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案 但台灣民眾黨聽到了基層檢察官的心聲,也知道他們在第一線偵辦犯罪的時候實際上面的需求,因為"},{"start":2263.854,"end":2284.46,"text":"如果讓偵查犯罪的能量不足的話所造成的只是重放罪犯繼續的橫行在這個社會上面造成更多無辜的民眾受害我們希望拖延了這麼多年有關於修正法院組織法"},{"start":2285.851,"end":2308.837,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．事由．立法院第11"},{"start":2313.14,"end":2329.038,"text":"各位委員針對這一次法院組織法的修正偵測檢察官助理這件事情能夠予以支持謝謝好謝謝黃委員我們下一位請翁曉玲委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2336.874,"end":2360.074,"text":"主席在場的各位委員還有政府官員們大家好本席這次提案修正法院組織法第六十七條以及第七十三條的附表那麼主要的理由呢如下首先就是心理師法第一條的規定心理師呢是包含臨床心理師和諮商心理師然而在目前法院組織法的第六十七條裡面"},{"start":2361.135,"end":2385.801,"text":"四條規定地方檢察署及檢察分署的關乎人士只能設置臨床心理師,沒有納入諮商心理師,以至於用人機關的需求無法滿足,捉襟兼舟。而且依照心理師法的第十三條以及第十四條所列的業務範圍來看,其實"},{"start":2388.502,"end":2392.023,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":2415.549,"end":2433.842,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條"},{"start":2444.569,"end":2466.656,"text":"本席認為其實有引進更多元專業心理師參與的必要以完善社會安全防護網所以本席在此就提出修正法院組織法第六十七條並同第七十三條的附表讓符合資格的智商心理師臨床心理師都可以擔任關護人"},{"start":2472.056,"end":2491.93,"text":"都可以在關乎人事來擔任相關的工作。好,那臨床心理師從106年投入關乎業務或受刑人角質工作,其實多年來在毒品性侵害防治、酒飲精神疾病等等問題各樣的心理諮商上面,他們成效卓越功不可沒。"},{"start":2492.35,"end":2506.096,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草"},{"start":2522.283,"end":2547.517,"text":"主席哥委員大家早今天司法院奉邀列席貴委員會就委員有關法院組織法的這個修正草案提案代表本院進行報告我們要表達首先要表達感謝那以下是幾點我們本院簡單的意見請各位指教首先是關於台灣民眾黨黨團還有委員劉建國等人擬具了法院組織法六十六條之五"},{"start":2548.698,"end":2557.615,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案 案。在地方法院預計要徵社檢察官助理的這部分。另外關於委員"},{"start":2559.669,"end":2586.466,"text":"六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案。預計在地方檢察署及檢察分署的關乎人士將臨床心理師修正為心理師以涵蓋諮商心理師這部分這部分都是屬於我們檢察機關的職權運作並不會影響我們本院所屬各級法案審判權的行使所以本院的立場向來都是尊重法務部的意見"},{"start":2587.307,"end":2591.908,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":2612.293,"end":2613.294,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案"},{"start":2638.605,"end":2642.281,"text":"接著我們請法務部政部長報告。"},{"start":2648.908,"end":2650.209,"text":"六十六條之五及第七十三條附表修正草案"},{"start":2676.084,"end":2677.926,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案件,僅代表法務部列席報告並備諮詢。」"},{"start":2695.447,"end":2716.005,"text":"那有提出自顧方式禁用檢察院助理100名今年再獲行政統一擴大禁用150名那本部現依照這些已經禁用的250名那本部對本則對整個提案是競表同意的違草案規定各級檢察署經得設置檢察院助理"},{"start":2716.645,"end":2738.599,"text":"同化七十四條七十五條有關高等檢察署最高檢察署的原理附表是我相應的修正以並考量。」那有關委員翁曉玲等16人擬具的法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案這份本部的意見是將臨床心理師修正為心理師可涵蓋臨床心理師及諸葬心理師"},{"start":2739.299,"end":2746.684,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．本部對本則提案的是競表贊同為草案規定各級檢察署經得"},{"start":2767.99,"end":2795.953,"text":"六十四條設置檢察院助理同法七十四條七十五條有關高等檢察署最高檢察署原額附表是否相應修正一並考量最後本部再次對大院費薪修法表達感佩之意以上報告敬請各位委員先行執教謝謝各位好謝謝部長那其一機關報告請參閱書面那機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄"},{"start":2799.119,"end":2816.102,"text":"提案說明及機關報告都已經進行完畢那現在開始進行尋答本會委員尋答時間為8分鐘非本會委員尋答時間為4分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2836.797,"end":2838.26,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":2847.226,"end":2872.44,"text":"部長好打擊詐騙犯罪所需要的人力所需要的資源所需要的科技偵查手段我相信這個會期到這裡部長可以充分的感覺到在野黨是權力的支持但是在另外一個方面當我們發現到詐騙集團猖獗裡面竟然有檢察官涉入的話這件事情要嚴肅的追究責任"},{"start":2874.401,"end":2896.185,"text":"之前有一次你沒有來司法法制委員會我已經公開就教過當時的法務部的次長我說詐騙集團跟不肖的律師集團勾結一起在搞詐騙結果竟然有檢察官還鼓勵他律師的男友去加入這個詐騙集團後來"},{"start":2898.806,"end":2911.775,"text":"他的律師男友依照不僅僅是加重詐欺還依照組織犯罪防治條例被起訴檢察官鼓勵他的律師男友去加入犯罪組織害人聽聞"},{"start":2914.296,"end":2938.513,"text":"最離譜的事情是什麼?更離譜的事情是他的律師男友所在幫忙辯護偵查當中的案件結果接下來在公訴的時候是這個檢察官在立庭這件事情部長有沒有掌握?這部分我們也責成了那個台高檢來做行政調查什麼時候責成台高檢進行調查的?"},{"start":2941.802,"end":2954.688,"text":"這部分我們是在6月12日6月12日嗎那之前法務部在做什麼之前法務部在做什麼這件事情法務部是6月12號才知道嗎這件事情法務部什麼時候知道的那個犯罪組織什麼時候被起訴的法務部什麼時候知道這件事為什麼拖到6月12號請說明這部分事實上在台灣地檢署已經有做行政調查了"},{"start":2970.197,"end":2993.155,"text":"四月份就行政調查了對於桃園地檢署四月份所做的行政調查法務部滿不滿意這部分我們尊重那個桃園地檢的桃園地檢的行政調查法務部是一句尊重就可以解決的嗎分兩個部分喔六月十二號你們交給台高檢台高檢發出來的聲明稿"},{"start":2994.189,"end":3021.305,"text":"六十六條法律部的新聞稿全部都是什麼進行形式的偵辦嗎形式的偵辦歸形式的偵辦來看一下你們所發的新聞稿要求他做的是什麼形式的偵查哦形式的偵辦哦現在我要處理的事情是什麼形式的偵查形式的偵辦交給檢察官去偵辦犯罪我沒有意見了我有意見的是什麼我有意見的是你們的行政調查報告在哪裡"},{"start":3022.225,"end":3045.622,"text":"你說之前桃園地檢署有做行政調查也移到檢察官評鑑委員會了可是我上一次質詢的時候就問了嘛檢察官評鑑委員會移送給檢察官評鑑委員會的事實有包括那一位檢察官竟然在他詐團男友所幫忙辯護的案件當中力挺嗎"},{"start":3047.045,"end":3057.336,"text":"有包括說他在立庭的時候竟然沒有就累犯應該加重情形的事實具體指出證據方法嗎?上一次次長黃謀信說的是"},{"start":3059.588,"end":3072.918,"text":"六十六條之五條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表"},{"start":3080.316,"end":3081.838,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 案例"},{"start":3101.476,"end":3116.99,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一）二）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":3124.994,"end":3131.637,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草"},{"start":3152.875,"end":3154.556,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":3178.954,"end":3205.248,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 行事及行政責任事實對外公布。到了今年三月我繼續問新北地檢署發的新聞稿是什麼行政調查程序仍在進行還沒有結案沒有辦法提供行政調查結果從去年的三月到今年的三月整整一年整整一年喔我要的是行政調查的結果"},{"start":3206.141,"end":3212.242,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":3236.152,"end":3243.157,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":3259.346,"end":3267.154,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":3279.192,"end":3305.705,"text":"我們絕對沒有包庇的這些的（所以你要怎麼解釋一年多行政調查報告交不出來我們尊重他的結果是什麼一年多交不出來兩年夠不夠三年夠不夠還是要五年還是我們必須要整密的去調查是到目前為止都已經被彈劾移送懲戒法院了你們還要整密的調查搞了一年多欸連行政調查報告都交不出來有什麼難以起死的理由"},{"start":3310.629,"end":3330.163,"text":"有什麼難以啟齒的理由都已經被移送懲戒法庭了欸行政調查報告還交不出來今天如果是刑事偵查的話那個是社會輿論要監督啊這是行政調查欸行政調查不是法務部應該去負責任的範圍嗎"},{"start":3333.621,"end":3349.771,"text":"所以具要大家尊重行政調查我們都尊重啊我很有耐心的等啊我從去年的三月一路問問到現在問到現在行政調查報告還做不出來這樣的效率部長可以接受嗎我們會督導會督導好我們拭目以待啊你剛剛說那一個檢察官"},{"start":3360.639,"end":3388.011,"text":"幫助鼓勵他的律師男友去加入犯罪組織搞詐騙的你說那份行政調查報告兩個月可以做出來嗎剛剛這個是你說的嗎好兩個月可以做出來這一份已經做了一年多了還需要再多久剛剛你不是說你要督導嗎我相信你的督導啊剛剛那份兩個月要做出來現在這一份拖了一年多還需要多久"},{"start":3390.626,"end":3396.188,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":3415.93,"end":3439.78,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第20會期司法及法制委員會第21會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第23會期司法及法制委員會第23會期司法及法制委員會第24會期"},{"start":3446.17,"end":3471.873,"text":"這個錢到底是怎麼估算出來的請部長這個是由調查局跟警政署來估算出來的調查局是不是法務部所屬是吧是啊對啊啊你是作為法務部部長調查署調查局不是你的轄下機關嗎所以我現在請教你啊這一百億一開始建制就要一百億是怎麼估算出來的"},{"start":3473.24,"end":3482.646,"text":"怎麼估算出來的三大電信業者每個電信業者分30億結果立法院給你們要報告給一張紙喔拿一張紙來要過上百億這樣對嗎"},{"start":3488.215,"end":3516.997,"text":"這個是建制的這是屬於技術層面的一個問題這部分我想那個建制機關他們會有做一個評估跟一個建制機關的評估這一百億怎麼計算出來的可不可以提供詳細的內容給司法及法制委員會而不是只有一張紙打詐需要的打詐需要的我們一定會給後盾但我看到一張紙一百億的時候我需要更細的內容我才能負責任的做決策嗎"},{"start":3518.646,"end":3536.966,"text":"一張紙一百億三大電信業者各要三十億怎麼計算出來的這個費用合理嗎成本怎麼計算的需不需要跟司法法制委員會的委員針對你們估算的細節提供詳細的資料來請教部長"},{"start":3547.927,"end":3548.127,"text":"六十九億兩千萬"},{"start":3573.029,"end":3577.094,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":3590.339,"end":3617.536,"text":"我再強調一次需要的錢需要的科技偵查手段我們都會支持但處理的方式絕對不是像現在的法務部一樣拿一張紙來喔A4的紙喔上面沒有寫幾個字就說要一百億相關的資料請法務部一個禮拜之內提出來謝謝好那這個部分就麻煩法務部一個禮拜內提出來好謝謝"},{"start":3619.468,"end":3621.361,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":3661.617,"end":3683.755,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表�"},{"start":3689.937,"end":3715.189,"text":"來我們人事總處人事總處請人事總處對於本院委員提案對於這個法院組織法六十六條之五的以及七十三條附表修正草案是針對現在要求增加檢察官助理"},{"start":3717.614,"end":3720.961,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":3725.283,"end":3732.105,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席劉建國等十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席劉建國等十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席劉建國等十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席劉建國等十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席"},{"start":3752.771,"end":3765.779,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全"},{"start":3779.167,"end":3789.909,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織"},{"start":3804.741,"end":3829.84,"text":"我們希望能夠在檢察官助理禁用一年之後我們來評估這部分真正的人力其實我們大家可以知道檢察事務官其實應該才是檢察官最主要的一個輔助的人力那檢察檢察官助理因為他本身是在收集一些資訊那可能在整個偵查的核心這一塊能夠提供的部分是不是我們建議能夠在實施一年之後再來看看這個法治化現在已經實施一年了"},{"start":3830.54,"end":3833.201,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":3857.519,"end":3866.404,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二）二十三條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二）二）"},{"start":3869.731,"end":3894.663,"text":"我們去年編了一個應該是今年編了一個三億的社會社會發展的預算然後進行打詐的相關的工作那所以有什麼成效沒有有在比如說我們在遊戲的部分我們這個被165通報的那個案件數也降低了或者是我們在電商平台上面的相關的這個危險的平台的通報也是降低的"},{"start":3895.376,"end":3897.639,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案 案"},{"start":3903.58,"end":3924.615,"text":"這個可能我們三千三百三千多萬的這個部分是整個部裡面的預算那包括整個國際的對接的部分然後當然還有花了兩三百億裡面有三億是拿來針對這個是額外的那過去我們在做電商品牌的管理或者是遊戲的管理也都有這個機會來國家通訊NCC"},{"start":3935.828,"end":3938.133,"text":"七條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":3947.675,"end":3960.24,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":3976.513,"end":3977.295,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":3995.424,"end":3998.825,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案案案"},{"start":4023.908,"end":4026.129,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案案案案。"},{"start":4046.696,"end":4072.825,"text":"我們再看一下一百零八年的三萬四千九百四十七件到去年的二十二萬九千七百一十一件征服到五百五十七個百分點法務部到底是法務部的無能還是整個行政院整個體制都癱瘓了花了這麼多錢越打越炸"},{"start":4074.534,"end":4082.596,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":4094.11,"end":4100.673,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第22屆第23屆第24屆第24屆第27屆第28屆第28屆第29屆第30屆第41屆第41屆第42屆第42屆第43屆第43屆第44屆第44屆第45屆第46屆第47屆第47屆第47屆第48屆第48屆第49屆第49屆第50屆第50屆第51屆第51屆第51屆第52屆第52屆第53屆第53�"},{"start":4120.28,"end":4141.577,"text":"因為這個是本部保護部是負責懲詐的一個部分所以我們是希望如果有這些我們全部都把它查清帶進來我們現在看一下這個根據啊這個今天行政院書法部所提出來"},{"start":4143.413,"end":4162.606,"text":"行政院一百一十二年五月十號通過新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領一點五版四大面向第一個認識的是試詐由內政部擔任統籌機關第二堵詐防堵的堵堵詐"},{"start":4163.757,"end":4174.939,"text":"由NCC負責統籌,賭詐現在賭出了什麼成果,試詐試出了什麼成果。第三個主詐,主擋詐騙,監管會負責統籌辦理。最後第四是懲詐,法務部負責統籌機關。結果這四個主要的部會負責四大面向"},{"start":4192.864,"end":4199.906,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期"},{"start":4211.348,"end":4233.081,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":4240.896,"end":4248.959,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":4255.643,"end":4280.485,"text":"那請問行政院的版本是什麼法務部的版本是什麼本部那個已經把在去年11月已經把那個整個一個修正草案就是六十六條之五跟七十三條就已經送行政院的他現在是有報行政院行政現在跟司法院因為法規主管機關是司法院所以現在在所以說去年去年什麼時候送行政院11月到現在幾月了到現在幾月了"},{"start":4282.318,"end":4293.305,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆"},{"start":4312.523,"end":4318.107,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":4342.568,"end":4351.855,"text":"四條本黨也會提出相關於支持的版本。這是一個最基本的。因為打詐是由行政院在統籌。統籌到現在越打越詐。"},{"start":4354.244,"end":4355.865,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第六十七條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":4376.698,"end":4404.566,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 案 請部長回去反映,院會的時候反映,行政院會反映,儘快把行政的版本把它提出來,本席恭候,謝謝。好,謝謝。那剛剛那個人事總署,剛剛副委員請你們補充資料,麻煩你們補充,一個月內嗎?一年,一年到的時候,不好意思。那你們到時候要記得補充。"},{"start":4409.752,"end":4418.859,"text":"這個部分呢就是剛那個一百零八一那個部分可能就麻煩你們一週內一定要送到本委員會來好謝謝好那接下來我們請審法會委員進行詢答主席我們先請這個法務部長麻煩政部長"},{"start":4438.659,"end":4460.978,"text":"委員早部長早我想今天我們本委員會排審這個法院組織法的第六十六條之五的這個條文最主要是事實上從剛才這個提案委員說明跟我們剛才的詢答過程中大家都有談到事實上這個這個有關這個檢察官助理的法制化這個問題從這個司法"},{"start":4463.9,"end":4483.52,"text":"國事會議到現在過了一段時間今天我們委員會排審我想最主要的目的就是說希望能夠加速能夠推動我們法務部盡快提出法務部自己的版本能夠盡快的把檢察官助理法制化把它完成"},{"start":4484.943,"end":4505.316,"text":"那這個我想在這過程中到現在這個法務部到現在都還沒有提出自己的版本我想有這個應該在這個整個討論的過程中其實不只是法務部的問題我們整個行政院的團隊包括這個人事總書包括有相關的其他單位大家可能有一些意見"},{"start":4506.016,"end":4522.201,"text":"必須要整合這是第一點第二點就是說這個我們從這個去年的10月是不是去年11月11月去年11月開始的第一批的這個檢察官助理到現在10月10月10月10月我記得是10月了從去年10月到現在"},{"start":4525.242,"end":4546.357,"text":"第一批檢察官助理也還沒有連到一年都還沒有完所以可能有相關的績效必須去評估或做未來我們法制化的一個參考這是我個人的想法不過這個等一下我等一下會請教部長但是我想這個在這個法我們要既然大家今天討論到這個法條"},{"start":4547.978,"end":4550.199,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件,而其中一律法律組織法律組織法律組織法律組織法律組織法律組織"},{"start":4575.507,"end":4601.174,"text":"最重要是我們檢察官助理的這個定位從一開始到現在到未來的法制化我覺得這個部分要談清楚因為我們去年所拼用的那一批其實是用打詐的專案下去拼用他是因為打詐專案下去拼用用第二預備金下去做的最重要是說這未來未來他法制化常態化之後這個檢察官助理他到底是"},{"start":4602.176,"end":4607.217,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．三．二十七條附表修正草案．一．三．四．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．"},{"start":4626.301,"end":4655.669,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件的一部分呢還是只是定位在內部事務的相助這個部分恐怕部長你能不能說明一下謝謝委員吼那的確是那個檢察官助理是相助內部性的一個事務但是因為我們偵查的一些的案件的一個處理吼不是只有不是只有那個直接向詢問證人詢問詢問還有製作書類還有強制處分等等我們還有很多的"},{"start":4656.129,"end":4680.185,"text":"我看到你們有盯一個檢察官盯用檢察官助理的參考指引對大概有六項的一個工作的一個指引那個六項工作的確是因為你們在報告裡面說齁你們在報告裡面提到說這個這個從去年十月開始齁你們報告裡面提到說成效良好啦現在這個這個用的這個檢察官檢察官助理成效良好但是我是覺得很奇怪到現在才"},{"start":4680.945,"end":4709.262,"text":"才幾個月才半年八個月左右怎麼現在這個這個整個你們真的做過成效評估嗎跟委員報告吼這個成效好我想直接最感受的就是基層檢察官他的感受是非常好的因為的確可以減輕減輕我們檢察官檢察官一定覺得那個那個製作譬如說我們那個被害所謂成效良好吼包括我剛剛所提的這些問題以及我們實際禁用對檢察官來講當然是是是有增加助理當然是很好"},{"start":4709.622,"end":4711.663,"text":"六十六條之三條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":4731.906,"end":4737.548,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院及法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案（事由．立法院及法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":4756.753,"end":4783.006,"text":"一個檢察官助理其實他可以處理幫助處理這內部是新聞的案件事實上已經達到了那個那個一個人有40件的一個案件這很好而且我也知道事實上一定有幫助不然我們這委員會不會安排在這邊安排說希望你但是所謂的成效報告成效評估報告不只是這些數字他還包括他這個任用裡面我等一下後面還有很多問題是不是這個主席我們先請人事總署來麻煩人事總署"},{"start":4791.152,"end":4799.718,"text":"六十九條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十九條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十九條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院"},{"start":4819.625,"end":4825.446,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":4849.531,"end":4850.431,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案案案"},{"start":4876.707,"end":4892.084,"text":"立法包括現在委員所提出來這些草案說明裡面都是希望檢察官助理能夠比照法官助理但是我們用禁用的方式法官助理他是聘用我們現在是跟委員報告我們就是希望能夠入法化能夠給他一個法令的一個職長依據"},{"start":4893.565,"end":4901.408,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":4917.415,"end":4919.176,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":4936.67,"end":4939.153,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":4958.092,"end":4980.641,"text":"第四點第二款的禁用人員來禁用。」這是他法令依據的齁。那禁用之後同樣的這個第四點裡面他就有規定說主管機關你合撥經費這個必須事請機關提供前一年或前次約用人員運用成效檢討報告。我們現在事實上還沒有到一年啊。"},{"start":4981.678,"end":5010.913,"text":"還沒有到一年所以我剛剛一直在講的成效評估報告是法定的成效評估報告不是剛剛我們所講的基層檢察官的個人感受或者是我們所做的簡單統計統計數字對於這個詐騙案件的統計而已而是我所提的這個法定的這個評估報告這評估報告事實上要一年之後要到今年十月才滿一年嘛今年十月滿一年之後才能進行評估報告嘛評估報告進行大概給你們一兩個月來進行大概也要到明年一月才有辦法真正提出這個成效報告對不對"},{"start":5012.079,"end":5014.1,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":5032.987,"end":5055.35,"text":"一年完成之後這個評估報告完成了我們不希望說在法制化的過程裡面我們訂定了一個法制結果最後未來根本就就還必須按照這個成交報告還必須做很多修改包括裡面有很多我們我們這個真事辦法跟這個這個參考這個參考指引的相關的訂定都還要還需要時間所以我是希望說等一下我們能夠說"},{"start":5056.511,"end":5076.076,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案 令法務部作更充分的說明,讓我們希望能給法務部一些時間,我們把這個這個這個未來這個檢察官助理的法制化跟常態化更謹慎的來處理。以上。好,謝謝。那請回。好,下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員進行詢討。"},{"start":5085.545,"end":5086.891,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":5090.455,"end":5095.758,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":5115.811,"end":5125.263,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":5132.432,"end":5136.215,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":5162.728,"end":5179.194,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":5188.339,"end":5189.14,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二十三條附表修正草案。"},{"start":5198.066,"end":5201.247,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":5222.814,"end":5224.456,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件 。"},{"start":5246.343,"end":5272.39,"text":"六十六條本席都會覺得非常的一個懷疑啊工作人員減量的手段其實很多我看再跟大家提醒再公推你以為你有那麼多的專家提出來你像比如說你們講說書類的簡化我這個部分就不只是法務部啊還有司法院啊不只是書類簡化的方向同時也是司法院的一個政策你們在講說推動裁判書類簡化列為今年施政計畫綱要的重要的一個事項那同時在三月二十五號的業務座談會裡面你要請民視廳跟行事廳長"},{"start":5274.951,"end":5301.334,"text":"九簡化原則及範例來做說明。」就是說不必要的格式跟那個敘述啊,你們就全部都把它給省略掉了。這個部分是不是請司法院這個地方來做說明。否定我剛才跟你講的意思就是說,不是保護人,就是說你們人有了要想好喔。我很擔心現況,你現在想到的只是說法院,你們現在想到的就是法院或者檢察官。"},{"start":5302.233,"end":5305.556,"text":"二十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":5320.614,"end":5325.776,"text":"四條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":5338.479,"end":5348.403,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正�"},{"start":5366.67,"end":5393.927,"text":"是這個方向而並沒有去動到裁判書構成的核心。我每個禮拜固定有三天的時間在做選民服務我看到很多起訴書或者看到很多裁判書啦檢察官的起訴書現在已經夠簡化了我認為也夠清楚證據清單也列得很清楚增點的部分也列得很清楚可是你法院要特別注意喔你像比如說日本那個起訴狀一本主義等期了你把整個訴訟程序又重來"},{"start":5395.708,"end":5401.43,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．一）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．一）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．一）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「"},{"start":5423.524,"end":5426.612,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件 也不能去過火了但是針對減量這個部分"},{"start":5429.019,"end":5436.901,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14條附表修正草案（事由（委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（立法院組織法第"},{"start":5453.925,"end":5455.206,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5475.711,"end":5497.749,"text":"那個我簡單跟委員報告其他部分我們行事廳廳長可以補充那這個部長先請回部長先請回來因為這個協商成就我們所知這部分在訴訟審理過程中也要看檢察官那邊的意願之前之前我們是你不覺得這個數字很怪嗎是那我們也是希望說廳長你有沒有覺得很怪你我就怎麼看我都覺得怎麼怪"},{"start":5500.077,"end":5501.398,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":5521.641,"end":5530.868,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":5551.044,"end":5556.126,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":5566.664,"end":5572.806,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":5592.133,"end":5620.085,"text":"其實我到我這樣覺得啦不管是檢察官助理啊或法官助理啊你去把它做一個增加你說是不是就會去改善目前司法事務上現在的焦慮或者說人力做一個填補那把這個這個現在過勞的情況去做一個改變司法工作人員的辛勞外界其實真的是知道這也是一個不爭的一個事實但是呢我必須要去提醒就是說走進這個法院裡面"},{"start":5621.986,"end":5643.917,"text":"全都是老百姓。走到這個法院裡面的其實我們這整個訴訟制度倒不是為檢察官或者為法官而存在是為老百姓而存在我很擔心你們弄到最後整套整個訴訟司法體制的運作中的一個核心你去把它給改變掉所以"},{"start":5644.597,"end":5665.971,"text":"我看在場大家都是法界的精英啊﹖很多的專業人士啊﹖那你們一直我們一直在從司法改革我們這個講了幾十年老百姓都其實都體會不到像今天談的兩關助理也好你說你們司法院人不夠再補給你們也好我們談待再多老百姓也沒有感覺啊"},{"start":5667.512,"end":5670.573,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．"},{"start":5685.2,"end":5707.255,"text":"是惶恐的啦所以制定一個制度像這種法律尤其是法律也好做出來的判決也好那個要跟人民要很貼近我是非常期待就是說人力不足的部分我們在這個地方立法院都可以來做一個大力的一個支持可是擔心就是改完以後呢給你500個以後呢你們解決的是什麼過勞"},{"start":5713.541,"end":5715.161,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會議．立法院組織法第16次全體委員會議．立法院組織法第16次全體委員會議．立法院組織法第16次全體委員會議．"},{"start":5737.605,"end":5743.916,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":5750.725,"end":5755.006,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":5776.29,"end":5778.072,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 案"},{"start":5805.353,"end":5807.557,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們請鄭部長。好,請鄭部長上台。部長早。"},{"start":5816.394,"end":5837.775,"text":"部長今天我們要審查的是有關這個法院組織法部分的修正條文那其中主要是要讓檢察官的這個助理法制化而提出的修法那誠如剛剛我們這個修正草案裡面所寫的相關部會的這個書面報告中也都有提及的"},{"start":5838.315,"end":5845.382,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．"},{"start":5856.566,"end":5870.377,"text":"四至七八五號對健康權的保障、長時間高壓高工時的環境以及眼前處理不完的案件或許也是造成檢察官離職還有出走的原因。」"},{"start":5872.507,"end":5894.189,"text":"也因為我們法務部在打詐行動綱領當中主要負責懲詐的部分為維持這個偵查的量能改善檢察官工作的環境過去一段時間也有諸多的這個討論包括人力的增補工作的這個簡化以及檢警分工和科技輔助的手段等等但在這個"},{"start":5895.39,"end":5898.195,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案件事項．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5907.654,"end":5922.007,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":5935.099,"end":5938.203,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具"},{"start":5951.713,"end":5967.55,"text":"因為我們現在檢討的助理是業用人員他是一個依勞計劃來訂勞動契約的所以他那個加班就是依勞動基準法的相關的規定來辦理的那據我所了解現在每個月加班可以領到三千元"},{"start":5968.251,"end":5970.233,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案．"},{"start":5985.005,"end":5986.226,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":5999.87,"end":6018.129,"text":"六十六條基關所設定的工作內容範圍似乎略有差異。那我想請教部長的是在助理的這個業務範圍上會是讓各檢察機關因地制宜還是有個通用的這個規範來遵循進而規劃一致性的訓練?"},{"start":6019.43,"end":6026.856,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案。"},{"start":6045.931,"end":6060.602,"text":"都是在這個六的公共項目之一的範圍內去做一個一個招考的工作的一個一個一個工作的一個呃擔任的一個範圍所以這個範圍是不可超過我們法務部給他一個工作之一"},{"start":6060.862,"end":6061.703,"text":"六十六條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":6079.468,"end":6102.361,"text":"但是從我們法院組織法第六十六條之三來看檢察事務官受檢察官的指揮那處理的事務包括搜索還有扣押還有勘驗執行拘提等犯罪追溯的這些相關的工作那同樣同時間他們處理的事務的時候也具有這個司法警察的身份"},{"start":6102.961,"end":6114.088,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":6118.931,"end":6148.003,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案 與偵查是比較沒有關聯那我想請教部長是會不會有檢察官的助理也變成這個檢察事務官助理的情形變相就是他是檢察官的助理可是後來變成是檢察事務官的助理的情形那檢察官助理和檢察事務官之間權責上會不會產生重疊的狀況在實際的這個工作上應該要如何互動及合作才能夠達到最理想的這個效益"},{"start":6148.603,"end":6156.629,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":6174.882,"end":6190.887,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案 案件,並擬"},{"start":6199.65,"end":6205.275,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條"},{"start":6224.452,"end":6231.542,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案．一．三．二條附表修正草案．一．三．四．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．五．"},{"start":6243.697,"end":6263.899,"text":"至今也超過半年。我們從這個人事總署那邊所提出希望約用的檢察官助理實際運作一年之後再來評估是否這個法制化那這部分是不是請教部長您到任到現在觀察那目前我們檢察官助理運用上的這個效益法務部是如何來評估"},{"start":6265.441,"end":6272.504,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第2會期司法及法制委員會第3會期司法及法制委員會第4會期司法及法制委員會第5會期司法及法制委員會第6會期"},{"start":6288.189,"end":6293.454,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":6310.329,"end":6333.394,"text":"會不會有這個被剝奪有沒有保障那還是直接會終止他們的契約我想這個是入法是其實他是一個法法制的法定的一個法制的一個職位我想這個保障會更好好沒問題吧沒問題好以上謝謝部長謝謝陳委員那下一位我們請鍾嘉賓委員進行訓導"},{"start":6349.375,"end":6361.554,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關署長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生而有請司法院黃副秘書長法務部正部長以及人事行政總處的張處長張處長請上台"},{"start":6369.787,"end":6370.727,"text":"二十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":6399.056,"end":6403.999,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":6428.095,"end":6438.698,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":6457.895,"end":6478.466,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6481.067,"end":6487.731,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第二十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":6510.865,"end":6515.127,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一）三）委員劉建國等16人擬具 «法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．一）三）委員劉建國等16人擬具《法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案》案。"