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針對第二條的部分衛福部在作出修正動議那請問各位委員對於衛福部今天提出來的版本有沒有意見好 來陳昭智委員好 謝謝主席在第二條已經是在這個大本的第二頁的地方"},{"start":1943.331,"end":1945.535,"text":"本黨團是希望對於所謂的虛擬創作的部分能夠也把它"},{"start":1955.168,"end":1978.726,"text":"就是在虛擬方面要排除所以我們的字眼會有這個地方女性向客觀上所引起刺激或滿足性而無藝術性、醫學性或教育性價值而令一般人感覺不堪承信於眾或不能忍受而排除之土化這個目的是這樣子但是剛剛當然有一些溝通他們是 衛福部是把它寫在這個條文說明裡面"},{"start":1981.468,"end":2000.153,"text":"那本黨是認為說這個就是所排除的那個虛擬創作放在本條文裡面就是比較明確那放在說明的地方其實是可以是可以在再來討論那我們希望我們希望是可以放在這個本條文當中好謝謝主席好還有沒有其他委員有其他意見"},{"start":2007.591,"end":2033.494,"text":"那是不是衛福部再說明一下為什麼要放在說明欄因為《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》其實是這個刑法的特別法那在刑法的2、3、5條裡頭有針對民眾黨黨團提的這些文字在這個2、3、5條裡頭它也是截圖圖畫文字那因此我們在跟這個ACG團體溝通的時候他們也同意說我們放在這個說明欄"},{"start":2034.955,"end":2045.541,"text":"然後避免他在這個特別法的文字跟普通法文字這個會有一些漢格同時放在說明欄他保持一個彈性以上建議"},{"start":2049.502,"end":2073.699,"text":"那張職民眾黨是不是可以接受?也有跟團體溝通過。我們是覺得明確性是比較不足啦。那就算說法官法庭在判決的時候,我們不知道他會不會去注意到這個所謂的說明欄的這個資訊。那我們請那個是不是司法單位法務部跟司法院說一下,如果這樣的修法你們會不會注意到?"},{"start":2077.221,"end":2102.893,"text":"有關這個定義就是文字它的定義它的概念我們的意見是是不是因為像這樣的概念它通常會隨著社會觀念的發展會有不同的內涵那我們是比較建議維持衛福部的版本留在說明欄然後讓這個主管機關解釋主管法規的彈性空間可以及時來因應社會情勢的變遷這樣是不是會比較好"},{"start":2103.956,"end":2122.711,"text":"那放在說明欄會不會有就是檢察官他們在起訴過程當中未注意?通常如果這樣的有疑義的話我們是會在那個說明欄都是我們參考的一個你每會兵都會參考嗎?都會參考是不會只是看不法的條文嗎?對不對?好來檢察官"},{"start":2126.007,"end":2141.674,"text":"我們這邊補充一下因為那個衛福部其實他在五月份的時候已經有發一個函式了就是針對就是把我們現在立法裡有說明的內容以發函的方式函式給我們幾個單位然後包含我們法務部也有那我們法務部收到函文的時候已經現在已經發"},{"start":2142.774,"end":2171.492,"text":"整個韓文到各地檢署去所以現在目前檢察署這一邊都已經有拿到這個函釋那說穿了就是說即使行政機關的函釋基本上是不拘束我們司法機關但是其實我們檢察官在辦案的時候其實都會參考參考這個意見所以基本上雖然這個寫在立法裡有但是我們現在函釋函釋下去了其實他們都大家都看得到了解好謝謝那司法院要補充說明嗎"},{"start":2177.237,"end":2187.582,"text":"就是各位委員早安那我說明一下就是就像剛剛張司長說的這個兒少性剝削防制條例他是屬於特別的刑罰"},{"start":2188.615,"end":2212.196,"text":"那所以他一定必須要站在普通刑法他這個既有的基礎上去做一個法的解釋那的確尤其是像這樣的一個數位的網路時代那其實快速的變遷那除以個案的不管是檢察官或者法官甚至第一線的司法警察人員他都必須要合於這樣一個法語時轉去必須要去妥適去解釋這樣的一個立法的目的的達成"},{"start":2213.157,"end":2237.383,"text":"那所以個案裡面的解釋論裡面大概就會透過目的性限縮、目的性擴張去符合我們的這樣一個兒少性剝削要防制兒少被剝削的這樣一個時代的一個任務所以我會建議就是我們還是由這個主管機關在做一個這樣法的價值的一個控管那至於個案呢大概就要回到法的本質去做個案的判斷以上謝謝"},{"start":2239.201,"end":2247.288,"text":"好謝謝那是不是我們就是按照這個衛福部的版本通過可以嗎那個陳昭智委員好那我們就按照衛福部的修正動議的條文通過來接下來第三條"},{"start":2260.682,"end":2269.886,"text":"第三條前次協商的時候爭議點會是在第二項的第五款警政主管機關的這個執掌那因為這個執掌目前呢他會涉牽涉到後面的51條51條如果過那回頭這個第三條的這個"},{"start":2281.892,"end":2292.203,"text":"第二項的第五款警論主管機關的選擇這個部分就可以確定那是不是可以建議主席這一條暫時保留好第三條保留來第38條"},{"start":2296.175,"end":2321.352,"text":"第38條在前次的協商我們建議維持現行條文理由是這個林月琴委員以及范雲委員建議對於這個犯本條例之罪違反個人資料保護要加重其刑二分之一這一段那因為當時考量到司法院跟法務部也建議在各支法已經有載明已經有相關的罰則在這個地方再重複"},{"start":2326.175,"end":2350.725,"text":"會有跌床駕屋的疑慮所以因此建議維持現行條文不以修正以上好 第三十八條維持現行條文委員們意見好 林委員好 我先就較於那個那個司法院那邊如果說今天各自因為本來范雲委員提的是要加重二分之一行政"},{"start":2352.165,"end":2354.386,"text":"各執法41條及38條,1至7年,各執法5年以下"},{"start":2368.362,"end":2390.664,"text":"姓剝削一年然後各執法我可能事實上是一年那一加一等於二可是沒有的話變成說我這邊判一年所以為什麼要在這邊講說那是不是可以加重二分之一比方一年然後我再加重二分之一可能是一年半所以先請教一下說會分別這樣子還是事實上是就單一的我今天用姓剝削因為"},{"start":2392.552,"end":2418.862,"text":"創意十方幾乎都是跟著各自在賣。多年後這些人還是不斷的被跟騷,對他們成年後生活影響非常非常的大。那我想如果各位有看到那個報導者在講到這些受害人的狀況的話,那我雖想就教育那個沙雅燕這邊可不可以給一個解釋說,到底會是怎樣。否則的話,先講說有各自法,可是不是一加一等於二的話根本沒有辦法解決問題。"},{"start":2419.802,"end":2431.851,"text":"最後還是一樣啊每個大家都是有個資跟著賣的每個資跟著賣的都是一年啊所以我們為什麼那時候范縣委員跟我們這邊會特別期待是說要甲種二分之一所以先就教謝謝好那是不是請我們廳長"},{"start":2438.908,"end":2462.589,"text":"我可以先補充一下然後等一下也可以請那個法務部的參事來做一個刑法的一個理論的一個就是我們評價上面的一個一般實務上會處理的做法那比如說現在的38條我們之前也有表達過一件事因為一個行為人他所做的一件這個就是一個行為那他如果符合兒童性剝削38條這樣一個形態的話"},{"start":2465.211,"end":2484.997,"text":"他當然就是會看說他是不是也同時去違反了譬如說各執法的這樣一個違反各執法的這樣一個犯罪的一個態樣那如果這兩個其實是同一行為那我們大概就會去用競合理論的方式去處理這個行為也就是說其實他如果他是有另外一個訴罪併罰情就會像剛剛劉委員講的是兩個加起來"},{"start":2488.158,"end":2517.438,"text":"但如果這個行為本來就是本質上就是一個行為那我們會用刑法的競合理論去解決這個法的適用的問題所以不會有一個就是漏了評價這個行為那至於剛剛魏請委員提到的那個刑法的對被害人的一個造成傷害請應該回到良心比如他這個行為對被害人造成的一個損害是多少那那個影響的深遠是多少他就可以做一個刑法的評價在這個七年以下一年以上部分去做一個法的評價"},{"start":2518.598,"end":2522.96,"text":"李彥秀等19人、委員羅廷瑋等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":2543.15,"end":2558.544,"text":"參與了詐欺集團的這個犯罪還會去加重因為他對少年去利用他來做車手這個另外的這個行為會再去做一個加重起刑二分之一他那個就是刑法分責的加重所以這個部分的一個立法我們還是會建議就是說這個就是"},{"start":2560.834,"end":2588.268,"text":"用主管機關他的這樣一個文字那不需要再去做一個家中騎行二分之一的這樣一個立法的一個模式所以委員擔心的部分我們將來會在我們的一個在職的教育訓練裡面去讓大家了解報導者還有就現在大家應該充分都非常了解說這個造成對兒少的一個深刻的一個影響那其他部分是不是可以請那個就是法務部看是主檢或者是參事來做一個補充謝謝"},{"start":2596.403,"end":2611.458,"text":"法務部在這裡就這條是不是要定加重其刑的這個條文做一個補充因為這個條文草案條文如果有加重其刑的話那到底我們這條定下去我們是依兒少性剝削"},{"start":2612.759,"end":2638.024,"text":"防制條例38條各項加重其刑還是要依個資法規定加重其刑其實這個部分這樣子規定並不是太明確為什麼呢我想從一個法理的部分也來跟大家說明一下因為如果說我們依照這個兒少性剝削第38條各項加重其刑的話那因為這個洩漏被害人的個資這個是一個獨立的犯行那跟兒少性剝削38條的行為"},{"start":2646.368,"end":2660.197,"text":"三十八條第一項跟第二項它本身的樣態是不一樣形度也不一樣但是我們現在要處罰的這個洩露個資的行為它的本質是一樣的因為不管它是三十八條第一項或者是第二項"},{"start":2661.772,"end":2662.893,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":2679.165,"end":2694.258,"text":"有不太合的齁是不太合但是如果我們依個資法的規定來加重其刑的話因為這個個資法本身它就是有刑事處罰的規定而且它是適用所有的個案那如果違反個資法犯刑的被害人是兒少的話"},{"start":2694.958,"end":2711.721,"text":"那行為人他是必須要適用《兒孝權法》的第112條第一項規定來加重期刑到二分之一其實這樣子規定下來他的刑度是會重的比如說一年到七年的那他就是七年再加上兒孝性剝削的"},{"start":2712.222,"end":2732.37,"text":"二分之一,那就各自的五年最重可以再加變成七年半,其實而且他如果訴罪定罰這是七年再加上七年半,其實這樣的刑律應該是重的吼,那我們是認為應該是沒有跌床駕屋的必要再去增訂一個加重期刑的38條第五項的狀況,那以上補充,謝謝。"},{"start":2734.211,"end":2734.512,"text":"主席"},{"start":2749.951,"end":2778.667,"text":"那這麼多年以來有因為創意私房也不是第一天存在它已經存在10年了那在111年破獲的時候有因為它販賣個資有這個刑度不一樣嗎那想先問這個如果有當然我們現在坐在這邊很放心剛剛講的那個法律有一些競合關係的話那我覺得OK啊如果過去在判刑本來本來就會去考慮到這個或考慮到我們的兒少全法"},{"start":2779.948,"end":2806.843,"text":"那如果沒有的話,我覺得今天怎麼會在,可以在這邊說服我們,因為我們會,為什麼我想范委員會特別提出來,因為他背後的一些,所以我可不可以在這邊可以就叫說,過去真的的確有因為擱置法而有加重,因為而且是一加一等於二。因為這,我說今天不是我們突然要去立這個法,那過往已經有了,那過往有沒有這樣子判嗎?可不可以回答我這一個問題,謝謝。"},{"start":2815.58,"end":2827.623,"text":"有沒有這樣的判例過去有沒有你們因為真的他就已經有販賣擱置你們真的是讓他一加一等於二這樣"},{"start":2832.162,"end":2857.034,"text":"報告委員因為其實因為我們現在目前手上沒有資料那說販賣個資這個部分可能要回去查詢才有辦法確定但是在我們之前在查獲這個創意私房的時候檢察官的起訴事實其實比較著重因為那是當時的修正因為我們看過一下那個起訴事實那當時的修正跟起訴的內容比較著重於那個收集性影像跟散佈性影像的這一塊"},{"start":2857.834,"end":2871.304,"text":"所以他那時候起訴的犯罪事實他是著重在散佈就是在買賣這個兒童性剝削的影響所以當時這個起訴的犯罪事實並沒有去收集到就是沒有去起訴到這個販賣"},{"start":2873.766,"end":2882.634,"text":"主委就是委員所提到的販賣個資這一塊但是販賣個資確實它是屬於如果說以這個情節來講的話如果說以委員舉例的這個情節來說其實它如果是有另外有販賣個資其實是真的是按照個資法它會有另外一條罪主席好可是今天幾乎創意市場它都是合併個資賣連觸感空間都是欸"},{"start":2900.083,"end":2921.432,"text":"那我的意思是說而且今天血淋淋的這些受害人他即便臉書換了一些名稱都還是被跟騷那你說他後半輩子要怎麼去過生活甚至他以後面對到交友、結婚這些都是問題的時候所以我們為什麼特別認為你合併各自賣的話跟一般"},{"start":2921.992,"end":2936.168,"text":"只是去販賣一個影像我覺得那還是不一樣所以我才會問你說如果說今天不要去加重二分之一過去一定都是一加一等於二的話那當然對我們來講我們覺得很放心那不用特別在這邊去加重二分之一行政"},{"start":2937.885,"end":2959.855,"text":"呃那現在我我說實在跟委員說一下齁我沒有辦法說呃一定是怎麼樣那過去過去我現在目前得到的資訊就是這樣那也許就是說檢察官在檢警以前在辦案的過程當中比較focus在就是那個性影像的散佈而已齁那這邊委員有提到的話那我們就是說我們接下來因為每年我們每年附又有三訊啊"},{"start":2961.896,"end":2968.222,"text":"我可以在附幼訓的過程當中去宣導讓檢察官去提升有關於三不各自的意識"},{"start":2972.561,"end":3001.16,"text":"對,我們在那個這次兒少性剝削條例裡面也有規定是說我們要做專業訓練嘛那其實我們婦幼其實我很經常就是利用我們婦幼研訓的時候就是把一些宣導因為其實檢察官辦案說實在話因為案件量很多然後形態非常的多所以大家可能就是著那個重點就是看到是性影像就針對性影像那當然就是說因為其實我們現在這個相次啊增訂了這個文字其實我們研究剛剛就像我們參事所講的"},{"start":3002.421,"end":3004.242,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、社會福利及法制兩委員會報告併案審查"},{"start":3020.808,"end":3032.105,"text":"如果說我散布的個資其實是背叛就是兒童的話其實它就是違反個資法加兒權法那這已經有二分之一了那如果是依照38條的一項二項加重的話"},{"start":3034.895,"end":3058.532,"text":"就像我剛剛參事講的今天他散佈除非說他是同一個行為這樣不然的話你有經驗有散佈性影像然後後面再販賣格子那這樣子的話其實我們不太知道說為什麼後面販賣格子要跟隨著他賣的性影像的那個對對對就是其實我們不太知道說那個就是法理上所以這個部分"},{"start":3060.153,"end":3064.058,"text":"我只能說我這邊可以承諾就是說因為這一次因為委員有特別提醒我們這件事那以後我們就是在教育訓練的時候或者是在相關的業務座談我們就會提醒檢察官說"},{"start":3080.555,"end":3092.744,"text":"除了修正這個散佈性影像的部分還要去修正那個散佈那個個資的部分就是去查扣這一塊因為有時候辦案其實真的沒辦法一下想到那麼的多這樣那我們可能提醒他們這樣好來林委員好來先讓廳長講一下"},{"start":3098.688,"end":3112.453,"text":"委員我跟您報告一下就是我剛剛跟那個就是張市長有交換過一點意見就是現行法的第三項本來就有一個剛剛委員提到的不管他是意圖營利"},{"start":3113.753,"end":3117.474,"text":"蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文"},{"start":3142,"end":3164.116,"text":"的這樣一個性影像他其實就是代表個資那我剛剛第一次我提出來的看法就是說這個的販賣性影像或者是意圖盈利去做這些散布他本來就會同時去觸犯這個就是個資法所以個資他的法定刑度五年以下是比較低的但是為了保護兒少這邊刑度是比較高的"},{"start":3168.539,"end":3179.268,"text":"的確在實務上,就像朱副檢剛剛說的,可能在偵查中他著重的是那個散佈的這個行為,但是如果說他偵查中有查到他其實是像"},{"start":3180.549,"end":3181.67,"text":"蔡易餘等17人、委員蔡易餘等17人、委員"},{"start":3200.589,"end":3218.071,"text":"那所以如果再加上一個又要再因為各自把又再加重其性二分之一其實就會變成說他其實是同一個行為然後他其實並沒有另外一個新的一個太陽對所以我們才去做這樣一個就是法理上的一個就是意見的一個提供給大院參考以上謝謝"},{"start":3220.04,"end":3242.176,"text":"從剛剛各位說明,看起來以前也沒有特別注意各自這件事情,所以在判決的時候也沒有特別去考慮嗎?剛剛這樣說明,這是第一點,我的質疑。第二個,因為我覺得各自不是影像,因為它事實上是隨從就讀的學校,然後名稱什麼,名字通通一起去販賣的。"},{"start":3244.887,"end":3263.159,"text":"對當事人如果是單純只是影像要去辨別這個人有可能認識他看得到和我合併名字然後就讀學校然後他的一些相關的資訊一起販賣我覺得跟這影片一起販賣還是不太一樣的這是我第二點"},{"start":3263.759,"end":3278.228,"text":"第三點是 剛才講說我個人承諾我覺得今天如果是你個人承諾在這邊我有點擔心說那這個個人承諾下一次換另外一個人的時候就沒有辦法再去承諾所以如果"},{"start":3280.629,"end":3294.738,"text":"針對這一點假設有一些你們考慮到的問題那可不可以考量用附帶我同意附帶決議我覺得不能可能事實上是完全不說明因為過去我剛聽各位這樣說明的時候就有點感覺到過去原來都不考量的"},{"start":3295.558,"end":3295.698,"text":"因有個資跟沒個資還是不一樣。"},{"start":3321.308,"end":3323.269,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":3340.856,"end":3350.823,"text":"非常謝謝委員對這個部分給我們的一個提醒跟建議那如果是用附帶決議讓我們在教育訓練再加強的話我想這應該這是沒有問題的好那如果這樣子的話38條就維持原條文但是加一個附帶決議那就請法務部待會把這個附帶決議提出來好"},{"start":3368.109,"end":3390.289,"text":"三十八條維持現行條例。來,第四十五條之二。四十五條之二。在這個一百零四年,這個少性剝削防制條例一百零四年以前,其實對於這個本條例的加害人是有判刑確定後要有公佈姓名這一件事。但是在一百零四年修這一部法的時候呢,在這個"},{"start":3392.593,"end":3406.877,"text":"執政黨跟當時的執政黨跟這個這個在野黨也就是國民黨跟民進黨都有委員提案要刪除該條文的內容就是不要這個公佈姓名那同時也經過23讀大院23讀通過那所以現在要回復"},{"start":3412.759,"end":3439.297,"text":"是不是要請委員再斟酌這是第一個第二個說明就是在兒童及少年福利權益保障法裡頭對於對兒少為不當對待包括性剝削其實在97條就兒權法的97條有得公佈其姓名這件事那我想兩個說明就是過去有但是刪掉了"},{"start":3439.977,"end":3440.137,"text":"第五十一條"},{"start":3468.163,"end":3473.668,"text":"11條委員對加害人要做聲音治療、輔導或教育以及後續要做登記報告查訪我們現在增訂在第一項這個部分請委員參考對第二項有委員建議要把輔導教育的時數提升從4小時到5小時"},{"start":3488.844,"end":3499.969,"text":"提升從8小時到5小時那衛福部接受第二項的這個建議所以我們修正8小時到50小時以上好第51條的部分輔導教育增加為8小時到50小時那請問各位委員針對第51條還有沒有意見"},{"start":3520.953,"end":3523.508,"text":"好 如果沒有意見 那就按衛福部修正通過來 第55條"},{"start":3527.654,"end":3551.961,"text":"55條這邊有一個修正動議在這一次的第三項最後的第三條除第三條、第八條、第八條之一以及第47條後面漏了四個文字施行日期由行政院定之外自公佈日施行增加在47條後面增加施行日期以上"},{"start":3555.66,"end":3584.657,"text":"好 針對第55條衛福部所新修正的文字 大家有沒有意見好 沒有意見的話 那就按照衛福部修正版本通過那剛剛有保留第三條第三條剛剛是說它涉及到哪一條的修正51條51條有關所以如果51條那剛剛51條已經通過了是 那現在警政署對於這個文字應該就可以接受"},{"start":3585.965,"end":3586.986,"text":"警政署表示下意見"},{"start":3603.587,"end":3629.42,"text":"第三條的部分就是還有一個就是中央主管機關得自行或委由民間那議事處的意見是應該是用委託而不是用委由是不是應該是說委由也可以委由跟委託其實是都可以的所以我們在當初提案的時候是建議寫委由是"},{"start":3630.43,"end":3636.42,"text":"你們建議違有?是是但是那個要不要說明一下來你說明一下這個行政程序行政程序有第16條關於這個"},{"start":3647.32,"end":3665.673,"text":"民間團體跟個人的部分都是用委託這是統一法律的用詞而且我們在這個再生醫療雙法裡面本來要提違由後來都改成委託所以我們希望說還是用標準的法律用詞謝謝那法務部的意見呢"},{"start":3670.139,"end":3696.349,"text":"因為委托跟委由的確委托委任這定義的確是不一樣像剛剛議事這個主管說的那我們也如果說在整個條文裡面沒有重複性的話那我們是建議說是不是用委托的詞會比較好因為這個問題我之前我們在部會在跨部會的討論的時候我有提過但是好像是因為跟後面的詞句好像有點重疊我想再檢查一下是不是有重疊的問題"},{"start":3699.383,"end":3726.755,"text":"如果沒有重疊如果說整個問題可以處理的話那當然是用委託會比較好那如果是這樣的話是不是改成委託比較好好不好因為再生醫療法才剛修正通過如果那邊本來是唯有改委託那就這邊我們也是改成委託好"},{"start":3731.264,"end":3756.624,"text":"主席又有兩個附帶決議在針對第三條先處理完條文再處理附帶決議那如果第三條大家沒有意見的話就按照衛福部還有剛剛修正的文字通過那我們保留的條文六條都已經處理完畢現在處理附帶決議總共有三案"},{"start":3760.034,"end":3779.605,"text":"附帶決議,請警察機關應於本條例公布實施後半年內完成指定或設立專責單位建立資料庫之事宜,並利用該資料庫協助犯罪偵查,以及透過數位鑑識比對潛在被害人。提案人委員林月琴、王振旭"},{"start":3780.385,"end":3797.056,"text":"第二案,為確保散佈兒少性影像之違法境外平台網站得以有效封網,數位發展部應全力協調教育部、通傳會、整合限制接取封網單位,包含網際網路接取服務提供者、學術網路、財團法人台灣網路資訊中心、電信業者、DNS業者、"},{"start":3802.58,"end":3825.796,"text":"要求限制接取封網單位,落實執行《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例限制接取規定》,避免我國民眾於封網後仍能看到違法境外平台之兒少性影像。另請數位發展部與兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正公布施行後半年內,將限制接取執行機構落實情形,以書面報告"},{"start":3826.877,"end":3847.592,"text":"以書面報告含報立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員林月琴、王振旭第三案為立衛生福利部落實執行兒少性剝削防制條例第三條、第八條有關主動巡查兒少性影像及中央主管機關辦理兒少性影像移除下架業務行政院人事行政總署"},{"start":3848.573,"end":3866.549,"text":"主計總處應全力協助衛福部增列預算及人力源額以因應上述新增法定業務提案人委員林月琴、王振旭宣讀完畢好我們現在處理附帶決議先討論第一案請問第一案這個警政署有沒有意見好來請"},{"start":3869.862,"end":3888.1,"text":"主席、還有各委員、警政署、刑事局這邊報告因為有兩個附帶決議基本上有部分是相同我這邊也先一併做說明在第一項的附帶決議裡面已經我們在第二條第一項三款要建立這次撤戶"},{"start":3890.793,"end":3912.563,"text":"決議裏面要去監視比對潛在被害人的部分在上次的黨團協商的時候我們已經報告就是說目前我們針對這些可能還殘存在網路的這些的可能兒少的這些性影像的部分我們光從影像是沒辦法去的去辨識出他的身份"},{"start":3913.403,"end":3926.152,"text":"我們目前在建立這個資料庫是針對已知被害人的部分去以雜湊詞去做相關可能仍存在這個網路世界的影像但是對於"},{"start":3928.217,"end":3955.031,"text":"除了已知被害人以外目前可能後來後續被發現的這些可能是偶像的這些被害人的影像我們並沒有辦法單純從影像就去知道這個人這如同就是說我們現在警察機關我們很多入口監測器我們在偵辦嫌犯的時候我們會調閱那我們可能會拍攝到嫌犯的影像但我們並沒有辦法從這影像就知道這個嫌犯的身份是什麼我們必須透過各種偵查的技術"},{"start":3956.112,"end":3959.58,"text":"才能去發見這個嫌犯是什麼人。所以我們"},{"start":3961.98,"end":3988.05,"text":"不五錢的這個技術上並不可行而且如果你真的要建立這個影像的話你可能還要龐大的一個資料庫包含可能全民的一個影像資料庫才能去做這個比對所以建立在附帶決議的部分的潛在這兩字我們把它改成已知或是說這兩個文字拿掉這才是我們目前上真正可行的部分以上報告"},{"start":3990.054,"end":4015.982,"text":"你說要修正,阿淺再兩個字拿掉,比對被害人是,那報告主席我可以另外針對另外一個附帶決議也是林業群委員所提出來在這個資料另外一份有相近的可以一併報告嗎?好,可以來另外一份附帶決議就是有鑑於食物經驗常見被害人不願報案的這個提案今天的第一案已經抽回了"},{"start":4019.073,"end":4024.469,"text":"你剛剛只報告三案。所以這一案已經抽回了?是。"},{"start":4030.743,"end":4047.414,"text":"本條例公布實施後半年內完成指定。本條例實施之後,依我們現在新修訂的修正條文,必須要訂定管理使用辦法。相關辦法的訂定,法制程序基本上都要花費一定時間。"},{"start":4049.395,"end":4071.678,"text":"原則上像過去我們在修正原名槍支的使用辦法就使用了大概兩年的時間那所有法制作業有一定包含他要訂定還要公告所以建議在整個文字上我們應該是要管理使用辦法有訂定出來之後才可以有後續的一個操作使用的問題所以建議在"},{"start":4072.762,"end":4090.257,"text":"文字的第四行本條例公佈實施定定管理增加幾個字增加八個字定定管理使用辦法後因為一定要先有辦法才有辦法去做後續的一個操作那因為整個還牽涉到整個"},{"start":4091.491,"end":4111.21,"text":"監事資料庫的一個建立他還有相關的一個經費所以建立我們半年把它改成一年這是我們行政機關在目前積極下可能行的一個範圍最後一段文字的潛在被害人也建立把潛在這兩個字把它拿掉以上好謝謝說明那委員他們意見好來林委員"},{"start":4118.928,"end":4145.777,"text":"想先釐清一下這個本條例公布時是半年內要去希望你可以把這些開始利用這些資料剛剛講是說辦法還要一年那這個我比較不同不是這麼同意這是第一個第二個本來為什麼寫潛在被害人因為有時候這個影像這一次沒有辦法拿到可是我有這個影像查不出來"},{"start":4146.497,"end":4164.622,"text":"那他是不是下一次的潛在被害人是嗎那你如果後續假設又有拿到影像的時候去比對的時候我們的那個賀許職去比對說他就是不能是說那已經被害人都知道了那還要留這個做什麼用所以我才會寫潛在被害人所以這個我比較不同意以上"},{"start":4165.502,"end":4183.392,"text":"那個跟委員報告我了解我的意思就是說或許過去我們偵辦中有某些的這些影像當時還未知他的悲哀人是什麼人那我後續可能偵辦之後有相關的悲哀人之後那我要去比對過去取得的這些"},{"start":4184.312,"end":4210.271,"text":"當時無法辨識的被害人我要把他再找出來那這部分基本上我們可行但是就文字上的認知的時候我們潛在這兩個字可能會是未來新的陌生的部分這目前當然跟委員報告就是說我目前的相關技術跟後續的部分並技術上不可行所以委員所提的部分其實我們警察機關本來就會譬如說我現在偵辦一個新的案件然後"},{"start":4211.872,"end":4231.193,"text":"有同樣的已經找到被害人那要再去跟過去的這些資料庫當時還沒找到被害人不會用雜誌去比對這部分我們一定都會去做這沒有問題但是他潛在這個用詞可能會太過廣泛變成是未來的這些陌生的這部分所以說"},{"start":4232.574,"end":4247.142,"text":"這這個用詞我們建議自我說可以不要用這樣來使用但委員所要求的部分我們未來是會去做因為我們在做犯罪偵查的時候我們會用雜作組跟我們資料庫去做比對而這部分是沒有問題的另外一個剛剛"},{"start":4248.752,"end":4274.885,"text":"半年一年的這件事情可不可以解釋一下那個跟委員說明說我們因為新修法的部分要我們去訂定管理使用辦法這管理使用辦法的法制作業就要相當耗費時間因為我要這是從無到有再來就是說它的相關法制作業光比如說像我們列正部的法制單位公告經過它除了條文修正之後它公告就必須要兩個月"},{"start":4276.238,"end":4297.324,"text":"所以這個有一定的時程最後這個辦法要必須到行政院再做公告所以說這整個要我們直接條例實施後半年內基本上你沒有辦法是很難去達成你後續要去使用所以我們會建議說增加8個文字的訂定管理使用辦法後"},{"start":4298.288,"end":4325.965,"text":"因為一定要先完成前端的法制作業才可以去做後面的行政的執行跟操作,包含資料庫的一個建立。因為資料庫的建立也需要相關機會我們要編列,所以同時我們建立是說是否可以這個半年,除了增加文資以外,半年改為一年,我們這樣當然我們會盡快去做,什麼時候做得到我們就會什麼時候去把它完成。"},{"start":4326.727,"end":4343.84,"text":"所以你是講條例實施後的一年內嗎?不是,條例實施、定定管理使用辦法後,因為…辦法後還要再一年的時間,我覺得真的太長了,因為我不知道你辦法又定個半年,然後如果這個又一年的話,那不是一年半?"},{"start":4345.34,"end":4368.369,"text":"這是因為行政程序上有一定他要操作的我會盡快去完成只是一年我覺得每次用個人承諾這些東西盡快那我也不知道你盡快可是你現在如果定了給你一年時間你搞不好就是走到結果就花了一年半的時間如果我們的政府體系這麼緩慢的話有時候緩不及急真的也沒有辦法救助更多的受害人這是第一個"},{"start":4368.939,"end":4397.897,"text":"第二我還是不同意那個把錢再拿掉還有另外一個就是說如果這個條例公佈後一年內我同意不要半年我就OK可是如果你又說要辦法然後又要再一年那真的搞不好拖個搞不好是兩年不是一年半那包委員是不是因為一定要有辦法辦法一定沒有通過是沒辦法去做後續的操作了啦預估辦法大概要多久嘛否則那就辦法之後的半年內我同意"},{"start":4403.291,"end":4406.496,"text":"建議增加文字定定管理使用辦法後半年內。"},{"start":4414.788,"end":4434.546,"text":"對過去影像的潛在的話是 如果你本來是說比對被害人那就已經是被害人所以 呃 剛 鄭旭委員有建議說那用可能 因為我認為不要告訴我說你們一定會去做我覺得這種承諾我實在是不太能在這邊去現場知道說欸 我們一定會去做那到底什麼"},{"start":4435.347,"end":4456.268,"text":"佛徹過去為什麼不去做所以我說為什麼我加這個字眼是因為賀許子留下來事實上是可能未來有發生這種因為這次查我還是要再三強調這次查不到的時候下次賀許子去對的時候那個不會是現在存在的被害人那可能我們會去找到從這個影像去找到過去對"},{"start":4457.851,"end":4483.432,"text":"是 所以我才會希望說你用潛在可是否則你要用什麼字眼來說服我可是如果單純指向被害人的話我是不同意的或許可以用可能被害人因為潛在我們會講未來的那改成可能我們應該是可以做得到的在文字上可能會比較可以兩點 第一個是不是在辦法後的半年內或者是就是這個條例實施後的一年內這是一件事情第二個就是改成"},{"start":4483.952,"end":4486.154,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":4512.815,"end":4513.476,"text":"若沒有意見,復待決議通過。"},{"start":4519.642,"end":4542.117,"text":"有異見,是不是?第二案,好,來,請說明報告主席跟各位委員那世衛發展部針對附帶決議第二案有兩點建議第一點的建議是文字的調整也就是說這個附帶決議內容裡面出現蜂網的這個文字建議用限制階級來替代"},{"start":4543.138,"end":4562.097,"text":"第一行的最後兩個字第二行的最後兩個字第四行也是一樣最後兩個字還有第六行的第四個字第四個字跟第五個字這是第一個文字修正建議那第二點的建議是數位發展部依照我們已經通過了草案八條之一"},{"start":4563.098,"end":4590.818,"text":"那對於所謂限制階級協助限制階級主管機關來執行這件事情的除了數位發展部以外還有教育部、通常會還有法務主管機關跟警政的主管機關所以要求就是說我們只是一個協助機關之一所以由我們來做一個書面報告的一個函報執行結果適不適當建議可以再考量一下以上"},{"start":4596.397,"end":4621.28,"text":"你後面的那個意見聽起來有點模糊那要不然要怎麼修改就是所有的單位都列出來報告主席因為基本上我們是協助這些單位是在協助主管機關來執行所以到底是應該是把主管機關由主管機關來做書面報告或者是由協助機關來做書面報告可以再考量一下以上"},{"start":4624.529,"end":4648.55,"text":"主席好來 林委員第一個我同意用那個限制擷取第二個這邊為什麼會這樣子寫是因為我這邊我覺得單純我們要看到的只是限制擷取那現在因為已經是在你們的工作所以我們沒有特別要去要求因為對於受害人最大的影響是在趕快事實上是封網嘛用比較單純之言"},{"start":4651.414,"end":4653.384,"text":"如果那樣的話那是不是就是"},{"start":4654.386,"end":4682.151,"text":"有你們因為限制擷取的這個工作是你們在做嗎我沒有要求其他的我只要看的是這個東西因為那個影響自身啊所以我只要看這個東西的話報告林委其實是我們督導Link就是網資中心來做一個處理但是分網這件事情除了網際網路接取服務提供者還有協助網路還有一些其他的電信業者還有DNS等等所以其實相關的業者很多為什麼協助機關會列這麼多"},{"start":4696.274,"end":4705.136,"text":"陳儒主席講你們有沒有什麼字眼上是要把全部的部分列上去嗎你們希望可以怎麼修正呢就講你的意見"},{"start":4711.205,"end":4735.497,"text":"我自己的看法是說就是說因為基本上這是主管機關有下達一個限制接取的一個命令那命令了以後相關的不管是所謂的電信業者或者是一些網路的接取服務提供者協助網路等等他們大家就一起來做一些就是說白名單黑名單的一個更新頭部來完成這件事情那這只是一個執行面的事情"},{"start":4736.477,"end":4738.838,"text":"蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、"},{"start":4764.366,"end":4781.054,"text":"因為就像剛才講的事實上是委外用那個台灣NIC來做那可是我們講說你還是他事實上財團法人這個也是你們附屬的所以本來還是希望說可不可以這個限制擷取的執行的狀況是什麼"},{"start":4783.479,"end":4808.119,"text":"因為我剛剛提過這個很自為關鍵到底有沒有馬上進行去封網因為會影響比較深所以我們想說而且只有這個半年內先讓我們了解一下落實狀況又不是未來持續要這樣子做所以我就不懂是說我想我們的衛環因為訂了這個法很關心的是因為過去數位發展部沒有放進來"},{"start":4809.58,"end":4829.749,"text":"那其他的部會已經有運作過了那後來也是大家針對於限制擷取這件事情很看重那我們也只有要求一次這樣子半年內把他送進來看那個資訊才讓我們未還的委員可以更知道下一次針對諮詢的時候也可以更明確的知道說有沒有有些東西還要push政府可以做得更好"},{"start":4830.629,"end":4847.331,"text":"所以才會把它列進去我不是每半年要每一個半年都要這個執行的落實的情形到底讓我們知道否則上次也是衛福部請問給你們之後事實上你們可以做到沒有馬上馬上有效封網啊等到要拿到文"},{"start":4847.751,"end":4862.015,"text":"那我們這樣子同時也可以看到如果你有沒有封網因為要等衛福部的那個公文啊現在你如果可以做你們是不是趕快做就讓傷害可以下降到最低啊那我們先看那個半年內的狀況是什麼來我們請市長"},{"start":4865,"end":4889.76,"text":"那這個附帶決議建議就是第一項重點放在整合是沒有問題那第二項我也理解數位發展部的長官他在意的部分是不是可以在那個另請數位發展部後面加配合衛生福利部與兒少性剝削防制後面這樣的一個文字就配合衛生福利部這樣是不是比較可行"},{"start":4894.557,"end":4909.967,"text":"跟主席跟林委員報告剛剛同仁有提醒我我們能夠提供的就只有NINK的相關資料所以其他的資料我們就是說執行的情形我們可能沒有大概是這樣的情況不是我們不願意做是事實上我們的資料是有限的"},{"start":4913.848,"end":4925.574,"text":"如果剛剛保護司司長講的就是配合衛福部因為我們想知道那半年執行狀況才有辦法供衛環委員去檢討要不要進一步再做些什麼事按照衛福部這樣修正文字這樣子是不是在執行上就是你們是配合的角色嗎"},{"start":4939.565,"end":4953.174,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、社會福利及法制兩委員會報告併案審查:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案：一、社會福利及法制兩委員立法院朝野黨團協商：一、社會福利及法制兩委員立法院朝野黨團協商：一、社會福利及法制兩委員立法院朝野黨團協商：一、社會福利及法制兩委員立法院朝野黨團協商：一、社會福利及法制兩委員立法院朝野黨團協商：一、"},{"start":4961.892,"end":4978.159,"text":"報告主席,主計總署針對附帶決議第三案建議修正文字按照我們現行通過的修正草案第三條有明定中央主管機關應獨立編列預算、辦理兒童及少年性剝削防制業務"},{"start":4979.179,"end":4999.478,"text":"那另外按照我們預算籌編的精神及規定呢不會面對新增的業務還是優先在行政院核定的概算額度內來編列那麼如果有不足的話可以循程序提高額度外的需求因此這裡有的文字呢建議後段"},{"start":5000.259,"end":5010.609,"text":"主計總署應全力協助衛福部增列預算這個部分可以修正為主計總署應協助衛福部編列預算以上沒有增列是編列"},{"start":5024.298,"end":5034.238,"text":"按照我們現在通過的第三條條文其實WIFI部本來就應該按照新通過的條文去配置該有的預算"},{"start":5036.38,"end":5062.278,"text":"那些增列有什麼問題嗎?應該也沒有問題啊因為它如果配合現行的條文它就是會增列預算啊你們就是送上去你們不要砍就好了跟主席報告主要就是說的確按照我們預算籌編的精神呢不會它它該增列就要增列那就是說它送上來的時候我們當然在額度那邊我們都"},{"start":5063.258,"end":5091.363,"text":"原則上不會去砍部會的預算那只是說這樣的文字看起來會是似乎這樣的條例通過以後主計總署就要額度外來增列相關的預算所以可能我們文字上避免誤解我們是建議就是我們來協助衛福部編列預算那這個協助當然就包括衛福部在額度內編列的部分我們會來優先支持以上"},{"start":5093.025,"end":5114.434,"text":"那個衛福部表示一下意見尊重竹種的建議所以那個文字修正你們同意是不是可以好沒有意見好衛福部沒有意見委員沒有意見好那就按照剛剛修正的文字通過好來第四案附帶決議第四案對不起"},{"start":5123.834,"end":5145.188,"text":"第三十八條附帶決議,鑒於創意私房觸感空間等非法論壇,除販賣兒少性剝削影像外,常有販賣兒少被害人各自之情形,對於兒少身心危害甚具,原請法務部對檢察官強化相關教育訓練,以提升對兒少權益的保護。提案人委員林月琴宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5147.926,"end":5169.193,"text":"請法務部針對這個提案表現非常感謝委員剛剛我們也有就這個附帶決議有先前的一個討論但是看到那個決議的文字我想是不是這樣因為強化社會這個保護兒少的權益的意識還有對各自的重視這個應該是要有全民的共識才會有全面性的成效"},{"start":5169.813,"end":5198.084,"text":"那如果單單是法務部或者是檢察官我想這個是不夠這個沒有辦法盡全功的所以這個決議我們是不是建議應該是要擴大相關權責機關的教育訓練促請大家一起努力來提升兒少權益的保護因為如果只是單單就檢察官可能我想這個效果會有限那建議是不是在這個文字上面可以有相關的單位比如說法官的部分那個"},{"start":5199.786,"end":5228.419,"text":"調查的警察機關警政單位是不是應該也是一併放在這個教育訓練強化的一個部分以上好那個建議的文字是原請就是第三行原請司法院頓號法務部頓號警政看是警政單位還是警政署來強化相關教育訓練這樣是不是可行就是相關的人員也都應該要訓練就是"},{"start":5235.869,"end":5248.242,"text":"警政署、還是警政機關?警政署沒意見。如果是司法機關、檢察機關、警政機關。教育訓練。"},{"start":5266.373,"end":5283.67,"text":"剛剛一開始我們說司法院不曉得司法院有沒有意見喔司法院法務部警政署用我會建議就是說先從行政機關因為案發在第一線嘛對其實行政機關其實應該是司法警察機關"},{"start":5285.091,"end":5300.742,"text":"法務部、司法院。因為司法院法院是在最後端。舉例來講,剛剛魏警員最擔心的評價不足的問題,必須要靠第一線警察的修正,才有辦法查明他到底有沒有販賣。"},{"start":5301.783,"end":5304.684,"text":"等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":5329.614,"end":5354.263,"text":"那大概都要包括那比如說我覺得其他的行政機關其實包含其他的比如說像NCC這些相關協助衛福部的也大概都有對於這個兒少性剝削的一個基本的素養其實才是夠的那應該是一個我們的政府機關大概都應該要有這樣的一個基本的素養以上那法務部來"},{"start":5355.682,"end":5384.119,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個第五條已經通過的第五條的最後一項其實我們是這個決議是不是剛好可以配合這個最後這一項的文字它的最後一項文字是中央警政主管機關、中央法務主管機關及司法院應適時辦理兒童及少年性剝削防制教育訓練以充實調查、偵查或審理兒童及少年性剝削案件之司法警察、司法警察官、檢察事務官、檢察官或法官之辦案專業素養"},{"start":5385.16,"end":5407.598,"text":"那這樣我們決議剛好可以配合這個第五條的最後一項的文字那也比較全面性那以上提供給委員們參考好那我想是不是就按照剛剛王三世所建議的這個文字修正通過好不好還有意見嗎來請我確認一下只是後邊有些改變因為我們我這邊最重要的就是個資的這個狀況要讓"},{"start":5410.82,"end":5425.188,"text":"判的時候要能夠很確定所以前面文字保留只是後邊增加了其他行政機關一直到我們的司法院的這邊對於相關人員的訓練是這樣嗎想說再確認一下"},{"start":5431.058,"end":5456.057,"text":"主席我建議就是原請司法相關機關落實本條例第五條相關規定以提升對兒少權益的保護這樣把那個原來寫說原請法務部這樣太針對性的部分把它換成用落實第五條的相關規定"},{"start":5458.803,"end":5480.518,"text":"那第五條上面就寫第五條最後一項相關規定應該就可以可以接的起來第四項嗎"},{"start":5486.86,"end":5515.14,"text":"那法務部針對剛剛司長這樣的建議這樣的文字有沒有意見就第五條第四項約情委員的意思是要強調那個個資的部分那是不是這個文字文字因為前面這個決議的文字有上有販賣兒少被害人個資之情形這個部分委員是不是覺得夠了還是我們要再多一句什麼跟個資有關的文字嗎"},{"start":5521.081,"end":5538.716,"text":"對對我的意思就是除了這樣的文字我們還要再加強嗎?如果是這樣就夠的話我們是建議就是照剛剛張司長的意見我們就把那個落實第五條第四項的強化相關教育訓練的規定把它放進來我想這樣應該是很清楚"},{"start":5539.741,"end":5549.73,"text":"好,那另外還有沒有意見?沒有意見,同意。好,沒有意見,那我們就按照剛剛張司長建議的修正文字通過。好,第四案通過。好,那我們現在協商的條文跟附帶決議都已經處理完畢。"},{"start":5563.137,"end":5586.68,"text":"條次及援引條次、授權議事人員調整。立法說明如有需要補充或調整部分,授權行政機關處理。其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。本案協商會議到此結束。稍後我們休息五分鐘,繼續協商全民健康保險法。謝謝大家。"},{"start":5588.117,"end":5592.995,"text":"那跟全民健康保險法無關的相關人員就可以先行離席。謝謝。"},{"start":6076.581,"end":6103.99,"text":"好,我們接下來召開關於全民健康保險法修正草案第二次的黨團協商那今天要併案協商的全民健康保險法第62條修正草案共計五案第一個已經併案審查完略的總共有三案第二逕付二讀的有兩案那我們現在就開始協商好,那這個因為"},{"start":6106.909,"end":6131.924,"text":"部長之前我們在討論的時候其實是去國外開會參加WHA大會所以我們等你回來之後我們今天再召開一次協商是不是部長要先跟大家講一下到目前為止衛福部對於第62條修正草案的看法你們是不是已經同意了"},{"start":6132.737,"end":6159.808,"text":"這個健保點值1.1元這樣子來我們先請部長說明一下好不好可以可以你這個案子你還沒有完整說明過讓你報告一下謝謝主席朝野給我這個機會跟大家報告也抱歉上次協商到WHA跟我們陳欣慧委員、王正熙委員都在一起在那邊"},{"start":6161.799,"end":6189.154,"text":"把我們台灣的醫療成就展示國際也感謝大家關心健保的一個永續有關於健保法第62條修法保障點子一案因為其中涉及健保合理支付、保障醫護收入、穩定點子等這都是本部非常重視的議題我想也是大家所重視的議題"},{"start":6191.023,"end":6206.011,"text":"因此合理的點子本部跟各委員、各目標都是一致的啦那前面健保實行已經28年健保總額支付制度實行也22年當時總額支付制度規劃及推動的背景"},{"start":6207.804,"end":6230.803,"text":"希望透過前瞻性協商與分配來引導醫療服務的提供並與醫界共同分擔財務風險,合理控制醫療費用,然後現今面對新醫療科技發展及人口老化等挑戰,現行的總額支出制度在收入面、支出面都必須要再精進改革,"},{"start":6231.463,"end":6250.259,"text":"才能促進醫療體系健全的發展,若使健保永續經營。那有關於修正健保法第262條將現行健保總額支付制度由支出上限制改為支出目標制然後前面保障點值為每點0.9元或每點1元"},{"start":6255.514,"end":6262.961,"text":"來推估113年須增加預算約705億元及1,155億元,應涉及整體政府預算財務規劃與預算,時需審慎研議與策策,如以公務預算之應,將大幅增加政府財務負擔,尚需行政院"},{"start":6281.024,"end":6298.636,"text":"主計總署依預算法及財務收支劃分法規劃、確認、時有經費。如有健保收入來支應,安全準備114年一次用盡,113年底急需調整費率,增加民眾的負擔。"},{"start":6299.693,"end":6315.864,"text":"那為其實行政部門、新政府也不停的在努力所以在過去幾個月到包括還沒上任開始就已經為了達到健康台灣健保永續的經營也辦了全國性的六場健康台灣論壇"},{"start":6317.565,"end":6331.178,"text":"這是在賴總統的指示之下具體的兩千多位醫界的精英領據了優化醫療環境確保全民健康十大策略這十大策略其實都是相當具體"},{"start":6332.921,"end":6352.307,"text":"當然不敢講說百分之百周前,但是都是重要的主題。第一,當然要擴大健保財務來源,兼顧社會公平。第二,提升健保效力,抑制不必要支出。第三,改革總和制度,穩定醫療服務點值。第四,整合藝網保健的資源,"},{"start":6354.825,"end":6380.275,"text":"銜接長照體系。第五,改善醫療職業環境,穩定人力供給。第六,檢討健保藥品政策,扶持國內製藥產業。第七,檢討商業保險制度,強化民眾醫療保障。第八,加強醫療資訊升級,智慧醫療服務轉型。第九,優化醫事人員育才及留才的工作條件。"},{"start":6381.835,"end":6408.761,"text":"第十優化評鑑的工作。我想這幾個月所有行政部門包括衛福部還有行政部門其實都針對這相關的議題不但有的組織而且進行一種規劃,我想這個應該跟各位委員先進報告。那另外為了考慮修法來保障點子這個財源提稅,對保障點子"},{"start":6410.097,"end":6433.693,"text":"另外考量修法要來保障點子的裁員,尤其不確定性。本部委就收支議題、通盤檢討、積極研擬各項改革措施,藉以逐步達到穩定點子的目標。第一,在收入面方面,我們積極規劃多元化的財務方案,包括擴大保險會計,讓我們的基期能夠擴大。"},{"start":6437.911,"end":6445.938,"text":"這個說實在才是醫療單位能夠比較重要的啦那我們另外排除非健保法規定的福利項目將會"},{"start":6448.052,"end":6476.117,"text":"不要與政府負擔36%以外不要塞在這個這個大概可以那個節省的應該有超過100億那爭取公務預算預助健保這當然就是說有些計畫其實它是公務費啦相關的那本來應該另外在公務預算來編譯過去有一些的把它弄在健保裡面這個部分"},{"start":6476.97,"end":6500.661,"text":"也會處理。當然我們應該爭取公務預算來益助健保當然我們要檢討保險費率的上限並嚴厲修正相關的法規有相關的法規我們才會進行以上的事情這個都要請未來大家支持如簽名健康保險基金收租保管"},{"start":6501.437,"end":6510.765,"text":"及應用辦法,有些未來在中程長程的時候可能需要修法。在支出的面我們當然會設定,這也是賴總統的政見,設立癌藥基金並爭取以公務預算撥補,這個已經確定沒有問題,應該很快就可以來實施。"},{"start":6523.752,"end":6548.861,"text":"也研議將公共衛生性質的改善,改以公務預算支出。那在健保的改革,絕對要配合醫療政策獲得體系的改革。所以我們要落實推動分級醫療加疫制度,推動適當的DRD制度,優先保障住院及集中症照護。我想集中症是重中之重。"},{"start":6550.135,"end":6563.736,"text":"這個一定要保護好,確保山地離島資源不足地區之所入之點子,因為這也是我們台灣全民金錢是謀換的一個必須要做到的事情,當然我們要落實意志,"},{"start":6564.958,"end":6585.76,"text":"支援不當耗用及重複用藥檢查、檢驗、管理等措施以提升支援配置的效益、長期策略並將包含支付制度的改革、藥效差方面的處理。感謝大院各委員對健保政策與醫療環境之關心並提出"},{"start":6586.76,"end":6600.547,"text":"諸多指點及監督本部及健保署將與各委員共同努力朝穩定健保電池、保障醫護人員合理待遇、總而適度地成長醫療體系漸層發展及健保永續經營的目標前進,並請各位委員繼續予以支出。"},{"start":6609.039,"end":6616.272,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明那接下來我們就請委員發言那我們是不是先請陳金輝委員"},{"start":6627.213,"end":6651.471,"text":"各位委員、同事還有各位部長、官員、主席大家早安我是用我僅存的聲音為醫護人員發聲今天其實我做了一些手板所以也希望大家可以看一下剛剛部長有提到說我們的確是應該要增加公共投資所以我現在是要跟部長表達我們距離現實有多遙遠"},{"start":6653.032,"end":6681.574,"text":"今年我們跟王振旭委員、江副院長一起去洛桑管理學院洛桑管理學院把他近20年來的報告都拿出來給我們看其實我們是感到蠻驕傲的因為台灣在世界競爭力一直在6到8名之間可是呢他也問我們說哇你們的這個醫療基礎建設的投資啊公部門的投資居然都是24到26名敬佩莫作"},{"start":6682.395,"end":6709.126,"text":"非常地慘所以我是聽了很傷心是因為台灣的醫護人員、醫事人員是用全球24到26名的資源可是我們做到第一名的醫療水平以至於我們去WHA的時候有這麼多醫生問我們認不認識這個名醫那個名醫想要下次找他們來演講講一下他們的手術"},{"start":6710.166,"end":6732.614,"text":"所以剛剛部長講得非常好其實我們有重複的用藥重複的檢查這個我昨天總諮詢都有諮詢過所以又加上比如說利用AI的這樣導入我用AI也可以諮詢所以基本上很多醫務人員最簡單的慢性病衛教也可以轉往許多科技上的輔助還有"},{"start":6733.294,"end":6758.605,"text":"如果部長可以把這些健檢的資料統一的話其實你也不會做出不夠精準的慢性病的這些研究以至於你未來的資源配置又不平均嘛好所以呢今天為什麼我們希望可以一點醫源是因為大家也要救病人以外還要救醫護醫護現在動脈已經被砍斷了動脈已經被砍斷了所以一直在流血"},{"start":6763.327,"end":6780.585,"text":"這個流血除了1.1元馬上注入就像我們現在缺的生理鹹水一樣除了馬上滴進去為什麼一個病人來急診休克的時候我們要馬上打生理鹹水因為你要趕快補進來我們現在是在止損我們是在救醫護"},{"start":6782.626,"end":6809.375,"text":"這個是昨天急診長庚的護理師我很喜歡看一個版叫做靠杯護理師他裡面充滿了各種他們把他們人生最痛苦的事寫成笑話所以你是一邊哭一邊看現在急診長庚的帶床數已經241帶加護病房帶加護病房就是已經即將在生命危急喔是5這個是醫學中心喔"},{"start":6811.018,"end":6817.264,"text":"大家可以想像區域醫院跟地區醫院嗎?上禮拜,亞東醫院的急診科醫師"},{"start":6818.973,"end":6841.323,"text":"他PO出了一張照片他說他們護理長久以來沒辦法排班所以那天小夜只有兩個人他一個醫生結果來了兩個O卡O卡就是到院前就死亡的年輕人除了這兩個O卡以外還有無數個心肌梗塞的糖尿病的緊急要處理要插管的"},{"start":6842.637,"end":6866.188,"text":"他們的leader馬上到別的單位去找一個另外一個單位的護理師還有實習生來但是這個是好命啊這兩個OCA的人是上帝在眷顧他們啊如果其他單位也很忙呢他們那天完全沒有辦法應付可是他們達成了臨死亡率這不是要我們讓他拍拍手他其實是很感嘆"},{"start":6867.148,"end":6892.965,"text":"很感嘆很感嘆他的意思是說他為什麼今天會拍這張照片是因為他不知道五年後他跟他現在一起奮鬥的人還在不在這樣子的現場因為他們遠遠知道說他們是用美國醫療十分之一的人力三分之一到四分之一的薪水可能Perform的比美國人還要好"},{"start":6894.246,"end":6923.386,"text":"這個是長期20年以來的狀況那你知道靠北護理師在這個群組說什麼嗎靠北護理師在這個群組說哈 這樣也要PO這是我們每天的常態這已經是北部天龍國的醫學中心會講的事情是他們的常態他們的班表現在已經亂七八糟生理時鐘完全被打斷所以呢他如果遇到育兒育嬰的需求"},{"start":6924.006,"end":6924.987,"text":"等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":6939.341,"end":6962.331,"text":"沒有人悔,所有的護理師、第一首選、空服員、業務等等的他們已經沒有辦法忍受這樣子的生活所以我們今天一點一點不是我們在這邊要排擠到別人的預算而是這個是長期以來大家都應得的只是要還給我們而已現在到底還有"},{"start":6963.631,"end":6967.395,"text":"20年前大家想珍奶一杯多少錢?25到50,10年前大概50,現在有時候60、80,雞排也是啊,80到100,可是醫護人員的點值過去20年、30年"},{"start":6979.365,"end":6993.115,"text":"隨著通膨完全沒有改變完全沒有改變之下還在近幾年一一被打折所以我們是跟這個現實物價的世界是越脫離越遙遠我相信沒有一個"},{"start":6994.696,"end":7022.367,"text":"這個醫院或者是基層診所的經營者不想留財啊所以上次大家也都承諾了只要點職一住進來的話第一步馬上幫醫護人員加薪現在呢大家去看有賺錢的醫院仔細看誰誰賺錢有開停車場的有開美食街的還有自己做投資的就這三種你覺得每一家都有辦法做到嗎基層診所是一間一間的關啊"},{"start":7023.968,"end":7036.239,"text":"所以我希望衛福部部長就跟我們一起站在一起跟家人一樣我們要爭取自己應得的這個已經是長秋以來我們沒有被平等的對待"},{"start":7038.03,"end":7062.642,"text":"不要說破壞國家的財政你看洛桑管理學院這張圖你就知道我們現在面臨小子化、高齡化你本就一定要投資的公部門的基金、預算我們遠遠不如其他世界上最先進的這些國家所以這個本來就是我們一直都要檢討的才對"},{"start":7064.543,"end":7089.599,"text":"所以本席在這邊也非常希望委員們、官員們可以多多鼓勵我們的醫護人員繼續留在他們的崗位因為我其實與其說健保的財務會不會倒我現在最擔心的是醫護先垮是不是醫護先垮會遠遠的提早發生在健保財政先垮的前面因為"},{"start":7090.8,"end":7115.408,"text":"新疆按摩比腳底按摩便宜通血管比通水管還便宜所以目前這樣子我只是希望說大家可以馬上幫他們打生理鹹水至少讓他們撐住不要休克然後其他的改革我們可以繼續一起慢慢來研擬就如同昨天總質詢跟部長一起分享的心得一樣謝謝大家"},{"start":7117.367,"end":7127.004,"text":"好謝謝金輝委員那那個剛剛是趙志偉先舉手再來蘇星權委再王振旭委員來請都可以都可以"},{"start":7130.389,"end":7154.819,"text":"謝謝主席邱部長其實這個健保的問題已經累積了數十年了那您剛好上任了其實是我個人認為其實是你要概括承受啦概括承受就是說辛苦啦我個人認為健保現在已經因為種種的包括投資不足已經有點變成那個巨大怪獸那但是我們也不能都不處理"},{"start":7155.879,"end":7157.04,"text":"等19人等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":7174.149,"end":7202.251,"text":"論服務量來拒籌那這個當然是一個要檢討的部分那但是現在我們在我們本黨民眾黨沒有提出任何點值的方案但是因為很多總統候選人就是包括賴總統都沒有提出當時說希望能夠提高這個點值所以這個我們覺得要有一些配套措施但是我今天當然沒有看到很具體的衛福部有一些這個配套措施那個配套措施我也同意"},{"start":7202.651,"end":7203.832,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":7231.013,"end":7254.446,"text":"建保典值的部分當然不同的層級的醫院它有不同的任務我理解它的典值它這個幾乎也會不一樣但是其中一點當然今天可能不會是要處理的但是我在質詢之前質詢也是提到您剛剛提到分級醫療您是出身家醫科醫師您應該最重視的就是一個分級醫療但是台灣整個醫院是往道的方向去走"},{"start":7255.967,"end":7266.775,"text":"已經過度了你還要繼續增加但我所謂的你就是這個醫院評鑑又增加的這個醫學中心所以台北分區我如果去看整個點數的分佈台北分區其實是最嚴重的"},{"start":7271.078,"end":7298.821,"text":"但是這個嚴重是誰倒成的?醫院一直蓋大樓然後這個醫院評鑑也一直同意他們成為醫學中心嘛所以其實大概我看這個點數的分佈其實在各區會是不一樣的那這是第一點那要不要怎麼有優先次序來處理有沒有其他方式要來校正這件事情這個可以討論那第二個就是說部長您在當立委的時候您也覺得說有時候我們看那個平均點值其實是有一點被扭曲啦"},{"start":7299.581,"end":7307.905,"text":"我們其實比較重視的是那個浮動點子,浮動點子是比較,浮動點子要圓真相,而不是說攤扣之後,或是斷頭之後,你呈現的東西,因為我們要看的是真相,那這個部分因為在官網上看到的,就不是這個部分,所以這個"},{"start":7320.33,"end":7346.736,"text":"像東區看到有超過1了嘛那高頻也是靠近0.9但是最嚴重的就是那就是醫院平間造成啦臺北分區累積了那麼多醫學中心大家都在搶資源啦所以這個部分就是說那就是這個部分要一起處理另外部長因為上次您不在的時候好像我初步是聽石署長來說明提到到0.95要增加700億"},{"start":7350.257,"end":7368.564,"text":"提高到一要增加千億這個計算基礎我覺得還是要有一個說明就是不是喊一個數字但是剛剛陳金輝委員他就一直提到部長您這個數字不要記不記得下來您知道我們現在的健保佔GDP的百分之多少嗎"},{"start":7370.379,"end":7397.049,"text":"您就是有沒有這個概念當然有所謂的national health expenditure醫療通知會一般性的這個部分我們在OECD國家是淨賠莫作假設這個我們是總共是一般性醫療支出是大概6.1但是那個OECD國家的中位數跟平均都是9我們是淨賠我記得是倒數第二個還第三個就是源頭錢不夠"},{"start":7399.549,"end":7416.988,"text":"對那這個東西可是如果我們今天談健保因為我們在處理健保還只佔50%到55%所以是3點多那3點多你要照顧你3點多要照顧百分之百的病人就是民眾百分之百的民眾那這當然是奇蹟因為沒有人有辦法做到用3.5來照顧所有的病人所有的人"},{"start":7419.611,"end":7434.241,"text":"而且您現在是就是全保嘛小病大病什麼都全保在這個裡面嘛那這個當然等一下我還是提到那個法規的部分你說只是要給給付等等所以今天我覺得會碰觸到很多很敏感但是過去政府不去面對的問題老實說"},{"start":7436.183,"end":7438.986,"text":"那包括這個要價差的部分,要價差部分老實說因為我質詢過薛部長兩次,他一個月內就差一百億他最少說四百億,後來說五百億,其實都不計"},{"start":7451.483,"end":7452.044,"text":"葛珮帆、葛珮帆、葛珮帆、"},{"start":7473.607,"end":7475.087,"text":"用乙藥養醫的方式。"},{"start":7494.674,"end":7520.596,"text":"這個東西就是說等一下我想等一下在討論的過程中我還是有幾點我個人是同意因為本黨沒有提出點子的部分我提出了一些附帶的那個決議部分部長我可以理解說沒有辦法一步到位當你突然把點子提高的時候但是我也希望你們有根據的有數字的提出一些你們覺得可以優先來做的"},{"start":7521.116,"end":7535.122,"text":"剛剛你也有提到急重病啦也許過去還有什麼燈塔行業等等有一些這個優先次序然後但是但是也要有一些時程啦就要有時程譬如說你規劃怎麼來規劃什麼時候來解決這個問題那最後我們就是投資不夠所以部長不只是您的責任啦我覺得院長跟總統都要正視這個問題啦"},{"start":7545.907,"end":7569.506,"text":"賴總統不能只講健康台灣,但是他不去看數字,就輸人了。張誠醫師是很客氣在談說,我們醫療是一流,很抱歉喔,部長,我們醫療不是一流的,不是因為人不好,不是人不好,是我們整個健康投資是不行的,我隨便講幾個數字都知道,我們落後的很厲害,平均餘命是落後的,癌症存活率是落後的,新生兒死亡率也是落後的,"},{"start":7570.386,"end":7589.513,"text":"那個藤尿病的合併的都是落後都是後段班但是這個東西不是因為人不好是整個投資包括我最熟悉的新藥的部分你引進的速度因為沒有錢所以老實說我不會去直接責怪石署長因為部長、院長、總統我覺得你們要從源頭從源頭把這個問題解決那等一下我想還有其他的看怎麼來做我再繼續表達我的意見謝謝部長"},{"start":7600.097,"end":7623.852,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來我們請蘇星泉委員謝謝主席 那上次協商的時候因為我們部長"},{"start":7625.407,"end":7625.728,"text":"我這邊要講三點,第一個"},{"start":7645.768,"end":7671.778,"text":"我們都是臨床醫師部長你是嘉義科、臺大門診中心這位主任林次長他是福山科那十雙兩是急診科急診的第一線所以剛剛陳慶威在講的那些在急診OCCA的啦甚至信託館啦PTCA啦等等這些以前都在那邊錄的"},{"start":7673.559,"end":7683.369,"text":"那我們現在我們以前當醫生的時代就是任老任厭我在馬街外科心臟外科的時候是隔天值班"},{"start":7684.813,"end":7704.831,"text":"然後我當總醫師的時候,我第四年、第五年、第六年,我的前面沒有總醫師,我的後面沒有總醫師。