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test 123喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂喂"},{"start":561.385,"end":561.525,"text":"委員委員"},{"start":1846.391,"end":1848.091,"text":"主要機關或公立學校為充分考量社會上上多租多"},{"start":1874.359,"end":1898.484,"text":"關心教育還且有心辦學校的自然人或是法人團體的事實因此有必要予以修正增加公開徵求有意願接辦者接續舉辦接續辦學之法律正當程序必確保私立學校教育得以永續發展所以委員林倩綺等18人原提案增地本條例二十四條第二項第三項規定"},{"start":1902.665,"end":1919.391,"text":"並經113年5月10日 立法院院會通過進赴二讀所以今天本席身為教育文化委員會的召委就是奉令來做這樣的一個協調那我們是不是先介紹在場的我們先來介紹教育部的官員好了我們就是負責高教的我們的政務次長葉秉成"},{"start":1920.931,"end":1924.273,"text":"還有我們的楊玉慧司長還有我們李松茂處長還有其他我們文化部文化資源司的李長龍專門委員 謝謝還有我們劉美芝專門委員還有衛福部的長期照顧司的王玲玲專門委員 謝謝還有我們衛福部的社會及家庭署的謝若涵科長感謝那我們在場的委員有林倩綺委員是我們今天的提案委員還有我們陳培鈺委員"},{"start":1949.611,"end":1949.751,"text":"提案委員提出意見"},{"start":1961.684,"end":1987.197,"text":"主席還有我們教育部的夥伴還有我們的立委同仁針對這個私立高中等以上學校退場條例的第二十四條條文的這個增修那我這邊做一個說明那個條款大家可以在修正條文這邊看到那我這邊說明第一項是沒有修正的那第二項是依照這個整個條例的第三項現行的這個規定"},{"start":1988.658,"end":2007.555,"text":"那針對法人主管機關合準解散之專案輔導停辦學校那剩餘的財產僅限於捐贈與退場基金那中央機關或公立學校不動產財產那個只能歸屬於不動產所在地之直轄縣市然縣市"},{"start":2009.157,"end":2025.211,"text":"現行的這個規定沒有充分考量整個社會上對教育深感關切或有志辦學者的接辦意願的這個部分這個是我們提出來的第一個徵修的說明然後再接下來是私立學校的新辦是憲法"},{"start":2025.751,"end":2026.572,"text":"：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":2047.347,"end":2061.548,"text":"這個絕大多數的這個學校有相關的這個問題那都不予續辦那也不能改辦然後清算解算跟同意改辦者都只有至目前為止只有一所學校然後將學校停辦"},{"start":2062.429,"end":2078.068,"text":"清算解散法人會造成教育人才及資源之嚴重耗損學生授教權、學習權及教職員工之工作權益也會受到損害這是裡面最弱勢而且受害最大的相關人等"},{"start":2078.729,"end":2105.646,"text":"所以在這個因為具有新辦學意願的資歷潛力之接伴有意願的接伴者我們可以在公私立協力共同新辦教育的理念下改善私立學校辦學之優典範然後不要跟前面的立法概念有所干戈所以我們就因此增訂了兩項這個第二項跟第三項的條文各位可以看左側"},{"start":2106.907,"end":2134.862,"text":"希望能夠在這個部分解決相關的問題所以在這個部分是清理現有的債務及接續辦學等資金的擔保重組董事會增列主管機關委派之公益董事建立財務監理機制這是目前做的一方面可以解決目前私立學校辦學的困境另外一方面我們期待能夠透過這樣開展的方式對私立學校辦學可以有一些新的可能性另外"},{"start":2136.643,"end":2137.284,"text":"林倩綺,其他委員有意見?"},{"start":2158.922,"end":2159.382,"text":"蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":2185.305,"end":2188.047,"text":"國民黨團和民眾黨團要直接讓它進一步二讀跳過我們教育文化委員會的專業討論"},{"start":2203.1,"end":2203.62,"text":"教育文化委員會"},{"start":2231.508,"end":2249.006,"text":"進入專案輔導學校本來就有一個兩年輔導的諮詢期這個過程中他事實上是可能可以改制或者是跟其他學校法人或學校合併也可以改辦本來就有這個空間了而且之前很多團體還覺得這個兩年已經太長因為會到這裡"},{"start":2253.67,"end":2277.452,"text":"亮燈的學校都是財務已經出問題幾乎已經破產了所以你時間越拖越長的話造成師生的人心惶惶所以不管是就程序或者是就實質的內容這個條文都有非常大的問題所以我不能夠理解為什麼要跳過我們委員會的教育文化委員會的專業討論"},{"start":2278.473,"end":2278.593,"text":"委員林倩綺"},{"start":2293.749,"end":2319.001,"text":"重提那如果真的想要一個好的對話的話那是不是依照程序來就進入教育文化委員會裡面那邀請教育部報告之後然後大體討論那如果對退場條例有不同意見的時候我們回歸到教育文化委員會的專業討論按照程序來那也希望朝委那朝委過去在教育文化委員會也都是一起超越黨派那在討論法條"},{"start":2320.242,"end":2324.626,"text":"那是不是不要做這種近乎二讀跳過我們教育委員會的專業討論的一個這樣子的一種處置方式謝謝"},{"start":2339.256,"end":2364.491,"text":"主席各位委員大家好我們今天針對這個私校退場條例第二十四條造極黨團協商那其實我想我還是也是延續這個范雲委員的這個想法就是說其實因為在我們現行的條案現行的條文裡面就有已經有說其實是有一個專輔的一個輔導的機制那現在在這個修正草案增加這個規定就是說在同志同意改制或和並且應該要有一年以上的公開徵求接續辦學的"},{"start":2370.676,"end":2383.627,"text":"主管機關如果同意了專案輔導學校所提的改制或合併申請的話他就不需要公開徵求接續辦學者如果有辦學者那就有可能原本要接的這個學校就會被更換掉"},{"start":2385.114,"end":2387.756,"text":"提出改制或合併的申請"},{"start":2403.388,"end":2406.29,"text":"會增加一年的教師薪資和學校運營費用"},{"start":2422.487,"end":2444.717,"text":"同時我們還是要回到學生跟老師的權益如果我們希望真正的去照顧老師跟學生的話就是延續原本的這個機制上讓他繼續走不然如果以現在要修正的草案的話那就可能會讓這個學生到底要不要安置呢是否還是要轉學因為這個停辦時間無法確定教職員是否要怎麼樣幫他協助轉職"},{"start":2446.778,"end":2446.958,"text":"主席"},{"start":2466.958,"end":2467.379,"text":"同意改制 合併 停辦"},{"start":2487.298,"end":2508.206,"text":"改辦清算完成都要求要公開徵求他人接手也就是林委員您知不知道在您的流程當中會有好幾次的公開徵求來延宕學校退場程序那我必須要嚴正的指出這裡面會有什麼很大的問題因為我們自己協助過的私校來說我就不特別具名"},{"start":2508.826,"end":2517.41,"text":"他們一旦遇到您所說的這個而且您的條文裡面還提到一年以上沒有設上限這個延長的時間這麼長這麼不確定你還甚至提到必要時得延長之也就是說您知不知道在你自己的版本裡頭你既沒有次數也沒有時間的上限等於你要無限延長這個私校退場的這個流程我想要問難道您真的想要讓這些私校僵尸化嗎他們會活不下去又死不掉而活不下去就是剛剛范瑀委員所說的"},{"start":2537.64,"end":2543.465,"text":"你所有退場基金的墊付必須要由教育部這邊來承擔而學校裡面老師跟學生相關的權益你要把它放在哪裡而死不掉的意思就是你讓它無限次數無限時間的延長這個部分我們覺得完全沒有討論不管是因為公聽會或是座談會或者是在教育文化委員會裡面討論完全都沒有看到您想要提出來跟所有委員討論的痕跡所以我這裡必須要嚴正的指出您在相關法條上的說明"},{"start":2564.801,"end":2582.701,"text":"其實真的已經就會造成後續很多學校他們要退場會遇到我剛再說一次私少殭屍化他死不掉他也活不下去這個情況難道真的是您樂見的嗎至於還有更多您的法條裡面您所用的用字遣詞都非常強硬你甚至還提到因"},{"start":2583.502,"end":2589.726,"text":"因什麼?你說要因要求做這些程序事情你基本上也剝奪了學校選擇自身退場的權利跟相關的選擇權也就是說如果學校一旦有機會他們提出申請他們就是想要退場了那您在這個寫因這個字你到底是要兼顧誰的權益在您的法案說明跟你的條文當中我們完全看不出來"},{"start":2603.955,"end":2604.275,"text":"民眾黨團和國民黨團必須嚴正考慮"},{"start":2621.263,"end":2644.621,"text":"好,私校僵尸化這件因為你們是支持這個版本嘛你們有簽名啊你們支持禁負二讀啊所以我要嚴正的指控這件事情你們完全沒有辦法理解私校目前所面臨的困境所以我要再次提這個版本必須要回到專業討論不管是公聽會、座談會或者是回到委員會討論以上,謝謝主席好,謝謝那我們請林一金委員"},{"start":2646.135,"end":2646.415,"text":"國會擴權惡法引起"},{"start":2674.435,"end":2699.06,"text":"民怨反彈為什麽還要用這種所謂的近乎二讀的方式來引起更大的反彈的聲浪那我想這一案之所以會近乎二讀我想也是藍白聯手的結果那民眾黨也有七位來投票支持好我們今天討論的這個私小退場條例第二十四條我覺得不可能無中生有會變出來所以我真的"},{"start":2699.8,"end":2724.988,"text":"嚴重懷疑不曉得是為了什麼樣的目的這項我想也要請提案委員要說清楚那就本席的了解這項提案連私立科大協進會的理事長葛志祥都反對他說允許有意接手辦學的可直接取得學校經營權無意識侵害原私校經營者設法轉型的權利形同對私校再砍一刀"},{"start":2725.968,"end":2749.664,"text":"忽視私校轉型的自主性他覺得十分不合理那葛智祥理事長也懷疑說這樣的提案內容會讓有意投入資金的金主無需跟原校談判那有機會以更小的成本來取得學校經營權無以培養更多的私校徒營那再來我們來看看教職員跟學校學生的權益好了"},{"start":2750.245,"end":2765.186,"text":"這項提案若要求學校停辦前要有一年以上公開徵求接續辦學的期間而且必要時還得以延長我想這樣做只是會導致說停辦的日期遲遲無法確定"},{"start":2766.107,"end":2789.568,"text":"連帶會讓學生也不確定是否要轉到其他的學校讓學校繼續空轉下去會嚴重影響教職員跟學生的權益另外我們也應該考量到債務缺口擴大的問題若在學校停辦前我們還有一年以上要公開徵求接續辦學者的期間無意必須要增加一年以上教師的薪資跟學校的"},{"start":2791.249,"end":2791.429,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":2810.08,"end":2810.46,"text":"先請教育部表達"},{"start":2835.883,"end":2858.527,"text":"謝謝主席我想下一步就這個修正草案的意見我想就是說其實以原來的這個退場條例在這個專府的這兩年其實過去也都有案例就是確實要找到人家接手的他那個都有足夠時間可以接手比如說像高院科技大學就臺鋼就捐給他2.8億就接手所以其實以目前原來的法案的這個設計的時間是足夠的那"},{"start":2861.408,"end":2880.902,"text":"即便以現在的這個退場條例 現在整個退場條例 它專案輔導需要兩年的時間接下來停招到停辦一年的時間 然後兩個月申請解散 再加上一年完成的解散清算一個學校它從專輔到退場其實要花大概四年兩個月的時間 已經非常長 最快 這是最快"},{"start":2881.502,"end":2909.322,"text":"那如果以這個第二項提到的說在改制合併停辦改辦清算完成前每一個階段都要再定一年的公開徵求的時候這其實這個時間可能會再拉到更長甚至可能到七年以上的時間那這裡面的很多的就剛才提到像委員提到裡面很多的這些很多的這些費用都是要退場基金要支付我跟大家報告像我們那個在退場我們在開那個退場基金的管理委員會的時候那個"},{"start":2910.083,"end":2910.363,"text":"立法院總統"},{"start":2937.056,"end":2954.307,"text":"提到說我們現在看很多的學校讓人家接手是一個方式沒有錯但是其實對學校改制也是另外一個非常這個我們認為是能夠找到深入的一個非常好的一個機會可是如果在改制之前也需要再一年的話那原來願意改制跟他合併的學校"},{"start":2954.907,"end":2955.247,"text":"必要時得延長之"},{"start":2969.912,"end":2970.072,"text":"施展委員"},{"start":2985.199,"end":2988.981,"text":"市長我們簡短一下謝謝昭緯還有各位委員我想以目前我們的退場條例的流程各位委員桌上也都有一個其實它訂的是非常的明確那當然會進到專府在這之前學校其實有預警的階段有專府的階段"},{"start":3004.75,"end":3005.131,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3022.011,"end":3026.312,"text":"得到外面的資源挹注其實學校的財務是真的沒有辦法去支撐所以我們目前退場條例的設計其實是在每一個環節都很清楚的去定出時間點那這個目的也是要讓學校的師生可以了解在哪個階段我們會做什麼樣的一個協助讓師生可以比較安心那假如依照我們目前提出來的修正版本真的"},{"start":3051.997,"end":3056.622,"text":"在每一個每一個點都會增加一年以上的這樣的一個時間那真的是會不確定性非常高那以我們目前已經進入要停辦的學校他的校產依照退場條例我們目前也大部分都是我們中央各部會跟地方政府來做承接的"},{"start":3073.841,"end":3077.882,"text":"所以在它停招到停辦的階段我們就已經在做這樣的媒合假如這個修正條文把它安下去之後那這個媒合是沒有辦法去完成的那會造成整個校地它的一個違運或是甚至在那邊荒蕪的現象就會更嚴重所以這個我們"},{"start":3096.707,"end":3099.528,"text":"還沒有其他我們的部門的各單位主管有沒有針對剛剛委員所發表的這個部分提出額外說明"},{"start":3118.494,"end":3119.896,"text":"請問每位委員有特別的看法嗎?"},{"start":3136.336,"end":3138.9,"text":"學校法人主管機關與同意改制 合併"},{"start":3151.536,"end":3169.038,"text":"停辦改辦清算完成前應定一年以上之公開徵求接續辦學期間徵求有意願之接辦者有意願之接辦者亦得向學校主管機關或學校法人主管機關"},{"start":3170.76,"end":3194.714,"text":"提出接辦之申請那第一個部分是資訊公開化那第二項就是第三款前項公開徵求接續辦學期間必要時得以延長之那這個部分是一年是相關的一年是大家的整理期那必要時得不得這個是主管機關的權限"},{"start":3196.135,"end":3214.212,"text":"所以也就是教育部或相關的法人主管機關所以主管機關如果積極作為那就可以定出一個非常明確的時間好那接下來謝謝我們教文處的各位委員我都對大家非常的敬重好謝謝我剛才提出的幾項那"},{"start":3216.474,"end":3219.415,"text":"幾位委員提到許多有問題的學校在財務方面都遇到相當的困難"},{"start":3239.666,"end":3256.205,"text":"如果財務方面遇到相關的困難其實接手要更為小心因為很重要一點是許多學校的老師還有學生的權益在接手的過程當中應該是最重要最主要要考量的所以接手的這個單位在財務的部分要先處理"},{"start":3257.586,"end":3258.147,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：完整會議"},{"start":3275,"end":3299.65,"text":"那第二個 其實條文裡面最重要的就是公開徵求那雖然剛才有委員這邊提到公開徵求時間上會延宕但是我不認為公開徵求時間上就會延宕最主要是你資訊公開化讓所有有興趣的將他徵求的相關計畫在主管單位的監督下能夠得以讓大家都知道就不會產生私相授受的情況"},{"start":3300.851,"end":3318.83,"text":"不要產生私相收受的情況那至於說會增加資金或者是等待的這個時間其實公開徵求那各位我現在其實也有碰到有人跟我投訴是裡面的相關人等啦教育部這邊聽一下雖然可能不是今天你們最主要但是聽一下是說"},{"start":3320.953,"end":3344.754,"text":"有相關的公益董事他們幫你們把東西都處理完了也清算完了結果現在接下來不知道怎麼辦也就是他計算了依照這個規定計算了相關的這個財產還有清算了但是接下來主管機關不接啊他們也不知道怎麼辦啊他們已經做了規定該做的事情可是這一段沒有人處理啊"},{"start":3346.081,"end":3368.744,"text":"所以主管機關你們要這是今天這個已經施行了兩年的這個條例現在所碰到的問題喔現在所碰到的問題可是如果回到前面你公開徵求讓大家能夠處理能夠先做一個整理跟計算的有興趣的單位來接手的話你們也不會碰到這種困境阿你們也不會碰到這種困境阿"},{"start":3370.286,"end":3370.386,"text":"公開徵求"},{"start":3396.372,"end":3405.628,"text":"我現在講的是你們剛才講的啦你說這個學校都會變成殭屍化我們不需要了解他雖然在很危急的狀況他還沒有死欸"},{"start":3407.162,"end":3435.133,"text":"他還想求生欸他還沒有死欸你說他也有可能活也有可能走掉但是如果他主動意願不想死我們當然努力的要救他假如他真的必須要走掉了那他就會自動他就會走掉了嘛我們不能說他想要繼續活下去也有人願意救他結果我們就說你先死吧我們不能這個樣子啊而且是我們公家部門還有"},{"start":3437.148,"end":3438.049,"text":"我先就以上 剛才幾位委員這邊所講的"},{"start":3464.345,"end":3464.565,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":3490.512,"end":3490.672,"text":"村城委員"},{"start":3513.977,"end":3537.187,"text":"我想我們俏文是一個應該最沒有政黨意識的地方那我們也是台灣民眾黨沒有什麼藍綠又合守的問題那我覺得首先要問我要問教育部大家覺得我們目前已經實施了這個退場條例有沒有遇到問題有沒有問題"},{"start":3539.483,"end":3562.039,"text":"當然大家都覺得有問題當然大家都覺得有問題問題如何來改善因為目前的處理方式雖然前面有兩年的時間但是幾乎現在在這個辦法裡面只有一所學校"},{"start":3563.314,"end":3588.787,"text":"能夠完成這樣子的改辦只有一所學校,其他的全部停辦這一個最重要的是影響到學生、教師還有很多學校的資產就充公我覺得這一個程序是有問題"},{"start":3591.533,"end":3608.279,"text":"那等一下請然後再來的話要問教育部如果照這個辦法預估下來還有幾所學校要面臨在這個辦法底下要關門關閉然後私生聽說有40所學校"},{"start":3611.262,"end":3626.522,"text":"等待退場然後呢回天發述然後沒有別的辦法目前看起來就是兩年那當然你會問那兩年的時間其實兩年時間的確不短那兩年時間不短你還不能 但問題這裡喔"},{"start":3628.879,"end":3650.249,"text":"這裡在主導這兩年的就是學校的財團法人學校的財團法人他不放手所以他沒有積極的兩年時間是不短我並不是說這兩年時間還不夠而是問題是主導權在這一個學校法人的手上"},{"start":3651.249,"end":3673.004,"text":"如果他們沒有去做這種積極的處理所以導致那為什麼現在這個修法當中我們的目的是希望能夠保障學校老師學生的權益所以把權力最後這兩年的權力給你財團法人你財團法人"},{"start":3674.81,"end":3684.519,"text":"不積極處理問題之後 難道就馬上進入清算嗎是不是把權力移轉 其實是移轉到主管機關"},{"start":3687.244,"end":3711.795,"text":"轉移到主管機關的決定權那再給主管機關一點時間但是這個時間到底要多長比較適合我覺得當然要教育部來表示意見這邊之間我覺得這裡是個有彈性那我也請教育部回答第一個就是退場條例實施這段期間來有沒有問題"},{"start":3712.995,"end":3736.848,"text":"那能解決現在等待的有哪些學校要等待的關門你還有沒有別的方法你前面講了兩年顯然現實的結果是這樣子嘛這四所學校就等著排隊嘛只要被盯上的只要被教育部盯上的大概限制了很多然後他也沒有給他幾乎就是判死刑啦目前的方法是這樣子"},{"start":3738.177,"end":3758.486,"text":"那你會講說那邊是貼有什麼所以在台灣民眾黨的立場當中只要能夠解決這問題教育部你能夠提出來我們是願意接受的等一下有關委員的意見我們等教育部一併來做一個回答我們現在來看第二輪的接下來是范雲委員"},{"start":3760.41,"end":3780.706,"text":"剛剛民眾黨那個五委員一直說沒有藍白聯手請那個五委員看一下我們辦公室找出來的投票記錄這裡面有您的名字就是12345677位民眾黨委員都一起投所以跳過審查跳過我們教育文化委員會的就是說您可能忘記了那天可能沒有不記得是投什麼"},{"start":3781.286,"end":3798.451,"text":"所以為什麼今天我們是直接跳到這個協商沒有委員會審查就是你們投的這個票那到底是有什麼剛剛我們好幾位委員講了有什麼公益性跟急迫性為什麼不在我們專業的教育文化委員會裡面"},{"start":3799.971,"end":3812.096,"text":"依照程序逐條審查而且之前還應該要有大體討論教育部應該都要有詢答您今天想問的問題我們在教育文化委員會裡面不是可以讓教育部有更充分的時間報告然後每個委員都能夠詢答"},{"start":3815.638,"end":3830.535,"text":"之後我們再來討論而且有其他相關的條文是不是能夠一起並案討論所以剛剛兩位委員還是沒有回答為什麼要跳過我們教育文化委員會的專業的審查雖然您剛講沒有您忘記了我把這個投票記錄有帶過來看一下"},{"start":3832.677,"end":3855.604,"text":"那我想剛剛兩位就是說尤其是這個林委員您要提案是不是可以先做研究那我跟Joybo要的資料如果你這個法通過之後所謂的就是尚未完成清算的可能會起死回生的有八個學校高美醫護、河村技術、中州科大提醒大家中州科大的負責人就是"},{"start":3856.164,"end":3882.733,"text":"有那個就是把外國國際學生做奴隸的部分已經被判刑確定了臺灣首府大學、大同技術學院、東方設計大學、環球科技大學、明道大學那剛剛林委員講起來好像就是針對某些大學的個案你要修法您剛剛講有學校沒有承接機關在我跟教育部要的資料裡面只有兩所學校不知道是哪一所學校的誰來拜託你兩所學校沒有承接機關一個是環球科大"},{"start":3884.654,"end":3900.402,"text":"明道大學 環球科大 依照教育部的資料目前有榆林縣政府經濟部都表達願意承接他們必須要提交規劃構想書後提報下一次行政院退場校地研商會議確認明道大學目前有衛福部提交規劃構想書"},{"start":3901.903,"end":3918.389,"text":"那將提報下一次行政院退場校地研商會議確認那不知道是環球科大還是明道大學你覺得他們需要用這個法條來幫他解決困境那我們剛要講的原本專輔之後我們現在的法條就有兩年輔導諮詢的期間"},{"start":3920.39,"end":3934.526,"text":"他本來就可以依照規定財團就可以來討論那記得林姬委員跟我我們當時還很多的意見教師團體跟學生團體覺得兩年都太長所以當時已經是一個妥協的結果了"},{"start":3935.387,"end":3963.549,"text":"所以就是更不用講沒有進入專府的財務沒有那麼大問題的依照私效法教育部的監管能力是更弱的當時我還想補下那個更早的逃生門所以那些有意願進組的還沒有再出問題進專府的時候依照私效法目前是更寬鬆的那專府還有兩年所以我不知道你剛剛講的為什麼不能同意我們的委員說僵尸化這個部分那你到底是站在誰的立場上"},{"start":3965.05,"end":3991.342,"text":"是環球科大還是明道大學覺得這個法修過去能夠讓他們校地不要歸公歸國有 謝謝接下來是陳佩玉委員然後過來是林益菁委員好 謝謝主席然後我們再等請教育部再做一個回應是 謝謝主席我手上這個是三讀版通過的之前所謂范雲委員跟林益菁委員他們修的這個私校退場條例的簡易架構版我想要跟倩琴委員還有春雲委員說明"},{"start":3992.282,"end":4011.822,"text":"你們剛剛說時間不夠這件事情我們就想要請你們再度回應到底目前時間不夠的問題而且剛剛川城委員您也說您認為教育部是不是要滾動檢討的機制在之前林倩綺委員您跟陳建仁院長質詢的時候他也提到確實有需要滾動檢討但是確定不能做的事情是私相授受"},{"start":4012.222,"end":4035.093,"text":"所以我們現在真的非常擔心在你們的版本裡頭會不會有私商售售的問題為什麼我們這麼說在您的版本裡面你不斷不斷不斷延長這件事情到底照顧的是誰的權益如果我是家長我的小孩就讀其中剛剛發言委員說的兩所學校或是在八所學校裡面其中一所學校如果你們給了我一個錯誤的期待以為這個學校會一直延長下去但是整個辦學的狀況我來跟您報告"},{"start":4037.114,"end":4051.199,"text":"什麼時候會被列入獄警學校就是我等一下念的狀況會讓家長跟孩子非常的不放心到底我在這個學校還要不要待下去還是我應該要接受教育部給我的輔導轉學這件事情呢一財務惡化施肢質量不符法規學生權益減和不通過合格教師未達50%而這一切才會列入獄警學校您剛剛一再的指控相關資訊是沒有公開的我想要問你到底是哪一段資訊沒有公開"},{"start":4064.423,"end":4068.405,"text":"接下來預警學校才會走到專輔學校而專輔學校有哪些呢一財務惡化嚴重影響營運二失職的質量不符法規改善未果三學生權益減和不通過改善未果四合格教師未達50%改善未果接下來積欠教師薪資遭罰三年內列為預警學校兩次"},{"start":4087.117,"end":4100.252,"text":"違反私校法嚴重影響師生權益才會列入專輔學校才會往下走兩年再往下往下加的流程請問如果您是家長你看到你的孩子在這樣的地方讀書你真的會願意一再一再延長相關的期限對學生真的是確保學生的權益嗎"},{"start":4105.157,"end":4128.382,"text":"接下來你剛剛用了一個非常惡劣的自由不需要惡劣用國家暴力來形容土地回歸主管機關或是教育部作為公共使用這件事情請您不要忘記所有私立學校在辦學的期間他們有非常多的補助是從國家的資源撥補到私立學校私立學校從來都不是一毛不拿沒有拿國家的錢所以它從來都不是國家暴力國家雖然鼓勵私人興選"},{"start":4129.162,"end":4156.904,"text":"但是國家也兼顧了公立學校跟私立學校學生的就學權益還有老師相關保障所以一旦退場之後他必須所有的相關土地或者是校舍建築或者是學生相關老師的權益其實在現行的法令當中都有完善的規範可是確實我們必須要承認所有私校退場的樣態都非常的不一樣來自於董事會的經營來自於私資的問題甚至來自於那個地區的社區文化社區背景的問題都有非常不同"},{"start":4157.885,"end":4176.084,"text":"所以如果你們真的認為有必要檢討那是不是回到委員會好好討論甚至整個私校退場條例裡面應該也不會只有這條需要討論我不知道在你們的版本裡面為什麼你們只有看到這一條也就是我們認為它會造成僵尸化甚至造成禿鷹化的現象喔謝謝好 林一吉委員"},{"start":4178.578,"end":4181.82,"text":"教育公共化 私下經營的時候國家是挹注非常多的經費在私校上 而且私人興學的過程中是不需要繳稅的"},{"start":4198.85,"end":4214.084,"text":"所以我想在一個私人辦選的過程中其實他接受到那麼多外界的資源特別是來自國家的資源所以到他沒有辦法經營的時候他必須要退場的時候那土地收歸國有"},{"start":4215.265,"end":4215.565,"text":"退場條例流程"},{"start":4237.678,"end":4243.685,"text":"預警是不公開的,也是要保護學校,讓學校可以做改善在預警,只要你有改善,它就會解除預警學校的名,它就可以繼續正常營運可是你一旦預警期間沒有改善之後,就會進入專輔"},{"start":4260.862,"end":4262.403,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":4287.137,"end":4287.297,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":4309.983,"end":4325.615,"text":"那這種好像是無限輪迴的過程我覺得這是嚴重損害學生跟教職人的權益因為你學校已經經營不下去根本就沒錢經營下去了你還在那邊滾蛋那剛剛就裴委員說的那些孩子"},{"start":4326.175,"end":4338.562,"text":"怎麼辦?我的孩子念這個學校我怎麼辦?你那時候老師也無心留因為可能學校也付不出老師的薪水了那孩子在裡面那這個學校你還要讓他一年以上還可以一直延長所以我覺得您這樣的一個提案或許你有受到某些這個財團的請託然後你覺得可以替他這樣子的說話可是我覺得您還是要想到這個公益性的問題"},{"start":4355.871,"end":4356.691,"text":"請教育部針對剛剛委員的意見做一個統一的回覆"},{"start":4378.177,"end":4378.677,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4399.685,"end":4400.105,"text":"主席"},{"start":4420.175,"end":4434.61,"text":"這個學校沒有人願意接其實也不是因為退場條例的關係事實上整個大環境從以前一年新生額40萬人到現在13萬8千人 三分之一人其實很多的這些不管是財團或是這些對他們來講"},{"start":4437.193,"end":4437.253,"text":"委員林倩綺"},{"start":4456.292,"end":4470.657,"text":"整個這個少子化的趨勢下本來他就是很難找到人接手這是他比較辛苦的地方那至於剛剛委員提到說這整個過去實務上有沒有遇到一些什麼問題或是一些相關性我可能再請這個也請司長再補充一下"},{"start":4471.237,"end":4471.437,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4489.407,"end":4489.528,"text":"委員林倩綺"},{"start":4504.366,"end":4524.197,"text":"老師是比較難接受這個我們不會言的就老師來講那但是因為會走到專訪我們也都看到很多學校老師欠信已經欠了一年多了然後老師幾乎每個禮拜到部裡面到底法院要求董事會要出來董事會就是無力的來做經常那因為條例的一個通過然後讓我們的時間點很明確"},{"start":4529.58,"end":4544.273,"text":"停招我們公益董事進去退場基金進去老師的薪水就開始開始可以來支領那後面的憂離憂退我們基金也先墊資讓老師至少他的生活是可以有"},{"start":4544.733,"end":4545.974,"text":"有經濟資源的那當然我們在這個兩年的專訪期間我們也透過我們一個輔導給老師一些的研習讓他有機會在在第二個第二春的這樣的概念"},{"start":4560.23,"end":4560.47,"text":"委員林倩綺"},{"start":4579.528,"end":4588.517,"text":"但回到少子化每個學校的教資的缺額就是真的非常的少所以在這一方面的協助轉弦真的是比較難那假如老師有意願到企業其實我們都有非常多的這樣的職缺來提供給老師做選擇"},{"start":4599.608,"end":4600.428,"text":"委員提出進步二度本來就是符合議事規範"},{"start":4620.734,"end":4620.894,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":4643.647,"end":4644.047,"text":"主席蔣麗芸"}]}},{"id":"16029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16029","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a60929a8150938836f8cad9f551ce5fa921f627684c85f64cd7beca4e55c5cd431f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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有需求的話我們用滾動式的方式會繼續增加這方面的補助"},{"start":2185.269,"end":2212.199,"text":"目前為止行人安全的永續提升計畫大概就是交通部跟內政部尤其是我們的國土管理署為主所以我們要到地方政府來做會刊包括在校園的安全或是行人的安全或者是行人道上面的鋪面改善屬於硬體設備改善的部分都是由國土管理署跟我們台中市政府一起來合作來改善我們很希望在短期之內就達成這樣的目標像目前行政院已經核定全台灣大概有799處"},{"start":2213.92,"end":2219.307,"text":"我想台中市的這個比例算相當的高尤其是六都裡面所以我們來繼續加油"},{"start":2220.663,"end":2249.381,"text":"好部長謝謝也謝謝拜訪院長因為我想台中現在對第一個當然推動大宗運輸這在交通業務質詢的時候會來拜託也會來這個來要求但是這個交通大宗運輸做完之後大家最重要的就是所謂最後一里路怎麼走完怎麼從這個大宗運輸的節點走到他家裡面這個就需要很完善的這個道路安全行人安全系統當然台灣在這件事情上面這幾年開始關注那其他先進國家他做這件事情做了很多年那我們現在開始做"},{"start":2249.781,"end":2252.664,"text":"報告委員．剛剛部長所說的全國依照是路口799處．我已經要求他3個月內要完成半數"},{"start":2268.404,"end":2269.264,"text":"臨時提供幾個客觀數字"},{"start":2286.127,"end":2301.952,"text":"我想這個全國六都包含新竹縣市的這個房價所得比我想逐年當然每年這個數字那如果我們從2023年Q4往前回推10年左右其實全國的房價所得比的這個比例上漲了非常非常多我想這也是一個客觀的事實"},{"start":2303.188,"end":2323.041,"text":"那當然這個政府一直說要打房但我們也知道說政府做很多行動來打房但是我們可以看到真的房價越打越高啊那房價越打越高我們也看到說從這個當初的房地合一稅上路之後我們包含政府大家都期待說房價會因為房地合一稅上路之後能夠有明顯的下降但是"},{"start":2324.962,"end":2348.336,"text":"應該說不只下降,至少持平嘛,但是不只沒有持平啊,你看這個數字它的曲線圖它是快速的在成長。那其實我認為大家推動相關的政策本意利益都是良善的,但是我想今天為什麼打房會越打越高,我想提供觀點給院長跟部長來思考啊,就是到底有沒有需要去推動政策來打房。"},{"start":2349.036,"end":2367.15,"text":"因為你打房我想最核心的問題是說你今天是在跟資本市場對坐當然理論上來講我們希望房子不應該是資本市場的玩具工具這是理論上但實際上台灣現狀社會裡面來講它的這個房價為什麼越打越高就是因為它我覺得變成某種程度上變成這個資本市場"},{"start":2368.05,"end":2372.653,"text":"在討論之前我想問一下部長跟院長除了打房之外除了去打壓房價之外還有什麼樣的政策角度可以解決房價問題你們覺得"},{"start":2398.221,"end":2399.322,"text":"可以,兩位都可以回答。"},{"start":2419.761,"end":2420.121,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日"},{"start":2444.682,"end":2445.322,"text":"臨時提案委員：完整會議臨時提案委員：完整會議"},{"start":2473.095,"end":2474.696,"text":"跟委員報告房價的高高低低很多因素"},{"start":2503.28,"end":2528.892,"text":"建築土地成本還有就是群聚形成科技園區高科技工業區等等他都有可能另外就是都會區的形成像台中都會區一形成之後就往都會區來集中沒錯我也很認為打是打不法我們打擊犯罪打擊毒品才叫打防他本身沒有罪所以我們應該證明此後我們就是打草防有草防的行為我們絕對打"},{"start":2530.413,"end":2548.926,"text":"但是房屋它的價值一方面是社會市場的成本一方面政府要用公共的政策來把它平抑下去而不是打房是打炒房好謝謝院長既然談到公共政策我要提出說除了打房之外因為房價現在就還是這個價格現階段所以政府的"},{"start":2549.426,"end":2550.907,"text":"社會住宅數字來自於參考日本的數字,所以5%。"},{"start":2572.654,"end":2589.224,"text":"．1、2、3、4、5、6、7、8、9、10、11、12、12、13、14、15、16、17、18、19、20、21、22、23、24、25、26、27、28、29、30、31、32、33、34、35、36、36、37、39、40、40、41、42、43、44、45、45、46、46、47、49、49、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50、50"},{"start":2589.364,"end":2613.191,"text":"在這個全國社會主體新辦的進度的這個狀況來講我今年初的時候那時候前院長在的時候我也問過這問題那只是唯一的跟動的標準是那時候是1月底那現在是5月31的這個數字到目前為止全國這實際這個中央來興建的社宅可以入住的3萬多戶我想這個比例跟本來預計的要達到這個12萬戶還是一定程度的這個差距那這個從"},{"start":2614.911,"end":2624.377,"text":"這個後來的2025年的2032年的社會住宅政策裡面我們放眼到這個現階段現在2024的過去的事情當然我們就檢討完但是我們現在放眼2025到2032目標要達到100萬戶100萬戶裡面有25萬戶那時候說要直接興建25萬戶要包租代管也50萬戶的租金補貼原先的政策是不是長這樣子"},{"start":2640.871,"end":2663.091,"text":"2025到2032我們的百萬租屋這個社會住宅政策確實是朝著三個方向就是直接興建社會住宅然後包租貸款還有租金補貼其中租金補貼的部分已經遠遠超過原來預期的目標這個我等一下會提到的確我覺得你這個租金補貼的目標放的有點太低了一點現在達到了好那我要提出說今年今天講這100萬戶的裡面25現在已經改了因為現在這個我想新總統上來之後呢"},{"start":2666.974,"end":2691.922,"text":"把這個本來的百萬社宅目標改成了這個八年這個百萬租屋之家庭的支持計畫那我要跟部長也跟院長來提醒一件事情租屋是什麼意思其實一樣就會回到資本市場的問題今天你補貼民眾去租屋他的確解決他短期的問題啊但他這個租屋是他的房子去從哪裡來他去哪裡租他不是就是要跟人家買的房子租嗎"},{"start":2692.793,"end":2710.568,"text":"那你同時又推動了新清安政策,同時又推動了各項政策,那如果我是個有點資本的人,我當然去買房子,我繼續租給這些還買不起房子的人,因為反正他會拿政府的租屋補貼來補貼我房子的房貸,那我當然可以有失誤可能繼續買房啊。"},{"start":2710.928,"end":2726.013,"text":"所以我今天要講的是說如果今天真的政府推動是百萬社宅是由政府來興建或者民間投資興建我當然支持但是如果用成豬補貼的話我想這跟社宅的定義會有一定程度的落差院長你怎麼看"},{"start":2727.288,"end":2745.946,"text":"我來回應好不好。我想黃委員的這個觀察非常的正確。但是我們在過去一段時間以來是要解決剛剛進入我們的那個就業市場的年輕人。我們期待他租金補貼過了一段時間以後他可能家戶的這個經濟所的增加了就有可能去外面買一般的房子。"},{"start":2746.246,"end":2746.606,"text":"新建社會住宅"},{"start":2767.188,"end":2795.937,"text":"那如果直接興建社會住宅對於企業要未來要禁用新人或者是留住這些人的話其實幫助會非常大那同時呢未來我們興建社會住宅會朝著所謂的小造陣也就是說呢社會住宅的興建不要把它放在什麼山邊或是水邊非常偏僻的地方它是有個很好的一個生活的這個機能在所以朝著這個小造陣來發展的話呢興建社會住宅那它的社會功能性對於幫忙年輕族群進入社會呢幫助就會非常大"},{"start":2796.337,"end":2813.335,"text":"所以我們未來會多元跟多管齊下來來鼓勵企業界甚至內政部以外的其他部會比如說國防部也可以或是其他的單位一起來興建這個社會住宅部長謝謝我聽到了這個關鍵就其實過去在之前的這個質詢我也提過相關的概念就是說"},{"start":2814.636,"end":2836.488,"text":"國現在的社會住宅基本上全都是由政府來興建,就包含說住住中心也好,各地方政府也好,都是由政府出資出土地來興建,但是明明住宅法裡面就有相關的這個鼓勵民間興辦,包含提供到底提供什麼獎勵,當然細節我覺得不可以跟大家一起來思考,但是我覺得的確你應該把這個壓力轉嫁出去給資本市場,就大家賺了這麼多錢,"},{"start":2837.669,"end":2863.838,"text":"大家到底要怎麼樣回饋給社會我想如果能夠讓民間鼓勵民間新辦那讓多數的國民還有權利能夠住得起房子這個住他不一定是買啊他可以長期的租租的情勢嘛那再透過政府的政策他有機會在年輕的時候在還沒有這個穩定財政的時候他能夠有地方能去處所以如果政府的這個這個新辦社出來使用的新辦社出來能夠鼓勵民間新辦是未來"},{"start":2865.178,"end":2888.707,"text":"這個下一個階段社會住宅的新建的這個政策目標嗎?是,我想委員觀察得非常正確在住宅法第19條裡面確實有提到民間可以自行運用土地像譬如說新北市政府已經用BOT的方式在中和跟三重處理所謂的青年社會住宅所以未來台中市政府如果要朝著這方面來發展或是發揮的話我想我們站在內政部的立場一定會來鼓勵跟多多支持"},{"start":2890.215,"end":2918.553,"text":"謝謝委員的指教剛剛委員那個表格當中我們都看得出來我們在量還是不夠的量還提升但短期之內興建是一個方式但是用比較多的漁屋釋放出來讓他出租也是一個方式但是跟民間合作這個就是委員所提到我們未來要朝這個方向也需要一起來努力讓民間能夠來投入跟政府公司部門共同來合力我們才有辦法在一定的時間把量增加出來"},{"start":2919.161,"end":2938.177,"text":"好,謝謝院長、謝謝部長。我想這個居住正義的問題就有提到,除了打之外,更重要的是讓人民有地方住。這才是這個政策最重要的核心,好不好?好,謝謝黃委員。謝謝院長。下一位請黃仁委員質詢。"},{"start":2954.096,"end":2963.723,"text":"有請我們左院長還有內政部長及園民會。來請左院長、內政部長、園民會主委請備詢。黃委員好。委員好。委員好。院長好。"},{"start":2980.871,"end":2999.639,"text":"在本席第一次跟你對話非常的榮幸當然這個也是跟全國的族人來跟你對話那我們就考究一下我們的歷史的脈絡在民進黨至今的"},{"start":3002.619,"end":3025.684,"text":"執政已經算第三次。臺灣原住民主的政民權、土地權、自治權三大訴求只完成不到二分之一。縱然民進黨在第一次取得政權後陳水扁總統及中華民國總統之尊以臺灣原住民簽訂"},{"start":3027.304,"end":3039.091,"text":"原住民主與臺灣政府新夥伴關係及原住民與臺灣政府新的夥伴關係再肯定協定及原住民主與臺灣這個"},{"start":3042.557,"end":3065.76,"text":"政府蔡英文執政之後以中華民國總統名義代表政府向原住民道歉並設置總統府原住民歷史正義與轉型正義委員會所以我念這一段就是要告訴給院長在過去我們很肯定的是陳水扁總統"},{"start":3067.093,"end":3084.831,"text":"到我們這個蔡英文總統針對我們的歷史正義來針對我們的原住民的定義已經釋出了一個善意跟肯定但後續的執行的這樣的一個"},{"start":3086.901,"end":3111.449,"text":"動作是非常緩慢所以我們原住民的證明權或是原住民的正義權或什麼土地權之類現在還不到二分之一所以今天我講這個就是我們在臺灣我必須要再肯定的是臺灣真正的臺灣的主人就是原住民"},{"start":3112.284,"end":3140.469,"text":"我們過去我們漢民主400年來牽涉到臺灣來但是有沒有尊重到我們真正臺灣的歷史跟原住民的定名是因為我們不斷的在這個時空背景在每一段的世紀裡面不斷的去爭取訴求歷史真相包含歷史還原給原住民的一個尊重這就是我們在過去到現在"},{"start":3141.429,"end":3142.01,"text":"臨時提案時間。（6月25日"},{"start":3154.855,"end":3172.001,"text":"應該要給予我們肯定跟回歸歷史的真正的意義就在這裡那所以剛剛黃建豪一直談到的是社會主宰待會我要跟院長要談到社會主宰跟內政部我必須要請教"},{"start":3172.881,"end":3197.185,"text":"內政部你們的回應跟社會住宅在全國裡面有沒有真正建蓋過原住民的專屬社會住宅今天我們不要被配給我們不要配給到配受原住民的社會住宅原因在哪裡第一我們有原住民的所謂的群組群組的文化"},{"start":3198.069,"end":3218.757,"text":"所以群組的文化是群聚在一起的文化,因為文化不同,如果被受到在所建蓋的社會住宅裡面,它就會被排擠,因為我們的文化不同,我們唱個唱歌,我們唱個我們16組的文化裡面,我們跳個舞,"},{"start":3221.365,"end":3244.94,"text":"然後各族群裡面去發揚它的文化歷史的時候,隔壁的因為它是漢民族,不了解我們的文化,我們總是被排擠。 在尊嚴上孩子在受教育的時候,在尊嚴上在自尊上都會受損。 我們去思考一下從這個角度,如果我們要培育我們的孩子,我們希望我們的孩子要得到什麼?"},{"start":3244.94,"end":3245.981,"text":"更好的教育。"},{"start":3246.661,"end":3247.342,"text":"謝謝委員我始終認為啊"},{"start":3265.103,"end":3292.836,"text":"原住民族曾經是臺灣這塊土地上唯一的主人你講得好就歷史上來看曾經是這塊土地上唯一的主人經過這麼多年來現在都是你我共同的家園我們共同讓他進步共同學習彼此的長處共同來彌補過去在這塊土地上造成的所有的不公平現在用種種的公共的政策我們來做更多的協助但是"},{"start":3293.851,"end":3295.772,"text":"好 院長你剛剛前面講的我非常認同你對原住民的歷史的肯定"},{"start":3322.982,"end":3337.22,"text":"但從蔡英文公告全世界包含全國公開的道歉你依你的現在的行政院院長的高度你也認為有沒有道歉這個這個含義"},{"start":3339.235,"end":3353.554,"text":"你願不願意在這個地方跟全國的國人的原住民道歉。蔡前總統以總統的身份在向原住民族表示那就是一種國家基本的態度跟政策。"},{"start":3354.175,"end":3354.415,"text":"好,希望能夠併進"},{"start":3382.418,"end":3407.074,"text":"因為原住民已經沒有時間再來一直訴求著就是說希望能改變我們的生活居住權包含土地土地的保障法希望是一直在陳述這樣的理由但是依你們的高度跟過去裡面對原住民的認同跟肯定跟懷疑歷史的時候也應該要並進進步推動我們"},{"start":3412.284,"end":3436.045,"text":"不分族群的生活條件包含他的教育環境跟居住環境應該要提升。 這就是我們一直訴求的地方。社會主宰今天我看到你的對原住民的政策裡面當然這個也包含了內政部長你們提供給行政院長的一個報告那這邊就提到這個"},{"start":3439.127,"end":3464.43,"text":"看到你的在第13頁的部分雖然提到保障原住民主權利等內容且只有短短的六行的文字的帶過讓人看不出政府對原住民族人的重視現在針對這個院長的口頭報告內容以下有三點就叫我們的院長第一"},{"start":3465.871,"end":3488.804,"text":"2016 2016年蔡英文上任之後向原住民道歉請問院長你是否針對原住民土地及居住正義的問題在這個地方利用這個機會向原住民處人的道歉。第二在行政院院長施政報告中卻沒有談到如何落實原住民的居住正義可能內政部沒有給你報告這些項目。原因"},{"start":3489.844,"end":3496.889,"text":"我們把內容基礎正義的這個項目告訴給大家原住民現在面臨的問題在哪裡"},{"start":3498.755,"end":3521.663,"text":"在原住民的住宅法裡面第二條第三項目的事業主管機關原民會應視原住民主教育及語言文化等傳承文這個發展還有會統主管機關就是內政部新辦或獎勵民間新辦專攻原住民成豬或社會住宅第二原住民主家庭自有住宅力"},{"start":3523.183,"end":3549.875,"text":"百分之七十六點六六,相對乃低於我國全體家庭的百分之九十點二二。第三,原鄉地區原住民自有住宅率約百分之九十,但都會區原住民自有住宅率僅百分之五十五左右,較一般家庭房屋自有率差距相當於百分之三十一到三十四。"},{"start":3552.54,"end":3579.627,"text":"就是在106年臺灣原住民主經濟狀況調查報告中差跡高達42%雖然以拉近差跡但整體來講房租及房貸乃是原住民主義最大的經濟負擔來源所以今天我們要講的你們過去推動的這個社會主宰是非常很多人在各縣市裡面我曾經在台中市擔任過世界的議員"},{"start":3583.534,"end":3608.576,"text":"當時對於產業經濟跟房地的衝擊如果你建蓋在它的產值最高的公高限值的土地裡面建蓋社會住宅很多人反對很多人反對因為什麼衝擊它的價格跟公高限值所以他們認為社會住宅就是一般百姓給百姓住的社會住宅可是到最後呢最後"},{"start":3609.44,"end":3626.422,"text":"人人都要社會住宅,不管他在哪一個黃色袋裡面金黃袋裡面,他的價格土地的價格在貴的地方蓋社會住宅沒有人反對,為什麼?"},{"start":3628.803,"end":3657.417,"text":"社會住宅所建構的環境也好,它周邊裡面的整個硬體設備都好,沒有影響它地方的土地產業的價格的提高。所以這就是我們目前全國需求社會住宅的要點、意義在這裡。但原住民的專屬社會住宅在哪裡?沒有。反觀我們在台中裡面有兩個地方,"},{"start":3659.265,"end":3683.617,"text":"兩個地方第一叫志強新村的原地重建第二是花東新村的原地重建在臺中一個霧峰一個太平當時很多人懷疑那個地方建蓋之後會怎麼樣建蓋之後是一個變成一個特色從胡志強到林佳龍到盧秀燕當時他們認為那個地方原地重建會衝擊到"},{"start":3684.773,"end":3689.376,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":3708.772,"end":3736.113,"text":"然後遍地在各縣市裡面建蓋原住民的專屬社會住宅融合16屬裡面能夠有自主的生活文化的傳承包含他的這些教育都在裡面而且統一的照顧這就是我們社會要不要得正的行為以上部長我想請教一下有沒有有沒有機會"},{"start":3738.936,"end":3760.456,"text":"來做一個特別預算,建蓋原住民的社會住宅。謝謝黃委員的指教。委員有提到,所謂的原住民的居住正義有兩種,一個就是在山上的。在山上原鄉部落的話,其實按照我們的國土計畫法,所謂的一生一次,或者按照國土功能,限地就可以完全有住宅使用。所以您剛剛提到的90%應該是根據國土計畫法推動的。"},{"start":3764.94,"end":3778.87,"text":"現在我不要講這些,我現在要講的有沒有必要用特別預算而且特別專案建蓋原住民的專屬社會住宅不要被配給有沒有必要"},{"start":3779.11,"end":3807.422,"text":"我先跟我委員回應一下第一個我們一定會來協助那這個呢您在推動的臺中市啊這個所謂的都會原住民裡面的專用社會住宅是臺中市政府在推動的那按照我們住宅法上面的目的事業主管機關也是我們在中央的原民會可以幫忙來推動沒關係我下次您聽我講完這樣你先提出你的細節的報告給我好不好還有原民會我今天我是饒過你一次因為你現在什麼都不懂希望你下次我在問你的時候"},{"start":3808.982,"end":3829.249,"text":"報告委員在住宅法裡面規定目的事業主管機關必須依照這個原住民族的語言文化等等去興建社會住宅。這是原民會的權證。我現在講原住民的身分法我們評估組的回歸來暫停一下我的時間然後播放一下影片這個是民國111年的7月26日"},{"start":3832.492,"end":3850.49,"text":"憲法法庭這個月28日即將開庭,針對希拉雅族證明與納入平地原住民的案子進行釋憲,就有部分的原住民團體跟議員出面反對。憲法法庭這個月28日即將開庭,針對希拉雅族證明與納入平地原住民的案子進行釋憲,就有部分的原住民團體跟議員出面反對。憲法法庭這個月28日即將開庭,針對希拉雅族證明與納入平地原住民的案子進行釋憲,就有部分的原住民團體跟議員出面反對。憲法法庭這個月28日即將開庭,針對希拉雅族證明與納入"},{"start":3853.152,"end":3880.67,"text":"大量的童話、文化的融合在外觀上已經跟漢族群沒有任何差異我們認為他們在法律上欠缺保障的標的他們可以循這個正常的管道成立我們相關的這個事務單位這個平埔族的族群委員會那我想這個也不會排擠到現行的54萬原住民的所有的相關的權益未來相關制定的福利政策應該"},{"start":3882.318,"end":3891.554,"text":"要成民主的程序來進行才對而不是馬上就弄到憲法庭裡面有13個法官"},{"start":3892.405,"end":3914.876,"text":"來裁決一群來自臺南的希臘族人真的無法取得平地原住民身份提出行政訴訟跟議審認為與民法有違憲之餘申請釋憲但就怕資源已經夠少的平地原住民在加入平埔族群會稀釋資源造成不公原住民團體呼籲大法官應該先請聽法定16族原住民的聲音登記小孩子或是登記我的媳婦或是登記我的"},{"start":3915.916,"end":3916.517,"text":"反對他們進入,但是有謊話的話"},{"start":3934.394,"end":3934.494,"text":"我希望這個委員組"},{"start":3966.887,"end":3967.869,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員好,謝謝院長下一位我們請盧憲一委員質詢"},{"start":3998.956,"end":4023.412,"text":"主席有請院長跟原民會主委來請院長還有原民會主委備詢主委好院長好主委好莫拉克到現在即將邁入第15年"},{"start":4024.827,"end":4052.116,"text":"所以我們今天大概就是在針對我們莫拉克風災後的一些問題來質詢我們的新任的行政院長。就莫拉克來說,院長你的印象是什麼?就是一場吐露起來的非常大的颱風造成……我希望你是說它造成了680億人死亡。它造成了62億美金的損失。我希望這兩點牢牢記得。"},{"start":4054.537,"end":4076.529,"text":"摩拉克的意思是什麼意思?語意上面?摩拉克這三個字的意思?摩拉克這三個字是泰國化的綠寶石。那因為它造成這麼大的損害以後,它被永久除名,也就是說以後再沒有颱風會以摩拉克來命名。"},{"start":4077.759,"end":4099.226,"text":"我們就簡單的回顧以後呢,我們來看現在的莫納克的災後重建的這個條例。大概在2009年然後到103年,一共5年的時間,它廢止了。那現在廢止的到現在已經將近10年的時間。那我們看它現在的一些檢討方案。"},{"start":4101.072,"end":4113.081,"text":"我們的監察院在兩年前曾經提出檢討報告,非常厚的報告,不曉得行政院後來有沒有收到這份報告,我相信一定有。那我這邊,因為你是新任,所以我給你這一份新的。"},{"start":4132.741,"end":4137.546,"text":"這麼厚的一個檢討報告 我不知道相關單位有沒有想死的去看"},{"start":4138.231,"end":4138.631,"text":"（6月24日（6月25日（6月25日"},{"start":4168.291,"end":4175.257,"text":"不過絕大多數的設置的地方都是在第三個也就是說大概都已經都離開他原本生活的範圍"},{"start":4176.616,"end":4198.388,"text":"那集體簽春的時候會造成很多我們現在可以看到的一些現象比如說他跟沒有辦法跟當地的文化或者是他原來的一些情感這些糾葛非常的造成現在你如果你到屏東會看到很多亂象在那邊我相信主委知道對不對對好"},{"start":4199.609,"end":4227.676,"text":"那我最主要要講的就是說現在他那個品質就一一浮現因為當時在建造的時候他大概只用100天左右的時間來完成這些所謂的永久屋所以他沒有所謂的保固的一個問題那所以如果類似以後有這樣的一個那麼強的風災發生的時候如果還有永久屋的一個需求的話應該這個保固的應該列為他們以後在建造類似房子的一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":4229.517,"end":4256.514,"text":"選項,因為當時沒有重視這個,你看那個臺東的大屋來看,你看它每一個房子幾乎都有呈現大小不一的一個非常嚴重的問題,而且是沒有人可以幫他們解決,因為它是永久屋嘛,它是已經給你保管,所以你等於是要自己去自費去處理,相關所有沒有這樣的經費去幫忙他們來,比如說排水溝的問題啦,屋內漏水的問題啦,這些諸如此類品質不良的問題。"},{"start":4258.535,"end":4283.58,"text":"還有比較重要就是說這個三方契約當時的三方契約就是跟受災戶慈善團體跟縣市政府辦的一個三方契約不過這個三方契約非常的嚴苛不得處分不得出租也不得設定負擔不得在回原居地居住或建造房屋這個三方契約如果不檢討的話會衍生的問題會越來越多接下來我們再看下一個問題"},{"start":4287.335,"end":4306.654,"text":"上方契約的當然是一個美意不過他現在我們看到了世代傳承、人口繁衍、生活發展包括他的目的這些都沒有在當時的考量範圍裡面然後他必須在三個月之內當時要離開他原來的居住的地方那不得再回原居地"},{"start":4307.813,"end":4328,"text":"還有一個就是最重要,我認為最重要的就是它的土地是地方政府管有。 你看一下我們位在元寶地的有這些區域,比如說山梅、迦蘭這些,還有我們牡丹。 那在傳統領域的有萊籍的、山林的、里納里的這些,我相信主委大概都了解。"},{"start":4329.24,"end":4355.395,"text":"我們是希望這個永久屋的土地所有權取得的這個問題,能夠聽當地民眾的真實需求,評估永久屋取得土地所有權的事法性,或者是研究其他可行的方案,不然他們在那裡到底是算什麼呢?又不能回主居地,那個土地又不是他的,又不能去所謂的陳租或者是說很多限制就對了,好不好?"},{"start":4356.515,"end":4375.085,"text":"這麼多年了已經第15年我相信我們應該好好處理這個問題然後呢就是我們監察院竟然已經處理我們災後的人權促進會他的問題可是我們已經初刊了兩年了到現在還是沒有相關的一個配套措施來回應監察院的問題不是嗎"},{"start":4380.107,"end":4405.854,"text":"我跟委員報告這個永久屋會有永久屋是當時就是說設立他在平地蓋永久屋他原來的土地原來的房子還是他的就是說他這邊永久屋也有也有他的房子跟土地那麼原來的這個房屋讓他休養生息幾年幾十年之後他還是可以回去工作也好回去就是說去做一些檢疫的這個"},{"start":4406.673,"end":4409.435,"text":"８三、6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。８三、6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。８三、6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。８"},{"start":4436.87,"end":4456.523,"text":"還要跟主任再繼續我們繼續再來溝通好不好OK那我是希望他因為他是跨了七個縣市那我就看對院長的一個建議就是說能不能因為他是跨七個縣市能不能在最短的時間現在在行政院設立專案的辦公室因為總統他也因為他的"},{"start":4457.243,"end":4458.945,"text":"報告委員．行政院吳哲成前政委他已經就永久屋"},{"start":4476.965,"end":4491.407,"text":"政策來組織過專案的小組也開過歷次的會議做了一些重大的一些決定比如為了保障這個土地永久的使用它不能被列為法拍的一個標的物所以它不能透過這個行為"},{"start":4492.128,"end":4513.786,"text":"目前所遇到的現在所有的問題誰可以解決．比如說剛才說的排水溝的問題啦．內部設計不良的問題啊．還有它的引用水．還有它的那個冰藏的用地啊這些．如果大家都全部集中在縣市政府．我相信他們是沒有辦法來解決．一定要中央層級來處理這樣的一個問題原在歷年內政部也發布過莫納克颱風災"},{"start":4515.407,"end":4533.113,"text":"後民間興建正與住宅修繕補助作業的要點每戶補助10萬元那麼在111、112、113兩年補助的地方政府已經有637件這個有沒有實際上幫助到居在永久屋裡面的原住民的朋友"},{"start":4533.433,"end":4535.775,"text":"（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":4560.814,"end":4562.414,"text":"一定有必要,不然我會持續做這個問題,好嗎?"},{"start":4562.414,"end":4562.574,"text":"主委"},{"start":4587.776,"end":4610.122,"text":"那針對我們原住民淨法補償,謝謝昨天已經公佈法律了,我有看到公告。那本席想要確認的就是說,是他會壓縮到我們原有的預算嗎?還是行政院這邊要籌編預算,我只想知道這個答案。主委跟委員報告,那有關這個淨法補償現在是已經公佈了。"},{"start":4613.413,"end":4640.71,"text":"我們現在也在做概算的籌編當然我們是希望說我們有跟農業部這裡再怎麼樣就是說我們跟他們協調看怎麼樣在這個森林保育底下還有在這麼所有的這個保留地的林地有很多是跟我們這個農業部這裡有重疊的我們在想在提報一個中長城計畫是不是"},{"start":4641.593,"end":4666.772,"text":"希望那個多出來的3萬塊、每公頃3萬塊能不能也在這個裡面來做處理。那總是就是我們希望我們會循程序來提報。那當然我們也希望就是說這個業裡面會給我們協助這樣子。因為公告就是明年要實施嘛。就是明年實施沒有問題。也不會打折扣。也沒有當書。也沒有附加條件。這是大家比較關心的問題。"},{"start":4668.888,"end":4672.272,"text":"目前是沒有延後,就是我們會想窮盡一切的辦法為了照顧我們的族人受到限制,我們會提出一個辦法來,好不好?"},{"start":4692.642,"end":4707.672,"text":"最重要的個人在選舉期間的政見謝謝那針對我們原住民文化行政人才的養成我一再的在說明就是說目前的原住民的各個地區的民族文物館很多大概目前有156名是臨時人員"},{"start":4710.074,"end":4733.852,"text":"我們重視原住民文化,我們認為原住民文化是世界的一個瑰寶,也是我們臺灣堪稱在世界上引以為傲的一個產業,可是相關的人才的培訓確實是沒有,而且都是我們剛剛都看都不是公務員,那如果說政府可以把它當作是一個很重要的一個類課的話,能不能就"},{"start":4735.413,"end":4737.076,"text":"這個跟委員報告我們會要求縣尤其是特別有這個"},{"start":4750.233,"end":4752.794,"text":"（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":4779.221,"end":4779.981,"text":"我們會請現項提報這考受提報這個"},{"start":4794.745,"end":4810.106,"text":"文化的這個切出來報告委員現行的原住民族特考裡面我們已經是有文化行政的對只考過一次只有一個人那個人經過世了人數比較少人數比較少那這個已經有開辦這樣的"},{"start":4811.147,"end":4812.749,"text":"他不僅僅是一個文化的一個載體他也可以"},{"start":4829.486,"end":4832.947,"text":"（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":4856.533,"end":4859.435,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":4870.45,"end":4891.189,"text":"現在聚落是商戶嘛,定義為商戶,希望就針對泰雅族的部分不要以商戶為聚落,因為當然是整體來說商戶是可以達成,可是就泰雅族群來說,他的散居的個性,獨特性他沒有辦法商戶變成一個聚落,這個可以做調整,針對泰雅族群的。"},{"start":4893.052,"end":4920.465,"text":"第二、為辦理保存登記的如何取得建造使用執照。．第三、針對原住民受理使用住宅的時候．他不應該設落日條款。．因為我記得每次在國土計劃法的說明會的時候很像都有落日條款。我跟委員報告一下您剛所說的聚落的定義"},{"start":4937.309,"end":4943.594,"text":"好,謝謝謝謝陸委員,謝謝卓院長下一位我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":4965.675,"end":4984.224,"text":"副院長,我們行政院院長,各部會首長,有請我們卓院長。來請卓院長備詢。卓院長,來喔。你好。你好。"},{"start":4987.267,"end":5016.407,"text":"好 這個非常謝謝這個進法原住民保留地進法補償條例在昨天在我們等了又等我也打了很多次電話到總統府終於公布事情謝謝好 我們看這個進法補償在104年12月18日立法院根據原住民立委的版本沒有行政院版本"},{"start":5017.467,"end":5041.855,"text":"三讀通過當時就是這個105年每公頃2萬塊106年開始每公頃3萬塊通過之後我們鄭文燦擔任桃園市市長的時候他馬上加碼他的理由是什麼呢因為臺灣省政府"},{"start":5043.17,"end":5067.512,"text":"從民國82年起進法補償每工刑就是兩萬塊．所以現在還是兩萬塊．太少了加碼四萬塊。．大家比較遺憾的是他當了副院長之後．且沒有去推動加碼的一個修法。．好我們看這個原住民族基本法21條．"},{"start":5070.1,"end":5096.882,"text":"政府或法令限制原住民族利用前向土地及自然資源的時候,也就是原住民族土地及自然資源的時候,受限制所生之損失應由該主管機關,該主管機關是誰呢?就是森林法限制了我們,水土保持法限制了我們的土地,我們只能造林,造林之後又不能砍伐拿去賣。"},{"start":5098.271,"end":5127.535,"text":"包括．計劃法．國土保安用地等等。．所以過去都．一開始的條文是由行政院來編列預算。．後來被修正為由聯名會。．事實上應該要依延期法．由各該主管機關來去編列預算。．今年爭取的進法補償的議程真的是很艱辛。．沒想到都還要表決。．而且"},{"start":5128.806,"end":5156.801,"text":"所有原住民的立委都有提案而且兩位民進黨的立委都有很多民進黨的立委像吳立法的有15位的民進黨的立委聯署陳委員的有19位的民進黨立委聯署所以如果加上國民黨民眾黨無黨籍差不多超過90位的立委支持結果還要表決"},{"start":5158.629,"end":5175.137,"text":"這表決的結果這些人也有連署的原來連署吳委員跟陳委員的都投反對票形同測案一樣所以這個部分是需要去檢視的重點"},{"start":5177.697,"end":5204.427,"text":"重點我們一直在關心的就是我也在一再的跟行政院主席總處﹖包括延民會講的就是114年度如期實施而現在就要開始編列預算而且要編列額度外的新增預算。 院長這個不是延民會可以決定的。 院長是不是可以由額度外新增預算。"},{"start":5206.357,"end":5214.357,"text":"報告委員我現在在思考的是依照原民會今年的預算明年的概算他的規模"},{"start":5215.748,"end":5242.584,"text":"我們用今年的預算跟明年概算來看它的規模現在用26億再加26億就是增加3萬元的補助用40%來執行單一政策之後對於所有將近60萬的原住民族朋友我們有什麼方式來普遍照顧他的權益目前我認為看起來是相當的困難現在預算的規模來看那預算規模能不能膨脹到多大"},{"start":5245.626,"end":5273.143,"text":"這個現在我無法來表示但是一個單一個部會的預算規模應該就是在現在概算的這個額定理和額度裡面的所以依照目前看起來未來只用在單一政策用40%一個部會的預算再加上他的法定支出只剩下大概10多%的預算百分之十幾的預算會用在全體的原住民族身上這個我現在是很傷腦筋的院長不必傷腦筋的"},{"start":5274.404,"end":5288.862,"text":"就是法律義務,這是最簡單的。 30年公務員,法律義務支出。 然後我剛有講了研究法21條,它不是應該只有延民會來編列,包括農業部。"},{"start":5291.047,"end":5315.772,"text":"甚至內政部都應該要編列。 這一個前提是我認為每一個部會都應該廣泛的照顧所有的政策。 單一政策用40%預算的這樣的例子前所未有真的是很傷腦筋。 這個法律不是新訂的。 但是比例的原則要顧及。 你要比例的話你就要以鄭文燦副院長當時的比例。 這個"},{"start":5319.181,"end":5340.545,"text":"我們卓院長你的施政方針口頭報告在5月31號提出來的一、一憲法法庭判決競速完成原住民身份法的修法我要特別跟院長做一個非常審慎而且非常嚴肅的來去解決這個問題"},{"start":5345.454,"end":5370.313,"text":"111年10月28日現判制第17號,他現法判決有兩個途徑,一個途徑就是剛才你口頭施政方針報告裡面所提的修正原住民身份法,另外一個途徑是認定特別法,這個是必須我以下來讓這個院長能夠了解,"},{"start":5373.905,"end":5400.473,"text":"原住民族與平埔族群原來就互不隸屬了從清朝到日本到中華民國政府都是用首藩從過去的首藩、生藩、高砂族這個平埔族群都是這樣不同的法律不同的管理不同的管理好我們讓這個院長"},{"start":5403.362,"end":5429.609,"text":"省省等級評估希望能夠參考我的意見。 行政院在106年18月18號就提出了原住民身份法的修正案就是針對平埔族他特別在原住民身份法修正案我先跟院長報告原住民身份法是在陳水扁總統任內"},{"start":5431.479,"end":5454.801,"text":"第一年深度通過．我那時候是處長．我那時候是處長所炒你出來的。．好．這個行政院的106年8月18號的版本．平普原住民．增加了一個平普原住民．然後明定其民族權利另以法律定制。．原住民身份法．"},{"start":5457.331,"end":5469.817,"text":"這個在106年9月22日送到立法院之後,立法院在106年10月11日、12月20日、12月21日、107年12月24日完成審查。 完成審查了。但是呢,從107年12月24日一直到"},{"start":5482.932,"end":5510.597,"text":"第九屆的立法院109年1月31日一年多的時間基於絕對多數的民進黨立委在立法院沒有把他列入在立法院的院會我們也沒有反對但是沒有讓他三讀通過為什麼呢?知識體大真的是知識體大"},{"start":5511.994,"end":5538.124,"text":"本席也把這段包括前面我講的在憲法法庭判決之前我也寫了信每一個大法官我都寄給他們讓他們了解知識體大所以才會有後來我的判斷沒有人大法官沒有告訴我我的判斷所以後來他們才會說可以修原住民身法"},{"start":5539.332,"end":5565.267,"text":"或者是另定專法。（6月25日（另定專法是有它的一個要去審慎的一個評估的地方。（6月25日（地方。（6月25日（所以因為時間的關係關係。（6月25日（我所謂的時間。（6月25日（憲法（憲法法庭所定的一個時間3年。（6月25日（到明年就3年了。（6月25日（所以要請嚴明會（6月25日（要請行政院加速的來擬定（6月25日（"},{"start":5567.093,"end":5590.658,"text":"我的建議是平埔族身份法,如果按照整個憲法的判決的條文內容各方面,他的理由各方面的話,應該是制定平埔族身份法是最恰當的,而且他的權利義務是另一法律定制。 院長可以朝這個方向嗎?"},{"start":5592.53,"end":5599.781,"text":"報告委員現在我們在程序過去的程序下來就是針對原住民身份法"},{"start":5602.048,"end":5629.328,"text":"請原民會繼續再跟各界做更多的溝通那麼也希望他能夠具體的有一個期限能夠拿出一些溝通之後對於這個修法的方向那目前的進度在這裡那至於說已經進行了什麼樣的溝通相信要由原民會來跟委員來報告一下那個這樣齁時間的關係我的建議啦我的建議就是趕快炒你炒 原民會趕快炒你炒案"},{"start":5630.316,"end":5659.124,"text":"然後跟各界溝通希望在今年現在是6月希望在今年的10月或11月能夠送到行政院讓給行政院一些空間時間來討論然後希望能夠在今年年底以前送到立法院為什麼呢因為明年只有半年的時間了"},{"start":5661.622,"end":5689.602,"text":"五月底以前必須三讀通過才能夠符合憲法法庭的一個時間。好,謝謝委員的指教,我們會照這樣的進度,我們現在也在跟這個,也跟專家寫者,我們現在在也就...好,加油,好,加油。好,院長的施政方針口頭報告在5月31日,裡面也提到政府也將落實原住民族基本法,背立原住民族自治的推動。"},{"start":5691.415,"end":5720.4,"text":"書面報告也提到建全原住民族土地法制（維護原住民族土地權益。（我要特別跟院長做詳細的說明。（中華民國憲法徵修條文第10條第12項（規定國家應依民族意願保障原住民族之地位及政治參與（並對其交易文化很多。（我們就談土地（土地（然後其辦法另於法律定制。（"},{"start":5722.16,"end":5737.591,"text":"現在原住民族基本法就是根據憲法徵修條文第10條第12項來制定的,94年2月5日公布施行。 這裡面特別授權給行政院院長。"},{"start":5739.518,"end":5768.384,"text":"行政院為審議協調本法相關事務應設置推動委員會由行政院院長召集至這是非常重要的一個條文但是過去沒有善用這個條文我當副主委的時候常務副主委的時候都有善用這個條文把案子送給當時的院長去討論去通過推動我們原住民主基本法"},{"start":5769.542,"end":5795.358,"text":"制定的法律。．好,這個我就舉例子。．研究法推動會第11次會議．111年8月28日．這個議程討論什麼．南島民主論壇推動情形報告．只要報告事項．而且跟研究法毫無關係．沒有．到底哪些法律還沒有．還沒有．還沒有制定．為什麼．應該要做毫無討論．"},{"start":5797.065,"end":5825.187,"text":"在112年9月13日也是一樣．一個報告事項．長期照顧．這個跟這個延期法什麼關係．類似像這樣的．好我現在這個讓．院長．包括各部會能夠瞭解一下．1722年．清朝康熙61年．劃設藩界．大清律例．法律．清國的．清朝的法律．大清律例．"},{"start":5826.38,"end":5853.695,"text":"明月借,人民是誰?清朝的人民。明月借入深番地,勢同出道入關塞。清朝的時候的臺灣地圖,從中國大陸看臺灣。好,牡丹社事件之前,日本為了要攻打牡丹社,他就說深番地是無主之地,深番地不是清朝的土地,他就打了。"},{"start":5855.66,"end":5856.28,"text":"好,日本敗戰回到日本。"},{"start":5885.168,"end":5908.685,"text":"有沒有把土地帶回去日本沒有還在臺灣但是呢臺灣省政府在臺灣省政府在36年定了一個臺灣省土地全力清理辦法特別規定今前臺灣總督府依據土地調查及領域"},{"start":5911.485,"end":5937.184,"text":"不清理之結果﹖收歸公有之土地蓋不發還。﹖這是臺灣省政府1947年﹖民國三十幾六年。﹖這個臺灣總工府當時收歸官有的土地蓋不發還。﹖所以就繼續就變成國有土地了。﹖臺灣省山地保留地省政府定的民國49年。﹖化設了"},{"start":5941.522,"end":5965.8,"text":"三地保留地24萬公頃。（7、6年起（因為審議員（因為立法委員的建議（所以臺灣省政府根據行政規則（到現在還是用一個要點計畫（真化編原住民保留地（然後這個原住民保留地管理辦法（後來提升為中央的法規（"},{"start":5968.223,"end":5995.71,"text":"原住民族中華民國的總統陳水扁總統在民國91年10月19日跟原住民族簽訂的協定這個協定就是條約為什麼呢依照條約締結法的規定條約協定就是條約的名稱當然我們還是回到法律我們這個"},{"start":5998.067,"end":6026.369,"text":"陳水扁總統的條約應該去落實。﹐原住民族基本法20條明定。﹐政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利。﹐原住民族或原住民所有使用之土地、海域其回覆、其得處分、計劃、管理及利用等事項另以法律定之。﹐所以陳水扁總統任內開始"},{"start":6028.649,"end":6051.6,"text":"也就是本席擔任副主委的時候,草擬原住民族土地及海域法本席召開跨部會的會議,開了10次,10次,然後送到行政院我們當時的蘇貞昌院長不是交給負責人民會業務的林旺毅政委"},{"start":6052.139,"end":6079.528,"text":"是交給誰呢?．他考量說不要影響到公共政策．所謂的公共工程．我的判斷．交給當時的政務委員．行政院公共工程委員會的．吳哲成政務委員．來負責這個．審議這個．審查這個原住民族土地及海域法．本席親自去跟他做簡報．簡報完之後．"},{"start":6082.881,"end":6109.938,"text":"我們吳哲成政委開了三天三夜當然每一天都是隔了一個禮拜隔了一個禮拜然後審查做了一個決定然後送到院會把原住民族土地及海域法行政院院會通過送到立法院很可惜送到立法院的時候已經借期不聯繫了所以就沒有審議然後馬英九總統"},{"start":6110.808,"end":6138.595,"text":"任內也送了兩次也都是一樣時間都是太晚了好蔡總統這個105年8月1號向原住民族道歉並且承諾會加快將原住民族自治法及原住民族土地夾黑法送請立法院審議但是這兩個法例這八年來都沒有送我們是非常的遺憾我要特別跟院長"},{"start":6139.924,"end":6155.669,"text":"還有各部會來報告說明我們從這個資料面積就可以知道不要擔心原住民族很寬宏的原住民保留地剛剛講24萬公頃經過增化編之後現在是26萬多公頃維持公有的百分之48.866"},{"start":6168.069,"end":6184.297,"text":"仍然維持公有的原住民保育地,還是各部會去管理的、去使用的還維持48.66%,施有的已經給原住民所有錢的51.34%,原住民"},{"start":6190.051,"end":6214.985,"text":"原住民我自己用夠了就好了你政府機關你要用沒關係因為要做什麼使用沒關係所以不要擔心有了土海法是不是全台灣就不見了不會我要講這個數字就要讓院長跟各部會尤其是人民會你好好的說明這個數字數據很多"},{"start":6219.349,"end":6238.582,"text":"傳統文明已經化身了也生安無事啊所以讓院長這個讀法案法希望能夠以陳水扁總統當時所提出來的非常審慎所審議的為基礎你們可不可以再討論趕快送到立法院可以嗎"},{"start":6246.69,"end":6274.633,"text":"報告委員,我相信委員也清楚,這個土愛法涉及的層面範圍非常的廣泛,所以才會數次在立法院裡面進進出出。