{"total":{"value":20,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-06-18"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"16020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16020","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd856060655fb1cb222e98944b076ad9f319186e52af124432945155fe44f6a1955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-18T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第16次會議（事由：一、審定本院第11屆第1會期第19次會議議事日程    及人民請願案              二、審定本院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會議事    日程）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-18","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-18T11:33:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T12:16:00+08:00","duration":2556,"影片長度":"00:42:36","委員發言時間":"11:33:24 - 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我們以主法定人數現在開始開會請宣讀上次會議事錄立法院程序委員會第11屆第1會期第15次會議事錄時間中華民國113年6月12日星期三中午12時至12時31分地點紅樓201會議室出席委員張文志文等19人主席吳遠忠縣包括事項一 宣讀本會第11屆第1會期第14次會議事錄決定確定決定事項"},{"start":1732.383,"end":1742.149,"text":"一、審定本院第11屆第1會期第18次會議事程 報告事項及諮詢事項一、國民黨黨團張偉志文提案 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 並列為第二至四案 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 國民黨黨團林遠思明提案 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 原列第21案及增列第4至13案暫緩列案其與均照議程草案及增列報告事項通過對行政院院長施政方針報告繼續諮詢"},{"start":1762.366,"end":1774.471,"text":"二、請願案件一、一請願法第4條系屬應提起訴訟之事項未並受理含附請願人共私案二、一立法院職權刑事法第65條含轉權責機關處理經負並複製請願人共二案宣讀完畢請問請問有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有吼我們意思都確定"},{"start":1783.956,"end":1791.932,"text":"那我們現在在會議開始之前我們請議事人員宣讀一下6月13日的上午9時的這個立法院這個黨團協商的結論"},{"start":1795,"end":1821.814,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論 時間143年6月13日新一四上午9時 地點一場三樓會議事 決定事項各黨團同意定於6月19日新一三及20日新一四召開全院委員會審查行政院所提對立法院職權行使法部分條文及中華民國刑法增訂第五章之一章名及第141條之一條文之附議案審查時 邀請行政院長歷史說明 各日分別由國民黨黨團推派11人 民黨黨團推派11人"},{"start":1824.875,"end":1845.201,"text":"臺灣民眾黨       推派兩人進行詢答 每位委員詢答時間為10分鐘詢答數據一一授權議事處辦理 宜丹起於6月18日星期二中午12時前 宋江議事處會長與時事團放棄二、勝訴復議案定於6月21日星期五上午8號事項處理完畢進行進行投票表決兩案分別為兩張票"},{"start":1846.241,"end":1856.45,"text":"同時投票並由各黨團推派議員擔任投開票監察員其餘相關投票事務工作依例授權依數辦理當任會議不進行施政方針報告諮詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1859.991,"end":1883.908,"text":"好 那我們報告委員會我們今天要討論的有兩項議程草案第一項是依照剛才的這個協商結論定於19日及20日要召開的這個全院委員會的議程那另外一項就是第19次院會的議程所以我們按照這個時間先後順序現在先討論本會期第一次全院委員會的議程現在請宣讀討論事項"},{"start":1885.899,"end":1888.441,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會議事"},{"start":1906.231,"end":1925.917,"text":"討論事項一至二行政院罕為本院三讀通過修正立法院執行新法部分條文增添中華民國新法第五章之一章明記第141條之一條文經嚴異確屬至案男性依請本院附議案三總統府秘書長罕為本院通過修正立法院執行新法部分條文增添中華民國新法"},{"start":1926.397,"end":1944.54,"text":"第5章之一章年級第141條之一條文 私請總統公佈案 經行任意研議 以期確屬至案人行 呈奉總統合格 因請本院復議案 宣讀完畢好 現在請登記委員發言 第一位請陳委員喻真發言"},{"start":1955.109,"end":1977.537,"text":"主席各位同仁 本院中國國民黨立院黨團 針對第11屆第1會期第一次全院委員會議事日程你請照議事日程草案通過 是否有當提請公決提案人中國國民黨立法院黨團 謝謝好 謝謝 接下來請第二位 請省委員博洋發言"},{"start":1987.079,"end":2002.732,"text":"好 那先針對這個全院委員會齁 那這個案由針對第11屆第1會期第1次全院會議程 建議依照議事議程草案通過 是否有當進行公決提案人 沈柏耀 民主 基部黨 立法院黨團那這邊呢 我也再唯再唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯"},{"start":2006.495,"end":2030.442,"text":"時間是113年6月13號星期四的上午9點那第二點提到復議案定於6月21日星期五上午報告事項處理完畢進行記名投票表決兩案分別為兩張票同時投票並由各黨團推派一人擔任投開票監察員其餘相關投票事務工作依例"},{"start":2031.102,"end":2039.429,"text":"授權議事處辦理那當日會議不進行施政方針報告質詢這是當時的這個黨團寫章結論謝謝好我們現在登記委員都已經發言完畢現在進行處理兩位委員的提案提議是相同的所以我們這一併處理就是按照這個"},{"start":2054.517,"end":2076.113,"text":"按照全院委員會的議程草案來通過所以請問對兩位委員的提議有無異議沒有那我們就通過第一會期第一次全院委員會議程通過那接下來我們繼續處理第19次院會的議程草案現在請先宣讀報告事項、執行事項及附議案之處理事項等議程"},{"start":2078.68,"end":2082.203,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議議事正草案"},{"start":2107.504,"end":2107.784,"text":"六、文、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、"},{"start":2127.677,"end":2128.958,"text":"社會福利及衛生環境委員審查 、 、 、 、 、"},{"start":2148.193,"end":2148.533,"text":"勞動基準法"},{"start":2168.979,"end":2192.361,"text":"將內政委員審查 生命法教經濟委員審查 都會員住民權利發展條例將內政委員審查 氣溫 萬靈等據 學分深輔導法教教育基本文化委員審查 民進黨團體一層列八至九委員武力化等據 宗教團體以自然而民意等級不動產處理暫行條例將內政委員審查 救護服務法教受惡福利及衛生環境委員審查 食物委員範圍等據 消防法將內政委員審查11至20"},{"start":2194.202,"end":2194.222,"text":"委員參與 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、"},{"start":2217.623,"end":2224.974,"text":"至於事項附議案自處理事項6月21日對行政院長報告施政方針繼續質詢6月25日宣討完畢現在請登記委員發言首先我們請常委員郁真發言"},{"start":2242.921,"end":2259.469,"text":"主席 各位同仁 本院中國國民黨立法院黨團 針對第11屆第1會期第19次會議報告事項針對第21條暫緩列案 二十一案 第二十一案暫緩列案是否有當進行公決提案 任中國國民黨立法院黨團接下來我們請登記第二位 請審委員柏楊發言"},{"start":2277.472,"end":2305.1,"text":"好 今天的案由 針對第11屆第1會期第19次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項 附議案之處理事項 這個6月21號 及對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢的6月25號 建請照議事日程草案及增列報告事項通過 提案人 沈伯陽 民主進步黨 立法院黨團接下來我們請登記第三位的林委員國城發言"},{"start":2316.909,"end":2328.215,"text":"本院臺灣民眾黨 針對第11屆第1會期第19次的議程日程 除增列報告事項第11、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19及20案 建議暫緩列案 其餘報告事項、執行事項"},{"start":2337.179,"end":2349.164,"text":"互議之處理事項以及行政院報告施政方針並被刑均照議程的日程草案增列報告事項通過是否得當敬請公決臺灣民眾黨立宴黨團"},{"start":2356.301,"end":2382.287,"text":"好,我們現在有三個提案了那我們按照這個,現在就進行處理按照我們這個先提案先處理我們第一個案子我們先處理陳玉珍委員這個提議按照議程增列第21案暫緩列案請問對陳玉珍委員的提議有異議有異議有異議我們進行處理那我們現在進行表決請清點在場人數"},{"start":2392.008,"end":2397.074,"text":"好 我們在場人數18人 現在贊成陳玉珍委員提案的請舉手好 贊成者9位 那反對陳玉珍委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":2417.432,"end":2428.638,"text":"好 反對者8位 那贊成者多數 棄權1人那我們贊成者多數 我們就按照陳玉珍委員的提案通過"},{"start":2430.097,"end":2447.499,"text":"那接下來第二案這個沈伯陽委員的提案是照草案及增列報告事項通過了但是因為剛才已經處理了第一案就是增列第21案暫緩列案所以這個我們沈委員伯陽的案子我們就不予處理了"},{"start":2448.786,"end":2470.726,"text":"那接下來有第三個案子是林國城委員提議增列這個議程增列第11至20案都暫緩列案其餘均照議程草案及增列報告事項通過那請問這個對林國城委員的提議有無異議有有異議那我們現在進行表決請清點在場人數"},{"start":2475.769,"end":2480.153,"text":"在場人數18人那贊成林國成委員提議的請舉手贊成者10人反對林國成委員提案的請舉手反對者8人那贊成者多數我們通過"},{"start":2502.162,"end":2523.149,"text":"那我們報告事項就修正通過質詢事項、副議案之處理事項這個6月21號的這個副議案處理事項以及對行政院院長施政報告施政方針繼續質詢6月25號的這個議程我們就通過那接下來我們就請宣讀人民請願案"},{"start":2525.359,"end":2547.615,"text":"人民請願一、一請願法第4條規定系屬引體訴訟之事項者共二案二、一立法院職權行使法第65條規定含罪安全的機關處理者共三案宣布完畢請問對於人民請願案有無異議無異議我們通過請問有無臨時動議沒有齁那我們本次會議進行到此為止現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":2551.538,"end":2551.558,"text":"會議結束"}]}},{"id":"154079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154079","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a00ae72bd61e32f772c761cbf38c089947057cd429a8f12ad0300be7979f504765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:11:54 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今天的案由 針對第11屆第1會期第19次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項 附議案之處理事項 這個6月21號 及對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢的6月25號 建請照議事日程草案及增列報告事項通過 提案人 沈伯洋 民主基督黨 立法院黨團接下來我們請登記"}]}},{"id":"154077","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154077","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a9d519becf65062042c761cbf38c089947057cd429a8f12ad19ee2b2e751d37cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:10:38 - 12:11:15","影片長度":"00:00:37","會議時間":"2024-06-18T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第16次會議（事由：一、審定本院第11屆第1會期第19次會議議事日程    及人民請願案              二、審定本院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會議事    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各位同仁本院中國國民黨立法院黨團針對第11屆第1會期第19次會議報告事項針對第21條暫緩列案21案 第21案暫緩列案是否有當進行公決提案的中國國民黨立法院黨團"},{"start":32.372,"end":35.17,"text":"接下來我們請登記第二位 請審委員柏楊發言"}]}},{"id":"154076","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154076","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529ac8e5f61b4020f7782c761cbf38c089947057cd429a8f12ad3b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"12:06:27 - 12:07:30","影片長度":"00:01:03","會議時間":"2024-06-18T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第16次會議（事由：一、審定本院第11屆第1會期第19次會議議事日程    及人民請願案              二、審定本院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會議事    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再唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯唯"},{"start":25.55,"end":49.492,"text":"時間是113年6月13號星期四的上午9點那第二點提到復議案定於6月21日星期五上午報告事項處理完畢進行記名投票表決兩案分別為兩張票同時投票並由各黨團推派一人擔任投開票監察員其餘相關投票事務工作依例"},{"start":50.132,"end":54.894,"text":"授權議事處辦理那當日會議不進行施政方針報告質詢這是當時的這個黨團寫章結論"}]}},{"id":"154075","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154075","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a2a701019b3013f742c761cbf38c089947057cd429a8f12ad4dbbcf117f4815fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:05:53 - 12:06:24","影片長度":"00:00:31","會議時間":"2024-06-18T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期程序委員會第16次會議（事由：一、審定本院第11屆第1會期第19次會議議事日程    及人民請願案              二、審定本院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會議事    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們的經濟部跟臺電就經費的部分再研議呢?因為我也有看到臺電在2022年有提出一個5645億的10年電網強韌計畫就是希望這個就地發電就近使用然後杜絕大規模的這個停電再發生"},{"start":2572.816,"end":2602.171,"text":"所以我想這個高壓電塔這個地下化尤其是在這個人口很稠密的地方我想它其實地下化也有助於這個剛剛所謂的不管是小動物或是一些其他外力導致的停電所以也想要請院長和部長是不是可以把我們這個南屯高壓電塔地下化的這個騎乘和這個工程可不可以考慮把它放進我們電網強韌計畫中這樣這個工程可以早日的實施然後也還給我們鄉親我們地方一個乾淨的天空並且降低民眾對於健康的疑慮"},{"start":2604.158,"end":2631.955,"text":"好謝謝委員提到臺電始終將電網的韌性的強化當作未來重要的工作尤其未來10年變了5000多億那這個一定會持續的落實下去因為只有這樣做才不會到處跳電變成家裡沒電所以強韌電網的這個工作一定要做到但是這個一定要分區域分階段來進行好那至於說這個南屯區嶺東高壓電塔的這個"},{"start":2634.281,"end":2651.486,"text":"目前有沒有納入到整個第一期或是未來期責的計畫裡面我請部長來說明一下報告委員這個南屯的這個高壓電塔就是本來沒有納入這個台電公司的強化電網的這樣的一個計畫也沒有在這個預算裡面"},{"start":2653.786,"end":2673.896,"text":"但是好像在這個之前委員有提出來嘛,所以我們臺電公司就有跟這個臺中市政府來研商,因為這個提出來一定要臺中市政府或者是當地的這個使用戶提出來這個需求啦,所以我們現在有在談這個還在繼續在談這個費用的分布。"},{"start":2676.997,"end":2705.792,"text":"好,謝謝部長所以我們希望說這個部分要再請院長跟部長多多的幫忙協助看可不可以納入這個電網強韌電網計畫這對地方上的人民來講是非常重要的一件事情那在這裡再次拜託好,再來我要講的是這個來,就是為了落實我們這個社宅可負擔的精神其實2021年的社宅法我們的社宅的這個租金由地方"},{"start":2706.283,"end":2728.242,"text":"自定改為中央主管機關因斟酌成豬者的所得狀況負擔能力跟市場行情訂定分級收費的原則由主管機關訂定之。但是目前這個修法至今已經兩年了,那內政部作為這個中央主管機關卻沒有訂定,為什麼呢?"},{"start":2731.865,"end":2756.45,"text":"謝謝委員的關心。我想設宅的租金,我們未來在訂定的時候不是所謂的一市兩制,而是說我們要依據,譬如說委員所在的地方是台中市,那按照台中市目前在房屋租金市場上面的這個比例原則來做處理。譬如說對於社會弱勢或經濟弱勢,我們就以低收入戶或是中低收入戶一般行情上面的三折到五折來做計價。"},{"start":2757.29,"end":2759.992,"text":"謝謝部長對,我跟您說一下因為目前現實的狀況是這樣在台北市、新北市、桃園他們都是採用這個依所得設定分級租金你剛剛說的有點像是身份"},{"start":2785.265,"end":2801.57,"text":"那中央的部分這是以身分別市場租金打折那台中市的部分呢他其實是用身分別然後內涵這個所得別的混成那目前呢這個北北桃的社宅當然最多可是未來呢各都都會有中央的新建的社宅完工"},{"start":2802.21,"end":2827.524,"text":"到時候就會發生一件事情就是一國多制或是一市兩制也就是說我地方的社宅跟你中央的社宅可能在旁邊可是大家的標準不同喔所以我想要提出這個問題不是要跟你討論說你到底打多少折而是這個問題就會導致民眾混亂他不知道哪一個究竟是地方政府蓋的哪一個中央蓋的那他到底用什麼條件呢所以我要講的事情是這個部分是不是應該統一一個制度來協調中央跟地方"},{"start":2829.681,"end":2846.614,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,我想您講的沒有錯,因為每個地方縣市的租金根本在市場上的行情都不一樣,包括在同一個市政府裡面或同一個市裡面也有所謂的蛋黃區或是蛋白區。您先講的是身分別跟所得別。"},{"start":2847.515,"end":2847.535,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":2863.42,"end":2874.65,"text":"我想這樣對於要追求居住正義的年輕人來講,比較好有一個追尋的目標,而不是現在就定一個死的這個價錢在那個地方,反而影響到租屋市場上的緣故。其實你們自己內政部在112年的10月6號跟113年的2月21號、4月23號都有召開這個言商會議。"},{"start":2882.336,"end":2903.989,"text":"中央草案也就是希望綜合所得跟身份進行這個收費那這個部分我要講的就是這個你一直扯到這個收費去我覺得這是應該是要盡速擬定這個部分要把全國的制度整合起來如果你們覺得說要為了避免所謂的假窮人的問題我覺得應該借鑒社福體系的乃至於到其他的這個住宅補貼的做法"},{"start":2904.775,"end":2924.022,"text":"配套檢討現行收入檢核制度所以我講的主要是這個所以希望我們的行政院可以積極研擬跟地方溝通協調才能避免已經快要發生這個涉宅導致這個涉宅租金一國多字或一市兩制的問題好不好好我們謝謝委員的指教再來也是跟居住正義有關的部分"},{"start":2926.017,"end":2947.251,"text":"這個中央在4月份的時候呢,調漲電價,那這個電價漲幅調漲大概3到5%嘛,約有1250萬戶受影響。那部分的房東,我們也收到很多的陳情,就是藉機調漲房租跟電價。那租客也抱怨,那房東收取電費本來就已經不是按照台電的費率收費,已經被扒一層皮。"},{"start":2948.031,"end":2972.478,"text":"現在通知甚至要從每度5元調漲到6元這個漲幅高達20%所以呢也讓人家覺得說這個政府給了房東新理由再扒第二層皮那台電的虧損卻是基層的租屋主要負擔那前內政部長林佑昌他在4月24號也有表示已經預告要修正租屋定型化契約明定每度的電價不得超過這個當期電費單的平均的電"},{"start":2976.012,"end":2991.162,"text":"的這個平均的電價所以房東每期收取的電費總額也不可以超過電費單的總額他那時候說5月上路應該沒問題請教請問院長現在已經6月18號那你們預告的這個修正草案進度為何上路了嗎"},{"start":2994.673,"end":3020.851,"text":"我來回答一下好嗎?我想林佑昌部長在上次回應我們立法院確實沒有錯。我們在5月14日的時候已經完成修正草案的預告。現在我們將修正草案送到行政院來核定。最主要就是行政院他是要由消保會來做一個通盤的考慮跟審議之後,經過核定再由我們內政部來公告施行。也就是說剛剛委員所關心的就是說電價漲,然後房東也調漲。"},{"start":3023.673,"end":3039.934,"text":"這是跟消費者權益有關的。對,但是你們當初有說5月要上路,但是到目前就是還沒上路嘛,對不對?所以我是覺得...那個,他的行政程序是需要有做那個預告,草案要預告,然後才做審議,然後再回來公告施行。所以你在打臨當初的部長他給的就是亂給開芭樂票嗎?"},{"start":3041.756,"end":3042.277,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":3071.332,"end":3096.95,"text":"程序是一直在進行的那消保會會安排在6月底的會議當中來做討論那我們會盡速讓他那你可不可以說7月可以是上路看他討論的結果是不是所以有可能一再延宕嗎有可能一再延宕嗎我希望能夠盡快的按照過去部長所跟各位的委員的承諾跟國人的承諾這樣進行下去"},{"start":3097.45,"end":3122.598,"text":"那請院長承諾我們用你最快的速度讓這個上路,然後我們希望可以在7月好嗎?我們一起努力加油,謝謝。好,院長去年選前財政部也端出新清安的貸款的政策牛肉,那提高的貸款額度調到1000萬,那貸款的年限也延長到40年,那寬限期也延長到5年,你認為這是符合居住正義的政策嗎?"},{"start":3124.119,"end":3133.255,"text":"這個政策原來的美意是相當好幫助年輕人能夠在比較低的利率情況底下取得防止"},{"start":3134.241,"end":3135.721,"text":"好部長這聽起來是這樣子沒有錯但是我要告訴你的是說美意的確"},{"start":3163.929,"end":3164.031,"text":"但是從結果來看"},{"start":3165.609,"end":3194.788,"text":"他就是一個頭痛一頭腳痛一腳的問題喔那原本這個公股銀行的利息的減半碼喔還有新清安繼續的減收還有額外的加碼補貼甚至狂盛俗稱的房貸地板價的公交房貸但是結果我要講的就是結果結果造成今年的第一季全台建物買賣的移轉動數到了8.1萬棟是近13年來次高的紀錄而且這個央行公布喔第一季五大銀行這個承作的這個"},{"start":3196.509,"end":3219.574,"text":"購屋的貸款累計到2382億是歷年的同季新高尤其新青安也佔比到了39%其實讓整個房市更加熱絡那七都的這個第一季的房價年增高達一成創下新高我就說這個結果看起來是沒有符合居住正義的所以到底是居住正義還是炒房"},{"start":3220.595,"end":3238.569,"text":"我想要請教院長現在有很多年很多這個年輕人去買那也衍生一些包租公、人頭戶的亂象那接下來接下來還有這個境外資金回台的專法2019年的8月15號上路5年內不得投資這個不動產但是今年8月要繼續"},{"start":3241.938,"end":3251.216,"text":"每年根據你們的說法是400多億,我想這個包含上面同一題,看起來又要帶動房價的漲幅,請問你們有打算要怎麼抑制這個房價嗎?"},{"start":3252.657,"end":3277.749,"text":"還是說房價過去是經濟火車頭你們現在要讓他變經濟火箭頭一飛沖天委員也應該同意房價的漲跌他絕對不是單一的因素不是單一的因素好那我只想問院長你剛剛說的還有其他政府會善用這些政策工具好好的來對市場做全面的檢查好因為我想要關心的是現在大家"},{"start":3278.029,"end":3293.763,"text":"﹚"},{"start":3295.919,"end":3322.811,"text":"這個各個地區各個六都還有各個縣市狀況不同他如果有新的公共建設發展或是有新的這個工業的場區那造成的房價的上漲那一方面是自然一方面是因為這樣的群聚的聚落我想要問這些就是我們先聚焦在這個部分我們想要問說對於這個房價的這個部分你有沒有辦法給出承諾或是有沒有更積極的作為告訴我們"},{"start":3323.571,"end":3325.833,"text":"院長居住正義包含社宅包含租屋市場包含購物市場"},{"start":3351.295,"end":3375.595,"text":"社宅我們剛剛前面討論但是我現在跟你講的就是購物市場也是他們最關心的一環嘛你總不可能要他一輩子本來你們做社宅的美意也不是說要他一輩子住社宅嘛對不對所以我是說這個購物市場你沒有想辦法解決的話那居住這一永遠只是口號所以我想要告訴院長的是請你可以就是跨部會趕快把這件事情當成重中之重然後也為我們國人做一個保證"},{"start":3376.294,"end":3376.314,"text":"是。"},{"start":3395.029,"end":3401.274,"text":"再來,根據警政署最新的2024年6月6日的統計顯示,112年的詐欺案件發生37000多件。比起上一年度,漲了將近三成,其中以投資詐欺也較上一年增加了5233件。"},{"start":3416.605,"end":3417.026,"text":"當然不滿意"},{"start":3436.101,"end":3437.082,"text":"沒錯,還好你說不滿意喔。"},{"start":3463.544,"end":3470.481,"text":"但是之前行政院發表的新聞稿卻駁斥打詐沒有成果並強調打詐經費都是花在島口上沒有打水漂"},{"start":3471.963,"end":3492.851,"text":"所以我覺得這個是不是跟院長的態度有點不同?不是我對我們打詐同仁第一線的工作的辛勞我非常的了解但是這種數字就是因為我們整個社會變遷國內環境的結果造成這種狀況我非常不滿意好院長我告訴你你們用的新聞稿裡面是引用全球防詐聯盟GASA的數據喔"},{"start":3494.191,"end":3519.939,"text":"全球平均詐騙損失金額前三名的是新加坡、瑞士跟奧地利。那台灣是在43個國家裡面第23名。所以我才特別拿這個新聞稿來問這個我們的院長。這個新聞稿的駁斥是要告訴大家說我們其實還不錯,被騙的不多嗎?但是院長你知道嗎?這個GASA的數據裡面也有統計59%的台灣人受訪者每週至少接觸到一次的詐騙,排名第三。"},{"start":3520.663,"end":3528.687,"text":"而且僅有6%的民眾顯示說很少或是未接觸過詐騙而且損失追回的比例上臺灣僅13%遠遠遠低於日本和新加坡的28%跟25%"},{"start":3532.355,"end":3562.07,"text":"最誇張的是裡面有講到估計的被詐騙金額的黑數是2000億台幣只是我們2023年官方統計的零頭院長覺得這個有改善的空間嗎當然有所以我堅信不是越打越多是我們不打更多所以一定要嚴打讓它降下去拜託大院趕快通過修法讓我們手中真的我有力氣那我一定要求嚴格的執行那現在其實對於這個結果越打越炸的結果看起來這個形容詞其實真的還是比我們新冠疫"},{"start":3562.469,"end":3562.769,"text":"我們內政部"},{"start":3593.836,"end":3620.215,"text":"他有打詐中心。速發部也有。法務部也有。當然他檢調單位。金管會對金融機關。那NCC當然也是一個關鍵。好,就是剛剛講的金管會、速發部、NCC、法務部還有我們內政部、檢政署這些的。那以上幾大部會也是涵蓋了大部分民眾會遇到詐騙時會需要提供協助的這個機關。但我們發現其中有很多的"},{"start":3620.888,"end":3636.314,"text":"極大的問題,我們看似堅實的防線,其實居然有一大票的害群之馬在勾結這個詐騙集團,甘願成為詐騙集團的手下。而且還能以打入詐騙集團並有業務合作為榮,名字遮起來看還以為是想要加入黃仁勳的AI團隊。"},{"start":3637.304,"end":3662.199,"text":"所以我們看看其實還有一堆的以下一堆的詐騙集團勾結這個律師、檢察官、法官、警察、銀行行員、NCC委員、廣告公司我想這哪裡是打架國家打詐國家隊根本是詐騙國家隊這些都是這些職業都是我們國家的精英公務員但是我們裡面是有出現害群之馬的現象所以我想這些害群之馬就會導致"},{"start":3663.752,"end":3669.269,"text":"我們沒有辦法,人民沒有辦法信任喔你們要怎麼說服人民說相信政府沒有內鬼可以認真的打詐"},{"start":3672.268,"end":3696.934,"text":"任何團體裡面有害群之馬都是團體最傷腦筋的。我想內閣團隊會嚴加的管理跟要求督促我們的首長對屬下的各種生活還有這個公職習慣作息時間應該好好的了解讓他們能夠在公務時間當中單純的以處理公務為主。謝謝院長所以希望你可以秉持勿枉勿重的精神全力找出害群之馬。"},{"start":3697.894,"end":3723.362,"text":"再來因為這個事件讓我們想到過去在打這個假球很盛行的時候其實真的發現這個好的球員到最後發現哇原來身邊的隊友總教練最後他要報告到球隊的老闆他全部都是打全部都是詐騙的一環就是全部都是打假球的一環都被收買只有他自己乖乖打球所以這個部分我要提醒的院長就是說請你們勿晃勿動一定要從裡面好好的展現你們的決心為"},{"start":3731.515,"end":3738.197,"text":"好,謝謝廖委員。好,謝謝卓院長。下一位請林委員處應質詢。謝謝主席。主席有請卓榮蔡院長。請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":3764.209,"end":3783.009,"text":"林委員好院長好今天是18號所以說520上任其實即將要滿月了我看今天媒體針對院長包括內閣有出了幾篇報導但是感覺上這些報導的方向都認為說我們現在包括財經內閣狀況外政治小白這個閣員遭到綠委狂電"},{"start":3787.393,"end":3811.532,"text":"其實我們我是不知道這個標題怎麼來的但是我想我們跟院長碰面的時候我們都是給建議但是確實也有媒體認為說我們的這些格緣來自產業界的很多所以可能我們的內閣都還在磨合所以院長您認為我們的內閣磨合好也準備好了要帶領我們台灣走向另外一個新的高峰嗎?"},{"start":3813.137,"end":3821.762,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵還有提醒520到現在真的將近一個月我們花了很長的時間在準備"},{"start":3823.567,"end":3824.388,"text":"所以被稱為外星人內閣你可以接受嗎?"},{"start":3851.725,"end":3864.631,"text":"當然不是,我們長得都跟大家一模一樣。但是經過4次跟委員的參與以及很多次在委員會裡面的互動,彼此的了解都應該有非常的進步了。而且大家應該發現他們對於他們的專業是"},{"start":3868.561,"end":3869.381,"text":"好嚴肅的問題問完之後我要問個輕鬆的"},{"start":3897.808,"end":3899.434,"text":"院長有沒有看過所謂網紅影片?你認識哪些網紅?"},{"start":3904.366,"end":3926.6,"text":"因為最近網紅題目很夯啊你可以輕鬆回答因為是輕鬆題所以你輕鬆回答有也可以沒有也沒關係委員也是網紅所以看過我的影片嗎好那你知道這個現在我們在網路上的網紅不論是透過這個YouTube啊或者是其他的這個數位平台他們如果有人贊助或者是花錢買廣告他們怎麼稱這個廣告商你知道嗎"},{"start":3930.336,"end":3936.783,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":3950.819,"end":3965.792,"text":"台灣的方式那麼從過去有所謂的榮媒體找出在地協力者然後透過抖音紅書的文化統戰再到中小型的媒體的認知作戰跟借選現在最新的方法就是收買網紅給他贊助給他金錢"},{"start":3969.815,"end":3996.997,"text":"那麼這些中國乾爹我們到底有沒有辦法置入因為台灣是一個言論自由的國家所以說在這些網路上面的影片我們不可能封殺但是如果他今天是花錢講中國好山好水好棒棒中國好安全如果這是花錢的有中國乾爹那就是廣告就是置入那就應該讓乾爹現行事實上我要強調的是在很多的平台當中包括Google你只要是拿贊助的"},{"start":3998.038,"end":4026.417,"text":"這些網紅會直接寫說感謝乾爹某某某贊助感謝乾爹誰誰誰那如果是這樣的話這些含有中國乾爹贊助的這些相關的網紅跟影片一旦現行我相信台灣的人民會知道到底你是收錢說中國好還是你真的覺得中國好甚至於現在又傳出有藝人要組政黨網紅藝人要組政黨這些都是背後如果有中國乾爹我就叫院長"},{"start":4028.058,"end":4029.199,"text":"謝謝委員其實我一直覺得相較於武力的威脅經濟的威脅"},{"start":4045.851,"end":4064.32,"text":"最大的還是這種文化的入侵。這種文化的入侵是隨時隨刻在潛移默化當中而且是在生活周遭的。所以我也很希望國人能夠自己提升自己內心的防衛力量。知道說當我們去進到對方的遊戲規則當中"},{"start":4066.152,"end":4083.575,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4083.675,"end":4110.156,"text":"的角色提出非常清楚的預告預警這個絕對是必要的所以我要問邱主委那麼現在有所謂從容媒體到乾爹養有容台有買台還有打台在這個部分我們到底有沒有辦法來制定相關的法律讓中國乾爹現行呢本席是媒體出來的我們來看廣電相關的法規不論是電視或者是廣播來到下一張"},{"start":4111.343,"end":4131.321,"text":"就是他有所謂的行銷的規範那數位平台有嗎?廣播電視都會認為如果你今天是有廣告那就要載民視廣告不然的話容台之後買台然後另外一方面他又打台包括我講的打台不是只是指共軍繞台喔包括台灣的媒體人"},{"start":4132.842,"end":4151.57,"text":"都可以被中國列為所謂的不歡迎對象監控對象所以你要不收錢不然我打你我監控你甚至我懲治你那麼在數位平台當中有沒有可能陸委會跟數位部相關的來制定一套讓中國乾電現行的方式"},{"start":4152.574,"end":4175.419,"text":"非常感謝委員的提醒您剛剛所說的如何讓背後的乾爹或者是背後的贊助者能夠現行我們現行的打詐專法的草案就有讓廣告實名制能夠揭露它背後的贊助者或者廣告的來源"},{"start":4176.459,"end":4182.741,"text":"好,所以就是說接下來的打詐專法的草案當中就會針對數位平台所提供的內容來提起必要的法律的責任或是連帶的責任。"},{"start":4199.657,"end":4222.332,"text":"此外我還跟委員報告要預防這個還是要從試讀能力的提升來加強。包括有兩個環節一個當然是我們對於試讀中國大陸試讀兩岸關係的這個跟教育課程來提升讓有意赴中國大陸或受到中國大陸求學就業的人他們有這個課程"},{"start":4223.954,"end":4238.255,"text":"那這個很感謝陸委會跟教育部一直在合作那另外一方面就是在網路試讀能力的提升遇到這個來路不明以示中國大陸的網紅在對於我們認知作戰的時候我們要學習博外傳謝謝"},{"start":4239.517,"end":4258.711,"text":"好所以呢有關於網紅網路的部分其實講到的就像院長所說的其實文化是非常重要文化統戰是最可怕的我想經濟能夠讓一個國家往前走但是文化才是最重要偉大的最後的關鍵力量所以我相信院長你一定同意那就是文化是有價的"},{"start":4259.511,"end":4271.455,"text":"但是如果說現在我們會發現在我們強力的在推動文化的時候我們文化部現有的貸款的方式是加強文化創意提升轉型的貸款以及文化創意產業青年創業及啟動金的貸款"},{"start":4275.737,"end":4298.124,"text":"但是你要知道文化有價但是回到擔保條件的時候包括我們的很多銀行是上有政策下有對策到後來他評估的條件還是土地建物或者是你第一受惠的抵押品都必須是房屋或土地所以部長這個會不會就又反而又過來倒打了文化產業一巴掌"},{"start":4298.584,"end":4298.704,"text":"主委"},{"start":4322.983,"end":4350.914,"text":"經管會有沒有對文化特別的來考量?因為他考量的是清償能力。是,但是這個我們在政府獎勵的部分真的就只能用紮紮實實的土地或者房子嗎?那這樣子回歸過來,你要知道還是沒有鼓勵到文化產業啊。未來有沒有可能考慮在這個部分跟金融機構做溝通,至少他們在貸款的時候對於土地或房屋這種實質的不重產能夠比例下降?"},{"start":4351.788,"end":4373.698,"text":"謝謝委員,現在據我了解現在我們在法規上對於是不是要用土地或是無形資產來做一個擔保品是沒有限制的只是誠如剛剛我們實務上銀行大概都習慣是以比較容易有公平價值的不動產但他們也在做比如說假設這有取得比如說有文化部基金的擔保的他是可以來做這個的"},{"start":4375.239,"end":4376.28,"text":"好,院長我之所以提取這個問題是連帶剛剛上面的"},{"start":4391.889,"end":4410.292,"text":"如果中國乾爹不斷地在養台灣的藝人台灣的網紅台灣的文化產業那我們當然就會被吸過去他只要是文化置入那麼我們根本無一倖免所以台灣必須要給予一定的肯定包括我們來看下一張其實本席去查了2014年我們就有一個"},{"start":4410.732,"end":4436.699,"text":"文化資產的建架平台但是呢這個平台在2017年已經宣告死亡了他其實當時就是希望給無形的文化資產有一個建架的平台充實內容產業的人才但是現在發現他事實上是完全沒有在運作的所以這邊我也提供給主委建議可以回去思考一下是不是重新啟動或是成立一個類似的平台因為銀行沒有這樣的人去了解到底文化資產"},{"start":4437.699,"end":4437.899,"text":"謝謝,謝委員我們會來研究,謝謝。"},{"start":4454.301,"end":4477.035,"text":"好最後一個本席關注的是有關於資安的問題我們其實現在已經來到了這個畢業季我想跟院長提出幾個數據包括呢事實上根據調查研究了解在2024年資安準備指數當中全台只有8%的企業是可以有所謂完成現在的資安風險但是其實台灣有90%"},{"start":4480.057,"end":4496.405,"text":"八是中小企業我們知道大企業你說台積電你說這些大型的機構他的資安絕對沒有問題可是在98%的中小企業沒有做好資安風險控管的時候我要舉出另外一個例子是我剛講到畢業季全台灣有將近18000個資安科系的畢業生"},{"start":4501.747,"end":4517.836,"text":"但是事實上只有2000人會就業那麼也就是大概只有11%會進入資安產業那是因為沒有就業的這些名額沒有這些就業的工作嗎?其實不是喔根據資安相關的聯盟台灣資安聯盟的數據台灣每個月有3000個"},{"start":4521.698,"end":4524.2,"text":"另外就是我要一併講的第三個問題是"},{"start":4547.615,"end":4559.545,"text":"院長您知道這個所謂MIT或是我們自由品牌算台灣的自主品牌的話,你只要這個東西佔有百分之多少的比例就可以稱為台灣自主品牌,您知道嗎?"},{"start":4561.872,"end":4577.79,"text":"百分之三十五就是說你只要是百分之三十五就可以稱為MIT然後是台灣的自主品牌可是院長您一定知道一個資安的系統它是一個軟體它絕對不可能是只有百分之三十五其他是別人寫的"},{"start":4578.351,"end":4592.047,"text":"那麼到底台灣的資安系統所使用的這些軟體是不是真的MIT?我要提出的第三個疑問就是那麼到底我們有沒有可能是台灣如果是我們自己研發的軟體"},{"start":4593.268,"end":4621.089,"text":"可以給上一個MIT真正臺灣自主產品的一個標籤這樣政府也可以鼓勵臺灣優秀的資安人才投入不論是設計研發或者是操作就可以補強前面的問題這是我提出的三個疑問等一下稍後我也會跟臺灣資安聯盟相關的成員來召開記者會但是在記者會之前我希望聽到院長剛剛聽到的三個問題有沒有可能落實"},{"start":4627.531,"end":4646.195,"text":"政府推動數位轉型對象也在於中小微企業幫助他做企業轉型那數位轉型過程當中資安問題當然是一個重要的一環我們希望經濟部也好教育部也好能夠來做媒合那經濟部也有一個計畫要在大大小小的公司各種小企業裡面能夠"},{"start":4646.715,"end":4673.49,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4685.866,"end":4693.553,"text":"好,謝謝林委員。下一位我們請陳委員抄名質詢。"},{"start":4712.4,"end":4740.315,"text":"副委員長好首先有請我們行政院卓院長請卓院長背書陳委員好卓院長好你的施政報告裡面我確確實實讀了一遍我相信我比所有的立法委員還努力的讀你施政報告我這裡面都是做了筆記"},{"start":4741.653,"end":4764.292,"text":"把你所講的施政報告每一句每一句我好惹那裡面你寫到我們要以行動完成夢想我們要創新帶來突破接任行政院長本來不是我人生的規劃但選擇接受此議任務我就會全力以赴"},{"start":4765.754,"end":4788.226,"text":"重點在這兩句話未來哪裡有困難我和行政團隊就到哪裡哪裡有問題我就想辦法解決問題所以今天我第一個主題苗栗現在在轉型發展我們需要行政院大力的支持讓苗栗縣源頭趕上"},{"start":4790.157,"end":4815.755,"text":"所以苗栗縣是在猛力奔跑,不是在走路。問題請稍微緊拍表表。真的要你這AI的團隊裡面來務實協助苗栗縣。等一下我提出來的問題,就是苗栗縣的困難。苗栗縣的問題在哪裡?第一個我先這樣子,總委員長我是有準備而來的。"},{"start":4816.772,"end":4840.969,"text":"我必須向你提出困難問題解釋,我必須拿出很具體。第一個我要跟你探討的就是我們現在財政收支化分化。我的主題苗栗牡栗創碎應有公平的對待。所以你在我們財政收支化分化裡面應該增加激勵的制度,鼓勵創碎的現實。"},{"start":4842.506,"end":4857.014,"text":"我現在從110年到112年的稅收這三個縣市是五級財政縣市苗栗縣從111年到112年一共為中央創稅877億但是這三年期間我苗栗縣只分到468億所以我們都交給中央409億"},{"start":4870.1,"end":4878.105,"text":"那嘉峪縣110億才225億他中央補助52億你們倒貼317億屏東縣577億那個中央補貼809億你們232億台幣我趴屁去創稅結果我在統籌分配款一般補助款反而變少了這母女的孩子"},{"start":4898.971,"end":4918.69,"text":"沒有堂吃還有穿睡越多補治變成越少這不合理不公平那我今天可能明天財主說這從國民黨民進黨執政每一個人都需要改都沒有改因為這改了你們就講知識體大但是我穿睡能力高你應該說給我"},{"start":4920.111,"end":4936.149,"text":"我們苗栗縣的負債如果以這樣暢銷的比例你每年都給我補支100億我馬上就解決回歸正常的財務計算這是很不公平這是過癮的這是保險苗栗縣我希望你大友的你想要改進的"},{"start":4936.909,"end":4948.836,"text":"一個行政院長好好地處理這個問題這個問題是確實發生在尤其財政跟組織不要有偏見我們應該得到我們公平的待遇院長你怎麼樣回答一下我只強調激勵制度"},{"start":4959.194,"end":4981.858,"text":"謝謝委員我知道苗栗縣的財政一直是在臺灣各縣市當中比較特殊的那中央政府長年以來也持續做這個補助你有沒有偏見有歧視啊我現在還誤寨四百億天天被你們財政控管天天被你們盯著鑰匙我趴屁股沒到一點點資金啊對啦已經行之多年但是中央對苗栗的補助從來也不會少過"},{"start":4982.518,"end":5011.806,"text":"看到這個數字應該很多是在統籌會面所以各地競爭型的我拜託了好幾次我希望大家要有良心一點不然我們有事的人敢看苗栗縣其實我們要發展我們只有四五百億你們這間建設都整個城業六都裡面我們看到心很痛不要為大都市的選票怕命我們這個政壇已經是很混亂的這樣好不好我希望改進有要的就會從這邊考慮給苗栗多一點可以嗎"},{"start":5014.842,"end":5027.939,"text":"我時間有限,我說明聽了太多次,我直接找院長,不是我去講的,摸了太久都一清二楚了好不好,院長你跟我講多考慮一下都好。"},{"start":5028.78,"end":5030.641,"text":"第二個問題我請內政部長苗栗縣警察局重建軍會我們需要你支援"},{"start":5057.435,"end":5070.142,"text":"苗栗縣的警察局蓋到現在是屬於臺灣省最古老的第二個警察局那在中央補助裡面在112年答應給我們14億84萬那因為整個那個通貨的膨脹113年中央說要補助我們16億9988萬我就說17億到多少"},{"start":5087.426,"end":5114.934,"text":"當時裡面苗栗縣要自首6.6億。您的怎麼樣?上一代你們的行政院裡面有答應。就是說113年3月吳哲成政委召集的話,請內政部履行確認,談為沿河類補治案件及補治前端第五期匡列預算,以便執行的一致性和完整性。那個劉部長。"},{"start":5116.801,"end":5118.983,"text":"拜託一下,我們現在還欠什麼?第5期前陣子我幫我看能不能這樣好嗎?"},{"start":5124.416,"end":5124.597,"text":"還缺3億,給我去計劃"},{"start":5152.66,"end":5153.501,"text":"沒有沒有沒有還沒有"},{"start":5180.459,"end":5208.665,"text":"還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有"},{"start":5210.305,"end":5233.451,"text":"我馬上請他們就送過來是委員 我要跟你講的就是我沒有跟你們講清楚所以才增加整個量體了你也知道 院長你說要解決問題有困難在哪裡你一定到我這個是專案內管的好不好這個已經比原來核定的金額要多原來核定的金額要多就通貨膨脹通貨膨脹以後整個算過吧不是要給自己愛情的啦通貨膨脹沒辦法給自己愛情好不好"},{"start":5239.853,"end":5250.379,"text":"都幾個年了,你已經當初14億啊,現在17億差3億,今天給你歐嗎?不要這樣小看,有沒有也沒關係啦,說到派遣就是這樣嘛,今天把你問題提出來了還不要講那個道理。您剛剛跟我講行政流程還沒有做好哪一期電給我?"},{"start":5260.725,"end":5282.667,"text":"不是,我們請苗栗縣政府先加速各項的工程流程,然後如果確定有不足的部分的話呢,我們會請行政院納入未來的前瞻計畫。委員報告,原來補助11億,後來增加的單位增加到16億,要請苗栗縣政府把那個增加的流程要補足。"},{"start":5282.987,"end":5299.591,"text":"而且他增加之後,自己在地方自治事項裡面開付出負擔的...沒有,他的補助款也隨著負擔啦。您在講什麼,是不是...負擔6億嘛。這比較難做,你們那個不會啦。好好做就一定會票數增加啦。好,謝謝。再來苗栗醫院的。呃,劉部長,拜託啊。我們不是這樣啦。我們是乾坤仔啦。"},{"start":5317.099,"end":5341.077,"text":"委員好部長好苗栗市支援醫療支援比較缺乏的地方苗栗縣的集中生醫院集中流中心講了好久110年111年施政參院長到現在為止每一個地方去每一個都要做到現在113年"},{"start":5345.203,"end":5366.947,"text":"這個工程已經流標了,放射腫瘤流標14次,集中症醫院擴建流標6次,就是欠錢嘛,要一直流標嘛。你這個人拜託,每次到的時候,選舉到時候大家都要講重視苗栗的醫療資源,這點,能特別拜託。院長,這是苗栗困難問題。"},{"start":5373.39,"end":5384.854,"text":"的所在我希望你尊重的解決。我不是來應付的,大家插證你都幾十年了解的。我是很真心誠意請你幫我們解決問題。請你幫我們倒秀。怎麼樣,這個能不能趕快?"},{"start":5389.707,"end":5390.347,"text":"新內閣新氣象新AI的內閣"},{"start":5419.155,"end":5421.456,"text":"謝謝委員長期對苗栗營醫療資源的爭取,我們非常感謝"},{"start":5441.149,"end":5465.583,"text":"那有關於集中症醫療計畫大樓跟放射腫瘤治療擴建工程其實都是苗栗縣民在醫療資源的增加當中非常重視的兩個地方那的確也是流標多次集中症6次放腫大樓14次所以現在已經召開多次的檢討會議我們現在這些調整預算調高到大概"},{"start":5466.499,"end":5469.361,"text":"你沒有選舉,我有選舉,我曉得我困難我痛苦在哪個地方,你只要說我要去那邊解決問題就好。"},{"start":5488.097,"end":5495.782,"text":"因為這邊講的內容我們大概都了解好不好?我們來實際務實來解決問題。好不好拜託?這個很重要,不然我們都送到外縣市啊。我們沒辦法輸給別人,好不好?特別拜託。再來這個問題看起來蠻大,但是對苗栗很確實。"},{"start":5514.878,"end":5543.42,"text":"我今天怎麼又在這裡問?部長你可以回去了,這個可能是內政部跟農業部。今天我提出來,指定苗栗縣為地區環坡釋放區,打造臺灣的清淨層。苗栗縣的山坡地大概佔全縣的86%。院長,你知道我們苗栗縣的山坡地現在一家中3000坪,大概1500萬。"},{"start":5545.933,"end":5572.224,"text":"一千五百萬要買你新建的房子,要買你台北的房子,買不到十平,啊你這樣有公平嗎?尤其山坡地的開發,你要看每個地方的情況不一樣,明天你占了86%,現在農民土地價格下跌,我心中永遠不滿意的。這個世界真沒有公平,你主意聽好,我不知道你有做過事嗎?"},{"start":5573.732,"end":5586.643,"text":"那六都的土地都市化、基化的農業區可以經過都市變更,變成自宅區、商業區。一樣的農民、一樣的農地它可以變,這邊被受限了10時點。"},{"start":5589.052,"end":5609.205,"text":"阿你們都市人,星期一到星期五燈紅酒綠在這旁邊探訪,待到那一代我們的好山好水、綠山清水,要給你們心想來享受疫情,限制的非常多。所以我今天特別為地方鐵絲姐姐要求大家,"},{"start":5610.287,"end":5623.812,"text":"而尤其現在物農在山坡地切水、切工,你說要種水果、種水稻,你自己就一年要休耕一次了,你來科學這個地方,那種就不務實的想法。"},{"start":5625.148,"end":5653.45,"text":"那我們地球環波到日本看一看打造出來有多漂亮我們為什麼又做不到這樣的宣傳所以我就這樣一刮快點就來修改譬如你農地什麼路要蓋在中央你山坡地、丘陵地不一樣還有只有種水果水稻才叫做經濟作物我種高級的樹木不是經濟作物嘛不要被學者這樣以為他的思想很先進那不實際"},{"start":5655.638,"end":5676.406,"text":"私底下我帶你去看以前開發的散坡地多好、多漂亮。我特別要求的是在苗栗成為第二次反坡的示範區,一個鄉鎮先做一個,兩個鄉鎮做一個,來打造看看。"},{"start":5677.91,"end":5707.18,"text":"不可以按照以往的觀念來拋棄農民啊。山坡地現在要做什麼?要水果地產,水果先到哪裡去採?沒有人去採。你們都市人了解嗎?不了解。現在的缺工要怎麼耕種?你要如何核化?你們說保障農民,你把農民的財產降低。都市的農地一直在變工,這是什麼血管?因為農地會變成我的山坡地、農地,我不會做什麼,怎麼做得到利?"},{"start":5709.447,"end":5731.666,"text":"委員長,我希望你下來看一下。好,謝謝委員。人口往都會區集中,產業往都會以及各個專業區集中,這個是一個趨勢。所以,賴總統在提出了幸福農業快樂農民的這個政策,所謂對農村再生條例等等,還有很多式的補貼,我們都有在做這個事情。"},{"start":5732.327,"end":5739.049,"text":"那當然對農民我認為是國家是根本,農業是國家是根本。我這個提出來絕對有用意,絕對是要改變現狀,改變不合理的現狀嘛。這個現狀是不是部長能夠說明一下,請博士部長說明一下。"},{"start":5754.774,"end":5774.368,"text":"我跟委員報告就是苗栗地區因為它地形特殊那相關的這些玻璃農業我們未來會持續然後另外照你剛才所提到的在我們的農村再生裡面結合區域治理本身就可以達到這樣類似這樣的一個目的不是這樣目的來的確實以前很多刁難的條件不一樣"},{"start":5777.458,"end":5795.977,"text":"您會否同意我們要先訂立自治法規才4萬7,有做過有摸過,好歪在這裡面就能顯示出來了。可能給農村帶來不同心。欸,這去到台北45分鐘,去到台中15分鐘,去到高雄75分鐘,啊到台北退休的人本來不是很好。"},{"start":5801.39,"end":5803.493,"text":"祝福國民、國民、國民、國民、國民、國民、國民、國民、國民、國民、國民、"},{"start":5811.26,"end":5831.501,"text":"我們每天都要做我們知道的通貨題材,我們要如何去解決它。那委員是不是你有這個特定具體的區域或是一個狀況,讓部長能夠去了解,那部長看主管處理。最好你去啦,部長他們我相信這個還不敢亂打黑人,你來嚇死什麼,你去來看我這個,你這個給我的副主管,為什麼不給我修改?"},{"start":5833.063,"end":5833.443,"text":"再來我要討論"},{"start":5862.708,"end":5884.189,"text":"陶芝苗大溪谷計劃第一,現在韓國國務法會,你們這經濟部我一直在討論陶芝苗大溪谷計劃苗栗縣現在已經提出了大概960公頃的一個計劃裡面包括職產科第二期"},{"start":5885.302,"end":5909.714,"text":"包括頭雲的科學園區,包括後龍的科技產業園區,這個地方跟新竹市、新竹縣、新竹科學園區、跟公園院、跟交通大學、跟清華大學非常近,等於是啊。所以我們要打拚,我們要分手,我們要改變苗栗的命運。"},{"start":5910.785,"end":5932.191,"text":"我們這個地方已經有科技的基石地,這個大溪谷之外,那報告院長趕快幫我們核定,讓我們來拚。這個是連接北部、連接中部、紫邨苗栗這一塊。這一塊連接完成的時候,大概溪部走廊的科技廊道就完成了。"},{"start":5933.892,"end":5959.944,"text":"這是一個與半導體跟AI串聯起來的而且能夠建構完整產業生態系的那麼我們也希望說苗栗縣政府能夠繼續的把土地盤點出來能夠增加在竹南或是頭份有適當的土地能夠讓國科會來進行規劃或是辦理那持續後的這個程度我們來處理我是特別跟你拜託因為王部長"},{"start":5961.736,"end":5978.83,"text":"講過我們臺灣的科技有50年的黃金期所以我們這個地方開發起來會改變苗栗的命運苗栗的未來我這不是跟你講假的我希望你這個如果送上來要趕快來核定好不好這幾個計畫"},{"start":5982.344,"end":6007.453,"text":"經濟部或是國安會都有目前進度在進行?我會請他們到苗栗縣實地考察,你們比較少到苗栗縣我去的時候我科家再請你們你真的假如苗栗縣是一個非常好的地方這幾個園區是完全新築科學園區的那一帶都延伸到這邊有衝出去的話拜託一下好不好我們的那個郭部長"},{"start":6009.741,"end":6035.22,"text":"你上次有答應喔,現在這邊再答應一次喔。報告委員,這個現在土地的問題是還有一些私有地啦,私人的土地,這些協調完了以後啊,就馬上可以報線。我相信很多都需要協調,我自己也很了解,地方很期盼這個完成。國化委主委送到這兩個地方,這個大概是土地的變更是由內政部跟國化部、行政院合訂的。"},{"start":6036.381,"end":6059.189,"text":"阿姨要推動是你們在推動的好不好給苗栗縣支一股加油的力量給我們一點勝利不過看你們台南高雄、甲嶼阿摩的行政協議我表明是保地你們不切水、不切電阿不搭檔你們去代算這個所在好不好"},{"start":6062.131,"end":6065.974,"text":"主委跟部長都會到現場了解狀況以後,我們就照這個目前進行的程序一直進行,那也希望地方政府、縣政府也能夠加強配合。現在換交通部啦"},{"start":6092.474,"end":6102.379,"text":"交通部的李部長,你們請回座交通部李部長"},{"start":6113.207,"end":6113.407,"text":"報告院長："},{"start":6137.803,"end":6164.286,"text":"這個大西湖計畫苗栗發展很重要我今天特別提出來有幾點請幫我加強之重那我也感謝上一次你們也合訂了台61線也就是西邊公路從新竹本來到香山我曾經的話這個從香山連接到貨龍一共180億"},{"start":6166.952,"end":6182.151,"text":"謝謝我們理事長你打電話來我特別感謝你這一條很重要我希望趕快快速的推動還有苗栗縣的台72縣接台61西邊公路這一條也核定了40.23億"},{"start":6184.383,"end":6210.103,"text":"再來,海線的雙規劃,一定嗎?鐵路的雙規劃,鐵路的雙規劃在廟裡都老了,就該後面了。60幾個五苦苦的哀求了好幾年,現在才推動這個綜合規劃。我希望這個綜合規劃能趕快及時的進行好不好。那這裡面,我們的台72線,叫做南湖。"},{"start":6211.411,"end":6231.619,"text":"苗栗縣現在交通網缺了一個重要點,就是所有重要道路,譬如台一縣,國道一號、國道三號都沒有聯絡網。那台七十二縣剛好可以做這個聯絡網。你在銅鑼還是投屋那邊做一個聯絡網的道路,連接著國道一號。"},{"start":6232.759,"end":6254.713,"text":"然後現在你有經過國道3號到西邊但是國道3號你沒有聯絡網的交通這邊可以編列進去因為這個帶動循環不管你科技的發展不管你觀光的發展這幾個那個交通的閘道把它完成的話我相信苗栗縣的交通建設就會非常的完整啊這個好好拜託"},{"start":6260.022,"end":6277.968,"text":"跟委員報告就是您提到的這幾個有關苗栗的重大的交通建設那有的已經可行性已經核定那現在再進入相關的規劃進一步的建設這個我們會加速流程那現在比較特別是72聯絡這個我想很重要"},{"start":6281.569,"end":6303.366,"text":"可以讓這個快速入網可以銜接那這個部分已經可行性也核定我們在後面來加速推動那可能有一個就是也跟委員報告就是臺72連接國一跟國三他跟既有的交流道都太近都不足兩公里那另外72又是沿著後龍溪所以他會有這個河川工地的這個問題"},{"start":6307.549,"end":6315.511,"text":"那這個我們還在想辦法克服。因為你稍微站起來,再來大西谷計劃新築縣市已經有牽軌計劃,但是院長我跟您報告,孜然頭昏是很重要的一個兩個鄉鎮,它跟新築市跟科學園區完全是連接在一起的。"},{"start":6333.905,"end":6346.594,"text":"那這個遷尾計畫如果你真的要發展這個科技走廊一定要把主軟頭拉住這個遷尾計畫,他都雞皮疙瘩在背地那對於交通對於未來的交通改善會很大的幫助"},{"start":6348.635,"end":6367.622,"text":"新的科學研究就有5秒來人,等一下上班。那我想,院長跟我們部長,這個牽軌計畫,我會請苗栗縣政府提出來。連接著牽軌主覽特訓,因為兩個是鄰近的相似,比鄰在一起的,好不好?齁,這個會贏嗎?突然提出來,你們好像還不怎麼稱職還是?"},{"start":6376.648,"end":6401.31,"text":"就是這個部分我們會再進一步了解不過現在目前新竹的輕軌因為有縣跟市所以新竹縣市正在整合再加一個苗栗縣你下來的話我看就會解決了我大概他們也有溝通協調我大概了解好不好這點給我們加強一下你要曉得苗栗縣的重大計畫是靠海的地方科技走廊"},{"start":6402.391,"end":6416.285,"text":"三邊的話觀光休閒海邊的人賺錢給三邊的人去休閒享受這是一個基本的概念跟規劃在希望你潛力支持因為那邊水庫很多你們以前不缺水苗栗縣幫忙很多"},{"start":6417.846,"end":6433.674,"text":"這次我也要跟委員報告,這次端午的連假,全國各縣市的旅館的住房率,苗栗是...我剩下沒有多少,我改天再邀你下來。現在還有兩條,就是我們海線通宵跟銅鑼科學園區,"},{"start":6435.755,"end":6457.251,"text":"通宵的人口本來是第四名的現在掉到第七名沒有產業在那邊所以我主張開一條從銅鑼科學園期到通宵這叫做通宵產業生命之路這沒得先給你挨五百五十萬評估費用來好分好分年趕緊來進行"},{"start":6458.908,"end":6485.149,"text":"因為未來的重大建設還是要你們行政院交通部來支持啦好不好再來剩下一分鐘院裡的車站我們的副院長你的家鄉你要好好照顧哈你下來看這個特別人家交代我說不到你要轉告給你副院長這個姊姊那個跨站市長還有苗栗縣最可憐的鄉鎮到最近才有7-11"},{"start":6487.268,"end":6511.919,"text":"以前我在高知公路裏面設立了藍日北池,因為那個地選高,所以交流啦,現在我們也找到一條捷徑的路,就是北日藍池,這要高層滿。我們現在你財政收入化分化負債那麼高,這條差不多高層幾萬,一定我先幫你報告一下,給我支持一下。以前施政長院長最支持這個,"},{"start":6513.052,"end":6528.672,"text":"大概這個地方要的經費他沒配合款他去看的時候結果這個鄉鎮實在發展受限制了我希望你也幫我解決這個問題好不好這個我們會去看過之後再來跟委員討論我看你這樣就要表列齁你選舉當秘書長也沒有人了"},{"start":6560.892,"end":6561.912,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員好,謝謝卓院長"},{"start":6565.168,"end":6567.091,"text":"報告院會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":6686.766,"end":6712.722,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":6715.196,"end":6742.551,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6745.86,"end":6746.14,"text":"主席﹚"},{"start":6865.438,"end":6867.403,"text":"一號、二號、二號沒問題"},{"start":6979.053,"end":6980.315,"text":"主席"},{"start":7017.739,"end":7020.043,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7098.285,"end":7121.101,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7219.175,"end":7219.656,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會,請王委員事件質詢。"},{"start":7263.116,"end":7290.219,"text":"謝謝主席我請行政院卓院長來請卓院長備詢卓院長早安卓院長你在施政報告的時候提到你的施政希望能夠達成"},{"start":7292.492,"end":7320.605,"text":"朝野和解共生兩岸和平共存與民族夥伴們能夠合作共贏那這個目標方向都非常正確非常的大氣所以我在質詢一開始我先送你一個小禮物那我認為"},{"start":7322.303,"end":7333.588,"text":"這三點方向目標你應該盡全力去達成去實現,要說到做到。是的。"},{"start":7353.251,"end":7372.543,"text":"海納百川海納百川在我們國內朝野和解共生跟對岸我們和平共榮跟所有民主的夥伴我們合作共贏好不好謝謝一定努力"},{"start":7383.325,"end":7409.964,"text":"非常感謝委員的鼓勵這就是我們共同努力的目標跟方向我們一定朝這個方向做最大的努力那也希望大家一起合作是好那院長再來我就針對當前我們國家最重要的幾大項目我認為這是當務之急我列了十大項目那我希望來就教於你"},{"start":7411.072,"end":7437.907,"text":"就是說第一點內閣從國發會主委劉靜清到經濟部長郭志輝甚至到差點阻隔的民間讀書會這位童先生啊他們啊幾乎成為核電自走炮他們"},{"start":7439.198,"end":7446.58,"text":"尤其是國部長上任前上任後一再的提倡乾淨的河"},{"start":7448.376,"end":7473.643,"text":"其實我們民主社會大家不同的看法不同的聲音他有不同方向思考這都正確的但是他不能說了乾淨的和以後講了一大堆以後拍拍屁股說這是他個人的立場個人的意見院長你要交代部長你報告郭部長講的是乾淨的能源對"},{"start":7477.196,"end":7504.683,"text":"他講的就是乾淨的核電嘛就是這個意思嘛那我認為不同的方向思考可以但是絕對不能說這是他個人的立場進到內閣就沒有閣員的個人立場閣員所有發表的政策說明談話都是內閣的立場政府的立場所以能不能約束他不要再做核能"},{"start":7506.215,"end":7529.262,"text":"自走炮啦那我要問院長的就是說所以當我們臺灣面對這麼好的機會AI大爆發黃仁勛先生也到我們臺灣幫我們組了AI國家隊所以此時此刻我們很明顯的面對未來這幾年"},{"start":7531.752,"end":7554.786,"text":"很快的可能我們用電量要大幅增加目前我們電絕對是夠但是未來是不是夠所以我想問左院長就是說你們內閣你們的策略地圖是什麼策略地圖是什麼如果我們面對AI的大爆發我們國家的需要"},{"start":7555.871,"end":7581.5,"text":"如果有必要要把河山廠研議的話是不是應該經過社會討論而不再是寡頭政治來決定應該透過社會討論我分三點簡短跟委員報告第一個我們邀請部會所長到內閣裡面來我們希望他把產業企業的管理的效率來管理政府那這一點我們還是繼續借用他們的長財"},{"start":7582.861,"end":7598.095,"text":"第二點對於核能的問題我們現在很清楚的一致的認為是我們必須對於這個核廢可以處理、核安得到保證、社會有共識才值得往下談任何的事情。我想部長也是非常清楚這個問題。"},{"start":7599.173,"end":7625.81,"text":"先前他們在談的我舉個例不是郭部長說的啦另外這位先生說的他說要引進芬蘭OL3的核電廠把他講的跟神蹟一樣啦他竟然說啊說啊那我們把核市場產品上面就放OL3芬蘭的核電廠欸 左主席 左院長"},{"start":7626.943,"end":7653.619,"text":"如果這在民間朋友們聽到覺得這是荒唐無稽也沒有知識核市場就位處於地震斷層把核市場挖掉上面再另外加一個任何OL3任何的核電廠都是錯誤的他連一個最基本的理解都沒有所以我希望我們的內閣不要再成為自走胖"},{"start":7654.363,"end":7682.449,"text":"好不好我希望我們能夠站在國家需要跟台灣的條件底下要經過我們對於新的知識我們開放來要經過充分的社會開放來接受新的知識那個部長你請問比方說我現在要談的要經過社會討論的就是比方說勞動部長他上任第一天他就講啊他說未來四年啊這個勞保我們就是每年撥補"},{"start":7685.447,"end":7685.467,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":7706.969,"end":7731.314,"text":"我們以景氣盼能夠做一個勞保一個適度的改革能夠讓勞保永續讓大家都領得到所以我認為不應該再這樣子如果只撥補而不談下去做改革的話我認為這兩個字送你鴕鳥是不是部長你既然上來鴕鳥兩個字你想清楚上會討論"},{"start":7732.794,"end":7756.511,"text":"那至於勞保怎麼改革比方說要多繳少領我覺得這絕對不可行那政府撥補這當然那未來只有兩條路一條就是說延後退休但是這個要經過社會討論因為現在已經延到65歲後續還能夠延幾年最重要的我個人的建議"},{"start":7757.472,"end":7772.805,"text":"我認為我們應該趕快加緊課徵富人稅。加緊課徵富人稅。加緊課徵富人稅才能夠達到社會的公平性。把課徵富人稅的收入預注到勞保。"},{"start":7773.888,"end":7788.906,"text":"如果要勞保的朋友們未來多獎少領我覺得這基本上都是不公平的社會也不會接受的所以對於要勞保延長、延退是不是要"},{"start":7789.746,"end":7816.353,"text":"趕快開啟社會討論廣納社會大眾對勞保改革他們的意見所以院長這能不能做到跟委員報告何部長對於勞保基金水位的高低一直嚴密的在了解跟掌控中那他也認為說波普應該只是一個很多改革當中政府必須扮演的角色所以政府會做到這一點波普本來就該做的啦"},{"start":7817.213,"end":7817.873,"text":"委員 容許讓我說明一下"},{"start":7844.588,"end":7844.608,"text":"委員﹚"},{"start":7866.421,"end":7881.113,"text":"您剛才講到少領多角少領不可行對不對可是現在社會上所有的討論都是要這種改革這個是我們不能同意的我是要強調這一點所以您不要誤會我不是講請你把話說清楚你剛剛這個說明有說跟沒說一樣好謝謝你我時間有限你請回還有院長"},{"start":7888.089,"end":7905.875,"text":"我們這個現在房價高漲到這個地步我認為始作俑者跟我們對銀行、金控公司他們授信放款的管理跟對利率這個調整其實是不對的"},{"start":7907.048,"end":7930.971,"text":"我們長年以來我們的銀行體系他們習慣性的把大筆資金用極低廉的利息借給一些不孝的建商讓這些建商藉由低利率吸取那麼龐大的社會資金他們去養地買地圈地所以"},{"start":7931.994,"end":7952.337,"text":"我們的後輩們年輕朋友們他們永遠心之所得永遠追不上房價我認為來自於社會大眾的銀行資金們應該要善加管理我們應該對於房貸族一般深斗小民青年朋友們"},{"start":7954.053,"end":7983.456,"text":"他們買房的利率應該壓低補貼他們這都正確但是對於建商尤其是不肖建商要嚴格控管對他們的壽性放款在這個部分其實這個莊部長你在任命了九大公營行庫的董事長總經理之後其實啊我看你都在專心"},{"start":7984.619,"end":8004.16,"text":"管國產管稅收啦管你的實質價啦這是好喔但是我覺得你對銀行利率的擴寡對九大公營行庫他們的管理我覺得嚴重不足所以我就不跟你多提啦那監管會主委"},{"start":8005.632,"end":8024.794,"text":"你新上任我知道你學富5G但你的專業在保險每次我跟你談到這個銀行利率控管的時候我覺得你們大概的意思就是說都共推到後面的中央銀行那左院長我是認為在對銀行的利率"},{"start":8026.175,"end":8043.044,"text":"這一部分莊銀郎確實有盡到他們的職責啦我們這位總裁確實有他金融的專業最近這一波第六波的對房市這個融資的控管他確實有盡了努力但我覺得除了"},{"start":8043.844,"end":8068.922,"text":"對於利率的調高以外要記住對於一般我們購屋的壽星階級青年朋友們要壓低利率補貼他們但是對於惡劣的建商尤其啊我現在提到我們在這個融資壽星銀行本來有一套ESG風險管理耶對這一家建築這家公司他們的ESG怎麼樣他們對環境影響對公司治理"},{"start":8074.549,"end":8098.606,"text":"ESG有風險的通通是貸款最高的這幾家建商。比方說在台北大大有名的、全國有名的新復發啦、基泰啦。欸!新復發一年到頭從我們台灣由南到北的工地都有它的公安事故,都造成嚴重的傷亡。"},{"start":8099.893,"end":8123.125,"text":"結果他的貸款他在十大惡劣建商裡面他是第一名十大惡劣建商我現在表列的這一張這十大惡劣建商他們的融資他們的負債已經高達九成結果我們"},{"start":8124.665,"end":8141.307,"text":"三十八家銀行尤其我最覺得無法接受的就是我們九大公銀行庫借這十大二列建商低利息借他不到兩趴吼都高達千億以上"},{"start":8142.412,"end":8166.23,"text":"所以院長我希望這個部分你能夠管一管你就責成我們的新任經管會主委讓他趕快進入管理那部長我希望你在任命九大公營行戶董事長總經理的時候能夠更謹慎而且既然任命了事後要對他們做追蹤管理可不可以"},{"start":8167.301,"end":8189.901,"text":"好既然你們上來了我同時再提另外一個危害我們台灣目前社會的就是這些二值的租賃公司院長從這個中租抵合到合論到育融這三家租賃公司已經佔了整個租賃市場超過90%"},{"start":8192.842,"end":8213.478,"text":"這三家公司的二列我姑且稱這三家叫做數條三兄弟啦數條三兄弟左手從我們的銀行借了五千億低利率喔1.7%右手帶放給我們需要的社會大眾高利貸18%"},{"start":8216.311,"end":8243.005,"text":"然後我們銀行眼睜睜的看著數條山兄弟未來的還款來源來自於吸收我們深斗小民的血汗錢吸收高利貸做他們還款來源天啊我們竟然做事這樣的罪惡在發生然後數條山兄弟他們還要年輕人父母親做寶還要"},{"start":8246.774,"end":8269.019,"text":"討債公司下去追討最壞的情況青年朋友們借了他工作餘命還有30年千刀萬里追對待我們的未來新世代這是何等的錯誤跟荒唐所以院長我希望你責成軍管會主委財政部長"},{"start":8270.236,"end":8296.014,"text":"不要再助纣為虐而且我們應該趕快立行政會趕快送來這個版本就是說融資註定公司管理法我們立這一部法然後把對於鼠條三兄弟跟這些融資註定公司的管理收回由經管會來管院長我這麼說你同不同意"},{"start":8297.006,"end":8312.55,"text":"任何的公司啦、機構啦都應該依法來執行它的業務所以在你說的這個委員說的這個部分應該受到公司法跟其他的法規有規範但是要立一個專法這是委員的期待啦另外就是我們對消費者的保護要加強"},{"start":8313.231,"end":8338.182,"text":"不要讓消費者誤信到不實的那個廣告或是不實的這個合約裡面去。我們不希望因此造成重大的社會問題。所以這兩個單位都應該要強力的去了解內容跟加強管理。對消費者的保護齁,不會負障啦。然後你說公司法管理,現在的金管會跟財政部就是一推四五六,就是推給說啊這個公司法。"},{"start":8338.982,"end":8364.874,"text":"院長你知道嗎?如果對薯條三兄弟只用公司法來管理是經濟部管我們全國有140萬家公司經濟部用公司法管140萬家薯條三兄弟只占140萬分之三你認為這樣的管轄夠嗎?我認為嚴重不足所以我希望專業的就歸專業管"},{"start":8366.415,"end":8392.281,"text":"該金融的就歸金管會那麼有一部分事務由放款端九大公營行戶他放最多九大公營行戶這十年來借了五千億給這數條三兄弟助紂為虐好啦各位部長請回來我時間有限那個主席抱歉我休息三秒鐘喝一下水"},{"start":8402.901,"end":8415.69,"text":"要多3秒嗎?我多喝了3秒算進去沒關係。投資教育就是投資未來。臺北科技大學跟中華民國同年,我們臺北我們可以不缺"},{"start":8427.967,"end":8445.123,"text":"一棟商場一棟百貨公司不缺高級辦公大樓不缺觀光飯店但是我們需要一所百年樹人的好大學就像是國立台北科技大學他們受到的委屈這60年來"},{"start":8446.704,"end":8470.262,"text":"他們本來13公頃的校地臺北共產時代4000位學生他們現在已經進步發展到13000位學生但是擠在9公頃的校地為什麼消失了4公頃因為他配合了臺北市這幾十年來的發展開闢了新生南路市民大道建國南路宗教登錄等等"},{"start":8471.022,"end":8497.925,"text":"所以一萬三千位優秀的北科大的師生就擠在那九公頃的校地裡面這三年前蔡總統已經有交代辦理要把建國啤酒廠的土地建國啤酒廠要升格改為商業區回饋出來的四層土地就交由國立台北科技大學無償來使用但是這個案子先前進"},{"start":8499.466,"end":8518.983,"text":"已經進行得如火如荼那因為新內閣上任突然嘎然而止我希望卓院長你能夠交代內政部跟教育部他們針對北科大現在校地的需求能夠趕快進一步把這個段點接上好不好"},{"start":8520.083,"end":8548.1,"text":"所以我知道行政院跟台北市政府這件事情曾經有過多次的協商那行政院也做了一些核定那這個核定的精神是會往一個比較開發性而且滿足學校的條件來走但是我們還要詳細了解這個內容教育部長應該了解這個情形或者是現在這個啤酒廠那個用地單位是台酒在財政部也應該有他的說明"},{"start":8549.32,"end":8571.971,"text":"那個財政部還是一樣抗拒嗎?跟委員報告我想建國啤酒廠裡面第一個他有所謂的歷史建築古蹟那這個部分是一定要保存跟維護的那另外其他的土地的運用目前來說也都有行政院以及跟台北市政府還有北科大都有協商那目前已經在辦理有關都市計畫變更的一個程序"},{"start":8572.651,"end":8595.738,"text":"那對於北科大教育所需要... 歷史建物的維護啊,北科大是專業,他有土木工程系、有建築系、有材料工程系、有設計系,他們對於歷史建物的維護修復,他們是專業啊,人家他們學校,他自己校內113年的學校,裡面歷史建物一堆,人家他們維護得很好。我要再次"},{"start":8596.667,"end":8615.858,"text":"院長請你告訴台九現在的主事者當你升格為商業地你必須捐回市城土地給政府這個捐回的市城是義務就像繳稅一樣哪有說繳了稅還指定稅金的用途"},{"start":8617.093,"end":8617.934,"text":"請工程會說明報告委員"},{"start":8633.813,"end":8656.384,"text":"這個都市計劃目前已經進入到由中央進委申請都市計劃變更的階段。那麼在上次的內政部都市計劃委員會開會的時候,他做成一個決議,就是會令成立專案小組就相關問題來釐清之後再於審議。那什麼問題呢?就是文資法裡面的規定,就是凡是都市計劃有變更,"},{"start":8665.372,"end":8674.261,"text":"我謝謝你的回答因為這些大夫我都知道了我最後院長我提醒大家不要被假的文資人士假的文資團體所欺騙"},{"start":8676.282,"end":8692.97,"text":"學校才是保存歷史建物最好、最有資格、最有公信力的單位就把這個校地無償撥用給學校來使用投資教育就是投資未來各位請回同時我要跟大家說同時也就是說撥撥牙醫的問題"},{"start":8695.931,"end":8724.893,"text":"我們對於我們未來的世代我們要維護公平的教育權現在有這些波波牙醫就海歸回來那就佔據了我們牙醫的名額我認為應該歸國的牙醫OK我們名額限制在要實習名額的十分之一不應該再讓它擴大那麼受教權教育權是我們國家之所以穩定進步的原因"},{"start":8725.914,"end":8741.06,"text":"受好的教育才讓年輕的一代他能夠藉由支持教育創造自己的人生改變他們家庭的命運所以我們一定要保持這個公平的教育權"},{"start":8742.02,"end":8746.184,"text":"所以院長我希望你聽進去這個部分能夠落實好不好?"},{"start":8764.881,"end":8792.051,"text":"好的委員剛剛那個北科大的問題我們跟委員報告我們一定盡速讓流程走下去走完讓他產生一個最後的結果出來往這個方向去走那波波牙醫這件事情那個部長謝謝你啦我時間有限因為我再來要提社子島開發那個院長社子島我相信你們去過都曉得社子島受了75年的委屈如果你晚上8點之後到社子島一看像個鬼島一樣"},{"start":8793.988,"end":8816.048,"text":"喔!這個不但燈光灰暗,它連一個基本的衛生下水道都沒有。部長你也在,社址島你知道,不要說醫院,連一個診所都沒有。這樣非人的生活,我認為應該立刻開發社址島。現在坊間有一個聲音說政府開發社址島是圖利社址島民。"},{"start":8817.41,"end":8820.494,"text":"政府開發這70年來開發了上千條上萬條的道路開發了上萬個社區圖立了幾百萬的臺灣人民這都對的為什麼過去"},{"start":8832.088,"end":8832.288,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":8850.29,"end":8854.051,"text":"現在是應該我們回頭去回饋照顧社子島居民的時刻了所以整體的開發應該是"},{"start":8879.176,"end":8906.449,"text":"現在這個生態設置島開發是低密度,它不但能夠還設置島民眾一個公道,同時也能夠開發周遭的設置地區,這個後港地區,葫蘆島地區,這些同時都可以得到相對於民間來集中資源來開發,所以這是正面的,我希望我們能夠正面來看待,"},{"start":8907.809,"end":8932.675,"text":"現在就應該是還社址島公道的一個時刻也希望臺北市政府能夠加速跟居民來做協調臺北市政府別人不敢講阿對社址島的開發他們真的很用心阿利潤市長已經案子送來了我希望內政部這個劉部長你們能夠謹慎的處理趕快做一個time table時間表出來趕快回應社址島的需求好不好"},{"start":8933.757,"end":8940.316,"text":"因為時間有限那個院長我簡單的把台鐵高鐵比一比那麼台鐵"},{"start":8942.082,"end":8965.295,"text":"全線1065公里高鐵只有348公里但是光是落實警告系統台鐵只有26處人家高鐵高達84處他只有350公里不到他竟然三倍的落實警告系統而且他光是災難防救這樣子的規劃他們"},{"start":8967.236,"end":8988.383,"text":"一年辦了98場臺鐵只辦11場所以難怪啊臺鐵一年事故傷亡人數32位耶高鐵零事故零傷亡那其他的營運更不用講營收臺鐵只有334億高鐵竟然高達將近500億498億員工人數更扯"},{"start":8992.825,"end":9019.034,"text":"台鐵15900人高鐵只需要4700人這樣的營收差距難怪台鐵一直賠錢42年來台鐵已經負債4000億這兩年台鐵已經公私化了那大家都以為哇那台鐵問題就迎刃而解解決的錯公私化只是他們進步改革的第一步而已所以院長我"},{"start":9020.748,"end":9023.851,"text":"身心障礙者我希望我們能夠落實聯合國要求的這個障礙者"},{"start":9043.447,"end":9071.233,"text":"全力公約裡面的自立生活也就是說現在身心障礙者他們要去受教的時候必須向教育部他們使用到了交通工具是交通部他們要去就業是向勞動部他們的長照是衛福部來管理我覺得分散這麼多對障礙者本身就是一個凌虐我希望我們行政院能夠下令成立統一窗口"},{"start":9071.773,"end":9071.793,"text":"時間到"},{"start":9112.846,"end":9120.131,"text":"好,謝謝王委員"},{"start":9126.527,"end":9141.092,"text":"謝謝卓院長。報告院會現在在議場二樓旁聽的是成功高中的同學,我們在此表達對他們的歡迎。那我們下一位質詢,邀請李燕秀委員質詢。"},{"start":9152.874,"end":9153.035,"text":"請卓院長備詢"},{"start":9166.292,"end":9193.664,"text":"議員好議員長好這個一路走來從在臺北市議會大學長你經歷了所有的角色資歷非常非常完整我們也期待你在行政院長任內表現可以跟過去一樣體恤民心站在民意的第一線喔好那我就今天我話不多說我直接因為時間非常短30分鐘我非常珍惜我今天質詢時間我長期關注相關的公費疫苗注射的接種部長當然邱太元"},{"start":9195.024,"end":9212.26,"text":"部長過去跟我都長期在慰喚,他長期知道我非常關注相關的疫苗政策。當然邱部長是加醫科的醫師,一定非常了解三段五期的醫療的照顧體系非常重要,特別是在初段的醫療照顧,它的CP值是最高的。"},{"start":9212.5,"end":9212.54,"text":"﹚第11屆第14會議"},{"start":9229.215,"end":9254.52,"text":"也是賴總統非常重視的一個相關在公共醫療政策相關的一些政策上他也非常重視他的意見所以他也辦了相關的臺灣論壇他也特別提到說在我們公共醫療政策當中比照我們現在國民醫療的健保的支出佔我們的GDP總比我們只有7.5日本有11.5韓國有10%"},{"start":9257.481,"end":9278.592,"text":"也就是說我們在醫療政策的支柱上相對的比較啞鈴國家我們相對是比較低的所以這個數字我想部長院長數字在那邊非常非常清楚所以接下來我就把我長期非常關注的幾項疫苗的政策我要請院長跟部長能不能支持"},{"start":9279.472,"end":9307.044,"text":"特別是我們科醫學會臺灣科醫學會就在111年的時候就提到對於國中男性特別今天有成功高中也在現場可以公費注射HPV的疫苗的接種那我們都知道口腔癌HPV就是口腔癌的疫苗相關的疫苗口腔癌現在已經是全國男性的十大癌症之一那口腔癌其實他的病毒比較不容易被發現然後檢查也不是常規檢查容易發現的感染目前"},{"start":9307.904,"end":9332.285,"text":"全世界58個國家都以公費疫苗在注射國中男性的接種疫苗那在臺灣目前我們有三個縣市也都有施打雲林縣澎湖縣跟嘉義市我去年在回到臺北市議會的時候我也建議蔣市長所以他今年9月份也要開始施打對於國中男性可以開始施打HPV疫苗這一塊"},{"start":9333.306,"end":9354.851,"text":"我希望不要有城市的各縣市的落差那這個也是我們十大的這個癌症疫苗在男性排名比所以這一塊部長院長可不可以承諾我有機會我們來評估是不是全國我們有公費疫苗可以來施打針對HPV的部分謝謝報告委員我們日前有一個內部的討論針對這個議題有個討論那衛夫這邊有他的進程跟他的說明"},{"start":9359.807,"end":9387.27,"text":"好謝謝院長首先感謝我們委員長期對我們民眾健康整體性的一個照顧的一個推動非常的敬佩那我們的總統跟院長其實都非常重視預防保證所以部長你只要直接回答有啊沒啊買啊買所以一定往這方面來努力那目前已經經過討論以後我們有將國中男生納入公會"},{"start":9388.462,"end":9389.863,"text":"除了這個之外,我們今年50歲到64歲,因為我們"},{"start":9412.261,"end":9434.821,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9435.061,"end":9462.603,"text":"這是一塊我疫苗診所長期關注再次強調非常希望50歲以上都可以施打然後另外一個13架就是高風險群大家都知道有一些高風險群包括是糖尿病肝硬化慢性腎病跟癌症的患者如果有機會高風險群13架跟23架我們也可以公費施打的話我相信對於未來健保的支出長遠"},{"start":9463.624,"end":9492.7,"text":"這都是預防醫療政策,也可以有一些節省進來。所以我也希望這方面我們可以有一個整體更進一步的規劃。院長可不可以?部長一定知道,以前在衛福文化這都跟同樣的想法,這個模式是一樣,所以院長可不可以朝這方向去思考?衛福已經針對這樣的議題有做過很多的研究了,但是衛福的這個進程還是要他說明一下。"},{"start":9493.624,"end":9508.022,"text":"是的,我想委員所提的這些建議都是非常需要,都是很好的,而且對於國民的健康是正向的,所以我們一定好好仔細研議。好,部長最後一個啦,就是那個肥爪啦,帶狀性泡疹,院長你一定聽到啦。"},{"start":9511.786,"end":9531.178,"text":"這個費用真的很高很高,我不敢說全國都可以公費施打,但我們也可以有第一步,也是高風險群,我們先試著來試辦一下,因為他一度被抓了帶狀性泡疹,他有可能是終身的疼痛,我不敢這樣,因為一劑五六千塊,第二劑八千塊,我們可不可以先試著"},{"start":9531.698,"end":9547.346,"text":"﹚"},{"start":9547.746,"end":9548.727,"text":"我們會以專家仔細來演繹"},{"start":9564.92,"end":9583.313,"text":"好,謝謝部長。接下來我要關注產駕的部分。院長,我們台灣的孕婦的憂鬱症其實機率非常高,憂鬱症的部分其實高達兩成。我們都知道台灣現在女性晚婚的機率非常高,特別是我們現在憂鬱症的狀況,"},{"start":9586.215,"end":9615.022,"text":"高齡產婦七位產後的憂鬱症婦女有一位有可能會自殺按照數據上現在這是公開的數據所以我們現在針對於年輕人有心理諮商的免費所以我也希望說有機會幫孕婦也爭取有一萬塊的心理諮商的服務讓有需要的孕婦個人也好或者是一些新手有這些傾向的夫妻他也可以接受一些心理諮詢這個都是在打造"},{"start":9615.742,"end":9615.862,"text":"為了促進"},{"start":9644.161,"end":9647.303,"text":"部長,這個我都知道,但是這不夠,這心理諮詢、電話、電話跟以前張老師一樣,那個心理諮詢師的功能"},{"start":9663.374,"end":9689.314,"text":"是不一樣的部長所以我要跟你強調因為我是女性我生過小孩所以我知道我曾經也有過一小小段時間有憂鬱症我也請教過心理諮商師所以我非常清楚知道他的重要性部長我們來研究看看好不好因為產後婦女的憂鬱症曾經有自殺的情況對孩子也不好我們每一個孩子只要照顧得好也要靠父母所以這個部分我們今天我們來訴考看看好不好有沒有機會"},{"start":9692.136,"end":9711.785,"text":"我們一直在推動青少年的心理智商。前一陣子跟一些媽媽在討論這個事情的時候,他們倒有提到對孕婦的心理的輔導這個工作。我覺得我們可以應該要深入的去了解目前政府可以做更多更好的是什麼事情。"},{"start":9712.165,"end":9727.297,"text":"所以院長有交代你要去思考這個經費上的資質心理諮商是我們看我們能怎麼做初步能怎麼看預算的執行但是我覺得要跨出第一步好不好好感謝部長那我接下來就要請那個勞動部的何部長"},{"start":9729.058,"end":9740.947,"text":"院長因為我是女性我又生過小孩我非常知道打造育兒的環境我目前8週的產假以前是工廠法民國18年8週的產假過去是100民國18年的時候工廠法8週的產假我們現在是113年2024年我們還在8週的產假臨近國家其實都已經"},{"start":9753.038,"end":9766.955,"text":"十週十二週十四週我不敢跟那麼多國家比但是不分朝野黨派的委員都覺得臺灣的產價產價事實上是要延長的所以我之前也到委員會去質詢過部長所以我有提出說薪資公共化"},{"start":9768.12,"end":9788.769,"text":"你既然勞保波普也是一個改革的政策我更認為薪資公共化就是從波普開始跨出那第一步雖然我的版本是14週我覺得你們行政院也提出誠意出來無論你覺得可以10週12週那都是第一步這就是政府的決心"},{"start":9789.963,"end":9819.643,"text":"我覺得臺灣現在少子化這麼少今年才13萬人家都在笑說臺灣的寵物登記都100多萬每年都100多萬所以我覺得值很重要讓婦女願意生小孩早一點結婚早一點生小孩這一塊我真的苦口婆心我們過去有許部長我們這一塊沒有做到我們又是一個女性的何部長我真的希望在產假的部分但是事實上完全沒有跨出第一步"},{"start":9820.043,"end":9837.536,"text":"所以院長,你可不可以直接交代下去,要有一些競爭要進行討論。你們不是說要打開社會溝通嗎?人民優先誠意溝通。人民溝通的程序在哪裡?你根本都沒有溝通過。所以無論是跟產業界溝通,其實心智公共化就是內部溝通而已。"},{"start":9837.816,"end":9837.836,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":9854.451,"end":9872.871,"text":"院長可以嗎?不是跟我溝通喔!勞僱雙方,啊你撥補的話有時候就是你財主單位就可以撥補啊,你不要說勞僱雙方而已啦有時候產業界溝通是一塊,但是其他的手段,你有工具嘛"},{"start":9873.752,"end":9900.015,"text":"對不對,一定,你很清楚嘛,你的資歷非常完整,所以我才說,你只要願意,你交辦下去,其實你們工具很多都可以做得到。好,因為我今天時間有限了,我知道,那其他的你薪資來,你也可以撥補嘛,因為他說撥補也是一個改革,勞保撥補也是一個改革,那你薪資,產價薪資公共化也可以用撥補的方式我們跨出那第一步。"},{"start":9900.776,"end":9902.639,"text":"大家各退一步,我撥補一周,然後資方撥補一周,那也是一種方向嘛。這個就是談判的過程啦。阿不要再說不講,繼續講幾句報告。"},{"start":9912.421,"end":9937.498,"text":"過去朝野黨派立委都提出很多版本出來但是從來沒有溝通過就是立院提立院高興了但是從來都沒有動過我不希望左行政團隊也是一個這樣子的團隊我對你有期許我們已經在討論在落實這樣子的討論了接下來院長因為我已經議題很多我接下來要問危老條例過去你是台北市議員"},{"start":9939.096,"end":9961.504,"text":"曾經當過臺北市議員臺北全國可以更漂亮每次地震過後我們都說都更很重要我要提一個危老條例現在已經實施8年我們目前在危老條例重建數只有3600件我覺得院長每一個條例實施到一個階段的時候我們都要檢討為什麼3600件只有3600件你對3600件你滿不滿意"},{"start":9968.246,"end":9988.683,"text":"你覺得可不可以更多更好?我們當然預期希望能夠高一點。對,那我們可不可以去檢視說他其實30年以上的屋齡房屋只在如果用30年屋齡以上房屋用3600件計算的話他只有達到萬分之七。所以危老條例當時是一個好的政策我們應該去檢討他到底問題出在哪裡?為什麼申請危老條例的人這麼少?臺灣都更的腳步這麼緩慢當然"},{"start":9994.548,"end":10017.295,"text":"﹚國會議"},{"start":10018.596,"end":10034.484,"text":"紅黃單其實我們有一些補助所以我覺得包括紅黃單他不是我不希望他只是因為0403的地震的補助當然補助我覺得全國都可以去檢視但是或者是你現在的政策工具就是降低他都更的門檻"},{"start":10035.825,"end":10063.413,"text":"那除了降低渡客門檻以花蓮的天王星為例他之前在2018年的時候也被貼黃單後來施壓給混亂沒了黃單就撤了這一次今年的04、03地震之後他還是就傾斜了所以凸顯證明有時候擦肢抹粉其實效果還是有限真正要讓人民住的安全我們還是鼓勵重建"},{"start":10064.213,"end":10090.878,"text":"所以說違老條例我一直要拜託部長拜託院長我們要去檢討就是說我們有什麼樣政策工具或者違老條例要不要去做調整讓人民的意願可以加快或意願更高比如說容居率的增加還有中繼住宅我們社宅裡面要有更多的中繼住宅讓改建的過程當中有地方可以住特別很多長輩你叫他說搬去很遠的地方做都更"},{"start":10091.358,"end":10092.178,"text":"拜託您我們可不可以進一步的去做檢討"},{"start":10108.044,"end":10122.698,"text":"是,非常謝謝委員關心。我想你點到重點,危老跟都更的部分,最大的重點是在於裡面居住的住民的溝通不足。如果你要降低整體的同意,我們可以做,其實除了溝通我剛剛講了,溝通其實是最難的,但是你的政策工具,"},{"start":10125.401,"end":10144.889,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10144.889,"end":10169.48,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":10169.6,"end":10169.98,"text":"因為現在包租代管的政策"},{"start":10194.082,"end":10194.102,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":10212.569,"end":10215.11,"text":"我下一個政策要問能源相關的狀況,院長最近很多委員關注能源政策,"},{"start":10240.964,"end":10264.139,"text":"能源政策已經不是我們在立法院在野黨關心,我相信執政黨也很關心,產業界也很關心,美國商會也很關心,要做AI,2028之後,不可能到2020光是做一個電廠,也要花5、6年的時間。光是做一個AI的企業投資,可能是一個AI的數據中心,它是花20億美金。"},{"start":10266.621,"end":10282.651,"text":"如果是我投資一個上百億的產業我要放在臺灣我就不可能讓我的產業不確定性所以穩定的供電穩定的電價它是最大兩塊也是美國商會提到最重要兩件事情所以我如果投資20億上百億AI產業放在臺灣的話我希望它是一個長久可以讓我留在這邊的地方"},{"start":10292.213,"end":10306.429,"text":"五十年前的政府可以看到有這個智慧可以看到台積電我也希望左政府賴政府可以看到臺灣未來有一個穩定供電你沒有穩定供電人家就是不來這是很現實的問題所以"},{"start":10308.231,"end":10310.893,"text":"我當然了解委員的擔心但是我們也有我們的方式"},{"start":10336.612,"end":10362.5,"text":"你現在說的東西沒有辦法說服大眾院長你現在你的說法沒有辦法說服大眾不要說臺灣對於桃園輪流供電小琉球在停電連美國商會都對於你們的綠能接下來合二合三不能演繹大家都想說到底電從哪裡來我投資一個上百億或20億美金的AI公司但是2030之後電不知道在哪裡人家當然會覺得我"},{"start":10364.201,"end":10364.421,"text":"請部長說明一下。"},{"start":10394.105,"end":10418.491,"text":"那等一下我的主題在下一個喔院長今天我關注到去年總統在選舉的時候他到台大去參加校園馬拉松的論壇他提有學生提到說打仗的時候電力中斷怎麼辦他說相關單位正在他當時是賴總統賴副總統他說正在規劃用核電作為緊急備用的選項"},{"start":10420.595,"end":10435.067,"text":"打仗的時候電力中斷怎麼辦?他說用核電做緊急備用的選項。我要請問部長跟院長這件事情現在是不是還在持續討論當中?打仗的話電力中斷是不是還是用核電?你知道嗎?"},{"start":10436.257,"end":10456.752,"text":"第一個我們希望那個前提不會發生。我也不希望會發生,但是備戰你要有必要,現在還在備戰狀態嗎?核電作為緊急備用選項。這個是賴清德對學生說的,在台大說的。是,當時核三廠的運作是正常在運作,但現在我們面臨核三廠要處理的時候,那我們必須面對現在核三廠一號機要處理的問題。"},{"start":10458.999,"end":10481.152,"text":"所以就不是核電了是不是?我現在要確認這個答案。打仗的時候,因為這是,我現在問你是賴清德講的,不是我講的。是,我也知道,核電廠除役是法定的年限,到了要除役。如果要研議的話,它必須經過一個安全檢查的程序。這個程序是3年半到5年,這個時間是不可以發電的。所以也就是說,打仗的時候電力中斷了?"},{"start":10483.254,"end":10500.822,"text":"這個3年半到5年是不可以發電這個核三廠的一號機所以也就是說好院長院長那我就接著你的話也就是說核二核三已經停役了所以如果打仗的時候電力中斷的時候我們也沒有所謂的核電機組做緊急備用的選項這個選項已經不見了"},{"start":10505.984,"end":10532.581,"text":"我知道,我現在不是問你,因為當時的臺大學院說如果電力中斷怎麼辦,所以當時的賴副總統回答說有,我們是要把核電做暫時備用選項,所以我是拿當時賴副總統的話來問你們。所以你現在回答我的是說核電已經不是選項了。如果經過了安全檢查它還是一個可以用的話,那也許是一個選項,但目前這個程序無法開始啊。"