最短時間內提出新名單是5月31號卓龍泰院長親口講最短時間內提出新名單因為他在這10天從5月20到5月31這10天內看了很多重要場域跟準備施政報告沒有深入NCC委員提名名單所以承諾最短時間內一定會圓滿著的解決以行政院的立場來檢視名單"},{"start":4128.652,"end":4155.26,"text":"所以我們到現在又兩個禮拜的時間過去了5月31到現在6月14兩個禮拜了我們還是沒有看到所謂的新名單所謂卓榮泰院長想要提出的名單所以這三個部分才是我們認為應該來討論的地方那既然如此我們現在有看到有民眾黨的版本有國民黨各委員的版本那民進黨委員沒有版本"},{"start":4156.195,"end":4182.654,"text":"所以我覺得今天既然我們要逐條都已經進入到實質的審查我覺得是不是就針對這三大方向我們各自表達自己的主張意見第一能夠接受萬年NCC委員嗎?如果不能接受的話是不是在本席的版本裡面我的版本就有提到以及我們幾位委員的版本都有提到就是任滿得連任一次這很具體吧"},{"start":4183.615,"end":4198.03,"text":"我覺得等一下大家就是應該要針對這個部分逐條審查的時候我們就要表態啊你是認為你NCC的委員連任可以無限期連任依照現行的NCC組織法不修改無限期連任還是認為說NCC委員連任一次"},{"start":4199.394,"end":4200.715,"text":"審查委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":4218.743,"end":4238.353,"text":"但是盡可能的來提出一個共識那我們也在之前已經就討論過就在之前也跟法學專家學者也都討論過現行的狀況是不會違反613的釋制的所以不會有違憲的問題以及第三任期到了委員任期到了沒有替補人選怎麼辦"},{"start":4239.861,"end":4269.424,"text":"我們有幾位委員的修正版本也都已經有提到了如果說任期到未能通過立法院同意的話原任委員任期應終止不得延任也非常具體啊那我也拜託我們黨團大家能夠表個態啊你是認為說如果行政院長沒有提出一個好的名單或說立法院提出名單之後立法院沒有辦法在期限前能夠同意的話那原有的委員還可以持續喔"},{"start":4270.39,"end":4287.327,"text":"那這樣子就真的就是萬年NCC委員了我們不需要放水嘛我們立法院的審查也不需要配合行政院嘛我們不要有這種時間的壓力而造成說我們必須要倉促草率、便宜行事嘛所以第四條123"},{"start":4290.677,"end":4319.207,"text":"能不能連任、連任幾次以及產生委員的方式是否用審查會還有是不是任期到了之後如果真的沒有補齊人的話應該不得延續下去我覺得這三點也拜託我們大家能夠取得一個能夠更聚焦我想這才符合我們現在逐條審查的精神跟作為那本席我剛提出來的我的意見就是我認為NCC委員連任得一次違憲"},{"start":4321.035,"end":4324.947,"text":"應該要有審查會的制度來確保我們能夠提出公正、專業、獨立的委員"},{"start":4327.745,"end":4353.865,"text":"以及第三如果說真的至愛難行行政院沒有提出好的名單出來立法院不應該有時間限制而造成說我們一定必須便宜形式的一個審查委員所以第三個部分即便委員任期到了之後他的任期也就終止那NCC的業務也不會因為少一兩位委員日常業務不作為因為畢竟NCC還是有公務同仁嘛"},{"start":4354.545,"end":4368.295,"text":"我們有這些處的行政人員都可以來持續進行相關業務所以說也不會造成我們NCC停擺的狀況以上謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請鍾嘉賓召委謝謝剛剛請聽的前面三位委員的高見"},{"start":4375.424,"end":4396.61,"text":"那在這裡仍然 可惜黃委員要離開了不然我仍然是要提出4至613號我沒有離開 我外面講的事情我不曉得還是要從613號來談是這樣分三個部分第一個部分 到底4至613號所提到的原來當時被宣告違憲的NCC組織法"},{"start":4399.031,"end":4420.974,"text":"條文內容是哪個部分抵觸憲法規定而違憲的?」這個地方要首先來釐清啦那也是一樣趙立很可惜的我們委員有在闡述四字號的時候還是闡前面那一半後面那一半呢我們來看一看四字他這裡面所提到的這裡所說的"},{"start":4422.524,"end":4432.149,"text":"關於委員任滿提名及出缺提名之規定實質上幾乎完全剝奪行政院之人事決定權將剝奪行政院之人事決定權實質上已轉由立法院各政黨團"},{"start":4442.094,"end":4455.807,"text":"與由各政黨團一齊在立法院所佔席次比例推薦組成之審查委員會共同行使以影響人民對於通傳會應超越政治之公正信賴違背了通傳會之設計為獨立機關的建制目的OK 這裡面談到兩個部分"},{"start":4460.612,"end":4471.522,"text":"一個就是一個提名的審查委員會這個審查委員會在當時它是由政黨依立法院所佔之席次比例有11位"},{"start":4472.881,"end":4497.386,"text":"那這個審查委員會他原來的條文我們現在標的上我先講原來的條文就是當年的條文被宣告委員的條文是有18名的委員15名是由政黨依照所佔席次比例來推薦3名留給行政院院長那這當然行政院長的提名就稀釋到成六分之一這當然是大法官認為所不宜的"},{"start":4498.166,"end":4499.167,"text":"併案審查委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":4513.682,"end":4534.756,"text":"審查委員會就決定了這18名提名者大法官在裡面有兩個部分一個是認為這個審查委員會按政黨比例這是剝奪了行政院的人事任命權另外因為他在第一次任命的時候是任命全額但是在缺額的部分"},{"start":4535.598,"end":4558.108,"text":"到底要由政黨依什麼樣的比例來推薦行政院長會提名認滿在提名以及缺額提名的時候這裡面實質上似乎已經沒有行政院長提名的空間就這兩個部分來駕以深論那重要的是他講到這是一個獨立機關那我們要先分析到底大法官是認為有一個"},{"start":4559.352,"end":4581.168,"text":"外依政黨比例形成的提名審查委員會是否跟獨立機關的本質上有所為務獨立機關顧名思義就應該是超越政黨以上來獨立行使職權那我們目前獨立機關有三個一個是中選會"},{"start":4582.543,"end":4597.52,"text":"一個是公平教育委員會一個就是NCC中選會自不代言他是要來主持國家的各種大小選舉所以當然他必須獨立行使之權更不能可能由政黨一比例來提名"},{"start":4598.291,"end":4624.452,"text":"那過去的違憲條款他設了一個審查委員會是依政黨比例這樣的本質上就完全違反了獨立機關應具備的程序條件當然我們看到現在因為我不曉得今天討論的民眾黨團版因為上面沒有寫民眾黨團版對不起我沒有看到我只看到傅昆奇委員版先就傅昆奇委員版他今天做了一個技術性的轉移"},{"start":4625.441,"end":4635.688,"text":"他說他仍然要成立一個提名審查委員會那同樣的是由11名這個學者專家來組成那麼"},{"start":4636.724,"end":4656.119,"text":"而他是依照政黨在立法院的比例來推薦組成的但是他組成之後他最後說最後他所審酌通過的名單是由行政院長因參酌審查委員會審查結果提出名單來送請立法院同意"},{"start":4657.597,"end":4677.602,"text":"似乎新的版本這是第二點要深論的了新的版本仍然保留有原來違憲條款當中要依正當比例來組成一個審查委員會只是他將這個審查委員會在處理提名名單的時候他是處理完了交給行政院長他上面寫參佐審查委員會審查結果提出之名單"},{"start":4687.318,"end":4711.281,"text":"意思好像說這個審查委員會依照政黨比例所成立的審查委員會審查的同意的名單由行政院長交由立法院來行使同意權那大家想想看前面這個11席的審查委員會完完全全是依照立法院的政黨比例來形成"},{"start":4712.642,"end":4735.37,"text":"那他同意的名單再交給行政院長再送給立法院來進行同意權的行使大家可想而知行政院長在這當中有什麼不審酌的餘地嗎有什麼不審酌的餘地嗎難道提出這個版本的政黨真的認為當年4-6143號我們大法官所指責的"},{"start":4739.127,"end":4767.177,"text":"NCC作為獨立機關他的審查委員會這個機制竟然是由立法院依正常比例來形成的審查委員會當年的原條文是審查委員會審查的名單才能送來由立法院來同意現在呢新的版本2020年的版本他轉個彎審查委員會同意的審查過的版本名單交給行政院長參酌再送給立法院來審查"},{"start":4769.276,"end":4796.394,"text":"難道這樣會導致出同樣不違憲的結果嗎所以我們覺得當年要挑戰613、4-613的這樣的一個原條文修正條文被宣告違憲而作廢今天捲土重來只是把審查委員會跟立法院審同意權的行使當中卡一個行政院長的餐著"},{"start":4797.85,"end":4823.238,"text":"所以我是覺得我們對於大法官釋字的解釋千萬不能只讀一半尤其不能只讀前半段後半段他講到了他是一個獨立機關正因為是獨立機關我想第三個部分了他跟公共電視就不同了公視委員會他的確是由立法院來組成一政黨比例的提名的一個審查委員會但是公共電視是獨立機關嗎"},{"start":4825.694,"end":4852.472,"text":"公共電視是個財團法人他的董事是由立法院的一個審查委員會來行使同意權的這個審查委員會對一個財團法人、公共電視董事會是一個公共電視的一個經營者這跟中選會、公平會、NCC是獨立機關代表國家公權力行使公權力的地位是不可同日而語的"},{"start":4853.635,"end":4872.588,"text":"所以大法官不會去管理公共電視在立法院依照政黨比例而形成的提名委員會或者是審查委員會來組成他不會去管理這個他會來關心你作為三個獨立機關之一的NCC你怎麼可以把他的"},{"start":4873.368,"end":4883.636,"text":"提名名單先交給一個由正常比例組成的審查委員會來經過審查同意後才交給行政院長再回給立法院來行使同意權錯的事情不因為你拐個彎就會變成對"},{"start":4890.034,"end":4916.609,"text":"所以我們在這裡還是要奉勸還持有這樣觀念的在野黨如果真的對NCC有不同意見在審查會我們倒是可以看一看有幾個版本可以參考第四個部分我們今天看到的禁風二讀委員提案當中有賴世保委員的提案他就在這裡寫他把做了零選具他加了零選加了公正人士加了這幾個字樣"},{"start":4919.783,"end":4946.272,"text":"李燕秀委員的版本,抱歉因為他底下沒有畫黑線我仔細去看還沒有找出他到底跟原條文、線型條文有哪些修正的意見但是我覺得至少看起來賴思寶委員的修正提案事實上跟現在符合並沒有抵觸憲法的線型條文是有修正的空間餘地可以加以考量"},{"start":4947.25,"end":4975.017,"text":"那最後呢因為剛剛的委員有提到啊所謂的萬年條款的確在時序上呢2007年是先有NCC的組織法在2011年有公平會的組織法這裡面都有共同同樣的條文他的就是刪除第五項而已啊刪除第五項啊我看到李燕修委員的刪除第五項就是所謂的萬年條款啊那我們來看一看到底為什麼公平會"},{"start":4976.961,"end":4982.161,"text":"獨立機關需要有這樣一個上面所寫的就是被刪除的第四項"},{"start":4984.741,"end":4998.489,"text":"本會委員任期屆滿未能依前項規定提任時,原任委員之任期得延至新任委員就職前一日止,不受第一項任期之限制。"},{"start":5007.174,"end":5029.619,"text":"說是萬年條款本席於心有戚戚焉因為我覺得這個很眼熟我也可以理解它為什麼叫萬年條款大家可以看到中華民國憲法本文的第28條國民大會代表每六年改選一次每屆國民大會代表自任期至次屆國民大會開會之日為止"},{"start":5030.609,"end":5039.454,"text":"沒有錯,如果大家年輕的時候去反對過萬年國會這就是當時國民大會的萬年條款因為中華民國的第一屆國民大會"},{"start":5040.666,"end":5063.967,"text":"任期六年要改選但是始終法改選所以下一屆一直不能產生因此也是經過同樣的程序所以就有第一屆的增額每次選來選去都是第一屆因為第二屆選不出來所以第一屆的任期就不斷的不斷的要等到第二屆國民大會開會之日為止大家知道第二屆什麼時候開始嗎1992年"},{"start":5067.531,"end":5090.026,"text":"1992年終於在台灣全部選出了全體的國民大會代表所以第一屆國民代表才可以落幕包括真兒的改由第二屆的國民大會那大家一定好奇啦當時這部神聖的中華民國憲法的制憲者為什麼去制定一個這樣明顯的抵觸民主政治契約公平契約明定原則"},{"start":5091.172,"end":5094.775,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":5102.421,"end":5121.721,"text":"那這裡面大家有興趣可以看一看這是憲政的考古題為什麼當年大法官要這樣子讓萬年國會得以延任我個人當然反對這樣的一個說法但是為什麼公平會跟NCC都必須具有這樣的一個到下一屆"},{"start":5122.722,"end":5146.196,"text":"任期產生的委員出現,他的前一任才任滿是有什麼樣的原因比一個國民大會的神聖的政權延續還重要必須讓他們能夠有這樣的具備因為顯然李英雄委員的版本他刪除了這個條款相信李委員一定有很好的理由來告訴我們為什麼NCC跟公平會不需要這樣所謂的萬年條款"},{"start":5148.177,"end":5159.147,"text":"一個NCC跟公民會有什麼重要的國家行政在獨立機關必須行使的職權不得中斷的情況之下竟膽敢、斗膽援引當年萬年國會讓國民大會萬年不用改選的條款來作為延續而斗膽的"},{"start":5166.814,"end":5185.762,"text":"這2008年、2007年跟2011年的立法院也竟然斗膽的通過了這樣的萬年條款我們真的非常的好奇願聞其詳也希望提案委員跟我們在座的行政機關列席代表獨立機關的列席代表可以提供一些讓我們來了解一下以上好 謝謝那李委員好 先是昭偉我想談到獨立機關"},{"start":5197.369,"end":5214.372,"text":"我們在處理通傳法的時候我覺得很多的時空還有很多的背景我覺得我們要去思考那獨立機關當時在設計上跟一般行政機關最大的不同是在人事上它必須是獨立的這是獨立機關當時設計的目的那我們今天在討論獨立機關的人事同意權的同時我們也必須思考它必須是專業化跟去政治化它也必須思考"},{"start":5225.174,"end":5245.399,"text":"社會多元的價值在裡頭所以也就是說在人事上的處理在運作上它必須要減少上級機關的干預這是我們在整體人事制度上的設計那剛剛大家一直在提到613的4字號的解釋那我就要把它念一次行政院院長更迭的時候獨立機關事實上是會享有任期的保障"},{"start":5251.04,"end":5278.77,"text":"並不會因為我們現在產生新的行政院長所以獨立機關的任期這些委員任期他就不需要跟著行政院長同進退也就是說他的任期是受到四年我們一蓋下去他人事同意權事實上他是受到四年的保障的但是反過來說四年任期到的時候他自然就不受到任何人事保障跟任命的基礎"},{"start":5280.19,"end":5299.743,"text":"這是我們在蓋人事同意權的時候我們就賦予他四年四年之後我們是不是要持續的保障他這個就是今天我在處理第四條的時候我的想法我覺得當他不具有任命同意權的基礎他自然卸任不能因為任何的因素而擅自延長他的任期"},{"start":5301.804,"end":5316.461,"text":"所以同意權送進來立法院的時候如果立法院沒有辦法同意的時候行政院就要去思考他要不要去調整他的名單這個就是他不能因為立法院"},{"start":5316.821,"end":5337.875,"text":"不同意任命,現任委員不斷延任而逃避應有的監督這在第四條當中我的意見第五條當中我也順便說明一下現在目前行政院長提名的指定人選裡面他同時就有包含主委跟副主委的職務"},{"start":5339.136,"end":5360.843,"text":"所以當屆期認滿的時候提前辭職的時候我個人認為因為獨立機關它是一個合一的機關它也是一個獨立的機關所以我們更應該比照中選會選出由委員互相推認選出自己的主委跟副主委以上是我在第四條跟第五條的意見 謝謝"},{"start":5365.333,"end":5388.371,"text":"請吳思瑤委員發言謝謝主席我想這個條文在審查會的時候也多次的來論述提出我的意見那很多雷同的論述我就不再贅述我就講精要的重點第一個NCC既然作為獨立機關它獨立運作的獨立性是非常重要的所以不應當受到政治的干預"},{"start":5389.532,"end":5404.274,"text":"所以捍衛NCC一個獨立機關它的獨立性第二個NCC所掌理的事務是涉專業所以應當由專業的人士來出任所以要避免讓政治來干預專業"},{"start":5405.996,"end":5423.199,"text":"所以基於獨立性跟專業性我們都應當來維持現行的條文而不應該回到過去被613號大法官解釋已經推翻失效的法律讓他再借屍還魂再來死灰復燃"},{"start":5424.2,"end":5453.042,"text":"第二面向講到憲法所規範的人事的權利人事的任命權是行政權的核心所以說行政權來任命人事立法院能夠行使的依憲法所賦予的職責是同意權所以在憲法的精神下如果今天的條文修了那一樣又回到過去被大法官打臉的期期以為不可的"},{"start":5453.542,"end":5472.701,"text":"用立法院的立法權、人事同意權來強害、傷害甚至取代了行政院的人事任命權所以這兩個主張我想這是非常清楚我們要對社會論述也要向在野黨的委員再一次來懇請你們三思"},{"start":5473.602,"end":5498.808,"text":"那講到這個黃國昌委員民眾黨的版本就是拐了一個彎嘛換湯不換藥嘛他用審查會的機制用政黨比例透過審查會其實公事的組成跟NCC的獨立機構的運作完全不同公事的組成他強調的是一個多元是一個包容是一個平衡"},{"start":5500.441,"end":5518.936,"text":"所以說在公示他是用政黨比例組成審查會的這個運作的原始的制度設計跟NCC作為獨立機關相當具有專業性的行使職權這是大不相同所以不能夠拿來滴溝、倒菜兜、隨便來這裡東拼西湊來強害了NCC原本的人士"},{"start":5525.622,"end":5529.673,"text":"的組成專業委員的一個任命那如果要講到"},{"start":5531.109,"end":5556.114,"text":"公共電視的惡果是什麼?」我想大家去Google一下也都知道過去公共電視長期陷入一個透過立法院政黨比例任命組成的審查會來行使公視的董事的這些任命的相關作為所以第四屆、第五屆、第七屆延宕了多久Google一下都知道"},{"start":5557.314,"end":5584.067,"text":"最距離現在最近的第七屆是延宕了957天我過去在教育文化委員會我監督的主要部門就是文化部所有的立法委員不分朝野永遠想要去排除想要去解決公共電視的董事受限於一個政黨比例的委員會的組成而遲遲沒有辦法完成董事會的改組"},{"start":5585.247,"end":5606.757,"text":"導致公示在第七屆他的董事的產生延宕了957天第五屆還好延宕了58天第四屆同樣也延宕了965天這都是過去的印證、明證來告訴我們NCC可以再這樣被搞下去嗎"},{"start":5608.058,"end":5633.179,"text":"所以歷史的經驗告訴我們現在修法就要慎思就要深思剛剛講到萬年條款萬年條款只要講一件事情要維持NCC的routine穩定的運作我們當然希望立法院能夠依法定的時程去完成人事同意權的行使就不會有要延任續任的問題"},{"start":5634.915,"end":5660.218,"text":"我們希望是這個前提,何況這一次的國會擴權法案也看到在野黨的委員對於人事同意權設下了你們認為更嚴謹的行使程序所以說為了讓NCC不會因此而停擺因為沒有辦法完成人事的同意權而造成又沒有新的委員可以又沒有舊的委員可以來繼續hold住整個如常的運作"},{"start":5661.502,"end":5685.45,"text":"所以這個萬年條款真的也是要請提案的委員好好的深思所以基於這些理由我也多次論述但是在黨團協商我們還是要負起職責所以我再一次就幾個面向那就交於大家那我個人還是認為大家依現行的條文是足以讓我們讓NCC的運作穩健、專業、獨立好 這是我的主張 謝謝"},{"start":5686.735,"end":5697.176,"text":"好 因為剛剛那個翁委員有舉手嘛是 那就麻煩翁委員那中委員等一下也要講嘛好 那那個就你講完好 來 翁委員"},{"start":5700.437,"end":5720.304,"text":"今天針對NCC組織法第四條提出修正我想最主要的原因也是我們看到從NCC成立之後到現在這麼多年來大家一直會針對NCC的獨立性提出質疑"},{"start":5721.304,"end":5737.31,"text":"尤其這些年歷經了幾個重大的案件大家更是對NCC委員的獨立性還有他的專業性有了高度的質疑NCC越來越不像是獨立機關而是像是一個政治的打手"},{"start":5739.15,"end":5753.116,"text":"這也是現在在野黨還有很多委員們所關心的而且要提出來修正NCC組織法的最重要的理由當大家講到613號解釋我必須再回到當時為什麼會有613號解釋的那個時代背景"},{"start":5759.798,"end":5781.108,"text":"大家不要忘記了NCC的組織法是在2005年的時候通過的那從NCC成立之後其實從一開始的這個成立其實就受到當時民進黨政府這個行政院的打壓那時候的院長是謝長廷那麼當時的這個NCC組織法"},{"start":5789.458,"end":5791.245,"text":"他的組成的規定"},{"start":5793.268,"end":5821.048,"text":"經過很複雜的一個程序希望能夠達到嚴謹然後不斷的去嚴格的審查能夠領選到最優秀、最客觀、最獨立專業的NCC的委員可是在這個委員審查的過程當中其實那時候行政院就不斷的反彈抗議而且在很多方面其實都"},{"start":5822.244,"end":5824.186,"text":"相關的審查程序 等到NCC正式組成之後又透過種種的Bager他們的預算等等這些手段來讓當時的NCC第一屆NCC委員會很難以運作"},{"start":5839.421,"end":5861.697,"text":"這都是我們回顧到當時的時代背景那麼以現在的角度來看其實當時NCC第一版的那個組織法看起來是最能夠達成讓NCC這個機關成員獨立而且能夠反映出一個政治多元化的一個法案"},{"start":5862.838,"end":5882.694,"text":"可惜613號解釋當時大法官也是民進黨政府所提名的大法官們宣告了第一版的NCC組織法違憲613號解釋事實上也被許多的公法學者所批評這樣子的一個"},{"start":5884.11,"end":5902.514,"text":"大法官解釋他是不是真的能夠之後能夠讓一個獨立機關真正的做到獨立那麼從責任一體的原則其實大家就有很多的討論那麼到包含將所有的提名權都交給行政院院長確實從"},{"start":5907.796,"end":5933.249,"text":"經過2006年613號解釋以來到現在在十幾年過去了我們也可以看到這個613號解釋之後對於幫助NCC成為獨立機關是毫無注意反而更證實了當時很多的憲法學者所提出來的一個問題就是當行政院它擁有了全部的提名權之後"},{"start":5935.051,"end":5962.841,"text":"就有可能讓整個NCC委員會沒有辦法獨立以現在台灣的這個政治生態來說除非說委員本身他人格很獨立他對於他的職務本身他有高度的信念知道什麼樣能夠做到能夠排除自己的個人的政治信仰而不會將個人過多的一個政治的一個部分"},{"start":5963.721,"end":5982.823,"text":"去代入到案子的審查但是就如同許多公法學者所預見的、所預測的我們看到其實現在的NCC確實是無法再維持它的獨立性跟它的專業性"},{"start":5984.52,"end":5993.305,"text":"那麼回到我們剛剛講的就是我們既然現在要提出NCC組織法第四條修正我們的目的當然是希望能夠重建獨立機關我們希望能夠讓NCC真正能夠往獨立機關的方向"},{"start":6000.229,"end":6018.925,"text":"更邁進一步,那麼獨立機關他當然還有幾個要件包含機關本身是不是獨立,他是不是還是要受到行政議題員等的拘束那他的人員是不是夠獨立,他財務是不是都夠獨立,這必須要有好幾個步驟去檢驗不過很可惜在我們現行的制度底下看起來"},{"start":6020.066,"end":6030.598,"text":"NCC似乎就沒有辦法達成我們剛剛上面講的這幾個重要的條件那在這次大家幾個委員所提出來的版本裡面"},{"start":6032.062,"end":6060.436,"text":"大概就以我的版本是跟其他委員是很不相同的那麼因為我們也看到讓行政院院長獨卵提名權的情況之下確實是無助於讓NCC變得更獨立所以在其他西方國家基本上會讓這個獨立機關的人事權透過一個分享提名權或是我們講共享提名權的方式去運作不管是在韓國"},{"start":6062.977,"end":6085.214,"text":"法國、德國的通訊傳播委員會這樣的一個組織模式都是採取由行政體系他們內閣或是行政院然後以及讓國會來共享提名權那麼這個是我提出這個法案的最重要的一個"},{"start":6086.094,"end":6112.37,"text":"想法就是讓整個NCC委員的提名權由立院跟行政院來一起共享、分享這樣的一個提名權那這更能夠反映出民主政治就是政黨政治而且它是一個多元的政治它可以透過這樣的模式讓NCC的組成、它的成員更多元化能夠讓大家不同的意見都能夠在NCC的這個機關裡面進行表達"},{"start":6116.407,"end":6122.412,"text":"當然也有其他委員提出採取公式版公式"},{"start":6123.991,"end":6126.912,"text":"條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":6150.578,"end":6165.112,"text":"公式性質與NCC的性質是不是差距有這麼大?理念來講,它應該都是要遠離國家的管制,它是不受到行政一體原則的拘束的"},{"start":6168.817,"end":6182.897,"text":"可是在現在公式的模式他採取兩階段又先成立審查委員會然後再進行相關的候選人的提名再進行審查坦白說他這個程序是蠻冗長的"},{"start":6184.699,"end":6209.117,"text":"那麼就我個人來講我覺得看過過去幾次公視在選董建市的這個情況之下作業程序非常的漫長而且常常還有可能會造成董事選不出來這個裡面的爭議非常之多我認為這個也不見得是一個最好的方式不過如果說相形之下的話總比現在整個的"},{"start":6212.699,"end":6217.399,"text":"NCC委員提名權由行政院院長一個人把持要來得好"},{"start":6218.919,"end":6246.478,"text":"那再說就是我們剛剛講的要廢除萬年委員的這個制度這個是我們這次在幾個版本裡面大家都有共識的NCC委員原則上就是連任就是只能連任一次並不得再連任那麼同時讓已經屆期要卸任的委員就離開了不需要再等待新委員補上之後到他們才離職"},{"start":6248.942,"end":6251.267,"text":"廢除現任委員的延任規定"},{"start":6258.963,"end":6277.297,"text":"此外本席的版本是認為NCC的委員人數是可以再縮減也不需要到現在7人NCC現在已經有兩個重要的業務已經移轉到數位部了數位發展部"},{"start":6279.418,"end":6308.638,"text":"整個NCC委員的組織人力的調整以及他的執行相關的業務其實五人的規模就差不多好像美國的FCC它也只是有五位的委員那麼韓國它的廣電的事業也非常市場很大那也是只有五人所以其實這就可以再討論是不是需要有七位NCC委員這五位其實我個人認為也就足夠了"},{"start":6310.445,"end":6328.017,"text":"接下來就是交錯任期制的部分其實這個交錯任期制是不是真的有助於讓NCC成員這個更為獨立或者是可以讓整個業務交接更為順利這個並沒有一定像我們現在看到這麼多的部會其實並沒有說是一定非得要這個經濟要等到首長新首長"},{"start":6336.983,"end":6358.558,"text":"上任之後原來的首長才能卸任也沒有這樣的規定所以交錯任期制是否要廢除我認為這個部分的話是很值得去思考而且可以朝向這方面去做所以本人這邊所提出來的修正規定也認為應該可以廢除交錯任期制這並無礙於整個NCC業務的推動"},{"start":6365.956,"end":6384.591,"text":"總之就是我們這次希望透過修正NCC組織法第四條的規定能夠讓更多元的意見進入到NCC而不是由行政院完全單一的政黨力量"},{"start":6385.211,"end":6391.754,"text":"完全掌控NCC的人事案。」我們要知道民主政治它就是多元的政治同時它也是政黨政治能夠讓不同的政治、政見、政黨的力量、意見能夠反映"},{"start":6401.338,"end":6404.74,"text":"在NCC的組織委員會裡面我覺得其實會比我們講唱高調說NCC要排除政治力量結果它排除了其他的各個不同政治社會團體的意見全部都是以執政黨的意見為意見那麼完全成為執政黨政府的打手工具其實"},{"start":6431.689,"end":6458.418,"text":"這個文並無助於讓NCC會變得更好所以這次這幾個版本裡面至少剛剛大家看起來也有一些共識就是廢除連任制度這個部分大家應該是沒有什麼意見都會支持的還有廢除現任委員的延任規定這是也有共識的那麼至於在整個提名審查的部分我覺得還可以"},{"start":6459.011,"end":6479.55,"text":"在多討論,可能以本席所提出來的這種人員提名的分享概念的這種提名分享權或許也是一個比較進步而且看其他國家運作到目前為止也都是一個很不錯的一個方式這以上希望大家可以做參考"},{"start":6484.886,"end":6487.47,"text":"謝謝張偉還有我們在場的協商各黨的代表"},{"start":6490.919,"end":6513.293,"text":"成都委員的講法以後我也其實尊重但是我第一個要先提出來就是說我們整個組織法裡面第四條 不好意思 總統委員跟你說一聲對不起 因為那個陳主委他要離開了那是不是給陳委員幾分鐘讓他先說一下因為他現在另有要事要轉"},{"start":6518.274,"end":6544.289,"text":"主席、各位委員不好意思因為等一下還有總質詢要去院會這邊那關於剛才各位委員所指教的這個部分那個613號解釋我想委員都講了非常多這個部分我就是不再贅述不過我們這個地方可能有一個部分要跟所有委員報告一下關於那個延任制度的這個問題延任制度基本上它不是一個萬年條款它基本上是一個過渡條款"},{"start":6545.109,"end":6557.859,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":6571.01,"end":6597.472,"text":"那這個部分來講的話當時的國會其實也是這個當時國民黨是居多數當時透過政黨協商所出來的那為什麼會有這個所謂過度條款就是避免我們的機關的運作會陷入所謂的癱瘓的問題那跟各位委員報告一下本會是合議制機關我們合議制機關裡面來講的話七個委員裡面來講的話你至少有過半出席才有辦法組成委員會"},{"start":6598.453,"end":6616.726,"text":"那時候我們的運作報告重大的事項其實跟委員除了我們的每一週的委員會以外我們很多的案件比如說以去年112年來講的話我們還有所謂的分組審查還有一些所謂行政處分的確認案我們一年要處理到一萬六千八百多件"},{"start":6617.56,"end":6645.478,"text":"那剛才葉委員有提到說不是什麼iPhone這個問題其實不是這個問題而已不是所謂的器材審驗的問題最主要是因為我們的管制過程裡面很多是所謂的證照或是執照的管制執照是有效期的那萬一我們的委員會比如說我們以這一屆來講比如說我離開我們四個委員到期現在三位委員三位委員是沒有辦法組成一個合法的委員會去進行審議的那所有的案子就會delay下來"},{"start":6646.118,"end":6655.706,"text":"委員洪孟楷等35人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等35人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等35人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等35人擬具"},{"start":6674.301,"end":6698.374,"text":"我們是事前的權力,我們是有政兆管制的而且這個政兆都是一個,不是只有新聞台還有各個,我們有300多個頻道這每一年都會有做相關的議題以上這個部分補充給各個委員,謝謝謝謝主委,那待會請莊委員那因為有委員是第二次發言,我們就盡量減短盡量減短,不是不給發言那我就盡量減短啦,其實各位委員"},{"start":6699.415,"end":6723.713,"text":"那剛我必須要特別指出來了按照整個國家通訊傳播委員會組織法裡面的一個第四條的規定那第四款本來就是在這個整個委員任版前三個月就是應該按照程序去提名去任命新的委員所以承建年承建"},{"start":6724.804,"end":6732.827,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":6746.252,"end":6759.747,"text":"那現在到底要不要重新再去責任人選的一個問題這我尊重大家的一個看法那另外一個所謂的過渡啊大家一直在講說什麼萬年委員不會啦這是一個過渡條款你說萬年"},{"start":6761.169,"end":6761.329,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":6784.994,"end":6800.623,"text":"我看到這個很多的版本我一直在想所以我去爬書了在2005年為什麼當初好多條文不會打架真正打架的是哪裡就是NCC這個條文去打架"},{"start":6802.858,"end":6831.187,"text":"當初之所以打架媒體的評論說NCC管的範圍不僅從新聞局接手廣播電視業務連交通部管的郵電電信業務一併併給NCC就是說掌控媒體這塊政治敏感版圖也就是說誰提名了這一些委員以後政黨的手大家分一分以後大家的手全部都會進到媒體裡面去"},{"start":6832.208,"end":6850.667,"text":"來主導這塊利益的一個大餅當初大家在評論各個政黨為什麼要所謂的用政黨的一個比例放進去是這個原因但是正面的解讀當然可以解讀說有不同的政黨去做一個監督的話會符合"},{"start":6854.871,"end":6855.532,"text":"監督與制衡原則"},{"start":6878.035,"end":6890.353,"text":"做一個分享的這樣的一個概念但我反而會認為說立法院通過以後就算我們都去通過了不管你幾輪通過了立法院通過以後你真的可以擔保這些委員就可以怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":6891.806,"end":6917.432,"text":"有哪一個我們的政黨我們提出來了我們就可以幫忙擔保他事後如何嗎所以還是必須要回歸到責任政治裡面就是所謂的政黨政治你誰執政你屬於行政權的你到最後如果出了事情責任歸誰當然是歸你提名的人歸屬於你這個執政黨啊那如果說大家一起來分享分享到最後"},{"start":6918.592,"end":6920.953,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":6934.117,"end":6950.025,"text":"提名的人出問題當然民進黨、執政黨你必須要負責任哪一個黨執政你提名的人當然你必須要去負責任所以我反而會覺得說整個責任政治這個帳要算清楚其他的部分我看到你光連傅崐萁委員他就兩個版本他到最後一直修"},{"start":6953.496,"end":6955.698,"text":"立法院司法及法制、交通兩委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通兩委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通兩委員會組織"},{"start":6972.779,"end":6976.003,"text":"本院司法及法制、交通兩委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":6991.32,"end":6992.201,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7008.573,"end":7029.298,"text":"以法來提這些人選這個是完全按照法律的規定這不是說你現在已經是cancel內閣了還來提cancel內閣法律還是規定你必須要有行政上的一個作為那至於說怎麼樣的一個產生我相信我今天也聽了很多委員的一個高見那可能今天就比較不容易大家要達到一致的一個看法了"},{"start":7033.468,"end":7036.209,"text":"剪短講一下"},{"start":7062.403,"end":7063.684,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7078.649,"end":7103.109,"text":"因為剛才瑞雄我聽瑞雄或者嘉賓剛才講的當然聽起來也似乎不無道理其實我還是要我告訴你但是我要堅持我們修正因為我們的版本我要告訴你們我想我們也我跟洪孟楷委員我們四個人也有提出一個修正動議我們的修正動議當然就是第一個剛才大家一直講的連任這個部分大概連任一次"},{"start":7103.729,"end":7113.753,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":7129.52,"end":7151.518,"text":"及時務經驗各推薦7名行政院推薦7位我們這個政黨推薦7位推薦14位出來之後再由行政院組成的提名審查委員會那行政院推薦的審查委員會由行政院推薦3名那有各政黨一起在立法院所占席次比例推薦8名學者總共11名"},{"start":7152.859,"end":7169.158,"text":"所以這樣子一個設計其實有沒有所謂的4613號的所謂的這個有違憲這樣的一個設計其實我們這樣的一個做法因為我們現在就看到整個NCC它的獨立性、中立性大家有意見"},{"start":7170.379,"end":7194.819,"text":"所以到底我們立法院能不能夠監督制衡?能不能參與我們的一些制衡的一個意見呢?我看四字六一三號其實他也講到說其實立法院固然有監督制衡的權利那也就是說有肯認說立法院有制衡的權利只是不能實質的去剝奪我們行政院的人事的任命權或進而取代之的"},{"start":7195.339,"end":7196.3,"text":"審查委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":7212.248,"end":7224.551,"text":"擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":7238.666,"end":7240.489,"text":"擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十條及第十條"},{"start":7245.648,"end":7269.21,"text":"所以我看起來這個發揮我們該自治613號講的我們還是要有一些監督制衡的力量完全就是說這個行政院提名的人選我們立法院完全就是說大家到最後就沒有辦法就形成一致的共識去對於這個人選大家又在審這個行使統一選的時候會有很多的意見"},{"start":7270.691,"end":7287.017,"text":"對這個人選所以這樣的設計其實上看起來我是覺得沒有違憲的問題如果你對於說我們講說這些審查委員是八個人大家有意見我們還可以討論或者行政院你人數要多一點你推薦的人數要多一點這個可以討論的"},{"start":7288.477,"end":7303.543,"text":"所以這樣的設計我是覺得符合我們4-613號的解釋所以我們會做這樣子的一個修正動議那另外就是最後就是就那個到底任期屆滿得不得延任的一個規定"},{"start":7304.503,"end":7305.805,"text":"委員洪孟楷"},{"start":7324.795,"end":7329.521,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具、「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7344.588,"end":7352.197,"text":"由立法院行使同意權就夠了嗎?還是必須在提名過程當中加入了一個由各政黨比例構成的審查委員會來進行中階制審查?"},{"start":7357.083,"end":7382.518,"text":"二、萬年條款還是延任條款?是延任條款還是萬年條款?三、任期交錯、任期的半半交錯到底有沒有必要性?我想今天我們就設定在這三個部分首先中華民國憲法本文第八十條法官必須超出黨派之外獨立行使職權包括司法院的大法官也透過這一條"},{"start":7383.601,"end":7394.755,"text":"但是大家以為考試院委員、考試委員、監察委員有沒有要超出黨派獨立行使職權呢?沒有一直到《憲法徵求條文》才讓考試委員跟監察委員必須超出黨派獨立行使職權"},{"start":7401.089,"end":7407.635,"text":"中華民國憲法本文當中有指明要超出黨派的除了這三個機關之外就有中華民國國軍必須超越黨派效忠國家連憲法本文規定的必須獨立行使政權的大法官由總統提名、送交、立法院行使統一之後就足夠獨立了"},{"start":7427.659,"end":7454.925,"text":"有人說因為這個大法官都是總統提名的一手提名的坦白說配合我們的政修條文每一個總統只要任滿八年他可以把十七名大法官全部提名對十五名一個七一個八對兩批十五名大法官全部提名有人因此而這樣質疑說都有同一個總統提名的這十五名大法官沒有辦法獨立行使職權嗎沒有啊"},{"start":7457.273,"end":7479.892,"text":"什麼是要保證他的獨立行使之權?制度上的保障之外還有就是立法院同意權的行使啊所以只要立法院行使的人是同意權提名機關他所提名的人選勢必要通過民意機關同意權的行使才能確保他能夠有他的獨立性"},{"start":7481.325,"end":7496.03,"text":"大法官是如此、考試委員是如此、監察委員也是如此沒有理由說中選會委員、公平教育委員還有NCC委員一定要再透過一個中介的以正當比例組成的審查委員會來進行審查"},{"start":7498.211,"end":7515.587,"text":"不管他最後是按照這個名單來交付立法院行使同意權還是由行政院長參酌之後來交付交給立法院來行使同意權完完全全沒有這個必要性4至613號就是講這個道理簡單講就是這個道理獨立機關或者憲法規定必須獨立行使職權的"},{"start":7521.249,"end":7548.476,"text":"現任機關經過了人事同意權立法院行使之後他就能夠遵守並有效的依法來行使職權第二個那到底是延任條款還是萬年條款呢剛剛呢我一旦用了很多的斗膽來形容啊哇 這個國民大會變成萬年國會是我們黃委員、我們朱多委員年輕學生時代反萬年國會第一個撻伐的對象"},{"start":7550.216,"end":7557.202,"text":"大法官在1990年的4至261號憲法第28條國民大會必須六年改選一次它的任期到次屆開會前為止有沒有成為萬年條款?沒有啊!它連違憲都沒有啊!真正讓萬年國會產生的4至31號講的是什麼?"},{"start":7578.218,"end":7592.928,"text":"講的是立法院、講的是監察院啦在4至31當中講到了每3年、每6年改選的監察委員、立法委員當時因為國家遭逢重大變故沒辦法定期改選不得不讓他繼續的延任"},{"start":7594.468,"end":7623.376,"text":"但是在四至二六一號也寫說即使國家造逢變故也不能讓他繼續的延任下去所以針對國民大會也做了如上的解釋二六一號很清楚說憲法二十八條規定本來國民大會的任期可以到下屆開會前為止這本來就是可以的但是基於民意機關基於政權機關他有定期改選的必要所以呢他也沒有讓他可以無限期的延任下去"},{"start":7624.266,"end":7637.955,"text":"民意機關、政權機關定期改選不管是講立法院、講當時的監察院或講國民大會都是因為他們的委員、他們的成員是透過跟人民契約有任期的名牌規定"},{"start":7639.141,"end":7658.483,"text":"目前公平教育委員、NCC委員、中選委員他不是跟人民打的選舉契約四年一任或幾年一任他是代表國家獨立機關來行使公權力所以剛剛我們的主委也講了這個延任條款"},{"start":7659.043,"end":7682.865,"text":"事實上就是避免他的委員合議制的委員因為缺額無法過半以至無法持續的行使這一點不獨NCC如此中選會也是如此公平交易委員會也是如此所以這是延任條款還是萬年條款我想我就不敢斗膽的再加以延伸但是至少我認為現行的現行法是可以運作的最後一個"},{"start":7683.726,"end":7695.722,"text":"到底任期辦辦交錯這樣可不可以那我覺得呢在這裡跟翁委員做一個分享個人過去在地方政府擔任副首長我們地方有一個有限電視費率審議委員會"},{"start":7700.888,"end":7720.981,"text":"規定每位委員只能做兩任,因為涉及到費率的審議非常敏感,壓力很大,業者非常關切。但是我們明白地在裡面,透過自然行程的慣例,我們每次改任都改任一半,確保任期交錯,新舊經驗傳承。"},{"start":7724.144,"end":7749.136,"text":"大法官有沒有這個制度?有!目前正確條文裡面大法官15名分為七人組跟八人組當年就是一組四年,一組兩年所以讓他任期交錯很可惜後來在馬總統任內由於他新提名補提名的大法官並沒有做自原任期屆滿為止早生他的任期重新計算造成現在這個半半交錯變成全時交錯"},{"start":7750.757,"end":7775.984,"text":"所以如果真的委員們認為NCC的委員的任期交錯制、辦辦交錯制要予以確認的話那麼我們或許可以思考在未來修正動議的時候可以再納入這樣的可能性讓他這七名當中三名跟四名呢他們如果因為有狀況不能夠提任時他的延任呢會吃到下一任的任期簡單講他本應該四年的"},{"start":7776.923,"end":7778.485,"text":"委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7791.923,"end":7819.905,"text":"任期原來的設計是半半交錯那真的要維持它的話就必須在設有延任條款的同時將這個延任的期限予以切到、切期不然的話不切期延任的人後來再提名任命的人任期重新起算四年這個半半交錯就無法維持以上呢供各位朝野黨派的委員參考三個部分第一所謂的審查委員會並不足以去保障它的獨立性"},{"start":7821.784,"end":7829.39,"text":"獨立性也不需要藉由黨派比例產生的審查委員來確認第二所謂的嚴任條款如果視為獨立機關"},{"start":7831.72,"end":7853.586,"text":"不間斷的行使職權之必要,可以參考4至261號的說明大法官為什麼認為政權機關也有不得不中斷的必要,可以參考第三,任期半半交作制,如果真的要確保有其必要的話那嚴任制跟任期半半交作制要做一個折衷的一些銜接避免嚴任制破壞了任期半半交作制,這一點本席可以考慮"},{"start":7860.37,"end":7884.274,"text":"我想回應一下翁曉琳委員您是留學德國的我雖然沒有留學德國但是我有一些嘗試性的判斷想要來就教於您我覺得也是要清楚的反駁您剛提到說這一次NCC的修法希望說台灣能夠來借鏡跟學習德國的經驗因為就德國的經驗呢他們是可以把權力跟立法機關分享"},{"start":7885.334,"end":7887.995,"text":"這不是廢話嗎?德國是內閣制啊!德國是行政立法合一內閣官員就是國會議員啊!內閣制啊!台灣是什麼制度呢?台灣是雙手掌制啊!台灣不是內閣制啊!怎麼會這樣就風馬牛不相及把一個制度拿來就類比說德國可以這樣"},{"start":7910.523,"end":7934.606,"text":"來共享行政立法共享權利所以臺灣的NCC委員的提名跟任命就要讓立法院來主導或是取代行政院的人事權這完全是錯誌的完全就是一個錯誤的比喻第二個德國的NCC類似NCC的組織是什麼?文委員"},{"start":7936.069,"end":7938.272,"text":"德國類似NCC的組織是什麼?"},{"start":7953.735,"end":7972.117,"text":"德國在中央是FNAFederal Network Agency他是處理德國聯邦網路局他過去曾經是電信郵政管理局然後電力瓦斯電信郵政鐵路現在是他的管轄"},{"start":7973.098,"end":7998.745,"text":"因為它是聯邦制所以它的廣播電視的事務就我所知應當是各邦去處理所以跟台灣是一個獨立的NCC來全部來縱理狀況也不一樣這是我的理解我不一定完全正確但是這是我的理解那我現在要回到這個本題也就是今天的修法"},{"start":7999.565,"end":8005.792,"text":"完全是在一個在野黨的委員認為也相信政治是可以凌駕專業的"},{"start":8008.035,"end":8031.278,"text":"就是建構在一個很大的歧異點也因為在野黨的委員不相信行政權不相信行政權的任命所以認為由立法院自己來取代行政權自己來任命會比行政院的任命更好這是你們的命題第二個在野黨委員的命題是你們不相信大法官"},{"start":8032.139,"end":8050.652,"text":"因為你們認為大法官過去就這幾年是蔡政府所提名的你們都綠而不談這是國會行使的同意權你們認為這是蔡英文來任命的所以這些大法官都是有民進黨的背景所以你們認為大法官的釋憲解釋你們的不採信"},{"start":8053.601,"end":8081.482,"text":"在這個重大的起義的前提下你們就是不相信國家的憲法如果說在這個基本的前提上有這麼大的分歧我覺得真的很難在這個地方繼續對話你們認為如果是現在行政院提名的NCC的委員就必然是民進黨介入的政治打手你們認為這樣不行所以乾脆就開放各黨在立法院各政黨都派自己的打手來好了"},{"start":8082.625,"end":8105.336,"text":"用政治來介入專業,這樣是對嗎?你縱使不相信民進黨好了也不要不相信自己現在是國會多數啊任命權是行政院任命但是要經立法院來行使同意權現在的國會多數是藍白陣營啊"},{"start":8106.707,"end":8135.038,"text":"所以說我覺得如果都奠基於不相信別人只相信自己自己最大自己最好自己認命的就是絕對的專業自己認命的就是絕對的多元那我覺得這很難對話下去在各個議案上都會有這樣子很大的困境但奉勸一句就算不相信別人也要相信自己現在的國會多數是國民黨跟民眾黨的合作"},{"start":8136.229,"end":8163.725,"text":"任何的人事任命也都要經過你們這一關但是不要把一個制度面的遊戲規則去做一個任意的破壞否則我常常在說制度是永續的不論誰執政這個制度都要永續下去哪一天也有可能未來的執政黨可能也會政黨輪替這個都是台灣民主的常態"},{"start":8165.006,"end":8181.169,"text":"但是因為現在你們不相信民進黨的行政權你們就認為要用立法院的政黨比例制來打破現在既有的很穩定運作的狀態跟制度的設計我認為這樣真是過度的政治化所以我也覺得很貴賬但這個是要做成這個紀錄上所以NCC回到我的"},{"start":8191.658,"end":8212.835,"text":"初衷現行的法條是經過非常多次的檢驗運行也經過大法官的釋字讓過去違憲的條文失效那不要切莫再重蹈覆轍不要再一次要站在憲法的對立面我認為這是一個動盪而不是一個穩定運作的專業獨立機關的NCC好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":8218.785,"end":8238.432,"text":"還有什麼要...是,我想要再補充一下剛剛胡適耀委員講到我們現在台灣是雙手掌制所以似乎德國的內閣制裡面的制度都一無可取之處都不值得學習我沒有說一無可取,你不要...那包含我剛剛所講的斷章取義,我是說不能全盤移植,copy,好嗎?讓他講完"},{"start":8242.734,"end":8257.793,"text":"那麼我現在要講的就是德國還是很多地方不管在司法、法制在各個領域上面的這個措施都是非常值得我們去學習的為什麼人家是一個民主成熟的國家"},{"start":8258.534,"end":8275.953,"text":"為什麼人家在通訊傳播事業的監理上面沒有出現有受到民眾這麼多的質疑說他們是不獨立他們高度的政治化就是因為他們的制度設計良善所以減少了人民的疑慮剛剛講到德國他是一個聯邦"},{"start":8279.837,"end":8290.041,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":8297.884,"end":8320.116,"text":"他就是一個非常大的一個組織一個類似也是合一制的機構在法律上面明定由各個不同的社會、政治、宗教、團體等等要任命要提名任命相關的委員那不僅是"},{"start":8321.417,"end":8343.103,"text":"由提名然後直接經過他們的議會就同意任命所以這個部分來講是在德國的地方就是這麼做那您剛剛說的在聯邦中央體制他們這叫做Bundestagsagentur它基本上它是一個相當於我們這樣的網路總署的一個聯邦網路總署的一個概念那它確實它是不管它是不負責廣電媒體事務的所以我現在要講的"},{"start":8353.226,"end":8379.353,"text":"對你這個部分是沒有講出是正確的但是我只是要說人家在法律裡面規定的清清楚楚沒有像我們是完全是由行政院這裡一手掌握全部的委員我現在要講的就是民主制度它就是個權力分立互相制衡的制度我今天我作為立法委員我做"},{"start":8380.37,"end":8407.646,"text":"代表立法權我本來就有這個義務責任我要去監督行政監督行政機關這個本來就是屬於憲法上面權力分立原則裡面所講的什麼叫制衡我如果說這個完全這個行政院提名阿貓阿狗我都照單權說這叫做尊重嗎我可以完全信任嗎我認為說不要曲解了這個"},{"start":8409.927,"end":8430.733,"text":"我們作為在野黨立委說我們就不相信行政院就不相信你們所提名的如果你們提名的是夠專業、夠獨立客觀的人我們仍然是會通過那只是說從前幾年的經驗來看我們就看不到你們所提名的NCC委員他有事做了什麼會讓社會大眾認為他們是獨立客觀在行使職權的這樣的一個事情那麼"},{"start":8438.827,"end":8440.63,"text":"這個部分是我想要強調"},{"start":8444.352,"end":8468.485,"text":"作為行政、立法、司法、考試監察這幾個重要的權力機關大家是一個動態的合作動態的製衡的關係不是說我們好像都是一直杯葛其他的權力機關不是,如果說是行政院也是基於同樣尊重"},{"start":8469.105,"end":8478.733,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人�"},{"start":8480.107,"end":8490.851,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條"},{"start":8499.614,"end":8516.389,"text":"委員會組織法我們是希望能夠去建立更好的制度不管未來誰執政我們都期待這個委員會它的運作是能夠受到人民信賴大家會相信它是獨立行使職權的"},{"start":8519.627,"end":8538.288,"text":"吳委員簡短我簡短我也覺得留學德國的翁曉琳委員講到德國的制度就非常自知烏烏跟詞窮但至少你也驗證了吳思耀的說法沒有錯您剛剛講我一定要澄清"},{"start":8539.389,"end":8565.271,"text":"我從頭到尾都在說不同的制度台灣是雙手掌制德國是內閣制制度不能直接拿來複製貼上我的意思就是要告訴你們這一次在野黨不管在各國的制度上都是喜歡去減下複製貼上而沒有去思考整個權力運作包括你們常常在講的美國制怎麼樣事實上制度就不一樣嘛"},{"start":8566.492,"end":8581.669,"text":"五權憲法、三權憲法就是不一樣所以剛剛我對您提出來的挑戰您也沒有辦法回應我您剛剛在說的德國的制度人家可以全力分享因為它就是內閣制行政立法就是國會議員跟內閣閣員一致"},{"start":8584.912,"end":8589.399,"text":"那第二個講到來講這個什麼中央的這個我說的FNA好啦不要插話FNA也好或是各邦你剛剛的講法都驗證了我也是做足功課來的好"},{"start":8598.103,"end":8622.108,"text":"那現在回到本題check and balance您剛講了很多次check and balance制衡制衡在我們的制度設計上在NCC的人事任命上就是在台灣的憲政基礎上就是行政權擁有任命權立法權行使同意權這就是台灣的憲政規範下的check and balance就是如此"},{"start":8624.813,"end":8642.98,"text":"不是你們現在成為國會多數你們就認為你們可以把行政權的任命權拿到成為由政黨來任命這個大大的去溢出了立法院應當擁有的權利不要再一次站在憲法的對立面"},{"start":8643.92,"end":8662.905,"text":"所以講回來呢不同的制度不要直接複製、貼上這樣是混淆視聽我們可以學習國外的制度良善的部分我都同意但是也不要一再的去蔑視了NCC從過去運作到現在在你們眼中只有罪惡"},{"start":8664.145,"end":8690.654,"text":"好像這個機關組織從以前到現在都是好像講的都是政治打手我覺得對於專業被任命而且被過去國會來行使同意權而產出的NCC委員都是不公平的所以不要過度的把政治的手伸到獨立機關裡面去不要公然的把政黨想要遂行的政治目的"},{"start":8692.135,"end":8705.951,"text":"來升到獨立機關裡頭我真的認為大家擁有權力更要自治彼此尊重行政立法彼此尊重就嚴禁於此"},{"start":8706.511,"end":8712.113,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案》、"},{"start":8725.279,"end":8753.871,"text":"那我們要不要就做...因為今天我們的協商過程公開嘛發言內容也都有錄音、錄影而且列入紀錄那因為目前這個條文還是需要持續溝通取得共識所以說後續我是依據立法院執行法第十二章的規定辦理好不好對就是...對...對...對...那那個後面還有事"},{"start":8757.128,"end":8758.189,"text":"審查委員會保留修正動議、經負二讀委員會提案"},{"start":8786.898,"end":8795.427,"text":"那這樣我補充說明一下針對五、七、八、十條一併送協商那現在散會"},{"start":8811.598,"end":8814.807,"text":"等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第十條及第十條"}]}},{"id":"16014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16014","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609309956cdde15970e445fc32f41448fc019186e52af1244320e5dd83142319f3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-14T08:30:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T17:37:00+08:00","duration":32804,"影片長度":"09:06:44","委員發言時間":"08:30:16 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9.989,"text":"速發部一年200億的預算讓唐鳳拿來點面線變成出國發展部。民進黨不在乎。台電一年虧損4000億政府撥補也沒有關係。"},{"start":2344.945,"end":2364.746,"text":"勞保、我們的勞動部長何佩珊說,撥補就是改革,所以錢花了也沒關係。超私、快篩、高端、光電、種種弊案,基本上不管是幾十億、幾百億甚至幾千億,他也不在乎。"},{"start":2366.052,"end":2393.565,"text":"然後告訴你說不行警察消防人員我們的空中海巡移民的危險勤務人員不行一年多花20億你們憑什麼我要告訴大家昨天我在司法法治委員會看了很痛心啊我們的警消人員你知道嗎平均的壽命比一般的民眾要少6歲"},{"start":2395.506,"end":2424.667,"text":"多少的人在槍戰當中與命多少人在火場當中與命每次只要有警消人員犧牲生命的時候你看到官員出來就開始出來公祭了今天公祭明天就忘記接下來連所謂的警消我們的退休人員的待遇他跟你講一年二十億太多了不可以你們配不上"},{"start":2426.311,"end":2450.299,"text":"昨天全程在直播我相信所有的我們的警察、消防、海巡、移民以及空中的危險勤務的人員你們眼睛應該都看得清清楚楚誰一路捍衛我們危險勤務人員的未來的待遇昨天有警察告訴我說謝謝羅志強我說不用謝我是我們要謝謝你們謝謝所有的警察同仁"},{"start":2456.471,"end":2460.053,"text":"主席各位官員各位委員各位媒體朋友大家早安本席今天想質疑的是臺北101大樓五年就可以蓋好但是我們的國會改革法案卻八年寫不出來"},{"start":2485.23,"end":2506.468,"text":"國會改革是一個讓陽光照進國會重要而且攸關人民權益的事情。但是從2015年蔡英文前總統提出改革方案歷經8年全面執政到她卸任後毫無動靜。不知道是民進黨忘記了承諾還是想不起來呢?"},{"start":2507.689,"end":2530.364,"text":"現在竟然有執政黨的立委上節目辯解說8年都沒有推動改革是因為法案太難所以寫不出來先不論這次國會改革法案的核心價值跟內容架構早在2012年也就是12年前由我們民進黨的林佳龍立委所提出"},{"start":2531.084,"end":2546.758,"text":"我們來看看世界上其他重要的事情都花多少時間完成以下資料也是參考網友整理非常感謝網友如此關心臺灣民主首先讓世界看到臺灣的臺北1011999年動工2004年完工開幕"},{"start":2554.224,"end":2579.076,"text":"歷時5年4個月臺灣第一條捷運木柵線自1988年動工1996年啟用歷時7年6個月還有世界上其他的重大事件由愛因斯坦提出的廣義相對論1907年發想1915年就發表出來花了8年發表影響全世界的理論"},{"start":2580.217,"end":2598.439,"text":"第一代的iPhone2004年研發2007年完成也才花了三年時間2016年iPhone7到今年已經iPhone15都出幾代了結果執政黨說國會改革法案太難寫不出來"},{"start":2599.6,"end":2614.369,"text":"回到臺灣執政黨全面8年執政8年的時間啊臺灣黑熊最多都可以生出三代黑熊寶寶可以當黑熊阿公了可是法案還是寫不出來"},{"start":2615.37,"end":2632.226,"text":"直到最後呢我們終於寫出了執政黨的修正動議可是當其他兩黨要支持的時候民進黨又舉手反對了所以我們到底要給民進黨多少時間才能完成國會改革呢?"},{"start":2633.729,"end":2637.492,"text":"謝謝陳金威委員的發言。接下來請登記第五位麥玉珍委員發言。"},{"start":2679.947,"end":2679.967,"text":"啊﹖"},{"start":2680.863,"end":2684.546,"text":"兩位院長好,各位親愛的家人,大家早安。"},{"start":2710.803,"end":2735.641,"text":"邀請了多位委員、專家、學者以及新住民的團體共同商議強化新住民權益保障義務。這段時間我們所做的所有的努力都是為了推動新住民基本法、立法的進程創造機會、栽培人才、留住人才、建立平台"},{"start":2737.432,"end":2764.559,"text":"復國立民讓新住民有機會為臺灣貢獻及服務。從106年開始就有委員陸續的提出新住民基本法草案但很可惜多數只停留在一睹後續這不了了之。在6月12日非常的感謝我們最敬愛的高進素梅召委"},{"start":2765.399,"end":2788.996,"text":"立庭以及內政部委員會所有的委員們,如此重視我們臺灣新住民的權益及利物,積極地排案審查,不分黨派,匯集草野公事,在第11屆的第1會期就讓新住民基本法草案等"},{"start":2789.896,"end":2801.407,"text":"案並案審查完畢成功送出委員會在並案審查送三讀事實證明只要有"},{"start":2802.83,"end":2821.358,"text":"破釜沉舟的執行力和堅持的理念。科文哲主席說的政治的核心是執行力,認真做對的事,中人的智慧勝過一個人的智慧。"},{"start":2822.318,"end":2822.338,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":2837.441,"end":2863.621,"text":"成立行政院新住民專責機構推動新住民教育、文化、語言、就業、關懷照顧以及公共參與等各項政策。期望能夠真正實現對新住民權利的支持讓我們出一份力量。希望朝野協商"},{"start":2881.206,"end":2883.188,"text":"謝謝麥議員的發言。報告委員會現在登記。國是論壇的發言委員均已發言完畢。我們現在休息。"},{"start":3977.892,"end":3980.589,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5428.94,"end":5441.795,"text":"發言會現在我們繼續開會請秘書長報告出席人數。報告議員會出席委員39人已足法定人數。我們現在開會先處理朝野黨團協商結論請議事人員宣讀。"},{"start":5444.895,"end":5464.313,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間113年6月13日星期四上午9時地點一場三樓會議室決定事項一各黨團同意定於6月19日星期三及20日星期四召開全院委員會審查行政院所提對立法院職權行事法部分條文及"},{"start":5465.174,"end":5479.76,"text":"中華民國新法徵定第五章之一章明及第141條之一條文字附議案審查時,邀請行政院院長列席說明。各自分別由國民黨黨團推派11人、民進黨黨團推派11人、臺灣民眾黨黨團推派2人進行詢答。每位委員詢答時間為10分鐘。"},{"start":5487.923,"end":5505.83,"text":"尋答順序依例授權議事處辦理。明單請於6月18日星期二中午12時前送交議事處會診。預期適同放棄。二、上四午復議案定於6月21日星期五上午報告事項處理完畢進行記名投票表決。"},{"start":5506.77,"end":5533.458,"text":"二案分別為二張票,同時投票,並由各黨團推派一人擔任投開票監察員。區域相關投票事務工作依例授權依次處辦理。當日會議不進行施政方針報告質詢。主持人韓國瑜江啟臣。協商代表傅坤祺、洪孟凱、林思敏、柯建銘、吳思堯、鍾岳雄、黃國昌、吳春成、黃珊珊。宣讀完畢。請問院會對以上朝野協商結論有異議。"},{"start":5536.24,"end":5558.719,"text":"沒有異議我們通過。我們現在113年6月13日朝野黨團協商結論經決定如下。一、各黨團同意於6月19日星期三及20日星期四召開全院委員會審查行政院所提對立法院職權新設法部分條文及中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名及第141條之一條文之附議案。"},{"start":5561.241,"end":5568.251,"text":"審查時,邀請行政院院長列席說明。各自分別由國民黨團推派11位、民黨團推派11位、臺灣民眾黨黨團推派2位進行詢答。"},{"start":5573.322,"end":5599.936,"text":"每位委員尋答時間為10分鐘,尋答順序依例授權議事處辦理。明單請於6月18日星期二中午12點前送議事處會診,預期視同放棄。二、上述附議案於6月21日星期五上午報告事項處理完畢,進行記名投票表決。兩案分別為兩張票,同時投票,並由各黨團推派一人擔任投開票監察員。"},{"start":5601.076,"end":5611.148,"text":"其餘相關投票事務工作依例授權議事處辦理。當日會議不進行施政方針報告質詢。報言會,現在我們進行報告事項。請議事長宣讀第一會期第17次會議。"},{"start":5617.87,"end":5627.017,"text":"宣讀立法院第11屆第1會期第17次會議．事由．時間中華民國113年6月7日上午9時1分至9時26分時時至10時26分下午2時30分至5時3分6月11日上午9時至10時24分下午2時30分至5時7分"},{"start":5639.946,"end":5641.127,"text":"．第11屆第1會期第16次會議．事由．決定．"},{"start":5662.578,"end":5680.327,"text":"第2至7、9至48、51至224案均決定交互相關委員會審查或交互相關委員會。第8案決定退為程序委員會重新提出。第49、50案均決定進戶報讀與相關提案並按協商。第225至228案為教育及文化委員會"},{"start":5688.33,"end":5701.563,"text":"等所提示報告案。質詢事項甲﹚行政院答案部分兩件﹚與本院委員執行部分兩件﹚對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢﹚決定﹚下次會議繼續進行施政方針報告之質詢﹚討論事項第一案決議並定期處理。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5707.694,"end":5708.054,"text":"報告施政院院長"},{"start":5723.905,"end":5751.479,"text":"第二案,行政院行為本院三讀通過修正立法院職權行事法部分條文,經研議全案確屬之案難行,依憲法增修條文第三條第二項第二款規定,以請本院復議案。第三案,行政院行為本院三讀通過增定中華民國刑法第五章之一章名,及第141條之一條文,經研議確屬之案難行,依憲法增修條文第三條第二項第二款規定,以請本院復議案。"},{"start":5752.459,"end":5780.82,"text":"第四案,總統府秘書長橫維本院通過修正立法院職權行使法部分條文,增定中華民國刑法第五章之一章名及第141條之一條文自請總統公佈案,經行政院研議以其確屬治案難行,以依憲法增修條文第三條第二項第二款規定,陳奉總統合可以起本院復議案。陳秀園會見。以上三案你請院會交求院務委員會審查。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5781.42,"end":5804.839,"text":"報言會以上三案經黨團協商結論決定於6月19至20日召開全院委員會審查。審查時,邀請行政院院長列席說明。6月21日上午報告事項處理完畢,進行記名投票表決。請宣讀第五案。第五案,北陸原羅志祥的16位鄰居住宅法第25條的吳修正才完請審議案。陳修緣會見你請回交內政委員會審查。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5809.636,"end":5813.317,"text":"五一通過下一案五一通過下一案五一通過下一案"},{"start":5836.411,"end":5838.212,"text":"第八案．第九案．第九案．"},{"start":5859.464,"end":5873.633,"text":"第十案,本月5月馬文君的18日連續計劃變遷因應法第四條條文修正草案請審議案,請學員會見,您請會教社會福利及衛生環境、經濟、財政、內政、交通、教育及文化令委員會審查,宣言完畢。"},{"start":5875.074,"end":5888.909,"text":"第11案 本院委員會由馬文君等19人聯聚。相信障礙者權益保障法第30條之一。第50條及第52條條文修正財務情緒一案。陳學員會見理情和教育社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查。需讀完畢。"},{"start":5890.37,"end":5915.01,"text":"第12案,本院委員陳昭明等18人鄰居,加持型及非加持型營業稅法第8條條文修正財管侵稅一案。陳秀園會計理請回交財政委員會審查,宣言完畢。第13案,本院委員陳昭明等16人鄰居,選民健康保險法第48條條文修正財管侵稅一案。陳秀園會計理請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣言完畢。"},{"start":5916.651,"end":5925.959,"text":"第14案．委員陳昌明的17案．據《專業保險法》第10條、第11條及第19條之3條維修正常案請誰案．持續委員會見理情會交、社會福利及外交環境委員會審查．宣布完畢。第15案．委員吳曉琳的24案．理據衛星廣播電視法部分條維修正常案請誰案．持續委員會見理情會交、交通委員會審查．宣布完畢。"},{"start":5943.254,"end":5945.416,"text":"第16案：第17案：無意通過下案"},{"start":5967.572,"end":5990.013,"text":"第18案,委員員林怡瑾等21人離去,通訊保障及監察法部分條維修政策請申案。請求委員會建議請回交司法及法律委員會審查。宣布完畢。報告委員會,報告事項第18案,現由民進黨黨團提議禁服二讀,與相關提案並案協商,請問委員會有無異議?沒有異議,通過下一案。"},{"start":5990.646,"end":6011.361,"text":"第十九案,委員委員林怡瑾的20人離聚,習堅防治法修正採訪情緒案,請衆議院會見理情會交司法及法治委員會審查,宣言完畢。報告事項第十九案,現有民進黨黨團提禁服二讀與相關提案併案協商,請問院會有異議?沒有異議,通過下議案。"},{"start":6011.874,"end":6038.121,"text":"第二十二．委員．一、等二十人．具．平等工作法部門條文修正財運情緒二．財修委員會見．請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查．宣傳必．第二十一案．委員．陳培宇．等二十人．具．運動產業發展條例整理第七條之一、第七條之二．第七條之三條文財運情緒二．財修委員會見．請回交教育局文化委員會審查．宣傳必．"},{"start":6039.341,"end":6064.86,"text":"第二十二案,本院委員盧憲怡等二十人離聚,老人福利法第二條第九條及第二十二條的維修正常勤申案,陳修緣會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣布完畢。第二十三案,本院委員邱月華等二十人離聚,社會救助法部分條維修正常勤申案,陳修緣會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查,宣布完畢。第二十三案,本院委員邱月華等二十人離聚,社會救助法部分條維修正常勤申案,陳修緣會見你請回交社會福利及衛生環"},{"start":6065.28,"end":6088.371,"text":"第24案、本院委員蔡英瑜等16人聯聚、銀行法第125條及第125條之4條維修證草案請審議案。﹐財政委員會見、立行會交、財政委員會審查﹐宣布完畢。第25案、本院委員蔡英瑜等16人聯聚、科技宣查及保障法草案請審議案。﹐財政委員會見、立行會交、司法及法律委員會審查﹐宣布完畢。"},{"start":6089.071,"end":6117.332,"text":"報告委員會報告事項第25案,現有民進黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案並按協商,請問委員會有無異議。面議通過下議案。第26案,委員會參與短時間連續期間防治法修正草原清水案,請委員會建立請文化交通司法及法治委員會審查,宣讀完畢。報告委員會報告事項第26案,現有民進黨黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案並按協商,請問委員會有無異議。"},{"start":6118.493,"end":6121.554,"text":"明議通告下案明議通告下案明議通告下案"},{"start":6148.001,"end":6163.408,"text":"無異議通過。下一案。第29案。北魏遠河新船等21家地區。照期犯罪危害防水條例草原侵水一案。持續委員會見。立行回交內政委員會審查。宣言完畢。報告委員會報告事項第29案。現有民主黨團提議禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商。請問委員會有無異議。沒有異議通過。下一案。"},{"start":6170.253,"end":6181.049,"text":"第32 本日臺灣民眾黨黨團聯聚 中華民族刑法第185條條無修正草案請審議案 財修委員會見立行會交司法及法制免或審查 宣讀完畢"},{"start":6182.233,"end":6184.275,"text":"五、一通過下案五、一通過下案五、一通過下案"},{"start":6209.995,"end":6234.35,"text":"第三十三案（北院臺灣民眾囊囊團理局國民年金法第54條之一條無修正草案請水案（財修院會見你請會教社會福利及衛生環境維護審查（宣布完畢五一通過下案（第三十四案（北院臺灣民眾囊囊團理局社會救助法第11條條無修正草案請水案（財修院會見你請會教社會福利及衛生環境維護審查（宣布完畢五一通過下案"},{"start":6234.73,"end":6257.648,"text":"第三十五案本院臺灣民眾黨團理局綜營管制法第26條及第28條條務修正財務勤水案財政委員會見禮請會交社會福利及偶像環境委員會審查宣讀完畢五議通過效應案第三十六案本院委員有號等37人理局軍黨及其附屬組織不當取得財政處理條例第4條及第34條條務修正財務勤水案財政委員會見禮請會交內政財政司法及法制3委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":6264.754,"end":6280.578,"text":"報告委員會報告事項第36案現有民進黨黨團體退回程序委員會重新提出請問委員會有異有異我們進行表決我們進行表決所有請議事人員分發表決卡我們現在按鈴7分鐘開始"},{"start":6658.135,"end":6676.502,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6706.014,"end":6716.14,"text":"報告委員會要溫馨提示一下請問每位委員是不是都有簽到第二請問每位委員是不是都有拿到表決卡"},{"start":6717.864,"end":6735.497,"text":"都拿到。好,報告委員會現在針對民進黨黨團提議報告事項第36案退回程序委員會進行表決。現有民進黨黨團提議要求記名表決。我們記名表決時間一分鐘現在開始。"},{"start":6756.732,"end":6778.814,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6811.636,"end":6819.059,"text":"多元會現在報告表決結果出席委員101位贊成49位反對52位多元會現有民進黨黨團提議重複表決我們現在進行重複表決記名表決時間一分鐘現在開始"},{"start":6841.015,"end":6860.077,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6868.552,"end":6894.498,"text":"發言委員：完整會議發言委員：完整會議發言委員：完整會議發言委員：完整會議發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":6910.509,"end":6933.804,"text":"報告委員會再次宣布表決結果,出席101位,贊成49位,反對52位,贊成者少數不通過。本案照程序委員會意見通過。下一案第37二,本會議委員張家俊已撤回前提之職務診療是否草案二,程序委員會見林行為同意撤回。宣告完畢。無異議通過。下一案"},{"start":6934.224,"end":6948.631,"text":"第38案．經濟部函送財團法人中國生產力中心的21家財團法人一百十二年度決算數案．財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會一百十二年度決算數案．財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會一百十二年度決算數案．財團法人"},{"start":6962.197,"end":6978.217,"text":"報告院會請大家輕聲細語好嗎?下一案第40案 內政法輪功財團法人二五八事件接連基金會等邦交財團法人一百十二年度全算數案。全算案會見聯席會長內政委員會審查宣布完畢。"},{"start":6982.967,"end":7004.372,"text":"第41屆金融監督額領委會函送財團法人臺灣金融研訓院等即將財團法人一百選年度決算書案。財政委員會審查稅讀完畢。第42案文化部函送財團法人國際文化藝術基金會等即將財團法人一百選年度決算書案。財政委員會監督額領委員會審查稅讀完畢。"},{"start":7009.853,"end":7024.17,"text":"第四屆三日（核能安全委員會（涵送參堵法人中華民國輻射防護協會（及參堵法人核能資訊中心一百選例入局算數二（請學員會見例行會長（交給文化委員或省長（宣讀完畢"},{"start":7025.325,"end":7053.673,"text":"五、一通過下一案。第44案。司法院還送財政法人法律輔助基金會一百選領度決算書案。陳秀元會見李景輝加入司法局法制委員會審查,宣讀完畢。五、一通過下一案。第45案。法務部還送財政法人台灣更生保護會、財政法人福建頓生保護會及財政法人犯罪被害人保護協會一百選領度決算書案。陳秀元會見李景輝加入司法局法制委員會審查,宣讀完畢。五、一通過下一案。"},{"start":7054.754,"end":7074.654,"text":"第46案,環境部函宋財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等施加財團法人一百十二年度決算書案﹚強修委員會見臨時委員會交社會福利及互相環境委員會審查﹚宣讀完畢第47案,行政院函宋中華民國一百十四年度中央政府決算編制辦法﹚強修委員會見臨時委員會交財政委員會﹚宣讀完畢"},{"start":7078.499,"end":7100.187,"text":"委員通過下案。第48日,行政院喊送中華民國114年度中央政府組織在附屬單位上編制辦法,程序委員會見民進會及財政委員會。宣讀完畢。報告委員會再一次拜託大家稍微稍微"},{"start":7114.394,"end":7121.2,"text":"我指導國產生活、國產便當餐、國產便當餐。"},{"start":7139.861,"end":7165.076,"text":"好謝謝謝謝再一次拜託議員會大家保持宿敬讓我們的議案可以繼續進行下去謝謝大家通過下一案第49案財政部很為激動調教牛肉烘焙用奶粉、奶油、污水奶油及小麥等萬事而上貨品關稅稅率10日期間自113.4月1日起至同年6月30日之程序委員會見例行會將財政委員會宣布完畢無異通過下一案"},{"start":7165.476,"end":7191.544,"text":"第50案財政部海外修正經出口報單宣佈事項更正昨夜拜訪財政委員會建立行會教財政委員會宣布外閉。第51案大陸委員會海外修正公告臺灣地區人民法人團體或其他機構禁止擔任大陸地區黨務軍事行政或具政治機關各團體之職務或其成員之事項復建。財政委員會建立行會教內政委員會宣布外閉。"},{"start":7194.605,"end":7218.926,"text":"報告委員會本案國民黨黨團體改交審查本案交內政委員會審查。下一案繼續。第52案內政委員會修正替代役以及管理辦法。陳秀元會見你請回交內政委員會。宣讀完畢。無異通過下一案。第53案內政委員從全國性消防財政法人本於安全可考慮原則所為其他有助於增加財源值投資項目解讀。陳秀元會見你請回交內政委員會。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7222.109,"end":7223.11,"text":"第54議案第55議案第55議案"},{"start":7247.964,"end":7266.554,"text":"第56案．經濟母海維修生專業經貿戶技師辦理能源管理法檢查業務任何管理辦法第二條條文．修園會見臨時會交經濟委員會．虛擬外幣．第57案．經濟母海維修生技師或能源管理人員辦理能源管理業務資格認定辦法第二條條文．修園會見臨時會交經濟委員會．虛擬外幣．"},{"start":7271.337,"end":7283.262,"text":"第58日經濟部委員會修正能源用戶自治或委託計時或合格能源管理人員設置登記辦法第二條條文。陳修緣會屆理情委員會交經濟委員會。續理違併。第59日經濟部委員會修正工業登記規則。陳修緣會屆理情委員會交經濟委員會。續理違併。報言會本案由國民黨黨團提議改交審查本案交經濟委員會審查。下一案"},{"start":7296.618,"end":7316.941,"text":"第62經濟武漢維修陣用電廠所及專任電機技術人員管理位置第二條條文,請衆議院會見,您請回交經濟委員會,宣讀外幣。第61案經濟武漢維修陣行辦工業人使用毗鄰非都市土地擴展計畫申請審查辦法第5條副表,請衆議院會見,您請回交經濟委員會,宣讀外幣。下一案"},{"start":7326.513,"end":7345.569,"text":"第62案（經濟部考慮修正中央管的河川程序圖是使用河川工地使用費收費標準第二條副表（財政委員會見議請回交經濟委員會宣讀完畢。第63案（經濟部考慮修正經濟部所屬產業園區管理機構下水道使用管理及收費規定。"},{"start":7346.89,"end":7364.305,"text":"程序委員會見議請回交經濟委員會宣讀完畢。第64案經濟母海維修陣抵押三項屬龍型感應電動機﹑安裝與特定設備之一附著能源效率基準、效率標示及檢查方式。程序委員會見議請回交經濟委員會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7366.963,"end":7376.501,"text":"無意通過。報告院會現在在議場二樓旁聽喜事。我們新竹縣物業管理服務職業工會的好朋友們在此熱情歡迎。"},{"start":7381.158,"end":7403.228,"text":"第62 農業部海委修正農業部農田水利署苗栗管理處農田水利事事範委陳秀陽會見臨時委員交經濟委員會區委員會第662 農業部海委修正陸域保育類野生動物名錄第三點規定非經主管金管同意不得買賣或在公共場所陳列展示之陸域保育類野生動物及其產製品之種類第三點規定"},{"start":7404.108,"end":7423.262,"text":"及適用野生動物保育法之人工飼養繁殖陸域野生動物種類第三年規定,陳秀燕會見臨時環交經濟委員會,宣讀完畢。第67案農業部人員修正公告美國德克斯洋失蹤,致公民原性交情流行性勞動非益群身處。陳秀燕會見臨時環交經濟委員會,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7427.165,"end":7444.68,"text":"第68二（農業部海外修正公告美國新墨西哥州自公民與新疆線流行性感冒肺炎去刪除。陳修緣會見你請回交經濟委員會﹖宣讀完畢。第69二（農業部海外修正限制輸出植物種苗或品香。陳修緣會見你請回交經濟委員會﹖宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7448.983,"end":7467.755,"text":"第七十二（就業部和維修生勾結中等校學校教師,解聘、補習品、提聘或自協辦法,承受委員會見例行會教教育及文化委員會,宣讀完畢。第七十一案（就業部和維修生校園報令防止轉折,承受委員會見例行會教教育及文化委員會,宣讀完畢。"},{"start":7469.256,"end":7469.776,"text":"無異議通過下議案"},{"start":7484.821,"end":7503.281,"text":"第73 交通部海維修正鐵路機車車輛解除規則第四條條文,程序委員會見你請回交交通委員會 宣讀完畢第74 交通部海維修正交通部鐵道局編制表程序委員會見你請回交司法及法制交通兩委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":7504.842,"end":7505.503,"text":"無異議通過下議案"},{"start":7526.101,"end":7546.02,"text":"第76案 衛生福利部海外修正 優先採訪身心專業福利經貨團體或庇護工廠生產物品及服務頒布 程序委員會屆理行會 交通社會福利經貨商環境委員會 宣讀完畢無疑通過報告委員會第77案至263案 請依序宣讀其中第88 93到95"},{"start":7548.422,"end":7548.962,"text":"162、165、202、204、205、216、217、221、225、235、236案國民黨團體改交審查"},{"start":7565.552,"end":7565.752,"text":"第77案、78、84到87、92、9397、99到110、112、116、118、122、124、133、134、143到155、158、159、161、"},{"start":7588.964,"end":7602.496,"text":"163、164、263案由臺灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查。宣讀後以上提案均改交相關委員會審查。其餘一案均照程序委員會意見通過。請問院會有無異議?"},{"start":7605.185,"end":7607.547,"text":"無異,我們宣讀後通過。請宣讀。"},{"start":7635.325,"end":7656.915,"text":"第101案及第102案前委員會。第103案至第111案經濟部。第112案至第116案農業部。第117案至第119案公平交易委員會。第120案至第124案財政部。第125案至第128案經由監督管理委員會。第129案行政院主席總署。第130案中央銀行。"},{"start":7657.395,"end":7680.752,"text":"第13議案教育部﹖第13二案局﹖第13留案文化部﹖第13青岸河南安全委員會﹖第13辦案集體﹖第13九案國內故宮博物院﹖第14領案局﹖第14三案交通部﹖第14四案集體﹖第14五案書委發展部﹖第14六案集體﹖第14青岸緊將員公共工程委員會﹖第14辦案集體﹖第14九案國家通訊傳播委員會﹖第15領案總統府﹖第15議案司法院﹖"},{"start":7681.312,"end":7705.334,"text":"第152案堅強原民署長。第153案考試原民署長。第154案局第15青岸保護部。第155案勞動部。第159案局第162案衛生福利部。第163案局第165案環境部。第166案局第193案內政部。第194案局第229案外交部。第23案冷岸強武委員會。第231案局第245案國防部。第246案局第249案國家發展委員會。"},{"start":7707.256,"end":7729.595,"text":"第二五零二具體二五三案公平交易委員會第二五零二具體二二六三案經濟部還為一百十三年度相關預算一百十二年度相關預算中央政府海空戰略提升計畫採購特別預算前瞻基礎建設計畫第四期特別預算一百十三年度中央政府總預算等預算決議分別解送相關報告宣讀完畢。國務院會第264案以下請一併宣讀"},{"start":7735.939,"end":7738.992,"text":"宣讀後均准予被查。請宣讀。"},{"start":7739.724,"end":7768.615,"text":"第二、六、四案之第二、七、三案為本院交通、外交及國防、司法及法治經濟委員會函。委員會交付審查數位發展部一百十三年度中央政府準算權益等案,願以審查完均。第二、七、四案及第二、七、五案為本院社會福利及衛生環境財政委員會函。委員會交付審查相關行政命令,均已於立法院職權行使法第六十一條鎖定審查期限。第二、七、六案為行政院函送本院圖文員全期等,鎖定零時提案之嚴處刑刑。"},{"start":7769.495,"end":7774.7,"text":"現在我們針對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續進行質詢在進行質詢之前我們先請秘書長報告各部會首長請假請醒請秘書長"},{"start":7791.264,"end":7804.42,"text":"報告院會,行政院來函外交部林部長嘉隆本日因公請假,由田政務次長鐘光代表列席。報告完畢現在我們首先請邱毅英委員質詢"},{"start":7831.195,"end":7831.516,"text":"請委員好"},{"start":7845.563,"end":7863.162,"text":"院長好,院長我們相識二十幾年齁今天應該是第一次有機會站在這個臺上跟您面對面的進行詢答那這個本來應該是要恭喜您的啦但是我覺得現在整個朝野的氣氛整個行政立法之間的這個劍靶弩張"},{"start":7865.825,"end":7890.673,"text":"也不應該特別恭喜您。院長我想請您看一下,這個行政院對於在立法院在5月28號提出的國會擴權的這樣的一個法案,行政院很迅速的就提出了復議。所以這個大概是你們提出來的七大原因。當然行政院也特別說明為什麼你們要提出這樣的一個復議案。"