但是據我所知,他還沒有真正進入到實質的討論,都是一個程序上的問題。那我想,園民會應該有一個新的想法,或是在廣收各界的意見之後,目前他有沒有更積極的態度,請園民會來報告。"},{"start":6277.642,"end":6304.488,"text":"因為這個齁,跟我們還是要重啓這個,我們還要再徵刑我們的這個地方政府。 因為剛上任了齁,院長剛上任。我的一建議就是說,以陳水扁總統任內,第一個我開了十幾次會議,第二,吳哲成政委開了三天三夜,早起各部會喔,然後送到行政院會所審議出來的。"},{"start":6306.636,"end":6334.484,"text":"以這個做基礎．在很快的把它提送到行政院。．我的建議是這樣。．好,在下委員請教,謝謝。好,研究法第4條要實行原住民族自治。好,陳水扁總統任內提了92年跟96年提了兩次原住民族自治7法他是一個程式性的一個立法當時"},{"start":6336.844,"end":6343.571,"text":"這個原住民的立委是不贊同因為他每一個每一組都要另外制定提出"},{"start":6344.232,"end":6369.342,"text":"自治法送到立法院．這是違反自治制度的一個立法例．所以就沒有通過．沒有審查了．然後滿一九總統．在99年10月8號提了原住民主自治法．然後103年12月18號．又提了一個原住民主自治暫行條例．內政委員會針對馬總統．"},{"start":6373.786,"end":6383.394,"text":"第一次提的,召開了三次的一個審查,很可惜沒有完成三讀。 然後後來104年又提了這個戰刑條例,"},{"start":6388.758,"end":6407.937,"text":"本席已經開始當立委了一百零四年已經最後一八屆的最後一年最後一年我們經過很多次的協商討論把它改為原住民主自治推動條例就我一個老公務員來講或是考量到整個各縣市的狀況而言"},{"start":6410.399,"end":6437.399,"text":"是可以參考這個我們立法院各黨團所討論的這個原住民自治制推動條例這個回去去參考本席的建議不要再花很多錢那個院長你看一下這個這張表嚴明會從105年對原住民自治制的預算"},{"start":6439.039,"end":6466.253,"text":"一直到今年花了真的是非常非常多錢總共加起來三千六百三十九萬八千結果這八年來連送立法院一個草案都沒有所以這個部分真的是已經過去有經驗了本席擔任這個陳水扁總統我還是處長的時候我們草擬草案"},{"start":6468.049,"end":6494.12,"text":"各族群各縣市都討論過所以這個部分不要再花那麼多的一個經費這個我的建議就是說就是參考這個陳水扁總統的草案馬英九總統時代的草案"},{"start":6495.475,"end":6517.035,"text":"加上原住民立法委員．在立法院所．剛才所講的這個．原住民組自治推動條例．這三個來去．在座審慎的去討論．能夠提出行政院的一個自治法的草案。 院長可以嗎?"},{"start":6518.937,"end":6539.013,"text":"報告委員這個剛剛那個有類似的情況也是在立法院裡面經過很多次的進進出出這8年來沒有了對但是因為這個直接牽涉到現在地方政府很多行政權的權限行政權的話分還有這個地方參政權等等"},{"start":6539.633,"end":6539.733,"text":"我再補充"},{"start":6565.137,"end":6590.068,"text":"這個原住民族自治推動條例馬英九時代這個部分當時孫大川主委參考了姚家文前院長的一個建議類似像國家公園這樣一個區域所以不影響到現行的地方自治"},{"start":6590.879,"end":6594.681,"text":"．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":6620.123,"end":6642.834,"text":"零四零三地震的重建,這個我曾﹐院長也許太忙,我曾經拿一封信給你,所以這個是一定要往這方向去進行,重建,你們這個當然院長還沒有上任之前,行政院所提的一個方案,"},{"start":6644.475,"end":6668.102,"text":"重建、重構貸款最高350萬這個利息補貼。 修繕是150萬利息補貼。 我要特別提到當然現在完全交給內政部其實是我認為是有是不足以解決這個問題。 一定要其他的部會來協助。 92125年前92125年前他訂了一個"},{"start":6674.714,"end":6686.558,"text":"重建家園貸款信用保證業務處理要點所以這個就會包含銀行的參與怎麼樣去處理所以當時350萬到150萬利息補貼150萬以下是免息"},{"start":6699.54,"end":6726.991,"text":"二十五年前是這樣以當時的物價指數利率各方面所以現在的情況我們看這個當初就訂了然後後來修正都是一樣都是會讓他更好都是二十五年前的一個相關的這些處理要點所以我的建議一定要去解決這個問題所以要請院長"},{"start":6729.42,"end":6755.146,"text":"能夠指派政務委員、召集內政部、財政部﹖甚至經濟部相關的部會來去好好地討論﹖這樣的話才會能夠真正解決從0403地震重建或是重構這樣的一個方向好不好﹖ 可以嗎﹖"},{"start":6756.646,"end":6782.833,"text":"報告委員整個0403的重建不僅是我本人來擔任這個小組的召集人我們會請工程會曾經的主委等統合因為很多牽涉他相關的業務也有跨部會的那包安內政部等等都會在你針對這些類似的問題做一個最終的處理那現在已經有部分已經在處理當中了我知道因為現在這個正在那個吧但是要重建或是要重構"},{"start":6784.328,"end":6806.378,"text":"是後續就會面臨到的問題,好不好?好,謝謝政委員。好,謝謝卓院長。下一位陳素月委員之質詢已書面提出,請行政院書面答覆,並列入紀錄刊登公報。下一位我們請吳麗華委員質詢。"},{"start":6822.863,"end":6826.244,"text":"謝謝主席。有請卓院長。卓院長請備詢。國務委員好。院長好。很高興在這邊見到您。我要先跟您說聲感謝。因為您在擔任黨主席的時候徵召我參選立委。我得以今天有機會站在這個地方,在這邊跟您說聲感謝。"},{"start":6853.127,"end":6879.162,"text":"我會繼續努力那我要跟院長說明一下我先自我介紹我的族名叫做那我目前是被編定在魯凱族那我先是臺灣原住民再來是中華民國的國民我愛我的族人"},{"start":6879.861,"end":6881.121,"text":"你是熱愛中華民國臺灣的國家的主人。"},{"start":6898.599,"end":6920.01,"text":"我們知道中國在21日召開了一個懲戒臺獨的記者會。 如果依照這個定義,我們大概有8成5的國人都會落入臺獨份子,而且有可能入罪,而且心生恐懼。 請教一下院長您的態度如何?"},{"start":6924.165,"end":6943.186,"text":"委員你好,謝謝您中國大陸推出這22條的意見我想只要不是中共所定義的統一的話都可能被列為台獨所以應該是超過你剛所說的八成的人數不過我們要強調"},{"start":6945.083,"end":6961.201,"text":"北京當局對我國並沒有任何的司法管轄權他的法律、他的規範和包括他的22條的意見對於我們國人都沒有任何的這個拘束力"},{"start":6962.261,"end":6963.542,"text":"政府有責任保護所有國民的安全所以在"},{"start":6989.295,"end":7014.411,"text":"中華民國境內我們所有的國人當然受到政府最好的保障那我們有國人也會外出我希望拿中華民國護照的所有的國人去到每一個國家既然這本護照能夠在當地國自由的進出就應該得到當地國政府權利的保護中華民國國民持有這個護照的國民的人身安全"},{"start":7015.319,"end":7027.067,"text":"第三、如果我們要到中國大陸去旅遊去做各種的訪問或者工商的往來確實你要先注意到自己的安全能不能在你有效的管控底下"},{"start":7027.93,"end":7055.903,"text":"否則政府透過陸委會透過海基會能夠做的現在對方的態度是消極的所以我很希望國人能夠慎重的考慮啊慎重的考慮謝謝院長我此生還沒有踏入過中國的國土那我在這裡呢其實是要提到我們跟土地的關係其實原住民族跟土地的關係就跟母親的期待一樣真的是一個密不可分"},{"start":7056.503,"end":7066.52,"text":"那很多人很難理解原住民對土地的感情,像我們很著名的印第安酋長西雅圖,他的那一篇宣言,非常的感人。"},{"start":7067.455,"end":7096.743,"text":"他們跟土地就像家人一樣的感情我們排灣族也會說土地不會拒絕任何一顆種子泰雅族也會說土地是血山林是家所以很多人很難了解原住民跟土地的感情跟關係特別是昨天的下午總統賴清德他公布了這一次引起大家原住民族人高度重視的進法補償條例的修正"},{"start":7097.677,"end":7114.711,"text":"院長是不是這代表著明年的1月1號開始我們就可以試用新的辦法報告委員剛剛我有答覆過我再跟委員報告一次我覺得從進法補償的這個金額從3萬調整到6萬整個金費從26億調到52億這個佔據原住民族今年度"},{"start":7122.837,"end":7127,"text":"明年會不會支持?是不是明年就會開始?"},{"start":7127,"end":7134.006,"text":"是,明年會不會適用這個新辦法?"},{"start":7134.006,"end":7139.95,"text":"是,那現在傷腦筋的是那如何用其他的再扣掉法定支出之外的剩下百分之十多?"},{"start":7140.981,"end":7142.901,"text":"我們是不是可以確保這個心智上路?"},{"start":7171.023,"end":7194.433,"text":"這個是依法行政必須要做那就是依法行政嘛對不對那行政措施怎麼來處理我們會研究出來行政措施怎麼處理對一定是合法的依法行政謝謝院長其實我會這樣子講還有一個原因您看一下這則新聞這個是幾年前在台東縣議會爆發一個畸變有一位議員呢他直接提案刪除"},{"start":7195.43,"end":7197.135,"text":"原民會撥補給原民處2200萬元的禁法補償金的追加預算"},{"start":7201.772,"end":7228.049,"text":"那他的理由是什麼呢?他說漢人曾租國有地幾十年也拿不到所有權,原住民在保留地五年就可以取得。事實是什麼呢?幾十年來,原住民的土地沒有所有權,只有他向權利。因為政府制度的改變,讓我們在五年之後就可以被承認權利。也有人說,他說為什麼原住民考試可以加分?事實是什麼?"},{"start":7229.21,"end":7244.478,"text":"外交官的孩子也可以加分。 僑生也可以加分。 科技人才子女也可以加分。 軍人身心障礙者都可以加分。 所以在這個地方我要特別提到在我們的聯合國原住民族的權利宣言在我們的原基法"},{"start":7244.978,"end":7260.858,"text":"其實政府是承認原住民族的土地跟自然資源,我們原本可以根據這一些政府承認原住民的固有主權,包括我們的狩獵、水源、溫泉、能源等等,來發展我們的社會組織、文化、經濟。"},{"start":7262.78,"end":7286.978,"text":"但是國家點滴式的福利餵養有意無意的擴大了社會的對立跟衝突我特別要在這邊跟院長說其實我們始終都很清楚原住民自治、原住民族的教育是我們擺脫國家社會福利補助污名的唯一途徑我很高興您在5月31日來這個地方做施政報告"},{"start":7287.598,"end":7303.712,"text":"您有提到說政府將落實原基法必立原住民族自治推動。您也有提到政府將逐步發展雙軌制的原住民族教育體系。我們來看一段影片因為您這段話跟我們的賴總統的政見一模一樣。"},{"start":7304.787,"end":7310.509,"text":"賴清德講到原民自治,強調由下而上推動,首先就是確立部落公法人的法律地位。"},{"start":7327.377,"end":7342.553,"text":"2002年,我們前總統陳水扁正式的國家文件簽署了與原住民的新夥伴關係協定。2005年,我們有了原基法。2016年,前總統蔡英文代表國家跟原住民道歉。"},{"start":7343.875,"end":7358.471,"text":"2024年我們的賴總統宣布要推動原住民族由下而上的自治這個單位叫做部落公法人我要跟院長說明原基法有這樣的一個法源法條部落要設置部落會議"},{"start":7359.492,"end":7381.423,"text":"部落經原民會主管機關合定為公法人,但是院長你知道嗎?我們的部落會議目前具有法律效力,但是我們原民會合定認可的這些740個部落卻沒有公法人的地位。我要跟院長說明,推動部落公法人是原住民自治很重要的基礎。"},{"start":7382.503,"end":7392.288,"text":"先不要談自治沒有公法人我們不能談自治那我要跟您說明為什麼要推動部落公法人第一個以我們的雅尼"},{"start":7393.502,"end":7417.045,"text":"利益分享回饋金來講到底要存在哪裡沒有部落公法人只好找一個協會存在協會蘭嶼的核廢料補償金這麼多錢到底要存在哪裡沒有部落公法人只好設立一個基金會存起來但是這些協會這些基金會甚至是合作社公司難道可以代表部落全體嗎"},{"start":7418.466,"end":7438.894,"text":"當我們的林業署在推動狩獵自主管理﹖我們到底要跟誰簽﹖我們還得成立一個獵人協會﹖然後由理事長來簽﹖我們的很多的法令﹖礦業法、水利法、再生能源條例等等都說要跟部落進行諮商﹖但是我們的那些利益分享到底我們要跟誰簽﹖"},{"start":7440.214,"end":7466.037,"text":"真正要簽的是部落會議主席但是我們跟理事長簽跟鄉長簽跟很多的人簽就是部落主席不能簽因為他沒有法律地位我們部落辦的這些公共事務像文件站互助教保中心我們只好成立一個協會來承辦我們的部落公共事業有溫泉有地熱很多人要跟我們合作開發我們只能找一個合作公司"},{"start":7466.497,"end":7469.659,"text":"（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":7483.387,"end":7483.687,"text":"我是想要跟院長說﹖"},{"start":7500.464,"end":7500.504,"text":"（6月25日（"},{"start":7522.759,"end":7548.964,"text":"傳統智慧創作保護我們未來也有生物多樣性的知識像那些保種計畫我們都會有權利我們都會有權利金甚至是未來的森林探會我們的森林驗證我們都沒有部落公法人可以處理我們不知道該怎麼辦所以我在這邊特別就是要拜託院長部落公法人我們的部落就會自主的發展成為一個自治學體"},{"start":7549.924,"end":7573.223,"text":"未來自治要怎麼走部落他要跟誰自治他的自治是像是什麼這個都不用政府煩惱但是一定要從部落公法人開始那我這邊有一個短短的影片這是一個老人家是一個國民黨的大佬做過校長鄉長議員他在過世的三天前他只教訓我一個任務請聽一下"},{"start":7584.809,"end":7587.232,"text":"院長,這個八十幾歲的老人家,國民黨的大佬,"},{"start":7599.329,"end":7621.706,"text":"他勉勵我只要做到這一項就好因為我們都很清楚知道要擺脫國家福利補助的汙名只能透過我們的自治跟我們的教育所以我希望院長可以責成原名會兩個月內第一個去處理部落公法人的設置條例法律未接那在這個之前希望可以擬定草案"},{"start":7622.166,"end":7622.266,"text":"（6月25日"},{"start":7637.364,"end":7666.808,"text":"報告委員很感動剛剛那段影片的那一句話我終於知道委員在這個工作上是一直會持續下去的您提到這個議題我想原民會一定會針對每個部落民族他的政經文化的差異人口多少的差異再跟大家積極的溝通謝謝院長那另外一個教育的問題我也覺得我今天一定希望能夠得到你的一個肯認因為您也說了政府也即將逐步推動雙軌的教育"},{"start":7667.27,"end":7694.065,"text":"我們的賴總統也在他的政見當中很清楚的說明那我現在要跟您說其實原教法已經有法源說要做原住民族學校而且是由中央原住民的主管機關也就是原民會來規劃原住民族的學校的設立事項其實在2018年召開過公聽會2022年立法院也曾經排審但是重點末中一事沒有共識因為大家根本不知道原住民族學校是什麼"},{"start":7694.565,"end":7711.42,"text":"但是我們從聯合國的宣言我們可以看到所謂的原住民族學校就是以自己的語言和教學方法來提供教育我們看到這些年很多人都去紐西蘭去看毛利族怎麼做但是我們看到他們有了幼兒園的沉浸學校等等"},{"start":7711.9,"end":7739.468,"text":"可是我們的國家截至目前都是做半套我也曾經質詢過很多次要求要試辦但是到現在都沒有結果我要講的是其實有決心有什麼做不到我們來看一下教育部113年的預算編載我們的民族教育跟語言6.44億元民會113年編載我們這些語言7.12億我們的原住民族教育經費教育部法定預算64億多"},{"start":7741.269,"end":7769.428,"text":"我想說的是我們難道沒有辦法做一個原住民族學校嗎?我希望呢我們的園民會我們就比照像這些科學園區設立的學校其實很簡單我也可以來協助那我很希望說一樣我們有一個示範點我們就開始來做因為我們是在跟時間賽跑我們現在還有老師學校的老師正式的教師還有辦法用自己的語言來進行雙語教學我希望至少我們來做"},{"start":7770.528,"end":7789.26,"text":"主委,您是臺灣族最多最多會講主語的老師,我們來做好不好?對,很好,我相信這個一定是賴總統非常棒的一個政績,那院長希望您一起來支持好不好?好,謝謝院長,謝謝主委好,謝謝吳委員骰帶的質詢"},{"start":7799.308,"end":7804.414,"text":"也謝謝卓院長。報告院會休息15分鐘,休息之後繼續質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":8710.97,"end":8721.934,"text":"報告院會現在繼續開會報告院會我們現在議場二樓旁聽席的是港湖家長會的會長們我們在此表達對他們的歡迎現在繼續開會請林委員國程質詢"},{"start":8760.782,"end":8786.541,"text":"好,謝謝主席。請行政院左院長,內政部劉部長備詢。您委員好。好,院長部長,我想辛苦了齁。不會。但是我特別一定要去強調,"},{"start":8788.117,"end":8811.456,"text":"本黨一向是秉持理性、務實、科學所以請你放心我不會吵架但是有一點我希望本席提出來的問題我們就會即時來對白我想院長當然一公一私我個人是尊重的"},{"start":8812.366,"end":8832.802,"text":"但是我也希望部長針對問題的時候特別要針對問題來回答本席因為我也第一個不吵架第二個針對問題所以我們是務實來對白謝謝委員其實我覺得質詢就像一面鏡子你看到的我就跟我看到的你一樣院長"},{"start":8834.36,"end":8855.254,"text":"我要你看一下我們全國你的八萬大金也就是警察的形象在這十年來喔所有公務人員當中形象最好的是警察完全被老百姓所承認"},{"start":8856.345,"end":8875.674,"text":"所以這個數據我就希望部長跟希望院長可以去看一下各類的公務人員過去警察是倒數的可是這10年來你們確確實實對警察的形象確實給老百姓"},{"start":8876.734,"end":8888.119,"text":"過去是又愛又恨很討厭警察但是又很需要警察但是現在是倒過來每一件事情都需要警察所以"},{"start":8888.899,"end":8918.122,"text":"第一個我還是要肯定行政院跟內政部對於這個部分的努力但是我今天要跟院長跟部長來探討的就是警察形象雖好但是他的心酸瞎人知所以這個我今天借重這次的執行要讓院長跟部長去了解他們的酸甜苦辣"},{"start":8919.591,"end":8938.445,"text":"所以院長或許你管不到這裡但是你一定要督導警察自強爭奪這個問題非常嚴重一定原因何在那計103年到112年他的統計總共有52個警員自強平均每一年5個"},{"start":8948.888,"end":8962.839,"text":"但是從一月份到現在我們警察治強已經8個這代表什麼?這代表雖然我們形象好但是在這個部分確確實實為什麼會治強這個部分會"},{"start":8969.905,"end":8995.392,"text":"所以院長這個是值得啊因為是你的八萬大軍其實臺灣很多的治安通通都是警察他貢獻良多你們只是做政策引導但是在這裡為什麼平均都五個現在一月到六月已經八個院長你知道什麼原因嗎"},{"start":8998.991,"end":9013.08,"text":"應該工作的壓力、家庭的因素甚至有經濟的考量等等還有個人對自己工作上未來的一些機會、升先都是造成他工作的壓力我想對員警我們都是非常的關懷"},{"start":9014.201,"end":9015.022,"text":"你也是從基層上來部長還是從基層上來"},{"start":9042.25,"end":9062.76,"text":"本席也是從基層上來,有時候看到警察他們的辛酸事,不是他們不做,而是他們的工作環雜已經到他們心靈無法承擔。來,一定,來,其實我為什麼今天要跟你探討這個問題,其實沒事發生,"},{"start":9066.994,"end":9088.085,"text":"院長只有講對一半每一次事情自強的發生都是調查起來只有三種一、經濟 二、家庭因素 三、暫停 感情 四所以 一定 不定 感覺好像七三行而已啊 不是欸 不是"},{"start":9088.669,"end":9117.648,"text":"所以我在這裡特別要院長去關心要部長去重視這個是非常重要的因為五個每年五個現在一月到六月已經八個那這個原因為什麼當然我們也承認新的警政署長張署長他一上任他從基層上來他就取消十幾項不必要的評評"},{"start":9119.63,"end":9146.189,"text":"這個也是一個減薪所以我希望院長在督導在關心部長在執行的時候要把這個放為重點是為什麼他會自強一個人的生命是可貴的那為什麼他會這樣他沒有辦法就像院長所講的精神壓力生命已經受到非常嚴重的沉重壓力"},{"start":9147.17,"end":9167.13,"text":"不管是家庭也好不管是工作也好但是你們的報告裡面都是經濟家庭感情這一點只有答對一半工作壓力也有可能所以我要今天最主要是要跟院長提醒你要去重視這個問題那部長"},{"start":9169.471,"end":9169.491,"text":"拜託!"},{"start":9192.671,"end":9217.063,"text":"我要傾聽部長,你針對這個要不要重視?我想您的觀察非常的正確,因為你本來就是非常關心警消的權益。在我上任之後,還有包括我們張榮興署長上任之後,真的是取消不必要的評比,減輕他們在工作上面不必要的壓力。我們都知道社會變遷確實造成很多多元的不同的壓力的來源,我想每一個行業都會有。"},{"start":9217.603,"end":9243.674,"text":"但是對我們警察同仁我們把他當成自己的兄弟姐妹所以呢我知道我們現在有關於心理這個輔導的機制只有80萬的時候我非常的訝異我今年已經提高到300萬明年希望提高到500萬而且不是所謂的只有內部裡面的什麼關老師這些我希望他們去找大醫院的這些身心健康的科的這個醫師可以用助診的方式可以用協助的方式而且去散佈在"},{"start":9244.474,"end":9244.994,"text":"你發現到這個問題我要拜託院長"},{"start":9274.349,"end":9288.102,"text":"真的你要支持內政部真的一定要去支持為什麼根據這些資料根據這些資料也就說全國防止自殺防止中心他的推估"},{"start":9288.908,"end":9289.028,"text":"律師律師"},{"start":9309.318,"end":9333.112,"text":"不夠的因為有一萬多個一萬多個我們可以去看看國外的警察他雖然他的業務繁重但是他是有業餘輔導時間喔所以這個就跟心靈有關係所以我要拜託在這個部分院長你要把他當成不要以為嚴謹一個字自強"},{"start":9334.153,"end":9359.487,"text":"是一個小事錯真的是一個大事那更何況為什麼我會提出這個執行最主要的原因是因為警察在這裡都沒有人替他發聲所以我要拜託院長在這個部分一萬多個需要去執行現在變成我們都沒有專業的人員你要用局長用隊長用長官去做這些輔導"},{"start":9360.427,"end":9360.587,"text":"一、六）"},{"start":9381.264,"end":9409.765,"text":"我提出這個問題都沒有政治性的問題是你們自己的警察的這些人命關天的問題也讓警察覺得是在這個警察家庭裡面他是第一個雖然出勤但是他是受保障他是受關懷所以在這個部分部長真的是比較缺乏因為你們兩位也剛上任所以在這個部分長官非常重要如果在這個預算可以多撥一點"},{"start":9411.088,"end":9426.52,"text":"災害就會少一點所以我看今年尤其今年已經8件了8件了也有新的也有長官也有什麼所以這些東西不要粉飾太平的心態真的要正視這個問題我本席在這裡要建議第一個擴大這個部分的預算第二個輔導要有專業化"},{"start":9438.289,"end":9452.536,"text":"我不是自己長官啊他來輔導這個效果我們沒有朝這個方向那另外就是要做一個長期研究為什麼會這樣最後一個就是我們的工作能夠減少就減少"},{"start":9453.977,"end":9479.979,"text":"當然也不是說什麼都不做最起碼的話不必要的評比能撿就撿我相信現在的張署長他也很願意去聽這些事所以在這裡本期特別拜託院長多支持內政部拜託部長你要多關心我們這個前國的警察這個部分好不好報告委員剛剛部長講的那個我們擴大預算或增加諮詢機構的事情我會請部長"},{"start":9483.175,"end":9497.184,"text":"請署長、各縣市的局長、分局長一直落職到基層下去,一定要完全來注意到這個事情。 是啦,鄉議員長你現在就很好啊,到拍手去慰問慰問,這個會鼓舞士氣啊,這個做法是對的。"},{"start":9497.844,"end":9498.704,"text":"好不好?"},{"start":9498.704,"end":9524.714,"text":"過去很少那個行政院長很少去關心警政的問題但是雖然這是很重要但是院長只要是一個好聽話鼓舞我們的士氣這是很重要的我不是警戒但是我認為看到警察這樣是真的有必要有必要院長這裡支持部長這裡去關懷好不好?"},{"start":9524.714,"end":9525.795,"text":"好那另外一個"},{"start":9526.835,"end":9547.423,"text":"我利用這個小小的時間特別來跟部長研究臺北市中山區大灣北旦這個案子其實這個案子我要替這些住民跟院長投訴跟部長投訴"},{"start":9549.037,"end":9566.938,"text":"這個不要變成這個歷史的共業啦,其實這是過去的政府他們的規劃不當而造成老百姓繼承事實的歷史共業,所以在這個部分有沒有可能據我了解"},{"start":9567.719,"end":9596.13,"text":"好 你說過去是柯文哲想要做 現在蔣萬安主要做 但是我們不要有政黨色彩嘛我跟你講老百姓也是你卓院長的子民啊 所以在這個部分有沒有好好的拜託部長拜託院長 不要有政治思考能不能在這個部分 因為善意的第三者是大灣北段的祝福"},{"start":9596.834,"end":9614.559,"text":"他要接受滑單他要接受這些折磨所以院長能不能在你的任內請我們劉部長在這個部分也就是我們內政部的國土署在審這個預算的時候不要有顏色只要問題來解決"},{"start":9615.999,"end":9632.854,"text":"我也建議真的能夠中央跟地方把這個問題解決是老百姓受益所以這個部分部長我相信你也剛來但是沒有人送案子退案子已經將近四年"},{"start":9633.554,"end":9646.06,"text":"這是對臺北市大灣北段大直地區有1800多戶的這些住戶非常不公平,非常不公平是前任政府的錯誤來解決問題應該是在卓內閣卓院長的領導之下把這個問題來解決"},{"start":9652.563,"end":9682.003,"text":"那至於法令哪邊要怎麼做,中央政府跟地方政府要好好商討,把這個問題解決掉,因為為什麼?受益的是老百姓,好,受益的老百姓。 院長,這個事情本席已經跟你請命,那我也要拜託部長你把它當成這是一件事,所以希望我們中央政府跟地方政府好好的去商討,把一個圓滿把它解決,一六。"},{"start":9682.863,"end":9703.329,"text":"我希望老百姓就是老百姓好不好這個拜託院長拜託部長一下"},{"start":9711.39,"end":9717.124,"text":"好,謝謝林委員。謝謝院長。下一位,我們請陳盈委員質詢。"},{"start":9741.389,"end":9751.418,"text":"麻煩請院長以及園民會主委我們請左院長備詢還有園民會主委備詢三國元豪"},{"start":9760.11,"end":9783.884,"text":"院長好,主委好。那在這個禁法補償,我們就是說目前禁法補償的這些面積呢,截至目前為止統計大概有7萬多公頃。其實這些土地呢,有很多其實是可以再進行其他的這個林業以及農業的利用。而且這些林業與農業的這個發展利用的價值呢,"},{"start":9789.527,"end":9803.498,"text":"很有可能其實是高於這個禁法補償的金額。 所以我特別以這個作為開場白是因為在我們這次禁法補償的修法之後大家又開始重視來討論這個林業經濟的這個問題。"},{"start":9807.621,"end":9814.671,"text":"原住民的土地很多是在森林區,過去行政部會常常有提到零下經濟外還有林業經濟的問題,我們今天就要來談一談林業經濟。"},{"start":9821.479,"end":9839.379,"text":"可是呢在這個民國78年全面禁止采伐天然林之後呢加上民國80年的臺灣森林經營管理的方案政府已經倡導二三十年不砍樹那但是呢這完全不砍樹是真的是好事嗎"},{"start":9840.874,"end":9861.14,"text":"我們有這個新的省思那林業署署長林華慶在2017年就曾經發表文章表示人工林的部分應該要適度的砍伐那過去那麼久的時間不砍樹導致我們林業的技術人才凋零那整個林業市場是萎縮的"},{"start":9862.461,"end":9885.883,"text":"臺灣現在林木的自給率只剩下百分之一點多所以林業署在兩年前有提出希望發展國產財的施政目標在2027年希望國內自給率可以達到百分之五在原住民保留地有相當的面積其實都是竹林"},{"start":9887.264,"end":9913.335,"text":"竹子其實它有100多種用途是相當好的相當棒的一個植物那竹子的部分呢林業署在兩年前呢它有推動這個新興竹產的新興竹產業發展計畫的這個10年中長城計畫就是希望發展臺灣的林業經濟所以森林完全不砍伐對森林的健康"},{"start":9916.476,"end":9939.005,"text":"當然前面的這個十年的這個中長城計畫其實對原住民是相當有幫助的因為畢竟我剛剛有提過我們其實元寶地很多相當的面積其實都是竹林所以我希望這個發展國產財不要再只是農業部的一個目標而已我們應該要有具體的規劃而且不單單只是主產業而已"},{"start":9940.365,"end":9964.202,"text":"希望說有個這個中長城的計畫振興整個林業經濟的市場我們開闢這個市場的需求提升相關的技術然後再結合這個森林的固碳造林獎勵還有淨法補償等等這些政策才能打造林業經濟再生產加工還有這個市場整個完整的一個產業鏈"},{"start":9965.723,"end":9966.824,"text":"（6月25日（三、6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（"},{"start":9981.034,"end":9986.035,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":10006.499,"end":10009.283,"text":"（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":10022.7,"end":10043.711,"text":"因為只有農業部有這個專業可以來協助發展林業市場來提高這個林業技術那我想請教院長是不是我們今天在這邊可以請這個農業部好好來會同這個園民會來支持我這個想法然後提出一個期程一個看什麼樣的計畫"},{"start":10044.711,"end":10059.186,"text":"我先報告一下委員,我想這個非常謝謝委員的指教那我目前正在跟農業部就這個剛才講這個方面是不是在林下經濟還有一些森林保育方面我們多做一些努力"},{"start":10059.887,"end":10060.487,"text":"８三、6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。８"},{"start":10082.077,"end":10106.35,"text":"我有提案但是呢我更希望在我們既有的補助之下額外在有限可以利用的部分土地之內我們額外再創造更多的經濟價值讓族人有更好的收入這是我的用意是那接下來呢我另外也要請這個內政部部長上台"},{"start":10108.453,"end":10118.491,"text":"相信院長在過去有去過好幾次的園鄉部落。 那我們最近一次我們也去了秀林鄉也去了新城鄉。"},{"start":10121.055,"end":10144.286,"text":"抱歉主委您可能也要留步一下雖然主要要問內政部但也請原民會主委這個問題要留意聽我們原鄉部落的生活其實非常純樸相當可愛經濟模式也相對單純在部落裡如果你穿梭在這個部落當中"},{"start":10145.126,"end":10162.232,"text":"每幾乎每一個部落你一定會看到小吃部啦麵攤啊特別小吃部還有那個10元的那個頭10元硬幣的那個卡OK吼那還有這個雜貨店吶吼那其實這個就是原鄉一個小小很可愛的經濟模式"},{"start":10163.112,"end":10190.787,"text":"院長你們千萬不要小看這個部落的小吃麵店因為這個麵店他可能照顧了就是長期在外工作的父母長期在外工作的這個但是孩子留在部落那放學回家沒有家長照顧他可能就會先去麵店吃晚餐那當然卡拉OK這更是我們不可或缺很重要的小吃部裡面一定都會有卡拉OK那這個卡拉OK"},{"start":10191.227,"end":10218.295,"text":"他竄起族人之間的這個情感但是更重要了他也舒緩了我們在工作所面臨的壓力還有委屈所以在這樣的一個可愛的原鄉的經濟模式呢在我們國土計劃法通過之後依照第11條的規定應該要照原基法第21條的規定定定了這個原住民族土地及海域管制規定"},{"start":10219.335,"end":10232.5,"text":"凡在105年5月1日前已經存在的建物,未來國土計劃法上路之後,土地都將變成了建築用地。解決原鄉長期建地不足的問題,"},{"start":10236.429,"end":10254.054,"text":"雖然說可以變成建地的目前只有限制在這個居住使用所以這些單純經營麵攤小吃店的原住民他們這些小店面可能就只是在"},{"start":10255.094,"end":10256.115,"text":"根據6月13日立法院內政委員會的報告,"},{"start":10273.792,"end":10288.164,"text":"賴清德總統2024年的競選政見總統希望尊重並依照原住民族的生活模式去制定原住民族土地使用的管制規則所謂的生活模式絕對不是只有居住這麼狹隘"},{"start":10289.725,"end":10313.204,"text":"當然包括我們原住民的文化更包括了我們原住民的經濟活動而且呢原住民的這個經濟活動呢不是只是停留在過去的狩獵採集而已剛剛我講的那些小吃店麵攤等等就是我們原鄉每個部落都會有的一個經濟模式那接下來呢"},{"start":10314.024,"end":10337.511,"text":"希望內政部跟原民會在討論原住民族土地使用管制規則的時候不要把這些純營業處所把它漏掉了這個相當重要讓這些土地能夠合法化讓它可以變成建築用地希望院長是不是可以來幫我們解決這個問題"},{"start":10339.093,"end":10350.162,"text":"好謝謝委員剛剛您說的這個麵攤小吃店雜貨店都很可能是我們政府在偏鄉地區還沒有觸及到的一些社會安全網的一環"},{"start":10351.24,"end":10351.9,"text":"（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":10378.588,"end":10405.34,"text":"原民會跟內政部將來都必須做跨部會的很多的聯繫所以接下來就是說原民會跟內政部在討論這些土地管制規則的時候呢也希望部長內政部長這邊可以多多幫忙幫我們來解決這些問題而不是就是說讓新的規劃消滅了部落族人的生計還有快樂的這個共同回憶那我做這樣子的請求"},{"start":10407.542,"end":10434.78,"text":"請部長回座我接下來就是說現在最後一個問題其實院長今天這個問題是我在這邊質詢的第四次那從這個兩年多前我就開始在推動這個政策已經歷經三位行政院長我希望這件事情可以在卓院長的手中完成畫下完美的據點就差您這麼臨門一腳"},{"start":10437.361,"end":10462.114,"text":"政府在歸還原住民土地的政策上有不斷的滾動檢討但是因為政府的規定限制了原保地的流通性導致我們就算有這個具有高經濟價值的原保地銀行仍不願意把我們的原保地視為一個擔保品所以我一直不斷的努力了非常久終於我們協調出一個完整的規劃"},{"start":10463.234,"end":10473.713,"text":"那請教一下圓明會這個規劃呢要請你們研擬這個貸款要點到底什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":10475.092,"end":10494.487,"text":"還需要你們還需要多久的時間謝謝謝謝委員我們在7月底應該就可以整個來把它就是說這個協商會議就是在一個月左右嗎是是是那因為報告院長這個不是找主委的麻煩不是他的錯啦因為這是我其實在"},{"start":10495.588,"end":10495.608,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":10514.628,"end":10530.687,"text":"好,那今天那個在院長面前也做了這樣子的宣誓,我們要點7月底一定要申出來。好,再來,這個有必要再跟金融單位去處理一下,因為他們現在對於這個移產對象的限定,"},{"start":10531.528,"end":10547.163,"text":"以及市場價值的認定這兩個還是溫婕是所在我會請原民會跟我們金融單位能夠就這兩個貞潔來做比較有效率的因為其實當然一開始大家會有很多的疑慮跟考量"},{"start":10547.904,"end":10562.47,"text":"但是就是說因為這樣一個政策性的貸款在受信的過程其實他是完全依照這個銀行的機制所以儘管會他們是同意的那財政部呢也是支持的現在唯一差"},{"start":10563.75,"end":10587.635,"text":"一個單位就是這個公股銀行點頭承辦那在整個這個協調的這個過程其實臺銀都有參與那臺銀截至目前為止他們當然仍然維持一個不置可否只說可不可以多幾間銀行一起來承辦這句話透露了一個玄機表示他們不是不能辦而且還可以大家一起來辦"},{"start":10588.695,"end":10609.408,"text":"那只是說我覺得說這個公股銀行在配合政府政策之下應該要勇於認識當然我們現在因為現在所有的配套所有規定我們都規劃好了那但是就是說我們當然一個事辦現在是從事辦開始做所以我們找一家嘛沒有一下子找八家嘛因為萬一"},{"start":10610.288,"end":10627.433,"text":"大家都不願意好好試試看直接八家聯合說全部不行這樣我也是不樂於看到所以我們還是拜託台銀那今天就是說請院長開個金口是不是都已經在規劃好的前提那院長才是我們就從台銀開始承接這個業務"},{"start":10629.269,"end":10655.321,"text":"我會請主委積極的聯絡來關注來協助因為原民會他沒有辦法所以在經過長期的協調我只是在這邊特別再請這個院長可以出面開個金口這不然可能又下一次我又質詢說您是第4位第4任的這個院長了我想這件事情真的就是差台銀這個部分那我們就"},{"start":10656.641,"end":10663.385,"text":"來示範一下吧,因為就從一間開始示範嘛。我們會來溝通來處理。好,謝謝院長。謝謝。謝謝委員。好,謝謝陳委員。好,謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"},{"start":10683.243,"end":10709.503,"text":"現在主席我想請卓院長還有內政部劉部長卓院長還有劉部長請備詢黃委員好部長好跟院長好我想今天很重要的是我想我看到了卓院長昨天針對新清安貸款開了一個內部的會議是嗎是的"},{"start":10710.834,"end":10732.162,"text":"您上任大概一個月左右的時間,新青安貸款其實從去年8月到現在,他在我2月1號上任之後就一直在問這件事情。但是我很遺憾,當時不知道是不是因為看守內閣的關係,所以他們認為說新青安貸款沒有任何問題,而且不影響房市,因為佔的比例很小。院長,那你昨天為什麼要開會?"},{"start":10733.407,"end":10750.1,"text":"第一個信心跟貸款的補貼原意是非常好的幫助年輕人需要房子的人而且經過這段執行下來房價的高漲絕非是單一的元素這個我們都知道"},{"start":10751.021,"end":10773.013,"text":"但是我們想說如果能夠排除一些現在心理的作用那也許從某些角度來看對政治的調整可以了解。所以院長我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題那這個問題在哪裡因為我們來自民間所以我大概簡單講今年5月交易動數達到2萬6千多而且這是10年來的新高所以跟我說沒有跟房市"},{"start":10775.53,"end":10801.893,"text":"吹房市長這是不可能的。（6月25日之前財政部說因為他佔的比例少但是我現在要告訴你說星星之火已經燎原。（6月25日這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重。（6月25日為什麼現在的年輕人應該是某個媒體下了一個註解當政府一直打房一直希望能夠搞居住正義通過平均地點條例要打房但是打不過就加入他。（6月25日"},{"start":10802.854,"end":10826.16,"text":"讓年輕人買房子就成為討好年輕人的選票的方法。 這不是我講的,是一個媒體給現在的政府下的主張。﹖政策不是這樣的利益﹖利益原始不是這樣的﹖是,原來都不是,但是最後變成這樣。 現在的狀況就是,年輕人變成人頭。 我們大概看到的幾個問題,第一個,內政部、財政部、公益股銀行,他們的分工很清楚。 內政部給錢。"},{"start":10828.263,"end":10849.975,"text":"財政部定辦法交給公股銀行去租但是過程裡面沒有互相監控或者是互相瞭解對方的分工我這邊要跟院長直接說現在的問題就是新青安的年輕人第一他有非常多的銀行的話術告訴他不用把租金交給"},{"start":10850.845,"end":10850.925,"text":"（6月25日（"},{"start":10871.434,"end":10897.475,"text":"院長這已經是不管是銀行業者重建業者還有所有的新的建商都在做一樣的事情第二個最嚴重的問題是這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況但是還是繼續投下去我們擔心寬卸期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始您覺得呢部分在市場上的一些"},{"start":10898.73,"end":10918.128,"text":"不動產的專家也看到了諸如此類的問題,讓我們一起各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的經濟,那這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事,我今天請部長上來,就是發現一個很嚴重的問題,其實他們在貸款之前要求這個要自主,"},{"start":10918.68,"end":10922.021,"text":"我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候他們說有可能因為他們沒有勾結"},{"start":10946.107,"end":10972.9,"text":"部長,你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶,有沒有跟新清安貸款做勾結,開始做了沒?我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前,確實發現這個缺點。是,他拿著租金補貼還拿著新清安貸款,所以我們為了要勾結,勾結出來的話可能會把他踢出新清安貸款。這就是我二月份問的事情,那時候發現這個問題,然後現在你們的方法是這樣,但是我現在看到比較好笑的是,又來了,"},{"start":10974.08,"end":10978.825,"text":"宮古宇航說我要開始讓他們寫切結。 院長你覺得切結有用嗎?"},{"start":10978.825,"end":10979.926,"text":"內容是什麼?"},{"start":10979.926,"end":10983.33,"text":"切結就是說我保證我自助。 如果不是自助我就怎樣怎樣?"},{"start":10983.33,"end":10995.041,"text":"將來可以避免在如果真正嚴重到需要進行法律的時候在這個糾紛當中訴訟當中也許切結出是一個有效的依據。 切結有效現在就簽了但是沒有人查切結就是無效。"},{"start":10995.862,"end":11018.632,"text":"所以剛剛部長說的,勾結很重要。第二個,你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶,你還有包租代管戶,這些都是你可以直接勾結的對象。所以財政部不要再跟我說,工股銀行寫的切結就沒事了,現在要開始做這件事。第三個,這個問題就在於我們回到了,我們現在是不是居住正義做一半。"},{"start":11019.793,"end":11046.734,"text":"因為我們現在住宅法很清楚很可愛說因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人所以讓大家你的齁租金補貼我不會把你拿去做所得稅的集合但是現在至少可以做新清安的查核吧﹖是﹖可以吧﹖可以第二個就是因為如此所以我們的政府是不是姑息或者是我們政府姑息大家希望大家不要來報稅所以房東現在都不報稅"},{"start":11048.894,"end":11059.072,"text":"大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事第一件,不准設戶口第二件,不准報稅第三件,不准去領租金補貼"},{"start":11060.523,"end":11082.028,"text":"劉副長,我上次在委員會的時候,你也承認目前的困境就是如此,對吧?是,但是我們後來有做一下檢討改進,包括你所說的不是只有租屋補貼,還有包括包租代管的業者,他們我要找他來商量,就是說未來要把他所謂的租金對外披露,至少資訊的揭露的話是可以根本知道,需要先處理。"},{"start":11082.748,"end":11102.598,"text":"我現在要跟院長說的就是臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方因為我們大家都希望有自己的房子有了自己的房子租出去就希望當包租公但不想繳稅所以房租黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年這個狀況我們目前為止在相關內政部的統計我們大概是有98萬戶的成租人"},{"start":11105.748,"end":11130.027,"text":"大概總人口大概是260萬人如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的其實我們全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族也就是租房子過日子的人這300萬人他們能夠所謂申請到租金補貼的其實還是只是少部分如果沒有300萬人可是我們只有51萬人"},{"start":11131.392,"end":11147.323,"text":"租金補貼還是有他必須要的條件我同意但是我的意思是說很多人還是拿不到租金補貼尤其是學生但是我們現在已經掌握到了大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分我們有這麼多51萬筆是租金補貼有8萬戶是包租貸款這些有沒有做所謂的租務實價登錄"},{"start":11156.874,"end":11183.579,"text":"目前為主我們大概會要用勾結的方式來處理。（對,所以還是一樣（那個黃委員我想都知道（如果我們要做資訊揭露的話（我們還是要依照法令上（否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法（所以我們現在在4月19號的時候呢（已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議（那我們所根據的法源就是所謂的租賃市場（租賃住宅市場（沒關係你要有法源還可以再幫你加一條法源啊（"},{"start":11184.039,"end":11184.059,"text":"委員長．"},{"start":11215.141,"end":11232.496,"text":"臺灣是租屋黑市還是占一大半的地方有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學他可能永遠不可能去申請而且他可能只租了幾年這幾年就是我們現在大家看不到的地方租屋是黑市所以他就藏在陰影裡面"},{"start":11233.447,"end":11259.244,"text":"然後不准你報這個不准你報那個他也享受不到他所居住城市的社會福利因為他永遠沒辦法入戶口這個問題我認為只要先把租實價登錄的制度慢慢的建立我沒有要求你一下子建立你租金補貼的對象可以拿來做實價登錄你包代管業者也可以做實價登錄接下來才是要求一般"},{"start":11260.731,"end":11283.283,"text":"防東將來如果實價登錄我們給他什麼樣子的租稅的赦免也許是一個方式我沒有定見我希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進部長可以吧至少你上任之後我相信你一定有這個野心是謝謝黃委員的關心我剛有提到先把資訊透明化是把它做到那一定要有一定的法源資料都在你手上"},{"start":11284.023,"end":11306.524,"text":"怎麼法院讓他能夠至少看一看,是,所以要立法,所以要訂出相關的規範。我沒有意見,我的意思是說,我希望一個月之內,針對這些您剛剛所說的方案,也可以給我一個書面的回應。可不可以多給我們一點時間,因為一個月之內的話,我們院會還不開。好,兩個月,至少下個會期前,我會再問同樣的問題。"},{"start":11308.366,"end":11325.256,"text":"接下來其實我們今天大家都很關心警消我今天要問的是人力的問題院長我們大家都從地方來我們大概都知道警消的業務很重然後今年你看一年半以來已經有八個殉職的警消了"},{"start":11326.093,"end":11352.783,"text":"這八個遜職的錦霄每一次發生事情我們就開始檢討但是我們檢討完畢之後發現其實有很多很多的問題裝備也好訓練也好那其實還有很大的問題是人力不足這個人力不足目前為止之前也做過非常多的檢討然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠我人不夠人為什麼不夠各位可以看到"},{"start":11353.715,"end":11366.825,"text":"我們在107年就做了一個檢討。我們在112年要達到一比一千三,現在是113年,請問部長你達到了沒有?沒有,原因是什麼?"},{"start":11367.923,"end":11391.35,"text":"我們在補足這個消防人力尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。速度太慢不是比較慢是很慢因為1300是一個基本的標準117年要到1100但是院長我現在要跟你直接說從國際的標準這個還是差的不行日本1比760韓國1比774新加坡多一點1比925"},{"start":11397.15,"end":11415.928,"text":"只有我們現在還在1300 這個比例不要說我們跟其他的城市旁邊你一定的先進國家我們不應該輸給他加上我們少子化高齡化將來的消防更是重要重中之重所以這個比例你可以看得出來很特別"},{"start":11418.443,"end":11441.403,"text":"這個六都也很懸殊。不知道為什麼,大概只有臺北跟桃園還在1300多,其他都是1500以上。部長,什麼時候做得到?113年沒做到,你什麼時候要做到?我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分,因為我們要補足這個專業的消防能力。 我知道,所以我們希望能夠盡量在至少一年之內1300先到吧。"},{"start":11442.998,"end":11467.27,"text":"我們盡量朝這個方向來努力,因為他必須要經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力。 我知道,這就是問題是我們是不是要在人力禁用的過程中再增加一些彈性,或者是再增加一些訓練的方式,讓他有人力補足的機會。 黃委員講得非常正確,我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商,未來再進行考試的時候,所以其實很多人想考都考不上。"},{"start":11468.971,"end":11468.991,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11486.238,"end":11506.958,"text":"我始終認為這是一個文明的指標,我會請內政部全力去做,我們那天到新竹看罹難的這個警消,我們就跟他講說考用制度必須要嚴格的再做一個檢討,讓更多的人能夠投入。最後我要問這個問題,這個大概也是我最重要的一個問題。"},{"start":11508.407,"end":11536.815,"text":"院長你當過臺北市的立委你對社子島應該還比我還熟悉那最重要的是我們已經在4年內完成了非常多的程序短短4年107年我們完成了西部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部甚至二階段環評但是所謂的開發範圍跟底價地的比例從109年6月送到中央內政部到今天為止4年了還沒審上個禮拜開過一次"},{"start":11538.098,"end":11560.288,"text":"說明會,然後也有很多人來抗議,我都領先,我的意思是說部長,四年了不能再拖了,其他的程序沒有人超過跑四年,民國59年到現在限制開發,我58年次,所以他已經54年了,多久?還要等多久?還要等多久?我只想問部長這個問題。"},{"start":11561.408,"end":11579.928,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關心,我們上個禮拜開會的時候確實的要求臺北市政府啊,臺北市政府已經溝通溝通再溝通,現在98%的民眾同意,剩下2%可能有意見,你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下,但是剔除的範圍也都已經跟報部也都說明了。"},{"start":11580.816,"end":11602.954,"text":"部長,我希望要溝通可以多少時間?再給我們一點時間,像比如說我也要拜訪臺北市長。我再問你一個,你會不會像林佑昌一樣,又開始說我要弄輕軌弄這個弄那個,然後把這個案子耽誤?我了解都市計畫的審議程序,所以我要跟國會報告。那你不會再像林佑昌說又跑去跟人家講東講西,然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過嗎?到目前為止我沒有講東講西啊。"},{"start":11613.88,"end":11631.17,"text":"謝謝黃委員謝謝卓院長八院會現在在議場二樓的貴賓是澳洲新南威爾斯州議會的代表團我們在此掌聲歡迎接下來我們請張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":11655.438,"end":11667.063,"text":"好,謝謝主席、各位委員、各位官員、大家午安。 是不是有請這個行政院卓院長還有我們內政部、我們劉部長,謝謝。請卓院長還有劉部長備詢。張委員好。"},{"start":11675.796,"end":11691.647,"text":"好,院長好,又見面了,一個禮拜見兩次,還是要首先,這是非常辛苦,這兩個禮拜非常辛苦。好,那我要首先跟院長報告,這個院長我是來自新北中和,那新北市是一個很特別的城市,幅員廣大,有400多萬人。"},{"start":11692.828,"end":11710.031,"text":"中和也是一個非常有人文特色的一個城市我們中和有40萬人中和就佔了新北市十分之一的人口可是它的面積大概只有新北市的百分之一所以它是地狹人稠"},{"start":11711.132,"end":11735.783,"text":"未來還是要拜託這個院長跟部長有關於新北市的建設以及交通問題要拜託院長跟部長多多來關心那第一個我還是要拜託院長的部分新北市中和過去長期以來有很多一些建設緩慢的一個部分要拜託院長來協助尤其我相信那個部長當時李永昌部長也非常答應我就是說我們這個中和有40多萬人"},{"start":11736.323,"end":11758.198,"text":"那從這個污水下水道我們所有民眾非常關心的從9393年開始建設污水下水道到現在113年我們這個南四角地區有10萬的鄉親目前還沒有連接污水下水道所以從這個林後昌部長到現在劉部長我也要拜託這個我們現在已經積極努力來興建污水下水道"},{"start":11758.678,"end":11778.232,"text":"那比較可惜的是這個是中央跟地方一起來合作﹖過去是由這個內政部來主導來興建那現在是請委託新北市水利局來整個來發包然後由內政部來出錢來協助可是現在因為中央地方我希望第一個還是要溝通的清楚因為本來發包的時間是在這個在113年6月"},{"start":11781.034,"end":11808.867,"text":"也是這個月可是可能現在會延長到113年的7月那總共分第三階段分4個時期的標案整個標案的時間可能會長達10年才能完工所以這個我很難跟我們綜合區的鄉親來交代所以我現在一直積極努力來去讓他的速度來去加快去做推動那現在目前來講大家可以看到這個圖我們的第一標第一標他是屬於這個"},{"start":11812.436,"end":11839.514,"text":"這個紅色的部分那當時我一開始的時候我就跟李厚昌部長講說第一標它的這個顏色、形狀怎麼很像斧頭一樣啊怎麼不跟這個第三標合在一起後來他們說委員不好意思你講得很對可是因為我們已經發包準備要發包了所以現在第一標就只能趕快來去承包了所以這才是造成整個所有的興建完成長達要十年的關係"},{"start":11840.535,"end":11864.785,"text":"那我希望說現在第一標現在已經延長到7月底才會發包那是不是二、三、四標我們可以一起來未來有機會一起來發包然後來讓整個時程現在未來現在聽說這個內政部跟水利局現在預計是7年可以完工請問一下這個部長跟院長有沒有信心可以在7年內完工"},{"start":11865.633,"end":11891.09,"text":"報告委員我想你非常了解這個污水下水道系統要建設的時候其實要跟居民做很好的溝通因為要挖路也許要牽涉到住宅區裡面可能要有一些翻洞所以為什麼時間拉長主要應該不是工程的難度所以要整合的話我們大概會很尊重原來的新北市政府他們在協調你要分三期或是三期要一起推動因為這個案子我們工程經費總共73億那中央已經答應補助60億所以原則上這樣子的規劃並沒有改變"},{"start":11895.353,"end":11923.539,"text":"那如果你時程要縮短的話,假設工期可以配得上地方居民或者新北市的進度的話,我們願意來努力配合。好,這一點我覺得相當重要,因為南市角剛剛講的這個地狹人稠有非常多的特色,比如說,院長不曉得你有沒有去杭羅爹,杭羅爹過?有嘛,去拜拜嘛,拜土地公。所以南市角有非常多的鄉親,有我們的杭羅爹,新南夜市,華新街,等等這些東西,真的居住非常多的人。"},{"start":11923.959,"end":11926.081,"text":"．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":11941.014,"end":11960.159,"text":"消防的問題我們都不希望說有這個火神的這個眼淚再度的發生那第二個也是講的我們過去中和缺乏剛剛第一個講到的是污水下水道第二個就是我們中和有四區可是我們的東邊的秀安區也住了10萬人可是秀安區長期以來就沒有消防分隊"},{"start":11960.979,"end":11962.741,"text":"（6月25日．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":11980.655,"end":11999.742,"text":"要出勤745次救護每年出勤8196次緊急救護出勤364次總共一年的出勤要高達9000多次讓我們南市分隊就是因為我們秀安區的消防分隊他過去一直缺乏"},{"start":12000.522,"end":12021.907,"text":"現在有個好消息就是我們現在這個在中和有個秀郎橋北側的重劃區他現在有規劃了一個消防分隊就是秀安消防分隊來服務10萬我們的中和鄉親不過他現在預計要蓋好的時程將近要5年以上所以還有5年的時間我們所有男士角的消防同仁會非常的辛苦"},{"start":12022.327,"end":12051.007,"text":"所以我們現在也提出來過去長期的一個想法就是我們在這個秀朗橋頭有一個現在的憲兵指揮中心那個地方可以來做一個臨時的消防分隊那我跟林德福委員其實有去會刊過了那現在目前因為現在那塊地是憲兵國防部在使用他們說只能提供兩年的時間給這個消防分隊來做可是剛剛跟這個院長跟部長報告過新的"},{"start":12051.767,"end":12075.992,"text":"消防分隊新的消防分局要5年才能蓋好所以是不是請院長跟部長你們是不是認為因為他那個國防是用來做人才招募的一個動作是不是兩位長官認為說消防救災的需求是不是高於這個國防部現在的需求你們是不是也贊成這樣的想法"},{"start":12076.052,"end":12087.803,"text":"感謝張委員的關心我馬上來協調因為這件事情非常的重要我們希望我們的消防同仁有一個暫時的安住所可以安心來服務我們秀山這個整個地區的人民"},{"start":12088.851,"end":12116.346,"text":"好,非常感謝。今天院長跟部長非常從善如流,非常感謝。請問兩個事情我們就大家一起積極來推動。那第三個其實也是我跟這個部長那時候來我辦公室大家來聊天拜訪的時候我跟部長講就是說社會住宅我相信是未來台灣大家積極推動的一個非常重要的這個政策。那中和現在從過去到現在以及在興建當中會有10個社會住宅"},{"start":12116.946,"end":12136.38,"text":"十個社會住宅我相信我們都希望說我們全民都來歡迎這個社會住宅到我們的所有的周邊可是我當時跟部長報告說社會住宅在設立的時候應該是要一個是友善的友善鄰居的一個措施所以拜託院長跟部長未來社宅未來有三個它的"},{"start":12138.121,"end":12163.891,"text":"這個設施應該要去做第一個友善我們所有的長輩長照日照要來新建第二個友善我們的所有小朋友所以托嬰托幼要來徵社第三個共享空間讓所有里民們都可以來使用或者是我們說的創客中心所以請教一下這個部長跟院長你們認為未來在建社宅的時候這三個這幾個東西是不是應該是要一個標配"},{"start":12165.291,"end":12178.888,"text":"讓所有我們的鄰居如果未來有需要蓋旁邊有蓋社會住宅的時候大家是歡迎社會住宅的而不是認為說社會住宅造成周邊的一些交通或是人口的堵塞你們未來有沒有考慮說設一個標準或一個計畫"},{"start":12182.788,"end":12198.214,"text":"讓這個社會住宅在蓋的時候會有一些配套的一些周邊的一些設施比如說剛剛講的這個長照日照中心、拖曳拖曳中心或者是一些共享空間或者是一些創客中心是不是應該頒布一個標準"},{"start":12199.626,"end":12225.115,"text":"報告委員我想我在這個辦公室裡面跟您說明非常清楚社宅的設立裡面的公共設施本來就是公益性必要性所以未來有社宅的時候包括你所說的長照拖曳或者是其他的跟公益性有關的話在社區同意的狀況之下一定會把它當成標配來處理那同時我們也會朝著未來的社宅如果有願意民間企業願意來協助的話我們也願意協助用住宅法的方式來幫忙"},{"start":12226.095,"end":12227.736,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間"},{"start":12243.459,"end":12265.038,"text":"好那請問一下部長未來是不是有一個設立的標準比如說為什麼這個社宅他就只有做日照長照有些就沒有有些有做拖音拖友有些就沒有沒有他是有一定的比例譬如說你有多高或是多大的比例上面有多大的評數的話就是按照他社宅設置的時候能夠提供多少公共空間那通常我們都會要求說地方政府必須要跟民意代表"},{"start":12265.458,"end":12268.303,"text":"（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":12279.619,"end":12299.645,"text":"好,就是希望說未來,就是剛剛部長講的,就第一個要傾聽民意嘛,然後第二個當然是需要說有一套標準,不然就是說有些人的想法跟意見可能就會沒有被聽到好不好,就是未來盡量設一個標準好不好,不然大家有些人就搶來搶去,也不一定是好事喔,好那第四個就是要請教就是"},{"start":12300.845,"end":12326.5,"text":"最近這個內政委員會有在調這個數位身份證的一個部分那數位身份證的部分我知道這個一直本席一直有在追這一塊那也請教我們的部長跟院長這個當時當然知道大家知道說調資料的時候有發現這個整份全黑的部分那我相信說這整份全黑的部分當然我們需要說未來的資料還是可以更加的透 公開透明"},{"start":12327.02,"end":12350.217,"text":"可是就是這個是過去這個我們賴清德當行政院長的一個這個政策那未來這個政策我們應該要怎麼去做因為大家都知道這個政策當時這個賴清德當這個院長的時候通過了這個是34億的一整個標案那也劃人民13億那當時因為這個行政院版3736的這個函"},{"start":12353.059,"end":12371.036,"text":"內容是說因為有大陸資安的一個問題所以是不是請教這個今天院長跟這個部長到底大陸資安問題未來能不能解決第二個相關的配套的法令是不是應該要來修比如說我們講的戶籍法或者是這個個人資訊安全法"},{"start":12371.696,"end":12393.627,"text":"這些等等的是不是應該要來修正那這樣不然的話本席其實在內政委員會我有一頭霧水如果這樣子不去做的話每年還要付高達6000多萬的維護費那這樣子的話每年都是浪費你的明年納稅錢所以今天是不是拜託不要有點時間拜託院長跟部長應該有做一些討論跟研究"},{"start":12394.127,"end":12394.307,"text":"麻煩部長"},{"start":12416.631,"end":12441.829,"text":"謝謝委員我想委員您大概數字上我稍微跟您更正一下不是14億是10.85億因為當時也牽涉到沒有執行的話那大概就是預算就不會執行下去然後那個我想大家都知道當時是在我們立法院裡面或是行政院有一個共識會覺得說資安問題嚴重嚴重的部分就是說我們很多個人的身份證裡面的資料的話可能會外洩那我們在委託外面的處理的時候也查查到說"},{"start":12443.143,"end":12459.636,"text":"外面的有一些法律諮詢顧問公司他可能也身兼在中國大陸有這些律師資格那時候我們就非常嚴格要求說要先查出來這樣有沒有問題那後來在執行的過程當中我們發現法令不足尤其是資安法令譬如說個人資料保護法還沒有出來"},{"start":12460.716,"end":12489.015,"text":"現在我們的檢討之後現在行政院已經有個人資料保護委員會再來就是相關資料的問題包括數位部他成立之後跟數位相關的這些資安的問題希望數位部可以協助把相關的這個資安的法律健全之後我們再來考慮要不要繼續推動再來就是所謂的調閱委員會我想委員非常知道調閱委員會經過兩次內政委員會來商量之後已經延到7月16"},{"start":12490.636,"end":12511.851,"text":"媒體上面都會說內政部遮影資料完全沒有應該是說我們在委託中央印製廠跟廠商他們的技術服務資料那由中央印製廠本於他們的權責來決定說這個是屬於個人資料保護法政府資訊公開法或者是商業法規裡面所說的商業法律由他們來做遮蔽那經過"},{"start":12513.152,"end":12513.553,"text":"好謝謝部長的解釋有時間的關係"},{"start":12529.552,"end":12544.03,"text":"那有沒有一個期程到底數位身份證因為上次你講的是因為資安問題不起應該是不考慮重啟那你現在的想法還是一樣嗎還是說你未來像已經了解這麼多了以後有沒有一個重啟的時間不然的話每年花6千多萬的這個維護費"},{"start":12544.991,"end":12559.769,"text":"因為我們社會上還沒有取得共識之前因為治安確實是一個很大的問題再加上委員看看最近的兩岸關係的狀況我覺得更要非常的謹慎來因應這個部分否則全台灣的人身份證的資料洩漏出去這個才是真正最大的國安問題"},{"start":12560.27,"end":12560.29,"text":"謝謝張委員"},{"start":12588.764,"end":12598.768,"text":"謝謝左院長。我們報告院會上午的質詢到此為止,下午1時50分處理臨時提案,下午2時30分繼續進行內政組質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":19212.489,"end":19222.397,"text":"報告院會現在繼續開會處理臨時提案每位委員發言時間一分鐘請廖委員先想發言"},{"start":19243.258,"end":19263.329,"text":"主席以及各位委員大家好那國營台鐵股份有限公司於民國104年至113年辦理臺鐵整體購置及貸換車輛計劃貸換超過最低使用年限之臺鐵列車然而自明年開始將會有300餘輛列車已遇最低使用年限116年開始高達700餘輛"},{"start":19266.451,"end":19288.593,"text":"都會打到最低使用年限但目前皆沒有相關汰除計畫考量到本期的購置及汰換車輛計畫耗時10年因此無論是提升搭乘體驗或是未來可能無零件汰換的情況影響到車輛檢修及行車安全皆有必要立即啟動新一期的購置及汰換車輛計畫"},{"start":19290.458,"end":19297.082,"text":"原此請國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司應於一個月之內啟動新一輪臺鐵整體購置及貸換車輛之評估計畫。 是否有當請公決案。"},{"start":19308.237,"end":19320.184,"text":"本院委員廖先祥等13人提案,作如下決議,含請行政院嚴處,請問院會有無異議,無異議通過。接下來請李委員驗秀發言。"},{"start":19327.694,"end":19328.034,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19348.68,"end":19353.041,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":19378.052,"end":19391.503,"text":"本院委員李燕秀等17人提案,作如下決議,含請行政院嚴處,請問院會有異議,無異議通過。下一位請王委員正續發言"},{"start":19411.129,"end":19429.262,"text":"好,謝謝主席。本院委員王振旭、莊瑞雄、吳立華等4人有鑒於學童勢力不良率偏高,為有效降低學童近視盛行率,原提案建請教育部召開跨部會研商會議並擬定具體方案以保障學童勢力。根據衛福部"},{"start":19429.861,"end":19451.729,"text":"調查結果近視正行率幼兒園大班為9%,國小六年級為70%,到了國中三年級高達89.3%,為達成勢力保健之具體目標原提案,建請教育部應召開會同會務部於本年8月前北東南東各分區召開延長會議,邀請地方政府"},{"start":19452.301,"end":19475.198,"text":"教育局、衛生局以及教師代表、家長代表必要時的加邀學生代表另外考量學童私立保健涉及醫療專業研商會議需邀請眼科專科醫師、眼光師等相關領域之團體代表及專家學者出席教育部應於本年9月會診提出相關之具體方案並落實至全國各級學校數位有當。 敬請公告。"},{"start":19480.302,"end":19495.748,"text":"本院委員王正旭等14人提案,作如下決議,含請行政院原署,請問院會有無異議,無異議通過。報告院會臨時提案均已處理完畢,下午2點30分繼續開會,進行內政組織質詢,現在休息。"},{"start":21595.023,"end":21613.699,"text":"現在我們繼續開會現在在議長二樓旁聽的是十語文教營隊的所有同學們歡迎你們大家好歡迎歡迎現在我們進行內政組織質詢首先請蔡奇昌委員質詢"},{"start":21643.903,"end":21649.748,"text":"主席各位列席的官員大家午安麻煩主席請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備選蔡委員好院長午安"},{"start":21662.826,"end":21689.187,"text":"今天本席跟上一次一樣本席對總質詢我還是把年輕朋友最關心的居住正義也就是我們要讓臺灣不斷高不斷上漲的房價怎麼讓年輕朋友可以有一個家所以社宅是一個本席從當副院長一直到回過頭來當委員我們一直在關注的一個問題"},{"start":21690.509,"end":21697.549,"text":"我想讓一開始我先讓卓院長瞭解幾個數據第一個我想這個叫台股的總市值"},{"start":21698.206,"end":21727.397,"text":"也就是過去8年的時間蔡政府對於臺灣經濟在方向上政策規劃上事實上是做對了一些方向所以你看我們從2016年開始臺股的總市值從23.9兆幾乎成長3倍到今年的5月臺股的總市值已經達到67.3兆那換言之它創造的一定程度的財富的效果"},{"start":21728.217,"end":21746.592,"text":"第二部分我們來看一下我隨便抓一個年份當然新的有時候有些國家還沒有出來我們就用2021年來做一個比較院長你可以看得到臺灣人或者說華人非常喜歡存款所以你看臺灣的國民儲蓄率"},{"start":21749.113,"end":21773.539,"text":"接近50%你看相對於美國17英國15加拿大23南韓才33所以國人錢很多第三個部分我想院長你也很清楚我們的政策裡面希望包括過去台商的錢我們透過政策讓台商的錢引流回臺投資臺灣"},{"start":21776.418,"end":21800.967,"text":"這三個數據我們都可以看到一個現象,臺灣人很多錢,油資充斥,那油資充斥的結果臺灣人又喜歡買土地買房子,所以換言之他把供給有限的這個房子不斷的因為油資的充沛,所以大家不斷的供需沒有辦法平衡的情況底下,我們的房價可以說節節高升。"},{"start":21803.164,"end":21829.85,"text":"現在我們談都不是在談蛋黃區了現在年輕朋友是談到蛋殼區啦蛋白大概也買不起了啦大家都在談蛋殼區所以啊我們一直在做一件事情你看從這個105年民國105年開始我們一連串無論是房地合一稅的2.0或者109年通過所謂打草房的三法"},{"start":21830.799,"end":21854.812,"text":"在109年開始,央行不斷的祭出選擇性的信用管制,其實這些政策都是希望透過政策來打炒房。可是院長你也知道回顧從105年一路109年到今天,我們打炒房的效果是非常的有限,也就是我們眼睜睜的政策不斷推出,但房價不斷的上漲。"},{"start":21856.038,"end":21862.955,"text":"所以這個表示我們在政策面對所謂的房地產面對房子政策的時候我們出現了一些問題"},{"start":21865.228,"end":21889.274,"text":"本席的看法認為很簡單第一個我覺得房子有居住正義也就是有社會正義的一個面向這個政府應該來做應該來照顧年輕人照顧弱勢但是那個院長也不要忘記房地產他還有市場性也就是房子土地他作為在台灣自由市場情況底下他作為一種商品"},{"start":21890.094,"end":21902.69,"text":"所以他有他的自由市場的供需的這個狀態要去滿足所以在這個情況底下我想只透過這個政策來做是非常有限也因為如此"},{"start":21903.547,"end":21924.692,"text":"本席過去以來一直積極希望對於社會住宅的推動無論中央政府或者地方政府他都應該要卯足全力也就是我們常常喜歡談的叫做優先法案或者政府的施政重點那本席不厭其煩又花了大概5分鐘的時間來論述這一段因為這個賴總統上任卓內閣也上任"},{"start":21933.462,"end":21949.709,"text":"所以我想我很希望從卓院長的這個口中我聽到社會住宅的這個政策社會住宅推動是不是這個卓內閣重要的這個優先法案或者是優先要做的政策"},{"start":21951.716,"end":21953.217,"text":"謝謝院長。我們就來具體進入這個政策的內容。"},{"start":21977.216,"end":22001.187,"text":"蔡總統的目標8年他要蓋12萬戶所以我們把它做了一個統計幾乎我們從目前既有的新完工的、新建中的、絕標而代開工的以及目前規劃中的這樣加一加剛好12萬6千多戶所以換言之大概蔡總統說"},{"start":22003.471,"end":22031.086,"text":"8年要蓋12萬戶的目標這個算是有一個初步的成果那我看了一下這個賴總統所提阿他希望未來的8年當然他現在第一任是4年但規劃是用8年來做規劃如果8年他目標是25萬戶的社宅那我看了一下25萬戶的社宅換言之除了將蔡總統上位完工的都已經規劃好上位完工把他蓋完"},{"start":22033.197,"end":22047.553,"text":"賴總統還要再蓋13萬戶。 我也舉一個數據讓卓院長看一下。 全世界各國社會住宅的比例來看,"},{"start":22049.588,"end":22075.95,"text":"各位可以看得到這個荷蘭是34啦射載的比例是34%不要講到荷蘭啦我們光隔壁的日本或者美國這高度資本主義國家的美國新加坡或者其他國家台灣只有0.8所以總理長就算你25萬戶8年可以如期完成其實啊占比還是很低啦"},{"start":22077.83,"end":22103.238,"text":"這個0.8我再給你加一趴好了因為你蓋13萬戶你也不過1.81.8我再給你四折五入算兩趴好了你還是距離人家還是非常的遙遠所以本席雖然我知道你有很多的難處因為內政部都會來我辦公室報告但是我認為這個都是什麼這個都是因為站在內政部的立場也就是"},{"start":22104.566,"end":22125.382,"text":"這個部長也站在旁邊如果以內政部之力要來完成13萬戶他們就是認為有進步了但是以本席的角度13萬戶那個叫勉強不能叫及格那叫勉強不及格本席認為你應該就目標設定25萬戶不是設定蔡總統的12萬戶加你的13萬戶應該這個"},{"start":22135.792,"end":22151.128,"text":"這個賴政府就應該直接25萬戶這個比例才可以勉強追得上才可以勉強追得上所以這個涉宰的比例過低我們如果要來推動除了"},{"start":22152.65,"end":22178.056,"text":"這個大家都知道以前陳總統的時代中部科學園區化不可能為可能那時候大家說一個科學園區要做得好沒有3、5年以上是不可能的結果當時陳前總統的時代將事用命大家把中部科學園區當成一個很重要的目標所以你看兩年的時間中部科學園區就好了"},{"start":22179.195,"end":22184.269,"text":"所以本席只認為這個叫勢在人為如果今天賴政府"},{"start":22185.131,"end":22212.18,"text":"左內閣認為年輕人居住正義的問題如果設宅是解決目前房價高漲或者年輕人要住得起房子很重要的解方之一我認為就應該要請權力來做這個事情而不是這件事情只請那個劉世芳部長的內政部甚至下面的住都中心去想辦法找地啊蓋房子啊"},{"start":22212.5,"end":22212.68,"text":"請卓院長"},{"start":22221.067,"end":22225.509,"text":"兩點跟委員報告第一點我們的社會住宅政策除了直接興建之外委員也知道我們還有包租貸款跟租金補貼另外這個分別有25萬戶跟50萬戶"},{"start":22251.283,"end":22267.047,"text":"委員所關心的直接興建我們秉持的態度是我們直接很誠實的看到問題所以務實的提出這樣的數據這是個方法再來就是我們踏實的要在未來的8年內興建包括前面12萬戶之外的13萬戶這是從誠實務實踏實的角度來出發"},{"start":22270.948,"end":22273.709,"text":"本席還是覺得啦 就是說 左院長的回答我不是叫做不滿意啦"},{"start":22294.96,"end":22316.67,"text":"就是賴總統要連任他一定要有幾個事情是讓所有國人同胞覺得賴總統在這幾項事情做得有夠好的賴總統很簡單嘛他把台灣的能見度把整個台灣的經濟等等他有幾個很重要的事情是大家記得很清楚的那"},{"start":22317.867,"end":22340.207,"text":"我認為啦,把社會住宅這件事情請全力把它做好。 