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長陳道輝通信電子資訊參謀次長市次長盧建宗訓次市次長張俊志陸軍參謀長陳建義"},{"start":2088.424,"end":2097.471,"text":"海軍參謀長邱俊榮空軍參謀長曹敬平後備指揮部參謀長薛淵泉縣指部參謀長呂正芳陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長劉清薰支通電軍指揮部參謀長陳俊良"},{"start":2116.682,"end":2127.571,"text":"軍情局第一處處長鄧敦仁電展室執行長許益新中科院院長張忠誠"},{"start":2131.665,"end":2157.603,"text":"今天跟委員會報告我們今天有兩個案子一個是海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效那我們在場多數為新的國防委員我們在特別預算必須要先制定特別預算的法律根據特別預算的法律來編列預算那預算也要經過審計每個年度"},{"start":2160.478,"end":2182.05,"text":"特別預算的致用單位必須在每一個年度提出他們的執行進度跟成效的報告那特別預算也要納入國家的舉債額度也沒辦法迴避所以特別預算只是說跨年度或者是特別的項目必須使用的國家總預算的合法的預算的一種方式它也必須經過審查、經過審計、經過監督、年度也要經過報告"},{"start":2186.772,"end":2208.403,"text":"所以我們今天就是進行海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效的報告案另外一個是國防部的機密專案預算待會採取機密報告跟機密詢答的方式那基於作業的順暢我們今天的議程採取先公開報告"},{"start":2209.904,"end":2231.698,"text":"接下來清場清場完之後進行秘密報告秘密詢答秘密詢答之後再開放我們301的會議現場然後進行公開的詢答這樣作業的話我們只需要清場一次本會委員今天質詢的時間6加2分鐘機密跟公開共用時間"},{"start":2232.719,"end":2252.239,"text":"非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案請在10點半以前提出11點左右本席會試詢答的情形彈性處理現在我們進行公開報告的部分請國防部顧立雄部長上台報告"},{"start":2261.175,"end":2274.272,"text":"主席、各位委員先進今天非常榮幸應邀到大院委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員對國防安全及國軍建軍備戰關切與指導在此表達誠摯的謝意"},{"start":2277.034,"end":2303.288,"text":"為適應兩岸極具升溫的敵情威脅本部針對聯合反制、整體防空、海上截擊等任務需求編列特別預算執行海空戰力提升計畫採購案規劃於民國111年至115年籌獲各式精準飛彈、載台等裝備備提升國軍整體戰力達成防衛固守重成核組織作戰需求確保國家安全與"},{"start":2304.348,"end":2329.425,"text":"區域和平穩定國防部將全力督管中科院及各建案軍種缺一計畫目標籌建海空戰力提升計畫所需各式武器裝備並兼顧戰力提升與貫徹國防自主政策備力國防資源發揮最大效益接續由本部的軍備局局長林文祥中將實施專案報告進行各位委員先進指導與支持謝謝"},{"start":2334.946,"end":2361.344,"text":"召委各位委員大家好軍備局局長報告海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效專案報告一、前言衛士印兩岸集聚升溫之敵情威脅快速提升國軍整體防衛能力本部編列特別預算籌獲海空戰力提升計畫各式武器系統必提升國軍整體戰力現緊就採購進度及執行成效說明如後二、"},{"start":2362.695,"end":2374.046,"text":"計畫目標是111-115年一聯合反制、整體防空及海上截擊等作戰需求編列特別預算新台幣2369億5000餘萬元以8類10項專案籌建、安置反艦飛彈、高效能艦艇、海巡艇加裝戰時武器"},{"start":2383.775,"end":2409.474,"text":"三、萬箭飛彈、無人攻擊載具、雄生飛彈、陸基防空飛彈及野戰防空飛彈等武器系統。三、一百一十二年執行成效本計畫一百一十二年貨戶特別預算六百八十五億餘元規劃籌建各型飛彈載台、軍事設施及通信指管裝備等四項執行成效分數如後。"},{"start":2410.515,"end":2417.709,"text":"一、專案執行進度一、飛彈籌募進度年度已一計畫產制各式飛彈並結角軍種擔任戰備任務執行進度百分之百"},{"start":2424.465,"end":2452.89,"text":"二、載台籌貨進度．除高效能艦艇外．玄岸已依計畫完成機動飛彈車等各式載台產製．執行進度94%．相關測定作為災暴如後一、玄岸局依計畫年度計畫管制執行．其中第45艘艦受限於外購．射控雷達原廠產能不足、延遲到貨影響．未能於112年12月交件二、"},{"start":2454.26,"end":2473.919,"text":"為確保本案順利執行則互中科院專案團隊指派高階人員赴原場盯催並要求船長調整檢驗工序及派員進駐船長管制工進已於113年2月全數到料並於3月26日完成全案五艘艦艇交艦任務"},{"start":2476.121,"end":2501.083,"text":"三、軍事設施籌建進度．年度一計畫完成各式武器、裝備及軍事設施．並移交軍種執行戰備任務．執行進度百分之百。四、通訊執管裝備籌募進度．年度一計畫產製及結繳各式．通訊執管裝備交互海軍、海巡署應用．執行進度百分之百。二、"},{"start":2502.168,"end":2520.457,"text":"預算之用一百一十二年度分配預算六百八十五億三千九百零九萬餘元包含一百一十二年度預算數六百三十二億兩千四百四十五萬餘元及一百一十一年節轉數五十三億一千四百六十三萬餘元"},{"start":2521.838,"end":2545.466,"text":"一百一十二年度致用六百零一億元．致用率八十七點七五．於八十三億元．節轉至一百一十三年度致用．降如下表一．請參閱。三、試商成果一百一十二年度試商規劃．四百九十八點五億元．採購簽約四百零八點三億元．試商成效達八十一點九．"},{"start":2546.286,"end":2562.156,"text":"二、以執行採購事商暨4344案．三、與廠商暨有1735家．跨族、機械、電子、營造、資通、造船．汽車、化學、光電等各產業．產業衍生效益達816.6億元．增加就業人數22513人．"},{"start":2569.241,"end":2577.4,"text":"有效創造國防安全與擴大產業鏈經濟動能效益之雙贏目標四章效益統計降爐下表二請參約"},{"start":2581.553,"end":2604.889,"text":"是強化履約及專案督管機制一、中科院海空戰力提升計畫採購特別預算各生產案均編設專責單位負責各式的武器系統生產製造另於院部、納編、財務、法務、採購、督察等業管成立專責管制室以編組分工專人專責統籌各項工作嚴密各計畫節點管制必落實風險管控與執行考管"},{"start":2611.713,"end":2631.531,"text":"二、建案軍種各軍種預約納編、主計、採購、法務及監察等單位執行海空戰力提升計畫、履約督導並利用軍種每季專案管制每月專案整合團隊會議依節點督管產制進度及管制風險並"},{"start":2634.022,"end":2642.627,"text":"一、約檢驗驗收武器裝備令針對落後個案檢派專員進駐必及時掌握生產備料、禮業進度、裝備測試及人員教育訓練等作業以督管全案執行狀況。三、國防部"},{"start":2651.874,"end":2680.989,"text":"本部納編各業館連餐共同督管每兩個月召開監審作業整合團隊工作會議針對節點、平和、專案風險、公淨負荷程度及預算執行進度等等項實施管控並採定期、不定期查查集合另據風險專案主舉提報方式由軍備副部長每月召開會議管制確保專案執行無虞、順利達成年度量產任務"},{"start":2682.372,"end":2683.334,"text":"五、113年執行規劃本計畫113年貨戶特別預算489億6300"},{"start":2693.054,"end":2714.289,"text":"．規劃籌建雄風、天劍系列、天弓三型．及艦翔無人機等各式飛彈．機動載台等各式裝備及軍事設施．針對海空戰力提升計畫各項專案．需由本部依規劃期程督管、建案軍種．及中科院落實執行．必滿足年度量產任務。"},{"start":2715.109,"end":2732.417,"text":"六、節語本計畫依防衛固守、重重嚇阻軍事戰略指導於最短的期程內籌獲、成熟、效高及快速形成戰力的各式軍種飛彈及海軍高效能艦艇有效強化國軍整體防衛能量建構可視嚇阻戰力"},{"start":2733.973,"end":2758.808,"text":"感謝大院各委員的指導有關海空戰力提升計畫112年各項工作均依計畫期程執行本部將嚴格督管各單位入力按計畫期程管制武器裝備獲得並藉全案推動國內市商帶動國防產業發展升級逐步建構完整國防產業供應鏈以上報告敬請各位委員先進支持與指導謝謝好謝謝軍備局長請回"},{"start":2762.53,"end":2776.431,"text":"公開報告結束接下來我們要以秘密會議的方式進行機密報告本委員會去年10月12號通過之決議參與秘密會議人員應切實遵循保密規範"},{"start":2777.352,"end":2800.86,"text":"我們現在要進行清場稍後參與秘密會議人員除委員外都要憑機密證才能進入會場所有人員請將手機、攝錄影設備電子手錶、手環二哥大等有傳訊相關功能的設備置於場外置物櫃並接受"},{"start":3627.779,"end":3646.645,"text":"好,現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答那先請王定宇召委上台質詢好,謝謝主席,麻煩顧立雄部長有請部長,謝謝"},{"start":3652.594,"end":3675.023,"text":"事由王委員好部長早我們今天那個每個年度要報告海空戰力提升計畫裡面根據你們提列的報告那你們要來報告預算條例我們以前主計長也上來了那也要把執行成效報告進來主計長來主計局我待會有些問這個部分的數據要請教一下"},{"start":3676.651,"end":3689.858,"text":"主席長你邊走邊聽我問我們這個特別預算條例裡面所列的預算跟我們年度的總預算其實都要納入國家局在上限是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":3689.858,"end":3691.499,"text":"是啊他沒辦法迴避嗎?"},{"start":3691.499,"end":3699.023,"text":"是的對就是我們的局在上限沒辦法迴避還是在國家整個財務控管下嘛那他要經過立法院同意那要不要經過審計"},{"start":3701.014,"end":3725.98,"text":"也要經過審計然後每一年度還是要報告進度跟成效嘛所以事實上特別預算在我們的預算法裡面其實是跟總預算一樣它就是一個法定的編列預算方式大概用於跨年度或者比較重要的科目它沒辦法在年度預算裡面編列才來進行執行所以我是建議我們主計單位對於特別預算的法源"},{"start":3726.94,"end":3727.88,"text":"報告秘密．"},{"start":3746.485,"end":3749.147,"text":"總共8項10類其中有一個是他講除了高效能艦艇載台這個大概講的就駝江啦高效能艦艇載台外"},{"start":3770.572,"end":3780.983,"text":"這個執行成效達到百分之九十四但體的取得已經到百分之百所以第一個問題是我們那個高效能艦艇現在進度到底怎麼樣"},{"start":3782.669,"end":3799.748,"text":"因為你上面沒有單獨把它列出來,它到底進度...五艘,我覺得了解五艘都已經交付了所以它現在的進度是多少?你報告沒有這個數據你上面只寫除載台外執行成效94%那高校人載台已經解決了嗎?"},{"start":3801.25,"end":3822.264,"text":"對,他的報告我看我第一次看的時候也是有一點那個但是他的意思應該是如果你算到去年年底他是94%點多但是到今年的3月那已經全部6艘都已經交進就是一艘原型加5艘全部都交運了那你這個報告是最近交進來的為什麼還在寫去年的94%來來對麥克風回答"},{"start":3826.227,"end":3843.065,"text":"你懂意思嗎?那一段文字我看不懂啦各位報告一下因為我們就是以112年的執行成效因為標題是112所以你現在報告的是對這是2023就112年會計年度裡面的執行成效對,確實好,那就本席可以接受就是說到去年底"},{"start":3843.746,"end":3860.444,"text":"在台可能有一些設備還沒辦法取得,所以你把他先扣除,他執行成效94%但是在今年3月都開始追上進度了,這樣詮釋是對的那另外呢,你們世商就是我們希望透過這個促進我們國內的經濟嘛,世商預計498.5億"},{"start":3864.969,"end":3881.556,"text":"那你們報告裡面說執行成效是408.3億成效是81.9%其實落差20%左右還蠻大的這個試商為什麼有兩成無法試出是我們國內廠商沒有意願技術不足還是有什麼樣的困難"},{"start":3882.316,"end":3895.501,"text":"國防部報告當初我們在預估試商金額的時候是以公開公告招標的錢來算也就是說我們的預算來算但是經過整個我現在寫的那個是有80多億沒有試商欸對是絕標價絕標價"},{"start":3901.048,"end":3929.667,"text":"公告的前面是用公告的金額來算所以項目上是不是全部試商了全部試商但是呢因為你用招標的所以有的85折有的82折所以金額就沒有達到那邊對但是事實上我公告金額是500零那我會建議報告可以寫詳盡就是你試商的科項目全部都試商完成但因為招標招標金額不可能百分之百一樣因為你們不是全部都最有利標嘛有的是價格標嘛那價格標打折下來"},{"start":3930.727,"end":3930.747,"text":"拜訪議員．"},{"start":3953.262,"end":3962.786,"text":"目前都是按照進度,現在就... 不不不,我在問你剛才的回答會讓我誤以為全部的項目都試商了只是招標額度打折而已啊有沒有項目沒有試商?"},{"start":3962.786,"end":3967.968,"text":"還沒有幾乎該採購的都採購了 我不要幾乎這種談有沒有項目還沒有試商?"},{"start":3967.968,"end":3975.831,"text":"沒有該做的都沒有 全部都試商了 對還有113年,今年度的還是有試商的金額當然,我們在講去年度的嘛 去年度全部都試商了 好"},{"start":3977.412,"end":3986.618,"text":"我要問的有關這個報告的最後一個問題就是我們因應這一個海空戰力提升不管是各類的,像雄風啊各類的彈體的製造、載台的製造"},{"start":3990.676,"end":4018.204,"text":"有提升產線的產能吧?有產線的產能包含人員包含產線的裝備都提升了我現在請問那如果我們這一個計畫結束之後提升的產能增加的人力你們後續打算怎麼辦?各位報告在人力方面因為我們現在是採用不定期契約的方式來進人就是為了因為不定期你這樣講你現在在中科院上班的員工馬上想到下一個問題是什麼?"},{"start":4019.464,"end":4046.51,"text":"結束我就結束了欸我就沒工作了會不會報告這些海空戰力提升員我們用定期的方式他有三年的、有五年的、有兩年的所以你們產能提升這個計畫結束了這些有技術的工人、技術工契約到期就不予需要他就沒有了吧我們有配套措施這些人我們還有擇優入用的方式如果說他表現得不錯你擇優入用"},{"start":4047.15,"end":4050.262,"text":"跟契約到齊他就是合約不續約"},{"start":4052.989,"end":4080.938,"text":"大概是現在目前大概三分之一留用所以有三分之一可以留用表現好的可以留用是的還是特殊專長可以留用表現好特殊專長但是他有評比院長這些東西不能含糊啦不能說大概幾乎好像可以你知道這牽涉到你現在帶的人他的軍心能不能穩定接下來我們國防產業是永續性的本期給你一個具體的建議你產能提升不是只有人你還裝備都提升了那你這些契約工到期了不去用"},{"start":4081.778,"end":4095.743,"text":"那你那些提升產能的裝備就閒置在那裡就像我們以前製造砲那個腰兩洞砲的那個榴彈砲的東西就封在那邊機器是會老會壞的所以一方面是不是要尋求怎麼樣去繼續生產製造"},{"start":4097.864,"end":4117.985,"text":"二方面我們優秀的技術工我們民間如果有相關的產業你們事實上要結合輔導他去就業不要讓自己的員工努力了三年五年他覺得契約到了我大概就沒有明天了那會產生一些問題這個我一定要提醒工科院好這個部分請回我回到部長"},{"start":4119.482,"end":4139.871,"text":"部長我們除了這個海空戰力提升計畫以外呢我現在舉一個項目是我們對美採購的托式飛彈托式2B飛彈大概是新型的要過去是線性在拖有時候碰到海水會有些干擾等等那就我們看到的計畫其成從2018年起案至今"},{"start":4141.345,"end":4169.861,"text":"都還是沒有籌獲到任何的就脫勢非但二逼從2018年起案至今是零籌獲原因是什麼就是它剛開始出來的時候測評好像有點問題不過現在這個測評已經過了所以預計在今年的年底以前全數會交易全數一次交過嗎因為已經六、七年了好像是它生產出來的品質沒有達標了"},{"start":4170.661,"end":4183.961,"text":"這個是屬於我們三項重大延宕的裡面其中一款但是現在測評過了之後應該是在第四季也就是年底之前應該會全數交易他測評沒過是美軍那邊測的?不是我們嗎?"},{"start":4186.144,"end":4207.71,"text":"所以是美國的製造商托斯2B製造出來美軍做評判把關徹底沒有過通通退貨重來然後後來再重新再改進之後呢那現在在年底以前會全數交易所以這個案子在今年底應該可以結案全部都可以取得是全部的托斯2B是那另外兩個案子呢"},{"start":4209.131,"end":4224.811,"text":"另外一個F16那個就您理解了現在就是說要在今年的第10屆產出第二架原型機之後做飛行測試那我們還是要求在2026年年底全速交運好 相為細節我有空再跟部長請教"},{"start":4225.572,"end":4226.992,"text":"謝謝王定宇委員 謝謝部長接下來有請林楚瑩委員"},{"start":4266.347,"end":4269.049,"text":"謝謝主席。主席有請顧部長。來,部長請。這領委很好。"},{"start":4277.096,"end":4283.218,"text":"部長早安喔賴清德總統身為我們的這個三軍統帥那麼他在這個陸關的百年校慶當中特別點到就是要分清楚中華民國跟中華人民共和國這是互不隸屬國軍捍衛中華民國的決心絕對是必須要貫徹的這個部分本席予以非常大的肯定"},{"start":4299.725,"end":4315.561,"text":"但是他後面講到絕不接受首戰及終戰這樣的一個說法馬上就招到了馬英九辦公室的批評但是本席特別去找了一下首戰及終戰到底是從哪裡出來的不知道部長你知道首戰及終戰這句話是從哪裡出來的嗎?"},{"start":4317.903,"end":4341.879,"text":"我只知道就是說所戰及中戰是一種投降主義也就是說認為一開始打仗那我們就要想定這個可能的中戰那我就覺得我們是防衛作戰我們要有寸土必爭的決心那強化自我防衛能力然後以逐步削弱這個共軍侵台的這些能力然後最後的讓他沒有辦法完成侵台的這個目標好"},{"start":4342.739,"end":4348.462,"text":"那麼本席其實是比較只有媒體的反應來講那部長當然是講出了首戰集中戰它的到底它的內容是什麼但是呢我現在要來講的是既然我們在國會詢答當中不能夠隨意扯謊那我就找出到底真相在哪裡首戰集中戰到底是哪裡來的現在馬辦是說首戰集中戰是蔡英文總統時期的國防政策的報告我同意"},{"start":4370.214,"end":4398.302,"text":"但是這是我方的策略嗎?我不同意其實我個人 應該說我不同意是我個人要拿出真相基本上在2018年中共政軍發展評估報告當中確實這是我們國防安全研究院的報告但是在第56頁當中他所寫出來的是中國強調首戰集中戰讓美軍衛到戰事已定言下之意"},{"start":4399.571,"end":4428.252,"text":"部長這裡頭寫的雖然是2018年還沒上任所以這份報告寫的首戰集中戰應該是中國也就是解放軍的策略對吧?所以當今天現在馬辦執行長蕭旭辰說這是賴總統指責蔡英文總統時期的投降主義嗎?跨著剛剛您所說的說法這是不是丟哥倒菜兜是不是一個偷換概念又或者是因為這上面是"},{"start":4429.033,"end":4435.617,"text":"反體字他們看不懂,他們只看得懂簡體字嗎?不然為什麼明明白白寫著這是中國強調首戰集中戰但他現在卻說這是蔡英文總統時期的研究報告所以認為蔡英文總統是所謂蔡規賴不遂你覺得這樣說法合理嗎?"},{"start":4447.993,"end":4469.96,"text":"跟委員報告所戰即終戰這應該是中共主觀的一個期待一廂情願的一個想法所以這個這樣子的一個想法跟我們寸土匕首的這樣子的一個決心我想不一樣那國防院的報告引述的應該是共軍他們"},{"start":4471.821,"end":4492.309,"text":"所認為的所認為的那我這邊了解好像是共青在98年1998年的九陽軍報就有提到這樣的一個文章那這樣子的一個說法是他們的他們認為他們預期想要達到的目標或是對台的軍事策略是嗎是是"},{"start":4493.129,"end":4521.443,"text":"好,所以我希望就是說在這個部分部長能夠就像您剛剛所講的真、正確的傳達出來因為畢竟喔現在很容易喔然後我們沒有講過的話塞到我們嘴巴裡面就變成好像是我們的報告提出了我們的想法不是這是指中國他們對於台灣策略的想定而不是中華民國國防部是吧"},{"start":4523.304,"end":4542.536,"text":"接下來呢當然部長上任以來做了很多的軍務革新我特別也跟我的辦公室我們整理了一下包括取消傳統刺槍術廢除軍官休假回報然後官士兵出國就可以不用跟團包括安全檢核管制方式以及媒體到這兩天都還在講的這個免踢正步只要齊步就好了"},{"start":4546.499,"end":4553.084,"text":" ８然後作戰戰術回歸參謀長：那麼政府主觀留職規定恢復常態我相信這個都是美意因為我們希望所謂形式化的管理可以免就像您所說的我們用檢法的方式但是現在很怕就是上有政策下有對策本席呢最近接到了一些不少的這個抱怨或者是說在網路上找到一些大家所謂的上的上面的政策"},{"start":4574.298,"end":4595.415,"text":"每議但是執行到下端之後是不是到基層之後就出現了其他的對策好像變成只改了名字但是該做的還是不能少包括定期回報就變成主動回報或者是回報群組就改一個名字或是互助回報組就會雨後春筍"},{"start":4596.135,"end":4600.397,"text":"因為時間有限我想問一下就是其實在我們的國軍、官軍、士官、士兵、休假、請假規則或是我們的國軍軍紀維護實施要責裡面其實都沒有所謂要定期回報或者是主動回報這樣的一個項目其實只是都是一些安全提醒那我希望部長可不可以在這裡我們真的明確的給他講一下不要說今天部長的美意"},{"start":4622.609,"end":4651.199,"text":"打了折然後變成是換了個名義然後讓基層的士官還是覺得說基層的弟兄覺得說哎呀感覺上美意但是我無福消受啊部長跟委員報告我也聽到有一些反應那我因此我有在我們的內部會議裡面也再次的要求那所以在6月6號人事通報令的另一班全軍具體執行的時候呢"},{"start":4651.659,"end":4671.826,"text":"也就是說這個目前的執行的狀況已經納入內部管理督導這個時機來做驗證也就是說他不要再加任何額外其他的規定來做一個限制那希望就是說但是你如果發生什麼事情當然要回報這個"},{"start":4673.598,"end":4681.345,"text":"好 所以言下之意就是出事了要講一下是這樣子嗎然後但是一切平安就沒消息就是好消息可以有辦法這樣嗎還是說現在你所看到的這個主動回報啦或是回報群組啦該怎麼樣來處理或是該怎麼樣來進行有效的管理因為我覺得"},{"start":4694.477,"end":4695.218,"text":"拜託部長,你怎麼看?"},{"start":4720.701,"end":4733.61,"text":"我想我們就不要再一定要減低這個基層官兵的負荷那我在這裡面要求就是說希望不要再額外的律定其他的規定來做限制那只有說"},{"start":4735.611,"end":4761.887,"text":" ﹝延期官兵遇到狀況﹞才需要主動回報我希望能夠做到這樣子好 謝謝部長很明確地點出來那就是不要再增加基層官兵的負荷也不要說我們改了一個名字變成是不用定期回報變成主動回報然後就是不要回報但是面對突發狀況或是意外狀況的時候必須做有效的溝通是這個意思嗎是是好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":4766.81,"end":4787.756,"text":"好,謝謝林楚瑩委員,謝謝部長接下來有請陳永康委員,謝謝有請部長有請部長,謝謝"},{"start":4795.536,"end":4806.95,"text":"是,陳委員好部長早今天聽取了這個有關特別預算的執行經過那裡面有一些部分我提出建言提供參考這邊有請中科院院長"},{"start":4815.063,"end":4828.488,"text":"立法院在110年制定的海空戰力提升這個採購的特別條例是在111到115年要完成那這裡面的項目特別提到有海軍高效能艦因為這個攻進延宕我想這個"},{"start":4833.431,"end":4856.031,"text":"委員長,我們對海軍的這個STER雷達這個歷史源源從當初的STER雷達荷蘭的然後併到法國的公司那由法國的公司再到美國登記那現在由美國的公司拿到合約再交給子公司結果它的量能產值不足所以延宕"},{"start":4857.412,"end":4871.278,"text":"現階段當然一到六都已經交了我們拿這個特別要做一個案例就是在第二階段的七到十二的時候要特別注意因為部長在這個採購合約您是專家我們當初簽這個約啊你簽約的對象絕不是子公司嘛"},{"start":4872.438,"end":4872.798,"text":" ８提供答案："},{"start":4897.711,"end":4898.491,"text":" ．二、邀請國防部報告．"},{"start":4924.252,"end":4937.568,"text":" ﹖第二、本案現在進入第三年了﹖五年的期爭﹖因為軍售、商售快速獲得﹖我們現在除了裝備的獲得﹖面臨的另外一個挑戰﹖也請部長注意就是﹖國軍的邊線比80%﹖這是"},{"start":4941.414,"end":4965.423,"text":"一般概念很多單位是低於這個所以新武器新裝備尤其是海巡現在他也強調他是第二海軍他也要在船上的他的這個巡防艦上加裝這個海軍的武器由海軍籌購暫時加這個員額海軍有沒有額外的員額來那平常海軍跟海巡的橫向協調就是掛舖會協商的時候"},{"start":4970.097,"end":4997.463,"text":"．中的準則教範．會面臨一個很大的挑戰．舊裝備的更替．面臨戰術概念的更新．後勤維保的複雜．相對在裝備操作手冊．準則教範．維保紀令都在編修情況下．非常的繁瑣．那國軍又有於人力的受限．能夠參加這些工作．會產生一種惡性循環．所以人員的招募．是另外一個重點．也就是說．"},{"start":4998.683,"end":4999.704,"text":"另外,另外我們"},{"start":5031.878,"end":5054.665,"text":"我特別提到就是我們講的共同圖像就是COP那麼由於海巡要加裝飛彈那麼他要海軍的人派上去那海巡的艦長並沒有參與過我們的國軍的準則教範甚至只參的訓練那在這個跟聯合作戰構想的時候如果沒有一個共同圖像"},{"start":5055.814,"end":5056.074,"text":" ８提供答案："},{"start":5081.66,"end":5109.207,"text":"另外中科院本身我看到今天的報告就是說我們的半藥產量已經進步了這數字就不念了但是還有一個5%到16%的落差我提醒因為這個尤其是半藥這個製程中間我曉得這個院長也很重視安全我們的風險控管Risk management更重要而不是傷後Damage control我如何能夠消除人員的損傷"},{"start":5110.751,"end":5119.204,"text":"委員的安全要幫他特別保險這個是非常重要的因為尤其是在這個火炸藥的攪拌這個過程中間特別提醒注意"},{"start":5122.093,"end":5144.949,"text":"那麼奉展專案當然是希望在2026年能夠順利的完成那因為空軍的這個飛行員的座艙比目前短時間還沒有辦法提升我們是不是要一方面培訓新的飛行員的量要加大二方面由現在轉型過來的飛行員可能從機種換裝原來的過來這個速度要加快我請一下參謀長就說您認為一個"},{"start":5147.551,"end":5150.893,"text":"委員提到這F16飛行員訓練的問題其實我們沒有一個確實的具體的數字來做規範但一般的訓練來講它大概完成我們三個階段的訓練就可以達到我們的戰力的需求那後續會在它飛行生涯裡面持續的精進它的戰術技能"},{"start":5176.725,"end":5205.199,"text":"我們希望您這邊幫空軍整體規劃我們的座艙比我不談數字必須要提升因為這個負荷太重再加上一部分飛行員的流失所以這是一個非常重要的專案我們是全力配合也支持但我本席站在國防委員會角色的立場來看我們不只是協度建言當然在很多執行過程中力道不夠集中或者是還有時程"},{"start":5206.561,"end":5211.513,"text":"進度水平落後的時候我們要作為督導那最後我們提出一個"},{"start":5213.476,"end":5239.732,"text":"國家安全戰略國家安全戰略的終極目標是和平必戰我們的方法是強軍備戰手段是能戰止戰就是目的、方法、手段我希望國防部不要把這三個名詞混淆我們現在在推動國家安全戰略希望明確定定那麼後面在其他的這個會議中間我們再提出建言這邊提出的建議給部長做參考以上謝謝"},{"start":5240.814,"end":5260.669,"text":"好,謝謝委員。剛剛委員所指教的,我們會後會一一再跟委員做說明,像比如說F16的座長筆的這個部分,我也聽過他們大概兩次的報告了,應該都有在積極的準備當中,這樣子。那謝謝委員,我想我們會後會一一再跟委員做一個充分的解釋,這樣子。"},{"start":5261.701,"end":5280.473,"text":"另外中科院有關STER雷達那個部分對於下一個階段就是7到12的那個合約對於美國製造公司的子公司那段一定要釐清要求要求因為這次對我們是一種保障謝謝謝謝陳永康委員謝謝部長那接下來有請黃仁委員"},{"start":5299.824,"end":5301.909,"text":"我們先請一下中科院的院長"},{"start":5312.313,"end":5337.822,"text":"為因應海空戰力提升計畫人員的任用及後期安排請教一下院長在111年開始執行海空戰力提升計畫為了海空戰力提升計畫是否有增加人力?增加多少?尤其是科技之類的人數有多少?"},{"start":5338.59,"end":5358.257,"text":"跟委員報告我們依照這個因為為了運營海空戰力提升我們向國防部申請了大概1200位這個定期契約那現在依照實際的需求我們禁用了大概900位900位大部分是以技術員來做組裝的為主大概是這樣"},{"start":5361.471,"end":5381.278,"text":"另外就是你這個定期的契約是屬於不定期還是屬於定期的?定期的。有分幾年?有分為一到五年都有。最多到五年。最短的是一年,一年期。因為海空戰力提升計畫"},{"start":5383.064,"end":5400.379,"text":"是非常的龐大那尤其在飛彈部分的全由中科院的負擔產生的量能這是產生的一個製造的責任當年在立法院有不少委員擔心中科院的生產量能尤其是人力的部分"},{"start":5402.16,"end":5428.038,"text":"為了讓計畫能夠順利完成衝科院應該要擴大的來這個增加能力這是一個本來你們在生產量能的時候就是應該增加這個這個能力但是有一些問題我必須要必須要跟跟院長講一下那個115年海空戰力提升計畫到期之後"},{"start":5430.194,"end":5438.921,"text":"這些人才到中科院的關係終將終止剛剛王定一委員也特別有質疑這個問題"},{"start":5441.783,"end":5465.362,"text":"這些不管是定期的一年到五年之後那人才的流失能不能留住優等的人才留住那這個就看你們自己本身一定要考量一定要考量留住人才那過去裡面有個案例在當年我國研發這個IDF"},{"start":5466.643,"end":5492.598,"text":"後來因為美國突然賣我國的F16的戰機所以IDF的產量減半那參與的人數都被大舉的裁員其中有100多個都被韓國聘用所以提升了他們的科技戰力的部分"},{"start":5493.058,"end":5512.09,"text":"所以這個就是我們警示如果我們今天我們企業的這一些人員到期應該在他的整個過程裡面要留住人才而不是要讓他定期之後我們應該就讓他就犧牲掉了讓其他的"},{"start":5513.511,"end":5530.693,"text":"國際的這一些人才培訓或者是這一些企業都已經正在盯住我們現在中科院這一些如果它倒起之後可能會被吸收那我們這邊如何因應留住這個人才"},{"start":5531.642,"end":5553.487,"text":"國防部報告簡短來報 這個好 這個這是我們最重要 謝謝委員關切當然第一個 我們金融人一定要合乎合法 這合法那我們也考量到110年結束之後怎麼辦 所以說我們用定期契約來招 就是怕以後工作減少的時候 這個人員維持是很困難 但是我們現在就有個配套措施"},{"start":5554.147,"end":5578.351,"text":"我們這些表現好的定期人員我們有幾個方案第一個只要考機要夾等然後必須在三分之一我們會配合各年度像中科院一年大概介齡退伍的是250到300人左右我們就利用這個差額來依我們的實際狀況來做個彈性的禁用所以是第一個第二個我們也鼓勵他們能夠在招考"},{"start":5579.151,"end":5579.331,"text":"拜託國防部部長"},{"start":5604.418,"end":5609.24,"text":"國防部提交的立法院的報告指出目前進行中的對美重大競購案中只有托四飛彈"},{"start":5625.985,"end":5640.818,"text":"還有F-16、F-16V、F-16CD還有布拉格的拐動採購三項的延宕甚至海馬式火箭和標槍飛彈兩項提前交運那對於這樣的一個延宕那你能不能舉例這幾項"},{"start":5649.893,"end":5675.475,"text":"跟委員報告我之前有在媒體詢問的時候有回答就是說我們都是依照這個第一版的發價書所定的這個期程來決定它原諒與否那也許在之前的這個整歸書的時候我們也許定的時程會比較短但事實上到了美軍給我們美方給我們這個第一版的發價書它的時程可能拉得比較長"},{"start":5676.015,"end":5691.032,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5691.832,"end":5704.737,"text":" ﹏發價書所定的期程來決定它延宕與否﹏那有些期程確實拉了比較長﹏那所以才會提到說現在按照發價書延宕的話大概就三個一個就是剛剛講的托斯2V的飛彈然後"},{"start":5706.118,"end":5726.254,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5726.834,"end":5747.56,"text":"根據資料裏面對台的台售武器的延宕交貨總共有19筆金額大概220億美元甚至拖到2027甚至不等另外就是今年的5月我們許延樸副部長"},{"start":5752.099,"end":5771.688,"text":"也曾說就美國對台經受延宕累積金額達到190億美元做出回應表示臺美的這樣的一個問題是相當的重視但是在你在立法院總執行的時候你說這個是正常的"},{"start":5772.848,"end":5789.005,"text":"正常什麼是在上週自己說目前交貨延宕金額約為190億美元結果給立法院的報告突然表示一切正常到底怎麼一回事你來回答一下好不好跟委員報告我想沒有說"},{"start":5789.825,"end":5813.611,"text":"以前剛我跟委員報告的就是確實是有三項的延宕的這個事實我剛已經解釋就是我們都是以第一版的發價書那後來即使發價書修改我們還時辰把它拉的話我們還是把它列為延宕所以我給你機會表示啊你在總諮詢的時候你達到的跟這個喜鹽埔沒有我在總諮詢也是"},{"start":5815.592,"end":5816.092,"text":"謝謝黃仁委員接下來有請馬文君委員謝謝"},{"start":5845.87,"end":5847.317,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請郭部長請部長,謝謝"},{"start":5857.166,"end":5876.021,"text":"部長您上任以後其實有放寬了很多的一些對於我們國軍的一些管制還有包括管理訓練等等不過我們剛剛看到一則消息就是有一個海軍的上兵他跳船說不想當兵了這一個新聞部長不曉得看到了沒"},{"start":5880.667,"end":5905.947,"text":"海軍有跟我報告了那他目前掌握的狀況是怎麼樣已經上岸他自己游上岸了知道為什麼嗎因為你今天這個應該算是志願役的因為義務役才剛第一天不可能所以以志願役他過去其實應該也接受過訓練那發生這樣的事情有沒有初步掌握是什麼樣的問題"},{"start":5907.536,"end":5926.18,"text":"報告委員,他是108年上船到現在將近快4年7個月到8個月,那我們也積極的輔導他,那他其實平常表現的部分都還算正常,但是有一些個人一些的一個小問題,那我們單位也積極在輔導他。"},{"start":5929.061,"end":5941.886,"text":"最近的話目前的實際狀況我們要再看已經跟他做服訪可能對他的未來的繼續服役他有一些需要再跟家裡面跟單位再做溝通因為已經上船四年多老實說你說他不想當兵或者發生這樣跳船的事件這個非常嚴重尤其對於整個國軍的形象所以儘速可以釐清到底是什麼樣的問題然後因為他是比較近還可以有回來"},{"start":5955.311,"end":5963.927,"text":"那如果發生在其他的狀況底下是不是又會有造成很多智商或者什麼其他的狀況這個部分競速有沒有可能是刻意為止?"},{"start":5970.199,"end":5970.499,"text":"接下來我們請教部長"},{"start":5989.099,"end":6000.137,"text":"因為部長我們最近在您說不用回報或者像刺槍術啊其他的這些部分都放寬以後那如果不要回報發生重大問題的時候還要不要連坐?"},{"start":6003.816,"end":6022.283,"text":"我們希望我們讓官兵能夠掌握他自己的自律這個是比較重要所以要不要連坐因為過去是因為長官就是怕說你有時候你在外面發生了什麼樣的狀況那上面的可能還要接受懲處那既然你要放寬然後他又不需要回報那這個部分需不需要一併的考量"},{"start":6028.945,"end":6051.544,"text":"因為他如果在外面都必須自律然後自己去做決定的時候而且沒有人管他發生問題或者發生重大案件的時候那要不要連坐因為在外面發生我個人是部長有沒有一併的考量因為當你在放鬆這個的時候我個人不贊成這樣子的一種連坐的方式我想是不是特別所以連坐還是會"},{"start":6052.745,"end":6068.404,"text":"委員好 我是聯誼次長跟委員報告我們整個休假在著重自主的管理然後遇到有事情的那簡單說就好了因為你現在放寬了嘛對然後重點事情一定要回報那我們現在是通過所謂重點事情大概是什麼樣的狀況就是說他在外面遇到車禍"},{"start":6069.605,"end":6088.616,"text":" ﹏或是說發生跟家庭有很大糾紛﹏這些重大的事情還要跟部的來做回報﹏那我們協助來處理﹏那我們現在的重點就是在理營宣教﹏我們在理營宣教的時候會跟所有的官兵弟兄講清楚哪些可以做﹏沒關係,因為我們現在只是提出來就是說當你在修正一個"},{"start":6089.036,"end":6116.886,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6117.126,"end":6132.641,"text":"很簡單跟委員報告就是你宣教我們一定要宣教只要幹部宣教了我們就不會做連做相關的處分那接下來他就是自主管理的部分以上報告好就這個部分我們希望他都是有一併的一些考量因為我們"},{"start":6133.442,"end":6155.089,"text":"部長因為我們現在還是有刺刀啦那你刺刀術你不訓練那總是像其他國外其實它還有一些戰鬥一些相關的比較先進的跟委員報告我一再的強調傳統的刺槍術跟近戰的格鬥這兩個是不同的也就是說我們要去除的是表演性質的刺槍術"},{"start":6156.189,"end":6166.993,"text":"那現在有包括槍械包括身上所配的刺刀包括隨手可得的任何武器包括跟他進行搏擊這個都屬於近戰格鬥的項目這個部分我們都要維持住還是會維持嗎因為其實大家聽到"},{"start":6174.116,"end":6186.305,"text":"部長說出來的時候大家都會覺得說只講了前半段後半段沒了阿不然還以為刺刀要拿來消水因為我一直一直在強調說你傳統的刺槍是不是在那邊這個我們都當過兵我們都知道傳統的這個就這個部分我們當然還是希望他還是要有一個完整的因為畢竟我們現在整個政策還有現在國家的大環境其實是有風險的我們怎麼樣加強或者更嚴謹"},{"start":6203.257,"end":6213.939,"text":"因為你又把法令又限縮得更嚴重可是好像在管理或其他的訓練又更鬆散這是一個實戰化具有實用性的訓練我們贊成與時俱進接下來我想要請教部長因為剛剛有特別提到而且在今天的報告裡面有說我們在對美採購的"},{"start":6228.831,"end":6247.244,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6247.884,"end":6254.727,"text":"其實我們所有的延宕並不是像剛剛講的說第一封的發架書因為有很多包括我們在美國國防新聞週刊還有華爾街日報的報導裡面其實都很清楚的寫到台灣軍方向美國下單採購的武器裝備面臨延遲交貨的狀況這個美方其實他們當時也講過而且包括AIT的處長在最後一次在台的在台灣的記者會也提到"},{"start":6277.597,"end":6280.998,"text":"因為我們不管是刺針飛彈、魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷海馬斯、高機動多管、火箭系統等等其實它那時候高達220億美元都是延遲的所以其實大概如果以目前為止它應該算時間更長了你不能因為把它的期程往後延比如說魚叉飛彈那時候用"},{"start":6303.644,"end":6305.105,"text":"美國的國政軍界智庫都承認對台軍售都有延宕我們希望在國會的時候是給大家更正確的訊息"},{"start":6329.026,"end":6355.134,"text":"他不只3案而且我們對美軍售也不只18案少說光從預算書翻開至少25案以上跟委員報告簡單報告一下就是說智慧國會的程序完之後那大家都希望盡快的拿到武器可是就這方面我們確實是看到他軍售的交貨提成明顯的拉長所以才所有的這個國會議員或者是媒體跟智庫都會把這種現象視為延宕"},{"start":6357.375,"end":6370.55,"text":"但是呢我們最後拿到這個第一版的發價書的時候他確實就我們原來預期的一件案的整歸數是有落差所以大家都會印象上會覺得說那他的第一版的發價書部長"},{"start":6372.352,"end":6382.101,"text":"因為我們在編預算的時候他已經把期程寫出來了所以我們是按我們自己的預算上面下去看的那這個部分對我們來說它就是延宕比如說你現在說兵凶戰危很快可能會發生什麼樣的狀況你從5年延到10年你從3年延到8年其實對我們來說都是延宕而且到目前為止連一個都還沒有到手"},{"start":6395.513,"end":6401.318,"text":"所以因為美國也很清楚的講到說因為俄烏戰爭因為疫情的關係所以他延宕這個理由其實我們是可以接受可是對我們來說對我們的國防安全影響甚具這個部分應該要據理力爭而不是他說什麼就什麼而且我們在這裡還幫他粉飾說我們延宕的只有三案"},{"start":6415.49,"end":6438.128,"text":"我們沒有幫他分析但是委員的指教是對的我們一定要跟他距離力爭就是說那個發家書跟他智慧國會那最後我們整歸師的部分要跟這個發家書的這個期程不能夠落差太大這一點我們一定要跟他進行溝通因為我們希望給我們看的報告是正確的啦而不是說用其他的方式然後去做一些轉換那因為時間的關係我就一點點跟主席接一些時間齁"},{"start":6442.691,"end":6450.497,"text":"因為目前站在部長旁邊的這一位很快應該7月份想要去接中科院的院長是不是媒體已經有報導了"},{"start":6460.316,"end":6484.065,"text":"應該是因為今天的報告裡面就說中科院在張院長的帶領之下尤其我們的蔡前總統其實也一直稱讚說我們中科院不管在武器裝備在很多的研發不管在各方面的一個計畫進程都非常的好而且甚至還超前那既然這麼好為什麼他第二任的任期還有一年半就要把他換掉"},{"start":6485.513,"end":6499.281,"text":"跟委員報告我想我非常非常的肯定章院長的過去的相關的這個作為跟努力那現在我想他還會我們還會借重他所以我們會"},{"start":6501.323,"end":6512.777,"text":"拜訪他到這個他應該有在有的位置在中科院裡面不容易在這裡講清楚啦只是因為我覺得說報告跟你在用人的狀況還有未來未來其實還有很多"},{"start":6517.322,"end":6529.76,"text":"我們希望中科院存在的目的還有價值還特別給他法人化很重要的一個因素是因為他不管是研發人才還有核心技術都可以整合延續當時我們的飛彈的經驗就是這樣來的"},{"start":6532.824,"end":6533.284,"text":"我高度的期待張院長繼續在中科院幫忙我們"},{"start":6554.036,"end":6555.097,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請部長來,部長請"},{"start":6588.081,"end":6615.364,"text":"是徐委員好部長好昨天黃埔建軍百年是中華民國的大事情我們都在而且我們也都非常佩服我們國軍的努力當然我們賴清德總統的講話也是字字句句都被外界斟酌尤其是他提到首戰及終戰是一個投降主義我想要問一下部長您知道首戰及終戰這句話是誰在研究的嗎?"},{"start":6618.246,"end":6631.651,"text":"剛剛林委也有問到,首戰及終戰據我所知是在最早在共軍在98年的解放軍報認為就是說首戰及接戰及新式就發表在首戰"},{"start":6633.092,"end":6650.564,"text":"所以是我們在研究中共它對於台灣如果今天它要進行武統的話它要怎麼樣做策略而我們看到他們這樣的策略想定之後我們自己要想那我們要怎麼應對這樣的策略部長我說的您認同嗎?"},{"start":6651.224,"end":6661.966,"text":"所以我們因為首次作戰嘛當然我們就一定要堅守我們當然我想全台灣沒有人說這個要不堅守的那包含您剛講的很對從我們民國98年的國防報告書裡面呢就已經有這樣子的討論了那當時這個報告書裡面是在講這個木兵相關的"},{"start":6673.649,"end":6700.331,"text":"他裡面怎麼說的呢他說中共的軍事專聯裡面強調的是速戰速勝、首戰決勝再來呢有一位我們大概應該有很熟的叫做陳明通博士他的論文題目叫做中共攻台軍事策略思維變遷在二次波灣戰爭之後他也寫到了首戰及決戰的速戰速決局勢這個是中共"},{"start":6700.831,"end":6729.227,"text":"如果他有一天要武統的話他們希望的策略所以這完全是中共的說法這不是我們台灣人的說法也不是我們台灣人的想定所以當在我們台灣包含我們的國軍沒有人知這是一個中共的想法不是我們的想法的時候拿出說首戰及終戰這樣的投降主義大家不能接受我想在場的所有包含我們黃埔的士兵都一頭吐水我沒有人來接受啊"},{"start":6729.767,"end":6754.563,"text":"所以我想請問一下部長喔賴總統這樣講的說法您所看到的有人在認同說因為首戰及終戰所以我們不要跟中國大陸開戰我們如果今天中國大陸來對我們開戰的話我們要直接宣布投降有這樣賴清德總統所謂的投降主義派的話可不可以幫我們點名一下"},{"start":6756.007,"end":6767.736,"text":"我想總統主要在強調的就是我們要有自我防衛的能力這個我們都認同這個我們都認同但是我想他演講的這個意思主要主要意思是這樣嘛但是因為他的說法就會讓大家揣測說你是不是認為有一些人"},{"start":6772.139,"end":6785.586,"text":"他認為中共打來我們就投降他反對這樣子的說法那如果有這樣子的一個揣測的話那我們就想知道啊有這樣的說法有這樣的想法的人到底是誰我要陪賴總統一起罵他陪郭部長一起罵他我是願意的"},{"start":6790.188,"end":6792.751,"text":"我們來看一下因為昨天在黃埔的時候我們也很關心我們整個部長有影片嗎?"},{"start":6805.487,"end":6830.995,"text":"我們播一下影片好不好這是第一個影片我們可以看一下部長您還有旁邊這個吳釗燮、顏德發跟韓國瑜院長跟總統來看一下我們這個踢著正步的軍人朋友們這個進行了讓大家覺得非常感動的儀式等一下鏡頭會再回到台上當這些踢正步的軍人們只有這樣嗎?"},{"start":6832.595,"end":6842.56,"text":"那你可能放錯了齁但是再放另外一個好不好第6年油電機器周澤雄代理Finally, the tech company made by the tech company"},{"start":6844.537,"end":6873.507,"text":"你放的是一樣的影片你有發現這件事嗎好總之呢那我直接用口述的好不好因為我們的這個助理他沒有放出影片來那基本上呢這個我影片會再傳給媒體朋友第一個狀況呢就是部長您在大家在就是比如說旁邊的軍官在敬禮的時候您有一點手足無措的情況就是偷看了一下隔壁的然後呢想說這個時候我應不應該敬禮這是第一點"},{"start":6874.187,"end":6899.983,"text":"第二點呢我們知道昨天有一個最感人的是我們有平均57歲的這個退役軍官他們組成了一個隊伍然後共同的來踢著正步經過的時候所有全場都給予他們掌聲包含賴總統包含韓院長再包含到所有台上的貴賓但是您當時呢沒有任何的舉措我想問一下部長當時的心情是什麼"},{"start":6901.001,"end":6916.401,"text":"跟委員報告您講的可能是兩段不同的對,兩段兩段一個部分是他先有一個向總統致敬取這個部分對那這個部分呢當時我想我舉扶手禮"},{"start":6917.142,"end":6937.517,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6937.597,"end":6942.04,"text":"但是我還是舉起來我懂我懂部長我覺得你很努力的在融入我們的軍隊這一點我也給你肯定但是我覺得類似這樣的狀況可能我們的包含我們的那個同仁"},{"start":6953.967,"end":6973.541,"text":"應該要在黃埔事前來跟我們部長好好做說明整個禮儀的過程否則被媒體拍下這樣子的一個影片大家會認為你對於軍隊管理是不夠熟悉的下一個問題也是剛才很多人都問過但是呢我一定要把這個陳情再給大家下一張投影片好不好下一張投影片再下一張"},{"start":6974.822,"end":6983.572,"text":"這是您在上任之後所做的一些這個改革那包含呢,裡面有一個這個是安全查核管制方式然後還有這個主要是回報的這個部分"},{"start":6989.458,"end":7009.739,"text":" ．廢除官兵休假回報．有事再回報即可．但這個事情．對於中階長官．在領導基層幹部來說．遇到了一個很大的難題．所以光是這一個禮拜．部長我必須告訴你．我們就是光我辦公室．就收到了十幾封的陳情書．我們來看一下所有的陳情好不好．你看．他說"},{"start":7011.881,"end":7031.599,"text":"我空軍防空部同學說他們營長解釋二四零零安全回報不用了但二一五零就請前需回報是否反應真的把國防部的命令當成放屁另外一邊講什麼呢不回報改成投票回報他直接在賴群組上面叫大家用投票的方式回報那還不是一樣再來"},{"start":7034.608,"end":7038.73,"text":"另外一個檢查宣導部長只有說取消回報沒有說取消每日視訊反查發明新名詞厲害吧然後請各單位由互助組長實施視訊反查更麻煩了本來只要寫個LINE而已他現在叫你要視訊然後還要幹嘛截圖回報感謝配合右邊"},{"start":7057.899,"end":7084.259,"text":"根據政戰部門的示意部長您的說法他自己在解釋欸每週休假呢並不是回報而是反查所以呢早就取這個安全回報在大棚部長就取消了啦這一次的人事不好意思我們主席再借我一分鐘我把這個念完好不好然後呢國防部長本身也只是表示取消安全回報故休假互助組反查並沒有取消後面還有嗎"},{"start":7085.481,"end":7096.554,"text":"就這四篇我最後想要請我們部長回答一件事情就好光是我辦公室一個禮拜我沒有把所有的都放上去因為我知道我的時間不夠類似這樣在國軍基層裡面您所下的指令他們不僅是沒有完全服從還自己善改"},{"start":7105.024,"end":7120.012,"text":"還把事情弄得更麻煩還用賴投票的方式要他們回復請問一下部長針對這種狀況你打算要怎麼處理請再要回答跟我們報告我已經在內部已經再度要求那如果還有類似的這個狀況我想我會嚴格來執行這樣"},{"start":7124.714,"end":7125.535,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是沈博洋委員"},{"start":7154.915,"end":7155.416,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長,謝謝來,部長請"},{"start":7164.738,"end":7189.155,"text":"好部長好那因為剛剛這個徐委員已經提到了就是說這一個改休假不合理回報這件事情所以呢這個部分呢我們就是快速帶過就好了就是說一開始在這個畢竟國訓改革不易啦那一開始休假回報這件事情呢也看到很多這個在匿名的這個板上面呢很多人就說很高興有這樣的一些回報"},{"start":7189.975,"end":7204.223,"text":"但是呢後來就是也出現了就是剛剛這一個學友委員提到的就是很多人有時候他們會自行這個去解讀這個命令那所以希望呢就是因為最早就提到檢法這件事情那希望呢之後還可以再繼續這一個那個"},{"start":7206.624,"end":7209.547,"text":"執行這項措施因為剛剛已經回答過學委員 這個部分我就跳過了接下來我想問一下葉士進的問題2023年的時候軍備局有說401場就是大概12億元的光放管這個光放管當時有說有不合格率達到85%"},{"start":7228.064,"end":7230.75,"text":"但後來有說這一個現在401新的這些新的採購入軍回復使用狀況均正常是不是能夠說明一下這個中間的過程是發生什麼事謝謝"},{"start":7244.477,"end":7265.234,"text":"議員好 我是秘密局局長跟你報告就是說我們前兩年確實方法案館我們無惡戰爭的確的那個到貨都比較不正常那這個案子我們王采緯在去年很多委員都關心過那自從去年以來我們新的案子我們對外採購的一萬兩千個我們是從"},{"start":7266.892,"end":7290.877,"text":"美國、法國現在來的品質都還不錯尤其我們的合格率都已經到達了85%跟90%以上那我們還有很多東歐的國家包括我們的友盟、捷克都有來投單相信這個情形我們從去年我們從王釗偉到很多委員都已經有關心這個問題目前我們的官方的採購的品質目前進度是正常的跟委員來做個回報"},{"start":7291.457,"end":7313.394,"text":"好,那我想再繼續問一下就是說呢因為今年的五月嘛又有在這一個我看有這一個夜市季的這個尋商公告啦那這件事情呢大概有這個也是五萬具由401之外想要尋找其他的那剛好聽到可能有美國、法國等等之類的那我知道我們自己是不使用這個中國製的這個相關的零件那我想問一下就是台灣的廠商呢"},{"start":7314.963,"end":7315.944,"text":"我問這個原因是因為我知道台灣一直以來也都有廠商在做"},{"start":7341.483,"end":7367.845,"text":"但是有兩個困境第一個困境就是說呢我們在找這些台灣廠商的時候我們是跟他拿成品還是說他的技術也要能夠交給軍方呢?