我一個人,戇口三年,我也是假期間加了、拼了,也是加過,但是那一種燒勁的精神,現在已經沒有了。"},{"start":7706.229,"end":7730.814,"text":"現在的年輕人,不可能,也多一個新冠病毒,不跟台灣那樣了,整個是超乎我的想像,年輕人根本他們的想法是完全南轅北轍,所以現在的醫生不要用現在裡面以前的想法來要求他們,這是不可能的事情,那所以醫護人員,"},{"start":7734.158,"end":7736.291,"text":"連那個放射師都跑了你知道嗎"},{"start":7737.406,"end":7762.397,"text":"跑到新加坡去新加坡去人家放射師一個月的薪水可以拿到16萬、17萬台幣在這邊4萬到6萬現在還有一個就是那個晶片業者在搶了那個薛睿遠他有跟我討論過現在晶片業者他們也要因為要用X-ray scan所以呢他們現在開都開八萬、九萬"},{"start":7764.676,"end":7767.36,"text":"我跟你們說,各位臉皮放射技術的照料料"},{"start":7768.399,"end":7792.844,"text":"所以這個是很嚴重的問題所以到現在已經不得不面對了我們怎麼說都不對啦我們沒有一個公共政策說用總額預算給你框著就丟著這樣搞了十幾二十年太厲害了政府就搞一個預算然後丟給議界整個風險控管、整個經濟的控管都拚命給他改反正我就總額"},{"start":7796.525,"end":7818.096,"text":"知務制、高年代的夫婦的孫嫂、0.7、0.6都知道的事情。就這樣,就這樣幹,到現在還這樣幹。然後呢,整個風險都拚拚讓他自己去搭。你自己的朋友,你台大醫院也是挨挨救。所以,我要跟大家說的是,你沒有到這個時候已經沒處理不行了。"},{"start":7822.028,"end":7825.94,"text":"真正的大招了了所以我們這個法提出來"},{"start":7827.453,"end":7837.658,"text":"三個總統候選人都自己這樣說﹖包括柯文哲﹖包括侯友宜﹖包括賴清德﹖同樣都說一點一口﹖自己說的喔。阿0.9﹖0.9是在假象嘛﹖時中量太厲害了嘛﹖他叫醫院先斷頭﹖斷頭後再延審﹖延審後他再攤扣﹖這攤扣有沒有違法﹖時長﹖攤扣是違法的嗎﹖"},{"start":7854.417,"end":7878.928,"text":"每一家醫院,你又害逃,我告訴你,攤扣完就維持0.9的假象,那個已經前面都站大堆了,所以這個都是假象,這個把它提出來,讓它通過,對你們也是一個助力,怎麼說,第二個,讓你們有所依託,因為事實就是要這樣,"},{"start":7880.965,"end":7890.984,"text":"不然台電、台電來...郭...郭...郭...經濟部長...郭部長...台電怎麼不可以給綜合?我一年在外地,一年在台大我贏,可以嗎?"},{"start":7893.319,"end":7907.424,"text":"不可憐嘛所以我們的公共政策只有醫療醫療是用綜合其他的沒有那你說如果沒有用綜合他會衝量什麼的這個成長十幾趴這都是想像啦啊輸出來了又不可憐"},{"start":7917.148,"end":7931.39,"text":"那所以我們提出來這個折衷,就是說綜合我們來用目標制,就是說你綜合裡面只要補充一點點一口,那你如果真的做到敲出去,敲出去你就審查,審查之後,你自己補的時候,你把它拍下來,"},{"start":7934.039,"end":7950.084,"text":"就總共在做目標是,這樣不太好,這樣是最新意外,每一年差的就是差那塊,差那塊四、五百億,四、五百億,那塊你給10年來就四、五千億,20年來就快要一兆,"},{"start":7951.124,"end":7976.099,"text":"全部拚給醫界醫界就是短收就是摳東摳西的然後醫界就沒有韌性不要講一天到晚叫沒有韌性沒錢要有韌性啦大家都在巧立名目大家親家庭啦、美容啦、藥啦然後新的藥材、科技就一直往病人身上加現在去開個骨科換個頸椎的一個一個cushion25萬"},{"start":7980.862,"end":7988.996,"text":"二十八萬?有我也看不下去。那是怎樣?因為便宜沒那麼多嘛,所以主委的東西這麼多,這署長你也知道嘛。"},{"start":7990.851,"end":8019.105,"text":"然後你現在健保還有一個很荒唐的事情,比如說今年總額給你成長200億、300億,那你隔天就開始啦,新的東西就一直往裡面加,一直往裡面加,啊你就,反正你就請人家去,他給你買單嘛,啊所以你就去什麼家,新的業務、新的科技,什麼都教教你,啊你寫上今年就只剩下兩百元、三百元而已,結果你去把整個社會答應的,剩下四、五百元。"},{"start":8020.726,"end":8039.122,"text":"你那些請假的錢剛才沒有交付那些陳昭蘇委員你講的薪要進不進來?進不進來,不如請你當時也進不進來我希望你不要進,想到10年都不要進去,你還要再考但這不可能的事情啦王振旭總理學科的醫生他每天也要求想新的藥要進來他就沒辦法進來,是怎樣?所以這個就是,都是問題所以我跟大家報告"},{"start":8047.905,"end":8070.771,"text":"這一個議題,藍綠的立委大家也沒什麼加標識意見啦!那你的總統、候選人都這樣承諾啊!所以,這如果通過,你說要收集、開辦實施、晚個半年、晚個一年再慢慢到位,現在就開始努力啦!現在事實上我有看到石崇良署長還有我們邱部長,"},{"start":8071.391,"end":8076.715,"text":"都去列入籍,說是公務預算的,什麼有的有的,這樣還沒做就死了,這是我們死的,對吧?所以他們列入,我也有看到,看到他們有努力,這個看得好過,比較難實施的,這樣就折衷啊,這樣就真的到位啊,這樣在健康台灣啦,什麼台灣都一樣啦,沒錢都好笑的啦,所以我在這邊再一次的跟大家報告,"},{"start":8098.827,"end":8108.291,"text":"這個法還是要讓他過過了之後可以把期程壓一下我們都是內行人大家講內行話以上 謝謝好 謝謝蘇星泉委員接下來請王振旭委員好 謝謝主席那我就在位子上跟大家報告"},{"start":8122.475,"end":8143.545,"text":"我來自醫界嘛 跟大家都很一樣所以其實對於如何能夠把醫療資源有效的提升來回饋給相關做醫療服務的同仁這個一定要全力來支持這個是一定要做的事情因為健保改革也一定要透過大家努力一起來完成"},{"start":8144.065,"end":8166.145,"text":"那剛剛經會委員提到我們這次也一起去參加WHA相關的活動那也去拜訪了IMD就是洛桑管理學院那除了剛剛經會委員所提的數據以外那我也順便把兩個數據給大家做參考就是今年我們是稍微微幅下降了兩名"},{"start":8166.986,"end":8194.201,"text":"变成第八名不过我们在2000万的人口我们还是维持最具竞争力的一个国家那不过相关于比较有优势的地方在医疗的部分他有一个item基础建设就是医疗保健基础设施符合社会需要那这一部分我们成绩非常的好是占第三名就是说我们基础设施其实是非常够表示我们的硬体"},{"start":8195.734,"end":8211.585,"text":"各方面相關的處理是符合社會期待所以我們的就醫的可敬性其實是讓我們的醫療服務得到非常高的滿意度可是另外一個部分弱勢的項目就在於"},{"start":8212.886,"end":8238.968,"text":"醫療保健支出佔GDP的比例他這邊列的數據是2021年的比例他佔了7.3他是在評比裡面佔第41位意思就是說的確我們的醫療在相關的保健的支出是真的很需要透過不管是主管機關或是如何來增加這個醫療保健支出真的是非常非常的重要"},{"start":8239.828,"end":8264.124,"text":"當然這個百分比或者是如何能夠讓它更有效的精進這個其實是關乎我們今天想要討論的重點剛剛部長也有提到我們的收入面透過現在的方式是有機會去增加相當一定數額的這個支出希望將來也針對這個醫療保健戰機TP的比例可以有效的提升"},{"start":8264.884,"end":8292.018,"text":"那收入面除了剛剛部長所提到的以外其實醫界一直很想像中的一個可能性就是基金有沒有可能透過公務預算來撥補之類的那我們最近也看到了勞工勞動部那邊針對勞工基金的補助是透過勞保基金來協助讓這個運作可以可長可久不至於受到太大的影響"},{"start":8293.158,"end":8310.609,"text":"所以其實那健保基金有沒有機會有類似的可能性這個其實醫界會相當的期待那也許部長也可以讓我們多了解一下這個差異性是在哪裡那這個有沒有機會針對收入面來做相對的這些處理"},{"start":8311.61,"end":8333.808,"text":"那其實我想讓醫界最有感的或者是剛剛我們所看到的各方面的護理是人力不足、藥品供應不足、醫院降低病房數因為就是相關的資源不夠包括急診、醫療、量能這些滿載等等的困境我們幾乎每天隨時都會從媒體看到這些困境"},{"start":8335.569,"end":8352.155,"text":"包括在現場的所有的同仁,不管是不是從事醫療都會覺得非常的辛苦。也很感心,因為這是醫療一種我們希望針對於讓全民的健康在疾病控制上得到最大的協助的情形下所面臨的困境。"},{"start":8352.995,"end":8374.347,"text":"那這個支出面如何能夠讓我們的醫療同仁有感我記得上一次也有請這個部長或者是相關的我們的這個主管機關能夠盡快的提出相關的措施來讓不管除了在服務民眾的過程裡面也讓所有的"},{"start":8375.407,"end":8397.647,"text":"相關的醫事人員多有感的一些政策那我們這邊是有看到今天部長所提出的非常多元的支出面的這些協助那當然如果醫療資源越多我們這個支出面可以更為廣泛的來處理的話對所有的這些可能改善的情形都會有很有幫助可是因為這個只有很簡短的書面說明"},{"start":8398.388,"end":8427.62,"text":"其實我們期待的是更完整的專案報告如果我們還有機會能夠把這個部分做更多的了解的話那相信提出來政策也有一定的期程有一定的目標那我們最近雖然有看到各方面的一些針對於如何去改善整個健保的制度的運作的部分有包括健康台灣的論壇還有今天也看到總統府有提出健康台灣委員會等等的工作"},{"start":8428.46,"end":8429.881,"text":"委員翁曉玲等19人、委員翁曉玲等19人、委員"},{"start":8449.011,"end":8471.172,"text":"除了民眾了解以外也能夠讓整體的這個醫療同業人員都能夠確認知道我們這個整體主管機關努力的方向也希望有機會來得到更多讓我們所有針對於要打造健康台灣包括醫療服務的過程裡面能夠大家非常"},{"start":8472.193,"end":8478.845,"text":"安心的繼續來努力的部分希望也能夠再從部長那邊得到更多的一個訊息以上"},{"start":8481.759,"end":8487.162,"text":"黃秀芳、林月琴主席健保脈絡近三十年健保的部分應該要去做一個總體的一個討論跟檢視醫護應該要有合理的報酬這個我相信所有在場的委員都非常的認同"},{"start":8507.995,"end":8508.275,"text":"我希望透過我們這次"},{"start":8523.292,"end":8543.749,"text":"有關這個健保這個健保的部分不論是這個健保的這個第62條或者是說整個全民健保是不是要重新做一個審視那如果說不去做一個重新的審視其實我覺得這個醫療資源不可能說無限因為"},{"start":8544.409,"end":8545.39,"text":"蔡易餘等19人、委員洪孟楷等19人、委員"},{"start":8568.849,"end":8589.9,"text":"配套到底配套是什麼其實我剛剛也聽不到部長就整個這個未來的配套是什麼如果說照這樣子今天如果這個健保法這個62條如果今天協商那未來如果這樣通過之後就之前講的可能會增加這個財務的負擔那我覺得說我們應該要讓醫護有一個合理的報酬"},{"start":8595.363,"end":8616.143,"text":"這個是我一定要重申的我相信所有的委員都非常的認同那這些醫護要合理報酬在這樣子有限的資源之下我們要怎麼去分配那另外就是說這個剛剛部長也有特別提到整個這個醫療體系要永續發展那分級醫療或者是醫藥分業配合著"},{"start":8616.643,"end":8617.284,"text":"蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文、蔡英文"},{"start":8643.638,"end":8667.037,"text":"不增加這個保費的這個情況之下我覺得都有一些困難所以我希望說等一下也可以聽到部長未來你們針對這一部分你們要怎麼做那我希望說在下一次我擔任召委的時候我希望我未來排一個就是有關衛福部你們要針對這個健保的合理支付那保障醫護人員的收入還有設置百億"},{"start":8668.058,"end":8682.871,"text":"癌症基金還有健康投資這些我希望說在我擔任召委的這個時候我會來排那希望說這邊能夠做一個專案報告那我等一下是不是先可以聽部長針對這一部分你們未來要怎麼做"},{"start":8684.961,"end":8697.975,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請林月琴委員然後劉建國委員如果健保有足夠的資金去應付這龐大的醫療支出健保的點子如果每一點保證"},{"start":8698.888,"end":8699.948,"text":"董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、"},{"start":8726.537,"end":8729.361,"text":"從106年到110年,帳面上連續5年的虧損,那110年到去年政府預算經費的挹注,帳面上才會轉虧為盈,由虧轉盈,那實際上還是虧損"},{"start":8742.378,"end":8761.491,"text":"那這個虧損狀況呢大家就是用醫院所醫療院所的健保點值的打折少看一點病啊少做一些檢查再少跟健保領一點錢之後審下來結果可是如果不再節省的話大家換句話說就是要把政府可以主導的打折的空間限制"},{"start":8762.692,"end":8764.094,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":8778.189,"end":8803.499,"text":"再來就是醫療的資源可能的問題事實上是浪費的問題大家沒有辦法被控制那對民眾有直接利益的醫療政策就沒有錢去做推動或是因為錢不夠只能慢慢的去推所以最重要的問題有兩個就是醫院因為對於健保的依賴我們的收費市場漲不出來導致健保總額瘦身的概念又還沒有開始就要遇到困難了"},{"start":8804.099,"end":8831.676,"text":"那第二個是今天的法案如果通過後那我不知道國民黨是不是會接著要去提案修法是調高費率6%的上限然後開始漲保費這個是我想民眾也會有些壓力擔憂因為整個尤其是年輕人他們的費用上調高的話對他們收入不多那又要再去繳這個所以這樣子的話我要怎麼告訴民眾社會保險沒有問題大家可以安心生活"},{"start":8832.777,"end":8850.139,"text":"民眾會知道這不是哪一個黨比較會執政的問題而是立法院修法的結果所以健保問題沒有關係到政黨是一個屬於每一個世代要去共同面對到的問題所以本席認為現階段不應該用法律把健保的點子"},{"start":8850.68,"end":8852.262,"text":"等19人等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":8870.64,"end":8889.762,"text":"可以提出一個合理的暫時性方案我們也期待衛福部是不是可以有我們有一個時間性然後讓衛福部能夠去有這樣子的一個中整的挑戰不是在這邊去訂出這樣的直接就在這邊今天要去做這樣的一個決定以上謝謝接下來我們請劉建國委員"},{"start":8892.694,"end":8907.185,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我現在呼應蘇清泉委員剛才講的,大家都來行人。但是來行人,我現在講話尾聲,我當然不要外行外行。"},{"start":8908.667,"end":8912.712,"text":"因為他們的養成過程裏面,抱著要救人救世的心情,所以那個精神都專注在這個地方。"},{"start":8924.386,"end":8936.971,"text":"有些人對剩餉、剩點子不是要注意,也太無盈了,所以如果醫生提到國稅局都怕要死就對了,不是要討人厭,是那些人剩餉不是要準。"},{"start":8943.733,"end":8953.12,"text":"我今天看你的報告坦白講,我也覺得就如蘇青雄委員所講的,你們來行人,來行人寫這份報告出來,也不夠該來行。"},{"start":8958.328,"end":8985.156,"text":"今天要協商啊,這個協商也已經因為你,又延後、又延後了,教委也這樣擺出來。我是覺得這樣啦,大家都說很多,我們要讓醫護得到合理的報酬,這個目標是不會有爭執的啦。但是典值要去把它入法,可能會延伸到了後續問題,來行的醫界的人,你們都比大家還要清楚。所以醫界原本也就有不一樣的聲音。"},{"start":8986.867,"end":9003.962,"text":"當你去把點子法制化之後造成的所有的衝擊我不曉得這個是我們目標能不能就在短時間達成而且可以永續若不行的情況之下我們就要回到真的內行的做法"},{"start":9005.403,"end":9033.061,"text":"什麼叫內行的做法是說先不要去跟他們討論有什麼問題這個問題是不是有一個破例畢竟你也是來自醫界那大家的因應其判就是希望確保醫護有合理的報酬你在健保署我們在各區北中南南區一直可以維持到這個0.93那其他地方為什麼不行"},{"start":9034.462,"end":9059.569,"text":"那我只是覺得說在北中還是其他地方你如果可以朝這個方向去走而且在短時間之內好比說一個月、兩個月、三個月我新部長我就能努力的讓這個點子可以朝向這個樣子你給我時間委會、各位委員你給我空間我絕對努力給你看我覺得這個才是真正在處理事情啦"},{"start":9061.145,"end":9076.537,"text":"啊你如果今天南美的協商你連這個違例都說不出來我會覺得我們就僵在這個地方啦這樣坦白講也讓大家在期待我們可以往前一步的這樣的一個期待會落空啦"},{"start":9080.04,"end":9108.232,"text":"所以我覺得補充是不是你要縮寬應該是這樣因為我前幾天接到很多訊息我以為今天來我們是有一個很大的進步有一個很大的進展而不是僵在這個地方然後一直要處理我想有人要確保點值就是一點等一元嘛 對不對當然我有看到國民黨其他委員他現在要確保是一點等0.95嘛0.95元這個就是還有大家有討論的空間嘛"},{"start":9109.833,"end":9121.931,"text":"所以如果你宜蘭區的這樣的一個基準,我們可以努力達到這個地方,還是我們第一步,你在一個月內、兩個月內、三個月內,你可以達到這個全國各區,就是這個1.2 009元以上。"},{"start":9127.129,"end":9152.48,"text":"我是覺得請長兄也來行的陳委員也是來行的就對了你們都是在來自醫界應該大家這樣會比較對我們的醫護也好交代對社會面也好交代也不用去動到健保的匯率等等等是不是可以朝這個方向來努力請部長還有次長還有署長你都是來行的"},{"start":9153.925,"end":9163.259,"text":"你們是來做議題嗎?是不是你可以休息?休息五分鐘讓他們去吵架嗎?他們在內行的、吵吵的,這裡真的很內行。好,謝謝。好,因為還有兩位委員要發言。我們先請邱政軍委員,再來廖偉祥委員。"},{"start":9173.952,"end":9201.883,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有我們部長大家午安大家好我剛剛聽了很多那我想在座很多都是來自醫界我們建國委員也講了大家都來行的我們還是這樣講就是說因為我們來自於地方我們看到情形其實是我們醫護人員確實嚴重不足我們最常面對的問題就是常常我們的鄉親要到醫院"},{"start":9202.923,"end":9228.774,"text":"都沒有病床這是我們面臨最大的問題那為什麼會有這些問題當然就是我們醫護人員的嚴重不足那醫護人員為什麼不足就是薪水不夠我要這樣講就是說我們培養一個醫護人員其實是非常也是要一段時間也是要一段時間才會有一個優秀的一個醫護人員那如果因為我們今天的政策不一樣導致我們的醫護人員"},{"start":9230.615,"end":9232.236,"text":"剝削防制條例部分條例部分條例部分"},{"start":9250.026,"end":9251.306,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":9272.532,"end":9297.191,"text":"不要講說健保破產我們全民健保這個政策將沒有辦法再執行我想這面臨的問題是越來越嚴重就像我打個比方就是我們前陣子這個永豐化學它是做這個生理實驗水的它現在跟醫護人員沒有關係但我打個這個比方就是說我們從因為健保一直砍價砍一直砍從一包點滴從20年前的56.7砍到剩下25.6比礦泉水還低啊"},{"start":9302.755,"end":9324.586,"text":"那造成這個問題之後然後我們國內的廠商沒辦法活下去我們會要花更多的錢兩三倍的價格去外面採購我想醫護人員同樣是會面臨到這個問題假如不夠的時候是不是我們要將會面臨更多的成本去來做這個事情我想部長這邊待會我也希望大家能夠"},{"start":9325.326,"end":9338.792,"text":"認真的來考量這個問題我們是來解決問題不是製造問題因為碰到問題的我們發現問題的就是把它提出來希望大家一起來解決以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請廖偉強委員好"},{"start":9341.996,"end":9355.113,"text":"在場所有委員、同仁、主席還有我們的部長以及所有相關部會的同仁簡單來講我想大家應該也聽得蠻多健保已經到了不得不改的時候可是其實已經拖了很久所以要改也拖了很久"},{"start":9355.774,"end":9368.845,"text":"那當然今天說要保障一點議員我想這個是姿勢體大的確不是修一條法或是硬要做這件事情就一定就是就沒有要考量其他的部分可是我想這段時間以來這個醫療體系發生的問題還有這個所有醫護、血汗醫護等等的問題大家都知道"},{"start":9376.411,"end":9400.494,"text":"所以我們其實今天討論這裡就是希望有一個具體的方案那像我們在像我本期在今年會期剛出的時候其實是有提一個健全醫療法人特別條例這個部分呢其實那個時候是希望保障0.95可是用的是這個特別的預算就是也就是另外用特別預算來打這個強行針為期三年的部分"},{"start":9401.095,"end":9430.197,"text":"好那當時提出來的確你們行政單位也有各種的問題甚至攻擊可是我想要講的事情就是在野黨提出一些解方希望你們可以去看有沒有辦法我們的行政院也提出衛福部也提出個相應可以解決現在問題的方案可是看起來是並沒有的所以今天才會開到這個會來所以基本上我們想要講的事情是這些醫護醫療體系先倒最終其實倒楣的是人民所以在這裡希望我們衛福部可以盡速"},{"start":9431.318,"end":9437.742,"text":"到時候來協商提出一個大家可以滿意怎麼樣在這個時間裡面解救我們醫療體系面對的問題的一個方案那謝謝以上好那剛剛委員有特別提到其實很希望說今天衛福部其實可以提一個比較具體的"},{"start":9449.485,"end":9478.001,"text":"你們怎麼來說服大家的你們改善的做法那因為剛剛部長報告都是方向性的就是沒有你的短中長期你會改善到什麼程度是方案還沒有準備好還是還沒有拿出來因為我記得上次這個石署長的時候已經有講到一些比較具體的東西結果今天那具體的東西又不見了那所以這個不曉得是你們內部到底有沒有持續討論"},{"start":9479.372,"end":9500.466,"text":"現在到什麼階段?是不是部長可以回應一下?因為剛剛有多位委員都一直很想知道說你們真正比較具體的想法要怎麼做?謝謝主席,謝謝各位委員先進真的我是非常的感動大家為人民的健康的努力各位都知道幾個月前"},{"start":9501.894,"end":9525.052,"text":"我的位置是跟你們一樣的那我蘇星騰理事起理事長當過前聯會的理事長他的英俊的肖像還掛在那個牆壁上我是他後面的啦我因為表現不好所以我到現在都還沒掛表示說我們都是一起為人民在"},{"start":9526.058,"end":9540.427,"text":"在努力啦,那我們真的上任,至少上任以來我們的行政部門絕對沒有一天連半夜做夢都在想說要怎麼解決這個問題啦,今天大家一樣啦,我們當然要考慮整個國家的發展,當然剛才說得很好,你如果醫療垮掉什麼就不用說了嘛,"},{"start":9551.283,"end":9580.125,"text":"所以這是醫療絕地不能讓我看到我希望為總統、鄉親、議長大家也這樣想你說我心裡這段時間有什麼一直在研究,一定要研究可行性所以我心裡先拜託我們的署長先說說我們最近因為你昨天有報告過今天講的是不是有更已經去跟行政院各部門大家溝通的"},{"start":9580.626,"end":9583.973,"text":"比較具體的一些方案可不可以給大家報告一下"},{"start":9590.905,"end":9614.54,"text":"趙偉還有各位委員還有部長、次長這個因為有一些目前大家都知道說目前正在籌編明年度預算所以最後的確實是多少的金額大概還沒有辦法跟各位報告但是大概幾個方向上我們現在已經在進行中的也跟大家報告就是說在這個"},{"start":9617.482,"end":9635.276,"text":"典值要讓他這個能夠提升那我們所採取的近期當然就是希望說讓這個一屆的付出能夠得到適當的這個回饋所以這個典值的提升當然是第一個要務所以我們在做法上是第一個是把這個總額內部"},{"start":9637.397,"end":9658.266,"text":"有一些支出項目比較偏向公共衛生的改以公務預算來支應這樣的話相對的支出的項目變少但是這些服務不減改由公務預算來支應所以這個是第一項的策略因為目前正在跟行政院爭取中確實的"},{"start":9660.247,"end":9686.435,"text":"這個預算如果編列下來之後我們就可以去精算的去這個計算對點子的影響所以這個是第一個那第二個當然還有一部分是屬於這個癌藥的這個我們叫做癌症新藥基金的設立那當然這個基金的設立呢它還涉及到很多法規的事情那不過呢我們也積極的跟行政院在爭取因為我們從"},{"start":9687.755,"end":9702.916,"text":"今年的總流裡面邊有暫時性支付就是對於我們未來癌藥基金那麼要這個扮演的這個角色對這個一些癌症的新藥那確實有臨床上的"},{"start":9704.177,"end":9724.094,"text":"極破需求,但是臨床的試驗報告或療效上或財務衝擊上,上有一些不確定性的,我們在今年就是用總額的專款,就是暫時薪資部分在支應,這個未來"},{"start":9725.976,"end":9748.971,"text":"那麼明年度我們也在爭取那麼變成是另外一筆由公務預算那麼所支應的這個新藥基金那這樣也會讓總額內部有一些的這個財務壓力那麼由公務預算來支應那這個對這個點值的提升那麼也有它的幫忙那麼這個是在"},{"start":9750.912,"end":9767.782,"text":"第二部分當然還有近期我們也在討論的對於偏鄉因為如果說一致性的保障點子那就會擔心影響到偏鄉的排擠也就是說你在資源豐沛的地方一樣保障"},{"start":9768.902,"end":9789.766,"text":"1.1億元。偏鄉也是1.1億元的結果,勢必就會造成偏鄉的資源會排擠得更嚴重,更不容易包含找尋的醫護人員跟經營的困境會更嚴峻。所以我們在下半年,我們現在也已經通過總額的討論,會先針對"},{"start":9796.668,"end":9804.781,"text":"醫療資源不足地區的所謂燈塔型醫院來做點子的保障,包含適當成長的總額保障。"},{"start":9808.905,"end":9825.231,"text":"考量的是不只是點子的保障因為在這些地區往往面臨的是人口外流所以在減少的情況之下服務量也會下降所以即使保障這個一定的總額也不見得一點一元給他保障也不見得他能夠這個"},{"start":9827.092,"end":9828.052,"text":"等19人等19人、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員"},{"start":9843.357,"end":9862.156,"text":"近期在進行中的當然長期的部分中長期的部分像剛剛部長也特別提到全能照顧分級醫療居家醫療我們也都在今年下半年開始都會陸陸續續的推出上路"},{"start":9863.537,"end":9878.507,"text":"整個醫療資源的使用讓它更適切性那麼也會有助於這個點子的保障所以我想先簡單的說明如果有需要我們再送完整的書面報告再給委員會來參考"},{"start":9881.338,"end":9906.785,"text":"謝謝署長我想我們那個所有的項目可以做的一定都是所有的部門都會想一直去研擬然後要溝通啊大家也知道政府是一個大機器我們每年要什麼預算今年也要寫好你不寫就什麼也沒有所以我們最近當然是把預期可能我們明年要爭取到的譬如說我們把公務預算"},{"start":9907.885,"end":9933.235,"text":"原來是應該用公衛生、用的健保、清清的,這邊我們還要清潔,清潔還要跟國發會這邊溝通,行政會會裁員分配。所以你說要叫我一聲就一聲,當時當時,那個,如果你站在政府的一個,即使再有效率的政府也願意幫忙,他還是有一定的制度要去,"},{"start":9933.915,"end":9956.108,"text":"要去進行,但是絕對其實說每天都必須要去行政院開會一直在協調怎麼樣把相關的事情做好其實那個署事長提的事情可以提的事情可以講三點鐘,可能講不完那個是不是我還是請我們最關心這個"},{"start":9957.91,"end":9969.402,"text":"農主席同意那個請林次長他也長期以來也關心很多急重症也很瞭解醫界的心聲可不可以給他有機會講一下好來我們請次長"},{"start":9974.107,"end":9997.213,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長、署長還有在場我們所有大院的委員那也跟大家報告說說其實我們都來自醫界我們大家心情都一樣甚至我們以後也要回去醫界所以如果整個系統做得不好我們以後再回去那個場域也都會非常辛苦其實像現在在跟我們反映現況的都是我們自己在醫療界的弟兄姊妹大家都希望說能夠"},{"start":9997.993,"end":10000.014,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人"},{"start":10015.462,"end":10030.308,"text":"協會先見了面。地區醫院他們就表示說,他們其實最擔心的事情是,老實說,對啊,署長意思是這樣,地區醫院它即使是一點醫院,你制度沒有給它處理好,他們跟旁邊的醫學中心、大醫院相衝,他們還是非常辛苦。"},{"start":10031.208,"end":10055.81,"text":"所以如何先保障在整個製度裏面不可以或缺但是它的服務必須要能夠維持的這些意願這個我們在製度裏面一定要非常小心也都要講到我們如果起頭的平衡都下去的時候那現行的都沒有改最擔心的事情是某些我們比較困難的這些部分怕會受到影響所以這個部分我們也正在積極檢討如何協助尤其是像我們上次來跟我開會的時候包含說"},{"start":10059.094,"end":10075.593,"text":"張華在園林市可能醫院的量還夠可是只要一出到南彰化可能一斤而已我們在很多地方像這樣的燈塔型醫院甚至包含台北跟新北燈塔型醫院他們也跟我報告過他們也跟我抱怨過說因為典值的大醫院它的這個磁吸太強"},{"start":10076.794,"end":10102.228,"text":"結果他燈塔型醫院再怎麼樣努力他這邊他們都會一直在虧損狀態但是這些燈塔型醫院真的不能讓他沒有因為他真的是照顧我們最醫療資源最缺乏的這些醫院所以整個制度上面我相信大家的目標都一樣讓健保可以永續讓醫療服務可以拿到應該有的這些資源但是這個過程中我想也不可能是說我們做一條就可以馬上完成的"},{"start":10102.788,"end":10120.82,"text":"那其實像今年的這個健康台灣論壇也談過很多科都說希望能夠確保他們的點子比方說在沒有辦法完全平衡的情況之下那有的科就會說那我們的很重要一定要保障我們但是在這種狀況之下我們如何能夠從制度裡面去做一些處理"},{"start":10121.801,"end":10137.608,"text":"那也謝謝委員這邊其實過去都一直很支持我們做分級醫療分級醫療從2016年我們開始那個時候小英政府上來之後我們就開始推分級醫療我們有一段時間也真的開始逐漸落實上下轉的這個制度"},{"start":10138.388,"end":10161.225,"text":"但是因為2020年遇到疫情所以到2022年這段時間整個分級醫療制度的部分比較沒有辦法落實那疫情終於過了之後其實現在很多基層也跟我們要求很多的尤其是其實是地區跟區域醫院也都希望說我們可以趕快再回到分級醫療制度裡面那其實也跟大家報告健保體質跟健保總額絕對跟分級醫療制度有關"},{"start":10162.386,"end":10191.078,"text":"我們都講過非常多次如果這樣同樣的糖尿病控制它可以在地區醫院或是在基層醫療控制那病人就不用到大醫院去可以減少很多大醫院的庸塞也跟各位委員報告各位委員在關心急診庸塞的部分昨天下午我也跟醫事司到相關的兩個幾乎是我們北部急診比較庸塞的地方那帶床的部分其實庸塞我們相信我們在臨床都知道最庸塞帶床通常都是禮拜一"},{"start":10191.798,"end":10218.584,"text":"因為禮拜六禮拜天的很多床是預定手術的人會先住進去但是病人很多時候禮拜一到禮拜五沒有去就診他到禮拜六他才要去醫院的時候沒有門診了結果這個時候反而這些病人就塞在急診所以我們也跟地方的醫院討論我們也跟這些醫院討論過如何在制度裡面鼓勵民眾在我們醫療的門診服務都還有的情況之下盡量在門診服務不要再塞在我們的急診"},{"start":10219.104,"end":10219.404,"text":"等19人等19人、委員"},{"start":10236.96,"end":10255.946,"text":"我們昨天也跟他們承諾說我們要有一些比較自動化的系統什麼叫自動化的系統?就是區域聯防的概念我們之前其實健保署也提過區域聯防我們當然希望不要單純只有一家醫院在承擔所有急重難症所以我們現在在制度裡面也希望能夠更加平衡我們能夠處理急重難症的這些醫療機構"},{"start":10257.026,"end":10281.506,"text":"但是急救難症救護車要把急救難症的病人送到哪裡救護車能不能在送病人之前知道說這些醫院現在緊急狀況之下他的人力已經正在急救某些病人他可能在周邊的其他醫院類似的路程可以送的過去來減少擁捨在同一個醫療院所內部然後造成醫療院所的這些醫療人員的這個服務的量能大量的突然出現"},{"start":10282.527,"end":10299.349,"text":"盡量均衡,我相信是我們希望能夠達到的。在製隊裡面,這個真的是衛福部的責任,我們要來處理。那我們部長最清楚,我們其實一直希望能夠再更加的強化嘉義制度。部長一直就講,要每一個人、每一個民眾都覺得自己有一個自己的嘉義科醫師啦。"},{"start":10300.11,"end":10323.817,"text":"有自己的家醫科醫師其實那個精神就是平常就有被醫生照顧到他才可以避免不用到急診去擁捨這個是我們也在接下來就是說疫情過後重新來把分級醫療制度去做的處理那在健保資源的部分其實委員們也都知道我剛提到了檢查的分級醫療這是我們在之前也曾經提過那當然在對病人最小衝擊對病人的醫療就醫習慣"},{"start":10325.978,"end":10344.733,"text":"不要讓他影響最大的情況的最小的情況之下我們來慢慢來做這種檢查的分級那也感謝委員們的支持之前我們讓檢查的這些資料都有上傳讓很多的醫療院所也可以去查那可以避免一些健保的重複檢查的部分這些持續我們會再把它優化"},{"start":10345.353,"end":10373.067,"text":"那其實在這段時間有一個部分是我們的商保補位健保那我相信很多委員可能由於在場很多是專業的委員都知道過去很多商保是疊加在健保的上面健保有幾副商保才幾副可是這樣回過頭來會變成民眾他們其實會把很多商保應該負擔的壓力進到我們健保裡面來所以商保跟健保之間如何互相不要讓健保這邊受到商保的這個影響反而增加我們健保裡面的支出"},{"start":10373.847,"end":10393.838,"text":"這個在節流的部分我們會特別在接下來繼續努力那其實大家的立場都一樣我們其實就是朝點子的點子能夠友善再來的話我剛剛提到多元微調就是公務預算的部分那讓公務預算的支應能夠把原來健保應該回到健保的部分這個我們正在跟行政院做最大的努力"},{"start":10394.358,"end":10416.557,"text":"那大家所關心的人力的部分我相信在場大家也都曉得其實不只是醫療界啦很多的產業界年輕人對於我們講的Working Life Balance這件事情其實是跟我們這個年代不太一樣所以也跟大家報告我們在這段時間跟醫療這邊有做了一些討論那很多第一線的醫療人員跟我們講就是"},{"start":10417.737,"end":10440.391,"text":"現在的這些醫療人員尤其是護理師還有很多年輕的組織醫師他們不是不在這一行是他們轉到這一行裡面的其他科以昨天我們聽到的就是很多他們都到診所去了因為診所的生活比較能夠平衡收入可能跟在大醫院差不多可是診所的生活比較能平衡"},{"start":10440.971,"end":10466.579,"text":"那這邊我們也在醫師室還有我們接下來還有其他的一些單位我們要處理的,包含如何讓留在醫院裡面的這些醫療人員可以減少他們的某些負擔,包含大家一直個病的、貧健的文書項目等等,那引用一些新的科技能夠減少護理人員跟醫師他們在很多文字記錄裡面可以減少這些loading,減少我們在過去醫療管理上面對他們的負擔。"},{"start":10468.08,"end":10480.258,"text":"報告有點長那簡單來說我們也肯定也跟各位委員的立場都一樣減少一些沒有必要的負擔然後健全應該有的服務好謝謝那接下來我們請陳昭志委員發言"},{"start":10483.225,"end":10507.505,"text":"謝謝主席。我們先用重點式討論,不要一般式的整個描述。第一個,健保法第三條,請問石署長,但你不是說政府每年負擔本保險的總經費不得少於每年保險作者,經費扣除法定收入金額是36%。就是說扣除36%之後,事實上是要由主管機關編列撥補。這個我解讀沒有錯吧。我先,我好好的解點。"},{"start":10511.387,"end":10528.755,"text":"事實上本來就有這個法規就不足的部分本來中央就要撥補這個預算不好意思這是第一個健保法第三條等一下麻煩你說明一下"},{"start":10533.461,"end":10539.201,"text":"二、新藥預算增加暫時性支付等於今年多了兩倍"},{"start":10540.543,"end":10569.653,"text":"大概五、六十億嘛對不對就是加起來五、六十億過去大概二、三十億合計嗎?委員如果說是合計我們新藥新科技去年是三十億今年是七十億但是這裡面包含還有含藥還包含含藥跟那個那個含藥本身就是七十億那是另外一個獨立的預算是那個那個醫材啦就是新技術的部分就是一直對這個都是總的算我了解但是就是今年增加兩倍署長"},{"start":10570.393,"end":10595.365,"text":"整個審查的方式完全沒有改變還是跟以前一樣的非常的嚴酷非常的一動不動就是砍價動不動就是溢價溢不成然後還有這個不合理的那種CAP當然我知道源頭的問題就是還是總共是不夠可是即便你今年增加為兩倍Total增加新藥新科技但是整個審查方法是沒有改變我供署長參考署長就是有一些"},{"start":10595.905,"end":10612.596,"text":"如果你有新的來源或新的資源你其實有時候要跟委員們或是你的屬下稍微說明一下要reflect這件事情我上次去開會就沒有人知道這件事情第三個偏差點子等等我想等一下請署長也先解釋一下為什麼西醫基層他從107年到113年"},{"start":10616.799,"end":10636.211,"text":"經過疫情這個我們可以了解那個點子都不是能夠具有參考性那為什麼在113年他的點子降的比107年還多很多而且你這個是已經都攤扣都處理掉這個數字的差異拜託等一下署長也跟我們說明一下為什麼會是這個樣子"},{"start":10641.495,"end":10665.011,"text":"主導您上次告訴我說門診65%、住院35%當然我們不否認現在很多醫療進步可能可以在門診治療這個你當然也要評估進去當然門診零很多癌症、癌藥等等標靶療法也許相對費用比較高這個你都可以再去做分析但是基本上這麼大的門診量那你要落實醫療分級"},{"start":10670.334,"end":10696.822,"text":"醫療分級現在根本就完全死掉啦在哪來的醫療分級你地區醫院從600家健保開辦到現在剩300家根本就腰斬啦這個根本沒有醫療分級醫療分級可言啦那醫學中心都還在增加區議院也拼命增加整個醫院評鑑是部長是您管的這個整個醫事師的醫車會委辦這個我要求以後醫院評鑑不是只公佈誰合格誰合格名單我們要分數"},{"start":10697.682,"end":10719.753,"text":"我們也要整個衝擊的報告就是說做完一次醫院評鑑我們今年增加了三家醫學中心然後我們會影響什麼等等等等我們地區院又少了等等就是說他要有一個全面性的報告不是那麼簡單的做完以後大家都在猜測然後我上了沒上還是不要再搞什麼辨識度不足這個東西不要再來"},{"start":10723.478,"end":10740.784,"text":"門診的地方還有一條法規,不然你有本事就把它改掉,只是要不給付那你就放了30年都沒有動,當然署長我不是在怪你,這個只是要不給付的是大家都不談今天很多敏感性的問題都不談,那只是要如果只要病人少一次就醫"},{"start":10742.403,"end":10760.711,"text":"在社區要求做明明大家就告訴我前署長、前前署長也都告訴我們說只要少一次就醫就少掉300多億但是大家都避談不要去談這個真相那裡法又在那個地方所以這件事還是要去面對那剛剛好像不曉得是次長還署長有說雖然是7.2"},{"start":10763.632,"end":10779.259,"text":"7.2的數字有問題喔,我們那個NHE是有問題的喔我們明明就是6.1,那薛部長他後來把長照加進去變成7.5但是7.5比起,隨便講一個國家,韓國好了,大家都以前看不太起的國家我們6.1的時候他是8捏,我們7.2、7.5的時候他是9.8欸"},{"start":10785.472,"end":10804.167,"text":"就是這個東西整個健康投資的不足一直都是存在而且分歧醫療從醫院評鑑看根本逆著走啊逆著走啊醫學東西越來越大大家一直蓋醫院啊病床越來越多這個東西不漲我們還是要去面對啦你真的要改革就要去面對這個問題啦賺錢的醫院還是有"},{"start":10807.691,"end":10826.094,"text":"但是辛苦的醫院還是更多這個基本上這個要去調一下這個在醫院評鑑這個部分不是一時能夠調整的但是請不要再犯這個去年底到今年初的一個錯誤又增加而且是在北區最不缺醫療資源的地方本來200萬人要有一家醫學中心"},{"start":10826.955,"end":10850.055,"text":"現在已經爆得一塌糊塗我質詢薛部長他竟然回答我說前面的人也沒有這樣做這是什麼話別人沒遵守我就跟著不遵守而且加碼下去這個不是這樣子談問題的啦那就是我等一下看看能不能今天我就了解一下那個署長就是說為什麼西醫基層會比當時疫情之前猛掉那麼多"},{"start":10850.975,"end":10869.509,"text":"那當然又回到這個浮動點值跟平均點值的事情以後是不是可以讓我們知道真相就是說你越讓大家知道真相你的困難度在那裡其實委員們更能夠幫你去爭取或是處理這些事情那也請部長您多看看我現在還背得出來健保開辦的時候醫學中心12家區域醫院48家"},{"start":10875.333,"end":10878.174,"text":"地區醫院615家,但是25年後醫學中心26家,區醫院84家,地區醫院剩315家請你看看那個圖形會長成什麼樣子所以那個分級醫療,大家都在,三位都會談到分級醫療"},{"start":10892.381,"end":10917.419,"text":"沒有啦,台灣的一分角已經崩潰了,你要不要救?那你不救醫療,那極難重鎮,那就是要大的醫院來承擔啊所以你的問題永遠存在啊那我提到要價差,大家都會躲,每個人都在躲要價差要價差,你要提高醫療的點子,因為他們過去是因為你沒有給他合理的支付他們不得不去使用這個要價差,要價差故意邱部長,我可以幫你問問嗎?要價差現在多少錢?"},{"start":10921.121,"end":10924.083,"text":"他知道差不多多少嗎?時俗上你又在...我跟你說啦,六百億跑不上去啦,六百億跑不上去啦。這個部分,你只要把點子弄高就很靠近了啦。你如果每個人這樣一次這個看小病的時候,"},{"start":10936.693,"end":10959.186,"text":"那個社區藥水水準很高啊,而且你法在那個地方啊,那邊就減370多億啊,欠債也一千億,有夠了啦所以說很多事情,所以說我知道我要給部長跟這個時間嘛,就是說我要給你們時間就是說,你一定有個優先資訊,你要怎麼做,然後你做的時候你有個時辰沒有人會期待30年問題一夕解決,沒有人會這樣子的"},{"start":10962.529,"end":10976.269,"text":"但是我剛剛點的那些問題他就一直在嘛 署長你多擔待一點啦那個你先解釋一下幫我們解釋一下為什麼那個點子會這樣落差這麼大呢好 謝謝陳昭志委員 那個署長可以回應嗎"},{"start":10978.57,"end":10987.493,"text":"謝謝主席還有陳委員的這個槌尋因為有幾個因為您提了好多個問題我逐一答覆一個是36%健保法第三條的問題那麼這個36%是這樣子計算就是先以這個"},{"start":10994.635,"end":11011.014,"text":"顧主跟民眾自己所付的這些保費,那它的佔率就是等於是64,然後回推成整個大的健保應該多少收入,然後再扣除掉,那麼政府已經依法,"},{"start":11011.835,"end":11032.25,"text":"之初的部分不足數那麼再補所以舉例而言在111年那麼政府另外結算後補了883億到健保基金那112年就再補了937億因為那個補充保費比較高所以他就會推估推升整個"},{"start":11032.95,"end":11055.618,"text":"大餅所以他就在這個行政院這邊的結算之後再補進來的就提升了就是937億所以每年都是這樣計算那剛剛部長所提到的是說未來我們為了讓這個健保的餅更大這裡所謂的這個36%政府應負擔的部分只是採記這個健保法裡面規定"},{"start":11056.698,"end":11074.203,"text":"而不要把其他涉伏政府負擔的部分也算進,不然的話就會讓這個政府要再挹注的部分就會下降了。所以這個是剛剛講的這個36%的部分,過去每年行政院都會在結算之後另外剝入。"},{"start":11075.043,"end":11090.963,"text":"不足36%,不足數。未來我們現在在檢討36%的採計基礎以在健保法裡面規定為限,避免受到其他法律的影響而造成政府36%的計算基礎下降。"},{"start":11093.186,"end":11105.297,"text":"何處長這個部分就因為連健保委很多成員的計算的認知都不一樣了解我們要清楚是那第二個呢就是那個門診的點子為什麼這個陳偉業應該關心的是112年還是113年因為113年現在才第一季過去出來因為是應該是112年那112年的點子"},{"start":11118.647,"end":11145.296,"text":"對、對、對、點子當然它相較於就是疫情前108年之所以下降大概我們看起來有兩個主因那麼一個當然是因為服務量的增加服務量的增加就是有疫情的關係那麼跟108年這些類流感包含COVID還有流感等等這些類流感的病人的人數確實是增加所以這個一個是人次所影響"},{"start":11146.856,"end":11175.328,"text":"這次這個量的部分那另外有一個呢是這個單價的影響單價的影響就是來自於我們剛剛提的分級醫療其實過去這個在基層這些診所那麼開出的慢性處方籤的比例是增加的因為過去呢多數這個不是慢性處方籤我們用日資藥費那但是如果你是慢性處方籤那就是每一個藥"},{"start":11176.528,"end":11204.014,"text":"逐筆申報所以他那個單價就會提高所以剛剛提到點子會下降就兩個一個是因為受到COVID流感的影響的人次的增加那這些一般是用日資藥費而已這是量的影響第二個是單價的影響主要是來自於這個藥費的成長也就是本來在醫院拿慢性處方簽的轉移到診所這個大概從疫情當中就開始移動"},{"start":11205.454,"end":11229.2,"text":"讓在基層診所看慢性病拿慢性處方鉛的比例已經成長超過到40我記得是42%了所以從過去就成長上來那這個會造成藥費的增加在基層診所藥費增加就會造成他點子的下降因為藥費是1.1元所以會造成浮動點子的下降所以這個在未來我們做總額"},{"start":11230.82,"end":11255.071,"text":"這四度的成長同時要做分配的時候要把這個因素一併考慮進來那這個也是分級醫療的成果這個是我們覺得這個是一個正向的正向的發展那至於說那個量的不預期就是這些流感或者傳染病的不預期那我們另外在這個總和裡面也有一個叫做非預期風險或非預期政策"},{"start":11256.191,"end":11283.112,"text":"調整的費用,那像去年我們就補入了近90億來做這個總額的調控的這個因為受到這個COVID影響的量大概在點值的部分是這樣那第三個您也特別提到說那個新藥那新藥我們現在的這個核准在上半年其實就已經多核准了這個14個新藥再加上這個擴充,我們也在檢討那個擴充"},{"start":11284.893,"end":11290.516,"text":"李彥秀等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員李彥秀等19人、委員"},{"start":11312.227,"end":11324.043,"text":"我瞭解我瞭解委員都不是專家我請他們要當專家不要再當賺錢的人應該他就去評估這個藥是不是有價值該給付那剩下的問題老實說應該屬或願或這個"},{"start":11327.668,"end":11346.149,"text":"所以就是說我們一方面希望跟這個指引去契合我們的幾付盡量跟指引就是這個臨床指引或國際的指引讓他盡量的契合當然一方面我們也必須跟廠商議價那不然的話這個錢再多恐怕也都是不夠的"},{"start":11347.421,"end":11374.569,"text":"那麼再來就是這個門診的佔率那麼確實從我們過去這十年看起來那麼健保的支出那麼到去年的分析大概透析的部分是佔支出的5%那這個已經改善從過去我們那個新發的這個透析病人就是進入要洗腎的病人其實已經開始微幅下降"},{"start":11375.236,"end":11394.69,"text":"那麼累計的洗腎人數也已經開始反轉了所以這個是好事所以我們整個總額在透析支出的部分已經有一點點控制住那現在大概佔5%那另外門診的部分是成長那麼現在住院的部分大概是30%門診的部分是65%"},{"start":11397.572,"end":11419.98,"text":"所以這個門診的成長我們也在分析說那這個成長我們現在看起來那麼以這個疫情後跟疫情前來比較確實在這個醫學中心大醫院這邊它的門診是成長的這也就是我們為什麼希望說委員給我們一點時間因為疫情當中先停下來的分級醫療"},{"start":11421.34,"end":11423.061,"text":"等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等19人等"},{"start":11446.417,"end":11465.183,"text":"成長最多的就是肺癌乳癌這個大腸直腸癌這些剛好跟我們的癌症的這個流行病是大概相似他們當然多數會在大醫院但是另外有一部分是屬於慢性病像糖尿病高血壓那這個我們目前正在做風險分級因為有一些"},{"start":11466.223,"end":11482.287,"text":"這個低風險的確實他應該要往下轉所以我們現在正在擬定策略那麼要開始會跟部長跟次長報告完之後我們會開始來啟動這個門診減量大醫院的這個分級醫療的這個適當的這個門診的處理所以這個大概是在門診的戰略還有一個就是OTC的幾副"},{"start":11493.59,"end":11508.158,"text":"那麼OTC的幾付當然在健保法裡面對於OTC也就是所謂的只是用藥是不給付那但是在健保開辦的時候那麼他就是沿用了當時候的老保那個故事我知道是30年"},{"start":11509.198,"end":11537.092,"text":"那但是也已經檢討到剩下大概在800項左右啦之前就慢慢減下來了那麼一年的藥費支出大概是20億那但是我們去年呢那麼也嘗試的把一些有OTC的把它退出但是就發現有一個問題比如說過去我們大概在講那個人工肋液就是一個最明顯的例子因為人工肋液在健保收窄裡面有指示用藥也有處方藥"},{"start":11537.972,"end":11549.73,"text":"那麼指示用藥比較便宜,處方藥比較貴所以我們把一個人工肋液從這個指示用藥把它不給付之後結果我們的處方用藥大幅成長"},{"start":11550.831,"end":11577.019,"text":"才會造成人工類異的缺貨。反而造成健保的支出增加,我們得不償失,我們本來以為說把這個指示用藥把它排除幾副健保核省錢,結果沒有,支出反而增加,因為還有另外一個是屬於處方用藥的人工類異。所以換言之,如果我們沒有對整個藥品分類整個做檢討,"},{"start":11578.439,"end":11587.495,"text":"同時一個類似的成分又有處方藥又有這個指示藥我們單純的把指示用藥排除之後反而造成"},{"start":11589.066,"end":11591.929,"text":"卻要跟我們健保的支出的增加"},{"start":11611.314,"end":11635.846,"text":"永遠沒有辦法解決永遠沒有辦法解決今天的一些問題所以我跟委員報告我們認同應該把OTC回歸到健保法的規定那麼小病就是這個可能要自己照顧啦不過呢這個整個這個哪一些OTC先優先我們退出健保哪一些我們逐步有一些要保留"},{"start":11636.246,"end":11664.06,"text":"向有些是救命的藥他也是OTC比如說一些小孩子的用藥或者是因為他不容易在外面買你能讓他去藥局這個小兒進行的這個我們要給他保留在健保幾戶裡面急救的用藥像活性炭這個是急救藥可是這解毒的解毒劑但是他也是只是用藥這個我們也必須在健保幾戶所以我們會去檢討哪些還是應該留著啊哪一些我們比較"},{"start":11665.04,"end":11681.452,"text":"沒有這個不會有這個轉替代效果出來變成我們支出更高的來出我想那個比較細節評估的部分就不用在委員會裡面做這麼細的一個討論我們今天主要是針對法條的部分做大方向的討論那我想這個5月15號我們已經召開第一次協商"},{"start":11685.922,"end":11713.081,"text":"然後今天是第二次協商那在委員會我們也召開公聽會也有專報也有質詢其實已經做過非常多的意見的交換那所以我建議我們今天的條文跟委員會保留的附帶決議三項我們就送院會處理那有院會那邊是需要再來召集協商好不好委員會討論的部分其實已經非常的多那如果委員沒有意見的話"},{"start":11715.151,"end":11738.669,"text":"好來部長我還是要表示政府跟對醫界的支持衛福部也願意提出承諾來保障醫界的權益第一個就是說一定盡最大的努力讓點子像剛才說的那些我們來做其實"},{"start":11739.873,"end":11760.754,"text":"你不用要求什麼,一點子就一定到一個最重要的程度第二個就是說我們一定會採取多元的微調檢討公共就是說部分應該是由政府公務預算的總額這個一定我們用最快的適度當然這個要一個一個清不是說那個你講現在"},{"start":11764.546,"end":11786.857,"text":"國建署去做一個某一個項目他原來用健保他還是用這樣在做啊我們如果沒有去爭取經費又怎麼樣所以這個都要真的都要一點時間啦齁那童守文百億癌症基金這個看起來是已經可以馬上來來進行了啦齁那另外就是對護理人力政策整備12項策略計畫這個這個28億齁已經行政院已經通過這個請"},{"start":11793.221,"end":11819.804,"text":"這個護理界我們真的也是盡力去爭取另外還有一個很大的就是健康台灣深耕計畫因為我們台灣的很多醫療模式還是要靠大家各位有智慧的前輩們願意去思考你用你的體系你用你的想法去在人才的培育相關的一個社會的責任這樣子來做這個也在爭取可能到五年五百億的一個程度"},{"start":11820.58,"end":11844.337,"text":"那所以我在這邊還是要代表衛福部誠懇的期待說能不能給我們一點時間把這些事情做好以後我們再來看如果做了一段時間比如說做了一年以後如果大家覺得還是必須要用法來做什麼事情那個時候才"},{"start":11846.446,"end":11862.155,"text":"才來把這個法案定下去。衛務部正在就是這樣的一個呼籲跟請求,也請大院委員來裁決。"},{"start":11864.738,"end":11886.388,"text":"謝謝部長還要補充說明嗎根據剛剛我們所做的討論如果有下一次的協商或者是更具體的內容我們再來做往上的處理不知道這樣的提案有沒有機會讓主席再多了解一下謝謝蘇委員"},{"start":11888.397,"end":11903.151,"text":"我是覺得,我們討論很久了,但我們補充回來,今天也真的協商,這是已經久了久了久了久了久了所以,我想應該是,我宴會韓院長來主持,再來做一間協商,看結論如何,我們就來處理"},{"start":11910.558,"end":11924.231,"text":"我們再說一次,同樣是這麼一回事,再說一次也是這麼一回事。我想這個召委的能力也有限,我們已經召開兩次,還沒有辦法有共識,所以我們應該要敦請這個韓院長,由院會層級再來這個召集協商,我想或許更會有一些圓滿的答案。"},{"start":11935.1,"end":11950.577,"text":"那那個...因為那個條文沒有決定就沒有那個...沒有那個附帶決定就沒有辦法處理到一併保留就到...到院會的協商的時候再處理對...好...沒有咧...我之前在買1.2的耶"},{"start":11953.394,"end":11973.548,"text":"NO 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,{"start":2192.145,"end":2220.889,"text":"大院在委員會、黨團協商會議以及院會審議時為落實實質審查及討論並且限制持反對意見的委員充分發表辯護其意見及對多數意見提出批評的機會以背離民主意識程序應尊重及保護少數原則而有"},{"start":2222.299,"end":2248.833,"text":"為議而決的程序嚴重瑕疵違反憲法第63條議決法律案的規定故上開兩案修正條文之全部難任已具備法律的基本成立要件本院基於憲政機關需要依法行政的立場執行上極有自愛難行"},{"start":2251.141,"end":2271.246,"text":"第三點,總統進行國情報告相關規定違反憲法。依憲法遵修條文第四條第三項規定,立法院於每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告,並無可與總統定期為國情報告之義務。"},{"start":2279.005,"end":2305.342,"text":"立法院職權行使法修正條文第15條之一及第15條之二第一項規定總統定期或不定期赴立法院進行國情報告將妨礙總統日常國務的行使另外總統國情報告的時程及內容"},{"start":2306.334,"end":2332.507,"text":"也極可能與本院的施政報告重疊。立法院職權行使法修正條文第15條之四第二項及第三項規定立法委員口頭詢問總統應依序及時回答書面問題總統應於七日內以書面答覆"},{"start":2334.181,"end":2361.226,"text":"性質上均屬於執行總統的規定但總統為國家的元首對外代表中華民國對內統帥全國陸海空三軍並有任免官員授予榮典與赦免等重要的職權以及享有國家機密、刑事豁免等特權與一般行政首長並不相同"},{"start":2362.267,"end":2388.741,"text":"不應將民意機關對一般行政首長的執行權套用在總統身上總統由全國人民選舉產生與大院委員各自具有民意基礎以及民主的正當性總統定期接受民意檢驗直接對人民負責並不是對立法院負責"},{"start":2390.394,"end":2410.373,"text":"為憲法規定是由總統任命的行政院院長及行政團隊依憲法規定的方式對立法院負責。上述修正條文的規定是將造成總統國情報告以及行政院院長施政報告"},{"start":2411.687,"end":2440.212,"text":"均由貴院委員質詢的重疊與衝突的現象問亂憲法所定行政權之分工以及行政權對立法院負責之權力分立以及制衡的設計另外總統執選之前總統是由國民大會間接選舉產生依照國民大會相關規定國民大會代表"},{"start":2441.553,"end":2462.805,"text":"在總統進行國情報告時並不得發問或中斷在今日總統與人民直接選舉產生並且不是對立法院負責的現行憲法制度下立法院自無對總統發問或中斷發言之理而況"},{"start":2467.711,"end":2487.717,"text":"八十九年修正後,國民大會聽取總統國情報告的職權,已由立法院來行使。立法院繼承了國民大會的職權,當沒有繼承的職權,超越原職權的道理。第四點,執行權"},{"start":2490.169,"end":2516.682,"text":"調查權、聽證的行使即違反權力分立原則而且侵害人民的基本權利。立法院職權行使法修正條文第45條第一項及第二項第47條第一項及第二項第59條之三第一項都規定立法院行使調查權、調閱權"},{"start":2518.991,"end":2547.5,"text":"跟舉行聽證會時得要求政府機關部隊提供文件資料出席提供證言表達意見及接受詢問然貴院調查的範圍已擴張到對相關議案或者與立法委員職權相關的事項"},{"start":2550.599,"end":2562.796,"text":"這個與司法院釋制第585號及729號解釋所揭示的需行使憲法所賦予的職權有重大關係"},{"start":2564.622,"end":2591.273,"text":"以及需基於目的與範圍均屬明確的特定議案並與其行使憲法上職權有重大關係且非屬法律所禁止者違憲以上的規定並不相符如果大院啟動調查的目的是為了清查政府弊案依憲府的規定"},{"start":2592.168,"end":2617.244,"text":"是屬於監察院以及司法機關的全責範圍。以司法院釋字第325號以及585號釋字向有關機關調閱文件原本或要求與調查事項相關之人民或政府人員陳述證言或表示意見"},{"start":2619.073,"end":2646.459,"text":"都必須經立法院院會決議使得為之。立法院職權行使法修正條文第45條第1項、第2項以及47條第1項、第2項有關由委員會決議所設調查專案小組行使調查權的組織與程序與上開司法院的解釋"},{"start":2650.607,"end":2670.462,"text":"立法院職權行使法修正條文第25條第二項、第51條之一第五項所定,拒絕答覆、拒絕證言或拒絕提供文件資料是有。第59條之五第一項所定,拒絕證言或表達意見是有。"},{"start":2672.53,"end":2695.589,"text":"並未包括國家機關獨立行使職權受憲法之保護者也未包括行政首長之行政特權更未包括檢查機關之偵查卷證令第47條第一項也未明定拒絕調查事由"},{"start":2696.451,"end":2724.469,"text":"均於司法院釋字第325號及585號以及729號解釋一旨不符而違反權力分立原則此外,第25條第二項及50條之一第五項又將該等拒絕事由的認定全權交由主席判斷將造成被質詢人及受調查者"},{"start":2727.391,"end":2743.568,"text":"現於應議會主席要求回答而違反保密義務以及為應議會主席要求回答而被移送彈劾懲戒或採取行政法的義務衝突"},{"start":2746.633,"end":2774.507,"text":"立法院職權行使法修正條文第45條第一項及第二項第47條第一項及第二項第59條之三第一項都規定立法院的要求法人團體或社會上有關係人員提供文件資料出席提供證言表達意見以及接受詢問"},{"start":2777.059,"end":2804.967,"text":"但是立法院行使何種憲法的職權必須強制人民配合並不明確而且不區分調查事由的目的一律科與人民強制接受調查的義務難為已屬最小的侵害手段又因為調查目的等相關規定的不明確"},{"start":2806.38,"end":2831.827,"text":"更難以衡量立法院所採強制調查人民的手段與予所達成的目的兼之公共利益是否相當此外,修正條文為就作為調查對象的法人、團體、社會上有關係人員的要件以及範圍予以限縮"},{"start":2833.583,"end":2860.479,"text":"將造成一般人民隨時可能被立法院要求提供資料出席作證表達意見均有質疑調查違反比例原則的情形。立法院職權行使法修正條文第五十條之一第五項第五十條之二第五十九條之四均規定"},{"start":2861.681,"end":2861.781,"text":"第五點"},{"start":2884.881,"end":2914.268,"text":"人事同意權的行使．導致憲法．法定機關職權行使．產生摯愛．而且與比例原則及正當法律程序不符。立法院職權行使法修正條文第29條第三項規定人事同意權案交付立法院全院委員會或相關委員會審查至交付審查之日起"},{"start":2915.726,"end":2943.552,"text":"期間不得少於一個月但是未規定最長的審查期間。審查期間過長將會影響憲法及法定機關的組織組成以及重要職務的選缺導致法定職權的行使產生摯愛。令修正條文第29條之一第三項及30條之三規定"},{"start":2945.885,"end":2973.721,"text":"被提名人應提出結文或拒絕第30條之一第二項則規定其罰則但是被提名人即尚未通過同意以及任命他並不具有公職身份在書面答覆時或列席說明時有答覆不實或提供虛偽資料情勢者"},{"start":2976.343,"end":3000.841,"text":"立法院應不同意其任免即可達到目的又被提名人為政府的重要職務的可能性人選在立法院審查時被科與拒絕的義務以及裁罰將形同將其視為一般有作證義務的證人顯屬地位的錯置處置的失衡"},{"start":3004.841,"end":3031.436,"text":"也不符比例的原則。大院將憲法或法律行使人事同意權時,被提名人並非均為熟人法律者,所以在被提名人提出結文或拒絕時,也應該充分告知他的權利義務以及違反的法律效果。"},{"start":3032.382,"end":3059.656,"text":"並得協同律師或相關人員協助但上開條文都無相關的規定實在是不符合正當法律程序。第六妨礙立法委員行使質詢權、調查權及舉行聽證會時之處罰規定有違法律明確性原則、正當法律程序以及比例原則"},{"start":3062.076,"end":3087.455,"text":"立法院職權行使法修正條文第25條第一項所定,質詢之答覆不得超過質詢範圍之外,反質詢與第二條所定的隱匿資訊、其他藐視國會之行為以及刑法第141條之一所定究其所知重要關係事項為虛偽陳述的定義"},{"start":3091.741,"end":3113.352,"text":"並不明確,不具可預見性,而且實務上質詢事項廣泛,答詢內容可能為法律的解釋、政策的說明或是輿論的回應,不一而主,未必皆與事實釐清或證明有關。"},{"start":3114.656,"end":3140.888,"text":"更常充滿主觀上的認知、期待、訴求等等涉及價值判斷之延遲而且質詢內容有可能屬於正在進行中的事件或基於錯誤訊息而來的此種情形如何認定政府人員的答詢是反質詢是隱匿資訊或者是"},{"start":3144.895,"end":3171.302,"text":"虛偽的陳述而科與法者除有違法法律明確性外執行上恐怕會爭議不斷國會質詢的制度是責任政治的具體表現與國會調查制度不同政府人員答覆內容不當應依其身份分別負行政責任或政治責任"},{"start":3172.492,"end":3197.515,"text":"只符合當前民主國家的政治與法律制度。修正條文直接予以處罰的規定有欠公平跟合理。立法院職權行使法修正條文第五十條之二第五十九條之四規定接受調查詢問的人員需經主席同意"},{"start":3198.584,"end":3225.023,"text":"於必要時使得協同律師或相關專業人員到場協助,削弱被調查人透過專業協助辨識其是否得以拒絕的能力。