},{"start":6542.14,"end":6555.742,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第16期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會等16人擬具:「法院組織法第16期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會第13期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":6570.265,"end":6570.745,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":6586.184,"end":6610.083,"text":"這個量因為我過去在地方政府當過副縣長我們的地政處還有地政事務所有這麼多一年大概350萬件你知道的登記錯誤造成人民的權益損害可不可以要求賠償土地法應該是68還是69條有這樣的規定無過失賠償責任是要負過失賠償責任嗎是在比較法治上是有很大討論空間的"},{"start":6610.723,"end":6612.464,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":6638.37,"end":6653.365,"text":"提存儲金作為賠償的準備那土地法的第六百八十一條和土地法第七十條原則上的機關的負責的是無過失賠償責任但是呢另外的情況執行人員故意或重大過失就由行政會去提撥您所知道有這樣的制度嗎副廳長"},{"start":6655.031,"end":6663.035,"text":"二十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院等16人擬具 «法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":6685.801,"end":6689.823,"text":"我請教法務部部長,你所知道目前我們刑事執行人員有沒有投保這個責任保險?麥克風,聲音怎麼樣?"},{"start":6712.064,"end":6733.738,"text":"這個司法院的確是在對民事執行處有這樣的一個責任的一個保險有嗎我不曉得但是我問你刑事執行人員有沒有這樣的責任險那個這部分其實部分的檢察機關齁大家執行科齁他是有參與這個好很好來往下看所以呢目前司法人員遭國賠求償的時候吧包括檢察官他雖然呢要求償的金額是一萬二但是這個風險讓他壓力很大"},{"start":6735.399,"end":6739.84,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":6752.125,"end":6764.312,"text":"三條附表修正草案案．一）二）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）三條"},{"start":6779.841,"end":6782.584,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．一條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":6801.343,"end":6827.181,"text":"六十六條之五條附表修正草案．立法院第十九年至一百一十三年我們所收收的徵收案件成長很快對不對從不到五十萬件到現在每年平均是七十萬件了是不是這樣子所以這是你們的需求往下看所以你們說你們打造的1.5版一百一十年去年開始新增檢察官助理去年一百個今年增加到一百五十個你們目前招考的這些檢察官助理的法律依據跟工作內容為何"},{"start":6830.985,"end":6832.767,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":6845.382,"end":6869.048,"text":"十四公訴實施偵查提起公訴實施公訴檢查事務官是受檢察官的指揮可以報告實施搜索可以報告詢問告訴人告發人相助檢察官執行的業務檢察官助理能做這些事情嗎不行他不行嗎這是剛剛的問題來我現在人事總署你們的人事總署對於我剛剛有提這個意見你們對於檢察官要偵測助理你們認為你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":6870.387,"end":6881.405,"text":"我們最主要知道檢察事務官其實缺額率還蠻高的我們認為說這一塊人力補齊檢察事務官的缺額蠻高的檢察事務官可以協助檢察官做剛剛那個比較重要的核心事務對不對那你們希望怎麼樣"},{"start":6883.139,"end":6903.965,"text":"當然是希望能夠盡快來補足檢察事務官那至於他們要求的檢察官助理呢?檢察官助理呢?你覺得他能做什麼事?因為我們知道他們去年十月才用那剛剛其實也有提到是可能在收集一些資料的部分是有一些助理但我們希望實施一年之後是不是到今年年底相關的報告出來我們再來看看這些要不要法治法好部長"},{"start":6905.227,"end":6934.027,"text":"目前根據我們這些約用人員的禁用跟運用要點他是非依公務人員法規以人事費以外之經費自行禁用他目前做的工作就是行政輔助對不對所以你們現在的法條你們希望說從約用變成聘用是不是這樣子我們是希望能夠禁用用禁用就可以了因為其實人種他們那個覺得是當然有擔心就是人種的看法呢一個原有上限的問題那如果禁用的話我們就可以好人種那如果用禁用的話是否這些人員"},{"start":6935.187,"end":6936.467,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案件事項．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":6959.733,"end":6964.195,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）二）二十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．三．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":6983.396,"end":6984.057,"text":"你進來都想要離開的時候啊。"},{"start":6991.328,"end":7002.278,"text":"六十六條之五條附表修正草案．一．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一"},{"start":7017.901,"end":7045.698,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件事,以後沒有這一路之後怎麼安排?要趕快想清楚好不好?好,那最後我們就是這樣。希望今天我們在支持你們的同時,你們目前的要求是不是要比你們的那個附表當中的編制數是跟法官助理一樣多嗎?市長還是部長?我們提的是我們有那個版本有提行之類的。來,人事總署,他們目前的附表裡面的所要用的元額跟法官助理比起來是多還少?"},{"start":7046.889,"end":7058.864,"text":"他們是打算要一樣就是跟檢察事務官的這個配比是跟檢察事務官一樣還是跟法官助理的鞭子一樣其實應該是檢察事務官檢察事務官那目前的法官助理跟司法事務官是不是一樣多"},{"start":7059.803,"end":7081.225,"text":"他們現在目前法官助理還有司法事務官部分是1比1.4司法事務官是1法官助理是1.4應該是法官是1然後司法事務官加上法官助理是1.4那未來檢察官跟檢察官事務官和檢察官助理是不是也是這樣的比例"},{"start":7082.779,"end":7099.837,"text":"市長您比較清楚您趕快講我們在行政院協調結果未來我們希望這個檢察官助理跟檢察事務官比照法院的司法事務官跟法官助理1比1.4您不是這樣主張啦齁這個院部講好就好因為書長說你們會很會計較我們希望不一樣說你們一邊高一邊低齁"},{"start":7102.82,"end":7105.783,"text":"三（委員劉建國等16人擬具 «法院組織法第三十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7122.697,"end":7128.683,"text":"六十六條之五條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條"},{"start":7151.533,"end":7166.843,"text":"主席有請法務部長以及人事總署我想先請教我們的人事總署"},{"start":7168.447,"end":7186.44,"text":"法院組織法1999年修正就說要偵測法官助理減輕法官負荷那麼詐騙犯案猖獗電信詐欺及被告人數已經攀升成各地檢署刑案第一位而且持續增長所以我今天要把檢查"},{"start":7187.516,"end":7214.083,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案件,而其效益有待觀察,建議約用檢察官助理實際運作一年後再進行評估是否法制化。可是現在就在提議,那你們是主張一年後再評估,絕對沒這個急迫性是不是?"},{"start":7214.804,"end":7229.705,"text":"我們其實剛剛有提到我們其實認為真正的那個偵查的主力應該是要檢察官跟檢察事務官所以我們認為檢察官助理他目前是輔助性質的是不是能夠實施一段時間也配合整個院的一個約用的一個禁用跟運用要點來做評估"},{"start":7230.606,"end":7238.129,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第十七條及第九十九條附表修正草案（事由．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":7257.375,"end":7258.976,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案 案"},{"start":7277.422,"end":7299.075,"text":"在部裡面其實去年11月份有送過來那其實中間我們有請他們也有補充一些資料那目前整個行政院其實已經先由政務委員召開了協調會議也是期待說是不是因為他們本身現在檢查機關的員額6900是放在總委員法假如說真的要所謂禁用聘用的話其實是會就排擠了檢察官跟檢察事務官的員額"},{"start":7299.875,"end":7317.191,"text":"所以我們大概希望是能夠法制化的話是不是要等到這些御用人員禁用一年之後再來評估目前的案子有送到院裡面去正在簽程當中我要再問部長齁剛剛就在講說今天就是沒有看到院版嘛對不對因為還在簽程還在研議當中嘛對不對"},{"start":7317.967,"end":7340.956,"text":"因為這個是法規的主管法規是司法院對司法院所以必須要兩院要必須要協商是那我看我想請教一下法務部在這個事情當中你們的積極性在哪裡這個能總的話有有我們有兩次應該二月份然後我要特別講一件事情今天其實我們在這邊沒有看到院版這件事情我就覺得心裡不是很踏實"},{"start":7342.264,"end":7356.647,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":7369.309,"end":7389.667,"text":"今天立法院我們當然是非常贊成今天要充實打詐的人力可是關於人事總署講的意見也是你們現在癥結卡住的關鍵可是立法院基本上某些情況之下尤其像這種所謂的打詐的法制的話我當然覺得行政院有明確的立場是比較好的一個做法沒錯吧"},{"start":7391.445,"end":7393.388,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":7400.848,"end":7405.069,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案件事項﹖一﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二﹖二�"},{"start":7429.81,"end":7457.777,"text":"我今天也看到賴總統決定要針對國會改革法案釋憲當然我們在這個行政院長附議說明跟被詢答詢答過程當中很多的一些意見都已經交流過了但有一樣東西我到現在都不太能理解想要就教於部長這個總統有沒有憲法義務到立法院做國情報告這個我想在附議的這些詢答中應該是不要聽你的意見啦"},{"start":7459.514,"end":7460.122,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":7463.803,"end":7484.948,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（司法及法制委員會及立法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．司法及法制委員會及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及"},{"start":7494.025,"end":7494.965,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件。"},{"start":7518.953,"end":7519.414,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案 案。"},{"start":7539.352,"end":7552.543,"text":"那我需要問一件事情今天我們賴清德總統認為總統到立法院接受國情這個進行國情報告跟接受問答他認為是違憲嘛所以提前提出所謂的要他也要進行釋憲嘛對不對是不是"},{"start":7553.775,"end":7554.396,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":7571.65,"end":7586.413,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":7593.649,"end":7616.314,"text":"我知部長我不會為難你回答因為你真的也答不出來就像剛才我們前面問的問題你也要停很久原因一樣因為這兩個就是一個相互矛盾你支持以前賴清德必然反對今天的賴清德可是今天這就是為什麼我剛剛講到說今天整個行政院副議也好總統副議也好我們最沒有辦法接受的是什麼接受是今天為什麼同一套話都是民進黨講的"},{"start":7617.85,"end":7641.816,"text":"作為法務部長你很辛苦啦因為你有政策辯護的一個所謂的可能你自己心中的假定但是很抱歉啊今天我是你我都不知道怎麼辯護啊我要嘛支持現在賴清德就是很K過去的賴清德要嘛我就支持過去賴清德我就要打臉現在賴清德我能怎麼辦而且部長你知道這兩個賴清德時間差多久你知道嗎半年而已欸"},{"start":7645.384,"end":7647.405,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員林思明等16人擬具"},{"start":7679.758,"end":7681.259,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":7692.116,"end":7701.138,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一百零七年到一百一十四年分年合徵預算緣額一千人．一．一百零七年到一百一十四年分年合徵預算緣額一千人。"},{"start":7716.301,"end":7734.549,"text":"六十六條新時代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領業務行政院同意檢察機關禁用約用檢察官助理250人以協助檢察官進行程序審查、卷證及法律問題的分析、收集資料等。"},{"start":7735.569,"end":7743.738,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":7756.223,"end":7758.546,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具"},{"start":7776.445,"end":7777.747,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":7794.668,"end":7801.29,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":7823.155,"end":7824.296,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案案。"},{"start":7849.727,"end":7850.267,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案案。"},{"start":7866.912,"end":7872.358,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":7888.308,"end":7906.305,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":7907.526,"end":7915.533,"text":"三條附表修正草案．一．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二�"},{"start":7929.725,"end":7937.271,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具"},{"start":7955.146,"end":7960.232,"text":"現在成效如何?只用這一百位是不是仍然會有造成過勞的問題?所以你的案件的處理有變快了嗎?"},{"start":7969.448,"end":7972.289,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一"},{"start":7996.573,"end":7998.694,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":8016.743,"end":8027.991,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條"},{"start":8040.939,"end":8044.28,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":8074.348,"end":8095.569,"text":"副名長你的報告寫說於地方檢察署偵測檢察官助理部分現行法院組織法由爭定有關檢察官助理之規定而予以修正之必要試射檢察機關的職權運作不影響各級法院審判權的行使本院向此尊重法務部的意見"},{"start":8096.75,"end":8122.134,"text":"十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及第七十三條條條文及"},{"start":8126.291,"end":8127.352,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":8151.434,"end":8156.756,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":8183.763,"end":8193.531,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等16人擬具:「法院組織法第二十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第二十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第二十三條附表修正草"},{"start":8205.06,"end":8213.872,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案．一）一部份台北地檢署也以判決有瑕疵、程序瑕疵、追溯權時效、計算有誤等理由提起上訴。」"},{"start":8223.925,"end":8243.361,"text":"這個我想台北地檢署會整個提起上訴我想有他的一個依據是我想從這個案例就這個判決裡面下來我們又很擔心說洗錢案如果免訴後陳水扁總統還有侵占總統府的公文二次經改的國泰並釋華還有教授偽證三案未審結"},{"start":8244.822,"end":8261.743,"text":"這三個案子分別在2013年12月20號2015年的8月31號以及2014年的1月28號裁定審理所以未來這三個案件是否法務部有去評估也有可能會臨於追溯時效"},{"start":8262.386,"end":8267.291,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案。"},{"start":8280.023,"end":8290.067,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":8313.882,"end":8321.644,"text":"現在請吳宗憲委員發言我們請人事總署處長及法務部長"},{"start":8332.269,"end":8357.791,"text":"兩位早安我先請教人事總處處長一件事情就是有關總原額的部分那我想請教你雖然說有一直提到說是不是要增加假關注於這個部分那我想請問一下因為這個問題很重要就是在這個那個原額的的這個天花板的情況下增加"},{"start":8359.248,"end":8381.81,"text":"六十九條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案案件 會不會影響到書記官或檢察官檢察事務官的緣額?按照現在所看到的版本他所用聘用的話那這個部分在第四類檢察機關6900的範圍之內你只要有運用檢察官檢察事務官跟所謂要禁用聘用的這個檢察官助理的話這些都是要用到這6900的額度之內"},{"start":8383.451,"end":8386.374,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二．二十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":8402.135,"end":8406.979,"text":"十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":8422.532,"end":8445.059,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 案 人事費以外禁用這部分也請麻煩部長聽一下部長先不用我還在問人事總處因為部長可能要注意一下雖然我們很努力的幫忙檢察官們去增加檢察官助理但是呢如果這個原額會去排擠掉檢察司務官或書記官的原額的話"},{"start":8445.987,"end":8453.63,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":8468.955,"end":8494.88,"text":"所以我今天問人事總署的問題就在這裡我要先釐清這個點那如果這個點是照您剛剛所說的那我跟各位報告一下檢察事務官跟書記官絕對比檢察官助理好用非常多因為檢察官助理他到時候能夠處理的事情跟他電腦使用的權限範圍一定是遠低於這些人"},{"start":8495.76,"end":8505.623,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":8516.927,"end":8519.228,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":8540.14,"end":8556.918,"text":"我好像告訴你給你了很多人就其實是排擠掉你你你自己的其他原本的那個原額好在這邊好那那個部長我想請問一下你就算到現在你對於那個合理化檢察官工作研議小組他們的一些作為以及成果你有你有知識嗎?處長請回"},{"start":8559.238,"end":8567.325,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第23屆第23屆第24屆第24屆第26屆第27屆第27屆第28屆第28屆第29屆第30屆第31屆第31屆第32屆第32屆第32屆第33屆第34屆第34屆第36屆第36屆第37屆第37屆第38屆第39屆第40屆第40屆第40屆第41屆第41屆第41屆第41屆第42屆第"},{"start":8587.102,"end":8603.63,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表�"},{"start":8617.037,"end":8619.418,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":8632.065,"end":8637.848,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第23屆第24屆第27屆第28屆第28屆第29屆第30屆第41屆第41屆第41屆第42屆第42屆第43屆第43屆第44屆第45屆第46屆第47屆第47屆第48屆第49屆第49屆第49屆第50屆第50屆第51屆第51屆第51屆第51屆第52屆第52屆第53屆第53屆"},{"start":8661.34,"end":8662.741,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 。"},{"start":8680.487,"end":8702.485,"text":"因為他必須跟偵查不公開他要有一個有一個權衡嘛對不對那再來就是說他也要有完整的教育訓練而且這個教育訓練比較不宜丟給各地地檢署因為每年的像那個學習司法官丟到各地的地檢署我以前也帶學習司法官那我帶學習司法官的時候其實就那段時間其實是蠻大的壓力"},{"start":8703.726,"end":8707.949,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":8726.084,"end":8727.905,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":8745.418,"end":8746.779,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":8764.793,"end":8767.897,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案件事項．一．二．二十三條附表修正草案案件事項．一．二．"},{"start":8781.076,"end":8784.279,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":8802.733,"end":8804.515,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":8816.581,"end":8842.661,"text":"因為工作量的關係我覺得這幾年會造成很多檢察官檢視官或書記官這個能力都一直在流失我想部長很清楚這個點所以創造一個比較合理化的工作環境這個是重要的點那之前我在對蔡部長質詢的時候其實我有跟蔡部長以及跟那個司法院的秘書長我有跟他們提一個事情其實能力的補充"},{"start":8843.402,"end":8847.223,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":8864.966,"end":8875.929,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":8892.54,"end":8897.486,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）台灣民眾黨團擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）台灣民眾黨團擬具"},{"start":8909.019,"end":8919.666,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織"},{"start":8937.739,"end":8938.124,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表"},{"start":8940.046,"end":8969.194,"text":"六十六條主份有嚴重錯誤的比例是極低啦那我們沒有必要為了這個極低的這個問題然後我們還是要求要這麼做啊那這有當然這刑事訴訟法要修法那可能要修法你們要跟司法院這邊至少要爭取嘛司法院這邊就修因為我跟跟那個部長以及跟那個副部長報告其實好的制度我們一定把它留下來但是有一些浪費人力的制度他又沒有效果那是不是"},{"start":8969.974,"end":8971.654,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":8998.208,"end":9000.589,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二．二十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":9020.663,"end":9022.646,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案"},{"start":9038.37,"end":9042.933,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員"},{"start":9060.945,"end":9073.151,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案。"},{"start":9083.416,"end":9090.503,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":9103.243,"end":9106.344,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件事務委員吳宗憲"},{"start":9136.83,"end":9138.471,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案 。"},{"start":9164.161,"end":9182.492,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期"},{"start":9192.572,"end":9218.989,"text":"十九條立委以來我一直對於就是人民要如何能夠相信司法司法機關要如何能夠取信於民眾一直都認為要建立制度或者說在制度內我們如何能夠提升人民的信賴感是非常重要的那麼陳水扁的保外就醫案他就是一個指標性的案件那這也是我一直在過去這個"},{"start":9221.673,"end":9229.74,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院及法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":9239.741,"end":9248.086,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院及法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附表"},{"start":9263.131,"end":9285.46,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案 免訴,之後呢同樣也會有這個三個案子都會是免訴那麼可以請部長您談一下針對第一個案子從新聞上面看有知道說好像這個台北地質署決定要上訴已經上提起上訴了嗎對於這個追訴權時效到底有沒有算錯"},{"start":9287.011,"end":9303.299,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":9316.966,"end":9318.649,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":9333.817,"end":9335.018,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":9356.191,"end":9381.921,"text":"第七十六條附表修正草案案 案件,為何不知道要趕快重新啟動,進行追溯,同時從台北地方法院宣判的日期裡面,大家可以看一下在1130就是今年的5月20號,正好是賴清德總統上任的那一天,他判決,他宣判免訴。"},{"start":9383.422,"end":9384.083,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":9397.216,"end":9407.524,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七條附表修正草案 案﹚立法院第九十七"},{"start":9426.998,"end":9438.929,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":9455.592,"end":9465.223,"text":"我想請副秘書長或行事廳的廳長可以說明一下你們法官通常在面對這樣的案件會認為他是因病不能倒庭嗎像陳水扁這樣的行為"},{"start":9466.656,"end":9475.8,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案件,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":9492.068,"end":9492.469,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":9508.667,"end":9514.408,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院等16人擬具 «法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":9534.894,"end":9542.113,"text":"會發函進行相關的音樂要提出這個被告是否有道庭陳述能力的鑑定他有沒有做這樣的鑑定"},{"start":9543.188,"end":9556.02,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表�"},{"start":9569.67,"end":9572.431,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":9598.325,"end":9602.448,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案件事項．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":9613.683,"end":9617.825,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條"},{"start":9644.534,"end":9666.133,"text":"四法院可以提出你們過去這個陳生法官或是地方法院那個股你們到底曾經有沒有針對陳水扁的個案有進行過相關的醫療鑑定對這個是這個才是建立制度嘛對不對不要讓大家會認為說整個司法就是遇到權貴就轉彎"},{"start":9669.002,"end":9669.463,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":9680.407,"end":9700.794,"text":"其他幾個案子好像最目前實際還蠻久的還蠻久所以你們是認為說是但你們是預計什麼時候重新啟動呢跟這個個案進行還是跟委員報告真的不適合有司法行政在這邊去過去的案子已經拖了太久了對不對然後已經拖到有個案子都免訴了還接下來請教一下所謂的免訴的意義是什麼"},{"start":9702.79,"end":9710.036,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":9731.158,"end":9734.684,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":9745.198,"end":9768.049,"text":"這個行政程序有瑕疵甚至你們自己法院內部控管都出了很大的問題在你們自己的各級法院辦案期限實施要點裡面都要求法官的辦案要限期辦理若有遲延院長要負責迅速督促他辦理法官還要每個月要填這個遲延這個月報表像這樣的一個情況"},{"start":9769.52,"end":9798.059,"text":"成水扁的案子拖了九年到底法院是有針對他因病不能到庭的做了什麼事情為什麼一直遲遲的不能夠重新這個開啟審理這存在太多太多的問題了我希望這個司法院是不是可以一個月內把成水扁的這個相關的這個法院就法院這邊的作為可以寫一個報告"},{"start":9800.686,"end":9806.429,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案案 案。"},{"start":9835.286,"end":9844.289,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":9855.759,"end":9860.401,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）二十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）二十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":9874.767,"end":9876.629,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 案件 提供資料寫報告,萬萬不可。」"},{"start":9892.603,"end":9895.125,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":9908.698,"end":9932.954,"text":"但是這段時間蠻遺憾的我看到在野黨的委員們有很多詆毀大法官甚至是威脅大法官的說法那也有委員說這整部條文只有部分違憲違憲就是違憲沒有分小部分違憲跟大部分違憲那看看這些在野黨的委員把大法官說成是看門狗"},{"start":9933.976,"end":9937.559,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":9950.087,"end":9973.006,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院的國民黨團將會針對司法院的預算以及即將未來要行使的大法官的人事同意權會做出因應意思就是一種威嚇請問"},{"start":9977.113,"end":10005.433,"text":"副秘書長過去的無數次的釋憲多數都是針對法案內容的解釋不是嗎過去到現在有多少是因為就針對大法官他的重要的工作憲法法庭就是針對法律的認定要做出解釋過去到現在有誰對於大法官他依職權依憲法的授權做出這樣的法律解釋然後說"},{"start":10006.494,"end":10027.065,"text":"十六條主要發動立法院來包圍這個大法官或是說大法官做出這個釋憲然後大家去利害相關人權益受損的申請釋憲就是包圍立法院過去到現在有發生過這種事嗎甚至公然的說要砍你們預算要反制你們的人事同意權過去到現在有發生過這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":10028.951,"end":10031.353,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":10059.312,"end":10065.341,"text":"四條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":10070.543,"end":10096.828,"text":"所以說為什麼提起釋憲就是包圍立法院就是挑戰立法院的修法這樣的說法完全狗屁不通如同剛剛副秘書長說的好我們要尊重大法官的權限對於未來的釋憲結果我們也不去介入也不去預判但是尊重大法官的職權這是我們要有的基本的法治觀念跟正確的態度好下一頁那我要問問部長"},{"start":10098.388,"end":10127.588,"text":"中國在我們國會擴權法案然後復議案失利之後的三小時同步的頒布了懲治台獨的二十二條意見書他是一個心理戰也是一個法律戰一中共頒布的這個懲治台獨沒有人是局外人不管你是台灣派你是中華民國派你是中華民國台灣派你都會中這一條"},{"start":10129.258,"end":10133.281,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":10155.379,"end":10159.18,"text":"四條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條"},{"start":10183.439,"end":10190.441,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":10203.405,"end":10212.869,"text":"也用缺席審判立了專章可以審判香港的人民。」我要問一下部長中國的司法管轄權有介於台灣嗎?頒布這樣的台獨意見書你要怎麼對國人來做說明?來部長"},{"start":10222.08,"end":10249.007,"text":"謝謝委員的確這個是國台辦他頒布的這些的懲治台獨的一個條款的確是法律戰吼那的確是影響台灣人民的基本的一個自由權利這個是非常不利兩岸的一個和平的一個發展那剛才委員所提的就是這個管轄權那我想這個這個我們也都清楚那個中共他從來沒有統治過"},{"start":10250.168,"end":10251.229,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":10269.758,"end":10278.281,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":10286.104,"end":10287.845,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．一年以上徒刑的犯罪．"},{"start":10314.258,"end":10319.404,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":10335.862,"end":10359.411,"text":"我特別把聯合國這45屆大會116號的決議文針對引渡示範條約的三大精神在透過今天的機會來做陳述我要告訴國人基於這樣的聯合國的引渡條約的認定分裂國家罪也好或是中國片面認定的煽動分裂國家罪也好它徹首徹尾就是一個政治犯罪所以其實"},{"start":10361.274,"end":10368.021,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．"},{"start":10377.659,"end":10381.942,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":10399.793,"end":10400.613,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":10416.328,"end":10418.189,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":10443.408,"end":10453.432,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案（事由（司法及法制委員會第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":10467.925,"end":10488.148,"text":"這一切跟國會擴權法案的立法修法對不起是修法的時間還有過程它不是全屬巧合是不折不扣的裡應外合我要拿台獨22項的認定的意見書跟國會擴權法案做四個比較第一個法律定義不明"},{"start":10489.025,"end":10506.238,"text":"在中國他的台獨定義是沒有上限的中國說你台獨你就台獨其實在台灣通過的國會擴權法案所謂的藐視國會罪或者是反質詢同樣沒有清楚的定義說你有罪你就可能被入於罪"},{"start":10507.159,"end":10522.664,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":10533.291,"end":10543.814,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10558.177,"end":10579.005,"text":"其實在台灣的國會擴權法案也是包山包海從政府機關從部隊從人民從團體都一樣可能被查水表都能夠巧立明目最後一項少數才會被調查這是中國說的國台辦說只有少數分裂國家者才會是被查辦的對象錯了"},{"start":10580.846,"end":10600.675,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第20會期司法及法制委員會第21會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第23會期司法及法制委員會第23會期"},{"start":10604.196,"end":10632.291,"text":"我要用這四點方面來清楚的論述不是純屬巧合是裡應外合我們希望戰場在國會戰場也在台灣的社會在國會我們全力來抵禦所有顛覆台灣的惡法在社會面我們欲請國人不用怕怕我們共同建立起強大的社會防禦的機制面對中國無所不在的心理戰"},{"start":10633.251,"end":10641.154,"text":"法律戰有備才能無患危機就是轉機謝謝部長今天的說明我後續的那個時間到沒有辦法論述但是在這個組織法的修法我會在後續來表達我的意見好謝謝主席謝謝部長因為後面沒有人還是委員你有需要再繼續沒關係後面沒有人好謝謝好那我進入下面"},{"start":10657.521,"end":10658.882,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":10676.798,"end":10704.93,"text":"我之前花了比較多的時間去整理司法人員的出走潮這十年司法院各級法院人員的出走潮辭職是達到575人那經過今天的機會我去整理了法務部各級檢查機關人員這十年的辭職統計也不遑多讓高達431人所以不管是司法院或法務部加總起來我們的司法人員都是台灣培育的專業者"},{"start":10706.431,"end":10709.194,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案案例確實暴增五年成長了45.7%以一百一十二年度"},{"start":10723.527,"end":10749.559,"text":"全國新收的各類的案件數來到85萬5610件當中的電信詐欺案就有將近23萬件電信詐欺案成長五年成長了百分之六百六十以至於現在我們檢察人員所偵辦的詐欺案件占所有其他類別已經高達四分之一了"},{"start":10750.439,"end":10751.761,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":10763.22,"end":10792.5,"text":"但是現在檢察官的緣額即使行政院來協助增補人力我們有個中長程的人力增補分四年111年到114年可以禁用增補這是法定增補600人左右但是到目前為止那是沒戶期了這五年檢察官平均負擔案量增加一個人是增加62%我就不贅述了下一頁所以除了"},{"start":10793.5,"end":10799.844,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案案案件的分流,用偵測檢察官助理的方式來協助處理大量輕罪的案件,減少案件的羈押。第二點,能夠有效來調節大量的濫訴。"},{"start":10818.175,"end":10828.844,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院及法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":10848.194,"end":10870.352,"text":"四十三條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第20會期司法及法制委員會第21會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第23會期"},{"start":10876.597,"end":10879.499,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":10900.769,"end":10902.051,"text":"六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":10910.552,"end":10939.313,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案案件,因此用禁用制來提升機關用人的靈活性,而且能夠避掉這個總原額規範的上限。