我們是跟他拿成品當然包含後續的維保的料件還有後續的這些保固那第二個問題就是說呢在台灣的這些廠商他們有些他本來就直接做國外的案子他並沒有做這一個台灣國軍的案子"},{"start":7368.886,"end":7381.203,"text":"如果他來找台灣國軍的案子目前這個標準為何?因為在最早的時候我們在採購這個美國法國之前我們有遇到這個就是不合格率高的這個狀況那現在要怎麼去解決這個問題?如果是台灣的廠商來的話"},{"start":7383.973,"end":7407.132,"text":"目前我們因為本身401廠它在剛剛您委員質詢的這個第一階段的採購就是401廠製造的那401廠事實上是有相關的關鍵技術那我們會從我們在細分階段從這些仿商的過程我們會評估它整個的價格還有相關的品質是否依照這段需求"},{"start":7410.393,"end":7431.278,"text":"謝謝這是5月的媒體報導我想問一下美國這部分的驗收不合格我先不問這個我問第二個在第三代光泛館採購案第一標案被評選他說不合格的廠商同規格第二標案得標的廠商居然是前案被刷掉的廠商是不是能夠針對這件事情做一個回覆呢?"},{"start":7432.386,"end":7454.144,"text":"跟委員說明第一標被刷掉的是很多年了我們依照我們的採購法裡面的相關規定任何個標案它有沒有來承包我們的案子我們就是經過我們的國防採購室標準的一個規範當初它假如違反規定它被停權是停一年、兩年、三年都有相關的規範當時的原因是什麼當時的原因應該"},{"start":7456.165,"end":7482.174,"text":"當時的原因我們查了就是他當時的品質也是交不出來產量跟品質也是沒辦法通過的部分好那所以呢這一次因為我覺得畢竟是新聞報導所以有必要說明所以呢接下來就是如果剛剛像前面講的標準按照中戰需求都有一致的話那這一次第二次的這一次就一定要特別注意因為畢竟有發生過潛力然後我覺得這個是一定要注意的事那這一個全民防衛本來今天想問但我看時間實在是不太夠我這個先"},{"start":7484.452,"end":7501.068,"text":"我這個先稍微跳過一下我問一下無人機就是說無人機因為之前我看到有這個DIU這個我看到部長也有提到就是先進國防科技小組那應該是昨天的新聞還是前天的新聞有講到AI的一個運用那我當然知道AI的運用在這邊因為我看新聞報導得非常模糊說什麼"},{"start":7502.125,"end":7525.162,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7525.262,"end":7549.57,"text":"因為本來要試飛這件事情可能要陸地然後往這個海上飛可能要飛個100公里那這個飛的100公里就要到海峽中線了所以這個對大家來講也是非常的困難那目前來講看到雅創這一邊它這三個地方距離加起來看來是50那50這樣來回可能就只能用來回飛來去測這個100所以在這個部分不知道現在在測試的狀況"},{"start":7550.37,"end":7552.112,"text":"拜託我跟委員報告您所提問的無人機的性能是一個樣機的測試"},{"start":7566.372,"end":7570.995,"text":"這是在我們採購的標案裡面的第一階段包含到資格標裡面這個樣機的測試已經在6月份已經實施完畢了之所以在雅創實施是結合它相關的科技這個是驗證我們國內的產能它跟實際的作戰需求不一樣"},{"start":7589.687,"end":7613.806,"text":"最有利標．在評選出來以後．我們會依據作戰需求的場景來測試．不見得會是在雅創．這個剛好之前也在辦公室的時候有提到．就是要符合作戰需求．所以我這邊也有把這些標案的地方有把它寫出來．譬如說制空6小時．最大飛行速度31．這個在最早的第一次的時候．看起來都是一個個別的項目．但接下來如果要符合作戰需求的話．它應該要綜合測試嗎．"},{"start":7615.828,"end":7641.948,"text":"因為如果它不綜合測試它只是單單過了第7項或單單過了第12項這個對我們的作戰需求是沒有意義的那因為只剩一點時間我再建議一下就是說因為無人機它會有一些功率跟頻率的問題那即使是同一家廠商它有不同的比如說它是建載的、木貨的它的那一個頻率不同那不同的話呢其實這個都可能需要跟NCC來做協調所以呢這個就是之後跟NCC協調這件事情可能也要盡快進行因為已經到下面這個階段了"},{"start":7643.069,"end":7667.158,"text":"已經在連六的部分已經有把我們軍用演訓的這個頻率波段已經有相關匡列了謝謝委員太好了謝謝那謝謝主席謝謝部長所以我們那個頻率都OK了是OK好謝謝部長請回我們下一位羅美玲委員進行詢答那本席在這邊宣告洪森漢委員詢答結束我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":7674.358,"end":7675.92,"text":"謝謝主席。有請顧部長。來,部長請。是羅遠吼。"},{"start":7687.687,"end":7711.475,"text":"昨天是黃浦軍校建校100周年校慶當然這次的機會中國也是大規模的要邀請臺灣的退役官兵到廣州的黃浦軍校去做參訪原先傳出是要邀請將近3000名的官兵我想請教部長昨天有掌握到有多少人過去嗎?"},{"start":7715.446,"end":7716.436,"text":"這在你是不是說明一下?"},{"start":7723.727,"end":7746.933,"text":"這個部分在退府會嚴主委在回答的時候他有說大概是100位左右那是之前嘛之前還沒有就是還沒有過去之前說可能大約100位是昨天經過昨天之後我想國防部是不是也可以跟這個退府會這邊了解一下到底有多少人過去"},{"start":7747.873,"end":7766.204,"text":"那因為這次呢先前其實其他的委員其實也有稍微有之前我聽過他們就是有在問說他們除了去參訪之外參加這次的活動之外讓我們覺得可能要請國安單位或者是說請我們國防部這邊要留意的就是說"},{"start":7767.485,"end":7794.515,"text":"這些退役的軍人被帶到廈門去辦比如說居住證、敬老證、駕駛證、銀行卡等等因為辦理這些證件是不是需要他們的這些指紋、照片等等我在想這會不會有國安的疑慮這部分我們有掌握嗎?因為之前的報導是這樣昨天黃埔建銷100周年在結束了那你們所掌握到的有沒有相關像報導所提到的這樣子他們到那邊辦了各種的證"},{"start":7796.448,"end":7823.536,"text":"然後把自己的這個神武特徵呢可能你是上交給中國有沒有這樣子的狀況?有嗎?這些退軍人到中國去國防部完全還是說這次退府會的事情與你們無關你們好像對這部分完全沒有掌握的感覺我完全不知道無法掌握那就糟糕了"},{"start":7825.322,"end":7838.847,"text":"因為這個是退役的部分我們再跟那個輔導會那邊再聊一下所以這是輔導會的事情所以國防部這邊完全沒有退了之後就跟國防部就沒有關係了嗎?是這樣子嗎?我在想這應該不太對"},{"start":7850.012,"end":7869.046,"text":"昨天賴清德總統有提到說中華民國在哪裡黃埔精神就在哪裡甚至國民黨的朱立倫主席都說中華民國在哪裡黃埔精神就在哪裡可是我們看得出來有些退役金人對這個部分好像沒有認同我就覺得這是非常糟糕的一件事情"},{"start":7869.326,"end":7889.206,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7889.326,"end":7906.971,"text":"其實這是扣分的所以我在想這部分不單單這是那個退譜會的事情我想國防部都要來了解到底這些軍人退的軍人到了那裡去他們到底做了什麼事情然後對國家的安全有沒有影響我想國防部今天的回答就是讓本期還蠻失望的"},{"start":7910.173,"end":7928.223,"text":"因為我們主要是在以秘密離退人員的核定他附入管制的這個期間裡面從3年甚至一直到10年當然管制之後我們還是希望這些不要附入參加黨政軍的活動而有妨礙國家尊嚴的這個行為"},{"start":7930.137,"end":7946.197,"text":"就這個部分在離開這個管制的這個期限之後那我們還是會對這些退役的這些將領們我們來會與關切然後來跟他做充分的說明這樣子"},{"start":7946.738,"end":7969.248,"text":"是啊,我是覺得說這本來就是應該是國防部應該要有延續的這個關注而不是說他退役之後當然我們知道說他有一些限制的年限年限到了之後他們到中國去做什麼好像就與國防部無關好像就是跟輔導才是輔導會的這事情我想這部分真的是不"},{"start":7969.848,"end":7995.263,"text":"這個部分委員的指教我們會來跟退輔會好好的研議大家互相來協助因為這是跟國家安全有關係這部分應該是各個部會國安單位都是要來非常重視的部份大家都一起是國安單位的一員應該是我問到相關的單位應該都有一些認知而不是說這個是他們是退役軍人然後是跟退輔會有關係我覺得這是"},{"start":7996.243,"end":7997.043,"text":"除了這些退役軍官呢?"},{"start":8022.991,"end":8049.54,"text":"拜訪中國、接受他們的招待也好：或者是同戰也好：那最近也有一些像這個網紅都有透露就是說像中國呢用幾家酒的方式邀請台灣網紅到中國去其實類似這種他們中國利用各種的方式用各種的方式要來滲透台灣我想這都是國防部要特別留意的事情那再來還有一點我想請教的就是說像我們"},{"start":8050.42,"end":8052.581,"text":"但是你知道嗎?部長你知道嗎?就像台灣有好幾百萬人在用小紅書、用抖音"},{"start":8068.405,"end":8071.928,"text":"我想請問一下像中國它有一些假訊息或是大外宣然後經過像這個小紅書抖音來做這個傳遞那讓台灣的年輕人全面的接收這個訊息的話那我們要怎麼辦呢我們像國安單位也沒有辦法說到這些軟體去做一些澄清那怎麼處理呢這部分請問部長"},{"start":8096.049,"end":8103.623,"text":"跟委員報告就我的理解是這樣子因為我在國安會也待過我們這個是整個是跨部會的一個"},{"start":8104.742,"end":8128.614,"text":"一個協作的關係那麼整個認知作戰反認知作戰這樣子一個部分整個是一個全面性全政府都要來做的事情那國防部立場就是加入在這一個反認知作戰的這一環那我們著重的當然是在我們官兵部分的在媒體制度跟認知作戰宣傳的這一個部分要來著重"},{"start":8128.994,"end":8156.352,"text":"我們資通電軍這部分要如何再做監管比如說像有些他們在小紅書或抖音可能也有一些跟國安有關係的一些訊息的話我們有辦法去做一個監管嗎因為我們現在是全面在禁止使用這些軟體如果說經由這些小紅書或是抖音出來的這些假訊息我們的資通電軍是如何去掌握這裡面的內容呢請問"},{"start":8156.752,"end":8183.792,"text":"您是說對於我們的官兵在使用這些不是不是不是我是說我們的我們有一個自通電軍嘛是不是對我們有自通電軍我們是不是如何去掌握說像小猴叔抖音像民眾如果接收這些訊息的話然後是跟國安有關係的話你們是如何去掌握呢請問我想這主要是在國安那個政戰局的這一個那個文宣大文宣的部分來做一個掌握這樣是"},{"start":8184.272,"end":8203.575,"text":"跟委員報告我們如果有發現就是跟國防有相關的假訊息那我們會即時的去做一個澄清透過我們相關的文宣管道我們都會進行有沒有協作就中共協作的這樣子的一個激政"},{"start":8204.076,"end":8208.6,"text":"閱讀新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":8229.383,"end":8233.965,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是紅色岸委員紅色岸委員詢答結束我們休息五分鐘來紅色岸委員請請顧部長來部長請"},{"start":8260.66,"end":8273.397,"text":"是,黃委員好部長,這個我今天其實是想要來跟部長討論的還是是我們其實在這個很多我們軍職的人員那退伍以後的這個狀況"},{"start":8275.94,"end":8293.313,"text":"在1991年的波灣戰爭的時候我們其實看到這個美軍的後勤的司令其實其中有一個中將那他其實為了這個物流的管理那設計了整個條碼的系統那這個打完仗以後退役後他其實就到一個很知名的百貨公司去當副總"},{"start":8295.254,"end":8309.802,"text":"其實這是一個非常好的案例其實軍事相關的物流管理的經驗它其實就成為下一段質押的累積那我們今天在討論到的是這個軍職轉換的問題其實我們知道現在有很多軍校的學生他們從15歲、18歲進入"},{"start":8312.844,"end":8329.706,"text":"過去的想法是他其實退伍就退休了但是我們都很清楚知道現在狀況可能不是這樣我想給部長看一下這是我們從退伍會這邊拿到統計的資料在近三年的退伍人員裡面第一類的平均的人員退伍時間是41歲"},{"start":8331.808,"end":8355.371,"text":"第二類官兵63.7%平均退伍年齡26歲所以很明顯大家知道其實這個軍職只是他執牙的第一戰絕對不會是中戰我知道現在國防部花很多力氣在思考怎麼再去做招募其實這次不管執政黨也好在野黨也好大家都給很多的壓力"},{"start":8356.345,"end":8379.224,"text":"但我不知道部長知不知道其實有很多年輕人他其實不願重軍很重要的原因是因為他們會想到的不是只是報效國家這一段他想到的事情是如果他離開了軍隊以後他找下一份工作如果都會是覺得從零開始的話那沒有什麼重要的累積的話他就會開始思考那我到底要不要去"},{"start":8381.578,"end":8402.329,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":8402.915,"end":8412.522,"text":"不是退府會其實是國防部部長同不同意是這個在他軍里的生涯過程當中他"},{"start":8414.531,"end":8435.606,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8435.706,"end":8449.278,"text":"那當時這個軍民職業的對照他其實是一個很簡單的這個職業別的對照看一下螢幕上面他大概就把我們空軍的飛行員他大概就說你可以轉職去開民航機軍卡的駕駛那大概就說你可以轉民間卡車的執照"},{"start":8450.563,"end":8461.292,"text":"所以在這個狀況之下比如說我們野戰部隊裝甲兵就沒有對應的民間的職業了這是那時候我們發生的狀況所以當時這744項軍隊的職務裡面只有少數可以直接對應的狀況下其實當時這個計畫"},{"start":8468.197,"end":8493.052,"text":"最後是失敗告終的所以不然我現在談的不是簡單的職業對照是我們能不能參考其他部會這我也問過退輔會比方說在勞動部裡面他其實花了很大的力氣去找各個包括一些專家學者來針對他們職能內涵的轉換來拆分舉例來說他把它拆成幾個層次在主要職責上工作任務上跟這些工作任務背後需要什麼知識、技能"},{"start":8493.972,"end":8509.984,"text":"來做一個這樣子一個完整的對照表我們現在看到不只在勞動部包括在經濟部、教育部其實都有這樣子比較用科學的解析的模式去細分你工作的這個內涵的職能的部分目前我們看到其實坦白說好像"},{"start":8511.005,"end":8529.056,"text":"所有需求的部會裡面只有國防部還沒有建立這個職能基準的這樣的對照的分析再加上大家都知道其實軍隊其實比別的部會來的封閉的所以其他的民間公司很難想像我們這裡面一些官客到底是在做什麼我們這邊舉個例子如果你是一個裝甲營的營長"},{"start":8531.738,"end":8552.048,"text":"一個中小企業的老闆他看到你的履歷上面寫戰車營營長他大概想的事情是說我們又沒有坦克車所以你到我們這邊來要做什麼可是如果今天國防部可以協助他們把這個職能的內涵給分析清楚的話你大概就知道說其實一個營長他要管"},{"start":8552.728,"end":8580.239,"text":"四百多人的生活、演訓的任務甚至這個我們很多的戰車的維修調度這裡面包括很多重要的知能啊可能有領導力可能有運輸管理可能有人知可能有倉儲管理如果這樣子的專長跟專業一個人在一個營長上面都可以有的時候他如果我們國防部可以把這些所有的知能都分析出來寫在他的履歷來說的話我們相信他下一階段的職能轉換"},{"start":8581.872,"end":8609.012,"text":"很多企業的老闆就會完全看出不同的這個人背後的潛力甚至聘用的這個吸引力就會完全的不同部長同意嗎?是,我同意但是這個工作到目前為止其實大家談的很久其他部會都做了但我們現在看到反而是我們國防部跟退府會還沒做所以大概在一個多月前我其實也問過退府會退府會說目前那個顏德發"},{"start":8610.433,"end":8639.298,"text":"主委跟我說他們願意來做甚至他們說他們願意出錢所以我今天為什麼要在這個地方再問一次顧部長因為我們很清楚知道就算今天退府會出錢可是大部分的人力資源資料抱歉還是在國防部的手上所以國防部在這個事情上面是什麼態度我認為就是非常非常關鍵甚至我都認為比退府會更關鍵所以部長你覺得這些下面的工作你有沒有打算往這個方向來推動或怎麼推動"},{"start":8639.983,"end":8663.315,"text":"有,事實上跟委員報告因為我看到那個退伍會來這裡的時候就有提到說好像大院有希望他們提出一些方案出來我是六月初的時候先問了他們對,那我當時就跟原主委我有跟他講我就說國防部應該要跟退伍會來合作來做好這些事情"},{"start":8663.975,"end":8686.089,"text":"所以我事實上也了解我們現行的這個做法是沒有辦法達到這個崗委員的這個期待所以我現在會來積極的來建立這樣子你剛剛講的這個只能轉換它這個相關的這些不是那麼簡單的講就是說你的戰車營營長然後就對照到民間的這個"},{"start":8691.573,"end":8709.851,"text":"關聯的專長這樣子的部分應該是從他職涯的歷練上來看包括他後面的知能你能夠把他的知能給分析出來對,那不涉及秘密的這個情況之下那我們如何來做好這部分的工作不然我要提醒你其實這是一個非常非常龐大的工程"},{"start":8710.551,"end":8731.399,"text":" ﹏尤其是你們涉及到的軍種﹏跟你們涉及到的很多不同的工作崗位上面﹏是有很多不同的職能﹏我們今天在這邊談這件事﹏也不是希望大家吵吵的做﹏以我們看到勞動部﹏或者是教育部來說的話﹏他們做這個盤點的工作﹏是做了數年的工作﹏也不是一觸可擊就完成達成的事情﹏是真的"},{"start":8731.479,"end":8749.985,"text":"他們確實是這樣所以今天如果部長願意往這個地方開始當然我覺得給他可以很大的肯定可是我是希望說有沒有可能我們其實有一個節奏甚至是有一些優先比方說我們來看2023年新退的官兵大概一萬五千人裡面這個布號裝的戰鬥官科裡面站"},{"start":8751.245,"end":8751.265,"text":"委員．"},{"start":8778.294,"end":8803.208,"text":"指導出這一個部分我們到現在為止做連結之間的一個弱點的這個點就布泡裝的這個部分事實上背後的職能、知識跟他的經驗的累積是什麼這件事情我們要好好來檢討然後來跟民間職業做銜接不然我倒會聽出你願意往這個方向去可是我有幾件事情我想要我可不可以請你在一個月內跟退府會"},{"start":8803.948,"end":8826.075,"text":"你們可以討論一個你們在這個這麼大的計畫裡面你們的分工關係是什麼那一個月讓我們知道送到這個外交國防委員會讓我們知道你們的分工關係這裡面你們的協同關係是什麼這是第一點第二點我們也希望說是不是可以每三個月來跟我們立法院來報告一次你們這事情的進度三個月"},{"start":8829.497,"end":8846.135,"text":"我來跟退伍會好好地討論一下因為我事實上對這件事情是很重所以我才會跟原主委有講當然我退伍會是能不能夠跟國防部在這個部分做配合未來我們就三個月排一次專報他就會來"},{"start":8847.156,"end":8848.117,"text":"謝謝紅山委員 部長請回 我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":9207.895,"end":9210.696,"text":"好,我們恢復開會接下來進行詢答的委員張祺凱委員來,部長請"},{"start":9240.971,"end":9246.74,"text":"今天我們說國防,國防第一的重點就是臺灣的安全及資金一定要顧到,對不對?是我可以聽很多委員問你"},{"start":9254.841,"end":9279.049,"text":"首戰及終戰這個事因為我們總統說他說是一個投降主義不接受我聽到你答詢的時候你說的重點是要加強國防的防衛寸土必爭不會讓中共得逞是嗎?對嗎?你這個原則跟定位跟上個月來這邊答詢的邱部長邱部長我問他這個事"},{"start":9280.74,"end":9302.531,"text":"守戰及終戰,你說最高指導目標是必戰。您前後的國防部長立場是一樣的嗎?原則是一樣的嗎?一樣啊。沒有不一齁?備戰才能必戰嘛。備戰才能必戰。所以你把備戰做好才能必戰。是。所以沒有不一,兩個是一樣的。你是加強備戰所以可以必戰。啊邱部長在這講必戰是最高原則,是不是這樣?"},{"start":9303.567,"end":9326.548,"text":"因為要用實力有決心能力然後充分的準備讓這個中共不會冒進來避戰這個就是我們我想這個目標都是一致的目標一致那你的方法就是加強我們的國防跟防衛包括美國會支持我們我們有很好的這個盟邦"},{"start":9331.068,"end":9347.208,"text":"其中的一環,你的防衛裡面其中一環很重要是美國嘛部長會這樣問的原因是因為,來我們看下一題金融時報今天報道說習近平說美國要誘使北京來攻台灣但是他不會上當"},{"start":9348.755,"end":9370.921,"text":"你怎麼看這個事情?是在可能會覺得比較安心說中國大陸不會來打還是說中共那邊可能在分化我們在放假消息我們來加強自己的防衛跟委員報告我沒有辦法證實這個金融時報的報導說秘密確實有沒有講過這樣子的話但是我想要講的一點是中國一直不斷的"},{"start":9372.101,"end":9395.289,"text":"宣稱不放棄武力換台然後軍事的擴張一直在持續的進行而且加速進行當中那麼對於這一個台海的和平穩定現狀他也不斷的在以切香腸的方式來進行這一個片面的改變現狀我想這樣子的情況是所以他才是麻煩的製造者我想這是很清楚的"},{"start":9395.709,"end":9414.927,"text":"所以保定,不能夠因為金融時報是很有名的國際媒體而且他引述的是說這幾年四月習近平跟這個歐盟的執委會主席範德萊恩說的不能夠因為他講了這個話我們就鬆懈嘛,對不對?是,是他提了一個理由啊,他說什麼?他說習近平特別有說啊,他說"},{"start":9416.291,"end":9439.886,"text":"如果中國大陸跟美國發生衝突會破壞中國喜多的這個成就而且影響他2049年要實現他的偉大復興的這個目標這個有沒有說服力?沒有齁?你都沒有管他啊反正你就是加強我們自己防衛我們資金安全還可以得到是不是這樣?是啊我們一定要夠得到我們自己的自我防衛能力跟決心喔所以你不會因為金融時報這個報導也不會說他報導的是對"},{"start":9444.638,"end":9455.151,"text":"我們不能對中國有一個不切實際的幻想所以一定要準備好不要管別人怎麼講不能鬆懈那不能鬆懈有沒有一個辦法今天有美國的"},{"start":9461.853,"end":9488.786,"text":"評論家：國防評論家：他還說我們台灣是不是要招募非公民來從軍他說的是澳洲啦澳洲現在跟中國大陸關係有點緊張嘛他說的是澳洲現在允許當地居住至少12個月的永久居民去註冊來服役包括紐西蘭人而且擴大以後是英國人、美國人加拿大跟太平洋你作為國安部長你有沒有考慮過這個"},{"start":9491.776,"end":9509.33,"text":"這個看法怎麼看?你沒有考慮?還是完全沒有?兩國的國情我想不太一樣目前這一個部分還沒有在我們的思考範圍內所以我們不會去找非公民來當我們的...因為我們的從軍一定要中華民國的國民啊你這個要...那除非大院同意要進行修法立法院通過嘛現在就是有國際知名的這個評論人家在建議這個不類似我們考慮對不對?"},{"start":9519.711,"end":9526.034,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是賴子寶委員你相會期要來我們這裡嗎?不排除我很歡迎你你現在就可以來了沒有啦,會在這裡啦"},{"start":9551.673,"end":9553.361,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進,請顧部長來,部長請"},{"start":9560.798,"end":9588.103,"text":"賴委員好你好不是不是來部長這個剛才你已經回答了等一面回答了張委員問你習近平中共的總書記他說美國刺激我打台灣不上當這一句話這個是不是可以讓我們"},{"start":9589.994,"end":9602.364,"text":"你可以講我記得在這個地方陳明通接受我的質詢陳明通國安局長他說他保證蔡英文的任內兩岸不會打仗雖然後來蔡明硯有一點打臉他了說尊重他的講法可是事實上沒有打仗啊"},{"start":9614.022,"end":9640.942,"text":"你要不要藉這個習近平都這樣講的他不會上當因為以烏克蘭的例子就很清楚了俄羅斯被拖下水了接受美國的刺激去打了烏克蘭把自己拖垮了美國要用這樣的一個同樣的邏輯讓老共打台灣拖垮老共的實力他說不上當我們有沒有理由"},{"start":9643.479,"end":9646.38,"text":"說未來幾年兩岸不會打仗,你要這樣說嗎?跟委員報告,我還是剛剛講的備戰才能避戰啦中共在這個台海地區周圍對我們所進行這樣的演習不斷然後軍事的襲擾不斷"},{"start":9664.004,"end":9689.709,"text":"然後他的軍事的擴張的程度相當驚人那像這樣子的一些種種的一個作為我們沒有辦法鬆懈自己說金融時報這樣的講法等等等等我們也沒辦法去證實但是我們要強調以實力才能有效的嚇阻嘛是實力才是一個有效嚇阻的如果首戰一定是飛彈的齁我們有沒有實力把他打下來"},{"start":9690.669,"end":9716.826,"text":"我...我...就不用具體了這個沒有秘密的問題就是你要讓我們有決心讓我們對你放心說我們部長在這裡他們只要首戰我們絕對要把他打下來首戰他就結束啦誒陳明東就說他不會勝算啦他不會贏啊你敢不敢在這裡講說以我們現在的武力我們的裝備老共即便來翻台不會成功你敢這樣講嗎"},{"start":9718.327,"end":9735.199,"text":"我們有這個自信認為在台海這個天險這種情況之下他要以兩棲登陸攻台他不要兩棲啊他飛彈我先問你飛彈飛彈我們有我們整體防空的能力不斷地正在加強當中"},{"start":9736.399,"end":9762.583,"text":"我們承受第一級之後我們做好戰力的保存我們可以有反制的能力什麼叫戰力保存就是不要打他先躲起來戰力保存我們一方面有整體防空的能量那一方面我們其他的反制的力量要做好整個機動的這個然後就地就做好戰術的位置然後來做好保存這兩個都是不違背的啊我們有整體防空的力量"},{"start":9763.263,"end":9768.045,"text":"聽起來感覺是第一集打的時候快點秘密起來保存實力準備進行巷戰你的講法變這個樣子沒有啦保存實力啥是保存實力跟委員報告第一集呢就請全力把他打過去了什麼叫保存實力聽都沒有"},{"start":9779.828,"end":9802.65,"text":"保存實力是比如說反艦飛彈等等要機動要保存然後包括雷達車包括這些下彎的我們要保存我們的戰力然後在承受第一級之後我們能夠反制回去而這個反制是要能夠有效能夠來摧毀它的有生戰力逐次的消耗現在可以有效把它"},{"start":9805.132,"end":9811.638,"text":"我認為我們逐步的正在人力的建構當中我們有這個自信應該是有做得到我今天要問的問題就是軍備很重要你還有這樣的實力反擊我們看到省紀部111年的決算報告"},{"start":9822.506,"end":9827.347,"text":"已經簽了發價書沒有結案的419案有人講416台幣1.7兆我們已經付了1.1兆美方只交了8500億主席也問你這個問題我們在看結果因為審計部將這樣子糾正提出來國防部去改合約啊改了又改那個什麼交貨期啊改改了又說18項重要的合約只有剩下3項F16、V2"},{"start":9853.038,"end":9853.599,"text":"發言委員：發言委員"},{"start":9878.278,"end":9889.741,"text":"新式的戰機也是如此我們已經就把它放入研究委員你回答主席講說今年交兩架是吧那兩架要測評出廠原型機出廠要做什麼時候開始交旅約什麼時候開始交我們要求他們在2026年底以前66架全數交全部交完囉現在開始都沒看到喔你要知道我們的特別條例2026就結束囉2026你如果沒有交的話"},{"start":9905.764,"end":9906.604,"text":"我們接下來進行詢答的委員是楊瓊英委員"},{"start":9941.173,"end":9942.616,"text":"謝謝主席。本席想邀請部長。來,部長請。市長、委員好。"},{"start":9951.394,"end":9974.653,"text":"部長好根據華虎智庫卡托研究報告美國軍售到今天我們尚未交貨的武器累計到190億美元是不是啊請教部長是他的報告是正確的吼是那麼在這樣的情況之下呢美國對我國的軍售是我們國防非常重要的一環對不對"},{"start":9977.934,"end":9985.66,"text":"當然當然那如果武器研製呢交貨的時間繼續這個情況繼續那請教部長我們要怎麼應對請教部長"},{"start":9989.102,"end":10006.225,"text":"所以我們跟美方一直在持續密切溝通那美方有成立這個Tiger Team來針對台海面臨的顯著威脅希望能夠從舊軍售案從各個面向來協助我們來快速的建立"},{"start":10007.026,"end":10033.04,"text":"就是包括軍售案的行政的審查的程序還有生產我們出來之後我們的優惠的排列到我們是不是提前接裝訓練然後全面性的協助來我們在他們這樣軍工產能不足的情況下仍然能夠快速的建立我們的足夠的自衛能力這樣部長你最後一個答案說仍然能夠提供有這個信心嗎"},{"start":10035.977,"end":10048.224,"text":"剛剛好幾天委員報告我們有這個信心你有這個信心因為在前任部長往前推我們的結果論是研制的所以接下來本席要請教在報告的當中"},{"start":10049.525,"end":10065.987,"text":"他說期程你們都是以展延後的方式計算有沒有這回事沒有剛剛已經該跟委員報告了我們就是以第一版的發價書它所設定的期程來決定來看它是不是有構成延期"},{"start":10067.149,"end":10088.75,"text":"我們要給他理清楚不要以訛傳訛 這個對我們台灣不好的所以在這樣的情況之下您剛才所說的一個重點審查報告、審查過程要怎麼樣去濃縮是不是?行政程序的審查要縮短程序審查要縮短 有改善方式就好第二個也就是他們缺工的情況之下"},{"start":10090.031,"end":10116.146,"text":"那要怎麼樣還是補足我方應會依照時間點來交貨嗎?請教這個缺工的情況之下我們希望我們的生產的優勢能夠排在比如說最前面所以本席要請教你一個答案因為民眾要的是結果是一個安全我們既然有這個買了這些軍售當然希望如期回來一個結論請教會不會如期回來請教部長"},{"start":10119.128,"end":10140.698,"text":"跟委員報告我想明年、後年是一個交貨的一個高峰期也是我們付款的高峰期所以我會跟委員報告2026年年底之前像這樣子的延宕的情形會做很有效的改善會有效改善還不保證會如期回來嗎?是不是如此?我們"},{"start":10142.279,"end":10157.433,"text":"我們現在共同來努力然後美方也承諾所以我們希望2026年的年齡以前這些情況都能夠有效的...美方的承諾是能夠如期回來嗎?按照現在我剛剛個別的項目跟...部長"},{"start":10158.686,"end":10185.984,"text":"新的部長就有新的作為我們希望的是答案那所以本席請教你剛才說得出的方案審查時間、程序、簡化、縮短那請教這個答案會不會如期交回來請教像F16新式戰機2026年年底以前我們希望它能夠全部那仿專甲的那個托式配彈我們希望在你今年年底以前今年年底以前全部能夠交易完畢"},{"start":10187.455,"end":10206.545,"text":"你跳躍式的回答本席跳躍式的回答本席所以我還是希望你繼續努力去盤點既然我們有約定有契約我們要怎麼樣讓它能夠如期回來這是重點這也是今天一開始我們花了四個小時四分鐘"},{"start":10207.886,"end":10227.912,"text":"主席這給我4分鐘跟委員報告我們事實上還有其他的一些手段包括FMF、PDA等等這樣的軍演的一個手段來加強我們的防衛能力的提升這樣子這個因為很多是剩下的細節部長你還是針對本席的回答本席還是希望我們既然"},{"start":10229.872,"end":10254.363,"text":"閱讀這些研製的我們希望也能夠如期鼓勵你們在各個比如說你剛才說的我們的審查它有調整的空間嘛縮短的時間、缺工他們要怎麼處理我們是買方欸我們不是賣方欸對不對我相信美國不會比我們不心急美國比我們也要更心急你這個答案本行沒有辦法接受"},{"start":10255.063,"end":10261.266,"text":"我們一定心急我是買方啊我是買方你怎麼替買方講話你這個邏輯太奇怪你是中華民國的國防部長是保衛我們的我們雙方都有這個急迫感你如果講這樣還勉強可以接受但是你不能說美國比我們心急你這個話中有話他為什麼比我們更心急請教部長"},{"start":10278.601,"end":10279.922,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是邱志偉委員"},{"start":10308.44,"end":10326.272,"text":"謝謝主席,有請顧部長來,部長請邱委員好部長好,上週在總政卿我請教您關於自由自衛權的行使所以行使大概我想台大教授"},{"start":10327.301,"end":10327.621,"text":"先秘密、後公開"},{"start":10345.447,"end":10369.81,"text":"如果我國已經遭受武力攻擊必須按照聯合國憲章習慣法規則訴諸武力保護自己這是智慧權的行使跟第一級概念不一樣第一級概念是說如果那時候邱部長的說法是說無人機艦氣球侵入我國領空無需對我開槍開炮我方就可以加以擊落如果以國際法的實務來看"},{"start":10372.6,"end":10391.852,"text":"國會長時務來看其他國家面對敵對勢力他用這個無人機或者是氣球進行蓄意的闖入或者情報收集或者是這個政治的宣傳種種目的的時候其他國家的實踐會是怎麼樣去處理這是駕馭無力排除"},{"start":10393.038,"end":10417.069,"text":"像美國上次那個氣球不是飛到美國的上空嗎所以美國認為這個是具有間諜衛星的性質那侵犯它的領空那他們就派出他們的飛機去把它擊落那我國的失誤呢如果主要是發生在外島的領空外島的領空如果這種灰色地帶它用無人機進行情報收集或者是這個政治宣傳這個時候我們國際法作為基礎"},{"start":10420.35,"end":10441.639,"text":"我們用武力去排除 這個應當是符合國際法法相關規定吧這個跟委員報告齁 因為現在大部分我想無人機的它那個會越到我們外離島上面都是一些小型的無人機它是零散性的齁 但是你不能判斷它是不是有政治宣傳或者是情報搜集的目的嘛"},{"start":10442.159,"end":10456.414,"text":"他主要的我想都是在從事認知作戰那我想我們是應該要進行這一個反制無人機的一個部署那我想這個最近也積極的在進行當中具體的做法是什麼部署就是你可以驅離嗎"},{"start":10458.504,"end":10483.585,"text":"我們要用那個干擾的方式讓他來進行其他國家像美國就直接擊落了嘛對不對他認為說這個氣球有這個情報收集的這個氣土他就直接加以擊落所以國際掌防是支持我們用比較強力的手段用武力來排除無人機的入侵這個未來實務可能要定得很清楚而且這種現象可能變成一個常態"},{"start":10484.915,"end":10509.255,"text":"那我們前方這個所有的我們的這個國軍弟兄面對這種灰色地帶的這個這個狀況該如何處置對於這種突發狀況我們在突發狀況處置規定裡面有明電啦應該要加以排除排除的方法有很多啊是是有沒有包括武力當然有但是要很明確是什麼樣的情況之下你要使用武力"},{"start":10512.2,"end":10539.295,"text":"我認為江教授的意見國際法上的實證應當是支持用武力去排除無人機入侵做情報收集等等目的所以我覺得應該更高強度否則你如果沒有用高強度來因應來嚇死他們每天都來每天都來怎麼辦我們這個防部勝防所以一定要拿出這個強力的做法"},{"start":10541.134,"end":10555.931,"text":"另外這個問題先到此,高校機會不會延產?高校機會不會延產?延產,就是說66架嘛,會不會再延產?因為高校機這個性能非常好嘛,對不對?你平時是做訓練,暫時可以作為作戰"},{"start":10561.319,"end":10588.888,"text":"我們現在的計畫應該是沒有要再增產的沒有延產計畫那出交機未來是要國機國造還是要外交所以要由空軍來做一個評估有沒有一個方向再來要回答是,包委員因為出交機到122年才接受那這幾年正好是我們各種軍頭現在付款的高峰所以現在暫時還沒有優先決定所以還在評估了還在評估另外10秒鐘軍方的醫院軍事局蔡局長也在"},{"start":10589.688,"end":10598.553,"text":"有沒有因為護理師的運不足發生關床或者是剪刀的狀況?"},{"start":10600.184,"end":10619.835,"text":"有沒有這種狀況?有稍微局部的關闖,不過...這個不要發生這種狀況,你要...我們關闖的量跟民間的醫院比算小的我問過部立醫院啦,部立醫院或者是這個國立教學醫院幾乎都沒有這個關闖問題那到底誰在關闖問題?這個超過很多十秒鐘了"},{"start":10623.397,"end":10623.857,"text":"主席有請部長部長請"},{"start":10655.416,"end":10681.445,"text":"是羅委員好部長首戰即決戰讓美軍衛到戰事已定這句話出自哪裡我這邊的資料就是說首戰即終戰最先開始是在解放軍報的一篇文章裡面好那我想問你我剛剛講那句話出自哪裡首戰即決戰美軍衛到戰事已定讓美軍衛到戰事已定我告訴你好了"},{"start":10682.225,"end":10705.101,"text":"是這個國防院2018年中共政軍發展評估報告不過他是提到中國強調啊對啊中國強調首戰即決戰啊讓美軍未到戰事一定沒錯吧所以他講的是中國的看法當然我後面要告訴你嘛就是中國強調關鍵這件事嘛事實上這句話的語意是說中共解放軍的戰略指導不是預測戰事結果對不對"},{"start":10708.203,"end":10731.816,"text":"他們是希望戰事一開的時候就結合什麼滲透啦這個我講嘛他的這句話我知道你後面很多具體作為你講四個小時也講不完啦是那我要講說這句話整體是講中共解放軍的戰略指導不是預測戰事結果嘛對不對呃不是這是他的應該是他的主觀期待吧是"},{"start":10733.14,"end":10744.344,"text":"你跟我講的一模一樣啊不是嗎我直接跟你講啦這句話也整體意義是說明中共解放軍是戰略指導並非預設戰事結果你知道這句話出自哪裡嗎這句話也出自國防院的新聞稿啊"},{"start":10749.912,"end":10763.807,"text":"所以我要跟部長講一件事情我想請問你國防院把中國強調首戰及決戰讓美軍衛到戰事儀我們先來解釋中共的戰略講定就是希望美軍還沒到就把戰爭結束了對不對"},{"start":10766.761,"end":10788.382,"text":"我還是說對這中國的一個主觀上面的一個記憶對中國主觀嘛國防院也是這麼講嘛還希望速戰速決的這樣的狀態對啊所以我要講一件什麼事那我想請問你齁國防院把中國強調首戰即決戰讓美軍未到戰事已定這句話放進我們的政軍評估報告是不是投降主義呃我想呃"},{"start":10793.297,"end":10803.563,"text":"如果你講的是賴總統的演說的話我只講國防院我還沒講到賴總統演說我講國防院而已國防院強調的就是說我們不能夠讓首戰及決戰就發生嗎"},{"start":10807.103,"end":10829.407,"text":"誰想要它發聲啊?台灣沒有人想要發聲,我只問你嘛,國防院把這句話放進去是不是投降主義嘛?如果說我們讓首戰局決戰變成真的話,那就是一種投降主義。我只問你,他把它放進去,把這個戰略想定,中共戰略想定揭露,讓我們有所防範,是不是投降主義嘛?"},{"start":10830.58,"end":10840.084,"text":"我們就不能接受嗎?我們如果接受就是投降主義啊。部長,我跟你講過我們不能接受,我只問你可不可以放進評估報告嗎?跟委員報告,我們沒有辦法接受首戰局決戰,如果我們接受首戰局決戰就是投降主義。你講的評估報告是誰的評估?國防院的啊。"},{"start":10853.613,"end":10873.758,"text":"國防院評估的報告...而且是蔡英文政府國防院2018年喔但是他不是在講我...他是不是投降主義我們沒有辦法接受首戰局決戰他講的是中國的主要期待嘛我跟你講過你在跟我鬼打架沒有人能接受啊我要跟你講啦光這個問題你迴避這麼久原因很簡單因為你也不認為國防院放進去"},{"start":10874.298,"end":10889.035,"text":"是一個投降主義嘛他是分析戰略假定嘛戰略想定我們要擊破中共的首戰即決戰的這個想法嘛不是嗎你不把中共的首戰即決戰想進去你怎麼去想出方式呢"},{"start":10890.315,"end":10914.583,"text":"我今天這四分鐘馬上就結束了你光第一個問題你就問四分鐘我只想最後一個結論馬總統引述的就是2018的國防院的報告跟投降主義沒有關係我們都要急迫這個戰略想定關鍵是政府要有能力有信心急迫中共首戰即決戰的戰略想定沒錯吧是 這我們努力的目標請您努力"},{"start":10915.563,"end":10932.586,"text":"我很希望有再多幾個幾十秒啦但是真的也沒辦法對,我也希望有四小時因為我第一個問題四分鐘就結束了歡迎再來謝謝下次再跟部長就教謝謝你歡迎歡迎那請回謝謝接下來進行詢答委員是李坤城委員謝謝主席我們請部長來部長請"},{"start":10952.255,"end":10965.412,"text":"部長好,上次我在詢問部長的時候,那部長也有證實這個要成立類似美軍DIU的單位,那是編織在整平室的下面,在強化中科院跟民間研發單位整合嘛,對不對?"},{"start":10967.726,"end":10992.888,"text":"我想主要是在引進成熟的關鍵技術讓我們的這一個達到這一個作戰的實際的需要的這個速度能夠加快那我們是要去尋求這個不管是國內或國外適當的一個成熟的這樣的技術然後來引進然後來快速的加強我們國防的"},{"start":10993.668,"end":11021.401,"text":"包括 自主能力也好或者是參加這個相關的國防產業供應鏈也好那這個單位是由部長親自來督導嘛 對不對我跟陳平師我們希望他能夠親自跟我報告相關的東西那現在大家都知道說無人機很重要那當然這一個無人艇也很重要那這個引述這個媒體這個就是報導就是說部長認為說無人艇的發展會以水面無人艇為主那水面下無人載具因為科技難度高"},{"start":11022.023,"end":11024.96,"text":"還不是目前的工作重點那這個引述有正確嗎?"},{"start":11026.714,"end":11053.593,"text":"這個是我當時在跟記者參敘的時候提到的這個它的水面下無人載確實有難度是高的但是也是仍然是在我們DIU要屬於要訪尋訪的一個重點項目我們不會我們不會放棄這個水面下的無人載去這一部分那現在因為有這個無人機國家隊但是我請問一下部長有這個無人艇的國家隊了嗎"},{"start":11056.332,"end":11083.194,"text":"我們已經有在從事這個部分的專案看起來進度好像稍微慢一點嘛是不是?這個進度就相較於無人機的部分啦那我不知道說是不是因為在水面我比較看不到所以我直覺上認為說他的這個進度比這一個無人機的這一個這個進度要稍微慢一點各位報告因為這個委員表示機敏愛那我只能說現在目前都很順利目前進度都很正常"},{"start":11084.435,"end":11104.3,"text":"因為無人機有分軍用軍規、軍用商規還有各種偵察型、攻擊型、偵察一體的你也不能夠說它一定比它比較慢因為我們無人機的技術我就是問進度啦我們就是關心進度那當然就是這機敏性的資料無人艇的部門可能不太適宜做過多的揭露"},{"start":11105.461,"end":11120.52,"text":"我一直想到一個議題就在6月9號的時候不是有一個具有中國解放軍背景的人長驅直入從福州寧德港衝到淡水來了然後在海軍跟海巡署都沒有辦法及時攔截的情況之下"},{"start":11121.161,"end":11141.983,"text":"那我在想到說那如果有部署無人艇的話效果會比較好一點嗎?因為上次海巡所要就是說那個雷達只有這個光點啊這個一閃一滅的也不知道說到底是敵是友啊那如果有這個無人艇在部署在我們的淡水河口的話那效果會好一點嗎?能夠比較早知道說到底是敵是友嗎?"},{"start":11143.543,"end":11155.254,"text":"您意思是說是我們的無人艇?對對,當然是我們的無人艇啊但我也不知道我們有沒有一個設備啦我只是那個設想就是說如果有這個無人艇在的話因為我知道國外有這個技術啦"},{"start":11157.191,"end":11180.62,"text":"跟國防部報告我只能夠很簡要地回答說應該是有幫助的但事實上要怎麼去做我想我不適合在現在這個階段跟做那我是認為說應該是比如說有這個無人艇的話它可以來分擔一下海軍或是海巡署的部分的這一個偵查的功能"},{"start":11181.981,"end":11196.12,"text":"他不但是有偵察功能甚至可以有攻擊的功能是啊那這部分我也因為這個是你們比較清楚我只是說就當時的情況之下如果我們有這個部署無人艇的話那部署在淡水河口其他的重要的這個據點的話"},{"start":11199.044,"end":11225.859,"text":"這個類似的情況就會減少讓它發生啦因為其實它還是要有一個雷達的一個偵測的系統當然啦然後這個AIS的這種自動辨識的系統等等這些但是我想這個部分我們還是會再來包括人員的訓練跟這個裝備的獲得要來加強是啊是啊我是就這個齁因為淡水這個河口是我們重要的一個"},{"start":11227.239,"end":11228.42,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是陳冠廷委員"},{"start":11266.834,"end":11267.595,"text":"我們請部長來,部長請"},{"start":11280.262,"end":11308.143,"text":"是陳偉部長好部長剛才幾位委員有提到這個DIU的規劃的大方向那我們這次就針對這一個規劃裡面先進國防科技小組的它的任務還有它的定位是什麼那我為什麼會這樣問其實DIU的機制它是除了是一個創新的管道之外它也是一個加速的一個生態圈那我是希望說我們來談論這件事情的時候能夠不是以國防部"},{"start":11314.03,"end":11336.983,"text":"這是我們自己辦公室簡單二要的把從1945年到現在由他們美國國防部投資的R&D跟一般民間投資的R&D做一個簡單的梳理那因為是由三個不同的資料來源基本上我們可以看到這一個由國防部主導的這種創新是逐年在降低那由一般民間的是逐年在增高"},{"start":11337.623,"end":11347.268,"text":"那基本上60年代之後越來越明顯我想這樣子的文獻資料不管是中科院或者是其他國防部整平時真的應該都有過類似這樣子的研究"},{"start":11348.25,"end":11373.445,"text":"特別是在這些重要的科技巨頭從Google或者是一些科技大公司在美國的Meta等等還有現在新興的AI的公司、新能源等等它這個趨勢是非常的明顯所以當我們講國防或者是說國家安全的創新管道的時候我希望是不是以一個部門為主那我們是把自己想像成是一個加速器也好或者是一個催化劑也好應該會更加妥適"},{"start":11376.53,"end":11398.6,"text":"副長你覺得國防創新是一個管道還是一個它是什麼樣的你怎麼看在DIU在台灣的可能性你把它當成是什麼樣的一個組織是一個引進先進成熟的技術跟產品然後結合國內的產業還有包括中科院的科研能量來加速建構不對稱戰力"},{"start":11400.601,"end":11418.508,"text":"謝謝部長講的沒錯那他其實他變成說他不是一個組織然後一個由國防部全力在推動技術發展他就不是中科院他是在每一個不同的領域上面都能夠有重要的表現我為什麼特別這樣子談因為"},{"start":11419.028,"end":11430.937,"text":"在美國的DIU它主要的有六個專門解決國家安全的組合人工智能、自主技術、能源還有太空還有網路安全等等六大產業的這個部分那我們希望來下一頁"},{"start":11432.671,"end":11448.823,"text":"它不僅是一個管道它是一個生態圈從民間來講我們現在剛剛提到的那六大國家安全的範疇其實是需要的這一個部門從科技界、生技業還有網路安全、金融界、法律界"},{"start":11449.683,"end":11470.951,"text":"國防、退伍軍人、中階、高階、創業家、技術人員都是在這個裡面我們是希望說他可以在每一個系統都能夠有我們部會來去參與來去協助來去加速比方說這一些來自科技、衛生、經驗或者是創業家他們想要進入國防產業的話首先他們要知道說我們現在各個"},{"start":11472.051,"end":11499.288,"text":"基地也好或者是各個部門也好他們現在在做什麼?他們面臨的問題是什麼?挑戰是什麼?甚至是預算上面的這個範疇是什麼?所以首先他們必須有一個boot camp就像是在2015年的時候當他們開始DIU是有一個X他也不知道說這個可以走多久他就知道最近應該是從去年開始這一個DIU的這一個主任才正式向國防部部長報告直接報告以前都還會有各個分層科可能的管理"},{"start":11499.71,"end":11515.96,"text":"所以這是經過8年的這個試驗之後有一個更完整的系統出來所以我現在把這個聖誕圈簡單的用圖示的方式講出來就是說我們能夠參與的地方其實從教育開始就能夠參與教育的意思不是叫他們過來來我告訴你們你們該做什麼"},{"start":11517.361,"end":11541.434,"text":"而是把他們叫過來跟大家說這是現在我們的國防現況中科院現在大概在研究哪一個範疇大概是要做完整的背景查核所以跟顧部長之前講的接密的層級過他的國家安全的背景查核就很重要了因為他們可能沒有軍階這些民間人是怎麼會有軍階所以他們的涉密層級跟他們未來的涉密的這種背景查核就很重要所以國家安全是一環接著一環的"},{"start":11542.074,"end":11556.613,"text":"把他們經過12週以上的啟動營經過訓練之後再進入我們的簡單的原型跟初級方案我現在講的是DIU現在已經正在做的事情那裡面當然有美國他們自己軍種各個不同他們提出他們的問題"},{"start":11558.054,"end":11578.485,"text":"提出問題之後讓這一些由科技業、生技業、創業家組成的小組這個小組是可能來自四、五個不同的背景組成了一個小組用真案的方式用最簡單、最小的方案先讓他們去嘗試那經過嘗試之後他們可以把他們的原型跟初期方案提供給相關單位不管是國防部、國安局還是科技部"},{"start":11578.985,"end":11599.694,"text":"當然國防的加速器就是由國防部來去提供相關的設備跟實驗室資源讓他們免去最初的資源投入我們講的不僅僅是已經是我們已經成了上市企業公司什麼經緯等等這些或者是我們過去這個漢翔由國家做的我們講的是中小企業就可以開始進入這個國防的產業在美國DIU從成案到這個招標和契約的週期是90天"},{"start":11608.103,"end":11633.384,"text":"從今天開始三個月後就已經成案就已經招標完成當然我們講的不是說大型的這種軍事的採購不是不是像潛艇不是像這種教練機等等不是像小型的解決方案因為我們未來運動的挑戰不見得是這種大型需要二三十年規劃的而是每一個結構體我們都必須要先做好準備所以從國防的加速到這個金融的加速比方說天使基金的投入A輪B輪之後"},{"start":11634.725,"end":11658.622,"text":"當他們成為國防部的這種合格廠商同時也可以成為我們向國際社會說這已經經過我們國防部或者是我們相關的官方單位印證出來的產業的企業那之後提供給我們在國際的友邦包含烏克蘭我們變成是說是一個由品牌由國家跟民間企業共同它表示說它不是關閉在一個黑盒子裡面"},{"start":11659.443,"end":11683.968,"text":"他是能夠出去跟其他國家挑戰的經過這樣的認證我們還可以進入美國的國防產業鏈所以我們要打造的是一個國家安全創新的生態圈而這個生態圈我是希望是說是能夠依照它的特色比方說是跟生技相關的是跟科技相關的所謂科技方法剛剛我們講到無人機啊或者是水上水下載具等等都算來去偵測部門"},{"start":11685.991,"end":11707.421,"text":"我記得DIAU在美國大概是從波士頓也有在麻州在他們DC都有也就是說他們在因應這一個地理特色比方說在波士頓可能是生技產業為主的cluster在這個生技產業裡面他們辦公室設在那邊就可以與當地的企業甚至是來自這些重大的這些高等教育出來的學生就直接可以合作"},{"start":11707.961,"end":11729.359,"text":"那如果剛剛就不用講說麻省理工學院或者是哈佛大學所在地等等所以我們必須要因應區域還有這個地區的特色設置辦公室並且直接與這些民間企業開始接洽所以它必須是跨部會的那我們今天要講的國防的創新設施從剛剛講到現在從國防部、科技部甚至是跟我們金融都有相關"},{"start":11730.16,"end":11737.832,"text":"所以我是希望說部長過去不管是在金融、在法律現在是國防部的部長如果能的話"},{"start":11743.275,"end":11763.926,"text":"議員們都必須叫過來先來一個完整的會前會他不應該只是一個私或者是一個部門下面的一個部門就是說部門下面的一個組他可能必須他不是一個中央集權式的他必須分散式的在各個的部門接洽他是做一個我再講一次催化劑那最後我"},{"start":11766.066,"end":11794.609,"text":"講完這個是想要請教第二個部分這是再給我10秒鐘謝謝主席主席關於這個低軌衛星因為我們知道上次應該說上週我們針對這個民雄航太園區的規劃那我們提到無人機產業那還有航太的部分我想請問顧部長是不是有可能讓航太像是低軌衛星的這些產業能夠進駐我們民雄航太園區由中科院主導的東部的這個東廠區的部分有沒有可能"},{"start":11795.454,"end":11822.17,"text":"我跟委員報告,我是聯六的次長現在目前我們所引進的低軌衛星是由數位部做整體的規劃有關於國防部的所有的需求都已經納入到整個案子裡面來做整體的規劃預計在今年我們可以獲得我們所有的一些相關的裝備"},{"start":11823.479,"end":11849.086,"text":"你可以獲得地軌道衛星了,今年?