況當任會議主席之立法委員為求調查目的之達成,能否橫憑考量立法院職權之行使"},{"start":3226.992,"end":3243.644,"text":"與個人權益之保護也有疑慮。令立法院職權行使法修正條文第25條第5項、第59條之五第6項及刑法141條之一都未規定拒絕的程序"},{"start":3244.588,"end":3267.618,"text":"就克與緩緩或刑事處罰,均不能保障公務人員確實明瞭相應的法律責任,有違法律正當的法律程序。依司法院釋字第585號解釋,立法院行使調查權所附屬的強制權利,並以科處緩緩為限,"},{"start":3271.65,"end":3297.062,"text":"但《立法院職權行使法》修正條文第25條第9項第59條之五第5項刑法第141條之一對政府人員受質詢及出席聽證會為證言時為虛偽陳述除於行政法外又能刻以刑事處分以欲願、散開"},{"start":3298.689,"end":3322.735,"text":"司法院解釋意旨所揭示的合理的手段。最後在各種藐視國會行為的處罰構成要件不明確受規範者不具處罰可預見性而且正當法律程序均有欠缺之情況下可想見未來相關處罰規定在執行上"},{"start":3325.492,"end":3351.888,"text":"均有自愛即使定有司法救濟的途徑審判機關也難合理地進行判斷只是讓政治紛擾延伸到司法機關而已以上所舉都是違反憲法原理以致自愛難行之處均為最嚴重以及外界民眾最為詬病者"},{"start":3353.318,"end":3380.59,"text":"實際上相關法條修正的整體設計呈現了失衡跟失當難與權力分立原則契合行政院經審慎評估結果認為大院所通過的修法違反民主原則違反權力分立違反法律明確性違反比例原則以及違反法律的正當程序"},{"start":3383.258,"end":3409.617,"text":"卻有自愛難行之處嚴重影響人民的權利義務以及機關權限行使甚為巨大因此以憲法賦予行政院的職權就該兩項法案修正案及全部已請大院復議我衷心的期盼透過"},{"start":3411.004,"end":3438.212,"text":"法律案覆議的憲政程序各位委員先進都能夠體諒人民的心聲站在人民的立場以及向歷史負責的態度行政立法兩院攜手合作共同維護憲政體制及保障人權並以深化民主理性和諧的溝通對話"},{"start":3440.592,"end":3462.12,"text":"在乎憲政體制及憲法原則下積極追求國會改革真正的願景以上報告 懇請委員先進大力的支持我衷心期待這次覆議案的審查能夠順利圓滿讓所有國人對於"},{"start":3469.213,"end":3487.562,"text":"國家的行政、立法兩院之間的互動以及立法的品質對人民權利的保護再度的具有最大的信心謝謝各位委員先進拜託大家謝謝"},{"start":3493.449,"end":3513.411,"text":"謝謝主委長的報告報告全院委員會我們現在進行詢答每位委員詢答的時間為十分鐘以疾問疾答的方式進行輪到發言的委員如果不在場會被視為放棄首先我們請傅坤祺委員發言"},{"start":3539.473,"end":3566.301,"text":"委員長主席請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備選副委員好卓院長好本席再三向您提醒"},{"start":3567.481,"end":3594.45,"text":"這是過去30年來民進黨這些先進不斷地要求台灣要民主要陽光要透明要反貪腐讓國會能夠有能讓政府能夠有效率能夠連能所以過去不管是林作水也好沈富雄也好還有這麼多的民進黨的先進在30年前"},{"start":3595.137,"end":3622.415,"text":"推出希望能夠有國會聽證跟調查權我們現在看到這一代的民進黨對自己過去一再堅持的主張我們表示非常多的遺憾但是總院長既然提出了覆議案我們既然還是針對你所提出的七項我們逐一的來討論這個就是民進黨行政院所提出的圖卡沒有實質討論違反民主原則"},{"start":3623.362,"end":3625.783,"text":"這次的國會改革修法總共在委員會3月21號委員會專報4月1號委員會排審、詢答"},{"start":3648.693,"end":3659.783,"text":"4月3日、10日、11日三場公聽會4月15日委員會審查5月8日委員會草擬協商16日院會的草擬協商17日院長召集三次草擬協商5月17日、21日、24日、28日院會逐條審查經過13次的院會及委員會的審查及協商才三讀通過"},{"start":3674.895,"end":3700.381,"text":"院長哪裏有沒有經過實質討論?哪裏?謝謝副委員提醒五月十七、二十一、二十四、二十八那四天的院會逐條審查呈現什麼樣的狀況?就是為國人所詬病的整個討論的過程三場公聽會到底是誰舉辦?沒有關係院長齁這個你要持續堅持那本席就提醒你"},{"start":3701.511,"end":3709.749,"text":"十三次的院會委員會的討論才把國會的修法改革三讀通過如果你認為"},{"start":3711.388,"end":3728.562,"text":"十三次還不算有實質討論以後民進黨推出的法案要在本院通過那我們看要幾次討論十三次都不算有實質的討論那以後行政院提的法案我們逐一來檢視我們再看一下國務紀要費阿扁除罪花當時怎麼通過的快期法90條之一直接送出委員會"},{"start":3741.994,"end":3744.458,"text":"這就是民進黨再過來說誰贊成誰反對舉手投票誰知道這是基本常識"},{"start":3755.135,"end":3783.027,"text":"20172月3號國會頻道直播這是民進黨提案的從那天開始包括我們現在都是全國直播在這裡講什麼做什麼通通清清楚楚怎麼會沒有人知道院長如果齁你的國際常識不足的話本席可以來這邊給你尊尊教誨歐洲議會英國議會聯合國到現在都是舉手表決所以沒有什麼叫做舉手表決誰知道第二"},{"start":3784.591,"end":3809.27,"text":"混淆雙首長制,不可以質詢總統總統沒有接受立委質詢的義務來,我們來看一下影片,我不願意,不要,下一步請大家注意,立法院所有的質詢所有的報告總質詢還是委員會,都是極問極大的永遠面對所有的問題"},{"start":3813.652,"end":3824.234,"text":"又是民進黨的主張卓士競飛沒有關係這又是民進黨一貫的詐騙一貫的手法再過來獨裁別調查民眾聽證範圍過廣我們看這是第幾條這是立法院職權行使法修正後46條之二顯得很清楚立法院職權行使之前調查所有的目的事項範圍"},{"start":3844.195,"end":3866.535,"text":"通通寫得很清楚在訴訟中或審判中的立法院不得行使調查權範圍鑑定得非常清楚這個是案子是誰提的來我們播放一下為什麼當時沒有過這是你認為不適當的46條之二民進黨版本無意通過對不起是通過的民進黨的版本過去為什麼沒有過"},{"start":3868.208,"end":3886.24,"text":"就是不適當然後再過來末世正當法律程序違反程序正義請律師拒絕證言請問一下卓律師你是學法律我請問一下行使作法27條除非是犯罪嫌疑人才可以請律師"},{"start":3887.679,"end":3901.309,"text":"政人到法院可以請律師嗎而且來這裡立法院聽證的民眾都是有涉及跟政府相關有勾結立法院立案調查來這裡作證作證怎麼可以帶律師"},{"start":3903.49,"end":3919.837,"text":"但是你要科政府人員可以移送刑法．而且科人民直接的發法．百姓到立法院的聽證會．他是沒有刑責．只有政府官員有刑責"},{"start":3920.977,"end":3948.263,"text":"對保護人民的基本權利,一點水都不能放。無期限審查人事同意權,說立法院人事同意權空轉政府,癱瘓政府,限制機關的運作。我們修正的條文,叫做29條修正以後,立法院修審查期間,人事審查期間不得少一個月,並於院會表決前十天擬拒審查報告,有什麼不對?"},{"start":3949.363,"end":3951.785,"text":"修正前立法院依照憲法104條徵修條文第五條、第六條、第七條"},{"start":3965.578,"end":3983.743,"text":"不經討論,交全院委員會審查。審查後,初院會以吳敬平投票表決。今院會委員二分之一同意為之。之前有任何的期間嗎?原本就沒有期間。所以,行政院門口不說八道,原本就沒有期間的限制。再過來下一條。懷疑官員虛偽陳述,可以刻以刑責。"},{"start":3994.254,"end":4009.645,"text":"這個完全是詐騙行政院的詐騙這一條是刑法一百四十一條之一哪裏是立法院的職權行使法在這裏造謠我們再次的強調再次強調中午宣在立法院聽證部長部長本席不要請你回答中華民國憲法刑法中華民國刑法一百四十一條之一"},{"start":4024.349,"end":4044.758,"text":"公務員在立法院聽證或受質詢時虛偽陳述者處一年下游七年不是立法院來判他是送法院來處理我相信這個結論就是委員你不是檢察官啦你每個委員會都在做法院這個質詢不是辦案質詢的不是檢察在做調查的那一個國家的官員可以偽造文書可以偽證免罪的好 最後一條"},{"start":4052.991,"end":4058.882,"text":"藐視國會定義不明,施以擴大立法院權責,所謂反資訊與逆資訊何謂藐視國會?"},{"start":4065.382,"end":4071.967,"text":"委員長你聽懂我的問題嗎?你聽懂我剛才答詢嗎?是不是吵幹什麼?好屎!好屎!紅屎!聽懂了沒?我覺得真的非常的離譜齁!這不是第1會議就是台灣人的願望!"},{"start":4085.537,"end":4095.427,"text":"我怕到時候投降的第一個是你,第二個是蔡英文啊!"},{"start":4102.705,"end":4122.13,"text":"請問這樣子有沒有對委員人身攻擊?這個可以算不算?花蓮縣議會的質詢院長是國會委員花蓮縣議會的質詢院長如果你用這種態度在立法院你不但不是大師兄不但沒有調和鼎賴你用這種方式"},{"start":4123.03,"end":4130.898,"text":"你用這種方式,這是國會!如果你不是行政院長,你的水平是地方議會議員,你可以這麼做!所以,卓院長,請尊重你是行政院長!你不是地方議會議員!"},{"start":4142.889,"end":4161.34,"text":"請你面對國會,要謙卑,要調和鼎賴,要好好的把你的職務做好。最後再提醒你,面對國人,我只是一個國人而已,我只是一般的國人。是,中華民國總統按照憲法來宣誓就職,請不要再推兩國論,不要再推兩國論,不要再推兩國論,請不要超越質詢的範圍。謝謝副坤祺委員質詢,謝謝左院長的備詢。"},{"start":4171.926,"end":4200.96,"text":"接下來,我們請登記第二號黃國昌委員之尋。謝謝院長。是不是麻煩有請行政院院長、左院長。再請左院長備選。"},{"start":4208.701,"end":4235.064,"text":"黃委員好院長好覆議案的提出上一次是在十年之前這個是非常嚴肅的憲政問題只不過今天只有十分鐘我具體的要請教我非常的遺憾我們的行政院已經成為了假訊息散播的中心充斥著假訊息這是行政院所提出來的七大覆議原因"},{"start":4235.845,"end":4257.683,"text":"藉由行政院的院會散播這個圖卡到臺灣每一個公民的手上我要第一個請教卓院長的事情是你們說懷疑公務員虛偽陳述就可以刻意刑責請問目前所通過的法律有哪一個懷疑公務員虛偽陳述就可以刻意刑責請說明"},{"start":4261.069,"end":4277.257,"text":"法律案件、法律內容我請部長說明各位委員報告那個刑法第五章之一那個憑名描述國會罪以及那個刑法141條之一的這個這次立法院通過的這些條文"},{"start":4278.918,"end":4296.87,"text":"這個是委員知道齁 這個質詢齁 質詢不能 質詢這個跟調查不一樣 質詢也不是檢管辦案 也不是法官辦案所以呢來我先請教一下部長啦 不要移轉問題的焦點嘛而且那個 而且質詢的內容是非常廣泛的 是包容萬象的 是不是跟我們先往那個執政追責 是特定的犯罪事實"},{"start":4304.176,"end":4305.857,"text":"法官或懷疑他虛偽陳述就判他刑責嗎?"},{"start":4332.26,"end":4340.343,"text":"這是我們法官暫定犯罪的標準嗎?來先停一下齁你們的圖卡是說懷疑新聞陳述就會科與刑責啊什麼叫科與刑責?那個判刑確定嘛檢察官會因為懷疑就起訴嗎?法官會因為懷疑就判刑確定嗎?來請教院長這個明顯就是違反了"},{"start":4361.738,"end":4362.799,"text":"法律明確性的原則"},{"start":4378.198,"end":4398.577,"text":"要在有代證事項的前提之下代證事項有沒有虛偽陳述嘛那這個代證事項有沒有虛偽陳述是不是法官判的是還是不是是主觀認定的是法官主觀認定的所以按照院長您的說法在立法院裡面是立法院可以行責還是法院可以行責"},{"start":4399.318,"end":4417.788,"text":"立法院不是司法機關所以我們才需要檢察官起訴才需要法院判刑嘛現在中華民國的法院有哪一個對你剛所講的代證事實構成要件虛偽陳述是只要懷疑"},{"start":4418.428,"end":4439.376,"text":"就可以被判刑確定,這很嚴重耶!你說清楚講明白,我要再移轉問題的章節!我希望立法院也不要這樣的做,我們是希望這樣子,重新審慎條文內容的文字。而且委員的質詢的內容,可能是來一種有錯誤的訊息的話。是沒有辦法回答你們自己所散佈出來的假訊息吧!我已經回答了,是你沒有聽到!"},{"start":4440.711,"end":4457.097,"text":"我已經回答了你的回答是什麼?中華民國的法院因為懷疑就會科與刑責?委員我們在講的是中華民國的立法院中華民國立法院不會科與刑責啊只有中華民國的法院會啊但是這個懷疑這個懷疑就是主公的認定立法委員不是檢察官的所以起訴的不是立法委員起訴的是檢察官啊"},{"start":4467.292,"end":4489,"text":"請訴的是檢察官啊檢察官會因為懷疑就起訴嗎來請教部長但是被追究被調查被偵辦的話這對官員是一個很大的一個危害了對你可以這樣講但你不可以說只懷疑就可以行責嘛來我們來看一下施改國事會議你們那個時候對美國聯邦法不好意思我再講話你一定要插嘴嗎"},{"start":4490.18,"end":4495.947,"text":"院長可不可以控制一下時間請暫停,這樣子秩序沒有辦法進行,院長你也可以看得出來,我都會給他們時間回答。"},{"start":4507.341,"end":4530.021,"text":"你到底是插話還是有請求部長有沒有針對問題回答全國人民透過直播都看得到請院長主持一下秩序時間暫停跟黃委員報告一下跟院長報告一下也跟所有的委員報告一下全院委員會所有的詢答用疑問疑答方式進行委員與官員共同使用詢答時間那麼委員詢問完畢之後再由官員來"},{"start":4534.484,"end":4551.257,"text":"答覆因此請委員跟官員彼此互相尊重也請官員特別拜託不要有搶答的情況黃委員請繼續好謝謝院長來進一步請教斯卡國式法務部所提出的會議資料依照美國聯邦法18條USC1001條的規定在國會"},{"start":4556.161,"end":4566.63,"text":"為虛偽陳述的時候除五年以下有期徒刑來請教一下院長或部長這樣子美國法的規範依照你們的標準有沒有違反法律明確性有沒有違反政黨法律程序"},{"start":4567.602,"end":4567.782,"text":"我為什麼會援引這個?"},{"start":4588.777,"end":4611.068,"text":"因為他的法律構成要件跟我們寫在刑法一百四十一條之一就一模一樣嘛!所以我才問你嘛!依照你們行政部法務部...不好意思不好意思院長這樣子我要怎麼質詢下去我問題都還沒有講完部長就要插嘴干擾我的質詢沒有關係啊我們都是法律人依法論法把事情講清楚就好了來!"},{"start":4612.628,"end":4634.774,"text":"這個構成要件依照部長您精湛的法學素養請教一下跟我們所通過的刑法一百四十四條之一哪裏不一樣請說明哪裏不一樣我們是五權憲法的國家所以你的意思是我國是五權憲法他們是三權分立所以政府現在勇敢於虛偽陳述我們國會的調查權事章構成要件哪裏不一樣請說明"},{"start":4641.636,"end":4650.706,"text":"我們國會的調查權齁,我們國會的調查權是在根據它是585號解釋,它只是一個補充性的一個權利而已,它最多只是一個科處罰判。法律要件不明確嘛,那我就問你"},{"start":4656.613,"end":4665.119,"text":"美國法的規範跟我們刑法一百四十四條一百四十一條之一哪裏構成要件不一樣這麼簡單的問題都回答不出來喔"},{"start":4686.753,"end":4705.374,"text":"在聯邦或邦的立法機關的調查委員會為虛偽陳述就涉及未經宣示的虛偽陳述而言是用一百五十三條一百五十三條的規範是什麼未經宣示的虛偽陳述三個月以上五年以下有期度性這個是德國新發展的規定來請教一家部長"},{"start":4706.455,"end":4725.053,"text":"這樣的構成要件跟我們所通過的構成要件哪裏不一樣請說明各位委員報告德國並沒有質詢需要說要入罪的質詢的內容它是根據質詢顯示根據憲法徵修條是三條第一項第一款而來的來我們再看一下立法機關的調查委員會文書的陳述我現在在請教你的是構成要件哪裏不一樣嗎"},{"start":4729.858,"end":4755.276,"text":"你怎麼會成為一個法律人不管不敢針對問題回答呢?好!所以你今天的立論就是五權分立跟三權分立五權分立跟三權分立你當作他入罪的一個法律人要見明確不明確大家心裡都有巴适來!我們接下來再看你說無限期審查人事同意權現行的條文有針對人事同意權的審查設上線嗎?"},{"start":4756.721,"end":4761.245,"text":"有嗎?而且我的問題是我們現行條文有設上限嗎?我們現行的條文有沒有設上限?現在沒有設上限你也同意嗎?"},{"start":4775.473,"end":4795.158,"text":"現在的條文有沒有設上線嗎?沒有嘛!所以按照你的看法,現行的條文是不是也違憲?只要沒有設上線,就是無限期!只要沒有設上線,就是違憲!我在請教的是,這是不是我們新任行政院院長的"},{"start":4796.338,"end":4819.409,"text":"發言委員你為什麼不設上線呢?對嘛!所以你認為現行的條文也違憲嘛!來!為什麼不設上線?我們來看一下2008年6月的時候馬英九提名司法院院長、副院長、監察院院長、副院長整個審查的期限喔前後一個例行12天一個例經19天來請教教院長你認為符合民主程序嗎?"},{"start":4821.001,"end":4849.746,"text":"你認為這樣符不符合民主程序?當年監察院的委員的行使也是這樣子所以你認為符不符合民主程序?如果立法院、大院真的要設一個好的可以好好的來討論要不要掌權、要不要設下程?這樣子的審查有沒有符合民主程序?程序要完整整套這樣的審查有沒有符合民主程序?剛剛委員拿德國、美國的對不起我現在用台灣的例子問你你又不回答來我們來看一下當初的賴清德是怎麼講的"},{"start":4850.836,"end":4863.366,"text":"人事同意權像趕鴨趕雞一樣趕,光憑一點資料就進行審查,這個要立委如何審查?一個月喔!你就說沒有設上限,就是無限期審查,我對於行政院造謠生事、散播假訊息這樣的行為深感不齒"},{"start":4873.964,"end":4876.706,"text":"接下來我們請登記第三號吳思瑤委員質詢"},{"start":4911.621,"end":4911.701,"text":"請卓院長備詢"},{"start":4937.844,"end":4960.078,"text":"委員長辛苦了。擴權不是改革,民主不能放水,所以本席吳思瑤我支持行政院的覆議案。我相信公委若是有道理就不用大聲聲。今天我在這裡,我不會拍桌,我也不會從頭到尾用著食指對著您。"},{"start":4961.019,"end":4987.222,"text":"我也一樣不會禁止您插嘴我歡迎隨時反質詢質詢就是相互的交流跟對話我更不會在這裡公然散佈假訊息因為時間有限那我盡可能最後給您綜合答覆的時間那我會努力的論述這段時間擴權法案的諸多弊端下一頁"},{"start":4988.936,"end":5014.83,"text":"沒有討論不是民主既然國會不討論就讓社會來討論所以行政院提出的覆議案就是讓國會也好讓社會也好重新來審視這樣的擴權惡法他是一個review他是一個rediscussion他是一個revaluation所以"},{"start":5015.765,"end":5042.507,"text":"我認為他是一個議案的延長賽更是一個全台灣深化民主的全民公民課那院長我問您喔您對於覆議案的行使有多大的把握表決的結果我說過委員都是經過人民票選出來的身上都應該有民主的DNA我對人性充滿了樂觀我相信人類有高尚的心理"},{"start":5043.373,"end":5065.483,"text":"很好我們保持這樣正向的相信的力量下一頁明氣可用啊事實上我認為就算表決會輸但是論述要贏我們更要贏得社會民心這一周連續兩個民調都告訴我們中華亞太精英交流協會的民調"},{"start":5066.744,"end":5095.833,"text":"他的數據是百分之六十一點四的人民是支持行政院提覆議案而六月十七號台灣民意基金會最新的民調也呈現高達五成二的人民是支持行政院提覆議案所以行政院提的覆議案具有強大的民意基礎具有高度的民意支持我認為在民意的加持之下我們會有正面的成果繼續努力下一頁"},{"start":5096.806,"end":5123.709,"text":"但是今天也是一個再論述的機會我要把握時間還原很多的事實真相在野黨說過去八年民進黨國會多數國會改革交白券嗎?過去民進黨在立法院從來沒有排審任何的國會改革法案嗎?這是造謠這是造謠這是嚴重的造謠下一頁"},{"start":5125.823,"end":5132.372,"text":"黃國昌打臉了黃國昌喔黃國昌在6月4號上節目的時候說一套他說"},{"start":5134.517,"end":5162.002,"text":"第九屆司法法治委員會是段宜康但是段宜康就是不排案啊不排案就沒有辦法審查但是事實上黃國昌自己知道他是故意講錯的他早在今年4月1號司法法治委員會審查國會擴權法案的時候他在提案說明的時候他自己就說了2016年3月10號那時的國會司法法治委員會"},{"start":5163.122,"end":5185.265,"text":"開始排審立法院職權行使法誰排審的當時的召委是民進黨的段宜康所以呢黃國昌上節目騙小草說民進黨不排案結果自己在司法法治委員會針對議案進行提案說明的時候從自己的嘴巴說民進黨當時段宜康有排審"},{"start":5186.711,"end":5214.946,"text":"黃國昌打臉自己公然造謠臉不痛臉不腫嗎我在用數字來回應社會當時2016年民進黨排審國會改革法案總共委員會排審了7次朝野共提75個議案而完成委員會的審查有39案這些議事錄都可查所以民進黨負責任的推動國會改革下一頁"},{"start":5215.782,"end":5236.233,"text":"也因為民進黨第九屆負責任的第一次的國會多數我們開始來進行國會的改革經過朝野的合作努力我們完成了立法院組織法第三條要求立法院正副院長要議事中立退出政黨活動當時立法之後修法之後"},{"start":5237.013,"end":5248.459,"text":"蘇嘉祺人、尤錫堃都身體力行我們也非常期待韓國瑜院長也應當遵循立法院組織法第三條來捍衛議事中立"},{"start":5249.434,"end":5272.441,"text":"民進黨主導的國會改革還包括通過了立法院組織法第五條就是現在大家都把觀看國會直播成為民主的日常的這件事情我們不只委員會全程直播連過去都被詬病的協商、黑箱、黑箱協商也都全程直播這是非常難能可貴的國會改革民進黨做到了"},{"start":5275.282,"end":5303.25,"text":"我也謝謝剛剛傅昆奇總召他有說國會直播都看得到審查謝謝傅昆奇肯定了民進黨推動的國會直播完成落實我們的透明公開在國會民進黨的國會改革還包括完成了立法院議事規則61條歡迎所有的公民朋友經過申請可以列席委員會來旁聽列席院會來旁聽所以當我們享受這些國會透明公開的民主日常的時候"},{"start":5304.19,"end":5325.51,"text":"民進黨不居功但是這是過去立法院2016以來努力的國會改革的成果下一頁但確實民進黨在國會改革沒有辦法拿到一百分因為當時的提案有違憲之餘沒有人可以站在憲法的對立面我們重新審視"},{"start":5327.071,"end":5353.633,"text":"也因為欠缺社會的共識我們也非常的自制重新審視所以民進黨國會多數的時候不會因為是多數席次就強行表決強行碾壓所以國會改革確實有未盡之業所以我們這一屆再接再厲下葉但非常遺憾這一次推動的不是改革是擴權"},{"start":5355.234,"end":5363.433,"text":"法案大小眼沒有辦法病案審查現在民進黨法案持續被丟包持續不見天日從來沒有發生過"},{"start":5365.185,"end":5384.835,"text":"城市不正義從委員會黨團協商到韓院長主持的朝野協商對不起 院長 半次協商 半個條文都沒有協商前所未見 沒收的實質討論黑箱橋條文過去反黑箱的黃國昌現在成為搞黑箱的元兇"},{"start":5386.056,"end":5409.244,"text":"沒有透明公開意識不中立違反了意識規則甚至表決不公平一路做票做到底舉手投票是需要可否雙決的韓院長主持的舉手投票從來沒有可否雙決這就是違反意識規則違反主持的中立下一頁"},{"start":5410.714,"end":5431.847,"text":"我再用具體的數字藍白牆推擴權法案黨編自己的審查也是虛硬故事啊剛剛傅昆奇總召說排了好幾次的委員會審查事實上進行條文實質審查只有4月15號那一天我們來看看4月15號條文實質審查的那一天傅昆奇從頭到尾發言60秒他講了177個字"},{"start":5437.995,"end":5459.793,"text":"黃國昌在逐條審查了司法法制委員會的4月15的當天他的發言只有25秒習字如今只講了106個字用常識判斷這樣子的發言時間跟發言的次數是認真在審查法案嗎?黨團協商的時候"},{"start":5461.301,"end":5476.141,"text":"吳宗憲、張維主持的黨團協商全文六十八條指進行的四個條文就因為黃國昌起身提早離席所以黨團協商被打包最後一個朝野協商我再一次要挑戰韓國瑜院長"},{"start":5477.623,"end":5494.115,"text":"立法院三十年來您上任三個月就破了國會三十年來沒有的國會惡例從來沒有任何一個法案沒有經過院長的朝野協商實質審查就進行表決但是發生在韓國瑜院長的手上"},{"start":5495.031,"end":5517.81,"text":"所以這是什麼審查無怪乎親咬們社會的人士說沒有討論不是民主更何況我們在處理國會改革欸何其丟臉這是國會改革嗎下一頁我時間有限後面很多實質內容沒有辦法論述我再一次說就表決前的四次院會民進黨的委員登記發言了2844次"},{"start":5520.732,"end":5543,"text":"二八四四人次但是都被藍白強行表決聽之討論真的可以站上來這個神聖的意識天堂發言的只有73人次換言之97.5%的最終發言又被沒收隊長抱歉時間只有10分鐘我們持續努力謝謝場外的或是線上的青鳥朋友們我們不會放棄努力如果要"},{"start":5549.906,"end":5577.244,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":5579.036,"end":5581.098,"text":"第四號,洪孟楷委員發言"},{"start":5617.932,"end":5620.678,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請中太院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":5628.627,"end":5655.219,"text":"委員長今天針對覆議案的部分來跟您就質詢先請教一下昨天一份最新的民調台灣民主基金會他所做短短不到一個月520賴政府上任到現在剛好一個月的時間賴總統的聲望重挫了9.8%流失等於是上任不到一個月流失近兩百萬人的支持是不是一個嚴重的警訊"},{"start":5656.107,"end":5664.662,"text":"我們賴著體系一個月就讓台灣有兩百萬的人民失去信心有沒有檢討的必要我今天沒有準備這個內容"},{"start":5666.61,"end":5666.73,"text":"主席"},{"start":5693.876,"end":5695.157,"text":"本席就來針對你的報告事項裡面來說,其實"},{"start":5708.684,"end":5735.917,"text":"我很重視的是說到底你提出來的覆議案的一個程序裡面有沒有摯愛難行之處我先請教你在開宗明義第三頁裡面就講是說民主議事程序除了多數決議決以外亦要尊重跟保護少數少數服從多數多數尊重少數這是民主的一個常規嘛那我再請教在您看過這個立院職權行使法裡面我們到底通過了幾條條文"},{"start":5737.523,"end":5752.022,"text":"我剛剛已經在我們立院職權行使法這邊通過幾條條文幾條條文我沒有唸但每一條條文我可以再唸一次不用 你不用唸一次或者說你既然你會提出來覆議案很負責任提出來嘛"},{"start":5752.563,"end":5775.497,"text":"本席以及我們院長在這邊高達四天完整的院會我們通過表決每一次的表決還有民進黨團反覆要求點名表決、記名表決然後反覆杯葛四天完整的院會我們送到了行政院行政院竟然已經提出了覆議案代表你認為每一條你都看過你也認為說裡面有摯愛難情之處啊我現在只是很簡單的請教通過幾條條文"},{"start":5777.53,"end":5797.951,"text":"委員非常抱歉44條條文通過44條條文裡面有幾條是民進黨黨團的版本我重視的是文字不是數字很好每一條的文字我都會看每一條的文字就跟你討論文字總共加起來那是算數問題院長來沒有問題院長你講說少數要保護尊重少數請教立法院少數是誰"},{"start":5799.008,"end":5825.958,"text":"少數是民眾黨跟民進黨民眾黨民進黨太好了來我們來看一下那個條文裡面版本有沒有保護跟尊重民眾黨跟民進黨來請看15支4條是按照國民黨團跟民眾黨團所提出來版本通過的所以這算不算是已經結合多數我們看到17條是國民黨民眾黨跟民進黨的版本通過的我更印象深刻第17條的時候"},{"start":5827.961,"end":5829.101,"text":"我以為你誤會我的意思了"},{"start":5847.446,"end":5868.345,"text":"不是,你先看我們舊法條論法條這都是刪讀通過後的版本我們現在講舊法條論法條因為你在第三頁開宗明義講說大院沒有尊重沒有保護少數貴院在委員會協商沒有實質的審議跟討厭所以我們現在在講啊"},{"start":5869.059,"end":5880.627,"text":"我要看的是條文裡面總共通過44條,44條裡面有哪幾條是民進黨的版本?跟委員說明,是形成這個條文的過程沒有經過遵從條數。對,我說的內容是形成這個條文的過程沒有經過遵從條數。"},{"start":5892.374,"end":5893.455,"text":"委員長,我覺得一個行政院長那麼高的高度"},{"start":5913.085,"end":5927.604,"text":"會在公開的報告書上面指責說貴院並沒有實質的審議跟討論這是很嚴重的事情我也非常不願意所以我們才會講嘛當條文通過之後到底哪一些條文是沒有我給你一個數字喔"},{"start":5929.226,"end":5943.538,"text":"44條裡面總共有12條實質修正是通過民進黨團的版本而裡面有4條是3個黨團共同修正動議的版本總共4條真正獨立只有國民黨團的版本通過的只有一條"},{"start":5945.28,"end":5960.456,"text":"換言之在這一次的修法的時候總共44條裡面真正國民黨團表決通過國民黨團動議版本只有一條有12條是民進黨團的版本這怎麼沒有尊重少數呢?"},{"start":5960.976,"end":5969.641,"text":"委員你繼續劃錯我的狀態我們的對話就會非常的困難院長 本席現在在質詢你不用反質詢 院長本席現在是就事論事就條文論條文告訴你為什麼你提出來的意見其實是跟事實不相符的院長 因為你沒有針對本席的問題來回答問題嘛來 院長 再來"},{"start":5986.93,"end":5987.23,"text":"委員應該知道"},{"start":6012.011,"end":6012.471,"text":"你沒有辦法回答問題"},{"start":6040.467,"end":6050.702,"text":"也沒有官員想要上來就假因為官員也不知道是誰主持是不是我第一次看到行政院長那麼孤立然後沒有官員要上來就假是不是官員也不知道公聽會是誰主持"},{"start":6051.67,"end":6078.225,"text":"因為你的問題不是官員能回答的啊我的問題不是官員可以回答官員沒有參加公聽會即便是那官員是蔡英文政府時代的官員但是至少我們現在法務部長至少我們現在相關部會首長也都應該了解啊不然你怎麼會提出復議案呢所以現在行政院院長就直接用他的反應來告訴我們其實你提出復議案但是你沒有了解中間的審議過程但你直接就講本席直接告訴你"},{"start":6080.507,"end":6106.121,"text":"來公聽會一場吳宗憲委員主持兩場民進黨的召委鍾嘉斌委員主持所以換言之這些公聽會不也是經過國民黨民進黨兩黨的委員共同來協助來增訂修法的過程嗎?這樣子到底哪裡有不尊重少數以及不保護少數?來您剛剛沒有回答我的問題也不用再回答再來我請教"},{"start":6107.776,"end":6136.063,"text":"你第五點特別有講到人事同意權行使恐導致摯愛難行因為現在修法通過之後我們要求是期限審議不少於一個月所以你認為你們的意見是說你認為如果說沒有限制一個什麼時候一定要審理的話有可能會無限期延長是這個意思嗎有這種疑慮有這個疑慮那我請教現行法令有哪一條法令人事同意權是有限制期限的"},{"start":6136.854,"end":6164.412,"text":"所以現行法律是都沒有這種期限的限制那為什麼獨獨這一次要不得少於一個月就是因為過去有委員認為是說人事同意權相對來講非常的重要所以說希望有一個期限來做審議但是沒有無限延長啊可是您現在你們的講法是現行的法律都至愛難行喔所以換言之你們現在提出來覆議的講法是連現行的法律都要推翻是這個意思嗎法律上故意舉一個"},{"start":6168.434,"end":6180.142,"text":"本席特別跟您請教我記得兩個禮拜以前我們在這邊總質詢會提出來5月31號的時候我說NCC的委員人事同意有沒有經過您您當時怎麼回答"},{"start":6180.933,"end":6182.293,"text":"我處理覆議案的事情之後我們下禮拜"},{"start":6208.655,"end":6233.684,"text":"最短時間你那時候講是說你總執行結束之後我說要不要兩個禮拜你說可能不用最短時間內提出新的NCC委員名單但到目前為止我不知道你是不是改口了或是說你是認為這四位NCC那如果說不是的話你怎麼會認為說現在人是在立法院呢照理講你就應該要行政院趕快再提出名單否則這不就才是真正拖延人事同意權審查權嗎你沒有送進來"},{"start":6237.058,"end":6254.282,"text":"所以,你講的第五點所謂的無限期延長根本也不是理由因為現行的法例就沒有任何一個人事同意權是有限定期限的這就是現行法令的規定這也就是行政部門應該要尊重立法部門的部分謝謝"},{"start":6266.638,"end":6272.248,"text":"謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員時間的關係謝謝洪孟凱委員的諮詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第五號張祺凱委員諮詢"},{"start":6327.18,"end":6344.326,"text":"謝謝主席請左院長麻煩再請左院長備選黨委員好左院長你好我剛才聽你的報告"},{"start":6346.837,"end":6359.083,"text":"我覺得你跟民進黨現在是不是恐懼改革,選擇失意恐懼改革,選擇失意今天是賴清德總統上任剛剛滿一個月,他現在就在開記者會我們來喚醒賴清德總統跟你的記憶你剛才說了,這個質詢是質詢總統違憲"},{"start":6376.633,"end":6376.993,"text":"賴清德總統"},{"start":6394.997,"end":6411.898,"text":"中通商業型電視辯論會他這個是對著全國的民眾對著每一個國人講的話他怎麼說?他說我也要利用這個機會、這個時間澄清一下剛剛侯市長說我不願意到立法院接受國情諮詢"},{"start":6413.716,"end":6441.211,"text":"這是錯的這是假信息因為不管是根據憲法或者根據立法院職權行使法總統都有義務應立院要求到國會去進行國情報告接受立法委員的國情諮詢但是並不是一對一的諮詢我一字不漏是,沒錯啊,很正確那總統跟他情形徹徹不關係"},{"start":6443.755,"end":6464.253,"text":"憲法,不管是立法院職權行使法,它都要來在判議啊。那為什麼你現在說,反正我們提出來你說是違憲。憲法正規二條文第四條,第三項的規定,立法院於每年集會時得得聽取總統國情報告,可以。你沒有跟上進度耶,院長。"},{"start":6465.723,"end":6479.949,"text":"那總統講的是清清楚楚不管是憲法、立法院職權行使法他都有義務喔!他有義務來立法院接受國情報告之外還要接受立法院的國情職權那個唯一一個我今年來沒有跟上進度是什麼地方?"},{"start":6481.261,"end":6507.526,"text":"這是他講他的義務而且依法他講說什麼唯一的不是要一對一立法院現在通過了依序就是各個政黨質詢阿像民政黨八個人不是一對一喔執行完以後看他要不要打看總統要不要打國民黨五十二個立法委員執行完以後他要不要打而且我們在協商都講過阿充分尊重總統的看法我們坐下來好好協商"},{"start":6508.837,"end":6526.534,"text":"我告訴你,這個是選舉前,所以要來立法院報告,選後提附議案,拒絕被選這項,選情三明海寫,選六個雜名拍寫這個是賴清德上任以後自打嘴巴的第一個跳票喔,我提醒,提醒卓院長"},{"start":6527.918,"end":6545.853,"text":"如果那總統是跳票的總統他民調還會繼續掉一個月已經掉了10%了如果他是個跳票的總統說話沒算話民調還會繼續掉來我再提醒一下我們看下一張我希望憲法的規定委員要講清楚才在這邊發言啦看清楚憲法的規定跟執行行使法"},{"start":6554.54,"end":6559.924,"text":"你還記得民主人員嗎?你還記得他們嗎?我對他們的尊敬絕對比委員不會少今年一過剛剛離開我們的市民的肉依還有新蓋縣的還有民進黨的一集的黨主席江澎堅"},{"start":6578.407,"end":6584.53,"text":"國安改革是讓國會更有效率、立法品質更高、大家更清廉,這才是國會改革來,我們來看什麼叫做國會改革,什麼叫做民進黨有的良心,我們來學習一下民進黨的良心"},{"start":6607.708,"end":6629.817,"text":"你們的理論大師啊,林守水怎麼說?他說國會改革啊,已經等三十年的好事。蘇煥智怎麼說?國會改革通過了台灣民主的里程碑。游盈隆啊,游盈隆其實做民調時都對你算不錯的。游盈隆怎麼說?藐視國會罪啊,57%是贊成的。民進黨輸掉了民調,也輸掉了民心。"},{"start":6634.215,"end":6643.68,"text":"今天最新民調,公務員藐視國會稅還往上升高一點點,57.5另外還有一個人,這人很重要,對他來說很重要,你看看這人怎麼說這個話,對你來講很重要他說人性都不喜歡被監督,可是有監督才會有進步結果民進黨現在反監督"},{"start":6663.24,"end":6679.106,"text":"反民主這什麼人說話我給你看好不好來我給你看這是你大師兄的師父嘛你師父你會記得啊人需要監督監督要合法合憲合法合情合法合憲可是你看"},{"start":6682.113,"end":6709.842,"text":"第一是全盤的推翻國會改革,然後國會前面的過去黨國時代的親自監督還造謠推翻的國會改革跟改革好,摸著良心講話啦,說實在,我知道你是理性的好,這次還有一個很重要的點這次你們反改革,反國會改革是民進黨自己打臉自己的民進黨民進黨這些人都曾經要求過國會改革"},{"start":6711.365,"end":6735.109,"text":"從早期民國八十二年,沈富雄提版本的時候,阿扁亞總統、戈武烈叔夫、謝長廷、戈武大學在這裡的老柯,都是共同提案人。到了一百零一年,林佳龍提國會改革方案的時候,立法院職權行使法右下角那幾個人,黃偉哲、職權行使法副院長鄭麗金,"},{"start":6740.017,"end":6746.604,"text":"陳廷飛,你今年現在在幹什麼?連蔡英文在總統大選的時候105年提了很多國會改革的方案,你們有做嗎?"},{"start":6761.929,"end":6766.97,"text":"國會改革是不是沒有人會反對國會改革是不是沒有人會反對國會改革的初心把它找回來沒有人反對國會改革啊"},{"start":6785.992,"end":6813.431,"text":"這個引起很大的爭議權,就是你剛剛講的。他們的主張跟現在不一樣,這個才是重點。不是國會改革是個字。不要讓某子一蓋,整個社會就跟著這樣走,這樣是不對的。立法院沒有實質審查嗎?我告訴你,民進黨現在是怎麼樣?你贏了你不能買,你知道嗎?民進黨在公投法以前,政府惡毒,那時候是國民黨的立委不在的,還在裡面的。前瞻預算計畫八千八百億,"},{"start":6815.053,"end":6834.55,"text":"那陣的經濟委員會召集委員民進黨的邱毅英直接就包裹就表決啦你們那時候有任何有吭聲嗎?我們再看下一張你說這次沒有實質的審查一場專報,剛才林副跟你講一場專報兩場委員會討論三場公聽會,裡面有兩場那剛剛吳思堯委員的講法你也應該聽清楚啊吳思堯委員講得很清楚啊,大家都應該聽清楚啊剛才聶小宇跟你講"},{"start":6843.871,"end":6855.227,"text":"行政院要接受監督你現在是太上行政院耶你是俄華對不對誰是太上行政院你看看我是太上行政院"},{"start":6857.711,"end":6871.581,"text":"立法院是監督制衡,幫人民監督制衡行政院,結果你現在子酸道士,你連我們的程序都管耶!你親蒙打喔!你如果自愛來行,你是學法的,自愛來行是針對內容對不對?所以剛才說過了嘛,你有沒有自拔嘴巴,來,我們跳到最後兩章,其實啦,"},{"start":6886.018,"end":6895.625,"text":"一定要講,其實人民的要求很卑微,就是要真相嘛你貴庭對你就是民進黨一黨獨大,有多少案子,案無天日"},{"start":6898.176,"end":6910.486,"text":"行政院也只是要求重新審視騰訊的延遲延遲而已這次為什麼要國會改革?這次為什麼要國會改革?這個要官員的維持這部分有監察院來處理若判罪的話有司法、有司法檢調機關來處理所以國會要改革,這個民進黨欸我跟你講台灣人民最正經管他知道你行政權不希望陽光射進來把立案掀開"},{"start":6926.26,"end":6927.68,"text":"我們支持國會改革,國會改革要有效率,要有立法品質"},{"start":6956.948,"end":6967.517,"text":"謝謝張啟凱委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長的備詢接下來我們請登記第六號鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":6988.889,"end":7011.005,"text":"主席在質詢開始之前請求院長來落實執行立法院職權行使法第24條及第25條我在這裡唸給院長聽第24條規定職權之提出以說明其執行之主旨為限我待會會指明我的執行主旨如果我講的內容超過了這個規定主席要制止我,可以嗎?"},{"start":7012.006,"end":7040.709,"text":"另外二十五條規定,質詢的答覆不得已超出質詢的範圍之外,如果待會行政院的官員答覆超出我質詢的範圍之外,也要請主席制止。可以嗎?好,謝謝。好,那麼就有請我們院長,還有法務部正部長。麻煩再請左院長備詢,也請法務部備詢。那請問政務委員可以上台嗎?可以。可以嗎?"},{"start":7041.716,"end":7052.414,"text":"院長我不清楚因為他坐在前面因為憲法第57條是說部會首長"},{"start":7054.164,"end":7068.451,"text":"今天是邀請行政院院長列席說明是依據立法院職權行使法第33條之規定,需由院長說明。委員如果不需要部會首長補充說明,就請相關部會首長不要回答。答案可就近,提供院長資料。"},{"start":7079.724,"end":7081.525,"text":"國會濫權不能冒充國會改革這是我質詢的主旨"},{"start":7110.396,"end":7135.527,"text":"請教卓文哲院長您應該知道我是支持行政院覆議的,是不是?謝謝委員好,但是我很慶幸有行政院來提出覆議原因呢是在於我覺得立法院送出了一個身為立法委員我認為制定的很差的法律但是我們沒有其他的方法只有透過行政院提出覆議支持他成功後我們才有能力去改變這個法律您同意嗎?"},{"start":7136.447,"end":7137.988,"text":"我希望我能夠轉首先請教一下"},{"start":7166.465,"end":7182.083,"text":"美國的國會議員可以質詢官員嗎?美國的官員嗎?聯邦政府的官員嗎?在國會裡面也有聽證的制度等等但是聽證的制度不是質詢對不對?那請問英國的內閣制有在野黨質詢內閣的嗎?"},{"start":7186.271,"end":7207.567,"text":"是,因為他們是內閣制,所以質詢的閣議員本身也是國會議員,地位是平等的。所以很遺憾,為什麼你們在這裡我要質詢你,我看到前面的質詢,這不是一個對等的關係。根據憲法第57條,行政院依索列規定向立法院負責,包括立法委員可以質詢行政院長跟部會首長,是不是這樣?"},{"start":7208.388,"end":7233.257,"text":"但是我們第七十五條規定,立法院不得兼任官吏,所以各位不是立法委員,我們的地位上就是不一樣,您同意嗎?這個憲法的設計是如此是的,那在這樣的制度設計下,剛剛有一位副總召,他提說呢,他在刪除的發言我唯一查得到,他對今天的法律的發言呢,就在刑法一百條意圖判斷都已經取消了,民進黨還用意圖犯來辦我請問一下院長或部長,什麼是意圖犯?"},{"start":7235.592,"end":7263.74,"text":"意圖犯就是內心想的都還沒有認為刑處於外那請問你知道副總召當時違反政交法違反衛照文書他是意圖沒有著手還是他的什麼犯刑被法院判刑下一頁他是不是意圖犯他是意圖炒股後找人頭家買賣他是因為找人頭家買賣被判刑是不是這樣子所以不是因為意圖的思想而是因為他實際的這樣的炒股行為您了解嗎"},{"start":7266.118,"end":7292.618,"text":"你可能不便回答,那我來告訴你齁這是他的判決書啦那我們要關心的就是說我們今天送出一個藐視國會請問藐視跟意圖它是不是有點類似的一種抽象的概念院長你覺得勒?藐視跟意圖要從主觀去判定別人這個應該有相當上的一個認定好,那我就問你啦現在這三種手勢哪一個算是藐視?"},{"start":7297.895,"end":7322.075,"text":"中間那個是可愛啊您等於說中間是可愛但是我也覺得派大星蠻可愛的但是我就要說的說遇到法律用詞用這樣藐視一種主觀判斷的方式人民很無所適從所以呢就是今天我們認為這部法律作為立法委員我覺得很遺憾的違反了法律民切訊的原則您同意嗎?是的"},{"start":7322.455,"end":7323.716,"text":"所以我才會提出這樣的問題"},{"start":7339.619,"end":7362.734,"text":"但是我兩場主持的時候前一場公聽會國民黨的蔡昭偉他是上午公聽會下午就要主條討論這是跟我們立法院職權行使法是有所相違啊而我主持的那兩場公聽會是隔週之後那時候民進黨送的黨團版還在院會交付到委員會的復議期間"},{"start":7364.52,"end":7379.25,"text":"我用附件的方式放在那個公聽會交由公聽會來討論您需要清楚的說明我主持兩場公聽會主要的是討論民進黨黨團的版本但是他後來在委員會被封殺的這你也了解嗎"},{"start":7380.151,"end":7399.611,"text":"我知道這個過程,但是討論的內容我當然不是很清楚。好,那我就要說你討論的內容。討論內容有在一檔主張,討論了一千五百分鐘。我們告訴我們行政院,我主持的時候是五次被強行表決散會,因為我要進入主條的時候,國民黨要人數優勢,將我們要討論的就散會掉了。"},{"start":7402.754,"end":7418.976,"text":"所以待會羅志祥委員說他說充分討論其實羅委員也在司法委員會根本沒有討論至少就民進黨的版本是無從討論那你知道國民黨的版本怎麼討論嗎我應該認為或許他討論得更少好來我們看一下"},{"start":7420.356,"end":7442.353,"text":"我們是完全沒有機會討論,他們的討論是這樣子,總共有兩個提案委員,副崑崎委員跟黃國燦委員,他們在討論到第二條的時候,他講的最多,他講開議日的決定。問他我們職員行使法民眾黨團版本的人事公聽、人事權、同意權的公聽會,他說沒有,他們要補充。問到了聽證調閱權的時候,他說"},{"start":7445.031,"end":7465.945,"text":"立法委員講得很清楚了,然後最後沒有進入到後來修好完成的政務院長的選舉辦法,他說這一條很基本。問到我們政務院長的選舉辦法,他也講很多,簡單講對於今天所談的標的立法院職權行使法跟刑法,幾乎黃總召是完全沒有發言。所以你認為這樣的討論充分嗎?"},{"start":7469.079,"end":7489.528,"text":"委員在現場有臨場的感覺,我想過去的立法院的討論應該比這個呈現出來的樣子應該是更有它實質的內容才對啊。但是黃總召在委員會的時候不討論,他在我們三二讀的時候,我們去登記主條發言的時候,他不但沒有登記發言,他開直播,請大家看他俊俏的臉龐。"},{"start":7491.428,"end":7508.684,"text":"他現在要求要電視辯論我真的不曉得為什麼立法院自己在審法案的時候不發言然後呢表決的時候之前的主條他也不登記就開直播到底是要討論還是不討論我不清楚我們來看一下過去接下來如果委員提到現在民進黨的提案是他"},{"start":7509.901,"end":7523.808,"text":"國民黨他把民黨主張的國會改革他拿出來你們三十年要改革的聽證調查國眾黨幫你做到了好我為了待會兒羅委員會問所以我就先幫你做一個提示來往下看齁"},{"start":7526.127,"end":7544.858,"text":"這個就是2016年民黨黨團的版本這是羅志強委員的版本抄的一模一樣我們有2024年的最新版本他不抄,他抄八年前的版本但是你要看到他這邊有什麼?有律師喔有律師或是我們陪同出席喔他的版本是支持這個的您知道他的版本後來怎麼處理嗎?往下看不予爭定啊"},{"start":7548.622,"end":7567.718,"text":"國民黨整個把他放生啊羅志強抄2016年民進黨黨團版本到了院會二讀的時候國民黨決定全部不以爭定跳過那請問到了三讀的時候國眾版的版本變成什麼?五十九條之四這邊啊律師的陪同要經過主席同意啊"},{"start":7568.584,"end":7597.184,"text":"所以院長因為您在行政院我們是當事人我們進行中我要說明的待會委員如果提到這個部分的時候請你要很清楚知道實際的情況是什麼不要讓說謊的人變成在罵人造謠來我們進去看超多超不完整羅志陽版本也是一樣他這邊寫啊保命的U寫得清清楚楚啊一樣國民黨把他放生不以爭定然後呢後面呢裡面寫什麼幕僚人員離職的保護規定通通拿掉"},{"start":7598.24,"end":7604.44,"text":"民進黨重算是八年前的版本都比現在國中版的來得周延來得完整您覺得如何?"},{"start":7606.721,"end":7611.285,"text":"這條文出現兩個很重要的關鍵叫宣誓請問部長你知道我們中華民國的法律有出現宣誓在哪裡嗎?是不是宣誓條例?"},{"start":7632.796,"end":7662.285,"text":"宣誓條例有出言宣誓這兩個字請問院長宣誓條例是做什麼用途的?官員總統對就職的受宣誓效忠的但是呢我們目前啊所看到的立法院職權行使法當中他的五四條之一的第三項他說呢詢問前在調查中令旗宣誓請問部長這個令旗宣誓中華民國的法律沒有這個欸是按著聖經嗎?是美國的好萊塢店按著聖經宣誓嗎?請問部長這個宣誓什麼意思?"},{"start":7663.823,"end":7683.473,"text":"是不是拒絕的意思應該是拒絕應該是拒絕嘛表示我講的都是真的嘛但是連他們自己的版本當中呢有的調查的時候有告訴他你要拒絕但他用宣誓寫錯了後面聽證的時候他又沒有告訴他沒有令其拒絕的誓言如果有虛會不實要罰嗎部長要罰嗎"},{"start":7685.851,"end":7687.672,"text":"接下來我們請登記第七號羅志強委員發言"},{"start":7727.025,"end":7727.526,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":7746.087,"end":7772.094,"text":"副委員好院長我剛剛非常認真在底下把前面所有的委員的這個這個詢答跟你的詢答都聽了一遍我先要感謝首先我要謝謝張祺凱委員你澄清了今天行政院復議的第一個假消息就是說這個總統到立法院聽取就做國情報告並進行問答是違憲的"},{"start":7774.241,"end":7797.393,"text":"他引用了賴清德的說法,賴清德的說法是什麼?按照憲法,總統不只要到立法院做國情報告而且要接受質詢,他的詞彙叫質詢哦坦白講我也不認為是質詢啊,就是問答所以謝謝張祺凱直接用賴清德的話打領了行政院我要謝謝侯孟凱"},{"start":7799.073,"end":7820.961,"text":"在行政院的覆議裡面跟我講說沒有討論討論有沒有確實有點主觀感受當然有一個我們在野黨三場公聽會一場專報兩次委員會審查五場朝野協商加上四天的表決審查你可以說沒有討論因為你有主觀感受"},{"start":7821.857,"end":7842.397,"text":"但是比較起邱毅英前瞻預算三分鐘輾壓沒有討論沒有表決甚至沒收在場的異議卓院長當桌沒看到什麼叫有沒有討論你說了算我要謝謝黃國昌官員說謊抱歉豈是懷疑所能定罪"},{"start":7843.462,"end":7861.33,"text":"公然發假消息嘛!官員說謊要成罪要經過檢察官要經過法官做事實認定沒有懷疑就能成罪啦!法學素養都不夠提出一個什麼爛的一個復議案我要謝謝傅昆奇今天已經告訴大家了"},{"start":7862.435,"end":7890.105,"text":"按照人事同意審查舊法的規定就沒有設期限照你的說法叫違憲新法只不過是加了所謂的一個月的審查期他並沒有訂定所謂的無期限你可以造謠說新法叫做無期限那舊法也被你講是違憲啊經過這些的一個詢答的交鋒我跟大家講 院長"},{"start":7891.65,"end":7910.71,"text":"你前面講過的我就不再重複了我先做點歸納但是我接下來要問院長您當過行政院長當過立法院長對不對沒有這次的覆議案你說關於執行權聽證權的行使有侵害人權之餘嗎這是你們的一個覆議的理由嗎對不對沒錯吧謝謝你點頭"},{"start":7914.505,"end":7935.335,"text":"所以我有些案例來比較一下民進黨在行政部門怎麼來去對人權的態度是什麼這個案子跟我接下來問的立法院聽證調查有關希望你不要又跟我講一句說這不在覆議案的範圍之內來迴避問答希望啦我想請教您根據警政署的統計"},{"start":7937.028,"end":7956.195,"text":"明強政府任內從2016年到2020年1月30號根據涉違法第63條第一項第五款也就是散佈謠言足以影響公共安寧者警察機關共移送多少案件你一定不會知道啦我不會為難你告訴你680件680件放心啦我說過後面有關啦"},{"start":7963.436,"end":7979.766,"text":"請問院長680件有多少件被法院裁罰多少件不裁罰你一定不知道我直接告訴你只有2乘3150件裁罰7乘7530件不裁罰國內改革法案生效了沒有請問院長"},{"start":7981.363,"end":7993.858,"text":"這一波的修法生效了沒有?所以我們在提出復議啊對 還沒嘛 對不對所以引起目前沒有任何民眾按照所謂聽證調查來這邊請求協助調查或出席聽證嘛 沒有嘛"},{"start":7996.581,"end":7997.061,"text":"民政黨政府就是恐懼的總和"},{"start":8022.541,"end":8032.368,"text":"680個案子有500個案子法院不裁罰你明記哪一句話說了算把人民用色違法來移送你就是一個恐懼的政府接下來我要跟你講我想請問齁這個國會改革還沒生效"},{"start":8037.796,"end":8063.582,"text":"所以也沒有人被要求協助調查跟隨的來出席聽證目前還沒有案例但是在你偉大的名將執政之下又五百萬民眾遭到行政院跟政府來去濫權的徵訊、偵辦、問話被司法權裁定為不法請問這算不算你偉大的院長你口中的侵犯人權呢?"},{"start":8064.684,"end":8064.944,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8081.004,"end":8106.308,"text":"今天說謊官員按照這次的刑法修訂是誰來審判說謊官員的罪責你一直說說謊官員那到底誰是說謊官員我問一下誰來判嘛不是你判不是我判嗎法院判嗎一個委員提案又是你說的司法救濟謝謝卓榮潘你打理了卓榮潘你跟我講司法救濟我告訴你現在就是司法審判第二個聽證調查來沒關係下一題了不用緊張"},{"start":8110.87,"end":8139.051,"text":"聽證調查你講司法救濟嘛聽證調查在多重門檻之下到最後如果人民不服一樣是行政法院救濟所以一樣有司法救濟謝謝左翁派你打臉自己但是我要跟你講下一個齁即便是謠言也要受到言論自由的保護所以社委法第六十三條第一項第五款散佈謠言的處罰要把它刪掉啊院長你認不認同這樣的修法理由"},{"start":8140.626,"end":8140.966,"text":"所以你不認同嗎?"},{"start":8151.297,"end":8170.671,"text":"三個字結束嘛!你認同三部謠言嗎?拜託!我豈敢認同三部謠言!但是不好意思啊!大家停!2013年民進黨蕭美琴現在的副總統、潘旺安現在的秘書長、林佳榮現在的部長、管碧玲現在的主委、李基麗的監察院秘書長、陳其邁的市長、黃偉哲市長提案刪除"},{"start":8174.554,"end":8193.692,"text":"所謂的社委法六十三條一項五款它的立法理由就是即使是謠言亦應收到言論自由之保護你直接一刀砍死所有同黨同志院長這樣不好吧都是他們過去犯蠢嗎這些你的過去做在台上隔緣犯蠢嗎"},{"start":8195.393,"end":8209.789,"text":"沒有通過啊很好啊來我要告訴你下一個我要問你沒有我告訴你我告訴你有沒有通過有沒有通過至少剛剛從你的嘴巴說出來這些人犯蠢還提案呢我要跟你講我下一個要問你別緊張我下一個問你好"},{"start":8212.281,"end":8241.727,"text":"民進黨這樣提案的原因很簡單啦他就是不滿政府查人民水表啦才會這樣提案嘛所以他覺得說政府用涉違法前置人民的言論自由不甘才提案修法廢除涉違法六三一項五款嘛那我想請問你齁照這種邏輯齁按涉違法六三一項五款齁來去所謂的來去偵辦人民移送的案件齁你覺得是馬政府多還是蔡政府多請部長說明一下來部長"},{"start":8243.704,"end":8271.085,"text":"這部分我沒有統計的一個資料我跟警政署所知啦警政署說他沒有一百零四年以前的資料啦所以但是瘋傳沒有介入過新聞因為我在總務府當過副秘書長我也略有所知按照警政署司法院監察院查核資料看到的資料2011年到2015年因為前面我也沒有五年資料違反社會法六十三條的移送件數你知道是移送多少件嗎"},{"start":8272.076,"end":8299.053,"text":"我直接告訴你三十二件平均六點四件你要去扯別的東西不在你覆議範圍內來沒關係齁按照蔡政府齁蔡政府二零一四年二零一六到二零二三年這八年六百七十三件平均八十四點一件來我要告訴你沒關係啊我要就是回歸你覆議案啊"},{"start":8300.069,"end":8318.433,"text":"今天只要我們蘇貞昌院長對信公豬肉不爽就去信公豬肉就被查水表我們的陳建仁院長說這新北的謝先生買到黑心的綠色雞蛋他覺得是造謠馬上警察八小時傳人半夜徵訊"},{"start":8320.435,"end":8325.9,"text":"這樣的一個所謂爛拳在你眼中不是爛拳來我跟你講國會改革聽證調查的四大門檻第一道門檻來來來第一道門檻"},{"start":8336.001,"end":8355.551,"text":"第一道門檻有所謂拒絕證言權因為時間不夠第二道門檻依依三位立委決議才能發動聽證調查第三道門檻依依三位立委決議才能夠處罰第四道門檻有司法究竟立法院這麼嚴謹門檻叫做侵犯人權你民進黨查稅表政府叫做什麼無法無天政府啊"},{"start":8359.218,"end":8361.823,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的備詢。報議會現在我們休息十分鐘。"},{"start":9003.476,"end":9008.132,"text":"報告全院委員會 我們現在繼續開會 接下來我們請李博義委員發言"},{"start":9033.752,"end":9036.795,"text":"在上任一個月內對立法院提出的這個立法院職權行使法馬上"},{"start":9059.578,"end":9086.992,"text":"來提出覆議案對一個新任的行政院長來講這是一個非常大的挑戰但是我支持你提出支持你的覆議案謝謝委員因為這是一部假改革之名事實上他是在擴權的立法院職權行使法說改革哪一個民眾不要但是是擴權他擴權到什麼程度他擴權到"},{"start":9088.444,"end":9090.265,"text":"藍、白正在做一件事情他透過這一次立法院職權行使法的修法"},{"start":9117.188,"end":9144.682,"text":"其實接下來他還在做現在院會還在發生委員會還在開才化法立法院還在做什麼事情他要提案他要提案來做花東三法來侵犯行政權對於預算的支配立法院在做這樣的法案所以如果覆議案不過"},{"start":9146.127,"end":9165.257,"text":"行政院當然我們知道我們還可以提起釋憲當然其實立法院對於這個新任的行政院長黨敢提出復議立法院也可能提出不信任案如果立法院提出但是院長這不會發生吶"},{"start":9166.872,"end":9171.595,"text":"藍加白好不容易多數了他們就是要藉由這樣剛剛黃國昌自己講出來了我也聽得笑出來他說其實不可以把官員"},{"start":9196.991,"end":9200.352,"text":"立法院的藍加白多數才是檢察官"},{"start":9226.107,"end":9227.507,"text":"我認為這不是挑戰"},{"start":9257.31,"end":9279.72,"text":"針對這個立法院的職權行使法我們列舉很多我要講的一句話與其說我是為了政府人員在備詢時候受到一些不應該有的態度的待遇之外與其說這個我更重視的是每一個國人部隊法人團體社會上利害關係的人有一天站在這裡"},{"start":9280.834,"end":9297.344,"text":"面對這樣的質詢面對這樣的詢問他要心理上要產生多大的心理壓力所以我是為每一個國人提出這個覆議院長我支持你好像知道我要問什麼來請內政部劉士凡部長麻煩請內政部說明時間稍微暫停一下時間都沒有暫停來部長"},{"start":9310.545,"end":9334.345,"text":"內政委員會在你還沒有就任的時候我們就成立了數位身份證調查小組那數位身份證調查小組內政部也提供了相關的這些資料到立法院的辦公室供我們來調閱那我們每一個調查的委員也都進去看了依照過去立法院職權行使法的第五十條之一"},{"start":9335.293,"end":9350.864,"text":"其實委員在看完之後有保密的義務但是在委員會正式調查報告出來之前有保密的義務很奇怪為什麼前天國民黨召開記者會說這個委員會的內容"},{"start":9353.506,"end":9371.504,"text":"資料內容部分被塗黑,部長你可以說明一下什麼事情嗎?是,謝謝委員的關切,數位身份證調閱小組確實是有召開兩次會議,第一次是5月2號,第二次是5月29,在第一次召開會議的時候呢,召委高金素梅所主持全員出席,會中主席有才事,"},{"start":9372.085,"end":9399.732,"text":"有關招標文件跟合約書涉及商業機密部分可以塗黑遮蔽所以事實上當時的包括我們的內政部或者是公共工程委員會或是中印公司呢他們都有按照委員的要求提供這些卷宗那在第二次委員會在繼續要往前提供補充提供的時候呢我們有發現到說按照我們的資訊公開法或者是個資法呢或者是立法委員的職權行使法有一部分呢確實是設計了在"},{"start":9401.613,"end":9405.835,"text":"市長,我在這邊跟你剖析他為什麼啦他其實目的就是要讓人民覺得說哇,這個吊躍委員會原來還可以塗黑其實這就是機密"},{"start":9428.93,"end":9431.772,"text":"麻煩請國防部長說明在這個上台的過程部長如果這涉及到因為這個數位身份證它是由"},{"start":9457.625,"end":9460.167,"text":"同樣的問題我要問國防部長我們現在國家的政策進行"},{"start":9484.195,"end":9497.97,"text":"包含潛艦國造、國艦國造甚至包含海巡很多船艦都國造潛艦國造也有人賴總統主張一次造七艘艦也有人主張不要一次造七艘艦"},{"start":9499.467,"end":9525.217,"text":"萬一在國防外交委員會我們認為照七艘國艦跟照一艘國艦內容包含預算的編列包含這些秘密會議裡面必須要由這個國防外交委員會的主席來認定你有沒有提供秘密資料或者是你有沒有如立法院的職權來提供資料的話主席是可以判定你藐視國會"},{"start":9527.626,"end":9547.57,"text":"跟委員報告,根據大法官釋字461號,他有一個很明確的解釋文,他就說,詢問的內容涉及重要國防機密者,則免於答覆。這是大法官的意見。那現在因為《立法院職權行使法》的第五條第二項,他拒絕答覆,他要並經這個主席的"},{"start":9551.892,"end":9554.954,"text":"還有更嚴重的還在後面第59條很多配合國家政策在乘坐我們的不管是軍艦也好巡邏艦也好的廠商"},{"start":9579.346,"end":9608.961,"text":"他可能有評選的過程如果有落選的廠商去找委員說這個有問題把他當作弊案來查未來這些曾做的廠商甚至公共工程沒有得標或得標的廠商都有可能站在立法院接受立委的這個調查之外還有可能有罰款這就是為什麼我要支持行政院復議案的原因還有一個更重要的原因台積電現在因為受到AI的鼓舞"},{"start":9609.417,"end":9626.549,"text":"高雄也設廠在德國、在日本政府都拿出大筆的經費來補助台積電的設廠台灣能做什麼?台灣可以做的是周邊的公共建設包含我的選區左營男子捷運直線鐵路高架化男子交流道"},{"start":9627.86,"end":9653.162,"text":"這些都已經進行可行性評估以及正在進行相關的計畫當中都有可能受到現在的財化法以及未來的花東山法嚴重侵害行政院要對於國家布局的能力所以在這裡侵犯到排擠到選區預算的這些法令我主張支持行政院提出覆議案"},{"start":9656.921,"end":9683.19,"text":"謝謝李博毅委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明。我們接下來請登記第9號,王洪威委員發言。好,謝謝主席,請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長說明。"},{"start":9690.285,"end":9713.276,"text":"黃委員好好 院長好在我們整個的國會改革法案提出之後啊真的充滿了太多的錯假消息我記得那時候總諮詢我就告訴你欸 剛才諮詢就有錯假消息然後我現在又要告訴你剛才李博弈委員又有錯假消息因為剛才他特別提到的就說欸 我們有很多國防外交上面的機密"},{"start":9714.096,"end":9732.482,"text":"如果都可以這樣子調查權,然後我們的公務人員,比如說我們國防部人員,他們都要這樣子一五一十地回答,這不是都適合命嗎?那我在這邊,剛才其實我非常遺憾的,我們的國防部長顧立雄,部長其實他也是大律師,"},{"start":9733.562,"end":9751.235,"text":"我不曉得他有沒有仔細看過這個相關的修法我在這邊就是有必要要破除錯假消息第52條非常清楚的這個條文如果院長現在手上可以趕快翻"},{"start":9752.745,"end":9767.581,"text":"第五十二條調查、調閱報告書及意見處理未提出之前這些八八八都有保密的責任而且特別講到只有涉及外交、國防及其他依法應蓋秘密事項者"},{"start":9768.582,"end":9791.168,"text":"於調查調閱報告及處理意見提出之後,原依依相關規定去保密。