是不是我們現在比較能夠來試圖下手的方式?的確是是這樣,但是因為我們,即使我們如果說檢察官助理入法,那跟我們總原額法是不是完全焊隔,完全是沒辦法走出另外一條的一個路嗎?我覺得我們可以再來研究一下。"},{"start":10940.273,"end":10948.715,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":10962.512,"end":10966.676,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件事宜（法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案案件事宜"},{"start":10988.416,"end":10991.878,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案》案。"},{"start":11010.711,"end":11020.794,"text":"六十六條的過程沒有辦法一步到位的同時我剛剛提出的很多減量減壓的方式我們都不要放棄努力好嗎辛苦大家也謝謝主席給我多的時間謝謝"},{"start":11030.595,"end":11034.197,"text":"三條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":11049.764,"end":11072.904,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．一條線上因為他現在就是類似美國的長臂管轄那這樣我國的國民到其他國家或是我國國民在這邊做了什麼事他會不會在其他國家被抓走我想這才是我們現在擔心的點啦因為你們剛剛一直講說司法權急不急於台灣這可能這應該不是現在的問題吧所以可能麻煩部長去參考一下那個有關長臂管轄就意外效力的部分好不好好謝謝部長"},{"start":11074.959,"end":11093.099,"text":"所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢,詢問結束。委員諮詢的時候,要求提供的相關資料會書面答覆,請相關機關緊述、送交個別委員,還有本會。委員劉曉玲所提的書面諮詢列入記錄、刊登公報"},{"start":11100.159,"end":11103.623,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 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部警政署刑事警察局警政監蔡坤毅6月13日教育部中次長葉秉成率同有關人員主席科教級委員之恩6月12日報告實相應宣讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定"},{"start":2008.513,"end":2029.893,"text":"二、教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部內政部警政署列起就如何有效防範毒品入侵校園及減少暴力案件,進行專題報告並被質詢。懇請由委員洪峰凱等21人提出質詢。軍醫教育部部長鄭英耀、法務部檢察司司長郭永發、內政部警政署刑事警察局警政監蔡昆毅及相關人員及其答覆說明。"},{"start":2030.393,"end":2053.114,"text":"第五委員萬美玲提出書面質詢決定於報告及詢討完畢。 六委員所提書面資料或相關經歷列入記錄並刊登公報。 三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未解答附部分及相關機關介紹與書面等答覆。 通過臨時提案三項。 六、三日報告事項教育部政務次長葉秉成列席就少子化趨勢下高教應如何經營創新及提升競爭力進行專題報告並備質詢。"},{"start":2055.536,"end":2075.823,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 本議程由委員萬美玲等22人提出質詢捐捐教育部中次長葉秉成及相關人員及其答覆說明。 另由委員吳春成提出書面質詢決定。 已報告及選達完畢。 二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並開燈公報。 三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分。 請相關機關介述與書面答覆。 宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2079.485,"end":2093.824,"text":"好,請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或是遺漏之錯?好,沒有,那我們就議事錄確定那今天議程有兩個我們就繼續審查偏遠地區學校教育發展條例相關的修正草案共識案"},{"start":2094.445,"end":2121.127,"text":"然後包括委員柯志恩等18人還有魯明哲等24人委員馬文君等17人還有委員盧仙怡等20人然後第二個是我們繼續審查國民體育法的相關草案共思案包括委員柯志恩等17人包括委員莊瑞雄等21人還有委員蔡其昌等21人還有委員何新村等20人擬具的這個國民體育法的部分條文修正案"},{"start":2121.647,"end":2131.677,"text":"那我們現在就要進行逐條的一個審查我們首先介紹在場的委員我們再其次介紹我們與會的一個官員我們在場委員我們有范雲委員林一綺委員盧憲一委員秀寶委員陳培韻委員郭玉琴委員"},{"start":2143.152,"end":2151.897,"text":"吳立華委員張雅玲委員吳佩奕委員好謝謝我們教育部的官員有有今天是政務次長張亮萬堅"},{"start":2154.329,"end":2183.168,"text":"還有我們的彭副園署長、曾世忠署長還有教育部的各司長跟處長我就不一一介紹了首先如果委員有臨時的提案的話我們就在上午10點30分前提出處理提案的時候若提案的委員還有連署的委員均不在場我們就原例不予討論我們現在因為有在場委員要求要做一些廣泛討論本席才是每個人三分鐘而且一次"},{"start":2184.485,"end":2184.946,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2199.592,"end":2203.576,"text":"主席好還有大家我想先謝謝主席召委安排這個題目我是覺得這個題目一直是非常重要那我之前有幫忙照顧花蓮的時候也非常關心偏遠地區的學校的教育"},{"start":2215.208,"end":2241.124,"text":"那大家可能一些委員知道就是上一任的時候代理教師的權益我也爭取了非常多那基本上就是能夠做到讓代理教師的年輕的人才不會因為這個制度不好而流失那也事實上也讓代理教師跟一般的教師幾乎就是除了資格之外待遇是平等的那我想我看了就是研究了今天的修正的版本"},{"start":2242.064,"end":2245.025,"text":"條文本身的用意是好的他希望能夠讓偏鄉的代理教師能夠有一個轉正的機會這大家當然都支持"},{"start":2260.112,"end":2285.203,"text":"但是這個方式是什麼就是是要納進由學校治病而且是所有偏鄉的代理老師然後方法上還有設全額補助的師培班那這個部分好像就是各界都有一些不同的看法那老師說我有請教我們教師公會代理教師團體還有比較關心偏鄉的朋友那大家的看法就是說這個用意是好的"},{"start":2286.723,"end":2304.632,"text":"偏鄉代理條例我們通過之發展有些東西的確是需要檢討可是是不是我們今天這個條文的方法的那各界都有蠻多的憂慮那我聽完之後我自己覺得就不可能在我們討論這個部分應該要先給我們幾個比較詳細的答案針對第一個偏鄉代理教室的比例是多少那真的是不足夠嗎流動率偏高嗎那第二個"},{"start":2315.618,"end":2316.519,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2335.222,"end":2346.17,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人�"},{"start":2363.703,"end":2383.669,"text":"那上一次那個詢答的時候其實我有問其中一部分包含就是說教育部是不是有其他的方案那教育部後來有部分答詢我但是還沒有完全解答那我想就是今天這個條文如果沒有搭配9任方案的話那我也覺得蠻爭議的"},{"start":2385.509,"end":2394.515,"text":"教育部自己前面備案的有餘而就開給其他全額補助的這是教育部給我的一個解方我覺得好像爭議會比較少一點當然整體來講我覺得我們這個偏鄉的這個發展條例用意良好通過之後到目前為止好像少了一個整體的檢討今天謝謝趙偉排這個部分我覺得我們應該要"},{"start":2408.644,"end":2410.827,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":2423.541,"end":2424.562,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":2442.372,"end":2442.893,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2468.342,"end":2473.244,"text":"謝謝主席偏鄉教育發展條例這個其實之前專報的時候有討論過那就是因為條例上路了6年其實不管是在教學的現場學生家長或是老師其實對這個條例上路之後都有很多的想法跟意見那今天呢我們的這個修法的條例的版本呢其實有好幾個"},{"start":2492.274,"end":2512.307,"text":"我會認為在前面廣泛討論非常重要就是因為就我來看我認為好幾條之間其實相互都是有所牽動跟關聯的所以我還是會回到說條例上路已經6年多了那在專案報告當中其實各個委員大概都提出了很多的意見跟問題那教育部自己針對條例上路之後這6年來我們有沒有一個整體通盤的檢討因為我想就之前的討論當中有一些的檢討的改善"},{"start":2521.793,"end":2540.402,"text":"可能是要透過行政的有些是中央的有些是地方政府例如說這個師資不足當然是一個最根本的問題但究竟我們是要用代理教師還是我們要來增加正式教師的員額編制那教育部有沒有跟各個縣市的地方政府來通盤的檢討討論過因為過去我在台北市議會其實這個教師的問題一直都是必須要去"},{"start":2548.306,"end":2553.548,"text":"趕快想辦法的那每一年在討論都是那我們怎麼樣讓哪些代理教師可以先進來可是這都不是長久之道那到底政府我們自己的政府自己還是要讓正式教師的員額要把它慢慢提升上來那教育部有沒有跟縣市政府討論過他們需要什麼樣的幫助所以還是會認為我們需要一個教育部自己啦"},{"start":2570.353,"end":2573.574,"text":"提出一個整體通盤的檢討,這裡面不要關在辦公室自己做,也沒有去跟團體討論,因為光是我看到其中第八條、第十二條,都有團體都有不同的意見,但是到今天為目前為止,我們要審法條之前,我們手邊都沒有資料,都沒有資訊,教育部你們去了解了沒有?"},{"start":2590.919,"end":2598.422,"text":"各個團體之間目前有共識的是哪些還沒有共識的是哪些你們都沒有提供我們資訊這樣子就要去修法讓它成為一個通案我覺得會相當的危險所以我是希望等會希望主席能夠才是交付了一個時間可以告訴我們你們什麼時候要做通盤的檢討"},{"start":2609.286,"end":2611.849,"text":"這些檢討的報告資料出來我認為我們在進行個別細節條文的修改跟討論我也覺得是比較妥善的否則六年前這個條例上路之後我們大致上大家都認為可以一勞永逸但確實條文條例沒有辦法"},{"start":2624.901,"end":2647.719,"text":"根本的改變問題那就是在行政當中例如說哪些部分我們有沒有預算再給地方政府要來支持老師跟現場教學的現場我們可以哪些的方法來幫助這個我真的是認為說在討論修法以前我們要有更多相關的了解所以我希望主席等會要請教育部要來提供相關的這個資訊我們再來進行細節的討論好謝謝好謝謝吳佩儀委員接下來我們請張雅琳委員"},{"start":2665.246,"end":2687.293,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好我們今天要來討論這個偏鄉、偏遠地區的學校教育發展條例但是我也是要呼應前面幾位委員說的事情就是說我們其實到今天要做這些討論的時候我好像還沒有收到相關的細節這些影響性的評估到底是什麼我們還沒有來做一些相關的溝通就要進入足條裡面我自己會覺得非常的擔心因為坦白說"},{"start":2688.654,"end":2694.329,"text":"我自己其實以前就是每一年我基本上都會去花蓮、台東那所以其實現場也是會有聽到說"},{"start":2697.472,"end":2720.909,"text":"這些老師他們不想離開的原因其實非常複雜那其實有可能是因為社區的關係有可能是交通的關係有可能是醫療的關係都有可能會影響這老師願不願意留下來不然就會常常發生就是說我們可能經過了一個暑假老師就跑曠光只剩下校長的問題所以我們還是要回到根本就是現場我們有沒有收集意見啦現場的意見是什麼然後有沒有跟這些相關的團體"},{"start":2723.19,"end":2724.692,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2743.527,"end":2765.82,"text":"我們現在還是會有這個流動率我到現在其實我也並不是那麼清楚說我們到底做了這件事情之後我們每年的流動率有沒有下降哪一些部分是有效哪一些部分是要再做調整的這個部分真的要請教育部要提供一個完整的報告不然直接進入法律的修正其實並不知道對於現場是一個注意還是一個阻力"},{"start":2767.185,"end":2792.531,"text":"那再來就是說我希望就是我看到這個我們好像應該是每三年根據我們之前應該是要去做一些檢討啦就是說我之前也有聽到國教署是有說他有跟已經有開了幾場會議但是坦白說那個會議的結論到底是什麼這部分是不是可以有一些完整的報告是待會可以提供呢還是什麼時候可以提供讓我們大家可以更清楚的去了解那最後就是說"},{"start":2794.672,"end":2813.43,"text":"我們現在的這個代理師資到底我們是需要讓他變成是轉正呢還是要用透過現在提供一些福利的方式讓他來持續的進行這個部分我現在都完全的不清楚啦所以就是希望說主席可以才是是不是請教育部提供相關的回覆我們再來進行詳細的討論謝謝好謝謝莊雅琳委員接下來我們請林怡金委員"},{"start":2826.725,"end":2852.912,"text":"謝謝召委我想今天針對這個修法我想到處奔走跟中央要資源當然這是我們民意代表的天職那今天柯召委跟諸委員透過修法的方式要為地方做爭取我想背後的精神是可敬的可是在行政立法這個分立制衡的狀態之下國家資源要怎麼運用恐怕也不是幾段法律文字能夠做精準的拿捏所以我們希望說"},{"start":2853.952,"end":2871.235,"text":"中央可以持續把餅做大可是我們也同時要要求說中央做出來這個餅是好吃的是能吃的如果做大的餅虛有其表那實際上根本也難以下驗那這也絕對不符合國人的期待那餅又大又好吃那做餅的時間"},{"start":2875.779,"end":2894.597,"text":"立委修法必須符合財政紀律法開宗明義所揭示的精神,嚴格控制預算稅入稅出差短,謀求國家永續發展。另一方面本席希望教育部積極統籌資源,朝向大家期待的方向努力。"},{"start":2895.758,"end":2911.621,"text":"大家都耳熟能詳的一句話窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子這一直是我們教育委員會的核心精神那為偏鄉爭取師資也是我們共同目標可是應該採取什麼樣的策略我想大家還可以共同來思考"},{"start":2912.402,"end":2938.193,"text":"那另外我想今天有排審這個國民體育法那我想這個距離上一次的在教育委員會詢答國民體育法其實到今天已經超過兩個月了那這兩個月中間我跟范雲委員有針對國民體育法都有提案可是今天都沒有被排入今天的議程中那想要跟召委建議一下因為由於上一次的詢答跟今天的審查距離的時間較遠"},{"start":2939.494,"end":2953.3,"text":"那如果針對新的修法的問題我想勢必有重新要詢答的必要那如果不重新詢答也應該將本席跟范委員的法律提案放到今天的逐條討論中那否則就會忽略這長達兩個多月的時間裡針對修法提出的新的觀點"},{"start":2957.742,"end":2983.935,"text":"那我們知道說在一般的程序中也並不可能在短時間之內針對同一部法律來做出連續的審查所以有機會審查法案的時候我覺得理當就應該進到委員會來那的修法提案來做出通盤的審查跟檢視我想這不僅是對個別委員的尊重那也是對修法完整性的這個重視那我知道當然召委"},{"start":2984.315,"end":3000.669,"text":"可以認為說本席提案方向可能跟蔡奇昌委員的大致相同那只有一些立法文字有些許的差異所以沒有被排進來逐條審查並不會有實質的影響可是本席想要在這裡反映的是說法律文字往往是師知好理"},{"start":3001.329,"end":3005.473,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":3034.943,"end":3054.766,"text":"好 謝謝主席排審關於今天的法案討論可是關於這個法案討論我想我們所有人都有一個共識就是偏鄉條例本來就確實需要討論也需要修正還有包含國體法也是可是如果沒有更廣泛的討論或是更仔細的條文評估所有的討論我都會認為流於形式怎麼說"},{"start":3055.467,"end":3076.514,"text":"以我認識的偏鄉條例來說目前教育部因為沒有相關的版本提出但是我們在現場看到很多實際上的問題我只舉一個例子過往我們辦公室在協助非常多地方創生還有地方社工而這些人他們可能就是落在所謂學校附近的社區可以作為支持學校教育系統發展非常重要的人力但是在過往偏鄉條例裡面確實"},{"start":3078.215,"end":3095.629,"text":"第十一條有說可以開放偏鄉學校根據實際的需求增聘師資但是校長到底有沒有這樣彈性的人事權導致於我們很多過往教育問題都只有在教育系統裡面解決那現在已經有非常多立法委員也都有意識到所有的教育問題都不能只有在教育系統裡面解決"},{"start":3096.149,"end":3096.529,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3126.049,"end":3128.771,"text":"立法院第十四條條文修正草案案。 立法院第十四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3150.811,"end":3151.691,"text":"第八條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":3171.958,"end":3200.361,"text":"現在的這三年跟未來的三年跟前面的三年已經完全的不一樣我相信教育部也都有相關的認知因此我們也非常期待在相關的全國會議當中一定也要討論到這件事情但是很可惜在今天的版本裡面也沒有提到所以我們會認為今天的討論版本當然非常感謝主席對於偏鄉教育的關心但是我要說很多的事情我們都沒有全面的討論甚至相關的公聽會相關的座談會或是更多地方專家學者的聲音或者是老師的聲音甚至是偏鄉"},{"start":3201.181,"end":3202.202,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3229.415,"end":3253.302,"text":"謝謝主席我們今天要審查的是偏遠地區學校發展的這個相關的條例還有相關委員的提案那我們整個偏遠地區學校發展條例從107年制定到現在目前執行的是第二期要執行到112學年度但是在這個從107年到現在其實我發現教育部呢並沒有做一個全面性的滾動檢討"},{"start":3254.622,"end":3258.464,"text":"包括說我們將來要執行第三期之前我們之前所執行的成效還有我們需要去注意的這些部分我們都沒有跟地方充分的討論跟我們所有的相關的團體來討論所以本席也很希望說在這個審法案之前我們應該做整體的這個評估到底我們如何修才是最全面的才是最整體的整個的檢討的進"},{"start":3279.995,"end":3284.898,"text":"計劃我不知道教育部這邊你們本身是怎麼規劃的從我們107年到現在是不是有怎樣相關的數據可以提供委員們參考或者說你們本身定的期程是什麼希望說能夠在這個偏鄉教育的這個執行會有比較大的注意也避免是掛一漏萬那這次的提案呢有很多是增加預算的修正案例如說是第16條第21條"},{"start":3304.147,"end":3307.75,"text":"那這些相關的這些預算經費都必須要教育部這邊來評估到底我們的預算足不足以支應因為預算的這個金額本來就很有限應該要很審慎的評估說相關的規劃才不會去排擠到其他的教育預算其實委員的提案呢就是反映地方的現況地方的需求"},{"start":3324.266,"end":3330.509,"text":"但是往往會不夠全面不夠完整那整個的城鄉差距造成說說我們教師他們在選擇工作上他們的想法也會造成說教師需求的不均衡那到底現在我們的儲備教師在我們這個城鄉差距上的這個偏頗造成說我們有的地方很多教師在等缺額"},{"start":3345.615,"end":3366.516,"text":"但是很多學校是找不到教師這樣子應該要做怎樣個徹底的規劃來協助才不會一直有這樣子的現象來存在那在這整個通盤檢討的這個修正之前我們是不是也應該要充分的去辦理相關的公聽會或做談會來聽取各方的意見希望有更完整的意見進來之後我們會長來提出"},{"start":3368.618,"end":3371.739,"text":"整體的充分的討論之後才能夠對我們相關的這些修法的這個程序呢是很完善的是很完備的那在這邊呢我再一次的提醒教育部我們在我們第三期的執行之前你們相關的這些檢討這次期程請規劃出來你們也必須有這個義務提供完整的這樣的數據來給委員們參考"},{"start":3391.883,"end":3409.867,"text":"才能在這次真正要修法之前大家都能夠是充分了解地方需求以及我們所有相關的規範那能夠對整個的法案整個的條例是最完整的然後最全面的而且是對地方最有幫助的以上謝謝好謝謝陳秀寶委員我們接下來請郭育晴委員"},{"start":3422.641,"end":3434.672,"text":"大家早安其實今天非常謝謝我們的召委特別有特別安排這樣子的一個就是偏鄉條例的一個修正的一個草案的一個說明但是我記得我在之前在質詢的時候其實我是針對這個偏鄉地區的這個"},{"start":3438.016,"end":3458.036,"text":"代理老師施肢的部分我也提出我個人的看法我們知道在偏鄉不管是偏鄉的環境能不能夠留得住老師其實有很大的原因是包含整個所有的他們的心思的體制還有包含他們的交通或者是他們的住宿以及他們的家籍的部分"},{"start":3458.896,"end":3484.926,"text":"這個可能都會是一個比較大的一個問題那我想今天特別有這樣子的一個一個說明這樣子的一個會議其實從107年剛剛其實有委員提到到現在其實我也覺得應該要更廣納更多的一些不同的聲音不管是座談會也好、公聽會也好因為每一個地方的偏鄉的學校他們自己本身的樣態其實是比較不一樣的"},{"start":3487.207,"end":3493.834,"text":"我剛剛也有特別提到在完整失資的部分是不是真的能夠去符合偏鄉地區失資不夠穩定的這樣子的一個改進我舉個例子來講"},{"start":3503.164,"end":3509.106,"text":"還有就是這些代理老師如果考進來之後他們是不是能夠久任我舉個例子來講衛福部其實在這個111年特別有做了一個修正喔他們是公費醫師他們也必須要綁10年也就是說他們會希望他們是要落地生根我們當然不希望就是如果因為個別的一些條例的修正然後增加了這些所謂的失智的一些員額"},{"start":3529.272,"end":3542.206,"text":"但是最後這些老師他可能因為沒有特別綁定他們的時間或者是說以現行來講可能以五年為主那五年到第五年的第一天他會不會就已經離開了偏鄉那我想這個最主要的還是會影響到"},{"start":3546.591,"end":3549.834,"text":"其他偏鄉學校的舊學的學生他們的一個所謂的舊學的一個權益所以其實我個人認為在整體當然因為偏鄉的剛剛我提到的就是樣態是不一樣的我希望這個整個所有的主條的部分或者是說有一些必須要做更改是不是能夠再凝聚更多的一些共識傾聽更多的聲音包含"},{"start":3572.875,"end":3574.315,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3598.766,"end":3601.251,"text":"好 謝謝我們郭玉琴委員接下來我們請伍麗華委員"},{"start":3612.223,"end":3627.737,"text":"謝謝教委主席大家早安最近這些年少子化或者是裁併校的新聞從來沒有少過那特別是偏遠地區的學生其實是佔比全國學生數的4.5%"},{"start":3630.64,"end":3640.405,"text":"所以六年前我們有了偏鄉教育發展條例其實對偏鄉來說是一個契機這當中原住民學生佔偏鄉是18.6%遠遠高於原住民佔全國學生3.8%這樣的一個佔比"},{"start":3650.911,"end":3655.693,"text":"所以我其實在上一屆我就有提出偏鄉教育條例的一個修法版本但是很可惜沒有通過那麼這個會期我也很遺憾因為我也來不及今天並沒有把我的版本併案討論但是我還是很期待說因為這個問題關於偏鄉大逃亡行政大逃亡"},{"start":3678.624,"end":3692.513,"text":"其實這個問題可以說是相當的嚴重那偏鄉呢留不住人包括老師跟學生這個問題又更加的嚴重所以我們特別是希望說透過行政機關的一個討論好好的盤點"},{"start":3695.635,"end":3707.238,"text":"以我們這個條例第19條的規定每三年檢討一次我們很希望有一個全國性的意見蒐整跟行政機關針對每一個問題可以做的一個行政對策那我們一直都希望說能夠看到這樣的資料去實際的解決現場的問題那所以在這邊關於留不住人"},{"start":3721.241,"end":3740.451,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 包括老師怎麼久任甚至是像很偏遠的地區像斯馬庫斯在我們的國家竟然有一個地方的學校到現在因為土地建物的問題到目前都還是一個不合法存在的學校我想這許許多多的問題都必須要透過"},{"start":3743.012,"end":3744.453,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等19人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等19人擬具第18條條文修正草案"},{"start":3780.699,"end":3794.612,"text":"謝謝主席那我想今天教委排這個偏鄉地區的這個學校教育發展條例非常的重要那剛才我聽幾位委員的發言我們都同樣的注重這樣的一個問題基本上大概沒有太大的這個不同的意見"},{"start":3795.533,"end":3823.67,"text":"那其實我們現在所有提的提出來的問題幾乎都是教育現場我們非常了解的狀況那但是我要講的是說我們要改善偏鄉的所有的這些教育上的問題不是口說而已我們就要把它付諸行動那怎麼樣透過修法那可以讓改善這些現況我想這是最重要的那如果我們一直沒有辦法進入真的來做一個修法的動作我想我們所提的這些問題它永遠都會存在那剛才還有提到就是"},{"start":3825.751,"end":3846.743,"text":"關於就是增加正式老師的這個部分我想這個剛剛有委員提到正式老師這個是大家所期盼的可是我們就知道其實教育部最清楚我想那個張亮次長也很清楚要增加正式老師這件事情目前有很大的困難度在所以代理代課教師以及在偏鄉自聘等等我們才會有這些因應的對策出來所以要唯一"},{"start":3847.163,"end":3855.006,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人"},{"start":3875.413,"end":3899.25,"text":"經過這幾年的實施下來我們發現偏鄉教育的現場看來我們提供的誘因跟資源依然是不足的教育部當然還有特別修訂關於9任獎金很重要但是這看起來是最快明年也才會發放而且要服務滿8年才給7萬塊我們平均一個月729塊我真的覺得少得可憐這樣的誘因不但是不大實在是毫無誘因可言"},{"start":3899.89,"end":3904.433,"text":"最大的問題是缺人、缺學生、缺老師所以我想教育部真的要來思考一下怎麼樣調整相關配套"},{"start":3917.321,"end":3918.322,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3934.634,"end":3959.76,"text":"那通過我們實施審查那如果大家有一些意見或者是教育部有一些不同的想法那我們都可以再把它做一個修正再把它做一個納入那我覺得這才是能夠真正開始關心偏鄉地區的這個學校教育發展那如果說我們還是子瑜就是大家各自發表意見而沒有辦法正式進入諸條審查那我覺得這個不會有一個開端啦所以我建議主席是我們待會正式進入諸條審查以上謝謝"},{"start":3960.96,"end":3964.303,"text":"非常謝謝外媒林委員接下來我們就來開始先審查偏鄉偏遠地區學校教育發展條例我們繼續審查國民體育法相關的修正草案我們現在就開始主條審查我們請議事人員宣讀條文內容他們等一下到我這邊主條審查的時候我會有很多問題他們可以這個部分來做一些的解釋"},{"start":3985.982,"end":4000.548,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校"},{"start":4016.356,"end":4029.026,"text":"我等一下會讓教育部來看看怎麼樣來做討論我是想先建議我們先審那個國民體育法這個主席這樣會不會都沒有尊重大家的意見呢我們五分鐘休息"},{"start":4039.985,"end":4052.234,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":4063.874,"end":4078.024,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案、第十六條條文修正草案、第十七條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、第十八條條文修正草案、"},{"start":4090.839,"end":4100.983,"text":"委員柯志恩等18人提案。18條第二項手具修正為前條及由偏遠地區學校事辦正確。"},{"start":4104.203,"end":4125.698,"text":"徵選方式禁用,其餘同線刑條。 委員魯明哲等24人提案。第八條第二項手續修正委簽調及山地原住民族地區學校資辦徵選方式禁用,其餘同線刑條。 委員魯明哲等24人提案。"},{"start":4129.514,"end":4131.936,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4155.896,"end":4183.882,"text":"來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":4184.687,"end":4202.468,"text":"你們就開始那個好我們現在就是來這個先第八條偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文的修正草案然後有柯志恩委員還有我們盧憲義委員還有我們目前為止是有范玉委員提出了修正動議好不好"},{"start":4204.775,"end":4206.616,"text":"第八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4222.706,"end":4230.669,"text":"全額補助施滋培育相關課程 法條通過後 會有4千多人 教育部對施滋需求到底是什麼 因為我們少子化之後 到底需求有沒有到這麼多人"},{"start":4244.594,"end":4269.405,"text":"另一個部分是因為這個條文並沒有綁就是說他得到這個教師資格之後他會不會留在偏鄉所以我也會很擔心就是當然就是他已經在偏鄉服務然後表現不錯那我們開了這個門而且讓他全額補助等於是形同公費生我們本來就有這個公費生鼓勵到偏鄉服務的制度那到底原來那個部分出了什麼問題"},{"start":4270.866,"end":4298.149,"text":"最重要的事情是我也看到其實我們這個條文是要求教育部要每隔是不是三年就做一次偏鄉的教育的一個報告檢討那教育部這個部分是不是有執行那結果怎麼樣那我們這次難得要修一個偏鄉條例那是一個好事可是如果頭痛一筒腳痛一筒沒有全盤思考的話那其實我會擔心反而會有不好的影響或是該修的部分沒有修到那教育部是不是能夠先回應"},{"start":4300.036,"end":4317.493,"text":"我們要教育部先回應還是我們請因為根據第八條我們請提案委員還有大家有意見我們請教育部統一來做一個回應好不好這樣會比較省時間好來我們請盧憲毅委員好謝謝主席因為我看到他們的報告就是說4705人可是我想知道細項因為我是來自山頂原住民地區"},{"start":4318.294,"end":4342.404,"text":"那3D原住民地區的人數有這麼多嗎?我看了很懷疑那是用這個人數來拒絕我們這個法案的話實在是不能接受所以我想知道更詳盡的我們實際偏遠的地區還有比如說我們的蘭嶼就是離島的地區這種代理教室的一個緣額希望他們能夠受到我們的全額補助 謝謝"},{"start":4344.159,"end":4360.983,"text":"導致教師的緣額全額補助是盧憲憶委員,還有誰?我猜大家意見真是多,來我們先先禮一級委員,等一下先禮一級委員,然後秀寶委員,然後是雅玲,然後再是裴瑜,然後再是佩奕,然後最後是吳麗華委員。你們大家好。"},{"start":4368.284,"end":4381.612,"text":"對嘛,整合一下有講過的這個部分,我們可不可以,這樣我們才有辦法,如果說大家的意見都蠻雷同的話,我們就請教育部因為到最後的結果,教育部就統一來幫我們大家做一個示意好不好,來,怡婧。好,謝謝,謝謝昭緯。"},{"start":4384.053,"end":4406.473,"text":"我想今天審查這個偏遠地區學校教育現在是第八條那我想這個都是要要求這個政府要因應這個特定的需求來提高預算的編列那我剛剛有提到說在新政立法分立制衡的狀態之下那國家資源要怎麼運用可能要有整體的那個盤整"},{"start":4408.755,"end":4435.617,"text":"那我想根據這個第八條我想柯昭偉跟盧憲一委員所提的這個法律修正案這兩位的修正的方向我想可能會影響現行師資培育人數的評估跟管控因為在因少子女化的衝擊之下我們所評估的這個儲備教師人數會遠低於偏遠地區學校自辦徵"},{"start":4436.678,"end":4438.1,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4454.575,"end":4457.578,"text":"條例第十六條文修正草案 條例第十六條文修正草案 條例第十六條文修正草案"},{"start":4477.079,"end":4477.419,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4507.8,"end":4527.194,"text":"我們很多教師他在選擇他工作的這個單位經常就是我們聽到就是說在都市都會的地區呢很多教師在等缺額那但是在偏鄉我們找不到教師那這樣子的整個人力的我們施培的這個規劃我們整個人力的配置到底要用一個怎樣的方式來"},{"start":4528.695,"end":4529.816,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":4549.278,"end":4577.845,"text":"表現優良就可以來參加全額補助的這個私資培育的這個課程的話如果說我們有其他的方式就是去領選他是不是也表示說我們用不同的管道經用的代理教師他可以得到同樣的保障但是不是每個人都可以只要我代理滿四個學期之後我就可以有這樣的方式成為教師而且我想表達就是說"},{"start":4578.365,"end":4590.774,"text":"他用這樣的方式取得了教師資格之後我們如何保證他繼續留在偏鄉來執教這個部分我也是希望說我們可以考慮得比較仔細一點好 謝謝然後我們接下來請張雅琳委員"},{"start":4594.074,"end":4621.67,"text":"主要是說我們雖然教育部有去推估可能自辦徵選代理教師的人數是4705人但是我們有沒有去推估原住民區域的學校到底需要多少人然後再來就是說這些可能符合學校自辦徵選的代理教師如果都納入這個本條例的公費補助對象的話那我們有沒有去估算說可能會增加的經費是多少財源如何籌措那這部分就是再請教育部來做一個說明"},{"start":4626.705,"end":4628.486,"text":"傷害門診保險金、私人保險金、生活福祉保險金。"},{"start":4639.714,"end":4665.81,"text":"目前這個版本寫的是偏遠地區學校自辦徵選方式禁用那如果有人寫的版本還包含山地原住民族地區學校自辦徵選方式禁用這個寫法目前有跟地方政府溝通過嗎因為這個相關的費用跟原額其實會跟縣市政府有關那縣市政府現在的立場是什麼其實我們也需要教一部的說明如果沒有縣市政府的立場說明我覺得會對縣市政府的相關經費造成很大的衝擊但是"},{"start":4668.832,"end":4687.412,"text":"接下來就是關於他們的進修費用由公費權而補助那真的就是變成公費生可是目前公費生有另外一個困境其實很多公費生進到所謂偏鄉社區之後不管他是山地或是非山地最大的困境是整個社區支持環境是不夠的所以公費生很多人現在可能是寧可賠了錢"},{"start":4688.433,"end":4691.277,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4707.677,"end":4709.678,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具"},{"start":4731.302,"end":4749.297,"text":"然後接下來我們請吳佩奕委員這個我也是希望等會教育部可以回答第一個這一個這一條的方向大體的方向其實是我們還是希望可以增加偏向地區學校的師資方向上面我們是認同的"},{"start":4749.617,"end":4758.844,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4777.017,"end":4796.654,"text":"條例第八條開了,你們應該要有一個粗估的數字,究竟這個數字人數是多少?會不會對於我們現行的儲備失資造成衝擊?我想這應該是現在手邊就可以有的數字,這第一點。第二點我想要問的是,第八條假設沒有修,以現行來說我們的這個"},{"start":4800,"end":4826.318,"text":"代理教師能不能來參加這個之前的培訓課程我看起來應該是可以另外如果是要補助的話你現在公費助學金分發服務辦法這個計畫裡面這公費生我們是不是就有在鼓勵他們要來投入偏鄉的教育就以現行來說你有沒有其他行政的措施可以去達到我們希望的這個大的方向因為我們現在擔心的是"},{"start":4826.658,"end":4827.058,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4843.606,"end":4866.304,"text":"這個會不會對我們現行的儲備資資造成衝擊那衝擊是多大我們有沒有辦法因應學校有沒有辦法因應教學現場有沒有辦法因應這個我就剛剛講了我覺得教育部我現在手邊都沒有這些具體的資料要有評估我們要先有評估這一條才能辦法來討論否則我還是會擔心如果門開太大門開太大反而造成更大的衝擊好 謝謝好 我們接下來請吳麗華委員"},{"start":4873.961,"end":4886.994,"text":"條例的第八條我這邊修正動議室有提出三個部分也想聽聽看教育行政主管機關這邊的意見在第一項的部分"},{"start":4888.055,"end":4904.941,"text":"因為在偏遠地區學校發展條例的第五條他是只有針對主管機關採公開甄選方式禁用的代理教師他的再聘次數是可以不受中小學兼任代課及代理教師聘任辦法"},{"start":4905.461,"end":4906.362,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4921.318,"end":4938.848,"text":"第二項的部分因為它原本的條文它的補助課程沒有適用偏遠地區學校自辦甄選的方式所禁用的現職代理教師所以怕代理教師權益保障不均等所以特別在這個地方增加把它寫進去偏遠地區的學校教師"},{"start":4942.03,"end":4958.736,"text":"第三項是希望延續原條文的第二項精神我是希望以偏遠學校服務年資作為取得教師資格的要件就是三年內與偏遠地區學校實際服務滿四學期者以上三個意見 謝謝"},{"start":4960.177,"end":4985.344,"text":"好 謝謝所有委員的意見我還是再一次的強調教育部應該對於大家這麼多委員關切的這個偏鄉教育法應該在更早的時間把教育部的評估意見充分的跟委員來做一個溝通讓大家知道到底教育部的想法還有委員想法彼此能夠做一些更多的一個溝通那你看今天大家都有一些相同的一個想法我覺得教育部應該特別是我們張亮萬堅委員"},{"start":4993.22,"end":4996.128,"text":"他過去當委員的時候你能夠接受這樣教育部的說法嗎?"},{"start":4998.888,"end":5006.852,"text":"我們現在請次長對剛剛我們所有委員的發言來做一個回應好 謝謝趙偉的指教我想首先跟大家表達歉意因為我剛來然後這個詢答是5月2號那我也看了5月2號一些詢答的意見事實上跟我們今天縮帖的內容差不了多少但是就是說因為我們禮拜四接到要排案之後我也跟我們的同仁講說趕快"},{"start":5026.781,"end":5036.523,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5055.706,"end":5058.989,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 公費生投入偏鄉地區教室行列保障學生授教權益"},{"start":5082.486,"end":5084.447,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5098.072,"end":5121.439,"text":"偏遠地區的學校覺得那邊不是他應該久留的地方但是因為九二一地震之後他看到那邊的殘破看到學生的需要他被感動了所以他從心裡面說我要留在那邊後來他真的留下來了所以我是覺得針對這個偏遠地區的資資培育問題還是要有相當的熱情或者說比較固定的公費資助那我很抱歉我也跟我們的同仁講說"},{"start":5122.419,"end":5126.624,"text":"第13期偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第13期偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":5137.316,"end":5138.137,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":5156.012,"end":5174.891,"text":"競速提出有效對策,讓偏遠地區學校對於失智流動率偏高的問題提出對策。另外一個地方政府的部分我們會去協調,盡量開正式缺,讓代理教師率能夠降低。"},{"start":5175.452,"end":5204.762,"text":"目前統計出來一般的學校雖然少子化衝擊大概15%左右那署長跟我說這個偏遠地區的代理教師啊比例啊在20%以上甚至有的高達27%所以這個也是我們希望將來有機會跟地方政府溝通的時候能夠用什麼誘因來鼓勵他們能夠開缺最近地方開缺的情況不錯啦那偏遠地區希望也能夠加強謝謝好對於那個教育部的意見有沒有意見葉原執委員"},{"start":5207.571,"end":5227.328,"text":"那個次長那個你剛講說要鼓勵開缺但現在問題應該不是開缺的問題吧應該是沒有人想要去對不對所以並沒有回答到問題啦然後第二個就是上一次我在跟前部長潘文忠部長諮詢的時候特別有提到現在教育部對於我們縣市政府的偏遠學校是用總額管制"},{"start":5228.129,"end":5228.389,"text":"偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":5243.542,"end":5260.635,"text":"所以新北市如果說要增加一個學校就要從別的地方扣掉一個學校手心手背都是肉就非常難做決定那我們今天討論這個法案就是希望說偏遠學校可以得到好的福利由政府來出資嘛但是如果你有一個總額管制的話其實"},{"start":5262.336,"end":5288.408,"text":"並沒有幫助到有一些需要幫助的學校。」我不知道說這一點次長有沒有掌握因為上一次潘仁中部長跟我講說未來會打破總和管制會用實質認定就是說舉例來講上限是200的話假設又發現有一個學校是符合偏遠學校的認定的話是直接用外加的就不會要求說一定要先扣一個再加一個進來不知道次長你這一點有沒有掌握好 謝謝有關偏遠地區說偏遠地區這個問題我們請署長來回答好不好 來"},{"start":5292.765,"end":5311.873,"text":"馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。 馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正"},{"start":5317.189,"end":5339.504,"text":"10個老師有36%,也就是3.6個,100個老師,總合加起來蘭嶼那個島有36個是代理老師,一般地區15個,所以太高。這個缺誰這樣開?以我以前當局長的話,我在決定,就是縣市政府可以決定開正式專任的缺。"