我們的裝備。那所以說如果進駐我們的產業園區,如果我們希望航太園區進駐產業園區,西部的部分,就是西半場的那個產業園區是不是由國防部這邊協助,還是由哪一個部門去來做統合?報告委員,現在目標我們送的國防會去審查的,目前規劃的還是以無人機跟航太產業為主。"},{"start":11850.239,"end":11876.779,"text":"低軌道衛星是韓太產業嘛對不對後來若委員您建議的我可以跟嘉義縣政府再做個溝通協調好因為未來發展好謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員這個我詢問一下你剛才講我們低軌道衛星我們軍方需要的部分是由速發部主導嘛我把我們的需求丟給他們嘛那你說你們今年可以取得裝備OK驗證你要加驗證兩個字我說你怎麼拿得到裝備好謝謝"},{"start":11880.726,"end":11907.746,"text":"來接下來進行詢答委員鄭天才委員來主席各位委員有請部長來部長請是政委部長好"},{"start":11909.216,"end":11937.769,"text":"過去在你當立委的時候我們常見面我離開之後我們大概第一次見到你是很高興見到委員今天特別談這個精良的軍備這個是我們不斷的要這個去採購或是去製造都應該的但是也要有更要有精良的軍人"},{"start":11940.688,"end":11966.717,"text":"我們看這個是2023年10月16號的一個報導志願役不是服然後兩年超過7000人離開我們的志願役這樣的一個數字是相當高我們看這個是112年度的國防部的預算書"},{"start":11969.194,"end":11984.009,"text":"一一三年度沒有呈現沒有呈現那希望這個一一三年度的部分也請國防部再補充可以嗎提書面資料給我好我們看這個軍官"},{"start":11986.159,"end":12005.567,"text":"軍官的人數上望6710人這是一百一十二年度的預算數士官八望九千八百零一人士兵這個士兵是指志願役部長這是志願役的士兵四望四千九百一十一人這樣的數字"},{"start":12007.472,"end":12027.068,"text":"志願役：士兵：士兵更重要當然士官要有軍官也要有第一線的還是要有但是這個人數真的是很少所以剛才講的這個市府兩年就離開這麼多就是指士兵了志願役的士兵"},{"start":12028.496,"end":12056.294,"text":"我們看這是112年志願役士兵的實領的薪資當然這個今年有調薪有增加了那我們就以這個數字來做比較二等兵35320元一等兵37000多上等兵38000多這樣的一個數真的是很低"},{"start":12057.25,"end":12085.233,"text":"好,我們看這個勞工基本勞工的薪資的一個現況基本工資2021年開始不斷的提升都應該的當時月薪台幣兩萬四千2021年每月經常的勞工的平均薪資四萬三千多部長2021年就比我們志願役士兵高很多"},{"start":12086.474,"end":12099.4,"text":"四萬三千多二零二二年基本工資又調高了哈兩萬五千兩百五十然後勞工的平均薪資四萬四千多四萬四千四百一十七"},{"start":12101.358,"end":12128.792,"text":"然後2023年基本工資又調高兩萬六千四百勞工的平均薪資也調高了四萬五千四百九十六元2024年今年基本工資也調高了兩萬七千四百七十這個平均勞工的平均薪資四萬六千一百零五所以我們如果看我們的"},{"start":12131.95,"end":12145.209,"text":"這個志願役的士兵執領的薪資當然這是1、1、2年了1、1、3有在調高了所以這個數字可以後續提供嗎部長1、1、3的可以素面資料提供給我嗎可以"},{"start":12147.591,"end":12169.943,"text":"講這個就是要讓部長要去跟相關的部會組織總署要提升自願役的相關的席次當然包括事官、軍官尤其是士兵啊剛才前面委員有提到平均幾歲就要離開了"},{"start":12171.411,"end":12191.227,"text":"他沒有再升的時候,士兵啊,志願役的士兵沒有升士官,士官沒有升軍官,少尉沒有升中尉,中尉沒有升上尉,沒有升少校,沒有升中校,他就要退了,所以年齡都很低。"},{"start":12192.25,"end":12213.135,"text":"就會涉及到後面的下次再跟你討論這個有關後面的這個相關的這些就業的部分所以就基本上這個精良的軍備也要有精良的軍人職業軍人來去才能夠真正能夠那個才是真正能夠備戰啊"},{"start":12214.926,"end":12240.737,"text":"對不對,不然的話如何備戰部長這個是新這個因為你剛上任啊就是回去讓你去提高流言率還有這個看看哪些部隊的這一個邊線比過低我們要對症下藥這個部門正在積極的研議這樣子謝謝政經財委員部長請回這個是沒有含加級的我知道這個沒有含加級的那個總統公正也應該"},{"start":12244.752,"end":12246.694,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是翁曉琳委員部長請"},{"start":12273.126,"end":12287.922,"text":"昨天您有陪同賴總統一起去參加入關的百年校慶。您看到這個精神抖擻畫著步伐整齊畫一的三軍官校學生踢正步,您有受到感動嗎?"},{"start":12289.113,"end":12318.013,"text":"所以我想他們的士氣都相當的高啊是是是,OK我也很深受感動那賴金德總統昨天有說了一句話那我覺得這個部分可能需要再請部長再來回應一下賴總統說中華民國在哪裡黃埔精神就在哪裡我想請問部長我們中華民國在哪裡我想中華民國現在在台澎金馬已經落地生根"},{"start":12319.241,"end":12325.576,"text":"這是什麼意思我們的意思就是說黃埔在創建的時候並沒有中華人民共和國"},{"start":12326.69,"end":12351.821,"text":"那黃埔創建的時候是中華民國那後來隨著不斷的時期南京、成都然後一直到鳳山都是隨著中華民國那所以中華民國在哪裡黃埔精神就在哪裡因為部長您是法律人所以我不想我們就直接切到法律的角度裡面來談中華民國在哪裡的這個問題我想請問部長從憲法跟法律上的角度來看您認為中華民國在哪裡"},{"start":12353.905,"end":12364.436,"text":"中華民國現在有效的這個治權、統治的這個範圍,就是我剛剛講的,就在臺灣監獄。好,是有效的治權範圍,對不對?好,那我們來看一下下張地圖。來,請部長,請問您承認這張地圖嗎?您認為這是中華民國的地圖嗎?"},{"start":12371.693,"end":12386.114,"text":"我認為我們中華民國現在有效的統治範圍就是颱風金嘛是,我現在想的是領土領土的範圍,對不對?主權包含政府、領土、人民我們的領土,您承不承認這是我們中華民國的領土?"},{"start":12388.537,"end":12404.595,"text":"我只能夠跟委員說如果要照您這樣講的話那外蒙古現在這個地方所畫的外蒙古我現在是從中華民國的角度從歷史政治上的角度來看這張地圖您承不承認您作為中華民國的國防部長您認為這是我們中華民國地圖嗎"},{"start":12405.856,"end":12427.47,"text":"我只能夠回答說我們現在中華民國有效統治的地方所以您還談的是治權嘛所以主權的部分您要迴避接下來我們來談一下下一頁我們就從憲法上面來談談吧什麼叫做我們憲法前面裡面有講為因應國家統一前的需要然後做了這個憲法的修正什麼叫做國家統一我想這一個我們要跟誰統一"},{"start":12435.185,"end":12443.843,"text":"國家統一的這個部分在我們現在至少就我的理解我們現在並沒有再採取反攻大陸的政策"},{"start":12444.592,"end":12464.729,"text":"是您不採取反共大陸的政策還是我們全中華民國的國民不採取反共大陸的政策至少就我的理解所以是您部長個人自己的意見在我們的憲法第11條裡面非常清楚中華民國現在涵蓋自由地區與大陸地區接下來下一頁在兩岸人民關係條例裡面也講得很清楚"},{"start":12465.79,"end":12486.997,"text":"我們的兩岸地區是指的兩岸地區與大陸地區請注意大陸地區的規定指台灣地區以外的中華民國領土從憲法跟法律的角度裡面非常清楚大陸地區就是中華民國的領土請您作為國防部部長不要忘記這麼重要的法律的意涵"},{"start":12489.732,"end":12499.844,"text":"接下來我想請問一下我們現在就是台灣澎湖金門馬祖基政府統治權所在之其他地區是所以這是治權我現在跟你講的是主權跟領土的部分來接下來請下一頁"},{"start":12506.697,"end":12534.225,"text":"這是我們中華民國的領土的規定在我們的憲法憲法徵修條文裡面都講得非常清楚領土就是依照我們的固有疆域非經國民大會的決議是不可以變更在後來這憲法徵修條文裡面有講如果我們要變更領土必須要由立法院提起領土變更案那麼並且要進行全國人民的在台灣地區自由地區全國人民的這個公投賦決"},{"start":12535.665,"end":12562.836,"text":"我希望部長不要忘記這件事情在我們沒有進行憲法公投覆決之前中華民國的領土範圍就是我們剛剛所講的在憲法還有兩岸人民政修條例裡面所指的領土範圍接下來下一頁賴總統說中華人民共和國跟中華民國互不相隸屬代表是說賴清德總統是承認中華人民共和國是嗎?"},{"start":12564.416,"end":12582.294,"text":"跟委員報告中華人民共和國現在事實的存在這個是毋庸置疑的事實我們不管其他國家怎麼承認怎麼去看中華人民共和國從中華民國的角度裡面賴總統是不是說中華人民共和是不是承認中華人民共和國"},{"start":12583.554,"end":12598.954,"text":"委員報告您看您這張圖那個蒙古的地區又把它畫出去了我重點在於台灣中華人民共和國的領土有沒有包含台灣如果你們承認中華人民共和國的話中華人民共和國的領土範圍包含台灣"},{"start":12599.855,"end":12616.522,"text":"我必須說賴清德總統的這樣的發言他作為中華民國總統他矮化台灣拋棄中華民國的領土然後而且給中華人民共和國有個合理化收復台灣的這樣的一個說法"},{"start":12618.055,"end":12643.353,"text":"本席以為賴清德總統他才是中華民國的賣國賊賴清德總統說中華民國的這個前途是由2300萬人民共同決定不要忘記我們現在2300萬人共同決定中華民國領土是在哪裡我們有經過憲法公投嗎在沒有經過任何憲法公投之前請不要說這個"},{"start":12647.327,"end":12672.521,"text":"這個中華人民共和國這個承認中華人民共和國基本上對中華人民共和國就是一個很大的傷害以上國防部的立場就是首途有責我們捍衛的就是中華人民共和國所統治權所及的地區我們寸土不浪謝謝部長我們今天這相關事情都處理完了不過這個不承認去中華人民共和國好像還是要過他們海關好接下來"},{"start":12674.562,"end":12697.715,"text":"正正前委員、正正前委員、正正前委員不在以登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束那機密報告部分報告已完成委員並沒有秘密詢答那我們就這個報告就已經都報委員會了"},{"start":12700.182,"end":12717.59,"text":"另外今天會議有林益君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者"},{"start":12718.53,"end":12731.94,"text":"議請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員令約定期限從其所定那如以上有涉及機密部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理本日會議到此結束散會"}]}},{"id":"16017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16017","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db4704513b222bf9e49e564336fc7700a119186e52af12443248b898c22f1507365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟、社會福利及衛生環境、教育及文化三委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查本院委員王定宇等16人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案」案。\n三、繼續審查本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查本院委員邱議瑩等19人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查本院委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條及第十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(第五案如經復議，則不予審查。））","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-17T08:30:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T10:23:00+08:00","duration":6746,"影片長度":"01:52:26","委員發言時間":"08:30:34 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1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第2次聯席會議"},{"start":1866.488,"end":1895.151,"text":"法務部、勞動部、勞動署等單位代表及相關人員、主席、邱昭及委員議員、討論事項、審查一本院委員羅美玲等人擬具:「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案案。」討論事項和並詢答委員王定宇及羅美玲說明提案要旨。國發會副主委高仙貴、報告號委員陳天飛等28人提出質詢。均由國發會副主委高仙貴、勞動部勞發署主秘程施昌為服務長照司副司長"},{"start":1895.831,"end":1901.944,"text":"五夕委員及教育部國教司代理司長廖高賢暨相關人員及其答覆後登記發言"},{"start":1904.281,"end":1928.226,"text":"委員處不在場者外區域均已發言完畢,詢答結束委員陳昭芝、張家俊、莊瑞雄、盧仙怡、邱振鈞、蘇清泉、雷淑芬、陳昭明、廖偉祥及羅廷偉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢項會局答覆部分請相關單位一週內以書面答覆並複製本會二委員王定宇等人擬具:「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案案。」"},{"start":1928.886,"end":1938.134,"text":"三委員邱志偉等人擬具《外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案》案。決議尋答結束令定期繼續審查。散會宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1949.061,"end":1973.127,"text":"本院委員羅美玲等人擬具:「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案案。」二、繼續審查本院委員王定宇等人擬具:「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法增訂第二十一條之一條文草案 案。」三、繼續審查本院委員邱志維等人擬具:「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條條文修正草案 案。」四、審查本院委員邱奕寅等人擬具:「外國專業人才"},{"start":1974.102,"end":1989.94,"text":"引覽及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案案。五、審查本院委員賴瑞榮等人擬具:「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條及第十四條條文修正草案案。」宣讀而閉。好,那我們現在開始這個"},{"start":1993.21,"end":2020.621,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項已經在5月22日巡達完畢而後院會交付聯席會審查提案有本席等19人以及委員賴瑞榮等17人分別擬具外國專業人才延攬及僱用法部分條文修正草案案等二案現在共有五個版本然後我們今天就一併進行協商那我們現在先進行廣泛討論"},{"start":2022.502,"end":2031.314,"text":"廣泛討論無人登記發言我們請議事人員宣讀所有條文如果有修正登議或附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢以後我們再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":2034.824,"end":2060.145,"text":"外國專業人才延攬及僱用法委員邱志偉等提案第十二條刪除現行法第三項至第五項規定其餘同現行法條文委員賴瑞榮等提案第十二條同委員邱志偉等提案委員羅美玲等提案第十四條修正現行法條文第四項外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才在我國就學取得大學、校院、學士以上學位者"},{"start":2060.825,"end":2073.631,"text":"得折抵第一項及前項之在我國連續拘留期間取得博士學位者折抵二年、碩士學位者折抵一年、學士學位且就讀四年以上者折抵二年。"},{"start":2074.884,"end":2101.742,"text":"復學士學位且就讀二年以上者折抵一年以上各學位不得合併折抵其餘同現行法條文委員邱瑩等提案第十四條修正現行法條文第四項外國專業人才及外國特定專業人才在我國就學取得大學、校院、學士以上學位者得依下列規定折抵第一項及前項之在我國連續拘留期間依外國專業人才"},{"start":2102.262,"end":2122.278,"text":"取得博士學位者折抵二年、碩士學位或學士學位者折抵一年三者不得合併折抵二、外國特定專業人才取得博士學位者折抵二年、碩士學位者折抵一年二者不得合併折抵其餘同現行法條文委員賴樂榮等提案"},{"start":2123.342,"end":2139.473,"text":"第十四條除第四項第一款修正為外國專業人才取得博士學位者折抵二年、碩士學位頓點、學士學位者折抵一年以上各學位不得合併折抵其餘同委員邱毅英等提案。"},{"start":2140.287,"end":2166.024,"text":"委員王定宇等人提案新增第21條之一外國專業人才外國特定專業人才及外國高級專業人才其本人配偶未成年子女及因身心障礙無法自理生活之成年子女經內政部移民署許可永久居留並合法累計居留10年,每年居住超過183日者,得適用身心障礙者權益保障法。"},{"start":2167.165,"end":2187.462,"text":"第五十條及第五十一條及長期照顧服務申請及給付辦法之規定以下列各款情形之一為居留原因而經許可在我國居留之期間不記錄前項在我國累計居留期間一、在我國就學二、以前款人員為依親對象經許可居留"},{"start":2188.243,"end":2202.397,"text":"以取得第一項資格而經內政部移民署撤銷或廢止其永久居留許可者、終止適用身心障礙者權益保障法第五十條及第五十一條及長期照顧服務申請及不辦法之權利"},{"start":2203.973,"end":2220.101,"text":"但因回復我國國籍、取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍經撤銷或廢止永久居留許可者不在此限。第一項之服務內容申請程序應檢附文件及其他相關事項之辦法由衛生福利部定之。"},{"start":2221.401,"end":2247.998,"text":"委員邱瑩等人所提修正動議第21條之一對照委員王定宇等提案第一項倒數第二具起修正為得因下列規定使用相關服務依經身心障礙權益保障法第五條所定之專業團隊鑑定及評估符合該法相關規定者得適用身心障礙者權益保障法第五十條及第五十一條之規定"},{"start":2248.979,"end":2257.138,"text":"二、依身心失能且符合下列資格之一者,得適用長期照顧法第八條之一第四項規定所提供之服務。"},{"start":2260.697,"end":2287.782,"text":"65歲以上二、經身心障礙者權益保障法第五條所定之專業團隊鑑定及評估符合該法相關規定者其餘同委員王定宇等提案第一項第二項同委員王定宇等提案第三項第三具修正為及長期照顧服務法第八條之一第四項規定所提供服務之權利其餘同委員王定宇等提案第四項同委員王定宇等提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2290.472,"end":2310.04,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在就開始進行協商首先我們先進行第十二條條文的協商那第十二條條文有賴瑞榮委員的版本跟邱志偉委員的版本我是不是請國發會表示一下意見好嗎那委員如果有要發言的我們就呃邱志偉"},{"start":2318.858,"end":2343.886,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好關於外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十二條考量到入出國籍移民法已經於112年6月18號修正過以後我們部分條文沒有重複擺放的必要所以我們也建議回歸到入出國籍移民法辦理所以本會支持委員提案內容"},{"start":2347.732,"end":2348.835,"text":"邱志偉委員之後是賴瑞榮"},{"start":2356.972,"end":2383.812,"text":"來,邱志偉這個十二條的部分大概我跟賴瑞榮提案是一樣的那建議修正條文也是跟我們兩人所提的版本是一樣的這主要是陸續國移民法已經通過了所以你第三項到第五項的規定是重複的我們就回歸到這個陸續國移民法這樣子適用法則才會一致化另外我之前請教那個主委整體的這個外國專業人才攬裁跟僱用"},{"start":2385.253,"end":2413.302,"text":"對於這個我們需要產業的人才是不是可以銜接得上或是補充足夠這個法律是不是它的誘因這個強度夠不夠吸引人才能夠提供給我們這個產業所需所以我本席一直強調說這個新經濟移民法是不是有這個必要性新經濟移民法你也了解是這個賴總統在當行政院長的時候提出的這個版本他有更全面化"},{"start":2413.962,"end":2427.718,"text":"那你那個那時候是涵蓋所有包括這個中間藍領包括白領所有的專業人才那我認為那是一個好的版本那有沒有必要把這個現行所有版本再做一個整合"},{"start":2429.54,"end":2448.95,"text":"另訂一個新經濟移民法。部裡面有沒有這個想法要提部的版本,那我已經是提案了,我要提新經濟移民法,來補充現有這個外國專業人才攬裁跟僱用,這些這個目前現行法律規定不足的地方。我想請教一下主委的意見。"},{"start":2451.108,"end":2472.697,"text":"來 瑞榮等一下好了 那個瑞榮問完再好 謝謝我想這個部分的話如果已經有達成公示我建議就照邱志偉委員跟我們的委員的版本通過了那另外我也同時我也呼應邱志偉委員因為事實上我也有提了新經濟移民法我也認為其實重要的人力的補充很重要所以說我們現在少子化所以說我們的專業人才持續不足"},{"start":2473.217,"end":2491.732,"text":"那對於中階的藍領或高階的白領這一塊用更有策略性的一個整個法來也讓國際感受到台灣對人才的重視跟整個支持啦那這個確實也是在當時賴清德總統還要擔任行政院長的時候他很重視的一個法案那我建議國發會回去要再盤點一下啦"},{"start":2492.492,"end":2520.761,"text":"放到這個外國專業人才延攬及僱用法當然也可以但是如果再單獨用新疾民法來立的話其實可以跟台灣的社會跟全世界宣示我們對這些中階跟高階的人才的重視同時也讓他們知道說你來到台灣為台灣長期付出了之後其實是有機會跟台灣成為一家人而長期在這邊發展的那我認為對於我們人力的補充對於特別面對少子化的壓力的時候其實會給台灣長遠的經濟有更大的幫助啦這也請主委整體思考一下"},{"start":2521.696,"end":2522.799,"text":"謝依鳳委員陳婷暉委員陳婷暉委員主委"},{"start":2535.229,"end":2559.375,"text":"謝謝主席,其實我是非常支持這個外國專業人才延攬及僱用法的因為未來可能就是在AI的運用上面或者是在我們就是留學生就是跟這些東西南向國家的合作上面我們的確需要就是說更多的攬才的工具"},{"start":2559.835,"end":2582.182,"text":"但是剛才邱委員跟賴委員所提到的新基金移民法我覺得我們必須要考量到到底會不會影響到我們本國的勞工以及影響到就是到底跟我們現在現行的就是新住民的法案等等有沒有什麼相衝突的地方"},{"start":2582.682,"end":2603.202,"text":"我認為這是必須要就是說綜合去考量的那這個部分我持保留的意見但是我支持我們外國專業人才延攬及僱用法的修正 謝謝好 謝謝 來陳婷菲委員我想新經濟移民法絕對不會是影響到這個就業的問題 國內就業問題因為我們現在最主要是人才"},{"start":2607.626,"end":2627.881,"text":"因為在這個上一次我們跟經濟部長在做諮詢的時候其實我們很清楚我們現在面對整個國際局勢的一個競爭我們必須很清楚說人才大家都在搶我們每一次修了法之後基本上人家又跑到另外一屆了"},{"start":2628.871,"end":2629.792,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員"},{"start":2643.891,"end":2673.106,"text":"而不是影響到我們本勞的問題我覺得這必須要把它分得很清楚否則今天出去可能大家都會誤解我覺得這個分也要分得很清楚所以我們所講的新經濟移民法是說我們不要再一次每一次我們當然提人才的部分要去延攬人才然後修這個法修那個法而是一次性我們討論好現在國際局勢需要什麼樣的一個人才然後需要什麼樣的一個方向"},{"start":2673.806,"end":2699.983,"text":"我們一次然後希望透過我們國發會我們是know-how我們很重要都是一個平台但我們這個平台不是一個經濟部可以去談我們其實把經濟部要求你趕快去處理他也處理不了因為這是跨部會的所以我們希望說今天已經到了這個時間點從之前賴清德院長那個時候到現在已經又經過了好幾年了"},{"start":2700.803,"end":2725.752,"text":"事實上在整個這個國際局勢的一個潮流已經又變了好幾遍了所以我認為我們士兵應該趕快一次討論好一次處理好把所有各部位找來現在大家所需要的是什麼人才是什麼樣的一個競爭力在我們這個新經濟移民法法討論清楚我覺得這是比較重要的"},{"start":2727.199,"end":2732.979,"text":"好來那我是不是讓陳金輝委員發言完就請那個國發會主委回答好謝謝"},{"start":2734.195,"end":2759.257,"text":"今天在這個外國專業人才延攬跟僱用法審查雖然我不是主題案人但是也很想詢問主管機關就是國發會的主委一些相關於這個法案的意見那當然剛有聽到說陳庭樂有提到的很多是我也認同的比如說我們目前折抵申請永久居留的續留期間條件上是不是已經不足"},{"start":2759.998,"end":2783.552,"text":"所以導致我們已經無法透過高教的招生來搶國際的人才因此需要做這樣子的放寬具體的情況是什麼另外我也很想知道說跟我們比如說臨近的日韓等國的比較各自的條件啊施政措施是什麼我們是不是有比人家差是不是有一些國際上的案例可以來參考"},{"start":2785.614,"end":2799.163,"text":"第三、當然陳琦菲委員覺得可能不會影響到本土的就業人才不過因為現在是各級學校的畢業季所以同學們也會關心到說未來是不是會面臨到這方面就業的衝擊還有壓力謝謝好來請國發會"},{"start":2805.001,"end":2830.903,"text":"一併回答好謝謝各位委員的建議跟看法這些都是值得我們去思考跟了解的部分那其實政府在施政上面一定會照顧本國人民為優先這個是絕對是不容置疑的包括我們的就業率、就業狀況那我們本國勞工或者是白領階級我們都會充分的照顧這是一定的"},{"start":2831.944,"end":2856.683,"text":"只是我們現在面臨兩個問題第一個國際上快速的人才的需求跟競爭是非常非常激烈的加上我們的少子化大概我們現在新生兒也剩下12萬我們必須去填補它這個是整個全球的趨勢在亞洲部分我們其實在比較日本來講日本的JSKIP他現在最快速的不到一年可以取得永居就是高端專業人才"},{"start":2857.944,"end":2883.216,"text":"到一年就可以取得了。我們目前來講,如果我們這次不修正的話,我們大概要到兩年到三年才能取得。相較的話,我們跟日本的人才吸引比較就會比較落後。最近韓國也在調整,泰國也在調整,新加坡也在調整。所以我們必須跟上去做一個競爭。我們現在的目的是絕對不能以不輸為原則,一定要做到"},{"start":2883.876,"end":2884.097,"text":"議員王定宇等二、繼續審查"},{"start":2905.498,"end":2933.657,"text":"那我想這個一個整合性的規劃是一個可以可以被考慮的事情我們也會去請各部相關部會也會跟跟院報告來看看是不是我們來做一個比較整合性的探討讓我們未來的國家人才競爭力會做得更好對主委你的答覆我覺得還沒有回到重點新經營運法是經過行政院院會通過那時候"},{"start":2936.439,"end":2946.413,"text":"你要行政院通過市中委嚴謹程序,州委員要審核,然後各部會要提供意見,然後送來立法院,按當會前列為優先法案。"},{"start":2947.938,"end":2970.426,"text":"現在新經濟的形態日新月異一直不斷地演變所需要的人才的樣態也一直不斷地改變當然需要一部專法你現在把白領用國發會的外國人才的僱用方法來弄然後藍領的部位又從勞動部去"},{"start":2972.048,"end":2985.905,"text":"我覺得這個整體需要一個專法來整合那個邱志偉委員因為我們今天審查的是外國專業人才的攬財條例我們到時候再討論新經濟移民法的部分您再提我們再來就這個部分來研討好不好好"},{"start":2987.987,"end":2989.728,"text":"接下來我們請看第十四條條文"},{"start":3013.021,"end":3024.286,"text":"對,第十四條的條文有羅美玲委員還有邱益穎委員賴瑞榮委員的提案那請國發會表示一下意見"},{"start":3031.605,"end":3049.275,"text":"關於這個條文因為我們比較過跟目前臨近的國家的比較的確我們原來的法條是比較稍微有點沒辦法跟上整個亞洲的一個競爭狀態所以尤其是跟日本的比較我們差的"},{"start":3050.335,"end":3068.185,"text":"稍微遠了一點所以我們本會目前是贊同委員的提案就是說在博士可以折抵兩年、碩士、學士或者副學士可以折抵一年所以我目前支持委員的提案接下來羅美玲委員我有看了國發會"},{"start":3078.596,"end":3103.254,"text":"還有各部會的針對上一次的書面報告那國會針對有一部分的意見認為要這個要由衛生福利部來表示意見那有的是會寫說要尊重這個勞動部的意見然後勞動部的報告裡面又提到尊重"},{"start":3104.474,"end":3131.866,"text":"本院委員羅美玲等16人擬具 «外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條條文修正草案》案。 bicy,你現在講的這個是下一條?就是王定宇的那個案?我還沒有講這條。我還沒講完嘛。因為我想說你講到那個勞動部跟衛福部那個是下一條的條文。教育部,今天設立到教育部嘛。我馬上就講到教育部。那教育部這裡面也提到尊重國發會的意見。那教育部"},{"start":3133.105,"end":3156.697,"text":"這個當然他就教育部來講他考量的我不知道是不是應該是沒有考慮到原住民的這個救血我們原住民救血大專校院從107年到現在沿漢的初債協力沿漢的大專校院的初債協力"},{"start":3158.922,"end":3159.722,"text":"本院委員王定宇等16人擬具"},{"start":3182.486,"end":3197.359,"text":"我在教育部質詢或甚至跟行政院院長質詢,怎麼樣去提升原住民的就讀大專校院,百分之三十幾是很大吧?"},{"start":3202.868,"end":3229.082,"text":"所以這個部分這個也會影響到這條條文收短後來本來沒有那個協事什麼還附協事都會影響所以這個部分在沒有去考量到這個在地的就業或是就學都會受到影響所以包括前面後面的條文也都會有這樣的一個"},{"start":3230.718,"end":3249.667,"text":"問題因為專業人才很廣的專業人才很廣難道我們台灣的各大學都沒有培養這些專業人才嗎所以這個部分我們也必須考慮到尤其是勞動部也必須考慮到我們的就業"},{"start":3251.189,"end":3252.73,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員王定宇等16人擬具"},{"start":3281.317,"end":3305.569,"text":"在地的就業主委因為你剛上任不是很清楚我們的就業率有比較好沒錯但是員工的薪資有沒有比較好有沒有提升沒有我最近跑行程我們的鄉親就告訴我為什麼我們跟外籍勞工的薪水一模一樣"},{"start":3308.022,"end":3329.547,"text":"所以很多的這些廠商啊就禁用外籍勞工嘛那我們的在地的那個我們各級我們不管是原住民還是不是原住民都一樣如果整體你國發會就現在整體去看整體去看各種狀況為什麼我們的"},{"start":3333.666,"end":3359.261,"text":"很清楚啊 主席總署的那個報告都很清楚啊為什麼我們的薪資的提升有限呢甚至倒退都有啊基本工資一直提升沒錯基本工資提升是對這個外籍勞工有利啦我們都歡迎但是對本勞的本勞的就業或者是他的薪資是不是受到影響"},{"start":3360.336,"end":3373.971,"text":"多有,所以國安會要衡量的是全部,要整合各部會,然後尤其是相關的這些統計數字,以上。好,謝謝鄭天才委員。接下來請羅美玲委員,羅美玲委員之後是范雲委員。"},{"start":3376.233,"end":3391.17,"text":"謝謝主席不管是外國專業人才或是外國特定專業人才其實他來到台灣其實還是有一定的這個條件而且我們也希望就是說這些優質的人才都能夠留在台灣當然我們要有一些誘因"},{"start":3391.51,"end":3410.691,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3411.292,"end":3424.009,"text":"只是支持這兩位委員的版本可是因為現在副學士已經納入了評點制所以我就期待就是說能把副學士納入可以折抵一年以上謝謝"},{"start":3426.839,"end":3444.439,"text":"謝謝羅美玲委員接下來請范雲委員范雲委員之後是陳婷菲委員其實我就是想問這個羅美玲委員的版本因為副學士他取得的時候是不是同時要有一個學士學位才會有副學士那又不能合併計算我有點不了解想要問這個問題不是像副學士他像是二專"},{"start":3446.681,"end":3447.462,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":3467.118,"end":3471.839,"text":"陳婷菲議員賴瑞榮、謝伊鳳議員我們在質詢的時候其實已經有跟我們國發會都有就教過了就是說還有經濟部這相關單位就是說我們確實現在是需要有這樣的一個所謂的他的一個學士則底或是碩士則底的部分"},{"start":3494.145,"end":3494.666,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":3511.989,"end":3512.469,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":3531.839,"end":3532.2,"text":"賴瑞隆委員"},{"start":3551.689,"end":3574.876,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想現在全世界大家都在搶人才了那怎麼樣把一些人才能夠留在台灣那至於大家擔憂的一些有些的這些是不是影響到我們的一些人力的部分這個其實是有特定的包括外國專業人才或者外國特定的專業人才他都有一些限定的其實是國家所需要的一些特定產業我們確實找不到"},{"start":3575.416,"end":3576.097,"text":"本院委員王定宇等16人擬具"},{"start":3592.509,"end":3620.509,"text":"大家整合過各委員的意見那國發會同意以後其實我們是把這個包括博士則兩年、碩士、學士、副學士則一年那如果外國的部分的話是只有碩士則一年我認為這個已經形成大家有一個共識了我建議就照這樣的版本來通過那我希望說這個未來對於這些居留時間的扣底能夠讓這些優秀人才未來優先選擇來到台灣來居留感受到台灣在競爭人才這個尋求人才上的積極度"},{"start":3621.67,"end":3647.631,"text":"另外我再補充一下,因為《新經濟民法》其實版本其實我們委員的版本已經有進到委員會來討論我也希望國發會盡快把你們版本今年度能夠趕快送進來那也希望再有機會我們大家來加快來討論希望能夠更全面的來就競爭人才的部分能夠來用一個專法來做處理好以上好謝謝賴瑞龍委員那我最後一個請謝一芬委員謝一芬委員詢問完之後我們就請國發會一併回答好謝謝"},{"start":3649.489,"end":3671.699,"text":"主委,我們必須要說其實上一次在詢答的時候葛如君委員他是在AI部分就是非常專業的委員他也提到應該要放寬甚至連就是在學時候的這個公讀的部分是不是應該要放寬納入那當然我們考量到會有"},{"start":3672.439,"end":3672.639,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":3697.042,"end":3697.483,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":3712.586,"end":3713.046,"text":"邱志偉委員"},{"start":3741.02,"end":3758.721,"text":"秋雲委員跟賴榮文委員版本加上羅美玲版本大致上是羅美玲委員加一個副學士最主要的跟現行法律不一樣就是我們甄列的學士、碩士的部分還有外國特定專業人士的部分加一個博士"},{"start":3759.773,"end":3787.578,"text":"那個﹐如果剛剛的現行法﹐如果暫照這個賴瑞榮跟邱若驹的版本通過之後﹐大概我們目標可以募集多少﹐這個﹐更多的專業人才﹐有沒有順序算過這個﹐這個可能請諸位再去﹐去評估一下﹐如果曾﹐曾烈的博士﹐外國特定專業人士曾烈博士﹐的兩年﹐收視增加一年﹐然後﹐外國專業人才增加了學士﹐"},{"start":3788.786,"end":3789.587,"text":"來請國發會主委回答一下"},{"start":3794.998,"end":3817.531,"text":"關於人才的部分目前會留下來的大概在48.1%那我們希望透過這樣的方式能夠增加到七成留下來至於畢業生數我們從2021年訂這個法規範之後我們現在的每一年招生數是逐年在增加所以確實的數據應該是有機會填補我們未來的缺口"},{"start":3822.654,"end":3846.674,"text":"但是呢的確像委員講的因為這個競爭很激烈有些人他不見得會留下來甚至我們在臺灣的人也不見得會留在這裡因為各國都在搶人才所以我們一定要想辦法讓這些比較有競爭力的法案能夠盡量的過關然後讓我們可以吸引到專業人才因為這是針對專業人才那也包括AI人才、資安人才都需要所以我們需要把這個專業人才拉進來"},{"start":3847.735,"end":3869.921,"text":"目前來講,以目前缺人才的狀況來看,從企業的反應來看,目前我們人才還處於不夠的階段,還沒有到會跟本國勞工去搶的程度。目前統計數字來看,大概這樣的人才只佔了6%,也就是說每100個專業人才有94個是本國的,只有6個是非本國的。"},{"start":3870.741,"end":3897.654,"text":"所以我們還要在以現在的出生率的狀態其實要盡快去準備未來跟競爭跟全世界競爭瞬間的人才需求尤其在AI跟資安數位方面所以謝謝委員好謝謝來那個曾天才委員第二輪發言主委這個我還是請你要慎重好我們先看"},{"start":3898.991,"end":3928.245,"text":"外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第四條什麼叫外國專業人才只得在我國從事專業工作之外國人專業工作那什麼是專業工作第四款有規定只下列工作就業服務法第一款只下列工作專業工作他有很多款"},{"start":3929.042,"end":3950.408,"text":"第一款,第四款的第一幕了。就業服務法第46條第一項第一款至第三款、第五款及第六款所定的工作。第二幕是就業服務法第48條第一項第一款及第三款所定工作。"},{"start":3951.667,"end":3974.146,"text":"第三目,依補習及進修教育法立案之短期補習班之專任外國語文教師或最專門之他什麼。這還有好幾專業工作有好幾目。這裡面就還要去看就業服務法的相關的這些到底是什麼。"},{"start":3977.068,"end":4003.996,"text":"本院委員羅美玲等16條條文修正草案第十四條的第一項,第一款是什麼?專門性或技術性之工作,它是很廣的你不要只想到AI還是什麼,某個特別的專業的特定我們台灣比較少有的這方面專業的比較少的,你不能只想到那個部分因為這個一開就全部開了"},{"start":4005.643,"end":4033.735,"text":"因為這裡面第四十六條的第一項的第一款就是專門性及或技術性工作它是很廣的然後呢第三款是什麼呢公立或經歷案之私立大專以上校院或外國僱民學校之教師老師很多大專校院的老師都可以一樣都適用"},{"start":4036.056,"end":4057.703,"text":"包括第五款、第六款還有四、八條、第一項、第一款及第三款所以教育不好所以你們也要去認真到底我們學我們很多大這個博士、學士、碩士找不到學校教的也有很多啊所以這個不是在整體的整體的去評估、去考量"},{"start":4066.386,"end":4094.982,"text":"這是很專業的而且很廣的所以這個部分我對今天這個各部會上次我看了那個報告就覺得怎麼會這樣我是30年公務員啊各部會怎麼樣應該去應用自己的怎麼不要影響到我們臺灣的就業各行各業都有了專門性工作太廣了"},{"start":4097.216,"end":4126.665,"text":"我們很多博士一樣啊沒有學校可以教啊現在學校學校越來越少啦除非去修嘛去修這個專門性工作是什麼要把它限縮除非是這樣啊現在很多大學又要減少啦那博士又去哪裡怎麼辦呢大家必須要去整體的去衡量啊我真的是拜託大家"},{"start":4128.581,"end":4154.313,"text":"好 謝謝那政委員您是反對這個條文的修正嗎我是認為這種特別的一定要國發會在整體跟各部會整體的去評估我不盡然說一定要像你們的說法一定要行政院版本我不會這樣認為啦但是"},{"start":4156.69,"end":4157.751,"text":"五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、繼續審查五、"},{"start":4182.878,"end":4211.087,"text":"大家都有去做過這個討論所以今天會有一個建議修正的條文包括本席的案子羅美玲委員的案子賴瑞榮委員的提案大家都會有做一些文字上的調整那如果沒有大家都同意的話我們是不是這個其實是沒有啊沒有推來推去啊"},{"start":4214.045,"end":4238.006,"text":"那你要看這一次的因為這個已經大家已經協商過了已經協調過了因為這個不會影響到國人的就業問題這個是外國的專業人才來台灣的的因為我們要延攬一些外國的專業人才所以這個跟國內的就業市場是兩兩回事我們只是提供一個更好的更優惠的環境讓更多人願意到台灣來或限收在那那那些地方嗎"},{"start":4244.469,"end":4264.583,"text":"當面啊,大家沒有聽懂嗎?專民性工作很廣啊無論是從這個外國專業人才延攬及僱用法裡面所訂的條文然後再引用到的就業服務法46條、48條這個都很廣啊"},{"start":4269.578,"end":4283.966,"text":"來那個政委員我因為這個是現行法令已經有了我們只是讓他的這個比如說副學士的取得的折抵的時間在放寬碩士博士的這個折抵時間在放寬我們不是寫立一個法所以這個在我們就業人才法裡頭其實已經就有我們只是把那個限縮讓他再放寬一點因為現在全世界都在追求這個各類的人才"},{"start":4296.411,"end":4298.232,"text":"那我們是不是休息五分鐘?謝委員你要不要跟鄭委員溝通一下好不好?"},{"start":4843.18,"end":4848.799,"text":"你今天保留的話沒有時間協商因為就到九月以後去了"},{"start":4907.861,"end":4920.393,"text":"不是啦,這個我再度跟委員說明一下,這一個條文跟原住民或者是跟國內的就業市場一點關係都沒有。一點關係都沒有。那"},{"start":4923.115,"end":4932.96,"text":"因為剛剛鄭天才委員他有說的部分包括教育部、勞動部還有國發會的部分那剛剛經過他們幾個單位的確認其實都不影響就我們的修法都不影響那我們是不是可以在"},{"start":4941.484,"end":4943.866,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員羅美玲等20人擬具"},{"start":4961.676,"end":4975.417,"text":"他包括說教育部他現在擔心的是教育部在大學教授還有我們老師的任用部分會受到影響那勞動部會說勞工會受到影響然後呢國發會是什麼會受到影響"},{"start":4978.663,"end":4979.963,"text":"各位委員,這個條文討論的是居留時間的折抵"},{"start":5000.811,"end":5027.039,"text":"不是工作權的折抵請大家看清楚條文我們現在談的是他居留時間的折抵我知道可是問題是他居留時間的折抵就鄭委員的說法還是可能會影響到就是會限縮到這個原住民學生或者相關權益的這樣子那這個部分原住民學生不需要申請我國居留因為原住民是我國的國民"},{"start":5028.374,"end":5046.941,"text":"這條條文基本上跟原住民無關啦但是會跟一般我們的這些台灣的人才台灣的這些就業機會有關係啦這條條文跟原住民無關啦我剛剛只是舉例子啦"},{"start":5053.891,"end":5055.272,"text":"我還是再提醒大家一下因為原來就有現行條文"},{"start":5070.899,"end":5098.439,"text":"對於外國專業人才在台灣的居留時間包括包含他們過去在台灣求學的時間那我們現在只是把這個折抵的年限再放寬一些希望能夠讓更多的在台灣求學的曾經在台灣求學的這些專業的人才能夠留下來在台灣貢獻他們的所學不過就是這樣而已所以這個跟原住民沒有關係那這個也沒有影響到"},{"start":5099.36,"end":5124.036,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":5124.516,"end":5150.641,"text":"幾位委員的修正版本來通過好不好因為今天如果保留了之後我們未來沒有時間協商你還要再等到9月10月下一個會期開議之後那下個會期開議又要審預算那個協商的時間可能又會再往後壓縮我們是不是懇請各位委員能夠支持這樣的一個修正動議修正版本好不好還是要協商今天出委會沒關係"},{"start":5156.823,"end":5179.29,"text":"我想委員我來自企業我舉幾個例子給個委員聽一下大概在4年前在五股有一家企業來找我找我的原因很簡單他們的訂單被越南搶走了那搶走的原因是什麼呢是英國的客戶在越南找到了"},{"start":5180.506,"end":5203.926,"text":"第二供應商,那這些供應商是早年在台灣被訓練出去的。那我們把他訓練了十年,他回到了越南,他們投入這個市場,搶走了我們這個客戶的訂單。搶走了多少呢?一家公司搶走了22億,影響了200個家庭。影響了200個家庭。當時很多的廠商都在講說,難道優秀的人我們為什麼不能把他留下來?"},{"start":5204.767,"end":5231.746,"text":"而送出去到別的國家跟我們競爭搶走我們台灣人民的飯碗我只是舉例給委員知道一下現在這個法令是針對一些優秀的人才已經有工作了在企業裡面工作的人然後這個企業如果覺得他是一個很優秀的人才希望他不要離開我們有一個方式讓他留下來而不是把他送到別的國家跟我們競爭我請委員多考慮一下這是在企業界我看到的心聲"},{"start":5232.452,"end":5260.505,"text":"好 謝謝劉主委這麼清楚的說明主委你講的那個部分我絕對支持重點是重點是現在的條文外國專業人才的定義不是限收在你剛才講的如果你剛才講的那個部分我絕對支持但是因為現在所謂的外國專業人才的定義"},{"start":5261.829,"end":5275.146,"text":"是很廣的是很廣所以竹偉你講的我絕對支持但是因為剛才我講的你現在要放寬因為放寬不是只針對你剛剛講的那個專業"},{"start":5277.691,"end":5277.971,"text":"三、繼續審查三、繼續審查"},{"start":5297.018,"end":5312.011,"text":"我沒有意見但是相關的數據要提供然後呢本來是只有博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士博士"},{"start":5321.343,"end":5347.277,"text":"不得合併折抵這個一樣所以有一些有放寬的部分那我們總是要了解放寬之後的影響是如何有沒有這樣的一個評估報告那現況的是怎麼樣那折抵的放寬形式之後我們台灣的大專校院的人才"},{"start":5349.008,"end":5351.849,"text":"本院委員王定宇等16人擬具"},{"start":5362.111,"end":5364.513,"text":"委員我說明一下專業的定義是按照企業的需求來定的"},{"start":5380.726,"end":5402.599,"text":"我也說明一下目前我們統計下來從民國111年到112年目前為止可以折抵一年的是501人可以折抵兩年的是197人這個數字是非常低的可是對企業而言能留下兩個人就是兩個人三個人就三個人但是整個國家就是這麼少阿如果放寬協事協會的話呢?"},{"start":5405.262,"end":5409.903,"text":"我再跟委員報告一個數字,我們評估到2030年我們需要40萬的人才,我們目前供給量是26萬多,我們差14萬多。"},{"start":5427.728,"end":5456.016,"text":"即使我們放寬,我們都不見得有補得上這14萬的人力缺口。這個請委員也幫考慮一下這個社會的需求。好來那個我是不是因為王定宇委員賴瑞榮委員有舉手先讓他們講完之後我們這條是不是就先保留我們先處理下一條等一下再回來好不好好也讓那個鄭委員也思考一下然後你們勞動部教育部可以看一下你們能不能把那個評估報告送上來好來那個王定宇委員"},{"start":5457.156,"end":5484.972,"text":"謝謝主席那個這年這年委員擔心的是影響衝擊到國內的就業市場但這些條文有幾個基本的定義第一個是現有這些工作就是這些外籍朋友在工作的所以他不會有新的衝擊就業市場第二個我們現在台灣面對的困境是培養成熟的技術勞工或者是優秀的專業白領人才"},{"start":5486.093,"end":5502.516,"text":"我們有個限定年限到了他就走了我們得幫別的國家在培養技術勞工把一領人才這個對沒有一個國家會會這樣做第三個加上我們國內這樣子的缺工台灣在國際化國際人才快速的流通你不管是從"},{"start":5503.357,"end":5532.2,"text":"從AI到一般的精密機械的製造所以這一塊剛才我聽起來政經財委員其實是不反對這些計算方式但是這些計算方式跟人去占到那個工作其實是平行線的它是不會影響到的但是因為我們這個每慢每慢一次可能就影響很大像我待會那個21條之一那個是在台灣已經繳稅而且他已經工作甚至結婚十幾十年以上"},{"start":5533.161,"end":5541.934,"text":"結果他在台灣連基本的社會福利都不能享用他有繳稅他不能享用那我上次在這邊做提案說明報告那個法國人就在前天6月15號過世了"},{"start":5543.598,"end":5544.379,"text":"來,樂瑞隆委員"},{"start":5572.201,"end":5593.002,"text":"這個條文主要也是在處理外國專業人才跟外國特定專業人才那事實上這個現行就要實施了而且他有國家也因為要確保所以他有相關的一些界定就認定某些我們需要的確實找不到的所以才引用這些進來甚至於他對國家整個整體的產業跟經濟有所幫助所以用這個因為他有可能因為"},{"start":5593.622,"end":5622.475,"text":"這些人才在台灣的禁用之後有可能讓更多外資來台灣投資或者是產業留在台灣而沒有外移出去所以他反而會創造出更多的就業機會甚至有可能是其他更中低階的就業機會反倒對我們國人的一些工作有可能帶到刺激的效果所以我是覺得當現在也只有幾百位聽起來只有幾百位的影響那我們的缺口這麼大的時候我認為適度的一些讓他們在居留的權限上面再多一點點的放寬讓這些人才更願意"},{"start":5623.135,"end":5625.016,"text":"本院委員王定宇等16人擬具:「外國專業人才延攬及僱用法第十四條之一條之一條之一條"},{"start":5651.053,"end":5657.8,"text":"我認為這些通過對於整個立法院的形象都有正面的效果所以我是希望各位委員能夠大力支持好 謝謝 來陳廷飛委員"},{"start":5661.003,"end":5684.113,"text":"我想我們今天如果說這個條文被這樣子沒有講清楚我覺得會被誤解我們就很清楚針對就是人才今天我們如何讓他有誘因然後能夠有一些條件來讓他願意來到台灣這是很重要這不影響到我們目前"},{"start":5685.233,"end":5685.733,"text":"本院委員王定宇等16人擬具"},{"start":5708.348,"end":5732.159,"text":"不過與不過,我覺得這個優先條件是要先把問題講清楚、釐清清楚。