},{"start":7891.753,"end":7905.949,"text":"很清楚的這個國會擴權的法案違憲違法完全至愛難行而且未來很有可能讓人民必須擔負著他們無法預知的後果"},{"start":7906.83,"end":7922.639,"text":"所以面對這樣一個至愛難行的法案行政院當然可以提出幾個措施第一個當然就是復議這個復議案會在下個禮拜我們就要開始進行所謂的全體委員會院長你還必須到立法院來進行說明下個禮拜要進行表決"},{"start":7923.78,"end":7941.297,"text":"但是很顯然的其實如果我們大概可以預見這個表決的結果大概已經決定因為國民黨他們不會半夜良心發現因為國民黨他們受到的指令是來自於對岸"},{"start":7942.278,"end":7943.578,"text":"非常謝謝委員的理解在面對憲政機關的義務在有違憲、自在難行的法案"},{"start":7967.008,"end":7969.31,"text":"好,院長我感謝你有這樣的一個決心吼,雖千萬人無往矣"},{"start":7987.557,"end":8002.769,"text":"但是我必須提醒啊過去民進黨在執政的時期其實我們也面臨到很多政策上面的推動困難所以院長您大概還記憶猶新當初我們面對四大公投的時候"},{"start":8003.61,"end":8028.457,"text":"由整個行政院團隊帶隊下鄉包括立法委員包括行政院的官員甚至蘇貞昌院長我們下鄉辦了超過100多場的說明會讓社會大眾很清楚的知道這個四大公投在投什麼東西在談什麼東西對民眾的影響在哪裡對國家的影響在哪裡"},{"start":8029.497,"end":8048.562,"text":"那面對到立法院通過這樣的一個違憲擴權案我其實希望行政院長、行政院的團隊也應該要出面下鄉跟民眾面對面的說明你必須讓很多的民眾清楚行政院不是因為"},{"start":8049.602,"end":8068.567,"text":"啊我們表決不過表決輸人家所以我們才不執行這些法案而是你必須讓很多的民眾清楚的知道這樣的一個擴權法案違憲違法的地方在哪裡對民眾的影響在哪裡所以我在這裡很懇切的要求"},{"start":8069.847,"end":8094.93,"text":"行政院院長如果表決不過的時候在申請釋憲的這個階段這個過程裡面行政院應該走出辦公室應該走到市民走到國民的面前讓臺灣的國民很清楚的知道這一部違法違憲的擴權法案的不合理性院長您同意我的建議嗎"},{"start":8095.95,"end":8108.339,"text":"非常感謝委員的建議我們依稀記得四個不同意那個時代大概是有三個月的期間所有的聲音都跑出來所有支持的聲音都跑出來所有意見都跑出來"},{"start":8109.212,"end":8138.672,"text":"我們也知道那個時候帶動了整個社會的討論但現在這一次跟委員報告因為從開始提出復議案到下禮拜五的表決事實上只有不到一個禮拜的時間那當中我們有安排了相當多既定的公務行程行政院目前兩個事情要做我沒有要求你在這一個禮拜以內去下下我也知道你下個禮拜幾乎一整個禮拜都被綁在立法院裡頭我談的是復議案表決沒有過之後"},{"start":8139.312,"end":8141.754,"text":"我相信人類有高尚的心靈。我相信人類有高尚的心靈為正義的化身。"},{"start":8163.595,"end":8172.104,"text":"再加油 再努力如果 不過的話 院長我覺得這個不是開玩笑的我認為我們應該嚴肅的面對這樣的一個違憲擴權的議題我覺得應該要認真的去讓全體的國民知道這樣的一個違憲擴權的議題"},{"start":8180.894,"end":8204.578,"text":"那他的時間不會只極限說不會說我只給你一個月的時間去說明而是你們應該利用更多更多的機會去讓全體的臺灣國民知道甚至也要讓國際知道臺灣對於這樣的一個違法擴權法案的反對力量反對聲音這個我覺得都應該把它擴散出去喔好院長這個你應該可以做得到吧"},{"start":8204.858,"end":8225.24,"text":"好,謝謝委員。復議案是總統合可之後,行政立法兩院之間的這個互動。但是,如果是釋憲,那是全國人民對憲法再一次的認知。我想那個需要告訴人們是更多更強。我們一定遵照這樣的方式,這個方向,好好的跟人民來做訴求。"},{"start":8225.56,"end":8241.04,"text":"我認為溝通這件事情是很重要下鄉說明是很重要四個不同意那個時候其實很多的聲音對民進黨是相對不利但是經過一百多場的說明之後投票的結果完全是翻轉所以"},{"start":8242.199,"end":8265.691,"text":"我現在要跟院長您討論最近討論最多的是國土計劃法。國土計劃法按照既定的時程是要在2025年的4月就要開始準備上路但是現在呢多方反對的聲音尤其是對於農地的限制對於土地的限制這個聲音一直不斷的出來"},{"start":8267.736,"end":8294.667,"text":"這個院長我讓您看一下這個是盧秀燕市長他說國土計畫法上路之後農地就會被判死刑因為我們現在的農一到農五的整個土地的規劃依照現行的法令的規定民眾是不可以任意申請變更的他必須由縣市政府提出"},{"start":8295.267,"end":8295.327,"text":"是的﹖"},{"start":8318.866,"end":8344.022,"text":"謝謝邱委員的關心確實你講的沒有錯但是國土計畫法的實施第一個保障農民的權益不變保障合法的農地的使用的權益也不變好如果是這樣我要更進一步請教農一農二這些特定的農業區優秀的優良的土地能不能變更你們現在說可以縣市政府如果提出了"},{"start":8345.043,"end":8362.045,"text":"通盤檢討提出了變更計畫最後審決的單位還是在中央有沒有可能中央把它駁回這個就是現在國民黨的縣市長或者是很多的縣市長很多的農民在擔憂的地方到底農地是不是永久被鎖死"},{"start":8362.666,"end":8377.359,"text":"這件事情是事實還是造謠我沒有聽到行政單位對於這個事情很明確很明確的告訴大家而且這是未來會發生的事情喔所以大家當然先反倒去來看嘛第二項"},{"start":8379.708,"end":8406.001,"text":"國民黨的另外一位張縣長,我不知道他講的這個是事實還是造謠,所以我要請教你們。國土計劃法針對違規使用定定天價的罰金嗎?是嗎?完全相反,國土計劃法是針對只有兩公頃以上,它做的是非法的變更,而且呢,讓人家有重傷害或是致人於死的時候才有相當高的罰金,否則就是按照原來區域計劃法裡面的罰則進行。"},{"start":8409.523,"end":8428.858,"text":"來部長您看看我整理的這個表到底對不對這個表對不對如果說依照現行的法令現在的區域計劃法是不分情節一律把6到30萬未來你們是按照土地分區分類的使用有各種不同的裁拔基準所以"},{"start":8430.765,"end":8449.339,"text":"反對黨的縣市長他當然會拿你的裁罰基準最高的500萬出來講他就跟你講說你跟農民講說如果你違規使用的話你就會被罰500萬你就會被罰天價的罰金可是他沒有告訴農民的是有一些不同的裁罰基準嘛對不對所以剛剛那個講話"},{"start":8452.521,"end":8477.89,"text":"他一部分是事實,但是大部分是造謠,您同意我的看法嗎?是的,我想跟卿委員回復一下關於雲林縣政府的溝通,到目前為止我們已經有請他參加44場以上的這個溝通所以雲林縣政府他們的農業單位跟他經發單位都非常了解這個事實。好,第三個,這個比較嚴重啊,院長這個我就需要您的回答違規檢舉獎金制度"},{"start":8480.309,"end":8492.317,"text":"檢舉達人現在在馬路上應該是人人喊打。交通部過去的交通違規有檢舉達人的制度。所以我們把它取消掉了。那我們現在的國土計畫法裡頭還放著檢舉獎金制度。"},{"start":8496.67,"end":8521.55,"text":"我認為他是非常不恰當的其實行政院或者是內政部我們可以透過經費的撥補人力的撥補讓我們的人員可以加強茶器加強清茶或者是你們現在利用很多的空拍機其實都可以知道土地有沒有違規使用但是你一旦落入了檢舉達人的檢舉獎金制度的時候我告訴你"},{"start":8522.23,"end":8523.431,"text":"報告委員我始終一個想法"},{"start":8547.895,"end":8574.67,"text":"我們應該鼓勵人民互相關懷而不是鼓勵人民互相監控這句話當作我們的理念那政府應該加強的是公權力跟科技的方式來對不法或是違規的行為做檢測所以檢舉的事項我覺得應該再重新的檢討所以如果檢舉獎金制度願意來做取消的話我希望大家可以趕快早日來就這個部分來做法案的修訂"},{"start":8575.89,"end":8595.361,"text":"當然我們一直談到對農地的影響,院長我如果能夠請您到高雄來看看我們美農的特定農業專區,它是一個很漂亮的地方,它的農業生產包括農業的產值都非常的高,我相信全台灣有很多的農業專區其實是一樣的。"},{"start":8597.322,"end":8616.463,"text":"但是在國土計畫法裡頭我剛剛問到農一、農二能不能任意變更。你們現在說只要縣市政府提出來是可以,但是我對他是持保留的態度。未來不能變更的時候或者現在已經是被劃定在農一、農二、農三的這些農地。"},{"start":8617.404,"end":8635.607,"text":"我們是不是應該要給予這一些農地更多更多的對地補貼我覺得農民的土地過去可能可以變成建地當你變成建地的時候跟你在持實際耕作的那個土地價值跟收入相差是非常的大的"},{"start":8636.067,"end":8659.137,"text":"那如何在被劃成農醫的時候對農民來講我們其實給予他更多的關懷、更多的補貼。讓農民覺得我這塊地不是私地,我不是只能靠種番茄維生、種梨花維生。我們的對地補貼、我們的很多的補償機制是不是有辦法來提高來增加呢?"},{"start":8659.857,"end":8678.418,"text":"我跟那個委員說明齁就是當你國土計畫被化為農業或農惡的時候那未來我們的農業的資源的投入會更為強化特別是在基礎環境設施包括農水路的部分那另外對於農地的綠色環境的一個給付"},{"start":8679.315,"end":8698.509,"text":"那對於它栽植有機有膳的這些耕作模式的一個獎勵,甚至於有關於生態的獎勵、環境的獎勵,我們都會有更加碼的一個比過往更高強度的部分。請問你們要怎麼加碼,你們要怎麼做?過去比如說有領某一種幾副的,就不可以領第二種,那你們現在是要用推諜式的一個獎勵。"},{"start":8702.432,"end":8704.073,"text":"我真的覺得國土計劃法現在如果要倉促上路會引來非常多的怨言"},{"start":8726.56,"end":8754.583,"text":"我真的覺得跟民眾的溝通是非常的重要在還沒有完整的溝通之前我認為其實如果能夠緩一緩的話真的適緩責緣這個大家請行政院認真的去思考本席的建議以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝邱議員委員的質詢謝謝卓院長的備詢報告院會現在在議場二樓旁聽的是臺北市成功高中同學我們熱情歡迎"},{"start":8756.335,"end":8757.956,"text":"台灣未來的棟樑,熱情歡迎。接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢。"},{"start":8774.588,"end":8775.368,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":8801.175,"end":8816.322,"text":"委員長好恭喜你我們首先來看我們的孩子因為投資教育希望永遠在這是我非常堅持的一個理念所以守護學童安全校園我們看到目前在全國裡頭"},{"start":8817.523,"end":8832.199,"text":"大概有400個校園他急需要跑道的一個整修但是我們也看到也聽到賴總統說體育暨運動發展部他希望要明確來提出成立是不是"},{"start":8833.148,"end":8860.054,"text":"我們在努力也希望大院能夠協助一起來把這個組織法調整將來可以上路。組織法調整就表示說大家看到這個問題點是重要的那我們有共識喔所以我們看到呢如果說我們未來預計你將要編列200億的預算對不對好200億的預算但是我們看到你目前所編列的大概一年是兩億"},{"start":8861.254,"end":8877.927,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":8878.067,"end":8893.822,"text":"大概大小平均值來計算那你大概呢需要40億的經費那這個40億的經費呢你如果一年跑到你只有2億的話那你等於要編列多少年啊?你等於要編列多少年?等於要編列20年"},{"start":8895.183,"end":8895.203,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8922.915,"end":8923.316,"text":"這個狀況非常好!"},{"start":8939.362,"end":8958.671,"text":"國際到現在對於很多學校在興辦這個體育設施的更新當中過去一段時間我們用了很多的前瞻基礎建設但是也有很多應該是地方自治事項如果中央地方能夠合力來針對不同的學校不同的教育是體育設施能夠來分別來處理的話那這個時間會更短而且將來"},{"start":8959.811,"end":8987.205,"text":"在體育部成立之後我想我們會用另外一種視野跟眼光來看體育部相關的預算你希望時間更短你聽到本期的精髓如果一年只有2億的一個補助我們要400個學校要20年20年又有其他的學校又產生還是要有協助所以你聽到精髓時間要縮短所以本期具體跟你建議你應該要編列專案預算給校園操場的修繕你同意嗎"},{"start":8988.724,"end":9016.087,"text":"我們會看國家的財政狀況跟地方怎麼來配合。你同意嗎?是不是?往這個方向努力。往這個方向努力。小孩子體育教育的時候更好。你可以大膽一點的來說,你是同意的嘛。往這個方向來努力。大方向大家都會同意。好,你就說我們兩個在選打嘛。那你卓議員長我的解讀可以這麼說,你是同意我們要以專案的方式來協助這些操場的這個修建、布建。"},{"start":9016.567,"end":9018.549,"text":"謝謝方向同意,我也希望你去執行制。接下來本席請問你,因為目前為止我們的這個大安會裡頭告訴我們幼兒的學童"},{"start":9032.944,"end":9062.944,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":9063.605,"end":9079.827,"text":"十二歲以下的兒童呢我們每一年統計的數字我都不忍心史上的數字我不忍心講出來但是平均有超過25個兒童因為交通事故的傷亡所以這個問題"},{"start":9081.741,"end":9107.802,"text":"本席要見請卓院長,我們孩子都是我們的寶貝。我們要怎麼樣讓他能夠安全,尤其在少子化的現在。我們的數字是增加,你又不憂心啊?又不憂心?憂心。那既然是憂心了,我們就要好好的來把這些周邊來佈建好,好不好?應該加強就像剛才所說的數字年限,經費要增加,年限要縮短。"},{"start":9109.458,"end":9123.186,"text":"報告委員行人跟學童的安全我們會列為現在即將要做的工作當中交通部已經有一個相當完整而清楚的計畫如果容許交通部昨天我也本席也親自到交通委員會去"},{"start":9123.746,"end":9139.548,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":9140.049,"end":9158.867,"text":"接下來本席要請教立法院好不容易藍、綠、白的委員都同意。在前任的行政院院長陳建仁先生以及我們前任的薛部長魏吾普都同意。"},{"start":9159.548,"end":9185.353,"text":"而且預計要在今年編列預算編列明年度的預算所以你看到這個畫面很難得藍綠白全國家長聯盟共同來支持的這個政策也就是HPV的疫苗當時早期我相信邱部長早期也跟我們奮鬥到早期說因為經費的問題所以我們從國中的女生開始打"},{"start":9189.094,"end":9216.217,"text":"給我的一個條件我努力執行到位請主委聽清楚也就是說如果女生有達到九成那麼我們就願意將男生國中的男生也一起因為你只有單邊只有保護女生這還是不夠的所以因此在這個前任的行政院長跟我們前任的衛福部部長跟當時的邱這個現任的邱部長跟當時的"},{"start":9217.638,"end":9217.979,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":9238.496,"end":9265.91,"text":"我也記得陳前院長曾經提議答應說要延役當女生達到90%之後往男生這個在延役那現在所以現在就是衛福部會接續陳前院長這樣的決定繼續還在做一些就同意要編列預算男生一併打我們會成為一個非常光榮因為總統說了我們要有什麼呢我們要做健康憲章對不對"},{"start":9268.771,"end":9296.956,"text":"是的,健康憲章所以兩個議題請教大家有共識非常好也就是大家努力的成果我們女生達到九成以上的男生必須要執行之編列預算成為亞洲區第一個男女共打保護我們孩童施打HPV疫苗的先進國家所以我兩個議題請教第一個我們的健康憲章卓院長什麼時候會出來第二個我們的預算編列多少請教"},{"start":9297.622,"end":9315.658,"text":"第一個我們在健康臺灣的論壇當中已經講到深化這個健康臺灣這個議題當中健康現障是一個頂重要的什麼時候會出來衛福部剛接手的衛福部一定要馬上再進行相關的這個馬上是多久衛福部說明我可以讓邱部長您說"},{"start":9316.921,"end":9321.724,"text":"請告訴我時間好嗎?你預計你們的KPI什麼時候可以出來給國人報告?告訴我時間點好嗎?什麼時候可以告訴國人?"},{"start":9337,"end":9358.568,"text":"因為這個可能出來以後還要經過更多專家討論當然所以我只要院長我只要你告訴我一個時間點是年底還是第三季什麼時候可以出來讓國人了解報告委員這個我剛剛說過健康台灣的論壇之極全國所有的醫學的專家先做出這樣的結論出來之後這是一個非常審慎的工作"},{"start":9366.631,"end":9367.292,"text":"我報告委員一下"},{"start":9384.794,"end":9385.495,"text":"沒關係,我們做任何事情,卓院長。"},{"start":9399.91,"end":9421.929,"text":"一個月出來炒稿院長我謝謝你們我們一定要好好努力做但是我希望我們新政府做事情還是要有KPI的指標大概什麼時間會出來現在邱部長給我一個答案一個月內會出來炒案那炒案之後大概什麼時候今年年底會不會出來"},{"start":9423.769,"end":9450.761,"text":"我們就是要跟社會做對話我們努力努力讓他盡快的實現但是社會的意見我們要尊重好邱部長你有沒有設定你自己的KPI時間點我想健康憲章這個部分我們以前做過太多像每個地區也有健康像北投也有健康憲章部長你現在不是邱立法委員你現在是邱部長你想一想沒關係你書面資料給本席至少你回答本席"},{"start":9451.741,"end":9470.879,"text":"健康憲章的草案一個月內會出來好不好那接下來怎麼樣正式你再順便資料給本席那第二個議題HPA的預算疫苗男生的預算這4億多沒有多少錢請問編了沒編了沒部長嗯"},{"start":9474.279,"end":9483.832,"text":"現在那個我想非常感謝因為HPV對男生的一個預防請教你現在是部長請政策回答你編了沒預算"},{"start":9486.567,"end":9488.668,"text":"我們現在正在編你預算的當中我們會積極來研議"},{"start":9516.667,"end":9518.248,"text":"謝謝邱副長,我給你感謝。我們都是共同奮鬥,連卓院長當時"},{"start":9537.157,"end":9553.295,"text":"我們藍、綠、白都全部合作所以我們希望成為亞洲第一個先進國家男女共同施打你拼命點頭我希望你在編列明年度的預算甚至在今年你如果有預算就可以開始執行至少明年度的預算要編列OK嗎?"},{"start":9555.478,"end":9571.197,"text":"會執行吧?會全力來研議。全力研議,就是全力執行,是嗎?因為剛剛卓院長在你的屁股啊,你是在嚇死了啦。院長已經說了,照陳前院長的指示啦,他的指示你也參與到啊,對不對?"},{"start":9571.818,"end":9590.106,"text":"我們會造成監獄長此事言議,但是我剛剛跟委員報告,這要編的預算,我們現在不是我們編的,我們現在進到概算的程序,大家都去檢視。好,謝謝。舊副長,你聽到左院長的支持,我們務必要編,成為亞洲第一個,編出來之後預算通過,我們來開一個記者會。"},{"start":9592.788,"end":9614.606,"text":"讓臺灣在世界上的醫療能夠發光發熱,好不好?尤其在蔣海同,我相信你一定做得到的。接下來我們要談電的問題。電的問題,院長,我非常的敬佩郭部長。郭部長說,他講真心話,他說這個台電公寓上去博補他不太贊成。"},{"start":9616.295,"end":9635.656,"text":"當然他率性的這個回答所以我們現在目前大家都非常的支持郭部長因為郭部長他會講真話而且他是真正在解決問題他來自產業我們支持我們支持之餘還是要解決問題在賴總統擔任行政院長的時候他曾經說過了"},{"start":9637.58,"end":9653.491,"text":"他前天說過他告訴我們在2017年的時候他說2025年我們的能源配比再生能源20%等等等但是王美花部長告訴我們是跳票的所以我也在經濟委員會請教了我們的郭部長"},{"start":9654.392,"end":9673.387,"text":"我說,那我們現在怎麼辦?沒關係,你們承認2025年原先的能源配比是跳票的。我們積極趕快鼓勵再加油。這是我們非常誠意的鼓勵政府。所以再生能源的部分從20%你們預估要調降到這個15.5%。我們也都給予鼓勵,但是其中有一個問題。"},{"start":9680.595,"end":9695.266,"text":"也就是沒有加入AI訊息萬變我也感謝郭部長他願意在這個會期7月16日之前會給國人一個報告我們的需求電力因為原先111年所說的3045億度的需求度這個是111年因為112年還沒出來"},{"start":9703.376,"end":9731.957,"text":"那麼告訴我們是2027年的時候會超過會達到3045億度可是還沒有加入AI所以郭部長非常誠意的說給一點時間因為又加入了AI訊息萬變所以我非常的敬佩郭部長他的坦白而且願意面對問題解決問題所以有兩個議題要請教第一個也就是我們的能源配比"},{"start":9732.637,"end":9735.72,"text":"您的好朋友童子賢先生也說了如果沒有加入這個核的部分"},{"start":9752.859,"end":9753.019,"text":"請教院長。"},{"start":9770.336,"end":9799.067,"text":"第一個議題等一下請您尊敬的這個郭部長來回答。那非核家園現在依照我們的環境基本法我們還是要依法朝向非核家園。那要讓我們安全的供電穩定供電這是政府的要務。我們必須在這個安全穩定供電的前提之下發展更多的綠能。我們說展綠、蒸汽、減煤到非核這個就是步驟。所以本期告訴你賴總統擔任行政院長的時候跳票了。"},{"start":9799.787,"end":9820.286,"text":"我不希望你的回答你的宣布又是跳票人民騙一次就夠了不要再騙了那我們也願意因為訊息萬變所以我希望我們非常理性的討論我希望得到答案會不會調整非核家園如果AI的這個用電量"},{"start":9821.921,"end":9840.803,"text":"現在科技的進步有些事情在多少年前是難以預測的。但是我們的法律規定就是朝向非核家園進步。院長你是一個有能力的人不要再拿法律來搪塞。今天政府如果需要法律可以修。"},{"start":9841.872,"end":9843.072,"text":"那我們現在就請郭部長"},{"start":9868.665,"end":9887.641,"text":"報告委員我想這個大家關心的是說會不會缺電我先給你報告這個結論到2030年我們是不會缺電的那這個我們為什麼這麼講呢就是說我們已經務實的考量用電的需求那麼2023年到2030年我們這個需求大概成長700萬千瓦那我們現在的大型機組呢會競爭910萬千瓦"},{"start":9898.129,"end":9920.257,"text":"但就如您剛才指導的這個我們可能這個AI暴增所以我們現在在考量我們用280萬千瓦作為我們大概考量的一個標準那這個280萬千瓦要說一次跳掉這個機率其實是幾乎是等於零但是我們還是放寬了這個電的這個"},{"start":9923.274,"end":9931.612,"text":"容量所以我們有兩個方法第一個就是用這個除電除電"},{"start":9933.624,"end":9956.32,"text":"本市瞭解差端你的話。你要用ESCO的概念。對不對?你用ESCO的概念所以本市還是要請教您。您現在信心滿滿。我也期待在7月16日以前你告訴我們總電力以及你的能源配比。這個是我非常關心。也希望卓議員長到時候經濟部長所公布的不可以再跳票。我講會怕一片就死啊。"},{"start":9956.9,"end":9980.675,"text":"不可以再下第二次所以本下還在請教院長也就是告訴我們的2027年我們的用電是3042億度但是是沒有包括AI在這樣的一個情況之下我們年用電量是不是會提早衝破3000億度大約時間點或落點在哪裡現在111年度告訴我們的是"},{"start":9982.137,"end":9988.305,"text":"2027年那現在加入AI導入會不會提早衝破3000億度的需求量?"},{"start":9989.148,"end":10014.84,"text":"我們現在的需求生產量是2.2左右吧那未來我們預期整個工科技的發展會有更大的需要所以剛剛部長已經講到會要科技的儲能跟發展都能做得更多的預測所以換句話你這個回答也就是會提早衝破3000億度對不對沒有沒有你轉頭看看你的部長他一直在點頭一直轉過來你轉頭過去看看"},{"start":10018.121,"end":10030.234,"text":"所以我們也希望能夠為產業為民生用電安全接下來政見要落實處理式規劃臺中國立發電廠我們真的好辛苦"},{"start":10031.314,"end":10054.394,"text":"我們也為社會大眾貢獻良多因為我們當地的健康是我們的寶貝我們一定要好好顧著所以我要請教院長你提出的這個健康憲章我一直希望追出來也就是說中火陸續除疫的規劃是5年還是10年因為我們自己有一套的減煤每一年遞減"},{"start":10055.715,"end":10074.382,"text":"在臺中市議會通過的所以我希望政府幫我們規劃中火廚藝的規劃什麼時候五年還是十年你做一個完整性的然後書面資料給本席我們一起朝著這個方向讓我們臺灣的電臺灣的能源能夠更加的安靜"},{"start":10075.442,"end":10078.104,"text":"我希望縮短時間,你認同嗎?所以你把規劃給本席,好嗎?"},{"start":10101.645,"end":10106.115,"text":"我們會考慮到安全穩定供電那麼對環境的影響我們把它降到最低"},{"start":10107.076,"end":10108.677,"text":"民進黨的部分區的第二名沈博洋先生他說了"},{"start":10135.319,"end":10142.609,"text":"到底這是真的假的他說高風險族群包括在大陸做生意或者是大陸有來往的人院長這真議題假議題啊"},{"start":10146.263,"end":10174.466,"text":"這是真議題假議題這是一個社會在討論的議題但是到現在真正的結論還是在經過大家共同對事實狀況的研判對事實狀況如果依照沈博亮先生所說的那你走回內閣裡頭我會緊張你聽你聽我們的政府院長的先生沈先生他也在東莞做生意我們的郭部長他生意做得這麼好他也在大陸有很多的分公司"},{"start":10175.487,"end":10195.288,"text":"那如果照他的規劃裡頭 那我們國防會的劉主委 他是IBM這個專家在整個這個大台東地區大中華地區 他供應鏈他諮詢服務他是負責人類 那如果照他的說法 院長你也去過大陸兩三次嗎 是"},{"start":10196.483,"end":10201.53,"text":"對阿那這些都是危險分子欸高危險分子欸可以這麼認定嗎可以這麼認定嗎他是這麼說阿那他的定義是什麼"},{"start":10214.622,"end":10221.686,"text":"那一定是有目的有企圖心的特殊的行為,對國家造成傷害,它才會是我們應該去防範的潛在性的危險。因為他說高風險族群裡頭,你注意聽喔,宮廟危險最低,黑道、陸配在中間。"},{"start":10244.894,"end":10271.156,"text":"陳理長立委和大學教授是最高風險,你認同嗎?我尊重委員各種言論上表示出來的意見。你尊重他,但是你聽起來你認為台灣可以如此嗎?台灣有台灣的問題跟現象,因為台灣的民主可以這樣子說法嗎?我們有我們遇到的問題跟現象,那包括所有的國安團隊持續都在重視這樣的現象,我們的責任就是在防範讓它不會成為嚴重的威脅。"},{"start":10272.193,"end":10300.989,"text":"台灣當然是一個民主國家講什麼都可以但是如果危害任意的惡意的貼標籤會危害到台灣的民主也會危害到台灣整個的安全度你認不認同我們當然希望尊重每個人的言論自由之外尊重個別人的人權的保護言論自由的保護都要同時並進都要同時並進嘛所以院長你要小心喔因為這是你們貴黨的立法委員部分區的說的讓人民人心惶惶欸"},{"start":10302.941,"end":10328.896,"text":"你讓那些教授都人心惶惶,你看可以嗎?好,很慎重,所以我也認同你的很慎重,但是務必,務必不要再製造人民的恐慌,好嗎?所以我在一個結論,所謂的第五縱隊你的安心,所謂的第五縱隊在你目前執政的政府是沒有這回事,可以這麼解讀嗎?"},{"start":10330.029,"end":10333.473,"text":"我們有不同潛在的威脅但不一定要用這樣的名稱來涵蓋"},{"start":10335.438,"end":10336.018,"text":"接下來我要講的我們的產業"},{"start":10365.27,"end":10382.946,"text":"我們都非常希望臺灣一進棒的,臺灣的隱形冠軍太多了,臺灣的發明,臺灣的在全世界裡頭,不得了了,最近這AI進來這五個全世界的首戶前10名,都是我們臺灣,我真的感動得不得了,太光榮了,對不對?"},{"start":10383.663,"end":10409.072,"text":"完全對而且我們的中小企業也有相當的光榮感對我也給郭部長講我們除了AAA我們除了科學之外我們的中小產業台灣的產業是所重要照顧的院長對不對對不對我們的中小企業你連這個都不敢回答我們的中小企業在地的產業我們政府要全力的支持他們對不對院長院長"},{"start":10411.161,"end":10430.25,"text":"是我們不僅中小企業我們連中小微企業都不希望在這個AI轉型的過程當中受到傷害所以所謂的以大代小這個概念非常好那本集要請教我們很榮耀但是亞洲地區是我們科技創新最快的可是我們看到企業創投"},{"start":10431.496,"end":10450.003,"text":"他所發布的、執行長所發布的五個國家沒有我們耶!怎麼回事啊?有印尼、有越南、有日本、有韓國、有印度!不管人才!他都講別人耶!怎麼沒有講到我們台灣這怎麼回事?我們繼續努力啊!繼續努力有什麼方案?"},{"start":10451.533,"end":10452.774,"text":"因為這個國外的大廠來臺灣他是要用我們的人才"},{"start":10467.046,"end":10482.393,"text":"我們現在是說這個人才齁臺灣因為我們稍微……請針對問題郭部長你現在所謂的人才本席知道你說要培養20萬人然後18萬人是在工廠裡頭高階的你給他比例50%50%這本席非常清楚但是我要給院長講的是說世界的評比沒有看到臺灣"},{"start":10488.24,"end":10514.152,"text":"我很震撼我們這麼好怎麼會沒有我們的所以我請院長你要努力你要努力不要只有自嗨我們要努力好不好好不好一起努力一起努力接下來最後一個議題危險邊坡我們在陸續發生了這些事情從4級5級6級7級這些的次數我都不忍心講院長我請你"},{"start":10515.353,"end":10533.85,"text":"我請你組專案這是人民安全的問題這是人民安全的問題你必須要組專案去解決協助這些問題因為沒有生命什麼都不用講了一走過去癱下來完蛋了對不對我看到你臉慢慢的沉重起來"},{"start":10535.083,"end":10557.911,"text":"不會齁?那表示你有信心。看到這種危險的地方當然我們會感同身受啦。對。那至於具體的措施,交通部從過去到現在已經有相當的作用。對。朱部長,你也是專家。我希望我本席提出國土安全的問題,鞭破這麼危險。我希望你把書面資料給本席,你去盤點。因為我們經過921,我們的中橫還沒有通,我們都很緊張。"},{"start":10560.652,"end":10590.152,"text":"好不好因為中文通我們台灣全部都通這是務必要做的好不好針對包括像高鐵台鐵高速公路跟一般的省道公路有各種邊坡我們現在都有監測努力去做因為他的數字我不忍心講出來你把書面資料給本席院長最後一個功課給你本席在經濟委員會大任召委超失的檔案到昨天為止我們也到現場考察"},{"start":10591.018,"end":10593.059,"text":"謝謝楊卓英委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。報言後我們現在休息10分鐘。"},{"start":11028.848,"end":11035.247,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11138.899,"end":11144.002,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11207.475,"end":11209.919,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11268.226,"end":11280.835,"text":"報告委員會現在我們繼續開會林黛樺委員聲明上午表決與民進黨黨團意見一致列入公報記錄報告委員會現在我們請陳婷菲委員質詢謝謝主席我們是請卓榮泰院長還有文化部部長還有財政部部長"},{"start":11296.656,"end":11297.665,"text":"再請卓院長、兩位部長備詢。"},{"start":11311.292,"end":11337.842,"text":"謝謝院長還有兩位部長我想最近有人挑起了一個所謂天馬電台的議題這是我們地方的痛因為在102年我用了很多的心力然後透過質詢好不容易就是把我們中央電台的天馬電台移到包中電台這一塊土地就完全歸我們國產署所有"},{"start":11338.522,"end":11359.878,"text":"所以這盡了很多的力量在102年正式遷臺到包裝然後呢開始了所謂的招商最開始我們所期待的未到在這裡做一個所謂隱存的規劃他也有來也有來做說明我們滿心期待但是最後不見了"},{"start":11360.859,"end":11374.412,"text":"然後我們有所謂的沙崙隱藏也不見了然後這個衛島要移到後壁也不見了都不見了好再來又有所謂的這個明華園要來也不見了"},{"start":11375.39,"end":11394.433,"text":"也就是說在當時候招商必須負擔的相對價值他們要做的文化因為我們這一塊就是文創產業專用園區所以文化產業本身他必須投注很多的心力但是不一定所收到的效益是高的"},{"start":11395.074,"end":11420.636,"text":"但是呢,我們的相關單位卻要求必須要對等的回饋,所以沒有辦法達到。光所有來到我們天馬電台去做說明會在我們本院寮曹新公普安祖師鋪安周書陶井開公廳會啦,開說明會啦,都殺到啊,結果最後都不見了。"},{"start":11422.317,"end":11447.176,"text":"總共這樣子拖了到現在從102年正式遷台到現在就是一片的荒蕪這是我們的痛啊但是最近有人故意挑起說延旦13年延旦13年是誰延旦是地方政府跟中央政府因為是地方政府跟中央政府一起開發一起合作"},{"start":11448.609,"end":11448.629,"text":"再來﹖"},{"start":11477.679,"end":11492.73,"text":"我們必須說的現在土地經過了這段時間土地目前從台南市政府的管理單位原本是台南市政府的管理現在又歸還到我們財政部"},{"start":11494.128,"end":11513.41,"text":"關我們所看到的從106年看到衛德森這麼大的亮點不見了然後不斷的這樣子一個拖延明花園也是亮點也不見了到了107年最後由台南市政府來管理現在又歸還到我們的財政部好現在問題來了"},{"start":11515.013,"end":11533.245,"text":"現在我們要透過所謂的我們市政府安南區的溜通,要去做土地變更。我要拜託部長,全力配合。我們希望是整體開發,沒有整體開發,沒有辦法有亮點。"},{"start":11534.457,"end":11556.288,"text":"如何把土地規劃不論是商業區他未來怎麼去做一個所謂的亮點經營然後把土地有部分來到我們市政府做一些回饋我相信都應該全力配合市政府這個拜託部長OK吧是謝謝委員這個部分確實天馬電台這一塊土地有29公頃相當的大"},{"start":11564.656,"end":11565.54,"text":"那曾經國產署也跟"},{"start":11567.042,"end":11595.752,"text":"台南市政府合作就如同委員講的我們做合作的開發但是後來因為一直都沒有招到適合的一個用來做這樣的一個用途所以現在約已經結了交回到國產署那目前來說台南市政府正在通盤檢討看看這塊土地的都市計劃要做6通113年的6通我想我們就國產署來說只要這塊土地能夠更好的一個運用而且對地方的發展是有助益的話我們一定會全力的協助配合"},{"start":11596.312,"end":11617.962,"text":"我們希望財政部全力配合因為這時間實在拖延太久了我們不斷的催促然後我要拜託部長現在荒蕪一片現在雜草一堆我覺得應該在還沒有開發之前因為六通到底要到什麼時候才能有一個結果不知道"},{"start":11619.224,"end":11637.496,"text":"是不是可以先委由市政府我們絕對把所有的環境整理一下讓社區可以來使用這太大了這太大了你知道嗎這邊實在是有夠髒亂的這個我覺得你們要趕快去處理好這個部長再拜託一下那另外我們要再談到另外一個議題"},{"start":11647.011,"end":11661.976,"text":"我想國家語言法發展,整個在2018年12月25號三讀通過,這也是我們一直在推的。講台語啦,但是我們自己的母語,所以國家語言發電話在我們2018年12月25日三讀通過。"},{"start":11667.118,"end":11684.805,"text":"兩千公一九年七月七日（台藝台在公司正式來成立。我們現在要推的,我們今天要推的,就是《台藝文化恆久》。這對過去,我們都有一個進展,有一個補調。因為我們中華,剛好在一間館十八檔的時候,設立了《台藝文創藝恆久》。"},{"start":11693.311,"end":11694.771,"text":"我現在要向我們部長拜託"},{"start":11722.028,"end":11738.26,"text":"部長,我給你報告,因為台南沒有人比我更了解他的地理環境。我給你報告,第一,有人說天馬電台,但是現在天馬電台土地還是未成熟。他未來要怎麼開發不知道,企業要怎麼開發不知道,土地未成熟,因為這是國有財產局的。"},{"start":11748.172,"end":11752.216,"text":"臺南文化創意三頁風空．大地火車站的旁邊．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．�"},{"start":11774.298,"end":11778.356,"text":"我現在把整個所在社會可以設的 給我們補充報告"},{"start":11780.199,"end":11792.428,"text":"第三個地方有個地方叫臺灣的蘇博物館。臺灣的蘇博物館總共有幾公頃?20公頃。20公頃依靠著我們的志鴻池,還有我們的綠帶,還有日記、擴建的需要。其實在我們的土地建培喔,建培也只有5.5公頃。20公頃只有做5.5公頃。"},{"start":11806.769,"end":11829.162,"text":"但是這個部分我們如果要把它做為代議文化分區﹐可以跟它結合﹐立訴文化、文化跟結合﹐它會變成人說的結智啦﹐跟它立訴的、跟它文化的、跟它文化的都來到這﹐土地跟我們文化保衛﹐我們馬上變經濟就可以做這樣﹐這樣是不是很失動﹐因為這個部分我也跟市政府討論過﹐"},{"start":11836.752,"end":11838.296,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":11845.435,"end":11869.334,"text":"若通過後,土地國是價位,要如何價位我們不知道。而且最快的速度,我們如果看通報檢測,這議長就很了解了,議長也從之前起來了。通報檢測若要有結論,3、4天、4、5天,那算有夠快的了。所以你今天你要用一個主要通報檢測來做這個部分,未定數。"},{"start":11872.182,"end":11884.334,"text":"遙遙無期所以我跟部長建議臺語文化園區因為我過去在教文化園區我們就一步一步從我們的國家語言發展法到臺語臺現在時間夠了"},{"start":11888.738,"end":11890.899,"text":"部長,我覺得這是我們可以考量的地方。"},{"start":11915.7,"end":11930.23,"text":"尤其台、台域文化行政院跟我們台灣理事部文化的結合作會。甚至乎,在這裡,他是我們的盟民喔。我們的、我們的國道一路外,連有多個這個盟民,可以接來到我們的山海峻綠島。"},{"start":11932.262,"end":11934.103,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議臨時提案委員．完整會議"},{"start":11949.779,"end":11972.86,"text":"部長這才有意義啦對不對部長你覺得呢這個其實謝謝委員剛才講的那幾個點其實我個人就在安南區做千里步道剛才講山海郡就是我們發起作為一個千里步道的起點那你剛才講那幾個點我會在最快時間去看因為剛才講那個天馬天海那一區我沒有看過那另外這個"},{"start":11974.559,"end":11993.631,"text":"因為天板電台現在就是荒蕪一大片,30公頃的荒蕪一片。我承諾委員我會在最快時間去這幾個點看過以後,把它構想出來。因為土地最重要嘛,土地還沒問題,你給我做做經費嘛。你絕對不可以站一塊,我們完全不可以監控的地方,這樣整個做好了,搞不好不可以走。"},{"start":12000.478,"end":12000.498,"text":"委員長"},{"start":12016.705,"end":12039.907,"text":"謝謝委員對文化的用心跟設想了這麼多的地點那剛剛李部長也已經表示他會近期內去看看哪一個地方將來適合做什麼樣的使用那另外關於天馬電台現在如果這個土地這麼大那我們沒有辦法能夠即刻的活化使用情況底下我也要求財政部國有財產署"},{"start":12041.109,"end":12046.166,"text":"環境一定要整理好不要成為地方人民對他產生險惡的措施地方"},{"start":12046.667,"end":12075.816,"text":"我拜託這個天馬電台現在的髒亂一個月給我們答覆看怎麼處理。今天有人把這個桶再挖起來,那我們就直球對決啦。我們再拜託我們的部長。那我現在另外一個議題就是我們台61線我們的曾文熙跨海大橋如何銜接到86快速道路的部分。我想院長這個部分"},{"start":12076.756,"end":12098.651,"text":"一定非常重要,因為我們的責任在大橋,曾文熙大橋好不容易在林全院長,我當時有質詢他也是就在這個地方,當蔡英文總統第一任的時候林全部長在這裡,他馬上答應了曾文熙大橋OK,現在曾文熙大橋也在進行當中了。"},{"start":12099.471,"end":12117.799,"text":"現在負責大局,要來臨時86號,我們的快速道路,拜託我們的議長一定要加速,因為現在確實也在規劃,因為這個太重要了。如果可以銜接從外環道,這一條是比什麼都還重要啊。"},{"start":12118.839,"end":12147.23,"text":"這樣子根本就不用再把所謂的車子引流到我們的濱海那些濱海都太扯了如果可以從我們的曾文熙直接到86我相信這樣的一個變節還有未來我們要發展所有的科技甚至產業絕對就都沒問題了我們這裡有說有台南科工區還有新集工業區未來七股工業區還有南科"},{"start":12148.29,"end":12166.144,"text":"這一段對於這一條所謂的曾文熙大橋銜接86攜帶非常高啊。這部分我們有怎麼計畫要快速處理。報告委員這條長有47公里的重要的延伸道路現在正在聽取各方面"},{"start":12167.096,"end":12170.479,"text":"現在在做可行性研究沒有,現在我們知道現在在做可行性可是中間有很多的關卡包括我們過去的嫌惡設施"},{"start":12193.397,"end":12215.752,"text":"這裡有很多就是我們說的,我們為了要綠能的發電,這裡有很多,可是這些現在要怎麼突破?就是我們過去都沒有一體性的研究嘛,那這邊怎麼辦?現在這一個情形沒錯啊,預計要113年底要完成。好,我們會如同現在所做的,這個是我們地方一直在"},{"start":12224.266,"end":12225.328,"text":"八月份提出方案"},{"start":12234.254,"end":12261.888,"text":"八月份就會提出來了我們期待喔因為你們現在預計你們預計是在這個綜合規劃的時程是兩年然後二屆環評是四到五年喔然後建設計劃又一年喔你光這個你知道沒錯啊所以你前面路線如果拖的話後面就一直拖囉這個如果你們的時程表可能十天就看不到了"},{"start":12274.795,"end":12277.016,"text":"謝謝陳平飛委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請張家俊委員質詢"},{"start":12291.274,"end":12294.736,"text":"院長我想請卓院長再請卓院長備選卓院長好這次我們的AI行動內閣禁用了很多實務界的專業人士那各界呢也都很期待我們的內閣團隊是一個很接地氣的內閣那院長對我們的內閣有什麼樣的期許呢"},{"start":12314.994,"end":12337.132,"text":"謝謝委員對我們的肯定。當然你所說的我們有來自產業界有來自學術界也有原來在陳建仁院長時代留下來的幾位很優秀的部會首長我希望新舊之間盡快的融合我們跟人民展現的就是我們要用行動積極行動跟創新的理念將它放在我們對每一項所以我們說我們會到"},{"start":12339.373,"end":12364.574,"text":"發言問題的第一線解決問題的第一線也提出正確方法的第一線我們會努力讓自己在這個工作上做好自己應該有的責任本席也對院長所帶領的內閣團隊充滿了期待希望可以排除藍綠之間的爭議做一些扶國立民真正對台灣好的政策那我知道院長很少提到家庭不曉得院長當阿公了沒有"},{"start":12365.595,"end":12371.069,"text":"如果不想回答可以不用回答不方便回答可以不用回答但有一個趨勢我只是有老人卡而已"},{"start":12372.914,"end":12401.269,"text":"有一個趨勢要讓院長知道從2016開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如從這個臺灣的生育率有每況愈下從2020年開始我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如死的狀況每年以一萬這樣子的人口數下降這樣子急劇的下降那可以說是少子化變成一個國安問題為什麼年輕人不敢生院長知道嗎"},{"start":12403.794,"end":12416.832,"text":"有一些是這個社會環境的變遷,有一些是經濟的因素,還有很多就是生下來之後他的教養問題,國家還要持續的給他更多的協助。沒錯,院長講到重點,其實就是教養問題,就是經濟問題。"},{"start":12419.215,"end":12438.522,"text":"那現在行政院要推動托育政策2.0版但很奇怪的是少子化明明是越來越嚴重但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼還是抽不到不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反應過說欸怎麼辦抽不到欸怎麼樣都抽不到公幼有沒有"},{"start":12439.651,"end":12454.328,"text":"過去蠻嚴重那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩但是政府的各項的措施包括公托準公托的這個設施還要繼續的強化精進沒錯就是目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬佔比67.6%那讀公幼的"},{"start":12459.474,"end":12459.854,"text":"當然我們會持續的"},{"start":12500.022,"end":12516.934,"text":"是這個我們都共同的期待那在公幼銜接上需求之前本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助因為目前現行的育兒津貼而言第一胎每個月只有五千塊"},{"start":12517.654,"end":12537.619,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":12538.18,"end":12549.012,"text":"的這個補助來做修正來修正這個補助那當然這個物價指數大幅提高超過警戒值的時候希望我們行政院可以有所因應"},{"start":12550.326,"end":12567.797,"text":"報告委員,育兒津貼從創設到現在逐步有在增加當中,而且這個速度是考量政府財政的負擔。所以在這個情況底下,我們一樣的,當少子化的問題日趨嚴重的情況底下,政府的政府投資跟社會投資都會日益增加。"},{"start":12568.237,"end":12569.778,"text":"這是過程當中我們一定在財政衡量容許的範圍當中盡量鼓勵也盡量照顧。"},{"start":12583.021,"end":12586.202,"text":"謝謝院長。接下來院長最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展。國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻,尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠。"},{"start":12599.946,"end":12599.966,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":12621.186,"end":12649.275,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":12649.315,"end":12649.555,"text":"中科二期擴大"},{"start":12676.536,"end":12698.133,"text":"首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長他的喜愛夜市讓台灣的美食揚名世界那我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨漂亮而且衛生營養再就是輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況他已經接近相當的這個飽和之中了"},{"start":12698.573,"end":12723.604,"text":"那他會尋求各地方但是這個除了他公司的產業的布局選擇之外我們也希望他選擇台灣的任何一個地方我們都能提供最好的公共服務基礎設施的服務那但是這樣世界的大廠要選擇在哪裡他現在還沒有做明確的規定明示底下我們現在只能是等待他做好更多的地方的選擇跟調查"},{"start":12725.069,"end":12740.59,"text":"當然但是本席剛剛第二個問題就是說我們現在中科二期擴大現在沒有說現在已經拿到用水同意函用電同意函跟用地同意函已經進入到土地變更的這個期程在之前呢"},{"start":12741.35,"end":12764.91,"text":"經濟部是一直都非常支持目前需要農業部儘速地把變更土地核定下來我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速地來審查我們的土地變更案呢?初步計畫審查通過現在是取得用地的階段"},{"start":12766.972,"end":12786.869,"text":"用地已經同意了,我們已經拿到了臺堂的用地同意函。臺堂的部分沒有問題,現在是私人土地,那邊有一個高爾夫球場。我們沒有高爾夫球場,你弄錯了。中科二期在湖尾。我們全部都已經送到農業部,要等待農業部審查,所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。"},{"start":12795.374,"end":12817.95,"text":"農業部來說明跟委員報告就是有關於相關的這個專案如果說整個院的專案核定了以後農地的變更是一個程序我們一定會配合是拜託部長可以盡速的來審查完成因為這不只對雲林縣很重要對台灣未來的發展也很重要因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃但是它連結"},{"start":12821.852,"end":12849.699,"text":"這個保中土庫東勢整個台塘的農場1600公頃放眼未來50年假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續深耕在臺灣的話它上下有整合有充沛的土地包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫包括海水淡化廠包括我們有集齊蘭河縣的這些水我們有充沛的用水用電包括我們有充沛的這個太陽能光電跟再生能源等等"},{"start":12850.419,"end":12873.957,"text":"用水用電用地都沒有問題可以支撐AI產業跟半導體產業下一個50年在臺灣生根我覺得這可以決定未來臺灣在國際的競爭力所以很希望說今天院長帶領部長這經濟部長農業部長等等大家都在這裡希望你們可以大力的來支持"},{"start":12876.345,"end":12878.867,"text":"經濟部也是一樣,當然行政院長整合以後我們一定是全力支持。"},{"start":12897.602,"end":12907.172,"text":"謝謝部長。當然AI產業是我們重大的產業發展的方向。對於AI產業的發展,院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼?"},{"start":12911.93,"end":12933.677,"text":"應體的設施跟軟體的加強之外應該是要跟世界各個進步的國家跟廠商都合作但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才是人才是一個很大的就是需求那當然了用電上面我是說全國的這個用電上面也是一個很大的問題啊前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長就是說"},{"start":12936.638,"end":12938.379,"text":"院長,你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎?"},{"start":12957.874,"end":12978.949,"text":"國部長幾次談過臺電對現在用電的評估到2030前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕但是要針對高科技的發展現在政府更必須積極的去拓展更多的多元的能源包括我們說展綠發展更多的綠能才能夠滿足業界的需求"},{"start":12979.249,"end":13007.555,"text":"那至於這個細部的怎麼去規劃一些幾個工正在進行的發電機組的補上來這個都是經濟部台電每天在密切注意的東西是當然再生能源綠能這些本席都非常非常的支持我覺得這是一個全世界的趨勢但是院長有考過考慮過以核養綠嗎有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一核二把它重重啟呢"},{"start":13009.346,"end":13018.17,"text":"就是河山,因為河山今年就要除役了,那可能會有一個6至7%的這個用電缺口,院長怎麼看這個用電缺口?"},{"start":13020.168,"end":13040.814,"text":"我希望透過這個時間也向委員說明河山廠1號機今年7月2號機明年都會處理。對2號機明年5月17。現在現在我是說假設即使要研議的話我們要經過很長的安全檢查的程序。是。汰換箱裡面檢查出後的可能的一些機組的設備零件。"},{"start":13043.143,"end":13070.109,"text":"所以我們在三年半到五年當中河山廠的一號機二號機是不可能發電的所以五年後的問題它能不能發電還是個問題但五年後的狀況不是我們今天面對今天問題可以解決的這一點我也要提醒這個院長就是說其實我們的核能這個發電機我們的使用年限只有歐洲跟這個美國的一半"},{"start":13070.729,"end":13098.776,"text":"歐洲跟美國的使用年限是我們的一倍多所以變成是說其實它的使用年限是可以再增長的那為什麼我們不趕快把它檢查然後把它現在你就可以決定啊現在就可以決定關鍵的時刻是不是我們現在國家正面臨有可能要迎接AI產業高耗電的時間有沒有考慮說在綠能達標之前先用"},{"start":13099.617,"end":13111.83,"text":"這個核電來補足這個缺口呢?西部問題我請國部長再回答我只跟你們報告是40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了他的年限就是這個樣子"},{"start":13112.881,"end":13128.672,"text":"那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則現在我們要研議也要照核管法的規定五年前提出研議的準備那現在已經過了那個時間了就是希望說假設院長有這樣子的想法的話我相信不管是藍綠"},{"start":13131.013,"end":13147.71,"text":"白都會大力的支持只要院長願意我覺得修法的問題反而是次要反而是我們國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應這一點也希望院長可以記在心裡因為這個國家最有力"},{"start":13148.351,"end":13175.058,"text":"希望對國家最有利的這個方式我們可以回歸理性專業的這樣子的討論這一點也拜託院長記在心上那我想部長他是從產業來的他也一定會去做一個專業的評估這一點就拜託院長跟部長好好的思考一下因為本席真的不希望說我們臺灣的這個競爭力就錯失在我們的這個用電供應不足"},{"start":13175.618,"end":13193.286,"text":"部長常常跟我們說安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的我們一樣要把這個事情做好讓部長說明一下報告委員現在這樣就是說這個我們撇開這個法的問題來講的話現在那個核二核三他確實"},{"start":13194.522,"end":13214.444,"text":"你把它降載你一定要先停檢查檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟不能用有危險它是不能用因為安全是我們第一個考量那我跟委員報告就是說我們考慮之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象所以我們到2030年"},{"start":13215.905,"end":13241.02,"text":"所以是有考慮要重啟核能的,所以部長你現在是在告訴本席說其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案是嗎?我們什麼事情都可以考量,事先都可以考量,但是以目前我們是沒有辦法在2030年就是說在這個5年內是沒有辦法使用這個核能,如果它可以使用我們也沒有辦法使用。"},{"start":13241.619,"end":13257.158,"text":"這一點大家我們可以再好好來討論希望可以找出好的辦法因為這個缺電的問題其實是影響不只是產業也影響民生而且是下至每一個人民"},{"start":13257.679,"end":13281.715,"text":"然後上至整體臺灣的未來所以這一點希望說院長跟部長可以記在心上然後趕快的去面對這個問題而不是說粉飾太平說我們沒有缺電問題實際上本席看到的包括上一次跳電我們備載容量只剩下3%只剩下3%就要迎接全台大停電了臺電跟上一任的經濟部長還在說"},{"start":13283.536,"end":13296.03,"text":"完全沒有問題完全沒有問題甚至還一再的否認說他們有在準備就是要就是準備要跳電的問題我覺得真的是我們應該是"},{"start":13298.573,"end":13298.613,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":13317.867,"end":13336.071,"text":"但是呢,院長目前2025年國土計劃法就要上路了。雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一。請問院長知不知道國土計劃法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃嗎?120萬。但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地有多少嗎?8.9萬公頃。"},{"start":13348.031,"end":13372.986,"text":"是將近全國最高是全國化第一名的縣市而且雲林縣農一農二的土地合計8萬8千多公頃面積真的是超乎如果說以人平均這個農地責任額來說我們是臺北市的638倍您覺得這合理嗎?"},{"start":13373.888,"end":13394.117,"text":"所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣所以他的農地也多各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很我們的確是農業大縣但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊我們不想要說我們的農民變成世代農奴而且假設說種田"},{"start":13395.558,"end":13402.364,"text":"所以我們希望台灣均衡發展像剛剛委員所提到的在雲林那個科技園區的發展就是未來雲林再轉型但是雲林的土地當作農業使用它一定有它的傳統未來還是一定維持一定的比例的土地但是轉型的過程當中需要更多的協助"},{"start":13423.402,"end":13450.474,"text":"所以院長本席也想要提出就是說希望這個國土計劃法可以暫緩實施因為目前來說系部規劃不只是雲林縣全台灣很多縣市都有疑慮所以希望說可以把系部都討論完善之後再來實施因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良盡量按照這個國土署的標準"},{"start":13450.814,"end":13450.834,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":13471.954,"end":13474.695,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,您剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息喔,因為...你不要再說是我有誤解,來"},{"start":13491.597,"end":13515.655,"text":"這個部分是在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候,我們都...我們沒有誤解,我覺得是你行政有偏差,院長你同意他這樣說嗎?報告委員,在農業發展地區,我們依照他的國土計畫...屏東也是啊,屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊各個縣市應該都是標準一致,不會有特定讀後來的縣市就是這個公文來說,就是院長"},{"start":13516.916,"end":13538.149,"text":"包括部長他本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的這個權限但是針對我們要劃設農惡的部分才1500公頃這回函裡面說因為沒有通過審查會議所以無法作為劃設的依據不准我們將交流到附近的這個區域劃成農惡而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的"},{"start":13539.73,"end":13551.218,"text":"那這些就叫做尊重地方畫色的權限嗎?不能理解的是,這是在細部規劃都沒有明確之前呢?為什麼要著急推動啊?可不可以緩一緩呢?"},{"start":13551.857,"end":13554.419,"text":"國土計劃法的實施對於農民的權益還有農地的變更的部分的完全沒有改變所以說核保的農地的保障這個我已經聽過部長講了好幾次其實我也好奇說部長說你對於說農民的權益沒有改變"},{"start":13570.734,"end":13572.995,"text":"我現在要求的就是說標準全國要一致。你所提到的屏東縣政府在24年前的法律。因為雲林縣"},{"start":13597.302,"end":13597.722,"text":"我跟你報告齁"},{"start":13613.912,"end":13635.946,"text":"因為現在目前是縣市政府主導做規劃的那縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會我們都會去參加而且會表我只希望說一句就是說不可能那麼巧吧不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農二的標準吧報告委員你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律所以呢我希望說部長不要再讓我誤解院長你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳這個區分圖嗎"},{"start":13642.33,"end":13664.927,"text":"目前就我們所知道大概只有四個縣市政府是有困擾的,所以是只有三個,目前只有三個繳交區分圖,期限是6月30以前,為什麼大家都不繳?因為明年就要實施了全國只有三個縣市繳,院長可不可以延後實施呢?有沒有考慮要延後實施呢?"},{"start":13665.347,"end":13666.589,"text":"基本上呢我不是不理解說內政部長也很努力"},{"start":13682.39,"end":13685.995,"text":"但是呢我真心希望說我們不要急救張我們不要急救張我們不是在找你們麻煩我們只是希望說這件事情的實施不要造成民眾的困擾如果可以"},{"start":13698.61,"end":13722.174,"text":"在審慎的研議你緩一緩就算你緩一年緩兩年我們再把它討論得更周延一點對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸你不會說實施了之後你有問題一堆所以這一點我真的是要特別也要拜託院長拜託部長可以體諒說民眾就算他知道"},{"start":13722.694,"end":13722.834,"text":"委員 報告"},{"start":13741.061,"end":13747.509,"text":"話為農業發展區的部分,他只要從事農業,權益完全不會變。而且更能享受更多的...到底哪裡不會變呢?是不是可以邀請兩位部長到我們雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢?因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變"},{"start":13755.057,"end":13757.879,"text":"跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。"},{"start":13773.191,"end":13800.325,"text":"部長,你們兩位部長來說明好不好?你們兩位部長親自來說明,我相信你們一定有辦法把它好好一一的說清楚。我本席沒有反對,我只希望說在你們說明白之前可以暫緩實施,好嗎?我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民的權利受損的是哪一些地方。因為我的時間有限,我的時間有限,我是不是可以邀請"},{"start":13801.865,"end":13810.367,"text":"院長你可以指示兩位部長到雲林來說明會嗎?我們可以把所有的村里長啊,所有的這個農會啊,所有的這個農民代表都邀請來好好的對他們說明清楚這裡嗎?謝謝,那本期還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念喔。"},{"start":13824.071,"end":13840.957,"text":"就是說在這個國際上已經行之有年而且是廣泛實施的一個制度化的概念這是源自於英國發展權轉移的一個概念Transfer Development Rights在美國馬里蘭州甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度"},{"start":13841.317,"end":13866.852,"text":"那簡單來說就是說某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額那就必須要給予相對性的一個補償以兼顧農地所有權人的權益這才是發展農業的這個長久之計那在巴黎協定當中以開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償也是類似的概念不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣子的一個概念"},{"start":13868.017,"end":13889.613,"text":"農業部已經實施一段時間的對地的綠色補助就是朝這個方向這個理念在進行就是部長想的跟我們所提的這個農業權的概念是有一點點不一樣所以這一點本席也希望說目前我們是有提出一個方案就是每公頃40萬的這樣的補貼但是細部的部分"},{"start":13892.895,"end":13893.656,"text":"跟委員報告一下"},{"start":13916.076,"end":13930.067,"text":"國土計劃法是讓全國的土地有效合理的去運用,所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一次,我們不會讀後哪裡。再來就是它如果真的有需要5年還是可以再檢討的。"},{"start":13930.948,"end":13932.729,"text":"這是我接下來要講的有關於這個院長在說AI創新之上要加上民主元素要做一套這個民主"},{"start":13952.276,"end":13980.771,"text":"沒錯,AI不能去侵害人權對,可以看出院長想要傳達出行政團隊對於民主體制民主原則是非常尊重的這是我們共同追求的目標沒錯,但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法了如果民主的反義詞是極權呢那我們現行的才化法就是一個極權的才化法為什麼這麼說呢因為我們上一次修法呢就是25年前"},{"start":13981.732,"end":13983.372,"text":"中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各地方去"},{"start":14010.325,"end":14011.486,"text":"有人有錢嗎?可以做事情。"},{"start":14034.127,"end":14041.918,"text":"所以非直轄市的問題非常嚴重所以我們要開始來規劃財政收支劃分化"},{"start":14044.864,"end":14064.534,"text":"是,所以呢其實當初的賴慶德市長跟賴慶德行政院長他是非常體恤民情的我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣的當時您是擔任行政院秘書長您應該也很清楚他就是苦民所苦的這樣子的心他也是支持地方自治的是不是?"},{"start":14065.194,"end":14092.134,"text":"所以當時沒有辦法繼續走,就是因為垂直分配水平分配的問題。但是即使在那個之後,中央對地方的各項補助,包括長照,包括全災,包括總統分配款。所以你還是在講一個極權概念嘛,就是說中央要去補助,為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢?因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊。對於中央極權的這個概念,為什麼要把這個"},{"start":14094.636,"end":14098.197,"text":"謝謝張家俊委的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止。我們下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢。我們現在休息。"},{"start":14262.995,"end":14264.155,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14443.439,"end":14446.698,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14690.026,"end":14691.783,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21403.763,"end":21405.435,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21545.725,"end":21547.892,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21637.588,"end":21652.08,"text":"報告委員會現在我們繼續開會在議場二樓旁聽的是新店高中的同學我們掌聲歡迎台灣未來的主人翁接下來我們請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":21681.796,"end":21684.838,"text":"謝謝主席。我們有請卓院長。麻煩請卓院長備詢。張文豪。院長好。就是說,院長首先請教你一個有趣的問題。就是說,院長你小時候喜不喜歡玩啊?對不起。院長你小時候喜歡玩嗎?"},{"start":21707.697,"end":21735.47,"text":"玩喔?對,小時候。當然你喜歡玩啊,現在也喜歡啊。現在也喜歡喔?那為什麼你喜歡玩?玩給你帶來什麼樣子的感受?快樂。快樂,對不對?好喔!其實啊,遊戲啊,可以帶來,在佛洛伊德它是說遊戲是對應社會壓力的一個安全閥門。就是說它其實就像它帶給我們多的快樂,非常的開心。那不過也非常多研究也告訴我們說,玩不僅只是開心而已,它也帶來很多身心健康,是對兒童的發展非常重要的一件事情。"},{"start":21736.124,"end":21760.798,"text":"但是大多數的大人不了解所以我今天會花一些篇幅來做個說明首先我先讓院長來看一下我們現在孩子遇到的一個困境就是說現在的孩子自殺率跟智商率是節節上升那最主要的壓力來源是來自於精神疾患可能是焦慮憂鬱然後我有一些是學習網路等等的那當然也有家庭的關係那再來再讓院長看一個可怕的數字"},{"start":21761.118,"end":21788.936,"text":"就是說在我們的早療人口呢其實我們的早療人數在今年屢創新高已經突破了10萬人那同時呢我們的孩子過胖的問題跟相比10年之前也增加了2到4個百分點等於是說我們的肥胖的人數是越來越多了同樣最新的這個月的親子天下他做一個針對五年級到國中的學生做一個調查每10個孩子就有3個孩子害怕失敗"},{"start":21790.097,"end":21816.557,"text":"院長疫情結束了白宮百業都在慢慢復甦了但是我們孩子的身心健康卻是逐漸的惡化現在孩子生的這麼少那我們是不是能夠一起努力把每一個孩子都顧好推百萬不來講我們要講AI這件事情但是沒有人也是往來所以院長你認為我們是不是應該為孩子的身心健康來一個校正回歸"},{"start":21817.905,"end":21839.905,"text":"當然委員報告這個疫情之後不僅是經濟要復甦人跟人之間的往來也歷經了一段幾乎是比較隔絕冷漠的時代是從成人到小孩都歷經這個時段對說成人可能心理上的建設比較強一點但小孩子經過那一段對他以後的會發展我們應該施予更大的關心跟協助"},{"start":21840.225,"end":21865.947,"text":"同意因為孩子的身心健康跟環境跟時間都非常仰賴政府的一個政策以及大人的一個態度所以我剛剛講的這些問題其實全世界都面臨一模一樣的問題所以不管是每個美國的小兒科醫學會也好或是那個聯合國或是各國都有相關的醫療的研究來告訴一個很重要的解方一個早期介入早期預防的解方其實就是遊戲就是玩"},{"start":21868.251,"end":21881.237,"text":"我這邊引用了一下世界經濟論壇他講了一句話叫做遊戲帶來心理的韌性那不僅只是心理韌性他也可以發展情緒智商啊解決能力啊創造力啊這些都是"},{"start":21882.136,"end":21898.438,"text":"未來五年,非常重要的工作技能,還是非常重要的軟實力,對應到我們現在要發展AI,所以如果我們可以把孩子的身心打底顧得好的話,我們不僅是讓他可以健健康康的長大,我們還可以為國所用。"},{"start":21898.999,"end":21925.109,"text":"好,所以這件事情是非常重要,所以要玩一定要有時間跟空間。那去年的民間團體做了一個訪談,我想這倒不意外,小孩自己說了,這30個小孩說下課放學跟假日其實我都沒有時間有戲啦,因為我可能都要寫功課啊,老師有時候會玩,會有很多在週末連假會有更多的作業。然後小孩甚至說了一句話,他說我的上班時間比我的爸爸媽媽還要長。好,那"},{"start":21928.297,"end":21940.95,"text":"那小孩也有說就算是下課老師可能也會叫他去跑步跑操場因為要完成一項作業叫做SH150所以就變成說小孩其實根本沒有時間玩那再來呢運動場地"},{"start":21944.008,"end":21966.894,"text":"空間的部分我們從奧運的項目這是奧運的項目我們可以看到他年年都有新的項目所以等於是他推陳出新持續的去貼近青少年的一個喜好可是我們現在給的場地大多還是籃球場、操場這些東西我們可以從事多元的活動項目其實是非常少的所以非常需要政府有計畫的來推動新增新興項目的兒少活動場域"},{"start":21970.469,"end":21980.158,"text":"其實我們也做了非常多事情,衛福部在2018年其實有因應肥胖推出一個全民身體活動指引,教育部也有推出一個剛剛講的SH150,所以要激發兒童的運動興趣、動機,每週應該要達到150分鐘的遊戲活動時間。"},{"start":21990.208,"end":22012.902,"text":"可是我們可以看到左邊這份報告由臺灣體育運動大學及中興大學在近期發表的臺灣兒童及青少年身體活動報告書他顯示的是什麼我們跟2018年比做這麼多事情我們的身體活動量還是不及格的還是一個F等級跟世界組織要求的每日運動時間只有百分之不到20的青少年可以達成"},{"start":22014.741,"end":22043.72,"text":"我想這些方案我們都執行了那麼久還是沒有成效我們是有必要做一個全面性的檢討那今年呢這是第一次聯合國他串聯了140個國家要來通過這個6月11號為國際遊戲日他其中強調4點呼籲政府來優先來做來達成這個NSDGS相關的成果第一個就是遊戲式親子教養學前教育還有保護兒童遊戲空間不受氣候政策影響等等整合性的遊戲式教學"},{"start":22044.861,"end":22065.468,"text":"那我想要請教院長的就是說許多國家其實都有一些本土的遊戲研究或是一些研討會但台灣是非常缺乏的就我所知最近一次辦的還是民間自己發起的所以我想我們剛剛看了這麼多身心的問題那我們是不是可以來要求衛福部"},{"start":22065.828,"end":22067.429,"text":"謝謝委員我們知道委員常年在推動特色公園也因為這樣得到社會很大的肯定那個就是一個在地的"},{"start":22094.227,"end":22110.269,"text":"小朋友的遊憩場所能夠讓他在一個在地環境裡面成長的一個很好的一個設計那將來我看委員現在提出來這些問題是把它升級成為一個更多元更國際化更心理層面的"},{"start":22111.03,"end":22131.604,"text":"那這個部分我想在對小孩、小朋友的這個心理的輔導我們也一直要加強那如果能夠遇這個是輔導娛樂那能夠讓他產生更好的效益是不是請衛福部啊能夠來提提現在他目前已經在進行的相若干的計畫是的報告委員那我想"},{"start":22133.401,"end":22151.87,"text":"國民健康署非常注重兒童的身心健康我們的心理健康師也一直在推相關的一些活動成效都相當的好在健康未來健康臺灣的一些策略裡面也特別到小孩子的心理跟社會素質的一個學習"},{"start":22154.315,"end":22182.128,"text":"那我相信這個都跟委員在...抱歉部長我打斷一下就是說我知道我們有做這些兒童健康但是坦白說我們其實都是從身體活動來說我們並沒有從遊戲這個角度來切對所以我才會說因為其實我們對本土的研究是相當相當的少現在即便是民間的社團引用都是國際研究的數字所以我們是不是可以有一個本土性的研究好瞭解我們台灣兒童的遊戲的現況跟困境然後來制定一個相關的遊戲級的國家級的一個遊戲政策這部分是可以的嗎"},{"start":22184.079,"end":22209.918,"text":"我們也可以請教育部再說明一下他現在目前部裡面的計畫謝謝委員的一個提醒我想我非常同意委員所說的就遊戲玩性太多的國外的一些研究的證據包括國內研究證據也都支持它是有助於兒童的這個想像力創造力的一些提升包括再透過遊戲能夠有很多的遊戲規則環對所以我想"},{"start":22213.3,"end":22241.901,"text":"有一個更清楚的這個兒童遊戲一個政策這個研究我想我們很樂意來進行所以是由教育部來執行這個計畫嗎?沒有問題好 謝謝教育部部長願意承擔這件事情來做這個國家級的研究跟相關的政策所以這部分的話我們後續再追一下部長這個相關的時程那再來就是說我們剛剛講了時間那再來就是空間這件事情上面不是跳舞業幫我回到上一頁好嗎?"},{"start":22246.088,"end":22269.626,"text":"那就是我們在時間上面其實我覺得我們需要發起一個叫做跨部會的合作跨部會一起來支持例如就是說因為其實剛剛講了就是時間空間之外還有人家長可不可以支持所以目前的話我們是不是可以一起來做很多事情讓家長一起來支持就例如說早試習的時間是不是可以鼓勵小孩來遊戲而不是考試"},{"start":22270.026,"end":22297.449,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":22297.871,"end":22322.017,"text":"第三個部分就是我們的公園我先講一下經濟部好了經濟部的部分我們是不是可以來講說如果他今天企業做了一些支持兒童的遊戲支持兒童的政策的話我們可以把它變成一個ESG的一個指標一個納進這個成果的一個積分指標這樣這是可以的嗎我剛講這三件事情衛福部、教育部、內政部"},{"start":22323.63,"end":22346.354,"text":"委員建議的這是一個很好的方式,我們也鼓勵企業多多來對社會做更多的社會的投資,那這一點剛好也是可以把它納進來,我們好好的來研究。那院長不好意思,我們是不是可以有一個跨部會的平台呢?就是讓它實際的可以去,不是只是我們講講就好,而是可以實際的去稽查監督呢?我們可不可以成立這樣的跨部會的平台?"},{"start":22347.486,"end":22362.621,"text":"我是不是剛剛這個教育部已經有計畫在進行,我請教育把計畫能夠再精密的這個設計出來,那將來一定會有一些跨部會的合作。我們那個時候再來想用什麼樣的機制,或者透過什麼樣的會議來把它形成更完善的這個體制好不好。"},{"start":22363.362,"end":22364.042,"text":"內政部內政部"},{"start":22382.113,"end":22388.816,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分我們是不是應該要來好好處理尤其是說在公園的圍管上面我們常常遇到一些人力物力、圍管工法的困難可是現在無人可管"},{"start":22406.503,"end":22426.478,"text":"現在沒有一個組織單位可以管,就是在我們的組織法以前我們在以前舊的版本我們是有市區公園的建設在裡面可是新的組織法裡面公園卻消失了可是沒有一個組織機關到底誰來訂立一些相關的指引跟規範這是對地方的公園進行一些督導這是現在是"},{"start":22427.819,"end":22431.363,"text":"是不是可以請院長來請內政部是要來提組織法修法還是說在修法過渡期間我們可以由內政部來擔任主管機關?"},{"start":22440.416,"end":22468.592,"text":"是的,我們也發現到剛剛委員所提到的城鄉的落差,均衡臺灣到現在還是一個相當要努力的方向。所以我們在提出均衡臺灣在地希望,希望把所有的水平都往上拉高。那公園的主管,我記得以前台北市政府還有公園路燈管理處。對。現在可能沒有一個很適當的主管機關,是不是這個意思?是中央的部會,中央部會沒有。應該也是有,地方政府應該是有的。"},{"start":22468.672,"end":22485.824,"text":"地方政府是有可是變成是中央是沒有人去來協助地方做這件事情所以變成是說地方就自己做自己的有問題的話他們也不知道到底可以請教誰所以才想說是不是可以請內政部來在這個修法期間因為過去也是由內政部來管嘛我們現在是不是可以請內政部來持續擔任這個主管機關"},{"start":22487.566,"end":22504.948,"text":"謝謝院長。章委員非常注重這個特色公園的建立。目前所有的公園除了國家公園是由我們內政部來主管以外,那其他的縣市政府來主管。那他們在推動的過程當中包括建設有督導的事項的話就由我們內政部來幫忙督導。"},{"start":22505.768,"end":22535.408,"text":"OK好謝謝喔謝謝謝謝部長喔那再來喔就是說我想接下來討論一個轉型正義的議題喔轉型正義目前我想之前今天早上才過了這個黨產條例要送這個委員會來討論喔但是我對卓院長還是非常有信心喔因為院長過去也曾經在2020年擔任民進黨黨主席的時候也有說過這只是個起頭我們要持續的努力的來做那接下來就是促轉基金這件事情喔目前的使用還是由各部會自己來做一些使用"},{"start":22537.068,"end":22561.874,"text":"但是呢...抱歉上夜跳掉了抱歉就是說我們在想是不是可以仿造東德啦或是族群和諧基金啊我們可不可以有更一些創意的做法讓民間的創意可以進來這件事情是不是可以因為像東德的做法非常的多元嘛那我想我們也必須要讓大家來了解人民是一起來參加這個轉型正義的行動"},{"start":22562.834,"end":22588.453,"text":"例如上個月,我們的很多的民眾來全臺灣發起了這個青鳥行動。我想這個青鳥行動,它是代表的是我們過去的民主前輩的努力、奮鬥,在每個人的心上扎了這個自由的根。所以才會讓大家遇到這樣子,憲政體制要被崩壞的時候,主動的站出來捍衛我們的臺灣人權,捍衛臺灣的這個體制。所以我認為青鳥行動不是偶然,是一個必然。"},{"start":22589.073,"end":22600.738,"text":"所以我們就必須要繼續做,所以不曉得是不是可以邀請人權,呃,行政院來當,來研擬這個促轉基金,益助民間的這個機制,讓我們的民間可以公司協力,讓這個民主人權可以更加的活化。"},{"start":22606.101,"end":22632.261,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":22637.918,"end":22637.938,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":22662.93,"end":22671.388,"text":"這是兒童遊行宣言這是兒童遊行宣言他們講一些心聲那我也希望會代表兒童來送入你們的院長讓他瞭解他的過於進展"},{"start":22690.939,"end":22691.76,"text":"謝謝蔣曉琳委員,謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第38號,邱振軍委員質詢。"},{"start":22718.801,"end":22722.026,"text":"主席好,我們有請左院長麻煩再請左院長備選"},{"start":22731.355,"end":22751.53,"text":"委員長好我看了您的這個施政方針第一頁我覺得滿感動的您說將秉持誠意溝通人民優先展現解決問題的誠意與決心未來哪裡有困難您和行政單位就會到哪裡去哪裡有問題我們就想辦法解決問題"},{"start":22753.231,"end":22780.278,"text":"當然我看到是非常的高興我們有這樣的一個院長希望接下來我們的對話您能秉持一貫的態度來解決人民跟地方的問題我想請問一下我們院長賴清德總統在選前講過要把苗栗變成科技大縣因此國發會也配合推動桃園株苗大細股計畫的一個推動方案"},{"start":22781.072,"end":22810.553,"text":"我們看到在方案簡報中苗栗的水電都是規劃要往新竹送對吧?是那我想要問的就是說在苗栗我們整個產業園區擴編1203公頃的計畫中苗栗縣只有145.6公頃大概只佔了九分之一那我想請問院長就是水寄來是從苗栗水電都是從苗栗送過去那為什麼要捨禁求援"},{"start":22812.064,"end":22831.336,"text":"國發會關於這個桃竹苗大細股的推動方案這已經是跟地方政府在協調當中我們希望他能夠早日的落實那具體在實現這個過程國發會有他目前的工程的進度跟計畫"},{"start":22832.722,"end":22851.528,"text":"我們去年3月就,今年3月就開始有提到這個嘛,你們也到苗栗縣政府過來,那實際上我們竹南有300公頃,還有投奔330公頃,還有厚隆的330公頃,那總面積是960公頃,我想請問一下,那目前的進度,這些會列入這個計畫裡面嗎?"},{"start":22854.708,"end":22877.183,"text":"跟委員報告一下,兩個點,第一個現在這個是在明年的預算,所以我們還在院的審議當中。所以苗栗有沒有機會,剛剛我講這些有沒有辦法?第二點我補充說明一下,在這個計畫裡面對於土地的使用,我們當時有一個原則是滾動式的調整,如果在整個運作過程中,"},{"start":22877.944,"end":22878.504,"text":"好的,這個我們可以來研議另外"},{"start":22906.738,"end":22934.661,"text":"我想請教這個我們談到產業園區的部分那包含了土地變更的需求產業儲備用地要納入計畫裡才能按照國土的功能區分調整為城鄉發展區第二類之三及都市計畫農業區辦理變更產業園區這些都需要時間也需要中央跟地方配合才能撞到雙贏像這些沒有劃進去的話以後後續變更就會非常的麻煩"},{"start":22935.748,"end":22960.906,"text":"那近期我想國土計畫很多縣市出現了很多的聲音,我也接到很多澄清,尤其對於農業縣來說影響最大。這個部分黨派,很多民進黨的委員我想也一直為地方來發聲。尤其在苗栗縣,苗栗縣有水庫,本來開發就受到很多的限制了,現在又因為山坡地比例高很多,土地都會化成這個國土保育區。"},{"start":22962.143,"end":22984.58,"text":"舉例來說,我們濁南鎮、麗溪坪、大湖江麻園、休閒農業區本來就是鯉魚潭水庫周邊,飲用水的水源保護區裡面。那被劃進國土保育區之後,原有的就有農地的資材室以後萬一被檢舉,他們要怎麼樣申請合法,可以申請合法嗎?"},{"start":22987.089,"end":23009.085,"text":"今天很多的委員都一直很關心國土計畫法的相關問題,我們答覆很多次,是不是請部長再重複一次。我跟委員報告,就是有關於被化為農一農二的部分,那如果從事農業的部分,那從事農業它相關的必要的附屬設施都還是根據現在的規定去做,並不會有任何的一個影響。"},{"start":23010.186,"end":23028.641,"text":"所以他不會受法就對了?就不會受法就對了?他是就地合法就對了?沒有他是合法的就沒問題合法的都沒問題那不合法的本來就是不合法現在的規定也會去做相關的懲處不會因為國土計畫改變了以後非法的就完全一夕之間變合法"},{"start":23030.866,"end":23049.368,"text":"因為有些說實在它是在邊緣,那很多農民他真的非常的擔心,因為其實在水庫周邊的土地,它本身的使用就已經受限了。在苗栗有五個水庫,五個水庫供應全台灣對全台灣來講是非常重要的一個水資源。"},{"start":23050.364,"end":23063.78,"text":"當然已經規劃到苗栗縣因為地理位置的關係我們當然是願意來配合中央但是我也希望說中央在這方面能夠多為我們農民來設想讓我們的農民的權益不會受損這樣好不好"},{"start":23064.5,"end":23089.128,"text":"那也請委員能夠協助地方政府,請苗栗縣政府就全國一致的劃邊原則,盡快就苗栗縣內的...苗栗縣政府還沒報上來嘛,對不對?對,盡快的就苗栗縣裡面的土地的怎麼樣合理有效率的運用,那保障農民的權利的這個前提底下,盡快核定,然後報上我們一起來這個通盤的考量,再整體的處罰。另外我也接到產業界的陳情,就是說"},{"start":23089.848,"end":23101.654,"text":"國土計畫土地使用管理規則裏面預告版第8條沒有納入擴廠機制也就是說不能使用比林非都土地的擴廠這違反這個產業創新條例第65條的規定像這兩條的法就互相的抵觸了要以哪個為主"},{"start":23111.485,"end":23112.926,"text":"總量管制是誰限制的?"