},{"start":5341.969,"end":5366.823,"text":"關委員可能會覺得不是啊或怎麼樣這絕對是地方的權責可以開正式圈為什麼這樣講你今天如果把一個權限的拿來當平均說低於百分之八就可以然後把權限100多個學校這邊放多少那邊放多少的代理然後用權限來最後告訴我們說他符合準則的百分之八了"},{"start":5367.723,"end":5382.062,"text":"這最近兩年我們不同意這樣我們希望做到盧委員所講的每個學校都要照顧每個學校都要在每個學校都要在百分之八以下有困難沒有關係但是不可以用全線平均"},{"start":5383.727,"end":5408.142,"text":"這個在110學年度是這樣我們體會到這個問題的嚴重不可以這樣在很多屆的委員的合作下我們打破了所以盧偉林關心得很好我們會繼續關心但我特別要提到他一定要看每個學校對於超高代理率的一定要做處理馬上就可以處理那剛才講的開缺的問題我們會跟地方政府一起來努力經過這兩年努力不管正是一般地區或偏遠地區已經開出了9500個缺"},{"start":5413.943,"end":5439.162,"text":"這兩年已經開出9500個學所以大家一起努力了一下他們可能會怕超額但是就六班的學校除非縣市政府想要把那個學校裁並校六班他可能要考慮的只是一班是十個學生五個學生他還是一班按照我們的射算他仍然要一個去呈出來的班他還在"},{"start":5440.103,"end":5464.614,"text":"所以涉算的基礎還在的時候它對於超額的問題相對是小的真正的是可能非山非市甚至即便很大的學校它可能會有超額這個我們理解但是對已經夠小的它也夠偏遠了吧應該要好好照顧正是算是其中一個好的良方當然很多委員也看到一個地區的發展"},{"start":5465.034,"end":5485.044,"text":"如果只是說我給你正式化可能還不夠可能還會有很多的配套啦這個我們也會跟地方一層包含他的創生或社區或家庭我們給他支持可能不是只有老師的問題而已的話我們會跟委員的這個指示方向一起論最後委員剛才問到了一個偏鄉額度的問題那麼偏鄉的這個比例為什麼會有一個比例如果各位委員我們去看縣市怎麼提報你那個區叫偏鄉"},{"start":5495.441,"end":5501.191,"text":"我舉個例南投的埔里地區的埔里國中可以被提是偏鄉當我們一個額度給他的時候"},{"start":5507.732,"end":5536.732,"text":"那個額度不是指說我們好像台灣很特別其他像英國27%美國只有達到還不到15%等等各國家的一個偏鄉這個學者有研究我們還是高於他很多那現在就是說現在是在衡量的時候能不能夠按照真的回到剛剛葉委員講的實際的情況那這個我就不多說補充以上兩點很快跟我們報那上面有很多的點是不是等會討論的時候我再有機會再跟大家回報 謝謝"},{"start":5537.312,"end":5537.529,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5538.735,"end":5566.126,"text":"這就是我提到的嘛 如果教育部能夠剛剛你把你那些意見在我們要審的事你事先來告訴我們跟我們做這個一個所謂資料上的補充大家委員在這個地方就不會根據這麼多的異議來來來做部分我覺得這個真的是教育部請下次我們在審法案的時候可不可以提前一兩天的時間讓各位委員辦公室能夠了解教育部的想法跟意見對不起因為這是提案委員有盧委員盧委員教育部的這些想法你接受嗎還是"},{"start":5568.668,"end":5593.747,"text":"來 我們再給他一個機會來談一下我是希望能夠針對真正我們3D原住民地區的那個代理教室的緣額好不好 因為不可能是這麼多人嘛如果剛剛算了我們3、4個3D鄉一個鄉如果平均有3個學校的話也才不到100位啊 如果這樣算的話粗略的算啦 實際的緣額應該是要分開來算 可以嗎"},{"start":5598.186,"end":5624.461,"text":"好 那我想每個我們這些題再討論下去每個人都有不同的意見我還是請教育部能夠針對我們特別是我們的山地鄉的這些大家所關切的一個問題能夠對他們對這個法條裡面做出更好的那我想這個部分裡面很顯然大家都沒有太大的一個共識因為教育部的部分是認為要維持原條文每個人意見很多那主席做成這樣決議我們是可以保留然後我們擇期再來再來審 可以嗎 委員"},{"start":5627.463,"end":5646.228,"text":"因為這裡沒有太多的意見是教育部沒有給大家充分的一個資料我覺得這樣的部分來說的話但是今天委員充分表達他們對每個條文的一個意見我希望教育部能夠把它帶回去然後呢我們就擇期再對這樣的一個法案能夠再去因為這是大家非常關切的一個問題所以我們第八條的部分裡面我們就是保留我們就會擇期再議"},{"start":5652.042,"end":5672.954,"text":"好 那我們接下來我們是由第12條也是由盧憲毅委員所提出然後由范雲委員提出修正動議好不好 那我們是不是先反映一下意見哪一位好 吳麗華委員第12條好 謝謝張偉在第12條的部分這裡"},{"start":5681.328,"end":5700.745,"text":"有做一個修正動議就是關於人數的部分那我要特別說明一下因為偏鄉條例就是為著偏鄉但是有很多的偏鄉其實是政府的資源很難去觸及到的地方以斯馬庫斯來講"},{"start":5702.739,"end":5717.021,"text":"所以如果說我們在原條例這個人數的部分去做一個限制的時候或者是我們修了又有數字的一個限制那未來就會很麻煩"},{"start":5717.842,"end":5729.119,"text":"因為這個偏鄉條例應該是為偏鄉打開門而不是在創造再一次的限制所以就特別希望說這個部分就是在第12條的第一項的第幾款"},{"start":5734.306,"end":5739.208,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。"},{"start":5758.957,"end":5784.877,"text":"因為現在偏鄉我們在推動文件站或者是之前的一個民宿辦法其實針對偏鄉的困境我們都已經把合法建物的證明文件由結構安全鑑定證明文件來取代所以我覺得例如像偏鄉斯馬庫斯學校這種狀況我覺得這個部分也需要去解套去解決他們實際的問題 以上"},{"start":5795.076,"end":5809.751,"text":"在盧委員的版本裡面提到關於建物的問題但是我要提醒就是我們當然認同這個場地的安全性對於孩子的就學非常非常重要"},{"start":5810.211,"end":5836.144,"text":"但是目前這個版本我們認為到底教育部有沒有跟相關的跨部會討論包含消防的部分、健管的部分各地方政府教育單位的部分到底他們的意見是什麼因為我們現在還是沒有看到相關的說法所以是不是這個部分呢我覺得都還有待更多更深刻的討論把跨部會的意見納進來不然我覺得這樣寫到時候地方政府他們不認賬或者是各個跨部會之間的討論我覺得沒有完整是不行的以上謝謝"},{"start":5841.172,"end":5863.439,"text":"那我其實是做個延伸啦就是說我們現在教育部針對目前這些原住民族的地區學校面臨這些沒有取得實照的建造執照的這些問題的話我們是有做一些盤點嗎因為其實每個地方的屬性地區區歷史緣故等等的有非常多複雜原因所以我想要了解教育部是否有進行盤點而且有進行掌握也有協助這樣"},{"start":5866.054,"end":5867.735,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5876.793,"end":5896.299,"text":"這一條提案委員是希望可以修改讓之後是在得到史照前可以開始使用那我們其實會擔心的會不會有安全的問題因為這個史照它牽涉到消防監管等等相關的那我是在想說會不會是在有些學校個案上面有遇到一些卡關的問題因為像台北市我們在協助一些實驗學校"},{"start":5901.081,"end":5914.474,"text":"時間教育機構在取得教學場所的時候常常也會有卡關的問題所以是不是教育部可以去跟委員來了解個案上面有沒有我們可以協助的地方但倘若要透過修法的話我的意見是我認為這條要保留因為我覺得牽涉到消防監管安全的問題這個姿勢挺大謝謝好還有沒有沒有的話來教育部"},{"start":5925.831,"end":5952.696,"text":"我想有關這一條就是我們很願意就個案的部分能夠協助的部分先做行政的配合當然大家都知道說消防健管這個問題就是對安全生命安全保障很重要所以我們瞭解這個之後我們將來來協調來協助那這一條我們是不建議用修法的方式因為現在這個涉及到內政部的問題那我們會再跟他們來溝通好不好好"},{"start":5955.38,"end":5973.487,"text":"那我們對於現在原住民學校所處的這些學校有這些問題的我們有一些掌握嗎那現在是有哪些方法可以來協助他們嗎目前我們得到的個案是馬庫斯的那個個案那個個案的部分我想兩位我們原住民委員都非常關心那我們就個案的部分我們是不是請署長再來進一步來說明好不好來"},{"start":5977.568,"end":5998.815,"text":"謝謝市長 謝謝召委簡單的說明斯馬庫斯可能會涉及到土地跟建物土地的部分就要跟地方政府建物的部分涉及到箭矢、罩以及消防這次提案有關箭矢、罩的放寬彈性認定跟消防的部分怎麼跟地方政府結合它的消防的檢疫認定這些都會涉及到比較屬於跨部會的確認因為它涉及到安全在一定的專業的認可上"},{"start":6005.137,"end":6012.569,"text":"我們雖然可以同意但是我們今天沒有辦法很完整的分析的話在這邊直接用教文恐怕還是我們再周延一點會更好謝謝"},{"start":6015.08,"end":6035.696,"text":"好 那這條教育部要提供我們更多意見我認為還是先保留好不好我們擇期在哪就保留先保留 謝謝來接下來我們來16條16頭也是我們對不起喔等一下16頭目前為止有魯明哲委員提案馬文君委員提案還有好 那那我們還是有委員有一些的想法那培育委員"},{"start":6050.168,"end":6072.959,"text":"目前看到版本裡面說除了國英數這些之外希望依照學生實際學習需要開設相關課程之前我們也在跟教育部討論關於偏遠地區的孩子們的學習輔導不要只有從學科切入因為已經非常多科學研究方法告訴我們從其他的方法學切入其實更可以讓這些孩子回到所謂主流學術科目的學習例如說我們辦公室一直在推廣的閱讀這件事情"},{"start":6074.58,"end":6101.41,"text":"那唯有閱讀協助增加整個知識文化的背景作為它切入這些科目學習的重要依據所以我認為這個版本還是需要保留討論因為有更多的討論必須要被放進來 謝謝好 可以 來那這題其實我也是跟培語一樣的想法那我也是想說我們其實也可以增加遊戲因為之前一直不停地在跟教育部在做這部分的溝通啦所以這部分就是說我們可以再詳細的討論啦 謝謝"},{"start":6110.007,"end":6127.202,"text":"這部分我簡短的表達一下我比較想知道說教育部針對這個提案你們有沒有去計算過這個評估大概要增列多少的預算因為我們預算其實很有限那你們也沒有辦法就每個面向都去增加預算來做因應那你們有沒有去評估過到底這個要增加多少 以上"},{"start":6128.222,"end":6143.028,"text":"我可以也簡短一下嗎就是說對不起對不起因為要開這麼多的不同的科目其實偏鄉的老師本來就已經不夠了那我在想說這個其實也會製造很多的負擔那這個部分其實還是可能還是要要師資的部分還是要再考慮進去"},{"start":6144.282,"end":6149.264,"text":"馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。」馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。」馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。」馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":6171.873,"end":6181.181,"text":"本來這些考慮大概我們都會在評估中所以剛剛委員有提到說是不是再更周延一點我們也請請召委這邊考慮可以給我們再周延一點保留一下 謝謝"},{"start":6187.185,"end":6210.275,"text":"那這個部分裡面我們顯然教育部很不夠周延所以需要再周延所以我們就先保留然後我們就擇期再來做討論好不好那接下來我們就是第19條目前位置有馬文君委員還有就是我們的范雲委員有提出修正動議好不好那也是那個"},{"start":6219.415,"end":6237.183,"text":"吳麗華委員第19條這個部分其實去做修訂是因為說考量在第三項的地方是考量到說上面我們有寫每三年要辦理全國偏遠地區的教育會議但是呢我們是希望看到已經經過"},{"start":6238.163,"end":6255.202,"text":"六年兩次我們是比較希望說更具體的希望將這些公開檢討的事項制定一個偏遠地區學校的發展計畫然後跨域來整合資源所以我希望這個部分可以更具體的把它寫出來做出來 謝謝好 好了 范議員委員"},{"start":6260.472,"end":6286.966,"text":"第十九條我也想問教育部的就是到底教育部那個每三年辦的那個會議情況怎麼樣那結果的報告還有這題主要就是用意良好就是說中央主管機關應編列預算辦理偏遠地區學校教育狀況調查研究那如果有的話那個資料是不是可以給我們就是說每一個委員的辦公室作為檢討之用然後那你們的那些調查狀況主要是調查什麼是不是也可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":6289.475,"end":6290.301,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6294.51,"end":6320.458,"text":"當委員所提到的是我們現行整理這件意見的機制呢是用年度內多次的方式還是年度內一次的方式那第二點我們要考慮的是我們是讓很多人參與甚至所有人還是只是用委員會的參與我們要考慮的是收集意見的時間跟人以上我們不太想說用"},{"start":6321.938,"end":6336.91,"text":"一種很大型的只是一次性很久的會議來蒐整這個意見所以我們現行在年年在處理的然後讓所有學校分區都能參與的方式會不會比較能夠因應台灣多元的情形比如離島比如"},{"start":6338.971,"end":6362.043,"text":"花東、屏東的南部跟可能其他像海邊的情況會有一點不一樣以上台灣的多元的偏鄉情形是不是我們用比較多次性的方式分區的方式直接讓很多人很多學校參與的方式會比一次性然後只是代表制的方式再來的有利於各地的理解跟協助以上"},{"start":6363.476,"end":6365.077,"text":"條例同樣需要更多資料補充,保留則其在意。接下來處理第21條,由盧憲一委員提案。還有范雲委員的修正動議。"},{"start":6388.823,"end":6407.59,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 針對偏遠地區九任獎金的部分,之前提的是護理師跟護士,本席又在修改說有一些代理教師、專業輔導人員、社工師這類,或者是行政院比如幹事這樣的一個九任獎金,請教育部在座回應,謝謝。"},{"start":6412.428,"end":6428.439,"text":"關於第21條9任獎金的部分其實非常的重要因為整個偏鄉條例就是希望解決偏鄉大逃亡留不住人的問題所以這個它的一個適用範圍因為我們常常講"},{"start":6429.62,"end":6454.171,"text":"其實學校所有的人員都叫做學校教育人員所以當我們討論這個9任獎金的時候不能夠單單的只針對一些特定的對象那就好比我們在立法院雖然立法委員是公保助理們是勞保但是我們在做調薪的時候並不會去做這樣的一個區分"},{"start":6454.891,"end":6458.095,"text":"學校行政人員也不應該做這樣的區分,包括學校教練、護理師、幹事、工友、社監、營養師等,都有鼓勵久任的必要,希望做這樣的修正。"},{"start":6479.506,"end":6495.152,"text":"其實我們兩位來自原民的這些委員他們就是想為他們的族人他們的工作權益各方面能夠做好更永續的這樣子的一個處理那我覺得教育部應該對於他們的說法應該有個更積極的回應現在是次長還是署長我想這一題我們是樂見"},{"start":6501.533,"end":6520.604,"text":"只要在偏遠地區不容易流採的那個部分我們都希望能夠有機會讓他們留在這個園鄉或者是偏遠的學校來服務不過是真的知識體大譬如說護理師護理師可能有一些他就必須要跟這個主管機關去去衛護部"},{"start":6521.224,"end":6539.651,"text":"那還有就是說學校一般護理師的開缺他是不是有這個流動力那麼高或者說不容易召集到我想這個都需要一些數據來支持之後再來討論是不是來把這個納入那之前的原條文會針對社工或者是專業輔導人員或者是我們講的代理老師的問題就是因為這三項是比較容易產生問題的"},{"start":6548.675,"end":6550.703,"text":"那 細節的部分我們是不是再請署長來補充 謝謝"},{"start":6554.042,"end":6580.359,"text":"謝謝昭輝次長剛剛兩位委員所提我們完全能夠感受到全台灣的原民學校大概有410所左右那麼這一直我們都列管著也希望能夠有更多的協助那剛才所提的九任這一個連同偏鄉這樣加起來偏鄉地區加起來將近有1180所其中有很多原民的"},{"start":6580.919,"end":6598.715,"text":"所以今天兩位委員特別關心原民以及整體偏鄉的都是要我們照顧從剛才我一開始發言我是怎麼或是教育部怎麼看待偏鄉的師資我們是希望他最好能夠比較能夠減少流動率是用放正式因此有關監督考核"},{"start":6599.255,"end":6619.133,"text":"我們是這樣子在跟地方政府處理所以我們把它當作一等一重要的事情既放考核也投入資源也跟偏鄉一起努力所以剛才所提如何讓他9任從老師開始到各類人員讓一個學校的穩定需要靠各種人老師也是 裡面有行政人員還有護理師等等夥伴如何讓他結合各有關單位像園民會"},{"start":6620.714,"end":6622.635,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6652.911,"end":6677.888,"text":"我今天要問一下次長這個有關我們偏鄉條例每個委員都這麼樣的在乎有沒有可能願版什麼時候會提出來如果有願版的話我們會努力來提因為現在第三期的那個計畫8月就開始了那我們盡量在半年內好不好半年內把這版本"},{"start":6681.81,"end":6699.796,"text":"現在我們對地方這樣一起努力幫偏鄉大概凝聚了失資設備經費行政減量跟能不能夠比較是社區一起跟韓同家庭來處理這一些因為一直有在探討開了15場會議我們也凝聚了能改的先改像行政減量經費彈性但是失資跟社區這件事情"},{"start":6704.838,"end":6706.52,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":6729.25,"end":6729.37,"text":"沛穎委員"},{"start":6758.39,"end":6762.572,"text":"這個我要呼籲范雲委員但是我想我們剛剛的建議是這個整體的檢討報告不要是你們自己關起來寫剛剛當然教育部有說已經開過15個場次但是聽起來都是中小型的最中間你可以用滾動式的方式檢討但是我們希望是上路6年可不可以再做一個全國綜合性的這個盤點"},{"start":6781.22,"end":6783.822,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":6797.671,"end":6803.835,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人"},{"start":6825.289,"end":6826.889,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具"},{"start":6844.974,"end":6856.763,"text":"10分鐘好不好,然後我們就要接續起我們的國民體育法,謝謝,然後我們也請教育部持續跟我們這些偏鄉委員能夠做持續的溝通好嗎?好,謝謝。謝謝委員,謝謝蔡委員,謝謝趙委員,他也是聚焦大學的,把那個15次,謝謝,大學的把他聚焦,8月份看能不能開講,8月份,我留意。"},{"start":6870.313,"end":6874.937,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6892.273,"end":6897.877,"text":"立法院第十四條文修正草案案。 立法院第十四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6919.032,"end":6924.996,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案"},{"start":6939.104,"end":6944.01,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":6958.007,"end":6982.485,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校"},{"start":6987.329,"end":6987.73,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":7003.453,"end":7006.894,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":7027.842,"end":7047.041,"text":"我知道可是問一下你們現在教育部的版本目前為止還是差不多你知道嗎沒有啦像那個什麼族裔型什麼介入型那個OK啊那個沒有改123那個沒有問題大家這個東西都沒有什麼特別大的一個部分幹嘛有有有"},{"start":7048.843,"end":7068.633,"text":"現在就是你講的啦,就是事實實際沒有錯啦。對啦,事實,我知道會有一些的意見啦,那就還是把,我已經沒有辦法等你們,我們還是到我們部分去動。我知道,因為那邊有在看要多少錢多少錢,然後施支,施支那邊有講說我們一下子事實這麼多要提早到116年,有沒有辦法達到,其實都在討論。"},{"start":7070.194,"end":7073.377,"text":"立法院第十六條條文修正草案案。 立法院第十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":7098.997,"end":7119.193,"text":"那你說提前提到這個地方以前是一個林萬一中這個政委有意見現在已經沒有這個意見了問題是你們的條文還卡在那幾個都沒有前進永遠都不會前進啊 對不對警政院有意見新的不是啊 吳二齡剛上來那個向政府院長 他有意見啊"},{"start":7120.014,"end":7120.655,"text":"第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7136.972,"end":7162.353,"text":"還有就是我跟你講還有一個關鍵齁就是那個輔資中心到底是要用班級算放在學校比較好還是放在我懂 但是我只是說那個是去年就是這些問題啦阿你如果到現在為止還是這個問題的話不是你去年就是這些問題你到今年也都還是在這些問題好不好反正禮拜四是你們部長來的對不對部長好就是這樣子各位國體法齁大家齁國體法應該比較OK啦國體法那個署長說過"},{"start":7166.596,"end":7173.393,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7182.393,"end":7185.076,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具"},{"start":7202.449,"end":7223.406,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人�"},{"start":7225.788,"end":7245.885,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。"},{"start":7247.883,"end":7271.568,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等18人�"},{"start":7272.088,"end":7290.481,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人�"},{"start":7295.523,"end":7296.524,"text":"國家組先離開可以嗎?"},{"start":7318.242,"end":7321.445,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":7337.837,"end":7338.237,"text":"7月26日開幕"},{"start":7367.957,"end":7378.002,"text":"禮拜三部長來的機會比較大我們高中校長的營選我都沒辦法來禮拜二、三、四"},{"start":7388.769,"end":7403.759,"text":"部長他會來聽 因為是巡達嘛 我也建議他來聽一下雖然這版本還沒出來 主條我擔心禮拜四處理的時候 那個部長沒辦法來"},{"start":7406.771,"end":7421.384,"text":"那誰熟啊我那天學特斯是林次良林次良又說他要去高雄校長臨學沒辦法拿你們這樣的態度你們真的會完蛋我高中學校沒有這麼多人關心我是高中校長臨學高中校長臨學都是我主持的"},{"start":7422.705,"end":7437.849,"text":"二、三、四 我連續三天何新淳 要不要叫一下我有跟他講啦 我今天早上打電話跟那個學特事其實是臨時 臨時說不行啦那你跟那個誰講了嗎 新淳講了嗎"},{"start":7452.072,"end":7454.896,"text":"我跟他講說那兩個因為沒有商業保險如果用政策保險的話要怎麼評估訓練受傷這個很難定義有有有他說他會來看看"},{"start":7468.311,"end":7489.615,"text":"如果沒有的話就是用附帶決議啦我跟你講齁那個真的很賽會的比較好賽會保險都沒問題那種訓練那種很難定義而且學保已經有了他說學保不足還要再談那可不可以沒有商業公司要承受啊好謝謝喔我們繼續開會聲音有點問題我們繼續開會喔"},{"start":7495.669,"end":7499.011,"text":"馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":7512.892,"end":7532.374,"text":"我們就來續審有關於國民體育法第五條條文的修正草案目前為止是有四案條次我們看一下這個對照表好不好然後我們開始來做一個審查我們先審查柯志恩等17人提案的第五條"},{"start":7534.156,"end":7543.526,"text":"第五條其實我覺得相當的簡單我們就是要促進運動參與之性別平等然後就是很直接教育部的意見我們可以照委員的版本來通過真的真的我表達一下好不好"},{"start":7556.389,"end":7564.613,"text":"林一吉委員我非常肯定柯昭偉提出這條條文因為我們台灣現在女性參與的運動人口非常多而且優秀的運動員更多像戴姿盈、謝淑薇、鄭怡靜、陳思雨等等那麼優秀的女性運動員我們希望透過法規給她們更完整的運動環境"},{"start":7583.762,"end":7597.211,"text":"直接促進運動參與的性別平等來保障性別平權所以這個非常的OK讚張雅琳委員你們是怎麼樣何欣淳委員來了"},{"start":7599.412,"end":7606.496,"text":"委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。」委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。」委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。」"},{"start":7622.944,"end":7639.696,"text":"不管是女性的選手或是還是學生運動員的部分都要免於遭受性騷或性侵的這一些風險還有要落實這個不適任教練的退場機制這個一定要來強制的落實好謝謝謝謝然後我們接下來是吳佩儀委員"},{"start":7642.779,"end":7661.819,"text":"我也是支持柯志恩委員這一條的提案那第五條原先就是宣誓性條文但是我們認為運動性評絕對不能只是宣誓性所以還是希望體育署會後來提供因為你們現行就有女性參與運動白皮書嘛究竟目前這些指標達成率有多少會後把資料提供給各委員好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":7667.326,"end":7682.518,"text":"再次強調我們非常支持昭緯提的這個版本參與性平的平等可是我們要提醒體育署一件事情如同沛逸委員剛剛說的不能只有宣誓性質那我們辦公室在去年審預算的時候其實就有提醒體育署你們目前有一個所謂的運動推手獎"},{"start":7684.58,"end":7694.903,"text":"那運動推手獎裡面我們希望你們可以新設特別獎表揚性平推動有功人員可是目前體育署給我們的回應說關於所謂獨立獎項推動性平表揚會由性平專業人員審查等等規劃你們會說專案演繹可是我們很擔心專案演繹這件事情它就沒有往下再走了那我們覺得這個部分體育署要再加強所以不管是後續跟其他委員辦公室一併討論我們都希望體育署的相關配套措施"},{"start":7713.707,"end":7714.428,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7720.206,"end":7745.846,"text":"何欣淳委員不好意思先陳秀寶委員不好意思我簡短現在其實我是表示這個認同跟支持謝謝說柯志恩委員趙偉把這個進入條文裡面去確實的去落實它那因為剛剛雅玲有提到我要講的一點就是在廁所的使用上這個部分其實我們在相關的設施一直好像都沒有去考量到還是有考量到你們一直都沒有去做"},{"start":7746.486,"end":7755.682,"text":"所以這個部分既然我們要落實這個性別平等這個部分那我們相關的他們所的需求使用上就是廁所淋浴衝解這個都要這個希望你們可以納入這個評估謝謝"},{"start":7759.77,"end":7760.39,"text":"立法院第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7781.997,"end":7785.101,"text":"我延續剛剛幾位委員的發言那我的意見呢其實就是第一個我們這個有關這個廁所淋浴空間的一個比例問題還有它的隱私隱密有沒有受到確實的保護保障"},{"start":7799.618,"end":7804.601,"text":"這個我建議教育部國教署還有體育署是不是可以去盤點我們國內各級學校裡面有設置體育班或者是有相關的這個女性選手我們都應該要保護跟保障這個很重要要盤點那盤點我希望等一下回覆我們的時候可以給個時間點你多久之內要去盤點盤點之後又該怎麼按照"},{"start":7826.992,"end":7829.313,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。"},{"start":7846.821,"end":7849.322,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7871.927,"end":7873.529,"text":"這個算不算 那怎麼樣的去處理 這個部分是不是等一下請教育部可以回答我們 謝謝接下來還有哪一位 范雲委員"},{"start":7888.859,"end":7897.125,"text":"這一條的那個文字修正我當然百分之百贊成那但是就是說我比較擔心說它只是一個宣示性所以還是要表達一個遺憾就是我一讀通過的39條修正案有具體的做法這次沒有被排上就是我的修正案是希望說體育團體單項協會任意性別理事不得少於全體理事總額三分之一因為這樣子我們才能夠保障在協會的部分"},{"start":7915.98,"end":7938.095,"text":"決策機制有多元性別的觀點可是沒有被排入討論我要講一下這其實也違反了CEDAW的建議因為CEDAW的第16屆會議就說要求組織針對理事會代表要以規章體現性別平等的精神而且政府有義務採取立法或行政措施消除性別歧視我國2022年CEDAW的國家審查報告委員會也建議應該要具體落實"},{"start":7945.6,"end":7973.196,"text":"那這個部分那我要提一下就是說其實我之前質詢的時候都有問過那體育署給我的報告已經講到說那我們目前73個特定體育團體中只有8個女性式理事長只佔10.8%那也只有不到四分之一18個理事會有達成女性的禮監事比例達三分之一那有些協會其實自己想修法"},{"start":7973.856,"end":7996.916,"text":"可是卻遭到內部的阻撓所以我覺得這個部分很需要國家的協助那我要講一下其實我上次之前執行做講到上一屆奧運我們女性選手的得牌率是高於男性可是我們的奧會的性別比例落後國際用最新的資料國際奧會整體的女性代表已經超過四成了"},{"start":7997.176,"end":7997.897,"text":"充華奧會135委員女性組成不到三分之一只有31%女性體育選手得牌不是唯一標準"},{"start":8013.41,"end":8034.308,"text":"事實上是比男性的台灣選手好的可是我們相關的決策都沒有反應所以我蠻遺憾我的第39條修正草案那既有法制化的一個具體做法沒有排進去那這次如果來不及的話我希望我們下次能夠排那否則我們宣示性別平等可是沒有具體的做法那就是原地踏步好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":8037.284,"end":8043.208,"text":"反映委員你不遺憾太久因為國體法大家都非常的關切所以我們就先就我們已經在巡達過的這個四條條文當中我們就來做一個討論那的確這會是個比較宣示性那剛剛很多委員就是表達他們對於接續之後比較大的一個細節包括一些硬體的設施包括比例等等之類的我們還是期望教育部能夠在這個宣示性"},{"start":8064.662,"end":8070.985,"text":"條文通過後有更細部實行的細則等等之類。 是不是現在請體育署還是次長稍微做一個說明。好,稍微各位委員,針對以上的部分,體育署這邊做一個初步的說明。我想在體育署在最近,我們從去年有給一個各協會先一個"},{"start":8092.236,"end":8107.521,"text":"行為要求在下一屆選舉的時候各個委員會的代表必須要高於三分之一的單一性別至於理事的部分這部分我再努力看看我覺得也不是沒有機會我再努力看看看能不能在下一屆下一屆大概是兩年後會做選舉"},{"start":8109.822,"end":8135.538,"text":"我們看看這部分能不能處理我們在前瞻計畫過去四年已經花了四億多在運動場館的廁所的部分那領域這件事情坦白講我以前當總務長我很在乎不過這個在我們的文化似乎還我們文化 台灣文化運動員訓練完馬上洗澡這件事情似乎還沒有這麼的流行但是我這麼我也來努力那我今年在我不知道怎麼問"},{"start":8137.809,"end":8159.095,"text":"對我來講我是覺得很重要啦 對不起 那個公建計畫我們今年給台中的棒球場也給了五千萬喔 裡面最重要就是廁所這部分所以這部分我們也在進行當中啦 那中華奧會的部分我們在跟奧會這邊在積極的爭取還差一位 那至於我們的推手獎的部分目前我們特別獎裡面的確有性評這件事情 那性評這樣子的一個選項 所以如果有推薦我們這邊會納入去做審查"},{"start":8166.458,"end":8186.872,"text":"女性運動的白皮書這件事情我前一陣子已經指示我們立委黨委已經做了盤點也針對這幾年來的指標做了一個盤點那這部分我在順便報告提供給委員會那以上的部分大概是我這邊初步的回應好那我們是不是就做這個柯志恩委員的這個提案的版本"},{"start":8188.171,"end":8202.977,"text":"第五條通過 感謝 謝謝各位接下來我們就討論這個第21何新淳委員的提案好不好對是不是我先補充說明好不好主席可以啊好"},{"start":8203.677,"end":8207.822,"text":"其實我提了20條之一之二之三就如同我在提案說明所說到的我觀察到尤其是現況我們各級學校的學生選手我常常講學生選手如果沒有受到周全的保護保障"},{"start":8221.698,"end":8240.386,"text":"那他可能在某次的賽事可能有嚴重的運動傷害那就折損了他未來的這個運動員的生涯那所以沒有學生選手就不會有國手所以我一直倡議說教育部體育署應該就這個整套的一個運動選手從小到大的一個保險保護機制應該要做一個檢討"},{"start":8247.149,"end":8254.996,"text":"所以我第一個先把我們全國賽事跟各項學生聯賽的保險制度來入法尤其現在在你們教育部體育署的要點裡面雖然有但是要點裡面各項比賽的保險制度的要求不一"},{"start":8267.486,"end":8294.967,"text":"那僅止於樓地板的所謂的這個意外險那通常這樣子的一個團體意外險並沒有包含在賽事前的不管是交通暖身或者是比賽之後的其他的相關的狀況發生那這些都不理賠喔那我們在實際的這個第一線的學校產生了很大的問題是如果說在比賽賽事"},{"start":8296.408,"end":8298.711,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。"},{"start":8316.891,"end":8330.655,"text":"這應該是由政府來法制化來擔起保護選手的這個責任所以我提20之一跟之二之三那也謝謝很多委員都支持我這個提案謝謝我先就這樣子好謝謝然後01級委員接下來是陳培鈺委員"},{"start":8338.038,"end":8353.475,"text":"提出的新增的二十之一之二之三就是有關學生運動員代表學校參賽跟訓練的團體保險我覺得這個提案非常正面而很具體那我們學生因為是運動人口最普及的一個年齡層那學校也有很多的校隊那我想"},{"start":8354.717,"end":8368.553,"text":"我們幾乎有成年的運動選手就是從學生時候開始訓練所以我們覺得應該要完善保險來保障學生的權益現行只有公共意外責任險確實是有所不足所以團體的保險是好的"},{"start":8369.073,"end":8387.882,"text":"不過20之一條的生活補助金因為學生沒有收入所以沒有個基準那這個可能要更有詳細的這個評估看要怎麼樣的配套那20之二跟20之三的行政契約的保險形式如果用這種方式可能虧損會太龐大所以我覺得認為可能還要再更詳細的規劃大家討論看看 以上好 陳佩玉委員還有張雅琳委員"},{"start":8394.707,"end":8414.333,"text":"好 謝謝主席那因為之前何欣淳委員針對他的提案有開了記者會那我感謝何欣淳委員邀請那當時我們的主張就是其實我們在這個議題上我們也跟保險局討論過保險局的態度是認同的那當然相關的在美國其實有相關制度的設計那只是在台灣確實是相關的經費或是相關的政策相關的文化我們都認同還需要再研議"},{"start":8418.394,"end":8443.306,"text":"所以這邊是不是可以要求體育署在相關這個保險費用制度的設計上開相關的研究標案讓更多人參與討論而不是只有我們目前現在這個說法那另外關於剛剛那個署長提到關於那個淋浴文化的事情我要說是不是文化的問題是因為沒有這個設施所以才沒有這個文化我想我們現場所有人去過健身房都知道我們不會"},{"start":8444.673,"end":8465.853,"text":"我們不會只有男生女生決定要不要洗澡啦是設施不足導致於文化沒有建立所以拜託署長要積極的那包含我剛剛說的保險的部分可能過往我們在行政極端確實沒有這個考量但是我想要積極的要求是不是有相關的研究公開研究的標案可以建立相關的討論那以上 謝謝好 雅琳"},{"start":8471.212,"end":8491.472,"text":"我基本上是支持這個修法的草案但是我還是想要提醒就是說因為我們現在只有針對賽事演繹但是我們必須承認越高層級的訓練風險其實是越高的所以這部分的話是不是也可以來做一個演繹討論看怎麼樣把這個部分納入未來可不可以納入那再來就是說"},{"start":8492.693,"end":8517.781,"text":"我們其實針對訓練內容的優化也是非常重要的因為他現在可能只是賽事上面受傷可是他這個運動過程中的訓練是不是符合科學化的訓練是不是可以在訓練過程中他就不要受傷所以這個部分還是要持續的來針對這個科學運動科學的部分來讓他落實在基層來保障我們的學生運動員這個相關的計劃還是要持續的加速推進"},{"start":8520.6,"end":8537.496,"text":"那我想是不是請我們這一步針對二十之一之二之三我想我剛剛看到你們給我們的資料來說有不同的一個看法好不好我們是不是就直接針對二十之一的條文的修正來做一個說明好不好次長"},{"start":8538.237,"end":8553.928,"text":"首先很感謝提出這樣子的一個對選手的保障基本上我們的方向也是跟委員的建議是一致的但是就是在這個內容上面可能跟文字上我們做一些修正大家可以看題會版本"},{"start":8555.183,"end":8564.255,"text":"題位版本20條之一為維護代表學校參加學生綜合運動賽會及聯賽之學生與運動教練之安全及健康"},{"start":8574.747,"end":8597.934,"text":"鬥點並減輕家庭經濟負擔學校應令委學生及運動教練投保團體傷害保險然後加一個前項我們的那個題位版本裡面少了兩個字前項前項團體傷害保險幾乎以下都一樣就是說這個部分有做一些文字上的修正那內容是一樣的我們是不是請署長來做個補充"},{"start":8600.011,"end":8617.365,"text":"我這邊因為何委員一開始提的是整個集訓跟運動賽會跟聯賽那這部分因為我們也是覺得這個範圍太廣這樣運動訓練他目前的資格目前還需要一段時間來研議他的資格的限定所以我們把他限縮在綜合運動賽會跟聯賽這邊我們先進行那前委員這邊能夠支持"},{"start":8623.609,"end":8637.518,"text":"以這樣的文字那我所強調的就是學生在代表學校出賽之前或者是在所謂的比賽前的熱身這個所謂的訓練跟熱身有沒有在你們說的團體傷害保險裡面因為這個字很籠統那界定在比賽前呢就是賽事的"},{"start":8652.306,"end":8663.978,"text":"賽事舉辦的運動員要熱身嗎?對,一般來講我們是從前一天我們技術會議當天就是他開放熱身那一天開始就納進來是啊是啊,我是要確認喔"},{"start":8669.731,"end":8693.309,"text":"對因為我們賽會是指的是報到那報到開始其實就是賽會開始的前一天報到所以他報到應該算在賽會內了啦就是你們的操作型定義是很確定你們都是用這個方法來界定的是不是目前是這樣子目前為止大家的共識都是這樣子我們跟產業對商業保險是這樣情形的那如果確定的話那我的那個附帶決定你也看一下我覺得我的附帶決定會寫得更明確更精準"},{"start":8695.953,"end":8702.208,"text":"本來這個核心組委員還有其他委員都有提出附帶決議那個署長你要不要看一下第二案"},{"start":8708.85,"end":8724.04,"text":"我總共提第二案跟這一條有關是第二案剛剛議事人員把它順序排錯了我的意思是說相關的這個熱身、訓練、交通等過程有沒有在您剛剛講的這個文字團體傷害保險裡面"},{"start":8732.54,"end":8759.151,"text":"我已經在我的附帶決議二裡面是限縮在你講的全國性的賽事跟聯賽喔?報告委員喔,我想應該是我們有沒有改成相關熱身喔,改成試驗修正為相關修正為報到後熱身訓練等過程受到傷害是這樣?那交通的部分是不是可以先移除?對對對"},{"start":8762.233,"end":8766.914,"text":"交通還有另外的意外險跟運動傷害險是不一樣的事情那你幫忙修一下那個附帶決議你修一下文字再給我們所有委員好不好本席覺得雖然這也是環環相扣但是我們是不是先確定我們條文之後然後我們再來處理附帶決議我覺得這樣就比較可以好不好我們先根據核心組委員所提出的20條之一"},{"start":8792.182,"end":8792.522,"text":"第18條文修正草案案"},{"start":8807.609,"end":8816.26,"text":"為維持代表學校參加學生綜合運動賽會及聯下之學生與運動教練之安全及健康並減輕家庭積極負擔學校應另為學生及運動教練投保團體傷害保險"},{"start":8822.848,"end":8838.004,"text":"前項團體傷害保險幾副項目應包括身負保險金醫療保險金住院醫療保險金傷害門診保險金失能保險金生活補助保險金這樣可以嗎可以"},{"start":8840.942,"end":8859.999,"text":"現在是這樣就是說我提出說這個學生因為還是學生嘛他那個生活補助保險金可能會有一些問題啦所以我是建議這個部分可能刪掉生活補助保險金啊這不是應該都是保險裡面的一個用語嗎能不能請你那是一回事啊一般成人都有啦"},{"start":8861.189,"end":8862.33,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":8879.025,"end":8897.968,"text":"我知道啦大部分是因為現在少子化大家基本上是保護周全不太會有在工作的現象但是你不能說完全不可能啊我是建議還是因為那個下去的話會有很多誤解啦就是說好像可以領學生也可以領他的那個生活費啊什麼的這個會不會造成"},{"start":8898.688,"end":8915.324,"text":"這個可不可以請你們問一下那個保險局問一下來相關的定義是主席各位委員好那就是有關這個運動員的團體傷害保險的部分其實是沒有生活補助保險金這樣子的設計那我們可能也就需要就是保險公司在開發商品的時候他會需要相關的資訊去設計那所以當現在沒有這樣商品的狀況下可能很難在執行上會有一些困難"},{"start":8925.193,"end":8950.013,"text":"那我進一步幫新存委員問,如果這個團體傷害保險裡面一旦學生要用到比較高端的醫療,含不含在裡面?他還是會有一個限制,因為還是以他保的限制,就之前也跟那個培育委員報告過,就是他們目前現在只有一家保險公司。像是包押養啊,這些治療啊,就是比較,對嘛,裡面有難色,對不對?但是因為新存委員在談的就是,如果,而且運動選手們,"},{"start":8951.374,"end":8956.279,"text":"第18條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文修正草案：立法院第18條條文"},{"start":8972.073,"end":8974.154,"text":"第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例"},{"start":8995.269,"end":8999.713,"text":"謝謝保險局的說明我個人的立場當然是希望全包全套的啦但是以目前的狀況先求有再求好啦但是呢先求有在現在修法之後是不是請教育部提訴"},{"start":9011.084,"end":9014.989,"text":"在 可能我們可以再提一個附帶決議是不是在修法通過兩年後比如說我們執行的狀況如何那是不是有其他可以再更改進更好的再請你們做一個評估報告好不好"},{"start":9029.343,"end":9044.265,"text":"負貸局說目前為止在我們條文上面就是把生活補助保險金你是可以同意把它拿掉的好不好那我們就是把這個失能保險到失能保險為止這個標點符號注意一下"},{"start":9045.126,"end":9065.964,"text":"到事能保險為止然後提案委員的生活補助這個部分何新淳委員可以接受把它拿掉那我們是不是就照何新淳委員的這個版本提案然後我們做文字上面的修正然後把它通過好吧好謝謝然後有關於二十之二跟二十之三我們是不是一起來處理請這個我們是不是一起來處理我們請教育部"},{"start":9072.349,"end":9098.21,"text":"有關之二之三其實我們是建議說因為裡面有很多不確定的因素跟保障的內容而且也考慮到說現行的保險公司商業保險是不是有辦法納入其實我們本來很願意去研議站在體育署的立場可是在內部討論的時候我們法治處有一些意見"},{"start":9099.471,"end":9101.732,"text":"法治有什麼意見?一般來講保險就是一個風險的管理跟分攤一定要符合它的整個事務運作上包括未來可能還有再保險的問題國內在運動保險的這一塊發展確實是比較慢一點之前現在23條的第一項當時國手"},{"start":9125.805,"end":9134.448,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。"},{"start":9153.656,"end":9156.557,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第18條條文修正草案。"},{"start":9171.641,"end":9196.957,"text":"那如果他在開發商業保險的部分真的會有困難就表示這個商品的架構在跟國外在保險在連結上面基本上是會有點困難的就有點像我們現在國手一樣當他有困難的時候用保險的架構運作本身是本質上面會有落差所以我們用的是用什麼是用預算去補足他的差額的"},{"start":9198.078,"end":9198.538,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案"},{"start":9211.789,"end":9231.57,"text":"那個是帶病投保是不符合商業保險的那個架構的後來就是說那個是用弱勢助學的概念去處理的所以用政策去支援它所以我們講說一個商品要商業保險純商業保險還是政策保險的前提都還是能夠開發出那個商品來"},{"start":9234.076,"end":9249.933,"text":"只是它政策保險是要求強制納保或是最後風險由政府來承擔但那個商品還是得開發出來現在比較大的困難是這個商品的本身並不是那麼成熟所以並不是講說把它納入"},{"start":9250.674,"end":9256.596,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案：立法院第十六條條文修正草案：立法院第十六條條文修正草案：立法院第十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":9269.599,"end":9270.16,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9288.54,"end":9292.621,"text":"原則上我都可以理解法治的意見但是我還是希望我們這個方向跟政策應該要決定因為這是為了我們的學生選手所以我在我的附帶決議裡面也有寫到這一個希望一年內可以研議我還是再強調一次我還是希望"},{"start":9313.707,"end":9316.61,"text":"各級學校裡面的校隊這些學生選手他能夠受到一些這個保險的一個保障因為畢竟現實狀況上確實有很多都是家庭自行在負擔還有家長會"},{"start":9329.82,"end":9351.059,"text":"那我還是希望說雖然這個運動的商業保險還不成熟那也有可能像學生的團選一樣會有這樣子的一個政府的一個補助所以我也希望未來如果這個研議之後那政府的政策保險的制度如何設計第二個政府的政策的補助"},{"start":9352.181,"end":9355.525,"text":"立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9375.191,"end":9387.967,"text":"我們先處理我們的本文附帶決議我最後再來做一個處理可以嗎這樣會比較容易一點所以你們的意見意見就是之二之三建議暫時不予爭列那改以附帶決議方式辦"},{"start":9390.053,"end":9406.064,"text":"第二、第三,暫時不予增列。 最後一個條文討論完我們再來做處理。接下來我們討論莊瑞雄委員、蔡其桑委員、何新淳委員以及林一景委員的修正動議的第23條。來,誰有意見?"