我們對的是國外人才的誘因。跟我們本國人才的任用還有他們的一個工作權是毫無關係的。我們不要被這樣的一個誤導。我覺得這個要講清楚、說明白。"},{"start":5732.819,"end":5761.608,"text":"所以我認為這個案子必須通過的原因是我們真的是落後人家太久了我剛剛講說其實這個應該是在第一時間我們政府發現問題就要提出來的可是我們延宕了那麼久才提出來這是事隔好多年之後又提出來的一個部分而且又是由委員提案等於是委員比你們更動機整個國際情勢所以這是晚了很久好幾年了所以不能再拖了"},{"start":5762.208,"end":5788.308,"text":"那跟我們本國人才的任用是毫無關係不會影響到我們的工作權跟我們本國人才的被任用這個部分必須講清楚對謝謝委員這的確我們現在面臨問題而且最近有一家企業他因為找不到人決定把他的研發放到美國去那這對國家是一個很大的損失所以我還是希望政委員能多考慮一下"},{"start":5791.004,"end":5808.03,"text":"我還是跟各位委員說明一下這個條文開宗明義就這一條第十四條開宗明義就講外國專業人才在我國從事專業工作所以指的是已經在我國工作的人"},{"start":5808.67,"end":5823.084,"text":"那我們接下來要放寬的是這些人過去曾經在台灣就學在台灣求學他可能讀碩士、讀學士、讀博士那我們把他過去讀書的那一段時間那個期間"},{"start":5825.146,"end":5841.119,"text":"把他折抵他未來能夠在台灣申請永久居留的時間把他折抵進去所以第一個他不影響未來的就業市場這些人是本來已經現在在台灣就學第二個他在台灣他所受的專業訓練是在台灣"},{"start":5843.681,"end":5858.793,"text":"獲得的專業訓練,所以他是台灣訓練出來的專業人才,我們只是把他合併計算他在台灣求學的那個時間的年資,把他併進去他未來可以申請永久居留的年資折抵而已"},{"start":5859.654,"end":5876.145,"text":"所以這個也不影響國內的就業市場也不是另外開一個門你國外有讀大學有讀博士的人你來台灣就可以直接折底年資不是這樣是他在台灣就學的年資折底第三我們台灣訓練這麼多好的人才如果因為條件太過嚴苛讓這些人才回到或者是去到其他的國家的話這都是台灣的損失所以我是不是能夠懇請"},{"start":5890.114,"end":5911.899,"text":"正委員能夠支持這個提案修正好不好來來謝謝范委其實剛才正委員說的就是當然我們知道說這不是這只是說是說把他們降低他們留在台灣的門檻那當然到底跟就是所謂的我們也不能夠"},{"start":5912.939,"end":5928.222,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、繼續審查八、繼續審查八、繼續審查九、繼續審查十一、繼續審查十一、繼續審查十一、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、繼續審查十二、"},{"start":5939.964,"end":5940.825,"text":"議員王定宇等16人擬具"},{"start":5961.138,"end":5961.318,"text":"議員王定宇"},{"start":5980.67,"end":5995.255,"text":"關於這一點我説明一下這個是這個對僱外生目前教育部所找的外籍生子從直接海外進來的但是我們指的是在這裏畢業的在這裏畢業的那這裏畢業的大部分目前的科系"},{"start":5996.215,"end":6012.793,"text":"我知道那既然沒有在我是說雖然現在沒有在可是我們這次的修法通過以後未來如果有這樣子的一個開放那當然它就符合相關的這樣子的一個規範嘛那"},{"start":6014.275,"end":6039.833,"text":"所以可是這對於我們目前公司裡的大學的教師還有高中的外師以及雙語學校的學科教師等等的確我們目前國內的教師都有相關的就是找不到就是沒有辦法就是有職缺的情況下那未來會不會也變成另外一項衝擊我認為國發會必須要"},{"start":6042.711,"end":6057.845,"text":"就是去考量那當然你以目前的資料顯示沒有相關性但是在我們今天修法以後就是同樣的同等的開放那會不會有相關的影響的時候我認為這一個的確是國發會必須要相關的"},{"start":6062.449,"end":6084.617,"text":"委員跟委員再補充說明一下齁這個只是條件之一不是全部條件齁他還有一個評點制評點制他會有一個評點分數要70分以上齁那這個評點制的部分就可以做到委員講的去做適度的控制當然我們認為他發生的距離品不大因為他對於高中來講是只有外國語那這種這種"},{"start":6086.758,"end":6113.353,"text":"外國語跑到台灣來學英文系的我們自己認為應該是可以得到一定的控制那如果將來再做過評點的話他的評點分數如果不夠高他還是一樣沒有他只是這個只是縮短他的實現而已主委你這個齁我跟謝委員講一下啦如果擔心是外資我講真實的狀況我現在某一個學校要請一個外資我會請一個高中生來台灣讀完大學"},{"start":6114.761,"end":6115.402,"text":"．立法院議員王定宇等16人擬具"},{"start":6134.249,"end":6136.33,"text":"我剛再度提醒大家這個條文的前提是這些人是在台灣就學的"},{"start":6153.92,"end":6179.612,"text":"不是他在國外飛來台灣然後就要折抵台灣的居留證這個是大前提就是他曾經在台灣留學在台灣讀書的把他留學的那個兩年三年的時間折抵他未來申請永久居留的資格就這樣你們大家再想一下所以這條我先保留我們先回到我們先到進到先下一條21條之一那21條之一的新修正條文現在有唸了嗎"},{"start":6184.438,"end":6208.505,"text":"那個好像有楊瓊英委員的修正動議是不是好那先讓他們印一下那個條文剛剛已經已經有宣讀過了啦那我是不是有有沒有委員要先發表意見那個王定宇委員好謝謝主席因為我現在在另外一個委員會要主持會議我跟大家拜託這21條之一我在提案說明就說過這個是針對在台灣"},{"start":6212.226,"end":6233.581,"text":"內基居留超過十年以上他有工作有繳稅甚至於在台灣都已經有家庭可他不能適用我們相關的社會福利那我上次舉一個法國人娶了一個高雄的太太然後他太太在三年前因為癌症過世他被診斷出健動人症就他連復康巴士都不能申請"},{"start":6234.642,"end":6250.653,"text":"後來我們也謝謝我們相關部會那時候去找到法國有允許台灣人在法國使用他們的社會福利所以這一位Michael他最後也可以用互惠的方式來取得我們相關社會福利他拿到這個之後他就過世了"},{"start":6251.774,"end":6267.819,"text":"他還沒使用他在前天過世了那這一個條文其實是說當我們前面那一段在爭論的是我們在招攬這些優秀的國際人才通常都是屬於年輕壯年時期但是如果他在台灣貢獻他的青春把台灣當作他的家"},{"start":6268.579,"end":6269.74,"text":"一、繼續審查二、繼續審查三、繼續審查四、繼續審查五、繼續審查六、繼續審查七、"},{"start":6301.536,"end":6321.928,"text":"委員王定宇委員那因為現在有那個謝依鳳委員、楊全英委員有一個修正動議我們是不是請那個議事人員先宣讀一下請問大家桌上是不是都有收到拿到那個修正動議請宣讀委員謝依鳳等所提修正動議同委員邱益穎等所提修正動議宣讀完畢"},{"start":6323.91,"end":6324.09,"text":"楊瓊英委員"},{"start":6340.679,"end":6340.819,"text":"三、繼續審查"},{"start":6359.089,"end":6378.504,"text":"這個條文的部分就是說未來我們的方向還有它的一個限縮性是不是能夠實時幫助到我們這些需要幫助的而且也不會擴及到其他範圍擴大而影響到大家所擔心的這個所謂健保的一個問題或是一些醫療的問題"},{"start":6383.044,"end":6384.705,"text":"議員王定宇等二、繼續審查"},{"start":6398.012,"end":6400.694,"text":"本院委員羅美玲等一、繼續審查本院委員王定宇等一、繼續審查本院委員王定宇等一、繼續審查"},{"start":6424.588,"end":6424.988,"text":"我也謝謝這個提案的委員"},{"start":6443.103,"end":6470.445,"text":"我謝謝提案的委員那在這個修正動力裡頭像我們台中國會會主委在這邊我們台中的經營園區、科園區、工業區讓他覺得很多這樣子的人才回到了台灣然後他也學習到很多技術甚至有的他也已經跟原來的老闆合作再去開子公司"},{"start":6471.266,"end":6486.843,"text":"我想您來自產業最了解這個情勢所以在上一任王美花鋪長的時候我們也陪她一起到看到這些的問題尤其在精明園區裡頭有很多這樣的現象而且她已經"},{"start":6488.565,"end":6515.961,"text":"他也有生孩子的都在這邊了但是他取不到這樣子的一個資格所以我們就很歡喜那當然這個在21條裡頭的21條之一因為這全球大家都關心的也就是身心障礙的這個部分所以我們也特別在詳細把它這個細目寫清楚到時候再給主委你這邊在做的時候會更加的方便"},{"start":6516.701,"end":6534.519,"text":"那這個重點也就是在第一項資格而經過內政部這個很重要了內政部移民署撤銷或者是廢止其永久居留許可者終止適用身心障礙者權益保障在我們的第50條51條以及"},{"start":6537.182,"end":6555.299,"text":"因為現在這一塊很重要我本席現在念的長照服務法第八條之一第四項規定所提供的服務的權益但因為回復我國的國籍取得我國國籍或兼具我國國籍經撤銷或廢止"},{"start":6556.3,"end":6556.5,"text":"本院委員"},{"start":6571.883,"end":6593.955,"text":"我經常說的我們在地方探求明末我們希望這個法通過之後是要執行者可以執行政府的公部門也可以去發揮執行這樣子才能夠達到雙成的效果要不然如果沒有嚴定清楚的時候到時候又有模糊的空間那隨時再陳請這個是"},{"start":6597.337,"end":6613.89,"text":"這個三敗俱傷所以我們特別要把這個部分的來理清楚那內政部你平民點頭在你審定的時候也就是你要不要再說明一下國防會的內政部是這一個沒關係啦來一併說明清楚衛福部來那個長照司副司長"},{"start":6618.542,"end":6618.582,"text":"一、繼續審查"},{"start":6636.337,"end":6636.818,"text":"本院委員王定宇等16人擬具"},{"start":6655.779,"end":6677.2,"text":"好來請問各位委員如果沒有意見的話我們第20新增的第21條之一的條文是不是依照本席跟楊瓊英委員的修正動議條文通過好不好楊委員好好如果沒有意見的話那因為文字上可能有一些調整我們是不是就授權議事人員去做文字的調整處理好那"},{"start":6680.267,"end":6697.058,"text":"第十四條,請問大家有沒有意見我們是不是照這個邱益穎委員、賴瑞榮委員、羅美玲委員三個委員的版本再修正通過?主委會在寫上了"},{"start":6706.495,"end":6732.03,"text":"第十四條保留請宣讀學生結論外國專業人才延攬及僱用法學生結論第十二條趙委員、邱志偉等人及委員賴瑞榮等人提案通過第十四條保留送院會處理增訂第21條之一修正通過參照今日邱委員及楊委員分別所提修正動議文字通過謝謝"},{"start":6734.124,"end":6756.301,"text":"宣讀完畢好請問各位同仁剛宣讀的寫上結論有沒有意義好沒有意義的話我們就通過討論事項所列外國專業人才延攬及僱用辦法僱用法部分條文修正草案並按審查文具擬具審查報告提報院會討論那因為我們還有條文要寫上我們就這個"},{"start":6759.144,"end":6768.174,"text":"我們會再擇期再進行協商那已經通過的條文相關的法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家散會"},{"start":6953.379,"end":6954.326,"text":"二、繼續審查本院委員"}]}},{"id":"16016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16016","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e4704513b222bf9e48bd03a951da4504b19186e52af124432701a378c7447f1f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」4案：\n(一)\t行政院函請審議「加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員黃捷等17人、委員吳宗憲等18人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修正草案」等3案。\n二、審查「加值型及非加值型營業稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員張宏陸等22人擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第六條之一及第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員林思銘等27人、委員洪孟楷等18人、委員郭昱晴等18人、委員陳菁徽等17人分別擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修正草案」等4案。\n(三)\t本院委員林楚茵等18人擬具「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第三十二條之一及第四十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【6月17日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-17T08:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T10:15:00+08:00","duration":6286,"影片長度":"01:44:46","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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等4案。」4."},{"start":2237.226,"end":2256.096,"text":"審查委員林儲英等18人及委員陳金輝等17人分別擬具:「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修正草案 等4案。」5."},{"start":2256.096,"end":2259.038,"text":"審查委員林儲英等18人擬具"},{"start":2259.52,"end":2284.113,"text":"加值型及非加值型營業稅法第三十二條之一及第四十八條之二條文修正草案案。現在請議事人員宣讀加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案等十案之條文。關乎"},{"start":2287.998,"end":2290.601,"text":"沒有修正動議,好的謝謝預計宣讀時間是10分鐘宣讀完畢後預計9點25分進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":2303.447,"end":2326.207,"text":"宣讀加值型及非加值型營業稅法修正草案等10案第六條之一部分行政院提案對照現行條文除第一項、第二項俱中加工出口區及科學工業園區等文字分別修正為科技產業園區及科學園區其餘未修正委員張宏祿等人提案經對照同行政院提案條文"},{"start":2327.088,"end":2350.069,"text":"第八條部分台灣民眾黨黨團提案對照現行條文增訂第一項第三三款為三三經財政部公告之生理用品清單並因每年更新一次必要時財政部得會商中央目的事業主管機關其餘未修正委員黃捷等人提案對照現行條文增訂第一項第三三款為三三"},{"start":2350.949,"end":2368.905,"text":"經主管機關公告之月經生理用品其餘未修正、委員吳宗憲等人提案,對照現行條文,增訂第一項第三三款為三三經財政部公告之生理用品清單,並因每年更新一次,必要使財政部得會上中央目的事業主管機關。"},{"start":2370.146,"end":2386.667,"text":"其餘未修正、委員張宏祿等人提案對照現行條文增訂第一項第三三款為33衛生棉衛生棉條不衛生棉、生理庫及月經用內褲等經主管機關公告至月經生理用品其餘未修正"},{"start":2387.928,"end":2390.29,"text":"委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、"},{"start":2403.669,"end":2424.468,"text":"委員紅木楷等人提案,對照現行條文,增訂第一項第三三款為三三衛生棉、衛生棉墊、衛生棉條、月經量杯、布衛生棉、生理庫計、月經內褲等多元生理用品其餘未修正、委員顧玉琴等人提案,對照現行條文,增訂第一項第三三款為"},{"start":2426.35,"end":2443.807,"text":"33 衛生棉、衛生棉墊、衛生棉條、月經量杯、布衛生棉、生理庫及月經內褲其餘未修正委員陳清輝等人提案對照現行條文增訂第一項第33款為33 經主管機關公告之母性生理用品其餘未修正"},{"start":2447.779,"end":2471.725,"text":"第32條之一部分行政院提案對照現行條文除第一項前段修正規營業人銷售貨物或勞務依前條第四項規定以網際網路或其他電子方式開立傳輸電子發票者應依規定實現將其開立電子發票及相關必要資訊傳輸至財政部電子發票整合"},{"start":2472.245,"end":2494.614,"text":"服務平台存證第二項第二款據中電子票證文字修正為儲值卡以及增訂第四項為第一項規定之傳輸時限開立電子發票及相關必要資訊之範圍由財政部公告之其已未修正委員林儲英等人提案對照現行條文除第一項前段修正為"},{"start":2495.774,"end":2517.64,"text":"一類人銷售貨物或勞物依前條第四項規定以忘記網路或其他電子方式開立傳輸電子發票者應依規定時限將其開立電子發票及相關資訊傳輸至財政部電子發票整合服務平台存證第二項第二款據中電子票證文字修正為儲值卡"},{"start":2518.981,"end":2523.187,"text":"徵定第四項為,第一項所稱規定時限,指下列營運開立後一定時限內傳輸,"},{"start":2526.363,"end":2548.961,"text":"一、開立電子發票至營業人、買售人為非營業人者,一與開立後48小時內將統一發票資訊傳輸至平台存證,並因使買售人得與該平台查詢,接受上開資訊,如有發票作廢、銷貨退回或遮讓,捐贈或列印電子發票證明簾等變更發票資訊時一同。"},{"start":2551.854,"end":2568.513,"text":"二、開立電子發票之營業人、買售人為營業人者應於開立後7日內將統一發票資訊傳輸至平台存證並由平台通知買售人接收買售人位於平台設定接受方式者應由開立人通知"},{"start":2569.71,"end":2588.15,"text":"能有發票作廢、銷貨退回或責讓時,開立人應依上開實現完成交易相對人接收,即將資訊傳輸至平台存證。三、開立人符合前二款規定者,視為已將統一發票交付買售人,買售人視為已取得統一發票。"},{"start":2589.972,"end":2608.884,"text":"但有其他不可規則與營業人之事由至無法依請二項規定辦理者因與事實消滅之一日起算三日內完成傳輸並向所在地主管基徵機關申請經該管基徵機關核准者適同於依規定交付。增訂第五項為"},{"start":2610.245,"end":2632.516,"text":"第一項所稱相關資訊,細指營業人開立統一發票,除因分別依規定格式據時載名、字、軌號碼、交易日期、品名、數量、單價、金額、銷售額、科稅別、稅額及總計外,因應下列規定辦理,但其買售人為非營業人者,因應定價開立。"},{"start":2635.16,"end":2652.696,"text":"一、營業人使用三聯市統一發票者、因載名、買售人名稱及統一編號二、製造業或經營進口貿易之營業人、銷售貨物或勞務與非營業人開立之統一發票因載名、買售人名稱及地址或身分證統一編號"},{"start":2657.901,"end":2684.63,"text":"3、營業人對買售人為非營業人所開立之同意發票,除簽款規定外,得免填買售人名稱及地址,但兼買售人要求者不在此限。4、本法第六條第四款所定營業人開立雲端發票應記載事項,得以外文為之,交易日期得以西元日期表示,單價金額及總計得以外幣列示,但應加注即價必別。"},{"start":2685.936,"end":2700.083,"text":"以及增訂第六項為一月人開立統一發票以分類號碼代替平民者應先將代替平民之分類號碼對照表報請主管期增機關備查一東一東其餘未修正"},{"start":2701.809,"end":2714.842,"text":"行政院提案增訂第48條之二為一、為人以網際網路或其他電子方式開立、傳輸電子發票為依第32條之一第一項規定實現或為據實將其應開立電子發票與相關必要資訊及滿受人在"},{"start":2720.667,"end":2733.373,"text":"具識別資訊傳輸至財政部電子發票整合服務平台存證者,除通知限期補證外,並得儲新台幣1500元以上法還借其為補證或補證不實者,得按次處罰。"},{"start":2740.932,"end":2758.025,"text":"委員吳宗憲等人提案增訂第48條之二為營業人與網際網路或其他電子方式開立傳輸電子發票,為依第32條之一第一項規定傳輸至財政部電子發票整合服務平台存證者,依下列規定辦理。"},{"start":2759.346,"end":2782.706,"text":"一、為於實現內傳書或有缺漏者,除訂期間命期補正外,並得儲新台幣1500元以上、15000元以下罰還。二、為據實傳書者除訂期間命期補正外,並得儲新台幣3000元以上、30000元以下罰還。三、藉其為補正或補正不實者,得按次處罰。"},{"start":2784.741,"end":2812.461,"text":"行政院提案第五十條對交現行條文處第一項修正為納稅義務人與其繳納稅款者應加徵至納金與三十日人為繳納者處一宋強制止行外並得停止其營業以及第二項後段修正為依各年度一月一日有證儲金一年期定期儲金固定利率按日計算利息一併徵收其餘未修正以上宣讀完畢"},{"start":3285.063,"end":3286.765,"text":"請問剛剛所宣讀的議事錄內容有沒有錯誤?沒有錯誤,議事錄確定。現在進行協商。"},{"start":3317.877,"end":3344.058,"text":"各位委員大家好那我們現在進行今天的加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案因為今天內容大概有兩個方向那我們是不是從第一個就是有關雲端可以報稅這方面先開始來處理其中相關的是第6條之一、第32條之一、第48條之二以及第50條"},{"start":3346.139,"end":3355.049,"text":"這是第一個我們今天協商也是早上先處理的一個部分那現在是請財政部我們莊部長要不要說明"},{"start":3361.323,"end":3372.61,"text":"第六條之一跟各位委員報告。第六條之一基本上是一個文字修正也就是說原來的加工出口區因為相關的管理條例修正以後它的名稱已經稱為科技產業園區所以我們這裡就配合修正"},{"start":3376.753,"end":3401.34,"text":"另外就是原來的科學工業園區因為相關的管理條例修正以後它的名稱改為科學園區所以我們就把這兩個名稱在這裡做配合修正所以主要是在第一項跟第二項都是做文字的修正好 那針對第六條之一的部分就是大概名稱的部分請問現場各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":3403.124,"end":3418.611,"text":"因為我們之前也都已經討論過了有大體討論所以第六條之一如果都沒有意見照行政院版本照行政院提案通過確定接著我們請判到第32條之一"},{"start":3432.416,"end":3440.885,"text":"第32條之一的修正重點最主要是對於有關電子發票的開立我們這裡有規定說應該這個開立人要在規定的時間內把它"},{"start":3445.389,"end":3471.786,"text":"開立的電子發票還有相關的必要資訊傳輸到我們的電子發票整合服務平台來存證以及對於相關這個營業人也要把這個載具的識別資訊也要去存證這個是第一項主要修正那在最後一項最主要就是說有關實現以及開立發票的相關資訊的範圍由財政部公告之也就是授權財政部另行做比較細節的一個規定"},{"start":3473.647,"end":3484.017,"text":"那這個主要的目的呢就是讓營業人我們要掌握營業人他對電子發票的一個開立情形那可以防止稅捐的逃漏同時也讓消費者他在對保可以保障他們的對獎權益來確保另外就是確保買售人可以在我們的電子發票的這個服務平台裡面去查詢"},{"start":3493.426,"end":3497.489,"text":"相關的一些資訊那麼對於會計師跟記帳業者他們受託辦理相關營業人的一些相關資料的運用也更好所以第一個實現上要規定第二個就是說相關的資訊也要能夠傳輸到那邊同時對於消費者的相關的電子發票的載具也要存證這是保護消費者也是保護有關我們的稅源同時也是"},{"start":3517.304,"end":3544.272,"text":"保護濟帳業者他們在處理這些帳證的時候會更明確。這個最主要是這一條規定的修正的重點。好的,謝謝莊部長。我詢問一下,本來這個應該就是有這樣的規定,只是以前是用辦法,現在把它明文化而已。是,把它提升為法律位階。是。好,接下來請林楚英,再來是賴世保賴委員。"},{"start":3546.917,"end":3560.554,"text":"謝謝主席我想我本身有提出這個32條之一那主要是因為其實在上一屆的時候我就特別提到了有關於這個電子發票的部分其實現在很多人都是用雲端發票來使用"},{"start":3561.235,"end":3585.005,"text":"他常常會出現一個狀況就是民眾在使用的過程中因為他現在手上如果你不及時上傳的時候如果在有消費爭議的時候他很容易會變成他手上沒有單據那麼就會變成是雖然我們的美意是用雲端發票就不用有實體的紙張但是我會變成我擔心我後續有爭議我就會變成說那他會問你需不需要紙張的收據"},{"start":3585.985,"end":3612.004,"text":"那你為了必須要有一個證明因為如果說你上傳的方式出現有時間差的時候有一些他可能系統建置得很好他馬上上傳但是有一些如果說他有時間差那麼在造成爭議的時候就不好回復當然我知道財政部這裡說你們希望不要入法不要把這個所謂即時上傳或多久以內上傳入法你們會有一個行政上面的所謂其他的法規"},{"start":3613.305,"end":3634.034,"text":"來做配合 這個我可以接受但是我要強調的是入法的好處是讓所有的產業都可以有一致性因為畢竟喔 這個當你都能夠做到數位網路上面可以即時上傳那麼這樣子我們所謂做的雲端發票才有其意義因為我們知道有一些我只買一個品項、兩個品項品項少的時候發生爭議很好去處理"},{"start":3639.176,"end":3654.562,"text":"但是比如說我們到大賣場去買常常一買家庭主婦或家庭採購可能品項就會二三十項那那個時候如果有爭議的時候你又沒有辦法及時上傳發票那就會造成我為了保障我還是希望能夠給一張單據這張單據方便我後來來做核對"},{"start":3659.184,"end":3688.016,"text":"所以本席還是會建議在修法的部分能夠能夠針對雲端上傳的相關的這個銷售的細項能夠及時的來做一個呈現可以避免在消費者跟商家之間的差異也避免就是可以造成這個美意受到打折好謝謝林楚英林委員這個是才有提案那是請總部長說明完然後請戴斯堡委員再發言"},{"start":3691.083,"end":3709.592,"text":"那先說謝謝林委員那我想我們在這裡委員是把相關的有關時限還有應該要就時間的限制以及應該要傳輸的一些資訊都把它在名列在這邊但是我們比較認為說就是說不要把它放在法條裡面為什麼因為這樣的話可以與時俱進雖然現在這邊講48小時未來逐步推展也許時間可以更縮短"},{"start":3714.835,"end":3738.516,"text":"或資訊為了隨著時間的滾動可能有需要相關的資訊更明確所以我們認為說由財政部來做公告那這樣子的話它的修正上的時時會更快然後透過法律的授權應該它是很有效率的我想這個部分跟委員說明所以我們建議是不要在法條裡面去做這麼比較細節性的或者是技術性的一些規定然後授權由財政部做公告以上說明是"},{"start":3742.67,"end":3758.558,"text":"就是我不堅持但是我希望就是在我們的相關的實行細則上面能夠明確的規定之外時間也能夠儘量的要求他們縮短好讓這個我們雲端發票的使用能夠上傳的部分真的達到他的美意介紹紙張浪費"},{"start":3760.475,"end":3786.986,"text":"我想這個部分我們來努力,然後真正達到五指化的目的是...好的,但是請副責署有提供你們準備的執行的相關方法,你們跟林委員說明一下好不好?你等一下再過去說明,因為我們現在會議都繼續在進行。現在請賴仕寶、賴委員。謝謝主席,各位先進囉。我就請教了,現在有載具的店家比利多手。"},{"start":3789.445,"end":3816.462,"text":"對我到很多店沒有載具啊7-11有啦全家有啦可是很多店也看起來不小的店沒有載具啊所以你就雲端發票我們一直要推啊我們要推雲端發票這裡面省掉幾十億張的發票這是好事但是我們就是我們現在要準備修這個法修這個法之後這個問題是跟得上嗎"},{"start":3817.523,"end":3837.838,"text":"比例多少?比例多少?雲端發票佔電子發票比例已經超過大概54%54%的發票那我們還會持續再繼續推廣當然您說那個載具有兩種可能有的齁他店員沒有問你有沒有載具有的時候他是會我覺得會主動說沒有我習慣就手機拿出來請載具刷載具阿沒有這樣阿有的時候很大間不是小間的喔"},{"start":3842.661,"end":3865.351,"text":"如果是甘麥店、小吃店就另外一件事了小吃店也不開票票啊可是有些店不算小的店而且是集團的店集團的店我就不要點名了沒有載具啊沒有載具啊你們再輔導一下吧你根本時間表就載具50幾%太少了"},{"start":3871.018,"end":3891.353,"text":"尤其是當了店家的加數,我們來整理一下跟委員報告,然後對後續的推廣的情形來做一些精進的一個改進這樣,好嗎?你到年底大概可以多少?你問提示到八成可不可以?年底八成有沒有可能?這是指那個是張數啦,我們剛剛講的是張數"},{"start":3893.174,"end":3915.549,"text":"你很簡單嘛,你看一些藥局,藥局基本上如果是比如說康氏美有,但是普通的康氏美有,普通的藥局沒有,但是有的集團也沒有啊,有的集團的店也沒有啊,這個東西這個東西對不對,我們"},{"start":3917.423,"end":3938.695,"text":"有的習慣是親愛的說:「欸,我要下財區,不啊!不啊!」然後又運發票幹什麼的請說明我補充一下齁,就是說一般我們要開運動發票的話第一個,那個就是商家,不叫載具,商家它是一個,它有一個pose,它有一個裝置它要再加裝一個裝置,它才能夠"},{"start":3942.038,"end":3956.051,"text":"是因為他會有建構的成本因為他要上船的時候加值中心會跟他收費那大家的他會自己有自己有加值中心他就不用去付費像譬如舉個例子像委員您知道的譬如我們去四大超商"},{"start":3956.511,"end":3971.157,"text":"他自己本身內部就有加值中心所以他不用付費給別人但是如果他比較沒那麼大規模的他要另外跟加值中心買他的服務他才能夠把發票上傳到雲端去"},{"start":3972.077,"end":3990.997,"text":"我們現在大概有這兩種我們現在像以前在中區跟台北的時候當局長的時候其實我們都把推動雲端發票列為非常重要的任務所以我們大部分都會列計畫就是說我們逐步輔導我們都有設定目標值的要求逐步的一個輔導加速"},{"start":3992.799,"end":3994.52,"text":"加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修"},{"start":4017.136,"end":4034.473,"text":"有一些成本必須要負擔所以每個月他要透過加值服務中心上傳那個是要付費的那我們財政資訊中心有提供免費但有些人會覺得說好像他不習慣他喜歡付費民間經營的加值中心"},{"start":4035.554,"end":4053.528,"text":"這次商家自己的選擇我們都是慢慢去輔導因為當涉及到商家要付錢的時候用強制的有收商家會有抗拒所以我們現在都是跟會計師跟計賬室我們合作透過他在服務他的商家的時候去把這個部分導入"},{"start":4054.949,"end":4067.413,"text":"這幾年其實是成長蠻多但是我要跟委員報告說以下什麼到八成其實究竟台灣還是有城鄉的差距有時候並不是這麼容易但我們一定會努力的會努力因為這是未來的趨勢"},{"start":4070.041,"end":4088.907,"text":"現在電子發票占的86%我們現在就是我們有全部的統一發票跟電子發票電子發票占統一發票的比例已經86%只是裡面有上雲端就是不用印那個證明簾的我們已經到54了我們已經到54了8成了8成了"},{"start":4091.806,"end":4118.528,"text":"再加一層可以嗎?民事說哪一個?對啊,民事。65、65。加一層。54變成64啦,什麼時候可以做到?可能不是,因為現在已經年終,是不是讓我們努力,逐步好不好?逐步,我們一定會努力的,因為這個是符合整個近年排放的目標。你剛剛講了一句話,你說你們的資訊中心也有開發"},{"start":4120.188,"end":4130.156,"text":"藏家你要鼓勵藏家用我們花了納稅你的錢花了你們不叫他用要用民間去用很奇怪的很奇怪的下一層到六層就很不簡單了"},{"start":4136.331,"end":4153.638,"text":"相關的資訊、詳細的資料在會後交一份給賴仕寶、賴委員。另外我想請教部長,影響的商家大概是有多少家?對於消費者來講,他有什麼好處?"},{"start":4155.721,"end":4171.064,"text":"當然啦,我們這個電池發票推動大概有8、9年的時間我們也知道這個是逐步、一步一步來完成那你這個影響的加速,你們有沒有一個輔導的期間是不是可以說明一下?麥克風請署長說明一下數字"},{"start":4178.854,"end":4189.823,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前使用電子發票加數有54萬多家其中我們曾發現他沒有在規定期限上傳的大概佔了11%左右"},{"start":4194.506,"end":4211.268,"text":"所以大概加起來就是大概5萬8千多家就是違反規定的沒有依照規定期限上傳的大概5萬8千多家那我們會設定目標就是一直不斷的去輔導他們一定要一線上傳"},{"start":4212.269,"end":4233.596,"text":"現在如果因為我們現在是用在統一發票使用辦法裡面所以有些商家就會說你處罰並沒有一個法律的依據因為它是辦法的規定所以我們這次為什麼要入法就讓這些商家不能再用這個當理由來拒絕或抗拒這樣所以像今天有講是我們能夠入法以後這些商家就沒有理由了那法如果這個規定出來沒有照規定走的那罰多少錢"},{"start":4243.083,"end":4253.486,"text":"行政院版本提案修正通過。照行政院版本提案"},{"start":4272.571,"end":4294.774,"text":"通過,對好,接著請判斷第48條之二第48條之二是新增的也就是對於剛剛我們說的沒有按照那個實現來上傳以及把相關資料上傳的以及載具的資訊上傳的"},{"start":4296.175,"end":4321.479,"text":"那就會第一個會除了通知補正之外還可以處以新台幣的1500塊到15000元的一個罰款同時如果沒有補正、補正不實的就還可以按次處罰這最主要是一個處罰的規定是新增的也就是剛剛說的原來在辦法裡面提升到法律的位階以上補充好 謝謝各位委員針對這條有沒有意見沒有好 沒有意見"},{"start":4325.427,"end":4330.835,"text":"照行政院版本提案通過。請翻到第五十條。"},{"start":4332.932,"end":4353.158,"text":"第五十條的規定最主要是修正因為現在第一項裡面有這個加徵滯納金的一個計徵方式還有單書裡面也有規定有關不可抗力或不可規則在納稅業務人員的情況以至沒有辦法在法定期間內繳稅款的話呢經過核准、延期或分期繳納的話是可以免納滯納金的這樣的一個規定因為在稅捐計徵法裡面第20條都已經有規範了所以我們認為應該把它拿掉然後回歸到稅捐計徵法的一個規定來做辦理"},{"start":4362.681,"end":4390.577,"text":"另外也配合基增實務的作業我們修正了第二項明定應納稅款要加計利息的利率的基準日是各年度的1月1日使規定更為明確大概是把相關的規定做一個這樣的說明是好 謝謝 請問有沒有意見沒有意見第50條照行政院提案通過好 那是不是大家翻到第八條"},{"start":4393.206,"end":4415.553,"text":"第17頁因為有幾個委員,8個委員提案總共有8個委員提案,包括很多我們請參考今天的資料那請總部長有沒有什麼說明"},{"start":4417.367,"end":4432.932,"text":"有關第八條有八個提案提案主要是在這個第八條的第一項增略第33款對於這個有關女性生理用品可以免徵營業稅那在這裡我們可能特別說明一下我們我國的營業稅是採加值型營業稅的部分我們的營業稅是含在售價裡面"},{"start":4441.195,"end":4446.099,"text":"所以在含在售價裡面的時候消費者一次就付了那如果免徵營業稅的話那這個到底有沒有真的減徵以及所以這個減徵的效益是不是回歸到這個消費者那可能沒有辦法真正落實減徵的一個目的比如說我們買一包100塊但裡面5塊是稅那他減為95塊那改天98塊了或99塊了那到底是因為商家會跟你講說是因為我的成本費用提高了"},{"start":4470.396,"end":4490.735,"text":"還是他真的是把它關到他的利潤裡面這個很難去追查那這是第一點就是說讓這個效益沒有辦法真正回到消費者及女性的生理用品上那第二個部分呢就是說在積增食物上呢因為營業稅最後是有消費者負擔但是它是一層一層的如果在這樣子的話要達到免增營業稅的話可能每一層每一層都相關的營業稅的一個"},{"start":4491.896,"end":4516.337,"text":"基增的算怎麼樣去退這個都要重新計算所以在基增成本上是相對的高所以我們認為從實際上女性朋友能夠在這裡面能夠真正得到一個實益以及從基增成本來考量我們認為說是不是可以採取現在衛福部已經都有在做的相關的一些提供比如說衛福部對於在食物銀行就實際的吃的那個食物銀行裡面"},{"start":4519.4,"end":4523.525,"text":"已經要求可以要多放一些生理用品的"},{"start":4524.577,"end":4548.914,"text":"具點,增加這樣具點讓需要的婦女朋友可以去那邊去直接去領用直接去領用而且要避免標籤化避免標籤化讓他達到普遍性提升領用的一個意願都有5萬多人已經開始在做這樣的領用那另外在教育部呢也在高級中等學校友善提供多元的生理用品來推動所謂的月經平權計畫那在112年呢他已經"},{"start":4553.518,"end":4569.718,"text":"議注金費有9700多萬,在113年度也準備議注2億4500萬,讓更多的一些不利處境的學生或中低家庭的孩子們都可以去做領用。」我想這個部分從這邊可以真正達到就是說"},{"start":4571.02,"end":4587.922,"text":"讓女性朋友在領取生理用品上可以得到實惠,讓不利處境的孩子們以及這個中低家庭的一個婦女朋友們都可以得到一些獲益的實惠,那未來也可能可以在廣大的一些推廣達到這樣的一個目的,以上的一個補充。"},{"start":4589.683,"end":4615.419,"text":"部長謝謝你也是身為女性大家說女性何苦為難女性這個是照顧一下女性特別是這個版本大概我們本院有8個委員提案我們也希望這個稅損也不多也希望多多支持一下首先我們請提案人就是民眾黨黃珊珊黃委員先發言然後接著再請國昭委謝謝"},{"start":4617.687,"end":4638.835,"text":"謝謝趙偉。我想謝謝各位同仁還有部長。剛剛當然部長說我們當然知道說營業稅它有很高的這些相關的積增的必要跟稅可能會有稅損可是這個稅損就像剛剛趙偉說的大概不會太多那我們的提案內容很清楚其實這是不是單單一個營業稅的問題而是性別平權的概念"},{"start":4639.715,"end":4662.896,"text":"這個案子其實是我在台北市擔任副市長的時候我們在台北市優先先在國中試辦女性生理用品提供給國中女生那後來擴展到國小的五六年級那中央看到也往這個方向走也提供給學校幾乎其實只要是學生都有需要的話大家都可以取得免稅免費的生理用品其實免費才是重點"},{"start":4663.897,"end":4690.02,"text":"但是現在沒有辦法一下子到免費所以我們只能退而求其次先請先申請免稅那免稅的部分目前是愛爾蘭、英國加拿大、肯亞肯亞是一個很特別的國家他很早就免稅美國部分的州那現在德國也降低他的加值稅那蘇格蘭除了生理用品免稅以外還是全境免費提供生理用品其實一個性別平權的國家我們的夢想是在臺灣的公廁"},{"start":4691.841,"end":4707.934,"text":"他將來的生理用品應該是跟衛生紙一樣普遍讓所有的女性不需要放在包包裡面非常緊張隨時去找甚至很害羞的去超商買的時候還要弄個牛皮紙在包著這個是對女性的一個我覺得是基本的尊重"},{"start":4709.275,"end":4736.198,"text":"就像剛剛趙偉說的其實這個稅損不是很多但是它是代表一個先進國家的人權指標尤其是性別平權在台灣我們既然中央政府都這麼重視那這個稅基其實並不是非常大但是它可以代表台灣是一個對於性別平權尤其是性別貧窮那我們沒有辦法一步到位到全部免費所以我們希望說至少在免稅先跨出一大步"},{"start":4736.678,"end":4762.244,"text":"那未來的目標當然是希望台灣所有的公廁裡面的衛生棉是隨手可得而不會造成說民眾其實以前看到衛生紙會帶回家可是你現在看到衛生紙沒有人帶回家我們也希望將來的衛生棉也一樣放在洗手間不會有人把它拿回家它會變成台灣的公民裡面大家認為說這是一個必要的東西第二個在性別教育的部分我們希望"},{"start":4762.884,"end":4788.72,"text":"我們那時候在國中推廣就是讓很多小男生他瞭解女性的辛苦所以他們會去幫妹妹領衛生棉這個是我們希望在學校推廣的教育所以我希望這個案子既然這麼多委員我希望能夠順利的在這一次的修法裡面能夠掛進去執行面我相信財政部的能力一定能夠好好的來執行至於怎麼執行我們也相信我們"},{"start":4789.841,"end":4813.127,"text":"政府跟基層單位應該都會想出辦法,但是我覺得這是一個進步國家的指標,而且這麼多委員一起提案,我們希望它能夠順利在2024年成為台灣進步國家的指標之一。謝謝。好,謝謝黃珊珊、黃委員為女性的大力爭取。接著請郭國文、郭昭瑋"},{"start":4815.001,"end":4842.169,"text":"謝謝,謝謝召委我剛才聽那個黃三威委員所這個分享他在台北市政府裡頭的一些行政經驗跟成果我確實覺得就如同剛剛那個部長所提的好像看起來是行政作為跟行政手段的部分比較容易執行這個部分在立法的部分他一直提到強調的部分是說他到底是不是能夠直接在售價當中真正達到那個減免的效果或商家會用其他的方式來抬高那個價格反而呢"},{"start":4842.509,"end":4866.387,"text":"沒有辦法反映到這一個真正消費者的這一個身上反而是讓商家有更多受益的一個空間這是第一個第二個我是覺得剛剛聽黃珊珊黃委員提的時候我倒是覺得財政部的態度可以稍微積極一點如果你假設你在修法上有他的困難的話那你財政部的高度你還有一些行政作為可以去進行嘛譬如講他剛剛提到說如果假設這一個"},{"start":4868.348,"end":4890.871,"text":"為生免可以到很重要的通路上都隨時可以拿到的。」我剛剛直接在他在談論的過程當中我想到說臺灣最多通路會用到的地方大概就是連鎖的便利商店、全家、7-11你是不是能夠鼓勵鼓勵這幾個主要的通路的人由財政部的搞賭的代表說我如果立法上真的沒有辦法通過的話但是我財政部部長"},{"start":4891.291,"end":4892.012,"text":"委員吳宗憲等18人分別擬具"},{"start":4912.154,"end":4934.259,"text":"這一個水平跟素養都要提升的情況底下我也相信不會把那些衛生紙或衛生棉需要的用品帶回去我相信這一個素養會慢慢提升我是說如果部長你這個法令上有他的困難之處的話你在表述過程當中或許你可以展現一個更積極的一個行政的所作為或所斷的表述"},{"start":4935.099,"end":4958.001,"text":"將會更彰顯說我們對這個議題的重要性那你如果說法令上的困難度我當然會尊重你在專業上的評估講白一點是我會尊重你專業上的評估第一個你剛剛說確實這個是不是真的反映到消費者身上這一點我覺得你講的不是沒有道理你其實你這個論點其實在報章上已經披露過了導致第二個部分你那基深成本的部分溯源到"},{"start":4959.102,"end":4968.773,"text":"棉花的階段。」這個部分你剛剛在說明的時候並沒有說得很清楚,能不能請部長這個部分再補充說明一下。我簡單說明一下,就是說因為我..."},{"start":4984.011,"end":4998.502,"text":"委員這邊的建議是說把點增加的更多讓就增加更多的點讓我們女性朋友可以直接去領用我想這個部分我想當第一個就我女性來說我當然覺得這樣是一個非常方便非常好"},{"start":4998.942,"end":5021.755,"text":"因為我們也都經歷過那樣的一個時間嘛那這個部分當然主要當然不是因為財政部主權那我講我可以我會去跟結合其他的部分我們一起來做好嗎那這樣好不好那我覺得是不是看有我們有個提案或是什麼我們來結合其他部會一起來做一起來推動這樣的一個事情好不好好是是是不好意思黃委員"},{"start":5026.145,"end":5030.831,"text":"黃珊珊會不會直接優惠到消費者?"},{"start":5042.145,"end":5062.121,"text":"也就是說我們這個法修完之後因為都在通路裡面賣它一定會減5%的那張偉講得更好就是這些大的他們都有我們都會去7-11上廁所嘛它裡面提供免費的那當然就是社會公益的部分就我剛剛講我們希望將來所有的女性在台灣的任何場地"},{"start":5062.561,"end":5084.924,"text":"他都可以很自在的得到一個臨時的免費的生理用品這樣對他來說是一個很方便但是如果可能的話就當講到通路這些通路絕對可以讓我們消費者直接受益啦所以這個也是部長不用擔心的事那食物的要不要補充不用了那個雞蒸的食物要說好請說請說明"},{"start":5087.506,"end":5110.288,"text":"跟委員報告,我們的營業稅,因為像,其實我覺得委員這樣的體驗都是站在女性的角度,所以真的我都會想說我如果晚一點出生能受惠於這些措施該多好,但我們那個時代確實是沒有啦。那我們也有去研究過世界各國,那有一些國家,部分國家有給他免稅或減稅,但是大部分的國家我們收集到的是沒有啦。"},{"start":5110.848,"end":5121.38,"text":"一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、一、二、三、四、五、十、"},{"start":5129.108,"end":5129.628,"text":"第八條條文修第八條條文修"},{"start":5151.335,"end":5158.147,"text":"是其他的原因,因為我們有時候真的不是那麼容易,因為差太少了那個有時候不太具有辨識度這樣,以上補充一下"},{"start":5170.351,"end":5189.855,"text":"因為他是這樣我們是對最終譬如說我舉個例子我們對生理用品免稅對不對那免稅的時候他是到最後他從棉花我們不是對棉花免稅他可能棉花不織布什麼之類的跟他講溯源的意思是說到底他有沒有降價他會跟你講我是棉花漲價了我是不織布漲價了不是你很難"},{"start":5193.256,"end":5220.825,"text":"對!對!對!我要反映的是說只差五塊錢那他跟你說我棉花長了兩塊我不知不長了一塊我要一層一層去追因為他的原物料很多那我一層一層去追追到最後才知道你沒有把五塊錢回饋原來你什麼成本都沒增加部長的意思是說我要追那個成本到底是成本漲價還是還是說故意把利潤把那個減稅率變成利潤這部分的成本真的很高因為主要是因為"},{"start":5221.645,"end":5240.115,"text":"的鑑別度太低了,它只有5%。一般我很難鑑別啦。那一般的國家有20%或15%。你如果沒有降個15%、20%,一下子消費者就發現了。這是我們為什麼基金上比較困難的原因啦。」好,謝謝。請吳麗華、吳委員。謝謝主席。大概"},{"start":5245.649,"end":5254.535,"text":"提這個修法有幾個很重要的理由啦。第一個我覺得我們是在2007年就跟"},{"start":5255.982,"end":5275.835,"text":"聯合國有一個消除對婦女一切歧視的公約有去締約所以我們也很努力國內也很努力在立法所以終於在2011年這個消除對婦女一切歧視形式的施行法三讀通過"},{"start":5277.296,"end":5297.723,"text":"那你看又走了好多年像我進來立法院前幾年我們就一直在推希望教育部還有一些政府機關能夠提供免費的衛生棉去消除所謂的月經貧窮那我要說的是其實當年那個施行法通過他是要求兩個"},{"start":5298.863,"end":5314.709,"text":"一個就是希望各級機關政府要去做立法的修改跟行政措施所以其實這十年我們走得非常的緩慢我是覺得說那我們去檢視我們所有的法"},{"start":5315.609,"end":5330.22,"text":"那能夠去調整的其實我覺得很多的立法委員是基於這個原因去挑然後去做修那而且這個CEDAW他是每四年他就要做一次審查我覺得我們第一個"},{"start":5330.981,"end":5331.942,"text":"財政委員會財政委員會財政委員會"},{"start":5347.677,"end":5375.844,"text":"可是卻沒有辦法顯現在我們的這個法案的進步裡面我覺得這個是蠻可惜的啦然後在剛剛因為一直提到那個激增人力的問題其實我們之前也有開記者會啊對於那些營業稅小小的其實大可以去減少我們激增人力的一個辛苦我覺得有些小的其實沒有必要抓不是抓那個要叫什麼"},{"start":5376.884,"end":5378.866,"text":"財政委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲、委員吳宗憲"},{"start":5406.209,"end":5430.221,"text":"3.8億其實不多但是它是一個具有代表性的意義行政院都有通過這個性別平等的政策綱裡面提到消除對婦女一切形式的歧視但是其實你說從上一屆就開始談到這一屆那我認為就是說你不要去想說稅收少了3.8億或是說我們要用很多的人去稽查"},{"start":5431.483,"end":5455.917,"text":"是財政部,你如果說吼,這個免徵之後,你只要,真的你只要跟各個重要的同路商講吼,他們不會去,真的不會去騙你,他們如果敢騙你吼,你的手段更多啦,真的啦,你的手段是更多啦,所以我覺得說第一個,你先不要覺得說他們會去騙你吼,然後你們要花很多人力去,去查,吼,你要相信說這個是好的政策,那這些"},{"start":5457.097,"end":5486.429,"text":"這些也都算在這些廠商的ESG的那一個政策的精神裡面所以我是覺得說這個東西去推動對我們賴清德總統也都是有加分的啦所以我是希望說財政部就是不要再堅持了就是讓這個案子能夠按照這個因為這個是不分男女不分黨派不分各黨都是有這個共識我是認為說盡量朝大家"},{"start":5486.989,"end":5501.316,"text":"在黨派有共識的地方來做修法,好不好?好,謝謝李坤澄、李委員也是為女性同胞大力爭取那因為王委員剛剛有先舉手要離讓賴委員先還是"},{"start":5505.049,"end":5529.786,"text":"女性優先今天這個女性的議題我們請賴慧媛、賴委員謝謝主席、謝謝黃委員我想這個針對的我也是呼籲昆城委員跟珊珊委員還有國務委員、立法委員的一個建議事實上一個先進的國家的一個指標這個其實公民生活的一個必需品尤其是女性"},{"start":5531.187,"end":5557.039,"text":"尤其稅收只是少收了3.8億人力的稽查我想財政部是可以克服的那如果就是說財政部我覺得就是我們這麼多的一個委員的一個主張這個請財政部好好的考慮好好的考慮其實你們剛才講的這一些問題基本上都是可以克服的那本席也支持大家的一個前提的一個主張謝謝"},{"start":5562.09,"end":5582.938,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝我們賴會員、賴委員也是大力為女性同胞爭取所以今天聽起來大概就是每個委員都是站在比較支持的立場那我們再來請王世堅、王委員王世堅、王委員"},{"start":5589.429,"end":5615.6,"text":"謝謝主席我兩點跟大家的看法都一樣第一點就是說財政部一直說減免了這3.8億沒有辦法實質回饋到這個消費者的手上那這一點其實蠻矛盾的啦因為我們行政院設有物價聯合稽查小組這也不需要財政部再怎麼多派人去查"},{"start":5616.502,"end":5637.763,"text":"光是這個任務交給行政院聯合稽查小組他們都可以做得很徹底查得很徹底所以我相信這一筆稅金的減免回饋到售價上面這一點是沒有問題的這一點應該是沒有問題的那第二點"},{"start":5640.078,"end":5668.459,"text":"減免生理用品稅這是國際上先進國家的趨勢你看美國、英國、德國、澳洲絕大多數先進國家他們早就這麼做了即便連比較保守的穆斯林國家像非洲國家、像肯尼亞那像其他像印尼、印度這些比較保守的穆斯林國家他們也都逐漸接受了"},{"start":5669.457,"end":5684.45,"text":"所以我們台灣在國際的這個風間浪頭我們是處在進步社會的一環那我們更是應當應當現在就做所以我希望財政部不要"},{"start":5684.97,"end":5689.214,"text":"及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修 及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修"},{"start":5707.028,"end":5718.433,"text":"這次我們不是搶走十字架,我們只是在十字架上面把一些污點塗掉而已,所以這次就要拜託你了,這件事情我們三黨一致的共識,謝謝。"