},{"start":10533.214,"end":10533.695,"text":"當然是國家會有準備的啊"},{"start":10557.498,"end":10581.375,"text":"什麼準備?就是對核能你會有別的準備方式?這三、五年當中,核三廠和核二廠要運作來發電,目前看是沒有,在法律的限制下是不可能的。我尊重,我尊重,但是這個耐心的人,那我打仗的話,對於暫時打仗時的核能用電,你們的準備方向有嗎?我只問你有沒有?"},{"start":10582.896,"end":10605.385,"text":"他能夠經過安全檢查那是未來的問題所以我們有句話說未來的問題來解決今天的問題是有點困難我不希望打仗但是他有可能是是進程的問題院長他有可能是進程的問題所以我才問你選項他還是選項嗎那如果是打仗的話你剛剛講說三五年對於核三好了核三的"},{"start":10605.925,"end":10606.045,"text":"和珊是選項"},{"start":10628.158,"end":10637.934,"text":"三、五年當中他不可能發電所以打仗時間他也不會是選項他沒有辦法發電怎麼會是選項呢他是先停機然後檢查"},{"start":10639.161,"end":10659.311,"text":"是時間到他就必須除役。除役五年前就要展開演講的就是他不會是選項嗎?所以當時我覺得賴副總統他不應該那他當時就不應該在台大跟學生這麼說因為他非常清楚和二和三身為副總統以前是行政院長三、五年在未來的核能有新的核能發展的時候那是又另外一種討論了"},{"start":10660.605,"end":10683.231,"text":"議員的問題是三、五年內會打仗,那結果我們覺得這應該不是現在﹖我當然希望不是,但是我是說要備戰啊,所以我才問你嘛,所以我才問你嘛,隨時都要備戰,如果斷電力中斷﹖從現在的發電機組發展更多的綠能,但這個都是備案之一啊,可是我們發展更多的再生能源,這都是備案啊﹖"},{"start":10683.976,"end":10711.883,"text":"院長我很不希望因為我們都非常我們都熟悉彼此非常久我都覺得這個問題我也不是在刁難你我只是不希望發生打仗我更不希望發生電力中斷但是這是去年賴副總統在選舉跟臺大學生的回應那我也很憂心萬一真的打上電力中斷我們的備用電是從哪裡來所以我不知道你們的準備方案是什麼我就幫國人所有的產業界請問你們"},{"start":10713.903,"end":10714.424,"text":"最後一個"},{"start":10735.177,"end":10764.14,"text":"部長跟院長那個前一陣子部長提到說未來要讓臺電自負盈虧不再撥補這個政策到底是不是行政院的政策也是賴總統的政策臺電要自負盈虧各部會要自己回到撥補除了穩住民生跟小家電用電未來大戶要讓他們自己去調整要調整電價這到底在電價部分是不是賴政府"},{"start":10765.034,"end":10768.738,"text":"做政府的方向。先請部長說明。報告委員,這個電價的部分由這個電價審議委員來決定。所以這個"},{"start":10776.967,"end":10800.208,"text":"這一部分是有法規定的。但是這個是你講的,未來要讓臺電自負盈虧,未來波普的部分,這個就未來要多調整大戶用電,然後讓這個臺電自負,這個要講求成本。你講求成本效益在民間企業我覺得有你的邏輯,但是這個是不是未來整個政府的方向?"},{"start":10800.808,"end":10815.955,"text":"未來各部會,醫院就由衛福部自己補,學校就由教育部自己補貼經費,然後未來就是多調整大戶用電,因為這個政策是沒有跟行政院討論過。院長你知道這個政策,你知道部長講過這個話嗎?沒關係來來來,我先問院長,沒關係沒關係來來來,部長你不要占用我時間,你一直講那個主席時間暫停。"},{"start":10828.822,"end":10845.395,"text":"我剛剛說過我們請部長跟很多的閣員進來希望他用企業管理的精神來管理政府讓我們更有效率但是我想問說這個政策影響非常大所以我想知道這個是不是未來的整個用電的整個不再補"},{"start":10846.155,"end":10846.915,"text":"院長我知道你要講什麼但是我覺得臺電"},{"start":10875.149,"end":10890.235,"text":"來自企業界就是成本自行吸收這個我清楚他的邏輯重視成本效益我是清楚但是臺電肩負著國家不合理的能源政策買電買得很貴有很多過去的原因我就不再提了"},{"start":10892.051,"end":10918.259,"text":"不是不合理的能源政策,國家發展綠能的政策。包括綠能我也支持,但是包括未來用電大戶的調漲對於整體的經濟影響也會非常大。這個你們自己去決定,但是從央行那邊他根本都不知道你要調整這件事情。所以我覺得一個沒有很成熟的政策丟出來其實是非常危險的啦。"},{"start":10922.351,"end":10942.162,"text":"未來的電價還是以穩定民生的用電為最大的原則優先。那大用戶多負擔一點,我想在整個社會的觀感跟公平性來看也應該是正確的。好,院長我最後一個問,今年9月電價到底要不要漲?因為你上個禮拜回答其他委員說朝向穩定的方向,到底要不要漲?"},{"start":10943.659,"end":10969.799,"text":"當然是店家審議委員會在處理,但是基於總統的考量...行政院會,經濟部會送一個版本,審議委員會只是同意或不同意而已,到底9月份要不要講,因為院長,這個一講,央行可能又要升息,因為通膨會起來,央行都好緊張,所以這影響通膨權貴很嚴重,你的薪資今年漲3、4%,全部人民實施薪資全部都被吃掉了,所以實施薪資總薪資是倒退的。"},{"start":10977.571,"end":10981.232,"text":"Yes or no for you."},{"start":11004.518,"end":11025.914,"text":"好,謝謝我們"},{"start":11029.001,"end":11053.855,"text":"時間大了,然後再請部長跟這個李委員做補充。我們謝謝李委員的質詢。下一位請陳雪生委員質詢。謝謝主席。是不是請行政院卓院長?卓院長請備詢。"},{"start":11064.506,"end":11091.927,"text":"陳委員好陳委員早,首先恭喜您農任新任院長,非常高興今天主要大概有三個單元向你請教,一個是最重要就是馬祖大橋,那麼第二個是靶場,第三個就是土地的一個轉型正義我想提到馬祖大橋之前,先跟院長說明一下,馬祖原來小小的地方有兩座機場"},{"start":11093.697,"end":11116.82,"text":"那麼這兩座機場都是軍用機場轉型的,我們的南竿機場原來是運輸機、空投物品用的,它大概有1500公尺,它在山頂上四面都是黃海,第二座機場在北竿機場,北竿機場跑到1150公尺,跑到非常的短。"},{"start":11117.731,"end":11145.614,"text":"所以他的限載量72個人只能做50個人左右因為要視貨物的重量來決定那麼北竿機場成立以後大概飛機失事兩次飛機失事兩次大概我弟弟在內我親弟弟五個人一家全部罹難所以我在擔任立法委員的時候"},{"start":11146.363,"end":11171.204,"text":"就極力推動飛安的問題也就是希望馬祖兩座機場能夠有一座標準的機場這兩座機場都是非常不安全的機場人家說布丹的機場是全世界最危險的但是我覺得我們馬祖兩座機場是不合格的機場所以才有這個山西機場一個合格機場的倡議飛行員飛馬祖都要兩位正駕駛才能夠飛"},{"start":11175.492,"end":11202.43,"text":"那麼在蘇院長的時候已經提出來了提出來以後蘇院長也同意後來到陳建仁院長那麼這個機場最後北竿機場207億那麼也在陳院長任內已經把它合訂了他需要的工期需要7年3個月那問題來了上次在選舉期間一直針對掀蓋機場先做大橋"},{"start":11205.199,"end":11230.505,"text":"所以執政黨的候選人不停提出質疑,但是本席對這個問題非常困擾。為什麼?因為我提出來的本來就是要先做馬祖大橋,這跟蘇院長也好陳建源院長也好,我們的意見是一致的。問題主控權不在我,也不在縣政府。這個機場的興建主要是民航局主政。"},{"start":11231.547,"end":11259.401,"text":"大橋的興建是我們交通部的公路局主政所以不在縣政府那民眾提出來說興建北竿機場需要7年3個月那這一個空窗期他們要到南竿要坐船到南竿去坐飛機還有他們的機位還有他們在地人口的就業等等問題都提出了質疑所以縣長也跟我勒我們極力的也在"},{"start":11260.669,"end":11288.377,"text":"對當地的民眾進行安撫當然一定會有配套的一個措施那麼執政黨候選人也質疑我就是說先做機場還是先做大橋那我的立場當然是先做大橋因為大橋把它完成以後然後這個可以把兩岸就是南竿跟北竿這個民眾能夠輸運當然不只是民眾的輸運這裡面軍事各方面的配電、水、電"},{"start":11292.229,"end":11313.706,"text":"醫療、警政全部都結合在一起所以我希望先做馬祖大橋但是這個馬祖大橋,好現在我跟院長報告馬祖大橋我從106年開始推動我想跟院長報告的是學生從第三屆國大代表然後經歷了兩屆的縣長再經歷了四屆的立委我想"},{"start":11319.059,"end":11347.479,"text":"一共26年執政的時間對馬祖最熟悉的對馬祖的宏觀、遠見應該是我本人所以我覺得這個基礎建設對馬祖來講是非常非常的重要所以在此特別跟院長提出報告那麼這個大橋106年我們希望加入前瞻建設計畫那麼時任院長的賴清德總統同意"},{"start":11348.294,"end":11374.915,"text":"也同意,那麼臨江縣的南北方靠海大橋可行性評估還有綜合計畫經過我們全國最有名的也是供給力最好的四溪工程規劃公司他們承包經過兩年的鑽探可行性評估等等所有手續全部完備,全部完備那麼到了110年我們就開始抱怨了由交通部開始抱怨,縣政府開始抱交通部"},{"start":11376.092,"end":11404.931,"text":"那麼到了110年,第三次抱怨,111年行政院秘書長有含附,說再檢討本案。就經費的部分,就公法的部分,也就是公法有沒有困難的部分,那麼提出來。那麼一直在裡面打太極拳,轉來轉去,上上下下,大概有三年的時間了。"},{"start":11406.622,"end":11435.84,"text":"最後國發會公主委把他送到英國英商的奧亞納工程顧問公司他們得標再去評估做地倉班的公認但是據我的了解這個公司大概只有500萬去得標500萬怎麼樣去做鑽探對海底這不可能的事情所以他們回頭又來問世襲的施董說這裡面的問題在哪裡施董說沒有問題"},{"start":11437.025,"end":11465.11,"text":"那在工程上技術上沒有問題的話我又去找了這個金門的王董金門大橋的城商王董我說你多少錢能飆他300億一定得飆當然今天核定的是可信性評估是288億他300億一定可以所以我評估最近公財上講缺工等等350億應該沒問題那我們的評估也就分10年因為這供給要10年"},{"start":11465.95,"end":11493.017,"text":"我想由我們公路總局分十年一年大概不過35億我想政府非常重視偏鄉離島我想是不是請院長能夠幫忙找一日核定因為把大橋的案子找一日核定因為機場已經核定了我希望順序上能夠做一點調整先做大橋大橋做好以後北竿跟南竿的民眾就互通了"},{"start":11493.717,"end":11518.612,"text":"互動以後開始做北竿機場的建設北竿機場的建設完成了我們南竿機場把它廢掉或是做其他的用途因為它的面積蠻大的那這樣子的話讓馬祖未來的子孫給他們留下一條非常好的後路這是最重要的基礎建設我希望我們院長能夠育成我想現在也是我的好朋友"},{"start":11519.52,"end":11544.699,"text":"我們今天當然你當院長我非常高興在民間的時候我們也非常的相處非常的融合那麼這個長程主要大概3.1公里攻擊他講是8年但是我評估要10年10年左右賴總統在行政院長的時候到馬祖去他也做了很多的承諾他說經費不是問題"},{"start":11548.797,"end":11572.142,"text":"經費不是問題,院長曾經講,然後在副總統候選人到馬祖去的時候曾經提示過,攸關馬祖未來百年發展大切的橋是馬祖人應得的,大橋按在自己的手中推動,一定會全力促成。"},{"start":11573.001,"end":11600.098,"text":"我想賴總統在院長的時候講的話,在副總統的時候講的話,我想他一起來記得。那麼卓院長到馬祖區的時候,我也跟卓院長當面也報告這個案子。我想卓院長也非常認真努力,也希望能夠觸及實現。那現在我是不是請賴院長觀賞一段影片。這段影片是我們這個橋如果做成了大概是什麼樣的一個地貌。"},{"start":11605.233,"end":11632.516,"text":"馬祖大橋建設串聯南北竿,整合南北竿資源,銜接主要空運及海運廠站。串聯馬祖地區景點,整合舊衣、舊學、舊業資源,公職水深及初步地質調查。海域最深達60公尺,其餘水深落在30至40公尺。"},{"start":11633.732,"end":11641.142,"text":"海床覆土深,以東側較淺,西側較深。橋址大多覆土為10公尺以內。"},{"start":11642.774,"end":11670.522,"text":"復土層下方,其為堅硬岩層,東側淺,西側深。公址鄰近既有南北竿機場。受到機場未來發展的限制,橋面及附屬設施限高為海平面上57公尺。橋樑跨越既有航道,橋下需滿足通航高度之需求。馬祖大橋,採用粵粒混凝土相形樑橋。"},{"start":11674.49,"end":11693.062,"text":"畫徑約140到200公尺起點位於南竿環保路規劃設置P字路口岔出橋面設置中央格欄雙向各一快車道及一機慢車道寬一公尺人行道"},{"start":11701.519,"end":11727.715,"text":"橋下航道採雙孔單向配置並設置導航及防撞設施大橋向北連接北竿尼姑山西路後進入陸域段範圍陸域段配合地形以陸體及橋樑形式配置"},{"start":11733.672,"end":11755.228,"text":"總點則銜接至白沙港南碼頭。馬祖大橋建設將提供南北竿全天候、快捷、穩定、運輸的路廊、 完善馬祖地區道路交通網、串聯南北竿一日生活圈、 促進馬祖地區的觀光發展。"},{"start":11756.921,"end":11783.824,"text":"馬祖大橋優美的外形搭配在地壯闊的海景將成為馬祖最吸引人的地標。馬祖歡迎名單列領。好,謝謝院長。澎湖有個澎湖到西宇的大橋。金門有大金門到小金門的大橋。我前天又從金門大橋又走了一遍。那麼"},{"start":11785.114,"end":11814.256,"text":"我想我們偏鄉離島大金門連接小金門金門的土地馬上就漲了我想馬祖南竿是我們政經中心那麼現在土地已經飽和了蓋旅館蓋不下去了現在不是一味難求馬祖在看藍眼淚的時候不是一味難求而是一個住屋難求你要去租一個房間很困難所以他已經發展到極限了需要北竿的土地那麼來做三星級的旅館"},{"start":11815.424,"end":11842.795,"text":"我想從這個澎湖大橋也好,金門大橋也好,我在在我想我們馬祖未來長遠的計畫,我希望把這個橋連貫起來,把北竿的土地做最有效的開發。那麼蘇院長曾經講過一句話,蘇賢院長講說,我們要做,要做得比金門更好。那麼這個東坯的這個王董啊,為什麼?要去邀標啊。"},{"start":11843.379,"end":11872.308,"text":"不要說等一下288億、300億、你講了400億沒有人來標等一下這個問題就出來了至少起碼有一家了嘛是不是所以我覺得我非常的放心所以工人技術上的問題我想殷商大概八九月份資料就回來我評估殷商他只有500萬得標他這裡面有很多的機具要測試海底、海床等等的一些東西海流、水流等等所以他都要從試起來"},{"start":11873.712,"end":11902.802,"text":"施希是我們國內頂尖的顧問設計公司施董也不停的跟我講絕對沒有問題絕對沒有問題那麼經費我想350億左右啊2818我們給他漲到350億好了黃董則說只要300億他就來做所以我想這個院長我們也是好朋友你現在也是老長官所以我想聽聽您對這個大橋的看法"},{"start":11904.493,"end":11928.002,"text":"謝謝委員首先對委員令地跟家屬遭遇空安的問題我們表示非常的遺憾但也因為這樣子知道委員長期關心非安的問題所以對北幹機場南幹機場委員的關心我們都非常的清楚那現在北幹機場已經要進行整件的改善照委員所說要7年3個月將近8年的時間要整件改善這個北幹機場"},{"start":11929.002,"end":11954.579,"text":"那至於馬祖大橋從一開始大家到現場看經過工程單位顧問單位去看看結果他確實存在很多工程技術上的複雜以及對這種海事工程的重大的挑戰這個目前都是還在很慎重的評估當中當然過去我們到現場去看都認為有一個橋就是連接南北竿"},{"start":11955.66,"end":11956.661,"text":"南崗機場未來的走向如何?"},{"start":11982.363,"end":11986.505,"text":"市長現在問題在我們的機場已經核定了,它大概建設計畫需要兩年到三年的時間。"},{"start":12003.747,"end":12025.328,"text":"會議拜託委員長是不是在最近等殷商的評估回來以後,第三方的公正報告出來以後,能夠趕快把馬祖大橋合定。我也希望在順序上馬祖大橋先建,建得差不多的時候我們再來啟動北竿機場的興建計畫,所以這樣子的話也沒有政治上的問題出現。"},{"start":12026.363,"end":12048.634,"text":"因為民眾他覺得會恐慌,為什麼他要到南竿來坐船?八年的時間不是短短的三年或是兩年,他可以忍耐,所以這一點我想請院長幫忙好不好?因為時間的關係我想,沒關係部長我在交通委員會我還可以再探討好不好?因為時間的關係。下面的問題就是北竿長崎靶場牽涉到國防部。"},{"start":12053.191,"end":12081.307,"text":"這個靶場跟院長報告,它在我們的淡黃區,這個淡黃區的周邊是什麼呢?是國中、國小、衛生所、鄉公所、運動中心、運動場也在那裡,靶場就在正中央。這個靶場你看能不能夠存在,就您的眼光去看,我這樣跟您的敘述,這個靶場在這些東西的中間,你看行不行,你看。"},{"start":12082.069,"end":12086.451,"text":"國防部因為它是北甘地區唯一完整的輕重兵器的實彈設計訓練靶場所以如果說要"},{"start":12112.045,"end":12138.718,"text":"要把它拿掉的話,我們要求一定是要有另外一個新的靶場。那所以現在是在封山這個地區有找到一個適合靶場的一個預定地。我想我也應該是很清楚。但是這個靶場在召開這個說明會的時候好像也有部分不同的這個意見。所以我們是秉持待拆待建先建後裁。就是說我們一定要有一個"},{"start":12143.449,"end":12162.053,"text":"部長,您知道這個方案要多少錢嗎?待拆待建要多少錢?您知道嗎?待拆待建,我們現在評估好像是兩塊地,AB兩塊地,這個有一塊地是4億多我告訴你,第一個方案是5億,第二個方案是10億,現在的靶場"},{"start":12164.744,"end":12185.019,"text":"就是一個把鉤,貼幾塊紙,然後阿兵哥在距離100公尺到200公尺放個沙包,槍架在上面,啪啪啪啪啪,打共匪打不死啊,打我們自己,打那個把兵啊,一槍就命中了,準得狠,準得狠啊,正中央腦袋,這樣一個破破爛爛的靶場,"},{"start":12186.587,"end":12214.985,"text":"你要先政府待拆待建而且還要先建後拆這怎麼可能我已經提了8年了歷任國防部長我都提了院長您看看你這個東西值得5億或是10億嗎他有一個臺灣地區地方政府舉辦公共工程拆遷國軍營區設施處理原則這個原則要改這個原則不改國防部鐵板一塊一定要待拆待建"},{"start":12215.748,"end":12243.467,"text":"我曾經在邱部長任內我告訴他我們的國中蓋好了我們的醫院蓋好了運動中心蓋好了我不讓靶場在裡面打任何一發子彈打的話我把民眾排在那邊睡覺躺在馬路上我們國防安全國軍的訓練是非常重要的我已經講了八年了嘛你們都不動這裡不是台南的砲兵學校台南砲兵學校可以蓋五個現代化的靶場"},{"start":12245.95,"end":12262.981,"text":"部長,您可能不知道吧,所以院長你說說看,這個巴掌擺在這裡一定不可以嘛,怎麼可以勒?一定要牽走嘛,那你現在說先見後差,然後來個待差待見,你叫縣政府拿你來的錢?"},{"start":12263.641,"end":12292.203,"text":"我們當然會關心居民生活的安寧跟學生的安全,這個一定要關心的。那你說8年到現在至少國防部的進度我所了解他已經提出了兩三個地區在場地在做選擇,他們選擇了其中的一件就是封山地區,那現在這個經費的問題還在做一些評估。這個要請主席出另外撥款,你按照這個原則不改,這個原則不改他把場就不拆。"},{"start":12293.459,"end":12302.609,"text":"他就不走,他就不走。不走的話,軍民一定發生衝突嘛。馬祖是軍民感情最融合的一個地方。"},{"start":12303.965,"end":12305.767,"text":"院長,他第一個方案要五億。"},{"start":12331.96,"end":12359.962,"text":"第二個方案要10億,你那個靶場值5億嗎?我看值五千萬都還不值得啊。哈?你要我戴劍,笑死人啊。全場所有的首長們來評評你嘛。第一個你要不要搬走?第二個新的靶場應該比較好的設備而不是只是把它這樣拆了以後就隨便找一個地方。那個地啊,裡面還有老百姓的地在裡面。所以要再進一步的溝通啊。所以這個我想請院長重視一下好不好?"},{"start":12360.595,"end":12388.573,"text":"我每次提啊,每次都不理我。那現在我們已經有程度,跟委員報告至少有一個地點,我們就在做努力。蘇院長那時候總書記我也提了。陳建元院長那時候我也提了。那國防部都不理啊,就以這個理由,以這個原則,准此原則辦理。地方的指揮官也是這樣,他也沒辦法啊。所以這個拜託一下,部長。您回去研究一下,我覺得如果有困難啊,你要跨部會的請行政院主席或是財政部啊,要專案撥款給你來處理這個事情。"},{"start":12390.503,"end":12396.384,"text":"第三個問題就是土地的公平正義。報告院長你知道阿兵哥跟國有財產局在馬祖佔領我們多少土地你知道嗎?"},{"start":12420.409,"end":12447.509,"text":"你不知道我來跟你報告在馬祖地區的公有土地的比例是比較高百分之八十都是他們的啊我們縣政府啊老百姓只有百分之十幾還有未登陸的土地動不動啊國產署去告我們老百姓我們還想告他咧我們還想告國產署欸你是強盜啊你是土匪還是強盜比共產黨還壞啊是不是可以這樣嗎我們都口不出惡言我都不想去講這個話了"},{"start":12448.915,"end":12476.026,"text":"財政部你可以這樣子搞嗎?上次已經質詢過一次,部長你也上台了我有請你回答嗎?你們回去以後我最近了解只有兩個案了現在國產署告老百姓的只剩下兩個案我說那很好啊,我非常窩心什麼事你知道嗎?一共二十幾個案有二十個案判老百姓輸全部都是輸沒有一個贏的"},{"start":12477.642,"end":12502.489,"text":"我真的想跳樓啊我氣死了你不知道我氣得想跳樓啊你們國產署哪來的地嘛你阿兵哥哪來的地嘛我爸爸也是軍人啊到那邊也是強占民地住的啊我是這麼生出來的勒我在老百姓的房子生出來的勒我自己本人啊你們阿兵哥哪來的地現在因為預官懂得寫字81年80年"},{"start":12506.325,"end":12534.353,"text":"以前是實施戰地政務80以後馬祖哪有什麼地震事務所啊陳雪生下雪的時候生的陳耳聾是耳朵聾了陳瞎眼是眼睛瞎了名字是正本來的啊是不是那你們現在這樣子登記一個是62年的問題嘛62年才成立地震局才給馬祖老闆登記土地你現在要他說要舉證"},{"start":12536.524,"end":12555.736,"text":"82年要舉證,老頭子已經走光了,怎麼舉證嘛,法院就這麼判,還教你們國產署,你們不告就獨執,還叫你們去告,這什麼法官啊?我以前相信司法獨立,我現在不相信了,司法獨什麼利啊?"},{"start":12560.355,"end":12577.808,"text":"跟委員報告,我想在這個地方有關馬祖地區要申請只有返還土地的部分,其實國產人數都是從寬的處理,所以整個來說返還的國有土地已經超過4000多筆,那只是說有一些因為有很明確的一個了解就是說政府曾經是有"},{"start":12578.168,"end":12581.89,"text":"部長,我跟你報告,你說的話我一句都聽不下去,你要以行動來表示,國產署實在窮凶惡極,實在窮凶惡極我跟你講"},{"start":12601.584,"end":12629.226,"text":"你們是管理機關,軍備局只是使用機關,回去跟你們國產署署長好好討論一下好不好?要有慈悲的心,這個地是你們的嗎?你們自己摸摸良心,對得起自己嗎?你們要摸摸良心,好不好?請你回去。報告委員,我們這個法治的社會,部長剛剛所說的國產署一定是基於我們曾經有長的購買,"},{"start":12632.827,"end":12652.518,"text":"院長,我們老百姓沒念書欸,你法治的社會趕緊講法條。徵請人在暫用時間沒有完整的這個時間才會去提出議議,否則我們都是在依照這個馬祖地區土地申請條例裡面來做依法的處理吧。好,因為時間的關係好不好,那部長你請回,我想請衛福部部長跟院長報告,我們最近馬祖民眾送來的都會做斷層掃描"},{"start":12660.229,"end":12687.354,"text":"緊急醫療護送馬祖不是部立醫院在選舉的時候曾經有人講說馬祖要部立醫院馬祖有馬祖特殊的一個環境好,我們現在的斷層掃描用了幾年院長知道嗎這是全世界全中華民國最舊的一部電腦斷層20年了斷層造完以後拿到台灣來,到醫院去看不清楚"},{"start":12688.752,"end":12715.983,"text":"再重蹈一次這種輻射對人體的傷害我們還不談,浪費時間嘛,搶救生命嘛,是不是?所以院長我拜託今天部長也在齁,送我們一台斷人掃描好不好?部長研究看看怎麼樣提高馬祖地區我們的醫療水準跟服務我們會做成使用計畫報到衛福部來,是不是請部長幫個忙,送我們一台斷人掃描,不要!"},{"start":12716.693,"end":12743.569,"text":"在那邊照完以後,送到這邊來上船,船裡又模模糊糊,看不清楚啊。再照一次。報告委員,我想我也會跟我們馬祖那邊的醫界都是好朋友,我再來跟他討論,說現在的情況是怎麼樣。一定要讓馬祖的民眾得到相當好的一個儀器來檢查治療。好,我想謝謝院長。謝謝院長,你請回答。謝謝部長。院長。"},{"start":12746.827,"end":12769.72,"text":"還有一個事,高雄飛馬祖航線,我還要請你幫忙,馬祖有兩座機場,那從臺灣到馬祖這是你們交通部的事嘛,是行政院的事嘛,難道要老闆去買飛機或縣政府買飛機來運載客人嗎?不可能嘛,所以你們有刑的便利,有刑的責任吧,是不是?"},{"start":12771.127,"end":12792.246,"text":"所以最近開了很多的會,我也要求交通部,拜託他們。新的部長也非常的謙虛、非常的客氣。我拜託他們,你找民航局找這些,看看怎麼做嘛。你用包機,他一趟要72萬來回。72萬一張票等於是多少呢?要5000塊。5000塊觀光客怎麼肯來?是不是?"},{"start":12792.915,"end":12820.476,"text":"公安科一直講說希望弄高雄飛馬祖的航線一直的提我想請院長或是部長你回答我一下好不好報告委員我知道馬祖的航班一向都是一票難求的機會時間相當長而且受天候的控制相當不穩定那是不是交通部跟這個航空業者能夠來進一步的寫下看怎麼樣提高馬祖的運鏈我想在交通委員會曾經質詢過你嘛就希望一個月以內啊"},{"start":12821.176,"end":12832.529,"text":"部長您認真一點督促民航局把這件事情促成,對觀光也好,我們那邊阿兵哥有一半是住在高雄東南部的"},{"start":12833.629,"end":12858.71,"text":"阿兵哥也不停的在叫,觀光客也不停的在叫,我們鄉親也講說要去高雄玩,去佛光山去等等,所以都沒有飛機可以搭啦,好不好?現在有請林國憲次長找民航局還有觀光署大家再找一個最佳的這個方案。是的,謝謝部長好不好。院長,您也可以協助嗎?"},{"start":12859.721,"end":12885.995,"text":"我們一定請交通部盡力來促成這個提高馬祖航空運量的這件事情。好,因為時間的關係,那就謝謝院長、部長,你們辛苦了。好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝卓院長。報告院會上午質詢到此為止。本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案,就不進行臨時提案之處理。下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":12935.572,"end":12936.118,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13539.838,"end":13542.398,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13590.23,"end":13594.258,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":20822.41,"end":20837.019,"text":"好,感謝院長。那有請行政院長卓榮泰上臺備詢。院長,少子化是國安危機。這個蔡前總統的定調目前有沒有改變?過去賴總統"},{"start":21598.233,"end":21614.818,"text":"報告委員會現在我們繼續開會在進行質詢之前我們先請秘書長報告下午部會所長請假情況。報告委員會行政院政務院長立軍本日下午因病請假。報告完畢。接下來我們首先請蔡易瑜委員質詢。"},{"start":21634.37,"end":21652.316,"text":"謝謝院長。那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們外交部,我們林部長。麻煩請外交部備群。那也請這個國防部部長。麻煩請國防部備群。蔡委員好。院長好。"},{"start":21660.762,"end":21684.009,"text":"院長,昨天看到國防外交委員會的質詢,我想說立法委員現在,人家說立法委員變太上皇了,質詢是上對下,這就已經會誇張了。現在又看到這個中華民國的領土,然後把蒙古也包括進去。"},{"start":21685.555,"end":21693.365,"text":"現在我們在蒙古這個國家,我想請教院長,我們蒙古是一個國家吧?對阿,就是一個國家,獨立的一個國家嘛。那中華民國也承認蒙古是一個國家。"},{"start":21704.605,"end":21722.635,"text":"我總是1946年承認對沒錯1946年所以已經很清楚了嘛所以現在說我們這一部憲法的一個概念本來大法官解釋328號他也說這個領土的問題本來就是屬於高度政治的他屬於一個"},{"start":21723.38,"end":21748.339,"text":"國家的一個統治問題他不宜由憲法來做一個定義阿所以你現在整個國際的情勢來講人們蒙古是一個國家然後跟我們互相設有代表處阿大家都是有很深的一個交易這沒有問題吧是的我們外交部也是也都是這樣的主張嘛對我們在那裡有設處都沒有問題阿人們1946年我們中華民國就先說這個外蒙古就是一個獨立的國家"},{"start":21754.364,"end":21763.484,"text":"2002年的時候行政院還批准了把所謂臺灣地區大陸地區類然後把這個外蒙古這個把它拿掉2002年的時候"},{"start":21764.972,"end":21782.49,"text":"2017年的時候我們還正式廢止了蒙藏委員會基本上這都是對於蒙古這樣的一個國家那過去的時候曾經有這樣模糊的概念然後對這個國家是不尊重的所以我們改變了這些事然後我給大家院長報告啦我就是台蒙國會會長"},{"start":21785.182,"end":21786.823,"text":"我昨天已經打得很清楚了"},{"start":21814.264,"end":21833.906,"text":"中華民國現行有效統治的地區就是臺豐金馬。對,我們也沒有要反攻大陸。所以我以前有外交的年齡,所以我說我要訂什麼反攻大陸特別條例,我是在諷刺富坤起。"},{"start":21835.275,"end":21849.428,"text":"的兩兆花東建設條例,我雖然在反諷,結果還真的有人腦袋裡面還真的在想反攻大陸,而且他指的這個大陸還包括外蒙古,我這個是無法想像,所以我這個變成說,我的答案"},{"start":21852.096,"end":21870.738,"text":"一定報告啦我八月十五我要跟一團震撼交響樂團長是孟義超震撼交響樂團然後我們要到外蒙古去因為這個交響樂咧他就是推廣要讓世界聽到台灣的聲音那他們今年要到蒙古這個國家然後我是"},{"start":21871.419,"end":21889.541,"text":"我會在那一團擔任副團長,我也要去那裡,然後會到蒙古的國會,然後可以在他們的議會廣場,然後去沿走我們台灣的國境,甚至去他們的那個,他們的草原,大草原那邊,去做那一些台灣的一個宣傳,所以大家都這樣拼多久呢?"},{"start":21891.571,"end":21905.019,"text":"本來我想說如果變多高,這是不分藍綠、不分台灣的政治,是大家要團結。怎麼昨天會有人在我們集團還沒處理,就坐在蒙古這樣講新編中華民國的一部分,擋破冷水。"},{"start":21907.961,"end":21911.525,"text":"謝謝委員辛苦維持臺盟關係做了很多的努力那委員對蒙古的歷史跟現狀都很了解"},{"start":21925.098,"end":21946.508,"text":"或許委員現在最近究竟要去的時候可以邀幾位對蒙古不熟悉歷史跟現狀的委員同行,讓他們增加對蒙古的了解。好,我來聊一下看看,他應該要去,我來聊一下。好,那是不是請林部長跟顧部長可以先回,那我下一個議題再請交通部的李部長。"},{"start":21962.684,"end":21990.49,"text":"院長我第二個議題是想跟院長來聊一下我們的這個大車的大型車的煞車的系統那這個大型車的煞車系統我在去年2月的時候我召開一個協調會那這個協調會主要的協工事實上在過去的時候我們很多大型車他的煞車系統跟他的就是說他的檢驗報告所要求的煞車系統跟他的實車是不一致的"},{"start":21991.23,"end":22007.848,"text":"在去年2月的時候我召開這樣的協調會那所以在去年2023年10月的時候那有做了一個檢討那檢討就是說以後出廠的車輛都必須要加注以下事項那這個就是必須要加注它的車軸那車軸就是有碟煞跟鼓煞嘛"},{"start":22008.188,"end":22034.497,"text":"那第二個要加注電子控制單元,第三個要加注這個煞車的這個分拱,那第四個是除氣筒,第五個是駐車法,第六是快放法,跟第七是懸吊系統,要加注這七個系統。那也就是說你只要加注了這樣七個系統勒,至少我們在外面的車,它跟它出廠所要求這種大型車,它所需要的煞車系統會一致。"},{"start":22035.798,"end":22043.187,"text":"我們這個的目的當然是希望減少大型車輛發生事故的時候所造成的一個死亡但是我們來看客觀的數字"},{"start":22045.145,"end":22045.425,"text":"二、四、七人"},{"start":22073.706,"end":22096.273,"text":"那到了2023年也就是去年的時候他更是攀升到了2085件跟2522人所以我想要請教院長以及部長你們來判斷一下說那我們這麼的努力那為什麼這樣大型車發生事故的次數仍然增加此三個人數仍然是在逐年攀高中這到底是為什麼"},{"start":22097.008,"end":22097.048,"text":"好,來請部長"},{"start":22116.088,"end":22143.107,"text":"各位委員報告我想有兩個部分一個是大型車通常轉彎都會有內輪叉所以這個部分我想在現在在新車出廠我們就要求他一定要裝相關內輪叉等等的這些預警的這個系統那另外一個就是這個易引車連結車他這個防鎖死煞車那現在有發現有一些出廠的這個他的安裝的那個那個"},{"start":22143.928,"end":22144.729,"text":"所以我想齁"},{"start":22168.106,"end":22180.524,"text":"交通部上這件事很努力的我剛說逐年攀高是一個客觀數字那我們也知道我們交通部去年我們編了3億3千萬然後要整合大型車的預警系統那"},{"start":22183.828,"end":22207.539,"text":"規劃在今年要起碼要有800部嘛,800車的車輛。所以預警是一個很重要的事,預警。但是煞車系統才是真正關鍵會不會發生事故以及會不會造成死傷。所以我可能再用下一頁來看一下一個影像。來,你來看這個。這是發生在淡水的。它整台車是動不了的,一直撞的。"},{"start":22210.891,"end":22236.912,"text":"所以這個影像是呈現的是這樣,整台車都沒掉。好,來我們再下一個影像。好,這個是。請看後面這邊。馬上停下來。馬上停下來。所以我們,這個是在國外喔?"},{"start":22238.152,"end":22263.083,"text":"所以看到這兩個例子你就看到說我們在國內竟然有已經有前面有車子已經在阻塞了他是停不下來的繼續往前衝然後你看國外的竟然有辦法看到小朋友瞬間停下來這個以這一個大型車因為大型車主要是有分為前面的車跟後面的這一個拖運的部分的車身的部分所以他是很難"},{"start":22264.344,"end":22272.876,"text":"把他煞車下來的,因為我們知道牛頓慣性地律嘛,你頭上車,你頭上車動,你後面的東西,那個慣性還是往前衝啊,那往前衝的結果,就是說這種車內就會有發生折乾車啦。"},{"start":22280.903,"end":22287.506,"text":"所以事故還是發生所以我舉了這樣就是說以現在的科技要來克服到整個煞車的一個系統現在的科技已經逐步在進步但是逐步的進步的這個同時我們卻看到了說現在在台灣所上路的車輛"},{"start":22309.995,"end":22327.55,"text":"卻還是參差不齊。好,這樣就來到我現在要說的重點了。就是說,你看看我們的法規是長這樣喔。我們依法規是照一公路法63條第五項的車輛行事安全審驗的管理辦法,然後在它的附件42"},{"start":22328.911,"end":22348.443,"text":"知事那以及附件43附件42就是動態煞車系統附件43就是防鎖死煞車系統然後這兩個煞車系統他們在97年前是完全沒有在100年的時候有一個關鍵就是100年前的這樣的一個規定沒有規定要設這個駐車法跟快車法"},{"start":22351.986,"end":22374.048,"text":"註冊法,註冊法就是說,他有頭枕車跟後面車,你頭枕懂,你後面要對著那個,也要懂,所以這個就要有註冊法。啊你如果這個快放法,那就是你的座位,因為現在我們都是用氣壓的,所以他會有氣結的產生,所以他的煞車就會變得會頓掉的,所以他要有這個快放法。"},{"start":22374.829,"end":22381.429,"text":"那在90、100年前是都沒有。100年後的法規就強制規定要有註冊法跟快放法。"},{"start":22382.363,"end":22407.741,"text":"好,那在107年,就是現在的法規到了432以及424,它更規定了說,你氣囊式的一個懸吊,你就必須要有VSF。啊VSF咧,這就是車輛穩定性的電子控制系統。啊它也是要控制它後面的車,它的方向跟它的翻覆的平衡。所以這種種的設備,基本上就是要有車輛可以合計。"},{"start":22409.222,"end":22416.607,"text":"好,所以我剛剛列舉起來就有幾個時間點。97年前都沒有規定。18年前沒有註冊法跟快放法。107年前沒有VSF。"},{"start":22423.166,"end":22441.391,"text":"﹗"},{"start":22441.451,"end":22467.55,"text":"用公務預算協助這一些過去他們也是有檢驗合格可是他們檢驗合格卻確實存在著可能車廠沒有把他們如實安裝那可能過去的法規沒有安裝這樣的一個配備造成他們車輛是沒有辦法水停車的就是有這樣現實上就是有這樣的狀況看到總控我要動我的後面我的車道在這裡我也是車好"},{"start":22471.035,"end":22478.547,"text":"阿我們有沒有辦法像剛剛所說的我們有預警系統那我們能不能協助他們把煞車系統也來做一個改善呢?"},{"start":22480.453,"end":22508.238,"text":"跟委員報告如果是屬於車廠他安裝的時候或是出廠的時候的承諾事項那這個部分還是要請車廠要負責召回那把他這個補齊才能檢驗合格我想這個部分是一個通案性的原則之前也有一批機車發現他的這個煞車系統也有一些問題當時有8萬多輛也都有召回的這個狀況那如果說是都有合格照他當時的承諾"},{"start":22509.538,"end":22512.52,"text":"對,因為部長這就是講時代進步、科技在進步但是法規是後面隨著科技有了新的配備"},{"start":22534.79,"end":22535.971,"text":"我主要用這麼多時間我會覺得說"},{"start":22564.643,"end":22576.012,"text":"有請我們行政院院長"},{"start":22593.84,"end":22594.646,"text":"再請卓院長備選"},{"start":22603.643,"end":22624.389,"text":"好,院長我們從總統的520就職的講稿到您的這個施政的簡報,我覺得獨缺一項,我也不曉得政府現在面對少子化這個議題是什麼樣的看法?他是已經嚴重到是所謂稱為國安議題呢?還是說少子化國安議題這是一個民間的認知?"},{"start":22626.71,"end":22637.343,"text":"而政府他不認為他是一個國安議題,院長你怎麼看少子化,因為在520就職的講稿到您的施政報告都缺了對少子化的因應。"},{"start":22638.955,"end":22661.354,"text":"報告委員少子化不僅是個人是家庭是社會更是國家面臨的重大的問題我們已經提升到國安的層次0到6歲0到22歲都有相當多各個不同的補助的措施那本期就要跟你檢討這個補助的措施我們花了很多錢"},{"start":22662.014,"end":22689.314,"text":"一年平均1200億不等到現在執行5年多107年到113年今年是這個少子化因應計畫的截止年我也將近花了5000多萬5000多億了5000多億一年1200億那現在的第5年也花了將近5000多億了但是我的這個少子化的狀況有沒有減少沒有反而更形嚴重所以幾個"},{"start":22691.829,"end":22717.683,"text":"幾個我們重點在2018年的時候這個數據為什麼它是國安議題2018年的時候我國的死亡人數已經正是高於出生人數了而且在去年2023年的世界競爭力的年報也把本國認為人口成長率視為弱勢項目那所以呢在本席辦公室這邊我們了解這個是政府的少子化對策計劃107到113"},{"start":22720.104,"end":22736.89,"text":"我要提出這樣的一個表格是國發會這邊提供的每個勞動人口撫養人數比數值是越來越大壓力越大什麼叫做勞動人口依照本國的定義是15歲到65歲好這樣的總撫養比我們從20這個表格2024年到我的16年後2040年所以撫養總撫養比當中我100塊我"},{"start":22747.233,"end":22768.345,"text":"今年算出今年的這個預的計算是我花100塊我扶養小孩我會100塊有17.39是花在扶養小孩我扶養老人我是花了27.89也就是2024年今年我們國家對於國人的總扶養比我花100塊有45.28是在扶養"},{"start":22771.067,"end":22787.875,"text":"﹗"},{"start":22788.195,"end":22792.539,"text":"就是我的從17.39一直降到15.82但是我的老人的撫養比是從今年的27.89預估會在16年後是達到51.17"},{"start":22804.008,"end":22819.406,"text":"所以這個那再來看除了這個對於我們人口數少的勞動連我們的人口的這個勞動人口也在減少的情況之下他所要負擔的扶幼跟扶老幼也大幅的成長"},{"start":22820.547,"end":22836.078,"text":"所以我們從人口結構其實是國安議題與其要講說我少子化是國安議題本身我們整個臺灣的人口結構就是一個國安議題好但我今天重點是在少子化我們的少子化這邊呢從110年的總生育率0.98一直到112年前年的統計是0.86所以平均生"},{"start":22844.766,"end":22849.862,"text":"0.98個小孩一直降到每年一個人生0.865個小孩"},{"start":22852.196,"end":22875.429,"text":"好那這樣的預算呢是我們有107年到113年分的77個分項我們花了5000多億那大部分都是用在哪裡呢?經貼補助初期的育兒經貼托育及就學補助後期我們是放在住宅補貼我們1200億每年就是花在這上面"},{"start":22876.169,"end":22891.005,"text":"好,那這個本行認為要增加生育率,我們對婦女她在產前的時候是不是應該多一些資源,包括她的心理諮商、生理的理療。"},{"start":22891.886,"end":22896.37,"text":"我這邊具體建議那也請院長參考一下新加坡他們最新的對於生育的特色做法第一個"},{"start":22909.341,"end":22929.654,"text":"因為我們現在晚婚所以導致我的生育率當然也降低所以我鼓勵他早婚的情況之下能夠讓他在21到35歲的單身女婿忍凍卵子這是新加坡的做法政府補助費用第二個改善生育的環境母親的有薪產價是16週我們台灣現在是8週那父親的有薪賠產價我們是一週在新加坡是4週第三個"},{"start":22936.498,"end":22951.031,"text":"這是我認為可以真的可以借鏡的所得稅的減免針對我職業婦女的部分我如果生第一胎新加坡的做法我減他總收入的15%減稅第二胎我減20%第三胎減25%最高可以達到減到60%針對職業婦女那我認為這可以在本國是可以擴大研議的"},{"start":22959.778,"end":22977.131,"text":"只要是他的總收你只要這個家庭收了生第一胎我的這個總收入的所得的不管是他個人所得或者是家庭的總收入等等相關的稅額的減免是一種這個整個家庭這個父母之間的一個總收入來做減免"},{"start":22977.691,"end":22998.197,"text":"我覺得本國是可以做這樣,不是只限於職業婦女。第四個,我40歲以下的婦女指定公立醫院的人工授育,人工授育是很貴的。政府他們是有補助到75%。這四項我都認為本國應該在你每年花1200億下個階段的時候,所以我說你到底認不認定它是國安議題。"},{"start":22998.837,"end":23012.345,"text":"那您新的內閣上來,您是不是有再一次的6年的對少子化的因應計畫呢?現在是本期看不到的。以及我這個青年住宅是應該納入我的配婚年齡,包括子女數,我都應該讓他跟我的這個少子化跟購屋住宅應該要相連結。"},{"start":23020.109,"end":23037.601,"text":"所以針對我現在針對新加坡的這四項的做法跟我們青年住宅納入這個少子化的這個獎勵因此不知道院長您認為在您有沒有啟動下階段的這個少子化的因應政策這是第一個第二個您的做法是不是願意在這幾項當中也納入延益呢"},{"start":23038.237,"end":23038.257,"text":"院長﹖"},{"start":23066.129,"end":23085.943,"text":"既然是國安議題就要非常手段的因應。現在你做了任何的公共建設,包括我們講到我們現在的國軍,以後也沒有人要當國軍了。因為我們少子化哪來的國軍呢?我們現在是工業也缺人,服務也缺人,農業也缺人。"},{"start":23086.804,"end":23087.505,"text":"國營事業應該攜手穩定人員的供應"},{"start":23116.407,"end":23133.397,"text":"我們這個特別我聚焦在天然氣我們90%的人員是仰賴進口在明年的時候我們天然氣的發電佔比是佔50%所以呢既然都是天然氣都是從國外進口而他在我的佔比打50%的時候本席認為強化人員自主"},{"start":23137.179,"end":23159.799,"text":"多元分散採購降低人員的風險在我們現在特殊的地緣政治下的運輸模式就是成為國家人員穩定的潛在這個漏洞那我們小科普一下目前的國際物資的運送有兩者一個叫DES一個叫FBDS就是賣方我現在跟台灣跟這個卡達來購買那"},{"start":23161.22,"end":23176.971,"text":"﹗"},{"start":23177.151,"end":23198.089,"text":"沒有下貨前都是屬於礦組的這句話是重點好那如果是我們改為我方的話對FOB的話那變成是我只要訂貨從對方的礦組的港口我一提貨就是屬於我方的好但是呢我們現在呢中油所用的呢就是DS完全掌握在這個礦組的手上"},{"start":23200.071,"end":23223.451,"text":"好,那現在呢,礦主用了他的車子之後,當然船是他的啊,他當然是可以自己做決定啊,所以在商業交易當中,我們的船東啦,貨主啦,船長是有權利尊重當時船長的當機決定,可以拒絕進入到本國的。好,所以呢當外籍商用船遭遇到極端的這個狀況,他可以全數返航。"},{"start":23224.632,"end":23250.729,"text":"不進入到本國卸貨賣家也就是我們天然氣的礦組他們是可以免責的那國家的供電我們有50%的天然氣完全就是掌握在國外人的手上好我提出兩個議題這個請您事後了解一下在我們多次軍援當中我們天然氣運輸的進入本國的狀況是什麼遶到還是在外海停滯"},{"start":23251.847,"end":23270.687,"text":"還是有這個就是返回目的地本身目前就是繞道跟停止外本席所了解但是我想還是由你還是來了解一下至少這個的嚴重性我其實是在這幾次軍演當中我國面臨到天然氣竟然是竟然有這麼高的不可控"},{"start":23271.488,"end":23289.415,"text":"那另外面對金遠跟軍事封鎖國際也有案例還是只有自己的國籍的船才願意運輸我們國家的必要物資只要是外籍船隻他一定都帶著他們的這個帶著我們訂購的物資返回原本地我講的是國際都有案例"},{"start":23289.815,"end":23289.835,"text":"﹚一、"},{"start":23308.71,"end":23325.04,"text":"國防部也這個國安會也自己出來講話五二零之後這都是公開報導五二零之後臺灣面對軍演軍演的這件事情是只會屢日之巨增那你天然氣是全部都是來自進口啊"},{"start":23325.7,"end":23354.337,"text":"好那另外一個議題就是說我們天然氣有長約跟極其短約有長約就是10年到20年極其短約呢是一天這個每日到一年那當然這個長期約呢是以期貨來約定極其短約呢是以市場的價格那到包括在二物戰爭的時候我們的短約是天價的好不管是長約或短約都可以是用買方的FOB或者賣方的DS來執行好我想到價格"},{"start":23355.418,"end":23372.159,"text":"﹗"},{"start":23372.219,"end":23372.599,"text":"﹚國際短約租金20萬"},{"start":23397.93,"end":23424.178,"text":"而且是現貨的那就是這樣的高價所以呢在中油當中才但是呢現在中油只有4艘這個我們有國際船來執行它的價格長約的價格是期貨來算它每艘每天是8萬美元你看8萬美元跟32.5跟我現況的現在的飆漲是20萬差了快3倍到4倍不等啊"},{"start":23424.938,"end":23446.133,"text":"好 所以本行是具體主張我們這個時間的關係我希望我們現在目前我直接跳到這個我的建議方案那過去都是中油說好我來運那台電在今年他也說我也可以運那中油的時候過去為什麼反對台電運因為他怕說我運的這個台電你運的這個天然氣來你要搶食我國內的天然氣市場所以我就把這個阻絕掉了"},{"start":23454.079,"end":23467.694,"text":"只要臺電開放讓臺電也購買因為他自己也在公開的他們發言人也講他們可以購買那我就把現在中油30%是採這種現貨採購的這30%全部移為臺電來用而且限定臺電你只能作為發電所用"},{"start":23475.583,"end":23504.853,"text":"原來的70%採常約的中油的份你繼續做你回來你運到國內之後你還是可以做你的國內的天然氣市場那現在的問題是還要加上航港局那我們呢在要國企國運國家對經濟部跟交通部就要接同兩大國營事業攜手合作兩大國營事業攜手合作來對於台電自行採購限定他發電的用途共同使用中油目前的這個港口跟接收站"},{"start":23505.353,"end":23531.878,"text":"以及我們交通部航港局的國際國運的政策也鼓勵我們國內的航商跟專業我們國內就三大國內航商鼓勵他們跟國內我們的政府跟國內航商以及專業的學校針對天然氣運輸船之急增加天然氣的訓練課程加入國際國運的行列我們的船也可以共用在中游目前在高雄的永安跟台中的天然氣共同培訓人才"},{"start":23532.998,"end":23557.572,"text":"那我講到一點齁 這個我們現在的人才目前的國旗船只有4艘執行400航次當中的144航次當中只有這個國旗船這4艘我們報告院長我用報告這表示他很嚴重因為只有船長一個是台灣國旗一個而已12個船員是本國旗其他全部都是外籍船"},{"start":23558.032,"end":23568.297,"text":"所以今天我要增加到百分之三十的採購是中油目前的現貨採購我改為我們自己的國籍船來議我需要增加497人16隻的再增加16個16個16隻的船隻是國籍的"},{"start":23577.122,"end":23593.244,"text":"所以我要建船或者是說我要到國際訂貨訂這個船隻包括我人員也要去訓練那這些都是要現在啟動要不然你對50%天然氣是完全外國在掌控欸"},{"start":23594.625,"end":23608.935,"text":"我現在是很沒有具體的數據去呈現出我現在所以我才請你一定要事後去了解天然氣在軍演當中已經有面臨我是斷氣的不可控的因素所以院長你怎麼看這個我們國氣國運的國家對這個議題"},{"start":23612.776,"end":23634.56,"text":"好謝謝首先軍援的時候必定有各種想定那我們一定是採取最安全可靠的方式來維繫台灣所需要的各種物資這個當然包括在內那麼中油過去慣例都是用DES賣方負責的方式來運送那我所知道中油也漸漸在朝用FOB的方式但是他也建立了自己的這個系統"},{"start":23635.08,"end":23656.729,"text":"另外臺電將來在臺中以及協和電廠他必須自己要進這個天然氣LNG他也應該有新的方式可以來進行那部長能不能了解到未來中油臺電在這個船隻運送方式跟我們這個條件的設定底下有沒有新的作為"},{"start":23658.428,"end":23679.735,"text":"這樣好不好?院長你已經有明確性的指示,所以你對於國企、國運、國家對這件事情你認為應不應該做?現在中油已經朝向這個處理了。我現在會提出執行是我已經花了兩年時間,中油才歸宿的,才同意航港局說我願意把這個"},{"start":23680.975,"end":23680.995,"text":"．述"},{"start":23696.77,"end":23723.123,"text":"等了兩年本席質詢了兩年他才去做這件事情所以你只要明確告訴我人力的問題我們要進一步的補充院長這樣子啦你只要同意國企國運國家對這個名詞是由國家來建制他才有可能跨部會的來做經濟部包括人員的培訓包括兩大部會包括交通部都有納入那這件事情你要主責給誰"},{"start":23725.466,"end":23733.336,"text":"國家隊如果承擔這樣的責任當然是最好。我們要有一段時間來建置整個運輸的能量。您要主責給誰?是秘書長來統籌這件事情專案列管?兩位部長是要經濟部還是交通部?"},{"start":23742.127,"end":23744.128,"text":"部長你可以回應,您針對這樣的建制一個月可以提出相關的規劃嗎?"},{"start":23770.003,"end":23784.971,"text":"是,我們會再請教這個委員您的這個想法。我們就朝向一個月好嗎?好,來最後一個議題就是我們眷村文化的資產展現臺灣多元的歷史那從它的一個起源背景那這個我們"},{"start":23785.891,"end":23814.077,"text":"眷村的住民也可以說是在1949年人類近代當中最大的遷徙那也是台灣400年來歷史最大的一個文化融合我們講到台灣這400年來台灣是非常豐富的從原住民荷蘭日本敏克眷村住民一直到現在進行式的新住民那眷村是台灣特有的歷史文化的遺產起源於1940年末到1950年政府是為了解決軍眷住房"},{"start":23815.117,"end":23832.784,"text":"的問題而興建當然他在眷村文化語言飲食建築當然都有很大的就具有獨特性所以豐富了臺灣文化的多樣性好我們從過去從眷村改建的到眷村文化這當中到底有沒有創價呢創這個價值創造呢是有的"},{"start":23836.725,"end":23860.183,"text":"眷改的1.0從這個眷村的改建到眷改2.0保存眷村文化我們透過了資產的運用土地的活化地方政府的合作經營我們竟然提前一年半全數清償了716億表示我的眷村改建到眷村文化的保存是可以創造價值的他不是社會的負債"},{"start":23861.164,"end":23885.421,"text":"好,我們從過去的粗暴改建到現在文化重視的轉變,修復專業是文化資產保護的重要環節,需要專業的知識跟技術。所以呢,我們軍服處,國防部的軍服處目前有6位具有古蹟修復工程工地主任的專人執照的軍職人員,但是3年前我們有20位,現在降到6位。"},{"start":23886.061,"end":23905.386,"text":"好那在這當中目前我們的眷村永續工作其實有這四項這我們有51處其中13處還是在文化園區的服訪37處的文化資產的活化繼續的尋親維護文化資產跟建立平台真的在做的只有下面這一項叫尋親維護文化資產"},{"start":23907.987,"end":23918.993,"text":"好那盤點出來這51處當中有國定股股機制定組股機限定股機歷史建物文化景觀聚落建築考古遺址51處但"},{"start":23922.044,"end":23945.625,"text":"這個當中只有少數是有空間活化這51處當中只有少數空間活化好有幾個案例是讓我們平日遊客是若意不覺的臺北的四四南村臺中的信義新村高雄的黃浦新村這是有活化的空間活化大部分就是顯示建築物改建完後就顯示在那邊好"},{"start":23946.886,"end":23965.795,"text":"那51處當中唯一一處尚未全面啟動眷村文化創新工程的就在我高雄海軍左營眷村。海軍左營的這個眷村是全國最大單一軍種的眷村全部保存面積59公頃。我目前只修復10%還有9%層的眷村是人封為代修封。"},{"start":23971.738,"end":23996.847,"text":"為待休,也就是閒置在那邊。我拍了幾張照片,這個左邊是左營眷村,院長您看看,跟部長,你們就看看吧。這個是這樣的破舊,左邊是這樣的破舊,右邊是我黃埔青村,同樣在高雄。你看上圖是學校的老師帶著同學出來,下圖是我的爸爸媽媽帶著小朋友出遊。有活化就是這樣,一樣在高雄黃埔青村。"},{"start":23997.887,"end":24024.416,"text":"若破不堪而且是閒置而且是還是讓他繼續落魄叫做風為待休的左營眷村好那再來呢在我這邊呢也一個在這個具體要求之前本席認為眷村文化是我的國際亮點這句話要聽清楚眷村文化是我的國際亮點也就是我在51處整個包裹起來"},{"start":24025.555,"end":24050.128,"text":"我來做跟聯合國或者是等同聯合國認證的世界歷史遺址的基金會來申請我眷村文化的國際知名度然後呢來保存跟傳承讓他有更多資源的跟支持而且也提高臺灣也提高藉著眷村也提高臺灣的國際知名度讓更多人知道臺灣的眷村文化進而影響國際的這個影響力"},{"start":24052.529,"end":24068.182,"text":"好這個歷史遺址基金會在我們澎湖澎湖有一個漁村他也是被也自己來申請的世界歷史遺址的基金會所以這個部分我們臺灣的這個是有潛力的所以臺灣是擁有全世界唯一的眷村文化資產"},{"start":24069.423,"end":24083.927,"text":"好,我們應該讓它成為全民國防教育跟國際觀光價值兩個同句的。好,我這邊具體要求行政院專案列管。我也希望是秘書長能夠專案定時的召開會議。那要做這幾件事情"},{"start":24090.469,"end":24104.908,"text":"因為跨部會又涉及國防部又涉及文化部又涉及交通部第一個國防部要做什麼事呢他要申請世界遺址的基金會這按照這個我們彭埔的案例他其實準備了8個月"},{"start":24106.209,"end":24120.579,"text":"所以這個只要目前國防部啟動他最多就一個一年他就可以完成這樣的申請相關的準備作業那第二個文化部他就要去文化部跟國防部共同為什麼要秘書長因為這還要組織單位來因為要花錢到底是"},{"start":24124.562,"end":24139.984,"text":"國防部要花多少錢?文化部要花多少錢?那這樣盤整出來整個整修的費用那也要希望一個月能提出它的規劃另外交通部我們都有國際旅展本席要求國際旅展要納入我們的眷村文化"},{"start":24140.962,"end":24158.846,"text":"作為我對外國在國外的是我們的國際我們的臺灣國際館其中有一項就是卷存文化這是對交通部的要求最後我也希望能夠研議增加請國防部增加有古蹟修復專業製造的君子人員才能夠去維護我這51處"},{"start":24161.167,"end":24161.307,"text":"院長,你怎麼看這個議題?"},{"start":24175.987,"end":24203.03,"text":"非常佩服委員對於眷村文化這樣的關心。我覺得它是對我們生活的融合、情感的融合跟社會的融合、文化的融合很重要的一環。那國防部因為是眷村文化,眷村它原來的所有管理者,它應該要有這樣的觀念,把眷村文化活化再利用。但是整個過程應該文化部要加上很多文化的底蘊跟文化的設計,讓它成為現代文化的一環。"},{"start":24203.83,"end":24217.987,"text":"這樣他往國際走才會有他的價值所以我們請這兩個部會去密切的聯繫將怎麼樣將剛剛委員所講的那主責單位是國防部還是文化部各個有不同的但是精髓應該在文化部"},{"start":24218.678,"end":24243.958,"text":"所以是文化部來主責然後他定期開我的觀念很清楚因為既然跨部會就要一個人主責你到底是要秘書長指責還是政委主責就院長你指示我都沒有意見你現在如果主責給文化部那就文化部你就要定期把這個專案執行下去你就要定期邀國防部你每次的部長這邊你就要定期的以專案方式邀國防部文化部文化部本身然後交通部"},{"start":24244.699,"end":24261.951,"text":"本身就要去列管我今天本席所講的這些事情所以院長您還是要交由文化部來處理。其實我們在高雄的眷村整頓中大概花了12億而且我個人覺得在戰後的建築裡面"},{"start":24263.708,"end":24278.787,"text":"建築的確是大部分人的記憶這點剛剛委員提到這個把它全部整合在一起成為一個很奇特的景觀可以重新呈現第二次世界大戰臺灣當時的狀態我覺得這個點子很好我們會來執行"},{"start":24281.57,"end":24299.962,"text":"好那您大概什麼時候會有提出這樣的方案?兩個月好不好?因為你要重新的盤整這51處你甚至要怎麼既然是全國來看那他的特色他有很多軍種剛才我也提到我再秀一下這個表光是我這51處我的陸軍就19處海軍6處空軍19處後備3處憲兵3處軍情局1處這就很有歷史的這個後面的一個抵運的支持了"},{"start":24311.81,"end":24313.191,"text":"接下來我們請登記第52位林沛翔委員質詢。"},{"start":24357.254,"end":24383.921,"text":"主席有請卓議員長再請卓議員長備詢林委員你有沒有要站中間一點?林委員好卓議員長我本席是只做一任基隆市議員就直接來到立法院但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員是完全一樣的我認為說實踐我的政見"},{"start":24386.567,"end":24405.082,"text":"原比勝選來得重要。完成我對選民的承諾原比單純的勝負來得有價值。所以說本席在從當任金融市議員的時候曾經有個政見叫做老幼共託也就是說讓年長者跟小朋友"},{"start":24405.885,"end":24406.766,"text":"為什麼會這樣講?因為基隆是大部分的青壯的勞動力都在台北都在雙北。"},{"start":24420.003,"end":24442.107,"text":"而老人家如果一出事情或小朋友只要一生病,我們就必須花很多的時間來去照顧他們。所以說,而且再加上說,現在的年長者,65歲的年長者,一定要退休的年長者,遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕,來得有活力,對社會來得也更有價值。單純讓他們放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。"},{"start":24447.984,"end":24468.571,"text":"但是這個老幼共託的政策遇到一個很大的算是在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題就是說不管是年長者還是小朋友就是7歲以下的小朋友都會遇到都會有希望有這個護理人員的幫忙那我們也知道臺灣的護理人員護理師的不足"},{"start":24470.052,"end":24497.825,"text":"這問題其實已經不是在臺灣獨特有的現象而是在全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況而護理的人力荒導致說我們醫院現在有很多醫院不管尤其在區域醫院特別多就是必須要鎖床因為我們的護理師人力不足或者護理師過勞所以說我在這邊想請問一下說請問院長您知道說臺灣到今年1月份"},{"start":24498.545,"end":24520.175,"text":"臨有護理師執照的人到底有多少人嗎?應該接近19萬。抱歉是30萬。那現在真正在第一線的。這是有18萬18.6萬18萬6千人。那變成是說只有六成的人願意有護理師執照可是願意執業。但是在2030年我們看到資料2030年我們會需要將近24到26萬的護理師來照顧我們整個醫療系統。"},{"start":24526.878,"end":24548.905,"text":"所以說這樣一加一減的話在最近這幾年我們就必須要增加五萬五千到七萬四千的護理人力才能滿足我們的需求那我也知道從去年開始本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次而兩次護理師的考試我也聽說這個"},{"start":24550.245,"end":24565.798,"text":"也的確蠻驚駭的啦。七月份的考試過關的%數是將近55、60%二月份的考試低於18%那這也我當初看到資料的時候我也覺得是蠻匪夷所思的"},{"start":24566.318,"end":24584.033,"text":"不過我更想要知道的是說因為我們現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2100然後經過4年學校教育我們的考取率平均只有7乘5那所以說每年頂多加1500人全台灣只加1500個可以合格的護理師變成是說在"},{"start":24589.898,"end":24601.621,"text":"在衛福部的未來10年互產人力供需評估研究裡面指出在2024年我們將短缺15000人到24000人換句話說馬上護理師荒就要重來那在去年的9月28號在第3873次會議中合備護理人力政策準備12項策略計畫中我想請問院長"},{"start":24620.558,"end":24634.347,"text":"你們到目前落實了幾項第一項是護理人員培育嘛那其實說真的一年只有2100個新生未來還會再下降因為我們少子化那想請問具體的我們衛福部的政策會是什麼呢?"},{"start":24650.894,"end":24675.762,"text":"設立臺灣的南丁格爾獎的時候那時候護理從業人第一線的大概只有12、3萬那到現在經過10多年他已經進步增加到18萬到19萬這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低但是我覺得這個進展是有的如果我們大家齊力的推動再加上衛福部正在這個三大面向12項策略能夠齊頭並進我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內趕上"},{"start":24680.367,"end":24705.974,"text":"院長為什麼會提出來這個事情因為其實十二項裡面有些是我們正在進行的我們團隊有去做資料但是有些關鍵的地方我必須要提出來像第一個在第三項裡面有提出說三班互併比的現況資料收集那經過這個你們九個月的統計裡面醫學中心區域醫院跟地區醫院有哪幾家醫院已經是達到所謂的1比6的互併比"},{"start":24707.134,"end":24735.156,"text":"打到的我們有獎勵的措施,請部長答覆一下。我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵,三班護病比的達標的也有獎勵。不是,我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比。那比如說包括醫學中心,包括區域醫院,包括地區醫院,你們9個月統計下來之後哪些醫院合格的達到1比6,我只是想知道這個事情。部長可以回答我這個問題嗎?"},{"start":24739.125,"end":24756.163,"text":"如果現在回答不出來麻煩一下因為我本席在這120天之內我不知道幾次哪一個每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜一個月之內資料到我手上但是都沒有等一下我可能會再針對這些部會來去做進一步的請問"},{"start":24760.491,"end":24780.008,"text":"區議院跟地區議院互併比能夠把它統計出來如果有達到的我們依照獎勵沒有達到的我們要求他趕快的補足同樣的因為這都是12項當初在選舉的時候我們提要全面的補足因為現在人力是有缺口的我們盡量從人力的培育上面來增加從考用的制度"},{"start":24780.248,"end":24795.343,"text":"我現在甚至在問那就是既然我已經講到1比6互併比的話那我想請問三班互併比標準的訂定跟落實請問部長你們一定好了嗎?什麼時候可以跟全國副理事講說我們已經準備好了?"},{"start":24797.571,"end":24803.176,"text":"我再問一次,第四項,這12項政策是我們這次競選團隊提出來,針對全國護理師所提出來的。第四項,三班互併標準的定定跟落實。請問,我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎?什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢?"},{"start":24823.024,"end":24849.23,"text":"如果還不出因為老實講我不想先破題因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班戶病法要入法然後這是在選前講的選前滿口答應選後馬上忘記基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題用這樣聳動的話語去講事情但是今天你們回答我的態度就表現我這樣我認為這件事情好像是真的是嗎"},{"start":24850.353,"end":24850.373,"text":"委員長"},{"start":24866.981,"end":24867.921,"text":"我在這邊也順便你剛剛都講到待遇了嘛。"},{"start":24895.552,"end":24915.026,"text":"那老實講出得起猴子出得起香蕉子找得到猴子出得起牛肉才找得到獅子嘛那我在這邊也必須要跟我們這些白板小夜急診的護理師講話其實老實講我如果說我前一陣子那個因為家人還是一些調查卡有事情"},{"start":24915.746,"end":24916.346,"text":"很辛苦很辛苦"},{"start":24931.98,"end":24960.767,"text":"我們記得前一陣子我記得有修法就是針對說護理師如果被病人被病人用被病人打的時候這個要入這個要加上行政這我完全認同但是就算是這樣做的事情這樣的這樣的法修了之後其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候他們工作量本來就大那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候那如果剛剛還是回到那句話我們一天到晚出我們一天到晚給香蕉當然請得到猴子嘛"},{"start":24961.007,"end":24986.214,"text":"甚至我們只給他花生連猴子都不來吃啊。我這樣講的比喻是說,其實我們護理師他們守護這一行他們都是想救人,想要幫人,想要希望說這個護理我們台灣這個健保我們每個人被照顧到會照顧得更好。但是巧婦無名難為罪,更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候,我這邊強烈要求就是說,請不要同工不同酬。"},{"start":24987.239,"end":24995.134,"text":"也就是醫學中心跟區域中心跟地區醫院這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了"},{"start":24995.728,"end":24996.688,"text":"同工不同酬"},{"start":25021.104,"end":25043.077,"text":"我想部長應該對這件事最有體會非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師跟護理人員是一起團隊作戰他們的辛苦其實不論是白班、夜班都是非常的辛苦那白班每一個職場有他不同的"},{"start":25043.817,"end":25069.172,"text":"反縱,所以我們在研議這個,其實我們有一直持續研議,醫院白班反縱方面怎麼樣來給他津貼,但是這個反縱的部分,就剛剛政務委員你所說,所提到的一馬公一反縱一馬公一反縱,所以在定義上面我們會再做詳細的研議,跟我們最近也都約相關的婦女團體來討論,希望能夠定出一個大家滿意的一個標準。"},{"start":25070.553,"end":25097.403,"text":"謝謝部長,因為我再講一次這是你們第8項裡面講的夜班費的獎勵那我在這邊搶業了求政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛我們台灣說真的我們的護理師平均平均那個經常性薪資好像是4萬3千還是4萬4千而已其實以他的工時來講可能連最低我覺得跟最低工時差不多了其實而且他們要"},{"start":25098.343,"end":25099.103,"text":"這不是我們當初設立這些護理學校的本意嗎?"},{"start":25122.101,"end":25130.538,"text":"這個我覺得其實我不想跟其他人說什麼時候是國安危機什麼時候是國安危機但是這個的確是很迫切我們需要解決的問題"},{"start":25131.892,"end":25156.439,"text":"那這個...對不起還有我想請問一下在第10項跟第11項還是有關三班互併比的達標醫院應該有個三班互併比的達標的獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵我想這都是當初那個12項裡面講的那請問部長或請問院長獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢?那我們什麼時候看得到什麼時候可以實施?"},{"start":25158.08,"end":25165.161,"text":"我們優化護理職場的環境,落實三班互併比,這個其實在113年31號實施。未來我們有爭取到有一個中長期的計畫,大概這個也通過預算,會來改善整個職場的一個環境。"},{"start":25186.96,"end":25198.544,"text":"我為什麼要去把這個檢視這邊因為我剛剛有提過說本來2026這都應該全面要進去但是我們沒有看到說我們其實在選舉在大選的時候我們聽到說三班互併筆要入法"},{"start":25201.465,"end":25227.242,"text":"那目前來講我們似乎就是慢慢慢慢在做我現在聽到部長的回應我聽到院長的回應我們就知道說像這樣的事情其實是有是一步一步在做的但是請你們如果第一個如果能夠的話加快第二點讓早點讓我們知道這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心我們希望多一點的護理師回來到工作環境裡面但是我們不跟他們講說其實你們待遇會比未來好"},{"start":25227.682,"end":25251.882,"text":"甚至說我會直接建議院長將三班護病表直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準這個醫療機構設置標準不是是所謂的是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令只要衛福部願意就可以把這個三班護病表入法而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦"},{"start":25252.83,"end":25277.964,"text":"我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢?針對醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院三班護病比各有不同的數字的比例那這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑重要的依據但是我說人力要將它補齊我們才有辦法真的做到否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到這個足夠的護理人員這個三班護病比就是一個空的目標那現在我們有進程期程就會將它一一的補齊"},{"start":25279.308,"end":25306.649,"text":"我如果講到人力醫療的話其實某個程度上面全世界我想提醒院長一件事就是全世界都在搶護士喔全世界其實我想院長在您的高度上面應該很清楚的知道說美國在搶菲律賓的護士然後我記得日本、韓國也在針對護士有去說你護士跟技術型勞工來去做一定程度說如果你入籍多久之後我們會給你永久居留權甚至給你國籍"},{"start":25307.109,"end":25324.316,"text":"那我知道這個已經不是單單純純衛福部的事情那因為現在缺工的事情缺工的狀況是各行各業都有但是我會在這邊提醒院長您是行政院院長那您的任期我們其實我們不知道我希望說您能夠在您的任期之內好好的跟整個行政團隊來考慮說"},{"start":25325.757,"end":25326.958,"text":"人力的補充當然從國內培訓這個是最直接的"},{"start":25354.724,"end":25379.311,"text":"那如果有真的需要我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後是不是會採用更好的方式那除了部長之外我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該就是大家可以信賴的一個對醫護關係醫護政策的一個專家跟這個專業的人士那我也請陳時中政委來負責來辦好這件事情其實這件事情我們一直在講護理護理護理就花到我們十幾分鐘可是其實藥師也一樣嚴重"},{"start":25381.266,"end":25407.545,"text":"其實藥師我記得藥師的合格率藥師考試合格率好像是百分之三十不到對吧那變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每一萬人就有十三才只有每一萬人只有十三位藥師服務那其實我想很好奇就請問說為什麼醫院卻常年聘不滿藥師呢我們比一般人那個一般的OECD國家來的高但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢部長"},{"start":25410.718,"end":25413.182,"text":"二十幾趴這個比人家三分九還低啊?"},{"start":25422.179,"end":25423.76,"text":"甚至我這邊在講啦就是我直接講比較具體一點的根據統計臺大臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名"},{"start":25452.182,"end":25452.422,"text":"這應該跟他這個"},{"start":25467.363,"end":25467.383,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":25485.316,"end":25500.428,"text":"是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人他能夠經過學程之後投入到這個職場裡面?整個醫療系統裡面醫護要三者缺一不可變成是雖然你醫師夠但是如果你護士不夠基本上醫師也難做事那你就算"},{"start":25500.868,"end":25523.121,"text":"一是護士夠,要是不給藥,基本上治療也是很有限。問題是說我們現在台灣的健保,我們一直講說我們的公衛是在全球排名前幾名,我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的,但是我們自己難道現在遇到人員不足的時候,我們如果還是說OK,我們還是在自滿說我們台灣的健保全世界最好,台灣的醫療全世界最有名,但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話,其實這個"},{"start":25524.782,"end":25526.483,"text":"謝謝委員我也跟部長談過我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他的這個"},{"start":25550.2,"end":25551.502,"text":"好,再來是請放一下影片"},{"start":25571.333,"end":25587.726,"text":"謝謝部長。院長我跟你是第二次見面,第一次見面是在基隆市的市場,我也會記得你那時候幫人家站臺。但是這個市場是其實你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常非常的盛行的。"},{"start":25588.53,"end":25608.256,"text":"那基隆市的最大的市場叫做仁愛市場那目前來講也是快變成跟北投一樣這種傳統二樓市場改建的非常成功但是尷尬的地方是呢他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年然後沒有冷氣不是說沒有冷氣這個是我這個禮拜六過去看"},{"start":25609.178,"end":25619.598,"text":"我實際在那邊走而且11點半還沒有人潮只到一半多一點到12點半只會人更多然後就已經體感都超過37度而且越來越熱"},{"start":25620.506,"end":25643.585,"text":"那這個時候說真的我知道傳統市場這方面的議題嚴格講起來是我們經濟部那經濟部的話老實說我在剛進國會的時候我也知道說我對這個老實講我對有時候在看這些預算的時候重新再去做審視整個預算的時候我也很好奇就是說經濟部產發署跟技術師兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億"},{"start":25649.983,"end":25661.061,"text":"三百五十億的話我曾經算過如果一條基隆的這個基隆捷運加台中捷運的半條一年這個是十幾年的工程三百五十億一年"},{"start":25662.757,"end":25684.335,"text":"這個十分錢就夠了那我當然是這樣不能西瓜不能跟梨子比我很清楚不過同樣是說都是庶民經濟剛剛我們看的影片的時候也看到說在禮拜六的早上11點半那其實還沒有算很多的時候我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人整個整個基本上如果說部長或哪一天院長如果來基隆我帶你去那裡走走你就知道了"},{"start":25685.055,"end":25710.697,"text":"您也不錯,但是部長也起來。其實我那時候還蠻希望說黃仁勳的那個黃仁勳NVIDIA老黃可以過來我們基隆吃吃東西。我當然也很希望,我們等一下會談到說那NVIDIA的事情。但是我會認為說現在基隆的仁愛市場,二樓市場已經變成是在基隆變成一個光光勝地,很多人都會去吃飯的地方。但是冷氣不足。如果剛剛看那個影片的時候你會發現到每一台電風扇都是開著的。"},{"start":25711.337,"end":25729.052,"text":"可是那個體溫那個體感溫度還是降不下來而且裡面的冷氣每一台基本上有的開有的關但是冷氣都輸不來那我們一方面來講用電老實講這樣對用電其實蠻傷的一台三十幾一個市場三十幾年來冷氣都沒有換過"},{"start":25729.833,"end":25758.632,"text":"那我說真的我想說在這邊也代表基隆也代表我們整個也代表基隆也代表基層我是基隆的民意代表我是基隆的嬰兒我是基站出來的所以我會希望代表基隆代表基層現請我們經濟部幫個忙在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間那請問部長或院長你們覺得這個忙30幾年的一個大型傳統市場500多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候那是不是可以見請我們行政團隊"},{"start":25759.914,"end":25760.837,"text":"苦民所苦呢?"},{"start":25762.528,"end":25789.856,"text":"各位委員報告十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到他有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便現在都變成很潮流的地方很明亮的地方如果能用這種觀念來改變的話我想對基隆的市民來看都是歡迎的那這個過程我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力讓地方也能夠"},{"start":25790.576,"end":25790.596,"text":"部長"},{"start":25814.312,"end":25838.8,"text":"報告委員,你這個案子我們後來有回去,我們有檢討,我有責成我們這個相關單位,應該有跟你報告。那我們現在是準備用這個ECFA的方法,用那個節能減碳的方法,來幫助這個市場的改建。"},{"start":25839.946,"end":25841.587,"text":"我其實在這邊已經講到省電的議題"},{"start":25862.918,"end":25886.994,"text":"其實郭部長您也辛苦了啦,最近這個整個政治氛圍跟您的專業跟您的過去背景不太一樣。但是我也在這邊想請教郭部長,因為老實講這個NVIDIA剛剛離開,黃仁勳剛剛離開,那他離開,那我個人,因為我個人是在看整個情況之後,在看所有報導之後發現說當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口。"},{"start":25887.614,"end":25902.436,"text":"那老實說這個我個人認為是如果能夠把NVIDIA的這個R&D Center就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣不管留在哪個城市我當然希望留在基隆市但是不管留在哪個城市對於臺灣都是好事"},{"start":25903.735,"end":25917.758,"text":"但是他自己也第一時間提出來了,電力的問題是很大的,是一個很大的concern,一個很大的issue。因為電力衝突中阻是一回事。另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事。"},{"start":25918.601,"end":25936.617,"text":"第三個是電力如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想已經有我們太多同事已經談到了。電力的價格因為如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話,我想以一個全球佈局的公司可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠。"},{"start":25938.761,"end":25954.554,"text":"更何況還有電力的來源剛剛應該是林黛樺委員有講到說臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣那有一個問題其實如果是業界人都很關心就是CBAN"},{"start":25955.447,"end":25983.41,"text":"就是明...如果記得沒錯的話是明年嘛明年歐盟就要對於臺灣客...對於臺灣的產品那個...客...客與探稅對吧那CBAN的問題呢變成是說臺灣我們現在探稅問題什麼現在探交易所探交易法探交易...執法是不是已經成型而且如何說我們臺灣先把這個稅探...這個稅錢先把它拿下來之後所以我們的產品到歐盟不用被...不用去客稅換句話說那如果R&D Center的NVIDIA的R&D Center來到臺灣那..."},{"start":25985.311,"end":26006.349,"text":"他的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅,他們會不會因為這樣而不去做郵運進來,這我也很好奇。因為我們現在談到,我們當然希望NVIDIA過來,姑且不論國際政治因素這是他可能第一最大的風險。再來就是我們講的電力,再來還是講到說會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震。"},{"start":26006.849,"end":26028.395,"text":"台風跟地震對NVIDIA來講是想是第三要去考慮的事情第一考慮到兩岸關係嘛再來考慮到電力問題可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足電力的來源還有電力的價格而且我們也知道NVIDIA它的整個電力的使用率是高的這不是說只是我們現在隨便說一趴兩趴因為你要去做出R&D的時候"},{"start":26029.535,"end":26031.116,"text":"人民兩位你們覺得NVIDIA現在如果假設"},{"start":26049.17,"end":26054.072,"text":"報告委員這個NVIDIA他要的還是綠電所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力也就是說我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用"},{"start":26078.769,"end":26098.702,"text":"來得及嗎?應該是來得及。來得及嗎?因為我老實講綠電過去8年讓我們不是只有本席,我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展的速度感到失望。所以說未來的話如何能夠趕得及讓國人符合期待而且是好像本來在明年就要到15%或15%還20%不過現在"},{"start":26101.884,"end":26105.647,"text":"我那時候問國發會主委說我們2030要全面電動巴士我們2040要全面電動小客車跟摩托車但是我們電從哪裡來"},{"start":26129.895,"end":26134.78,"text":"要滿足這些電動載蓄電從哪裡來?而且如果要滿足這些電動載蓄的話請問要幾個發電廠?是火力發電廠還是核能發電還是綠能發電廠?要什麼時候建好?"},{"start":26144.599,"end":26147.442,"text":"國際大廠來台灣設廠,很多都是需要綠電。他們願意來設廠,就表示對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力,他們是有信心的,我們一定要對他們負責。這就是說我要這個資料,當初是廣明星廣明署長在不在?"},{"start":26164.298,"end":26188.376,"text":"那時候他當國發會主委我在他面前在質詢的所以說這個資料會後給我資料兩個月了資料還沒有到我希望在一兩個禮拜之內我們等國發會把相關資料能夠迅速補給委員好謝謝謝謝林沛翔委員質詢謝謝主委長貝旭麻煩請行政單位把林委員所取的資料麻煩如實送達謝謝接下來我們請登記第53位牛許廷委員質詢"},{"start":26205.246,"end":26220.333,"text":"現在跟議長報告,在我們議場來參訪的是美國南達科他州的州議會的訪問團在我們樓上,我們掌聲歡迎。歡迎各位。好,謝謝。我們接下來繼續請許廷偉議員,請。好,謝謝主席。行政院長、經濟部長有請。麻煩請左院長再次備詢,也請經濟部。"},{"start":26241.211,"end":26261.457,"text":"院長午安,一整天的備詢辛苦了。身為年輕的國會議員,始終懷抱理想,期待我們的政府有功能,社會有良知,人民能夠獲得公平正義。薪水物價跟房價是當代台灣人民最在乎的民生指標,這個院長應該不會反對吧?"},{"start":26263.885,"end":26286.826,"text":"那我們今天就針對經濟發展分配正義居住正義來做一下綜合討論期待政府能夠提出好的表現跟回答首先我要請問院長跟部長捐低效應是什麼意思捐低效應你有聽過這個名詞嗎英文叫trickle down沒關係部長可以說明編記效應嗎不是編記啦捐低啊下盛經濟學聽過沒有"},{"start":26288.271,"end":26309.544,"text":"好沒關係我解釋給你聽喔捐低效應或稱下振經濟學是講說政策上政府的政策側重大企業透過給大企業不管是減稅也好或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展透過讓一部分的人先成功然後"},{"start":26310.624,"end":26327.041,"text":"祈待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富,從而間接的達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情。這個概念叫做Trickle Down,叫做捐低效應。這個院長您相不相信這樣效果,這樣子說法的效果?"},{"start":26327.441,"end":26344.39,"text":"台灣已經是一個成熟的開發而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方了當一部分人先富起來那是古代中國的一個實用化其實不適合我們現在我們現在注重的不僅是高科技我們希望中小微企業都能夠存不起來"},{"start":26344.97,"end":26363.621,"text":"這就是所謂均衡台灣的理念。希望均衡對不對?很好,這是我本期今天第一個要提的概念。為什麼我會提這個當作開場?因為賴清德政府的經濟政策基本上最常被人家討論的叫五大信賴產業,對不對?半導體、人工智慧、軍工安控、次世代通訊。希望透過價值鏈的整合帶動經濟的成長,這個其實就是標準的。"},{"start":26367.984,"end":26393.383,"text":"下盛經濟學的這樣子一個邏輯啊。我們討論台積電,台積電是我們護國神山。我們討論輝達,認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是台灣之光。當我們討論這些成功的世界級的企業的時候,台灣人都同感榮耀。這一點本席也非常同意。但本席不禁在想啊,台灣難道只有台積電嗎?我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著輝達嗎?我想請問院長,請問台灣中小企業的數量有多少?"},{"start":26393.903,"end":26400.649,"text":"當然不是。中小企業才是台灣經濟的骨幹。沒錯。數量有多少?數量有多少?164萬。164萬。好。部長OK喔。大企業大概多少家?"},{"start":26406.547,"end":26406.727,"text":"幾百萬人"},{"start":26436.434,"end":26440.999,"text":"中小企業的數量163.3萬,占全國98.9%。中小企業從業人數913萬,占全部就業人口數79.98%。相對來講大企業大概是10%左右,另外有18.9%左右是在政府來上班。"},{"start":26461.739,"end":26489.938,"text":"我們看到這個比例不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數就如同院長剛剛講的其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹但是我們大部分在看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候大細股、高科技、大計畫其實佔掉了大部分的篇幅本身非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的院長你對這樣的說法有沒有什麼回應"},{"start":26490.598,"end":26517.988,"text":"我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點所以我們認為中小微企業能夠從數位轉型幫忙他做產業的升級才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型對不對還不錯有點方向但是我今天就講話我就比較不客氣了我要講一些一般人比較少接觸但是蠻殘酷的真相我先請問院長我們的晶片驅動台灣創新方案要投入多少資源"},{"start":26520.756,"end":26521.757,"text":"AI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動"},{"start":26549.872,"end":26565.72,"text":"經費經費部分確實的數字我現在四年400億馬上的3.0預計每一年要投入120億但我要再接著追問你是數字答不出來我很擔心那院長我請教一下中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源少的多民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源也很少"},{"start":26575.509,"end":26583.575,"text":"福島企業二代接班的這個叫做福島小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫。剛剛院長有講了。你看一下上面的圖表。"},{"start":26584.451,"end":26608.529,"text":"民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6千萬。中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4千萬。輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路第一年7千7百萬。我們經濟部有中小企業還跟新創並在一起叫中小企業與創新署。年度預算只有44億4千萬。"},{"start":26610.931,"end":26612.754,"text":"跟前面我們剛剛講的晶片驅動台灣計畫10年3000億AI行動2.0 4年400億未來3.0 1年120億"},{"start":26620.74,"end":26640.268,"text":"是不是資源的投入跟政府的政策的重心有一點點落差?報告委員這一部分的話我們所投入的預算是以以後產出的這個效益為主的這個計算所以這個對這個精創的部分跟這個AI的部分都是以三年後五年後的這個產值"},{"start":26641.556,"end":26670.166,"text":"作為推估的一部分。我今天我絕對不反對投資AI投資半導體。他是我們的護國神山我非常支持。但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡。我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞叫捐低經濟學?就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候。你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈這個概念都沒錯。但是我要請問比如說精創產業整個半導體產業鏈受惠這3000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠?大的小的加起來整條半導體產業鏈大概多少家?"},{"start":26671.723,"end":26690.737,"text":"報告委員我們金創台灣計畫我們現在正在修正我們會把晶片的應用AI的應用的產業那就是包括中小企業全部會納進來所以我們在應用的部分以本席了解的資料整個半導體產業鏈的上中下游大的小的都算了400家左右"},{"start":26691.317,"end":26714.872,"text":"你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家屬是160幾萬家這就是我擔心的事情那第二個我也很想問你這個AI的行動計畫它可以造福多少產業可以造福多少從業人員對不對這就是我今天想要問的問題這是我認同委員就是說我們在晶片產業跟AI它的應用的部分我們會推廣我們現在正在規劃這個所以會增加中小企業"},{"start":26715.792,"end":26730.625,"text":"我想不管是院長部長跟主委應該可以聽得出來啦就是說現在看起來資源的投入啊失衡的狀況好像比較明顯一些其實很多中小企業的專案甚至我們去爬資料啊甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出啊因為太小了"},{"start":26731.085,"end":26732.666,"text":"國科會在討論這個議程的時候他有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果將來一定從"},{"start":26756.138,"end":26772.369,"text":"不僅從高科技裡面還要再分高科技裡面的強弱還要落實到中小微企業主委曾經報告過這樣的計劃畢竟新團隊才剛上任我們會願意給一些時間但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候不要再看到這種大細碼這種狀況再來我要問這個股票指數屢創歷史新高國內國發會的景氣燈號攀升藍燈慢慢都變紅燈數據上看起來經濟前景很好院長看好台灣未來的經濟嗎"},{"start":26784.053,"end":26785.974,"text":"好謝謝但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府也許是國外企業的落差"},{"start":26802.442,"end":26828.022,"text":"從覆面的總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯但是中中大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心一直以來他有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票的時機等6項信心指數進行長時間的民意調查那目前我就直接把圖表秀出來了人民的想法跟觀感跟政府的漂亮的數據其實有不小的落差"},{"start":26828.542,"end":26845.725,"text":"家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概有44%左右對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半56%物價水準信心非常可怕認為物價未來會上漲的9成多"},{"start":26847.23,"end":26860.232,"text":"股票雖然上了兩萬多點大家都覺得很厲害但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機啊。院長為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差?"