},{"start":9415.022,"end":9440.341,"text":"好 這個有關這個23條的修法喔那今天沒有納入本次會議審查所以我也有修正動議喔那我想我說明一下就是有關運動選手參加國家代表隊的保險的議題我跟蔡奇參委員一起開過公聽會也在質詢時提過好幾次感謝運輸有重視這個議題那在4月中的時候有提出說要"},{"start":9441.041,"end":9458.497,"text":"透過補助國家代表隊培訓或參賽短期失能保險給付與薪資差額要點來做處理本席是認為短期內用這個要點來解決這個問題很好可是若眼光放遠一點運動選手參加國家隊的保險光是使用這個要點的規範不夠"},{"start":9463.802,"end":9486.731,"text":"本席相信不只我在座很多委員都是運動迷我們都很希望說一個完善的運動環境才能有擴大運動的人口增強我們的國力所以我們立法者就是要做好最基本的保障來保護我們選手的保險權益那我想這一條就是說希望保險理賠的額度能夠跟選手的合約薪資相當"},{"start":9487.671,"end":9503.926,"text":"因為職業選手的風險相當高所以很多保險公司不願意承接那本席認為說我們可以參考學生保險條例就是用招標的方式來責定保險公司或者跟公營的保險公司來連結行政契約"},{"start":9504.867,"end":9506.028,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9526.42,"end":9533.577,"text":"是應該要提供因傷短期失能或身心障礙的選手後續的醫療照顧以及就業的輔導的服務以上 謝謝"},{"start":9537.423,"end":9548.545,"text":"接下來我們請吳佩儀委員然後再秀寶委員然後再范雲委員最後是何欣淳委員謝謝好這一條這個莊越雄委員蔡啟祥委員何欣淳委員都有提案我們非常的支持尤其是牽涉到國手的權益保障也想跟大家分享因為今年的奧運首次納入霹靂舞的項目那台灣的霹靂舞選手孫政就在昨天晚上在布達佩斯的資格賽我們已經確定拿下了奧運的門票所以非常非常好的成績跟成果"},{"start":9566.109,"end":9571.09,"text":"那霹靂舞早期的選手其實都是在街頭自我培訓看著這個網路錄影帶來學習但這幾年有進到國訓中心所以這個蘇總教練也特別講說那也感謝國訓中心特別是運科的照顧讓選手在這段訓練的期間可以得到很好的提升所以我想我們對國手的整體權益的提升是不能停止要不斷來增加那這一條呢最早的這一其實是來自於籃球"},{"start":9594.496,"end":9607.623,"text":"難求工會就指出說尤其是失能保險等等相關的為什麼棒球已經可以來提供但是籃球選手卻得不到所以我是支持要把它入法因為不只是這幾個節目各個單項的選手我們都應該提供他們相關的照顧謝謝陳秀寶委員"},{"start":9613.944,"end":9638.871,"text":"關於這一題在之前體育署的專報的時候我也諮詢過就是關於我們國家代表隊這些選手他們短期失能這個聖殿顯保障不足的問題那當然體育署這邊是回答說他們有編列預算為選手就是他們永久失能及暫時失能這個部分你們是有編列預算的那永久失能顯得目前投保的額度固定是300萬"},{"start":9640.111,"end":9660.816,"text":"在本席質詢的時候就有說其實永久生人險300萬這個額度對國手來講這個保障是遠遠不足那有時候也有建議說我們以資料來看就是說其實我們投保之後我們每一個運動選手都非常的珍惜自己這個運動的這個他們自己的身體他們去參賽的這個資格"},{"start":9661.576,"end":9687.646,"text":"所以其實他們不會去盡量去造成不會傷害自己的這種狀況所以我會希望說我們跟保險公司我們可以來談就是說其實這個出選率實際真的是不高但是我們是不是用這個增加保費或者說提高額度這樣的方式來跟保險公司協議可以增加我們這個永久失能險的這個保險額度讓選手能夠多一點的保障"},{"start":9688.166,"end":9701.052,"text":"那在短期失能險的部分呢其實體育署在這個書面報告有提到說有規劃了來訂定教育部體育署補助國家代表隊培訓或參賽短期失能的保險給付跟薪資差額這個要點但是全額補助短期失能險的這個理賠跟原來的合約薪資的差額補助期限只有兩年如果說他的這個失能是超過兩年的部分國手還是沒有得到比較完善的保障"},{"start":9714.238,"end":9739.272,"text":"所以希望說我們體育署這邊可以去了解說其實對一個選手對一個國手來講他們非常不希望得到這樣的補償但是如果萬一不幸遇到了我們還是要必須給他們一個足夠的安全感就是說我們這個國家我們體育署我們教育部其實對他們非常的重視也願意來照顧他們 以上好 謝謝接下來是范瑀委員"},{"start":9746.628,"end":9770.296,"text":"我想這題包含蔡義燦委員、莊瑞雄委員還有林益菁委員和新淳委員的版本精神我都非常支持甚至我其實覺得我們光是把就是他的合約薪資、理賠的金額相當的話很多時候都還不夠因為他的如果只是短期失能的話其實只有幾個月我想要以我自己在大學的時候是田徑校隊"},{"start":9771.576,"end":9772.397,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案"},{"start":9801.636,"end":9804.719,"text":"何欣淑委員陳培鈺委員在我的版本裏面事實上就是自從這個經典賽棒球發生這樣的事情以至於我們國家代表隊組不成或者是很困難花了好久的時間才勉強組成當然剛剛其他委員說在籃球也有這樣的事件情況"},{"start":9827.196,"end":9832.138,"text":"事實上我覺得應該是各單項都應該要好好的保護我們的國手讓各單項的國手都能夠充分地感受到政府是支持我們單項運動的發展跟這些國手為國爭光就如同秀寶委員講的國手其實他們都不願意發生事情但是萬一發生希望政府能夠提供的或是保險能夠提供的能夠讓他們未來的生活"},{"start":9857.048,"end":9878.08,"text":"沒有其他的顧慮或者是憂慮。這個部分我還是想請教教育部如果按照我們的條文我們保險制度能補的還是部分我們其他政府如果在國手發生事情之後政府能做的還有哪些包括我在我的提案裡面有關這個就業輔導的服務的這樣子一個轉弦的問題"},{"start":9882.743,"end":9883.603,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9908.75,"end":9909.831,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9927.349,"end":9948.587,"text":"陳佩玉委員 先感謝體育署在這件事情上已經先有基本的態度了可是因為在現在的版本裡面你們說相關保險的內容是被查那到底各個協會各個單項協會他們的立場或是他們如何看待這件事情如果他們的討論都還是跟我們今天討論有很大的出入我覺得後續還是會出現很多爭議"},{"start":9950.248,"end":9969.234,"text":"所以拜託體育署在這件事情上針對各個協會做保險的內容的確保不要只有金額的部分因為每次出現爭議都是因為保險的內容不只是因為金額的問題那也綜合以上很多委員的提醒拜託體育署跟教育部今天在這個議題上有一些回應 謝謝教育部的意見"},{"start":9976.752,"end":10005.501,"text":"我想這一條基本上的方向我們都能夠接受但是呢這個在文字的內容上因為考慮到商業保險的保障可能不足他有一些考慮的條件所以我們可能會在政策上用我們的要點跟辦法來做一些補助我們可以看一下我們的那個教育部的說明裡面就是本來國體法的23條之一本來就有授權規定定定相關的辦法"},{"start":10006.261,"end":10022.938,"text":"那之二23條的第二項也是針對慰問金也有那對於那個蔡理商委員還有這個剛才林益謹委員提到的就是說我們在23條的第一項裡面就提到說其保險之理賠給付額度因應該選手之合約薪資相當這是很進步的講法"},{"start":10027.402,"end":10028.823,"text":"立法院教育及文化委員會的臨時提案"},{"start":10052.628,"end":10074.607,"text":"我們以行政規則補助現行商業保險就體育運動遠南與城堡部分然後我們在4月23號也訂定了教育部體育署補助國家代表隊培訓或參賽短期私能保險給付與薪資差額要點我們在這部分對不起這個好像是我們內參這個給予選手保障"},{"start":10080.802,"end":10082.264,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案"},{"start":10099.928,"end":10115.022,"text":"教育部的意見我們是不是比較節省時間嘛我們就是根據我們螢幕上所顯示出來的這個部分教育部就你是採納這三位委員的意見然後我們來看一下特別請何欣淳委員看一下這些文字的修訂有沒有辦法符合你當初要提的要旨張偉不好意思"},{"start":10120.643,"end":10140.12,"text":"因為你最後一項有寫說第一項保險的短期失能這是合約薪資的差額中央機關要補助所以你前面是不是還是要納進說其實保險的理賠給付額度應依該選手的合約薪資相當你才有後面那個差額你要補助啊"},{"start":10142.029,"end":10156.893,"text":"因為那個前面是保單是商業保險你如果把它納進去商業保險就必須設計可是他沒有辦法去做這種保單所以我們才會講說那個保險不足的部分才會用第一項第一項我們用相關的要點來處理我們請那個署長再來說明來"},{"start":10167.199,"end":10179.832,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 保險局的專門委員王綺華、王娟瑋主席各位,如果是短期失能保障的話,商業保險能提供的額度非常有限。"},{"start":10180.433,"end":10195.547,"text":"那其實之前也跟很多委員有報告過就是說就是希望可以提升這個額度可是因為保險公司也因為我們現在只有一家公司如果我們就是逼迫太緊的話可能後續承作意願會非常的低那我們希望可以兼顧到這個運動員的需求然後能夠鼓勵保險公司可以去積極的開發這樣子的因為它畢竟是個小眾的市場它比較難符合保險的大數法則"},{"start":10205.737,"end":10211.266,"text":"對 那所以他們在乘坐上會有很大的困難那個額度沒有辦法提升得很高那所以會建議說這個相關保險的範圍比較不適合把它納在這個第一項的內容去做一個處理 是"},{"start":10221.342,"end":10243.094,"text":"我再說明一下我理解了因為你如果前面有寫說要訂因選手的合約薪資相當如果把它入法的話那後面就沒有補差的問題所以變成是你保險要必要保險可是保險沒夠的要用中央主管機關來報我們請署長再說明我理解了"},{"start":10248.747,"end":10253.33,"text":"基本上就是剛剛委員馬已經講過了,對。好,我已經理解了,我接受。何欣淑委員。所以我們第23條就根據,我們第23條我們把它唸一次好了。從組國家代表隊之特定體育團體因於培訓及參賽期間為其報經中央主管機關被查之選手及對職員辦理必要之保險,"},{"start":10272.944,"end":10280.349,"text":"其保險範圍、項目、內容與經費補助及相關事項由中央主管機關定之。國家代表隊培訓選手及隊職員應培訓或參賽至短期失能、身心障礙或死亡者。中央主管機關應發給慰問金並提供短期失能、身心障礙選手後續醫療照顧及相關就業輔導服務。"},{"start":10302.844,"end":10319.55,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人�"},{"start":10326.313,"end":10337.827,"text":"整個條文文字好那我們第23條就是根據以上三位委員的意見做文字上面的修正通過好不好謝謝那接下來我們來處理附帶決議那附帶決議我們是不是請我們教育部來做一個說明"},{"start":10347.311,"end":10374.409,"text":"有關附帶決議第一個為保障學生參加體育賽會之健康安全協助學生選手及運動教練專注訓練及參賽並健全各單項選手及國手培育環境政府應立即啟動政策保險有關保障各級學校之運動選手保險採購程序保險費率精算補助金額及實施方式之研議並一年內完成"},{"start":10377.21,"end":10401.567,"text":"配合辦理我們第二項的附帶決議第二項我想我就不再重複剛才大家都有提了就是最後第二就是相關熱身訓練交通等過程受到傷害的那個相關改成報到後熱身訓練交通有一個交通刪掉交通另外意外保險"},{"start":10403.735,"end":10415.394,"text":"那文字修正後就比照辦理這個沒有意見可是我想要多提一個附帶決議就是我剛剛說的那我是不是待會可以先念給次長這邊聽一下"},{"start":10418.968,"end":10431.612,"text":"我想提一個附帶決議,就是體育署應建立國家代表隊投保支保單及理賠的查查機制,避免有僅僅符合投保金額的要求,可是卻無法提供選手理賠,或是選手受傷後遭協會放生不當對待,以至於無人協助。"},{"start":10438.335,"end":10442.923,"text":"以至於無人協助的理賠狀況另外相關會議的政策制定會議應該邀請體育保險專家以及運動員權益專家與會"},{"start":10469.514,"end":10472.616,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10510.339,"end":10511.18,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10537.008,"end":10566.348,"text":"零食提案其他部分請體育署好不好在旁邊先做一個處理我們等一下回頭過來處理那零食提案我們是有關偏遠地區教育發展條例提案人士所有的委員都有簽字教育部要不要提出你們的看法有關偏鄉教育條例的部分每個委員手上都有一個偏鄉教育條例的零食提案好不好教育部你們的意見遵照辦理好那我們就零食提案一我們就遵照辦理有關零食提案二"},{"start":10569.973,"end":10570.675,"text":"第18條文修正草案案"},{"start":10576.633,"end":10594.182,"text":"沒有 我們先臨時提案二我們先讓吳委員先說一下好了好不好那個臨時提案二其實剛才也有討論到啦就是希望說我們現在這些很想要了解的問題其實還沒有看到確實的數據舉個例子來說偏鄉護理師、工友、幹事到底他會不會像老師一樣流動率高我覺得還是要辦理一個公聽會然後全面來檢視法規"},{"start":10606.488,"end":10627.1,"text":"好 最後一步我們在今年八月就會有八場巡迴的就是那個座談然後我們因為根據大院各位委員的意見我們要求國教署再辦一個比較聚焦的一個整合性的一個大型的會議來做偏鄉教育的實施後的一些問題這個我們就遵照八場"},{"start":10633.103,"end":10635.684,"text":"全面性檢視現行法規修正方向並提出報告"},{"start":10660.623,"end":10661.063,"text":"第18條條文修正草案案"},{"start":10683.9,"end":10692.107,"text":"對各體驗如果有委員要來補簽那我們請議事人員詳細登載在我們議事錄當中好不好那有關於附帶決議剛剛那個部分還有一個嗎來我們先等他們一下好不好"},{"start":10700.043,"end":10726.228,"text":"第八條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬"},{"start":10737.831,"end":10752.274,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。 委員馬文君等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10754.991,"end":10779.71,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案：立法院第十七條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十八條文修正草案：立法院第十"},{"start":10784.915,"end":10789.637,"text":"先給陳培育委員提案,先看一下秀寶。看一下。我還需要再念一次嗎?"},{"start":10805.026,"end":10807.63,"text":"案。 沈培瑜、陳秀寶、郭育晴、吳佩儀、張雅麗、何新存委員提出附帶決議文字上的次長。"},{"start":10820.948,"end":10825.53,"text":"對於今天的審查結果我們免於重複的宣讀在不影響條文文藝前提之下文字條4及標點符號為統一體力授權議事人員來做修改列入記錄未予採納的條文授權議事人員確認"},{"start":10839.315,"end":10858.821,"text":"然後關於今天的會議我們做一下的一個決議對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分我們請相關單位繼續以書面來做答覆偏遠地區學校教育發展條例我們就另定期繼續審查國民體育法已全部審查完略不需交由黨團協商並按擬具審查報告提請院會討論院會討論時由柯昭及"},{"start":10865.623,"end":10871.559,"text":"委員之恩補充說明報告委員會今天議程處理完畢我們現在要休息謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"154163","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154163","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618c57e3a378315f39f6ce632df23284be63312b75372d5e4c01daf5635acbaa0e4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:14:01 - 11:34:01","影片長度":"00:20:00","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-24","start_time":"2024-06-24T11:14:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-24T11:34:01+08:00","duration":1200,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時14分）有請副秘書長跟部長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長、部長。"],["吳委員思瑤：我想先問一下，針對個案的審理，可以在立委的要求之下，請你們提出一個偵辦的報告給立法院嗎？適宜嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，司法行政基於尊重審判獨立，我們所謂的報告當然不可能涉及到那一部分。"],["吳委員思瑤：要堅守偵查不公開……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個部分的憲法誡命，我們絕對不會……"],["吳委員思瑤：立法委員再大，也不能把手伸到司法的獨立審判裡頭，所以任何要求、立委要求，如果是針對偵辦的內容提供資料、寫報告，萬萬不可，好嗎？我們要堅守基本上的司法獨立的分際。","那我要就教於副秘書長，剛剛賴清德總統發表了談話，基於權力分立的原則，也基於監督制衡，更要保障人權，所以針對國會擴權的法案，總統府也會聲請釋憲。但是這段時間滿遺憾地，我看到在野黨的委員們有很多詆毀大法官甚至是威脅大法官的說法，也有委員說這整部條文只有部分違憲。違憲就是違憲，沒有分小部分違憲跟大部分違憲！看看這些在野黨的委員，把大法官說成是看門狗，也侮辱了大法官，說是沒有民意基礎，挑戰了大法官的專業和權限。當然我們的召委是講得比較含蓄，籲請大法官要愛惜羽毛，但我認為這樣的發言也有待斟酌。更甚者有在野黨的黨鞭公然說，如果大法官做出了對於國會擴權法案的暫時處分的話，立法院國民黨團將針對司法院預算，以及未來即將要行使的大法官的人事同意權會做出因應，意思就是一種威嚇。","請問副秘書長，過去無數次的釋憲，多數都是針對法案內容的解釋，不是嗎？過去到現在有多少是因為……就針對大法官重要的工作，憲法法庭就是針對法律的認定，要作出解釋；過去到現在，有誰對於大法官依職權、依憲法授權做出的法律解釋，然後就說要發動立法院來包圍大法官，或是大法官作出釋憲，然後大家去……利害相關人權益受損的聲請釋憲，就是包圍立法院，過去到現在有發生過這種事嗎？甚至公然地說要砍你們預算、要反制你們的人事同意權，過去到現在有發生過這樣的事情嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們當然是希望社會各界都能夠尊重大法官中立公正的行使職權，對民主法治而言這才是正道。以往應該也沒有說因為……不管釋憲結果，因為現在沒有人能夠預見結果是如何。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那麼去做任何並不很妥當的這些陳述的話，我們也會表示遺憾。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，表示遺憾。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：希望大家能夠為了法制的前途著想，尊重司法。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，釋憲就是法律、憲法所賦予的一個救濟手段，所以說為什麼提起釋憲就是包圍立法院、就是挑戰立法院的修法，這樣的說法完全狗屁不通。如同剛剛副秘書長說得好，我們要尊重大法官的權限，對於未來的釋憲結果我們不去介入，也不去預判，但是尊重大法官的職權，這是我們要有的基本法治觀念及正確態度。","那我要問問部長，中國在我們國會擴權法案的覆議案失利後3小時，同步地頒布了懲治台獨22條意見書，它是一個心理戰，也是一個法律戰。依中共頒布的這個懲治台獨意見書，沒有人是局外人，不管你是臺灣派、你是中華民國派、你是中華民國臺灣派，你都會中這一條。它的五個原則、五個認定的範圍包山包海，你只要發起「台獨」分裂組織、你只要通過修改任何相關的法令，甚至你在推動臺灣以主權國家的名義加入國際組織，那江啟臣副院長帶的那一團、去日內瓦申請臺灣要加入WHA，可能這些朝野立委馬上就中了這一條喔！當然第四項對於教育、文化的統戰，未來的課綱修訂恐怕就是中國鎖定的台獨的戰場。中國頒布這樣子不合理的、片面認定的意見書，它說你是台獨就是台獨，這樣子的作法是心理戰，更是法律戰，只要不支持統一就是台獨，這樣的話全臺灣只有統促黨這一個黨不會違反這個意見書。當中又很離譜的有一個缺席審判的制度，我去找了資料，香港同樣在2021年的2月，中國也用同樣的手段，把違反國安罪也用缺席審判立了專章，可以審判香港的人民。我要問一下部長，中國的司法管轄權有及於臺灣嗎？頒布這樣的台獨意見書，你要怎麼對國人來做說明？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，的確這個是國臺辦頒布的懲治台獨的條款，的確是法律戰，的確影響臺灣人民基本的自由權利，這個是非常不利兩岸和平的一個發展。剛才委員所提的就是管轄權，我想我們也都清楚中共從來沒有統治過……"],["吳委員思瑤：治權也不及於臺灣嘛！臺灣是一個獨立自主的國家，有我們的法律、有我們的人民、有我們的憲法、有我們的土地，所以人民不用害怕。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分大概是心理的威嚇比較大。"],["吳委員思瑤：下一頁，我先看下一頁，等下再回來。有國人也擔憂這個引渡條約，如果在海外的人士，會不會在海外就被中國抓人去查辦？中國現在大概跟60個國家都簽有引渡的條款，那國人就會擔心去了這些國家，會不會因為剛剛這麼包山包海的臺獨認定就被海外抓人？但是我在這裡要提出，我也去查了聯合國1990年第45屆大會116號決議所通過的引渡示範條約，主要的精神有三點，可引渡的犯罪是指根據締約的雙方法律均可處一年以上徒刑的犯罪。第二個，當被請求方認為引渡請求所針對的罪犯是政治犯罪，就不可引渡。第三個，當被請求方有充分的理由認為請求引渡的目的是基於被請求引渡人的種族、性別、宗教、國籍或政治見解等原因，不可引渡。我特別把聯合國45屆大會116號的決議文，針對引渡示範條約的三大精神，透過今天的機會來做陳述，我要告訴國人，基於這樣的聯合國引渡條約的認定，分裂國家罪也好，或是中國片面認定的煽動分裂國家罪也好，它徹首徹尾就是一個政治犯罪，所以其實民主的國家、西方先進的國家是不會輕易的配合中國協助引渡中國認為的臺獨罪犯，甚至在歐盟的發達國家，連中共要引渡經濟犯，通常都會被認為經濟犯跟政治迫害很難去界定，所以歐洲國家、先進國家，即使是經濟犯罪也不會輕易配合中國來引渡。我以這樣子的一個聯合國所頒布的引渡示範條約，我在這裡提出說明，臺獨罪是屬於政治犯罪，所以世界各國不會輕易的配合中國，這個有聯合國的一個規範在這裡，所以國人也不用擔憂，當然我們要萬事小心，所以部長，針對我對於引渡條約這樣的解釋，您認同嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是認同，尤其是到先進國家，我想應該沒有這樣的顧慮，比較有風險的就是跟中共有訂引渡條約的這些國家，我們如果要進入那些國家，真的是要認識到有這樣的風險。我想政治犯都是不會被引渡的，也有一個限制，那我想這部分我們也要提醒民眾，的確到國外旅遊的時候……"],["吳委員思瑤：國外旅遊還是要小心自身的安全。"],["鄭部長銘謙：還是要注意有……"],["吳委員思瑤：但是我們切莫進入中國的心理戰或是法律戰的威嚇。我再回到前一頁，最後我一點點時間，戰場就在立法院，其實這是中國很早就啟動的一個統戰的綱領、作戰的策略，這一切跟國會擴權法案修法的時間還有過程，它不是純屬巧合，是不折不扣的裡應外合，我要拿台獨22項的認定意見書跟國會擴權法案做四個比較，第一個，法律定義不明，在中國，他的臺獨定義是沒有上限的，中國說你台獨你就台獨，其實在臺灣通過的國會擴權法案，所謂的藐視國會罪或者是反質詢，同樣沒有清楚的定義，說你有罪，你就可能被入於罪。第二個，先射箭再畫靶，中共的台獨懲治意見書，可以缺席審判，人不在場可以定你罪，我們通過的藍白擴權的惡法，同樣不基於事實的認定，只要國會多數比人頭，可能就把你移送，作為整肅異己的工具。第三個，先調查、假調查，實際上是要顛覆臺灣，中國所頒布的懲獨意見書的範圍包山包海，我剛剛說了，不管是修法的，在國際倡議加入國際組織的或者是什麼什麼從文化面、歷史面、教育面去得罪中國，只要你不支持統一，隨時都被請去喝茶，都可能被查辦。其實，在臺灣的國會擴權法案也是包山包海，從政府機關、從部隊、從人民、從團體都一樣，可能被查水表，都能夠巧立名目。最後一項，少數才會被調查，中國國臺辦說只有少數分裂國家者，才會是被查辦對象。錯了！如果照中國頒布那樣子的範圍，臺灣只有統促黨的人不會被查辦，2,300萬人沒有人是outsider。同樣的，黃國昌說國會擴權法案通過大家不用擔心，99%的國人不會被查辦，只有1%才可能受到國會的調查。","我要用這四點方面來清楚的論述，不是純屬巧合，是裡應外合，我們希望戰場在國會，戰場也在臺灣的社會，在國會我們全力來抵禦所有顛覆臺灣的惡法，在社會面，我們籲請國人不用害怕，我們共同建立起強大的社會防禦的機制，面對中國無所不在的心理戰、法律戰，有備才能無患，危機就是轉機，謝謝部長今天的說明。因為時間到了沒有辦法論述，但是關於組織法的修法，我會在後續來表達我的意見，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：因為後面沒有人，還是吳委員你有需要再繼續，沒關係。"],["吳委員思瑤：我可以再講嗎？"],["主席：對，後面沒有人。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。那我進入下一頁，為檢察人員減壓，非常謝謝主席給我多的時間，我們今天來討論要不要法制化。高工時、壓力大，過勞血汗成為檢察人員的常態，當然要想方設法來為這些過勞的檢察官來減壓，我之前花了比較多的時間去整理司法人員的出走潮，這10年司法院各級法院人員的出走潮，辭職是達到575人。經過今天的機會，我去整理了法務部各級檢察機關人員，這10年的辭職統計也不遑多讓，高達431人，所以不管是司法院或法務部加總起來，我們的司法人員都是臺灣培育的專業者，他們近10年出走是1,006人，破千人，數字會說話。","這幾年新收案類確實暴增，5年成長了45.7%，112年度全國新收的各類案件數來到85萬5,610件，當中的電信詐欺案就有將近23萬件，電信詐欺案5年成長了660%，以至於現在我們檢察人員所偵辦的詐欺案件，占所有其他類別已經高達四分之一了，所以各類的偵訟跟新型的犯罪確實讓檢察官接案量暴增，我的數字應當都正確吧？部長，歡迎反質詢，可以糾正我。但是現在檢察官的員額即使行政院來協助增補人力，我們有個中長程的人力增補，分4年，111年到114年可以進用增補，這是法定增補，有600人左右，但是到目前為止，還是來不及啦！這五年來，平均一個檢察官負擔案量增加了62%，這我就不贅述了。所以除了增補人力部分我們稍後再討論外，其他的作為都應當一併思考。第一點，是不是能夠加強輕重案件的分流，用增設檢察官助理的方式來協助處理大量輕罪案件，以減少案件的積壓？第二點，能夠有效調節大量濫訴，協助對於大量提交的案件進行初步篩選跟評估，排除明顯無效之訴訟。第三，提升精緻化偵查，有足夠的人力協助，才能夠有高品質的司法品質，所以分擔檢察官處理行政業務的時間，使檢察官能夠集中精力來處理重大跟緊急的案件。上述這些作法，部長有什麼comment？你們有努力在多軌精進嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，事實上，我們有一個檢察官工作推動小組，我想委員提的這些，的確也是一個非常好的減輕案件負擔的方式，就以第一項加強輕重案件的分流來講，事實上我們現在就有這樣的處理……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，我知道，但是還不夠看到效果啦！繼續努力好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以北檢為例，事實上，我們立案審查的只有三位檢察官，但是就比較輕微的案件，我們……"],["吳委員思瑤：把它分流。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們把它分流，我們是到那邊就截掉了四分之一以上的案件……"],["吳委員思瑤：喔！如果到四分之一……"],["鄭部長銘謙：雖然這是比較簡單的案件，但他們也是做到無暝無日，所以我也送蛋糕給他們，鼓舞士氣，我想委員提到的這些我們再來努力……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，繼續努力。另外，其實要修法院組織法，總員額法的一併思考是沒有辦法切割的，但如果用進用制來提升機關用人的靈活性，就能夠避掉總員額規範的上限，這是不是現在我們比較能夠試圖下手的方式？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確是這樣，但如果檢察官助理能入法，這跟總員額法是不是完全扞格、完全沒辦法走出另外一條路？我覺得這個我們可以再來……"],["吳委員思瑤：再研究一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們也希望檢察官助理能夠真正成為法院組織法裡面規範的司法人員。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果這部分具有法定的地位，我想整個發揮的能量會更大，保障也會更強。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，但畢竟沒有辦法一步到位，如果不動總員額法，先修法院組織法用進用制，這也是一個方式，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為現在最主要是法官助理是用聘任的，而聘任的確如委員關心的，會影響到總員額上限的問題，會吃掉其他員額，但如果這部分能夠改成進用的，採用這種方式，在用人上會更有彈性，我想……"],["吳委員思瑤：更有彈性，也不會排擠到其他的原則。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，甚至用這樣……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我個人主張在討論條文的時候，也許進用制是一個可以思考的方式，但還是希望這部分可以從長計議。有關人員進用的部分，總員額法未來要不要修法，以及相關配套過程沒有辦法一步到位的同時，我剛剛提出的很多減量、減壓方式，我們都不要放棄努力，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：辛苦大家，也謝謝主席給我多的時間，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。部長，剛剛你們講的那個部分，我覺得你們好像有點畫錯重點，有關中國大陸那個，你應該思考的是長臂管轄概念，而不是什麼司法權及不及於臺灣的問題，你們剛剛講的那個，跟現在的問題點是不在同一條線上，因為現在就是類似美國的長臂管轄，這樣我國的國民到其他國家或是我國國民在這邊做了什麼事，他會不會在其他國家被抓走，這才是我們現在擔心的點，因為你們剛剛一直講說司法權及不及於臺灣，這個可能……這應該不是現在的問題吧！所以可能麻煩部長去參考一下有關長臂管轄，就是域外效力的部分，好不好？謝謝部長。","所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢的時候，要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員還有本會。","委員牛煦庭所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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。"},{"start":593.422,"end":596.263,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":620.61,"end":630.637,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案（事由（司法及法制委員會第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":645.127,"end":665.348,"text":"這一切跟國會擴權法案的立法修法對不起是修法的時間還有過程它不是全屬巧合是不折不扣的裡應外合我要拿台獨22項的認定的意見書跟國會擴權法案做四個比較第一個法律定義不明"},{"start":666.226,"end":683.44,"text":"在中國他的台獨定義是沒有上限的中國說你台獨你就台獨其實在台灣通過的國會擴權法案所謂的藐視國會罪或者是反質詢同樣沒有清楚的定義說你有罪你就可能被入於罪"},{"start":684.341,"end":694.385,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院"},{"start":710.512,"end":721.015,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":735.379,"end":756.286,"text":"其實在台灣的國會擴權法案也是包山包海從政府機關從部隊從人民從團體都一樣可能被查水表都能夠巧立明目最後一項少數才會被調查這是中國說的國台辦說只有少數分裂國家者才會是被查辦的對象錯了"},{"start":758.047,"end":762.909,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）委員劉建國等16人擬具"},{"start":781.414,"end":809.492,"text":"我要用這四點方面來清楚的論述不是純屬巧合是裡應外合我們希望戰場在國會戰場也在台灣的社會在國會我們全力來抵禦所有顛覆台灣的惡法在社會面我們欲請國人不用怕怕我們共同建立起強大的社會防禦的機制面對中國無所不在的心理戰"},{"start":810.433,"end":818.356,"text":"法律戰有備才能無患危機就是轉機謝謝部長今天的說明我後續的那個時間到沒有辦法論述但是在這個組織法的修法我會在後續來表達我的意見好謝謝主席謝謝部長因為後面沒有人還是委員你有需要再繼續沒關係後面沒有人好謝謝好那我進入下面"},{"start":834.722,"end":836.244,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":853.997,"end":882.131,"text":"我之前花了比較多的時間去整理司法人員的出走潮這十年司法院各級法院人員的出走潮辭職是達到575人那經過今天的機會我去整理了法務部各級檢查機關人員這十年的辭職統計也不遑多讓高達431人所以不管是司法院或法務部加總起來我們的司法人員都是台灣培育的專業者"},{"start":883.652,"end":906.549,"text":"他們近十年出走是一千零六破千人喔數字會說話下一頁那這幾年新增案類確實暴增五年成長了百分之四十五點七以一百一十二年度全國新收的各類的案件數來到八十五萬五千六百一十件"},{"start":907.65,"end":926.763,"text":"當中的電信詐欺案就有將近二十三萬件電信詐欺案成長五年成長了百分之六百六十以至於現在我們檢察人員所偵辦的詐欺案件占所有其他類別已經高達四分之一了"},{"start":927.643,"end":938.961,"text":"所以說各類的徵送跟新型的犯罪確實讓檢察官接案量來暴增我的數字應當都正確吧部長歡迎反質詢可以糾正我好下一頁"},{"start":940.421,"end":969.701,"text":"但是現在檢察官的緣額即使行政院來協助增補人力我們有個中長城的人力增補分四年111年到114年可以禁用增補這是法定增補600人左右但是到目前為止那是沒戶期了這五年檢察官平均負擔案量增加一個人是增加62%我就不贅述了下頁所以除了"},{"start":970.701,"end":977.047,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案案件的分流,用偵測檢察官助理的方式來協助處理大量輕罪的案件,減少案件的羈押。第二點,能夠有效來調節大量的濫訴。"},{"start":995.382,"end":1006.048,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院及法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":1025.395,"end":1046.953,"text":"三條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第15會期司法及法制委員會第16會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第17會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第18會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第19會期司法及法制委員會第20會期司法及法制委員會第21會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第22會期司法及法制委員會第23會期司法"},{"start":1053.798,"end":1056.7,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":1077.973,"end":1086.77,"text":"如果要修我們的法院組織法其實總原額法的一併思考這個沒有辦法來切割啦下一頁"},{"start":1087.754,"end":1116.483,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件事項,因此用禁用制來提升機關用人的靈活性,而且能夠避掉這個總原額規範的上限。是不是我們現在比較能夠來試圖下手的方式?的確是是這樣,但是因為我們,即使我們如果說檢察官助理入法,那跟我們總原額法是不是完全焊隔,完全是沒辦法走出另外一條的一個路嗎?我覺得我們可以再來研究一下。"},{"start":1116.823,"end":1126.088,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":1139.713,"end":1145.157,"text":"六十六條之五條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條"},{"start":1165.612,"end":1168.734,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具 «法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案》案。"},{"start":1188.203,"end":1198.015,"text":"六十六條附表修正草案案案件 案件的過程沒有辦法一步到位的同時我剛剛提出的很多減量減壓的方式我們都不要放棄努力好嗎辛苦大家謝謝主席給我多的時間謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154162","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154162","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618c2d32542b9d7054c2ce632df23284be63312b75372d5e4c01d690d3a913060f315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:02:50 - 11:13:57","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-24","start_time":"2024-06-24T11:02:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-24T11:13:57+08:00","duration":667,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時2分）有請部長，待會我可能也會再請教黃副秘書長，還有李釱任刑事廳廳長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、副秘書長、廳長。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長、副秘書長，您好。各位應該很瞭解，我其實一直很關心司法正義的問題，從本席擔任立委以來，一直對於人民要如何能夠相信司法、司法機關要如何能夠取信於民眾，都認為要建立制度或在制度內如何能夠提升人民的信賴感是非常重要的，那麼陳水扁的保外就醫案就是一個指標性的案件，這也是我上任之後一直很關心的問題。前幾天新聞已經公布了，陳水扁現在有一個洗錢買官案，因為追訴時效消滅，所以這個案子就免訴，現在大家其實更關心的是，陳水扁還有三個案子會不會也發生同樣的情況，因為陳水扁都是因病停審，就會有免訴，之後這三個案子同樣也都會是免訴。可不可以請部長談一下，針對第一個案子，從新聞上來看，好像臺北地檢署決定要上訴，請問已經提起上訴了嗎？追訴權時效到底有沒有算錯？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，的確臺北地檢署已經在6月21號提起上訴了，因為整個原審判決免訴的認定程序是有矛盾的，我們也認為他那個時效的進行算錯了，所以我們認為臺北地院的判決是有違背法令的、有瑕疵的，所以我們就提起上訴了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，在新聞稿裡面你們有公布你們計算的方式嗎？你們提起上訴其實相當程度……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我們就是有對外說明我們已經提起上訴，就跟我向委員報告的……"],["翁委員曉玲：是什麼地方有算錯呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個計算因為涉及刑法笫八十條跟第八十三條，還有新舊法的不同，因為這段時間有兩次追訴時效的修法，所以要調卷出來仔細去看，這部分的詳情，我就不是那麼樣的清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：說實在話，我覺得地檢署檢察官肯定也失職了，這麼重要的案子，怎麼會不知道要趕快重新啟動，進行追訴？同時從臺北地方法院宣判的日期，大家可以看一下，113年就是今年的5月20號，正好是賴清德總統上任的那一天，臺北地院宣判免訴，這樣一個時間點，其實很難讓人家不會認為是不是蔡英文跟賴清德政府機關算盡，基本上先放一個假消息，說要特赦陳水扁，結果最後還是免訴。針對這個問題，我想大家會很關心的除了我們剛剛講的後續這三個案子會不會同樣的以陳水扁因病停審為由，而拖過整個追訴時效，我想請法務部要特別注意到這個問題。","接下來我想要談一下，其實刑事訴訟法第二百九十四條裡面有談到在什麼樣的情況之下可以停止審判，被告因疾病不能到庭者，應於其能到庭以前停止審判，所以必須因病不能到庭才可以停止審判，但是陳水扁保外就醫的九年時間，我們之前就已經講過很多次了，他生龍活虎，參加各個不同的活動，甚至還幫他的女兒擔任訴訟代理人，請問這叫做因病不能到庭嗎？我想請副秘書長或是刑事廳廳長說明一下，你們法官通常在面對這樣的案件時，像陳水扁這樣的行為，會認為他是因病不能到庭嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為現在個案在繫屬中，今天我們司法院恐怕不太適合就這些個案去表示意見，因為基於審判……"],["翁委員曉玲：是這樣子，我是認為這是涉及到地方法院對於一個法官到底有沒有按照規定應該要重啟審判，以及他對於停止審判的審查要件，是不是符合一般的慣例及一般的作業標準，這部分我是認為院長難道沒有督導之責嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我跟委員報告，現在個案在進行中，個案在進行中的話，司法行政……"],["翁委員曉玲：個案進行中是什麼？他就一直停止審判哪！所以這個停止審判難道沒有問題嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：但是跟委員報告，比如說當事人認為對造當事人都應該已經可以進行，應該不是不能到庭審判，那麼包含檢察官什麼都可以聲請續行，那麼法官會做一個決定。"],["翁委員曉玲：那法官不用依職權去調查嗎？通常來講，法官對於類似這種因病停止審判的個案會發函進行相關的醫院要提出被告是否有到庭陳述能力的鑑定，他有沒有做這樣的鑑定？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為現在案件在繫屬中，如果現在司法行政就這個案件去做任何指示的話，恐怕……"],["翁委員曉玲：我沒有說要做這個指示，我是說院長本身對於你們自己內部法官的控管呢？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得你們不能夠這麼消極，都說案件在繫屬中，所以你們都不會去發表評論，不會去指揮，這個就是很明顯了嘛！對不對？我看全臺灣或全世界大概也沒有哪個受刑人會像陳水扁這樣，說是因病不能夠到庭，所以停止審判，但他看起來明明就已經就沒有疾病了，而且都還代替他的女兒擔任訴訟代理人，還有理由說是因病不能到庭嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我想這些個案的……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問過去法院有沒有曾經針對陳水扁的個案請醫院進行鑑定、審查到底陳水扁有沒有到庭陳述的能力，或者請就近的醫院看看、審查陳水扁有沒有可以進行刑事訴訟程序的就審能力，你們曾經做過嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：那個個案的承審……"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼叫做個案？這難道不是一個公開的訊息嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：就媒體上面所寫，以前曾經做過鑑定嘛！我們沒有看個案啦！但是……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問刑事廳廳長知道這件事情嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：據我們所瞭解，是有做相關鑑定或相關醫囑的查詢，至於我們事實上……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以曾經做過幾次？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分我們沒有去瞭解，因為那屬於個案……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我覺得這個是眾所矚目的案子，是不是請司法院可以提出你們過去承審法官或地方法院那個股，到底你們有沒有針對陳水扁的個案進行過相關醫療鑑定？這個才是建立制度，對不對？不要讓大家認為整個司法是遇到權貴就轉彎，更何況他接下來還有3個案子！我們是要就這樣子放任他，因病作為事由所以停止審判，最後拖過整個追訴時效嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：其他幾個案子好像偵結的時間還蠻久的。"],["翁委員曉玲：還蠻久？