這是第五條,第五十二條清清楚楚的規定,也就是我們即便經過調查之後,但是涉及到國防外交及相關的一些法律,應該要保密還是要保密。好,再來看第五十九條之二"},{"start":9792.848,"end":9812.278,"text":"第五十九條之五也是一樣說出席的這個委員當然應該要這個要好好的來報告據實報告但是只要牽涉到國防外交相關的法令他也是有權利來保守秘密的"},{"start":9812.711,"end":9834.172,"text":"好所以我要講說在整個的法條的設計裡面我們希望在國會能夠有更強的監督權但是相關的國防外交以及其他法令規定的秘密在這裡面也有相當的保全的措施所以呢這些錯假消息真的不要再以訛傳訛"},{"start":9835.811,"end":9836.452,"text":"一句話就可以回答委員"},{"start":9859.226,"end":9886.654,"text":"但是說如果接受詢問的時候會對相關的議案這個問題不大但是與立法委員職權相關的事項都可以問就無限包山包海啦我剛才跟你講了嘛我剛才我不用再講了看52條第59條之五請回去做功課院長請教一下喔星期五我們就要對覆議案做出表決"},{"start":9887.984,"end":9892.029,"text":"你有信心覆議案能夠通過嗎?我很珍惜委員這一票"},{"start":9893.186,"end":9893.746,"text":"憲法的規定讓我沒有選擇"},{"start":9923.427,"end":9941.199,"text":"你會請辭嗎?直接講嗎?憲法的規定我只有接受我沒有辭職的問題所以你不會請辭但是呢 院長你從事政治工作這麼久其實也都知道其實做一個覆議案它是一個非常大的一個政治動作"},{"start":9941.459,"end":9958.075,"text":"他是憲法裡面的秩序跟設計沒有錯我講過就是不管是覆議也好或釋憲也好他都是我們在憲政體制裡面可以採取的相關的這個程序但是呢他在政治上是非常大的一個政治動作"},{"start":9959.056,"end":9986.119,"text":"那基本上我們為什麼在講說要有所謂的政治責任呢所以我覺得院長輕易的去開啟當然我相信你也是身不由己啦那麼輕易的開啟去做這個復議的動作事實上在政治責任上其實應該要負起責任的好因為我的時間比較有限我想給大家看一個影片給院長看一個影片"},{"start":10001.315,"end":10024.867,"text":"這個就是剛才李博義委員也特別詢問到的因為按照他的所講法說這邊部分被遮蔽可是我想在這個備詢台上兩位都當過立法委員那在立法院裡面我們在調閱文件的時候那看到像這樣像這樣可以繼續播放這個影片"},{"start":10028.58,"end":10034.12,"text":"這個影片幾乎百分之九十五以上吧全部都被槓掉"},{"start":10035.956,"end":10059.853,"text":"所以對於一個立法委員要行使他的職權想要來了解一個數位身份證花了公帑十四億但是呢卻在不同的行政院長的任內這個是賴清德當時擔任行政院長推動可是到了蘇貞昌當院長的時候呢就把他凍結暫停"},{"start":10061.374,"end":10089.636,"text":"那花了十四億不打緊因為未來還要每年花六千多萬去做維護那麼所以在立法院裡面那些委員會是依法來成立了這個調查委員會那麼看到的又是這樣的資料所以如果今天我們在國會改革上面我們沒有辦法強化一些我們國會監督的功能"},{"start":10090.489,"end":10101.086,"text":"我們很有可能每一次成立調查委員會最後就是這樣啊就跟過去之前在上一屆有關疫苗採購的時候看到的也是這樣"},{"start":10102.802,"end":10122.561,"text":"所以這讓很多的民眾看到之後他會以為說你們今天是擴權你們本來就有原來的一些你們的工具你們本來就有一些你們的這個職權可以行使但是我們要告訴當我們依現在的制度去行使的時候我們調到資料就是這樣子"},{"start":10123.582,"end":10125.603,"text":"報告委員你這個部分的資料是怎麼出來的我不知道"},{"start":10143.291,"end":10161.284,"text":"但是呢這裡面是一個技術服務的建議書他是一個附件內政部所提供的87個卷中的所有的這個我們的文件或我們的公文已經全數提供公共工程委員會也都全數提供所以這個是以偏概全的資料反而都蒙蔽了委員在做這個調閱的時候的真相"},{"start":10165.547,"end":10165.587,"text":"主席"},{"start":10185.54,"end":10204.05,"text":"民調,因為最近有很多的民調會針對,比如說包含支不支持這個行政院提復議啊,或者大家對於這些國會改革大家支不支持。其實老實講我對一些所謂的側議的民調我是覺得不值一顧。"},{"start":10204.75,"end":10230.915,"text":"但是呢我願意把那個游英龍老師那我想因為他他這個臺灣民意基金會不管他做出來的民調是有利於我們或者不利於我們其實基本上我都會引以一定的尊重所以在臺灣民意基金會呢做出來的最新民調有51%支持行政院提出覆議案我願意斟贈但是他這裡面有很多的子項目他的子項目可以看到"},{"start":10232.075,"end":10235.916,"text":"雖然有51%支持提出覆議案,但是以立法院職權行使法及刑法增訂裡面,這些包含聽證會、藐視國會罪和同意權的行使,贊成的都超過五成。"},{"start":10253.443,"end":10277.38,"text":"贊成的超過五成他贊成你們提復議但是他也贊成立法院的相關的法令的增訂而且所有每一項贊成的比例都高於不贊成的比例所以我要講到就是說當院長行政院提出復議的時候有真的去"},{"start":10280.261,"end":10295.328,"text":"請聽還有去接近民意嗎?如果在這一個多月來府院黨窮盡一切的力量去污名化國會改革的法案去阻擋國會改革的法案用盡一切力量但是以由於這個老師所做出來的民調仍然是這樣我覺得行政院還是要去參考好不好?我們沒有污名化國會改革我也支持國會改革但重要的是它對於憲政的支持"},{"start":10314.559,"end":10315.04,"text":"臨沂警委員"},{"start":10342.275,"end":10343.356,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長說明。"},{"start":10355.56,"end":10380.666,"text":"一萬七千九百四十一這是什麼樣的數字這是國家人權博物館去年根據現有的政治檔案研究從1945年到1992年所統計的政治受難者的數量實際上一萬七千九百四十一人就總人口數是少數中的少數但是我們絕對不可能因此說"},{"start":10382.026,"end":10398.547,"text":"威權統治對人權的侵害99.9%的台灣人都沒有被影響到因為真正可怕的是你只要不合統治者的意統治者隨時可以透過政治手段對你侵害"},{"start":10399.928,"end":10415.262,"text":"這種不確定性讓全台灣的社會為此而噤聲也常常的自我思想審查我們回到這次的覆議案我們知道藍白擴權法案要求社會上有關係的人員"},{"start":10416.443,"end":10434.918,"text":"有義務要提供文件資料、証言、表達意見跟接受詢問。行政院在覆議函中有強調,究竟何謂社會上有關係的人員,文字定義相當模糊,有恣意調查人民違反比例原則的疑慮。"},{"start":10436.039,"end":10455.795,"text":"立法院是有政治立場的所在有政治立場不是問題可是這是因為是民意機構有政治立場才能表達多元民意的需求但是有政治立場的地方極度不適合扮演客觀中立的法院"},{"start":10456.636,"end":10484.647,"text":"所以除非將調查聽證限縮在立法院職權範圍內否則即便受法的民眾跟官員少之又少但是這種政治掛帥的這個調查權的行使就會使民主大開倒車那就如同我一開始所提到的臺灣的政治受難者絕對不是一萬七千九百四十一人這個數字就可以草草被忽略的一百個人權是人權"},{"start":10485.467,"end":10502.312,"text":"一個人的人權也是人權就如獨同院長您曾說過的必須接觸每一個人對於藍白擴權法案中這種可能資益的影響人民的權利的條文我覺得想請教院長你有何評價跟呼籲"},{"start":10504.873,"end":10523.918,"text":"當然陳錄委員所說的再少數的人受到公不義的對待國家都應該去保護他而不是變本加厲的用各種方式讓他心生恐懼心生壓力雖然民主進步黨是現在中華民國台灣的執政黨站在立法院內是以韓國瑜院長"},{"start":10524.918,"end":10525.138,"text":"是,好"},{"start":10540.772,"end":10561.634,"text":"那我想沒有人反對國會改革陳如院長剛回答很多委員你也都這樣講那我們跟議場外很多參與青鳥行動的公民朋友一樣反對的是程序不正義跟立法倉促、粗糙而且事實上漏洞百出的"},{"start":10563.015,"end":10586.783,"text":"擴權二法。那我想今天在這個巡討我有個請求就是想要呼籲立法院所有的同仁們我們團結一致讓我們重回委員會來逐條討論這個爭議的法條那除了修正這個文字的基本錯誤外我想對於反質詢跟藐視國會這樣的概念的構成要件不明確"},{"start":10588.644,"end":10606.713,"text":"以及這個決而未易的程序不能得到解決我想除了這些一議都解決了國會改革才會是真的名副其實那根據行政院的覆議函政院這一次為什麼要提出覆議案有一個非常強烈的理由就是因為這一次藍白兩黨強推的這個拓權法案"},{"start":10615.301,"end":10625.933,"text":"可不可以請院長說明一下為什麼立法院三讀後送出來的法案會連法律的基本要件都沒有那法律的基本要件又是什麼請院長簡單說明"},{"start":10627.557,"end":10644.962,"text":"我們說過在程序上他沒有經過實質的落實實質的討論所以出來的法案會變成我們在依法行政當中我們認為他是有瑕疵的這是一個第二個他對於憲法的認知大家雖然對憲法的學者很多但憲法規定已經在這裡了"},{"start":10647.023,"end":10670.697,"text":"總統在立法院集會的時候的到立法院來做國政報告這個的寫得很清楚但現在的規定把它變成一定要來而且是定期而且集會集黨這個顯然跟憲法的規定很不一樣所以法律有很多所謂的構成要件那在構成要件當中我們審視這裡所有的條文在相當多我剛剛在一開始報告的時候所唸的那麼多條文"},{"start":10672.654,"end":10695.043,"text":"實在是經過了很神聖的包括我們院內的法學專家以及社會上的公法學專家都提供了很多的意見這些意見再加上民眾更多的聲音讓我們覺得不是為了維護憲法而已不是為了官員的尊嚴而已為了每一個國人他都可能在這個法律構成要件不明確的情況底下"},{"start":10696.54,"end":10723.049,"text":"內容不明確比例原則不符合而且不具有法律正當性站在這裡都可能被侵害我們被每一個人都必須要真真正正的從內心來保護他謝謝院長我想我們之所以會認為這一次擴權惡法欠缺法律的基本要件以外最核心的理由當然就是整個審議程序就誠如院長您所說的都不符合民主的原則那而且有重大的瑕疵"},{"start":10723.689,"end":10752.569,"text":"那我們在想什麼叫做反質詢那國民黨立委吳宗憲他對媒體提問他說立法完成之後就會做完整的交代那請問吳宗憲交代了嗎那吳宗憲當然沒有交代那可是後來改口他說他指的是立法完成後會產生判決跟判例那透過這些判決跟判例就可以回去解釋什麼叫做反質詢那用白話文講的就是"},{"start":10753.169,"end":10775.639,"text":"我先判了再說你先讓我罰罰看你就知道以後怎麼樣才會被罰那這種立法的態度跟法律的素養實在是令人嘆為觀止就如同我舉例來講我們叫委員會我們在審議黃牛票的態樣跟定義我們就花了很多的精神跟體力去好好的討論因為我有定義清楚你可以去定義說什麼樣叫做賣黃牛票"},{"start":10778.1,"end":10779.08,"text":"不透明的遊戲規則沒有任何人可以信服"},{"start":10798.75,"end":10818.277,"text":"那我們再來看看最新的民調怎麼看這次的覆議案根據中華亞太基因交流協會15日公佈的民調有高達61.4的民調支持覆議要求立法院要重新討論法案值得注意的是即便國民黨跟民眾黨的支持者也有大約四成人支持覆議"},{"start":10818.977,"end":10842.28,"text":"那就連臺灣民意基金會前天公布的調查也有過半的民眾支持行政院的覆議另外這兩份的民調中我們都可以看見有超過半數的民眾不清楚法案的內容就有學者分析這是因為修法的過程太過倉促以至於很多民眾對於修法後的影響也不是了解所以我們大家都希望透過這一次的覆議"},{"start":10843.001,"end":10868.976,"text":"可以更清楚知道修法的正義點在哪裡那院長想請教你怎麼看這些民調的顯示喔另外今天開始到週五的復議的投票日公民團體再度號召很多民眾在立法院外他們希望表達他們反對擴權惡法的訴求所以院長請問你有什麼要話要傳達給異產外的青年朋友們也要傳達給台灣各地的國人"},{"start":10872.162,"end":10896.618,"text":"對於正反雙方的群眾來表達聲音其實在這種天候底下我真的於心不忍如果我們在這裡可以合理公開的這樣討論讓它成為一個回到大院繼續可以重新審視機會的一個條文讓透過民主的程序共同來維護就可以不需要這樣子辛苦大家我過去到現在到今天我的心情是完全一樣的"},{"start":10897.481,"end":10912.312,"text":"是所以我想今天院長來到立法院也是目的要跟我們立委說明覆議案也請大家支持覆議案那院長剛剛有很多的報告說明這些行政院也說明了很多我想大家"},{"start":10913.552,"end":10934.892,"text":"聽的聽去聽不進去願不願意聽我想要靠個人的智慧跟良心那可是院長根據對於根本不了解法案或者只跟著盲目投票或者瞭解法案礙於黨意而沒辦法投票違背自身良知委員不曉得院長對他有什麼樣的呼籲例如說在上週"},{"start":10935.472,"end":10936.652,"text":"我相信每個委員都會勇敢的面對自己跟面對歷史"},{"start":10972.851,"end":10974.072,"text":"徐欣宜委員"},{"start":10996.118,"end":11001.122,"text":"謝謝韓院長﹚大會主席本席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明徐委員好卓院長﹚還有我們在場的委員﹚以及全國關心覆議案的民眾"},{"start":11018.683,"end":11042.552,"text":"今天我們立法院是在審議行政院所提的這個覆議案這是一個非常關鍵的時刻因為這攸關我們台灣能不能成為真正功能上意義上民主憲政國家的國會的關鍵時刻這也是一個決定性的時刻"},{"start":11043.615,"end":11066.021,"text":"能不能把過去民眾對於政府失能以及諸多的弊端到底能不能揪出弊端的決定時刻所以首先本席要請教卓院長您是否認同調查權是立法院的固有權利請您回答認同或不認同"},{"start":11067.415,"end":11070.276,"text":"本期想繼續請教院長您是否知道英國國會何時開始有調查權制度?知道嗎?"},{"start":11094.448,"end":11123.004,"text":"好本席告訴你是在西元1688年那請教院長德國國會何時開始有調查權制度好本席讓您了解答案是西元1816年那法國國會何時開始有調查權制度答案是西元1958年那美國國會美國國會何時開始有調查權制度院長了解嗎"},{"start":11124.824,"end":11128.689,"text":"他從開國以來一直都有調查權。我們鄰近的日本何時開始有調查權制度?在西元1946年開始。"},{"start":11141.024,"end":11169.841,"text":"所以從以上我們了解英德法美日這些先進的民主國家的國會他們都有超過幾十年甚至超過百年的調查制度當然社會上還有更多更多的民主國家也都具有調查權但是中華民國的立法院我們只有調閱權沒有調查權可以說是比起世界各國我們在這方面是大大的落後"},{"start":11170.521,"end":11179.026,"text":"所以本次的國會改革法案,就是要回歸憲政體制,健全政府運作,恢復立法院原有的職責。剛剛已經講了,大法官釋憲585號已經講過了。好,接著本席,本席要請教,請教您。"},{"start":11199.838,"end":11205.681,"text":"好分析請教民進黨我要請教院長院長我要抗議我的時間請暫停因為我沒有問那就一直答沒有問題麻煩請曾部長就不要搶答好不好謝謝謝謝院長剛剛沒有暫停這時間要給我好的那我們現在暫停10秒鐘好嗎好那等一下大概差10秒"},{"start":11229.707,"end":11229.827,"text":"請問院長您"},{"start":11235.913,"end":11235.953,"text":"主席"},{"start":11266.774,"end":11291.053,"text":"權力導致腐敗,絕對的權力導致絕對的腐敗所以希望民進黨的執政團隊不要換了位子就換了腦袋要記取你們的名字,民主進步所以我們希望一個連門而且清廉的一個政府"},{"start":11291.749,"end":11298.013,"text":"報告委員,我沒有反對國會改革,我也沒有不承認調查權,但是我們五院的體制,監察院有監察院的職權,"},{"start":11316.822,"end":11340.906,"text":"本席現在講的是立法院的調查權接下來本席要討論行政院的復議案在復議案的內容有提出一些錯誤的認知與見解本席希望提出來請院長還有全國民眾來審酌首先復議案有特別提到指責立法院的議事程序"},{"start":11343.047,"end":11360.101,"text":"說這個立法院的議事程序有致愛難行之處對於立法院的議事程序是否合乎憲政的精神與體制這個應該是國會自律的範圍那就算有發生重大爭議也應該是大法官經過憲法的這個判決來釐清爭議"},{"start":11364.224,"end":11383.887,"text":"那怎麼會變成行政院來指責呢?所以行政院指責立法院的立法程序這個是民主憲政國家行政機關罕見的傲慢表現所以完全執政八年的民進黨執政"},{"start":11385.731,"end":11409.406,"text":"造成的就是不斷的傲慢自我恐嚇我還沒問你第二個你們也提到舉手表決舉手表決是議事規則明定的合法表決方法竟然也可以成為復議的理由那所以院長所以未來行政院到立法院這個來"},{"start":11412.248,"end":11412.989,"text":"沒有辦法這樣回答"},{"start":11431.261,"end":11433.242,"text":"總統國情報告當然剛剛也很多答詢我們在這邊強調"},{"start":11459.907,"end":11486.876,"text":"先請教院長您這次組閣整個過程中有沒有跟總統討論跟報告?有或沒有?有!有嘛!所以我們全國人民都知道總統才是整個國政的決策者所有的重要人事提名、重大政務決策都是總統的意志啊!所以總統國情報告總不能總統演說完就走吧!所以在整個的國會改革內容裡面特別提到這個總統"},{"start":11491.454,"end":11507.562,"text":"等於是立法委員有不明瞭之處提出問題也非質詢嘛所以再加上賴清德總統在選前為什麼選後跟選前對民眾的承諾就不一致了呢這點行政院"},{"start":11508.442,"end":11532.81,"text":"以及賴總統一定要對全國人民有所表示而且要等於是為什麼選前選後兩樣情那這個我不在這裡我不在這裡來講再來因為時間的關係最後我們還有針對人事同意權的部分人事同意權的行使覆議案的內容也是非常的荒謬"},{"start":11534.295,"end":11559.872,"text":"人事同意權本席想請教這個院長如果有一個大公司他的高階主管他要聘用結果呢有人用虛偽的學歷經歷又不告知不告知有犯罪前科他詐騙取得了工作聘書院長同意這樣嗎就不要騙他阿他們就說對就是這樣那不然把他移送嗎"},{"start":11560.592,"end":11562.514,"text":"所以我們都不用防範一個國家一個國家這麼重要的人士包含監察委員包含考試委員包含大法官"},{"start":11575.578,"end":11596.688,"text":"要送到立法院審核的人事資料我們只是要求不要隱匿資料你要給正確的學經歷還有你有什麼犯罪前科你要提供結果連這個都不行所以我們真的非常遺憾行政院帶頭縱容難怪台灣的詐騙橫行這個讓我們覺得說這真的是虛偽不實的回答都是自己的人格自殺"},{"start":11605.012,"end":11606.292,"text":"我以為國人都不會容忍"},{"start":11635.183,"end":11653.654,"text":"市長會不會依憲法規定附屬?所以會依憲法規定附屬?所以本席最後提醒院長,復議否決卻不公布法案,不僅不能申請釋憲,更是嚴肅的違憲問題。"},{"start":11661.644,"end":11662.685,"text":"接下來我們請登記第12位參議與委員發言"},{"start":11684.466,"end":11689.91,"text":"謝謝院長那我們是不是有請我們卓院長以及我們法務部我們部長再請法務部說明"},{"start":11697.415,"end":11725.781,"text":"蔡委員好院長好院長我們今天在討論這個立法院然後這個國會擴權然後要把所謂調查權把它訂入這個法律我們這一部立法院的一個行為行使法裡面那有一個重點就是說國會的調查權它有規定的院長你應該很清楚嘛因為你本身對於律師的一個專業法律的一個專業我想你很清楚"},{"start":11726.101,"end":11726.382,"text":"585號有講到國會調查權"},{"start":11729.841,"end":11759.341,"text":"但是這個國會調查權他是為了因為在於說我們行使文件的一個調閱權在不足的地方然後必要時候得以傳喚相關政府人員或者是可以傳喚部分的民間人士然後來國會問然後縱使他問的時候如果有涉及到抗拒然後不去回答的然後他在罰款的一個範圍內他是可以去做行政的一個處罰"},{"start":11760.161,"end":11786.114,"text":"所以這是在585的解釋但是585這是上半段下半段有更多的有更多的一些文字的一個細載比方585後半段他講到有所謂行政特權館長行政特權有哪些啊我想總統啦或者行政長官他有一些行政上的特權這個是受到一些保障的"},{"start":11786.55,"end":11808.371,"text":"有受到保障嘛對不對所以說行政首長他可能對於干涉到行政的部門的有效運作有決定不予公開的權利那這個叫做行政特權那585號講得很清楚喔如果遇到行政特權那院長你剛剛立法院侵害到你的行政特權的時候585號有講要怎麼做"},{"start":11809.437,"end":11824.522,"text":"所以就是要維護五院體制行政歸行政、立法歸立法、監察歸監察、司法歸監察對,一定會說答案啦五院體制,就是說如果今天立法院調查權和你的院長、你的裁量、你的行政特權太崩"},{"start":11826.783,"end":11851.008,"text":"這個時候,第一,大法官解釋講得很清楚喔,立法院跟其他國家機關在你行政的一合理的途徑,協商解決。協商解決啦,就是一定要跟我們的韓院長協商。啊,如果協商出來,要罵倒,要罵倒形成答案,這個時候要怎麼辦?"},{"start":11852.606,"end":11876.544,"text":"吳鮑威號我們有講喔由司法機關審理解決有沒有?是吳鮑威號講的這個好,那我們這一次國民黨跟民眾黨所訂的這一套的立法院的這個調查權有講到這些嗎?有任何文字講到這些嗎?沒有嘛,他的調查權在47條嘛"},{"start":11878.646,"end":11905.544,"text":"調查權第四十七條說調查委員會或調查專案小組會行使調查權得要求政府機關部隊法人團體社會上有關係之人物之人員與五日內提供資料以及可以傳喚他們來這個是四十七條是調閱文件那還有另外的就是傳喚人沒有講到萬一權力產生衝突的時候"},{"start":11906.724,"end":11930.87,"text":"要怎麼來解決?這是不是一個問題?對,正義之解決是沒有去做這樣的一個處理,所以這個行使法對這樣是...是一個...如果這樣的這一部法律... 嚴重違反那個585號解釋的...解釋的意旨對,就違背了這個585的意旨嘛所以就很清楚,是讓大家法律人啊,我們說什麼的,這裡都是法律人一看而知,這個修法就違憲"},{"start":11932.504,"end":11953.624,"text":"這個修法就是沒打整個585號,他要上半段他只要擷取他要的部分,要的部分585號有講到說有部分的調查權,他就說這個好這個我要,權利我要,義務我不要,立法委員擴權,要擷取的權利,負擔義務都不要,他們只敢講585"},{"start":11955.359,"end":11958.543,"text":"而且585這部分是限那個調閱權他這個是把那個調查權進行他是把調閱權進行那調查權有沒有限制有沒有他的限制"},{"start":11967.294,"end":11971.157,"text":"這個調查權是有限制的,585號解釋,還有那個325,還有729號解釋對,729號,729號是講跟檢察官的一個文件的調閱嘛325號更精彩咩,325號齁,現在國民黨齁,跟黃國昌都不敢講啦"},{"start":11988.717,"end":11989.437,"text":"三百二十五號解釋"},{"start":12016.125,"end":12035.129,"text":"調查權應該是屬於監察院對不對縱使是監察院的調查權但是如果是國家機關獨立行使職權受憲法的保障第一個如司法機關審理案件所表示的法律見解第二個考試機關對於應考人員成績的評定"},{"start":12038.191,"end":12058.229,"text":"第三,監察委員的彈劾或糾正的判斷或訴訟案件在判決確定前的偵查作為,監察院對於行使調查權本受有限制,基於同一理由,立法院的調閱文件亦同受限制。有沒有這樣的文字?有"},{"start":12059.471,"end":12080.547,"text":"連監察院的調查權都不可以侵害到行政特權或者是司法的一個專業的判斷這就是那個到我可以解釋就是要注意到其實那個調查權要注意權力分立的原則彼此要有彼此尊重憲法的體律分際要有權力分立就是監察院的調查權一樣要有受到這些限制喔但是我們所訂出來的"},{"start":12082.601,"end":12099.526,"text":"我們所訂出來的這個法案他說我們四十七條的調閱文件必要時還可以要求司法機關或監察機關就在偵查中的案件他們可以因序名理由並提供副本"},{"start":12105.127,"end":12130.876,"text":"好 完整我這樣說應該這樣有違憲嗎?這大剌剌違憲的文字 這樣的法案有一個是慕尼黑的博士 有一個康乃爾的博士都捏出來了 都違憲到這樣這樣要叫我們被誰要買單叫我們一直說裡面有民進黨的條文我們民進黨裡面他們用通過的條文都是那種無關緊要程序性的問題"},{"start":12132.276,"end":12143.807,"text":"關鍵二十五條、關鍵四十七條、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關鍵五十條之一、關"},{"start":12152.341,"end":12173.436,"text":"這個內容的這個部分在整個一個一個調查權這形式他是把它列入到第八章這整個一個就是新增的一個條文就是完全違反了585號解釋的一個意旨一個意旨而且這違反到違反585跟325啦325那我們再來聊一下啦我剛才忽然間沒想到想不出來瞬間忘記"},{"start":12175.745,"end":12203.127,"text":"我們在講他們說你有保密義務嘛五十條也有規定保密義務所以涉及到國防跟外交這個屬於保密義務的部分如果你在行使調查權的時候政府機關我要說這個是屬於機密這個是屬於機密所以政府機關可以說這個我機密我拒絕回答拒絕回答勒要"},{"start":12203.871,"end":12207.175,"text":"那如果他拒絕回答我們可以馬上回到了對他的一個法則就是可以把他移送"},{"start":12223.092,"end":12223.893,"text":"公務員如果被判刑責會怎樣?"},{"start":12251.292,"end":12279.409,"text":"會不會被剝奪公務員資格?對,就被剝奪了會被剝奪公務員資格,他公務員就沒了我再講那如果立法委員在行使調查權的時候把這個機密講出來這部分在刑事法並沒有規範他那個救責的機制他沒有救責嗎?所以立法委員講出來的話這個保密的違反的話是沒有救責的機制我存三十秒,你給我說完如果立法委員一說出來好,縱使我們覺得很可惡你怎麼講出來,我們要把他起訴"},{"start":12280.663,"end":12292.943,"text":"他在法院的時候還會講什麼?不好意思!我有言論免責權!這是憲法給我的權利!你不可以碰我!這是我的言論免責權!你不可以碰我!他就這樣說!中時勒!"},{"start":12295.609,"end":12297.13,"text":"謝謝蔡宇為的發言也謝謝卓院長的說明"},{"start":12326.209,"end":12330.713,"text":"接下來我們請登記第13位林思明委員發言再請卓院長說明"},{"start":12348.902,"end":12377.989,"text":"林委員好。是,蘇院長好。我想院長根據臺灣民意基金會昨天的最新的民調對於國會改革的法案大部分的民眾表達了支持。院長你看見人民對於陽光國會的一個期待了嗎?我也期待一個真正的陽光國會。我想你也知道了。我想賴總統與您都口口聲聲說要少數服從多數。那麼現在民意就擺在這裡"},{"start":12379.676,"end":12382.538,"text":"任何一個國人權利受到傷害,絕對不是用表決的方式來決定。"},{"start":12394.656,"end":12417.445,"text":"我想國會改革的覆議案在您尚未收到立法院的條文前您就表態說行政院會提出覆議覆議以後你說以後還會釋憲我沒有這樣說我想這個就好你就說你要提出覆議我沒有這樣說所以這個就是代表您心裡您現在講說你沒有你說在收到法案之前我就這樣說我沒有這樣說"},{"start":12418.846,"end":12429.477,"text":"條文沒看過你就說要覆議我沒有這樣說在您尚未收到立法院的條文前您確實有這樣說就代表您心裡早有定見先設見再劃法"},{"start":12432.315,"end":12447.918,"text":"提出的覆議理由我們現在看到您的理由就是民進黨團立法院黨團的理由所以您仍然將自己視為民進黨的秘書長而不是我們國家的行政院長"},{"start":12449.139,"end":12467.885,"text":"凡事以黨議為優先條文內容您都還沒有看還不知道您就直接說自愛難行要提復議我沒有這樣說這樣的做法漠視民意黨議優先我會打臉你我想您這樣的做法更狠狠地打臉立法院"},{"start":12469.045,"end":12481.987,"text":"本席要跟院長說的是,立法院不再是行政院的法治局,院長請尊重立法院多數決的一個立法,這個才叫尊重民主。"},{"start":12483.223,"end":12512.763,"text":"院長,您身為民進黨秘書長的任務已經結束了本席希望您放下執念,別再留戀記者,自己現在是全國人民的行政院長反正民意站在民意為優先現在民意就是希望國會改革院長,我要在這邊特別呼籲您要與民眾站在一起"},{"start":12513.923,"end":12531.374,"text":"我們現在針對復議理由來就教院長憲法《徵修條文》第三條第二項第二款故規定說行政院得提出復議就自愛難行的法案但是我們現在看您的復議理由針對我們的議事程序"},{"start":12532.509,"end":12550.279,"text":"你認為說立法院的職權行使法的修正的審議程序不符民主原則,具有明顯重大的瑕疵,所以基於憲政機關依法行政的立場,執行上極有摯愛。本席要請問院長,你有參與立法院的立法程序嗎?"},{"start":12552.706,"end":12569.48,"text":"有所有的立法委員都參與過這個程序所以在這個法案在司法法制委員會總共開了一次的專報三次的公聽會一次的黨團協商以及我們的韓院長多次的協商會議"},{"start":12571.215,"end":12573.337,"text":"三百位法學專家也都有這樣的疑慮"},{"start":12588.689,"end":12601.737,"text":"請問議事程序是哪一條違反議事規則?您能夠具體說明嗎?報告委員,早上在您之前12個委員當中有好幾位都提出所有審查的程序,我們已經一一的說明了"},{"start":12605.356,"end":12618.563,"text":"就最後那幾天的在這裡的討論大院議場裡面的討論以及在表決的過程在場人數跟表決人數不同這個就是嚴重的瑕疵我已經事實講出來了我事實講出來了表決的過程在場人數跟表決人數不同這不是重大瑕疵嗎"},{"start":12632.054,"end":12643.425,"text":"有沒有內容的討論有沒有參與專報有沒有參與公聽會以及我們委員會的協商院會的協商的討論過程行政院完全沒有參與"},{"start":12644.622,"end":12662.548,"text":"那我怎麼會知道三場公聽會的事情呢?立法院的議事過程有重大瑕疵嗎?有你有調查嗎?有你有調查嗎?有了解有了解,你沒有調查嗎?你沒有權力調查嗎?我不能來調查委員,我跟委員不一樣你沒有權力調查,你也講說你不能調查"},{"start":12663.368,"end":12681.663,"text":"我告訴你依照大法官會議解釋第342號理由書依照民主憲政國家的通例國家的立法權屬於國會國會行使立法權的程序與不抵觸憲法的範圍內得以其自行訂定的議事規則為之"},{"start":12683.524,"end":12684.285,"text":"所以要不抵觸憲法"},{"start":12704.272,"end":12721.714,"text":"四至三四二號的解釋文我再念給你聽雖然法律案這立法程序有不帶調查事實即可認定為抵觸卸法,亦及有違反法律成立基本規定的明顯重大瑕疵者。就您提出的覆理由說認為說這個有明顯重大瑕疵"},{"start":12722.535,"end":12748.643,"text":"但是理由裡面有講事先機關要宣告無效必須是他的瑕疵要達到足以影響法律成立的重大程序如上有爭議上有待調查者極非明顯剛才您告訴我你沒有權利調查所以你如何認定說這個是一個明顯重大的瑕疵有這個抵觸憲法"},{"start":12749.795,"end":12769.133,"text":"我沒有調查是因為憲法讓我沒有調查立法院的選擇啊所以我依照憲法這個我沒有錯事實的調查事現機關都要受到限制而應回歸國會國會自律的這個這樣的原則來解決但是我們很遺憾的看到今天行政院的復營"},{"start":12770.482,"end":12799.198,"text":"對於國會行使立法權如何進行它的議事程序屬於我們國會自立的範疇四線機關都要基於權力分立的原則而認為它對此等事項的審查要受到限制所以司法院的大法官都認為不能介入國會自立事項但是行政院卻超越大法官予以指責立法院的議事程序行政院顯然不適格啊"},{"start":12800.097,"end":12818.354,"text":"大法官顯然不會接受抵觸憲法的任何法律案所以大法官都會自我限制說自己對相關國會之類事項的審查所以立法院也要有自己的節制啊所以立法院要節制啊沒有 動請大法官解釋整個對議事程序的規定"},{"start":12821.036,"end":12846.615,"text":"復不復二一規則屬於我們的自律事項行政院可以來指指點點所以行政院您根本就是已經違反三權分立的原則了您比司法院還大所以院長我要告訴你這個復議案真的非常的不適格接下來我們再看行政院提出的復議理由認為總統進行國情報告是違反憲法"},{"start":12849.761,"end":12877.905,"text":"再一次彰顯行政院與大法官之拘我想您認為行政院可以超越司法院來代表大法官解釋我想請問院長很簡單問你如果立法院邀請總統來立法院進行國情報告總統可以拒絕嗎?總統可以決定可以拒絕嗎?回答可或不可嗎?我不能對總統回答但是總統可以決定應立法院之邀來不來總統可以決定有沒有義務?"},{"start":12879.384,"end":12893.202,"text":"憲法上規定是的是總統可以決定有沒有義務沒有義務沒有義務這你的回答所以院長誠懇的告訴你你根本不了解憲法本席真的存疑啊"},{"start":12893.939,"end":12913.488,"text":"依照中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第四項國家安全大政方針屬於總統的職權總統依照我們立法院職權行使法的規定他必須就立法院每年集會時聽取向立法院來做國情報告立法院可以邀請他來他可以來總統可以來"},{"start":12917.309,"end":12935.255,"text":"國家重大方針他必須來做報告所以照相關的規定他就是必須來所以你在今天還跟我講說他沒有義務來那你有在尊重立法院嗎?立法院邀請他總統可以不來啊?他可以決定在民主國的原理之下總統會充分尊重立法院但是他可以決定你根本沒有尊重憲法"},{"start":12946.088,"end":12971.236,"text":"憲法就規定最高的民意機關可以邀請他來他還可以拒絕不尊重民意啊非常離譜啦你們就是在違背憲法謝謝林思明委員的發言謝謝卓院長的說明報告全院委員會我們上午的詢答進行到此為止下午兩點三十分繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":13120.683,"end":13130.892,"text":"Wait wait wait test test 123 123辦公室 123 123辦公室 123 123"},{"start":19336.641,"end":19336.702,"text":"本集完"},{"start":21609.413,"end":21624.298,"text":"全院委員會 現在我們繼續開會進行詢答首先我們請賴瑞隆委員請發言好 院長 請卓院長麻煩請卓院長"},{"start":21634.605,"end":21662.435,"text":"委員長早上聽了你的詢答想問一下早上你的詢答我看到你有很多時候在回應等等的時候看來有些的立委們其實並不是很滿意你會不會擔心早上你的詢答有涉及到藐視國會跟涉及到反質詢特別是這次事件案的內容裡面就是覆議案的內容裡面早上我都依據先前的書面報告跟口頭報告的內容向委員來答詢"},{"start":21663.84,"end":21681.688,"text":"但是我是希望說今天這兩天的全院委員會既然是設定在覆議案那我們應該鎖定這樣的焦點但是大家所擔憂什麼叫做反諮詢其實沒有清楚的定義如果不滿意甚至願會多數而這個話有可能就用反諮詢來來幫你移送包括"},{"start":21682.268,"end":21682.668,"text":"院長同意這樣的看法嗎?"},{"start":21706.798,"end":21726.566,"text":"完全沒錯我早上形容過我如果是一般的國人第一次站在立法院裡面接受這樣的詢問心裡的壓力非常大在詢問的過程當中難免會有一些不是原來的意思的講話出來那這樣就應該被科以罰緩或是說政府官員就因為這樣子要科以刑責我覺得這個在"},{"start":21728.008,"end":21728.989,"text":"委員長也要保護每一位國人"},{"start":21748.736,"end":21751.337,"text":"感謝委員我如果依照憲法提出覆議那應該是大家心平氣和的來討論而不是在諮詢的過程"},{"start":21775.848,"end":21804.074,"text":"又那麼嚴厲的好像提出覆議是一個萬惡不赦大罪一樣那這樣子我覺得憲法的設計就違背了規則如果有違憲至於甚至有侵害人權連提覆議都不能覆議那我認為這個才是失職失責啦我認為這個所以我認為其實院長可能針對有問題的部分本來就該提出來這是憲法上賦予行政院的一個權責我也認為應該這麼做那我們當然更期待是禮拜五的時候經過每一個委員充分的思考之後"},{"start":21805.395,"end":21816.012,"text":"有相當多的爭議性我們也期盼能夠來通過這樣一個覆議讓這些有爭議性的回到院會委員會再討論我最近這幾天常聽到很多人就想說我們上電視來做辯論"},{"start":21818.902,"end":21837.941,"text":"要進到電視辯論那何不回到立法院內既然都知道有爭議有問題的話那何不回到立法院內再好好討論為什麼要讓一個充滿爭議充滿問題的一個法案來開始來推動這個對人民對國家都是一個不好的院長應該同意這樣的方向委員的立體的觀點"},{"start":21839.584,"end":21855.298,"text":"其實從今天早上的民調最新的民調看出來有47.4%是贊成覆議只有25%是不支持的所以顯然國人多數也是支持著行政院依法依憲來提出相關的覆議我們來看一下民調的顯示國民黨跟民眾黨兩黨的不滿意度"},{"start":21859.441,"end":21886.573,"text":"幾乎都飆高起來這一段時間都達到了57.8跟56.8這個都非常的高表示說這一段時間在野黨立委的這樣的強行的通過的這個法律的這個狀況其實是人民是有所不滿的但我們要來期盼這樣的不滿其實是給予說的政治人物都有一定的警惕如果發現有問題了那其實該做的不是強行再通過而是應該停下來重新再回到立法院來重新做討論"},{"start":21887.293,"end":21914.349,"text":"我認為立法院讓每個立委充分來討論我們一定有辦法制定一個更好的法案是一個真正的改革陽光的法案而不是一個擴權濫權的法案院長同意這樣的看法嗎?謝謝委員我認為所有的國人都一樣國會改革四個字沒有人會反對但他的精神應該是讓國會更有效率立法品質更好每個國會議員會更受到尊重整個國會的形象會更好"},{"start":21915.009,"end":21915.149,"text":"一周憲法規定"},{"start":21942.608,"end":21971.861,"text":"覆議案沒有過行政院就只能接受那行政會提出釋憲案嗎?我也沒有其他的選項那我現在所知民主進步黨立法院黨團有提出釋憲案那我們看看這個如果未來的有辦法透過另外的憲法的救濟讓整個事件能夠更圓滿的達到下一個階段對人民的權利的保障的話我們再做認識的思考如果覆議被否決的話認為每個相關的機關涉及到的其實都應該要提出來了齁其實不只是"},{"start":21972.741,"end":21981.644,"text":"民進黨黨團、行政院、監裁院的調查全部有些被受到影響,甚至於總統府都可以做思考。我們講的是一個制度,不是講個人。國家要照憲政制度走,才是一個穩健的國家運作體制。"},{"start":21996.989,"end":22012.72,"text":"所以我看了一下今天早上的民調其實對於總統包括對院長幾乎都是48、47這樣一個很高的支持度所以顯然這段施政院長這樣整個內閣算穩健的風格其實國人是支持的"},{"start":22013.26,"end":22014.06,"text":"院長你的看法呢?"},{"start":22042.526,"end":22064.464,"text":"國家還是要遲步的往前走,憲法設計的所有精神不要卡在這裡,所以退一步說,如果覆議案能夠過,那所有的事件案都會停下來,重新好好在立法院,由立法院內部很審慎的來審條,審查沒辦法解決問題。但是現在中華修正部分條文有可能如果被覆議否決的話,有百分之四十一"},{"start":22065.666,"end":22067.348,"text":"以37.5支持提不信案"},{"start":22081.367,"end":22100.302,"text":"有一百多個學者一百三十歲法律學者跟兩百個律師都連署多數的法律的專業都認為其實這個是擴權應該要重新再審慎應該要支持這樣覆議但是如果禮拜五的時候藍白國民黨跟民眾黨還是堅持要否決要覆議的話我認為將來一定會提出釋憲而這樣的釋憲結果我認為兩黨的領袖應該負起政治責任"},{"start":22105.306,"end":22125.352,"text":"不能夠只要求行政院長負責我認為你是依法提出來該做的覆議我反而認為如果事件結果出來了藍白強行要這樣過而事件結果出來的話我認為藍白的主席應該要下來負責這個當然不用院長答覆啦我認為這是個政治的問題但是我認為唯有這樣才能夠負起政治責任才能夠讓整個事情更加理性"},{"start":22125.752,"end":22146.439,"text":"所以我們呼籲藍白兩黨的主席應該審慎來思考怎麼樣來包括朱立倫包括柯文哲主席應該整個來思考國家長治久安如果你堅持要用黨的力量來推動來否決到復議的話那你將來視線如果過的時候你不顧這麼多專家的意見而執意這麼做那應該要負起政治責任"},{"start":22147.159,"end":22174.596,"text":"接下來我們來聽一下先後線齁包括要求總統及時回答 這個很清楚就是違憲清楚的違憲 憲法很清楚知道得聽舉總統的國情報告跟你要求總統應依序及時回答 總統要7日內回覆 嚴重的違憲這些白紙黑字 我不懂為什麼藍白的義務會強行這樣過 這個非常清楚吧 院長這是非常清楚的跟憲法完全抵觸 不僅是及時回答及問及答 而且是定期"},{"start":22176.115,"end":22202.621,"text":"請總統到這裏來到國會來報告這個得聽取是立法院有主動權包括總統也有主動權願不願意這是一種相互尊重的一個體制關係立法院是在監督行政院行政院對立法院負責憲政體制上是這樣子總統不能這個定得這麼清楚還可以這樣定我認為都是非常誇張包括侵害人權的部分也是啦你看社會有關係的人等的時候當院會決議的時候如果你不提供資料你就要被罰一萬以上十萬以下連續罰"},{"start":22203.601,"end":22218.272,"text":"包括無正當理由、拒絕表達意見包括拒絕證言、拒絕提供資料經過院會的決議就要罰一萬以上十萬以下罰款這個都已經嚴重的超越到了這個侵犯到人權的部分我們認為這個非常有疑慮都應該要審慎來討論"},{"start":22222.332,"end":22247.428,"text":"包括反質詢的部分反質詢剛剛講到了嘛定義這麼不明的狀態下說你對只要涉及到這個部分院會決議就有可能被處罰這對所有的公務員在台上不是只有院長不是只有部長一般公務員有可能上質詢台所以我認為這些應該都要審慎所以我們還是要再次呼籲我們希望支持復議能夠來反對破權我們希望週五的覆議案能夠順利的來通過讓國家建立一個穩健的一個體制"},{"start":22253.292,"end":22277.883,"text":"謝謝賴慾龍委員的發言,也謝謝卓院長的說明。接下來,我們請登記第15號賴世保委員發言。謝謝主席以及各位先生,有請行政院的卓院長。再請卓院長說明。"},{"start":22287.134,"end":22315.151,"text":"來委員好欸 院長你好你還沒上台之前啊外界對你的評價是軟軟有溫暖然後呢很容易溝通easy going姿態低結果現在不是欸覆議案什麼意思覆議案就是立法委員經過大院的多數決通過的案子啪你一個巴掌打過來"},{"start":22316.752,"end":22336.119,"text":"我才發現說,噢,不是軟爛餒是笑面虎餒笑嘻嘻的啪一個巴掌過來覆議案是對立法院打一個大巴掌我們來看過去的覆議案是什麼過去十個覆議案都是行政部門針對行政部門"},{"start":22338.402,"end":22362.389,"text":"比如說《會計法》、《地政事法》十一號在1993年的連戰針對《立法院主持法》第十八條但是行政院後來撤回了行政院基本上要尊重立法院你當過立法委員我們就是一票一票選出來的你這次還沒有選票基礎你就是賴清德喜歡找你當行政院長"},{"start":22364.175,"end":22388.185,"text":"對不對,所以你現在看,你看這個樣子,從容笑容到底消滅了,啪一個幫長打過來,非常不友善的,非常不友善的,非常不友善,我沒有叫你回答你先不要回答,要尊重我,時間我的我就十分鐘而已,非常不友善,這個我就告訴你整個story,你的牙膜我就很清楚了"},{"start":22390.169,"end":22414.712,"text":"執政長 輸不起啊國會少數不敢關啊賴清德四層不敢關啊你知道嗎 他剛才委員講民調多高多高不要忘了喔 賴清德一個月來他少了兩百萬票這是山水民調做的然後民調做的一樣支持國會改革六層挺國會調查調查結果為什麼"},{"start":22415.765,"end":22437.173,"text":"因為過去八年來鼻咽太多,雞蛋的問題、疫苗的問題等等,都是問題。我給你看一個民調太多人講了,我就不講民調,講AI,最流行的AI,黃能勳。AI,大家熟悉的CHAT、GBT,請問你知道有一個叫TADE嗎?T-A-D-E你知道嗎?"},{"start":22438.615,"end":22466.422,"text":"知道嗎?這是賴清德那時候在去年的九月提到AI就是國力AI應該擁有台灣要擁有AI的對話引擎國科會很快地做出來TED怎麼說你的互議案?TED講的喔我們develop我們develop執政黨試圖用行政力量"},{"start":22468.4,"end":22489.342,"text":"與黨部動員民眾去對抗推翻國會已經經過民主表決通過的國會改革法案這種做法屬於反民主的獨裁行為然後check的GBT國際AI深圳市議員也是如此你們這種行為行政院"},{"start":22490.779,"end":22506.784,"text":"然後加上這個發動民眾執政黨發動民眾這個就是反民主獨裁這個大家看得到何俊平在這裡就發動了其他的立委在這裡發動來喔大家來喔怎麼沒有發動你沒發動民進黨發動了對不對反民主獨裁行為"},{"start":22513.608,"end":22530.739,"text":"臺灣的國科會發展出來的 AI 性的語言就講你是反民族獨裁行為國際的 ZGBT 一樣反民族的獨裁行為這是這個請回答第一"},{"start":22532.273,"end":22546.1,"text":"覆議這個權利只是憲法給你這一次完全是立法委員職權行使法干你什麼事啊所剩這麼長所剩這麼長的管道立法院的事情人家的覆議案還是不要答覆"},{"start":22550.672,"end":22555.615,"text":"這次立法院的職權行使法如果只是牽涉到委員在內部的表決、問政等等沒有牽涉到一般的國人"},{"start":22576.4,"end":22591.816,"text":"政府人員、機關、法人、團體、部隊的話那就是立法院內部的行為的規範但是它確實以及外界的所有包括一般的國人都可能發生這種權利被傷害的這個可能之餘所以我必須站在這個觀點上"},{"start":22593.37,"end":22596.011,"text":"院長不是這樣講我們這個案子現在通過的只有柯靖民以前國會改革的版本顧立雄現在坐在這裡"},{"start":22610.679,"end":22623.843,"text":"林佳龍,我們只有他的八成啊!當然不一樣,我們的輕微,比較light,light,light,他們很重啊!郭立正提得很嚴重啊,苦力啊!那重點在這裡,重點都不是這裡啊!"},{"start":22627.984,"end":22651.316,"text":"重點就是你被人家玩耍被柯建民當柯建民的小弟就配合互議然後動員然後開始這個未來就提大法官事先民進黨出來一定提事先因為後天他一定不會過事先來一定不會過你明知道不會過硬要傳因為你沒辦法你沒辦法做決定"},{"start":22652.13,"end":22665.839,"text":"我覺得身為行政院我有責任提出因為整個來講就變成說整個社會剛選完勒老百姓噴到我都說啊有些教授說賴委員賴教授Give me a break"},{"start":22667.875,"end":22669.556,"text":"所以各個政黨為甚麼不能休息呢?為甚麼你們不讓政府"},{"start":22688.712,"end":22689.853,"text":"我們來看一下總統府成立三個委員會這個氣候變遷"},{"start":22719.008,"end":22737.716,"text":"全民防衛健康台灣全民防衛這是總統的職權我可以接受另外兩個是你的勒老實講看下一頁憲法五十三條規定喔行政英文為最高行政機關"},{"start":22739.994,"end":22765.282,"text":"他侵犯你的行政權總統侵犯你的行政權總統是國家元首對外代表國家但是憲法定了這麼清楚你現在講這個違憲總統這個做法就是違憲他踐踏你的行政權分割你的行政權所以難怪你現在變成乖跑包然後你的歌員一個一個本來人才像比如說經濟部長郭志輝"},{"start":22767.803,"end":22768.483,"text":"竟然找童子賢啊!"},{"start":22798.184,"end":22816.675,"text":"當副召集人啦!召集人是總統,副召集人童子賢,欸!機關插你唇口!感覺童子賢是勇兒的!原來郭時輝跟童子賢是同個調調,郭時輝為了要當官出賣自己的良心!"},{"start":22817.737,"end":22819.779,"text":"出賣自己的良知,讓全民吐氣。"},{"start":22833.285,"end":22845.072,"text":"他就是出賣良心對方出賣良心為什麽他原來講合二合三可以研議為了台灣供電為了要在這裏設設場需要大量運電還要研議核電廠為什麽你們把他打回票"},{"start":22850.895,"end":22860.203,"text":"委員不知道河山廠如果研議要多久時間他不能發電這個是事實的問題所以這個是總統侵犯你的權利這是違憲的很高興委員回到憲法來你終於回到憲法了很高興這個有可能就充其核電喔這個伏筆埋得很深喔"},{"start":22876.836,"end":22877.716,"text":"所以確定沒有核電那就算"},{"start":22909.76,"end":22917.911,"text":"謝謝賴氏寶委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明。接下來我們請登記第16位陳廷飛委員發言。"},{"start":22933.325,"end":22934.386,"text":"主席卓議員主席卓議員"},{"start":22953.936,"end":22955.157,"text":"包括委員包括"},{"start":22983.635,"end":23005.812,"text":"若干的委員通過裡面的內容很多到現在就欠缺法律的明確性我們無法定義它我們在這裡經常有這樣的經驗在這裡尋答還有一點點知道如何去面對一般的國人是無法的所以缺乏法律的明確性這一點是非常清楚而且是嚴重的"},{"start":23006.172,"end":23034.11,"text":"所以我們會提出覆議是因為缺乏法律的一個依據性明確性對還有明確性所以在這樣的一個依據性明確性非常清楚的我們問了什麼叫反諮詢沒有定位沒有定義因為未來我們看到如果定位不明的時候有可能出席委員五個人以上連署後覆議"},{"start":23035.496,"end":23063.031,"text":"這一個被質詢人不滿他的意思就會被處罰兩萬到二十萬的罰還還可以連續罰而且如果出席委員五人以上連署或復議還得被移送彈劾跟懲戒最嚴重的所謂的虛偽陳述還會處一年以下有期徒刑拘役還有二十萬元以下的罰金"},{"start":23064.676,"end":23091.483,"text":"所以未來來到立法院我看這些行政官員都不敢講話了因為不要講話啊因為講的話如果不滿這個立委的意思完蛋了我可能隨時只要五個人以上連署我就要被彈劾被懲戒那我相信院長你站在這些所有行政官員的leader"},{"start":23106.11,"end":23119.515,"text":"所以當然希望這樣的結果不會發生在任何官員或是國人的身上所以我們才提出這樣的覆議就是希望能夠再重新的思考裡面任何一個有瑕疵自在難行的地方"},{"start":23120.131,"end":23142.979,"text":"所以我們為什麼從之前希望是討論溝通我們大家把它定得非常清楚好對於反諮詢我相信我擔任立法委員我也沒有辦法接受行政官員對我們的不尊重或是對於我們所諮詢的議題不理不睬甚至沒有任何的回應"},{"start":23144.079,"end":23163.154,"text":"我們也沒有辦法接受啊可是你的標準要設在哪裡不是你高興你要彈劾他就可以彈劾他還是他講的話不如你意你就要彈劾他這是白色恐怖耶這是立院的白色恐怖耶另外還有調查權"},{"start":23164.434,"end":23190.149,"text":"你調查權定位不明也是很危險耶今天監察院有調查權好檢調有調查權現在多了立院有調查權請問這三方我們整個定位要怎麼區分啊那今天如果民眾拒絕立院的調查完蛋了經過決議也是一樣"},{"start":23191.479,"end":23210.325,"text":"可以決議處一萬到十萬元的罰款還可以連續罰甚至公務員也是一樣如果有出席的委員五人你拒絕接受調查五個委員以上連署或呼應就要被送彈劾或懲戒"},{"start":23211.755,"end":23240.266,"text":"一樣虛偽陳述者還是會有一年以下有期徒刑拘役或是二十萬元以下的罰金今天其實為什麼會有那麼多的輕鳥就是因為大家恐慌大家擔心什麼時候我會變成是那一位被要求調查而我不配合而要被處罰還甚至會處刑責的那一個民眾"},{"start":23241.877,"end":23263.182,"text":"所以才會有那麼多的青鳥因為認為立院擴權了還有立院我們的調閱權也是一樣當你定位不明的時候民眾也是擔心當我拒絕被你調閱的時候我還是會被懲處罰款"},{"start":23265.612,"end":23282.705,"text":"可是沒有人跟我講我為什麼要接受你立法院的調閱沒有人跟我講我的標準在哪裡範圍在哪裡立法委員的權責到哪裡沒有這裡面沒有講啊"},{"start":23284.697,"end":23306.632,"text":"這就是外面那麼多人為什麼質疑也是立法院為什麼希望好好談的原因我相信也是院長你們會提出復議最重要的因素因為你們要保護人民你們要保護所有的公務人員不要讓他們陷入恐慌、擔憂還有聽證權"},{"start":23309.912,"end":23317.98,"text":"我想聽證決也是一樣當你定位不明的時候你也是虛偽陳述你要被處罰還什麼叫虛偽陳述院長虛偽陳述這四個字"},{"start":23326.502,"end":23355.396,"text":"有太多的範圍而且自由新政太廣闊了這個部分你沒有定清楚你沒有講明白虛偽陳述這四個字你知道可以帶了多少的高貌嗎這也是民眾為什麼那麼多人在我們當時候5月17號開始在表決然後有那麼多人願意站出來冒著風雨"},{"start":23357.874,"end":23382.894,"text":"為我們大家來做後盾最重要的因素因為當你從反質詢、調查權、調閱權還有聽證權、定位不明然後還有行政法、還有刑法這是白色恐怖嗎?院長我相信這應該是你提出復議最大的因素吧"},{"start":23383.888,"end":23411.948,"text":"沒有錯委員真的講到我們每天在反轉思索的這個問題如果這個讓每一個國人都要面臨這樣的心理壓力的話那以後進到這裡的每一個人他如何去就他的專業來講清楚專業上的機密他如何來維護在過程當中又沒有辦法得到必要的時候得到律師的保障這種在正當法律程序上的欠缺以及要不就可以"},{"start":23412.568,"end":23416.792,"text":"國會改革一直都是我們從過去到現在民進黨一直堅持的我們從來沒有反對國會改革可是我們反對的是過度擴權的國會改革"},{"start":23436.977,"end":23443.891,"text":"而且我們更反對你用國會改革這四個字好像可以無限上綱"},{"start":23445.834,"end":23471.817,"text":"如果今天我們都可以有調查權我們也希望有調查權啊我們就把所有的調查權來整合大家談清楚我們要怎麼樣的限縮範圍我們的範圍在哪裡我們的調閱權要怎麼樣的依據我們的所謂的反質詢應該給所有公務人員怎麼樣的依詢還有我們的聽證權這些都可以談啊不是不能談啊"},{"start":23473.258,"end":23490.347,"text":"為什麼不談,然後就把5月17號定了一個dayline,說就是這一天要投票,不投不行,然後往前推一個月,然後在4月17號以前一定要趕快出委員會,因為有一個月的冷凍期。"},{"start":23491.838,"end":23511.468,"text":"當你壓了這些數字,當你壓了這些時間,國會改革就會變掉,因為它就沒有辦法被充分討論。當沒有被充分討論,它沒有被社會大眾所接受,那麼它就是一個失敗的國會改革。"},{"start":23512.268,"end":23540.404,"text":"所以我們不希望說拿著國會改革的大旗可是卻在做立法院擴權的事甚至讓民眾會覺得有白色恐怖對於立法院當今天收到公文的時候他要不要來啊我會被罰啊我會不會被行政處分或是我會被刑法來做拘役甚至做徒刑的一個判定"},{"start":23542.094,"end":23564.634,"text":"這太恐怖了所以院長堅持是對的因為我們不希望有國會改革的大旗造成民眾的白色恐怖謝謝陳廷輝委員發言謝謝卓院長的說明接下來我們請登記第17號鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":23583.249,"end":23611.741,"text":"指席 院長 行政院院長及政務委員各部會首長有請我們的行政院院長 還有法務部的部長 請法務部說明院長好 政務委員好今天談這個覆議案 中華民國憲法增修條文 明訂行政院"},{"start":23612.694,"end":23640.255,"text":"對於立法院結議之法律案認為有自愛難行,得以請總統合可,以請立法院覆議。在民國九十四年我擔任嚴明會的副主任委員常務副主委當初通過了立法院通過了原住民族基本法當時行政院也打算要覆議經過我們"},{"start":23643.138,"end":23670.959,"text":"嚴明慧跟行政院院長做詳細的說明也跟總統做了報告後來沒有提這個覆議今天特別請這個我們法務部部長因為這涉及到法律、憲法行政院所提的覆議的七大原因列了七項看到看了之後對一個"},{"start":23672.859,"end":23700.367,"text":"雖然考不上律師、考不上法官的鄭天才而言但是就這個就三十年的公務行政經驗來看真的是需要好好的檢討我就不依其他的委員都已經提過了國會改革法修法的時間一次專報、三次的公聽會然後多次的委員會議然後相關的這些"},{"start":23703.898,"end":23712.204,"text":"立法院宴會開了四天四夜總共委員會民進黨發言時間308分鐘然後民進黨團提了40次上會動議朝野協商總共有483分鐘然後宴會民進黨發言時間277分鐘"},{"start":23734.103,"end":23760.314,"text":"這個整個通過的條文按照民進黨的再修正通過了32條加一章的章名然後三個黨團一樣的就四條所以超過一半所以我們就一個一個來看用時間的關係我們先看這個行政院復議的理由就是說未經實質審議及討論我剛講了"},{"start":23764.492,"end":23791.741,"text":"這麼多的時間,這麼多的分鐘,這麼多的發言而且這個是屬於憲法六十三條立法院的職權是否,你們這邊有提到違反憲法六十三條的規定這是按照憲法這個是憲法第十八條司法院的職權所以司法院"},{"start":23793.098,"end":23817.737,"text":"一頁《憲法》所賦予的行政權我們看《中華民國憲法》徵修條文第四條立法院以每年集會時得聽其總統國情報告這次的修法這是立法前這次的修法明定每年的幾頁把它明確化"},{"start":23819.687,"end":23823.029,"text":"大法官釋字第五八五號,立法院調查前行使之方式並不以要"},{"start":23843.581,"end":23857.589,"text":"要求有關機關就立法院行使職權首涉及事項,不以要求有關機關就立法院行使職權事項"},{"start":23861.616,"end":23888.606,"text":"也就是說必要時並得經立法院院會的決議要求以調查事項相關之人民或政府人員陳述證言或表示意見並得對違反協助調查義務者以苛處法人之範圍內施以合理之強制手段這是一個補充解釋好"},{"start":23894.161,"end":23917.687,"text":"立法院職權行使法這次的修正條文立法院未有效行使憲法所賦予之職權限收了還比剛才我念的大法官司那個解釋還沒有超過限收還是限收在行使憲法所賦予之職權"},{"start":23920.716,"end":23926.18,"text":"不得一頁調查的目的事項與範圍違反法律明確性的原則"},{"start":23944.35,"end":23970.515,"text":"隱匿資訊﹚藐視國會﹚稀為答覆﹚稀為陳述這裡面也提到藐視國會最之規定違反法律明確性原則這裡面提到什麼重要關係事項稀為陳述對不對"},{"start":23973.496,"end":23995.789,"text":"好,我們看這次的修正條文。這次的修正條文,《中華民國刑法》增訂第五章之一及第一百四十一條之一修正條文。第五章之一,沒有錯,它的章名叫《藐視國會罪》。第141條之一的條文我念一下。"},{"start":23998.939,"end":24027.061,"text":"公務員於立法院聽證或受質詢時就其所知之重要關係事項﹖剛才你們說重要關係事項﹖不明確嘛對不對﹖法律不明確為稀為陳述﹖你說稀為陳述﹖不明確所以這個是要經過法院的審理判決﹖不是像你們的先導文寫裏面的說懷疑就要刻意行責"},{"start":24028.769,"end":24050.311,"text":"好,部長那個刑法一百四十一條之一的這個立法我們認為這是一個違反五八五號解釋的一個這個在整個一個一個聽證跟那個尤其是質詢這是一個不明確的概念我們那個立委在質詢的話包羅萬象五花八滿這個甚至跟議案無關"},{"start":24051.492,"end":24078.257,"text":"那這跟議案無關的話,我們如果去確定這個是一個真實判斷的問題,而且沒辦法去判斷這個真偽,如果說委員所質詢的是一種錯誤的訊息,我們也沒辦法去做一個澄清。那就像我們刑法偽證罪,那我跟委員談刑法一百六十八條的偽證罪是因為證人去陳述我自己親眼看到、親耳聽到的一個事實,我講的跟這個我親眼看到、親耳聽到的事實是不一樣的,所以要虛偽陳述問題。"},{"start":24079.597,"end":24108.064,"text":"那如果是這一條一四一之一這一條是涉及到主觀價值的判斷大家認知的這個差距對政策的一個說明如果說這樣不一樣的話就被指為這個這是一個一個虛偽程式甚至我們也不清楚這個是不是根柔制我也質詢了那這是一個不明確的一個法律觀念而且要用刑法的那個處罰這是違反刑法簽歷原則最後手段性原則所以這個是一個沒有拒絕這違反正常的一個法律正當法律程序"},{"start":24108.885,"end":24118.113,"text":"我再給你確認一下按照這個修正條文藐視國會罪的過程要見我先講過程要見過程要見是不是"},{"start":24121.795,"end":24147.464,"text":"就所知之重要關係事項,為悉為陳述者。過程要見識這個嘛,對不對?我們先不談,是不是?所知齁,所知是一個不確定概念,應該我們親眼看到、親耳聽到的,我們才知道這些爭委的問題。所知的是一個認知的一個差距,這個涉及主觀的一個排化。你先聽一下,是不是明確、不明確,等一下我會告訴你嘛。"},{"start":24148.226,"end":24169.458,"text":"我先問你,藐視國會罪,就這個條文所述名的,是指就所知之重要關係事項稀為陳述,是構成要件,對不對?他這是這樣寫的,是一個構成要件。好,你先聽,看一下。中華民國刑法,"},{"start":24175.595,"end":24200.631,"text":"民國二十三年的隱匿這兩個字因為這裡面你們剛才的理由都有提到隱匿好,中華民國刑法民國二十三年十月三十一號制定的就已經寫重要關係之事項為什麼這已經超過多少年了沒有修正等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":24202,"end":24207.024,"text":"稀微陳述中華民國刑法稀微陳述有沒有定義?沒有定義。"},{"start":24228.659,"end":24254.311,"text":"因為之前的判刑法部會有過非法、中華民國刑法．還有甚至的話．立法院職權行使法本來就有政黨提侵匪賊組織盪旗隔擋法條例．也有促進轉型正義條例．