},{"start":26861.018,"end":26881.964,"text":"我承認人民的感受我們要讓他更真實更溫暖更直接所以我說過一句話就是任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵公平的分配其實這個非常有切合本席在問的主題為什麼數字很好可是大部分人悲觀其實就是通貨膨脹的問題"},{"start":26883.644,"end":26901.64,"text":"有超過9494%的人認為物價會上漲經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛很多科技業的榮景不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題所以分配是非常重要的所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題喔這個根據喔"},{"start":26904.422,"end":26921.449,"text":"數據資料庫的顯示我們的勞工的每月明目薪資從2020年到2024年大概成長了大概3000多塊接近一成提升的幅度不小但是其實更多人關注的是所謂的實質薪資的上漲率實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內卻是連續下降院長這代表什麼意思我們薪資的結構還是要讓他"},{"start":26927.679,"end":26934.892,"text":"這增加人民的所得還是要讓它增加人民的所得因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊"},{"start":26935.56,"end":26949.194,"text":"通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦啊,受苦程度也有大有小,因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總署的心情平台,這個用我們政府的資料,2023年統計資料顯示,我們總共有111類的產業,大家講百工百業,其中有73個類別的產業,每個月包含獎金在內,包含加班費在內,"},{"start":26958.283,"end":26958.503,"text":"院長現在有想法嗎?"},{"start":26982.5,"end":26997.5,"text":"﹗"},{"start":26997.5,"end":26999.883,"text":"我們可以公開的呼籲公開的呼籲"},{"start":27013.598,"end":27031.995,"text":"我們要討論的是一樣,本期在乎的是中小企業的事啊,針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛,對不對?但是一樣喔,這個2016年我們針對這個東西做加薪減稅嘛,也就是中小企業給員工加薪,我政府給稅率優惠,這個東西花了多少錢?院長跟部長有掌握嗎?"},{"start":27033.607,"end":27055.594,"text":"這個 有一點細節啦 相當大的一個指標的一個獎勵2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅市支出1043萬一千多萬而已2017年753萬然後這個計畫就中斷了馬上要新上路因為最近就在討論修法的方案從高估的角度高估最多最多也就是2.63億如果低估的話可能只有5000萬"},{"start":27057.174,"end":27082.381,"text":"對照我們剛剛給那些大企業成功的企業的各式各樣的政策優惠同樣在加薪減稅的這一塊的政府投入的資源本期期期以為不夠真的是不夠經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的招邀金如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策投入的資源是以百億千億為單位就期待這些企業成為火車頭要帶動產業的成長要成為原動力這個就是"},{"start":27085.263,"end":27104.359,"text":"我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的捐低效應這是這樣的政策邏輯但是不管藍綠過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像台灣的經濟政策但從新制的數字人民的信心指數來看顯然沒有捐低的效果反而形成了強者很強弱者更弱的分配問題"},{"start":27105.1,"end":27120.058,"text":"我本期認為這叫方向錯誤如果政府沒有辦法及時來做調整我認為這是有負人民的託付所以本期期許在第一段的這個資訊裡面期許新政府能夠察覺問題調整政策對於中小企業服務業的發展"},{"start":27120.578,"end":27121.759,"text":"院長講到目前還可以接受嗎?"},{"start":27144.225,"end":27153.295,"text":"謝謝委員的觀點總體經濟還是很重要我們這一次很多的閣員都來自產業我們希望帶進來產業的效率最近我們也會對經濟問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會當中國發會、經濟部、財政部就會就"},{"start":27164.305,"end":27184.915,"text":"我們期待啊,政策在這樣子的平台搭建起來之後,針對中小企業,針對服務業,一定要投入特別的資源。沒關係,因為我時間有限啦,我期待啦,樂觀期待你可以有像樣的這個做法,但因為我們要進入到第二階段,第二階段我們要談的是房價,所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息,我們內政部長有請。"},{"start":27194.231,"end":27218.427,"text":"接著我們談房價的問題根據內政部從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果可以發現住宅價格上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖105年也就是2016年蔡政府上台第一年當成基準來計算房價指數100到112年度的第四季也就是去年的年底這個數字的指數直逼140"},{"start":27219.528,"end":27240.82,"text":"可以說這八年裡面住宅價格上漲了接近四成但今天我要先問的問題是與此同時有一個非常有趣的狀況想要跟政府來做一下探討跟院長做個探討內政部統計的房價所得比好像沒什麼變也就是說房屋價格大概漲了三成多接近四成可是我看你的房價所得比好像沒有差很多以桃園市為例"},{"start":27241.781,"end":27242.462,"text":"院長或部長可以回答?"},{"start":27259.917,"end":27279.484,"text":"好,謝謝委員的指教。我想你大概也發現到說,其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高。所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況。那政府所推出來,包括我們現在的所謂的百萬租屋、家戶的部分呢,追不上現在房價的速度。所以才會產生像你所說的那樣的現象。這是我們必須要來檢討改進的。"},{"start":27281.418,"end":27309.279,"text":"這個一樣是百萬,這個待會我們會針對百萬租入這個政策來做探討。我只舉一個例子,我講這個數據的不合理性,我希望政府回去做一下思考,是不是太樂觀了。比如說2020年,這個本期的選區,A級雄化區,那時候大概一坪的房屋價格25萬。到2024年、2023年的年底左右,大概是35萬。其實上漲的幅度差不多就是四成。也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一位的這樣一個房型,到了最近差不多都是一千四百多萬,甚至有更高的一個狀況來出現了。"},{"start":27310.74,"end":27330.982,"text":"那房價所得比的意思7.6表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買齊1000萬的房子我們就以這個為例子年收入的所得大概是131萬那到了2023年如果房價從1000萬變成1400萬的時候那照理來講我這個房價所得比我就用同樣的標準130幾萬的標準來去算的話房價所得比會超過10啊"},{"start":27332.083,"end":27332.383,"text":"那我要問阿"},{"start":27360.263,"end":27383.211,"text":"為什麼房價會越打越高呢?我們還是要回到問題的根源啊請院長評價一下蔡政府過去8年針對這個熱錢湧入房地產市場我們怎麼樣打擊炒作?你給這樣子的這一連串的政策措施打幾分?我們也在過去就推動了多元的這個社會住宅政策也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅"},{"start":27384.551,"end":27411.803,"text":"打擊短期炒作這個手段都有在做政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發包括軌道交通的開發這種開發都會助長當地這個房價跟生活圈的改善所以房價的高漲很多社會的因素所以院長覺得很正常而且也覺得不用改善但是政府就從居住正義的角度去做更多的平價的可以讓年輕人可以"},{"start":27412.463,"end":27437.684,"text":"注的安心的這個角色去做但是我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來當然當然不應該停下來公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質嘛這本身非常同意但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題從80年代以來台灣的住宅政策基本上就崇尚住宅當商品市場萬能論叫去公共化的思維讓房價回歸市場機制就好啦那政府基本上雖然有少數的打擊措施"},{"start":27438.024,"end":27466.843,"text":"但大部分都是叫做補貼式的政策每期名約降低青年的負擔其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房截至2022年底我國的住宅自有率高達84.6%但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年30年變成35年甚至出現40年的房貸多少的年輕世代因為這樣子的關係陷入防止孩子二選一的困境養了孩子無力買房"},{"start":27467.543,"end":27493.227,"text":"背了房貸,無力生子。面對民怨的主要對應手段,我們看到政府過去的時間還是加碼加碼再加碼,補貼補貼再補貼。至於真正有機會能夠降低房價抑制投機的市場面的改革,恐怕是牛步向前。政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼,租屋補貼是一種,新清安的利息補貼是一種,但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲。"},{"start":27493.647,"end":27519.027,"text":"如果我們還是繼續只是用社會福利的角度提供社宅提供補貼來只有這樣子的角度來看待住宅政策。大家想要討好青年又不敢得罪建商。扛公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。本期主張政府的思維應該轉從社會福利轉向社會投資啊。什麼叫社會投資?大家都講青年世代國家的未來。他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具。不應該也不..."},{"start":27519.787,"end":27544.106,"text":"也不應該絕望,不應該對未來躺平以對,解決青年的住房問題就是解決青年少子女化的問題,就是找回國家的未來最直接最有效也最務實的方式。我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化,讓它回歸使用價值,要從整體市場面推動改革方案,在於改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境來確保居住權。"},{"start":27544.927,"end":27573.697,"text":"蔡政府8年的打房措施本席自認為是不及格的。深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸。但是德賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法也馬上要上路。請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容。這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本,避免囤積居奇,大搞限售鎖盤。什麼時候推動上路?預期的成效跟目標又是什麼?囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。"},{"start":27575.68,"end":27598.282,"text":"委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新清安的問題那財政部已經就代後管理的加強做了很多這個因應的措施至於說稅制的問題我想再請部長來做說明跟委員報告有關房屋稅條例修正了以後在今年7月1號開始會上路那對於建商我們是按照要他時間內然後"},{"start":27599.363,"end":27599.603,"text":"這很重要。"},{"start":27622.99,"end":27644.882,"text":"因為我們前面當然不管是院長或是部長大部分的時間都談建設社宅都談租屋補貼都談包租貸款這些我也都支持可是我剛剛講的政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利要有市場面的改革囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革而且你政府已經推了方案甚至即將上路沒有什麼道理院長部長不曉得的好不好剛剛財政部長講的很清楚"},{"start":27645.882,"end":27664.917,"text":"這個囤房稅會針對建商只有兩年的寬限期嘛,如果兩年內不把該賣的都賣掉,後面就會增加他的持有成本。請問院長,請問兩位部長,這樣子的一個政策上路之後,你有沒有預設目標?比如說我要把房價指數的往上的趨勢壓平,或者是有沒有具體的一個數字,大概多少時間內還有多少信心可以完成?"},{"start":27665.694,"end":27665.714,"text":"當然"},{"start":27680.965,"end":27686.95,"text":"內容部長講得很清楚,但是我的問題是什麼?我的問題是政策目標。也就是說我要把房屋指數往下降,降多少?"},{"start":27706.789,"end":27725.962,"text":"或者是有什麼樣的一個具體的方向?你們在推動這個的時候總有一個政策成效吧?它預期的成效會是什麼?比如說我因為這樣的兩年寬限期,全國中央歸戶這樣的一個政策設計,多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋,改善市場供需不均衡的狀況?你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎?"},{"start":27727.691,"end":27728.031,"text":"好 沒關係好"},{"start":27742.79,"end":27762.919,"text":"我第一次都沒關係,但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候,各式各樣的數據,院長要把它記在腦子裡面,大的方向至少要有。比如說我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅,20幾萬戶的這個包租貸款,租屋補貼,50萬的租屋補貼,你看我都會背了,對不對?這是你也會背,大家都會背,可是不會只有這個嘛,對不對?好,你既然講剛剛大家擅長的我就來講。"},{"start":27764.159,"end":27784.954,"text":"劉思芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也講2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅25萬戶包租代管50萬戶的租金補貼提供100萬戶的這樣子的一個供給量這樣的政策目標八年的大目標大家都可以講但是我很好奇的是萬一如果做不到誰負責怎麼負責"},{"start":27786.215,"end":27811.972,"text":"但是我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你八年之後一定做不到,這樣子好像也太看衰政府,我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用八年的大目標去框這個東西的話,我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講是有負面的影響的。請問有沒有更細緻的,比如說逐年或是每兩年它的政策目標是什麼,方便所有的關注住宅議題的所有的立委也好公民團體也好可以有效來追蹤,請問有想法嗎?"},{"start":27813.273,"end":27831.907,"text":"謝謝委員的關心。我想您講的部分,我們在8年內達到百萬租屋加戶的這個計畫一定會達得到。為什麼?因為到目前為止,包括這個包租貸款或是租金補貼其實已經達到原來的目標。那比較慢的部分就是所謂的直接興建設宅的部分。那直接興建設宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概8千萬。"},{"start":27832.467,"end":27850.718,"text":"我不要聽今年的,我要聽一年後、兩年後、四年後、八年後。請你去整理,好不好?請你去整理,我希望你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標嘛,比如說分四個階段來達成,這樣是不是大家追蹤比較具體,中間出了問題我可能會及時來調整,而不是說因為八年以後可以達成總量。"},{"start":27851.898,"end":27880.428,"text":"我希望有逐年詳細的目標我也希望院長要立軍令狀萬一沒有達成是要有負起政治責任的這樣子的一個心理準備我們才會相信這政府在推動社會住宅政策推動包租貸款等等的時候是玩真的最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質因為時間有限我們就不多花時間來做論述了這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異這個在新北台北桃園新竹縣市大體上晚上的人都比白天人多"},{"start":27881.468,"end":27900.963,"text":"意思是什麼?除了有少部分是夜班或者是移工之外,大部分其實就租屋客群居的地方啦。因為他不在戶籍人口之內,但是在性命調查的時候,他是被統計在人在這個位置的。這個租屋族到底有多少人啊?我們光是討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘。因為租屋市場是一個黑市啊,我們沒有人能夠很清楚的了解這樣子的一個數字。"},{"start":27901.904,"end":27917.451,"text":"這是一個大的問題所以說除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外啊租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的根據朝院的調查租屋的青年的困擾不可以戶籍不可以領租補不可以報稅租金過高價格不穩定這些東西都會讓政府推動"},{"start":27918.411,"end":27942.824,"text":"租屋或者是住宅政策的政策品質受到一定的影響所以本席希望長期你可以推理的8年100萬戶但是短期之內軟體的政策也要同步達成本席講的就是租屋市場的透明化本席的草案本黨的草案基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備來做排審我想請問中央政府針對租屋市場透明化有沒有修法的規劃有沒有具體的時間表"},{"start":27943.975,"end":27964.976,"text":"我先跟委員報告一下目前我們在百萬租家戶裡面所謂的包租貸款或是租金補貼的方式其實已經超過有60萬到70萬的這樣的家戶那所以我們會針對說他在租屋的過程當中包括您剛所說的這個租屋市場的津貼也好或是租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化可以提供給更多或是年輕人來做參考"},{"start":27966.297,"end":27980.733,"text":"那我現在了解說像臺北市政府他們願意呢來幫忙就是把這個所有在這個網路上面的這個租屋的這個安全網設定一個讓大家可以公開跟透明化來看一下這個房價是不是合乎的部分沒有沒有"},{"start":27982.335,"end":28004.54,"text":"因為原來在網路上面就有這樣的租屋補貼的方式,但是它是不是夠透明化?那有願意縣市政府要投入來幫忙的話?沒關係喔,如果看起來沒有這麼快提版本喔,那我們的版本就先來排審。那排審的時候,我希望行政院用開放的態度,我們充分來做討論,好嗎?針對租屋市場透明這一塊,包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步的來納入,讓租屋市場恢復正常。"},{"start":28005.04,"end":28023.649,"text":"大家以後才可以比較理性也比較清楚的討論政策,希望內政部是準備好了。好,最後總結一下,我們的政府樂觀但人民保守,其實原因還是分配不均。94%的人擔心物價,80%的中小企業缺乏關愛,65.7%的產業受限低薪問題,我們的房價越打越高,人民越來越苦。"},{"start":28024.309,"end":28025.83,"text":"謝謝委員的提問,這個問題我們是列為很重要的政府未來的工作"},{"start":28048.84,"end":28050.185,"text":"謝謝牛許廷委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的背信。現在我們休息15分鐘。謝謝。"},{"start":28986.141,"end":28990.364,"text":"報言會現在我們繼續開會。接下來我們請何欣淳委員質詢。好,謝謝院長。我們是不是首先請我們卓院長。再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":29022.29,"end":29048.711,"text":"陳委員好卓院長好首先先跟你加油還有很多很大的挑戰在面前那我想這一次的國會擴權法案我們政院已經提出副議那明天立法院就要進行質詢不知道卓院長的期待如何因為之前你曾經指出你比較樂觀我必須樂觀因為我相信每個委員都是經過選民選上來的"},{"start":29051.034,"end":29074.19,"text":"應該都有民主的DNA,都有民主的向往,那希望透過民主的程序再讓大院來討論、審視每一個我們認為自愛難行的條文的內容。我覺得這就是一個民主的機會,再次的審視,那再次的能夠有機會重新再看看能不能讓社會也接受,那我們來執行起來也沒有自愛難行。"},{"start":29074.946,"end":29092.287,"text":"你說過要透過這個過程讓人民好好的知道、理解。民主最寶貴的地方也就是在這裡。所以我也希望接下來兩天的立法院有關復議案的質詢能夠順利。我也希望禮拜五的復議案能夠"},{"start":29093.368,"end":29117.429,"text":"成功這個我們還必須要再加油因為還有很大的挑戰在面前那為什麼會提到這個因為在這個國會擴權法案通過之後監察院有發出嚴正的聲明說這個法案是違反了這個權利分立也違反了目前的五權憲法的一個架構那所以在我們行政院提出賦予的理由有提到這個"},{"start":29118.65,"end":29138.639,"text":"這一次的國會擴權裡面有關的一些包括啟動調查或者是啟發相關的一些法條裡面的這個要求會變成是如果清查政府弊案屬於監察院或司法機關的職權範圍也就是我剛剛說的這一次國會擴權法案是"},{"start":29138.899,"end":29140.12,"text":"我請教院長你會建議監察院也去提釋憲嗎?"},{"start":29154.364,"end":29175.232,"text":"當然是監察院的憲法職權,但是五院的體制要維持下去,就是每個院的職責要非常的清楚,而且互相的搭配,互相不去踩線。行政院對立法院負責,但是我們還有司法權、監察權,各司不同的憲法的職務,尤其是司法權。"},{"start":29176.567,"end":29185.039,"text":"任何人都不是法官只有法官檢察官才是法官那他們所做的事情就單純於司法人應該做的事情而不是拿到這裡用表決"},{"start":29186.004,"end":29211.672,"text":"一個人該不該移送一個人該不該被划緩這不是用表決的方式一個人能不能請律師這個也很重要這關乎人權我的意思是說我相信這一次的復議案當然我們希望樂觀看待他能夠過關那這是人民意志人民展現了相當大的民意的一個成功那如果不能過關那接下來的下一步就是釋憲那行政院"},{"start":29213.012,"end":29214.754,"text":"也表示我們在遵守憲法,捍衛憲法,維護這個五院體制。"},{"start":29232.236,"end":29260.737,"text":"好謝謝院長這個我們還必須要再加油接下來我關心的是之前其他委員曾經也關心過的這個不僅僅是人要有食安那寵物也有食安那寵物的食安在現階段受到廣泛的一個注目那過去曾經有狗的飼料出問題那現在最近有貓的飼料出問題院長你知道這一件事對不對"},{"start":29261.79,"end":29276.817,"text":"對我覺得這個對寵物大家把他當作生活的陪伴對他的照顧應該要多一點所以我們認為這個動保法裡面的專章啊對你曾經回答說我們未來動保法的專章要來談這個寵物的管理嘛那現在在還沒有動保法的專章"},{"start":29278.318,"end":29298.646,"text":"行政院院長還沒送到立法院嘛年底嘛對不對那還沒有的情況之下那現在貓飼料出問題了我們如何管上一次所謂的貝利跟這個貓飼料都出現了這個飼料上的一個危機那有市主就反映貓咪吃完之後出現的這個低血價或者是身體不適等這個狀況那這個事件是不是請我們陳部長可以來簡單檢調報告一下"},{"start":29305.029,"end":29330.208,"text":"那非常謝謝那個委員的關心這個有關於寵物食品的議題那現在跟我們整個的未來的食品會有一個專法專法包括整個食品的從進口以後的追溯整個系統要有完整的追溯才能夠處理那現階段我們現在有針對有關於飼料本身的這些病原及微生物還有它有害物質有一個有一個鑑定的方法有一個鑑定的方法有標準"},{"start":29330.768,"end":29343.733,"text":"對,然後有這樣的標準的話我們就會查核那過往我們大概一年只查100件左右我們現在今年開始就已經開始我們會加倍到300件到500件那到現在為止已經抽了大概110多件"},{"start":29345.925,"end":29374.453,"text":"所以要加倍抽檢大概三倍大概三倍三倍以上對不對那請問一下那我剛剛講的那個已經發生的事件那我們如何處理那第二個聽說事主自行的去檢驗飼料有驗出三聚氰胺跟黃毒橘素那這個有相關的法規嗎有相關的標準嗎我們可以處理嗎我們有標準但是因為您說的那個部分是他大概有去了解嗎沒有"},{"start":29374.913,"end":29375.654,"text":"目前為止你超越的、超減的都沒有超過?"},{"start":29397.686,"end":29415.181,"text":"對那原來那個低血症的那些飼料的部分經我們檢查他的飼料也沒問題那我們也召開了專家會議那專家會議說那你有就這個你們的檢驗的結果跟專家會議的結果有第一個當然要公告了公告周知第二個"},{"start":29415.982,"end":29427.469,"text":"有跟這位這個事主有聯繫嗎?有去查清楚、弄清楚這雙方之間的落差到底在哪裡?因為我們這邊官方檢驗出來是說沒有問題。但是事主卻說有問題。"},{"start":29432.972,"end":29458.278,"text":"那如果我們沒有辦法把它理清楚說明清楚的話這資訊的落差或者是檢驗結果的不一樣會造成所有的這個貓氏族們的一個人心惶惶不安心啊我了解對我跟委員說明就是他當初那個氏族本身的低血鉀正本那我們開了專家會議那專家會議沒有辦法排除任何的可能啦因為他的結論說"},{"start":29459.838,"end":29476.05,"text":"因為飼料有可能造成,但是飼料裡面的甲它的含量是有超過標準的。所以相對還有其他的原因。那綜合的判斷說低血甲症它是由非常多的因素而造成的。不能完全規則於某一種飼料的部分。"},{"start":29479.773,"end":29493.818,"text":"那我覺得這個部分我覺得應該要更用力的說明或更澄清這個要讓事主們安心因為寵物在現行台灣社會我相信不分年齡層"},{"start":29494.958,"end":29522.83,"text":"那寵物呢這個議題或是這個在動保法裡面我們相關法律規範的這個每一條生命都是無價的那所以呢我們也希望這個寵物產業呢在我們政府能夠積極有效甚至呢能夠更專業的來管理包括他的食品包括他其他的附屬的一些東西我覺得這個已經談了好多年了我希望政府可不可以加快腳步"},{"start":29523.45,"end":29547.883,"text":"對這也是為什麼我們要在動保法裡面有一個寵物食品的專章來特別去做相關的規範。部長我要提醒你喔本來說是要寵物的一個管理專法在你兩年前成立的這個寵物管理科的時候就在講了拖了兩年到現在呢發現不行了我們等不到專法那你說要在動保法裡面有一個專責的篇幅"},{"start":29549.984,"end":29577.948,"text":"但是呢你又說要到年底那我希望呢可不可以盡快盡快因為呢趁這個機會把相關的這個寵物的一個管理制度包括他的食品相關的東西附屬產品我覺得這個是關乎了很多千千萬萬在養寵物的人這個我們人民大家是非常關心我們的寵物的這個健康跟相關的一個事務啦所以這很重要啦好不好"},{"start":29578.529,"end":29579.793,"text":"我們在下個會期一定會提出"},{"start":29583.587,"end":29611.688,"text":"下個會期提出我們就等著您提出我們好好的來討論因為據說寵物的這個相關的這個產業的產值高達五六百億這個也是看我們農業部的報告的是不是而且相關的從業人員也很多養寵物的人更多甚至台灣在這一方面就我知道的中小企業裡面就寵物的相關產品的一個產業鏈也非常的完整"},{"start":29612.188,"end":29626.529,"text":"那如果說我們可以把這個寵物管理的這個專章如果制定好管理的制度也把它建制好那我們是不是甚至可以進一步的跟國際接軌協助這些廠商外銷出口"},{"start":29627.239,"end":29633.925,"text":"對,我們就是朝這樣的一個目標去前進。是不是?好,部長再拜託你好不好講。接下來我要問院長,講到產業,我們最近大家都在談AI半導體很好,尤其我們部長也是來自相關的產業,但是我必須還是要跟院長請命,"},{"start":29649.198,"end":29650.598,"text":"我知道委員所在的選區"},{"start":29678.457,"end":29702.229,"text":"臺中是我們傳產的重鎮,很多其實隱形冠軍也不乏在裡面。也很多。那當支撐了臺灣很長時間的一個經濟發展,那現在我們朝高科技發展的情況底下,我們一直講說數位轉型,也不能去忽略了這些中小微企業跟傳統產業當然包括在內,那我們在這高科技的很多的補助當中,那是"},{"start":29702.898,"end":29713.458,"text":"因應高科技整個發展的快速但是回頭來我們要讓傳產不會失去它的競爭力甚至把科技引進數位引進到這個傳產的管理上面來那這一點我想"},{"start":29715.182,"end":29736.595,"text":"國發會、國科會、還有我們經濟部都有很多的作為。來,院長,你講得很好。但是我要提醒一件事情。不是所有的傳統產業、中小企業都能夠數位化、高科技化。我們要非常仔細地去盤點。你剛剛提到我來自的選區台中。台中市的這個機械業、汽車、五金融、"},{"start":29737.295,"end":29758.029,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":29758.249,"end":29778.726,"text":"我認為數位化是一個趨勢,智能化是一個趨勢,但是那是要稍有規模以上的公司、工廠才可能負擔得起,那不是政府用花就有辦法做到的。我們政府要協助他們,也要公司、工廠他們有資本、有能力再投入,這投入是一筆錢,這一筆錢如何再由政府來協助他們,這個才是重點。第一個是"},{"start":29787.052,"end":29787.192,"text":"但是﹖"},{"start":29812.663,"end":29812.883,"text":"我請主委回答"},{"start":29832.25,"end":29832.47,"text":"我舉個例子"},{"start":29857.182,"end":29879.722,"text":"很多大廠、很多螺絲廠我們進去盤點它有2萬多顆螺絲但是一個機器用不了那麼多螺絲是因為他們不懂得效率去共用零件那我們就會協助他共用零件然後共用採購、共用資本另外我們在創新創業會引導創新創業的人才進到這個地方來幫忙做它的自動化的部分"},{"start":29880.242,"end":29907.576,"text":"主委我知道政府有這些措施但是我會要求你去盤點一下政府的這些措施到底呢有幫助到多少的中小企業您所說的以你剛剛講的工具機為主的話有多少間公司而這些的公司的在整體的比例又是佔多少我會提醒你這一點是什麼我這個頁面最重要的一句話中小企業數百萬家就業人口因為中小企業傳統產業照顧"},{"start":29909.497,"end":29910.238,"text":"我希望政府照顧得到他們"},{"start":29938.436,"end":29940.358,"text":"謝謝何新淳委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第55號陳玉珍委員質詢。再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":29968.193,"end":29983.249,"text":"今天這個新聞有報導有漁民募集共軍的這個東溝市的這個東溝市級的這個河前艦在這個臺灣海峽這個應該是海峽的中線海峽中線不到海峽中線應該是比較偏我們金門這邊這個發現那通報有通報有漁民通報"},{"start":29989.775,"end":29999.04,"text":"那我們這個海軍有獎勵軍民合作以前有提出一個獎勵辦法發現軍艦跟公務船這個民眾回報有獎金您知道這個辦法嗎?"},{"start":30001.15,"end":30019.294,"text":"知道嗎?是。好,這個。那我們不會說,我們不宜來曝光這個漁民的身份。那想知道過去5年齁,成功拍下軍艦領獎後,領獎金的案件數有多少?跟委員報告,我們大概112年是通報一件獎金1萬,121年是通報3件獎金3萬。"},{"start":30022.97,"end":30052.199,"text":"在之前的比較多,那我手上還沒有一個數字,那如果會後有...那您看部長,那您看這個拍下這些公務船啊、客沿船啊,這個這幾年有沒有增加這個趨勢?通報的這個趨勢?沒有,反而降低。反而降低齁?我剛剛講就是說111年,111年比較多,111年以後只有三屆,112年只有一屆。那院長您了解說為什麼這個前件會在這裡浮起來呢?院長。"},{"start":30055.269,"end":30070.139,"text":"請國防部還在瞭解這整個過程跟他實際上的為什麼這個原因?跟委員報告,我們按照我們相關的情節手段已經有掌握相關的這個潛艦的動態,然後在中線以西…講慢一點大聲一點聽不清楚"},{"start":30070.481,"end":30084.507,"text":"在中線儀器以浮潛的方式來進行,那相關其他我們因為涉及到一些我們情節的手段,我想細節的部分我們知道偵查手段,你知道原因嗎?根據我請教這個軍事專家的結論,他是這樣說,他說這個臺灣海峽這個中線儀器這個地方因為是潛灘,比較危險,所以這個潛艦經過那個地方大概都用浮航的方式來進行。"},{"start":30096.926,"end":30123.196,"text":"這是我請教軍事專家的是,那個地方相當的在只有幾十米而已啊?比較淺啊?幾十公尺而已所以如果這個我們請教軍事專家齁如果確實這樣子大概也要把資訊公開因為這個大概有就不是怎樣的說非常的好像是什麼兵凶戰危啊不要弄到這麼好像很緊張齁那院長請問您了解金門嗎?我去過金門去過金門幾趟"},{"start":30127.228,"end":30154.335,"text":"兩三趟吧兩趟啦我公開記錄是有兩趟我看到是有兩趟因為我知道您甚至也是民意代表出身嘛所以一定也是以這個民意民意為依歸也解決人民痛苦也是大概你從以前開始擔任民意代表一樣的好到現在擔任這個行政院長我們看到媒體報導您到金門過兩次一次是2018年的12月擔任行政院的秘書長陪同我們現在的賴總統那時候的行政院長去看"},{"start":30154.855,"end":30161.28,"text":"另外一次是很早以前2006年6月當任總統府秘書長的時候陪同陳水扁總統去前線看防務的整備這兩次應該都還有印象吧"},{"start":30172.641,"end":30196.824,"text":"有印象,那您看看金門之前是實行這個戰地政務,在民國81年以前實行戰地政務,11月7日又解除戰地政務,比台灣解除戒嚴是76年晚了5年。那您看從解除戰地政務到現在這個民主政治這個發展,那開始全面性的建設。您知道這一段的這個時候金門跟台灣,因為你現在貴為行政院長,不是"},{"start":30197.892,"end":30198.773,"text":"您看這個跟台灣其他縣市這個歷史軌跡你有了解嗎?"},{"start":30210.325,"end":30232.905,"text":"我一直很希望能夠再到金門去,看看金門那個很有特色的建築物,以及經過戰地政務解除之後,我覺得它的社會風情有相當大的改變。人跟人之間可以更緊密的接觸,而且產業、觀光也有跟以前不一樣的發展趨勢。戰地政務時期遺留下一些歷史問題,不知道院長有沒有了解?"},{"start":30233.465,"end":30246.853,"text":"那個也是一個歷史的記憶,我覺得那個保存下來對金門來講就是一個資產。對,除了是記憶以外當然是觀光資產。事實上還有幾樣是跟人民權利有相關的。我先讓您先有一個概念。最重要在金門來講,長年不斷的陳情問題大概就是土地的問題。"},{"start":30251.235,"end":30272.352,"text":"所以環地移民一直是非常重要的政策,那政策之前就是後來軍方慢慢撤軍,所以軍方很多土地,早年軍方來以後佔了很多土地,包括有些地方埋地雷,所以很多金門鄉縣的土地它就不能進入營區,也不能進去,像我們以前小時候掃墓的時候,只有掃墓可以進去,阿兵哥幫我們開起來,我們走進去這樣子。"},{"start":30274.233,"end":30292.578,"text":"現在慢慢撤軍,軍人就從以前的比如說10萬大軍到現在很少了,到現在很少人,那現在慢慢很多營區就是環地漁民啊,就撤出來就空了,空了就還給民眾。那之前我們在修離島建制條約的時候有規定說,在民國109年以前啊,就是大家可以就是把土地要回去。"},{"start":30292.898,"end":30316.204,"text":"但是那時候還要大家花錢買回原來祖先留下來的土地那是到109年以前那截止但是問題是國軍的這個撤軍不是一天撤完他是慢慢慢慢撤到現在事實上還有慢慢有一些營區慢慢在撤出當中那請問如果在109年以後撤出了這些營區那也有百姓的土地可是因為我們離島建立條例的時間已經到了購回土地的時間是109年後來就沒有這個法源依據了"},{"start":30321.866,"end":30340.121,"text":"那現在民眾要怎麼辦呢?跟委員報告一下,這個就是涉及到那個離島建設條例的第九條。對對,第九條。所以我想委員應該都很清楚,它是有一個公告期限。對對對。如果在公告期限內就是可以申請以當年的公告地價來購買。"},{"start":30341.002,"end":30366.946,"text":"沒錯沒錯那當初那個軍方說這前面都知道齁就是軍方說因為他常回一個公文比如現在還在使用比如說去年我們還在使用所以你沒有辦法申請購回因為還是屬於軍方在使用的營區那這幾年軍方有一些營區也慢慢撤出了那百姓開始要求說那我們的土地可以還給我們的那可是109年已經過了那不然我們國防部長也是大律師你看這個有沒有什麼不用修法的解決方式"},{"start":30369.306,"end":30384.437,"text":"您知道我的意思嗎?就是法源是到109年但是土地是在109年軍方才撤出才開始讓民眾申請購回那在這之前購回的時候申請的時候軍方說對不起我們還在使用你不能購回"},{"start":30387.34,"end":30399.536,"text":"委員我的理解好像是在103年國安會修法的時候,當時就已經檢討了沒有公用需求的這一個你再說一次,大聲一點就行"},{"start":30400.626,"end":30427.312,"text":"在103年國安會立法修正離島條例第9條條文的時候就已經檢討就是說沒有公用需求的部分就已經都交出來了那事實上是很多現在是慢慢測現在還有營區是有慢慢的交出來在109年到現在113年還是有這樣的情形這個事情要怎麼處理這一類的情形您回去研究一下國安部長也是法律專家像這個時間109年已經過了"},{"start":30430.393,"end":30457.178,"text":"但是事實上軍方現在撤出的這是第一點那第二點還有早期因為基本上有很多島內生活很多到南洋去我們叫做裸歡那現在這些鄉親旅居南洋的這個僑親資訊不了解所以錯過這些時間有沒有什麼彌補的方法有沒有什麼購回的權利您了解嗎不用規定到109年但是他們在南洋可能慢慢的才收到訊息"},{"start":30458.098,"end":30480.065,"text":"我的了解好像是後來在110年的時候,那個國安會好像還是有在邀請金門跟連江縣政府,包括其他內政部啊,財政部、國產署、單位研商。然後內政部的有認為就是說李老建設條例的第九條的過回規定呢,"},{"start":30480.745,"end":30486.066,"text":"我知道我知道,我也問過國產署這個問題,他說如果這樣子也會有這個情形產生嘛,但是我說的不是全部的工地,我說的是至少針對軍方原來這些營區嘛,我也問過"},{"start":30502.45,"end":30526.161,"text":"那個就是國產署這個問題以前我也問過109年之前我就問過了他說這樣會到不確定性那開發上土地上有很多各方面的那如果遇到這個情形你們研究一下今天也沒有辦法這邊要到答案但是也要想辦法這個問題民眾這個問題要怎麼解決委員意思是109年截止之後軍方土地才離開對軍方土地有的在之前民眾申請嘛那接著軍方現在撤了"},{"start":30526.601,"end":30554.761,"text":"一百零九年之後民眾是不可能申請的。對,因為沒有法源依據。本來就是民眾的,是因為那時候之前申請的時候,軍方說我們還在使用。還在使用。那理論上,如果在台灣地區哪有這種事情,我們的土地就是我們的土地,還可以用。金門地方跟軍方關係比較好,一般軍方說怎樣好,大家就是協商一下看怎麼樣。但是現在法源依據就沒有了。想看是不是怎麼樣來修法來解決這樣的問題啦。"},{"start":30556.822,"end":30584.744,"text":"這個你們回去研究一下這個是我跟委員報告我想回去再瞭解一下有沒有您講的109年之後才釋出的這一個就是在那時候申請的這一個部分對您瞭解一下好不好因為有接到不少這樣的陳情案另外一個還有金門這個土地在推動基礎建設的時候會用到私有地那沒有足夠的補償金所以金門很多政府就是用公共設施的時候土地都沒有被補償那原因"},{"start":30586.545,"end":30609.576,"text":"早年,院長您瞭解金門的這個政治組織嗎?您瞭解嗎?以前就是在這個,您瞭解台灣省對不對?就是管這個台灣澎湖嘛。那金門是歸福建省管,您知道吧?知道嗎?我們福建省就管金門麻竹,還有淪陷的地區管不到的。"},{"start":30612.657,"end":30635.545,"text":"趙玲玥有一個臺灣省。臺灣省這個轄下的地方政府會有一個公共設施徵收補償金。因為我們不是臺灣省,我們是福建省。我的身份證到現在也是福建省。我是福建省金門縣,中華民國。我是福建省,但是我們做那些縣道都是我們自己出錢。"},{"start":30637.847,"end":30660.336,"text":"包括到現在是到了彩化法這個後面還會再跟您講比如說早年因為有台灣省那他不管那個水嗎那個自來水的水用水的水他管水那台灣省那以後這些都全部歸給中央去管嗎您了解嗎那金門嗎金門以前就不是台灣省那這個台灣省也沒有以後你知道歸誰管嗎你知道歸誰管嗎在金門"},{"start":30665.589,"end":30695.589,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":30695.589,"end":30715.572,"text":"議員"},{"start":30716.772,"end":30734.221,"text":"在臺灣導致中央的事情啊,在金門應該是中央的事吧?像台北市有台北市在管啊?對啊,台北市直轄市啊,直轄市金門平原地區,對不對?所以應該歸給中央管嘛,對不對?那好,沒關係我們幫忙管也就罷了。好,我們來幫忙墊錢。"},{"start":30736.062,"end":30755.428,"text":"因為要做一些建設嘛,中央這個經濟部,各位兩位,經濟部和財政部,來,下面兩位,經濟部和財政部,那我們幫忙墊錢吧,墊錢做一些水的這個設施嘛,好,那做設施以後,因為金門縣沒有錢嘛,我們就跟誰借錢,跟你左邊那一位借錢,跟財政部借錢。"},{"start":30757.149,"end":30773.426,"text":"財政部借錢,那因為我們是說這個經濟部要做的是水利署要做嘛齁,那是水利署要出錢,所以說啊不然你金門先生你先做啦齁,做了以後以後我們錢還給你,他說沒有錢啊,沒有錢怎麼辦啊,沒有錢跟財政部借啊,我們就跟財政部借錢。財政部我們是不是跟你借的錢?"},{"start":30775.402,"end":30775.702,"text":"兩位知道嗎?兩位部長知道嗎?"},{"start":30799.963,"end":30806.566,"text":"金門縣是跟我地方建設基金借了10億來謝謝我讓院長了解一下我讓院長了解現在的情形好那現在這個地方建設基金他們說要結編了嘛就是要結束對不對"},{"start":30817.532,"end":30817.932,"text":"總酬分配款"},{"start":30841.876,"end":30860.436,"text":"聽說是要溝通被封的管理。這是你應該處理,你左手那個不給錢啊。要還給右手那個,你右手那個要還給左手那個。院長啊,你要主持一下公道。怎麼處理勒?國務院長啊,因為他才覺得你也交不了財,經濟部。他了解他了解,我跟他在財政委員會提過了。"},{"start":30861.216,"end":30871.861,"text":"對,金門縣政府是跟地方建設基金借錢,那借款期限是5年,那在今年的113年1月已經到期了,那就應該把它還嘛。目前來說,借了10月,還有2億元沒有還嘛。那我們現在跟說經濟部拜託錢來,要還給財政部。那為什麼經濟部怎麼說,2億是?"},{"start":30884.198,"end":30900.023,"text":"我不是行政院長對不對?這是你們自己中央政府的事情。經濟部什麼時候要換監?你不了解齁?你了解一下喔?是不是反過來?不然這個財政部說要扣我們的什麼統籌分配法。財政部剛剛有跟我講了。因為我問的問題很多,我還會跟他再問,但是院長。"},{"start":30911.776,"end":30927.32,"text":"委員因為其實這是兩件事情當然經濟部要當時有承諾說要給予這個水價的一個差價補貼嘛那也給了大概有70%大概在111年已經給金門縣政府差價補貼嘛重點是目前還有30還沒有給那所以這個部分"},{"start":30934.162,"end":30948.171,"text":"可是跟地方建設基金借的錢,我們是依照借款。我知道我知道,應該還你們的,可是這是經濟部的事情,你不要在我面前左手右手自己打架,院長你回去想要怎麼處理。這個本來是你們的事情,我們是幫你做,我們是幫你做,那水不就是你們的事情嗎?我聽懂了,那兩筆錢。"},{"start":30952.634,"end":30963.366,"text":"沒有啦我跟你講回歸到底這個水的事情是歸誰管歸我金門縣政府出錢喔這個經濟部財政部這個兩筆錢來來再不要講不要講說我來報告院長再不要講這個錢光這個工我們幫你做欸照財政部講這是兩筆錢歸地方建設基金的還有就是水價補貼的是兩筆錢我們就用那個補貼的錢來還給他嘛"},{"start":30974.478,"end":30983.142,"text":"啊不然你叫我們去...因為本來這個錢就是...院長院長你回去了解清楚你回到癥結點齁回到最高的癥結點就是這個事情應該歸誰管這些錢應該誰出"},{"start":30986.969,"end":31006.391,"text":"當初經濟部承諾說他會給嘛,我們先電了。我們也沒錢跟財政部見。我知道我知道。是啊,你站在中間嘛,你站在這裡看,左右都是你管的,你回去想想辦法。我必須站在中間,兩邊才能平衡啊。是是是,但是我們不應該站在裡頭,那是你們重要的事情啊。"},{"start":31007.432,"end":31012.114,"text":"議長,我知道他在說什麼,他說該還錢的要還啦,你再去跟經濟部要啦。他已經跟我說了,經濟部在這邊...他現在不是這麼說,他說"},{"start":31022.731,"end":31040.813,"text":"他是這樣跟我講的,要還嘛,叫我去跟經濟部講,那沒關係,我也不要在這裡跟你爭,因為我還有好多問題,你去瞭解一下,我要回到最源頭,最源頭,最源頭,這個事情歸誰?歸中央嘛,所以幹嘛歸我金門縣政府,要去出錢做這些事情。好,那不過我要跟你講一下齁,倒是齁,"},{"start":31041.834,"end":31042.174,"text":"﹚大陸接水"},{"start":31061.611,"end":31084.181,"text":"但是這個我們依賴大陸的用水事實上很深那但這五年來也的確因為大陸有供水所以在讓我們免於乾旱但是我看兩岸局勢現在這麼緊張對不對所以我建議經濟部也要去盤點一下我們這個這個自由的這個水的這個資源再比如說不管是照水或是各方面要去想一下不然我覺得真的"},{"start":31084.801,"end":31084.821,"text":"好,這個..."},{"start":31101.353,"end":31116.569,"text":"中國跟臺灣兩邊這個雖然社會制度不同對於這個主權的意見還是分歧但是對人民的生活不應該把它當作一個籌碼來對對對所以我們希望善意的對待領導人應該有機會有善意去面對"},{"start":31121.254,"end":31142.927,"text":"﹗"},{"start":31143.983,"end":31169.673,"text":"經濟那個我們這個政府我們中央政府這幾年來吼就合定的這個有關的這個相關的這個建設我先跟你講一下小山通路課這個部分吼為什麼談到金門大分都會談到兩岸吼從民國大概90幾年到100多年這十幾年吶不管是哪一位總統吼從這個陳水扁總統呃馬英九總統到蔡英文總統任內吼中央所合定的這個相關的這個建設計畫裡頭金門的定位一直是"},{"start":31170.594,"end":31171.254,"text":"兩岸的和平島"},{"start":31177.372,"end":31179.693,"text":"大陸客在金門創造的產值總共大概是一年最少是20億"},{"start":31207.307,"end":31228.954,"text":"二十億,那二十億現在入客沒有蒸發一點,我們金門就損失二十億,那損失二十億的話,其實各行各業實際上都蠻慘的,因為沒有觀光客,那加上最近的台海局勢緊張,那台灣的客人也會覺得說好像是不是會危險,所以相對去的也就相對少,那我們的這個江湖在那裡,對於這個金門的這個相關的這個"},{"start":31232.615,"end":31248.467,"text":"關光的這個幫助齁,可能要加強一點,一定要加強一點啦,第一個。那第二個,面見不方便喔,我們有一些國家公園喔,我們要求一些民宿業者,或者這些旅店,就是一些小賣店喔,因為這,因為這疫情其實很慘。"},{"start":31249.427,"end":31266.913,"text":"現在沒有開放觀光客沒有開放入客又很慘等於是整個收入都非常低所以我們當初在金門跟這個金門這個國家公園開一個會討論就是說是不是這個部分按比照這個疫情期間看觀光客來多少大概大概總共大概不是很多錢幾百萬吧"},{"start":31267.873,"end":31287.634,"text":"是不是這個部分比照來減、降低這個減點租金啦,有關國家公園的相關的這部分。這個部分已經送到我們內政部了嘛,內政部已經合了,下一個的單位是財政部。內政部是已經合了嘛,那是不是院長這邊是盡快幫我們合一下。內政部應該可以講一下,內政部了解這個事情吧。"},{"start":31288.382,"end":31298.051,"text":"謝謝陳委員您剛所提到金門國家公園裡面的一些招租戶裡面想要租金減免的部分那我們現在就是會依據財政部所說的就是說他原來的租賃貸款裡面如果有約定減租條款或是按照法制作業的話就可以訂定減免的規定"},{"start":31314.426,"end":31328.44,"text":"您們想辦法啦齁,這一個部分請院長也是去想辦法啦齁,這個實在現在各行各業都很慘啦齁,那至少政府可以做的部分是國家公園這個部分可以幫忙啦齁,那你來想想看為什麼陸客不來齁,就是齁,你也知道我也是希望"},{"start":31329.724,"end":31354.46,"text":"我也不希望這個事情發生在金門,但這件事情就是發生了,也很不幸,就是0214的事件,就是金門當初那個兩個大陸漁民嘛,那不就是繁複,繁複了以後就大體就留在金門嘛,而金門現在這個事情就一直沒解決,我不瞞您說,我去問得很清楚了,金門的沒有開放,連馬祖不是有開放彩線團,也很快會開放了,沒有會來啦,下去就來了,對很肯定,然後"},{"start":31358.003,"end":31381.28,"text":"我剛去參加海峽論壇有去請教這個相關事宜我說馬祖我是金門立委我是要金門開放觀光那要金門開放觀光但是就是0214事情沒有解決我也不希望這件事情掛在一起我說真的我真的千不希望他們為什麼當初要這件事情發生在金門金門跟大陸關係一直是相當的良好那發生這個事情我們大家也很遺憾那就是沒有解決"},{"start":31381.94,"end":31402.855,"text":"沒有解決的話我們包括有一個金門的鄉親迷航到大鱷去那天你說可以去帶家屬去看這個我也會找時間過去但是現在是這樣子這件事情沒有解決呢我們金門的顧客也沒有辦法開放觀光呢那在上一次我這個事情因為也這麼多天100多天了127天了那之前我在質詢我們這個前一段這個"},{"start":31405.769,"end":31430.108,"text":"陳建林院長的時候那個陳院長是那時候他說對於發生密閉事件感到遺憾臺灣是這下面都這些都陳院長講的臺灣是民主法治國家檢察官依證據偵查辦理後才能知道真相該道歉就道歉該賠償就賠償這個卓院長這是陳建林院長說您的立場是一樣的嗎"},{"start":31431.429,"end":31449.072,"text":"這是一件重大的事件陳院長已經做過這樣的指示我認為海委會也是朝這個方向在做很多的溝通那即使到現在或許還存在一些問題但是我深刻的不希望因為個案的事件影響到未來雙方的繼續的交流跟發展"},{"start":31449.492,"end":31450.552,"text":"部長,現在已經127天了,你要調查多久?"},{"start":31478.073,"end":31502.059,"text":"跟委員報告齁,那這個案件目前就是在送鑑定在...我知道!你上一任部長我就問他了,他就說在送鑑定,現在...現在還在鑑定還在...請問還要鑑定多久?我們是有希望那個鑑定單位能夠禁訴...禁訴是多久?這部分因為設施專家鑑定,我也沒辦法...你告訴我已經鑑定多久了?你鑑定什麼我告訴你啊,你知道鑑定什麼嗎?"},{"start":31503.092,"end":31509.158,"text":"這部份是由金門地檢的檢察官偵辦,就是由那個檢察官來做的。從事情上那些,從我開始瞭解宋專家現在好幾個月的捏。"},{"start":31527.213,"end":31533.998,"text":"我想這個檢察官這部分他會依法來處理。我知道會依法處理。我即便在法院鑑定也是有一個時間的吧。一個月、兩個月、三個月、五個月還是半年還是兩年。"},{"start":31558.224,"end":31580.296,"text":"總要有一個時間吧。我不相信這種鑑定機關給的時間是永無止限的。多久?那你了解一下吧。已經鑑定多久了?連院長都說已經4個月,是不是未免...而且他影響到整個金門的發展。鑑定結果怎麼樣我們不會去那個嘛,對不對?專家會去鑑定。總不能鑑定3年5年吧?"},{"start":31583.459,"end":31607.774,"text":"這本我們這個意見我們會轉達給不是轉達嘛 院長您是不是覺得也是太久了這個能夠釐清事實釐清事實當然啦 有永無止境的釐清事實嗎 鑑定五年嗎海事的鑑定是不是有它的複雜性 而且專家學者就一條船碰到我們律師在那裡一般那個大律師我們國防部長一般你們的鑑定要進行到三年五年了嗎 那個專業律師在那裡啊"},{"start":31611.533,"end":31612.363,"text":"一般經營要那麼久嗎?"},{"start":31614.5,"end":31639.233,"text":"我們就是讓...我也尊重專家鑑定,但是我不想要...因為他已經講到整個...因為這件事情沒有一個解決金門...我也不願意,我跟你們說我也不願意這樣子,對吧?當然我們也是希望能夠鑑定能夠...大律師這個我們這個國防部長是這個...一般鑑定可以鑑定到已經三個月四個月了,是要鑑定多久了?你看你以你的這個專家經驗...跟委員報告兩點喔,第一點"},{"start":31644.403,"end":31670.329,"text":"各案的鑑定長短與否要看這個案子他留存的相關的證據然後的情況然後他們要判斷的這些個別的事就是一條船碰到另外一條船這樣子那兩條船現在都在金門我想我沒有辦法去講說你打了官司經驗有沒有鑑定個五年的你告訴我三年你的經驗就我個人的"},{"start":31672.046,"end":31678.733,"text":"過去擔任律師的經驗應該不至於會鑑定這麼久。這是第一點。第二點呢,各案的偵辦一定要尊重。一定要尊重鑑定。"},{"start":31689.656,"end":31713.656,"text":"大律師對不起部長謝謝您的這個寶貴經驗沒有那麼久的啦拜託加快速度因為這是涉及重大公益重大這個金門的這個發展好那這個院長所以真心也請您我們不下去影響他到底要怎麼結果總是效率要好一點我會請部長去了解一下鑑定到目前的程度以及未來他可能的時間抓出一個時間點讓我們共同來往那個時間點努力"},{"start":31714.597,"end":31740.903,"text":"好,那那個院長我們下去就要修這個財政收支劃分法嘛。我想您自己也在說這個部分的話,你們院也要提出院版嗎?我們院版就是現在的版本。現在版就,因為您不提出新的院版嘛齁。我們只要照這個來把它做一些更合理的討論是可以的。合理的討論是可以,好。我們基本上,我們離島有三個縣市,以前有300億的這個離島建設基金,您知道嘛。那現在?"},{"start":31741.943,"end":31741.963,"text":"委員長"},{"start":31762.199,"end":31783.635,"text":"阿你有公平嗎?我先問你我先問你啦不是我先問你這樣有沒有公平阿跟委員報告有關那個財政收支劃分法我們對於離島的部分因為時間到了我們回財政我知道我知道我們才回財政我會繼續講"},{"start":31787.722,"end":31788.444,"text":"謝謝陳義正委員質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第56位陳金輝委員質詢。"},{"start":31804.761,"end":31833.721,"text":"主席各位官員不好意思我今天發生了緊急的聲帶發言水中的窘境雖然我上台前有吃藥打針可是聲音還是沒有辦法恢復的很好但是我有很多問題想要跟院長還有官員們討論所以懇請韓院長允許我輔助使用葛如軍委員協助開發的AI沉浸會的聲音來進行質詢還有提問謝謝不好意思"},{"start":31837.621,"end":31858.297,"text":"本席認為,假使未來有委員遇到相同的狀況,或者是身體上有其極限的委員,比如說健動症的患者,這是未來可以供我們參考的應用。經過此次的質詢,也希望大家可以反思,是不是意識人員部分的工作,我們就交由AI來協助。"},{"start":31859.378,"end":31859.558,"text":"：第11屆第1會期第18次會議"},{"start":31879.614,"end":31903.968,"text":"打斷我自己以便回答相信未來呢如果我們可以把這個技術再精進得更好我相信立法院、行政院都可以率先來事辦、試行這樣可以大大的減少我們現在很多醫事人員官員們overload的現象很謝謝主席的允許接下來我想請主任院長還有國發會主委"},{"start":31906.275,"end":31906.957,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。國發費請備詢。"},{"start":31917.646,"end":31940.477,"text":"委員長恭喜陳元豪你辛苦了多保重啊謝謝隨時喝口茶少子化是國外危機這一個蔡前總統的定調目前有沒有改變而過去賴總統當行政院長時主政並推出少子化計畫但他的總統就職演說中竟一句話都沒有提到您認為這代表總統跟行政院還有重視嗎"},{"start":31943.389,"end":31962.735,"text":"剛出少子化對策計畫引用林萬億政委的報告說少子女化對策有三個目標確保嬰幼兒的照顧品質與健全成長這個代表數據是幼童死亡率我上次已經質詢過蔡政府跳票性別公平這個是很大的議題"},{"start":31963.655,"end":31980.003,"text":"有很多方方面面,但我們現在來檢討第三提升生育率的部分。院長,您知不知道我們最新的生育率數字是多少?不到0.9吧。好,我們來下公布答案。當初"},{"start":31985.295,"end":32004.02,"text":"國發會負責中央政府的人口發展統整,並且花經費做預測系統,名字叫人口推估查詢系統,還把預測做到2070年。院長您用過嗎?您覺得這個系統準嗎?我也已經貼在旁邊,我知道您會說有很多因素,"},{"start":32004.66,"end":32016.655,"text":"不過這個系統確實預測失準。你們說要找人口、社會學家、專家討論。那我想問,你們有沒有公視在專門處理這件事?背後的參數是什麼?"},{"start":32018.485,"end":32037.51,"text":"抱歉,這個網站我確實是沒有進去過,但如果存在很多問題,國發會應該要立刻的去查明而且改善。那你現在看到2070年這樣子的數據,我們一年的新生兒只有7萬人,去年我們是大概13.5萬人。13萬多。你有什麼感覺嗎?你覺得這個國發會開發的人口推估預測準確嗎?"},{"start":32043.692,"end":32044.272,"text":"好,我們現在公佈答案"},{"start":32074.92,"end":32084.452,"text":"來,最左邊是我們國發會的網站。原本預測我們2023年、2024年的出生率,我們居然是預測0.95、1.05。我們來看一下。"},{"start":32090.637,"end":32117.573,"text":"請問就是因為我去看了你們的出生率預測我看了感覺奇怪有點看不懂左邊這張圖表是從民進黨政府執政之後的出生率2016年到2022年是實際值就是確定的我們可以看到少子化對策的成效其實應該是要檢討的執政那麼多年結果出生率一節一節掉我們來細看每一年的數字"},{"start":32118.353,"end":32118.393,"text":"是0.865啊"},{"start":32143.508,"end":32155.718,"text":"所以我們國家在2021年是全球最後一名2022、2023是全球倒數第二名至今都是一樣韓國2022、20230.7他們預測2024年是0.68他們自己有可是我們預測我們自己是1.05耶這其中是有什麼自信嗎還是貓膩嗎"},{"start":32173.11,"end":32186.111,"text":"報告委員這個預測值如果是呈現是這個樣子顯示當時的預測跟現在時期是失準的那對這個部分政府應該做檢討我們如果把他"},{"start":32188.24,"end":32190.742,"text":"我是說你們可不可以預測的不要這麼寬?因為我們來看下一個問題。你們到2070年的預測出了什麼問題?"},{"start":32209.634,"end":32209.654,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":32233.074,"end":32249.002,"text":"報告委員我相信當時這樣的預測一定是經過政策的研討之後在政策的輔佐底下算出來的那因為社會環境整個大環境的變遷很多當時可能沒有算到這些但是我現在我承認如果是剛剛那個預測值跟事實上不準"},{"start":32249.915,"end":32252.216,"text":"接下來是攸關我們行政院的官員的福祉所以我們來看一下"},{"start":32282.102,"end":32299.972,"text":"我們要來看公家單位的狀況。你們的計畫裡面說要擴大公部門托育服務示範效果。除了現在有洽簽特約方式外,希望各機關托育需求評估設置托育設施。這點現在進度如何?"},{"start":32302.369,"end":32318.243,"text":"就拿這個行政院來看吧他可能很多是空間的設置都受到規範而且沒有做這個需求的調查那這個部分如果放到各個單位各個部會去也許都面臨類似或是不同的問題那我們可以來"},{"start":32319.828,"end":32344.543,"text":"對今天委員所提出的這個問題我們來做討論這個公務機關曾經人事有去調查過他們的需求他們都有提出需求像海委會對托嬰需求有22個孩子托兒需求有48個孩子外交部有11個孩子托嬰的需求22個孩子育兒的需求結果呢我們搜尋了你們自己建立的網站"},{"start":32345.223,"end":32359.188,"text":"因為院長說得很好,少子化方方面面,托育也是您自己說的,0到6歲國家養也是您自己說的,可是看這邊喔,行政院、海委會、外交部是通通沒有進度啊。這個部分我跟委員報告一下,事實上要設這個托育中心我們在衛福部有一些比較嚴格的一個規範,那這幾年"},{"start":32372.176,"end":32399.979,"text":"事實上政府也投入很多的資源像行政院事實上在財政部還有文化部相關部會那行政院部門部本身是因為他的辦公空間的限制那在海委會新的他們在現在在籌辦籌劃蓋的那個大樓裡面他也有把投營的設施直接都納進來那外交部的情況"},{"start":32400.521,"end":32402.173,"text":"跟行政院的情況是會比較一樣"},{"start":32402.796,"end":32430.518,"text":"但是我是不為他們請命因為像立法院臨近的公務機關也會來登記我們托嬰中心所以現在我們那個候補已經100多個了已經100多個了所以這並不是說沒有需求其實有需求我們既然希望這些爸媽可以多省像如果行政院您願意的話您知道您的副發言人上個週末也辦了揭曉性別party"},{"start":32431.946,"end":32434.307,"text":"我承諾我們回去就這個問題真的是要把我來討論檢討"},{"start":32455.452,"end":32482.427,"text":"好既然如果沒有特別的設施我們也幫行政院的同仁去搜尋了這個有相關配合的機構結果搜尋得不得了居然托嬰是跟一家在宜蘭一家在高雄做配合那托兒呢是五家台北市的而且很遠啊離行政院都非常的遠所以我"},{"start":32482.927,"end":32511.172,"text":"我們在這邊很誠懇的建議可以先從公部門我們把它做好。畢竟行政院是一個這麼大的部門。好的。謝謝委員。好,是。那我們來探討下一個。我們在看蔡政府期間報公央這個人口政策匯報卓院長你也知道106年5月開過一次這個賴清德總統當行政院長的時候停止這個您知道嗎?"},{"start":32512.572,"end":32513.572,"text":"主委院長你知道嗎?那我們看一下下一頁。"},{"start":32534.851,"end":32561.093,"text":"來,那我們再看少子化辦公室也是成立沒多久就結束。每集明說併入少子女化對策方案的業務,但其實就是在停擺。看到右下角簡報的衛福部專題報告內容,衛福部低調地承認少子化辦公室不過只是衛福部內的編組而已,加上國內沒有跟其他單位對話,這也難怪草草退場。"},{"start":32562.054,"end":32575.055,"text":"所以院長敢不敢承諾恢復賴清德總統擔任院長時喊卡的行政院人口政策匯報,將少子化這種國安議題至少重新拉升回到行政院層級來嚴肅處理。"},{"start":32578.274,"end":32598.315,"text":"我們在推動少子化的少子化的對策計畫當中我們整合了11個部會那現在這個要讓它功能產生如果在院內我們可以舉行這個必要的會議的話讓它能夠功能產生落實下去那少子化的辦公室因為現在衛福部已經在這個業務上面這個政策上在做確診執行了我們請衛福部來答詢一下"},{"start":32602.045,"end":32630.067,"text":"好,我想少子化是我們一直所有部會都認為是最重都把它當成是一個追求的一個目標所以相關的政策都會跟少子化來相關院長剛有別的委員問到我們這個少子化計畫快要結束了快要結束了,到11、3年我們認為對國家未來有必要的計畫在時程上我們可以來調整"},{"start":32633.575,"end":32653.308,"text":"好,剛有提到就是要育嬰育兒的方面要顧嘛,所以我們也來看一下,其實我剛剛才跟邱部長去參加WHA的一個世界醫師聯盟的早餐會,這個會長他是一個北歐的女醫師,他聽完我們的育嬰,"},{"start":32654.349,"end":32657.693,"text":"我今天想讓院長看一下我們是如何落後於世界"},{"start":32670.865,"end":32691.569,"text":"但我們直接來看勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所在110年提出的育嬰留職停薪津貼政策對於育兒勞工之影響及相關輔助政策探討150幾頁的報告我們整理了報告中研究其他國家的經驗與數據後發現我們真的跟不上國際"},{"start":32695.51,"end":32717.228,"text":"不論有薪資的州數或生育率這些國家都是比我們還要高所以我要呼籲院長如果國際做得到我們沒有道理做不到也不用那麼多藉口理由就是提高產價的州數就算不是一次到位12州但從我們輸產其他國家的州數真的要趕快趕上"},{"start":32719.409,"end":32731.47,"text":"剛剛我們有提過我們會跟透過勞動部跟勞僱雙方啊來談一個未來合理的進步但是我也很嚮往台灣成為北歐那種社會福利國家但是我們應該"},{"start":32732.867,"end":32734.327,"text":"分享日本政府的做法。"},{"start":32755.313,"end":32784.372,"text":"因為日本的社會風氣導致男性要申請育嬰假會遇到更多的挑戰跟困難所以他們的後生勞動省就要求100人以上的企業應該要訂定男性育嬰假目標從上而下改變育兒環境不只有給女性更多的補貼與休假我們更要鼓勵男性承擔起照顧養育的意識與責任這樣才能達到家庭分工的平權"},{"start":32785.493,"end":32812.882,"text":"真正讓所有的勞工都受到照顧與保障這部分具體建議院長希望可以多多學習國外好的經驗追求平權是我們一向的目標那好的政策無論是哪一個國家我們都希望吸取新的知識新的政策我們來做一些評比跟研究謝謝我很期待這個少子化計畫下一年度的版本"},{"start":32814.659,"end":32840.245,"text":"這是今天才公布的,我們來看一下。卓議院長,今天瑞士洛桑管理學院IMD針對今年世界競爭力有一個最新的報告。臺灣在世界競爭力的整體排名今年是第8名,但是我們醫療與環境卻是第24名,並且回顧過去5年的成績,其實都沒有進步,在24與26名之間徘徊不淺。"},{"start":32847.732,"end":32870.206,"text":"臺灣的醫療技術與服務是聞名全球這無可否認。上個月我代表前往WHA參加各種國際會議與各國專家學者們交流時大家都是先讚嘆臺灣醫療服務一級棒很感謝各國代表的讚美與祝福但有一個真相卻是頂級醫療服務品質"},{"start":32872.467,"end":32895.817,"text":"是所有醫護人員協和打拼所成就出來的。反觀政府對於醫療環境基礎建設的投資卻是寥寥無幾,成效有限。本席一再強調臺灣的醫療是建立在協和醫護之上,僅用著第24名的醫療建設卻有世界第一名的醫療品質。"},{"start":32897.558,"end":32918.973,"text":"現在仰賴的就是醫護的熱情和愛本期非常擔心燒完用完的一天總規矩請院長能多多為醫護著想改善醫療環境雖然我們在過去幾年我們的公衛體系有受到國際的矚目跟一定成就但是剛剛這個評比"},{"start":32921.309,"end":32928.934,"text":"與其去看評比內容的項目我倒願意優先看看我們實際的醫療環境哪個地方還是缺失的我們直接來補齊"},{"start":32951.669,"end":32954.29,"text":"接下來我們來看賴總統的健康臺灣有一個三高一勝的免費篩檢也就是說我們把"},{"start":32978.436,"end":32987.078,"text":"首先承認預防保健服務已經做了快30年主要是針對40歲到65歲以上的國人每3年做一次65歲以上再做一次更全面的檢查"},{"start":33008.024,"end":33029.705,"text":"但根據近10年健檢利用率顯示,其實免費健檢門檻下降到30歲的這份禮物,看似很美,其實效益不大。尤其每一年近10億元的支出,利用率卻連續三年未超過三成,實在很難看出來政府做了何種改變。"},{"start":33033.222,"end":33052.916,"text":"這樣可以理解嗎?他的利用率很低欸而且六都喔比如說台北市他的利用率是不到20%你們想得出來原因在哪裡嗎?我覺得這個美意是非常好但是他的利用率這麼低部長知道為什麼嗎?原因相當的多請委員先指教"},{"start":33061.713,"end":33089.819,"text":"我們來播...院長,勞動部要求企業雇用勞工時應做勞工體檢。另外勞工在職期間還需要做一般健檢。這某種程度上其實就是重複了。本席認為為了避免浪費行政資源,行政上不要跌床架屋,更不要增加血汗健保體制的負擔。政府是否應考慮更周全做法?"},{"start":33092.024,"end":33118.03,"text":"報告委員我覺得預防是一個有效的提早治療的方式之一甚至可以減少健保的支出那麼勞工朋友或是在公司裡面的同仁有這個體檢的福利是受到很多人歡迎的但您說的重複應該是在進到一個工職場的第一年或是才會比較可能發生吧"},{"start":33118.544,"end":33138.679,"text":"我先講一下為什麼因為這個六都都有跟我反映基層的醫師第一他的公司已經提供他幾乎跟你們提供的都一樣了所以呢他就會做公司的他不會來做政府運用的但是有一個很基本的前提你的數據就失真了"},{"start":33139.64,"end":33162.058,"text":"因為他如果沒有來做政府提供的你原利用率只有20所以你最後輸出的我們的慢性病流行病學就是那20%他可能沒有公司的體檢可能這個沒有自費去一些高階的機構做體檢所以這一群人他有代表全部台灣人的數據嗎不代表"},{"start":33163.459,"end":33182.568,"text":"接下來呢你可能會根據你調查到的這些慢性病的數據再去分配各縣市的健康投資嘛但是你連第一關的數據都不太對的時候你分配的資源一定又有偏差所以這件事情跌床架屋既然我們是AI內閣"},{"start":33184.491,"end":33201.983,"text":"議長也承諾說台灣未來要走向AI的導向我們就是要利用醫療數據大數據幫助我們施政可以更有效率嗎可是你看現在衛福部在做的事跟勞動部在做的事是重疊的是疊床架屋的報告委員依照"},{"start":33207.267,"end":33224.148,"text":"我個人的經驗,我在台大醫院工作那麼多年,那應該電腦的系統不至於說會把勞檢跟員工健檢或者是所謂的成人健檢的data去重複。"},{"start":33230.084,"end":33237.713,"text":"沒關係其實問題是這樣子我也幫大家解釋一下他如果去私人的機構不一定這些資料會串聯到我們的健保資料庫因為有隱私的問題"},{"start":33241.076,"end":33257.968,"text":"所以其實這個其實是因為卓院長現在在這邊所以我也希望卓院長可以看到部會之間的溝通協調問題如果有您來領導其實他們中間許許多多的醫護是做了重複的事情"},{"start":33259.169,"end":33273.225,"text":"對但是資料沒有串聯這個問題很大可是我們還是要去請教相關的法律專家未來有沒有機會把它串聯起來比如說私立機構或者是勞檢他願意配合的我們給他誘因"},{"start":33274.026,"end":33274.046,"text":"是。"},{"start":33296.841,"end":33321.294,"text":"報告委員首先我們珍惜醫療資源所以重複的檢查要避免我們才能夠在更緊縮的成本裡面來因應健保的所需要同時我們要更珍惜醫療的資訊所以能夠串聯起來我覺得我們到大醫院去他都會填一個是不是能夠在雲端看自己的這個所有檢查報告那如果能夠落實到非大醫院其他的"},{"start":33322.034,"end":33322.054,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":33334.388,"end":33351.349,"text":"保委員那個因為現在我們過去20年來也把醫療跟醫院跟基層做了很好的結合不管是在分級醫療或者是像一些社區醫療群其實基層醫療跟醫院的資訊是尤其是數據方面比較"},{"start":33353.251,"end":33364.094,"text":"好,我們會繼續追蹤這個接下來是要問許許多多癌癮我們關心的我覺得這個議題是吵滿久所以其實我們可以直接回答卓院長、邱部長有沒有這個支持把這個癌症新藥基金把它法制化呢?"},{"start":33381.004,"end":33400.309,"text":"我們現在在113年的新藥的預算已經有增加了那同時我們這個健保總額底下的暫時性支付預算專款也有24億兩個加起來將近接近50億接近50億那未來我們要朝向建立一個在籌措適當的裁員"},{"start":33402.629,"end":33402.81,"text":"主席"},{"start":33418.177,"end":33442.771,"text":"是,這邊是希望可以法治化永續的裁員,這個則是我們所有癌症病有最關心的。再來我也是直接用講的,因為時間不夠。這個新聞上個週末被轉載了,相信部長知道,有一位急診室醫生發出了悲歌,而且還是醫學中心的急診室醫師。當天護理排班排不出來,而且這個不是當天,這個其實是常態。"},{"start":33444.942,"end":33461.502,"text":"緊急調度其他單位還好其他單位有人力給調度過假使其他單位也很忙那就完蛋了因為那天他們用美國十分之一的人力美國三分之一的薪水創造了臨死亡率有兩個40多歲的"},{"start":33463.544,"end":33463.744,"text":"剛剛部長有說什麼?"},{"start":33489.301,"end":33514.21,"text":"我想集中症的醫護人力是我們非常最近非常重視的問題而且這是關鍵中的關鍵那在過去我們政府也有提出要研討繁重津貼這個部分那在繁重的津貼裡面最近的一個討論發現說大家都覺得自己很繁重"},{"start":33515.775,"end":33533.985,"text":"所以我們就會,所以這個會在研議,然後其他的一個中長期的一個負病比的獎勵或其他的環境的改善,我們申請了一年大概有40億,大概4年會有100多億來補助。好謝謝,因為我們明天還要繼續寫商界寶法。"},{"start":33535.806,"end":33537.588,"text":"接下來我剩下最後一點點時間希望幫我們高雄左營爭取"},{"start":33557.635,"end":33578.121,"text":"請卓院長、教育部政部長、國發會劉主委、工程會陳主委、主計總處陳主計長可以一同列席。那我跟高雄所有的年輕人聽到清大陽明交代要讓我們高雄都非常的開心。那本席之道我們預計是要設的是分部沒錯吧?是謝謝"},{"start":33588.974,"end":33603.996,"text":"謝謝在這邊其實有個重點要強調不管是未來呢在教育部的溝通還有在行政院工程委員會還有在國發會其實這是一個很大的project可是他是為了我們高雄的子弟"},{"start":33604.377,"end":33630.725,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":33630.885,"end":33646.23,"text":"在陳靜雯院長卸任前一周前已經批准了第二預備金後續也需要我們的行政院來協助在高雄的各項建設協助他們工程費用算清楚可不可以請各位官員在這邊盡力協助"},{"start":33662.17,"end":33683.728,"text":"謝謝陳金威委員的發言,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。謝謝。報告委員會本會期對新任行政院院長排定的政黨質詢的委員均已質詢完畢。我們謝謝卓院長、各部會首長列席答詢。現做以下決定。下次會議進行立法委員個人質詢、內政組織質詢。謝謝大家。我們現在來散會。"}]}},{"id":"154069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529af1faeec4761e8bbe84a337f76c37b5ea57f55736a2b3a8b2bc6c4c7a69cbef245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:02:03 - 09:32:36","影片長度":"00:30:33","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T09:02:03+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T09:32:36+08:00","duration":1833,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":31,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時2分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長好。院長謝謝你，第一個，建設不分藍綠，所以本席也要謝謝中央在今年年初核定了我們臺中捷運藍線的綜合規劃；除了藍線之外，現在橘線的可行性研究也在審議中，過去的經驗也顯示，越晚開工，整體的經費就越貴，所以橘線也要請院長和部長不僅要多多支持，更要儘速核定我們的捷運橘線。","另外，我們的捷運藍線，上個月臺中市政府也已經將藍線的基本設計審議送到交通部，呈報給交通部審查，這部分也要請交通部跟工程會多多協助，希望可以儘速審查通過。當然，這幾年的物價飛漲也影響到整個工程物料上漲，所以未來除了工程物料的經費要核實調整之外，也要請行政院在經費方面多多給予補助，希望臺中很期待的軌道建設、尤其是藍線捷運可以儘速動工。","此外，因應中科二期的擴建，台積電的設廠將帶來地方的交通衝擊，從日本熊本的案例可以看到台積電入駐擴廠之後，其實周邊的交通衝擊是很大的，所以本席一直在爭取漢翔路延伸，從環中路延伸到東大路，也就是西屯區計畫替代道路40M之4的興建工程跟福林路的開闢工程，感謝國土署在今年的4月中核定通過，但我覺得接下來才是挑戰的開始，因為這幾項工程都會遇到缺工跟用地費過高的這兩個問題，缺工就容易造成工程延宕，廠商也會因為工程延宕被罰錢，現在也有許多公共工程都沒有人願意來投標，恐怕未來會慢慢產生惡性循環。","而漢翔路從環中路延伸到東大路的部分，因為會穿越國道一號，所以高工局為配合現在5米跟6米的涵洞，希望拓寬到40米。現在高工局也剛完成可行性評估發包，這個40M之4的工程跟高工局涵洞工程是連動的，為了避免施工日期分散造成民眾的不便，本席也希望我們高公局跟我們臺中市政府建設局及相關單位能互相配合，讓我們的工程能夠順利進行，然後也讓工期可以縮短，所以就這幾個部分，要先拜託一下我們的院長跟我們的部長們。","再來另外一個就是用地費的問題，本席剛剛提到40M之4西屯路替代道路計畫的部分，總工程經費大概是73億8,400萬，光是用地費的部分就快要40億了，超過整體經費一半以上，但是按照目前我們國土署生活圈計畫，只補助了用地費的3.5億，所以臺中市政府光是用地費自籌的部分，就要高達36億3,400萬。另外，在福林路延伸的部分，用地費是19.78億，扣除補助的用地費3.5億後，其實這兩個加起來的缺口，地方的財政負擔光是用地費的部分就高達52.62億。所以我想要講的事情是，這兩個很重要的交通工程，是配合中央政府的國家發展，而這個費用也是有點高，卻讓地方政府負擔很高的用地費，我想這對地方政府來講是一個龐大的支出。並且這兩案也都是為了配合我們國家發展的政策，包括中科二期的建設跟我們的台積電的擴廠，所以本席之前也有請國科會想辦法，看看可不可以配合協助，從中找到更多的經費來協助，但是國科會卻兩手一攤表示無能為力。","所以剛剛提的這兩項工程、這幾個案子的用地費，我在這裡想要拜託我們的院長跟部長們，是不是可以分別跨部會想辦法找到經費專案給予補助呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，也感謝委員的理解。中央跟地方的關係就是這樣子，地方有需要，我們在均衡臺灣、衡平在地希望的理念之下，會朝互利的方向去做更多的努力。剛剛提到的這兩項，一項是內政部的生活圈道路建設，另一項是交通部的，這兩個部會都有補助地方相關經費的一些補助程序跟中央地方應該負擔的比例原則，這個都應該在我們過去的體制跟法規當中，所以也請委員能夠詳細的跟部會去做瞭解，我今天是不是請交通部先向委員報告呢？"],["廖委員偉翔：不好意思！院長，我知道，這些事情就是經我瞭解過後，剛剛才把這些數字講出來，就是目前中央補助的部分……"],["卓院長榮泰：就現在的狀況來跟委員報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在有新的補助的狀況嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：剛剛委員提到包括藍線的部分，那個已經核定了，現在則是還要針對臺灣大道在沙鹿那邊的陸橋形式等等，這已經有報到院裡，我們會儘速來把它的原則做一個敲定、確定。未來還有包括基本設計會送到交通部轉工程會來審議，我們也會儘速讓這個工程可以順利地發包、施工。","另外，剛剛提到漢翔路要穿越國道的部分，高公局已經在做評估，未來相關涵洞的加大等等，高公局會全力來協助，讓這個工程可以順利進行。至於用地費的部分，目前大概就是國土署就生活圈道路有一定的補助原則。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長，我先在這裡打斷，因為我大概都知道你們現在講的狀況，所以我今天的主要訴求，當然就是剛剛提的捷運能儘速核定或是儘速動工。另外就是我剛剛所提的漢翔路，這個部分真的對地方的財政負擔過大，還是希望院長可不可以想辦法找到專案補助的方式，因為畢竟它是配合台積電1.4奈米廠先進製程的進駐，有助於我們國家的競爭力，相關的用水用電其實臺中市政府也是全力在協助，而且之前行政院也有專案補助的案例，所以這部分想要特別拜託我們的卓院長，可以再想辦法來幫我們多補助一些，不然這用地費真的是太高了。","最後一個就是我們都市新興快速成長區的學生就學問題，本席選區中的南屯區溪西地區，因為人口快速成長，所以我們規劃了一個文中52，也就是文山國中的部分，上個禮拜五也已經動工了，可是過去在111年的時候，其實地方政府有報教育部爭取補助，反正種種原因後來是沒有獲得補助，所以第一期的工程由臺中市政府全權負擔、自籌，但是未來會有第二期的校舍與運動場的設置需要，因此這部分可否請院長和教育部給我們協助，依照新興人口成長區公立高級中學以下學校宿舍興建工程計畫的補助比率來補助一半經費？就這部分我也要跟您報告，雖然現在案子可能還沒送到教育部，但我想要提前為我們地方學子和地方家長們發聲，因為他們有在講這件事情，希望中央可以幫忙補助。"],["卓院長榮泰：教育部所辦的新興人口成長區公立高中以下學校校舍的新建或增建計畫，對臺中已經有相當補助，據我瞭解，已經有4所學校受到補助，至於委員所提到的這部分、這個個案，我再請教育部來說明。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心新興人口區域的學生與校舍的連動關係。剛才院長也特別提到，我們補助臺中4所新興學校校舍，總共核定12億2,000多萬，補助了6億1,000多萬，新建的教室大概有218間……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，沒關係……"],["鄭部長英耀：至於新人口裡，由於我們整個計畫大概到114年結束，未來如果臺中還有新的需要，我想從年度預算或一般補助，屆時國教署也會給予協助。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，希望我們送上案子時，也請教育部多多協助和幫忙，好不好？","再來，院長，還有經濟部郭部長，這也是我們地方很重要的建設，就是高壓電塔地下化，這也是形塑城市意象跟城市景觀非常重要的一塊。但更重要的是，許多國人對於高壓電塔的電磁波抱有很嚴重的健康疑慮！這個發展區域在剛剛講的文山國中那邊，那裡有8支高壓電塔，距離社區和學校都非常近。雖然高壓電塔地下化是一個大工程，但過去也有成功的例子，包含臺中大里、新北蘆洲或桃園平鎮區都有，尤其台電也說技術上是沒有問題的，唯一的問題就是要8億經費，這8支加起來大約要8億經費。","目前台電的要求是跟地方政府各出一半，這對地方政府的負擔來講一樣非常沉重，導致工程……我們地方上已經講了非常久。尤其現在那邊的建築越蓋越近，住戶非常多，所以我在這邊要拜託院長，是不是可以責請經濟部跟台電就經費的部分再研議呢？","我有看到台電在2022年提出5,645億的十年電網強韌計畫，就是希望就地發電、就近使用，杜絕大規模停電的再發生。有關高壓電塔地下化，尤其是在人口稠密的地方，我想地下化也有助於解決不管是小動物或其他外力所導致的停電狀況，所以也想請院長和部長，是不是可以考慮把南屯高壓電塔地下化期程和工程放進電網強韌計畫中，讓工程可以早日實施，還給我們鄉親和地方一個乾淨的天空，並降低民眾對於健康的疑慮？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。台電始終將電網韌性的強化當作未來重要的工作，所以預計未來10年編了五千多億，而這個一定會持續落實下去，因為只有這樣做，才不會到處跳電，甚至變成家裡沒電，所以強韌電網的工作一定要做到，只是這一定要分區域、分階段來進行。至於南屯區嶺東高壓電塔目前有沒有納入第一期或未來期程的計畫裡，我請部長來說明一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，南屯高壓電塔本來沒有納入台電公司的強化電網計畫，也沒有在預算裡，但之前委員有提出來，所以台電公司就跟臺中市政府研商，因為一定要由臺中市政府或當地使用戶提出需求，所以我們現在有在談，也還在繼續談費用的分布。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長，我們希望這個部分要再請院長跟部長多多幫忙協助，看看可不可以納入強韌電網計畫，這對地方上的人民來講是非常重要的一件事情，在這裡再次拜託。","再來，我要講的是，為了落實我們社宅可負擔的精神，2021年住宅法修法，社宅的租金由地方自訂改為中央主管機關應斟酌承租者所得狀況、負擔能力及市場行情，訂定分級收費原則，由主管機關訂定之。這個修法至今已經兩年了，內政部作為中央主管機關卻沒有訂定，為什麼呢？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心。我想社宅的租金未來我們在訂定的時候不是所謂的一市兩制，而是要依據譬如委員所在的地方是臺中市，按照臺中市目前在房屋租金市場上的比例原則來做處理，譬如說對於社會弱勢或經濟弱勢，我們就以低收入戶或中低收入戶一般行情的3折到5折來做計價，所以未來國土署會訂定的部分就是以它的上限為訂定標準，如果直轄市或其他縣市政府有社宅的部分願意往下調降的話，我們尊重，因為大部分的租金有一部分會來自於縣市政府的補貼。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，我跟您說一下，目前現實的狀況是這樣，在臺北市、新北市、桃園都是採用依所得設定分級租金，但你剛剛說的有點像是身分，中央的部分就是依身分別市場租金打折，臺中市的部分其實是用身分別內含所得別的混成。目前北、北、桃的社宅最多，可是未來各都都會有中央興建的社宅完工，到時候就會發生一國多制或是一市兩制的現象，也就是說，地方社宅跟中央社宅可能在旁邊，可是大家的標準不同。我提出這個問題並不是要跟你討論你到底打了多少折，而是這個問題會導致民眾混亂，他們不知道哪個是地方政府蓋的、哪個是中央政府蓋的，它到底用什麼條件呢？所以我要說的是這個部分是不是應該建立一個統一的制度，來協調中央和地方？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，我想你講的沒有錯，因為每個地方、縣市的租金在市場上的行情都不一樣，包括同一個市政府或同一個市裡面也有所謂蛋黃區或蛋白區的差異……"],["廖委員偉翔：抱歉，部長，您……"],["劉部長世芳：您先聽我講，您現在講的是身分別跟所得別嘛！"],["廖委員偉翔：對、對、對。"],["劉部長世芳：所得也不一樣，所以我們會跟地方政府做溝通，我們是尊重地方政府所提的部分，像你講的沒有錯，有中央蓋的社宅，也有中央跟地方一起合作的社宅，但我們以後會訂定所謂的天花板價，讓他來做處理，我想這樣對於要追求居住正義的年輕人來講，比較好有個追尋的目標，而不是現在就訂一個死的價錢在那個地方……"],["廖委員偉翔：這不是，跟價錢沒有關係啦！部長……"],["劉部長世芳：反而影響到租屋市場上的混亂。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我剛剛講的就是說，其實你們自己內政部在112年10月6號、113年2月21號及4月23號都有召開研商會議，中央的草案也就是希望綜合所得與身分進行收費，我要講的就是這個，你一直扯到收費去，我覺得應該是要儘速擬定這個部分，把全國的制度整合起來。如果你們想要避免所謂假窮人的問題，我覺得應該借鑑社福體系乃至於其他住宅補貼的作法，配套檢討現行的收入檢核制度，我講的主要是這個，希望行政院可以積極研擬跟地方溝通、協調，才能避免已經快要發生導致社宅租金一國多制或是一市兩制的問題，好不好？我剛剛講的是這些。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員的指教。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，也是跟居住正義有關的部分，中央在4月份調漲電價，電價漲幅調漲3到5%，約有1,250萬戶受影響。我們收到很多陳情，有部分房東藉機調漲房租和電價，租客也抱怨房東收取電費本來就已經不是按照台電的費率收費，已經被扒了一層皮，現在又通知甚至要從每度5元調漲到6元，這個漲幅高達20%，也讓人覺得政府給了房東新理由再扒第二層皮，台電的虧損卻是基層的租屋族要負擔。前內政部長林右昌在4月24號也有表示，已經預告要修正租屋定型化契約，明定每度電價不得超過當期電費單的每度平均電價，房東每期收取的電費總額也不可超過電費單的總額，他那時候說5月上路應該沒問題，請問院長，現在已經6月18號了，你們預告的修正草案進度為何？上路了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復。"],["劉部長世芳：我來回答一下，好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["劉部長世芳：我想林右昌部長上次回應我們立法院的確實沒有錯，我們在5月14號已經完成修正草案的預告，現在我們將修正草案送到行政院來核定，最主要是行政院要由消保會來做一個通盤的考慮跟審議之後，經過核定，再由我們內政部來公告施行。也就是說，剛剛委員所關心的電價漲，然後房東也調漲……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是部長當初有答應……"],["劉部長世芳：這是跟消費者權益有關的……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你們當初有說5月要上路，但是到現在就是還沒上路嘛，對不對？所以我是覺得……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，對不起，它的行政程序是需要做預告，草案要預告，然後才做審議，再回來我們公告施行。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你是在打臉當初的部長亂開芭樂票嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想我們是按照行政程序來處理，報告委員。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我要講的是，這是基層的心聲，希望你們不要漲電價之後還棄租屋族於不顧，真的希望你能告訴我，你們什麼時候可以完成上路？"],["劉部長世芳：我們有照顧，所以才需要修正這個公告，5月16號已經送到行政院，要進行消保會的核定。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問部長，您可以告訴我什麼時候會實施、會上路嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們已經送到行政院，要由消保會開會來決定。"],["廖委員偉翔：你要告訴我時間嘛，你們不就是行政院嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘快來幫忙處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：你可不可以給我押一個日期？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，程序是一直在進行的，消保會會安排在6月底的會議中來做討論，我們會儘速讓它……"],["廖委員偉翔：你可不可以說7月可以上路？"],["卓院長榮泰：這要看他們討論的結果，是不是沒有其他問題……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以有可能一再延宕嗎？有可能一再延宕嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望能夠儘快按照過去部長跟各位委員的承諾、跟國人的承諾這樣進行下去，所以6月底的開會……"],["廖委員偉翔：請院長承諾我們，會用你最快的速度讓這個上路。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們儘速加速審查。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後我們希望可以在7月，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起努力加油，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。院長，去年選前財政部也端出新青安貸款的政策牛肉，提高貸款額度到1,000萬，貸款年限也延長到40年，寬限期延長到5年，你認為這是符合居住正義的政策嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個政策原來的美意是相當好，幫助年輕人能夠在比較低利率的情況底下取得房子，滿足居住正義的問題……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我想……"],["卓院長榮泰：但執行下來，外界有很多的聲音，我們都聽到了，我在這兩周也分別接收到很多訊息，詢問了很多部會，我們會在下禮拜正式召開一次會議，就外界質疑的執行過程，以及執行到現在的影響跟未來可能的發展，我們來做全面的檢討。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，這聽起來是這樣子沒有錯，但是我要告訴你的是，美意的確有，但從結果來看，它就是一個頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳的問題。原本公股銀行對利息減收半碼，然後新青安繼續減收，再加上額外的加碼補貼，甚至狂勝俗稱房貸地板價的公教房貸；但是結果，我要講的就是結果，結果造成今年第一季全臺建物買賣移轉棟數到了8.1萬棟，是近13年來次高的紀錄。而且依央行公布今年第一季五大銀行新承作購屋貸款累計2,382億，是歷年同季新高，尤其新青安占比達39%，讓整個房市更加熱絡，七都第一季的房價年增高達一成，創下新高。我就說這個結果看起來是沒有符合居住正義的，所以到底是居住正義還是炒房？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請教院長，現在有很多年輕人去買，也衍生一些包租公、人頭戶的亂象，接下來還有境外資金回臺專法的問題，該法在2019年8月15號上路，規定5年內不得投資不動產，但今年8月將陸續屆滿，根據你們的說法是每年四百多億，我想這個跟上面是同一題，看起來又要帶動房價的漲幅，請問你們有打算要怎麼抑制房價嗎？還是說房價過去是經濟火車頭，你們現在要讓它變成經濟火箭頭，一飛衝天？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該也同意，房價的漲跌絕對不是單一的因素，不是單一的因素……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我只想問院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：今天拿出來討論，我們針對它，你剛剛說的還有其他，政府會善用這些政策工具，好好來對市場做全面的檢查。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，因為我想要關心的是現在青年都很關注的居住正義的議題，這也是過去8年來，我想民調都看得出來，最讓人家詬病的地方，所以我想要問院長，能不能給出保證，今年六都房價的漲幅不會超過基本薪資漲幅的4.05%呢？還是不敢保證？"],["卓院長榮泰：各個地區、包括六都還有各縣市的狀況不同，如果因為有新的公共建設的發展，或是有新的工業廠區而造成房價上漲，一方面是自然，一方面是因為這樣的群聚的聚落……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，對，我想要問這些就是，我們先聚焦在這個部分，我們想要問，對於房價的部分，你有沒有辦法給出承諾，或是有沒有更積極的作為，告訴我們購屋族或是真正需要居住正義的這些人，可不可以保證說不要再漲超過我們的基本薪資的漲幅？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在只能從另一個方向，就是提供更多的社宅，包括興建，包括包租代管，包括補貼租金、利息，這樣來處理，希望能夠滿足大家一般的需求。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，居住正義包含社宅，包含租屋市場，包含購屋市場。社宅我們剛剛前面有討論，但是我現在跟你講的就是購屋市場，也是他們最關心的一環嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你總不可能要他一輩子……本來你們做社宅的美意，也不是說讓他一輩子住社宅嘛，對不對？所以我會說這個購屋市場的問題你沒有想辦法解決的話，居住正義永遠只是口號。所以我想要告訴院長的是，請你可以跨部會趕快把這件事情當成重中之重，然後也為我們國人做一個保證。"],["卓院長榮泰：有的，這個內政部已經在研擬比較新的方式，讓居住者可以長期穩定地擁有，在一個地方能夠安心住下來，這樣的政策內政部已經提出了，我們正在更精進其內容，希望有一天能夠儘早跟社會來討論、甚至公布。"],["廖委員偉翔：是。再來，根據警政署最新的2024年6月6號的統計顯示，112年的詐欺案件發生三萬七千多件，比起上一年度漲了將近三成，其中「投資詐欺」較上年度增加5,233件最多，漲幅快八成；金額的部分，過去4年以來逐漸增加，從42億、56億、69億，到去年突破新高驚人的88億，顯然不管是詐騙件數或者是金額，雙雙都創下新高。院長對於這樣的成果還滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不滿意。詐騙集團的手法一直翻新，利用的工具一直更新，而行為態樣也一直在多樣化，所以我們一定要讓執法人員手中握有利器，因此我幾次拜訪韓院長跟大院委員，也希望大家能夠儘速將打詐四法通過，通過之後我們嚴厲地來執行，對於這些令人深惡痛絕的詐騙集團，我們嚴厲地加以打擊。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒錯，還好你說不滿意，但是之前行政院發表的新聞稿卻駁斥打詐沒有成果，並強調打詐經費都是花在刀口上，沒有打水漂，所以我覺得這個是不是跟院長的態度有點不同？而且……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，對於我們第一線打詐同仁的工作辛勞，我非常瞭解，但是這種數字，就是因為整個社會變遷，國內環境的結果，造成這種狀況，我非常不滿意。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，院長，我告訴你，你們的新聞稿裡面是引用全球防詐聯盟GASA的數據，全球平均詐騙損失金額前3名的是新加坡、瑞士跟奧地利，臺灣在43個國家裡面排名第23名，所以我才特別拿這個新聞稿來問院長，新聞稿裡面的駁斥是要告訴大家我們其實還不錯，被騙的不多嗎？但是，院長，你知道嗎，這個GASA的數據裡面也有統計，59%臺灣的受訪者每週至少接觸到1次詐騙，排名第3，僅有6%的民眾表示很少或是未接觸過詐騙；而且損失追回的比例上，臺灣僅13%，遠遠低於日本和新加坡的28%跟25%；最誇張的是裡面也講到，估計被詐騙金額的黑數是2,000億臺幣，只是我們2023年官方統計的零頭。