},{"start":23132.332,"end":23148.969,"text":"就是縣市政府這邊,縣府做一個空間規劃,然後要有一個區位的引導,然後再加上他有一個總量管制的一個前提之下,那土地的主管機關就會去做一個針對他的一個報上來的這個計畫去做一個核定。"},{"start":23149.97,"end":23176.398,"text":"對因為這個如果是你說現在是只要讓縣市政府自己去決定不是他決定要有三個前提就是第一個他要有個整體的空間規劃第二個部分他要有個區位的引導因為整個國土計畫裡面他容易到農務有不同的區位然後第三個部分他要有一個總量的一個管制那在符合這三個條件之下會送那個土地主管機關裡面然後我們會去因為我知道就是說經濟部這邊也表示過國土計畫"},{"start":23178.558,"end":23204.617,"text":"這個法的制定過程中有一在反映業界的需求也有向我們這邊來反映那內政部這邊不接受那未來有擴廠需求的廠商就會碰到這種問題我想這個問題是不是能夠有一個明確的一個說法你剛剛講那個其實是蠻含糊的那個處理下來是蠻我想各個那個承辦每個縣市的承辦人員一定聽不懂你講什麼到時候各自解釋"},{"start":23205.679,"end":23233.246,"text":"而導致產業這個發展受損,我想這是非常這個不好的。也希望我們這邊能夠兩個部會裡面盡快的來溝通,這樣好嗎?可以。好的,謝謝。好,那請部長回去。那我再請教院長,足跡處前兩天公布了一到四月的實質這個薪資的平均達到6.3萬元,你相信嗎?"},{"start":23234.926,"end":23250.432,"text":"跟委員一樣,我們在初期看到這樣的數字,我們也認為應該有一個更合時的計算方式。但是傳統上它就用這樣的計算,我們如果能夠把它改成中位數的計算方式來講,"},{"start":23251.277,"end":23268.597,"text":"那麼會讓答不到這些數字的人更有感說他是可以有努力改善自己。公布這個讓全國的人民聽到大家都很錯愕。因為尤其是網軍講了很多很好笑的說主計數是看到鬼。"},{"start":23269.91,"end":23293.015,"text":"是粉飾太平還是怎麼樣影響我覺得這樣子是影響我們機關的公信力那應該要更實質的來報導這樣的事情因為我們有查過有68%的民眾月薪不到5萬那47%的民眾月薪不到4萬所以我想說這個數字真的是差太多"},{"start":23295.842,"end":23319.308,"text":"這倒不是影響公信,它有它的依據只是它是用整體的平均數來算當然在平均數以下的很多的朋友們心裡的感受不好所以我們已經跟主席講過以後要在什麼樣研究上精進的來改善這樣公佈的方式跟內容讓所有的人看到覺得這個數字跟它是有感情是接近的"},{"start":23319.749,"end":23321.052,"text":"對阿,因為這個確實這樣,院長你這樣講就是非常好,希望主席處這邊"},{"start":23325.322,"end":23354.327,"text":"主席總書這邊能夠回去以後不要用這種方式因為這樣會讓人家覺得我們跟人民的這個距離非常的遙遠那很多網軍也調侃剛剛很多的話也有人說這是第四軍的這個薪水嗎像這些問題這些我認為是沒有必要發生的啦那我們講實際一點那當然能夠成長我們當然是非常的高興為我們的團隊做出來成績非常的肯定那當然也不要用這些數字來粉飾太平這樣好不好"},{"start":23355.063,"end":23383.06,"text":"報告委員因為他每個行業不一樣比如說他平均薪資4月份的話他如果注射和餐飲業是3萬4、4千7那如果是水美容美髮業就是3萬5那製造業就是4萬4那所以我們這裡也有把各種行業對啦怎麼加都不到6萬3啊我現在就不要再解釋啦那個我都有看到啦因為再講下去就沒有意思了那我只是希望說以後我們"},{"start":23383.78,"end":23386.061,"text":"我再請教處長我知道現在談到錢就傷感情談到權力大家都快要翻臉了"},{"start":23409.45,"end":23433.588,"text":"國民黨最近在提修這個我們才化法我相信院長你也知道那您對這件事有什麼看法?中央政府的財政跟地方政府的財政都應該做合理的規劃在目前來看中央政府每年從一般的補助款跟統籌分配稅款對地方政府的補助各項是逐年在增加的"},{"start":23433.848,"end":23438.669,"text":"我們的賴清德總統在2012年的賴市長的時候有提過2017年當賴院長的時候也有提過要修這個才化法你前幾天我有看了一下其他委員的質詢院長是說當現在的時空背景不一樣"},{"start":23460.66,"end":23462.202,"text":"您認為有沒有需要改進?"},{"start":23475.66,"end":23476.881,"text":"我知道你們都有在做,比如說很好像你們之前說的"},{"start":23494.395,"end":23508.963,"text":"我們長照服務、前瞻計畫、因應COVID-19等等的紓困的振興、國防的這些政策這幾年都有在做可是做完之後你有沒有覺得我們每年還超收3000億啊對不對3000億的錢扣還債1530億再補台電1000億還有剩600億啊"},{"start":23516.627,"end":23542.607,"text":"也就是說我們今天在修這個財政收支劃分法並不會影響到我們做這些剛剛我們講的長照的服務前瞻計畫的基礎建設等等這些都不太會影響部長跟你說明我覺得稅收的增加一方面是當時我們評估的比較保守但最重要的是大家人民的努力那這個要厚植國力我們必須讓國家的高度跟角色來看是不是請部長答覆一下部長講一下"},{"start":23543.227,"end":23572.086,"text":"跟委員說明我們的稅收是每一塊錢都是按照法律來收的那我們的實徵數如果超過預算數的話第一個我們會減少舉債像去年1732億就沒有借錢第二個我們會增加還債所以去年我們還了1260億那剩下的錢我們就會到累計到稅計剩餘那稅計剩餘其實就作為以後年度國家施政的一個需要這個是對財政的量能的累積以及財政的韌性是有必要這樣做的"},{"start":23572.659,"end":23592.209,"text":"那我請問一下您知道我們苗栗縣的財政狀況除了修財化法之外您覺得苗栗要怎麼樣才能夠幫助解決苗栗現在的困境苗栗縣的狀況是他的一個他的一個債限超過了目前的公債法所以這個部分其實苗栗縣政府也非常認真的在還債主計總數其實也有責任你不能說當年舉債舉超過了然後當然現在地方"},{"start":23599.434,"end":23613.932,"text":"後來的現場來背我覺得這也不公平了本來當時應該就要反應應該就要制止讓它發生這個當然是不好但這個過去的事情我們不想再提我們現在只是想說怎麼樣來解協助苗栗縣解決財政的困境"},{"start":23616.584,"end":23642.801,"text":"這個部分我先跟委員說明一下苗栗縣其實縣政府他也非常努力那其實他的一個債務的還債計畫一直符合行政院的一個規定同時呢在那個有關補助的部分其實主計總署對於苗栗縣的補助其實因為他的財政能力的關係所以他相對的補助的比例會比較高其實在我看來苗栗縣不是沒有能力賺錢跟還錢其實苗栗的創水能力"},{"start":23643.453,"end":23671.48,"text":"相比財政同級的縣市要高出很多但是因為我們統統分配款已經25年了25年沒有去修改這25年的變化很大讓其實你看從我們以前的2都現在到6都了現在從剩下6都在的16個縣市甚至台南高雄他們也支持這樣的一個財政收支劃分法的一個修改那我希望"},{"start":23674.377,"end":23675.378,"text":"我們當然是希望現在的才化法"},{"start":23700.214,"end":23702.136,"text":"你只要給苗栗縣多一點他就不會跟你要錢啊 對不對"},{"start":23727.538,"end":23733.162,"text":"我希望院板的出來大家可以朝野可以協商我不是說我們國民黨提出來的版本我們就是要招單全收我希望院板的出來之後我們大家可以坐下來談"},{"start":23756.54,"end":23776.609,"text":"因為這是關乎於整個臺灣的一個發展。我不希望它變成一個政治鬥爭的一個工具。讓整個臺灣在空轉。院長你支持這樣的說法嗎?行政院現在就是依照現在的財政收支發分辦法來做執行。那我們現在有用這個...有沒有想要調整呢?目前在這個..."},{"start":23778.038,"end":23780.78,"text":"這樣怎麼會正確呢?你把錢抓在手上,高興就給你,不高興就不給你。對不對,那這樣子的話每個縣市"},{"start":23802.823,"end":23818.123,"text":"我還是覺得為了台灣的安定因為馬上我認為才化法應該也是最近也會來三讀那到時候又搞成又要復議又要釋憲那對我們真的整個"},{"start":23824.406,"end":23836.27,"text":"中央還是要有很強的財政的這個分配的比例。比方說現在這次花蓮的震災,一下子拿出這麼多錢。這就是中央急了很多的錢才有辦法做到的。所以天災地變"},{"start":23837.586,"end":23866.005,"text":"這個能力的應付,絕對是要把它考慮在內的。好啦,那我順著現在院長講的話,再想到一件事情,就是說前幾天我們的洪孟楷委員在這邊來問過院長,就NCC的世衛委員的名單,請教您是否給予背書,你有看過,當時您回答說要檢視名單,現在已經過了兩個禮拜,您看過這份名單了沒有?我當然知道這個名單。您現在呢,這個是同意這份名單還是?"},{"start":23867.96,"end":23892.572,"text":"因為現在名單已經在大院裡面了。不是,如果你不同意你可以講啊,我們那個是可以換的。對不對?如果你覺得那不好,是不是要把名單調整過再送進來?因為他們現在停在那邊,不知道要不要審。我覺得應該照他的時間,那個大院可以在程序上立刻進行,對這些名單表示意見。你到底同不同意嗎?"},{"start":23893.561,"end":23917.807,"text":"因為他已經送進來,我現在就是用這樣的名單在院裡拿。其實他們在等你啊,他們問院長的,因為我們知道520才換嘛,那當然這是前院長陳院長的他的名單。那當然我們尊重新的院長,因為畢竟未來還是要配合的。那你今天如果有意見,其實他們都在等院長您的回覆。如果您認為有問題私下講嘛,那我們可以不要在這邊講啊。"},{"start":23919.52,"end":23919.98,"text":"那接下來還是民生的問題"},{"start":23945.444,"end":23968.533,"text":"我想經濟部水利署正在研議自來水、無自來水地區供水改善第5期的計畫那本期看到是近3年自來水普及率並沒有明顯的提升有兩個區呈現倒退的這個情形尤其苗栗縣的普及率仍然是全台倒數第4名院長您知道是什麼原因嗎?"},{"start":23970.011,"end":23970.711,"text":"其實是這樣,我跟院長報告"},{"start":23996.345,"end":24007.088,"text":"我認為的我發現的主要原因就是自來水沿管工程的物價及施工的成本大幅的攀升這是其中一個原因但是我們政府這個核定的"},{"start":24007.619,"end":24033.046,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":24034.229,"end":24059.539,"text":"偏遠的地方,我們尤其是原住民等無知來水的地區,成本超過60萬的申請案件根本就沒有辦法獲得核定。這是最主要的一個原因。那我也希望說,我們院長能夠提高這個限制。我知道經濟部水利署好像也向行政院申請監管工程每戶批准這個上限要調高,對吧?"},{"start":24061.365,"end":24082.695,"text":"我們現在是這樣子,如果每戶超過60萬的這個比較高的這個費用,那可以跟鄰近地區比較便宜的來做一個併用的方式。那這個是不是世足以來解決目前的困難?這當然還要再去仔細的去看看它執行的結果如何。我知道水利署已經有向行政院建議了嘛,它好像要提高到80萬元一戶啊。"},{"start":24084.713,"end":24110.935,"text":"希望院長能夠幫忙,原住民地區能夠到100萬,其實像苗栗縣,其實苗栗縣有5個水庫,周邊的很多居民水庫旁邊竟然沒有自來水,你知道這種情形嗎?就是因為他卡在這個60萬元的限制之內,他們根本沒有辦法去達成他們想要的這個水資源,而且水庫就在他家旁邊,這是多麼諷刺。"},{"start":24113.039,"end":24136.399,"text":"應該經濟部來跟水利署研究怎麼樣對人民最有利的方式我們來共同來討論請院長多多幫忙好不好盡量讓這個普及率能夠提升另外還有我想臺灣最近冒出上百座的垃圾山這個科技島淪為垃圾島"},{"start":24139.136,"end":24148.629,"text":"過去臺灣是全球垃圾處理與回收的領導的國家但近年來家庭垃圾及事業廢棄物大幅的成長去年有高達171.5萬"},{"start":24152.193,"end":24152.213,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":24169.807,"end":24191.099,"text":"那全臺灣冒出100多座暫存的這個垃圾山光是去年一年的暫存量就達到了84萬公噸我們部長有講過希望垃圾零成長的前提下去做去化但是做去化就要12年以這樣算的話以現在的量來算的話是12年那如果沒有擴大處理我們臺灣勢必會成為垃圾島那院長請問一下"},{"start":24193.956,"end":24222.898,"text":"我們政府大力推動整改及新設垃圾處理設施什麼時候像這樣的速度什麼時候可以把它打平啊?報告委員我們環境部彭部長很重視這個問題所以日前我也特別請他來就這個垃圾漏落堆積的這個現象希望他提出一個進程中程可以解決的方式那部長有他很精密的計算跟他工程的計畫是不是容許部長來向委員說明"},{"start":24224.54,"end":24238.742,"text":"報告委員其實第一個垃圾要零成長資源回收是最主要的降低這個垃圾量是最主要的觀念但是我們現在過去因為整改大概有84萬噸沒錯那其中大概有70多萬噸是裸露的"},{"start":24239.002,"end":24239.542,"text":"有地方可以掩埋了嗎?"},{"start":24261.435,"end":24284.756,"text":"目前來看的話因為我們的掩埋場大概還要花5、6我們的焚化爐要5、6年才會正式的上來因為現在的量真的不夠因為焚化廠已經老了所以大概還要如果真的要把所有的垃圾清掉真的還要再幾年的時間但是我們先解決露天的掩埋的部分但是我們好像不能等吧以現在的垃圾量不光是垃圾還有失業廢棄物等等這些都沒地方去啊"},{"start":24285.196,"end":24285.877,"text":"我覺得這樣,我在這邊建議"},{"start":24308.235,"end":24335.682,"text":"就是說其實大家都知道垃圾要處理但是就不要在我家旁邊設這是目前最困難的問題所以我希望中央能夠來極力的主導要求各縣市政府來配合我覺得從上到下會比較好因為如果縣市政府要做的時候可能會面臨你也知道一般的民眾的抗爭什麼這個部分確實是影響了我們現在垃圾處理的量"},{"start":24336.715,"end":24344.177,"text":"我希望說各縣市自己能夠處理自己的垃圾量尤其在新興的這些產業園區或者是這些科學園區等等在設置的時候是不是也一併規劃處理廠在裡面對這個是我們現在規劃的方向我覺得從這個角度來進去這樣子對整個事情的"},{"start":24365.043,"end":24369.486,"text":"謝謝委員其實現在的依照地方自治法垃圾是屬於地方自治的項目但是我們中央會全力的來協助地方我們一個縣市一個縣市會跟我們縣市首長來談這個問題會幫助他們"},{"start":24393.545,"end":24411.742,"text":"謝謝委員很贊成委員的講法如果地方政府都有能力基本處理垃圾會解決很大很大的問題那中央彭博長現在提的就是對53處垃圾漏落的堆積漏落的這個部分84萬噸他逐年他剛剛說四年我日前還要求說早一天完成"},{"start":24412.342,"end":24439.393,"text":"就讓我們可以避免自身其他的問題,所以應該把時程往前拉。其實各縣市政府,我想大部分應該都是比較支持的這個...報告委員,很多的縣市政府是要AI這個資料中心,不要垃圾焚化爐。那你的,所以我講啊,自己的垃圾自己處理啊。對,我們現在會鼓勵他。這個本來就應該要這樣子啊。你不能說把不好的往外推,好的要留下來,哪有這種事情,對不對?"},{"start":24440.414,"end":24467.113,"text":"希望就是中央您有一套健全的一個做法讓地方政府好配合嗎?好不好?謝謝委員那最後一個我想問一下就是我們在這個我在委員會我有問有提過幾次就是麻醉藥品依託民意值遭到濫用然後做成電子菸這個部分呢我們也質詢了許多次那當然也感謝我們衛福部跟這個"},{"start":24468.81,"end":24492.726,"text":"實要署這邊有來盡快的規劃,已經把伊托米子列為三級的毒品。謝謝,我們也肯定大家的積極性。不過我們面臨新興毒品,財難的年齡一直往下降。那毒品審議的進度趕不上毒品變化的速度。我想院長您對這個有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":24493.482,"end":24522.051,"text":"對的,陳副委員所說的現在任何犯罪的集團跟手法還有毒品都朝向迅速的多樣化那政府機關應該要趕上這個腳步所以這個審議的過程應該要吸取更多目前在危害社會危害青少年的這樣太陽應該要快一點緊速的來因應才能夠保護大家的安全對,因為你真的現在他們就是說我們當列一個毒品我們把它列為三級之後他們又換一個名稱換一個包裝"},{"start":24522.751,"end":24525.252,"text":"謝謝邱政經委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第39號黃捷委員質詢"},{"start":24567.944,"end":24575.311,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們請行政院卓院長還有法務部政部長。再請卓院長、政部長備選。好,院長好。"},{"start":24586.733,"end":24610.211,"text":"現在我們行政院已經把這個國會擴成法案已經提請復議了嘛然後我們立法院會在下個禮拜五來進行表決但是我可以預期啦雖然早上院長說你蠻樂觀的但我沒有這麼樂觀因為我認為在現在藍白還是非常執迷不悟而且暫時沒有悔改可能的情況下下個禮拜的表決結果還是非常有可能被否決"},{"start":24611.092,"end":24630.742,"text":"那我的認為是這樣子啦所以其實近一個月我接到非常多民眾的陳情他們都表達極度的擔憂跟焦慮他們在焦慮什麼呢他們因為其實我最近把所有我們可行的方案都告訴民眾了說我們一定會窮盡一切可能努力到最後一刻守護我們的憲政體制守護我們民主的權益"},{"start":24634.144,"end":24656.456,"text":"但是民眾還是很擔心啊他們覺得好像我們現在手無寸鐵怎麼辦呢尤其是接下來即便我們民進黨團體的釋憲但是在憲法法庭宣判之前或是大法官核可這個暫時處分之前是不是會有一個落地的空窗期呢那我不知道說行政院現在針對這件事情有沒有做好最壞的打算"},{"start":24657.316,"end":24673.764,"text":"什麼叫做最壞的打算呢?我先講一下說其實這段時間以來已經是上百位的法律學者以及三百位以上的律師都站出來說這一部法律就是侵害人民的基本權益然後也有非常多的外媒已經直接警示"},{"start":24674.264,"end":24699.551,"text":"甚至直接說這部法律就是臺灣立法院的過度擴權而且也說這部法案的內容是親中而且削弱總統的權利的甚至也有日媒直接說國民黨就是中國的特洛伊木馬那當然這個都是外媒的解讀那我是要問啦假設啦下禮拜真的復議失敗了然後我們提復議了我不知道行政院這邊有沒有打算也來提釋憲"},{"start":24700.791,"end":24713.216,"text":"因為其實行政院是可以提釋憲的嘛那站在行政權的角度你們有什麼理由以及用你們憲政機關的高度來論述這一部擴權法案現在對於行政體系的衝擊呢?"},{"start":24715.021,"end":24740.675,"text":"謝謝委員我想委員跟我都很清楚目前國會的生態我早上說我只是比較樂觀是因為我必須這樣我才能夠在這個禮拜花一些時間去處理其他重要的公務我如果每天很悲觀的在這個情境裡面那大概很多事情是無法進行所以我必須要抱持這樣的心情但是我也相信如果有經過公開合理而且非常理性的討論"},{"start":24742.437,"end":24762.095,"text":"這個案子不一定完全是不可能的我因為我相信委員都還是有正義感在身的他們還是會發揮出來的那是不是可能大家共同來努力那當然作為一個憲政機關我們依照憲政秩序的設計提出復議這個是我們的責任但除了憲政機關的這個角色之外我覺得因為這個職權行使法"},{"start":24763.997,"end":24789.136,"text":"並不是單純就立法委員內部的質詢行使。他牽扯到人民、法人、部隊以及政府官員。沒錯。要牽扯到人民權益有可能受損。行政機關一定要有責任來保護人民的這個權益。所以我們在這個立場上也必須也可以提出這樣的復議。但是復議的結果如果不是朝我樂觀的想像當中的話那未來"},{"start":24790.037,"end":24804.544,"text":"他呈現另外一種結果出現那憲政秩序上、憲政的設計上還是有再下去的這個救濟的方式那我想我們還是跟委員剛剛所說的我們窮盡一切的可能來維護憲政機關、維護願績的分立、維護人民的權益"},{"start":24808.098,"end":24823.187,"text":"好謝謝院長在這邊幫院長來加油一下啦這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔因為其實這段時間因為民眾也一直在跟我說他真的好擔心喔怎麼辦接下來人民會不會被調查啊因為他其實在這一部法律"},{"start":24824.027,"end":24840.197,"text":"擴傳下去真的是有可能調查人民的包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕甚至是他要請律師還要經過主席同意然後你沒有提供資料或是被認為是虛偽陳述都有可能被立法院要罰你錢啊甚至是按次要處罰"},{"start":24841.198,"end":24862.515,"text":"那這個刑法就更不用說了這個藐視國會罪我不知道現在的所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都瑟瑟發抖擔心自己說錯話就犯了這個藐視國會罪就要被關有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑甚至是20萬的罰金那當然啦其實大家都很擔心被這部法律影響"},{"start":24863.215,"end":24869.58,"text":"我必須接觸每一個人是的我必須要說在人權的保障上並不是用百分比來看待對嗎?是的"},{"start":24891.147,"end":24920.491,"text":"只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障嘛每一個人都應該要被接住啊怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢好那再來請教一下我們法務部長喔您是檢察官出身對嗎是好部長請教一下喔這部三讀通過的法律裡面讓立委可以來調閱司法或是監察機關的文件的副本請問您怎麼看"},{"start":24922.135,"end":24949.618,"text":"這部分還是要依據那個參佐那個釋字585號解釋的來做一個處理他那個585號解釋當然這個立法院有調卷的一個權利但是也必須要跟他立法院立法委員的固有的職權有重大的關聯這個限制才能夠做一個調卷那我想這個是在585號解釋已經講得非常的一個清楚了那至於立法院這一次的"},{"start":24950.3,"end":24979.146,"text":"此前的一個刑事法這部分應該有依託請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎?偵查中的案件是不能夠被調閱的那所以這部法律下去對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響?我想應該是會有影響因為他那個有些只有在偵查中的這部分是偵查不公開就是依刑訴訟法這部分是不能公開的那我想這部分我們是"},{"start":24980.887,"end":24984.837,"text":"我想這個其實監察院的條件我們都是就是必須要依照這個一個規定的"},{"start":24986.36,"end":25014.199,"text":"好 這個就是我希望法務部接下來要堅守的立場因為我講一句比較難聽的啦因為其實我們現在國民黨啊有一些委員他們涉入一些案件例如說詐欺、土利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等這些形式案件假設啦這個國會擴權法案下去他們跟我們現在監禁說他們要調這些案件的進度然後他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件的資料"},{"start":25015.401,"end":25031.76,"text":"會不會影響我們檢調的偵辦的進度?會不會影響這一些案件在作為你們司法獨立審判的這個過程當中的一些輿論或者是串供或者是任何偵查上面的影響?"},{"start":25036.885,"end":25056.321,"text":"所以啦我必須要說現在這整部法律就是一台非常這我就一直說這是一個垃圾法案啦他就是一個拼裝車然後一團混亂因為裡面沒有規範到任何對立委自己的自律的要求沒有任何利益迴避的這些規定執行上對你們來說真的會有非常大的問題啊"},{"start":25057.782,"end":25074.809,"text":"好謝謝我們先請那個部長先回座那我們院長先留在這邊那接下來我請教一下因為接著這個國會擴權法案我講一下說現在其實中國對台灣的各種各式各樣的威脅是非常大的這個我我把近期其實從1月到現在"},{"start":25076.61,"end":25099.876,"text":"的這種威脅列出來喔像是現在軍事繞台軍機繞台軍事演習軍事威脅然後各種的借選跟網路攻擊還有片面的更改M503的航線甚至是中國的海警強登金門的觀光船還有發射火箭飛越我國上空等等然後甚至是還派了武官在捷克來跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統"},{"start":25101.016,"end":25117.628,"text":"的這種行為都有在發生。好謝謝我們主委直接上來了。那我想要講一下就是說這個延續這個國會擴權法案來談是因為這個擴權法案裡面也有可能變成是瓦解台灣國防的破口。"},{"start":25118.288,"end":25132.707,"text":"我不知道我們國防部跟我們陸委會主委如何看待這部法律有沒有去評估過這部法律下去對你們會不會有相關的影響就例如說我們現在要做潛艦國造好了"},{"start":25133.55,"end":25161.251,"text":"那這個他們用國會調查權來調查弊案然後說國防部請你們提供淺見深聞的資料那我們這些重大的機密資料你必須要提供如果你們沒有提供就給你們開罰這種情況會不會發生呢我不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍沒關係先不用回答那這個我必須要講說現在的這個法案下去確實是也有可能造成這樣的問題"},{"start":25162.552,"end":25183.419,"text":"那再來我要請教的是其實還是我們院長啦因為其實現在我們立法院裡面躺了非常多的乾坑法案就我所知就你所知這個光是花東的三法兩兆的花東三法還有已經許多委員提到的才化法的修正有可能要吃掉我們中央5777億"},{"start":25186.96,"end":25195.756,"text":"我不知道你有沒有想過接下來如果照這個版本通過財化法將近6千億少了之後你們會受到什麼影響?"},{"start":25196.633,"end":25214.118,"text":"就是中央政府在財政的對地方補助以及一些天災地變的因應跟一些其他的長期的或是或者是每年都發生的或是單次發生的一些緊急事件那我們在失去了靈活運用的能力其實5700之外的9000億包括"},{"start":25219.035,"end":25237.967,"text":"統籌分配稅款一般補助款跟計劃性補助款每年將近9000億那也是已經補助給地方為優先的所以如果再把這個變成一個齊頭式的水平式的分配的話那中央會失去這個能力很多的事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力"},{"start":25238.929,"end":25264.174,"text":"沒錯,尤其是我是高雄的立委啦,我們高雄過去也是如果沒有中央這樣子可以靈活運用以及注重地方橫平性注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話其實我們地方還是非常可憐的喔,很多事情都做不了,大眾運輸也做不了然後這種從中央什麼育兒津貼租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了"},{"start":25265.194,"end":25288.49,"text":"所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的我希望你們要堅守這個立場接下來在不管各縣市大家一起來協商的時候一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平好不好是的這個拜託要請院長堅守喔那我剛剛會提到這個現在有這麼多的乾坑法案是因為我們中央的財政紀律要嚴守"},{"start":25289.531,"end":25294.575,"text":"是的,我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的這些很多的法案同時出現在國會裡面那同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央如果這樣的形成的話,剛剛說的中央這財政應變的能力就完全喪失了"},{"start":25317.671,"end":25319.512,"text":"好必須要說現在立法院躺了非常多的財政的惡法為什麼說這些也是惡法呢因為"},{"start":25340,"end":25358.85,"text":"這些法案都一再的說他們要提高預算然後幫這邊加一點那邊加一點但是完全沒有考慮到財政的評估是完全毀壞了財政的紀律的就例如說現在昨天我們省的這個反年改啊就是好不容易我們把這個年改改了之後我們省了大概2800億"},{"start":25360.331,"end":25376.511,"text":"如果照他們的版本下去這2800億等於完全沒了嘛那再包括這個才化法的近6000億然後花東三法兩照然後還有我們現在他們也要修老人福利法說65歲健保要免費然後大概也要花個400億"},{"start":25377.913,"end":25377.933,"text":"請院長。"},{"start":25393.753,"end":25414.762,"text":"國際改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續的發展跟生存也為了讓軍人這個常任久用常用久任的這個原則所以如果今天改回去那變成走回頭路過去改革的精神完全被破壞那國家財政回復到改革之前的困難也不是大家所樂見的所以我們會逐一的來檢視現在在"},{"start":25417.003,"end":25438.008,"text":"法案當中埋下對中央政府財政設計的這樣的法案,我們認為它也違反相關的法律。那我們必須在大院裡面或是在委員會裡面,我們據理力爭,充分的說明。我希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政,會比較健全。"},{"start":25438.39,"end":25458.558,"text":"好這個一定要拜託我們院裡所有每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神啦就是因為其實看得出來現在立法院有一群人真的就是在掏空國家不管是財政還是媒體上面還是所有的防線都不斷的在架空你們"},{"start":25459.378,"end":25486.191,"text":"那我認為這個對於國家的影響非常重、非常嚴重那最後一點時間我要講一下因為這個其實也是最近送進來我發現跟我們國家非常有關係的就是這個兩岸監督條例因為其實我們過去在太陽花在主張的就是說要來可以進行兩岸的政治協議之前都要有一個非常嚴格的把關機制所以我們也在兩岸條例裡面在民進黨時期把它收進去了就是五支三條可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門"},{"start":25487.952,"end":25489.233,"text":"就是把經濟跟政治協議分開"},{"start":25521.237,"end":25547.475,"text":"好 這個要拜託因為以目前民眾黨的版本下去就是在放寬我們兩岸監督條例的底線甚至是把四分之三出席四分之三同意這樣的門檻都降低了無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間的協議的這個底線我認為是非常嚴重的拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關"},{"start":25550.356,"end":25552.2,"text":"謝謝黃婕委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第40號廖先祥委員質詢。"},{"start":25575.93,"end":25580.592,"text":"好,謝謝院長。麻煩幫我要請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長備選。好,院長好。兩人好。剛上任喔,大家認識一下喔。誰要先想啊?本人頭髮比較少啦,不好意思,比較胖一點。"},{"start":25597.366,"end":25614.179,"text":"好,這個,院長,我先首先請教一個問題喔,就是您在剛上任的時候,我們洪孟凱書記長在31號在立法院被選,包括邱正軍委員剛有提問,NCC的委員,行政院在4月30號已經提名了嘛。"},{"start":25614.679,"end":25641.164,"text":"那針對這些NCC的委員請問一下我們左院長您是要選擇替這份名單背書還是會提出其他的人選那當時您的回答您的回答是說會檢視名單在最短的時間內讓立法院看到我想十多天兩個禮拜過去了您的回覆目前有沒有最新回覆謝謝委員的提醒因為這個名單現在在大院裡面我不曉得這個程序上如果"},{"start":25642.452,"end":25662.53,"text":"大約還會再討論這個案子的話那程序就會繼續走阿如果不討論的話應該我們也可以有一個其他的想法所以您目前是對這個247人事案你沒有自己的立場剛剛委員在隨詢的時候我說過是不是跟草野各黨團談一下這個現在送來的名單到底他還是不是將目前要審"},{"start":25663.73,"end":25683.561,"text":"照程序陳院長算的名單當然算數嘛。但是我們立法院也要看一下我們現任行政院長責任政治嘛責任政治您要為陳建仁院長的名單背書還是您要提自己的名單我們也要看一下院長的看法還是說您對於NCC人士沒有立場就"},{"start":25684.892,"end":25685.032,"text":"國人實質薪資"},{"start":25715.256,"end":25730.017,"text":"也在今天也造成了許多討論嘛,那網友嘛,網友就說6萬3剛剛看了幾啦齁,那針對於這樣的數字齁,我想還是先讓我們的行政部會有一個再解釋一下,針對網友的解讀嘛齁,"},{"start":25730.618,"end":25735.322,"text":"我原則性先向委員答覆因為我還沒有公佈前看到這個數字我們也是跟主席總書說如果社會看到這個數字對我們會提出一些問題來的"},{"start":25757.981,"end":25767.964,"text":"那這個絕對不是無憑無據的他也是用傳統的算計算方式總平均的計算方式但現在大家比較能接受的大概是比較像中位數的平均數來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":25784.329,"end":25808.328,"text":"公平計算的方式我的想法是說讓人民看到這個數字是跟自己接近的而且是有感情的是有溫暖的那主席總書也會朝這個方向來主席怎麼做我們請主席長來說明報告委員這一次我們公布的時候因為我們以往都只公布平均薪資那我們沒有我們這一次是把各行業的薪資都有公布出來那這一次因為各"},{"start":25808.848,"end":25831.084,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":25831.484,"end":25834.246,"text":"那再請問一下就是當然國人對這樣的數字有一些討論那我想請問一下院長"},{"start":25860.728,"end":25863.271,"text":"我當然知道,很多數的國人薪資是不到這個平均數的。"},{"start":25878.97,"end":25879.09,"text":"主席長"},{"start":25896.912,"end":25921.407,"text":"政府企業跟每個人共同努力我們把薪資再把它拉高因為台灣已經是一個高科技這麼受世界矚目的國家那我們應該有能力將這種科技業發展出來的整個經濟的發展讓全民共享所以我們提出創新驅動普惠大眾希望大眾都能夠享受到這樣的成果那這個就是未來整個內閣團隊"},{"start":25922.668,"end":25922.988,"text":"院長下一個議題就是"},{"start":25944.71,"end":25962.535,"text":"這個巴黎奧運要到了嘛對不對?是。您應該知道嘛。好那PowerPoint到下一頁。想請問一下在院長的眼中我們的國球是什麼?棒球一直是我們的國球但是我們的桌球近年來也是好手進出啊。那在羽毛球甚至網球"},{"start":25965.981,"end":25980.246,"text":"每種球類都很好我們都要鼓勵啦但是跟院長報告其實我們台灣的國球應該是贏球啦贏球只有贏球的那一個體育項目才會受到國家高度的關注只有贏球那我想說的是"},{"start":25981.346,"end":26006.821,"text":"其實不管是任何的比賽或者是我們在發展全民體育的時候我們一個角度不應該是說我們只看到那個第一名的在所有在過程中有努力的每一個人有得到成績的人應該都是需要受到我們的關注那可能也涉及到我們國人這個運動風氣的一個問題如果說我們什麼東西都是只關注到第一名的話只給他最豐厚的獎勵的話"},{"start":26008.502,"end":26031.179,"text":"那可能大家來從事運動的風氣就會可能比較差一點那我們現在是要跟院長討論一下獎金的問題啦下一頁這個先讓院長看一下我們這個整理了一些資料啦那奧運冠軍從民國91年一次領1000萬到93年提升到1200萬月領75000塊那現在的金額跟月領的金額不曉得院長知不知道"},{"start":26038.772,"end":26053.171,"text":"這是這樣的數字?沒有啦這是9393年我們調過啦我們國家沒那麼…沒那麼…沒那麼摳啦我們在2018年的時候這個賴總統時任行政院長的時候我們有對獎金在做比較…奇怪我有問題為什麼教育部長不上來救援你一下"},{"start":26056.704,"end":26070.096,"text":"沒關係 這個東西其實是比較細的啦 這東西比較細一點那我也沒有說一定要院長能夠答得出來只讓院長知道一下這個背景的數字我們給院長看一下我們現在的獎金大概是多少"},{"start":26071.039,"end":26092.101,"text":"一次領是兩千萬那月領是十二萬五千那其實金額已經不低了金額不低了那也都有一些顯著性的成長那這個大概是應該是一百零四年一百零四年已經十年沒有調整了那我認為金牌這個獎金其實是沒有大家不會說很低啊但多多益善能夠願意提高當然是很好的那我們來看一下銀牌"},{"start":26094.039,"end":26123.491,"text":"我們來看一下銀牌一樣從500萬提升到600萬那個是9393年的那依照剛剛1000萬變成2000萬那我們從亞運的500萬一開始的500萬到現在你猜我們亞運有沒有一樣比例的成長獎金你知道現在獎金是多少嗎?應該有成長有成長一定有成長冠軍大概從1000萬變2000萬那亞軍銀牌的部分您猜一下"},{"start":26127.148,"end":26132.652,"text":"跟部長報告跟院長報告我們現在的亞運是從500萬調到了700萬那月領是38000元那這個東西從民國94年就沒有調整過了其實競牌我們剛剛看到103年104年有調整過了那亞運銀牌已經已經20年沒有調整了那銅牌也是類似的情況那下一張"},{"start":26156.138,"end":26164.383,"text":"我們亞運的銅牌基金就是從400萬嘛那現在調再猜一下現在金額大概多少?500"},{"start":26166.723,"end":26167.324,"text":"我們下一張整理的表"},{"start":26195.057,"end":26209.98,"text":"好那這樣就比較清楚了啦我們確實從民國91年到113年在金牌的部分翻倍了我們當然是肯定那當然多多益善12萬5那銀牌跟銅牌金牌是翻了100%銀牌只翻了40%500萬多了200萬那銅牌只翻了25%400萬變500萬"},{"start":26217.702,"end":26235.148,"text":"那這個是一次領的那月領的部分喔其實差距就更大了我們從91年到113年已經這個政府已經是不一樣了我們已經有大小眼了結果我們月領的部分喔我們看到金牌月領12萬5他大概是2000萬的0.62%"},{"start":26237.829,"end":26243.671,"text":"銀牌3.8萬是700萬的0.54%銅牌24000元是500萬的0.48%我們一樣都是從一次性的獎金變成月領的獎金結果這個比例怎麼會是不一樣的?這個有辦法做一些解釋嗎?"},{"start":26257.153,"end":26277.84,"text":"這個結構性的問題其實我不太了解你說一次性的獎金調整不一樣你說你只獎勵第一名沒有關係第一名當然不鼓勵我們希望選幾條那怎麼會連月領的這個部分所佔總獎金就一次領的比例也會不一樣有辦法解釋嗎還是說院長認為這有調整的空間與必要"},{"start":26281.297,"end":26299.487,"text":"我覺得這個是希望他能夠在比較長的時間對自己的生活或是其他方面有一個比較穩定的這個獎金的分配所以是不是鼓勵他往這個方向去對 領月領沒有問題我的問題我可能講的不是很清楚金牌月領12萬5000元他只是2000萬的0.62%那照理來說我們銀牌要給選手的月領的獎金應該也是700萬的0.62%"},{"start":26309.298,"end":26315.122,"text":"金牌的比例是0.62%銀牌卻只有0.54%這個東西不合理吧?有了解我的意思嗎?還是部長要補充說明一下?謝謝委員的提醒我想如果按照那個比例他確實這個銀牌跟銅牌是確實是一個列為這個低了一點如果按照金牌的一個比例當然我們在過去"},{"start":26335.934,"end":26348.804,"text":"好,我們的代表團已經是這兩個月的事情了,那就希望說我們能夠在他們出發前來做一個檢討,讓他來做一個至少比例上面要一樣,然後金額看看能不能調整,在我們的選手出國前給他們一個鼓勵跟打氣好不好?"},{"start":26364.335,"end":26390.896,"text":"可以嗎?好,可以喔,那謝謝院長。那補充一下,帕運也一樣啦,這個帕運我就沒有直接想了,帕運的部分。那我們其實重視奧運,那其實帕運的討論度比較差。那關於身心障礙的朋友,我也希望我們能夠多下一些關注,一併來檢視。那另外,選手商務艙這件事情都確定了嗎?每一位出國代表我們中華民國去參加奧運的,每一位選手的商務艙都訂好了嗎?"},{"start":26392.33,"end":26414.356,"text":"我們之前有開過一次的內部的會議,我要求說選手們怎麼去怎麼回,怎麼吃怎麼住,我們要非常細心的來照顧他。商務艙這個東西應該是潘部長之前就是一樣在今年在這邊承諾過,我不曉得你們認不認他這個承諾,每一個選手出去一定都是商務艙。"},{"start":26415.646,"end":26423.749,"text":"我們做得到嗎?我們會優先這樣想,但是有時候配合班次、航班、飛機的設計選手聽了會有點失望啦有的人出去商務艙,有的人經濟艙,哪個項目經濟艙能這樣比嗎?對不對?"},{"start":26437.726,"end":26463.804,"text":"我們現在一定照這個方向做,那如果班次發生困難,可能要做其他...好不好,排除一切困難,給我們選手最好的一個出國比賽的一個交通運輸,希望每一個選手出國比賽,奧運選手出國比賽,都有商務艙可以搭。拜託,拜託院長跟部長。謝謝,這是一定要做到的。好,謝謝。那接下來下一個議題喔,先請問一下,部長可以先請回喔。"},{"start":26465.439,"end":26473.087,"text":"請教一下院長我們的這個監獄啊原則上如果說我們要先做一個監獄的話你大概我們會選擇有哪些條件的情況下我們會來做監獄"},{"start":26474.83,"end":26474.85,"text":"對,好"},{"start":26503.717,"end":26526.393,"text":"那接下來我就是要問社宅問題啦那原則上我們賴總統有在去年選舉的時候宣布嘛就是百萬嘛百萬社宅那扣掉50萬租金補貼大概就剩50萬嘛50萬之後再扣掉再包租貸款25萬那原則上社宅就是25萬那這個賴總統之前是13萬所以25扣掉15大概就是"},{"start":26528.523,"end":26529.424,"text":"目前我們的目的"},{"start":26555.22,"end":26557.871,"text":"目前我們的目標是8年內完成8年內蓋完"},{"start":26560.054,"end":26585.151,"text":"我們現在目前的目標8年內但是你說8年內蓋完我覺得這樣太誇張但是我們一定朝這個目標前進8年內是個很長的時間希望8年內能蓋完好OK那我們當然是支持社會住宅那只是說地點就是我剛一開始為什麼問建議這個地點這個地點在之前這個也是立法院之前上一屆有人在做討論"},{"start":26588.793,"end":26608.568,"text":"那時候時任的邱委員有問說社會住宅是不是貧民窟那現在的話董事長說不可能是貧民窟嘛我們要興建社會住宅一定是選擇在交通比較便捷發展已經相對成熟的地方而不會特別蓋到郊區或一些比較特別的地方那這個論述跟剛剛院長講的差不多"},{"start":26609.248,"end":26617.759,"text":"就是與跟既有的這個發展區域不會隔得太遠。那我們在汐止現在在挑涉宅的地方我就有很大的疑問下一張。我們汐止曾經有三個地方有討論要蓋涉宅那最後目前"},{"start":26626.105,"end":26642.419,"text":"行政院合定的大概只有一處,就是在我們的白爬湖,就是右下角。我們右下角這個可能顏色比較淡一點,有一個圓圈圈,上面就是我們市區,然後這個一條路的那個就是高速公路嘛。然後下面這邊原本是我們的監獄預定地。我們會蓋監獄的地方就如同剛剛院長講的,可能離人間比較,會有點距離,跟這個"},{"start":26651.311,"end":26660.823,"text":"有不會影響到衝擊衝擊到我們既有生活圈嗎那結果我們現在內政部唯一可能目前確定案要蓋的就是在我們的監獄定地"},{"start":26662.449,"end":26684.406,"text":"那我就有很大的疑問,我們就好像就是為了去衝這個數量,所以就是隨便去找了一些地,就違背了剛剛院長講的話,違背了當初花次長在我們立院所做的答詢,直接蓋在一個荒郊野外,地大嘛,隨便我們蓋嘛,然後就蓋了很多戶,反而是我們地方民眾希望蓋的地方,"},{"start":26685.186,"end":26700.477,"text":"包括我們汐止有兩處啊,你們不一定知道在哪裡。一個是我們的一個保藏坑的營區,國防部的土地目前正在做變更。結果我們住租中心居然說因為裡面有一座電塔,它是一個零幣設施,所以他們不太想蓋。"},{"start":26701.718,"end":26718.429,"text":"好,一個電塔,你電塔可以下地板,這個你也是行政院的,台電也是行政院的東西啊,這都是中央政府的事情嘛。結果搞到現在,要做這個公社解編,那地方政府拿他們分配回45%的部分去做這個社宅要去蓋。"},{"start":26719.309,"end":26738.747,"text":"但是這個就跟我們如果說整塊營區去做設宅變更的地木變更做設宅的量體就會差很多了。我是希望我們中央能夠承擔起這個責任因為地方我知道設宅要蓋要讓地方接受其實不是那麼容易的其實地方是非常願意我們來蓋設宅的結果我們居然因為電塔這個緣故"},{"start":26740.589,"end":26761.322,"text":"而把他目前是排除在外,那包括包括我們的一個文高用地也是軍方的用地,當初也是有評估說要做公社解編嘛,那所以他會有一部分住宅區一部分的社福用地啊,那也會蓋很多社會住宅啊,結果後來也是因為挖到廢棄物,所以說我們現在就擱置了,這個地方也是沒有反對啊,結果我們"},{"start":26762.515,"end":26791.434,"text":"為了我的感覺就是我們的行政院我們的租屋中心為了衝數量就去挑容易做的但是違背了我們當初蓋社宅所設立的一些前提我們必須要跟這個這個既有的生活圈他社宅必須要是緊密的否則他可能會被標貼標籤化這樣子一個初衷所以就為了衝這個數量就找一塊地把它蓋一蓋然後真的地方想蓋了你們不蓋這個部分我不曉得我們部長或是院長能不能在這邊承諾"},{"start":26792.976,"end":26807.552,"text":"針對我們汐止的這個社宅我們有沒有辦法再做一個通盤性的檢討那以符合地方民眾期待的地點去蓋地方以及我絕對不反對蓋社宅而是我們反對在不恰當的地方去蓋社宅"},{"start":26808.632,"end":26826.495,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心,這表示說我們在推動這個社會住宅的時候更審慎,也就是說我們未來的社會住宅要朝著小造正,像你講的,它周邊的生活環境,包括道路交通等等能不能復合,而不是把它蓋在邊邊角角結果沒有人要去,這是第一點。"},{"start":26827.095,"end":26851.609,"text":"那第二個呢我們很希望因為新北市呢是一個我們的直轄市那他們如果能夠提供土地或者是未來啊有這個國公營事業能夠提供土地的話我們願意再來做審慎的評估那您講的那三塊土地確實現在要蓋像你非常了解這個都市計畫要做公社解編或者是說原來的軍方預定地下面有這個有害事業廢棄物的話你要把它全部清除完畢啊"},{"start":26851.869,"end":26873.729,"text":"除非說原來的這個土地管理人願意這樣做,否則按照都市重劃的話,我們不可能用都市重劃的錢去把那個廢棄物處理掉。所以所有的過程當中是表示我們非常審慎的在選擇以汐止地區為主的社會住宅。那如果說委員能夠提供我們這方面的土地的使用,沒有任何其他問題或是說它是個乾淨的樹地的話,"},{"start":26874.79,"end":26875.831,"text":"政府把錢花下去了政府把錢花下去了如果說反而沒有"},{"start":26904.326,"end":26933.738,"text":"沒有達到我們的預期到時候它變成一個鬼城地方的民眾不支持然後民眾支持的地方你不蓋你不覺得花這個錢很沒有意義嗎?報告我都還沒有蓋啊都還沒有蓋對還沒有蓋但已經核定了那我就希望我們會後再做一些有時候你更審慎要來評估好沒錯我就希望能夠更審慎的來評估好不好我們可以有其他用途如果說是白袍湖這個地方它是不是也是有北二高的交流道有一個自然公園它一個未來的捷運也一個連通的公角"},{"start":26934.564,"end":26938.847,"text":"我希望能夠再做多一些討論好不好會後再麻煩內政部主動跟我的辦公室做一些聯絡我們再做一些詳細的討論可不可以"},{"start":26962.758,"end":26964.202,"text":"謝謝 涉財問題就到這邊下一個議題是我最重視的一個議題軌道運輸這個東西喔"},{"start":26972.267,"end":27001.433,"text":"基隆南港間通勤軌道建設計畫中的規劃,其實我在上一次總質詢也有請教陳建仁部長,只不過我發現在跟他討論過程中,因為可能他要卸任了,那他也不是很了解這個案子,所以說反正就吵吵鬧鬧就結束了。那我希望部長一上任之後,我想能夠當一個民意代表,能夠當行政院長,這個在人生過程當中都是非常難得的一個機會。我們都希望我們所做的事情對後代是好的,我們希望所做的事情,我們"},{"start":27002.722,"end":27003.942,"text":"當初本來線的延伸也是蔡總統"},{"start":27030.055,"end":27052.902,"text":"當初在選舉的承諾啦當然也過了啦我沒有要也不一定說一定要賴總統把它承擔下來啦好不好下一張好啦這個是這個圖喔院長請看一下上面是現在的方案啦它原則上會有三條捷運線最上面的淺藍色的是這個所謂的民生線啦現在是西東線那就是過去說的民生線您當過台北市議員應該是非常清楚啦"},{"start":27053.422,"end":27074.102,"text":"那綠色的就是俗稱的基隆捷運,中間綠色的捷運,這下面就是板南線。那現在這個是現在的方案,它可能路線非常的交錯而且要轉車。那最下面的這張圖是我們目前地方上建議的案件,就是我們的板南線能夠做一個延伸到張樹安,讓基隆捷運跟這個西龍線以及民生線能夠做一個串接。"},{"start":27075.282,"end":27077.243,"text":"委員垂詢的如果是這個阪南線的延伸那現在這個組織單位是臺北市政府捷運工程局"},{"start":27097.705,"end":27121.36,"text":"院長我必須跟你報告一下當初這個計畫是基隆南港監通請軌道建設計畫綜合規劃所以這個整個路廊應該都當初是我們行政院在做主宰在做規劃的施工當然是那個當然是那個但是我們報告的時候是我們做的怎麼可以說在討論到板藍線的時候就把他拖到台北市政府那我覺得就會抱歉啦我覺得覺得我沒有必要再問下去好像會跟之前問陳建仁院長一樣"},{"start":27122.503,"end":27129.027,"text":"對,所以部長你也沒有很了解我的訴求啊。供購的部分我完全沒有要動到啊。我的訴求是,本來線也伸到張書安啊。我們供購的地方是張書安到矽科啊。完全沒有衝突啊。"},{"start":27152.216,"end":27172.775,"text":"那另外就是說以延伸線來講,板南線如果要延伸到張樹灣這一段,通常不會是圓軌延伸,一定是會因為它的運量不足,一定不會是高運量的延伸,會變成是一個輕運量,那一定還是會有接駁等等的問題。為什麼不能圓軌延伸,往普城那邊就有圓軌延伸?那個運量根本沒有效益。"},{"start":27176.579,"end":27200.124,"text":"我們每天台鐵多少人來台北每天公車多少人擠得跟沙丁魚一樣你跟我說矽脂人大公共運輸沒有運量你如果只有延伸到張樹灣不是延伸到基隆沒有把基隆的人口一起來支撐他的運量單單靠矽脂的運量是沒有辦法高運量他一樣在張樹灣做轉成啊基隆民眾到台北是沒差一樣都是轉成一次只是在張樹灣轉成或是哪當轉成這樣你會讓矽東縣整個都耽誤下來"},{"start":27205.704,"end":27231.034,"text":"因為現階段西東縣的我今天一定要問這個我今天會問這個你一定知道嘛你今天又跟我扯西東縣這個案子跟西東縣完全沒有關係西東縣做西東縣的我也建議你要先跟新北市市政府捷運局先可以啊我在當議員的時候也都有問啊誰不管政黨當然現在是回為當市長嘛他不支持我一樣我一樣是可以批評他但是我現在是立法委員我現在在這邊我就是執行院長跟部長嘛"},{"start":27232.914,"end":27256.943,"text":"對,所以說,今天是3月,臺北市政府有一個函,他說這個路段因為涉及土地徵收,民宅的拆除以及大同路的路幅小,還有機場空間不足跟財務效益不足,他是傾向不再啟動,他現在的意思是這樣,當初是林佳龍部長跟山市市長討論出來的東西嘛,你一個地方政府怎麼可以推翻一個當初部長大家討論的東西?"},{"start":27258.684,"end":27276.039,"text":"台北市政府談的我知道啊那就是當初是三個市長跟交通部長一起討論出來的方案嘛大家都不想去做破壞當初這個方案的人嘛因為現在基隆捷運已經在路上了嘛已經在規劃當中了這我知道所以我剛剛才跟院長說我們退休了之後再回頭來看"},{"start":27278.192,"end":27306.962,"text":"當初這個建設的規劃是對的嗎?我們有沒有機會在任內去做一些改變讓它可以成為真正一個百年的建設所以我今天我知道機會很低所以我今天才又花了時間在這邊跟院長做討論我們有沒有機會在我們的這個報告名稱叫做基隆南港間通勤軌道建設計畫綜合規劃的理念再去詳細的去修正一次評估報告去重新評估板南線延伸的可行性你們有沒有意願?"},{"start":27308.967,"end":27323.332,"text":"您只要講有沒有意願,沒有意願我就不用再問下去了我們是覺得現在再重啟規劃整個時程包括基隆捷運跟西東線整個時程會耽擱下來那我想我們是不是安排一個時間跟您報告相關的細節"},{"start":27324.66,"end":27343.58,"text":"好,好沒關係,看來你們是不太願意啦。好沒關係,我是真的希望我們以後退休之後回頭來看一下我們當初所做的每一個決策。這個決策不是院長做的決策,不是部長做的決策。我是上一任政府做的決策,但我們有沒有,我們願不願意去修正讓它變得更好。我們的初衷就是這樣。好,那再下一個。"},{"start":27344.361,"end":27346.642,"text":"我們還是希望這個人工智慧是用比較正確的資訊他或許有一些誤差但是"},{"start":27372.479,"end":27395.114,"text":"黨的主張應該有黨的發言系統來對待說全部比較對。確的DPP造謠嗎?不是造謠,它有的資訊不是挺完整的,但是黨的主張應該...他說國會改革法案符合程序正義有完整合法的法案審議程序啊,可是我們行政院的文件上面寫沒有啊,那一定有一個是對的一個是錯的嘛。"},{"start":27404.351,"end":27405.673,"text":"謝謝廖宣祥委員質詢。謝謝主委長的備詢。報告委員會現在我們休息10分鐘。"},{"start":27991.886,"end":28019.241,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":28038.882,"end":28042.364,"text":"報告宴會現在我們繼續開會。接下來請陳冠廷委員質詢。"},{"start":28072.823,"end":28075.244,"text":"我們請院長還有公共部長"},{"start":28081.366,"end":28081.767,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":28090.953,"end":28117.938,"text":"院長我想首先先祝賀您新任院長,那也希望說未來的這個時間裡面我們可以一起為臺灣來打造一個更好的未來。首先想請院長,不知道有沒有聽到最近在美國的印太司令部帕帕羅上將有透露出地域景象的戰略,意思是說美軍將在未來台海戰事爆發的時候會部署數以千計的無人。"},{"start":28118.658,"end":28140.604,"text":"無人載具我為什麼說無人載具我不說無人飛行器因為包含這一個海面上海面下這些都是無人載具的一部分那去作為擾亂中國軍隊為美軍爭取時間的這個部分院長怎麼看待美軍的這個戰略是我們在最近二無戰爭以哈戰爭當中都陸續可以看到新型態的作戰方式"},{"start":28141.499,"end":28159.65,"text":"那對台灣來講我們從以前到現在一直在認定採取一種不對稱的戰爭對台灣的防衛系統是最有利的。那這個部分我想在我們強化國防發展自主國防力量的過程當中一直朝向強化我們防衛系統這個方向來努力的。"},{"start":28161.158,"end":28176.379,"text":"顧部長雖然到國防部久我想他也提出了很多對國防部的因心因格的事項當然對於傳統我們在發展的自主國防強化國防的力量的這個過程裡面國防部一定扮演最重要的角色我們一定用科技化現代化來進行"},{"start":28177.58,"end":28200.818,"text":"科技化跟現代化那我想無惡戰爭也是一個很好的例子就是說我們希望說利用我們的這種無人機無人艦來去彌補傳統兵力上面的不足甚至來因應來增強那其實這一次您的這一個政府是叫AI政府那AI的這個應用共創新局那AI的應用在這個無人載具上面也有非常大的效用"},{"start":28201.559,"end":28230.77,"text":"所以部長我們現在有建翔反輻射無人機,我們也有騰雲長城增打無人機,還有志榮一號的消防無人艇,你認為我們有足夠的無人機無人艦來配合美軍來執行這個戰略嗎?雖然現在發展台灣的無人機的產業,但是現在來講我們還是要迎頭趕上,那這個部分請部長來說明。跟委員報告,第一個就是說國軍還是要持續這個多元的管道來籌貨這個各類型的無人機來快速形成戰力。"},{"start":28232.439,"end":28256.358,"text":"護和防衛作戰時序所以如果你講說現在是不是足夠我必須很坦誠的講我們還是要持續來進行才能夠配合剛剛你提到的這個帕巴羅上將所提的因為帕巴羅上將所提的這種護和這種所謂利用敵人的破綻攻擊落點的這種的不對稱的作戰的方式我們要跟他配合的話我們不但有足夠的這些"},{"start":28257.386,"end":28260.008,"text":"謝謝部長我想我們剛才提到的部署無人載具那包含是海面上海面下包含在空中飛行"},{"start":28274.541,"end":28292.836,"text":"高低配全部都要不管是進口或者是在國內本土廠商的這個製作我想在烏日戰爭是每天每個月所消耗的這種無人載具是非常大的所以我們必須要確保我們國內有足夠的產業鏈還有國內有足夠的企業願意投入這樣子的生產"},{"start":28293.777,"end":28322.263,"text":"所以我必須還是要說等一下我們會談到民雄的航太園區在那之前我還是要說我們這樣子的需要的這樣的無人機的生產就需要大規模的評測的基地不管是在測試也好不管是提供場地也好不管是在高階一點的無人機我想大家應該知道美軍的這個MQ-9這種高配的這種無人載具或者是比較微型的無人機型或者是在海面上海面下這全部都是需要有一個完整的場地"},{"start":28322.483,"end":28343.353,"text":"﹗"},{"start":28343.433,"end":28363.886,"text":"那未來在一些我們非典型的灰色的這種地帶的這種戰略上面對我們的威懾也可以稍微減輕那像是在這次淡水發生的狀況其實如果能夠在大規模的部署相關的這一些機具裝備的話其實都可以更快偵測或者是說在偵測之後可以有其他的相應作為"},{"start":28364.426,"end":28389.772,"text":"所以我是希望說未來能夠跨部會來去做協調因為在農用的在這個消防用的跟在軍用的其實他們都有各種不同的應用的方向跟方式我是希望把評測的場地評測的機制評測的機會全部都要更加平凡更加制度化讓每一個在臺灣有志於國防產業的企業都能夠加入我們國軍的這種建軍的規劃方案"},{"start":28392.173,"end":28415.706,"text":"那除了國內當然還有國外的我們包含進口也是非常重要我們希望說未來能夠利用這樣子的無人載具來去彌補說我們可能在人員上面可能沒有辦法像中國有辦法這麼多人口但是我們卻能夠用我們的這種科技來去做一個相應的去做平衡那謝謝部長那我們接下來要請這個國發會主委跟財政部長"},{"start":28426.307,"end":28434.636,"text":"還有顧部長國防部長因為這個是民雄航太園區因為民雄航太園區這邊顧部長顧部長再請國防部謝謝"},{"start":28450.09,"end":28475.535,"text":"部長我簡單的來講一下我們的這個無人產業園區民雄的無人機及航太園區那今年的3月22號我在這邊有問過陳建遠院長關於民雄航太及無人機產業園區的部分那之前的狀況是因為經濟部沒有土地所有權所以他們不想或許也不能進場開發但是國防部有土地所有權但是卻沒有開發的這個經驗那那個時候我問陳院長說要由誰來開發"},{"start":28478.598,"end":28504.672,"text":"那時候陳院長的答覆是說會後會交由副院長來召集協商看是由國防部主責或者是經濟部主責所以我想請教一下我聽到的消息是4月15號有開過一次專業的會議專案的會議就是說要把開發的主導權給國防部我想確認這是已經決議的事情嗎跟委員報告您問的大概是那個民雄縣區的東西側兩側的這個兩個"},{"start":28507.526,"end":28519.78,"text":"那東側基地的部分是中科院大概是25公頃這是中科院西側你關切的西側29公頃的那個部分作為航太及無人機產業這個部分呢要規劃這個相關的民間廠商進駐"},{"start":28524.349,"end":28527.894,"text":"那這一個部分應該就是由這個國發會他現在開發建設計畫書大概由國發會來會辦各部會在審查當中那這個會加我想國發會會來會來全權來進行"},{"start":28539.868,"end":28560.496,"text":"想請問國發會所以是主委現在是由哪一個部會接下來會進行整個產業的開發的主導?跟委員報告一下我目前不好意思我目前並沒有掌握到這個案子我們可能適不適後再來再跟您回報一下這個實際的狀況"},{"start":28562.237,"end":28591.575,"text":"所以產業園區的部分經濟部會主導嗎?現在都還沒有決議嗎?4月15號的那個還專案的這個會議還沒有決議?產業的部分喔,我不是說有中科院的部分,產業的部分。就西側的部分嗎?因為委員在關鍵的西側的部分嘛。對。西側的部分的話,大概相關的因為整個要包括各部會的一個,所以我的了解,我的了解就是"},{"start":28592.312,"end":28595.153,"text":"部長,是不是可以簡單的回應一下您所知道的部分?或者是主委?"},{"start":28622.302,"end":28642.598,"text":"沒關係,我們可以會後再討論,那我主要是希望說．現在在那個初步的會議結論當中,是協調的結果,是由國防部要來接手。那現在這個事情還沒有真的進行下去,我請顧部長再了解一下。好,謝謝院長,謝謝。對10月15日以後的這個會議,如何再繼續的執行。"},{"start":28646.001,"end":28651.884,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝,那就院長就好了,那我們繼續跟院長質詢,其他部長可以先,謝謝各部會組長,謝謝各部會組長,謝謝部長,謝謝,好,謝謝"},{"start":28659.212,"end":28676.761,"text":"院長我為什麼要針對這件事情我希望盡速的了解的狀況因為現在會出現時程的問題跟預算的問題如果我們沒有辦法在今年7月核定航太機無人機產業園區的話那就沒有辦法在114年展開建設開發所以我想我們"},{"start":28677.822,"end":28698.043,"text":"未來賴總統的這四年每一分每一秒都是我們發展開拓的一個好機會所以我不希望有任何一天讓他這個時間流失掉所以想請教院長說這樣的行程非常的緊大概剩下一個月多的時間可不可以請院長親自來來協調一下看怎麼樣可以讓他這個開發可以更加的順遂"},{"start":28699.332,"end":28722.614,"text":"您說是民雄的這個對對對就民雄我們也一直希望臺灣能夠成為亞洲民主的供應鏈在無人機的這個產業當中至少我們提供民主的而且是優質的而且是持續的所以針對這個專案的處理我想總統也是把它列為相當大的這個五大信貸產業之一所以我們一定朝這個方向來做所以剛剛國防部"},{"start":28724.889,"end":28725.149,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝"},{"start":28749.79,"end":28764.9,"text":"那第二個事情就是說經費的問題啦剛才也提到齁就是說根據財政單位的意見如果是國防部來去主導開發的話那中科院大概是要負26億負擔26億元那中科院現在已經在推動東側園區的低級工程"},{"start":28766.781,"end":28787.334,"text":"接下來還要設備的投資產線的投資我是很擔心他沒有什麼預算來去開發西邊的產業園區所以我是希望建請行政院用公共建設的預算全額去役主那邊來去辦理那邊的園區開發這部分是不是可以請院長來檢討剛剛部長有提到東側大概約25公頃西側是29公頃相關的預算東側是11億左右西側現在開發金會要達到將近70億"},{"start":28796.792,"end":28799.602,"text":"那我們會循預算的程序因為既然把它列為"},{"start":28800.427,"end":28805.971,"text":"再請院長能夠優先處理這個部分也是跟我們民雄航太園區從我們最開始的無人機的產業到我們的民雄航太園區無人機產業園區到我們現在相接養的這個民雄鐵路的高價化的部分這個部分要請院長"},{"start":28828.847,"end":28842.927,"text":"行政院是在2023年5月是有核定嘉義縣市鐵路高架化延伸計畫就是所謂的我們的民雄鐵路高架化那民雄鐵路高架化就是要跟嘉義市區的鐵路高架化來互相連結來去打造這個便利的鐵路運輸系統"},{"start":28844.368,"end":28869.614,"text":"據我的瞭解,那現在的鐵路高架進入是在基本設計的階段。那今年底送工程會審議完就可以進入細部設計的階段。那細部設計大概是半年。那接下來就是臨時軌、高架橋的工程還有民雄車站站體。院長如果整個時程如果可以順利的走下去,是不是可以在臨時軌的工程在明年的5月就可以正式開始施工?"},{"start":28870.413,"end":28870.955,"text":"是的本項計畫經費也相當龐大173億那"},{"start":28876.133,"end":28899.247,"text":"長期的目標是希望在2031年能夠交高價通車那希望大家我想交通部也在努力能夠在明年的5月讓他能夠臨時軌能夠開工這個是交通部努力的一個目標那這個工程的進行應該是順利那另外就是主體工程明年10月是不是可以來趕他盡快的來給他開工"},{"start":28901.249,"end":28924.973,"text":"我必須要強調好因為民雄的鄉親是非常期待鐵路高架化的正式的動工所以當你的第一支高架橋墩的設置你第一段臨時軌道的設置他絕對是會給整個我們這個民雄地區的民眾有很大的振奮感因為他們看到的是次世代的產業跟次世代的這些交通建設全部同時都會做好部長這可不可以請你來全力來助成我們來努力"},{"start":28925.831,"end":28926.251,"text":"接下來要請農業部跟財政部"},{"start":28942.267,"end":28958.702,"text":"院長,我們嘉義當然我是屬於山區的立法委員所以說我們的選區雖然說有10個鄉鎮但是選區面積最大是阿里山鄉那阿里山上面主要都是國有的林地所以山上最重要的就是居住權那居住權的部分"},{"start":28959.923,"end":28979.273,"text":"關於過去國有林立上面提供既有居住使用權的部分,原本行政院是打算修正濫墾地續辦清查的要點。國有林立是從58527改成各地方政府第一次非都市土地辦理使用的公告日期。"},{"start":28979.853,"end":28994.066,"text":"加一線第一次飛都的公告是75年11月1號那目前這個方案的進度呢我補充一下齁因為各部會對這個方案有疑義是因為大家的第一次飛都的公告時間是有差別的比方說我們加"},{"start":28997.83,"end":28997.85,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":29019.678,"end":29020.619,"text":"﹚發言委員"},{"start":29057.934,"end":29058.855,"text":"接下來我們請登記第42位徐宇珍委員質詢"},{"start":29078.117,"end":29078.537,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":29091.946,"end":29116.874,"text":"徐委員好 院長好 院長我想請教一下因為我們財化法已經25年都沒有修正了 所以其實地方的首長大家都叫苦連天尤其是在這個現在的我們中央跟地方的這個權限也有很大的一個改變以前在精神前的話我們其實大概比中央跟地方的產業比例大概是6比4 那現在的話大概是7.5比2.5"},{"start":29118.835,"end":29139.829,"text":"所以為了因應中央跟地方的功能的改變其實應該同步調整中央跟地方的財政分配才能達到財政公平而且能夠真正實施地方自治的一個理想那我想請問一下院長您認為財化法修正是財政問題還是政治問題?它一直是一個財政的問題"},{"start":29143.581,"end":29157.146,"text":"但是他牽扯到政治在很多的角力所以我常常說隨時分配水平分配這確實是一個難題否則不可能再推動好幾次都到最後都停下來就是因為在分配上大家"},{"start":29157.697,"end":29162.5,"text":"所以院長認為既是財政問題也是政治問題應該是財政問題但背後有政治的因素到底是財政問題還是政治問題等等給你這個答案我想在2012年的時候當時的賴清德市長他"},{"start":29178.231,"end":29202.877,"text":"他曾經講過升格五都之後其實很多的人口都往中北部去發展那其實升格之後很多的問題是升格只做一半而且相關的配套法案包括財政收支劃分法跟公債法並沒有隨同的通過當時賴清德市長也就像我們的賴總統就跟當時的行政院長陳聰說一定要拿出非過不可的決心"},{"start":29204.597,"end":29233.459,"text":"還有包括在2012年當時的我們的民進黨的這個主席蘇貞昌也說他說縣市長在編列預算的時候事實上就很像是看著嗷嗷逮捕的孩子可是米缸卻是空的甚至他說他在編預算的時候常常半夜都睡不著覺醒來是滿冒冷汗那我相信這也是現在很多縣市長的一個心聲那在2017年的12月的時候當時的行政院長也就是我們現在的賴總統"},{"start":29234.54,"end":29251.609,"text":"他開記者會說他會在2018年提出財政收支劃分法的修正草案,但是6年過去了,到目前都還沒有處理。我想其實由剛我講的這些來看的話,其實財劃法修訂就是一個政治問題。"},{"start":29252.469,"end":29272.168,"text":"所以請問院長現在賴清德總統已經當選了他過去主張修訂才化法那請問賴清德總統主張的是芭樂票還是竹竿票各位委員說明這個過去歷史上這麼多次努力的痕跡我們都記得"},{"start":29273.069,"end":29298.818,"text":"我們都記得但是為什麼沒有辦法落實下去無論執政黨是哪一黨都沒有辦法落實下去就是因為剛剛說的在分配上每個縣市都有各自不同的盤算所以造成在到最後都是停下來那歷史都是這個樣子所以我們今天要回頭看的是為什麼會產生這樣的困難各縣市的不同但是中央政府是用一般的補助款跟"},{"start":29300.139,"end":29325.456,"text":"院長您剛剛有提到嘛因為垂直分配跟水平分配的關係所以沒有辦法一直達到這個財化法修正的這個目標嘛那我跟您講一下目前我們國民黨團有提出一個版本這是國民黨邀請16個縣市所制定出來的財化法的一個修正的一個草案您可以看一下我們這個財化法的修正版本沒有藍綠之分就增加的比例來說"},{"start":29326.317,"end":29327.197,"text":"新竹市1.5倍、六都中新北增加1.3倍、台北增加0.6倍、"},{"start":29348.467,"end":29371.322,"text":"台南跟高雄在六都中的征服是居中間並沒有獨厚國民黨執政縣市的差距六都的這個比例也從61.76降到49%可以說是最能平衡城鄉差距也解決了您剛剛所提到的這個有關垂直分配跟水平分配的問題所以我想請教一下院長"},{"start":29373.322,"end":29384.888,"text":"我們可以看到國民黨版的財化法的修正有三大的重點。第一個是公平,讓各縣市的政府都能夠有最妥善的預算。"},{"start":29385.984,"end":29409.59,"text":"第二個是直接有效可以照顧全國2350萬的人民第三個可以讓整體的施政和國家發展都能夠逐步的向前那國民黨的這個版本呢我們看到的就是只有地方之福那請問行政院如果沒有辦法提出院版來的話是不是可以共同來支持我們的國民黨版的這個版本讓我們一起來幫"},{"start":29411.611,"end":29427.277,"text":"來總統實現他當院長時候的這個支票與達成在野黨這個民進黨擔任在野黨的時候的理想。院長您覺得呢?對不起委員,這樣現在的才化法的精神我們就是朝向公平有效跟促進地方發展的原則去做,已經相當多年了。"},{"start":29427.617,"end":29429.359,"text":"好,那如果院長您對修訂後的分配數有疑義的話"},{"start":29456.02,"end":29470.286,"text":"請問行政院什麼時候可以提出對案的版本進行討論?剛剛跟委員報告過現在的現行版本現行的規定法辦法就是朝向您現在說的更公平更有效而且促進地方發展而我們是用"},{"start":29471.483,"end":29491.724,"text":"一般的補助款跟統籌分配稅款跟計劃型的補助來橫屏地方的發展。這已經行之多年。那我們可以﹖議員長,也就是說您現在說的75%在中央這個是你覺得最有﹖這個最好的一個方法。那這樣的話這件事原則上不會提出這些問題。所以院長我覺得我們要其實要面對,要正視。"},{"start":29493.966,"end":29497.389,"text":"但是很多都是中央這個開支票地方買單的也很多,所以說其實這個部分我覺得還會,而且可能還會影響到的就是說,我們都還要看看這個現在院長是誰。"},{"start":29512.279,"end":29538.525,"text":"那要看到受到院長關愛的眼神才有可能得到更多的補助那有的地方可能就是奧奧代補真的是米缸空了卻沒有辦法得到相對的補助所以我覺得有一定的公式跟標準我覺得有一定的公式跟標準的話應該就比較能夠有這樣子的一個公平有效的一個財務分配的方式那當然如果行政院沒有辦法提出院版的話那如果我們的這個國民黨團的這個版本這個通過之後"},{"start":29542.687,"end":29550.497,"text":"請問行政院會不會提復議?這是假設性的問題我們現在認為現行的版本是能夠照顧到地方照顧到人民"},{"start":29551.308,"end":29572.76,"text":"那中央不會用在站在中央為利益的考量上來做任何的觸發點這一點我們希望能夠再經過合理的對話那我想其實已經溝通那麼多年那其實大部分的縣市都覺得地方的財源是不夠的所以說這個部分的話表示財化法的修正回到精神前的6比4是有非常大的空間請院長要這個好好的跟我們的這個財政部這邊來去協調出一條最好的一個方式"},{"start":29578.303,"end":29603.8,"text":"請部長說明一下我現在不用部長說明謝謝因為剛剛院長已經大概有說明了那我們再請院長看一下我們現在這個有幾個傳統的農業縣人口流失非常的嚴重包括苗栗、彰化、南投、雲林、嘉義、屏東那您知道這個農業縣的人口流失嚴重主要是因為什麼請教院長"},{"start":29607.554,"end":29608.674,"text":"其實農業線會有這樣的一個問題的話,我想主要就是因為它的財政收入啊。"},{"start":29624.258,"end":29639.394,"text":"﹗"},{"start":29639.614,"end":29666.366,"text":"我覺得修正財政收支劃分法才是最重要的另外我再請教一下院長要就較幾個國土計劃法上路之後所衍生的問題在104年12月國土計劃法立法通過之後為了確保國人的糧食安全政府也規劃全國移回戶農地的面積大概是81萬公頃這些土地不僅是生產糧食的基礎"},{"start":29667.759,"end":29693.731,"text":"更是維護國人食物安全的重要保障那這些農地因為不能夠隨意的變更所以影響農民的權益也甚巨加上這個受規範的縣市也沒有獲得合理的補償所以連帶影響農業縣市未來的發展恐怕也會造成農業縣市人口的加速的外流剛剛已經提到已經這個外流非常嚴重外漂非常嚴重"},{"start":29694.971,"end":29723.892,"text":"請問一下院長因為國土計劃法對農業的衝擊很大那現在有一些縣市也針對這個部分其實也提出很多的這個現在的問題希望能夠來改善所以會讓農業縣市有更長的時間準備也讓這些縣市有充分的可以跟這個農民溝通的一個機會請問一下我們的國土計劃法是不是能夠展延兩年讓這個計劃能夠推動得更為順利不會引起民怨"},{"start":29724.517,"end":29747.813,"text":"我們現在正在國土激發法的這個程序當中預計明年要上路那今年的6月底希望各縣市能夠報上來各縣市的計畫那現在目前來看是只有三個縣市但是我們經過跟各縣市一一的詢問之後啊剛剛我們內政部劉部長已經說過了有四個縣市嗎?可能會有四個縣市是"},{"start":29750.97,"end":29778.918,"text":"那是不是可以請問一下劉部長那如果到那個時候我們再來做考量怎麼樣來所以表示院長是覺得是不是要展言是有空間的因為還要聽聽各縣市的意見嗎那請問一下部長就是有哪四個縣市現在是會有問題其他的都沒有問題嗎包括您所關心的雲林縣是有困擾的但是我也要跟那個委員報告我們到目前為止辦了44場的這個說明會那雲林縣政府裡面的相關單位都非常清楚這個狀況我們也願意協助他"},{"start":29781.279,"end":29795.326,"text":"希望也是在6月底之前可以把這個國土功能分析計劃表送到我們內政部來做審查。因為我想雲林縣政府陳榮英剛剛講的就是很多有治案難行的問題沒有辦法解決也沒有辦法跟農民做"},{"start":29795.834,"end":29798.576,"text":"您可以看一下我們現在這個國土計劃法的這個您可以看一下我們現在雲林縣在之前提報的農醫是大概60839公頃占全國比例最高那"},{"start":29820.469,"end":29846.112,"text":"農一加農二是87,480公頃加起來也是全國最高但是您可以看到雲林縣它並不是農地面積最高的縣市最高的應該是屏東縣第二高的是台南市為什麼大部分的縣市為了發展地方盡量保留自己的壇心而目前申報最多的是雲林縣"},{"start":29847.353,"end":29867.13,"text":"當然這8萬多公頃的話將來土地只能從事農業的工作可能會影響雲林縣未來的發展所以院長在這一次我們看到農一農二的化設標準並不一致所以現在雲林縣打算參考屏東縣的版本把台塘地跟公有地化為農一私有地化為農二"},{"start":29868.231,"end":29894.184,"text":"那這樣雲林縣的這個農業面積就可以從60839公頃減為5836公頃那這樣子請問一下跟屏東縣的這個劃設標準一致那請問院長跟部長支持嗎今天答覆很多委員的隨詢就是這個劃分的標準是全國各縣市一致的不會獨厚哪一個縣市但是這個劃分的細部的這個執行請部長來說明"},{"start":29895.024,"end":29918.895,"text":"我想跟委員報告,就是我們在農醫到農務本身的化設的原則是全國一次性的。但是同樣的縣市政府也會根據他當地的一個發展跟他的一個規劃,他會做一些調整。那每一次的縣市的國土的一個審議委員會的話,我想農業部都有派員去表達我們的專業意見跟提醒。那以現在目前來講,"},{"start":29920.909,"end":29926.43,"text":"部長剛剛我請教就是說是不是既然是全國的標準應該是一致的嗎?所以雲林縣是不是可以比照這個屏東縣的方式把這個農業農業重新的"},{"start":29946.315,"end":29966.247,"text":"我剛才有說過了就是全國一致性的一個標準但是各縣市政府他會參照他們的相關的一個產業的需求那我們也會提供一個專業的意見我們會提供專業的意見如果說他畫的比例我舉個例子有一些像雲林縣也有有一些"},{"start":29967.047,"end":29992.66,"text":"這個部分因為是不是事後可以請這個部長可以把相關的資料給我我另外再請教一下院長就是在2017年的時候屏東縣長潘孟安表示40多年前的區域計畫法實施的時候屏東被劃定為農業區從此判了屏東死刑這對屏東來說很不公平那潘孟安也不滿的說新北市的農地只有6000公頃屏東卻超過8萬公頃"},{"start":29996.062,"end":30012.281,"text":"憑什麼屏東只能作為糧倉新北市的土地就能被充分利用完全不公平那我想以這個邏輯來說對雲林縣來說可能更為不公平啊所以說在國土計劃法實施之後農民農地農用算不算是特別犧牲"},{"start":30013.062,"end":30013.583,"text":"報告委員各縣市尤其是農業用地"},{"start":30032.301,"end":30033.121,"text":"您可以看一下我們的這個"},{"start":30059.208,"end":30082.706,"text":"雲林這個從業人口我們可以看到就是以這個農業縣跟工商業的都市人民的可支配所得的差異臺灣的平均是一年是94萬雲林縣則67萬低於平均的27萬跟台北市的落差更高達58.3萬所以這個部分的話我們就看到就是農業縣的收入偏低所以呢對於這個"},{"start":30083.789,"end":30086.231,"text":"您剛有提到的,不管是做什麼農業發展或什麼農業的這個,您可以看一下。"},{"start":30103.939,"end":30129.441,"text":"竹科它只有1375公頃就創造了1兆4千億的產值而雲林縣的88000公頃只能創造855億元的一個產值這就是由這個數字就可以看到區域發展的失衡跟落差所以說院長這個農業部也有說會優先投入農政資源於農醫、優蘭農地但投入什麼資源金額跟方式都沒有說清楚"},{"start":30129.761,"end":30149.178,"text":"我跟委員報告就是未來農業的次元第一個就是我們會以就是彰顯農民保護農地確保我們糧食安全的一個角度所以我們會對於環境的對綠綠色給付的部分然後用堆疊制的方式包括他的生態給付包括他種植的時候友善"},{"start":30151.298,"end":30175.926,"text":"這些的話我想都要充分的讓農民了解,他們才能夠針對國際計畫法實施之後,能夠給予更多的這個協助。讓他們更加了解。那當然我想您可以再看一下,其實請問院長知不知道我們現在的農地一公頃大概多少錢?農地?對,一公頃大概多少錢?各個地方應該不一樣吧?對,在平均來說。平均來說不一樣。"},{"start":30179.114,"end":30199.134,"text":"三到五十萬應該有吧?平均一公頃的農地大概是一千五百萬啦但是呢事實上很多我們的這個比如說越北部就像你剛講的越北部他的這個農地面積可能就更高那我有做了一個試算就是現在我們看到是農地每公頃的收入大概是12萬"},{"start":30200.495,"end":30215.965,"text":"五千九百三十六這是農地如果你種到的話但你們看一下下一張如果您是把這個原來的農地如果是因為地方的不同嗎如果是供請一千五百萬你把它拿去買台灣十年的公債"},{"start":30216.665,"end":30241.959,"text":"跟美國10年的公債大概可以是24萬到66萬當然如果你買到的農地是8千萬的話那就就更多所以你就可以看到以這個數據來說如果你是農民的話你會選擇要種水稻還是乾脆賣地買公債呢所以說希望這個部分為了照顧這個因政策受損的農民行政院能否針對受限制且有實際耕作的這個農地給予對地補償"},{"start":30245.433,"end":30252.017,"text":"我們現在在做的就是對地幾戶的部分,對地幾戶的部分在從事農業的部分,我們會有一個對別式。因為現在的對地補償好像只有一萬吧,相對的很低,那希望能夠提高這個對地補償。另外再請教一下院長,我們現在可以看到"},{"start":30269.187,"end":30289.579,"text":"全臺灣有6個縣市的老年人口的占比超過20%,依序是嘉義、臺北、南投、雲林、基隆、屏東。那我們可以看到的是現在這些縣市因為財政狀況的不同,所以說很多對老人福利都有不一樣的照顧。我們可以看到下一張目前能夠有"},{"start":30290.86,"end":30291.4,"text":"請問院長是否同意?"},{"start":30314.257,"end":30343.297,"text":"議員報告我們現在對中低收入70歲以上以及65歲以上的老人家我們都有一些補助但是如果全面的用這樣的標準來看那必須考慮到政府的財政負擔我想這幾年其實政府都超徵了幾千億所以對於這個老人健保的部分這大概幾百億我覺得對於老人照顧真的非常重要希望不要是因為生活在台灣但同樣生活在台灣卻同卡不同命"},{"start":30344.62,"end":30347.671,"text":"另外再請教一下我們的院長有關電力的問題"},{"start":30350.285,"end":30374.871,"text":"因為其實現在核電在今年的7月核三一號機就要停止運轉了在明年的5月呢這個核三二號機也會停轉那請問一下我們現在其實大家都很擔心說這缺失的6到7%的電力到底要什麼電力來補足那因為之前部長本來有提過說核能也是個選項但現在"},{"start":30376.571,"end":30383.232,"text":"請部長說明報告委員我想我時空背景但是我沒有改變但是可能是我這個之前的報告不夠精準不過我跟這個委員在這裡再報告一次我們的電是夠的怎麼夠"},{"start":30406.864,"end":30423.504,"text":"您的這個配比然後總電量跟能源配比現在目前的狀況怎麼樣?我們現在到2023年到2030年為止我們大概會下來700萬千瓦但是我們會上來910萬千瓦的電所以這些基載的電是夠的"},{"start":30425.302,"end":30438.355,"text":"那如果有一些這個我們大概有210萬千瓦但是我們如果做一些比較寬裕的這個假設同時有三個基礎降下來的話"},{"start":30439.195,"end":30455.586,"text":"因為我們現在很多的這個能源燃料99%都是靠進口嘛那如果說因為我們現在如果是從海上進口因為天候的關係可能因為像之前大陸軍演的關係可能就也沒有辦法這個進到國內來那這樣子的話就可能造成會有缺電的問題"},{"start":30456.787,"end":30475.522,"text":"所以說這個部分我們這個能源配比是不是應該要多於更多文化那也可以設法減少對進口的依賴是的院長是不是同意我們現在這個這一部分的我們有綠電在我們用風電跟光電以及除電來彌補另外一方面呢我們"},{"start":30477.144,"end":30496.316,"text":"您請問一下今年的電力夠用嗎?因為我知道你們的風電跟光電其實發電量好像都沒有達到目前的目標。所以那只是一個備載的部分。所以我們積載的部分還是一樣。我剛才跟您報告過了,我們大概這個4年會上來914萬千瓦的電,它是夠的。這個我們也根據這個市場上面的這些調查,"},{"start":30503.5,"end":30511.751,"text":"包括現在的這個AI可能會使用的這個對,剛剛講到AI,因為現在大家事實上都在爭取,各縣都在爭取AI產業到台灣來投資,可是如果以現在這樣子的看來的話,核能廚藝之後對於這個爭取AI的這個產業到台灣來,"},{"start":30523.584,"end":30540.511,"text":"我們的估計是這樣的就是過去我們用成長大概1.8%的這樣的一個成長那我們因為AI所以我們把它調到大概2.92%的這個成長方式所以這個我們的估計應該是精準的我想這個部分"},{"start":30541.278,"end":30563.297,"text":"我知道部長很有信心但是外界不管是國外、國內甚至黃仁勳執行長他其實都有這樣的疑慮所以希望政府要拿出來這樣子的一個讓我們看到臺灣是不缺電的我們真正能夠發展AI產業否則的話錯誤的能源政策沒有辦法帶領臺灣在AI產業上走得更穩"},{"start":30564.518,"end":30566.739,"text":"接下來我要請教院長是社會住宅的問題就是我們可以看到就是這個"},{"start":30594.43,"end":30612.783,"text":"賴清德總統他有一個他在競選的時候有高喊要興建社宅百萬戶但是我們現在看到的好像是變成百萬租屋租屋的家戶政策是嗎?好那這個院長您看一下現在這個賴總統的這個社會住宅25萬戶包租代管25萬戶跟租金50萬戶這樣子的這個"},{"start":30621.355,"end":30626.819,"text":"這是我們努力的目標那是不是代表我們這個租金補貼的50萬戶其實你們還沒上任就已經KPI就達標了"},{"start":30650.776,"end":30673.224,"text":"我們有討論過請部長來說明我想委員講的沒有錯誤因為租金補貼它是比較快速跟所謂的直接興建的社會住宅比較不一樣所以呢它確實是達到52萬戶以上對那就是說這個其實你這個政策訂定的其實是等於前任的就完成了嗎並不是現在才完成的也不是你們努力的目標嗎它是一個package"},{"start":30676.465,"end":30700.671,"text":"那您再看一下您剛講的這個社宅的部分喔您可以看到就是我們的這個統計表您可以往下一張就是我們現在看到的就是這是蔡政府時代的您當的25萬社宅是12萬戶是蔡政府的13萬戶是接下來賴政府你們要達成對不對可是事實上到現在蔡政府的任內還有24509戶是在規劃中的部長是嗎"},{"start":30707.013,"end":30721.001,"text":"我不曉得你講的是哪個item?就是在規劃中的有24509戶我們的估計是到年底之前盡量可以達到10萬戶到12萬戶對那就是原來的這12萬戶那25萬戶就還有另外13萬戶的話你們要在8年內也就7年內要達到這樣有辦法做到嗎?因為過去的8年其實也只完成了大概不到10萬戶"},{"start":30737.151,"end":30758.1,"text":"謝謝徐委員的關心,我們未來會改採取就是說多元的取得土地,尤其是國公有的土地,然後我們也會跟民間企業一起來合作,他是不是也願意投入興建,那用這樣多元的方向的話呢,在短時間內,也就是說也不是短時間,7年之內再完成總共連蔡政府總統在內的話呢,大概總共25萬戶還是我們的"},{"start":30759.241,"end":30768.808,"text":"的目標以目前看來的話要達到這樣的目標其實相當的不容易我們現在的目標就是希望直轄市縣市政府直轄縣市政府跟中央是一半一半"},{"start":30774.181,"end":30776.723,"text":"我們很珍惜過去8年所累積的經驗,會讓我們在這個基礎上知道該往哪個方向去展開。"},{"start":30794.974,"end":30816.937,"text":"謝謝,謝謝議員長。"