是賴總統未來四年他要連任之後,年輕朋友會記得最清楚。 蔡總統雖然十二萬戶都一起乞討啊,但是你要知道年輕朋友不買單啊。 十二萬戶在賴總統的這個總統或者選舉過程裡面,年輕朋友是沒有跟我們站在一起的。"},{"start":22341.035,"end":22366.495,"text":"所以本席只是建議啦我說我對你的回答不是滿意的原因就是說本席只是建議就你的回答是你把它當一件事但你沒有把它當最重要的事情所以本席還是認為說這件事情你們去思考一下有哪幾件事情是卓院長你在任內你覺得我要請全力把它做好的事情我覺得挑一兩樣出來做這個這一兩樣做下去是對這個"},{"start":22369.156,"end":22380.938,"text":"臺灣的鄉親臺灣的民眾非常有感的所以本席只是建議你或許你有其他的選項本席因為沒有問到所以你可能我不知道即使我們有更多的選項即使有更多的選項"},{"start":22382.182,"end":22401.971,"text":"社會住宅、社會居住正義這一件事永遠是我們很重要的一個優先的事項。本席就隨便建議啦,你聽一聽啦,譬如說公私協力啦,也就是什麼叫做請權力,內政部一定沒有這樣的權力,譬如說你在所有這些大型的企業,我們的科學園區、工業區的附近,"},{"start":22402.791,"end":22427.907,"text":"跟大型的企業合作因為他們的年輕員工也需要設宅嘛所以讓他們來蓋嘛蓋呢要有誘因啦不是只是說你要去喔不是而是你政府如果你配合我蓋甚至你可以跟建商或者其他有需要的我也講過嘛我也跟部長建議過啊我們那個消防員警消啊你看那個宿舍啊有多老舊"},{"start":22428.988,"end":22452.049,"text":"注射非常的老舊然後呢這個你看喔平均屋齡超過50年而且嚴重不足全國只有1.7%的警察人員和1.4%的消防員實際配有這個植物宿舍那22個縣市有17個縣市為提供消防員所謂的植物宿舍所以這個需求很大"},{"start":22452.89,"end":22480.717,"text":"那這個東西要怎麼去蓋這個跟社宅可不可以結合比如說你的容積可以蓋戶數比原來的消防員需求更高你就應該把它蓋滿嘛所以我的意思要跟院長提醒是行政院擁有所有各部會如果各部會把社宅當成一件事情那就不是內政部的事情那是行政院的事情也就是本期所提到這個叫請行政院的力氣來做事"},{"start":22481.377,"end":22483.238,"text":"時間剩下最後一分鐘我也從此提醒"},{"start":22511.547,"end":22529.872,"text":"我再舉一個表格,你看齁這個中遷率啊我舉一個中遷率你看齁這個臺中地區、桃園地區、臺北地區啊你可以看得到那個中遷率啊有的都只有低到個位數平均也大概都是有十幾%、二十%左右所以表示"},{"start":22531.055,"end":22555.884,"text":"大家對社會住宅的需求是很高的需求是很高哪怕你還有這個包租代管啊租金補貼我都不反對啦但基本上還是沒有辦法因為你看這個中簽率就知道大家對社宅的需求還是存在那另外呢我們在媒體上也看到所謂什麼叫做開名車住社宅或者呢最近大家在檢討的這個"},{"start":22558.872,"end":22562.876,"text":"購屋的這個所謂第一例的這些貸款等等因為時間的關係"},{"start":22584.798,"end":22587.459,"text":"謝謝蔡齊昌委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來,我們請登記第12號羅廷偉委員質詢。好,謝謝院長,有請院長。麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":22616.028,"end":22635.47,"text":"委員好 院長好 首先我要特別感謝行政院還有我們的內政部 我們在持續爭取這個永續提升人行安全的計畫 我這裡也有爭取到 也非常感謝因為台中市政府有送案麻園頭溪南區的復興路以及東南區的建成路都有爭取到相關的計畫內容"},{"start":22636.391,"end":22664.213,"text":"但後續呢因為還有國光路、文興南路以及我們的五泉南路未獲補助我們也持續的關注也希望內政部給予我們高度的關心臺中市的建設那當然第一個我想要跟院長爭取照顧弱勢將中低收入戶比照低收入戶啊也可以納入使用公立殯葬設施的免收使用管理費那院長我想跟你分享這個2017年5月立法院三讀通過殯葬管理條例第21之1"},{"start":22665.354,"end":22690.122,"text":"條文修正將低收入戶使用公立的殯葬設施火葬場以及納骨塔均免收使用管理相關的一個費用但是呢我要跟你探討的是社會救助法第一條規定很清楚為照顧低收入戶中低收入戶我們可以看到制定的這個本法他就是要把輔助救濟的對象有包含中低收"},{"start":22690.882,"end":22719.068,"text":"所以我想截至現在112年第4季,全國約有28萬6千的中低收入戶未不符合這樣子的一個殯葬管理條例。我想跟您爭取,院長,基於照顧弱勢,彰顯政府照顧中低收的國民是否評估商帳費用、火化及納骨塔塔位等所需經費中央編列來給予支持。雲林縣目前正在做。行政院可不可以有這個機會來演繹?"},{"start":22721.101,"end":22745.242,"text":"報告委員這個有關於地方自治事項他必須有一個全國的一致性那現在呢中低收入戶總計有26萬餘人這個已經由地方政府在吸收這樣的一個費用是如果再納入中低收入戶那這個人數當然龐大當然同樣如果由地方政府來吸收的話那才是地方自治事項那是不是地方政府能夠去"},{"start":22746.263,"end":22770.558,"text":"曾接這樣的一個財政的負擔因為是不是計算結果是可以的這個我覺得我們尊重所以這邊我是說所需的經費由中央政府來編列預算支持所以我想跟您爭取當然我知道現在目前是由地方政府所以雲林縣目前正在自己去想辦法所以我希望透過這個這麼重要的一個質詢來跟您建議希望內政部能夠做一個考慮"},{"start":22771.398,"end":22791.94,"text":"那當然第二個我想跟你探討的是有關於我們大家都在探討的社會住宅我想我以103年當這個分水嶺因為103年有所謂的潮運當時內政部統計全國的住宅價格指數99.07而現在第四季112年的第四季來到了136.2那我想孔子說32例"},{"start":22793.742,"end":22818.645,"text":"我自己呢35歲我覺得這是一個人生的分水嶺我們在跑這個行程的時候很多有些跟我們差不多歲數的一些年輕人跟我們分享不敢結婚不敢生薪水比不上其他的國家房價持續的攀升對他們來說高不可攀負擔非常的重院長就你自己對自己觀察你對這個房價的觀察房市的觀察你覺得有沒有還漲甚至有降價"},{"start":22820.295,"end":22840.701,"text":"當然這個因為都會化的行程公共建設的加強是乃至於整個建築成本的提高以及很多專業區科技園區的產生周遭帶動的一個土地的需求房屋的需求等等以及在這個建商他們用很多的行銷的手法"},{"start":22841.041,"end":22866.42,"text":"都會注照著房價往上升。 所謂前景看好的臺灣所以持續在攀升。 但過去我們在透過這個平均地權以及房地合一的2.0的稅率都有看到稍微的舒緩但是我個人認為要讓它下滑很大應該是很難除了有一個很大的一個變動那臺灣在這個穩定的局面底下有看到因為這樣的措施稍微的下緩"},{"start":22867,"end":22879.987,"text":"但現在他隨時可能因為某種因素在做一些市場上的變化那政府的策略是用公共政策的手段透過金融的方式透過更多租屋補貼的方式來進行評議這個市場"},{"start":22882.008,"end":22909.421,"text":"所以我們一起來探討那我也很高興你實事求是的一個回答那我想在前總統蔡英文所提出的一個住宅三件目前我們看到改革房屋稅制以及健全租屋體制以及新辦社會住宅我們可以來探討幾個稅制的部分因為7月要開始囤房稅2.0實際的效果仍未知但是目前新清安貸款大家都覺得有點不妙最近還有這樣子的一個新聞報導說網路上的探討"},{"start":22911.502,"end":22941.051,"text":"很多都不太看好這個新清安的一個貸款那因為現在房價是越打越高我們支持打房但是我覺得是真正的是打炒房我覺得這個關鍵是在這裡我覺得我們明顯這個政策是想要給年輕人吃胡蘿蔔但是我們卻不敢對炒房以及投資客拿出更大更大的一個棒子來因應我覺得這個著力點應該要想辦法"},{"start":22941.331,"end":22967.614,"text":"我想這個跟第二支建樓建權租屋體系有著類似的狀況我想租屋的爭議以及租賃的權益我們都持續的關注我想我也緊盯著租屋定型化的契約防範這個房東調漲電價這個部分我想之前也有其他的委員關心這一題那我希望這個定型化契約能夠趕緊出來但接著我要講的是第三事件新辦社會住宅"},{"start":22968.214,"end":22993.05,"text":"我想新辦社會住宅我想要分享幾個數據當然賴總統對於這一個百萬社宅的一個目標我們是很擔憂他的達成如何達成我們當然希望他能夠達成再來我要看一下這些數據是從內政部不動產資訊平台社會住宅專區統計抓出來的我就不細談內部我就跟大家報告說實在話我覺得整個數據"},{"start":22994.511,"end":23013.168,"text":"有過於的美化那您聽聽看我覺得因為真正能住的只有既有加薪完工也就是說全國只有3萬336戶是民眾真正能夠住進去的占比整個全國住宅是0.32%"},{"start":23015.526,"end":23035.501,"text":"所以還有7萬2千零24戶是正在蓋根本還沒有蓋好所以跟實際民眾的差距跟落差是有的但是再者我看到內政部在2月23號的臉書有說中央在台中市新辦的社會住宅已達4千戶有嗎?"},{"start":23035.501,"end":23038.963,"text":"有那這個部分我要跟大家分享其中有一個點"},{"start":23040.826,"end":23061.434,"text":"國家住住中心推動榮景區的臺棠公營學院轉做社會住宅提供有就學就業居住的民眾可以來申請入住200多戶。﹖是﹖對吧那我想我要跟大家報告可是我們可以看一下全國住宅的這個新辦進度統計表中央在臺中新完工的這個部分有203戶"},{"start":23063.815,"end":23078.353,"text":"可是臺堂公營學院設宅改裝學生宿舍根本就是就不是新完工啊為什麼我要這樣講臺堂在100年就取得使用執照臺堂自營收租的一個宿舍宿舍早就在使用"},{"start":23078.894,"end":23101.904,"text":"只是去年加入了旅館公司有的房轉型設宅專案才轉為社會住宅使用所以從頭到尾我認為它不是新完工但是我們不居就於這細節但是院長我覺得這樣子應該把它分配到既有的那一項但是我要跟大家探討的是臺中市目前已完工2700"},{"start":23104.285,"end":23119.051,"text":"臨時提案委員．新建中的社宅有4649戶．共計7368戶．排名六都是第二僅次於臺北市．針對認真執行社宅的地方政府．"},{"start":23119.943,"end":23146.923,"text":"院長可不可以給予一些獎勵的計畫措施鼓勵好學生再更認真鼓勵好學生協助我們賴清德總統所訂定的這目標可以在該縣市能夠更加大刀闊斧的進行。 院長你怎麼看?感謝委員如果中央跟地方政府都能就某一個這樣人民所需要的政策能夠通力的合作這絕對是全民之福那地方做得好"},{"start":23148.26,"end":23174.629,"text":"不一定掌聲在中央大家還是會給地方政府給台中市政府掌聲的如果這個掌聲我覺得對我們來講都是最大最大的獎勵當然想跟您爭取因為有頒獎台中市政府有被頒獎那是個榮耀我們已經同意補助台中市政府總共有158億來興建有有有我知道我知道這個非常的實際但是也希望未來有機會興建中的工程費用我們很希望台中市政府可以多提供我們一些土地"},{"start":23175.209,"end":23191.619,"text":"中央再來一起來協助如果台中市政府我也在幫忙找土地那來通報給我們中央我也鼓勵台中市政府當然後面我再來跟你探討就是說其實剛剛很多的立委都在分享整個社會住宅的佔總體量我想"},{"start":23192.499,"end":23218.389,"text":"5%是先進國家的一個低標啦,剛剛都在講周邊國家嘛,6%的我們都,我是覺得臺灣目前是0.32啦,當然有人對於這個認知上有差距沒關係,但我要講的是還是跟實際的低標有一定的差距。那本席想談的重點就是內政部的數據一直都是中央跟地方,但是我覺得不是只是單靠一方就能夠完成,院長你也能夠認同嘛,對不對,應該是共同來努力。"},{"start":23218.869,"end":23236.25,"text":"所以本席建議中央地方一起來協力,中央主導興建,中央可以盤點現有國有地,例如台塘,在台中扣除了農業區、山坡地、保留地、工業區等用地不能興建以外的,是不是能夠再來持續的盤點,有沒有其他的,台塘只是舉例。"},{"start":23237.071,"end":23238.172,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（"},{"start":23267.811,"end":23296.181,"text":"最後我想說是不是能夠有一些政策來做引誘的一個誘因那就是新建集合式的住宅隆基獎率可以要求挪移部分作為公益社會住宅以及公托公幼親子館相關的等設施過去我們看到荷蘭的考察荷蘭的一個項目大家都可以稱讚荷蘭他們的相關的政策比如說像其實荷蘭又更進一步公私造屋其實剛剛我們前一位委員也有提到"},{"start":23296.961,"end":23324.008,"text":"這個部分鼓勵青年參與合作造屋的方向我想荷蘭這個部分我們還是可以實際有所參考這部分我想臺灣社會住宅起步比較晚很多東西沒有完全這麼成熟但是藉近荷蘭的模式破除大眾對於社會住宅的一個成見形塑一個屬於臺灣新社區的文化我想荷蘭的一個混居透過這樣子的一個模式我想院長針對以上的建議院長有沒有機會回應一下承諾"},{"start":23325.129,"end":23348.41,"text":"這個新的區段徵收案期的規定必須要提供5%給直轄市3%給非直轄市來侵犯社會住宅這個已經是將來可行的方式之一那至於說更多的公有土地或是一般可開發的土地我們日前有請內政部來統籌把土地盤點但這個土地要坐落在可需要用的地方而不是偏僻的我請內政部說明"},{"start":23350.532,"end":23374.045,"text":"對剛剛羅委員所講的都非常正確有些措施當中我再提供一個就是住宅法裡面其實它是可以鼓勵私人的企業私人的企業他如果願意留住員工他也願意蓋社宅的話我們也願意協助那這樣子土地的取得就比較沒有問題對當然我是說在誘因在更多對我們多管齊下來興建這個社會住宅提供給年輕人比較多的居住正義的機會"},{"start":23375.36,"end":23391.944,"text":"好,謝謝。另外我想再跟這個院長探討毒品防治的一個問題。 院長我想在這一次的書面報告可以寫到,這個落實五打七安政策,受毒追人斷金流。 那我想有幾個舉例跟這個新聞想跟您做一個探討。 第一個,這個新聞呢齁,權力棄毒"},{"start":23394.585,"end":23400.351,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":23415.487,"end":23431.619,"text":"三毒K的菸啊,相關的K毒人數啊,我們覺得有可能毒販是化整為零的方式帶貨,即使被查獲也只要罰錢。我想院長有沒有一個態度,我們之前20公克調整成5公克,有沒有機會再繼續更嚴格?"},{"start":23434.091,"end":23450.913,"text":"現在我們把打詐跟反毒列為相當重要的治安工作之一所以在法令上像打詐的釋法我們希望趕快通過在反毒的過程裡面對新興毒品必須要有一個毒品的審議能夠加速至於說"},{"start":23452.154,"end":23465.31,"text":"這個已經持在手上的或者是剛剛委員所說的這樣行為的太陽如果我們認為這位將來對反毒的工作會產生不利或是說利有未待的情況底下我們當然共同來討論我跟"},{"start":23467.012,"end":23488.115,"text":"我想520之前我跟法務部長有探討過他也覺得這個所謂的K毒年年篡高這個持有5公克以下只需要裁罰金額他認為應該更嚴格再繼續下降這個功課數我也希望能夠朝這一面來處理那第二個當然我要探討的是新聞新興毒品之冠3年205人死於喵喵"},{"start":23489.256,"end":23501.33,"text":"第三、依託米子被滲入電子煙稀釋如同喪屍。（我想法務部讀審會議通過而列為讀品,現在走法制程序,後續要報行政院合併大概要花多少時間?"},{"start":23502.87,"end":23524.004,"text":"報告我來講一下我們其實預告的時間是15天那6月13號的時候已經召開毒品防治協會所以其實算上短的時間之內可能就可以公告最後我想講在98年間有一個食品添加威爾岡尾要開始盛行當時的行政院長吳敦義指示要由所謂的"},{"start":23547.679,"end":23549.06,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記13號謝龍介委員質詢。"},{"start":23584.747,"end":23589.249,"text":"議長,我請杜議長麻煩請卓院長備詢杜議員好辛苦應該你一生中情,我給你觀察今年心情,我個人吃香菜,也吃琴皮"},{"start":23613.53,"end":23627.792,"text":"所以你知道我們說的和樂委啊,我在說這個漢文台語也好,和樂委也好,臺灣話也好,是真真正正中文文化,你覺得不理解?當然是這對水條開始,有一本尺叫做尺文,那麼一直到東條,一本尺,加你發音叫做東文。"},{"start":23643.718,"end":23668.437,"text":"來到送到叫做公文,到清到叫做空虛禮典,到清尾一百零零二左右,我們麻辣人這個紅色出一份淚音妙語。一直到195歲年,臺灣人,每三心腹前心聲,出一份淚音保感。"},{"start":23669.977,"end":23681.824,"text":"所以臺灣的一句句有音有理,我不知道你有沒有理解?你愛談話早點來打拚,我看你也沒有在打拚啊。 讓這天愛臺灣的人過去之前的人很感慨說,現在有一個國民黨的蔣介石在推薦漢文台語。"},{"start":23695.097,"end":23716.467,"text":"你講愛台灣講到都忘記都講我現在都愛台瓶而已我抱歉我講正在臨幕沒大家有接受愛軍姪媽啦但是得手的人還是同樣要一塊土地啦我今天上你這本書齁 最重要有意義的你所看的第二範圍都有我們台語的發音像在查國語字典一樣你如果要查國語理論"},{"start":23725.104,"end":23729.057,"text":"在USB齁,你回去聽一遍,後座來到這裡,你就會對W流啊。"},{"start":23755.968,"end":23782.014,"text":"鳳珠公有說：軍事提棋員離各棋行：就是說：說一本棋：做沒一趟詩：下詩下情：鳳珠公也有說：國家員即不出：提供即不帶：就是說沒水本生落：因為今天做不夠這很漏氣很減少的事情："},{"start":23784.397,"end":23792.987,"text":"我看你看整個委員裡面的運動包括國民主席也好包括社會主席你不會去設定一個國標的手裡真好"},{"start":23795.219,"end":23820.481,"text":"你也要熱情出派,我等會給你看,他都亂講了。 什麼在白暗那一天在選舉他都亂講了,說我理孔什麼,他要起二十萬號,你看總統那天都把他擁有了,就死心無,不然就漏氣,換一個漏氣回來,但是你的態度不錯就是說,包括我們的政府委員長在幫你報告樓庭委員,包括其他議員在講。"},{"start":23822.694,"end":23843.029,"text":"我告訴你,做會比較重要,不需要做事情,不能用手裡來包裝,所以你不要叫我熱情地出牌,我看你一刀。﹐不會啦,不會啦﹐真的不會?﹐不會啦﹐不會?﹐不會﹐比較正?﹐不會,他都對國家的風雄,如果這樣很正確,這個國家會有好的風雄,怕這樣就是啊。﹐小韓討判有大韓的討判,小韓的討判不大韓的討判有,你知道嗎?﹐沒有啦,沒有討判,沒有討判啦﹐沒有啦,來來來,給我看看,來。"},{"start":23857.278,"end":23857.358,"text":"臨時提案時間"},{"start":23874.704,"end":23877.667,"text":"謝榮健議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。"},{"start":23897.964,"end":23909.953,"text":"他們的清白五月26．他要入閒啊你說你用政治生命保證清白現在在入閒啊你的政治生命是什麼這是我個人的事我先吃你的心你、你、你、你、你、你、你、你、你、"},{"start":23915.626,"end":23941.708,"text":"謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議"},{"start":23943.218,"end":23952.966,"text":"主席,他就是說要施理先施啦。他說對啊,有資料你先施啊。 要施理先施這樣。對啊,有資料你先施啊。 我說,我施理就是他。他說對,有資料你先施。對,要兩句一樣的。 我要說嘛,他當然是設定咱們,所以政敵當然,我有意見我付出代價。"},{"start":23969.246,"end":23970.466,"text":"整個會議的人要繼續論壇,我鄉親乖乖說我跟你的契約是正義。契約是適當的,你怎麼可以是?"},{"start":23970.466,"end":23974.247,"text":"總之我付出待機。所以我要跟你說,講話要心中,你講得風暴,講到三明那一世,現在把他逼走了,早上說三明歹世,我給你看看,"},{"start":23997.998,"end":24004.5,"text":"立法院接受這個立法院的這個國情諮詢這是錯的這個是假訊息因為根據不管是根據憲法或是根據立法院職權刑事法"},{"start":24021.271,"end":24021.311,"text":"你看"},{"start":24033.567,"end":24042.474,"text":"說得氣氛好高,對啊,台東不錯,現在立法院一個統計人,我救去,走去暢領。 總統的台東並不改變,只要立法院在開會的時候邀請來做國際協議,他就是來。 我跟你說喔,你問我創派,我不知道我對你這麼嚴重,我比你更了解他啦,問我看他啦。"},{"start":24056.86,"end":24066.308,"text":"你給我看牌子,你給我看牌子,你給我看牌子,你給我看牌子,你給我看牌子,你給我看牌子,你給我看牌子,你給我看牌子"},{"start":24084.523,"end":24100.409,"text":"我不是說他是少年啦,我是說看他,不穿滾珠,要跳舞,他是總統啦,不是總統,總統,大家都會當孫總統啦,總統不太像勒,但是,在這裡我也說了,對國家的元首應該給他有適當的內容,對不對,所以一問一答不一定來,大家要一個態度出來。"},{"start":24110.981,"end":24111.041,"text":"（6月25日（"},{"start":24123.069,"end":24123.429,"text":"．6月25日．6月25日"},{"start":24142.055,"end":24146.4,"text":"我告訴你,你不必我更了解,你不必在這裡聽他,這是不必要。"},{"start":24162.088,"end":24169.493,"text":"他的事他要自己做,個人做要個人擔。我們是聽憲法的精神,聽憲法的精神。他這樣很好啊,跳下來第一層,我給他欣賞,我給他按個讚。喔,跳下來第一層,好啊,第一層來面對,大家請面面對,面與對冠,都沒問題。我告訴你啦,選舉大家都會啦,不要用騙的,要無失,喔。"},{"start":24190.489,"end":24212.998,"text":"啊現在怎麼給我求他你也不怕欸我在台南市給他衝到一半兩百三十四天沒有禮拜議會啊這叫做憲法這沒危險市長不用你給他給禮完這順這樣沒危險啊這危險的事他不做有夠多次啊那有歷史的原因啊你不要再說歷史的原因啊我同時你那邊歷史的原因我同時就給你記了啦"},{"start":24220.561,"end":24223.503,"text":"我告訴你聽啦,我在第三檔我問啦,我說是對嗎?這三檔我啊?"},{"start":24245.472,"end":24252.978,"text":"你告訴我你今天有沒有做一件台南市的建設一件就好我吃兩塊冬季絲巾你老總統不給我贏啊不好意思說給我來拜託來經過五個月以後民進黨提名提名之後你知道他把台南市的鄉親第一股的文宣說什麼你注意聽啊"},{"start":24274.517,"end":24284.885,"text":"各位臺南市民朋友,我是大成長。過去的市長我都在歸位,未來的市長,我們臺南市的大進步。我告訴你,做一個社區,可以領受一個市長都在歸位。所以我問你,你做一條建設,他抱歉給我印,坦白說,印不出來。所以我說你不要拒絕他啦,再給他頒一個五千塊錢來,注意聽。"},{"start":24306.261,"end":24329.591,"text":"民進黨籍的公職人員,市長也好、立委也好、議員也好,講一句比較淡白的啦。（6月25日（卡稱幾期末,台南市民都知道啊。（6月25日（哪有什麼樣的條件講無禁啦。（6月25日（但是,現在台灣社會很多人講台南市民進黨的公職是無禁。"},{"start":24335.358,"end":24363.044,"text":"為什麼會這樣?因為互相攻擊嘛!互相攻擊嘛!作為老市長,今天你回來台南,心情是很緊張。對台南市發生的事,我真的很痛心。所以我在這,我希望市長站起來。李維站起來!議員都站起來!"},{"start":24365.706,"end":24366.026,"text":"臨時提案會議臨時提案"},{"start":24393.837,"end":24396.019,"text":"今天有一個新聞,就是說中國大陸派人來監視我們的媒體。"},{"start":24416.903,"end":24420.405,"text":"你明明知道他在監視我們的媒體,在跟我們操作,你為什麼是抱歉幫我調監幫他做?"},{"start":24420.405,"end":24424.367,"text":"媒體可以這樣做嗎?當然不行啊,如果有這個手勢...有這個手勢你為什麼幫他做?這個手勢發生了事情,是不是大家都知道這件事陸委會來跟...大家都知道,我告訴你,他做的事如果有這個事情..."},{"start":24442.793,"end":24457.827,"text":"都跟整棟一樣,整棟也利用很多媒體,還有中央廚房,每天都要討論什麼,今天討論韓國禄,明天才討論吃龍蓋。 齁,徐巧欣、葡萄牙說話,每個人都說一樣,你如果說他們是這樣就對了,你如果知道是這樣,不這樣,你回去炒,我會提供一個共同的群組給你。"},{"start":24466.815,"end":24468.136,"text":"委員報告,他是因為輪到回去了。"},{"start":24491.704,"end":24503.713,"text":"阿輪到有四人回去阿,你從那些故事你講就對了,是有阿沒有,有這個事情阿沒有啦。我們現在會跟文化部主管機關一起來做行政調查。阿沒調查欸,當報案那樣現在是..."},{"start":24513.935,"end":24539.677,"text":"謝謝謝同介委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽的是臺灣四代教育基金會所有的好朋友歡迎你們。報告委員會現在內政組的質詢已經詢答完畢。我們現在開始換組。換外交及國防組織質詢。現在我們休息10分鐘。10分鐘之後我們開始進行國防外交的詢答。謝謝大家。謝謝。"},{"start":25161.664,"end":25164.326,"text":"報告院會現在我們繼續開會進行外交及國防組織諮詢首先我們請賴世保委員諮詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請行政院的卓院長以及外交部的"},{"start":25189.603,"end":25217.438,"text":"國務委員長外交部林部長備選兩位長官好首先我記得在外交委員會國務委員會我對林佳龍部長有跟你訛諾了按照過去的學經歷耶魯的政治博士"},{"start":25219.097,"end":25245.528,"text":"當過台中市長當過立法委員兩個都有當過交通部長等等的反觀我們現在的卓院長就是跟我一樣楊純立委做完一路做一個民進黨代理主席一段時間不是代理報告委員那不是代理那是選出來的選出來的選出來的就當一個黨籍黨籍一般來講社會評價不高社會評價其實林佳龍"},{"start":25249.201,"end":25275.923,"text":"為什麼你當院長他當部長他心裡不平啊我那時候問他我沒有能力去當外交部長我那時候問他他說心裡不舒服啊他這樣說啊那個位置本來應該他坐著因為喔政國會沒有位置擺林佳龍擺班無奈坐在這裡好 既然要坐在這裡就隱情做事情該有的做法都做最近有一件事情"},{"start":25277.506,"end":25278.386,"text":"我有共推韓院長做董事長"},{"start":25301.348,"end":25320.297,"text":"為什麼開始給他怎麼穿小鞋呢?基金會的執行長魯業忠外交政大外交系的系主任他也當過民主基金會的副執行長五年內結果你們一把他幹掉請問你下次什麼時候給他提名?"},{"start":25321.465,"end":25346.638,"text":"報告委員齁,我們尊重民主基金會董事會的決定。沒有尊重的決定,你副董事長在那裡一手在那裡嚷啊!你在那裡嚷啊!很清楚看得到,現在國外的駐台單位,他們對這事情表達嚴重的關切喔!好幾個國外的駐台單位都說,What's going on?"},{"start":25346.638,"end":25348.999,"text":"TFB嘛是吧?"},{"start":25348.999,"end":25349.259,"text":"TFN?"},{"start":25351.004,"end":25361.372,"text":"為什麼執行長沒有辦法產生?請問有沒有接到外國駐台灣的單位給你的關係?有沒有?沒有。美國的MED也沒有。請問你知不知道全世界世界民主運動大會今年在哪裡舉辦?"},{"start":25382.654,"end":25409.565,"text":"韓國韓國韓國韓國韓國韓國韓國"},{"start":25412.028,"end":25433.671,"text":"我們外交委員會大概13位13位?你都一個一個拜訪的嗎?就是盡可能啦,因為有些委員公出比較忙。其中有幾身這麼大身,你們要去報過勒?有,我有跟院長的隨乎有留好啊,還沒有安排上。有嗎?沒有嘛齁?院長我沒講錯嗎?沒有啊!"},{"start":25435.117,"end":25462.08,"text":"你心裡被卓榮台的憤怒傳遞到韓國瑜的身上,我替院長叫去。 如果院長有空我隨時一定會去跟院長請議。倒是這樣,我當這麼久的立委,部長來不來我都無所謂,但是他是院長不一樣,你不去院長看,其他委員你都去看了,院長不去看什麼意思,你要是國會。"},{"start":25464.45,"end":25487.321,"text":"報告委員,我有去看院長喔。 我知道你有看啦。 看了兩次喔。 所以就因為他可以去看,所以他幫院長,你當部長。 報告委員,我有請那個院長的隨乎幫我聯繫啦,因為這個時間上沒有辦法排好。 那個時候。 那個心不甘情不願。 那個事我每天去站著等著他,覺得碰不到啦。 那我以後跟委員一起去。"},{"start":25489.579,"end":25512.034,"text":"這個你不用看我,我不是外交委員會的,你要看院長,院長是國防委員會委員勒,他是國防委員會委員勒,所以你看昨天他就有當院長,你就沒當院長了,差你幾個。結果民主基金會做什麼你不知道,今年的時間民主運動大會在哪裡,在約翰尼斯堡,你也不知道,你是破舊做假的。"},{"start":25512.995,"end":25518.059,"text":"叫做世界民主高峰會的很多個啦,因為最近就是以拜登為主召開的那個在韓國啦。"},{"start":25531.735,"end":25534.997,"text":"世界民主運動大會Women for Democracy democracy"},{"start":25559.873,"end":25582.899,"text":"WMD這以前在台灣舉辦過今年度是在今年是跟我們TFD跟美國MED共同主辦在2022的時候主辦過2020年2020年就要在預案理事堡10月22日到22號你完全不知道"},{"start":25583.854,"end":25599.26,"text":"好,你要感應民主基金會的運作,你是憑哪一頂啊?就憑你叫林佳龍?不是!憑你是民進黨不能可以講信義!我跟妳講齁,民主基金會的副董事長,民主基金會的副董事長,民主基金會副董事長是小禹民主基金會董事長,董事長是在這。你們就一路卡,時間也卡,人選也卡,你什麼時候可以搞定?"},{"start":25614.892,"end":25630.732,"text":"那個董事會的這個決定是敦請我們韓院長董事長主持來這個提名那董事會會行同意權可以提早再開可以提早再開以此董事會決定如執行長的人選嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":25631.713,"end":25659.885,"text":"那應該尊重董事長他可以召集董事會。我們下禮拜就召開,下禮拜就召開,這個補起來。因為國外的駐台單位已經倒霉掉了,特別是NEF美國國家民主基金會倒霉掉,他說我要跟你們報告。我不跟委員報告,因為那是假訊息啦,那個有人操作的啦,他就通過媒體放出來。實行長啊。事實上我們跟那個美國的民主基金會,我們聯繫管道很好。"},{"start":25660.365,"end":25685.992,"text":"你請我回吧我都知道你只要想當官想取代他不好好認真努力啦民主基金會部長你聽我一句話先不要走部長部長部長先不要走先不要走你現在來聽我講一句話就好了你沒用這樣的卡沒問題對不起民主基金會錢不多1.8億不到2億我們立法院就好好伺候你們"},{"start":25687.233,"end":25705.28,"text":"同時事後你們外交部預算,馬上就預算審預算了,我們看著辦,走著想看著辦,這樣欺負韓國瑜,你看著好了,欺負韓國瑜等於欺負立法院,這個是欺負立法院的國民黨團,我們絕對全力做到後盾,看著辦,好,好,院長"},{"start":25710.338,"end":25719.524,"text":"這個總統啊!賴清德總統到現在為止我沒有看到總統啊!Where is the president of 賴清德?It's gone!"},{"start":25719.524,"end":25721.905,"text":"不見了!他就是民進黨的主席啊!"},{"start":25721.905,"end":25726.348,"text":"我經常看到總統啊!沒有我經常看到賴總統啊!昨天!"},{"start":25726.348,"end":25736.395,"text":"昨天軍委他也在代表中華民國國人跟政委歡迎友邦的總理 提問我時間很短 我沒有講 叫你講你不要講話好不好?讓我把這個講完 因為我時間太少了"},{"start":25738.442,"end":25761.727,"text":"外面共軍鬧台總統大搞內鬥根據憲法44條總統有權利協調5月大家有權利協調一下他不要協調了直接對幹總統不見了只見了民進黨的主席叫賴清德結果呢態度態度TAIBE態度"},{"start":25763.717,"end":25782.738,"text":"那是CHAT GPT我們國共會發展出來的他說什麼注意看喔他說總統發動抗議並號召各機關共同反對國會通過的重大法案可能被視為獨裁皇帝行為但是皇帝啊"},{"start":25789.943,"end":25812.28,"text":"你不要講話,我現在講話,我這不會叫你回答,因為你不是,你不是來心得。再看你,你既然想講,讓你來看這個東西。憲法正確條款,第三條第二項第二款,你自己也講過啊,說覆議不過怎麼辦,覆議不過我就接受,沒有辭職的現象,你講的嘛,對不對?是。是嘛!"},{"start":25813.376,"end":25830.776,"text":"但是,一句話喔,憲法裡面定的這麼清楚,原來47條,現在是遵修條款,改了47條的時候要辭職,遵修條款的時候不要辭職,但是要接受,既然你接受了,你還提什麼死刑,提第一項那個?"},{"start":25832.017,"end":25859.039,"text":"人格錯亂啊先不要急我的整體感覺就是你追隨賴皇帝安普洛賴一起加入追殺在野黨的行列他一聲令下調動你行政院調動監察院調動綠燕黨團一起追殺在野黨讓台灣變成一個紮紮實實的獨裁帝制國家可能啊你可以講給你講30秒"},{"start":25862.995,"end":25871.062,"text":"委員你剛剛跟林部長說欺負韓院長就是欺負立法院剛剛你那句話對總統不禮貌對國家不禮貌我提出復議是因為自愛難行"},{"start":25877.858,"end":25883.345,"text":"既然他沒有過,我認為從憲法上,他就是違憲不可行。 憲法規定你要接受啊!"},{"start":25883.345,"end":25888.511,"text":"You got to accept!"},{"start":25888.511,"end":25889.853,"text":"你就接受而已啊!"},{"start":25889.853,"end":25894.518,"text":"憲法有賦予行政院長提出赴議的權利啊!"},{"start":25894.518,"end":25896.401,"text":"憲法有賦予行政院長提出赴議的權利啊!"},{"start":25897.802,"end":25913.498,"text":"復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是因為自愛難行。復議是"},{"start":25922.106,"end":25943.495,"text":"總統和執政院長都照憲法的秩序來換,你應該支持,否則你就是反憲法。我跟你講憲法47條後來改成正確條款,你要接受,既然接受你提什麼覆議,你告訴我提什麼覆議。因為自愛難行啊,我認為自愛難行大院不接受,我認為違憲不可行,我請求大法官會議來處理。"},{"start":25944.295,"end":25959.826,"text":"提覆議你開一開嘛你怎麼有臉在提覆議你都不是你覆議都輸了怎麼有臉提事先呢事先給總統提一百個理由都很難說服委員我知道了總統提可以對不對監察院提可以夠了啦那是跟總統講不夠啊阿前老師講"},{"start":25961.947,"end":25979.111,"text":"賴清德皇帝做了這個事情是最壞的事。 再一次用這種方式來對總統不禮貌,我絕對不能接受。 我講話你不要插嘴。 但是你不禮貌我就不能接受。 有種不禮貌很禮貌,賴清德皇帝很禮貌啊,稱不到皇帝也知道。 一個遵照憲法的總統怎麼會被你稱呼為皇帝呢?"},{"start":25979.111,"end":25981.852,"text":"皇帝啊,他行為就是皇帝啊,我們可以看喔。"},{"start":25983.314,"end":26000.384,"text":"他叫監察院,然後大法官都是你們提名的,大法官15個人,8個人就可以開會,一個人當主席,7個人,4個人就可以決定就把我們跟掉了,4個人推翻113個人的決議,我們的國外改革無法,民進黨的版本占了4成。"},{"start":26002.616,"end":26021.676,"text":"這個好好的檢討,我再講一遍,這個你不要問一回答。你這樣整理表現,我對你的評價越來越低,越來越低。你把自己自作賤,自作賤變成賴皇帝的小跟班。好,我們來看。這個國防部長請一起上來。我時間剩很少,快點。麻煩請國防部長備詢。"},{"start":26027.789,"end":26051.658,"text":"孫小營還要離開之前AIT的他講了一句話叫臺灣人民不要恐慌面對大陸一直包一直包不要恐慌但是不要麻木不忍你不覺得我們現在在邱部長一上來之後說沒有第一級耶邱國正整個要郭部長上來沒有第一級只有自衛權的第一級他打我們我們再打他"},{"start":26052.538,"end":26075.276,"text":"一直說一直說,結果他們的軍艦來了,這個艦來了,潛水艇來了,什麼都來,啊我們這裡什麼都沒有,還居然搞我們的海關演習。 有一句話很有意思,院長你一定要注意,海關演習居然是最貼近實戰的,結果還講了一句話,說如果看到裝備故障,"},{"start":26078.241,"end":26101.94,"text":"軍人的服裝不整技術不熟練大家要習以為常可能臺灣中華民國軍什麼時候這麼落差、落魄、不爽你們怎麼會說另一個守則說噴到這樣的情況不要見怪不怪這個我的感覺你這個方法只是這樣講法只是討拍而已你們官員講的你們司長級講的跟委員報告我們"},{"start":26151.953,"end":26152.393,"text":"主席"},{"start":26179.153,"end":26202.804,"text":"謝謝。謝謝賴斯堡委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長國防部的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二號黃仁委員質詢。謝謝主席。有請我們卓院長。待會再請我們國防部部長。再請卓院長備詢。請國防部部長備詢。"},{"start":26216.135,"end":26237.823,"text":"韓國瑜院長及副堃席總召受習近平的指示這是一個非常政治的議題所以我們來探討一下這樣的一個字眼是用以吐血民進黨造謠利用認知作戰打擊在野黨院長這是一個非常嚴重的議題"},{"start":26239.11,"end":26263.008,"text":"你說在臺灣我們是擁護國家國安的立場而且是維護國家的安全尤其是民意代表我們是維護人民的權益跟維護人民的安全一樣那請問院長你是國安會的擔任成員嗎是不是是好"},{"start":26264.158,"end":26278.097,"text":"根據《國安法》在《國家安全法》的會議組織第4條,行政院院長是國家安全會議的出席人員。那院長不只是出席國安會議,還要熟悉會議內容並落實會議的決議。"},{"start":26283.162,"end":26309.66,"text":"國安會中曾經討論過認知作戰對國安的危害除了中共對我發動認知作戰為我國還面臨哪一個方向的認知作戰你來回答一下好不好跟委員抱歉到行政院這麼一段時間以來我還沒有正式參加過正式的國安會議目前來講當然我們國防部部長"},{"start":26311.223,"end":26312.511,"text":"任次的作戰。來,略行。"},{"start":26324.831,"end":26339.141,"text":"剛剛我也提過官會中曾經討論認識作戰對國家的危害除了中共對我們發動認識的作戰我國面臨的哪一些認識作戰的問題將來以後我們怎麼樣去應對跟面臨我們的認識作戰"},{"start":26348.217,"end":26348.357,"text":"好,我們希望"},{"start":26378.707,"end":26404.737,"text":"剛剛你提的任職作戰是對著是這樣的議題而不是任職作戰是今天用一些不少的一個宣講針對傅昆吉或是我們韓院長的這樣的一個任職作戰是說他是代為我們習近平的這些代言人我說這樣的一個做法民進黨這樣的一個策略這樣會"},{"start":26406.478,"end":26423.207,"text":"會造成了我們國內的團結。另外就是說,認知作戰不是對內,我們應該是共同對外,如何防範這一些將以後對我們國家危及到安全才是這樣的一個議題啊,是吧?"},{"start":26427.288,"end":26438.444,"text":"我想我們面對中國可能的認知作戰,我們都隨時要有警惕跟切心。我們要這裡呼籲的是避免中國藉由認知作戰來"},{"start":26441.559,"end":26441.739,"text":"（6月25日（"},{"start":26459.771,"end":26462.873,"text":"海昆縣目前已進行了破崗的測試,破崗的情況有順利嗎?另外有消息指出"},{"start":26485.219,"end":26506.543,"text":"光電的尾港五月底已經到貨到現在已經將近一個月了那是否已經完成破港測試何時會進入到海上的測試因為尾港是一個非常重要的一個光電尾港是一個非常重要的一個儀器"},{"start":26509.224,"end":26536.302,"text":"部長,你來回答一下。我的了解是都已經交運完畢了,那也現在正在進行博港的測試。那麼都有依照相關的節點來進行。那我沒有辦法在這裡跟委員說明說,大概博港測試大概什麼時候會完畢。但是一旦博港測試完成之後,就接續會進行海上測試。我想這個都依照相關的節點。這邊我必須提醒我們部長,"},{"start":26537.503,"end":26562.921,"text":"根據過去各國潛艦造艦的期程沿行艦從下水到沉浸至少要兩年以上而像日本這樣的一個工業大國參隆級潛艦從下水到沉浸也花了大約一年半的時間海昆艦在去年的9月底命名為下水我們最首次造潛艦"},{"start":26565.413,"end":26583.369,"text":"其間部分的裝備又延遲按照理論上跟比起其他的國家更多的時間才能成軍本席提醒這個僭建國造一定要以安全為率為優先千萬不要敢進度"},{"start":26585.145,"end":26586.786,"text":"海昆號的海上的進行測試的時候,你們願意登艦一起下這個潛艦測試嗎?"},{"start":26608.704,"end":26609.345,"text":"臺船董事長鄭文榮也表達了"},{"start":26630.504,"end":26650.93,"text":"他會登艦見證海昆的潛艦在各式測試項目黃淑匡可能也會共同登艦出海見證歷史性的一刻海昆線下艦的最重要的里程碑本期建議時任的院長和部長應該要主動參與下艦測試以提高國人潛艦的"},{"start":26656.76,"end":26659.668,"text":"國照的一個信心也提振國情"},{"start":26662.321,"end":26688.732,"text":"我認為相關的海事這個是屬於專業的不是我們要去院長或者部長要去做秀的一個地方。 是做秀。 潛艦的完成代表國家一個非常重要的軍事的發展的階段我們應該用很慎重來看它在艦上的所有官兵都是國家賦予重責大任的一時之選測試的過程當中也許工程的測試是另外一種但正式的"},{"start":26689.912,"end":26707.44,"text":"下海這個下潛這個測試那絕對是一個很重要的行為所以不是我們去那邊告訴大家說我們願意來的這個情況我想我本人或許部長也應該我們沒有這個能力的資格我們可以從其他方式來讓國家認為我們跟他站在一起"},{"start":26710.962,"end":26735.261,"text":"要站在國監的角度裡面提升國監的士氣應該要勇於去面對或者是...我們會適時的來發布相關的這個測試的狀況。你是新任你應該發表表達更有力更讓國監能夠覺得士氣的高昂那另外就是有關於聯合立見2024A"},{"start":26738.084,"end":26755.18,"text":"中共到今年的5月23日進行聯合立憲2024A的經驗請問一下部長在這裡在遠溪區城市示意圖裡面哪一個訓練區最為值得關注?你看一下這個"},{"start":26756.341,"end":26777.817,"text":"跟委員報告他這一次2024歷經演習A他只有畫了一個一個那個演習區的一個大致上的一個圖他並沒有標示正確的經緯度所以事實上他演習的區域跟他現在標記的位置也沒有完全的重疊這一個就是讓你眾生"},{"start":26779.32,"end":26807.731,"text":"這個縱深的意義是什麼是從西到東部他縱深裡面是臺灣因為和大陸距離太近暫時的前線後方難以區分必須要用各種方式創造部隊的緩衝空間這個空間就是縱深縱深從西部到東部劃掉一道線這個就是一個非常重要的一個戰略的一個線這是我要讓"},{"start":26813.044,"end":26827.479,"text":"國防部刻意淡化這一次的聯合力氣2024A在威脅性在這一張演習區示意圖裏面最值得關注的就是花蓮外海的演習區它正面"},{"start":26828.98,"end":26840.637,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1"},{"start":26845.103,"end":26864.521,"text":"我們國際戰力我們的海峽中線已經弄丟了弄丟了所以這個是非常嚴重非常嚴重那另外就是6月13號共經無人機也抵抵近花蓮海海外海39海里讓我們利用他"},{"start":26865.492,"end":26893.741,"text":"地形的優勢建立了戰力保存在受到威脅部長如果搞不清楚狀況的話事態將會非常的嚴重我們從來沒有輕忽這個您講的這個歷屆演習他不管是用示意圖的方式或是他在相關的實際作為上面對我們來參與我們來調整這一個國土防衛構想的一個重要的參與這個我想我們高度的重視在之前這個"},{"start":26895.521,"end":26899.824,"text":"當然我們戰力保存是我們在演練的第一個首要的重點當然接下來還有整體防空、海上聯合階級等等"},{"start":26924.063,"end":26948.839,"text":"這些都是在我們眼內的項目之一。暫時保存是特別的重要。那對於另外也是對於柴油的經用車輛設定戰鬥模式的模式設的問題當初為避免柴油經用車輛因暫時無法取得尿素導致動力不足國防部採取了應對的措施是什麼那另外我這特別要講的"},{"start":26950.303,"end":26976.655,"text":"這一些車輛更改設定後的檢測都正常嗎?不正常。第二個,用來更改車輛設定的設備是否符合規定?規範不會符合。那另外據了解提供戰鬥模式設定服務的某個廠商在未經廠商車輛原廠授權下私下採用紅色令大陸製作的設備以"},{"start":26979.336,"end":27004.025,"text":"山寨版的設定軟體經行為國新提供服務。 部長,你知不知道這個事情,你要調查清楚啊。跟委員報告,那個我們已經完成車輛戰鬥模式的設定,可以在尿素缺乏的時候呢,車輛的性能不受限制。那另外也建立了尿素的存量跟持續性合約上來籌補,現存的量供"},{"start":27004.445,"end":27009.867,"text":"我剛剛已經提出了有大陸的大陸的產品在裡面就紅色鏈所以這個就是你們最反對的那所以你們要了解清楚那另外是這一張圖你看一下"},{"start":27028.912,"end":27048.322,"text":"這是原真科技公司的簡介上面清楚寫到深圳市原真科技股份有限公司成立於1992年臺灣則有設立分公司這是一個非常嚴重的事情影響國安的案件本席要求國防部第一個"},{"start":27050.149,"end":27056.633,"text":"調查該大陸設備與軟體是否植入非法城市有相關的一體車輛"},{"start":27061.491,"end":27086.687,"text":"這個相關軍用車輛上國防如何補救。（第二目前已提供戰鬥模式設定服務廠商其報價落差每輛車輛新台幣一萬兩千六至六千兩百六萬兩千七百等不等報價差距高達五倍軍方是否落實來詢價而且調查這樣的一個問題"},{"start":27090.289,"end":27114.395,"text":"因為這是非常嚴重因為我這邊已經調查清楚麻煩你們在一個禮拜內把這些細數的報告要給本席作為追溯未來是否有引用這個黃色鏈這個部分我下來了解一下以後馬上跟委員回應謝謝委員 像這樣重大的事情"},{"start":27118.306,"end":27118.886,"text":"臨近現委員臨近現委員臨近現委員"},{"start":27160.348,"end":27161.571,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"},{"start":27172.497,"end":27190.699,"text":"院長好賴清德總統昨天已經表明針對藍白國會擴權的惡法會向憲法法庭申請釋憲及暫時處分以守護國家的憲政體系也深化台灣的民主守護人民的權利那其實不只總統"},{"start":27192.16,"end":27215.014,"text":"行政院還有立法院的民進黨團還有監察院也都有表態要申請釋憲那然而我想在違憲疑慮都還沒有獲得釐清之前民眾黨的黃國昌宣稱要立刻啟動國會聽證調查那請問院長你怎麼看民眾黨這樣的作為那依行政院的立場要對在野黨有什麼樣的呼籲"},{"start":27216.447,"end":27221.702,"text":"謝謝委員就是因為包括總統府、行政院跟監察院"},{"start":27222.711,"end":27249.051,"text":"都提出了對這個法案違憲的一些疑慮所以都有接下來的包括立法院黨團民進黨黨團所以我們想應該在維持憲政秩序穩定的狀態底下應該讓大法官的憲法法庭做最後裁定之後這個法到底可行不可行違憲不違憲那時候才會確定下來在此之前我認為所有的憲政機關都應該以穩定憲政為前提"},{"start":27252.213,"end":27278.565,"text":"為優先應該按耐不動不要去碰觸將來可能違憲的事情否則任何一個國人任何一個民意代表牽涉到違憲的情況之下他的責任是沒有辦法去比擬的行政院對來就是我們會依照是憲政機關的角色跟我們應該有的職責我們會嚴厲但今天這個法案昨天剛剛總統簽過還沒有正式生效我們生效之後才有下一步的動作"},{"start":27279.685,"end":27301.499,"text":"那再來要跟院長討論就是說中國最近說要嚴懲台獨份子那不但可以進行缺席審判那最重要還可以辦到死刑那我想在臺灣每個人都是台獨份子每個人也可以都不是台獨份子怎麼說呢首先只是生活在臺灣只要生活在臺灣我想每一個人每一天"},{"start":27302.079,"end":27302.219,"text":"（6月25日（"},{"start":27332.199,"end":27359.668,"text":"根據中國的標準你覺得你自己背了幾條死罪然後對於中國的放話你有什麼樣的回應因為他對我們沒有司法管轄權所以我不認為我背任何死罪我活著為台灣就好了所以一個不民主而且法治不完備的政權透過他的法治不完備來侵犯台灣的民主這是天大的笑話所以我說行政院的立場保護在國內的國民"},{"start":27360.928,"end":27389.822,"text":"也希望我們去到國外的人因為你有這張護照你必須去到當地國因為你可以進出他就必須當地國政府必須保障你的人身自由但是要去到大陸不管你做任何的訪問或是往來你必須清楚知道有沒有能力保護你自己因為他現在對我們是非常消極的但是手段是非常惡毒的你必須能夠保護自己否則我們真的勸全國的國人應該三思而後行"},{"start":27391.108,"end":27408.92,"text":"對,因為就是如同您說的,中國無權來恣意對我國國民進行所謂的制裁。那可是一旦踏入您所說的就像踏入中國一樣,或者踏入比他跟中國友好而且親友司法引渡條例的這個國家,那我想我們就不可不慎了。"},{"start":27409.821,"end":27434.404,"text":"好那接下來要跟院長討論就是說立委附中納管的問題也就是沈博洋委員首先提出的那本席跟多位民進黨委員也有後續提出那像我本席的案子今天又在國民黨跟民眾黨聯手之下在程序委員會被封殺了齁好那這個條例就是兩岸人民關係條例的修正案那在我們的提案中有規範與國家秘密"},{"start":27435.044,"end":27463.365,"text":"國家安全相關人員若要前往中國就必須要行前申請經過審查而且在中國如果跟黨政軍相關人員有接觸還要申報他接觸的這個狀況交往的情形跟內容那當然我們很清楚知道我們的提案是以台灣保護台灣國家安全的立場為出發點那在中國無所不用其極的打壓台灣的主權跟國人安全的狀態之下我想為了維護國人的安全立委"},{"start":27464.346,"end":27491.988,"text":"及牽涉國家秘密人員的納官附中納官附中納管的規範我覺得就相當的重要實際上我國立委附中交流有極高的機率是因為民選公職的身份會涉及台獨就像中國現在宣示他這種處罰條款會最終會羅織這很多的莫名的罪狀他會送辦所以請問院長如果在這樣的狀況之下我國"},{"start":27492.588,"end":27492.908,"text":"那院長你怎麼看?"},{"start":27511.012,"end":27529.423,"text":"謝謝委員,也許換一個角度來看,立委是國會議員,也是國家重要的政治工作者,他要去到一個我們認為不是安全的地方,如果讓政府能夠提早事先知道,或是國會裡面有一套自我管理的這個權利,我們也會比較有能力"},{"start":27530.023,"end":27551.864,"text":"知道他的行蹤能夠預先知道他的危險性從這個角度來看是不是可以支持這個而且這不是一種管理的方式這只是讓大家掌握更多的國家資源跟重要人士的進出國門的這個狀態那麼他去到一些安全的國家我們甚至我們不會對他有任何的了解都不需要"},{"start":27552.324,"end":27561.077,"text":"但是去到特殊的地方不安全的地方對人生有威脅的地方我想政府跟人民都有這樣的義務來保障國家重要的資產"},{"start":27562.686,"end":27589.372,"text":"另外跟院長說明5月29日本席在內政委員會有質詢立委副中納管這個問題的時候那時候梁文傑副主委他的回應是說就立委會的立場而言前往中國接受虛數審查的人員在現行兩岸人民關係條例裡面其實就有包括立法院的人員但是長久以來立法院都沒有按照兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":27590.612,"end":27612.111,"text":"所要求去提列那些前往中國的人員那梁副主委有強調他說針對立法院長期違規的這件事情陸委會曾經行文立法院那立法院從來沒有回覆那從經察院到地方法院到全國各機關人員都會接受附中的審查可是唯獨立法院不遵守"},{"start":27612.791,"end":27636.826,"text":"那我想在這個質詢之後那個梁副主委陸委會也進一步透過書面的回答他說實務上政府總統除了立法院之外的四院院長、政務官、地方首長跟及其機關內所涉及國家安全利益跟機密業務的人員其實都依人民兩岸關係條例第9條跟國家機密保護條"},{"start":27637.486,"end":27637.506,"text":"請問院長﹖"},{"start":27662.108,"end":27670.725,"text":"對於立法院知法犯法的行為這個開法了嗎那該如何要嚴格執法讓立法院可以遵守這個規範"},{"start":27672.516,"end":27695.809,"text":"我舉這個在過去的執行過程當中我必須承認這個可能過去並沒有在這個重點上去做任何的處理但是我是尊重大院裡面對未來修法的過程但是還是希望經過民主的討論是公開的討論那現在重要的人士去到中國大陸我們都覺得對他的人身安全確實很有擔心我這兩天就很擔心王前院長"},{"start":27697.318,"end":27709.132,"text":"我希望他安全的回來告訴我們將來如何保護自己的安全如果這個是一個過程的話那我們希望說能夠促進大家更有效的對自己人身安全的顧慮跟保障這個才是重要的"},{"start":27709.428,"end":27730.784,"text":"好,那再來要跟院長談到中正紀念壇的轉型的問題。利用國家資源,然後強迫全民浪費紀念獨裁者,這件極度不合理的事情,我從大學時期就一路反對到現在。在教育委員會裡面,包括李永德部長、史哲部長、現在的李遠部長也都被我質詢過這一題。"},{"start":27732.245,"end":27756.324,"text":"那我想在院會我也跟孫昌院長討論過就是促轉會提出任務總結報告後各部會的轉型正義的工作的交接狀況那根據促轉會的總結報告我進一步有在院會跟陳建仁院長有討論過在中正進黨的轉型的過程中有一件事情是此時此刻我們就可以做的就是撤離三軍儀隊又或者至少讓三軍儀隊離開堂體"},{"start":27759.366,"end":27787.972,"text":"改註所在升旗台那裡（那（把原先對獨裁者的崇拜轉換則對國家的效忠。（那6月11日顧部長有回答邱志偉委員的答詢的時候您個人的看法有說一對是可以移到自由廣場進行操練也等於說回應了本席長期的倡議喔那不過今天想要進一步跟院長跟部長請教的是第一若使這些作為的時間"},{"start":27789.272,"end":27819.032,"text":"第二,就是上一次針對這項議題的詢答,昨天院長也有提到說,如果三軍一隊駐守在中列慈,那這種代表的是我們對壯烈犧牲官兵的尊敬,那造成的爭議就不會像住房在中正建堂那麼大。換句話說,三軍一隊為什麼住房的背後的意義跟論述非常的重要?所以我們現在才回頭來請教,那三軍一隊如果真的移往所謂的自由廣場,那它的代表的意義是什麼?"},{"start":27820.073,"end":27822.275,"text":"國防部副委員操練的意義是什麼?"},{"start":27822.275,"end":27824.477,"text":"是觀光嗎?"},{"start":27824.477,"end":27839.953,"text":"部長先回答。 跟委員報告,因為三菁儀殿現在有關他要如何進行操演,現在是文化部在主管。 那我們觀光部已經跟文化部已經經過,我不曉得應該有一兩三次的協調。"},{"start":27841.794,"end":27843.035,"text":"所以是文化部主導嗎?"},{"start":27843.035,"end":27843.495,"text":"我們國防部是完全配合"},{"start":27868.03,"end":27887.38,"text":"國防部完全配合文化部,所以文化部在規劃。 議長拜託這個時間不要再拖了。我期待下一個會期的質詢就不要再質詢這個議題了。 我們都應該承認中正紀念堂的定義跟他的意義社會上還是存在不同的看法的。那我們現在"},{"start":27888.993,"end":27906.223,"text":"國防部跟文化部就是在掃尋一個大家最能夠接受共識最高的方式同樣表達我們對國家過去歷史的一個認知但是也讓更多的民眾可以在更寬廣的地方看得到這種儀隊的表演代表國家的一種軍隊文化對國家的效忠對沒錯"},{"start":27907.063,"end":27923.158,"text":"好那拜託這件事情儘速處理假設有共識的話那另外我想最後要跟院長探討五一勞動節全國一致性放假這個議題喔院長其實這個議題本身做了很久我在2020選第一次立委的時候就把這個議題放進我的政見裡面"},{"start":27924.159,"end":27953.14,"text":"那當上立委之後我就馬上跟當時的蘇貞昌院長提議這件事情那後來陳建仁院長上任我也一直跟他倡議那我想對於勞動解放假這個議題本席不斷的跟中央真的耳提面面那好不容易在去年在今年陳建仁院長有說好好的要來研議那可能會有一些共識要作為全國性一致放假的這個"},{"start":27953.86,"end":27954.06,"text":"．6月30日"},{"start":27970.422,"end":27998.037,"text":"前會公布今年的行事曆那表示明年的行事曆今年6月30號會公布那所以好我想要請問院長的是這件事情到底有沒有譜就是說明年五一勞動節全面放假這件事確實如委員所說這個明年的行事曆現在在行政院裡面他正在尋一定的程序在往上來處理那"},{"start":27999.938,"end":28024.83,"text":"我們對於勞工的尊重跟理解我們五一勞動節是勞工有放假但是其他的也有類似這樣的單一職業別或類別的假期是沒有放假的那這個我們從常來規劃因為我們現在全國一年當中的放假日已經達到117天了117天比過去又多了幾天所以在這樣的情況底下我們必須考慮到勞僱雙方的關係還有整個社會其他層面的影響"},{"start":28025.41,"end":28052.125,"text":"但是現在既然這個案已經在院內裡面在處理我們就用一種全新的感覺去感覺說這個到底對社會的因為院長這個假日是對這個產業衝擊最小因為本來就放假產業本來就放假反而是軍公教不放假這個假設是一個學校的話一個公立學校那老師學生都要去上課可是由裡面的工友裡面的雛工"},{"start":28052.765,"end":28054.907,"text":"假日對於家庭就是一個所謂的全家享天倫之樂的一個很好的規劃。"},{"start":28082.708,"end":28103.444,"text":"我們再繼續研究,謝謝委員指教,謝謝。謝謝林益錦委員的諮詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第5號王定宇委員諮詢改書面諮詢。我們再接下來請登記第6號陳永康委員諮詢。"},{"start":28119.407,"end":28133.631,"text":"主席各位立委同仁各位今天與會的部會首長大家午安特別感謝今天給我這個機會那麼有機會跟院長請議請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選陳國賢好院長好我今天回想到在10年前"},{"start":28147.432,"end":28167.267,"text":"我也曾經就站在您的左邊這個位置﹖當年是面對立委的質詢﹖因為誤換心儀﹖這個角色互換﹖當年質詢我的委員﹖很多今天都成為您內閣的菁英閣員﹖雖然角色互換了﹖但是對國家安全的期許﹖"},{"start":28168.197,"end":28187.443,"text":"社會福祉的維持人民權益的維護應該是理想不變眼光不變因此我覺得今天質詢中間的距離啊不會那麼遠那麼個人過去在40年的軍旅生涯中間呢大部分都是直來直往那麼有的時候也就是貫徹命令"},{"start":28189.486,"end":28206.021,"text":"我個人感受我可能是立法院裡面用語言表達最不適宜、最不妥善的一位委員。 所以我幾乎要用圖表來協助向院長請議。 在3月12日的時候在前任的陳院長期間"},{"start":28207.402,"end":28235.07,"text":"我們曾經提到了人才培養軍事教育訓練以及國家安全戰略的法制化另外還有一部分就是未來的醫療系統科技的管理在這裡面因為當時我們得到共識雖然現在的狀況產生了微微的變化但是我個人覺得這個題目還是有延伸性很高興顧部長現在已經主動到台前我們這邊可以看到"},{"start":28236.03,"end":28250.374,"text":"我們國家安全的目標是所有國人必須要知道的事。國家安全的方向是因為部會各部會都要掌握的事。至於國家安全的手段是執行必須要落實的事。"},{"start":28252.861,"end":28278.276,"text":"由於我們目前沒有法定的國家安全戰略的文件﹖所以資源分配上是不平均﹖跨部會的協商有它的困難﹖策略的執行不容易﹖法制不夠周延﹖這個問題是二、三十年前一路累積下來的﹖不是針對性的﹖但是因為施政不容易同步﹖政策難以持續﹖因此在各個層級任務編組過多﹖"},{"start":28280.777,"end":28293.238,"text":"（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日上午1時50分為處理�"},{"start":28294.167,"end":28304.433,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日"},{"start":28325.558,"end":28326.618,"text":"國家安全社會堅韌民心安地經濟繁榮軍事堅強太海和平"},{"start":28355.37,"end":28383.591,"text":"他所有的連結都跟治安有關但實際上他的外圍包括了就是國家安全戰略的八個面向政治外交經濟軍事這涉及到兩岸的關係能源社會醫療產業他是基建基礎建設所以我們要做管控分歧做風險控管做情勢的控管做衝突的控管"},{"start":28385.01,"end":28402.205,"text":"在基建部分是風險、禦印、災難管制、災害管制、災損管制。 在這個環節內,我們政府的領導、總統、國安會、行政院、國防外交、陸委會是環環相扣。"},{"start":28404.577,"end":28428.447,"text":"現在的總統提出了新的委員會當然可能是跟我們部分行政院的工作是有部分重疊所以他這個組織架構下將來希望在建制的框架下比較有明確的定義這樣在有限的資源分工下是比較可以落實希望不要重複浪費人力但是成果我們是希望累積"},{"start":28431.121,"end":28443.015,"text":"各位看一下這個就是我們國家安全戰略發展的一個方式這是一個methodology在圖的右側是國內情勢影響及趨勢"},{"start":28444.929,"end":28461.189,"text":"在左側是全球環境影響及趨勢,左邊是動態比較大,右邊是國內的靜態比較可控制,但是這兩項產生的因素都直接影響到我們的評估,也就是我們的幾個重要"},{"start":28462.81,"end":28485.617,"text":"范畴包括兩岸政策外交政策國防政策經濟政策能源政策資安政策未還政策人口政策這個都是國安戰略裡面的環節而不是純軍事的問題現在再把總統提出來的這幾個重點再跟原先列舉動態靜態相關的我們把它的重疊領域性找出來"},{"start":28486.974,"end":28514.862,"text":"理想的過程常常我們常說無縫接軌但是無縫接軌實際上只有單線鐵路叫無縫接軌如果有雙線交叉有多重配置必然會有重置性而不是單一的想法那最後我用美國的國家安全戰略來顯示我們跟美國學習了這麼多年但是精髓啊並沒有完全掌握到"},{"start":28515.896,"end":28539.291,"text":"他的國家安全戰略裡面包括了國家的利益目標還有他的優先順序那麼如何去整合國家的實力包括國家安全的方向但是他下面的國防戰略就跟他有重疊性包括戰略的背景因素包括戰略的目的如何完成目標"},{"start":28540.82,"end":28562.696,"text":"實施國家安全戰略的方法論導引方式．最後風險的控管。．從國家安全戰略底下又有了國防軍事戰略也就是從上到下有他政策的指導由下到上有實力的支撐這上下之間要同步調現在看一下美國"},{"start":28566.018,"end":28587.932,"text":"每四年每兩年都出的刊物這都是公開的當然還有機密本我們在2021年出了我們的四年期國防總檢討那麼2023年出了我們的國防政策白皮書左側因為目前"},{"start":28589.226,"end":28596.07,"text":"沒有法定國家安全戰略的文件也就是沒有明確的從上到下的政策指導我在想這個顧部長日理萬機可能還沒有時間去看這兩本刊物這個我們的四年期國防總檢討一共48頁中間講到"},{"start":28619.958,"end":28644.133,"text":"國防戰略軍事戰略一頁半2023年的這個國防戰略軍事戰略在這本書裡面183頁講到戰略一共三頁半也就是說整本的書啊多半都是這個美編的圖集卡通示意圖"},{"start":28646.903,"end":28672.763,"text":"美國國會在2017年取消了四年期國防總檢討。我也面對過美國參加聽證的前政府官員。他說因為四年期總檢,雖然每四年發行一次,但每年開會,大部分是由下屬單位上百人共同創作,寫出這本東西來。因此他聚焦在美國國防產業區域性的利益。"},{"start":28674.107,"end":28685.316,"text":"（6月25日上午9時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理�"},{"start":28701.569,"end":28703.771,"text":"我們給各位看一張這個圖這是一個東北亞整個大區域的圖經過異地空間資訊系統的校正"},{"start":28733.176,"end":28745.444,"text":"這個是在總統就職之前去年的1月9號中共發射的火箭從西艙但是因為它是用平面的突擊來顯示這個狀況那麼產生了一些錯誤的狀況"},{"start":28752.688,"end":28780.385,"text":"如果能夠用3D的圖示顯示發射位置發射時間就發現它的衛星通過我們本島上空是600公里那算太空因此不形成威脅但是那一次啊發布了國家級的防空警報這個事過境遷但是國防部現在已經改進在這一次中共預備發射衛星可能是明天發射那麼國防部已經明速說這個是走太空並不影響我們的空域安全"},{"start":28783.835,"end":28812.444,"text":"這個是兩年前培洛西訪問造成中共一個威者武嚇的實彈軍演就是發射導彈飛越台灣上空但是當時我們並沒有用這個3D的圖像來做解釋所以只有左上角的那個平面顯示我們根據的資料國防部沒有發布是日本公布的所以根據這個資料我們來模擬看它產生的彈道實際上都是在太空平流程以上"},{"start":28817.571,"end":28822.852,"text":"這就是他的彈道拋物線那麼我們希望將來國防部跟這個"},{"start":28824.38,"end":28847.719,"text":"科技部甚至太空中心有橫向聯繫在衛星導控跟發射的軌跡部分能夠共同合作用這種圖像來看當時有三枚飛彈其實是飛越新竹科學園區那這個圖像目前我們國內尚沒有機會來做模擬展示但是這個告訴我們一個就是用二維的圖跟三維的圖你會有不同的判斷"},{"start":28852.366,"end":28868.059,"text":"有關剛才前面黃榮委員提到聯合立見我的建議是我們要把格局放大要有宏觀的大區塊也有圍觀的細節要把它整合起來所以我們看到並不是上面那塊上面這塊的圖是國防部發布的"},{"start":28870.497,"end":28896.771,"text":"我幫國防部的解讀是說他的巡邏區跟中共的不同 這個表示我們國軍拒止中共的艦機在24里之外但是共軍的圖是劃到12里 這表示我們國軍的付出辛勞是能夠守衛我們的疆土但是這個一般的老百姓看不懂圖 所以圖要套疊圖要校正 那麼同時各位看到右邊的這個圖"},{"start":28898.032,"end":28904.659,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":28921.618,"end":28922.979,"text":"（6月25日．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":28939.827,"end":28962.557,"text":"上面這個圖就是顯示這是今天早上7點30分我把共機擾台的圖機套到圖像上我們一定要用圖像套疊才能把不同的時間不同的位置不同的事件不同的動態最後研派出它不同的意圖做長官的判斷而不是用單一圖像"},{"start":28963.197,"end":28977.128,"text":"未來在國土辦公室或是在國防部乃至於國安會我建議設立這種模擬虛擬的戰情顯示可以把不同的場景圖像而不是開會每人帶張紙做個簡報長官非常難收斂這種動態變化的情勢"},{"start":28984.552,"end":28999.907,"text":"2月14日金門因為中共三無遺傳違法越界至於我們執法的過程中產生差狀這個問題還沒有解決當時我跟前院長在報告的時候我是列舉了14項"},{"start":29001.508,"end":29029.66,"text":"但是因為在狀況在變化所以我們繼續修正今天有18項這個法制的流程最後就是因為現在我們很多的依據是兩岸人民關係條例那麼事實上在太平島不在我們的領海基線化內所有的外島都不是我們的領海基線化定內所以在執法的過程上雙方的溝通用什麼條例來引述是很重要另外一個就是必須用標準的圖"},{"start":29030.86,"end":29032.961,"text":"（6月25日．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":29047.622,"end":29076.199,"text":"共軍潛艦通過海峽那有許多的外面的媒體名嘴專家有各種的論述其實臺灣海峽的水非常淺尤其是在臺灣灘水深大概只有三四十公尺所以共軍的潛艦不管何潛艦傳統潛艦如果要回他的原造船船去修他一定是在海峽中線以西浮航那麼這張圖裡面包括海圖海底圖"},{"start":29077.432,"end":29078.472,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午5時"},{"start":29107.763,"end":29133.152,"text":"以當時的金門的雷達看,4點鐘就應該發現它了,所以國軍是有保持偵測到,只是老百姓公佈了以後,外面就產生了很多的敘述。我在這邊提出的是說不要看小區塊,要用整個一個大區塊圖,包括細緻的圖,包括當時海底圖,岸上的地藏圖,離岸風機,海上航行安全,用這個圖來做一個客觀的判斷。"},{"start":29137.643,"end":29153.453,"text":"剛才是一張衛照圖再套上南海的海圖再套上我們航空圖這都經過校正各位看這個航圖可以連接到海圖上面的菲律賓的基線是校正過的"},{"start":29155.726,"end":29178.426,"text":"這是所有南海人造島礁或是人工造島的島根據比例把它的標準位置把它顯示出來比方講今天的報紙講菲律賓在擴大新建中葉島在蓋機堡那中共當然是反彈但中葉島在1971年原來是我們的因為防台國軍撤離菲律賓佔領現在已經超過50年了繼承事實"},{"start":29182.349,"end":29206.642,"text":"目前在仁愛礁那邊我個人的研究菲律賓跟中共還是以海巡執法不會變成真正的軍事衝突但其中有一個重點就是黃岩島黃岩島是我們中華民國領海法裡面標註的但是這個外交部的立場要向非方表示"},{"start":29208.241,"end":29222.631,"text":"主權在運輸上是不讓但是在真正的海上執法過程中間很多還是可以探討但是這個要強調因為這是我們內政部公布的在左上角的臨海反面黃岩島是我們的臨海用這張圖來顯示一下如果我們建立一個虛擬的戰情勢"},{"start":29233.741,"end":29248.929,"text":"不管是在國防部不管是在行政院國土這個安全辦公室或者在國安會你可以透過資料庫我們現在已經建立這個資料檔所以你可以看到不同的裡面的圖像啊各個顯示出來動態繼續做動態的要向大家報告是因為我們立法院的電腦啊"},{"start":29263.612,"end":29267.055,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":29292.469,"end":29298.974,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日"},{"start":29321.758,"end":29349.13,"text":"攻擊老台的時候我們國安部展示我們把它驅離的位置在套上中共顯示的位置這名國軍把它驅離在24里並沒有讓它進到12里用這個共同圖像是可以提供所有做決策高階政策下達人一個客觀的判斷他是一個工具是一個方法論而不要用傳統的簡報圖每人三張紙這個時候高階長官是很難收斂的"},{"start":29351.424,"end":29367.488,"text":"現在就要談到教育了曾國藩曾經講過忠心以文才為本但今天很多年輕人也許不知道曾國藩是誰了"},{"start":29368.41,"end":29394.255,"text":"但健賢思齊有為者亦或是,我相信年輕人都知道,但現在的健賢思齊可能不是學者,可能不是政治人物,而是我們高科技,可能是台積電的張忠謀,可能是這個黃仁勳,年輕人優秀的通通都只要是理工的,通通足科去了,所以我們要看一下兩岸教育的投資,"},{"start":29397.211,"end":29420.381,"text":"這是我們國內前七大這是大陸的前七大清華大學最高它是臺大的五倍每人每年平均的投資費南京大學是最低的它也是海洋大學的4.03倍所以這個給我們一個警訊就是說"},{"start":29421.664,"end":29444.927,"text":"大陸在人才培養上他跟你競爭他高科技但是他投資在教育上面那這個是國內的七大在跟我們國軍的學校軍事教育再做個比較臺大是我們軍事院校的2.8倍海大是最低的也是我們的1.3倍"},{"start":29446.633,"end":29474.511,"text":"但這邊我提請部長一個注意點就是根據美國國防安和局安全合作局他公布的資料過去10年來我們的軍售軍售投資就是Foreign military saleFMS總共是255億美元換算成台幣每年10年每年是770億投資在軍售但是我們的軍事教育"},{"start":29476.834,"end":29498.149,"text":"只有20餘億元如果不加速增加教育的投資提升軍校的數值我們是很難有效運用這些先進的武器做成有效的管理第一個所有武器裝備它的操作手冊、維保手冊、作戰準則教範全部是英文版"},{"start":29499.605,"end":29527.591,"text":"那那AIT的這個處長要調回國了．他曾經講說我們基層官兵的英文素質閱讀能力要趕快提升越先進的武器越好的裝備你不能夠瞭解他的操作手冊不瞭解他的準則教範所以我們將來軍售的投資不僅只於買武器裝備人才培養大幅提升"},{"start":29528.697,"end":29537.099,"text":"．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":29556.119,"end":29578.064,"text":"教育部有高等教育深耕計劃,今年編了100多億,但是國軍沒有在裡面有這個額度。