},{"start":5725.936,"end":5741.691,"text":"所有的委員非常感謝都是站在女性的立場然後大力來支持因為稅損也只有一年打大概不到3.8億那是不是徵求各位委員來主席我不是寫完喔"},{"start":5751.994,"end":5777.919,"text":"還在寫嗎?還在寫嗎?我想說那個財政部如果真的是要對這些部分還有意見的話至少要讓委員感受到你們的誠意嘛所以我提一個案子那現在在寫說你要如何透過你現在的財務部的高位去聯合經濟部其他部會我講白一點啦剛剛大家引用到經濟部是解決問題但是你們會幫公司製造問題啦"},{"start":5779.139,"end":5803.04,"text":"如果他們不寵的話他們會很多考慮啦當然這樣講是不是非常好但是事實上他們會很尊重你的意思啦你很少出面嘛你要求做這個公益事件其實不是壞事是好事而不是只有黨因為這是對的事情不能只有黨那你如果說一直講說那個激增成本太高那個我大概聽得出來財政部長意義上的他沒有達到實質的效果啦"},{"start":5803.2,"end":5823.189,"text":"即是說你這通過看起來是宣誓性但沒有達到實質的效果你就乾脆這個就不一定要修他的態度是這樣子可是我們不是在討論一個法的問題我們是討論一個人權的一個象徵的問題所以說你還要有一個相對的作為出來其實台北市政府會做出一些成績主要還是在行政權的範圍啊"},{"start":5824.289,"end":5841.877,"text":"那你站在行政單位你也可以做出一個行政權那達到實質的效果遠遠比法條上你如果沒有辦法落實你通過法條你沒有辦法落實一樣沒有那個效果講白一點真正實質的效果是在行政作為的部分所以說我今天提的這個案能不能請召委要不要待會讓大家討論一下"},{"start":5844.958,"end":5865.032,"text":"那這樣子我們對於這個第八條的部分大概討論已經充分了大概每個委員的發言都是贊成為女性同胞大力來爭取包括國民黨包括民進黨包括民眾黨都觀念都是一致的所以"},{"start":5867.214,"end":5892.954,"text":"這裡有一個臨時提案是建請財政部會商相關部會擴大提供免費生理用品之範圍及管道以落實女性權益之保障包括我還有包括與會的所有委員大家都簽名了那簽名這個就是代表一個督促的力量那對於今天的這個"},{"start":5895.748,"end":5912.234,"text":"反案的推動這個條文的修正草案的推動也不影響所以如果各位沒有意見的話所以沒有意見的話我們就要處理了來部長再說明一下"},{"start":5914.588,"end":5934.586,"text":"我想這裡是不是第一個因為有關提供免費生理用品當然就是照顧女性以及這個平權那是不是可以就是由近景財政部協調他們的這些部會可以嗎協調相關部會他們來去做擴大這樣的一個提供"},{"start":5938.229,"end":5942.833,"text":"不,沒關係,這個是見情而已啦,內容不要修正,見情你們自己在斟酌嘛。尊重委員的提案。"},{"start":5951.653,"end":5978.672,"text":"那我們這個臨時這樣就確定照案通過提案人有郭文文、羅明才、賴慧玟吳立華、王世堅、李坤成、黃珊珊委員等還有陸續還有委員要簽的也可以簽好那我們今天對於第八條的部分如果沒有意見我們就全案就是併案保留送院會朝野的協商有沒有意見"},{"start":5985.458,"end":5998.961,"text":"好 沒有問題啊 那就是確定全案保留送院會朝野協商好 這樣就過了好 確定保留送院會啊 保留送全案保留"},{"start":6013.762,"end":6034.384,"text":"保留的原因來請黃聲琛、黃委員報告招委因為我們好像現場委員沒有人反對啊所以到底是為什麼要保留的是不是要確定一個版本這樣大家比較清楚因為現在版本很多那如果要保留的話我們到時候可能對的版本是哪一個可能要比較清楚一點"},{"start":6035.487,"end":6039.569,"text":"全案保留,送院會朝野協商。這段時間也讓財政部多做一點事情,等於是幫忙財政部在各部會協調的時候它有一個動力存在。"},{"start":6077.374,"end":6087.639,"text":"協商完成,請議事人宣讀協商結論。宣讀協商結論。第六條之一,照行政院提案通過。"},{"start":6090.063,"end":6104.477,"text":"第32條之一照行政院提案通過第48條之二照行政院提案通過第50條照行政院提案通過委員張宏祿等20人擬具《加值型及非加值型營業稅法》第6條之一第8條條文修正草案"},{"start":6105.964,"end":6109.166,"text":"法等第八條條文修正草案案均保留送院會協商臨時提案一案。照案通過。宣傳完畢請問各位委員對於協商結論有無異議"},{"start":6135.219,"end":6162.726,"text":"沒有異議。」好,我們做如下決議本日會議做如下決議加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案等10案做如下宣告一、行政院函請審議加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案案。委員"},{"start":6163.513,"end":6185.438,"text":"林楚英等18人擬具《加值型及非加值型營業稅法》第32條之一及第48條之二條文修正草案二案。審查完略並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由本席補充說明"},{"start":6195.841,"end":6215.629,"text":"委員對以上之決議有異議、沒有異議通過。二、委員張宏祿等22人擬具加值型及非加值型營業稅法第六條之一及第八條條文修正草案案即台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":6217.89,"end":6246.262,"text":"委員黃捷等17人、委員吳宗憲等18人、委員林思敏等27人、委員洪孟楷等18人、委員郭玉琴等18人及委員陳金輝等17人分別擬具《加值型及非加值型營業稅法第八條條文修正草案》等7案。8案"},{"start":6252.853,"end":6276.548,"text":"第八條是7案審查完略並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前需交由黨團協商院會討論時由本席補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議沒有異議通過休息禮拜三繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":6282.185,"end":6288.589,"text":"負責負責負責負責負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負"}]}},{"id":"154068","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154068","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b9290582c338cc5017fafafc43ba26a35053d3b073ba011b328941388ba911f71655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:28:09 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那我想問你我剛剛講那句話出自哪裡首戰及決戰美軍未到戰事已定讓美軍未到戰事已定我告訴你好了"},{"start":43.334,"end":66.212,"text":"是這個國防院2018年中共政軍發展評估報告不過他是提到中國強調啊對啊中國強調首戰即決戰啊讓美軍未到戰事一定沒錯吧所以他講的是中國的看法當然我後面要告訴你嘛就是中國強調關鍵這件事嘛事實上這句話的語意是說中共解放軍的戰略指導不是預測戰事結果嘛對不對"},{"start":69.329,"end":92.922,"text":"他們是希望戰事一開的時候就結合什麼滲透啦這個我講嘛,他的這句話我知道你後面很多具體作為你講四個小時也講不完啦是那我要講說這句話整體是講中共解放軍的戰略指導不是預測戰事結果嘛對不對呃,不,這是他的應該是他的主觀期待吧是"},{"start":94.269,"end":105.484,"text":"你跟我講的一模一樣啊不是嗎我直接跟你講啦這句話也整體意義是說明中共解放軍是戰略指導並非預設戰事結果你知道這句話出自哪裡嗎這句話也出自國防院的新聞稿啊"},{"start":111.041,"end":125.094,"text":"所以我要跟部長講一件事情我想請問你國防院把中國強調首戰及決戰讓美軍衛到戰事儀我們先來解釋中共的戰略講定就是希望美軍還沒到就把戰爭結束了對不對"},{"start":127.87,"end":149.488,"text":"我還是說對這中國的一個主觀上面的．對中國主觀嘛國防院也是這麼講嘛還希望速戰速決的這樣的狀態嘛對啊所以我要講一件什麼事那我想請問你齁國防院把中國強調首戰即決戰讓美軍未到戰事已定這句話放進我們的政軍評估報告是不是投降主義我想"},{"start":154.426,"end":164.674,"text":"如果你講的是賴總統的演說的話我只講國防院我還沒講到賴總統演說我講國防院而已國防院強調的就是說我們不能讓首戰及決戰就發生嗎"},{"start":168.21,"end":190.354,"text":"誰想要它發聲啊?台灣沒有人想要發聲,我只問你嘛,國防院把這句話放進去是不是投降主義嘛?如果說我們讓首戰局決戰變成真的話,那就是一種投降主義。我只問你,他把它放進去,把這個戰略想定,中共戰略想定揭露,讓我們有所防範,是不是投降主義嘛?"},{"start":191.226,"end":201.19,"text":"那我們就不能接受嗎?我們如果接受就是投降主義啊。博長,我跟你講過我不能接受,我只問你可不可以放進評估報告嘛。跟委員報告,我們沒有辦法接受首戰局決戰,如果我們接受首戰局決戰就是投降主義。可不可以放進評估報告?國防院的啊。"},{"start":214.722,"end":236.454,"text":"國防院評估的報告而且是蔡英文政府國防院2018年喔但是他不是在講國防他是不是投降主義我們沒有辦法接受首戰局決戰他講的是中國的主要期待我跟你講過你在跟我鬼打架沒有人能接受啊我要跟你講啦光這個問題你迴避這麼久原因很簡單因為你也不認為國防院放進去是一個投降主義嘛"},{"start":236.834,"end":250.127,"text":"他是分析戰略假定嘛戰略想定我們要擊破中共的首戰即決戰的這個想法嘛不是嗎?你不把中共的首戰即決戰想進去你怎麼去想出方式呢?"},{"start":251.344,"end":275.693,"text":"我今天這四分鐘馬上就結束了你光第一個問題你就問四分鐘我只想最後一個結論馬總統引述的就是2018的國防院的報告跟投降主義沒有關係我們都要急迫這個戰略想定關鍵是政府要有能力有信心急迫中共首戰即決戰的戰略想定沒錯吧是 這我們努力的目標請您努力"},{"start":276.673,"end":277.234,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員是李坤誠委員"}]}},{"id":"154067","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154067","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b92941f472861ec4758afafc43ba26a3505206422987cb41a412b7308b733e54c075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:55:12 - 12:02:03","影片長度":"00:06:51","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-17","start_time":"2024-06-17T11:55:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T12:02:03+08:00","duration":411,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":810,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時55分）有請顧部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長您好。昨天您有陪同賴總統一起去參加陸官的百年校慶，看到精神抖擻、步伐整齊劃一的三軍官校學生踢正步，您有受到感動嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：他們的士氣都相當的高昂。"],["翁委員曉玲：我也很深受感動。賴清德總統昨天說了一句話，我覺得這個部分可能需要請部長再來回應。賴總統說中華民國在哪裡，黃埔精神就在哪裡。我想請問部長，我們中華民國在哪裡？"],["顧部長立雄：我想中華民國現在在臺澎金馬已經落地生根。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是什麼意思？"],["顧部長立雄：我們的意思就是說，黃埔在創建的時候並沒有中華人民共和國，黃埔創建的時候是中華民國，後來隨著不同的時期，南京、成都然後一直到鳳山，都是隨著中華民國，所以中華民國在哪裡，黃埔精神就在哪裡。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為部長您是法律人，所以我們就直接切到法律的角度來談中華民國在哪裡的問題，我想請問部長，從憲法跟法律上的角度來看，您認為中華民國在哪裡？"],["顧部長立雄：中華民國現在有效的統治範圍，就是我剛剛講的就在臺澎金馬。"],["翁委員曉玲：是有效的治權範圍，對不對？那我們來看下一張地圖，請問部長您承認這張地圖嗎？您認為這是中華民國的地圖嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我認為我們中華民國現在有效的統治範圍就是臺澎金馬。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在講的是領土的範圍，主權包含政府、領土、人民，您承不承認這是我們中華民國的地圖？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能跟委員說，如果要照您這樣講的話，那這個地方所畫的外蒙古也是在……"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在是從中華民國的角度、從歷史、政治上的角度來看這張地圖，您承不承認？您作為中華民國的國防部長，您認為這是我們中華民國的地圖嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能夠回答說，我們現在中華民國有效統治的地方。"],["翁委員曉玲：你還談的是治權嘛！所以主權的部分您要迴避。"],["顧部長立雄：我……"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我們來看下一頁，我們就從憲法上面來談談吧！其實憲法裡面有講，為因應國家統一前的需要，因此進行憲法修正，什麼叫做國家統一？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這一個……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們要跟誰統一？"],["顧部長立雄：關於國家統一的這一個部分，至少就我的理解，我們現在並沒有在採取反攻大陸的政策。"],["翁委員曉玲：是您不採取反攻大陸政策，還是我們全中華民國的國民不採取反攻大陸的政策？"],["顧部長立雄：至少就我的理解，我們國防部在……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以是部長您個人自己的意見。憲法第十一條的規定非常清楚，中華民國現在涵蓋自由地區與大陸地區。在兩岸人民關係條例裡面也講得很清楚，兩岸地區是指臺灣地區與大陸地區，請注意「大陸地區」的規定是指臺灣地區以外的中華民國領土。從憲法跟法律的角度來看，非常清楚，大陸地區就是中華民國的領土，請您作為國防部部長，不要忘記這麼重要的法律意涵。"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是請委員也看一下，我們現在就是臺灣、澎湖、金門、馬祖其政府統治權所在之其他地區，臺灣地區就是指中華民國現在統治權有效所及的地區。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，這是治權，我現在跟您講的是主權和領土的部分。請看下一頁，中華民國關於領土的規定，憲法增修條文裡面都講得非常清楚，領土就是依照我們的固有疆域，非經國民大會的決議，不可以變更。在後來的憲法增修條文裡面有講，如果我們要變更領土，必須要由立法院提起領土變更案，並且要經過臺灣地區全國人民的公投複決，我希望部長不要忘記這件事情，在我們沒有進行憲法公投複決之前，中華民國的領土範圍就是我們剛剛所講的，在憲法及兩岸人民關係條例裡面所指的領土範圍。","賴總統說中華人民共和國跟中華民國互不相隸屬，這代表賴清德總統承認中華人民共和國是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，中華人民共和國現在事實的存在，這是毋庸置疑的事實。"],["翁委員曉玲：我不管其他國家怎麼承認、怎麼去看中華人民共和國，從中華民國的角度來講，賴總統是不是承認中華人民共和國？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，您看您這張圖，蒙古的地區又把它畫出去了，那……"],["翁委員曉玲：我的重點在於臺灣，中華人民共和國的領土有沒有包含臺灣？"],["顧部長立雄：那可能……"],["翁委員曉玲：如果你們承認中華人民共和國的話，中華人民共和國的領土範圍包含臺灣，我必須說賴清德總統這樣的發言，他作為中華民國總統，他矮化臺灣，拋棄中華民國的領土，而且給中華人民共和國有個合理化收復臺灣的說法，本席以為賴清德總統他才是中華民國的賣國賊。賴清德總統說中華民國的前途是由2,300萬人民共同決定，不要忘記現在2,300萬人決定的中華民國領土是在哪裡？我們有經過憲法公投嗎？在沒有經過任何憲法公投之前，請不要說承認中華人民共和國，承認中華人民共和國基本上對中華民國就是一個很大的傷害，以上。"],["顧部長立雄：國防部的立場就是守土有責，我們捍衛的就是中華民國統治權所及的地區，我們寸土不讓。"],["主席：謝謝部長。今天相關事情都處理完了，不過即使不承認，去中華人民共和國的時候好像還是要過他們的海關。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。有關機密報告部分，報告已完成，委員並沒有秘密詢答，相關報告都已經報委員會了。","另外，今天會議有林憶君委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.9040937500000001,"end":3.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.69284375,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.274093750000002,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.20221875,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.85346875,"end":31.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.367843750000002,"end":47.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.360968750000005,"end":50.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.12409375,"end":53.204093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.507843750000006,"end":57.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.890968750000006,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.35909375000001,"end":65.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.40034375,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.59659375000001,"end":92.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.81596875000001,"end":80.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.65346875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.31909375000001,"end":110.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.23721875000001,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.19409375000001,"end":118.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.28659375000001,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.55971875,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.61034375000001,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.59221875,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.13909375,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.96534375000002,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.52596875,"end":154.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.83159375000002,"end":171.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.02534375000002,"end":172.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.14721875,"end":183.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.95159375,"end":189.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.18284375000002,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.43159375000002,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.70846875,"end":237.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.96159375000002,"end":228.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.12596875000003,"end":230.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.04034375,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.01909375000002,"end":243.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.57096875000002,"end":244.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.11909375000002,"end":290.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.88846875,"end":291.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.37346875000003,"end":292.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.79096875,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.81471875,"end":311.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.56034375,"end":322.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.00159375000004,"end":328.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.96284375000005,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.67096875000004,"end":334.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.48096875000005,"end":355.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.89096875,"end":356.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.80221875,"end":357.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.74721875,"end":360.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.78096875,"end":358.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.95346875,"end":361.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.30784375,"end":364.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.97409375,"end":365.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.46346875,"end":366.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.50534375,"end":384.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.41784375000003,"end":394.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.51784375,"end":411.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.65284375000005,"end":395.09159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.926,"end":27.695,"text":"好,有請顧部長來,部長請事由翁委員好事由部長,您好昨天您有陪同賴總統一起去參加入關的百年校慶您看到這個精神抖擻畫著這個步伐整齊畫一的三軍官校學生踢正步您有受到感動嗎?"},{"start":28.891,"end":57.791,"text":"所以我想他們的士氣都相當的高啊。是是是,OK。好,我也很深受感動。好,那賴金德總統昨天有說了一句話。那我覺得這個部分可能需要再請部長再來回應一下。賴總統說中華民國在哪裡?黃埔精神就在哪裡?我想請問部長,我們中華民國在哪裡?我想中華民國現在在台澎金馬已經落地生根。"},{"start":59.019,"end":65.348,"text":"這是什麼意思我們的意思就是說黃埔在創建的時候並沒有中華人民共和國"},{"start":67.388,"end":92.48,"text":"黃埔創建的時候是中華民國後來隨著不斷的時期南京、成都然後一直到鳳山都是隨著中華民國所以中華民國在哪裡黃埔精神就在哪裡因為部長您是法律人所以我不想我們就直接切到法律的角度裡面來談中華民國在哪裡的這個問題我想請問部長從憲法跟法律上的角度來看您認為中華民國在哪裡"},{"start":93.7,"end":94.161,"text":"拜託部長,請問您承認這張地圖嗎?您認為這是中華民國的地圖嗎?"},{"start":111.471,"end":125.088,"text":"我認為我們中華民國現在有效的統治範圍就是颱風金馬是,我現在想的是領土領土的範圍,對不對?主權包含政府、領土、人民我們的領土,您承不承認這是我們中華民國的領土?"},{"start":128.312,"end":144.393,"text":"我只能夠跟委員說如果要照您這樣講的話那外蒙古現在這個地方所畫的外蒙古我現在是從中華民國的角度從歷史政治上的角度來看這張地圖您承不承認您作為中華民國的國防部長您認為這是我們中華民國地圖嗎?"},{"start":145.634,"end":167.243,"text":"我只能夠回答說我們現在中華民國有效統治的地方所以您還談的是治權嘛所以主權的部分您要迴避接下來我們來談一下下一頁我們就從憲法上面來談談吧什麼叫做我們憲法前面裡面有講為因應國家統一前的需要然後做了這個憲法的修正什麼叫做國家統一我想這一個我們要跟誰統一"},{"start":174.963,"end":183.618,"text":"這個國家統一的這個部分在我們現在至少就我的理解我們現在並沒有再採取反攻大陸的政策"},{"start":184.371,"end":204.508,"text":"是您不採取反共大陸政策還是我們全中華民國的國民不採取反共大陸的政策?至少就我的理解是,所以是您部長個人自己的意見來,在我們的憲法第11條裡面非常清楚中華民國現在涵蓋自由地區與大陸地區接下來下一頁那在兩岸人民關係條例裡面也講得很清楚"},{"start":205.568,"end":226.775,"text":"我們的兩岸地區是指的兩岸地區與大陸地區請注意大陸地區的規定指台灣地區以外的中華民國領土從憲法跟法律的角度裡面非常清楚大陸地區就是中華民國的領土請您作為國防部部長不要忘記這麼重要的法律的意涵"},{"start":229.51,"end":239.622,"text":"接下來我想請問一下我們現在就是台灣澎湖基本馬祖基政府統治權所在之其他地區是所以這是治權我現在跟你講的是主權跟領土的部分來接下來請下一頁"},{"start":246.475,"end":274.003,"text":"這是我們中華民國的領土的規定在我們的憲法憲法徵修條文裡面都講得非常清楚領土就是依照我們的固有疆域非經國民大會的決議是不可以變更在後來憲法徵修條文裡面有講如果我們要變更領土必須要由立法院提起領土變更案那麼並且要進行全國人民的在台灣地區自由地區全國人民的這個公投賦決"},{"start":275.463,"end":302.614,"text":"我希望部長不要忘記這件事情在我們沒有進行憲法公投覆決之前中華民國的領土範圍就是我們剛剛所講的在憲法還有兩岸人民政修條例裡面所指的領土範圍接下來下一頁賴總統說中華人民共和國跟中華民國互不相隸屬代表是說賴清德總統是承認中華人民共和國是嗎?"},{"start":304.194,"end":322.072,"text":"跟委員報告中華人民共和國現在事實的存在這個是無庸置疑的事實我們不管其他國家怎麼承認怎麼去看中華人民共和國從中華民國的角度裡面賴總統是不是說中華人民共和是不是承認中華人民共和國"},{"start":323.352,"end":331.477,"text":"委員報告您看您這張圖那個蒙古的地區又把它畫出去了我重點在於臺灣中華人民共和國的領土有沒有包含臺灣如果你們承認中華人民共和國的話中華人民共和國的領土範圍包含臺灣我必須說"},{"start":340.823,"end":356.302,"text":"賴清德總統的這樣的發言他作為中華民國總統他矮化台灣拋棄中華民國的領土然後而且給中華人民共和國有個合理化收復台灣的這樣的一個說法"},{"start":357.85,"end":383.126,"text":"本席以為賴清德總統他才是中華民國的賣國賊賴清德總統說中華民國的這個前途是由2300萬人民共同決定不要忘記我們現在2300萬人共同決定中華民國領土是在哪裡我們有經過憲法公投嗎在沒有經過任何憲法公投之前請不要說這個"},{"start":391.95,"end":410.646,"text":"國防部的立場就是首途有責我們捍衛的就是中華民國所統治權所及的地區我們寸土不浪謝謝部長我們今天這相關事情都處理完了不過這個不承認去中華人民共和國好像還是要過他們海關"}]}},{"id":"154066","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154066","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b927767da789abfa980afafc43ba26a3505b189cb9423c50d570283c51cbb0d84855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：今天要特別談精良軍備，這是我們不斷要去採購或製造的，這些都應該，但是更要有精良的軍人。我們看2023年10月16號的報導：志願役不適服，兩年超過七千人離開志願役。這樣的一個數字是相當高，我們看112年度國防部預算書，113年度的沒有呈現，113年度的部分請國防部再補充，提書面資料給我，可以嗎？我們看112年的預算書，軍官人數是3萬6,710人；士官8萬9,801人；士兵，這裡指的是志願役，有4萬4,911人。這樣的數字，志願役士兵最重要，當然士官、軍官也要有，他們是第一線的，還是要有，但是這個人數真的很少，像我剛才講的不適服，兩年離開這麼多，指的就是志願役士兵。我們看112年志願役士兵實領薪資，當然今年有調薪、有增加，我們就以這個數字來比較，二等兵三萬五千三百二十元、一等兵三萬七千多、上等兵三萬八千多，這樣的數額真的很低。我們看勞工薪資的現況，基本工資2021年開始不斷提升，這是應該的，當時基本工資月薪是新臺幣二萬四千元，2021年每月勞工平均經常薪資是四萬三千多，部長，2021年時就比志願役士兵高很多，有四萬三千多；2022年基本工資調高為二萬五千兩百五十元，然後勞工平均薪資是四萬四千四百一十七元；2023年基本工資又調高，為二萬六千四百元，勞工平均薪資也調高到四萬五千四百九十六元；2024（今）年，基本工資調高為二萬七千四百七十元，勞工平均薪資為四萬六千一百零五元。我們回頭來看志願役士兵實領薪資，當然這是112年的數字，113年有再調高，所以相關數字後續可以提供嗎？部長，113年的數據可以書面資料提供給我嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：可以。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：講這些，就是讓部長去跟相關部會、主計總處等要求提高志願役的相關薪資，當然也包括士官、軍官，尤其是士兵。剛才前面有委員提到軍人平均幾歲就要離開，如果沒有再晉升，譬如志願役士兵沒有升士官、士官沒有升軍官、少尉沒有升中尉、中尉沒有升上尉、沒有升少校、沒有升中校，他就要退了，所以年齡都還很低，就會涉及到後面的問題，下次再跟你討論後面相關的問題。基本上，精良的軍備，也要有精良的職業軍人，那才是真正的備戰，對不對？不然的話，如何備戰？因為部長你剛上任，回去之後請好好加油。"],["顧部長立雄：就是提高留營率，還有看看哪些部隊的編現比過低，我們要對症下藥，這個部分我們正在積極的研議。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員，部長請回。","報告鄭委員，這是沒有含加給的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，勞工的部分也沒有包括……"],["主席：勞工的加給跟他們不一樣，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答的委員是翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra 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11:48:44","影片長度":"00:10:10","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-17","start_time":"2024-06-17T11:38:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T11:48:44+08:00","duration":610,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":767,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時38分）我們請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["顧部長立雄：是，陳委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，剛才幾位委員有提到DIU規劃的大方向，我們這次就針對這個規劃裡面「先進國防科技小組」的任務及定位是什麼來請教。我為什麼會這樣問呢？其實DIU的機制除了是一個創新的管道之外，也是一個加速的生態圈，我是希望我們來談論這件事情的時候，能夠不是以國防部的角色為主，當然還有配合民間商業的腳步。","這個是我們自己辦公室簡單扼要的從1945年到現在，由美國國防部投資的R＆D跟一般民間投資的R＆D做一個簡單的梳理，因為有三個不同的資料來源，基本上我們可以看到，由國防部主導的創新是逐年在降低，由一般民間的是逐年在增高，基本上60年代之後越來越明顯。我想這樣子的文獻資料，不管是中科院或者是其他國防部整評司應該都有過類似這樣的研究，特別是在這些重要的科技巨頭，從Google或者是一些科技大公司，像是美國的Meta等等，還有現在新興的AI公司、新能源等等，這個趨勢是非常明顯的。所以當我們講國防或是國家安全的創新管道的時候，我希望不是以一個部門為主，而是我們把自己想像成是一個加速器也好，或者是一個催化劑也好，應該會更加妥適。","部長，你覺得國防創新是一個管道嗎？你怎麼看DIU在臺灣的可能性？你把它當成是一個什麼樣的組織？"],["顧部長立雄：是一個引進先進成熟的技術跟產品，然後結合國內的產業，包括中科院的科研能量來加速建構不對稱戰力。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，講得沒錯，其實變成說它不是一個組織，一個由國防部全力在推動技術發展的單位，它就不是中科院，它是在每一個不同的領域上面都能夠有重要的表現。我為什麼特別這樣子談？因為在美國的DIU主要有六個專門解決國家安全的組合，人工智能、自主技術、能源、太空，還有網路安全等六大產業，我們希望它不僅是一個管道，更是一個生態圈。從民間來講，我們剛剛提到的那六大國家安全的範疇，其實需要的部門，從科技界、生技業、網路安全、金融界、法律界、國防、退伍軍人、中階、高階、創業家、技術人員都是在這個裡面，我們是希望它可以在每一個系統都能夠有我們部會來去參與、來去協助、來去加速。比方說，這一些來自科技業、生技業或者是創業家想要進入國防產業的話，首先他們要知道現在各個基地也好，或者是各個部門也好，他們現在在做什麼、他們面臨的問題是什麼、挑戰是什麼，甚至是預算上面的範疇是什麼？所以首先他們必須有一個bootcamp，就像是在2015年的時候，當他們開始，DIU下面還有一個x，它也不知道說這個可以走多久，它是直到最近，應該是從去年開始，這個DIU的主任才正式向國防部部長報告、直接報告，以前都還會有各個分層、科層的管理，所以這是經過8年的試驗之後，有一個更完整的系統出來。","所以我現在把這個生態圈簡單的用圖示的方式講出來，就是說，我們能夠參與的地方，其實從教育開始就能夠參與，教育的意思不是叫他們過來說，我告訴你們，你們該做什麼，而是把他們叫過來，跟大家說，這是現在我們的國防現況，中科院現在大概在研究哪一個範疇，當然是要做完整的背景查核，所以就像顧部長之前講的，揭秘的層級，它的國家安全的背景查核就很重要，因為他們可能沒有軍階，這些民間人士怎麼會有軍階，所以他們的涉密層級跟他們未來涉密的背景查核就很重要。所以國家安全是一環接著一環的，讓他們經過12週以上的啟動營訓練之後，再進入我們簡單的原型跟初級方案，我現在講的是DIU現在已經正在做的事情，裡面當然有美國他們自己軍種各個不同，他們提出他們的問題，提出問題之後，讓這些由科技業、生技業、創業家組成的小組，這個小組可能是由來自4、5個不同背景的人組成的，用增案的方式，用最簡單、最小的方案先讓他們去嘗試，經過嘗試之後，他們可以把他們的原型跟初級方案提供給相關單位，不管是國防部、國安局還是科技部。當然國防的加速器就是由國防部去提供相關的設備跟實驗室資源，讓他們免去最初的資源投入。我們講的不僅僅是已經上市的企業公司，什麼經緯等等，或者是像過去漢翔是由國家做的，我們講的是中小企業就可以開始進入國防產業。在美國DIU從成案到招標的契約週期是90天，今天開始3個月後就已經成案、就已經招標完成，當然我們講的不是大型的軍事採購，不是，不是像潛艇、教練機等等，而是小型的解決方案，因為我們未來遇到的挑戰，不見得是這種大型、需要二、三十年規劃的，而是每一個結構體我們都必須先做好準備，所以從國防的加速到金融的加速，比方天使基金的投入，A輪、B輪之後，當他們成為國防部的合格廠商，同時也可以向國際社會說明，這已經是經過我們國防部或相關官方單位印證出來的產業企業，之後可以提供給我們在國際的友邦，包含烏克蘭，變成是一個有品牌、由國家跟民間企業共同合作的，表示它不是關閉在一個黑盒子裡，它是能夠出去跟其他國家挑戰的。經過這樣的認證，我們還可以進入美國國防產業鏈，所以我們要打造的是一個國家安全創新的生態圈，而這個生態圈我是希望能夠依照它的特色，比方跟生技相關、跟科技相關，所謂科技包含剛剛我們講的無人機，或者水上、水下載具等等，都可以來增設部門。我記得DIU在美國的波士頓有，麻州、D.C.等都有，也就是說，他們會因應這個地區的地理特色，譬如波士頓可能是生技產業為主的cluster，在這個生技產業裡面，他們把辦公室設在那邊，就可以與當地企業，甚至是來自這些重要的高等教育學校出來的學生，就可以直接合作，更不用講麻省理工學院或者哈佛大學的所在地等等，所以我們必須要因應區域，還有這個地區的特色，設置辦公室，並且直接與民間企業開始接洽，所以它必須是跨部會的。我們今天講的國防創新生態，從剛剛講到現在，從國防部、科技部，甚至是跟金融都有相關，部長過去曾經在金融界、法律界，現在是國防部部長，如果可以的話，把這些stakeholder、風險的參與者都叫過來，先來一個完整的會前會，它不應該只是一個司或者一個部門下的一個部門，或是部門下的一個組，它不是一個中央集權式的，它必須是分散式的在各個部門接洽，我再講一次，它是做為一個催化劑。講完這個，想要請教第二個部分，請主席再給我10秒鐘，謝謝。"],["主席：你們的10秒鐘都很長，沒關係。來！"],["陳委員冠廷：關於低軌衛星，上週針對民雄航太園區的規劃，我們提到無人機產業，還有航太的部分，我想請問顧部長，是不是有可能讓航太產業，譬如像低軌衛星的這些產業能夠進駐民雄航太園區由中科院主導的東廠區部分？有沒有可能？"],["顧部長立雄：低軌衛星的部分，應該是國科會……"],["主席：國科會衛星中心吧！"],["顧部長立雄：目前數位部在統籌，是不是？請說明。"],["主席：請摘要回答。"],["盧次長建中：跟委員報告，我是聯六次長。目前我們所引進的低軌衛星，是由數位部在做整體規劃，有關於國防部的所有需求，都已經納入到整個案子裡進行整體規劃，預計今年可以獲得一些相關裝備。"],["主席：你可以獲得低軌道衛星，今年？"],["盧次長建中：我們的裝備。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們希望航太產業能進駐到產業園區，至於西部、西半廠的產業園區，是不是可以由國防部協助，還是由哪個部門來做統合？"],["張院長忠誠：報告委員，目前我們送到國發會審查的規劃，還是以無人機跟航太產業為主……"],["陳委員冠廷：低軌衛星不算航太產業，對不對？"],["張院長忠誠：如果委員有相關建議，未來我們可以跟嘉義縣政府再做溝通、協調。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["張院長忠誠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。我詢問一下，你剛才講低軌道衛星，軍方需要的部分是由數發部主導，我們把需求丟給他們，你說你們今年可以取得裝備？"],["盧次長建中：是初步的裝備驗證。"],["主席：好，驗證，你要加驗證兩個字，不然我覺得你怎麼拿得到裝備，好，謝謝。","接下來進行詢答委員鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.54034375,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.50221875,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.93534375,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.36971875,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.19659375,"end":32.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.49846875,"end":45.711593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.08284375,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.44909375,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.00471875000001,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.96534375,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.47534375000001,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.96284375,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.24096875000001,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.78784375000001,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.30909375000002,"end":137.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.15284375000002,"end":138.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.14846875,"end":141.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.59534375,"end":168.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.38409375,"end":201.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.43409375000002,"end":209.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.63534375,"end":254.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.01221875000002,"end":337.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.79659375,"end":340.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.63596875,"end":345.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.78284375000004,"end":372.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.12471875,"end":385.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.72596875000005,"end":388.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.20659375,"end":396.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.09971875,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.76659375,"end":477.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.31909375000004,"end":498.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.14284375000005,"end":500.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":501.20159375000003,"end":501.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":503.24346875000003,"end":509.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.30596875000003,"end":510.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":510.58409375,"end":532.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":532.84221875,"end":538.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.79534375,"end":535.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.02284375,"end":539.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":539.57534375,"end":539.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.60909375,"end":539.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":539.6259687500001,"end":539.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":539.6597187500001,"end":540.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.03096875,"end":560.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.20909375,"end":563.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.0147187499999,"end":564.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.6303437500001,"end":574.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.3547187500001,"end":577.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.3203437500001,"end":580.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.32846875,"end":587.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.92221875,"end":596.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":587.93909375,"end":590.