所以你們是認為……那你們預計什麼時候重新啟動？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個個案的進行，還是跟委員報告，真的不適合由司法行政在這邊去……"],["翁委員曉玲：過去的案子已經拖太久了，對不對？已經拖到有一個案子都免訴了。接下來我要請教，所謂免訴的意義是什麼？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：免訴就是國家的追訴權，因為拖過時效，不能再進行了。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們講得白話一點，代表他之前的犯罪行為是不是就一筆勾銷了？是這樣的意思嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：追訴權時效，免訴判決是一個非法案判決，我們沒有講案件的實體到底是有或沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：對老百姓而言，就是代表陳水扁的這個案子、他的犯罪行為就一筆勾銷了，他污的錢也不用再繳回、追回來了。這就是現在的司法為什麼沒有辦法讓人民信賴，有太多太多荒謬、行政程序有瑕疵，甚至你們自己法院內部控管都出了很大的問題。在你們的「各級法院辦案期限實施要點」裡面都有要求，法官的辦案要限期辦理，若有遲延，院長要負責督促他迅速辦理，法官每個月還要填遲延月報表。像這樣的一個情況，陳水扁的案子拖了9年，到底法院針對他因病不能到庭是有做了什麼事情，為什麼遲遲不能夠重新開啟審理？這存在太多太多的問題了。我希望，司法院是不是在一個月內把陳水扁相關的，就是法院這邊的作為，可以寫一個報告？就是你們到底做了什麼，以至於讓他的追訴時效過了，你們又不重新開啟審理。好不好？那就一個月之內請送交本席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，那就麻煩一個月內要送給翁曉玲委員。","接下來請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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免訴,之後呢同樣也會有這個三個案子都會是免訴那麼可以請部長您談一下針對第一個案子從新聞上面看有知道說好像這個台北地質署決定要上訴已經上提起上訴了嗎對於這個追訴權時效到底有沒有算錯"},{"start":134.895,"end":142.74,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二十六條附表修正草案．一．二十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":164.833,"end":166.515,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":181.684,"end":182.905,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":203.837,"end":219.462,"text":"第七十六條附表修正草案案 案件的主席劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件的主席劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件的主席劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件的主席劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件的主席劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件的主席劉建國等16人擬具:「法"},{"start":231.465,"end":233.266,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":245.103,"end":255.407,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草"},{"start":274.875,"end":286.801,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案（事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．事由．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":303.476,"end":313.107,"text":"我想請副秘書長或行事廳的廳長可以說明一下你們法官通常在面對這樣的案件會認為他是因病不能倒庭嗎像陳水扁這樣的行為"},{"start":314.54,"end":330.069,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法第五十三條附表修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法第五十三條附表修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法第五十三條附表修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法第五十三條附表修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法第五十三條附表修正草案案件,其中一人擬具:「法院組織法第五十三條附"},{"start":339.955,"end":343.137,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆"},{"start":356.344,"end":363.808,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議．立法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":382.758,"end":389.413,"text":"會發函進行相關的音樂要提出這個被告是否有道庭陳述能力的鑑定他有沒有做這樣的鑑定"},{"start":391.075,"end":402.665,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表�"},{"start":417.557,"end":420.319,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":446.369,"end":447.951,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":461.567,"end":463.808,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":492.398,"end":514.019,"text":"四﹑法院可以提出你們過去這個陳生法官或是地方法院那個股你們到底曾經有沒有針對陳水扁的個案有進行過相關的醫療鑑定對這個是這個才是建立制度嘛對不對不要讓大家會認為說整個司法就是遇到權貴就轉彎"},{"start":516.889,"end":521.093,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一）立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．一）立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":528.274,"end":548.681,"text":"其他幾個案子好像最目前實際上還蠻久的還蠻久所以你們是認為說是但你們是預計什麼時候重新啟動呢跟這個個案進行還是跟委員報告真的不適合有司法行政在這邊去過去的案子已經拖了太久了對不對然後已經拖到有個案子都免訴了還接下來我要請教一下所謂的免訴的意義是什麼"},{"start":550.674,"end":558.376,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":579.045,"end":580.866,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":592.605,"end":607.289,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法及第"},{"start":617.406,"end":622.69,"text":"九十三條附表修正草案．司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":648.57,"end":650.472,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"}]}},{"id":"154161","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154161","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618cfbf0ac3ae005bc5ece632df23284be63312b75372d5e4c013cfe12649b1131145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:48:55 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11:02:26","影片長度":"00:13:31","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-24","start_time":"2024-06-24T10:48:55+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-24T11:02:26+08:00","duration":811,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時49分）請人事總處處長以及法務部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：兩位早安。我先請教人事總處處長一件事情，就是有關總員額的部分，我想請教你，雖然有一直提到是不是要增加檢察官助理這個部分，我想請問一下，因為這個問題很重要，就是在員額天花板的情況下增加助理會不會影響到書記官或者是檢察官、檢察事務官的員額？"],["張處長翠娟：只要按照現在所看到的版本是聘用的話，這個部分在第四類檢察機關6,900的範圍之內，只要有運用檢察官、檢察事務官，跟所謂要進用聘用檢察官助理的話，這些都是要用到這6,900的額度之內。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以問題就變成即便給地檢署、高檢署增加了檢察官助理，但是它一樣會排擠到書記官或是檢察事務官的員額嘛！"],["張處長翠娟：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：那這不是等於沒有的意思嗎？"],["張處長翠娟：只要按照原來草案這個條文的話，但我想這個條文應該是認為檢察官需要有一些輔助人力。現在部裡面補助給地檢署檢察官助理的部分，他們是所謂的約用人員，約用人員的話是沒有占到人事費，這個部分就是人事費以外的進用。"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分也麻煩部長聽一下，部長先不要回答，我還在問人事總處，但是部長可能要注意一下，雖然我們很努力的幫忙檢察官們去增加檢察官助理，但是如果這個員額會去排擠掉檢察事務官或書記官的員額的話，那這個是不是有一點騙了檢察官們？這可能要注意一下。如果說今天這個員額是從我們原本的數字以外再增加，當然我們都舉雙手贊成，也替檢察官們高興，可是如果今天這個員額進來是要去排擠掉原本既定員額的話，那這個就怪怪的！好不好？這個再麻煩部長瞭解。所以我今天問人事總處的問題就在這裡，我要先釐清這個點。"],["張處長翠娟：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果這個點是照您剛剛所說的，那我跟各位報告一下，檢察事務官跟書記官絕對比檢察官助理好用非常多，因為檢察官助理到時候能夠處理的事情跟電腦使用的權限範圍一定是遠低於這些人，因為偵查不公開的關係，有一些資料可能不見得會讓他們都觸碰得到，這樣子的話，反而把原本能夠處理高權限事項的員額用到只能處理低權限事項的員額，這個是在騙檢察官耶！這不是在解決問題，這是製造更多的新問題。謝謝處長。","部長，你知道我剛剛問處長的意思嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我知道，我清楚召委的意思。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，那就麻煩一下部長，這個部分要釐清，而且你也要給檢察官知道，因為今天很多檢察官跟我講，他們很高興終於要這麼做了。那我心裡憂心的第一件事就是我剛剛請教處長的那件事，會不會好像給了很多人，結果其實是排擠掉自己其他原本的員額？","部長，我想請問一下，你就任到現在，對於合理化檢察官工作研議小組的一些作為以及成果，你有知悉嗎？處長請回。部長，你有知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有陸續在討論，最近也有開會，事實上，我們有幾個大方向，譬如該簡化的要簡化，像案件比較繁雜的，我們一定要交代的很詳細，但是有些比較簡單的案件，我們用簡化書類來處理，另外，我們也在研議管考更放鬆，因為我們現在案件的負擔量那麼大，我想這個管考要合理，而不是讓人感覺苛。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，瞭解。管考的部分，我大概也有聽很多以前的同事講，當然從檢察官的角度來說，這個管考放寬，而且比以前寬蠻多的，大家蠻開心的，但是回過頭來我們要去思考，民眾的案件進了地檢署之後，流程會不會變長？這是第一個。","第二個、可能也要注意一下，有一些檢察官會不會反而到最後未結案量暴增，因為管考時間變長的話，未結案量就會暴增，這個有一些實際例子，譬如有選舉的那一年，我們管考停止，部長應該很清楚，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這一次選舉有……"],["吳委員宗憲：有選舉的那一年，不管是對於逾期未結或者是對於逾3月未進行的案子，我們管考都會放寬，但是就會發生一個狀況，因為管考放寬，結果大家都把心力用到偵查或是其他公務上面，這一塊反而會沒有那麼用力，導致到最後未結案數都會增加很多，案件進行的速度也會慢很多，這個部分再麻煩部長稍微瞭解一下。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員的關心。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。剛剛部長也有跟其他委員討論過檢察官助理的一些工作內容，但是我在想，還是要麻煩部長，就這些檢察官助理的權責一定要明確化，因為它必須跟偵查不公開要有一個權衡，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，他也要有完整的教育訓練，而且這個教育訓練比較不宜丟給各地地檢署，因為像每年學習司法官的部分丟到各地的地檢署，我以前也帶學習司法官，我帶學習司法官的那段時間其實是蠻大的壓力，如果今天再把檢察官助理的訓練再丟回去給地檢署，也是增加他們的負擔，當然他最後還是一定要到地檢署去做實務上面的訓練，這個沒問題，但是在實務訓練以及課堂的配比上面也要麻煩部長能夠注意一下……"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣才能夠讓助理學得到東西，讓檢察官的工作量也不會增加那麼多，這個再麻煩部長一下。","還有我必須跟部長說，這段時間我們雖然對於員額的要求希望能夠增加，但是我們的主力還是在幫檢察官分攤工作，這時候可能我們是不是有一點忽略掉各地地檢署行政人員以及書記官工作量負荷的問題？譬如法警，他們的負荷就非常的重，再加上現在書記官的工作量也很重，非常多地檢署的書記官是考上了，分發到那裡，他寧願不報到，重考一次，你就知道其實有一些地檢署真的有一點是地獄地檢署了，書記官也不敢過去那邊，他們寧願重考，所以這個部分可能我們這次在思考人力問題的時候，也要麻煩部長能夠同時去思考，就是檢察官工作量合理化的這個小組在思考的時候，是不是我們也應該要同時思考到書記官，或者是也要去思考合理化書記官或是地檢署行政人員工作量的工作小組？","當然，因為工作量的關係，我覺得這幾年造成很多檢察官、檢事官或書記官的人力都一直在流失，我想部長很清楚這個點，所以創造一個比較合理化的工作環境，這個是重要的點，之前我在對蔡部長質詢的時候，我有跟蔡部長以及司法院秘書長提到，其實人力的補充真的不是核心啦！就像我們每一次哪裡出狀況、制度出狀況，政府最喜歡做的一件事就是補錢給你，給你補助，給你什麼、什麼，之前的農業部部長他最喜歡的就是去補助，但補助絕對不是改變制度的方法，補助只能暫時性的讓制度、讓這個環境、這個組織不要崩潰，所以我還是建議部長，其實現階段對於檢察體系有很多制度上面可以修改的地方，所以像我之前跟蔡部長就有提到一個點，我說，緩起訴處分為什麼要職權送再議？今天不起訴處分也要重罪才要職權送再議，原本緩起訴處分面對的就是輕微案件，結果輕微案件的緩起訴處分，檢察官處理了、主任看過了、襄閱看過了，竟然還要再職權送再議，這個是不是反而去增加了一審行政上面的負擔？譬如說，它的卷要送到高檢署，然後增加了二審檢察官的負擔，但是它的意義不大，因為我自己做那麼多年，他頂多是叫我補個東西而已，我從來沒有一件緩起訴處分到最後是丟回來，叫我重新另為其他的作為，我還沒有遇過這樣的情形。這樣子下來，是不是其實緩起訴處分有嚴重錯誤的比例是極低，我們有沒有必要為了這個極低的問題，還是要求要這麼做？當然，這樣刑事訴訟法要修法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：要修法。"],["吳委員宗憲：至少你們要跟司法院這邊爭取，我跟部長以及副秘書長報告，好的制度我們一定把它留下來，但是有一些浪費人力的制度，它又沒有效果，那是不是該修的把它修掉？我為什麼今天提這個？是因為我之前有跟蔡部長提出這個建議，但是因為蔡部長時間還不夠長，所以沒有辦法去修改這部分，是不是麻煩鄭部長，補人只能解燃眉之急，其實問題是出在制度，只有制度好了以後，離職率才不會那麼高。現在你看嘛，一堆戰力強的人都離開了，去當律師，結果一直補新人進來，新人要有當初這些人的戰力，需要一段時間磨練才能夠達到，這中間十年以上的空缺我們是補不上去的。再麻煩部長，至少我今天提了這個點。","其實最近這段時間我一直在思考，也有跟司法院的一些人在討論，譬如訴訟二審是不是要改為續審制，不要用覆審制？可以簡化很多內容，因為交互詰問在美國都被人家批評效率不好，結果交互詰問制度我們抄來臺灣之後，還跟它玩兩次，一審玩一次，二審玩一次，其實這在制度上是很奇怪的，因為連美國玩一次都被人家講效率不好，但我們玩兩次，是不是二審要改為續審制？或者對於上訴要加一些嚴格的限制？當然這是將來，這不是今天的議題，只是說我跟部長報告，我們也是很努力，希望去創造一個法官、檢察官或院檢行政人員比較合理化的工作環境，因為沒有合理化的工作環境就不可能有裁判品質，那司法改革永遠不會成功。我們以為的司法改革是我們加了一堆要求給院檢的同仁，但他們根本負荷不了、做不到，回過頭來說司法改革，現在證明完全失敗了，那我們應該回過頭去看，沒有合理的工作量哪來有意義的裁判品質，所以我才想說是不是我們應該回過頭去找出根本的問題，先把他們的工作量合理化之後，回過頭來才可以要求法官、檢察官的裁判品質、偵查品質在哪裡。好，這是我自己心中想的，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員。","下一位請翁曉玲委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 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案。"},{"start":241.983,"end":247.484,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":269.83,"end":286.039,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條"},{"start":299.787,"end":302.308,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":314.795,"end":319.357,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":344.068,"end":345.89,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 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案。"},{"start":680.939,"end":683.82,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二．二十七條附表修正草案．二．二十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":703.41,"end":707.194,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆"},{"start":721.101,"end":725.624,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員"},{"start":743.675,"end":755.882,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":766.167,"end":773.235,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":785.99,"end":789.032,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案件事務委員吳宗憲委員"}]}},{"id":"154160","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154160","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618c6123b2d911fdfc78ce632df23284be63d7cb5f521f67a89a1a911ee759332f825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:38:10 - 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案。"},{"start":215.663,"end":233.66,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":234.921,"end":238.345,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":258.024,"end":264.627,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具 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10:38:04","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-24","start_time":"2024-06-24T10:29:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-24T10:38:04+08:00","duration":520,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":534,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時29分）主席，有請法務部長以及人事行政總處。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：我想先請教我們的人事行政總處。"],["張處長翠娟：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：法院組織法在1999年修法就說要增設法官助理，以減輕法官負荷，那麼詐騙犯案猖獗，電信詐欺及被告人數已經攀升成各地檢署刑案第一位，而且持續增長，所以我今天要提出一個檢察官助理聘用法制化的提議，但是我看到人事行政總處的報告意見是，約用檢察官助理從去年10月開始陸續進用，那其效益有待觀察，建議約用檢察官助理實際運作一年後再進行評估是否法制化。"],["張處長翠娟：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是現在就在提議，那你們是主張一年後再評估，是覺得沒有這個急迫性，是不是？"],["張處長翠娟：剛剛也有提到，我們其實認為真正的偵查的主力應該是檢察官跟檢察事務官，所以我們認為檢察官助理目前是輔助性質的，是不是能夠實施一段時間，也配合整個院的約用人員進用及運用要點來做評估？"],["羅委員智強：是，好，我想請教部長，你怎麼回應人事行政總處呢？你覺得有這個急迫性嗎？還是說可以評估一年後再法制化？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們就是因為有急迫性，所以我們在去年11月17號就已經報行政院，因為法院組織法是司法院主管的法規，我們必須要會同司法院來做一個研商，所以我們對這個法案也表達我們的急迫性跟必要性。"],["羅委員智強：所以不認同人事行政總處這種想法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然這個是可以討論的，可以研商……"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個已經在行政院了，本部把我們的需求已經報院了，對這部分我們正在跟司法院協商中。"],["羅委員智強：好，我想請教一下，現在院版的這個修正草案在哪裡？進度如何？"],["張處長翠娟：其實法務部在去年11月份有送過來，在中間我們也有請他們補充一些資料，目前整個行政院其實已經先由政務委員召開了協調會議。因為現在檢察機關的員額六千九是放在總員額法，假如真的要進用、聘用的話，其實是會排擠了檢察官跟檢察事務官的員額，所以我們希望如果能夠法制化的話，是不是要等到這些約用人員進用1年之後再來評估？目前案子有送到院裡面去，正在簽呈當中。"],["羅委員智強：我要再問部長，剛剛就在講說今天就是沒有看到院版，對不對？因為還在簽呈、還在研議當中對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個是司法院的主管法規。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以兩院必須要協商。"],["羅委員智強：是。我想請教一下，法務部在這個事情當中，你們的積極性在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：人總的話我們有2次，一個是2月份……"],["羅委員智強：我要特別講一件事情，今天其實我們在這邊沒有看到院版這件事情，我就覺得心裡不是很踏實啦！理論上，這個事情照法務部講的這麼重要的話，為什麼行政院到現在為止，你們還在跨院的協調？還在跟人事總處協商當中？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想跟委員報告，假如這是屬於法務部的主管法規，我想這個速度會加快很多，但是因為這個是有跨院的協商，所以這部分的時程的確是會……"],["羅委員智強：我這樣跟部長說啦！今天立法院當然是非常贊成我們要充實打詐的人力，可是剛剛人事總處講的意見，也是你們現在癥結卡住的關鍵，可是立法院基本上在某些情況之下，尤其像這種所謂的打詐的法制化，我當然覺得行政院有明確的立場是比較好的一個作法，沒錯吧！對不對？你在立法的時候有行政院的院版，有一個立場在這邊讓我們做一個共同的評估、分析，這樣會比較周延吧！對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然是有院版……不過，這個法規的確不是行政院主管的法規，所以這個一定要……"],["羅委員智強：即便不是行政院主管的法規，剛剛人事總處是說，在院的部分已經有院版在研擬了嘛，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊！所以現在也是在推動中啊！"],["羅委員智強：在推動中，可是我就想今天我沒有看到這個積極性啦！院版沒有送到啊！沒有關係，這個是我要跟我們部長稍微講的一件事。","第二個，我要請教一下部長，我今天也看到賴總統決定要針對國會改革法案聲請釋憲，我們在行政院院長覆議說明跟備詢、詢答過程當中，很多意見都已經交流過了，但有一樣東西我到現在都不太能理解，想要就教於部長，總統有沒有憲法義務到立法院做國情報告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我想在覆議的這些詢答中，應該是……"],["羅委員智強：我要聽你的意見，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個到施政報告的義務……我想憲法增修條文以及憲法的確是希望得聽取總統……"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！憲法規定「得」嘛，對不對？「得」就是立法院發動，對不對？基本上沒有規定總統的可否……"],["鄭部長銘謙：法制用語「應」的話，「應」就是有義務……"],["羅委員智強：好，沒關係，我跟你講，「得」是選擇權在立法院，但不重要，我要問你的是，你自己認為總統有沒有到立法院做國情報告的義務、是憲法義務？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：既然是「得」的話就是沒有那個……"],["羅委員智強：沒有啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：法制用語「應」……"],["羅委員智強：你總知道為什麼我要問這句話吧！你們詢答已經答了很多遍了，這句話不是我講的，總統有義務到立法院做國情報告，並接受質詢，請問這句話誰講的？你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是我講的。"],["羅委員智強：當然不是你講的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我在那個覆議案，我也沒有對這個表示意見。"],["羅委員智強：那我告訴你是誰講的，其實你一定知道，你怎麼可能不知道，部長，你如果連這個都不知道，說真的，你這個部長當的我有點膽戰心驚啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是我們法務部……"],["羅委員智強：這是總統的金句吧！總統在總統大選辯論……賴清德總統在總統大選辯論時講的啊！總統有到立法院接受國情報告的憲法義務，而且要接受質詢，原句引用，絕對真實。那我要問一件事情，今天我們賴清德總統認為總統到立法院進行國情報告跟接受問答是違憲嘛，所以他今天也要進行釋憲，對不對？是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：今天新聞應該有吧！"],["羅委員智強：有嘛，是不是嘛，你總知道吧！你不會不知道吧，應該知道嘛，對不對？那我就想請教一下，林濁水說的一句話，我到現在都覺得是不是對民進黨太苛刻了，他說，奇怪了，那總有一個版本的民進黨是憲法白癡嘛！那我想請問主張總統依照憲法有義務來做國情報告並接受質詢的賴清德，他是憲法白癡，照林濁水的說法，還是說今天主張總統到立法院進行國情報告、接受問答違憲的賴清德是憲法白癡？部長，我不會為難你來回答，因為你真的也答不出來，就像剛剛我們前面問這個問題，你也要停很久的原因一樣，因為這兩個就是一個相互矛盾嘛！你支持以前的賴清德，必然反對今天的賴清德嘛，可是這就是為什麼我剛剛講到說，今天整個行政院覆議也好，總統覆議也好，我們最沒有辦法接受的是什麼？就是今天為什麼同一套話都是民進黨講的？作為法務部長，你很辛苦啦！因為你有政策辯護的一個所謂的可能你自己心中的假定，但是很抱歉，今天如果我是你，我都不知道怎麼辯護啊！我要嘛支持現在的賴清德，就是狠K過去的賴清德，要嘛我就支持過去的賴清德，我就要打臉現在的賴清德，我能怎麼辦？而且部長，你知道這兩個賴清德的時間差多久？你知道嗎？你知道嗎？半年而已，才半年欸！一個人半年可以變化這麼大，時空改變那麼那麼巨大嗎？所以從這邊我就要跟部長說，很抱歉，總統也好，行政院也好，那個覆議，我站在平常心看待的原因是，我看到兩個憲法白癡在打架，謝謝您！"],["主席：好，請回。下一位我們請林思銘委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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案件,而其效益有待觀察,建議約用檢察官助理實際運作一年後再進行評估是否法制化。可是現在就在提議,那你們是主張一年後再評估,絕對沒這個急迫性是不是?"},{"start":68.294,"end":69.396,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案案案案。"},{"start":84.637,"end":110.096,"text":"是好我想請教部長你怎麼回應人事人事總處呢你覺得有這個急迫性嗎還是說可以評估一年後在法制法所以我們就是因為有急迫性所以我們在去年11月17號9已經報行政院會同因為法院組織法是司法院主管的法規我們必須形容要會商會同來那個司法院來做一個研商所以我們也表達在這個法院我們表達我們急迫性所以不認同人事總處這種想法"},{"start":111.237,"end":112.878,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案 案"},{"start":131.312,"end":152.966,"text":"在部裡面其實去年11月份有送過來那其實中間我們有請他們也有補充一些資料那目前整個行政院其實已經先由政務委員召開了協調會議也是期待說是不是因為他們本身現在檢查機關的員額6900是放在總委員法假如說真的要所謂禁用聘用的話其實是會就排擠了檢察官跟檢察事務官的員額"},{"start":153.766,"end":170.982,"text":"所以我們大概希望是能夠法制化的話是不是要等到這些御用人員禁用一年之後再來評估目前的案子有送到院裡面去正在簽程當中我要再問部長齁剛剛就在講說今天就是沒有看到院版嘛對不對因為還在簽程還在研議當中嘛對不對"},{"start":171.854,"end":194.877,"text":"因為這個是法規的主管法規是司法院對司法院所以必須要兩院要必須要協商是那我看我想請教一下法務部在這個事情當中你們的積極性在哪裡這個能總的話有有我們有兩次應該二月份我要特別講一件事情今天其實我們在這邊沒有看到院版這件事情我就覺得心裡不是很踏實"},{"start":196.155,"end":210.538,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":223.2,"end":243.56,"text":"今天立法院我們當然是非常贊成今天要充實打詐的人力可是關於人事總署講的意見也是你們現在癥結卡住的關鍵可是立法院基本上某些情況之下尤其像這種所謂的打詐的法制的話我當然覺得行政院有明確的立場是比較好的一個做法沒錯吧"},{"start":245.336,"end":247.279,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案 。"},{"start":254.738,"end":255.879,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":283.7,"end":311.668,"text":"我今天也看到賴總統決定要針對國會改革法案釋憲當然我們在這個行政院長附議說明跟被詢答詢答過程當中很多的一些意見都已經交流過了但有一樣東西我到現在都不太能理解想要就教於部長這個總統有沒有憲法義務到立法院做國情報告這個我想在附議的這些詢答中應該是不要聽你的意見啦"},{"start":313.404,"end":314.016,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":317.694,"end":330.823,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．併案．司法及法制委員會及立法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．司法及法制委員會及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條文及立法院組織法條"},{"start":347.915,"end":348.735,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":372.824,"end":373.304,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案案。"},{"start":390.222,"end":406.433,"text":"原具引用,絕無真實。」那我需要問一件事情今天我們賴清晨總統認為總統到底法院接受國情這個進行國情報告跟接受問答他認為是違憲嘛所以提前提出所謂的要他也要進行釋憲嘛對不對是不是"},{"start":407.665,"end":409.626,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案 案。"},{"start":425.54,"end":436.732,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期"},{"start":447.54,"end":470.338,"text":"我知道部長我不會為難你回答因為你真的也答不出來就像剛才我們前面問的問題你也要停很久原因一樣因為這兩個就是一個相互矛盾嘛你支持以前賴清德必然反對今天的賴清德可是今天這就是為什麼我剛剛講到說今天整個行政院副議也好總統副議也好我們最沒有辦法接受的是什麼接受是今天為什麼同一套話都是民進黨講的啊"},{"start":471.741,"end":495.546,"text":"作為法務部長你很辛苦啦因為你有政策辯護的一個所謂的可能你自己心中的假定但是很抱歉啊今天我是你我都不知道怎麼辯護啊我要嘛支持現在賴清德就是很K過去的賴清德要嘛我就支持過去賴清德我就要打臉現在賴清德我能怎麼辦而且部長你知道這兩個賴清德時間差多久你知道嗎半年而已欸"},{"start":499.315,"end":500.957,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案案。"}]}},{"id":"154158","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154158","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618ceddc827086d60c36ce632df23284be63d7cb5f521f67a89a4f59cd66632241b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:15:57 - 10:29:16","影片長度":"00:13:19","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-24","start_time":"2024-06-24T10:15:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-24T10:29:16+08:00","duration":799,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":430,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時16分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請司法院黃副秘書長、法務部鄭部長，以及人事行政總處的張處長。"],["主席：黃副秘書長、鄭部長、張處長請上臺。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、副秘書長好，還有處長好。先請教副秘書長，請看照片，上週我們司法及法制委員會安排一個我覺得很有意義的考察，直接到臺北地院去看民事執行處的情況，你看堆滿了卷宗，而且這上面還寫著「拒絕過勞」、「合理分流」，副秘書長，你覺得我們第一線的司法人員這樣的表達，您心裡有什麼感受？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們看到我們同仁那麼辛苦，我們自己真的也很不忍，所以我們也是積極的，委員也瞭解，我們規劃了非常多的方向，包含今天也依照委員的建議，今天同時也在召開全國的民事執行處怎麼樣去檢討這個事情……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們也讓法務部部長瞭解，那一天我們到臺北地院是看了以壽險契約為金錢債權強制執行的情況，這個情況在臺北地院已經造成了一個很大的災難，但是同樣的，保險契約的要保人，如果他是我們行政執行上的債務人，我們行政執行上是不是也有同樣的情況？執行處、行政執行署會不會也要執行一些國家要追的稅、要追的規費，對於這個債務人，也就是國民，如果他有壽險契約的情況之下，為要保人的情況下，我們予以追討，有沒有？部長，你知道這個事吧？就是保單解約的問題啦，保單解約用強制執行，瞭解嘛？好，現在如果次長要幫助，請趕快過來，因為部長對於這個情況過去已經造成了，包括行政執行署，包括地方法院的民事執行處，已經造成很大的量。過去在查詢的時候，我們的系統要怎麼樣去做，未來的分流要怎麼樣去分流，副秘書長，是不是那天司法院也作了一個分流的決定，未來這些案源不會再集中在臺北地院了嘛，是不是這樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，依照我們的那個原則……"],["鍾委員佳濱：7月份開始的一個原則會這樣做嘛？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對，7月1號開始就會，今天我們已經跟全國各地的民事執行處……"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且保險局也馬上立即的反應，把8類的保單列為不得強制執行的一個標的，是不是？你們也配合的去做了嘛，未來這樣子的情況就會大量的減少，但是後續不管是我們的行政執行，還是我們的民事執行，在進行保險公會查詢的時候，該循什麼樣的管道，該支付什麼樣的費用，後續是不是請部長，部長，後續要請你指示另外一位黃次長，跟我們司法院共同來研究，如何在執行這樣強制執行的時候，我們對於民間壽險公會查詢的作業，那樣的流程跟付費是不是可以指示他一起共同來參與、協調？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，大法庭做了這個見解之後，事實上，我們行政執行署在今年的1月跟4月都已經做相關行政上的指導，指示各……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那跟壽險公會那邊呢？"],["黃次長謀信：各分署必須要謹慎的處理，後來銀行局提出修法的建議之後，我們也把這個相關的規定轉給行政執行署，執行署也轉知所有的分署，未來當然我們也會跟壽險公會做相關的協調，並且謹慎執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，因為我們後續還有一些協調，事涉到司法院跟法務部，是不是請你指示另外一位黃次長，來參與我們未來後續的協調當中。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","那我現在問今天的正題了，我們看一下。請問部長，您知道臺灣一年的土地登記總筆數有多少嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副秘書長，這個量，因為我過去在地方政府當過副縣長，我們的地政處還有地政事務所有這麼多，一年大概350萬件，就你知道的，登記錯誤造成人民的權益損害，可不可以要求賠償？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：土地法應該在第六十八條或第六十九條有這樣的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有這樣的規定嘛。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：無過失賠償責任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是要負過失賠償責任嘛？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：在比較法制上就有很大的討論空間啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，好，我們往下看。其實我要告訴部長、告訴副秘書長的是，土地登記錯誤可以要求國賠，包括面積少算，包括重複登錄買到幽靈土地，包括登記給同名同姓的人，這在地政機關經常、有時候會看到這樣的事情發生，要不要賠？副秘書長，要不要賠？依你的經驗所知道的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果造成的話要賠，我們的民事訴訟裡面確實有這一類的案件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，你也知道有要賠的。","好，我們再往下看，所以目前依土地法規的規定有一個提存儲金作為賠償的準備，土地法第六百八十一條和土地法第七十條，原則上，機關負責的是無過失賠償責任，但是例外的情況，執行人員故意或重大過失，就由行政費去提撥，您所知道的，有這樣的制度嗎？副秘書長。您知道有這個做法嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，因為我們現在土地登記，這個制度是世界共通的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：世界共通的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：土地登記的這種無過失責任，會有一個墊償基金，我們是參考其他國家的法制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，那我們往下看。在我們國內呢，包括醫師執行業務的責任保險，包括會計師的責任保險，包括刑事執行人員的責任保險，目前對於這些執行業務的人，他們有這樣的專業保險，這些職務是不是都現存有這樣的制度？你所知道的。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，關於這些，其他的醫生他們可能自己去保責任險，但是委員會執行人員的話，我們之前有想要努力，但是相關的法制上面，相關的政府機關，好像我們碰到一些困難，我們也是繼續在爭取中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我請教法務部部長，你所知道，目前我們刑事執行人員有沒有投保這個責任保險？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法院的確對民事執行處有這樣的責任保險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嗎？我不曉得，但是我是問你刑事執行人員有沒有這樣的責任險？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於這個部分，其實部分的檢察機關的執行科是有參與這個責任險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好。我們來往下看，所以目前司法人員包括檢察官在遭國賠求償的時候，雖然求償的金額只有一萬二，但是這個風險讓他的壓力很大。另外，司法事務官也認為他的案量那麼多，那麼你也知道，只要稍有疏失就會被求償。我們往下看，請問一下，目前強制執行人員有沒有這樣的責任險？司法院有一個法院辦理強制執行人員責任保險，是在2008年上路，請問副秘書長，據你所知，目前投保的情況是怎麼樣？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：因為有一些同仁會自己去辦理，對於詳細投保的人數，我們還沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有去瞭解？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問法務部，同樣的道理，你們的刑事強制執行人員有沒有這樣的需求？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有這個需求，他們會自行……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們是自行保險。