在104年到106年,我當時曾經向當時的教育部長江偉寧爭取到給國防醫學院的這個經費,因此在當年的"},{"start":29579.226,"end":29604.462,"text":"八仙城報、粉城報、699個燒燙商．國軍收容了65個．零傷亡．為什麼．我們當時在那個經費．投資在燒燙商．那麼今天國家有任何意外災難．國軍的意願是全部投入．當時燒燙商、八仙城報的當天晚上．我們動員了300個醫生．護士、緊急人員．"},{"start":29608.78,"end":29610.162,"text":"（6月25日．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":29623.08,"end":29648.419,"text":"因為我們每年都受到他的教學評鑑、師資評鑑。 我們用的是同一個標準的教育體制。 國軍不應該排除在外。 那至於我們國軍教育本身, 建請部長要考慮趕快提升教育經費。 因為老師的額度受限於編制, 但是我們可以請好手、請高手用特殊的講座方式。"},{"start":29649.534,"end":29653.675,"text":"報告委員我們有兩個學校包括國防醫學院跟理工大學已經在深耕計畫裏面我請部長再說明一下對我了解但是這個是國防部的錢"},{"start":29673.837,"end":29700.851,"text":"我們建議由這個教育部來cover,就是說深耕計畫因為教育部可以統一申請,國防部不應該,國防部我自己撥給他就行了,隨便他叫什麼計畫,這個是可以區隔的,當然我們也肯定部長同意給他,但是這個額度是不夠的,也就是說一年花了770億美元台幣買裝備,但是投資在,我們這邊是寫8所,其實我們13所軍事院校,"},{"start":29701.96,"end":29724.436,"text":"整個的經費就這麼多所以要考慮未來有卓越的領導人才接受先進的武器系統要能夠管理要能夠有宏觀有世界觀能夠運用科技需要投資培養那麼最後一個我要做一個解釋我們中山科學院的基礎從1956年成立在1980年代這個"},{"start":29729.761,"end":29755.052,"text":"李國鼎先生推薦,毫不稱前院長從美國邀請了一個黃孝宗博士,他是美國NASA太空總署太空計劃火箭推進的主持人,做了兩個主持人回國,把中科院奠定了所有的基礎。那麼今天我們有6個所,5個中心,並擁有關鍵技術科研的21個案,全部是據證式的管理。"},{"start":29756.323,"end":29760.786,"text":"．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":29781.991,"end":29793.682,"text":"．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日下午1"},{"start":29801.464,"end":29816.865,"text":"打破很多的計畫做出來可能數字高格三年後發現別人跟上我可以拿出來用所以研發計畫應該允許有失敗而不是零失敗那在這個層級水平的分割上面一定要有重置性"},{"start":29818.404,"end":29842.312,"text":"我曾經在中科院擔任董事也提供了建言尤其是部長是法律的專家很多的跟國外廠商的簽約的過程中間我們希望我們的法尊法治人員從開始就要介入今天設限於時間有限我的問詢到這邊我要請一下院長做一些您對今天看法的陳腐"},{"start":29843.735,"end":29860.234,"text":"非常謝謝陳委員。其實從陳委員21日到立法院到國會來以後在許多關鍵的時刻都聽不到委員的一些看法我就表示非常的敬佩尤其今天看到剛剛的3D的圖像我覺得那個給我們是一個相當大的一個"},{"start":29861.186,"end":29861.206,"text":"市長﹖"},{"start":29890.104,"end":29911.161,"text":"部長您這邊跟委員報告我想剛剛委員指教很多我上次去拜訪委員的時候委員也有展示有類似的這樣子的一個動態的一個戰警顯示然後給我們看我覺得這個國防部回去要確實是要好好研究一下像這樣子的一個這種比較"},{"start":29912.482,"end":29932.896,"text":"應該是三維吧,這種顯示的方式,我們應該會來研究一下。那你剛提到那個陸軍的那個UTM的我們現在也應該在進行當中,也就是要將他地圖要數位化就要採數位地圖,這個應該沒有問題。那另外就是說那個有關"},{"start":29934.417,"end":29946.842,"text":"軍事院校的這個教育行政的預算我們現在是列入作業維持會裡面那今年我們也打算要增加大概114年預算需求"},{"start":29961.784,"end":29963.048,"text":"謝謝陳永康委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長國防部的備詢。"},{"start":29967.988,"end":29995.932,"text":"報告委員會外交及國防委員會之質詢已詢答完畢。 我們謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席的答詢。 現在作以下決定。 下次會議進行經濟組之質詢。 報告委員會現在我們繼續處理覆議案。 本院民進黨黨團針對第18次會議報告事項第6案、15案、16案之決定提出覆議。 請公決案。 我們現在作以下決定。"},{"start":29996.417,"end":30001.946,"text":"令定期處理。 報告委員會本次會議進行到此為止。 我們現在散會。 謝謝主委長。 謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154181","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154181","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fbd52f49e26ee5ca264c867c7a3ae89c54160a2b78e90c253b87e74d03d353af155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"15:02:57 - 15:19:00","影片長度":"00:16:03","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T15:02:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T15:19:00+08:00","duration":963,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":78,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（15時3分）院長，我請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["謝委員龍介：卓院長好，辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好，不會，應該的。"],["謝委員龍介：你一生忠正，我觀察你是謹言慎行，我個人很欣賞也很欽佩。"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢，不敢。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你知道我們說的河洛話，我說漢文臺語也好，河洛話也好，臺灣話也好，是真真正正的中原文化，你有理解嗎？當初從隋朝開始，有一本書叫做切韻；一直到唐朝這本書教你發音叫做唐韻；到宋朝叫做廣韻；到清朝叫做康熙字典；到清末1800年左右，南安人黃謙出一本彙音妙悟；一直到1954年，臺灣人梅山沈富進先生出一本彙音寶鑑，所以臺灣話是句句有音有字，我不知道你有沒有理解？"],["卓院長榮泰：很敬佩委員對臺語文化這樣……"],["謝委員龍介：不用敬佩。"],["卓院長榮泰：自古早開始講起……"],["謝委員龍介：你要和我一起努力，我看你們也沒有在努力啊！讓這群愛臺灣的人、過去支持你的人很感慨，怎麼現在變成國民黨的謝龍介在推展漢文臺語？","你們說愛臺灣，說到都忘記，現在都只是愛臺幣而已，我覺得很不好意思，我認為政治人物不是每個都這樣的，雖有少數害群之馬，但多數人還是愛這塊土地。我今天送你這本書是相當有意義的──彙音寶鑑，所有你看得到的漢字都有對應的臺語發音，像是在查國語字典一樣，你如果會查國語字典就會用，我這裡有一個USB，你回去聽一次，下次你來到這裡就可以對答如流。","孔子有言：君子恥其言而過其行。就是說「講一畚箕，做無一湯匙」丟人現眼！孔子也有說：古者言之不出，恥躬之不逮也。就是不隨便做承諾，因為怕做不到，這是很漏氣、很丟臉的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["謝委員龍介：我看你跟很多委員的應答，包括國民住宅、社會住宅，你不會設定一個高標的數字，這樣很好，你不要被賴清德帶壞……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！"],["謝委員龍介：我等下給你看，他都亂說……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！"],["謝委員龍介：什麼不會？他在選舉時都亂講，說520要蓋20萬戶，你看連蔡總統那邊都算進去，事實上就是沒有，沒有就換了一個「漏氣」回來啊！但是你的態度不錯，包括我們的前副院長詢問你，包括在羅廷瑋和其他委員質詢問你的時候。我跟你說，做得到比較重要，務實做事情，不要用數字包裝，所以你不要被賴清德帶壞……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！不會啦！"],["謝委員龍介：真的不會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！"],["謝委員龍介：不會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["謝委員龍介：確定嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他對國家的方向是很正確的，這個國家會往好的方向走，這樣就是了。"],["謝委員龍介：「細漢偷挽匏，大漢偷牽牛」你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！不會「偷挽匏」啦……"],["謝委員龍介：怎麼沒有？來，我們來看一下！","（播放影片）"],["謝委員龍介：怎麼會沒有聲音？再重放一遍。","（播放影片）"],["謝委員龍介：再放一遍給你聽，你要認真聽喔！前面你沒聽到，你注意聽。","（播放影片）"],["謝委員龍介：你有聽到嗎？他說：有本事你先辭職。我說：我辭職你就辭職嗎？他說：對，有本事你先辭職。他以為我不敢辭職，我就辭職了。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛才他是說，要辭職你先辭職啦！"],["謝委員龍介：他說：對，有本事你先辭職。"],["卓院長榮泰：是要辭職你先辭職……"],["謝委員龍介：對啊！他說：有本事你先辭職。我說，我辭職你就辭職嗎？他說：對，有本事你先辭職。「對」是要兩支都一樣的，我跟你講，他當時……","所以政治，當然我為此付出代價，我整個服務處的人要繼續運作，鄉親怪我說：我們和你的契約是4年耶！你怎麼可以辭職？對此我付出了代價，所以我要跟你說，說話要慎重，像他說的話風一吹就被吹走了；說到山盟海誓了，結果一逼他，他就躲起來，說昨晚不好意思了。我給你看一下他自己說過的話，但現在不到一個月的時間，這個事情就被整個翻轉過來了，來，請看一下。","（播放影片）"],["謝委員龍介：你看……"],["卓院長榮泰：他的態度並無改變。"],["謝委員龍介：他說得十分有氣魄，對啊！態度不錯啊！結果現在立法院才通過而已，他就縮回去了，跑去藏龍……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，總統的態度並沒有改變，只要立法院開會的時候邀請他來做國情報告，他就會來。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，你不要被他帶壞了，枉費我對你很欣賞，而且我比你還瞭解他啦！不要被他牽著走啦！如果你這樣被牽著走，很快你就會被換掉了，我告訴你，他想要把你拿來「替硬軟、撐到明年過年」，這個我實在看不下去，我實在不能接受……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會啦！不會啦！委員過去可能對總統……"],["謝委員龍介：你要堅持做你自己，到時候若他要辭掉你，我會挺你的，不用信他！哪有人這樣的，是他說話不算話，你是說話算話，你是君子，我並沒有說他是小人，我是說看他並不像君子，這樣聽得懂嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他是總統啦！"],["謝委員龍介：什麼總統！大家都可以選總統啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是！是！是！"],["謝委員龍介：總統沒有那麼厲害，但是在這裡我也說了，對國家的元首應該給他適當的禮遇，對不對？所以不一定是一問一答，但要有一個態度出來，結果時間未到他就害怕縮回了，這就是騙票嘛！說什麼他願意來立法院接受國情報告，接受立委的詢答，這是他自己說的喔！現在是怎樣？因為票騙得不夠漂亮，所以現在翻臉了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就當時立法院職權行使法所定的內容來說，他來國會做報告就是照那個方式，但是現在改變之後，大家要重新思考那個方式對總統是否適當……"],["謝委員龍介：這是在國會改革法案還沒有通過前他就說了，而且是公開說的……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們都有看到修法的內容……"],["謝委員龍介：所以他對憲法的認知是一日三市，昨天說這樣，今天說那樣，明天說這樣，不能這樣啦！……"],["卓院長榮泰：並不是如此！"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，你沒有比我更瞭解他……"],["卓院長榮泰：過去可能你比較瞭解他，但是這件事情……"],["謝委員龍介：你不用在這裡挺他，這沒必要，他的事情他要自己擔，各人造業各人擔……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們挺的是憲法的精神。"],["謝委員龍介：他這樣很好啊！跳下來第一線，我欣賞他！我給他按個讚！跳下來第一線，好啊！第一線來正面面對，民意對決，都沒問題，大家都會選舉，但不要用騙的方式，要務實，結果他現在一下子就縮回去，別忘了我在臺南市被他弄到，234天沒進來議會，這叫憲法嗎？這沒違憲嗎？市長不用進來給議員質詢，這樣沒違憲？這種違憲的事他做得可多了……"],["卓院長榮泰：那有歷史的原因……"],["謝委員龍介：不要再說歷史的原因了……"],["卓院長榮泰：這件事到現在也有很多人覺得那是正確的……"],["謝委員龍介：我是當事人，還有什麼歷史的原因？我當時就指責他了，你不讓誰質詢是你的事情，但我是臺南市民選出來的，你也是臺南市民選出來的，你怎麼可以不給我質詢？他也會不好意思……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是他並沒有耽誤市政的建設，市長該做的事情他做得很認真……"],["謝委員龍介：好，你說他沒耽誤市政的建設，我就講給你聽，我在第三年的時候問他：市長，做三年多了，你舉出到今天為止你有做的任何一件臺南市的建設，一件就好，如果有，我謝龍介當場就辭職，結果你們賴總統不回應……"],["卓院長榮泰：不好意思說吧！"],["謝委員龍介：好，經過5個月他被民進黨提名，在提名之後，你知道他對臺南市鄉親的第一句文宣說什麼？請你注意聽。各位臺南市民朋友，我是賴清德。過去四年我都在規劃未來四年我們臺南市的大進步。請問有哪個城市可以忍受一個市長四年任期都在做規劃？所以我問他：你做了哪一件建設？他不好意思回答。坦白說，是回答不出來！所以我才說你不要被他帶壞。我再放另一支影片讓你看，也請注意聽。","（播放影片）"],["謝委員龍介：態度出來！"],["卓院長榮泰：氣魄不錯！"],["謝委員龍介：哎喲，用氣魄包裝黑金？你夠厲害，你還替他說話？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是反黑金……"],["謝委員龍介：對，反黑金，但之後一件案子都沒查，所以責任在你肩上！"],["卓院長榮泰：司法機關在查。"],["謝委員龍介：責任在你肩上！"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["謝委員龍介：我信賴你，我不是那個「信賴」，我是信賴卓榮泰！如果不查黑金的話就是假的！即使你不查，那些東西我一樣可以拿出來講，不騙你！","今天有條新聞說中國大陸派人來監視我們的媒體。院長，明知道他們在監視我們的媒體，在操縱我們，你是不好意思抓，故意放他走嗎？有這種事嗎？媒體可以這樣報嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不可以啊！如果有這個事實的話……"],["謝委員龍介：如果有的話，為什麼放他走？"],["卓院長榮泰：對於所發生的事情是不是大家都知道，請陸委會……"],["謝委員龍介：大家都知道。我告訴你，如果真的有這件事，就正好和貴黨一樣。貴黨也利用很多媒體，甚至還有中央廚房，每天都在討論什麼？今天講韓國瑜，明天討論謝龍介；啊！徐巧芯冒出頭了，把他打死。每一臺都講同樣的！如果你說他們是這樣就對了……"],["卓院長榮泰：並沒有中央廚房！"],["謝委員龍介：你如果知道是這樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有中央廚房！"],["謝委員龍介：沒有？你回去查，我提供一個共同群組給你。我跟你說有，但是你說沒有？我不會說謊……"],["卓院長榮泰：群組是在交換……"],["謝委員龍介：孔子說，君子恥其言而過其行。我這個人可以選擇不講，但我絕不說謊！你要的資料我可以給你。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼你們要放他走？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，他是因為輪調回去了。"],["謝委員龍介：人都輪調回去了，所以話就隨便你們說了？到底有沒有這種事？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們現在會跟文化部、主管機關一起做行政調查。"],["謝委員龍介：都還沒調查就可以寫成這樣？硬是要把白布染黑嗎？還是真的要處理？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會依法處理。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽的是臺灣世代教育基金會的所有好朋友，歡迎你們。","報告院會，現在內政組的質詢已經詢答完畢，我們現在開始換組，換外交及國防組之質詢。現在我們休息10分鐘；10分鐘之後，我們開始進行國防外交的詢答，謝謝大家，謝謝。","休息（15時19分）","繼續開會（15時29分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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什麼在賣人,那些只有在選舉他就亂講了,說我理孔什麼,他要起二十萬號,你看總統那些都把他擁有了,就死心無,不然就漏氣,換一個漏氣回來,但是你的態度不錯就是說,包括我們的政府委員長在幫你報告樓庭委員,包括其他議員在講"},{"start":263.188,"end":290.43,"text":"我告訴你,做得到比較重要,不是做事情,不能用手裡來包裝,所以你不要叫我熱情地出牌,我看你一刀。﹏不會啦、不會啦﹏真的不會?﹏不會啦﹏不會?﹏不會﹏比較硬?﹏不會,他都對國家的風雄,如果這樣很正確,這個國家會有好的風雄,怕這樣就是啊。﹏世寒頭寒雨大寒的頭寒,世寒的頭寒不大寒的頭寒雨,你知道嗎?﹏沒有啦,沒有頭寒的頭寒啦﹏沒有,來來來,給我看看,來。﹏"},{"start":297.833,"end":298.874,"text":"阿該無聲阿?阿?阿?阿?阿?"},{"start":315.199,"end":318.162,"text":"謝龍介議員說到做到實現政治人物最重要的誠信。"},{"start":338.459,"end":339.14,"text":"他們的清白"},{"start":356.121,"end":371.432,"text":"謝龍介議員說到做到,實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到,實現政治人物最重要的誠信。 謝龍介議員說到做到,實現政治人物最重要的誠信。"},{"start":383.713,"end":393.461,"text":"主席他就是說要施理先施啦。他說對啊,有資料你先施啊。 要施理先施這樣。對啊,有資料你先施啊。 我說我施理就施他,他說對,有資料你先施。對要兩句一樣。 我要說,他當時是設定人,所以政敵,當然我有資料我付出代價。"},{"start":409.741,"end":410.081,"text":"我給你看一看。"},{"start":438.493,"end":444.678,"text":"立法院接受這個立法院的這個國情諮詢這是錯的這個是假訊息因為根據不管是根據憲法或是根據立法院職權刑事法總統都有義務"},{"start":463.915,"end":475.699,"text":"應立法院的要求．到國會去進行國情報告．接受立法委員的國情諮詢。 你看,他的態度並沒有改變。 國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":475.699,"end":476.219,"text":"態度不錯啊!"},{"start":476.219,"end":477.66,"text":"現在立法院一直在通過而已啊!"},{"start":477.66,"end":477.98,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":477.98,"end":478.76,"text":"現在立法院一直在通過而已啊!"},{"start":478.76,"end":479.16,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":479.16,"end":480.481,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":480.481,"end":481.261,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":481.261,"end":481.641,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":481.641,"end":481.941,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":481.941,"end":482.221,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":482.221,"end":482.942,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":482.942,"end":483.362,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":483.362,"end":484.422,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":484.422,"end":485.082,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!"},{"start":485.082,"end":485.563,"text":"國際氣氛有改變啊!國際"},{"start":493.237,"end":507.862,"text":"我比你更了解他啦,也有看他啦,你有看他到最後,你很快就被他挖了,我告訴你,他想把你拿來替他弄,說到沒年過年這個我看不下去,我的人最不要這樣啦。"},{"start":508.942,"end":508.962,"text":"﹚謝龍介﹚"},{"start":532.677,"end":541.048,"text":"不是總統 總統 大家都可以當孫總統啦 總統不太聰明欸 但是在這裡我也說了對國家的元首應該有合適的內容 對不對 所以一問一答不一定來 大家要一個態度出來"},{"start":551.739,"end":551.759,"text":"﹚謝龍介"},{"start":563.784,"end":565.786,"text":"現料無該遂,所以現在配備就對了。（6月25日．現料無該遂,所以現在配備就對了。"},{"start":582.561,"end":591.432,"text":"因為我們都有看到,跟修法的理論啦。（所以他對憲法在臨時1、2、3、4,常講這樣今天講的問題可以講這樣嗎?（不是這樣啦,我跟你說,你沒必要我更了解,你沒在這裡聽他,這沒必要。"},{"start":602.603,"end":609.988,"text":"他的事他要自己做,個人做要個人擔。﹖不是,我們是聽憲法的進行。﹖對不對?聽憲法的進行。﹖他這樣很好啊,跳到第一層,我給他欣賞,我給他按個讚。﹖喔,跳到第一層,好啊,第一層來面對,大家請面面對,面與對決,都沒問題。﹖我告訴你啦,選舉大家都會啦,不要用騙的,要無視,喔。"},{"start":630.984,"end":656.797,"text":"啊現在怎麼幫我救他?你也不怕欸?我在台南市給他衝到一半兩百三十四天沒有禮拜議會。嗯。啊這叫做憲法這沒危險。施政不用你給他給禮完這順。這樣沒危險。啊這危險的事他不做有夠多次啊。那有歷史的原因。啊不要再說歷史的原因。啊那件事情以前也有很多人覺得說。啊我當時人家沒歷史的原因。我當時是在那裡記啦。"},{"start":660.916,"end":663.718,"text":"我告訴你聽啦,我在第三檔我問啦,我說是對。做三檔我啊。"},{"start":685.984,"end":693.491,"text":"你告訴我你到今天如果做一間台南市的建設一間就好我謝龍介同時施政你老總統不給我贏啊?不好意思說給我來拜託來經過五個月以後民進黨提名提名之後你知道他把台南市的鄉親第一股的文宣說什麼?你注意聽啊"},{"start":715.011,"end":724.657,"text":"各位臺南市民朋友,我是大勝竹。過去的四檔我都在歸位,未來的四檔,我們臺南市的大進步。我告訴你,做一個社區,可以領受一個市長四檔都在歸位。所以我問你,你做一個建設,他抱歉給我贏,坦白說,贏不出來。所以我說你不要拒絕他啦,再給他頒一個五千塊錢,來,注意聽。"},{"start":746.553,"end":752.256,"text":"民進黨籍的公職人員,市長也好、立委也好、議員也好,講一句比較淡白的啦﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖﹖�"},{"start":775.853,"end":803.539,"text":"為什麼會這樣?因為互相攻擊嘛!互相攻擊嘛!作為老市長,今天你回來台南,心情是很痛痛的。對台南市發生的事,我真的很痛心。所以我在這,我希望市長站起來。李維站起來!議員都站起來!"},{"start":806.181,"end":807.501,"text":"臨時提案委員．謝龍介臨時提案委員．謝龍介"},{"start":834.329,"end":836.511,"text":"今天有一個新聞,就是說中國大陸派人來監視我們的媒體。"},{"start":857.395,"end":864.88,"text":"你明明知道他在監視我們的媒體在跟我們操作,你為什麼是抱歉和你跟我調侃放棄照?還有這個事情,媒體可以這樣補嗎?當然不行啊,如果有這個事實。啊有這個事實你為什麼放棄照啊?這個事實,發生了事情,是不是大家都知道這件事陸委會來跟他...大家都知道我告訴你,他剛才做的事如果有這個事情啦。"},{"start":883.288,"end":898.311,"text":"我跟整棟一樣,整棟也利用很多媒體,還有中央廚房,每天都要討論什麼,今天討論韓國禄,明天再討論謝龍介。 齁,徐巧欣、蒲翠雅說話,每個人都說一樣,你如果說他們是這樣就對了,你如果知道是這樣,不這樣,你回去炒,我會提供一個共同的群組給你。"},{"start":907.313,"end":908.514,"text":"委員報告,他是因為輪調回去了"},{"start":932.196,"end":944.346,"text":"阿輪到有四人回去阿,你從我的故事已經講就對了,是有阿沒有,有這個事情阿沒有啦。我們現在會跟文化部主管機關一起來做行政調查。阿沒調查欸,當報案的那一陣子是..."},{"start":954.611,"end":962.995,"text":"謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長的備詢。報告委員會現在在議場二樓旁聽的是臺灣四代教育基金會所有的好朋友歡迎。"}]}},{"id":"154180","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154180","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb03488a2be8b5d6984c867c7a3ae89c54160a2b78e90c253bf8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"14:46:59 - 15:02:52","影片長度":"00:15:53","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T14:46:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T15:02:52+08:00","duration":953,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":24,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（14時46分）謝謝院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長好。院長，首先我要先特別感謝行政院還有內政部，我們在持續爭取永續提升人行安全計畫，我這裡也有爭取到、也非常感謝，因為臺中市政府有送案，包含麻園頭溪、南區的復興路以及東、南區的建成路，都有爭取到相關的計畫內容，但後續因為還有國光路、文心南路以及五權南路未獲補助，我們也持續關注，也希望內政部給予我們臺中市的建設高度的關心。","第一個，我想要跟院長爭取照顧弱勢，將中低收入戶比照低收入戶，也可以納入使用公立殯葬設施的免收使用管理費。院長，我想跟你分享，2017年5月立法院三讀通過殯葬管理條例第二十一條之一條文修正，將低收入戶使用公立殯葬設施、火葬場以及納骨塔均免收使用管理相關費用。但我要跟你探討的是，社會救助法第一條規定的很清楚，為照顧低收入戶、中低收入戶，我們可以看到制定這個法就是將扶助救濟的對象包含中低收。截至112年第4季，全國約有二十八萬六千的中低收入戶不符合殯葬管理條例的規定，我想跟您爭取，院長，基於照顧弱勢、彰顯政府照顧中低收的國民，是否評估喪葬費用、火化及納骨塔塔位等所需經費由中央編列給予支持？雲林縣目前正在做，行政院可不可以有這個機會來研議？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，關於地方自治事項必須有全國的一致性，現在低收入戶總計有二十六萬餘人，這個已經由地方政府吸收這樣的費用，如果再納入中低收入戶，這個人數當然龐大，如果同樣由地方政府來吸收的話，那才是地方自治事項，但地方政府是不是能夠承接這樣的一個財政負擔、是不是計算結果是可以的？這部分我覺得我們尊重地方自治……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以這邊我是說所需的經費由中央政府來編列預算支持，因此我想跟您爭取啦！我當然知道目前是由地方政府，所以雲林縣目前正在自己想辦法嘛，我希望透過這麼重要的一個質詢來跟您建議，希望內政部能夠做一個考慮。","第二個，我想跟你探討的是大家都在討論的社會住宅，我想以103年當分水嶺，因為103年有所謂的巢運，當時內政部統計全國的住宅價格指數是99.07，而現在112年第四季來到了136.2，孔子說三十而立，我自己覺得35歲是一個人生的分水嶺，我們在跑行程的時候，有一些跟我們差不多歲數的年輕人跟我們分享，不敢結婚、不敢生、薪水比不上其他的國家，房價持續的攀升，對他們來說高不可攀，負擔非常的重。院長，就你自己的觀察，你對房價、房市的觀察，你覺得有沒有緩漲甚至有降價？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為都會化的形成，公共建設的加強，乃至於整個建築成本的提高以及很多專業區、科技園區的產生，帶動周遭土地的需求、房屋的需求等等，以及建商用很多的行銷手法，都會造成房價往上升……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是臺灣前景看好，所以持續在攀升。"],["卓院長榮泰：但過去我們透過平均地權以及房地合一2.0稅率都有看到稍微的舒緩，但是我個人認為要讓它下滑很大應該很難，除非有一個很大的變動，臺灣在這個穩定的局面底下，有看到因為這樣的措施稍微的下滑，但現在它隨時可能因為某種因素，在做一些市場上的變化，政府的策略是用公共政策的手段，透過金融的方式，透過更多租屋補貼來平抑這個市場……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，所以我們一起來探討，我也很高興你實事求是的回答。前總統蔡英文所提出的住宅三箭「改革房屋稅制」、「健全租屋體系」以及「興辦社會住宅」，我們可以來探討幾個，稅制的部分，因為7月開始囤房稅2.0，實際的效果仍未知，但是目前大家都覺得新青安貸款有點不妙。最近還有一個新聞說很多網路上的探討都不太看好新青安的貸款，因為現在房價是越打越高，我們支持打房，但是我覺得真正的是打炒房。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我覺得關鍵是在這裡，我覺得我們這個政策明顯是想要給年輕人吃胡蘿蔔，但是我們卻不敢對炒房以及投資客拿出更大、更大的棒子來因應，我覺得這個著力點應該要想辦法，我想這個跟第二支箭健全租屋體系有類似的狀況，關於租屋的爭議以及租賃的權益，我們都持續的關注，我也緊盯著租屋定型化契約，防範房東調漲電價，這個部分我想之前也有其他的委員關心這一題。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望這個定型化契約能夠趕緊出來，但接著我要講的是第三支箭興辦社會住宅，我想要分享興辦社會住宅的幾個數據，賴總統對於百萬社宅的這一個目標，我們很擔憂他如何達成，我們當然希望他能夠達成。","再來看一下這些數據，是從內政部不動產資訊平臺社會住宅統計專區抓出來的，我就不細談內部，我就跟大家報告，說實在話，我覺得整個數據有過於的美化，您聽聽看，因為我覺得真正能住的只有「既有」加「新完工」，也就是說全國只有3萬336戶是民眾真正能夠住進去的，占比整個全國住宅是0.32%，所以還有7萬2,024戶正在蓋，根本還沒有蓋好，所以跟民眾實際的認知是有落差的。","再者，我看到內政部在2月23號的臉書有說，中央在臺中市興辦的社會住宅已達4,000戶，有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：關於這個部分，我要跟大家分享其中一個點，國家住都中心推動龍井區的台糖公營學苑轉做社會住宅，提供有就學、就業、居住的民眾來申請入住，有兩百多戶，對吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我要跟大家報告，我們可以看一下全國住宅興辦進度統計表，中央在臺中新完工的部分有203戶，可是台糖公營學苑社宅改裝學生宿舍根本就不是新完工，為什麼我要這樣講？台糖在100年就取得了使用執照，台糖自營收租的一個宿舍，宿舍早就在使用了，只是去年加入了旅館及公私有房舍轉型社宅專案，才轉為社會住宅使用，所以從頭到尾我認為它不是新完工，但是我們不拘泥於細節啦！院長，我覺得這樣子應該把它分配到既有的那一項，但是我要跟大家探討的是，臺中市目前已完工2,719戶，再加上興建中的社宅有4,649戶，共計7,368戶，六都排名是第二，僅次於臺北市。針對認真執行社宅的地方政府，院長，可不可以給予一些獎勵的計畫措施，鼓勵好學生再更認真，鼓勵好學生協助我們賴清德總統所訂定的這個目標，在該縣市能夠更加大刀闊斧的進行，院長你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：感謝委員，如果中央跟地方政府就某一個這樣人民所需要的政策，都能夠通力的合作，絕對是全民之福，地方做得好也不一定掌聲在中央，大家還是會給地方政府、給臺中市政府掌聲的，但是這個掌聲我覺得對我們來講都是最大最大的獎勵。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，想跟您爭取……"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我補充一下……"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為有頒獎，臺中市政府有被頒獎，那是一個榮耀。"],["劉部長世芳：我們已經同意補助臺中市政府，總共有158億來興建社宅……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有、有、有，我知道、我知道。"],["劉部長世芳：這個非常的實際。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是也希望未來有機會興建中的工程費用，能夠中央再來一起協助……"],["劉部長世芳：我們很希望臺中市政府可以多提供我們一些土地，讓我們一起來興辦。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果臺中市政府……我也在幫忙找土地，來通報給我們中央，我也鼓勵臺中市政府，當然後面我再來跟你探討，其實剛剛很多的立委都在分享整個社會住宅的占總體量，我想5%是先進國家的一個低標啦！剛剛都在講周邊國家6%，我是覺得臺灣目前是0.32，當然有人對於這個認知上有差距，沒關係，但我要講的是，還是跟實際的低標有一定的差距。本席想談的重點就是內政部的數據一直都是中央跟地方，但是我覺得不是只是單靠一方就能夠完成，院長也能夠認同嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：應該是共同來努力，所以本席建議中央、地方一起來協力，中央主導興建，中央可以盤點現有國有地，例如台糖在臺中扣除了農業區、山坡地保留地、工業區等用地不能興建以外，是不是能夠再來持續的盤點有沒有其他的，台糖只是舉例，有沒有其他的國有閒置土地來興建社會住宅？第二，針對地方政府積極興建的部分，我還是希望能夠再一次的來發聲，是不是對於地方政府的量能有限，給予更多的資金預算？這部分我想剛剛部長也有提到，目前有針對一些補助下去，當然我們希望能夠有更多的預算，因為臺中市的表現其實我可以看到的確是六都排名第二。","最後，我想說是不是能夠有一些政策來做引誘的誘因？興建集合式的住宅容積獎勵，可以要求挪一部分作為公益社會住宅，以及公托、公幼、親子館相關等設施？過去我們看到荷蘭考察的一個項目，大家都稱讚荷蘭他們相關的政策，比如說其實荷蘭又更進一步公私造屋，剛剛前一位委員也有提到，鼓勵青年參與合作造屋的方向，我想荷蘭這個部分我們還是可以實際有所參考。臺灣社會住宅起步比較晚，很多東西沒有完全這麼成熟，但是借鏡荷蘭的模式，破除大眾對於社會住宅的成見，形塑一個屬於臺灣新社區的文化。我想荷蘭的混居，透過這樣子的一個模式，針對以上的建議，院長，有沒有機會？回應一下、承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：新的區段徵收按新的規定，必須要提供5%給直直轄市、3%給非直轄市來興辦社會住宅，這個已經是將來可行的方式之一。至於說更多的公有土地或是一般可開發的土地，我們日前有請內政部來統籌把土地盤點，但這個土地也要坐落在可需要用的地方，而不是偏僻的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請內政部說明。"],["劉部長世芳：對，剛剛羅委員所講的都非常正確，有些措施當中，我再提供一個，就是住宅法裡面其實它是可以鼓勵私人的企業，私人的企業它如果願意留住員工，它也願意蓋社宅的話，我們也願意協助，那這樣子土地的取得就比較沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，當然，我是希望誘因再更多啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們多管齊下來興建社會住宅，提供給年輕人比較多居住正義的機會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝，另外我想再跟院長探討毒品防制的一個問題，院長在這一次書面報告寫到，落實五打七安政策，溯毒、追人、斷金流，我有幾個舉例跟新聞想跟您做一個探討。第一個，這則新聞是全力緝毒，持K毒的人口還是年年竄高，持有5公克以上就是刑事犯罪；5公克以下，我們可以知道就是裁罰相關的金額。所以有報導指出現在持有不到5公克K毒的人年年升高，顯示K菸、相關的K毒人數，我們覺得有可能毒犯是以化整為零的方式帶貨，即使被查獲，也只要罰錢。我想院長有沒有一個態度？我們之前20公克調整成5公克，有沒有機會再繼續更嚴格？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們把打詐跟反毒列為相當重要的治安工作之一，所以在法令上像打詐的四法，我們希望趕快通過。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：在反毒的過程裡，對於新興毒品，必須要讓毒品的審議能夠加速，至於說已經持在手上的，或者是剛剛委員所說這樣的行為態樣，如果我們認為這將來對反毒的工作會產生不利或是說力有未逮的情況底下，我們當然共同來討論……"],["羅委員廷瑋：520之前我跟法務部長有探討過，他也覺得所謂的K毒年年竄高，持有5公克以下只需要裁罰金額，他認為應該更嚴格再繼續下降公克數，我也希望能夠朝這一面來處理。","第二個，當然我要探討的是新聞，新興毒品之冠，三年205人死於「喵喵」；再來第三個，「依托咪酯」被摻入電子煙吸食如同喪屍，我想法務部毒審會已通過列為毒品，現在走法制程序，後續報行政院核定大概要花多少時間？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我來講一下，我們其實預告的時間是15天，6月13號的時候已經召開毒品防制審議會，其實非常短的時間之內可能就可以公告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，最後我想講在98年間，有一個食品添加威而鋼偽藥開始盛行，當時的行政院長吳敦義指示要由所謂的衛生署、法務部來形成一個專案，強力的來掃蕩毒品。我想偽劣假藥的聯合取締小組當時是專案辦理，有沒有機會我們也來做這樣的專案辦理，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在就是全力在執行五打七安，這個當然就是其中的一環。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝院長，我們一起努力。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第13號謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":2.8997187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.30471875,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":4.705343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.290343750000002,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.18409375,"end":75.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.00221875000001,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.40471875,"end":120.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.68284375,"end":125.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.41221875000001,"end":135.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.50346875,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.20346875,"end":138.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.88659375,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.52346875,"end":144.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.68346875,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.84284375000001,"end":191.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.88284375,"end":217.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.29221875000002,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.67159375000003,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.42659375000002,"end":227.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.69159375,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.29909375000003,"end":229.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.71659375000002,"end":231.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.02846875,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.90159375000002,"end":242.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.41971875000002,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.74846875000003,"end":245.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.54971875,"end":256.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.13846875,"end":262.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.55534375,"end":272.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.00096875,"end":275.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.13971875000004,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.34159375,"end":321.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.49971875,"end":322.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.73596875000004,"end":406.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.87034375,"end":408.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.99659375000005,"end":413.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.95784375000005,"end":418.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.91909375,"end":423.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.11659375000005,"end":432.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.29659375000006,"end":433.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.88721875000005,"end":434.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.37659375000004,"end":434.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.68034375,"end":437.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.30846875000003,"end":447.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.40409375,"end":449.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.08721875000003,"end":450.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.38659375000003,"end":461.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.15284375000005,"end":501.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.98846875000004,"end":488.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.39971875000003,"end":513.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.70159375,"end":517.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.34659375,"end":535.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.5590937500001,"end":542.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.5959687500001,"end":543.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.0303437499999,"end":545.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.5109687500001,"end":547.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.41784375,"end":551.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.5190937500001,"end":549.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.5734687500001,"end":555.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.74159375,"end":561.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.93909375,"end":568.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.1072187500001,"end":566.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.72284375,"end":571.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.08534375,"end":574.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.4309687500001,"end":573.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.5447187500001,"end":716.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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院長你怎麼看?感謝委員如果中央跟地方政府都能就某一個這樣人民所需要的政策能夠通力的合作這絕對是全民之福那地方做得好"},{"start":546.707,"end":549.408,"text":"我們很希望臺中市政府可以多提供我們一些土地"},{"start":573.533,"end":573.553,"text":"﹚羅廷瑋﹚"},{"start":590.96,"end":616.836,"text":"5%是先進國家的一個低標啦,剛剛都在講周邊國家嘛,6%的我們都,我是覺得臺灣目前是0.32啦,當然有人對於這個認知上有差距,沒關係,但我要講的是還是跟實際的低標有一定的差距。那本席想談的重點就是內政部的數據一直都是中央跟地方,但是我覺得不是只是單靠一方就能夠完成,院長你也能夠認同嘛,對不對,應該是共同來努力。"},{"start":617.316,"end":634.697,"text":"所以本席建議中央地方一起來協力,中央主導興建,中央可以盤點現有國有地,例如台塘,在台中扣除了農業區、山坡地、保留地、工業區等用地不能興建以外的,是不是能夠再來持續的盤點,有沒有其他的,台塘只是舉例。"},{"start":635.518,"end":662.891,"text":"有沒有其他的國有閒置土地來興建這一個社會住宅?第二,針對地方政府積極興建的部分我還是希望能夠再一次的來發聲是不是能給予這個所謂的地方政府的量能有限給予更多的資金預算這部分剛剛我想這個部長也有提到目前有針對一些補助下去當然我們希望能夠更加的多的預算因為台中市的表現其實我可以看到"},{"start":663.791,"end":683.824,"text":"的確是六都排名第二最後我想說是不是能夠有一些政策來做引誘的一個誘因那就是新建集合式的住宅隆基獎率可以要求挪移部分作為公益社會住宅以及公托公用親子館相關的等設施過去我們看到荷蘭的考察"},{"start":684.304,"end":700.274,"text":"荷蘭的一個項目大家都可以稱讚荷蘭他們的相關的政策比如說像其實荷蘭又更進一步公私造屋其實剛剛我們前一位委員也有提到這個部分鼓勵青年參與合作造屋的方向我想荷蘭這個部分我們還是可以實際有所參考"},{"start":702.555,"end":722.454,"text":"這部分我想臺灣社會住宅起步比較晚,很多東西沒有完全這麼成熟,但是藉近荷蘭的模式,破除大眾對於社會住宅的一個成見,形塑一個屬於臺灣新社區的文化,我想荷蘭的一個混居,透過這樣子的一個模式,我想院長針對以上的建議,院長有沒有機會回應一下,承諾。"},{"start":723.576,"end":746.857,"text":"這個新的區段徵收案期的規定必須要提供5%給直轄市、3%給非直轄市來侵犯社會住宅,這個已經是將來可行的方式之一。那至於說更多的公有土地或是一般可開發的土地,我們日前有請內政部來統籌把土地盤點,但這個土地要座落在可需要用的地方,而不是偏僻的。我請內政部說明。"},{"start":748.978,"end":772.489,"text":"對,剛剛羅委員所講的都非常正確,有些措施當中我再提供一個,就是住宅法裡面其實它是可以鼓勵私人的企業,私人的企業他如果願意留住員工,他也願意蓋社宅的話,我們也願意協助,那這樣子土地的取得就比較沒有問題。﹖對當然我就希望再誘因再更多﹖對,我們多管齊下來興建這個社會住宅,提供給年輕人比較多的居住正義的機會。"},{"start":773.807,"end":790.414,"text":"好,謝謝。另外我想再跟這個院長探討毒品防治的一個問題。 院長我想在這一次的書面報告可以寫到這個落實五打七安政策,唆毒追人斷金流。 那我想有幾個舉例跟這個新聞想跟您做一個探討。 第一個,這個新聞呢,權力棄毒"},{"start":793.035,"end":793.055,"text":"﹚羅廷瑋﹚"},{"start":813.931,"end":830.128,"text":"三毒K的菸啊,相關的K毒人數啊,我們覺得有可能毒販是化整為零的方式帶貨,即使被查獲也只要罰錢。我想院長有沒有一個態度,我們之前20公克調整成5公克,有沒有機會再繼續更嚴格?"},{"start":832.538,"end":849.361,"text":"現在我們把打詐跟反毒列為相當重要的治安工作之一所以在法令上像打詐的釋法我們希望趕快通過在反毒的過程裡面對新興毒品必須要有一個毒品的審議能夠加速至於說"},{"start":850.462,"end":854.526,"text":"我想520之前我跟法務部長有探討過他也覺得這個所謂的K毒"},{"start":870.621,"end":871.222,"text":"新興毒品之冠3年205人死於喵喵"},{"start":887.703,"end":899.774,"text":"第三、依託米子被滲入電子煙稀時如同喪屍。（我想法務副讀審會已通過而列為讀品,現在走法制程序,後續要報行政院合併大概要花多少時間?"},{"start":901.318,"end":922.631,"text":"報告我來講一下我們其實預告的時間是15天那6月13號的時候已經召開毒品防治協會所以其實算上短的時間之內可能就可以公告最後我想講在98年間有一個食品添加威爾岡尾要開始盛行當時的行政院長吳敦義指示要由所謂的"},{"start":946.127,"end":947.048,"text":"謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的備詢。"}]}},{"id":"154179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb723bb242a272b8694c867c7a3ae89c54160a2b78e90c253b53aeae6a5651927f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"14:30:37 - 14:46:53","影片長度":"00:16:16","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T14:30:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T14:46:53+08:00","duration":976,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（14時31分）主席、各位列席的官員，大家午安。麻煩主席請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長午安。今天本席跟上一次一樣，本席對於總質詢還是提出年輕朋友最關心的居住正義，也就是我們對於臺灣不斷上漲的房價，怎麼讓年輕朋友可以有一個家，所以社宅是本席從當副院長再回過頭來當委員，我們一直在關注的一個問題。一開始我先讓卓院長瞭解幾個數據，第一個，我想這個叫臺股總市值，也就是過去八年的時間，蔡政府對於臺灣經濟在方向上、政策規劃上，事實上是做對了一些方向，所以你看我們從2016年開始，臺股的總市值從23.9兆幾乎成長三倍，到今年5月臺股的總市值已經達到67.3兆，換言之，它創造一定程度的財富效果。第二個部分我們來看一下，我隨便抓一個年份，當然新的部分有時候有些國家還沒有出來，我們就用2021年來做一個比較。院長，你可以看得到臺灣人或者說華人非常喜歡存款，所以你看臺灣的國民儲蓄率接近50%，你看相對於美國17%、英國15%、加拿大23%、南韓才33%，所以國人的錢很多。第三個部分，我想院長也很清楚，我們的政策裡面希望包括過去臺商的錢，我們透過政策讓臺商的錢引流回臺投資臺灣。","所以這三個數據我們都可以看到一個現象，臺灣人很多錢，游資充斥，而游資充斥的結果，臺灣人又喜歡買土地、買房子，換言之，供給有限的房子不斷地因為游資充沛，所以大家不斷在供需沒辦法平衡的情況底下，我們的房價可以說節節高升。現在我們都不是在談蛋黃區了，現在年輕朋友是談到蛋殼區，蛋白大概也買不起了，大家都在談蛋殼區，所以我們一直在做一件事情，你看從民國105年開始，我們一連串無論是房地合一稅2.0，或者109年通過所謂的打炒房三法，從109年央行開始不斷祭出選擇性信用管制，其實這些政策都是希望透過政策來打炒房。可是院長也知道，回顧105年到109年一路到今天，我們打炒房的效果非常有限，也就是我們眼睜睜看著政策不斷推出，但房價不斷上漲，所以這表示我們的政策面對所謂的房地產、面對房子政策的時候，我們出現了一些問題。","本席的看法認為很簡單，第一個，我覺得房子有居住正義，也就是有社會正義的一個面向，這個政府應該來做，應該來照顧年輕人、照顧弱勢。但是院長你也不要忘記，房地產還有市場性，也就是房子、土地在臺灣的自由市場情況底下，它作為一種商品，所以它有它自由市場的供需狀態要去滿足，所以在這個情況底下，我想只透過政策來做是非常有限，也因為如此，本席過去以來一直積極希望對於社會住宅的推動，無論中央政府或者地方政府，都應該要卯足全力，也就是我們常常喜歡談的叫做優先法案或者政府的施政重點。本席不厭其煩又花了大概5分鐘的時間來論述這一段，因為賴總統上任，卓內閣也上任，所以我很希望從卓院長的口中聽到，社會住宅的政策、社會住宅的推動是不是卓內閣重要的優先法案，或者是優先要做的政策？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，當然是，這不僅是我們現在全力在做的，但是我們也發現在過去八年，蔡前總統的任內建立了一套機制，目前這套機制正往正向在發展，那我們現在的責任就是讓它做得更快、更多、更好，所以數字會呈現出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝院長。我們就來具體進入這個政策的內容。蔡總統的目標，八年他要蓋12萬戶，所以我們把它做了一個統計，幾乎我們從目前既有的、新完工的、興建中的、決標而待開工的，以及目前規劃中的，這樣加一加剛好十二萬六千多戶。換言之，大概蔡總統說八年要蓋12萬戶的目標，這個算是有一個初步的成果。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了一下賴總統所提，他希望未來的八年，當然他現在第一任是四年，但規劃是用八年來做規劃，如果他八年目標是25萬戶的社宅，那我看了一下25萬戶的社宅，換言之，除了將蔡總統都已經規劃好尚未完工的，把它蓋完，賴總統還要再蓋13萬戶。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：那我也舉一個數據讓卓院長看一下，從全世界各國社會住宅的比例來看，各位可以看得到，荷蘭社宅比例是34%，不要講到荷蘭，我們光隔壁的日本或者高度資本主義國家的美國、新加坡或者其他國家，臺灣只有0.8%，所以卓院長，就算你25萬戶八年可以如期完成，其實占比還是很低，這個0.8%，我再給你加1%好了，因為你蓋13萬戶，你也不過1.8%，1.8%我再給你四捨五入，算2%好了，你距離人家還是非常的遙遠。本席雖然知道你有很多的難處，因為內政部都會來我辦公室報告，但是我認為這個都是什麼，這個都是因為站在內政部的立場，部長也站在旁邊，如果以內政部之力要來完成，13萬戶他們就是認為有進步了。但是以本席的角度，13萬戶，那個叫勉強，不能叫及格，那叫勉強不及格，本席認為應該目標就設定25萬戶，不是設定蔡總統的12萬戶加你的13萬戶，賴政府就應該直接25萬戶，這個比例才可以勉強追得上。所以社宅的比例過低，我們如果要來推動，除了大家都知道，以前陳總統的時代，中部科學園區化不可能為可能，那時候大家說一個科學園區要做得好，沒有三、五年以上是不可能的，結果呢？當時陳前總統的時代，將士用命，大家把中部科學園區當成一個很重要的目標，所以你看兩年的時間中部科學園區就好了。所以本席認為這個叫事在人為啦！如果今天賴政府、卓內閣對於年輕人居住正義的問題，認為社宅是解決目前房價高漲或者年輕人要住得起房子很重要的解方之一，我認為就應該要傾全力來做這件事情，而不是這件事情只請劉世芳部長的內政部，甚至下面的住都中心去想辦法找地啊、蓋房子啊，這個不通啦！所以本席會利用總質詢很寶貴的時間來請卓院長針對社宅的問題，能否以最快速的方式把目標再調整一下，不要只訂13萬戶，那個是勉強、是不及格啦！可不可以目標就直接調升1倍，我們就把它變成25萬戶？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩點跟委員報告，第一點，我們的社會住宅政策除了直接興建之外，委員也知道我們還有包租代管跟租金補貼，分別有25萬戶跟50萬戶。而委員所關心的直接興建，我們秉持的態度是我們直接、很誠實地看到問題，所以務實地提出這樣的數據，這是一個方法；再來就是我們踏實地要在未來的8年內興建包括前面12萬戶之外的13萬戶，這是從誠實、務實、踏實的角度來出發。當然我們看過去的經驗，會讓我們在未來的8年更有一些依據，可循過去的經驗做得更多、更好，那麼如果在當中我們有更好的方式的話，當然數字可能是浮動的，但現在我們是朝這個目標來做各項的努力。以上跟委員報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席還是覺得，就是卓院長的回答我不是叫做不滿意，賴總統要連任，他一定要有幾件事情是讓所有國人同胞覺得賴總統在這幾樣事情做得有夠好；像是蔡總統，很簡單嘛，他把臺灣的能見度、把整個臺灣的經濟等等，他有幾件很重要的事情是大家記得很清楚的。我認為把社會住宅這件事情傾全力把它做好，是賴總統未來4年他要連任時，年輕朋友會記得最清楚的，蔡總統雖然有提出興建12萬戶，他是起頭，但是你要知道年輕朋友不買單，12萬戶在蔡總統的總統在任或者選舉過程裡面，年輕朋友是沒有跟我們站在一起的。","所以本席只是建議啦，我說我對你的回答不是滿意的原因，就是本席只是建議，你的回答是你把它當一件事，但你沒有把它當最重要的事情，所以本席還是認為這件事情你們去思考一下，有哪幾件事情是卓院長你在任內，你覺得我要傾全力把它做好的事情，我覺得挑一、兩樣出來做，這一、兩樣做下去是對臺灣的鄉親、臺灣的民眾非常有感的，所以本席只是建議你，或許你有其他的選項，因為本席沒有問到，所以你可能不知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，即使我們有更多的選項，即使有更多的選項，社會住宅、社會居住正義這件事永遠是我們很重要的一個優先事項。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，本席就隨便建議，你可以聽聽，譬如說公私協力，也就是什麼叫做傾全力？內政部一定沒有這樣的全力，譬如在所有我們的科學園區、工業區的附近跟大型企業合作，因為他們的年輕員工也需要社宅，所以讓他們來蓋，蓋要有誘因，不是只是說你們要去蓋喔！不是，而是政府說如果你配合我蓋，甚至你可以跟建商或者其他有需要的，我也講過嘛、我也跟部長建議過，我們的消防員、警消的宿舍，你看有多老舊！宿舍非常地老舊；然後你看，平均屋齡超過50年，而且嚴重不足，全國只有1.7%的警察人員和1.4%的消防員實際配有職務宿舍，22個縣市有17個縣市未提供消防員職務宿舍，所以這個需求很大，這個東西要怎麼去蓋？這個跟社宅可不可以結合？譬如說容積可以蓋的戶數比原來的消防員需求更高，你就應該把它蓋滿。所以我的意思是要跟院長提醒，行政院擁有所有各部會，如果各部會把社宅當成一件事情，那就不是內政部的事情，那是行政院的事情，也就是本席所提到，這個叫傾行政院的力氣來做事。所以我剛剛所提到的跟你的意見不大一樣是，我知道你會按部就班把社宅當成一件重要的事情，但我要求的不是當成一件重要的事情，我要求的是行政院應該傾全力讓年輕人這些年來面對高房價、面對租不起房子的問題，我認為這個居住正義的事情我們應該傾全力來把它解決！","時間剩下最後一分鐘，我也從此提醒，我再舉一個表格，你看這個中籤率，我舉一個中籤率你看喔，關於臺中地區、桃園地區、臺北地區，你可以看到那個中籤率有的都只有低到個位數，平均也大概都只有百分之十幾、二十左右。這表示大家對社會住宅的需求是很高的！哪怕你還有包租代管、租金補貼，我都不反對啦，但基本上還是沒有辦法，因為你看這個中籤率就知道，大家對社宅的需求還是存在；另外，我們在媒體上也看到所謂的開名車住社宅，或者最近大家在檢討的購屋低利貸款等等。因為時間的關係，本席只是提醒，面對這些被媒體揭露出來，可能我們在政策推動裡面有一些瑕疵、缺點的部分，我也希望內政部或是相關的主管機關一併要把它查清楚，不要再有這種事情出現！","因為時間的關係，再次謝謝兩位，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12號羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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":242.371,"text":"可是院長你也知道回顧從105年一路109年到今天我們打草房的效果是非常的有限也就是我們眼睜睜的政策不斷推出但房價不斷的上漲所以這個表示我們在政策面對所謂的房地產面對房子政策的時候我們出現了一些問題"},{"start":244.685,"end":268.711,"text":"本席的看法認為很簡單第一個我覺得房子有居住正義也就是有社會正義的一個面向這個政府應該來做應該來照顧年輕人照顧弱勢但是那個院長也不要忘記房地產他還有市場性也就是房子土地他作為在台灣自由市場情況底下他作為一種商品"},{"start":269.531,"end":282.127,"text":"所以他有他的自由市場的供需的這個這個狀態要去滿足所以在這個情況底下我想只透過這個政策來做是非常有限也因為如此"},{"start":282.981,"end":304.125,"text":"本席過去以來一直積極希望對於社會住宅的推動無論中央政府或者地方政府他都應該要卯足全力也就是我們常常喜歡談的叫做優先法案或者政府的施政重點那本席不厭其煩又花了大概5分鐘的時間來論述這一段因為這個賴總統上任卓內閣也上任"},{"start":312.895,"end":329.145,"text":"所以我想我很希望從卓院長的這個口中我聽到社會住宅的這個政策社會住宅推動是不是這個卓內閣重要的這個優先法案或者是優先要做的政策"},{"start":331.152,"end":355.523,"text":"報告委員當然是這不僅是我們現在全力在做的但是我們也發現在過去8年蔡前總統的任內建立了一套的機制目前這套機制正往正向的方向在發展那我們現在的責任就是讓他做得更快更多更好所以數字會呈現出來好謝謝院長我們就來具體進入這個政策的內容"},{"start":356.673,"end":380.627,"text":"蔡總統的目標8年他要蓋12萬戶,所以我們把它做了一個統計,幾乎我們從目前既有的新完工的、新建中的、絕標而待開工的以及目前規劃中的,這樣加一加剛好12萬6千多戶,所以換言之大概蔡總統說"},{"start":382.908,"end":410.523,"text":"8年要蓋12萬戶的目標這個算是有一個初步的成果那我看了一下這個賴總統所提啊他希望未來的8年當然他現在第一任是4年但規劃是用8年來做規劃如果8年他目標是25萬戶的社宅那我看了一下25萬戶的社宅換言之除了將蔡總統上位完工的都已經規劃好上位完工把它蓋完"},{"start":412.654,"end":426.992,"text":"賴總統還要再蓋13萬戶。 我也舉一個數據讓卓院長看一下。 全世界各國社會住宅的比例來看,"},{"start":429.022,"end":455.384,"text":"各位可以看得到這個荷蘭是34啦射載的比例是34%不要講到荷蘭啦我們光隔壁的日本或者美國這高度資本主義國家的美國新加坡或者其他國家台灣只有0.8所以總理長就算你25萬戶8年可以如期完成其實啊占比還是很低啦"},{"start":457.268,"end":482.689,"text":"這個0.8我再給你加1%好了因為你蓋13萬戶你也不過1.81.8我再給你四折五入算2%好了你還是距離人家還是非常的遙遠所以本席雖然我知道你有很多的難處因為內政部啊都會來跟我辦公室報告但是我認為這個都是什麼這個都是因為站在內政部的立場也就是"},{"start":484.02,"end":504.804,"text":"這個部長也站在旁邊如果以內政部之力要來完成13萬戶他們就是認為有進步了但是以本席的角度13萬戶那個叫勉強不能叫及格那叫勉強不及格本席認為你應該就目標設定25萬戶不是設定蔡總統的12萬戶加你的13萬戶應該這個"},{"start":515.228,"end":530.554,"text":"這個賴政府就應該直接25萬戶,這個比例才可以勉強追得上,才可以勉強追得上。所以這個涉宰的比例過低,我們如果要來推動除了"},{"start":532.087,"end":557.51,"text":"這個大家都知道以前陳總統的時代中部科學園區化不可能為可能那時候大家說一個科學園區要做得好沒有3、5年以上是不可能的結果當時陳前總統的時代將事用命大家把中部科學園區當成一個很重要的目標所以你看兩年的時間中部科學園區就好了"},{"start":558.629,"end":563.715,"text":"所以本席只認為這個叫勢在人為如果今天賴政府"},{"start":564.568,"end":593.342,"text":"左內閣認為年輕人居住正義的問題如果設宅是解決目前房價高漲或者年輕人要住得起房子很重要的解方之一我認為就應該要請全力來做這個事情而不是這件事情只請那個劉世芳部長的內政部甚至下面的住都中心去想辦法找地啊蓋房子啊這個不會通啦"},{"start":594.002,"end":595.484,"text":"所以本席會利用這個總質詢很寶貴的時間來請這個卓院長"},{"start":600.503,"end":605.686,"text":"兩點跟委員報告第一點我們的社會住宅政策除了直接興建之外委員也知道我們還有包租貸款跟租金補貼另外這個分別有25萬戶跟50萬戶"},{"start":630.741,"end":646.518,"text":"委員所關心的直接興建我們秉持的態度是我們直接很誠實的看到問題所以務實的提出這樣的數據這是一個方法再來就是我們踏實的要在未來的8年內興建包括前面12萬戶之外的13萬戶這是從誠實務實踏實的角度來出發"},{"start":650.482,"end":653.044,"text":"本席還是覺得就是說 左院長的回答我不是叫做不滿意"},{"start":674.414,"end":695.109,"text":"就是賴總統要連任他一定要有幾個事情是讓所有國人同胞覺得賴總統在這幾項事情做得有夠好的。賴總統很簡單嘛,他把台灣的能見度,把整個台灣的經濟等等他有幾個很重要的事情是大家記得很清楚的。"},{"start":697.301,"end":719.684,"text":"我認為啦,把社會住宅這件事情請全力把它做好。 是賴總統未來四年他要連任之後,年輕朋友會記得最清楚。 蔡總統雖然12萬戶一起起頭啊,但是你要知道年輕朋友不買單啊。 12萬戶在賴蔡總統的這個總統或者選舉過程裡面,年輕朋友是沒有跟我們站在一起的。"},{"start":720.472,"end":745.927,"text":"所以本席只是建議啦我說我對你的回答不是滿意的原因就是說本席只是建議就你的回答是你把它當一件事但你沒有把它當最重要的事情所以本席還是認為說這件事情你們去思考一下有哪幾件事情是卓院長你在任內你覺得我要請全力把它做好的事情我覺得挑一兩樣出來做這個一兩樣做下去是對"},{"start":748.613,"end":760.367,"text":"臺灣的鄉親臺灣的民眾非常有感的所以本席只是建議你或許你有其他的選項本席因為沒有問到所以你可能我不知道即使我們有更多的選項即使有更多的選項"},{"start":761.619,"end":781.408,"text":"社會住宅、社會居住正義這一件事永遠是我們很重要的一個優先的事項。本席就隨便建議啦,你聽一聽啦,譬如說公私協力啦,也就是什麼叫做請權力,內政部一定沒有這樣的權力,譬如說你在所有這些大型的企業,我們的科學園區、工業區的附近,"},{"start":782.228,"end":782.508,"text":"﹚蔡其昌"},{"start":808.428,"end":808.848,"text":"所以這個需求很大。"},{"start":832.324,"end":860.171,"text":"那這個東西要怎麼去蓋這個跟社宅可不可以結合比如說你的容積可以蓋戶數比原來的消防員需求更高你就應該把它蓋滿嘛所以我的意思要跟院長提醒是行政院擁有所有各部會如果各部會把社宅當成一件事情那就不是內政部的事情那是行政院的事情也就是本席所提到這個叫請行政院的力氣來做事"},{"start":860.871,"end":889.819,"text":"所以我剛剛所提到跟你的意見不大一樣是我知道你會按部就班把社宅當成一件重要的事情但我要求的不是當成一件重要的事情我要求的是行政院應該請全力讓年輕人這些年來面對高房價面對住不起房子的問題我認為這個居住正義的事情我們應該請全力來把它解決時間剩下最後一分鐘我也從此提醒"},{"start":891.001,"end":909.311,"text":"我再舉一個表格你看齁這個中遷率啊我舉一個中遷率你看齁這個臺中地區、桃園地區、臺北地區啊你可以看得到那個中遷率啊有的都只有低到個位數平均也大概都是有十幾%、二十%左右所以表示"},{"start":910.492,"end":935.331,"text":"大家對社會住宅的需求是很高的需求是很高哪怕你還有這個包租代管啊租金補貼我都不反對啦但基本上還是沒有辦法因為你看這個中簽率就知道大家對社宅的需求還是存在另外呢我們在媒體上也看到所謂什麼叫做開名車住社宅或者呢最近大家在檢討的這個"},{"start":938.33,"end":942.317,"text":"購屋的這個所謂第一例的這些貸款等等因為時間的關係"},{"start":964.693,"end":971.648,"text":"謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的背景。接下來我們請登記第12號羅廷偉委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154178","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154178","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb6bc9aae23120e9b84c867c7a3ae89c547d4553e31c9711e542cfc001de26ffe45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"13:53:27 - 13:55:06","影片長度":"00:01:39","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T13:53:27+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T13:55:06+08:00","duration":99,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（13時53分）謝謝主席。本院委員王正旭、莊瑞雄、伍麗華等14人，有鑑於學童視力不良率偏高，為有效降低學童近視盛行率，爰提案建請教育部召開跨部會研商會議並擬定具體方案，以保障學童視力。根據衛福部調查結果，近視盛行率，幼兒園大班為9.0%，國小六年級70.6%，到了國中三年級高達89.3%。為達成視力保健之具體目標，爰提案建請教育部應會同衛福部，於本年8月前於北、中、南、東各分區召開研商會議，邀集地方政府教育局、衛生局以及教師代表、家長代表，必要時得加邀學生代表，另外考量學童視力保健涉及醫療專業，研商會議需邀請眼科專科醫師、驗光師等相關領域之團體代表及專家學者出席。教育部應於本年9月彙整提出相關之具體方案，並落實至全國各級學校。是否有當？