也有負責異例或稀微懲處"},{"start":24264.661,"end":24265.341,"text":"徐富奎委員"},{"start":24290.176,"end":24314.401,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明徐委員好院長好,院長辛苦了不會,應該的院長,我想民進黨支持國會改革但堅決反對國會濫權,院長同不同意謝謝委員的支持"},{"start":24315.486,"end":24344.334,"text":"好,院長我想經過這次的修法我自己個人覺得這個立法委員不再只是立法委員而是兼具了監察委員甚至是檢察官的身份因為現在的立法委員權力無限的大那包含我們現在聽到的包含我們的政府官員部隊企業社團跟個人都充滿在一個藍白恐怖的一個氣氛之下"},{"start":24345.374,"end":24370.08,"text":"所以我昨天在屏東辦了一場宣講活動,我們很多鄉親要跟我們行政團隊加油,希望大家加油,我們一起反擴權、互民主。那院長我想,我們怎麼樣針對這一次的這個覆議案的一個關鍵點,能不能請院長再說明一下,我們為什麼堅決要提出覆議。"},{"start":24371.684,"end":24386.093,"text":"第一個當然就是他整個討論的過程,非常的不完備,現缺這個民主的程序。再來他對於憲法的認知是嚴重的抵觸了憲法,尤其在總統到大院來進行國情報告。"},{"start":24387.441,"end":24407.574,"text":"變成一個定期的或是不定期的義務而且要急問急答的方式這顯然非常的不妥同時在調查權、調閱權跟聽證的這個過程裡面欠缺了法律的明確性法律的比例原則跟正當的法律程序對一般國人的基本法律的保障非常的不足"},{"start":24408.354,"end":24431.835,"text":"所以總總看起來我們就算不是為政府官員就也應該為所有的國人提出這樣的覆議案那我們才能保障每一個人不受這種權力的侵害好 院長那我想從早上到現在我們民進黨有很多的委員針對一個藐視國會就有提出一個質疑那我個人認為現在的公務人員是一個危險行業為什麼"},{"start":24434.053,"end":24437.656,"text":"國家還是要持續前進的但是公務人員絕對不能後悔回答我說過"},{"start":24449.966,"end":24456.869,"text":"問題現在的問題是出在於說連我們自己國民黨的召委吳宗憲什麼叫反質詢的定義都講不清楚的時候你叫這些官員"},{"start":24475.689,"end":24491.575,"text":"有一個怎麼樣一個遵守的一個準則甚至有些鄉親跟我講說叫他們的兒子不要待在中央部會太危險了趕快調回來基層公務單位比較安全這個真的很恐怖那我想針對這一次的修法我個人覺得"},{"start":24493.903,"end":24522.497,"text":"這個整個國民黨跟民眾黨是要讓我們所有的行政體系而產生一個恐懼感這樣他們才可以予取予求但是院長我要跟你說明的是根據我們現在的民調來看我們整體國人有超過有將近六成是支持覆議的我們一個很強大的一個民意基礎甚至連民眾黨跟國民黨的支持者也有將近一半是支持覆議的那針對這個覆議案院長有信心嗎"},{"start":24523.68,"end":24547.177,"text":"所以我相信台灣是一個相當成熟的民主國家不應該有這樣的法案這樣的內容來出現所以當國人認真來審視的時候每個人都會發揮一個民主國家的主人的立場角色跟他的認知所以如果大家能夠充分的了解這個法案的內容讓大家能夠支持覆議案重新審慎的再檢查一次這絕對是未來國家進步的福氣啊"},{"start":24548.496,"end":24556.393,"text":"現在外面有很多我們的年輕朋友很多的我們的鄉親坐在場外也在關心我們這三天的一個情勢的變化那我想"},{"start":24558.135,"end":24583.078,"text":"聽說北海道的老百姓又下雨了我們的鄉親這麼多來自全台各地的鄉親淋著雨他們關心台灣的民主被沒收在這邊消失了真的真的讓我們非常的憂心聽到外面的喇叭聲跟外面的打雷聲實在是餘心非常不忍我們何不在這裡好好的討論就可以不用這樣讓大家這麼辛苦"},{"start":24583.758,"end":24610.391,"text":"這是我們做得到的只要通過覆議案我們就回到立法院來討論我們做得到的對大院做得到的院長那萬一禮拜五的覆議案沒有通過那院長個人後續有什麼樣的處理的一個方式依照憲法的規定他只寫到必須接受這樣的這個法案這樣的法律案我沒有其他的選項但是繼續下去我們還可以尋求其他的憲法上的救濟呃"},{"start":24613.711,"end":24633.764,"text":"從中國流亡作家袁弘明教授從今年2月就有一個事情國台辦針對一個佔領台灣立法院制高點的一個統戰戰略的要點其中一點就是要透過特定人士包含我們的韓國瑜院長、傅坤祺還有國民黨立法院的黨團就是要運用議會改革的名義"},{"start":24634.104,"end":24636.346,"text":"我希望國內重要的政治工作的人物"},{"start":24659.298,"end":24659.839,"text":"有疾可循啊院長"},{"start":24683.831,"end":24710.063,"text":"所以我們要更加強我們內心自我的防衛跟對台灣民主的信念對那針對這個部分請教院長我想這個中共的這個文攻武嚇一直不斷包括這個軍機這個潛艇也不斷在我們這個四周這個在出沒那針對這部分我們國安單位到底有沒有掌握類似的一個相關的一個情資讓我們的國人能夠安心"},{"start":24711.372,"end":24726.148,"text":"這個我們昨天都說明過了,無論是潛艇或是民航機都在我們的掌控當中,沒有發生任何的意外跟危險的可能。對,那我們也要持續注意一下啦齁。那,民進黨我想這個,我們民進黨這次的這個"},{"start":24729.755,"end":24742.306,"text":"我會沒有過半當然對我們行政團隊是一個很大的挑戰那過去我們在阿扁總統的時期也遭遇過這個嘲笑也帶一個困境那當然依我個人來講我覺得國會擴權是國民黨跟民眾黨的第一步"},{"start":24746.269,"end":24771.128,"text":"後續他們針對所謂一個財化法的一個劃分甚至提出許多的淺坑法案這個才是後面他們的目的那針對這個部分其實我們有許多的我們的縣市首長甚至我們的鄉鎮長這幾天也很憂慮說會不會因為這樣子的一個淺坑法案一個不公平的一個財化法造成我們整個一個地方公共建設推動的一個受阻甚至這個預算的被剝奪"},{"start":24773.139,"end":24798.542,"text":"謝謝委員關心財化法我覺得這個是接下來兩院之間要好好來研商的如何保存中央政府的財政的彈性跟能力有辦法在任何天災地變或是長期的計畫裡面持續對地方做更多的挹注在這個前提底下讓地方能夠在財政的能力上也能夠有所的改善這是可以談的但這絕對不是用"},{"start":24800.285,"end":24823.28,"text":"把中央的錢抓到地方手上就可以解決的一個這樣解決不了地方公平均衡發展的這個目標因為我想我們賴總統也提到我們區域均衡發展一個重要性我想在卓院長領導的這個行戰團隊也非常清楚現在六都跟非六都其實各有各的一個發展的一個條件也有不一樣的一個狀況"},{"start":24824.381,"end":24843.81,"text":"那我相信我們主委院長也會針對像譬如說像屏東縣我們需要的交通建設、產業建設、文化建設種種之類的我們會請各部會來盤點我們都照起剛照報來我們把一個我們要的建設一樣一樣把它處理好照程序來進行是不是應該有這樣的一個邏輯思考"},{"start":24845.558,"end":24870.647,"text":"國家的體制跟國家的財政已經有相當健全的機制可循我希望都透過這樣的機制讓中央可以對地方多多補助地方能夠多支持中央那我們在橫憑均衡台灣在地希望的這種理念底下把不好的比較需要的把它提升起來那比較好的我們暫時能夠維持現在的發展能力就好這樣子才能夠把台灣整個提升上來這是我們的想法"},{"start":24871.107,"end":24899.557,"text":"是在這邊我們也是期待我們的內閣的我們的所有的部會首長不要因為這個立委會拍桌子會大聲就拖累到錢這是不合理的啦不可能不可能啦這要大聲講出來我們的北省都會支持啦那最後我想不一定要出力啦是我們是我們在地方建設上面我們共同來努力來打拼啦那我想最後一個針對這個覆議案如果不受支持那我們"},{"start":24900.297,"end":24902.518,"text":"謝謝徐副委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明"},{"start":24929.42,"end":24956.162,"text":"接下來,我們請登記第19號,游浩委員發言。謝謝,謝謝院長。來,有請卓院長。麻煩再請卓院長說明。游委員好。卓院長好。"},{"start":24957.956,"end":24981.828,"text":"延續剛才今天許多委員所提到的一些內容那我相信沒有人可以超越憲法但是同樣的憲法以民為本也沒有人可以超越憲法保障的民意那其實像今天的許多的立委除了在探討這覆議案之外也有提到地方的裁劃法的部分那我相信其實現在各縣市"},{"start":24982.883,"end":25006.954,"text":"確實是需要還合理的一個預算分配包括在南投縣農業縣也確實需要合理的一個經費的分配不一定是中央能夠全力把抓許多的政策要跟地方政府有一個充分的互動那才能夠讓中央地方一起發展那這樣子才是民主政治底下的一個福氣所以說在支持的這個"},{"start":25008.064,"end":25020.178,"text":"財化法的部分也希望行政院能夠儘速提出版本,還能夠照顧像南投農業縣的一個財政需求,還讓許多的政策不管是中央地方都能夠推行。"},{"start":25021.997,"end":25041.994,"text":"接著我們這個覆議案的這個探討之前像今天本席聽到了一個蠻有趣的新聞林佑昌他今天上節目的時候說當家不要鬧事那其實在這裡簡單講他所提的是國民黨跟民眾黨當家不要鬧事但是其實我們知道"},{"start":25042.654,"end":25071.303,"text":"就是目前的執政是民進黨執政但是沒有關係因為像今天院長所接受的質詢各有兩樣情那有的說他貼上標籤叫破權那事實上我們是希望還權於民那因為其實許多委員在過去在委員會還探討的時候也都有提到包括顧立雄委員包括柯總召所提到的一些國會的改革法案"},{"start":25071.923,"end":25101.103,"text":"其實民進黨過去也曾有版本那針對立法院三讀法案依據中華民國《憲法》則條文第三條第二項第二款的規定行政院對立法院決議之法律案預算案條約案如有自愛難行得金總統核可的決議案收打行政院十日之內,以請立法院來做覆議所以今天這個程序上是依法依慣例沒有錯但是在民主國家中遵循遊戲規則很重要否則就如同捍衛任務定義的名句中沒有規則就如同動物沒什麼兩樣"},{"start":25102.103,"end":25102.223,"text":"記者記者好"},{"start":25131.864,"end":25149.193,"text":"那所以本席善意提醒院長在這個製造衝突沒有辦法做一個朝野來去對話和諧的過程中其實討厭民進黨的過程也同時在發生那今天附議的是國會改革法案中的立法院職權行使法及憲法針對的表示國會最髒"},{"start":25150.373,"end":25173.055,"text":"基本上這些都是在立法院進行民主檢出程序規則。行政院如果覺得自愛難行的話,那難道這個指的是什麼?官員不得說謊,不得隱匿事實,讓民眾有知的權利。不知道是哪一點侵犯了行政權、司法權以及監督權?難道學會說謊是必須要的政府官員學分嗎?"},{"start":25174.036,"end":25200.092,"text":"那所以說,國會為什麼要改革?那今天來講,國會改革是大家的共識,是屬於還權於民。從過去民進黨的八年的完全執政,其實就可以清楚的知道,在這次新一屆的立法院,民進黨不如不在多數,但是很多時候啊,我們要比照一下是不是濁是精非啊。那在這裡本席也直接引述一下,勞動部長何佩珊,何部長。"},{"start":25201.133,"end":25213.863,"text":"還有那時候在初期改造國會終結亂象研討會中曾經提到一段話他提到行政及立法的失衡現象在2008年馬英九執政時期因為國民黨坐擁多數更顯嚴重"},{"start":25215.117,"end":25236.295,"text":"民主監督機制以漸漸失靈,造成兩權雙輸,尤其在總統兼任黨主席,極容易造成憲政體制混亂。因限制此現象,套用過去民進黨的八年執政,毫無違和之處。行政院的覆議案並不是自愛難行,而是直接影響了賴清德民進黨黨主席的獨裁權力。"},{"start":25237.256,"end":25266.753,"text":"那所以這段話也部長在同樣的在今日來講也一樣可以讓賴清哲主席來做參考那舊教院長國會改革已經提了那麼多請問哪一個修法是擴權?又在現在的一個民主制度下除了立法院是人民職權的憲政機關代表人民代表民意來監督權力是應該還權於民難道院長你認為說人民不配擁有監督行政的權利嗎?"},{"start":25268.445,"end":25283.218,"text":"國務委員,我想您應該同意,現在執政黨是民主進步黨,但是在國會裡面當家的是國民黨,是韓國瑜院長。所以當家不鬧事,我們有共同的責任,共同的責任,議事要進行。"},{"start":25284.451,"end":25305.665,"text":"但是在這裡還是要再跟院長提一下並沒有任何人會覺得在民主審查在立法院的一個過程之中有需要去動員群眾有需要在立法院裡面來進行這種衝突其實這個過程是可以好好的來溝通尤其是這些過去的主張也都是民進黨過去的立委曾經提出過行政院沒有動員群眾"},{"start":25306.946,"end":25319.222,"text":"其實沒有動議,但是民進黨有。這就是主觀上的認知。我剛剛委員一再詢問說哪些地方是自愛難行。早上到現在我已經將這個報告第二點到第六點"},{"start":25321.447,"end":25345.873,"text":"所以說今天來講我直接就已經預設你會提的答案那所以說行政院原本提出的七大複議理由就是你今天不斷的所提的你過去也擔任過立法委員跟本席一樣我們都在交通委員會待過你對立法院的議事規則是相當的熟悉所以說在這些過程中其實都有經過程序上的討論那包括林明熙政委也提到這頁的條文他質疑有問題"},{"start":25346.733,"end":25367.362,"text":"但是從立法院的委員會協商到二三讀,通通都有經過這個過程。那他一直強調沒有實質討論,但事實上這個討論來講是一直都持續的進行的。難道過去民進黨的這八年期間,完全執政的時候,每一個案子都有經過所謂的他林明希所講的實質討論嗎?都有經過一二三讀嗎?都有經過委員會審查嗎?還有經過復議期甚至一個月的冷凍期嗎?"},{"start":25373.168,"end":25401.23,"text":"委員的講法是一舉推翻了過去立法院所有的法案今天早上包括吳思耀委員包括鍾嘉斌委員也都說了很多我想委員如果可以去回頭看一下他們對於整個審查過程所舉出來的裡面不當的行為不當的審查的結果你就會知道我直接跟院長來直接跟你說這個不是推翻了過去所有的審查而是在於說有些話不是事實有些話是說謊造謠這個清清楚楚我直接提了"},{"start":25401.91,"end":25417.892,"text":"當初郭國文他為了幫助陳水扁的國務基要會出罪話他張昭偉十幾分鐘內就把條文送出以利益修惡法修法的時候一分鐘就送出那這個部分來講在李明希社會所提及現在行政院所主張的這些理由來講完全都可以適用"},{"start":25418.493,"end":25438.46,"text":"包括民進黨政府把公投大選脫鉤變成兩年一次搞殘公投包括在2021年12月把地方制度法為了柯建民總召的愛將林志堅找工作足足合併那這些血淋淋的例子都告訴了民進黨是可以為所欲為難道人民當家作主是錯民進黨才是人民的主嗎?"},{"start":25439.64,"end":25454.571,"text":"委員有很多現場你是不在現場場景的在勞基法修改的過程我是在行政院我們知道那個時候跟立法院有經過很多的過程我也是助理出身的所以這些過程我全程都有在看"},{"start":25455.231,"end":25480.296,"text":"所以說這些過程來講歷歷在目您也清楚你用段落的段落的一個指控這樣子只是十幾分鐘或一分鐘通過是事實沒有錯吧?早上也有委員把整個審查的過程日期都標出來我就詢問說那後面那幾天在這個議場裡面的行為難道是一個好的行為嗎?難道是一個民主的程序嗎?其實院長你自己也清楚這些過程通通都走過"},{"start":25481.056,"end":25506.773,"text":"那我舉過去的例子來講,其實你非常的清楚那是那時候民進黨完全直升下那時候審查的法案好,那再來講林明熙他提到了聽證調查的職權可以直接不以官員為例還有公司老闆、老闆娘都可以直接來做調問包括行政院的發言人陳思凱也說還可以直接要求人來聽證,要經過主席同意衝擊公司機密以東拳辣椒醬來為例這非常的扯,扯零比扯零還扯"},{"start":25507.834,"end":25520.731,"text":"立法院有言論免責權,難道行政官員說話都不用負責嗎?可以睜眼說瞎話嗎?所以可以直接這樣子說謊或造謠嗎?所以說這就是國會改革的原因啊!這不是幾個委員來認定,這個是社會大眾來看。今天來講,"},{"start":25526.778,"end":25527.499,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":25547.5,"end":25548.44,"text":"報告全院委員會 現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":25577.466,"end":25577.927,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":26161.22,"end":26161.32,"text":"主席"},{"start":26202.728,"end":26228.086,"text":"報告全院委員會 我們現在繼續開會 接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言好 謝謝主席 尤其請卓院長麻煩請卓院長說明"},{"start":26238.018,"end":26260.51,"text":"法律的制定是要扶國利民,不是禍國殃民。法律的制定是要保護人民,而不是傷害人民、威脅人民。法律是要解決問題,不是製造問題。當然一個立法院通過的法律,讓人家覺得是禍國殃民、傷害人民、製造很多社會問題、國家問題,當然就是一個毀憲亂政的法案。"},{"start":26264.105,"end":26289.265,"text":"當然行政院有這個責任要提出覆議您同意嗎?完全支持委員的講法我們也是基於這個責任來提出覆議的國會議員的權利是來自憲法跟人民我們依照憲法所賦予的國會委員職責去執行各項的這個立法院的職權包括預算審查包括這個這個議決法律案重大國家重大事項的議決案"},{"start":26291.462,"end":26312.933,"text":"不僅權力來自於這個憲法也來自於人民因為我們是人民選出來的所以我們要對憲法負責也要對人民負責一個違憲的法案所得到的權力就是違憲的權力違憲的權力只會造成更多國家的危機憲政危機如果你的這個"},{"start":26315.081,"end":26339.167,"text":"權力得不到人民的認可得不到人民的同意當然一定會受到民意的唾棄所以這邊也要呼籲藍白兩黨的這個國會議員懸崖勒馬在後天站在台灣人民這一邊站在維護憲法秩序的這一邊看整個立法的過程憲法第63條規定"},{"start":26341.343,"end":26369.997,"text":"立法院有異決國家法律案異決異決是先異後決嘛整個過程中啊大家看到從4月份開始排審排審在委員會、在軍務公聽會然後呢在經過朝野協商、在院長協商一直到二三讀都沒有完整的討論這個程序所以異就是要討論所有國會議員在每一個程序都要充分的參與"},{"start":26372.241,"end":26395.381,"text":"非常遺憾整個過程沒有讓所有的會議員來充分表達意見不管代表選區還是代表這個人民的意志都沒有讓我們針對整個法案提出完整的我們看法就在二讀之後每一個人輪流分配到一次發言發言一次之後立刻怎麼樣立刻停止討論這怎麼是討論呢"},{"start":26399.244,"end":26424.622,"text":"這是強行用多數暴力憲法精神不是要保護少數尊重少數嗎所以我每一條我都去登記發言結果惡毒的時候才讓我發言一次我怎麼樣對人民交代我怎麼樣對憲法交代所以對於這種整個立法的過程已經違反憲法第63條的規定當然就是一個違憲的法案"},{"start":26429.172,"end":26454.537,"text":"好那當然我們看到這個整個法案通過的內容這個包括立法院職權行使第47條包括第48條等等只要跟人民有相關的我要請教今天列席的跟人民有相關不管是你在這個質詢權或者是調閱文化權或者是行使這個聽證權"},{"start":26458.724,"end":26474.137,"text":"會因此受到這個國家的權力的傷害威脅的人民相關的團體我想邀請國防部顧部長內政部說明內政部劉部長請說明經濟部郭部長經濟部郭部長請說明稅務財政部莊部長也請你列席跟農業會相關的農業部部長"},{"start":26487.997,"end":26517.042,"text":"從五月二十八號從五月二十八號三途通過之後舉國華藍各行各業都可能受到這個違憲亂政法案的影響各位部長你們所管的業務我們按照第四十七條第一項第二項的規定政府機關部隊部隊就是國防部法人包括宗教法人、社團法人之內政部"},{"start":26518.166,"end":26533.802,"text":"還有社會上有關係的人包括稅務人員、會計師這些也都是還有農漁會的相關組織還有包括產業界、科技界的聲音首先我想請教一下國防部副部長"},{"start":26535.134,"end":26556.392,"text":"如果按照相關規定,你不管是文件調閱,或者是質詢的時候,或者是聽證權,你如果違反相關的規定,你就必須刻意這個罰款,這個在基層我們的部隊,我們的士官兵,他們的反應如何呢?"},{"start":26557.472,"end":26574.437,"text":"跟委員報告稍微給我一點時間就是說按照585號的解釋立法院調查權行使它只是一個輔助性的權利為了它憲法上的職權所以585號解釋也說調查權所得調查的對象並不是毫無限制"},{"start":26575.197,"end":26604.497,"text":"那他現在要擴及到這個國防部以下的各部隊那事實上針對面對立法院要負責的是國防部部本身那接受質詢的義務那所以如果要相關的調查的行使那當然應該要由國防部核定之後部隊如果是八軍團他可以直接叫八軍團指揮官來嗎他的部隊我們現在的部隊不是你講八軍團還是大部隊的那你隨便一個守備大部隊那他如果去判斷"},{"start":26605.217,"end":26627.992,"text":"他應該要本於他自己的職責所要保守的一個相關的行政特權上面賦予的一個機密或者是相關的國防或軍事的機密他如何做一個判斷當然要叫到國防部來做判斷那他現在直接可以下到我國防部局下的上千個單位的部隊去要求那任何一個小小的部隊"},{"start":26629.153,"end":26631.996,"text":"所以所有的基層士官兵、報將官士官都會受到影響,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":26655.084,"end":26681.137,"text":"我認為是絕對這樣的部隊如果他可以直接跟部隊要的話這個會影響到整個部隊怎麼去保國衛民怎麼去打仗呢怎麼去抄野訓練沒有辦法能夠抗拒在的情況之下他沒有辦法做一個合理的判斷的情況之下他會嚴重的侵害到相關可能的機密資訊不只是部隊啦內政部"},{"start":26682.011,"end":26685.227,"text":"宗教團體包括社團法人、國論社"},{"start":26687.295,"end":26712.372,"text":"紅紀議會、獅子會也會有類似的問題我想請教內政部的部長基層反應如何呢?根據憲法十四條還有我們認為符合國際人權公約其實團體治理是政府要低度管理而且高度尊重他們的團體治理所以在內政部現在所轄管的這些人民團體跟合作社大概有兩萬五千零九十二個包括委員所提到的像獅子會、符輪社、宗教團體"},{"start":26713.172,"end":26737.599,"text":"那事實上呢我在這兩天啊這個我們宗教團體有的人就直接講說阿那也阿捏我們為什麼要去立法院以後和尚大師傅祖師都可能來這邊接受詢問的譬如他們是佛寺團體或者是佛教協會那如果有問題的話變成我們要請他們過來到立法院接受立法委員的調查我想這非常不符合我們憲法還有不符合我們國際人權公約上面對於人民團體節省值的尊重"},{"start":26739.72,"end":26740.901,"text":"經濟部主管產業跟科技科技業跟產業界對這個毀線亂聖的惡法反應如何?"},{"start":26761.536,"end":26783.749,"text":"科技界應該是非常的恐懼,因為我們有很多生產的機密,或者研發的機密,所以我們有一些也不能夠科技的這些內容洩漏到國外去。產業界憂心重重,不管是科技業、傳統產業還是高科技。"},{"start":26786.817,"end":26812.014,"text":"我表示非常憂慮,對不對?對,因為智慧財產權的問題,所以大家會滿擔心的好,另外基層農漁會,農民農民有沒有可能被調來問?漁民有沒有可能按照你相關的規定,相關人員,社會上有關係的人員?我跟委員我跟委員我跟委員我跟委員我跟委員我跟委員"},{"start":26815.267,"end":26815.887,"text":"所以百工百業各行各業"},{"start":26842.198,"end":26846.62,"text":"謝謝邱志偉委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明"},{"start":26870.738,"end":26884.112,"text":"現在接下來我們請登記第21號徐玉珍委員請發言謝謝主席請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明"},{"start":26894.219,"end":26912.214,"text":"委員好主委長好我想主委長剛剛我想您今天一整天在立法院備詢那我剛剛也坐在那邊也聽了一些委員的發言我發覺其實有些委員可能對於我們這一次的這個立法院職權行使法的修正條文並沒有真正去了解"},{"start":26913.054,"end":26933.729,"text":"提出了一些擴權、毀憲、亂政,而且在恐嚇人民。我覺得這樣是相當不可取的,其實很多的條文制定一定有它的目的,那如果有什麼樣的疑問大家可以提出來討論,那不需要用這樣的方式一直在恐嚇人民。那我想請教一下院長,這次針對《立法院職權行使法》提出復議,"},{"start":26934.95,"end":26956.869,"text":"而且我們聽到到處都在宣揚說這個是立法院的這個擴權但本席想要告訴院長其實部分的立法委員其實在民進黨執政下已經自我閹割了八年那今年改選之後還是一樣繼續的閹割自己主任長知道請問立法委員對行政院長的這種質詢的時間是多久"},{"start":26959.775,"end":26969.48,"text":"一個委員30分鐘一個委員是30分鐘這是根據《立法院職權行使法》第19條的規定那請問院長民進黨委員對您質詢的時間是幾分鐘他們願意縮減時間有的都用到15分鐘有的還是維持30分鐘"},{"start":26978.865,"end":26978.985,"text":"民進黨委員"},{"start":26999.572,"end":27027.239,"text":"的政府不出聲就算了而且還處處的主導這個在野黨提出調約小組的提案比如說黑箱採購高端疫苗小吃店可以進口快篩這個標政府的弊案標政府的標案50萬的資本額的超私公司可以超這個跳過採購程序買了八千多萬顆的雞蛋還有錯誤的能源政策這些國民黨都曾經提出質疑跟要求調查但是這對民進黨一再的阻擋喔"},{"start":27027.819,"end":27045.067,"text":"其實這也是我們為什麼要推動改革的主要原因那既然大家一直提到說立法院這樣擴權是危險我想請教一下左院長今天早上賴總統有開了一個記者會提出他在總統府設置三個委員會"},{"start":27046.548,"end":27072.722,"text":"分別是國家氣候邊遷對策委員會全社會防衛任性委員會健康臺灣推動委員會但是依據中華民國的總統組織法並沒有賦予總統可以設置委員會因為在民國99年的時候馬英九總統也曾經提過要修法增訂第14條之二賦予總統成立委員會的法源但是被民進黨否決"},{"start":27073.562,"end":27079.613,"text":"導致今天賴總統成立的三個委員會其實並沒有法源基礎請問這樣算不算違憲?算不算擴權?"},{"start":27082.179,"end":27100.396,"text":"首先跟委員報告,民進黨的委員用15分鐘不是放棄,而是他們用其他的方式提出他們對國家的大政方針的建議或是地方建設的要求,一樣可以達到目的。我也希望委員可以用同樣的方式,我們也可以一同來為地方發展。你剛剛說到那個超私啦,那個蛋啦,它確實是有司法機關在調查。"},{"start":27108.399,"end":27126.607,"text":"司法機關已經扮演他應該有的角色,所以應該這個就歸屬司法權調查。我們非常期望司法機關會有一個很好的調查的結果。再來總統成立的三個委員會,我們事前都有經過密的討論,我也會成立另外一個委員會,叫經濟發展諮詢委員會。這是一個不分黨派大型的諮詢委員會議。"},{"start":27132.449,"end":27150.615,"text":"可以收集各方的意見,讓對於環境、對於健康、對於韌性防衛,也是對於立法院行政未來會成立的經濟發展提出更多的意見。我覺得院長也希望您用同樣的標準來面對我們這次修法的這個立法院職權行使法。"},{"start":27151.235,"end":27153.437,"text":"國會改革修法的過程有經過一次的專報、三次的公聽會,還有經過這麼多次的"},{"start":27172.27,"end":27198.199,"text":"委員會的審查條文或者是草野協商還有院長也召開三次的草野協商而且公聽會總共邀請了49位的學者怎麼會說沒有討論呢?這樣的討論還不夠多嗎?那而且我們在這個我們可以緩關一下立法院在第九屆審理前瞻特別條例的時候在委員會審查時這個國民黨的立委一直要求要討論有意義但民進黨的召委也裝作"},{"start":27198.979,"end":27216.438,"text":"沒聽見不理會當時民進黨不理會少數連尊重都談不上那現在呢就這樣通過了這個當時就這樣通過了前瞻條例可是現在早上我聽院長的報告說希望多數能夠尊重少數那當時為什麼不尊重少數呢"},{"start":27217.902,"end":27239.355,"text":"行政院的標準真的是雙標這個表格今天已經看過好幾次了顯然是大家一同做一個表格我一再提出三場公聽會三場公聽會早上我故意不講我是要讓委員自己說出來兩場民進黨的公聽會民進黨主持的公聽會是在討論被你們封殺的民進黨的版本"},{"start":27240.965,"end":27267.906,"text":"這次通過的版本其實有有二十幾條都是民進黨的版本我們並沒有封殺版本所以請院長院長這個部分要了解清楚我們絕對不是這樣的一個方式那另外再請教卓院長請問貴院的這個附議函中的說明二指出行政院依法行政法律案違反憲法對於行政院而言有治案難行之處請問院長"},{"start":27269.767,"end":27276.01,"text":"行政院是依據中華民國憲法的哪一條規定可以解釋憲法?我現在要請教院長的是,行政院可以解釋憲法嗎?"},{"start":27297.006,"end":27324.406,"text":"這不應該是司法院在解釋憲法所以說在這個條文提出覆議的其中一條寫說這個是違憲那司法院都還沒有解釋違憲為什麼行政院就可以說是違憲所以我想在行政院的覆議案中已經扣立法院這個這個我們的違憲的一個大帽子了已經僭越司法權的職權了所以院長您現在還兼司法院長嗎我們將來還有司法的就 憲法的救濟"},{"start":27325.086,"end":27340.222,"text":"另外再請教您一下既然我們要談到憲法我想請教您幾個憲法層次的問題根據中華民國憲法增修條文前言會因應國家統一前的需要依照憲法第27條第一項第三款跟第174條第一款的規定"},{"start":27342.264,"end":27365.082,"text":"徵修本憲法條文那憲法徵修條文十一條也規定自由地區跟大陸地區間人民權利的義務關係跟其他事務的處理得以法律為特別的規定也就是兩岸人民關係條例請問院長何謂國家統一前何謂自由地區與大陸地區我知道我原來講的是大陸跟台灣都是中華民國那院長你認為呢你認為呢我認為"},{"start":27370.779,"end":27373.742,"text":"中華民國有分自由地區跟大陸地區這是我們憲法的規定我想您身為中華民國的行政院長應該不會否認這樣子的"},{"start":27392.95,"end":27419.958,"text":"中華民國目前的治權只及於台澎金馬所以說賴總統所說的兩岸互不隸屬您認為是兩岸互不隸屬還是兩國互不隸屬是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬所以說這個就是指說一個中國各自表述的意思嗎這不是哪有一個中國的問題這是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬所以您的意思是兩國互不隸屬的意思嗎中華民國就是主權獨立的國家"},{"start":27422.569,"end":27434.68,"text":"中華民國是主權獨立的國家所以說我們就包含了自由地區跟大陸地區這不就是我們憲法裡面規定的嗎我從來不認為當初是從臺北飛到大陸去是從中華民國飛到中華民國不是吧"},{"start":27437.722,"end":27455.833,"text":"請問你從臺北飛到高雄,你從臺北飛到澎湖,這樣不是也是中華民國飛到中華民國啊?委員飛過去大陸的是從中華民國飛到中華民國嗎?不是啊那請問一下,我就剛剛跟請教你啊,我從臺北飛到桃園,我飛到這個我們澎湖,這樣算不算是中華民國飛到中華民國?當然是"},{"start":27456.954,"end":27483.062,"text":"所以我想院長這個部分也要再就教於您就是好這次提到的就是說您的附議的韓文中有提到說這個舉手表決那其實我想對於舉手表決來說針對立法院的議事規則第35條規定總共有五項的表決第二項就是舉手表決院長您當過這個立法委員您應該知道立法院議事規則第35條有規定"},{"start":27484.702,"end":27485.082,"text":"謝謝徐議貞委員的發言也謝謝左院長的說明"},{"start":27513.137,"end":27514.66,"text":"接下來我們請登記第22號陳樹岳委員發言"},{"start":27541.751,"end":27541.931,"text":"主席"},{"start":27554.298,"end":27573.727,"text":"主任長午安辛苦了這一次行政院就是針對藍白強推的這個國會擴全法案來提出這個復議那目前就是有這個臺灣民意基金會做了這個民意的調查有高達五成二的民眾支持我們行政院提出復議這個院長有注意到這個訊息嗎"},{"start":27579.64,"end":27595.706,"text":"事實上在這一次的立法院職權行使法跟刑法的在院會表決的過程因為不是討論沒有討論就是在直接表決的過程這個四天裡面從第一天的5月17號5月21號5月24號5月28號都有公民自主的來立法院外來聲援跟關心人數從"},{"start":27605.51,"end":27621.157,"text":"近千人到三萬、十萬、七萬這麼多的人數院長您知道這些不分老中青的公民來到立法院外來聲援你知道是什麼原因驅使他們站出來嗎"},{"start":27623.394,"end":27644.643,"text":"來到這裡的立法院外面的這些朋友們應該是認為自己在國家裡面基本的人權受到了傷害在看到立法院在整個審查職權行使法的過程當中他們沒有發覺符合形式上的任何正義以及很多在內容規定上是不明確的、是空洞的"},{"start":27645.143,"end":27656.722,"text":"所以也對於憲法的一個捍衛的精神所以他們願意挺身而出像現在我們都不知道外面是否在下雨但他們還是在吶喊我覺得我們應該努力讓他們不必這麼辛苦"},{"start":27657.182,"end":27679.06,"text":"是的,事實上在這四天的院會的表決的過程當中這麼多的青鳥來到立法院外來聲援那這個實例也有做了一份的這個民調事實上來到這個院外的這些青鳥朋友有高達92.6%他們是認為這個法案的審查程序不合理"},{"start":27680.081,"end":27706.494,"text":"所以有害民主他們認為沒有討論不是民主所以他們站出來但我們看到更感動的是在這個過程當中有一個應該是國中的男生他從台中下課趕過來他舉一個海報說他這個下課來到青島東他怕台灣的民主下課了所以讓我們看了真的非常的感動所以在這幾次的這些青鳥朋友們"},{"start":27707.054,"end":27707.074,"text":"委員長"},{"start":27731.244,"end":27740.933,"text":"對的 我希望大家 正如我說的 大家都有民主的DNA為國家的更進步 應該有一個更好的法案所以希望能夠用覆議的方式 讓大院重新審視內容"},{"start":27742.715,"end":27761.872,"text":"事實上今天從早到現在也是很多藍白的委員一直在說這個過程有討論有公聽會剛剛有委員說有三次的公聽會有學者這個不是討論嗎他真的搞錯了因為公聽會是要徵詢專家學者的意見"},{"start":27763.112,"end":27765.133,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":27792.364,"end":27815.985,"text":"招委排審的這個會議的時候他們在質詢完進入主條的時候他們就是全部都保留沒有讓我們主條的討論全部保留要送院會來協商到院會也沒有實質的一個協商所以這就沒有實質的討論啊所以這一點很多的中學生小學生都看得很清楚了"},{"start":27816.885,"end":27840.278,"text":"我們很遺憾就是說有的藍白的委員到現在還在自己在欺騙自己那包括在我們民進黨的委員這個專家兵召委排審的這個會議藍白委員竟然用強行表決的方式來散會把我們民進黨的一個法案全部都打包了這個真的是非常的阿拔的行為"},{"start":27841.418,"end":27867.578,"text":"所以這樣子的一個作為跟過程真的是讓很多的青年朋友很多的公民看不下去了所以他們才會自己自動自發的來到立法院外來關心因為這個民主真的是得來不易我們也希望就是這個民主不僅是我們現在這一代人享有我們也希望讓我們的下一代世世代代都能夠享有這樣子的一個民主的成果"},{"start":27868.439,"end":27889.093,"text":"所以在這次的這樣子的一個輕描的行動裡面審查程序的不合理包括這個黑箱在這個條文就是他不僅把我們民進黨的法案改革的內容就是打包之外他們甚至在5月17號要開這個院會的前一天晚上"},{"start":27890.407,"end":27906.572,"text":"王國昌自己接受這個記者的訪問的時候他自己也很明白的說這個動議的內容是他跟翁小林委員直接討論的那這個記者問他內容的時候他甚至也說這是最高機密所以他自己明白的都說是最高機密的"},{"start":27907.711,"end":27925.162,"text":"難道這不是黑箱嗎?所以我們講的都是一個事實的一個過程跟陳述所以我們不是在造謠那我想這個民眾自己都看在眼裡也自有公平所以在這一次藍白強推的這一個國會的擴全法案"},{"start":27925.942,"end":27932.406,"text":"實際上是假改革增擴權,因為其中有很重要的幾點,一個就是侵犯了我們人民的基本的人權,"},{"start":27945.194,"end":27966.372,"text":"在這個調查選的行使上面他要求說政府機關部隊法人團體或社會上有關係的人員就是只要有調查的需求他就必須在5日內提供相關的文件等等要來提供那如果不提供的話甚至就是會被處以這個罰款一直到改正為止"},{"start":27967.092,"end":27987.021,"text":"所以這樣子的話真的就是侵犯到人民的基本權利了那甚至說在這個人民出席調查聽證的時候要請律師進來還要主席的一個同意我想這個都是非常嚴重的去侵犯到人民的一個基本人權了那再來就是侵犯這個行政權的一個部分"},{"start":27988.191,"end":28015.925,"text":"在這次的這個改革的法案裡面就是他有提到這個增訂了不得反質詢就是針對官員的部分不得反質詢還有不得虛偽陳述不得有這個藐視國會等等可是就這個部分何謂反質詢何謂藐視國會連他們自己的昭偉吳宗憲都沒有辦法清楚的定義所以他要叫如何叫這個官員來遵守這樣子的一個法令呢對不對"},{"start":28017.141,"end":28044.651,"text":"這一個部分我們也要去思考我們民主國家每個人民都有這個言論的一個自由那當然民意代表可以有質詢甚至享有這個言論免責權可是官員也有權利也有這個言論的自由去捍衛他的政策跟為他的這個政策來辯護啊是不是所以說在這個部分如果這個質詢者認為官員的答覆讓他沒有面子他就認為說是反質詢"},{"start":28046.151,"end":28046.751,"text":"政府跟委員報告"},{"start":28076.488,"end":28087.296,"text":"執行、調查、聽證的這個規定當中有一個更為我內心擔心的他說接受詢問等等立法院調查的範圍擴張到"},{"start":28090.093,"end":28108.139,"text":"對相關議案或者與立法委員職權相關的事項相關議案就是今天要討論什麼這個是相關議案立法委員職權相關那包山包海所以我今天一再的要反覆的演練什麼叫做一定要在質詢的範圍中來答覆"},{"start":28109.991,"end":28110.631,"text":"所以我們基於捍衛這個人民的人權"},{"start":28134.802,"end":28138.244,"text":"反倒過來說在過去八年我們在國會改革上面我們有大幅的一個成績讓我們的國會的意識透明化那甚至在這次的國會改革"},{"start":28160.077,"end":28183.063,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":28188.687,"end":28189.809,"text":"第23張志倫委員"},{"start":28216.238,"end":28237.163,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家午安大家好先跟院長報告因為我今天身體有點不適所以有點失聲所以等一下在詢問的時候可能聲音會有時候高高低低的請院長允許我還是繼續來做質詢好那我們是不是請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明"},{"start":28246.073,"end":28260.925,"text":"張委員好 委員都保重好 謝謝院長第一次見到院長很榮幸看到院長也很覺得說第一次見面用這樣的形式跟你見到面首先要對你表示肯定因為非常辛苦"},{"start":28261.925,"end":28287.794,"text":"這個禮拜二、三、四、五每天都要坐在、站在這邊接受質詢。這個馬拉松希望你可以保重身體。不過今天主要講的還是國會改革的這個討論。首先還是要跟院長分享跟院長說明這個賴清德總統自從當了總統以後他是第一位沒有跟這個在野黨的主席來去做溝通的院長。"},{"start":28288.954,"end":28312.414,"text":"所以大家都知道蔡英文執政八年我們都擔心完全執政完全腐敗那絕對的權利也是絕對的腐敗所以我們認為國會改革非常重要尤其國會改革無法裡面有關於這個調查權跟聽證權的部分我們認為相當的重要所以當然院長你可以非常清楚在5月17號四次的院會裡面這個"},{"start":28314.836,"end":28337.664,"text":"開了四次的院會第一天在立法院的時候國民黨黨團我們大家群起為了要維護議事的和諧我們保護這個議事的和諧保護韓院長保護我們敬愛的這個周萬來秘書長那也看到了這個民進黨的委員群起而攻所以不僅我們辛苦的韓院長在第一次發聲有院長有立法院院長"},{"start":28338.524,"end":28366.303,"text":"被這個在立法院的時候被限制在房間裡面不能出來也看到第一次我們有行政人員我們的行政中外的秘書長被搶奪文件然後被進行這個攻擊的狀況後來還在冰敷我相信也是國人所不知道的那我也跟院長卓院長報告其實國民黨如果你是國民黨的行政院長我相信你可能很難在這邊站著很輕鬆的來回答的質詢的問題"},{"start":28367.924,"end":28392.409,"text":"那可是我要跟院長報告其實國民黨就是理性務實以及團結的政黨所以這邊要跟院長請益就是說本席對於這個立法院的這個調查權跟聽證權非常的重視以及國人在過去蔡英文執政的時候不需要很多的弊案繼續延續到我們的這個賴清德尤其是院長你的執政任期"},{"start":28393.129,"end":28418.923,"text":"所以我們民眾非常要知道的是我們一直在關心的查口罩查快篩疫苗查雞蛋以及查光電那我看到我們的劉部長已經上了他應該知道我在問什麼我有默契所以我們要查的連最近在查數位身份證的時候我們都會發現有診測反黑的狀況所以我們是不是請我們的同仁播一下影片我現在院長有看過這個影片"},{"start":28425.899,"end":28442.572,"text":"好,可以看到這15秒的影片這個數位身份證我簡單跟卓院長報告這個數位身份證是賴清德當時當院長的時候預算是將近42億然後後來在蘇貞昌院長的時候就決定停止"},{"start":28443.032,"end":28459.958,"text":"花了人民已經十三億的納稅錢當然立法委員要行使這個我們在內政委員會有行使一個調閱小組在查資料的時候就發現有這一大本將近一天多月的這個都是黑畫面所以我跟院長分享就是說其實我們都很認真努力"},{"start":28460.658,"end":28481.903,"text":"因為我個人我本身過去一直擔任會計師的工作,所以我特別帶了一個計算機啊,帶計算機去裡面,想不到你居然破我的工,我的計算機沒辦法對付我,全業都是黑的文件。所以請部長、院長可不可以跟我分享一下,看到這本黑的文件的時候,請問院長你自己本身是不是有嚇一跳?"},{"start":28482.642,"end":28505.763,"text":"早上部長已經答覆過了,請部長再答覆一次是,我想張委員你也是調閱小組的成員在兩次的由高金昭委來主持的時候特別有提到有關招標文件跟合約書涉及商業機密部分可以塗黑遮蔽那你看到你所謂不曉得有什麼管道出來因為按照立法委員來講職權也是調閱人員不應該隨便公佈這些資料你可以看得出來那個不是公文"},{"start":28506.223,"end":28529.916,"text":"那個就是服務建議書那所謂的服務建議書就是可能你很在乎的包括裡面的晶片或是服務建議那就是涉及商業機密那也就是高金昭偉所提到的部分所以呢我們在內政部或是工程或是行政院應該提供的內部的公文資料我們全部提供以內政部來講我們提供了87份五大卷的文件這些都全部提供了"},{"start":28530.316,"end":28553.806,"text":"所以非常清楚的跟各位報告我們是依據這個立法院裡面在成立這個調閱小組或者是我們的資訊公開法還有各支法所提供的資料那您再給我30秒鐘那有關於這個這是中央印製廠跟相關的服務建議書的廠商他們所提的服務建議書那裡面全部有遮蔽的部分到後來有部分遮蔽我們也做了若干的改進"},{"start":28555.027,"end":28582.466,"text":"謝謝部長,其實部長的解釋非常的詳細,其實我在委員會有執行過,其實這不是你的爛攤子,其實你也不用護航的這麼嚴重,其實這個的原因,全部反黑的原因,其實我認為就是執政過久的一個問題,其實這裡面代表了幾個現象,第一個,可能就是廠商對行政院的不尊重,第二個,有可能是上級長官對立法院的不尊重,"},{"start":28583.246,"end":28602.806,"text":"那我也跟這個部長報告一下其實當時我們在開這個調查小組委員會的時候我不好意思講的是司長當時就已經跟我們講說裡面沒有機密文件所以那時候這裡面的文件沒有機密那現在部長知道現在這些資料又還原了嗎?"},{"start":28604.272,"end":28630.578,"text":"跟委員報告我們的代理師長確實是提到我們內政部內部的公文是沒有機密所以我們全部提供但是在附件資料裡面的招標文件跟技術的服務建議書確實涉及到廠商他自己本身的商業機密的話我們也是依法有據請他來做這個處理所以我要跟部長報告為什麼會還原跟院長報告為什麼會還原就是民意的力量"},{"start":28631.238,"end":28657.254,"text":"就是因為我們開了記者會了以後所以資料就還原了所以這就是我們認為最不能接受的點就是說如果我們今天沒有開記者會我們沒有把這東西訴諸於大眾的時候其實廠商他也不知道要怎麼做怎麼會有的文件一下子全部反黑又一下子全部都可以揭露出來這兩邊狀況是讓人民非常不能接受的所以我還要跟院長報告"},{"start":28658.675,"end":28683.205,"text":"可是當有些廠商已經願意全部公佈資料的時候有一家公司目前還是不願意公佈資料而且內政部當時因為太早做決定了還發了一個公文說不能公佈資料就是國際顧問管理公司到現在還沒有公佈資料那一個我請問一個13頁的標案已經畫了13頁的標案13頁標案的廠商都願意全部公佈資料了"},{"start":28684.546,"end":28707.864,"text":"國據他是我們邀請的第三方公正單位只花了五百萬結果他說他的資料不公佈所以這就是我要跟這個院長跟部長講的有一些廠商公佈資料有一些廠商不公佈資料所以這樣才會認為讓廠商對行政官員不尊重而且讓辛苦的基層公務人員無所適從啊這樣你說明會讓民眾認為當天所有委員拿到的都是這一本"},{"start":28711.867,"end":28733.078,"text":"其實其中一份的附件而已他有五大卷87份的資料裡面規範的很多他的技術上的規範不可以公開然後有其他的頁面是因為這個我們基層公務員覺得太辛苦反黑一千多頁太辛苦了所以其他的文件好幾大冊全部只有提供目錄"},{"start":28733.578,"end":28756.224,"text":"好所以這件事情我只是要希望說這個未來院長跟部長這個部分一定要好好來尊重這個立法院行使這個職權的這個權利第二個我要來跟院長請議啊就是說我希望院長要保持行政中立我相信你一直保持行政中立可是我相信一直有人在干預你沒有"},{"start":28756.804,"end":28777.748,"text":"這一次國會改革行政院提出覆議的時候院會是禮拜四開會結果你們馬上火速把資料送給總統府請問為什麼總統府要拖到禮拜二上午核定下午才把資料送來立法院這是不是有很明顯的拖時間所以原本我們這覆議案投票其實禮拜三程序委員會結束禮拜五"},{"start":28780.569,"end":28793.059,"text":"一讀院會報告完畢後其實昨天禮拜二就可以來表決了結果居然要等到這禮拜五結果我們這麼多的行政官員住在這邊請問這些行政官員來為國會改革復議來背書是他們的選擇嗎?"},{"start":28797.603,"end":28806.529,"text":"所以我院長我先來幫你做一件事情我是請學友行政官員我請學友行政官員來問一下因為我覺得國會改革復議行政要提來就兩個重點第一個就是認為違憲嘛違憲由大法官來去決定就好了"},{"start":28816.636,"end":28841.195,"text":"第2個覺得行政院自愛難行現在在場這麼多的行政官員我是不是可以請院長幫忙是不是請行政院官員我來詢問一下民意基礎來詢問一下有沒有各位部會首長覺得如果國會改革聽證權跟調查權公布出來以後各位行政首長如果認為說會被我們聽證員調查權覺得內心會擔心害怕或是有疑慮有風險的可不可以舉個手"},{"start":28842.045,"end":28843.627,"text":"謝謝張志倫委員的發言,謝謝卓院長的說明接下來我們請登記第24位省發會委員發言"},{"start":28888.551,"end":28892.314,"text":"主席我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明政委員好卓院長好辛苦啦不會應該的這個我說你辛苦了不是因為說你站一整天"},{"start":28909.52,"end":28937.422,"text":"而是因為說你這個就在你剛剛才就任就要面對這樣子的一個法案要針對是否提出復議這樣子做我相信這個因為復議這個提出復議畢竟是一個重大的政治決定他寫在憲法裡面而且我們在台灣的憲政史上面其實他的次數也有很有限那我相信這個過程是相當相當艱難要決定要送復議是相當艱難"},{"start":28939.541,"end":28939.901,"text":"受益良多"},{"start":28969.062,"end":28987.135,"text":"你覺得受益楊多,我是覺得非常辛苦,非常辛苦了。你要面對這個在野黨立委顛倒是非,睜眼說瞎話你還不能夠插嘴,你還不能做說明你還要注意不能反質詢,不能被移送藐視國會罪,這實在是非常辛苦了"},{"start":28996.538,"end":29019.197,"text":"其實在我看來我相信說做這樣的決定以及今天一整天我們的討論我們都可以知道說這一次的這整個法案可以說它的違憲之處我說白一點它是肉眼可見肉眼可見就是違憲這個何須大法官對於解釋在一黨立委一直講說你是大法官嗎?行政院是大法官嗎?"},{"start":29020.508,"end":29039.14,"text":"這個當然所有對於憲法的爭議行政院當然有權認定這個法律是認為是有違憲之語所以行政院可以提出覆議覆議之後我們未來司法還有司法救濟最後的認定是由憲法法庭認定對不對這個就是一個程序那這個"},{"start":29041.96,"end":29063.548,"text":"我看齁今天一整天有一件事情我也非常在意啦齁就是在野黨立委他一直講說今天齁好像如獲至寶啦齁說這個民意調查齁說支持國會改革的齁有五成啦有五成支持國會改革啦齁那這個不只是媒體啦媒體大幅報導啦那這個在野黨立委在今天一整天的質詢也是如獲至寶一直講這個齁"},{"start":29067.253,"end":29095.39,"text":"其實我今天再去舉個例子大家就明白了齁我今天如果說立法院我今天通過一個叫做孝順父母法出去做民調說我來通過一個孝順父母法好不好不要說五成啦八成的民意我看八成以上的民意都會贊成對不對應該百分之百民法都有規定百分之百孝順父母法結果去做民調說孝順父母法大家百分之八成都同意結果一看啊孝順父母法裡面的規定內容是如果父母不吃飯你可以強迫灌食"},{"start":29097.827,"end":29124.767,"text":"今天這個法案就是這樣子啊我們掛著一個國會改革的招牌然後裡面競幹一些骯髒事情自我擴權違反憲法這就跟我剛剛講的肖徹父母沒什麼兩樣我今天如果通過一個交通安全法大家也去做民調交通安全大家也是大概百分之百但是結果去看內容如果行人違反交通規則你可以當場撞死他今天那個國會改革法案就是這樣子"},{"start":29125.998,"end":29149.91,"text":"就是掛著國會改革的招牌所以你去做民調說你贊成國會改革當然有五成人贊成國會改革五成我都覺得怎麼會這麼少應該要更多才對啊但是實際上的內容我們就要看實際上的內容對不對今天我們今天所提出復議不是針對國會改革說我認為國會改革不行我提出復議而是針對這些內容提出復議的對不對沒錯"},{"start":29154.909,"end":29175.663,"text":"今天還有一個說甚至還講說贊成這個如果有藐視國會的行為要處以苛以刑責這個贊成的民眾也有四成八今天我如果去問說立法委員在立法院裡面胡說八道顛倒是非說謊要判十年以上有期徒刑我看贊成會到九成了贊成會到九成了"},{"start":29179.413,"end":29199.272,"text":"所以這種拿這種民意調查然後來這邊沾沾自喜如獲至寶我實在覺得可笑至極了那我們今天時間有限我這樣光罵在野黨就過了一半的時間我沒有時間跟這個院長來討論我們真的實質的內容因為今天這個我們所提出覆議案有非常多的點它都是違憲的例如說"},{"start":29202.451,"end":29230.097,"text":"總統進行國情報告這個是憲法白紙黑字憲法徵修條文定的一清二楚他整個立法過程也都很清楚從過去國民黨到現在這個不只是我們憲法現行憲法連憲政原理都違背了連權力分立的憲政原理都違背了像這樣子的實在太多了但是我今天我想在最後剩下一點點的時間人民最關心的是什麼是這個法案對人民的權益有沒有侵害沒錯"},{"start":29231.479,"end":29243.465,"text":"所以我就在這整個所謂的國會擴權法案裡面大概大家最大的爭議焦點牽涉到人民的就是國會調查權對不對院長是的國會調查權齁這個其實這一黨立委一直講說全世界的國會都有調查權啊為什麼台灣到現在還沒有調查權到現在調查權還沒有為什麼我也想問為什麼啊"},{"start":29258.174,"end":29268.704,"text":"我們的憲法從1947年到今天2024年實施了77年為什麼國民黨這麼笨他在過去過去50年60年他都不給國會調查權為什麼?院長為什麼?"},{"start":29271.892,"end":29286.7,"text":"因為我們的憲法是五權憲法對不對我們把屬於外國的調查權我們有一個非常偉大的全世界都叫三權分立但是我們有一個非常偉大的孫中山他發明了五權分立他把國會裡面的調查權抽出來說這個叫做監察權我們應該要獨立出來這是他的創建"},{"start":29293.14,"end":29311.52,"text":"所以我們憲法架構就是五權憲法架構所以依照現行憲法的權力分立原則調查權其實屬於審查院對不對沒錯適合調查權是但是因為我們整個民主改革的過程國會逐漸代表他這個對民意的代表性增強了因此"},{"start":29312.366,"end":29328.129,"text":"不管是這個我們的國會改革的過程或者是甚至在大法官會議解釋裡面都贊成國會有一定程度的調查權包括我們的這個釋之325號釋之585號跟釋之729號大概這三個大法官會議解釋是對於這個國會調查權做非常清楚的解釋對有條件的那我們今天現在所通過的這個這個立法院職權行使法他裡面當然"},{"start":29342.84,"end":29363.151,"text":"我們要細講每一個點他都有違反這個大法官會議的三個解釋但是我今天要講人民今天我們所通過的這個法案能夠要出席國會的聽證以及國會可以詢問的調查對象依照這個我們通過的第四十七條第一項他的規定是不是所有的幾乎中華民國的治安人跟法人全部都包括在內的"},{"start":29371.434,"end":29387.063,"text":"如果包括政府機關政府人員部隊法人團體以及社會上相關之人法人團體及社會上的人自然人所以不管你法人你任何的團體土豐五色你的這個土豐五色是團體早上的太極拳也是團體"},{"start":29389.162,"end":29405.253,"text":"任何一間餐廳也是團體任何一個人走在路上他都是自然人都是社會上相關的人相不相關由立法院認定所以全國每一個人民他都有機會被我們的這個調查委會調到立法院來對不對可不可以不出席對有罰則"},{"start":29410.971,"end":29429.751,"text":"國民黨說沒有啊我們那個刑法沒有表示國衛隊只有公務員但是這個要罰一萬到十萬而且按次處罰捏按次處罰不是說我一次罰你十萬不是是按次處罰傳你一次你不來就罰你十萬兩次不來再罰十萬十次不來再罰罰你一百萬"},{"start":29432.885,"end":29456.496,"text":"這個還不要緊喔,你到底還不能,你能不能有律師,還不是你決定的,我們刑事訴訟法都可以律師,這個偵查期間律師都可以陪同,但是來立法院,立法委員問你話,你能不能帶律師還要看主席,同不同意的,對不對?他欠缺正當的法律程序再來,我們在司法偵查的過程,都可以行使那個緘默權,"},{"start":29458.857,"end":29486.416,"text":"來立法院不能行使緘默權你不能說我知道我自證己罪我拒絕我行使緘默權不行你如果拒絕證言也有罰則我今天剩下不到一分鐘了今天假設一個實案調查委員會成立一個實案調查委員會結果我要你鼎泰豐交出你的配方你就得交出你的配方我今天成立一個科技外流"},{"start":29487.817,"end":29500.883,"text":"嚴重程度的調查委員會我要你台積電交出交出3奈米的製程你就得交出這個製程欸所以這個對人民的權益之侵害是至關重大不可不慎支持呼籲謝謝"},{"start":29510.646,"end":29525.479,"text":"報告全院委員會今天會議進行到此為止明天6月20號星期四上午9點我們繼續開會進行覆議案之詢答謝謝卓院長以及各位列席的官員我們現在休息"}]}},{"id":"16021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16021","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e5292db7196bde6699b5fa2f296a9353419186e52af12443275947f9f99c58a0d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「財政收支劃分法」17案：\n(一)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「財政收支劃分法修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院國民黨黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員林思銘等20人、委員許宇甄等16人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員丁學忠等17人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案」等6案。\n(三)\t本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員黃健豪等21人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員陳超明等17人、委員邱鎮軍等19人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條、第十二條及第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(八)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人、委員蔡易餘等16人分別擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之一條文修正草案」等2案。\n(九)\t本院委員賴士葆等29人擬具「財政收支劃分法第十六條之二、第三十七條之二及第三十八條之二條文修正草案」案。\n(十)\t本院委員賴士葆等22人擬具「財政收支劃分法第三十八條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「財政收支劃分法」3案：\n(一)\t本院委員張嘉郡等27人擬具「財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員楊瓊瓔等32人擬具「財政收支劃分法第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「財政收支劃分法增訂第三十條之一及第三十條之二條文草案」案。\n【6月17日及19日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-19T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-19T11:44:00+08:00","duration":11641,"影片長度":"03:14:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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t":"8、本院委員賴瑞榮等16人、委員蔡玉儀等16人分別擬具《財政收支劃分法》第16條之一條文修正草案等二案9、本院委員賴世保等29人擬具《財政收支劃分法》第16條之二、第37條之二及第38條之二條文修正草案10、本院委員賴世保等22人擬具《財政收支劃分法》第38條之一條文修正草案"},{"start":1953.637,"end":1977.37,"text":"二、審查財政收支劃分法第三案一、本院委員張家俊等27人擬具財政收支劃分法第4條、第8條及第12條條件修正草案二、本院委員楊瓊瑛等32人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第37條條件修正草案三、本院委員鄭天才等18人擬具財政收支劃分法增訂第30條之一及第30條之二條件修正草案宣導完畢介紹"},{"start":1981.964,"end":2006.333,"text":"現場賴仕寶、賴委員黃珊珊、黃委員李坤澄、李委員明德福、林委員介紹、城政部部長莊翠雲法制處代理處長黃慧玲"},{"start":2010.073,"end":2033.939,"text":"國庫署署長陳柏成副稅署署長宋秀琳行政院主計總處主計長陳淑芝公務預算處處長徐永毅內政部民政司專門委員劉立芳"},{"start":2038.297,"end":2047.041,"text":"國土管理署檢任視察朱偉庭國家發展委員會經濟發展處專門委員郭永騰民族民族委員會綜合規劃處專門委員曾欣忠環境部大氣環境師檢任計政孫中偉華部參事林峰文"},{"start":2070.506,"end":2097.713,"text":"好,今天安排的議程是一、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具財政收支劃分法修正草案等17案二、審查委員張家俊等27人擬具財政收支劃分法第四條、第八條及第十二條條文修正草案案三、審查委員"},{"start":2099.886,"end":2125.373,"text":"楊瓊瑛等32人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第37條條文修正草案案四、審查委員鄭天才等18人擬具財政收支劃分法徵定第30條之一及第30條之二條文修正草案案現在請議事人員、宣讀委員張家俊等27人"},{"start":2126.894,"end":2139.731,"text":"委員楊瓊英等32人及委員鄭千采等18人分別擬具之條文。預計宣讀時間將在3分鐘。宣讀完畢以後就開始進行協商。請宣讀。"},{"start":2144.438,"end":2163.848,"text":"委員張家俊等27人提案第4條刪除委員張家俊等27人提案第8條除第2項前段修正為前項第一款之所得稅總收入25%第4款之營業稅總收入減除1.5%作為積增經費及依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之全部收入外其餘軍團委員許宇甄等16人提案第8條"},{"start":2164.969,"end":2189.564,"text":"委員楊雄英等32人提案第8條第一項未修正第二項修正為前項第一款之所得稅種收入15%應由中央統籌分配直轄市及縣市第三項同委員洪孟楷等22人提案第8條第三項第四項除中段修正為應由中央統籌分配直轄市、縣市及鄉鎮市外區域同委員洪孟楷等22人提案第8條第四項第五項除台灣省各縣市修正為縣市外區域"},{"start":2190.024,"end":2217.01,"text":"同委員洪孟楷等22人提案第8條第6項委員張家俊等27人提案第12條同委員林思銘等20人提案第12條委員鄭天才等18人提案第30條之二中央應編列一般性補助款以補助原住民族地區基本設施及維持所需經費傾向經費應由中央原住民族主管機關就原住民族地區之需要統籌編列之委員鄭天才等18人提案第30條之一中央各主管機關應就下列4項編列計劃型補助款"},{"start":2219.15,"end":2247.801,"text":"以協助原住民族及原住民族地區均衡發展一、原住民族教育、文化、語言及體育二、原住民族就業、衛生、醫療及社會福利三、原住民族經濟、產業及土地開發利用四、原住民族地區住宅基礎設施及公共建設五、原住民族地區飲水設施、水利交通六、都市原住民之健康、安居、融資、就學、語言、文化、就養、就業、經濟、就醫及社會適應事項其其他原住民族"},{"start":2248.661,"end":2257.294,"text":"及原住民族地區均衡發展之相關計劃。中央對原住民族地區之鄉鎮施工所推動原住民族重要建設及專案性計劃應全額補助。"