},{"start":30817.117,"end":30833.651,"text":"另外還要再請教您一個有關NFT的部分我們之前在內政委員會在審查詐欺犯罪違害防治條例草案的時候本席有提到就是周杰倫的一個NFT的無聊員因為詐騙被騙了千萬那這樣的NFT的詐騙其實也層出不窮但是我們從我們的這個詐煩"},{"start":30838.815,"end":30839.615,"text":"新型的多樣化的這種"},{"start":30859.742,"end":30879.011,"text":"金融行為我們請金管會部長所以是金管會會當主管機關嗎28位委員這件事情我們在前幾天由林鄭委員負責這個案子的協調我們在過去行政院就已經指定了具有投資跟支付性質的NFT是屬於金管會主管"},{"start":30879.899,"end":30880.699,"text":"謝謝徐議政委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長的備詢。"},{"start":30905.68,"end":30906.762,"text":"接下來我們請登記第43位吳宗憲委員質詢。"},{"start":30928.014,"end":30934.781,"text":"謝謝院長,那我想麻煩行政院院長及經濟部長上台再請卓院長經濟部備選委員好"},{"start":30950.43,"end":30977.88,"text":"院長好部長好午安先在這邊跟院長說明一下就是說這是第一次跟您在國會上面質詢是的您是法律人的前輩所以在這邊也很高興也很榮幸能夠在這邊能夠對院長質詢那我也希望說接下來的4年我們可以用一個比較理性、科學的態度"},{"start":30978.534,"end":30979.365,"text":"去面對所有的問題"},{"start":30980.268,"end":31008.663,"text":"我們在辯論上面能夠有多元那彼此尊重的方式來對一些公共議題能夠比較理性的討論希望說接下來的時間我們都能夠這樣子能夠很理性的討論很多事情不流於說一般比較口水的那個爭辯我是比較希望這樣因為我一直以來我覺得就是公共政策他能夠順利執行其實這是一個非常重要那我從小我就一直覺得"},{"start":31010.086,"end":31035.225,"text":"我很喜歡李韻大同篇的那個說法就是對於這個社會就是勞有所終、壯有所用、幼有所長、關寡孤獨、廢棄者皆有所養。所以說我們對於這個社會上面的人不管是老人、年輕人、小孩、弱勢團體都要照顧到。我覺得這才是一個最棒的一個政府該做的事情。當然這也是我一直以來我的想法。"},{"start":31035.925,"end":31047.273,"text":"那只要今天政府做的方向是朝這個方向去即使不同政黨我們也是全力支持這是我個人的一個想法那我想說在"},{"start":31048.466,"end":31075.218,"text":"這段時間其實擔任過民進黨主席又擔任院長的人其實不多那您一直以來有一個就是大師兄的稱號早期是說是謝系大師兄後來是民進黨大師兄其實我是期待將來您變成是全民的大師兄就是一個真正照顧我們全台灣人民的一個大師兄這是我一直希望說將來可以這樣子朝這個方向去邁進那其實這段時間呢"},{"start":31077.928,"end":31095.908,"text":"我是希望行政院還是能夠恪守行政中立的這個概念那最近大家比較有衝突的大概就是一個國會上面的問題當然我也是尊重行政院的一些想法但是我也是希望說行政院也是盡量不要說寧可跟國會對抗衝撞"},{"start":31099.053,"end":31099.093,"text":"國會改革"},{"start":31119.464,"end":31147.773,"text":"行政院所認定的其實都是有一些出路那在世界上的大部分的民主國家其實國會有相關的權限他是一個正常的運作那反而是沒有的話是變一個比較畸形的國會所以其實我們是一直希望說把台灣的國會朝向一個正常的民主國家國會方向去走讓那個立法權能夠有效的監督行政權其實這次國會改革我們的理想是這樣子並不是說"},{"start":31149.482,"end":31164.237,"text":"要去造成一些衝撞更何況說今天其實在座有很多部會首長當年在當立委的時候他們也有相同的提案那我自己在做那個草案的時候我也參考了非常多這邊的前輩的提案所以我還是希望說"},{"start":31165.615,"end":31179.504,"text":"行政院在運作上面能夠秉持的行政中立然後大家一起來為這個國家做一點事情以上只是說第一次跟您見面提了一些開場接下來我想說請教一些問題"},{"start":31181.005,"end":31197.691,"text":"小問題到大問題,一些跟您請教一下。第一個我想跟您請教的部分大概就是,其實民進黨執政這9年,其實有一些房價暴漲或者是物價通膨的一些問題。"},{"start":31199.264,"end":31228.392,"text":"那蔡政府呢,她執政的這段時間裡面其實最被大家詬病的幾個問題大概就是第一個,高房價不管是年輕人或中老年人其實都會高房價所煩惱我自己也是在台北租房子租好我也買不起台北的房子那還有社會住宅蓋不夠所以這些問題一直以來政府說要打房然後我想請教一下院長請問一下現在房價到底是往上還是往下"},{"start":31230.937,"end":31242.023,"text":"每個地區啊,每個區域它有不同的環境因素。那以像開發比較快的幾個地區,比如說科技園區的周遭,那漲的速度確實是超乎大家的意料之外。"},{"start":31243.246,"end":31263.045,"text":"我們不去論特定的小區因為您現在是行政院院長主管理是全國嘛那我想請教一下全國目前房價是往上還是往下?整體來講土地的資源有限在做人民對土地的需求的過程當中房價要它明顯的往下降除非是有很重大的社會因素"},{"start":31263.545,"end":31290.632,"text":"甚至一個動盪的因素否則是比較少見到這樣那我現在給您看一個那個相關的資料其實呢我們從這個數據上面來看其實這幾年漲幅非常高那以台北市來說好了台北市現在新建案的單價已經直逼120萬那這個價格其實是非常驚人我想院長一定也認同而且這個較4年前的漲幅是增加那個30%"},{"start":31292.52,"end":31316.154,"text":"那美萍就說貴了30萬那像台南跟高雄因為他們有一些科技業的話題的加持所以像橋頭、楠梓這些地方甚至漲到五成以上所以這個其實很驚人那以現在大部分的人其實他你也知道我們現在台灣的薪資所得的中位數只有50萬上下而已"},{"start":31316.837,"end":31341.517,"text":"那相對這個中位數是50%的人的薪資所得的中位數只有到每年差不多就50萬上下但是他必須面對不管是台北市或是任何一個鄉下地方的房價其實這都是高不可攀但是這個會造成非常多人他生活品質受影響或是他對於未來沒有希望我想高房價是一個很大的一個問題"},{"start":31342.845,"end":31362.723,"text":"甚至有很多人說,即使現在年薪百萬的人買房子也幾乎是不可能的事,尤其以台北市來說。你看我們剛剛講的一坪單價到120萬,假設我年薪百萬扣掉正常的支出,其實我要買房子幾乎是一件不可能的事。"},{"start":31363.55,"end":31379.758,"text":"所以我想請教一下民進黨政府這段時間最引以為傲的住房政策會不會變成是炒房的一個元兇所以想請問一下院長您知道民進黨的什麼政策反而推升了現在房價往上飆"},{"start":31380.968,"end":31403.79,"text":"謝謝委員我應該很清楚委員講的是什麼政策但是我是說從土地資源的有限以及建築成本的增加房價的高漲這個是政府已經早就看到所以我們推出社會住宅我們推出百萬社會住宅的這樣的一個政策我們也從利息的補貼租金的補貼那您所說的大概就是現在最近在討論的這個"},{"start":31405.492,"end":31417.309,"text":"新青安的立即補貼那這個部分我們已經在內部的討論也經過大家的一個思考那是不是要做一些怎麼樣的政策的調整讓他不要成為"},{"start":31419.076,"end":31424.759,"text":"當然就是說也許民進黨當初他為了一些年輕人的選票他推出了這個新清安政策也不是說完全沒有道理但是呢"},{"start":31448.364,"end":31469.913,"text":"上有政策下有對策嘛就有人會去鑽這些政策的漏洞所以這個一定需要行政院去把它補起來那這一段時間呢有一些年輕人很勇敢的去買房但是也有一些人他用人頭去貸款去買來租別人或是做一些其他的經濟上面的運作嘛所以這個部分可能你們還是要一定要把它處理好齁"},{"start":31470.609,"end":31492.387,"text":"因為其實我們看從歷史來看美國日本他都曾經因為房貸的問題引起過金融危機我是不希望說這一塊發生在台灣尤其是我們這邊的經濟實力有沒有那麼強可以去應付到一波很嚴重的金融風暴這是我比較擔心的地方因為現在你也知道台灣的貧富差距其實也不小"},{"start":31493.987,"end":31522.325,"text":"也不想,所以說我剛剛提的新知中位數,因為我不喜歡,為什麼一直要談這句話,因為太多人,太多政治人物喜歡講新知平均數,我覺得那個平均數是騙人的,要看是要看新知的中位數,所有內部統計學員都懂。所以以現在的全民的那個新知的中位數來看,其實人民其實是辛苦的,相較於物價相較於房價,我想麻煩院長你要注意這個部分。"},{"start":31523.203,"end":31548.556,"text":"那我也跟您報告就是其實這個新清安房貸啊他現在在五大銀行裡面是將近四成的房貸都是新清安那這個會不會造成另外一個風險那是不是造成房價的推升也是要麻煩你們研究一下那我是不是可以要求院長這邊呢是不是可以做一個全面的住宅政策的規劃"},{"start":31550.018,"end":31550.538,"text":"房地合一2.0"},{"start":31567.128,"end":31593.662,"text":"或者是那種百萬社會財或是新清安這個其實邏輯上有一點衝突嘛有的是叫你租有的是叫你買邏輯上有一點小衝突啦當然你可能是說針對不同族群提供不同的政策但是我比較希望就是可不可以提出一個比較在下一次總諮詢前提出一個比較明確的方向能夠讓我們知道一下那個方向是包括到把一些現有發現的漏洞把它補起來"},{"start":31594.175,"end":31622.853,"text":"包括新金安這個政策他出原意當然是好的執行也有一定的成效只是現在的過程當中被一些有心的錯用的一些後來的發展那也已經請內政部我相關的金融單位也在全面的檢查這個事情當中那至於說新的社宅的政策內政部也有一些新的構想我們會逐步的把它跟社會來說明那過程當中也希望委員能夠多多指教下一次執行前能夠給我們一個比較明確的"},{"start":31623.735,"end":31645.19,"text":"的作法這樣我們才會依循嘛就知道接下來要怎麼做好那另外呢我想請教一下就是有關房價之外其實大家更思考的就是物價的問題因為CPI它是最近的漲幅是很高嘛那我們去看齁主計處它2月下旬它本來是預計是上漲1.85"},{"start":31646.871,"end":31663.287,"text":"結果呢後來因為那個電價調漲的發案一出爐他後來就是預測是到2.03結果呢到5月的時候就是今年6月6號他發布5月的物價調查發現竟然高達2.24那其實這個已經突破那個2%的這個通膨警戒線"},{"start":31669.79,"end":31695.327,"text":"那我想我覺得這個通膨不管在全世界都是大家害怕的一個怪獸啊。我們的薪資沒有漲的情況下其實通膨一直漲等於是他實質購買力都下降。所以他實質所得也是下降的。那這樣對國人其實傷害是不小啦。那我之前在就是本期之前在那個國是論壇的時候其實有提到因為當時在講電價到底要不要漲。"},{"start":31696.207,"end":31714.967,"text":"那當然電價牽動到我國的能源政策嘛那時候我就其實有提到以現在電價條漲的話一定是萬物齊漲這個都連想都不用想一定會造成萬物齊漲說不會漲那個都是騙人的甚至政府有一些"},{"start":31715.855,"end":31743.011,"text":"前面的政府對外面說影響不大那個電費調漲也不大對你們都不會有影響這個也是騙人的嘛因為我家的家用電沒有調漲問題是我買的每一個產品它的整個供應鏈的電費都調漲了我家沒有漲物價還是會漲啊所以這樣子跟人民說沒有影響我覺得這個講這句話有點不負責任那當然跟院長您無關"},{"start":31744.625,"end":31772.55,"text":"我一直不認為說這個是應該這麼對外說一個負責任的政府應該是一個誠信的政府做對做錯都要承認那我自己對我個人的要求是我做錯事我就認錯我會很快跟人家道歉那我也希望說將來我面對的一個政府是這樣子好那那個我再請教院長我們提到物價飆漲這個部分院長你知不知道現在一顆蛋在外面售價多少錢就是在小吃店"},{"start":31773.635,"end":31797.979,"text":"我家人知道多少錢嗎?10塊到15塊吧?對,現在差不多15塊,院長你真是蠻了解的。但是產地價生雞蛋的產地價其實一斤跌到20幾塊。所以這個發生了一個問題就是我在小吃店買一顆蛋,它的價格等於是生產地的幾乎是半斤的價格了。"},{"start":31799.465,"end":31814.365,"text":"那其實呢我自己觀察啦我自己覺得這個可能這個是跟院長您無關啦我是個人我自己研究我是覺得是跟前任的那個農業部陳吉仲部長比較有關聯性因為他的農業政策是"},{"start":31815.406,"end":31840.774,"text":"補貼啦,他的農業政策不是做產銷的調控反正他什麼出什麼事就,院長沒關係這不是你的論點這是我的論點我認為說我每次看到他就是補貼補貼補貼哪裡出包就哪裡補貼他從來不是做產銷的調控那他也不是做那種長期的那種農糧政策的規劃所以搞到現在反正出了事情就撒錢就好了那他沒有想到很多東西起來之後物價是回不去的"},{"start":31841.614,"end":31852.976,"text":"現在變成是我剛講的小吃店一顆蛋15塊結果他可以相當於買產地的半斤那從產地生產之後一路"},{"start":31854.81,"end":31878.357,"text":"那個銷售到小吃店那加上成本什麼其實我覺得應該不是這麼高更何況現在雞蛋價已經跌到成本價以下所以很多人寧願把雞蛋拿去餵豬拿去丟掉他也不願意拿出來賣所以這是一個問題那請問一下你們現在對於這個那個這些通膨啊這些物價穩定物價小組到底還有沒有實際在運作"},{"start":31880.258,"end":31901.477,"text":"當然有,這是很重要的一環。我們看看CPI雖然到2.43左右,超過了大家心裡比較安心的2,這個數字已經超越,但是我們是在嚴密的監控當中,這可能也有季節性的。那至於說剛剛委員提到農業對農民的補助,我覺得部長有一句名言,農民不是補助。"},{"start":31903.719,"end":31922.947,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實農業是對農民來講他是一個專業而且是要被尊敬的一個產業,他不是靠補助而過活的一個產業,所以未來農業的部分我想我們會真正的從整個產業的一個轉型跟升級來提高農民所得。"},{"start":31925.37,"end":31950.359,"text":"呃OK那這樣就麻煩你們再多注意一下尤其是盡量不要再有什麼斑斑吃食斑啊那種那種日子在線啦因為不能把小朋友或軍人拿來當作去消耗這些農產品的這個這些人嘛齁這樣子是不太對的好那其實齁因為我為什麼問這個問題因為我們這個小組的官網啊他最新的版最新版的資料還是113年4月30號下午4點30分由那個呃"},{"start":31954.621,"end":31982.408,"text":"正副院長他主持的會議所以這個部分我在想說是不是怎麼都沒有在運作那可能再麻煩你們再稍微注意一下那也要注意一下這個通膨的一個問題我們請部長先回去交通部長跟國防部長麻煩交通部長跟國防部長麻煩交通部、國防部兩位部長"},{"start":31984.071,"end":32002.803,"text":"接下來我想請教一下一個問題,大概就是這幾天比較熱門的一個小問題,也不是小問題,大問題。就是這個軟性男子,中國籍的軟性男子,他駕船跑到淡水河口待了51分鐘都沒有被發現。"},{"start":32006.693,"end":32016.473,"text":"這個跟民進黨的主軸抗中保台其實有一點點有一點衝突耶因為你既然要抗中保台那你就要強化我們的防守能力啊"},{"start":32017.759,"end":32043.693,"text":"沒有那你強化防守能力的情況下怎麼會讓一艘船跑到淡水河口51分鐘卻沒有被發現因為這個是電影裡面才會出現的情節齁那雖然有懲處那請問一下那有沒有新的什麼措施啊有沒有新將來要怎麼預防這種事情報告委員我們已經啟動了原來已經啟動了司法的調查行政調查海委會也全部在啟動他已經做了處置了"},{"start":32043.933,"end":32044.073,"text":"根委員報告"},{"start":32060.249,"end":32081.684,"text":"事實上各國的coast guard都面對同樣的挑戰那我們當然會要求我們的海巡的同仁要零漏接但是零漏接是非常大的挑戰以韓國來講在韓國的泰安港也是中國的一艘小艇載了6個人結果在泰安港上岸了以後第5天才逮捕到第1個人"},{"start":32082.765,"end":32104.611,"text":"那當然這一次的漏接是人為的疏失我們真的是完全不容許但是我跟委員報告我主要是要跟委員報告說第一個我們在談這件事情的時候請委員也共同給我們的海巡一個支持的力量他仍然是我們的捍衛人士沒關係那我要說你的是新的措施"},{"start":32110.013,"end":32134.181,"text":"我昨天還在立法院裡面幫錦霄海巡在那邊爭取他的所得替代率欸我怎麼會不愛他們對,請委員因為我很需要說明這一點之後那請大家放心因為必須請大家放心說這是一個非常值得信賴的捍衛海疆的部隊這是安定民心的一個非常重要的心理基礎"},{"start":32135.342,"end":32151.855,"text":"主委,那這個部分我是提一個想法啦,就是說,因為我大概這個部分我覺得是不是說他這個在辨識上面的一些問題,對不對?所以我們很希望在辨識上有新的措施。目前交通部這邊對於這個法規是只有20種度以上才需要去設那個AIS系統,對不對?"},{"start":32160.342,"end":32179.092,"text":"好那現在有一個我有幾個想法就我不知道說你們有沒有將來有沒有這個政策就是如果這個狀況會發生的話那是不是將來20總頓以下的小漁船要不要用修法的方式也要求他們要去裝這個AIS的辨識系統"},{"start":32181.648,"end":32198.311,"text":"還會不會有提出這樣的想法就AIS熱像儀如果能夠裝置在29小的漁船上面的話那這次的事件或許他就可以察覺出來他並非我們自己的船貨所以真的這一點還有已經提出他的檢討的說明但是現在就是我們要後續"},{"start":32199.093,"end":32199.753,"text":"有關20噸以下的小船要來裝攜帶式的AIS這一點"},{"start":32214.701,"end":32240.094,"text":"﹚國會議員"},{"start":32240.254,"end":32240.474,"text":"總部長﹗總部長﹗"},{"start":32266.818,"end":32284.385,"text":"我跟委員報告就是20噸以下的漁船的部分大概有9000多艘然後還有有一些是裝馬達的那個漁船漁法叫CTR的部分也9000多艘那農業部已經之前就開始補助這些"},{"start":32291.528,"end":32310.898,"text":"我們也跟海委會這邊有做一些通盤的監討從國安的角度來講應該要讓每個漁船都裝的話這樣辨識度會比較高我們會朝這個目標來努力那我也是覺得就是避免這個狀況發生其實是可以思考到這些小船是不是也要強制他們裝第二個就是我思考到的既然一艘船可以跑進來"},{"start":32314.54,"end":32314.7,"text":"這不重要齁?"},{"start":32339.281,"end":32366.988,"text":"我再跟委員報告,就在月底連國外都會一起來肯定我們的企讀能力,我們還會有新的成績。主委我們今天不是談企讀,我當夾瓜我還拿過全國企讀的獎。不要把這件事票要成,不要把這件事票要成國品槍枝,國品槍枝會長期不入。不會的,不會的。那我們現在談另外一個問題,既然你們剛剛說那AIS系統我們可能要往小船上面去"},{"start":32367.788,"end":32370.149,"text":"對海巡來講是很重要的一個問題,我們希望"},{"start":32396.842,"end":32422.956,"text":"法規來去強制說不可以這樣做好那這部分呢可能再麻煩你們瞭解一下這幾個問題第一個就是小船到底要不要裝第二個就是裝了以後它是不是裝能夠辨識為臺灣的船隻而不是每一次都以為是大陸的船隻靠近這部分再麻煩你們跟委員報告一件事情這一次我們在六海裡就發現這艘船這是確實的所以我們的監控系統是看得到它的"},{"start":32423.456,"end":32443.613,"text":"但是海委會認為這是一個人為上的疏失判定上的疏失所以我們要跟台灣國人講的是這個人為上的疏失也有請海委會如何去斷絕這種人為上的疏失加緊訓練加緊他的警覺性問題出來了就麻煩解決好謝謝接下來我們請國防沒關係我再請教一個問題就是"},{"start":32447.007,"end":32459.991,"text":"院長您知不知道那個2022年那個漢光38號軍演他的主要目的是哪個部分?2022年還是2024年?就是漢光38號?今年是40號你講的是38號他主要的那個的假設是中國他用那個氣墊艇"},{"start":32474.239,"end":32489.147,"text":"然後從淡水河口就是進入我們國家的那個政軍中樞嘛那我想請教一下因為參酌到這一次發生的事情我想請問就是國防部這邊將來會不會有什麼因應的做法"},{"start":32489.98,"end":32517.725,"text":"因為啊這些如果氣墊船他全速衝到那個大稻埕碼頭的話我們如果從淡水河口來算大概大概15分鐘左右就會衝到了嘛那我當然有看到就是報紙有報導說那有一個做法就是把那個關路大橋炸掉來讓這個氣墊船無法進來這也是其中一項做法這沒有這沒有問題但是如果將來有類似像這種用小船快艇進來的時候也許這個"},{"start":32518.305,"end":32518.665,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":32542.95,"end":32563.765,"text":"我們要區分出所謂灰色地帶的洗澡跟真正的從事這個軍事侵略這個行動兩個作為是不一樣的所以整個如果你想的是他整個氣墊船從淡水河口進來的話這是已經進入到軍事侵略的一個階段"},{"start":32565.192,"end":32575.746,"text":"這樣子的相關的一個部署的作為包括我們的海軍包括我們的這個相關的這些雷達的這個系統都勤監生都會啟動"},{"start":32577.045,"end":32603.193,"text":"那在淡水的河口相關的佈置都會有適切的冰火力,然後會編組戰略部隊來應處這樣的一個狀況。但是詳細的部署,我想我不宜在這邊講。我想這一塊我在將來我再跟您請教,我想有一些東西也許公開場合也不適合去提,甚至私下也不適合告訴我,這我都可以理解。那我再請教一下就是這個院長,"},{"start":32604.437,"end":32628.315,"text":"最近常常大家講說第5縱隊,主委可以先回去了,第5縱隊這個啊,甚至到有官員也都出來去附和這句話。那我想請問一下,如果照大家所說的,台灣有10萬個第5縱隊的人數,那這個不是一個很荒謬的事嗎?10萬人你運作要多少經費啊?那部長、院長你怎麼會?"},{"start":32629.929,"end":32656.529,"text":"就是底下的官員有的還附和這個民事和三立的這個報導然後他內文還寫到說所有兩岸情勢的官員透露出這個這個10萬人的這件事情那我覺得這個是不是有一個狀況就是要嘛你就叫我們的我們的國安局或誰去把這些人弄出來抓出來嘛要嘛你就應該叫NCC去管好這些媒體不要亂報嘛所以"},{"start":32658.871,"end":32673.86,"text":"你之前在當主席的時候啊其實你也有提過一個東西啊你就說如果這個NCC無法加強管理就要換個人甚至改變體制那今天發生這個狀況你說我們第五縱隊有什麼"},{"start":32674.66,"end":32689.686,"text":"十萬人結果你底下的官員還去跟人家附和這一句話結果你人也不抓十萬人你總抓個五百人出來嘛人也不抓然後NCC也不管那我實在不知道這個跟你當初的想法怎麼會差距那麼遠我覺得啦齁"},{"start":32690.646,"end":32719.343,"text":"包括像NCC對那個王逸川他這次提到的這個手機監控這個齁NCC要做行政調查說這個我也完全對NCC沒有任何信任度了也不期待啦齁但是我是希望一件事如果照院長您之前當黨主席時候的說NCC管不好那就換人甚至改變體制那也請院長齁能夠支持我們這次對於NCC組織法的的修正好啦那最後齁那個"},{"start":32720.901,"end":32744.309,"text":"請那個外交部長我想請問一下那個外交部長跟國防部長兩位當初在國會改革法案的時候是不是也有提過爭取聽證權、調查權跟這個法環還有刑責的設計是或不是就可以我想內容是不一樣的"},{"start":32745.888,"end":32763.385,"text":"但是有只是你認為不一樣沒關係因為挑問我大概都是跟各位的差不多好那還是這樣謝謝各位吳宗憲委員因為是外交部田次長部長請假現在是次長好的好的你要什麼書面資料的話謝謝吳宗憲委員執行謝謝卓院長的備詢"},{"start":32767.062,"end":32783.852,"text":"報告委員會本日排定的質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。非常謝謝卓院長、政府院長以及各部會首長列席答詢。6月18日星期二上午9時我們繼續開會進行施政方針報告之質詢。現在休息。"}]}},{"id":"154050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c018576e643b74f3fb2175b353bd3059915546a63521c4604b1fc252cafd17ebecc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"17:05:37 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17:36:28","影片長度":"00:30:51","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T17:05:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T17:36:28+08:00","duration":1851,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":615,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（17時5分）謝謝院長。我想麻煩行政院院長及經濟部長上臺。"],["主席：再請卓院長、經濟部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長好、部長好，午安。先在這邊跟院長說明一下，這是第一次跟您在國會上面質詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["吳委員宗憲：您是法律人的前輩……"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢當。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以在這邊也很高興、也很榮幸能夠對院長質詢。我也希望接下來的4年我們可以用一個比較理性、科學的態度去面對所有的問題，讓我們在辯論上面能夠有多元、彼此尊重的方式，來對於一些公共議題進行比較理性的討論，我希望接下來的時間我們都能夠很理性地討論很多事情，不流於一般比較口水的爭辯，我是比較希望這樣。因為一直以來，我覺得公共政策能夠順利執行，其實這是一件非常重要的事，我從小就很喜歡禮運大同篇的說法，對於這個社會，就是「老有所終，壯有所用，幼有所長，矜寡孤獨廢疾者，皆有所養。」所以我們對於社會上的人，不管是老人、年輕人、小孩、弱勢團體都要照顧到，我覺得這才是一個最棒的政府該做的事情。當然這也是我一直以來的想法，只要今天政府的方向是朝這個方向，即使不同政黨，我們也是全力支持，這是我個人的想法。","我想擔任過民進黨主席又擔任院長的人其實不多，您一直以來都有一個大師兄的稱號，早期說是謝系大師兄，後來是民進黨大師兄，其實我是期待將來您能夠變成全民的大師兄，就是一個真正照顧我們全臺灣人民的大師兄，這是我一直希望的，也就是將來可以朝這個方向來邁進。","其實這段時間，我是希望行政院還是能夠恪守行政中立的概念，最近大家比較有衝突的大概就是國會方面的問題，當然我也是尊重行政院的一些想法，但是我也希望行政院儘量不要說寧可跟國會對抗、衝撞……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：也不溝通，或是要求多數要服從少數，我是希望不要這樣子，其實從這次國會改革的狀況來看，不管從民調的數字來看，或是立法院內表決的結論來看，其實跟行政院所認定的都有一些出入，在世界上大部分的民主國家，其實國會有相關的權限，它是一個正常的運作，反而沒有的話，是變成一個比較畸形的國會。所以我們一直希望把臺灣的國會朝向一個正常民主國家國會的方向去走，讓立法權能夠有效地監督行政權，其實這次國會改革，我們的理想是這樣，並不是要去造成一些衝撞。更何況其實今天在座有很多部會首長當年在當立委的時候，他們也有相同的提案，我自己在擬草案的時候也參考了這邊非常多前輩的提案。所以我還是希望行政院在運作上面能夠秉持著行政中立，然後大家一起來為這個國家做一點事情。","以上只是因為第一次跟您見面，所以提了一些開場。","接下來，我想請教一些問題，從小問題到大問題跟您請教一下。第一個，我想跟您請教的部分，民進黨執政這9年其實有一些房價暴漲或者是物價通膨問題，蔡政府執政的這段時間裡面，最被大家詬病的幾個問題大概就是，第一個，高房價，不管是年輕人或中老年人，其實都為高房價所煩惱，我自己也是在臺北租房子住，我也買不起臺北的房子！另外還有社會住宅蓋不夠。針對這些問題，一直以來政府說要打房，我想請教一下院長，請問一下現在房價到底是往上還是往下？"],["卓院長榮泰：每個地區、每個區域有不同的環境因素……"],["吳委員宗憲：那以全臺灣……"],["卓院長榮泰：開發比較快的幾個地區，比方說科技園區的周遭，漲的速度確實超乎大家的意料之外。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們不去論特定的小區，因為您現在是行政院院長，管理的是全國嘛，我想請教一下，全國目前的房價是往上還是往下？"],["卓院長榮泰：整體來講，土地的資源有限，在人民對土地需求的過程當中，要房價明顯的往下降，除非是有很重大的社會因素，甚至一個動盪的因素，否則是比較少見到這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我現在給您看一個相關的資料，我們從這個數據上面來看，其實這幾年漲幅非常高，以臺北市來說，臺北市現在新建案的單價已經直逼120萬，這個價格其實是非常驚人，我想院長一定也認同啦！而且這個較4年前的漲幅是增加30%，每坪貴了30萬；像臺南跟高雄，因為他們有一些科技業話題的加持，所以像橋頭、楠梓這些地方甚至漲到五成以上，這個其實很驚人！","以現在大部分的人來說，你也知道，我們現在臺灣的薪資所得中位數只有50萬上下而已，這個中位數是50%的人的薪資所得中位數，每年差不多只有50萬上下，但是他必須面對，不管是臺北市或是任何一個鄉下地方的房價，其實都是高不可攀！這個會造成非常多人的生活品質受影響，或是他對於未來沒有希望，我想高房價是一個很大的問題！甚至也有很多人說，即使現在是年薪百萬的人，買房子也幾乎是不可能的事，尤其以臺北市來說，你看我們剛剛講的，一坪單價到120萬，假設我年薪百萬、扣掉正常的支出，其實我要買房子也幾乎是一件不可能的事！","所以我想請教一下，民進黨政府這段時間最引以為傲的住房政策會不會變成是炒房的元凶啊？想請問一下院長，您知道民進黨的什麼政策反而推升了現在房價往上飆？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我應該很清楚委員講的是什麼政策，但是從土地資源的有限以及建築成本的增加，有關房價的高漲，這個是政府已經早就看到，所以我們推出百萬社會住宅這樣一個政策，我們也實施利息的補貼、租金的補貼。至於您所說的，大概就是最近在討論的新青安利息補貼，這個部分我們內部的討論也經過大家的思考，是不是要做一些怎麼樣的政策調整，讓它不要成為房價上漲……其實房價上漲是千百個理由啦，它可能是其中一項，但是如果可能，我們就善用這樣的工具，讓它能夠合理地真正幫助到需要的人，而不是在市場上轉售、轉手，造成第二次不公平，這個我們從制度上來檢討！"],["吳委員宗憲：是。也許民進黨當初為了一些年輕人的選票推出了這個新青安政策，也不是說完全沒有道理，但是上有政策、下有對策，就有人會去鑽這些政策的漏洞，所以這個一定需要行政院去把它補起來。這一段時間有一些年輕人很勇敢地去買房，但是也有一些人用人頭去貸款、去買來租別人，或是做一些其他經濟上面的運作，所以這個部分你們還是一定要把它處理好。","其實我們從歷史來看，美國、日本都曾經因為房貸的問題引起過金融危機，我是不希望這一塊發生在臺灣，尤其我們這邊的經濟實力有沒有那麼強，可以去應付一波很嚴重的金融風暴，這是我比較擔心的地方，因為你也知道現在臺灣的貧富差距其實也不小。我剛剛提的薪資中位，為什麼我一直要談這句話？因為太多人、太多政治人物喜歡講薪資平均數，我覺得那個平均數是騙人的，要看是要看薪資的中位數，所有念過統計學的人都懂，所以以現在全民的薪資中位數來看，人民其實是辛苦的，相較於物價、相較於房價，我想麻煩院長你要注意這個部分。","我也跟您報告，這個新青安房貸現在在五大銀行裡面，將近四成的房貸都是新青安，那這個會不會造成另外一個風險？是不是會造成房價的推升？也是要麻煩你們研究一下。我是不是可以要求院長這邊做一個全面住宅政策的規劃？就是朝向讓人民買得起房子，還是你要把強化社會宅的速度增快？下一次總質詢之前能不能給我們一個比較明確的方向？因為我必須跟各位報告，房地合一2.0或者是百萬社會宅或是新青安，這個其實邏輯上有一點衝突，有的是叫你租、有的是叫你買，邏輯上有一點小衝突啦！當然你可能是針對不同族群提供不同的政策，但是我比較希望看可不可以在下一次總質詢前提出一個比較明確的方向，讓我們知道一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員……"],["吳委員宗憲：那個方向是包括把一些現有發現的漏洞補起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：包括新青安這個政策，其原意當然是好的，執行也有一定的成效，只是現在的過程當中被一些有心的、錯用的後來的發展，也已經請內政部相關的金融單位全面檢查這件事情當中，至於新的社宅政策，內政部也有一些新的構想，我們會逐步的把它跟社會說明，過程當中也希望委員能夠多多指教。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝院長，就是下一次質詢前能夠給我們一個比較明確的作法，這樣我們才可以依循嘛！就知道接下來要怎麼做。","另外我想請教一下，除了房價之外，其實大家更思考的就是物價的問題，因為CPI最近的漲幅很高，我們去看主計處在2月下旬時本來是預計上漲1.85%，結果後來因為電價調漲的方案一出爐，它後來預測是到2.03%，結果今年6月6號它發布5月的物價調查，發現竟然高達2.24%，其實這個已經突破2%的通膨警戒線。","我覺得不管是在全世界哪裡，通膨其實都是大家害怕的一個怪獸，我們的薪資沒有漲的情況下，通膨一直漲，等於是民眾的實質購買力都下降，實質薪資所得也是下降的，這樣對國人的傷害其實是不小啦！本席之前在國是論壇的時候其實有提到，因為當時在講電價到底要不要漲，當然電價牽動到我國的能源政策，那時候我就有提到，現在電價調漲的話，一定是萬物齊漲，這個都連想都不用想，一定會造成萬物齊漲，說不會漲那個都是騙人的！甚至前面的政府對外面說影響不大，電費調漲也不大，對你們都不會有影響，這個也是騙人的嘛！因為雖然我家的家用電沒有調漲，問題是我買的每一個產品其整個供應鏈的電費都調漲了，我家沒有漲，但物價還是會漲啊！所以這樣子跟人民說沒有影響，我覺得講這句話有點不負責任，當然這跟院長無關啦！但我一直認為不應該這麼對外說，因為一個負責任的政府應該是一個有誠信的政府，做對、做錯都要承認，我自己對我個人的要求是我做錯事，我就認錯，我會很快跟人家道歉，我也希望將來我面對的政府是這樣子。","我再請教院長，我們提到物價飆漲的部分，院長你知不知道現在一顆蛋在外面售價多少錢？就是小吃店售價多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：10塊到15塊。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，現在其實差不多15塊，院長真的是蠻瞭解的，但是生雞蛋的產地價其實一斤跌到二十幾塊，所以這裡發生了一個問題，就是我在小吃店買一顆蛋，它的價格幾乎等於是生產地的半斤價格了。我自己觀察，我覺得這個跟院長無關啦！我是個人自己研究，我覺得是跟前任的農業部陳吉仲部長比較有關聯性，因為他的農業政策是補貼，他的農業政策不是做產銷的調控，反正他出什麼事……這跟院長沒關係，這不是你的論點，這是我的論點，我認為我每次看到他，就是補貼、補貼、補貼，哪裡出包就哪裡補貼，他從來不是做產銷的調控，也不是做長期的農糧政策規劃，所以搞到現在，反正出了事情撒錢就好了，但他沒有想到很多東西起來之後物價是回不去的，現在就變成是我剛剛講的，小吃店一顆蛋15塊，結果它相當於可以買產地的半斤。從產地生產之後，一路銷售到小吃店，加上成本什麼的，其實我覺得應該不是這麼高，更何況現在雞蛋價已經跌到成本價以下，所以很多人寧願把雞蛋拿去餵豬、拿去丟掉，也不願意拿出來賣，所以這是一個問題啦！請問一下，你們現在對於這些通膨、物價，穩定物價小組到底還有沒有實際在運作？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有，這是很重要的一環啦！我們看到CPI雖然到2.43%左右，超過了大家心裡……"],["吳委員宗憲：其實蠻高的。"],["卓院長榮泰：比較安心的2%，這個數字已經超越了，但是我們一直在嚴密地監控當中，這可能也有季節性的因素。至於剛剛委員提到農業對農民的補助，我覺得部長有一句名言，叫做農民不是補助……我請部長再說一次。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實農業對農民來講，它是一個專業而且要被尊敬的產業，它不是靠補助而過活的一個產業，所以未來農業的部分，我想我們會真正的從整個產業的轉型跟升級來提高農民的所得。"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，這樣就麻煩你們再多注意一下，尤其是儘量不要再有什麼班班吃石斑的那種日子再現啦！因為不能把小朋友或軍人拿來當作消耗這些農產品的這些人嘛！這樣子是不太對的。我為什麼問這個問題？因為這個小組的官網，它最新版的資料還是在113年4月30號下午4點30分由鄭副院長所主持的會議，所以這個部分我在想是不是都沒有在運作，可能麻煩你們再稍微注意一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：也要注意一下通膨的問題啦！","請部長先回座。接下來麻煩請交通部長及國防部長。"],["主席：麻煩交通部、國防部長兩位部長備詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：接下來我想請教一下一個問題，大概就是這幾天比較熱門的一個小問題，也不是小問題，大問題啦！有一位中國籍的阮姓男子，他駕船跑到淡水河口，待了51分鐘都沒有被發現，我覺得這個跟民進黨的主軸「抗中保臺」其實有一點點衝突耶！因為你既然要抗中保臺，那你就要強化我們的防守能力啊！若你在有強化防守能力的情況下，怎麼會讓一艘船跑到淡水河口51分鐘卻沒有被發現？因為這個是電影裡面才會出現的情節，雖然有懲處，請問一下有沒有什麼新的措施？將來要怎麼預防這種事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們原來已經啟動了司法的行政調查，海委會也全部在啟動，已經做了處置了，至於後面，它可能需要一些人力、裝備上面的更新，這個都持續要做，短期間的部分我請管主委來說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：處置的部分我沒有意見，處置我都尊重行政機關的作法。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，事實上各國的Coast Guard都面對同樣的挑戰，我們當然會要求我們的海巡同仁要零漏接，但是零漏接是非常大的挑戰，以韓國來講，在韓國的泰安港也是有中國的一艘小艇載了6個人，結果在泰安港上岸了以後，第五天才逮捕到第一個人。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，你不能以國外……"],["管主任委員碧玲：當然這次的漏接是人為的疏失，我們真的是完全不容許，但是我跟委員報告……"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦，不要拿國外做不好的來講嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我主要是要跟委員報告，第一個，我們在談這件事情的時候，請委員也共同給我們的海巡一個支持的力量，他們仍然是我們的捍衛英雄。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，主委，不要拿這個來這樣講，我不接受，如果你要講那個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒關係，我要說明的是新的措施。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦，我昨天還在立法院裡面幫警消、海巡在那邊爭取他們的所得替代率，我怎麼會不愛他們？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們很瞭解。"],["吳委員宗憲：對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，因為我很需要說明這一點，請大家放心，因為必須請大家放心，這是一個非常值得信賴的捍衛海疆的部隊。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是安定民心一個非常重要的心理基礎。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝主委，沒關係，主委，這個部分我提一個想法啦，因為這個部分我覺得是不是它有在辨識上面的一些問題，對不對？我想主委一定很熟嘛。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，所以我們很希望在辨識上有新的措施。"],["吳委員宗憲：目前交通部對於這個部分，法規是規定只有20總噸以上的船才需要裝設AIS系統，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，AIS。"],["吳委員宗憲：現在我有幾個想法，我不知道你們將來有沒有這個政策，如果這個狀況發生的話，將來20總噸以下的小漁船，要不要用修法的方式，也要求他們要去裝這個AIS的辨識系統？"],["卓院長榮泰：海委會有提出這樣的想法，就是AIS熱像儀，如果能夠裝置在小的漁船上面的話，這次的事件或許就可以察覺得出來它並非我們自己的船舶，所以針對這一點，海委會已經提出它的檢討說明，現在就是我們後續的預算要怎麼來達到這個目的，但是我承諾海委會，我們儘快來想辦法，讓這個國安事件所牽扯到的因素能夠把它降低下來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。"],["管主任委員碧玲：有關20噸以下的小船要裝攜帶式AIS這一點，即使是在救生、救難來講，譬如我們的海巡弟兄接到報案，說有一艘我們家的波特船失聯了，然後我們要去救的時候不知道它在哪裡，茫茫的大海，我們要救一艘家屬報案失聯的波特船時，我們海巡弟兄都非常的希望，如果我們這些小船出去的時候都能有一個攜帶式的AIS在船上的話，我們很快就可以救到它了。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你們有這個計畫嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：尤其是在這一次之後，我們很高興的是，跨部會的各個部門都認為這是一個必須立刻、急迫性來研究的課題。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以請問一下，你們有這個計畫嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們正在研究這個課題，已經有相當的共識，但是還沒有最後的final。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：請農業部說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，20噸以下的漁船大概有九千多艘，然後還有一些是裝馬達的漁筏，叫CTR的部分，也有九千多艘，農業部之前就已經開始補助這些移動式或是固定式的AIS，現在的裝載率大概是20%，我們也跟海委會做一些通盤的檢討。從國安的角度來講，應該要讓每艘漁船都裝，這樣辨識度會比較高，我們會朝這個目標來努力。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我也是覺得要避免再有這個狀況發生，其實是可以思考這些小船是不是也要強制他們裝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：第二個，我思考到，既然一艘船可以跑進來……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們第一時間就開會討論了這個課題。"],["吳委員宗憲：既然一艘船可以跑進來，那毒品的走私或槍枝的走私，也變得相對簡單，它這艘船要進來不難。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，放心！我們才剛宣布了兩個大案，才今年而已，一個案我們緝獲了982公斤，另外一個案緝獲了八百九十幾公斤，這個詳細的數字我沒有記得很清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，這個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是……"],["吳委員宗憲：這不重要。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我再跟委員報告，就在月底，連國外都會一起來肯定我們的緝毒能力，我們還會有新的成績。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦，主委，我們今天不是談緝毒，我當檢察官時還拿過全國緝毒獎啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不要把這件事……"],["吳委員宗憲：好了啦，緝毒不要在這邊講好不好？主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不要把這件事跳躍成毒品槍枝會查緝不力，不會的。"],["吳委員宗憲：主委，你也當過立委，你就不要再講了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：不會的、不會的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們現在談另外一個問題，既然你們剛剛說AIS系統我們可能要強制小船裝設，那還有另外一個問題是我們要注意的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在研究中。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為最近有一些狀況發生，就是有一些船他們裝的是在大陸那邊生產的AIS系統，結果他們開了以後，MMIS碼就變成是大陸的辨識碼出來，這個有時候會讓海巡去誤判嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個對海巡來講是很重要的一個問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以說這個東西變成要法規去強制……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們希望能夠納管。"],["吳委員宗憲：法規去強制說不可以這樣做。好，這個部分可能再麻煩你們瞭解一下這幾個問題，第一個，小船到底要不要裝；第二個，裝了以後，它是不是能夠辨識為臺灣的船隻，而不是每一次都以為是大陸的船隻靠近，這部分再麻煩你們。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告一件事情，這一次我們在6浬就發現這艘船，這是確實的，所以我們的監控系統是看得到它的，但是海委會認為這是一個人為上的疏失、判定上的疏失，所以我們要跟臺灣國人講的是，以後請海委會如何去斷絕這種人為上的疏失，加緊訓練、加緊他的警覺性。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，問題出來了就麻煩解決，謝謝。","接下來我再請教一個問題，院長，您知不知道2022年漢光38號軍演它的主要目的是哪個部分？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["顧部長立雄：2022年還是2024年？"],["吳委員宗憲：就是漢光38號，沒關係，那我……"],["顧部長立雄：今年是40號，您講的是38號……"],["吳委員宗憲：OK，沒關係，它主要的假設是中國用氣墊艇從淡水河口進入我們國家的政經中樞，因為參酌到這一次發生的事情，我想請問國防部這邊將來會不會有什麼因應的作法？因為如果這些氣墊船全數衝到大稻埕碼頭的話，我們如果從淡水河口來算，大概15分鐘左右就會衝到了。我當然有看到報紙報導說有一個作法，就是把關渡大橋炸掉來讓氣墊船無法進來，這也是其中一項作法，這沒有問題，但是如果將來有類似像這種用小船、快艇進來的時候，也許在防堵上面就會有一些問題。我想請問一下，目前是不是有什麼特殊部隊要進駐？在不違反國防機密的情況下，我想請教你，目前有沒有什麼部隊進駐的計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明，但是有關關鍵機密的還是不宜多講。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然，對，我已經講了，我說這個就不用跟我說。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們要區分出所謂灰色地帶的襲擾跟真正從事軍事侵略行動兩個作為是不一樣的，所以如果你講的是它整個氣墊船從淡水河口進來的話，這已經進入到軍事侵略的一個階段，這樣子相關部署的作為，包括我們的海軍、包括我們相關的這些雷達系統，情監偵都會啟動，在淡水河口相關的布置，都會有適切的兵火力，然後會編組戰略部隊來應處這樣的狀況，但是詳細的部署，我想我不宜在這邊跟……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，我想這一塊我將來再跟您請教，有一些東西也許公開場合也不適合去提，甚至私下也不適合告訴我，這我都可以理解。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：我再請教一下院長，最近大家常常說第五縱隊……主委可以先回去了。第五縱隊這個，甚至有官員也都出來去附和這一句話，我想請問一下，如果照大家所說的，臺灣有10萬個第五縱隊的人數，這個不是一個很荒謬的事嗎？10萬人你運作要多少經費啊！院長，你怎麼會……","底下的官員有的還附和民視和三立的這個報導，然後它內文還寫到說，熟稔兩岸情勢的官員透露出10萬人的這件事情。我覺得這個是不是有一個狀況，要嘛你就叫我們的國安局或誰去把這些人弄出來、抓出來嘛！要嘛你就應該叫NCC去管好這些媒體不要亂報嘛！你之前在當主席的時候，其實你也有提過一個東西，你說如果NCC無法加強管理就要換個人，甚至改變體制。今天發生這個狀況，說我們第五縱隊有10萬人，你底下的官員還去跟人家附和這句話，結果你人也不抓，10萬人你總抓個500人出來嘛！人也不抓，然後NCC也不管，我實在不知道這個跟你當初的想法怎麼會差距那麼遠？我覺得包括像NCC對王義川，他這次提到的手機監控這件事，NCC要做行政調查，說真的我也完全對NCC沒有任何信任度了，也不期待。但是我希望一件事，如果照院長您之前當黨主席時候說的NCC管不好那就換人，甚至改變體制，也請院長能夠支持我們這次對於NCC組織法的修正。","最後請外交部長。"],["主席：請外交部長備詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想請問一下外交部長跟國防部長，兩位當初在國會改革法案的時候，是不是也有提過爭取聽證權、調查權，跟罰鍰還有刑則的設計？回答是或不是就可以。"],["主席：時間打岔……"],["顧部長立雄：我想內容是不一樣的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是有，只是你認為不一樣！"],["顧部長立雄：不一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，因為條文我大概都是跟各位的差不多，好，謝謝各位。"],["主席：吳宗憲委員，因為外交部部長請假，現在是田次長。好，如果您有什麼書面資料的話……","謝謝吳宗憲委員質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。非常謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長及各部會首長列席答詢。6月18日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行施政方針報告之質詢，現在休息。","休息（17時36分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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這個事情當中好我想說新的涉宅的政策內政部也有一些新的構想我們會逐步的把它跟社會來說明也希望委員能夠多多指教下一次執行前能給我們一個比較明確的"},{"start":704.878,"end":725.567,"text":"的作法,這樣我們才會依循嘛,就知道接下來要怎麼做。好,那另外呢,我想請教一下就是有關房價之外,其實大家更思考的就是物價的問題。因為CPI它是最近的漲幅是很高嘛。那我們去看齁,主計處它2月下旬,它本來是預計是上漲1.85。"},{"start":727.988,"end":744.414,"text":"結果呢後來因為那個電價調漲的發案一出爐他後來就是預測是到2.03結果呢到5月的時候就是今年6月6號他發布5月的物價調查發現竟然高達2.24那其實這個已經突破那個2%的這個通膨警戒線"},{"start":750.933,"end":776.455,"text":"那我想我覺得這個通膨不管在全世界其實都是大家害怕的一個怪獸啊我們的薪資沒有漲的情況下其實通膨一直漲等於是他實質購買力都下降所以他實質所得也是下降的那這樣對國人其實傷害是不小啦那我之前在就是本期之前在那個國是論壇的時候其實有提到因為當時在講電價到底要不要漲"},{"start":777.176,"end":777.196,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":796.721,"end":824.147,"text":"而前面的政府對外面說影響不大那個電費調漲也不大對你們都不會影響這個也是騙人的嘛因為我家的家用電沒有調漲問題是我買的每一個產品他的整個供應鏈的電費都調漲了我家沒有漲物價還是會漲啊所以這樣子跟人民說沒有影響我覺得這個講這句話有點不負責任那當然跟院長您無關"},{"start":825.749,"end":853.69,"text":"我一直不認為說這個是應該這麼對外說一個負責任的政府應該是一個誠信的政府做對做錯都要承認那我自己對我個人的要求是我做錯事我就認錯我會很快跟人家道歉那我也希望說將來我面對的一個政府是這樣子好那那個我再請教院長我們提到物價飆漲這個部分院長你知不知道現在一顆蛋在外面售價多少錢就是在小吃店"},{"start":854.778,"end":879.122,"text":"是我家人知道多少錢嗎?我講10塊到15塊吧。對,現在其實差不多15塊,院長你真是蠻了解的。但是呢,產地價生雞蛋的產地價其實一斤跌到20幾塊。所以這個發生了一個問題就是,我在小吃店買一顆蛋,它的價格等於是生產地的幾乎是半斤的價格了。"},{"start":880.612,"end":895.488,"text":"那其實呢我自己觀察啦我自己覺得這個可能這個是跟院長您無關啦我是個人我自己研究我是覺得是跟前任的那個農業部陳吉仲部長比較有關聯性因為他的農業政策是"},{"start":896.529,"end":921.917,"text":"吳宗憲的農業政策不是做產銷的調控。反正他什麼出什麼事,院長沒關係,這不是你的論點,這是我的論點。我認為說我每次看到他就是補貼補貼補貼,哪裡出包就哪裡補貼。他從來不是做產銷的調控,那他也不是做那種長期的農糧政策的規劃。所以搞到現在反正出了事情就撒錢就好了。那他沒有想到很多東西起來之後物價是回不去的。"},{"start":922.637,"end":922.777,"text":"吳宗英"},{"start":935.936,"end":959.259,"text":"那個銷售到小吃店那加上成本什麼其實我覺得應該不是這麼高更何況現在雞蛋價已經跌到成本價以下所以很多人寧願把雞蛋拿去餵豬拿去丟掉他也不願意拿出來賣所以這是一個問題那請問一下你們現在對於這個那個這些通膨啊這些物價穩定物價小組到底還有沒有實際在運作"},{"start":961.401,"end":982.597,"text":"當然有,這是很重要的一環。我們看看CPI雖然到2.43左右,超過了大家心裡比較安心的2,這個數字已經超越,但是我們是在嚴密的監控當中,這可能也有季節性的。那至於說剛剛委員提到農業對農民的補助,我覺得部長有一句名言,農民不是補助。"},{"start":984.859,"end":1004.09,"text":"我跟委員報告,其實農業是對農民來講他是一個專業而且是要被尊敬的一個產業他不是靠補助而過活的一個產業所以未來農業的部分我想我們會真正的從整個產業的一個轉型跟升級來提高農民所得"},{"start":1006.514,"end":1031.51,"text":"OK那這樣就麻煩你們再多注意一下尤其是盡量不要再有什麼斑斑吃食斑那種日子再現因為不能把小朋友或軍人拿來當作去消耗這些農產品的這些人這樣子是不太對的那其實因為我為什麼要問這個問題因為我們這個小組的官網他最新版的資料還是113年4月30號下午4點30分由那個"},{"start":1037.669,"end":1063.566,"text":"鄭副院長他主持的會議所以這個部分我在想說是不是怎麼都沒有在運作那可能再麻煩你們再稍微注意一下那也要注意一下這個通膨的一個問題我們請部長先回去交通部長跟國防部長麻煩交通部長跟國防部長麻煩交通部、國防部兩位部長備選"},{"start":1065.194,"end":1083.951,"text":"接下來我想請教一下一個問題,大概就是這幾天比較熱門的一個小問題,也不是小問題,大問題。就是這個軟性男子,中國籍的軟性男子,他駕船跑到淡水河口待了51分鐘都沒有被發現。"},{"start":1087.837,"end":1097.616,"text":"這個跟民進黨的主軸抗中保台其實有一點點衝突耶因為你既然要抗中保台那你就要強化我們的防守能力啊"},{"start":1098.905,"end":1124.834,"text":"沒有那你強化防守能力的情況下怎麼會讓一艘船跑到淡水河口51分鐘卻沒有被發現因為這個是電影裡面才會出現的情節吼那雖然有懲處那請問一下那有沒有新的什麼措施啊有沒有新將來要怎麼預防這種事情報告委員我們已經啟動了原來已經啟動了司法的調查行政調查海委會也全部在啟動他已經做了處置了"},{"start":1125.094,"end":1125.214,"text":"根委員報告"},{"start":1141.392,"end":1162.807,"text":"事實上各國的coast guard都面對同樣的挑戰那我們當然會要求我們的海巡的同仁要零漏接但是零漏接是非常大的挑戰以韓國來講在韓國的泰安港也是中國的一艘小艇載了6個人結果在泰安港上岸了以後第5天才逮捕到第1個人"},{"start":1163.888,"end":1185.754,"text":"那當然這一次的漏接是人為的疏失,我們真的是完全不容許。但是我跟委員報告...我主要是要跟委員報告說第一個我們在談這件事情的時候請委員也共同給我們的海巡一個支持的力量。他仍然是我們的捍衛人手。沒關係,那我要說你們是新的措施。"},{"start":1191.136,"end":1215.324,"text":"我昨天還在立法院裡面幫錦霄海巡在那邊爭取他的所得替代率我怎麼會不愛他們請委員因為我很需要說明這一點之後那請大家放心因為必須請大家放心說這是一個非常值得信賴的捍衛海疆的部隊這是安平民心的一個非常重要的心理基礎"},{"start":1216.465,"end":1240.227,"text":"主委,那這個部分我是提一個想法啦,就是說,因為我大概這個部分我覺得是不是說他這個在辨識上面的一些問題,對不對?所以我們很希望,我們很希望在辨識上有新的措施。目前交通部這邊對於這個法規是只有20種頓以上的,只有20種頓以上才需要去設那個AIS系統,對不對?"},{"start":1241.628,"end":1260.713,"text":"那現在我有幾個想法,我不知道你們將來有沒有這個政策,就是如果這個狀況會發生的話,那是不是將來20總噸以下的小漁船,要不要用修法的方式也要求他們要去裝這個AIS的辨識系統?"},{"start":1262.791,"end":1279.446,"text":"還會不會有提出這樣的想法就AIS熱像儀如果能夠裝置在29小的漁船上面的話那這次的事件或許他就可以察覺出來他並非我們自己的船貨所以真的這一點還有已經提出他的檢討的說明但是現在就是我們要後續"},{"start":1280.219,"end":1280.799,"text":"有關20噸以下的小船要來裝攜帶式的AIS這一點"},{"start":1296.005,"end":1296.025,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1321.411,"end":1321.871,"text":"委員長 農業部說明"},{"start":1347.944,"end":1347.964,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1366.448,"end":1367.169,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":1395.686,"end":1400.11,"text":"委員放心,我們才剛剛宣布了兩個大案,才今年而已。我們一個案,一個案我們棄貨了982公斤,那另外一個案棄貨了八百九十幾公斤,這個詳細的數字我沒有記得很清楚,但是"},{"start":1420.427,"end":1436.12,"text":"我再跟委員報告齁就在月底齁連國外都會一起來肯定我們的企讀能力我們還會有新的我們還會有新的成績所以不要把這件事不要把這件事跳躍成對不要把這件事跳躍成說獨品槍枝獨品槍枝會長期不入不會的那我們現在談另外一個問題既然我們你們剛剛說那AIS系統我們可能要往小船上面去"},{"start":1448.911,"end":1451.112,"text":"對海巡來講是很重要的一個問題。"},{"start":1477.988,"end":1504.077,"text":"法規來去強制說不可以這樣做好那這個部分呢可能再麻煩你們瞭解一下這幾個問題第一個就是小船到底要不要裝第二個就是裝了以後他是不是裝能夠辨識為臺灣的船隻而不是每一次都以為是大陸的船隻靠近這部分再麻煩你們跟委員報告一件事情這個這一次我們在六海裡就發現這艘船這是確實的所以我們的監控系統是看得到他的"},{"start":1504.597,"end":1524.436,"text":"但是海委會認為這是一個人為上的疏失判定上的疏失所以我們要跟台灣國人講的是這個人為上的疏失以後請海委會如何去斷絕這種人為上的疏失加緊訓練加緊他的警覺性問題出來了就麻煩解決接下來我們請國防沒關係我再請教一個問題"},{"start":1527.694,"end":1541.358,"text":"部長,院長您知不知道那個2022年那個漢光38號軍演,它的主要目的是哪個部分?2022年還是2024年?就是漢光38號?今年是40號,你講的是38號。他主要的那個的假設是中國他用那個氣墊艇"},{"start":1556.003,"end":1570.294,"text":"從淡水河口進入我們國家的政軍中樞我想請教一下因為參酌到這一次發生的事情我想請問就是國防部這邊將來會不會有什麼因應的做法"},{"start":1571.115,"end":1598.874,"text":"因為啊這些如果氣墊船他全速衝到那個大稻埕碼頭的話我們如果從淡水河口來算大概15分鐘左右就會衝到了嘛那我當然有看到就是報紙有報導說那有一個做法就是把那個關路大橋炸掉來讓這個氣墊船無法進來這也是其中一項做法這沒有問題但是如果將來有類似像這種用小船快艇進來的時候也許這個"},{"start":1599.735,"end":1599.855,"text":"跟委員報告齁就是說"},{"start":1624.073,"end":1643.096,"text":"我們要區分出所謂灰色地帶的洗澡跟真正的從事這個軍事侵略這個行動兩個作為是不一樣的所以整個如果你想的是他整個氣墊船從淡水河口進來的話這是已經進入到軍事"},{"start":1644.155,"end":1644.175,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":1658.168,"end":1684.334,"text":"那在淡水的河口相關的佈置都會有適切的冰火力,然後會編組戰略部隊來應處這樣的一個狀況。但是詳細的部署,我想我不宜在這邊。那我想這一塊我在將來我再跟您請教,我想有一些東西也許公開場合也不適合去提,甚至私下也不適合告訴我,這我都可以理解。那我再請教一下就是這個院長,"},{"start":1685.563,"end":1709.459,"text":"最近常常大家講說第五縱隊,主委可以先回去了,第五縱隊這個啊,甚至到有官員也都出來去附和這句話。那我想請問一下,如果照大家所說的,台灣有10萬個第五縱隊的人數,那這個不是一個很荒謬的事嗎?10萬人你運作要多少經費啊?那部長你、院長你怎麼會?"},{"start":1711.055,"end":1737.676,"text":"就是底下的官員有的還附和這個民事和三立的這個報導然後他內文還寫到說所有兩岸情勢的官員透露出這個這個10萬人的這件事情那我覺得這個是不是有一個狀況就是要嘛你就叫我們的我們的國安局或誰去把這些人弄出來抓出來嘛要嘛你就應該叫NCC去管好這些媒體不要亂報嘛所以"},{"start":1739.997,"end":1754.999,"text":"你之前在當主席的時候其實你也有提過一個東西你就說如果這個NCC無法加強管理就要換個人甚至改變體制那今天發生這個狀況你說我們第五縱隊有什麼"},{"start":1755.8,"end":1770.827,"text":"十萬人,結果你底下的官員還去跟人家附和這一句話,結果你人也不抓,十萬人你總抓個五百人出來嘛,人也不抓,然後NCC也不管,那我實在不知道這個跟你當初的想法怎麼會差距那麼遠,我覺得啦齁"},{"start":1771.787,"end":1800.455,"text":"包括像NCC對那個王逸川他這次提到的這個手機監控這個齁NCC要做行政調查說這個我也完全對NCC沒有任何信任度了也不期待啦齁但是我是希望一件事如果照院長您之前當黨主席時候的說NCC管不好那就換人甚至改變體制那也請院長齁能夠支持我們這次對於NCC組織法的的修正好啦那最後齁那個"},{"start":1802.027,"end":1825.454,"text":"請那個外交部長我想請問一下那個外交部長跟國防部長兩位當初在國會改革法案的時候是不是也有提過爭取聽證權、調查權跟這個罰環還有刑責的設計是或不是就可以時間打差我想內容是不一樣的"},{"start":1827.138,"end":1837.283,"text":"吳宗憲委員,因為是外交部田次長,部長請假,現在是次長。好的,好的,您要什麼書面資料的話,好。謝謝吳宗憲委員執行,謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會本日排定的質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。"}]}},{"id":"154049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c0185039242207f153aa95b353bd3059915546a63521c4604b1fc86e46e02d761d5dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"16:35:11 - 17:05:27","影片長度":"00:30:16","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T16:35:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T17:05:27+08:00","duration":1816,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":486,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（16時34分）謝謝主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：院長好。院長，我想請教一下，因為我們的財劃法已經25年都沒有修正了，其實地方首長大家都叫苦連天，尤其是現在中央跟地方的權限也有很大的改變，以前在精省前，中央跟地方的財政比例大概是6比4，現在大概是7.5比2.5，所以為了因應中央跟地方功能的改變，其實應該同步調整中央跟地方的財政分配，才能達到財政公平，而且能夠真正實施地方自治的理想。我想請問一下院長，您認為財劃法修正是財政問題，還是政治問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：它一直是一個財政的問題，但是它牽扯到政治很多的角力，所以我常常說，垂直分配與水平分配這確實是一個難題，否則不可能推動好幾次到最後都停下來，就是因為在分配上，大家對於自己應該得到的這些財政資助，每個縣市計算的方式是不同的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以院長認為，既是財政問題，也是政治問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是財政問題，它背後有政治的因素。"],["許委員宇甄：到底是財政問題還是政治問題，等等給你答案。在2012年的時候，當時的賴清德市長，他曾經講過升格五都之後，其實很多人口都往中北部去發展，升格之後，很多的問題是升格只做一半，而且相關的配套法案，包括財政收支劃分法跟公債法並沒有隨同通過。當時賴清德市長，也就是我們現在的賴總統，就跟當時的行政院長陳冲說，一定要拿出非過不可的決心。還有包括在2012年，當時民進黨主席蘇貞昌也說，縣市長在編列預算的時候，事實上就很像是看著嗷嗷待哺的孩子，可是米缸卻是空的，甚至他說他在編預算的時候，常常半夜都睡不著覺，醒來是冒冷汗，我相信這也是現在很多縣市長的心聲。在2017年12月的時候，當時的行政院長，也就是我們現在的賴總統，他開記者會說，他會在2018年提出財政收支劃分法的修正草案，但是6年過去了，到目前都還沒有處理。由剛剛我講的這些來看的話，其實財劃法修訂就是一個政治問題。請問院長，現在賴清德總統已經當選了，他過去主張修訂財劃法，請問賴清德總統主張的是芭樂票還是竹竿票？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員說明，過去歷史上這麼多次努力的痕跡，我們都記得，但是為什麼沒有辦法落實下去？無論執政黨是哪一黨都沒有辦法落實下去，就是因為剛剛說的，在分配上，每個縣市都有各自不同的盤算，所以造成到最後都是停下來，歷次都是這個樣子，所以我們今天要回頭看的是，為什麼會產生這樣的困難及各縣市的不同，但是中央政府是用一般的補助款跟統籌分配稅款來幫助地方，達到衡平地方初步的目的。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，你剛剛有提到垂直分配跟水平分配的關係，所以沒有辦法一直達到財劃法修正的目標，我跟您講一下，目前我們國民黨團有提出一個版本，這是國民黨邀請16個縣市所制定出來的財劃法修正草案，您可以看一下我們這個財劃法的修正版本沒有藍綠之分，就增加的比例來說，縣市增最多的有宜蘭縣、新竹縣、基隆市、彰化縣、金馬、嘉義縣市，還有屏東縣都是增加三倍以上，而苗栗縣、澎湖縣跟南投縣增加2.5倍以上，雲林縣、花東增加兩倍以上，新竹市也有1.5倍，六都中新北增加1.3倍，臺北增加0.6倍，臺南跟高雄在六都中的增幅是居於中間，並沒有獨厚國民黨執政縣市的差距，六都的比例也從61.76%降到49%，可以說是最能平衡城鄉差距，也解決了您剛剛所提到的有關垂直分配跟水平分配的問題，所以我想請教一下院長，我們可以看到國民黨版的財劃法修正有三大重點，第一個是公平，讓各縣市政府都能夠獲得最妥善的預算。第二個是直接有效，可以照顧全國2,350萬人民。第三個可以讓整體施政和國家發展都能夠逐步向前，國民黨的版本我們看到的只有地方之福，請問行政院如果沒有辦法提出院版的話，是不是可以共同支持國民黨的版本，讓我們一起來幫賴總統實現他當院長時的支票，與達成民進黨擔任在野黨時的理想，院長，您覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，委員，現在的財劃法精神就是朝向公平、有效和促進地方發展的原則去做，已經相當多年了，但是貴黨所提出的這個版本，我看起來是本來已經多的還會更多，本來已經少的也不見得再多，臺北、新北就是很多。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有喔！我剛剛已經講了……"],["卓院長榮泰：除了比例之外，它的數目、金額是很大的……"],["許委員宇甄：六都本來是61.76%，現在降到49%，也就是六都其實很願意讓利給其他缺乏財政的縣市，所以目前國民黨版的版本大概是這樣。如果院長對修訂後的分配數有疑義的話，請問行政院什麼時候可以提出對案的版本進行討論？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛跟委員報告過，現在的現行版本、規定、辦法就是朝向您現在說的更公平、更有效而且促進地方發展，我們是用一般補助款、統籌分配稅款和計劃型補助來衡平地方發展，這已經行之多年。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，如果現在75%在中央是你覺得最好的方法，這樣的話，各縣市原則上不會提出這些問題，所以院長，我覺得我們其實要面對、正視。"],["卓院長榮泰：也不能否認前瞻基礎建設、長照、公建及很多社會福利，中央其實補助地方非常非常多。"],["許委員宇甄：但是很多都是中央開支票、地方買單的也很多。"],["卓院長榮泰：受惠的是人民。"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個部分我覺得可能影響到我們還要看看現在院長是誰，要受到院長關愛的眼神才有可能得到更多的補助，有的地方可能就是嗷嗷待哺，真的是米缸空了，卻沒有辦法得到相對的補助。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們相信臺灣是一個法制國家，我們希望大家都能夠看到這一點。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我覺得有一定的公式和標準的話，應該比較能夠有公平、有效的財富分配方式，當然，如果行政院沒有辦法提出院版的話，國民黨黨團的版本通過之後，請問行政院會不會提覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是假設性的問題，我們現在認為現行的版本是能夠照顧到地方、照顧到人民，中央不會站在中央為利益的考量上作為任何的出發點，這一點我們希望能夠再經過合理的對話。"],["許委員宇甄：其實已經溝通那麼多年，大部分的縣市都覺得地方財源是不夠的，這表示財劃法的修正回到精省前的六比四是有非常大的空間，請院長要好好的跟財政部協調出一套最好的方式。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下目前的情況。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在不用部長說明，謝謝，因為剛剛院長已經大概有說明了。我再請院長看一下，現在有幾個傳統的農業縣人口流失非常嚴重，包括苗栗、彰化、南投、雲林、嘉義、屏東，請教院長，你知道農業縣的人口流失嚴重主要是因為什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：關於農業縣人口的流失，經濟的多面向發展，還有人口老化問題都是一個原因、因素。"],["許委員宇甄：其實農業縣會有這樣的問題，主要是因為它的財政收入不足，很多青壯人口在地方上沒有得到更好的發展和工作機會，所以他當然會想要到外縣市，甚至到六都去，如果要改善農業縣人口外移的情況，其實我覺得修正財政收支劃分法才是最重要的。","另外，我再請教一下院長，要就教幾個國土計畫法上路之後所衍生的問題，在104年12月國土計畫法立法通過之後，為了確保國人的糧食安全，政府也規劃全國宜維護農地的面積大概是81萬公頃，這些土地不僅是生產糧食的基礎，更是維護國人食物安全的重要保障，這些農地因為不能夠隨意變更，所以影響農民的權益也甚鉅，加上受規範的縣市也沒有獲得合理補償，連帶影響農業縣市未來的發展，恐怕也會造成農業縣市人口加速外流，剛剛提到已經外流非常嚴重、外漂非常嚴重。因為國土計畫法對農業的衝擊很大，現在有一些縣市也針對這個部分提出很多現在的問題，希望能夠來改善，為了讓農業縣市有更長的時間準備，也讓這些縣市可以有充分跟農民溝通的機會。請問一下院長，我們的國土計畫法是不是能夠展延兩年，讓這個計畫能夠推動地更為順利，不會引起民怨？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在正在國土計畫法的程序當中，預計明年要上路，在今年6月底希望各縣市能夠報上來各縣市的計畫，以目前來看，只有三個縣市。"],["許委員宇甄：三個，對。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們經過跟各縣市一一地詢問之後，剛剛內政部劉部長已經說過了，她所掌握的……"],["許委員宇甄：有四個縣市，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：可能會有四個縣市沒有辦法報上來。"],["許委員宇甄：那是不是可以請問一下劉部長，是哪……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果到那個時候，我們再來做考量，怎麼樣讓大家齊步地向前走。"],["許委員宇甄：所以表示院長覺得展延是有空間的，因為還要聽聽各縣市的意見嘛！請問一下部長，有哪四個縣市現在是會有問題，其他的都沒有問題嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：包括您所關心的雲林縣是有困擾的，但是我也要跟委員報告，我們到目前為止，辦了44場說明會，雲林縣政府裡面的相關單位都非常清楚這個狀況，我們也願意協助它，希望也是在6月底之前，可以把國土功能分區計畫表送到內政部做審查。"],["許委員宇甄：我想雲林縣政府，誠如您剛剛講的，就是有很多窒礙難行的問題沒有辦法解決，也沒有辦法讓農民理解國土計畫法對他們造成的損失，跟未來是不是能對他們有所補償，所以一直沒有辦法做有效溝通。您可以看一下，現在這個國土計畫法的……"],["劉部長世芳：就我知道的，農民的權益並沒有改變。"],["許委員宇甄：您可以看一下，現在雲林縣在之前提報的農一大概是6萬839公頃，占全國比例最高；農一加農二是8萬7,480公頃，加起來也是全國最高。但是您可以看到雲林縣並不是農地面積最高的縣市，最高的應該是屏東縣，第二高的是臺南市，為什麼大部分的縣市為了發展地方，會儘量保留自己的彈性，而目前申報最多的是雲林縣，當然這八萬多公頃，將來土地只能從事農業工作，可能會影響雲林縣未來的發展。所以院長，在這一次我們看到農一、農二的劃設標準並不一致，現在雲林縣打算參考屏東縣的版本，把台糖地跟公有地劃為農一，私有地劃為農二，這樣雲林縣的農業面積就可以從6萬0,839公頃減為5,836公頃，這樣跟屏東縣的劃設標準一致，請問院長跟部長支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我今天答復很多委員的垂詢，這種劃分的標準是全國各縣市一致的，不會獨厚哪一個縣市，但執行劃分細部的部分，請部長來說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員報告，我們在農一到農五本身劃設的原則是全國一致性的，但是同樣的，縣市政府也會根據當地發展跟規劃做一些調整，在每一次縣市國土審議委員會，農業部都會派員去表達我們的專業意見跟提醒。以目前來講，所有的國土規劃都是原來的法定農地，已經劃為農一、農二的部分，對農民而言，只要你從事農業是完全沒有影響，而且會有更多後續的農業資源投入。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，剛剛我請教的是，既然全國的標準應該是一致的，所以雲林縣是不是可以比照屏東縣的方式，重新調整農一、農二？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說過了，有全國一致性的標準，但是各縣市政府會參照他們相關的產業需求，我們也會提供專業意見……"],["許委員宇甄：我們雲林縣原則上就是可以來做一些調整，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會提供專業意見，如果它劃設的比例，我舉個例子，像雲林縣也有一些劃為國保的部分，我們會……"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分是不是事後請部長可以把相關的資料給我，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會來協助。"],["許委員宇甄：我另外再請教一下院長，在2017年屏東縣長潘孟安表示，四十多年前的區域計畫法實施的時候，屏東被劃定為農業區，從此判了屏東死刑，這對屏東來說很不公平，潘孟安也不滿地說新北市的農地只有6,000公頃，屏東卻超過8萬公頃，憑什麼屏東只能作為糧倉，新北市的土地就能被充分利用，完全不公平！我想以這個邏輯來說，對雲林縣來說，可能更為不公平，所以在國土計畫法實施之後，農民農地農用算不算是特別犧牲？這樣會不會導致農民的權益受損，影響農業縣市的發展？所以從明年開始，是不是可以把農林漁牧產值納入縣市補助經費的分配標準，並制定補償農業縣市的方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，各縣市尤其是農業用地，雖然有各個縣市不同的特色或區域性的條件，但是我是認為，地方首長如果用心就能夠把地方帶到農業再生、地方創新的這個程度裡面來，我覺得潘縣長在這裡也許是成為一個模範，他自己努力的成果，值得大家來學習。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，我給您看幾個數據，您就可以知道為什麼沒辦法說因為縣市長用不用心，您可以看一下從業人口，我們可以看到，以農業縣跟工商業的都市人民的可支配所得的差異，臺灣的平均是一年94萬，雲林縣只有67萬，低於平均的27萬，跟臺北市的落差更高達58.3萬，所以這個部分的話，我們就看到農業縣的收入偏低，所以對於農民而言，很多都會想說我在地方上討不到生活、沒有工作機會，我會移到六都，所以國土計畫法實施之後，對於農民來說事實上更加不公平。另外院長，我再給您看另外一個數據，您剛剛有提到的，不管是做什麼農業發展等等的，您可以看一下，竹科只有1,375公頃，就創造了1兆4,000億的產值，而雲林縣的8萬8,000公頃只能創造850億元的產值，由這個數字就可以看到區域發展的失衡跟落差。所以院長，農業部也有說會優先投入農政資源於農一優良農地，但投入什麼資源、金額跟方式都沒有說清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，未來針對農一、農二及農業的資源，第一個就是我們會以彰顯農民保護農地，確保我們糧食安全的角度，所以我們會對於環境的對地綠色給付的部分，然後用堆疊制的方式，包括生態給付，包括種植的時候對環境友善的部分也會提高……"],["許委員宇甄：這些我想都要充分地讓農民瞭解，他們才能夠針對國土計畫法實施之後，能夠給予更多的協助……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會加強宣導。"],["許委員宇甄：讓他們更加瞭解。當然我想您可以再看一下，請問院長知不知道我們現在的農地一公頃大概多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：農地？"],["許委員宇甄：對，一公頃大概多少錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：各個地方應該不一樣吧？"],["許委員宇甄：對，但平均來說。"],["卓院長榮泰：平均來講……"],["許委員宇甄：我告訴院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：3到50萬應該有吧？"],["許委員宇甄：平均一公頃的農地大概是1,500萬，但是事實上很多就像你剛剛講的，越北部的農地面積可能就更高，我有做了一個試算，現在我們看到的是農地每公頃的收入大概是12萬5,936元，這是農地，如果你種稻的話。但你們看一下下一張，如果您是把原來的農地賣掉，因為地方的不同，如果是一公頃1,500萬的話，你把它拿去買臺灣10年的公債跟美國10年的公債，大概可以是24萬到66萬，當然如果你的農地是8,000萬的話，那就是更多。所以你就可以看到以這個數據來說，如果你是農民的話，你會選擇要種水稻，還是乾脆賣地買公債呢？針對這個部分，為了照顧因政策受損的農民，行政院能否針對受限制且有實際耕作的農地給予對地補償？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經在做了……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在在做的就是對地給付的部分……"],["許委員宇甄：OK，那是不是可以再把相關的資料給本席？"],["陳部長駿季：對地給付的部分，在從事農業的部分，我們會有個堆疊式的……"],["許委員宇甄：好，如果已經在做的話，我想是金額的問題，因為現在的對地補償我聽好像只有1萬，相對地很低。"],["陳部長駿季：一年1萬，對。"],["許委員宇甄：相對地很低，希望能夠提高對地補償。另外再請教一下院長，我們現在可以看到，全臺灣有6個縣市的老年人口占比超過20%，依序是嘉義、臺北、南投、雲林、基隆、屏東，我們可以看到現在這些縣市因為財政狀況的不同，所以對老人福利也有很多不一樣的照顧，目前有65歲以上老人健保補助的，大概除了六都之外，只有幾個財政比較好的縣市，還有12個縣市沒有補助，因為現在的財劃法還沒修訂，所以農業縣的自主財源不足，請問院長，我們是不是能由中央統一辦理老人健保的補助？請問院長是否同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們現在對中低收入、70歲以上以及65歲以上的老人家都有一些補助，但是如果全面用這樣的標準來看，則必須考慮到政府的財政負擔。"],["許委員宇甄：這幾年其實政府都超徵幾千億，老人健保的部分大概幾百億，我覺得對於老人的照顧真的非常重要，希望不要同樣生活在臺灣卻同卡不同命。","另外，再請教院長有關電力的問題，我們現在的核電，今年7月核三的1號機就要停止運轉了，明年5月核三的2號機也會停轉，大家很擔心缺失的6到7%電力到底要用什麼電力來補足，之前部長本來有提過核能也是一個選項，但現在因為時空背景不同，所以又改變了，雖然只有短短的一個禮拜，但時空背景就相對不同了，現在大家都很疑慮，到底要用什麼電力來補足？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，在時空背景下，但是我沒有改變，可能是我之前的報告不夠精準，不過我跟委員在這裡再報告一次，我們的電是夠的。"],["許委員宇甄：怎麼夠？您的配比、總電量跟能源配比，目前的狀況如何？"],["郭部長智輝：我們從2023年到2030年為止，大概會下來700萬千瓦，但是我們會上來910萬千瓦的電，所以這些基載的電是夠的，我們大概餘額210萬千瓦，如果我們做一些比較寬裕的假設，同時有三個機組降下來的話……"],["許委員宇甄：因為我們現在很多能源燃料99%都是靠進口，如果我們從海上進口，因為天候的關係，又可能像之前大陸軍演的關係，也沒辦法進到國內來，這樣就可能造成缺電的問題，所以這部分的能源配比是不是應該更多元化，也可以設法減少對進口的依賴？院長是不是同意？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們現在這部分有綠電，我們用風電跟光電以及儲電來彌補，另外一方面，我們也要從現在開始大力推廣節能減碳的ESCO方法。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，今年的電力夠用嗎？因為我知道你們風電跟光電的發電量好像都沒有達到目前的目標。"],["郭部長智輝：所以那只是一個備載的部分，我們基載的部分還是一樣，我剛才跟您報告過了，我們大概這四年會上來910萬千瓦的電，它是夠的，我們也根據市場上的調查，包括現在AI可能會使用的……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛講到AI，因為現在各縣市都在爭取AI產業到臺灣來投資，可是如果以現在這樣來看的話，核能除役之後，對於爭取AI產業到臺灣，你們有信心臺灣不會缺電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的估計是這樣，過去我們大概用成長1.8%計算，我們因為AI而把它調到大概2.92%的成長方式，所以我們的估計應該是精準的。"],["許委員宇甄：這部分我知道部長很有信心，但是外界不管是國外、國內，甚至是黃仁勳執行長其實都有這樣的疑慮，所以希望政府要拿出方法，讓我們看到臺灣是不缺電的、我們真正能夠發展AI產業，否則的話，錯誤的能源政策沒辦法帶領臺灣在AI產業上走得更穩。接下來我要請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，沒有錯誤的能源政策，我們是多元的能源政策，而且我們現在啟動第二次的能源轉型。"],["許委員宇甄：如果是多元的能源政策，是不是也可以把非核家園這個限制臺灣能源多元性的鐵籠拔除？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在就是發展多元的綠能，而且讓所有新的機組能夠上來發電。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝部長。接下來我要請教院長的是社會住宅的問題，我們可以看到賴清德總統他在競選的時候，有高喊要興建社宅百萬戶，但是我們現在看到的好像是變成百萬租屋的家戶政策，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，您看一下，現在賴總統的社會住宅25萬戶，包租代管25萬戶及租金補貼50萬戶，這樣子的戶數是對的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們努力的目標。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那您可以看得到租金補貼的部分，其實內政部到113年5月15號止就已經核定了52萬2,660戶了，也就是說其實在你們賴總統就職前就已經有超過50萬戶的租金補貼了，那是不是代表租金補貼的50萬戶，其實你們還沒上任就已經KPI達標了，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有討論過，請部長來說明。"],["劉部長世芳：我想委員講的沒有錯，因為租金補貼是比較快速，跟所謂直接興建的社會住宅比較不一樣，所以確實是達到52萬戶以上。"],["許委員宇甄：那就是說其實這個政策訂定等於是前任就完成了，並不是現在才完成嘛！也不是你們努力的目標嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：因為全部社宅及租屋政策是一個package。"],["許委員宇甄：再看一下您剛剛的社宅部分，您可以看到這個統計表，我們現在看到的這是蔡政府時代的，您剛剛的25萬社宅，12萬戶是蔡政府的，13萬戶是接下來賴政府你們要達成，對不對？可是事實上到現在，蔡政府任內還有2萬4,509戶是在規劃中的，部長，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我不曉得你講的是哪個item，但是……"],["許委員宇甄：就是在規劃中的有2萬4,509戶。"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們的估計是到年底之前，儘量可以達到10萬戶到12萬戶。"],["許委員宇甄：那就是原來的這12萬戶……"],["劉部長世芳：因為我想……"],["許委員宇甄：以25萬戶來講，另外還有13萬戶的話，你們要在7年內要達到，這樣有辦法做到嗎？因為過去的8年其實也只完成大概不到10萬戶嘛！未來有可能再完成這麼多戶數嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝許委員的關心，我們未來會改採取多元的取得土地，尤其是國、公有土地，然後我們也會跟民間企業一起來合作，看它是不是也願意投入興建，用這樣多元方向的話，在短時間內，也不是短時間，7年之內完成連同蔡政府總統期間在內的話，大概總共25萬戶還是我們的目標。"],["許委員宇甄：以目前看來的話，要達到這樣的目標，其實相當的不容易。所以是不是……"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在的目標就是希望直轄市、縣市政府跟中央是一半、一半……"],["許委員宇甄：因為可能現在也都是把前任的計算基礎納進來，真正是不是能夠達到，而且現在訂定的目標看起來是蠻高的，這個部分真的要請部長要好好的用心……"],["劉部長世芳：我們會努力，謝謝你！"],["許委員宇甄：不要讓社宅跳票。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們很珍惜過去8年所累積的經驗，會讓我們在這個基礎上知道該往哪個方向去走，剛剛部長所說，用更多元的資金的尋求，公部門、私部門，以及盤點整個……"],["許委員宇甄：因為我們是不希望說講得很響亮啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會朝向這個目標……"],["許委員宇甄：就是百萬的租屋，結果……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經有過去的經驗……"],["許委員宇甄：現在事實上我們看到的，要嘛就是已經做到的，然後要嘛就是還遠遠落後的，我們希望這部分還是能夠好好地來處理。