院長覺得這個有改善的空間嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有，我堅信不是越打越多，是我們不打更多，所以一定要嚴打，讓它降下去。所以，拜託大院趕快通過修法，讓我們手中真的握有利器，那我一定要求嚴格地執行。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在其實對於這個越打越詐的結果，看起來這個形容詞其實真的還是比新冠病毒出現得更早，不過我們對於院長還是有一些新的期許。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：在這裡希望院長可以更精進我們的打詐跟打擊的力道，不過這邊我恐怕還是要讓院長稍微漏氣一下，我覺得很難做到，有一個原因就是你們的打詐國家隊在根本上出現很大的問題，如果不能解決，我想也會是一個空談。請教院長，打詐國家隊最重要的組成單位是哪幾個？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們內政部有打詐中心，數發部也有，法務部也有，當然他們有檢調單位，另外是金管會對金融機關，還有NCC當然也是一個關鍵。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，就是剛剛講的金管會、數發部、NCC、法務部還有內政部警政署這些單位，以上幾大部會涵蓋了大部分民眾在遇到詐騙時會需要提供協助的機關，但是我們發現其中有很多極大的問題，我們看似有堅實的防線，其實居然有一大票的害群之馬在勾結詐騙集團，甘願成為詐騙集團的手下，而且還以打入詐騙集團並有業務合作為榮，把名字遮起來看，讓人還以為是想要加入黃仁勳的AI團隊。所以我們看看，其實還有以下一堆的詐騙集團勾結律師、檢察官、法官、警察、銀行行員、NCC委員、廣告公司，我想這哪裡是打詐國家隊，根本是詐騙國家隊！從事這些職業的人都是我們國家的精英公務員，但是裡面卻有出現害群之馬的現象，我想這些害群之馬就會導致人民沒有辦法信任，你們要怎麼說服人民相信政府沒有內鬼、可以認真地打詐？"],["卓院長榮泰：任何團體裡面有害群之馬都是讓團體最傷腦筋的，我想內閣團隊會嚴加管理跟要求，督促我們的首長對屬下的各種生活還有公職機關作息時間應該要好好地瞭解，讓他們能夠在公務時間當中單純地以處理公務為主。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝院長，希望你可以秉持勿枉勿縱的精神，全力找出害群之馬。再來，因為這個事件讓我們想到在過去打假球很盛行的時候，其實真的有好的球員到最後才發現原來身邊的隊友、總教練有問題，到最後他要向球隊的老闆報告，卻發現他們全部都是打假球的一環，都被收買了，只有他自己乖乖打球。所以關於這個部分我要提醒院長，請你們勿枉勿縱，一定要好好展現你們的決心，為國人打詐。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我會要求我們的成員一起努力、加油，大家生活單純一點。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林委員楚茵質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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行性研究也在審議中那過去的經驗也顯示越晚開工整體的經費就越貴所以那個局線的部分呢也要請院長和部長不僅要多多支持也要跟要盡速的核定我們的捷運局線那在我們的另外捷運藍線的部分呢上個月台中市政府也已經將這個藍線的基本設計審議送到我們交通部那"},{"start":55.424,"end":81.842,"text":"澄報給交通部審查這部分也要請我們交通部跟工程會多多協助希望可以儘速審查通過那當然這幾年的物價漲、飛漲也影響到整個工程的物料上漲所以未來除了這個工物料的經費要何時調整之外也要請行政院在經費方面多多給予補助希望我們臺中很期待的這個軌道建設尤其是我們藍線捷運可以儘速的動工那麼另外"},{"start":82.694,"end":101.581,"text":"也要跟這個因應中科二期的部分呢中科二期擴建這個跟台積電的設廠將帶來地方的交通衝擊其實在這個日本的案例熊本那邊的案例也可以看到這個台積電入住之後擴廠之後"},{"start":102.882,"end":130.636,"text":"這個其實周邊的交通衝擊是很大的所以本席也一直爭取這個漢祥路延伸到這個從環中路延伸到東大路也就是西屯計畫替代道路的40米之四的部分的新建工程跟福林路的開闢工程感謝國土署也在今年的4月中合併通過但是我覺得接下來才是挑戰的開始因為這幾項工程都會遇到問題就是缺工跟用地費過高的這兩個問題那我想缺工就會造成"},{"start":131.178,"end":133.08,"text":"所以高工局也配合現在的這個5米跟6米的寒凍希望配合拓寬到40米"},{"start":157.41,"end":185.294,"text":"現在高工局也剛完成這個可行性評估發包那在這個40米之四的工程跟高工局寒凍工程是連動的所以為了避免施工日期的這個分散造成民眾不便本席也希望邀請我們高工局跟我們台中市政府的建設局跟相關的單位互相配合以讓我們的工程能夠順利然後也讓工期可以縮短所以這幾個部分要先拜託一下我們的院長跟我們的部長們"},{"start":187.53,"end":210.716,"text":"再來另外一個問題就是剛剛用地費的問題所以本席剛剛提到40米之四這個西屯路計畫替代道路的部分這總工程經費大概是73億8400萬那光是用地費的部分就快要40億了超過整體經費一半以上但是目前按照我們國土署的生活圈的計畫"},{"start":211.876,"end":237.826,"text":"只補助了用地費的3.5億所以臺中市政府光這用地費的自籌的部分他就要高達36億3400萬那另外在福林路延伸的部分呢還就是中央這個用地費是19.78億那當然也扣除各部這個各補助的用地費的3.5億其實這兩個加起來的缺口對地方來講的財政負擔光這個用地費的部分就高達52.62億"},{"start":240.02,"end":263.862,"text":"所以我想要講的事情是這個部分這兩個很重要的交通工程是配合中央政府的國家發展那這個費用也是有點高卻讓地方政府負擔很高的這個用地的費用我想這對地方政府來講是一個龐大的支出並且這兩岸也都是為了配合我們國家發展的政策所以這個中科二期的建設跟我們的台積電的擴廠"},{"start":265.765,"end":287.89,"text":"本席之前也有請國科會想辦法看可不可以配合協助從中找到更多的經費來協助但是國科會卻兩手一談表達說無能為力所以剛剛提到的這兩項工程這幾案的用地費我在想在這裡想要拜託我們的院長跟部長們是不是可以分別跨部會想辦法找到經費來專案給予補助呢?"},{"start":292.105,"end":315.334,"text":"謝謝委員也感謝委員的理解中央跟地方的關係就是這樣子地方有需要我們在均衡臺灣橫平在地希望的這個理念之下我們會朝互利的方向去做更多的努力那剛剛提到這兩項一項是內政部的這個生活圈道路建設那一項是交通部的"},{"start":317.137,"end":337.425,"text":"這兩個部會他都有跟地方補助地方相關經費的一些補助的程序跟中央地方應該這個負擔的比例原則那這個都應該在我們過去的體制當中跟法規裡面所以也請委員能夠詳細的跟部會去做了解那我今天是不是請交通部先聊先讓委員報告"},{"start":338.225,"end":363.157,"text":"不好意思院長我知道這些就是我都了解過後我才剛剛把這些數字講出來目前中央補助的部分那現在的狀況跟對現在有新的補助的狀況嗎?剛剛委員提到的包括藍線的部分那那個已經核定那現在就是他還要針對台灣大道在沙路那邊那個路橋的形式已經有報到院那我們會儘速來把他這個原則做一個敲定確定"},{"start":364.378,"end":364.478,"text":"﹚廖偉翔﹚"},{"start":394.819,"end":404.753,"text":"的部分的他的生活圈道路有一定的這個補助的原則。好謝謝部長我先在這裡打斷了因為我大概都知道你們現在講的狀況那所以我今天的主要訴求"},{"start":405.387,"end":434.718,"text":"就是當然這個剛剛的捷運競速的核定或是競速動工那另外就是我剛剛說的漢祥路這個部分真的對地方的財政負擔過大這部分還是希望院長看可不可以想辦法找到專案補助的方式因為畢竟他是配合主要台積電這1.4奈米廠的先進製程的進駐對於我們國家競爭力而且相關的用水用電其實台中市政府也是全力在協助所以這個部分之前行政院有專案補助的案例這個部分想要在特別的"},{"start":435.117,"end":457.143,"text":"拜託我們的卓院長可以再想辦法來幫我們多補助一些,不然這個用地費真的太高了。那最後再來就是一個我們都市新興快速的這個成長區的學生就學的問題。那在本席的這個選區中南屯區的西西地區因為人口快速成長,所以我們有規劃了一個文中五二也就是文三國中。"},{"start":457.611,"end":482.326,"text":"那上個禮拜五也已經動工了可是過去在111年的時候其實地方政府有報教育部爭取補助反正種種原因後來是沒有獲得補助所以第一期的工程是由台中市政府全權的負擔自籌但是呢未來也有第二期的這個校舍跟運動場的設置的需要所以這部分也要請院長看是不是可以請我們教育部協助依照這個新興人口成長區的"},{"start":483.635,"end":505.291,"text":"公立高級中學學校以下的學校宿舍新建工程計劃的補助比率來補助一半的經費這樣那這個部分我也要跟您報告雖然說現在可能還沒有到送到我們教育部可是我也是想要提前為我們地方的學子和地方的家長們發聲因為他們已經都在講這件事情希望我們可以中央可以幫忙補助"},{"start":506.109,"end":532.799,"text":"教育部所辦理的這個新興人口成長區公立高中以下學校校舍的新建或增建的計畫對台中已經有相當補助據我所知道了解已經有四所學校已經接受到補助那至於委員所提到的這個部分這個個案再請教育部來說明對謝謝委員的關心這個新興人口的一個區域的一個學生跟校舍的一個聯動關係"},{"start":534.359,"end":554.154,"text":"目前已經這個,剛剛院長也特別提到我們補助這個臺中這四所新興的一個學校校舍總共有補助了合定的12億2000多萬那補助了6億1000多萬然後這個總共有新建的教室大概有218間"},{"start":555.555,"end":555.935,"text":"好,部長沒關係。"},{"start":581.952,"end":609.355,"text":"院長還有我們的經濟部國部長這個地方也是我們地方很重要的建設就是高壓電塔地下化也是形塑我們城市的這個意向跟城市景觀非常重要的一塊但是更重要的是也有許多國人對於高壓電塔的電磁波有很嚴重的健康的疑慮那在我們這個發展區域也在剛剛文山國中那邊其實那裡有8支高壓電塔那它距離社區和距離學校都非常的近"},{"start":610.275,"end":623.442,"text":"雖然這個高壓電塔地下化是一個大工程可是其實過去都有成功的部分包含台中的大里、新北蘆洲或是桃園憑證區都有那尤其是現在其實台電也說這個技術上是沒有問題那現在唯一的問題就是經費"},{"start":624.278,"end":624.858,"text":"拜託你是不是也可以"},{"start":648.304,"end":659.032,"text":"則請我們的經濟部跟臺電就經費的部分再研議呢?因為我也有看到臺電在2022年有提出一個5645億的10年電網強韌計畫就是希望這個就地發電就近使用然後杜絕大規模的這個停電再發生"},{"start":666.946,"end":696.304,"text":"所以我想這個高壓電塔這個地下化尤其是在這個人口很稠密的地方我想它其實地下化也有助於這個剛剛所謂的不管是小動物或是一些其他外力導致的停電所以也想要請院長和部長是不是可以把我們這個南屯高壓電塔地下化的這個騎乘和這個工程可不可以考慮把它放進我們電網強韌計畫中這樣這個工程可以早日的實施然後也還給我們鄉親我們地方一個乾淨的天空並且降低民眾對於健康的疑慮"},{"start":698.268,"end":726.09,"text":"好謝謝委員提到臺電始終將電網的韌性的強化當作未來重要的工作尤其未來10年變了5000多億那這個一定會持續的落實下去因為只有這樣做才不會到處跳電變成家裡沒電所以強韌電網的這個工作一定要做到但是這個一定要分區域分階段來進行好那至於說這個南屯區嶺東高壓電塔的這個"},{"start":728.427,"end":745.617,"text":"目前有沒有納入到整個第一期或是未來汽車的計畫裡面我請部長來說明一下報告委員這個南屯的這個高壓電塔就是本來沒有納入這個台電公司的強化電網的這樣的一個計畫也沒有在這個預算裡面"},{"start":747.898,"end":768.006,"text":"但是好像在這個之前委員有提出來嘛﹖所以我們臺電公司就有跟這個臺中市政府來研商因為這個提出來一定要臺中市政府或者是當地的這個使用戶提出來這個需求啦所以我們現在有在談這個還在繼續在談這個費用的分布"},{"start":771.127,"end":799.919,"text":"好,謝謝部長所以我們希望說這個部分要再請院長跟部長多多的幫忙協助看可不可以納入這個電網強韌電網計畫這對地方上的人民來講是非常重要的一件事情那在這裡再次拜託好,再來我要講的是這個來,就是為了落實我們這個社宅可負擔的精神其實2021年的社宅法我們的社宅的這個租金由地方"},{"start":800.413,"end":822.374,"text":"自定改為中央主管機關因斟酌成豬者的所得狀況負擔能力跟市場行情訂定分級收費的原則由主管機關訂定之。但是目前這個修法至今已經兩年了,那內政部作為這個中央主管機關卻沒有訂定,為什麼呢?"},{"start":825.996,"end":850.586,"text":"謝謝委員的關心。我想涉宅的租金,我們未來在訂定的時候不是所謂的一市兩制,而是說我們要依據,譬如說委員所在的地方是台中市,那按照台中市目前在房屋租金市場上面的這個比例原則來做處理。譬如說對於社會弱勢或經濟弱勢,我們就以低收入戶或是中低收入戶一般行情上面的三折到五折來做計價。"},{"start":851.406,"end":854.067,"text":"謝謝部長對,我跟您說一下因為目前現實的狀況是這樣在台北市、新北市、桃園他們都是採用這個依所得設定分級租金你剛剛說的有點像是身份"},{"start":879.392,"end":905.018,"text":"那中央的部分這是以身分別市場租金打折那台中市的部分呢他其實是用身分別然後內涵這個所得別的混成那目前呢這個北北桃的社宅當然最多可是未來呢各都都會有中央的新建的社宅完工到時候就會發生一件事情就是一國多制或是一市兩制也就是說我地方的社宅跟你中央的社宅可能在旁邊可是大家的標準不同喔"},{"start":905.558,"end":921.656,"text":"所以我想要提出這個問題不是要跟你討論說你到底答多少則而是這個問題就會導致民眾混亂他不知道哪一個究竟是地方政府蓋的哪一個中央蓋的那他到底用什麼條件呢所以我要講的事情是這個部分是不是應該統一一個制度來協調中央跟地方"},{"start":923.811,"end":938.126,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,我想您講的沒有錯,因為每個地方縣市的租金根本在市場上的行情都不一樣,包括在同一個市政府裡面或同一個市裡面也有所謂的蛋黃區或是蛋白區。您先講的是身分別跟所得別。"},{"start":941.65,"end":941.91,"text":"﹖廖偉翔﹖"},{"start":957.549,"end":966.761,"text":"我想這樣對於要追求居住正義的年輕人來講,比較好有一個追尋的目標,而不是現在就定一個死的這個價錢在那個地方,反而影響到租賃市場上的緣故。"},{"start":976.472,"end":998.099,"text":"中央草案也就是希望綜合所得跟身份進行這個收費那這個部分我要講的就是這個你一直扯到這個收費去我覺得這是應該是要盡速擬定這個部分要把全國的制度整合起來如果你們覺得說要為了避免所謂的假窮人的問題我覺得應該借鑒社福體系的乃至於到其他的住宅補貼的做法"},{"start":999.105,"end":1000.626,"text":"好,我們謝謝委員的指教再來也是跟居住正義有關的部分"},{"start":1020.147,"end":1041.38,"text":"這個中央在4月份的時候呢,調漲電價,那這個電價漲幅調漲大概3到5%嘛,約有1250萬戶受影響。那部分的房東,我們也收到很多的陳情,就是藉機調漲房租跟電價。那租客也抱怨,那房東收取電費本來就已經不是按照台電的費率收費,已經被扒一層皮。"},{"start":1042.16,"end":1066.611,"text":"現在通知甚至要從每度5元調漲到6元這個漲幅高達20%所以呢也讓人家覺得說這個政府給了房東新理由再扒第二層皮那台電的虧損卻是基層的租屋主要負擔那前內政部長林佑昌他在4月24號也有表示已經預告要修正租屋定型化契約明定每度的電價不得超過這個當期電費單的平均的電"},{"start":1069.962,"end":1070.162,"text":"﹚廖偉翔"},{"start":1088.423,"end":1116.322,"text":"我來回答一下好嗎?我想林佑昌部長在上次回應我們立法院確實沒有錯。我們在5月14日的時候已經完成修正草案的預告。現在我們將修正草案送到行政院來核定。最主要就是行政院他是要由消保會來做一個通盤的考慮跟審議之後,經過核定再由我們內政部來公告施行。也就是說剛剛委員所關心的就是說電價漲,然後房東也調漲。"},{"start":1117.803,"end":1122.288,"text":"這是跟消費者權益有關的。對不起,他的行政程序是需要有做預告,草案要預告,然後才做審議,然後再公告施行。"},{"start":1135.725,"end":1138.747,"text":"那請問部長,您可以告訴我什麼時候會實施會上路嗎?我們已經送到行政院,要消保費來開會做這個決定。我們盡快,我們盡快來幫忙處理。跟委員報告。"},{"start":1165.462,"end":1191.077,"text":"程序是一直在進行的,那消保會會安排在6月底的會議當中來做討論,那我們會盡速讓他...那你可不可以說7月可以是上路?看他討論的結果,是不是...所以有可能一再延宕嗎?有可能一再延宕嗎?我希望能夠盡快的按照過去部長所跟各位的委員的承諾,跟國人的承諾這樣進行下去。"},{"start":1191.577,"end":1216.73,"text":"那請院長承諾我們用你最快的速度讓這個上路,然後我們希望可以在7月好嗎?我們一起努力加油,謝謝。好,院長去年選前財政部也端出新清安的貸款的政策牛肉,那提高的貸款額度調到1000萬,那貸款的年限也延長到40年,那寬限期也延長到5年,你認為這是符合居住正義的政策嗎?"},{"start":1218.249,"end":1227.385,"text":"這個政策原來的美意是相當好幫助年輕人能夠在比較低的利率情況底下取得防止"},{"start":1228.353,"end":1229.854,"text":"部長這聽起來是這樣子沒有錯但是我要告訴你的是說美意的確"},{"start":1258.051,"end":1258.152,"text":"但是從結果來看"},{"start":1259.738,"end":1259.878,"text":"﹚廖偉翔﹚廖偉翔"},{"start":1290.638,"end":1313.71,"text":"購屋的貸款累計到2382億是歷年的同季新高尤其新青安也佔比到了39%其實讓整個房市更加熱絡那七都的這個第一季的房價年增高達一成創下新高我就說這個結果看起來是沒有符合居住正義的所以到底是居住正義還是炒房"},{"start":1314.727,"end":1332.699,"text":"我想要請教院長,現在有很多年輕人去買,那也衍生一些包租公、人頭戶的亂象。接下來還有這個境外資金回台的專法。2019年的8月15日上路,5年內不得投資這個不動產,但是今年8月要繼續"},{"start":1333.686,"end":1333.966,"text":"﹚廖偉翔﹚"},{"start":1348.482,"end":1369.206,"text":"過去是經濟火車頭,你們現在要讓他變經濟火箭頭,一飛沖天喔。委員也應該同意喔,房價的漲跌阿,他絕對不是單一的因素啦。不是單一的因素。好,那我只想問院長,你剛剛說的還有其他政府會善用這些政策工具,好好的來對市場做全面的檢查。"},{"start":1369.346,"end":1387.395,"text":"好,因為我想要關心的是現在大家青年都很關注居住正義的議題。這也是過去8年來我想民調都看得出來最讓人家詬病的地方。所以我想要問院長能不能給出保證今年六都的房價的漲幅不會超過基本薪資漲幅的4.05%呢?還是不敢保證?"},{"start":1390.051,"end":1416.941,"text":"這個各個地區各個六都還有各個縣市狀況不同他如果有新的公共建設的發展或是有新的這個工業的場區那造成的房價的上漲那一方面是自然一方面是因為這樣的群聚的聚落我想要問這些就是我們先聚焦在這個部分我們想要問說對於這個房價的這個部分你有沒有辦法給出承諾或是有沒有更積極的作為告訴我們"},{"start":1417.501,"end":1419.963,"text":"委員長居住正義包含社宅包含租屋市場包含購物市場"},{"start":1445.425,"end":1469.722,"text":"社宅我們剛剛前面討論但是我現在跟你講的就是購物市場也是他們最關心的一環嘛你總不可能要他一輩子本來你們做社宅的美意也不是說要他一輩子住社宅嘛對不對所以我是說這個購物市場你沒有想辦法解決的話那居住這一永遠只是口號所以我想要告訴院長的是請你可以就是跨部會趕快把這件事情當成重中之重然後也為我們國人做一個保證"},{"start":1470.424,"end":1470.444,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":1489.158,"end":1495.382,"text":"再來,根據警政署最新的2024年6月6日的統計顯示,112年的詐欺案件發生37000多件。比起上一年度,漲了將近三成,其中以投資詐欺也較上一年增加了5233件。"},{"start":1510.732,"end":1511.173,"text":"當然不滿意。"},{"start":1530.233,"end":1531.174,"text":"沒錯,還好你說不滿意喔。"},{"start":1557.657,"end":1564.608,"text":"但是之前行政院發表的新聞稿卻駁斥打炸沒有成果並強調打炸經費都是花在島口上沒有打水漂"},{"start":1566.092,"end":1586.981,"text":"所以我覺得這個是不是跟院長的態度有點不同?不是,我對我們打詐同仁第一線的工作的辛勞我非常的了解,但是這種數字就是因為我們整個社會變遷,國內環境的結果造成這種狀況,我非常不滿意。好,院長我告訴你你們用的新聞稿裡面是引用全球防詐聯盟GASA的數據喔。"},{"start":1588.306,"end":1612.719,"text":"全球平均詐騙損失金額前三名的是新加坡、瑞士跟奧地利。那台灣是在43個國家裡面第23名。所以我才特別拿這個新聞稿來問這個我們的院長。這個新聞稿的駁斥是要告訴大家說我們其實還不錯,被騙的不多嗎?但是院長你知道嗎?這個GASA的數據裡面也有統計59%的台灣人受訪者每週至少接觸到一次的詐騙。"},{"start":1613.53,"end":1622.816,"text":"排名第三而且僅有6%的民眾顯示說很少或是未接觸過詐騙而且損失追回的比例上臺灣僅13%遠遠遠低於日本和新加坡的28%跟25%"},{"start":1626.485,"end":1656.18,"text":"最誇張的是裡面有講到估計的被詐騙金額的黑數是2000億台幣只是我們2023年官方統計的領頭院長覺得這個有改善的空間嗎當然有所以我堅信不是越打越多是我們不打更多所以一定要嚴打讓它降下去拜託大院趕快通過修法讓我們手中真的我有力氣那我一定要求嚴格的執行那現在其實對於這個結果越打越炸的結果看起來這個形容詞其實真的還是比我們新冠疫"},{"start":1656.601,"end":1656.801,"text":"內政部"},{"start":1687.966,"end":1714.345,"text":"他有打詐中心。速發部也有。法務部也有。當然他檢調單位。金管會對金融機關。還有通傳。NCC當然也是一個關鍵。好,就是剛剛講的金管會、速發部、NCC、法務部還有我們內政部、檢政署這些的。那以上幾大部會也是涵蓋了大部分民眾會遇到詐騙時會需要提供協助的這個機關。但我們發現其中有很多的"},{"start":1714.821,"end":1716.924,"text":"而且還能以打入詐騙集團並有業務合作為榮,名字遮起來看還以為是想加入黃仁勳的AI團隊。"},{"start":1731.434,"end":1756.426,"text":"所以我們看看其實還有一堆的以下一堆的詐騙集團勾結這個律師、檢察官、法官、警察、銀行行員、NCC委員、廣告公司我想這哪裡是打架國家打詐國家隊根本是詐騙國家隊這些都是這些職業都是我們國家的精英公務員但是我們裡面是有出現害群之馬的現象所以我想這些害群之馬就會導致"},{"start":1757.881,"end":1763.377,"text":"我們沒有辦法,人民沒有辦法信任喔。你們要怎麼說服人民說相信政府沒有內鬼可以認真的打詐。"},{"start":1766.397,"end":1791.064,"text":"任何團體裡面有害群之馬都是團體最傷腦筋的。我想內閣團隊會嚴加的管理跟要求督促我們的首長對屬下的各種生活還有這個公職習慣作息時間應該好好的了解,讓他們能夠在公務時間當中單純的以處理公務為主。謝謝院長,所以希望你可以秉持勿枉勿重的精神,全力找出害群之馬。"},{"start":1792.024,"end":1817.494,"text":"再來因為這個事件讓我們想到過去在打這個假球很盛行的時候其實真的發現這個好的球員到最後發現哇原來身邊的隊友總教練最後他要報告到球隊的老闆他全部都是打全部都是詐騙的一環就是全部都是打假球的一環都被收買只有他自己乖乖打球所以這個部分我要提醒的院長就是說請你們勿晃勿撞一定要從裡面好好的展現你們的決心"},{"start":1825.645,"end":1831.711,"text":"好,謝謝廖委員。好,謝謝卓院長。下一位請林委員處應質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154086","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154086","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529aee849c5df4a09cb884a337f76c37b5eac068960e09b3c1e89862157efe858d265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"17:20:15 - 17:51:19","影片長度":"00:31:04","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T17:20:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T17:51:19+08:00","duration":1864,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（17時20分）主席、各位官員。不好意思，我今天發生了緊急的聲帶發炎水腫的窘境，雖然我上臺前有吃藥打針，可是聲音還是沒有辦法恢復得很好，但是我有很多問題想要跟院長還有官員們討論，所以懇請韓院長允許我輔助使用葛如鈞委員協助開發的AI陳菁徽的聲音來進行質詢還有提問。"],["主席：請。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝，不好意思！本席認為假使未來有委員遇到相同的狀況，或者是身體上有其極限的委員，比如漸凍症的患者，這是未來可以供我們參考的應用。經過此次的質詢，也希望大家可以反思，是不是議事人員部分的工作，我們就交由AI來協助，或是現在醫護人員是潰堤的狀態，最基本的衛教工作也可以如此推進。當然，這是本席初次也是立法院首次的AI輔助質詢，一定會有非常多的不完美，等等我也會看情況協助官員們打斷我自己，以便回答，相信未來如果我們可以把這個技術再精進得更好，我相信立法院、行政院都可以率先來試辦、試行，這樣可以大大地減少現在很多議事人員、官員們overload的現象，很謝謝主席的允許。","接下來，我想請卓院長還有國發會主委。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢，國發會請備詢。"],["陳委員菁徽：院長恭喜。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好，你辛苦了，多保重！"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：隨時喝口茶。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：少子化是國安危機，這一個蔡前總統的定調，目前有沒有改變？而過去賴總統當行政院長時，主政並推出少子化計畫，但他的總統就職演說中竟一句話都沒有提到，您認為這代表總統跟行政院還有重視嗎？當初少子化對策計畫引用林萬億政委的報告說，少子女化對策有三個目標，確保嬰幼兒的照顧品質與健全成長，這個代表數據是幼童死亡率，我上次已經質詢過，蔡政府跳票，性別公平這個是很大的議題，有很多方方面面，但我們現在來檢討第三，提升生育率的部分。院長，您知不知道我們最新的生育率數字是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：不到0.9%吧。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們等一下公布答案。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：當初國發會負責中央政府的人口發展統整，並且也花經費做預測系統，名字叫人口推估查詢系統，還把預測做到2070年，院長您用過嗎？您覺得這個系統準嗎？我也已經貼在旁邊，我知道您會說有很多因素，不過這個系統確實預測失準，你們說要找人口社會學家、專家討論，我想問你們有沒有公式在專門處理這件事？背後的參數是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，這個網站我確實是沒有進去過，但如果存在很多問題，國發會應該要立刻地去查明而且改進。"],["陳委員菁徽：你現在看到2070年這樣子的數據，我們一年的新生兒只有7萬人，去年我們大概是13.5萬人。"],["卓院長榮泰：十三萬多。"],["陳委員菁徽：你有什麼感覺嗎？你覺得這個國發會開發的人口推估預測準確嗎？到2070年，我們是真的……"],["卓院長榮泰：在面對少子化的這個問題當中，我們努力了很多年，但確實成效不是那麼地明顯，雖然我們用很多0到6歲、0到22歲等等輔助的一些補助政策，但是最終就是要鼓勵年輕人敢婚敢生的這個過程當中，我們還要做很多、更多努力，我想國發會一定會用新的方向、新的思考來提出一個新的政策出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們先來公布答案，最左邊是我們國發會的網站，原本預測我們2023年、2024年的出生率，我們居然是預測0.95、1.05，我們來看一下。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：就是因為我去看了你們的出生率預測，我看了看覺得奇怪，有一點看不懂，左邊這張圖表是從民進黨政府執政之後的出生率，2016年到2022年是實際值，這是確定的，我們可以看到少子化對策的成效，其實應該是要檢討的，執政那麼多年，結果出生率是一節、一節掉。我們來細看每一年的數字，紅字的部分就是你們的預測值，就算你們連續6年走低之後，你們的預測值竟然在2023年開始回升，我實在是很好奇，為什麼可以這樣校正回歸？請問你，你們預測2023年是0.95，現在2023年的數字出來了嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：是0.865啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不到0.9。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們國家在2021年是全球最後一名，2022、2023是全球倒數第二名，至今都是一樣。韓國2022、2023是0.7，他們預測2024年是0.68，是他們自己喔！可是我們預測我們自己是1.05耶，這其中是有什麼自信嗎？還是貓膩嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個預測值如果是呈現這個樣子，顯示當時的預測跟現在實際是失準的，對於這個部分政府應該做檢討，我們如果把它……"],["陳委員菁徽：而且你們應該回去修改一下吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是修改……"],["陳委員菁徽：我是說修改預測值。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是修改整個政策，讓它能夠往好的方向走，而不是只修改數字。我們在現在的數字上……"],["陳委員菁徽：我是說你們可不可以預測得不要這麼寬？我們來看下一個問題，你們看2070年的預測出了什麼問題？"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：你們都沒發現更遠的預測值也很誇張嗎？全部都是平的耶！而且從2043開始，全部都是1.2，一點都沒有變，我第一次看到預測長這樣的。而且最好笑的是，2036年你們有一個1.23的高點，我百思不得其解，為什麼突然變高？院長、主委你們有概念嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我相信當時這樣的預測一定是經過政策的研討之後，在政策的輔佐底下算出來的。因為社會環境、整個大環境的變遷很多，當時可能沒有算到這些，但是現在我承認，如果是剛剛的那個預測值跟事實相較不準、不正確，我們就應該把它照現在的……"],["陳委員菁徽：不是，我覺得中間有一年凸起來，合理，那一年你們有想到是為什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：龍年嘛！"],["陳委員菁徽：龍年。可是為什麼後面的龍年你就不理它了？你沒有校正回歸後面的龍年，你後面全部都是1.2，這個可能嗎？你自己都發現第一個龍年了……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個需要檢討，我們要深刻地檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，接下來也是攸關我們行政院官員的福祉，所以我們來看一下這個托育的。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們要來看公家單位的狀況，你們的計畫裡面說，要擴大公部門托育服務示範效果，除了現在有洽簽特約方式外，希望各機關托育需求評估設置托育設施，這點現在進度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：就拿行政院來看，它可能很多是空間的設置都受到規範，而且沒有做需求的調查。這個部分如果放到各個單位、各個部會去，也許都面臨到類似或者是不同的問題，我們可以來針對今天委員所提出的這些問題來做討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，這個公務機關，曾經人事有去調查過他們的需求。他們都有提出需求，像海委會的托嬰需求就有22個孩子，托兒需求有48個孩子；外交部有11個孩子有托嬰的需求，22個孩子有育兒的需求。結果我們搜尋了你們自己建立的網站，因為院長說得很好，少子化方方面面，托育也是您自己說的，0到6歲國家養也是您自己說的。可是看這邊，行政院、海委會、外交部是通通沒有進度啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，事實上要設這個托育中心，我們在衛福部有一些比較嚴格的規範，這幾年政府也投入很多的資源，像行政院，事實上在財政部、文化部等相關部會，行政院部本部本身是因為它的辦公空間的限制，在海委會，他們現在在籌劃蓋的那個大樓裡面，也有把托嬰的設施直接納進來，外交部的情況跟行政院的情況是比較一樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是我是不是為他們請命？因為像立法院鄰近的公務機關也會來登記我們的托嬰中心，所以現在我們的候補已經100多個了，所以這並不是沒有需求，其實有需求。我們既然希望這些爸媽可以多生，如果行政院願意的話，您知道您的副發言人上個週末也辦了揭曉性別party，就他也預計要喜迎他的小孩……"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是、是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這個需求都是在的，您只要開始，我相信許多行政院附近的公務機關都會很需要您的托嬰、托育設施。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，我承諾我們回去就這個問題真的要好好來討論、檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，既然沒有特別設置設施，我們也幫行政院的同仁去搜尋了有相關配合的機構，搜尋的結果不得了，居然托嬰是跟1家在宜蘭、1家在高雄做配合，托兒是5家臺北市的，而且很遠，離行政院都非常的遠，所以我在這邊很誠懇的建議，可以先從公部門做好，畢竟行政院是一個這麼大的部門……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。我們來探討下一個，這個人口政策會報，卓院長，你也知道106年5月開過一次，賴清德總統當行政院長的時候停止了，這個您知道嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們再看蔡政府期間的中央……人口政策會報，只在106年5月開過一次會而已，接著時任行政院長的賴清德總統……把行政院人口政策會報停止，卓院長，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起！沒有聽清楚問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，要不要先把那個AI關掉……"],["主席：陳委員，我給你建議，AI講話的時候，你就不要再講，這樣連我也都聽不見，好不好？你就讓AI講。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝院長。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們再看少子化辦公室也是成立沒多久就結束，美其名說併入少子女化對策方案的業務，但其實就是在停擺，看到簡報右下角的衛福部專題報告內容，衛福部低調的承認，少子化辦公室不過只是衛福部內的編組而已，沒有跟其他單位對話，這也難怪草草退場。院長，所以敢不敢承諾恢復賴清德總統擔任院長時喊卡的行政院人口政策會報，將少子化這種國安議題至少重新拉升回到行政院層級來嚴肅處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：在推動少子女化的對策計畫當中，我們整合了11個部會，現在要讓它功能產生，如果在院內可以舉行這個必要會議的話，讓它能夠功能產生，落實下去，少子化的辦公室，因為現在衛福部在這個業務上面已經在執行，我們是不是請衛福部來說明一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我想解決少子化，我們所有部會都當成是一個追求的目標，所以政策都會跟少子化相關……"],["陳委員菁徽：院長，剛剛有別的委員問到，我們這個少子化計畫快要結束了，到113年。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為對國家未來有必要的計畫，實質上，我們可以來調整。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，剛剛有提到育嬰、育兒的方面要顧，所以我們也來看一下，其實我剛剛才跟邱部長去參加WHA世界醫師聯盟的早餐會，這個會長是一個北歐的女醫師，他聽完我們的育嬰產假制度，他瞠目結舌，他說我們這樣子是沒有辦法拯救我們的少子化，對不對？那位女醫師是這樣說的嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是我今天也想讓院長看一下我們是如何落後於世界。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們直接來看勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所在110年提出的「育嬰留職停薪津貼政策對於育兒勞工之影響及相關輔助政策探討」，一百五十幾頁的報告，我們整理了報告中研究其他國家的經驗與數據後發現，我們真的跟不上國際，不論有薪資的週數或生育率，這些國家都是比我們還要高。所以我要呼籲院長，如果國際做得到，我們沒有道理做不到，也不用那麼多藉口、理由，就是提高產假的週數，就算不是一次到位12週，但從我們輸慘其他國家的週數，真的要趕快趕上。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛我們有提過，我們會透過勞動部跟勞雇雙方來談一個未來合理的進步，我也很嚮往臺灣成為北歐那種社會福利國家，但是在進程過程當中，我們應該還是要做階段性的努力啦！但是能夠朝一個更合理、進步、福利的國家進步，這當然是大家共同的目標。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為現在日本、韓國非常緊張，所以我也在這邊給院長一個建議，我很希望在行政院可以有男性的官員率先來施行。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們來分享日本政府的作法，因為日本的社會風氣，導致男性要申請育嬰假會遇到更多的挑戰跟困難，所以他們的厚生勞動省就要求，100人以上的企業應該要訂定男性育嬰假目標，從上而下改變育兒環境，不只有給女性更多的補貼與休假，我們更要鼓勵男性承擔起照顧養育的意識與責任，這樣才能達到家庭分工的平權，真正讓所有的勞工都受到照顧與保障，這部分具體建議院長，希望可以多多學習國外好的經驗。"],["卓院長榮泰：追求平權一向是我們的目標，好的政策，無論是哪個國家，我們都希望吸取新的知識、新的政策，我們來做一些評比跟研究。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝，我很期待這個少子化計畫下一年度的版本。這是今天才公布的，我們來看一下。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：卓院長，今天瑞士洛桑管理學院（IMD）針對今年世界競爭力有一個最新的報告，臺灣在世界競爭力的整體排名今年是第8名，但是我們醫療與環境卻是第24名，並且回顧過去五年的成績，其實都沒有進步，在24與26名之間徘徊不前。","臺灣的醫療技術與服務是聞名全球，這無可否認，上個月我代表前往WHA參加各種國際會議，與各國專家學者們交流時，大家都是先讚嘆臺灣醫療服務一級棒。很感謝各國代表的讚美與祝福，但有一個真相卻是，頂級醫療服務品質是所有醫護人員血汗打拚所成就出來的，反觀政府對於醫療環境基礎建設的投資卻是寥寥無幾，成效有限。本席一再強調，臺灣的醫療是建立在血汗醫護之上，僅用第24名的醫療建設，卻有世界第1名的醫療品質，現在仰賴的就是醫護的熱情和愛，本席非常擔心燒完、用完的一天。總歸一句，請院長能多多為醫護著想，改善醫療環境。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員，雖然在過去幾年我們的公衛體系有受到國際的矚目跟一定的成就，但是剛剛這個評比，與其去看評比內容的項目，我倒願意優先看看我們實際的醫療環境，哪個地方還是缺失的，我們直接來補齊。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們等一下來討論，但是這個議題，我們公部門的投資太少，這個從各種數據可知，其實我們從520之前的質詢一直到現在，一直到今天，因為我們剛好去瑞士實地參訪洛桑管理學院，連洛桑管理學院都覺得臺灣人真的很……對於醫護人員，我覺得很誇張，或者是也有點悲哀。我們是用這麼少、這麼少的公部門支出，做出一個這麼亮眼的成績，等一下本席會給你看一下最近的新聞事件。","接下來，我們來看賴總統的健康臺灣，有一個三高一腎的免費篩檢，也就是說，我們把這些慢性病友及早篩檢出來、及早治癒，或是及早用行為治療。那我們來看它的問題在哪裡？"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：首先，成人預防保健服務已經做了快三十年，主要是針對40歲到65歲以上的國人每三年做一次，65歲以上再做一次更全面的檢查，但根據近十年健檢利用率顯示，其實免費健檢門檻下降到30歲的這份禮物，看似很美，其實效益不大，尤其每一年近十億元的支出，利用率卻連續三年未超過三成，實在很難看出來政府做了何種改變。"],["陳委員菁徽：這樣可以理解嗎？它的利用率很低耶！而且六都，比如說臺北市，它的利用率是不到20%，你們想得出來原因在哪裡嗎？我覺得這個美意是非常好，但是它的利用率這麼低，部長知道為什麼嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：原因相當的多，請委員先指教。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來播。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：院長，勞動部要求企業僱用勞工時應做勞工體檢，另外，勞工在職期間還需要做一般健檢，這某種程度上其實就是重複了。本席認為為了避免浪費行政資源，行政上不要疊床架屋，更不要增加血汗健保體制的負擔，政府是否應考慮更周全的作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我覺得預防是有效提早治療的方式之一，甚至可以減少健保的支出，那麼勞工朋友或者是在公司裡面的同仁，有體檢的福利是受到很多人歡迎的，您說的重複，應該是在進到職場的第一年才會比較可能發生吧？"],["陳委員菁徽：我先講一下為什麼，因為六都的基層醫師都會跟我反映，第一、他的公司已經提供他幾乎跟你們提供的都一樣了，所以他就會做公司的，不會來做政府提供的，但是有一個很基本的前提，就是你的數據就失真了，因為他如果沒有來做政府提供的，你的利用率只有20%，所以你最後輸出的慢性病流行病學就是那20%，他可能沒有公司的體檢，可能沒有自費去一些高階的機構做體檢，但是這群人可以代表全部臺灣人的數據嗎？不代表。接下來你可能會根據你調查到這些慢性病的數據，再去分配各縣市的健康投資，但是當你連第一關的數據都不太對的時候，你分配的資源一定又有偏差，所以這件事情疊床架屋，既然我們是AI內閣，院長也承諾臺灣未來要走向AI的導向，我們就是要利用醫療數據、大數據幫助我們施政更有效率，可是你看現在衛福部在做的事跟勞動部在做的事是重疊的、是疊床架屋的。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長回答。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，依照我個人的經驗，我在臺大醫院工作那麼多年，電腦的系統應該不至於會把勞檢跟員工健檢或者是所謂的成人健檢的data去重複，我們會看他已經做哪些了，大概就不會再去做這些……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，其實問題是這樣子，我也幫大家解釋一下，他如果去私人機構，不一定這些資料會串聯到我們的健保資料庫，因為有隱私的問題。其實卓院長現在在這邊，所以我也希望卓院長可以看到部會之間溝通協調的問題，如果由您來領導，其實他們中間許許多多的醫護是做了重複的事情，但是資料沒有串聯，這個問題很大，可是我們還是要去請教相關的法律專家，看未來有沒有機會把它串聯起來，比如說，私立機構或者是勞檢，願意配合的，我們給他誘因；願意簽名同意的，我們也給這個自願檢查的人誘因；或者是願意自費做高階健檢的，他願意把資料串聯，我們也可以在稅務還是什麼地方給予誘因，因為他願意自掏腰包做身體檢查，為了可以減少國家未來的負擔，這不是很好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，報告委員，首先我們珍惜醫療資源，所以重複的檢查要避免，這樣我們才能夠在更緊縮的成本裡來因應健保所需，同時，我們更要珍惜醫療資訊，希望能夠串聯起來，像我們到大醫院去都會填一個能夠在雲端看自己所有檢查報告的資料，如果能夠落實到非大醫院的其他中型或小型診所，這有待衛福部去做……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，因為利用率只是二、三成，我相信院長應該也會覺得使用率實在太低了！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，過去二十年來醫院跟基層做了很好的結合，不管是在分級醫療或者像一些社區醫療群，其實基層醫療跟醫院的資訊，尤其是比較基本的數據方面，應該是可以互通的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們會繼續追蹤這個。接下來要問一個許許多多人都關心的問題，這個議題其實吵蠻久的，所以請卓院長、邱部長直接回答，你們支不支持癌症新藥基金法制化？"],["卓院長榮泰：其實我們113年的新藥預算已經有增加，同時，在健保總額下的暫時性支付預算專款也有24億，兩個加起來接近50億，未來我們會朝向就總統所提出的百億新藥基金籌措適當財源，因為現在還在過程當中，所以有關衛福部及健保相關預算，我們先做這樣的安排，希望能夠讓現在有需要的國人得到適當的幫助。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，本席是希望法制化，可以有永續的財源，這才是我們所有癌症病友最關心的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來我就直接用講的，因為時間不夠。圖片上這則新聞上個週末被轉載了，相信部長也知道。有一位急診室醫生發出悲歌，而且還是醫學中心的急診室醫師，當天因為護理排班排不出來，也不是只有當天，其實這是常態，因此緊急調度其他單位，還好其他單位有人力可以調度，假使其他單位也很忙，那就完蛋了，因為那天他們用了美國十分之一的人力、美國三分之一的薪水，創造了零死亡率，有兩個送進來已經OHCA、到院前死亡的四十多歲壯年男生，用掉最後兩臺葉克膜，很幸運的還有加護病房，他說他再也撐不下去了！我知道剛剛有委員關切護病比，也有人關切護理津貼，請問針對這個白班特殊單位的護理津貼，你們有具體提出什麼時候前一定要落實嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["邱部長泰源：急重症的醫護人力是我們最近非常重視的問題，而且這是關鍵中的關鍵，過去我們政府也有提出要研討繁重津貼的部分，而在繁重津貼最近的一個討論，發現大家都覺得自己很繁重，所以這個部分我們會再研議。至於其他的中長期護病比獎勵，或其他環境的改善，我們有申請了一年大概四十億、四年一百多億經費來補助。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝，因為我們明天還要繼續協商健保法，其實這個對基層醫療來說也非常重要，畢竟我們通膨了這麼久，但我們的點值可是從來沒有通膨過，我想這也是你的切身之痛，所以我們也很期待，謝謝部長。","接下來我剩下最後一點點時間，希望幫我們高雄左營爭取，請卓院長、教育部鄭部長、國發會劉主委、工程會陳主委、主計總處陳主計長可以一同列席。我跟高雄所有年輕人聽到清大、陽明交大要來我們高雄都非常的開心，本席知道我們預計要設的是分部沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。在這邊其實有一個重點要強調，未來不管是在教育部的溝通，還有在行政院公共工程委員會、國發會，其實這是一個很大的project，它是為了我們高雄的子弟培養AI的人才，這樣他們就不用再北漂，他們也可以在高雄左營擁有非常好的資源來求學，未來找到很好的職業，所以我也希望卓院長可以在這邊跟我們的長官們一起來承諾，我知道未來它有非常非常多的協商，比如國發基金的支持必須要加急，其實在陳建仁院長卸任前一週已經批准了第二預備金，後續也需要行政院來協助在高雄的各項建設，協助他們把工程費用算清楚，可不可以請各位官員在這邊盡力協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很樂見這兩所學校把優良的學風帶到高雄去，教育部在上上個月已經就兩所大學送來的高雄分部計畫書審慎在評估當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，本會期對於新任行政院長排定政黨質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長列席答詢。","現作以下決定：下次會議進行立法委員個人質詢內政組之質詢，謝謝大家，我們現在散會。","散會（17時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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院長,您知不知道我們最新的生育率數字是多少?不到0.9吧。好,我們來下公布答案。"},{"start":186.559,"end":205.301,"text":"國發會負責中央政府的人口發展統整,並且花經費做預測系統,名字叫人口推估查詢系統,還把預測做到2070年。院長您用過嗎?您覺得這個系統準嗎?我也已經貼在旁邊,我知道您會說有很多因素,"},{"start":205.922,"end":217.918,"text":"不過這個系統確實預測失準。你們說要找人口、社會學家、專家討論。那我想問,你們有沒有公視在專門處理這件事?背後的參數是什麼?"},{"start":219.748,"end":238.773,"text":"抱歉,這個網站我確實是沒有進去過。但如果存在很多問題,國發會應該要立刻的去查明而且改善。那你現在看到2070年這樣子的數據,我們一年的新生兒只有7萬人,去年我們是大概13.5萬人。13萬多。你有什麼感覺嗎?你覺得這個國發會開發的人口推估預測準確嗎?"},{"start":244.955,"end":245.535,"text":"好,我們現在公佈答案。"},{"start":276.183,"end":286.039,"text":"來,最左邊是我們國發會的網站。原本預測我們2023年、2024年的出生率,我們居然是預測0.95、1.05。我們來看一下。"},{"start":291.897,"end":318.833,"text":"就是因為我去看了你們的出生率預測我看了感覺奇怪有點看不懂左邊這張圖表是從民進黨政府執政之後的出生率2016年到2022年是實際值就是確定的我們可以看到少子化對策的成效其實應該是要檢討的執政那麼多年結果出生率一節一節掉我們來細看每一年的數字"},{"start":319.633,"end":319.673,"text":"是0.865啊"},{"start":344.771,"end":356.979,"text":"所以我們國家在2021年是全球最後一名2022、2023是全球倒數第二名至今都是一樣韓國2022、20230.7他們預測2024年是0.68他們自己有可是我們預測我們自己是1.05耶這其中是有什麼自信嗎還是貓膩嗎"},{"start":374.372,"end":387.369,"text":"報告委員,這個預測值如果是呈現是這個樣子,顯示當時的預測跟現在時期是失準的。那對這個部分政府應該做檢討。我們如果把它..."},{"start":389.5,"end":392.002,"text":"我是說你們可不可以預測的不要這麼寬?因為我們來看下一個問題。你們到2070年的預測出了什麼問題?"},{"start":410.894,"end":410.914,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":434.334,"end":450.285,"text":"報告委員我相信當時這樣的預測一定是經過政策的研討之後在政策的輔佐底下算出來的那因為社會環境整個大環境的變遷很多當時可能沒有算到這些但是我現在我承認如果是剛剛那個預測值跟事實上不準"},{"start":451.178,"end":453.099,"text":"接下來是攸關我們行政院的官員的福祉所以我們來看一下"},{"start":481.084,"end":501.715,"text":"﹗"},{"start":503.632,"end":522.82,"text":"就拿行政院來看吧,它可能很多是空間的設置都受到規範,而且沒有做這個需求的調查,那這個部分如果放到各個單位各個部會去,也許都面臨類似或是不同的問題,那我們可以來,這對今天委員所提出的這個問題我們來做討論。"},{"start":525.276,"end":545.808,"text":"公務機關曾經人事有去調查過他們的需求,他們都有提出需求,像海委會對拖鷹需求有22個孩子,拖兒需求有48個孩子,外交部有11個孩子拖鷹的需求,22個孩子育兒的需求,結果我們搜尋了你們自己建立的網站,"},{"start":546.488,"end":560.451,"text":"因為院長說得很好,少子化方方面面,托育也是您自己說的,0到6歲國家養也是您自己說的,可是看這邊喔,行政院、海委會、外交部是通通沒有進度啊。這個部分我跟委員報告一下,事實上要設這個托育中心我們在衛福部有一些比較嚴格的一個規範,那這幾年"},{"start":573.439,"end":598.916,"text":"事實上政府也投入很多的資源像行政院事實上在財政部還有文化部相關部會那行政院部門部本身是因為他的辦公空間的限制那在海委會新的他們在現在在籌辦籌劃蓋的那個大樓裡面他也有把投印的設施直接都納進來"},{"start":600.459,"end":603.456,"text":"那外交部的情況跟行政院的情況是會比較一樣"},{"start":604.059,"end":631.781,"text":"但是我是不為他們請命因為像立法院臨近的公務機關也會來登記我們托嬰中心所以現在我們那個候補已經100多個了已經100多個了所以這並不是說沒有需求其實有需求我們既然希望這些爸媽可以多省像如果行政院您願意的話您知道您的副發言人上個週末也辦了揭曉性別party"},{"start":633.208,"end":635.569,"text":"我承諾我們回去就這個問題真的是要把我來討論檢討。"},{"start":656.732,"end":683.695,"text":"好,既然如果沒有特別的設施,我們也幫行政院的同仁去搜尋了這個有相關配合的機構。結果啊,搜尋得不得了,居然托嬰是跟一家在宜蘭、一家在高雄做配合。那托兒呢,是五家台北市的,而且很遠啊,離行政院都非常的遠。所以我"},{"start":684.415,"end":712.451,"text":"在這邊很誠懇的建議,可以先從公部門我們把它做好。畢竟行政院是一個這麼大的部門。好的,謝謝委員。好,是。那我們來探討下一個。我們再看蔡政府期間報中央人口政策會報。卓院長你也知道106年5月開過一次,這個賴清德總統當行政院長的時候停止,這個您知道嗎?"},{"start":713.832,"end":714.872,"text":"主委院長你知道嗎?那我們看一下下一頁。"},{"start":736.114,"end":762.353,"text":"來,那我們再看少子化辦公室也是成立沒多久就結束。每集明說併入少子女化對策方案的業務,但其實就是在停擺。看到右下角簡報的衛福部專題報告內容,衛福部低調地承認少子化辦公室不過只是衛福部內的編組而已,加國內沒有跟其他單位對話,這也難怪草草退場。"},{"start":763.334,"end":776.3,"text":"所以院長敢不敢承諾恢復賴清德總統擔任院長時喊卡的行政院人口政策匯報,將少子化這種國安議題至少重新拉升回到行政院層級來嚴肅處理。"},{"start":779.537,"end":799.995,"text":"我們在推動少子化的少子化的對策計畫當中我們整合了11個部會那現在這個要讓它功能產生如果在院內我們可以舉行這個必要的會議的話讓它能夠功能產生落實下去那少子化的辦公室因為現在衛福部已經在這個業務上面這個政策上在做確診執行了我們請衛福部來答詢一下"},{"start":803.308,"end":831.313,"text":"好我想少子化是我們一直所有部會都認為是最重都把它當成是一個追求的一個目標所以相關的政策都會跟少子化來相關院長剛有別的委員問到我們這個少子化計畫快要結束了快要結束了到11、3年我們認為對國家未來有必要的計畫在時程上我們可以來調整"},{"start":834.957,"end":835.237,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":855.612,"end":859.055,"text":"我今天想讓院長看一下我們是如何落後於世界。"},{"start":872.128,"end":892.844,"text":"但我們直接來看勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所在110年提出的育嬰留職停薪津貼政策對於育兒勞工之影響及相關輔助政策探討150幾頁的報告我們整理了報告中研究其他國家的經驗與數據後發現我們真的跟不上國際"},{"start":896.772,"end":896.952,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":920.671,"end":932.728,"text":"剛剛我們有提過我們會跟透過勞動部跟勞僱雙方啊來談一個未來合理的進步但是我也很嚮往台灣成為北歐那種社會福利國家但是我們應該"},{"start":934.13,"end":935.59,"text":"分享日本政府的做法。"},{"start":956.576,"end":985.635,"text":"因為日本的社會風氣導致男性要申請育嬰假會遇到更多的挑戰跟困難。所以他們的後生勞動省就要求100人以上的企業應該要訂定男性育嬰假目標從上而下改變育兒環境不只有給女性更多的補貼與休假我們更要鼓勵男性承擔起照顧養育的意識與責任這樣才能達到家庭分工的平權"},{"start":986.756,"end":1014.144,"text":"真正讓所有的勞工都受到照顧與保障這部分具體建議院長希望可以多多學習國外好的經驗追求平權是我們一向的目標那好的政策無論是哪一個國家我們都希望吸取新的知識新的政策我們來做一些評比跟研究好 謝謝我很期待這個少子化計畫下一年度的版本"},{"start":1016.102,"end":1041.533,"text":"這今天才公布的,我們來看一下。卓議院長,今天瑞士洛桑管理學院IMD針對今年世界競爭力有一個最新的報告。臺灣在世界競爭力的整體排名今年是第8名。但是我們醫療與環境卻是第24名。並且回顧過去5年的成績,其實都沒有進步,在24與26名之間徘徊不淺。"},{"start":1048.995,"end":1071.469,"text":"臺灣的醫療技術與服務是聞名全球,這無可否認。上個月我代表前往WHA參加各種國際會議,與各國專家學者們交流時,大家都是先讚嘆臺灣醫療服務一級棒,很感謝各國代表的讚美與祝福。但有一個真相卻是,頂級醫療服務品質,"},{"start":1073.75,"end":1097.08,"text":"是所有醫護人員協和打拼所成就出來的。反觀政府對於醫療環境基礎建設的投資卻是寥寥無幾,成效有限。本席一再強調臺灣的醫療是建立在協和醫護之上,僅用著第24名的醫療建設卻有世界第一名的醫療品質。"},{"start":1098.821,"end":1120.235,"text":"現在仰賴的就是醫護的熱情和愛本期非常擔心燒完用完的一天總規矩請院長能多多為醫護著想改善醫療環境雖然我們在過去幾年我們的公衛體系有受到國際的矚目跟一定成就但是剛剛這個評比"},{"start":1122.352,"end":1122.592,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":1152.932,"end":1155.533,"text":"接下來我們來看賴總統的健康台灣有一個三高一勝的免費篩檢也就是說我們把"},{"start":1179.659,"end":1179.779,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":1194.045,"end":1220.333,"text":"首先承認預防保健服務已經做了快30年主要是針對40歲到65歲以上的國人每3年做一次65歲以上再做一次更全面的檢查但根據近10年健檢利用率顯示其實免費健檢門檻下降到30歲的這份禮物看似很美其實效益不大"},{"start":1221.033,"end":1249.94,"text":"尤其每一年進10億元的支出利用率卻連續三年未超過三成實在很難看出來政府做了何種改變這樣可以理解嗎?它的利用率很低而且六都比如說台北市它的利用率是不到20%你們想得出來原因在哪裡嗎?我覺得這個美意是非常好"},{"start":1251.084,"end":1254.065,"text":"運總,勞動部要求企業雇用勞工時應做勞工體檢,另外勞工在職期間還需要做一般健檢,這某種程度上其實就是重複了。"},{"start":1278.82,"end":1303.846,"text":"本席認為為了避免浪費行政資源,行政上不要跌床駕屋,更不要增加血汗健保體制的負擔。政府是否應考慮更周全做法?報告委員,我覺得預防是一個有效的提早治療的方式之一,甚至可以減少健保的支出。那麼勞工朋友或是在公司裡面"},{"start":1305.851,"end":1319.292,"text":"的同仁有這個體檢的福利是受到很多人歡迎的但您說的重複應該是在進到一個工職場的第一年或是才會比較可能發生吧"},{"start":1319.807,"end":1339.961,"text":"我先講一下為什麼,因為這個六都都有跟我反映,基層的醫師。第一,他的公司已經提供他,幾乎跟你們提供的都一樣了。所以呢,他就會做公司的,他不會來做政府運用的。但是有一個很基本的前提,你的數據就失真了。"},{"start":1340.902,"end":1363.899,"text":"因為他如果沒有來做政府提供的你原利用率只有20所以你最後輸出的我們的慢性病流行病學就是那20%他可能沒有公司的體檢可能這個沒有自費去一些高階的機構做體檢所以這一群人他有代表全部台灣人的數據嗎不代表"},{"start":1364.719,"end":1383.852,"text":"接下來呢你可能會根據你調查到的這些慢性病的數據再去分配各縣市的健康投資嘛但是你連第一關的數據都不太對的時候你分配的資源一定又有偏差所以這件事情跌床加屋既然我們是AI內閣"},{"start":1385.273,"end":1385.473,"text":"報告委員．依照"},{"start":1408.53,"end":1425.407,"text":"我個人的經驗,我在台大醫院工作那麼多年,那應該電腦的系統不至於說會把勞檢跟員工健檢或者是所謂的成人健檢的data去重複。"},{"start":1431.347,"end":1439.196,"text":"沒關係,其實問題是這樣子,我也幫大家解釋一下。他如果去私人的機構,不一定這些資料會串聯到我們的健保資料庫,因為有隱私的問題。"},{"start":1442.339,"end":1459.233,"text":"所以其實這個其實是因為卓院長現在在這邊所以我也希望卓院長可以看到部會之間的溝通協調問題如果有您來領導其實他們中間許許多多的醫護是做了重複的事情"},{"start":1460.435,"end":1474.43,"text":"對但是資料沒有串聯這個問題很大可是我們還是要去請教相關的法律專家未來有沒有機會把它串聯起來比如說私立機構或者是勞檢他願意配合的我們給他誘因"},{"start":1475.291,"end":1475.311,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":1498.104,"end":1522.56,"text":"報告委員首先我們珍惜醫療資源所以重複的檢查要避免我們才能夠在更緊縮的成本裡面來因應健保的所需要同時我們要更珍惜醫療的資訊所以能夠串聯起來我覺得我們到大醫院去他都會填一個是不是能夠在雲端看自己的這個所有檢查報告那如果能夠落實到非大醫院其他的"},{"start":1526.668,"end":1532.781,"text":"對,因為利用率我只是二、三成,我相信院長你應該也會覺得這個使用率實在太低了啊。"},{"start":1535.654,"end":1562.952,"text":"保委員那個因為現在我們過去20年來也把醫療跟醫院跟基層做了很好的結合不管是在分級醫療或者是像一些社區醫療群其實基層醫療跟醫院的資訊是尤其是數據方面啦比較基本的數據方面應該是可以互通的好我們會繼續追蹤這個接下來是要問許許多多阿姨們關心的"},{"start":1564.933,"end":1580.425,"text":"卓院長,您有看到今天連...覺得這個議題是吵滿久,所以其實我們可以直接回答卓院長、邱部長有沒有這個支持把這個癌症新藥基金把它法制化呢?"},{"start":1582.267,"end":1601.574,"text":"我們現在在113年的新藥的預算已經有增加了那同時我們這個健保總額底下的暫時性支付預算專款也有24億兩個加起來將近接近50億接近50億那未來我們要朝向建立一個在籌措適當的裁員"},{"start":1603.896,"end":1604.076,"text":"主席"},{"start":1619.456,"end":1644.029,"text":"這是希望可以法治化永續的裁員,這個是我們所有癌症病有最關心的。再來我也是直接用講的,因為時間不夠。這個新聞上個週末被轉載了,相信部長知道,有一位急診室醫生發出了悲歌,而且還是醫學中心的急診室醫師。當天護理排班排不出來,而且這個不是當天,這個其實是常態。"},{"start":1645.845,"end":1664.667,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1664.827,"end":1665.247,"text":"你剛剛部長有說什麼?"},{"start":1690.58,"end":1715.472,"text":"我想集中症的醫護人力是我們非常最近非常重視的問題而且這是關鍵中的關鍵那在過去我們政府也有提出要研討繁重津貼這個部分那在繁重的津貼裡面最近的一個討論發現說大家都覺得自己很繁重"},{"start":1716.817,"end":1717.317,"text":"我們明天還要繼續寫商界毛髮。"},{"start":1736.869,"end":1757.654,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1758.898,"end":1779.607,"text":"請卓院長、教育部政部長、國發會劉主委、工程會陳主委、主計總處陳主計長可以一同列席。那我跟高雄所有的年輕人聽到清大陽明交代要讓我們高雄都非常的開心。那本席之道我們預計是要設的是分部沒錯吧?是謝謝"},{"start":1790.237,"end":1805.256,"text":"謝謝在這邊其實有個重點要強調不管是未來呢在教育部的溝通還有在行政院工程委員會還有在國發會其實這是一個很大的project可是它是為了我們高雄的子弟"},{"start":1805.897,"end":1806.117,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":1832.148,"end":1848.184,"text":"在陳菁的院長卸任前一周前已經批准了第二預備金後續也需要我們的行政院來協助在高雄的各項建設協助他們工程費用算清楚可不可以請各位官員在這邊盡力協助"},{"start":1862.936,"end":1862.998,"text":"謝謝陳菁衛委員"}]}},{"id":"154085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154085","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a458697a3c93d3c7a84a337f76c37b5eac068960e09b3c1e823ca7a029bb132625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"16:49:25 - 17:20:05","影片長度":"00:30:40","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T16:49:25+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T17:20:05+08:00","duration":1840,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":401,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（16時49分）院長好，請卓院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長好。今天新聞有報導，有漁民目擊共軍的094型核潛艇在臺灣海峽出現，應該是海峽的中線。"],["卓院長榮泰：海峽中線。"],["陳委員玉珍：不到海峽中線啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，沒有過來。"],["陳委員玉珍：應該是在比較偏我們金門這一邊發現，然後有漁民通報。"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們海軍有獎勵軍民合作，以前有提出一個獎勵辦法，發現軍艦跟公務船的民眾回報就有獎金，您知道這個辦法嘛！知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們不宜曝光漁民的身分，但是我想知道過去5年，成功拍下軍艦領獎後領獎金的案件數有多少？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們在112年是通報1件，獎金1萬，111年是通報3件，獎金3萬，在之前的比較多，我手上還沒有一個數字，如果會後有的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，您看拍下這些公務船、科研船，這幾年有沒有增加通報的趨勢？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，反而降低。"],["陳委員玉珍：反而降低。"],["顧部長立雄：降低。我剛剛講的就是說111年、110年比較多，111年以後只有3件，112年只有1件。"],["陳委員玉珍：那院長瞭解為什麼這個潛艦會在這裡浮起來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：國防部還在瞭解這整個過程跟它實際上的原因。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，按照我們相關的情監偵手段，已經有掌握這個潛艦的動態，在中線以西……"],["陳委員玉珍：講慢一點、大聲一點，聽不清楚。"],["顧部長立雄：在中線以西以浮潛的方式來進行。因為涉及到一些我們情監偵的手段，我想細節的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是要知道偵查的手段，你知道原因嗎？根據我請教軍事專家的結論，他說臺灣海峽中線以西這個地方因為是淺灘，比較危險，所以潛艦經過那個地方大概都用浮航的方式來進行，這是我請教軍事專家的。"],["顧部長立雄：是，那個地方只有幾十米而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：比較淺啦！"],["顧部長立雄：幾十公尺而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是我們請教軍事專家的，如果確實是這樣子，大概也要把資訊公開，因為這個大概就不是怎樣非常的……好像是什麼兵凶戰危，不要弄到好像很緊張。","院長，請問您瞭解金門嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我去過金門。"],["陳委員玉珍：去過金門幾趟？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩、三趟吧！"],["陳委員玉珍：兩趟啦！公開紀錄是有兩趟，我看到是有兩趟。我知道你也是民意代表出身，所以一定也是以民意為依歸，解決人民痛苦也是……大概你從以前開始擔任民意代表到現在擔任行政院院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：一樣的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們看到媒體報導，您到過金門兩次，一次是2018年12月擔任行政院秘書長，陪同我們現在的賴總統，那時候的行政院長去看金門大橋嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：另外一次就是很早以前，2006年6月擔任總統府秘書長的時候，陪同我們陳水扁總統去前線看防務的整備。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這兩次應該都還有印象嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：都還有印象。"],["陳委員玉珍：有印象啦！那您看看喔，金門在民國81年以前實行戰地政務，11月7號以後解除戰地政務，比臺灣76年解除戒嚴晚了5年。您看從解除戰地政務到現在民主政治發展，開始全面性的建設。您知道這一段的這個時候金門跟臺灣……因為您現在貴為行政院院長，是一院之長、我們行政的最高首長，當然不是只關注到臺灣這個島，還包括我們金門地區。您看它跟臺灣其他縣市，這個歷史軌跡你瞭解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一直很希望能夠再到金門看看金門那個很有特色的建築物，經過戰地政務解除之後，我相信它的社會風情有相當大的改變。"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：人跟人之間會更緊密的接觸，而且產業、觀光也有跟以前不一樣的發展趨勢。"],["陳委員玉珍：戰地政務時期遺留下來一些歷史問題，不知道院長有沒有瞭解？"],["卓院長榮泰：那個也是一個歷史的記憶，我覺得那個保存下來，對金門來講就是一個資產。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，除了是記憶以外，當然是觀光資產，事實上還有幾樣跟人民的權利相關，我先讓您有一個概念。最重要在金門來講，長年不斷的陳情問題大概就是土地的問題，所以還地於民一直是非常重要的政策。後來軍方慢慢撤軍，所以軍方很多土地……早年軍方來以後占了很多土地，包括有些地方埋地雷，所以很多金門鄉親的土地受限制，他就不能進入營區，不能進去。像我們以前小時候掃墓的時候，只有掃墓的時候可以進去，阿兵哥幫我們開起來，讓我們走進去這樣子。現在慢慢撤軍，軍人從以前的十萬大軍到現在已經很少人了，現在很多營區就是還地於民，撤出來就空了，空了就還給民眾。之前我們在修離島建設條例的時候有規定，在民國109年以前大家可以把土地要回去，但是那時候還要大家花錢買回原來祖先留下來的土地，是到109年截止。但問題是國軍的撤軍不是一天撤完，它是慢慢、慢慢撤，到現在事實上還有一些營區慢慢在撤出當中。在109年以後撤出的這些營區也有百姓的土地，可是我們離島建設條例規定的時間已經到了，購回土地的時間是109年，後來就沒有這個法源依據了，現在民眾要怎麼辦呢？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告一下，這個就是涉及到離島建設條例第九條。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，第九條。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我想委員應該都很清楚，它有一個公告期限。"],["陳委員玉珍：對、對、對。"],["顧部長立雄：如果在公告期限內就是可以申請以當年的公告地價來購回。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯、沒錯，前面的狀況都知道，軍方常常會回一個公文，比如說，去年我們還在使用，所以你沒有辦法申請購回，因為那還是屬於軍方在使用的營區。這幾年軍方從一些營區慢慢撤出了，百姓開始要求說我們的土地可以還給我們了，可是109年已經過了，我們國防部長是大律師，你看這個有沒有什麼不用修法的解決方式？"],["顧部長立雄：我……"],["陳委員玉珍：您知道我的意思嗎？法源是到109年，但是109年以後軍方才撤出土地，才開始讓民眾申請購回，在這之前申請購回的時候，軍方說，對不起！我們還在使用，你不能購回！即便已經解除戰地政務了，在金門還是這樣。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我的理解好像是在103年國發會修法的時候，當時就已經檢討了沒有公用需求的這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：你再說一次，大聲一點，對不起！"],["顧部長立雄：在103年國發會立法修正離島條例第九條條文的時候，就已經檢討沒有公用需求的部分了……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯。"],["顧部長立雄：就已經都交出來了。"],["陳委員玉珍：事實上很多是現在慢慢撤，現在還有營區是慢慢地交出來，從109年到現在（113年）還是有這樣的情形，這個事情要怎麼處理？這一類的情形，您回去研究一下，國防部長，你是法律專家，像這個時間──109年已經過了，但是實質上軍方現在撤出的，這是第一點。","第二點，早期因為金門島內生活不易，很多鄉親到南洋去，我們叫做「落番」，現在這些旅居南洋的僑親，因為不瞭解資訊，所以錯過這些時間，有沒有什麼彌補的方法？有沒有什麼購回的權利？您瞭解嗎？不用規定到109年，但是他們在南洋可能慢慢地才收到訊息，就是旅居南洋的鄉親。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我的瞭解好像是後來在110年的時候，國發會好像還是有再邀集金門跟連江縣政府，包括內政部、財政部國產署等單位研商，然後內政部認為離島建設條例第九條的購回規定，如果還要再修法延長放寬購回權，將使公地的產權會長期處於一個不確定的狀況……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道，我也問過國產署這個問題，它說如果這樣子會有這個情形產生嘛！但是我說的不是全部的公地，我說的是至少針對軍方原來這些營區嘛！我有問過國產署這個問題，在109年之前我就問過了，他們說這樣會造成不確定性，開發上、土地上等各方面會有問題。遇到這個情形你們研究一下，今天也沒有辦法在這邊要到答案，但是也要想辦法思考民眾這個問題要怎麼解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您的意思是109年截止之後，軍方的土地才……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，軍方的土地有的……"],["卓院長榮泰：才離開。"],["陳委員玉珍：在之前民眾申請嘛，接著軍方現在撤了……"],["卓院長榮泰：109年之後民眾是不可能申請的。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，因為沒有法源依據。"],["卓院長榮泰：那時候才發生的事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：不，本來就是民眾的，是因為之前申請的時候，軍方說我們還在使用。理論上，如果在臺灣地區哪有這種事情？我們的土地就是我們的土地，還給你用？但是金門地方跟軍方關係比較好，一般軍方說怎樣，大家就是協商一下看怎麼樣，但現在法源依據就沒有了，想想看是不是怎麼樣修法來解決這樣的問題啦！這個你們回去研究一下。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想回去再瞭解一下，有沒有您講的109年之後才釋出的土地。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。就是在那時候申請……"],["顧部長立雄：針對這個部分，我來瞭解一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，您瞭解一下好不好？因為有接到不少這樣的陳情案。","另外一個就是金門在推動基礎建設的時候會用到私有地，但沒有足夠的補償金，所以金門有很多政府在推動公共設施的時候土地都沒有被補償的情況，原因是早年……院長，您瞭解金門的政治組織嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在當然是……"],["陳委員玉珍：以前啦，您瞭解臺灣省就是在管臺灣、澎湖嘛，那金門是歸福建省管，您知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，馬祖也是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們福建省就管金門、馬祖還有淪陷的地區，早年因為有一個臺灣省，臺灣省轄下的地方政府會有一個公共設施徵收的補償金，但因為我們不是臺灣省，我們是福建省，我的身分證到現在也是福建省，我是中華民國福建省金門縣人，所以我們做那些縣道什麼的，都是我們自己出錢，包括到現在也是，到了財劃法……這個後面還會再跟您講，比如早年臺灣省不是管那個「水」嗎？自來水的「水」、用水的「水」，那臺灣省虛級化以後，這些都全部歸給中央去管，您瞭解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那金門以前就不是臺灣省，臺灣省沒有以後，你知道歸誰管嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是縣政府管？"],["陳委員玉珍：對，歸金門縣政府管，不是只有水，以前電也是啊，以前我們是金電，金門電力公司，後來當然歸給台電，水現在是金門自來水廠自己管，還有農林漁牧啦，像臺灣有林務局，臺灣省的，後來變成中央，反正就農林漁牧我們全部都自己管。我們金門是一個小國家，港口也是金門縣港務處管，還有自來水、以前的電，醫院以前有金門醫院，現在問題發生了，就是這些重大建設都需要很多經費，對吧？臺灣省虛級化以後，這個不就中央去管了嗎？可是我們金門就自己管，這是中央的事情，對吧？用水在臺灣島是中央的事情啊，在金門也應該是中央的事吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：像在臺北市，也是臺北市在管。"],["陳委員玉珍：臺北市是直轄市啊！金門是偏遠地區，對不對？所以應該歸給中央管，對不對？好，沒關係，我們幫忙管也就罷了，我們還幫忙墊錢，因為要做一些建設嘛，下面請經濟部和財政部部長，我們要幫忙墊錢做一些水的設施，設施做了以後，因為金門縣沒有錢嘛，我們就跟誰借錢？跟院長左邊那一位借錢，跟財政部借錢，因為這是經濟部水利署要做的事嘛，那是水利署要出錢，但是水利署說，不然你金門縣先做啦，做了以後我們再把錢還給你，金門縣政府說，沒有錢啊，沒有錢怎麼辦呢？水利署說沒有錢就跟財政部借啊，我們就跟財政部借錢，財政部，我們是不是跟你借的錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，地方建設基金。"],["陳委員玉珍：用財政部地方建設基金。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟基金借的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們這個錢是幫經濟部借的，不是幫金門縣，因為水是中央的事務嘛，我們幫經濟部借了這個錢，代墊啦！地方幫中央代墊，跟財政部借錢，借了錢以後本來就慢慢還，我們還，經濟部給我們，我們再還回去，每一年都這樣在run，對不對？兩位部長知道嗎？我們以前是這樣在run嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，金門縣是跟地方建設基金借了10億。"],["陳委員玉珍：貸款啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，貸款10億，但是5年的借款期限……"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝，我讓院長瞭解一下現在的情形。好，現在他們說這個地方建設基金要解編了，就是要結束，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：已經結束了。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們就說金門縣你欠的錢趕快還來，我們說好，那我們就說經濟部趕快把錢拿過來，我們趕快還給財政部，可是經濟部好像說沒有錢欸，那我們為什麼要被卡在中間？我們是媳婦，是不是？院長，我們墊錢以後，你右邊那個不還錢給左邊那個，也不給我們，那財政部說要扣我們的什麼統籌分配款喔？聽說是要扣統籌分配款。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是你應該處理，你左手那個不給錢啊，你右手那個要還給左手那個，院長，你要主持一下公道！怎麼處理呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：我是問院長啦，因為他才有決定權，你也教不了經濟部……"],["卓院長榮泰：先讓部長說明一下，這個過程部長瞭解……"],["陳委員玉珍：他瞭解，我跟他在財政委員會提過了。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，金門縣政府是跟地方建設基金借錢，借款期限是5年，在今年113年1月已經到期，那就應該還嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，當時借十億，還有兩億四……"],["陳委員玉珍：還有兩億四沒有還嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：還有兩億四千萬。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我們現在說，經濟部拜託錢來！要還給財政部。經濟部怎麼說？兩億四。我又不是行政院長，對吧！這是你們中央政府自己的事情，經濟部什麼時候要還錢？"],["郭部長智輝：這件事情我不清楚，我回去……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不瞭解喔？"],["郭部長智輝：我回去瞭解一下再跟陳委員報告。"],["陳委員玉珍：你瞭解一下，是不是還過來，不然財政部說要扣我們的什麼統籌分配款，他剛剛有跟我講了。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，財政部相當清楚這樣的錢的流向，是不是請財政部再說明？"],["陳委員玉珍：他剛剛有跟我講了，因為我問的問題很多……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，重點要讓他說出來。"],["陳委員玉珍：我還會再問他，但是院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：重點要讓他說出來。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，因為其實這是兩件事情，當然經濟部當時有承諾說要給予這個水價……"],["陳委員玉珍：他承諾的喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：水價的差價補貼。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：也給了大概有70%，大概在111年已經給金門縣政府……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，差價補貼嘛！重點是……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，已經有四億多了，目前還有30%沒有給，所以這個部分……可是跟地方建設基金借的錢，我們是依照借款契約來領錢。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，應該還你們啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：所以是……"],["陳委員玉珍：可是這是經濟部的事情，你不要在我面前左手右手自己打架。院長，你回去想要怎麼處理。這個本來是你們的事情，我們是幫你們做而已，對吧？我們是幫你做，水不就是你們的事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣聽起來，我聽懂了，這是兩筆錢啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，兩件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：我聽懂了，這是兩筆錢啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啦！我跟你講，回歸到底這個水的事情是歸誰管，歸我金門縣政府出錢喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個就經濟部、財政部，這是兩筆錢，這不是金門水庫的。"],["陳委員玉珍：報告院長，不要講這個錢，光這個工我們幫你做了耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：照財政部講這是兩筆錢，歸地方建設基金的，還有就是水價補貼的，這是兩筆錢，所以錢應該分開算。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，我們就用那個補貼的錢來還給他嘛！不然你叫我們去……因為本來這個錢就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個沒有辦法要第三人去……移過來。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，你回去瞭解清楚，你回到癥結點，回到最高的癥結就是這個事情應該歸誰管？這些錢應該誰出？當初經濟部承諾他會給，我們先墊，我們也沒錢跟財政部借。"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部管理的基金有財政部管理基金的範圍……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部有經濟部補助的政策。"],["陳委員玉珍：是啦！你站在中間嘛！你站在這裡看，左右都是你管的，你回去想想辦法。"],["卓院長榮泰：我必須站在中間，兩邊才能平衡。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，但我們不應該站在裡頭，那是你們中央的事情啊！水干我們……水是你們的事情，你聽懂了沒？"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部部長再跟委員好好清楚地講一下這個過程……"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，我知道他在說什麼，他說：該還錢的要還啦！你再去跟經濟部要啦！他已經跟我說了，經濟部在這邊。"],["卓院長榮泰：他不會這麼說。他現在不是這麼說，他是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：他是這樣跟我講啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：應該不是這麼說……"],["陳委員玉珍：要還嘛！叫我去跟經濟部講。那沒關係，我也不要在這裡跟你爭執，因為我還有好多問題，你去瞭解一下，我們回到最源頭、最源頭。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個事情歸誰？歸中央嘛！水幹嘛歸我金門縣政府要去出錢做這些事情！","不過我要跟您講一下，倒是金門的水從2018年以後開始從大陸接水，現在我們一天大概用水是兩萬噸，大概有70%，一萬三千、一萬四千噸是從大陸來的，就是大陸的水供給我們，然後我們付錢給他們，是原水，我們再經過一些處理。但是我們依賴大陸用水的程度事實上很深，這5年來也的確因為大陸有供水，所以讓我們免於乾旱。但是我看兩岸局勢現在這麼緊張，對不對？所以我建議經濟部也要去盤點我們自有的水資源，不管是造水或是各方面要去想一下，不然真的……當然我覺得大陸是不會這樣對我們啦！但是萬一真的水龍頭關起來3天，大概金門也不用做什麼事了。所以還是要去盤點相關水資源建設的情形，院長，這個你是不是要帶回去研究一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，中國跟臺灣兩邊雖然社會制度不同，對於主權的意見還是分歧，但是對於人民的生活，不應該把它當作一個籌碼來使用……"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們希望善意地對待……"],["陳委員玉珍：你希望它的水還是源源不絕啦！我也跟你一樣希望。"],["卓院長榮泰：兩岸領導人應該有機會、有善意去面對如何改善人民的生活……"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是說現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：確保區域的和平。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，這是當然，民生還是優先。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：水的這個問題你要幫我們想啊！這幾年真的如果沒有大陸供水，金門已經乾旱很嚴重了，每一天大概有七成的水是來自大陸，所以水資源的建設方面可能也要去盤點一下，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：接著，經濟方面，我們中央政府這幾年核定的相關建設，我先跟你講一下小三通陸客這個部分，為什麼談到金門大部分都會談到兩岸？從民國大概九十幾年到一百多年，這十幾年來不管是哪一位總統，從陳水扁總統、馬英九總統到蔡英文總統任內，中央所核定的相關建設計畫裡頭，金門的定位一直是兩岸的和平島。我先給你簡介一下小三通以後陸客的相關狀況，讓你知道陸客沒有到金門來觀光，對金門的產業影響有多大，現在真的是很慘。民國100年到111年間，小三通入出境的狀況是本席所示的這樣，2019年之後有疫情，疫情前最高一年是200萬人次，其中大陸客在金門創造的產值一年總共最少20億，所以現在陸客蒸發，我們金門一年就損失20億，各行各業其實都滿慘的，因為沒有觀光客。加上最近臺海局勢緊張，臺灣的客人也會覺得好像會危險，所以去的人就相對減少。因此交通部對於金門觀光的相關幫助一定要加強一點，這是第一個。","第二個是內政部方面，金門有國家公園，相關的民宿業者和小賣店在疫情期間很慘，現在沒有開放陸客觀光，又很慘，等於整個收入都非常低，所以我們當初在金門和金門國家公園相關人員開了一個會，討論是不是這個部分要比照疫情期間，看觀光客來多少，不是很多錢啦，大概幾百萬吧？有關國家公園的部分是不是可以比照減免租金，這已經送到內政部，內政部也核了，下一個單位是財政部。內政部已經核了嘛！院長這邊是不是儘快幫我們核一下？內政部應該可以講一下，內政部瞭解這個事情吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：等一下請內政部說明一下。但委員剛剛那個標題是對的──「陸客不來」，他是主動不來，不是被動不能來。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，我等一下跟你講為什麼，大家想想看怎麼解決。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝陳委員，您剛剛提到金門國家公園裡面的一些招租戶租金減免的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：對！"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在會依據財政部所說的，就是它原來的租賃貸款裡面如果有約定減租條款或是按照法制作業的話，就可以訂定減免的規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們想辦法啦！這個部分請院長也去想辦法，現在各行各業實在都很慘，至少政府可以做的是國家公園這個部分可以幫忙。","現在來講為什麼陸客不來。就是你也知道，我也不希望這個事情發生在金門，但它就是發生了，也很不幸，就是0214的事件──有2個大陸漁民因為船隻翻覆，之後大體就留在金門。現在這個事情就一直沒解決，不瞞您說，我去問得很清楚，因為馬祖不是有開放踩線團，很快就要開放了。會來啦！下去就來了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：會來，下次來。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，肯定。然後我剛剛去參加海峽論壇，有去請教相關事宜，我說我是金門立委，我是希望金門開放觀光，但就因為0214的事情沒有解決。我也不希望這兩件事情掛在一起，說真的，我超不希望當初這件事情為什麼要發生在金門，金門和大陸的關係一直相當良好，發生這個事情我們大家也很遺憾，但就是沒有解決。另外還包括我們有一個金門鄉親迷航到大陸去，那天也說可以帶家屬去看，所以我也會找時間過去。但現在是這樣子，這件事情沒有解決，我們金門就沒有辦法開放陸客觀光。因為也127天了，之前我在質詢前任陳建仁院長的時候，陳院長是說，對於發生溺斃事件感到遺憾，臺灣是民主法治國家，檢察官依證據偵查辦理後才能知道真相，該道歉就道歉，該賠償就賠償。卓院長，這是陳建仁院長說的，你們的立場是一樣的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一件重大的事件，陳院長已經做過這樣的指示，我認為海委會也是朝這個方向在做很多的溝通，即使到現在或許還存在一些問題，但我深刻地不希望因為個案的事件影響到未來雙方的繼續交流和發展。"],["陳委員玉珍：很多事情就是小事情的積累，小事情沒有解決，就會造成互相認為你怎樣、我怎樣、你怎樣、我怎樣，結果惡意螺旋就上來了。所以我們要慢慢你沒有怎樣、我沒有怎樣、你是好的、我是好的……"],["卓院長榮泰：海委會一直在努力促進雙方的距離……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道，海委會的努力我也知道，現在就是您的態度和陳院長是一樣的，那我想請問您右邊這一位，部長，現在已經127天了，你還要調查多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個案件目前就是在送鑑定、在釐清死因……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道！你上一任部長我就問他了，他就說在送鑑定，現在已經……"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在還在鑑定中。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問還要鑑定多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是希望鑑定單位能夠儘速。"],["陳委員玉珍：儘速是多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為是專家鑑定，我也沒辦法……"],["陳委員玉珍：你告訴我已經鑑定多久了？你鑑定什麼我告訴你，你知道鑑定什麼嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：鑑定肇事原因跟釐清……"],["陳委員玉珍：鑑定就是說，這兩個船碰撞嘛！對不對？這樣碰撞，不管是什麼原因碰撞，然後它翻覆，去鑑定這個事情，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是由金門地檢的檢察官偵辦中……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道，那已經鑑定……"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是由檢察官來委託……"],["陳委員玉珍：從事情發生到現在，從我開始瞭解送專家鑑定，到現在好幾個月了耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：四個月。"],["陳委員玉珍：四個月，院長都說了，要鑑定多久啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們要尊重檢察官跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，我也尊重，問題這是重大矚目案件，這涉及公益案件啊！總是不能鑑定到明年、後年、再後年吧！鑑定到下一任總統嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想檢察官這部分他會依法來處理，那……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道會依法處理啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：鑑定機關這部分會妥為鑑定……"],["陳委員玉珍：即便在法院鑑定，也是有一個時間的吧？一個月、兩個月、三個月、五個月，還是半年、還是兩年？你總要有一個時間吧！我不相信這種鑑定機關給的時間是……你們給他的時間是永無止限的啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這……"],["陳委員玉珍：多久？