敬請公決。"],["第三案：","案由：本院委員王正旭、莊瑞雄、伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等14人，有鑑於學童視力不良率偏高，為有效降低學童近視盛行率，爰提案建請教育部召開跨部會研商會議並擬定具體方案，以保障學童視力。研究結果顯示，「長時間近距離用眼」是造成學童視力快速惡化之高風險因子，根據衛福部國健署106年委託執行「兒童青少年視力監測調查」之結果，近視（≧50度）盛行率，幼兒園大班為9.0%，國小六年級則已攀升達70.6%，國中三年級更達89.3%；高度近視（≧500度）盛行率，幼兒園0.5%，國小六年級10.3%，國中三年級則為28.0%。其次，根據歷年近視之流行病學調查結果，我國6至18歲兒少近視率曾一度達85%，其中青少年近視超過600度之高度近視占近20%，遠高於世界平均，前揭統計數據顯見學童視力預防保健至關重要。經查，教育部國教署曾於民國102年頒定「國民小學使用電子化設備進行教學注意事項」，隨科技進步、教學方式創新，現今教學現場普遍使用包含平板電腦、電子白板等新興教學媒材，惟相關規範至今尚未更新；此外，雖教育部近年積極推動「規律用眼3010」、「天天戶外活動120」等視力保健原則，惟相關宣導及落實成果亦亟待加強。為達成「降低學童視力不良率並強化視力保健」之具體目標，爰提案建請教育部應會同衛福部，於本（113）年8月前於北、中、南、東各分區召開研商會議，研商會議之組成，須邀集包含地方政府教育局、衛生局以及教師代表、家長代表，必要時得加邀學生代表，另考量學童視力保健涉及醫療專業，各場次研商會議需邀請眼科專科醫師、驗光師等相關領域之團體代表及專家學者出席。有關前揭研商會議各與會代表之建議及相關決議，教育部應於本（113）年9月彙整提出「改善學童近視現況暨強化學童視力保健」之具體方案，並儘速落實至全國各級學校，以提升對於學童視力保障之有效性。是否有當？請公決案。","提案人：王正旭　　莊瑞雄　　伍麗華Saidhai 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繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.7815937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.20909375,"end":31.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.739093750000002,"end":34.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.91159375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.06659375,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.884718750000005,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.97221875,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.42721875,"end":57.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.81096875,"end":58.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.992218750000006,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.118468750000005,"end":62.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.89034375000001,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.31096875,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.44159375000001,"end":85.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.93659375,"end":99.20534375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":22.139,"text":"下一位請王委員正續發言好,謝謝主席"},{"start":23.462,"end":39.908,"text":"本院委員王正旭、張瑞雄、吳立華等4人有鑒於學童勢力不良率偏高,為有效降低學童近視盛行率,原提案建請教育部召開跨部會研商會議並擬定具體方案以保障學童勢力。根據衛福部"},{"start":40.513,"end":62.371,"text":"調查結果近視正行率幼兒園大班為9%,國小六年級為70%,到了國中三年級高達89.3%,為達成私立保健的具體目標原提案,建請教育部應召開會同會務部於本年8月前北東南東各分區召開延長會議,邀請地方政府"},{"start":62.952,"end":85.849,"text":"教育局、衛生局以及教師代表、家長代表必要時的加邀學生代表另外考量學童私立保健涉及醫療專業研商會議需邀請眼科專科醫師、眼光師等相關領域之團體代表及專家學者出席教育部應於本年9月會診提出相關之具體方案並落實至全國各級學校數位有當敬請公告。"},{"start":90.97,"end":98.016,"text":"本院委員王正旭等14人提案,作如下決議,含請行政院原署,請問院會有無異議。"}]}},{"id":"154177","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154177","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fbfb2c324134f091cb4c867c7a3ae89c547d4553e31c9711e528b9a2276f57a04d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"13:52:20 - 13:53:20","影片長度":"00:01:00","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T13:52:20+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T13:53:20+08:00","duration":60,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":489,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（13時52分）有鑑於衛福部中央健康保險署及勞動部勞工保險局為提高全民健康保險及勞工保險與勞工職業災害保險之保險費收繳率，而補助投保單位及職業工會、漁會辦理保險加、退保及催、收繳保險費等業務，並酌予補助行政經費，惟近年消費者物價指數驟升，包括電價多次調漲，民生物價非常嚴峻，同時經常性薪資亦逐年增加，然前開行政經費補助卻停滯多年，未能反映業務成本。爰敬請衛福部及勞動部檢討現行作業要點，依消費者物價指數累計成長適時調升補助之行政經費。是否有當？敬請公決。"],["第二案：","案由：本院委員李彥秀、楊瓊瓔、羅廷瑋等17人，鑑於衛生福利部中央健康保險署及勞動部勞工保險局為提高全民健康保險及勞工保險與勞工職業災害保險之保險費收繳率，而補助投保單位及職業工會、漁會辦理保險加、退保及催、收繳保險費等業務，並酌予補助行政經費，惟近年消費者物價指數驟升，且電價多次調漲，民生物價嚴峻，同時經常性薪資亦逐年增加，然前開行政經費補助卻停滯多年，致未能反映業務成本。爰請衛生福利部及勞動部檢討現行作業要點，依消費者物價指數累計成長適時調升補助之行政經費（含人事行政及掛號劃撥催繳等作業費用）。是否有當？請公決案。","說明：","一、按「全民健康保險第二類及第三類被保險人之投保單位辦理健保業務補助作業要點」第2點第1項規定：「為激勵投保單位致力完成其投保與收繳健保費之效率，並落實績效導向，健保署依下列指標核撥補助款：(一)投保人數指標：投保單位依當月納保計費人數（被保險人及眷屬），補助每人每月新臺幣（以下同）十元。(二)健保費收繳率指標：第二類投保單位於寬限期內繳納健保費，且收繳率達百分之九十五並檢送正確欠費名冊者，依已繳納健保費之被保險人數，補助每人每月十七元五角。但收繳率達百分之九十未達百分之九十五，且檢送正確欠費名冊及催繳證明者，得依已繳納健保費之被保險人數，補助每人每月十七元五角。」其中投保人數指標補助每人每月10元部分，已逾10年未曾調升，另就全民健康保險保險費收繳率指標補助每人每月17.5元部分，則自109年1月1日起停滯至今。","二、再按「職業工會漁會辦理勞工保險及勞工職業災害保險業務補助作業要點」第2點第1項及第3項規定：「（第一項）職業工會及漁會符合下列情事者，依其當月已繳納勞工保險費（以下簡稱勞保費）人數，補助每人每月新臺幣十四元：……（第三項）符合第一項補助規定之職業工會及漁會，其所申報之會員欠費，已於當月勞保費繳費寬限期滿之次月底前繳納者，另得依其補繳人數，補助每人每月新臺幣十四元。」該補助自111年由每人每月12.5元調增為14元後，亦多年未變。","三、惟查自111年起，不僅經常性薪資年增減率達2.71%、2.23%，基本工資調幅則達5.21%、4.56%，電價更接連調漲8.4%、11%及11%，進而推升消費者物價指數年增率分別達2.95%及2.49%。意即，隨業務成本上升，投保單位及職業工會、漁會辦理保險加、退保及催、收繳保險費等業務之負擔愈趨沉重，現有久未調整之補助費用已不堪負荷，恐鈍化原提高保險費收繳率之目的。","四、爰請衛生福利部及勞動部檢討現行「全民健康保險第二類及第三類被保險人之投保單位辦理健保業務補助作業要點」及「職業工會漁會辦理勞工保險及勞工職業災害保險業務補助作業要點」，參酌勞工保險條例第65條之4規定，增訂依消費者物價指數累計成長適時調整補助之行政經費（含人事行政及掛號劃撥催繳等作業費用）機制，倘中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達5%時，即予增加補助之行政費用（含人事行政及掛號劃撥催繳等作業費用）。","提案人：李彥秀　　楊瓊瓔　　羅廷瑋","連署人：黃　仁　　魯明哲　　邱鎮軍　　翁曉玲　　張智倫　　羅明才　　顏寬恒　　林德福　　許宇甄　　柯志恩　　王育敏　　游　顥　　牛煦庭　　陳玉珍"],["主席：本院委員李彥秀等17人提案作如下決議：「函請行政院研處。」請問院會，有無異議？（無）無異議，通過。","接下來請王委員正旭發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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13:52:10","影片長度":"00:01:26","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T13:50:44+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T13:52:10+08:00","duration":86,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（13時51分）主席以及各位委員，大家好。國營臺鐵股份有限公司於民國104年至113年辦理「臺鐵整體購置及汰換車輛計畫」，汰換超過最低使用年限之臺鐵列車。然而自明年開始將會有300餘輛車已逾最低使用年限；116年開始高達700餘輛車都會達到最低使用年限，但目前皆沒有相關汰除計畫，考量本期購置及汰換車輛計畫耗時十年，因此無論是提昇搭乘體驗抑或是未來可能無零件汰換情況，影響到車輛檢修及行車安全皆有必要立即啟動新一期的購置及汰換車輛計畫。爰此，請國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司應於一個月之內啟動新一輪「臺鐵整體購置及汰換車輛」之評估計畫。是否有當？請公決案。"],["第一案：","案由：本院委員廖先翔、蘇清泉等13人，有鑑於國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司於民國（以下同）104至113年辦理「臺鐵整體購置及汰換車輛計畫」，規劃購置1,282輛動力車及客車，以汰換已逾最低使用年限之復興號、莒光號客車。然自114年開始有300餘輛（EMU500型）車逾最低使用年限；116年高達700餘輛車逾最低使用年限，目前均尚無相關汰除計畫，惟參考本期購置及汰換車輛計畫耗時十年，因此無論是考量提昇搭乘體驗抑或是未來可能無零件汰換情形皆有必要立即啟動新一期的購置及汰換車輛計畫。爰此，請國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司應於一個月之內啟動新一輪「臺鐵整體購置及汰換車輛」之評估計畫，並就過往查核機關指證之缺失，強化採購規劃、發包及驗收等作業；精進未來交車之標準作業流程並增進安全控管。是否有當？請公決案。","提案人：廖先翔　　蘇清泉　　","連署人：黃　仁　　邱若華　　林倩綺　　黃健豪　　魯明哲　　林德福　　羅廷瑋　　游　顥　　陳超明　　林沛祥　　徐巧芯　　"],["主席：本院委員廖先翔等13人提案作如下決議：「函請行政院研處。」請問院會，有無異議？（無）無異議，通過。","接下來請李委員彥秀發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.93534375,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.665343750000005,"end":62.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.227843750000005,"end":71.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.15471875,"end":73.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.38659375,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.17971875,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.03096875,"end":84.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.43971875000001,"end":85.67159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.814,"end":36.144,"text":"好主席以及各位委員大家好那國營台鐵股份有限公司於民國104年至113年辦理臺鐵整體購置及貸換車輛計劃貸換超過最低使用年限之臺鐵列車然而自明年開始將會有300餘輛列車已遇最低使用年限116年開始高達700餘輛"},{"start":39.206,"end":39.506,"text":"﹚廖先翔"},{"start":63.291,"end":85.061,"text":"原此,請國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司應於一個月之內啟動新一輪臺鐵整體購置及貸換車輛之評估計畫。 是否有當,請公決案。本院委員廖先翔等13人提案,作如下決議。"}]}},{"id":"154173","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154173","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb692888304a241f874c867c7a3ae89c54664f2be01c033e41daa114f3341ed6a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:44:21 - 12:00:03","影片長度":"00:15:42","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T11:44:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T12:00:03+08:00","duration":942,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":446,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時44分）好，謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家午安。有請行政院卓院長，還有內政部劉部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請卓院長及劉部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：院長好！又見面了，一個禮拜見兩次，首先還是要問候院長非常辛苦，這兩個禮拜以來非常辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，應該的。"],["張委員智倫：我要先跟院長報告，我來自新北中和，新北市是一個很特別的城市，幅員廣大，有四百多萬人，中和也是一個非常有人文特色的城市，中和有四十萬人，中和占了新北市十分之一的人口，可是它的面積大概只有新北市的百分之一，所以它是地狹人稠，未來還是要拜託院長跟部長，有關於新北市的建設以及交通問題，要拜託院長跟部長多多來關心。","第一個我要拜託院長的部分，新北市中和過去長期以來有一些建設緩慢的部分，要拜託院長來協助。當時林右昌部長曾經答應我，就是說我們中和有四十多萬人，而污水下水道是所有民眾都非常關心的，從93年開始建設污水下水道，到現在113年，南勢角地區有十萬鄉親目前還沒有連接污水下水道，所以從林右昌部長到現在的劉部長，我要拜託，雖然我們現在已經積極努力來興建污水下水道，比較可惜的是，這是中央跟地方一起來合作，過去是由內政部來主導興建，現在是委託新北市水利局來發包，然後由內政部出錢來協助，針對中央和地方，我希望第一個還是要溝通清楚，因為本來發包的時間是在113年6月，也就是這個月，可是現在可能會延長到113年7月，總共分三階段、四期的標案，整個標案的時間可能會長達十年才能完工，這個我很難跟中和區的鄉親來交代，所以我現在一直積極努力來讓它的速度加快來推動。以目前來講，大家可以看到這個圖，第一標它是屬於紅色的部分，當初一開始的時候，我就跟林右昌部長說第一標它的顏色形狀怎麼很像斧頭一樣，怎麼不跟第三標合在一起？後來他們說：委員，不好意思，你講得很對，可是因為我們已經準備要發包了，所以現在第一標就只能趕快來去承包了，這就是造成所有興建完成必須長達十年的原因。因為現在第一標已經延長到7月底才會發包，我希望是不是二、三、四標未來有機會可以一起來發包，然後讓整個時程可以縮短？聽說內政部跟水利局現在是預計七年可以完工，請問一下部長跟院長，有沒有信心可以在七年內完工？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想你非常瞭解，污水下水道系統要建設的時候，其實要跟居民做很好的溝通，因為要挖路，也許牽涉到住宅區裡面可能要有一些翻動，所以為什麼時間拉長？主要應該不是工程的難度，如果要整合的話，我們會很尊重原來新北市政府他們在協調要分三期或是三期要一起推動。這個案子的工程經費總共73億，中央已經答應補助60億，所以原則上這樣子的規劃並沒有改變，如果時程要縮短的話，假設工期可以配得上地方居民或者新北市的進度的話，我們願意來努力配合。"],["張委員智倫：好，這一點我覺得相當重要，就像我剛剛講的，南勢角地狹人稠，有非常多的特色，比如院長不知道你有沒有去過烘爐地？有沒有去拜土地公？南勢角有非常多的鄉親，有烘爐地、興南夜市、華興街等等，居住非常多的人，針對他們的居住品質，拜託院長跟部長再多多關心，希望我們一起努力縮短時程，讓南勢角十萬鄉親可以感覺到中央地方一條心。","第二個我要跟院長及部長報告的，今天很多委員都討論到消防的問題，我們都不希望火神的眼淚再度發生。針對中和缺乏的部分，剛剛第一個講到的是污水下水道，第二個就是中和有四區，東邊的秀山區也住了十萬人，可是秀山區長期以來都沒有消防分隊，所以它過去的業務都是由中和南邊的南勢分隊來協勤。院長及部長知道嗎？南勢分隊一年出勤的次數高達九千多次，這裡我有個數據跟跟您報告一下，火警一個月要出勤745次，救護每年出勤8,196次，緊急救護出勤364次，總共一年的出勤高達九千多次，讓我們南勢分隊就是……因為我們秀山區的消防分隊過去一直缺乏，現在有一個好消息，就是中和秀朗橋北側的重劃區有規劃了一個消防分隊──秀山消防分隊，來服務10萬的中和鄉親，不過現在預計要蓋好的時程將近要5年以上，所以還有5年的時間我們所有南勢角的消防同仁會非常辛苦。","所以我們現在也提出來過去長期的一個想法，就是秀朗橋頭現在有一個憲兵指揮中心，那個地方可以來做一個臨時的消防分隊，我跟林德福委員其實有去會勘過了，目前因為那塊地是憲兵、國防部在使用，他們說只能提供兩年的時間給消防分隊使用，可是剛剛跟院長及部長報告過了，新的消防分隊、新的消防分局要5年才能蓋好，所以是不是請院長跟部長，你們是不是認為……因為那個國防的中心是用來做人才招募，兩位長官認為消防救災的需求是不是高於國防部現在的需求？你們是不是也贊成這樣的想法？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝張委員的關心，我馬上來協調，因為這件事情非常重要，我們希望我們的消防同仁有一個暫時的安住所，可以安心來服務秀山整個地區的人民。"],["張委員智倫：好，非常感謝。今天院長及部長非常從善如流，非常感謝，前面兩個事情我們就一起積極來推動。","第三個其實也是部長那時候來我辦公室聊天、拜訪的時候我跟部長講的，就是我相信社會住宅是未來臺灣大家積極推動的一個非常重要的政策，中和從過去到現在以及在興建當中的會有10個社會住宅，我相信我們都希望全民也歡迎社會住宅到我們所有的周邊，可是我當時跟部長報告過，社會住宅在設立的時候，應該要有友善鄰居的措施。所以拜託院長及部長，社宅未來有3個設施應該要去做：第一個，友善所有的長輩，長照、日照要來興建；第二個，友善所有的小朋友，所以托嬰、托幼要來增設；第三個，共享空間，讓所有里民們都可以來使用，或者是設創客中心。所以請教一下部長及院長，你們認為未來在建社宅的時候，這3個東西是不是應該是標配，如果未來旁邊有需要蓋社會住宅的時候，讓大家是歡迎社會住宅的，而不是認為社會住宅造成周邊的交通或是人口的堵塞？你們未來有沒有考慮設一個標準或一個計畫，讓社會住宅在蓋的時候會有一些配套的周邊設施，比如剛剛講的長照日照中心、托嬰托幼中心、一些共享空間或者是創客中心？是不是應該頒布一個標準？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想我在辦公室裡面跟您說明非常清楚，社宅的設立，裡面的公共設施本來就是公益性、必要性，所以未來有社宅的時候，包括你所說的長照、托嬰、托幼，或者是其他跟公益性有關的，在社區同意的狀況之下，一定會把它當成標配來處理。同時，我們也會朝著未來的社宅如果民間企業願意來協助的話，我們也願意協助用住宅法的方式來幫忙。未來在整個生活空間、包括小造鎮計畫要能夠多元多軌，而不是只有政府出公有的土地或是政府來出資金，這方面其實新北市政府也瞭解得非常清楚，所以我們希望可以多軌多元的狀況之下，增加社宅的設立。"],["張委員智倫：好，請問一下部長，未來是不是有一個設立的標準，比如為什麼這個社宅就只有做日照、長照，有些就沒有；有些有做托嬰、托幼，有些就沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：它是有一定的比例，譬如有多高或是多……比例上面有多大的坪數的話，就是按照社宅設置的時候能夠提供多少公共空間。通常我們都會要求地方政府必須要跟民意代表或是當地的居民達到共識，譬如可能比較多熟齡、高齡的階層的話，希望設的是長照中心，比較多是出入社會的話，希望設的是托嬰、托幼中心，我們都尊重。"],["張委員智倫：好，未來希望就是剛剛部長講的，第一個要傾聽民意，第二個當然是需要有一套標準，不然有些人的想法跟意見可能就會沒有被聽到，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是，也請委員多多幫忙。"],["張委員智倫：未來儘量設一個標準，好不好？不然有些人就搶來搶去，也不一定是好事。","第四個要請教的是，最近內政委員會有在調數位身分證的資料，有關數位身分證的部分，本席一直有在追這一塊，也請教我們的部長跟院長，當時當然大家知道在調資料的時候有發現整份全黑的部分，我相信這整份全黑的部分，當然我們希望未來的資料還是可以更加公開、透明，可是這是過去我們賴清德當行政院長的一個政策，未來這個政策應該要怎麼去做？因為大家都知道這個政策當時在賴清德當院長的時候通過了，一整個標案是43億，也花了人民13億，當時因為行政院第3736次院會的函，裡面的內容是說因為有大陸資安的問題，所以今天是不是請教院長跟部長，到底大陸資安問題未來能不能解決？第二個，相關的配套法令是不是應該要來修？比如我們講的戶籍法或者是個人的資訊安全法，等等的這些是不是應該要來修正？不然的話，其實本席在內政委員會，我也一頭霧水，如果不這樣做的話，每年還要付高達六千多萬的維護費，這樣子的話，每年都是浪費人民的納稅錢，所以今天比較有點時間，拜託院長跟部長，應該做一些討論跟研究。"],["卓院長榮泰：數位身分證當時推動確實有一些社會上的共識以及資安問題，我們覺得資安的技術會日新月異更加的安全，將來我們確定在這個地方有更好的保障，我們就持續的進行，內政部也一直在研究如何就後續的工作再做進行，請內政部說明。"],["張委員智倫：麻煩部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。我想在數字上稍微跟委員更正一下，不是14億，是10.85億，因為當時也牽涉到沒有執行的話，預算就不會執行下去。我想大家都知道，當時是在我們立法院裡面或是行政院有一個共識，會覺得資安問題嚴重，嚴重的部分就是我們很多個人身分證裡面的資料可能會外洩。我們在委託外面處理的時候，也查察到有一些法律諮詢顧問公司，它可能在中國大陸也身兼這些律師資格，那時候我們就非常嚴格要求說要先查出來這樣有沒有問題，後來在執行的過程當中，我們發現法令不足，尤其是資安法令，譬如個人資料保護法還沒有出來，經過我們的檢討之後，現在行政院已經有個人資料保護委員會。再來就是相關資安的問題，包括數位部成立之後，跟數位相關的這些資安問題，希望數位部可以協助把相關的資安法令健全之後，我們再來考慮要不要繼續推動。","再來就是所謂的調閱委員會，我想委員非常知道調閱委員會經過兩次內政委員會來商量之後，已經延到7月16日，媒體上面都會說內政部遮隱資料，完全沒有！應該是說，我們在委託中央印製廠跟廠商他們的技術服務資料，由中央印製廠本於他們的權責來決定這個是不是屬於個人資料保護法、政府資訊公開法，或者是商業法規裡面所說的商業法律，由他們來做遮蔽，經過委員垂詢說怎麼可能全本都是這樣子黑黑的，因為我有跟其他的委員報告過，你從那個所揭示出來的影片裡面看得出來，那個不是公文，在6月7號的時候，中央印製廠已經把部分的資料送到委員會裡面去。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長的解釋，因為時間的關係，到底數位身分證有沒有一個期程？上次你講的是因為資安的問題，應該是不考慮重啟，你現在的想法還是一樣嗎？還是說在未來，因為已經瞭解這麼多了以後，有沒有一個重啟的時間？不然的話，每年花六千多萬的維護費……"],["劉部長世芳：在我們社會上還沒有取得共識之前，因為資安確實是一個很大的問題，再加上委員看看最近兩岸關係的狀況，我覺得更要非常謹慎來因應這個部分，否則全臺灣的身分證資料洩露出去，這個才是真正、最大的國安問題。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯、沒錯！當然，資安一定要保護，非常清楚，可是每年花六千多萬，而且這些設備很快就要到期了！科技第一個最重要的點就是要快速而且要安全，所以院長跟部長，這個問題我會常常跟你們請益，因為每年要花六千多萬，而且這些設備我相信很快就要到期了，所以相對的還是要拜託一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止。下午1時50分處理臨時提案，下午2時30分繼續進行內政組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（12時）","繼續開會（13時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.82659375,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.21346875,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.01909375,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.18221875,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.16096875,"end":39.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.62034375,"end":36.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.62409375,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.95721875,"end":64.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.21909375,"end":166.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.39721875,"end":181.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.14596875,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.59971875000002,"end":231.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.16346875000002,"end":259.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.10846875000004,"end":317.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.09534375000004,"end":325.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.12346875000003,"end":336.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.99096875000004,"end":337.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.56034375,"end":407.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.06846875,"end":409.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.11034375,"end":416.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.43409375000005,"end":432.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.38534375,"end":438.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.01721875000004,"end":439.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.65846875000005,"end":444.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.22721875,"end":497.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.07971875000004,"end":514.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.1953437500001,"end":515.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.52846875,"end":536.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.75284375,"end":554.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.9553437500001,"end":538.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.57284375,"end":563.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.4197187500001,"end":568.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.7522187500001,"end":572.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.8528437500001,"end":582.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.4040937500001,"end":599.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.8190937500001,"end":608.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.91471875,"end":635.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.9822187500001,"end":656.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.34346875,"end":648.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.03096875,"end":648.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.1772187500001,"end":658.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.83096875,"end":665.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.4922187500001,"end":720.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.96471875,"end":740.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.6240937500002,"end":747.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.54284375,"end":747.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.55971875,"end":748.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.67784375,"end":750.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.54659375,"end":761.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.34659375,"end":771.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.18471875,"end":771.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.45471875,"end":772.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.91034375,"end":772.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.2140937500001,"end":772.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.2647187500002,"end":778.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":778.76159375,"end":783.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.38534375,"end":785.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.2078437499999,"end":790.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.4053437500002,"end":794.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":794.9953437500001,"end":795.0459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":795.06284375,"end":798.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.5009687500001,"end":846.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":846.9197187500001,"end":886.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.5134687500001,"end":901.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.4072187500001,"end":886.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":901.29096875,"end":908.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":908.5134687500001,"end":916.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":916.57971875,"end":934.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":934.45034375,"end":934.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":935.12534375,"end":937.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":941.50409375,"end":942.4153437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.837,"end":22.941,"text":"好,謝謝主席、各位委員、各位官員、大家午安。 是不是有請這個行政院卓院長還有我們內政部、我們劉部長,謝謝。請卓院長還有劉部長備詢。張委員好。"},{"start":32.196,"end":48.047,"text":"好,院長好,又見面了,一個禮拜見兩次。還是要首先,這是非常辛苦,這兩個禮拜非常辛苦。好,那我要首先跟院長報告,這個院長我是來自新北中和。那新北市是一個很特別的城市,幅員廣大,有400多萬人。"},{"start":49.228,"end":66.415,"text":"中和也是一個非常有人文特色的一個城市,我們中和有40萬人,中和就佔了新北市十分之一的人口,可是它的面積大概只有新北市的百分之一,所以它是地狹人稠。"},{"start":67.535,"end":92.179,"text":"未來還是要拜託這個院長跟部長有關於新北市的建設以及交通問題要拜託院長跟部長多多來關心那第一個我還是要拜託院長的部分新北市中和過去長期以來有很多一些建設緩慢的一個部分要拜託院長來協助尤其我相信那個部長當時李永昌部長也非常答應我就是說我們這個中和有40多萬人"},{"start":92.719,"end":92.739,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":115.074,"end":135.732,"text":"那比較可惜的是這個是中央跟地方一起來合作﹖過去是由這個內政部來主導來興建那現在是請委託新北市水利局來整個來發包然後由內政部來出錢來協助可是現在因為中央地方我希望第一個還是要溝通的清楚因為本來發包的時間是在這個在113年6月"},{"start":137.193,"end":137.233,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":167.415,"end":167.995,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚張智倫﹚張智倫"},{"start":197.077,"end":221.184,"text":"我希望說現在第一標現在已經延長到7月底才會發包那是不是二、三、四標我們可以一起來﹖未來有機會一起來發包然後來讓整個時程現在未來現在聽說這個內政部跟水利局現在預計是7年可以完工請問一下這個部長跟院長有沒有信心可以在7年內完工"},{"start":222.033,"end":247.49,"text":"報告委員我想你非常了解這個污水下水道系統要建設的時候其實要跟居民做很好的溝通因為要挖路也許要牽涉到住宅區裡面可能要有一些翻洞所以為什麼時間拉長主要應該不是工程的難度所以要整合的話我們大概會很尊重原來的新北市政府他們在協調你要分三期或是三期要一起推動因為這個案子我們工程經費總共73億那中央已經答應補助60億所以原則上這樣子的規劃並沒有改變"},{"start":251.753,"end":279.945,"text":"那如果你時程要縮短的話﹖假設工期可以配得上地方居民﹖或者新北市的進度的話﹖我們願意來努力配合。﹖好,這一點我覺得相當重要﹖因為南市角剛講的這個地狹人稠有非常多的特色﹖比如說,院長不曉得你有沒有去杭羅爹,杭羅爹過﹖有嘛,去拜拜嘛,拜土地公﹖所以南市角有非常多的鄉親,有我們的杭羅爹﹖新南夜市,華新街等等這些東西,真的居住非常多的人。"},{"start":280.365,"end":280.385,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":297.413,"end":297.433,"text":"張智倫"},{"start":317.378,"end":317.398,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":336.954,"end":336.974,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":356.924,"end":378.326,"text":"現在有個好消息就是我們現在這個在中和有個秀郎橋北側的重劃區他現在有規劃了一個消防分隊就是秀安消防分隊來服務10萬我們的中和鄉親不過他現在預計要蓋好的時程將近要5年以上所以還有5年的時間我們所有男士角的消防同仁會非常的辛苦"},{"start":378.726,"end":393.554,"text":"所以我們現在也提出來過去長期的一個想法就是我們在這個秀朗橋頭有一個現在的憲兵指揮中心那個地方可以來做一個臨時的消防分隊那我跟林德福委員其實有去會刊過了"},{"start":393.874,"end":416.297,"text":"那現在目前因為現在那個六塊地是憲兵國防部在使用他們說只能提供兩年的時間給這個消防分隊來做可是剛剛跟這個院長跟部長報告過新的消防這個分隊新的消防分局要五年才能蓋好所以是不是請院長跟部長你們是不是認為"},{"start":417.518,"end":444.199,"text":"因為他那個國防是用來做人才招募的一個動作是不是兩位長官認為說消防救災的需求是不是高於這個國防部現在的需求?你們是不是也贊成這樣的想法?感謝張委員的關心我馬上來協調因為這件事情非常的重要我們希望我們的消防同仁有一個暫時的安住所可以安心來服務我們秀山這個整個地區的人民"},{"start":445.25,"end":472.748,"text":"好,非常感謝。今天院長跟部長非常從善如柳。非常感謝。請問兩個事情我們就大家一起積極來推動。那第三個其實也是我跟這個部長那時候來我辦公室大家來聊天拜訪的時候我跟部長講就是說社會住宅我相信是未來台灣大家積極推動的一個非常重要的這個政策。那中和現在從過去到現在以及在興建當中會有10個社會住宅"},{"start":473.168,"end":473.188,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":494.515,"end":520.287,"text":"這個設施應該要去做第一個友善我們所有的長輩長照日照要來新建第二個友善我們的所有小朋友所以托嬰托幼要來徵社第三個共享空間讓所有里民們都可以來使用或者是我們說的創客中心所以請教一下這個部長跟院長你們認為未來在建社宅的時候這三個這幾個東西是不是應該是要一個標配"},{"start":521.488,"end":521.508,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":539.188,"end":554.596,"text":"讓這個社會住宅在蓋的時候會有一些配套的一些周邊的一些設施比如說剛剛講的這個長照日照中心、拖音拖肉中心或者是一些共享空間或者是一些創客中心是不是應該頒布一個標準"},{"start":556.026,"end":573.666,"text":"報告委員,我想我在這個辦公室裡面跟您說明非常清楚,涉宅的設立裡面的公共設施本來就是公益性必要性,所以未來有涉宅的時候,包括你所說的長照拖曳或者是其他的跟公益性有關的話,在社區同意的狀況之下一定會把它當成標配來處理。"},{"start":574.787,"end":574.807,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":599.858,"end":621.44,"text":"好那請問一下部長未來是不是有一個設立的標準比如說為什麼這個社宅他就只有做日照長照有些就沒有有些有做拖音拖友有些就沒有沒有他是有一定的比例譬如說你有多高或是多大的比例上面有多大的評數的話就是按照他社宅設置的時候能夠提供多少公共空間那通常我們都會要求說地方政府必須要跟民意代表"},{"start":621.86,"end":621.88,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":636.018,"end":656.052,"text":"好,就是希望說未來,就是剛剛部長講的,就第一個要傾聽民意嘛,那第二個當然是需要說有一套標準,不然就是說有些人的想法跟意見可能就會沒有被聽到,好不好,就是未來盡量設一個標準,好不好,不然大家有些人就搶來搶去,也不一定是好事喔。好,那第四個就是要請教就是"},{"start":657.253,"end":682.879,"text":"最近這個內政委員會有在調這個數位身份證的一個部分那數位身份證的部分我知道這個一直本席一直有在追這一塊那也請教我們的部長跟院長這個當時當然知道大家知道說調資料的時候有發現這個整份全黑的部分那我相信說這整份全黑的部分當然我們需要說未來的資料還是可以更加的透 公開透明"},{"start":683.419,"end":706.618,"text":"可是就是這個是過去這個我們賴清德當行政院長的一個這個政策那未來這個政策我們應該要怎麼去做因為大家都知道這個政策當時這個賴清德當這個院長的時候通過了這個是34億的一整個標案那也劃人民13億那當時因為這個行政院版3736的這個函"},{"start":708.72,"end":708.74,"text":"﹚張智倫﹚"},{"start":728.095,"end":750.026,"text":"這些等等的是不是應該要來修正?那這樣不然的話本席其實在內政委員會我有一頭霧水啊如果這樣子不去做的話每年還要付高達6000多萬的維護費那這樣子的話每年都是浪費你的民生納稅錢所以今天是不是拜託不要有點時間拜託院長跟部長應該有做一些討論跟研究"},{"start":750.526,"end":750.706,"text":"麻煩部長"},{"start":773.029,"end":798.225,"text":"謝謝委員我想委員您大概數字上我稍微跟您更正一下不是14億是10.85億因為當時也牽涉到沒有執行的話那大概就是預算就不會執行下去然後那個我想大家都知道當時是在我們立法院裡面或是行政院有一個共識會覺得說資安問題嚴重嚴重的部分就是說我們很多個人的身份證裡面的資料的話可能會外洩那我們在委託外面的處理的時候也查查到說"},{"start":799.546,"end":816.046,"text":"外面有一些法律諮詢顧問公司他可能也身兼在中國大陸有這些律師資格那時候我們就非常嚴格要求說要先查出來這樣有沒有問題那後來在執行的過程當中我們發現法令不足尤其是資安法令譬如說個人資料保護法還沒有出來"},{"start":817.107,"end":845.421,"text":"現在我們的檢討之後現在行政院已經有個人資料保護委員會再來就是相關資安的問題包括數位部他成立之後那跟數位相關的這些資安的問題希望數位部可以協助把相關的這個資安的法律健全之後我們再來考慮要不要繼續推動再來就是所謂的調閱委員會我想委員非常知道調閱委員會經過兩次內政委員會來商量之後已經延到7月16"},{"start":846.261,"end":846.281,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":869.551,"end":869.952,"text":"好 謝謝部長的解釋有時間的關係"},{"start":885.952,"end":900.43,"text":"那有沒有一個期程到底數位身份證因為上次你講的是因為資安問題不起應該是不考慮重啟那你現在的想法還是一樣嗎還是說你未來像已經了解這麼多了以後有沒有一個重啟的時間不然的話每年花6千多萬的這個維護費"},{"start":901.391,"end":916.172,"text":"在我們社會上還沒有取得共識之前因為治安確實是一個很大的問題再加上委員看看最近的兩岸關係的狀況我覺得更要非常的謹慎來因應這個部分否則全台灣的人身份證的資料洩漏出去這個才是真正最大的國安問題"},{"start":916.733,"end":916.753,"text":"謝謝章偉"}]}},{"id":"154172","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154172","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb38ec27e9cbd4c2204c867c7a3ae89c54664f2be01c033e41abb4f772ab4ab96a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:28:15 - 11:43:53","影片長度":"00:15:38","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T11:28:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T11:43:53+08:00","duration":938,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時28分）謝謝主席，我想請卓院長，還有內政部劉部長。"],["主席：卓院長，還有劉部長，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好！"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好！院長好！我想今天很重要的是我看到了卓院長昨天針對新青安貸款開了一個內部的會議，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：您上任大概一個月左右的時間，新青安貸款其實從去年8月到現在，在我2月1日上任之後，就一直在問這件事情，但是我很遺憾當時不知道是不是因為看守內閣的關係，所以他們認為新青安貸款沒有任何問題，而且不影響房市，因為占的比例很小。院長，那你昨天為什麼要開會？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個、新青安貸款補貼的原意是非常好的，幫助年輕人、需要房屋的人……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但是被用壞了，對吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：而且經過這段時間實行下來，房價的高漲絕非是單一的元素，這個我們都知道……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我同意。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們想如果能夠排除一些現在心理的作用，也許從某些角度來看，對政策的調整，可以了解……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題，這個問題在哪裡？因為我們來自民間，所以我大概簡單講，今年5月交易棟數達到2萬6,000多，而且這是十年來的新高，所以跟我說沒有催房市漲，這是不可能的！第二個，之前財政部說，因為它占的比例少，但是我現在要告訴你說，星星之火已經燎原，這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重，為什麼？對於現在的年輕人，某個媒體下了一個註解，當政府一直打房，一直希望能夠搞居住正義，通過平均地權條例要打房，但是打不過，就加入它，讓年輕人買房子，就成為討好年輕人選票的方法。這不是我講的，是一個媒體給現在的政府下的註解。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是這樣的立意，原始的立意不是這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，原來都不是，但是最後變成這樣，現在的狀況就是年輕人變成人頭。我們大概看到幾個問題，第一個，內政部、財政部、公股銀行他們的分工很清楚，內政部給錢，財政部訂辦法，交給公股銀行去貸，但是過程裡面沒有互相監控或者是互相瞭解對方的分工。我這邊要跟院長直接說，現在的問題就是，第一，有非常多的銀行用話術告訴貸新青安的年輕人，不用把租金交給房東，應該拿來買房子，因為五年的寬限期不需要繳本金，你的租金剛好付這個相關的利息，這個利息政府還幫你出了；第二個，政府不會讓房價跌，所以五年後寬限期過了，你要開始繳本金之後，你就可以賣房子，這是一個穩賺不賠的生意。院長，這已經不管是銀行業者、仲介業者，還有所有新的建商都在做一樣的事情。","第二個，最嚴重的問題是，這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況，但是還是繼續投下去，我們擔心，寬限期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始，您覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：部分在市場上的不動產專家也看到了諸如此類的問題，我已請各個部會……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我希望您開的會是真的有用啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的精進，這個正在……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事，我今天請部長上來就是發現一個很嚴重的問題，其實他們在貸款之前有要求這要自住，要自己住，所以有些銀行早就已經要求寫切結書，寫了切結書之後發現一個很嚴重的問題是，他沒有人力跟物力去稽核，沒有人力、物力去稽核也就算了，搞不好有些年輕人還把這個房子租出去，甚至還拿了租金補貼。我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候，他們說有可能，因為他們沒有勾稽。部長，你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶，有沒有跟新青安貸款做勾稽？開始做了沒？"],["劉部長世芳：我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前，確實發現這個缺點，未來……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，他拿著租金補貼，還拿著新青安貸款！"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以我們未來要勾稽，勾稽出來的話，可能會把他踢出新青安貸款。"],["黃委員珊珊：這就是我2月份問的……"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：那時候發現這個問題，然後現在你們的方法是這樣，但是我現在看到比較好笑的事又來了，公股銀行說，我要開始讓他們寫切結。院長，你覺得切結有用嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：要看內容是什麼。"],["黃委員珊珊：切結就是說我保證我自住，我不是自住就怎樣怎樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：將來如果真正嚴重到需要訴諸法律的時候，在這個糾紛當中、訴訟當中，也許切結書是一個有效的依據。"],["黃委員珊珊：切結有效，現在就簽了，但是沒有人查，切結就是無效，所以剛剛部長說的勾稽很重要。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶，你還有包租代管戶，這些都是你可以直接勾稽的對象，所以財政部不要再跟我說，公股銀行寫了切結就沒事了，現在要開始做這件事。","第三個，這個問題就回到了我們現在是不是居住正義做一半？因為現在住宅法很清楚、很可愛，因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人，所以跟大家說，我不會把你的租金補貼拿去做所得稅的稽核，但是現在至少可以做新青安的查核吧？可以吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，可以。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，就是因為如此，所以我們的政府是不是姑息，或者是我們政府姑息大家，希望大家不要來報稅，所以房東現在都不報稅？大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事，第一件，不准設戶口；第二件，不准報稅；第三件，不准去領租金補貼。劉部長，上次在委員會的時候，你也承認目前的困境就是如此，對吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，但是我們後來有做檢討改進，包括你所說的，不是只有租屋補貼，還有包括租賃業者……"],["黃委員珊珊：包租代管……"],["劉部長世芳：要找他們來商量，就是未來要把所謂的租金對外披露，至少資訊的揭露是個根本之道，需要先處理。"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在要跟院長說的是，臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方，因為大家都希望有自己的房子，有了自己的房子後，就希望租出去當包租公，但不想繳稅，所以租屋黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年了。目前為止在相關內政部的統計大概有98萬戶的承租人，總人口大概是260萬人，如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的，其實全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族，也就是租房子過日子的人，這300萬人中能夠申請到租金補貼的其實還只是少部分，我們有300萬人，可是只有51萬個租金補貼，顯然它的比例……"],["劉部長世芳：租金補貼還是有它必須要的申請要件。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，但是我的意思是，很多人還是拿不到租金補貼，尤其是學生。"],["劉部長世芳：但是我們現在已經掌握到的，大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們有這麼多，51萬筆是租金補貼，有8萬戶是包租代管，這些有沒有做所謂的租屋實價登錄？"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止我們大概要用勾稽的方式來處理，所謂的實價登錄……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以還是一樣……"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員，我想你都知道，如果我們要做資訊揭露的話，還是要依照法令，否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法，所以我們在4月19日的時候已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議，我們所根據的法源就是租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係，你要有法源，我們還可以再幫你加一條法源。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們已經有要增訂包租……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你支不支持全面的租金實價登錄？"],["劉部長世芳：實價登錄當然是資訊透明化之一，但是要看對象，他的對象除了房東之外，還有包租代管業。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在只有仲介業實價登錄、只有包租業實價登錄，代管業目前還沒有，更不要說一般的房東了，對吧？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們的房屋買賣實價登錄已經走了十年，院長，臺灣的租屋黑市還是占一大半的地方，有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學，他可能永遠都無法去申請，而且他可能只租幾年，這幾年就是現在大家看不到的地方，租屋是黑市，所以他就藏在陰影裡面，然後不准他報這個，不准他報那個，他也享受不到他所居住城市的社會福利，因為他永遠沒辦法入戶口。這個問題，我認為只要先把租屋實價登錄的制度慢慢的建立，我沒有要求你一下子建立，你租金補貼的對象可以拿來做實價登錄……"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們先把資訊透明化當成第一階段……"],["黃委員珊珊：代管業者也可以做實價登錄，接下來才是要求一般房東，將來如果實價登錄，我們給他什麼樣子的租稅赦免，也許是一個方式，我沒有定見，只是希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進，部長可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：至少你上任之後，我相信你一定有這個野心。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝黃委員的關心，我剛剛有提到，先把資訊透明化做到，要有一定的法源基礎，我們會來努力……"],["黃委員珊珊：資料都在你手上，什麼法源至少能夠讓它攤開來……"],["劉部長世芳：雖然資料在我手上，但也不能隨便就把它披露出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以要立法。"],["劉部長世芳：一定要有法律。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要訂出相關的規範，我沒有意見，我的意思是，我希望一個月之內，針對您剛剛所說的方案，給我一個書面的回應好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：可不可以多給我們一點時間，因為一個月之內的話，院會還在開。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，兩個月，至少下個會期前我會再問你同樣的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：下個會期之前。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來，今天大家都很關心警消，我今天要問的是人力的問題。院長，我們都從地方來，大概都知道警消的業務很重，至今半年以來已經有8個警消殉職了，每一次發生事情，我們就開始檢討，但是我們檢討完畢之後，發現其實有很多、很多的問題，裝備也好，訓練也好，其實還有很大的問題是人力不足。這個人力不足，之前也做過非常多的檢討，然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠、我人不夠，人為什麼不夠？各位可以看到，我們在107年就做了檢討，預計在112年服務人口數比要達到1比1,300，現在是113年了，請問部長，你達到了沒？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有達到。"],["黃委員珊珊：原因是什麼？我們在補足消防人力，尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。"],["劉部長世芳：速度太慢，不是比較慢，是很慢！因為1,300是一個基本標準，117年要到1,100，但是院長我現在要跟你直接說，從國際標準來看，這個還是差的、不行的，日本是1比760，韓國1比774，新加坡多一點、1比925，只有我們現在還在1,300！這個比例不要說其他城市，跟旁邊鄰近的先進國家相較，我們不應該輸給他們，加上現在少子化、高齡化，將來的消防更是重要、重中之重。從這個比例你也可以看出來，很特別，六都也很懸殊，不知道為什麼？大概只有臺北跟桃園是1,300多，其他縣市都是1,500以上，部長，什麼時候做得到？113年沒做到，你什麼時候要做到？"],["劉部長世芳：我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分，因為要補足專業的消防人力……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，所以你也希望至少一年之內1,300先到吧？"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量朝這個方向來努力，因為必須經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，這就是問題，我們是不是要在人力進用的過程中，再增加一些彈性，或者是再增加一些訓練的方式，讓他有人力補足的機會？"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員講得非常正確，我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商，未來在進用考試的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道這個考試蠻難考的，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：我們會加強這方面的訓練。"],["黃委員珊珊：其實很多人想考但考不上，可能要在進用人力的部分有更多方法。"],["劉部長世芳：對，對，他的到考率跟合格率不高。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我只要求你一年之內完成原來應該完成的1,300，但是現在看起來還是很困難。"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量朝這個方向努力，我不想太誇大，但我們朝這個方向努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，這是你的任務啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，也感謝委員的提醒，我始終認為這是一個文明的指標，我會請內政部全力去做……"],["黃委員珊珊：我沒有要求你跟日本一樣700啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：全力去做，我們那天到新竹看罹難的警消，我們就提到考用制度必須要嚴格再做檢討，讓更多的人能夠投入。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯！好，最後我要問一個問題，這大概也是我最重要的一個問題。院長你當過臺北市立委，對社子島應該比我還熟悉，最重要的是，我們已經在四年內完成非常多的程序，在短短四年，107年完成細部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部，甚至是二階段環評，但所謂的開發範圍跟抵價地比例，從109年6月送到中央內政部，到今天為止四年了，還沒有審。上個禮拜開過一次說明會，然後也有很多人來抗議，我都理解……"],["劉部長世芳：土徵小組的會議。"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是，部長，四年了，不能再拖了！其他的程序沒有人跑超過四年的，民國59年到現在限制開發，我58年次的，所以它已經54年了，多久？還要審多久？還要等多久？我只想問部長這個問題。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員的關心，我們上個禮拜開會的時候，有確實要求臺北市政府……"],["黃委員珊珊：臺北市政府已經溝通、溝通、再溝通，現在98%的民眾同意，剩下2%可能有意見，在你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下，現在剔除的範圍都已經報部，也都說明了，部長，要溝通可以，但多少時間可以出來？"],["劉部長世芳：再給我們一點時間，譬如我也要拜訪臺北市長……"],["黃委員珊珊：我再問你一個問題，你會不會像林右昌一樣，又開始說我要弄輕軌、弄這個、弄那個，然後又耽誤了這個案子？"],["劉部長世芳：我瞭解都市計畫的審議程序，所以我要跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：你不會再像林右昌一樣，跑去跟人家講東講西，然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過？"],["劉部長世芳：到目前為止，我沒有講東講西啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，很好，我也希望你不要再講東講西。"],["劉部長世芳：我們再做一些好的溝通，再告訴你最後……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，那就跟我們再做一個回報，好嗎？謝謝！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓的貴賓是澳洲新南威爾斯州議會的代表團，我們在此掌聲歡迎。So we welcome our friends and guests, delegation from New South Wales Legislative Assembly . Welcome.","接下來，我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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所以院長我很讚賞你一上任就發現這個問題那這個問題在哪裡因為我們來自民間所以我大概簡單講今年5月交易動數達到2萬6千多而且這是10年來的新高所以跟我說沒有跟房市"},{"start":97.901,"end":124.082,"text":"吹房市長這是不可能的。．第二個之前財政部說因為他佔的比例少但是我現在要告訴你說星星之火已經燎原這個燎原的狀況其實非常的嚴重為什麼現在的年輕人天下應該是某個媒體下了一個註解當政府一直打房一直希望能夠搞居住正義通過平均地點條例要打房但是打不過就加入他"},{"start":125.246,"end":148.549,"text":"讓年輕人買房子就成為討好年輕人的選票的方法。 這不是我講的是一個媒體給現在的政府下的主張。 是,原來都不是,但是最後變成這樣。 現在的狀況就是,年輕人變成人頭。 我們大概看到的幾個問題,第一個,內政部,財政部,公益股銀行,他們的分工很清楚。 內政部"},{"start":149.417,"end":153.621,"text":"我這邊要跟院長直接說現在的問題就是新青安的年輕人第一他有非常多的銀行的話術告訴他不用把租金交給"},{"start":173.277,"end":173.517,"text":"黃珊珊．"},{"start":193.806,"end":219.844,"text":"院長這已經是不管是銀行業者重建業者還有所有的新的建商都在做一樣的事情第二個最嚴重的問題是這些年輕人他們知道這種狀況但是還是繼續投下去我們擔心寬卸期過了才是臺灣房市泡沫的開始您覺得呢部分在市場上的一些"},{"start":221.102,"end":240.497,"text":"不動產的專家也看到了諸如此類的問題,讓我們一起各個部會來提出一些他們現在的作為跟未來的經濟,那這個是財政部跟公股銀行的事,我今天請部長上來,就是發現一個很嚴重的問題,其實他們貸款之前要求這個要自主,"},{"start":241.055,"end":244.398,"text":"我上次問財政部跟內政部的時候﹖他們說有可能因為他們沒有勾結"},{"start":268.479,"end":295.269,"text":"部長你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶有沒有跟新清安貸款做勾結開始做了沒?我們在還沒有進行檢討機制之前確實發現這個缺點是!他拿著租金補貼還拿著新清安貸款是!所以我們為了要勾結勾結出來的話可能會把他踢出新清安貸款這就是我二月份問的事情謝謝委員那時候發現這個問題然後現在你們的方法是這樣但是我現在看到比較好笑的是又來了"},{"start":296.449,"end":301.21,"text":"宮古宇航說我要開始讓他們寫切結。 院長你覺得切結有用嗎?"},{"start":301.21,"end":302.29,"text":"內容是什麼?"},{"start":302.29,"end":317.394,"text":"切結就是說我保證我自助。 我不是自助我就怎樣怎樣。 將來可以避免在如果真正嚴重到需要進行法律的時候在這個糾紛當中訴訟當中也許切結出是一個有效的依據。 切結有效現在就簽了但是沒有人查。 切結就是無效。"},{"start":318.234,"end":341.001,"text":"所以剛剛部長說的,勾結很重要。第二個,你有51萬戶的租金補貼戶,你還有包租代管戶,這些都是你可以直接勾結的對象。所以財政部不要再跟我說,工股銀行寫的切結就沒事了。現在要開始做這件事。第三個,這個問題就在於我們回到了我們現在是不是居住正義做一半。"},{"start":342.165,"end":369.101,"text":"因為我們現在住宅法很清楚很可愛說因為當時為了要讓大家變成公益出租人所以讓大家你的齁租金補貼我不會把你拿去做所得稅的集合但是現在至少可以做新清安的查核吧﹖是﹖可以吧﹖可以第二個就是因為如此所以我們的政府是不是姑息或者是我們政府姑息大家希望大家不要來報稅所以房東現在都不報稅"},{"start":371.263,"end":381.464,"text":"大家在租房子的時候最痛苦的三件事第一件,不准設戶口第二件,不准報稅第三件,不准去領租金補貼"},{"start":382.895,"end":404.523,"text":"劉副部長我上次在委員會的時候你也承認目前的困境就是如此對吧是但是我們後來有做一下檢討改進包括你所說的不是只有租屋補貼還有包括包租包租代管的業者他們我要找他來商量是就是說未來要把他所謂的租金對外披露至少資訊的揭露的話是可以根本知道需要先處理"},{"start":405.123,"end":418.279,"text":"我現在要跟院長說的就是臺灣是一個很奇怪的地方因為我們大家都希望有自己的房子有了自己的房子租出去就希望當包租公但不想繳稅所以房租黑市存在在臺灣已經幾十年"},{"start":420.969,"end":442.144,"text":"這個狀況我們目前為止在相關內政部的統計我們大概是有98萬戶的成租人大概總人口大概是260萬人如果再加上26萬個學生在外面租房子上學的其實我們全臺灣有將近300萬的租屋族也就是租房子過日子的人這300萬人他們能夠"},{"start":446.391,"end":462.43,"text":"所謂申請到租金補貼的其實還是只是少部分如果沒有300萬人可是我們只有51萬個租金補貼現在它的比例條件我同意但是我的意思是說很多人還是拿不到租金補貼尤其是學生"},{"start":463.168,"end":469.694,"text":"但是我們現在已經掌握到了大概有50萬到60萬筆是屬於租金補貼的部分。 是,我們有這麼多,51萬筆是租金補貼,有8萬戶是包租代管,這些有沒有做所謂的租屋實價登錄?"},{"start":479.229,"end":505.791,"text":"目前為主我們大概會要用勾結的方式來處理。（對所以還是一樣（黃委員我想你都知道如果我們要做資訊揭露的話我們還是要依照法令上否則會違反政府資訊公開法或是個人隱私法所以我們現在在4月19號的時候已經邀集地方政府跟產業工會來召開這個會議那我們所根據的法源就是所謂的租賃市場市場租賃住宅市場發展（沒關係你要有法源還可以再幫你加一條法源"},{"start":506.411,"end":535.409,"text":"是,我們已經有這個,要增訂包租﹖部長我的意思是,你不支持全面的租金實價登錄﹖實價登錄它當然是一個資訊透明化之一﹖但是要看對象﹖它的對象除了我們所有的房東之外﹖現在只有仲介業實價登錄﹖現在只有包租業實價登錄﹖代管業目前還沒有﹖更不要說一般的房東了,對吧﹖對﹖但是我們的房屋買賣實價登錄已經走了10年了,院長﹖"},{"start":537.513,"end":554.873,"text":"臺灣是租屋黑市還是佔一大半的地方有非常多的年輕人在臺北求學他可能永遠不可能去申請而且他可能只租了幾年這幾年就是我們現在大家看不到的地方租屋是黑市所以他就藏在陰影裡面"},{"start":555.819,"end":555.959,"text":"：黃珊珊"},{"start":583.103,"end":605.658,"text":"防東將來如果實價登錄我們給他什麼樣子的租稅的赦免也許是一個方式我沒有定見我希望開始朝租屋實價登錄的方向邁進部長可以吧至少你上任之後我相信你一定有這個野心是謝謝黃委員的關心我剛有提到先把資訊透明化是把它做到那一定要有一定的法源資料都在你手上"},{"start":606.378,"end":629.998,"text":"怎麼法院讓他能夠至少看一看（資料在我手上不能隨便就把它披露出來（是,所以要立法（一定要有法律（所以要訂出相關的規範（我沒有意見（我的意思是說我希望一個月之內（針對這些您剛剛所說的方案（也可以給我一個書面的回應好不好（可不可以多給我們一點時間（因為一個月之內的話我們院會還不開（好,兩個月至少下個會期前我會再問同樣的問題（下個會期之前（好不好"},{"start":630.638,"end":637.625,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":650.168,"end":677.805,"text":"每一次發生事情我們就開始檢討。但是我們檢討完畢之後發現其實有很多很多的問題裝備也好訓練也好那其實還有很大的問題是人力不足這個人力不足目前為止之前也做過非常多的檢討然後地方政府每一次都說我人不夠我人不夠人為什麼不夠各位可以看到我們在107年就做了一個檢討"},{"start":679.315,"end":687.381,"text":"我們在112年要達到一比一千三,現在是113年,請問部長你達到了沒?"