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會累積過去8年的經驗，讓我們繼續在這個基礎上往前走。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝院長。另外還要再請教您有關NFT的部分，我們之前在內政委員會審查詐欺犯罪危害防制條例草案的時候，本席有提到周杰倫的「無聊猿」NFT，因為詐騙被騙了千萬，這樣NFT的詐騙其實也層出不窮，但是我們從詐犯條例裡面看來並沒有規範到這一塊，當時我就問行政院打詐辦公室是由哪一個主管機關來負責的，打詐辦公室回復是無人可管，請問一下院長，到底NFT的主管機關是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：新型的、多樣化的這種金融行為，我們請金管會主委回答。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是金管會當主管機關嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，這件事情在前幾天由林政務委員負責這個案子的協調，過去行政院就已經指定具有投資跟支付性質的NFT是屬於金管會主管。"],["許委員宇甄：好，NFT如果是屬於金管會的話，因為到目前為止都還沒有專責機構，院長是不是能夠指定金管會當主管機關？"],["卓院長榮泰：已經是金管會主管了。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我們就把它放進打詐專法來規範，不要讓大家覺得NFT是可以用詐騙的方式來進行，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，委員，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第43位吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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黨都沒有辦法落實下去就是因為剛剛說的在分配上每個縣市都有各自不同的盤算所以造成在到最後都是停下來那歷史都是這個樣子所以我們今天要回頭看的是為什麼會產生這樣的困難各縣市的不同但是中央政府是用一般的補助款跟"},{"start":207.104,"end":232.422,"text":"院長您剛有提到嘛因為垂直分配跟水平分配的關係所以沒有辦法一直達到這個財化法修正的這個目標嘛那我跟您講一下目前我們國民黨團有提出一個版本這是國民黨邀請16個縣市所制定出來的財化法的一個修正的一個草案您可以看一下我們這個財化法的修正版本沒有藍綠之分就增加的比例來說"},{"start":233.303,"end":234.164,"text":"新竹市1.5倍、六都中新北增加1.3倍、台北增加0.6倍。"},{"start":255.447,"end":278.287,"text":"台南跟高雄在六都中的征服是居中間並沒有獨厚國民黨執政縣市的差距六都的這個比例也從61.76降到49%可以說是最能平衡城鄉差距也解決了您剛剛所提到的這個有關垂直分配跟水平分配的問題所以我想請教一下院長"},{"start":280.305,"end":291.86,"text":"我們可以看到國民黨版的財化法的修正有三大的重點。第一個是公平,讓各縣市的政府都能夠有最妥善的預算。"},{"start":292.967,"end":317.492,"text":"第二個是直接有效可以照顧全國2350萬的人民第三個可以讓整體的施政和國家發展都能夠逐步的向前那國民黨的這個版本呢我們看到的就是只有地方支付那請問行政院如果沒有辦法提出院版來的話是不是可以共同來支持我們的國民黨版的這個版本讓我們一起來幫賴總統實現他當院長時候的這個支票與達成在野黨"},{"start":322.693,"end":344.347,"text":"民進黨擔任在野黨的時候的理想,院長您覺得呢?對不起委員,現在的才化法的精神,我們就是朝向公平有效跟促進地方發展的原則去做,已經相當多年了。但是貴黨所提出的這個版本我看下去就是本來已經多的還會更多,本來已經少的也不見得再多。沒有喔,你看到我們剛剛已經講,六都本來是61.76%,現在降到49%,也就是說六都其實"},{"start":350.811,"end":377.568,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":378.445,"end":386.733,"text":"一般的補助款跟統籌分配稅款跟計劃型的補助來橫屏地方的發展。這已經行之多年。那我們可以...長照、延展、封建也不能否認"},{"start":400.945,"end":401.566,"text":"目前院長是誰?"},{"start":419.238,"end":445.505,"text":"那要看到受到院長關愛的眼神才有可能得到更多的補助那有的地方可能就是嗷嗷逮捕真的是米缸空了而且沒有辦法得到相對的補助所以我覺得有一定的公式跟標準我覺得有一定的公式跟標準的話應該就比較能夠有這樣子的一個公平有效的一個財務分配的方式那當然如果行政院沒有辦法提出院版的話那如果我們的這個國民黨團的這個版本這個通過之後"},{"start":449.669,"end":457.468,"text":"請問行政院會不會提復議?這是假設性的問題我們現在認為現行的版本是能夠照顧到地方照顧到人民"},{"start":458.291,"end":479.716,"text":"那中央不會用在站在中央為利益的考量上來做任何的觸發點這一點我們希望能夠再經過合理的對話那我想其實已經溝通那麼多年那其實大部分的縣市都覺得地方的財源是不夠的所以說這個部分的話表示財化法的修正回到精神前的6比4是有非常大的空間請院長要這個好好的跟我們的這個財政部這邊來去協調出一條最好的一個方式"},{"start":485.277,"end":510.778,"text":"請部長說明一下我現在不用部長說明謝謝因為剛剛院長已經大概有說明了那我再請院長看一下我們現在這個有幾個傳統的農業縣人口流失非常的嚴重包括苗栗、彰化、南投、雲林、嘉義、屏東那您知道這個農業縣的人口流失嚴重主要是因為什麼請教院長"},{"start":514.978,"end":529.837,"text":"農業線人口的流失經濟的多面向的發展還有人口老化問題都是一個原因因素其實農業線會有這樣的一個問題的話我想主要就是因為他的財政收入"},{"start":531.237,"end":546.374,"text":"﹗"},{"start":546.594,"end":573.348,"text":"我覺得修正財政收支劃分法才是最重要的另外我再請教一下院長要就較幾個國土計劃法上路之後所衍生的問題在104年12月國土計劃法立法通過之後為了確保國人的糧食安全政府也規劃全國移回戶農地的面積大概是81萬公頃這些土地不僅是生產糧食的基礎"},{"start":574.738,"end":600.713,"text":"更是維護國人食物安全的重要保障那這些農地因為不能夠隨意的變更所以影響農民的權益也甚巨加上這個受規範的縣市也沒有獲得合理的補償所以連帶影響農業縣市未來的發展恐怕也會造成農業縣市人口的加速的外流剛剛已經提到已經這個外流非常嚴重外漂非常嚴重"},{"start":601.933,"end":630.854,"text":"請問一下院長因為國土計劃法對農業的衝擊很大那現在有一些縣市也針對這個部分其實也提出很多的這個現在的問題希望能夠來改善所以會讓農業縣市有更長的時間準備也讓這些縣市有充分的可以跟這個農民溝通的一個機會請問一下我們的國土計劃法是不是能夠展延兩年讓這個計劃能夠推動得更為順利不會引起民怨"},{"start":631.496,"end":654.769,"text":"我們現在正在國土計畫法的這個程序當中預計明年要上路那今年的6月底希望各縣市能夠報上來各縣市的計畫那現在目前來看是只有三個縣市但是我們經過跟各縣市一一的詢問之後啊剛剛我們內政部劉部長已經說過了有四個縣市嗎?可能會有四個縣市是"},{"start":657.932,"end":661.133,"text":"您所關心的雲林縣是有困擾的但是我也要跟那個委員報告我們到目前為止辦了44場的這個說明會那雲林縣政府裡面的相關單位都非常清楚這個狀況我們也願意協助他"},{"start":688.241,"end":702.311,"text":"希望也是在6月底之前可以把這個國土功能分析計畫表送到我們內政部來做審查。因為我想雲林縣政府陳榮英剛剛講的就是很多有治案難行的問題沒有辦法解決也沒有辦法跟農民做"},{"start":702.793,"end":705.614,"text":"您可以看一下我們現在這個國土計劃法的這個您可以看一下我們現在雲林縣在之前提報的農醫是大概60839公頃占全國比例最高那"},{"start":727.425,"end":753.073,"text":"農一加農二是87,480公頃加起來也是全國最高但是您可以看到雲林縣它並不是農地面積最高的縣市最高的應該是屏東縣第二高的是台南市那為什麼這個大部分的我想縣市就為了發展地方盡量保留自己的壇心而目前申報最多的是雲林縣"},{"start":754.333,"end":774.099,"text":"當然這8萬多公頃的話將來土地只能從事農業的工作可能會影響雲林縣未來的發展所以院長在這一次我們看到農一農二的話設標準並不一致所以現在雲林縣打算參考屏東縣的版本把台塘地跟公有地化為農一私有地化為農二"},{"start":775.199,"end":799.441,"text":"那這樣雲林縣的這個農業面積就可以從60839公頃減為5836公頃那這樣子請問一下跟屏東縣的這個化射標準一致那請問院長跟部長支持嗎今天答覆很多委員的隨詢就是這種劃分的標準是全國各縣市一致的不會獨厚哪一個縣市但是這個劃分的細部的這個執行請部長來說明"},{"start":802.003,"end":825.876,"text":"我想跟委員報告,就是我們在農醫到農務本身的化設的原則是全國一致性的。但是同樣的縣市政府也會根據他當地的一個發展跟他的一個規劃,他會做一些調整。那每一次的縣市的國土的一個審議委員會的話,我想農業部都有派員去表達我們的專業意見跟提醒。那以現在目前來講,"},{"start":827.529,"end":833.413,"text":"市長,剛剛我請教就是說,是不是既然是全國的標準應該是一致的嗎?所以雲林縣是不是可以比照這個屏東縣的方式把這個農業農業重新的..."},{"start":853.285,"end":873.235,"text":"我剛才有說過了就是全國一致性的一個標準但是各縣市政府他會參照他們的相關的一個產業的需求那我們也會提供一個專業的意見我們會提供專業的意見如果說他畫的比例我舉個例子有一些像雲林縣也有有一些"},{"start":879.36,"end":899.636,"text":"我另外再請教一下院長,就是在2017年的時候,屏東縣長潘孟安表示,40多年前的區域計劃法實施的時候,屏東被劃定為農業區,從此判了屏東死刑。這對屏東來說很不公平。那潘孟安也不滿的說新北市的農地只有6000公頃,屏東卻超過8萬公頃。"},{"start":903.039,"end":922.339,"text":"憑什麼屏東只能作為糧倉新北市的土地就能被充分利用完全不公平那我想以這個邏輯來說對雲林縣來說可能更為不公平啊所以說在國土計劃法實施之後農民農地農用算不算是特別犧牲這樣會不會導致農民的權益受損影響農業縣市的發展所以"},{"start":925.101,"end":937.715,"text":"從明年開始是否可以把農民漁牧產值納入縣市補助經費的分配標準並制定補償農民的農業縣市的方案。報告委員各縣市尤其是農業用地"},{"start":939.264,"end":940.104,"text":"您可以看一下我們的這個"},{"start":966.19,"end":989.683,"text":"雲林這個從業人口我們可以看到就是以這個農業縣跟工商業的都市人民的可支配所得的差異臺灣的平均是一年是94萬雲林縣則67萬低於平均的27萬跟台北市的落差更高達58.3萬所以這個部分的話我們就看到就是農業縣的收入偏低所以呢對於這個"},{"start":990.763,"end":993.064,"text":"您剛有提到的不管是做什麼農業發展或什麼農業的這個您可以看一下"},{"start":1010.919,"end":1036.404,"text":"竹科它只有1375公頃就創造了1兆4千億的產值而雲林縣的88000公頃只能創造855億元的一個產值這就是由這個數字就可以看到區域發展的失衡跟落差所以說院長這個農業部也有說會優先投入農政資源於農醫、優蘭農地但投入什麼資源金額跟方式都沒有說清楚"},{"start":1036.724,"end":1056.138,"text":"我跟委員報告就是未來農業的次元第一個就是我們會以就是彰顯農民保護農地確保我們糧食安全的一個角度所以我們會對於環境的對綠綠色給付的部分然後用堆疊制的方式包括他的生態給付包括他種植的時候友善"},{"start":1058.258,"end":1081.383,"text":"這些的話我想都要充分的讓農民了解,他們才能夠針對國際計畫法實施之後,能夠給予更多的這個協助,讓他們更加了解。那當然我想您可以再看一下,其實請問院長知不知道我們現在的農地一公頃大概多少錢?農地?對,一公頃大概多少錢?各個地方應該不一樣吧?對,在平均來說。"},{"start":1086.076,"end":1106.194,"text":"三到五十萬應該有吧?平均一公頃的農地大概是一千五百萬啦但是呢事實上很多我們的這個比如越北部就像你剛講的越北部他的這個農地面積可能就更高那我有做了一個試算就是現在我們看到是農地每公頃的收入大概是12萬"},{"start":1107.475,"end":1122.927,"text":"五千九百三十六這是農地如果你種到的話但你們看一下下一張如果您是把這個原來的農地如果是因為地方的不同嘛如果是供請一千五百萬你把它拿去買台灣十年的公債"},{"start":1123.787,"end":1148.919,"text":"與美國10年的公債大概可以是24萬到66萬當然如果你買到的農地是8千萬的話那就就更多所以你就可以看到以這個數據來說如果你是農民的話你會選擇要種水稻還是乾脆賣地買公債呢所以說希望這個部分為了照顧這個因政策受損的農民行政院能否針對受限制且有實際耕作的這個農地給予對地補償"},{"start":1152.401,"end":1159.003,"text":"我們現在在做的就是對地幾戶的部分,對地幾戶的部分在從事農業的部分,我們會有個對別式。因為現在的對地補償好像只有1萬吧,相對的很低,那希望能夠提高這個對地補償。那另外再請教一下院長,就是我們現在可以看到,"},{"start":1176.147,"end":1196.539,"text":"全臺灣有6個縣市的老年人口的占比,超過20%,依序是嘉義、臺北、南投、雲林、基隆、屏東。那我們可以看到的是,現在這些縣市因為財政狀況的不同,所以說很多對老人福利都有不一樣的照顧。我們可以看到下一張,目前能夠有"},{"start":1197.84,"end":1198.361,"text":"請問院長是否同意?"},{"start":1221.216,"end":1250.276,"text":"議員報告我們現在對中低收入70歲以上以及65歲以上的老人家我們都有一些補助但是如果全面的用這樣的標準來看那必須考慮到政府的財政負擔我想這幾年其實政府都超徵了幾千億所以對於這個老人健保的部分這大概幾百億我覺得對於老人照顧真的非常重要我希望不要是因為生活在臺灣但同樣生活在臺灣卻同卡不同命"},{"start":1251.597,"end":1273.652,"text":"另外再請教一下我們的院長有關電力的問題。因為其實現在核電在今年的7月核三一號機就要停止運轉了。在明年的5月核三二號機也會停轉。請問一下我們現在其實大家都很擔心說"},{"start":1274.873,"end":1275.674,"text":"報告委員,我想我時空背景但是我沒有改變"},{"start":1303.188,"end":1330.462,"text":"但是可能是我這個之前的報告不夠精準不過我跟這個委員在這裡再報告一次我們的電是夠的怎麼夠您的這個配比然後總電量跟能源配比我們現在到2023年到2030年為止我們大概會下來700萬千瓦但是我們會上來910萬千瓦的電所以這些基載的電是夠的"},{"start":1332.264,"end":1345.334,"text":"那如果有一些這個我們大概有210萬千瓦但是我們如果做一些比較寬裕的這個假設同時有三個機組降下來的話"},{"start":1346.175,"end":1362.568,"text":"因為我們現在很多的這個能源燃料99%都是靠進口嘛那如果說因為我們現在如果是從海上進口因為天候的關係可能因為像之前大陸軍演的關係可能就也沒有辦法這個進到國內來那這樣子的話就可能造成會有缺電的問題"},{"start":1363.749,"end":1382.481,"text":"所以說這個部分我們這個能源配比是不是應該要多於更多文化那也可以設法減少對進口的依賴?是的,我們現在這個這一部分的我們有綠電在我們用風電跟光電以及除電來彌補另外一方面呢我們"},{"start":1384.122,"end":1408.955,"text":"您請問一下今年的電力夠用嗎?因為我知道你們的風電跟光電其實發電量好像都沒有達到目前的目標所以那只是一個備載的部分所以我們積載的部分還是一樣我剛才跟你們報告過了我們大概這個4年會上來914萬千瓦的電它是夠的這個我們根據這個市場上面的這一些調查"},{"start":1410.476,"end":1418.726,"text":"包括現在的AI可能會使用的對,剛剛講到AI因為現在大家事實上都在爭取AI產業到台灣來投資可是如果以現在這樣子的看來的話核能廚藝之後對於爭取AI的產業到台灣來"},{"start":1427.857,"end":1445.392,"text":"您們有信心臺灣不會缺電嗎?我們的估計是這樣的就是過去我們用成長大概1.8%的這樣的一個成長那我們因為AI所以我們把它調到大概2.92%的這個成長方式所以這個我們的估計應該是精準的"},{"start":1446.564,"end":1468.541,"text":"我想這個部分我知道部長很有信心但是外界不管是國外、國內甚至黃仁勳執行長他其實都有這樣的疑慮所以希望政府要拿出來這樣子的一個讓我們看到臺灣是不缺電的我們真正能夠發展AI產業否則的話錯誤的能源政策沒有辦法帶領臺灣在AI產業上走得更穩"},{"start":1471.483,"end":1474.144,"text":"接下來我要請教院長是社會住宅的問題就是我們可以看到就是"},{"start":1501.394,"end":1524.673,"text":"賴清德總統在競選的時候有高喊要興建社宅百萬戶,但是我們現在看到的好像是變成百萬租屋的家戶政策。院長您看一下,現在賴總統的社會住宅25萬戶,包租代管25萬戶,跟租金50萬戶,"},{"start":1526.544,"end":1526.944,"text":"這樣子的這個互數是對的嗎?"},{"start":1531.554,"end":1556.254,"text":"這是我們努力的目標。好,那您可以看得到我們那個租金補貼的部分,其實內政部到113年5月15號指,就已經核定了52萬2660戶了。也就是說,其實在你們賴總統就職前就已經有超過50萬戶的租金補貼了。那是不是代表我們這個租金補貼的50萬戶,其實你們還沒上任就已經KPI就達標了?"},{"start":1557.755,"end":1582.685,"text":"我們有討論過,請部長來說明。是,我想委員講得沒有錯,因為租金補貼它是比較快速,跟所謂的直接興建的社會住宅比較不一樣。所以呢,它確實是達到52萬戶以上。對,那就是說這個,其實你這個政策訂定的其實是等於前任的就完成了嗎?並不是現在才完成。因為它全部是社宅的租屋政策。也不是你們努力的目標嗎?它是一個package。"},{"start":1583.425,"end":1606.792,"text":"那您再看一下您剛講的這個社宅的部分喔您可以看到就是我們的這個統計表您可以往下一張就是我們現在看到的就是這是蔡政府時代的您當的25萬社宅是12萬戶是蔡政府的13萬戶是接下來賴政府你們要達成對不對可是事實上到現在蔡政府的任內還有24509戶是在規劃中的部長是嗎"},{"start":1613.972,"end":1628.122,"text":"我不曉得你講的是哪個item。就是在規劃中的有24509戶。我們的估計是到年底之前,盡量可以達到10萬戶到12萬戶。對,那就是原來的12萬戶。那25萬戶,就還有另外13萬戶的話,你們要在8年內,也就是7年內要達到,這樣有辦法做到嗎?因為過去的8年其實也只完成了大概不到10萬戶。"},{"start":1642.112,"end":1658.308,"text":"謝謝許委員的關心。我們未來會採取多元的取得土地,尤其是國公有的土地。然後我們也會跟民間企業一起來合作,他是不是也願意投入興建。那用這樣多元的方向的話,在短時間內,也就是說"},{"start":1659.329,"end":1659.369,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":1681.101,"end":1701.852,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":1701.997,"end":1702.157,"text":"謝謝,謝謝余院長"},{"start":1724.079,"end":1740.631,"text":"另外還要再請教您一個有關NFT的部分我們之前在內政委員會在審查詐欺犯罪違害防治條例草案的時候本席有提到就是周杰倫的一個NFT的無聊員因為詐騙被騙了千萬那這樣的NFT的詐騙其實也層出不窮但是我們從我們的這個詐煩"},{"start":1745.754,"end":1746.154,"text":"新型的多樣化"},{"start":1767.805,"end":1785.997,"text":"金管會會當主管機關嗎?這件事情我們在前幾天由林鄭委員負責這個案子的協調。我們在過去行政院就已經指定了具有投資跟支付性質的NFT是屬於金管會主管。"},{"start":1786.878,"end":1788.219,"text":"謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的備選。接下來我們請登記第43位吳宗憲委員"}]}},{"id":"154048","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154048","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c018532d0a2d580c78cf25b353bd3059915546a63521c4604b1fc5a65960676c3fd835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"16:17:40 - 16:35:06","影片長度":"00:17:26","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T16:17:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T16:35:06+08:00","duration":1046,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（16時18分）我們請院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：也請國防部部長。"],["主席：請顧部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長好，首先祝賀您新任院長，也希望在未來的這個時間裡面，我們可以一起為臺灣打造一個更好的未來。","首先想請教院長，不知道有沒有聽到最近美國印太司令部帕帕羅上將有透露出「地獄景象」的戰略，意思就是說美軍將在未來臺海戰事爆發的時候部署數以千計的無人載具，去擾亂中國軍隊，為美軍爭取時間。我為什麼說無人載具，而不說無人飛行器？因為包含海面上、海面下，都是無人載具的一部分。請問院長怎麼看待美軍的這個戰略？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在最近的俄烏戰爭、以哈戰爭當中，都陸續看到新形態的作戰方式，對臺灣來講，我們從以前到現在，一直認定採取一種不對稱的戰爭對臺灣的防衛系統是最有利的。這個部分我想我們在強化國防、發展自主國防力量的過程當中，一直朝向強化我們防衛系統這個方向來努力。顧部長雖然到國防部不久，他也提出了很多對國防部應興應革的事項，當然，對於傳統我們在發展的自主國防、強化國防力量的過程裡面，國防部一定扮演最重要的角色，我們一定用科技化、現代化來進行。"],["陳委員冠廷：當然要科技化跟現代化，我想烏俄戰爭也是一個很好的例子，就是我們希望利用我們的這種無人機、無人艦來彌補傳統兵力上面的不足，甚至來因應、增強。其實這次您的這一個政府是叫AI政府，AI的應用共創新局，那AI的應用在無人載具上面也有非常大的效用。部長，我們現在有劍翔反輻射無人機，我們也有騰雲長程偵打無人機，還有智龍一號的消防無人艇，你認為我們有足夠的無人機、無人艦來配合美軍執行這個戰略嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們雖然要發展臺灣的無人機產業，但是現在來講，我們還是要迎頭趕上，這個部分請部長來說明。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個，國軍還是要持續多元的管道來籌獲各類型的無人機，快速形成戰力，符合防衛作戰時序，所以如果你講說現在是不是足夠，我必須很坦誠的講，我們還是要持續來進行才能夠配合。剛剛你提到Paparo上將所提的，因為Paparo上將所提的這種所謂利用敵人的破綻，攻擊弱點的這種不對稱的作戰方式，我們要跟他配合的話，我們不但要有足夠的這些不同無人機的搭配以外，我們還要跟他進行有一些指管、敵我的識別，然後如何互相配合來運用，這個都還需要跟印太好好的談這件事情。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。我想我們剛才提到的部署無人載具，包含海面上、海面下，包含在空中飛行，高低配全部都要，不管是進口或者是在國內本土廠商的製作，我想烏俄戰爭每天、每個月所消耗的這種無人載具是非常大的，所以我們必須要確保我們國內有足夠的產業鏈，還有國內有足夠的企業願意投入這樣子的生產，所以我必須還是要說，等一下我們會談到民雄的航太園區，在那之前我還是要說，我們需要這樣子的無人機生產，就需要大規模的評測基地，不管是在測試也好，不管是提供場地也好，不管是在高階一點的無人機，我想大家應該知道美軍MQ-9這種高配的無人載具，或者是比較微型的無人機型，或者是在海面上、海面下，這全部都需要有一個完整的場地來做訓練。在其他的應用上面，我們更不用贅述，在消防上面、在農業上面的，所以無人機的產業它並不僅止於國家安全而已，它是全方面的產業，所以有看到經濟部長也上來，原因就是它不僅僅只是操控的人員在操控而已，它如果全部AI化的話，會進行自動的識別，未來在一些非典型、灰色地帶的戰略上面，對我們的威懾也可以稍微減輕，像是這次淡水發生的狀況，如果能夠大規模的部署相關的這一些機具、裝備的話，其實都可以更快偵測，或者是在偵測之後可以有其他的相應作為。","所以我是希望未來能夠跨部會去做協調，因為在農用的、在消防用的跟在軍用的，其實他們都有各種不同的應用方向跟方式，我是希望把評測的場地、評測的機制、評測的機會，全部都要更加頻繁、更加制度化，讓每一個在臺灣有志於國防產業的企業，都能夠加入我們國軍的這種建軍的規劃方案。除了國內，當然還有國外的，包含進口也是非常重要，我們希望未來能夠利用這樣子的無人載具來彌補我們在人員上面，可能沒有辦法像中國有這麼多人口，但是我們卻能夠用我們的這一種科技來去做相應的平衡，謝謝部長。","我們接下來要請國發會主委跟財政部部長，還有顧部長，國防部長，因為這個是民雄航太園區……"],["主席：打岔一下，陳委員，你還需要國防部長備詢嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：顧部長。"],["主席：再請國防部顧部長。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我簡單地來講一下我們的這一個無人機產業園區，民雄的無人機暨航太園區。今年的3月22號，我在這邊有問過陳建仁院長關於民雄航太暨無人機產業園區的部分，之前的狀況是因為經濟部沒有土地所有權，所以他們不想或者也不能進場開發，但是國防部有土地所有權，卻沒有開發的經驗，那個時候我問陳院長要由誰來開發？陳院長的答復是會後會交由副院長來召集協商，看是由國防部主責，或者是經濟部主責。所以我想請教一下，我聽到的消息是4月15日有開過一次專案會議，要把開發的主導權給國防部，我想確認這是已經決議的事情嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，您問的大概是民雄院區東、西側這兩側的部分？"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯。"],["顧部長立雄：東側基地的部分是中科院，大概是25公頃，這是中科院；委員關切的是西側29公頃作為航太暨無人機產業園區的部分，這個部分要規劃相關的民間廠商進駐，這個部分應該就是由國發會，現在開發建設計畫書大概由國發會會辦各部會在審查當中，我想國發會會全權來進行。"],["陳委員冠廷：想請問國發會主委，接下來會是由哪一個部會進行整個產業開發的主導？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告一下，坦白講，不好意思，我目前並沒有掌握到這個案子，是不是事後再來跟您回報實際的狀況？"],["陳委員冠廷：所以產業園區的部分，經濟部會主導嗎？現在都還沒有決議嘛？4月15日的專案會議還沒有決議？是產業的部分，我不是說由中科院的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：產業，就西側的部分嘛？"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["顧部長立雄：因為委員在關切西側的部分嘛！"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["顧部長立雄：西側的部分，因為整個要包括各部會的職掌，所以我的瞭解就是中科院提供土地，相關開發建設的經費在之前的決議是由國發會負責，現在在審查開發建設的計畫書，就我的瞭解，西側的部分是如此，東側的部分當然是由中科院來負責。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長是不是可以簡單的回應一下您所知道的部分？或者是主委？"],["卓院長榮泰：4月15日……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我們可以會後再討論，我主要是希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：4月15日有一個會議，它是說開發的主體，現在初步的會議結論當中，協調的結果是由國防部要來接手，現在這個事情還沒有真的進行下去，我請顧部長再瞭解一下……"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：針對4月15日以後的會議如何再繼續的執行。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。那我們繼續跟院長質詢，其他部長可以先回座。"],["主席：謝謝各部會首長。"],["顧部長立雄：我再check一下4月15日的會議紀錄，會後再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。院長，我為什麼要針對這件事情希望儘速瞭解狀況？因為現在會出現時程的問題跟預算的問題，如果我們沒有辦法在今年7月核定航太暨無人機產業園區，那就沒有辦法在114年展開建設開發，我想未來賴總統的這四年，每一分每一秒都是我們發展開拓的一個好機會，所以不希望有任何一天讓時間流逝掉。所以想請教院長，這樣的行程非常的緊，大概剩下一個月多的時間，可不可以請院長親自來協調一下，看怎麼樣可以讓它的開發可以更加的順遂？"],["卓院長榮泰：您說民雄的無人機基地？"],["陳委員冠廷：對，就民雄，因為我們在……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也一直希望臺灣能夠成為亞洲民主的供應鏈，在無人機的產業當中，至少我們提供民主的，而且是優質的、持續的，所以針對這個專案的處理，我想總統也是把它列為相當大的產業，是五大信賴產業之一，所以我們也一定朝這個方向來做更緊密的聯繫，剛剛提到國防部要負責督導中科院去做好這件工作，這個我會繼續好好追蹤下去。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝院長，因為那兩個地方就是一個園區分東、西兩側，兩側都不可以有任何一個地方是荒廢的，特別是在產業園區的部分，我們是希望更多產業能夠真正的進駐到裡面，所以刻不容緩，再拜託院長儘快去協調，讓這件事情可以做得更好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["陳委員冠廷：第二件事情是經費的問題，剛才也提到根據財政單位的意見，如果是國防部主導開發，中科院大概是要負擔26億元，中科院現在已經在推動東側園區的第一期工程，接下來還要設備的投資、產線的投資，我是很擔心它沒有什麼預算去開發西邊的產業園區，所以我希望建請行政院公共建設的預算全額挹注，去辦理那邊的園區開發，這部分是不是可以請院長檢討？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長有提到東側大約25公頃，西側是29公頃。相關的預算，東側是11億左右，西側現在開發經費要達到將近70億，我們會循預算的程序，因為既然把它列為重要的國家發展，而且也是跟軍工相關，如果列為非常重要的發展科目的話，當然我們會比較優先來處理，但是我們會循預算程序來辦理。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，再請院長能夠優先處理這個部分。接下來也是跟我們民雄航太園區相關，從最開始的無人機產業、民雄無人機暨航太產業園區，到現在相接壤的民雄鐵路高架化的部分，行政院是在2023年5月核定嘉義縣市鐵路高架化延伸計畫，就是所謂的民雄鐵路高架化，民雄鐵路高架化就是要跟嘉義市區的鐵路高架化互相連結，打造便利的鐵路運輸系統。據我的瞭解，現在的鐵路高架化進度是在基本設計的階段，今年底送工程會審議完就可以進入細部設計的階段，細部設計大概是半年，接下來就是臨時軌、高架橋的工程、民雄車站站體。院長，如果整個時程可以順利地走下去，臨時軌的工程是不是在明年5月就可以正式開始施工？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，本項計畫經費也相當龐大，達173億，長期的目標是希望在2031年能夠高架通車，我想交通部也在努力，希望在明年5月臨時軌能夠開工，這個是交通部努力的目標。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：工程的進行應該是順利，請交通部說明。"],["陳委員冠廷：另外就是主體工程，明年10月是不是可以儘快地開工？"],["李部長孟諺：希望在明年底……"],["陳委員冠廷：我必須要強調，民雄的鄉親非常期待鐵路高架化的正式動工，所以第一支高架橋墩的設置、第一段臨時軌道的設置時，絕對會給整個民雄地區的民眾有很大的振奮感，因為他們看到的是次世代的產業及次世代的交通建設全部同時都會做好，部長，可不可以請你全力來促成？"],["李部長孟諺：我們來努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：全力促成，明年10月喔！"],["李部長孟諺：大概是明年年底前。"],["陳委員冠廷：好！明年10月，謝謝部長。","接下來要請農業部及財政部。院長，我是屬於嘉義山區的立法委員，我的選區雖然有10個鄉鎮，但是選區面積最大的是阿里山鄉。阿里山上面主要都是國有的林地，所以山上最重要的就是居住權。過去國有林地上面有提供既有的居住使用權，原本行政院是打算要修正國有林地濫墾地續辦清理作業要點，國有林地是從58527改成各地方政府第一次非都市土地辦理使用的公告日期，嘉義縣第一次非都的公告是75年11月1日，目前這個方案的進度呢？我補充一下，各部會對這個方案有疑義，是因為大家的第一次非都公告時間是有差別的，比方我們嘉義是75年11月……想請教一下部長，是不是可以簡單地跟我們說明？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員簡單地報告，我們會朝向對於整個現況最有利的方式去處理，所以我們現在在盤點相關濫墾地地上物的部分，如果可以符合公有非公用的部分，後續我們會做解編，解編完了以後我們會跟國產署去討論怎麼樣移交給國產署，交給國產署以後才有所謂的82721那樣的條例。"],["陳委員冠廷：82721是我們想要去……好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是朝向這樣子，但是後面有一些地目解編的部分還要經過盤查。"],["陳委員冠廷：細部再去討論，但是希望82721這個至少先把它做好。"],["陳部長駿季：我們是朝向這個目標，但是還要再跟國產署討論。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個事情確實不是只有嘉義這個地方而已，從南投到嘉義，下去到高雄、屏東，希望還是能夠有一些進展。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會繼續努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：這部分再麻煩院長，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這個問題我們以書面來補充答復，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩農業部把書面資料給陳委員。謝謝陳委員質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第42位許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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188.788,"text":"所以部長我們現在有建翔反輻射無人機,我們也有騰雲長城增打無人機,還有志榮一號的消防無人艇,你認為我們有足夠的無人機無人艦來配合美軍來執行這個戰略嗎?雖然現在發展台灣的無人機的產業,但是現在來講我們還是要迎頭趕上,那這個部分請部長來說明。跟委員報告,第一個就是說國軍還是要持續這個多元的管道來籌貨這個各類型的無人機來快速形成戰力。"},{"start":190.46,"end":214.382,"text":"護和防衛作戰時序所以如果你講說現在是不是足夠我必須很坦誠的講我們還是要持續來進行才能夠配合剛剛你提到的這個帕巴洛上將所提的因為帕巴洛上將所提的這種護和這種所謂利用敵人的破綻攻擊落點的這種的不對稱的作戰的方式我們要跟他配合的話我們不但有足夠的這些"},{"start":215.424,"end":225.815,"text":"不同無人機的搭配以外我們還要跟他進行有一些指管敵國的識別然後如何互相配合來運用這個都還需要跟印太要好好的談這件事情"},{"start":226.525,"end":250.86,"text":"謝謝部長。我想我們剛才提到的部署無人載具,那包含是海面上海面下,包含在空中飛行,高低配全部都要,不管是進口或者是在國內本土廠商的這個製作。我想在無人戰爭是每天每個月所消耗的這種無人載具是非常大的。所以我們必須要確保我們國內有足夠的產業鏈,還有國內有足夠的企業願意投入這樣子的生產。"},{"start":251.801,"end":275.693,"text":"所以我必須還是要說等一下我們會談到民雄的航太園區在那之前我還是要說我們這樣子的需要的這樣的無人機的生產就需要大規模的評測的基地不管是在測試也好不管是提供場地也好不管是在高階一點的無人機我想大家應該知道美軍的這個MQ-9這種高配的這種無人載具或者是比較微型的無人機型"},{"start":276.153,"end":276.333,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":301.454,"end":321.903,"text":"那未來在一些我們非典型的灰色的這種地帶的這種戰略上面對我們的威懾也可以稍微減輕那像是在這次淡水發生的狀況其實如果能夠在大規模的部署相關的這一些機具裝備的話其實都可以更快偵測或者是說在偵測之後可以有其他的相應作為"},{"start":322.443,"end":347.793,"text":"所以我是希望說未來能夠跨部會來去做協調因為在農用的、在消防用的跟在軍用的其實他們都有各種不同的應用的方向跟方式我是希望把評測的場地、評測的機制、評測的機會全部都要更加平凡、更加制度化讓每一個在臺灣有志於國防產業的企業都能夠加入我們國軍的這種建軍的規劃方案"},{"start":350.194,"end":373.75,"text":"那除了國內當然還有國外的我們包含進口也是非常重要我們希望說未來能夠利用這樣子的無人載具來去彌補說我們可能在人員上面可能沒有辦法像中國有辦法這麼多人口但是我們卻能夠用我們的這種科技來去做一個相應的去做平衡那謝謝部長那我們接下來要請這個國發會主委跟財政部長"},{"start":384.33,"end":392.602,"text":"還有顧部長。國防部長。因為這個是民雄航太園區。因為民雄航太園區這邊...顧部長顧部長再請國防部"},{"start":408.111,"end":433.658,"text":"部長我簡單的來講一下我們的這個無人產業園區民雄的無人機及航太園區那今年的3月22號我在這邊有問過陳建遠院長關於民雄航太及無人機產業園區的部分那之前的狀況是因為經濟部沒有土地所有權所以他們不想或許也不能進場開發但是國防部有土地所有權但是卻沒有開發的這個經驗那那個時候我問陳院長說要由誰來開發"},{"start":436.618,"end":462.684,"text":"那時候陳院長的答覆是說會後會交由副院長來召集協商看是由國防部主責或者是經濟部主責所以我想請教一下我聽到的消息是4月15號有開過一次專業的會議專案的會議就是說要把開發的主導權給國防部我想確認這是已經決議的事情嗎跟委員報告您問的大概是那個民雄縣區的東西側兩側的這個兩個"},{"start":465.543,"end":477.8,"text":"那東側基地的部分是中科院大概是25公頃這是中科院西側你關切的西側29公頃的那個部分作為航太及無人機產業這個部分呢要規劃這個相關的民間廠商進駐"},{"start":482.369,"end":503.858,"text":"那這個部分應該就是由這個國發會他現在開發建設計畫書大概由國發會來會辦各部會在審查當中那這個會加我想國發會會來會來全權來進行想請問國發會那所以是主委現在是由哪一個部會接下來會進行整個產業的開發的主導"},{"start":507.481,"end":512.063,"text":"所以產業園區的部分經濟部會主導嗎?現在都還沒有決議嗎?4月15號的那個還專案的這個會議還沒有決議。產業的部分喔,我不是說有中科院的部分,產業的部分。"},{"start":533.829,"end":557.89,"text":"就產業就西側的部對因為委員在關切的西側的部分對西側的部分的話他大概相關的因為整個要包括各部會的一個所以我的了解我的了解是中科院提供這個土地那相關的開發的建設的經費在之前的決議裡面由國會來"},{"start":559.708,"end":563.372,"text":"部長是不是可以簡單的回應一下您所知道的部分?或者是主委?"},{"start":580.323,"end":600.62,"text":"沒關係,我們可以會後再討論,那我主要是希望說．現在在那個初步的會議結論當中,是協調的結果,是由國防部要來接手。那現在這個事情還沒有真的進行下去,我請顧部長再了解一下。好,謝謝院長,謝謝。對7月15日以後的這個會議,如何再繼續的執行。"},{"start":604.022,"end":609.833,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝,那就院長就好了,那我們繼續跟院長質詢,其他部長可以先,謝謝各部會組長,謝謝各部會組長,謝謝部長,謝謝"},{"start":617.233,"end":634.782,"text":"院長我為什麼要針對這件事情我希望盡速的瞭解的狀況因為現在會出現時程的問題跟預算的問題如果我們沒有辦法在今年7月核定航太機無人機產業園區的話那就沒有辦法在114年展開建設開發所以我想我們"},{"start":635.842,"end":656.058,"text":"未來賴總統的這四年每一分每一秒都是我們發展開拓的一個好機會。所以我不希望有任何一天讓他這個時間流失掉。所以想請教院長說這樣的行程非常的緊大概剩下一個月多的時間可不可以請院長親自來協調一下看怎麼樣可以讓他這個開發可以更加的順遂。"},{"start":657.353,"end":680.957,"text":"您說是民雄的這個,我們也一直希望台灣能夠成為亞洲民主的供應鏈,在無人機的這個產業當中,至少我們提供民主的而且是優質的,而且是持續的,所以針對這個專案的處理啊,我想總統也是把它列為相當大的這個五大信貸產業之一,所以我們也一定朝這個方向來做更緊密,所以剛剛"},{"start":681.755,"end":682.255,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒,謝謝。"},{"start":707.81,"end":722.921,"text":"那第二個事情就是說經費的問題啦,剛才也提到齁,就是說根據財政單位的意見,如果是國防部來去主導開發的話,那中科院大概是要付26億,負擔26億元。那中科院現在已經在推動東側園區的低級工程。"},{"start":724.682,"end":745.514,"text":"那接下來還要設備的投資產線的投資我是很擔心他沒有什麼預算來去開發西邊的產業園區所以我是希望建請行政院用公共建設的預算全額去役主那邊來去辦理那邊的園區開發這部分是不是可以請院長來檢討剛剛部長有提到東側大概約25公頃西側是29公頃那相關的預算東側是11億左右西側現在"},{"start":752.301,"end":752.862,"text":"好,在請院長能夠優先處理這個部分"},{"start":772.602,"end":800.928,"text":"那也是跟我們民雄航太園區從我們最開始的無人機的產業到我們的民雄航太園區無人機產業園區到我們現在相接養的這個民雄鐵路的高架化的部分這個部分要請院長行政院是在2023年5月是有核定嘉義縣市鐵路高架化延伸計畫就是所謂的我們的民雄鐵路高架化那民雄鐵路高架化就是要跟嘉義市區的鐵路高架化來互相連結來去打造這個便利的鐵路運輸系統"},{"start":802.388,"end":827.635,"text":"據我的了解,現在的鐵路高架進入是在基本設計的階段。那今年底送工程會審議完就可以進入細部設計的階段。那細部設計大概是半年。那接下來就是臨時軌、高架橋的工程還有民雄車站站體。院長如果整個時程可以順利的走下去,是不是可以在臨時軌的工程在明年的5月就可以正式開始施工?"},{"start":828.433,"end":828.995,"text":"是的,本項計畫經費也相當龐大,有173億。"},{"start":834.156,"end":858.402,"text":"長期的目標是希望在2031年能夠交高價通車那希望大家我想交通部也在努力能夠在明年的5月讓他能夠臨時軌能夠開工這個是交通部努力的一個目標那這個工程的進行應該是順利另外就是主體工程明年10月是不是可以來趕他盡快的來給他開工"},{"start":859.273,"end":882.996,"text":"我必須要強調好因為民雄的鄉親是非常期待鐵路高架化的正式的動工所以當你的第一支高架橋墩的設置你第一段臨時軌道的設置它絕對是會給整個我們這個民雄地區的民眾有很大的振奮感因為他們看到的是次世代的產業跟次世代的這些交通建設全部同時都會做好部長這可不可以請你來全力來促成我們來努力"},{"start":883.851,"end":884.572,"text":"接下來要請農業部跟財政部"},{"start":901.108,"end":916.72,"text":"議長,我們嘉義當然我是屬於山區的立法委員所以說我們的選區雖然說有10個鄉鎮但是選區面積最大是阿里山鄉那阿里山上面主要都是國有的林地所以山上最重要的就是居住權那居住權的部分"},{"start":917.941,"end":937.293,"text":"關於過去國有林立上面有提供既有的居住使用權的部分,原本行政院是打算要修正濫墾地續辦清查的要點。國有林立是從58527改成各地方政府第一次非都市土地辦理使用的公告的日期。"},{"start":937.873,"end":952.084,"text":"加一線第一次飛都的公告是75年11月1號那目前這個方案的進度呢我補充一下齁因為各部會對這個方案有疑義是因為大家的第一次飛都的公告時間是有差別的比方說我們加"},{"start":955.851,"end":956.271,"text":"陳冠廷陳冠廷"},{"start":974.315,"end":974.535,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚"},{"start":1015.95,"end":1016.871,"text":"接下來我們請登記第42位徐宇珍委員質詢"},{"start":1036.138,"end":1036.558,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢"}]}},{"id":"154047","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154047","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1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- 16:07:12","影片長度":"00:30:48","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T15:36:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T16:07:12+08:00","duration":1848,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（15時36分）謝謝院長，麻煩幫我邀請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：院長好。剛上任，大家認識一下，我是廖先翔，本人頭髮比較少，不好意思，也比較胖一點。","院長，首先請教一個問題，您在剛上任來備詢的時候，我們洪孟楷書記長於31號在立法院質詢及剛剛邱鎮軍委員的質詢都有提問到NCC委員的部分，因為行政院在4月30號已經提名了，針對這些NCC的委員，請問卓院長是要選擇替這份名單背書，還是會提出其他人選？當時您的回答是說會檢視名單，在最短時間讓立法院看到，已經十多天、兩個禮拜過去了，您的回復是什麼？目前有沒有最新回復？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，因為這個名單現在在大院裡面，我不曉得在程序上，如果大院還會再討論這案子的話，程序就會繼續走；如果不討論的話，應該我們也可以有其他的想法、作法。"],["廖委員先翔：所以您目前對NCC人事案沒有自己的立場？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛有委員垂詢時我說過，是不是跟朝野各黨團談一下，之前送來的名單到底還是不是目前要審同意權的名單。"],["廖委員先翔：照程序，陳院長送來的名單當然算數嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["廖委員先翔：但是我們立法院也要看一下現任行政院長的想法，畢竟是責任政治嘛，您要為陳建仁院長的名單背書，還是您要提自己的名單，我們也要看一下院長的看法，還是您對於NCC的人事沒有立場，就擺爛這樣子而已？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我希望朝野能夠談一談，朝野黨團能談一談，我們也可以表示一下意見。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以院長，原則上我的解讀是您對陳院長所提出的NCC委員名單沒有特別的看法，應該是這樣子吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我不便表示什麼特別的看法，因為名單已經在大院裡面了，程序在走。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝院長，這個NCC的題目就到這邊。","下一題，國人實質薪資的問題在今天也造成了許多討論，有網友說6萬3就像看到鬼，針對這樣的數字，我想還是先讓我們的行政部會再解釋一下，針對網友的解讀，6萬3就像是看到鬼，或者說6萬3有沒有追得上國家的物價通膨率，為什麼與民眾的感受度差距這麼多？我想趁這個機會也讓我們院長或長官有說明的機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：我原則性先向委員答復，因為在還沒有公布前我看到這個數字時，我們也是跟主計總處說，如果社會看到這個數字對我們會提出一些問題來，但這個絕對不是無憑無據的，也是用傳統的計算方式、總平均的計算方式，現在大家比較能夠接受的大概是中位數的平均數來揭示會比較好，但是你也知道我們才到行政院不到一個月的時間，已經沒有辦法在這麼短時間內做大幅度的更動，但是我已經在日前請主計總處主計長，希望未來朝向更公平計算的方式。我的想法是，讓人民看到這個數字是跟自己接近的，而且是有感情的，是有溫暖的，而主計總處也會朝這個方向來做，至於怎麼做，我們請主計長來說明。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，請主計長補充。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。報告委員，這一次我們公布的時候，因為我們以往都只公布平均薪資，但我們這次是把各行業的薪資都公布出來。這一次因為各行業裡面，譬如說住宿和餐飲的平均薪資是三萬四，但是金融和保險業就高達七萬多，所以這兩個的平均數就會有點偏高。至於中位數的部分，院長有指示要公布中位數，但是我們以往中位數都是一年才出一次，所以這部分我們也努力在近幾個月用大數據的方式來蒐集，希望也能夠每個月呈現中位數的數據，讓大家能夠感受自己的薪資比較趨近於中位數的數字，比較不會感覺到有差距這麼大。以上補充。"],["廖委員先翔：再請問一下，當然，國人對這樣的數字有一些討論，我想請問一下院長，現在國人的實質總薪資平均是六萬三，那對於實質總薪資平均不到六萬三的民眾，院長有沒有什麼話想要對這些人說？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然知道多數國人的薪資是不到這個平均數的，所以主計長剛剛說的，用各個行業別來把它做進一步的……"],["廖委員先翔：我是問你有沒有什麼話想對這些人說，不是請你解釋這個數字。"],["卓院長榮泰：目前來看，這也許是一個比較可以做到，讓大家感受得到跟自己比較接近，但是針對這些不到平均數……"],["廖委員先翔：你有什麼話想對他們說？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府、企業跟每個人共同努力，我們把薪資再拉高，因為臺灣已經是一個高科技備受世界矚目的國家，我們應該有能力將科技業發展出來的整個經濟發展果實讓全民共享，所以我們提出創新驅動、普惠大眾，希望大眾都能夠享受到這樣的成果，這個就是未來整個內閣團隊全面在推動的重要工作。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我想就是一個分配正義的問題，不患寡而患不均……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那就再麻煩行政院繼續加油，在分配的部分能夠平均的雨露均霑，而不是只有科技業享受我們臺灣經濟這幾年成長的紅利，好不好？那就麻煩。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，也請委員一起努力。"],["廖委員先翔：院長，下一個議題就是巴黎奧運要到了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員先翔：你應該知道嘛。想請問一下，在院長的眼中，我們的國球是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：棒球一直是我們的國球，但是我們的桌球近年來也是好手盡出，那在羽毛球，甚至網球都是我們可以向世界……"],["廖委員先翔：每一種球類都很好，我們都要鼓勵，但是跟院長報告，其實我們臺灣的國球應該是贏球啦！贏球，只有贏球的那一個體育項目才會受到國家高度的關注，只有贏球。我想說的是，不管是任何比賽，或者是我們在發展全民體育的時候，我們關注的角度不應該只是看到那個第一名的，而是所有在過程中努力過的每一個人，有留下成績的人，應該都需要受到我們的關注。可能這也涉及到我們國人運動風氣的問題，如果我們什麼東西都只關注到第一名，只給他最豐厚的獎勵，那大家從事運動的風氣可能就會比較差一點。","現在我要跟院長討論一下獎金的問題，先讓院長看一下我們整理的資料。奧運冠軍從民國91年一次領1,000萬，到93年提升到1,200萬，月領7萬5,000塊，現在一次領跟月領的金額，不曉得院長知不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是這樣的數字。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，這是93年的，我們調過，我們國家沒那麼摳啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在2018年賴總統時任行政院長的時候，有對獎金再做比較更……"],["廖委員先翔：奇怪，我很疑惑，為什麼教育部長不上來救援你一下？沒關係，這個東西其實是比較細的，我也沒有一定要院長能夠答得出來，只是讓院長知道一下背景數字。我們給院長看一下現在的獎金大概是多少。一次領是2,000萬，月領是12萬5,000元，其實金額已經不低了，也都有一些顯著性的成長，這個金額大概是104年調整的，至今已經10年沒有調整，我認為金牌獎金其實大家不會說很低，當然多多益善，能夠提高當然是很好的。那我們來看一下銀牌，也是一樣，從500萬提升到600萬，那個是93年的，依照剛剛的1,000萬變成2,000萬，亞軍從一開始500萬到現在，你猜我們亞軍的獎金有沒有一樣比率的成長？你知道現在獎金是多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該有成長。"],["廖委員先翔：有成長，一定有成長啊！冠軍從1,000萬變2,000萬，那請您猜一下亞軍、銀牌的獎金，部長也不知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不清楚，大概1,000到1,200吧！"],["廖委員先翔：跟部長報告、跟院長報告，我們現在的亞軍是從500萬調到700萬，月領是3萬8,000元，這個部分從民國94年就沒有調漲過了。其實我們剛剛看到金牌在103年、104年有調整過了，但亞軍、銀牌已經20年沒有調漲了，銅牌也是類似的情況。我們奧運的銅牌、季軍原來是400萬，請你們再猜一下現在調成多少金額？"],["鄭部長英耀：500萬。"],["廖委員先翔：還滿準的，就是500萬，季軍只調整了100萬，從400萬變成500萬，那也是20年沒有調了，就是月領2萬4，從民國94年到現在，已經20年沒調了。所以金牌大概10年沒調，而銀牌跟銅牌已經20年沒調，這個就是我剛剛講的，我們好像就只重視金牌，我們永遠只重視那個成績第一名的人，不管是我們的學術或者是體育，我們眼中只有看到那一個人，然後我們去增加對他的獎勵。我們再看下一張我整理的表，這一張就比較清楚了，確實從民國91年到113年，金牌的獎金翻倍了，我們當然是肯定，因為多多益善，有12萬5，金牌是翻了100%；銀牌只翻了40%，從500萬多了200萬；銅牌只翻了25%，從400萬變成500萬。剛才講的是一次領的部分，至於月領的部分，其實差距就更大了，從91年到113年的增幅已經不一樣了，我們已經有大小眼了。在月領的部分，我們看到金牌月領12萬5，大概是2,000萬的0.62%；銀牌是3.8萬，是700萬的0.54%；銅牌是2萬4,000元，是500萬的0.48%。一樣都是從一次性的獎金變成月領的獎金，結果這個比率怎麼會是不一樣的？你們有辦法做一些解釋嗎？對這個結構性問題其實我不太瞭解，你說一次性獎金的調整不一樣，你說你只獎勵第一名，沒有關係，不過我當然不鼓勵，我們希望是全體一起調整，可是怎麼會連月領的部分占一次領總獎金的比率也不一樣？有辦法解釋嗎？還是說院長認為這個有調整的空間與必要？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得這個是希望他能夠在比較長的時間裡面對自己的生活或是其他方面有比較穩定的獎金分配，所以是不是鼓勵他往這個方向去……"],["廖委員先翔：對，月領沒有問題啊！那我可能講得不是很清楚，我的問題是，金牌月領12萬5,000元，它只是2,000萬的0.62%，照理來說，我們要給銀牌選手月領的獎金應該也是700萬的0.62%，因為金牌的比率是0.62%，但銀牌卻只有0.54%，這個不合理吧！有瞭解我的意思嗎？還是部長要補充說明一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，我想如果按照那個比率，和金牌的比率相比，銀牌跟銅牌確實是略微低了一點。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["鄭部長英耀：當然我們在過去有討論，國人大家都會希望對奪金的人給予更高的鼓勵跟支持，關於他們詳細的討論內容，是不是容我會後再跟委員報告？"],["廖委員先翔：好，我們代表團已經是這兩個月的事情了，希望能夠在他們出發前來做一個檢討，至少在比率上要一樣，然後金額部分也看看能不能調整，在我們的選手出國前給他們一個鼓勵跟打氣，好不好？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝院長。我補充一下，帕運也是一樣，不過帕運我就沒有時間講了，我們重視奧運，而帕運的討論度比較差，關於身心障礙的朋友，我也希望我們能夠多加一些關注，一併來檢視。","另外，選手搭商務艙這件事情都確定了嗎？代表我們中華民國出國去參加奧運的每一位選手的商務艙都訂好了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們之前有開過一次內部的會議，我要求選手們怎麼去、怎麼回、怎麼吃、怎麼住，我們要非常細心地照顧他們，這目前在執行當中。"],["廖委員先翔：商務艙這個東西應該是潘部長之前，就是今年在這邊承諾過，不曉得你們認不認他這個承諾？每一位選手出去一定都是搭商務艙，我們做得到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會優先這樣想，但是有時候要配合班次、航班、飛機的設計……"],["廖委員先翔：這個選手聽了會……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們真的是列為重要的工作。"],["廖委員先翔：選手聽了會有點失望啦，好不好？有的人出去是搭商務艙，有的人搭經濟艙，哪個項目是商務艙、哪個項目是經濟艙，能這樣比嗎？對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在一定照這個方向做，如果班次發生困難，可能要做其他……"],["廖委員先翔：排除一切困難，給我們選手最好的出國比賽的交通運輸，希望每一位選手出國比賽、奧運選手出國比賽都有商務艙可以搭。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員先翔：拜託院長跟部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，這是一定要做到的。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。接下來下一個議題，部長先請回。請教一下院長，關於我們的監獄，原則上，如果我們要蓋一個監獄的話，我們會選擇有哪些條件的情況下來蓋監獄？"],["卓院長榮泰：興建監獄的條件？"],["廖委員先翔：對，如果你想蓋一個監獄的話，它所在地的環境，你會希望它是怎樣的一個環境？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，它除了有足夠的空間之外，對周遭的環境衝擊要小一點。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：也許它也必須要做一些監獄內外的管理，要比較能夠……"],["廖委員先翔：對，離市區遠一點嘛！原則上就是比較荒郊野外一點的概念，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：也不一定是荒郊野外。"],["廖委員先翔：就是離市區遠一點，跟生活圈有點不太一樣嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：衝擊性小一點。"],["廖委員先翔：對，好，接下來我就是要問社宅問題，原則上，我們賴總統在去年選舉的時候有宣布百萬社宅，扣掉租金補貼50萬戶，大概就剩50萬戶，50萬戶之後再扣掉包租代管25萬戶，原則上社宅就是25萬戶，蔡總統之前是12萬戶，所以25扣掉13，所以賴總統就是13萬戶，然後中央是三分之二、地方三分之一，所以賴總統的責任，依照這樣算下來的話，他的任內應該要完成8萬6,000戶，大概是這個數字嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：差不多。"],["廖委員先翔：差不多嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["廖委員先翔：院長能承諾這8萬6,000戶可以在幾年內完成？"],["劉部長世芳：目前我們的目標是8年內完成。"],["廖委員先翔：8年內蓋完？還是規劃？還是……"],["劉部長世芳：我們目前的目標是8年內，但是你說8年內蓋完，我覺得這樣太誇張，但是我們一定會朝這個目標前進，8年內是個很長的時間。"],["廖委員先翔：希望8年內能蓋完，好，OK。我們當然是支持社會住宅，只是說地點，就是我剛剛一開始為什麼問監獄這個地點，這個地點在之前、上一屆有人在做討論，當時的邱泰源委員有問說，社會住宅是不是貧民窟？現在的花董事長說不可能是貧民窟，我們要興建的社會住宅一定是選擇在交通比較便捷、發展已經相對成熟的地方，而不會特別蓋到郊區或一些比較特別的地方。這個論述跟剛剛院長講的差不多，就是跟既有的發展區不會隔得太遠，但目前我們在汐止挑社宅的地方，我就有很大的疑問。我們汐止曾經有3個地方有討論要蓋社宅，最後目前行政院核定的大概只有1處，就是在我們的白匏湖，就是右下角圖片上這個可能顏色比較淡一點、有一個圓圈圈的部分，上面就是市區，然後一條路的部分就是高速公路，下面這邊原本是我們的監獄預定地，我們會蓋監獄的地方，就如同剛剛院長講的，可能離人煙比較……就是會有點距離，不會影響、衝擊到我們既有的生活圈，結果現在內政部唯一可能、目前確定要蓋的就是在我們的監獄預定地，那我就有很大疑問，我們就好像是為了去衝這個數量，所以就隨便找了一些地，那就違背了剛剛院長講的話、違背了當初花次長在我們立院所做的答詢，直接蓋在一個荒郊野外，地大嘛，隨便我們蓋嘛，然後就蓋了很多戶，反而地方民眾希望蓋的地方，包括我們汐止有兩處，你們不一定知道在哪裡，一個是保長坑的營區、國防部的土地，目前正要做變更，結果住都中心居然說因為裡面有一座電塔，它是鄰避設施，所以他們不太想蓋。電塔部分，你也可以下令啊，它是台電的，台電也是行政院所轄，這都是中央政府的事情，結果搞到現在要做公設解編，地方政府拿他們分配為45%的部分要去蓋社宅，但是這跟整塊營區地目變更去做社宅的量體就會差很多，我是希望中央能夠承擔起這個責任。我們知道社宅要蓋要讓地方接受，其實不是那麼容易的，其實地方是非常願意你們來蓋社宅的，結果你們居然因為電塔這個緣故而把它排除在外；包括我們一個文高用地，也是軍方的用地，當初也是有評估說要做公設解編，所以才會有一部分住宅區、部分的社福用地，也會蓋很多社會住宅啊！結果後來也是因為挖到廢棄物，所以現在就擱置了，這個地方也是沒有人反對啊！","我的感覺就是行政院、住都中心為了衝數量，就去挑容易做的，但是違背了我們當初蓋社宅所設立的一些前提──社宅必須要跟既有的生活圈緊密地連在一起，否則它可能會被標籤化，當初是有這樣的初衷，結果為了衝這個數量，就找一塊地把它蓋一蓋，然後真的地方想蓋的，你們不蓋，這個部分我不曉得部長或院長能否在這邊承諾，針對我們汐止的社宅，你們有沒有辦法再做一個通盤性的檢討，以符合地方民眾期待的地點去蓋？地方以及我絕對不反對蓋社宅，而是反對在不恰當的地方去蓋社宅。"],["劉部長世芳：非常謝謝委員的關心！這表示我們在推動社會住宅的時候更審慎，也就是說，我們未來的社會住宅要朝著小造鎮，像你講的它周邊的生活環境，包括道路、交通等等能不能附合，而不是把它蓋在邊邊角角，結果沒有人要去，這是第一點。"],["廖委員先翔：是，謝謝部長！"],["劉部長世芳：第二個，我們很希望，因為新北市是一個直轄市，他們如果能夠提供土地，或者是未來有國公營事業能夠提供土地的話，我們願意再來做審慎地評估；那您講的那三塊土地確實現在要蓋，像你非常瞭解都市計畫要做公設解編，或者是說原來的軍方預定地下面有有害事業廢棄物的話，你要把它全部清除完畢，除非原來的這個土地管理人願意這樣做……"],["廖委員先翔：已經在做了。"],["劉部長世芳：否則按照都市重劃，我們不可能用都市重劃的錢去把那個廢棄物處理掉，所以所有的過程當中，就表示我們非常審慎地在選擇以汐止地區為主的社會住宅，如果委員能夠提供我們這方面土地的使用，沒有任何其他的問題，或者它是乾淨的素地的話，然後不要再做任何的土地變更，很快可以把社會住宅蓋出來，我想我們內政部或者是我們的住都中心都會願意來協助。"],["廖委員先翔：可以啊！其實不要走解編也可以啊，直接變更為社福用地，也不用做……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，都市計畫要按照都市計畫的程序，很抱歉！我沒有辦法……"],["廖委員先翔：現在我只是把問題拋出來，我也沒有說一定要你們在這邊承諾什麼，而是會後院長能夠重視社宅，我們政府把錢花下去了，如果反而沒有達到我們的預期，到時候它變成一個鬼城，地方的民眾不支持，然後民眾支持的地方你不蓋，你不覺得花這個錢很沒有意義嗎？好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，都還沒有蓋、都還沒有蓋啊！"],["廖委員先翔：雖然還沒有蓋，但是已經核定了，我是希望我們會後再做一些……"],["劉部長世芳：所以不會是鬼城，我們會更審慎評估，朝著小造鎮的方式來進行……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒錯，我是希望能夠更審慎地來評估，搞不好我們可以有其他……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，如果說是白匏湖這個地方，那是不是也是有北二高交流道，有一個自然公園，它可以跟未來捷運有一個連通的空橋，這個就是剛剛……"],["廖委員先翔：那邊買個鹹酥雞走出去還要30分鐘，誰要去住那裡……"],["卓院長榮泰：小造鎮的方式，而不是讓它在一個荒郊野外，絕對不是這個概念。"],["廖委員先翔：買個鹹酥雞沒地方買，我都不去住了。"],["卓院長榮泰：把周遭的交通、環境條件給它做好，才會形成一個新興的……"],["廖委員先翔：很糟啦、也很糟啦！這很糟，我現在沒辦法跟你們講很細啦，那確實會造成地方交通很大的困擾，所以我希望能夠再多做一些討論，好不好？會後再麻煩內政部主動跟我辦公室做一些聯絡，我們再做一些詳細的討論，可不可以？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝！社宅的問題就到這邊。","下一個議題也是我最重視的一個議題──軌道運輸。有關基隆南港間通勤軌道建設計畫綜合規劃，我在上一次總質詢也有請教陳建仁前院長，不過我在跟他討論的過程中發現他可能要卸任，也不是很瞭解這個案子，反正吵吵鬧鬧就結束了。我想能夠當一個民意代表，能夠當行政院長，在人生的過程當中都是非常難得的一個機會，我們都希望我們所做的事情對後代是好的，也希望回頭看我們所做的事情，沒有因為當初草草了事而造成建設不是那麼完善。我必須說如果有基隆捷運對地方絕對是好的，我們現在要討論的是，我們可以把它做得更好。有基隆捷運我一定是很感謝中央願意投入資源到地方，但是我現在要思考的是，如果在規劃方面能夠做得更好，對地方能不能有更好的一些幫助？板南線延伸也是蔡總統當初選舉的承諾，當然也過了啦！也不一定要賴總統把它承擔下來。","這個圖院長看一下，上面是現在的方案，原則上會有三條捷運線，最上面淺藍色的現在是汐東線──過去說的民生線，你當過臺北市議員，應該非常清楚；中間綠色就是俗稱的基隆捷運，下面就是板南線。這個是現在的方案，可能路線非常的交錯，而且要轉乘。最下面這一張圖是目前地方上建議的方案，就是板南線延伸到樟樹灣，讓基隆捷運跟汐東線以及民生線能夠串接。很簡單，我沒有要討論太細，請問院長，上面的圖跟下面的圖，你們覺得哪一個比較簡單，比較不會造成轉乘的困擾，或者是哪一個會讓大眾運輸的效率比較高？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員垂詢的如果是板南線延伸，現在主責單位是臺北市政府捷運工程局，它必須就……"],["廖委員先翔：院長，我必須跟你報告一下，當初這個計畫是基隆南港間通勤軌道建設計畫綜合規劃，所以整個路廊當初應該是行政院主責規劃的。"],["卓院長榮泰：未來施工是臺北市政府。"],["廖委員先翔：對，施工當然是他們，但是報告的時候是你們做的，怎麼可以討論到板南線的時候就把它推到臺北市政府？抱歉，這樣我就覺得沒有必要再問下去，好像會跟之前問陳建仁前院長一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：應該還有一些其他的問題。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，現在基隆捷運已經核定綜合規劃，進入比較細的設計階段，而且其中有一段跟汐東線共構，這個已經在發包的階段，現在如果……"],["廖委員先翔：所以部長也沒有很瞭解我的訴求。"],["李部長孟諺：要重啟……"],["廖委員先翔：共構的部分我完全沒有要動到，我的訴求是板南線延伸到樟樹灣，共構的地方是樟樹灣到汐科，完全沒有衝突。"],["李部長孟諺：另外，以延伸線來講，板南線如果要延伸到樟樹灣這一段，通常不會是原軌延伸，因為它的運量不足，一定不會是高運量的延伸，會變成輕運量，一定還是會有接駁等等的問題，所以……"],["廖委員先翔：為什麼不能原軌延伸？往土城那邊就是原軌延伸。"],["李部長孟諺：運量根本沒有效益。"],["廖委員先翔：運量沒有效益是因為沒通。"],["李部長孟諺：如果沒有基隆……"],["廖委員先翔：每天有多少人搭臺鐵來臺北，每天公車有多少人擠得跟沙丁魚一樣，你跟我說汐止人搭公共運輸沒有運量？"],["李部長孟諺：如果只有延伸到樟樹灣，不是延伸到基隆，沒有基隆的人口一起支撐它的運量，單單靠汐止的運量沒有辦法以高運量……"],["廖委員先翔：他一樣在樟樹灣轉乘，基隆的民眾到臺北市沒差，一樣都是轉乘一次，只是在樟樹灣轉乘或南港轉乘。"],["李部長孟諺：我覺得這樣子可能會讓汐東線整個都耽誤下來。"],["廖委員先翔：汐東線完全沒差，基隆線……"],["李部長孟諺：因為現階段汐東線的發包……"],["廖委員先翔：部長，我今天會問這個你一定知道，你又跟我扯汐東線，這個案子跟汐東線完全沒有關係，汐東線做汐東線的。"],["李部長孟諺：我也建議你要先跟新北市政府捷運局……"],["廖委員先翔：可以啊！我在當議員時也都有問，不管政黨，當然現在是侯友宜當市長，他不支持我一樣可以批評他。但是我現在是立法委員，我現在在這邊就是質詢院長跟部長，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告……"],["廖委員先翔：今天院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：今年3月臺北市政府有一個函，它說這個路段因為涉及土地徵收、民宅拆除以及大同路的路幅小，還有機廠空間不足跟財務效益不足的問題，它傾向不再啟動。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：它現在的意思是這樣……"],["廖委員先翔：當初是林佳龍部長跟三市市長討論出來的東西……"],["卓院長榮泰：可以再溝通……"],["廖委員先翔：地方政府怎麼可以推翻當初部長跟大家討論的東西，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺北市政府的函。"],["廖委員先翔：我知道，那就是當初三個市長跟交通部長一起討論出來的方案，大家都不想做破壞當初這個方案的人，對不對？因為現在基隆捷運已經在路上，已經在規劃當中，這個我知道。所以我剛剛才跟院長說，我們退休了之後，再回頭來看，當初這個建設的規劃是對的嗎？我們有沒有機會在任內做一些改變，讓它可以成為一個真正的百年建設？我知道機會很低，所以我今天才又花了時間在這邊跟院長討論，我們有沒有機會在「基隆南港間通勤軌道建設計畫綜合規劃」裡面，再去詳細地修正一次評估報告、去重新評估板南線延伸的可行性，你們有沒有意願？"],["李部長孟諺：我想我們……"],["廖委員先翔：你只要講有沒有意願。沒有意願，我就不用再問下去了。"],["李部長孟諺：我們是覺得現在再重啟規劃，包括基隆捷運跟汐東線的整個時程會耽擱下來。我想我們是不是安排一個時間跟您報告相關的細節？"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，我看你們是不太願意啦！好，沒關係啦！我是真的希望我們將來退休之後，回頭來看一下我們當初所作的每個決策，這個決策不是院長做的決策、不是部長做的決策，而是上一任政府做的決策，但我們有沒有、我們願不願意去修正而讓它變得更好？我們的初衷就是這樣子。"],["李部長孟諺：我瞭解委員的用心。"],["廖委員先翔：再下一個，這個可能就比較政治性了，最近國會改革的問題。民進黨的「ChatDPP」說國會改革符合程序正義，那院長為什麼在我們立法院送過去之後，你們要提覆議？你們是覺得ChatDPP講的話不對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是希望人工智慧是用比較正確的資訊，它或許有一些誤差，但是黨的主張應該由黨的發言系統來對外宣布比較對。"],["廖委員先翔：所以ChatDPP造謠嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是造謠，它有的資訊是不是挺完整的，但是黨的主張……"],["廖委員先翔：他說「國會改革法案符合程序正義，有完整、合法的法案審議程序」，可是行政院的覆議文件上面是寫沒有啊！那一定有一個是對的、一個是錯的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說……"],["廖委員先翔：看行政院對還是DPP對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：黨的主張要由黨的發言系統來對外表示，才是最值得信賴的。"],["廖委員先翔：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在我們休息10分鐘。","休息（16時7分）","繼續開會（16時17分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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xt":"﹚廖先翔"},{"start":356.167,"end":356.487,"text":"院長下一個議題就是"},{"start":378.209,"end":396.049,"text":"這個巴黎奧運要到了嘛對不對?是。您應該知道嘛。好那PowerPoint到下一頁。想請問一下在院長的眼中我們的國球是什麼?棒球一直是我們的國球但是我們的桌球近年來也是好手進出那在羽毛球甚至網球"},{"start":399.479,"end":413.744,"text":"每種球類都很好我們都要鼓勵啦但是跟院長報告其實我們台灣的國球應該是贏球啦贏球只有贏球的那一個體育項目才會受到國家高度的關注只有贏球那我想說的是"},{"start":414.844,"end":440.322,"text":"其實不管是任何的比賽或者是我們在發展全民體育的時候我們一個角度不應該是說我們只看到那個第一名的在所有在過程中有努力的每一個人有得到成績的人應該都是需要受到我們的關注那可能也涉及到我們國人這個運動風氣的一個問題如果說我們什麼東西都是只關注到第一名的話只給他最豐厚的獎勵的話"},{"start":442.003,"end":464.678,"text":"那可能大家來從事運動的風氣就會可能比較差一點那我們現在先要跟院長討論一下獎金的問題啦下一頁現在讓院長看一下我們這個整理了一些資料啦那奧運冠軍從民國91年一次領1000萬到93年提升到1200萬月領75000塊那現在的金額跟月領的金額不曉得院長知不知道"},{"start":472.27,"end":474.192,"text":"為什麼教育部長不上來救援你一下?"},{"start":490.202,"end":503.592,"text":"沒關係,這個東西其實是比較細的啦,這東西比較細一點。那我也沒有說一定要院長能夠答得出來,只讓院長知道一下這個背景的數字。我們給院長看一下我們現在的獎金大概是多少。"},{"start":504.537,"end":525.536,"text":"一次領是兩千萬那月領是十二萬五千那其實金額已經不低了金額不低了那也都有一些顯著性的成長那這個大概是應該是一百零四年一百零四年已經十年沒有調整了那我認為金牌這個獎金其實是沒有大家不會說很低啊但多多益善能夠願意提高當然是很好的那我們來看一下銀牌"},{"start":527.557,"end":556.989,"text":"我們來看一下銀牌一樣從500萬提升到600萬那個是9393年的那依照剛剛一千萬變成兩千萬那我們從亞運的五百萬一開始五百萬到現在你猜我們亞運有沒有一樣比例的成長獎金你知道現在獎金是多少嗎?應該有成長有成長一定有成長冠軍大概從一千萬變兩千萬那亞軍銀牌的部分您猜一下"},{"start":560.646,"end":570.051,"text":"跟部長報告跟院長報告我們現在的亞運是從500萬調到了700萬那月領是38000元那這個東西從民國94年就沒有調整過了其實競牌我們剛剛看到103年104年有調整過了那亞運銀牌已經已經20年沒有調整了那銅牌也是類似的情況那下一張"},{"start":589.636,"end":597.884,"text":"我們亞運的銅牌基金就是從400萬嘛那現在調再猜一下現在金額大概多少?500"},{"start":600.218,"end":600.819,"text":"我們下一張整理的表"},{"start":628.556,"end":643.479,"text":"好那這樣就比較清楚了我們確實從民國91年到113年在金牌的部分翻倍了我們當然是肯定當然多多益善12萬5那銀牌跟銅牌金牌是翻了100%銀牌只翻了40%500萬多了200萬那銅牌只翻了25%400萬變500萬"},{"start":651.201,"end":668.652,"text":"那這個是一次領的那月領的部分喔其實差距就更大了我們從91年到113年已經這個政府已經是不一樣了我們已經有大小眼了結果我們月領的部分喔我們看到金牌月領12萬5他大概是2000萬的0.62%"},{"start":671.314,"end":677.161,"text":"銀牌3.8萬是700萬的0.54%銅牌24000元是500萬的0.48%我們一樣都是從一次性的獎金變成月領的獎金結果這個比例怎麼會是不一樣的這個有辦法做一些解釋嗎?"},{"start":690.652,"end":711.353,"text":"這個結構性的問題其實我不太了解你說一次性的獎金調整不一樣你說你只獎勵第一名沒有關係第一名當然不鼓勵我們希望選幾條那怎麼會連月領的這個部分所佔總獎金就一次領的比例也會不一樣有辦法解釋嗎還是說院長認為這有調整的空間與必要"},{"start":714.795,"end":732.98,"text":"我覺得這個是希望他能夠在比較長的時間對自己的生活或是其他方面有一個比較穩定的這個獎金的分配,所以是不是鼓勵他往這個方向去。對,領月領沒有問題,我的問題我可能講的不是很清楚。金牌月領12萬5000元,它只是2000萬的0.62%那照理來說我們銀牌要給選手的月領的獎金應該也是700萬的0.62%"},{"start":742.796,"end":768.809,"text":"金牌的比例是0.62%銀牌卻只有0.54%這個東西不合理吧?有了解我的意思嗎?還是部長要補充說明一下?謝謝委員的提醒我想如果按照那個比例他確實這個銀牌跟銅牌是確實是一個列為這個低了一點如果按照金牌的一個比例當然我們在過去"},{"start":769.189,"end":782.313,"text":"好,我們的代表團已經是這兩個月的事情了,那就希望說我們能夠在他們出發前來做一個檢討,讓他來做一個至少比例上面要一樣,然後金額看看能不能調整,在我們的選手出國前給他們一個鼓勵跟打氣好不好?"},{"start":799.873,"end":824.399,"text":"謝謝院長。那補充一下,趴運也一樣,這個趴運我就沒有直接想了,趴運的部分。我們其實重視奧運,那其實趴運的討論度比較差。那關於身心障礙的朋友,我也希望我們能夠多下一些關注,一併來檢視。那另外,選手的商務艙這件事情都確定了嗎?每一位出國代表我們中華民國去參加奧運的,每一位選手的商務艙都訂好了嗎?"},{"start":825.826,"end":847.852,"text":"我們之前有開過一次的內部的會議,我要求說選手們怎麼去怎麼回,怎麼吃怎麼住,我們要非常細心的來照顧他。商務艙這個東西應該是潘部長之前就是一樣在今年在這邊承諾過,我不曉得你們認不認他這個承諾,每一個選手出去一定都是商務艙。"},{"start":849.144,"end":857.827,"text":"我們做得到嗎?我們會優先這樣想,但是有時候配合班次、航班、飛機的設計選手聽了會有點失望啦有的人出去商務艙,有的人經濟艙,哪個項目經濟艙能這樣比嗎?"},{"start":869.966,"end":872.548,"text":"接下來下一個議題,先請問一下,部長可以先請回"},{"start":898.937,"end":906.585,"text":"請教一下院長我們的這個監獄啊原則上如果說我們要先做一個監獄的話你大概我們會選擇有哪些條件的情況下我們會來做監獄"},{"start":908.328,"end":908.348,"text":"對,好。"},{"start":937.213,"end":959.893,"text":"那接下來我就是要問社宅問題啦那原則上我們賴總統有在去年選舉的時候宣布嘛就是百萬嘛百萬社宅那扣掉50萬租金補貼大概就剩50萬嘛50萬之後再扣掉再包租貸款25萬那原則上社宅就是25萬那這個賴總統之前是13萬所以25扣掉15大概就是"},{"start":962.022,"end":962.902,"text":"目前我們的目的"},{"start":988.359,"end":988.74,"text":"八年內蓋完"},{"start":993.552,"end":1018.649,"text":"我們現在目前的目標8年內但是你說8年內蓋完我覺得這樣太誇張但是我們一定朝這個目標前進8年內是個很長的時間希望8年內能蓋完好OK那我們當然是支持社會住宅那只是說地點就是我剛剛一開始為什麼問建議這個地點這個地點在之前這個也是立法院之前上一屆有人在做討論"},{"start":1022.289,"end":1042.057,"text":"那時候時任的邱委員有問說社會住宅是不是貧民窟那現在的話董事長說不可能是貧民窟嘛我們要興建社會住宅一定是選擇在交通比較便捷發展已經相對成熟的地方而不會特別蓋到郊區或一些比較特別的地方那這個論述跟剛剛院長講的差不多"},{"start":1042.577,"end":1042.757,"text":"﹚廖先翔"},{"start":1059.603,"end":1083.14,"text":"行政院合定的大概只有一處,就是在我們的白爬湖,就是右下角。我們右下角這個可能顏色比較淡一點,有一個圓圈圈,上面就是我們市區,然後這個一條路的那個就是高速公路嘛。然後下面這邊原本是我們的監獄預定地。我們會蓋監獄的地方就如同剛剛院長講的,可能離人間比較,會有點距離,跟這個"},{"start":1084.81,"end":1085.291,"text":"﹚廖先翔"},{"start":1095.945,"end":1117.904,"text":"那我就有很大疑問啦,我們就好像就是為了去衝這個數量,所以就是隨便去找了一些地,就違背了剛剛院長講的話,違背了當初花次長在我們立院所做的答詢,直接蓋在一個荒郊野外,地大嘛,隨便我們蓋嘛,然後就蓋了很多戶,反而是我們地方民眾希望蓋的地方,"},{"start":1118.684,"end":1133.976,"text":"包括我們汐止有兩處啊,你們不一定知道在哪裡。一個是我們的一個保藏坑的營區,國防部的土地目前正在做變更。結果我們住租中心居然說因為裡面有一座電塔,它是一個零幣設施,所以他們不太想蓋。"},{"start":1135.216,"end":1151.925,"text":"好,一個電塔,你電塔可以下地板,這個你也是行政院的,台電也是行政院的東西啊,這都是中央政府的事情嘛。結果搞到現在,要做這個公社解編,那地方政府拿他們分配回45%的部分去做這個社宅要去蓋。"},{"start":1152.805,"end":1172.243,"text":"但是這個就跟我們如果說整塊營區去做設宅變更的地木變更做設宅的量體就會差很多了。我是希望我們中央能夠承擔起這個責任。因為地方我知道設宅要蓋要讓地方接受其實不是那麼容易的。其實地方是非常願意我們來蓋設宅的結果我們居然因為電塔這個緣故"},{"start":1174.085,"end":1174.505,"text":"﹖廖先翔﹖"},{"start":1195.851,"end":1195.871,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":1226.472,"end":1241.047,"text":"針對我們汐止的這個社宅我們有沒有辦法再做一個通盤性的檢討那以符合地方民眾期待的地點去蓋地方以及我絕對不反對蓋社宅而是我們反對在不恰當的地方去蓋社宅"},{"start":1242.15,"end":1259.987,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心,這表示說我們在推動這個社會住宅的時候更審慎,也就是說我們未來的社會住宅要朝著小造正,像你講的,它周邊的生活環境,包括道路交通等等能不能復合,而不是把它蓋在邊邊角角結果沒有人要去,這是第一點。"},{"start":1260.587,"end":1284.764,"text":"那第二個呢我們很希望因為新北市呢是一個我們的直轄市那他們如果能夠提供土地或者是未來啊有這個國工營事業能夠提供土地的話我們願意再來做審慎的評估那您講的那三塊土地確實現在要蓋像你非常了解這個都市計畫要做公社解編或者是說原來的軍方預定地下面有這個有害事業廢棄物的話你要把它全部清除完畢啊"},{"start":1285.384,"end":1312.282,"text":"除非說原來的這個土地管理人願意這樣做,或者按照都市重劃的話,我們不可能用都市重劃的錢去把那個廢棄物處理掉。所以所有的過程當中是表示我們非常審慎的在選擇以汐止地區為主的社會住宅。那如果說委員能夠提供我們這方面的土地的使用,沒有任何其他問題,或是說它是個乾淨的樹地的話,然後不要再做任何的土地變更,那很快可以把社會住宅蓋出來。"},{"start":1312.822,"end":1336.944,"text":"那我想我們內政部或者是我們的住住中心都願意來全力協助。對啊,其實不要走解編也可以啊,直接變個位式服用點也不用做回饋啊。沒有,都市計畫要按照都市計畫的程序,很抱歉沒有辦法…好不好,我今天現在我直接把問題拋出來,我也沒有說一定要你們在這邊承諾什麼,我是希望會後,院長能夠重視這個社宅。我們政府把錢花下去了,政府把錢花下去了,如果說反而沒有"},{"start":1337.805,"end":1341.086,"text":"如果說是白袍湖這個地方它是不是也是有北二高的交流道有一個自然公園它一個未來的捷運也一個連通的公角"},{"start":1367.797,"end":1372.341,"text":"所以我希望能夠再做多一些討論好不好會後再麻煩內政部主動跟我的辦公室做一些聯絡我們再做一些詳細的討論可不可以"},{"start":1396.035,"end":1400.87,"text":"好,謝謝。好,涉財問題就到這邊。好,那下一個議題也是我最重視的一個議題啦,軌道運輸。這個東西喔,"},{"start":1405.765,"end":1407.766,"text":"基隆南港間通勤軌道建設計畫中的規劃"},{"start":1435.981,"end":1436.461,"text":"當初本來線的延伸也是蔡總統"},{"start":1463.553,"end":1486.273,"text":"當初在選舉的承諾當然也過了我沒有要也不一定說一定要賴總統把它承擔下來好不好下一張好那這個是這個圖院長前面看一下上面是現在的方案它原則上會有三條捷運線最上面的淺藍色的是這個所謂的民生線現在是西東線那就是過去說的民生線您當過台北市議員應該是非常清楚"},{"start":1486.914,"end":1507.582,"text":"那綠色的就是俗稱的基隆捷運,中間綠色的捷運,最下面就是阪南縣那現在這個是現在的方案,它可能路線非常的交錯而且要轉層那最下面的這張圖是我們目前地方上建議的案件就是我們的阪南縣能夠做一個延伸到張素安讓基隆捷運跟這個西隆縣以及民生縣能夠做一個串接"},{"start":1508.78,"end":1510.741,"text":"委員垂詢的如果是這個阪南縣的延伸那現在這個組織單位是臺北市政府捷運工程局"},{"start":1531.203,"end":1554.855,"text":"院長我必須跟您報告一下當初這個計畫是基隆南港監通請軌道建設計畫綜合規劃所以這個整個路廊應該都當初是我們行政院在做主宰在做規劃的施工當然是那個當然是那個但是我們報告的時候是我們做的怎麼可以說在討論到板南縣的時候就把他拖到台北市政府那我覺得就會抱歉啦我覺得覺得我沒有必要再問下去好像會跟之前問陳建仁院長一樣"},{"start":1556.001,"end":1562.524,"text":"對,所以部長你也沒有很了解我的訴求啊。供購的部分我完全沒有要動到啊。我的訴求是,本來線也伸到張書安啊。我們供購的地方是張書安到矽科啊。完全沒有衝突啊。"},{"start":1585.714,"end":1606.273,"text":"那另外就是說以延伸線來講,板南線如果要延伸到張樹灣這一段,通常不會是圓軌延伸,一定是會因為它的運量不足,一定不會是高運量的延伸,會變成是一個輕運量,那一定還是會有接駁等等的問題。為什麼不能圓軌延伸,往普城那邊就有圓軌延伸?那個運量根本沒有效益。"