那你瞭解一下好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經鑑定多久了，連院長都說已經四個月，而且它還影響到整個金門的發展，鑑定結果怎麼樣我們不會去那個嘛！對不對？因為專家會去鑑定，總不能鑑定三年、五年吧！太久了啦！部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個意見我們會轉達給……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是轉達嘛！院長，您是不是也覺得太久了？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個能夠釐清事實……"],["陳委員玉珍：釐清事實當然啊！有永無止境的釐清事實嗎？鑑定五年嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：海事的鑑定是不是有它的複雜性，而且專家學者……"],["陳委員玉珍：就一條船碰到另外一條船，我們律師在那裡，大律師，我們國防部長，一般你們的鑑定有要鑑定到三年、五年的嗎？專業律師在那裡，一般鑑定要那麼久嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是讓……"],["陳委員玉珍：我也尊重專家鑑定，但是我不相信……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們尊重專家鑑定……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為它影響到整個……因為這件事情沒有一個解決，金門……我也不願意，我跟你們說，我也不願意這樣子，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然我們也是希望鑑定能夠……"],["陳委員玉珍：大律師，我們的國防部長，一般鑑定可以進入到已經三個月，四個月了，是要鑑定多久呢？以你的專家經驗，你打過無數官司。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告兩點，第一點，個案的鑑定長短與否，要看這個案子它留存的相關證據，然後它的情況，然後他們要判斷的這些個別的事……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是一條船碰到另外一條船，那兩條船現在都在金門。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我沒有辦法去講說一定要鑑定多久……"],["陳委員玉珍：你打官司的經驗有沒有鑑定五年的，你告訴我，或是三年的，你的經驗。"],["顧部長立雄：就我個人過去擔任律師的經驗，應該不至於會鑑定這麼久，這是第一點。第二點，個案的偵辦……"],["陳委員玉珍：要鑑定一年嗎？也不用吧？"],["顧部長立雄：個案的偵辦一定要尊重，一定要尊重……"],["陳委員玉珍：這點我也尊重，我的意思是說，我問的問題每次都是現在進度怎麼樣，他都說在鑑定，好幾個月了，大律師，對不起，部長，謝謝您的寶貴經驗。沒有那麼久的啦！拜託，加快速度，因為這是涉及重大公益、重大的金門發展。院長，所以也請您……我們不是要去影響它到底要怎麼結果嘛！總是效率要好一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，會後我請部長去瞭解一下鑑定到目前的程度，以及未來它可能的時間，抓出一個時間點，我們共同來往那個時間點努力。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。院長，我們下去就要修財政收支劃分法，我想您自己也在說這個部分的話，你們院有要提出院版嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們院版就是現在的版本。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們不提出新的院版嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就照這個來把它做一些更合理的討論，是可以的，但是希望照這個討論……"],["陳委員玉珍：合理的討論是可以？好。我們離島有三個縣市，以前有300億的離島建設基金，您知道嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：以前是說這個就一直用、一直用、可以用，那現在你們中央的政策變成是用多少補多少，現在一年只剩下9億給三個縣市來分，你知道嗎？以110年來講，澎湖10萬的人，他們分了83億，我們金門14萬人，只分了42億，這樣有公平嗎？院長，這樣有公平嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是會把它補……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，我先問你啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且計算方式……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，我先問你，這樣有沒有公平啦？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關財政收支劃分法，我們對於離島的部分，第一個，菸酒稅的部分，我們都沒有把它加入到基準財政收入額裡面……"],["陳委員玉珍：菸酒稅，我們……因為時間到了，我們回財政……"],["莊部長翠雲：然後土地面積都加倍計算。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，我們回財政委員會繼續講啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：新的計算方式，這個再跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第56位陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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獎金1萬,121年是通報三件獎金3萬。"},{"start":74.076,"end":103.32,"text":"在之前的比較多,那我手上還沒有一個數字,那如果會後有...那您看部長,那您看這個拍下這些公務船啊、科研船啊,這個這幾年有沒有增加這個趨勢?通報的這個趨勢?沒有,反而降低。反而降低齁?我剛剛講就是說111年,111年比較多,111年以後只有三屆,112年只有一屆。那院長您了解說為什麼這個前件會在這裡浮起來呢?院長。"},{"start":106.395,"end":121.268,"text":"請國防部還在瞭解這整個過程跟他實際上的為什麼這個原因?跟委員報告,我們按照我們相關的情節手段已經有掌握相關的這個潛艦的動態,然後在中線以西,以弧線的方向。講慢一點大聲一點聽不清楚。"},{"start":121.607,"end":146.61,"text":"在中線乙溪以浮潛的方式來進行,那相關其他,我們因為涉及到一些我們今天手段,我想,細節的部分……我們知道偵查手段,你知道原因嗎?根據我請教這個軍事專家的結論,他是這樣說,他說這個臺灣海峽這個中線乙溪這個地方因為是潛灘,比較危險,所以這個潛艦經過那個地方大概都用浮航的方式來進行。"},{"start":148.052,"end":174.322,"text":"這是我請教軍事專家的。是,那個地方相當的在只有幾十米而已。啊?比較淺啊?幾十公尺而已。所以如果,如果這是我們請教軍事專家齁,如果確實這樣子大概也要把資訊公開,因為這個大概有,就不是怎樣的說,非常的好像是什麼兵凶戰危啊,不要弄到這麼好像很緊張齁。那院長,請問您了解金門嗎?我去過金門。去過金門幾趟?"},{"start":178.334,"end":205.467,"text":"兩三趟吧兩趟啦我公開記錄是有兩趟我看到是有兩趟因為我知道您甚至也是民意代表出身嘛所以一定也是以這個民意民意為依歸也解決人民痛苦也是大概你從以前開始擔任民意代表一樣的好到現在擔任這個行政院長我們看到媒體報導您到金門過兩次了一次是2018年的12月擔任行政院的秘書長陪同我們現在的賴總統那時候的行政院長去看"},{"start":208.428,"end":215.171,"text":"另外一次是很早以前2006年6月當任總統府秘書長的時候陪同陳水扁總統去前線看防務的整備這兩次應該都還有印象"},{"start":223.767,"end":247.942,"text":"有印象,那您看看金門之前是實行這個戰地政務,在民國81年以前實行戰地政務,11月7日又解除戰地政務,比台灣解除戒嚴室76年晚了5年。那您看從解除戰地政務到現在這個民主政治這個發展,那開始全面性的建設。您知道這一段的這個時候金門跟台灣,因為您現在貴為行政院長不是"},{"start":249.019,"end":250.801,"text":"您看這個跟台灣其他縣市這個歷史軌跡你有了解嗎?"},{"start":261.471,"end":284.031,"text":"我一直很希望能夠再到金門去,看看金門那個很有特色的建築物。以及經過戰地政務解除之後,我覺得它的社會風情有相當大的改變。人跟人之間可以更緊密的接觸,而且產業、觀光也有跟以前不一樣的發展的趨勢。戰地政務時期遺留下一些歷史問題,不知道院長有沒有了解?"},{"start":284.571,"end":298.561,"text":"那個也是一個歷史的記憶,我覺得那個保存下來對金門來講就是一個資產。對,除了是記憶以外當然是觀光資產。事實上還有幾樣是跟人民權利有相關的。我先讓您先有一個概念。最重要在金門來講,長年不斷的陳情問題大概就是土地的問題。"},{"start":302.364,"end":302.564,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":328.715,"end":328.875,"text":"韓國109年以前"},{"start":344.008,"end":367.194,"text":"但是那時候還要大家花錢買回原來祖先留下來的土地那是到109年以前那截止但是問題是國軍的這個撤軍不是一天撤完他是慢慢慢慢撤到現在事實上還有慢慢有一些營區慢慢在撤出當中那請問如果在109年以後撤出了這些營區那也有百姓的土地可是因為我們離島建制條約的時間已經到了購回土地的時間是109年後來就沒有這個法源依據了"},{"start":373.195,"end":391.227,"text":"那現在民眾要怎麼辦呢?跟委員報告一下,這個就是涉及到那個離島建設條例的第九條。對對,第九條。所以我想委員應該都很清楚,它是有一個公告期限。對對對。如果在公告期限內就是可以申請以當年的公告地價來購買。"},{"start":392.128,"end":418.067,"text":"沒錯沒錯那當初那個軍方說這前面都知道齁就是軍方說因為他常回一個公文比如說現在還在使用比如說去年我們還在使用所以你沒有辦法申請購回因為還是屬於軍方在使用的營區那這幾年軍方有一些營區也慢慢撤出了那百姓開始要求說那我們的土地可以還給我們的那可是109年已經過了那不然我們國防部長你是大律師你看這個有沒有什麼不用修法的解決方式"},{"start":420.414,"end":435.571,"text":"您知道我的意思嗎?就是法源是到109年但是土地是在109年軍方才撤出才開始讓民眾申請購回那在這之前購回的時候申請的時候軍方說對不起我們還在使用你不能購回"},{"start":438.466,"end":450.665,"text":"委員我的理解好像是在103年國安會修法的時候,當時就已經檢討了沒有公用需求的這一個你再說一次,大聲一點就行"},{"start":451.755,"end":478.421,"text":"在103年國安會立法修正離島條例第9條條文的時候就已經檢討就是說沒有公用需求的部分就已經都交出來了那事實上是很多現在是慢慢測現在還有營區是有慢慢的交出來在109年到現在113年還是有這樣的情形這個事情要怎麼處理這一類的情形您回去研究一下國安部長也是法律專家像這個時間109年已經過了"},{"start":481.502,"end":508.287,"text":"但是事實上軍方現在撤出的這是第一點那第二點還有早期因為基本上有很多島內生活很多到南洋去我們叫做羅歡那現在這些鄉親旅居南洋的這個僑親資訊不了解所以錯過這些時間有沒有什麼彌補的方法有沒有什麼購回的權利您了解嗎比如我們歸定到109年但是他們在南洋可能慢慢的才收到訊息"},{"start":509.207,"end":531.174,"text":"委員我的了解好像是後來在110年的時候那個國安會好像還是有在邀請金門跟連江縣政府包括其他內政部啊財政部國產署單位研商然後內政部的有認為就是說離島建設條例的第九條的過回規定呢"},{"start":531.374,"end":537.18,"text":"我知道我知道我也問過國產署這個問題他說如果這樣子也會有這個情形產生嘛但是我說的不是全部的工地我說的是至少針對軍方原來這些營區嘛我也問過"},{"start":553.557,"end":580.08,"text":"那個就是國產署這個問題以前我也問過109年之前我就問過了他說這樣會到不確定性那開發上土地上有很多各方面的那如果遇到這個情形你們研究一下今天也沒有辦法這邊要到答案但是也要想辦法這個問題民眾這個問題要怎麼解決啦委員其實109年截止之後軍方土地才做出對軍方土地才離開在之前民眾申請嘛那接著軍方現在撤了109年之後民眾是不可能申請的"},{"start":580.96,"end":605.827,"text":"對,因為沒有法源依據本來就是民眾的是因為那時候之前申請的時候軍方說我們還在使用還在使用那理論上如果在台灣地區哪有這種事情我們的土地就是我們的土地還可以用金門地方跟軍方關係比較好一般軍方說怎樣好大家就是協商一下看怎麼樣但是現在法源依據就沒有了想要看是不是怎麼樣來修法來解決這樣的問題"},{"start":607.948,"end":635.75,"text":"這個你們回去研究一下,這個是我跟委員報告我想回去再瞭解一下有沒有您講的109年之後才釋出的這一個就是在那時候申請的這一個部分對您瞭解一下好不好因為有接到不少這樣的陳情案另外一個還有金門這個土地在推動基礎建設的時候會用到私有地那沒有足夠的補償金所以金門很多政府就是用公共設施的時候土地都沒有被補償那原因"},{"start":637.671,"end":660.768,"text":"早年,院長您了解金門的這個政治組織嗎?您了解嗎?現在當然是以前啦,就是在這個,您了解台灣省對不對?就是管這個台灣澎湖嘛那金門是被福建省管,您知道吧?知道嗎?我們福建省就管金門麻竹,還有淪陷的地區管不到的,來"},{"start":661.288,"end":661.428,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚"},{"start":688.956,"end":711.464,"text":"包括到現在是到了採劃法這個後面還會再跟您講比如說早年因為台灣省那他不管那個水嗎那個自來水的水用水的水他管水那台灣省那以後這些都全部歸給中央去管嗎您了解嗎那金門嗎金門以前就不是台灣省那這個台灣省也沒有以後你知道歸誰管嗎你知道歸誰管嗎在金門"},{"start":716.738,"end":741.863,"text":"是不是縣政府管?對,歸金門縣政府管。包括不是只有水,以前電也是。以前我們是金電,金門電力公司,後來當然歸給台電,水現在是金門自來水廠自己管。還有這個包括農林漁牧,像台灣有這個什麼林務局,台灣省的嘛,後來變成中央,反正就農林漁牧,我們全部都自己管。我們金門是一個小國家,"},{"start":742.583,"end":743.003,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":767.878,"end":768.278,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍﹚"},{"start":787.188,"end":787.848,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":808.256,"end":824.547,"text":"財政部借錢,那因為我們是說這個經濟部要做的是水利署要做嘛齁,那是水利署要出錢,所以說啊不然你金門先生你先做啦齁,做了以後我們錢還給你,他說沒有錢啊,沒有錢怎麼辦啊,沒有錢跟財政部借啊,我們就跟財政部借錢。財政部我們是不是跟你借的錢?"},{"start":826.509,"end":827.49,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍﹚"},{"start":851.072,"end":857.659,"text":"金門縣是跟我地方建設基金借了10億來謝謝我讓院長了解一下我讓院長了解現在的情形好那現在這個地方建設基金他們說要結編了嘛就是要結束對不對"},{"start":868.53,"end":869.21,"text":"已經結束了。"},{"start":892.362,"end":894.525,"text":"跟委員說明 跟委員說明 跟委員說明"},{"start":912.325,"end":923.31,"text":"對,金門縣政府是跟地方建設基金借錢,那借款期限是5年,那在今年的113年1月已經到期了,那就應該把它還嘛,那目前來說應該還這次對,還有兩億是沒有還嘛,那我們現在跟說經濟部拜託錢來,要還給財政部,那為什麼經濟部怎麼說兩億是?"},{"start":935.325,"end":951.148,"text":"我不是行政院長對不對?這是你們自己中央政府的事情。經濟部什麼時候要換監?你不了解齁?你了解一下喔?是不是反過來?不然這個財政部說要扣我們的什麼統籌分配款。財政部剛剛有跟我講了,因為我問的問題很多,我還會跟他再問,但是院長,"},{"start":962.887,"end":978.442,"text":"委員因為其實這是兩件事情當然經濟部要當時有承諾說要給予這個水價的一個差價補貼嘛那也給了大概有70%大概在111年已經給金門縣政府差價補貼嘛重點是目前還有30還沒有給那所以這個部分"},{"start":985.269,"end":1001.481,"text":"可是跟地方建設基金借的錢,我們是依照借款。我知道我知道,應該還你們的,可是這是經濟部的事情,你不要在我面前左手右手自己打架,院長你回去想要怎麼處理。這個本來是你們的事情,我們是幫你做,對吧?我們是幫你做,這水不就是你們的事情嗎?我聽懂了,這兩筆錢。"},{"start":1003.743,"end":1014.473,"text":"沒有啦我跟你講回歸到底這個水的事情是歸誰管歸我金門縣政府出錢喔這個經濟部財政部這個兩筆錢來來再不要講不要講說我來報告院長再不要講這個錢光這個工我們幫你做欸照財政部講這是兩筆錢歸地方建設基金的還有就是水價補貼的是兩筆錢我們就用那個補貼的錢來還給他嘛"},{"start":1025.584,"end":1034.176,"text":"啊不然你叫我們去...因為本來這個錢就是...院長院長你回去了解清楚你回到癥結點齁回到最高的癥結點就是這個事情應該歸誰管這些錢應該誰出"},{"start":1038.075,"end":1057.517,"text":"當初經濟部承諾說他會給嘛,我們先電啦,我們也沒錢跟財政部借。我知道我知道。是啊,你站在中間嘛,你站在這裡看,左右都是你管的,你回去想想辦法。我必須站在中間兩邊才能平衡啦。是是是,但是我們不應該站在裡頭,那是你們重要的事情啊。"},{"start":1058.658,"end":1059.399,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":1073.857,"end":1091.937,"text":"他是這樣跟我講的,要還嘛,叫我去跟經營部講,那沒關係,我也不要在這裡跟你爭,因為我還有好多問題,你去了解一下,我要回到最源頭,最源頭,最源頭,這個事情歸誰?歸中央嘛,所以幹嘛歸我金門縣政府,要去出錢做這些事情。好,那不過我要跟你講一下齁,倒是齁,"},{"start":1093.158,"end":1093.298,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":1111.817,"end":1135.828,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1135.928,"end":1135.948,"text":"好,這個..."},{"start":1152.476,"end":1174.342,"text":"中國跟臺灣兩邊這個雖然社會制度不同對於這個主權的意見還是分歧但是對人民的生活不應該把它當作一個籌碼來對對對所以我們希望善意的對待你希望要選還是源源不絕啦我也跟你一樣希望兩岸的領導人應該有機會有善意去面對好如何改善人民的社會保障的和平"},{"start":1175.862,"end":1194.002,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1195.109,"end":1220.803,"text":"經濟那個我們這個政府我們中央政府這幾年來吼就合定的這個有關的這個相關的這個建設我先跟你講一下小山通路課這個部分吼為什麼談到金門大分都會談到兩岸吼從民國大概90幾年到100多年這十幾年吶不管是哪一位總統吼從這個陳水扁總統呃馬英九總統到蔡英文總統任內吼中央所合定的這個相關的這個建設計畫裡頭金門的定位一直是"},{"start":1221.423,"end":1221.643,"text":"﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":1228.499,"end":1229.159,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":1258.436,"end":1258.596,"text":"﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":1283.744,"end":1303.649,"text":"觀光的這個幫助,可能要加強一點,一定要加強一點,第一個。第二個,內政部方面我們有一些國家公園,我們要求一些民宿業者,或者這些旅店,就是一些小賣店,因為這個疫情其實很慘,現在沒有開放觀光客,沒有開放入客,又很慘。"},{"start":1304.469,"end":1331.313,"text":"等於是整個收入都非常低。所以我們當初在金門跟這個金門這個國家公園有開一個會討論就是說是不是這個部分按比照這個疫情期間看觀光客來多少大概大概總共大概不是很多錢幾百萬吧是不是這個部分比照來減降低這個減點租金有關國家公園的相關這部分這個部分已經送到我們內政部了吧內政部已經合了下一個的單位是財政部"},{"start":1332.094,"end":1338.74,"text":"內政部是已經和了嗎?那是不是院長這邊是盡快幫我們和一下?內政部應該可以講一下,內政部了解這個事情吧?"},{"start":1339.488,"end":1347.531,"text":"謝謝陳委員您剛所提到金門國家公園裡面的一些招租戶裡面想要租金減免的部分那我們現在就是會依據財政部所說的就是說他原來的租賃貸款裡面如果有約定減租條款或是按照法制作業的話就可以訂定減免的規定"},{"start":1365.558,"end":1379.581,"text":"您們想辦法啦齁,這一個部分請院長也是去想辦法啦齁,這個實在現在各行各業都很慘啦齁,那至少政府可以做的部分是國家公園這個部分可以幫忙啦齁,那你再想想看為什麼陸客不來齁,就是齁,你也知道我也是希望"},{"start":1380.851,"end":1405.586,"text":"我也不希望這個事情發生在金門,但這件事情就是發生了,也很不幸啦,就是0214的事件,就是金門當初那個兩個大陸漁民嘛,他不就是反腐,反腐了以後就大體就留在金門嘛,留在金門現在這個事情就一直沒解決,我不瞞您說,我也去問了很清楚啦,金門的沒有開放,連馬祖不是有開放彩線團,也很快會開放了,沒有會來啦,下去就來了,對很肯定,然後"},{"start":1409.109,"end":1432.384,"text":"我剛去參加海峽論壇,有去請教這個相關事宜。我說,馬祖,因為我是金門立委,我是要金門開放觀光。那要金門開放觀光,但是就是0214的事情沒有解決。我也不希望這件事情掛在一起。我說真的,我真的千不希望他們為什麼當初要這件事情發生在金門。金門跟大陸關係一直是相當的良好。那發生這個事情,我們大家也很遺憾,那就是沒有解決。"},{"start":1432.944,"end":1456.084,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1456.898,"end":1481.214,"text":"陳建林院長的時候那個陳院長是那時候他就說對於發生密閉事件感到遺憾臺灣是這下面都這些都陳院長講的臺灣是民主法治國家檢查關係證據偵查辦理後才能知道真相該道歉就道歉該賠償就賠償這個卓院長這是陳建林院長說您的立場是一樣的嗎"},{"start":1482.555,"end":1500.181,"text":"這是一件重大的事件陳院長已經做過這樣的指示我認為海委會也是朝這個方向在做很多的溝通那即使到現在或許還存在一些問題但是我深刻的不希望因為個案的事件影響到未來雙方的繼續的交流跟發展"},{"start":1500.621,"end":1501.662,"text":"部長現在已經127天了,你要調查多久?"},{"start":1529.199,"end":1553.166,"text":"跟委員報告齁,那這個案件目前就是在送鑑定。我知道,你上一任部長我就問他了,他就說在送鑑定。現在還在鑑定。請問還要鑑定多久?我們是有希望那個鑑定單位能夠禁訴。禁訴是多久?這部分因為設施專家鑑定,我也沒辦法。你告訴我已經鑑定多久了?你鑑定什麼我告訴你啊,你知道鑑定什麼嗎?"},{"start":1554.019,"end":1560.285,"text":"這部分是由那個金門地遣的檢察官偵查?我知道我知道,他已經鑑定100,從事情上那些,從我開始瞭解宋專家現在好幾個月的捏。"},{"start":1578.44,"end":1585.125,"text":"我想這個檢察官這部分他會依法來處理。我知道會應好處理。即便在法院鑑定也是有一個時間的吧。一個月、兩個月、三個月、五個月還是半年還是兩年。"},{"start":1609.351,"end":1631.409,"text":"總要有一個時間吧,我不相信這種鑑定機關給的時間是,你們給他的時間是永無止限的。多久?那你瞭解一下吧,已經鑑定多久了,連院長都說已經4個月,是不是未免,而且他還影響到整個金門的發展。鑑定結果怎麼樣,我們不會去那個嘛,對不對,專家會去鑑定,總不能鑑定3年5年吧。"},{"start":1634.564,"end":1661.513,"text":"這本我們這個意見我們會轉達給不是轉達啦 院長您是不是覺得也是太久了這個能夠釐清事實釐清事實當然啦有永無止境的釐清事實嗎?鎮定五年嗎?海事的鎮定是不是有它的複雜性?而且專家學者就一條船碰到我們律師在那裡一般那個大律師我們國防部長一般你們的鎮定要鎮定到三年五年了嗎?那個專業律師在那裡啊"},{"start":1662.642,"end":1663.489,"text":"一般今天要那麼久嗎?"},{"start":1667.266,"end":1694.251,"text":"我也尊重專家鑑定,但是我不想要這樣,因為這件事情沒有一個解決。我也不願意,我跟你們說,我也不願意這樣子。大律師,我們這個國防部長是這個,一般鑑定可以鑑定到已經三個月、四個月了。是要鑑定多久呢?你看你以你的這個專家經驗,你打破無數官室。跟委員報告兩點,第一點,"},{"start":1695.512,"end":1721.443,"text":"各案的鑑定長短與否要看這個案子他留存的相關的證據然後的情況然後他們要判斷的這些個別的事就是一條船碰到另外一條船這樣子所以我想我沒有辦法去講說你打官司經驗有沒有鑑定個五年的你告訴我三年你的經驗就我個人的"},{"start":1723.164,"end":1730.153,"text":"過去擔任律師的經驗應該不至於會鑑定這麼久。這是第一點。第二點呢,各案的偵辦一定要尊重。一定要尊重鑑定。"},{"start":1740.762,"end":1764.725,"text":"大律師,對不起部長,謝謝您的這個寶貴經驗,沒有那麼久的啦,拜託加快速度,這因為涉及重大公益,重大這個金門的這個發展。好,那這個院長,所以鄭欣也請您,我們不下去影響他到底要什麼結果嘛,總是效率要好一點。我會請部長去了解一下,鑑定到目前的程度,以及未來他可能的時間,抓出一個時間點,讓我們共同來往那個時間點處理。"},{"start":1765.706,"end":1792.049,"text":"好,那那個院長我們下去就要修這個財政收支劃分法嘛。我想您自己也在說這個部分的話,你們院裡要提出院版嗎?我們院版就是現在的版本。現在版就,因為你們不提出新的院版嘛齁。我們想照這個來把它做一些更合理的討論是可以的。合理的討論是可以,好。我們今天,我們離島有三個縣市,以前有300億的這個離島建設基金,您知道嘛。那現在?"},{"start":1792.91,"end":1812.875,"text":"議員長"},{"start":1813.305,"end":1813.425,"text":"謝謝陳醫生委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"154084","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154084","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a7405374fdefd70aa84a337f76c37b5ea00e1aec3d2490a34b5c97df5e7f71b625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"16:33:29 - 16:49:14","影片長度":"00:15:45","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T16:33:29+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T16:49:14+08:00","duration":945,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（16時33分）謝謝院長，首先請卓院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：卓院長好。首先先跟你加油，還有很多很大的挑戰在面前。"],["卓院長榮泰：大家加油！"],["何委員欣純：對於這一次的國會擴權法案，政院已經提出覆議，明天立法院就要進行質詢，不知道卓院長的期待如何？因為之前你曾經指出你比較樂觀。"],["卓院長榮泰：我必須樂觀啊！因為我相信每個委員都是經過選民選上來的，應該都有民主的DNA，都有民主的嚮往，希望透過民主的程序，再讓大院來討論、審視每一個我們認為窒礙難行的條文內容，我覺得這就是一個民主的機會，再次的審視，再次有機會重新看看能不能讓社會也接受，我們來執行起來也沒有窒礙難行。"],["何委員欣純：你說過要透過這個過程讓人民好好知道、理解，民主最寶貴的地方也就在這裡。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["何委員欣純：所以我也希望接下來這兩天立法院有關覆議案的質詢能夠順利，我也希望禮拜五的覆議案能夠成功。"],["卓院長榮泰：還要加油！"],["何委員欣純：我們還必須要再加油，因為還有很大的挑戰在面前。我為什麼會提到這個？因為在國會擴權法案通過之後，監察院也發出嚴正聲明，表示這個法案違反權力分立，也違反目前五權憲法的架構。行政院提出覆議的理由也有提到，這一次國會擴權，啟動調查或依照其他相關法條裡面的要求，會變成清查政府弊案屬於監察院或司法機關的職權範圍，也就是我剛剛說的，這一次的國會擴權法案挑戰了目前五權憲法的權力分立原則……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["何委員欣純：破壞了這樣的原則，所以行政院覆議的理由有提到這件事。我請教院長，你會建議監察院也去釋憲嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這當然是監察院的憲法職權，五院的體制要維持下去，每個院的職責要非常清楚，而且互相的搭配，互相不去踩線。行政院對立法院負責，但是我們還有司法權、監察權，各司不同的憲法職務，尤其是司法權，任何人都不是法官，只有法官、檢察官才是司法官，他們所做的事情就單純是司法人該做的事情，而不是拿到這裡用表決的方式，決定一個人該不該被移送或一個人該不該被處罰鍰，這不是用表決的方式來達成的。"],["何委員欣純：還有一個人能不能請律師，這個也很重要，這關乎人權。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["何委員欣純：我的意思是說，對於這一次的覆議案，當然我們希望樂觀看待它能夠過關，這是人民的意志，人民成功展現相當大的民意。如果不能過關，接下來的下一步就是釋憲，當然啦，行政院有權力，至於監察院，你剛剛說了，本於其職責，那是它的權責，是不是要提出釋憲，我覺得多方提出釋憲也不失為一個實踐臺灣民主的過程，對不對？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：也表示我們在遵守憲法、捍衛憲法，維護這個五院體制。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。院長，我們還必須要再加油。","接下來我關心的是之前其他委員也曾經關心過的，不僅僅是人要有食安，寵物也有食安，寵物的食安在現階段受到廣泛的注目，過去曾經有狗飼料出問題，最近則是貓飼料出問題，院長你知道這件事嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，大家把寵物當成生活的陪伴，對於他們的照顧就應該要多一點，所以我們認為動保法裡面的專章要儘快的……"],["何委員欣純：對，你曾經回答說未來動保法要有專章來規定寵物的管理，現在還沒有動保法專章，行政院院版還沒有送到立院，年底嘛，對不對？在還沒有的情況之下，現在貓飼料出問題了，我們如何管？上一次所謂的倍力跟貓侍都出現了飼料上的危機，有飼主反映貓咪吃完後出現低血鉀或身體不適等狀況，這個事件是不是請陳部長能簡單報告一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們應該有行政措施可以救濟。"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員關心有關於寵物食品的議題，未來我們對於整個食品會有專法，專法包括整個食品從進口以後的追溯，整個系統要有完整的追溯才能夠處理。現階段，我們現在針對有關於飼料本身的病源、微生物及有害物質，有一個鑑定方法跟標準……"],["何委員欣純：有一個鑑定的方法、有標準？"],["陳部長駿季：對，有這樣的標準的話，我們就會查核，過往一年大概只查100件左右，從今年開始，現在就已經開始了，我們會加倍到300到500件，到現在為止已經抽了大概一百十多件，到目前為止……"],["何委員欣純：所以要加倍抽檢、抽查？"],["陳部長駿季：大概3倍。"],["何委員欣純：3倍以上，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：請問一下，我剛剛講的那個已經發生的事件，你們如何處理？第二個，聽說飼主自行檢驗飼料，有驗出三聚氰胺跟黃麴毒素，這個有相關法規嗎？有相關標準嗎？我們可以處理嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有標準，但是因為您說的那個部分是他在FB……"],["何委員欣純：有去瞭解嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有去瞭解，但是他在FB裡面只是PO說有檢測到本身，因為這都有相關的最低容許量。我也跟委員報告，我們檢測了一百多件，所有相關的寵物飼料食品都沒有超過任何的安全標準。"],["何委員欣純：到目前為止，你們抽檢的都沒有超過？"],["陳部長駿季：對，原來那些疑似引起低血鉀症的飼料經過我們的檢查，他的飼料也沒問題，我們也召開了專家會議，專家會議說……"],["何委員欣純：你們檢驗的結果跟專家會議的結果，第一個當然要公告周知，第二個，你們有跟這位飼主聯繫嗎？有去查清楚、弄清楚雙方之間的落差到底在哪裡嗎？因為我們官方這邊檢驗出來是說沒有問題，但是飼主卻說有問題。如果我們沒有辦法把它釐清楚、說明清楚的話，資訊的落差或者是檢驗結果不一樣，會造成所有貓飼主們人心惶惶，讓大家不安心，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我瞭解，我跟委員說明，針對當初那個飼主本身的低血鉀報告正本，我們召開了專家會議，專家會議沒有辦法排除任何的可能，他們的結論是有可能是因為飼料造成，因為飼料裡面鉀的含量是有超過標準的，但是相對的還有其他的原因，所以綜合判斷低血鉀症是由非常多因素造成的，不能完全歸責於某一……"],["何委員欣純：不能歸責於可能是飼料出問題，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得對這個部分應該要更用力的說明跟澄清。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們……"],["何委員欣純：必須要讓飼主們安心，因為在現今臺灣社會，我相信不分年齡層，關於寵物這個議題，我們在動保法等相關法律的規範，每一條生命都是無價的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們也希望我們的政府能夠積極、有效甚至能夠更專業的來管理寵物產業，包括牠的食品，包括其他附屬的一些東西。我覺得這個問題已經談了好多年，政府可不可以加快腳步？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這也是為什麼我們要在動保法裡面有一個寵物食品的專章，特別去做相關的規範。"],["何委員欣純：部長，我要提醒你，本來說要有一個寵物的管理專法，在你兩年前成立寵物管理科的時候就在講了，可是拖了兩年，到現在發現不行了，我們等不到專法，那你說要在動保法裡面有一個專責……"],["陳部長駿季：專章。"],["何委員欣純：但是你又說要到年底，可不可以儘快？"],["陳部長駿季：會儘快。"],["何委員欣純：因為要趁這個機會建立相關的寵物管理制度，包括牠的食品、相關的附屬產品，我覺得這關乎千千萬萬在養寵物的人。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["何委員欣純：大家都非常關心我們寵物的健康跟相關的事務，所以這個很重要，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在下個會期一定會提出來。"],["何委員欣純：在下個會期提出？"],["陳部長駿季：一定會提出來。"],["何委員欣純：你說下個會期會提出來，我們就等著您提出來，我們好好的來討論。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：因為根據我們農業部的報告，寵物相關產業的產值高達五、六百億，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：而且相關的從業人員也很多，養寵物的人更多，甚至臺灣在這一方面，就我知道的，在中小企業裡面就寵物相關產品的產業鏈也非常的完整，如果我們可以制定好寵物管理的專章，也把管理的制度建置好，那我們是不是甚至可以進一步的跟國際接軌，然後協助這些廠商外銷出口？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們就是朝這樣的一個目標去前進，在法源的部分會努力。"],["何委員欣純：好，部長，再拜託你好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，沒問題。"],["何委員欣純：接下來我要問院長，講到產業，最近大家都在談AI、半導體，真的是很夯、很好喔！尤其我們部長也是來自相關的產業，但是我還是必須跟院長請命，傳產、中小企業不管是業者或是勞工朋友都很辛苦，都在努力生存。我上次也跟你提過，這兩年多以來傳統產業的景氣一直很不好，甚至到今年年底會不會好，大家也不知道，看不到春天。這部分，我們政府有什麼樣的因應機制？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道委員所在的選區─臺中我們傳產的重鎮，其中也不乏很多隱形冠軍在裡面……"],["何委員欣純：對。也很多。"],["卓院長榮泰：他們支撐了臺灣很長時間的經濟發展。現在我們朝高科技發展的情況底下，我們一直講說數位轉型也不能忽略了這些中小微企業跟傳統產業，我們對高科技的很多補助是因應高科技整個快速發展，但是回頭來我們要讓傳產不會失去它的競爭力，甚至把數位科技引進傳產的管理上面來，這一點我想國發會、國科會，還有我們經濟部都有很多的作為。"],["何委員欣純：院長，你講得很好，但是我要提醒一件事情，不是所有的傳統產業、中小企業都能夠數位化、高科技化……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，瞭解，那需要很多的投入。"],["何委員欣純：我們要非常仔細的去盤點。你剛剛提到我來自臺中的選區，臺中市的機械業、汽車五金零件、手工具零件，還有工具機等等，並不是它的每一個製程裡面的每一個環節都可以數位化、自動化，在不行的情況之下，我們政府又該如何去幫忙他們？所以，我認為數位化是一個趨勢，智能化是一個趨勢，但是那是要稍有規模以上的公司、工廠才可能負擔得起，那不是我們政府用喊的就有辦法做到的。我們政府要協助他們，也要公司、工廠有資本、有能力再投入，這個投入是一筆錢，這一筆錢要如何再由政府來協助他們，這個才是重點。","第一個是資源的成本問題；第二個，人的問題。在傳產各行各業的每一個製程裡面，我也希望自動化、智能化，但是系統整合的人在哪裡？我們有沒有去盤點過？我們過去常常在喊，要讓傳統產業邁向高科技、數位化，所以要工業4.0，但是我不知道部長跟主委知不知道，全臺灣這麼多的中小企業裡面，傳統產業的各行各業，甚至加工體系的每一個環節裡面，到底有多少可以如您所說的可以做得到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請主委回答。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告一下，這幾個企業我最近都開始在接觸，以工具機來講，它最大的困境是規模小，很多在10億以下，它面對國外在國際競爭的時候遇到困難，所以我們現在從幾個方面著手。第一個是從效率面，它的資本效率方面，我們希望協助他們成立控股公司，就是公司可以保留原樣，但是在後臺運作可控股。我舉個例子，很多螺絲廠我們進去盤點，它有兩萬多顆螺絲，但是一個機器用不了那麼多螺絲，是因為它們不懂得效率去共用零件，所以我們就會協助它共用零件，然後共用採購、共用資本。另外，在創新創意方面，我們會引導創新創業的人才，進到這個地方來幫忙它做自動化的部分。這個是由國發基金……"],["何委員欣純：主委，我知道政府有這些措施，但是我要求你去盤點一下，政府的措施到底有幫助到多少你所說的中小企業？以你剛剛講的工具機為主的話，有多少間公司，而這些公司在整體的比例又是占多少？我為什麼會提醒你這一點？我這個頁面最重要的一句話，中小企業數百萬家，中小企業傳統產業照顧在地的就業人口、在地的勞工超過九百萬人，這些人背後都代表一個家庭，這些家庭都仰賴這些在地的傳統產業、中小企業甚至微型加工廠、微型產業，我希望政府要照顧得到他們，看得到他們。拜託。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。也跟委員報告，我跟他們有約，這個會期一結束，我們就會在中部開始密集的接觸，做進一步的盤點。"],["何委員欣純：好。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第55號陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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相關產品的一個產業鏈也非常的完整"},{"start":619.255,"end":633.588,"text":"那如果說我們可以把這個寵物管理的這個專章如果制定好管理的制度也把它建制好那我們是不是甚至可以進一步的跟國際接軌協助這些廠商外銷出口"},{"start":634.304,"end":640.989,"text":"對,我們就是朝這樣的一個目標去前進。是不是?好,部長再拜託你好不好講。接下來我要問院長,講到產業,我們最近大家都在談AI半導體很好,尤其我們部長也是來自相關的產業,但是我必須還是要跟院長請命,"},{"start":656.22,"end":657.501,"text":"我知道委員所在的選區臺中"},{"start":686.135,"end":686.195,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":709.963,"end":720.513,"text":"因應高科技整個發展的快速但是回頭來我們要讓傳產不會失去它的競爭力甚至把科技引進數位引進到這個傳產的管理上面來那這一點我想"},{"start":722.244,"end":743.659,"text":"國發會、國科會、還有我們經濟部都有很多的作為。來,院長,你講得很好。但是我要提醒一件事情。不是所有的傳統產業、中小企業都能夠數位化、高科技化。我們要非常仔細地去盤點。你剛剛提到我來自的選區台中。台中市的這個機械業、汽車、五金融、"},{"start":744.36,"end":764.002,"text":"﹚"},{"start":765.323,"end":785.773,"text":"我認為數位化是一個趨勢,智能化是一個趨勢,但是那是要稍有規模以上的公司、工廠才可能負擔得起,那不是政府用花就有辦法做到的。我們政府要協助他們,也要公司、工廠他們有資本、有能力再投入,這投入是一筆錢,這一筆錢如何再由政府來協助他們,這個才是重點。第一個是"},{"start":794.117,"end":817.837,"text":"之遠的成本的問題。第二個,人的問題。各行各業在傳產的每一個製程裡面,我也希望自動化、智能化。但是呢,系統整合的人在哪裡?我們有沒有去盤點過?我們過去常常在喊要讓傳統產業邁向高科技、數位化,所以呢要工業4.0。但是,"},{"start":819.739,"end":820.099,"text":"我請主委回答"},{"start":839.315,"end":863.564,"text":"跟委員報告一下,因為這些企業我最近都開始有在接觸以工具機來講,它最大的困境是規模小,很多在10億以下它面對國際競爭的時候,它遇到困難所以我們現在從幾個方面,第一個是從效率面它的資本效率,就是我們希望協助他們成立控股公司就是公司可以保留原樣,但是在後台運作可控股我舉個例子"},{"start":864.264,"end":886.787,"text":"很多大廠、很多螺絲廠我們進去盤點它有2萬多顆螺絲但是一個機器用不了那麼多螺絲是因為他們不懂得效率去共用零件那我們就會協助他共用零件然後共用採購共用資本另外我們在創新創業會引導創新創業的人才進到這個地方來幫忙做它的自動化的部分"},{"start":887.447,"end":914.64,"text":"主委我知道政府有這些措施但是我會要求你去盤點一下政府的這些措施到底呢有幫助到多少的中小企業您所說的以你剛剛講的工具機為主的話有多少間公司而這些的公司的在整體的比例又是佔多少我會提醒你這一點是什麼我這個頁面最重要的一句話中小企業數百萬家就業人口因為中小企業傳統產業照顧"},{"start":916.561,"end":917.682,"text":"我希望政府要照顧得到他們"}]}},{"id":"154083","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154083","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529ad5252f0e4e828ccb84a337f76c37b5ea00e1aec3d2490a34bb7f1b8e8d3d49e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"15:46:46 - 16:17:45","影片長度":"00:30:59","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T15:46:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T16:17:45+08:00","duration":1859,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（15時47分）謝謝主席，有請行政院長、經濟部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢，也請經濟部。"],["卓院長榮泰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，院長午安，一整天的備詢辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：還好、還好，謝謝，謝謝！。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席身為年輕的國會議員，始終懷抱理想，期待我們的政府有功能、社會有良知，人民能夠獲得公平正義。薪水、物價跟房價是當代臺灣人民最在乎的民生指標，這個院長應該不會反對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天就針對經濟發展、分配正義、居住正義來做一下綜合討論，期待政府能夠提出好的表現跟回答。首先我要請問院長跟部長，涓滴效應是什麼意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起。"],["牛委員煦庭：涓滴效應，你有聽過這個名詞嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：涓……"],["郭部長智輝：邊……"],["牛委員煦庭：英文叫trickle-down，沒關係，部長可以說明。"],["郭部長智輝：邊際效應嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：邊際效應……"],["牛委員煦庭：不是邊際啦！是涓滴，下滲經濟學，聽過沒有？好，沒關係，我解釋給你聽。涓滴效應或稱下滲經濟學，是講說政策上，政府的政策側重大企業，透過給大企業，不管是減稅也好，或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠，期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展，透過讓一部分的人先成功，然後期待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富，從而間接地達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情，這個概念叫做trickle-down，叫做涓滴效應。院長，您相不相信這樣子說法的效果？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣已經是一個成熟的開發，而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方，讓一部分人先富起來，那是古代中國的一個說法，不適合我們現在，我們現在注重的不僅是高科技，我們希望中小微企業都能夠全部起來，這就是所謂均衡臺灣的理念。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望均衡，對不對？好，很好，這就是本席今天第一個要提的概念，為什麼我會提這個當作開場？因為賴清德政府的經濟政策，基本上最常被人家討論的叫做五大信賴產業，對不對？半導體、人工智慧、軍工、安控、次世代通訊，希望透過價值鏈的整合，帶動經濟的成長，這個其實就是標準的下滲經濟學這樣的一個邏輯。我們討論台積電，台積電是我們護國神山；我們討論輝達，認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是臺灣之光，當我們討論這些成功的世界級企業的時候，臺灣人都同感榮耀，這一點本席也非常同意，但本席不禁在想，臺灣難道只有台積電嗎？我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著輝達嗎？我想請問院長，請問臺灣的中小企業數量有多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是，中小企業才是臺灣經濟的骨幹。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，數量有多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有很多……"],["牛委員煦庭：數量有多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：人口大概……"],["郭部長智輝：164萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：164萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們人口更多……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，部長，OK，大企業大概多少家？"],["卓院長榮泰：大企業？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，非中小企業的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要怎麼定義叫大企業？"],["牛委員煦庭：就不是中小企業的，有1.8萬家，分別占全體企業數的比率，其實中小企業如同院長剛剛講的，占98.9%，大型企業占1.1%。我就繼續問部長好了，部長是業界出身，當然，崇越集團是大企業沒有錯嘛，對不對？那我要特別請教，您知道中小企業的從業人口數占多少比例嗎？人數多少、比例多少？從業人口數。"],["卓院長榮泰：有幾百萬人。"],["牛委員煦庭：幾百萬？"],["郭部長智輝：中小企業應該有差不多900萬左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯，來，中小企業的數量是163.3萬，占全國98.9%；中小企業的從業人數是913萬，占全部就業人口數79.98%；相對來講，大企業大概是10%左右；另外有18.9%左右是在政府上班。","我們看這個比率，不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數，就如同院長剛剛講的，其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹，但是我們大部分看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候，像大矽谷、高科技、大計畫，其實占掉了大部分的篇幅，本席非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊，我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的。院長，你對這樣的說法，有沒有什麼回應？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點，所以我們認為，能夠從數位轉型幫忙中小微企業做產業的升級，才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型，對不對？還不錯，有一點方向，但是我今天講話就比較不客氣了，我要講一些一般人比較少接觸，但是滿殘酷的真相。我先請問院長，我們的「晶片驅動臺灣創新方案」要投入多少資源？"],["卓院長榮泰：晶創？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，晶創方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：晶創方案，這個我們請國科會來說明一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，我直接回答，因為時間有限。10年3,000億，臺灣AI行動2.0投入多少資源？部長知道嗎？部長總要知道一下吧！"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分我不是非常確定。"],["牛委員煦庭：來，國科會就救援一下吧！"],["吳主任委員誠文：AI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動。"],["牛委員煦庭：經費？"],["吳主任委員誠文：經費部分確實的數字，我現在……"],["牛委員煦庭：4年400億，馬上的3.0預計每一年要投入120億，但我要再接著追問，你這個數字答不出來，我很擔心。院長，我請教一下，中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：少的多，民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在在查。"],["牛委員煦庭：也很少。輔導企業二代接班的這個計畫，叫做輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫，剛剛院長有講了，你看一下上面的圖表，民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6,000萬；中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4,000萬；輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路，第一年7,700萬。我們經濟部有中小企業，還跟新創併在一起，叫中小企業與創新署，年度預算只有44億4,000萬，跟前面我們剛剛講的，晶片驅動臺灣計畫10年3,000億；AI行動2.0是4年400億；未來3.0一年120億，是不是資源的投入跟政府政策的重心有一點點落差？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這一部分的話，我們所投入的預算是依以後產出的效益為主，所以這個計算，對晶創的部分跟AI的部分，都是以3年後、5年後的產值作為推估的一部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天絕對不反對投資AI、投資半導體，它是我們的護國神山，我非常支持，但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡，我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞──涓滴經濟學？就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候，你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈，這個概念都沒錯，但是我想請問，比如晶創產業、整個半導體產業鏈，這3,000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠？大的、小的加起來，整條半導體產業鏈，大概有多少家？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，晶創臺灣計畫我們現在正在修正，我們會把晶片應用、AI應用的產業，那就是包括中小企業全部會納進來，所以我們在應用的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：以本席瞭解的資料，整個半導體產業鏈的上、中、下游，大的、小的都算400家左右，你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家數是一百六十幾萬家，這就是我擔心的事情。第二個，我也很想問，這個AI的行動計畫可以造福多少產業、可以造福多少從業人員？對不對？這就是我今天想要問的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認同委員，我們在晶片產業跟AI應用的部分會推廣，現在正在規劃這個，所以會增加中小企業的……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我想不管是院長、部長跟主委，應該可以聽得出來啦！現在看起來資源投入的失衡狀況好像比較明顯一些，其實很多中小企業的專案，我們去爬資料，甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出，因為太小了，相比這些大企業、這些旗艦，這小到沒有被人家關注，但不能因為它小就遺忘它，這是我給新團隊的第一個提醒，希望院長可以合理地做調整，而不要忽略了大部分從業人員跟基層產業的需求，好嗎？這是第一個。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，國科會在討論這個議程的時候，它有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果，將來一定不僅從高科技裡面，還要再分高科技裡面的強弱，還要落實到中小微企業，主委曾經報告過這樣詳細的計畫。"],["牛委員煦庭：畢竟新團隊才剛上任，我們會願意給一些時間，但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候，不要再看到大小眼的這種狀況。","再來，我要問股票指數屢創歷史新高，國發會的景氣燈號攀升，藍燈慢慢都變紅燈，數據上看起來經濟前景很好，院長，看好臺灣未來的經濟嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：最近很多人包括國外的朋友跟國際大廠對臺灣的持續投資，都認為臺灣是一個很好的機會，但是我們政府跟民間都要有能力來接住這樣的機會。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝！但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府，也許是國外企業的落差，從總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯。但是中央大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心，它一直以來有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票時機等6項信心指數，進行長時間的民意調查，目前……","我就直接把圖表show出來了，人民的想法跟觀感，跟政府漂亮的數據，其實有不小的落差，家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概44%左右；對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%；就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半，56%。物價水準信心非常可怕，認為物價未來會上漲的有九成多；股票雖然上了兩萬多點，大家都覺得很厲害，但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機。院長，為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差？"],["卓院長榮泰：我承認人民的感受，我們要讓它更真實、更溫暖、更直接，所以我說過一句話──任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標，但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，公平的分配，其實這個非常切合本席要問的主題，為什麼數字很好，可是大部分的人悲觀，其實就是通貨膨脹的問題，有超過94%的人認為物價會上漲，經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛！很多科技業的榮景，不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的，這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題，分配是非常重要的，所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題。","根據數據資料庫的顯示，我們勞工的每月名目薪資，從2020年到2024年成長了大概三千多塊，接近一成，提升的幅度不小，但是其實更多人關注的是所謂實質薪資的上漲率啊！實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內卻是連續下降，院長，這代表什麼意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們薪資的結構還是要讓它增加人民的所得。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊！通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦，受苦程度也有大有小，因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總處的薪情平臺，這個用我們政府的資料，2023年統計資料顯示，我們總共有111類的產業，大家講百工百業，其中有73個類別的產業，每個月包含獎金在內、包含加班費在內，薪水其實低於5萬，這73類的產業占全體產業類別65.7%，其中又以服務業跟中小企業為大宗。這就是為什麼我開宗明義一定要講分配是很重要的，面對通膨帶動的成本全面上漲，請問院長怎麼從困境中找出路？打算用什麼樣的方法解決薪資停止成長的情況，院長現在有想法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府當然會透過每一年適當的調薪，看能不能帶動企業對整個員工調薪，如果我們經濟是向好的方向發展，更期待企業、雇主能夠將這個利益分散到勞工的身上去，讓他能夠得到這樣的比例。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長要找這些業者來喝咖啡，對不對？以前的方法，不外乎第一個，政府帶頭調薪；第二個就是請重要的人士來喝咖啡。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也可以公開的呼籲。"],["牛委員煦庭：公開的呼籲。我們要討論的一樣，本席在乎的是中小企業的事，針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案，其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛，對不對？但是一樣，2016年我們針對這個做加薪減稅，也就是中小企業給員工加薪，政府給稅率優惠，這個東西花了多少錢？院長跟部長有掌握嗎？有一點細節啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是相當大指標的一個獎勵……"],["牛委員煦庭：2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅式支出1,043萬、一千多萬而已；2017年753萬，然後這個計畫就中斷了，馬上要新上路，因為最近又在討論修法的方案，從高估的角度最多最多也就是2.63億啊，如果低估的話，可能只有5,000萬。對照我們剛剛給那些大企業、成功企業各式各樣的政策優惠，同樣在加薪減稅這一塊，政府投入的資源本席期期以為不夠啊！真的是不夠啊！","經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的照妖鏡，如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策，投入的資源是以百億、千億為單位，就期待這些企業成為火車頭，要帶動產業成長，要成為原動力，這個就是我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的涓滴效應，是這樣子的政策邏輯。不管藍綠，過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像臺灣的經濟政策，但從薪資的數字、人民的信心指數來看，顯然沒有涓滴的效果，反而形成了強者恆強、弱者更弱的分配問題，本席認為這叫方向錯誤，如果政府沒有辦法及時來調整，我認為這是有負人民的託付。","所以本席在第一段的質詢裡面，期許新政府能夠察覺問題，調整政策，關注中小企業及服務業的發展、從業人員的薪資狀況。他們明明就是這個社會上的多數，卻在政府的資源分配上只有千萬或者是以億為單位的專案投入，這是嚴重失衡。所以本席嚴肅提醒我們的政府，要有更深刻的研究、更細緻的政策，不要迷思於總體經濟的數據，而忘記人民分配的公平、正義。院長，講到目前還可以接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的觀點，總體經濟還是很重要，我們這次很多的閣員都來自產業，我們希望帶進產業的效率。最近我們也會對進階問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會，當中國發會、經濟部、財政部會就現在所遇到的問題，跟長久以來無法解決的問題，提出一個新的觀點跟看法，我們希望有機會來落實下去。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們期待政策在這樣子的平臺搭建起來之後，針對中小企業，針對服務業，一定要投入特別的資源。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓國發會主委來說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，因為我時間有限。我樂觀期待你可以有像樣的作法，但因為我們要進入到第二階段，第二階段我們要談的是房價，所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息。有請我們內政部長。","接著我們談房價的問題，根據內政部從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果，可以發現住宅價格上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖，以105年也就是2016年蔡政府上臺第1年當成基準來計算，房價指數是100，到112年度的第四季，也就是去年的年底，這個數字的指數直逼140，可以說這8年住宅價格上漲了接近四成。但今天我要先問的問題是於此同時，有一個非常有趣的狀況，想要跟政府來做一下探討，跟院長做個探討，內政部統計的房價所得比好像沒什麼變，也就是房屋價格大概漲了三成多，接近四成，可是我看你那房價所得比好像沒有差很多。","以桃園市為例，以前2020年……也就是剛好105年那個基準年是7.6，現在變成8.1啊，房價漲這麼多，為什麼房價所得比沒有相應幅度的上漲？你們有沒有做過這樣子的研究，為什麼差別差這麼多？院長或部長可以回答。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教，你大概也發現其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高，所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況，政府所推出來包括我們現在所謂的百萬租屋家戶的部分，追不上現在房價的速度，所以才會產生像你所說的現象，那是我們必須要來檢討改進的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，待會我們一樣會針對百萬租屋政策探討。我只舉一個例子，我講這個數據的不合理性，我希望政府思考一下，是不是太樂觀了？比如說，2020年在本席的選區──A7重劃區，那時候一坪房屋價格大概是25萬，到2024年、2023年的年底左右大概是35萬，其實它上漲幅度差不多就是四成，也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一衛的房型，到最近差不多都是一千四百多萬，甚至有更高的狀況出現。而房價所得比7.6的意思，表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買得起1,000萬的房子，我們就以這個為例子，年收入所得大概是131萬；到了2023年，如果房價從1,000萬變成1,400萬的時候，照理來講，房價所得比用同樣一百三十幾萬的標準來算的話，房價所得比會超過10，對不對？我要存超過10年，因為1年收入130萬，房價要1,400百萬，房價所得比超過10，可是按照你們這個數字的算法才8.1，也就是短短半年的時間增加了400萬的收入，本席覺得這個數字跟人民實際的感受有很大的落差。如果政府的數據太過樂觀，沒有辦法認知高房價，尤其是對於青年世代的衝擊，我擔心政府沒有辦法好好的規劃相關的政策。","我要問，為什麼房價會越打越高呢？我們還是要回到問題的根源，請院長評價一下，蔡政府過去8年針對熱錢湧入房地產市場是怎麼樣打擊炒作？你給這樣一連串的政策措施打幾分？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在過去推動了多元的社會住宅政策，也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅，打擊短期炒作，這些手段都有在做，政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發，包括軌道交通的開發，這種開發都會助長當地房價跟生活圈的改善，所以房價高漲有很多社會的因素。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以院長覺得很正常，而且不用改善？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府從居住正義的角度去做更多平價的，從可以讓年輕人住的安心的角色去做，但我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然不應該停下來，公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質，這點本席非常同意，但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題。從80年代以來，臺灣的住宅政策基本上崇尚住宅當商品、市場萬能論、去公共化的思維，讓房價回歸市場機制就好了，政府雖然有少數的打擊措施，但大部分都是補貼式的政策，美其名曰降低青年的負擔，其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房。截至2022年底，我國住宅自有率高達84.6%，但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年，30年變成35年，甚至出現40年的房貸，多少年輕世代因為這樣陷入房子、孩子二選一的困境，養了孩子卻無力買房，背了房貸就無力生子。","我們看到政府面對民怨的主要對應手段，在過去這些時間還是加碼、加碼、再加碼，補貼、補貼、再補貼，至於真正有機會能夠降低房價、抑制投機市場面的改革，恐怕是牛步向前。政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼，租屋補貼是一種，新青安的利息補貼是一種，但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲，如果我們還是只繼續用社會福利的角度提供社宅、提供補貼，只用這樣的角度看待住宅政策，大家想要討好青年，又不敢得罪建商，慷公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。","本席主張，政府的思維應該從社會福利轉向社會投資，什麼叫社會投資？大家都講青年的世代、國家的未來，他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具，不應該絕望，也不應該對未來躺平以對，解決青年的住房問題就是解決青年少子女化的問題，就是找回國家未來最直接、最有效也最務實的方式，我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化，讓它回歸使用價值，要從整體市場面推動改革方案，澈底改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境，以確保居住權。","針對蔡政府8年的打房措施，本席認為是不及格的，深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸，但是賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法，也馬上要上路，請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容，這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本，避免囤積居奇，大搞限售、鎖盤？什麼時候推動上路？預期成效跟目標又是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新青安的問題，財政部已經就貸後管理的加強，做了很多因應的措施，至於稅制的問題，我想再請部長來說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關房屋稅條例修正了以後，今年7月1號開始就會上路，對於建商，我們是按照規定，在時間內就是取得使用執照後2年內的時間適用比較低的稅，然後超過2到4年之間，適用不同的稅率，是希望建商能夠把興建完成的房屋釋出到市場，避免囤積居奇。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝財政部長、院長還有劉世芳部長，這個內容我就直接秀給大家看，這很重要，前面當然不管是院長或者是部長，大部分的時間都談建設社宅、都談租屋補貼、都談包租代管，這些我也都支持，可是我剛剛講的，政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利，要有市場面的改革，囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革，而且政府已經推了方案，甚至即將上路，沒有什麼道理院長、部長不曉得的，好不好？","剛剛財政部長講得很清楚，這個囤房稅會針對建商，只有2年的寬限期，如果2年內不把該賣的都賣掉，後面就會增加它的持有成本。請問院長、請問兩位部長，這樣一個政策上路之後，你有沒有預設目標？比如說，我要把房價指數往上的趨勢壓平，或者是有沒有具體的一個數字，大概多少時間內，還有多少信心可以完成？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初應該有這樣的規劃……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，房屋稅基本上我們要讓它走到合理化，也就是說，持有者必須有一個合理的負擔，所以若是自住的話，單一自住事實上我們是降低稅率……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然！"],["莊部長翠雲：但是對於你持有房屋，卻又沒有做合理的利用或是空置，那我們也會用比較高的稅，但是如果你出租的話，我們是會用比較低的稅率，換句話說，希望持有房屋的人可以釋出，不管是租賃市場也好或買賣市場也好，都可以增加這樣的供給，讓房屋市場能夠得到更健康的發展。"],["牛委員煦庭：內容部長講得很清楚，但是我的問題是什麼？我的問題是政策目標，也就是說，我要把房屋指數往下降，包括降多少，或者是有什麼樣的具體方向？你們在推動的時候，總有一個政策成效吧！它預期的成效會是什麼？比如說，因為這樣的2年寬限期，全國中央歸戶這樣一個政策設計，多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋，改善市場供需不均衡的狀況，你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，當初在政策制定的時候，一定是有相關內容的詳細分析跟研究，或許部長現在手上沒有，我們會把這個資料再跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒有關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：否則這個政策不可能通過大家討論來上路的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，第一次都沒關係，但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候，各式各樣的數據院長要把它記在腦子裡面，大的方向至少要有。比如說，我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅；20幾萬戶的包租代管；50萬的租屋補貼，你看我都會背了，你也會背，大家都會背，可是不會只有這個，對不對？","好，既然你剛剛講到大家擅長的，我就要提到劉世芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也說，2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅；25萬戶包租代管；50萬戶的租金補貼；要提供100萬戶的供給量，有這樣的政策目標，是8年的大目標，大家都可以講，但是我很好奇的是，萬一做不到，誰負責？怎麼負責？我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你8年之後一定做不到，這樣好像也太看衰政府，我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用8年的大目標去框這個東西的話，我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講，有負面的影響。請問有沒有更細緻的？比如說，我們是以逐年或是每兩年的政策目標是什麼來看，方便所有關注住宅議題的人，立委也好，公民團體也好，都可以有效來追蹤，請問有想法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，我想您講的這部分，8年內百萬租屋家戶支持計畫一定達得到，為什麼？因為到目前為止，包括包租代管或是租金補貼，其實已經達到原來的目標；比較慢的部分，就是所謂的直接興建社宅的部分，直接興建社宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概八、九萬戶……"],["牛委員煦庭：我不要聽今年的，我要聽1年後、2年後、4年後或是8年後，請你去整理，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我們每一季、每半年、每一年都會做滾動式檢討，並做數值上的調整……"],["牛委員煦庭：請你去整理，我希望你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標，比如說分四個階段來達成，這樣是不是大家在追蹤上比較具體？中間出了問題，我可能會及時來調整，而不是因為8年以後可以達成總量，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：不會！不會！"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望有逐年詳細的目標。"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：我也希望院長要立軍令狀，萬一沒有達成要負起政治責任，要有這樣的心理準備，我們才會相信政府在推動社會住宅政策、推動包租代管等等的時候，是玩真的！","最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質，因為時間有限，我們就不多花時間論述。這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異，這個在新北、臺北、桃園、新竹縣市，大體上晚上的人都比白天的人多。這代表什麼意思？除了少部分是上夜班或移工之外，大部分其實就是租屋客群居的地方。因為他不在戶籍人口之內，但是在做調查時人是在這個位置的。租屋族到底有多少人？光討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘，因為租屋市場是一個黑市，沒有人能夠很清楚瞭解這個數字，所以這是一個大問題！除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外，租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的。根據巢運調查租屋青年的困擾有：不可以設戶籍、不可以領租屋補助、不可以報稅、租金過高、價格不穩定，這些東西都會讓政府推動租屋或住宅政策的政策品質受到一定影響！所以本席希望，長期你可以推8年100萬戶，但短期之內的軟體、政策也要同步達成。本席講的就是租屋市場的透明化，本席的草案、本黨的草案，基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備排審。我想請問，中央政府針對租屋市場透明化有沒有修法規劃？有沒有具體的時間表？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我先跟委員報告一下。目前我們在百萬租屋家戶裡面，所謂的包租代管或租金補貼的方式，其實已經超過，有60萬到70萬的家戶，所以我們會針對在租屋的過程當中，包括您剛剛所說的租屋市場的津貼也好，或租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化，可以提供給更多人或者年輕人來參考。據我瞭解，臺北市政府他們願意幫忙，將網路上的租屋安全網設定為大家可以公開……"],["牛委員煦庭：可以比價，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，看房價是不是合乎……"],["牛委員煦庭：地方政府走得比中央政府快的時候……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：中央政府要趕快跟上，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：原來網路上就有這樣的租屋補貼方式，至於是不是夠透明化？如果有縣市政府願意投入來幫忙的話……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，看起來行政院沒有這麼快提版本，所以我們的版本就先來排審。排審的時候，希望行政院能以開放的態度跟我們充分討論，好嗎？針對租屋市場透明化這一塊，將包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步納入，讓租屋市場恢復正常，這樣大家以後才可以比較理性而且比較清楚地討論政策，希望內政部是準備好的。","最後總結一下：我們的政府樂觀，但人民保守，其實原因還是在於分配不均。94%的人擔心物價，80%的中小企業缺乏關愛，65.7%的產業受限於低薪問題。我們的房價越打越高，人民越來越苦！房價所得比失真，房價上漲四成，貸款年限大增，青年不婚不生，外帶租屋市場不透明！凡此種種都是重要的民生問題，希望卓內閣可以發揮智慧，好好來解決相關的民生問題，還給人民公平正義。以上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提問。這個問題我們列為政府未來很重要的工作，我們全力來因應相關對策。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員質詢，謝謝卓院長備詢。","報告院會，現在我們休息15分鐘，謝謝。","休息（16時17分）","繼續開會（16時33分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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down沒關係部長可以說明編記效應嗎不是編記啦捐低啊下盛經濟學聽過沒有"},{"start":98.151,"end":119.424,"text":"好沒關係我解釋給你聽喔捐低效應或稱下正經濟學是講說政策上政府的政策側重大企業透過給大企業不管是減稅也好或者是產業經濟政策的一些優惠期待讓這一群人來帶動其他人的發展透過讓一部分的人先成功然後"},{"start":120.505,"end":136.921,"text":"祈待他們可以合理的自己分配這些賺來的財富,從而間接的達成社會貧富差距越來越小的這件事情。這個概念叫做Trickle Down,叫做捐低效應。這個院長您相不相信這樣效果,這樣子說法的效果?"},{"start":137.321,"end":154.29,"text":"台灣已經是一個成熟的開發而且高科技產業非常完善的一個地方了。當一部分人先富起來那是古代中國的一個實用化,其實不適合我們現在。我們現在注重的不僅是高科技,我們希望中小微企業都能夠存不起來。"},{"start":154.85,"end":173.54,"text":"這就是所謂均衡台灣的理念。希望均衡對不對?很好,這是我本期今天第一個要提的概念。為什麼我會提這個當作開場?因為賴清德政府的經濟政策基本上最常被人家討論的叫五大信賴產業,對不對?半導體、人工智慧、軍工安控、次世代通訊。希望透過價值鏈的整合帶動經濟的成長,這個其實就是標準的。"},{"start":177.862,"end":195.062,"text":"下盛經濟學的這樣一個邏輯啊。我們討論台積電,台積電是我們護國神山。我們討論輝達,認為皮衣哥黃仁勳是臺灣之光。當我們討論這些成功的世界級的企業的時候,臺灣人都同感榮耀。這一點本席也非常同意。但本席不禁在想啊,臺灣難道只有台積電嗎?"},{"start":196.684,"end":210.532,"text":"我們的經濟難道只能圍繞著揮打嗎?我想請問院長,請問台灣中小企業的數量有多少?當然不是,中小企業才是台灣經濟的骨幹。沒錯,數量有多少?數量有多少?164萬。164萬,好,部長OK喔。大企業大概多少家?"},{"start":216.428,"end":216.608,"text":"幾百萬人"},{"start":246.314,"end":249.777,"text":"中小企業的數量163.3萬,占全國98.9%。中小企業從業人數913萬,占全部就業人口數79.98%。相對來講大企業大概是10%左右,另外有18.9%左右是在政府來上班。"},{"start":271.636,"end":299.813,"text":"我們看到這個比例不管是企業的家數或者是從業人口數就如同院長剛剛講的其實中小企業才是真正的骨幹但是我們大部分在看到整個政府在推動經濟發展跟產業政策的時候大細股、高科技、大計畫其實佔掉了大部分的篇幅本身非常擔心中小企業、服務業是被政府遺忘的一塊我很擔心在未來政府對他們的角色跟照顧恐怕是失衡的院長你對這樣的說法有沒有什麼回應"},{"start":300.473,"end":327.868,"text":"我們也很怕會造成這種錯誤的現象跟錯誤的觀點所以我們認為中小微企業能夠從數位轉型幫忙他做產業的升級才是國家經濟跟社會安定之道所以你現在有提一個概念叫轉型對不對還不錯有點方向但是我今天就講話我就比較不客氣了我要講一些一般人比較少接觸但是蠻殘酷的真相我先請問院長我們的晶片驅動台灣創新方案要投入多少資源"},{"start":331.457,"end":332.577,"text":"AI行動方案2.0我們剛啟動"},{"start":359.753,"end":375.601,"text":"經費部份確實的數字我現在四年400億馬上的3.0預計每年要投入120億但我要再接著追問你是數字答不出來我很擔心那院長我請教一下中小企業行動智慧應用計畫投入多少資源少的多民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫投入多少資源也很少"},{"start":385.387,"end":393.487,"text":"福島企業二代接班的這個叫做福島小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫剛剛院長有講的你看一下上面的圖表"},{"start":394.332,"end":418.75,"text":"民生消費品產業升級轉型輔導計畫4年1億6千萬。中小企業行動智慧應用計畫5年1億4千萬。輔導小微型企業數位轉型及永續發展計畫2024年剛剛上路第一年7千7百萬。我們經濟部有中小企業還跟新創並在一起叫中小企業與創新署。年度預算只有44億4千萬。"},{"start":420.811,"end":448.428,"text":"跟前面我們剛剛講的晶片驅動台灣計畫十年三千億AI行動2.0四年四百億未來3.0一年一百二十億是不是資源的投入跟政府的政策的重心有一點點落差?報告委員這一部分的話我們所投入的預算是以以後產出的這個效益為主的這個計算所以這個對這個晶創的部分跟這個AI的部分都是以"},{"start":448.989,"end":449.998,"text":"三年後五年後的產詞"},{"start":451.437,"end":480.043,"text":"作為推估的一部分。我今天我絕對不反對投資AI投資半導體。他是我們的護國神山我非常支持。但是我擔心的是政府角色的失衡。我為什麼開頭要用特別的名詞叫捐低經濟學。就是因為你永遠都只有看到龍頭的時候。你期待龍頭帶動產業鏈這個概念都沒錯。但是我要請問比如說精創產業整個半導體產業鏈受惠這3000億的資源總共有多少間企業會受惠?大的小的加起來整條半導體產業鏈大概多少家?"},{"start":481.603,"end":500.638,"text":"報告委員,我們金創台灣計畫,我們現在正在修正,我們會把晶片的應用,AI的應用的產業,那就是包括中小企業,全部會納進來,所以我們在應用的部分...以本席了解的資料,整個半導體產業鏈的上中下游,大的小的都算了,400家左右。"},{"start":501.198,"end":524.753,"text":"你看我們剛剛討論中小企業總共的家數是160幾萬家。這是我擔心的事情。第二個我也很想問你這個AI的行動計畫它可以造福多少產業?可以造福多少從業人員?對不對?這是我今天想要問的問題嗎?這是我的認同委員就是說我們在晶片產業跟AI它的應用的部分我們會推廣我們現在正在規劃這個所以會增加中小企業"},{"start":525.673,"end":540.502,"text":"我想不管是院長部長跟主委應該可以聽得出來啦就是說現在看起來資源的投入啊失衡的狀況好像比較明顯一些其實很多中小企業的專案甚至我們去爬資料啊甚至都沒有辦法在新聞媒體上露出啊因為太小了"},{"start":540.962,"end":565.171,"text":"相比這些大企業這些旗艦這小到沒有被人家關注但不能因為他小就遺忘他這是我給這個新團隊的第一個提醒希望院長可以合理的做調整而不要忽略了大部分從業人員跟基層產業的需求好不好這第一個國科會在討論這個議程的時候他有相當好的一個方向跟分析的結果將來一定從"},{"start":566.031,"end":582.266,"text":"不僅從高科技裡面還要再分高科技裡面的強弱還要落實到中小微企業主委曾經報告過這樣的計畫畢竟新團隊才剛上任我們會願意給一些時間但我希望接下來我們在追蹤這個題目的時候不要再看到這種大細膜這種狀況再來我要問喔這個股票指數屢創歷史新高國內國發會的景氣燈號攀升藍燈慢慢都變紅燈數據上看起來經濟前景很好院長看好台灣未來的經濟嗎"},{"start":593.951,"end":597.813,"text":"好,謝謝。但我要講的是人民的落差跟一般的政府也許是國外企業的落差"},{"start":612.34,"end":637.902,"text":"從覆面的總體經濟數據來看好像狀況不錯但是中央大學的臺灣經濟發展研究中心一直以來他有長時間針對家庭經濟信心、經濟景氣信心、就業信心、物價水準、購買耐久財時機跟投資股票的時機等6項信心指數進行長時間的民意調查那目前我就直接把圖表秀出來了人民的想法跟觀感跟政府的漂亮的數據其實有不小的落差"},{"start":638.422,"end":655.603,"text":"家庭經濟信心認為不太好的大概有44%左右對於經濟景氣的信心覺得不太好的大概37%到38%就業機會的信心覺得不太好的超過一半56%物價水準信心非常可怕認為物價未來會上漲的9成多"},{"start":657.11,"end":670.113,"text":"股票雖然上了兩萬多點大家都覺得很厲害但是有超過三分之二的臺灣人民不認為現在是一個投資股票的好時機啊。院長為什麼人民的感受跟政府的數據有一個顯著的落差?"},{"start":670.916,"end":691.843,"text":"我承認人民的感受我們要讓他更真實更溫暖更直接所以我說過一句話就是任何經濟的發展是繁榮的指標但是公平的分配才是文明國家的象徵公平的分配其實這個非常有切合本席在問的主題為什麼數字很好可是大部分人悲觀其實就是通貨膨脹的問題"},{"start":693.524,"end":711.521,"text":"有超過9494%的人認為物價會上漲經濟成長的好處顯然被更高的通膨給壓過去了嘛很多科技業的榮景不見得是很多中小企業所能感受的這是另外一個本席剛剛有提到的問題所以分配是非常重要的所以我們接下來談一談薪水的問題喔這個根據喔"},{"start":714.303,"end":733.908,"text":"數據資料庫的顯示我們的勞工的每月明目薪資從2020年到2024年大概成長了大概3000多塊接近一成提升的幅度不小但是其實更多人關注的是所謂的實質薪資的上漲率實質經常性薪資在同樣的時間內就是連續下降院長這代表什麼意思我們薪資的結構還是要讓他"},{"start":737.558,"end":744.766,"text":"這增加人民的所得還是要讓它增加人民的所得因為薪資名目的上漲比不上通貨膨脹的速度啊"},{"start":745.438,"end":768.987,"text":"通膨嚴重基本上全民受苦啊,受苦程度也有大有小,因為各行各業心情不太一樣。行政院主計總署的心情平台,這個用我們政府的資料,2023年統計資料顯示,我們總共有111類的產業,大家講百工百業,其中有73個類別的產業,每個月包含獎金在內,包含加班費在內,薪水其實低於5萬。"},{"start":770.828,"end":791.437,"text":"這73類的產業占全體產業類別65.7%,其中又以服務業跟中小企業為大宗。這就為什麼我開宗明一定要講分配是很重要的。面對通膨帶動的成本全面上漲,請問院長要怎麼從困境中找出路?打算用什麼樣的方法解決企業薪資停止成長的情況?院長現在有想法嗎?"},{"start":792.418,"end":805.473,"text":"那政府當然會透過每一年適當的調薪,看能不能帶動企業對整個員工的調薪。那如果說我們的經濟發展是向好的方向發展,更期待企業、僱主能夠將這個利益能夠"},{"start":807.415,"end":807.996,"text":"我們可以公開的呼籲"},{"start":823.479,"end":841.878,"text":"我們要討論的是一樣本期在乎的是中小企業的事啊針對中小企業的加薪減稅方案其實都透過修法的方式來處理嘛對不對但是一樣喔這個2016年我們針對這個東西做加薪減稅嘛也就是中小企業給員工加薪我政府給稅率優惠這個東西花了多少錢院長跟部長有掌握嗎"},{"start":843.487,"end":865.475,"text":"這個有點細節啦。2016年這個計畫第一次推出來的稅市支出1043萬,1000多萬而已。2017年753萬,然後這個計畫就中斷了。馬上要新上路,因為最近就在討論修法的方案。從高估的角度,高估最多最多也就是2.63億。如果低估的話可能只有5000萬。"},{"start":867.055,"end":892.285,"text":"對照我們剛剛給那些大企業成功的企業的各式各樣的政策優惠同樣在加薪減稅的這一塊的政府投入的資源本期期期以為不夠真的是不夠經濟政策的篇幅跟資源是政府最好的招邀金如果我們的政府一直圍繞強勢產業來訂定政策投入的資源是以百億為千億為單位就期待這些企業成為火車頭要帶動產業的成長要成為原動力這個就是"},{"start":895.147,"end":914.218,"text":"我開頭講的叫做經濟學上面的捐低效應。這是這樣的政策邏輯。但是不管藍綠過去這一段時間大家都是用這一套的邏輯去想像台灣的經濟政策。但從新制的數字人民的信心指數來看顯然沒有捐低的效果。反而形成了強者很強弱者更弱的分配問題。"},{"start":915.299,"end":929.655,"text":"我本期認為這叫方向錯誤如果政府沒有辦法及時來做調整我認為這是有負人民的託付所以本期期許在第一段的這個質詢裡面期許新政府能夠察覺問題調整政策對於中小企業服務業的發展"},{"start":930.456,"end":931.637,"text":"院長講到目前還可以接受嗎?"},{"start":954.123,"end":963.197,"text":"謝謝委員的觀點總體經濟還是很重要我們這一次很多的閣員都來自產業我們希望帶進來產業的效率最近我們也會對經濟問題在院內成立一個諮詢的委員會當中國發會經濟部財政部就會就"},{"start":969.306,"end":994.796,"text":"現在所遇到的問題跟長久以來無法解決的問題提出一個新的觀點跟看法我們期待政策在這樣子的平台搭建起來之後針對中小企業針對服務業一定要投入特別的資源沒關係因為我時間有限啦我期待啦樂觀期待你可以有像樣的這個做法但因為我們要進入到第二階段第二階段我們要談的是房價所以經濟部長等各位可以先回座休息我們內政部長有請"},{"start":1003.37,"end":1021.783,"text":"好接著我們談房價的問題根據內政部這個從全國各縣市的實價登錄交易資料顯示出來的結果可以發現住宅價格這個上升的趨勢比物價還要恐怖105年也就2016年蔡政府上臺第一年當成基準來計算房價指數100"},{"start":1022.904,"end":1051.041,"text":"到一百一十二年度的第四季也就去年的年底啊這個數字的指數啊直逼一百四啊可以說這八年裡面住宅價格上漲了接近四成啊但今天我要先問的問題是與此同時有一個非常有趣的狀況想要跟政府來做一下探討跟院長做個探討啊內政部統計的房價所得比啊好像沒什麼變也就是說房屋價格大概漲了三成多接近四成可是我看你在房價所得比好像沒有差很多以桃園市為例啊"},{"start":1051.661,"end":1052.342,"text":"院長或部長可以回答?"},{"start":1069.678,"end":1089.372,"text":"好,謝謝委員的指教。我想你大概也發現到說其實我們經濟的成長動能非常的高。所以房價在自由市場上面確實會出現這樣的狀況。那政府所推出來包括我們現在的所謂的百萬租屋、家戶的部分的追不上現在房價的速度。所以才會產生像你所說的那樣的現象。這是我們必須要來檢討改進的。"},{"start":1091.298,"end":1119.151,"text":"這個一樣是百萬,這個待會我們會針對百萬租入這個政策來做探討。我只舉一個例子,我講這個數據的不合理性,我希望政府會去做一下思考,是不是太樂觀了。比如說2020年,這個本期的選區,A級重化區,那時候大概一坪的房屋價格25萬。到2024年、2023年的年底左右,大概是35萬。其實上漲的幅度差不多就是四成。也就是說一個一千萬的兩房一廳一位的這樣一個房型,到了最近差不多都是一千四百多萬,甚至有更高的一個狀況來出現了。"},{"start":1120.632,"end":1136.9,"text":"那房價所得比的意思7.6表示不吃不喝7.6年可以買齊1000萬的房子我們就以這個為例子年收入的所得大概是131萬那到了2023年如果房價從1000萬變成1400萬的時候那照理來講我這個房價所得比我就用同樣的標準130幾萬的標準來去算的話房價所得比會超過10啊"},{"start":1141.963,"end":1142.263,"text":"那我要問阿"},{"start":1170.163,"end":1193.092,"text":"為什麼房價會越打越高呢?我們還是要回到問題的根源啊。請院長評價一下蔡政府過去8年針對這個熱錢湧入房地產市場。我們怎麼樣打擊炒作?你給這樣子的這一連串的政策措施打幾分?我們也在過去就推動了多元的這個社會住宅政策。也從稅制方面推動房地合一稅。"},{"start":1194.431,"end":1221.684,"text":"打擊短期炒作這個手段都有在做政府還是會持續做很多公共建設的開發包括軌道交通的開發這種開發都會助長當地這個房價跟生活圈的改善所以房價的高漲很多社會的因素所以院長覺得很正常而且也覺得不用改善但是政府就從居住正義的角度去做更多的平價的可以讓年輕人可以"},{"start":1222.344,"end":1250.574,"text":"注的安心的這個角色去做但是我們在公共建設方面還是不能停下來當然當然不應該停下來公共建設是改善所有人民的生活品質嘛這本身非常同意但是高房價是一個很大的社會問題從80年代以來喔台灣的住宅政策基本上就崇尚住宅當商品市場萬能論叫去公共化的思維讓房價回歸市場機制就好啦那政府基本上雖然有少數的打擊措施但大部分都是叫做補貼式的政策啊"},{"start":1250.934,"end":1279.201,"text":"每期名約降低青年的負擔其實就是變相鼓勵人民買房截至2022年底我國的住宅自有率高達84.6%但同時房屋貸款從20年變成30年30年變成35年甚至出現40年的房貸多少的年輕世代因為這樣子的關係陷入防止孩子二選一的困境養了孩子無力買房背了房貸無力生子"},{"start":1279.921,"end":1303.09,"text":"面對民怨的主要對應手段我們看到政府過去的時間還是加碼加碼再加碼補貼補貼再補貼至於真正有機會能夠降低房價抑制投機的市場面的改革恐怕是牛步向前政府用社會福利的角度提供補貼租屋補貼是一種新清安的利息補貼是一種但真正的問題從來就是居住世代的不公跟市場的扭曲"},{"start":1303.53,"end":1328.908,"text":"如果我們還是繼續只是用社會福利的角度提供社宅提供補貼來只有這樣子的角度來看待住宅政策。大家想要討好青年又不敢得罪建商。侃公家之慨卻沒有辦法解決問題。本期主張政府的思維應該轉從社會福利轉向社會投資啊。什麼叫社會投資?大家都講青年世代國家的未來。他們不應該是投資客獲利的工具。不應該也不..."