},{"start":687.381,"end":690.304,"text":"沒有達到。 沒有,原因是什麼?"},{"start":690.304,"end":694.467,"text":"我們在補足這個消防人力尤其是專業人力上面速度比較慢。"},{"start":694.921,"end":714.268,"text":"速度太慢不是比較慢是很慢因為1300是一個基本的標準117年要到1100但是院長我現在要跟您直接說從國際的標準這個還是差的不行日本1比760韓國1比774新加坡多一點1比925只有我們現在還在1300"},{"start":722.274,"end":749.745,"text":"這個比例不要說我們跟其他的城市﹐旁邊鄰近的先進國家﹐我們不應該輸給他﹐加上我們少子化﹐高齡化﹐將來的消防更是重要﹐重中之重﹐所以這個比例你可以看得出來﹐很特別﹐這個六都也很懸殊﹐不知道為什麼﹐大概只有臺北跟桃園還在1300多﹐其他都是1500以上﹐部長﹐什麼時候做得到﹐"},{"start":751.646,"end":754.068,"text":"113年沒做到,你什麼時候要做到?"},{"start":754.068,"end":763.778,"text":"我覺得我沒有辦法馬上回應黃委員所說的部分,因為我們要補足這個專業的消防人力。 我知道,所以我們希望能夠盡量在至少一年之內,一千三先到吧。"},{"start":765.37,"end":786.861,"text":"我們盡量朝這個方向來努力,因為他必須要經過考試資格才能成為真正的專業消防人力。 我知道,這就是問題是,我們是不是要在人力禁用的過程中再增加一些彈性,或者是再增加一些訓練的方式,讓他有人力補足的機會。黃委員講得非常正確,我們已經跟考試院做過這方面的協商,未來再進行考試的時候,我們會加強,會加強這方面的訓練。"},{"start":791.323,"end":791.343,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":808.335,"end":829.322,"text":"感謝我的提醒,我始終認為這是一個文明的指標,我會請內政部全力去做,全力去做,我們那天到新竹看罹難的這個警消,我們就跟他講說考用制度必須要嚴格的再做一個檢討,讓更多的人能夠投入。最後我要問這個問題,這個大概也是我最重要的一個問題。"},{"start":830.779,"end":859.198,"text":"院長你當過臺北市的立委﹖你對社子島應該還比我還熟悉那最重要的是我們已經在4年內完成了非常多的程序短短4年107年我們完成了西部計畫、都市計畫跟相關的報部甚至二階段環評但是所謂的開發範圍跟底價地的比例從109年6月送到中央內政部到今天為止4年了還沒審上個禮拜開過一次"},{"start":860.487,"end":882.857,"text":"說明會,然後也有很多人來抗議,我都領寫,我的意思是說部長,四年了不能再拖了,其他的程序沒有人超過跑四年,民國59年到現在限制開發,我58年次,所以它已經54年了,多久?還要等多久?還要等多久?我只想問部長這個問題。"},{"start":883.8,"end":902.297,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關心,我們上個禮拜開會的時候確實的要求臺北市政府啊,臺北市政府已經溝通溝通再溝通,現在98%的民眾同意,剩下2%可能有意見,你怎麼跟他溝通都沒有用的情況下,但是剔除的範圍也都已經跟報部也都說明了。"},{"start":903.188,"end":925.323,"text":"部長我希望要溝通可以多少時間,再給我們一點時間,像譬如說我也要拜訪臺北市長,我再問你一個,你會不會像林佑昌一樣,又開始說我要弄輕軌弄這個弄那個,然後把這個案子耽誤?我了解都市計畫的審議程序,所以我要跟國會報告。所以你不會再像林佑昌說又跑去跟人家講東講西,然後又不知道這個案子會不會繼續過嗎?到目前為止我沒有講東講西啊。"},{"start":935.674,"end":935.694,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]}},{"id":"154171","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154171","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb7e49c806f32b9b5d4c867c7a3ae89c54664f2be01c033e41664dd9db077cb6475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:12:26 - 11:28:02","影片長度":"00:15:36","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T11:12:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T11:28:02+08:00","duration":936,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時12分）麻煩請院長以及原民會主委。"],["主席：我們請卓院長備詢，還有原民會主委備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：院長好、主委好。關於禁伐補償，禁伐補償的面積截至目前為止統計大概有七萬多公頃，其實這些土地有很多是可以再進行其他林業以及農業的利用，而且這些林業與農業發展利用的價值很有可能是高於禁伐補償的金額，所以我特別以這個作為開場白，因為在我們這次禁伐補償的修法之後，大家又開始重視，來討論林業經濟的問題。原住民的土地很多是在森林區，過去行政部會常常提到除林下經濟外，還有林業經濟的問題，我們今天就要來談一談林業經濟。","在民國78年全面禁止採伐天然林之後，加上民國80年的臺灣森林經營管理方案，政府已經倡導二、三十年不砍樹，但是完全不砍樹真的是好事嗎？我們有新的省思喔！林業署署長林華慶在2017年就曾經發表文章，表示人工林的部分應該要適度的砍伐，過去那麼久的時間不砍樹，導致我們林業技術的人才凋零，整個林業市場是萎縮的。臺灣現在林木自給率只剩下百分之一點多，所以林業署在兩年前提出發展國產材的施政目標，希望在2027年國內自給率可以達到百分之五。","在原住民保留地有相當的面積其實都是竹林，竹子其實有一百多種用途，是相當棒的一個植物。竹子的部分，林業署在兩年前有推動新興竹產業發展計畫的10年中長程計畫，就是希望發展臺灣的林業經濟，所以森林完全不砍伐對森林的健康不是件好事情。當然前面的10年中長程計畫其實對原住民是相當有幫助的，因為我剛剛有提過，我們原保地有相當的面積其實都是竹林，所以我希望發展國產材不要只是農業部的一個目標而已，你們應該要有具體的規劃，而且不單單只是竹產業而已，希望有個中長程的計畫，振興整個林業經濟的市場，我們開闢這個市場的需求，提升相關的技術，然後再結合森林的固碳、造林獎勵，還有禁伐補償等等這些政策，才能打造林業經濟再生產、加工，還有市場整個完整的一個產業鏈。","過去就是我們欠缺經濟及產業政策的誘因，才會導致我們臺灣國產林木的林業市場幾乎完全快要消失了，非常可惜，所以希望我們可以再繼續重新活絡我們林業經濟的市場，來提高、帶動我們林業用地的經濟價值，那麼我們大家自然而然就會把這個土地去做更有效、更有價值的利用，不會繼續停留，變成禁伐補償好像是我們唯一可以去申請income的一個方式。","今天列席的部會沒有農業部，但是有原民會，原住民保留地大部分是農業用地，我也希望這個計畫由農業部來主導，因為只有農業部有這個專業可以來協助發展林業市場，提高林業技術。我想請教院長，我們今天在這邊是不是可以請農業部好好會同原民會來支持我這個想法，然後提出一個期程、一個看什麼樣的計畫？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我先報告一下，委員，我想這個非常謝謝委員的指教！我們目前正在跟農業部，就剛才你講的這個方面，是不是在林下經濟還有一些森林保育方面，我們多做一些努力，不要說只有等著在領禁伐補償金，我們還可以再多做一些事的話，這個還沒有成熟，我們還要跟農業部來討論，希望它能夠趕快來……"],["陳委員瑩：其實這是我在這次禁伐補償修法通過之後的一個省思，當然我有提案，但是我更希望在我們既有的補助之下，在有限可以利用的部分土地之內，我們額外再創造更多的經濟價值，讓族人有更好的收入，這是我的用意。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來，我另外也要請內政部部長上臺。相信院長過去有去過好幾次原鄉部落，最近一次我們也去了秀林鄉，也去了新城鄉，主委您可能也要留步一下，雖然主要要問內政部，但是也請原民會對主委這個問題要留意聽。","我們原鄉部落的生活其實非常純樸、相當可愛，經濟模式也相對單純，如果你穿梭在部落當中，幾乎每一個部落你一定會看到小吃店、麵攤，特別是小吃店，還有投10元硬幣的卡拉OK，還有雜貨店，其實這就是原鄉一個小小很可愛的經濟模式。院長，你們千萬不要小看部落的小吃麵店，因為這個麵店可能照顧了父母長期在外工作、留在部落的孩子，這些孩子放學回家，沒有家長照顧，可能就會先去麵店吃晚餐。當然卡拉OK更是我們不可或缺，很重要的，小吃部裡面一定都會有卡拉OK，卡拉OK串起族人之間的情感，更重要的是它也舒緩了我們在工作上所面臨的壓力還有委屈。","這樣一個可愛的原鄉經濟模式，在我們的國土計畫法通過之後，依照第十一條的規定，應該要照原基法第二十一條的規定訂定原住民族土地及海域管制規定，凡在105年5月1日前已經存在的建物，未來在國土計畫法上路之後，土地都將變成建築用地，以解決原鄉長期建地不足的問題。雖然可以變成建地的目前只限居住使用，但是這些單純經營麵攤、小吃店的原住民，他們這些小店面可能就在住家不遠處，就在附近而已，這些營業處所的土地仍然沒有辦法合法化，沒有搭上我剛剛前面講的那一波解決方案。","依照6月13號立法院內政委員會的報告，賴清德總統2024年的競選政見之一是，總統希望尊重並依照原住民族的生活模式去制定原住民族土地使用的管制規則。所謂的生活模式，絕對不是只有居住這麼狹隘，當然包括我們原住民的文化，更包括了我們原住民的經濟活動，而且原住民的經濟活也不是只停留在過去的狩獵、採集而已，剛剛我講的那些小吃店、麵攤等等，就是我們原鄉每個部落都會有的一個經濟模式。所以希望接下來內政部跟原民會在討論原住民族土地使用管制規則的時候，不要把這些純營業處所漏掉了，這個相當重要，讓這些土地能夠合法化，讓它可以變成建築用地，院長是不是可以來幫我們解決這個問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，剛剛您說的這個麵攤、小吃店、雜貨店，都很可能是我們政府在偏鄉地區還沒有觸及到的社會安全網的一環，而且它也可能是未來地方創生的前身，所以這種經濟活動，我們應該用比較開放而且積極的態度去看待。而土地的使用就如同總統所說的，我們怎麼樣來做土海法的管制規則，能夠落實而且能夠針對各個地方不同的形態、生活的方式、營業的內容等等，來做一個合理的規範，我想原民會和內政部將來都必須做很多跨部會的聯繫。"],["陳委員瑩：所以，接下來就是說原民會跟內政部在討論這些土地管制規則的時候，也希望內政部部長這邊可以多多幫忙，幫我們來解決這些問題，而不是就讓新的規劃消滅了部落族人的生計還有快樂的共同回憶，我做這樣的請求。請部長回座。","最後一個問題，其實，院長，這個問題是我在這邊質詢的第四次，從兩年多前我就開始在推動這個政策，已經歷經三位行政院長，我希望這件事情可以在卓院長的手中完成，畫下完美的句點，就差您這麼臨門一腳。政府在歸還原住民土地的政策上有不斷的滾動檢討，但是因為政府的規定限制了原保地的流通性，導致我們就算有具有高經濟價值的原保地，銀行仍不願意把我們的原保地視為擔保品，所以，我不斷努力了非常久，終於協調出一個完整的規劃，請教一下原民會，這個規劃要請你們研擬貸款要點，到底什麼時候可以完成？你們還需要多久的時間？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員，我們在7月底應該就可以協商會議來把它……"],["陳委員瑩：就是再一個月左右嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是、是、是。"],["陳委員瑩：報告院長，這個不是找主委的麻煩，不是他的錯啦！其實在內閣還沒有交接之前，我得到原民會的回復不知道從哪一個月開始就說一個月，上次我在委員會問，又一個月，今天還要再一個月，所以我希望這是最後一個月，7月底，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，今天在院長面前也做了這樣子的宣示，我們的要點7月底一定要生出來。再來……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個有必要再跟金融單位去處理一下，因為他們現在對於移轉對象的限定以及市場價值的認定這兩個還是癥結之所在，我會請原民會跟我們金融單位就這兩個癥結來做比較有效率的協商。"],["陳委員瑩：當然一開始大家會有很多的疑慮及考量，但是這樣一個政策性的貸款在授信的過程其實是完全依照銀行的機制，所以金管會是同意的，財政部也是支持的，現在差了唯一一個單位，就是公股銀行點頭承辦。在整個協調的過程，其實臺銀都有參與，截至目前為止，他們仍然維持不置可否，只說可不可以多幾間銀行一起來承辦？這句話透露一個玄機，表示他們不是不能辦，而且還可以大家一起來辦。只是我覺得公股銀行在配合政府政策之下應該要勇於任事，因為現在所有的配套、所有的規定我們都規劃好了，當然現在是從試辦開始做，所以我們找一家，沒有一下子找八家，因為萬一大家都不願意好好試試看，直接八家聯合說全部不行，這樣我也是不樂於看到，所以我們還是拜託臺銀，今天就是請院長開個金口，是不是在都已經規劃好的前提，院長裁示，就從臺銀開始承接這個業務？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我會請主委積極的聯絡，來關注、來協助，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：因為原民會沒有辦法，所以經過長期的協調，我只是在這邊特別再請院長可以出面開個金口，不然，可能下一次我又質詢，說您是第四任的院長了。我想這件事情真的就是差臺銀這個部分，我們就來試辦一下，就從一間開始試辦嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會來溝通、來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.14721875,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.505343750000002,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.77909375,"end":22.609718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.11909375,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.097843750000003,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.20721875,"end":35.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.48096875,"end":37.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.594718750000006,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.72284375,"end":54.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.75659375,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.773468750000006,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.009718750000005,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.04346875,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.477218750000006,"end":64.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.83096875000001,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.94846875,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.56284375000001,"end":108.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.46534375,"end":111.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.99659375,"end":114.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.34221875,"end":132.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.14096875,"end":150.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.55596875,"end":216.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.06034375000002,"end":219.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.55346875,"end":277.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.70909375,"end":315.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.89721875000004,"end":320.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.56784375,"end":317.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.48721875,"end":330.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.06784375,"end":343.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.45409375,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.14534375,"end":352.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.76909375,"end":371.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.21346875,"end":371.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.32721875000004,"end":378.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.02659375,"end":381.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.16534375000003,"end":390.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.34096875,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.61034375,"end":422.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.25159375000004,"end":397.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.10409375,"end":433.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.39346875,"end":490.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.46909375,"end":504.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.09971875,"end":505.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.78721875,"end":507.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.54659375000006,"end":520.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.6753437500001,"end":525.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.53096875,"end":543.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.50284375,"end":610.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":610.3828437500001,"end":614.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":614.7197187500001,"end":615.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.63096875,"end":616.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":617.3859687500001,"end":619.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":619.5122187500001,"end":621.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":622.54971875,"end":625.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.6172187500001,"end":623.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":625.48596875,"end":631.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.5365937500001,"end":626.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":631.83096875,"end":632.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":632.97846875,"end":633.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":634.07534375,"end":638.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.6484687500001,"end":640.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":640.84221875,"end":643.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":644.08221875,"end":645.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":645.3647187500001,"end":649.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.68471875,"end":653.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.15659375,"end":682.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.1015937500001,"end":689.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.72909375,"end":707.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.07221875,"end":745.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.0915937500001,"end":748.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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主委好那在這個禁法補償我們就是說目前禁法補償的這些面積呢截至目前為止統計大概有7萬多公頃其實這些土地呢有很多其實是可以再進行其他的這個林業以及農業的利用而且呢這些林業與農業的這個發展利用的價值呢"},{"start":60.541,"end":63.523,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":78.952,"end":86.002,"text":"原住民的土地很多是在森林區,過去行政部會常常有提到零下經濟外還有林業經濟的問題,我們今天就要來談一談林業經濟。"},{"start":92.79,"end":110.691,"text":"可是呢在這個民國78年全面禁止采伐天然林之後呢加上民國80年的臺灣森林經營管理的方案政府已經倡導2、30年不砍樹那但是呢這完全不砍樹是真的是好事嗎?"},{"start":112.185,"end":132.451,"text":"我們有這個新的省思那林業署署長林華慶在2017年就曾經發表文章表示人工林的部分應該要適度的砍伐那過去那麼久的時間不砍樹導致我們林業的技術人才凋零那整個林業市場是萎縮的"},{"start":133.772,"end":157.194,"text":"臺灣現在林木的自給率只剩下1%多（所以林業署在兩年前有提出希望發展國產材的施政目標（在2027年希望國內自給率可以達到5%（在原住民保留地有相當的面積其實都是竹林（"},{"start":158.595,"end":186.749,"text":"竹子其實它有100多種用途是相當好的相當棒的一個植物那竹子的部分呢林業署在兩年前呢它有推動這個新興竹產的新興竹產業發展計畫的這個10年中長城計畫就是希望發展臺灣的林業經濟所以森林完全不砍伐對森林的健康不是件好事情"},{"start":187.529,"end":214.171,"text":"那當然前面的這個10年的這個中長城計畫﹖其實對原住民是相當有幫助的﹖因為畢竟我剛剛有提過我們其實元寶地﹖很多相當的面積其實都是竹林喔﹖所以我希望這個發展國產財﹖不要再只是農業部的一個目標而已﹖我們應該要有具體的規劃﹖而且不單單只是竹產業而已喔﹖希望說有個這個中長城的計畫﹖振興整個林業經濟的市場﹖"},{"start":217.413,"end":235.527,"text":"我們開闢這個市場的需求提升相關的技術然後再結合這個森林的固碳造林獎勵還有淨法補償等等這些政策才能打造林業經濟在生產加工還有這個市場整個完整的一個產業鏈"},{"start":236.988,"end":252.108,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚"},{"start":252.108,"end":277.705,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚"},{"start":277.825,"end":282.211,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":294.025,"end":315.041,"text":"因為只有農業部有這個專業可以來協助發展林業市場來提高這個林業技術那我想請教院長是不是我們今天在這邊可以請這個農業部好好來會同這個園民會來支持我這個想法然後提出一個期程一個看什麼樣的計畫"},{"start":316.042,"end":341.447,"text":"我先報告一下委員,我想這個非常謝謝委員的指教那我目前正在跟農業部就這個剛才講這個方面是不是在林下經濟還有一些森林保育方面我們多做一些努力不要說只有等著再領精華補償金我們還可以再多做一些事的話那這個還沒有成熟我們還一次兩次要跟這個農業部來討論希望他能夠趕快來"},{"start":344.027,"end":370.904,"text":"這是我在這次進法補償我們修法過之後的一個省思。當然我有提案但是我更希望在我們既有的補助之下額外在有限可以利用的部分土地之內我們額外再創造更多的經濟價值讓族人有更好的收入這是我的用意。"},{"start":372.765,"end":389.8,"text":"接下來我另外也要請內政部部長上臺相信院長在過去有去過好幾次的原鄉部落我們最近一次我們也去了秀林鄉也去了新城鄉"},{"start":392.786,"end":415.617,"text":"主委,您可能也要留步一下。雖然主要要問內政部,但也請原民會主委這個問題要留意聽。我們原鄉部落的生活其實非常純樸,相當可愛。經濟模式也相對單純。在部落裡,如果你穿梭在這個部落當中,"},{"start":416.357,"end":434.326,"text":"﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":434.446,"end":448.462,"text":"院長,你們千萬不要小看這個部落的小吃麵店,因為這個麵店他可能照顧了就是長期在外工作的,父母長期在外工作的,但是孩子留在部落。"},{"start":449.343,"end":473.353,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚陳瑩﹚"},{"start":473.553,"end":500.731,"text":"在這樣的一個可愛的原鄉的經濟模式在我們國土計劃法通過之後依照第11條的規定應該要照原基法第21條的規定訂定了這個原住民族土地及海域管制規定凡在105年5月1日前已經存在的建物未來國土計劃法上路之後土地都將變成了建築用地"},{"start":501.331,"end":525.387,"text":"那麼解決原鄉長期建地不足的問題這是雖然說可以變成建地的目前只有限制在這個居住使用所以這些單純經營麵攤小吃店的原住民他們這些小店面可能就只是在"},{"start":526.508,"end":526.548,"text":"（6月13日（"},{"start":544.745,"end":559.473,"text":"我們賴清德總統2024年的競選政見總統希望尊重並依照原住民族的生活模式去制定原住民族土地使用的管制規則所謂的生活模式絕對不是只有居住這麼狹隘"},{"start":560.794,"end":576.237,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚"},{"start":576.237,"end":599.206,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚陳瑩﹚陳瑩"},{"start":599.206,"end":603.727,"text":"謝謝委員。剛剛您說的這個麵攤、小吃店、雜貨店,它都很可能是我們政府在偏鄉地區還沒有觸及到的一個社會安全網的一環。"},{"start":622.534,"end":649.514,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚"},{"start":649.914,"end":677.555,"text":"原民會跟內政部將來都必須做跨部會的很多的聯繫的。所以接下來就是說原民會跟內政部在討論這些土地管制規則的時候呢也希望部長內政部長這邊可以多多幫忙幫我們來解決這些問題而不是就是說讓新的規劃消滅了部落族人的生計還有快樂的這個共同回憶那我做這樣子的請求那"},{"start":678.856,"end":706.114,"text":"請部長回座我接下來就是說現在最後一個問題其實院長今天這個問題是我在這邊質詢的第四次那從這個兩年多前我就開始在推動這個政策已經歷經三位行政院長我希望這件事情可以在卓院長的手中完成畫下完美的據點就差您這麼臨門一腳"},{"start":708.695,"end":733.425,"text":"政府在歸還原住民土地的政策上有不斷的滾動檢討。但是因為政府的規定限制了這個原保地的流通性,導致我們就算有這個具有高經濟價值的原保地,銀行仍不願意把這個我們的原保地視為一個擔保品。所以我一直不斷的努力了非常久,終於我們協調出一個完整的規劃。"},{"start":734.565,"end":745.011,"text":"那請教一下園民會這個規劃呢要請你們研擬這個貸款要點到底什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":746.206,"end":748.128,"text":"你還需要．你們還需要多久的時間?．陳瑩"},{"start":766.905,"end":766.925,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":786.5,"end":802.018,"text":"好,那今天那個在院長面前也做了這樣子的宣誓,我們要點7月底一定要申出來。好,再來... 總統委員這個有必要再跟金融單位去處理一下,因為他們現在對於這個移產對象的限定,"},{"start":802.739,"end":819.155,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚﹚﹚"},{"start":819.155,"end":834.804,"text":"﹚陳瑩﹚"},{"start":835.084,"end":850.158,"text":"一個單位就是這個公股銀行點頭承辦那在整個這個協調的這個過程其實臺銀都有參與那臺銀截至目前為止他們當然仍然維持一個不置可否"},{"start":850.618,"end":870.273,"text":"指說可不可以多幾間銀行一起來承辦﹖這句話透露了一個玄機表示他們不是不能辦而且還可以大家一起來辦那只是說我覺得說這個公股銀行在配合政府政策之下應該要勇於認識當然我們現在因為現在所有的配套所有規定我們都規劃好了"},{"start":872.535,"end":898.744,"text":"但是就是說我們當然一個事辦現在是從事辦開始做所以我們找一家嘛沒有一下子找八家嘛因為萬一大家都不願意好好試試看直接八家聯合說全部不行這樣我也是不樂於看到所以我們還是拜託台銀那今天就是說請院長開個金口是不是都已經在規劃好的前提那院長才是我們就從台銀開始承接這個業務"},{"start":900.6,"end":926.649,"text":"我會請主委積極的聯絡來關注來協助因為原民會他沒有辦法所以在經過長期的協調我只是在這邊特別再請這個院長可以出面開個金口再不然可能又下一次我又質詢說您是第4位第4任的這個院長了我想這件事情真的就是差台銀這個部分那我們就"},{"start":927.97,"end":931.739,"text":"來示範一下吧,因為就從一間開始示範嘛。﹖我們會來溝通來處理﹖好,謝謝院長,謝謝。﹖謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154170","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154170","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb0160bf17eeed85194c867c7a3ae89c54664f2be01c033e419e5d282be114f2d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:56:04 - 11:12:11","影片長度":"00:16:07","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T10:56:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T11:12:11+08:00","duration":967,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":259,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（10時56分）謝謝主席，請行政院卓院長、內政部劉部長。"],["主席：請卓院長、內政部劉部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["林委員國成：好。院長、部長，我想辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["林委員國成：但是我特別一定要去強調，本黨一向是秉持理性、務實、科學，所以請你放心，我不會吵架，但是有一點，希望本席提出來的問題，院長就據實以對。我想院長當然於公於私，我個人是尊重的，但是我也希望部長針對問題的時候，特別要針對問題來回答本席，因為我也第一個不吵架，第二個針對問題，所以我們是務實來對白。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，其實我覺得質詢就像一面鏡子……"],["林委員國成：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：你看到的我就跟我看到的你一樣。"],["林委員國成：是。院長，我要你看一下，我們全國你的八萬大軍，也就是警察的形象，在這十年來，所有公務人員當中，形象最好的是警察，是完全被老百姓所承認的，所以我希望部長跟院長可以去看一下這個數據。各類公務人員的形象，過去警察是倒數的，可是這十年來，你們確確實實讓警察的形象提高了，老百姓過去對警察是又愛又恨，很討厭警察，但是又很需要警察，但是現在是倒過來，每一件事情都需要警察，所以第一個，我還是要肯定行政院跟內政部對於這部分的努力。但是我今天要跟院長、部長探討的就是，警察形象雖好，但是他的辛酸誰人知道？所以我今天借重這次的質詢，要讓院長跟部長去了解他們的酸甜苦辣。所以，院長，或許你管不到這裡，但是你一定要督導……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：警察自戕增多這個問題非常嚴重，院長，原因何在？根據103年到112年的統計，總共有52個警員自戕，平均每一年5個，但是今年從1月份到現在，我們已經有8個警察自戕，這代表什麼？代表雖然我們形象好，但是這部分確確實實在增加，為什麼警察的自戕會增加？所以，院長，這個議題值得多加思考，因為是你的八萬大軍，其實，臺灣很多的治安通通都是依靠警察，他貢獻良多，你們只是做政策引導，但是為什麼往年平均都5個，今年1月到6月已經8個，院長，你知道什麼原因嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是工作的壓力、家庭的因素，甚至有經濟的考量等等，還有個人對自己工作上未來的一些機會、陞遷，都會造成他工作的壓力。我想對員警我們都是非常的關懷，應該要從心理的層面，透過各種的政策去協助、瞭解、輔導，讓他能夠在人生觀以及工作的崗位上面能夠有一個比較正向的想法，所以我最近利用外出的時候，我真的經常到派出所，不預告、不通知的去坐一坐，看看他們實際的狀況，也許環境並不是那麼理想，我們要從這個方向來進步。"],["林委員國成：是，院長，你也是從基層上來，部長也是從基層上來，本席也是從基層上來，有時候看到警察他們的辛酸史，不是他們不做，而是他們的工作非常繁雜，已經讓他們的心靈無法承擔。院長，來！我為什麼今天要跟你探討這個問題，院長只有講對一半，每一次自戕的發生調查起來都只有三種原因，一、經濟；二、家庭因素；三、感情，院長、部長，難道真的只有這三種嗎？不是！所以我在這裡特別要院長去關心、要部長去重視，這個是非常重要的，因為原本每一年5個，現在從1月到6月已經8個，那這個原因是什麼？當然，我們也承認，新的警政署長張署長一上任，他是從基層上來，他就取消了十幾項不必要的評比，這也是一個減輕壓力的作法。所以我希望院長在督導、在關心和部長在執行的時候，要把這個列為重點，就是為什麼他會自戕，一個人的生命是可貴的，那為什麼他會這樣，因為他沒有辦法，就像院長所講的，精神壓力很大，身心靈已經受到非常沉重的壓力，不管是家庭也好，不管是工作也好，但是你們的報告裡面都是寫經濟、家庭、感情，這樣只有答對一半，因為工作壓力也有可能。所以我今天最主要是要提醒院長，你要去重視這個問題，那部長也特別要對這個事情加以預防，因為預防勝於治療。部長，我要聽聽你對這件事情的說法，本席質詢這個問題，雖然是一個小問題，但是非常的重大，現在已經有8個家庭是破碎的，那些家庭是雜亂的，所以我要聽聽部長的說法，你對這個問題要不要重視？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您的觀察非常的正確，因為你本來就是非常關心警消的權益，在我上任之後，包括張榮興署長上任之後，真的是取消不必要的評比，減輕他們在工作上面不必要的壓力。那我們都知道，社會變遷確實造成很多多元的、不同的壓力來源，我想每一個行業都會有，但是我們對警察同仁是把他們當成自己的兄弟姐妹，所以當我知道我們現在關於心理輔導的機制只有80萬的時候，我感到非常的訝異，我今年已經提高到300萬，希望明年提高到500萬，而且不是只有內部裡面所謂的關老師這些，我希望他們去找大醫院身心健康科的醫師，可以用駐診的方式，可以用協助的方式，而且是散布在北、中、南每個地方，而不是只有在大都會地區，這樣來協助他們，讓他們在工作之餘也可以找專業的身心健康科醫師來做諮詢，我相信能夠慢慢減輕他們在這方面的壓力。那當然重點就是在於我們未來在勤務上面能不能再做簡化，讓大家更尊重警察，但是警察也不需要為了不必要的、繁重的評比而付出很多時間。"],["林委員國成：部長，你發現到這個問題，我要拜託院長，真的你要支持內政部，真的一定要去支持，為什麼？根據這些資料，也就是全國自殺防治中心的推估，我們雖然是8萬，我們六萬多個警察，有1萬個人需要心理輔導，1萬人喔！所以你的預算111年的時候是編80萬，112年當然有提升，現在你說要編300萬、500萬，部長，不夠！因為有一萬多個人。","我們可以去看看國外的警察，雖然他的業務繁重，但他是有業餘輔導時間喔！這個就跟心理有關係，所以我要拜託院長，這個部分你要把它當成……不要以為員警自戕是一個小事，錯！真的是一個大事！"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對是大事。"],["林委員國成：更何況為什麼我會提出這個諮詢？最主要的原因是因為警察在這裡都沒有人替他發聲，所以我要拜託院長在這個部分，有一萬多個人需要去諮詢，現在變成我們都沒有專業的人員，你要用局長、用隊長、用長官去做這些輔導是不行的。"],["劉部長世芳：不是、不是，對不起，我們是專業的……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，除了剛剛部長講的預算有增加之外，我們委外諮詢的機構也從94處會增加到120處，未來有需要的話，我們還是會跟大的機構、大的醫院來合作，就是朝他的生命教育以及他的情緒管理、壓力抒解……"],["林委員國成：要專業啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：來做一些更有效的……"],["林委員國成：院長，我提出這個問題都沒有政治性的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解，很好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：是你們自己的警察這些人命關天的問題，也讓警察覺得在這個警察家庭裡面，第一個，他雖然要出勤，但是他是受保障、受關懷的，所以部長，這個部分真的是比較缺乏。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["林委員國成：因為你們兩位也剛上任，所以在這個部分，長官非常重要，如果這個預算可以多撥一點，災害就會少一點。我看今年，尤其今年已經8件了、8件了，也有新的，也有長官，也有什麼……所以這些東西不要有粉飾太平的心態，真的要正視這個問題！"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們不會等閒視之。"],["林委員國成：部長，本席在這裡要建議，第一個，擴大這個部分的預算；第二個，輔導要有專業化。不是自己長官來輔導，這個效果不彰，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有朝這個方向。"],["林委員國成：另外就是要做一個長期研究，為什麼會這樣。最後一個就是我們的工作能夠減少就減少，當然也不是說什麼都不做，最起碼不必要的評比能減就減，我相信現在的張署長也很願意去聽這些事，所以在這裡本席要特別拜託院長多支持內政部，拜託部長要多關心我們全國警察的這個部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛部長講的那個我們擴大預算或增加諮詢機構的事情，我會請部長請署長、各縣市的局長、分局長一直落實到基層下去，一定要完全來注意到這個事情……"],["林委員國成：是的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們即刻加強來做。"],["林委員國成：是啦！院長，你現在就很好啊！到派出所去慰問、慰問，這樣會鼓舞士氣啊！這個做法是對的，好不好？過去行政院長很少去關心警政的問題，雖然這是很重要的，但是只要院長一個好聽話可以鼓舞我們的士氣，這是很重要的。我不是警界出身，但是我看到警察這樣的情況，認為真的是有必要，希望院長這裡能夠支持、部長這裡能夠去關懷，好不好？","另外，我利用這個小小的時間特別來跟部長研究臺北市中山區大彎北段這個案子，其實這個案子我要替這些住民跟院長、部長投訴，這個不要變成歷史的共業啦！其實這是過去的政府他們規劃不當，造成老百姓既成事實的歷史共業，所以在這個部分有沒有可能……據我瞭解，好，你說過去是柯文哲想要做，現在蔣萬安所要做的，但是我們不要有政黨色彩嘛！我跟你講，老百姓也是你卓院長的子民啊！所以在這個部分有沒有好好的……拜託部長、拜託院長不要有政治思考。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["林委員國成：能不能在這個部分，因為善意的第三者是大彎北段的住戶，但是他要接受罰單、他要接受這些折磨，所以，院長，能不能在你的任內請我們劉部長在這個部分，也就是我們內政部的國土署在審這個預算的時候不要有顏色，只要針對問題來解決？我也建議，真的能夠中央跟地方把這個問題解決？是老百姓受益！所以，這個部分，部長，我相信你也剛來，但是沒有人送案子、退案子，已經將近4年，這是對臺北市大彎北段、大直地區1,800多戶的這些住戶非常不公平、非常不公平，這是前任政府的錯誤，要解決問題，應該是在卓內閣、卓院長的領導之下，把這個問題來解決！至於法令哪邊要怎麼做，中央政府跟地方政府要好好商討，把這個問題解決掉，因為受益的是老百姓！","院長，這個事情，本席已經跟你請命，那我也要拜託部長，你把它當成這是一件事，所以希望我們中央政府跟地方政府好好的去商討，圓滿地把它解決。院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道很多的居民為了這個事情處理了很久，地方民代也相當關心，現在瞭解到可能居民要付出一點點什麼樣的條件，這個再合理的來協商。"],["林委員國成：好啦！院長，關心一下啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我知道。"],["林委員國成：部長，關心一下。"],["劉部長世芳：會跟臺北市府來協商。"],["林委員國成：我反對有顏色的審查。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。"],["林委員國成：我希望老百姓就是老百姓，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["林委員國成：這個拜託院長、拜託部長一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝院長。下一位我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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院長或許你管不到這裡但是你一定要督導警察自強爭奪這個問題非常嚴重一定 原因何在那計103年到112年他的統計總共有52個警員自強平均每一年5個"},{"start":202.202,"end":216.133,"text":"但是從1月份到現在我們警察治強已經8個這代表什麼?就代表雖然我們形象好但是在這個部分確確實實為什麼會治強這個部分會"},{"start":223.198,"end":248.683,"text":"所以院長這個是值得啊因為是你的八萬大軍其實臺灣很多的治安通通都是警察他貢獻良多你們只是做政策引導但是在這裡為什麼平均都五個現在一月到六月已經八個院長你知道什麼原因嗎"},{"start":252.284,"end":266.374,"text":"應該工作的壓力、家庭的因素甚至有經濟的考量等等還有個人對自己工作上未來的一些機會、升先都是造成他工作的壓力我想對員警我們都是非常的關懷"},{"start":267.495,"end":268.315,"text":"你也是從基層上來,部長也是從基層上來。"},{"start":295.543,"end":316.053,"text":"本席也是從基層上來有時候看到警察他們的心酸是不是他們不做而是他們的工作環雜已經到他們心靈無法承擔來一六來其實我為什麼今天要跟你探討這個問題其實沒事發生"},{"start":320.287,"end":341.376,"text":"院長只有講對一半,每一次事情自強的發生,都是調查起來只有三種,一、經濟,二、家庭因素,三、暫停,感情,四。（所以一天不定,感覺好像七三行而已,不是欸,不是。"},{"start":341.963,"end":370.942,"text":"所以我在這裡特別要院長去關心要部長去重視這個是非常重要的因為五個每年五個現在一月到六月已經八個那這個原因為什麼當然我們也承認新的警政署長張署長他一上任他從基層上來他就取消十幾項不必要的評評"},{"start":372.924,"end":399.483,"text":"這個也是一個減薪,所以我希望院長在督導在關心部長在執行的時候要把這個放為重點是為什麼他會自強一個人的生命是可貴的那為什麼他會這樣他沒有辦法就像院長所講的精神壓力生命已經受到非常嚴重的沉重壓力"},{"start":400.484,"end":420.417,"text":"不管是家庭也好不管是工作也好但是你們的報告裡面都是經濟家庭感情這一點只有答對一半工作壓力也有可能所以我要今天最主要是要跟院長提醒你要去重視這個問題那部長"},{"start":422.762,"end":443.799,"text":"特別要對這個事情要去預防甚過於治療。部長,我要聽聽你對這件事情本席執行這個問題雖是一個小問題但是是一個非常重大現在已經有8個那個家庭是破碎的那個家庭是一個雜亂的"},{"start":445.981,"end":470.357,"text":"我要傾聽部長,你針對這個要不要重視?我想您的觀察非常的正確,因為你本來就是非常關心警消的權益。在我上任之後,還有包括我們張榮興署長上任之後,真的是取消不必要的評比,減輕他們在工作上面不必要的壓力。我們都知道社會變遷確實造成很多多元的不同的壓力的來源,我想每一個行業都會有。"},{"start":470.657,"end":473.298,"text":"我希望他們去找大醫院的這些身心健康的科的這個醫師呢﹖可以用助診的方式﹖可以用協助的方式﹖而且去散步在"},{"start":497.765,"end":498.285,"text":"你發現到這個問題我要拜託院長"},{"start":527.642,"end":538.144,"text":"真的你要支持內政部真的一定要去支持為什麼根據這些資料根據這些資料也就說全國防止"},{"start":539.269,"end":559.041,"text":"自殺防止中心他的推估我們雖然是8萬我們6萬多個警察他是有1萬個人是需要心理輔導1萬喔所以你變那個以前11年的時候變80萬12年當然有提升現在你說要變300萬500萬不定不夠的"},{"start":563.544,"end":586.405,"text":"因為有一萬多個一萬多個我們可以去看一看國外的警察他雖然他的業務繁重但是他是有業餘輔導時間喔所以這個就跟心靈有關係所以我要拜託在這個部分院長你要把他當成不要以為嚴謹一個字自強"},{"start":587.466,"end":612.777,"text":"是一個小事,錯!真的是一個大事!那更何況為什麼我會提出這個執行最主要的原因是因為警察在這裡都沒有人替他發聲所以我要拜託院長在這個部分一萬多個需要去執行現在變成我們都沒有專業的人員你要用局長、用隊長、用長官去做這些輔導"},{"start":613.717,"end":613.897,"text":"律師律師"},{"start":634.558,"end":663.058,"text":"我提出這個問題都沒有政治性的問題是你們自己的警察的這些人命關天的問題也讓警察覺得是在這個警察家庭裡面他是第一個雖然出勤但是他是受保障他是受關懷所以在這個部分部長真的是比較缺乏因為你們兩位也剛上任所以在這個部分長官非常重要如果在這個預算可以多撥一點"},{"start":664.381,"end":679.814,"text":"災害就會少一點所以我看今年尤其今年已經8件了8件了也有新的也有長官也有什麼所以這些東西不要粉飾太平的心態真的要正視這個問題我本席在這裡要建議第一個擴大這個部分的預算第二個輔導要有專業化"},{"start":691.583,"end":712.49,"text":"我不是自己長官啊,他來輔導這個效果不彰化。 那另外就是要做一個長期研究,為什麼會這樣?最後一個就是我們的工作能夠減少就減少。當然也不是說什麼都不做,最起碼的話不必要的評比能減就減。"},{"start":713.53,"end":733.267,"text":"我相信現在的張署長他也很願意去聽這些事所以在這裡本席特別拜託院長多支持內政部拜託部長你要多關心我們這個全國的警察這個部分好不好報告委員剛剛部長講的那個我們擴大預算或增加諮詢機構的事情我會請部長"},{"start":736.468,"end":750.478,"text":"請署長、各縣市的局長、分局長一直落職到基層下去,一定要完全來注意到這個事情。 是啦,鄉議員長你現在就很好啊,到拍手去慰問慰問,這個會鼓舞士氣啊,這個做法是對的。"},{"start":751.218,"end":752.018,"text":"另外一個﹖"},{"start":780.129,"end":800.714,"text":"我利用這個小小的時間特別來跟部長研究臺北市中山區大灣北段這個案子。 其實這個案子我要替這些住民跟院長投訴跟部長投訴。"},{"start":802.334,"end":820.229,"text":"這個不要變成這個歷史的工業啦。 其實這是過去的政府他們的規劃不當而造成老百姓繼承事實的歷史工業。 所以在這個部分有沒有可能據我了解"},{"start":821.03,"end":849.444,"text":"好,你說過去是柯文哲想要做,現在蔣萬安主要做,但是我們不要有政黨色彩嘛,我跟你講老百姓也是你卓院長的子民啊,所以在這個部分有沒有好好的拜託部長拜託院長不要有政治思考,能不能在這個部分,因為善意的第三者是大灣北段的祝福。"},{"start":850.128,"end":867.87,"text":"他要接受滑單他要接受這些折磨所以院長能不能在你的任內請我們劉部長在這個部分也就是我們內政部的國土署在審這個預算的時候不要有顏色只要問題來解決"},{"start":869.292,"end":886.144,"text":"我也建議真的能夠中央跟地方把這個問題解決是老百姓受益所以這個部分部長我相信你也剛來但是沒有人送案子退案子已經將近四年"},{"start":886.844,"end":912.654,"text":"這是對臺北市大灣北段大直地區有1800多戶的這些住戶非常不公平非常不公平是前任政府的錯誤來解決問題應該是在卓內閣卓院長的領導之下把這個問題來解決那至於法令哪邊要怎麼做中央政府跟地方政府要好好商討把這個問題解決掉因為為什麼"},{"start":915.735,"end":919.236,"text":"．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":964.694,"end":965.635,"text":"好,謝謝林委員"}]}},{"id":"154169","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154169","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb76e1b926d9cdcffe4c867c7a3ae89c54664f2be01c033e41230bd05d888952235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"10:23:48 - 10:40:17","影片長度":"00:16:29","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T10:23:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T10:40:17+08:00","duration":989,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":213,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好，很高興在這邊見到您。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我要先跟您說聲感謝，因為在您擔任黨主席時徵召我參選立委，讓我今天得以有機會站在這個地方，在此跟您說聲感謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是我們借重原住民族朋友們對您的敬重，發揮您的長才、為國家服務，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我會繼續努力。我要跟院長說明一下，我先自我介紹，我的族名叫做Saidhai Tahovecahe，目前我是被編定在魯凱族，我先是臺灣原住民，再來是中華民國的國民，我愛我的族人，我熱愛這片土地，我愛我的國家，為了原住民族的權益，為了國家的權益，我會捍衛到底。請教一下院長，您認為我是不是台獨分子？"],["卓院長榮泰：你是熱愛中華民國臺灣的國家的主人。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們知道中國在21日召開了一個懲戒台獨的記者會，如果依照這個定義，我們大概有八成五的國人都會落入台獨分子，而且有可能入罪、而且心生恐懼，請教一下院長，您的態度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：先請主委答一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：伍委員您好，謝謝您。中國大陸推出這22條的意見，我想只要不是中共所定義的統一的話，都可能被列為台獨，所以應該是超過你剛剛所說的八成人數。不過，我們要強調，北京當局對我國並沒有任何的司法管轄權，它的法律，它的規範，包括它這22條的意見，對於我們國人都沒有任何的拘束力。我們要特別強調，政府會全力來捍衛我們國人的安全與權利，請大家不要擔心。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們的心並無二致，我們一起努力。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這個事情我的態度是這樣子的，政府有責任保護所有國民的安全，所以在中華民國境內，我們所有的國人當然會受到政府最好的保障。而我們國人也會外出啊！我希望拿中華民國護照的所有國人，去到每一個國家，既然這本護照能夠在當地國自由的進出，就應該得到當地國政府全力的保護中華民國國民、持有這個護照的國民的人身安全。第三，如果我們要到中國大陸去旅遊，去做各種訪問或者工商的往來，確實你要先注意到自己的安全能不能在你有效的管控底下，否則政府透過陸委會、透過海基會能夠做的，現在對方的態度是消極的，所以我很希望國人能夠慎重的考慮、慎重的考慮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝院長。我此生還沒有踏入過中國的國土啦！","我在這裡其實是要提到我們跟土地的關係，原住民族跟土地的關係，就跟母親的臍帶一樣，真的是密不可分，很多人很難理解原住民對土地的感情，像我們很著名的印第安酋長西雅圖他的那一篇宣言，非常的感人，他們跟土地就像家人一樣的感情；我們排灣族也會說，土地不會拒絕任何一顆種子；泰雅族也會說土地是血、山林是家，所以很多人很難瞭解原住民跟土地的感情跟關係，特別是昨天下午，總統賴清德他公布了這一次引起原住民族高度重視的禁伐補償條例的修正。院長，是不是這代表著明年1月1號開始，我們就可以適用新的辦法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛我有答復過，我再跟委員報告一次，我覺得禁伐補償的金額，從3萬調整到6萬，整個經費從26億調到52億，這個占據原住民族今年度跟明年度概算的40%……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：您會不會支持？是不是明年就會開始？明年會不會適用這個新辦法？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個單一政策實使用一個部會預算的40%，這個在過去是少見的，現在傷腦筋的是，如何用其他的再扣掉法定支出之外的，剩下十幾%的百分比，能夠照顧到所有原住民該做的事情，這是現在傷腦筋的。所以我要請原民會曾主委，也一定要深入去看看如何處理這個事情，但是政府的預算、整個中央政府總預算的額度是相當有限的，就是在這個額度裡面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們族人要聽的是確保總統公告明年的1月1號起，我們是不是可以確保這個新制上路？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是依法行政必須要做的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，那就是依法行政，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政措施怎麼來處理，我們會研究出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，一定是合法的，依法行政的，謝謝院長。其實我會這樣講的原因還有一個，您看一下這則新聞。這是幾年前臺東縣議會所爆發的激辯，有一位議員直接提案刪除原民會撥補給原民處2,200萬元禁伐補償金的追加預算，他的理由是什麼呢？他說漢人承租國有地幾十年也拿不到所有權，原住民在保留地租5年就可以取得。事實是什麼呢？幾十年來，原住民的土地沒有所有權，只有他項權利，但因為政府制度的改變，讓我們在5年之後就可以被承認權利。也有人說，他說為什麼原住民考試可以加分？事實是什麼？外交官的孩子也可以加分，僑生也可以加分，科技人才子女也可以加分，軍人和身心障礙者都可以加分。在這個地方我要特別提到，在聯合國原住民族權利宣言、在我們的原基法中，政府承認原住民族的土地跟自然資源。我們原本可以根據這些政府承認的原住民固有主權，包括狩獵、水源、溫泉、能源等等來發展我們的社會組織、文化、經濟。但國家點滴式的福利餵養，有意無意的擴大了社會的對立跟衝突。在這邊我要特別跟院長說，其實我們始終都很清楚，原住民自治和原住民族教育是我們擺脫國家社會福利補助污名的唯一途徑。我很高興您在5月31日來這地方做施政報告，您提到政府將落實原基法，俾利原住民族自治推動；您也提到政府將逐步發展雙軌制的原住民族教育體系。我們來看一段影片，因為您這段話跟我們賴總統的政見一模一樣。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：2002年前總統陳水扁正式在國家文件上簽署了與原住民的新夥伴關係協定；2005年我們有了原基法；2016年前總統蔡英文代表國家跟原住民道歉；2024年我們的賴總統宣布，要推動原住民族由下而上的自治，這個單位叫做部落公法人。我要跟院長說明，原基法有這樣的法源、法條，部落要設置部落會議，部落經原民會主管機關核定為公法人。但是院長您知道嗎？目前我們的部落會議具有法律效力，不過原民會核定、認可的740個部落卻沒有公法人地位！我要跟院長說明，推動部落公法人是原住民自治很重要的基礎。先不要談自治，因為沒有公法人，我們不能談自治。","我要跟您說明為什麼要推動部落公法人？第一，以亞泥利益分享回饋金來講，到底要存在哪裡？由於沒有部落公法人，只好找一個協會，存在協會裡；蘭嶼的核廢料補償金有這麼多錢，到底要存在哪裡？沒有部落公法人，只好設立一個基金會存起來。但是這些協會、這些基金會，甚至是合作社、公司，難道可以代表部落全體嗎？當林業署在推動狩獵自主管理時到底要跟誰簽？為此，我們還得成立一個獵人協會，然後由理事長來簽。有很多法令，如礦業法、水利法、再生能源條例等等，都說要跟部落進行諮商，但那些利益分享，到底我們要跟誰簽？真正要簽的是部落會議主席，但我們跟理事長簽、跟鄉長簽、跟很多人簽，就是部落主席不能簽，因為他沒有法律地位！部落辦的這些公共事務，像文健站、互助教保中心，我們只好成立一個協會來承辦；我們的部落公共事業有溫泉、有地熱，很多人要跟我們合作開發，而我們只能找一個合作公司來合作開發，甚至這些不能代表部落的群體會造成部落的分裂。","更重要的是，我們的土地到底要登記給誰？以這16年來講，國產署已經移交給原民會的原保地有4,667公頃，因為沒有部落公法人，部落不能沒有公有土地，造成我們這些新增劃編回來的土地都變成了私有土地，這下子我們的土地零碎化了、私有化了，但是我們的原保條例還沒有出來。我是想要跟院長說，部落要有土地才是自治的基礎，要不然我們沒有辦法推動部落公法人，更不可能推動所謂的部落自治，未來包括我們的永久屋這些土地，如果沒有原保條例處理我們部落遷居所需的土地，我們永遠沒有辦法取得土地。甚至在我們原基法裡面都有傳統智慧創作保護，我們未來也有生物多樣性的知識，像那一些保種計畫，我們都會有權利，我們都會有權利金，甚至是未來的森林碳匯，我們的森林驗證，我們都沒有部落公法人可以處理，我們不知道該怎麼辦，所以我在這邊特別要拜託院長，有部落公法人，我們的部落就會自主的發展成為一個自治實體，未來自治要怎麼走、部落要跟誰自治、它的自治事項是什麼，這個都不用政府煩惱，但是一定要從部落公法人開始。","我這邊有一個短短的影片，這是一個老人家，是一位國民黨的大老，做過校長、鄉長、議員，他在過世的三天前只交付我一個任務，請聽一下。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，這個八十幾歲的老人家，國民黨的大老，他勉勵我只要做到這一項就好，因為我們都很清楚的知道，要擺脫國家福利補助的污名，只能透過我們的自治跟我們的教育，所以我希望院長可以責成原民會在兩個月內提出，第一個是去處理部落公法人設置條例，法律位階，在這個之前呢，希望可以擬定草案，辦理全國分區座談會，更重要的是，如果我們懷疑它有潛在的風險，我希望可以擬定一個3年期的部落公法人沙盒計畫，選定地點來辦理。院長可以嗎？一句話就好。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，很感動剛剛那段影片的那一句話，我終於知道委員在這個工作上是一直會持續下去的。您提到這個議題，我想原民會一定會針對每個部落、民族的政經文化的差異及人口多少的差異，再跟大家積極的溝通。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長。","另外一個是教育的問題，我今天希望能夠得到你的肯認，因為您也說了，政府即將逐步推動雙軌教育，我們的賴總統也在他的政見當中很清楚地說明，我現在要跟您說，其實原教法已經有法源說要做原住民族學校，而且是由中央原住民的主管機關，也就是原民會來規劃原住民族學校的設立事項。其實在2018年召開過公聽會，2022年立法院也曾經排審，但是重點莫衷一是、沒有共識，因為大家根本不知道原住民族學校是什麼，但是我們從聯合國的宣言可以看到，所謂的原住民族學校就是以自己的語言和教學方法來提供教育。我們看到這些年很多人都去紐西蘭看毛利族怎麼做，我們看到了他們有幼兒園的沉浸學校等等，可是我們的國家截至目前都是做半套，我也曾經質詢過很多次要求要試辦，但是到現在都沒有結果。我要講的是，其實有決心有什麼做不到？","我們來看一下教育部113年的預算，編在我們的民族教育跟語言的預算是6.44億，原民會113年編在我們這些語言的預算是7.12億，我們原住民族教育經費，教育部法定預算六十四億多。我想說的是，我們難道沒有辦法做一個原住民族學校嗎？我希望我們的原民會就比照目前在科學園區設立的這些學校，其實很簡單，我也可以來協助，我很希望一樣，我們有一個試辦點，我們就開始來做，因為我們是在跟時間賽跑，我們現在還有老師，學校的老師、正式的教師還有辦法用自己的語言來進行雙語教學，我希望至少我們來做。","主委，您是排灣族，最多最多會講族語的老師，我們來做，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們試著看看，想辦法來做試辦，是不是在來義那邊可以先來試辦看看。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，很好，我相信這個一定是賴總統非常棒的一個政績。院長，希望您一起來支持，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：再請委員指教，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長、謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員Saidhai的質詢，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息15分鐘，休息之後繼續質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時40分）","繼續開會（10時55分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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Tahoveca那我目前是被編定在盧凱族那我先是台灣原住民再來是中華民國的國民我愛我的族人"},{"start":69.059,"end":69.46,"text":"你是熱愛中華民國臺灣的國家的主人。"},{"start":87.654,"end":88.835,"text":"．伍麗華Saidhai Tahoveca"},{"start":113.243,"end":132.398,"text":"委員你好,謝謝您中國大陸推出這22條的意見我想只要不是中共所定義的統一的話都可能被列為台獨所以應該是超過你剛所說的八成的人數不過我們要強調"},{"start":134.278,"end":150.413,"text":"北京當局對我國並沒有任何的司法管轄權﹖他的法律﹖他的規範和包括他的22條的意見﹖對於我們國人都沒有任何的拘束力﹖"},{"start":151.776,"end":169.205,"text":"我們要特別強調我們政府會全力的來捍衛我們國人的安全與權利。請大家不要擔心。我們的心並無二致,我們一起努力。那在這裡呢?"},{"start":169.205,"end":177.33,"text":"這個事情我的態度是這樣政府有責任保護所有國民的安全所以在"},{"start":178.493,"end":203.629,"text":"中華民國境內我們所有的國人當然受到政府最好的保障那我們有國人也會外出我希望拿中華民國護照的所有的國人去到每一個國家既然這本護照能夠在當地國自由的進出就應該得到當地國政府權利的保護中華民國國民持有這個護照的國民的人身安全"},{"start":204.517,"end":216.282,"text":"第三、如果我們要到中國大陸去旅遊﹖去做各種的訪問﹖或者工商的往來﹖確實你要先注意到自己的安全能不能在你有效的管控底下﹖"},{"start":217.148,"end":242.522,"text":"否則政府透過陸委會透過海基會能夠做的現在對方的態度是消極的所以我很希望國人能夠慎重的考慮啊慎重的考慮謝謝院長我此生還沒有踏入過中國的國土那我在這裡呢其實是要提到我們跟土地的關係其實原住民族跟土地的關係就跟母親的期待一樣"},{"start":243.763,"end":250.102,"text":"真的是一個密不可分那很多人很難理解原住民對土地的感情像我們很著名的"},{"start":251.314,"end":280.323,"text":"印第安酋長西雅圖他的那一篇宣言非常的感人他們跟土地就像家人一樣的感情我們排灣族也會說土地不會拒絕任何一顆種子泰雅族也會說土地是血山林是家所以很多人很難了解原住民跟土地的感情跟關係特別是昨天的下午總統賴清德他公布了這一次"},{"start":280.883,"end":293.901,"text":"引起大家原住民族人高度重視的進法補償條例的修正。 院長是不是這代表著明年的1月1號開始我們就可以試用新的辦法?"},{"start":295.96,"end":303.906,"text":"報告委員剛剛我有答覆過我再跟委員報告一次我覺得從進法補償的這個金額從3萬調整到6萬整個額金費從26億調到52億這個佔據原住民族今年度"},{"start":312.192,"end":314.994,"text":"您說會不會支持是不是明年就會開始（伍麗華Said"},{"start":330.196,"end":333.439,"text":"我們族人要聽的是確保總統公告明年的1月1號起我們是不是可以確保這個心智上路"},{"start":360.218,"end":362.679,"text":"這是幾年前在臺東縣議會爆發一個畸變有一位議員呢他直接提案刪除"},{"start":384.625,"end":386.35,"text":"原民會撥補給原民處2200萬元的禁法補償金的追加預算﹖"},{"start":390.987,"end":417.427,"text":"那他的理由是什麼呢?他說漢人曾租國有地幾十年也拿不到所有權,原住民在保留地五年就可以取得。事實是什麼呢?幾十年來,原住民的土地沒有所有權,只有他向權利。因為政府制度的改變,讓我們在五年之後就可以被承認權利。也有人說,他說為什麼原住民考試可以加分?事實是什麼?"},{"start":418.408,"end":433.711,"text":"外交官的孩子也可以加分。 喬森也可以加分。科技人才子女也可以加分。軍人身心障礙者都可以加分。 所以在這個地方我要特別提到在我們的聯合國援助民族的權利宣言在我們的援基法"},{"start":434.191,"end":450.057,"text":"其實政府是承認原住民族的土地跟自然資源。我們原本可以根據這一些政府承認原住民的固有主權,包括我們的狩獵、水源、溫泉、能源等等,來發展我們的社會組織、文化、經濟。"},{"start":451.998,"end":466.375,"text":"但是國家點滴式的福利未養有意無意的擴大了社會的對立跟衝突我特別要在這邊跟院長說其實我們始終都很清楚原住民自治、原住民族的教育"},{"start":466.875,"end":492.933,"text":"是我們擺脫國家社會福利補助無名的唯一途徑。我很高興您在5月31日來這個地方做施政報告。您有提到說政府將落實原基法必立原住民族自治推動。您也有提到政府將逐步發展雙軌制的原住民族教育體系。我們來看一段影片因為您這段話跟我們的賴總統的政見一模一樣。"},{"start":494.002,"end":499.784,"text":"賴清德講到原民自治,強調由下而上推動,首先就是確立部落公法人的法律地位。"},{"start":515.911,"end":531.771,"text":"二零零二年呢我們前總統陳水扁正式的國家文件簽署了與原住民的新夥伴關係協定。二零零五年我們有了原基法。二零一六年前總統蔡英文代表國家跟原住民道歉。"},{"start":533.072,"end":547.683,"text":"2024年我們的賴總統宣布要推動原住民族由下而上的自治這個單位叫做部落公法人我要跟院長說明原基法有這樣的一個法源法條部落要設置部落會議"},{"start":548.704,"end":570.637,"text":"部落經原民會主管機關合定為公法人,但是院長你知道嗎?我們的部落會議目前具有法律效力,但是我們原民會合定認可的這些740個部落卻沒有公法人的地位。我要跟院長說明,推動部落公法人是原住民自治很重要的基礎。"},{"start":571.718,"end":589.815,"text":"先不要談自治沒有公法人我們不能談自治那我要跟您說明為什麼要推動部落公法人第一個以我們的雅尼利益分享回饋金來講到底要存在哪裡沒有部落公法人只好找一個協會存在協會"},{"start":591.196,"end":606.241,"text":"藍宇的核廢料補償金這麼多錢到底要存在哪裡沒有部落公法人只好設立一個基金會存起來但是這些協會這些基金會甚至是合作社公司難道可以代表部落全體嗎"},{"start":607.681,"end":628.111,"text":"當我們的林業署在推動狩獵自主管理﹖我們到底要跟誰簽﹖我們還得成立一個獵人協會﹖然後由理事長來簽﹖我們的很多的法令﹖礦業法、水利法、再生能源條例等等都說要跟部落進行諮商﹖但是我們的那些利益分享到底我們要跟誰簽﹖"},{"start":629.432,"end":655.235,"text":"真正要簽的是部落會議主席但是我們跟理事長簽跟鄉長簽跟很多的人簽就是部落主席不能簽因為他沒有法律地位我們部落辦的這些公共事務像文件站互助教保中心我們只好成立一個協會來承辦我們的部落公共事業有溫泉有地熱很多人要跟我們合作開發我們只能找一個合作公司"},{"start":656.175,"end":665.979,"text":"來合作開發甚至這一些不能代表部落的群體他會造成部落的分裂更重要的是我們的土地到底要登記給誰以這16年來講國產署他已經移交給原民會員保地4667公頃"},{"start":672.742,"end":673.403,"text":"我是想要跟院長說﹖"},{"start":689.682,"end":712.276,"text":"部落要有土地才是自治的基礎,要不然我們沒有辦法推動部落公法人,更不可能推動所謂的部落自治,那未來包括我們的永久屋這些土地,如果沒有這個元寶條例,處理我們部落遷居所需的土地,我們永遠沒有辦法取得土地,甚至是我們原基法裡面,我們都有了傳統智慧創作保護,"},{"start":713.217,"end":732.654,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":732.654,"end":762.654,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":763.534,"end":766.575,"text":"院長 這個八十幾歲的老人家國民黨的大佬"},{"start":788.544,"end":810.911,"text":"他勉勵我只要做到這一項就好因為我們都很清楚知道要擺脫國家福利補助的汙名只能透過我們的自治跟我們的教育所以我希望院長可以責成原名會兩個月內第一個去處理部落公法人的設置條例法律未接那在這個之前希望可以擬定草案"},{"start":811.391,"end":826.22,"text":"﹗﹗﹗"},{"start":826.562,"end":856.026,"text":"報告委員很感動剛剛那段影片的那一句話我終於知道委員在這個工作上是一直會持續下去的您提到這個議題我想原民會一定會針對每個部落民族他的政經文化的差異人口多少的差異再跟大家積極的溝通謝謝院長那另外一個教育的問題我也覺得我今天一定希望能夠得到你的一個肯認因為您也說了政府也即將逐步推動雙軌的教育"},{"start":856.485,"end":883.28,"text":"我們的賴總統也在他的政見當中很清楚的說明那我現在要跟您說其實原教法已經有法源說要做原住民族學校而且是由中央原住民的主管機關也就是原民會來規劃原住民族的學校的設立事項其實在2018年召開過公聽會2022年立法院也曾經排審但是重點末中一事沒有共識因為大家根本不知道原住民族學校是什麼"},{"start":883.78,"end":900.632,"text":"但是我們從聯合國的宣言我們可以看到所謂的原住民族學校就是以自己的語言和教學方法來提供教育我們看到這些年很多人都去紐西蘭去看毛利族怎麼做但是我們看到他們有了幼兒園的曾經學校等等"},{"start":901.112,"end":928.689,"text":"可是我們的國家截至目前都是做半套我也曾經質詢過很多次要求要試辦但是到現在都沒有結果我要講的是其實有決心有什麼做不到我們來看一下教育部113年的預算編載我們的民族教育跟語言6.44億元民會113年編載我們這些語言7.12億我們的原住民族教育經費教育部法定預算64億多"},{"start":930.47,"end":949.525,"text":"我想說的是我們難道沒有辦法做一個原住民族學校嗎?