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.03159375,"end":590.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.35221875,"end":590.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.00971875,"end":598.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.2922187500001,"end":597.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.9878437500001,"end":602.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.8059687500001,"end":610.9734687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.722,"end":5.343,"text":"因為我們請部長來,部長請"},{"start":18.007,"end":45.33,"text":"是陳委員部長好部長剛才幾位委員有提到這個DIU的規劃的大方向那我們這次就針對這一個規劃裡面先進國防科技小組的它的任務還有它的定位是什麼那我為什麼會這樣問其實DIU的機制它是除了是一個創新的管道之外它也是一個加速的一個生態圈那我是希望說我們來談論這件事情的時候能夠不是以國防"},{"start":46.274,"end":49.476,"text":"這是我們自己辦公室簡單二要的把從1945年到現在由他們美國國防部投資的R&D跟一般民間投資的R&D做一個簡單的梳理"},{"start":64.184,"end":85.015,"text":"因為是由三個不同的資料來源基本上我們可以看到這一個由國防部主導的這種創新是逐年在降低那由一般民間的是逐年在增高那基本上60年代之後越來越明顯我想這樣子的文獻資料不管是中科院或者是其他國防部整平時真的應該都有過類似這樣子的研究"},{"start":85.9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camp就像是在2015年的時候當他們開始DIU下一個X他也不知道說這個可以走多久他就直到最近應該是從去年開始這一個DIU的這一個主任才正式向國防部部長報告直接報告以前都還會有各個分層科可能的管理"},{"start":237.458,"end":253.708,"text":"所以這是經過8年的這個試驗之後有一個更完整的系統出來所以我現在把這個聖誕圈簡單的用圖示的方式講出來就是說我們能夠參與的地方其實從教育開始就能夠參與教育的意思不是叫他們過來我告訴你們你們該做什麼"},{"start":255.109,"end":279.201,"text":"而是把他們叫過來跟大家說這是現在我們的國防現況中科院現在大概在研究哪一個範疇大概是要做完整的背景查核所以跟顧部長之前講的接密的層級過他的國家安全的背景查核就很重要了因為他們可能沒有軍階這些民間人是怎麼會有軍階所以他們的涉密層級跟他們未來的涉密的這種背景查核就很重要所以國家安全是一環接著一環的"},{"start":279.821,"end":294.38,"text":"把他們經過12週以上的啟動營經過訓練之後再進入我們的簡單的原型跟初級方案我現在講的是DIU現在已經正在做的事情那裡面當然有美國他們自己軍種各個不同他們提出他們的問題"},{"start":295.821,"end":316.233,"text":"提出問題之後讓這一些由科技業、生技業、創業家組成的小組這個小組是可能來自四、五個不同的背景組成了一個小組用真案的方式用最簡單、最小的方案先讓他們去嘗試那經過嘗試之後他們可以把他們的原型跟初期方案提供給相關單位不管是國防部、國安局還是科技部"},{"start":316.733,"end":344.628,"text":"當然國防的加速器就是由國防部來去提供相關的設備跟實驗室資源讓他們免去最初的資源投入我們講的不僅僅是已經是我們已經成了上市企業公司什麼經緯等等這些或者是我們過去這個漢翔由國家做的我們講的是中小企業就可以開始進入這個國防的產業在美國DIU從成案到這個招標和契約的週期是90天"},{"start":345.871,"end":371.129,"text":"今天開始三個月後就已經成案就已經招標完成當然我們講的不是說大型的這種軍事的採購不是不是像潛艇不是像這種教練機等等不是像小型的解決方案因為我們未來運的挑戰不見得是這種大型需要二三十年規劃的而是每一個結構體我們都必須要先做好準備所以從國防的加速到這個金融的加速比方說天使基金的投入A輪B輪之後"},{"start":372.47,"end":396.369,"text":"當他們成為國防部的這種合格廠商同時也可以成為我們向國際社會說這已經經過我們國防部或者是我們相關的官方單位印證出來的產業的企業那之後提供給我們在國際的友邦包含烏克蘭我們變成是說是一個由品牌由國家跟民間企業共同它表示說它不是關閉在一個黑盒子裡面"},{"start":397.19,"end":421.736,"text":"他是能夠出去跟其他國家挑戰的經過這樣的認證我們還可以進入美國的國防產業鏈所以我們要打造的是一個國家安全創新的生態圈而這個生態圈我是希望是說是能夠依照它的特色比方說是跟生技相關的是跟科技相關的所謂科技你幫我剛剛我們講到無人機啊或者是水上水下載具等等都算來去偵測部門"},{"start":423.738,"end":445.169,"text":"我記得DIAU在美國大概是從波士頓也有在麻州在他們DC都有也就是說他們在因應這一個地理特色比方說在波士頓可能是生技產業為主的cluster在這個生技產業裡面他們辦公室設在那邊就可以與當地的企業甚至是來自這些重大的這些高等教育出來的學生就直接可以合作"},{"start":445.729,"end":467.109,"text":"那如果剛剛就不用講說麻省理工學院或者是哈佛大學所在地等等所以我們必須要因應區域還有這個地區的特色設置辦公室並且直接與這些民間企業開始接洽所以它必須是跨部會的那我們現在講的國防的創新設施從剛剛講到現在從國防部、科技部甚至是跟我們金融都有相關"},{"start":467.91,"end":475.592,"text":"所以我是希望說部長過去不管是在金融、在法律現在是國防部的部長如果能的話"},{"start":476.82,"end":478.841,"text":"我再講一次吹話機最後我"},{"start":503.814,"end":532.357,"text":"講完這個是想要請教第二個部分這是再給我10秒鐘謝謝主席主席關於這個低軌衛星因為我們知道上次應該說上週我們針對這個民雄航太園區的規劃那我們提到無人機產業那還有航太的部分我想請問顧部長是不是有可能讓航太像是低軌衛星的這些產業能夠進駐我們民雄航太園區由中科院主導的東部的這個東廠區的部分有沒有可能"},{"start":533.218,"end":559.908,"text":"我跟委員報告,我是聯六的次長現在目前我們所引進的低軌衛星是由數位部做整體的規劃有關於國防部的所有的需求都已經納入到整個案子裡面來做整體的規劃預計在今年我們可以獲得我們所有的一些相關的裝備"},{"start":565.805,"end":586.853,"text":"所以說如果進駐我們的產業園區如果我們希望航太園區進駐產業園區西部的部分就是西半場的那個產業園區是不是由國防部這邊協助還是由哪一個部門去來做統合現在目標我們送的國防會去審查的目前規劃的還是以無人機跟航太產業為主"},{"start":587.927,"end":610.64,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"}]}},{"id":"154064","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154064","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b9232023d8643b03d7aafafc43ba26a3505b189cb9423c50d57010d55363ceb03ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:33:18 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對不對我跟陳平師我們希望他能夠親自跟我報告相關的東西那現在大家都知道說無人機很重要那當然這一個無人艇也很重要那這個引述這個媒體這個就是報導就是說部長認為說無人艇的發展會以水面無人艇為主那水面下無人載具因為科技難度高"},{"start":76.103,"end":79.032,"text":"還不是目前的工作重點那這個引述有正確嗎?"},{"start":80.813,"end":107.672,"text":"這個是我當時在跟記者參敘的時候提到的這個它的水面下無人載確實有難度是高的但是也是仍然是在我們DIU要屬於要訪尋訪的一個重點項目我們不會我們不會放棄這個水面下的無人載去這一部分OK那現在因為有這個無人機國家隊但是我請問一下部長有這個無人艇的國家隊了嗎"},{"start":110.419,"end":129.395,"text":"我們已經有在從事這個部分的專案看起來進度好像稍微慢一點吧,是不是?這個進度...就相較於無人機的部分啦那我不知道說是不是因為在水面我比較看不到所以我直覺上認為說它的這個進度比這一個無人機的這一個這個進度要稍微慢一點"},{"start":130.676,"end":158.396,"text":"因為無人機有分軍用軍規、軍用商規還有各種偵察型攻擊偵察一體的你也不能夠說它一定比它比較慢因為我們無人機的技術我就是問進度啦我們就是關心進度那當然就是這機敏性的資料無人艇的部分可能不太適宜做過多的揭露"},{"start":159.737,"end":174.618,"text":"我在想到一個議題就在6月9日的時候不是有一個具有中國解放軍背景的人長驅直入從福州寧德港衝到淡水來了然後在海軍跟海巡署都沒有辦法及時攔截的情況之下"},{"start":175.239,"end":196.05,"text":"那我在想到說那如果有部署無人艇的話效果會比較好一點嗎?因為上次海巡所要就是說那個雷達只有這個光點啊這個一閃一滅的也不知道說到底是敵是友啊那如果有這個無人艇在部署在我們的淡水河口的話那效果會好一點嗎?能夠比較早知道說到底是敵是友嗎?"},{"start":197.622,"end":209.491,"text":"您意思是說是我們的無人艇?對對,當然是我們的無人艇啊但我也不知道我們有沒有一個設備啦我只是那個設想就是說如果有這個無人艇在的話因為我知道國外有這個技術啦"},{"start":213.67,"end":231.734,"text":"我只能夠很簡要地回答說應該是有幫助的但事實上要怎麼去做我想我不適合在現在這個階段跟做……我是認為說應該是比如說有這個無人艇的話它可以來分擔一下海軍或是海巡署的"},{"start":231.954,"end":252.159,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":252.159,"end":280.52,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":280.52,"end":304.804,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"}]}},{"id":"154063","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154063","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b9287194afd614bc1f1afafc43ba26a3505b189cb9423c50d57bf4dfb1b539da2a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:22:41 - 11:28:13","影片長度":"00:05:32","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-17","start_time":"2024-06-17T11:22:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T11:28:13+08:00","duration":332,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":641,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時22分）謝謝主席。有請顧部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長好，上週在總質詢，我請教你關於自衛權的行使，臺大教授姜皇池給你自衛權行使的這些概念，我給予高度肯定，第一，它明白宣示我國的武力措施沒有任何侵略性的意圖，一切的武力措施都是以保衛自身存亡為中心。第二個，如果我國已遭受武力攻擊，必須按照聯合國憲章習慣法規則訴諸武力保護自己，這是自衛權的行使，跟第一擊概念不一樣。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["邱委員志偉：第一擊的概念，那時候邱部長的說法是，無人機機件、氣球侵入我國領空，無須對我開槍、開砲，我方就可以加以擊落。如果以國際法的實務來看，其他國家面對敵對勢力，他用無人機或者是氣球進行蓄意的闖入，或者情報蒐集，或者是政治的宣傳等種種目的的時候，其他國家的實踐會是怎麼樣去處理？是不是加以武力排除？"],["顧部長立雄：像上次那個氣球不是飛到美國的上空嗎？美國認為這個具有間諜衛星的性質，侵犯他的領空，他們就派出他們的飛機去把它擊落。"],["邱委員志偉：那我國的實務呢？主要是發生在外島的領空，如果是外島領空這種灰色地帶，他用無人機進行情報蒐集或者是政治宣傳，這個時候以國際法作為基礎，我們用武力去排除，這個應當是符合國際法的相關規定吧？"],["顧部長立雄：因為現在大部分無人機飛越到我們外離島上面都是一些小型的……"],["邱委員志偉：它是零散性的，但是你不能判斷它是不是有政治宣傳或者是情報蒐集的目的嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：它主要的目的我想都是在從事認知作戰，我們是應該要進行反制無人機的部署，這個最近也積極的在進行當中。"],["邱委員志偉：具體的作法是什麼？你可以驅離嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們要用干擾的方式來進行。"],["邱委員志偉：其他國家，像美國就直接擊落了，他認為這個氣球有情報蒐集的企圖，他就直接加以擊落，所以國際法是支持我們用比較強力的手段，用武力來排除無人機的入侵，這個未來實務可能要定得很清楚，而且這種現象可能變成一個常態，我們前方所有的國軍弟兄面對這種灰色地帶的這個狀況該如何處置？"],["顧部長立雄：對於這種突發狀況，我們在突發狀況處置規定裡面有明定應該要加以排除。"],["邱委員志偉：排除的方法有很多，有沒有包括武力？"],["顧部長立雄：是，當然有。"],["邱委員志偉：但是要很明確，是什麼樣的情況之下你要使用武力？"],["顧部長立雄：因為到達我們的領空……"],["邱委員志偉：我認為，姜教授的意見、國際法上的實證，應當是支持用武力去排除無人機入侵、做情報蒐集等等目的。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我覺得應該更高強度，你如果沒有用高強度來因應、來嚇止，他們每天都來怎麼辦？我們防不勝防。"],["顧部長立雄：對，我同意。"],["邱委員志偉：所以一定要拿出強力的作法，這個問題先到此。另外，高教機會不會延產？"],["顧部長立雄：高教機會不會延長？"],["邱委員志偉：延產，現在66架嘛！會不會再延產？因為高教機的性能非常好，平時是做訓練，戰時可以用來作戰。"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在的計畫應該是沒有要再增產。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有延產計畫，初教機未來是要國機國造，還是要外……"],["顧部長立雄：這要由空軍來做一個評估。"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有一個方向？"],["主席：摘要回答。"],["曹參謀長進平：因為初教機到122年才屆壽，這幾年正好是我們各種軍投付款的高峰，所以現在暫時還沒有優先決定。"],["邱委員志偉：所以還在評估？"],["曹參謀長進平：是，還在評估。"],["邱委員志偉：另外10秒鐘，軍醫局蔡局長也在，軍方的醫院有沒有因為護理師人員不足發生關床或者是減刀的狀況？"],["主席：簡單回答。"],["蔡局長建松：有稍微局部的關床，不過……"],["邱委員志偉：不要發生這種狀況，我們軍醫院……"],["蔡局長建松：我們關床的量跟民間的醫院比算小的。"],["邱委員志偉：我問過部立醫院或者是國立教學醫院，幾乎都沒有關床問題，那到底是誰在發生關床問題？"],["主席：邱委員，超過很多10秒鐘了。"],["邱委員志偉：我的10秒鐘比較長一點。"],["蔡局長建松：實際比例各醫院都有一點點，但是我們軍方醫院比例算小的。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望你們要做到零關床。"],["蔡局長建松：是，我們會努力。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，部長請回。接下來進行詢答委員是羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra 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這個應當是符合國際法法相關規定吧這個跟委員報告齁因為現在大部分我想無人機的他那個會越到我們外離島上面都是一些小型的無人機他是零散性的齁但是你不能判斷他是不是有政治宣傳或者是情報搜集的目的嘛"},{"start":132.876,"end":147.136,"text":"他主要的我想都是在從事認知作戰那我想我們是應該要進行這一個反制無人機的一個部署那我想這個最近也積極的在進行當中具體的做法是什麼部署就是你可以驅離嗎"},{"start":149.22,"end":174.299,"text":"我們要用那個干擾的方式讓他來進行其他國家像美國就直接擊落了嘛對不對他認為說這個氣球有這個情報收集的這個氣土他就直接加以擊落所以國際掌防是支持我們用比較強力的手段用武力來排除無人機的入侵這個未來實務可能要定得很清楚而且這種現象可能變成一個常態"},{"start":175.632,"end":199.966,"text":"那我們前方這個所有的我們的這個國軍弟兄面對這種灰色地帶的這個這個狀況該如何處置?對於這種突發狀況我們在突發狀況處置規定裡面有明電啦應該要加以排除排除的方法有很多啊是是有沒有包括武力當然有但是要很明確是什麼樣的情況之下你要使用武力"},{"start":202.897,"end":230.006,"text":"我認為江教授的意見國際法上的實證應當是支持用武力去排除無人機入侵做情報收集等等目的所以我覺得應該更高強度否則你如果沒有用高強度來因應來嚇死他們每天都來每天都來怎麼辦我們這個防部勝防所以一定要拿出這個強力的做法"},{"start":231.85,"end":246.654,"text":"另外這個問題先到此,高校機會不會延產?高校機會不會延產?延產,就是說66架嘛,會不會再延產?因為高校機這個性能非常好嘛,對不對?你平時是做訓練,暫時可以作為作戰。"},{"start":252.036,"end":279.605,"text":"我們現在的計畫應該是沒有要再增產的沒有沒有延產的計畫那出交機未來是要國機國造還是要外交所以要由空軍來做一個評估有沒有一個方向來 再要回答是 包委員因為出交機到122年才接受那這幾年正好是我們各種軍頭現在付款的高峰所以現在暫時還沒有優先決定所以還在評估了還在評估 是另外10秒鐘軍方的醫院軍事局蔡局長也在"},{"start":280.385,"end":289.285,"text":"有沒有因為護理師的運不足發生關床或者是剪刀的狀況?"},{"start":290.904,"end":310.552,"text":"有沒有這種狀況?有稍微局部的關闖,不過...這個不要發生這種狀況,你要...我們關闖的量跟民間的醫院比算小的我問過部立醫院啦,部立醫院或者是這個國立教學醫院幾乎都沒有這個關闖問題那到底誰在關闖問題?這個超過很多十秒鐘了"},{"start":314.033,"end":314.574,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員羅志強委員"}]}},{"id":"154062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b9237f2fd2bf23471dfafafc43ba26a3505b189cb9423c50d57e4f00a45587ec1ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:16:33 - 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10:58:46","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-17","start_time":"2024-06-17T10:48:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T10:58:46+08:00","duration":623,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時48分）請顧部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：我今天想跟部長討論的還是在於我們很多軍職人員退伍以後的狀況，在1991年波灣戰爭的時候，我們看到美軍的後勤司令，其中有一位中將，他為了物流管理設計了整個條碼的系統，打完仗、退役以後，他就到一個很知名的百貨公司去當副總了，這是一個非常好的案例，軍事相關的物流管理經驗累積成為下一段職涯。","我們今天討論到軍職轉換的問題，現在有很多軍校的學生，他們從15歲、18歲進入軍隊裡面，過去的想法是退伍其實就退休了，但我們都很清楚知道現在的狀況可能不是這樣。我想給部長看一下，這是我們從退輔會拿到的統計資料，近3年退伍人員裡面，第一類官兵平均退伍年齡是41歲；第二類官兵占百分63.7%，平均退伍年齡是26歲，所以很明顯大家知道軍職只是他職涯的第一站，絕對不會是終站。我知道現在國防部花很多力氣在思考怎麼再去招募，其實對於這件事情，不管執政黨也好、在野黨也好，大家都給很多的壓力，但我不知道部長知不知道，很多年輕人不願意從軍很重要的原因，是因為他們會想到不是只是報效國家這一段，他們想到的事情是，如果離開了軍隊以後找下一份工作都會是從零開始，沒有什麼重要的累積的話，他們就會開始思考到底要不要去參與國軍的招募、這個對他們來講代價會不會太大，或者會不會走上這條路以後，接下來的人生會更加地辛苦。部長，在經過這一番瞭解以後，我發現我們把軍職的轉職能夠做好，最大的受益者不是退輔會，其實是國防部，部長同不同意？"],["顧部長立雄：是，在軍旅的生涯過程當中，預計退伍的時候如何能夠跟民間的職涯做一個好的轉換這件事情是非常、非常重要，我非常認同。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，可是我們來看一下之前的經驗，2022年的時候國防部內部就做過一次軍民職業的對照，當時這個軍民職業的對照是一個很簡單的職業別的對照，請看一下螢幕，大概就是把空軍的飛行員轉職去開民航機，軍卡的駕駛可以轉民間卡車駕駛的執照，在這個狀況之下，比方野戰部隊、裝甲兵就沒有對應的民間職業了，這是那時候我們發生的狀況。當時這743項軍隊的職務裡面，只有少數可以直接對應，以致這個計畫最後是失敗告終的。所以我現在談的不是簡單的職業對照，而是我們能不能參考其他部會的做法。我也問過退輔會等等其他部會，比方勞動部花了很大的力氣去找專家學者針對職能內涵的轉換來拆分，舉例來說，它拆成幾個層次，包括在主要職責上、工作任務上，以及這些工作任務背後需要什麼知識、技能，做出一個完整的對照表。我們現在看到不只在勞動部，包括在經濟部、教育部都有這樣子比較用科學解析的模式去細分工作內涵的職能。坦白說，目前我們看到好像所有需求的部會裡面，只有國防部還沒有建立這個職能基準對照的分析，再加上大家都知道軍隊比別的部會來得封閉，所以其他的民間公司很難想像這裡面的官科到底在做什麼。","我舉個例子，如果是一個裝甲營的營長，中小企業的老闆看到他的履歷上面寫「戰車營營長」，老闆大概想到的事情是公司又沒有坦克車，他到這裡要做什麼？可是如果今天國防部可以協助他們把職能的內涵給分析清楚的話，大家就知道一個營長要管四百多人的生活、演訓的任務、甚至戰車的維修及調度，這裡面包括很多重要的知能，可能有領導力、運輸管理、人資、倉儲管理，如果這樣子的專長及專業在營長一個人身上都可以有，國防部可以把這些所有的知能都分析出來寫在他的履歷上面，我們相信他在下一階段的職能轉換時，很多企業的老闆就會完全看出這個人不同的背後潛力，甚至聘用他的吸引力就會完全不同，部長同意嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我同意。"],["洪委員申翰：這個工作到目前為止大家談得很久，其他部會都做了，但我們現在看到反而是國防部及退輔會還沒做，所以大概在一個多月前我也問過退輔會，嚴德發主委跟我說他們願意來做，甚至願意出錢。我今天為什麼要在這個地方再問一次顧部長？因為我們很清楚知道就算今天退輔會出錢，可是大部分的人力、資源、資料，抱歉，還是在國防部的手上，國防部在這個事情上面是什麼態度，我認為非常、非常關鍵，甚至我都認為比退輔會更關鍵，所以部長，對於這些工作你有沒有打算往這個方向來推動或怎麼推動？"],["顧部長立雄：有，跟委員報告，我看到退輔會來這裡的時候，就有提到好像大院希望他們提出一些方案出來，所以……"],["洪委員申翰：是，我是6月初的時候先問了他們。"],["顧部長立雄：對，我當時就有跟嚴主委講，國防部應該要跟退輔會合作做好這件事情，事實上我也瞭解現行的做法是沒有辦法達到剛剛委員的期待，所以我現在會積極地建立你剛剛講的職能轉換，不是那麼簡單地講戰車營營長，然後就對照到民間關聯的專長，應該是從他職涯的歷練上來看……"],["洪委員申翰：包括他後面的知能，能夠把他的知能給分析出來。"],["顧部長立雄：對，不涉及機密的情況之下，我們如何來做好這部分的工作。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要提醒你，這是一個非常、非常龐大的工程……"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其是你們涉及到的軍種及很多不同工作崗位上面有很多不同的知能。我們今天在這邊談這件事情不是希望大家草草地做，我們看到勞動部或者教育部，他們做這個盤點的工作是做了數年，也不是一蹴可幾就完成、達成的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：是真的。"],["洪委員申翰：他們確實是這樣，所以今天如果部長願意往這個地方開始，我覺得要給予很大的肯定，可是我希望有沒有可能有一個節奏、甚至有一些優先？比方2023年新退的官兵大概1萬5,000人裡面，步砲裝的戰鬥官科有5,600人，占了37%、將近40%，而且他們確實是在很多轉職上面最困難的一群人。"],["顧部長立雄：對，沒有錯。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們可不可以有些優先順序，比方以他們作為最優先去思考及規劃？我覺得這部分要有一個優先順序的節奏，不然會非常、非常地龐雜，我希望國防部可以拉出一個優先順序的規劃出來，這應該沒有問題吧？"],["顧部長立雄：對，委員指導出這個部分我們到現在為止做連結之間的落點，就是步砲裝這個部分，事實上這個職能背後的知識及經驗的累積是什麼這件事情我們要好好來檢討，然後跟民間職涯做銜接……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我有聽出你願意往這個方向去做，可是有幾件事情我想要……我可不可以請你在一個月內跟退輔會討論你們在這麼大的計畫裡面你們的分工關係是什麼，一個月送到外交及國防委員會讓我們知道你們的分工關係、協同關係是什麼，這是第一點。第二點，我們也希望是不是可以每三個月跟我們立法院報告一次這件事情的進度？書面的，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：我來跟退輔會好好地討論一下，因為我事實上對這件事情很重視，所以我才會跟嚴主委講，當然，退輔會能不能夠跟國防部在這個部分配合，我再跟……"],["主席：洪委員，未來我們就三個月排一次專報，他就會來。"],["洪委員申翰：我們要這麼暴力嗎？我覺得可以用書面，但是我希望你一個月先讓我們知道你們跟退輔會的分工關係，就是相對應地你們在這裡面的分工報告可以讓外交及國防委員會先知道，這應該沒有問題吧？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我來努力。謝謝。"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，部長請回。","我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：好，我們恢復開會。","接下來進行詢答的委員是張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.26284375,"end":1.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.31221875,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.15471875,"end":23.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.32221875,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.939718750000004,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.89284375000001,"end":104.67284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.06096875,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.56221875000001,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.86409375000001,"end":128.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.37346875,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.35221875000002,"end":150.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.66971875000002,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.95221875000001,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.04471875000002,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.26284375,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.57346875000002,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.87284375000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.20659375000002,"end":203.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.16784375,"end":206.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.08721875,"end":216.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.82409375,"end":259.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.65284375000005,"end":279.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.42596875000004,"end":289.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.58471875000004,"end":324.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.02659375,"end":330.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.59534375000004,"end":338.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.01596875,"end":358.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.13096875,"end":388.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.67909375000005,"end":401.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.67721875,"end":403.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.45346875,"end":402.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.39409375,"end":414.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.83534375000005,"end":445.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.63221875000005,"end":447.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.21846875000006,"end":448.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.67409375000005,"end":450.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.37846875,"end":455.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.77409375,"end":469.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.89846875,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.55534375,"end":480.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.15846875000005,"end":480.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.98659375000005,"end":500.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.20159375000003,"end":508.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.79971875,"end":508.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.93034375,"end":525.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.5859687500001,"end":546.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.2765937500001,"end":534.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.7009687500001,"end":554.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.8640937499999,"end":558.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.4584687500001,"end":575.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.6272187500001,"end":559.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.13346875,"end":559.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.60784375,"end":574.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.10971875,"end":577.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.96596875,"end":593.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.34096875,"end":581.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.75284375,"end":595.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.08971875,"end":616.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.4609687500001,"end":597.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.5047187499999,"end":613.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.0447187500001,"end":614.93909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.569,"end":22.187,"text":"請顧部長來,部長請是,洪委員好部長,這個我今天其實是想要來跟部長討論的還是是我們其實在這個很多我們軍職的人員那退伍以後的這個狀況"},{"start":24.709,"end":42.104,"text":"在1991年的波灣戰爭的時候我們其實看到這個美軍的後勤的司令其實其中有一個中將那他其實為了這個物流的管理那設計了整個條碼的系統那這個打完仗以後退役後他其實就到一個很知名的百貨公司去當副總"},{"start"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﹏﹏"},{"start":259.79,"end":277.848,"text":"所有需求的部會裡面只有國防部還沒有建立這個職能基準的這樣的對照的分析再加上大家都知道其實軍隊其實比別的部會來的封閉的所以其他的民間公司很難想像我們這裡面一些官科到底是在做什麼我們這邊舉個例子如果你是一個裝甲營的營長"},{"start":280.53,"end":300.82,"text":"一個中小企業的老闆他看到你的履歷上面寫戰車營營長他大概想的事情是說我們又沒有坦克車所以你到我們這邊來要做什麼可是如果今天國防部可以協助他們把這個職能的內涵給分析清楚的話你大概就知道說其實一個營長他要管"},{"start":301.34,"end":302.141,"text":"我們相信下一階段的職能轉換"},{"start":330.66,"end":357.8,"text":"很多企業的老闆就會完全看出不同的這個人背後的潛力甚至聘用的這個吸引力就會完全的不同部長同意嗎?是,我同意但是這個工作到目前為止其實大家談的很久其他部會都做了但我們現在看到反而是我們國防部跟退伏會還沒做所以大概在一個多月前我其實也問過退伏會退伏會說目前那個顏德發"},{"start":359.221,"end":388.092,"text":"主委跟我說他們願意來做甚至他們說他們願意出錢所以我今天為什麼要在這個地方再問一次顧部長因為我們很清楚知道就算今天退府會出錢可是大部分的人力資源資料抱歉還是在國防部的手上所以國防部在這個事情上面是什麼態度我認為就是非常非常關鍵甚至我都認為比退府會更關鍵所以部長你覺得這些下面的工作你有沒有打算往這個方向來推動或怎麼推動"},{"start":388.775,"end":413.11,"text":"有,事實上跟委員報告因為我看到那個退伍會來這裡的時候就提到說好像大院有希望他們提出一些方案出來我是六月初的時候先問了他們對,那我當時就跟原主委我有跟他講我就說國防部應該要跟退伍會來合作來做好這些事情所以我"},{"start":415.171,"end":430.854,"text":"事實上也瞭解我們現行的這個做法是沒有辦法達到這個崗委員的這個期待所以我現在會來積極的來建立這樣子你剛剛講的這個職能轉換他這個相關的這些不是那麼簡單的講就是說你的戰車營營長然後就對照到民間的這個關聯的專長這樣子的部分應該是從他"},{"start":443.977,"end":447.719,"text":"指揚的理念上來看指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚指揚"},{"start":470.111,"end":498.764,"text":"以我們看到勞動部或者是教育部來說的話他們做這個盤點的工作是做了數年的工作也不是一觸可擊就完成達成的事情他們確實是這樣所以今天如果部長願意往這個地方開始當然我覺得給他給予很大的肯定可是我是希望說有沒有可能我們其實有一個節奏甚至是有一些優先比方說我們來看2023年新退的官兵大概一萬五千人裡面這個布號裝的戰鬥官科裡面站"},{"start":499.684,"end":526.067,"text":"對﹗"},{"start":526.447,"end":551.977,"text":"委員指導出這一個部分我們到現在為止做連結之間的一個弱點的這個點就布泡裝的這個部分事實上背後的職能知識跟他的經驗的累積是什麼這件事情我們要好好來檢討然後來跟民間職業做做做銜接我聽出你願意往這個方向去可是有幾件事情我想我可不可以請你在一個月內跟退府會"},{"start":552.737,"end":574.864,"text":"你們可以討論一個你們在這個這麼大的計畫裡面你們的分工關係是什麼那一個月讓我們知道送到這個外交國防委員會讓我們知道你們的分工關係這裡面你們的協同關係是什麼這是第一點第二點我們也希望說是不是可以每三個月來跟我們立法院來報告一次你們這事情的進度三個月"},{"start":578.267,"end":594.907,"text":"我來跟退伍會好好地討論一下因為我事實上對這件事情是很重所以我才會跟原主委有講當然我退伍會是能不能夠跟國防部在這個部分做配合未來我們就三個月排一次專報他就會來"},{"start":596.608,"end":597.869,"text":"謝謝洪山委員 部長請回 我們休息五分鐘"}]}},{"id":"154058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b9236e0f60aa3a27d0fafafc43ba26a35056824d40b1933d675a8298b5aff6b46715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:38:48 - 10:48:08","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-17","start_time":"2024-06-17T10:38:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T10:48:08+08:00","duration":560,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（10時38分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，昨天是黃埔軍校建校100週年校慶，當然趁著這次的機會，中國也是大規模的邀請臺灣的退役官兵到廣州的黃埔軍校去做參訪，原先是傳出要邀請將近三千名的官兵，我想請教部長，昨天有掌握到有多少人過去嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：政戰局是不是說明一下這個部分？"],["陳局長育琳：這部分退輔會嚴主委回答的時候說，大概是一百位左右。"],["羅委員美玲：那是之前還沒有過去之前，說可能大約一百位，經過昨天之後，我想國防部是不是也可以跟退輔會瞭解一下到底有多少人過去？"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["羅委員美玲：先前其他的委員其實也稍微有……之前我聽過，他們除了去參訪，除了參加這次的活動之外，讓我們覺得可能要請國安單位或是請國防部要留意的是，這些退役軍人被帶到廈門去辦比如居住證、敬老證、駕駛證、銀行卡等等，辦理這些證件是不是需要他們的指紋、照片等等？我在想這會不會有國安的疑慮，這部分我們有掌握嗎？因為之前的報導是這樣，昨天黃埔建校100週年活動結束了，那你們所掌握到的有沒有相關像報導所提到的這樣，他們到那邊辦了各種證件，然後把自己的生物特徵等於是上繳給中國，有沒有這樣子的狀況？"],["在場人員：我想他們只是在網路上提供……"],["羅委員美玲：有嗎？這些退役軍人到中國去，國防部完全……還是說這是退輔會的事情，與你們無關？感覺上你們好像對這個部分完全沒有掌握哩！完全不知道？無法掌握？那就糟糕啦！"],["顧部長立雄：因為這個是退役的部分，我們再跟輔導會那邊瞭解一下。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這是輔導會的事情，國防部這邊完全沒有……退了之後就跟國防部沒有關係了，是這樣子嗎？我在想這應該不太對喔！"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們確實應該要瞭解，我們會來進行掌握。"],["羅委員美玲：昨天賴清德總統提到，中華民國在哪裡，黃埔精神就在哪裡；甚至國民黨的朱立倫主席都說，中華民國在哪裡，黃埔軍魂就在哪裡。可是我們看得出來，有些退役軍人對這個部分好像沒有認同，我就覺得這是非常糟糕的一件事情，像2016年我們有一些退將到中國去訪問，還唱了中國的國歌，8年過去了，我們好像對這些人都毫無辦法。甚至現在我問國防部有沒有掌握到這些人，雖然他們是退役軍人，可是他們的這些行為，在國人看來，對國軍的整體形象其實是扣分的喔！所以這部分不單單是退輔會的事情，我想國防部都要瞭解，到底這些退役軍人到那裡去到底做了什麼事情、對國家安全有沒有影響？國防部今天的回答讓本席還蠻失望的。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我們主要是在於涉密離退人員的核定，赴陸管制的期間裡面，從3年甚至到……"],["羅委員美玲：所以管制之後就……"],["顧部長立雄：到10年，當然管制之後，我們還是希望這些不要赴陸參加黨政軍活動而有妨害國家尊嚴的行為。就這個部分，在管制的期限之後，我們還是會對這些退役將領們予以關切，跟他做充分說明。"],["羅委員美玲：是啊！我覺得說本來國防部就應該有延續的關注，而不是他退役之後，當然我們知道有限制的年限，年限到了之後，他們到中國去做什麼好像就與國防部無關、好像是輔導會的事情，我想這部分真的是不應該……"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分委員的指教，我們會跟退輔會好好地研議，大家互相協作……"],["羅委員美玲：因為這跟國家安全有關係。"],["顧部長立雄：是，對，因為主要……"],["羅委員美玲：這應該是各個部會，國安單位都要非常重視的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：大家一起都是國安團隊的一員。"],["羅委員美玲：是，我問到相關的單位，應該都有一些認知，而不是說他們是退役軍人，是跟退輔會有關係，我覺得這是不OK的事情。"],["顧部長立雄：我想包括國安局等等，這些國安單位，甚至……"],["羅委員美玲：是啊！國安局、國防部、退輔會，我想這是跟你們有關係耶！本席是這麼認為。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["羅委員美玲：不是說我問到這個問題，你們的答案是不知道有多少人過去，然後不曉得他們做什麼、到底有沒有去做？做了這些證件，你們都還是沒有掌握，我覺得這是不對的，都是國安單位，都是需要注意的事情。","除了這些退役軍官到中國去，接受他們的招待也好，或者是統戰也好，最近有一些像網紅也都透露，中國用機加酒的方式邀請臺灣網紅到中國去，類似這種的中國利用各種方式要滲透臺灣，我想這都是國防部要特別留意的事情。","再來還有一點我想請教，像我們行政單位對小紅書也好，抖音也好，我們是禁止這些軟體的使用嘛！我們官方目前全面禁止，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是……"],["羅委員美玲：是嘛！可是部長知道嗎？其實臺灣有好幾百萬人在用小紅書、抖音，那我想請問，像中國有一些假訊息或者大外宣，經過像是小紅書、抖音來傳遞，讓臺灣年輕人全面地接收這個訊息的話，那我們要怎麼辦？我們像國安單位有沒有辦法對這些軟體去做一些澄清，怎麼處理呢？這部分請問部長。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，就我的理解是這樣子，因為我在國安會也待過，我們整個是跨部會的一個協作關係，那麼整個認知作戰、反認知作戰這樣子的部分，整個是一個全面性、全政府都要來做的事情，而國防部的立場就是加入在反認知作戰的這一環，那我們著重當然是在我們官兵部分的媒體識讀跟認知作戰宣傳的部分……"],["羅委員美玲：是，我們資通電軍這部分要如何做監管，比如像他們在小紅書或抖音，可能也有跟國安有關係的一些訊息的話，我們有辦法去做監管嗎？因為我們現在是全面禁止使用這些軟體，如果經由小紅書或者抖音出來的這些假訊息，請問我們的資通電軍是如何掌握這裡面的內容？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說對於我們的官兵在使用這些……"],["羅委員美玲：不是，我是說我們有一個資通電軍，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們有資通電軍。"],["羅委員美玲：像小紅書、抖音，民眾如果接受這些訊息，然後跟國安有關係的話，請問你們是如何去掌握？"],["顧部長立雄：我想最主要是在政戰局的文宣部分來做掌握。"],["陳局長育琳：是，跟委員報告，我們如果發現跟國防有相關的假訊息，會即時去做一個澄清，透過我們相關的文宣管道。"],["顧部長立雄：我們都會進行，有沒有協作，就中共這樣子的一個……然後我們會對於假訊息影響的程度做分析。事實上這個不是只有國軍在做而已，是我們全政府都在做的一件事情。"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["羅委員美玲：好，以上謝謝，因為中國的滲透是無孔不入，也需要各個單位留意。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們是整個國安團隊的一環，我們協同來做。"],["羅委員美玲：好。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員。部長請回。","接下來進行詢答的是洪申翰委員。洪申翰委員詢答結束後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra 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2016年的時候我們有一些退將到中國去訪問還唱了中國的這個國歌那八年過去了我們好像對這些人呢毫無辦法現在我們國防部有沒有掌握到這些人雖然說他們是退役軍人可是他們的這些行為其實對國人會對國軍的整體形象其實是扣分的"},{"start":212.705,"end":212.865,"text":"國防部還蠻失望的。"},{"start":233.546,"end":250.716,"text":"因為我們主要是在以秘密離退人員的核定互入管制的這個期間裡面從三年甚至一到十年當然管制之後我們還是希望這些不要互入參加黨政軍的活動而有妨礙國家尊嚴的這個行為"},{"start":253.508,"end":269.37,"text":"就這一個部分在離開管制的期限之後我們還是會對這些退役的將領們我們來會與關切然後來跟他做充分的說明"},{"start":270.131,"end":292.122,"text":"是啊,我是覺得說這本來就是應該是國防部應該要有延續的這個關注而不是說他退役之後當然我們知道說他有一些限制的年限年限到了之後他們到對到那個中國去做什麼好像就就與國防部無關好像就是跟輔導才是輔導會的這事情我想這部分真的是"},{"start":293.222,"end":321.581,"text":"這個部分委員的指教我們會來跟退伏會好好的研議大家互相來協助因為這是跟國家安全有關係這部分應該是各個部會國安單位都是要來非常重視的部分大家都一起是國安單位的應該是我問到相關的單位應該都有一些認知而不是說這個是他們是退役軍人然後是跟退伏會有關係我覺得這是不OK的事情我想這個包括國安局等等"},{"start":323.122,"end":345.172,"text":"國安局、國防部、退府會,我想這是跟你們有關係欸,本期是這麼認為啦,不是說我問到這問題你們的答案,所以我不知道多少人有過去,然後我不曉得他們做什麼,到底有沒有去做這些政見,你們都還是沒有掌握。我覺得這是不對的,都是國安單位都是要注意的事情。好,那除了說,除了這些退役軍官呢,"},{"start":346.372,"end":346.392,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":372.894,"end":386.704,"text":"我們行政單位對小紅書也好抖音也好我們是禁止這些軟體的使用嘛我們官方目前全面的禁止嘛對不對是可是你知道嗎部長你知道嗎像台灣有好幾百萬人在用小紅書用抖音"},{"start":391.787,"end":391.807,"text":"請問部長﹗"},{"start":419.428,"end":427.009,"text":"跟委員報告就我的理解是這樣子因為我在國安會也待過我們這個是整個是跨部會的一個"},{"start":428.124,"end":451.993,"text":"一個協作的關係那麼整個認知作戰反認知作戰這樣子一個部分整個是一個全面性全政府都要來做的事情那國防部立場就是加入在這一個反認知作戰的這一環那我們著重當然是在我們官兵部分的在媒體世獨跟認知作戰宣傳的這一個部分要來著重"},{"start":452.193,"end":480.077,"text":"質詢。"