},{"start":1610.077,"end":1633.562,"text":"我們每天台鐵多少人來台北每天公車多少人擠得跟沙丁魚一樣你跟我說矽脂人大公共運輸沒有運量你如果只有延伸到張樹灣不是延伸到基隆沒有把基隆的人口一起來支撐他的運量單單靠矽脂的運量是沒有辦法高運量他一樣在張樹灣做轉成啊基隆民眾到台北是沒差一樣都是轉成一次只是在張樹灣轉成或是哪當轉成你會讓矽東縣整個都耽誤下來"},{"start":1639.202,"end":1664.393,"text":"因為現階段西東縣的我今天一定要問這個我今天會問這個你一定知道嘛你今天又跟我扯西東縣這個案子跟西東縣完全沒有關係西東縣做西東縣的那我也建議你要先跟新北市市政府捷運局先可以啊我在當議員的時候也都有問啊誰不管政黨當然現在是回圍當市長嘛他不支持我一樣我一樣是可以批評他但是我現在是立法委員我現在在這邊我就是執行院長跟部長嘛"},{"start":1666.414,"end":1690.455,"text":"對,所以說今天是3月,臺北市政府有一個函,他說這個路段因為涉及土地徵收、民宅的拆除以及大同路的路幅小,還有機場空間不足跟財務效益不足,他是傾向不再啟動。他現在的意思是這樣,當初是林佳龍部長跟三、四市長討論出來的東西嘛,你一個地方政府怎麼可以推翻一個當初部長大家討論的東西?"},{"start":1692.177,"end":1709.557,"text":"台北市政府的案例。我知道啊,那就是當初是三個市長跟交通部長一起討論出來的方案嘛。大家都不想去做破壞當初這個方案的人嘛。因為現在基隆捷運已經在路上了嘛,已經在規劃當中了,這我知道。所以我剛才跟院長說,我們退休了之後,再回頭來看,"},{"start":1711.69,"end":1740.461,"text":"當初這個建設的規劃是對的嗎?我們有沒有機會在任內去做一些改變讓它可以成為真正一個百年的建設所以我今天我知道機會很低所以我今天才又花了時間在這邊跟院長做討論我們有沒有機會在我們的這個報告名稱叫做基隆南港間通勤軌道建設計畫綜合規劃的理念再去詳細的去修正一次評估報告去重新評估板南線延伸的可行性你們有沒有意願?"},{"start":1743.084,"end":1756.851,"text":"您只要講有沒有意願,沒有意願我就不用再問下去了我們是覺得現在再重啟規劃整個時程包括基隆捷運跟西東線整個時程會耽擱下來那我想我們是不是安排一個時間跟您報告相關的細節"},{"start":1757.898,"end":1777.078,"text":"好,好沒關係,看來你們是不太願意啦。好沒關係,我是真的希望我們以後退休之後回首來看一下我們當初所做的每一個決策。這個決策不是院長做的決策,不是部長做的決策。我是上一任政府做的決策,但我們有沒有,我們願不願意去修正讓它變得更好。我們的初衷就是這樣。好,那再下一個。"},{"start":1777.859,"end":1780.141,"text":"我們還是希望這個人工智慧是用比較正確的資訊他或許有一些誤差但是"},{"start":1805.977,"end":1828.612,"text":"黨的主張應該有黨的發言系統來對外撿佈比較對。確的DPP造謠嗎?不是造謠,它有的資訊不是挺完整的,但是黨的主張應該...他說國會改革法案符合程序正義有完整合法的法案審議程序啊,可是我們行政院的文件上面寫沒有啊,那一定有一個是對的一個是錯的嘛。"},{"start":1837.449,"end":1838.815,"text":"謝謝廖先翔委員質詢。謝謝主委長的備詢。報告委員會現在我們休息10分鐘。"}]}},{"id":"154046","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154046","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c0185d0aaa11f34e3acd65b353bd3059915546051f742c4eddec539c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"15:19:40 - 15:36:20","影片長度":"00:16:40","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T15:19:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T15:36:20+08:00","duration":1000,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（15時19分）謝謝主席，我們請行政院卓院長，還有法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：再請卓院長、鄭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：院長好。現在行政院已經針對國會擴權法案提請覆議了，然後立法院會在下個禮拜五進行表決，但是我可以預期，雖然早上院長說你滿樂觀的，但我沒有這麼樂觀，因為我認為現在在藍白還是非常執迷不悟，而且暫時沒有悔改可能的情況下，下個禮拜的表決結果還是非常有可能被否決，我的認為是這樣子啦！","其實近一個月我接到非常多民眾的陳情，他們都表達出極度的擔憂跟焦慮，他們在焦慮什麼呢？因為最近我把所有我們可行的方案都告訴了民眾，也說我們一定會窮盡一切可能並努力到最後一刻，守護我們的憲政體制，守護我們民主的權益，但是民眾還是很擔心，他們覺得現在我們好像是手無寸鐵，該怎麼辦呢？尤其是接下來，即便我們民進黨團提了釋憲，但是在憲法法庭宣判之前，或是大法官核可暫時處分之前，是不是會有一個落地的空窗期呢？我不知道行政院現在針對這件事情，有沒有做好最壞的打算？什麼叫做最壞的打算呢？","我先講一下，其實這段時間以來，已經有上百位法律學者以及300位以上的律師都站出來說，這部法律就是侵害人民的基本權益；也有非常多的外媒已經直接警示，甚至直接說這部法律就是臺灣立法院的過度擴權，而且也說這部法案的內容是親中的，是在削弱總統的權力；甚至也有日媒直接說，國民黨就是中國的特洛伊木馬，當然這個都是外媒的解讀。","我要問的是，假設下禮拜真的覆議失敗了，然後我們提覆議了，我不知道行政院這邊有沒有打算也提釋憲？因為其實行政院也是可以提釋憲的，站在行政權的角度，你們持什麼理由，用你們憲政機關的高度來論述這一部擴權法案現在對於行政體系的衝擊呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我想委員跟我都很清楚目前國會的生態，我早上說我持比較樂觀的態度，是因為我必須這樣，才能夠在這個禮拜花一些時間去處理其他重要的公務，我如果每天很悲觀的在這個情境裡面，大概很多事情都是無法進行的……"],["黃委員捷：吃不下飯、睡不著覺……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我必須要抱持這樣的心情，但是我也相信，如果有經過公開、合理而且非常理性的討論，這個案子不一定完全是不可能的，因為我相信委員都還是有正義感在身的，他們還是會發揮出來的，所以是不是有可能，大家共同來努力。當然身為一個憲政機關，我們依照憲政秩序的設計提出覆議，這個是我們的責任，但除了憲政機關這個角色之外，我覺得因為這個職權行使法並不是單純就立法委員內部的職權行使，它牽扯到人民、法人、部隊以及政府官員……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯！"],["卓院長榮泰：只要牽扯到人民權益有可能受損，行政機關一定要有責任來保護人民的權益，所以我們在這個立場上，也必須、也可以提出這樣的覆議。但是覆議的結果如果不是朝我樂觀想像當中的話，未來呈現另外一種結果出現，那憲政秩序上、憲政設計上，還是有再下去的救濟方式，我想我們還是跟委員剛剛所說的，我們會窮盡一切的可能來維護憲政機關，維護院際的分立，維護人民的權益。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝院長，在這邊幫院長加油一下啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，一起加油！"],["黃委員捷：這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔！其實這段時間民眾也一直在跟我說，他真的好擔心喔！怎麼辦，接下來人民會不會被調查啊！因為這一部法律擴權下去，真的是有可能調查人民的，包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕；甚至他要請律師，還要經過主席同意；然後他沒有提供資料，或是被認為是虛偽陳述，都有可能被立法院罰錢，甚至是按次處罰；刑法的部分就更不用說了，關於藐視國會罪，我不知道現在所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都在瑟瑟發抖，擔心自己說錯話就犯了藐視國會罪，就要被關或是有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑，甚至是二十萬的罰金。當然，大家都很擔心被這部法律影響，可是起草這部法律的委員說，百分之九十九點九的人都不會受到影響，請大家不用過度恐慌，也說沒有犯法就沒事了，請問院長，你同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我必須接住每一個人。"],["黃委員捷：是的，我必須說在人權保障上，並不是用百分比來看待的，對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員捷：只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害，這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障，每一個人都應該要被接住，怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢？再來請教法務部長，您是檢察官出身的，對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員捷：部長，請教一下，這部三讀通過的法律讓立委可以調閱司法或監察機關的文件副本，請問您怎麼看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要參酌釋字585解釋來做處理。依據釋字585號解釋，當然立法院有調卷的權力，但也必須要跟立法院立法委員的固有職權有重大關聯，在這個限制下才能調閱，這在585號解釋已經講得非常清楚。至於這一次立法院職權行使法應該有逸脫原來585號……"],["黃委員捷：請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查中的案件是不能被調閱的。"],["黃委員捷：所以這部法律對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想應該會有影響，因為在偵查中的屬偵查不公開。依據刑事訴訟法規定，這部分是不能公開的，即使監察院來調卷，我們也都必須依照這個規定辦理。"],["黃委員捷：好，這就是我希望法務部接下來能堅守的立場。我講一句比較難聽的，現在國民黨有一些委員涉入一些案件，例如詐欺、圖利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等刑事案件。假設國會擴權法案下去，他們跟檢警說他們要調這些案件的進度，他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件資料，這會不會影響檢調的偵辦進度？在你們司法獨立審判這些案件的過程當中，會不會因輿論或串供或對偵查上造成影響？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不樂見這種情形的發生。"],["黃委員捷：所以我必須要說，這整部法律就是一個垃圾法案！它就是一個拼裝車，一團混亂，裡面沒有規範到任何立委對自己自律的要求，沒有任何利益迴避的規定，對你們在執行上真的會有非常大的問題。謝謝，請部長先回座，院長先留在這邊。","接著國會擴權法案後，我要講一下，現在中國對臺灣的各式各樣威脅其實是非常大的！我把近期、從1月到現在的各種威脅列出來，像軍機繞臺、軍事演習、軍事威脅、各種介選、網路攻擊，還有片面更改M 503航線，甚至中國海警強登金門觀光船，還發射火箭飛越我國上空，然後還派武官在捷克跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統的種種行為都在發生。謝謝主委直接上來了。","之所以要延續國會擴權法案來談，是因為擴權法案也有可能變成瓦解臺灣國防的破口，不知道國防部跟陸委會主委如何看待這部法律？有沒有評估過這部法律下去，對你們會不會有相關影響？例如現在要做潛艦國造，他們用國會調查權來調查弊案，然後請國防部提供潛艦聲紋資料，他們必須提供這些重大的機密資料，如果沒有提供就開罰，這種情況會不會發生呢？不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍？沒關係，先不用回答。我必須要講，這個法案下去確實有可能造成這樣的問題。","再來要請教院長，其實現在立法院裡躺了非常多的錢坑法案，就我所知、就你所知，光是花東三法就要2兆，還有許多委員提出了財劃法的修正，有可能要吃掉我們中央5,777億，我不知道你有沒有想過，接下來如果照這個版本通過財劃法的修正，將近6,000億減少之後，你們會受到什麼影響？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是中央政府在財政方面對地方的補助以及一些天災地變的因應，還有一些其他長期的或是每年都發生的或是單次發生的緊急事件，我們就失去了靈活運用的能力。其實5,777億之外的9,000億，包括統籌分配稅款、一般補助款跟計畫補助款，每年將近9,000億，那也是已經補助給地方為優先的，如果再把這個變成齊頭式的、水平式的分配的話，中央會失去這個能力，很多事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，尤其我是高雄的立委，高雄過去如果沒有中央這樣的靈活運用以及注重地方衡平性、注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話，其實我們地方還是非常可憐的，很多事情都做不了，大眾運輸也做不了，從中央育兒津貼、租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員捷：所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的，我希望你們要堅守這個立場，接下來各縣市大家一起來協商的時候，一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的、對的。"],["黃委員捷：這個拜託院長務必要堅守。我剛剛會提到現在有這麼多的錢坑法案，是因為中央的財政紀律要嚴守，所有的預算這邊開一點，那邊就要收一點，整個大水庫一定要非常嚴格的把關，是這樣對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的很多法案同時出現在國會裡面，同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央，如果這樣形成的話，就如剛剛所說的，中央對財政的應變能力就完全喪失了。齊頭式平等又沒有辦法要求每個縣市做同樣均衡臺灣共同一致目標的努力，大家的想法會不一樣，在這樣的過程中，我想對均衡發展這個工作來講，會產生很大很大的困難。"],["黃委員捷：好，我必須要說，現在立法院躺了非常多的財政惡法，為什麼說這些是惡法呢？因為這些法案都一再的說要提高預算，幫這邊加一點，幫那邊加一點，但完全沒有考慮財政的評估，是完全毀壞財政紀律的。例如昨天審查的反年改法案，就是好不容易我們把年金改了之後，我們省了大概2,800億，如果照他們的版本下去，這2,800億等於完全沒了嘛！再加上財劃法的近6,000億、花東三法的2兆，還有他們現在也要修老人福利法，65歲以上健保一律免費，大概也要花掉400億，這樣隨便林林總總加下來，這邊開一點，那邊開一點的，我們的大水庫、整個中央的財政馬上就垮掉了！我不知道我們中央對於現在立法院躺了這麼多的財政惡法有什麼因應？請院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，而且過去改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續發展跟生存，也為了兼顧軍人長用久任的原則，如果今天改回去，就變成走回頭路，過去改革的精神完全被破壞了，國家財政回復到改革之前的困難，這也不是大家所樂見的，所以我們會逐一去檢視現在法案中埋下對中央政府財政設計這樣的法案，我們認為它也違反相關法律，我們必須在大院或委員會裡面據理力爭、充分說明，希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政，這樣會比較健全。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個一定要拜託院裡所有的每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神，因為其實看得出來立法院有一群人真的正在掏空國家，不管是財政還是媒體上面，還是所有的防線，都不斷的在架空你們，我認為這個對於國家的影響非常的嚴重。","最後一點時間我要講一下，這個也是最近送進來我發現跟國家非常有關係的，就是兩岸監督條例，過去我們在太陽花時所主張的就是在進行兩岸政治協議之前都要有非常嚴格的把關機制，所以我們也在兩岸條例做了修法，在民進黨時期修正第五條之三，可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門，就是把經濟跟政治協議分開，甚至是降低門檻，我不知道行政部門有沒有做相關的因應？陸委會有沒有看到這個版本？你們現在對於兩岸條例第五條之三是不是會堅守目前的法案立場？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們在2018年通過兩岸條例第五條之三，就是堅持我們的民主憲政體制，不能因為政治議題來更改我們民主憲政體制跟主權地位，這個我們會堅守下去，請委員放心。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個要拜託，因為以目前民眾黨的版本修正下去，就是在放寬兩岸監督條例的底線，甚至是把四分之三出席、四分之三同意的門檻都降低了，無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間協議的底線，我認為是非常嚴重的，拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，一定會的，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第40號廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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、維護願績的分立、維護人民的權益。"},{"start":246.562,"end":261.664,"text":"好謝謝院長在這邊幫院長來加油一下啦這個對於行政體系的衝擊真的非常的大喔因為其實這段時間因為民眾也一直在跟我說他真的好擔心喔怎麼辦接下來人民會不會被調查啊因為他其實在這一部法律"},{"start":262.506,"end":278.684,"text":"擴傳下去真的是有可能調查人民的包括叫人民提供資料還不得拒絕甚至是他要請律師還要經過主席同意然後你沒有提供資料或是被認為是虛偽陳述都有可能被立法院要罰你錢啊甚至是按次要處罰"},{"start":279.665,"end":302.097,"text":"那這個刑法就更不用說了這個藐視國會罪我不知道現在的所有的官員坐在上面有沒有都瑟瑟發抖擔心自己說錯話就犯了這個藐視國會罪就要被關有可能被處一年以下的有期徒刑甚至是20萬的罰金那當然啦其實大家都很擔心被這部法律影響可是呢"},{"start":302.797,"end":308.04,"text":"我必須接觸每一個人是的我必須要說在人權的保障上並不是用百分比來看待對嗎?是的"},{"start":329.631,"end":358.961,"text":"只要有一個人受到侵害就是侵害這就是我們作為一個人權國家最基本的保障嘛每一個人都應該要被接住啊怎麼會說99.9%的人沒有受影響就沒事呢好那再來請教一下我們法務部長喔您是檢察官出身對嗎是好部長請教一下這部三讀通過的法律裡面讓立委可以來調閱司法或是監察機關的文件的副本請問您怎麼看"},{"start":360.595,"end":388.082,"text":"這部分還是要依據那個參佐那個釋字585號解釋的來做一個處理他那個585號解釋當然這個立法院有調卷的一個一個權利但是也必須要跟他立法院立法委員的固有的職權有重大的關聯這個這個限制才能夠做一個調卷那我想這個是在585號解釋已經講得非常的一個清楚了那至於立法院這一次的"},{"start":388.764,"end":417.63,"text":"此前的一個刑事法這部分應該有依託請問偵查中的案件可以被調閱嗎?偵查中的案件是不能夠被調閱的那所以這部法律下去對檢警體系會有什麼樣的影響?我想應該是會有影響因為他那個有些只有在在偵查中的這部分是偵查不公開就是依刑訴訟法這部分是不能公開的那我想這部分我們是"},{"start":419.371,"end":423.301,"text":"我想這個其實監察院的條件我們都是就是必須要依照這個一個規定的。"},{"start":424.824,"end":452.663,"text":"好這個就是我希望法務部接下來要堅守的立場因為我講一句比較難聽的啦因為其實我們現在國民黨啊有一些委員他們涉入一些案件例如說詐欺、土利、洩密、收受回饋、內線交易等等這些形式案件假設啦這個國會擴權法案下去他們跟我們現在監禁說他們要調這些案件的進度然後他們要去看這些偵辦中的案件的資料"},{"start":453.524,"end":470.241,"text":"那會不會影響我們檢調的偵辦的進度?會不會影響這一些案件在作為你們司法獨立審判的這個過程當中的一些輿論或者是串供或者是任何偵查上面的影響?"},{"start":475.356,"end":494.781,"text":"所以啦我必須要說現在這整部法律就是一台非常這我就一直說這是一個垃圾法案啦他就是一個拼裝車然後一團混亂因為裡面沒有規範到任何對立委自己的自律的要求沒有任何利益迴避的這些規定執行上對你們來說真的會有非常大的問題啊"},{"start":496.261,"end":513.29,"text":"好謝謝我們先請那個部長先回座那我們院長先留在這邊那接下來我請教一下因為接著這個國會擴權法案我講一下說現在其實中國對台灣的各種各式各樣的威脅是非常大的這個我我把近期其實從1月到現在"},{"start":515.091,"end":538.34,"text":"的這種威脅列出來喔像是現在軍事繞台軍機繞台軍事演習軍事威脅然後各種的借選跟網路攻擊還有片面的更改M503的航線甚至是中國的海警強登金門的觀光船還有發射火箭飛越我國上空等等然後甚至是還派了武官在捷克來跟蹤我們蕭美琴副總統"},{"start":539.48,"end":556.093,"text":"的這種行為都有在發生。好謝謝我們主委直接上來了。那我想要講一下就是說這個延續這個國會擴權法案來談是因為這個擴權法案裡面也有可能變成是瓦解台灣國防的破口。"},{"start":556.753,"end":570.185,"text":"我不知道我們國防部跟我們陸委會主委如何看待這部法律有沒有去評估過這部法律下去對你們會不會有相關的影響就例如說我們現在要做潛艦國造好了"},{"start":572.034,"end":599.715,"text":"那這個他們用國會調查權來調查弊案然後說國防部請你們提供淺見深聞的資料那我們這些重大的機密資料你必須要提供如果你們沒有提供就給你們開罰這種情況會不會發生呢我不知道你們有沒有在心裡先把最壞的打算想過一遍沒關係先不用回答那這個我必須要講說現在的這個法案下去確實是也有可能造成這樣的問題"},{"start":601.016,"end":621.885,"text":"那再來我要請教的是其實還是我們院長啦因為其實現在我們立法院裡面躺了非常多的乾坤法案就我所知就你所知這個光是花東的三法兩兆的花東三法還有已經許多委員提到的才化法的修正有可能要吃掉我們中央5777億"},{"start":625.427,"end":634.057,"text":"我不知道你有沒有想過接下來如果照這個版本通過財化法將近6千億少了之後你們會受到什麼影響?"},{"start":635.117,"end":652.616,"text":"就是中央政府在財政的對地方補助以及一些天災地變的因應跟一些其他的長期的或是或者是每年都發生的或是單次發生的一些緊急事件那我們在失去了靈活運用的能力其實5700之外的9000億包括"},{"start":657.519,"end":676.432,"text":"統籌分配稅款一般補助款跟計畫性補助款每年將近9000億那也是已經補助給地方為優先的所以如果再把這個變成一個齊頭式的水平式的分配的話那中央會失去這個能力很多的事情就沒有辦法在短時間內為地方做更多的努力"},{"start":677.213,"end":702.652,"text":"沒錯,尤其是我是高雄的立委啦,我們高雄過去也是如果沒有中央這樣子可以靈活運用以及注重地方橫平性注重城鄉發展這樣的精神的話其實我們地方還是非常可憐的喔,很多事情都做不了,大眾運輸也做不了然後這種從中央什麼育兒津貼租屋補助到社會住宅都做不了"},{"start":703.673,"end":726.951,"text":"所以中央統籌分配還是非常重要的我希望你們要堅守這個立場接下來在不管各縣市大家一起來協商的時候一定要注重城鄉發展跟地方的衡平好不好是的這個拜託要請院長堅守喔那我剛剛會提到這個現在有這麼多的乾坑法案是因為我們中央的財政紀律要嚴守"},{"start":728.012,"end":735.735,"text":"是的,我們不希望這些將中央財政削弱的這些很多的法案同時出現在國會裡面,那同時讓它變成一個立法來拘束中央。如果這樣的形成的話,剛剛說的中央這財政應變的能力就完全喪失了。"},{"start":756.624,"end":757.985,"text":"好必須要說現在立法院躺了非常多的財政的惡法為什麼說這些也是惡法呢因為"},{"start":777.294,"end":797.317,"text":"這些法案都一再的說他們要提高預算然後幫這邊加一點那邊加一點但是完全沒有考慮到財政的評估是完全毀壞了財政的紀律的就例如說現在昨天我們省的這個反年改啊就是好不容易我們把這個年改改了之後我們省了大概2800億"},{"start":798.798,"end":817.882,"text":"如果照他們的版本下去這2800億等於完全沒了嘛那再包括這個財化法的近6000億然後花東山法兩兆然後還有我們現在他們也要修老人福利法說65歲健保要免費然後大概也要花個400億這樣隨便叮叮總總加一點這邊開一點那邊開一點其實我們大水庫整個中央的財政馬上就垮掉了嘛"},{"start":823.903,"end":850.504,"text":"我不知道說我們現在中央對於現在立法院躺了這麼多的財政惡法,你們有什麼因應?請院長。而且過去改革的很多法案是為了國家的永續的發展跟生存,也為了讓軍人這個常任久用,常用久任的這個原則。所以如果今天改回去,那變成走回頭路。過去改革的精神完全被破壞了,那國家財政回復到改革之前的困難也不是大家所樂見的。"},{"start":851.485,"end":876.489,"text":"所以我們會逐一的來檢視現在在法案當中埋下對中央政府財政設計的這樣的法案。我們認為他也違反相關的法律。那我們必須在大院裡面或是在委員會裡面我們據理力爭充分的說明。我希望大家還是用中央地方充分合作的角度來看國家的財政會比較健全。"},{"start":876.854,"end":897.045,"text":"好 這個一定要拜託我們院裡所有每個部會都一定要堅守這個精神啦就是因為其實看得出來現在立法院有一群人真的就是在掏空國家不管是財政還是媒體上面還是所有的防線都不斷的在架空你們"},{"start":898.225,"end":924.662,"text":"那我認為這個對於國家的影響非常重、非常嚴重那最後一點時間我要講一下因為這個其實也是最近送進來我發現跟我們國家非常有關係的就是這個兩岸監督條例因為其實我們過去在太陽花在主張的就是說要來可以進行兩岸的政治協議之前都要有一個非常嚴格的把關機制所以我們也在兩岸條例裡面在民進黨時期把它收進去了就是五支三條可是現在民眾黨開了一個後門"},{"start":926.423,"end":927.704,"text":"就是把經濟跟政治協議分開"},{"start":959.636,"end":985.957,"text":"好 這個要拜託因為以目前民眾黨的版本下去就是在放寬我們兩岸監督條例的底線甚至是把四分之三出席四分之三同意這樣的門檻都降低了無疑就是在因應中共現在跟我們之間的協議的這個底線我認為是非常嚴重的拜託陸委會針對這件事情一定要做好把關"},{"start":988.823,"end":990.644,"text":"謝謝黃捷委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第40號廖先祥委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c0185d336fcfdb71eaef95b353bd3059915546051f742c4eddec589e2bfcd57ebc68f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"14:48:37 - 15:19:34","影片長度":"00:30:57","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T14:48:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T15:19:34+08:00","duration":1857,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":60,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（14時48分）主席好，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長好。我看見您的施政方針，第一頁我覺得滿感動的，您說：將秉持誠意溝通、人民優先，展現解決問題的誠意與決心，未來哪裡有困難，您和行政單位就會到哪裡去；哪裡有問題，我們就想辦法解決問題。當然，我看到是非常高興我們有這樣一個院長，希望接下來我們的對話，您能秉持一貫的態度來解決人民跟地方的問題。","我想請問一下院長，賴清德總統在選前講過，要把苗栗變成科技大縣，因此國發會也配合推動桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的推動方案，我們在簡報中看到，苗栗的水、電都是規劃要往新竹送，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想要問的是，我們苗栗整個產業園區擴編1,203公頃的計畫中，苗栗縣只有145.6公頃，大概只占了九分之一，我想請問院長，水、電都從苗栗送過去，那為什麼要捨近求遠呢？不提高在苗栗產業園區的面積呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：關於這個桃竹苗大矽谷的推動方案，這已經在跟地方政府協調當中，我們希望它能夠早日落實，具體在實現這個過程的部分，國發會有它目前的工程進度跟計畫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們今年3月就開始有提到這個，你們也到苗栗縣縣政府去，實際上我們竹南有300公頃，還有頭份330公頃，還有後龍的330公頃，總面積是960公頃，我想請問一下目前的進度，這些會列入這個計畫裡面嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告一下，有兩個點，第一個，現在這個是在明年的預算，所以我們還在院的審議當中，第二個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以苗栗有沒有機會？剛剛我講的這些有沒有辦法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二點我補充說明一下，在這個計畫裡面，對於土地的使用，我們當時有一個原則是滾動式的調整，在整個運作過程中，如果我們要增加苗栗的土地的話，當時在整個計畫裡面是可以透過滾動式調整而增加。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得是這樣啦！因為這是非常重要的一個計畫，如果可以的話，該有的土地我們儘量先把它……既然縣府都有提報了，是不是可以就把它規劃進去？以後要用也比較方便，不然到時候又要重新跑一遍，這樣不是更麻煩？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，這個我們可以來研議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那請院長協助，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我們談到產業園區的部分，包含了土地變更的需求，產業儲備用地要納入計畫裡，才能按照國土的功能區分調整為城鄉發展區第二類之三及都市計畫農業區辦理變更為產業園區，這些都需要時間，也需要中央跟地方配合，才能創造雙贏，像這些沒有劃進去的話，以後後續變更就會非常的麻煩。","近期國土計畫很多縣市出現了很多的聲音，我也接到很多陳情，尤其對於農業縣來說，影響最大，這個不分黨派，我想很多民進黨的委員也一直為地方來發聲，尤其在苗栗縣，苗栗縣有水庫，本來開發就受到很多的限制了，現在又因為山坡地比例高，很多土地都會劃成國土保育區。舉例來說，我們卓蘭鎮壢西坪、大湖薑麻園休閒農業區本來就是鯉魚潭水庫周邊飲用水的水源保護區裡面，被劃進國土保育區之後，原有的、舊有農地的資材室以後萬一被檢舉，他們要怎麼樣申請合法？可以申請合法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天很多委員都一直很關心國土計畫法的相關問題，我們答復很多次，是不是請部長再重複一次？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，有關於被劃為農一、農二的部分，如果從事農業的部分，其相關必要的附屬設施都還是根據現在的規定去做，並不會有任何的影響……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以不會受罰就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：什麼？"],["邱委員鎮軍：就不會受罰就對了？就地合法就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，合法的都沒問題，那不合法本來就是不合法，現在的規定也會去做相關的懲處，不會因為國土計畫改變了以後，非法的就一夕之間變合法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為有些說實在的，它是在邊緣，很多農民真的非常的擔心，因為在水庫周邊的土地其實它本身的使用就已經受限了，在苗栗有五個水庫，五個水庫供應全臺灣，對全臺灣來講是非常重要的水資源，當然已經規劃到苗栗縣，因為地理位置的關係，我們當然願意來配合中央，但是我也希望，中央在這方面能夠多為我們農民設想，讓我們農民的權益不會受損，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員能夠協助地方政府，請苗栗縣政府就全國一致的劃編原則，儘快報上來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：苗栗縣政府還沒報上來嘛？對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，就苗栗縣土地如何合理有效率的運用，在保障農民權利的前提之下，儘快核定，它報上來，我們一起做通盤的考量，再整體處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我也接到產業界的陳情，國土計畫土地使用管制規則預告版的第八條沒有納入擴廠機制，也就是不能使用毗鄰非都土地來擴廠，這違反產業創新條例第六十五條的規定，像這兩條法就互相牴觸了，要以哪個為主？"],["陳部長駿季：如果是以新的國土計畫相關規範時，農一跟農二的管制強度是不一樣的，特別農二就是現在的一般農地才有可能有工廠，這個部分它必須要有一個總量管制及其區位引導的前提之下，然後……"],["邱委員鎮軍：總量管制是誰限制的？"],["陳部長駿季：就是縣市政府這邊，它要有一個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：縣府訂定就可以，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，縣府做一個空間規劃，然後要有一個區位的引導，再加上它有一個總量管制的前提之下，那個土地的主管機關就會針對它所報上來的計畫去做核定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你說現在是只要讓縣市政府自己去決定？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，它決定要有三個前提，第一個，它要有一個整體的空間規劃；第二個，它要有一個區位的引導，因為整個國土計畫裡面，農一到農五有不同的區位；第三個，它要有一個總量的管制。在符合這三個條件之下，會送土地主管機關裡面，然後我們會去審查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我知道經濟部這邊也表示過，在國土計畫法的制定過程中有一再反映業界的需求，也有向我們這邊反映，但內政部這邊不接受，未來有擴廠需求的廠商就會碰到這種問題，我想這個問題是不是能夠有一個明確的說法？你剛剛講的那個其實是蠻含糊的，處理下來也是蠻……我想每個縣市的承辦人員一定聽不懂你講什麼，到時候各自解釋而導致產業發展受損，我想這是非常不好的，也希望我們這邊的兩個部會能夠儘快來溝通，這樣好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，請部長回座。","我再請教院長，主計處前兩天公布1到4月的實質薪資平均達到6.3萬元，你相信嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員一樣，我們在初期看到這樣的數字，也認為應該有一個更核實的計算方式，但是傳統上它就是用這樣計算，我們如果能夠把它改成中位數的計算方式，那麼會讓達不到這些數字的人更有感，他是可以藉由努力改善自己。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！公布的這個讓全國人民聽到後大家都很錯愕，尤其是網軍，講了很多很多很好笑的話，說主計處是看到鬼喔！現在是粉飾太平還是怎麼樣。我覺得是這樣子啦！是影響我們機關的公信力，應該要更實質地來報導這樣的事情，因為我們有查過，有68%的民眾月薪不到5萬，47%的民眾月薪不到4萬，所以我認為這個數字是真的差太多，主計處要講一下嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這倒不是影響公信力，它有其依據，只是它是用整體的平均數來算，當然在平均數以下的很多朋友們心裡的感受不好，所以我們已經跟主計處講過，以後要如何在研究上做精進，以改善公布的方式跟內容，讓所有人看到都覺得這個數字跟他是有感情的、是接近的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！因為這個確實……"],["卓院長榮泰：這部分我請主計處說明一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長您這樣講就非常好，希望主計總處這邊以後能夠不要用這種方式，因為這樣會讓人家覺得我們跟人民的距離非常遙遠，很多網軍也調侃，像剛剛很多的話，也有人說這是第四軍的薪水嗎？像這些問題我認為是沒有必要發生的。我們講實際一點，能夠成長我們當然是非常高興，為我們團隊所做出來的成績非常肯定，當然也不要用這些數字來粉飾太平，這樣好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，因為每一個行業不一樣，譬如4月份的平均薪資，住宿和餐飲業是3萬4,700元，如果是屬於美容美髮業就是3萬5,000元，製造業就是4萬4,000元，所以我們這裡也有把各種行業別……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，怎麼加都不到6萬3,000元，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，那是總平均……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在就不要再解釋了，那個我都有看到了，因為再講下去就沒有意思了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我只是希望以後我們公布這些數據的時候，希望能夠更貼近實際的狀況，這樣好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：而且前幾個月是因為有包括獎金，還有一些加班費在裡面，所以金額會偏高，是這樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，謝謝。我再請教院長，我知道現在談到錢就傷情感；談到權力，大家都快要翻臉了，國民黨最近在提要修財劃法，我相信院長你也知道，您對這件事有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：中央政府的財政跟地方政府的財政都應該做合理的規劃，在目前來看，中央政府每年從一般的補助款跟統籌分配稅款對地方政府的補助，各項都是逐年在增加的，這也是在落實均衡臺灣，我想未來在現在財劃法規定的範圍裡面，我們還是會擴大對地方政府的補助。"],["邱委員鎮軍：賴清德總統在2012年當賴市長的時候有提過、在2017年當賴院長的時候也有提過要修財劃法。前幾天我有看了一下其他委員的質詢，院長是說當時和現在的時空背景不一樣，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不僅如此，也要看看當時為什麼推不下去，一定是遭遇到了很多的困難。"],["邱委員鎮軍：應該是這樣講……"],["卓院長榮泰：但這個現象今天還是存在的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，應該是這樣講啦，不是說推得下去、推不下去，您認為有沒有需要改進？這個有沒有需要調整？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得這個大家應該可以公開合理的對話，但是也要考慮到中央政府近年來對地方的補助是一直在增加的，而且從工建、從前瞻、從長照、從各方面的社會福利，這種增加的趨勢是不會緩下來的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道你們都有在做，很好啊，比如像你們之前說的，我們的長照服務、前瞻計畫、因應COVID-19等等的紓困振興、國防的這些政策，這幾年都有在做，可是做完之後，你有沒有覺得……我們每年還超收3,000億，對不對？3,000億的錢，扣掉還債1,530億，再補台電1,000億，還有剩600億，也就是說，我們今天修這個財政收支劃分法，並不會影響到我們做剛剛講的這些長照服務、前瞻計畫的基礎建設等等，這些都不太會影響。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我請部長跟你說明，我覺得稅收的增加，一方面是當時我們評估的比較保守，但最重要的是大家、人民的努力，那這個要厚植國力，我們必須以國家的高度跟角色來看，是不是請部長答復一下？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長講一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，我們的稅收每一塊錢都是按照法律來收的，我們的實徵數如果超過預算數的話，第一個，我們會減少舉債，像去年1,732億就沒有借錢。第二個，我們會增加還債，所以去年我們還了1,260億，剩下的錢我們就會累計到歲計賸餘，那歲計賸餘其實就會作為以後年度國家施政的一個需要，這個對財政量能的累積以及財政的韌性，是有必要這樣做的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我請問一下，您知道我們苗栗縣的財政狀況嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：知道。"],["邱委員鎮軍：除了修財劃法之外，您覺得要怎麼樣才能夠幫助、解決苗栗現在的困境？"],["莊部長翠雲：苗栗縣的狀況是它的債限超過了目前公債法的規定，所以這個部分……"],["邱委員鎮軍：其實當初我們認為……"],["莊部長翠雲：其實苗栗縣政府也非常認真地在還債。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當初主計總處其實也有責任啦，你不能說當年舉債舉超過了，然後現在要地方、後來的縣長來揹，我覺得這也不公平啦，本來當時應該就要反映、應該就要制止，讓它發生當然是不好，但這個過去的事情我們不想再提，我們現在只是想問要怎麼樣來協助苗栗縣解決財政的困境？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我先跟委員說明一下，其實苗栗縣政府也非常努力，它的一個債務還債計畫，一直是符合行政院規定的，同時有關補助的部分，其實主計總處對於苗栗縣的補助，因為它財政能力的關係，所以相對地它的補助比例會比較高。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在我看來，苗栗縣不是沒有能力賺錢跟還錢，其實苗栗的創稅能力相比財政同級的縣市要高出很多，但是因為我們統籌分配款已經25年沒有去修改，這25年來的變化很大，其實你看，我們從以前的兩都現在到六都了，現在除了非六都的十六個縣市，甚至臺南、高雄，他們也支持財政收支劃分法的修法，這樣講啦，我們不希望看到朝野嚴重的對立，就像現在在修財劃法，我們大家都知道，我想院長這邊也應該非常清楚，萬一院版一直都不提出來，到時候三讀之後，院長您會接受到時候的那個版本嗎？是不是又要提釋憲？是不是又要提覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們當然是希望就財劃法現在的內容做檢討，合理的討論都可以，但是委員應該知道，苗栗縣的財政在全國各縣市當中是比較特殊的，所以中央在對苗栗的各種補助，剛剛部長說過了，額度都比較高，而苗栗縣政府對於一些公共建設自籌的部分也相對的低，未來要是中央政府喪失了這樣的財政能力，就沒有辦法再做衡平的考量……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你只要給苗栗縣多一點，它就不會跟你要錢啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：就變成齊頭式的水平分配而已。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對不對？你只要有合理的財劃法的分配，苗栗縣就不需要每一件事情都跟中央要，這是相對的嘛！它有錢的話幹嘛跟你要呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是如果是水平分配變成一種齊頭式的，那當然這個能力就會喪失掉。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長，我這樣講，我希望院版的出來，大家可以朝野協商，我不是說我們國民黨提出來的版本就是要照單全收，我希望院版的出來之後，我們大家可以坐下來談，因為這是關乎於整個臺灣的發展，我不希望它變成政治鬥爭的一個工具，讓整個臺灣在空轉，院長，你支持這樣的說法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院現在就是依照現在的財政收支劃分辦法來做執行，那我們現在用……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你有沒有想要調整呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前在財劃法的內容當中，我們認為現在的執行，中央對地方可以做很大的幫忙跟補助，而且地方實際上也得到每年越來越多的補助，所以這個方向目前看來絕對是正確的，我們希望用這個基礎來做討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣怎麼會正確呢？你把錢抓在手上，高興就給、不高興就不給……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是高不高興，我們是看地方的需求……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣的話每個縣市……"],["卓院長榮泰：地方的需求跟急迫性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我還是覺得為了臺灣的安定，因為我認為財劃法應該也是最近會來三讀，到時候搞成又要覆議、又要釋憲，對我們整個府會的關係真的會越來越不好，我請院長三思好不好？我們再做一個調整。"],["卓院長榮泰：中央還是要有很強的財政分配的比例，比方說這次花蓮的震災，一下子拿出這麼多錢，就是中央集了很多的錢才有辦法做到的，所以應付天災地變的能力，絕對是要把它考慮在內的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！我順著現在院長講到的，我再想到一件事情，前幾天洪孟楷委員在這邊問過院長，就NCC的4位委員的名單，請教您是否給予背書，你有看過，當時您回答說要檢視名單嘛！現在已經過了兩個禮拜，您看過這份名單了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然知道這個名單。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您現在是同意這份名單還是要調整？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為現在名單已經在大院裡面了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，如果你不同意，你可以講啊！那個是可以換的，對不對？如果你覺得那不好，是不是要把名單調整過再送進來？因為他們現在停在那邊，不知道要不要審。"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得應該是照它的時間，大院可以在程序上立刻進行，對這些名單表示意見。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你到底同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它已經送進來，我現在就是用這樣的名單在院裡面……"],["邱委員鎮軍：其實他們在等你，他們問院長……因為我們知道520才換嘛！當然這是陳前院長他的名單，但我們尊重新的院長，因為畢竟未來還是要配合的，你今天如果有意見，其實他們都在等院長您的回復，如果您認為有問題，私下講，我們可以不要在這邊講啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，那……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你偷偷的換也可以啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是不是能夠再經過各黨團意見取得一致，我們來跟大家商量，看到底要怎麼樣來進行，因為NCC不只是單一的任務，它負責很多執照的發給等等，如果讓它停頓下來，對國家、對人民都是非常非常不適當的，所以應該在時間內就儘量完成人事的同意。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，再麻煩院長這個部分快一點。","接下來還是民生的問題，我想經濟部水利署正在研議無自來水地區供水改善第五期的計畫，本席看到近3年自來水普及率並沒有明顯的提升，有兩個區呈現倒退的情形，尤其苗栗縣的普及率仍然是全臺倒數第4名。院長，您知道是什麼原因嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：其實在前瞻基礎建設裡面，苗栗縣得到相關自來水普及的預算也有十六億多，應該占整個前瞻預算的10%左右，應該把它落實下去執行，因為我知道水管的更替、更換等等，或是新設水管，這個都是一個相當繁複的工程，地方政府也要配合。"],["邱委員鎮軍：其實是這樣，我跟院長報告，我發現主要的原因就是自來水延管工程的物價及施工成本大幅的攀升，這是其中一個原因，但是我們政府核定的卻只有1戶60萬元，為什麼是60萬呢？我為什麼會這樣講？我們到現在普及率沒有辦法提高，是因為會沒有自來水的地區，幾乎都是比較偏遠地區，這是一定的，如果你還是以60萬元去做設定的時候，我告訴院長，您這幾年是看不到成績的。偏遠的地方，尤其是原住民等無自來水的地區，成本超過60萬的申請案件，根本就沒有辦法獲得核定，這是最主要的一個原因，我也希望院長能夠提高限制。我知道經濟部水利署好像也向行政院申請延管工程，要把每戶批准的上限調高，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是這樣子，如果每戶超過60萬比較高的費用，可以跟鄰近地區比較便宜的來做一個併用的方式，至於這個是不是適足以解決目前的困難？這當然還要再仔細地去看看執行的結果如何。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道水利署已經有向行政院建議了，好像要提高到80萬元1戶，希望院長能夠幫忙，讓原住民地區能夠到100萬。其實像苗栗縣，苗栗縣有5個水庫，周邊的很多居民，水庫旁邊竟然沒有自來水，你知道這種情形嗎？就是因為卡在60萬元的限制之內，他們根本沒有辦法去達成他們想要的一個水資源，而且水庫就在他家旁邊，這是多麼諷刺，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部應該跟水利署來研究，怎麼樣對人民最有利的方式，我們來共同來討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請院長多多幫忙，好不好？儘量讓普及率能夠提升，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，臺灣最近冒出上百座的垃圾山，科技島淪為垃圾島，過去臺灣是全球垃圾處理與回收領導的國家，但近年來家庭垃圾及事業廢棄物大幅的成長，去年有高達171.5萬噸的事業廢棄物被送進一般的焚化爐燃燒，排擠到我們家戶垃圾的去化。加上焚化爐的屆齡整改，妥善處理率降為93%，全臺灣冒出一百多座暫存的垃圾山，光是去年一年的暫存量，就達到了84萬公噸。我們部長有講過，希望垃圾零成長的前提下去做去化，但是做去化就要12年，以現在的量來算的話是12年，如果沒有擴大處理，我們臺灣勢必會成為垃圾島。院長，我請問一下，我們政府大力推動整改以及新設垃圾處理設施，像這樣的速度，什麼時候可以把它打平，不再增加？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們環境部彭部長很重視這個問題，所以日前我也特別請他來就垃圾裸露、堆積的這個現象，希望他提出一個近程、中程可以解決的方式，而部長有他很精密的計算，跟他工程的計畫，是不是容許部長來向委員說明？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，請部長說明。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個垃圾要零成長，資源回收降低垃圾量是最主要的觀念，但是我們過去因為整改，大概有84萬噸沒錯，其中有七十多萬噸是裸露的，全臺灣沒有百岳啦，大概只有53座的垃圾露天的掩埋。我們目前經過盤點後，4年內會把露天的，我們會特別透過所謂的打包，還有整個用填土方式先處理，4年內大概慢慢地就可以看不到裸露的狀況。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你有地方可以倒，可以掩埋了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前來看的話，因為我們的焚化爐大概要花5、6年才會正式的上來，現在的量真的不夠，焚化廠已經老了……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現階段要怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：如果要把所有的垃圾清掉，真的還要再幾年的時間，但是我們先解決露天掩埋的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我們好像不能等吧？以現在的垃圾量，不光是垃圾，還有事業廢棄物等等，這些都沒地方去啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，現在來說，我們第一個先以一般的家庭垃圾為主，但是因為我們有很多BOT的焚化爐，它也有跟事業廢棄物簽約，我們尊重過去的合約，以現在來看，我們預期未來露天的、沒有掩埋的、在外面的垃圾，大概4年內可以解決。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得是這樣，我在這邊建議，其實大家都知道垃圾要處理，但是就不要在我家旁邊設，這是目前最困難的問題，所以我希望中央能夠極力的主導，要求各縣市政府配合。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得從上到下會比較好，你也知道，縣市政府要做的時候可能會面臨一般民眾的抗爭等等，這部分確實是影響了我們現在的垃圾處理量，就像我們家的要蓋房子一樣，蓋房子總是要有一個化糞池，化糞池總不能蓋到別人家去，我希望各縣市自己能夠處理自己的垃圾量，尤其在新興的產業園區或者是科學園區等等，在設置時是不是也一併把處理廠規劃在裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個是我們現在規劃的方向。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得從這個角度進去，這樣對整個事情的發展會比較好，自己的垃圾自己處理嘛！這樣在園區裡面反對的聲音自然就會下降，因為是大家的垃圾，周邊應該也不會有其他的人，我想……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，報告委員，其實依照地方自治法，垃圾屬於地方自治的項目，但是中央會全力協助地方，我們會一個縣市、一個縣市的跟縣市首長談這個問題，會幫助他們。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，很贊成委員的講法，如果地方政府都有基本能力處理垃圾，會解決很大的問題，中央彭部長現在提的就是53處垃圾堆積、裸露的部分，共84萬噸，要逐年完成，他剛剛說4年，我之前還要求，早一天完成就能讓我們避免滋生其他的問題，所以應該要把時程往前拉。"],["邱委員鎮軍：其實我想大部分縣市政府應該都是比較支持的……"],["彭部長啓明：這個報告委員，很多縣市政府要AI資料中心而不要垃圾焚化爐。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我講了，自己的垃圾自己處理啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們現在會鼓勵他們。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本來就應該要這樣子，把不好的都往外推，好的要留下來，哪有這種事情，對不對？希望中央有一套健全的作法，讓地方政府好配合嘛，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後一個，我想問一下，我在委員會有提過幾次，麻醉藥品「依托咪酯」遭到濫用並做成電子煙，這部分我也質詢了許多次，當然也感謝衛福部跟食藥署有儘快的規劃，已經把依托咪酯列為三級毒品。謝謝，也肯定大家的積極性，不過我們面臨新興毒品殘害的年齡一直往下降，毒品審議的進度趕不上毒品變化的速度，院長，您對這個有沒有什麼想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：對的，誠如委員所說，現在任何犯罪集團跟手法，還有毒品都朝向迅速的多樣化，政府機關應該要趕上腳步，審議的過程應該要吸取更多目前在危害社會、危害青少年的態樣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：應該要快一點……"],["卓院長榮泰：要儘速的因應，才能夠保護大家的安全。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，因為現在真的……當我們把一個毒品列為三級之後，他們又換一個名稱、換一個包裝，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：一直這樣下去，對我們的青少年危害非常的大……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我希望行政院能夠主導相關進度，讓這樣的事情能夠儘快進入狀況、能夠管控，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們加快腳步，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第39號黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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這個我們可以來研議另外"},{"start":207.096,"end":235.003,"text":"我想請教這個我們談到產業園區的部分那包含了土地變更的需求產業儲備用地要納入計畫裡才能按照國土的功能區分調整為城鄉發展區第二類之三及都市計畫農業區辦理變更產業園區這些都需要時間也需要中央跟地方配合才能撞到雙贏像這些沒有劃進去的話以後後續變更就會非常的麻煩"},{"start":236.107,"end":261.262,"text":"那近期我想國土計畫很多縣市出現了很多的聲音,我也接到很多陳情,尤其對於農業縣來說影響最大。這個部分黨派,很多民進黨的委員我想也一直為地方來發聲。尤其在苗栗縣,苗栗縣有水庫,本來開發就受到很多的限制了,現在又因為山坡地比例高很多,土地都會化成這個國土保育區。"},{"start":262.482,"end":284.938,"text":"舉例來說,我們濁南鎮、麗溪坪、大湖江麻園、休閒農業區本來就是鯉魚潭水庫周邊,飲用水的水源保護區裡面。那被劃進國土保育區之後,原有的舊有農地的資材室以後萬一被檢舉,他們要怎麼樣申請合法,可以申請合法嗎?"},{"start":287.445,"end":309.46,"text":"今天很多的委員都一直很關心國土計畫法的相關問題,我們答覆很多次,是不是請部長再重複一次。我跟委員報告,就是有關於被化為農一農二的部分,那如果從事農業的部分,那從事農業它相關的必要的附屬設施都還是根據現在的規定去做,並不會有任何的一個影響。"},{"start":310.541,"end":328.987,"text":"所以他不會受法就對了?就不會受法就對了?他是就地合法就對了?沒有,他是合法的就沒問題。合法的都沒問題。那不合法的本來就是不合法,現在的規定也會去做相關的懲處。不會因為國土計畫改變了以後,非法的就完全一夕之間變合法。"},{"start":331.223,"end":349.712,"text":"因為有些說實在他是在邊緣,那很多農民他真的非常的擔心,因為其實在水庫周邊的土地,他本身的使用就已經受限了。在苗栗有五個水庫,五個水庫供應全台灣對全台灣來講是非常重要的一個水資源。"},{"start":350.722,"end":364.116,"text":"當然已經規劃到苗栗縣因為地理位置的關係我們當然是願意來配合中央但是我也希望說中央在這方面能夠多為我們農民來設想讓我們的農民的權益不會受損這樣好不好"},{"start":364.858,"end":392.14,"text":"那也請委員能夠協助地方政府,請苗栗縣政府就全國一致的劃邊原則,盡快就苗栗縣內的...苗栗縣政府還沒報上來嘛,對不對?對,盡快的就苗栗縣裡面的土地的怎麼樣合理有效率的運用,那保障農民的權利的這個前提底下,盡快核定,然後報上我們一起來這個通盤的考量,再整理的處罰。另外我也接到產業界的陳情,就是說國土計畫土地使用管理規則裡面,"},{"start":393.301,"end":402.011,"text":"預告版第8條沒有納入擴廠機制,也就是說不能使用比林非都土地的擴廠,這違反這個產業創新條例第65條的規定,像這兩條的法就互相的抵觸了,要以哪個為主?"},{"start":411.843,"end":413.283,"text":"總量管制是誰限制的?"},{"start":432.688,"end":449.35,"text":"就是縣市政府這邊,縣府做一個空間規劃,然後要有一個區位的引導,然後再加上他有一個總量管制的一個前提之下,土地的主管機關就會去做一個針對他的一個報上來的這個計畫去做一個核定。"},{"start":450.331,"end":476.83,"text":"對因為這個如果是你說現在是只要讓縣市政府自己去決定不是他決定要有三個前提就是第一個他要有一個整體的空間規劃第二個部分他要有個區位的引導因為整個國土計畫裡面他容易到農務有不同的區位然後第三個部分他要有一個總量的一個管制那在符合這三個條件之下會送那個土地主管機關裡面然後我們會去因為我知道就是說經濟部這邊也表示過國土計畫"},{"start":478.251,"end":491.715,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":491.988,"end":492.328,"text":"請部長回去"},{"start":524.717,"end":538.188,"text":"主計處前兩天公布了一到四月的實質薪資的平均達到6.3萬元,你相信嗎?跟委員一樣,我們在初期看到這樣的數字"},{"start":540.06,"end":568.935,"text":"我們也認為應該有一個更合時的計算方式,但是傳統上他就用這樣的計算,我們如果能夠把它改成中位數的計算方式來講,那麼會讓達不到這些數字的人更有感說他是可以有努力改善自己。公布這個讓全國的人民聽到大家都很錯愕,因為尤其是網軍講了很多很好笑的說主計數是看到鬼,"},{"start":569.628,"end":593.379,"text":"是粉飾太平還是怎麼樣影響我覺得這樣子是影響我們機關的公信力那應該要更實質的來報導這樣的事情因為我們有查過有68%的民眾月薪不到5萬那47%的民眾月薪不到4萬所以我想說這個數字真的是差太多"},{"start":596.2,"end":619.666,"text":"這倒不是影響公信,它有它的依據只是它是用整體的平均數來算當然在平均數以下的很多的朋友們心裡的感受不好所以我們已經跟主席講過以後要在什麼樣研究上精進的來改善這樣公佈的方式跟內容讓所有的人看到覺得這個數字跟他是有感情是接近的"},{"start":620.106,"end":622.191,"text":"對阿,因為這個確實這樣講您這樣講就是非常好,希望主席處這邊主席總處這邊能夠回去"},{"start":627.711,"end":654.708,"text":"以後不要用這種方式因為這樣會讓人家覺得我們跟人民的這個距離非常的遙遠那很多網軍也調侃剛剛很多的話也有人說這是第四軍的這個薪水嗎像這些問題這些我認為是沒有必要發生的啦那我們講實際一點那當然能夠成長我們當然是非常的高興為我們的團隊做出來的成績非常的肯定那當然也不要用這些數字來粉飾太平這樣好不好"},{"start":655.421,"end":683.398,"text":"報告委員因為他每個行業不一樣比如說他平均薪資4月份的話他如果注射和餐飲業是3萬4、4千7那如果是水美容美髮業就是3萬5那製造業就是4萬4那所以我們這裡也有把各種行業對啦怎麼加都不到6萬3啊我現在就不要再解釋啦那個我都有看到啦因為再講下去就沒有意思了那我只是希望說以後我們"},{"start":684.278,"end":707.698,"text":"公布這些數據的時候希望能夠更貼近實際的狀況這樣好不好而且還前幾個月他是因為有包括獎金還有一些加班會在裡面所以就會金額偏高是這樣子好啦好謝謝好謝謝那我再請教處長我知道現在談到錢就傷感情了談到權力大家都快要翻臉了"},{"start":709.804,"end":716.748,"text":"國民黨最近在提修我們才化法我相信院長你也知道那您對這件事有什麼看法?"},{"start":718.561,"end":718.781,"text":"我們的賴清德總統在2012年"},{"start":747.268,"end":775.075,"text":"的賴市長的時候有提過2017年當賴院長的時候也有提過要修這個才化法你前幾天我有看了一下其他委員的質詢院長是說當時現在的時空背景不一樣對不對不僅如此你要看看當時為什麼推不下去一定是遭到了很多的困難應該是這樣講這個現象今天還是存在的對應該是這樣講不是說推不下去推得下去推不下去您認為有沒有需要改進"},{"start":776.015,"end":777.236,"text":"我知道你們都有在做,比如說很好像你們之前說的"},{"start":794.734,"end":809.32,"text":"我們長照服務、前瞻計畫、因應COVID-19等等的紓困的振興、國防的這些政策這幾年都有在做可是做完之後你有沒有覺得我們每年還超收3000億啊對不對3000億的錢扣還債1530億再補台電1000億還有剩600億啊"},{"start":816.983,"end":842.965,"text":"也就是說我們今天在修這個財政收支劃分法並不會影響到我們做這些剛剛我們講的長照的服務前瞻計畫的基礎建設等等這些都不太會影響部長跟你說明我覺得稅收的增加一方面是當時我們評估的比較保守但最重要的是大家人民的努力那這個要厚植國力我們必須讓國家的高度跟角色來看是不是請部長答覆一下部長講一下"},{"start":843.585,"end":872.448,"text":"跟委員說明我們的稅收是每一塊錢都是按照法律來收的那我們的實徵數如果超過預算數的話第一個我們會減少舉債像去年1732億就沒有借錢第二個我們會增加還債所以去年我們還了1260億那剩下的錢我們就會到累計到稅計剩餘那稅計剩餘其實就作為以後年度國家施政的一個需要這個是對財政的量能的累積以及財政的韌性是有必要這樣做的"},{"start":873.035,"end":892.56,"text":"那我請問一下您知道我們苗栗縣的財政狀況除了修財化法之外您覺得苗栗要怎麼樣才能夠幫助解決苗栗現在的困境苗栗縣的狀況是他的一個他的一個債限超過了目前的公債法所以這個部分其實苗栗縣政府也非常認真的在還債主計總署其實也有責任你不能說當年舉債舉超過了然後當然現在地方"},{"start":899.802,"end":914.431,"text":"後來的現場來背我覺得這也不公平了本來當時應該就要反應應該就要制止讓它發生這個當然是不好但這個過去的事情我們不想再提我們現在只是想說怎麼樣來解協助苗栗縣解決財政的困境"},{"start":916.943,"end":943.159,"text":"這個部分我先跟委員說明一下苗栗縣其實縣政府他也非常努力那其實他的一個債務的還債計畫一直符合行政院的一個規定同時呢在那個有關補助的部分其實主計總署對於苗栗縣的補助其實因為他的財政能力的關係所以他相對的補助的比例會比較高其實在我看來苗栗縣不是沒有能力賺錢跟還錢其實苗栗的創水能力"},{"start":943.812,"end":970.575,"text":"相比財政同級的縣市要高出很多但是因為我們統統分配款已經25年了25年沒有去修改這25年的變化很大讓其實你看從我們以前的2都現在到6都了現在從剩下6都在的16個縣市甚至台南高雄他們也支持這樣的一個財政收支劃分法的一個修改"},{"start":971.555,"end":995.495,"text":"我希望這樣講我們不希望看到這個朝野嚴重的對立就像現在在修這個才化法我們大家都知道我想院長這邊也應該非常清楚當然這個東西萬一現在大家院板都一直不提出來三讀到時候三讀之後是不是我想院長您會接受到時候的那個版本嗎是不是又要提視線"},{"start":997.978,"end":1019.04,"text":"我們當然是希望現在的裁判法我們再來做就現在的內容做檢討合理的討論都可以但是委員應該知道苗栗縣的財政在全國各縣市當中是比較特殊的所以中央在對苗栗的各種補助剛剛部長說過了額度都比較高而苗栗縣政府對一些公共建設的自籌的部分也相對的低"},{"start":1019.6,"end":1025.847,"text":"未來要是中央政府喪失了這樣財政能力,就沒有辦法再做合比的考量,就變成齊同式的,水平分配而已。"},{"start":1035.097,"end":1059.448,"text":"這是相對的嘛,他有錢他幹嘛跟你要勒?當然不是齊頭式啦,因為我這樣講,我希望院板的出來大家可以朝野可以協商。我不是說我們國民黨提出來的版本我們就是要照單全收。我希望院板的出來之後我們大家可以坐下來談,因為這是關乎於整個台灣的一個發展。"},{"start":1060.309,"end":1060.649,"text":"我目前在這個"},{"start":1078.396,"end":1081.118,"text":"這樣怎麼會正確呢?你把錢抓在手上,高興就給你,不高興就不給你。我們是看地方的需求跟急迫性。"},{"start":1103.184,"end":1126.954,"text":"我還是覺得為了台灣的安定因為馬上我認為財化法應該也是最近也會來煽毒那到時候又搞成又要復議又要釋憲那對我們整個府會的關係真的會越來越不好那我請這個院長三思好不好我們再做一個調整中央還是要有很強的財政的"},{"start":1127.534,"end":1137.483,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":1138.025,"end":1166.361,"text":"這個能力的應付,絕對是要把他考慮在內的。好啦,那我順著現在院長講的話,再想到一件事情,就是說前幾天我們的洪孟楷委員在這邊來問過院長,就NCC的市委委員的名單,請教您是否給予背書嗎?你有看過,當時您回答說要檢視名單嘛,現在已經過了兩個禮拜,您看過這份名單了沒有?我當然知道這個名單。您現在呢,這個是同意這份名單還是?"},{"start":1168.318,"end":1192.93,"text":"因為現在名單已經在大院裡面了。不是,如果你不同意你可以講啊,我們那個是可以換的。對不對?如果你覺得那不好,是不是要把名單調整過再送進來?因為他們現在停在那邊,不知道要不要審。我覺得應該照他的時間,那個大院可以在程序上立刻進行,對這些名單表示意見。你到底同不同意嗎?"},{"start":1193.919,"end":1218.179,"text":"因為他已經送進來,我現在就是用這樣的名單在院裡。其實他們在等你啊,他們問院長的,因為我們知道520才換嘛。那當然這是前院長陳院長的他的名單。那當然我們尊重新的院長,因為畢竟未來還是要配合的。那你今天如果有意見,其實他們都在等院長您的回覆。如果您認為有問題私下講嘛,那我們可以不要在這邊講啊。"},{"start":1219.718,"end":1220.118,"text":"你脫脫這個範圍可以啊。"},{"start":1240.191,"end":1268.889,"text":"好,再麻煩院長這個部分快一點那接下來還是民生的問題我想經濟部水利署正在研議自來水無自來水地區供水改善第五期的計畫那本期看到是近三年自來水普及率並沒有明顯的提升有兩個區呈現倒退的這個情形尤其苗栗縣的普及率仍然是全台倒數第四名院長您知道是什麼原因嗎"},{"start":1270.37,"end":1271.07,"text":"其實是這樣,我跟院長報告"},{"start":1296.704,"end":1307.447,"text":"我認為的我發現的主要原因就是自來水沿管工程的物價及施工的成本大幅的攀升這是其中一個原因但是我們政府這個核定的"},{"start":1307.978,"end":1333.422,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":1334.548,"end":1354.838,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":1355.157,"end":1382.958,"text":"行政院申請嚴管工程每戶批准這個上限要調高對吧我們現在是這樣子這個如果每戶超過60萬的這個比較高的這個費用那可以跟鄰近地區比較便宜的來做一個併用的方式那這個是不是世足以來解決目前的困難這當然還要再去仔細的去看看他執行的結果如何我知道水利署已經有向行政院建議了他好像要提高到80萬元一戶"},{"start":1385.071,"end":1411.307,"text":"希望院長能夠幫忙,原住民地區能夠到100萬,其實像苗栗縣,其實苗栗縣有5個水庫,周邊的很多居民,水庫旁邊竟然沒有自來水,你知道這種情形嗎?就是因為他卡在這個60萬元的限制之內,他們根本沒有辦法去達成他們想要的這個水資源,而且水庫就在他家旁邊,這是多麼諷刺。"},{"start":1413.378,"end":1436.757,"text":"應該經濟部來跟水利署研究怎麼樣對人民最有利的方式我們來共同來討論請院長多多幫忙好不好盡量讓這個普及率能夠提升另外還有我想臺灣最近冒出上百座的垃圾山這個科技島淪為垃圾島"},{"start":1439.494,"end":1448.987,"text":"過去臺灣是全球垃圾處理與回收的領導的國家但近年來家庭垃圾及事業廢棄物大幅的成長去年有高達171.5萬"},{"start":1452.551,"end":1469.667,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":1470.168,"end":1491.468,"text":"那全臺灣冒出100多座暫存的這個垃圾山光是去年一年的暫存量就達到了84萬公噸我們部長有講過希望垃圾零成長的前提下去做去化但是做去化就要12年以這樣算的話以現在的量來算的話是12年那如果沒有擴大處理我們臺灣勢必會成為垃圾島那院長請問一下"},{"start":1494.33,"end":1503.136,"text":"我們政府大力推動整改及新設垃圾處理設施什麼時候像這樣的速度什麼時候可以把它打平"},{"start":1504.322,"end":1523.784,"text":"報告委員我們環境部彭部長很重視這個問題所以日前我也特別請他來就這個垃圾垃圾堆積的這個現象希望他提出一個進程中程可以解決的方式那部長有他很精密的計算跟他工程的計畫是不是容許部長來向委員說明"},{"start":1524.905,"end":1541.567,"text":"報告委員其實第一個垃圾要零成長資源回收是最主要的降低這個垃圾量是最主要的觀念但是我們現在過去因為整改大概有84萬噸沒錯那其中大概有70多萬噸是裸露的那全台灣沒有百月大概只有"},{"start":1542.108,"end":1545.769,"text":"那你有地方了嗎?有地方可以掩埋了嗎?"},{"start":1561.793,"end":1585.098,"text":"目前來看的話因為我們的掩埋場大概還要花5、6我們的焚化爐要5、6年才會正式的上來因為現在的量真的不夠因為焚化廠已經老了所以大概還要如果真的要把所有的垃圾清掉真的還要再幾年的時間但是我們先解決露天的掩埋的部分但是我們好像不能等吧以現在的垃圾量不光是垃圾還有失業廢棄物等等這些都沒地方去啊"},{"start":1585.598,"end":1586.239,"text":"我覺得這樣,我在這邊建議"},{"start":1608.596,"end":1636.056,"text":"就是說其實大家都知道垃圾要處理但是就不要在我家旁邊設這是目前最困難的問題所以我希望中央能夠來極力的主導要求各縣市政府來配合我覺得從上到下會比較好因為如果縣市政府要做的時候可能會面臨你也知道一般的民眾的抗爭什麼這個部分確實是影響了我們現在垃圾處理的量"},{"start":1637.073,"end":1644.517,"text":"我希望說各縣市自己能夠處理自己的垃圾量尤其在新興的這些產業園區或者是這些科學園區等等在設置的時候是不是也一併規劃處理廠在裡面對這個是我們現在規劃的方向我覺得從這個角度來進去這樣子對整個事情的"},{"start":1665.606,"end":1669.628,"text":"謝謝委員其實現在的依照地方自治法垃圾是屬於地方自治的項目但是我們中央會全力的來協助地方我們一個縣市一個縣市會跟我們縣市首長來談這個問題會幫助他們"},{"start":1693.909,"end":1712.098,"text":"謝謝委員很贊成委員的講法如果地方政府都有能力基本處理垃圾會解決很大很大的問題那中央彭博長現在提的就是對53處垃圾漏落的堆積漏落的這個部分八十四萬噸他逐年他剛剛說四年我日前還要求說早一天完成"},{"start":1712.698,"end":1739.745,"text":"就讓我們可以避免自身其他的問題,所以應該把時程往前拉。其實各縣市政府,我想大部分應該都是比較支持的。報告委員,很多的縣市政府是要AI這個資料中心,不要垃圾焚化爐。那你的,所以我講啊,自己的垃圾自己處理啊。對,我們現在會鼓勵他。這個本來就應該要這樣子啊。你不能說把不好的往外推,好的要留下來,哪有這種事情,對不對?"},{"start":1740.775,"end":1767.452,"text":"希望就是中央您有一套健全的一個做法讓地方政府好配合嗎?好不好?好,謝謝委員那最後一個我想問一下就是我們在這個我在委員會我有問有提過幾次就是麻醉藥品依託民意值遭到濫用然後做成電子菸這個部分呢我們也質詢了許多次那當然也感謝我們衛福部跟這個"},{"start":1769.168,"end":1793.064,"text":"實要署這邊有來盡快的規劃,已經把伊托米子列為三級的毒品。謝謝,我們也肯定大家的積極性。不過我們面臨新興毒品,財難的年齡一直往下降。那毒品審議的進度趕不上毒品變化的速度。我想院長您對這個有沒有什麼想法?"},{"start":1793.84,"end":1822.41,"text":"對的,陳副委員所說的現在任何犯罪的集團跟手法還有毒品都朝向迅速的多樣化那政府機關應該要趕上這個腳步所以這個審議的過程應該要吸取更多目前在危害社會危害青少年的這樣太陽緊速的來因應才能夠保護大家的安全對,因為你真的現在他們就是說我們當列一個毒品我們把它列為三級之後他們又換一個名稱換一個包裝"},{"start":1823.11,"end":1825.611,"text":"謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第39號黃捷委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c0185fc6e0e9cda6d0b445b353bd3059915546051f742c4eddec5d71fa32a71faafad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"14:31:10 - 14:48:23","影片長度":"00:17:13","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T14:31:10+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T14:48:23+08:00","duration":1033,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（14時31分）謝謝主席，我們有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：院長好。院長，首先請教你一個有趣的問題，你小時候喜不喜歡玩啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起。"],["張委員雅琳：院長，你小時候喜歡玩嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：玩喔？"],["張委員雅琳：對，小時候。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然喜歡玩，現在也喜歡。"],["張委員雅琳：為什麼你喜歡玩？玩給你帶來什麼樣的感受？"],["卓院長榮泰：快樂。"],["張委員雅琳：快樂，對不對？好。佛洛伊德說遊戲是對應社會壓力的一個安全閥門，其實它帶給我們很多的快樂、非常開心，不過也有非常多研究告訴我們，玩不僅只是開心而已，也帶來很多身心健康，對兒童發展是非常重要的一件事情，但是大多數的大人不瞭解，所以我今天會花一些篇幅來做個說明。","首先，我讓院長看一下現在孩子遇到的一個困境，現在的孩子自殺率跟自傷率是節節上升，最主要的壓力來源來自於精神疾患，可能是焦慮、憂鬱，也有一些是學習、網路等等，當然也有家庭的關係。再讓院長看一個可怕的數字，我們的早療人數在今年屢創新高，已經突破10萬人，同時孩子過胖的問題相比十年之前也增加兩到四個百分點，等於是我們的肥胖人數愈來愈多。同樣最新的，這個月的親子天下針對五年級到國中的學生做一個調查，每十個孩子就有三個孩子害怕失敗。","院長，疫情結束了，百工百業都在慢慢復甦，但是我們孩子的身心健康卻逐漸惡化，現在孩子生的這麼少，我們是不是能夠一起努力把每一個孩子都顧好？退一百萬步來講，我們要講AI這件事情，但是沒有人也是枉然，所以院長認為我們是不是應該為孩子的身心健康來一個校正回歸？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。委員，疫情之後不僅是經濟要復甦，人跟人之間的往來也歷經一段幾乎是比較隔絕、冷漠的時代，從成人到小孩都歷經這個時段。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：成人可能心理上的建設比較強一點，但小孩子經過那一段，對他以後的發展，我們應該施予更大的關心跟協助。"],["張委員雅琳：同意，因為孩子的身心健康跟環境、時間都非常仰賴政府的政策以及大人的態度，所以我剛剛講的這些其實全世界都面臨一模一樣的問題，不管是美國的小兒科醫學會也好，或是聯合國、或是各國都有相關的醫療研究告訴我們一個很重要的解方，一個早期介入、早期預防的解方其實就是遊戲，就是玩！我這邊引用世界經濟論壇，它講了一句話叫做：「遊戲帶來心理的韌性」，那不僅只是心理韌性，它也可以發展情緒智商、解決能力、創造力，這些都是未來五年非常重要的工作技能，它是非常重要的軟實力，對應到我們現在要發展AI。所以如果我們可以把孩子的身心打底顧得好的話，不僅是讓他可以健健康康地長大，還可以為國所用，所以這件事情非常重要，所以一定要玩，一定要有時間跟空間。","去年民間團體做了一個訪談，我想這些大家不意外啦！小孩自己說了，這30個小孩說：下課、放學或假日，其實我都沒有時間遊戲，因為我可能都要寫功課，尤其在週末、連假會有更多的作業。然後小孩甚至說了一句話，他說我的上班時間比我的爸爸媽媽還要長，小孩也有說，就算是下課，老師可能也會叫他去跑步、跑操場，因為要完成一項作業，叫作SH150，所以就變成小孩其實根本沒有時間玩。","再來，運動場地空間的部分，我們從奧運的項目，這是奧運的項目，我們可以看到年年都有新的項目，所以等於是它推陳出新，持續地去貼近青少年的喜好，可是我們現在給的場地大多還是籃球場、操場這些東西，我們可以從事多元的活動項目其實是非常少的，所以非常需要政府有計劃的來推動新增新興項目的兒少活動場域。","我們其實也做了非常多事情，衛福部在2018年有因應肥胖推出一個全民身體活動指引，教育部也有推出一個剛剛講的SH150，說要激發兒童的運動興趣、動機，每週應該要達到150分鐘的遊戲活動時間。可是我們可以看到左邊這份報告，由臺灣體育運動大學及中興大學在近期發表的臺灣兒童及青少年身體活動報告書，顯示的是什麼？我們跟2018年比，做這麼多事情喔！我們的身體活動量還是不及格的，還是一個F等級，跟世界組織要求的每日運動時間，只有不到20%的青少年可以達成，我想這些方案我們都執行了那麼久，還是沒有成效，我們是有必要做一個全面性的檢討。","今年，聯合國第一次串聯了140個國家要通過6月11號為國際遊戲日，其中強調四點呼籲政府優先來做，以達成SDGs相關的成果，第一個，遊戲式親職教養；第二個，學前教育；第三個，保護兒童遊戲空間不受氣候、政策影響；第四個，整合性遊戲式教學。我想要請教院長的就是，許多國家其實都有一些本土的遊戲研究或是一些研討會，但臺灣是非常缺乏的，就我所知，最近一次辦的還是民間自己發起的，所以我想我們剛看了這麼多身心的問題，我們是不是可以要求衛福部做一個臺灣的本土性研究，瞭解遊戲的一些問題，將環境及困境做一些分析之後，制定一個國家級的兒童遊戲政策，跟上英國或日本、西班牙等等國家來制定這些政策，這部分是不是可以請院長支持，請衛福部來做呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。我們知道委員長年在推動特色公園，也因為這樣得到社會很大的肯定，那個就是一個在地的小朋友的遊憩場所，能夠讓他在一個在地環境裡面成長的一個很好的設計，將來我看委員現在提出的這些問題，是把它升級成為一個更多元、更國際化、更心理層面的，這個部分我想對小朋友心理的輔導，我們也一直要加強，如果能夠寓教於樂，讓它產生更好的效益，是不是請衛福部能夠來說明目前已經在進行的若干計畫。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，報告委員，國民健康署非常注重兒童的身心健康，心理健康師也一直在推相關的一些活動，成效都相當的好。未來健康臺灣的一些策略裡面，也特別提到小孩子的心理跟社會素質的學習，我相信這個都跟委員……"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉！部長，我打斷一下，我知道我們有做這些兒童健康，但是坦白說，我們其實都是從身體活動來說，並沒有從遊戲這個角度來切……"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我才會說，因為其實我們對本土的研究是相當相當的少，現在即便是民間的社團，引用都是國際研究的數字，所以是不是可以有一個本土性的研究，了解臺灣兒童遊戲的現況及困境，並且來制定國家級的遊戲政策，這部分是可以的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也可以請教育部說明一下目前部裡面的計畫。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，我想我非常同意委員所說的，就遊戲的部分，有太多的國外研究證據，包括國內研究證據也都支持這是有助於兒童的想像力、創造力的提升，包括透過遊戲，能夠有很多的遊戲規則、團隊……"],["張委員雅琳：我瞭解、我瞭解，我們可以直接進入主題。"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我想有一個更清楚的兒童遊戲政策，相關研究我們很樂意來進行。"],["張委員雅琳：所以是由教育部來執行這個計畫嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，可以，沒有問題。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝教育部部長願意承擔這件事情，來研究並制定國家級的遊戲政策，這部分我們後續再追一下部長相關的時程。","我們剛剛講了時間，再來就是空間，在時間上面，其實我覺得我們需要發起一個跨部會的合作，跨部會一起來支持，因為其實剛剛講了時間、空間之外，還有人的部分，家長可不可以支持？所以我們是不是可以一起來做很多事情，讓家長一起來支持？例如早自習的時間是不是可以鼓勵小孩來遊戲，而不是考試或是坐在那邊自習？這部分是不是可以請教育部來協助？第二個部分，是不是可以請衛福部協助在兒童健康手冊裡面加入遊戲的概念？因為我們現在只有告訴他要怎麼樣發展，可是到底要怎麼做，其實家長不知道，這件事情可不可以來做？接下來，國際研討會是不是也可以一起來執行？就有關遊戲對孩子的好處這件事情，可不可以請國際的學者帶進一些新的概念給家長？第三個部分就是我們的公園，我先講一下經濟部的部分，如果今天企業做了一些支持兒童的遊戲政策的話，是否可以納入ESG相關的成果積分指標，這是可以的嗎？我剛剛講的這三件事情，就是有關衛福部、教育部、內政部相關的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員建議的是一個很好的方式，我們也鼓勵企業多多對社會做更多的社會投資，這一點可以把它納進來，我們好好地來研究。"],["張委員雅琳：院長，不好意思，我們是不是可以有一個跨部會的平台呢？不只是我們講講就好，而是可以實際地去稽查、監督呢？可不可以成立這樣的跨部會平台？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛教育部的部分已經有計畫在進行，我請教育部把計畫能夠再精密地設計出來，將來一定會有一些跨部會的合作，我們那個時候再來想用什麼樣的機制，或者透過什麼樣的會議來把它形成更完善的體質，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。再來就是有關內政部的部分，可以看到這張表，我們過去雖然有一些特色公園，但其實這裡面有一個很大的問題，你可以看到八成的特色公園都在六都，資源不但分配不均，而且還不足，不足的地方是，就算是六都，也是三千多個小孩分一座；非六都的要到六千多個小孩才分一座，所以我覺得這個部分是不是也應該要來好好處理？尤其是在公園的維管上面，我們常常遇到一些人力、物力、維管工法的困難，可是現在無人可管，現在沒有一個主責單位可以管，在相關組織條例舊的版本是有市區公園建設在裡面，可是在新的組織法裡面公園卻消失了，所以沒有一個主責機關，到底要由誰來訂立一些相關的指引跟規範，對地方的公園進行督導？現在是一個無主孤魂的狀態。所以是不是可以請院長請內政部來提組織法修法，還是在修法過渡期間可以由內政部來擔任主管機關？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們也發現到剛剛委員所提到的，城鄉落差、均衡臺灣到現在還是一個相當要努力的方向，所以我們才提出均衡臺灣、在地希望，希望把所有的水平都往上拉高。而有關公園的主管，我記得以前臺北市政府還有公園路燈管理處……"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在誠如委員所講的，可能沒有一個很適當的主管機關，是不是這個意思？"],["張委員雅琳：是中央部會沒有。"],["卓院長榮泰：應該也是有，地方政府應該是有的。"],["張委員雅琳：地方政府是有，可是中央是沒有人來協助地方做這件事情，所以變成地方就自己做自己的，有問題的話，他們也不知道到底可以請教誰，所以才想說是不是可以請內政部在這個修法期間……因為過去也是由內政部來管嘛，我們現在是不是可以請內政部持續擔任這個主管機關？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝院長。張委員非常注重特色公園的建立，目前所有的公園，除了國家公園是由我們內政部主管以外，其他是由縣市政府主管，他們在推動的過程當中，包括建設，有督導事項的話，就由我們內政部來幫忙督導。