我希望我們的園民會我們就比照像這些科學園區設立的學校其實很簡單我也可以來協助那我很希望說一樣我們有一個示範點我們就開始來做因為我們是在跟時間賽跑"},{"start":950.666,"end":978.633,"text":"我們現在還有老師學校的老師正式的教師還有辦法用自己的語言來進行雙語教學我希望至少我們來做那主委您是臺灣族最多最多會講主語的老師我們來做好不好對很好我相信這個一定是賴總統非常棒的一個政績那院長希望您一起來支持好不好"},{"start":984.232,"end":985.902,"text":"謝謝吳委員Saidhai的質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154168","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154168","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb1eece966f4b15e2f4c867c7a3ae89c54664f2be01c033e410b3b91af4fa2cf135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：非常謝謝，原住民保留地禁伐補償條例昨天我們等了又等，我也打了很多次電話到總統府，終於公布施行，謝謝。好，我們看禁伐補償，在104年12月18號，立法院根據原住民立委的版本，沒有行政院版本，三讀通過，當時就是105年每公頃2萬塊，106年開始每公頃3萬塊。通過之後，鄭文燦擔任桃園市市長的時候，他馬上加碼，他的理由是什麼呢？因為臺灣省政府從民國82年起禁伐補償每公頃就是2萬塊，現在還是2萬塊太少，加碼到4萬塊，比較遺憾的是他擔任副院長之後，卻沒有去推動加碼的修法。我們看原住民族基本法第二十一條，政府或法令限制原住民族利用前項土地及自然資源時，受限制所生之損失，應由該主管機關……該主管機關是誰呢？森林法限制了我們、水土保持法限制了我們的土地，我們只能造林，造林之後又不能砍伐拿去賣，包括區域計畫法、國土保安用地等等。過去一開始的條文是由行政院來編列預算，後來被修正為由原民會編列，事實上應該要依原基法，由各該主管機關來編列預算。","今年爭取禁伐補償的歷程真的是很艱辛，沒想到都還要表決。所有原住民的立委都有提案，而且有兩位民進黨的立委提案，也有很多民進黨的立委連署，像伍麗華的提案，有15位民進黨的立委連署，陳委員的提案有19位民進黨的立委連署；如果加上國民黨、民眾黨、無黨籍，差不多超過90位的立委支持，結果還要表決。表決的結果，原來連署伍委員跟陳委員的立委都投反對票，形同撤案一樣啊！所以這個部分是需要去檢視的。","我們一直在關心的重點，我也一再地跟行政院主計總處包括跟原民會講，114年度如期實施，現在就要開始編列預算，而且要編列額度外的新增預算。院長，這個不是原民會可以決定的，是不是可以在額度外新增預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我現在在思考的是，依照原民會今年的預算、明年的概算，我們用今年的預算跟明年的概算來看，它的規模現在用26億再加26億，就是增加3萬元的補助，用40%來執行單一政策之後，對於將近60萬的所有原住民族朋友，我們有什麼方式來普遍照顧他的權利？目前我認為看起來是相當地困難，以現在預算的規模來看是如此。預算規模能膨脹到多大？這個現在我無法表示，但是單一部會的預算規模，應該就是在它現在概算的額度裡面。依照目前看起來，未來這個部會只在單一政策就用40%的預算，再加上法定支出，只剩下大概百分之十幾的預算用在全體的原住民族身上，這個我現在是很傷腦筋的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，不必傷腦筋啦，就是法律義務，這最簡單，我做30年的公務員，它是法律義務支出。","我剛剛有講原基法第二十一條，它不應該只有原民會來定、來編列，包括農業部，甚至內政部都應該編列。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個前提是，我認為每一個部會都應該廣泛地照顧所有的政策，單一政策用40%的預算，這樣的例子前所未有，真的是很傷腦筋！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個法律不是新訂定的，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是比例的原則要顧及啊！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你要講比例的話，你就要以鄭文燦前副院長當時的比例來看。","卓院長，你的施政方針口頭報告在5月31號提出來了，有說「本院將依憲法法庭判決，儘速完成『原住民身分法』修法」，我要特別跟院長非常審慎且非常嚴肅地來解決這個問題。111年10月28號有作成憲判字第17號判決，依這個憲法判決有兩個途徑，一個途徑就是剛才你的口頭施政方針報告裡面所提的修正原住民身分法；另外一個途徑是另定特別法，這個是我以下必須讓院長瞭解的。原住民族與平埔族群原來就互不隸屬了，從清朝到日本到中華民國政府，從過去的熟番、生番、高砂族，平埔族群，都是這樣不同的法律、不同的管理，我們讓院長審慎地評估，希望能夠參考我的意見。","行政院在106年8月18號就提出了原住民身分法的修正案，就是針對平埔族，特別在原住民身分法修正案，我先跟院長報告，原住民身分法是在陳水扁總統任內第一年三讀通過，我那時候是處長所草擬出來的。行政院106年8月18號的版本增加了平埔原住民，然後明定其民族權利另以法律定之；原住民身分法在106年9月22號送到立法院之後，立法院在106年10月11號、12月20號、12月21號及107年12月24號完成審查。但是從107年12月24號一直到立法院第9屆109年1月31號這一年多的時間，基於絕對多數的民進黨立委在立法院沒有把它列入立法院院會，我們也沒有反對喔，但是沒有讓它三讀通過，為什麼呢？茲事體大、真的是茲事體大！","本席也把這一段、包括前面我講的，在憲法法庭判決之前我也寫了信，每一個大法官我都寄給他們，讓他們瞭解茲事體大，我的判斷啦！沒有人、大法官沒有告訴，這是我的判斷，所以後來他們才會說可以修原住民身分法或者是另訂專法，是有其需要審慎評估之處。因為時間的關係，我所謂的時間是憲法法庭所定的時間──3年，到明年就3年了，所以要請原民會、行政院加速來擬訂，我的建議是平埔族身分法，如果按照整個憲法的判決的條文內容、理由等各方面的話，制定平埔族身分法應該是最恰當的，而且他的權利義務是另以法律定之。院長，可以朝這個方向嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，現在我們承續過去的程序下來，針對原住民身分法請原民會繼續再跟各界做更多的溝通，也希望他具體有一個期限能夠拿出一些溝通之後對於這個修法的方向，目前的進度在這裡；至於已經進行什麼樣的溝通，相信要由原民會來跟委員報告一下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為時間的關係，我的建議就是原民會趕快草擬草案，然後跟各界溝通，現在是6月，希望在今年的10月或11月能夠送到行政院，給行政院一些空間、時間來討論，希望能夠在今年年底以前送到立法院，為什麼呢？因為明年只有半年的時間了，5月底以前必須三讀通過，才能夠符合憲法法庭的時間。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員的指教，我們會照這樣的進度，我們現在也跟專家學者在研究。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，加油！院長在5月31號施政方針口頭報告裡面提到政府也將落實「原住民族基本法」，俾利原住民族自治的推動，書面報告也提到健全原住民族土地法制，維護原住民族土地權益。我要特別跟院長做詳細的說明。中華民國憲法增修條文第十條第十二項規定，國家應依民族意願，保障原住民族之地位及政治參與，並對其教育、文化等很多，我們就講土地，「其辦法另以法律定之」。現在原住民族基本法就是根據憲法增修條文第十條第十二項制定的，於94年2月5號公布施行。","這裡面特別授權給行政院院長，「行政院為審議、協調本法相關事務，應設置推動委員會，由行政院院長召集之。」這是非常重要的一個條文，但是過去沒有善用這個條文，我當常務副主委的時候都有善用這個條文，把案子送給當時的院長去討論、通過，推動我們原住民族基本法應該制定的法律。我就舉個例子，原基法推動會第11次會議，111年8月28號，這個議程在討論什麼？南島民族論壇推動情形報告。只有報告事項，而且跟原基法毫無關係，到底哪些法律還沒有制定應該要好好討論。112年9月13號也一樣，一個報告事項，是長期照顧，這跟原基法有什麼關係？類似像這樣的。","我現在讓院長包括各部會瞭解一下，1722年清朝康熙61年劃設番界，大清律例，是法律喔！清朝的法律大清律例規定，「民越界」指的人民是誰？清朝的人民啊！民越界入生番地視同出盜入關塞，清朝時候的臺灣地圖，從中國大陸看臺灣；牡丹社事件，之前日本為了要攻打牡丹社，他就說生番地是無主之地，生番地不是清朝的土地，他就打了，當然我們原住民族把這些日本人打敗了。","1895年日令第二十六號，日本統治臺灣的時候，第二十六號令怎麼說？「無官方證據及山林原野之地契，視為官有地。」日本敗戰回到日本，有沒有把土地帶回去日本？沒有，還在臺灣，但是臺灣省政府在36年訂了一個臺灣省土地權利清理辦法，其特別規定經前臺灣總督府依據土地調查及林野調查清理之結果收歸公有之土地，概不發還，這是臺灣省政府於1947年（民國36年），臺灣總督府當時收歸官有的土地概不發還，所以就繼續變成國有土地。","臺灣省山地保留地管理辦法，由省政府於民國49年訂的，劃設了山地保留地24萬公頃，76年起，因為省議員、因為立法委員的建議，所以臺灣省政府根據行政規則，到現在還是喔！用一個要點、計畫增劃編原住民保留地，而這個原住民保留地管理辦法後來提升為中央的法規。","中華民國的總統陳水扁總統在民國91年10月19號跟原住民族簽訂了協定，這個協定就是條約，為什麼呢？依照條約締結法的規定，協定就是條約的名稱。當然我們還是回到法律，陳水扁總統的條約應該去落實，原住民族基本法第二十條明定，「政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源權利。」然後原住民族或原住民所有、使用之土地、海域，其回復、取得、處分、計畫、管理及利用等事項，另以法律定之。所以陳水扁總統任內開始，也就是本席擔任副主委的時候，草擬原住民族土地及海域法，本席召開跨部會的會議，開了10次，然後送到行政院，當時的蘇貞昌院長不是交給負責原民會業務的林萬億政委，是交給誰呢？他考量說不要影響到所謂的公共工程，我的判斷啦！交給當時的政務委員、行政院公共工程委員會的吳澤成政務委員，來負責審查原住民族土地及海域法。本席親自去跟他做簡報，簡報完之後，吳澤成政委開了3天3夜，當然每一天都是隔了一個禮拜、隔了一個禮拜，審查作了一個決定，然後送到行政院院會，把原住民族土地及海域法通過送到立法院，很可惜，送到立法院的時候，因為屆期不連續，所以就沒有審議。馬英九總統任內也送了兩次，也都是一樣，時間都是太晚了。蔡總統105年8月1號向原住民族道歉，並且承諾會加快將原住民族自治法、原住民族土地及海域法送請立法院審議，但是這兩個法律8年來都沒有送啊！我們是非常的遺憾。","我要特別跟院長還有各部會說明，從這個資料、面積就可以知道，不要擔心，原住民族很寬宏的，原住民保留地剛剛講24萬公頃，經過增劃編之後，現在是二十六萬多公頃。公有的、維持公有的話，48.66%，仍然維持公有的原住民保留地喔！由各部會去管理的、去使用的，還維持百分之48.66%；私有的、已經給原住民所有權的51.34%。原住民自己用夠了就好了，政府機關要用沒關係，因為要做什麼使用沒關係，所以不要擔心說有了土海法是不是全臺灣就不見了？不會！我講這個數字就是要讓院長跟各部會，尤其是原民會，你好好的說明這個數字、數據，很多傳統領域已經劃設了，也相安無事啊！所以院長，土海法希望能夠以陳水扁總統當時所提出來的、非常審慎所審議的為基礎，你們可以各部會再討論，趕快送吧！送到立法院，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我相信委員也清楚，土海法涉及的層面範圍非常廣泛，所以才會數次在立法院裡面進進出出，但是據我所知……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：8年來沒有進啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：它還沒有真正進入到實質的討論，都是一些程序上的問題，我想原民會應該有一個新的想法，或是在廣蒐各界的意見之後，目前它有沒有更積極的態度，請原民會來報告。"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為要重啟這個，我們還要再徵詢地方政府。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為你剛上任、院長剛上任，我的建議就是以陳水扁總統任內的，第一個，我開了十幾次會議；第二，吳澤成政委召集各部會開了三天三夜，然後送到行政院會所審議出來的，所以以這個做基礎很快地把它提送到行政院，我的建議是這樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，再向委員請教，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：原基法第四條，要實行原住民族自治，陳水扁總統任內92年跟96年提了兩次原住民族自治區法，它是一個程序性的立法，當時原住民的立委是不贊同，因為每一族都要另外制定提出自治法送到立法院，這是違反自治制度的一個立法例，所以就沒有審查了。然後馬英九總統在99年10月8號提了原住民族自治法；103年12月18號又提了一個原住民族自治暫行條例，內政委員會針對馬總統第一次提的召開了三次的審查，很可惜沒有完成三讀。後來104年又提了暫行條例，本席已經開始當立委了，104年已經是第8屆的最後一年，我們經過很多次的協商討論，把它改為原住民族自治推動條例。就我一個老公務員來講，或是考量到整個各縣市的狀況而言，是可以參考我們立法院各黨團所討論的原住民族自治推動條例回去作參考。","本席建議不要再花很多錢，院長，你看一下這個這張表，原民會從105年一直到今年，對原住民族自治的預算花了真的非常非常多錢，總共加起來3,639萬8,000元，結果8年來連送立法院一個草案都沒有。所以這個部分過去已經有經驗了，陳水扁總統時代我還擔任處長的時候，我們草擬草案，各族群、各縣市都討論過了，所以這個部分不要再花那麼多的經費。我的建議就是參考陳水扁總統的草案，馬英九總統時代的草案，加上原住民立法委員在立法院、剛才所講的原住民族自治推動條例，這三個再去做審慎的討論，能夠提出行政院的一個自治法的草案，院長可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個跟剛剛那個有類似的情況，也是在立法院裡面，經過很多次的進進出出了……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這8年來沒有啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，但是這個直接牽涉到現在地方政府很多行政權的權限啊、行政權的劃分啊，還有地方參政權等等，同時我想原住民族朋友的意見也要把它趨於一致，再來，當然國會的生態我們也會注意。這一點我會請主委能夠持續的瞭解原住民族朋友、各個族群對這些法案的一些基本態度、目前進展到什麼程度，我們看看國會裡面大家能不能取得共識，才能來進行。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，我再補充，馬英九時代原住民族自治推動條例的部分，當時孫大川主委參考了姚嘉文前院長的一個建議，類似像國家公園這樣的一個區域，所以不影響到現行的地方自治，也不影響所有的縣，本來我們擔心花蓮縣會不見、臺東縣會不見，但這個就不會，所以我說要好好把它拿出來討論，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：本席會很務實的，請院長放心。最後，有請內政部部長，主委可以回去了。","0403地震的重建，也許是院長太忙，我曾經拿一封信給你……"],["卓院長榮泰：有、有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以一定要往這個方向去進行。關於重建，在院長還沒上任前，行政院所提的方案，重建（購）貸款最高350萬利息補貼，修繕是150萬利息補貼，我要特別提到，現在完全交給內政部，其實我認為是不足以解決這個問題，一定要其他部會協助。","25年前的921，訂了一個重建家園貸款信用保證業務處理要點，這包含銀行的參與以及怎麼樣去處理；所以當時350萬到150萬利息補貼，150萬以下是免息，25年前是這樣，以當時物價指數、利率各方面來看，當初訂了然後修正的都是一樣，都是讓它更好，這是25年前的處理要點。我建議一定要解決這個問題，所以要請院長指派政務委員，召集內政部、財政部，甚至經濟部相關部會好好討論，這樣的話才能夠真正解決，從0403地震重建或是重購這樣的方向好不好？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，整個0403的重建，不僅是我本人擔任小組召集人，我們也會請工程會陳金德主委統合，因為有很多牽涉到相關業務，也有跨部會的，包括內政部等等在內，針對類似問題做最終處理，現在有一部分已經在處理當中。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，因為現在正在……但重建或是重購是後續就會面臨到的問題，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位陳素月委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳素月書面質詢：","案由：本院陳素月委員，針對詐騙案件層出不窮，基層警員受理、偵辦的詐騙案件數量非常多，已造成基層警力沉重的壓力，特向內政部提出質詢。","說明：","台灣近年受詐騙損失的金額，根據刑事局統計，2021年56億，2022年69億，2023年超過88億元，創歷史新高。詐騙氾濫，隨之偵辦案件數增加，現已造成各級法院、檢警調及矯正單位沈重負擔。據基層員警表示，平均派出所一天會有2-4件詐騙報案，受理報案、查案、抓人等所有事情均由第一線基層警力處理，加上原本的固定勤務，如巡邏、指揮交通、路檢、臨檢等，基層員警還需輪班，勤務加重情況下恐力有未逮，有警員接受媒體採訪時表示，「只能上班前提早來，下班後多留一下，不然就休假處理案件，時間必須壓縮再壓縮。」","偵辦一起詐騙案，員警至少需完成以下流程：找被害人做筆錄、蒐集資料、調監視器、找涉嫌人、通知涉嫌人、等銀行資料回傳通報、調金流，若涉及虛擬貨幣，還需調查虛擬貨幣的幣流。","目前詐騙報案有兩種管道，一是派出所受理報案，二是撥打165反詐騙專線，但165專線是以電話與民眾聯絡後，再轉介給員警，民眾仍須至派出所再做筆錄，此時165專線的資料可能需要勘誤、更正，基層警員卻沒有相關權限，無法修改錯誤，反致警員作業程序更複雜、人力及時間成本增加。","爰此，本席建請內政部研議下述措施，讓員警心無旁騖、專心打詐：","一、各分局設置打詐專案小組，若分局規模較大，則設置兩個專案小組；","二、165專線報案資料，應開放各分局打詐專案小組修改資料以節省時間；","三、內政部應協同數位部、金管會、NCC與法務部，建置跨部會的詐騙案件資訊系統，透過AI與科技，民眾報案後無須再接洽其他部會，各部會並能即時分享資訊、掌握最新進度，且節省第一線基層員警的文書作業時間。舉例：當基層員警立案後，銀行帳號資料即由系統通知法務部、金管會，手機門號資料通知NCC，若為第三方支付資料，則通知數位部；若涉Meta、Google、LINE，telegram之方式，則由數位部等相關部會下架該付費廣告；","四、加強基層警力對虛擬貨幣、幣流之專業認識與查緝能力。","五、加速汰換逾齡之鑑識設備，增購足夠數量之新型科技偵察設備，如情資整合分析工具及鑑識筆電、手機解密取證設備等，並應新增科技偵察該項專業加給。"],["主席：下一位請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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形同測案一樣啊。 所以這個部分是需要去檢視的。 重點"},{"start":223.775,"end":250.485,"text":"重點我們一直在關心的就是我也在一再的跟行政院主席總處﹖包括延民會講的就是114年度如期實施而現在就要開始編列預算而且要編列額度外的新增預算。 院長這個不是延民會可以決定的。 院長是不是可以額度外新增預算。"},{"start":252.412,"end":260.412,"text":"報告委員我現在在思考的是依照原民會今年的預算明年的概算他的規模"},{"start":261.803,"end":287.295,"text":"我們用今年的預算跟明年概算來看它的規模現在用26億再加26億就是增加3萬元的補助用40%來執行單一政策之後對於所有將近60萬的原住民族朋友我們有什麼方式來普遍照顧他的權益目前我認為看起來是相當的困難現在預算的規模來看那預算會不會膨脹到多大"},{"start":291.684,"end":319.639,"text":"這個現在我無法來表示但是一個單一個部會的預算規模應該就是在現在概算的這個額定理和額度裡面的所以依照目前看起來未來只用在單一政策用百分之四十一個部會的預算再加上他的法定支出只剩下大概十多趴的預算百分之十幾的預算會用在全體的元族民族身上這個我現在是很傷腦筋的院長不必傷腦筋的"},{"start":320.479,"end":334.929,"text":"就是法律義務,這是最簡單的。 30年國務院法律義務之處。 然後我剛有講了研究法21條﹖他不是應該只有研民會來編列﹖包括農業部﹖"},{"start":337.125,"end":361.837,"text":"甚至內政部都應該要編列。 這一個前提是我認為每一個部會都應該廣泛的照顧所有的政策。 單一政策用40%預算的這樣的例子前所未有真的是很傷腦筋。 這個法律不是新訂的。 但是比例的原則要顧及。 你要比例的話你就要以鄭文燦副院長當時的比例。"},{"start":365.232,"end":386.623,"text":"這個我們卓院長你的施政方針口頭報告在5月31號提出來的一憲法法庭判決競速完成原住民身份法的修法我要特別跟院長做一個非常審慎而且非常嚴肅的來去解決這個問題"},{"start":390.748,"end":416.373,"text":"一百一十一年十月二十八號現判制第十七號他現法判決有兩個途徑一個途徑就是剛才你的口頭施政方針報告裡面所提的修正原住民身份法另外一個途徑是認定特別法這個是必須我以下來跟讓這個院長能夠了解"},{"start":419.963,"end":444.622,"text":"原住民族與平埔族群原來就互不隸屬了從清朝到日本到中華民國政府都是用首藩從過去的首藩、生藩、高砂族這個平埔族群都是這樣不同的法律不同的管理好,我們讓這個院長"},{"start":449.42,"end":475.7,"text":"省省的評估希望能夠參考我的意見。 行政院在106年18月18號就提出了原住民身份法的修正案就是針對平埔族他特別在原住民身份法修正案我先跟院長報告原住民身份法是在陳水扁總統任內"},{"start":477.537,"end":493.59,"text":"（6月21日（6月21日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月21日（6月21日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月21日（6月21日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月21日（6月21日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月21日（6月21日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月21日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月21日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月21日上午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月"},{"start":503.386,"end":515.875,"text":"這個在106年9月22日送到立法院之後,立法院在106年10月11日、12月20日、12月21日、107年12月24日完成審查。 完成審查了。但是呢,從107年12月24日一直到"},{"start":528.988,"end":556.675,"text":"第九屆的立法院109年1月31日一年多的時間基於絕對多數的民進黨立委在立法院沒有把他列入在立法院的院會我們也沒有反對但是沒有讓他三讀通過為什麼呢?知識體大真的是知識體大"},{"start":558.052,"end":584.179,"text":"本席也把這一段包括前面我講的在憲法法庭判決之前我也寫了信每一個大法官我都寄給他們讓他們了解知識體大所以才會有後來我的判斷大法官沒有告訴我我的判斷所以後來他們才會說可以修原住民身份法"},{"start":585.387,"end":611.322,"text":"或者是令定專法。（6月25日（令定專法是有它的一個（6月25日（要去審慎的一個（6月25日（評估的地方。（6月25日（所以因為時間的關係關係（6月25日（我所謂的時間（6月25日（憲法（憲法法庭所定的一個時間3年（6月25日（到明年就3年了（6月25日（所以要請嚴明會（6月25日（要請行政院（6月25日（加速的來擬定（6月25日（"},{"start":613.171,"end":636.716,"text":"我的建議是平埔族身份法,如果按照整個憲法的判決的條文內容各方面,它的理由各方面的話,應該是制定平埔族身份法是最恰當的,而且它的權利義務是另於法律定制。 院長可以朝這個方向嗎?"},{"start":638.588,"end":645.834,"text":"報告委員現在我們在程序過去的程序下來就是針對原住民身份法"},{"start":648.106,"end":675.403,"text":"請原民會繼續再跟各界做更多的溝通那麼也希望他能夠具體的有一個期限能夠拿出一些溝通之後對於這個修法的方向那目前的進度在這裡那至於說已經進行了什麼樣的溝通相信要由原民會來跟委員來報告一下那個這樣齁時間的關係我的建議啦我的建議就是趕快炒你炒 原民會趕快炒你炒案"},{"start":676.394,"end":705.182,"text":"然後跟各界溝通希望在今年現在是6月希望在今年的10月或11月能夠送到行政院讓給行政院一些空間時間來討論然後希望能夠在今年年底以前送到立法院為什麼呢因為明年只有半年的時間了"},{"start":706.939,"end":735.677,"text":"五月底以前必須三讀通過才能夠符合憲法法庭的一個時間。好,謝謝委員的指教,我們會照這樣的進度,我們現在也在跟專家寫者,我們現在在研究。好,加油。好,院長的施政方針口頭報告在5月31日,裡面也提到政府也將落實原住民族基本法,背立原住民族自治的推動。"},{"start":737.473,"end":766.472,"text":"書面報告也提到建全原住民族土地法制（維護原住民族土地權益。（我要特別跟院長做詳細的說明。（中華民國憲法徵修條文第10條第12項（規定國家應依民族意願保障原住民族之地位及政治參與（並對其交易文化很多。（我們就談土地（土地（然後其辦法另於法律定制。（"},{"start":768.218,"end":783.646,"text":"現在原住民族基本法就是根據憲法徵修條文第10條第12項來制定的。94年2月5日公布施行。這裡面特別授權給行政院院長。"},{"start":785.596,"end":814.445,"text":"行政院為審議協調本法相關事務應設置推動委員會由行政院院長召集之這是非常重要的一個條文但是過去沒有善用這個條文我當副主委的時候常務副主委的時候都有善用這個條文把案子送給當時的院長去討論去通過推動我們原住民主基本法"},{"start":815.618,"end":841.413,"text":"自定的法律。．好,這個我就舉例子．嚴紀法推動會第11次會議．111年8月28日．這個議程談什麼．南島民主論壇推動情形報告．只要報告事項．而且跟嚴紀法毫無關係．沒有．到底哪些法律還沒有．還沒有．還沒有自定．為什麼．應該要做好好討論．"},{"start":843.12,"end":871.245,"text":"在112年9月13日也是一樣一個報告事項長期照顧這個跟這個延期法什麼關係類似像這樣的好我現在這個讓院長包括各部會能夠了解一下1722年清朝康熙61年劃赦藩界大清律令法律哦清國的清朝的法律大清律令"},{"start":872.435,"end":899.893,"text":"明月借,人民是誰?清朝的人民。明月借入深藩地,勢同出道入關塞。清朝的時候的臺灣地圖,從中國大陸看臺灣。好,牡丹社事件之前,日本為了要攻打牡丹社,他就說深藩地是無主之地,深藩地不是清朝的土地,他就打了。"},{"start":901.735,"end":902.135,"text":"好,日本敗戰回到日本。"},{"start":931.223,"end":954.76,"text":"有沒有把土地帶回去日本沒有還在臺灣但是呢臺灣省政府在36年定了一個臺灣省土地全力清理辦法特別規定今前臺灣總督府依據土地調查及領域"},{"start":957.543,"end":982.982,"text":"不清理之結果﹖收歸公有之土地蓋不發還。﹖這是臺灣省政府1947年﹖民國上市紀錄﹖這個臺灣總督府當時收歸官有的土地蓋不發還。﹖所以就繼續就變成國有土地了。﹖臺灣省山地保留地省政府定的民國49年﹖化設了"},{"start":987.58,"end":1011.881,"text":"三地保留地24萬公頃。（7、6年起（因為沈議員（因為立法委員的建議（所以臺灣省政府根據行政規則（到現在還是用一個要點計畫（增化編原住民保留地（然後這個原住民保留地管理辦法（後來提升為中央的法規（"},{"start":1014.278,"end":1041.783,"text":"原住民族中華民國的總統陳水扁總統在民國91年10月19號跟原住民族簽訂了協定這個協定就是條約為什麼呢依照條約締結法的規定條約協定就是條約的名稱當然我們還是回到法律我們這個"},{"start":1044.122,"end":1072.431,"text":"陳水扁總統的條約應該去落實。﹐原住民族基本法20條明定。﹐政府承認原住民族土地及自然資源的權利。﹐原住民族或原住民所有使用之土地、海域﹐其回覆、其得處分、計劃、管理及利用等事項,另以法律定之。﹐所以陳水扁總統任內開始"},{"start":1074.707,"end":1093.395,"text":"也就是本席擔任副主委的時候,朝你研究民主土地及海域法。本席召開跨部會的會議,開了10次,10次。 然後送到行政院。 我們當時的蘇貞昌院長不是交給負責"},{"start":1095.925,"end":1123.875,"text":"嚴明會業務的林旺毅政委是交給誰呢?他考量說不要影響到公共政策公共所謂的公共工程我的判斷交給當時的政務委員行政院公共工程委員會的吳哲成政務委員來負責這個審議這個審查這個原住民族土地及海域法本席親自"},{"start":1124.713,"end":1152.592,"text":"去跟他做檢報。 檢報完之後,我們吳哲成政委開了三天三夜。 當然每一天都是隔了一個禮拜,隔了一個禮拜。 然後審查做了一個決定。 早上送到院會,把原住民族土地及海域法 行政院院會通過送到立法院。 很可惜送到立法院的時候已經借期不聯繫了。"},{"start":1153.905,"end":1181.726,"text":"所以就沒有審議。然後馬英九總統任內也送了兩次也都是一樣時間都是太晚了好蔡總統這個105年8月1號向原住民族道歉並且承諾會加快將原住民族自治法及原住民族土地夾黑法送請立法院審議但是這兩個法例這八年來都沒有送我們是非常的遺憾"},{"start":1182.845,"end":1201.378,"text":"我要特別跟院長還有各部會來報告說明我們從這個資料面積就可以知道不要擔心,原住民族很寬宏的原住民保留地剛剛講24萬公頃經過增化編之後現在是26萬多公頃維持公有的"},{"start":1214.132,"end":1230.356,"text":"48.66%仍然維持公有的原住民保育地,還是各部會去管理的、去使用的,還維持48.66%,施有的已經給原住民所有錢的51.34%,原住民"},{"start":1236.107,"end":1261.056,"text":"原住民我自己用夠了就好了。 你政府機關你要用沒關係。 因為要做什麼使用沒關係。 所以不要擔心有了土海法是不是全台灣就不見了。 不會。 我要講這個數字就要讓院長跟各部會尤其是人民會 你好好地說明這個數字數據很多。"},{"start":1265.407,"end":1284.64,"text":"傳統文明已經化身了也身安無事啊。．所以讓院長這個讀法案法希望能夠以陳水扁總統當時所提出來的非常審慎所審議的為基礎。．你們可不可以再討論趕快送到立法院可以嗎?．"},{"start":1292.748,"end":1320.691,"text":"報告委員,我相信委員也清楚,這個土愛法涉及的層面範圍非常的廣泛,所以才會數次在立法院裡面進進出出。但是據我所知,他還沒有真正進入到實質的討論,都是一個程序上的問題。那我想,園民會應該有一個新的想法,或是在廣收各界的意見之後,目前他有沒有更積極的態度,請園民會來報告。"},{"start":1323.697,"end":1352.206,"text":"因為這個跟我們還是要重啟這個﹖我們還要再徵刑我們的這個地方政府。﹖因為剛上任,院長剛上任﹖我的建議就是說以陳水扁總統任內﹖第一個我開了十幾次會議﹖第二吳哲成政委開了三天三夜,早起各部會喔﹖然後送到行政院會所審議出來的﹖所以"},{"start":1352.711,"end":1380.541,"text":"以這個做基礎．在很快的把它提送到行政院。．我的建議是這樣。．好,在下委員請教,謝謝。．好,研究法第4條．要實行原住民族自治。．好,陳水扁總統任內．這個提了92年跟96年．提了兩次原住民族自治7法．它是一個程式性的一個立法．當時．"},{"start":1382.899,"end":1389.649,"text":"這個原住民的立委是不贊同因為他每一個每一組都要另外制定提出"},{"start":1390.31,"end":1415.42,"text":"自治法送到立法院,這是違反自治制度的一個立法例,所以就沒有通過,沒有審查了。（6月21日（9月29日（10月8日提了研究民主自治法（103年12月18日又提了一個研究民主自治暫行條例。（內政委員會針對馬總統"},{"start":1419.841,"end":1429.451,"text":"第一次提的,召開了三次的一個審查,很可惜沒有完成三讀。 然後後來104年又提了這個暫省條例,"},{"start":1434.816,"end":1453.995,"text":"本席已經開始當立委了一百零四年已經最後一八屆的最後一年最後一年我們經過很多次的協商討論把它改為原住民主自治推動條例就我一個老公務員來講或是考量到整個各縣市的狀況而言"},{"start":1456.457,"end":1483.477,"text":"是可以參考這個我們立法院各黨團所討論的這個原住民自治制推動條例這個回去去參考本席的建議不要再花很多錢那個院長你看一下這個這張表嚴明會從105年對原住民自治制的預算"},{"start":1485.117,"end":1512.311,"text":"一直到今年花了真的是非常非常多錢總共加起來3639萬8千結果這8年連送立法院一個草案都沒有所以這個部分真的是已經過去有經驗了本席當任這個陳水扁總統我還是處長的時候我們草擬草案"},{"start":1514.127,"end":1540.178,"text":"各族群各縣市都討論過所以這個部分不要再花那麼多的一個經費這個我的建議就是說就是參考這個陳水扁總統的草案馬英九總統時代的草案"},{"start":1541.533,"end":1562.987,"text":"加上原住民立法委員．在立法院所．剛才所講的這個．原住民組自治推動條例．這三個．來去．在座審慎的去討論．能夠提出行政院的一個自治法的草案。 院長可以嗎?"},{"start":1564.995,"end":1585.091,"text":"報告委員,這個剛剛那個有類似的情況也是在立法院裡面經過很多次的進進出出。﹖這半年來沒有了。﹖對,但是因為這個直接牽涉到現在地方政府很多行政權的權限、行政權的劃分還有這個地方參政權等等。"},{"start":1585.691,"end":1585.791,"text":"我再補充"},{"start":1611.195,"end":1636.126,"text":"這個原住民族自治推動條例馬英九時代這個部分當時孫大川主委參考了姚家文前院長的一個建議類似像國家公園這樣一個區域所以不影響到現行的地方自治"},{"start":1636.977,"end":1637.197,"text":"部長請退席"},{"start":1666.178,"end":1688.909,"text":"零四零三地震的重建,這個我曾﹖ 院長也許太忙,我曾經拿一封信給你,所以這個是一定要往這方向去進行,重建,你們這個當然院長還沒有上任之前, 行政院所提的一個方案,"},{"start":1690.553,"end":1714.158,"text":"重建、重構貸款最高350萬這個利息補貼。 修繕是150萬利息補貼。 我要特別提到當然現在完全交給內政部其實是我認為是有是不足以解決這個問題。 一定要其他的部會來協助。 92125年前92125年前他訂了一個"},{"start":1720.769,"end":1732.775,"text":"重建家園貸款信用保證業務處理要點。（6月25日（所以這個就會包含銀行的參與怎麼樣去處理。（6月25日（所以當時350萬到150萬利息補貼。（6月25日（150萬以下是免息。（6月25日（"},{"start":1745.595,"end":1772.797,"text":"二十五年前是這樣以當時的物價指數利率各方面所以現在的情況我們看這個當初就訂了然後後來修正都是一樣都是會讓他更好都是二十五年前的一個相關的這些處理要點所以我的建議一定要去解決這個問題所以要請院長"},{"start":1775.475,"end":1801.21,"text":"能夠指派政務委員、召集內政部﹑財政部﹑甚至經濟部相關的部會來去好好地討論﹑這樣的話才會能夠真正解決零四、零三地震重建或是重構這樣的一個方向好不好﹖可以嗎﹖"},{"start":1802.724,"end":1828.891,"text":"報告委員整個0403的重建不僅是我本人來擔任這個小組的召集人我們會請工程會曾經的主委能統合因為很多牽涉他相關的業務也有跨部會的那八萬內政部等等都會在你針對這些類似的問題做一個最終的處理那現在已經有部分已經在處理當中了我知道因為現在這個正在那個嘛但是要重建或是要重構"},{"start":1830.086,"end":1830.486,"text":"好,謝謝政委員"}]}},{"id":"154167","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154167","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb5a0736cc950619a84c867c7a3ae89c54cd9747a858392c9cc5a332098edd992b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:36:48 - 09:52:43","影片長度":"00:15:55","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T09:36:48+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T09:52:43+08:00","duration":955,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":91,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（9時36分）主席，有請院長跟原民會主委。"],["主席：請卓院長及原民會主委備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：院長好，主委好。莫拉克到現在即將邁入第15年，今天我們大概就是針對莫拉科風災後的一些問題來質詢新任的行政院長。就莫拉克來說，院長，你的印象是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是一場突如其來非常大的颱風，造成地區非常……"],["盧委員縣一：我希望你是說它造成681人死亡、62億美金的損失，我希望這兩點請牢牢記得。「莫拉克」在語意上是什麼意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起。"],["盧委員縣一：主委知道嗎？莫拉克這三個字的意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：莫拉克這三個字……"],["盧委員縣一：莫拉克這三個字是泰國話的綠寶石，因為它造成這麼大的損害以後被永久除名，也就是以後再也沒有颱風會以莫拉克命名。好，簡單地回顧以後，我們來看現在莫拉克災後重建的這個條例，大概在2009年到103年，一共5年的時間，它廢止了，廢止到現在已經將近10年的時間，我們看它現在的一些檢討方案，監察院在兩年前曾經提出檢討報告，是非常厚的報告，不曉得行政院後來有沒有收到這份報告？我相信一定有，因為你是新任，所以我給你這一份新的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，這份我們有，謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：這麼厚的一份檢討報告，我不知道相關單位有沒有詳實地去看、去檢討。以我的瞭解，當時的永久屋大概是3,583戶，原住民地區的受災戶如果以撤離原來的地方是2,379戶，也就是占這三千多戶的85%。當時重建的順序是離災不離村、離村不離鄉，第三個才是集體遷村到離鄉最近的疏散地點，不過絕大多數設置的地方都是在第三個，也就是大概都已經離開他原本生活的範圍。在集體遷村的時候造成很多我們現在可以看到的一些現象，比如說沒有辦法跟當地的文化或者他原來的一些情感連結，造成現在你如果到屏東會看到很多亂象在那邊，我相信主委知道，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我最主要要講的就是說，現在它那個品質一一浮現，因為當時在建造的時候，大概只用了100天左右的時間來完成這些所謂的永久屋，所以它沒有保固的問題，如果以後有那麼強的風災發生的時候……如果還有永久屋的需求的話，保固應該列為他們以後建造類似房子的時候一個非常重要的選項，因為當時沒有重視這個，以臺東的大武來看，你看它每一個房子幾乎都有呈現大小不一非常嚴重的問題，而且是沒有人可以幫他們解決，因為它是永久屋嘛！已經給你保管，所以你等於是要自己自費去處理，鄉公所也沒有這樣的經費去幫忙他們，比如說排水溝的問題、屋內漏水的問題，諸如此類品質不良的問題。","還有比較重要就是三方契約，當時的三方契約就是受災戶、慈善團體跟縣市政府辦的三方契約，不過這個三方契約非常嚴苛，不得處分、不得出租，也不得設定負擔，不得再回原居住地居住或建造房屋，這個三方契約如果不檢討的話，衍生的問題會越來越多。接下來我們再看下一個問題，三方契約當然是一個美意，不過現在我們看到了世代傳承、人口繁衍、生活發展，包括它的墓地這些都沒有在當時的考量範圍裡面，然後他當時必須在3個月之內離開他原來居住的地方，不得再回原居地。然後還有一個我認為最重要的就是他的土地是地方政府管有，你看一下我們位在原保地的有這些區域，比如說山美、嘉蘭這些，還有我們牡丹，在傳統領域的有來吉的、杉林的、禮納里的這些，我相信主委大概都瞭解。我們希望這個永久屋的土地所有權取得的問題能夠聽當地民眾的真實需求，評估永久屋取得土地所有權的適法性或者是研究其他可行的方案，不然他們在那裡到底是算什麼呢？又不得回原居地，這個土地又不是他的，又不能去承租或者是說……很多限制就對了，好不好？這麼多年了，已經第15年，我相信我們應該好好處理這個問題。監察院已經處理我們災後人權促進會的問題，報告也已經出刊了2年，可是到現在還是沒有相關的配套措施來回應監察院的問題，不是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我是不是可以跟委員回應一下？"],["盧委員縣一：OK，主委請說。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，會有永久屋是當時他在平地蓋永久屋，他原來的土地、原來的房子還是他的，就是說這邊永久屋也有他的房子跟土地，原來的房屋讓它休養生息幾年、幾十年之後，他還是可以回去耕作，回去做一個他自己簡易的住的地方都可以，但是在颱風來的時候，你必須要回到你原來的這個……"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，我想要解決的問題就是土地所有權的問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，三方契約的話我們還可以再來談，因為這個房子雖然不是我們族人的，可是他有永久的使用權，其實跟所有權是沒有兩樣的。當然族人希望他取得所有權，因為是三方契約，我們還要跟族人再繼續溝通，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：OK，我對院長提出一個建議，因為它是跨7個縣市，能不能在最短的時間之內在行政院設立專案辦公室？因為總統也因為執政的關係，他要新設立3個委員會，既然可以成立3個新的委員會，針對這三千多戶，我們能不能在行政院設一個專案辦公室來統合、整理、解決他們現在的問題，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，行政院吳澤成前政委已經就永久屋政策主持過專案小組，也開過歷次會議，做了一些重大的決定，譬如為了保障這個土地的永久使用，它不能被列為法拍的一個標的物，所以不能透過這個行為改變，而且……"],["盧委員縣一：目前遇到的所有問題，誰可以解決？比如剛才說排水溝的問題、內部設計不良的問題，還有飲用水，還有殯葬用地這些，如果大家全部都集中在縣市政府，我相信他們沒有辦法解決，一定要中央層級來處理這樣的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，內政部歷年來也發布過莫拉克颱風災後民間興建贈與住宅修繕補助作業要點，每戶補助10萬元，在112年、113年兩年已經補助地方政府637件，這個有沒有實際上幫助到居住在永久屋裡面的原住民族朋友、莫拉克風災的受災戶？如果還做不到，我們還要再做更多，我想都可以拿出來討論。"],["盧委員縣一：實在是不希望人權促進會到最後又跑到監察院、跑到行政院、跑到哪裡去舉白布條抗議，沒有人去處理他們的問題。如果有一個專案辦公室時時刻刻解決他們的問題，是不是你們就可以預防一些人權團體不時就要來爆發？甚至在屏東有發生過自焚事件。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，剛剛我說過吳澤成前政委所主持的永久屋政策專案小組，我們再回去看看最後開會的結論以及進行的方式如何，我們有必要繼續下去就繼續做這個工作，好不好？如果它已經到了一個階段，我們就讓內政部來協助。"],["盧委員縣一：一定有必要。我還會持續追這個問題，好嗎？主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：針對我們原住民禁伐補償，謝謝昨天已經公布法律了，我有看到公告，本席想要確認的是，它會壓縮到我們原有的預算嗎？還是行政院這邊要籌編預算？我只想知道這個答案。"],["卓院長榮泰：請主委先回答一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，有關禁伐補償，現在已經公布了，我們現在也在做概算的籌編，當然我們是希望跟農業部再協調，看怎麼樣在森林保育底下還有……所有的保留地、林地，有很多是跟我們農業部重疊的。我們想提報一個中長程計畫，希望多出來的每公頃3萬塊能不能也在這裡面來處理。我們會循程序來提報，當然我們也希望院裡面會給予我們協助。"],["盧委員縣一：因為公告是明年要實施，明年實施沒有問題，也不會打折扣、也沒有但書、也沒有附加條件，這是大家比較關心的問題。有沒有什麼但書、附加條件，然後又說要延後或是怎麼樣？你可以保證明年就可以實施嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前是沒有延後，我們會窮盡一切的辦法，為了照顧我們的族人……"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會提出一個辦法，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝你，這是我個人在選舉期間最重要的政見。","針對我們原住民文化行政人才的養成，我一再地說明，目前原住民各地區的民族文物館很多，大概有156名臨時人員，我們重視原住民文化，我們認為原住民文化是世界的瑰寶，也是我們臺灣堪稱在世界上引以為傲的一個產業，可是相關的人才培訓確實是沒有，而且我們剛剛看到都不是公務員，如果政府可以把它當作是一個很重要的類科，能不能由人事行政總處增設，在原住民特考裡面開立文化行政職系的員額？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個跟委員報告，我們會要求縣，尤其是有地方文化館的縣，因為本來我們就在輔導他們做地方文化館轉譯人才的工作，希望他們在原住民特考是不是提報相關的……"],["盧委員縣一：我們一直都在說要增加文化敏感度，看到什麼人就應該知道要說什麼樣的話，可是你都沒有重視的話，永遠都不可能實現啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：所以應該要把這個類科加進去，不然以後我們的原住民博物館怎麼辦？如果都沒有正式受專業訓練的一些文化人才，誰去管理民族博物館，還是一般行政的人去嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會請縣鄉在考試的時候提報，把文化切出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，現行的原住民族特考裡面，我們已經有文化行政這個類科。"],["盧委員縣一：對，只考過一次，只有一個人，那個人已經過世了。"],["卓院長榮泰：人數比較少，但是已經有開辦這樣類科的考試，我想將來還是維持。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，可是不能……希望能夠持續進行。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也希望他們到各地方去，希望優秀的、有志於此的、能夠投入文化工作的人，能經過這樣的考試成為一個專業的人才，為國家來服務。這個共同來努力。"],["盧委員縣一：對，它不僅僅是一個文化的載體，比如說醫療環境，以後我們在行車上面、在動線上面，都有一些文化的指引。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["盧委員縣一：才會展現臺灣的獨特性啊！要不然永遠都是一樣的中正路、中山路，你覺得這個對我們原住民夠尊重嗎？對不對？應該是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起來鼓勵更多的年輕朋友來投入這個考試。"],["盧委員縣一：就是因為沒有這方面相關的人才、專業人才去督促政府要做哪一方面的改變，不然永遠都一樣。","最後再把握一分鐘的時間，國土計畫我比較重視三個問題，第一個問題就是泰雅族普遍的聚落問題。現在的聚落是定義為3戶，我希望針對泰雅族的部分不要以3戶為聚落。當然整體來說，3戶是可以達成，可是就泛泰雅族群來說，因為他散居的獨特性，沒有辦法3戶變成一個聚落，這可以調整，針對泛泰雅族群的。第二個，未辦理保存登記的建物如何取得建照、使用執照？第三個，針對原住民受理合法住宅使用不應該設落日條款，我記得每次在國土計畫法的一些說明會的時候，好像都有落日條款。"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告一下，您剛所說的聚落的定義，一戶叫作聚落真的是很奇怪，所以我們希望可以從這個地方再重新……你剛剛講到落日條款的部分，其實可以再自行舉證重新申請。你第二項所舉的部分，我再跟你解釋一下……"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-1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主委知道嗎?莫拉克這三個字的意思。 莫拉克這三個字是泰國化的綠寶石。那因為它造成這麼大的損害以後,它被永久除名,也就是說以後再也沒有颱風會以莫拉克來命名。"},{"start":87.793,"end":109.262,"text":"好我們就簡單的回顧以後呢我們來看現在的莫拉克的災後重建的這個條例大概在2009年然後到103年一共5年的時間他廢止了那現在廢止的到現在已經將近10年的時間那我們看他現在的一些檢討方案"},{"start":111.107,"end":123.118,"text":"我們的監察院在兩年前曾經提出檢討報告,非常厚的報告,不曉得行政院後來有沒有收到這份報告,我相信一定有。那我這邊,因為你是新任,所以我給你這一份新的。"},{"start":142.776,"end":147.562,"text":"這麼厚的一個檢討報告我不知道相關單位有沒有想死的去看"},{"start":148.186,"end":148.206,"text":"﹚盧縣一﹚"},{"start":178.326,"end":185.307,"text":"不過絕大多數的設置的地方都是在第三個也就是說大概都已經都離開他原本生活的範圍"},{"start":186.653,"end":208.403,"text":"那集體遷村的時候會造成很多我們現在可以看到的一些現象比如說他跟沒有辦法跟當地的文化或者是他原來的一些情感這些糾葛非常的造成現在你如果你到屏東會看到很多亂象在那邊我相信主委知道對不對對好"},{"start":209.663,"end":237.726,"text":"那我最主要要講的就是說現在他那個品質就一一浮現因為當時在建造的時候他大概只用100天左右的時間來完成這些所謂的永久屋所以他沒有所謂的保固的一個問題那所以如果類似以後有這樣的一個那麼強的風災發生的時候如果還有永久屋的一個需求的話應該這個保固的應該列為他們以後在建造類似房子的一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":239.547,"end":266.532,"text":"選項,因為當時沒有重視這個,你看那個臺東的大午來看,你看它每一個房子幾乎都有呈現大小不一的一個非常嚴重的問題,而且是沒有人可以幫他們解決,因為它是永久屋嘛,它是已經給你保管,所以你等於是要自己去自費去處理,相關所有沒有這樣的經費去幫忙他們來,比如說排水溝的問題啦,屋內漏水的問題啦,這些諸如此類品質不良的問題。"},{"start":268.558,"end":293.614,"text":"還有比較重要就是說這個三方契約當時的三方契約就是跟就是受災戶慈善團體跟縣市政府辦的一個三方契約不過這三方契約非常的嚴苛不得處分不得出租也不得設定負擔不得在回原居地居住或建造房屋這個三方契約如果不檢討的話會衍生的問題會越來越多接下來我們再看下一個問題"},{"start":297.369,"end":316.685,"text":"上方契約的當然是一個美意不過他現在我們看到了世代傳承人口繁衍生活發展包括他的目的這些都沒有在當時的考量範圍裡面然後他必須在三個月之內當時要離開他的原來的居住的地方那不得再回原居地"},{"start":317.27,"end":338.217,"text":"然後還有一個就是最重要我認為最重要的就是他的土地是政府地方政府管有你看一下我們呃位在元寶地的有這些區域哈比如說山梅啦加蘭啊這些哈還有我們牡丹那在傳統領域的有有來幾的山林的里那裡的這些我相信主委都大概都了解哈"},{"start":338.777,"end":365.529,"text":"那我們是希望這個永久屋的土地所有權取得的這個問題能夠聽當地民眾的真實需求評估永久屋取得土地所有權的事法性或者是研究其他可行的方案不然他們在那裡到底是算什麼呢又不能回主居地那個土地又不是他的又不能去所謂的成豬或者是說很多限制就對了好不好"},{"start":366.549,"end":385.119,"text":"這麼多年了已經第15年我相信我們應該好好處理這個問題然後呢就是我們監察院竟然已經處理我們災後的人權促進會他的問題可是我們已經初刊了兩年了到現在還是沒有相關的一個配套措施來回應監察院的問題不是嗎"},{"start":390.141,"end":415.888,"text":"我跟委員報告這個永久屋會有永久屋是當時就是說設立他在平地蓋永久屋他原來的土地原來的房子還是他的就是說他這邊永久屋也有也有他的房子跟土地那麼原來的這個房屋讓他休養生息幾年幾十年之後他還是可以回去工作也好回去就是說去做一些檢疫的這個"},{"start":416.787,"end":416.987,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":446.767,"end":446.907,"text":"盧縣一、盧縣一、盧縣一﹗"},{"start":467.64,"end":486.198,"text":"執政的關係他要新設立三個委員會他竟然可以成立三個新的委員會針對這三千多戶我們能不能在行政院設立個專案辦公室來統合來整理來解決他們現在的問題可以嗎報告委員呃行政院吳哲成前政委啊他已經就永久屋"},{"start":486.999,"end":501.441,"text":"正策來組織過專案的小組也開過歷次的會議做了一些重大的一些決定比如為了保障這個土地永久的是是使用他不能被列為法拍的一個標的物所以他不能透過這個行為"},{"start":502.162,"end":523.823,"text":"目前所遇到的現在所有的問題誰可以解決．比如說剛才說的排水溝的問題．．內部設計不良的問題．．還有它的引用水．．還有它的那個冰藏的用地這些．．如果大家都全部集中在縣市政府．．我相信他們是沒有辦法來解決．．一定要中央層級來處理這樣的一個問題．．委員在歷年內政部也發布過莫納克颱風災．．"},{"start":525.444,"end":543.167,"text":"後民間興建鎮宇住宅修繕補助作業的要點每戶補助10萬元那麼在112、113兩年補助的地方政府已經有637件這個有沒有實際上幫助到居在永久屋裡面的原住民的朋友"},{"start":543.467,"end":569.529,"text":"莫納克受災的這個受災如果還做不到我們還要再做更多實在是不希望我們所謂的人權促進會到座又跑到監察院跑到行政院跑到哪裡去舉白布條抗議沒人去處理他們的問題如果有個專案的辦公室時時刻刻來解決他們的問題是不是你們就可以預防這些一些人權團體忽時的就要來爆發甚至在屏東有發生過自焚事件"},{"start":570.748,"end":572.51,"text":"一定有必要,不然我還會持續做這個問題,好嗎?"},{"start":572.51,"end":572.61,"text":"主委"},{"start":597.81,"end":620.161,"text":"那針對我們原住民進法補償,謝謝昨天已經公佈法律了,我有看到公告。那本席想要確認的就是說,是他會壓縮到我們原有的預算嗎?還是行政院這邊要籌編預算,我只想知道這個答案。主委跟委員報告,那有關這個進法補償現在是已經公佈了。"},{"start":623.427,"end":650.747,"text":"我們現在也在做概算的籌編當然我們是希望說我們有跟農業部這裡再怎麼樣就是說我們跟他們協調看怎麼樣在這個森林保育底下還有在這麼所有的這個保留地的林地有很多是跟我們這個農業部這裡有重疊的我們在想在提報一個中長城計畫是不是"},{"start":651.627,"end":676.803,"text":"希望那個多出來的3萬塊每公頃3萬塊能不能也在在這個裡面來做來做處理那總是就是我們希望我們會循程序來提報那當然我們也希望就是說這個業裡面會給我們協助這樣公告這是明年要實施嘛就是明年實施沒有問題也不會打折扣也沒有也沒有當書也沒有附加條件這是大家比較關心的問題"},{"start":678.922,"end":679.062,"text":"﹚主席﹚"},{"start":702.677,"end":717.707,"text":"最重要的個人在選舉期間的政見謝謝那針對我們原住民文化行政人才的養成我一再的在說明就是說目前的原住民的各個地區的民族文物館很多大概目前有156名是臨時人員"},{"start":720.009,"end":745.009,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":745.441,"end":758.848,"text":"就人事行政總書這邊去徵涉我們針對原住民特考裡面來開立我們文化行政直系的一個源額這個跟委員報告我們會要求縣尤其是特別有這個"},{"start":760.27,"end":760.37,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":789.455,"end":795.099,"text":"報告委員現行的原住民族特考裡面我們已經是有文化行政的對只考過一次只有一個人那個人已經過世了人數比較少人數比較少"},{"start":818.635,"end":839.061,"text":"那這個已經有開辦這樣的類科的考試,我想將來是維持,那我也希望到那個地方去,優秀的,有志於此的,對文化工作能夠投入的,我們也希望他經過這樣的考試,成為一個專業的人才,為國家來服務,這個共同來努力。﹖他不僅僅是一個文化的一個載體,他也可以"},{"start":839.521,"end":839.761,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣"},{"start":866.57,"end":866.67,"text":"（6月25日（"},{"start":880.483,"end":900.637,"text":"現在聚落是商戶嘛,定義為商戶,希望就針對泰雅族的部分不要以商戶為聚落,因為當然是整體來說商戶是可以達成,可是就泰雅族群來說,他的散居的個性,獨特性他沒有辦法商戶變成一個聚落,這個可以做調整,針對泰雅族群的。"},{"start":903.086,"end":930.5,"text":"第二個就是說為辦理保存登記的如何取得建造使用執照。．第三個最後一個就是說．針對我們原住民這個受理．我們的使用住宅的時候．他不應該設落日條款。．因為我記得很像在每次在國土計劃法的一些說明會的時候．很像都有落日條款。 是我跟委員報告一下您剛所說的這個聚落的定義"},{"start":947.347,"end":947.848,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝盧委員。謝謝卓院長。"}]}},{"id":"154166","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154166","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fbf6f81777b6b425924c867c7a3ae89c54fca685e446a57a3836f91084d7de248f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:19:19 - 09:36:30","影片長度":"00:17:11","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 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隔壁的因為他是漢民族,不了解我們的文化,"},{"start":288.267,"end":315.43,"text":"我們總是被排擠在尊嚴上孩子在受教育的時候在尊嚴上在自尊上都會受損我們去思考一下從這個角度如果我們要培育我們的孩子我們希望我們的孩子要得到什麼更好的教育能夠在自尊尊嚴上能夠有更好的理念跟正確的觀念我們做父母的有責任社會有責任國家有責任"},{"start":316.482,"end":319.293,"text":"院長,你認為我講的有沒有道理?謝謝委員我始終認為啊"},{"start":323.208,"end":350.942,"text":"原住民族曾經是臺灣這塊土地上唯一的主人。 你講得好,講得好。 就歷史上來看,曾經是這塊土地上唯一的主人。經過這麼多年來,現在都是你我共同的家園。 我們共同讓它進步,共同學習彼此的長處,共同來彌補過去在這塊土地上造成的所有的不公平。 現在用種種的公共的政策,我們來做更多的協助,但是"},{"start":351.957,"end":353.878,"text":"好 院長你剛剛前面講的我非常認同你對原住民的歷史的肯定"},{"start":381.089,"end":395.329,"text":"但從蔡英文公告全世界包含全國公開的道歉你依你的現在的行政院院長的高度你也認為有沒有道歉這個這個含義"},{"start":397.321,"end":411.64,"text":"你願不願意在這個地方跟全國的國人的原住民道歉?蔡前總統以總統的身份在向原住民族表示那就是一種國家基本的態度跟政策"},{"start":412.261,"end":412.361,"text":"希望能夠併進"},{"start":440.523,"end":465.202,"text":"因為原住民已經沒有時間再來一直訴求著就是說希望能改變我們的生活居住權包含土地土地的保障法希望是一直在陳述這樣的理由但是依你們的高度跟過去裡面對原住民的認同跟肯定跟懷疑歷史的時候也應該要並進進步推動我們"},{"start":470.39,"end":494.129,"text":"不分族群的生活條件包含他的教育環境跟居住環境應該要提升。 這就是我們一直訴求的地方。 社會主宰今天我看到你的對原住民的政策裡面當然這個也包含了內政部長你們提供給行政院長的一個報告那這邊就提到這個"},{"start":497.236,"end":522.533,"text":"看到你的在第13頁的部分雖然提到保障原住民主權利等內容且只有短短的六行的文字的帶過讓人看不出政府對原住民族人的重視現在針對這個院長的口頭報告內容以下有三點就叫我們的院長第一"},{"start":523.96,"end":546.895,"text":"2016 2016年蔡英文上任之後向原住民道歉請問院長你是否針對原住民土地及居住正義的問題在這個地方利用這個機會向原住民處人的道歉。第二在行政院院長施政報告中卻沒有談到如何落實原住民的居住正義可能內政部沒有給你報告這些項目原因"},{"start":547.936,"end":576.622,"text":"我們把內容基礎正義的這個項目告訴給大家原住民現在面臨的問題在哪裡在原住民的住宅法裡面第二條第三項目的事業主管機關原民會應視原住民主教育及語言文化等傳承文這個發展還有會同主管機關就是內政部新辦或獎勵民間新辦專攻原住民成都或社會住宅"},{"start":577.422,"end":603.492,"text":"第二、原住民族家庭自有住宅率76.66%,相對乃低於我國全體家庭的90.22%。第三、原鄉地區原住民自有住宅率約90%,但都會區原住民自有住宅率僅55%左右,較一般家庭房屋自有率"},{"start":604.092,"end":625.072,"text":"差距相當於31%到34%,這個就是在106年臺灣原住民主經濟狀況調查報告中差距高達42%,雖然以拉近差距但整體來講房租及房貸乃是原住民主任最大的經濟負擔來源。"},{"start":626.86,"end":651.414,"text":"所以今天我們要講的你們過去推動的這個社會住宅是非常很多人在各縣市裡面我曾經在台中市擔任過世界的議員當時對於產業經濟跟房地的衝擊如果你建蓋在它的產值最高的公高限值的土地裡面建蓋社會住宅很多人反對"},{"start":653.175,"end":671.595,"text":"韓國反對因為什麼衝擊他的價格跟公告限制所以他們認為社會住宅就是一般百姓給百姓住的社會住宅可是到最後呢最後人人都要社會住宅不管在他在哪一個這個"},{"start":676.594,"end":684.632,"text":"黃色袋裡面金黃袋裡面它的價格土地的價格在貴的地方蓋社會主宰沒有人反對為什麼"},{"start":686.749,"end":686.769,"text":"﹚黃仁"},{"start":717.373,"end":741.702,"text":"兩個地方第一叫志強新村的原地重建第二是花東新村的原地重建在臺中一個霧峰一個太平當時很多人懷疑那個地方建蓋之後會怎麼樣建蓋之後是一個變成一個特色從胡志強到林佳龍到盧秀燕當時他們認為那個地方原地重建會衝擊到"},{"start":743.081,"end":750.175,"text":"地方的這些產值或是這個文化的差異的不同可是後來呢變成一個特色"},{"start":751.018,"end":780.462,"text":"而且他們環境過得非常好而且有他們自己的自主的環境跟文化的傳承這就是我們今天要延伸到原住民的社會專屬社會住宅的概念希望能夠建蓋然後遍地在各縣市裡面建蓋原住民的專屬社會住宅融合16屬裡面能夠有自主的生活文化的傳承包含他的這些教育"},{"start":781.263,"end":794.22,"text":"都在裡面而且統一的照顧這就是我們社會要不要得正的行為以上部長我想請教一下有沒有有沒有機會"},{"start":797.021,"end":818.562,"text":"來做一個特別預算建蓋原住民的社會住宅。謝謝黃委員的指教。委員有提到所謂的原住民的居住正義有兩種,一個就是在山上的。在山上原鄉部落的話其實按照我們的國土計畫法所謂的一生一次,或者按照國土功能限地就可以完全有住宅使用。所以您剛剛提到的90%應該是根據國土計畫法推動的。"},{"start":823.046,"end":836.956,"text":"現在我不要去講這些,我現在要講的有沒有必要用特別預算而且特別專案,建蓋原住民的專屬社會住宅不要被配給,有沒有必要?"},{"start":837.196,"end":863.576,"text":"我先跟我委員回應一下第一個我們一定會來協助那這個呢您在推動的臺中市啊這個所謂的都會原住民裡面的專用社會住宅是臺中市政府在推動的那按照我們住宅法上面的目的事業主管機關也是我們在中央的原民會可以幫忙來推動沒關係我下次您聽我講完像你先提出你的細節的報告給我好不好還有原民會我今天我是勞過你一次因為你現在什麼都不懂"},{"start":864.196,"end":887.356,"text":"希望你下次我在問你的時候你每個都要懂。報告委員在住宅法裡面規定目的事業主管機關必須依照這個原住民族的語言文化等等去興建社會住宅。這是原民會的權證。我現在講原住民的身分法我們評估處的回歸來暫停一下我的時間然後播放一下影片這個是民國111年的7月26日"},{"start":890.96,"end":908.749,"text":"納平原反對平埔納平原現法法庭這個月28日即將開庭針對希拉雅族證明與納入平地原住民的案子進行釋憲就有部分的原住民團體跟議員出面反對平埔族因為經過400年來跟漢族群的"},{"start":909.52,"end":938.767,"text":"大量通婚大量的同化文化的融合在外觀上已經跟漢族群沒有任何差異我們認為他們在法律上欠缺保障的標的他們可以循這個正常的管道成立我們相關的這個事務單位這個平埔族的族群委員會那我想這個也不會排擠到現行的54萬原住民的所有的相關的權益未來相關制定的福利政策"},{"start":940.418,"end":947.928,"text":"應該要成民主的程序來進行才對而不是馬上就弄到憲法庭裡面"},{"start":948.513,"end":972.97,"text":"有13個法官來裁決一群來自臺南的希臘族人真的無法取得平地原住民身份提出行政訴訟更一審認為移民法有違憲之餘申請釋憲但就怕資源已經夠少的平地原住民在加入平埔族群會稀釋資源造成不公原住民團體呼籲大法官應該先請聽法定16族原住民的聲音登記小孩子或是登記我的媳婦或是登記我的"},{"start":973.951,"end":974.612,"text":"我反對他們進入但是雖然他們有紅話的話"},{"start":992.583,"end":993.363,"text":"我們時間很大。那個"},{"start":1022.486,"end":1029.982,"text":"希望他能夠成立一個評估組事務委員會,並照柯委員會的理想。"}]}},{"id":"154165","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154165","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb2a03269d93d135854c867c7a3ae89c54fca685e446a57a38b6542863091eb3de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"09:03:33 - 09:19:11","影片長度":"00:15:38","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T09:03:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T09:19:11+08:00","duration":938,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":19,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（9時3分）謝謝主席，請行政院卓院長跟內政部劉部長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢，還有內政部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：院長好，部長好。院長，一開始來跟你討論幾個客觀數字，近五年臺灣的總人口減少了16.8萬人，但臺中市逆勢增加4.6萬人。我們來看的話，其實臺中市的人口從不少縣市移入，包含周邊的彰化縣、南投縣也都移入，以及來自全國各地，包含新北、臺北、高雄也都分別移入了許多人。我們看到前五名的彰化、新北、南投、臺北、高雄中，新北、臺北、高雄移入的人口是9,282人，彰化、南投移入的是1萬1,000多人，所以整體來講可以肯定，臺中市的人口增加可能跟本身推動很多重大建設，還有跟中部的共同生活圈逐漸成形有關係。","今天我特別提到臺中市的人口成長，第一個，因為臺中市人口逐漸增加，所以有很多重大建設也都需要中央來幫忙，所以今天第一點，我要感謝行政院推動永續提升行人安全計畫，在前幾週核定，臺中的確拿到非常多的經費，核定五億多的經費，我想這個第一個感謝。第二個要拜託，一樣的邏輯，臺中市有這麼多的移入人口，全國在減少，但臺中在增加，尤其在我個人的選區裡面增加比例是最高的情況下，我們當然要拜託這個永續提升行人安全計畫在下一個階段裡面，行政院跟內政部是不是可以同意繼續來支持臺中？因為這麼多人移入，我也特別重視行人安全。我們可以看到，尤其是人口結構上來講，很多都是所謂年輕家庭，年輕家庭就會有小孩，其實小孩的問題最擔心的就是他的通學步道、他的行人安全，這些都是很多年輕家庭最重視的生活細節，這個雖然沒有很政治，但都是人民最關心的民生問題。所以我想問行政院跟內政部，在接下來二階段，也是所謂的永續提升行人安全計畫裡面，是不是能夠繼續來支持，讓臺中能夠申請更多的經費來做相關人行道的工程？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝黃委員的關心，對於行人安全的永續計畫，本來就沒有政黨的差別，臺中市是一個新興而且發展非常快的都市，行人安全計畫裡面，我們當然第一階段已經公布了相當多，包括在黃委員的選區裡面有相當多的計畫，未來如果有需求的話，我們會用滾動式的方式繼續增加這方面的補助。目前為止行人安全的永續提升計畫大概就是交通部跟內政部，尤其以我們的國土管理署為主，所以我們要到地方政府來做會勘，包括在校園的安全、行人的安全或者是行人道上面的鋪面改善，屬於硬體設備改善的部分，都是由國土管理署跟臺中市政府一起來合作、來改善。我們很希望在短期之內就能達成這樣的目標，像目前行政院已經核定全臺灣大概有799處，我想臺中市的比例算相當地高，尤其是六都裡面，所以我們來繼續加油。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，謝謝，也拜託院長，因為臺中現在第一個當然是推動大眾運輸，這在交通業務質詢的時候我會來拜託，也會來要求，但是大眾運輸做完之後，最重要的就是最後一哩路要怎麼走完？怎麼從大眾運輸的節點走到他家裡面？這個就需要很完善的道路安全、行人安全系統。當然，臺灣在這件事情上面，這幾年開始關注，其他先進國家做這些事情做了很多年，我們現在才開始要做，要做多久？不知道。但是我拜託，按照人口比例、按照城市發展的結構來看，臺中應該是行政院協助做行人安全的重點城市，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛部長所說的，全國易肇事路口799處，我已經要求他三個月內要完成半數，到年底之前要全數完成，其中如果在委員的臺中大都會區裡面有重要的路口，也請委員指示，我們能夠列為這個順序來辦理，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝院長、謝謝部長。談完行人安全，我也來談一下房價的問題。先提供幾個客觀數字，全國六都，包含新竹縣市的房價所得比逐年……當然每年這個數字……如果我們從2023年Q4往前回推10年左右，其實全國的房價所得比上漲非常、非常多，我想這也是一個客觀的事實。當然政府一直說要打房，我們也知道政府做了很多行動來打房，但是我們可以看到房價卻是越打越高，從當初的房地合一稅上路之後，我們包含政府，大家都期待房價會因為房地合一稅上路之後而有明顯地下降，即使沒有下降，至少持平，但是不只沒有持平，從這個數字可以看到，曲線圖是快速地在成長。","其實我認為大家推動相關的政策，本意、立意都是良善的，但是今天為什麼打房會越打越高？我想提供觀點給院長跟部長來思考，就是到底有沒有需要去推動政策來打房？因為你打房，我想最核心的問題是你今天在跟資本市場對做，當然理論上來講，我們希望房子不應該是資本市場的玩具、工具，這是理論上，但實際上臺灣社會的現狀裡面，房價為什麼會越打越高？我覺得是因為某種程度上變成是資本市場資金轉進的方向，所以你不斷地推動更多的政策，其實某種程度上是在跟資本市場來對做。所以居住正義的問題要怎麼解決？接下來要繼續跟院長和部長討論。在討論之前，我想先請問部長跟院長，除了打房、打壓房價之外，你們覺得還有什麼樣的政策角度可以解決高房價問題？"],["劉部長世芳：我先回應好嗎？"],["黃委員健豪：可以，兩位都可以回答。"],["劉部長世芳：我想大家都知道，不只房地合一稅，其實比較重要的是平均地權，在我們修改之後，對於房地或房價是有一波稍微緩和的效果，但是大家也知道，房價越打越高有很多因素，大概第一個，臺灣的經濟現在真的非常暢旺；另外就是大部分臺灣居民會覺得房子不是只有自己住，有的人覺得房子可以拿來當成投資生財的工具。其實所謂的打炒房，目前政府的方向大概會以這個為主。","我跟委員報告，我想委員也是年輕人，一定非常關心現在所謂的新青安貸款，新青安貸款是一個相當不錯的政策，我們是為了年輕人、為了剛入社會的這些人可以用比較平價的方式取得房子，我們的立意良善，所以包括中央銀行、財政部、金管會，還有內政部，大家都有一致的立場，希望協助年輕人可以很快速取得平價居住的房子，但是有的人，包括一些不肖業者，甚至網紅，卻把它當成炒作的工具，利用人頭戶，或是利用相關條件裡面的部分……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，抱歉，我打斷一下，其實我認為政府推動政策都是立意良善……"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝支持。"],["黃委員健豪：但這是自由資本市場，你們提出政策之後，當然大家會想盡辦法，我剛剛也提到，如果他們把房子視為資本工具，當政府推出各項政策丟到市場時，當然它很有可能馬上變成另外一項投機炒作的工具……"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以有檢討的空間。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，房價高高低低有很多因素，建築、土地成本，還有就是群聚形成，譬如科技園區、高科技工業區等等都有可能；另外就是都會區的形成，像臺中都會區一形成之後，就往都會區集中。"],["黃委員健豪：沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也認為打是要打不法，我們打擊犯罪、打擊毒品才叫打，房子本身沒有罪，所以應該正名，此後就是打炒房，有炒房的行為我們絕對打，但是房屋的價值，一方面是社會、市場的成本，一方面政府用公共政策把它平抑下去，所以不是打房，是打炒房。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝院長，既然談到公共政策，我要提的是除了打房之外，因為房價現階段就還是這個價格，所以政府的邏輯或政府出發的政策角度，應該是讓年輕人、讓多數的國民有權利、有地方可以住，是吧？我們的共識是不是這樣子？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["黃委員健豪：好，如果這個是共識的話，我們看一下社會住宅的問題。臺灣很多的理論都說社會住宅基本存量是5%，我想這個數字是參考日本的數字，所以是5%，其實各先進國家，不管美國、新加坡，甚至是韓國，亞洲國家當然數量相對比較低，歐洲國家、社會福利比較好的國家，它的比率比較高，但5%是現在社會的共識。回到臺灣現在的狀況來看，針對全國社會住宅興辦進度的狀況，今年年初我也曾經詢問過前院長這個問題，唯一更動的標準只是那時候是1月底，而現在是5月31日的達成數。到目前為止，全國實際由中央興建社宅而可以入住的有三萬多戶，這個比率跟本來預計要達到的十二萬戶還是有一定程度的差距。