好，我來提出訴求，我先講第一個部分，我請司法院跟法務部就如何精進司法人員責任保險的制度提出一個報告，瞭解一下這些第一線執行人員的需求，而不是跟他們說你們自己去買商業保險，你們要關心一下這些第一線的執行人員，讓他們不要在業務量那麼大的情況之下如果稍有閃失還要面對國賠的壓力，透過這樣的保險機制有效地減輕他們的壓力，請兩位部長跟副秘書長回去做研商，再提出一個報告給本席，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，可以。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我們繼續往下看，部長，從109年到113年我們所新收的偵查案件成長很快，對不對？從不到50萬件，到現在年平均已經70萬件了，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這是你們的需求，我們往下看，你們打詐的1.5版從112年開始新增檢察官助理，去年100個，今年增加到150個，你們目前招考這些檢察官助理的法律依據跟工作內容為何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在檢察官助理……"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢察官助理能做什麼事情？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他有六大工作……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。"],["鄭部長銘謙：在這裡面有寫，就是六大工作內容，這是法務部所頒的一個工作項目指引。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們看一下，剛剛有幾位委員都問到了，檢察官的職權是實施偵查、提起公訴、實行公訴，檢察事務官是受檢察官的指揮，包括實施搜索還有詢問告訴人、告發人，襄助檢察官執行業務，檢察官助理能做這些事情嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他不行嘛！這是剛剛的問題，來，我現在要問人事行政總處，你們對於我剛剛提出的這個意見，你們對於檢察官要增設助理的看法是什麼？"],["張處長翠娟：我們最主要知道檢察事務官的缺額率還蠻高的，我們認為這一塊人力補齊的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢察事務官的缺額蠻高的，檢察事務官可以協助檢察官做剛剛那個比較重要的核心事務，對不對？"],["張處長翠娟：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們希望怎麼樣？"],["張處長翠娟：當然是希望能夠儘快來補足……"],["鍾委員佳濱：補足檢察事務官？"],["張處長翠娟：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至於他們要求的檢察官助理呢？你覺得檢察官助理能做什麼事？"],["張處長翠娟：我們知道他們去年10月才用，剛剛其實也有提到可能在蒐集資料的部分是有一些助力，但是我們希望在實施1年之後，是不是等到今年年底相關的報告出來，我們再來看看這些要不要法制化？"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，目前根據這些約用人員的進用及運用要點，他是非依公務人員法規、以人事費以外之經費自行進用，他目前做的工作就是行政輔助，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們現在是希望從約用變成聘用，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是希望能夠進用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：用進用就可以了？那人總的看法呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為其實人總他們當然有擔心員額上限的問題，如果是進用的話，我們就可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那如果是用進用的話，是否這些確有必要的人員，就是會占用到我們的聘用條例裡面的聘用人員？是這樣嗎？"],["張處長翠娟：沒有，他們現在是用約用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是用約用？"],["張處長翠娟：對，用約用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是維持約用。好，那接下來我這個問題就可以不用問了，就是我們總員額法第三十一條，如果你用聘用，他就進入到員額的上限，如果你用約用，就不納入這個上限的計算。部長，所以你們瞭解了嗎？我們的想法向來就是希望你們的核心業務由具有考試資格的檢察事務官趕快地去訓練，趕快地去進用、去任用。"],["鄭部長銘謙：報告委員，這個已經有提那個考試了，就是206人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是實在是緩不濟急，因為在這段時間詐產的氣燄高張，讓我們案件量急速增加。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以目前用進用的方式讓你很彈性、迅速可以用到人，是不是這樣子？那如果未來業務量不同的時候，這些人要怎麼處置？你進來以後到想要離開的時候啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在是要入法化，在做一個有法定職掌的依據，那我想這樣整個辦案能量會更好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我的結論就是檢察機關需用人力要分臨時性跟經常性，要評估臨時性需求的人力及時間，經常性的就要補足，簡單講，上面的就是進用這些檢察官助理，下面的就是檢察事務官。所以我們要請法務部，在我們支持你們減輕基層人員業務負擔的同時，你們先要考慮到這些人請進來是做什麼事情，在將來沒有這個業務之後要怎麼安排，你們要趕快想清楚好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，我們就是這樣，希望今天我們在支持你們的同時，你們目前的要求是你們那個附表當中的編制數要跟法官助理一樣多嗎？次長還是部長要說明？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們提的那個版本是有提行政院的版本。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，人事行政總處，他們目前的附表裡面所要用的員額跟法官助理相比是比較多還是比較少？"],["張處長翠娟：他們是打算要一樣，就是跟檢察事務官的配比……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是跟檢察事務官一樣還是跟法官助理的編制一樣？"],["張處長翠娟：其實應該是檢察事務官。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那目前法官助理跟司法事務官是不是一樣多？"],["張處長翠娟：他們現在法官助理還有司法事務官是1比1.4。"],["鍾委員佳濱：司法事務官是1，法官助理是1.4？"],["張處長翠娟：應該是法官是1，然後司法事務官加上法官助理是1.4。"],["鍾委員佳濱：1.4？"],["張處長翠娟：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那未來檢察官、檢察事務官和檢察官助理是不是也是這樣的比例？次長，你比較辛苦，你趕快講。"],["黃次長謀信：我們在行政院協調的結果，未來我們希望檢察官助理跟檢察事務官可以比照法院的司法事務官跟法官助理，就是1比1.4。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們是這樣主張，這個就是院、部講好就好，因為如果在私底下講，你們真的很會計較，我們不希望你們一邊高、一邊低。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員澄清，我們沒有計較，我們是要解決問題，因為我們的工作量真的是非常大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！在你們這個政策決定以後，後面的一些事務都會有一些考量，我們會支持減輕基層人員的負擔，但是我們認為基層人員的負擔不是只有工作量的問題，還有包括工作風險的問題，所以我重申，對於他們目前所面臨到因為有疏失而需國賠的風險，是不是可以透過保險的機制分攤，還有對於人力的進用、未來業務的多少或增減及以後的去化，都要一併的想好，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，那接下來我們請羅智強委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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«法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具 «法院組織法第二十六條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":346.484,"end":350.506,"text":"我請教法務部部長,你所知道目前我們刑事執行人員有沒有投保這個責任保險?麥克風,聲音怎麼樣?"},{"start":372.747,"end":394.42,"text":"這個司法院的確是在對民事執行處有這樣的一個責任的一個保險有嗎我不曉得但是我問你刑事執行人員有沒有這樣的責任險那個這部分其實部分的檢察機關齁大概執行科齁他是有參與這個好很好來往下看所以呢目前司法人員遭國賠求償的時候吧包括檢察官他雖然呢要求償的金額是一萬二但是這個風險讓他壓力很大"},{"start":396.061,"end":398.725,"text":"六十六條之五條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第"},{"start":412.847,"end":422.651,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期"},{"start":440.526,"end":443.228,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．一條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":461.886,"end":463.427,"text":"六十九條之五條附表修正草案．立法院第一十九條之五條附表修正草案．立法院主席"},{"start":491.673,"end":493.455,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":506.067,"end":529.751,"text":"十四徵查提起公訴實施公訴檢查事務官是受檢察官的指揮可以包括實施搜索可以包括詢問告訴人告發人相助檢察官執行的業務檢察官助理能做這些事情嗎?他不行這是剛剛的問題來我現在人事總署你們的人事總署對於我剛剛有提這個意見你們對於檢察官要偵測助理你們認為你們的看法是什麼?"},{"start":531.069,"end":542.09,"text":"我們最主要知道檢察事務官其實缺額率還蠻高的我們認為說這一塊人力補齊檢察事務官的缺額蠻高的檢察事務官可以協助檢察官做剛剛那個比較重要的核心事務對不對那你們希望怎麼樣"},{"start":543.822,"end":564.653,"text":"當然是希望能夠盡快來補足檢察事務官那至於他們要求的檢察官助理呢?檢察官助理呢?你覺得他能做什麼事?因為我們知道他們去年十月才用那剛剛其實也有提到是可能在收集一些資料的部分是有一些助理但我們希望實施一年之後是不是到今年年底相關的報告出來我們再來看看這些要不要法治化好部長"},{"start":565.892,"end":575.518,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．事由．立法院等16人擬具 «法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．事由．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":595.49,"end":596.37,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案件事項．一．一．一．一．一．一．一"},{"start":619.938,"end":628.207,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一）三）二十三條附表修正草案．一）三．二十三條附表修正草案．一．三．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草"},{"start":644.059,"end":644.74,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":652.008,"end":656.33,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．三條附表修正草案．一．二．三條附表修正草案．一．二．三條附表修正草案．一．二．三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":678.584,"end":706.38,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案件事,以後沒有這一路之後怎麼安排?要趕快想清楚好不好?好那最後呢我們就是這樣希望今天呢我們在支持你們的同時啊你們目前的要求是不是要比你們的那個附表當中編制數是跟檢查是跟法官助理一樣多嗎?市長還是部長?我們提的是我們有那個那個版本提行政務的來人事總署他們目前的附表裡面的所要用的原額跟法官助理比起來是多還少?"},{"start":707.572,"end":719.546,"text":"他們是打算要一樣就是跟檢察事務官的這個配比是跟檢察事務官一樣還是跟法官助理的鞭子一樣其實應該是檢察事務官檢察事務官那目前法官助理跟司法事務官是不是一樣多"},{"start":720.466,"end":741.908,"text":"他們現在目前法官助理還有司法事務官部分是1比1.4司法事務官是1法官助理是1.4應該是法官是1然後司法事務官加上法官助理是1.4那未來檢察官跟檢察官事務官和檢察官助理是不是也是這樣的比例"},{"start":743.464,"end":760.741,"text":"市長您比較辛苦您趕快講我們在行政院協調結果未來我們希望這個檢察官助理跟檢察事務官比照法院的檢察事務官跟法官助理1比1.4您不是這樣主張啦齁這個院部講好就好因為書底下講齁您會很會計較我們希望不一樣說齁你們一邊高一邊低齁"},{"start":763.503,"end":778.653,"text":"二）委員陳慶宏我們沒有那個計較齁我們事業是解決我們那個真的是工作量非常好啦這個齁計較都是以後你們這個政策決定後後面的一些事務上都會有一些考量啦我還是我們會支持減輕基層人員的負擔但我們認為基層人員的負擔不是只有工作量的問題還包括工作風險的問題所以我重申對於他們目前"},{"start":784.737,"end":795.67,"text":"所面臨到的這個國賠的這個疏失的風險是不是可以透過保險的制裁方法分攤對於人力的禁用跟未來業務的多或增或減以後的去化要一併的想好可以嗎好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154157","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154157","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618c8895670bff72f66cce632df23284be63d7cb5f521f67a89a6a34765b9d30d1a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:06:51 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10:15:52","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-24","start_time":"2024-06-24T10:06:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-24T10:15:52+08:00","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":403,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時7分）謝謝主席。我們請鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長上台。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長早。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，今天審查法院組織法部分條文修正草案，主要是讓檢察官助理法制化而提出修法，誠如修正草案裡面所寫，而相關部會的書面報告也都有提及。近年來因為電信詐騙案件爆量，讓地檢署新收案件數爆增，也讓基層檢察官的工作負載超量、過勞，苦不堪言，不但有違釋字785號解釋對健康權的保障，長時間高壓、高工時的環境以及眼前處理不完的案件，或許也是造成檢察官離職、出走的原因。","由於法務部在打詐行動綱領當中主要負責懲詐部分，為維持偵查量能，改善檢察官的工作環境，過去一段時間也有諸多討論，包括人力增補、工作簡化以及檢警分工和科技輔助的手段等等，但人力調整成效是最直接，也最能達成目標的一個方式。所以今天討論檢察官助理的法制化、常態化，我們都應該給予支持……"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：適當地讓人力增補，相信一定可以舒緩現在這麼不好的工作環境。在這裡我想先瞭解一下目前檢察官助理工作上的情形，我們當然不希望為了舒緩過勞問題，結果造成另一群人爆肝，所以我想先請教部長，就法務部所掌握的出勤狀況來看，檢察官助理加班的情形嚴不嚴重？這是第一點，有沒有可能假日他們還要上班？第二個，在經費上，檢察署都讓大家領到實質申報的加班費嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在檢察官助理是約用人員，是依勞基法來訂勞動契約的，所以加班費就是依勞動基準法的相關規定辦理。據我所瞭解，現在每個月的加班可以報領到3,000元，我們非常重視勞工……"],["陳委員俊宇：都有實領？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對！我們非常重視勞工權益的保障，會完全落實勞基法的規定。"],["陳委員俊宇：假日還會上班嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：完全按照勞基法的規定來處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，就工作內容部分來說，簡報上的資料是宜蘭地檢署的招考簡章，從內容來看，比較屬於核心事物，然而機關所設定的工作內容、範圍似乎略有差異。我想請教部長，在助理的業務範圍上，是讓各檢察機關因地制宜？還是有通用的規範來遵循，進而規劃一致性的訓練？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。其實法務部定有工作指引，分六大項，雖然比較繁瑣，但總歸一句話：就是屬於內部性的事務處理。因為每個地檢署的情況不一樣，所以我們授權可以在六大工作項目裡做一些任務、業務上的分配。至於招考與工作內容，也都在這六大項工作指引範圍內，不可超過法務部的工作指引。"],["陳委員俊宇：都在規範的六大範圍之內？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，要在這裡面去做工作分配。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外我想請教的是，現在編制的檢察事務官同樣非常辛苦，也是工作量非常大的一群人。但從法院組織法第六十六條之三來看，檢察事務官受檢察官的指揮，處理的事務包括搜索、扣押、勘驗、執行、拘提等犯罪追溯的相關工作，且他們在處理事務的同時間，也具有司法警察的身分。我們回過頭來看，現在檢察官助理的修法內容，同樣是承檢察官之命，不過辦理的事務多為資料的整理、法律的分析，跟偵查是比較沒有關聯的，我想請教部長，會不會有檢察官的助理也變成檢察事務官助理的情形變相出現，就是他是檢察官的助理，可是後來變成是檢察事務官助理的情形？檢察官助理和檢察事務官之間，權責上會不會產生重疊的狀況？在實際的工作上應該要如何互動及合作，才能夠達到最理想的效益？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員的關心，我想檢察事務官的確是檢察官得力的助手，但是以前那個設計，檢察事務官是王朝、馬漢條款，他是直接可以參與案件核心的偵辦，而且他有強制處分權的處理，譬如搜索、扣押，也就是剛才委員所講的，他有對外產生公權力的一個作為，事實上，他是司法警察官，他是具有一定的偵查權限，但是檢察官助理是完全沒有，他只有負責事務性的處理。其實委員，現在的打詐，我們那個附表非常的繁瑣，證據其實是很多的，所以要如何去分類、標示，甚至幫檢察官去整理這個標示，這個就要花很多的時間，以前檢察官是自己處理，後來有檢察事務官之後，其實也會請他來處理。我想我們的檢察事務官跟檢察官不應該去處理這些內部事務性的事情，就像我們以前的傳票也不會由檢察官自己寫，也是要由錄事來寫，來做一個製作，所以我們這些事務性的事情，很多繁瑣的事務性事情，必須要由檢察官助理來做，我們讓檢察官、檢察事務官集中他們辦案的能量去做有效打擊犯罪的作為，讓詐團企業及其他侵害的犯罪能夠被遏止，我想這是我們最大的目的。"],["陳委員俊宇：從去年的10月，我們開始陸續進用了檢察官的助理，至今也超過半年，我們從人事總處那邊所提出的意見，希望約用的檢察官助理實際運作一年之後，再來評估是否將這部分法制化，這部分是不是請教部長，依照您到任到現在的觀察，目前檢察官助理運用上的效益，法務部是如何來評估？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會請各地檢署來填報檢察官助理進用情形，定期填報各地檢署自僱檢察官助理的人力運用情形，以及效益評估的調查表，我們會再做一個彙整，我們也會召集會議請地檢署來報告運用情形，我想這個部分我們做一個整體的效益評估。"],["陳委員俊宇：如果我們立法院這邊修法進程順利的話，正式將檢察官助理入法，對於目前已經在各檢察署工作的這些約用的檢察官助理，他們也是經過考試選拔，有實務經驗的人才，在法務部後續的規劃上，他們的工作權利會不會被剝奪？有沒有保障？還是直接會終止他們的契約？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想將這部分入法，其實它是一個法制的、法定的職位，我想他們的保障會更好。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒問題吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒問題。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，以上。謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","下一位，我們請鍾佳濱委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草\n案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」\n案、(三)委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1136501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.13221875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.585968750000003,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.26909375,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.04034375,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.60534375,"end":36.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.447218750000005,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.165343750000005,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.29721875,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":102.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.51284375,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.79096875,"end":106.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.11971875,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.96721875,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.05909375,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.88909375,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.39096875,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.52534375000002,"end":157.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.93034375000002,"end":158.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.72346875000002,"end":174.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.95909375000002,"end":163.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.42971875,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.86284375000002,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.43221875,"end":190.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.92096875000001,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.24159375000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":225.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.35846875000001,"end":227.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.10096875000002,"end":227.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.30346875,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.32034375,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.44096875000002,"end":238.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.96346875,"end":270.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.03471875,"end":273.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.06846875,"end":273.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.08534375,"end":273.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.35534375000003,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.40596875,"end":286.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.63596875,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.96284375000005,"end":443.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.60971875,"end":400.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.03346875000005,"end":471.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.51346875,"end":449.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.85096875000005,"end":449.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.63221875000005,"end":480.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.22159375,"end":494.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.83971875000003,"end":523.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.7465937500001,"end":523.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.0503437500001,"end":534.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.27284375,"end":531.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.24284375,"end":537.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.1453437499999,"end":537.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.9553437500001,"end":538.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.6809687500001,"end":541.97159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.581,"end":14.461,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":23.629,"end":40.28,"text":"部長今天我們要審查的是有關這個法院組織法部分的修正條文那其中主要是要讓檢察官的這個助理法制化而提出的修法那誠如剛剛我們這個修正草案裡面所寫的"},{"start":41.561,"end":44.284,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案件爆料,讓地檢署新搜案件數暴增,也讓基層檢察官在工作負載"},{"start":63.821,"end":77.611,"text":"四至七八五號對健康權的保障、長時間高壓高工時的環境以及眼前處理不完的案件或許也是造成檢察官離職還有出走的原因。」"},{"start":79.502,"end":82.985,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":102.602,"end":106.245,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":111.044,"end":133.536,"text":"所以今天在討論檢察官助理的這個法制化和常態化我們都應該給予支持適當的讓人力增補我相信一定可以舒緩我們現在這個這麼不好的這種工作環境那這邊我想先了解一下檢察官的助理目前工作上的情形我們當然不希望為了舒緩過勞的問題結果造成另一群人的"},{"start":134.196,"end":137.599,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":158.952,"end":163.996,"text":"四條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條"},{"start":175.484,"end":177.465,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案．"},{"star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案。"},{"start":326.164,"end":355.246,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案 與偵查是比較沒有關聯那我想請教部長是會不會有檢察官的助理也變成這個檢察事務官助理的情形變相就是他是檢察官的助理可是後來變成是檢察事務官的助理的情形那檢察官助理和檢察事務官之間權責上會不會產生重疊的狀況在實際的這個工作上應該要如何互動及合作才能夠達到最理想的這個效益"},{"start":355.846,"end":361.988,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":379.073,"end":394.017,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十三條附"},{"start":406.92,"end":411.682,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．"},{"start":436.152,"end":441.215,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":452.543,"end":461.388,"text":"四條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":472.677,"end":480.602,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案例 及法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案案例 及法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案案例"},{"start":495.432,"end":500.893,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":524.119,"end":525.841,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案。"}]}},{"id":"154156","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154156","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618c58bd1780b07a441ace632df23284be63d7cb5f521f67a89a1e9d41fe4acbdea15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:54:55 - 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案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第六十"},{"start":253.445,"end":282.44,"text":"一定不會因為這個裁判書簡化因為依法必須記載不可能沒有特別是說得心證的理由我想委員也很了解今天你到底為什麼這麼叛這一部分當然不會簡化但是可以簡化一些跟為什麼這麼叛並沒有很關係的比如說委員也很清楚我們的裁判裡面比如說那個兩兆的這些陳述啊非常的冗長非常的冗長攻擊防禦非常的繁複裁判書在必要的部分以外部分我們是覺得說好像現在跟真正的勝敗"},{"start":283.3,"end":287.761,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案件,並沒有去動到裁判書構成的核心。我每個禮拜固定有三天的時間在做選民服務,我看到很多起訴書,或者看過很多裁判書啦。檢察官的起訴書現在已經夠簡化了。我認為也夠清楚,證據清單也列得很清楚,增點的部分也列得很清楚。可是你法院要特別注意喔。"},{"start":311.866,"end":321.588,"text":"九十七條附表修正草案案案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第九十七條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第九十七條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第九十七條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第九十七條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第九十七條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第九十七條附表修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「法院組織法第九十七條附表修正草案"},{"start":341.664,"end":342.646,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案件。"},{"start":350.981,"end":354.283,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14條附表修正草案（事由．立法院組織法第"},{"start":372.697,"end":380.245,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案件,而此法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,而此法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,而此法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,而此法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案 案件,而此法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案"},{"start":397.657,"end":419.694,"text":"那個我簡單跟委員報告其他部分我們行事廳廳長可以補充那這個部長先請回部長先請回來因為這個協商程序我們所知這部分在訴訟審理過程中也要看檢察官那邊的意願之前之前我們是你不覺得這個數字很怪嗎是那我們也是希望說廳長你有沒有覺得很怪你我就怎麼看我都覺得怎麼怪"},{"start":422.056,"end":423.356,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":443.604,"end":452.806,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":472.99,"end":478.399,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及"},{"start":488.609,"end":494.755,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":514.079,"end":542.01,"text":"其實我到我這樣覺得啦不管是檢察官助理啊或法官助理啊你去把它做一個增加你說是不是就會去改善目前司法事務上現在的焦慮或者說人力做一個填補那把這個這個現在過勞的情況去做一個改變司法工作人員的辛勞外界其實真的是知道這也是一個不爭的一個事實但是呢我必須要去提醒就是說走進這個法院裡面"},{"start":543.931,"end":564.867,"text":"全都是老百姓。走到這個法院裡面的其實我們這整個訴訟制度倒不是為檢察官或者為法官而存在是為老百姓而存在我很擔心你們弄到最後整套整個訴訟司法體制的運作中的一個核心你去把它給改變掉所以"},{"start":566.548,"end":587.92,"text":"我看在場大家都是法界的精英啊﹖很多的專業人士啊﹖那你們一直我們一直在從司法改革我們這個講了幾十年老百姓都其實都體會不到像今天談的兩關助理也好你說你們司法院人不夠再補給你們也好我們談待再多老百姓也沒有感覺啊"},{"start":589.417,"end":592.539,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．"},{"start":607.128,"end":611.27,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":635.523,"end":646.147,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案件事項（事由．立法院第11屆第16期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案案件事項（事由．立法院及第七十三條附表修正草案案件事項．立法院及第七十三條附表修正草案案件事項．立法院及第七十三條附表修正草案案件事項．立法院及第七十三條附表修正草案案件事項．"},{"start":661.212,"end":665.882,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條文及第七十三條條"},{"start":672.671,"end":676.952,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．委員翁曉玲等16人擬具"},{"start":697.875,"end":699.156,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．事由．法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．事由．"}]}},{"id":"154155","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154155","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618c9bb8e4ce9c3709ecce632df23284be63b3ffda9d38e3ccc6b4e186dc6bcc04005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:43:56 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個就是我們現在我們這個這個剛才很多委員都關心修法的進度這個部分我想這個我們法務部也有必要要做說明"},{"start":156.651,"end":176.545,"text":"但是最重要是我們檢察官助理的這個定位從一開始到現在到未來的法制化我覺得這個部分要談清楚因為我們去年所拼用的那一批其實是用打詐的專案下去拼用的他是因為打詐專案下去拼用用第二預備金下去做的最重要是說"},{"start":177.854,"end":181.717,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":207.814,"end":208.975,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案件。"},{"start":217.891,"end":221.795,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第14會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":237.751,"end":261.809,"text":"我看到你們有訂一個檢察官經用檢察官助理的參考指引對大概有六項的一個工作的一個指引那個六項工作的確是因為你們在報告裡面說齁你們在報告裡面提到說這個這個從去年十月開始齁你們報告裡面提到說成效良好啦現在這個這個用的這個檢察官檢察官助理成效良好但是我就覺得很奇怪到現在才"},{"start":262.789,"end":290.884,"text":"才幾個月才半年八個月左右怎麼現在這個這個整個你們真的做過成效評估嗎跟葛委員報告齁這個成效好我想直接最感受的就是基層檢察官他的感受是非常好的因為的確可以減輕減輕我們檢察官這譬如說檢察官一定覺得對啦他那個那個製作譬如說我們那個所謂成效良好齁包括我剛剛所提的這些問題以及我們實際禁用對檢察官來講當然是是是有增加助理當然是很好"},{"start":291.104,"end":292.905,"text":"六十六條之三條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":313.51,"end":324.056,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一）三．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．"},{"start":338.363,"end":364.627,"text":"一個檢察官助理其實他可以處理幫助處理這內部是新聞的案件事實上已經達到了那個那個一個人有40件的一個案件了。好部長這很好啦齁而且我也知道事實上一定有幫助啦不然我們這委員會不會安排在這邊安排說希望你但是所謂的成效報告成效評估報告不只是這些數字啊他還包括他這個任用裡面我等一下後面還有很多問題是不是這個主席我們先請人事總署來麻煩人事總署"},{"start":372.756,"end":381.022,"text":"六十九條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十九條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":401.246,"end":407.067,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．