},{"start":480.097,"end":507.151,"text":"您是說對於我們的官兵在使用這些不是不是不是我是說我們的我們有一個自通電軍嘛是不是對我們有自通電軍我們是不是如何去掌握說像像猴叔抖音像民眾如果接收這些訊息的話然後是跟國安有關係的話你們是如何去掌握呢請問我想這主要是在國安那個政戰局的這一個那個文宣大文宣的部分來來做一個掌握這樣是"},{"start":507.651,"end":526.938,"text":"跟委員報告我們如果有發現就是跟國防有相關的假訊息那我們會即時的去做一個澄清透過我們相關的文宣管道我們都會進行有沒有協作就中共協作的這樣子的一個激政"},{"start":527.398,"end":529.68,"text":"閱讀新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":552.762,"end":557.331,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是紅色岸委員紅色岸委員詢答結束我們休息五分鐘來紅色岸委員請"}]}},{"id":"154057","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154057","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b92817dfc8545b28262afafc43ba26a35056824d40b1933d675143847ea1a8270d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:30:07 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10:38:37","影片長度":"00:08:30","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-17","start_time":"2024-06-17T10:30:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T10:38:37+08:00","duration":510,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":394,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時30分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好，因為剛剛徐委員已經提到了改休假不合理回報這件事情，所以這個部分我們就是快速帶過就好了，畢竟國軍改革不易，一開始休假回報這件事情，我們也看到在匿名的版上有很多人說很高興有這樣的一些回報，但是後來也出現了剛剛徐委員提到的，就是很多人有時候會自行去解讀命令，因為最早就提到減法這件事情，希望之後還可以再繼續執行這項措施，因為剛剛已經回答過徐委員，這個部分我就跳過了。","接下來我想問一下夜視鏡的問題，就是2023年的時候軍備局說401廠就大概12億元的光放管，當時有說這個光放管的不合格率達到85%，但後來又說現在401廠新的採購，陸軍回復使用狀況均正常，是不是能夠說明一下這中間的過程發生什麼事？"],["林局長文祥：委員好，我是軍備局局長，跟你報告我們的光放管前兩年因為烏俄戰爭的關係的確到貨都比較不正常，這個案子王召委和很多委員在去年都關心過，但自從去年以來我們新的案子對外採購了一萬兩千個，我們是向美國、法國採購，現在來的品質都還不錯，尤其合格率都已經到達了85%跟90%以上，還有很多東歐國家包括我們的友盟捷克都有來投單，相信這個情形，去年王召委和很多委員都已經關心過這個問題，目前我們的光放管採購的品質和進度是正常的，跟委員做個回報。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，我想再繼續問一下，今年的5月我看又有夜視鏡的詢商公告，也是5萬具，在401廠之外，想要尋找其他的商源，剛好聽到可能有美國、法國等等，我知道我們自己是不使用中國製的相關零件，那我想問一下臺灣的廠商呢？"],["陳參謀長建義：我跟委員報告，現在因為是第二階段的夜視鏡採購，作戰需求文件已經奉核了，現在是在細分、商源訪查的階段，國內廠商目前也有十餘家有探詢的意願。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，我問這一個問題是因為我知道臺灣一直以來都有廠商在做，但是有兩個困境，第一個困境就是我們在找這些臺灣廠商的時候，我們是跟他拿成品，還是說他的技術也要能夠交給軍方？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們是跟他拿成品，當然包含後續維保的料件，還有後續的保固。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，第二個問題就是在臺灣的這些廠商，他們有些本來直接做國外的案子，並沒有做臺灣國軍的案子，如果他來找臺灣國軍的案子，目前這一個標準為何？因為最早的時候我們在向美國、法國採購之前有遇到不合格率高的狀況，那現在要怎麼去解決這個問題？"],["陳參謀長建義：剛剛委員質詢的第一階段的採購就是401廠製造的，401廠事實上有相關的關鍵技術，我們在細分階段會從這些訪商的過程中評估整個的價格還有相關的品質是否依照作戰需求。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK，謝謝。這一個部分就是今年5月的媒體報導，美國驗收不合格的部分我先不問，我問第二個，就是第三代光放管採購案第一標案被評選不合格的廠商，同規格第二標案得標的廠商居然是前案被刷掉的廠商，是不是能夠針對這件事情做一個回復？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員說明，第一標被刷掉的那是很多年了，我們依照採購法的相關規定，任何一個標案廠商有沒有來承包我們的案子，我們都是根據國防採購室的標準規範，當初他假如違反規定，被停權一年、兩年或三年都有相關規範。"],["沈委員伯洋：當時的原因是什麼？"],["林局長文祥：當時的原因我們查了，就是他當時的產量跟品質沒辦法通過。"],["沈委員伯洋：我覺得畢竟是新聞報導，所以有必要說明。接下來就是如果像剛剛前面講的標準都按照作戰需求、都一致的話，那第二次的這一次就一定要特別注意，因為畢竟有發生過前例，這是一定要注意的事。","另外本來今天還想問全民防衛，但我看時間實在是不太夠，這個先跳過，我問一下無人機。之前我看到有DIU，部長也有提到就是先進國防科技小組，不知道是昨天的新聞還是前天的新聞有講到AI的運用，因為我看新聞報導得非常模糊，說什麼返航之類的，那個跟我理解的運用在無人機上的AI有點不太一樣，所以我覺得這個可能是新聞報導不詳細的地方，不知道是國防部還是產業論壇釋出的訊息可能記者在撰寫的時候出了一些問題，但我最主要不是要問這一個，是要問我們現在已經有大量的無人機相關採購，本來試飛可能要從陸地往海上飛，可能要飛個100公里，但飛100公里就要到海峽中線了，所以這對大家來講也是非常的困難，目前來講，看到亞創這一邊，這三個地方距離加起來看來是50公里，可能就只能用來回飛去測這100公里，不知道現在測試的狀況如何？因為畢竟還要跟民航協調等等，還有沒有更好的一個機制，可以讓試飛這件事情變得更容易？"],["陳參謀長建義：我跟委員報告，您所問的無人機的性能，這是樣機的測試，是我們採購標案裡面的第一階段，包含在資格標裡面，這個樣機的測試已經在6月份實施完畢了，之所以在亞創實施，是結合它相關的科技，這是為了驗證我們國內的產能，跟實際的作戰需求不一樣，到了最有利標評選出來以後，我們會依據我們的作戰需求的場景來測試，不見得會是在亞創。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，之前在辦公室也有提到就是要符合作戰需求，所以我也有把標案寫出來，譬如滯空6小時、最大飛行速度31，這在第一次的時候看起來都是一個個別項目，但接下來如果要符合作戰需求的話，應該要綜合測試，因為如果不綜合測試，只是單單過了第7項或單單過了第12項，這個對我們的作戰需求是沒有意義的。因為只剩一點時間，我再建議一下，就是無人機會有一些功率跟頻率的問題，即使是同一家廠商，因為它有不同的形式，譬如它是艦載的、目獲的，頻率不同，其實這個可能都要跟NCC來協調，之後跟NCC協調這件事情可能也要儘快進行，因為已經到下面這個階段了。"],["陳參謀長建義：這個在聯六的部分，已經有把我們軍用演訓的頻率波段作相關匡列了，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：太好了，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：所以我們那個頻率都OK了？好，謝謝。部長請回。","下一位請羅美玲委員進行詢答。本席在此宣告，洪申翰委員詢答結束，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.7690937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.649718750000002,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.72971875,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.23659375000001,"end":96.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.11284375000001,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.54284375,"end":99.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.88034375000001,"end":110.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.72659375,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.97159375,"end":158.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.21284375000002,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.97721875000002,"end":196.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.38409375,"end":204.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.15096875,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.77159375000002,"end":252.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.27846875000003,"end":276.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.23659375,"end":297.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.52721875000003,"end":280.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.60909375,"end":297.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.14471875000004,"end":300.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.69284375,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.97409375,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.17784375,"end":402.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.22971875,"end":441.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.63846875,"end":432.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.53159375,"end":441.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.61596875000004,"end":441.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.75096875,"end":487.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.51596875,"end":496.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.16534375000003,"end":490.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.46409375,"end":498.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.94034375,"end":501.99471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.12971875000005,"end":503.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.81721875000005,"end":509.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.31,"text":"請部長,謝謝。來,部長請。"},{"start":9.636,"end":34.053,"text":"好部長好那因為剛剛這個徐委員已經提到了就是說這一個改休假不合理回報這件事情所以呢這個部分呢我們就是快速帶過就好了就是說一開始在這個畢竟國訓改革不易啦那一開始休假回報這件事情呢也看到很多這個在匿名的這個板上面呢很多人就說很高興有這樣的一些回報"},{"start":34.873,"end":52.072,"text":"但是呢後來就是也出現了就是剛剛這一個學友委員提到的就是很多人有時候他們會自行這個去解讀這個命令那所以希望呢就是因為最早就提到檢法這件事情那希望呢之後還可以再繼續這一個那個執行這項措施那因為剛剛已經回答過學友委員這個部分我就跳過了"},{"start":57.437,"end":73.982,"text":"接下來我想問一下葉世晋的問題就是說呢這個2023年的時候呢軍備局有說這個401廠就大概12億元的這一個光放管那這個光放管當時呢有說就是有不合格率達到85%但後來呢有說這個呢現在401新的這些新的採購呢入軍回復使用狀況均正常是不是能夠說明一下這個中間的過程是發生什麼事謝謝"},{"start":89.355,"end":110.112,"text":"議員好,我是秘密局局長跟你報告就是說我們前兩年確實官方館我們無惡戰爭的確的那個到貨都比較不正常那這個案子我們王釗緯在去年很多委員都關心過那自從去年以來我們新的案子我們對外採購的一萬兩千個我們是從"},{"start":111.789,"end":135.788,"text":"美國、法國現在來的品質都還不錯尤其我們的合格率都已經到達了百分之八十五跟九十以上那我們還有很多東歐的國家包括我們的友盟連捷克都有來投單相信這個情形我們從去年我們從王釗偉到很多委員都已經有關心這個問題目前我們的官方的採購的品質目前進度是正常的跟委員來做個回報"},{"start":136.348,"end":158.276,"text":"好,那我想再繼續問一下就是說呢因為今年的五月嘛又有在這一個我看有這一個夜市季的這個尋商公告啦那這件事情呢大概有這個也是五萬具有401之外想要尋找其他的那剛好聽到可能有美國、法國等等之類的那我知道我們自己是不使用這個中國製的這個相關的零件那我想問一下就是台灣的廠商呢"},{"start":159.861,"end":173.989,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在因為這個這是第二階段的夜視鏡的採購那作戰需求文件已經奉核了那現在是在一個細分我們在做一個商員訪查的階段"},{"start":177.611,"end":195.983,"text":"國內的廠商目前也有十餘家有探尋的意願OK,因為我問這一個原因是因為我知道台灣一直以來也都有廠商在做但是有兩個困境第一個困境就是說呢我們在找這些台灣廠商的時候我們是跟他拿成品還是說他的技術也要能夠交給軍方呢?"},{"start":197.618,"end":211.405,"text":"我們是跟他拿成品當然包含後續的違保的料件還有後續的這些保固OK那第二個問題就是說呢在台灣的這些廠商他們有些他本來就直接做國外的案子他並沒有做這個台灣國軍的案子那"},{"start":213.766,"end":226.081,"text":"如果他來找台灣國軍的案子目前這個標準為何?因為在最早的時候我們在採購這個美國法國之前我們有遇到這個就是不合格率高的這個狀況那現在要怎麼去解決這個問題?如果是台灣的廠商來的話"},{"start":228.854,"end":252.029,"text":"目前我們因為本身401廠它在剛剛您委員質詢的這個第一階段的採購就是401廠製造的那401廠事實上是有相關的關鍵技術那我們會從我們在細分階段從這些仿商的過程我們會評估它整個的價格還有相關的品質是否依照專案需求"},{"start":255.29,"end":276.156,"text":"謝謝這是今年5月的媒體報導我想問一下美國這個部分的驗收不合格我先不問這個我問第二個在第三代光飯館採購案第一標案被評選他說不合格的廠商同規格第二標案得標的廠商居然是前案被刷掉的廠商是不是能夠針對這件事情做一個回覆呢?"},{"start":277.264,"end":299.022,"text":"跟委員說明第一票被刷掉的是很多年了我們依照我們的採購法裡面的相關規定任何個標案它有沒有來承包我們的案子我們這是經過我們的國防採購室標準的一個規範當初它假如違反規定它被停權是停一年、兩年、三年都有相關的規範當時的原因是什麼當時的原因應該"},{"start":301.063,"end":327.071,"text":"當時的原因我們查了就是他當時的品質也是交不出來產量跟品質也是沒辦法通過的部分好那所以呢這一次因為我覺得秘密新聞報導所以有必要說明嘛所以呢接下來就是如果剛剛像前面講的標準按照中戰需求都有一致的話那這一次第二次的這一次就一定要特別注意因為畢竟有發生過潛力然後我覺得這個是一定要注意的事那這一個全民防衛本來今天想問但我看時間實在是不太夠我這個先"},{"start":329.349,"end":346.022,"text":"我這個先稍微跳過一下我問一下無人機就是說無人機因為之前我看到有這個DIU這個我看到部長也有提到就是先進國防科技小組那應該是昨天的新聞還是前天的新聞有講到AI的一個運用那我當然知道AI的運用在這邊因為我看新聞報導的非常模糊說什麼"},{"start":347.005,"end":370.06,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":370.16,"end":394.47,"text":"因為本來要試飛這件事情可能要陸地然後往這個海上飛可能要飛個100公里那這個飛的100公里就要到海峽中線了所以這個對大家來講也是非常的困難那目前來講看到雅創這一邊它這三個地方距離加起來看來是50那50這樣來回可能就只能用來回飛來去測這個100所以在這個部分不知道現在在測試的狀況"},{"start":395.45,"end":409.608,"text":"因為畢竟要跟民航協調啊什麼等等之類的他有沒有更好的一個機制可以讓是非這件事情變得更容易主任我跟委員報告您所提問的這個無人機的性能它這個是一個樣機的測試對"},{"start":411.25,"end":420.873,"text":"這是在我們採購的標案裡面的第一階段包含到資格標裡面這個樣機的測試已經在6月份已經實施完畢了之所以在雅創實施是結合它相關的科技這個是驗證我們國內的產能它跟實際的作戰需求不一樣"},{"start":434.578,"end":458.691,"text":"最有利標在評選出來以後我們會依據我們的作戰需求的場景來測試不見得會是在雅創好,那這個剛好之前也在辦公室的時候也有提到就是要符合作戰需求所以我這邊也有把這些標案的地方有把它寫出來譬如說制空6小時最大飛行速度31這個在最早的第一次的時候看起來都是一個個別的項目但接下來如果要符合作戰需求的話它應該要綜合測試"},{"start":460.932,"end":486.846,"text":"如果你不綜合測試他只是單單過了第7項或單單過了第12項這個對我們的作戰需求是沒有意義的那因為只剩一點時間我再建議一下就是說因為無人機它會有一些功率和跟頻率的問題那即使是同一家廠商它有不同的比如說它是建載的、木貨的它的那一個頻率不同那不同的話呢其實這個都可能需要跟NCC來做協調所以呢這個就是之後跟NCC協調這件事情可能也要盡快進行因為已經到下面這個階段了"},{"start":487.967,"end":489.288,"text":"我們下一位羅美玲委員進行詢答本席在這邊宣告"}]}},{"id":"154056","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154056","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b924c84f8f68472b1c4afafc43ba26a35056824d40b1933d67552976c251cd3d18d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:20:30 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對我們開戰的話我們要直接宣布投降有這樣賴清德總統所謂的投降主義派的話可不可以幫我們點名一下"},{"start":177.441,"end":193.027,"text":"我想總統主要在強調的就是我們要有自我防衛的能力這個我們都認同這個我們都認同但是我想他演講的這個意思主要主要意思是這樣嘛但是因為他的說法就會讓大家揣測說你是不是認為有一些人"},{"start":193.567,"end":197.09,"text":"他認為中共打來我們就投降他反對這樣子的說法那如果有這樣子的一個揣測的話那我們就想知道啊有這樣的說法有這樣的想法的人到底是誰我要陪賴總統一起罵他陪郭部長一起罵他我是願意的"},{"start":211.641,"end":214.304,"text":"我只知道賴總統意思就是要不斷地不斷地強化我們自我防衛的能力"},{"start":226.918,"end":252.446,"text":"我們播一下影片好不好這是第一個影片是我們可以看一下部長您還有旁邊這個吳釗燮、顏德發跟韓國瑜院長跟總統來看一下好我們這個踢著正步的軍人朋友們這個進行了讓大家覺得非常感動的儀式等一下鏡頭會再回到台上當這些踢正步的軍人們只有這樣嗎"},{"start":254.026,"end":261.754,"text":"那你可能放錯了但是再放另外一個好不好第6年油電機器周澤雄代理"},{"start":265.987,"end":294.94,"text":"你放的是一樣的影片你有發現這件事嗎好總之呢那我直接用口述的好不好因為我們的這個助理他沒有放出影片來那基本上呢這個我影片會再傳給媒體朋友第一個狀況呢就是部長您在大家在就是比如說旁邊的軍官在敬禮的時候您有點手足無措的情況就是偷看了一下隔壁的然後呢想說這個時候我應不應該敬禮這是第一點"},{"start":295.64,"end":321.43,"text":"第二點呢我們知道昨天有一個最感人的是我們有平均57歲的這個退役軍官他們組成了一個隊伍然後共同的來踢著正步經過的時候所有全場都給予他們掌聲包含賴總統包含韓院長再包含到所有台上的貴賓但是您當時呢沒有任何的舉措我想問一下部長當時的心情是什麼"},{"start":322.455,"end":337.854,"text":"跟委員報告您講的可能是兩段不同的對兩段兩段一個部分是他先有一個向總統致敬取這一個部分那這一個部分呢當時我想我舉扶手禮"},{"start":338.575,"end":358.968,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":359.048,"end":368.702,"text":"但是我還是舉起來我懂我懂我懂部長我覺得你很努力的在融入我們的軍隊這一點我也給你肯定但是我覺得類似這樣的狀況可能我們的包含我們的那個同仁"},{"start":375.411,"end":394.99,"text":"應該要在黃埔事前來跟我們部長好好做說明整個禮儀的過程否則被媒體拍下這樣子的一個影片大家會認為你對於軍隊管理是不夠熟悉的下一個問題也是剛才很多人都問過但是呢我一定要把這個陳情再給大家下一張投影片好不好下一張投影片再下一張"},{"start":396.272,"end":405.162,"text":"這是您在上任之後所做的一些改革。那包含呢,裡面有一個這個是安全查核管制方式。然後還有這個主要是回報的這個部分。"},{"start":410.908,"end":431.189,"text":"．廢除官兵休假回報．有事再回報即可．但這個事情．對於中階長官．在領導基層幹部來說．遇到了一個很大的難題．所以光是這一個禮拜．部長我必須告訴您喔．我們就是光我辦公室．就收到了十幾封的陳情書．我們來看一下所有的陳情好不好．你看．他說．"},{"start":433.331,"end":454.819,"text":"我空軍防空部同學說他們營長解釋二四零零安全回報不用了但二一五零就請前需回報是否反應真的把國防部的命令當成放屁另外一邊講什麼呢不回報改成投票回報他直接在賴群組上面叫大家用投票的方式回報那還不是一樣再來"},{"start":456.038,"end":460.16,"text":"另外一個,監察宣導部長只有說取消回報沒有說取消每日視訊反查發明新名詞厲害吧然後請各單位由互助組長實施視訊反查更麻煩了本來只要寫個LINE而已他現在叫你要視訊然後還要幹嘛截圖回報感謝配合右邊"},{"start":479.349,"end":505.489,"text":"根據政戰部門的示意部長您的說法他自己在解釋欸每週休假呢並不是回報而是反查所以呢早就取資格安全回報在大棚部長就取消了啦這一次的人事不好意思我們主席再借我一分鐘我把這個念完好不好然後呢國防部長本身也只是表示取消安全回報故休假互助組反查並沒有取消後面還有嗎"},{"start":506.61,"end":517.984,"text":"好,就這四篇我最後想要請我們部長回答一件事情就好光是我辦公室一個禮拜我沒有把所有的都放上去因為我知道我的時間不夠類似這樣在國軍基層裡面您所下的指令他們不僅是沒有完全服從還自己善改"},{"start":526.474,"end":541.424,"text":"還把事情弄得更麻煩還用賴投票的方式要他們回復請問一下部長針對這種狀況你打算要怎麼處理請再要回答跟我的報告我已經在內部已經再度要求那如果還有類似的這個狀況我想我會嚴格來執行這樣"},{"start":546.167,"end":547.248,"text":"接下來進行詢答的委員是沈博洋委員"}]}},{"id":"154055","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154055","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b923a33350a692a916fafafc43ba26a35056824d40b1933d675a515b23fefa1fd695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:08:18 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Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.56971875,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.66659375,"end":30.844718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.43534375,"end":33.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.52784375,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.32471875,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.55221875,"end":40.868468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.729093750000004,"end":45.525968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.90596875,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.80034375,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.00596875,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.98846875,"end":56.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.34221875,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.82659375,"end":114.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.94971875,"end":121.75034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.35346875,"end":126.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.45471875000001,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.91846875,"end":135.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.96784375000001,"end":155.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.61409375000002,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.65471875,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.08096875,"end":194.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.43534375000002,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.05971875,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.14409375000002,"end":194.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.26221875000002,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.69659375,"end":199.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.10971875,"end":198.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.20659375000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.96534375000002,"end":205.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.88909375,"end":214.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.41971875000002,"end":216.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.17034375,"end":219.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.68034375000002,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.16534375,"end":237.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.55971875,"end":234.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.07846875,"end":270.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.43721875,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.74909375000004,"end":265.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.95534375,"end":268.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.59221875000003,"end":281.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.26971875000004,"end":297.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.98534375,"end":292.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.92596875000004,"end":294.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.52909375,"end":325.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.58409375,"end":322.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.44034375,"end":334.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.70159375000003,"end":327.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.76784375,"end":342.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.75846875,"end":340.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.91846875000005,"end":363.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.57346875,"end":367.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.57721875000004,"end":380.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.39534375000005,"end":368.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.99659375000005,"end":392.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.96096875,"end":400.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.96409375,"end":444.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.04159375,"end":490.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.50284375,"end":525.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.79284375,"end":568.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.9309687500001,"end":533.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.2678437500001,"end":536.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.3640937499999,"end":568.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.38096875,"end":585.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.6784687500001,"end":582.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.01159375,"end":603.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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﹏或是說發生跟家庭有很大糾紛﹏這些重大的事情還要跟部的來做回報﹏那我們協助來處理﹏那我們現在的重點就是在理營宣教﹏我們在理營宣教的時候會跟所有的官兵弟兄講清楚哪些可以做﹏沒關係,因為我們現在只是提出來就是說當你在修正一個"},{"start":242.21,"end":242.89,"text":"所以跟委員報告是"},{"start":270.3,"end":285.815,"text":"很簡單跟委員報告就是你宣教我們一定要宣教只要幹部宣教了我們就不會做連做相關的處分那接下來他就是自主管理的部分以上報告好就這個部分我們希望他都是有一併的一些考量因為我們"},{"start":286.616,"end":308.297,"text":"部長,因為我們現在還是有刺刀啦,那你刺刀術你不訓練,那總是像其他國外,它還有一些戰鬥,一些相關的,比較先進的。跟委員報告,我一再的強調傳統的刺槍術跟近戰的格鬥,這兩個是不同的,也就是說我們要去除的是表演性質的刺槍術。"},{"start":310.219,"end":320.165,"text":" ﹏現在有包括槍械﹏包括身上所配的刺刀﹏包括隨手可得的任何武器﹏包括跟他進行搏擊﹏這個都屬於近戰格鬥的項目﹏這個不如我們都要維持﹏還是會維持﹏因為其實大家聽到﹏"},{"start":327.97,"end":338.456,"text":"議員說出來的時候大家都會覺得說只講了前半段後半段沒了不然還以為刺刀要拿來消水因為我一直一直在強調說你傳統的刺相術就在那邊這個我們都當過兵我們都知道傳統的這個就這個部分我們當然還是希望他還是要有一個完整的因為畢竟我們現在整個政策還有現在國家的大環境其實是"},{"start":352.183,"end":352.323,"text":"有說我們在對美採購的"},{"start":382.005,"end":400.435,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":401.058,"end":405.86,"text":"其實我們所有的延宕並不是像剛剛講的說第一封的發架書因為有很多包括我們在美國國防新聞週刊還有華爾街日報的報導裡面其實都很清楚的寫到台灣軍方向美國下單採購的武器裝備面臨延遲交貨的狀況這個美方其實他們當時也講過而且包括AIT的處長在最後一次在台的"},{"start":428.571,"end":434.039,"text":"在台灣的記者會也提到因為我們不管是刺針飛彈、魚叉飛彈、重型魚雷、海馬斯、高機動多管火箭系統等等其實它那時候高達220億美元都是延遲的所以其實大概"},{"start":445.394,"end":448.855,"text":"如果以目前為止,它應該算時間更長了你不能因為把它的期程往後延比如說魚叉飛彈那時候用戰備急需在編預算的時候告訴大家說因為我們急需可是它從5年變成10年那你10年就變成它沒有延宕的意思嗎?"},{"start":466.9,"end":489.257,"text":"他現在交貨的那個就沒有延宕的意思嗎所以美國的國政軍界智庫都承認對台軍售都有延宕我們希望在國會的時候是給大家更正確的訊息因為他不只3案而且我們對美軍售也不只18案少說光從預算書翻開至少25案以上"},{"start":490.88,"end":508.308,"text":"跟委員報告簡單報告一下就是說智慧國衛的程序完之後那大家都希望盡快的拿到武器可是就這方面我們確實是看到它軍售的交貨期程明顯的拉長所以才所有的這個國會議員或者是媒體跟智庫都會把這種現象視為延宕"},{"start":510.569,"end":523.724,"text":"但是呢我們最後拿到這個第一版的發價書的時候他確實就我們原來預期的一件案的整歸數是有落差所以大家都會印象上會覺得說那他的第一版的發價書部長"},{"start":525.526,"end":535.274,"text":"因為我們在編預算的時候他已經把期程寫出來了所以我們是按我們自己的預算上面下去看的那這個部分對我們來說它就是延宕比如說你現在說兵凶戰危很快可能會發生什麼樣的狀況你從5年延到10年你從3年延到8年其實對我們來說都是延宕而且到目前為止連一個都還沒有到手"},{"start":548.704,"end":554.491,"text":"所以因為美國也很清楚的講到說因為俄烏戰爭因為疫情的關係所以他延宕這個理由其實我們是可以接受可是對我們來說對我們的國防安全影響甚具這個部分應該要據理力爭而不是他說什麼就什麼而且我們在這裡還幫他粉飾說我們延宕的只有三案"},{"start":568.687,"end":583.609,"text":"我沒有幫他吻事但是委員的指教是對的我們一定要跟他據理力爭就是說那個發家書跟他智慧國會那最後我們整歸師的部分要跟這個發家書的這個期程不能夠落差太大這一點我們要"},{"start":583.869,"end":603.685,"text":"市長,因為我們希望給我們看的報告是正確的,而不是說用其他的方式去做一些轉換。因為時間的關係,我就一點點跟主席接一些時間,因為目前站在部長旁邊的這一位很快應該7月份想要去接中科院的院長,是不是?媒體已經有報導了。"},{"start":613.509,"end":637.239,"text":"應該是因為今天的報告裡面就是說中科院在張院長的帶領之下尤其我們的蔡前總統其實也一直稱讚說我們中科院不管在武器裝備在很多的研發不管在各方面的一個計畫進程都非常的好而且甚至還超前那既然這麼好為什麼他第二任的任期還有一年半就要把他換掉"},{"start":638.684,"end":652.486,"text":"跟委員報告我想我非常非常的肯定張院長的過去的相關的這個作為跟努力那現在我想他還會我們還會借重他所以我們會"},{"start":654.508,"end":669.473,"text":"拜訪他到這個：他應該有在有的位置在中科院裏面：部長你好像不容易在這裡講清楚只是因為我覺得說報告跟你在用的狀況還有未來：他還是會被我們所重用未來其實還有很多"},{"start":670.513,"end":682.646,"text":"我們希望中科院存在的目的還有價值還特別給他法人化很重要的一個因素是因為他不管是研發人才還有核心技術都可以整合延續當時我們的飛彈的經驗就是這樣來的"},{"start":686.049,"end":686.469,"text":"我高度的期待張院長繼續在中科院幫忙我們"},{"start":707.11,"end":707.471,"text":"接下來進行詢答委員徐巧欣委員"}]}},{"id":"154054","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154054","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b92e8380b0893aa1e62afafc43ba26a35056824d40b1933d675f30caff4e49f2b215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:59:12 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C/D Block70等三項採購有延宕，甚至海馬斯火箭和標槍飛彈兩項提前交運，對於這樣一個延宕，你能不能就這幾項來說明呢？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我之前應媒體詢問的時候有回答，我們都是依照第一版的發價書所訂的期程來決定它延宕與否，也許在之前整規書的時候，我們訂的時程會比較短，但事實上，到了美軍、美方給我們第一版的發價書，它的時程可能拉得比較長，這可能涉及到它軍工產業的量能還有等等的這些狀況，但是我們原則上延宕與否，或者進度正常與否，就是按照它發給我們的發價書來做決定，所以我們是針對發價書所訂的期程來決定它延宕與否，有些期程確實拉得比較長，所以才會提到現在按照發價書若屬延宕的話，大概就有三個，一個就是我剛剛講的拖式2B的飛彈，然後F-16新機再加上AGM-154，其他的部分按照發價書是沒有延宕的，但是大家都會一直覺得好像期程很長，這是因為我們在開始做整規書的時候，我們原來希望籌獲的時間短一點，但後來它給我們發價書時間太長了，這可能要跟委員說明一下。"],["黃委員仁：根據相關資料，對臺軍售武器的延宕交貨總共有19筆，金額大概220億美元，會拖到2027年不等。另外，今年5月徐衍璞副部長也曾就美國對臺軍售延宕，累積金額達到190億美元做出回應，表示臺美這樣一個問題是相當的重視，但是你在立法院總質詢的時候，你說這是正常的，上週你自己說，目前交貨延宕金額約為190億美元，結果給立法院的報告突然表示一切正常，到底怎麼一回事？你來回答一下，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想我並沒有說一切正常，而且就剛剛我跟委員報告的，確實是有三項延宕的事實，我剛剛已經解釋，就是我們都是以第一版的發價書，後來即使發價書修改，時程把它拉長的話，我們還是把它列為延宕。"],["黃委員仁：所以我給你機會表示啊！你在總質詢的時候說，你回答的跟徐衍璞……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，我在總質詢的時候，還有到現在為止，我講的都是一致的，都是一致的，跟委員報告，如果有詳細的部分，我們會再跟委員做一個說明，謝謝。"],["黃委員仁：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員。接下來有請馬文君委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra 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簡短來報 這個好 這個這是我們最重要 謝謝委員關切當然第一個 我們金融人一定要合乎合法 這合法 那我們也考量到115年結束之後怎麼辦 所以說我們用定期契約來招 就是怕以後工作減少的時候 這個人員維持是很困難 但是我們現在就有個配套措施"},{"start":253.891,"end":278.092,"text":"我們這些表現好的定期人員我們有幾個方案第一個只要考機要夾等然後必須在三分之一我們會配合各年度像中科院一年大概介齡退伍的是250到300人左右我們就利用這個差額來依我們的實際狀況來做個彈性的禁用所以是第一個第二個我們也鼓勵他們能夠在招考"},{"start":278.632,"end":279.072,"text":"拜託國防部部長"},{"start":306.823,"end":323.948,"text":"對於美國對台軍售交付的情況你對進度滿意嗎?第二個是國防部提交的立法院的報告指出目前進行中的對美重大軍購案中只有托式飛彈"},{"start":325.729,"end":340.561,"text":"還有F-16V、F-16CD還有布拉格的拐動採購三項的延宕甚至海馬式火箭和標槍飛彈兩項提前交運那對於這樣的一個延宕那你能不能舉例這幾項"},{"start":349.62,"end":375.208,"text":"跟委員報告我之前有在媒體詢問的時候有回答就是說我們都是依照這個第一版的發價書所定的這個期程來決定它原諒與否那也許在之前的這個整歸書的時候我們也許定的時程會比較短但事實上到了美軍給我們美方給我們這個第一版的發價書它的時程可能拉得比較長"},{"start":376.128,"end":388.863,"text":"這可能涉及到他軍工產業的量能還有等等這些狀況但是我們就是原則上延宕與否或者進度正常與否就是按照他發給我們的發架書我們來做那所以我們是針對發架書"},{"start":391.586,"end":404.475,"text":"發價書所定的期程來決定它延宕與否那有些期程確實拉了比較長那所以才會提到說現在按照發價書延宕的話大概就三個一個就是剛剛講的托斯2V的飛彈然後"},{"start":406.036,"end":406.416,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":426.561,"end":454.137,"text":"根據資料裡面對台的台售武器的延宕交貨總共有19筆金額大概220億美元那甚至拖到2027甚至不等那另外就是今年的5月我們習元甫這個習元甫副部長也曾說就美國對台金售"},{"start":455.136,"end":483.85,"text":"嚴當累積金額達到190億美元作出回應表示臺美的這樣的一個問題是相當的重視但是在你在立法院總執行的時候你說這個是正常的正常什麼是在上週自己說目前交貨嚴當金額約為190億美元結果給立法院的報告突然表示一切正常"},{"start":484.35,"end":504.822,"text":"到底怎麼一回事你來回答一下好不好跟委員報告我想沒有說以前剛我跟委員報告的就是確實是有三項的延宕的這個事實我剛已經解釋就是我們都是以第一版的發家書那後來即使發家書我們還時常把它拉的話我們還是把它列為延宕"},{"start":505.462,"end":526.308,"text":"所以我給你機會表示啊你在總諮詢的時候你達到的跟這個喜鹽埔沒有我在總諮詢也是我應該講的都是到現在為止都是一致的跟委員報告希望委員我們如果有詳細的我們再跟委員做一個說明謝謝"},{"start":531.065,"end":534.338,"text":"謝謝黃仁委員那接下來有請馬文君委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154053","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154053","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b926bd6d34562497afbafafc43ba26a35056824d40b1933d67586617f26213d19805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:50:36 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09:59:02","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-17","start_time":"2024-06-17T09:50:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T09:59:02+08:00","duration":506,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":245,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時50分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長早，今天聽取了有關特別預算的執行經過，我針對裡面一些部分提出建言、提供參考，有請中科院院長。","立法院在110年制定的海空戰力提升計畫採購特別條例，在111年到115年要完成，這裡面的項目有特別提到海軍高效能艦艇工進延宕。院長，海軍STIR雷達的歷史淵源是從當初荷蘭的STIR雷達併到法國的公司，由法國公司再到美國登記，現在由美國的公司拿到合約，再交給子公司，結果他的量能產製不足所以延宕，現階段一到六都已經交了，我們特別拿這個做為案例，在第二階段七到十二要特別注意，部長在這個採購合約是專家，我們當初簽這個約，簽約的對象絕對不是子公司嘛，對不對？但是他又主合約公司給子公司，所以合約裡面的proviso附加條款要說明，如果這個不是不可抗力的因素，而是當初錯估生產製造期程的產量、動線上子公司不能達標；因此，我們在採購上要保護我們的權益，理論上罰則要offset抵消……第二個，比方講七到十二裡面要抵消一部分權益時要把它加進去，這個現象到第二期的七到十二 STIR雷達的交貨不能夠再產生延宕，一方面是保障我們，前面你揹的責任是因為工程延宕，雖然案子已經交了，如果照我們合約裡面的項次，該罰他還是要罰他，這個特別提醒注意。"],["張院長忠誠：對，是的。"],["陳委員永康：第二個，本案現在進入第3年了，以5年的期程，因為軍售、商售快速獲得，我們現在除了裝備的獲得也面臨另外一個挑戰，請部長注意，國軍的編現比80%，這是一般概念，很多單位是低於這個，所有新武器、新裝備，尤其是海巡現在也強調他們是第二海軍，他們也要在巡防艦上加裝海軍的武器，由海軍籌購，暫時增加員額，海軍有沒有額外的員額？