},{"start":2259.724,"end":2280.878,"text":"委員楊瓊英等32人提案第37條,除第二項後段修正為其經費之負擔由各立法層級政府負擔第三項同憲刑法條文及第四項之第二項及前項修正為前二項外區域軍統委員洪孟楷等22人提案第37條,委員張家俊等27人提案附表一、附表二均刪除宣傳並"},{"start":2288.086,"end":2317.1,"text":"那因為今天院會那邊有在開啦齁所以大家以討論為主如果沒有意見再往前走讓大家多充分的討論那最重要的是財政部要有版本出來啦齁那所以等一下請各位多多發表意見再補充介紹郭國文、郭昭偉吳立華、吳委員好現在進行協商"},{"start":2354.219,"end":2374.167,"text":"各位委員長因為我們這個提案大概算一算有20個版本相當相當的多是不是在我們開始要逐條之前有沒有委員有沒有補充說明或看法請黃珊珊黃委員接著請賴思寶委員"},{"start":2379.4,"end":2401.786,"text":"好的,謝謝昭緯還有各位同仁以及部長、主席長我想昨天我們大概台灣民眾黨已經開了一個記者會把台灣民眾黨的版本說得蠻清楚不過我們還會再提一個修正動議因為我們當時本來怎麼配套有一些東西我們還是認為說如果可以調整我們其實是可以盡快的來做修正"},{"start":2402.626,"end":2427.671,"text":"那第二個部分就是版本上面的差異真的很多那我們也希望真的看到財政部的態度那部長這邊我也知道你們在分配都已經有一定的原則跟方式我們也希望把這些原則跟方式我們把它很明確化、制度化甚至原則性的部分不要把它寫得非常死但是基本的標識、指標我們也能夠理清楚"},{"start":2428.571,"end":2456.599,"text":"讓地方政府能夠有所依循第三個部分就是金額的部分當然我們不希望又變成另外一次互相噴口水的議案我們希望它就是一個務實到底我們提的版本國民黨各個委員提的版本甚至還有民進黨有些委員地方需要提的版本其實我們都希望知道它的差異在哪裡財政部對這些版本的態度在哪裡"},{"start":2457.279,"end":2476.985,"text":"那最重要的是我們希望不要影響到中央的運作我們當然知道中央運作的經費也很重要所以我們沒有要把它回復到25年前的精神前的比例那我們希望說在這樣的一個折衷的情況下大家可以找到一個共識訣那更重要的就是"},{"start":2477.825,"end":2505.495,"text":"在地方上面大家上次看到各縣市到台北到這個公廳會來他們光喊的錢大概就是2000多億那還不包括幾個直轄市包括高雄所以加一加3000多億可能都是他們需要但是我們也知道有一些縣市他的確沒有這個能力執行這麼多的預算那我們也希望把他的指標跟不管是分配跟將來的監管的方式也都可以明確的入法"},{"start":2506.135,"end":2523.343,"text":"那這些我覺得都是開放的態度也希望大家可以拿出自己的各自的想法然後在這裡尤其財委會我向各位委員我們這個委員會應該是比較沒有那麼多政治對立的地方所以我們希望這裡是一個很好溝通的平台"},{"start":2524.083,"end":2526.186,"text":"民眾黨的部分我們這邊很清楚的就是希望在兩個原則第一個"},{"start":2540.385,"end":2554.985,"text":"不影響中央正式運作過多的情況第二個能夠成立一個將來公開透明的分證委員會這兩個大概是我們比較堅持的原則其他的部分就要聽聽大家開放的意見我們沒有既定的立場我們希望充分的討論"},{"start":2556.406,"end":2579.774,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝黃珊珊、黃委員那因為這個大概都是預算的事情其實大家都可以好好來談一下怎麼樣是恰當的那我這邊是充分的尊重各位委員的意見請大家不要客氣盡量的多多溝通接著請賴世保、賴委員謝謝主席、葛新進這個我們看到版本"},{"start":2581.806,"end":2592.283,"text":"國民黨團的版本有民眾黨團有國民黨的委員也有提案民進黨也有不少委員有提案"},{"start":2593.652,"end":2615.399,"text":"所以基本上來講其實我們立法院這個題目老實講這個題目不是很政治的這個題目應該就是這個各縣市之間水平分別各縣市之間會大家彼此有較勁彼此有這個在希望說多要一點少要一點等等的可是幾個問題第一個"},{"start":2617.259,"end":2642.369,"text":"我就不了解我們都可以提版本了為什麼財政部沒有版本呢?所以行政院要求你不提版本嗎?又要把這個題目又先就政治化了嗎?我覺得這個題目最不該政治化了這個都是像錢的問題請問你財政部難道你現在沒有公事嗎?你心裡有一個詞在那裡我就希望把你的詞把它條文化啊你也不敢是怎樣啦?"},{"start":2645.305,"end":2665.798,"text":"不要各部位的把自己做小,你是財政部欸這麼大的一個財政部財劃法這麼重要的一個法已經醞釀這麼久,大半年了結果到現在為止你一個版本都沒有你等一下回答一下到底第一個,你是不要有版本嗎?啊不要版本什麼意思?你在亂咧?把自己降格了變成一個奴才部啊"},{"start":2671.888,"end":2690.756,"text":"說行政院怎麼講我怎麼做、立委怎麼講我怎麼做財政部要有版本啦你心裡就有公式啊請問你現在怎麼分配你心裡面那個詞你怎麼分配下去呢你現在寡寡而談說有啊個性是增加比較多啊這個也增加、那個也增加、這個也增加、那個也增加可是我要看結果啊這幾年的結果就是72對28"},{"start":2694.778,"end":2719.028,"text":"中央拿72、地方拿28哦啊現在這個側翼就講了說如果這個通給地方的話我們長照沒有錢啊這個沒有錢那個沒有錢牌誰?你們現在長照也都是透過地方政府啊等你早點給晚一點給現在等於目前的狀況就是地方政府都不知道你要給他多少錢只能夠把握著你那個"},{"start":2723.47,"end":2744.703,"text":"關愛的眼神啊 這個很悲哀啊民主國家發展到現在大家都有民意接觸哦 不是總統而已有哦 縣市首長都有哦陳其邁講話了黃偉智講話了說目前按照國民黨團版本不公平沒關係啊 那你就提你的版本大家都提版本來討論啊有共識最好 沒有共識那就看怎麼處理啊"},{"start":2750.04,"end":2778.675,"text":"所以我覺得第二點我要強調的就是說不應該用說啊這樣一來的話我中央做什麼事沒有錢做了沒有錢做給地方做啊這是什麼問題呢錢還在那裡錢沒有跑掉啊只是你主導權你不要現在就是就是高高在上讓縣市首長像乞丐跟你要錢爽這個把這個拿掉以後事先就給他嘛你不要事後再給啊這是第二點我要強調的第三點"},{"start":2780.765,"end":2785.173,"text":"針對現在來講25人沒有修難道不應該修嗎?1999年那時候就是60對40我們的目標就是60對40你是做不到那就來講啊看多少啊"},{"start":2794.011,"end":2807.287,"text":"是不是65對35也可以啊當然這個不是喊價大家一個一個在算你不能說欸統統不用蓋都這樣這樣就黑箱啊因為你要怎麼給完全看你啊看你要看主席總書這邊怎麼給我們這個就是讓他法治化"},{"start":2812.152,"end":2816.274,"text":"現在窮的縣市雲林縣很窮啊苗栗縣很窮啊雲林縣在罵我繳了稅繳這麼多苗栗縣我繳稅繳這麼多可是我分到很少啊台北市我繳了40%只分到15%啊"},{"start":2827.06,"end":2850.456,"text":"這個都是大家都喊不公平的地方陳其邁喊不公平我也尊重他我也覺得他喊有道理黃偉哲喊不公平我也覺得他喊有道理啊版本貼出來啊再這樣一堆版本貼出來現在看的話我是建議了齁我是建議如果這樣又泛泛的討論了就沒有辦法往前走"},{"start":2851.263,"end":2871.984,"text":"如果其他委員會覺得說要再加改空聽會我也沒有意見這個既然要討論這個這麼重要的事情但是我是具體建議今天好不容易大家開始了財政部沒有版本就沒有版本吧我們憲法裡面規定說一定要用你版本才能審我覺得可以逐條開始一條一條往下走"},{"start":2872.865,"end":2900.377,"text":"有一件就放著或者一條你把它討論一天也可以讓大家盡情的話會盡情的討論但是我再強調一遍財政部部題版本是很丟臉可恥的事情把字變成奴才部因為行政院不要叫你那個行政院整個抓在手上行政院現在現在擁有執政了權力Slogan很大"},{"start":2901.477,"end":2909.726,"text":"很大家覺得說國會他沒辦法掌控的所以一定要抓住都不能放每一個委員這裡面三黨的委員都有提案"},{"start":2911.618,"end":2935.699,"text":"黨團只有民眾黨團不提就是因為民眾黨團不提所以你們就不敢提就變這個樣子財政部財政部長怎麼會沉寂而死把自己做這麼小這樣像小媳婦一樣早就可以提出你的版本了對不對你可以大膽提我們現在要恢復變60、40你可以講70、30也可以提啊就你的版本了提來大家討論為什麼不可以呢為什麼這樣子為什麼70、30"},{"start":2939.178,"end":2966.263,"text":"或是降一點68對32都可以提一個這樣的東西垂直分配非常重要阿你不要扯水平水平永遠擺不平那個最後再來討論先把垂直搞定這個要有信號而且那你說到底垂直線那是水平線那簡單來講那個逐條一起一條一條走過來有一件就保留或是一條要討論一天也都可以我覺得大家今天盡量討論嘛但是"},{"start":2968.1,"end":2978.57,"text":"不能財政部不能沒有版本的這個東西這個是準備怎麼樣以後過了以後你又要來釋憲是不是還你呢又來釋憲還你呢我們都這樣子還要釋憲就釋憲吧"},{"start":2982.146,"end":2998.237,"text":"好,謝謝賴司法賴委員。接著請郭國文、郭昭偉,慢慢講沒關係啦。好,謝謝羅昭偉。我想我基本的態度是說確實財法法是需要修,但是問題還是在怎麼修的問題啦。"},{"start":2999.578,"end":3024.31,"text":"其實我們討論也是有討論的意義因為討論基本上要修之前都要討論就如同公聽會的時候我們都會有所討論我是蠻認同今天羅兆偉所採釋的部分今天以討論為主改天進行了條文的一條一條的一個審查因為畢竟民眾黨的新的版本還沒進來他還要再研修他還沒有進來他還要再研修他認為他原來條文還需要再修正"},{"start":3025.03,"end":3046.91,"text":"我是覺得剛剛那個賴石堡委員剛剛所講的一段話其實大家其實他提到說我們是不是需要再開公聽會老實說如果需要開公聽會我個人也不會反對啦因為基本上他剛剛提到一個很重要的問題就是說以長照為例的話地方做還是中央做做比較多那就是說我們這不是單純的只有財權的劃分還有事權的劃分"},{"start":3048.992,"end":3071.512,"text":"那財權的劃分當然你從財政收支劃分法你來看OK啊可是事權的劃分你必須碰到真的是地方制度法的問題啊這真的是有這樣子即便是討論只有中央垂直分配的部分就有財權跟事權的劃分喔你還不是橫向的喔也就是說我們在討論財法法不是一部財法法就是只有中央的問題處理而已還有包括"},{"start":3072.353,"end":3088.296,"text":"這一個地方制度法甚至我剛剛我之前也一直在提到的地方稅法通則是不是我們要一併來做一個思考的原因這樣子這個不是只有我個人的想法主張這樣子那一天的公聽會劉昭偉所舉辦的公聽會有好幾位學者都這樣講啊"},{"start":3089.477,"end":3107.213,"text":"有好幾位學者都這樣講啊認為他的制度面地方財政的問題不是一個單一一個財政收支劃分法可以解決更何況也不是單一財政劃分法垂直劃分的處理就可以解決的不是除了橫向、垂直、市權、財權還有其他不同的法案"},{"start":3108.394,"end":3134.147,"text":"這大工程啊 這大工程所以我是認為是說需要大家在版本上大家版本上大家互相想一下是不是還有不足或是太過over的地方來思考看看即便呢民黨當中有一些委員提案其實有些委員提案的這個條文內容也是相當有侷限性嘛也相當有侷限性他只是表態說這個財務好像有些該修的地方大家來做一個"},{"start":3136.028,"end":3146.772,"text":"事實上有沒有爭議?其實這幾天各家的版本出來、媒體的報導出來每一個黨團甚至每一個委員自己心知肚明。如果這樣心知肚明,你還要"},{"start":3150.753,"end":3177.615,"text":"強度關山那只是引發更多的爭議而已啊那何苦來哉呢在大家又花了這麼多時間在那邊做耗費這種無意義的這種生命在這裡這個討論的過程當中那我一說再拉回來講說這個財法法的部分齁其實還有許多的委員沒有進來是不是要今天注入紙條我還是尊重那個抓委的一個看法那我也同時如果是那個財政部還有主計要"},{"start":3178.836,"end":3181.257,"text":"謝謝郭國文、郭昭偉的確部長也講過中央跟地方就是夥伴的關係"},{"start":3200.701,"end":3221.729,"text":"其實也謝謝各位委員都大力為地方來爭取最好就是比以前還多啦這個是大家一定要比以前多啊現在物價上漲地方真的是嗷嗷待哺所以我們就是大家多多為民來爭取那我介紹一下我們黃宏威王委員許宇甄許委員"},{"start":3227.93,"end":3250.096,"text":"好的 那接下來還沒有委員要發言請李坤澄委員 接著是吳立華委員謝謝趙偉那其實 因為我是第一屆新進那我相信說 在過去的25年當中有很多資深的立委都在這邊那25年來 財化法為止為什麼都沒辦法好好的修那表示就是說爭議性蠻大的"},{"start":3251.994,"end":3269.751,"text":"聽我講完嗎?不然國民黨執政的時候也可以修啊。沒關係等一下你可以講。沒關係等一下林德福委員可以講。所以我講的時候你先聽我講。就是爭議性很大啊。可不可以讓我講完?"},{"start":3274.034,"end":3288.359,"text":"責任性就是很大大家就是沒有共識那所以馬英九執政的時候為什麼不修馬英九執政的時候你們也是在國會也是多數為什麼不修那表示就是說各個縣市跟中央就是沒有共識嘛"},{"start":3291.448,"end":3317.164,"text":"尊重一下好不好對啊你雖然是資深但是也尊重一下尊重一下我們的意見嘛對不對大家都一樣大嘛好不好在這個在這個立法院裡面大家都一樣大好不好這是不要倚老賣老啦所以說今天我們來討論這個東西昨天新北市議會也有問侯友宇市長啊就是說問他財政法看法是什麼樣"},{"start":3318.902,"end":3344.453,"text":"他就說什麼有合理劃分就好那具體問他說什麼合理劃分他也答不出來他就說有合理劃分就好那再問他就是說那如果多拿這些錢要做什麼事情他也說有合理劃分就好就是一個新北市的市長至少他也要講出來就是說那如果財劃法新北市的標準是什麼樣原則是什麼樣那我相信新北市的標準跟原則跟台北市可能也不一樣"},{"start":3345.353,"end":3369.121,"text":"六都跟非六都也一定會有不一樣跟農業縣也一定會有不一樣那所以今天大家討論的例行說比如說我是新北市的立委我當然希望新北市的財源能夠增加那我就對於說國民黨的版本裡面3%要保留給台北市我就覺得說那為什麼為什麼台北市是首都就要3%就要留給台北市"},{"start":3369.921,"end":3397.504,"text":"我新北市如果這個按人口按土地面積的話那5%給我新北市好了我也可以這樣喊價嘛但是不是這樣子喊價嘛那所以說這個錢是跟權是分不開的啦你要有這個錢那你接下來你要分擔多少的義務你有多少的責任我覺得這個是要一起來談的所以我們今天是談財化法但是財化法"},{"start":3398.996,"end":3410.182,"text":"是在講說錢你要怎麼分不管你是垂直分配還是水平的分配但是更重要的是說接下來各個縣市政府他接下來的責任是怎麼樣"},{"start":3411.738,"end":3438.155,"text":"我覺得這個都要一併談那如果說你只談錢那談錢就是變成說大家在這個餅你要畫多大那六度要怎麼分然後非六度要怎麼分那我覺得這樣談就變成是就變成是說你再這樣談下去也不會有一個共識出來但我是認為要修但是要怎麼修這個不要是說什麼財政部沒有版本財政部版本就是本來的版本"},{"start":3438.975,"end":3445.016,"text":"那版本就是本來的版本,只是說本來的版本怎麼讓它更好那大家一起來討論啦好,謝謝李昆城、李委員接著吳立華吳立華委員完了以後是林德福林委員、王偉文請吳立華、吳委員好,謝謝主席"},{"start":3464.321,"end":3478.371,"text":"我這邊是想要幫原住民的部分提一下而且這個沒有爭議並且是過去修法的漏失我是覺得說我這一條可以來處理啦是哪一條呢?就是第三條"},{"start":3480.533,"end":3506.255,"text":"為什麼?因為這個部分會跟地制法連動所以地制法那邊我其實也有修正版本那邊也在處理那我說明一下就是曾經在兩都變六都的時候那有很多的六都裡面的園鄉就變成園區但是呢一度就是失去公法人的地位因為大家沒有注意到"},{"start":3507.336,"end":3529.714,"text":"在大家的一個討論之下所以在2014年那一次的地治法修法就有把原住民區的部分再把它還以公法人的地位所以那時候的修法其實是寫得很明確就是說山地原住民區的自治事項要準用"},{"start":3530.515,"end":3546.894,"text":"原住民鄉鎮市的規定這是很清楚的只不過當時漏失掉的就是地治法的財政自治事項他的稅跟公共債的部分沒有寫進去所以地治法那個地方我有把它修回來"},{"start":3547.475,"end":3563.269,"text":"所以要同時在財劃法這邊的第三條全國財政收支系統劃分要在第四款的部分它漏掉了直轄市山地園入民區所以只是把它補回去所以我想我這個部分應該是"},{"start":3565.211,"end":3589.674,"text":"比較沒有正義而且是必須要修那如果我們不修的話大家就會繼續抱怨因為他們這樣子就導致他們的稅客收入跟一般公法人的鄉鎮市是不一樣的他們是領就變成要完全仰賴市政府所以我希望這個部分就請主席幫我注意一下第三條應該沒有正義啦而且是必須要修的"},{"start":3590.895,"end":3614.03,"text":"關於地方中央的部分我個人意見當然也是覺得要修啦特別是我們看到這幾十年地方政府的總收入其實他的成長率是遠遠的低於我們中央的成長率大概26%比100%吧"},{"start":3621.015,"end":3640.548,"text":"地方是26%,那中央是淨額成長率是121%如果說從那個收支的這個是稅入的部分那如果是說從支出方面的話又遠遠的低於中央的淨額成長率"},{"start":3642.009,"end":3654.466,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分我覺得是出在一個分配公式分配的問題所以也希望大家在這個部分我是站在地方的立場因為我們原鄉常常也吃這個虧"},{"start":3658.652,"end":3658.872,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":3675.488,"end":3688.402,"text":"地狹人酬到底他所需要的建設經費到底真的有沒有比地方需要我想這個部分是我們這幾年在地方上聽到的聲音以上 謝謝"},{"start":3690.659,"end":3718.44,"text":"謝謝吳立華、吳委員那其實就是部長像他這個蔣元香原住民的應該大家都沒有意見吧所以我們就確定像你講的我們就放在心上在主條的時候我們就是已經溝通過盡量照顧原住民的地區嘛這個是就有一些東西可以的我們就往前進部長就也聽進去了嘛那介紹邱正軍、邱委員"},{"start":3720.655,"end":3732.847,"text":"林思銘、林委員接著請林德福、林委員謝謝主席我想財劃法在88年1月"},{"start":3735.648,"end":3755.536,"text":"25日,這個25年前修訂到現在已經經過25年那其實這25年來很多地方的改制啦中央的地方這個整個財政結構的改變啦那地方當然面臨很多地方的自主財源啦非常的低"},{"start":3757.256,"end":3784.367,"text":"財政負擔沉重等問題也影響整個地方自治可以說地方的建設發展真的很大的衝擊我一直認為說站在中央的立場因為這些年來每年幾乎都有超增我認為說這個本來就應該要重新來分配"},{"start":3787.87,"end":3807.799,"text":"這25年來當然經過藍經過綠的執政那為什麼過去啊這個沒有辦法去修訂主要就是因為當初因為我在財委會算是執政跟我們的召委啊羅明才、羅召委我們兩個算是跟那個誰跟那個賴世寶算是非常資深的"},{"start":3808.899,"end":3835.006,"text":"經過很多次的協商那為什麼沒有成功主要就是各縣市的財政局局長來他們沒有辦法取得一致性的等於是大家有共識但是這一次是不一樣喔多數的財政局局長甚至於跟這些縣市首長他們認為說本來就應該要重新劃分從這個整個收支的劃分如何去分配比較公平"},{"start":3835.686,"end":3845.894,"text":"那大家只要多數取得一個共識財政部就要崇善如流你為了地方的進步發展不是中央啊掌權又掌錢"},{"start":3847.196,"end":3875.595,"text":"對不對那現在地方都要看中央的臉色而且你看這幾年的超徵一兆多捏這一兆多你就拿去給補台電拿去補給誰結果很多政策他根本就是一開始就有規劃設計那些政策怎麼樣就有偏差你看你核電不用然後你電會一直台電已經補他五千多億了捏這五千多億有沒有是一個坑洞啦一個大坑啦"},{"start":3876.235,"end":3904.133,"text":"未來還是要繼續補啦你政策沒有改變永遠要補啦那為什麼無底洞啊那你就政策的錯誤比貪污一百倍可怕所以說我們這一次為什麼會裁劃法我認為說應該要修訂多數縣市只要他們取得共識本來就應該要修訂不能再讓中央集權又集錢那這個沒有男女之分因為你修訂以後分配下去"},{"start":3905.073,"end":3929.65,"text":"讓地方自治能夠透過這些財源來建設更多我認為說只要多數有認同那就本來就應該要修訂那財政部的立場當然沒有擔當嘛不是只有仰仗這個行政院啊仰仗這個總統的看法看要不要修該修則修啦要面對啦以上謝謝好 謝謝林德福、林委員"},{"start":3933.757,"end":3953.773,"text":"所以因為太久沒修了25年了齁贊成要修的請舉手對啊你看好謝謝沒有阿這個是大家參考沒有列入紀錄的齁就是 趙偉阿你問這個就問說大家要不要減肥一樣阿大家都要減肥阿大家都要修阿大家都要改革阿但是但是要怎麼修是問題阿"},{"start":3955.862,"end":3956.463,"text":"王宏威、王委員"},{"start":3985.263,"end":4009.384,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們各位委員我想今天我們有很多非本委委員也到現場來做關心就如同剛才我們那個召委所說的就是我想我們在立法院裡面應該不分黨派的立法委員都認為這部財劃法已經到了要有修正的必要"},{"start":4010.184,"end":4027.355,"text":"事實上我們之前召開的公聽會22個縣市的所有的財政局有的還是副市長、副縣長來親自出席當天我是全程把它聽完大家口徑其實非常非常的一致都是認為財法法"},{"start":4029.336,"end":4055.301,"text":"財化法應該要做修正所以我想到現在為止我們有一個完全沒有意義的一個共識就是要做修正那我們現在呢在我們這個財委會也是有跨黨派的委員提出不同的財化法不同的修正版本我想這些版本沒有說誰比誰一定更好但是我們是要怎麼樣去衡量到"},{"start":4058.622,"end":4062.787,"text":"中央跟地方之間當然我們要修當然就是要從中央多分一些錢因為我覺得地方縣市我舉一個例比如說我們最近我看到一些梗圖就開始來攻擊說這個藍白要修這個財劃法"},{"start":4077.122,"end":4099.981,"text":"事實上是要剝奪長照的權利、營養午餐的權利、這個權利那個權利我覺得這樣的做法若是來自於執政黨這個是非常不道德的事情我舉一個例子比如說最近有一個議題也很熱就是有關於老人健保費要不要補助的問題"},{"start":4100.982,"end":4105.785,"text":"我們線下來看的話其實我們在六都因為財政的狀況比較好所以呢我們都給我們的老人65歲以上老人的這個健保有給予補助但是當然有的是有這個他有一些比如說的稅的一個標準排付條款"},{"start":4120.273,"end":4134.139,"text":"好,六都都做可是你走出六都之後呢你以為人家其他縣市長不想做嗎他也想照顧他縣市內的老人啊對不對他也不想讓自己的縣市內的老人淪為刺耿公民啊但這是不是照顧長者"},{"start":4135.639,"end":4158.365,"text":"當然是照顧長者我覺得不能一個台灣兩個世界65歲的老人光是健保就不一樣為什麼呢?就是因為他們的財政狀況非常非常差我上次也提過到2020年的時候我們竟然有14個縣市自籌財源的比例低於三成"},{"start":4159.245,"end":4173.562,"text":"所以這個比例實在是太低了所以呢我們一定要做修正我們既然要做修正當然我剛剛也聽到郭國文委員或者李昆城委員說我們都沒有說反對要修啊很好啊真的非常感謝但是呢這怎麼修"},{"start":4176.708,"end":4194.083,"text":"我們現在就在做怎麼修的工程所以我在這邊要具體的一個建議我剛才也跟我們寶哥也做一個商量跟昭偉做一個報告我們到目前為止有這麼多的版本但是竟然都沒有行政院版"},{"start":4195.647,"end":4218.806,"text":"因為部長好幾次回答我們都說我們要聽取縣市的意見等等之類那些縣市意見太清楚了就是要修當然每一個縣市可能它基於它自己的政策或者它未來的目標不一樣或者甚至它人口的關係、面積的關係、農地的關係大家都希望這個人同此行大家都希望自己能多爭取一些"},{"start":4220.636,"end":4241.153,"text":"所以現在的財劃法已經到了非修不可而且不要再阻擋因為你再阻擋就是跟百分之百的民意在對抗啦我直接講啦我想郭國文委員在這邊也講說他們沒有說說不修啊要修啊所以怎麼修?行政院一定要提版本出來"},{"start":4242.134,"end":4264.864,"text":"那我們現在到目前為止因為沒有行政院版本我們今天也搭充分的討論那我直接說我們現在呢就算我們今天把它送出我們的委員會那這個會期也來不及那個來處理了嘛那所以我們也非常有佛心我們也非常有耐心我們應該具體的要求行政院要提出版本"},{"start":4265.543,"end":4285.081,"text":"那麼我也不會說我們7月16號結束之前你們把版本提出來給我們看一看但是在下一個會期開議之前你們送出版本不會很困難吧 對不對所以如果你都不送來你們繼續坐在這邊要修啊但是怎麼修好但是這個我就要講了"},{"start":4286.562,"end":4312.671,"text":"那我所有在發言的人我就直接說你故意拖延你就故意拖延你回去跟你的選區的選民說我故意講說我要修但是我們怎麼修我不知道怎麼修其實你不拿版本我也無所謂我就覺得你是故意拖延我就直接說了但是我們現在才剛剛開始我覺得我都是用很正面很善意的看待每一位所以在這邊我覺得最重要的是財政部這邊行政院這裡"},{"start":4314.131,"end":4322.557,"text":"所以不要再迴避也不要再逃避那把你們的版本拿出來我們才能夠具體去討論怎麼修好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":4337.842,"end":4345.51,"text":"財政收支劃分法已經到達一個可以說完全失衡的分配機制所以我們必須要大幅的修正"},{"start":4347.632,"end":4374.626,"text":"並檢討現行分配的公式內容。以前莊部長曾說過,財政部初步擬定提升財政自主劃一分配基礎,調記財政盈虛,保障既有財源和精進分配機制等五大方向。其中最大的變革就是未來直轄市和其他縣市要採取同樣的公式來計算。"},{"start":4376.067,"end":4397.965,"text":"也就是說要說財政部沒有想法或者說財政部不想修法其實都不是事實部長早就已經說過了所以只是有沒有擔當跟勇氣而已所以目前我們聽到或者看到的是院版的財化法的修正沒有提出時間表"},{"start":4399.286,"end":4416.748,"text":"沒有時間表,這個我想王委員也講得非常清楚,請財政部不要再萎縮了,趕快提出我們的研版的財化法。所以我想財政部我們現在看到就是說,針對我們各個委員的修法版本,"},{"start":4417.449,"end":4440.805,"text":"就是整理出一張表格來說明各個版本我們中央大概要釋出多少的財源的數字然後告訴大家不可以修法然後我們看到更好笑的就是說執政黨還製作圖表都在說要是修了法政府目前執行的租金補貼、育兒津貼、長照補貼、學費補助通通都會不見了"},{"start":4445.441,"end":4472.958,"text":"我想這些都是委員聳聽的謊言我想執政黨的委員今天也在這裡我請大家不要忘了我們在6月3號財委會首次安排的審查財化法修正的時候總共有17個縣市表示有缺錢這其中還包含賴總統的故鄉台南市還有郭國文委員的故鄉所以我想今天既然大家都覺得財化法的修正"},{"start":4473.698,"end":4500.169,"text":"是已經迫不及待時間點已經到了所以請財政部趕快提出部的版本財政部其實也有想法的所以你與其在那邊批評何不務實一點提出財政部認為可行的修法內容為何要如何調整公式或是分配比例都可以提出來談大家來談"},{"start":4503.581,"end":4517.188,"text":"或是把以前林全院長的版本重新拿出來這也可以啊所以我想其實大家都知道現行財劃法的狀況有哪些也確實已經造成我們地方財運的不足或者地方建設發展的問題"},{"start":4518.729,"end":4540.986,"text":"所以財政部覺得無法如大家的版本一步到位那請財政部就拿出你們的想法要怎樣中央與地方、地方與地方之間盡量取得一個大家可以接受的修改點我想各個地方政府也知道中央施政需要足夠的財源但中央也必須認同我們地方確實還有財"},{"start":4543.047,"end":4544.047,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4570.544,"end":4592.773,"text":"謝謝林思銘、林委員接著請邱政軍、邱仁、然後許宇甄委員請準備好主席還有部長還有各位委員大家早安大家好那我想剛剛聽了很多位委員提到的都同樣一個問題啦就希望我們政院版的版本趕快出來那我當然我不知道我們今天部長到底能不能決定"},{"start":4593.813,"end":4614.695,"text":"我想如果不能決定請回去的時候要趕快來反映我想這個才是比較正面的啦我們大家都看到25年來我們民眾黨自己本身也提了26個委員的版本還有兩個黨團的版本其中也包括賴清德總統還有我們蕭美琴副總統的版本"},{"start":4615.276,"end":4638.763,"text":"多次強調地方自主財源偏低財政嚴重失衡影響地方施政並指他們也指出就是六都升格之後中央的業務減少地方業務增加直轄市縣市的差異越來越大身為為了兼顧區域的平衡發展落實地方財政的自主所以他們必須也提到說必須要修正這個財政劃分法"},{"start":4641.977,"end":4669.39,"text":"那現在我看到的是就是說我那天也跟院長講也請教過院長那目前的財劃法可以對地方有很大的幫助跟補助就拿苗栗縣來講長期的財政這個被管控那麼我們苗栗縣雖然是五級縣市當然中央也不是說沒有照顧可是呢就是我們的自籌款都會比較低沒有錯但是呢如果我們自己有錢"},{"start":4670.33,"end":4691.843,"text":"苗栗縣自己有錢第一財政不用被控管了第二也不需要你中央特別的待遇我想既然方向是這樣子我們希望這個政院版本趕快提出來不要說我們現在執政了就把之前講過的話通通忘掉尤其我們看到113年的統籌分配款"},{"start":4692.883,"end":4698.09,"text":"6都總共佔了65%,2477億元。其餘的16縣市及鄉鎮市只分到35%,大概1333億。以人口的平均分配統籌款,最高的達到46000元,最低的只有"},{"start":4715.956,"end":4731.343,"text":"只有9400元分別的落差這麼大我想部長應該要慎重的來考慮啦因為這個公平性確實不對大家都有繳稅不應該他因為他住的地方而享受的待遇會有不同那有19個縣市呢"},{"start":4733.086,"end":4757.923,"text":"在111年,自籌款低於五成,七個縣市低於兩成顯示地方的財政自主能力逐漸的降低這絕對不是正常的現象我想我們還是誠懇的希望我們這個政院版的趕快出來你出來我們大家還可以協調我不敢講說我們每一個委員提的這個提案都是對的"},{"start":4758.763,"end":4783.361,"text":"但是我也相信每一個委員他都願意坐下來談現在就看我們執政當局願不願意坐下來談願不願意提出版本我想不要搞到後面我們大家出了委員會到時候刪讀是不是又要提復議是不是又要再提釋憲我想這都不是我們樂於見到的我希望在這個還沒出去之前大家趕快提出版本趕快來做一個正確的一條路一個選擇以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":4786.472,"end":4804.108,"text":"謝謝邱政軍、邱委員為苗栗大力的爭取接著請許宇甄、許委員謝謝主席還有各位委員我想剛剛聽了各位委員的發言我想大家其實一致的意見都是認為財化法應該要修正"},{"start":4804.628,"end":4827.108,"text":"因為其實已經超過25年沒有修正的這個法令其實一定是不合時宜那當然因為考量到地方財政面臨自由財源偏低支柱結構僵化跟財務負擔相對沉重的問題影響地方的這個施政的推動所以各地方的政府也紛紛的要求中央要充裕他的自治財源以解決地方財政結構的一個問題"},{"start":4829.37,"end":4845.159,"text":"我提出來的版本是針對農業縣因為現在針對國土計劃法施行後受限制的農業縣市能夠修法提高他的財政自主程度以因應地方改制跟國土規劃的需求所以我主張要擴大分配款的這個規模然後"},{"start":4849.841,"end":4874.088,"text":"將所得稅的分配數能夠增加然後分給因爲國土政法而受損的這些農業的縣市但是我想國民黨團也有提出版本就統籌分配稅款的增加比例來說縣市增加的最多的是宜蘭、新竹、基隆市、彰化縣、金馬跟嘉義縣市還有屏東縣都增加三倍以上"},{"start":4874.908,"end":4900.208,"text":"苗栗縣、澎湖縣跟南投縣都增加2.5倍以上雲林、花東也都增加2倍以上另外六都中新北市增加1.3倍最多台北市增加0.6倍台南跟高雄在六都的政府也都位於中間而且這個版本是對於藍綠其實都一樣並沒有分藍綠之別而是以地方之福而且六都的占比也從61.76降到49%"},{"start":4903.01,"end":4917.427,"text":"所以可以說是最能平衡城鄉差距那這個版本也是邀集了16個縣市的縣市長還有財長所提出來的一個相對的版本所以如果能夠通過這個修正版本的話本席也願意支持"},{"start":4917.867,"end":4943.638,"text":"那我想剛剛大家共同的意見就是說如果行政院認為這個財化法的這個目前各個委員提出的版本這個行政院是不是能夠提出相對應的版本來說明行政院的立場財政部的立場讓我們大家能夠在這個財化法的部分在委員的共識之下認為該修但要怎麼修如果財政部不能這個看到目前大家各個委員還有這個黨團"},{"start":4945.379,"end":4959.613,"text":"提出的版本如果認為還不能達到財政部的要求那是不是財政部能夠盡快的提出相對應的版本否則的話我覺得以國民黨團目前能提出的版本我是覺得最能夠照顧也能夠最能平衡城鄉的差距謝謝"},{"start":4962.426,"end":4976.694,"text":"謝謝許宇甄、許委員對所有鄉鎮市有一些需要支援的鄉鎮市的這個大力爭取那接著請賴會員、賴委員"},{"start":4984.743,"end":5005.274,"text":"謝謝主席。那針對的本席針對的今天的財劃法那有幾個想法啦因為先前的這個審查跟公聽會上面其實財政部所提出來的數據來看的話那如果依照現在國民黨籍還是民眾黨提出了幾個財劃法的草案施行的一個辦法"},{"start":5006.434,"end":5025.362,"text":"中央每年只要釋放出5000多億來給地方政府可是這樣的一個做法不只會壓縮到中央的全國性的一個基礎建設還有國防建設這些政策上的一個支出在一些跨縣市的一個建設上他很難做出一個統一的規劃跟財源的一個籌措"},{"start":5028.503,"end":5043.196,"text":"本席認為以台南市分配的狀況來看以現行的分配辦法裡頭當然統籌分配款的一個款項分配的一個前奏裡頭我們都很清楚營利事業佔50%人口數是20%土地面積是20%財政只佔了10%"},{"start":5051.444,"end":5067.796,"text":"當營利事業人口聚集在部分的縣市,像我們台南這樣的一個財政依賴度高的一個縣市,更容易因為發展遲緩,人口的一個外流,還有營利事業的營業額的下降,導致這樣的一個分"},{"start":5068.536,"end":5092.105,"text":"分配的比例其實是會越來越惡性的循環所以本席也主張就是說貧窮的縣市在這樣的惡性循環之下其實他難有歡聲的機會只會造成互有的區域更互有貧窮的區域更貧窮的現況那區域發展不均也會更加的嚴重所以我"},{"start":5092.665,"end":5118.757,"text":"主張就是說近年統籌分配款項跟相關的一個補助稍有不足於補貼地方的需求的時候那修法要中央每年大撒幣但這個並沒有辦法解決就是縣市之間的分配不均的辦法所以我主張是應該經過行政院修正的中央統籌分配稅款的分配辦法的分配比例"},{"start":5119.737,"end":5142.234,"text":"來加重弱勢區域的分配比例上的一個前則來達到真正的區域的一個平衡這是我的一個建議 謝謝好 謝謝賴會員、賴委員為地方的大力爭取接著請鄭正前政委員然後黃委員、黃秋芳再來是郭昭瑋"},{"start":5147.622,"end":5170.87,"text":"謝謝主席我想說今天我們在針對財劃法的部分那確實財劃法這邊有一個垂直的部分跟水平分配的部分那本院在這邊有特別要幫新竹市這邊提出一個說明因為我們看全台22個地方政府就是112年的創稅、統籌分配稅款、一般性補助之後可以發現"},{"start":5171.79,"end":5195.307,"text":"全台創稅新竹市僅次於臺北市跟新北市是第三高的一個地方政府那甚至於比高雄市還要高了5億那算上人口之後新竹市的人均創稅全台最高可是得到的統籌分配稅款和一般性的補助款就遠低於其他的縣市只拿到高雄市的六分之一台南市的四分之一不到那配回率其實是全台最低的"},{"start":5196.047,"end":5217.149,"text":"那這樣的部分的時候呢我們就提出了一個其實我有提一個修正動業的版本可是就是說到時候因為今天不一定會進竹條嘛所以我在這邊也就特別再說明一下那所得稅在新竹市那徵收的時候那從業人員在新竹市生活其實非常的多那新竹市卻沒有一個很像樣的一個大眾交通工具所以"},{"start":5217.709,"end":5238.32,"text":"這表示說我們地方政府在整個地方的一個財政的支應當中的時候其實是有一些不足的地方那我這邊簡單講一個部分比方說在我們整個的目前在做的大新竹輕軌計畫當中的時候光新竹是一條紅線的部分就要支應將近50%的經費220億其實是負擔不起的一個情況"},{"start":5242.022,"end":5263.882,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":5264.543,"end":5276.58,"text":"就是修正動業的部分我們之後也許能夠再做進一步的一個討論所以這邊就先針對這個統籌分配稅款的大體的部分先做一個簡單的一個補充以上謝謝"},{"start":5282.402,"end":5293.913,"text":"謝謝珍正前政委員也是為新竹大力的爭取接著請黃修芳、黃委員發言謝謝主席那我今天要特地為我們彰化縣來發聲"},{"start":5296.936,"end":5312.155,"text":"章化縣是全國六都以外人口最多的縣市,有123萬人,可是我們每一年在統籌分配稅款是分配每一年都是倒數,不是倒數第一就是倒數第二"},{"start":5314.117,"end":5330.692,"text":"張化縣是這個中小企業非常多的一個地方所以有很多的工廠是設立在張化那公司可能就設立在其他的縣市甚至就是台北市或新北市那這個是這個長期的一個問題然後那我想希望就是說"},{"start":5331.432,"end":5331.713,"text":"財政部"},{"start":5347.412,"end":5376.733,"text":"的數據就是今年的稅收分配讓六都佔據了65%以上的比例其他的35%的分配給其他的縣市我覺得這樣也非常的不公平現行的財政收支劃分法已經實施20年的時間有必要重新來審視來做一個調整現在中央跟地方的稅收的分配比例"},{"start":5377.273,"end":5377.733,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5404.454,"end":5430.515,"text":"這個收支劃分法的時候應該要同時保障一般性的補助款不能減少以實現地方財政的健全還有自治能力的這個提升那我要強調的就是說要更公平的這個稅款分配更公平的稅款分配那強調人口多的彰化縣在這個財政收支這個當中應該要受到"},{"start":5431.215,"end":5433.497,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":5459.719,"end":5475.328,"text":"用更公平、更公正的方式能夠分配到其他的縣市而不是說全部的稅收分配6都就佔了6乘5那其他的縣市只有佔3乘5我覺得這樣真的是非常的不公平謝謝"},{"start":5476.769,"end":5505.155,"text":"好 謝謝黃秀芳、黃委員大力為彰化的爭取我也覺得很有道理部長彰化是最窮的苦哈哈 多幫忙一下因為我也彰化人我彰化參委所以當然 你也彰化主席也是彰化的大家這是將心比心真的彰化很多地方需要經費沒有做我們一起支持"},{"start":5506.235,"end":5521.952,"text":"那是不是這裡有一個臨時提案我們大家先聽一下來請宣讀宣讀臨時提案"},{"start":5525.123,"end":5550.545,"text":"有鑒於財政收支劃分法繼今已於25年會修正其間歷經五都改制直轄市財源分配機制卻未同時配到調整地方政府應統籌分配款分配不足無法補足地方政府財政缺口及各縣市城鄉差距然中央政府聯名稅收超徵財政部不應再漠視地方政府的需求。原此請財政部以下問及"},{"start":5551.306,"end":5562.811,"text":"第2會期開議前提出財政收支劃分法修正草案與立法院審議。提案人賴世寶、羅明才、王鴻輝、徐以貞、邱振軍、黃珊珊、林思銘、鄭振銓、薛南部我們這個是盡情案,盡情案這個很耐的啦"},{"start":5575.373,"end":5589.629,"text":"好 謝謝召委我想剛剛聆聽那個好幾位委員來參與本會的討論我覺得真的當立委都很辛苦不只要當立委有時候還要當地方的財政局的局長大家都來爭取預算"},{"start":5591.631,"end":5610.717,"text":"其實這裡頭從剛剛的討論內容當中就看到很多不同的指標的期待每個縣市都有本位的思考這也就是同樣反映出來過往長期來不論是民進黨執政或國民黨執政連續推出5次的財法法的修法沒有過的一個關鍵的原因"},{"start":5611.977,"end":5636.667,"text":"我覺得財法法的本質就是複雜我覺得我們在這邊討論當中不是馬上生出一個財法法就可以解決問題制度本來就是要可長可久既然這個複雜的制度更需要時間成本更需要耐心溝通所以我為什麼贊成賴氏堡委員說再開公聽會的原因是這樣我覺得這部法案老實講該修但急不得"},{"start":5639.888,"end":5660.698,"text":"該修但及不得所以我是說過往為什麼其他的人馬英九笨嗎?陳說平不聰明嗎?對不對?為什麼歷經了16年5次的版本都沒有通過那各位我們在座各位要扮演財政局長的我們的大家變成天眾英明可以馬上毫無意義的就馬上可以通過"},{"start":5661.658,"end":5687.335,"text":"你不覺得這有所奇怪之處嗎?而來大家一直在強調所謂的比例問題關鍵不是不只比例的問題關鍵是絕對而到底夠不夠用的問題啊你依照目前的這個規範當中我們各家審視一下自己的版本有一些離島縣市超過他原來的公共預算百分之百變兩倍之多不是有錢就好他怎麼執行啊我想請問一下各位啊"},{"start":5687.975,"end":5701.292,"text":"我想請問一下各位啊而且說實在的我也知道國民黨很辛苦國民黨現在縣市首長很多啊它內部要形成版本的時候就意見一大堆了不然怎麼會跑出一個首都條款3%才會安撫到蔣萬安"},{"start":5704.696,"end":5727.264,"text":"我抱一下內幕就是這樣子嘛這是不是那麼好巧的嘛你從一個橫向的觀點當中巧好了王委員我不是跟你們吐槽啦我是側面聽到可靠的消息指出啦你們巧好了怎麼巧你拿中央的一大筆比例的錢來巧五千七八七十七億五千七百七十七億讓大家都增加錢大家都馬上拍手叫哪一個縣市會來支分反對有錢當然是好啊"},{"start":5732.566,"end":5757.008,"text":"但是分不夠的當然就有反對也不是沒有聲音啊你沒有看到台南市長出來跳嗎?你沒有看到陳其邁出來說嗎?七次的反對的聲音嗎?這原因就在這邊不是大家說要修但是沒有那麼容易修也不要急著修因為制度你就是要可長可久而且老實說這部法案齁它複雜之處齁它跟真的跟其他的法案有連動之處"},{"start":5758.769,"end":5779.949,"text":"我本席在強調我絕對不是拖延他真的跟其他的法案有聯動之處我們真的要思考其實我們剛剛在討論過的過程當中就有財權跟事權的問題就牽扯到財政劃分跟地方制度的關聯這兩個是息息相關的不要說地方說法通則至少跟地方制度法息息相關甚至我必須講這還不是單純一個那個"},{"start":5783.972,"end":5811.307,"text":"整個預算分配的問題而已他牽扯到體制的問題耶我現在說的在的大家對這個財政收支劃分法部分呢怎麼配置的後面一個思考當中呢恐怕還有牽扯到整個體制的一個問題所以我是覺得真的是要從長計議啦所以我講實在話我剛剛看到賴斯堡委員提案齁我跟賴斯堡委員其實都能夠良性的溝通啦齁但是壓日期齁我個人就非常保留我建議呢是從長計議啦不要急於死啦"},{"start":5813.328,"end":5815.936,"text":"但是改修還有修啦 但是不要壓日期啦 以上"},{"start":5817.39,"end":5842.858,"text":"那個請黃珊珊委員先請黃珊珊然後賴司法委員李委員請黃珊珊、黃委員好謝謝召喚我想大家都表示過意見那共識應該很清楚了都是希望財政部有版本那當然財政部我們應該是我二月上任之後就請部長然後院長也同意你們去徵詢所以已經徵詢了到現在也已經三個月如果到下個會期"},{"start":5845.239,"end":5865.513,"text":"開議大概也在兩個月、三個月所以其實有整整半年的時間這個時間財政部的意見應該都收集的差不多而且縣市的立場其實蠻清楚那只是水平分配的指標跟相關增加預算對中央政府的影響這必須總要財政部來說明吧因為現在全部都在外面發梗圖"},{"start":5868.434,"end":5887.619,"text":"說會刪除租金補貼、會刪除育兒津貼甚至今天還創出來說會影響到什麼TPAS這個不必要的東西我希望執政黨尤其是財政部自己要出來說清楚你們認為會影響的如果財政部我要知道的是你們對於這些的態度"},{"start":5888.539,"end":5907.055,"text":"原來中央政府的態度是只要中央政府的錢少了第一時間就會砍社福預算碼第一時間就會砍居住正義的政策碼第一時間就會砍少子化的政策碼如果是的話也請你財政部說清楚我們希望不要製造這個對立如果"},{"start":5908.84,"end":5929.113,"text":"中央說我錢不夠我希望你們砍的是速發部的裝潢預算我希望你們砍的是他們要去再找一塊新的地方蓋大樓的預算而不是先刪租金補貼的預算不是先刪育兒津貼的預算更不是刪所謂綠能運輸TPAS的預算我想這個"},{"start":5930.194,"end":5935.803,"text":"本委員會的態度一定要很明確這個不是一個簡單的事情製造對立並不會解決問題所以這個部分要請"},{"start":5940.956,"end":5963.717,"text":"我們的政府、主計處、財政部你們要對外說什麼是你們的priority如果中央政府的priority告訴我們說你們第一時間要刪社福預算也請你站出來堂堂正正的說不要讓這些側衣粉鑽在外面躲在外面幫你說我覺得這件事情是你們必須要跟立法院做個釐清今天這麼多委員坐在這裡"},{"start":5964.978,"end":5989.239,"text":"我們哪一個人要刪社福預算了?我們哪一個人要去拿掉人民的租金補貼了?所以這些謠言定到此為止我們也希望不要再看到任何政府的官員嘴巴裡面說出來說我們會影響什麼東西如果你會影響你就大聲的說你是誰這是你的意見而不是用散播謠言的方式第二個"},{"start":5990.18,"end":6009.837,"text":"如果你要這樣說就請財政部跟主席處講清楚你中央到底需要多少錢你釋出多少錢才可以不影響你你講出來五百億、一千億、兩千億、三千億、五千億會影響你多少說出來把這些對照表跟影響度講清楚這第一點第二點"},{"start":6010.956,"end":6036.797,"text":"如果我們的各種中央釋出的金額的版本之下你們是不是會優先裁撤社會福利是還是不是還是會檢討目前現行的預算腐爛的項目比如說我們這次大家最討厭的就是買雞蛋可以買成這樣這些不檢討先去恐嚇人民先去說會刪社福福利這是一個很不負責任的態度第三點"},{"start":6038.158,"end":6049.84,"text":"民眾黨很修財法法。然後我想問一下執政長眼中這是育兒津貼、租金補貼、長照預算是不是你們認為不必要的支出?是,就大聲的說出來。"},{"start":6051.072,"end":6071.726,"text":"第四點,你的地方政府喊的財政缺口是2700億所以我們想問一下主計處你有沒有估算過正確的地方政府的財務缺口?算過沒有?他們喊的對還是不對?我們也希望聽到你們的意見最重要的是最近有很多媒體因為我上個星期請財政部"},{"start":6072.714,"end":6098.482,"text":"用各版本去試算然後財政部很天才他把民眾黨的版本直接增加了錢除以22然後就算出有些縣市還減少這個版本我們跟財政部抗議財政部有修正但是現在有些媒體還有一些側翼粉專拿到了原來用除以22的版本有一些縣市還減少這個版本請問是不是財政部流出去的"},{"start":6099.102,"end":6116.486,"text":"如果是就說清楚這個是試算第二個台灣民眾黨的版本水平分配都還沒有出來我們水平分配是交給分配委員會去另外去開會討論所以並沒有一個直接除以22的版本所以財政部這部分我希望部長你要解釋清楚"},{"start":6116.926,"end":6145.419,"text":"如果是請問這個版本是不是你們留出去給記者或者是相關的外部我再講一次台灣民眾黨沒有水平分配的公式這是將來交給分配委員會的部分所以如果有任何說台灣民眾黨的版本讓某些縣市會減少這是不可能的因為增加2000多億怎麼可能有縣市會減少我們希望財政部也把你們幫我們試算的那些錯誤的版本留出去也請你把它說清楚以上謝謝"},{"start":6147.539,"end":6157.367,"text":"好 謝謝黃珊珊、黃委員那賴士寶賴委員要不再補充一下齁這個財政部主席總書不提版本"},{"start":6158.911,"end":6176.964,"text":"某種程度就是配合政治操作這是很不好的財政部主席總書我們一直認為是很專業的單位不參加政治、政黨鬥爭結果你們現在擺爛然後呢在網路上側翼去攻擊說在野黨要搶錢了政府都沒有了這個補貼沒有、那個補貼沒有、印海的補貼沒有、租金的補貼沒有"},{"start":6185.902,"end":6205.347,"text":"啊你們不出來講話所以我們才這個請看我們的提案我們已經有夠卑微了這是建請跟他們的建請一樣我們就建請你們建請你們在差不多3個月的時間下個會期大概開議大概9月22號9月20號、9月22號3個月的時間你們搞不出來嗎那剛才主席主席怎麼在說什麼主席怎麼在說什麼聽不懂這個還要試權那就去改試權啊"},{"start":6215.925,"end":6221.026,"text":"就去修事權啊!你們行政院團隊去修啊!還不就等了?"},{"start":6222.515,"end":6251.426,"text":"給你三個月時間你搞不出一個版本而建起那最不濟最不濟那你就通通用你原來舊的版本嘛也可以啊就提出來啊就是一個字都不修也可以你拿出來嘛你現在不拿出來那我就高度質疑就是配合執政黨的操作在攻擊在野黨我講清楚喔你們這樣對我們下個會期預算好好看喔我就講清楚"},{"start":6253.881,"end":6269.196,"text":"國智輝說他不要政府的補助,組織長還來找我,說要補助台電1000億,沒門我跟你講,1000億,就不給!就不給!國出是你講不要啊!為什麼任人貼人屁股?"},{"start":6271.195,"end":6295.956,"text":"我們今天這個提案就是給你三個月時間你說啊這個國共委員講的很好聽他講說哎呀我們就要修啦慢慢修什麼事事實上股市你就是不要嘛 對不對你聽我講喔你聽我講喔但是你說要除了財權還要修市權那去修啊市權就去修啊三個月難道沒有辦法提出來嗎"},{"start":6297.418,"end":6300.661,"text":"各位委員當然就是很難得當上立委大家互相支持一下啦那接著請來自彰化的陳秀寶陳委員"},{"start":6319.891,"end":6342.608,"text":"謝謝主席現在針對這個財劃法的修正的部分現在討論的大部分會著重在提升各個稅務的地方分配比例提高來提升整體的統籌分配稅款的額度但在這邊我想要強調的還有一個重點就是各縣市的統籌分配公式的公平性那其實我在擔任彰化縣議員的時候"},{"start":6344.429,"end":6368.608,"text":"曾經跟黨團一起陪著縣長北上來拜會跟爭取哦。彰化縣的統籌分配款的長年就是一直都非常分配到非常的低。這也導致了我們彰化縣的建設量能不足,影響整個彰化縣的這個整體發展。像以今年的統籌分配款為例,彰化縣人的平均呢,呃,平均下來是1593元,是全台倒數第二低的。"},{"start":6369.068,"end":6389.793,"text":"那彰化現在人口數是六都以外最高的縣市喔那盈利單位呢也很多是在工廠設立在彰化的各個工業區但是在中央的統籌分配款的這個分配辦法中呢卻是有以各類的盈利事業營業額平均值來計算統籌分配稅款的分配金額全數也佔了50%"},{"start":6391.493,"end":6417.041,"text":"但是眾所周知的這個盈利事業公司很多大家都是很多大都設在北部那因此也大幅的影響整個彰化縣得到統籌分配款的這個額度工廠設立造成的影響環境負擔、交通優勢等等不方便都是我們彰化人在承受但是在這個統籌分配款上卻是其他縣市設立對我們彰化縣人是非常的不公平如果前面所述"},{"start":6418.502,"end":6431.798,"text":"張華縣的人口是六都以外人口最多的縣市但是統籌分配稅款一直都是淨、賠、沒做一值造成我們張華縣的建設量不足之外就是我們張華縣人口外流現象非常的嚴重我們留不住年輕人年輕人會往台中往北部來發展"},{"start":6434.742,"end":6456.614,"text":"所以我們彰化縣的出生率會更低這樣子的惡性循環我們彰化縣就是一直在老化所以希望說透過這次的財政收支劃分法的修正的討論我希望財政部這間要積極的收集各縣市的意見並經過審慎的評估後制定一個比較公平的統籌分配款公式並且修正中央統籌分配稅款分配辦法"},{"start":6457.895,"end":6480.854,"text":"不能獨立讓我們彰化縣的權益受損。我也希望說之後我們各地方政府在整個的統籌分配款如果有增加的情況之下也應該妥善了BMA預算積極的推動地方建設不能只為了一味強仰賴中央的補助必須自行推動地方建設讓青年願意回流扎根地方發展才能夠越來越好"},{"start":6481.414,"end":6506.042,"text":"所以我再強調一次我希望說經過這次大家對這個整個財劃法的修正討論財政部一定要積極的收集各縣市的意見然後我們來做一個比較公平的統籌分配款公式的修正才能讓大家都是以公平的一個這個起跑點讓我們的所有的國民不是獨厚北高不是獨厚"},{"start":6507.322,"end":6531.177,"text":"我們的這個六都我希望說我們彰化縣不要再一直被笑說我們永遠就是倒數第一謝謝好 謝謝陳秀寶、陳委員為彰化大力的爭取部長也覺得好像有道理部長一直在點頭一起多多關心一下接著就是請你要講一點"},{"start":6535.412,"end":6544.626,"text":"現在還是部長先回應一下啦因為剛剛黃委員大家都講很多沒有回應請莊部長回應一下"},{"start":6549.112,"end":6562.922,"text":"謝謝召委還有各位委員那剛剛各位委員的意見我都非常認真聽那也了解到各位對於財化法這樣的一個修正的一個重視然後也認為要修正因為25年沒有修正不過還是跟委員報告這個"},{"start":6566.045,"end":6580.204,"text":"對於這個財務法的修正這個事情其實財政部已經去請地方政府表達意見那各位知道在那天的公聽會裡面那個地方政府也都有表達他們對他們各有利的一個指標所以我們也都收集來但是所有的指標必須要具體"},{"start":6581.585,"end":6595.372,"text":"客觀以及具有普遍性那我們在地方政府當然為他們自己的民眾也好為他們自己的小區爭取福利這個我們的理解那所以呢我們就先請各地方政府對你所提出的指標你要做一個明確的解釋"},{"start":6596.773,"end":6611.526,"text":"所以這個時間我們要請他們再提出一個具體的解釋然後這個部分才能來做凝聚如果大家提出的指標是非常的模糊的話其實你的公式怎麼放進去就是一個很大問題所以在這個部分大家花了很多時間為什麼要花那麼多時間各位也許覺得說你為什麼要花那麼久的時間"},{"start":6615.169,"end":6641.63,"text":"可是過往5次的提案為什麼都沒有能夠成功也就是因為它的共識沒有能夠凝聚大家還是有很分歧的意見事實上所以到最後依然沒有能夠完成修法大家也知道財劃法非常重要跟整個國家的財政跟地方的財政以及地方的發展都非常的息息相關這是第一個在水平分配的部分那我們也提到就是說雖然過往25年沒有修正但是透過"},{"start":6642.631,"end":6663.521,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款還有一般性補助款跟計劃型的補助款在益住地方的財政上事實上是成長的46%跟105年來比成長46%第二個支出的部分部分不屬於中央原來屬於地方要分攤的一些支出也移轉到中央來支出我想這個主席總書非常清楚我們之前跟他們請教過"},{"start":6664.822,"end":6690.931,"text":"例如說勞健保的經費、勞農津貼的經費也都移到中央來支所以這個要整體來看這件事所以我們現在先就地方政府的一個指標分配的部分我們必須要去釐清而且凝聚一個共識否則如果只是為了要快要快但是最後依然沒有能夠達到最後的一個目的的話其實這中間的快還是依然是恍然的我想是為什麼25年沒有修五次也提出修法那"},{"start":6691.391,"end":6717.682,"text":"就是因為沒有共識的情況下他就沒有辦法完成這個修法的一個程序所以我們目前就是要把這些意見都要凝聚大家也許覺得說你們為什麼要這麼久或是藉故推託其實真的沒有我們的同仁真的非常辛苦包含包含去試算各委員黨團提出的版本我們也去試算分配的結果是什麼樣我們都是根據各位所提出來的那剛剛黃委員所提到就是說你的指標因為你們是提的是這個"},{"start":6719.022,"end":6733.859,"text":"最有力指標,就是說各縣體有力指標以及透過未來的委員會來審議但是未來的委員會審議目前沒有這樣的情形所以根據黃委員當時在財委會的要求說你財政部你就去試算嘛你就根據各版本去試算水平"},{"start":6733.899,"end":6755.047,"text":"水平分配的情形所以我們是根據委員的要求去做試算那試算的結果我們當然也要給財委會所有的委員都要知道所以並不是財政部故意去試算一個什麼樣的一個不合理的辦法我們是根據各版本提出來的水平分配裡面的東西去計算的沒有針對各版本有不同的一些呃不同的一些成見或怎麼樣"},{"start":6756.704,"end":6772.006,"text":"因為我們為什麼會去22?因為最有利指標各地方政府都會對他的最有利指標提出來。22台北市跟連江縣你跟我除以22你覺得合理嗎?我是只是就這樣試算。這個錯了就是錯了請同仁把它更正就好了不用再硬拗。"},{"start":6773.608,"end":6798.19,"text":"我想這個部分我先這樣說明那我想最主要是這樣那另外剛剛也提到就是說隨時分配的部分可能就會跟就會跟事權的劃分會有關係或跟事權劃分比如說我們吳立豪委員所提到的直轄市裡面的原住民區這個為什麼會這樣並不是當時有第一個他是跟直轄當時在地質法修正的時候就是做這樣的安排那他又牽扯到"},{"start":6798.931,"end":6824.985,"text":"直轄式的分配不是只是單一說漏掉它這個所謂的在那個地質法裡面漏掉原住民區有所謂的稅收跟公共財務的這個部分這個都會跟聯動到地質法修正所以我這邊修那邊沒有修是沒有用的所以還有也跟公共債務法也會有關係所以當時是有這樣的一些配置跟設計那這樣的設計跟配置是不是以現在來看是不是合理那必須要"},{"start":6825.365,"end":6848.951,"text":"通盤來做這樣的一個考慮光是這個原住民區這個部分就涉及到另外兩個法另外兩個法那你在垂直分配上同樣的因為現在支出已經相關的移轉掉那你未來要怎麼樣的去做調整這都涉及到事權我想這個就是跟各位委員報告也就是說為什麼需要花時間去再做這樣處理並不是故意的推脫我想這個是讓各位委員了解這樣子"},{"start":6853.956,"end":6880.93,"text":"那是不是我們是不是建議說也謝謝委員的體諒那是不是就原始就是我們這個提案提案一的部分請財政部 建請財政部緊述、研議財政收支劃分法修正草案就是把那個時間 那個時間那個 佐西他都講了啊 他都講了"},{"start":6882.475,"end":6909.409,"text":"我也是在講這個內容啊對啊我就是建議就是說建請財政部緊述、研議財政收支劃分法修正草案於立法院審議這樣子這樣子的話我給你大家下台階緊述並期望於給你們期望嘛期望在9月22號之前就是夏威夷開議之前提出來"},{"start":6917.84,"end":6931.21,"text":"他那個現在財政部已經表示立場他意思是說呢嚴議禁訴提出財法法那個基本上剛剛跟我們基本立場沒有相左了嘛那你何必只要押一個日期呢"},{"start":6933.191,"end":6942.233,"text":"不要日期就等於是在拖延啊。不要日期就是拖延啊。我是不相信。我擺明說我就不相信啊。我們也有在論述過程當中提出這套制度的複雜性啊。從過往的經驗跟制度的本身跟其他制度的東西我們都有提出來喔。我不是跟你故意在拖延喔。"},{"start":6956.576,"end":6965.224,"text":"我們完全沒有講時間,我們剛剛就講說我們很善意啊,我們也沒有說壓到什麼7月16號,所以我要講,我們可以啊,因為如果說,如果說我們都沒有日期的話,那說實在,那個就是這個技術上拖延"},{"start":6974.493,"end":7001.179,"text":"這個大家也都是明眼人不用講這些有的沒的那所以呢這樣我不曉得那個寶哥我們賴委員可不可以接受就是我們建請財政部以下會期開議前為目標提出這樣子已經是這樣已經是非常已經是非常鬆了如果我們我老師說啦如果我們提出說請你禁訴這是什麼屁提案對不對這個提案是怎樣呢"},{"start":7002.339,"end":7024.626,"text":"那不是跟大家講每個我要修但是呢什麼時候不知道然後什麼時候修我也不知道那我們我們是在欺騙那個老百姓嗎我不曉得我們各個區域立委回去怎麼去給人家交代所以等一下我先講就是說我們先修正這個這個文字的部分對我們是不是可以把它變成以以下會期開議前為目標對不對因為我們還是要給你一點時間壓力嘛是吧"},{"start":7028.917,"end":7047.363,"text":"連目標你都不要那你請問你要什麼時候?何年何月啊?不要急不要急聽我講一下嘛因為我們今天是可以開到12點晚上可是如果一直講講的話我以為OK可是尊重所有委員就是不然大家就是"},{"start":7048.103,"end":7048.844,"text":"各位,我們這一屆我們剛剛第一個會期,他如果不提出來你會放他過嗎?"},{"start":7065.335,"end":7092.897,"text":"我們還有三點五年...我們還有七個會期各位七點多個會期你還擔心嗎?你怎麼會擔心呢?你怎麼會擔心什麼完全不對哪有完全不對我跟人講話嘛 對不對就是說我們剛剛這一屆才第一會期而已你要再急什麼呢?所以說我意思說這一部法案的複雜度就歷經了兩任總統不論是馬英九或者是陳水扁這都是歷史事實嘛"},{"start":7093.397,"end":7113.675,"text":"資深的那個代事保委員他很清楚嘛資深的林德福委員他很清楚資深的羅明才委員都很清楚嘛有過嗎?沒有過嘛就是說他的複雜度不是在數字的計算而已還有不同指標區域的平衡還有諸多背後的不一樣的考量在你們在研擬的過程當中老實說研擬的過程當中你叫凱中央之凱"},{"start":7116.758,"end":7137.134,"text":"然後分配給地方所形成的版本這當然是容易啊可是問題不能只有這樣的考量而已啊因此這制度的複雜性需要時間你幹嘛一定要壓一個時間這個期呢你讓它一個時間我們現在才第1會期我不曉得大家在急什麼難道我們立委任期只有一年嗎好我要特別講一下明年會被罷免嗎不會啊我相信不會被罷免我們剛才幾位那個彰化的委員他們都來特別談到他們的財政的需求那其實我剛才講"},{"start":7145.22,"end":7163.726,"text":"我們即便是在下個會期,我們即便是最好的狀況啊,我們在下個會期如果有個確定的版本,明年可以編預算嗎?縣市政府還用不到啊,因為他來不及編預算嘛,是不是?所以呢,那我們其實最樂觀的狀況,他也要到後年才能夠編預算。"},{"start":7167.987,"end":7194.725,"text":"所以對於這些縣市政府這個大汗之忘於泥啊我們回去要不要去跟彰化很希望趕快能夠有多一點自有財源的彰化縣各縣市政府說明年你變不到啦也吃不到後年都可能吃不到所以為什麼這個不是我們的我們的任期的問題我們是希望讓希望這個能夠多一些自有財源的他明年都吃不到了你還要讓他等到什麼時候再拖吧"},{"start":7196.447,"end":7212.418,"text":"這就是拖壓,對不對?我們不要拖延所以我們以這個為目標其實是給你們一點壓力而且你說怎麼修?他們行政院提出版本來,我們就你提出什麼版本,我們就來討論啊你現在連行政院都沒有版本,怎麼討論?是不是?"},{"start":7221.236,"end":7223.278,"text":"前瞻預算的時候我們是在黑黨我們提了150幾個案子"},{"start":7236.957,"end":7256.973,"text":"那你們為了要趕快通過老柯做了一件事情一百五十幾個案子一次表決通通幫你改成建請所以只要看到建請不管內容什麼都通過因為建請就是最文章啦建請就是根本就是建議請你做建請他改成這樣一百五十幾個案子通過你就老柯"},{"start":7257.854,"end":7280.085,"text":"所以你不要那麼的、那麼的嚴謹到說我這一每個字我已經給你過太多的下台階了說以那個為目標建起你那個為目標建起你有夠客氣的客氣沒有要求什麼都沒有建起你得拜託你啊你做不到做不到做不到啊都這樣你查一查錢在你手上就這樣他就寫一個法案"},{"start":7283.446,"end":7305.358,"text":"從第7案到第7案,一百五十幾個案子,統統改成建起,一次通過,就通過啦!就通過啦!根本因為建起那個約束率很小啦!講坦白話,這個叫大恐怕彈啦!連這個你們都不放!賴委員,賴委員,您是中量級的委員啦齁,我對你有一定的尊重,那基本上在討論的對話過程當中齁,你知道為什麼五次的這個修法沒有過,地方政府還可以運作嗎?財法法啊!"},{"start":7306.579,"end":7327.305,"text":"財政收支劃分法沒有修啊。重點是統籌分配款嘛。重點是一般補助款。重點是計劃補助款嘛。所以讓他們得以運作嘛。條件延續他就一直在講這個原因是在這邊啊。所以為什麼還是可以運作?原因在這邊嘛。所以不要急的原因我說實在的地方政府不是不能運作還是可以運作。對啦。"},{"start":7327.905,"end":7344.799,"text":"問題是還是可以運作啊我說你這樣法的制度設計真的要考慮久長久遠你不要弄到後來後遺症的問題中央集權的部分任何一個執政黨在執政都會面臨這個體制的問題"},{"start":7348.221,"end":7373.996,"text":"這是財政的問題啦!沒有拖延啦!沒有拖延!財政部跟主席總統不提出來!慎重!慎重非拖延!不提出來!不提出來就是配合就是配合民進黨在攻擊國民黨!哪有攻擊!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪有!哪"},{"start":7378.697,"end":7379.057,"text":"黃衛回來啦!"