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝部長。","再來，我想要討論一個轉型正義的議題，有關轉型正義目前的情況，今天早上才通過了黨產條例要送委員會討論，但是我對卓院長還是非常有信心，因為院長過去在2020年擔任民進黨黨主席的時候也曾經說過：這只是個起頭，我們要持續努力來做。","接下來就是促轉基金這件事情，目前的使用還是由各部會自己做一些使用，我在想是不是可以仿照東德或是族群和諧基金，我們可不可以有一些更有創意的作法、讓民間的創意可以進來？這件事情是不是可以……因為像東德的作法非常的多元，我們也必須要讓大家瞭解，人民是一起來參加轉型正義的行動，例如上個月很多民眾在全臺灣發起了青鳥行動，我想這個青鳥行動代表的是，我們過去民主前輩的努力、奮鬥在每個人的心上扎了自由的根，所以才會讓大家遇到憲政體制要被崩壞的時候主動站出來，捍衛我們臺灣的人權、捍衛臺灣的體制，所以我認為青鳥行動不是偶然，是一個必然！所以我們就必須要繼續做。因此是不是可以邀請行政院來研擬促轉基金挹注民間的機制？讓我們民間可以公私協力、讓民主人權可以更加活化！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，轉型正義取回了不當黨產，除了有可能發回給受害人之外，目前就是國發會也跨部會來運用，成立一個類似基金的方式，未來一定是妥善地運用，讓轉型正義還給大家一個公平、正義的態度。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也跟委員報告一下，目前促轉條例是可以讓民間來申請的，只要民間申請，我們就會透過一個審議委員會獨立運作來做核准。"],["張委員雅琳：因為民間申請的部分，相對來說現在是回到各部會自己來，就是有些部會有讓它到民間嘛。那我在想說，我們是不是可以有一個更活化的機制，讓它可能可以直接跟行政院這邊申請，讓這些創意可以更積極的被展現，這件事情是不是可以來研擬，好不好？你們研擬看看，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們來研議。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，最後我想要送院長一個東西，這個是兒童遊戲宣言，這是兒童去年講的一些心聲，我也希望可以代表兒童送給院長，讓你瞭解他的困境！"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第38號邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱議瑩","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張雅琳","邱鎮軍","黃捷","廖先翔","陳冠廷","許宇甄","吳宗憲"],"page_start":29,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002","1135701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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是只是我們講講就好,而是可以實際的去稽查監督呢?我們可不可以成立這樣的跨部會的平台?"},{"start":694.892,"end":710.228,"text":"我是不是剛剛這個教育部已經有計畫在進行,我請教育把計畫能夠再精密的這個設計出來,那將來一定會有一些跨部會的合作。我們那個時候再來想用什麼樣的機制,或者透過什麼樣的會議來把它形成更完善的這個體制好不好。"},{"start":710.748,"end":711.128,"text":"內政部內政部"},{"start":729.502,"end":736.044,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分我們是不是應該要來好好處理尤其是說在公園的圍管上面我們常常遇到一些人力物力、圍管工法的困難可是現在無人可管"},{"start":753.909,"end":773.884,"text":"現在沒有一個組織單位可以管。就是在我們的組織法以前我們在以前舊的版本我們是有市區公園的建設在裡面可是新的組織法裡面公園卻消失了可是沒有一個組織機關到底誰來訂立一些相關的指引跟規範這是對地方的公園進行一些督導這是現在是"},{"start":775.225,"end":775.726,"text":"內政部主管機關"},{"start":787.805,"end":815.978,"text":"是的,我們也發現到剛剛委員所提到的城鄉的落差,均衡臺灣到現在還是一個相當要努力的方向。所以我們在提出均衡臺灣在地希望,希望把所有的水平都往上拉高。那公園的主管,我記得以前臺北市政府還有公園路燈管理處。對。現在可能沒有一個很適當的主管機關,是不是這個意思?是中央的部會,中央部會沒有。地方政府應該是有的。"},{"start":816.078,"end":833.728,"text":"地方政府是有可是變成是中央是沒有人去來協助地方做這件事情所以變成是說地方都自己做自己的有問題的話他們也不知道到底可以請教誰所以才想說是不是可以請內政部來在這個修法期間因為過去也是由內政部來管嘛我們現在是不是可以請內政部來持續擔任這個主管機關"},{"start":836.33,"end":852.325,"text":"謝謝縣長。張委員非常注重這個特色公園的建立。目前所有的公園除了國家公園是由我們內政部來主管以外,那其他的縣市政府來主管。那他們在推動的過程當中包括建設有督導的事項的話就由我們內政部來幫忙督導。"},{"start":854.847,"end":882.806,"text":"謝謝部長,那再來就是說我想接下來討論一個轉型正義的議題。轉型正義目前我想之前今天早上才過了這個黨產條例要送這個委員會來討論,但是我對卓院長還是非常有信心,因為院長過去也曾經在2020年擔任民進黨黨主席的時候也有說過這只是個起頭,我們要持續的努力的來做。那接下來就是促轉基金這件事情目前的使用還是由各部會自己來做一些使用。"},{"start":884.467,"end":909.288,"text":"但是呢...抱歉上夜跳掉了抱歉就是說我們在想是不是可以仿造東德或是族群和諧基金我們可不可以有更一些創意的做法讓民間的創意可以進來這件事情是不是可以因為像東德的做法非常的多元那我想我們也必須要讓大家來了解人民是一起來參加這個轉型正義的行動"},{"start":910.229,"end":935.843,"text":"例如上個月,我們的很多的民眾來全臺灣發起了這個青鳥行動。我想這個青鳥行動,它代表的是我們過去的民主前輩的努力、奮鬥,在每個人的心上扎了這個自由的根。所以才會讓大家遇到這樣子,憲政體制要被崩壞的時候,主動的站出來捍衛我們的臺灣人權,捍衛臺灣的這個體制。所以我認為青鳥行動不是偶然,是一個必然。"},{"start":936.443,"end":948.134,"text":"所以我們就必須要繼續做,所以不曉得是不是可以邀請人權,呃,行政院來當,來研擬這個促轉基金,益助民間的這個機制,讓我們的民間可以……公司協力,讓這個民主人權可以更加的活化。"},{"start":967.95,"end":974.733,"text":"媒體媒體媒體媒體"},{"start":985.307,"end":985.327,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":1010.351,"end":1019.02,"text":"這是兒童遊行宣言,這是兒童誓言,他們講一些心聲,那我也希望會代表兒童來送給我們的院長,讓他了解他的困境這一章。"}]}},{"id":"154043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c0185bd6c6b7702325a985b353bd3059915547564afe154b26917f2f4c7b5986f42ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:55:08 - 12:25:37","影片長度":"00:30:29","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T11:55:08+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T12:25:37+08:00","duration":1829,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1041,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時55分）院長，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長好。這次我們的AI行動內閣進用了很多實務界的專業人士，各界也都很期待我們的內閣團隊是一個很接地氣的內閣，院長對我們的內閣有什麼樣的期許呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員對我們的肯定，誠如你所說的，我們有來自產業界、有來自學術界，也有原來在陳建仁院長時代留下來的幾位很優秀的部會首長，我希望新舊之間儘快的融合，我們跟人民展現的就是我們要用行動，積極行動跟創新的理念，將它放在我們對每一項，所以我們說，我們會到發現問題的第一線、解決問題的第一線，也提出正確方法的第一線，我們會努力讓自己在這個工作上做好自己應該有的責任。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席也對院長所帶領的內閣團隊充滿了期待，希望可以排除藍綠之間的爭議，做一些福國利民，真正對臺灣好的政策。我知道院長很少提到家庭，不曉得院長當阿公了沒有？如果不想回答，可以不用回答，不方便回答，可以不用回答，但有一個趨勢……"],["卓院長榮泰：我只是有老人卡而已。"],["張委員嘉郡：有一個趨勢要讓院長知道，從2016開始，我們臺灣的生育率每況愈下，從2020年開始，我們臺灣已經進入了一個生不如死的狀態，每年以一萬這樣子的人口數下降，這樣子急遽的下降，可以說少子化變成一個國安問題，為什麼年輕人不敢生，院長知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有一些是社會環境的變遷，有一些是經濟的因素，還有很多就是生下來之後他的教養問題，國家還要持續給他更多的協助。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，院長講到重點，其實就是教養問題，就是經濟問題。現在行政院要推動托育政策2.0版，但很奇怪的是少子化明明是越來越嚴重，但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼時還是抽不到，不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反映過說：「怎麼辦？抽不到耶！怎麼樣都抽不到公幼。」有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：過去蠻嚴重的，那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩，但是政府的各項措施，包括公托、準公托的設施，還要繼續的強化精進。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯，目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬，占比67.6%，讀公幼的學生只有18.5萬，占比32.4%，為什麼家長都想讀公幼呢？因為收費比較便宜，現在只有三成的公幼，家長真的很辛苦，平常要工作，然後還要去打聽說哪一個幼兒園的中籤率比較高，然後抽中的算幸運，不抽中的是常態，所以是否有可能繼續增加公幼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們會持續的在各地方增設相關的公共化幼兒中心，讓需要的爸爸媽媽跟小朋友都能夠有一個更好的學習環境。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個我們都共同的期待。那在公幼銜接上需求之前，本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助？因為就現行的育兒津貼而言，第一胎每個月只有5,000塊，那第二胎當然有6,000塊等等，但養過小孩的家長都知道，一個月5,000元的補助，可能小孩的奶粉錢都超過這個錢了，更何況還有尿布、副食品、生病等等各種的花費，所以在這裡建議院長可以納入物價指數來修正補助，當物價指數大幅提高，超過警戒值的時候，希望我們行政院可以有所因應。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，育兒津貼從創設到現在，逐步有在增加當中，而且這個速度是考量政府財政的負擔，所以在這個情況底下，我們一樣的，當少子化的問題日趨嚴重的情況底下，政府投資跟社會投資都會日益增加，在這過程當中……"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點拜託院長特別關心。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定在財政衡量容許的範圍當中……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，繼續研議……"],["卓院長榮泰：盡量鼓勵，也盡量照顧。"],["張委員嘉郡：來幫助這些有小baby的家庭，然後也鼓勵更多的年輕人願意生小孩，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝院長。接下來，最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展，國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻，尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠，輝達執行長黃仁勳在臺灣逛夜市，但是輝達其實不一定要逛夜市，它也可以吃韓牛、可以吃壽司，我們現在是跟全世界一起在競爭輝達設廠。所以要向院長來推薦，我們雲林縣就是一個非常適合這些科技大廠設廠的地方，因為雲林縣的土地目前是各縣市裡面最完整、最大的，首先，在高鐵站旁我們已經準備好高鐵特定產業專區，有10公頃的土地可以標售，而且可以立即進駐。當然，另外雲林縣現在在推動的是中科二期擴大，已經向台糖拿到了用地同意函32.8公頃，也向台電拿到了用電同意函跟自來水公司的用水同意函，現在只需要院長輕輕一推，我們就有可能順利拿到土地變更，現在土地變更已經送到了農業部，是不是可以請院長大力支持呢？中科二期擴大。"],["卓院長榮泰：首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長，他喜愛夜市讓臺灣的美食揚名世界，我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨、漂亮，而且衛生、營養。再來，輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況已經接近相當的飽和之中，他會尋求各地方，但是除了他公司產業布局的選擇之外，我們也希望他選擇臺灣的任何一個地方，我們都能夠提供最好的公共服務、基礎設施的服務，但是這樣的世界大廠要選擇在哪裡，他現在還沒有做明確的明示底下，我們現在只能是等待他做好更多地方的選擇跟調查。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然。但是本席剛剛第二個問題是，我們中科二期擴大現在已經拿到用水同意函、用電同意函跟用地同意函，已經進入到土地變更的期程，在之前經濟部是一直都非常的支持，目前需要農業部儘速把變更土地核定下來，我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程，這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速來審查我們的土地變更案呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：初步計畫審查通過，現在是取得用地的階段。"],["張委員嘉郡：用地已經同意了。"],["卓院長榮泰：還沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們已經拿到了台糖的用地同意函。"],["吳主任委員誠文：台糖的部分沒有問題，現在是私人土地，那邊有一個高爾夫球場……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們沒有高爾夫球場，你弄錯了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：中科，你講的是……"],["張委員嘉郡：中科二期在虎尾。"],["吳主任委員誠文：虎尾的部分？"],["張委員嘉郡：在虎尾的部分，我們已經全部都送到農業部，要等待農業部審查，所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。"],["卓院長榮泰：請農業部來說明一下。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，有關於相關的專案，如果整個院的專案核定了以後，農地的變更是一個程序，我們一定會配合。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，拜託部長可以儘速審查完成，因為這不只對雲林縣很重要，對臺灣未來的發展也很重要，因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃，但是它連結褒忠、土庫、東勢整個台糖的農場1,600公頃，放眼未來50年，假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續在臺灣深耕，它上、下游整合有充沛的土地，包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫、海水淡化場，包括我們有集集攔河堰的這些水，我們有充沛的用水、用電，包括我們有充沛的太陽能光電跟再生能源等等，用水、用電、用地都沒有問題，可以支撐AI產業跟半導體產業下一個50年在臺灣深耕，我覺得這可以決定未來臺灣在國際的競爭力。今天院長帶領經濟部長、農業部長等等，大家都在這裡，希望你們可以大力的來支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛說程序已經在進行了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是整個專案核定以後，農地就會配合做正式的變更。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，拜託了，這一點特別拜託。經濟部部長，你要不要講一下？是不是可以支持？"],["郭部長智輝：是，經濟部也是一樣，當然行政院院長整合以後，我們一定是全力支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝部長。當然，AI產業是我們重大產業發展方向，對於AI產業的發展，院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了在硬體的設施及軟體的加強之外，應該要跟世界各個進步的國家及廠商合作，但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，人才是一個很大的需求，當然，全國的用電上面也是一個很大的問題。前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長，就是AI伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍。在美國，ChatGPT每天要消耗56萬度的電，相當於我們臺灣夏季用電每天4萬戶的用電。院長，你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：郭部長幾次談過台電對現在用電的評估，到2030年前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕，但是要針對高科技的發展，現在政府更必須積極地拓展更多多元的能源，包括展綠、發展更多的綠能，才能夠滿足業界的需求。至於細部怎麼去規劃、幾個正在進行的發電機組補上來，都是經濟部、台電每天在密切注意的東西。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，當然，再生能源、綠能這些，本席都非常、非常地支持，我覺得這是全世界的趨勢，但是院長有考慮過以核養綠嗎？有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一、核二重啟呢？因為核三今年就要除役了，可能會有6至7%的用電缺口，院長怎麼看這個用電缺口？"],["卓院長榮泰：希望委員給我一點點時間，我希望透過這個時間向委員說明。核三廠1號機今年7月、2號機明年都會除役。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，2號機明年5月17日。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，現在……我是說假設，即使要延役的話，我們也要經過很長安全檢查的程序，汰換裡面檢查出可能的一些機組設備零件，所以在3年半到5年當中，核三廠1號機、2號機是不可能發電的。所以5年後它能不能發電還是一個問題，5年後的狀況不是我們面對今天這些問題可以解決的。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點我也要提醒院長，其實我們的核能發電機使用年限只有歐洲及美國的一半，歐洲及美國的使用年限是我們的一倍多，所以變成其實它的使用年限是可以再增長的，為什麼我們不趕快把它檢查，現在你就可以決定，現在是關鍵的時刻，我們國家正面臨有可能要迎接AI產業高耗電的時刻，有沒有考慮在綠能達標之前先用核電來補足這個缺口呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：細部問題，我請郭部長再回答，我只跟委員報告，40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了它的年限就是這個樣子，那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則，現在我們要延役，也要照核管法的規定，5年前提出延役的準備，現在已經過了那個時間，所以依法我們就是把它停下來。"],["張委員嘉郡：就是希望說……假設院長有這樣子的想法的話，我相信不管是藍綠白都會大力地支持，只要院長願意，我覺得修法的問題是次要的，反而是對於國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應，這一點也希望院長可能記在心裡，希望對國家最有利的方式，我們可以回歸理性、專業的討論，也拜託院長記在心上。我想部長是從產業來的，他也一定會去做專業的評估，就拜託院長及部長好好地思考一下，因為本席真的不希望我們臺灣的競爭力就錯失在用電供應不足，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長常常跟我們說，安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的，我們一樣要把這個事情做好，讓部長說明一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在是這樣子，我們撇開這個法的問題來講，現在的核二、核三，確實你把它降載，你一定要先停、檢查，檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟，不能用、有危險，它就不能用，因為安全是我們第一個考量。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，當然。"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，我們之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象，所以我們到2030年……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以是有考慮要重啟核能的？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有備案在。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以，部長，你現在是在告訴本席說，其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們什麼事情都可以考量，事先就可以考量，但是以目前，我們是沒有辦法在2030年，就是說在五年內是沒有辦法使用核能，如果它可以使用，我們也沒有辦法使用。"],["張委員嘉郡：這一點，大家可以再好好來討論，希望可以找出好的辦法，因為這個缺電的問題其實影響的不只是產業，也影響民生，而且下至每一個人民，上至整體臺灣的未來。所以這一點希望院長跟部長可以記在心上，然後趕快去面對這個問題，而不是粉飾太平說我們沒有缺電問題。實際上，本席看到的包括上一次跳電，我們的備載容量只剩下3%，只剩下3%就要迎接全臺大停電了，台電跟上一任的經濟部長還在說完全沒有問題！完全沒有問題！甚至還一再否認說他們有在準備要跳電的問題，我覺得我們真的應該是好好地用專業去判斷、用理性去判斷這件事情。","接下來，我想要請教院長的是國土計畫法。我想這個國土計畫法，院長這幾天已經聽到都耳熟能詳，可能也已經聽到有點膩了，但是院長，2025年國土計畫法就要上路了，雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一，請問院長知不知道國土計畫法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃？"],["卓院長榮泰：120萬。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地的有多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：8.9萬。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，將近全國最高，是全國劃第一名的縣市，而且雲林縣農1、農2的土地合計八萬八千多公頃，面積真的是超乎……如果以人平均農地責任額來說，我們是臺北市的638倍，您覺得這合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣，所以它的農地也多，各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多農業產品。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們的確是農業大縣，但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊，我們不想要我們的農民變成世代農奴，而且假設說種田賺不到錢的話，你把農地都劃了，但是大家都不回去種田，你到時候徒有農地、沒有農民，你要怎麼保障糧食安全呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們希望臺灣均衡發展，像剛剛委員所提到的，在雲林科技園區的發展，就是未來雲林再轉型，但是雲林的土地中當作農業使用，它一定有它的傳統。未來還是要維持一定比例的土地，但是轉型的過程當中，需要更多的協助。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以院長，本席也想要提出，希望國土計劃法可以暫緩實施，因為目前來說，細部規劃不只是雲林縣，全臺灣很多縣市都有疑慮，所以希望可以把細部都討論完善之後再來實施，因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良，儘量按照國土署的標準，結果農業部對於某些縣市就比較通融，像屏東縣本來對於私人土地，像我們提出私人土地要劃為農2，這樣農業部就不同意，但屏東縣只要是私人土地都可以劃為農2，原本屏東要劃4萬公頃的農1，最後只劃了4,000公頃，這個農業部也同意，但雲林要劃設1,500公頃的農2卻被農業部打回票。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，你剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息，因為……"],["張委員嘉郡：你不要再說是我有誤解！我們來看這個公文……"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候，我們都針對……"],["張委員嘉郡：我們沒有誤解，我覺得是你行政有偏差，院長，你同意他這樣說嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在農業發展地區，我們依照國土計畫的內容……"],["張委員嘉郡：屏東也是啊！屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：各個縣市應該都是標準一致，不會有特定獨厚哪一個縣市。"],["張委員嘉郡：就這個公文來說，院長，包括部長本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的權限，但是針對我們要劃設農2的部分才1,500公頃，可是這個回函裡面卻說因為沒有通過審查會議，所以無法作為劃設的依據，不准我們將交流道附近的這個區域劃成農2，而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的，這就叫作尊重地方劃設的權限嗎？不能理解的是，在細部規劃都沒有明確之前，為什麼要著急推動呢？可不可以緩一緩呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，由內政部來答復你。"],["劉部長世芳：我先跟委員回復一下，好嗎？國土計畫法的實施，對於農民的權益，還有農地變更的部分完全沒有改變。"],["張委員嘉郡：是怎麼樣沒有改變？"],["劉部長世芳：所以合法農地的保障……"],["張委員嘉郡：哪裡沒有改變？我已經聽過部長講了好幾次，其實我也好奇，部長說農民的權益沒有改變，農地的使用沒有改變。"],["劉部長世芳：合法農地的權益也沒有改變，如果你要改變的話，不管是農1變成農2或者其他的部分，可以透過5年的通盤檢討，或是相接計畫的發展，所以這個部分，雲林縣政府在4場說明會的時候都非常清楚所有的程序。"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在要求的是標準全國要一致，全國要一致才公平。"],["劉部長世芳：全部一致，你所提到的屏東縣政府是24年前的法律。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為雲林縣目前在進行國土計畫第三階段功能分區的劃設，雲林縣現在也要比照屏東縣的標準，所有私人土地都劃設為農2，農業部會不會再打回票呢？這一點我也希望部長可以回答。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，因為目前是縣市政府主導規劃的，縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會，我們都會去參加，而且會表……"],["張委員嘉郡：我只說一句，不可能那麼巧，不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農2的標準吧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律，跟現在106年所推動的國土計畫法完全不一樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：我希望部長不要再有誤解。院長，你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳區分圖嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：目前就我們所知道，大概只有4個縣市政府是有困擾的，4個縣市政府有困擾。"],["卓院長榮泰：目前只有3個上繳。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前只有3個繳交區分圖，期限是6月30日以前，為什麼大家都不繳？明年就要實施了，全國只有3個縣市繳……"],["劉部長世芳：因為時程還沒有到。"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，可不可以延後實施呢？有沒有考慮要延後實施呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，現在上繳的只有3個縣市沒有錯，但是內政部有一一去徵詢其他的縣市，目前所知應該是只有4個縣市表示它有困難，其他縣市我們希望能夠如期報上來。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上，我不是不理解，內政部長也很努力，但是我真心希望你們不要急就章，我們不是在找你們麻煩，我們只是希望這件事情的實施，不要造成民眾的困擾。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["張委員嘉郡：如果可以再審慎研議、緩一緩，就算你緩一年、緩兩年，我們再把它討論的更周延一點，對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸，也不會實施了之後又問題一堆，所以我真的要特別拜託院長，也要拜託部長，可以體諒民眾，就算他知道他的權益不會受損，他也會擔心，你知道嗎？因為他不理解會不會有他不懂的地方，所以是不是能夠辦更多的說明會，讓他們更理解之後，再來實施呢？這一點會不會有困難呢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，針對劃為農業發展區的部分，他只要從事農業，權益完全不會變，而且能享受更多的……"],["張委員嘉郡：到底哪裡不會變呢？是不是可以邀請兩位部長到雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢？因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變，跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，剛剛部長說過，他們有辦過4場說明會……"],["劉部長世芳：我們有44場跟雲林縣政府的說明會。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是我告訴你，你如果去做民調，雲林縣有80%以上的農民對這件事情都不理解。"],["劉部長世芳：那是因為有錯誤訊息的傳達，所以造成農民的誤解。"],["張委員嘉郡：我是不是可以邀請兩位部長來說明，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們現在透過……"],["張委員嘉郡：你們兩位部長親自來說明，我相信你們一定有辦法把它一一地說清楚。本席沒有反對，我只希望在你們說明白之前，可以暫緩實施好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民權益受損的是哪一些地方，我們可以根據實例來做說明，謝謝。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為我的時間有限，這一點我希望是不是可以邀請你們，院長可以指示兩位部長到雲林來辦說明會嗎？我們可以把所有的村里長、所有的農會、所有的農民代表都邀請來，好好地跟他們說明清楚，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，現在我已經請地政司邀請其他的農民團體來參加，我們的國土署每一場都會參與。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。本席還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念，在國際上已經行之有年，而且是廣泛實施的制度化概念，源自於英國發展權轉移的概念，即Transfer of  Development Rights（TDR），在美國馬里蘭州，甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度；簡單來說，某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額，就必須要給予相對性的補償，以兼顧農地所有權人的權益，這才是發展農業的長久之計。在巴黎協定當中，已開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償，也是類似的概念，不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣的概念？"],["卓院長榮泰：農業部已經實施一段時間的對地綠色補助，就是朝這個方向、這個理念在進行。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長想的跟我們所提的農業權概念是有一點點不一樣啦！所以這一點本席也希望，目前我們是有提出一個方案，即每公頃40萬的補貼，但是細部的部分，如果院長覺得這個概念是可行的，數字的部分我覺得是可以討論……"],["陳部長駿季：我可不可以跟委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：希望農民權益可以獲得保障，否則就像我剛剛講的，農民空有農地，如果種田都種不活、沒有辦法溫飽，他怎麼會繼續去種田呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，國土計畫法是讓全國的土地有效、合理地運用。"],["張委員嘉郡：是！這是我們共同的期待。"],["卓院長榮泰：所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一致，我們不會獨厚哪裡。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，特別……"],["卓院長榮泰：再來，他如果真的有需要，5年還是可以再檢討的。至於剛剛說的農業對地補助，我們希望在現在的基礎上面，我們好好地把它執行下去，也要考慮到很多財政相關的問題，這個也請委員支持。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這就是我接下來要講的，有關於院長在說AI創新之上要加上民主元素，訂一套民主AI基本法。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯，AI不能去侵害人權。"],["張委員嘉郡：對！可以看出院長想要傳達行政團隊對於民主體制、民主原則是非常尊重、非常注重的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們共同追求的目標。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法，如果民主的反義詞是集權，現行財劃法就是一個集權的財劃法，為什麼這麼說呢？因為我們上一次修法是25年前，25年前為了精省，我們重修財劃法，在修法以前，中央跟地方的財源大約是60比40，在修法之後，就變成75比25；在那一次的修法，地方失去了15%的財源，院長覺得把財源集中在地方自治的落實是有利，還是不利呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各個地方去，兼顧到地方的需求，所以這麼多年來，我們補助給地方的金額是越來越多、越來越多，以後也是朝這個方向去想。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們是不是也給院長看一段影片，好不好？我們來看一下當時的賴清德市長跟賴清德行政院長是怎麼說的呢？","（播放影片）"],["張委員嘉郡：其實當初的賴清德市長跟賴清德行政院長，他是非常體恤民情的，我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣，當時您是擔任行政院秘書長，您應該也很清楚他苦民所苦的心，他也是支持地方自治的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以當時沒有辦法繼續走，就是因為垂直分配、水平分配的問題，但是，即使在那個之後，中央對地方的各項補助，包括長照、包括前瞻、包括統籌分配款。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你還是在講一個集權概念嘛！就是說中央要去補助，為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢？因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊！對於中央集權的這個概念……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果照現在的計算方法……"],["張委員嘉郡：為什麼要把財源都攬在中央呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：那只有多的越來越多，少的不會更多啦！如果照現在提出的……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以每個縣市都希望院長關愛的眼神……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定是在均衡臺灣的理念下做到平衡的……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以希望院長可以支持財政收支劃分法重新討論，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，我們下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢，我們現在休息。","休息（12時25分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":29,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1135701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":3.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3.45659375,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.27034375,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.109718750000003,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24.12846875,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":26.69346875,"end":31.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":31.75596875,"end":32.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":33.173468750000005,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":34.40534375,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":37.409093750000004,"end":40.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":41.087843750000005,"end":42.150968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":42.252218750000004,"end":44.243468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":44.74971875,"end":48.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":48.69846875,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.60909375,"end":53.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.55346875,"end":74.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":62.924093750000004,"end":63.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":74.92221875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":79.52909375,"end":81.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":82.43159375,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":113.12721875000001,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":114.62909375000001,"end":124.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":118.02096875000001,"end":118.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.73346875000001,"end":122.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.23096875,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":148.80096875,"end":160.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.77534375000002,"end":150.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":153.76221875000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":160.57971875,"end":195.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":196.70909375000002,"end":198.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":198.53159375,"end":199.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":199.93221875,"end":201.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":202.27784375000002,"end":203.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":203.99909375000001,"end":205.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":205.88909375,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":209.68596875,"end":259.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":259.77096875,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":263.06159375000004,"end":267.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":265.00221875,"end":265.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":268.52909375,"end":270.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":271.07721875000004,"end":271.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":271.95471875000004,"end":279.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":277.87784375,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":279.73409375,"end":284.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":282.58596875,"end":2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但是很多爸爸媽媽在替小朋友抽公幼還是抽不到不曉得院長有沒有朋友跟你反應過說欸怎麼辦抽不到欸怎麼樣都抽不到公幼有沒有"},{"start":149.404,"end":164.179,"text":"欸過去蠻嚴重那現在這個情形稍稍有舒緩但是政府的各項的措施包括公托準公托的這個設施還要繼續的強化精進沒錯就是目前就讀私立幼兒園的學生數是38.5萬佔比67.6%那讀公幼的"},{"start":169.364,"end":169.604,"text":"當然我們會持續的"},{"start":198.598,"end":226.675,"text":"在各地方徵定這個相關的公共化的這個幼兒中心讓大家需要的爸爸媽媽跟小朋友都能夠有一個更好的學習環境是這個我們都共同的期待那在公幼銜接上需求之前本席建議院長是不是可以考慮先提高育兒津貼跟托育補助因為目前現行的育兒津貼而言第一胎每個月只有五千塊"},{"start":227.495,"end":227.935,"text":"﹚張嘉郡﹚張嘉郡﹚"},{"start":247.907,"end":258.756,"text":"的這個補助來做修正來修正這個補助那當然這個物價指數大幅提高超過警戒值的時候希望我們行政院可以有所因應"},{"start":259.95,"end":260.65,"text":"拜託院長特別關心"},{"start":281.076,"end":296.524,"text":"財政衡量容許的範圍當中盡量鼓勵也盡量照顧。繼續願意來幫助這些有小baby的家庭,然後也鼓勵更多的年輕人願意生小孩。謝謝院長。接下來院長最近最夯的議題就是有關於AI產業的發展。國家的半導體產業跟AI產業的發展是一個關鍵時刻,尤其台積電、輝達等大廠都相繼想要擴廠、設廠。"},{"start":309.69,"end":309.81,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":331.095,"end":331.115,"text":"﹚台湯"},{"start":359.059,"end":359.299,"text":"中科二期擴大。"},{"start":386.28,"end":407.877,"text":"首先我們都非常感謝黃仁勳執行長他的喜愛夜市讓臺灣的美食揚名世界那我們會繼續把我們的夜市做得乾淨漂亮而且衛生營養再就是輝達公司在內湖的總部目前使用的狀況他已經接近相當的這個飽和之中了"},{"start":408.317,"end":433.35,"text":"那他會尋求各地方但是這個除了他公司的產業的布局選擇之外我們也希望他選擇台灣的任何一個地方我們都能夠提供最好的公共服務基礎設施的服務那但是這樣世界的大廠要選擇在哪裡他現在還沒有做明確的規定明示底下我們現在只能是等待他做好更多的地方的選擇跟調查"},{"start":434.813,"end":450.337,"text":"當然但是本席剛剛第二個問題就是說我們現在中科二期擴大現在沒有說現在已經拿到用水同意函用電同意函跟用地同意函已經進入到土地變更的這個期程在之前呢"},{"start":451.077,"end":474.652,"text":"經濟部是一直都非常支持目前需要農業部儘速地把變更土地核定下來我們就會跟上台積電明年要設廠的期程這一點可不可以拜託院長督促農業部儘速地來審查我們的土地變更案呢?初步計畫審查通過現在是取得用地的階段"},{"start":476.713,"end":497.098,"text":"用地已經同意了,我們已經拿到了臺堂的用地同意函。臺堂的部分沒有問題,現在是私人土地,那邊有一個高爾夫球場。我們沒有高爾夫球場,你弄錯了。中科二期在湖尾。我們全部都已經送到農業部,要等待農業部審查,所以希望農業部可以儘速審查。"},{"start":506.48,"end":527.699,"text":"各位報告,就是有關於相關的這個專案,如果說整個院的專案合定了以後,農地的變更是一個程序,我們一定會配合。是,拜託部長可以盡速的來審查完成,因為這不只對雲林縣很重要,對台灣未來的發展也很重要,因為中科二期擴大雖然只有32.8公頃,但是它連結,"},{"start":531.923,"end":559.74,"text":"這個寶中土庫東勢整個台塘的農場1600公頃放眼未來50年假設AI產業跟半導體要繼續深耕在臺灣的話它上下有整合有充沛的土地包括我們雲林縣有湖山水庫包括海水淡化廠包括我們有吉祺蘭河縣的這些水我們有充沛的用水用電包括我們有充沛的這個太陽能光電跟再生能源等等"},{"start":560.14,"end":560.18,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":586.072,"end":588.593,"text":"經濟部也是一樣,當然行政院長整合以後我們一定是全力支持。"},{"start":608.327,"end":616.916,"text":"當然AI產業是我們重大的產業發展的方向。對於AI產業的發展,院長認為我們目前最大的挑戰是什麼?"},{"start":621.674,"end":643.428,"text":"應體的設施跟軟體的加強之外應該是要跟世界各個進步的國家跟廠商都合作但是最重要還是要培育我們足夠的人才是人才是一個很大的需求那當然用電上面我是說全國的用電上面也是一個很大的問題前幾天我在經濟委員會已經問過了部長"},{"start":645.649,"end":666.669,"text":"就是說AI的伺服器耗電量是傳統伺服器的3至20倍在美國CHART GPT每天要消耗56萬度的電相當於我們臺灣夏季用電每天4萬戶的這個用電院長你覺得我們有辦法負荷得起嗎?"},{"start":667.618,"end":682.018,"text":"國部長幾次談過臺電對現在用電的評估到2030前我們還是手上握有相當的餘裕但是要針對高科技的發展現在政府更必須積極的去拓展更多的多元的能"},{"start":682.318,"end":682.398,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":700.453,"end":727.608,"text":"是。當然在生能源、綠能這些本席都非常非常的支持。我覺得這是一個全世界的趨勢。但是院長有考過考慮過以核養綠嗎?有沒有考慮再把核三或者是核一、核二把它重啟呢?就是核三因為核三今年就要除役了。那可能會有一個6至7%的這個用電缺口。院長怎麼看這個用電缺口?"},{"start":729.912,"end":758.827,"text":"我希望透過這個時間也向委員說明河山廠一號機今年7月二號機明年都會除役。對,二號機明年5月17。現在現在我是說假設即使要研議的話我們要經過很長的安全檢查的程序。是。汰換箱裡面檢查出後的可能的一些機組的設備零件。所以我們在3年半到5年當中河山廠的一號機二號機是不可能發電的。"},{"start":759.907,"end":779.85,"text":"所以5年後的問題他能不能發電還是個問題但5年後的狀況不是我們今天面對今天問題可以解決的這一點我也要提醒這個院長啊就是說其實我們的核能這個發電機我們的使用年限只有歐洲跟這個美國的一半"},{"start":780.45,"end":780.49,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":808.78,"end":810.702,"text":"我只跟你們報告40年前我們設核電廠的時候就規定了它的年限就是這個樣子"},{"start":822.625,"end":838.418,"text":"那個是政府跟人民的信賴保護原則現在我們要研議也要照核管法的規定五年前提出研議的準備那現在已經過了那個時間了就是希望說假設院長有這樣子的想法的話我相信不管是藍綠"},{"start":840.76,"end":857.435,"text":"拜都會大力的支持只要院長願意我覺得修法的問題反而是次要反而是我們國家現在面臨的挑戰我們要怎麼樣一起去因應這一點也希望院長可以記在心裡因為這個國家最有力"},{"start":858.095,"end":884.819,"text":"希望對國家最有利的這個方式我們可以回歸理性專業的這樣子的討論這一點也拜託院長記在心上那我想部長他是從產業來的他也一定會去做一個專業的評估這一點就拜託院長跟部長好好的思考一下因為本席真的不希望說我們台灣的這個競爭力就錯失在我們的這個用電供應不足"},{"start":885.359,"end":903.03,"text":"部長常常跟我們說安全穩定供電是我們共同關注的我們一樣要把這個事情做好讓部長說明一下報告委員現在這樣就是說這個我們撇開這個法的問題來講的話現在那個核二核三他確實"},{"start":904.266,"end":924.188,"text":"你把它降載你一定要先停檢查檢查完了以後可以用才有辦法開啟不能用有危險它是不能用因為安全是我們第一個考量那我跟委員報告就是說我們考慮之前就已經考慮這樣一個現象所以我們到2030年"},{"start":925.649,"end":950.767,"text":"所以是有考慮要重啟核能的,所以部長你現在是在告訴本席說其實你心中是有重啟核能的備案是嗎?我們什麼事情都可以考量,事先就可以考量,但是以目前我們是沒有辦法在2030年就是說在這個5年內是沒有辦法使用這個核能,如果它可以使用我們也沒有辦法使用。"},{"start":951.363,"end":966.905,"text":"這一點大家我們可以再好好來討論希望可以找出好的辦法因為這個缺電的問題其實是影響不只是產業也影響民生而且是下至每一個人民"},{"start":967.426,"end":967.626,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":993.277,"end":993.657,"text":"﹚張嘉郡﹚"},{"start":1008.314,"end":1008.354,"text":"國土計劃法"},{"start":1027.611,"end":1045.817,"text":"但是呢,院長目前2025年國土計劃法就要上路了。雲林是受到影響最大的一個縣市之一。請問院長知不知道國土計劃法裡面預計全國農地的總量是多少公頃嗎?120萬。但是你知道雲林縣被劃為農地有多少嗎?8.9萬公頃。"},{"start":1057.774,"end":1082.719,"text":"是將近全國最高是全國化第一名的縣市而且雲林縣農一農二的土地合計8萬8千多公頃面積真的是超乎如果說以人平均這個農地責任額來說我們是臺北市的638倍您覺得這合理嗎?"},{"start":1083.632,"end":1103.859,"text":"所以我們說雲林縣一直是我們心中的農業大縣所以它的農地也多各方面的條件就是提供臺灣人民很多的…我們的確是農業大縣但我們也想朝農工商高科技並進的城市努力啊我們不想要說我們的農民變成世代農奴而且假設說種田"},{"start":1105.299,"end":1111.981,"text":"所以我們希望台灣均衡發展像剛剛委員所提到的在雲林那個科技園區的發展就是未來雲林再轉型但是雲林的土地當作農業使用它一定有它的傳統未來還是一定維持一定的比例的土地但是轉型的過程當中需要更多的協助"},{"start":1133.146,"end":1160.22,"text":"所以院長本席也想要提出就是說希望這個國土計劃法可以暫緩實施因為目前來說系部規劃不只是雲林縣全台灣很多縣市都有疑慮所以希望說可以把系部都討論完善之後再來實施因為目前可能是我們雲林縣人比較善良盡量按照這個國土署的標準"},{"start":1160.56,"end":1160.6,"text":"﹚張嘉郡"},{"start":1181.701,"end":1184.645,"text":"我跟委員報告齁,您剛才講的是一個錯誤的訊息喔,因為...你不要再說是我有誤解,來"},{"start":1201.344,"end":1225.405,"text":"這個部分是在各縣市國土審議委員會的時候,我們都...我們沒有誤解,我覺得是你行政有偏差。院長你同意他這樣說嗎?報告委員,在農業發展地區啊,我們依照他的國土計畫的內容...屏東也是啊,屏東也是一個農業發展地區啊。各個縣市應該都是標準一致啊,不會有特定讀後來的縣市。就是這個公文來說,就是院長,"},{"start":1226.666,"end":1247.896,"text":"包括部長他本身都說會尊重地方政府劃分的這個權限但是針對我們要劃設農惡的部分才1500公頃這回函裡面說因為沒有通過審查會議所以無法作為劃設的依據不准我們將交流到附近的這個區域劃成農惡而且這些審查依據是農業部提供給內政部的"},{"start":1249.477,"end":1260.962,"text":"那這些就叫做尊重地方畫色的權限嗎?不能理解的是這是在細部規劃都沒有明確之前呢為什麼要著急推動呢?可不可以緩一緩呢?"},{"start":1261.601,"end":1264.144,"text":"國土計劃法的實施對於農民的權益還有農地的變更的部分的完全沒有改變。所以說核保的農地的保障,核保農地的。"},{"start":1280.464,"end":1281.325,"text":"我現在要求的就是說標準"},{"start":1300.583,"end":1301.123,"text":"我跟委員報告"},{"start":1323.656,"end":1345.692,"text":"因為現在目前是縣市政府主導做規劃的那縣市政府召開的國土審議委員會我們都會去參加而且會表我只希望說一句就是說不可能那麼巧吧不可能那麼巧屏東所有的私人土地都剛好符合農惡的標準吧報告委員你現在所說的屏東縣的部分是24年前的法律所以呢我希望說部長不要再讓我誤解院長你知道目前有幾個縣市上繳這個區分圖嗎"},{"start":1352.077,"end":1374.669,"text":"目前就我們所知道大概只有四個縣市政府是有困擾的,所以是只有三個,目前只有三個繳交區分圖,期限是6月30以前,為什麼大家都不繳?因為明年就要實施了全國只有三個縣市繳,院長可不可以延後實施呢?有沒有考慮要延後實施呢?"},{"start":1375.089,"end":1375.889,"text":"基本上呢我不是不理解說內政部長也很努力"},{"start":1392.114,"end":1392.294,"text":"謝謝委員：張嘉郡"},{"start":1408.354,"end":1431.895,"text":"在審慎的研議你緩一緩就算你緩一年緩兩年我們再把它討論得更周延一點對於行政機關其實才是一勞永逸你不會說實施了之後你有問題一堆所以這一點我真的是要特別也要拜託院長拜託部長可以體諒說民眾就算他知道"},{"start":1432.295,"end":1433.076,"text":"我跟委員報告,就是針對"},{"start":1449.755,"end":1451.317,"text":"到底哪裡不會變呢?是不是可以邀請兩位部長到我們雲林縣來跟我們的農民做說明呢?因為你現在在這裡跟我說不會變"},{"start":1464.813,"end":1467.716,"text":"跟農民的理解是完全有落差的。"},{"start":1489.136,"end":1494.241,"text":"我希望委員可以告訴我們實際例子上對農民的權益受損的是哪一些地方?我的時間有限,我是不是可以邀請"},{"start":1511.596,"end":1520.102,"text":"院長你可以指示兩位部長到雲林來說明會嗎?我們可以把所有的村里長啊,所有的這個農會啊,所有的這個農民代表都邀請來好好的對他們說明清證這裡嗎?好,好,那我們謝謝。那本期還要再提一個有關於農業權的概念喔。"},{"start":1533.812,"end":1550.704,"text":"就是說在這個國際上已經行之有年而且是廣泛實施的一個制度化的概念這是源自於英國發展權轉移的一個概念Transfer Development Rights在美國馬里蘭州甚至紐澤西州都有類似的制度"},{"start":1551.064,"end":1576.596,"text":"那簡單來說就是說某些縣市必須背負更多的農地責任額那就必須要給予相對性的一個補償以兼顧農地所有權人的權益這才是發展農業的這個長久之計那在巴黎協定當中以開發國家對發展中國家做的氣候補償也是類似的概念不曉得院長有沒有聽過這樣子的一個概念"},{"start":1577.761,"end":1599.362,"text":"農業部已經實施一段時間的對地的綠色補助就是朝這個方向這個理念在進行就是部長想的跟我們所提的這個農業權的概念是有一點點不一樣所以這一點本席也希望說目前我們是有提出一個方案就是每公頃40萬的這樣的補貼但是細部的部分"},{"start":1602.645,"end":1603.406,"text":"跟委員報告一下。"},{"start":1625.82,"end":1639.811,"text":"國土計劃法是讓全國的土地有效合理的去運用,所有的劃分全國各縣市標準一次,我們不會讀後哪裡。再來就是它如果真的有需要5年還是可以再檢討的。"},{"start":1640.572,"end":1661.8,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":1664.701,"end":1690.513,"text":"對,可以看出院長想要傳達出行政團隊對於民主體制民主原則是非常尊重的這是我們共同追求的目標沒錯,但本席想要請教的就是財政收支劃分法了如果民主的反義詞是極權呢那我們現行的才化法就是一個極權的才化法為什麼這麼說呢因為我們上一次修法呢就是25年前"},{"start":1691.493,"end":1693.114,"text":"中央的想法是財源一定要平均分配到各地方去。"},{"start":1720.052,"end":1721.073,"text":"有人有錢嗎?可以做事情。"},{"start":1743.871,"end":1749.699,"text":"所以非直轄市的問題非常嚴重所以我們要開始來規劃財政收支劃分化"},{"start":1754.608,"end":1774.275,"text":"是,所以呢其實當初的賴慶德市長跟賴慶德行政院長他是非常體恤民情的我相信他現在擔任總統也是一樣的當時您是擔任行政院秘書長您應該也很清楚他就是苦民所苦的這樣子的心他也是支持地方自治的是不是?"},{"start":1774.935,"end":1800.405,"text":"所以當時沒有辦法繼續走,就是因為垂直分配水平分配的問題。但是即使在那個之後,中央對地方的各項補助,包括長照,包括全災,包括共同分配款。所以你還是在講一個極權概念嘛,就是說中央要去補助,為什麼不直接劃分給地方呢?因為地方自治就是檢驗民主政治是否真正落實的重要基準啊。對於中央極權的這個概念,為什麼要把這個"},{"start":1804.366,"end":1806.268,"text":"謝謝張嘉郡委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會上午的質詢到此為止,我們下午2點30分繼續開會。"}]}},{"id":"154042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154042","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c018506cc5bfe0f1da8eb5b353bd30599155422287167d06ffe8d38f9d5c79002bdd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:38:26 - 11:55:02","影片長度":"00:16:36","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T11:38:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T11:55:02+08:00","duration":996,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":996,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時38分）謝謝主席，我們請卓榮泰院長，還有文化部部長，還有財政部部長。"],["主席：再請卓院長、兩位部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好！"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝院長，還有兩位部長。我想最近有人挑起了一個所謂天馬電台的議題，這是我們地方的痛，因為在102年我用了很多的心力，透過質詢，好不容易把我們中央電台的天馬電台移到褒忠電台，這塊土地就完全歸我們國產署所有，所以這盡了很多的力量，在102年正式遷臺到褒忠，然後開始了所謂的招商，最開始我們期待魏導在這裡做一個所謂影城的規劃，他也有來做說明，我們滿心期待，但是最後不見了；然後我們有所謂的沙崙影城也不見了；然後魏導要移到後壁，也不見了，都不見了；再來又有所謂的明華園要來，也不見了。也就是說，當時招商他們必須負擔相對價值，他們要做文化，因為這一塊就是文創產業專用園區，所以文化產業本身必須投注很多心力，但是收到的效益不一定是高的，相關單位卻要求必須對等回饋，所以沒有辦法達到。光是到天馬電台做說明會，在本淵寮朝興宮普庵祖師前面開公聽會、說明會就有三次了，結果最後都不見了。從102年正式遷台到現在就是一片荒蕪，這是我們的痛，但是最近有人故意挑起說延宕13年。延宕13年是誰延宕？是地方政府跟中央政府，因為是地方政府跟中央政府一起開發、一起合作，但是放給我們地方的是荒蕪一片。我們不斷地說服地方，畢竟地方跟中央都是民進黨執政，我也是民進黨的立委，我們不斷地說服他們給地方、給政府時間，但是拖延到現在，也有人用延宕13年的說法，所以是誰延宕？地方政府跟中央政府。","再來，我們必須說，現在經過這一段時間，土地原本是臺南市政府管理，現在又歸還財政部。我們看到的是，106年魏德聖這麼大亮點不見了，不斷這樣子拖延，明華園也是亮點，也不見了，到了107年，最後由臺南市政府管理，現在又歸還財政部。好，現在問題來了，現在我們要透過市政府安南區的六通做土地變更，我要拜託部長全力配合，我們希望是整體開發，沒有整體開發就沒有辦法有亮點。如何規劃土地，不論是商業區未來怎麼做亮點經營，然後土地有部分來到市政府做一些回饋？我相信都應該全力配合市政府。這個拜託部長，OK吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，確實天馬電台這一塊土地有29公頃，相當大，國產署也曾經跟臺南市政府合作，就如同委員講的，我們合作開發，但是後來因為一直都沒有招到適合的做這樣的用途，所以現在約已經解了，交回國產署。目前臺南市政府正在通盤檢討，看看這一塊土地的都市計畫要做怎麼樣的變更。"],["陳委員亭妃：它要做113年的六通。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，就國產署來說，只要這一塊土地能夠更好地運用，而且對地方的發展有助益，我們一定會全力協助配合。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們希望財政部全力配合，因為這時間實在拖延太久了，我們不斷催促。我要拜託部長，現在荒蕪一片，現在雜草一堆，因為六通到底要到什麼時候才能有結果不知道，在還沒有開發之前是不是可以先委由市政府，我們絕對會把所有環境整理一下，讓社區可以使用，這太大了，你知道嗎？這邊實在是有夠髒亂，你們要趕快處理。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，這個部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分再拜託。"],["莊部長翠雲：在還沒有運用之前先做怎麼樣的短期運用，我們再跟市政府一起討論。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，這個再拜託一下部長。","另外，我們要再談到另外一個議題，國家語言發展法在2018年12月25日三讀通過，這也是我們一直在推的，要講臺語──我們自己的母語，所以國家語言發展法在2018年12月25日三讀通過，2019年7月1日台語台在公視正式成立。","我們現在要推的就是台語文化園區，這在過去我們都有進展、有一個步調，因為彰化剛好在它建縣三百年的時候設立了台語創意園區，相對的今年剛好是臺南建城四百年，而且臺南縣市合併就是透過文化。過去我們都一直在推動，一步一步地從國家語言發展法通過、台語台通過，現在時間已經到了，我們應該要成立自己的文化園區。","現在我要跟部長拜託，因為對於臺南，沒有人比我更瞭解它整個地理環境，我跟你報告，第一，有人說天馬電台，但現在天馬電台的土地還是未知數，它未來要怎麼開發，不知道；市府要怎麼規劃，不知道！土地是未知數，因為這是國有財產局的。第二，臺南文化創意產業園區，剛好在火車站旁邊，這塊目前是由南臺科技大學委外，到118年9月30日委外才到期，但是它還有優先營運權。所以這塊雖然是文化部的土地，但還是未知數。","現在我把整個適合設置的地方跟部長報告，第三個地方，有一個地方叫「臺灣歷史博物館」，臺灣歷史博物館總共有幾公頃？20公頃，扣除滯洪池、綠帶及二期擴建所需，實質土地建坪也只有5.5公頃，20公頃只有做5.5公頃。但是這個部分如果做為台語文化園區，能夠結合歷史、文化、文學，它變成人家說的會「結市」，喜歡歷史的、喜歡文化的、喜歡文學的都來到這裡，土地又是文化部的，我們馬上編經費就可以做了，這樣是不是很適當？這個部分我也跟市政府討論過，我們不能去說一個無法掌控的東西，因為未來六通之後，土地、都市計畫要怎麼計畫我們不知道，而且最快的速度，我們如果看通盤檢討，這個院長就很瞭解了，院長也從基層上來，通盤檢討若要有結論，3、4年，5、6年，那算是有夠快了。所以你今天要用一個需要通盤檢討的來做這個部分，未知數、遙遙無期！","因此我跟部長建議，因為我過去在教育及文化委員會，我們就一步一步從國家語言發展法到台語台，現在時間到了，台語文化園區在彰化是中部，南部也要一個，這樣才會串連，改天北部也要一個，北、中、南都有台語文化園區。尤其彰化使用的就是成功砲校的營區，如果是用我們自己既有的土地，這樣的話文化部剛剛好，所以部長，我覺得這是我們可以考量的地方。尤其台語文化園區若跟臺灣歷史博物館結合在一起，是不是很好？而且它是我們的門面喔！國道一下來，然後剛好是這個門面，能夠再接到山海圳綠道，這樣串連起來，說我們臺灣的歷史、說我們臺南的歷史，我們有台江，尤其安南區的十六寮、台江的文化，內海、外海串聯起來，我們可以因此說一個我們臺灣人的故事。部長，這才有意義啦！對不對？部長，你覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員剛才講的那幾個點，其實我個人就在安南區做千里步道，剛才講的山海圳就是我們發起做為千里步道的一個起點。你剛才講的那幾個點，我會在最快時間內去看，因為剛才講的天馬電台那一區我沒有看過，另外這幾個地方我再……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為天馬電台現在就是荒蕪一大片，30公頃，荒蕪一片！"],["李部長遠：我承諾委員，我會在最快時間去這幾個點看過以後，把它構想出一個未來我們做得到的……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為土地最重要嘛！土地沒有問題你才有辦法提經費，你絕對不能拿一塊完全不能掌控的地方，等規劃做好了，最後卻無法付諸實施。所以土地如果是文化部的，我們就可以馬上編經費啊！如果院長支持，就可以立刻編經費啊！北、中、南各有一個台語文化園區是不是很漂亮？院長，OK不OK？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員對文化的用心跟設想了這麼多的地點，剛剛李部長已經表示，他會在近期內去看看哪一個地方將來適合做怎麼樣的使用。另外，關於天馬電台現在如果土地這麼大，在我們沒有辦法即刻活化使用的情況底下，我也要求財政部國有財產署一定要把環境整理好，不要成為地方人民的嫌惡設施。"],["陳委員亭妃：對於天馬電台現在的髒亂，我拜託一個月給我們答復，看要怎麼處理。地方今天有人把這個痛再挖起來，那我們就直球對決了啊！再拜託我們的部長！","另外一個議題就是台61線、曾文溪跨海大橋如何銜接到86號快速道路的部分。院長，這個部分一定非常重要，因為曾文溪大橋好不容易在林全院長任內，我當時就在這個地方質詢他，那是蔡英文總統第一任的時候，林全院長在這裡，他馬上答應曾文溪大橋OK，現在曾文溪大橋也在進行當中了。現在曾文溪大橋要銜接86號快速道路，要拜託我們的院長啊，一定要加速！現在確實也在規劃，因為這太重要了！如果可以從外環道銜接，這一條比什麼都還重要啊！這樣子根本就不用再把車輛引流到濱海，濱海都塞車啊！如果可以從曾文溪大橋直接銜接到86號快速道路，我相信這樣一個便捷，還有未來我們要發展所有的科技甚至產業就絕對都沒有問題。我們這裡有臺南科工區，還有新吉工業區，未來七股工業區還有南科，這一段對於曾文溪大橋銜接86號快速道路期待非常高啊！這部分我們有什麼計畫要快速處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，有關這一條長達47公里的重要延伸道路，現在正在聽取各方面最後的綜整意見，交通部……"],["陳委員亭妃：現在在做可行性研究？"],["卓院長榮泰：交通部已經有一個初步的構想，我請交通部再跟委員做報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們知道現在在做可行性，可是中間有很多關卡。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：光是安平港這個環帶當中要怎麼突破很多包括我們過去的嫌惡設施，我們為了要綠能發電那裡有很多的設施，可是這些現在要怎麼突破？就是我們過去都沒有一體性的研究嘛！這邊怎麼辦？現在在做可行性沒錯啊！預計113年底要完成，好，我們會如同現在所做的？這個是我們地方一直在追的！可以完成嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：這個部分目前是8月份就會提方案出來。"],["陳委員亭妃：8月份提出方案？"],["李部長孟諺：我們也會希望先跟地方政府妥為溝通，以靠海邊的最適方案來提出。"],["陳委員亭妃：8月份就會提出來了？"],["李部長孟諺：嗯。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為你們預計的綜合規劃時程是2年，二階環評是4到5年，然後建設計畫又1年喔！光是這個，你知道……"],["李部長孟諺：就是路線在8月份先提，要有共識……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯啊！所以……"],["李部長孟諺：如果有共識，就會繼續……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你前面路線如果拖的話，後面就一直拖了喔！這樣你們的時程表可能10年都看不到喔！我覺得要加速啦！這個時間點大家沒有辦法接受，因為這一條太重要了！對於所有產業的發展，太重要了！謝謝。"],["李部長孟諺：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":29,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1135701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SP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道嗎這邊實在是有夠髒亂的這個我覺得你們要趕快去處理好這個部分在還沒有運用之前先做什麼樣的短期運用我們再跟市政府一起來討論那另外我們要再談到另外一個議題"},{"start":358.735,"end":373.7,"text":"我想國家語言法發展,整個在2018年12月25日三讀通過,這也是我們一直在推的。講台語啦,但是我們自己的母語,所以國家語言發電話在我們2018年12月25日三讀通過。"},{"start":378.842,"end":394.089,"text":"兩千公一九年七月七日﹐台藝台在公司正式來成立。我們現在要推的﹐我們現在要設的﹐就是《台藝文化恆久》。這對過去﹐我們都有一個進展﹐有一個補貼﹐因為我們中華到底已經關三百年時﹐設立了《台藝文創意恆久》。"},{"start":405.251,"end":423.397,"text":"相對定的．年多乎咱台南四百當更是四百當．且台南官司合併就是用文化。對過去其實咱們一直在推搪一步一步對咱國家議員發電話通過、台議代通過．現在已經夠時間應該咱要上一次咱自己的一個文化恆久。好,我現在要給咱部長拜託"},{"start":433.752,"end":449.976,"text":"部長,我給你報告,因為台南沒有人比我更了解他的地理環境。我給你報告,第一,有人說天馬電台,但是現在天馬電台,土地還是未成熟。他未來要怎麼開發不知道,市府要怎麼規劃不知道,土地未成熟,因為這是國有財產局的。"},{"start":459.899,"end":463.942,"text":"臺南文化創意三逆分枯．大地火車站的旁邊．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．．"},{"start":486.038,"end":490.242,"text":"我現在把整個所在社會可以設的 給我們部長報告。"},{"start":491.923,"end":513.849,"text":"第三個地方,有一個地方叫臺灣列宿博物館。臺灣列宿博物館總共有幾公頃?20公頃。20公頃依靠著我們的志鴻池,還有我們的綠帶,還有日記、科研的需要。其實在我們的土地建培,建培也只有5.5公頃。20公頃只有做5.5公頃。"},{"start":518.51,"end":540.874,"text":"但是這個部分我們如果要把它做為臺語文化分割﹖可以把它結合﹖律師文化文化的結合﹖它會變成人家說的結詞﹖加以律師﹖加以文化﹖加以文學﹖都來到這﹖土地跟我們文化保衛﹖我們馬上變經濟就可以做這樣﹖這樣是不是很失動﹖因為這個部分我也跟市政府討論過﹖"},{"start":548.496,"end":551.204,"text":"我們不能說一個我們沒辦法講的東西,因為在土地、未來、"},{"start":557.379,"end":558.94,"text":"﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃"},{"start":583.905,"end":596.358,"text":"遙遙無期所以我跟部長建議臺語文化園區因為我過去在教文化園我們就一步一步從我們的國家語言發展法到台語臺現在時間夠了"},{"start":600.461,"end":602.642,"text":"部長,我覺得這是我們可以考量的地方"},{"start":627.641,"end":627.941,"text":"﹚陳亭妃﹚"},{"start":643.986,"end":659.414,"text":"這串連,講咱的臺灣的歷史,講咱台南的歷史,咱有臺港有幾安南過的16條,臺港的文化,來海外海,串連起來,咱可以因此講一個咱台南的故事。"},{"start":661.36,"end":684.573,"text":"部長這才有意義啦對不對部長你覺得呢這個其實謝謝委員剛才講的那幾個點其實我個人就在安南區做千里步道剛才講山海郡就是我們發起作為一個千里步道的起點那你剛才講那幾個點我會在最快時間去看因為剛才講那個天馬天海那一區我沒有看過那另外這個"},{"start":686.427,"end":703.517,"text":"因為天馬電台現在就是荒蕪一大片,30公頃的荒蕪一片。我承諾委員我會在最快時間去這幾個點看過以後,把它構想出來。因為土地最重要嘛,土地要沒問題,你跟我說做經費嘛。你絕對不可以蓋一塊,我們完全不可以將空的地方,這樣整個做好了,搞不好不可以走。"},{"start":712.202,"end":713.042,"text":"委員長：陳亭妃"},{"start":728.428,"end":751.627,"text":"謝謝委員對文化的用心跟設想了這麼多的地點那剛剛李部長已經表示他會近期內去看看哪一個地方將來適合做什麼樣的使用那另外關於天馬電台現在如果這個土地這麼大那我們沒有辦法能夠即刻的活化使用情況底下我也要求財政部國有財產署"},{"start":752.829,"end":757.91,"text":"環境一定要整理好,不要成為地方人民對他產生嫌惡的錯誤的地方。"},{"start":758.41,"end":787.536,"text":"我拜託這個天馬電台現在的髒亂一個月給我們答覆看怎麼處理。等一下有人把這個桶再挖起來那我們就直球對決啦我們再拜託再拜託我們的部長那我現在另外一個議題就是我們台61線台61線我們的曾文熙快速大橋如何銜接到86快速道路的部分我想院長這個部分"},{"start":788.496,"end":809.968,"text":"一定非常重要因為我們的專門家大橋曾文熙大橋好不容易在林全院長我當時有質詢他也是就在這個地方當蔡英文總統第一任的時候林全部長在這裡他馬上答應了曾文熙大橋OK現在曾文熙大橋也在進行當中"},{"start":810.848,"end":811.509,"text":"﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃"},{"start":830.582,"end":858.95,"text":"這樣子根本就不用再把所謂的車子引流到我們的濱海那些濱海都太扯了如果可以從我們的曾文熙直接到86我相信這樣的一個變節還有未來我們要發展所有的科技甚至產業絕對就都沒問題了我們這裡有說有台南科工區還有新集工業區未來七股工業區還有南科"},{"start":860.01,"end":877.884,"text":"這一段對於這一條所謂的曾文熙大橋銜接86攜帶非常高啊。這部分我們有怎麼計畫要快速處理。報告委員這條長有47公里的重要的延伸道路現在正在聽取各方面"},{"start":878.82,"end":885.283,"text":"現在在做可行性研究。現在我們知道現在在做可行性,可是中間有很多的關卡。光在岸邊港,我們這個環台當中,要怎麼突破很多,包括我們過去的嫌惡設施。"},{"start":904.053,"end":905.854,"text":"﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃﹚陳亭妃﹚"},{"start":935.984,"end":938.107,"text":"這個部分目前從8月份會提出方案,也會希望這次提出方案,地方政府可以公投方案,靠海淺比較最適合。"},{"start":945.978,"end":973.611,"text":"八月份就會提出來了我們期待因為你們現在預計你們預計是在這個綜合規劃的時程是兩年然後二屆環評是四到五年喔然後建設計劃又一年喔你光這個你知道沒錯啊所以你前面路線如果拖的話後面就一直拖囉這個如果你們的時程表可能早上就看不到了"},{"start":986.996,"end":991.757,"text":"謝謝陳亭妃委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請張家俊委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c01852960bd71766e390b5b353bd30599155422287167d06ffe8db8e2350fbdd246935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:56:26 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11:27:15","影片長度":"00:30:49","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T10:56:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T11:27:15+08:00","duration":1849,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":781,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時56分）謝謝我們敬愛的主席（我們韓院長）、行政院卓院長所領軍的團隊、新聞界的朋友、各位同仁，以及我們所有的學生、參訪人員。楊瓊瓔發言，主席，本席想要邀請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長好，恭喜你。"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢當。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們首先來看我們的孩子，因為投資教育希望永遠在，這是我非常堅持的一個理念，所以守護學童、安全校園，我們看到目前全國裡頭大概有400個校園急需要跑道的整修，但是我們看到也聽到賴總統說，體育暨運動發展部，他希望、明確提出來要成立，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在努力，也希望大院能夠協助一起把這個組織法來調整，將來可以上路。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，組織法調整就表示大家看到這個問題點是重要的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那我們有共識喔！所以我們看到未來你們預計編列200億的預算，對不對？但是我們看到你目前所編列的大概一年2億，這樣要花多少年的時間才可以去應對呢？所以我現在告訴你，目前我們盤點後大概有400個學校是急需要、迫切需要的，在這樣的情況之下，如果一個操場以1,000萬大概的平均值來計算，大概需要40億的經費，如果一年跑道只有2億的話，等於要編列多少年啊？等於要編列20年，所以你預計要成立體育暨運動發展部的時候，每一年要編列在多少的項目之中？本席要具體建議，既然我們大家都有共識，要重視我們的教育發展、體育發展，你們是不是應該要提供一個安全的操場，讓孩子去體育、去活動，讓家長放心，請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，要成立這個專責的體育部會，也是希望能夠把體育向下落實、扎根，增強國力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以總統有一句話說，希望國人健康，國家更強，世界擁抱臺灣，國人健康是第一要務……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個口號非常好！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是從過去到現在，對於很多學校在興辦體育設施的更新當中，過去有一段時間我們用了很多的前瞻基礎建設，但是也有很多應該是地方自治事項，如果中央、地方能夠合力針對不同的學校、不同的體育設施分別來處理的話，這個時間會更短，而且將來在體育部成立之後，我想我們會用另外一種視野跟眼光來看體育部相關的預算。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你希望時間更短，你聽到本席的精髓，如果一年只有2億的補助，400個學校就要20年，20年當中又有其他的學校產生，還是要協助，所以你有聽到精髓，時間要縮短。所以本席具體建議，應該要編列專案預算給校園操場修繕，你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會看國家的財政狀況跟地方怎麼來配合。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你同意，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：往這個方向努力……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：往這方向努力……"],["卓院長榮泰：總是希望小孩子的體育教育能夠更好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你可以大膽一點說，你同意往這個方向來努力……"],["卓院長榮泰：大方向大家都會同意，但細部計畫還要好好規劃。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們兩個在詢答，所以卓院長，我可以解讀你是同意要以專案方式來協助這些操場的修建、布建，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：大方向都同意，但是用怎麼樣的方式，這點中央、地方可以來處理，而且將來預算編列也要有它的精神……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，方向同意，我也希望你要去執行。接下來本席請問你，有關幼兒學童，我看到學校周邊環境的一個問題。臺灣都市計畫內所有的人行道總長度是八千公里，但目前完成的只有五百多公里，占比達不到7%，在這樣情況下達不到7%，我們甚至被CNN封為人間煉獄。我們看到一個兒童問題，針對12歲以下兒童，每一年都有死傷的統計數字，我實在不忍心講出來，但是平均有超過25名兒童因為交通事故而傷亡。針對這問題本席要建請卓院長，孩子都是我們的寶貝，所以怎麼樣才能讓他安全？尤其在少子化的現在，對於傷亡數字的增加你憂不憂心啊？憂不憂心？