平常海軍跟海巡的橫向協調，就是跨部會協商時，裡面的準則教範會面臨一個很大的挑戰。","舊裝備的更替，面臨戰術概念的更新、後勤維保的複雜，相對在裝備操作手冊、準則教範、維保技令都在編修的情況下非常的繁瑣，國軍囿於人力受限，參加這些工作會產生惡性循環，所以人員的招募是另外一個重點，也就是說人力員額獲得期程、裝備的預算及裝備的性能，這三個關係要同步的控管，而不是管期程就不管員額，裝備拿到了就不在乎前面的罰則、要不要罰他，這三個要同步重視。","另外，我特別提到共同圖像（COP），由於海巡要加裝飛彈，需要派海軍的人上去，海巡艦長並沒有參與過我們國軍的準則教範甚至指參訓練，在聯合作戰構想時，如果沒有一個共同圖像，大家的判斷會產生錯誤，也就是作戰過程中，千軍萬馬在一個圖上出現，如果海巡的人不進駐我們的聯演中心，也就是就作戰中心受訓，那又沒有共同圖像，回頭請示是不同比例的圖，目標選定產生時間差，那聯合作戰的效益就不會發揮。","此外，我今天看到中科院的報告，我們的拌藥產量已經進步了，這數字就不念了，但還有一個5%到16%的落差。我提醒一下，尤其是拌藥製程中，我曉得院長也很重視安全，我們的風險控管risk management更重要，而不是傷後damage control，如何能夠消除人員的損傷，員工的安全要幫他特別保險，這個是非常重要的，尤其是在火炸藥攪拌的過程中，特別提醒注意。","鳳展專案當然希望在2026年能夠順利完成，因為目前空軍飛行員的座艙比短時間還沒有辦法提升，我們一方面培訓新飛行員的量要加大，二方面現在轉型過來的飛行員，可能從原來的機種換裝過來，這個速度要加快。我請問一下參謀長，您認為一個F-16V的飛行員，他的基礎飛行時數要多少小時，你才認為他是一個合格的飛行員？"],["曹參謀長進平：委員好，我是空軍參謀長曹進平，委員提到F-16V飛行員訓練的問題，其實我們沒有一個確實的、具體的數字來做規範，但以一般訓練來講，大概完成三個階段的訓練就可以達到我們戰力的需求，後續會在他的飛行生涯裡持續精進他的戰術技能。"],["陳委員永康：我們希望您這邊幫空軍整體規劃座艙比，我不談數字，但必須要提升……"],["曹參謀長進平：是。"],["陳委員永康：因為這個負荷太重，再加上有一部分飛行員的流失，所以這是一個非常重要的專案，我們全力配合也支持，但本席站在國防委員會的角色立場來看，我們不只是協助建言，在很多執行過程中，力道不夠集中或是時程進度、水平落後時，要作為督導。","最後，我們提出一個國家安全戰略，國家安全戰略的終極目標是和平避戰，方法是強軍備戰，手段是能戰止戰，這就是目的、方法、手段，我希望國防部不要把這三個名詞混淆，我們現在在推動國家安全戰略，希望明確訂定，後面在其他會議中，我們再提出建言，這邊提出建議給部長參考。以上，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員，剛剛委員所指教的，我們會後會一一再跟委員說明，譬如說F-16V的座艙比，我聽過他們報告兩次了，應該都有積極的準備當中，謝謝委員指教，我們會後會一一再跟委員做充分的解釋。"],["陳委員永康：另外請教中科院，有關STIR雷達的下一個階段，也就是七到十二的合約，對於美國製造公司的子公司，那一段一定要釐清。"],["張院長忠誠：我們會納入要求。"],["陳委員永康：對，要要求，因為這對我們是一種保障。"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員、謝謝部長。","接下來有請黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.15721875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.03471875,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.84471875,"end":3.8615937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":4.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.708468750000002,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.805343750000002,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.927218750000002,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.13596875,"end":33.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.73034375,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.518468750000004,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.80534375,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.462218750000005,"end":51.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.330968750000004,"end":52.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.119718750000004,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.95909375,"end":55.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.359718750000006,"end":57.017843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.38909375,"end":59.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.66721875,"end":62.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.384093750000005,"end":64.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.74659375,"end":69.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.12971875000001,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.01971875000001,"end":79.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.41096875000001,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.59534375000001,"end":112.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.75596875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.62846875000001,"end":125.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.61471875000001,"end":137.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.55409375000002,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.47346875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.36784375000002,"end":143.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.46409375000002,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.63971875000001,"end":155.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.59721875,"end":161.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.96346875,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.30284375000002,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.42909375000002,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.72409375,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.20034375,"end":186.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.52909375000002,"end":188.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.21659375000002,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.58221875,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.58596875,"end":205.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.63596875000002,"end":210.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.10346875000002,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.85409375,"end":214.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.61346875,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.45721875,"end":216.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.19534375,"end":231.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.03596875000002,"end":238.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.51659375000003,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.61721875,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.08096875,"end":248.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.75159375,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.54034375,"end":251.48534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.24471875,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.51846875,"end":259.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.10846875000004,"end":264.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.90096875,"end":267.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.19159375000004,"end":270.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.00971875,"end":273.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.54096875,"end":277.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.60346875,"end":284.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.30721875,"end":286.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.88909375000003,"end":294.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.84971875,"end":307.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start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﹝廢話﹞"},{"start":87.677,"end":88.177,"text":" ８提供答案８"},{"start":112.947,"end":113.727,"text":"二、邀請國防部報告．"},{"start":139.491,"end":152.526,"text":" ﹖第二﹖本案進入第三年﹖五年的期爭﹖因為軍售、商售快速獲得﹖我們現在除了裝備的獲得﹖面臨的另外一個挑戰﹖也請部長注意國軍的邊線比80%﹖這是"},{"start":156.653,"end":180.662,"text":"一般概念很多單位是低於這個所以新武器新裝備尤其是海巡現在他也強調他是第二海軍他也要在船上的他的這個巡防艦上加裝這個海軍的武器由海軍籌購暫時加這個員額海軍有沒有額外的員額來那平常海軍跟海巡的橫向協調就是掛舖會協商的時候"},{"start":185.196,"end":213.456,"text":" ﹝廢話﹞"},{"start":213.922,"end":214.943,"text":"另外：另外我們"},{"start":247.106,"end":269.898,"text":"我特別提到就是我們講的共同圖像就是COP那麼由於海巡要加裝飛彈那麼他要海軍的人派上去那海巡的艦長並沒有參與過我們的國軍的準則教範甚至只參的訓練那在這個跟聯合作戰構想的時候如果沒有一個共同圖像"},{"start":271.052,"end":271.072,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":296.9,"end":324.459,"text":"另外中科院本身我看到今天的報告就是說我們的半藥產量已經進步了這數字就不念了但是還有一個5%到16%的落差我提醒因為這個尤其是半藥這個製程中間我曉得這個院長也很重視安全我們的風險控管Risk Management更重要而不是傷後Damage Control我如何能夠消除人員的損傷"},{"start":325.95,"end":326.37,"text":"議員：陳永康議員：陳永康議員：陳永康"},{"start":337.332,"end":337.452,"text":"議員：陳永康議員"},{"start":363.23,"end":390.16,"text":"16V的飛行員他的基礎飛行時數要多少小時你才認為他是一個合格的委員好我是空軍參謀長曹敬平委員提到這F16飛行員訓練的問題其實我們沒有一個確實的具體的數字來做規範但一般的訓練來講他大概完成我們三個階段的訓練就可以達到我們的戰力的需求那後續會在他飛行生涯裡面持續的精進他的戰術技能"},{"start":391.944,"end":420.438,"text":"我們希望您這邊幫空軍整體規劃我們的座艙比我不談數字必須要提升因為這個負荷太重再加上一部分飛行員的流失所以這是一個非常重要的專案我們是全力配合也支持但我本席站在國防委員會角色的立場來看我們不只是協度建言當然在很多執行過程中力道不夠集中或者是還有時程"},{"start":421.539,"end":421.82,"text":"議員：陳永康議員"},{"start":428.715,"end":454.975,"text":"國家安全戰略國家安全戰略的終極目標是和平必戰我們的方法是強軍備戰手段是能戰止戰就是目的、方法、手段我希望國防部不要把這三個名詞混淆我們現在在推動國家安全戰略希望明確定定那麼後面在其他的這個會議中間我們再提出建言這邊提出的建議給部長做參考以上謝謝"},{"start":456.352,"end":475.908,"text":"好,謝謝委員。剛剛委員所指教的我們會後會一一再跟委員做說明。像比如說F16的座長筆的這個部分,我也聽過他們大概兩次的報告了。應該都有在積極的準備當中這樣子。那謝謝委員。我想我們會後會一一再跟委員做一個充分的解釋這樣子。"},{"start":476.84,"end":477.88,"text":"謝謝陳永康委員 謝謝部長接下來有請黃仁委員"}]}},{"id":"154052","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154052","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b92ed4ec2324f0996b8afafc43ba26a35056824d40b1933d67507c68077156111bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:41:58 - 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Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":2.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.31846875,"end":74.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.368468750000005,"end":55.094093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.45159375,"end":62.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.10784375,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.86721875,"end":110.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.74784375,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.33409375000001,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.33096875,"end":138.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.22034375,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.91534375,"end":161.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.64284375,"end":179.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.85096875000002,"end":182.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.97284375,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.75284375,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.31971875000002,"end":220.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.97971875000002,"end":224.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.41409375,"end":223.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.90721875000003,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.85221875000002,"end":254.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.59034375000002,"end":255.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.53534375,"end":366.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.97784375000003,"end":405.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.27971875000003,"end":406.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.36409375000005,"end":409.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.77284375000005,"end":452.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.71971875,"end":473.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.37471875000006,"end":493.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.89471875000004,"end":494.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.58659375,"end":495.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.63284375,"end":496.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.41284375000004,"end":503.96909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":1.831,"text":"請顧部長來,部長請這臨委很好"},{"start":9.878,"end":13.459,"text":"部長早安喔,賴清德總統身為我們的這個三軍統帥那麼他在這個陸關的百年校慶當中特別點到就是要分清楚中華民國跟中華人民共和國這是互不隸屬國軍捍衛中華民國的決心絕對是必須要貫徹的這個部分本席予以非常大的肯定"},{"start":32.507,"end":48.603,"text":"但是他後面講到絕不接受首戰及終戰這樣的一個說法馬上就招到了馬英九辦公室的批評但是本席特別去找了一下首戰及終戰到底是從哪裡出來的不知道部長你知道首戰及終戰這句話是從哪裡出來的嗎?"},{"start":50.685,"end":74.658,"text":"我只知道就是說所戰及中戰是一種投降主義也就是說認為一開始打仗那我們就要想定這個可能的中戰那我就覺得我們是防衛作戰我們要有寸土必爭的決心那強化自我防衛能力然後以逐步削弱這個共軍侵台的這些能力然後最後的讓他沒有辦法完成侵台的這個目標好"},{"start":75.518,"end":81.262,"text":"那麼本席其實是比較只有媒體的反應來講那部長當然是講出了首戰集中戰它的到底它的內容是什麼但是呢我現在要來講的是既然我們在國會詢答當中不能夠隨意扯謊那我就找出到底真相在哪裡首戰集中戰到底是哪裡來的現在馬辦是說首戰集中戰是蔡英文總統時期的國防政策的報告我同意"},{"start":102.995,"end":131.089,"text":"但是這是我方的策略嗎?我不同意。其實我個人要拿出真相基本上在2018年中共政軍發展評估報告當中確實這是我們國防安全研究院的報告但是在第56頁當中他所寫出來的是中國強調首戰集中戰讓美軍衛到戰事已定言下之意"},{"start":132.352,"end":161.021,"text":"部長這裡頭寫的雖然是2018年還沒上任所以這份報告寫的首戰集中戰應該是中國也就是解放軍的策略對吧所以當今天現在馬辦執行長蕭旭辰說這是賴總統指責蔡英文總統時期的投降主義嗎跨著剛剛您所說的說法這是不是丟割倒菜的喔是不是一個偷換概念又或者是因為這上面是"},{"start":161.821,"end":168.407,"text":"反體字他們看不懂,他們只看得懂簡體字嗎?不然為什麼明明白白寫著這是中國強調首戰集中戰但他現在卻說這是蔡英文總統時期的研究報告所以認為蔡英文總統是所謂蔡規賴不遂你覺得這樣說法合理嗎?"},{"start":180.775,"end":202.742,"text":"跟委員報告所戰即終戰這應該是中共主觀的一個期待一廂情願的一個想法所以這個這樣子的一個想法跟我們寸土匕首的這樣子的一個決心我想不一樣那國防院的報告引述的應該是共軍他們"},{"start":204.623,"end":208.768,"text":"他們預期想要達到的目標或是對台的軍事策略,是嗎?"},{"start":225.905,"end":254.222,"text":"好,所以我希望就是說在這個部分部長能夠就像您剛剛所講的真、正確的傳達出來因為畢竟喔現在很容易有歐聯制度然後我們沒有講過的話塞到我們嘴巴裡面就變成好像是我們的報告提出了我們的想法不是這是指中國他們對於台灣策略的想定而不是中華民國國防部是吧"},{"start":256.083,"end":275.335,"text":"接下來呢當然部長上任以來做了很多的軍務革新我特別也跟我的辦公室我們整理了一下包括取消傳統刺槍術廢除軍官休假回報然後官士兵出國就可以不用跟團包括安全檢核管制方式以及媒體到這兩天都還在講的這個免踢正步只要齊步就好了"},{"start":279.278,"end":285.863,"text":" ﹏然後作戰戰術回歸參謀長﹏那麼政府主觀留職規定恢復常態我相信這個都是美意因為我們希望所謂形式化的管理可以免就像您所說的我們用檢法的方式但是現在很怕就是上有政策下有對策本席呢最近接到了一些不少的這個抱怨或者是說在網路上找到一些大家所謂的上的上面的政策"},{"start":307.079,"end":315.562,"text":"每議但是執行到下端之後是不是到基層之後就出現了其他的對策好像變成只改了名字但是該做的還是不能少包括定期回報就變成主動回報或者是回報群組就改一個名字"},{"start":325.465,"end":333.731,"text":" ﹏或是以互助回報組就會雨後春筍﹏因為時間有限我想問一下就是其實在我們的國軍、官軍、士官、士兵、休假、請假規則或是我們的國軍軍紀維護實施要責裡面其實都沒有所謂要定期回報或者是主動回報這樣的一個項目其實只是都是一些安全提醒那我希望部長可不可以在這裡我們真的明確的給他講一下不要說今天部長的美意"},{"start":355.385,"end":383.978,"text":"打了折然後變成是換了個名義然後讓基層的士官還是覺得說基層的弟兄覺得說哎呀感覺上美意但是我無福消受啊部長跟委員報告我也聽到有一些反應那我因此我有在我們的內部會議裡面也再次的要求那所以在6月6號人事通報令的另一班全軍具體執行的時候呢"},{"start":384.598,"end":404.609,"text":"就是說這個目前的執行的狀況已經納入內部管理督導這個時機來做驗證也就是說他不要再加任何額外其他的規定來做一個限制那希望就是說但是你如果發生什麼事情當然要回報這個"},{"start":406.385,"end":414.11,"text":"好,所以言下之意就是出事了要講一下是這樣子嗎?然後但是一切平安就沒消息就是好消息可以有辦法這樣嗎?還是說現在你所看到的這個主動回報啦或是回報群組啦該怎麼樣來處理或是該怎麼樣來進行有效的管理因為我覺得"},{"start":427.259,"end":427.92,"text":"你怎麼看部長?"},{"start":453.483,"end":466.396,"text":"我想我們就不要再一定要減低這個基層官兵的負荷那我在這裡面要求就是說希望不要再額外的律定其他的規定來做限制那只有說"},{"start":468.138,"end":468.598,"text":"是這個意思嗎?是是好,謝謝好,謝謝"},{"start":499.592,"end":503.125,"text":"好,謝謝林楚茵委員,謝謝部長接下來有請陳永康委員,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154051","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154051","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b925462b09ca589295aafafc43ba26a3505ac325f7d216cff332c0accd11298d9845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:31:35 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09:41:47","影片長度":"00:10:12","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-17","start_time":"2024-06-17T09:31:35+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-17T09:41:47+08:00","duration":612,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":28,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-28"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":114,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時31分）謝謝主席，麻煩顧立雄部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。有關每個年度要報告的海空戰力提升計畫裡面，根據你們提列的報告，你們要來報告預算條例，請主計長也上來，也要把執行成效報告進來，主計長來。"],["顧部長立雄：主計局。"],["王委員定宇：待會這個部分的數據要請教一下，第一個，主計長邊走邊聽我問，我們這一個特別預算條例裡面所列的預算跟我們年度的總預算其實都要納入國家舉債上限，是這樣子嗎？"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：它沒辦法迴避嘛？"],["謝局長其賢：是的。"],["王委員定宇：對，就是我們的舉債上限沒辦法迴避，還是在國家整個財務控管下，它要經過立法院同意，那要不要經過審計？"],["謝局長其賢：要。"],["王委員定宇：也要經過審計。"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：然後每一年還是要報告進度跟成效嘛？"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：事實上，特別預算在我們的預算法裡面其實跟總預算一樣，它就是一個法定的編列預算方式，大概用於跨年度或者比較重要的科目，它沒辦法在年度預算裡面編列才來執行。所以我建議主計單位對於特別預算的法源，它的預算金額從來就不能成為小金庫、從來也不能迴避監督，它都要納入舉債上限計算，最後審計也要看、年度報告也要看、決算也是要看嘛，所以跟總預算應該都一樣吧？"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為用到特別預算，除了天災、振興、疫情以外，其實未來最常用到的應該都是國防部，所以我建議主計部分說清楚。"],["謝局長其賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：接下來我請教部長，這一次提出的執行成效報告總共8類10項，其中有一個是說除了高效能艦艇儎臺，這個大概講的就是沱江啦，除高效能艦艇儎臺外，執行成效達到94%，彈體取得已經到100%，所以第一個問題是，高效能艦艇現在的進度到底怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：高效能艦艇……"],["王委員定宇：因為你上面沒有單獨把它列出來，它到底進度達到百分之多少？"],["顧部長立雄：據我瞭解，5艘都已經交付了。"],["王委員定宇：都交付了嘛，所以它現在的進度是多少？你報告沒有這個數據，你上面只寫除儎臺外的執行成效94%，那高效能儎臺已經解決了嗎？我們現在是要6艘嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：對，他的報告我第一次看的時候也是有一點那個，但是他的意思應該是，如果算到去年年底是百分之九十四點多，但是到今年的3月，全部6艘都已經交艦，就是1艘原型加5艘全部都交艦了。"],["王委員定宇：那你這個報告是最近交進來的，為什麼還在寫去年的94%？對麥克風回答，你懂我意思嗎？那段文字我看不懂啦！"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告一下，因為我們就是以112年的執行成效，因為標題是112。"],["王委員定宇：所以現在報告的是112年會計年度裡面的執行成效？"],["張院長忠誠：對，確實……"],["王委員定宇：那這樣本席可以接受，就是到去年底儎臺可能有一些設備還沒辦法取得，所以你把它先扣除的執行成效是94%，但是在今年3月都開始追上進度了。"],["張院長忠誠：已經全部……"],["王委員定宇：這樣詮釋是對的？"],["張院長忠誠：是的。"],["王委員定宇：另外，我們希望透過這個促進我們國內的經濟嘛，釋商預計498.5億，你們報告裡面說執行成效是408.3億、成效是81.9%，其實落差20%左右還蠻大的，這個釋商為什麼有兩成無法釋出？是我們國內廠商沒有意願、技術不足，還是有什麼樣的困難？"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，當初我們在預估釋商金額的時候，是以公告招標的錢來算，也就是以我們的預算來算，但是經過整個……我現在寫的是……"],["王委員定宇：裡面八十多億沒有釋商耶！"],["張院長忠誠：是決標價！前面是用公告的金額來算。"],["王委員定宇：所以項目上是不是全部釋商了？"],["張院長忠誠：全部釋商！"],["王委員定宇：但是因為你用招標的，所以有的85折、有的82折……"],["張院長忠誠：沒錯、沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：所以金額就沒有達到那邊。"],["張院長忠誠：對！但事實上我的公告金額是501億。"],["王委員定宇：那我會建議報告可以寫詳盡一點，就是你釋商的科項目全部都釋商完成，但因為招標金額不可能百分之百一樣嘛，因為你們不是全部都最有利標，有的是價格標，那價格標打折下來就剩下81.9%。"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以你們原來預估的價格？"],["張院長忠誠：是501。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是說你們預估的價格偏高。"],["張院長忠誠：報告委員，因為當初報的就是用公告……"],["王委員定宇：不是，你們通常會報比較高，他們來標的時候還打了8折。"],["張院長忠誠：另外再跟委員報告，為什麼還有一些差距？因為海空戰力提升以後，中科院就回歸了……"],["王委員定宇：院長，還有沒有項目沒有釋商？"],["張院長忠誠：目前就是按照進度，現在……"],["王委員定宇：不！你剛才的回答會讓我誤以為全部的項目都釋商了，只是招標額度打折而已啊，有沒有項目沒有釋商？"],["張院長忠誠：沒有，幾乎該採購都採購了。"],["王委員定宇：我不要幾乎這種答案，有沒有項目還沒有釋商？"],["張院長忠誠：沒有！該做的……"],["王委員定宇：全部都釋商了？"],["張院長忠誠：對，113（今）年度還是有釋商的金額……"],["王委員定宇：當然，我們現在講去年度的嘛。"],["張院長忠誠：對，去年度全部都釋商了。"],["王委員定宇：我要問有關這個報告的最後一個問題就是，我們因應這一個海空戰力提升，不管是雄風、各類彈體的製造、儎臺的製造，產線的產能有提升吧？"],["張院長忠誠：有。"],["王委員定宇：產線的產能包含人員、包含產線的裝備都提升了，我現在請問，如果我們這一個計畫結束之後，有關提升的產能、增加的人力，你們後續打算怎麼辦？"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，在人力方面，因為我們現在是採用不定期契約的方式來進人，就是為了……"],["王委員定宇：你這樣講，現在在中科院上班的員工馬上想到下一個問題是什麼？結束我就結束了耶、我就沒工作了。"],["張院長忠誠：跟委員報告，這些海空戰力提升的員額我們用定契的方式，有3年的、有5年的、有2年的，我們依照法規……"],["王委員定宇：所以你們產能提升，當這個計畫結束了，這些技術工契約到期就不予續約、就沒有了嗎？"],["張院長忠誠：我們有配套措施，這些人我們還有擇優錄用的方式，如果說他表現得不錯。"],["王委員定宇：擇優錄用跟契約到期不續約的百分比多少？"],["張院長忠誠：目前大概三分之一留用。"],["王委員定宇：所以有三分之一可以留用？"],["張院長忠誠：有三分之一。"],["王委員定宇：表現好的可以留用？"],["張院長忠誠：是的。"],["王委員定宇：還是特殊專長可以留用？"],["張院長忠誠：表現好、特殊專長，但是這有評比。"],["王委員定宇：院長，這些東西不能含糊啦！"],["張院長忠誠：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：不能說大概、幾乎、好像可以，你知道這牽涉到你現在帶的人的軍心能不能穩定，接下來我們國防產業是永續性的，本席給你一個具體的建議，你的產能提升不是只有人，還有裝備都提升了，那你這些契約工到期了不續用，那這些提升產能的裝備就閒置在那裡，就像我們以前製造120榴彈砲的東西就封在那邊，機器是會老、會壞的！"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以一方面，是不是要尋求怎麼樣去繼續生產、製造；二方面，對於優秀的技術工，我們民間如果有相關的產業，你們事實上要結合、輔導他去就業，不要讓自己的員工努力了三年、五年，他覺得契約到了大概就沒有明天了，那會產生一些問題喔，這個我一定要提醒中科院。"],["張院長忠誠：謝謝委員指導，會再考量。"],["王委員定宇：這部分……你請回。我回到部長，部長，除了這個海空戰力提升計畫以外，我現在舉一個項目是我們對美採購的拖式飛彈，拖式2B飛彈大概是新型的，過去是線性在拖，有時候碰到海水會有些干擾等等。就我們看到的計畫期程，拖式飛彈2B從2018年起案至今是零籌獲，原因是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：就是它剛開始出來的時候，測評好像有點問題，不過現在這個測評已經過了，所以預計在今年的年底以前會全數交易。"],["王委員定宇：會全數一次交貨嗎？因為已經六、七年了。"],["顧部長立雄：對，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：好像是它生產出來的品質沒有達標啦！"],["顧部長立雄：這個是屬於我們三項重大延宕裡面其中一款，但是現在測評過了之後，應該是在第四季，也就是年底之前應該會全數交易。"],["王委員定宇：它測評沒過是美軍那邊測的？不是我們吧？"],["顧部長立雄：美軍那邊測的。"],["王委員定宇：所以是美國的製造商製造拖式2B出來，美軍做品管把關測評沒有過？通通退貨重來？"],["顧部長立雄：對，美軍測評沒有過，後來再重新改進之後，在年底以前會全數交易。"],["王委員定宇：所以這個案子在今年底應該可以結案，全部都可以取得？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：全部的拖式2B？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：那另外兩個案子呢？"],["顧部長立雄：關於F-16就您所理解的，現在就是要在今年第四季產出2架原型機之後做飛行測試，我們還是要求在2026年年底以前全數交易。"],["王委員定宇：要全數交付。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["王委員定宇：好，相關細節我有空再跟部長請教，因為拖式2B的原因是在那邊的生產，好像品質有瑕疵出了問題，美軍測評沒過，後來重新生產再交付過來，我會建議我們軍方接貨的時候，我們大概QC品管也要做一下、也要看一下，我們自己也要評一下。"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們要拿來……"],["王委員定宇：謝謝部長，我們要拿來測一下，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員、謝謝部長。接下來有請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","林憶君"],"page_start":351,"meetingDate":["2024-06-17"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢；二、邀請國防部報\n告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136301_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":1.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":3.6253437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.320343750000003,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.074718750000002,"end":28.667843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.97159375,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.650343750000005,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.11409375,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.033468750000004,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.53096875,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.15471875,"end":45.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.16721875,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.820968750000006,"end":48.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.17534375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.04346875,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.98409375000001,"end":57.203468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.203468750000006,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.24159375,"end":96.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.50534375000001,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.69846875,"end":115.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.20784375000001,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.55284375000001,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.49221875,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.36096875,"end":130.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.06534375,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.88346875000002,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.53721875000002,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.47346875,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.45221875000001,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.21971875,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.22346875,"end":149.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.71221875,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.81659375,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.11159375,"end":159.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.80159375000002,"end":171.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.15971875000002,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.53034375000001,"end":180.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.72846875000002,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.94346875000002,"end":181.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.99409375000002,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.01096875000002,"end":182.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.48346875000001,"end":190.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.58471875,"end":183.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.55409375000002,"end":199.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.09346875,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.20284375,"end":197.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.03346875000003,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.27346875,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.16346875000002,"end":205.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.33096875,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.92971875,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.24159375000002,"end":220.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.29596875000001,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.96409375000002,"end":254.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.38409375,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.07971875,"end":256.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.61534375,"end":260.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.41659375,"end":286.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.84659375,"end":262.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.79159375,"end":263.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.91784375000003,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.99784375,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.22471875,"end":272.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.31721875,"end":274.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.81409375000004,"end":282.11346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以留用是的還是特殊專長可以留用表現好特殊專長但是他有評比院長這些東西不能含糊不能說大概幾乎好像可以你知道這牽涉到你現在帶的人他的軍心能不能穩定接下來我們國防產業是永續性的本期給你一個具體的建議你產能提升不是只有人你還裝備都提升了那你這些契約工到期了不去用"},{"start":438.18,"end":438.2,"text":"拜訪議員．"},{"start":454.275,"end":474.365,"text":" ﹏二方面我們優秀的技術工我們民間如果有相關的產業你們事實上要結合輔導他去就業不要讓自己的員工努力了三年五年他覺得契約到了我大概就沒有明天了那會產生一些問題這個我一定要提醒工科院是有在考量好這個部分請回我回到部長"},{"start":475.865,"end":496.276,"text":"部長我們除了這個海空戰力提升計畫以外呢我現在舉一個項目是我們對美採購的托式飛彈托式2B飛彈大概是新型的要過去是線性在拖有時候碰到海水會有些干擾等等那就我們看到的計畫其成從2018年起案至今"},{"start":497.745,"end":526.26,"text":"都還是沒有籌獲到任何的就脫勢非但二逼從2018年起案至今是零籌獲原因是什麼就是它剛開始出來的時候測評好像有點問題不過現在這個測評已經過了所以預計在今年的年底以前全數會交易全數一次交過嗎因為已經六、七年了好像是它生產出來的品質沒有達標了"},{"start":527.06,"end":540.358,"text":"這個是屬於我們三項重大延宕的裡面其中一塊但是現在測評過了之後應該是在第四季也就是年底之前應該會全數交易他測評沒過是美軍那邊測的不是我們嗎?"},{"start":542.541,"end":564.107,"text":"所以是美國的製造商托斯2B製造出來,美軍做評判把關,測評沒有過,通通退貨重來。然後後來再重新再改進之後,那現在在年底以前會全數交易。所以這一個案子在今年底應該可以結案,全部都可以取得。是。全部的托斯2B。是。那另外兩個案子呢?"},{"start":565.53,"end":581.207,"text":"另外一個F16那個就您理解了現在就是說要在今年的第10季產出第二架原型機之後做飛行測試那我們還是要求在2026年年底全速交運好 相為細節我有空再跟部長請教"},{"start":581.988,"end":583.388,"text":"謝謝王定宇委員 謝謝部長接下來有請林楚瑩委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}