},{"start":7393.506,"end":7413.73,"text":"這個我們才會說的不表決的啦今天已經建請了等於拜託你做一點約束力都沒有居然居然案子這樣子還挑戰解釋我就講了啊所有以後民進黨的提案統統不通過你這裡提案統統不通過挺簡單要這樣搞就這樣子統統反對統統反對"},{"start":7417.811,"end":7437.705,"text":"我不要,沒有,就其他講,期望於下個會期開請啊!建請!建請!進訴啦!進訴等於都沒有了啦!這個案子不過,今天就休會了,今天不要開了啦!不是,部長!你不提出來!你們不提出來!"},{"start":7439.454,"end":7453.417,"text":"我就到處接人書你們配合民進黨做攻擊在野黨的動作什麼取消津貼、取消長招就是這樣子以後網路到處都是就是你們配合你們不提案才能夠這樣罵你們提案就不會這樣罵"},{"start":7470.342,"end":7492.962,"text":"夏蕙琦財政部綠手砍啊!這做不到!你個賤情!還來這裡拜託你,還來這裡拜託你!什麼東西啊!賤情而已欸!賤情是一篇藝術的沒有!老看忘了!全部改成賤情157案!一時痛苦!為什麼你把人家亂..."},{"start":7497.579,"end":7506.364,"text":"財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查"},{"start":7519.76,"end":7522.721,"text":"還有靈體啊還有嗎?還有靈體?"},{"start":7522.721,"end":7522.841,"text":"還有靈體?"},{"start":7522.841,"end":7523.382,"text":"還有靈體?"},{"start":7523.382,"end":7523.802,"text":"還有靈體?"},{"start":7523.802,"end":7523.942,"text":"還有靈體?"},{"start":7523.942,"end":7523.962,"text":"還有靈體?"},{"start":7562.862,"end":7566.624,"text":"市長,你怎麼不休息?我們都跑掉了"},{"start":7580.09,"end":7582.032,"text":"財政收支劃分法 財政收支劃分法"},{"start":7601.488,"end":7606.693,"text":"我這個也要進一步我的也要進一步啦加個進一步大家都比照寫我的也要比較寫進一步"},{"start":7635.111,"end":7665.111,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7667.753,"end":7689.907,"text":"他們都會很尊重委員的提案不是啦真的啦,那委員你壓日期他們就會盡可能這樣會逼,你一直逼其實沒有一樣嘛,你壓日期他們就會盡量配合嘛你讓他們做不到了,你何必壓日期呢?我們每個會期都會遇得到啊"},{"start":7693.925,"end":7703.475,"text":"請問你那時候皇帝合一的時候也說很複雜那已經等於是立下去過了啦那已經等於是立下去過了"},{"start":7717.649,"end":7727.172,"text":"同樣的道理我們來看到那個黃帝和一的時候2.0部長在這裡講100個理由不給過就不給過賴清德為了選舉馬上下令就過了啊很清楚就是上面的一樣的感官隸屬啦這個複雜啊要不要做而已啦不做就很複雜啦那個就地方擺不平嘛你這樣說"},{"start":7748.328,"end":7776.284,"text":"這個我先講清楚喔你這個案子掛不掛沒關係兩位一樣我就把話講清楚下個會期之前沒有提出來特別委員我砍一半攜帶指路我決定提出來過不過這個時候我就砍你們特別委員用預算這樣假辭啊不要用這樣子的方式啊你要三預算要有道理不是用這種假辭的方式啊三預算不能把它工具化要有道理啊"},{"start":7780.869,"end":7801.282,"text":"對時促人民他以賭職啊改他提出來都不提出來賭職到底要算預算嗎可以這樣賭職這樣推都拉你要去改那個事權就去改事權啊去修車事權啊賭職是編查院在判斷的啦不是我們在判斷我們可以提案嘛我總之可以看預算啊"},{"start":7802.162,"end":7827.279,"text":"我都可以全砍了,客氣砍一半而已啊!對不對?代表賭職啊!兩外方的事情不做!要不然就自甘墮落當奴才!我們立委都可以提出來,為什麼你提不出來呢?立委都可以提出來,為什麼你提不出來?對不對?大家都不要急!這個委員愛錢、這個五立法提這麼多案子都要,案裡面不給過,這些提的都可以白提了啊!"},{"start":7828.717,"end":7847.836,"text":"往事前那位委員提這門沒好嗎?因為他們沒有版本就沒好嗎?那好啊!啊!所以說對阿!對阿!三個月時間有夠長阿!還要多久?三年阿不?阿不三年阿不?三十年阿不?聽話三個月還不夠長喔!小死人!"},{"start":7860.088,"end":7862.769,"text":"我講白一點啦,在財政委員會是要對的對的啦,你還怎麼日期幹什麼"},{"start":7895.092,"end":7898.514,"text":"國稅怎麼可以落掉呢?抱歉告訴你"},{"start":7914.65,"end":7928.538,"text":"你修你的版本?再修版本這支鑼碎怎麼可以把它蠟掉?聯絡一下早委啊,所以放我們這邊要幹嘛?誰可以聯絡早委啊?"},{"start":7936.027,"end":7937.007,"text":"不會,禮拜五要表決"},{"start":7959.327,"end":7968.897,"text":"趕快趕快趕快找一下招委啊要散會也可以散會啊"},{"start":7983.228,"end":7987.05,"text":"財委會也找一下,請財委會幫他去找一下"},{"start":8003.267,"end":8006.568,"text":"請看一下看他有沒有抽菸這是哪一招?好啦"},{"start":8031.417,"end":8032.679,"text":"沒有啦,怎麼這樣都說好了啦!"},{"start":8050.938,"end":8062.12,"text":"昨天不夠拍,明天投票都要拍?對啦,我怕誰?希望得罪人數一萬,你怕一萬千嗎?一定是韓人答案"},{"start":8072.995,"end":8101.237,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8105.388,"end":8120.991,"text":"19案：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》17案�"},{"start":8127.986,"end":8133.051,"text":"那個動是重點,重點是因為大家在炒那個整個餡嘛"},{"start":8150.807,"end":8153.348,"text":"財政收支劃分法議員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":8177.667,"end":8182.289,"text":"現在這個部分這是計劃選統論裡面要嗎?但是他們也放在社會裡面嗎?"},{"start":8198.895,"end":8209.699,"text":"會在社府?會在社府,但是它是在計劃型裡面,這是2600億裡面的社府計劃裡面嗎?對,我們社府是正式別在長期社府支出,這裡面是計劃型支出,另外一個分類,所以會在社府裡面這衛部會在社府裡面,教育部的話會在教育局"},{"start":8229.876,"end":8229.896,"text":"議員委員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8264.476,"end":8265.477,"text":"國會加地方有10個。國會4個。1、2、3、4、4個。對。"},{"start":8279.48,"end":8306.305,"text":"國會幾個?"},{"start":8306.749,"end":8331.538,"text":"民眾黨團、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員許宇甄等23人、"},{"start":8334.631,"end":8339.812,"text":"財政責任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":8360.936,"end":8387.896,"text":"本院總統、委員羅明才等23人、委員洪孟楷等22人、委員許宇甄等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟楷等23人、委員洪孟�"},{"start":8388.797,"end":8404.889,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8406.219,"end":8406.419,"text":"主席"},{"start":8420.418,"end":8446.92,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8452.437,"end":8457.46,"text":"財政收支劃分法有何分別?財政收支劃分法有何分別?"},{"start":8475.401,"end":8476.981,"text":"會回來嗎?不知道啊!"},{"start":8503.629,"end":8504.85,"text":"全體委員會主席、委員會主席、委員會主席"},{"start":8529.803,"end":8537.889,"text":"我們都很尊重他這個人這麼沒有義氣你知道不是問題就是要允許共和國這個問題很舊也是有用嗎?"},{"start":8555.903,"end":8560.766,"text":"全體委員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第2會期財政收支劃分法"},{"start":8575.745,"end":8589.579,"text":"我覺得...那統統就是按303就夠了那剛有通...那還有一個會喔那我們是很閒嗎?對啊對啊我問了這個公記也沒去耶那個林國正就這麼負責"},{"start":8600.811,"end":8601.251,"text":"結果稍微直接去"},{"start":8619.438,"end":8638.353,"text":"不是,因為今天國民黨都走掉了啊!對!是的是的!你要有一些空間!是是是!那我這些別人的空間暫時不必了!一半車啊、一半車都不少啊!我一定要企圖有長時間!是是是!有沒有在講?是是是!"},{"start":8641.896,"end":8650.943,"text":"我現在真的編作很困難,第一個我如果要剪這麼久,那我把他剪掉不要擔心,當我拿他剪,看起來今天都剪了,我今天不幹剪透視的啊"},{"start":8662.631,"end":8664.092,"text":"這根本逼不出來嘛,沒辦法"},{"start":8692.571,"end":8700.116,"text":"林德福講完就說他要去供給林德福講完就說他要去供給"},{"start":8712.364,"end":8717.168,"text":"他就看到了他自己當立委的時候,草案法有沒有過?又沒過啊!"},{"start":8743.747,"end":8766.292,"text":"因為原則上一般每個縣市的運輸規模都差不多了,所以這也是差不多,但是你如果說我修的規模,除了我們被羅明才綁架的部分,如果有一些縣市的操作,或者說備署,你覺得說我給他沒有?"},{"start":8769.514,"end":8779.724,"text":"因爲爲什麽呢﹖算了算﹖就三倍他﹖他的運動規模就三倍了﹖這樣就不行了﹖我覺得這樣就離譜了﹖因爲其實每一個電視上的運動規模幾乎是一個規模﹖量差不多都定了﹖是"},{"start":8792.956,"end":8796.818,"text":"一大部分就是這樣?有啦有啦有啦有啦有啦有啦"},{"start":8808.793,"end":8810.555,"text":"先去拜訪別人的朋友。"},{"start":8824.548,"end":8830.272,"text":"因為你最終面前就是一個配合,然後財政支援,你應該要怎麼去做,是一個重要的預算對,我也是後來那種,但是還有一個部分我可以說"},{"start":8848.683,"end":8853.606,"text":"他原來以前他已經他修台灣環環的他從以前是男士人的縣市總理那現在你如果按下去對,那你如果沒有那個"},{"start":8865.273,"end":8885.311,"text":"財政收支劃分法：立法院第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政"},{"start":8886.732,"end":8910.776,"text":"27、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、13、14、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、36、37、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、47、48、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、"},{"start":8910.856,"end":8938.276,"text":"對、對、對那國民黨還要求說我們2300要維持就是對、對、對、對因為我那個我根本沒辦法沒辦法編這樣因為你看一看就知道了哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":8938.716,"end":8945.083,"text":"反正就是總要修正我們的版本總要修正。請希望你們修正我們的版本。因為我們必須聯動,我們必須看。"},{"start":8961.31,"end":8964.893,"text":"我們今天有個新聞我們給歡迎的財政委員會議有多少席啊"},{"start":8989.913,"end":8994.834,"text":"19案：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法：一、繼續審查財政收支"},{"start":9016.931,"end":9041.731,"text":"此外,民眾黨團擬具《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案：一、繼續審查《財政收支劃分法》19案："},{"start":9057.972,"end":9061.073,"text":"那個部長輕鬆啦 輕鬆的心情來 我們繼續開會來 有幾個案請宣讀宣讀"},{"start":9071.533,"end":9086.641,"text":"委員、先讀委員林德輔、賴氏寶、羅明才、陳玉珍、鄭建前等5人提案財政收支劃分法第8條條文修正動議除第一項刪除第9款礦區稅第二項前段修正為"},{"start":9087.862,"end":9104.15,"text":"全項第一款之所得稅總收入25%第四款之營業稅總收入減除1.5%作為積增經費及依法提撥之統一發票給獎獎金後之全部收入及增列第三項第一項第一款之所得稅應以在直轄市縣市增企之收入5%給該直轄市縣市外"},{"start":9108.052,"end":9128.027,"text":"取於均同憲刑法條文宣讀案：﹚﹚那是修正動議 那不一定是第一案我們先把它補宣讀而已 那是修正動議來 資料給他們齁"},{"start":9138.134,"end":9162.991,"text":"宣讀臨時提案第二案財化法之修正需審慎因應區域均衡問題建請財政部等相關行政部門橫著中央及地方事權分工區域均衡等層面依據地方人民實際之重要民生需求如各族群人口對應自治團體下轄之行政能力需求高齡人口對應長照設施需求幼年人口對應幼保"},{"start":9164.557,"end":9179.683,"text":"用價保、服務需求等建立統籌分配稅款之設算公式而非僅依人口數為主要設算之依據而無法切合各地人口結構不同之實際民生需求提案人吳麗華、賴慧媛、李坤成、郭國文臨時提案第三案"},{"start":9181.311,"end":9205.257,"text":"條款法之修正需審慎因應長期以來地方政府自籌財源不足支出卻持續高度擴張之問題建請財政部與統籌分配稅款分配機制中同時納入地方政府財政努力減債績效等考評指標以利地方政府恪守財政機率避免財政收支及債務持續惡化真正促進台灣地方發展與自治提案人吳立華、大會議員李坤城、郭國文"},{"start":9206.357,"end":9228.553,"text":"民主提案第4案 建議現行中央統籌分配稅款分配辦法中以普通統籌分配稅款分配權重為例營利事業營業額佔50%、人口數佔20%、土地面積佔20%、財政狀況佔10%過度低估財政自籌率對地方政府接受分配之重要性導致財政依賴"},{"start":9230.041,"end":9247.623,"text":"財政依賴度高的弱勢縣市反而更容易因人口外流、盈利事業營業額下降而形成更依賴中央之應的惡性循環。是以請財政部於一週內針對如何透過統籌、調整統籌分配稅款分配錢種改善弱勢縣市"},{"start":9249.814,"end":9277.086,"text":"經費不足問題提出書面報告並至少於內容中提出兩種具體分配權重以作為修法參考提案人那位王世堅、吳立華、黃秀芳、陳秀寶宣傳畢好謝謝請大家翻到第一案第一案對於第一案臨時提案財政部這邊有沒有回應第一個提案第一個"},{"start":9278.854,"end":9289.868,"text":"第一個對,就是那個剛剛就說建議說研議禁訴啊,現在請財政部委員來,請那個陳玉琛,陳偉"},{"start":9300.826,"end":9312.273,"text":"財政部進訴大概是多久?你們的大概啦。我們也會給你們一點時間嘛,不是說會給你壓到死。但是,因為你看這麼多人都有提案,第二案、第三案都有提出說這些都很重要嘛。對吧?"},{"start":9313.133,"end":9327.967,"text":"所以才話也是各地方政府不管不分藍綠啦齁不分黨派都希望修正的啦那是不是有沒有什麼一個初步想要競訴你可以壓個時間嗎我們不壓你自己也要有一個期待啊不要說我們來要求你要主動行主動一點"},{"start":9328.607,"end":9350.023,"text":"對啦,好謝謝委員那我想也謝謝委員這樣的一個體諒但是我想財化法的修正其實是一個大事所以我們認為說壓時間的話我覺得是變成是為了這個時間而去倉促提出並不是一個好事所以我們還是建議說原始請財政部研議"},{"start":9351.094,"end":9371.469,"text":"緊述提出財政收支劃分法修正草案於立法院審議。我想是這樣,因為只要下了決議,在這邊做了決議,尤其是財政部,不管是財政部或組總或各機關,對於委員會所做的決議,我們一定是非常重視,也都會去努力達成。所以在這裡我想說,是不是我剛剛有一個建議,就請財政部"},{"start":9371.989,"end":9387.338,"text":"研議緊述提出。那壓一個時間確實是我覺得是一個可能不是那麼切實際的。可是像我們在部長我們每次在我們這個委員會質詢的時候通常問的話你們也是說緊述當然通常會說比如說兩個禮拜、三個禮拜、一個月。我們就有目標啦。"},{"start":9388.298,"end":9409.497,"text":"你設一個目標,你們下面也要做事我們做得到,我們一定像委員比如說要一個月或兩個月,我們都在目標裡面做分但是這個跟個委員報告我們也不要說給你太那個,你說大概多久的目標因為我們事實上你不提我們也不是不能審我們的版本嘛只是我們還是尊重你們剛剛好在這個休息之前因為那個等一下換他他第一次發言我簡單講一下啦"},{"start":9414.582,"end":9414.822,"text":"主席"},{"start":9436.301,"end":9459.062,"text":"蓮秀李委員其實這個財化法25年沒修其實每一屆都有提出相關的法規跟法案雖然部長可能其實你擔任部長的時間也一段時間了所以也跨屆當然一段時間所以我不知道這個版本到底什麼時候才有機會調整"},{"start":9461.084,"end":9485.597,"text":"所以我覺得既然每一屆的從過去好幾位縣市首長其實每一屆這個財話法的處理其實各縣市首長都有在喊都有在處理但是到目前為止你們到底整個財政部做了什麼今天這麼多民進黨的委員國民黨委員都提出應該要有調整每個人關注的點不一樣但是不壓一個期程"},{"start":9486.894,"end":9507.189,"text":"我們都不知道你們接下來還要再拖多久?要再另外一個25年嗎?所以時間你們要到需要多少時間每一個階段需要溝通哪些事情我們也要對地方對民眾有交代畢竟這幾年地方自治的事項負擔的東西也越來越多不曾少過"},{"start":9508.53,"end":9518.809,"text":"那我覺得國民黨的版本也好民眾黨的版本也好或者是你們會提出你們的版本所以我是不知道你們要不要提出你們的版本我覺得大家不是不能討論"},{"start":9520.458,"end":9542.097,"text":"不是不能討論不是說國民黨版本一定硬梆梆沒有調整的機會我覺得這就是大家要坐下來談嘛你們自愛難行的地方我們聽到我們地方自愛難行的地方民眾黨聽到他們覺得有困難的地方這就是一個大家坐下來討論的機會但是如果行政部門都不提出版本的話"},{"start":9542.577,"end":9558.679,"text":"我們都會認為這是行政部門的傲慢因為你們的困難點到底在哪裡那你們願意瞭解地方的聲音調整多少那這個就是大家很多這就是一個溝通協調談判的過程那你都不願意提出來的話在我們"},{"start":9559.551,"end":9583.234,"text":"立法院來講我們就覺得說那反正你們就處理你們的吧你們版本過我們後面再來處理復議就好了我覺得這不是政治性爭議的法案而是過去這麼多年來藍綠執政縣市的地方首長都覺得財化法應該要處理你們有困難我們知道地方有困難我想你們也都聽到主席長也從台南來"},{"start":9584.565,"end":9609.421,"text":"所以怎麼樣調整是大家雖然不滿意但是最起碼可以接受的方式這是協調嘛但是現在如果財政部連提都不提你後面是不是就要再來搞一次那沒關係立法院處理你們我們後面再來複議那李委妳要提多久的時間我要提時間我們當然提時間啊兩個月還是幾個月下個會期再來審也沒關係我們希望你們好好討論嘛"},{"start":9610.64,"end":9627.322,"text":"好,那你有沒有具體的?兩個月?三個月?你都可以提啊?下個會期一開始我們就來處理下個?好,那下個會期的話就是兩個月?那個,召委,我覺得需要前情摘要一下,因為這兩位委員是11點才加入討論的齁"},{"start":9628.724,"end":9634.369,"text":"9點到11點他們不太清楚我來說一下其實說實在話剛剛陳委員提到說以前有押日期如果單純的資料或者是報告其實行政部門押日期都沒有什麼問題同樣是回應那個"},{"start":9646.761,"end":9664.962,"text":"李燕秀委員的說法這部法案呢基本上呢當然你說他沒有政治老師他還有政治他的專業度、複雜度、爭議性都相對的高否則為什麼之前兩任總統五次提案都沒有過就原因在這邊嘛真的原因真的是在這邊我覺得要慎重"},{"start":9666.023,"end":9682.272,"text":"真的要慎重法案複雜的時候法案複雜的時候其實行政部門會很尊重我們委員會於壓日期壓日期基本上我就會怕出自濫造你說他現在有沒有做事情我就我再一次前行摘要一下他現在在跟"},{"start":9683.032,"end":9683.212,"text":"財政局長、委員長、委員長、委員長"},{"start":9705.041,"end":9724.579,"text":"財政的期待或自主程度依賴的不同其實真的有它複雜處的所在啦我倒是覺得啦 趙偉我真的是做一個建議剛剛李昆城委員提的那個不錯我真的現實面他真的有財權跟市權的問題我真的是很嚴肅地想這個問題上次您開的那個公聽會很有意義好幾個"},{"start":9727.882,"end":9746.987,"text":"學者專家都提到他有其他法制的聯動性問題其他法制聯動性問題我講白一點就值得再開一次那個公聽會我是真的建議李坤貞委員剛剛的建議其實可以形成一個提案這個可以再開反正我們暑假還很長對不對大家不出國我們就來開公聽會"},{"start":9749.248,"end":9773.866,"text":"對阿,沒有我一直說我沒有反對建請阿我沒有反對建請阿我就我再一次前行摘要一下就是說我沒有反對建請我只是我們是主張研議競訴再補充一下部分我剛剛的論述跟想法陳春瑋我快講完了我快講完了你不是主席阿我意見很好你可以聽啦"},{"start":9775.267,"end":9795.718,"text":"我意思是說我們現在只有這一屆的第1個會期而已而且國民黨的財政委員會的委員資深的比我們還資深人數也不少於我們羅明才委員就比我資深非常多的多以羅委員的重量級的部分我想財政部長會糊弄他嗎?"},{"start":9796.818,"end":9818.968,"text":"我簡單講台語一句話啦 稍度會中啦 稍度會中何必在那邊壓日起南 讓人家在那邊緊緊張張你訂一個法案 漏洞百出 後遺症不斷 不是有入我們財政委員會立法院的臉嗎對啊 謝謝我意思是這樣子而已嘛 何必呢好 謝謝郭召偉 那鄭鄭前政委員"},{"start":9820.088,"end":9845.155,"text":"謝謝主席我在想說就是我們做所有的提案我覺得有時間其實是很重要的因為沒有時間就等於是不但要去坐腰無期那剛剛其實就是民眾委員這邊提到說這是財權跟事權要一致其實我也很認同可是這邊就讓我不禁想到2022年的時候那個時候就是民進黨他們提出要修帝制法的時候也是因為新竹的關係"},{"start":9846.135,"end":9869.28,"text":"因為當時的市長林智堅他特別提到一個點就是說新竹市民值得更好的一個對待他提到的理由也是因為財化法分配不公所以他那時候就提出要修帝制法要讓大新竹合併那當時民眾黨來做這個公聽會的時候呢財政部那時候立場是說尊重立法院的一個決議那現在的時候那部長跟他提到說這個"},{"start":9870.8,"end":9891.535,"text":"財化法這邊要修的時候又牽涉到帝制法的問題帝制法當時2020要修的時候講到說最主要是財化法這邊的相關的問題所以你就發現就是內政部跟財政部他們是永遠推來推去都完全沒有共識那所以說我在想說民進黨他們已經執政第九年了我覺得應該也要有一個更大的一個誠意來要試圖解決這個問題所以我覺得說壓時間是必須要一個點這是第一個"},{"start":9896.238,"end":9919.434,"text":"第二個部分剛剛我聽到陳秀寶委員在幫彰化爭取的時候我發現我們財政部長一直點頭因為當時陳秀寶委員他提到說很多工廠都在彰化可是他們的財政劃分的收支的部分其實相對偏低所以他就覺得說有很多的交通的擁捨問題污染都在地方那這個部分我也"},{"start":9920.154,"end":9947.19,"text":"所以那時候陳佑寶提到說他想要提出那個修改公式的問題那我這邊的時候我也呼應一個狀態新竹市情況更糟糕新竹市的大眾運輸交通依賴率只有6.1%那現在就是賴清德總統他要推一個桃竹苗大細股計畫當中的時候把大新竹輕軌納入可是大新竹輕軌納入光紅線在新竹市這邊的時候新竹市就負擔不起地方自籌款就配合"},{"start":9947.85,"end":9970.463,"text":"不了,就配不了,所以我們就認為其實要有更具體的一個解決的方法。所以其實我在這邊我提到了一個修正動議的部分,那剛剛部長在回應的部分沒有特別提,那我想說如果今天沒有辦法提到這個部分的時候,我也希望財政部能夠針對本席提的部分去多加研究、考慮要如何解決這個事情。"},{"start":9971.403,"end":9995.26,"text":"因為你剛剛提到說有很多委員提出來20幾個版本裡面大部分都具體性跟客觀普遍性都不太夠那其實我這邊有具體提到了一個所得稅的一個回饋地方機制的部分那我提案是提5%這很具體的一個狀態那我們希望針對這樣的一個做法的時候能夠來解決地方財政不足的問題以上 謝謝"},{"start":9997.541,"end":9997.601,"text":"一、二"},{"start":10028.659,"end":10039.407,"text":"黃珊珊黃珊珊委員來我可以再講一下嗎?他在講電話等一下我先講一句話好不好如果要壓時間正不贊成?贊成壓時間請舉手"},{"start":10046.291,"end":10055.956,"text":"好 謝謝沒有 參考啦 這個也不列入紀錄啦但是 我們心裡就知道說大家反對壓實踐的請舉手好 請放下沒有啦 就是大家瞭解一下"},{"start":10066.636,"end":10086.628,"text":"沒有啦,其實...欸,郭召瑋,其實我就讓...我可不可以問一個問題?這一屆...這一屆立法院到底你們行政院...你們財政部提不...提不提得出版本?這一屆有四年啊!四年你拿得出來還拿不出來?我們...我...我...我們對選民的承諾就是四年!不壓時間!壓掉幾屆啊?"},{"start":10092.097,"end":10106.104,"text":"請黃珊珊、黃委員我剛剛在這邊坐很久也聽了大家的理由我覺得理由都不用再說了啦就是說要不要壓時間而已嘛那我覺得立法機關很簡單這是我們自己的決議那個建請已經很客氣了"},{"start":10107.965,"end":10135.1,"text":"時間你做不到,你們不是常常會說至愛難行,那就來文說為什麼我做不到。我覺得到時候可以正式的說明。大家也不會為難你,因為預算也要審了嘛,所以不需要說互相堅持啦。所以見請,有時間,你有困難,就到時候說明。我相信我們在座的財政委員會的委員也不會強人所難,但是自己的立場把它表明清楚啦。那個競速也是有時間壓力啦。"},{"start":10136.121,"end":10153.293,"text":"那何必要那個時間呢?如果照黃委員的講法何必要那個時間呢?那就沒有意義啦!對啊!對啊!我覺得黃商務員說有道理我們寫這樣過去阿如果他們覺得有困難到時候他們再回文也可以啦!就這樣也好啦!阿他剛剛已經表示有困難了咧!你都沒有聽那麼久!他已經看了一遍了啦!"},{"start":10158.656,"end":10186.261,"text":"我具體建議啦因為下個期如果還說要開公聽會要做什麼都可以就是是不是在委員會審議前送來我們也許在審議雖然我們根本沒審這個案子沒有排案大概幾個月對那原則上我們審議前嘛審議如果我們是9月開議我們10月才排那你10月才送來就好審議前我沒有壓時間審議前你送來至少我在審的時候有一個你的板"},{"start":10187.23,"end":10215.709,"text":"不是,我們在審的時候,到現在我還沒擺 我也很反對壓時間喔我覺得禁書就是有時間壓力喔那為什麼一定要壓一個日期 就是要給壓力啊行政部門當然叫你 我們認為這樣就有時間壓力因為這部法案有它的特殊性我真的沒騙你,跟一般的提案的壓時間不一樣我什麼時候反對你們壓過時間啊我從來都沒有啊 如果照黃商委員這麼說的話其實我們並沒有壓時間我們希望審議前也可以看到行政院的盤本你們壓一個日期啊 那你們如果沒有要壓時間的話你們就把那個劃掉就好啦 不是"},{"start":10216.249,"end":10234.304,"text":"其實不然我們弄一個前提嘛剛郭委員說的那麼好辦公聽會我們再辦一次公聽會他就要送過來這樣也是還可以嘛因為郭委員說要公聽會我也覺得支持嘛啊辦公聽會以後那就財政部就送過來嘛因為他已經有在做了辦公聽會就是在彙整意見彙整以後他就要送過來啦辦完公聽會之後"},{"start":10235.485,"end":10249.552,"text":"然後也不是說馬上就申出來啦,辦完公聽會就最主要是...你看你剛沒有來的時候每個縣市的立委講的意見都不一樣每個縣市的立委都站在自己的立場來談啊財政部已經去會診了嘛財政部已經開始做這個工作了就是22個縣市,就是22個縣市大家的意見都不一樣啊財政部也是要有一個決斷,不然所有事情都一而不決嘛"},{"start":10262.198,"end":10287.486,"text":"我看那個234提案我建議主席齁這個第一個提案先跳過啦他意思說先討論234要不然他有事情先討論234好了啦這樣子我們這個臨時提案的部分也請部長這邊來想一下他雖然講禁訴那因為委員有其他的想法我們就分到第二個臨時提案第二個臨時提案有沒有意見"},{"start":10290.678,"end":10290.698,"text":"吳委員"},{"start":10310.68,"end":10333.321,"text":"我覺得大家都希望財政部的版本趕快提出來那這個時候大家就提供我們的公式的意見那我這邊零提自己有二、三案兩個那那一位委員、委員等不到他請我幫他講一下他的第四案那我就二、三、四一起講可以嗎我們一個一個那第二案齁臨時提案有沒有意義"},{"start":10334.417,"end":10360.433,"text":"沒有異議我們就確定沒有意見可以跟他加一樣嗎?再加個緊述兩個字不用了嗎?建請就好了嗎?好那第二案就是沒有意見我們就確定通過請判到第三案臨時提案請問第三個臨時提案有無異議"},{"start":10364.574,"end":10376.602,"text":"財政部有沒有意見沒有沒有意見好第三案財政部沒有意見我們照提案通過請翻到第四案是賴慧如委員的提案"},{"start":10380.492,"end":10406.294,"text":"請部長這邊看一下他有一些修正他是說透過調整統籌分配稅款的權重改善弱勢縣市經費不足的問題然後希望緊述提出他說改緊述提出兩種具體分配權重作為修法參考好的那修改為緊述提出財政部總部長有沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見那我們就是修正"},{"start":10407.7,"end":10433.182,"text":"確定通過好謝謝主席來請郭昭偉主席我們一直糾葛在第一個案子的賴氏保委員的部分我嘗試提出一個稍微的修正大家參考看看就是呢這是從123456第6行嘛第6行最尾端的兩個字原詞建請就是加一個建嘛你們一直講建請少了一個建制啦然後於"},{"start":10434.683,"end":10462.449,"text":"建請財政部於開議後﹖你先聽我講完下個會期、第二會期開議後提出財政收支法草案的修法進度報告並於立法院財政委員會審議說明是否有當進行公決就是我的建議是這樣子好不好"},{"start":10463.499,"end":10474.326,"text":"就是進度報告的時候你下個會期的時候就要提出來啦。這樣可不可以?好不好?您蓋一下啦。進度還要等三個月嗎?進度要三個月嗎?進度哪裡需要三個月?開議是九月。進度現在就可以擬出來,講實話進度一個月都太久了。提出進度欸。22個縣市大家意見都不一樣。黃珊珊、黃委員。"},{"start":10494.722,"end":10507.546,"text":"這個如果只有進度報告那現在就可以提了不用三個月但是如果說可以的話我們還是一樣我們希望在委員會審議時有版本可以審不然又變成是立法院擴權了我覺得這樣不好"},{"start":10511.067,"end":10528.621,"text":"那這樣我們現在還是糾結在臨時提案第一案就是時間究竟要不要把它確定出來那也謝謝郭昭偉剛剛提出的一個折衷的方式那不曉得他提出的方式其他委員大家贊不贊同"},{"start":10529.562,"end":10544.59,"text":"不支持!不支持!不支持!不支持!進度還要三個月喔!太久了!隨便問這個!進度一個月就已經超過了!我講實話!進度一個月就很恐慌!進度可能兩個禮拜!我們還是請一下提案人啦!原提案人!大使保代委員!"},{"start":10546.021,"end":10558.932,"text":"禁度不能接受啦!禁度下個禮拜就可以提了!禁度明天就可以提啦!還什麼了不起啊!馬上明天就可以提啦!我們的工作就是督促啊!民日、復民日、民日和期多!"},{"start":10574.113,"end":10592.077,"text":"這各位瞭解一點喔 這個郭文你也是老鳥不是菜鳥 見情就等於是隨便你做文章啦 見情欸 建議請你拜託 Please 哎呦這麼Humble吧 只差立法院只差沒有跟財政部長下跪而已 見情欸 不是 不是 見情啦 見情見情"},{"start":10597.318,"end":10624.569,"text":"好吧 既然是 既然建請了 我們就要求證如流了 我們是這一部法案有特定性的我們剛剛有提到說呢 也不是說沒有 讓他們一段時間在整個下個會期 也尊重你們 壓一個時間嘛來提出修法進度報告 就是你讓他這段時間就有一個 有一個比較把握嘛你現在 讓他說現在沒有把握的情況 你讓他做沒有把握 那個制度有漏洞 那不是大家都在扛"},{"start":10625.009,"end":10643.587,"text":"那現在就有兩個提議嘛,一個是修正,一個是原版嘛,一個是修正嘛,修正他就說加了建前兩次再加進度嘛,那不然就針對這兩個版本,已經討論這麼久,他還說要討論這麼久,不然大家馬上看到底,決定要原來的版本還是修正的版本因為剛剛我有提議說要辦公廳會啊,對啊,對啊,對啊,我會在排"},{"start":10646.65,"end":10651.811,"text":"公聽會之後,然後還有各個縣市他們對於這個公聽會地方制度法這個沒有那麼快的時間啊我們是希望說財政部在開會之後,下個會期開議之後就是把那個至少你這個暑假收集到的各個22個縣市"},{"start":10674.515,"end":10690.948,"text":"他們到底現在的這個指標是怎麼樣那有沒有共識出來利用修會的時間大家再開個會好好尋出一個最大的共識另外就是公聽會等這個都確定出來之後再看說修法要怎麼修"},{"start":10691.889,"end":10720.581,"text":"好 謝謝李委如你所願我會再繼續來安排公聽會我也會辦開什麼會我們都會趙委員的意思趙委我剛剛提的案子能不能請部長回應一下好 請部長回應一下剛剛這個郭昭偉他的一個修正是 謝謝趙委謝謝各位委員那我想我們剛剛已經講過就是說原來有關我們賴委員這個提案是希望在開以前提出版本"},{"start":10721.221,"end":10748.901,"text":"那我們也提過就是說其實對於委員會雖然非常就是說非常非常的容許我們用所以用一個建請但是我們對於委員會的提案的決議我們都是非常尊重而且一定會在實現內把它達成那所以呢雖然是建請但是對我們來說依然我們要遵照辦理的話事實上確實有困難度所以我必須要先說明因為否則就是一個不負責任就是說我是雖然這樣同意但最後又提不出來"},{"start":10749.481,"end":10773.7,"text":"所以我們這裡還是建議是不是說就是建請財政部就是說在這個下個會期開議以後我們提出一個修法的一個進度報告我想因為這中間第一個我們財政部還是會去跟地方政府去了解他們的指標真正意義比如說剛剛也有委員提出一些在指標面要考慮的一些因素也蠻多也都有提出這樣的意見"},{"start":10774.56,"end":10790.955,"text":"所以我們還必須要第一個把它具體化然後來凝聚一個共識因為最主要指標講是這麼講但是你要怎麼把它具體化讓它能夠成為一個數字或是權重以及它的分配的一個比例這個是這個都需要時間去溝通以及它的影響層面因為這個縣市跟那個縣市他們的意見"},{"start":10793.877,"end":10814.57,"text":"不是那麼容易溝通,這個人覺得這個縣市對他最好,那個縣市覺得說因為你這樣所以我就會受損所以這個都需要凝聚共識,都需要時間,那這個部分我們也會努力去做那另外也謝謝召委也說會再召開公聽會,包含召專家學者也會來還有各縣市政府,大家都在聽取這樣的一個意見,我想我們一直朝這個路上在努力"},{"start":10815.01,"end":10829.316,"text":"但是如果要壓時間的話,確實大家都知道不是那麼可能,否則為什麼25年的5個版本都過不了關嗎?就是因為這個原因,所以我們是不是建議是這樣子?講百萬文喔!講百萬文喔!你的意思是,剛才郭文的提案是說"},{"start":10839.417,"end":10863.758,"text":"開議後提出開議前提出開議後提出修法進度是不是進度報告好那加一個括弧加一個括弧一定要包括修法的版本進度你可以進度啊沒有不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不"},{"start":10865.199,"end":10885.744,"text":"版本要有啊!你要有版本啊!你沒有版本的民意啊!其實那個...這樣子好不好部長我知道你們很尊重立法院嘛所以有沒有建請他們都會做所以我們也不用建請我們就原來這個版本就好那如果說你們真的提不出來齁這個當然我們立法院有我們的進度要走嘛我們要對人民有交代嘛"},{"start":10886.284,"end":10900.486,"text":"而且剛剛很多人說還有其他相關法令啊財政什麼地方制度法、公職法相關法令我相信我們新政府上來效率也很好我相信他們也會在各個委員會提出尤其是民黨是執政黨一定會在各個委員會提出相對應的應該修正的版本嘛"},{"start":10902.168,"end":10929.953,"text":"那我們帶領著往前走,帶領著國家往前走。我想執政黨也不會落後啦,他也會提出相關的,反正他們不提出來我們也沒辦法嘛。那當然我們也期待他們有提出其他相對的,如果你說治權的部分嘛,我有看的相關很多嘛,地方制度法啊,或者公債法啊等等的,公債法,該提出的當然就努力去提出來,我們今天就針對這個。我想在討論消息其實是一樣啦,如果大家沒意見就是這樣子,有一件當然的部分就是民主時代嘛。"},{"start":10930.413,"end":10939.476,"text":"當然你們也可以自愛難行,這個剛剛黃珊瑋也說過了我們寫公文正式嘛,正式公文回來了公聽會我覺得為什麼不用寫進去,這個工作是我們要辦的,這個不是要求財政部好,謝謝,那現在請宣讀剛剛郭國文、張偉他提的這個修正的動議唸給大家聽一下,臨時提案"},{"start":10960.869,"end":10987.682,"text":"臨時提案第一案郭文提出的修正動議後段建請財政部於下會期第二會期開議後提出財政收支劃分法修正草案修法進度向立法院財政委員提出提出修法進度報告"},{"start":10989.824,"end":10992.786,"text":"現在立法院財政委員會提出修法進度報告"},{"start":11012.02,"end":11037.293,"text":"進度他們先來。這樣子好不好?這個再跟國務院參詳一下啦齁。前面已經減刑了啦。後面你們覺得這樣子,這樣就困難了。講到這麼困難就這樣齁。我給你開一條路啦。原來說開疫前。開疫後兩個月就三年了。再給你多兩個月。開疫後就等於從現在開始算就半年了。就差不多半年時間了。"},{"start":11040.445,"end":11064.94,"text":"開議後了啦!開議後兩個月啦!我們主要是要一個態度!時間我都覺得好商量!重要是財政部要提出版本!這是我們的態度!開議後兩個月!十一月底!啊不!十一月底乾脆!要到十一月底!要趕快結束以啊!十一月!好啦!我們就確定了齁!就是請...開議後!好來!請川普黨講一下!"},{"start":11069.516,"end":11088.204,"text":"還是跟委員報告,這真的不是說時間,為我們要有共識才能夠達到最大的共識,才能夠真正進到法條裡面去,不是說壓一個時間,壓一個時間最後並沒有共識的情況下,其實它的意義是不大的啦,謝謝,真的委員 那就照原版本吧,如果這樣就照原版本吧"},{"start":11089.002,"end":11091.863,"text":"財政部擺明了就是因為上面沒有交代你不敢、不敢擔任啊!好,現在休息協商"},{"start":11121.654,"end":11144.252,"text":"趙偉我覺得不用再協商了就是大家做個決定了啦就是說因為民進黨團很早就說他們不提版本所以為什麼大家今天要下日期的原因嘛如果你沒有說過我永遠不提版本我們為什麼要下日期呢對啊如果財政部是不下版本現在就說不用浪費大家時間我們明天就可以開始審"},{"start":11146.001,"end":11173.73,"text":"我們就是要你一個態度就是你要有版本是這個很重要但你現在為止一直打太劇情就是你不要有版本因為長官沒有交代就這樣啊 那個那個黃帝和阿鼎林你也是十幾我們在野黨執政樓提了十幾個版本你也都不能修一大堆理由賴清德一聲吝嗇馬上修了馬上過了這東西就是這樣啊很悲哀啊這個總部長真的一點健保都沒有"},{"start":11175.71,"end":11202.892,"text":"這個每個版本差異性這麼大要怎麼修啊?這個版本真的比較複雜啦那個賴委員沒有修的財政部有自己版本嘛不一定要配合大家嘛財政部我自己有提版本賴委員你剛剛休息很久後我們休息一下好不好?那個現在不是休息那你這樣一直講我不用休息啊現在沒有休息啊你就不要休息啊他剛剛說休息的主席還是有休息啊你還沒說啊你也要說啊這個直播的這個怎麼可以沒有講休息沒有直播的我們讓麥克風有休息一下"},{"start":11204.554,"end":11206.297,"text":"那剛剛才出來講,講一下有什麼關係?我是建議說大家休息一下"},{"start":11216.471,"end":11241.087,"text":"沒有公式表決法,輸了就認了嘛!反正你還好我輸了我們就認啦!輸了就認啦!如果你們也都認同說公聽會阿還有那些事權、財權都很重要的話是不是這些東西等開完會我們會診了以後會診以後再事實講出來?要不然開完如果有問題怎麼提議?"},{"start":11246.071,"end":11247.972,"text":"開會很難掌握各界的意見"},{"start":11270.152,"end":11294.833,"text":"因為現在整個還涉及事權的地方制度法還有五委員的原名單單一個原名的解決就有三個法這個東西一向可能大家都從來沒面對過一個項目而已就要修到三個法其實整合是很困難的"},{"start":11296.254,"end":11312.142,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":11314.407,"end":11327.571,"text":"因為壓下去我們就不夠客氣了才是我們啊你們就順便提一下我們壓了以後你們就順便提一下啊所以這東西從先前都還沒有討論過你知道嗎?公代法如果討論的話還要再找直轄市來因為原民區跟直轄市沒有那是真的沒有關係啦我還要扯貴貨"},{"start":11345.929,"end":11346.457,"text":"他們的就是欸"},{"start":11349.684,"end":11373.693,"text":"真的啦拜託委員沒有公司那我們百分之一出來他們演了直轄市每個地方政府每個地方政府都舉財政委員你贊成給他再多兩個月這樣子就結束了好不好真的啦再給他多兩個月你看你一出來為什麼那麼多年都沒有過就是因為那個"},{"start":11376.494,"end":11376.694,"text":"講得講得講得"},{"start":11396.873,"end":11416.643,"text":"待會原金到兩個月了,就這樣吧,你們不能再說嗎?啊我們今天委員就把他出去,啊建勤?對啊,就建勤啊,建勤而已不要再盯著啦,那表決很無聊啊如果建勤還要這樣的話,就難看,這麼小的事只有建勤而已啊,有要幹嘛?"},{"start":11429.364,"end":11429.384,"text":"免費時間"},{"start":11446.498,"end":11467.214,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員,不要這麼講,你們提醒我們也都會盡力去做啦,你們也知道我們過程有什麼過關,我們都會跟委員的決心,我們還是實話說啦,我做不到啦,跟你們說做不到,我覺得是不好的,但是我覺得這是一個很重要的事。"},{"start":11478.433,"end":11478.453,"text":"議員委員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":11507.793,"end":11510.196,"text":"財政收支劃分法"},{"start":11528.015,"end":11549.837,"text":"好 那現在我們繼續開會 現在有兩個提案一個是賴世保、賴委員的提案一個是剛剛我們郭國文、郭昭瑜有一個修正的提案那部長有沒有最後 你有沒有什麼智慧的想法我還是聽聽看你 因為我很尊重財政部的想法"},{"start":11551.984,"end":11566.397,"text":"謝謝召委謝謝召委那也謝謝各位委員我想我們還是很實話實說也就是說對於我們財友會的決議我們其實財政部歷來都是非常的尊重也是會去照辦所以我們在這裡跟非常坦白跟各位說"},{"start":11567.037,"end":11569.841,"text":"也就是說剛剛賴委員這個提案其實真的是有困難所以我們才會建議說我們可以在會議因為中間還要開公聽會嘛然後我們也還會再召開相關的一個地方政府來討論嘛所以認為我們這個部分"},{"start":11582.598,"end":11597.105,"text":"在聽取各多方意見以後那這樣我們才提出一個修法進度的報告的話那這樣也才會了解我們大家在這個努力的一個方向我想這個還是我們要說明因為實話還是要實說是到原來的啦就原版就好了反正一樣的"},{"start":11610.273,"end":11636.968,"text":"好 那照原案贊成原案賴事發委員所提的臨時提案也這個沒有什麼的齁臨時提案贊成的請舉手一、一、二、三、四、五五個五票好 謝謝那現場委員人數有幾位八位八位五位那已經反對你要舉要舉嗎反對的請舉手"},{"start":11646.223,"end":11650.124,"text":"確定照原提案臨時提案代委員的提案通過謝謝"},{"start":11673.666,"end":11696.759,"text":"本市會議做如下決議財政收支劃分法修正草案等20案審查完均並更正令則其繼續審查請問各位人對以上的決議有無異議沒有異議確定通過散會"},{"start":11714.079,"end":11739.572,"text":"19案：立法院第11屆第1會議名稱：立法院第1會議名稱：立法院第2會議名稱：立法院第3會議名稱：立法院第4會議名稱：立法院第5會議名稱：立法院第6會議名稱：立法院第7會議名稱：立法院第8會議名稱：立法院第9會議名稱：立法院第10會議名稱：立法院第11會議名稱：立法院第12會議名稱：立法院第13會議名稱：立法院第14會議名稱：立法院第14會議名稱：立法院第15會議名稱：立法院第16會議名稱�"},{"start":11744.944,"end":11747.406,"text":"財政收支劃分法議員委員會第11屆第1會期財政收支劃分法"}]}},{"id":"154110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee142d0b32f3d8ab18a10c8204f6a4417db433867d048431dc735def7ba9b4f84173b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"16:31:21 - 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各位委員 各位官員 大家午安 大家好先跟院長報告 因為我今天身體有點不適 所以有點失聲所以等一下在詢問的時候 可能聲音會有時候高高低低的請院長允許我還是繼續來做質詢好 那我們是不是請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長說明"},{"start":43.923,"end":58.775,"text":"張委員好 委員多保重好 謝謝院長第一次見到院長很榮幸看到院長也很覺得說第一次見面用這樣的形式跟你見到面首先要對你表示肯定因為非常辛苦"},{"start":59.775,"end":85.644,"text":"這個禮拜二、三、四、五每天都要坐在、 站在這邊接受質詢。這個馬拉松希望你可以保重身體。不過今天主要講的還是國會改革的這個討論。首先還是要跟院長分享跟院長說明這個賴清德總統自從當了總統以後他是第一位沒有跟這個在野黨的主席來去做溝通的院長。"},{"start":86.804,"end":110.264,"text":"所以大家都知道蔡英文執政八年我們都擔心完全執政完全腐敗那絕對的權力也是絕對的腐敗所以我們認為國會改革非常重要尤其國會改革無法裡面有關於這個調查權跟聽證權的部分我們認為相當的重要所以當然院長你可以非常清楚在5月17號四次的院會裡面這個"},{"start":112.686,"end":135.514,"text":"開了四次的院會第一天在立法院的時候國民黨黨團我們大家群起為了要維護議事的和諧我們保護這個議事的和諧保護韓院長保護我們敬愛的這個周萬來秘書長那也看到了這個民進黨的委員群起而攻所以不僅我們辛苦的韓院長在第一次發聲有院長有立法院院長"},{"start":136.374,"end":164.153,"text":"被這個在立法院的時候被限制在房間裡面不能出來也看到第一次我們有行政人員我們的行政州外的秘書長被搶奪文件然後被進行這個攻擊的狀況後來還在冰敷我相信也是國人所不知道的那我也跟院長卓院長報告其實國民黨如果你是國民黨的行政院長我相信你可能很難在這邊站著很輕鬆的來回答的質詢的問題"},{"start":165.774,"end":190.259,"text":"那可是我要跟院長報告其實國民黨就是理性務實以及團結的政黨所以這邊要跟院長請益就是說本席對於這個立法院的這個調查權跟聽證權非常的重視以及國人在過去蔡英文執政的時候不需要很多的弊案繼續延續到我們的這個賴清德尤其是院長你的執政任期"},{"start":190.979,"end":216.776,"text":"所以我們民眾非常要知道的是我們一直在關心的查口罩查快篩疫苗查雞蛋以及查光電那我看到我們的劉部長已經上了他應該知道我在問什麼我有默契所以我們要查的連最近在查數位身份證的時候我們都會發現有診測反黑的狀況所以我們是不是請我們的同仁播一下影片我現在院長有看過這個影片"},{"start":223.749,"end":240.422,"text":"好,可以看到這15秒的影片這個數位身份證我簡單跟卓院長報告這個數位身份證是賴清德當時當院長的時候預算是將近42億然後後來在蘇貞昌院長的時候就決定停止"},{"start":240.882,"end":257.807,"text":"花了人民已經十三億的納稅錢那當然立法委員要行使這個我們在內政委員會有行使一個調閱小組在查資料的時候就發現有這一大本將近一天多月的這個都是黑畫面所以我要跟院長分享就是說其實我們都很認真努力"},{"start":258.507,"end":279.77,"text":"因為我個人我本身過去一直擔任會計師的工作,所以我特別帶了一個計算機啊,帶計算機去裡面,想不到你居然破我的工,我的計算機沒辦法對付我,全業都是黑的文件。所以請部長、院長可不可以跟我分享一下,看到這本黑的文件的時候,請問院長你自己本身是不是有嚇一跳?"},{"start":280.566,"end":303.625,"text":"早上部長已經答覆過了,請部長再答覆一次是,我想張委員你也是調閱小組的成員在兩次的由高金昭委來主持的時候特別有提到有關招標文件跟合約書涉及商業機密部分可以塗黑遮蔽那你看到你所謂不曉得有什麼管道出來因為按照立法委員來講職權也是調閱人員不應該隨便公佈這些資料你可以看得出來那個不是公文"},{"start":304.065,"end":327.769,"text":"那個就是服務建議書那所謂的服務建議書就是可能你很在乎的包括裡面的晶片或是服務建議那就是涉及商業機密那也就是高津召委所提到的部分所以呢我們在內政部或是工程或是行政院應該提供的內部的公文資料我們全部提供以內政部來講我們提供了87份五大卷的文件這些都全部提供了"},{"start":328.169,"end":351.656,"text":"所以非常清楚的跟各位報告我們是依據這個立法院裡面在成立這個調閱小組或者是我們的資訊公開法還有各支法所提供的資料那您再給我30秒鐘那有關於這個這是中央印製廠跟相關的服務建議書的廠商他們所提的服務建議書那裡面全部有遮蔽的部分到後來有部分遮蔽我們也做了若干的改進"},{"start":353.357,"end":380.317,"text":"其實部長的解釋非常的詳細其實我在委員會有執行過其實這不是你的爛攤子其實你也不用護航的這麼嚴重有沒有護航我只是講真話這個的原因全部反黑的原因其實我認為就是執政執政過久的一個問題其實這裡面代表了幾個現象第一個可能就是廠商對行政院的不尊重第二個有可能是上級長官對立法院的不尊重"},{"start":381.098,"end":400.656,"text":"那我也跟這個部長報告一下其實當時我們在開這個調查小組委員會的時候我不好意思講的是師長當時就已經跟我們講說裡面沒有機密文件所以那時候這裡面的文件沒有機密那現在部長知道現在這些資料又還原了嗎?"},{"start":402.122,"end":428.428,"text":"跟委員報告我們的代理司長確實是提到我們內政部內部的公文是沒有機密所以我們全部提供但是在附件資料裡面的招標文件跟技術的服務建議書確實涉及到廠商他自己本身的商業機密的話我們也是依法有據請他來做這個處理所以我要跟部長報告為什麼會還原跟院長報告為什麼會還原就是民意的力量"},{"start":429.088,"end":455.104,"text":"就是因為我們開了記者會了以後所以資料就還原了所以這就是我們認為最不能接受的點就是說如果我們今天沒有開記者會我們沒有把這東西訴諸於大眾的時候其實廠商他也不知道要怎麼做怎麼會有的文件一下子全部反黑又一下子全部都可以揭露出來這兩邊狀況是讓人民非常不能接受的所以我還要跟院長報告"},{"start":456.525,"end":481.055,"text":"可是當有些廠商已經願意全部公佈資料的時候有一家公司目前還是不願意公佈資料而且內政部當時因為太早做決定了還發了一個公文說不能公佈資料就是國際顧問管理公司到現在還沒有公佈資料那一個我請問一個13頁的標案已經畫了13頁的標案13頁標案的廠商都願意全部公佈資料了"},{"start":482.395,"end":508.88,"text":"國據他是我們邀請的第三方公正單位只花了五百萬結果他說他的資料不公佈所以這就是我要跟這個院長跟部長講的有一些廠商公佈資料有一些廠商不公佈資料所以這樣才會讓廠商對行政官員不尊重而且讓辛苦的基層公務人員無所適從啊委員這樣你說明會讓民眾認為當天所有委員拿到的都是這一本"},{"start":509.72,"end":530.928,"text":"其實其中一份的附件而已,它有五大卷,87份的資料,裡面規範的很多,它的技術上的規範不可以公開。然後有其他的頁面,是因為我們基層公務員覺得太辛苦,反黑一千多頁,太辛苦了,所以其他的文件,好幾大冊,全部只有提供目錄。"},{"start":531.428,"end":553.206,"text":"好所以這件事情我只是要希望說這個未來院長跟部長這個部分一定要好好來尊重這個立法院行使這個職權的這個權利。第二個我要來跟院長請議啊就是說我希望院長要保持行政中立我相信你一直保持行政中立可是我相信一直有人在干預你"},{"start":553.846,"end":575.782,"text":"沒有這一次國會改革行政院提出覆議的時候院會是禮拜四開會結果你們馬上火速把資料送給總統府請問為什麼總統府要拖到禮拜二上午核定下午才把資料送來立法院這是不是有很明顯的拖時間所以原本我們這覆議案投票其實禮拜三程序委員會結束禮拜五一讀"},{"start":579.704,"end":599.86,"text":"委員會報告完畢後其實昨天禮拜二就可以來表決了結果居然要等到這禮拜五結果我們這麼多的行政官員坐在這邊請問這些行政官員來為國會改革復議來背書是他們的選擇嗎所以我院長我先來幫你做一件事情我是請全所有的行政官員"},{"start":601.821,"end":614.046,"text":"有一個端午的連假我請學友行政官員來問一下因為我覺得國會改革覆議行政院只有提來就兩個重點第一個就是認為違憲嘛違憲由大法官來去決定就好了"},{"start":614.485,"end":639.048,"text":"第2個覺得行政院自愛難行現在在場這麼多的行政官員我是不是可以請院長幫忙是不是請行政院官員我來詢問一下民意基礎來詢問一下有沒有各位部會首長覺得如果國會改革聽證權跟調查權公布出來以後各位行政首長如果認為說會被我們聽證員調查權覺得內心會擔心害怕或是有疑慮有風險的可不可以舉個手"},{"start":640.012,"end":641.374,"text":"報告委員,對不起,我們不用舉手來回答問題,這樣留不下記錄。"}]}},{"id":"154108","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee14222ac3b59c53804cec8204f6a4417db433867d048431dc7355b99e55e91f9650e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"16:08:55 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個解釋憲法嗎?"},{"start":419.19,"end":446.59,"text":"這不應該是司法院在解釋憲法所以說在這個條文提出覆議的其中一條寫說這個是違憲那司法院都還沒有解釋違憲為什麼行政院就可以說是違憲所以我想在行政院的覆議案中已經扣立法院這個這個我們的違憲的一個大帽子了已經僭越司法權的職權了所以院長您現在還兼司法院長嗎我們將來還有司法的就憲法的救濟"},{"start":447.27,"end":462.396,"text":"另外再請教您一下既然我們要談到憲法我想請教您幾個憲法層次的問題根據中華民國憲法徵修條文前言會因應國家統一前的需要依照憲法第27條第一項第三款跟第174條第一款的規定徵修本憲法條文"},{"start":466.058,"end":487.286,"text":"那憲法這條文十一條也規定自由地區跟大陸地區間人民權利的義務關係跟其他事務的處理得以法律為特別的規定也就是兩岸人民關係條例請問院長何謂國家統一前何謂自由地區與大陸地區我知道我原來講的是大陸跟台灣都是中華民國那院長你認為呢你認為呢我認為"},{"start":492.964,"end":497.009,"text":"中華民國有分自由地區跟大陸地區,這是我們憲法的規定,我想您身為中華民國的行政院長應該不會否認這樣子的原因。"},{"start":514.414,"end":524.638,"text":"所以說賴總統所說的兩岸互不隸屬,您認為是兩岸互不隸屬還是兩國互不隸屬?是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬。所以說這個就是指一個中國各自表述的意思嗎?這不是哪有一個中國的問題,這是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬。所以您的意思是兩國互不隸屬的意思嗎?中華民國就是主權獨立的國家。"},{"start":544.753,"end":556.872,"text":"中華民國是主權獨立的國家所以說我們就包含了自由地區跟大陸地區這不就是我們憲法裡面規定的嗎我從來不認為當初是從臺北飛到大陸去是從中華民國飛到中華民國不是吧"},{"start":559.907,"end":577.901,"text":"請問你從臺北飛到高雄,你從臺北飛到澎湖,這樣不是也是中華民國飛到中華民國啊?委員飛過去大陸的是從中華民國飛到中華民國嗎?不是啊。請問一下,我剛剛跟請教你啊,我從臺北飛到桃園,我飛到這個我們澎湖,這樣算不算是中華民國飛到中華民國?當然是。"},{"start":579.142,"end":604.827,"text":"所以我想院長這個部分也要再就教於您喔就是好這次提到的就是說您的復議的韓文中有提到說這個舉手表決喔那其實我想對於舉手表決來說針對立法院的議事規則第35條規定總共有五項的表決第二項就是舉手表決院長您當過這個立法委員您應該知道立法院議事規則第35條有規定"},{"start":606.887,"end":607.007,"text":"許宇甄委員"}]}},{"id":"154106","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154106","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee1427d2c093e6e2f9870c8204f6a4417db433867d048431dc735b62c4ba8584081235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"15:47:05 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舉國華藍各行各業都可能受到這個違憲亂政法案的影響各位部長,你們所管的業務我們按照第47條第一項第二項的規定政府機關部隊,部隊就是國防部法人包括宗教法人、社團法人之內政部"},{"start":309.019,"end":324.555,"text":"還有社會上有關係的人包括稅務人員、會計師這些也都是還有農漁會的相關組織還有包括產業界、科技界的聲音首先我想請教一下國防部顧部長"},{"start":325.987,"end":347.245,"text":"如果按照相關規定,你不管是文件調閱,或者是質詢的時候,或者是聽證權,你如果違反相關的規定,你就必須刻意這個罰款,這個在基層我們的部隊,我們的士官兵,他們的反應如何呢?"},{"start":348.325,"end":376.216,"text":"跟委員報告稍微給我一點時間就是說按照585號的解釋立法院調查權行使它只是一個輔助性的權利為了它憲法上的職權所以585號解釋也說調查權所得調查的對象並不是毫無限制那它現在要擴及到這個國防部以下的各部隊那事實上針對面對立法院要負責的是國防部部本身"},{"start":376.876,"end":377.097,"text":"主席"},{"start":396.66,"end":418.846,"text":"他應該要本於他自己的職責所要保守的一個相關的行政特權上面賦予的一個機密或者是相關的國防或軍事的機密他如何做一個判斷當然要叫到國防部來做判斷那他現在直接可以下到我國防部局下的上千個單位的部隊去要求那任何一個小小的部隊"},{"start":420.927,"end":424.75,"text":"所以所有的基層士官兵、報將官、士官都會受到影響,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":445.937,"end":469.912,"text":"我認為是絕對這樣的部隊如果他可以直接跟部隊要的話這個會影響到整個部隊怎麼去保國衛民怎麼去打仗怎麼去抄野訓練沒有辦法能夠抗拒在的情況之下他沒有辦法做一個合理的判斷的情況之下他會嚴重的侵害到相關可能的機密資訊不只是部隊內政部"},{"start":472.864,"end":477.406,"text":"根據憲法十四條還有我們認為符合國際人權公約其實團體治理是政府要低度管理而且高度尊重他們的團體治理"},{"start":493.411,"end":510.307,"text":"所以在內政部現在所轄管的這些人民團體跟合作社大概有兩萬五千零九十二個包括委員所提到的像獅子會、符輪社、宗教團體那事實上我在這兩天這個我們宗教團體有的人就直接講說那也這樣我們為什麼要去立法院"},{"start":511.748,"end":538.619,"text":"大師傅祖師都可能來這邊接受詢問的是 他們是佛寺團體或者是佛教協會那如果有問題的話變成我們要請他們過來到立法院接受立法委員的調查我想這非常不符合我們憲法還有不符合我們國際人權公約上面對於人民團體健身資格的尊重當然他們是非常不同意有這樣子的說法因為他們認為說在立法院的職權行使法應該本於我們的五權分立的原則來處理"},{"start":540.627,"end":560.26,"text":"經濟部主管產業跟科技國務長你來自科技界科技業跟產業界對這個迴旋亂盛的惡法反應如何科技界應該是非常的恐懼因為我們有很多生產的機密或者研發的機密叫你提供你一定要提供"},{"start":562.256,"end":562.796,"text":"農民有沒有可能被調來問?"},{"start":591.24,"end":604.869,"text":"愚民有沒有可能按照你相關的規定,相關人員、社會上有關係的人員?我們比阿伯,正產的,他做醫護人員,這樣我覆議完,我有可能讓你另外一條去蒙嗎?"},{"start":606.101,"end":606.601,"text":"農委會的反應如何"},{"start":631.852,"end":631.872,"text":"韓國瑜"}]}},{"id":"154105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154105","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee1421cb8a8441d866c59c8204f6a4417db433867d048431dc735237fa65589b61d9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"15:25:51 - 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院長那我想從早上到現在我們民進黨有很多的委員針對一個藐視國會就有提出一個質疑那我個人認為現在的公務人員是一個危險行業為什麼"},{"start":157.845,"end":161.446,"text":"國家還是要持續前進的但是公務人員絕對不能後悔回答我說過"},{"start":173.992,"end":198.229,"text":"虛偽陳述是每個政治工作者的自己的政治人格自殺我跟國人都不會容忍我還是希望所有的內閣團隊面對國會的任何的詢問都是要依據專業依據事實誠懇的回答所以不會偶白回答問題現在的問題是出在於說連我們自己國民黨的召委吳宗憲什麼叫反質詢的定義都講不清楚的時候你就這些官員"},{"start":199.378,"end":199.618,"text":"徐富癸．