一）二十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":431.252,"end":432.053,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案案案案"},{"start":458.32,"end":459.26,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":475.186,"end":486.032,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第12屆第13屆議事委員會第13屆議事委員會及第14屆議事委員會及第14屆議事委員會及第15屆議事委員會及第16屆議事委員會及第16屆議事委員會及第17屆議事委員會及第18屆議事委員會及第18屆議事委員會及第18屆議事委員會及第19屆議事委員會及第19屆議事委員會及第19屆議事委員會及第20屆議事委員會及第20屆議事委員會及第20屆議事委員會及第21屆議事委員會及第21屆議事委員會及第22屆議事委員會及第22"},{"start":499.019,"end":499.699,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案案。"},{"start":518.291,"end":523.552,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":539.696,"end":562.262,"text":"第四點第二款的禁用人員來禁用。」這是他法令依據的齁。那禁用之後同樣的這個第四點裡面他就有規定說主管機關你合撥經費這個必須事請機關提供前一年或前次約用人員運用成效檢討報告。我們現在事實上還沒有到一年啊。"},{"start":563.3,"end":592.531,"text":"還沒有到一年所以我剛剛一直在講的成效評估報告是法定的成效評估報告不是剛剛我們所講的基層檢察官的個人感受或者是我們所做的簡單統計統計數字對於這個詐騙案件的統計而已而是我所提的這個法定的這個評估報告這評估報告事實上要一年之後要到今年十月才滿一年嘛今年十月滿一年之後才能進行評估報告嘛評估報告進行大概給你們一兩個月來進行大概也要到明年一月才有辦法真正提出這個成效報告對不對"},{"start":594.8,"end":620.871,"text":"這個我們就會依時程來做評估報告的一個製作所以這個我提這個是希望說等一下我們委員會在審查的時候能夠這個大家能夠斟酌啦因為他這個我們還是希望說能夠讓法務部給法務部這樣的時間你讓這個適用的時間至少在這一年一年完成之後這個評估報告完成了我們不希望說在法制化的過程裡面我們訂定了一個法制結果最後未來"},{"start":621.611,"end":623.892,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":651.971,"end":653.233,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"154154","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154154","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618cb45ce7b3441da274ce632df23284be63b3ffda9d38e3ccc68eac4c02589cf07d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"09:30:42 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09:43:27","影片長度":"00:12:45","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-24","start_time":"2024-06-24T09:30:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-24T09:43:27+08:00","duration":765,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":230,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（9時31分）主席。有關今天排這個議程，基本上要怎麼樣讓我們國家詐騙的防制、阻詐、打詐、懲詐能夠立刻有效能，本席基本上是支持的，但是用什麼樣的方式才能夠達成這個目的？這個有必要來討論。我們先請人事總處。"],["主席：請人事總處。"],["傅委員崐萁：對於本院委員的提案，對於法院組織法第六十六條之五以及第七十三條附表修正草案，現在要求增加檢察官助理是為了防治打詐，人事總處這邊的基本意見是怎麼樣？"],["張處長翠娟：跟委員還有相關機關代表說明。行政院在107年開始，我們配合整個打詐還有釋字第785號健康權的維護，且刑事案件、新收案件的增加，從107年一直到113年，其實我們已經給了八百八十多個員額，明年還會再給118，這幾年總共給1,000名員額。","去年整個行政院在討論打詐綱領的時候有提到第一線的檢察官其實需要有一些人力，因為畢竟檢察事務官進用之後還要再受訓，這是相當長的一段時間，因為他們有固定訓練的時間，所以希望能夠增加一些輔助的人力，所以在行政院相關方案裡面，其實是有給部裡面能夠來補助地方政府來進用所謂的檢察官助理。去年……"],["傅委員崐萁：地方政府？"],["張處長翠娟：地方檢察署，就是地檢署這邊來進用，所以去年大概進用了100位。"],["傅委員崐萁：臨時人員嘛？"],["張處長翠娟：對，但今年改稱為約用人員，這個部分今年有進用了一百五十……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以基本上，針對本院委員的草案，您是支持的嘛？"],["張處長翠娟：我們希望能夠在進用檢察官助理一年之後，我們來評估這部分真正的人力。大家知道檢察事務官其實應該才是檢察官最主要的輔助人力，因為檢察官助理本身是在蒐集一些資訊，可能在整個偵查核心這一塊能夠提供的部分，我們建議是不是能夠在實施一年之後再來看看這個法制化……"],["傅委員崐萁：現在已經實施一年了。"],["張處長翠娟：還沒，去年10月份才開始。"],["傅委員崐萁：到今年嘛？"],["張處長翠娟：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：滿了以後人事總處給我一份資料好不好？"],["張處長翠娟：再給一份資料？"],["傅委員崐萁：滿一年以後，人事總處給我們一份資料好不好？"],["張處長翠娟：我們就是會配合部裡面的評估資料。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。請數發部。"],["胡副署長貝蒂：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：對於打詐的部分，數發部這兩、三年總共花了幾百億，成立數發部花了幾百億，有沒有什麼打詐的成效？"],["胡副署長貝蒂：我們今年編了一個3億的社會發展的預算，然後進行打詐相關的工作，所以在……"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有什麼成效？"],["胡副署長貝蒂：有，比如說我們在遊戲的部分，被「165」通報的案件數也降低了，或者是在電商平臺上面相關的危險平臺的通報也是降低的。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你們編了三億多？"],["胡副署長貝蒂：這個是針對……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們出國旅遊編了多少錢？"],["胡副署長貝蒂：可能三千多萬的部分是整個部裡面的預算，包括整個國際對接的部分，然後當然還有一些……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們花了兩、三百億，裡面有3億是拿來針對打詐的部分……"],["胡副署長貝蒂：這個是額外的，過去我們在做電商平臺的管理或者是遊戲的管理，也都有相關的經費……"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝。請NCC。"],["李專門委員文秀：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：最近這幾年，我們打詐的成效如何？"],["李專門委員文秀：我們一直持續的在對於電信事業的督導，對於電信事業如何瞭解他的客戶然後掌控，有一些有效遏阻，可是具體數據要配合法務部、內政部這邊才……"],["傅委員崐萁：是配合法務部跟內政部？"],["李專門委員文秀：我們本來就有在做，我們對電信事業督導本來就有包含這一塊，但是如果具體成效要算那個績效的話……"],["傅委員崐萁：您覺得成效如何？"],["李專門委員文秀：我們一直積極努力在做。"],["傅委員崐萁：用積極努力是嗎？好，謝謝。再來請金管會。"],["張副組長世昌：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：打詐的成效，金管會去置評一下，覺得怎麼樣？"],["張副組長世昌：跟委員報告，我們金管會督導金融機構做疑似交易的攔阻，去年攔阻金額已經達到76億。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，聽起來金管會比較有數字，持續加油，好不好？"],["張副組長世昌：好，謝謝委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：再過來我們請法務部，請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，我們來看一下，這麼多年來整個中央政府對於打詐、行政院對於打詐的整體成效，本席已經跟你提過很多次了，我們再看一下108年的3萬4,947件，到去年的22萬9,711件，增幅達557%，到底是法務部的無能還是行政院整個體制都癱瘓了？花了這麼多錢，越打越詐，部長有什麼看法，告訴全國國人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：本部是負責懲詐，我們會全力嚴查、查緝、溯源、斷根，這就是代表我們懲詐……"],["傅委員崐萁：溯源、斷根？"],["鄭部長銘謙：努力的一個結果……"],["傅委員崐萁：溯源、斷根的成果怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：到今年為止，我們是已經穩定下來了。"],["傅委員崐萁：穩定下來是詐騙案穩定成長嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：整個因為查獲量的增加，我想這已經彰顯我們團隊全力偵查……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們今天懲詐有沒有達到嚇阻的效果嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：至少要先把人抓到啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：人先抓到，案子不斷的在往上直線增加……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我想這是冰山一角，我們想讓冰山整個浮出嘛，這是我們努力的成果嘛！"],["傅委員崐萁：冰山一角、冰山浮出，所以持續的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為法務部是負責懲詐的部分，所以我們是希望如果有這些，我們全部都把它查緝殆盡。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們現在來看一下，根據今天行政院數發部所提，行政院112年5月4號通過新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版有四大面向，第一個「識詐」認識的識，由內政部擔任統籌機關，第二「堵詐」，防堵的堵，堵詐由NCC負責統籌，堵詐現在堵出了什麼成果，識詐識出了什麼成果？第三個「阻詐」，阻擋詐騙由金管會負責統籌辦理，最後第四是「懲詐」，由法務部負責擔任統籌機關，結果這四個主要的部會負責四大面向，我們現在的詐騙案還是持續地往上攀升，本席比較好奇，我請教一下法務部，您認為增加檢察官助理是不是很重要？"],["鄭部長銘謙：很重要。"],["傅委員崐萁：很重要？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是檢察官殷切期盼的一個人力需求。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。剛剛人事總處也講了，我們看一下113年地檢署的員額一覽表，我們先來看檢察事務官的缺額還有225名沒有補，現在要來150名檢察官助理，檢察事務官到現在還補不齊，然後又來要檢察官的助理，不是不可以啦！既然部長也認為很重要，那請問行政院的版本是什麼？法務部的版本是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：本部在去年11月已經把整個修正草案，就第六十六條之五跟第七十三條的修正草案已經送行政院了，現在有報行政院，因為法規主管機關是司法院，所以現在在研議當中。"],["傅委員崐萁：去年是什麼時候送行政院？"],["鄭部長銘謙：11月17號。"],["傅委員崐萁：到現在幾月了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是由行政院、是行政院跟……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以行政院認為無關緊要嘛！到現在……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我們在2月的協調會……"],["傅委員崐萁：行政院的版本到現在都還沒有提出來，所以本席認為行政院對你們內部意見的整合到底是怎麼樣，還有你們打詐的基本策略是怎麼樣，還是不是在法務部調查局成立打詐專責的單位？在那裡擴張員額來針對打詐的部分，也是法務部所屬嘛！對不對？本席覺得如果越打越詐的話，就應該來討論到底哪裡出了問題，行政院必須要統籌，跟立法院要說明清楚，而且必須行政院的版要送過來，行政院的版送過來以後，本黨也會提出相關支持的版本，這是一個最基本的，因為打詐是由行政院統籌，統籌到現在越打越詐，到底成效如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不贊成越打越詐，我們現在是把那些詐團一一揪出，我想我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：我們現在是看整體的數字。"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且剛剛委員有提……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，這不是口舌之快，人民是看數字的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有口舌之快，剛才……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席不跟你討論這個啦！你數字降下來的時候，本席就相信，就這麼簡單，因為這個就是成效，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：另外，請部長回去行政院院會反映，儘快把行政院的版本提出來，本席恭候，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。人事總處，剛剛傅委員請你們補充的資料要麻煩你們，一個月內嗎？"],["張處長翠娟：一年。"],["主席：一年到的時候，對，不好意思，那你們到時候要記得補充。"],["傅委員崐萁：108年那個應該一週內要送本委員會。"],["主席：剛剛108年的部分可能就麻煩你們一週內一定要送到本委會來，謝謝。","接下來我們請沈發惠委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 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官助理"},{"start":92.987,"end":96.374,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案 案。"},{"start":100.679,"end":106.14,"text":"六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席劉建國等16人擬具"},{"start":128.146,"end":129.827,"text":"三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":154.56,"end":165.27,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第1會期司法及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":180.077,"end":182.779,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）二十三條附表修正草案．一"},{"start":205.912,"end":208.594,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":232.432,"end":235.773,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":244.844,"end":257.148,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．三．二十七條附表修正草案．一．三．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":270.751,"end":273.014,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":278.511,"end":283.756,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案"},{"start":311.118,"end":313.484,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":322.87,"end":329.813,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":351.905,"end":352.667,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":370.759,"end":374.222,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":399.281,"end":401.843,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案案案案。"},{"start":422.069,"end":448.22,"text":"我們再看一下一百零八年的三萬四千九百四十七件到去年的二十二萬九千七百一十一件征服到五百五十七個百分點法務部到底是法務部的無能還是整個行政院整個體制都癱瘓了花了這麼多錢越打越炸"},{"start":449.926,"end":451.987,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":469.502,"end":476.526,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":495.675,"end":516.952,"text":"因為這個是本部法務部是負責懲詐的一個部分所以我們是希望如果有這些我們全部都把它查清帶進來我們現在看一下這個根據啊這個今天行政院書法部所提出來"},{"start":518.809,"end":538.005,"text":"行政院一百一一十二年五月四號通過新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領一點五版四大面向第一個認識的是試詐由內政部擔任統籌機關第二堵詐防堵的堵堵詐"},{"start":539.133,"end":553.782,"text":"由NCC負責統籌,賭詐現在賭出了什麼成果,試詐試出了什麼成果。第三個主詐,主擋詐騙,監管會負責統籌辦理。最後第四是懲詐,法務部負責統籌機關。結果這四個主要的部會負責四大面向,"},{"start":568.24,"end":575.686,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":586.721,"end":607.493,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":616.331,"end":620.093,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":631.038,"end":655.875,"text":"那請問行政院的版本是什麼法務部的版本是什麼本部那個已經把在去年11月已經把那個整個一個修正草案就是六十六條之五跟七十三條就已經送行政院的他現在是有報行政院行政現在跟司法院因為法規主管機關是司法院所以現在在所以說去年去年什麼時候送行政院11月到現在幾月了到現在幾月了"},{"start":657.714,"end":665.458,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第23屆第24屆第25屆第26屆第27屆第28屆第29屆第30屆第40屆第41屆第41屆第41屆第42屆第42屆第43屆第43屆第44屆第44屆第45屆第46屆第47屆第47屆第48屆第48屆第49屆第49屆第50屆第50屆第51屆第51屆第52屆第52屆第53"},{"start":687.918,"end":699.586,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":717.961,"end":728.291,"text":"四條本黨也會提出相關於支持的版本這是一個最基本的因為打詐是由行政院在統籌統籌到現在越打越詐"},{"start":729.656,"end":734.519,"text":"到底成效如何?我們現在是看整體的數字。部長,這不是口舌之快。人民是看數字的。本席不跟你討論這個啦。你數字降下來的時候本席就相信啦。就這麼簡單啦。因為這個就是成效。好不好?"},{"start":752.088,"end":753.491,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案案。"}]}},{"id":"154153","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154153","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618ce3a098e6f6311d86ce632df23284be63b3ffda9d38e3ccc627d7f1e23708bebc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:17:15 - 09:30:35","影片長度":"00:13:20","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-24","start_time":"2024-06-24T09:17:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-24T09:30:35+08:00","duration":800,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":33,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-33"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時17分）謝謝主席，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。打擊詐騙犯罪所需要的人力、所需要的資源、所需要的科技偵查手段，我相信這個會期到這裡，部長可以充分感覺到在野黨是全力支持，但是在另外一個方面，當我們發現到詐騙集團猖獗，裡面竟然有檢察官涉入，這件事情要嚴肅地追究責任。之前有一次，你沒有來司法及法制委員會，我已經公開就教過當時的法務部次長，我說詐騙集團跟不肖的律師集團勾結，一起在搞詐騙，結果竟然有檢察官還鼓勵他的律師男友去加入這個詐騙集團，後來他的律師男友不僅僅是加重詐欺，還依照組織犯罪防制條例被起訴，檢察官鼓勵他的律師男友去加入犯罪組織啊！駭人聽聞，更離譜的事情是什麼？更離譜的事情是他的律師男友所在幫忙辯護、偵查當中的案件，結果接下來在公訴的時候是這個檢察官在蒞庭，這件事情部長有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們也責成臺高檢來做行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候責成臺高檢進行調查的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們是在6月12日。"],["黃委員國昌：6月12日嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員國昌：那之前法務部在做什麼？之前法務部在做什麼？這件事情法務部是6月12號才知道嗎？這件事情法務部什麼時候知道的？那個犯罪組織什麼時候被起訴的？法務部什麼時候知道這件事？為什麼拖到6月12號？請說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分事實上在桃園地檢署已經有做行政調查了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：4月份就行政調查了。"],["黃委員國昌：對於桃園地檢署4月份所做的行政調查，法務部滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們尊重桃園地檢的……"],["黃委員國昌：桃園地檢的行政調查，法務部是一句尊重就可以解決的嗎？分兩個部分，6月12號你們交給臺高檢，臺高檢發出來的聲明稿、法務部的新聞稿全部都是什麼？進行刑事的偵辦嘛！刑事的偵辦歸刑事的偵辦。來看一下你們所發的新聞稿，要求它做的是什麼？刑事的偵查喔！刑事的偵辦喔！現在我要處理的事情是什麼？刑事的偵查、刑事的偵辦交給檢察官去偵辦犯罪，我沒有意見，我有意見的是什麼？我有意見的是你們的行政調查報告在哪裡？你說之前桃園地檢署有做行政調查，也移到檢察官評鑑委員會了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我上一次質詢的時候就問了嘛！移送給檢察官評鑑委員會的事實有包括那一位檢察官竟然在他詐團男友所幫忙辯護的案件當中蒞庭嗎？有包括他在蒞庭的時候竟然沒有就累犯應該加重情形的事實，具體指出證據方法嗎？上一次次長黃謀信說的是這個評鑑沒有包括這個移送的事實，次長講的對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：上次個案評鑑這部分的確是沒有包括。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才問嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這次我們就……"],["黃委員國昌：桃園地檢署的評鑑事實，法務部滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們在6月12號再責令臺高檢直接對桃園地檢做行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：這兩個部分喔！第一個刑事部分，你們發新聞稿說待偵查；第二個部分，行政調查現在有在進行嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在有在進行。"],["黃委員國昌：行政調查報告什麼時候可以出來？需要多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們希望能夠儘速來做一個釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：儘速是多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看整個行政調查中一些需要釐清的事實來做判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才請教部長行政調查需要多久？一個月、兩個月、半年還是一年？通常這種行政調查需要做多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看調查的這些事實。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以需要多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會責請臺高檢盡快釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：所以部長期待的盡快要多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是兩個月？"],["黃委員國昌：我為什麼問部長這個問題？來看一下，從去年我還沒有進入立法院的時候，我在民間社會、我一直在追，洗錢上百億的郭哲敏把他放掉，新北地檢署要出來給大家一個交代。來看一下、請部長看一下，我做了時間序，2023年3月的時候新北地檢署說，因為有刑事案件還在偵辦，所以他不好說明行政調查的結果；等到去年8月的時候，他說被告都全部到案，儘速調查釐清相關刑事及行政責任，適時對外公布；到了今年3月我繼續問，新北地檢署發的新聞稿是什麼？行政調查程序仍在進行、還沒有結案，沒有辦法提供行政調查結果。從去年的3月到今年的3月，整整一年喔！我要的是行政調查的結果，都交不出來啊！現在請問一下，這份行政調查報告做完了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還在進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！我剛才問你嘛！對於法務部來講，所謂的行政調查到底是要進行多久？進行一年多！都已經被彈劾了、移送懲戒法庭了，進行一年多！我們法務部所進行的行政調查報告還沒有出來，這樣的效率部長滿意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們就尊重行政調查機關的……"],["黃委員國昌：我們當然尊重嘛！但問題是什麼？人民在看的是什麼？人都已經放出去了，放出去以後該滅證的、該串供的處理的差不多了，去年8月才抓回來，去年8月抓回來到現在又快一年了，一個行政調查做不出來，這是用行政調查在拖延嗎？這是用行政調查在包庇嗎？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們絕對沒有包庇這些的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你要怎麼解釋？一年多行政調查報告交不出來，我們尊重他的結果是什麼？一年多交不出來！兩年夠不夠、三年夠不夠，還是要五年？"],["鄭部長銘謙：行政調查我們也必須要縝密地去調查，而不是……"],["黃委員國昌：是！到目前為止，都已經被彈劾、移送懲戒法院了，你們還要縝密地調查，搞了一年多耶！連行政調查報告都交不出來，有什麼難以啟齒的理由？都已經被移送懲戒法庭了，行政調查報告還交不出來，今天如果是刑事偵查的話，那個是社會輿論要監督，這是行政調查，行政調查不是法務部應該去負責任的範圍嗎？說一句要大家尊重行政調查，我們都尊重、我也很有耐心的等啊！我從去年3月一路問，問到現在行政調查報告還做不出來！這樣的效率部長可以接受嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會督導。"],["黃委員國昌：會督導！好，我們拭目以待啊！你剛剛說那一個檢察官幫助、鼓勵他的律師男友去加入犯罪組織搞詐騙的，你說那份行政調查報告兩個月可以做出來嘛，剛剛這個是你說的嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會督導他們在……"],["黃委員國昌：好，兩個月可以做出來。這一份已經做了一年多了，還需要再多久？剛剛你不是說你要督導嗎？我相信你的督導啊，剛剛那一份兩個月要做出來，現在這一份拖了一年多，還需要多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我再來瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，有關於科技偵查，我們大家其實都支持，但我最近看到法務部轉來一個函，我看了很震驚，針對網路流量紀錄，我們大家支持在科技偵查所需要的偵查手段，特別是在打擊詐騙，但我看到你們所提出來簡單的一張紙，簡單的一張紙喔！裡面沒有細目、沒有內容，最後只跟大家講說，我們建置這個網路流量紀錄保存，一開始的時候就要花上百億！三大電信業者中每一個電信業者這塊大餅可以分到三十億，這個錢到底是怎麼估算出來的？請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是由調查局跟警政署估算出來的。"],["黃委員國昌：調查局是不是法務部所屬？是吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是啊。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！你作為法務部部長，調查局不是你的轄下機關嗎？所以我現在請教你啊，一開始建置就要一百億是怎麼估算出來的？三大電信業者中每一個電信業者分三十億，結果立法院跟你們要報告，給一張紙喔？拿一張紙來要上百億，這樣對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是建置的，這是屬於技術層面的問題，這部分我想建置機關會做一個評估跟一個……"],["黃委員國昌：好，建置機關的評估，關於這一百億怎麼計算出來的，可不可以提供詳細的內容給司法及法制委員會？而不是只有一張紙啊！打詐需要的我們一定會給後盾，但我看到一張紙一百億的時候，我需要更細的內容才能負責任的做決策嘛，一張紙一百億，三大電信業者各要三十億，怎麼計算出來的？這個費用合理嗎？成本怎麼計算的？需不需要跟司法及法制委員會的委員針對你們估算的細節提供詳細的資料？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來做一個……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？你一百億總有個基礎嘛，你們跟三大電信業者開會的資料、計算的基準、怎麼收費的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：一個禮拜內。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜內提供資料。我先跟大家講一百億是什麼概念啊？調查局一年的預算多少錢，部長知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：真的很抱歉，這個……"],["黃委員國昌：六十九億兩千萬。刑事警察局一年的預算多少？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：三十二億。沒有關係啦，在PPT我都幫你整理好，沒有要考你啦！一百億是什麼概念？一個調查局加一個刑事警察局一年的預算，從人事費到業務費。","我再強調一次，需要的錢、需要的科技偵查手段我們都會支持，但處理的方式絕對不是像現在的法務部一樣，拿一張紙來、A4的紙喔，上面沒有寫幾個字就說要一百億！相關的資料請法務部一個禮拜之內提出來，謝謝。"],["主席：這個部分就麻煩法務部一個禮拜內提出來，謝謝，盡快！","下一位請傅崐萁委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 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案。"},{"start":204.443,"end":227.82,"text":"你說之前桃園地檢署有做行政調查也移到檢察官評鑑委員會了我上一次質詢的時候就問了嘛檢察官評鑑委員會移送給檢察官評鑑委員會的事實有包括那一位檢察官竟然在他詐團男友所幫忙辯護的案件當中力挺嗎"},{"start":229.266,"end":239.557,"text":"有包括說他在立庭的時候竟然沒有就累犯應該加重情形的事實具體指出證據方法嗎?上一次次長黃謀信說的是"},{"start":241.806,"end":260.752,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條之五條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草"},{"start":262.994,"end":282.373,"text":"這兩個部分喔第一個刑事部分刑事的部分你們發新聞稿說在偵查嗎第二個部分行政調查現在有在進行嗎現在有在進行行政調查報告什麼時候可以出來需要多久這部分齁那個我們是希望能夠競速來做一個競速是多久"},{"start":283.697,"end":299.213,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第20次全體委員會第21次全體委員會第22次全體委員會第23次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第25次全體委員會第26次全體委員會第27次全體委員會第28次全體委員會第29次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第30次全體委員會"},{"start":307.213,"end":313.896,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條"},{"start":335.374,"end":358.832,"text":"幾前上百億的郭澤民把他放掉新北地檢署要出來給大家一個交代來看一下請部長看一下我做的時間序2023年3月的時候新北地檢署說因為有刑事案件還在偵辦所以他不好說明行政調查的結果等到去年8月的時候他說"},{"start":361.173,"end":387.46,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 行事及行政責任事實對外公佈。到了今年三月我繼續問新北地檢署發的新聞稿是什麼行政調查程序仍在進行還沒有結案沒有辦法提供行政調查結果從去年的三月到今年的三月整整一年整整一年喔我要的是行政調查的結果"},{"start":388.342,"end":394.286,"text":"都交不出來啊現在來請問一下這一份行政調查報告做完了沒有還在進行中所以嘛我剛才問你嘛對於法務部來講所謂的行政調查到底是要進行多久進行一年多一年多都已經被彈劾了移送懲戒法庭了進行一年多"},{"start":418.41,"end":424.676,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案（"},{"start":441.567,"end":448.453,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":461.414,"end":487.723,"text":"我們絕對沒有包庇的這些的人所以你要怎麼解釋一年多行政調查報告交不出來我們尊重他的結果是什麼一年多交不出來兩年夠不夠三年夠不夠還是要五年還是我們必須要整密的去調查是到目前為止都已經被彈劾移送懲戒法院了你們還要整密的調查搞了一年多欸連行政調查報告都交不出來有什麼難以啟齒的理由"},{"start":492.83,"end":512.361,"text":"有什麼難以啟齒的理由都已經被移送懲戒法庭了欸行政調查報告還交不出來今天如果是刑事偵查的話那個是社會輿論要監督啊這是行政調查欸行政調查不是法務部應該去負責任的範圍嗎"},{"start":515.839,"end":531.973,"text":"所以具要大家尊重行政調查我們都尊重啊我很有耐心的等啊我從去年的三月一路問問到現在問到現在行政調查報告還做不出來這樣的效率部長可以接受嗎我們會督導會督導好我們拭目以待啊你剛剛說那一個檢察官"},{"start":542.86,"end":570.235,"text":"幫助鼓勵他的律師男友去加入犯罪組織搞詐騙的你說那份行政調查報告兩個月可以做出來嗎剛剛這個是你說的嗎好兩個月可以做出來這一份已經做了一年多了還需要再多久剛剛你不是說你要督導嗎我相信你的督導啊剛剛那份兩個月要做出來現在這一份拖了一年多還需要多久"},{"start":572.844,"end":577.825,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":599.571,"end":625.184,"text":"但我看到你們所提出來簡單的一張紙簡單的一張紙喔裡面沒有細目沒有內容最後只跟大家講說我們建制這個網路流量記錄的保存一開始的時候就要花上百億一開始喔就要花上百億三大電信業者每一個電信業者這塊大餅可以分到30億"},{"start":628.37,"end":654.071,"text":"這個錢到底是怎麼估算出來的請部長這個是由調查局跟警政署來估算出來的調查局是不是法務部所屬是吧是啊對啊啊你作為法務部部長調查局不是你的轄下機關嗎所以我現在請教你啊這一百億一開始建制就要一百億是怎麼估算出來的"},{"start":655.438,"end":658.76,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案（事由．法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":670.436,"end":699.218,"text":"這個是建制的這是屬於技術層面的一個問題這部分我想那個建制機關他們會有做一個評估跟一個好建制機關的評估這一百億怎麼計算出來的可不可以提供詳細的內容給司法法制委員會而不是只有一張紙打詐需要的打詐需要的我們一定會給後盾但我看到一張紙一百億的時候我需要更細的內容我才能負責任的做決策嗎"},{"start":700.865,"end":719.169,"text":"一張紙一百億三大電信業者各要三十億怎麼計算出來的這個費用合理嗎成本怎麼計算的需不需要跟司法法制委員會的委員針對你們估算的細節提供詳細的資料來請教部長"},{"start":730.145,"end":730.345,"text":"六十九億兩千萬"},{"start":755.23,"end":758.671,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":772.557,"end":794.014,"text":"我再強調一次需要的錢需要的科技偵查手段我們都會支持但處理的方式絕對不是像現在的法務部一樣拿一張紙來喔A4的紙喔上面沒有寫幾個字就說要一百億相關的資料請法務部一個禮拜之內提出來謝謝好那這個部分就麻煩法務部一個禮拜內提出來好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154152","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154152","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618c83013f3791c8d2b4428ee5c537ab0c8bb3ffda9d38e3ccc6dfe319c4cacb412b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:33:25 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謝謝主席排審關於今天的法案討論可是關於這個法案討論我想我們所有人都有一個共識就是偏鄉條例本來就確實需要討論也需要修正還有包含國體法也是可是如果沒有更廣泛的討論或是更仔細的條文評估"},{"start":25.171,"end":49.779,"text":"所有的討論我都會認為流於形式怎麼說以我認識的偏鄉條例來說目前教育部因為沒有相關的版本提出但是我們在現場看到很多實際上的問題我只舉一個例子過往我們辦公室在協助非常多地方創生還有地方社工而這些人他們可能就是落在所謂學校附近的社區可以作為支持學校教育系統發展非常重要的人力但是在過往偏鄉條例裡面確實第11條有說可以開放偏鄉學校根據"},{"start":54.701,"end":72.219,"text":"實際的需求增聘失資但是校長到底有沒有這樣彈性的人事權導致於我們很多過往教育問題都只有在教育系統裡面解決那現在已經有非常多立法委員也都有意識到所有的教育問題都不能只有在教育系統裡面解決它必須要跟社區環境有關跟整個家庭環境有關"},{"start":72.799,"end":92.45,"text":"而這些在目前我們看到今天排審的法案裡面完全都沒有提到這些事情我個人覺得非常可惜接下來呢包含偏鄉條例過往也有提到所謂區域教育資源中心這也是這麼多年下來大家非常期盼的希望教育資源中心的整合跟相關跨部會的討論可以協助地方老師解決以下我要說的這些問題一、包含行政過量的問題我們光是聽到行政減量確實國教署告訴我們在教育部本部"},{"start":99.494,"end":123.351,"text":"自己確實做了非常多行政減量的工作想要協助地方老師但是令人難過的是其他中央部會包含可能農業部或是國防部、文化部只要任何人認為他們在推廣的業務跟學校有關他們不需要透過教育部同意他們就可以發一紙公文到學校裡面去而這個現象其實國教署也說是你們是知道的但是如何透過國教署或教育部的相關"},{"start":124.111,"end":125.573,"text":"懷疑學校分級的標準三年三年三年年度的討論當然非常重要可是少子化的現象"},{"start":144.971,"end":173.356,"text":"現在的這三年跟未來的三年跟前面的三年已經完全的不一樣我相信教育部也都有相關的認知因此我們也非常期待在相關的全國會議當中一定也要討論到這件事情但是很可惜在今天的版本裡面也沒有提到所以我們會認為今天的討論的版本當然非常感謝主席對於偏鄉教育的關心但是我要說很多的事情我們都沒有全面的討論甚至相關的公聽會相關的座談會或是更多地方專家學者的聲音或者是老師的聲音甚至是偏鄉"},{"start":173.996,"end":175.217,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"154147","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154147","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618cb30cfcf868cc570b428ee5c537ab0c8bb3ffda9d38e3ccc6a602a2cfbf58b3ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:17:32 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若欠缺逐字逐條的比較與討論,縱使立法的方向一致,可是也不算嚴謹。所以最後還是要強調說,超過兩個月的時間真的很長。不排審本席與范委員的提案觀點姿勢體大,還請召委謹慎評估一下。"}]}},{"id":"154146","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154146","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618cc9f04275d47910a0428ee5c537ab0c8bb3ffda9d38e3ccc6b14477705634b9fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"09:14:46 - 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委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人擬具第十六條條文修正草案。 委員馬文君等17人�"},{"start":125.495,"end":145.46,"text":"那上一次那個詢答的時候其實我有問其中一部分包含就是說教育部是不是有其他的方案那教育部後來有部分答詢我但是還沒有完全解答那我想就是今天這個條文如果沒有搭配9任方案的話那我也覺得蠻爭議的"},{"start":147.3,"end":155.466,"text":"教育部自己前面備案的有餘而就開給其他全額補助的這是教育部給我的一個解方我覺得好像爭議會比較少一點那當然整體來講我覺得我們這個偏鄉的這個發展條例用意良好通過之後"},{"start":163.172,"end":182.021,"text":"到目前為止好像少了一個整體的檢討那今天謝謝趙偉排這個部分那我覺得我們應該要往這個整體檢討的方向去理解那要不要修法的話我們可以大家一起來討論那怎麼修啊那我是主張就是說如果那個檢討報告出來之後真的要修可是我們修了就必須修好不能夠遇到什麼問題再修好不好謝謝"},{"start":185.043,"end":186.545,"text":"但我還是要特別強調本席在當第九屆立委的時候通常對於法案的條例教育部通常在前一天"},{"start":204.164,"end":204.685,"text":"第十六條條文修正草案案。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}