},{"start":1329.688,"end":1353.984,"text":"也不應該絕望,不應該對未來躺平以對。解決青年的住房問題,就是解決青年少子女化的問題。就是找回國家的未來最直接、最有效、也最務實的方式。我們需要政府將住宅問題再公共化,讓它回歸使用價值,要從整體市場面推動改革方案,在於改善買不起跟租不好的兩大困境,來確保居住權。"},{"start":1354.924,"end":1381.237,"text":"財政府八年的打房措施本席市政委是不及格的。深水區的改革始終不願意碰觸。但是德賴清德總統曾經提過囤房稅2.0的想法也馬上要上路。請院長或部長簡單說明具體的內容。這樣的政策能不能增加建商的持有成本,避免囤積居奇,大搞限售鎖盤。什麼時候推動上路?預期的成效跟目標又是什麼?囤房稅2.0可能要請財政部來回答。"},{"start":1385.56,"end":1408.163,"text":"委員一定是關心最近談到所謂新清安的問題那財政部已經就代後管理的加強做了很多這個因應的措施至於說稅制的問題我想再請部長來做說明跟委員報告有關房屋稅條例修正了以後在今年7月1號開始會上路那對於建商我們是按照要他時間內然後"},{"start":1409.244,"end":1409.484,"text":"這很重要。"},{"start":1432.867,"end":1454.765,"text":"因為我們前面當然不管是院長或是部長大部分的時間都談建設社宅都談租屋補貼都談包租貸款這些我也都支持可是我剛剛講的政府的邏輯不能只有社會福利要有市場面的改革囤房稅就是一種市場面的改革而且你政府已經推了方案甚至即將上路沒有什麼道理院長部長不曉得的好不好剛剛財政部長講的很清楚"},{"start":1455.765,"end":1474.794,"text":"這個囤房稅會針對建商只有兩年的寬限期嘛,如果兩年內不把該賣的都賣掉,後面就會增加他的持有成本。請問院長,請問兩位部長,這樣子的一個政策上路之後,你有沒有預設目標?比如說我要把房價指數的往上的趨勢壓平,或者是有沒有具體的一個數字,大概多少時間內還有多少信心可以完成?"},{"start":1475.575,"end":1475.595,"text":"當然"},{"start":1490.865,"end":1496.887,"text":"內容部長講得很清楚,但是我的問題是什麼?我的問題是政策目標。也就是說我要把房屋指數往下降,降多少?"},{"start":1516.67,"end":1535.843,"text":"或者是有什麼樣的一個具體的方向?你們在推動這個的時候總有一個政策成效吧?它預期的成效會是什麼?比如說我因為這樣的兩年寬限期,全國中央歸戶這樣的一個政策設計,多少年內可以釋出多少餘屋,改善市場供需不均衡的狀況?你們有相關的數據跟政策目標的具體想法嗎?"},{"start":1537.591,"end":1537.911,"text":"好!沒關係!好!"},{"start":1552.671,"end":1572.8,"text":"我第一次都沒關係,但是我希望後面我們在追蹤題目的時候,各式各樣的數據,院長要把它記在腦子裡面,大的方向至少要有。比如說我就覺得你們可以講25萬戶社會住宅,20幾萬戶的這個包租貸款,租屋補貼,50萬的租屋補貼,你看我都會背了,對不對?這是你也會背,大家都會背,可是不會只有這個嘛,對不對?好,你既然講剛剛大家擅長的我就來講。"},{"start":1574.04,"end":1594.837,"text":"劉思芳部長在內政委員會答詢的時候也講2032年以前新辦25萬戶社會住宅25萬戶包租代管50萬戶的租金補貼提供100萬戶的這樣子的一個供給量這樣的政策目標八年的大目標大家都可以講但是我很好奇的是萬一如果做不到誰負責怎麼負責"},{"start":1596.098,"end":1621.853,"text":"但是我們總不能從現在就惡意推定你八年之後一定做不到,這樣子好像也太看衰政府,我們也不會這麼不講道理。但是如果你只用八年的大目標去框這個東西的話,我覺得恐怕對於大家追蹤政策的成效來講是有負面的影響的。請問有沒有更細緻的,比如說逐年或是每兩年他的政策目標是什麼,方便所有的關注住宅議題的所有的立委也好公民團體也好可以有效來追蹤,請問有想法嗎?"},{"start":1623.154,"end":1650.096,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想您講的部分我們在8年內達到百萬租屋加戶的這個計畫一定會達得到為什麼到目前為止包括這個包租貸款或是租金補貼其實已經達到原來的目標那比較慢的部分就是所謂的直接興建設宅的部分那直接興建設宅的部分到今年年底的時候已經達到大概89萬戶我不要聽今年的我要聽一年後兩年後四年後八年後我們每一季一半年每一年都會做滾動式請你去整理"},{"start":1651.397,"end":1674.264,"text":"你每兩年有一個兩年的階段目標嘛。比如說分四個階段來達成。這樣是不是大家追蹤比較具體。中間出了問題我可能會及時來調整。而不是說啊1月8年以後可以達成總量。我不要好不好。我希望有逐年詳細的目標。我也希望院長要力均力壯。萬一沒有達成是要有負起政治責任的。這樣子的一個心理準備。我們才會相信這政府在推動社會住宅政策、推動包租貸款等等的時候是玩真的齁。"},{"start":1675.004,"end":1691.728,"text":"最後一個題目是有關於租屋的品質因為時間有限我們就不多花時間來做論述了這個地圖是夜間人口跟戶籍人口的差異這個在新北、台北、桃園、新竹、縣市大體上晚上的人都比白天人多意思是什麼"},{"start":1692.088,"end":1721.263,"text":"除了有少部分是夜班或是移工之外大部分其實就租屋客群居的地方啦因為他不在戶籍人口之內但是在性命調查的時候他是被統計在人在這個位置的這個租屋族到底有多少人啊我們光是討論這件事搞不好可以討論30分鐘因為租屋市場是一個黑市啊我們沒有人能夠很清楚的了解這樣子的一個數字這是一個大的問題所以說除了剛剛講的囤房稅之外啊租屋市場的透明化其實也是非常非常重要的根據朝院的調查租屋的青年的困擾不可以"},{"start":1721.823,"end":1722.263,"text":"本期的草案"},{"start":1743.949,"end":1752.701,"text":"本黨的草案基本上都已經送進內政委員會準備來做排審。我想請問中央政府針對朱市長透明化有沒有修法的規劃有沒有具體的時間表?"},{"start":1753.852,"end":1774.838,"text":"我先跟委員報告一下目前我們在百萬租家戶裡面所謂的包租貸款或是租金補貼的方式其實已經超過有60萬到70萬的這樣的家戶那所以我們會針對說他在租屋的過程當中包括您剛所說的這個租屋市場的津貼也好或是租屋市場的價格是否夠透明化可以提供給更多或是年輕人來做參考"},{"start":1776.178,"end":1787.602,"text":"那我現在瞭解說像臺北市政府他們願意呢來幫忙就是把這個所有在這個網路上面的這個租屋的這個安全網設定一個讓大家可以公開跟透明化來看一下這個房價是不是合乎的規定。"},{"start":1793.224,"end":1814.421,"text":"原來在網路上面就有這樣的租屋補貼的方式,但是它是不是夠透明化?那有願意縣市政府要投入來幫忙的話?沒關係,如果看起來沒有這麼快提版本,那我們的版本就先來排審。那排審的時候,我希望行政院用開放的態度,我們充分來做討論,好嗎?針對租屋市場透明這一塊,包租代管跟租屋補貼逐步的來納入,讓租屋市場恢復正常。"},{"start":1814.921,"end":1833.552,"text":"大家以後才可以比較理性也比較清楚的討論政策,希望內政部是準備好了。好,最後總結一下,我們的政府樂觀但人民保守,其實原因還是分配不均。94%的人擔心物價,80%的中小企業缺乏關愛,65.7%的產業受限低薪問題,我們的房價越打越高,人民越來越苦。"},{"start":1834.172,"end":1834.352,"text":"謝謝委員的提問"}]}},{"id":"154082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154082","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a71bea4e6fdc992f784a337f76c37b5ea49bfab79a0d782af956f0580495835635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"15:15:56 - 15:46:34","影片長度":"00:30:38","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T15:15:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T15:46:34+08:00","duration":1838,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":106,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（15時16分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：卓院長，本席只做一任基隆市議員，就直接來到立法院，但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員時是完全一樣的，我認為實踐我的政見遠比勝選來得重要，完成我對選民的承諾遠比單純的勝負來得有價值。本席在擔任基隆市議員的時候，曾經有個政見叫做老幼共托，也就是說，讓年長者跟小朋友能夠一起在同樣一個場域裡面，長時間的來做日照或者是托育，為什麼會這樣講？因為基隆市大部分的青壯勞動力都在臺北或雙北，而老人家如果一出事情或小朋友只要一生病，我們就必須花很多的時間來照顧他們，再加上65歲的年長者、一定要退休的年長者，遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕、來得有活力，對社會來得更有價值，單純放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。但是這個老幼共托的政策在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題，不管是年長者還是7歲以下小朋友都會遇到，他們都希望能有護理人員的幫忙。我們也知道，臺灣的護理人員、護理師不足，這個問題其實已經不是臺灣獨有的現象，而是全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況。護理的人力荒導致現在有很多醫院，尤其在區域醫院特別多，就是必須要鎖床，因為我們的護理師人力不足或者護理師過勞。我在這邊想請問院長，您知道臺灣到今年1月份領有護理師執照的人到底有多少人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該接近19萬。"],["林委員沛祥：抱歉，是30萬，現在真正……"],["卓院長榮泰：真正在第一線的。"],["林委員沛祥：只有18萬6,000人，也就是說，只有六成的人領有護理師執照且願意執業，但是根據我們看到的資料，在2030年我們會需要將近24萬到26萬的護理師來照顧整個醫療系統，所以這樣一加一減的話，最近這幾年我們就必須要增加5萬5,000到7萬4,000的護理人力，才能滿足我們的需求。我也知道從去年開始，本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次，而兩次護理師的考試，我也聽說的確蠻驚駭的，7月份考試過關的趴數是將近55%、60%，2月份的考試則是低於18%，我當初看到資料的時候也覺得蠻匪夷所思的，不過我更想要知道的是，因為現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2,100，然後經過四年的學校教育，我們的考取率平均只有七成五，所以每年頂多加1,500人，全臺灣只加1,500個可以合格的護理師。變成是說，在衛福部「未來十年護產人力供需評估研究計畫」裡面指出，2024年我們將短缺1萬5,000人到2萬4,000人，換句話說，馬上護理師荒就要重來。去年9月28號，在第3873次會議中核備「護理人力政策整備12項策略計畫」，我想請問院長，你們到目前落實幾項？第一項是護理人員培育，其實說真的，一年只有2,100個新生，未來還會再下降，因為我們少子化，請問我們衛福部的具體政策會是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。衛福部從護理人才培育、護理人力的留任跟改善護理三大方向提出12項策略，有一件事情我必須向委員報告，十三年前當我們推動對全國護理師人員的獎勵，設立臺灣南丁格爾獎的時候，那時候第一線的護理從業人員大概只有十二、三萬，到現在經過十多年，已經進步增加到18萬、19萬，這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低，但是我覺得這個進展是有的，如果我們大家齊力推動，再加上衛福部的三大面向、12項策略能夠齊頭並進，我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內趕上或是接近需要的護理人員。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，為什麼我會提出來這個事情？其實在12項裡面，有些是我們正在進行的，我們團隊有去查資料，但是有些關鍵的地方我必須提出來，像第一個，在第三項裡面有提出三班護病比的現況資料蒐集，經過你們9個月的統計，醫學中心、區域醫院跟地區醫院有哪幾家醫院已經達到所謂1比6的護病比？"],["卓院長榮泰：達到的我們有獎勵的措施，請部長答復。"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵，三班護病比達標的也有獎勵。"],["林委員沛祥：不是，我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比，譬如包括醫學中心、區域醫院、地區醫院，你們9個月統計下來之後，哪些醫院合格的達到1比6？我只是想知道這個事情，部長可以回答我這個問題嗎？如果現在回答不出來，麻煩一下，因為我……"],["邱部長泰源：我們再查一下。"],["林委員沛祥：本席在這120天之內不知道有幾次，每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜、一個月之內將資料送到我手上，但是都沒有，等一下我可能會針對這些部會來做進一步的詢問，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。我們即刻請衛福部從醫學中心、區域醫院跟地區醫院將護病比統計出來，如果有達到，我們依照獎勵，沒有達到的，我們要求它趕快補足，但是人力上還是要儘量去訓練。"],["林委員沛祥：同樣的，因為這12項都是當初在選舉的時候，你們執政團隊提出來的……"],["卓院長榮泰：要全面的補足，因為現在人力是有缺口的，我們儘量從人力的培育來增加、從考用的制度來精進。"],["林委員沛祥：我現在甚至再問，既然已經講到1比6護病比，有關三班護病比標準的訂定跟落實，請問部長，你們擬定好了嗎？什麼時候可以跟全國護理師講我們已經準備好了？我再問一次，這12項政策是你們這次的競選團隊針對全國護理師所提出來的，第四項、三班護病比標準的訂定跟落實，請問我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎？什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢？老實講，我不想先破題，因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班護病比要入法，這是在選前講的，選前滿口答應，選後馬上忘記，基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題，用這樣聳動的話語去講事情，但是今天你們回答我的態度就讓我認為這件事情好像是真的，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，跟委員報告，我剛剛說過，人力的培育上我們要從考用的制度先精進，才有辦法多增加一些護理的從業人員，同時也希望剛剛提到30萬到18、19萬的這個數字能不能讓更多護理人員願意投入到第一線，所以設了很多對於待遇的優化、職場環境的友善等等，這個都持續在做，才能有辦法達到三班護病比。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝院長，我知道您想把這件事做好，因為這個不關意識形態、不關政治，是全然的民生議題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員沛祥：而且臺灣不管是基隆這個高齡化城市也好，還是臺灣已經邁入超高齡化國家，而且我們搞不好要跟全世界搶護士，這個可能也是我們會遇到的困境，我在這邊也順便……剛剛都講到待遇了嘛！老實講，出得起香蕉，只招得到猴子；出得起牛肉，才找得到獅子嘛！那我在這邊也必須要幫這些白班、小夜、急診的護理師講話，其實老實講，我前一陣子因為家人或是一些樁腳有事情，我去陪他們看一下病，甚至陪了一下病，在疫情之後，陪病是比較輕鬆的事情，但是當我們陪病去醫院的住院樓層跟急診室實地看看這些護理師的工作量，實在很可憐，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：很辛苦、很辛苦！"],["林委員沛祥：很可憐，而且前一陣子我記得有修法，就是針對護理師如果被病人打的時候要加強刑責，這我完全認同，但是就算是這樣做了事情，這樣的法修了之後，其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足，尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候，他們工作量本來就大，那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候，還是回到剛剛那句話，我們一天到晚給香蕉，當然只請得到猴子嘛！甚至我們只給他花生，連猴子都不來吃啊！我這樣講的比喻是說，其實護理師投入這一行，他們都是想救人、想要幫人，想要希望臺灣健保每個人會被照顧得更好，但是巧婦無米難為炊，更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候，我這邊強烈要求請不要同工不同酬，也就是醫學中心、區域中心跟地區醫院，這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了─同工不同酬，難道大夜班的累真的是體質上的累，如果是白班就不累嗎？白班的時候又要負責開刀，又要負責巡房，又要負責做一切的事情，又要負責打藥，這些全部都是白班的護理師需要去注重的，但是我們現在看到的政策就是，大夜班很可憐，小夜班很可憐，白班就很輕鬆，錯！我想部長應該對這件事最有體會。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長是第一線的臨床醫師出身，請他來說明一下。"],["邱部長泰源：非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心，因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師，跟護理人員一起團隊作戰，他們的辛苦不論是白班、夜班，都是非常非常的辛苦，每一個職場有它不同的繁重，其實我們有一直持續研議醫院白班繁重方面怎麼樣給他津貼，但是就這個繁重的部分正如剛剛委員所提到的，他說他繁重，他也說他繁重，所以在定義上面，我們會再做詳細的研議，我們最近也都有約相關的護理團體來討論，希望能夠訂出一個大家滿意的標準。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長，我再講一次，因為這是你們第八項裡面講的夜班費獎勵，我在這邊強烈要求，政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立，因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛，臺灣說真的，我們的護理師平均經常性薪資好像是4萬3,000，還是4萬4,000而已，其實以他的工時來講，我覺得可能跟最低工資差不多了，而且他們要提供的服務是專業性服務，其實這樣子非常的辛苦，難怪說我們有30萬人，我們剛剛在前面強調有30萬人拿到證照，卻只有18萬人、六成的人服務這個行業，這不是很可惜的事情嗎？我們花了4年的時間訓練出這些人，最後被人家說：這工作不好，我不要做。這個不是跟我們當初設立這些護理學校的本意完全相反嗎？我覺得這其實……我不想跟其他人說是國安危機，什麼都是國安危機，但是這個的確是我們很迫切需要解決的問題。","還有我想請問一下，在第十項跟第十一項還是有關三班護病比的達標，醫院應該有三班護病比的達標獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵，我想這都是當初12項裡面講的，請問部長或院長，獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢？那我們什麼時候看得到？什麼時候可以實施？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，優化護理職場的環境，落實三班護病比，這個其實在113年3月1號實施，未來我們有爭取到一個中長期的計畫，大概也通過預算，會來改善整個職場的環境。"],["林委員沛祥：好。我為什麼要去檢視這個部分？因為我剛剛有提過，本來2026年這些都應該要全面進去，但是我們沒有看到。在大選的時候，我們聽到三班護病比要入法，目前來講似乎就是慢慢、慢慢在做，現在聽到部長的回應、聽到院長的回應，我們知道像這樣的事情其實是有一步一步在做的，但是如果能夠的話，第一個，請你們加快；第二點，早點讓我們知道，這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心，我們希望多一點的護理師回到工作環境裡面，但是我們不跟他們講，其實你們的待遇會比未來好。甚至我會直接建議院長，將三班護病比直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準，這個醫療機構設置標準是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令，只要衛福部願意，就可以把三班護病比入法，而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序，基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦！我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，針對醫學中心區域醫院跟地區醫院三班護病比各有不同的數字比例，這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑的重要依據。但是我說人力要將他補齊，我們才有辦法真的做到，否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到足夠的護理人員，這個三班護病比就是一個空的目標，現在我們有進程、期程，就會將它一一地補齊。"],["林委員沛祥：如果講到醫療人力的話，其實某個程度上面，我想提醒院長一件事，就是全世界都在搶護士喔，其實我想院長，在您的高度上面，應該很清楚地知道美國在搶菲律賓的護士，然後我記得日本、韓國也有針對護士跟技術型勞工的部分，有相關規定說入籍多久之後，會給他們永久居留權，甚至給他們國籍。我知道這已經不單純是衛福部的事情，因為現在缺工的狀況是各行各業都有，但是我會在這邊提醒院長，您是行政院院長，您的任期其實我們不知道，我希望您能夠在您的任期之內，好好地跟整個行政團隊來考慮，用外籍勞工的這件事情，第一個，多元化；第二個，價值性；第三個，水準要夠；第四個，符合民情，這些方面我覺得已經不是衛福部的事情，不只是單單一個部的事情，而是跨部會的事情。院長如果自己不願意、沒辦法下來做，那是不是就請行政院秘書長，還是哪一個政務委員必須負責這一塊的業務？"],["卓院長榮泰：有關人力的補充，當然從國內培訓是最直接的，如果真的有需要，我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後，是不是會採用更好的方式，除了部長之外，我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該是大家可信賴的對醫護關係、醫護政策的專家以及專業人士，我會請陳時中政委來負責辦好這件事情。"],["林委員沛祥：我們一直在講護理、護理、護理，就花掉我們十幾分鐘，可是其實藥師的部分也一樣嚴重，我記得藥師考試的合格率好像是不到百分之三十，對吧？變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每1萬人只有13位藥師服務，那我很好奇，請問為什麼醫院卻長年聘不滿藥師呢？我們比OECD國家的比率來得高，但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們的藥師錄取比例的確是需要我們來做一個……"],["林委員沛祥：百分之二十幾，這個比人家三分球命中率還低啊！我知道這是絕對的專業，但是百分之二十幾……"],["邱部長泰源：其實各個專業人員的考試牽涉到的是那一個專業團體，尤其是老師們的堅持以及對他們專業的看法，所以有時候我們也常常溝通，有時候也……"],["林委員沛祥：甚至我直接講比較具體一點的，根據統計，臺大、臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心，加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名，絕大多數醫院的藥師也都存在缺額問題，即使醫院用了簽約金、用了年薪漲調等方式都很難留得住藥師，流動率非常高。請問部長或請問院長，為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個應該跟他在工作所遇到的，大家對工作的尊敬、工作的環境應該有相當的關係啦！而且我們也希望在不降低整個業界水準的情況底下，我們來精進考試的制度，執照的取得應該顧慮到他過去在學校期間那麼辛苦的求學過程，是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人經過學成之後投入到這個職場裡面。"],["林委員沛祥：整個醫療系統裡面，醫、護、藥三者缺一不可！雖然醫師夠，但是如果護士不夠，基本上醫師也難做事；就算醫師、護士夠，藥師不給藥，基本上治療也是很有限。變成現在臺灣的健保，我們一直講說我們的公衛是全球排名前幾名、我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的，但是現在遇到人員不足的時候，我們如果還是說OK、我們還是在自滿臺灣的健保全世界最好、臺灣的醫療全世界最有名，但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話，其實這個縮頭鴕鳥的方法不是可以解決事情的方法！而且某個程度上面，這不是單單一個衛福部部長可以解決，這可能是要院長級、要跨部會來去協助。我希望今天這20分鐘就這個議題上面的質詢，可以請院長跟整個行政團隊正視這方面的問題！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我也跟部長談過，我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他醫藥的工作裡面，人數能夠增加。"],["林委員沛祥：我希望會有專業的人來這方面，以實質上有價值、性價比較高、可以幫助到的方式解決現在的困境。","再來，請放一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝部長。","院長，我跟你是第二次見面，第一次見面是在基隆市的市場。"],["卓院長榮泰：市場。"],["林委員沛祥：對，我也記得，你那時候幫人家站臺，你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常、非常盛行的。基隆市最大的市場叫做仁愛市場，目前來講，也快變得跟北投一樣，這種傳統二樓市場改建得非常成功，但尷尬的地方是，他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年沒有冷氣，不是說沒有冷氣，這是我這個禮拜又過去看，我實際在那邊走，而且十一點半人潮只到一半多一點，到十二點半的時候人更多，然後體感溫度就已經超過37度，而且越來越熱！","我知道關於傳統市場這方面的議題，嚴格講起來主管的是經濟部，老實說我在進國會之後，有時在看這些預算、重新再審視整個預算的時候，我也很好奇，經濟部產發署跟技術司兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億。350億的話我曾經算過，如果一條基隆捷運加臺中捷運半條，這個是十幾年的工程，一年350億這個錢就夠了。我當然知道西瓜不能跟梨子比，我很清楚，不過同樣都是庶民經濟，剛剛我們從影片也看到，在禮拜六早上十一點半、其實人還沒有算很多的時候，我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人，如果哪一天院長來基隆，我帶你去那邊走走，你就知道了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好！"],["林委員沛祥：東西不錯吃，部長也一起來，其實我那時候還蠻希望黃仁勳、NVIDIA的老黃可以過來我們基隆吃吃東西，我們等一下會談到NVIDIA的事情。但是我也認為，現在基隆的仁愛市場、二樓市場已經變成一個觀光勝地、一個很多人都會去吃飯的地方，但是冷氣不足，剛剛看那個影片的時候你會發現，每一台電風扇都是開著，可是體感溫度還是降不下來，而且裡面的冷氣有的開、有的關，但是冷氣都出不來，老實講，這樣對用電其實蠻傷的，一個市場三十幾年來冷氣都沒有換過。","我說真的，我在這邊代表基隆、也代表基層，我是基隆的民意代表、我是基隆囡仔、我是基層出來的，所以我希望代表基隆、代表基層建請經濟部幫個忙，在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間。請問部長或院長，你們覺得這個三十幾年的大型傳統市場五百多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹，而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候，是不是可以建請行政團隊苦民所苦呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到，它有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便，現在都變成很潮流的地方、很明亮的地方，如果能用這種觀念來改變的話，我想基隆市民都是歡迎的，這個過程中，我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色，未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力，讓地方也能夠落實到基層的建設跟你說的市場的改建；至於中央可以補助的部分，我想我們在任何的補助跟任何的程序，都有它一定的規則跟程序。所以，我想經濟部能夠幫忙的也是從規則跟程序上面來做理解，但地方政府確實應該負起更多的責任。"],["林委員沛祥：部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你這個案子我們後來回去有檢討，我有責成我們相關單位，應該有跟你報告，我們現在是準備用節能減碳的方法來幫助市場改建，關於這個部分，大概所有的設備會由廠家來負責，最後的結果，比你的廠商繳的電費可能還更省。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我在這邊就已經講到省電的議題，其實郭部長你也辛苦了，最近整個政治氛圍跟您的專業、跟您過去的背景不太一樣，但是我在這邊也想請教郭部長，因為老實講，NVIDIA的黃仁勳剛剛離開，因為我個人是在看整個情況之後、在看著所有報導之後發現，當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口，老實說，我個人認為如果能夠把NVIDIA的R＆D center，就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣，不管留在哪個城市，我當然希望留在基隆市，但是不管留在哪個城市，對臺灣都是好事。","但是他自己第一時間也提出來電力的問題是一個很大的concern、很大的issue，因為電力充不充足是一回事，另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事；第三個是如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想我們已經有太多同事談到了，如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話，我想以一個全球布局的公司來說，可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠，更何況還有電力的來源，剛剛應該是林岱樺有講到臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣，有一個問題如果是業界人都很關心，就是CBAM，如果我記得沒錯的話是明年嘛？明年歐盟就要對於臺灣的產品課碳稅，對吧？CBAM的問題變成是……我們臺灣現在的碳稅問題，什麼碳交易所、碳交易法、碳交易子法是不是已經成型，而且我們臺灣如何先把這個稅錢拿下來之後，讓我們的產品輸出到歐盟不用被課稅？","換句話說，如果NVIDIA的R＆D center來到臺灣，那它的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅，他們會不會因為這樣而不願意進來？這我也很好奇，因為我們現在談到，我們當然希望NVIDIA過來，姑且不論國際政治因素，這可能是它第一、最大的風險；再來就是我們講的電力；再來還是講到會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震，颱風跟地震對NVIDIA來講等於是第三要去考慮的事情。第一是考慮到兩岸關係，再來考慮到電力問題，可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足，電力的來源還有電力的價格，而且我們也知道NVIDIA整個電力的使用率是高的，這不是我們現在隨便說1%、2%，因為你要做出R＆D的時候，R＆D不只用電多，而且可能會經過很多失敗，變成說我們用電不見得絕對會有產出，對吧？","所以我在這邊想請問經濟部長，另外一位部長也上來了，我想請問你們兩位，你們覺得NVIDIA現在……假設在我們現有的環境之下，要讓像NVIDIA這樣的國際大廠，再歡迎他們來一次、來這邊做考察，而且願意設廠，那我剛剛提到這幾個不定的因素、不定的風險該如何解決？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，NVIDIA要的還是綠電，所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力，也就是說，我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用。"],["林委員沛祥：來得及嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是來得及。"],["林委員沛祥：來得及嗎？因為我老實講，綠電過去8年讓我們，不是只有本席，我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展速度而感到失望，所以未來如何能夠趕得起，讓國人符合期待，而且好像本來在明年就要到15%還是20%，不過現在卻還缺很多，依這個狀況，不要講明年，而是怎麼樣在2030、2035年可以趕上35%。","我順便還要問到另外一件事，我時間不夠多，這件事我剛剛順便講到說我要資料，結果要了快兩個月還沒有來，那時候國發會主委說，我們2030要全面電動巴士、2040要全面電動小客車跟摩托車，但是我們電從哪裡來？要滿足這些電動載具的電要從哪裡來？而且如果要滿足這些電動載具的話，請問要幾個發電廠？是火力發電廠，還是核能發電廠，還是綠能發電廠？要什麼時候建好？我們現在2050講的……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，國際大廠來臺灣設廠，很多都是需要綠電的……"],["林委員沛祥：對，如果是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：他們願意來設廠，都表示他們對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力是有信心的……"],["林委員沛祥：院長，這就是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定要對他們負責。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我要的這個資料，當初是龔明鑫，龔秘書長在不在？那時候他當國發會主委，我在他面前所質詢的……"],["卓院長榮泰：劉鏡清主委在。"],["林委員沛祥：對，所以這個請會後給我資料，兩個月了，資料還沒有到，我希望在一、兩個禮拜之內……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我請國發會把相關資料能夠迅速補給委員。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員質詢，謝謝卓院長備詢。麻煩請行政單位把林委員所索取的資料如實送達，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第53位牛煦庭委員質詢。","對不起，牛委員對不起，打攪。","現在跟議場報告，在我們議場來參訪的是美國南達科他州的州議會訪問團，在我們樓上，我們掌聲歡迎，welcome everybody！謝謝。","我們接下來繼續請牛煦庭委員，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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:44.652,"text":"主席有請卓議員長。再請卓議員長備詢。林委員你有沒有站中間一點?我先問一下。對。好。林委員好。卓議員長。我本席是只做一任基隆市議員就直接來到立法院,但是從政的初衷跟之前做議員是完全一樣的。我認為說實踐我的政見,"},{"start":47.284,"end":51.767,"text":"本席曾經有個政見叫做老幼共託,也就是說讓年長者跟小朋友"},{"start":66.561,"end":67.041,"text":"所以說而且再加上說"},{"start":91.62,"end":106.708,"text":"現在的年長者,65歲的年長者,一定要退休的年長者,遠比30年前50歲的勞動者來得年輕,來得有活力,對社會來得有更有價值。單純讓他們放棄這個人力資源是很可惜的。"},{"start":108.7,"end":124.029,"text":"但是這個老幼共託的政策遇到一個很大的算是在配套措施上面遇到一個很大的問題就是說不管是年長者還是小朋友就是7歲以下的小朋友都會遇到都會有希望有這個護理人員的幫忙"},{"start":125.029,"end":137.586,"text":"那我們也知道臺灣的護理人員護理師的不足這問題其實已經不是在臺灣獨特有的現象而是在全球的先進國家都遇到這樣的狀況而"},{"start":139.889,"end":140.149,"text":"應該接近19萬吧?"},{"start":164.931,"end":180.898,"text":"抱歉是30萬那現在真正在第一線的只有18萬18.6萬18萬6千人那變成是說只有六成的人願意有護理師執照可是願意執業但是在2030年我們看到資料2030年我們會需要將近24到26萬的護理師來照顧我們整個醫療系統"},{"start":187.601,"end":215.176,"text":"所以說這樣一加一減的話在最近這幾年我們就必須要增加五萬五千到七萬四千的護理人力才能滿足我們的需求那我也知道從去年開始本來是一年兩次的護理師考試增加成為一年三次而兩次護理師的考試我也聽說這個也的確蠻驚駭的啦七月份的考試"},{"start":216.317,"end":223.623,"text":"不過我更想要知道的是說因為我們現在每年報考護理學校的報考人數只有2100然後經過4年的學校教育我們的考取率平均只有7乘5"},{"start":240.518,"end":260.798,"text":"那所以說每年頂多加1500人,全臺灣只加1500個可以合格的護理師。變成是說在衛福部的未來10年互產人力供需評估研究裡面指出,在2024年我們將短缺15000人到24000人,換句話說馬上護理師荒就要重來。"},{"start":265.242,"end":279.372,"text":"那在去年的9月28號在第3873次會議中合備護理人力政策準備12項策略計畫中,我想請問院長,你們到目前落實了幾項?"},{"start":284.793,"end":295.079,"text":"第一項是護理人員培育嘛那其實說真的一年只有2100個新生未來還會再下降因為我們少子化那想請問具體的我們衛福部的政策會是什麼呢"},{"start":295.949,"end":315.772,"text":"謝謝委員。為服從護理人才培育跟護理人力的留任跟改善護理三大方向,也提出了12項的策略。那有一次我必須向我跟委員報告,13年前當我們在推動對全國護理師人員的獎勵,設立台灣的南丁格爾獎的時候,那時候護理從業人第一線的大概只有12、3萬。"},{"start":317.113,"end":336.373,"text":"那到現在經過10多年他已經進步增加到18萬到19萬這個數目當然比我們現在預期的還要低但是我覺得這個進展是有的如果我們大家起力的推動再加上衛福部現在這個三大面向12項策略能夠齊頭並進我覺得我們可以在更短的時間內"},{"start":337.592,"end":340.334,"text":"趕上或接近需要的護理人員。"},{"start":367.852,"end":395.864,"text":"打到的我們有獎勵的措施,請部長答覆一下。我們除了推動夜班護理人員獎勵,三班護病比的達標的也有獎勵。不是,我是說哪幾家醫院已經達到1比6的護病比啦?那比如說包括醫學中心,包括區域醫院,包括地區醫院,你們9個月統計下來之後哪些醫院合格的達到1比6?我只是想知道這個事情。部長可以回答我這個問題嗎?"},{"start":399.862,"end":416.039,"text":"如果現在回答不出來,麻煩一下,因為我本席在這120天之內,我不知道幾次每一個部都跟我講會後兩個禮拜一個月之內資料到我手上,但是都沒有。等一下我可能會針對這些部會來去做進一步的評論,好不好?"},{"start":421.205,"end":440.725,"text":"區議院跟地區議院互併比能夠把它統計出來如果有達到的我們依照獎勵沒有達到的我們要求他趕快的補足同樣的因為這都是12項當初在選舉的時候我們提要全面的補足因為現在人力是有缺口的我們盡量從人力的培育上面來增加從考用的制度"},{"start":440.965,"end":456.06,"text":"我現在甚至在問那就是既然我已經講到1比6互併比的話那我想請問三班互併比標準的訂定跟落實請問部長你們一定好了嗎?什麼時候可以跟全國副理事講說我們已經準備好了?"},{"start":458.308,"end":463.893,"text":"我再問一次,第四項,這12項政策是我們這次競選團隊提出來,針對全國護理師所提出來的。第四項,三班互併標準的定定跟落實。請問,我們行政團隊擬定好了嗎?什麼時候可以給全國護理師這個福音呢?"},{"start":485.541,"end":509.949,"text":"因為老實講我不想先破題因為當初這個事情是說2026年三班戶病法要入法然後這是在選前講的選前滿口答應選後馬上忘記基本上我很不希望這樣去討論民生議題用這樣聳動的話語去講事情但是今天你們回答我的態度就讓我這樣認為這件事情好像是真的是嗎"},{"start":510.93,"end":531.978,"text":"我是跟委員報告我剛剛說過從人力的培育上面我們要從考用的制度先來精進才能有辦法多增加一些護理的從業人員同時也希望說剛剛30萬到18、9萬的這個數字能不能讓更多的護理人員願意投入到第一線所以設了很多對於他的待遇的優化職場環境的友善等等這個都持續在做"},{"start":534.259,"end":555.809,"text":"謝謝院長我知道您想把這件事做好因為這個不關意識形態不關政治是全然的民生議題而且台灣不管是基隆這個高齡化城市還是台灣已經邁入超高齡化國家而且我們搞不好要跟全世界想互視這個可能也是我們會遇到的困境那我在這邊也順便你剛剛都講到待遇了嘛"},{"start":556.289,"end":576.103,"text":"那老實講出得起猴子出得起香蕉子找得到猴子出得起牛肉才找得到獅子嘛那我在這邊也必須要跟我們這些白板小夜急診的護理師講話其實老實講我如果說我前一陣子那個因為家人還是一些卡有事情我就"},{"start":576.463,"end":577.064,"text":"很辛苦很辛苦"},{"start":592.714,"end":621.484,"text":"我們記得前一陣子我記得有修法就是針對說護理師如果被病人被病人用被病人打的時候這個要入這個要加上刑責這我完全認同但是就算是這樣做的事情這樣的這樣的法修了之後其實我們對護理師的尊重還是嚴重不足尤其是當我們情緒不好的時候他們工作量本來就大那他們的待遇又不夠好的時候那如果剛剛還是回到那句話我們一天到晚出我們一天到晚給香蕉當然請得到猴子嘛"},{"start":621.724,"end":646.95,"text":"甚至我們只給他花生,連猴子都不來吃啊。我這樣講的比喻是說,其實我們護理師,他們所屬這一行,他們都是想救人,想要幫人,想要希望說這個護理,我們台灣這個健保,我們每個人被照顧到會照顧得更好。但是巧婦無米難為垂,更何況基本待遇都不夠的時候,我這邊強烈要求就是說,請不要同工不同酬。"},{"start":647.95,"end":662.238,"text":"也就是醫學中心跟區域中心跟地區醫院這方面我其實已經在基層聽到太多護理師跟我講這件事情了同工不同酬甚至說難道真的大夜班的累是體質上的累"},{"start":663.078,"end":679.604,"text":"但是,如果是白班就不累嗎?白班的時候你又要負責開刀,你要負責巡訪,你要負責做一切的事情,要負責打藥。這些全部都是白班的護理師需要去注重的。但是,我們現在那時候看到的政策就是大夜班很可憐,小夜班很可憐,白班就很輕鬆。錯!"},{"start":681.817,"end":703.803,"text":"我想部長應該對這件事最有體會。非常謝謝委員對護理人員的關心。因為我也是臨床幾十年的醫師,跟護理人員是一起團隊作戰。他們的辛苦,其實不論是白班、夜班,都是非常的辛苦。白班每一個職場有他不同的"},{"start":704.543,"end":729.89,"text":"反縱所以我們在研議這個其實我們有一直持續研議醫院白班反縱方面怎麼樣來給他津貼但是這個反縱的部分就剛剛聽政務委員你所說所提到的一馬公一馬公一反縱一馬公一反縱所以在定義上面我們會再做詳細的研議跟我們最近也都約相關的婦女團體來討論希望能夠定出一個大家滿意的一個標準"},{"start":731.27,"end":758.296,"text":"謝謝部長因為我再講一次這是你們第8項裡面講的夜班費的獎勵那我在這邊搶業了求政策不能讓護理師之間產生對立因為獎勵金應該都要有嘛我們台灣說真的我們的護理師平均平均那個經常性薪資好像是4萬3千還是4萬4千而已其實以他的工時來講可能連最低我覺得跟最低工時差不多了其實而且他們要做"},{"start":759.216,"end":759.236,"text":"﹚廣告"},{"start":782.794,"end":791.267,"text":"這個我覺得這個其實我不想跟其他人人家說什麼時候是國安危機什麼時候是國安危機但是這個的確是很迫切我們需要解決的問題"},{"start":792.625,"end":817.156,"text":"那這個...對不起還有我想請問一下在第10項跟第11項還是有關三班互併比的達標醫院應該有個三班互併比的達標的獎勵跟護理友善職場的獎勵我想這都是當初那個12項裡面講的那請問部長或請問院長獎勵方法是不是訂好了呢?那我們什麼時候看得到什麼時候可以實施?"},{"start":819.886,"end":842.315,"text":"我們優化護理職場的環境,落實三班互併比,這個其實在113年3月1日要實施。未來我們有爭取到有一個中長期的計畫,大概這個也通過預算,會來改善整個職場的一個環境。"},{"start":847.677,"end":861.302,"text":"我為什麼要去把這個檢視這邊因為我剛剛有提過說本來2026這都應該全面要進去但是我們沒有看到說我們其實在選舉在大選的時候我們聽到說三班互併筆要入法"},{"start":862.362,"end":887.959,"text":"目前來講我們似乎就是慢慢慢慢在做我現在聽到部長的回應我聽到院長的回應我們就知道說像這樣的事情其實是有是一步一步在做的但是請你們如果第一個如果能夠的話加快第二點讓早點讓我們知道這個遠比其他的事情更能夠讓病患跟護理師安心我們希望多一點的護理師回來到工作環境裡面但是我們不跟他們講說其實你們待遇會比未來好"},{"start":888.399,"end":912.586,"text":"甚至說我會直接建議院長將三班護病表直接納入所謂醫療機構的設置標準這個醫療機構設置標準不是是所謂的是醫療法授權給衛福部制定的法規命令只要衛福部願意就可以把這個三班護病表入法而且不需要等待我們立法院曠日廢時的修法程序基本上這樣比較能夠救急啦"},{"start":913.547,"end":938.681,"text":"我不知道院長您覺得怎麼樣呢?針對醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院三班互併比各有不同的數字的比例那這個部分應該是會列入將來對醫院評鑑重要的依據但是我說人力要將它補齊我們才有辦法真的做到否則各個醫院沒有辦法招募到這個足夠的護理人員這個三班互併比就是一個空的目標那現在我們有進程期程就會將它一一的補齊"},{"start":940.024,"end":967.368,"text":"我如果講到人力醫療的話其實某個程度上面全世界我想提醒院長一件事就是全世界都在搶護士喔全世界其實我想院長在您的高度上面應該很清楚的知道說美國在搶菲律賓的護士然後我記得日本、韓國也在針對護士有去說你護士跟企術型勞工來去做一定程度說如果你入籍多久之後我們會給你永久居留權甚至給你國籍"},{"start":967.828,"end":985.036,"text":"那我知道這個已經不是單單純純衛福部的事情那因為現在缺工的事情缺工的狀況是各行各業都有但是我會在這邊提醒院長您是行政院院長那您的任期我們其實我們不知道我希望說您能夠在您的任期之內好好的跟整個行政團隊來考慮說"},{"start":986.477,"end":987.677,"text":"人力的補充當然從國內培訓這個是最直接的"},{"start":1015.441,"end":1040.283,"text":"那如果有真的需要我們在經過跟社會的討論共識之後是不是會採用更好的方式那除了部長之外我想陳時中政委在這方面也應該就是大家可以信賴的一個對醫護關係醫護政策的一個專家跟這個專業的人士那我也請陳時中政委來負責來辦好這件事情其實這件事情我們一直在講護理護理護理就花到我們十幾分鐘可是其實藥師也一樣嚴重"},{"start":1041.98,"end":1068.282,"text":"其實藥師我記得藥師的合格率藥師考試合格率好像是百分之三十不到對吧那變成是說我們現在在臺灣是每一萬人就有十三才只有每一萬人只有十三位藥師服務那其實我想很好奇就請問說為什麼醫院卻常年聘不滿藥師呢我們比一般人那個一般的OECD國家來的高但是我們為什麼聘不滿藥師呢部長"},{"start":1071.435,"end":1073.897,"text":"二十幾趴這個比人家三分九還低啊?"},{"start":1082.895,"end":1087.878,"text":"其實這個專業人員的考試牽涉到是說那個專業團體尤其是老師們他們的一個堅持對他們專業的一個看法所以有時候我們常常溝通甚至我這邊在講啦就是我直接講比較具體一點的根據統計臺大臺北榮總這兩間龍頭醫學中心加起來缺的藥師就已經超過50名"},{"start":1112.915,"end":1113.516,"text":"請問部長或請問院長為什麼"},{"start":1126.708,"end":1145.61,"text":"這應該跟他這個在工作所遇到的對工作的大家對工作的尊敬跟他工作的環境應該有相當的關係我們也希望說在不降低整個業界水準的情況底下我們來精進考試的制度執照的取得應該顧慮到他過去在學校期間那麼辛苦的求學過程"},{"start":1146.03,"end":1161.159,"text":"是不是能夠用這樣的方式來讓更多的人他能夠經過學程之後投入到這個職場裡面?整個醫療系統裡面醫護要三者缺一不可變成是雖然你醫師夠但是如果你護士不夠基本上醫師也難做事那你就算"},{"start":1161.579,"end":1183.435,"text":"一是護士夠,要是不給藥,基本上治療也是很有限。問題是說我們現在台灣的健保,我們一直講說我們的公衛是在全球排名前幾名,我們的公共治療是全球排名很好的,但是我們自己難道現在遇到人員不足的時候,我們如果還是說OK,我們還是在自滿說我們台灣的健保全世界最好,台灣的醫療全世界最有名,但是我們不去面對現在的問題的話,其實這個"},{"start":1185.496,"end":1187.337,"text":"謝謝委員,我也跟部長談過我們應該朝向讓一些替代役能夠投入到護理的工作或者其他的這個"},{"start":1210.796,"end":1210.936,"text":"請放一下影片。"},{"start":1232.049,"end":1248.439,"text":"謝謝部長。院長我跟你是第二次見面,第一次見面是在基隆市的市場,我也會記得你那時候幫人家站臺。但是這個市場是其實你就知道基隆其實這種庶民經濟是非常非常的盛行的。"},{"start":1249.246,"end":1268.989,"text":"那基隆市的最大的市場叫做仁愛市場那目前來講也是快變成跟北投一樣這種傳統二樓市場改建的非常成功但是尷尬的地方是呢他們裡面500個攤商改建後37年然後沒有冷氣不是說沒有冷氣這個是我這個禮拜六過去看"},{"start":1269.91,"end":1280.329,"text":"我實際在那邊走而且11點半還沒有人潮只到一半多一點到12點半只會人更多然後就已經體感就超過37度而且越來越熱"},{"start":1281.223,"end":1304.197,"text":"那這個時候說真的我知道傳統市場這方面的議題應該講起來是我們經濟部那經濟部的話老實說我在剛進國會的時候我也知道說我對這個老實講有時候在看這些預算的時候重新再去做審視整個預算的時候我也很好奇就是說經濟部產發署跟技術師兩個單位一年補助各項產業就高達350億"},{"start":1310.7,"end":1321.778,"text":"三百五十億的話我曾經算過如果一條基隆的這個基隆捷運加台中捷運的半條一年這個是十幾年的工程三百五十億一年"},{"start":1323.474,"end":1344.528,"text":"這個十分錢就夠了,那我當然是這樣不能西瓜不能跟梨子比我很清楚,不過同樣是說都是庶民經濟,剛剛我們看的影片的時候也看到說在禮拜六的早上11點半,那其實還沒有算很多的時候,我們就在整個傳統市場上面看到人擠人,整個整個,基本上如果說部長或哪一天院長如果來齊龍,我帶你去那邊走走你就知道了。"},{"start":1345.549,"end":1346.99,"text":"林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥 林沛祥"},{"start":1372.051,"end":1384.387,"text":"可是那個體溫那個體感溫度還是降不下來而且裡面的冷氣每一台基本上有的開有的關但是冷氣都輸不來那我們一方面來講用電老實講這樣對用電其實蠻傷的一台30幾一個市場30幾年來冷氣都沒有換過"},{"start":1390.555,"end":1419.354,"text":"那我說真的我想說在這邊也代表基隆也代表我們整個也代表基隆代表基層我是基隆的民意代表我是基隆的嬰兒我是基站出來的所以我會希望代表基隆代表基層現請我們經濟部幫個忙在這邊用我自己總質詢的時間那請問部長或院長你們覺得這個忙30幾年的一個大型傳統市場500多個攤位都沒有冷氣可以吹而且現在還沒有到最熱的時候那是不是可以見請我們行政團隊"},{"start":1420.637,"end":1421.543,"text":"苦民所苦呢?"},{"start":1423.265,"end":1450.595,"text":"各位委員報告十年來基隆的改變我想國人都看得到它有很多地方過去比較不是那麼方便現在都變成很潮流的地方很明亮的地方如果能用這種觀念來改變的話我想對基隆的市民來看都是歡迎的那這個過程我相信基隆市政府應該扮演極重要的角色未來我們是不是一同跟市政府來做理解跟一起努力讓地方也能夠"},{"start":1451.295,"end":1451.315,"text":"部長"},{"start":1475.129,"end":1489.819,"text":"報告委員,你這個案子我們後來有回去,我們有檢討,我有責成我們相關單位,應該有跟你報告。那我們現在是準備用這個節能減碳的方法來幫助這個市場的改建。"},{"start":1500.663,"end":1518.776,"text":"那這個部分我想大概所有的這個設備我們會由廠家來負責。那大概市場你們大概最後的結果可能你的廠商他們繳的電費可能還更省。"},{"start":1519.735,"end":1547.708,"text":"好那我其實在這邊就已經講到省電省電的議題那其實郭部長您也辛苦了啦最近這個整個政治氛圍跟您的專業跟您的過去背景不太一樣但是我也在這邊想請教郭部長因為老實講這個NVIDIA剛剛離開黃仁勳剛剛離開那他離開那我個人因為我個人是在看整個整個情況之後在說看了所有報導之後發現說當然他離開的時候講到電力是最大的缺口"},{"start":1548.789,"end":1563.147,"text":"老實說這個我個人認為是如果能夠把NVIDIA的這個R&D Center就是把它的研發中心留在臺灣不管留在哪個城市我當然希望留在基隆市但是不管留在哪個城市對於臺灣都是好事"},{"start":1564.451,"end":1578.458,"text":"但是他自己也第一時間提出來了,電力的問題是很大的,是一個很大的concern,一個很大的issue。因為電力衝突中途是一回事。另外一方面是電力的價格也是一回事。"},{"start":1579.315,"end":1597.331,"text":"第三個是電力如何創造這些電力的來源也是一回事。電力的充足不充足我想已經有我們太多同事已經談到了。電力的價格因為如果說我們電力的價格比別人貴的話我想以一個全球佈局的公司可能不太願意在高成本的情況之下來臺灣設廠。"},{"start":1599.478,"end":1615.274,"text":"更何況還有電力的來源,剛剛應該是林代化委員有講到說臺灣的電力97%是來自於煤炭跟天然氣。那有一個問題其實如果是業界人都很關心就是CBAN。"},{"start":1616.161,"end":1644.124,"text":"就是明...如果記得沒錯的話是明年嘛明年歐盟就要對於臺灣客...對於臺灣的產品那個客...客與探稅對吧那CBAN的問題呢變成是說臺灣我們現在的探稅問題什麼現在探交易所探交易法探交易...執法是不是已經成型而且如何說我們臺灣先把這個稅探...這個稅錢先把它拿下來之後所以我們的產品到歐盟不用被...不用去客稅換句話說那如果R&D Center的NVIDIA的R&D Center來到臺灣那..."},{"start":1646.025,"end":1664.025,"text":"他的產品最後面出去的時候反而要被課碳稅,他們會不會因為這樣而不去做誘引進來,這我也很好奇。因為我們現在談到,我們當然是要NVIDIA過來,姑且不論國際政治因素這是他可能第一最大的風險。再來就是我們講的電力,再來還是講到說會不會有所謂的颱風跟地震。"},{"start":1667.829,"end":1689.13,"text":"臺風跟地震對NVIDIA來講是想要去考慮的事情。第一考慮到兩岸關係嘛。再來考慮到電力問題。可是電力就不是只有電力充不充足。電力的來源還有電力的價格。而且我們也知道NVIDIA它的整個電力的使用率是高的。這不是說只是我們現在隨便說1%、2%。因為你要去做出R&D的時候。"},{"start":1690.251,"end":1690.291,"text":"﹚林沛"},{"start":1709.887,"end":1714.788,"text":"報告委員這個NVIDIA他要的還是綠電所以我們現在是朝這個方向在努力也就是說我們發出來的綠電能夠滿足讓他們使用"},{"start":1739.486,"end":1759.416,"text":"來得及嗎?應該是來得及。來得及嗎?因為我老實講綠電過去8年讓我們不是只有本席,我想普遍的國人都因為綠電的發展的速度感到失望。所以說未來的話如何能夠趕得及讓國人符合期待,而且是好像本來在明年就要到15%或15%還20%,不過現在"},{"start":1762.398,"end":1762.798,"text":"但是我們電從哪裡來?"},{"start":1790.612,"end":1793.215,"text":"要滿足這些電動載具的電從哪裡來?而且如果要滿足這些電動載具的話請問要幾個發電廠?是火力發電廠還是核能發電還是綠能發電廠?要什麼時候建好?"},{"start":1805.316,"end":1807.638,"text":"國際大廠來臺灣設廠很多都是需要綠電。他們願意來設廠就表示他對我們綠電的潛能跟開發綠電的能力他們是有信心的。我們一定要對他們負責。這就是說我要這個資料當初是廣明星廣明署長在不在?"},{"start":1825.031,"end":1832.956,"text":"那時候他當國發會主委我在他面前在質詢的所以說這個資料會後給我資料兩個月了資料還沒有到我希望在一兩個禮拜之內"}]}},{"id":"154081","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154081","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529af714b6e9c575642e84a337f76c37b5ea49bfab79a0d782af2c0accd11298d9845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"14:46:45 - 15:15:44","影片長度":"00:28:59","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T14:46:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T15:15:44+08:00","duration":1739,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":48,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（14時46分）有請我們行政院院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，我們從總統520就職的講稿到您施政的簡報，我覺得獨缺一項，我也不曉得政府現在面對少子化這個議題是什麼樣的看法？它是已經嚴重到稱為所謂的國安議題呢？還是少子化國安議題，這是一個民間的認知，而政府不認為它是一個國安議題？院長，你怎麼看少子化？因為在520就職的講稿到您的施政報告都缺了對少子化的因應。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，少子化不僅是個人、是家庭、是社會，更是國家面臨的重大問題，我們已經提升到國安的層次，所以我們對於……"],["林委員岱樺：您說這是國安的層次了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的0到6歲、0到22歲，都有相當多各個不同的補助措施跟具體的作為在裡面。"],["林委員岱樺：好，本席就要跟你檢討這個補助的措施，我們花了很多錢，一年平均1,200億不等，到現在執行五年多，從107年到113年，今年是少子化因應計畫的截止年，也將近花了五千多億了，一年1,200億，現在第五年也花了將近五千多億了，但是我們少子化的狀況有沒有減少？沒有！反而更形嚴重。所以我們重點在2018年的時候，這個數據為什麼它是國安議題？2018年的時候，我國的死亡人數已經正式高於出生人數了，而且在去年2023年的世界競爭力年報，也把人口成長率列為本國的弱勢項目，所以在本席辦公室這邊，我們瞭解這個是政府的少子化對策計畫，從107年到113年。我提出這樣的一個表格是國發會這邊提供的，每個勞動人口撫養人數比數值是越來越大、壓力越來越大，什麼叫做勞動人口？依照本國的定義是15歲到65歲，這樣的總撫養比，這個表格從2020年到16年後的2040年，所謂總撫養比當中，今年的計算是我花100元，在撫養小孩方面，100元會有17.39元是花在撫養小孩，而撫養老人，我是花了27.89元，也就是2024年今年我們國家對於國人的總撫養比，我花100元，有45.28元是在撫養幼兒及在撫養老人。一直到2040年16年後的撫養比，我賺100元，我有66.99元是全部花在扶養幼兒跟老人。幼兒的部分我們當然是一直在遞減，就是從17.39元一直降到15.82元，但是我老人的扶養比，是從今年的27.89元預估會在16年後達到51.17元。","再來看，除了這個對於我們人口數少，連我們的勞動人口也在減少的情況之下，他所要負擔的扶幼跟扶老比也大幅地成長，所以我們從人口結構來看，其實是國安議題，與其要講說我國少子化是國安議題，本身我們整個臺灣的人口結構就是一個國安議題。但我今天重點是在少子化，我們的少子化，從110年的總生育率0.98，一直到112（前）年的統計是0.86，所以平均生0.98個小孩，一直降到每年一個人生0.865個小孩。","這樣的預算由107年到113年分了77個分項，我們花了五千多億，大部分都是用在哪裡呢？津貼補助、初期的育兒津貼、托育及就學補助，後期是放在住宅補貼，我們1,200億每年就是花在這上面。本席認為要增加生育率，我們對婦女在產前的時候，是不是應該多一些支援？包括他的心理諮商、生理的理療、產前的準備假，以及生育所得稅的減免，這個行政院是不是應該納入我們的政策規劃？","我這邊就具體建議，也請院長參考一下，新加坡他們最新對於生育的特色作法。第一個，因為我們現在晚婚，所以導致生育率當然也降低，所以我鼓勵他早婚的情況之下，讓21到35歲的單身女性冷凍卵子，這是新加坡的作法，政府補助費用。第二個，改善生育的環境，母親的有薪產假是16週，我們臺灣現在是8週，父親的有薪陪產假，我們是1週，在新加坡是4週。","第三個，這是我認為真的可以借鏡的，所得稅的減免。針對職業婦女的部分，如果是生第一胎，新加坡的作法是減他總收入的15%，這是減稅，第二胎則減20%，第三胎減25%，最高可減到60%，針對職業婦女。我認為這在本國是可以擴大研議的，只要是他的總收入，只要這個家庭生了第一胎，我的總收入，不管是個人所得或者是家庭的總收入等等相關稅額的減免，是以整個家庭、父母之間的總收入來做減免，我覺得本國是可以這樣做，不是只限於職業婦女。","第四個，40歲以下的婦女指定公立醫院的人工受孕。人工受孕是很貴的，他們政府是有補助到75%，這四項我都認為本國應該在你每年花1,200億下個階段的時候，所以我說你到底認不認定它是國安議題？您新的內閣上來，是不是有再一次6年對少子化的因應計畫呢？現在本席是看不到的。","這個青年住宅應該納入配婚年齡，包括子女數，我都應該讓少子化跟購屋住宅相連結，所以我現在針對新加坡的這四項作法，跟我們青年住宅納入少子化的這個獎勵，不知道院長認為，您有沒有要啟動下階段少子化的因應政策？這是第一個。第二個，您的做法是不是願意在這幾項當中也納入研議呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，當然其他國家有進步、好的、任何的規定、規範，我們都可以拿來引用，但是我國現在對於育兒津貼有實質性的補助，也對第一胎、第二胎都有更增加的補助。從生育所得稅來減免的話，是不是完全符合所得高低者之間的公平性，我覺得這個應該進一步去研議，各國有不同的社會結構。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，既然是國安議題，就要用非常手段因應。現在你做了任何的公共建設，包括講到我們現在的國軍，以後也沒有人要當國軍了，因為我們少子化，哪來的國軍呢？我們現在是工業也缺人、服務業也缺人、農業也缺人，連公務系統，要進來的新進人員也缺人，公務人員也在缺人啦！所以這個部分如果你說是國安議題的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：國軍，我們現在提高他的……"],["林委員岱樺：沒關係啦！院長，我是提點你，既然你都認為這是國安議題，可是你並沒有在你的施政政策當中去規劃到，這是本席作為一個國會議員要提點你的。","下一個議題，國營事業應該攜手穩定能源的供應，我特別聚焦在天然氣，我們90%的能源是仰賴進口，在明年的時候，我們天然氣的發電占比是50%，所以既然我們的天然氣都是從國外進口，而它的占比達50%的時候，本席認為除強化能源自主、多元分散採購以降低能源的風險外，在我們現在特殊的地緣政治下，運輸模式成為國家能源穩定的潛在漏洞。","我們小科普一下，目前國際物資的運送有兩種，一個叫DES，一個叫FOB，DES就是賣方，現在臺灣跟卡達來購買，用DES就是船由礦主來提供，這個有個特色，只要這個貨沒在本國的港口卸貨，這全部的貨還是屬於礦主的，沒有下貨前都是屬於礦主的，這句話是重點；如果我們改為FOB的話，變成是我只要訂貨，我從對方礦主的港口一提貨，就是屬於我方的。現在中油所用的就是DES，完全掌握在礦主的手上。現在礦主用了他的船之後，船是他的，他當然可以自己做決定，所以在商業交易當中，船東、貨主、船長是有權利尊重當時船長的當機決定，可以拒絕進入到本國的，所以當外籍商用船遭遇到極端的狀況，它可以全數返航，不進入到本國卸貨，賣家，也就是天然氣的礦主，他們是可以免責的。我們國家的供電有50%的天然氣，完全就是掌握在國外人的手上。","我提出兩個議題，請您事後瞭解一下，在我們多次軍演當中，我們天然氣運輸進入本國的狀況是什麼？繞道，還是在外海停滯，還是返回原本地？本席所瞭解的，目前就是繞道及停滯外海，但是我想還是由你來瞭解一下，至少瞭解這個的嚴重性，我其實是在這幾次軍演當中發現，我國面臨到天然氣竟然有這麼高的不可控；另外，面對軍演或軍事封鎖，國際也有案例，還是只有自己國籍的船才願意運輸我們國家的必要物資，只要是外籍船隻，它一定都帶著我們訂購的物資返回原本地，我講的是國際都有案例，當國家遇到軍演，甚至軍事封鎖的時候，誰給發生戰爭的國家物資？只有自己本國籍的船，不管是小麥、稻米，甚至我們現在講的煤、天然氣都是，這個當中，國安會自己也出來講話，這都是公開報導，520之後，臺灣面對軍演這件事情只會與日俱增，但我們天然氣是全部都來自進口啊！","另外一個議題，我們購買天然氣有長約及即期短約，長約就是10年到20年，即期短約是每日到1年，長約是以期貨來約定價格，即期短約是以市場價格，在俄烏戰爭的時候，我們的短約是天價的。不管是長約或短約，都可以用買方（FOB）或者賣方（DES）來執行。我講到價格，因為我們地緣政治的關係，我一定要主張是FOB，這件事情要比照日本，我們至少30%要是自己的國籍船運送的，國氣國運，但是這個價格差別有多大呢？如果是依據日經報導，這是日本的報導，如果是俄烏戰爭的時候，天然氣的短期租約，太平洋航線可以飆到每船、每日32.5萬美元，而現在2024年6月國際短約的租金是20萬，所以只要是短期的，而且是現貨的，就是這樣的高價；但是現在中油只有4艘是採我們的國籍船在執行，它的長約價格是以期貨來算，每艘、每天是8萬美元。你看8萬美元跟32.5萬美元，跟現況的飆漲是20萬，差了快3倍到4倍不等。","所以本席是具體主張，因為時間的關係，我直接跳到我的建議方案，過去都是中油說，好，我來運；台電在今年說它也可以運。過去中油為什麼反對台電運？因為它怕台電運了天然氣來，要搶食國內的天然氣市場，所以它就把這個阻絕掉了。只要開放讓台電也購買，因為他們的發言人也公開講他們可以購買，我就把現在中油採這種現貨採購的30%全部移為台電來用，而且限定台電只能作為發電所用，原來70%採長約的部分，中油繼續做，你運回來國內之後，還是可以做你的國內天然氣市場。","現在的問題是還要加上航港局，我們要國氣國運國家隊，經濟部跟交通部就要偕同兩大國營事業攜手合作，對於台電自行採購限定它發電的用途，共同使用中油目前的港口跟接收站，以及我們交通部航港局的國氣國運政策也要鼓勵我們國內的航商，我們國內就三大國內航商，我們的政府要鼓勵國內的航商以及專業的學校，針對天然氣運輸船隻及增加天然氣的訓練課程，加入國氣國運的行列。我們的船也可以跟中油目前在高雄的永安跟臺中的天然氣共同培訓人才。","我講到一點，我們現在的人才，目前國籍船只有4艘，執行400航次當中的144航次，當中只有4艘國籍船，我報告院長，我用報告表示它很嚴重，因為只有1個船長是臺灣國籍而已，還有12個船員是本國籍，其他全部都是外籍船，所以今天我要增加30%的採購，即中油目前的現貨採購部分改為我自己的國籍船來運，我需要增加497人，以及再增加16艘國籍船隻，所以我要建船，或者是我要到國際訂貨、訂船隻，包括人員也要訓練，這些都是要現在啟動，要不然有50%的天然氣是完全由外國在掌控。我現在是沒有具體的數據去呈現，所以我才請你一定要事後去瞭解，天然氣在軍演當中已經有面臨斷氣的不可控因素，所以院長您怎麼看我們國氣國運的國家隊這個議題？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝！首先，軍演的時候畢竟有各種想定，我們一定是採取最安全、可靠的方式，來維繫臺灣所需要的各種物資，這個當然包括在內。中油過去慣例都是用DES賣方負責的方式來運送，我所知道，中油也漸漸在朝用FOB的方式，但是它也建立了自己的系統；另外，台電將來在臺中以及協和電廠，它必須自己要進天然氣（LNG），它也應該有新的方式可以來進行。部長能不能瞭解到未來中油、台電在船隻運送方式，跟我們這個條件的設定底下有沒有新的作為？"],["林委員岱樺：這樣好不好，院長，你已經有明確性的指示，所以對於國氣國運國家隊這件事情，你認為應不應該做？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在中油已經朝向這方面在進行，台電有新的發展……"],["林委員岱樺：院長，我現在會提出質詢，是我已經花了兩年時間，中油才龜速的同意航港局說，我願意接受國氣國運這件事情，因為它願意把天然氣納入國家的……等同煤、炭，或是等同米、麥，甚至小麥等這些民生物資。所以等了兩年，本席質詢了兩年，他才去做這件事情，所以你只要明確告訴我……"],["卓院長榮泰：人力的問題，我們要進一步的補充才有辦法做到。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，這樣子啦！你只要同意國氣國運國家隊，這個名詞要由國家來建置，它才有可能跨部會的來做，經濟部，包括人員的培訓，包括兩大部會，包括交通部都要納入，這件事情你要主責給誰？是要給……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的國家隊如果承擔起這樣的責任，那當然是最好，但我們要有一段時間來建置整個運輸的能量……"],["林委員岱樺：你剛剛說你要主責給誰？是秘書長來統籌這件事情，專案列管嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：或是請兩位部長來協調，因為這個是主管，這個是交通。"],["林委員岱樺：兩位部長是要經濟部還是交通部？"],["卓院長榮泰：目的事業主管機關。"],["林委員岱樺：好，那就交通部，部長，既然院長在這邊直接裁示，就是由您主責，本席是要求固定以專案的方式建置起國氣國運國家隊，而且是朝著本席這樣的建議方案來執行。"],["卓院長榮泰：目的事業主管機關方面，中油跟台電都是經濟部的。"],["林委員岱樺：好，我們就期待。部長可以回應，針對這樣的建置，你可以一個月內提出相關的規劃嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會再請教委員您的想法。"],["林委員岱樺：我們就朝向一個月好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["林委員岱樺：最後一個議題就是眷村文化的資產，展現臺灣多元的歷史。從它的起源背景，眷村住民也可以說是在1949年人類近代當中最大的遷徙，也是臺灣400年歷史來最大的文化融合。講到臺灣，這400年來臺灣是非常豐富的，從原住民、荷蘭、日本、閩、客、眷村住民，一直到現在進行式的新住民，眷村是臺灣特有的歷史文化遺產，起源於1940年末到1950年代，政府為了解決軍眷住房的問題而興建，當然，眷村文化在語言、飲食、建築等方面都具有獨特性，也豐富了臺灣文化的多樣性。我們過去從眷村改建到眷村文化，這當中到底有沒有價值創造呢？是有的，從眷改1.0的眷村改建到眷改2.0的保存眷村文化，我們透過資產的運用、土地的活化、地方政府的合作經營，我們竟然提前一年半全數清償了716億，表示眷村改建到眷村文化的保存是可以創造價值的，它不是社會的負債。","我們從過去的粗暴改建到現在文化保存的轉變，修復專業是文化資產保護的重要環節，需要專業的知識和技術，所以國防部的軍服處目前有6位具有古蹟修復工程工地主任專任證照的軍職人員，但是3年前有20位，現在降到6位。在這當中，目前我們的眷村永續工作其實有這四項，我們有51處，其中13處還是在文化園區輔訪、37處是文化資產活化，以及繼續巡清維護文化資產跟建立平臺，其中真的在做的只有下面這一項，叫巡清維護文化資產。盤點出來這51處當中，有國定古蹟、市定古蹟、縣定古蹟、歷史建築、文化景觀、聚落建築、考古遺址，但這51處當中只有少數是有空間活化的，有幾個案例是平日遊客絡繹不絕的，包括臺北的四四南村、臺中的信義新村、高雄的黃埔新村，這是有空間活化的，但大部分就是閒置，就是建築物改建完後就閒置在那邊。而這51處當中唯一一處尚未全面啟動眷村文化創新工程的就在高雄的海軍左營眷村，海軍左營眷村是全國最大單一軍種的眷村，保存面積有59公頃，但目前只修復了10%，還有九成的眷村仍封圍待修，也就是閒置在那邊。我拍了幾張照片，左邊的是左營眷村，院長跟部長你們看看，左邊這個是這樣的破舊，右邊是黃埔新村，同樣在高雄，你看上圖是學校老師帶著同學出來，下圖是我的爸爸媽媽帶著小朋友出遊，有活化就是這樣，一樣在高雄黃埔新村，一個是閒置、落魄不堪，而且還要讓它繼續落魄，這是封園待修的左營眷村。在我具體要求之前，本席認為眷村文化是我的國際亮點，這句話要聽清楚：眷村文化是我的國際亮點，也就是我把51處整個包裹起來，向聯合國或者等同聯合國認證的世界歷史遺址基金會申請，提高我眷村文化的國際知名度，然後來保存跟傳承，讓它有更多資源跟支持，而且藉著眷村也提高臺灣的國際知名度，讓更多人知道臺灣的眷村文化，進而提升國際影響力。其實澎湖也有一個漁村是自己向世界歷史遺址基金會申請，所以這個部分我們臺灣是有前例的，臺灣擁有全世界唯一的眷村文化資產，我們應該讓它同時具有全民國防教育跟國際觀光價值兩個功能。","在此本席具體要求，請行政院專案列管，我希望秘書長能夠專案定時召開會議，要做幾件事情，因為這是跨部會工作，涉及國防部、文化部及交通部。第一，國防部要做什麼事呢？國防部要向世界歷史遺址基金會提出申請，按照澎湖的案例，他們其實是準備了八個月，所以目前只要國防部啟動，最多一年就可以完成申請的相關準備作業。第二，文化部要跟國防部共同合作，為什麼要秘書長？因為這要花錢，所以還涉及主計單位，到底國防部要花多少錢，文化部要花多少錢，整個盤整出來整修費用，希望一個月內能提出相關規劃。另外交通部的部分，本席要求國際旅展要納入我們的眷村文化，讓我國在國外參展的臺灣國際館裡，其中有一項就是眷村文化，這是對交通部的要求。","最後，我也希望研議請國防部增加有古蹟修復專業執照的軍職人員，這樣才能夠維護我這51處未來要向聯合國世界遺址基金會申請的這樣一個全國的、全世界的世界遺址，所以有關它的維護，相關古蹟修復專業人員是要提升的，院長，你怎麼看這個議題？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常佩服委員對於眷村文化的關心，我覺得它是對我們生活的融合、情感的融合、社會的融合及文化的融合很重要的一環，國防部因為是所有眷村原來的管理者，應該要有這樣的觀念，把眷村文化活化再利用，但是整個過程文化部應該要加上很多文化底蘊跟文化的設計，讓它成為現代文化的一環，這樣它往國際走也才會有其價值，所以我會請這兩個部會密切聯繫，將剛剛委員所講的左營海軍眷村……"],["林委員岱樺：那主責單位是國防部還是文化部？"],["卓院長榮泰：各個有不同的單位，我覺得精髓應該在文化部。"],["林委員岱樺：所以是文化部主責，然後它定期開……我的觀念很清楚，既然是跨部會，就要有一個人主責，至於到底是秘書長主責，還是政委主責，就由院長指示，我都沒有意見，現在如果是交由文化部主責，那麼文化部就要把這個專案執行下去，部長這邊要定期以專案方式邀國防部、交通部研商，然後列管今天本席所講的這些事情，院長，所以您還是要交由文化部來處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：請李部長簡單答復，好不好？"],["林委員岱樺：好，來。"],["李部長遠：其實我們在高雄的眷村整頓大概花了12億，而且我個人覺得，在戰後的建築裡面，眷村建築的確是大部分人的記憶，這點剛剛委員也有提到，把它們全部整合在一起，成為一個很奇特的景觀，可以重新呈現第二次世界大戰臺灣當時的狀態，我覺得這個點子很好，我們會來執行。"],["林委員岱樺：好，那您大概什麼時候會提出這樣的方案？兩個月好不好？因為你要重新盤整這51處，既然是全國來看，它有很多軍種，剛才我也有提到，我再show一下這個表，在這51處當中，陸軍19處、海軍6處、空軍19處、後備3處、憲兵3處、軍情局1處，這就很有歷史後面一個底蘊的支持了，那我們就給你多一點時間，兩個月好嗎？現在6月不算，接下來是7月、8月，就是在下會期我們正式開議之前，希望能看到您的報告。以上，我們大家一起努力，謝謝院長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第52位林沛祥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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57.91,"end":178.65,"text":"我今年的計算是我花100塊我扶養小孩我會100塊有17.39是花在扶養小孩我扶養老人我是花了27.89也就是2024年今年我們國家對於國人的總扶養比我花100塊有45.28是在扶養"},{"start":182.534,"end":182.554,"text":"﹚林岱樺"},{"start":199.666,"end":202.768,"text":"就是我的從17.39一直降到15.82但是我的老人的撫養比是從今年的27.89預估會在16年後是達到51.17"},{"start":215.456,"end":230.856,"text":"所以這個那再來看除了這個對於我們人口數少的勞動連我們的人口的這個勞動人口也在減少的情況之下他所要負擔的扶幼跟扶老幣也大幅的成長"},{"start":231.997,"end":247.548,"text":"所以我們從人口結構其實是國安議題與其要講說我少子化是國安議題本身我們整個臺灣的人口結構就是一個國安議題好但我今天重點是在少子化我們的少子化這邊呢從110年的總生育率0.98一直到112年前年的統計是0.86所以平均生"},{"start":256.214,"end":261.201,"text":"0.98個小孩一直降到每年生0一個人生0.865個小孩"},{"start":263.643,"end":286.897,"text":"好,那這樣的預算呢是我們有107年到113年分的77個分項,我們花了5000多億,那大部分都是用在哪裡呢?經貼補助,初期的育兒經貼、托育及就學補助,後期我們是放在住宅補貼,我們1200億每年就是花在這上面。"},{"start":287.637,"end":302.469,"text":"好,那這個本行認為要增加生育率我們對婦女她在產前的時候是不是應該多一些資源包括她的心理諮商、生理的理療"},{"start":303.93,"end":320.097,"text":"產前的準備價以及生育所得稅的減免,這個行政院是不是應該納入我們的政策規劃?好,我這邊具體建議那也請院長參考一下新加坡他們最新的對於生育的特色做法。第一個,"},{"start":320.797,"end":345.758,"text":"因為我們現在晚婚所以導致我的生育率當然也降低所以我鼓勵他早婚的情況之下能夠讓他在21到35歲的單身女婿冷凍卵子這是新加坡的做法政府補助費用第二個改善生育的環境母親的有薪產價是16週我們台灣現在是8週那父親的有薪陪產價我們是一週在新加坡是4週"},{"start":346.799,"end":362.484,"text":"第三個這是我認為可以真的可以借鏡的所得稅的減免針對我職業婦女的部分我如果生第一胎新加坡的做法我減他總收入的15%減稅第二胎我減20%第三胎減25%最高可以達到減到60%針對職業婦女那我認為這可以在本國是可以擴大研議的"},{"start":371.246,"end":397.361,"text":"只要是他的總收你只要這個家庭收了生第一胎我的這個總收入的所得的不管是他個人所得或者是家庭的總收入等等相關的稅額的減免是一種這個整個家庭這個父母之間的一個總收入來做減免我覺得本國是可以做這樣不是只限於職業婦女第四個我40歲以下的婦女指定公立醫院的人工授育能夠說是很貴的"},{"start":398.982,"end":419.79,"text":"政府他們是有補助到75%這四項我都認為本國應該在你每年花1200億下個階段的時候所以我說你到底能不能認定它是國安議題那你新的內閣上來你是不是有再一次的6年的對少子化的因應計畫呢現在是本期看不到的以及我這個青年住宅"},{"start":420.47,"end":449.068,"text":"是應該納入我的配婚年齡包括子女數我都應該讓他跟我的這個少子化跟購屋住宅應該要相連結所以針對我現在針對新加坡的這四項的做法跟我們青年住宅納入這個少子化的這個獎勵因此不知道院長您認為在您有沒有啟動下階段的這個少子化的因應政策這是第一個第二個您的做法是不是願意在這幾項當中也納入延益呢"},{"start":449.707,"end":449.727,"text":"院長﹖"},{"start":477.597,"end":497.388,"text":"既然是國安議題就要非常手段的因應現在你做了任何的公共建設包括我們講到我們現在的國軍以後也沒有人要當國軍了因為我們少子化哪來的國軍呢我們現在是工業也缺人服務也缺人農業也缺人"},{"start":498.268,"end":522.856,"text":"然後包括了連公務系統要進來的新進人員也缺人公務人員也在缺人啊所以這個部分是如果你說是這個國安議題的話沒關係啦院長我還是提點你因為在這個既然你都認為是國安議題可是你並沒有在你的施政政策當中去規劃到這是本席作為一個國會議員要提點你的好下一個議題國營事業應該攜手穩定人員的供應"},{"start":527.877,"end":544.854,"text":"我們這個特別我聚焦在天然氣我們90%的人員是仰賴進口在明年的時候我們天然氣的發電佔比是佔50%所以呢既然都是天然氣都是從國外進口而他在我的佔比打50%的時候本席認為強化人員自主"},{"start":548.638,"end":571.247,"text":"多元分散採購降低人員的風險在我們現在特殊的地緣政治下的運輸模式就是成為國家人員穩定的潛在這個漏洞那我們小科普一下目前的國際物資的運送有兩者一個叫DES一個叫FBDS就是賣方我現在跟台灣跟這個卡達來購買那"},{"start":572.688,"end":588.439,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":588.619,"end":609.557,"text":"沒有下貨前都是屬於礦組的這句話是重點好那如果是我們改為我方的話對FOB的話那變成是我只要訂貨從對方的礦組的港口我一提貨就是屬於我方的好但是呢我們現在呢中油所用的呢就是DS完全掌握在這個礦組的手上"},{"start":611.539,"end":634.922,"text":"好,那現在呢,礦組用了他的車子之後,當然船是他的啊,他當然是可以自己做決定啊,所以在商業交易當中,我們的船東啦,貨主啦,船長是有權利尊重當時船長的當機決定,可以拒絕進入到本國的。好,所以呢當外籍商用船遭遇到極端的這個狀況,他可以全數返航。"},{"start":636.103,"end":662.182,"text":"不進入到本國卸貨賣家也就是我們天然氣的礦組他們是可以免責的那國家的供電我們有50%的天然氣完全就是掌握在國外人的手上我提出兩個議題請您事後瞭解一下在我們多次軍援當中我們天然氣運輸的進入本國的狀況是什麼?繞道還是在外海停滯"},{"start":663.314,"end":682.137,"text":"還是有這個就是返回目的地本身目前就是繞道跟停止外本席所了解但是我想還是由你還是來了解一下至少這個的嚴重性我其實是在這幾次軍演當中我國面臨到天然氣竟然是竟然有這麼高的不可控"},{"start":682.958,"end":705.24,"text":"那另外面對軍演跟軍事封鎖國際也有案例還是只有自己的國籍的船才願意運輸我們國家的必要物資只要是外籍船隻他一定都帶著他們的這個帶著我們訂購的物資返回原本地我講的是國際都有案例遇到當國家遇到軍演這個軍演甚至軍事封鎖的時候"},{"start":706.4,"end":722.748,"text":"誰給那個國家發生戰爭的國家物資只有自己本國的國籍船不管是小麥稻米甚至我們現在的這個煤天然氣都是所以這個當中一國防部也這個國安會也自己出來講話520之後這都是公開報導"},{"start":726.07,"end":745.66,"text":"五二零之後臺灣面對軍演的這件事情是只會屢日劇增那你天然氣是全部都是來自進口啊好那另外一個議題就是說我們天然氣有長約跟極其短約有長約就是10年到20年極其短約呢是"},{"start":746.32,"end":764.248,"text":"一天每日到一年那當然這個長期約是以期貨來約定及期短約是以市場的價格那到包括在二五戰爭的時候我們的短約是天價的好不管是長約或短約都可以是用買方的FOB或者賣方的DS來執行好我想到價格"},{"start":766.949,"end":766.969,"text":"﹚林岱樺"},{"start":783.666,"end":783.686,"text":"﹚林岱樺﹚"},{"start":809.378,"end":835.625,"text":"而且是現貨的那就是這樣的高價所以呢在中油當中才但是呢現在中油只有4艘這個我們有國際船來執行它的價格長約的價格是期貨來算它每艘每天是8萬美元你看8萬美元跟32.5跟我現況的現在的飆漲是20萬差了快3倍到4倍不等啊"},{"start":836.405,"end":857.603,"text":"好 所以本行是具體主張我們這個時間的關係我希望我們現在目前我直接跳到這個我的建議方案那過去都是中油說好我來運那台電在今年他也說我也可以運那中油的時候過去為什麼反對台電運因為他怕說我運的這個台電你運的這個天然氣來你要搶食我國內的天然氣市場所以我就把這個阻絕掉了"},{"start":865.529,"end":879.132,"text":"只要臺電開放讓臺電也購買因為他自己也在公開的他們發言人也講他們可以購買那我就把現在中油30%是採這種現貨採購的這30%全部移為臺電來用而且限定臺電你只能作為發電所用"},{"start":887.034,"end":916.31,"text":"原來的70%採常約的中油的份你繼續做你回來你運到國內之後你還是可以做你的國內的天然氣市場那現在的問題是還要加上航港局那我們呢在要國企國運國家對經濟部跟交通部就要接同兩大國營事業攜手合作兩大國營事業攜手合作來對於台電自行採購限定他發電的用途共同使用中油目前的這個港口跟接收站"},{"start":916.83,"end":943.345,"text":"以及我們交通部航港局和國際國運的政策也鼓勵我們國內的航商跟專業我們國內就三大國內航商鼓勵他們跟國內我們的政府跟國內航商以及專業的學校針對天然氣運輸船之急增加天然氣的訓練課程加入國際國運的行列我們的船也可以共用在中游目前在高雄的永安跟台中的天然氣共同培訓人才"},{"start":944.466,"end":962.407,"text":"那我講到一點齁 這個我們現在的人才目前的國旗船只有4艘執行400航次當中的144航次當中只有這個國旗船這4艘我們報告院長我用報告這表示他很嚴重因為只有船長一個是台灣國旗"},{"start":963.268,"end":984.019,"text":"﹗"},{"start":984.019,"end":1002.056,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1002.236,"end":1020.4,"text":"是完全外國在掌控欸。就會像我現在是很沒有具體的數據去呈現出我現在所以我才請你一定要事後去了解天然氣在軍演當中已經有面臨我是斷氣的不可控的因素所以院長你怎麼看這個我們國氣國運的國家對這個議題?"},{"start":1024.881,"end":1045.988,"text":"首先軍援的時候必定有各種想定,那我們一定是採取最安全可靠的方式來維繫台灣所需要的各種物資,這個當然包括在內。那麼中油過去慣例都是用DES賣方負責的方式來運送,那我所知道中油也漸漸在朝用FOB的方式,但是他也建立了自己的這個系統。"},{"start":1046.528,"end":1068.194,"text":"另外臺電將來在臺中以及協和電廠他必須自己要進這個天然氣LNG他也應該有新的方式可以來進行那部長能不能了解到未來中油臺電在這個船隻運送方式跟我們這個條件的設定底下有沒有新的作為"},{"start":1069.895,"end":1091.202,"text":"這樣好不好?院長你已經有明確性的指示,所以你對於國企、國運、國家對這件事情你認為應不應該做?現在中郵已經朝向這個助理了。我現在會提出執行是我已經花了兩年時間,中郵才歸宿的才同意航港局說我願意把這個"},{"start":1092.262,"end":1092.282,"text":"﹚林岱樺"},{"start":1108.217,"end":1134.593,"text":"等了兩年本席諮詢了兩年他才去做這件事情所以你只要明確告訴我人力的問題我們要進一步的補充院長這樣子你只要同意國企國運國家對這個名詞是以國家來建制他才有可能跨部會的來做經濟部包括人員的培訓包括兩大部會包括交通部都有納入那這件事情你要主責給誰"},{"start":1136.934,"end":1144.797,"text":"國家隊如果承擔這樣的責任當然是最好。我們要有一段時間來建置整個運輸的能量。您要主責給誰?是秘書長來統籌這件事情專案列管?兩位部長是要經濟部還是交通部?"},{"start":1153.579,"end":1158.081,"text":"目的世界主委機關臺電都是經濟部。好,那我們就期待。那部長你可以回應,您針對這樣的建制一個月可以提出相關的規劃嗎?"},{"start":1181.394,"end":1184.439,"text":"最後一個議題就是我們眷村文化的資產展現臺灣多元的歷史那從他的一個起源背景那這個我們"},{"start":1197.358,"end":1225.549,"text":"眷村的住民也可以說是在1949年人類近代當中最大的遷徙那也是臺灣400年來歷史最大的一個文化融合我們講到臺灣這400年來臺灣是非常豐富的從原住民荷蘭日本敏克眷村住民一直到現在進行式的新住民那眷村是臺灣特有的歷史文化的遺產起源於1940年末到1950年政府是為了解決軍眷住房"},{"start":1226.169,"end":1244.268,"text":"的問題而興建當然他在眷村文化語言飲食建築當然都有很大的就具有獨特性所以豐富了臺灣文化的多樣性好我們從過去從眷村改建的到眷村文化這當中到底有沒有創價呢創這個價值創造呢是有的"},{"start":1248.192,"end":1271.63,"text":"眷改的1.0從這個眷村的改建到眷改2.0保存眷村文化我們透過了資產的運用土地的活化地方政府的合作經營我們竟然提前一年半全數清償了716億表示我的眷村改建到眷村文化的保存是可以創造價值的他不是社會的負債"},{"start":1272.631,"end":1296.889,"text":"好,我們從過去的粗暴改建到現在文化重視的轉變,修復專業是文化資產保護的重要環節,需要專業的知識跟技術。所以呢,我們軍服處,國防部的軍服處目前有6位具有古蹟修復工程工地主任的專人執照的軍職人員,但是3年前我們有20位,現在降到6位。"},{"start":1297.529,"end":1317.236,"text":"好那在這當中目前我們的眷尊永續工作其實有這四項這我們有51處其中13處還是在文化園區的服訪37處的文化資產的活化繼續的尋親維護文化資產跟建立平台真的在做的只有下面這一項叫尋親維護文化資產"},{"start":1319.437,"end":1330.443,"text":"好那盤點出來這51處當中有國定股股機制定組股機限定股機歷史建物文化景觀聚落建築考古遺址51處但"},{"start":1333.492,"end":1357.093,"text":"這個當中只有少數是有空間活化這51處當中只有少數空間活化好有幾個案例是讓我們平日遊客是若意不覺的臺北的四四南村臺中的信義新村高雄的黃浦新村這是有活化的空間活化大部分就是顯示建築物改建完後就顯示在那邊好"},{"start":1358.334,"end":1377.263,"text":"那51處當中唯一一處尚未全面啟動眷村文化創新工程的就在我高雄海軍左營眷村。海軍左營的這個眷村是全國最大單一軍種的眷村全部保存面積59公頃。我目前只修復10%還有9成的眷村是人封為代修封。"},{"start":1383.205,"end":1411.153,"text":"為待休,也就是閒置在那邊。我拍了幾張照片,這個左邊是左營眷村,您看,院長您看看,跟部長,你們就看看吧。這個是這樣的破舊,左邊是這樣的一個破舊,右邊是我黃埔青村,同樣在高雄。你看上圖是學校的老師帶著同學出來,下圖是我的爸爸媽媽帶著小朋友出遊。有活化就是這樣,一樣在高雄黃埔青村,一個是落魄不堪,而且是閒置,"},{"start":1412.193,"end":1435.878,"text":"而且是還是讓他繼續落魄叫做風微待休的左營眷村好那再來呢在我這邊呢也一個在這個具體要求之前本席認為眷村文化是我的國際亮點這句話要聽清楚眷村文化是我的國際亮點也就是我在51處整個包裹起來"},{"start":1437.006,"end":1461.575,"text":"我來做跟聯合國或者是等同聯合國認證的世界歷史遺址的基金會來申請我眷村文化的國際知名度然後呢來保存跟傳承讓他有更多資源的跟支持而且也提高臺灣也提高藉著眷村也提高臺灣的國際知名度讓更多人知道臺灣的眷村文化進而影響國際的這個影響力"},{"start":1463.976,"end":1479.65,"text":"好這個歷史遺址基金會在我們澎湖澎湖有一個漁村他也是被也自己來申請的世界歷史遺址的基金會所以這個部分我們臺灣的這個是有潛力的所以臺灣是擁有全世界唯一的眷村文化資產"},{"start":1480.891,"end":1495.386,"text":"好,我們應該讓他成為全民國防教育跟國際觀光價值兩個同居的。好,我這邊具體要求行政院專案列管。我也希望是秘書長能夠專案定時的召開會議。那要做這幾件事情,"},{"start":1501.912,"end":1516.357,"text":"因為跨部會又涉及國防部又涉及文化部又涉及交通部第一個國防部要做什麼事呢他要申請世界遺址的基金會這按照這個我們彭埔的案例他其實準備了8個月"},{"start":1517.657,"end":1532.031,"text":"所以這個只要目前國防部啟動他最多就一個一年他就可以完成這樣的申請相關的準備作業那第二個文化部他就要去文化部跟國防部共同為什麼要秘書長因為這還要組織單位來因為要花錢到底是"},{"start":1536.035,"end":1551.429,"text":"國防部要花多少錢?文化部要花多少錢?那這樣盤整出來整個整修的費用那也要希望一個月能提出它的規劃另外交通部我們都有國際旅展本席要求國際旅展要納入我們的眷村文化"},{"start":1552.43,"end":1570.311,"text":"作為我對外國在國外的是我們的國際我們的臺灣國際館其中有一項就是卷存文化這是對交通部的要求最後我也希望能夠研議增加請國防部增加有古蹟修復專業製造的軍職人員才能夠去維護我這51處"},{"start":1572.634,"end":1573.054,"text":"院長,你怎麼看這個議題?"},{"start":1587.455,"end":1614.494,"text":"非常佩服委員對於眷村文化這樣的關心。我覺得它是對我們生活的融合、情感的融合、跟社會的融合、文化的融合很重要的一環。那國防部因為是眷村文化,眷村它原來的這個所有管理者,它應該要有這樣的觀念,把眷村文化活化再利用。但是整個過程應該文化部要加上很多文化的底蘊跟文化的設計,讓它成為現代文化的一環。"},{"start":1615.294,"end":1625.347,"text":"這樣他往國際走才會有他的價值。所以我們請這兩個部會去密切的聯繫將怎麼樣將剛剛委員所講的左營、海營、眷層。各個有不同的,但是精髓應該在文化部。"},{"start":1630.126,"end":1655.426,"text":"所以是文化部來主責然後他定期開我的觀念很清楚因為既然跨部會就要一個人主責你到底是要秘書長指責還是政委主責就院長你指示我都沒有意見你現在如果主責給文化部那就文化部你就要定期把這個專案執行下去你就要定期邀國防部你每次的部長這邊你就要定期的以專案方式邀國防部文化部文化部本身然後交通部"},{"start":1656.167,"end":1659.749,"text":"其實我們在高雄的眷村整頓中大概花了12億而且我個人覺得在戰後的建築裡面"},{"start":1675.178,"end":1690.235,"text":"建築的確是大部分人的記憶,這點剛剛委員提到這個,把它全部整合在一起,成為一個很奇特的景觀,可以重新呈現第二次世界大戰,台灣當時的狀態,我覺得這個點子很好,我們會來執行。"},{"start":1693.038,"end":1709.834,"text":"好那您大概什麼時候會有提出這樣的方案?兩個月好不好?因為你要重新的盤整這51處你甚至要怎麼既然是全國來看那他的特色他有很多軍種剛才我也提到我再秀一下這個表光是我這51處我的陸軍就19處海軍6處空軍19處後備3處憲兵3處軍情局1處"},{"start":1718.582,"end":1718.602,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"154080","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154080","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a8066db20a45ee8a984a337f76c37b5ea49bfab79a0d782af9425e821ca5b3bc45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"14:30:36 - 14:46:36","影片長度":"00:16:00","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T14:30:36+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T14:46:36+08:00","duration":960,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":5,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（14時30分）謝謝院長，我們是不是有請卓院長以及外交部林部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢、麻煩請外交部備詢。"],["蔡委員易餘：也請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：麻煩請國防部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長好。院長，昨天看到國防及外交委員會的質詢，我想說哇！這個立法委員，現在人家說立法委員變太上皇了，質詢是上對下，這就已經很誇張了，現在還有辦法說中華民國的領土，然後把蒙古也包括進去哩！現在我們對蒙古這個國家，我想請教院長，蒙古是一個國家吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：外蒙古是一個國家。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！就是一個國家，獨立的一個國家嘛！那中華民國也承認蒙古是一個國家啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我所知道的，1946年承認的。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，沒錯，1946年，院長很清楚的嘛！所以現在提到我們這部憲法的一個概念，大法官解釋第328號也說領土的問題本來就是屬於高度政治的、屬於國家的統治問題，它不宜由憲法來做一個定義。所以按現在整個國際的情勢來講，蒙古是一個國家，跟我們互相設代表處，大家都有很深的交誼，這沒有問題嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們外交部也都是這樣的主張嘛？"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們那邊有設處。"],["蔡委員易餘：都沒有問題啊！1946年，我們中華民國就承認外蒙古是一個獨立的國家；2002年的時候行政院批准了把所謂臺灣地區、大陸地區，然後把外蒙古拿掉；2017年 的時候我們還正式廢止了蒙藏委員會，基本上這都是對於蒙古這樣的一個國家，過去的時候曾經有這樣模糊的概念，對這個國家是不尊重的，所以我們改變了這些事。","我要向院長報告，我就是臺蒙國會聯誼會的會長，所以我昨天看到我們的同事翁委員在質詢顧部長的時候，他竟然連外蒙也說要反攻過去，要攻打外蒙的那個意思，哇！那真的……這樣怎麼聽得下去！"],["卓院長榮泰：部長的答詢就是國家目前的政策，請部長再說一次。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我想這個是不是請部長再……"],["顧部長立雄：昨天已經答得很清楚了，中華民國進行有效統治的地區就是臺澎金馬。