徐富癸"},{"start":217.675,"end":246.266,"text":"這個整個國民黨跟民眾黨是要讓我們所有的行政體系產生一個恐懼感這樣他們才可以逾期逾秋但是院長我要跟你說明的是根據我們現在的民調來看我們整體國人有超過就將近六成是支持覆議的我們一個很強大的一個民意基礎甚至連民眾黨跟國民黨的支持者也有將近一半是支持覆議的那針對這個覆議案院長有信心嗎"},{"start":247.469,"end":270.945,"text":"所以我相信台灣是一個相當成熟的民主國家不應該有這樣的法案這樣的內容來出現所以當國人認真來審視的時候每個人都會發揮一個民主國家的主人的立場角色跟他的認知所以如果大家能夠充分的了解這個法案的內容讓大家能夠支持覆議案重新審慎的再檢查一次這絕對是未來國家進步的福氣啊"},{"start":272.268,"end":280.176,"text":"現在外面有很多我們的年輕朋友很多的我們的鄉親坐在場外也在關心我們這三天的一個情勢的變化那我想"},{"start":281.385,"end":306.849,"text":"聽說白天在撈麥菜又下雨了我們的鄉親這麼多來自全台各地的鄉親淋著雨他們關心台灣的民主被沒收在這邊消失了真的真的讓我們非常的憂心聽到外面的喇叭聲跟外面的打雷聲實在是餘心非常不忍我們何不在這裡好好的討論就可以不用這樣讓大家這麼辛苦"},{"start":307.549,"end":334.182,"text":"這是我們做得到的只要通過覆議案我們就回到立法院來討論我們做得到的對大院做得到的院長那萬一李佰武的覆議案沒有通過那院長個人後續有什麼樣的處理的一個方式依照憲法的規定他只寫到必須接受這樣的這個法案這樣的法律案我沒有其他的選項但是繼續下去我們還可以尋求其他的憲法上的救濟"},{"start":337.482,"end":357.535,"text":"從中國流亡作家袁弘明教授從今年2月就有一個事情國台辦針對一個佔領台灣立法院制高點的一個統戰戰略的要點其中一點就是要透過特定人士包含我們的韓國瑜院長、傅坤祺還有國民黨立法院的黨團就是要運用議會改革的名義"},{"start":358.195,"end":360.136,"text":"我希望國內重要的政治工作的人物"},{"start":383.086,"end":383.627,"text":"有機可循啊!院長!"},{"start":407.602,"end":433.852,"text":"所以我們要更加強我們內心自我的防衛跟對台灣民主的信念那針對這個部分請教院長我想這個中共的文攻武嚇一直不斷包含這個軍機、潛艇也不斷在我們這個四周在出沒那針對這部分我們國安黨會到底有沒有掌握類似的一個相關情資讓我們的國人能夠安心"},{"start":435.143,"end":449.93,"text":"這個我們昨天都說明過了,無論是潛艇或是民航機都在我們掌控當中,沒有發生任何的意外跟危險的可能。對,那我們也要持續注意一下啦吼。那,民進黨我想這個我們,民進黨這次的這個"},{"start":453.544,"end":466.214,"text":"我會沒有過半當然對我們行政團隊是一個很大的挑戰那過去我們在阿扁總統的時期也遭遇過這個嘲笑也帶一個困境那當然依我個人來講我覺得國會擴權是國民黨跟民眾黨的第一步"},{"start":470.057,"end":494.916,"text":"後續他們針對所謂一個財化法的一個劃分甚至提出許多的淺坑法案這個才是後面他們的目的那針對這個部分其實我們有許多的我們的縣市首長甚至我們的鄉鎮長這幾天也很憂慮說會不會因為這樣子的一個淺坑法案一個不公平的一個財化法造成我們整個一個地方公共建設推動的一個受阻甚至這個預算的被剝奪"},{"start":496.907,"end":522.307,"text":"謝謝委員關心財化法我覺得這個是接的下來兩院之間要好好來研商的如何保存中央政府的財政的彈性跟能力有辦法在任何天災地變或是長期的計畫裡面持續對地方做更多的挹注在這個前提底下讓地方能夠在財政的能力上也能夠有所的改善這是可以談的但這絕對不是用"},{"start":524.053,"end":524.253,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":548.169,"end":567.585,"text":"那我相信我們主委院長也會針對像譬如說像屏東縣我們需要的交通建設、產業建設、文化建設種種之類的我們會請各部會來盤點,我們用照起剛照不好來我們把一個我們要的建設一樣一樣把它處理好照程序來進行,是不是應該有這樣的一個邏輯思考?"},{"start":569.346,"end":594.438,"text":"國家的體制以及國家的財政已經有相當健全的機制可循我希望都透過這樣的機制讓中央可以對地方多多補助地方能夠多支持中央那我們在橫憑均衡台灣在地希望的這種理念底下把不好的比較需要的把它提升起來那比較好的我們暫時能夠維持出現在的發展能力就好這樣子才能夠把台灣整個提升上來這是我們的想法"},{"start":594.878,"end":623.335,"text":"是在這邊我們也是期待我們的內閣的我們的所有的部會首長不要因為這個立委會拍桌子會大聲就拖累到錢這是不合理的啦不可能這要大聲講出來我們的北省都會支持那最後我想不一定要出力啦是我們是我們在地方建設上面我們共同來努力來打拼那我想最後一個針對這個覆議案如果不受支持那我們"},{"start":624.076,"end":624.996,"text":"謝謝徐富癸委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"154103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154103","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee1420841ae9a3c88efdcc8204f6a4417db433867d048431dc73585c42620c1be23675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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過程要見識這個嘛,對不對?我們先不談,是不是?所知齁,所知是一個不確定概念,應該我們親眼看到、親耳聽到的,我們才知道這是有真偽的問題。所知的是一個認知的一個差距,這個涉及到主觀的一個排化。你先聽一下,是不是明確、不明確,等一下我會告訴你嘛。"},{"start":579.707,"end":606.114,"text":"我先問你,藐視國會罪,就這個條文所述名的是指就所致之重要關係事項為稀為陳述是構成要件,對不對?他真的是這樣寫的是一個構成要件。好,你先聽,看一下哈。中華民國刑法"},{"start":607.079,"end":632.119,"text":"明國二十三年明國二十三年的隱匿這兩個字因為這裡面你們剛才的理由都有提到隱匿好,中華民國刑法明國二十三年十月三十一號制定的就已經寫重要關係之事項為什麼這已經超過多少年了我們沒辦法再等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":633.504,"end":633.524,"text":"謝謝委員時間"}]}},{"id":"154102","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154102","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee142703b01cac183e93cc8204f6a4417db433867d048431dc7358db5fa9ab833ea3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"14:52:19 - 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壓了這些時間,國會改革就會變掉,因為它就沒有辦法被充分討論。當沒有被充分討論,它沒有被社會大眾所接受,那麼它就是一個失敗的國會改革。"},{"start":590.393,"end":618.501,"text":"所以我們不希望說拿著國會改革的大旗可是卻在做立法院擴權的事甚至讓民眾會覺得有白色恐怖對於立法院當今天收到公文的時候他要不要來啊我會被罰我會不會被行政處分或是我會被刑法來做拘役甚至做徒刑的一個判定"},{"start":619.94,"end":620.02,"text":"謝謝陳亭薇"}]}},{"id":"154101","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154101","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee14224627c835ad8adb2c8204f6a4417db435fc17cfb183f265452c7019b845b5da65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"14:41:22 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61,"end":205.066,"text":"我們現在針對復議理由來就教院長憲法徵修條文第三條第二項第二款故規定說行政院得提出復議就自愛難行的法案但是我們現在看您的復議理由針對這個我們的議事程序"},{"start":206.212,"end":223.965,"text":"你認為說,立法院的職權行使法的修正的審議程序不符民主原則,具有明顯重大的瑕疵,所以基於憲政機關依法行政的立場,執行上極有摯愛。本席要請問院長,你有參與立法院的立法程序嗎?"},{"start":225.811,"end":243.169,"text":"你簡單回答有還沒有有所有的立法委員都參與過這個程序你沒有參與所以在這個法案在司法法制委員會總共開了一次的專報三次的公聽會一次的黨團協商以及我們的韓院長多次的協商會議"},{"start":244.901,"end":247.043,"text":"三百位法學專家也都有這樣的疑慮"},{"start":262.375,"end":278.225,"text":"請問議事程序是哪一條違反議事規則?您能夠具體說明嗎?報告委員,早上在您之前12個委員當中有好幾位都提出所有審查的程序,我們已經一一的說明了。哪一條違反立法院的議事規則?有沒有?"},{"start":279.045,"end":292.672,"text":"就最後那幾天的在這裡的討論大院議場裡面的討論以及在表決的過程在場人數跟表決人數不同這個就是嚴重的瑕疵我已經事實講出來了我事實講出來了表決的過程在場人數跟表決人數不同這不是重大瑕疵嗎"},{"start":305.74,"end":317.114,"text":"有沒有內容的討論有沒有參與專報有沒有參與公聽會以及我們委員會的協商院會的協商的討論過程行政院完全沒有參與"},{"start":318.308,"end":336.234,"text":"那我怎麼會知道三場公聽會的事情呢?立法院的議事過程有重大瑕疵嗎?有你有調查嗎?有你有調查嗎?有了解有了解,你沒有調查嗎?你沒有權力調查嗎?我不能來調查委員,我跟委員不一樣你沒有權力調查,你也講說你不能調查"},{"start":337.054,"end":355.326,"text":"我告訴你依照大法官會議解釋第342號理由書依照民主憲政國家的通例國家的立法權屬於國會國會行使立法權的程序與不抵觸憲法的範圍內得以其自行訂定的議事規則為之"},{"start":357.227,"end":357.987,"text":"所以要不抵觸憲法"},{"start":377.975,"end":397.43,"text":"四至三四二號的解釋文我再念給你聽雖然法律案這立法程序有不帶調查事實即可認定為抵觸卸法以及有違反法律成立基本規定的明顯重大瑕疵者就您提出的覆理有說認為說這個有明顯重大瑕疵但是理由裡面有講"},{"start":398.331,"end":422.323,"text":"事先機關要宣告無效必須是他的瑕疵要達到足以影響法律成立的重大程序如上有爭議上有待調查者極非明顯剛才您告訴我你沒有權利調查所以你如何認定說這個是一個明顯重大的瑕疵有這個抵觸憲法"},{"start":423.482,"end":443.036,"text":"我沒有調查是因為憲法讓我沒有調查立法院的選擇啊所以我依照憲法這個我沒有錯事實的調查事現機關都要受到限制而應回歸國會國會自律的這個這樣的原則來解決但是我們很遺憾的看到今天行政院的副營"},{"start":444.185,"end":472.904,"text":"對於國會行使立法權如何進行他的議事程序,屬於我們國會自立的範疇,四線機關都要基於權力分立的原則,而認為他對此等事項的審查要受到限制。所以司法院的大法官都認為不能介入國會自立事項,但是行政院卻超越大法官欲以指責立法院的議事程序。行政院顯然不適格啊!"},{"start":473.78,"end":487.274,"text":"大法官顯然不會接受抵觸憲法的任何法律案所以立法院也要有自己的節制啊所以立法院要節制啊沒有動請大法官解釋"},{"start":494.722,"end":522.597,"text":"復不復二一規則屬於我們的自律事項行政院可以來指指點點所以行政院您根本就是已經違反三權分立的原則了您比司法院還大所以院長我要告訴你這個復議案真的非常的不適格接下來我們再看行政院提出的復議理由認為總統進行國情報告是違反憲法"},{"start":523.447,"end":551.588,"text":"再一次彰顯行政院與大法官之拘我想您認為行政院可以超越司法院來代表大法官解釋我想請問院長很簡單的問題如果立法院邀請總統來立法院進行國情報告總統可以拒絕嗎?總統可以決定可以拒絕嗎?回答可或不可嗎?我不能對總統回答但是總統可以決定應立法院之邀來不來總統可以決定有沒有義務?"},{"start":553.07,"end":566.898,"text":"憲法上規定是的是總統可以決定有沒有義務沒有義務沒有義務這是你的回答所以院長誠懇的告訴你你根本不了解憲法本席真的存疑阿"},{"start":567.628,"end":587.183,"text":"依照中華民國憲法徵修條文第二條第四項國家安全大政方針屬於總統的職權總統依照我們立法院職權行使法的規定他必須就立法院每年集會時聽取向立法院來做國情報告立法院可以邀請他來他可以來總統可以來"},{"start":592.047,"end":614.682,"text":"他可以來所以照相關的規定他就是必須來所以你在今天還跟我講說他沒有義務來那你有在尊重立法院嗎立法院邀請他總統可以不來啊他可以他可以決定他可以不尊重民意啊他可以決定在民主國的原理之下總統會充分尊重立法院但是他可以決定你根本沒有尊重憲法嘛"},{"start":619.411,"end":619.711,"text":"謝謝林思銘委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"154098","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154098","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee1422afc04fdaae6f2bcc8204f6a4417db43b6ce992a2a96250d4d86489bec5fdf205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:44:42 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院長行政特權有哪些啊我想總統啦或者行政長官他有一些行政上的特權這個是受到一些保障的"},{"start":120.936,"end":142.596,"text":"有受到保障嘛對不對所以說行政首長他可能對於干涉到行政的部門的有效運作有決定不予公開的權利那這個叫做行政特權那585號講得很清楚喔如果遇到行政特權那院長你幹嘛立法院侵害到你的行政特權的時候585號有講要怎麼做"},{"start":143.823,"end":159.872,"text":"所以就是要維護五院體制行政歸行政、立法歸立法、監察歸監察、司法歸監察對,一定會說答案啦五院體制,就是說如果今天立法院調查權和你的院長、你的裁量、你的行政特權太崩"},{"start":161.172,"end":185.407,"text":"這個時候,第一,大法官解釋講得很清楚,立法院跟其他國家機關在你行政的一合理的途徑,協商解決。協商解決啦,就是一定要跟我們的韓院長協商。啊,如果協商出來,要罵倒,要罵倒形成答案,這個時候要怎麼辦?"},{"start":186.992,"end":210.929,"text":"吳鮑威號我們有說喔有司法機關審理解決有沒有有是吳鮑威號都講了這個好 那我們這一次國民黨跟民眾黨所訂的這一套的立法院的這個調查權有講到這些嗎有任何文字講到這些嗎沒有沒有嘛 他的調查權在47條嘛"},{"start":213.015,"end":239.91,"text":"調查權第四十七條說調查委員會或調查專案小組會行使調查權得要求政府機關部隊法人團體社會上有關係之人物之人員與五日內提供資料然後以及可以傳喚他們來然後就是這個是四十七條是調閱文件那還有另外的就是傳喚人沒有講到萬一權力產生衝突的時候"},{"start":241.109,"end":265.269,"text":"要怎麼來解決?這是不是一個問題?對,鄭義智解決是沒有去做這樣的一個處理,所以這個行使法對這樣是...是一個...如果這樣的這一部法律,他沒有處理...對,就違背了這個585的意旨嘛。所以就很清楚,是讓大家法律人啊,我們說什麼的,這裡都是法律人。一看而知,這個修法就違憲。"},{"start":266.89,"end":288.007,"text":"這個修法就是沒打整個585號他要上半段他只要擷取他要的部分要的部分585號有講到說有部分的調查權他就說喔好這個好這個我要權利我要義務我不要立法委員擴權要大家有管理負擔義務都不要他們只敢講585"},{"start":289.744,"end":292.908,"text":"而且585這部分是限那個調閱權他這個是把那個調查權進行他是把調閱權進行那調查權有沒有限制有沒有他的限制"},{"start":301.677,"end":311.543,"text":"這個調查權是有限制的,585號解釋,還有那個325,還有729號解釋,就有這樣的,而且是限制調查權,並不是在調查權729號是講跟檢察官的一個文件的調閱嘛,325號更精彩咩,325號齁,現在國民黨齁,跟黃國昌都不敢講啦"},{"start":323.103,"end":342.536,"text":"黃國昌把他用那個圖卡在那裡說什麼時候把人民會科與圖形事實上就是有科與圖形阿他們本來的法案是有的餒是我們在審理的過程引擎丟起來換一丟因為他怕看到外面清涼的人大家來這裡他們會怕所以他們才轉換我們先來討論325號解釋325號解釋他說"},{"start":350.51,"end":369.525,"text":"調查權應該是屬於監察院對不對縱使是監察院的調查權但是如果是國家機關獨立行使職權受憲法的保障第一個如司法機關審理案件所表示的法律見解第二個考試機關對於應考人員成績的評定"},{"start":372.557,"end":392.614,"text":"第三,監察委員的彈劾或糾正的判斷或訴訟案件在判決確定前的偵查作為,監察院對於行使調查權本受有限制,基於同一理由,立法院的調閱文件亦同受限制。有沒有這樣的文字?有"},{"start":393.857,"end":414.924,"text":"連監察院的調查權都不可以侵害到行政特權或者是司法的一個專業的判斷這就是那個到我可以解釋就是要注意到其實那個調查權要注意權力分立的原則彼此要有彼此尊重憲法的權力分立嘛要有權力分立就是監察院的調查權一樣要有受到這些限制喔但是我們所訂出來的"},{"start":416.986,"end":433.911,"text":"我們所訂出來的這個法案他說我們四十七條的調閱文件必要時還可以要求司法機關或監察機關就在偵查中的案件他們可以因序名理由並提供副本"},{"start":439.515,"end":465.261,"text":"好,認證,我這樣說應該,這樣有違憲嗎?這大剌剌違憲的文字,這樣就法案,有一個是慕尼黑的博士,有一個康乃爾的博士,都捏出來了,都違憲到這樣,這樣要叫我們被誰要買單,叫我們一直說裡面有民進黨的條文,我們民進黨裡面他們又通過的條文都是那種無關緊要程序性的問題,"},{"start":467.302,"end":478.031,"text":"關鍵的二十五條關鍵的四十七條關鍵的五十條之一關鍵的五十條之一到那些都是他們的版本這都是他們違憲的版本部長你說明一下給我整理一下思緒"},{"start":486.727,"end":508.62,"text":"這個內容的這個部分齁在整個一個一個調查權這形式他是把他列入到第八章齁這整個一個就是新增的一個條文就是完全違反了585號解釋的一個意旨一個意旨而且這違反到違反585跟325啦325那我們再來聊一下啦齁我剛才忽然間沒想到想不出來我忘記瞬間忘記"},{"start":510.134,"end":537.516,"text":"我們在講他們說你有保密義務嘛五十條也有規定保密義務所以涉及到國防跟外交這個屬於保密義務的部分如果你在行使調查權的時候政府機關我要說這個是屬於機密這個是屬於機密所以政府機關可以說這個我機密我拒絕回答拒絕回答勒要"},{"start":538.257,"end":556.377,"text":"要經過那個主席同意是不是而且還有那個裁法的一個問題還有裁法要主席同意啊主席不同意怎麼辦所以這部分就陷入一個兩難問題所以這個反而是會讓整個一個政府機關自來難行好那如果他拒絕回答我們可以馬上回到了對他的一個法則就是可以把他移送"},{"start":557.398,"end":559.4,"text":"這一個公務人員為了守護國家機密他可能面對這一次所通過的藐視國會然後被判刑責公務員如果被判刑責會怎樣"},{"start":585.68,"end":613.773,"text":"會不會被剝奪公務員資格對就被剝奪了會被剝奪公務員資格他公務員就沒了我再講那如果立法委員在行使調查權的時候把這個機密講出來這部分在行使法並沒有規範他那個救責的機制他沒有救責嗎他只有說有保密的方式但是沒有調查人員這個保密的違反的話就沒有救責的機制對我存三十秒你給我說過了如果立法委員一說出來好縱使我們覺得很可惡你怎麼講出來我們要把他起訴"},{"start":615.049,"end":635.862,"text":"他在法院的時候還會講什麼?不好意思!我有言論免責權!這是憲法給我的權利!你不可以判我!這是我的言論免責權!你不可以判我!他就這樣說!縱使耶!他是在院外講沒有言論免責權!他被判刑!他不能像胡坤智這樣!一邊關一邊坐在外面!"},{"start":639.663,"end":640.264,"text":"謝謝蔡依"}]}},{"id":"154097","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154097","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee142a8fff72b5cf0e378c8204f6a4417db43b6ce992a2a96250d813b1c95fbd1753e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:33:14 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法案就是要回歸 沒錯回歸憲政體制 健全政府運作 恢復立法院原有的職責剛剛已經講了大法官釋憲585號已經講過了好接著粉絲粉絲要請教 585號有明文條文的憲制"},{"start":221.872,"end":228.234,"text":"好 本席請教民進黨我要請教院長院長 我 我要抗議我的時間請暫停因為我沒有問 那就一直答學位沒有問題 麻煩請那個曾部長就不要搶答好不好 謝謝謝謝院長欸 剛剛沒有暫停欸這時間要給我好的 那我們現在暫停10秒鐘補補好嗎好那等一下大概差10秒"},{"start":251.755,"end":251.875,"text":"請問院長,您"},{"start":257.964,"end":258.004,"text":"﹚徐欣瑩"},{"start":288.824,"end":313.07,"text":"權力導致腐敗,絕對的權力導致絕對的腐敗。所以希望民進黨的執政團隊不要換了位子就換了腦袋,要記取你們的名字,民主進步。所以我們希望一個連門而且清廉的一個政府,"},{"start":313.997,"end":321.301,"text":"報告委員 我沒有反對國會改革我也沒有不承認調查權但是我們五院的體制監察院有監察院的職權"},{"start":334.309,"end":341.731,"text":"本席現在講的是立法院的調查權接下來本席要討論行政院的復議案在復議案的內容有提出一些錯誤的認知與見解本席希望提出來請院長還有全國民眾來審酌首先復議案有特別提到指責立法院的議事程序"},{"start":365.098,"end":389.189,"text":"說這個立法院的議事程序有致愛難行之處對於立法院的議事程序是否合乎憲政的精神與體制這個應該是國會自律的範圍那就算有發生重大爭議也應該是大法官經過憲法的這個判決來釐清爭議那怎麼會變成行政院來這個"},{"start":391.91,"end":394.512,"text":"我還沒問你,第二個你們也提到舉手表決"},{"start":419.108,"end":431.455,"text":"舉手表決是議事規則明定的合法表決方法竟然也可以成為復議的理由所以未來行政院到立法院"},{"start":434.296,"end":435.036,"text":"沒有辦法這樣回答"},{"start":453.188,"end":453.308,"text":"我們在這邊強調"},{"start":481.958,"end":508.927,"text":"呃先請教院長您這次組閣整個過程中有沒有跟總統討論跟報告有或沒有有有嗎所以我們全國人民都知道總統才是整個國政的決策者所有的重要人事提名重大政務決策都是總統的意志啊所以總統國情報告總不能總統演說完就走吧所以在整個的國會改革內容裡面特別提到這個總統"},{"start":513.505,"end":529.61,"text":"等於是立法委員有不明瞭之處提出問題也非質詢嘛所以再加上賴清德總統在選前為什麼選後跟選前對民眾的承諾就不一致了呢這點行政院"},{"start":530.49,"end":543.114,"text":"以及賴總統一定要對全國人民有所表示而且要等於是為什麼選前選後兩樣情那這個我不在這裡來講再來因為時間的關係最後我們還有針對人事同意權的部分人事同意權的行使覆議案的內容也是非常的荒謬"},{"start":556.345,"end":581.9,"text":"人事同意權本席想請教這個院長如果有一個大公司他的高階主管他要聘用結果呢有人用虛偽的學歷經歷又不告知有犯罪前科他詐騙取得了工作聘書院長同意這樣嗎就不要聘他啊他們就說對就是這樣那不能把他移送嗎"},{"start":582.64,"end":584.342,"text":"所以我們都不用防範一個國家這麼重要的人士包含監察委員、包含考試委員、包含大法官"},{"start":597.585,"end":600.106,"text":"再說一次,任何政治工作者、虛偽不實的回答都是自己的人格自殺"},{"start":629.539,"end":652.56,"text":"國會改革法案可以說是對於過去八年行政專制的反撲還有民眾許多的疑慮對於政府的失能以及諸多的弊端民眾都非常深切的想了解這種情況的反撲所以最後本席請教院長院長我還有十秒如果覆議案被否決總統會不會依憲法"},{"start":657.216,"end":663.502,"text":"謝謝徐委員那4秒鐘已經補給您了"}]}},{"id":"154096","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154096","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee142662b811285ad4b8ec8204f6a4417db43b6ce992a2a96250dc97daf1775de64d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:22:14 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那吳宗憲當然沒有交代,可是後來改口,他說他指的是立法完成後會產生判決跟判例,那透過這些判決跟判例就可以回去解釋什麼叫做反質詢。那用白話文講的就是,我先判了再說,你先讓我罰罰看,你就知道以後怎麼樣才會被罰。"},{"start":440.982,"end":459.664,"text":"那這種立法的態度跟法律的素養實在是令人嘆為觀止就如同我舉例來講我們叫委員會我們在審議黃牛票的態樣跟定義我們就花了很多的精神跟體力去好好的討論因為我有定義清楚你可以去定義說什麼樣叫做賣黃牛票"},{"start":460.845,"end":460.905,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":481.477,"end":501.013,"text":"那我們再來看看最新的民調怎麼看這次的覆議案根據中華亞太基因交流協會15日公布的民調有高達61.4的民調支持覆議要求立法院要重新討論法案值得注意的是即便國民黨跟民眾黨的支持者也有大約4成人支持覆議"},{"start":501.713,"end":530.553,"text":"那就連臺灣民意基金會前天公布的調查也有過半的民眾支持行政院的覆議另外這兩份的民調中我們都可以看見有超過半數的民眾不清楚法案的內容就有學者分析這是因為修法的過程太過倉促以至於很多民眾對於修法後的影響也不是了解所以我們大家都希望透過這一次的覆議可以更清楚知道修法的正義點在哪裡那院長想請教你怎麼看"},{"start":531.113,"end":551.714,"text":"這些民調的顯示另外今天開始到週五的復議的投票日公民團體再度號召很多民眾在立法院外他們希望表達他們反對擴權惡法的訴求所以院長請問你有什麼要話要傳達給異場外的青年朋友們也要傳達給台灣各地的國人"},{"start":554.893,"end":579.346,"text":"對於正反雙方的群眾來表達聲音其實在這種天候底下我真的於心不忍如果我們在這裡可以合理公開的這樣討論讓它成為一個回到大院繼續可以重新審視機會的一個條文讓透過民主的程序共同來維護就可以不需要這樣子辛苦大家我過去到現在到今天我的心情是完全一樣的"},{"start":580.231,"end":580.611,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":596.098,"end":596.318,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":618.206,"end":619.406,"text":"我相信每個委員都會勇敢的面對自己跟面對歷史"},{"start":654.676,"end":654.816,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154095","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154095","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee1429a60c23f5112d35dc8204f6a4417db43b6ce992a2a96250d6f9539cac4b131f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:11:18 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院長好在我們整個的國會改革法案提出之後啊真的充滿了太多的錯假消息我記得那時候總諮詢我就告訴你欸 剛才諮詢就有錯假消息然後我現在又要告訴你剛才李博弈委員又有錯假消息因為剛剛他特別提到的就說欸 我們有很多國防外交上面的機密"},{"start":52.492,"end":70.877,"text":"如果都可以這樣子調查權,然後我們的公務人員,比如說我們國防部人員,他們都要這樣子一五一十地回答,這不是都適合命嗎?那我在這邊,剛才其實我非常遺憾的,我們的國防部長顧立雄部長其實他也是大律師,"},{"start":71.937,"end":89.634,"text":"我不曉得他有沒有仔細看過這個相關的修法我在這邊就是有必要要破除錯假消息第52條非常清楚的這個條文如果院長現在手上可以趕快翻"},{"start":91.141,"end":105.973,"text":"第五十二條 調查、調閱報告書及意見處理未提出之前這些八八八都有保密的責任而且特別講到只有涉及外交、國防及其他依法應蓋秘密事項者"},{"start":106.974,"end":129.561,"text":"於調查調閱報告及處理意見提出之後,原依依相關規定去保密。這是第五條,第五十二條清清楚楚的規定,也就是我們即便經過調查之後,但是涉及到國防外交及相關的一些法律,應該要保密還是要保密。好,再來看第五十九條之二,"},{"start":131.241,"end":150.665,"text":"第五十九條之五也是一樣說出席的這個委員當然應該要這個要好好的來報告據實報告但是只要牽涉到國防外交相關的法令他也是有權利來保守秘密的"},{"start":151.104,"end":172.552,"text":"好所以我要講說在整個的法條的設計裡面我們希望在國會能夠有更強的監督權但是相關的國防外交以及其他法令規定的秘密在這裡面也有相當的保全的措施所以呢這些錯假消息真的不要再以訛傳訛"},{"start":174.209,"end":174.85,"text":"一句話就可以回答委員"},{"start":197.602,"end":198.943,"text":"星期五我們就要對覆議案做出表決"},{"start":226.38,"end":230.425,"text":"你有信心覆議案能夠通過嗎?我很珍惜委員這一票"},{"start":231.581,"end":232.141,"text":"憲法的規定讓我沒有選擇"},{"start":261.823,"end":279.595,"text":"你會請辭嗎?直接講啊。所以你不會請辭齁。但是呢,院長,你從事政治工作這麼久齁,其實也都知道,其實做一個覆議案它是一個非常大的一個政治動作。"},{"start":279.855,"end":296.471,"text":"他是憲法裡面的秩序跟設計沒有錯我講過就是不管是覆議也好或釋憲也好他都是我們在憲政體制裡面可以採取的相關的這個程序但是呢他在政治上是非常大的一個政治動作"},{"start":297.452,"end":324.512,"text":"那基本上我們為什麼在講說要有所謂的政治責任呢所以我覺得院長輕易的去開啟當然我相信你也是身不由己啦那麼輕易的開啟去做這個復議的動作事實上在政治責任上其實應該要負起責任的好因為我的時間比較有限我想給大家看一個影片給院長看一個影片"},{"start":339.711,"end":363.262,"text":"這個就是剛才李博義委員也特別詢問到的因為按照他的所講法說這邊部分被遮蔽可是我想在這個備詢台上兩位都當過立法委員那在立法院裡面我們在調閱文件的時候那看到像這樣像這樣可以繼續播放這個影片"},{"start":366.976,"end":372.516,"text":"這個影片幾乎百分之九十五以上吧全部都被槓掉"},{"start":374.332,"end":398.246,"text":"所以對於一個立法委員要行使他的職權想要來了解一個數位身份證花了公帑十四億但是呢卻在不同的行政院長的任內這個是賴清德當時擔任行政院長推動可是到了蘇貞昌當院長的時候呢就把他凍結暫停"},{"start":399.767,"end":428.015,"text":"那花了十四億不打緊因為未來還要每年花六千多萬去做維護那麼所以在立法院裡面那些委員會是依法來成立了這個調查委員會那麼看到的又是這樣的資料所以如果今天我們在國會改革上面我們沒有辦法強化一些我們國會監督的功能"},{"start":428.888,"end":439.487,"text":"我們很有可能每一次成立調查委員會最後就是這樣啊就跟過去之前在上一屆有關疫苗採購的時候看到的也是這樣"},{"start":441.198,"end":460.937,"text":"所以這讓很多的民眾看到之後他會以為說你們今天是擴權你們本來就有原來的一些你們的工具你們本來就有一些你們的這個職權可以行使但是我們要告訴當我們依現在的制度去行使的時候我們調到資料就是這樣子"},{"start":461.978,"end":463.999,"text":"報告委員你這個部分的資料是怎麼出來的我不知道"},{"start":481.667,"end":481.967,"text":"若按照"},{"start":503.943,"end":504.183,"text":"王鴻薇議員"},{"start":523.936,"end":524.136,"text":"王鴻薇"},{"start":543.146,"end":569.314,"text":"但是呢我願意把那個游英龍老師那我想因為他他這個臺灣民意基金會不管他做出來的民調是有利於我們或者不利於我們其實基本上我都會引以一定的尊重所以在臺灣民意基金會呢做出來的最新民調有51%支持行政院提出覆議案我願意徵證但是他這裡面有很多的子項目他的子項目可以看到"},{"start":570.474,"end":574.319,"text":"雖然有51%支持提出覆議案,但是以立法院職權行使法及刑法增訂裡面,這些包含聽證會、藐視國會罪和同意權的行使,贊成的都超過五成。"},{"start":591.838,"end":615.773,"text":"贊成的超過五成他贊成你們提復議但是他也贊成立法院的相關的法令的增訂而且所有每一項贊成的比例都高於不贊成的比例所以我要講到就是說當院長行政院提出復議的時候有真的去"},{"start":617.276,"end":638.346,"text":"新聽還有去接近民意嗎?如果在這一個多月來府院黨窮盡一切的力量去污名化國會改革的法案去阻擋國會改革的法案用盡一切力量但是以由於這個老師所做出來的民調仍然是這樣我覺得行政院還是要去參考好不好?我們沒有污名化國會改革我也支持國會改革但重要的是它可以建設自己"},{"start":646.448,"end":646.569,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154094","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee1420071ff9ed33284bbc8204f6a4417db43b6ce992a2a96250dd81ee1710aea013d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:00:25 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院長"},{"start":184.994,"end":204.04,"text":"你前面講過的我就不再重複了我先做點歸納但是我接下來要問院長您當過行政院長當過立法院長對不對沒有這次的覆議案你說關於執行權聽證權的行使有侵害人權之餘嗎這是你們的一個覆議的理由嗎對不對沒錯吧謝謝你點頭"},{"start":207.85,"end":228.686,"text":"所以我有些案例來比較一下民進黨在行政部門怎麼來去對人權的態度是什麼這個案子跟我接下來問的立法院聽證調查有關希望你不要又跟我講一句說這不在覆議案的範圍之內來迴避問答希望啦我想請教您根據警政署的統計"},{"start":230.356,"end":249.52,"text":"明強政府任內從2016年到2024年1月30號根據涉違法第63條第一項第五款也就是散佈謠言足以影響公共安寧者警察機關共移送多少案件你一定不會知道啦我不會為難你告訴你680件680件放心啦我說過後面有關啦"},{"start":256.78,"end":273.108,"text":"請問院長680件有多少件被法院裁罰多少件不裁罰你一定不知道我直接告訴你只有2乘3150件裁罰7乘7530件不裁罰國內改革法案生效了沒有請問院長"},{"start":274.71,"end":287.203,"text":"這一波的修法生效了沒有?所以我們才提出復議啊對還沒嘛 對不對所以引起目前沒有任何民眾按照所謂的聽證調查來這邊請求協助調查或出席聽證嘛沒有嘛"},{"start":289.926,"end":291.147,"text":"民政黨政府就是恐懼的總和"},{"start":315.885,"end":325.713,"text":"680個案子有500個案子法院不裁罰你明記哪一句話說了算把人民用社委法來移送你就是一個恐懼的政府接下來我要跟你講我想請問齁這個國會改革還沒生效"},{"start":331.141,"end":356.906,"text":"所以也沒有人被要求協助調查跟隨的來出席聽證目前還沒有案例但是在你偉大的名將執政之下用五百萬民眾遭到行政院跟政府來去濫權的徵訊、偵辦、問話被司法權裁定為不法請問這算不算你偉大的院長你口中的侵犯人權呢?"},{"start":358.052,"end":363.701,"text":"算不算?謝謝你有司法權的救濟!我感謝你!你正開題!我只要到這邊我本來還沒打算問到這一題你先出來了有司法權的救濟啊虧你講的粗口"},{"start":374.329,"end":399.208,"text":"今天說謊官員按照這次的刑法修訂是誰來審判說謊官員的罪責你一直說說謊官員那到底誰是說謊官員我跟你講誰來判嘛不是你判不是我判嗎法院判嗎一個委員提案就是你說的司法救濟謝謝卓榮潘你打理了卓榮潘你跟我講司法救濟我告訴你現在就是司法審判第二個聽訊調查來沒關係下一題了不用緊張"},{"start":404.212,"end":432.395,"text":"聽證調查你講司法救濟嘛聽證調查在多重門檻之下到最後如果人民不服一樣是行政法院救濟所以一樣有司法救濟謝謝左翁派你打臉自己但是我要跟你講下一個齁即便是謠言也要受到言論自由的保護所以社委法第63條第一項第五款散佈謠言的處罰要把它刪掉啊院長你認不認同這樣的修法理由"},{"start":433.933,"end":434.293,"text":"所以你不認同嗎?"},{"start":444.642,"end":463.776,"text":"三個字結束嘛!你認同三部謠言嗎?拜託!我豈敢認同三部謠言!但是不好意思啊!大家停!2013年民進黨蕭美琴現在副總統、潘文威現在的秘書長、林佳榮現在的部長、管碧玲現在的主委、李基麗的監察院秘書長、陳其邁市長、黃偉哲市長提案刪除"},{"start":467.899,"end":487.038,"text":"所謂的社委法六十三條一項五款它的立法理由就是即使是謠言亦應收到言論自由之保護你直接一刀砍死所有同黨同志院長這樣不好吧?都是他們過去犯蠢嗎?這些你的過去坐在台上隔緣犯蠢嗎?"},{"start":488.74,"end":503.515,"text":"沒有通過啊很好啊來我要告訴你下一個我要問你沒有我告訴你我告訴你有沒有通過有沒有通過至少剛剛從你的嘴巴說出來這些人飯蠢還提案呢我要跟你講我下一個要問你別緊張我下一個問你好"},{"start":505.626,"end":535.075,"text":"民進黨這樣提案的原因很簡單啦他就是不滿政府查人民水表啦才會這樣提案嘛所以他覺得說政府用涉違法前置人民的言論自由不該才提案修法廢除涉違法六三一項五款嘛那我想請問你齁照這種邏輯齁按涉違法六三一項五款齁來去所謂的來去偵辦人民移送的案件齁你覺得是馬政府多還是蔡政府多請部長說明一下來部長"},{"start":537.049,"end":564.408,"text":"這部分我沒有統計的一個資料我跟警政署所知警政署說他沒有一百零四年以前的資料但是瘋傳們有介入過一新聞因為我在總務府當過副秘書長我也略有所知按照警政署司法院監察院查核資料我看到的資料2011年到2015年因為前面我也沒有五年資料違反社會法六十三條的移送件數你知道是移送多少件嗎"},{"start":565.404,"end":573.968,"text":"我直接告訴你32件平均6.4件你要去扯別的東西不在你覆議範圍內那沒關係按照蔡政府蔡政府2014年2016到2023年這8年673件平均84.1件我回歸覆議案的討論沒關係啊我要就是回歸你覆議案啊"},{"start":593.393,"end":611.758,"text":"今天只要我們蘇貞昌院長對信公豬肉不爽就去信公豬肉就被查水表我們的陳建仁院長說這新北的謝先生買到黑心的綠色雞蛋他覺得是造謠馬上警察八小時傳人半夜徵訊"},{"start":613.76,"end":619.245,"text":"這樣的一個所謂爛拳在你眼中不是爛拳來我跟你講國會改革聽證調查的四道門檻跟你講四道門檻第一道門檻第一道門檻來來來第一道門檻"},{"start":629.329,"end":646.759,"text":"第一道門檻有所謂拒絕證言權因為時間不夠第二道門檻依依三位立委決議才能發動聽證調查第三道門檻依依三位立委決議才能夠處罰第四道門檻有司法究竟立法院這麼嚴謹門檻叫做侵犯人權你民進黨查稅表政府叫做什麼無法無天政府啊謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154092","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154092","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee1422715562f89c4054ec8204f6a4417db433eeccacc55ca201b844353fb8ddf334f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:26:28 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剛才林副跟你說一場專報兩場委員會討論三場公聽會 裡面有兩場那剛剛吳斯堯委員的講法你也應該聽清楚啊還有四次的朝野選舉 吳斯堯委員講得很清楚啊大家都應該聽清楚啊剛才聶哲宇跟你說 行政院要接受監督你現在是太上行政院欸你是俄法對不對誰是太上行政院"},{"start":578.356,"end":606.881,"text":"你看看,憲法定名,立法院是監督制衡。當你監督制衡行政院,結果你現在指三報四,你連我們的程序都管耶!你親蒙打喔!你如果自然而行,你寫法,自然而行是針對內容對不對?憲法規定,從統到立法院的這件事情,不用學法律的人都看得懂。對,所以剛才說過了嘛,你有沒有自找嘴巴,有沒有自找嘴巴,來,我們跳到最後兩章。欸,其實啊,"},{"start":610.779,"end":620.388,"text":"一定要講,其實人民的要求很卑微,就是要真相。你貴庭對你就是民進黨一黨獨大,有多少案子,案無天日。"},{"start":622.937,"end":649.493,"text":"行政院也只是要求重新審視騰訊的延遲延遲而已。這是為什麼要國會改革?這是為什麼要國會改革?這個要官員的維持正規部分有監察院來處理,若判罪的話有司法、有司法檢調機關來處理。所以國會要改革,這個民進黨欸我跟你講台灣人民最認真管啦,他知道你行政權不希望陽光射進來,把立案掀開"},{"start":651.281,"end":653.483,"text":"不要扣這種帽子我們支持國會改革國會改革要有效率要有立法品質"},{"start":673.058,"end":674.078,"text":"謝謝張啓楷委員"}]}},{"id":"154090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154090","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee142b7849d1cf748adadc8204f6a4417db433eeccacc55ca201bf2ef179986d190cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"10:03:39 - 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院長今天針對覆議案的部分來跟您就質詢先請教一下昨天一份最新的民調台灣民主基金會他所做短短不到一個月520賴政府上任到現在剛好一個月的時間賴總統的聲望重挫了9.8%流失等於是上任不到一個月流失近兩百萬人的支持是不是一個嚴重的警訊"},{"start":53.564,"end":62.099,"text":"我們賴卓體系一個月就讓台灣有兩百萬的人民失去信心有沒有檢討的必要我今天沒有準備這個內容"},{"start":63.971,"end":65.172,"text":"媒體在詢問您的時候會不會跟您講說要問什麼樣的議題"},{"start":91.334,"end":93.356,"text":"本席就來針對你的報告事項裡面來說,其實我很重視的是說到底"},{"start":108.767,"end":135.428,"text":"你提出來的覆議案的一個程序裡面有沒有摯愛難行之處我先請教你在開宗明義第三頁裡面就講是說民主意識程序除了多數決議決以外亦要尊重跟保護少數少數服從多數多數尊重少數這是民主的一個常規嗎沒錯那我先請教在您看過這個立院職權行使法裡面我們到底通過了幾條條文我剛剛已經"},{"start":137.145,"end":161.537,"text":"我們立院職權行使法這邊通過幾條條文?幾條條文我沒有唸,但每一條條文我可以再唸一次。不用,你不用唸一次,或者說你既然你會提出來復議案,很負責任提出來嘛本席以及我們院長在這邊高達四天完整的院會,我們通過表決,每一次的表決,還有民進黨團反復要求點名表決、記名表決,然後反復杯葛"},{"start":162.017,"end":172.946,"text":"四天完整的院會我們送到了行政院行政院竟然已經提出了覆議案代表你認為每一條你都看過你也認為說裡面有摯愛難情之處啊我現在只很簡單的請教通過幾條條文"},{"start":174.99,"end":195.231,"text":"委員非常抱歉44條條文通過44條條文裡面有幾條是民進黨黨團的版本我重視的是文字不是數字很好所以本時就跟你討論文字總共加起來那是算數問題院長來沒有問題院長你講說少數要保護尊重少數請教立法院少數是誰"},{"start":196.448,"end":223.424,"text":"少數是民眾黨跟民進黨民眾黨民進黨太好了來我們來看一下那個條文裡面版本有沒有保護跟尊重民眾黨跟民進黨來請看15支4條是按照國民黨團跟民眾黨團所提出來版本通過的所以這算不算是已經結合了多數我們看到17條是國民黨民眾黨跟民進黨的版本通過的我更印象深刻第17條的時候"},{"start":225.405,"end":226.545,"text":"我以為你誤會我的意思了"},{"start":244.89,"end":265.785,"text":"不是,你先看我們舊法條論法條這都是刪讀通過後的版本我們現在講舊法條論法條因為你在第三頁開宗明義講說大院沒有尊重沒有保護少數貴院在委員會協商沒有實質的審議跟討厭所以我們現在在講啊"},{"start":266.499,"end":275.984,"text":"我要看的是條文裡面總共通過44條,44條裡面有哪幾條是民進黨的版本?跟委員說明,是形成這個條文的過程沒有經過尊重表述。對,我說的內容是形成這個條文的過程沒有經過尊重表述。"},{"start":289.811,"end":290.912,"text":"委員長,我覺得一個行政院長那麼高的高度"},{"start":310.546,"end":325.024,"text":"會在公開的報告書上面指責說貴院並沒有實質的審議跟討論這是很嚴重的事情所以我們才會講嘛當條文通過之後到底哪一些條文是沒有我給你一個數字喔"},{"start":326.666,"end":343.125,"text":"44條裡面總共有12條實質修正是通過民進黨團的版本而裡面有4條是3個黨團共同修正動議的版本總共4條真正獨立只有國民黨團的版本通過的只有一條換言之"},{"start":344.389,"end":365.757,"text":"在這一次的修法的時候總共44條裡面真正國民黨團表決通過國民黨團動議版本只有一條有12條是民進黨團的版本這怎麼沒有尊重少數呢?委員你繼續畫錯我的狀況我們的對話就會非常的困難院長 本席現在在質詢你不用反質詢院長本席現在是就事論事就條文論條文告訴你為什麼你提出來的"},{"start":374.06,"end":374.701,"text":"三場公聽會以及高達"},{"start":394.779,"end":396.04,"text":"多次朝野協商"},{"start":409.451,"end":409.911,"text":"你沒有辦法回答問題"},{"start":437.904,"end":448.136,"text":"也沒有官員想要上來就駕,因為官員也不知道是誰主持,是不是?我第一次看到行政院長那麼孤立,然後沒有官員要上來就駕,是不是官員也不知道公聽會是誰主持?"},{"start":449.11,"end":475.685,"text":"因為你的問題不是官員能回答的啊我的問題是官員可以回答官員沒有參加公聽會即便是那官員是蔡英文政府時代的官員但是至少我們現在法務部長至少我們現在相關部會首長也都應該了解啊不然你怎麼會提出復議案啊所以現在行政院院長就直接用他的反應來告訴我們其實你提出復議案但是你沒有了解中間的審議過程但你直接就講本席直接告訴你"},{"start":477.967,"end":503.581,"text":"來公聽會一場吳宗憲委員主持兩場民進黨的召委鍾嘉斌委員主持所以換言之這些公聽會不也是經過國民黨民進黨兩黨的委員共同來協助來增訂修法的過程嗎?這樣子到底哪裡有不尊重少數以及不保護少數?來您剛剛沒有回答我的問題也不用再回答再來我請教"},{"start":505.216,"end":533.52,"text":"你第五點特別有講到人事同意權行使恐導致摯愛難行因為現在修法通過之後我們要求是期限審議不少於一個月所以你認為你們的意見是說你認為如果說沒有限制一個什麼時候一定要審理的話有可能會無限期延長有這種疑慮有這個疑慮那我請教現行法令有哪一條法令人事同意權是有限制期限的"},{"start":534.295,"end":554.633,"text":"所以現行法律是都沒有這種期限的限制那為什麼獨獨這一次要不得少於一個月就是因為過去有委員認為是說人事同意權相對來講非常的重要所以說希望有一個期限來做審議但是沒有無限延長啊可是您現在你們的講法是現行的法律都至愛難行喔"},{"start":555.313,"end":577.588,"text":"所以換言之你們現在提出來覆議的講法是連現前的法令都要推翻是這個意思嗎?法律上故意舉一個就是故意漏掉其他的本席特別跟您請教我記得兩個禮拜以前我們在這邊總實詢為提出來5月31號的時候我說NCC的委員人事同意有沒有經過您您當時怎麼回答?"},{"start":578.39,"end":579.751,"text":"我處理覆議案的事情之後我們下禮拜"},{"start":606.095,"end":628.906,"text":"最短時間你那時候講是說你總執行結束之後我說要不要兩個禮拜你說可能不用最短時間內提出新的NCC委員名單但到目前為止我不知道你是不是改口了或是說你是認為這四位NCC那如果說不是的話你怎麼會認為說現在人是在立法院呢照理講你就應該要行政院趕快再提出名單否則這不就才是真正拖延人事同意權審查權嗎你沒有送進來"},{"start":634.496,"end":662.271,"text":"所以你講的第五點所謂的無限期延長根本也不是理由因為現行的法律就沒有任何一個人事同意權是有限定期限的這就是現行法律的規定這也就是行政部門應該要尊重立法部門的部分中華是立法院的責任行政權沒有權利跟立法委員講說不要修改你連憲政體制"},{"start":667.139,"end":667.441,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷"}]}},{"id":"154089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee1423abd6118685979ffc8204f6a4417db433eeccacc55ca201be6c27912765eb29c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:51:49 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的說法,是立法院可以刑責還是法院可以刑責?"},{"start":228.187,"end":246.662,"text":"立法院不是司法機關所以我們才需要檢察官起訴才需要法院判刑嘛現在中華民國的法院有哪一個對於你剛所講的代證事實構成要件虛偽陳述是只要懷疑"},{"start":247.282,"end":247.322,"text":"委員：黃國昌"},{"start":269.565,"end":294.067,"text":"我已經回答了你的回答是什麼中華民國的法院因為懷疑就會科與刑責委員我們在講的是中華民國的立法院中華民國立法院不會科與刑責阿只有中華民國的法院會阿送去法院是但是這個懷疑送去法院就會科與刑責阿這個懷疑就是祖國的認定立法委員不是檢察官各位各位報告這會造成很大的寒蕊消夜所以起訴的不是立法委員起訴的是檢察官阿"},{"start":296.168,"end":317.876,"text":"請訴的是檢察官啊檢察官會因為懷疑就起訴嗎來請教部長但是被追究被調查被偵辦的話這對觀念是一個很大的一個危害了對你可以這樣講但你不可以說只懷疑就可以行責嘛來我們來看一下施改國事會議你們那個時候對美國聯邦法不好意思我再講話你一定要插嘴嗎"},{"start":319.056,"end":335.735,"text":"院長可不可以控制一下時間請暫停這樣子秩序沒有辦法進行院長你也可以看得出來時間暫停我都會給他們時間回答黃委員對不起時間暫停是我有請求委員讓我講一句話我有請求我不是直接的插話這是禮貌尊重沒有關係啦剛剛有直播"},{"start":336.195,"end":358.867,"text":"你到底是插話還是有請求部長有沒有針對問題回答全國人民透過直播都看得到是不是可以請院長主持一下秩序時間暫停跟黃委員報告一下跟院長報告一下也跟所有的委員報告一下全院委員會所有的詢答用疑問疑答方式進行委員與官員共同使用詢答時間那麼委員詢問完畢之後再由官員來"},{"start":363.349,"end":380.133,"text":"答覆因此請委員跟官員彼此互相尊重也請官員特別拜託不要有搶答的情況黃委員請繼續好謝謝院長來進一步請教斯卡國式法務部所提出的會議資料依照美國聯邦法18條USC1001條的規定在國會"},{"start":385.035,"end":395.504,"text":"為虛偽陳述的時候除五年以下有期徒刑來請教一下院長或部長這樣子美國法的規範依照你們的標準有沒有違反法律明確性有沒有違反正當法律程序"},{"start":396.556,"end":401.718,"text":"我現在在討論的是你的職權行使法裡面的文字違反法律明確性,不是在討論美國聯邦的法律啊!"},{"start":417.643,"end":439.938,"text":"因為他的法律構成要件跟我們寫在刑法一百四十一條之一就一模一樣嘛所以我才問你嘛依照你們行政院法務部不好意思不好意思院長這樣子我要怎麼質詢下去我問題都還沒有講完部長就要插嘴干擾我的質詢沒有關係啊我們都是法律人依法論法把事情講清楚就好了來"},{"start":441.479,"end":463.267,"text":"這個構成要件依照部長您精湛的法學素養請教一下跟我們所通過的刑法一百四十四條之一哪裏不一樣請說明哪裏不一樣我們是五權憲法的國家所以你的意思是我國是五權憲法他們是三權分立所以針對現在有關於執委陳述可與刑罪的構成要件構成要件哪裏不一樣請說明"},{"start":470.47,"end":470.991,"text":"法律要件不明確嗎?那我就問你!"},{"start":485.464,"end":493.99,"text":"美國法的規範跟我們刑法一百四十四條一百四十一條之一哪裏構成要件不一樣這麼簡單的問題都回答不出來喔"},{"start":515.624,"end":534.229,"text":"在聯邦或邦的立法機關的調查委員會為虛偽陳述就涉及未經宣示的虛偽陳述而言是用一百五十三條一百五十三條的規範是什麼未經宣示的虛偽陳述三個月以上五年以下有期度性這個是德國新發展的規定來請教一家部長"},{"start":535.329,"end":554.068,"text":"這樣的構成要件跟我們所通過的構成要件哪裡不一樣?請說明各位委員報告德國並沒有執行需要說要入罪的執行的內容它是根據執行顯示根據憲法徵修條文是三條一項第一款而來的來我們再看一下立法機關的調查委員會文書委陳述我現在在請教你的是構成要件哪裡不一樣嗎?"},{"start":558.732,"end":584.153,"text":"你以為德國並沒有指詢當作入罪的一個理由而且德國是三權分立的不是我們五權分立的好 所以你今天的立論就是五權分立跟三權分立還有那個指詢德國並沒有指詢當作他入罪的一個理由大家心裡都有巴适來 我們接下來再看你說無限期審查人事同意權現行的條文有針對人事同意權的審查設上線嗎"},{"start":585.595,"end":593.202,"text":"有嗎?而且我的問題是我們現行條文有設上限嗎?我們現行的條文有沒有設上限?現在沒有設上限你也同意嗎?"},{"start":604.347,"end":624.012,"text":"現在的條文有沒有設上限嗎?沒有嘛!所以按照你的看法,現行的條文是不是也違憲?只要沒有設上限,就是無限期!只要沒有設上限,就是違憲!我在請教的是,這是不是我們新任行政院院長的"},{"start":625.232,"end":648.288,"text":"發言委員你為什麼不設上限呢?對嘛!所以你認為現行的條文也違憲嘛!來!為什麼不設上限?我們來看一下2008年6月的時候馬英九提名司法院院長、副院長、監察院院長、副院長整個審查的期限喔前後一個例行12天一個例經19天來請教教院長你認為符合民主程序嗎?"},{"start":649.875,"end":678.633,"text":"你認為這樣符不符合民主程序?當年監察院的委員的行使也是這樣子所以你認為符不符合民主程序?如果立法院、大院真的要設一個好的,可以好好的來討論,不要設上前、不要設下前。這樣子的審查有沒有符合民主程序?程序要完整整套。對,這樣的審查有沒有符合民主程序?剛剛委員拿德國、美國的。對不起,我現在用台灣的例子問你,你又不回答。來,我們來看一下當初的賴清德是怎麼講的。"},{"start":679.69,"end":681.832,"text":"人事同意權像趕鴨趕雞一樣趕,光憑一點資料就進行審查,這個要立委如何審查?一個月喔!"},{"start":702.821,"end":702.841,"text":"謝謝時間到"}]}},{"id":"154087","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154087","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3367213ea81ee14259a0fb46ebc8501ac8204f6a4417db433eeccacc55ca201baa518cd20a1dc6235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"09:28:48 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聽委員搞清楚誰贊成誰反對舉手投票誰知道這是基本常識"},{"start":242.745,"end":271.559,"text":"二零一七零二月三號國會頻道直播這是民進黨提案的從那天開始包括我們現在都是全國直播在這裡講什麼做什麼通通清清楚楚怎麼會沒有人知道院長如果齁你的國際常識不足的話本席可以來這邊給你尊尊教誨齁歐洲議會英國議會聯合國到現在都是舉手表決所以沒有什麼叫做舉手表決誰知道第二"},{"start":273.841,"end":297.82,"text":"毀謠雙首長制不可以質詢總統總統沒有接受立委質詢的義務來我們來看一下影片我不願意不要下一步請大家注意立法院所有質詢所有報告總質詢還是委員會都是極問極大的永遠面對所有問題"},{"start":302.185,"end":312.769,"text":"又是民進黨的主張卓士晉非沒有通過這就是民進黨一貫的詐騙一貫的手法再過來不特別調查聽證範圍過廣再過來我們看這是第幾條這是立法院職權行使法修正後46條之二顯得很清楚立法院職權行使之前調查所有的目的事項範圍"},{"start":332.728,"end":355.087,"text":"通通寫得很清楚在訴訟中或審判中的立法院不得行使調查權範圍鑑定得非常清楚這個是案子是誰提的來我們播放一下為什麼當時沒有過這是你認為不適當嗎46條之二民進黨版本無意通過對不起是通過的民進黨的版本過去為什麼沒有過"},{"start":356.741,"end":374.783,"text":"就是不適當然後再過來末世正當法律程序違反程序正義請律師拒絕證言請問一下卓律師你是學法律我請問一下《刑事作法》二十七條除非是犯罪嫌疑人才可以請律師"},{"start":377.15,"end":389.861,"text":"法院可以請律師嗎?而且來這裡立法院聽證的民眾都是有涉及跟政府相關有勾結立法院立案調查來這裡作證作證怎麼可以帶律師?"},{"start":392.043,"end":408.369,"text":"但是你要科政府人員可以移送刑法,而且科人民直接的發法,這就是跟人民的職權行使法有關,百姓到立法院的聽證會,他是沒有刑責,只有政府官員有刑責"},{"start":409.509,"end":435.563,"text":"為保護人民的基本權利,一點水都不能放。無期限審查人事同意權,說立法院人事同意權空轉政府,癱瘓政府,限制機關的運作。我們修正的條文,叫做29條修正以後,立法院修審查期間,人事審查期間不得少一個月,並於院會表決前十天擬據審查報告,有什麼不對?"},{"start":437.875,"end":440.317,"text":"修正前立法院依照憲法104條徵修條文第五條、第六條、第七條"},{"start":454.11,"end":472.766,"text":"不經討論,交全院委員會審查。審查後,初院會以吳敬平投票表決。今院會委員二分之一同意為之。之前有任何的期間嗎?原本就沒有期間。所以,行政院門口無所八道,原本就沒有期間的限制。在不來下一條。懷疑官員虛偽陳述,可以刻意刑責。"},{"start":482.786,"end":498.178,"text":"這個完全是詐騙行政院的詐騙這一條是刑法一百四十一條之一哪裏是立法院的職權行使法在這裏造謠我們再次的強調再次強調中務院在立法院聽證部長部長本席不要請你回答中華民國憲法刑法中華民國刑法一百四十一條之一"},{"start":512.898,"end":534.313,"text":"公務員在立法院聽證或受質詢時虛偽陳述者處一年下游七年不是立法院來判他是從法院來處理我相信這個結論就是委員你不是檢察官啊你每個委員都可以把案件處理在法院這個質詢不是辦案質詢也不是檢察在做調查這個不是關於他的刑事訴訟的一個案件也不是刑法訴訟的案件好 最後一條"},{"start":541.543,"end":547.895,"text":"藐視國會定義不明,施以擴大立法院權責,所謂反執行以逆執行何謂藐視國會?"},{"start":553.914,"end":571.227,"text":"主務所要緩攻大陸,到現在還沒緩攻大陸,就一定要講這種,不會輸你啦!欸院長你聽懂我的問題嗎?你聽懂我剛才答詢嗎?我吃了草幹什麼?好屎!好屎!好屎!聽懂了沒?我覺得真的非常的離譜齁!台灣人民共產黨!台灣人民共產黨!"},{"start":574.09,"end":585.242,"text":"我怕到時候投降的第一個是你,第二個是蔡英文啊!是你們不敢笑了!不敢笑了!"},{"start":591.239,"end":610.678,"text":"請問這樣子有沒有對委員人身攻擊?這個可以算不算?花蓮縣議會的質詢也很精彩嗎?委員花蓮縣議會的質詢也很精彩?如果你用這種態度在立法院,你不但不是大師兄,不但沒有調和鼎賴,你用這種方式"},{"start":611.579,"end":629.857,"text":"用這種方式這是國會!如果你不是行政院長或你的水平是地方議會議員你可以這麼做所以卓院長請尊重你是行政院長你不是地方議會議員"},{"start":631.418,"end":649.873,"text":"請你面對國衛要謙卑、要調和鼎賴、要好好的把你的職務做好。最後再提醒你,面對國人,我只是一般的國人,是中華民國總統按照憲法來宣誓就職。請不要再推兩國論!不要再推兩國論!不要再推兩國論!請不要超越質詢的範圍。謝謝傅崐萁委員質詢。謝謝左院長的備詢。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}