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：憂心！既然憂心，我們就要好好把周邊環境布建好，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：應該要加強。如同剛才所說的數字與年限，所以經費要增加，年限要縮短，趕快來建構一個安全……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，行人跟學童的安全我們會列入現在即將要做的工作當中，交通部已經有相當完整而清楚的計畫，如果容許的話請交通部……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：昨天本席也親自到交通委員會跟部長討論這個問題，部長也意識到這問題是需要加強的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你預計要怎麼做？要縮短時間，趕快布建，讓我們的兒童得以安心，好不好？讓家長安心，兒童安全，請將書面資料給本席好嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：是，簡單跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教。好不容易立法院藍、綠、白的委員都同意，前任行政院院長陳建仁先生以及前任的衛福部薛部長都同意，而且預計要在今年編列預算，即編列明年度的預算。所以這個畫面很難得，藍、綠、白及全國家長聯盟共同支持HPV疫苗施打。早期邱部長有跟我們一起奮鬥到，早期因為經費問題，所以我們從國中的女生開始打。這是當初所給的條件，我努力執行到位，請卓院長聽清楚。也就是說，如果女生有達到九成，那麼我們願意讓國中男生也一起施打，因為只有單邊，只保護女生還是不夠的。因此，前任行政院長跟前任衛福部部長，以及現任的邱部長（當時的邱立法委員）都非常支持。所以本席要請教，在大家有共識，我們即將成為亞洲第一個男女共同施打的先進國家，保護我們孩子的前提下，請教院長現在編列預算的進度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我也記得陳前院長曾經答應要研議，當女生達到90%之後，就會往男生這邊再研議……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你當立法委員時應該有參與到。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以衛福部會接續陳前院長這樣的決定，繼續做一些準備工作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也就是同意編列預算，讓男生一併施打。我們會非常光榮，因為總統說我們要有什麼？我們要做健康憲章，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，健康憲章。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以兩個議題請教，大家有共識，非常好，也就是大家努力的成果，女生達到9成以上之後，男生必須要執行之，要編列預算，成為亞洲區第一個保護我們孩童、男女共打HPV疫苗的先進國家。所以我兩個議題請教，第一個，請問卓院長，我們的健康憲章什麼時候會出來？第二個，我們的預算編列多少？請教。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們在健康臺灣的論壇當中已經講到，在健康臺灣的這個議題當中，健康憲章是一個頂重要的，這個過程……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候會出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛接手的衛福部一定要馬上再進行相關的研議……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個「馬上」是多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我請衛福部說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我可以讓邱部長說。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，我想健康憲章是我們健康臺灣……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我時間，好嗎？你預計你們的KPI什麼時候可以出來，然後向國人報告？"],["邱部長泰源：健康憲章的草案其實已經都大概草擬的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：告訴我時間點，好嗎？什麼時候可以告訴國人？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個出來以後可能還要經過更多專家討論，因為resolution是不簡單的事情，但是如果……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以我只要院長告訴我一個時間點，是年底還是第三季，什麼時候可以出來，讓國人瞭解？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我剛剛說過，健康臺灣的論壇是集全國所有的醫學專家……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：過程本席非常的清楚……"],["卓院長榮泰：先做出這樣的結論……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教，你們有沒有KPI？什麼時候你的健康憲章會出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：出來之後，這是一個非常審慎的工作，必須再跟社會做對話……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以我願意給你時間，你告訴我時間點嘛！新政府要有新作為啊！什麼時間？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長說明，他的草案已經大概具備，我們必須再跟社會做對話，對話當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：對話當中會有多少時間再做一些折衷……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教，今年年底會出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員給衛福部更多時間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請教邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，像WHO現在在研擬大流行病協定，本來1年就要出來，現在3年了，到今年WHA還說要延長1年，所以表示對社會的對話……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，沒關係，我們做任何事情，卓院長……"],["邱部長泰源：但草稿部分，我想我們1個月出來是沒有問題的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1個月出來草稿，院長，我謝謝你們，我們一定要好好努力做，但我們希望我們新政府做事情還是要有KPI的指標，大概什麼時間出來？現在邱部長給我一個答案，1個月內會出來草案，草案之後，大概什麼時候，今年年底會不會出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是還要跟社會做對話……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：邱部長，有沒有這個信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們努力讓它盡快的實現，但是社會的意見我們要尊重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，邱部長，你有沒有設定你自己的KPI時間點？"],["邱部長泰源：我想健康憲章這個部分，我們以前做過太多，很多地區都有，像北投也有健康憲章……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在不是邱立法委員，你現在是邱部長……"],["邱部長泰源：全國的健康憲章要跟全國……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你想一想，沒關係，請把書面資料給本席，至少你回答本席健康憲章的草案1個月內會出來，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來怎麼樣正式，你再書面資料給本席。"],["邱部長泰源：我們把草稿提出來會跟各界討論，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二個議題，HPV疫苗的預算，男生施打疫苗的預算，這個沒有多少錢，請問編了沒？編了沒？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：非常感謝，因為HPV對男生的預防現在真的是很重要……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教，你現在是部長，請政策回答，預算你編了沒？"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在正在編擬預算當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有將這個項目納入嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會積極來研議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼研議？剛剛院長都講了啊，都同意了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，兩句話，第一個，我們現在在執行今年度的預算，新的團隊現在在對明年度的概算……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要編列明年度的預算嘛，你會把它納入，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年度的概算我們還沒全面檢查、檢驗過，我們現在在執行今年度的預算，明年度的概算還要7月底的時候才會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席非常清楚，這個過程本席非常清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個時程就是這樣排的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要不要而已啦，院長，會不會編入？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請衛福部研議，照陳前院長指示。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：照陳前院長的指示就是同意喔，他說他要編列喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：他說研議看什麼時候做到什麼程度。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以要編列，明年度我們希望看到這個預算。"],["邱部長泰源：我們研議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝邱部長，我向你感謝，我們都是共同奮鬥，連卓院長當時是立法委員，我們藍、綠、白都全部合作，所以我們希望能成為亞洲第一個男女共同施打的先進國家，你頻頻點頭，我希望你在編列明年度的預算時納入，甚至在今年如果有預算就可以開始執行，至少明年度預算要編列，OK嗎？會執行吧？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會全力來研議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全力研議就是全力執行，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為公共衛生的議題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛卓院長要做你的後盾了，你是在怕什麼？院長已經說了，照陳前院長的指示啊，他的指示你也參與到啊，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會照陳前院長的指示研議，但是我剛剛也跟委員報告，明年度的概算不是我們編的，我們現在進到概算的程序當中去檢視。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。邱部長，你聽到卓院長的支持，我們務必要編預算，成為亞洲第一個，編出來之後預算通過，我們來開一個記者會……"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們全力往這方面來努力，我們全力往這方面來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：讓臺灣在世界上的醫療能夠發光發熱，好不好？尤其在講孩童，我相信你一定做得到的。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我要談電的問題，院長，我非常敬佩郭部長，郭部長講了真心話，他說對於台電用公務預算去撥補，他不太贊成，當然他率性的回答，現在大家都非常支持郭部長，因為郭部長會講真話，而且他是真正在解決問題，他來自產業，我們支持。但是在我們支持之餘，還是要解決問題，在賴總統擔任行政院長時曾經說過，在2017年的時候他說2025年我們的能源配比是再生能源20%等等等，但是王美花部長告訴我們是跳票的，我也在經濟委員會請教郭部長，我問他我們現在要怎麼辦？沒關係，你們承認2025年原先的能源配比是跳票的，我們積極趕快鼓勵再加油，這是我們非常誠意的鼓勵政府。再生能源的部分原本是說20%，你們預計要調降到15.5%，我們也都給予鼓勵，但是其中有個問題，也就是沒有加入AI，瞬息萬變，我也感謝郭部長願意在這個會期7月16號結束之前針對我們的需求電力會給國人一個報告，因為原本111年所說的需求是3,045億度，這是111年，而112年還沒出來，告訴我們2027年的時候會達到3,045億度，可是當時還沒有加入AI，所以郭部長非常誠意的說給一點時間，因為又加入了AI，瞬息萬變，所以我非常敬佩郭部長的坦白，而且願意面對問題、解決問題。","本席有兩個議題要請教，第一個，也就是我們的能源配比在加入AI的導入之後，我們的總量跟能源配比什麼時候會告訴社會大眾？這是第一個。第二個議題，您的好朋友童子賢先生也說了，如果沒有加入核的部分，2050年淨零家園是達不到的，你聽到了吧？你也點頭。所以在這樣的情況之下，會不會考慮非核家園的調整？就這兩個議題，請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個議題等一下請您尊敬的郭部長來回答。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：至於非核家園，現在依照環境基本法，我們還是要依法朝向非核家園，能夠安全供電、穩定供電是政府的要務，我們必須在安全穩定供電的前提下，發展更多的綠能，我們說展綠、增氣、減煤到非核，這個就是步驟。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個都是目前在做的，所以本席告訴你，賴總統擔任行政院長時說的跳票了，我不希望你的回答、你的宣布又是跳票，人民騙一次就夠了，不要再騙了！我們也願意，因為瞬息萬變，我希望我們理性的討論，也希望得到答案，請問會不會調整非核家園？如果AI的用電量很大的話。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，現在科技的進步，有些事情在多少年前是難以預測的，但是我們的法律規定就是朝向非核家園的目標進行，在這個法沒有改的情況下……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你是一個有能力的人，不要再拿法律來搪塞！今天政府如果需要，法律可以修，對不對？你如果沒有相關的配套，一再的以法律來搪塞，等於當時所設立的通通都跳票了，我們找誰算帳啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這不是拿法律搪塞，我是說在法的規定下，我們用更多的方式，包含展綠、增氣、減煤，這個方式我們都要做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的好朋友童子賢董事長也給你真心的建議，我們現在請郭部長來回應。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想大家關心的是會不會缺電，我先跟你報告結論，到2030年我們是不會缺電的。我們為什麼這麼講呢？就是我們已經務實的考量用電的需求，2023年到2030年我們的需求大概成長700萬瓩，我們現在的大型機組會淨增910萬瓩。但就如您剛才指導的，我們可能因AI致用電量暴增，所以我們現在正在考量要用280萬瓩作為估算的標準，那280萬瓩要說一次跳掉，這個機率其實幾乎等於零，但是我們還是放寬了電的容量。所以我們有兩個方法，第一個就是用儲電來滿足……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席了解，先插斷你的話。你要用ESCO的概念，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要用ESCO的概念，所以，本席還是要請教您，你現在信心滿滿，我也期待在7月16日以前，你告訴我們總電力以及你的能源配比，這是我非常關心的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也希望，卓院長，到時候經濟部長所公布的，不可以再跳票，就像我說的，嚇一次就死了，不可以再嚇第二次。所以本席還是要請教院長，政府告訴我們，2027年我們的用電是3,042億度，但是並沒有包括AI，在這樣的情況之下，我們的年用電量是不是會提早衝破3,000億度？大約時間點或落點在哪裡？111年度告訴我們的是2027年，現在加上AI的導入，會不會提早衝破3,000億度的需求量？請講。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在的用電需求成長率是2.2%左右，未來我們預期整個科技的發展會有更大的需要，所以剛剛……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以會提早嘛，會提早……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長已經講到，會用科技儲能跟發展多元綠能等等來處理……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以換句話，你這個回答也就是會提早衝破3,000億度，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個沒有辦法現在做預估的數字。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有，你轉頭看看你的部長，他一直在點頭，他是專業的……"],["卓院長榮泰：那可能會是一個預估，那我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你轉頭過去看看。"],["卓院長榮泰：我常常看他。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。所以我們也希望能夠為產業、為民生的用電安全。","接下來，政見要落實，除役要規劃，台中火力發電廠，我們真的好辛苦，我們也為社會大眾貢獻良多，因為我們當地民眾的健康是我們的寶貝，我們一定要好好顧著。所以，我要請教院長，你提出的這個健康憲章，我一直希望追出來，也就是中火陸續除役的規劃是五年還是十年？因為我們自己有一套減煤方案，每一年燃煤量要遞減，是在臺中市議會通過的，所以我希望政府幫我們規劃，中火除役的規劃是什麼時候，五年還是十年？你做一個完整的報告，然後把書面資料給本席，我們一起朝著這個方向，讓我們臺灣的電、臺灣的能源能夠更加的安靜、乾淨好嗎？書面資料給本席。"],["卓院長榮泰：只跟委員報告一句話，十多年來，臺中的空污量已經減幅65%以上了，當然這部分還要繼續努力……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我們都很努力，但是還不夠，我相信……"],["卓院長榮泰：未來以氣換煤的機組會繼續的增長，所以情況應該是更好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。就是因為會更好，所以我希望縮短時間，你認同嗎？所以你把規劃給本席，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會考慮到安全穩定供電，至於對環境的影響，我們把它降到最低。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：安全穩定供電，你要先把我們人民的安全、健康要留住啊，這是最重要的，好吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以對空污的影響，我們會想辦法把它降到最低。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你補充這一點，不然，我真的要給你打「X」了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你補充這一點。請把書面資料給本席，中火的除役，你的預計計畫表，請書面資料給本席。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，人民守護民主，我相信這是全臺灣人民最重要的。民進黨不分區的第二名沈伯洋先生說了，到底這是真的假的？他說高風險族群包括在大陸做生意，或者是大陸有來往的人，院長，這是真議題、假議題？這是真議題、假議題？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個社會在討論的議題，但是到現在，真正的結論還是要再經過大家共同對於事實狀況的研判。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果依照沈伯洋先生所說的，那你卓揆內閣裡頭……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就會增強國家安全的考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我會緊張喔，你聽喔，我們鄭副院長的先生沈先生，他也在東莞做生意；我們的郭部長，他生意做得這麼好，他也在大陸有很多的分公司；如果照他的規劃裡頭，我們國發會的劉主委是IBM大中華地區供應鏈諮詢服務的負責人，他是這方面的專家；如果照沈委員的說法，院長，你也去過大陸兩、三次嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！那這些人都是危險分子，而且是高危險分子，可以這麼認定嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沈伯洋委員的定義絕對不是這樣子的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他是這麼說啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他不是說去到中國、跟中國有任何往來的人就是所謂的第五縱隊，絕對不是這樣的定義。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那他的定義是什麼？那臺灣到底有沒有第五縱隊？"],["卓院長榮泰：他一定是受到某種目的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個第五縱隊的認定，請教是個人立場、政黨立場還是政策立場啊？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：那一定是有目的、有企圖心的特殊行為，對國家造成傷害，那才會是我們應該去防範的潛在性危險。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為他說在高風險族群裡頭，請你注意聽，宮廟危險最低，黑道、陸配在中間，村里長、立委和大學教授是最高風險，你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我尊重委員各種言論上表示出來的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你尊重他，但是你聽起來，你認為臺灣可以如此嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣有臺灣的問題跟現象，因為兩岸之間的敏感性……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺灣的民主可以有這樣子的說法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有我們遇到的問題跟現象，包括所有的國安團隊持續都在重視這樣的現象，我們的責任就是在防範讓它不會成為嚴重的威脅。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺灣當然是一個民主國家，講什麼都可以，但是如果任意的、惡意的貼標籤，會危害到臺灣的民主，也會危害到臺灣整個的安全度，你認不認同？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然希望在尊重每個人的言論自由之外，尊重個人的人權保護、言論自由的保護都要同時並進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都要同時並進嘛！院長，所以你要小心喔！因為這是你們貴黨的不分區立法委員所說的，真的是讓人民人心惶惶，讓那些教授都人心惶惶，你看可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所有委員的提醒，我們都會很慎重的當作很重要的事情來做研判。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，很慎重，所以我也認同你的很慎重，但是務必不要再製造人民的恐慌，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是要讓人民安心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我做一個結論，所謂的第五縱隊，在你目前執政的政府是沒有這回事，可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有不同潛在的威脅，但是不一定要用這樣的名稱來涵蓋這些不是在定義裡面的人，所以我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以是不認同的嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是要針對國家的安全負責任。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，國家的安全非常重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：像陸委會每天的問題就會很多，主委也知道，問題就會很多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以也就是這樣子的說法造成人民的恐慌、不安心，這樣是不可以的，院長，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以政府要讓人民安心，我們會做到讓人民安心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就你講的政府要讓人民安心，我就希望你要注意，不要再隨意的讓人民恐慌，好嗎？這是第一個。接下來我要講的是我們的產業，我們都非常希望臺灣一級棒，臺灣的隱形冠軍太多了，臺灣的發明，臺灣在全世界裡頭真的是不得了，最近在AI進來這5個、全世界首富前10名，都是我們臺灣欸！我真的是感動得不得了，太光榮了！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：完全對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：完全對，而且我們的中小企業……"],["卓院長榮泰：我前幾天到會場去也有相當的光榮感。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，我也跟郭部長講，我們除了AI、除了科學之外，我們的中小產業、臺灣的產業是首重要照顧的，院長，對不對？對不對？你連這個都不敢回答！我們的中小企業、在地的產業，我們的政府要全力的支持他們，對不對？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，不僅是中小企業，我們連中小微企業都不希望在這個AI轉型的過程當中受到傷害。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以像所謂的以大帶小，這個概念非常好。本席要請教，我們很榮耀，因為我們在亞洲地區是科技創新最快的，可是我們看到全球創業投資執行長所發布的5個國家裡面沒有我們，怎麼回事啊？有印尼、有越南、有日本、有韓國、有印度，不管人才，他都講別人，怎麼沒有講到我們臺灣？這是怎麼回事？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們繼續努力啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說繼續努力，有什麼方案？人家已經公布，竟然沒有我們！部長要回答也沒關係，我們要怎麼樣協助這些產業，讓他們可以看得到？這是非常重要的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為國外的大廠來臺灣是要用我們的人才，我們現在是說臺灣的人才因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對問題，郭部長，你現在所謂的人才，本席知道，你說要培養20萬人，然後18萬人是在工廠裡頭，而高階的，你給他的比例是50%、50%，這個本席非常清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我要跟院長講的是，世界的評比沒有看到臺灣，我很憤慨，我們這麼好，怎麼會沒有我們呢？所以我請院長你要努力、你要努力，不要只有自嗨，我們要努力，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：一起努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一起努力。接下來最後一個議題是危險邊坡，我們陸續發生了這些事情，從四級、五級、六級、七級，這些次數我都不忍心講。院長，我請你組專案，這是人民安全的問題、這是人民安全的問題，你必須組專案去解決、協助這些問題，因為沒有生命就什麼都不用講了，一走過去坍下來就完蛋了，對不對？我看到你的臉色慢慢的沉重起來。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不會？那表示你有信心。"],["卓院長榮泰：看到這種危險的地方，當然我們會感同身受。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：至於具體的措施、細部措施，交通部從過去到現在已經有相當的措施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：李部長，你也是專家，我提出國土安全的問題，邊坡這麼危險，我希望你把書面資料給本席。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你去盤點，因為我們經過921，我們的中橫還沒有通，我們都很緊張，好不好？因為中橫通，我們臺灣全部都通，這是務必要做的，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：針對包括像高鐵、臺鐵、高速公路跟一般的省道公路，有各種邊坡，我們現在都有監測相關的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：努力去做，因為它的數字我不忍心講出來，你把書面資料給本席。","院長，最後一個功課給你。本席在經濟委員會擔任召委，超思的蛋案到昨天為止，我們也到現場考察，竟然告訴我們沒有合約，甚至不是統統從超思來，大家傻眼了，你組這個專案來告訴國人、告訴國人好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會澈底去瞭解，不容許！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時38分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":29,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1135701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.68471875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.835968750000001,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.74534375,"end":22.407218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.14971875,"end":24.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":32.27909375,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.98784375,"end":34.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":34.557218750000004,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.70909375,"end":51.837218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.88784375,"end":53.845343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.064718750000004,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":64.42596875000001,"end":70.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.53909375,"end":92.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":74.28096875,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.60721875,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.19534375,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.32346875,"end":152.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":152.93534375000002,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":154.08284375000002,"end":157.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":158.11596875,"end":164.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.52471875,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":164.61284375000002,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.35909375,"end":169.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":168.49409375000002,"end":169.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":170.16471875000002,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":178.28159375,"end":180.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":180.99846875,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":184.99784375000002,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.81471875000003,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.15159375000002,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.88909375,"end":218.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":219.79409375,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.92846875,"end":224.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":224.94096875000002,"end":225.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":225.32909375000003,"end":229.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.51034375,"end":233.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":232.65284375000002,"end":234.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.93534375000002,"end":237.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":234.88034375,"end":236.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.54659375000003,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.49534375000002,"end":248.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":248.12721875000003,"end":254.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.17346875,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.17721875,"end":255.0290937500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tart":372.115,"end":390.148,"text":"接下來本席要請教律法院好不容易藍、綠、白的委員都同意。在前任的行政院院長陳建仁先生以及我們前任的薛部長魏吾普都同意。"},{"start":390.828,"end":419.657,"text":"而且預計要在今年編列預算編列明年度的預算所以你看到這個畫面很難得藍綠白全國家長聯盟共同來支持的這個政策也就是HPV的疫苗當時早期我相信邱部長早期也跟我們奮鬥到早期說因為經費的問題所以我們從國中的女生開始打"},{"start":420.077,"end":444.189,"text":"﹚楊瓔"},{"start":444.309,"end":444.549,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":469.775,"end":498.388,"text":"我也記得陳前院長曾經提議答應說要延役當女生達到90%之後往男生這個在延役那現在所以現在就是衛福部會接續陳前院長這樣的決定繼續還在做一些就同意要編列預算男生一併打我們會成為一個非常光榮因為總統說了我們要有什麼呢我們要做健康憲章對不對"},{"start":500.048,"end":528.096,"text":"是的,健康憲章所以兩個議題請教大家有共識非常好也就是大家努力的成果我們女生達到九成以上的男生必須要執行之編列預算成為亞洲區第一個男女共打保護我們孩童施打HPV疫苗的先進國家所以我兩個議題請教第一個我們的健康憲章卓院長什麼時候會出來第二個我們的預算編列多少請教"},{"start":528.902,"end":546.935,"text":"第一個,我們在健康台灣的論壇當中已經講到深化這個健康台灣這個議題當中,健康現障是一個頂重要的。什麼時候會出來?衛福部,剛接手的衛福部一定要馬上再進行相關的營運。這個馬上是多久?衛福部說明。我可以讓邱部長您說。"},{"start":548.204,"end":553.226,"text":"請告訴我時間好嗎?你預計你們的KPI什麼時候可以出來給國人報告?告訴我時間點好嗎?什麼時候可以告訴國人?"},{"start":568.279,"end":589.848,"text":"因為這個可能出來以後還要經過更多專家討論當然所以我只要院長我只要你告訴我一個時間點是年底還是第三季什麼時候可以出來讓國人了解報告委員這個我剛剛說過健康台灣的論壇之極全國所有的醫學的專家先做出這樣的結論出來之後這是一個非常審慎的工作"},{"start":598.111,"end":598.772,"text":"拜託委員一下,像我們"},{"start":616.086,"end":616.426,"text":"沒關係,我們做任何事情,總院長。"},{"start":631.189,"end":653.249,"text":"一個月出來炒稿院長我謝謝你們我們一定要好好努力做但是我希望我們新政府做事情還是要有KPI的指標大概什麼時間會出來現在邱部長給我一個答案一個月內會出來炒案那炒案之後大概什麼時候今年年底會不會出來"},{"start":655.049,"end":682.041,"text":"我們就是要跟社會做對話,我們努力讓它盡快的實現,但是社會的意見我們要尊重。好,邱部長,你有沒有設定你自己的KPI時間點?我想健康憲章這個部分我們以前做過太多,像每一個地區也有健康,像北投也有健康憲章。部長,你現在不是邱立法委員,你現在是邱部長,你想一想沒關係,你書面資料給本席,至少你回答本席。"},{"start":683.021,"end":702.061,"text":"健康憲章的草案一個月內會出來,好不好?接下來怎麼樣正式,你再順便資料給本席。第二個議題,HPAP的預算,疫苗,男生的預算,這4億多,沒有多少錢。請問編了沒?編了沒?部長"},{"start":705.559,"end":715.633,"text":"現在那個我想而且非常感謝因為HPV對男生的一個預防請教你現在是部長請政策回答你編了沒預算"},{"start":717.847,"end":718.327,"text":"我們現在正在編擬預算的當中﹖"},{"start":747.807,"end":748.087,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":768.012,"end":785.333,"text":"﹚楊瓔"},{"start":786.757,"end":802.477,"text":"會執行吧?會全力來研議。全力研議,就是全力執行,是嗎?因為剛剛卓院長在你的屁股啊,你是在嚇死了啦。院長已經說了,照陳前院長的指示啦,他的指示你也參與到啊,對不對?"},{"start":803.098,"end":821.386,"text":"我們會造成監獄長此事演繹,但是我剛剛跟委員報告,這要編的預算。我們現在不是我們編的,我們現在進到概算的程序來解釋。好,謝謝。舊副長,你聽到左院長的支持,我們務必要編,成為亞洲第一個。編出來之後預算通過,我們來開一個記者會。"},{"start":824.028,"end":845.886,"text":"讓臺灣在世界上的醫療能夠發光發熱,好不好?尤其在蔣海同,我相信你一定做得到的。接下來我們要談電的問題。電的問題,院長,我非常的敬佩郭部長。郭部長說,他講真心話,他說這個台電公共預算局博普他不太贊成。"},{"start":847.575,"end":866.933,"text":"當然他率性的這個回答所以我們現在目前大家都非常的支持郭部長因為郭部長他會講真話而且他是真正在解決問題他來自產業我們支持我們支持之餘還是要解決問題在賴總統擔任行政院長的時候他曾經說過了"},{"start":868.86,"end":884.769,"text":"他前天說過他告訴我們在2017年的時候他說2025年我們的能源配比再生能源20%等等等但是王美花部長告訴我們是跳票的所以我也在經濟委員會請教了我們的郭部長"},{"start":885.669,"end":904.662,"text":"我說,那我們現在怎麼辦?沒關係,你們承認2025年原先的能源配比是跳票的。我們積極趕快鼓勵再加油。這是我們非常誠意的鼓勵政府。所以再生能源的部分從20%你們預估要調降到這個15.5%。我們也都給予鼓勵,但是其中有一個問題。"},{"start":911.894,"end":926.538,"text":"也就是沒有加入AI訊息萬變我也感謝郭部長他願意在這個會期7月16日之前會給國人一個報告我們的需求電力因為原先111年所說的3045億度的需求度這個是111年因為112年還沒出來"},{"start":934.66,"end":963.237,"text":"那麼告訴我們是2027年的時候會超過會達到3045億度可是還沒有加入AI所以郭部長非常誠意的說給一點時間因為又加入了AI訊息萬變所以我非常的敬佩郭部長他的坦白而且願意面對問題解決問題所以有兩個議題要請教第一個也就是我們的能源配比"},{"start":963.917,"end":967,"text":"您的好朋友童子賢先生也說了如果沒有加入這個核的部分"},{"start":984.139,"end":1010.902,"text":"那麼要在2050年淨零這個家園是打不到的你聽到吧你也點頭所以在這樣的一個情況之下會不會考慮非核家園的一個調整就這兩個議題請教院長第一個議題請等一下請您尊敬的這個郭部長來回答非核家園現在依照我們的環境基本法我們還是要依法朝向非核家園"},{"start":1011.994,"end":1036.617,"text":"那要讓我們安全的供電穩定供電這是政府的要務我們必須在這個安全穩定供電的前提之下發展更多的綠能我們說展綠、蒸汽、減煤到非常這個就是步驟所以本期告訴你賴總統擔任行政院長的時候跳票了我不希望你的回答你的宣布又是跳票人民騙一次就夠了不要再騙了"},{"start":1037.698,"end":1051.554,"text":"我們也願意因為訊息萬變所以我希望我們非常理性的討論我希望得到答案會不會調整非核家園如果AI的用電量"},{"start":1053.201,"end":1072.077,"text":"現在科技的進步有些事情在多少年前是難以預測的。但是我們的法律規定就是朝向非核家園進步。院長你是一個有能力的人不要再拿法律來搪塞。今天政府如果需要法律可以修。"},{"start":1073.254,"end":1098.021,"text":"對不對?你如果沒有這樣相關配套,你一再的只有以法律來搪塞,那等於當時所設立的你通通都挑票了,我們找誰算帳啊?這不是拿法律搪塞,我是說我們在法的規定之下,我們用更多的方式,包括閃綠、蒸汽、減煤,這個方式我們都要做。你的好朋友也給你這個真心話的建議,童子行董事長。那我們現在就請郭部長。"},{"start":1099.945,"end":1117.722,"text":"報告委員我想這個大家關心的是說會不會缺電我先給你報告這個結論到2030年我們是不會缺電的那這個我們為什麼這麼講呢就是說我們已經務實的考量用電的需求那麼2023年到2030年我們這個需求大概成長700萬千瓦"},{"start":1123.929,"end":1140.47,"text":"我們現在的大型機組會競爭910萬千瓦,但就如您剛才指導的,我們可能這個AI暴增,所以我們現在在考量我們用280萬千瓦作為我們大概考量的一個標準。"},{"start":1142.349,"end":1162.879,"text":"那這個280萬千瓦要說一次跳掉這個機率其實是幾乎是等於零但是我們還是放寬了這個電的這個容量所以我們有兩個方法第一個就是用這個除電除電"},{"start":1164.904,"end":1187.6,"text":"本期瞭解差端你的話。你要用ESCO的概念。對不對?你用ESCO的概念所以本期還是要請教您。您現在信心滿滿。我也期待在7月16日以前你告訴我們總電力以及你的能源配比。這個是我非常關心。也希望卓議員長到時候經濟部長所公布的不可以再跳票。我講會怕一片就死啊。"},{"start":1188.18,"end":1211.955,"text":"不可以再下第二次所以本下還在請教院長也就是告訴我們的2027年我們的用電是3042億度但是是沒有包括AI在這樣的一個情況之下我們年用電量是不是會提早衝破3000億度大約時間點或落點在哪裡現在111年度告訴我們的是"},{"start":1213.417,"end":1219.585,"text":"2027年那現在加入AI導入會不會提早衝破3000億度的需求量?"},{"start":1220.287,"end":1246.292,"text":"請講我們現在的需求生產量是2.2左右吧那未來我們預期整個工科技的發展會有更大的需要所以剛剛部長已經講到會要科技的儲能跟發展都能多度綠能所以換句話你這個回答也就是會提早衝破3000億度對不對沒有沒有你轉頭看看你的部長他一直在點頭一直轉過來你轉頭過去看看"},{"start":1249.414,"end":1261.51,"text":"所以我們也希望能夠為產業為民生用電安全。接下來政見要落實處理式規劃臺中火力發電廠我們真的好辛苦"},{"start":1262.594,"end":1285.677,"text":"我們也為社會大眾貢獻良多因為我們當地的健康是我們的寶貝我們一定要好好顧著所以我要請教院長你提出的這個健康憲章我一直希望追出來也就是說中火陸續除疫的規劃是5年還是10年因為我們自己有一套的減煤每一年遞減"},{"start":1286.698,"end":1306.578,"text":"﹚楊瓔"},{"start":1306.718,"end":1309.519,"text":"我希望縮短時間你認同嗎?所以你把規劃給本席好嗎?"},{"start":1332.925,"end":1337.395,"text":"我們會考慮到安全穩定供電那麼對環境的影響我們把它降到最低"},{"start":1338.356,"end":1339.957,"text":"民進黨的部分區的第二名沈博洋先生他說了"},{"start":1366.598,"end":1373.886,"text":"到底這是真的假的?他說高風險族群包括在大陸做生意或者是大陸有來往的人。院長這真議題假議題啊?"},{"start":1377.543,"end":1405.746,"text":"這是真議題假議題這是一個社會在討論的議題但是到現在真正的結論還是在經過大家共同對事實狀況的研判對事實狀況如果依照沈博亮先生所說的那你走回內閣裡頭我會緊張你聽你聽我們的政府院長的先生沈先生他也在東莞做生意我們的郭部長他生意做得這麼好他也在大陸有很多的分公司"},{"start":1406.767,"end":1426.568,"text":"那如果照他的規劃裡頭那我們國防會的劉主委他在IBM這個專家在整個這個大台東地區大中華地區他供應鏈他諮詢服務他是負責人類那如果照他的說法院長你也去過大陸兩三次嗎?是"},{"start":1427.765,"end":1433.967,"text":"對啊那這些都是危險分子欸高危險分子欸可以這麼論定嗎?可以這麼論定嗎?他是這麼說啊那他的定義是什麼?"},{"start":1445.725,"end":1447.385,"text":"因為他說高風險族群裡頭你注意聽喔公廟危險最低黑道"},{"start":1474.131,"end":1502.44,"text":"陸培在中間。陳里長立委和大學教授是最高風險。你認同嗎?我尊重委員各種言論上表示出來的意見。你尊重他但是你聽起來你認為台灣可以如此嗎?台灣有台灣的問題跟現象因為台灣的民主可以這樣子說法嗎?我們有我們遇到的問題跟現象那包括所有的國安團隊持續都在重視這樣的現象我們的責任就是在防範讓它不會成為嚴重的威脅。"},{"start":1503.473,"end":1532.266,"text":"台灣當然是一個民主國家講什麼都可以但是如果危害任意的惡意的貼標籤會危害到台灣的民主也會危害到台灣整個的安全度你認不認同我們當然希望尊重每個人的言論自由之外尊重個別人的人權的保護言論自由的保護都要同時並進都要同時並進嘛所以院長你要小心喔因為這是你們貴黨的立法委員部分區的說的讓人民人心惶惶欸"},{"start":1534.221,"end":1560.17,"text":"你讓那些教授都人心惶惶,你看可以嗎?好,很慎重,所以我也認同你的很慎重,但是務必,務必不要再製造人民的恐慌,好嗎?所以我在一個結論,所謂的第五縱隊,你的安心,所謂的第五縱隊在你目前執政的政府是沒有這回事,可以這麼解讀嗎?"},{"start":1561.308,"end":1564.755,"text":"我們有不同潛在的威脅但不一定要用這樣的名稱來涵蓋"},{"start":1566.718,"end":1567.298,"text":"接下來我要講的我們的產業"},{"start":1596.55,"end":1614.226,"text":"我們都非常希望臺灣一進棒的臺灣的隱形冠軍太多了臺灣的發明臺灣的在全世界裡頭不得了了最近這AI進來這5個全世界的首戶前10名都是我們臺灣感動的不得了太光榮了對不對"},{"start":1614.943,"end":1640.363,"text":"完全對,而且我們的中小企業也有相當的光榮感。對,我也給郭部長講,我們除了AAA,我們除了科學之外,我們的中小產業,台灣的產業是所重要照顧的,院長對不對?對不對?我們的中小企業,你連這個都不敢回答。我們的中小企業在地的產業,我們政府要全力的支持他們,對不對?院長?院長?"},{"start":1642.441,"end":1661.53,"text":"是我們不僅中小企業我們連中小微企業都不希望在這個AI轉型的過程當中受到傷害所以所謂的以大代小這個概念非常好那本集要請教我們很榮耀但是亞洲地區是我們科技創新最快的可是我們看到企業創投"},{"start":1662.776,"end":1681.283,"text":"他所發布的、執行長所發布的五個國家沒有我們耶!怎麼回事啊?有印尼、有越南、有日本、有韓國、有印度!不管人才!他都講別人耶!怎麼沒有講到我們台灣這怎麼回事?繼續努力啊!繼續努力有什麼方案?"},{"start":1682.813,"end":1684.054,"text":"因為這個國外的大廠來臺灣他是要用我們的人才"},{"start":1698.323,"end":1713.634,"text":"我們現在是說這個人才齁臺灣因為我們稍微……請針對問題郭部長你現在所謂的人才分析知道你說要培養20萬人然後18萬人是在工廠裡頭高階的你給他比例50%50%這分析非常清楚但是我要給院長講的是說世界的評比沒有看到臺灣"},{"start":1719.517,"end":1745.435,"text":"我很愤慨我們這麼好怎麼會沒有我們的所以我請院長你要努力你要努力不要只有自嗨我們要努力好不好好不好一起努力一起努力接下來最後一個議題危險邊坡我們在陸續發生了這些事情從4級5級6級7級這些的次數我都不忍心講院長我請你"},{"start":1746.636,"end":1765.128,"text":"我請你組專案。這是人民安全的問題。這是人民安全的問題。你必須要組專案去解決協助這些問題。因為沒有生命什麼都不用講了。一走過去癱下來完蛋了。對不對?我看到你臉慢慢的沉重起來。"},{"start":1766.363,"end":1789.188,"text":"不是,看到這種危險的地方當然我們會感同身受。至於具體的措施,交通部從過去到現在已經有相當的作用。朱部長,你也是專家。我希望我本席提出國土安全的問題,鞭破這麼危險,我希望你把書面資料給本席,你去盤點。因為我們經過921,我們的中橫還沒有通,我們都很緊張。"},{"start":1791.929,"end":1821.418,"text":"好不好因為中文通我們臺灣全部都通這是務必要做的好不好針對包括像高鐵、台鐵、高速公路跟一般的省道、公路有各種邊坡我們現在都有監測努力去做因為他的數字我不忍心講出來你把書面資料給本席院長最後一個功課給你本席在經濟委員會大任召委超失的檔案到昨天為止我們也到現場考察"},{"start":1822.318,"end":1822.598,"text":"我們現在休息10分鐘。"}]}},{"id":"154040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c0185ee712f2bcb53250c5b353bd30599155422287167d06ffe8ddab1372d823571c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"10:40:29 - 10:56:15","影片長度":"00:15:46","會議時間":"2024-06-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-14","start_time":"2024-06-14T10:40:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-14T10:56:15+08:00","duration":946,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（10時40分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長好。院長，我們相識二十幾年，今天應該是第一次有機會站在這個臺上跟您面對面的進行詢答。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["邱委員議瑩：本來應該是要恭喜您的啦！但是我覺得現在整個朝野的氣氛，整個行政、立法之間的劍拔弩張，也不應該特別恭喜您。院長，我想請您看一下，對於立法院在5月28號提出國會擴權這樣的一個法案，行政院很迅速的就提出了覆議，這個大概是你們提出來的7大原因，當然行政院也特別說明為什麼你們要提出這樣的一個覆議案。很清楚的，這個國會擴權的法案違憲、違法，完全窒礙難行，而且未來很有可能讓人民必須擔負著他們無法預知的後果。","所以面對這樣一個窒礙難行的法案，行政院當然可以提出幾個措施，第一個當然就是覆議，這個覆議案在下個禮拜我們就要開始進行所謂的全體委員會，院長，您還必須到立法院來進行說明，下個禮拜要進行表決。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是很顯然的，其實我們大概可以預見這個表決的結果大概已經決定，因為國民黨他們不會半夜良心發現，因為國民黨他們受到的指令是來自於對岸全力的下指令，要顛覆國家的整個系統。行政院面對覆議案如果不過的時候，行政院未來會採取什麼樣的措施？院長，可不可以請您說明一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員的理解，在面對憲政機關的義務，在有違憲、窒礙難行的法案，行政機關一定是要依照憲政的秩序來提出應該有的救濟，所以剛剛誠如委員說的，也許我們對努力的結果現在還在進行當中，但是雖千萬人吾往矣，我們有這樣的決心。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，院長，我感謝你有這樣的一個決心，雖千萬人吾往矣，但是我必須提醒，過去民進黨在執政的時期，其實我們也面臨到很多政策上面的推動困難，所以院長您大概還記憶猶新，當初我們面對四大公投的時候，有整個行政院團隊帶隊下鄉，包括立法委員、包括行政院的官員，甚至蘇貞昌院長，我們下鄉辦了超過一百多場的說明會，讓社會大眾很清楚地知道，這個四大公投在投什麼東西、在談什麼東西、對民眾的影響在哪裡、對國家的影響在哪裡。","面對立法院通過這樣的一個違憲擴權案，我其實希望行政院長、行政院的團隊也應該要出面，下鄉跟民眾面對面的說明，你必須讓很多的民眾清楚，行政院不是因為我們表決不過、表決輸人家，所以我們才不執行這些法案，而是你必須讓很多的民眾清楚地知道，這樣的一個擴權法案違憲、違法的地方在哪裡、對民眾的影響在哪裡。所以我在這裡很懇切地要求行政院院長，院長，如果表決不過的時候，在聲請釋憲的這個階段、這個過程裡面，行政院應該走出辦公室，應該走到市民、走到國民的面前，讓臺灣的國民很清楚地知道這一部違法、違憲的擴權法案的不合理性。院長，您同意我的建議嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常感謝委員的建議，我們依稀記得四個不同意那個時代，大概是有三個月的期間……"],["邱委員議瑩：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：所有的聲音都跑出來，所有支持的聲音都跑出來，所有意見都跑出來，我們也知道那個時候帶動了整個社會的討論。但現在這一次，跟委員報告，因為從開始提出覆議案到下禮拜五的表決，事實上只有不到一個禮拜的時間，當中我們安排了相當多既定的公務行程，行政院目前兩個事情要做……"],["邱委員議瑩：院長，我沒有要求你在這禮拜以內去下鄉，我也知道你下個禮拜，幾乎一整個禮拜都被綁在立法院裡頭……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我談的是覆議案表決沒有過之後，很顯然它一定不會過啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在心裡的準備是覆議案表決會過。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長，您跟我的政治判斷會有一點不一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：我比較樂觀。"],["邱委員議瑩：你比較樂觀，你認為會過……"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信人類有高尚的心靈。"],["邱委員議瑩：你的樂觀來自於國民黨的良心發現嗎？但是以我們這一段時間的相處，我覺得很難啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信人類有高尚的心靈，委員是正義的化身。"],["邱委員議瑩：除非「半暝吃西瓜─反症」，看有沒有辦法改變，不然是真的很困難啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：再加油、再努力。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果不過的話，院長，我覺得這個不是開玩笑的，我認為我們應該嚴肅的面對這樣一個違憲擴權的議題。我覺得應該要認真的去讓全體的國民知道這樣一個違憲擴權的議題。它的時間不會侷限、不會說我只給你一個月的時間去說明，而是你們應該利用更多、更多的機會，去讓全體的臺灣國民知道，甚至也要讓國際知道臺灣對於這樣一個違法擴權法案的反對力量、反對聲音，這個我覺得都應該把它擴散出去，院長，這個你應該可以做得到吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，覆議案是總統核可之後，行政、立法兩院之間的互動，但如果是釋憲，那是全國人民對憲法再一次的認知，我想那個需要告訴人民更多、更強……"],["邱委員議瑩：到那個時候你們就應該要更多的說明了嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定遵照這樣的方式、這個方向，好好的跟人民來做訴求。"],["邱委員議瑩：我認為溝通這件事情是很重要，下鄉說明是很重要，四個不同意那個時候，其實很多的聲音對民進黨是相對不利，但是經過一百多場的說明之後，投票的結果完全是翻轉。","所以我現在要跟院長討論，最近討論最多的是國土計畫法，國土計畫法按照既定的時程是要在2025年的4月就要開始準備上路，但是現在多方反對的聲音，尤其是對於農地的限制，對於土地的限制，這個聲音一直不斷的出來。院長，我讓您看一下，這個是盧秀燕市長說國土計畫法上路之後農地就會被判死刑，因為我們現在的農一到農五整個土地的規劃，依照現行法令的規定，民眾是不可以任意申請變更的，必須由縣市政府提出通盤檢討的計畫，才能來申請變更。依照現在國土計畫法的法條，縣市政府是可以透過每5年的國土計畫通盤檢討，來做適時的調整嘛，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：劉部長？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝邱委員的關心，確實你講的沒有錯，但是，國土計畫法的實施，保障農民的權益不變，保障合法農地使用的權益也不變。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果是這樣，我要更進一步請教，農一、農二、這些特定的農業區、優良的土地能不能變更？你們現在說可以，縣市政府如果提出了通盤檢討，提出了變更計畫，最後審決的單位還是在中央，有沒有可能中央把它駁回？這個就是現在國民黨的縣市長，或者是很多的縣市長，很多的農民在擔憂的地方。到底農地是不是永久被鎖死？這件事情是事實還是造謠？我沒有聽到行政單位對於這個事情很明確的告訴大家，而且這是未來會發生的事情，所以大家都會擔心。","第二項，國民黨的張縣長，我不知道他講的是事實還是造謠，所以我要請教你們，國土計畫法針對違規使用訂定天價的罰金，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：完全相反，國土計畫法是只針對2公頃以上，當他做非法變更而且讓人有重傷害或者致人於死時才有相當高的罰金，否則就是按照原來區域計畫法裡面的罰則進行。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，所以部長您看看我整理的表格到底對不對，如果依照現行的法令，現在的區域計畫法是不分情節一律罰6到30萬，未來你們是按照土地分區、分類使用，有各種不同的裁罰基準，所以反對黨的縣市長當然會拿裁罰基準最高的500萬出來講，他就跟農民講：如果你違規使用的話，你就會被罰500萬、你就會被罰天價的罰金。可是他沒有告訴農民的是，有一些不同的裁罰基準，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以他的講話，有一部分是事實，但是大部分是造謠，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我想跟邱委員回復一下，關於雲林縣政府的溝通，到目前為止，我們已經有請他們參加44場以上的溝通，所以雲林縣政府的農業單位跟經發單位都非常瞭解這個事實。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。第三個，這個比較嚴重，院長，這個我就需要您的回答。關於違規檢舉獎金制度，檢舉達人現在在馬路上應該是人人喊打，交通部過去的交通違規有檢舉達人的制度，所以我們把它取消掉了，那我們現在的國土計畫法裡頭還放著檢舉獎金制度，我認為它是非常不恰當的，其實行政院或者是內政部可以透過經費的撥補、人力的撥補，讓我們的人員可以加強查緝、加強清查，或者現在利用空拍機都可以知道土地有沒有違規使用，但是一旦落入了檢舉達人的檢舉獎金制度之後，我告訴你，農民真的是會拿鋤頭來跟你們對抗。"],["劉部長世芳：我們可以來檢討，邱委員講的沒有錯，現在其實我們有衛星影像的通報系統，它會比檢舉達人更精確，因為這個法條是在104年訂定的，所以已經不合時宜，我們可以來檢討。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以院長您同意把檢舉達人的這個部分取消掉嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我始終一個想法，我們應該鼓勵人民互相關懷，而不是鼓勵人民互相監控。"],["邱委員議瑩：我同意你這個看法。"],["卓院長榮泰：這句話當作我們的理念，政府應該加強公權力跟科技的方式來對不法或是違規的行為做檢測，所以檢舉的事項，我覺得應該再重新檢討。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果檢舉獎金制度願意取消的話，我希望大家可以趕快來就這個部分做法案的修訂。","我們一直談到對農地的影響，院長，請您到高雄來看看我們美濃的特定農業專區，它是一個很漂亮的地方，它的農業生產、農業產值都非常的高，我相信全臺灣有很多農業專區其實是一樣的，但是在國土計劃法裡頭，我剛剛問到農一、農二能不能任意變更？你們現在說，只要縣市政府提出來是可以，但是我對它是持保留的態度，未來不能變更的時候，或者現在已經是被劃定在農一、農二、農三的這些農地，我們是不是應該要給予這些農地更多的對地補貼，農民的土地過去可能可以變成建地，當它變成建地跟在實際耕作的土地價值與收入相差是非常的大的，在被劃成農一的時候，對農民來講，我們其實要給予他更多的關懷、更多的補貼，讓農民覺得他們這塊地不是死地，他們不是只能靠種番茄維生、種稻子維生，我們的對地補貼、很多的補償機制是不是有辦法提高、增加呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，當被國土計畫劃為農一或農二時，未來我們農業資源的投入會更為強化，特別是在基礎環境設施，包括農水路的部分，另外，對於農地的綠色環境給付，對於栽植有機友善等耕作模式的獎勵，甚至有關於生態的獎勵、環境的獎勵，我們都會有更加碼的、比過往更高強度的部分……"],["邱委員議瑩：請問你們要怎麼加碼？你們要怎麼做？過去比如說領有某一種給付的就不可以領第二種，你們現在是要用……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在是設計堆疊式的一個獎勵。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我領了友善耕作的補貼，我也可以領到優質的……"],["陳部長駿季：我們還有生態的、環境的……"],["邱委員議瑩：還有生態的、環境的……"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為過往我們在生態的給付裡面，純粹只是針對……"],["邱委員議瑩：這些施行細則什麼時候可以出來？我期待農業部能夠加緊腳步，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會著重在這個部分。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長，我真的覺得，國土計畫法現在如果要倉促上路，會引來非常多的怨言，我真的覺得跟民眾的溝通是非常的重要，在還沒有完整的溝通之前，我認為其實如果能夠緩一緩的話，真的事緩則圓，這個當然要請行政院能認真思考本席的建議，以上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽的是臺北市成功高中同學，我們熱情歡迎！臺灣未來的棟梁，熱情歡迎！","接下來，我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":29,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-14"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1135701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.348468750000002,"end":23.250968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.453468750000003,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.76409375,"end":34.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.74284375,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.17596875,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.53034375,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.12471875,"end":54.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.009718750000005,"end":57.102218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.55784375,"end":61.000343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.439093750000005,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.47659375,"end":67.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.49721875,"end":69.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.16784375,"end":80.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.86221875000001,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.89534375000001,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.12659375000001,"end":95.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.94846875,"end":107.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.47409375000001,"end":112.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.49471875,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.95846875000001,"end":115.21971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.37159375,"end":121.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.46346875,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.46284375,"end":128.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.51721875,"end":129.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.15409375000002,"end":130.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.62221875,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.07721875000001,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.32534375,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.68346875,"end":146.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.80971875,"end":148.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.42534375,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.78346875,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.62721875,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.22596875000002,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.77846875,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.09409375,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.80596875,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.72909375,"end":178.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.54721875,"end":185.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.58846875,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.77721875,"end":193.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.16096875000002,"end":201.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.85596875000002,"end":208.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.44971875000002,"end":218.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.69721875000002,"end":223.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.48971875,"end":233.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.49659375000002,"end":236.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.26409375000003,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.67721875,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.99471875,"end":260.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.20971875000004,"end":260.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.00284375,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.04034375000003,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.09034375000005,"end":270.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.24596875000003,"end":284.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.15096875,"end":294.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.28909375,"end":292.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.66034375000004,"end":292.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.66846875000005,"end":297.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.39784375,"end":301.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.77284375,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.24096875000004,"end":304.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.79346875000005,"end":306.93659375000004},{"s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71,"text":"所以面對這樣一個至愛難行的法案行政院當然可以提出幾個措施第一個當然就是復議這個復議案會在下個禮拜我們就要開始進行所謂的全體委員會院長你還必須到立法院來進行說明下個禮拜要進行表決"},{"start":113.012,"end":130.526,"text":"但是很顯然的其實如果我們大概可以預見這個表決的結果大概已經決定因為國民黨他們不會半夜良心發現因為國民黨他們受到的指令是來自於對岸"},{"start":131.527,"end":132.688,"text":"非常謝謝委員的理解"},{"start":149.454,"end":175.585,"text":"在面對憲政機關的義務在有違憲、自在難行的法案行政機關一定是要依照憲政的秩序來提出應該有的救濟所以剛剛陳律委員說的也許我們對努力的結果現在還在進行當中但是雖千萬人無往矣我們有這樣的決心院長我感謝你有這樣的一個決心雖千萬人無往矣"},{"start":176.789,"end":192.004,"text":"但是我必須提醒啊過去民進黨在執政的時期其實我們也面臨到很多政策上面的推動困難所以院長您大概還記憶猶新當初我們面對四大公投的時候"},{"start":192.825,"end":215.746,"text":"由整個行政院團隊帶隊下鄉包括立法委員包括行政院的官員甚至蘇貞昌院長我們下鄉辦了超過100多場的說明會讓社會大眾很清楚的知道這個四大公投在投什麼東西在談什麼東西對民眾的影響在哪裡對國家的影響在哪裡"},{"start":218.729,"end":237.802,"text":"那面對到立法院通過這樣的一個違憲擴權案我其實希望行政院長、行政院的團隊也應該要出面下鄉跟民眾面對面的說明你必須讓很多的民眾清楚行政院不是因為"},{"start":238.843,"end":257.798,"text":"啊我們表決不過表決輸人家所以我們才不執行這些法案而是你必須讓很多的民眾清楚的知道這樣的一個擴權法案違憲違法的地方在哪裡對民眾的影響在哪裡所以我在這裡很懇切的要求"},{"start":259.059,"end":284.162,"text":"行政院院長,院長,如果表決不過的時候,在申請釋憲的這個階段,這個過程裡面,行政院應該走出辦公室,應該走到市民,走到國民的面前,讓台灣的國民很清楚的知道這一部違法違憲的擴權法案的不合理性。院長您同意我的建議嗎?"},{"start":285.182,"end":297.568,"text":"非常感謝委員的建議我們依稀記得四個不同意那個時代大概是有三個月的期間所有的聲音都跑出來所有支持的聲音都跑出來所有意見都跑出來"},{"start":298.444,"end":327.904,"text":"我們也知道那個時候帶動了整個社會的討論但現在這一次跟委員報告因為從開始提出復議案到下禮拜五的表決事實上只有不到一個禮拜的時間那當中我們有安排了相當多既定的公務行程行政院目前兩個事情要做我沒有要求你在這一個禮拜以內去下下我也知道你下個禮拜幾乎一整個禮拜都被綁在立法院裡頭我談的是復議案表決沒有過之後"},{"start":328.544,"end":330.986,"text":"我相信人類有高尚的心靈。我相信人類有高尚的心靈為正義的化身。"},{"start":352.827,"end":361.338,"text":"再加油 再努力如果 不過的話 院長我覺得這個不是開玩笑的我認為我們應該嚴肅的面對這樣的一個違憲擴權的議題我覺得應該要認真的去讓全體的國民知道這樣的一個違憲擴權的議題"},{"start":370.129,"end":393.793,"text":"那他的時間不會只極限說不會說我只給你一個月的時間去說明而是你們應該利用更多更多的機會去讓全體的臺灣國民知道甚至也要讓國際知道臺灣對於這樣的一個違法擴權法案的反對力量反對聲音這個我覺得都應該把它擴散出去喔好院長這個你應該可以做得到吧"},{"start":394.113,"end":414.232,"text":"好,謝謝委員。復議案是總統合可之後,行政立法兩院之間的這個互動。但是,如果是釋憲,那是全國人民對憲法再一次的認知。我想那個需要告訴人們是更多更強。我們一定遵照這樣的方式,這個方向,好好的跟人民來做訴求。"},{"start":414.793,"end":430.287,"text":"我認為溝通這件事情是很重要下鄉說明是很重要四個不同意那個時候其實很多的聲音對民進黨是相對不利但是經過一百多場的說明之後投票的結果完全是翻轉所以"},{"start":431.431,"end":454.921,"text":"我現在要跟院長您討論最近討論最多的是國土計劃法。國土計劃法按照既定的時程是要在2025年的4月就要開始準備上路但是現在呢多方反對的聲音尤其是對於農地的限制對於土地的限制這個聲音一直不斷的出來"},{"start":456.968,"end":483.894,"text":"這個院長我讓您看一下這個是盧秀燕市長他說國土計畫法上路之後農地就會被判死刑因為我們現在的農一到農五的整個土地的規劃依照現行的法令的規定民眾是不可以任意申請變更的他必須由縣市政府提出"},{"start":484.514,"end":484.574,"text":"是的﹖"},{"start":508.083,"end":533.275,"text":"謝謝邱委員的關心確實你講的沒有錯但是國土計畫法的實施第一個保障農民的權益不變保障合法的農地的使用的權益也不變好如果是這樣我要更進一步請教農一農二這些特定的農業區優秀的優良的土地能不能變更你們現在說可以縣市政府如果提出了"},{"start":534.275,"end":551.273,"text":"通盤檢討提出了變更計畫最後審決的單位還是在中央有沒有可能中央把它駁回這個就是現在國民黨的縣市長或者是很多的縣市長很多的農民在擔憂的地方到底農地是不是永久被鎖死"},{"start":551.913,"end":566.591,"text":"這件事情是事實還是造謠我沒有聽到行政單位對於這個事情很明確很明確的告訴大家而且這是未來會發生的事情喔所以大家當然先反倒去來看嘛第二項"},{"start":568.94,"end":595.133,"text":"國民黨的另外一位張縣長,我不知道他講的這個是事實還是造謠,所以我要請教你。國土計劃法針對違規使用訂定天價的罰金嗎?是嗎?完全相反,國土計劃法是針對只有兩公頃以上,它做的是非法的變更,而且呢,讓人家有重傷害或者致人於死的時候才有相當高的罰金,否則就是按照原來區域計劃法裡面的罰則進行。所以,"},{"start":598.755,"end":618.09,"text":"來部長您看看我整理的這個表到底對不對這個表對不對如果說依照現行的法令現在的區域計劃法是不分情節一律把6到30萬未來你們是按照土地分區分類的使用有各種不同的裁拔基準所以"},{"start":619.997,"end":638.573,"text":"反對黨的縣市長他當然會拿你的裁罰基準最高的500萬出來講他就跟你講說你跟農民講說如果你違規使用的話你就會被罰500萬你就會被罰天價的罰金可是他沒有告訴農民的是有一些不同的裁罰基準嘛對不對所以剛剛那個講話"},{"start":641.736,"end":667.125,"text":"她一部分是事實,但是大部分是造謠。您同意我的看法嗎?是的,我想跟邱議瑩回復一下關於雲林縣政府的溝通,到目前為止我們已經有請她參加44場以上的這個溝通。所以雲林縣政府他們的農業單位跟它經發單位都非常了解這個事實。好,第三個,這個比較嚴重啊。院長這個我就需要您的回答。違規檢舉獎金制度。"},{"start":669.541,"end":681.548,"text":"檢舉達人現在在馬路上應該是人人喊打。交通部過去的交通違規有檢舉達人的制度。所以我們把它取消掉了。那我們現在的國土計畫法裡頭還放著檢舉獎金制度。"},{"start":685.902,"end":712.675,"text":"我認為他是非常不恰當的其實行政院或者是內政部我們可以透過經費的撥補人力的撥補讓我們的人員可以加強茶器加強清茶或者是你們現在利用很多的空拍機其實都可以知道土地有沒有違規使用但是你一旦落入了檢舉達人的檢舉獎金制度的時候我告訴你農民真的是會拿鋤頭來跟你們打"},{"start":713.735,"end":736.186,"text":"我們可以來檢討現在邱議瑩講的沒有錯現在其實我們有所謂的衛星影像的通報系統他會比所謂的檢舉達人更精確那因為這個法條是在104年訂定的所以他已經不合時宜我們可以來檢討所以院長您同意把檢舉達人的這個部分把它取消掉嗎報告委員我始終一個想法"},{"start":737.128,"end":763.905,"text":"我們應該鼓勵人民互相關懷而不是鼓勵人民互相監控這句話當作我們的理念那政府應該加強的是公權力跟科技的方式來對不法或是違規的行為做檢測所以檢舉的事項我覺得應該再重新的檢討所以如果檢舉獎金制度願意來做取消的話我希望大家可以趕快早日的來就這個部分來做法案的修訂"},{"start":765.105,"end":784.691,"text":"當然我們一直談到對農地的影響,院長我如果能夠請您到高雄來看看我們美農的特定農業專區,它是一個很漂亮的地方,它的農業生產包括農業的產值都非常的高,我相信全台灣有很多的農業專區其實是一樣的。"},{"start":786.551,"end":805.776,"text":"但是在國土計畫法裡頭我剛剛問到農一、農二能不能任意變更。你們現在說只要縣市政府提出來是可以,但是我對他是持保留的態度。未來不能變更的時候或者現在已經是被劃定在農一、農二、農三的這些農地。"},{"start":806.636,"end":824.839,"text":"我們是不是應該要給予這一些農地更多更多的對地補貼我覺得農民的土地過去可能可以變成建地當你變成建地的時候跟你在持實際耕作的那個土地價值跟收入相差是非常的大的"},{"start":825.299,"end":848.369,"text":"那如何在被劃成農醫的時候對農民來講我們其實給予他更多的關懷、更多的補貼。讓農民覺得我這塊地不是私地,我不是只能靠種番茄維生、種梨花維生。我們的對地補貼、我們的很多的補償機制是不是有辦法來提高來增加呢?"},{"start":849.089,"end":867.634,"text":"我跟那個委員說明齁就是當你國土計畫被化為農業或農惡的時候那未來我們的農業的資源的投入會更為強化特別是在基礎環境設施包括農水路的部分那另外對於農地的綠色環境的一個給付"},{"start":868.547,"end":887.724,"text":"那對於它栽植有機有膳的這些耕作模式的一個獎勵甚至於有關於生態的獎勵環境的獎勵我們都會有更加碼的一個比過往更高強度的部分請問你們要怎麼加碼你們要怎麼做過去比如說有領某一種幾副的就不可以領第二種那你們現在是要用推諜式的一個獎勵"},{"start":891.747,"end":896.593,"text":"對,因為過往我們在生態的給付裡面純粹只是針對……好,那這些施行細則什麼時候可以出來,我覺得期待農業部能夠加緊腳步啊。"},{"start":908.186,"end":908.206,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":935.507,"end":945.739,"text":"謝謝邱議瑩委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告院會,現在在議場二樓旁聽的是臺北市成功高中同學,我們熱情歡迎臺灣未來的"}]}},{"id":"154039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5066363fcb0c01854ca9cf17be59ffd15b353bd305991554619d3bb27baaa0d3d104b08215f3295d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:14:47 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