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是臺澎金馬嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對、對。我們也沒有要反攻大陸啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！所以那時候我在外面有說要訂反攻大陸特別條例，我是在諷刺傅崐萁他的兩兆花東建設條例，我雖然在反諷，結果還真的有人腦袋裡面在想反攻大陸，而且他指的這個大陸還包括外蒙古，這個是無法想像！所以這會變成是，我跟院長報告，8月15日我要跟一團，就是震撼交響樂團，團長是孟義超，我們要到外蒙古去，這個交響樂團就是推廣要讓世界聽到臺灣的聲音，他們今年要到蒙古這個國家，我會在那一團擔任副團長。我們也要去那邊，然後會到蒙古的國會，在他們的議會廣場演奏我們臺灣的歌曲，甚至去他們的大草原那邊進行有關臺灣的宣傳。所以大家都這樣在拼外交耶！本來我想拼外交是不分藍綠、不分臺灣政治，是大家要團結的，可是怎麼昨天會有人在我們這一團還沒出發，就把蒙古說成是中華民國的一部分，給人家潑冷水？院長，我覺得你一定要藉這個機會好好地講一下，不然我們會對蒙古很不好意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員辛苦為維持臺蒙關係做了很多努力，委員對蒙古的歷史和現狀都很瞭解，或許委員最近要去的時候，可以邀幾位不熟悉蒙古歷史和現狀的委員同行，讓他們增加對蒙古的瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我來邀請看看，他們應該要去；我來邀請。","請林部長和顧部長先回座，我下一個議題要請交通部李部長。","我第二個議題是想跟院長聊一下大型車的煞車系統。有關大型車的煞車系統，我曾經在去年2月召開一個協調會，這個協調會主要是針對過去很多大型車的檢驗報告所要求的煞車系統跟實車是不一致的。在去年2月的時候我召開了這樣的協調會，所以去年（2023年）10月的時候有做了一個檢討，就是以後出廠的車輛都必須加註以下事項：第一是車軸是碟煞或鼓煞，第二是電子控制單元，第三是煞車分泵，第四是儲氣桶，第五是駐車閥，第六是快放閥，第七是懸吊系統，要加註這七個系統。也就是說，只要加註了這七個系統，至少在外面跑的大型車煞車系統會和出廠時所要求的一致，目的當然是希望減少大型車輛發生事故所造成的死亡。","但是我們來看客觀的數字，我們所看到的客觀數字是這種大型的包括聯結車、曳引車的交通事故，圖中交通事故是紅線、死傷人數是上面的稜線，兩者都是逐年攀升。2021年的時候交通事故是2,056件，死傷人數是2,447人，到了2023年，也就是去年的時候，更是攀升到了2,085件跟2,522人。所以我想要請教院長以及部長，你們來判斷一下，我們這麼努力，為什麼大型車發生事故的次數仍然增加、死傷人數仍然在逐年攀高中？這到底是為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我先報告委員，交通部最近對於道路安全花了很多時間在研究如何降低肇事率、降低死亡率，尤其針對行人安全，我認為大型車輛的管理也必須加緊來管制，所以我想請部長來解釋一下目前他正在研究的進度。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，請部長。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，我想有兩個部分，一個是大型車通常轉彎都會有內輪差，所以這個部分現在在新車出廠的時候，我們就要求它一定要裝相關內輪差等等的預警系統，另外一個就是曳引車、聯結車的防鎖死煞車，現在發現有一些出廠時安裝的各項系統跟它實質申報的不一致，所以現在只要在相關驗車的時候有發現這個不一致的現象，就會要求該廠牌、同系列安裝的要召回，重新再做補安裝或是相關的修正。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，交通部上次就是很努力啦！我剛剛說逐年攀高，那是一個客觀數字，我們也知道交通部去年編了3億3,000萬，要整合大型車的預警系統，我們是規劃在今年起碼要有800部車輛，所以預警是一個很重要的事，但是煞車系統才是真正會不會發生事故以及會不會造成死傷的關鍵。所以我們來看一下影像。","（播放影片）"],["蔡委員易餘：這是發生在淡水，它整台車停不下來，一直往前撞過去，這個影像呈現的是這樣，整台車停不下來。我們再看下一個影像。","（播放影片）"],["蔡委員易餘：請看後面這邊，車子出來，馬上停下來，這個是在國外喔！所以看到這兩個例子，你就看到說我們在國內，既然前面已經有車子在阻塞了，它是停不下來的，繼續往前衝。然後你看國外的，竟然有辦法看到小朋友，瞬間停下來。以這一個大型車，因為大型車主要是分為前面的車跟後面托運的部分，就是後面車身的部分，所以是很難把它煞車下來的，因為我們知道牛頓慣性定律，前面的車煞車踩下去，前面的車停了，但是後面的東西因為慣性還是會往前衝，往前衝的結果就是這種車會發生「折甘蔗」，你雖然前面停了，但是你因為「折甘蔗」的關係，後面的東西擠過來也是會歪掉，所以事故還是發生。所以我舉這樣的例子就是說，以現在的科技，要來克服到整個煞車的系統，現在的科技已經逐步在進步，但是逐步進步的同時，我們卻看到現在臺灣上路的車輛還是參差不齊。","這樣就來到我現在要講的重點了，你看我們的法規是長這樣，依照公路法第六十三條第五項「車輛形式安全審驗管理辦法」，然後在它的附件42-4以及附件43，附件42就是動態煞車系統，附件43就是防鎖死煞車系統，然後這兩個煞車系統他們在97年前是完全沒有，在100年的時候有一個關鍵，就是100年前的規定，沒有規定要設駐車閥跟快放閥，駐車閥是說它有前面的車跟後面的車，前面的車停下來了，後面的車也要跟著停下來，所以這個就要有駐車閥。如果是快放閥，就是在避震器的地方，因為現在我們都是用氣壓的，所以它會有氣結的產生，它的煞車就會頓住，因此它要有這個快放閥。那在100年前是都沒有，100年後的法規就強制規定要有駐車閥跟快放閥。在107年，就是現在的法規，到了432以及424，它更規定了氣囊式的懸吊就必須要有VSF，VSF就是車輛穩定性的電子控制系統，它是控制它後面車的方向跟它翻覆的平衡，所以這種種的設備，基本上就是要讓車輛可以合格。","所以我剛這樣列舉起來就有幾個時間點，97年前都沒有規定，100年前沒有駐車閥跟快放閥，107年前沒有VSF，站在我們的想法，我們當然希望車輛都要安全，每一台車都要符合是最安全的，但是也有這些舊的、早期的車子存在，所以我在質詢中用了這麼多時間，就是希望改變這個現狀，我們有沒有可能用公務預算協助這一些過去他們也是有檢驗合格，可是他們檢驗合格卻確實存在著可能車廠沒有如實安裝，或是可能過去的法規沒有安裝這樣的配備，造成他們的車輛是沒有辦法隨時停車的，現實上就是有這樣的的狀況，看到狀況我想要停下來，我後面的車斗就擠上來，結果還是發生車禍。我們有沒有辦法像剛剛所說的我們有預警系統？我們能不能協助他們把煞車系統也來做一個改善呢？"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，如果是屬於車廠安裝的時候或是出廠的時候的承諾事項，這個部分還是要請車廠要負責召回，把它補齊，才能檢驗合格，我想這個部分是一個通案性的原則，之前也有一批機車，發現它的煞車系統也有一些問題，當時有八萬多輛，也都有召回的狀況，如果是都有合格，照它當時的承諾，有合格的安裝，但是因為整個法規的演變，那麼新的法規或者新的需求，期待應該有更新的或者更好的設備，這個部分我想我們來研議看看有沒有辦法怎麼樣來補強，增加這些安全性。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，部長，因為這就是時代進步、科技在進步，但是法規是後面隨著科技有了新的配備，這個配備對於駕駛者、對於用路人都是更安全的，但是我們沒辦法期待，這些用車的人基本上也比較弱勢，你要叫他們再去改，他們沒有這個動力，所以這個只能靠政府，我們用誘因，然後讓他們去提升煞車系統，讓他們有預警，預警之後就是要能夠停下來，我主要用這麼多時間，我是覺得這件事滿重要的，我希望行政院行動AI內閣可以把科技的東西讓所有的用路人都可以安全，這樣好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：科技可以輔助，我們政府來加強管理這個項目，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的發言，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第51位林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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- 12:04:55","影片長度":"00:30:39","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T11:34:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T12:04:55+08:00","duration":1839,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時34分）謝謝主席，請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：卓院長早，首先恭喜您榮任行政院長，非常高興。"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：今天主要大概有三個單元向你請教，第一個最重要就是馬祖大橋；第二個是靶場，第三個是土地的轉型正義。提到馬祖大橋之前，先跟院長說明一下，馬祖小小的地方原來有兩座機場，這兩座機場都是軍用機場轉型的，南竿機場原來是運輸機空投物品用的，大概有1,500公尺，它在山頂上、三面環海；第二座機場在北竿，北竿機場跑道有1,150公尺，跑道非常短，所以它限載量72人只能坐50個人左右，因為要視貨物的重量來決定。","北竿機場成立以後，飛機失事兩次，包括我親弟弟在內，一家5個人全部罹難，所以我在擔任立法委員時就極力推動飛安的問題，也就是希望馬祖兩座機場能夠有一座標準的機場，這兩座機場都是非常不安全的機場，人家說不丹的機場是全世界最危險的，但我覺得我們馬祖兩座機場是不合格的機場，所以才有3C機場、合格機場的倡議，飛行員飛馬祖，都要兩位正駕駛才能夠飛；在蘇院長的時候已經提出來了，提出來以後，蘇院長也同意，後來再到陳建仁院長，最後北竿機場的207億也在陳院長任內已經核定，它需要的工期為7年3個月。","問題來了，在上次選舉期間一直針對先蓋機場還是先做大橋有所討論，所以執政黨候選人不停的提出質疑，但本席對這個問題非常困擾，為什麼呢？因為我提出來的，本來就是要先做馬祖大橋，這跟蘇院長也好、陳建仁院長也好，我們的意見是一致的，問題這主控權不在我啊！也不在縣政府。機場的興建主要是民航局主政，大橋的興建是交通部公路局主政，所以不在縣政府。民眾提出來，興建北竿機場需要7年3個月，他們在這個空窗期要坐船到南竿去坐飛機，他們對機位、在地人口就業等等問題都提出了質疑，所以縣長跟我也極力的對當地民眾進行安撫，當然一定會有配套的措施。執政黨候選人也質疑我，究竟是先做機場，還是先做大橋？我的立場當然是先做大橋啊！因為大橋完成以後可以把兩岸，也就是南竿跟北竿的民眾能夠疏運，當然不只是民眾的疏運，包含軍事各方面的配電、水、電、醫療、警政全部都結合在一起，所以我希望先做馬祖大橋，但是這個馬祖大橋……","好，現在我跟院長報告，馬祖大橋從106年開始推動，我想跟院長報告的是，雪生從第三屆國大代表，經歷了兩屆的縣長，再經歷了4屆的立委，一共26年執政的時間，對馬祖最熟悉、對馬祖有宏觀遠見的應該是我本人，所以我覺得這個基礎建設對馬祖來講是非常非常的重要，在此特別跟院長提出報告。針對馬祖大橋，從106年開始，我們希望加入前瞻建設計畫，當時任院長的賴清德總統也同意連江縣南北竿跨海大橋可行性評估還有綜合計畫，由全國最有名也是公信力最好的世曦工程規劃公司承包，經過兩年的鑽探、可行性評估等等，所有手續全部完備，到110年就開始報院，由交通部開始報院，縣政府開始報交通部，到了110年第三次報院，111年行政院秘書長函復表示再檢討本案，就經費的部分，就工法的部分，也就是工法上有沒有困難的部分，希望可以提出來，所以就是一直在裡面打太極拳、轉來轉去、上上下下大概有3年的時間，最後國發會龔主委把它送到英商奧雅納工程顧問公司，因為他們得標了，由他們再去評估並做第三方的公證，但是據我的瞭解，這個公司大概只有用500萬就得標，500萬怎麼樣去對海底做鑽探？這是不可能的事情啊！所以他們回頭又來問世曦的施董這裡面的問題在哪裡？施董說：沒有問題。既然在工程上、技術上沒有問題的話，我又去找了金門的王董，金門大橋的承商王董，我問他多少錢能標，他說300億一定能得標，當然今天核定的可行性評估是288億，他說300億一定可以，就我的評估，因為最近工程上常常講到缺工等等的問題，所以350億應該沒問題，我們的評估是分10年進行，因為工期要10年，由我們公路總局分10年，一年大概不過35億，政府非常重視偏鄉離島，是不是請院長幫忙，能夠早日核定？這個大橋的案子若能早一日核定，因為機場的部分已經核定了，我希望順序上能夠做一點調整，先做這個大橋，大橋做好以後，北竿、南竿的民眾就可以互通，互通以後就開始做北竿機場的建設，北竿機場的建設完成了，我們南竿機場就把它廢掉或是做其他的用途，因為它的面積滿大的，這樣子的話，可以給馬祖未來的子孫留下一條非常好的後路，這是最重要的基礎建設，希望我們院長能夠育成。","我想縣長是我的好朋友，今天當然你當院長我也非常高興，在民間的時候，我們也相處地非常融合，這個大橋主要長度大概3.1公里，它講工期是8年，但是我評估要10年左右。賴總統在當行政院長的時候曾去過馬祖，他也做了很多的承諾，他說經費不是問題，就是當院長時曾經講過的話；然後擔任副總統候選人到馬祖去的時候，也曾經提示過，攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋，是馬祖人應得的，大橋案在自己的手中推動，一定會全力的促成。我想他在擔任院長時講的話，在擔任副總統時講的話，我想他依稀還記得。","卓院長到馬祖去的時候，我也當面跟卓院長報告這個案子，我想卓院長也非常認真、努力，也希望能夠促成、實踐。現在我請卓院長觀賞一段影片，這段影片是關於我們這個橋如果做成了，大概會是什麼樣的一個地貌。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝院長。澎湖有澎湖到西嶼的大橋，金門有大金門到小金門的大橋，前天我又從金門大橋走了一遍。在我們偏鄉離島，大金門連接小金門，金門的土地馬上就漲了；馬祖南竿是我們政經中心，現在土地已經飽和了，蓋旅館蓋不下去了。現在不是一位難求，到馬祖看藍眼淚時已經不是一位難求，而是住屋難求！想租個房間很困難！所以已經發展到極限了，需要北竿的土地來做三星級旅館。我想澎湖大橋也好，金門大橋也好，為了我們馬祖未來長遠的計畫著想，我希望把橋連貫起來，把北竿土地做最有效的開發。蘇院長曾經講過一句話，蘇前院長講說：我們要做，就要做得比金門更好！所以東丕的王董要去邀標，否則不管288億、300億，甚至是400億，只要沒有人來標問題就出來了！現在至少有一家了，是不是？所以我非常放心。至於工程技術上的問題，英商大概9月份資料就會回來，我評估英商只有500萬得標，因為裡面有很多的機具要測試海底、海床、海流、水流等等東西，這都要從世曦來。世曦是國內頂尖的顧問設計公司，施董也不停的跟我講：絕對沒有問題，絕對沒有問題！經費方面，我想350億左右，我們從288億給他漲到350億好了，王董說只要300億他就來做。院長，我們也是好朋友，你現在也是老長官，所以我想聽聽您對這個大橋的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。首先對委員令弟跟家屬遭遇空安問題表示非常遺憾！但也因為這樣子，知道委員長期關心飛安問題，所以委員對北竿機場、南竿機場的關心，我們都非常清楚。現在北竿機場已經要進行整建改善，照委員所說要7年3個月，將近8年時間來整建改善北竿機場。至於馬祖大橋，從一開始大家到現場看，經過工程單位、顧問單位去看，結果確實存在很多工程技術上的複雜，以及對海事工程的重大挑戰，所以目前都還在很慎重的評估當中。當然，過去我們到現場去看，都認為有橋連接可以讓南北竿居民有便利性，但因為現在北竿機場在興建，至於南竿機場，由於離島有兩個機場是很少見、很特殊的，所以南竿機場將來要做怎麼樣的營運管理或做怎麼樣的規劃，其實跟馬祖大橋、北竿機場都有相關的連動性。所以我們現在在重新評估，到底南竿機場未來的走向如何，它跟馬祖大橋的興建，在交通上的需求以及互相支援的過程有沒有，這個部分交通部已經有一個想法或是初步的規劃，但這個都還是初步的。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，現在問題在於我們的機場已經核定了，建設計畫大概需要2年到3年時間，我也拜託院長，是不是在最近等英商的評估回來後，第三方的公正報告出來之後，能夠趕快把馬祖大橋核定？我也希望在順序上是馬祖大橋先建，建得差不多的時候，我們再來啟動北竿機場的興建計畫，這樣也沒有政治上問題出現。因為民眾覺得恐慌，為什麼？他要到南竿來坐船，8年的時間耶，不是短短的3年或2年，他可以忍耐，所以這一點我想請院長幫忙，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們請……"],["陳委員雪生：因為時間的關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請部長簡單……"],["陳委員雪生：沒關係，我跟部長在交通委員會還可以再探討，好不好？因為時間的關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員雪生：下一個議題是北竿塘岐靶場，這牽涉扯到國防部，有關這個靶場，我跟院長報告，它在我們的蛋黃區，這個蛋黃區周邊是國中、國小、衛生所、鄉公所、運動中心，運動場也在那裡，靶場就在正中央，這個靶場你看能不能夠存在？就您的眼光去看，以我這樣的敘述，這個靶場就在這些建物的中間，你看行不行？你看？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這個靶場我沒有進去過，但周遭我曾經經過，塘歧這個地方我有經過，這是非常漂亮的馬祖的地方，但靶場的存在對當地的國軍是有必要性、使用上的問題，有沒有做進一步的規劃，我請國防部來做說明。"],["陳委員雪生：好，請顧部長回答。"],["顧部長立雄：因為它是北竿地區唯一完整的輕重兵器實彈射擊訓練靶場，如果要把它拿掉的話，我們要求一定是要有另外一個新的靶場讓我們使用，所以現在是在風山地區有找到一個適合靶場的預定地，我想委員應該很清楚，但是這個靶場在召開說明會的時候好像也有部分不同的意見，所以我們是秉持代拆代建、先建後拆，也就是說，我們一定要有一個靶場蓋好了以後，才能夠把既有的靶場……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，您知道這個方案要多少錢嗎？代拆代建要多少錢，您知道嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：代拆代建，我們現在的評估好像是有兩塊地，有A、B兩塊地，有一塊地是4億多元……"],["陳委員雪生：好，我告訴你，第一個方案是5億，第二個方案是10億。現在的靶場就是一個靶溝，貼幾張紙，阿兵哥在距離100公尺、200公尺的地方放個沙包，槍架在上面，砰砰砰砰砰，打共匪打不死，打我們自己的靶兵一槍就命中了，準得很，正中腦袋。這樣一個破破爛爛的靶場，你要縣政府代拆代建，而且還要先建後拆，這怎麼可能！我已經提了8年了，歷任國防部長我都提了，院長，您看看，這個東西值得5億或是10億嗎？現在有個臺灣地區地方政府舉辦公共工程拆遷國軍營區設施處理原則，這個原則要改，這個原則不改，國防部鐵板一塊，一定要代拆代建。","曾經在邱部長的任內，我告訴他，我們的國中蓋好了，醫院蓋好了，運動中心蓋好了，我不讓他們在靶場裡打任何一發子彈，打了的話，我把民眾排在那邊睡覺，躺在馬路上！我們國防安全及國軍的訓練是非常重要的，我已經講了8年了，你們都不動，這裡不是臺南的砲兵學校耶，臺南的砲兵學校可以蓋5個現代化的靶場，部長，您可能不知道吧，院長，你說說看，這個靶場擺在這裡一定不可以嘛，怎麼可以呢，一定要遷走嘛，不然……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們當然會關心……"],["陳委員雪生：你現在先建後拆，然後來個代拆代建，叫縣政府哪裡來的錢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然會關心居民生活的安寧跟學生的安全，這個一定要關心的……"],["陳委員雪生：當然！不要講居民……"],["卓院長榮泰：你說8年到現在，至少國防部的進度，就我所了解，它已經提出二、三個場地在做選擇，他們選擇的其中一件就是風山地區，現在是經費問題還在做一些評估，跟縣政府做一些討論……"],["陳委員雪生：這個要請主計總處另外撥款啦，按照這個原則，這個原則不改，靶場就不拆，他們就不走，不走的話一定會跟居民發生衝突嘛！馬祖是軍民感情最融合的地方耶，水乳交融耶，你看金門那邊還有老百姓跑到軍營裡面打阿兵哥，馬祖有這樣的事嗎？沒有耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我要請部長多跟委員溝通、協調一下，地方上居民的問題也請您幫我們理解，看能夠怎麼樣去跟居民做溝通，但是本案除了場地目前已經擇定之外，它的進度跟預算，工程的預算，我們還是可以進一步來做協商。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，它第一個方案要5億，第二個方案要10億……"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是，我知道。"],["陳委員雪生：那個靶場值5億嗎？我看5,000萬都不值得啊！你要我代拆代建，不是笑死人了？全場所有的首長來評評理嘛！第一個，你要不要搬走？你們評評理。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是一個新的靶場，應該會有比較好的設備，而不是拆了之後就隨便找個地方，不是這樣的。"],["陳委員雪生：那個地啊，還有老百姓的地在裡面耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要再進一步的溝通啊，做更多的協調。"],["陳委員雪生：所以這個我想請院長重視一下，好不好？我每次提，每次都不理我，上次總質詢也提了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們已經有進度了，跟委員報告，至少有一個地點，我們就在做努力。"],["陳委員雪生：蘇院長那時候的總質詢我也提了，陳建仁院長的時候我也提了，國防部就不理啊，就以這個理由、這個原則說是準此原則辦理，地方指揮官也是這樣，他也沒辦法，所以這個拜託一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，請國防部多跟委員溝通。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，您回去研究一下，我覺得如果有困難，你要跨部會的請行政院主計總處或財政部要專案撥款給你來處理這個事情，而不是一個代拆代建、先建後拆，你丟給縣政府，縣政府丟到哪裡去？丟到我這裡啊，我再丟給你，就丟來丟去啊，到最後居民抗爭嘛，一定是這樣嘛，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員多多幫忙，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：因為時間關係，我們就不談了。","第三個問題是土地的公平正義，報告院長，你知道阿兵哥跟國有財產局在馬祖占領我們多少土地，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道這個現在……"],["陳委員雪生：您不知道，我來跟你報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：在馬祖地區的公有土地比例是比較高。"],["陳委員雪生：80%都是他們的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：比例是比較高，我知道。"],["陳委員雪生：我們縣政府、老百姓只有百分之十幾，還有未登錄的土地，國產署動不動就告我們老百姓，我們還想告它咧！我們還想告國產署耶，你是強盜啊？是土匪還是強盜？比共產黨還壞啊！可以這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。"],["陳委員雪生：我們都口不出惡言，我都不想去講這個話，財政部可以這樣搞嗎？上次已經質詢過一次，部長你也上台了，我有請你回答嘛，你們回去以後，我最近的了解是只有2個案了，現在國產署告老百姓的只剩下2個案，我說那很好，我感到非常窩心，什麼事情你知道嗎？一共二十幾個案，有20個案判老百姓輸，全部都是輸，沒有一個贏的，我真的想跳樓啊，我氣死了，你不知道，我氣得想跳樓啊！你們國產署哪裡來的地嘛？阿兵哥哪裡來的地嘛？我爸爸也是軍人啊，到那邊也是強占民地來住的啊，我是這樣生出來的耶，我是在老百姓的房子生出來的，我自己本人啊！你們阿兵哥哪裡來的地？現在因為預官懂得寫字，80年以前是實施戰地任務，80年以後，馬祖哪有什麼地政事務所，陳雪生是下雪的時候生的，陳耳聾是耳朵聾了，陳瞎眼是眼睛瞎了，名字是這麼來的啊！是不是？那你們現在這樣登記，一個是62年的問題嘛，62年才成立地政局，才給馬祖老百姓登記土地，你現在要他舉證，82年要舉證，老頭子已經走光了，怎麼舉證嘛！你說怎麼舉證？法院就這麼判，還教國產署說你們不告就瀆職喔，還叫你們去告，這什麼法官啊？我以前相信司法獨立，我現在不相信了，司法獨什麼立啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我想有關馬祖地區要申請返還土地的部分，其實國產署也都是從寬處理，所以整個來說，返還的國有土地已經超過四千多筆，只是說有一些因為有很明確的瞭解是政府曾經有償，也就是有付對價的，不管是徵收也好，或是價購也好，或者民眾占用有中斷時效的部分，才會就相關的案件提起異議，目前來說，案件算是非常少的……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我跟你報告，你說的話我一句都聽不下去，你要以行動來表示，國產署實在是窮凶惡極啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦。"],["陳委員雪生：實在窮凶惡極，我跟你講。你們是管理機關，軍備局只是使用機關，回去跟你們國產署署長好好討論一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，會請署長好好處理。"],["陳委員雪生：要有慈悲的心，這個地是你們的嗎？你們自己摸摸良心，對得起自己嗎？對得起自己嗎？你們要摸摸良心，好不好？請你回去。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們是一個法治的社會，部長剛剛所說的，國產署一定是基於我們曾經有償的購買，或是有提出……"],["陳委員雪生：院長，我們老百姓沒唸書欸……"],["卓院長榮泰：申請人在這一段時間沒有完整的……"],["陳委員雪生：你法治的社會，你都只講法條……"],["卓院長榮泰：才會去提出異議，否則我們都是依照馬祖地區土地申請返還實施辦法來依法做處理。"],["陳委員雪生：好，因為時間的關係，好不好？部長你請回，我想請衛福部部長。","跟院長報告，我們最近從馬祖緊急醫療後送過來的民眾都會做斷層掃描，馬祖不是部立醫院，在選舉的時候，曾經有人講馬祖要成立部立醫院，馬祖有馬祖的特殊環境。好，我們現在的斷層掃描用了幾年，院長知道嗎？這是全世界、全中華民國最舊的一部電腦斷層，20年了，斷層照完以後拿到臺灣來，到醫院去，看不清楚再重照一次。輻射對人體的傷害，我們還不談，從搶救生命的角度來看，這是浪費時間嘛！是不是？所以，院長，我拜託，今天部長也在，送我們一臺斷層掃描，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長研究看看，怎麼樣提高馬祖地區的醫療水準跟服務。"],["陳委員雪生：我們會做成使用計畫報到衛福部來，是不是請部長幫個忙？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員雪生：送我們一臺斷層掃描，不要在那邊照完以後，送到這邊來上傳，傳了以後模模糊糊看不清楚，還要再照一次。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我跟馬祖那邊的醫界都是好朋友，我再來跟他們討論，了解現在的情況是怎麼樣，一定要讓馬祖的民眾得到相當好的一個儀器來檢查跟治療。"],["陳委員雪生：好，我想謝謝部長，你請回。院長，還有一個是高雄飛馬祖的航線，我還要請你幫忙。"],["卓院長榮泰：高雄飛馬祖。"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖有兩座機場，那麼從臺灣到馬祖，這是你們交通部的事嘛，是行政院的事嘛，難道要老百姓去買飛機，或是縣政府買飛機來運載客人嗎？不可能嘛！所以你們有提供行的便利的責任嘛，是不是？所以最近開了很多的會，我也要求交通部，拜託他們，新的部長也非常的謙虛，非常的客氣，我拜託他們找民航局等單位，看看怎麼做嘛。你用包機，它一趟來回要72萬，72萬等於一張票是多少呢？要5,000塊。票價5,000塊觀光客怎麼肯來，是不是？觀光客一直講說希望弄高雄飛馬祖的航線，一直地提，我想請院長或是部長，你回答我一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我知道馬祖的航班一向都是一票難求的機會，因為時間相當長，而且受到天候的影響，所以相當不穩定，那是不是交通部跟航空業者能夠來進一步的協調看看怎麼樣提高馬祖的運量？"],["陳委員雪生：部長，好不好？我也曾經在交通委員會質詢過你。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["陳委員雪生：就是希望部長可以在一個月內認真一點督促民航局促成這件事情，這樣對觀光也好，像我們那邊的阿兵哥有一半的人是住在高雄、中南部，阿兵哥不停地在叫，觀光客也不停地在叫，我們的鄉親也想要去高雄玩、去佛光山等地，可是都沒有飛機可以搭。部長，好不好？請你回答我。"],["李部長孟諺：現在有請林國顯次長找民航局還有觀光署談，大家在找一個最佳的方案。"],["陳委員雪生：是的，謝謝部長。院長，您也可以協助嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定請交通部盡力來促成提高馬祖航空運量的這件事情。"],["陳委員雪生：好，因為時間的關係，那就謝謝院長、部長，你們辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，本次會議未有委員提出臨時提案，就不進行臨時提案之處理。","下午2時30分繼續開會進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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534,"end":687.715,"text":"橋下航道才雙孔單向配置,並設置導航及防撞設施。大橋向北連接北竿尼姑山西路後,進入陸域段範圍。陸域段配合地形,以陸體及橋樑形式配置。"},{"start":693.672,"end":715.222,"text":"總點則銜接至白沙港南碼頭。馬祖大橋建設將提供南北竿全天候、快捷、穩定、運輸的路廊、 完善馬祖地區道路交通網、串聯南北竿一日生活圈、 促進馬祖地區的觀光發展。"},{"start":716.941,"end":745.743,"text":"馬祖大橋優美的外形搭配在地壯闊的海景將成為馬祖最吸引人的地標。馬祖歡迎您的列寧。好,謝謝院長。澎湖有個澎湖到西宇的大橋。金門有大金門到小金門的大橋。我前天又從金門大橋又走了一遍。那麼我想我們偏鄉離島"},{"start":747.281,"end":776.269,"text":"大金門連接小金門金門的土地馬上就漲了我想馬祖南竿是我們政經中心那麼現在土地已經飽和了蓋旅館蓋不下去了現在不是一味難求馬祖在看藍眼淚的時候不是一味難求而是一個住屋難求你要去租一個房間很困難所以他已經發展到極限了需要北竿的土地那麼來做三星級的旅館我想從馬祖"},{"start":777.618,"end":804.043,"text":"這個澎湖大橋也好,金門大橋也好。我在在我想我們馬祖未來長遠的計畫,我希望把這個橋連貫起來,把北竿的土地做最有效的開發。那麼蘇院長曾經講過一句話,蘇賢院長講說,我們要做,要做的比金門更好。那麼這個東坯的這個王董啊,為什麼?要去邀標啊。不要說等一下288億、300億,你講了400億,"},{"start":806.65,"end":834.628,"text":"沒有人來標你這個問題出來了至少起碼有一家了嘛是不是所以我覺得我非常的放心所以工程技術上的問題我想殷商大概八九月份資料就回來我評估殷商他只有五百萬得標他這裡面有很多的機具要測試海底海床等等的一些東西海流水流等等所以他都要從世襲來世襲是我們國內頂尖的"},{"start":837.291,"end":862.802,"text":"這個顧問設計公司施董也不停的跟我講,絕對沒有問題,絕對沒有問題。那麼經費我想350億左右啊,2818我們給他漲到350億好了。黃董則說只要300億他就來做。所以我想這個院長,我們也是好朋友,你現在也是老長官,所以我想聽聽您對這個大橋的看法。"},{"start":864.493,"end":888.019,"text":"謝謝委員首先對委員令地跟家屬遭遇空安的問題我們表示非常的遺憾但也因為這樣子知道委員長期關心非安的問題所以對北幹機場南幹機場委員的關心我們都非常的清楚那現在北幹機場已經要進行整件的改善照委員所說要7年3個月將近8年的時間要整件改善這個北幹機場"},{"start":888.999,"end":914.579,"text":"那至於馬祖大橋從一開始大家到現場看經過工程單位顧問單位去看看結果他確實存在很多工程技術上的複雜以及對這種海事工程的重大的挑戰這個目前都是還在很慎重的評估當中當然過去我們到現場去看都認為有一個橋就是連接南北竿"},{"start":915.68,"end":915.84,"text":"﹚陳雪生﹚"},{"start":942.463,"end":946.525,"text":"現在問題在我們的機場已經核定了,他大概建設計畫需要兩年到三年的時間。"},{"start":963.567,"end":985.315,"text":"我也拜託院長是不是在最近等殷商的評估回來以後,第三方的公正報告出來以後,能夠趕快把馬祖大橋合定。我也希望在順序上馬祖大橋先建,建得差不多的時候我們再來啟動北竿機場的興建計畫。所以這樣的話也沒有政治上的問題出現。"},{"start":986.363,"end":1010.572,"text":"因為民眾他覺得會恐慌,為什麼他要到南竿來坐船?八年的時間不是短短的三年或者兩年,他可以忍耐,所以這一點我想請院長幫忙好不好?因為時間的關係我想,沒關係部長我在交通委員會我還可以再探討好不好?因為時間的關係。下面的問題就是北竿唐崎靶場牽涉到國防部。"},{"start":1013.191,"end":1041.33,"text":"這個靶場跟院長報告,它在我們的淡黃區,這個淡黃區的周邊是什麼呢?是國中、國小、衛生所、商工所、運動中心、運動場也在那裡,靶場就在正中央。這個靶場你看能不能夠存在,就您的眼光去看,我這樣跟您的敘述,這個靶場在這些東西的中間,你看行不行,你看。"},{"start":1042.086,"end":1045.708,"text":"國防部因為它是北甘地區唯一完整的輕重兵器的實彈設計訓練靶場所以如果說要"},{"start":1072.065,"end":1098.718,"text":"要把它拿掉的話,我們要求一定是要有另外一個新的靶場。那所以現在是在豐山這個地區有找到一個適合靶場的一個預定地。我想我也應該是很清楚。但是這個靶場在召開這個說明會的時候,好像也有部分不同的這個意見。所以我們是秉持待拆待建,先建後裁。就是說我們一定要有一個"},{"start":1103.469,"end":1122.055,"text":"部長您知道這個方案要多少錢嗎?待拆待建要多少錢?您知道嗎?待拆待建,我們現在評估好像是兩塊地,AB兩塊地,這個有一塊地是4億多。第一個方案是5億,第二個方案是10億,現在的靶場"},{"start":1124.741,"end":1145.187,"text":"就是一個把鉤,貼幾塊紙,然後阿兵哥在距離100公尺到200公尺放個沙包,槍架在上面,啪啪啪啪啪,打共匪打不死啊,打我們自己打那個把兵啊,一槍就命中了,準得狠,準得狠啊,正中央腦袋,這樣一個破破爛爛的靶場"},{"start":1146.584,"end":1174.988,"text":"你要先政府待拆待建而且還要先建後拆這怎麼可能我已經提了8年了歷任國防部長我都提了院長您看看你這個東西值得5億或是10億嗎他有一個臺灣地區地方政府舉辦公共工程拆遷國軍營區設施處理原則這個原則要改這個原則不改國防部鐵板一塊一定要待拆待建"},{"start":1175.748,"end":1203.467,"text":"我曾經在邱部長任內我告訴他我們的國中蓋好了我們的醫院蓋好了運動中心蓋好了我不讓靶場在裡面打任何一發子彈打了我把民眾排在那邊睡覺躺在馬路上我們國防安全國軍的訓練是非常重要的我已經講了八年了嘛你們都不動這裡不是台南的砲兵學校台南砲兵學校可以蓋五個現代化的靶場"},{"start":1205.95,"end":1222.998,"text":"部長,您可能不知道吧?陳院長你說說看,這個板板擺在這裡一定不可以嘛,怎麼可以勒?一定要遷走嘛,那你現在先見後差,然後來個待差待見,你叫縣政府拿你來的錢?"},{"start":1223.778,"end":1252.183,"text":"我們當然會關心居民生活的安寧跟學生的安全,這個一定要關心的。那你說8年到現在至少國防部的進度我所了解他已經提出了兩三個地區在場地在做選擇,他們選擇了其中的一件就是封山地區,那現在這個經費的問題還在做一些評估。這個要請主席出另外撥款,你按照這個原則不改,這個原則不改他把場就不拆。"},{"start":1254.2,"end":1262.612,"text":"他就不走,不走的話軍民一定發生衝突嘛。馬祖是軍民感情最融合的一個地方。"},{"start":1263.965,"end":1291.07,"text":"水乳交融欸,你看金白那邊還有老闆一跑到軍營裡面打冰哥,馬祖有這樣的事嗎?沒有欸。這個我要請部長跟委員說溝通協調一下,地方上居民的問題也請你幫我們理解能夠怎麼樣去跟居民做溝通。但是這個事件,這個本案啊,除了這個場地目前已經擇定之外,它的進度跟它的預算、它的工程的預算,我們還是可以進一步來做協商。院長他第一個方案要五億。"},{"start":1291.98,"end":1319.956,"text":"第二個方案要10億,你那個靶場值5億嗎?我看值五千萬都還不值得啊。哈?你要我代菜代件,笑死人啊。全場所有的首長們來平平理理嘛。第一個你要不要搬走?你要不要平平理理?第二個。那個地啊,裡面還有老百姓的地在裡面。所以要再進一步的溝通啊。所以這個我想請院長重視一下好不好?"},{"start":1320.595,"end":1349.293,"text":"我每次提啊,每次都不理我,但是董事卿也提了。蘇院長的時候董事卿我也提了,陳建元院長的時候我也提了。那國防部都不理啊,就以這個理由,以這個原則,准此原則辦理。地方的指揮官也是這樣,他也沒辦法。所以這個拜託一下,部長,林慧欽研究一下,我覺得如果有困難啊,你要跨部會的請行政院主計處或是財政部啊,要專案撥款給你來處理這個事情。"},{"start":1350.52,"end":1356.401,"text":"第三個問題就是土地的公平正義。報告院長你知道阿兵哥跟國有產產局在馬祖佔領我們多少土地你知道嗎?"},{"start":1380.409,"end":1402.128,"text":"你不知道我來跟你報告好不好在馬祖地區的公有土地的比例是比較高百分之八十都是他們的啊我們縣政府啊老百姓只有百分之十幾還有未登陸的土地動不動啊國產署去告我們老百姓我們還想告他咧我們還想告國產署欸你是強盜啊你是土匪還強盜比共產黨還壞啊"},{"start":1403.479,"end":1430.216,"text":"是不是可以這樣嗎?我們都口不出惡言我都不想去講這個話了財政部你可以這樣子搞嗎?上次已經質詢過一次,部長你也上台了我有請你回答嗎?你們回去以後我最近了解只有兩個案了現在國產署告老百姓的只剩下兩個案我說那很好啊,我非常窩心什麼事你知道嗎?一共二十幾個案"},{"start":1431.638,"end":1457.04,"text":"有20個案判老百姓輸全部都是輸沒有一個贏的我真的想跳樓啊我氣死了你不知道我氣得想跳樓啊你們國產署哪來的地嘛你阿兵哥哪來的地嘛我爸爸也是軍人啊到那邊也是強占民地住的啊我是這麼生出來的勒我在老百姓的房子生出來的勒我自己本人啊"},{"start":1458.837,"end":1483.608,"text":"你們阿彌陀佛哪來的地?現在因為御官懂得寫字,八十年以前是實施戰地政務,八十以後馬祖哪有什麼地政事務所?陳雪生下雪的時候生的,陳耳隆是耳朵隆了,陳瞎眼是眼睛瞎了,名字是正本來的,是不是?那你們現在這樣子登記,"},{"start":1485.205,"end":1511.267,"text":"一個是62年的問題嘛62年才成立地政局才給馬祖老百姓登記土地你現在要他說要舉證82年要舉證老頭子已經走光啦老頭子走光怎麼舉證嘛你說嘛怎麼舉證法院就這麼判還教你們國產署你們不告就瀆職喔還叫你們去告這什麼法官啊"},{"start":1512.728,"end":1518.06,"text":"我以前相信司法獨立,我現在不相信了。我現在不相信了。司法獨什麼立啊?"},{"start":1519.892,"end":1519.932,"text":"部長部長"},{"start":1549.827,"end":1576.161,"text":"部長我跟你報告,你說的話我一句都聽不下去,你要以行動來表示,國產署實在窮凶惡極,實在窮凶惡極我跟你講,你們是管理機關,軍備局只是使用機關,回去跟你們國產署署長好好討論一下好不好?要有慈悲的心,這個地是你們的嗎?你們自己摸摸良心,對得起自己嗎?"},{"start":1577.162,"end":1589.21,"text":"啊?對你洗自己嗎?你們要默默良心欸。好不好?請你回去齁,來。報告委員,我們這個法治的社會啦,國參署,部長剛剛所說的國參署一定是基於我們曾經有長的購買。"},{"start":1592.826,"end":1612.751,"text":"院長,我們老百姓沒念書欸,你法治的社會該講法條。 申請人在暫用時間沒有完整的這個時間才會去提出異議,否則我們都是在依照這個馬祖地區土地申請條例裡面來做依法的處理吧。好,因為時間的關係好不好。那部長你請回,我想請衛福部部長跟院長報告,我們最近馬祖民眾送來的都會做斷層掃描嘛。"},{"start":1620.229,"end":1647.371,"text":"緊急醫療護送馬祖不是部立醫院在選舉的時候曾經有人講說馬祖要部立醫院馬祖有馬祖特殊的一個環境好,我們現在的斷層掃描用了幾年院長知道嗎這是全世界全中華民國最舊的一部電腦斷層20年了斷層造完以後拿到台灣來,到醫院去看不清楚"},{"start":1648.752,"end":1675.977,"text":"再重蹈一次,這種輻射對人體的傷害我們還不談,浪費時間嘛,搶救生命嘛,是不是?所以院長我拜託,今天部長也在齁,送我們一台斷人掃描好不好?部長研究看看怎麼樣提高馬祖地區我們的醫療水準跟服務。我們會做成使用計畫,報到衛福部來。是不是請部長幫個忙,送我們一台斷人掃描,不要!"},{"start":1676.693,"end":1702.546,"text":"在那邊照完以後,送到這邊來上船,船裡又模模糊糊,看不清楚啊。再照一次。報告委員,我想我也會跟我們馬祖那邊的醫界都是好朋友,我再來跟他討論,說現在的情況是怎麼樣。一定要讓馬祖的民眾得到相當好的一個儀器來檢查治療。好,我想謝謝院長,謝謝部長。"},{"start":1706.827,"end":1729.717,"text":"還有一個事,高雄飛馬祖航線,我還要請你幫忙。高雄飛馬祖?馬祖有兩座機場,那從台灣到馬祖,這是你們交通部的事嘛,是行政院的事嘛。難道要老闆去買飛機或是縣政府買飛機來運載客人嗎?不可能嘛。所以你們有刑的便利,有刑的責任吧,是不是?"},{"start":1731.124,"end":1756.536,"text":"所以最近開了很多的會,我也要求交通部,拜託他們。新的部長也非常的謙虛、非常的客氣。我拜託他們,你找民航局找這些,看看怎麼做嘛。你用包機,他一趟要72萬來回。72萬一張票等於是多少呢?要5000塊。5000塊觀光客怎麼肯來?是不是?觀光客一直講說希望弄高雄飛馬祖的航線。"},{"start":1757.729,"end":1780.493,"text":"一直的提,我想請院長或是部長回答我一下好不好?報告委員,我知道馬祖的航班一向都是一票難求的機會,時間相當長而且受天候的控制相當不穩定,那是不是交通部跟航空業者能夠來進一步的寫下看怎麼樣提高馬祖的運力?我想在交通委員會曾經質詢過你嘛,就希望一個月以內啊"},{"start":1781.173,"end":1803.998,"text":"部長,您認真一點督促民航局把這件事情促成,對觀光也好。我們那邊阿兵哥有一半是住在高雄中南部的。阿兵哥也不停的在叫,觀光客也不停的在叫。我們鄉親也講說要去高雄玩,去佛光山去等等。所以都沒有飛機可以搭。"},{"start":1805.671,"end":1806.071,"text":"謝謝陳委員,謝謝左院長。"},{"start":1834.605,"end":1838.155,"text":"報告院會上午質詢到此為止。本次會議"}]}},{"id":"154073","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154073","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a14da31ea7a16808f84a337f76c37b5ea5a2d5eaba877ceb843052525fe23673a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:02:37 - 11:34:11","影片長度":"00:31:34","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T11:02:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T11:34:11+08:00","duration":1894,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":400,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時2分）謝謝，我可不可以請卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：院長好。一路走來，從在臺北市議會的大學長，你經歷了所有的角色，資歷非常、非常完整，我們也期待你在行政院長任內表現可以跟過去一樣，體恤民心，站在民意的第一線。","我話不多說，因為時間非常短，30分鐘，我非常珍惜我今天的質詢時間。我長期關注相關公費疫苗注射的接種，邱泰源部長過去跟我都長期在衛環委員會，他知道我長期都非常關注相關的疫苗政策，當然，邱部長是家醫科的醫師，一定非常瞭解三段五級的醫療照顧體系非常重要，特別是在初段的醫療照顧，CP值是最高的，而且在照顧跟社會成本上，未來對於健保不必要的支出，有很大的幫助跟影響。但是我也關注到，我們對於公共衛生，包括在選舉過後，在公共醫療政策相關的一些政策上，賴總統也非常重視陳志鴻教授的意見，所以他也辦了相關的台灣論壇，也特別提到在公共醫療政策當中，比照他國國民醫療的健保支出，我們的部分占GDP總比只有7.5%，日本有11.5%，韓國有10%。也就是說，在醫療政策的支出上，比較亞鄰國家，我們相對是比較低的。部長、院長，數字在那邊，非常、非常清楚。","所以接下來，就我長期非常關注的幾項疫苗政策，我要請院長跟部長支持，特別是臺灣兒科醫學會在111年的時候就提到，對於國中男性可以公費注射HPV疫苗，特別今天有成功高中也在現場。我們都知道口腔癌，HPV就是口腔癌相關的疫苗，口腔癌現在已經是全國男性的十大癌症之一，其實口腔癌的病毒比較不容易被發現，也不是常規檢查容易發現的感染。目前全世界58個國家都以公費讓國中男性接種疫苗，臺灣目前我們有3個縣市也都有施打，雲林縣、澎湖縣跟嘉義市，我去年回到臺北市議會的時候也建議蔣市長，所以他今年9月份也要開始針對國中男性施打HPV疫苗。","這一塊我希望不要有城市、各縣市的落差，這也是男性排名十大的癌症疫苗，所以針對這一塊，部長、院長可不可以承諾有機會來評估，是不是可以全國施打公費HPV疫苗？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，報告委員，我們日前有一個內部的討論，針對這個議題有個討論，衛福部這邊有它的進程跟說明。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝院長。首先感謝委員長期對我們民眾健康整體性照顧的推動，非常地敬佩，我們的總統跟院長其實都非常重視預防保健……"],["李委員彥秀：所以部長，你只要直接回答有或沒有、要或不要！"],["邱部長泰源：所以一定往這方面來努力，目前經過討論以後，我們有將國中男生納入公費補助，目前已經編入預算。"],["李委員彥秀：感謝部長、感謝部長！我希望不要有城鄉差距。"],["邱部長泰源：應該最快114年就可以取得經費來提供兩性施打。"],["李委員彥秀：感謝部長、感謝部長、非常感謝部長！除了臺北市、嘉義市、澎湖縣，我也希望全國國中男性都有機會施打，感謝部長。","除了這個之外，有關今年50歲到64歲短期也有施打，因為23價的肺炎鏈球菌今年比較多，我們都知道肺炎鏈球菌，如果沒有施打，有時候感冒一流行，肺癌那個重症就很嚴重，所以在這一塊，我也希望你們可不可以評估未來50歲以上也可以施打23價的肺炎鏈球菌，疫苗政策是我長期關注的，我再一次強調！我非常希望50歲以上都可以施打；另外一個13價就是高風險群，大家都知道有一些高風險群，包括是糖尿病、肝硬化、慢性腎病跟癌症的患者，如果有機會高風險群13價跟23價也可以公費施打的話，我相信對於未來健保的長遠支出也可以有一些節省，這都是預防醫療政策，我也希望這方面你們可以有一個整體、更進一步的規劃。","院長，可不可以？部長一定知道！他以前在衛環委員會，這些都是跟我一樣的想法，這個模式是一樣的。所以院長，可不可以朝這方向去思考？"],["卓院長榮泰：衛福部已經針對這樣的議題做過很多的研究，但是衛福部的進程還是要他說明一下，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我想委員所提的這些建議都是非常需要、都是很好的，而且對於國人的健康是正向的，所以我們一定好好仔細研議。"],["李委員彥秀：好。部長，最後一個就是皮蛇、帶狀疱疹，院長，你一定聽過，這個費用真的很高、很高！我不敢說全國都可以公費施打，但我們也可以有第一步、也就是高風險群，我們先試著來試辦一下，因為一得皮蛇、帶狀疱疹，有可能是終生的疼痛。我不敢這樣，因為一劑五、六千塊，第二劑八千塊，特別是中低收入戶或是高風險群，我們可不可以先試著做做看？我覺得對於未來健保的相關費用支出其實也都可以有幫助，剛剛我有提，健康照顧CP值是最高的，所以對於健保的節省也是有幫助的。部長，你們一併考慮，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好！"],["李委員彥秀：一個月之內給我一個期程規劃，有什麼想法，給我一個你未來的milestone怎麼走，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會與專家來仔細研議，提供未來可以做的方向。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝部長，請回。","接下來我要關注產假的部分，院長，我們臺灣的孕婦罹患憂鬱症的機率非常高，憂鬱症的部分其實高達兩成，我們都知道臺灣現在女性晚婚的機率非常高，特別是我們現在憂鬱症的狀況，按照現在公開的數據，高齡產婦中，7位產後憂鬱症婦女有1位有可能會自殺，所以我們現在針對年輕人有免費的心理諮商，所以我也希望有機會幫孕婦爭取1萬塊的心理諮商的服務，讓有需要的孕婦個人也好，或者是一些新手、有這些傾向的夫妻，他也可以接受一些心理諮詢，這個都是在打造更好的育兒環境我覺得前端我們應該做的。","賴總統在選舉的時候，提到的都是托育、照育的政策，但是前端沒有生孩子，後面有再多的托育中心、有更好的場所都沒有意義，所以打造更好的、友善的育兒環境，這一塊也很重要，所以這一塊有沒有辦法也一起來評估？"],["邱部長泰源：為了促進孕產婦的心理健康，其實衛福部已經結合地方政府辦理孕產婦心理健康宣導活動以及教育訓練，並在孕婦的健康手冊上提供……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，這個我都知道，但是這不同，這是心理諮詢電話，是打電話跟以前張老師一樣，心理諮商師的功能是不一樣的……"],["邱部長泰源：後續怎麼樣做得更好……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，所以我要跟你強調，因為我是女性，我生過小孩所以我知道，我曾經也有過一小小段時間有憂鬱症，我也請教過心理諮商師，所以我非常清楚知道他的重要性，部長，我們來研究看看好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["李委員彥秀：因為產後婦女的憂鬱症導致曾經有自殺的情形，對孩子也不好……"],["邱部長泰源：對，所以我們現在有第四孕期的觀念。"],["李委員彥秀：我們每一個孩子要照顧得好，也要靠父母，所以這個部分我們趕快來思考看看，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有機會？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一直在推動青少年的心理諮商，前一陣子……"],["李委員彥秀：這個我知道，提供免費諮商，所以孕婦也很重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：前一陣子跟一些媽媽在討論這件事情的時候，他們有提到對孕婦心理輔導的這個工作……"],["李委員彥秀：所以院長你也支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得我們應該要深入的去瞭解，目前政府可以做更多、更好的是什麼。"],["李委員彥秀：所以院長有交代，你要去思考在經費上支持心理諮商師，我們看我們能怎麼做，初步能怎麼做，看預算的執行，但是我覺得要跨出第一步，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會謹慎研議，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：好，感謝部長。接下來請勞動部的何部長。院長，因為我是女性，我有生過小孩，我非常知道打造育兒的環境，目前我們是8週的產假，是以前民國18年的工廠法，8週的產假，過去民國18年的時候，工廠法是8週的產假，我們現在是113年、2024年，我們還在8週的產假，鄰近國家其實都已經10週、12週、14週，我不敢跟那麼多國家比，但是不分朝野黨派的委員都覺得臺灣的產假事實上是要延長的。","所以我之前也到委員會去質詢過部長，我有提出薪資公共化，既然勞保撥補也是一個改革的政策，我更認為薪資公共化就是從撥補開始，跨出那第一步，雖然我的版本是14週，我覺得行政院也提出誠意出來，無論你覺得可以10週、12週，那都是第一步，這就是政府的決心。","我覺得臺灣現在少子化，今年才13萬這麼少，人家都在笑說臺灣的寵物登記每年都有一百多萬，所以我覺得「質」很重要，讓婦女願意生小孩，早一點結婚、早一點生小孩，這一塊我真的苦口婆心，我們過去有許部長，但是這一塊沒有做到，現在又是一個女性的何部長，我真的希望在產假的部分，不要光說要討論，但是事實上完全沒有跨出那第一步。","所以院長你可不可以直接交代下去，要有一些進程、要進行討論，你們不是說要打開社會溝通嗎？人民優先誠意溝通，人民溝通的程序在哪裡？你根本都沒有溝通過，所以無論是跟產業界溝通，其實薪資公共化就是內部溝通，勞保都可以撥補、台電也可以撥補，那產假薪資公共化這一塊當然也可以做，只是說你的能力、財源有多少，如今年9週，明年、後年10週，這對於賴清德來說，也是重視婦女生育，讓大家看到他的決心，院長可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長有跟勞雇雙方來進行溝通，請部長說明……"],["李委員彥秀：不是跟我溝通喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：勞雇雙方。"],["李委員彥秀：是勞雇雙方，你撥補的話，有時候是財主單位就可以撥補啊！你不要說勞雇雙方而已，有時候產業界溝通是一塊，但是你有其他的手段、你有工具嘛，對不？院長，你很清楚，你的資歷非常完整，所以我才說你只要願意，你交辦下去，其實你們的工具很多，都可以做得到……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望……"],["李委員彥秀：因為我今天時間有限……"],["卓院長榮泰：勞動部跟勞雇雙方的溝通多聽聽社會各界的聲音……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：衡量我們現在的社會條件……"],["李委員彥秀：那其他的，薪資你也可以撥補嘛！因為他說勞保撥補也是一個改革，那產假薪資公共化也可以用撥補的方式，我們跨出那第一步，大家各退一步，我撥補一週，資方撥補一週，那也是一種方向嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：他已經在研究相關的事情……"],["李委員彥秀：這個就是談判的過程……"],["卓院長榮泰：已經有研究……"],["李委員彥秀：別說都沒講，過去講那麼久……"],["卓院長榮泰：簡單跟委員報告一下……"],["李委員彥秀：過去朝野黨派、立委都提出很多版本出來，但是從來沒有溝通過，就是立院提立院高興的，但是從來都沒有動過，我不希望卓行政團隊也是一個這樣子的團隊，我對你有期許。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經在討論，在落實這樣子的討論了。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝、謝謝，請部長回座。","院長，因為我今天的議題很多，我接下來要問危老條例，過去你是臺北市議員，曾經當過臺北市議員，臺北、全國可以更漂亮，每一次地震過後，我們都說都更很重要，我要提危老條例，現在已經實施8年，我們目前在危老條例的重建數只有3,600件。院長，我覺得每一個條例實施到一個階段的時候我們都要檢討，為什麼只有3,600件？部長，你對3,600件滿不滿意？你覺得可不可以更多、更好？"],["劉部長世芳：我們當然預期希望能夠高一點。"],["李委員彥秀：對，我們可不可以去檢視，其實30年以上屋齡的房屋，如果30年屋齡以上的房屋用3,600件計算的話，它只有達到萬分之七。所以危老條例當時是一個好的政策，我們應該去檢討它到底問題出在哪裡，為什麼申請危老條例的人這麼少、臺灣都更的腳步這麼緩慢？當然它有很多人民自己的意願，但是有更多的政府的工具。我一直在講政府工具、政府工具，我們怎麼樣可以做得更多？當實行了每一個階段之後，它不夠好或意願不夠高的時候，我們就應該去調整它的政策。所以這一塊，我覺得包括在這次地震過後，我們有貼紅、黃單，紅、黃單其實我們有一些補助，所以我覺得包括紅、黃單，我不希望它只是因為0403的地震補助，當然補助我覺得全國都可以去檢視，或者你現在的政策工具就是降低其都更的門檻。","除了降低都更門檻，以花蓮的天王星為例，它之前在2018年的時候也被貼黃單，後來經過修繕之後，黃單就撤了，這一次今年的0403地震之後，它還是傾斜了，所以凸顯證明有時候擦脂抹粉其實效果還是有限，真正要讓人民住的安全，我們還是鼓勵重建。","所以危老條例我一直要拜託部長、拜託院長，我們要去檢討我們有什麼樣的政策工具，或者危老條例要不要去做調整，讓人民的意願可以加快或意願更高，比如容積率的增加還有中繼住宅，我們社宅裡面要有多的中繼住宅，讓改建的過程當中有地方可以住。特別很多長輩，你叫他搬去很遠的地方做都更，他就想他年紀這麼大了，要他都更，他不要都更，他留給下一代，但是當發生地震、發生狀況的時候，每一條失去的生命都是我們不樂意見到的。所以部長，危老條例跟中繼宅，我要拜託您，我們可不可以進一步地去做檢討？"],["劉部長世芳：是，非常謝謝委員的關心，我想你點到重點了，危老跟都更的部分，最大的重點是在裡面居住的住民的溝通不足，如果你要降低整體要同意的門檻……"],["李委員彥秀：但是還是有我們可以做的，其實除了溝通，我剛剛講了，其實民間要努力溝通啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對，這是最難的，我想……"],["李委員彥秀：但是你的政策工具還是可以釋出更多吧！因為我們都希望4年的任內，如果中央對母法可以有一些調整，我們去思考看看嘛！你不要只是講說是民意的溝通，我覺得你同時放蘿蔔出來，我給一定的時間，兩年之內，我給你們更高的容積，對不起，兩年之後你都不願意進來，我就收回我的獎勵嘛！這是一種方式跟方向，我們就來看，我放給你更多，危老申請的人有沒有更多。我覺得我是提醒你們可以朝這方向去思考，還有中繼宅，社宅給年輕人很好……"],["劉部長世芳：我們有朝這個方向在檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：但一部分我們也留給中繼宅，讓更多人、讓全國的都更腳步可以加快……"],["劉部長世芳：是，如果……"],["李委員彥秀：安全宅可以更多，韌性臺灣可以加強，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是，您提到中繼宅的部分，它就是時間上的落差，也就是說，危老都更要重建的時候，社宅建好了沒有，如果建好了，你空等在那邊2、3年的時間，只是為了要給中繼宅的話，反而會誤了原來想要申請社宅的這些年輕人，所以這個timing是個很大的考慮重點。"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，部長，我都尊重，因為現在包租代管的政策有很多，除了社宅之外，包租代管也是可以。"],["劉部長世芳：我們可以考慮。"],["李委員彥秀：我沒有說一定要社宅。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["李委員彥秀：社宅有限，包租代管也要趕快去做。院長，包租代管我下次再問，因為包租代管我也有意見可以讓你們……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["劉部長世芳：我們已經做了八萬多。"],["李委員彥秀：我也在想辦法讓社宅、讓居住正義衝到100萬，其實蔡英文的20萬是加在賴清德裡面才有100萬啦。"],["劉部長世芳：25萬。"],["李委員彥秀：這個我不要講了，不要浪費我的時間，但是有很多工具，包租代管、民間把空屋拿出來出租，或做社宅或做中繼宅，這也是一個方式。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我就說政府有工具，你要不要做就是你的決心了。"],["劉部長世芳：有，我們會一起檢討改進。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝部長，你請回。我下一個政策要問能源相關的狀況。院長，最近很多委員關注能源政策，能源政策已經不只是我們立法院在野黨關心，我相信執政黨也很關心，產業界也很關心，美國商會也很關心，要做AI，2028之後，不可能到2028，光是做一個電廠也要花5、6年的時間，光是做一個AI的企業，投資一個AI數據中心可能要花20億美金。如果是我投資一個上百億的產業，我要放在臺灣，我就不可能讓我的產業有不確定性，所以穩定的供電、穩定的電價是最大的兩塊，也是美國商會提到最重要的兩件事情，所以我如果投資20億、上百億將AI產業放在臺灣的話，我希望它是一個長久可以讓我留在這邊的地方。","50年前的政府有這個智慧可以看到台積電，我也希望卓政府、賴政府可以看到臺灣未來有穩定的供電，你沒有穩定供電，人家就是不來，這是很現實的問題，所以臺灣的電足不足夠，讓產業界放不放心，我知道你們有你們的說法，但是至少美國商會、臺灣的民眾，大家都對於臺灣供電到底夠不夠的問題很關心，不要跟我講2030夠，2030之後難道不關我的事嗎？難道不關賴清德的事嗎？我相信這不是你的態度，我就不要問你了，但是我想你一定知道用電很重要、供電很重要，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然瞭解委員的擔心，但是我們也有我們的方式。"],["李委員彥秀：你要說清楚，因為你現在說的方式沒有辦法說服大眾，院長，現在你的說法沒有辦法說服大眾，不要說臺灣對於桃園輪流供電、小琉球停電，連美國商會都對於你們的綠能，接下來核二、核三不能延役，大家都在想到底電從哪裡來？我投資一個上百億或20億美金的AI公司，但是2030之後電不知道在哪裡，人家當然會覺得我到底要不要投資，郭部長來自產業界很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：到2030年，部長是經過詳細的計算，他也對工期有詳細的掌握。"],["李委員彥秀：他不能只看到2030。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓電廠、新的電廠能夠起來……"],["李委員彥秀：他要看到30年之後、50年之後的臺灣，你才有辦法把這5個到6個，不止5個到6個，我們希望產業有群聚效應，多一點留在臺灣，AI的產業全部都留在臺灣，這才是我們的驕傲，才是我們的護國群山，對不對？院長，你瞭解我的意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下。"],["李委員彥秀：等一下，因為我的主題在下一個。院長，今天我關注了去年總統在選舉的時候，他到臺大去參加校園馬拉松的論壇，有學生提到打仗的時候電力中斷怎麼辦？他當時是賴副總統，他說正在規劃用核電作為緊急備用的選項。打仗的時候電力中斷怎麼辦？他說用核電作為緊急備用的選項，我要請問部長跟院長，這件事情現在是不是還在持續討論當中？打仗的話電力中斷，是不是還是用核電？你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們希望那個前提不會發生，再來……"],["李委員彥秀：我也不希望發生，但是備戰，你有必要，現在還在備戰狀態嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，以核電作為緊急備用選項的這件事情……"],["李委員彥秀：這個是賴清德對學生說的，在臺大說的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，當時核三廠是正常在運作，但現在我們面臨核三廠要除役的時候，我們必須面對現在核三廠1號機要除役的問題。"],["李委員彥秀：所以就不是核電了，是不是？我現在要確認這個答案，打仗的時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你應該知道，核電……"],["李委員彥秀：我現在問你的是賴清德講的，不是我講的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員也知道，核電廠除役是法定的年限到了要除役，如果要延役的話，它必須經過一個安全檢查的程序，這個程序是3年半到5年，這個時間是不可以發電的。"],["李委員彥秀：所以也就是說打仗的時候電力中斷的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，3年半到5年是不可以發電，這個核三廠的1號機，除非它經過安全的檢查。"],["李委員彥秀：好，院長，那我就接著你的話，也就是說核二、核三已經停役了，所以如果打仗電力中斷的時候，我們也沒有所謂的核電機組做緊急備用的選項……"],["卓院長榮泰：國家在緊急的狀況之下……"],["李委員彥秀：這個選項已經不見了？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在所有的電力，我們儘量維持它正常運作。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道啊！我現在是問你，因為當時臺大學生說如果電力中斷怎麼辦？當時的賴副總統回答說我們是要把核電做暫時備用選項，所以我是拿當時賴副總統的話來問你們，但是你現在回答我的是說核電已經不是選項了。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果經過了安全檢查，它還是可以用的話，那也許是一個選項，目前這個程序無法開始啊！"],["李委員彥秀：所以現在3年到5年……因為停機要5年之後啊！整個評估完。還是說你有特別的程序……"],["卓院長榮泰：你的前提是3年到5年國家會緊急，但我們現在狀況不是這樣發展啊！"],["李委員彥秀：好，我知道核二、核三停機有它的SOP標準，但是面臨打仗特殊的狀況有沒有特別的程序？我現在就是問你這個問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然國家會有準備的啊！"],["李委員彥秀：什麼準備？就是對核能你會有別的準備方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：這3、5年當中，核三廠、核二廠要運作來發電，目前看在法令的限制下是不可能的。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，我尊重，但是這是賴清德說的，如果打仗的話，對於戰時的核能用電，你們的準備方向有嗎？我只問你有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果說它能夠經過安全檢查，那是未來的問題，所以我們有句話說未來的問題來解決今天的問題是有點困難……"],["李委員彥秀：我不希望打仗，但是它有可能是進程的問題，院長，它有可能是進程的問題，所以我才問你它還是選項嗎？如果是打仗的話，你剛剛講說3、5年，對於核三好了，把它當作打仗的備用選項，你們的程序是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照核三廠，現在到七月二十幾號，它必須要除役……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道它不行，依照我們現況是不行。但是打仗的話，你會不會有特殊、特別的作法？面對打仗的時期，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：緊急的情況底下，國家的準備當然是有的。"],["李委員彥秀：核三是選項？"],["卓院長榮泰：核三3、5年當中它不可能發電……"],["李委員彥秀：所以打仗時它也不會是選項？"],["卓院長榮泰：它沒有辦法發電，怎麼會是選項？"],["李委員彥秀：它是先停機，然後檢查……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，是時間到它就必須除役，除役5年前就要展開……"],["李委員彥秀：你現在講的就是它不會是選項嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：事實是如此。"],["李委員彥秀：所以當時我覺得賴副總統他不應該……"],["卓院長榮泰：依照法令規定是如此。"],["李委員彥秀：那他當時就不應該在臺大跟學生這麼說，因為他非常清楚核二、核三，身為副總統，以前是行政院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你的前提是3、5年內，未來有新的核能發展的時候，那又是另外一種討論了。"],["李委員彥秀：那個是未來，我剛才一開始就提了一個核電發電廠的產生……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的前提是3、5年內會打仗，我們覺得這應該不是現在……"],["李委員彥秀：我當然希望不是，但是我是說要備戰啦！所以我才問你嘛！隨時都要備戰，如果電力一中斷……"],["卓院長榮泰：有其他的原因，當然我們從現在的發電機組發展更多的綠能，這個都是備案之一啊！我們發展更多的再生能源，這都是備案啦！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我不希望……因為我們都熟悉彼此非常久，就這個問題，我也不是在刁難你，我只是不希望發生打仗，我更不希望發生電力中斷，但是這是去年賴副總統在選舉跟臺大學生的回應，那我也很憂心，萬一真的打仗、電力中斷，我們的備用電是從哪裡來？所以我不知道你們的準備方案是什麼？我就幫國人和所有的產業界請問你們，萬一打仗電力中斷，你的備用電是什麼？它不一定是3、5年以後，有可能是進程，有可能明年、後年，我不知道，當然我不希望它發生，但是你們解決的方向顯然是還沒有準備好。"],["卓院長榮泰：有準備的，當然是有準備。"],["李委員彥秀：那就要對國人說明清楚，這個是我的第四個問題。","最後一個，部長跟院長，前一陣子部長提到說未來要讓台電自負盈虧、不再撥補，這個到底是不是行政院的政策，也是賴總統的政策？台電要自負盈虧，各部會要自己回到撥補，除了穩住民生跟小家店用電，未來大戶要讓他們自己去調整，要調整電價，這到底在電價部分是不是賴政府、卓政府的方向？"],["卓院長榮泰：先請部長說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，電價的部分由電價審議委員來決定……"],["李委員彥秀：沒有啦，撥補的事情……"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分有法的規定……"],["李委員彥秀：不，不，但是這個是你講的，未來要讓台電自負盈虧，未來撥補的部分要多調整大戶用電，讓台電自負並要講求成本，你講求成本效益在民間企業，我覺得有你的邏輯，但這個是不是未來整個政府的方向？未來各部會，醫院就由衛福部自己補、學校就由教育部自己補貼經費，未來就是多調整大戶用電，這個政策你們有沒有跟行政院討論過？院長，你知道部長講過這個話嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，來，我先問院長。"],["郭部長智輝：電不是經濟部可以決定的。"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，部長，你不要占用我的時間。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是行政院。"],["李委員彥秀：你一直講，主席時間暫停，抱歉，我要拜託院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我剛剛說過，我們請部長跟很多的閣員進來，希望他用企業管理的精神來管理政府，讓我們更有效率，提出的方法……"],["李委員彥秀：但是我想問，因為這個政策影響非常大，所以我想知道未來整個用電不再補……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員彥秀：是！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果他提出管理的方式可以讓台電經營的好……"],["李委員彥秀：喔！你知道這個政策……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在他提出這個方式，我們還沒有經過很深入的、具體的討論，但他的想法我能夠理解，他要用企業管理來管理台電，這個方向絕對是對的，能達到什麼樣的程度，讓台電在企業效率上能夠做到更好，這個必須大家共同努力。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我知道你要講什麼，但是我覺得台電來自企業界就是成本自行吸收，我清楚他的邏輯是重視成本效益，我清楚。但是台電肩負著國家不合理的能源政策，買電買得很貴，有很多過去的原因我就不再提了，這樣的方向……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是不合理的能源政策，國家發展綠能的政策……"],["李委員彥秀：這樣的方向，包括……綠能，我也支持，但是包括未來用電大戶的調漲，對於整體的經濟影響也會非常大……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員彥秀：這個你們自己去決定，但是央行那邊根本都不知道你要調整這件事情，所以我覺得丟出來一個沒有很成熟的政策，其實是非常危險的啦！所以我不知道院長到底支不支持這樣的政策？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來的電價還是優先以穩定民生的用電為最大的原則，大用戶多負擔一點，我想在整個社會的觀感跟公平性來看，也應該是正確的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，院長，最後一個我問你，今年9月電價到底要不要漲？因為你上個禮拜回答其他委員朝向穩定的方向，到底要不要漲？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是電價審議委員會在處理啦，但是基於種種考量……"],["李委員彥秀：經濟部會送一個版本，審議委員會只是同意或不同意而已耶，到底9月份要不要漲？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們當然會……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，因為一漲，央行可能又要升息，通膨會起來，央行都好緊張，所以這影響全國通膨很嚴重，你的薪資今年漲百分之三、百分之四，全部人民的實質薪資都被吃掉了，所以實質薪資、總薪資是倒退的，一漲影響非常大，到底會不會漲？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價審議委員會會來處理。"],["李委員彥秀：你送的版本到底會不會漲？"],["卓院長榮泰：到時候會看社會條件跟經過專家的評估，電價審議委員會做最終處理。"],["李委員彥秀：那你會不會送？是不漲、凍漲還是要讓它漲？"],["郭部長智輝：這個不是經濟部可以決定的。"],["李委員彥秀：經濟部會送版本到審議委員會，有一個版本，你是支持還是不支持？Yes or No而已？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在沒有辦法預測這件事情。"],["主席：好。"],["李委員彥秀：你上個禮拜不是說朝向穩定的方向嗎？這個禮拜我問你你就不回答了。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然朝穩定的方向啊！因為3月、9月檢討是固定的時程，但一定是朝穩定方向，不會增加民生用電的方向。"],["李委員彥秀：朝向不漲就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：朝向部長？"],["李委員彥秀：朝向不漲、凍漲。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：朝向穩定的供應。"],["主席：時間到了，請部長後續再跟李委員做補充，我們謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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謝謝院長首先感謝我們委員長期對我們民眾健康整體性的一個照顧的一個推動非常的敬佩那我們的總統跟院長其實都非常重視預防保證所以部長你只要直接回答有阿沒阿買阿買阿所以一定往這方面來努力那目前已經經過討論以後我們有將國中男生納入公會"},{"start":250.998,"end":270.049,"text":"感謝部長感謝部長我希望不要有成家差距感謝部長感謝部長非常感謝部長因為除了台北市嘉義縣然後澎湖縣我也希望全國國中的男性都有機會施打除了這個之外我們今年50歲到64歲因為我們"},{"start":272.31,"end":272.45,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":294.981,"end":322.498,"text":"這是一塊我疫苗診所長期關注再次強調非常希望50歲以上都可以施打然後另外一個13架就是高風險群大家都知道有一些高風險群包括是糖尿病肝硬化慢性腎病跟癌症的患者如果有機會高風險群13架跟23架我們也可以公費施打的話我相信對於未來健保的支出長遠"},{"start":323.439,"end":326.641,"text":"衛部已經針對這樣的議題有做過很多的研究了但是衛部的這個進程還是要大家說明一下好不好"},{"start":353.359,"end":370.18,"text":"好,是的,我想委員所提的這些建議都是非常需要,都是很好的,而且對於國民的健康是正向的,所以我們一定好好仔細研議。好,部長最後一個啦,就是那個肥爪啦,帶狀性炮針,院長你一定聽到啦。"},{"start":371.101,"end":391.613,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":391.873,"end":392.013,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":410.379,"end":425.13,"text":"部長,我們一併考慮好不好?那一個月之內給我一個期程規劃,有什麼想法給我一個你的未來的你的milestones好不好?好,我們會以專家仔細來演繹,來提供未來可以做的方向。"},{"start":425.75,"end":443.674,"text":"謝謝部長。接下來我要關注產價的部分。院長,我們台灣的孕婦的憂鬱症其實機率非常高,憂鬱症的部分其實高達兩成。我們都知道台灣現在女性晚婚的機率非常高,特別是我們現在憂鬱症的狀況,"},{"start":446.115,"end":474.956,"text":"高齡產婦七位產後的憂鬱症婦女有一位有可能會自殺按照數據上現在這是公開的數據所以我們現在針對於年輕人有心理諮商的免費所以我也希望說有機會幫孕婦也爭取有一萬塊的心理諮商的服務讓有需要的孕婦個人也好或者是一些新手有這些傾向的夫妻他也可以接受一些心理諮詢這個都是在打造"},{"start":475.657,"end":475.777,"text":"為了促進"},{"start":504.076,"end":511.945,"text":"因產婦的心理健康,其實衛福部已經結合地方政府辦理因產婦心理健康宣導活動以及教育訓練。"},{"start":513.013,"end":537.733,"text":"並在孕婦的健康措施上提供兩年。部長這個我都知道,但是這不夠,這心理諮詢、電話、電話都已經張老師趕快,那個心理諮商師的功能是不一樣的。部長,所以我要跟你強調,因為我是女性,我生過小孩,所以我知道,我曾經也有過一小小段時間有憂鬱症,我也請教過心理諮商師,所以我非常清楚知道他的重要性。部長,我們來研究看看好不好?"},{"start":539.574,"end":540.975,"text":"我們一直在推動青少年的心理智商"},{"start":555.602,"end":582.948,"text":"前一陣子跟那些媽媽在討論這個事情的時候他們倒有提到對孕婦的心理的輔導這個工作我覺得我們可以應該要深入的去了解目前政府可以做更多更好的是什麼事情所以院長有交代你要去思考這個經費上的支持心理諮商是我們看我們能怎麼做初步能怎麼看預算的執行但是我覺得要跨出第一步好不好"},{"start":583.648,"end":600.863,"text":"好,感謝部長,那我接下來就要請那個勞動部的何部長,院長因為我是女性,我又生過小孩,我非常知道打造育兒的環境,我們目前8週的產假以前是工廠法民國18年,8週的產假過去是100,民國18年的時候工廠法8週的產假,我們現在是113年2024年,我們還在8週的產假,鄰近國家其實都已經"},{"start":612.833,"end":612.953,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":628.035,"end":648.687,"text":"你既然勞保波普也是一個改革的政策我更認為薪資公共化就是從波普開始跨出那第一步雖然我的版本是14週我覺得你們行政院也提出誠意出來無論你覺得可以10週12週那都是第一步這就是政府的決心"},{"start":649.858,"end":649.998,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":679.958,"end":697.448,"text":"所以院長你可不可以直接交代下去要有一些競爭要進行討論你們不是說要打開社會溝通嗎人民優先誠意溝通人民溝通的程序在哪裡你根本都沒有溝通過所以無論是跟產業界溝通阿其實心智公共化就是內部溝通而已阿"},{"start":697.688,"end":714.138,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":715.167,"end":732.789,"text":"議員長可以嗎?不是跟我溝通喔!勞僱雙方。勞僱雙方,啊你撥補的話有時候就是你財主單位就可以撥補啊,你不要說勞僱雙方而已啦。有時候財業界溝通是一塊,但是其他的手段,你有工具嘛。"},{"start":733.67,"end":759.903,"text":"對不對,一定你很清楚嘛,你的資歷非常完整,所以我才說,你只要願意,你交辦下去,其實你們工具很多都可以做得到。因為我今天時間有限了。我知道,那其他的你薪資來,你也可以撥補嘛,因為他說撥補也是一個改革,勞保撥補也是一個改革,那你薪資,產價薪資公共化也可以用撥補的方式我們跨出那第一步。"},{"start":760.683,"end":763.108,"text":"大家各退一步,我撥補一周,然後資方撥補一周,那也是一種方向嘛。這個就是談判的過程啦。"},{"start":772.335,"end":797.407,"text":"過去朝野黨派立委都提出很多版本出來但是從來沒有溝通過就是立院提立院高興了但是從來都沒有動過我不希望左行政團隊也是一個這樣子的團隊我對你有期許我們已經在討論在落實這樣子的討論了接下來院長因為我已經議題很多我接下來要問危老條例過去你是台北市議員"},{"start":799.013,"end":821.701,"text":"曾經當過臺北市議員臺北全國可以更漂亮每次地震過後我們都說都更很重要我要提一個危老條例現在已經實施8年我們目前在危老條例重建數只有3600件我覺得院長每一個條例實施到一個階段的時候我們都要檢討為什麼3600件只有3600件保定你對3600件你滿不滿意"},{"start":828.163,"end":851.64,"text":"你覺得可不可以更多更好?我們當然預期希望能夠高一點。對,那我們可不可以去檢視說他其實30年以上的屋齡房屋只在如果用30年屋齡以上房屋用3600件計算的話他只有達到萬分之七。所以危老條例當時是一個好的政策我們應該去檢討他到底問題出在哪裡?為什麼申請危老條例的人這麼少?臺灣都更的腳步這麼緩慢當然"},{"start":854.482,"end":854.602,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":878.511,"end":894.402,"text":"紅黃單其實我們有一些補助所以我覺得包括紅黃單他不是我不希望他只是因為0403的地震的補助當然補助我覺得全國都可以去檢視但是或者是你現在的政策工具就是降低他都跟的門檻"},{"start":895.743,"end":923.328,"text":"那除了降低渡客門檻以花蓮的天王星為例﹖他之前在2018年的時候也被貼黃單﹖後來施壓給混亂沒了﹖黃單就撤了﹖這一次今年的04、03地震之後他還是就傾斜了﹖所以凸顯證明有時候擦脂抹粉其實效果還是有限﹖真正要讓人民住的安全我們還是鼓勵重建﹖"},{"start":924.108,"end":950.792,"text":"所以說危老條例我一直要拜託部長拜託院長我們要去檢討就是說我們有什麼樣政策工具或者危老條例要不要去做調整讓人民的意願可以加快或意願更高比如說容居率的增加還有中繼住宅我們社宅裡面要有更多的中繼住宅讓改建的過程當中有地方可以住特別很多長輩你叫他說搬去很遠的地方做都更"},{"start":951.292,"end":951.492,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":967.958,"end":982.596,"text":"是,非常謝謝委員關心。我想你點到重點,危老跟都更的部分,最大的重點是在於裡面居住的住民的溝通不足。如果你要降低整體的同意,我們可以做,其實除了溝通,我剛剛講了,溝通其實最難的,但是你的政策工具,"},{"start":985.299,"end":1004.804,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1004.804,"end":1004.864,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":1029.631,"end":1030.791,"text":"因為現在包租代管的政策"},{"start":1053.899,"end":1072.227,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1072.327,"end":1075.028,"text":"我下一個政策要問能源相關的狀況,院長最近很多委員關注能源政策,"},{"start":1100.879,"end":1124.059,"text":"能源政策已經不是我們在立法院在野黨關心,我相信執政黨也很關心,產業界也很關心,美國商會也很關心。要做AI,2028之後,不可能到2020,光是做一個電廠也要花5、6年的時間。光是做一個AI的企業投資,可能是一個AI的數據中心,它是花20億美金。"},{"start":1126.54,"end":1151.374,"text":"如果是我投資一個上百億的產業我要放在臺灣我就不可能讓我的產業不確定性所以穩定的供電穩定的電價它是最大兩塊也是美國商會提到最重要兩件事情所以我如果投資20億上百億AI產業放在臺灣的話我希望它是一個長久可以讓我留在這邊的地方"},{"start":1152.128,"end":1152.228,"text":"﹚李彥秀﹚"},{"start":1168.146,"end":1169.387,"text":"我當然了解委員的擔心,但是我們也有我們的方式。"},{"start":1196.527,"end":1223.476,"text":"你現在說的東西沒有辦法說服大眾。院長你現在你的說法沒有辦法說服大眾。不要說臺灣對於桃園輪流供電小油球在停電連美國商會都對於你們的綠能接下來合二合三不能演繹大家都想說到底電從哪裡來我投資一個上百億或20億美金的AI公司但是2030之後電不知道在哪裡人家當然會覺得我"},{"start":1224.116,"end":1233.841,"text":"到底要不要投資?所以郭部長來自產業界很清楚。他不能只看到2030他要看到30年之後50年之後的臺灣你才有辦法把這些5個到6個還不止5個到6個我們希望產業有群聚的效應多一點都留在臺灣AI的產業全部都留在臺灣這才是我們的驕傲嘛才是我們的護國群山嘛對不對院長你了解我的意思請部長說明一下"},{"start":1254.011,"end":1278.41,"text":"那等一下因為我的主題在下一個喔院長今天我關注到去年總統在選舉的時候他到台大去參加校園馬拉松的論壇他提有學生提到說打仗的時候電力中斷怎麼辦他說相關單位正在他當時是賴副總統他說正在規劃用核電作為緊急備用的選項"},{"start":1280.509,"end":1294.825,"text":"打仗的時候電力中斷怎麼辦?他說用核電做緊急備用的選項。我要請問部長跟院長,這件事情現在是不是還在持續討論當中?打仗的話電力中斷是不是還是用核電?你知道嗎?"},{"start":1296.175,"end":1316.647,"text":"第一個我們希望那個前提不會發生。我也不希望會發生,但是備戰你要有必要,現在還在備戰狀態嗎?核電作為緊急備用選項。這個是賴清德對學生說的,在台大說的。當時核三廠的運作是正常在運作,但現在我們面臨核三廠要處理的時候,那我們必須面對現在核三廠一號機要處理的問題。"},{"start":1318.914,"end":1341.07,"text":"所以就不是核電了是不是?我現在要確認這個答案。打仗的時候,因為這是,我現在問你是賴清德講的,不是我講的。是,我也知道,核電廠除役是法定的年限,到了要除役。如果要研議的話,它必須經過一個安全檢查的程序。這個程序是3年半到5年,這個時間是不可以發電的。所以也就是說,打仗的時候電力中斷呢?"},{"start":1343.172,"end":1361.78,"text":"這個3年半到5年是不可以發電,這個核三廠的一號機,不會讓你有安全的檢查。所以也就是說,好院長,院長那我就接著你的話,也就是說,核二核三已經停役了,所以如果打仗的時候,電力中斷的時候,我們也沒有所謂的核電機組做緊急備用的選項,這個選項已經不見了。我們現在所有的電力我們盡量維持它正常的運作啊。"},{"start":1365.902,"end":1392.496,"text":"我知道,為什麼不是問你,因為當時的臺大學院是說如果電力中斷怎麼辦,所以當時的賴副總統回答說有,我們是要把核電做暫時備用選項,所以我是拿當時賴副總統的話來問你們。所以你現在回答我的是說核電已經不是選項了。如果經過了安全檢查它還是一個可以用的話,那也許是一個選項,但目前這個程序無法開始啊。"},{"start":1393.132,"end":1393.673,"text":"當然是國家會有準備的啊"},{"start":1417.413,"end":1441.27,"text":"什麼準備?就是對核能你會有別的準備方式?這三、五年當中,核三廠和核二廠要運作來發電,目前看是沒有,在法律的限制下是不可能的。我尊重,我尊重,但是這個耐心的人,那我打仗的話,對於暫時打仗時的核能用電,你們的準備方向有嗎?我只問你有沒有?"},{"start":1442.79,"end":1442.83,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":1465.725,"end":1465.945,"text":"和珊是選項?"},{"start":1488.532,"end":1497.839,"text":"三、五年當中他不可能發電所以打仗時間他也不會是選項他沒有辦法發電怎麼會是選項呢他是先停機然後檢查"},{"start":1500.317,"end":1514.583,"text":"所以你現在講的就是他不會是選項嗎?所以當時我覺得賴副總統他不應該,那他當時就不應該在臺大跟學生這麼說,因為他非常清楚,合二合三身為副總統以前是行政院長。"},{"start":1523.96,"end":1543.146,"text":"委員的問題是三、五年內會打仗﹖我當然希望不是,但是我是說要備戰啊﹖所以我才問你嘛﹖所以我才問你嘛﹖隨時都要備戰﹖從現在的發電機組﹖發展更多的綠能﹖這個都是備案之一啊﹖可是我們發展更多的再生能源﹖這都是備案啊﹖"},{"start":1543.866,"end":1560.914,"text":"院長,我很不希望,因為我們都非常,我們都熟悉彼此非常久,我都覺得這個問題我也不是在刁難你,我只是不希望發生打仗,我更不希望發生電力中斷,但是這是去年賴副總統在選舉跟臺大學生的回應,"},{"start":1561.414,"end":1561.594,"text":"那就要對國人說明清楚齁。"},{"start":1591.146,"end":1616.912,"text":"這個是我的第四個問題那最後一個部長跟院長那個前一陣子部長提到說未來要讓臺電自負盈虧不再撥補這個政策到底是不是行政院的政策也是賴總統的政策臺電要自負盈虧各部會要自己回到撥補除了穩住民生跟小家電用電未來大戶要讓他們自己"},{"start":1618.362,"end":1619.143,"text":"報告委員,這個電價的部分由這個電價審議委員來決定。"},{"start":1633.684,"end":1660.123,"text":"所以這個這部分是有法規定的。但是這個是你講的,未來要讓台電自負盈虧,未來撥補的部分,這個就未來要多調整大戶用電,然後讓這個台電自負,這個要講求成本。你講求成本效益在民間企業我覺得有你的邏輯,但是這個是不是未來整個政府的方向?"},{"start":1660.703,"end":1680.79,"text":"未來各部會,醫院就由衛福部自己補,學校就由教育部自己補貼經費,然後未來就是多調整大戶用電,因為這個政策是沒有跟行政院討論過。院長你知道這個政策,你知道部長講過這個話嗎?報告委員,這個...沒關係來來來,我先問院長,沒關係沒關係來來來,部長你不要占用我的時間,你一直講那個主席時間暫停。"},{"start":1686.012,"end":1705.309,"text":"我剛剛說過我們請部長跟很多的閣員進來希望他用企業管理的精神來管理政府讓我們更有效率但是我想問說這個政策影響非常大所以我想知道這個是不是未來的整個用電的整個不再補"},{"start":1705.93,"end":1706.83,"text":"議員長,我知道你要講什麼,但是我覺得"},{"start":1735.06,"end":1750.152,"text":"臺電來自企業界就是成本自行吸收這個我清楚他的邏輯重視成本效益我是清楚但是臺電肩負著國家不合理的能源政策買電買得很貴有很多過去的原因我就不再提了"},{"start":1751.965,"end":1778.171,"text":"不是不合理的能源政策。國家發展綠能的政策。包括綠能我也支持,但是包括未來用電大戶的調漲對於整體的經濟影響也會非常大。這個你們自己去決定。但是從央行那邊他根本都不知道你要調整這件事情。所以我覺得一個沒有很成熟的政策丟出來其實是非常危險的啦。"},{"start":1782.266,"end":1802.077,"text":"未來的電價還是以穩定民生的用電為最大的原則優先。那大用戶多負擔一點,我想在整個社會的觀感跟公平性來看也應該是正確的。好,院長我最後一個問你,今年9月電價到底要不要漲?因為你上個禮拜回答其他委員說朝向穩定的方向,到底要不要漲?"},{"start":1803.552,"end":1829.679,"text":"當然是店家審議委員會在處理,但是基於總統的考量……行政院會,經濟部會送一個版本,審議委員會只是同意或不同意而已,到底9月份要不要講?因為院長,這個一講,央行可能又要升息,因為通膨會起來,央行都好緊張,所以這影響通膨,權貴很嚴重,你的薪資今年漲3、4%,全部人民實施薪資全部都被吃掉了,所以實施薪資總薪資是倒退的。"},{"start":1837.27,"end":1841.312,"text":"Yes or no for you."},{"start":1864.429,"end":1885.827,"text":"好,謝謝我們"},{"start":1888.917,"end":1893.143,"text":"時間大了,後續再請部長跟這個李委員做補充。我們謝謝李委員的質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154072","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154072","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a6387c88ca2710c2384a337f76c37b5ea5a2d5eaba877ceb8447e5504a5f230c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:30:45 - 11:02:19","影片長度":"00:31:34","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T10:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T11:02:19+08:00","duration":1894,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（10時31分）謝謝主席，請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員世堅：卓院長早安。卓院長，你在施政報告的時候提到，你的施政希望能夠達成朝野和解共生、兩岸和平共存，與民族夥伴們能夠合作共贏。這個目標、方向都非常正確、非常的大氣，所以在質詢一開始，我先送你一個小禮物，我認為這三點方向、目標，你應該盡全力去達成、去實現，要說到做到。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["王委員世堅：海納百川，在我們國內朝野和解共生，跟對岸我們和平共榮，跟所有民族夥伴我們合作共贏，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，一定努力。非常感謝委員的鼓勵，這就是我們共同努力的目標跟方向，我們一定朝這個方向做最大的努力，也希望大家一起合作。"],["王委員世堅：好，院長，再來我就針對當前我們國家最重要的幾大項目，我認為這是當務之急，我列了十大項目，我希望來就教於你，第一點，內閣從國發會主委劉鏡清，到經濟部長郭智輝，甚至到差點組閣的民間讀書會這位童先生，他們幾乎成為核電自走砲，他們，尤其是郭部長，上任前、上任後一再提倡乾淨的核，其實我們民主社會，大家有不同的看法、不同的聲音，他有不同方向思考，這都是正確的，但是他不能說了乾淨的核以後，講了一大堆以後，拍拍屁股說這是他個人的立場、個人的意見。院長，你要交代部長、交代內閣……"],["卓院長榮泰：郭部長講的是乾淨的能源。"],["王委員世堅：對，他講的就是乾淨的核電，就是這個意思嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：能源、能源。"],["王委員世堅：我認為不同的方向思考可以，但是絕對不能說這是他個人的立場，進到內閣就沒有閣員的個人立場，閣員所有發表的政策說明、談話都是內閣的立場、政府的立場，所以能不能約束他不要再做核能的自走砲了？我要問院長的是，當我們臺灣面對這麼好的機會，AI大爆發，黃仁勳先生也到臺灣幫我們組了AI國家隊，所以此時此刻我們很明顯的面對未來這幾年，很快的可能我們用電量要大幅增加，目前我們電絕對是夠的，但是未來是不是夠？所以我想問卓院長，你們內閣的策略地圖是什麼？我們面對AI的大爆發，我們國家的需要如果有必要把核三廠延役的話，是不是應該經過社會討論，而不再是寡頭政治來決定？應該透過社會討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：我分三點簡短跟委員報告：第一個，我們邀請部會首長到內閣裡面來，就是希望他用產業、企業的管理效率來管理政府，這一點我們還是繼續借用他們的長才。第二點，對於核能的問題，我們現在很清楚且一致認為，必須對於核廢可以處理、核安得到保證、社會有共識，才值得往下談任何的事情，我想部長也是非常清楚這個問題。"],["王委員世堅：先前他們在談的，我舉個例，不是郭部長說的啦！是另外這一位先生說的，他說要引進芬蘭OL3的核電廠，把它講的跟神蹟一樣，他竟然說：那我們把核四廠剷平，上面就放OL3芬蘭的核電廠。卓主席、卓院長，如果民間朋友們聽到，會覺得這是荒唐無稽也沒有知識的言論，核四廠就位處於地震斷層，把核四廠挖掉，上面再另外加一個OL3任何的核電廠，都是錯誤的！他連一個最基本的理解都沒有，所以我希望我們的內閣不要再成為自走砲了，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望我們能夠站在國家的需要和臺灣的條件底下，對於新的知識，我們開放……"],["王委員世堅：要經過充分的社會開放。"],["卓院長榮泰：開放來接受新的知識。"],["王委員世堅：部長，你請回。我現在要談的、要經過社會討論的，比方說勞動部長，他上任第一天就講，未來四年勞保就是每年撥補。院長，由國家來撥補勞保本來就是正確的，國家要付最終的責任，這是應當。但是你如果一開頭就只講，未來四年就是撥補，那我們勞保的改革怎麼辦？我們有千萬個勞保戶，大家引頸企盼勞保能夠做一個適度的改革，能夠讓勞保永續，讓大家都領得到，所以我認為不應該再這樣子，如果只撥補而不談下去做改革的話，我認為這兩個字送你──「鴕鳥」，是不是？部長，你既然上來了，「鴕鳥」這兩個字你要想清楚，要社會討論。至於勞保怎麼改革？比方說要多繳少領，我覺得這絕對不可行，而政府撥補，這當然。未來只有兩條路，一條就是延後退休，但是這個要經過社會討論，因為現在已經延到65歲，後續還能夠延幾年？最重要的、我個人的建議是，我們應該趕快、加緊課徵富人稅，加緊課徵富人稅才能夠達到社會的公平性，把課徵富人稅的收入挹注到勞保，如果要勞保的朋友們未來多繳少領，我覺得這基本上都是不公平的，社會也不會接受，所以對於勞保要延長、延退，是不是要趕快開啟社會討論，廣納社會大眾對勞保改革的意見？院長，這能不能做到？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，何部長對於勞保基金水位的高低，一直嚴密地在瞭解跟掌控中，他也認為撥補應該只是很多改革當中政府必須扮演的一個角色，所以政府會做到這一點，保證……"],["王委員世堅：撥補本來就該做的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，是很多改革當中的一環，會扮演這個角色。"],["王委員世堅：但部長你這麼說，等於大家都放棄所有對勞保改革的想像跟期待嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有，這是其中一環而已。"],["王委員世堅：如果只要撥補的話，不需要你來當部長，不是嗎？AI就可以了，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：讓部長說明一下好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，容許讓我說明。撥補只是改革方案之一，因為我們進行了這四年撥補的改革，在過去蔡政府執政四年來，我們的水位已經到達創新高的地步，目前6月份的水位已經要破兆了，所以現在勞保水位是非常安全的。委員，您剛才講到多繳少領不可行，對不對？可是現在社會上所有的討論都是這種改革，這個我們不能同意，我是要強調這一點，所以您不要誤會，我不是講只有撥補這個改革。"],["王委員世堅：我請你把話說齊全啦！你剛剛這個說明有說跟沒說一樣！好，謝謝你，我時間有限，你請回。","院長，現在房價高漲到這個地步，我認為始作俑者，就是我們對銀行、金控公司授信、放款的管理，以及利率的調整其實是不對的，長年以來，我們的銀行體系習慣性地把大筆資金用極低廉的利息借給一些不肖建商，讓這些建商藉由低利率吸取龐大的社會資金，然後去養地、買地、圈地，所以我們的後輩們、年輕朋友們，他們的薪資所得永遠追不上房價。我認為來自於社會大眾的銀行資金，應該要善加管理，對於房貸族、一般升斗小民、青年朋友們買房的利率應該壓低，補貼他們，這都是正確的，但對於建商，尤其是不肖建商，要嚴格控管他們的授信、放款，在這個部分，莊部長，你在任命了九大公營行庫的董事長、總經理後，其實我看你都在專心管國產、管稅收，管你的十字架！這是好喔！但是我覺得你對銀行利率的控管、對九大公營行庫的管理嚴重不足，這我就不跟你多提了。","金管會主委，你新上任，我知道你學富五車，但你的專業在保險，每次我跟你談到銀行利率控管的時候，我覺得你們的意思大概就是共推到後面的中央銀行。","卓院長，我認為在對銀行利率這一部分，中央銀行確實有盡到他們的職責，我們這位總裁確實有他金融的專業，最近這一波、第六波對房市融資的控管，他確實有盡了努力，但我覺得除了利率的調高以外，還要記住對於一般購屋的受薪階級、青年朋友們，要壓低利率補貼他們，但是對於惡劣的建商，尤其我現在要提到的，在融資、授信部分，銀行本來有一套ESG風險管理……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["王委員世堅：這一家公司的ESG怎麼樣、對環境的影響、公司治理等等，但ESG有風險的，通通是貸款最高的這幾家建商，比方說在臺北大大有名、全國有名的興富發、基泰，興富發一年到頭在臺灣由南到北的工地都有它的工安事故，都造成嚴重的傷亡，結果它的貸款在十大惡劣建商裡面是第一名，十大惡劣建商就是我現在表列的這一張，這十大惡劣建商，它們的融資、它們的負債已經高達九成，結果我們三十八家銀行，尤其我覺得最無法接受的，就是我們九大公營行庫借給這十大惡劣建商，低利息借它，利率不到2%，都高達千億以上！院長，針對這個部分，我希望你能夠管一管，你就責成新任金管會主委，讓他趕快進入狀況、趕快管理。部長，我希望你在任命九大公營行庫董事長、總經理的時候，能夠更謹慎，而且既然任命了，事後要對他們做追蹤管理，可不可以？","既然你們上來了，我同時再提另外一個危害我們臺灣目前社會的就是這些惡質的租賃公司，從中租迪和、和潤到裕融，這三家租賃公司已經占了整個租賃市場超過90%，這三家公司的惡劣，我姑且稱這三家叫做「薯條三兄弟」啦！薯條三兄弟左手從我們的銀行借了5,000億，低利率，只有1.7%，右手貸放給需要的社會大眾，高利貸18%，然後我們銀行眼睜睜地看著薯條三兄弟未來的還款來源是來自於吸收升斗小民的血汗錢，吸收高利貸做它們的還款來源，天啊！我們竟然坐視這樣的罪惡在發生。然後薯條三兄弟他們還要年輕人的父母親作保，還要討債公司下去追討，最壞的情況，青年朋友們借了錢，他的工作餘命還有30年，千刀萬里追來對待我們的未來新世代，這是何等的錯誤跟荒唐！所以院長，我希望你責成金管會主委、財政部長不要再助紂為虐，而且我們應該令行政院趕快送來融資租賃公司管理法的版本，我們立這一部法，然後把對於薯條三兄弟跟這些融資租賃公司的管理收回由金管會來管，院長，我這麼說你同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：任何的公司、機構都應該依法來執行它的業務，關於委員所說的這個部分，應該受到公司法跟其它法規的規範，但是要立一個專法，這是委員的期待啦！另外就是我們對消費者的保護要加強，不要讓消費者誤信不實的廣告或是不實的合約，我們不希望因此造成重大的社會問題，所以這兩個單位都應該要強力的去瞭解內容並加強管理。"],["王委員世堅：對消費者的保護來不及了，你說到公司法的管理，現在金管會跟財政部就是一推六二五，就是推給公司法。院長，你知道嗎？如果對薯條三兄弟只用公司法來管理，其實是經濟部管，我們全國有一百四十萬家公司，經濟部用公司法管一百四十萬家，薯條三兄弟只占一百四十萬分之三，你認為這樣的管轄夠嗎？我認為嚴重不足，所以我希望專業的就歸專業管，該金融的就歸金管會，有一部分事務由放款端來處理，九大公營行庫它放最多，九大公營行庫這十年來借了5,000億給這薯條三兄弟，助紂為虐。好了，各位部長請回，我時間有限。","主席抱歉！我休息3秒鐘，喝一下水。","院長，投資教育就是投資未來，臺北科技大學跟中華民國同年，我們臺北可以不缺一棟商場、一棟百貨公司，不缺高級辦公大樓、不缺觀光飯店，但是我們需要一所百年樹人的好大學，就像是國立臺北科技大學，他們這六十年來所受到的委屈，本來是13公頃的校地，臺北工專時代有4,000位學生，現在已經進步發展到1萬3,000位學生，但是擠在9公頃的校地，為什麼消失4公頃？因為它配合臺北市這幾十年來的發展，開闢了新生南路、市民大道、建國南路、忠孝東路等等，所以1萬3,000位優秀的北科大師生就擠在9公頃的校地裡面。三年前，蔡總統已經交代辦理建國啤酒廠的土地，建國啤酒廠要升格改為商業區，回饋出來的四成土地就交由國立臺北科技大學無償使用，這個案子先前已經進行得如火如荼，但因為新內閣上任突然戛然而止，我希望卓院長能夠交代內政部跟教育部針對北科大現在的校地需求，趕快進一步把這個斷點接上，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：據我所知道，行政院跟臺北市政府為了這件事情曾經有過多次協商，行政院也做了一些核定，這個核定的精神會往一個比較開發性，而且滿足學校的條件來走，但是我們還要詳細瞭解這個內容，教育部長應該瞭解這個情形，或者是現在啤酒廠的用地單位是台酒，財政部也應該有它的說明。"],["王委員世堅：財政部，台酒還是一樣抗拒嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，在建國啤酒廠裡面，第一個，它有所謂的歷史建築、古蹟，這部分是一定要保存跟維護的。另外，其他土地的運用，目前來說，行政院跟臺北市政府還有北科大都有協商，目前已經在辦理有關都市計畫變更的一個程序。對於北科大教育所需要的……"],["王委員世堅：對歷史建物的維護，北科大是專業，它有土木工程系、有建築系、有材料工程系、有設計系，他們對於歷史建物的維護、修復是專業啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員世堅：他們自己是113年的學校，裡面的歷史建物一堆，他們維護得很好，我要再次請院長告訴台酒，也就是現在的主事者，當你升格為商業地，必須捐回四成土地給政府，捐回四成是義務，就像繳稅一樣，哪有繳了稅還指定稅金的用途？台酒沒有資格指定這四成的用途，說要推廣啤酒文化、幫台酒另外六成的商業開發助威，沒有那回事！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：請工程會說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，這個都市計畫目前已經進入由中央逕為申請都市計畫變更的階段，上次內政部都市計畫委員會開會的時候有作成一個決議，就是另成立專案小組就相關問題釐清之後再予審議。那是什麼問題呢？就是文資法裡面的規定，凡是都市計畫有變更涉及到文資建築，必須要文資的主管機關，也就是臺北市政府文化局表示意見。"],["王委員世堅：我謝謝你的回答，因為這些答復我都知道了。院長，我最後提醒大家，不要被假的文資人士、假的文資團體所欺騙，學校才是保存歷史建物最好、最有資格、最有公信力的單位，就把這個校地無償撥用給學校來使用，投資教育就是投資未來，各位請回。","同時我要跟大家說，也就是說波波牙醫的問題啦！對於我們未來的世代，我們要維護公平的教育權，現在有這些波波牙醫海歸回來，占據了我們牙醫的名額，我認為歸國的牙醫OK，名額應該要限制在實習名額的十分之一，不應該再讓它擴大，那麼受教權、教育權是我們國家之所以穩定進步的原因，受好的教育，才讓年輕的一代能夠藉由支持教育，創造自己的人生，改變他們家庭的命運，所以我們一定要保持公平的教育權，尤其現在海歸的訓練，國外牙醫的訓練沒有像我們國內這麼嚴謹，所以海歸如果貿然直接讓他實習，升格為牙醫的話，對我們牙醫的醫療品質會是很大的傷害，所以院長，我希望你聽進去，這個部分能夠落實好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，委員。剛剛北科大的問題，跟委員報告，我們一定儘速讓流程走下去、走完，讓它產生最後的結果出來，往這個方向去走。","那波波牙醫這件事情……"],["王委員世堅：部長，謝謝你啦！我時間有限，因為我再來要提社子島開發。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["王委員世堅：院長，社子島，我相信你們去過都曉得，社子島受了75年的委屈，如果你晚上8點之後到社子島一看，像個鬼島一樣，不但燈光昏暗，連個基本的衛生下水道都沒有，部長你也在，社子島你知道，不要說醫院，連個診所都沒有，這樣非人的生活，我認為應該立刻開發社子島。現在坊間有一個聲音說政府開發社子島是圖利社子島民……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對不是、絕對不是。"],["王委員世堅：院長，政府這70年來開發了上千條、上萬條的道路，開發了上萬個社區，圖利了幾百萬的臺灣人民，這都對的，為什麼過去開發圖利全臺灣幾百萬人民都可以，現在來開發社子島、圖利社子島居民就不可以？很奇怪！社子島幫臺北市擋了70年的洪水，70年來它被當作洩洪區、滯洪區，它吸收了這些洪水，讓臺北市發展，現在輪也應該輪到社子島了吧！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員一樣的想法，社子島長年是臺北市易淹水的地區，二十多年前裝置了非常多抽水站，才把它的淹水狀況稍微紓解，現在應該是我們回頭去回饋、照顧社子島居民的時刻了，所以整體的開發應該是要儘速的協調去完成。"],["王委員世堅：現在這個生態社子島開發是低密度，它不但能夠還社子島民眾一個公道，同時也能夠開發周遭的社子地區、後港地區、葫蘆島地區，這些同時都可以得到相對應民間集中資源來開發，所以這是正面的，我希望我們能夠正面來看待，現在就應該是還社子島公道的時刻，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：也希望臺北市政府能夠加速跟居民來做協調，把所有的條件談清楚。"],["王委員世堅：臺北市政府，別的不敢講啦！對社子島的開發，歷任市長他們真的很用心啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["王委員世堅：案子已經送來了，我希望內政部劉部長，你們能夠謹慎地處理，趕快做一個時間表出來，趕快回應社子島的需求，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好，現在我們的……"],["王委員世堅：因為時間有限。院長，我簡單的把臺鐵、高鐵比一比，臺鐵全線1,065公里，高鐵只有348公里。但是光是落石警告系統，臺鐵只有26處，人家高鐵高達84處，它只有350公里不到，竟然三倍的落石警告系統，而且光是災難防救這樣子的規劃，它們一年辦了98場，臺鐵只辦11場，所以難怪臺鐵一年事故傷亡人數32位，高鐵零事故、零傷亡，其他的營運更不用講；臺鐵營收只有334億，高鐵竟然高達將近500億，有498億；員工人數更扯！臺鐵1萬5,900人，高鐵只需要4,700人，這樣的營收差距，難怪臺鐵一直賠錢，42年來，臺鐵已經負債4,000億。這兩年臺鐵已經公司化了，大家都以為臺鐵的問題就迎刃而解、解決了，錯！公司化只是他們進步改革的第一步而已，所以院長，這改革進步的開始，我希望你能夠督促它趕快完成，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，公司化就是希望它從人事的負擔、財務的規劃、安全的提升以及整個服務的品質，能夠做全面的規劃，我們希望臺鐵能夠盡到這個責任。"],["王委員世堅：好。有關身心障礙者，我希望我們能夠落實聯合國要求的障礙者權利公約裡面的自立生活，也就是說，現在身心障礙者受教的部分是跟教育部相關，他們使用到的交通工具是跟交通部相關，他們要去就業是跟勞動部相關，他們的長照是衛福部來管理，我覺得分散這麼多，對障礙者本身就是一種凌虐，我希望行政院能夠下令成立統一窗口，來服務所有的身障者，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：對於所有的弱勢團體跟需要照顧的人，我們都會加強。"],["王委員世堅：統一窗口，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有……"],["王委員世堅：部長，統一窗口，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，我們一定落實身心障礙的公約……"],["主席：時間到。"],["邱部長泰源：第二個，我們協調各縣市在社區就生活教育、就學各方面都能夠順暢；第三個，在未來5年會投資480億來……"],["王委員世堅：針對長照、就業、就學、交通，行政院來設統一窗口，不要讓身障者疲於奔命，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽的是成功高中的同學，我們在此表達對他們的歡迎。","下一位邀請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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希望來就教於你就是說第一點內閣從國發會主委劉靜清到經濟部長郭志輝"},{"start":194.736,"end":218.391,"text":"甚至到差點阻隔的民間讀書會這位童先生他們幾乎成為核電自走炮他們尤其是國部長上任前上任後一再的提倡乾淨的核"},{"start":220.188,"end":243.515,"text":"其實我們民主社會大家不同的看法不同的聲音他有不同方向思考這都正確的但是他不能說了乾淨的以後講了一大堆以後拍拍屁股說這是他個人的立場個人的意見院長你要交代部長講的是乾淨的能源"},{"start":248.988,"end":276.489,"text":"他講的就是乾淨的核電嗎?就是這個意思嗎?那我認為我認為不同的方向思考可以但是絕對不能說這是他個人的立場進到內閣就沒有個人的個人立場個人所有發表的政策說明談話都是內閣的立場政府的立場所以能不能約束他不要再做核能"},{"start":278.024,"end":301.049,"text":"自走炮啦那我要問院長的就是說所以當我們臺灣面對這麼好的機會AI大爆發黃仁勛先生也到我們臺灣幫我們組了AI國家隊所以此時此刻我們很明顯的面對未來這幾年"},{"start":303.544,"end":326.589,"text":"很快的可能我們用電量要大幅增加目前我們電絕對是夠但是未來是不是夠所以我想問左院長就是說你們內閣你們的策略地圖是什麼策略地圖是什麼如果我們面對AI的大爆發我們國家的需要"},{"start":327.679,"end":353.171,"text":"如果有必要要把河山廠研議的話是不是應該經過社會討論而不再是寡頭政治來決定應該透過社會討論我分三點簡短跟委員報告第一個我們邀請部會首長到內閣裡面來我們希望他把產業企業的管理的效率來管理政府那這一點我們還是繼續借用他們的長財"},{"start":354.67,"end":369.907,"text":"第二點對於核能的問題我們現在很清楚的一致的認為是我們必須對於這個核廢可以處理、核安得到保證、社會有共識才值得往下談任何的事情。我想部長也是非常清楚這個問題。"},{"start":370.982,"end":397.619,"text":"先前他們在談的我幾個例不是郭部長說的啦另外這位先生說的他說要引進芬蘭OL3的核電廠把他講的跟神機一樣啦他竟然說啊說啊那我們把核市場產品上面就放OL3芬蘭的核電廠欸 卓主席 卓院長"},{"start":398.735,"end":425.436,"text":"如果這在民間朋友們聽到覺得這是荒唐無稽也沒有知識核市場就位處於地震斷層把核市場挖掉上面再另外加一個任何OL3任何的核電廠都是錯誤的他連一個最基本的理解都沒有所以我希望我們的內閣不要再成為自走胖"},{"start":426.175,"end":454.254,"text":"好不好我希望我們能夠站在國家需要跟台灣的條件底下要經過我們對於新的知識我們開放來要經過充分的社會討論開放來接受新的知識那個部長你請問比方說我現在要談的要經過社會討論的就是比方說勞動部長他上任第一天他就講啊他說未來四年啊這個勞保我們就是每年撥補"},{"start":458.104,"end":461.345,"text":"我們以警氣判能夠做一個勞保一個適度的改革能夠讓勞保永續讓大家都領得到"},{"start":487.805,"end":503.123,"text":"所以我認為不應該再這樣子如果只撥補而不談下去做改革的話我認為這兩個字送你鴕鳥是不是部長你既然上來鴕鳥兩個字你想清楚社會討論"},{"start":504.605,"end":528.323,"text":"那至於勞保怎麼改革比方說要多繳少領我覺得這絕對不可行那政府撥補這當然那未來只有兩條路一條就是說延後退休但是這個要經過社會討論因為現在已經延到65歲後續還能夠延幾年最重要的我個人的建議"},{"start":529.281,"end":555.377,"text":"我認為我們應該趕快加緊課徵富人稅。加緊課徵富人稅。加緊課徵富人稅才能夠達到社會的公平性。把課徵富人稅的收入預注到勞保。如果要勞保的朋友們未來多繳少領。我覺得這基本上都是不公平的。社會也不會接受的。所以對於"},{"start":556.738,"end":584.939,"text":"要勞保延長、延退是不是要趕快開啟社會討論廣納社會大眾對勞保改革他們的意見所以院長這能不能做到跟委員報告何部長對於勞保基金水位的高低一直嚴密的在了解跟掌控中那他也認為說撥補應該只是一個很多改革當中政府必須扮演的角色所以政府會做到這一點"},{"start":585.76,"end":587.241,"text":"請部長說明一下嗎委員 呃 容許讓我說明一下喔"},{"start":615.56,"end":636.164,"text":"波普只是改革方案之一可是我們現在因為我們進行的這4年的波普的改革在過去蔡政府執政4年來那我們的水位現在已經到達創新高的地步目前6月份的水位已經要破罩了現在的勞保水位是非常安全的"},{"start":636.664,"end":652.908,"text":"那委員我您剛才講到少領多角少領不可行對不對可是現在社會上所有的討論都是要這種改革這個是我們不能同意的我是要強調這一點所以您不要誤會我不是講請你把話說清楚你剛剛這個說明有說跟沒說一樣好謝謝你我時間有限你請回還有院長"},{"start":659.878,"end":677.735,"text":"我們這個現在房價高漲到這個地步我認為始作俑者跟我們對銀行、金融公司他們授信、放款的管理跟對利率這個調整其實是不對的"},{"start":678.857,"end":702.776,"text":"我們長年以來我們的銀行體系他們習慣性的把大筆資金用極低廉的利息借給一些不孝的建商讓這些建商藉由低利率吸取那麼龐大的社會資金他們去養地買地圈地所以"},{"start":703.806,"end":724.143,"text":"我們的後輩們年輕朋友們他們永遠心之所得永遠追不上房價我認為來自於社會大眾的銀行資金們應該要善加管理我們應該對於房貸族一般深斗小民青年朋友們"},{"start":725.862,"end":727.283,"text":"在這一個部分,其實這個莊部長"},{"start":747.355,"end":775.958,"text":"你在任命了九大公營行庫的董事長總經理之後其實啊我看你都在專心管國產管稅收啦管你的實質價啦這是好喔但是我覺得你對銀行利率的擴廣對九大公營行庫他們的管理我覺得嚴重不足所以我就不跟你多提啦那金管會主委"},{"start":777.421,"end":796.573,"text":"你新上任我知道你學富5G但你的專業債保險每次我跟你談到這個銀行利率控管的時候我覺得你們大概的意思就是說都共推到後面的中央銀行那左院長我是認為在對銀行的利率"},{"start":797.964,"end":814.853,"text":"這一部分,莊營郎確實有盡到他們的職責啦。我們這位總裁確實有他金融的專業。最近這一波第六波的對房市這個融資的控管,他確實有盡了努力。但我覺得除了"},{"start":815.653,"end":844.525,"text":"對於利率的調高以外要記住對於一般我們購屋的壽星階級青年朋友們要壓低利率補貼他們但是對於惡劣的建商尤其我現在提到我們在這個融資壽星銀行本來有一套ESG風險管理對這一家建築這家公司他們的ESG怎麼樣他們對環境影響對公司治理"},{"start":846.338,"end":870.415,"text":"ESG有風險的通通是貸款最高的這幾家建商。比方說在台北大大有名的全國有名的新復發啦、基泰啦。欸!新復發一年到頭從我們台灣由南到北的工地都有它的公安事故,都造成嚴重的傷亡。"},{"start":871.702,"end":894.916,"text":"結果他的代管他在十大惡劣建商裡面他是第一名十大惡劣建商我現在表列的這一張這十大惡劣建商他們的融資他們的負債已經高達九成結果我們"},{"start":896.457,"end":913.118,"text":"三十八家銀行尤其我最覺得無法接受的就是我們九大公銀行庫借這十大二列建商低利息借他不到兩趴吼都高達千億以上"},{"start":914.201,"end":938.041,"text":"所以院長我希望這個部分你能夠管一管你就責成我們的新任經管會主委讓他趕快進入管理那部長我希望你在任命九大公營行戶董事長總經理的時候能夠更謹慎而且既然任命了事後要對他們做追蹤管理可不可以"},{"start":939.102,"end":961.691,"text":"好既然你們上來了我同時再提另外一個危害我們台灣目前社會的就是這些二值的租賃公司院長從這個中租抵合到合論到育融這三家租賃公司已經佔了整個租賃市場超過90%"},{"start":964.651,"end":985.287,"text":"這三家公司的二列我姑且稱這三家叫做數條三兄弟啦數條三兄弟左手從我們的銀行借了五千億低利率喔1.7%右手帶放給我們需要的社會大眾高利貸18%"},{"start":988.1,"end":1014.696,"text":"然後我們銀行眼睜睜的看著數條山兄弟未來的還款來源來自於吸收我們生斗小民的血案錢吸收高利貸做他們還款來源天啊我們竟然做事這樣的罪惡在發生然後數條山兄弟他們還要年輕人父母親做寶還要"},{"start":1018.566,"end":1040.822,"text":"討債公司下去追討最壞的情況青年朋友們借了他工作餘命還有30年千刀萬里追對待我們的未來新世代這是何等的錯誤跟荒唐所以院長我希望你責成軍管會主委財政部長"},{"start":1042.045,"end":1067.82,"text":"不要再助纣為虐而且我們應該趕快立行政會趕快送來這個版本就是說融資租賃公司管理法我們立這一部法然後把對於鼠條山兄弟跟這些融資租賃公司的管理收回由經管會來管院長我這麼說你同不同意"},{"start":1068.817,"end":1084.359,"text":"任何的公司、機構都應該依法來執行它的業務。所以在你說的這個委員說的這個部分應該受到公司法跟其他的法規有規範但是立一個專法這是委員的期待另外就是我們對消費者的保護要加強"},{"start":1085.02,"end":1109.991,"text":"不要讓消費者誤信到不實的那個廣告或是不實的這個合約裡面去。我們不希望因此造成重大的社會問題。所以這兩個單位都應該要強力的去了解內容跟加強管理。對消費者的保護齁,不會負障啦。然後你說公司法管理,現在的金管會跟財政部就是一推四五六,就是推給說這個公司法。"},{"start":1110.791,"end":1136.683,"text":"院長你知道嗎?如果對薯條三兄弟只用公司法來管理是經濟部管我們全國有140萬家公司經濟部用公司法管140萬家薯條三兄弟只在140萬分之三你認為這樣的管轄夠嗎?我認為嚴重不足所以我希望專業的就歸專業管"},{"start":1138.224,"end":1164.075,"text":"該金融的就歸金管會那麼有一部分事務由放款端九大公營行戶他放最多九大公營行戶這十年來借了五千億給這數條三兄弟助紂為虐好啦各位部長請回來我時間有限那個主席抱歉我休息三秒鐘喝一下水"},{"start":1174.69,"end":1198.405,"text":"要多3秒嗎?我多喝了3秒算進去沒關係。投資教育就是投資未來。臺北科技大學跟中華民國同年,我們臺北我們可以不缺"},{"start":1199.758,"end":1223.678,"text":"一棟商場一棟百貨公司不缺高級辦公大樓不缺觀光飯店但是我們需要一所百年樹人的好大學就像是國立臺北科技大學他們受到的委屈這60年來他們本來13公頃的校地臺北工專時代4000位學生"},{"start":1224.338,"end":1242.053,"text":"他們現在已經進步發展到一萬三千位學生但是擠在9公頃的校地為什麼消失了4公頃因為他配合了臺北市這幾十年來的發展開闢了新生南路市民大道建國南路宗教登錄等等"},{"start":1242.834,"end":1269.734,"text":"所以一萬三千位優秀的北科大的師生就擠在那九公頃的校地裡面這三年前蔡總統已經有交代辦理要把建國啤酒廠的土地建國啤酒廠要升格改為商業區回饋出來的四層土地就交由國立台北科技大學無償來使用但是這個案子先前進"},{"start":1271.255,"end":1290.787,"text":"已經進行得如我如圖,那因為新內閣上任,突然嘎然而止,我希望卓院長你能夠交代內政部跟教育部,他們針對北科大現在校地的需求,能夠趕快進一步把這個段點接上,好不好?"},{"start":1291.892,"end":1319.909,"text":"所以我知道行政院跟台北市政府這件事情曾經有過多次的協商那行政院也做了一些核定那這個核定的精神是會往一個比較開發性而且滿足學校的條件來走但是我們還要詳細了解這個內容教育部長應該了解這個情形或者是現在這個啤酒廠那個用地單位是台酒在財政部也應該有他的說明"},{"start":1321.129,"end":1343.783,"text":"那個財政部台酒還是一樣抗拒嗎?跟委員報告,我想建國啤酒廠裡面第一個它有所謂的歷史建築古蹟那這個部分是一定要保存跟維護的那另外其他的土地的運用呢目前來說也都有行政院以及跟台北市政府還有北科大都有協商那目前已經在辦理有關都市計畫變更的一個程序"},{"start":1344.443,"end":1346.124,"text":"那對於北科大教育所需要的事,對,這個比較重要。"},{"start":1369.273,"end":1387.664,"text":"請你告訴台九現在的主事者當你升格為商業地你必須捐回市城土地給政府這個捐回的市城是義務就像繳稅一樣哪有說繳了稅還指定稅金的用途"},{"start":1388.905,"end":1389.566,"text":"請工程會說明"},{"start":1405.625,"end":1428.176,"text":"這個都市計劃目前已經進入到由中央進委申請都市計劃變更的階段。那麼在上次的內政部都市計劃委員會開會的時候,他做成一個決議,就是會令成立專案小組就相關問題來釐清之後再於審議。那什麼問題呢?就是文資法裡面的規定,就是凡是都市計劃有變更,"},{"start":1437.181,"end":1446.067,"text":"我謝謝你的回答因為這些大夫我都知道了我最後院長我提醒大家不要被假的文資人士假的文資團體所欺騙"},{"start":1448.068,"end":1465.04,"text":"學校才是保存歷史建物最好、最有資格、最有公信力的單位。就把這個校地無償撥用給學校來使用。投資教育就是投資未來。各位請回。同時我要跟大家說,同時也就是說撥撥牙醫的問題啦。"},{"start":1467.742,"end":1496.685,"text":"我們對於我們未來的世代我們要維護公平的教育權現在有這些波波牙醫就海歸回來那就佔據了我們牙醫的名額我認為應該歸國的牙醫OK我們名額限制在要實習名額的十分之一不應該再讓它擴大那麼受教權教育權是我們國家之所以穩定進步的原因"},{"start":1497.726,"end":1512.888,"text":"受好的教育才讓年輕的一代他能夠藉由支持教育創造自己的人生改變他們家庭的命運所以我們一定要保持這個公平的教育權"},{"start":1513.829,"end":1517.973,"text":"所以院長我希望你聽進去這個部分能夠落實好不好?"},{"start":1536.69,"end":1563.837,"text":"好的委員剛剛那個北科大的問題我們跟委員報告我們一定盡速讓流程走下去走完讓他產生一個最後的結果出來往這個方向去走那波波牙醫這件事情那個部長謝謝你啦我時間有限因為我再來要提社子島開發那個院長社子島我相信你們去過都曉得社子島受了75年的委屈如果你晚上8點之後到社子島一看像個鬼島一樣"},{"start":1565.779,"end":1587.841,"text":"喔!這個不但燈光灰暗,他連一個基本的衛生下水道都沒有。部長你也在,社址島你知道,不要說醫院,連一個診所都沒有。這樣非人的生活,我認為應該立刻開發社址島。現在坊間有一個聲音說政府開發社址島是圖利社址島民。"},{"start":1589.202,"end":1592.304,"text":"政府開發這70年來開發了上千條上萬條的道路開發了上萬個社區圖立了幾百萬的臺灣人民這都對的為什麼過去開發"},{"start":1604.733,"end":1604.753,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":1622.116,"end":1625.857,"text":"現在是應該我們回頭去回饋照顧社址島居民的時刻了所以整體的開發應該是"},{"start":1650.965,"end":1678.881,"text":"現在這個生態設置島開發是低密度,它不但能夠還設置島民眾一個公道,同時也能夠開發周遭的設置地區,這個後港地區,葫蘆島地區,這些同時都可以得到相對於民間來集中資源來開發,所以這是正面的,我希望我們能夠正面來看待,"},{"start":1679.601,"end":1704.481,"text":"現在就應該是還社址島公道的一個時刻。也希望臺北市政府能夠加速跟居民來做協調。臺北市政府賠的不敢講啊。對社址島的開發他們真的很用心啊。利潤市長已經按之送來的。我希望內政部這個劉部長你們能夠謹慎的處理趕快做一個time table時間表出來趕快回應社址島的需求好不好。"},{"start":1705.822,"end":1729.274,"text":"因為時間有限,我簡單的把台鐵高鐵比一比。那麼台鐵全線1065公里,高鐵只有348公里。但是光是落實警告系統,台鐵只有26處,人家高鐵高達84處,它只有350公里不到。"},{"start":1730.334,"end":1755.665,"text":"他竟然三倍的落實警告系統而且他光是災難防救這樣子的規劃他們一年辦了98場臺鐵只辦11場所以難怪啊臺鐵一年事故傷亡人數32位耶高鐵零事故零傷亡那其他的營運更不用講營收臺鐵只有334億"},{"start":1758.246,"end":1758.486,"text":"公司化﹖"},{"start":1786.914,"end":1812.291,"text":"只是他們進步改革的第一步而已。所以院長我這改革進步的開始我希望你能夠督促他趕快完成好不好。謝謝公式化就是希望他從人事的負擔財務的規劃安全的提升以及整個服務的品質能夠做全面的規劃。我們希望台鐵能夠盡到這個責任。身心障礙者我希望我們能夠落實聯合國要求的這個障礙者"},{"start":1815.256,"end":1817.497,"text":"我希望我們行政院能夠下令成立統一窗口"},{"start":1843.588,"end":1843.608,"text":"時間到"},{"start":1871.589,"end":1871.609,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154071","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154071","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a9a8cc65442b825f484a337f76c37b5eac497bc7bbd6a037d44714ca2981c11ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"09:48:34 - 10:19:46","影片長度":"00:31:12","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T09:48:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T10:19:46+08:00","duration":1872,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":169,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（9時48分）副院長，首先有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員超明：卓院長好。你的施政報告我確確實實讀了一遍，我相信我比所有的立法委員還努力地讀你的施政報告，這裡面都做了筆記。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：我把你所講的施政報告每一句每一句讀過，裡面你寫到我們要「以行動完成夢想，以創新帶來突破。接任行政院長，本不是人生的規劃，但選擇接受此一職務，我就會全力以赴」，重點在下面這兩句話「未來哪裡有困難，我和行政團隊就到哪裡；哪裡有問題，我們就想辦法解決問題」。所以今天我的第一個主題，苗栗現在在轉型發展，我們需要行政院大力支持，讓苗栗縣迎頭趕上。苗栗縣是在努力奔跑，不是在走路，我們是很煞猛、很打拚的，真的需要你這AI團隊務實協助。等一下我提出來的問題就是苗栗縣的困難、苗栗縣的問題在哪裡，第一個我先這樣子說。卓院長，我是有準備而來的，我要跟你要經費、要跟你說苗栗困難問題的解決，我一定拿出很具體的。","第一個我要跟你探討的就是我們現在的財政收支劃分，我的主題是「苗栗努力創稅　應有公平對待」，所以你在財政收支劃分法裡面應該「增加激勵制度　鼓勵創稅縣市」。110年至112年度稅收比較，這3個縣市是五級財政縣市，苗栗縣從111至112年一共為中央創稅877億，但是這3年期間苗栗縣只分到468億，所以我們多繳給中央409億；嘉義縣才225億，中央補助542億，你們倒貼317億；屏東縣577億，中央補助809億，你們倒貼232億。","我打拚創稅，結果我在統籌分配款、一般性補助款反而變少了，努力的孩子沒有糖吃，創稅愈多，補助還變得愈少，這不合理、不公平。可能明天財政部說，這個從國民黨、民進黨執政以來每一個人都說要改，但都沒有改，因為這改了的話，你們就講茲事體大，但是我創稅能力高，你應該多給我。我們苗栗縣的負債，如果以這樣創稅的比例，你每一年多補助我100億，我馬上就解決、回歸正常的財務情況，這很不公平、這是酷刑、這是在剝削苗栗縣！我希望你這個大有為、要改進的行政院長好好地處理這個問題。這個問題是確實發生的，尤其財政跟主計不要有偏見，我們是打拚的孩子，我們應該得到公平的待遇。院長，怎麼樣？回答一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員……"],["陳委員超明：我只強調激勵制度，激勵我們努力來創稅，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。知道苗栗縣的財政在臺灣各縣市當中一直是比較特殊的，中央政府長年以來也持續做很多補助……"],["陳委員超明：你們有偏見、有歧視啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是事實，中央政府有做很多的補助。"],["陳委員超明：我們現在還負債400億，天天被你們財政控管、天天被你們盯得要死，我打拚卻沒有一點資金怎麼對啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個已經行之多年，但是中央對苗栗的補助從來也不會少過。你看到這個數字，應該很多是在統籌分配稅款裡面各地競爭型的。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，我拜託了好幾次，我希望大家要有良心一點，不要用有色的眼光看苗栗縣，其實我們要發展，我們只有四、五百億，你們一次建設都幾千億，六都裡面，我們看到心很痛，不要只為大都市的選票打拚，我們鄉下囡仔是很奮鬥的，這樣好不好？我希望改進，經費從這邊考慮給苗栗多一點，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我跟你說明一下，我們一般性的補助……"],["陳委員超明：我時間有限。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員超明：說明我聽了太多次，我直接找院長，不然你不敢決定，不是我在說，摸了太久都一清二楚，好不好？","院長，你跟我講，多考慮一下都好，不然聽你的財政部長、主計長……"],["卓院長榮泰：考慮地方自治跟財政補助的程序……"],["陳委員超明：我這個有沒有道理？你講一下就好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會多從這樣的方面來考量。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？多考慮一下嘛！因為你們答了幾十年都一樣的答案，好不好？請回座，我要你們的錢，不敢讓你們站得太久。","第二個問題，我請內政部部長。苗栗縣警察局重建經費，我們需要你支援，苗栗縣警察局蓋到現在，它是屬於臺灣省第二古老的警察局，在中央補助裡面，112年答應給我們14億84萬，因為整個通貨膨脹，113年中央說要補助我們16億9,988萬，我就說17億比較好算，在這裡面，苗栗縣要自籌6.6億。上一任行政院有答應，就是在113年3月吳澤成政委召集的協調會提到「請內政部釐清確認，倘為原核列案件，即應予協助納入前瞻第5期預算匡列，俾利計畫執行之一致性及完整性」。劉部長，拜託一下，我們現在還欠3億，第5期前瞻計畫幫我們匡列在裡面，這樣好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。委員對於爭取苗栗縣警察局可以說不遺餘力，我們原先第一部分的11億本來就匡列，但是後來苗栗縣也提出來，希望苗栗縣警察局的整個大樓再容其他的單位進來，所以才變成你剛才所說的非常正確的一個數字，就是二十三億六千五百多萬，現在中央補助的部分是十六億九千九百，將近十七億。"],["陳委員超明：還缺3億。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有！"],["陳委員超明：第5期計畫！"],["劉部長世芳：現在苗栗縣政府要自籌六億六千五百多萬，我們經過行政院秘書長函復的結果是希望由內政部自行核處，但是我們會覺得苗栗縣政府可不可以先把所有的工程流程都走完，有不夠的部分的話，我們會呈報到行政院，用未來的前瞻計畫再納入考量。也就是說，不要等……"],["陳委員超明：你所謂的工程流程都走完，我已經走完了，他們一再地拜託啊！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有、還沒有。"],["陳委員超明：還沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：還沒有。"],["陳委員超明：好，因為時間有限，你答應我，我會請苗栗縣政府把你講的流程、工程沒有完成告訴我……"],["劉部長世芳：我們會以後續的前瞻計畫再來……"],["陳委員超明：不然大家在猜來猜去，我也不曉得哪裡沒有完成。"],["劉部長世芳：可以先蓋的就先蓋。"],["陳委員超明：這是我的困難、我的問題……"],["劉部長世芳：我們是幫忙……"],["陳委員超明：我今天很慎重地講，我是談地方建設，其他地方沒有講，這個部分如果你說苗栗縣政府的行政還有工務沒有完成，哪幾點沒有完成跟我講，我馬上請他們送過來。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我要跟你講的部分就是，苗栗縣政府……"],["陳委員超明：不然我改天再請教你，今天在這裡講不清楚，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：還有其他機關要進來嘛，所以才增加整個量體，這點你也知道。"],["陳委員超明：院長，你說要解決問題，有困難在哪裡，你一定到，我這個是專案列管的，好不好？你也當過立法委員……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這個已經比原來核定的金額要多，多出來的部分……"],["陳委員超明：比原來核定的多就是通貨膨脹以後整個算過，並不是要多跟你們拿錢啦！這都有一個行政流程，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：通貨膨脹沒有超過50%以上啦！"],["陳委員超明：才幾億而已！當初14億，現在17億，差3億，會「黑」你嗎？不要這樣小看！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有、沒有，差了快6億，6億6。"],["陳委員超明：沒有也不要緊啦！講難聽一點就是這樣嘛！我今天把問題提出來了，還不要講那個道理！"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們來幫忙解決。"],["陳委員超明：你剛剛跟我講行政流程還沒有做好，是哪幾點，給我，好不好？請回座。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我們請苗栗縣政府先加速各項工程流程，如果確定有不足的部分，我們會請行政院納入未來的前瞻計畫……"],["陳委員超明：好，我說你把你的問題給我，我回去轉告他們，這樣我處理起來比較快，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，原來補助11億，後來增加了單位，增加到16億，要請苗栗縣政府把那個增加的流程補足，而且它增加之後，自己在地方自治事項裡面該負擔的……"],["陳委員超明：沒有，它補助款也隨著負擔啦！你們在怕什麼？是不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：負擔6億嘛！"],["陳委員超明：是不是難住你們了？不會啦！好好做，票數一定會增加啦！","好，謝謝。劉部長，拜託啦！我們不是這樣的人，我們是「艱苦囡仔」。","接下來是苗栗醫院的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長好。苗栗是醫療資源比較缺乏的地方，苗栗縣的急重症醫院及腫瘤中心講了好久，111年蘇貞昌院長每個地方去、每個都要做，到現在113年了，放射腫瘤治療中心的工程已經流標14次，急重症醫療大樓擴建工程流標6次，就是因為缺錢，所以一直流標嘛！這件事情可以拜託你嗎？每次選舉的時候大家都說要重視苗栗的醫療資源，這點可以特別拜託嗎？院長，這是苗栗困難問題所在，我希望你真誠的解決，我不是來應付的，大家參與政治都幾十年了，都很瞭解，我是很真心誠意請你們來幫我們解決問題，請你們來幫助我們，怎麼樣？這個能不能趕快？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很注重各地這種醫療水準的完全提升，所以醫療設施、醫療設備，包括中大型醫院能夠在縣市裡面讓它興建，而且充實內容，當然是對國人的健康最有幫助的，但是衛福部也一定是詳實的在規劃，這個苗栗醫院已經進行到相當的程度，請部長來向委員說明。"],["陳委員超明：這個是已經談了很久的問題，新內閣新氣象，新AI的內閣，active、innovation這個很好，趕快來幫我們解決，就是有困難才會跟你說嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：程序進行到哪一個程序，請部長來向委員說明。"],["陳委員超明：一個月之內部長陪著去，但是要帶著解決的方案，不是來虛晃一招，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員長期對苗栗醫療資源的爭取，我們非常感謝，有關於急重症醫療計畫大樓跟放射腫瘤治療擴建工程，其實都是苗栗縣民在醫療資源的增加當中非常重視的兩個地方，那的確也是流標多次，急重症6次、放腫大樓14次……"],["陳委員超明：拜託、拜託。"],["邱部長泰源：所以現在已經召開多次的檢討會議，我們現在調整預算大概調高到27億元，也在修正計畫，把一坪從原來可能20出頭萬，現在已經調到28萬，應該可以來招標出去。"],["陳委員超明：你也當過立法委員，你沒有選舉，我有選舉，我曉得我的困難、我的痛苦在哪個地方，你只要說我要去那邊解決問題就好。"],["邱部長泰源：可以啊！"],["陳委員超明：因為這邊講的內容我們大概都瞭解，好不好？我們要實際、務實來解決問題，這樣好嗎？讓我拜託一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好。我們非常樂意到苗栗，跟地方一起解決問題，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：這個很重要，不然我們都要送到外縣市，被罵得很慘，好不好？特別拜託。","再來，這個問題看起來蠻大，但是對苗栗很切實，我今天為什麼會把這個問題提出來？部長，你可以回去了，這個可能是內政部跟農業部。今天我提出指定苗栗縣為低丘緩坡示範區，打造臺灣的輕井澤，苗栗縣的山坡地大概占全縣的86%。院長，你知道我們苗栗縣的山坡地，現在一甲地3,000坪大概1,500萬，1,500萬要買新竹的房子、要買臺北的房子的話，買不到10坪，這樣有公平嗎？尤其山坡地的開發，你要看每個地方的情況不一樣，苗栗占了86%，現在農民土地價格下跌，我心中永遠不滿意，這個世界很不公平，你注意聽好，我不知道你有沒有務過農，六都的土地，都市計畫的農業區可以經過都市變更，變成自宅區、商業區，一樣的農民、一樣的農地，它可以變更，但這邊卻被受限的死死。你們都市人星期一到星期五燈紅酒綠在拼命賺錢，禮拜六、禮拜天我們的好山好水、綠山青水要給你們欣賞跟享受，所以限制的非常多。","我今天特別從地方的角度提出一個要求，尤其現在務農，在山坡地缺水缺工，你說要種水果、種水稻，你自己就一年要休耕一次了，你來苛求這個地方，那都是很不務實的想法。低丘緩坡可以到日本看一看，打造出來有多漂亮，我們為什麼要受到這樣的限制？所以我覺得一些法令要修改，譬如農地什麼路要蓋在中央，但山坡地、丘陵地不一樣，還有只有種水果、水稻才叫經濟作物，種高級的樹木不是經濟作物嗎？不要被學者這樣……以為他的思想很先進，那是不實際的，私底下我帶你去看，以前開發的山坡地多好、多漂亮。","我在這裡要特別要求的是，讓苗栗變成低丘緩坡的示範區，一個鄉鎮先做一個或是兩個鄉鎮先做一個來打造看看，不要照以往的傳統觀念來綁架農民，山坡地現在能做什麼？種水果。你知道水果長得那麼多了，沒有人去摘，你們都市人瞭解嗎？不瞭解！現在也缺工，要怎麼耕種？你要如何活化？你們說要保障農民，你們卻把農民的財產降低，都市的農地一直在變更，這是什麼世界？他的農地可以變更，我的山坡地、農地，我不能做什麼，哪有這個道理？院長，我希望你下來看一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。人口往都會區集中，產業往都會以及各個專業區集中，這個是一個趨勢，所以賴總統提出了……"],["陳委員超明：所以有錢的越有錢，貧窮的人越窮。"],["卓院長榮泰：提出幸福農業、快樂農民的政策，所以有農村再生條例等等，還有很多次的補貼，我們都有在做這個事情，當然對農民，我認為這是國家之根本，農業是國家的根本。"],["陳委員超明：我說的，跟你講的農村再生條例，我做了這麼久的民意代表，我摸得很清楚，我知道嘛！我這個提出來絕對有用意，絕對是要改變現狀，改變不合理的現狀嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個現狀是不是請部長能夠說明一下？"],["陳委員超明：我不知道你有沒有務過農，不然你來苗栗，我帶你去走走，你就都知道了。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，苗栗地區因為地形特殊，相關的這些坡地農業，我們未來會持續。另外，照你剛才所提到的，在我們的農村再生裡面結合區域治理……"],["陳委員超明：這裡面寫了很多，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：本身就可以達到類似這樣的一個目的。"],["陳委員超明：不是類似這樣目的，裡面確實有以前很多刁難的條件不一樣，你們可以同意我們苗栗訂定自治法規來做示範區，有做過、有摸過，好壞在這裡面就能顯示出來了，可能給農村帶來不同新的風貌。從這裡去到臺北45分鐘、去到臺中15分鐘、去到高雄75分鐘，臺北人、退休的人搬來這裡不是多好嗎？便宜又好、交通又方便。頭腦要改變、要創新嘛！你哪有創新？嘴巴講創新，一點都不創新。我們每天在跑，我們知道地方的痛苦在哪裡，我們要如何去解決？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，是不是你有特定具體的區域或是一個狀況……"],["陳委員超明：可以！"],["卓院長榮泰：讓部長能夠去瞭解，部長看……"],["陳委員超明：最好你去啦！部長他們，我相信這個還不敢什麼亂答應，你來走一趟，你來看我們那邊……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長非常專業……"],["陳委員超明：你就會覺得……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：本來我們就……"],["陳部長駿季：後續我們再安排我們同仁一起去瞭解它的地形跟它的可行性，包括怎麼樣結合農村再生的計畫去處理。"],["陳委員超明：好，這很重要。我跟你講，這個觀念很新，不要一成不變，認為農地就是農地，你來看那些，你到那個地方，你會喜歡它，你說你退休會搬來苗栗，我保證啦！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：苗栗本來就是非常漂亮，好山好水啊！"],["陳委員超明：謝謝。再來，我要討論桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，第一，現在國發會和經濟部，我一直在討論桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，苗栗縣現在已經提出了大概960公頃的一個計畫，裡面包括竹南科第二期、包括頭份的科學園區、包括後龍的科技產業園區，等於是這個地方跟新竹市、新竹縣、新竹科學園區、工研院跟交通大學及清華大學非常近，所以我們要打拼、我們要奮鬥，我們要改變苗栗的命運，我們這個地方已經有科技的基石了，這個大矽谷計畫，報告院長，趕快幫我們核定，讓我們來拼啦！這個是連接北部、連接中部，只缺苗栗這一塊，這一塊連接完成的時候，大概西部走廊的科技廊道就完成了，希望趕快來核定。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個以半導體跟AI串聯起來的，而且能夠建構完整產業生態系的，那麼我們也希望苗栗縣政府能夠繼續把土地盤點出來、能夠增加在竹南或是頭份有適當的土地……"],["陳委員超明：還有後龍。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，能夠讓國科會來進行規劃或是辦理，後續的程序，我們來處理。"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦！我們會送過去。我是特別拜託你，因為部長講過臺灣科技有50年的黃金期，所以我們這個地方開發起來，會改變苗栗的命運、苗栗的未來，我現在不是跟你講假的，我希望這個如果送上來，這幾個計畫你要趕快來核定，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，這個經濟部或是國發會目前都有在進行。"],["陳委員超明：我會請他們到苗栗縣實地考察，你們比較少到苗栗縣，我有去的時候，可以再請你們，苗栗縣真的是一個非常好的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員超明：這幾個園區是完全……新竹科學園區的那一帶都延伸到這邊，有送出去的話，拜託一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員超明：我們的……"],["卓院長榮泰：要不要請經濟部回答一下？"],["陳委員超明：郭部長，你上次有答應，現在在這邊再答應一次。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在土地的問題是還有一些私有地（私人的土地），這些協調完了以後就馬上可以報縣府。"],["陳委員超明：我相信很多都須要協調，我自己很瞭解，地方很期盼這個完成。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員超明：國發會主委送到這兩個地方，這個土地的變更大概是由內政部、國發會和行政院核定的，以後要推動是你們在推動的，好不好？給苗栗縣注入一股加油的力量，給我們一點勝利，不然看到的都是你們臺南、高雄、嘉義，再不然就是到新竹那邊去了，我們這邊是寶地，對你們也友善，不缺水、不缺電，還不會地震，你們要去哪裡選這種地方，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我們會配合經濟部一起……"],["陳委員超明：院長，你帶著微笑，到底好不好？幫我們加油一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好啊！為你們加油。"],["陳委員超明：院長，我講的你是聽不清楚，還是怎樣？要給他們回答，讓大家多認識一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：主委跟部長都會到現場，瞭解狀況以後，我們就照目前進行的程序一直進行，也希望地方縣政府也能夠加強配合。"],["陳委員超明：好，那大矽谷計畫，現在換交通部了，請交通部的李部長，你們請回座。","交通部李部長，苗栗縣的建設以往都被忽略，像台13甲，全臺灣省4線道的省公路最後一段在苗栗，這是在我任內把它完成的。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["陳委員超明：部長，你當過行政院秘書長，我也跟你們接洽過好幾次。"],["李部長孟諺：是。"],["陳委員超明：報告院長，這個大矽谷計畫對苗栗的發展很重要，我今天有幾點要特別提出來，請幫我們加強注重。我也感謝上一次你們核定了台61線，就是西濱公路本來是從新竹到香山，我爭取到最後從香山連接到後龍一共180億，謝謝李部長打電話來，我特別感謝你，這一條很重要，我希望能趕快快速地推動；還有苗栗縣的台72線接台61線西濱公路，這一段也核定了40.23億；再來海線的雙軌化，院長，鐵路的雙軌化到苗栗都被留到後面做，那六十幾億，我苦苦地哀求了好幾年，現在才推動這個綜合規劃，我希望這個綜合規劃能趕快儘速地進行，好不好？","這裡面，我們的台72線叫做南橫，苗栗縣現在交通網缺了一個重要的點，就是所有重要道路，譬如國道1號、國道3道都沒有聯絡網，台72線剛好可以做這個聯絡網，你在銅鑼還是頭份那邊做一個聯絡網的道路連接著國道1號，然後現在你有經過國道3號到西濱，但是國道3號卻沒有聯絡網的交通，這一點可以編列進去，因為這個帶動循環，不管你科技的發展、不管你觀光的發展，這幾個交通的匝道把它完成的話，我相信苗栗縣的交通建設就會非常地完整，這個要好好拜託一下。"],["李部長孟諺：跟委員報告，您提到的這幾個有關苗栗的重大交通建設，有的可行性已經核定，現在相關的規劃在進入進一步的階段，這個我們會加速流程，特別是72聯絡61……"],["陳委員超明：對、對、對，這個就是這樣。"],["李部長孟諺：這個我想是很重要，讓快速路網可以銜接，這個部分的可行性也已經核定，我們後面來加速推動……"],["陳委員超明：好。"],["李部長孟諺：可能有一個，也跟委員報告，就是台72連接國一及國三跟既有的交流道都太近，都不足2公里，另外，台72又是沿著後龍溪，所以它會有河川公地的這個問題，這個我們還在想辦法克服……"],["陳委員超明：河川公地比較好解決，私人土地比較難解決，這個不是問題，我瞭解，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：有一個破堤的問題。"],["陳委員超明：好。","再來，因應大矽谷計畫，新竹縣市已經有輕軌計畫，院長，但是我跟你報告，竹南、頭份是很重要的兩個鄉鎮，它們跟新竹市、跟科學園區完全是連接在一起，如果你真的要發展這個科技走廊，一定要把竹南、頭份拉入這個輕軌計畫，它們都在隔壁，是連在一起的，對於未來的交通改善，會有很大的幫助。新竹科學園區有很多我們苗栗人在那裡上班，我想院長及我們部長，這個輕軌計畫，我會請苗栗縣政府提出來，輕軌連接到竹南、頭份，因為這兩個是鄰近的鄉鎮，比鄰在一起的，好不好？這樣可以嗎？突然提這個，你們好像還不怎麼清楚，還是怎麼樣？"],["李部長孟諺：這個部分，我們會再進一步瞭解，不過目前新竹的輕軌因為有縣及市，所以新竹縣市正在整合……"],["陳委員超明：再加一個苗栗縣，你下來的話，我看就會解決了，他們大概也有溝通協調，我大概瞭解，好不好？這一點給我們加強一下，你要曉得，苗栗縣的重大計畫是靠海的地方有科技走廊，山邊的話，有觀光休閒，海邊的人賺錢，給山邊的人去休閒享受，這是一個基本的概念及規劃，希望你全力支持，因為那邊水庫很多，你們以前不缺水，苗栗縣幫忙很多。"],["李部長孟諺：我也要跟委員報告，這次端午連假全國各縣市的旅館住房率，苗栗是名列前茅。"],["陳委員超明：我剩下沒有多少時間，改天再邀你下來。","還有兩個，就是我們海線通霄及銅鑼科學園區，通霄的人口本來是第4名，現在掉到第7名，沒有產業在那邊，所以我主張開一條從銅鑼科學園區到通霄，這叫做通霄產業生命之路，目前這個先跟你要550萬評估費用給我們，讓我們趕快來進行，因為未來的重大建設還是要你們行政院、交通部來支持，好不好？","再來，剩下1分鐘，苑裡車站，我們的副院長，你的家鄉，你要好好照顧，你下來看，這個人家特別交代我碰到你要轉告給你，這個跨站式站房要解決。還有苗栗縣最可憐的鄉鎮，到最近才有7-ELEVEN，以前我成功爭取在高速公路西湖服務區裡面設立南入北出聯外道路，因為那個地形高，現在我們找到一條捷徑，就是北入南出，這個需要9,000萬，我們現在依財政收支劃分法負債那麼高，這個差不多要9,000多萬，院長，我先跟你報告一下，支持我們，以前蘇貞昌院長最支持這個，這個地方要的經費免配合款，他去看的時候覺得這個鄉鎮發展實在受限制，我希望你也幫我解決這個問題，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我們會去看過之後，再來跟委員討論。"],["陳委員超明：好，我覺得你很少下來苗栗，選舉的時候你當秘書長，也沒有下來，還好你沒有下來，我比較輕鬆。"],["卓院長榮泰：有啦！有啦！下次也去拜訪委員。"],["陳委員超明：下次下來，我看……"],["卓院長榮泰：下次一定去拜訪委員。"],["陳委員超明：內政部長（劉部長），苗栗警察局特別拜託我，因為精華區裡我們有一個大的開發計畫，你放心，我們是真正做事的人，那時候警察局詢問你的啦！苗栗警察局，這個特別幫忙一下，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後，繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時19分）","繼續開會（10時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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我就講17億到多少"},{"start":389.746,"end":417.26,"text":"當時裡面苗栗縣要自籌6.6億。您的怎麼樣?上一代你們的行政院裡面有答應。就是說113年3月吳哲成政委召集的話,請內政部履行確認,談為沿河類補治案件及補治前端第五期匡列預算,以便執行的一致性和完整性。那個劉部長。"},{"start":419.116,"end":421.16,"text":"拜託一下,我們現在還欠什麼?第5期前陣子我幫我看能不能這樣好嗎?"},{"start":426.737,"end":426.918,"text":"還缺3億,給我去計劃"},{"start":455.161,"end":478.036,"text":"現在苗栗縣政府要自籌6億6500多萬那現在我們經過行政院秘書長的含富的結果是希望我們由內政部來自行合組但是我們會覺得說苗栗縣政府可不可以先把所有的工程流程都走完有不夠的部分的話我們會呈報到行政院用未來的前瞻計畫再納入考量也就是說賣蛋"},{"start":482.779,"end":486.42,"text":"還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有還沒有"},{"start":512.625,"end":535.414,"text":"我馬上請他們就送過來。是委員,我要跟你講的就沒有人要你管出,還有其他的機關要你跑嗎?所以才增加整個量體,你也知道。院長你說要解決問題,有困難在哪裡你一定到,我這個是專案內管的好不好?這個已經比原來核定的金額要多。原來核定的金額要多就通貨膨脹,通貨膨脹以後整個算過吧,不是要給自己愛情的啦。通貨膨脹沒辦法說十八億好不好?"},{"start":542.177,"end":542.998,"text":"通貨膨脹風潮被我的發言修改。"},{"start":563.029,"end":584.987,"text":"不是,我們請苗栗縣政府先加速各項的工程流程,然後如果確定有不足的部分的話呢,我們會請行政院納入未來的前瞻計畫。我回去轉告給他們,這樣我處理得盡啦,這樣好不好?委員報告,原來補助11億,後來增加的單位增加到16億,要請苗栗縣政府把那個增加的流程要補足。"},{"start":585.307,"end":602.152,"text":"而且他增加之後,自己在地方自治事項裡面開付出負擔的...沒有,他的補助款也隨著負擔啦。您在講什麼,是不是...負擔6億嘛。這比較難做,你們那個不會啦。好好做就一定會票數增加啦。好,謝謝。再來苗栗醫院的。呃,劉部長,拜託啊。我們不是這樣啦。我們是乾苦的孩子。"},{"start":619.416,"end":643.384,"text":"委員好部長好苗栗市支援醫療支援比較缺乏的地方苗栗縣的集中生醫院集總流中心講了好久110年111年施政方院長到現在為止每一個地方去每一個都要做到現在113年"},{"start":647.525,"end":673.524,"text":"齁,這個工程已經流標了,放射腫瘤流標14次,集中症醫院擴建流標6次,就是欠錢嘛,要一直流標嘛,啊你這個能拜託嗎?每一次到的時候,選舉到的時候大家都要講重視苗栗的醫療資源,這點,能特別拜託?啊不,欸,院長,這是苗栗困難問題。"},{"start":675.711,"end":687.183,"text":"的所在我希望你尊重的解決。我不是來應付的,大家插證你都幾十年了解的。我是很真心誠意請你幫我們解決問題。請你幫我們倒數一下。怎麼樣,這個能不能趕快?"},{"start":692.028,"end":714.461,"text":"我們很注重各地這種醫療水準的完全的提升所以醫療設施醫療設備包括這個中大型醫院能夠在縣市裡面讓它興建而且充實內容當然是對於國人的健康最有幫助的但是衛福部也一定是詳實在規劃那這個苗栗醫院已經進行到相當的程度這個已經到產有研究的問題新內閣新氣象新AI的內閣"},{"start":721.476,"end":723.777,"text":"謝謝委員長期對苗栗營醫療資源的爭取,我們非常感謝"},{"start":743.47,"end":763.871,"text":"那有關於集中症醫療計畫大樓跟放射腫瘤治療擴建工程其實都是苗栗縣民在醫療資源的增加當中非常重視的兩個地方那的確也是流標多次集中症6次放腫大樓14次所以現在已經召開多次的檢討會議"},{"start":764.872,"end":765.772,"text":"你沒有選舉,我有選舉,我曉得我困難、我痛苦在哪個地方。你只要說我要去那邊解決問題就好。"},{"start":790.057,"end":790.837,"text":"這個問題看起來蠻大,但是對苗栗很確實。"},{"start":817.199,"end":845.728,"text":"我今天怎麼樣,我自己就問一下。部長你可以回去了,這個可能是內政部跟農業部。今天我提出來,指定苗栗縣為地區環坡釋放區,打造臺灣的清淨者。苗栗縣的山坡地大概佔全縣的86%。院長,你知道我們苗栗縣的山坡地現在一家中3000坪,大概1500萬。"},{"start":848.254,"end":874.542,"text":"一千五百萬要買你身上的房子,要買你台北的房子,買不到十平,啊你這樣有公平嗎?尤其山坡地的開發,你要看每個地方的情況不一樣,明天你占了86%,現在農民土地價格下跌,我心中永遠不滿意的。這個世界真沒有公平,你主意聽好,我不知道你有做過事嗎?"},{"start":876.052,"end":888.967,"text":"那六都的土地都市化、基化的農業區可以經過都市變更,變成自宅區、商業區。一樣的農民、一樣的農地它可以變,這邊被受限了10時點。"},{"start":891.37,"end":911.529,"text":"阿你們都市人,星期一到星期五燈紅酒綠在這旁邊參詢。拜那禮拜,我們的好山好水、綠山清,要給你們心想,來享受疫情,限制的非常多。所以我今天特別為地方鐵絲結絲要求大家,"},{"start":912.608,"end":926.133,"text":"而尤其現在物農在山坡地切水切工,你說要種水果種水稻,你自己就一年要休耕一次了,你來科學這個地方,那種就不務實的想法。"},{"start":927.472,"end":955.758,"text":"那我們地球環保到日本看一看打造出來有多漂亮我們為什麼又做不到這樣的宣傳所以我就這樣一刮看兩台手蓋譬如你農地什麼路要蓋在中央你山坡地、丘陵地不一樣還有只有種水果水稻才叫做經濟作物我種高級的樹木不是經濟作物嘛不要被學者這樣以為他的思想很先進那不實際"},{"start":957.941,"end":978.73,"text":"私底下我帶你去看以前開發的散歩地多好,多漂亮。我特別要求的是在苗栗成為第二次反撲的示範區,一個鄉鎮先做一個,兩個鄉鎮做一個,來打造看看。"},{"start":980.25,"end":1007.846,"text":"不可以照以往的傳統觀念來拋棄農民啊。山坡地現在要做什麼?要自家立產,自家寫到什麼地啊?沒有人去展。你們都市人了解嗎?不了解。現在的缺工要怎麼耕種?你要如何活化?你們說保障農民,你把農民的財產降低。都市的農地一直在變更,這是什麼血感?因為農地會變成我的山坡地、農地,我不會做什麼。怎麼會這樣?"},{"start":1011.765,"end":1033.987,"text":"委員長,我希望你下來看一下。好,謝謝委員。人口往都會區集中,產業往都會以及各個專業區集中,這個是一個趨勢。所以,賴總統在提出了幸福農業快樂農民的這個政策,所謂對農村再生條例等等,還有很多式的補貼,我們都有在做這個事情。"},{"start":1034.648,"end":1041.351,"text":"那當然對農民我認為,這國家是根本,農業國家是根本。我這個提出來絕對有用意,絕對是要改變現狀,改變不合理的現狀嘛。這個現狀是不是部長能夠說明一下,請博士部長說明一下。"},{"start":1056.897,"end":1078.631,"text":"沒有,我跟委員報告齁,就是苗栗地區因為它地形特殊齁,那相關的這些波地農業我們未來會持續。然後另外照你剛才所提到的齁,在我們的農村再生裡面結合區域治理本身齁,就可以達到這樣,類似這樣的一個目的啦。不是類似這樣的目的,來的確實以前很多刁難的條件不一樣。"},{"start":1079.778,"end":1097.432,"text":"您的同意我們要先定日自治法規才4萬7有做過有摸過好壞在這裡面就能顯示出來可能給農村帶來不同心這去到台北45分鐘去到台中15分鐘去到高雄75分鐘到台北退休的人本來這裡不是多好,縮都好"},{"start":1104.827,"end":1111.945,"text":"搞什麼方便?頭腦要改變要創新嘛,你哪有創新?嘴巴講創新一點都不創新。"},{"start":1113.581,"end":1114.481,"text":"委員﹚陳超明委員﹚陳超明"},{"start":1135.37,"end":1135.59,"text":"再來我要討論"},{"start":1165.026,"end":1182.391,"text":"陶芝苗大溪谷計劃。第一,現在韓國國務法會,你們這經濟部我一直在討論陶芝苗大溪谷計劃苗栗縣現在已經提出了大概960公頃的一個計劃,裡面包括職產科第二期"},{"start":1187.622,"end":1212.034,"text":"包括頭雲的科學園區包括厚隆的科技產業園區這個地方跟新竹市、新竹縣、新竹科學園區、跟公園院、跟交通大學、跟清華大學非常近,等於是啊。所以我們要打拚,我們要分手,我們要改變苗栗的命運。"},{"start":1213.106,"end":1234.512,"text":"我們這個地方已經有科技的基礎地,這個大溪谷之外,報告院長趕快幫我們核定,讓我們來拚。這個是連接北部,連接中部,只缺苗栗這一塊。這一塊連接完成的時候,大概溪部走廊的科技廊道就完成了。"},{"start":1236.212,"end":1252.456,"text":"這是一個以半導體跟AI串聯起來的,而且能夠建構完整產業生態系的。那麼我們也希望說苗栗縣政府能夠繼續的把土地盤點出來,能夠增加在竹南或是頭份有適當的土地,能夠讓國科會來進行規劃或是辦理。那持續後的這個程度我們來處理。我是特別拜託你,因為王部長"},{"start":1264.056,"end":1281.149,"text":"講過我們臺灣的科技有50年的黃金期所以我們這個地方開發起來會改變苗栗的命運苗栗的未來我這不是跟你講假的我希望你這個如果送上來要趕快來核定好不好這幾個計畫"},{"start":1284.385,"end":1309.925,"text":"好 這個經濟部或是國外會都有目前的進度在進行我會請他們到苗栗縣實地考察你們比較少到苗栗縣我去的時候我科家在請你們你真的假如苗栗縣是一個非常好的地方這幾個園區是完全新築科學園區的那一帶都延伸到這邊有衝出去的話拜託一下好不好我們的那個郭部長"},{"start":1312.062,"end":1337.527,"text":"你上次有答應喔,現在這邊再答應一次喔。報告委員,這個現在土地的問題是還有一些私有地啦,私人的土地,這些協調完了以後啊,就馬上可以報銜。我相信很多都需要協調,我自己很了解,地方很期盼這個完成。國化委主委送到這兩個地方,這個大概是土地的變更是由內政部跟國化部、行政院合訂的。"},{"start":1338.547,"end":1361.055,"text":"阿姨要推動是你們在推動的好不好給苗栗縣支一股加油的力量給我們一點勝利不然看來你們台南高雄、甲嶼、阿摩的行就走掉了我表明是保地你們不切水不切電阿不搭檔你們去哪裡選擇的地方好不好"},{"start":1364.452,"end":1368.294,"text":"主委跟部長都會到現場了解狀況以後,我們就照這個目前進行的程序一直進行,那也希望地方政府、縣政府也能夠加強配合。現在換交通部啦"},{"start":1394.796,"end":1404.713,"text":"交通部的李部長,你們請回座。交通部李部長"},{"start":1415.287,"end":1438.418,"text":"苗栗縣的建設以往都要被篇幅掉像台13甲前台灣省四線道的省公路最後一段在苗栗在我任內把它完成了所以尤其我們的部長你當過行政院秘書長我會跟你們接洽了好幾次那報告院長"},{"start":1440.104,"end":1466.591,"text":"這個大西湖計畫苗栗發展很重要我今天特別提出來有幾點請幫我們加強之重那我也感謝上一次你們也合訂了台61線也就是西邊公路從新竹本來到香山我曾經的話這要從香山連接到貨龍一共180億"},{"start":1470.297,"end":1484.472,"text":"謝謝你打電話來我特別感謝你這一條很重要我希望趕快快速的推動還有苗栗縣的台72縣接台61西邊公路這一條也核定了40.23億"},{"start":1486.704,"end":1512.141,"text":"再來,海線的雙規劃,一定嗎?鐵路的雙規劃,鐵路的雙規劃在廟宇都給我撈到蓋後面。60幾月苦苦地哀求了好幾年,現在才推動這個綜合規劃。我希望這個綜合規劃能趕快及時地進行好不好。那這裡面,我們的台72線,叫做南橫。"},{"start":1513.732,"end":1533.92,"text":"苗栗縣現在交通網缺了一個重要點,就是所有重要道路,譬如台一縣,國道一號、國道三號都沒有聯絡網。那台七十二縣剛好可以做這個聯絡網。你在銅鑼還是投屋那邊做一個聯絡網的道路,連接著國道一號。"},{"start":1535.08,"end":1557.031,"text":"然後現在你有經過國道3號到西邊但是國道3號你沒有聯絡網的交通這邊可以編列進去因為這個帶動循環不管你科技的發展不管你觀光的發展這幾個那個交通的閘道把它完成的話我相信苗栗縣的交通建設就會非常的完整啊這個好好拜託"},{"start":1562.343,"end":1580.289,"text":"跟委員報告就是您提到的這幾個有關苗栗的重大的交通建設那有的已經可行性已經核定那現在再進入相關的規劃進一步的建設這個我們會加速流程那現在比較特別是72聯絡這個我想很重要"},{"start":1583.89,"end":1608.169,"text":"可以讓這個快速入網可以銜接那這個部分已經可行性也核定我們在後面來加速推動那可能有一個就是也跟委員報告就是臺72連接國一跟國三他跟既有的交流道都太近都不足兩公里那另外72又是沿著後龍溪所以他會有這個河川工地的這個問題"},{"start":1609.87,"end":1617.813,"text":"那這個我們還在想辦法克服。因為你稍微站起來,再來大西谷計劃新竹縣市已經有牽軌計劃。但是院長我跟您報告,自然頭分是很重要的一個兩個鄉鎮。它跟新竹市跟科學園區完全是連接在一起的。"},{"start":1636.226,"end":1648.923,"text":"那這個輕軌計劃如果你真的要發展這個科技走廊一定要把主軟頭拉住這個輕軌計劃,他都雞皮疙瘩在背地那對於交通對於未來的交通改善會很大的幫助"},{"start":1650.956,"end":1669.943,"text":"新的科學研究就有5秒來人,等一下上班。那我想,院長跟我們部長,這個輕軌計畫,我會請苗栗縣政府提出來。連接著輕軌主覽特訓,因為兩個是鄰近的相似,結比鄰在一起的,好不好?齁,這個議員,突然提出來,你們好像還不怎麼稱職還是?"},{"start":1678.969,"end":1703.615,"text":"就是這個部分我們會再進一步了解不過現在目前新竹的輕軌因為有縣跟市所以新竹縣市正在整合再加一個苗栗縣你下來的話我看就會解決了我大概他們也有溝通協調我大概了解好不好這點給我們加強一下你要曉得苗栗縣的重大計畫是靠海的地方科技走廊"},{"start":1704.715,"end":1719.15,"text":"三邊的話觀光休閒海邊的人賺錢給三邊的人去休閒享受這是一個基本的概念跟規劃在希望你全力支持因為那邊水庫很多你們以前不缺水苗栗縣幫忙很多"},{"start":1720.151,"end":1736.011,"text":"這次我也要跟委員報告,這次端午的連假,全國各縣市的旅館的住房率、苗率是...我剩下沒有多少,我改天再邀你下來。現在還有兩條,就是我們海線通宵跟銅鑼科學園區,"},{"start":1738.073,"end":1759.563,"text":"通宵的人口本來是第四名的現在掉到第七名,沒有產業在那邊。所以我主張開一條從銅鑼科學園期到通宵,這叫做通宵產業生命之路。這沒得,先給你挨五百、五十萬,評估費用來好分,好分年趕緊來進行。"},{"start":1761.229,"end":1787.464,"text":"因為未來的重大建設還是要你們行政院交通部來支持啦好不好再來剩下一分鐘院裡的車站我們的副院長你的家鄉你要好好照顧哈你下來看這個特別人家交代我說不到你要轉告給你副院長這個姊姊那個跨站市長還有苗栗縣最可憐的鄉鎮到最近才有7-11"},{"start":1789.589,"end":1814.223,"text":"以前我在高速公路裏面設立了藍日北出因為那個地選高所以交流啦現在我們也找到一條捷徑的路就是北日藍出,這要高層滿我們現在你財政收入化分化負債那麼高這條差不多高層幾萬,一定我先幫你報告一下,給我支持一下以前施政長院長最支持這個"},{"start":1815.373,"end":1830.99,"text":"大概這個地方要的經費他沒配額款他去看的時候結果這個鄉鎮實在發展受限制了我希望你也幫我解決這個問題好不好這個我們會去看過之後再來跟委員討論我看你這樣下去表演齁你選舉當秘書長會沒有人了"},{"start":1863.587,"end":1864.388,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員好,謝謝卓院長"},{"start":1867.472,"end":1870.34,"text":"報告院會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529ada2d3a4153add52384a337f76c37b5ea57f55736a2b3a8b244487b956cd7ee2d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:32:40 - 09:48:30","影片長度":"00:15:50","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-18","start_time":"2024-06-18T09:32:40+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-18T09:48:30+08:00","duration":950,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議","id":"院會-11-1-18","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":132,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時32分）謝謝主席。主席，有請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：院長好。今天是18號，所以你在520上任以後其實即將要滿月了，我看今天媒體針對院長、包括內閣有出了幾篇報導，但是感覺上這些報導的方向都認為我們現在包括財經內閣狀況外，還有政治小白、閣員遭到綠委狂電，其實我不知道這個標題是怎麼來的，但是我想我們在跟院長碰面的時候都是給建議，不過確實也有媒體認為我們這些閣員有很多人是來自產業界，所以可能我們的內閣都還在磨合。院長，您認為我們的內閣磨合好、也準備好要帶領我們臺灣走向另外一個新的高峰嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的鼓勵還有提醒，從520到現在真的將近1個月，我們花了很長的時間在準備跟立法院做施政報告，也花了很多的時間在準備就立法院提出的案子來進行憲法上的救濟，但是我們也花了一點時間在做內部人事的磨合跟穩定。我想在一開始的時候可能大家對於這種官場的文化、立法院跟行政院互動的文化比較不熟悉，但是我覺得那都應該是10天、2個禮拜之前的事情，經過……"],["林委員楚茵：所以對於被稱為「外星人內閣」，你可以接受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是，我們長得都跟大家一模一樣，但是經過4次跟委員的餐敘，以及很多次在委員會裡面的互動，彼此的瞭解都應該非常進步了，而且大家應該也發現，他們的專業是非常讓人家敬佩的，他們能夠從專業的角度甚至產業界的角度，提出跟我們以前比較不一樣的角度來看，我覺得大家應該用這種更寬容、包容的心來交換更多的意見，這個對內閣團隊是好事，對國家也一定是好事。"],["林委員楚茵：所以身為行政團隊的一員，除了專業之外，當然政治的部分恐怕也是要慢慢地學習怎麼樣跟立法院溝通，行政、立法才可以齊步走。嚴肅的問題問完之後，我要問個輕鬆的，院長有沒有看過所謂網紅影片？你認識哪些網紅？因為最近網紅題目很夯啊！你可以輕鬆回答，因為是輕鬆題，所以你輕鬆回答，有也可以，沒有也沒關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員也是網紅。"],["林委員楚茵：所以看過我的影片嗎？好，那你知道現在我們在網路上的網紅，不論是透過YouTube或者是其他的數位平臺，如果有人贊助他們或者是花錢買廣告，他們怎麼稱這個廣告商，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員明示。"],["林委員楚茵：好，他們會在影片當中說：「謝謝乾爹贊助」，所以「乾爹」是他們所謂的贊助商。我們現在回到嚴肅的話題，其實本席從質詢以來，請看我的投影片，我不斷地在關注中國統戰臺灣的方式，從過去有所謂的融媒體，找出在地協力者，然後透過抖音、紅書的文化統戰，再到中小型媒體的認知作戰跟介選，現在最新的方法就是收買網紅，給他贊助、給他金錢，那麼這些中國乾爹，我們到底有沒有辦法置入……因為臺灣是一個言論自由的國家，所以在這些網路上面的影片，我們不可能封殺，但是如果他今天是花錢講中國好山好水、好棒棒、中國好安全，如果這是花錢的，有中國乾爹，那就是廣告、就是置入，那就應該要讓乾爹現形！","事實上，我要強調的是，在很多的平臺當中，包括Google，只要是拿贊助的，這些網紅會直接寫說：感謝乾爹某某某贊助、感謝乾爹誰誰誰。如果是這樣的話，這些含有中國乾爹贊助的相關網紅跟影片一旦現形，我相信臺灣的人民會知道，到底你是收錢說中國好還是你真的覺得中國好。甚至於現在又傳出有藝人要組政黨、網紅藝人要組政黨，這些背後如果有中國乾爹，我就要就教院長，這樣所謂的中國乾爹有沒有法規可以讓它現形？又或者是說現在的法規不足，必須要有別的方式讓中國乾爹現形？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。其實我一直覺得相較於武力的威脅、經濟的威脅，最大的還是這種文化的入侵。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：這種文化的入侵是隨時、無時無刻在潛移默化當中，而且是在生活周遭的，所以我很希望國人能夠提升自己內心的防衛力量，知道當我們進到對方的遊戲規則當中，如何從中抽身是非常困難的，而且一陷下去，可能傷害的不只是個人，是整個很大的一個群組。所以類似這樣網路上的行為，我還是希望，我們當然尊重言論自由跟網路的自主，但是我們適時站在政府的角色提出非常清楚的預告、預警絕對是必要的，也謝謝委員今天的提醒。"],["林委員楚茵：所以我要問邱主委，現在有所謂從融媒體到乾爹養，有融臺、有買臺還有打臺，在這個部分，我們到底有沒有辦法制定相關的法律讓中國乾爹現形呢？本席是媒體出來的，我們來看廣電相關的法規，不論是電視或者是廣播，就是它有所謂行銷的規範，那數位平臺有嗎？廣播、電視的部分都會認為，如果今天是有廣告，那就要載明是廣告，不然的話，融臺之後買臺，然後另外一方面它又打臺，包括我講的打臺，不是只是指共軍繞臺喔！包括臺灣的媒體人都可以被中國列為所謂的不歡迎對象、監控對象，所以你要是不收錢，不然我打你、監控你、甚至懲治你，那麼在數位平臺當中，有沒有可能陸委會跟數位部等相關的部會來制定一套讓中國乾爹現形的方式？"],["邱主任委員垂正：非常感謝委員的提醒。您剛剛所說的，如何讓背後的乾爹或者是背後的贊助者能夠現形，我們現行的打詐專法草案就有廣告實名制，能夠揭露他背後的贊助者或是廣告的來源，讓我們國人知道所收看到的這些網路節目背後是誰在支持，這非常重要！所以我們籲請國人共同支持我們的打詐專法草案。"],["林委員楚茵：所以就是接下來的打詐專法草案當中，就會針對數位平臺所提供的內容提起必要的法律責任，或是連帶的責任？"],["邱主任委員垂正：此外我還跟委員報告，要預防這個還是要從識讀能力的提升來加強，包括有兩個環節，一個當然是我們對於識讀中國大陸、識讀兩岸關係的教育課程提升，讓有意赴中國大陸或是到中國大陸求學就業的人有這個課程，很感謝陸委會跟教育部一直在合作。另外一方面就是在網路識讀能力的提升，遇到來路不明、疑似中國大陸的網紅在對我們認知作戰的時候，我們要學習不外傳，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：好。所以有關於網紅、網路的部分，其實講到的就像院長所說的，文化是非常重要，文化統戰是最可怕的。我想經濟能夠讓一個國家往前走，但是文化才是最重要、偉大的、最後的關鍵力量，所以我相信院長你一定同意，那就是文化是有價的！但是現在我們會發現，在我們強力推動文化的時候，我們文化部現有的貸款方式是加強文化創意升級轉型貸款，以及文化創意產業青年創業及啟動金貸款，你要知道文化有價，但是回到擔保條件的時候，我們很多銀行是上有政策、下有對策，到後來評估的條件還是土地、建物，或者是第一順位的抵押品都必須是房屋或土地，部長，這會不會又反而過來倒打了文化產業一巴掌？因為最後回到金融機構，金融機構它不評估你的內容、它不評估你的文化資產或者是文化內容有價的部分，它在乎的還是那個看得見的房子、看得見的土地，所以這個部分，包括金管會在內、財經部會在內，可不可以真的給文化一股新活水、給文化一點肯定？主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：金管會有沒有對文化特別的考慮？因為它考量的是清償能力。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的……"],["林委員楚茵：是，主委，但是我們在政府獎勵的部分，真的就只能用紮紮實實的土地或者是房子嗎？這樣子回歸過來，你要知道，還是沒有鼓勵到文化產業啊！未來有沒有可能考慮在這個部分跟金融機構溝通，至少他們在貸款的時候，對於土地或房屋這種實質的不動產比例能夠下降？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員。據我瞭解，現在我們在法規上，對於是不是要用土地或是無形資產作為擔保品是沒有限制的，只是實務上銀行大概都習慣以比較容易有公平價值的不動產，當然他們也在做，比如說有取得文化部基金擔保的，它是可以來做這個的；還有就是我知道現在很多部會在推動所謂智慧財產評價的一些模式，如果未來可以朝這個方向，讓這個價格能夠更透明、更客觀，我想銀行應該是可以來配合。"],["林委員楚茵：好，院長，我之所以會提起這個問題是連帶剛剛上面的，如果中國乾爹不斷地在養臺灣的藝人、臺灣的網紅、臺灣的文化產業，我們當然就會被吸過去，它只要是文化置入，我們根本無一倖免！所以臺灣必須要給予一定的肯定。","我們來看下一張，其實本席去查了，2014年我們就有一個文化資產鑑價平臺，但是這個平臺在2017年已經宣告死亡了，當時它其實就是希望給無形的文化資產有一個鑑價的平臺、充實內容產業的人才，但是現在發現，事實上它是完全沒有在運作的。所以在這邊我也提供給主委建議，可以回去思考一下，是不是重新啟動或是成立一個類似的平臺？因為銀行沒有這樣的人去瞭解文化資產、文化內容到底有多少實質價格。時隔10年到2024年了，我相信大家對於文化的思考、文化內容的思考會不一樣，也許類似這樣的平臺可以重新啟動，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，我們會來研究，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：好。最後一個本席關注的是有關於資安的問題，我們現在已經來到了畢業季，我想跟院長提出幾個數據，根據調查研究瞭解，在2024年資安準備指數當中，全臺只有8%的企業可以完成現在的資安風險，但是其實臺灣有98%是中小企業，我們知道大企業，你說台積電，你說這些大型的機構，它的資安絕對沒有問題，可是這98%的中小企業沒有做好資安風險控管的時候，我要舉出另外一個例子，我剛講到畢業季，全臺灣有將近一萬八千個資安科系的畢業生，但是事實上只有兩千人會就業，也就是大概只有11%進入資安產業，那是因為沒有就業的名額、沒有這些工作嗎？其實不是喔！根據臺灣資安聯盟的數據，臺灣每個月有三千個資安的缺額，不論是在中小企業或者是在我們全方位的產業面當中，言下之意就是第一個中小企業缺資安完整度，只有8%，竟然每個月有三千個職缺，每年有一萬八千個畢業生，可是只有兩千人進入這個市場。","另外我要一併講的第三個問題是，部長、院長，所謂MIT或是我們的自有品牌、算臺灣的自主品牌，你們知道占有多少的比例就可以稱為臺灣自主品牌嗎？35%，就是只要有35%就可以稱為MIT，就是臺灣的自主品牌。可是院長，你一定知道，一個資安的系統，它是一個軟體，它絕對不可能只有35%，其他是別人寫的，那麼到底臺灣的資安系統所使用的這些軟體是不是真的是MIT？我要提出的第三個疑問就是，如果是我們臺灣自己研發的軟體，到底有沒有可能給一個MIT、真正臺灣自主產品的標籤？這樣政府也可以鼓勵臺灣優秀的資安人才投入不論是設計研發或者是操作，就可以補強前面的問題。","以上是我提出的三個疑問。稍後我也會跟臺灣資安聯盟相關的成員來召開記者會，但是在記者會之前，我希望聽到院長針對剛剛聽到的三個問題，答復有沒有可能落實資安即國安，然後我們能夠從這三個面向來解決？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府推動數位轉型，對象也在於中小微企業，幫助他們做企業轉型，在數位轉型過程當中，資安問題當然是重要的一環，我們希望經濟部也好、教育部也好能夠來做媒合。經濟部也有一個計畫，要在大大小小的公司、各中小企業裡面，能夠給他們一些資安人員的協助、訓練、人才的培育，如果這個計畫初步能夠達到的話，我們才能夠幫助他們真的做到資安轉型。再來，我們在data center的設計方面，如果可以做到自己有自主性的軟體，我們叫做主權AI的時候，才能夠提供我們的產業去針對我們的需求拿到我們自己所要的資料。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我最後只要求院長承諾，對於百分之百國產的MIT資安軟體，我們就給它一個認證、一個標章作為鼓勵，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請經濟部、數位部來處理。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","下一位請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1135701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.704718750000001,"end":11.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.67471875,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.500343750000003,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.51721875,"end":20.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.53409375,"end":21.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.37784375,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.52534375,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.58846875,"end":68.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.96534375,"end":70.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.87221875,"end":72.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.16721875,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.83346875000001,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.66409375,"end":81.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.41909375,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.10159375,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.87721875000001,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.51784375000001,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.85034375000001,"end":105.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.57159375,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.86221875000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.61284375000001,"end":111.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.13159375000001,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.19846875,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.97034375000001,"end":120.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.51846875000001,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.48846875000001,"end":123.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.83846875,"end":126.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.50909375,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.92534375,"end":140.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.38034375,"end":153.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.04909375,"end":159.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.61346875,"end":168.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.46034375000002,"end":169.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.97909375,"end":185.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.60096875000002,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.57971875,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.79659375,"end":206.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.00284375,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.89221875000004,"end":298.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.87034375,"end":300.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.09346875,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.50659375000004,"end":304.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.87784375,"end":308.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.33721875000003,"end":311.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.89784375,"end":312.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.64034375,"end":313.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.39534375,"end":317.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.33159375,"end":318.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.52971875000003,"end":321.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.42784375,"end":328.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.33409375,"end":330.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.49409375000005,"end":337.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.56471875,"end":339.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.92721875,"end":341.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.15471875000003,"end":347.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.00221875,"end":359.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.16034375000004,"end":366.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.61909375000005,"end":368.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.54721875,"end":377.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.01409375000003,"end":388.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.11784375,"end":408.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.82784375,"end":414.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.66659375,"end":418.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.90221875000003,"end":420.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.53909375,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.38971875000004,"end":432.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.75659375000004,"end":437.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.56596875,"end":444.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.61971875,"end":455.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.80784375,"end":463.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.41846875000005,"end":479.66909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479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533,"text":"那這個很感謝陸委會跟教育部一直在合作那另外一方面就是在網路試讀能力的提升遇到這個來路不明以示中國大陸的網紅在對於我們認知作戰的時候我們要學習博外傳謝謝"},{"start":495.814,"end":515.005,"text":"好所以呢有關於網紅網路的部分其實講到的就像院長所說的其實文化是非常重要文化統戰是最可怕的我想經濟能夠讓一個國家往前走但是文化才是最重要偉大的最後的關鍵力量所以我相信院長你一定同意那就是文化是有價的"},{"start":515.825,"end":541.227,"text":"但是如果說現在我們會發現在我們強力的在推動文化的時候我們文化部現有的貸款的方式是加強文化創意提升轉型的貸款以及文化創意產業青年創業及啟動金的貸款但是你要知道文化有價但是回到擔保條件的時候包括我們的很多銀行是上有政策下有對策到後來"},{"start":541.988,"end":558.49,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":558.49,"end":558.55,"text":"主委"},{"start":579.16,"end":607.242,"text":"金管會有沒有對文化特別的來考量?因為他考量的是清償能力。是,但是這個我們在政府獎勵的部分真的就只能用紮紮實實的土地或者房子嗎?那這樣子回歸過來,你要知道還是沒有鼓勵到文化產業啊。未來有沒有可能考慮在這個部分跟金融機構做溝通,至少他們在貸款的時候對於土地或房屋這種實質的不重產能夠比例下降?"},{"start":608.102,"end":630.315,"text":"謝謝委員,現在據我了解現在我們在法規上對於是不是要用土地或是無形資產來做一個擔保品是沒有限制的只是陳儒剛才我們實務上銀行大概都習慣是以比較容易有公平價值的不動產但他們也在做比如說假設這有取得比如說有文化部基金的擔保的他是可以來做這個的"},{"start":631.536,"end":632.577,"text":"好,院長我之所以提取這個問題是連帶剛剛上面的"},{"start":648.186,"end":666.586,"text":"如果中國乾爹不斷地在養台灣的藝人台灣的網紅台灣的文化產業那我們當然就會被吸過去他只要是文化置入那麼我們根本無一倖免所以台灣必須要給予一定的肯定包括我們來看下一張其實本席去查了2014年我們就有一個"},{"start":667.026,"end":692.999,"text":"文化資產的建架平台但是呢這個平台在2017年已經宣告死亡了他其實當時就是希望給無形的文化資產有一個建架的平台充實內容產業的人才但是現在發現他事實上是完全沒有在運作的所以這邊我也提供給主委建議可以回去思考一下是不是重新啟動或是成立一個類似的平台因為銀行沒有這樣的人去了解到底文化資產"},{"start":693.999,"end":694.199,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員,我們會來研究,謝謝。"},{"start":710.595,"end":733.349,"text":"好,最後一個本席關注的是有關於資安的問題,我們其實現在已經來到了這個畢業季,我想跟院長提出幾個數據,包括事實上根據調查研究了解,在2024年資安準備指數當中,全台只有8%的企業是可以有所謂完成現在的資安風險,但是其實台灣有90%"},{"start":736.371,"end":752.719,"text":"八是中小企業我們知道大企業你說台積電你說這些大型的機構他的資安絕對沒有問題可是在98%的中小企業沒有做好資安風險控管的時候我要舉出另外一個例子是我剛講到畢業季全台灣有將近18000個資安科系的畢業生"},{"start":758.041,"end":776.294,"text":"但是事實上只有2000人會就業那麼也就是大概只有11%會進入資安產業那是因為沒有就業的這些名額沒有這些就業的工作嗎?其實不是喔根據資安相關的聯盟台灣資安聯盟的數據台灣每個月有3000個"},{"start":777.995,"end":780.516,"text":"另外就是我要一並講的第三個問題是"},{"start":803.929,"end":815.861,"text":"院長您知道這個所謂MIT或是我們自由品牌算是台灣的自主品牌的話,您知道這個東西佔有百分之多少的比例就可以稱為台灣自主品牌,您知道嗎?"},{"start":818.166,"end":834.548,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":834.648,"end":848.344,"text":"那麼到底台灣的資安系統所使用的這些軟體是不是真的MIT?我要提出的第三個疑問就是那麼到底我們有沒有可能是台灣如果是我們自己研發的軟體"},{"start":849.565,"end":849.705,"text":"﹚林楚茵"},{"start":883.844,"end":902.515,"text":"政府推動數位轉型對象也在於中小微企業幫助他做企業轉型那數位轉型過程當中資安問題當然是一個重要的一環我們希望經濟部也好教育部也好能夠來做媒合那經濟部也有一個計畫要在大大小小的公司各種小企業裡面能夠"},{"start":902.995,"end":929.787,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":942.165,"end":943.507,"text":"好,謝謝林委員。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}