後來2025年到2032年的社會住宅政策……我們放眼到現階段，因為現在已經是2024年了，過去的事情，當然我們就檢討完，但是我們現在要放眼2025年到2032年，目標是要達到一百萬戶，這一百萬戶裡面，二十五萬戶那時候是說要直接興建，二十五萬戶包租代管，以及五十萬戶的租金補貼，原先的政策是不是這樣子？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們的百萬租屋社會住宅政策確實是朝著這三個方向，就是直接興建社會住宅、包租代管，還有租金補貼，其中租金補貼的部分，已經遠遠超過原來預期的目標。"],["黃委員健豪：這個我等一下會提到，的確，我覺得你們租金補貼的目標放的太低了一點，所以現在達到了。好，我要提出的是，今天我們講的這一百萬戶，現在已經改了，在新總統上任之後，把本來的這百萬社宅目標改成了八年百萬租屋之家庭支持計畫。我要跟部長也跟院長提醒一件事情，租屋是什麼意思？其實一樣就會回到資本市場的問題，今天你補貼民眾去租屋，的確可以解決他短期的問題，但他的房子是從哪裡來？他要去哪裡租？不就是要跟人家買的房子租嗎？你推動了新青安政策，同時又推動了各項政策，如果我是個有點資本的人，我當然去買房子，我繼續租給這些還買不起房子的人，反正他會拿政府的租屋補貼來補貼我房子的房貸，那我當然可以有恃無恐繼續買房啊！所以我今天要講的是，如果今天政府推動的百萬社宅真的是由政府興建或者是民間投資興建，我當然支持，但如果用成租屋補貼的話，我想這跟社宅的定義有一定程度的落差。院長，你怎麼看？"],["劉部長世芳：我來回應好嗎？黃委員的觀察非常正確，但是我們在過去一段時間以來，是要解決剛剛進入就業市場年輕人的問題，我們期待租金補貼過了一段時間以後，可能他家戶的經濟所得增加了，就有可能去外面買一般的房子，不需要再經過租金補貼的部分或是包租代管，我們是從這個觀點切進去的。所謂興建社宅的部分，黃委員您的說法非常正確，我們未來興建社會住宅，不會是只有公務機關，譬如像內政部或者是臺中市政府，我們也鼓勵企業界按照住宅法的規定，它可以直接興建社會住宅。如果直接興建社會住宅，對於企業未來要進用新人或者是留住這些人的話，其實幫助會非常大。同時未來我們興建社會住宅會朝著所謂的小造鎮，也就是說，社會住宅的興建，不要把它放在山邊或是水邊非常偏僻的地方，它是有很好的生活機能在，所以朝著小造鎮來發展的話，興建社會住宅的社會功能性，對於幫忙年輕族群進入社會幫助就會非常大，所以我們未來會多元及多管齊下來鼓勵企業界，甚至內政部以外的其他部會，譬如說國防部也可以，或者是其他單位一起來興建社會住宅。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝部長，我聽到了關鍵，其實在之前的質詢我也提過相關的概念，現在的社會住宅基本上全都是由政府來興建，包含住都中心也好、各地方政府也好，都是由政府出資出土地來興建，但是明明住宅法裡面就有鼓勵民間興辦的相關規定，到底提供什麼獎勵，針對細節的部分，我覺得內政部可以跟大家一起來思考，但是我覺得的確你應該把這個壓力轉嫁出去給資本市場，大家賺那麼多錢，大家到底要怎麼樣回饋給社會？我想如果能夠鼓勵民間興辦，讓多數的國民有權利能夠住得起房子……其實住的地方不一定是用買的，他可以用長期租屋的形式，透過政府的政策，他有機會在年輕的時候、在還沒有穩定財政的時候，他能夠有地方、有去處。政府鼓勵民間興辦社會住宅，是未來下一個階段社會住宅興建的政策目標嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，委員的觀察非常正確，在住宅法第十九條裡面，確實有提到民間可以自行運用土地，譬如像新北市政府已經用BOT的方式，在中和跟三重處理所謂的青年社會住宅，所以未來臺中市政府如果要朝著這方面來發展或是發揮的話，站在內政部的立場一定會來鼓勵跟多多支持。"],["黃委員健豪：院長呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的指教，從剛剛委員提供的那個表格當中，我們都看得出來現在的量還是不夠的，量還要提升，當然興建是一個方式，但短期之內釋放出比較多的閒置餘屋，讓它出租也是一個方式，至於跟民間合作，這個就是委員所提到，我們未來也希望朝這個方向一起來努力，讓民間能夠投入，跟政府公私部門共同來合力，我們才有辦法在一定的時間把量增加出來。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝院長，謝謝部長，針對居住正義的問題，就如剛剛所提到，除了打之外，更重要的是讓人民有地方住，這才是這個政策最重要的核心，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝院長，下一位請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.91221875,"end":5.7009687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.122843750000001,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.856593750000002,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.516593750000002,"end":25.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.714718750000003,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.76534375,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.27971875,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.978468750000005,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.12909375,"end":57.540968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.91221875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.16659375,"end":77.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.21284375,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.95034375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.02721875,"end":117.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.86909375,"end":124.28159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.85534375,"end":128.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.23034375,"end":159.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.14096875,"end":163.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.95471875,"end":164.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.76471875000001,"end":188.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.91284375,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.14159375000003,"end":224.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.76846875,"end":222.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.62034375000002,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.61596875,"end":261.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.30659375,"end":264.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.61409375,"end":265.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.37346875000003,"end":268.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.33909375,"end":271.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.42721875,"end":272.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.01784375,"end":274.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.75596875,"end":284.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.51409375000003,"end":289.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.06159375000004,"end":306.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.15596875,"end":327.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.55346875000004,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.63221875000005,"end":340.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.68659375000004,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.55534375,"end":352.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.95471875000004,"end":357.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.24096875000004,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.52221875000004,"end":371.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.82096875,"end":380.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.61284375,"end":386.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.91971875,"end":389.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.14721875000004,"end":391.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.78409375,"end":393.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.58971875000003,"end":394.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.48409375,"end":396.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.98159375,"end":399.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.98534375,"end":400.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.82909375,"end":401.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.02721875000003,"end":402.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.16221875,"end":403.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.22534375000004,"end":408.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.57471875000005,"end":411.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.78096875,"end":415.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.11784375,"end":423.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.57659375000003,"end":433.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.73534375,"end":438.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.91596875000005,"end":465.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.03409375,"end":467.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.78909375,"end":480.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.77909375,"end":480.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.78284375000004,"end":480.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.18784375,"end":486.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.49534375,"end":485.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.87471875000006,"end":501.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.98221875,"end":502.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.03284375000004,"end":501.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","star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這個一開始來跟討論幾個客觀數字啊我想近5年臺灣的總人口減少了16.8萬人但臺中市逆勢的增加4.6萬人那如果我們來看的話其實臺中市不少縣市的名字都移入包含說周邊的彰化縣、南投縣也都移入那全國來自全國各地包含新北、臺北、高雄也都分別移入了許多人喔那所以其實你看到說這個前5名的彰化、新北、南投、臺北、高雄"},{"start":57.987,"end":62.751,"text":"臺中市的人口增加可能跟這個本身有很多重大建設推動還有跟中部的共同生活圈逐漸成形有關係"},{"start":78.203,"end":101.328,"text":"今天為什麼特別提到這個臺中市的人口成長?第一個就是說因為臺中市人口逐漸增加所以有很多的這個重大建設也都需要這個中央的來幫忙所以今天第一點我要來感謝我們行政院包括說推動這個永續提升行政安全計畫在前幾週來核定讓臺中的確拿到了非常多的經費5億多的經費核定我想這個第一個感謝"},{"start":102.068,"end":127.734,"text":"那第二個要拜託就是說一樣的邏輯臺中是有這麼多的移入人口全國在減少但臺中在增加尤其是在我個人的選區裡面它的增加比例是最高的情況下面我們當然要拜託說這個永續提升行人安全計畫在下一個階段裡面行政院跟內政部是不是可以同意繼續來支持臺中因為我想這個這麼多人移入那我想我也特別重視我們這個行人安全"},{"start":128.354,"end":143.234,"text":"那這麼多人一路可以看到說尤其是人口結構上來講他很多都是所謂年輕家庭年輕家庭他就會有小孩那小孩的問題其實就是最擔心就是說他通學步道他的行人安全我想都是很多年輕家庭最重視的一個生活上的細節"},{"start":144.355,"end":162.902,"text":"這個雖然沒有很政治但是我想都是人民最關心的民生問題所以我想問一下我們行政院跟內政部在接下來二階段也是所謂的行人永續提升永續提升的行人安全計畫裡面是不是能夠繼續來支持讓臺中能夠申請更多的經費來做相關人行道的工程"},{"start":166.099,"end":188.596,"text":"謝謝黃委員的關心。我想對於行人的安全的永續計畫本來就沒有政黨的差別。那對於台中市是一個新興而且發展非常快的這個都市呢,行人安全計畫裡面我們當然第一階段已經公布了相當多,包括黃委員在你的選區裡面也相當多這個計畫。那未來如果有需求的話我們用滾動式的方式會繼續增加這方面的補助。"},{"start":189.276,"end":216.209,"text":"目前為止行人安全的永續提升計畫大概就是交通部跟內政部尤其是我們的國土管理署為主所以我們要到地方政府來做會刊包括在校園的安全或是行人的安全或者是行人道上面的鋪面改善屬於硬體設備改善的部分都是由國土管理署跟我們台中市政府一起來合作來改善我們很希望在短期之內就達成這樣的目標像目前行政院已經合訂全台灣大概有799處"},{"start":217.95,"end":223.356,"text":"我想台中市的這個比例算相當的高尤其是六都裡面所以我們來繼續加油"},{"start":224.67,"end":253.389,"text":"好部長謝謝也謝謝拜託院長因為我想台中現在對第一個當然推動大宗運輸這在交通業務質詢的時候會來拜託也會來這個來要求但是這個交通大宗運輸做完之後大家對重要的就是所謂最後一里路怎麼走完怎麼從這個大宗運輸的節點走到他家裡面這個就需要很完善的這個道路安全行人安全系統當然台灣在這件事情上面這幾年開始關注那其他先進國家他做這件事情做了很多年那我們現在開始做"},{"start":253.789,"end":256.072,"text":"報告委員．剛剛部長所說的全國依照是路口799處．我已經要求他3個月內要完成半數．"},{"start":272.472,"end":275.373,"text":"謝謝院長、謝謝部長。 台灣市民安全我們來談一下我們的房價問題。 也是先提供幾個客觀數字。"},{"start":290.134,"end":305.991,"text":"我想這個全國六都包含新竹縣市的這個房價所得比我想逐年當然每年這個數字那如果我們從2023年Q4往前回推10年左右其實全國的房價所得比的這個比例上漲了非常非常多我想這也是一個客觀的事實"},{"start":307.556,"end":327.072,"text":"當然政府一直說要打房,當然我們也知道政府做了很多行動來打房,但是我們可以看到房價越打越高。 房價越打越高我們看到從當初房地合一稅上路之後,我們包含政府大家都期待說房價因為房地合一稅上路之後能夠有明顯的下降,但是"},{"start":328.613,"end":352.344,"text":"因為說不只下降,至少持平嘛,但是不只沒有持平啊,你看這個數字它的曲線圖它是快速的在成長。那其實我認為大家推動相關的政策本意利益都是良善的,但是我想今天為什麼打房會越打越高,我想提供觀點給院長跟部長來思考啊,就是到底有沒有需要去推動政策來打房。"},{"start":353.044,"end":371.157,"text":"因為你打房我想最核心的問題是說你今天是在跟資本市場對坐當然理論上來講我們希望房子不應該是資本市場的玩具工具這是理論上但實際上台灣現狀社會裡面來講它的這個房價為什麼越打越高就是因為它我覺得變成某種程度上變成這個資本市場"},{"start":372.057,"end":384.347,"text":"（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日下午1時50分為處理�"},{"start":404.493,"end":421.387,"text":"我想大家都知道不只是這個房地合一稅其實比較重要是平均地權我們修改之後那對於這個房地或是房價他是有一波稍微緩和的效果但是大家也都知道這個房價越打越高其中有很多因素大概第一個臺灣的經濟現在真的是非常的暢旺"},{"start":423.789,"end":423.909,"text":"﹚黃健豪﹚黃健豪"},{"start":448.735,"end":449.015,"text":"﹚黃健豪﹚"},{"start":477.003,"end":506.477,"text":"或是所謂利用這個條件裡面的部分。 我打斷一下我還是提到其實我認為政府推動的政策都是良利良善但是因為這個自由資本市場所以你提出來之後當然大家會想盡辦法委員提到因為如果房子他本身把它視為資本的工具的時候政府推動各項政策他丟到市場上去當然他很有可能馬上就變成另外一項投機炒作的工具了是所以有檢討的空間跟委員報告房價的高高低低很多因素"},{"start":507.29,"end":532.902,"text":"建築土地成本還有就是群聚形成科技園區高科技工業區等等他都有可能另外就是都會區的形成像台中都會區一形成之後就往都會區來集中沒錯我也很認為打是打不法我們打擊犯罪打擊毒品才叫打防他本身沒有罪所以我們應該證明此後我們就是打草防有草防的行為我們絕對打"},{"start":534.443,"end":552.956,"text":"但是房屋它的價值一方面是社會市場的成本一方面政府要用公共的政策來把它平抑下去而不是打房是打炒房好謝謝院長既然談到公共政策我要提出說除了打房之外因為房價現在就還是這個價格現階段所以政府的"},{"start":553.436,"end":553.616,"text":"﹚黃健豪﹚"},{"start":576.727,"end":580.131,"text":"韓國、亞洲國家、歐洲國家社會福利比較好的國家比例比較高,但是我想這個5%是現在社會的共識,那如果回到台灣現在的狀況來講,"},{"start":593.388,"end":616.533,"text":"在這個全國社會住宅新辦的進度的這個狀況來講我今年初的時候那時候前院長在的時候我也問過這問題那只是唯一的跟動的標準是那時候是1月底那現在是5月31的這個數字到目前為止全國這實際這個中央來興建的社宅可以入住的3萬多戶我想這個比例跟本來預計的要達到這個12萬戶還是一定程度的這個差距啊"},{"start":617.193,"end":628.401,"text":"那這個從這個後來的2025年到2032年的社會住宅政策裡面我們放眼到這個現階段現在2024的過去的事情當然我們就檢討完但是我們現在放眼2025到2032目標要達到100萬戶100萬戶裡面有25萬戶那時候說要直接興建25萬戶要包租代管也50萬戶的租金補貼原先的政策是不是長這樣子"},{"start":644.88,"end":670.005,"text":"2025到2032我們的百萬租屋這個社會住宅政策確實是朝著三個方向就是直接興建社會住宅然後包租代管還有租金補貼其中租金補貼的部分已經遠遠超過原來預期的目標這個我等一下會提到的確我覺得你這個租金補貼的目標放得有點太低了一點現在達到了好那我要提出說今年今天那邊講這100萬戶的裡面25現在已經改了因為現在這個我想新總統上來之後呢"},{"start":670.985,"end":695.946,"text":"把這個本來的百萬社宅目標改成了這個八年這個百萬租屋之家庭的支持計畫。那我要跟部長也跟院長來提醒一件事情。租屋是什麼意思?其實一樣就會回到資本市場的問題。今天你補貼民眾去租屋,他的確解決他短期的問題啊。但他的房子去從哪裡來?他去哪裡租?他不是就是要跟人家買的房子租嗎?"},{"start":696.803,"end":714.017,"text":"那你同時又推動了新清安政策,同時又推動了各項政策,那如果我是個有點資本的人,我當然去買房子,我繼續租給這些還買不起房子的人,因為反正他會拿政府的租屋補貼來補貼我房子的房貸,那我當然可以有失誤可能繼續買房。"},{"start":714.938,"end":730.059,"text":"所以我今天要講的是說如果今天真的政府推動是百萬社宅是由政府來興建或者民間投資興建我當然支持但是如果用成豬補貼的話我想這跟社宅的定義會有一定程度的落差院長你怎麼看"},{"start":731.318,"end":749.956,"text":"我想黃委員的這個觀察非常的正確但是我們在過去一段時間以來是要解決剛剛進入我們的那個就業市場的年輕人我們期待他租金補貼過了一段時間以後他可能家戶的這個經濟所的增加了就有可能去外面買一般的房子"},{"start":750.256,"end":750.436,"text":"新建社會住宅"},{"start":771.195,"end":799.945,"text":"那如果直接興建社會住宅對於企業要未來要禁用新人或者是留住這些人的話其實幫助會非常大那同時呢未來我們興建社會住宅會朝著所謂的小造陣也就是說呢社會住宅的興建不要把它放在什麼山邊或是水邊非常偏僻的地方它是有個很好的一個生活的這個機能在所以朝著這個小造陣來發展的話呢興建社會住宅那它的社會功能性對於幫忙年輕族群進入社會呢幫助就會非常大"},{"start":800.345,"end":817.342,"text":"所以我們未來會多元跟多管齊下來來鼓勵企業界甚至內政部以外的其他部會比如說國防部也可以或是其他的單位一起來興建這個社會住宅。好部長謝謝我聽到了這個關鍵就其實過去在之前的這個質詢我也提過相關的概念就是說"},{"start":818.663,"end":840.495,"text":"國現在的社會住宅基本上全都是由政府來興建的,就包含說住住中心也好,各地方政府也好,都是由政府出資出土地來興建,但是明明住宅法裡面就有相關的這個鼓勵民間興辦,包含提供什麼獎勵,當然細節我覺得不可以跟大家一起來思考,但是我覺得的確你應該把這個壓力轉嫁出去給資本市場,就大家賺了這麼多錢,"},{"start":841.676,"end":867.849,"text":"大家到底要怎麼樣回饋給社會我想如果能夠讓民間鼓勵民間新辦那讓多數的國民還有權利能夠住得起房子這個住他不一定是買啊他可以長期的租租的情勢嘛那再透過政府的政策他有機會在年輕的時候在還沒有這個穩定財政的時候他能夠有地方能去處所以如果政府的這個這個新辦社出來使用的新辦社出來能夠鼓勵民間新辦是未來"},{"start":869.189,"end":892.731,"text":"這個下一個階段社會住宅的新建的這個政策目標嗎?是,我想委員觀察得非常正確在住宅法第19條裡面確實有提到民間可以自行運用土地像譬如說新北市政府已經用BOT的方式在中和跟三重處理所謂的青年社會住宅所以未來台中市政府如果要朝著這方面來發展或是發揮的話我想我們站在內政部的立場一定會來鼓勵跟多多支持"},{"start":894.102,"end":922.567,"text":"院長謝謝委員的指教剛剛委員那個表格當中我們都看得出來我們在量還是不夠的量還提升但短期之內興建是一個方式但是用比較多的漁屋釋放出來讓他出租也是一個方式但是跟民間合作這個就是委員所提到我們未來要朝這個方向也需要一起來努力讓民間能夠來投入跟政府公司部門共同來合力我們才有辦法在一定的時間把量增加出來"},{"start":923.411,"end":930.394,"text":"好,謝謝院長、謝謝部長。我想這個居住增益的問題就提到了,除了打之外,更重要的是讓人民有地方住啊。"}]}},{"id":"154185","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154185","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb4172dd66b70915b54c867c7a3ae89c5402ac479e6c663ba9b34386f0e31270a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"16:18:42 - 16:49:47","影片長度":"00:31:05","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T16:18:42+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T16:49:47+08:00","duration":1865,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（16時18分）主席、各位立院同仁、各位今天與會的部會首長，大家午安。特別感謝今天給我這個機會，讓我有機會跟院長請益。請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：院長好。我今天回想到在10年前，我也曾經就站在您左邊這個位置，當年是面對立委的質詢，因為物換星移、角色互換，當年質詢我的委員，很多今天都成為您內閣的菁英閣員，雖然角色互換了，但是對國家安全的期許、社會福祉的維持、人民權益的維護，應該是理想不變、眼光不變。因此我覺得今天質詢的距離不會那麼遠。個人過去四十年的軍旅生涯中，大部分都是直來直往，有的時候也就是貫徹命令，所以我個人感受就是我可能是立法院裡用語言表達最不適宜、最不妥善的委員，所以我幾乎要用圖表來協助向院長請益。3月12號時，在前任陳院長期間，我們曾經提到了人才培養、軍事教育訓練以及國家安全戰略的法制化，另外還有一部分就是未來的醫療系統、科技的管理，當時我們在這裡面有得到共識，雖然現在的狀況產生了微微的變化，但是我個人覺得這個題目還是有延伸性。很高興顧部長現在已經主動到臺前，在這裡可以看到我們國家安全目標，這是所有國人必須要知道的事；國家安全方向，這是各部會都要掌握的事；至於國家安全手段，則是執行必須要落實的事。由於我們目前沒有法定的國家安全戰略文件，所以資源分配不平均，跨部會協商有其困難，策略的執行不容易，法制不夠周延，這些問題是二、三十年來一路累積下來的，不是針對性，但因為施政不容易同步，政策難以持續，因此各個層級任務編組過多，分工和權責上產生困難。","我們為什麼要提出國家安全？就是為了保護國家安全與維持兩岸和平穩定，行動的重心，在政治上是趨利避害，在和平對等前提下，堅守民主自由體制；在經濟上是互利互補，在公平正義條件下，促進經貿與投資成長；軍事上是強軍慎戰，在國家安全前提下，控管風險解決爭端；社會上是凝聚共識，在國防民生合一的前提下，強化基建、堅韌民心。手段如上圖所述，請參考。","下面用一個邏輯框架圖來顯示國家安全的重要性，這裡面的每一個元素，我們都連接到資料庫，這個未來可以跟院裡、國防部，乃至於國土安全辦公室提出建言。國家安全、社會堅韌、民心安定、經濟繁榮、軍事堅強、臺海和平，所有的連結都跟資安有關，實際上它的外圍包括了國家安全戰略的八個面向，即政治、外交、經濟、軍事，這涉及到兩岸關係；能源、社會、醫療、產業，是基建（基礎建設），所以我們要做管控分岐、風險控管、情勢控管、衝突控管。在基建部分是風險預應、災難管制、災害管制、災損管制。在這個環節內，我們政府的領導，總統、國安會、行政院、國防、外交、陸委會是環環相扣。現在總統提出了新的委員會，當然可能跟行政院的工作是有部分重疊，所以在這個組織架構下，將來希望建置的框架能有比較明確的定義，這樣在有限的資源分工下，是比較可以落實，希望不要重複浪費人力，但是成果我們是希望累積。","各位看一下，這個就是我們國家安全戰略發展的一個方式，這是一個methodology，圖的右側是國內情勢影響及趨勢，左側是全球環境影響及趨勢，左邊是動態比較大，右邊是國內的靜態，比較可控制，但是這兩項產生的因素都直接影響到我們的評估，也就是我們的幾個重要範疇，包括兩岸政策、外交政策、國防政策、經濟政策、能源政策、資安政策、衛環政策、人口政策，這些都是國安戰略裡面的環節，而不是純軍事的問題。","現在再把總統提出來的這幾個重點跟原先列舉動態、靜態相關的，我們把它的重疊領域性找出來。我們常說無縫接軌，但是無縫接軌實際上只有單線鐵路叫無縫接軌，如果有雙線交叉、有多重配置，必然會有重置性（redundancy），而不是單一的想法。最後我用美國的國家安全戰略來顯示我們跟美國學習了這麼多年，但是精髓並沒有完全掌握到，它的國家安全戰略裡面包括國家的利益目標，還有它的優先順序，如何去整合國家的實力，包括國家安全的方向，但是它下面的國防戰略就跟它有重疊性，包括戰略的背景因素，包括戰略的目的，如何完成目標與執行這個國家安全戰略的方法論、導引方式，最後是風險的控管。從國家安全戰略底下又有國防軍事戰略，也就是從上到下有它政策的指導，由下到上有實力的支撐，這上下之間要同步調。","現在來看一下美國每四年、每兩年都出的刊物，這都是公開的，當然還有機密本。我們在2021年出了四年期國防總檢討，2023年出了國防政策白皮書，因為目前沒有法定國家安全戰略的文件，也就是沒有明確的從上到下的政策指導。我在想顧部長日理萬機，可能還沒有時間去看這兩本刊物，我們的四年期國防總檢討一共48頁，中間講到國防戰略、軍事戰略1頁半；2023年的國防戰略、軍事戰略，在這本書裡面183頁，講到戰略一共3頁半，也就是說，整本的書多半都是美編的圖集、卡通示意圖，不夠落實。美國國會在2017年取消了四年期國防總檢討，我也面對過美國參加聽證的前政府官員，他說四年期總檢討雖然每四年發行一次，但每年開會大部分是由下屬單位上百人共同創作寫出這本東西來，因此它聚焦在美國國防產業、區域性的利益，但卻沒有上級的指導，不能支撐它的國家安全戰略，因此這個已經取消了。我們建議修法，把四年期國防總檢討取消，用國家安全戰略的法定文件來代替，做一個明確的指導，這樣才能夠環環相扣，最後對於我們的防衛計畫才有一個明確的指導。至於防衛計畫所產生的，過去我們常常說標準作業程序SOP，其實在軍事作戰指揮我們叫ROE（Rules of engagement），就是戰務令、接戰規定，這些東西國防部現在已經開始啟動，但是腳步要加快。","我們給各位看一張圖，這是東北亞整個大區域的圖，經過地理空間資訊系統的校正，這個是在總統就職之前，去年1月9號中共從西昌發射的火箭，因為它是用平面的圖集來顯示這個狀況，所以產生了一些錯誤的狀況，如果能夠用3D的圖示顯示發射位置、發射時間，就會發現它的衛星通過我們本島上空是600公里，那算太空，因此不形成威脅，但是那一次卻發布了國家級的防空警報，雖然事過境遷，但是國防部現在已經改進，這一次中共預備發射衛星可能是在明天發射，國防部已經明述說這個是走太空，並不影響我們的空域安全。","這個是兩年前裴洛西訪問造成中共威懾武嚇的實彈軍演圖，就是發射導彈飛越臺灣上空，但是當時我們並沒有用這個3D的圖像來解釋，所以只有左上角的平面顯示。我們根據的資料國防部沒有發布，是日本公布的，根據這個資料我們來模擬看它產生的彈道，實際上都是在太空平流層以上，這個是它的彈道拋物線。","我們希望將來國防部跟科技部，甚至太空中心有橫向聯繫，在衛星導控跟發射的軌跡部分能夠共同合作。用這種圖像來看，當時有3枚飛彈其實是飛越新竹科學園區，這個圖像目前我們國內尚沒有機會模擬展示，但是這個告訴我們一件事，就是用二維的圖跟三維的圖會有不同的判斷。","有關剛才前面黃仁委員提到聯合利劍，我的建議是我們要把格局放大，要有宏觀的大區塊，也有微觀的細節，要把它整合起來。我們看到的並不是上面那一塊，上面這一塊的圖是國防部發布的，我幫國防部的解讀是，它的巡邏區跟中共不同，表示我們國軍拒止中共的艦機在24浬之外，但是共軍的圖是畫到12浬，這表示我們國軍付出辛勞能夠守衛我們的疆土，但是一般的老百姓看不懂圖，所以圖要套疊、圖要校正。","同時，各位看到右邊的這個圖是臺灣及當時的氣象圖。我們陸軍仍然在用公元2000年的UTM座標圖、紙板圖，要把它接起來，用陸軍的圖來判斷利劍演習可能就不能涵蓋了，就看不到。利劍演習實際上我們用方法論來看，其實共軍是沒有消耗的，是沒有戰火的消耗戰，或者是沒有替代市場戰，美中角力造成它在國際孤立。它是用一個桶箍的方法，希望耗盡我們的民心士氣、降低我們的戰備妥善，所以我們要提高警惕，但是也不要過度擔憂。","方法論很重要，共同圖像更重要。上面這個圖就是顯示今天早上7點30分，我把共機擾臺的圖跡套到圖像上。我們一定要用圖像套疊，才能從不同的時間、不同的位置、不同的事件、不同的動態，最後研判出它不同的意圖作長官的判斷，而不是用單一圖像。未來在國土辦公室或者在國防部乃至於國安會，我建議設立這種模擬虛擬的戰情顯示，可以顯示不同的場景圖像，而不是開會時每人帶張紙做個簡報，這樣長官非常難收斂這種動態變化的情勢。","2月14日金門因為中共三無漁船違法越界，我們執法的過程中產生擦撞，這個問題還沒有解決。當時我跟前院長在報告的時候，我列舉了14項，但是因為狀況在變化，所以我們繼續修正，今天有18項。以這個法制的流程來講，因為現在我們很多的依據是兩岸人民關係條例，事實上太平島不在我們的領海基線劃定內，所有的外島都不是我們的領海基線劃定內，所以在執法的過程上，雙方的溝通用什麼條例來引述是很重要的。另外一個就是必須用標準的圖，有的是用商業的電子海圖，有的是紙本的海圖，它的校正不一，所以會產生各個部會拿出來的圖不一，就會有判斷上的落差。這個已經有18項了，還在發展中。","這個就是這一次共軍潛艦通過海峽，許多外面的媒體、名嘴、專家有各種的論述。其實臺灣海峽的水非常淺，尤其臺灣灘水深大概只有三、四十公尺，所以共軍的潛艦不管是核潛艦、傳統潛艦，如果要回原造船廠去修，一定是在海峽中線以西浮航。這張圖裡面包括海圖、海底圖，如果這個圖可以放大細看，你會看到中國大陸沿岸的離岸風機，它是海上航行的障礙，同樣我們在未來六年內，我們整個離岸風機數量會達到1,000個，所以在內政部督導的海圖也要把它描述出來，會避免海上形成航行安全的一個障礙，兩岸都一樣。它這個船實際上是浮航，那麼清晨5點被漁船發現，以當時金門的雷達看，4點鐘應該就發現它了，所以國軍是有保持偵測到，只是老百姓公布以後，外面就產生了很多的敘述。我在這邊提出的是說，不要看小區塊，要用整個、一個大區塊圖，包括細緻的圖、包括當時海底圖、岸上的地上圖、離岸風機、海上航行安全，用這個圖來做一個客觀的判斷。剛才是一張衛照圖，再套上南海的海圖，再套上我們航空圖，這都經過校正。","各位看這個航圖可以連結到海圖上面菲律賓的基線，是校正過的，這是所有南海人造島礁或是人工造島的島，根據比例，把它的標準位置顯示出來，比方今天的報紙講菲律賓在擴大興建中業島，在蓋機堡，中共當然是反彈，但中業島在1971年原來是我們的，因為防颱，國軍撤離，菲律賓占領了，現在已經超過50年了，是既成事實。目前在仁愛礁那邊，我個人的研究，菲律賓跟中共還是以海巡執法，不會變成真正的軍事衝突，但其中有一個重點就是黃岩島，黃岩島是我們中華民國臨海法裡面標註的，但是外交部的立場要向菲方表示，這個主權在論述上是不讓，但是在真正的海上執法過程中間，很多還是可以探討，但是這個要強調，因為這是我們內政部公布的，在左上角的領海法裡面，黃岩島是我們的領海。","用這張圖來顯示一下，如果我們建立一個虛擬的戰情室，不管是在國防部，不管是在行政院國土安全辦公室或者在國安會，你可以透過資料庫，我們現在已經建立這個資料檔，所以你可以看到裡面不同的圖像，各個顯示出來是動態，繼續做動態的。要向大家報告，因為我們立法院的電腦跑不動我這個動態的，要用電競的電腦。這個是模擬的彈道，這個是犯臺的虛擬演習，中間就是剛才我們行政院跟國安會大家互動的關係。這個是顯示我們所有全臺的超高壓配電所，如果伺服器故障了，在哪個位置、哪一個電塔、哪一個是345千伏、哪個是161千伏，全部都可以做出來，那麼這樣子，國土安全辦公室就不是打電話去協調。我們可以顯示醫院的病床有多少、災害發生的位置在哪裡、當時的天氣，甚至演習的兵力，用這個方向顯示出來，包括潛艦在水面航行，上面是共機擾臺的時候，我們國防部展示把它驅離的位置，再套上中共顯示的位置，證明國軍把它驅離在24浬，並沒有讓它進到12浬，用這個共同圖像可以提供所有做決策的高階政策下達人一個客觀的判斷，它是一個工具，是一個方法論，而不要用傳統的簡報圖，每人三張紙，這個時候高階長官是很難收斂的。","那麼現在就要談到教育了，曾國藩曾經講過「中興以人才為本」，今天很多年輕人也許不知道曾國藩是誰了，但見賢思齊，有為者亦若是，我相信年輕人都知道。現在見賢思齊的對象可能不是學者，可能不是政治人物，而是高科技，可能是台積電的張忠謀，可能是黃仁勳，優秀的年輕人只要是理工的，統統都到竹科去了。我們要看一下兩岸教育的投資，這個是我們國內前七大和大陸的前七大，清華大學最高，它是臺大的5倍，每人每年平均的投資費，南京大學是最低的，它也是海洋大學的4.03倍，所以這給我們一個警訊，大陸在人才培養上跟你競爭高科技，但是它投資在教育上面。再來，這是國內的前七大和我們國軍學校的軍事教育再做個比較，臺大是我們軍事院校的2.8倍，海大是最低的，也是我們的1.3倍，但我提醒部長一個注意點，根據美國國防安全合作局公布的資料，過去十年來我們的軍售投資（Foreign Military Sale，FMS）總共是255億美元，換算成臺幣，十年每年是770億投資在軍售，但是我們的軍事教育只有二十餘億元。","如果不加速增加教育的投資，提升軍校的素質，我們很難有效運用這些先進的武器做有效的管理，第一個，所有武器裝備的操作手冊、維保手冊、作戰準則教範全部是英文版。AIT的處長要調回國了，他曾經講過我們基層官兵的英文素質、閱讀能力要趕快提升，因為越先進的武器、越好的裝備，你不能夠瞭解它的操作手冊，不瞭解它的準則教範。所以我們將來軍售的投資不僅止於買武器裝備，人才培養大幅提升，料配件要同步到位，這是非常重要的。尤其是現在中科院的人數，竹科都把我們的人吸走了，年輕的不進來，唯一的可靠來源是理工學院，理工學院也是唯一可以進到中科院從基層幹起的。這個提出來給部長參考，教育部有高等教育深耕計畫，今年編列一百多億，但是國軍在裡面沒有額度。104年到106年，我曾經向當時的教育部長蔣偉寧爭取到給國防醫學院的經費，因此在當年的八仙粉塵爆699個燒燙傷，國軍收容了65個，零傷亡，為什麼？我們當時的那個經費投資在燒燙傷。當國家有任何意外災難，國軍的醫院是全部投入，八仙塵爆的當天晚上，我們動員了300個醫生、護士等緊急人員，把他護送到醫院實施搶救、急救，住院一年，零傷亡，沒有走一個，這個投資是值得的。","因此，我建議教育部在深耕計畫裡面不應該排除國軍，因為我們每年都受到它的教學評鑑、師資評鑑，我們用的是同一個標準的教育體制，國軍不應該排除在外。至於我們國軍教育本身，建請部長要考慮趕快提升教育經費，因為老師的額度受限於編制，但是我們可以請好手、請高手，用特殊的講座方式把這個提升，將來的課程一定要包括國際法、武裝衝突法，甚至戰俘人道精神都要納入授課，這是一個大幅提升國軍教育、提升人才素質的好機會。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們有兩個學校，包括國防醫學院和理工大學已經在深耕計畫裡面，我請部長再說明一下。"],["陳委員永康：對，我瞭解，但是這個是國防部的錢，我們建議由教育部來cover，因為深耕計畫教育部可以統一申請，國防部自己撥給它就行了，隨便它叫什麼計畫，這個是可以區隔的，當然我們也肯定部長同意給它，但是這個額度是不夠的，也就是一年花了770億美元的臺幣買裝備，這邊是寫8所，其實是13所軍事院校，整個經費就這麼多，所以要考慮未來有卓越的領導人才接受先進的武器系統，要能夠管理，要能夠有宏觀、有世界觀，並能夠運用科技，這需要投資、培養。","最後一個，我要做一個解釋，中山科學院的基礎從民國56年成立，在1980年代，由李國鼎先生推薦，郝柏村前院長從美國邀請了一位黃孝宗博士，他是美國NASA太空總署太空計畫火箭推進的主持人，做了兩任主持人回國，為中科院奠定了所有的基礎。今天我們有6個所、5個中心，並擁有關鍵技術科研的21個案，全部是矩陣式管理，並且用團隊進行研發，上面講的、我們用的其實就是美國太空總署運用的管理方法，所以現在民間有很多方法，建議我們可以做技術切割，我們叫TRL，技術備便水準1到6由民間來做，中科院做7以上。我向大家報告，如果沒有重複性，而是刀切豆腐的，由民間發展出來了，他說我賣給國外、我跟別人來了，你接都接不下去。","我個人也在國外實驗室做過兩年，瞭解專案管理技術一定有它的重複性，這裡面沒有所謂的無縫接軌，而且研發過程中間必然有失敗。DARPA很多的計畫做出來可能束之高閣，三年後發現別人跟上了，我可以拿出來用，所以研發計畫應該允許有失敗，而不是零失敗，在這個層級水平的分割上面，一定要有重製性。過去我在中科院擔任董事也提供了建言，尤其部長是法律專家，很多跟國外廠商簽約的過程中，我們希望我們的法遵、法制人員從開始就要介入。今天受限於時間，我的問詢到這邊，我要請一下院長做您對於今天看法的陳復。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝陳委員。從陳委員2月1號到立法院、到國會來以後，在許多關鍵時刻都聽聞到委員的一些看法，我表示非常地敬佩，尤其今天從剛剛看到的3D圖像，給我們一個相當大的收穫。我想委員今天無非是要告訴政府要有所準備，而且要告訴人民不懼不憂，政府如果準備得好，我們有能力來做好這些事情。請國防部來看一下，剛剛委員所呈現的整個介紹過程，國防部是不是也能夠有這樣的能力，或是能比這樣更好，表示政府的準備才是充分的，非常感謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：部長，您這邊呢？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想剛剛委員指教很多，我上次去拜訪委員的時候，委員也有展示類似這樣的動態戰情顯示，然後給我們看，我覺得國防部回去確實要好好研究一下，3維這種顯示方式，我們應該會來研究一下；而您剛提到陸軍的UTM部分，現在也應該在進行當中，要將地圖數位化，要採數位地圖，這個應該沒有問題。另外，有關軍事院校的教育行政預算，我們現在是列入作業維持費裡面，今年我們也打算要增加，大概114年的預算需求會到25億，希望能夠超過113年預算的7,000萬元，我們規劃向行政院爭取政府預算。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、國防部的備詢。","報告院會，外交及國防組之質詢已詢答完畢，我們謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。現在作以下決定：下次會議進行經濟組之質詢。","報告院會，現在我們繼續處理復議案。本院民進黨黨團針對第18次會議報告事項第6案、15案、16案之決定提出復議，請公決案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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那麼這裡面的每一個元素我們都連結到資料庫。 這個未來可以跟我們的院理跟國防部乃至於這個國土安全辦公室我們都可以提出建言。國家安全社會堅韌民心安定經濟繁榮軍事堅強太海和平"},{"start":250.336,"end":278.553,"text":"他所有的連結都跟治安有關但實際上他的外圍包括了就是國家安全戰略的八個面向政治外交經濟軍事這涉及到兩岸的關係能源社會醫療產業他是基建基礎建設所以我們要做管控分歧做風險控管做情勢的控管做衝突的控管"},{"start":279.955,"end":297.176,"text":"在基建部分是風險、禦印、災難管制、災害管制、災損管制。 在這個環節內,我們政府的領導、總統、國安會、行政院、國防外交、陸委會是環環相扣。"},{"start":299.543,"end":323.396,"text":"現在的總統提出了新的委員會當然可能是跟我們部分行政院的工作是有部分重疊所以他這個組織架構下將來希望在建制的框架下比較有明確的定義這樣在有限的資源分工下是比較可以落實希望不要重複浪費人力但是成果我們是希望累積"},{"start":326.067,"end":337.978,"text":"各位看一下這個就是我們國家安全戰略發展的一個方式這是一個methodology在圖的右側是國內情勢影響及趨勢"},{"start":339.895,"end":356.155,"text":"在左側是全球環境影響及趨勢,左邊是動態比較大,右邊是國內的靜態比較可控制,但是這兩項產生的因素都直接影響到我們的評估,也就是我們的幾個重要"},{"start":357.776,"end":357.996,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":381.94,"end":409.827,"text":"理想的過程常常我們常說無縫接軌但是無縫接軌實際上只有單線鐵路叫無縫接軌如果有雙線交叉有多重配置必然會有重置性Redundancy而不是單一的想法那最後我用美國的國家安全戰略來顯示我們跟美國學習了這麼多年但是精髓啊並沒有完全掌握到"},{"start":410.862,"end":434.237,"text":"他的國家安全戰略里面包括了國家的利益目標還有他的優先順序那麼如何去整合國家的實力包括國家安全的方向但是他下面的國防戰略就跟他有重疊性包括戰略的背景因素包括戰略的目的如何完成目標"},{"start":435.526,"end":435.786,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":460.967,"end":482.905,"text":"每四年每兩年都出的刊物這都是公開的當然還有機密本我們在2021年出了我們的四年期國防總檢討那麼2023年出了我們的國防政策白皮書左側因為目前"},{"start":484.192,"end":491.037,"text":"沒有法定國家安全戰略的文件,也就是沒有明確的從上到下的政策指導。我在想這個顧部長日理萬機可能還沒有時間去看這兩本刊物。 這個我們的四年期國防總檢討一共48頁,中間講到"},{"start":514.924,"end":539.096,"text":"國防戰略軍事戰略一頁半2023年的這個國防戰略軍事戰略在這本書裡面183頁講到戰略一共三頁半也就是說整本的書啊多半都是這個美編的圖集卡通示意圖"},{"start":541.869,"end":567.729,"text":"美國國會在2017年取消了四年期國防總檢討。我也面對過美國參加聽證的前政府官員。他說因為四年期總檢,雖然每四年發行一次,但每年開會,大部分是由下屬單位上百人共同創作,寫出這本東西來。因此他聚焦在美國國防產業區域性的利益。"},{"start":569.056,"end":569.256,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":596.335,"end":620.431,"text":"過去我們常常說標準作業程序SOP其實在軍事作戰指揮我們叫ROE就是戰務令接戰規定這些東西國防部現在已經開始啟動但是呢腳步要加快我們給各位看一張這個圖這是一個東北亞整個大區域的圖經過異地空間資訊系統的校正"},{"start":628.145,"end":640.393,"text":"這個是在總統就職之前去年的1月9號中共發射的火箭從西艙但是因為它是用平面的突擊來顯示這個狀況那麼產生了一些錯誤的狀況"},{"start":647.654,"end":675.331,"text":"如果能夠用3D的圖示顯示發射位置發射時間就發現它的衛星通過我們本島上空是600公里那算太空因此不形成威脅但是那一次啊發布了國家級的防空警報這個事過境遷但是國防部現在已經改進在這一次中共預備發射衛星可能是明天發射那麼國防部已經明速說這個是走太空並不影響我們的空域安全"},{"start":678.784,"end":707.41,"text":"這個是兩年前培洛西訪問造成中共一個威者武嚇的實彈軍演就是發射導彈飛越台灣上空但是當時我們並沒有用這個3D的圖像來做解釋所以只有左上角的那個平面顯示我們根據的資料國防部沒有發布是日本公佈的所以根據這個資料我們來模擬看它產生的彈道實際上都是在太空平流層以上"},{"start":712.537,"end":712.678,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":719.326,"end":719.526,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":747.332,"end":764.47,"text":"有關剛才前面黃榮委員提到聯合立見我的建議是我們要把格局放大要有宏觀的大區塊也有圍觀的細節要把它整合起來所以我們看到並不是上面那塊上面這塊的圖是國防部發布的"},{"start":765.463,"end":789.423,"text":"我幫國防部的解讀是說他的巡邏區跟中共的不同 這個表示我們國軍拒止中共的艦機在24里之外但是共軍的圖是劃到12里 這表示我們國軍的付出辛勞是能夠守衛我們的疆土但是這個一般的老百姓看不懂圖 所以圖要套疊圖要校正"},{"start":790.443,"end":815.464,"text":"同時各位看到右邊的這個圖是臺灣以及當時的氣象圖我們陸軍仍然在用公元2000年的UTM坐標圖紙板圖要把它接起來那用陸軍的圖來判斷利劍演習可能就不能涵蓋就看不到所以利劍演習實際上我們用方法論其實共軍是沒有消耗的沒有戰火的消耗戰"},{"start":816.527,"end":816.707,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康"},{"start":834.793,"end":854.327,"text":"上面這個圖就是顯示這是今天早上7點30分我把共機擾台的圖機套到圖像上我們一定要用圖像套疊才能把不同的時間不同的位置不同的事件不同的動態最後研派出它不同的意圖"},{"start":855.188,"end":855.348,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":879.521,"end":894.873,"text":"2月14日這個金門因為中共三無遺傳違法越界至於我們執法的過程中產生差狀那麼這個問題還沒有解決當時我跟前院長在報告的時候我是列舉了這個14項"},{"start":896.454,"end":924.606,"text":"但是因為在狀況在變化所以我們繼續修正今天有18項這個法制的流程最後就是因為現在我們很多的依據是兩岸人民關係條例那麼事實上在太平島不在我們的領海基線化內所有的外島都不是我們的領海基線化定內所以在執法的過程上雙方的溝通用什麼條例來引述是很重要另外一個就是必須用標準的圖"},{"start":925.826,"end":932.891,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":942.588,"end":971.159,"text":"共軍潛艦通過海峽那有許多的外面的媒體名嘴專家有各種的論述其實臺灣海峽的水非常淺尤其是在臺灣灘水深大概只有三四十公尺所以共軍的潛艦不管何潛艦傳統潛艦如果要回他的原造船船去修他一定是在海峽中線以西浮航那麼這張圖裡面包括海圖海底圖"},{"start":972.398,"end":972.598,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":1002.709,"end":1028.118,"text":"以當時的金門的雷達看,4點鐘就應該發現它了。 所以國軍是有保持偵測到,只是老百姓公佈了以後,外面就產生了很多的敘述。我在這邊提出的是說不要看小區塊,要用整個一個大區塊圖,包括細緻的圖,包括當時海底圖,岸上的地障圖,離岸風機,海上航行安全,用這個圖來做一個客觀的判斷。"},{"start":1032.609,"end":1048.419,"text":"剛才是一張衛照圖在套上南海的海圖在套上我們航空圖這都經過校正各位看這個航圖可以連接到海圖上面的菲律賓的基線是校正過的"},{"start":1050.692,"end":1074.594,"text":"這是所有南海人造島礁或是人工造島的島根據比例把它的標準位置把它顯示出來比方講今天的報紙講菲律賓在擴大新建中葉島在蓋機堡那中共當然是反彈但中葉島在1971年原來是我們的因為防台國軍撤離菲律賓佔領現在已經超過50年了既成事實"},{"start":1077.298,"end":1101.591,"text":"目前在仁愛礁那邊我個人的研究菲律賓跟中共還是以海巡執法不會變成真正的軍事衝突但其中有一個重點就是黃岩島黃岩島是我們中華民國領海法裡面標註的但是這個外交部的立場要向非方表示"},{"start":1102.827,"end":1103.648,"text":"用這張圖來顯示一下"},{"start":1125.66,"end":1143.331,"text":"如果我們建立一個虛擬的戰情室﹖不管是在國防部﹖不管是在行政院﹖國土安全辦公室或是在國安會﹖你可以透過資料庫﹖我們現在已經建立這個資料檔﹖所以你可以看到不同的﹖裡面的圖像各個顯示出來﹖動態﹖繼續做動態的﹖"},{"start":1155.333,"end":1182.704,"text":"要向大家報告是因為我們立法院的電腦跑不動我這個動態的要用電競的電腦這個是模擬的彈道這個是犯台的虛擬演習中間就是剛才我們行政院跟國安會大家互動的關係這個顯示是我們所有全台的超高壓配電所"},{"start":1183.368,"end":1184.568,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康"},{"start":1204.991,"end":1205.351,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康"},{"start":1232.608,"end":1247.421,"text":"高階政策下達人一個客觀的判斷他是一個工具是一個方法論不要用傳統的簡報圖每人三張紙這個時候高階長官是很難收斂的那麼現在就要談到教育了這個"},{"start":1254.141,"end":1262.434,"text":"曾國藩曾經講過忠心以文才為本,但今天很多年輕人也許不知道曾國藩是誰了。"},{"start":1263.376,"end":1265.176,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚陳永康"},{"start":1292.177,"end":1315.395,"text":"這是我們國內前七大這是大陸的前七大清華大學最高它是臺大的五倍每人每年平均的投資費南京大學是最低的它也是海洋大學的4.03倍所以這個給我們一個警訊就是說"},{"start":1316.63,"end":1339.876,"text":"大陸在人才培養上他跟你競爭他高科技但是他投資在教育上面。 這個是國內的七大在跟我們國軍的學校軍事教育再做個比較。 台大是我們軍事院校的2.8倍。 海大是最低的也是我們的1.3倍。"},{"start":1341.578,"end":1369.474,"text":"但這邊我提請部長一個注意點就是根據美國國防安和局安全合作局他公布的資料過去10年來我們的軍售軍售投資就是Foreign military saleFMS總共是255億美元換算成台幣每年10年每年是770億投資在軍售但是我們的軍事教育"},{"start":1371.82,"end":1393.112,"text":"只有20餘億元,如果不加速增加教育的投資,提升軍校的數值,我們是很難有效運用這些先進的武器做成有效的管理。第一個,所有武器裝備,它的操作手冊,維保手冊,作戰準則教範,全部是英文版。"},{"start":1394.671,"end":1422.557,"text":"AIT的處長要調回國了,他曾經講說我們基層官兵的英文數字閱讀能力要趕快提升越先進的武器越好的裝備你不能夠了解它的操作手冊不了解它的準則教範所以我們將來軍售的投資不僅只於買武器裝備人才培養大幅提升"},{"start":1423.643,"end":1423.863,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":1451.085,"end":1462.235,"text":"教育部有高等教育深耕計劃,今年編了100多億,但是國軍沒有在裡面有這個額度。在104年到106年,我當時曾經向當時的教育部長江偉寧爭取到給國防醫學院的這個經費,因此在當年的"},{"start":1474.192,"end":1484.737,"text":"八仙城報、粉城報、699個燒燙商．國軍收容了65個臨傷亡。．為什麼．我們當時在那個經費投資在燒燙商。．那麼今天國家有任何意外災難．國軍的意願是全部投入。．當時燒燙商、八仙城報的當天晚上．我們動員了300個醫生、護士、緊急人員．"},{"start":1503.746,"end":1504.187,"text":"：陳永康：陳永康"},{"start":1518.049,"end":1543.365,"text":"因為我們每年都收到他的教學評鑑、師資評鑑。 我們用的是同一個標準的教育體制,國軍不應該排除在外。 那至於我們國軍教育本身, 建請部長要考慮趕快提升教育經費。 因為老師的額度受限於編制,但是我們可以請好手、請高手,用特殊的講座方式。"},{"start":1544.48,"end":1548.642,"text":"報告委員我們有兩個學校包括國防醫學院跟理工大學已經在深耕計畫裏面我請部長再說明一下對我了解但是這個是國防部的錢"},{"start":1568.803,"end":1569.103,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":1596.929,"end":1605.591,"text":"（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。（6月25日（6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":1624.707,"end":1650.018,"text":"李國鼎先生推薦（好不春前院長從美國邀請了一個黃孝宗博士（他是美國NASA太空總署（太空計畫火箭推進的主持人（做了兩個主持人回國（把中科院奠定了所有的基礎（那麼今天我們有6個所（5個中心並擁有關鍵技術科研的21個案（全部是據證式的管理（"},{"start":1651.288,"end":1651.668,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康"},{"start":1676.957,"end":1677.478,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":1695.609,"end":1696.63,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康﹚"},{"start":1713.37,"end":1737.475,"text":"我曾經在中科院擔任董事也提供了建言,尤其是部長是法律的專家,很多的跟國外廠商的簽約的過程中間,我們希望我們的法尊法治人員從開始就要介入。今天設限於時間有限,我的問詢到這邊,我要請一下院長做一些您對今天看法的陳复。"},{"start":1738.7,"end":1755.18,"text":"非常謝謝陳委員。其實從陳委員21日到立法院到國會來以後在許多關鍵的時刻都聽不到委員的一些看法我就表示非常的敬佩尤其今天看到剛剛的3D的圖像我覺得那個給我們是一個相當大的一個"},{"start":1756.172,"end":1756.192,"text":"市長﹗"},{"start":1785.073,"end":1793.426,"text":"部長您這邊跟委員報告我想剛剛委員指教很多我上次去拜訪委員的時候委員也有展示有"},{"start":1794.042,"end":1794.542,"text":"﹚陳永康﹚陳永康"},{"start":1820.947,"end":1823.089,"text":"（6月25日．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":1856.731,"end":1857.613,"text":"謝謝陳永康委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長國防部的備詢。"}]}},{"id":"154184","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb3ce47a42ec97f7334c867c7a3ae89c5402ac479e6c663ba98184ff050374ff9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"16:02:33 - 16:18:31","影片長度":"00:15:58","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T16:02:33+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T16:18:31+08:00","duration":958,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":364,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（16時3分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長好，賴清德總統昨天已經表明，針對藍白國會擴權的惡法，會向憲法法庭聲請釋憲及暫時處分，以守護國家的憲政體系，也深化臺灣的民主，守護人民的權利。其實不只總統，行政院還有立法院的民進黨黨團、監察院也都有表態要聲請釋憲，然而我想在違憲疑慮都還沒有獲得釐清之前，民眾黨的黃國昌宣稱要立刻啟動國會聽證調查，請問院長，你怎麼看民眾黨這樣的作為？那依行政院的立場，要對在野黨有什麼樣的呼籲？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，就是因為包括總統府、行政院跟監察院都提出了對這個法案違憲的一些疑慮，接下來包括立法院民進黨黨團，所以，我們想應該在維持憲政秩序穩定的狀態底下，讓大法官的憲法法庭作最後裁定之後，這個法到底可行不可行、違憲不違憲，那時候才會確定下來。在此之前，我認為所有的憲政機關都應該以穩定憲政為前提、為優先，應該按捺不動，不要去碰觸將來可能違憲的事情，否則任何一個國人、任何一個民意代表牽涉到違憲的情況之下，他的責任是沒有辦法去比擬的。"],["林委員宜瑾：瞭解。"],["卓院長榮泰：那行政院未來會依照憲政機關的角色跟我們應該有的職責，我們會研擬，但今天這個法案昨天總統剛剛簽過，還沒有正式生效，我們必須生效之後才有下一步的動作。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。","再來，要跟院長討論，中國最近說要嚴懲臺獨分子，不但可以進行缺席審判，最重還可以判到死刑。我想在臺灣每個人都是臺獨分子，每個人也可以都不是臺獨分子，怎麼說呢？首先，只要生活在臺灣，我想每一個人每一天都對臺灣主權獨立的事實做出肯定。舉例而言，我們國人5月才剛繳完稅，如果按照中國的標準，這無非是出資贊助臺灣獨立武裝組織。再來，臺灣獨立本來就是一個事實，就像美國獨立一樣，如果有人說要嚴懲美國的獨立分子，我想就要坐時光機飛到1776年。我想請教卓院長的是，依據中國的標準，你覺得你自己背了幾條死罪，然後對於中國的放話，你有什麼樣的回應？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它對我們沒有司法管轄權，所以我不認為我背任何死罪，我活著為臺灣就好了……"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以一個不民主而且法制不完備的政權，透過它的法制不完備來侵犯臺灣的民主，這是天大的笑話！"],["林委員宜瑾：真的！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說行政院的立場是保護在國內的國民，也希望我們去到國外的人，因為你有這張護照，你去到當地國，你可以進出，當地國政府必須保障你的人身自由，但是去到大陸，不管你做任何的訪問或是往來，你必須清楚知道有沒有能力保護你自己，因為它現在對我們是非常消極的，但是手段是非常惡毒的，你必須能夠保護自己，否則我們真的勸全國的國人應該三思而後行。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，因為就如同您說的，中國無權恣意對我國國民進行所謂的制裁，可是一旦踏入中國，或者踏入跟中國友好而且簽有司法引渡條約的國家，我想我們就不可不慎。","接下來要跟院長討論的就是立委赴中納管的問題，也就是沈伯洋委員首先提出的，本席和多位民進黨委員也有後續提出，像本席的案子，今天又在國民黨與民眾黨聯手之下在程序委員會被封殺了，這個案子就是兩岸人民關係條例的修正案。","在我們的提案中有規範，與國家秘密、國家安全相關的人員如果要前往中國，就必須要行前申請，經過審查，而且在中國如果跟黨政軍相關人員有接觸，還要申報他接觸的狀況、交往的情形及內容。當然我們很清楚知道，我們的提案是以保護臺灣國家安全的立場為出發點，在中國無所不用其極地打壓臺灣主權與國人安全的狀態之下，為了維護國人的安全，立委及牽涉國家秘密的人員赴中納管的規範，我覺得就相當的重要。實際上，我國立委赴中交流有極高的機率是因為民選公職的身分會涉及臺獨，就像中國現在宣示的這種處罰條款，最終會羅織很多莫名的罪狀，會送辦，所以請問院長，如果在這樣的狀況之下，我國欠缺對立委赴中納管的規範，是不是會造成立委人身安全的疑慮？如果真的有立委在中國遭到羅織罪狀的時候，肯定會進一步升高臺灣與中國兩國的衝突，院長，你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，也許換一個角度來看，立委是國會議員，也是國家重要的政治工作者，他去到一個我們認為不是安全的地方，如果能夠讓政府提早知道，或是國會裡面有一套自我管理的機制，我們也會比較有能力知道他的行蹤，能夠預先知道他的危險性，從這個角度來看，是不是可以支持這個，而且這不是一種管理的方式……"],["林委員宜瑾：是，是保護。"],["卓院長榮泰：這只是讓大家掌握更多的國家資源，以及重要人士進出國門的狀態，如果他去到一些安全的國家，我們甚至都不須要對他有任何的瞭解，但是去到特殊的地方、不安全的地方、對人身有威脅的地方，我想政府和人民都有這樣的義務來保障國家重要的資產。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。另外，跟院長說明，5月29日本席在內政委員會質詢立委赴中納管這個問題的時候，那時候梁文傑副主委的回應是說，就陸委會的立場而言，前往中國需接受審查的人員，在現行兩岸人民關係條例裡面其實就有包括立法院的人員，但是長久以來，立法院都沒有按照兩岸人民關係條例所要求去提列那些前往中國的人員。梁副主委有強調，他說，針對立法院長期違規的這件事情，陸委會曾經行文立法院，立法院從來沒有回復。從監察院，到地方法院，到全國各機關人員，都會接受赴中的審查，可是唯獨立法院不遵守。","在這個質詢之後，陸委會梁副主委也進一步透過書面回答，他說，實務上，正副總統、除了立法院之外的四院院長、政務官、地方首長及其機關內所涉及國家安全利益跟機密業務的人員，其實都依兩岸人民關係條例第九條跟國家機密保護法第二十六條的相關規定，會提列名冊送交內政部移民署來做赴中列管，但立法院接觸機密的立法委員跟職員，迄今從來沒有提過相關的名冊。","根據兩岸人民關係條例，違反第九條第四項規定要處兩百萬以上一千萬以下的罰鍰，請問院長，對於立法院知法犯法的行為，開罰了嗎？該如何嚴格執法，讓立法院可以遵守這個規範？"],["卓院長榮泰：或許在過去的執行過程當中，我必須承認可能並沒有在這個重點上去做任何的處理，但是我是尊重大院裡面對未來修法的過程，但是還是希望要經過民主的討論、公開的討論。現在重要的人士去到中國大陸，我們都覺得對他的人身安全確實很擔心，我這兩天就很擔心王前院長，我希望他安全的回來，告訴我們將來如何保護自己的安全。如果這個是一個過程的話，那我們希望，能夠促進大家更有效的對自己人身安全的顧慮跟保障，這個才是重要的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，再來要跟院長談到中正紀念堂轉型的問題，利用國家資源強迫全民納稅紀念獨裁者，這件極度不合理的事情，我從大學時期就一路反對到現在，在教文委員會裡面，包括李永得部長、史哲部長及現在的李遠部長也都被我質詢過這一題，在院會我也跟蘇貞昌院長討論過，即促轉會提出任務總結報告後，各部會轉型正義工作的交接狀況。根據促轉會的總結報告，我進一步有在院會跟陳建仁院長討論過，在中正紀念堂轉型的過程中，有一件事情是此時此刻我們就可以做的，就是撤離三軍儀隊，又或者至少讓三軍儀隊離開堂體，改駐守在升旗臺那裡，把原先對獨裁者的崇拜，轉換成對國家的效忠。","6月11號顧部長回答邱志偉委員質詢的時候，您個人的看法有說，儀隊是可以移到自由廣場進行操練，也等於說回應了本席長期的倡議，不過今天想要進一步跟院長跟部長請教的是，第一、落實這項作為的時間？第二、上一次針對這項議題的詢答，卓院長也有提到，如果三軍儀隊駐守在忠烈祠，這樣代表的是我們對壯烈犧牲官兵的尊敬，造成的爭議就不會像駐防在中正紀念堂那麼大。換句話說，三軍儀隊為什麼駐防，駐防背後的意義跟論述非常的重要，所以我們現在回頭來請教，三軍儀隊如果真的移往所謂的自由廣場，它代表的意義是什麼？國防部賦予它操練的意義是什麼？是觀光嗎？部長先回答。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，有關三軍儀隊要如何進行操演現在是文化部在主管，我們國防部跟文化部應該已經經過兩、三次的協調，有將我們的主張傳達給文化部，也就是說，將三軍儀隊從……"],["林委員宜瑾：離開堂體。"],["顧部長立雄：移到自由廣場來進行操演，大概已經協調的差不多，到底什麼時候來執行這件事情，可能最後要由文化部做最後的拍板。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以是文化部主導嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們國防部是完全配合。"],["林委員宜瑾：國防部完全配合文化部，所以是文化部在規劃？"],["顧部長立雄：就把三軍儀隊的操演移到自由廣場。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。院長，拜託，時間不要再拖了，我期待下一個會期的質詢就不要再質詢這個議題了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們都應該承認中正紀念堂的定義跟它的意義，社會上還是存在不同的看法，現在國防部跟文化部就是在找尋一個大家最能夠接受、共識最高的方式，同樣表達我們對國家過去歷史的一個認知，但是也讓更多的民眾可以在更寬廣的地方看得到這種儀隊的表演，代表國家的一種軍隊文化。"],["林委員宜瑾：對國家的效忠，對，沒錯！假設有共識的話，拜託這件事情要儘速處理。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後要跟院長探討五一勞動節全國一致性放假的議題。院長，其實這個議題本席追了很久，我在2020選第一次立委的時候，就把這個議題放進我的政見裡面，當上立委之後，我就馬上跟當時的蘇貞昌院長提議這件事情，後來陳建仁院長上任後，我也一直跟他倡議。對於勞動節放假這個議題，本席不斷地跟中央真的是耳提面命，好不容易在今年陳建仁院長有說要好好地來研議，可能會有一些共識要作為全國性一致放假的狀況，他是說很快就會有答案，當然很遺憾，今年的五一還是沒看到放假，理由是時間太倉促，因為通常今年的假期都是去年6月30日前會公布今年的行事曆，表示明年的行事曆會在今年6月30日公布。所以我想請問院長的是，這件事情到底有沒有譜？就是明年五一勞動節全面放假這件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：確實如委員所說，明年的行事曆，現在在行政院裡面正在循一定的程序往上來處理，我們對於勞工的尊重跟理解，我們五一勞動節是勞工有放假，但是其他也有類似這樣的單一職業別或類別的假期是沒有放假的，這個我們從長來規劃，因為現在全國一年當中的放假日已經達到117天了，比過去又多了幾天，在這樣的情況底下，我們必須考慮到勞雇雙方的關係，還有整個社會其他層面的影響，但是現在既然這個案已經在院內裡面在處理，我們就用一種全新的感覺去說，這個到底對社會的好處是什麼……"],["林委員宜瑾：因為院長，其實這個假日對產業的衝擊最小，因為產業本來就放假，反而是軍公教不放假，假設是一個公立學校，老師、學生都要去上課，可是裡面的工友、裡面的廚工卻因為他們要上課而跟著要加班，他本來是應該要放假的，我們用公保、勞保來分，公保是不放假的，勞保是放假的，一個場所，我們政府機關也一樣，有很多是勞保，有很多是公保，所以放假很不一致。而假日對於家庭來說，就是所謂全家享天倫之樂的一個很好的規劃假期，所以這件事情，再請院長明年公布五一勞動節放假，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再繼續研究，謝謝委員指教。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來登記第5號王定宇委員的質詢改書面質詢。"],["委員王定宇書面質詢：","質詢提綱：","一、中國快艇長驅直入淡水河口，如何亡羊補牢？","二、陸軍裝訓部「坑子口訓場整建案」進度？","三、我漁民陸續目擊中國094核潛艦等共艦現身臺灣海峽","四、國防部「漢光40號」實兵操演，今年與往年不同之處？","五、拜登再度表態不排除動用武力保衛臺灣，美國戰略模糊轉向？","六、中懲臺獨，我國人民於外國安全？","七、中國制裁臺灣人的思想自由？建請國安單位應研擬反制措施","八、中國利用統戰活動蒐集我國民個資與生物資料之目的？","九、嚴查中國官媒新華社來臺製播帶狀政論節目乙事","（註：一至四為國防部主管業務、五至六為外交部主管業務、七至九為國安局主管業務）","一、中國快艇長驅直入淡水河口，如何亡羊補牢？","2024年6月9日一艘中國籍快艇「鴻津號」駛入淡水河，經雷達站隊員在9日上午9時44分，於6海浬處偵測到該艘快艇，竟誤判是我國籍漁船準備入港，因此沒有向上通報並攔截圍捕，當日9時52分僅通知守望哨隊員監控該船，10時15分再次通報淡二守望哨，直到10時20分，八里守望哨才確認非我國籍船，該快艇於10時25分擦撞我國八里淡水交通渡船，10時54分安檢所才前往淡水漁人碼頭查處，將中國籍男子逮捕送辦。","2024年6月13日國防部召開記者會，海軍司令部中將參謀長邱俊榮表示海上事務均由海軍和海巡共同聯繫應處，然而海上目標掌握有難度，海軍的岸置雷達其實無法發現那麼小的快艇。國防部應就此事件積極研討如何補強我方雷達偵蒐極限、及未來類似樣態的標準處理程序，並加強與海巡署的聯合監偵、資訊通報及聯繫作業。","二、陸軍裝訓部「坑子口訓場整建案」進度？","2024年3月25日，立法院外交及國防委員會召集委員王定宇率隊考察陸軍裝訓部坑子口訓練場，行程中聽取簡報、瞭解各項設施預算需求及預期完工年份、研討各項戰術、射擊課目訓練需求。","其中固定靶臺、高架管線地下化工程、機槍射擊陣地、訓場道路等4工項預計2027年至2031年執行，本席建請國防部研議此4工項應併入第一期執行，以利訓練科目之完整並在最短的時間內達成新式裝備訓練需求。","三、我漁民陸續目擊中國094核潛艦等共艦現身臺灣海峽","2024年6月18日我國澎湖漁民清晨出海捕撈小管，在海上作業時目擊中國「晉級」094型飛彈核潛艦浮於海面，6月20日又有我國漁民在距離澎湖花嶼西南約40海裡左右的「澎湖南淺」漁場，發現中國海軍舷號153的052C型飛彈驅逐艦「西安艦」。","根據2019年1月15日國防部核定並實施的「中華民國籍漁船目標通傳報暨獎勵作法」，凡本國籍漁船在外海作業或航行期間，發現外國船艦後立即拍攝照片，並通報目標位置、舷號、艦型，只要不重複、偽冒通報，協助海軍完成不明目標辨識，可依目標傳報類型來核發獎勵金。依據該辦法，距離臺灣本島24海浬內，發現中國軍艦可領3萬元、中國公務船舶2萬元，他國籍軍用艦船、公務及科研船舶都是2萬元。若是在24海浬外，發現中國及其他國籍軍用艦船、公務船、科研船舶，則可領取1萬元。根據國防部提供本席最新資料顯示，至2019年獎勵辦法實施起，2022年開始通報數驟降，請國防部說明相關原因，另本席建請國防部研議是否提高獎金額度、放寬通報目標限制、放寬獎勵對象等精進措施。","四、國防部「漢光40號」實兵操演，今年與往年不同之處？","2024年7月22日至26日國防部將舉行「漢光40號」實兵操演，根據媒體報導，今年漢光演習驗證「去中心化」指管是這次漢光演習重點之一，主要是驗證聯兵旅層級以下部隊的應變戰力，各級指揮部及執行操演任務的基層營連長幹部可視部隊任務狀況，下達狀況演練的指令。除此之外，夜間訓練亦為今年重點，並取消由三軍統帥親自視導的大型火力展示項目，轉而貼近戰場的實況。在不涉及機敏的前提下，請國防部簡述今年漢光實兵操演與往年最大不同之處為何，及與往年不同的原因為何。","五、拜登再度表態不排除動用武力保衛臺灣，美國戰略模糊轉向？","美國總統拜登（Joe Biden）日前接受「時代雜誌」（TIME）專訪時表示，「若中國試圖片面改變現狀，美方不會不保護（defend）臺灣，因此美方也持續提供臺灣能力以及與區域盟邦協商」；此外，拜登總統並表示，如果中國侵臺，「不會排除動用美國武力（Not ruling out using US military force）」。","自拜登出任美國總統以來，已數度公開表態，若中國侵犯臺灣，美國部隊將會出面防衛臺灣，此是否代表美國對臺之戰略模糊政策的轉變？則此又會對印太區域安全如何造成影響？","六、中國推懲治「臺獨」頑固分子「意見」，我國人於國外恐遭殃？","中國國臺辦日前聯合多個部委召開有關「懲戒臺獨」的記者會，發布22條懲治「臺獨」頑固分子的「意見」，羅列犯分裂國家罪、煽動分裂國家罪的行為，最高可判處死刑，甚至終身追責，且可缺席審判。","儘管國際法上有政治良心犯不引渡等之原則，然中國相關人權及司法紀錄劣跡斑斑，近年不斷透過內國刑事管轄權的域外適用打壓反對意見，於實踐上更多有羅織入罪之例，國人前往與中國友好之國家恐有遭入罪引渡之風險。爰此，本席建請外交部提供國人相關高風險國家列表參閱，並說明我國應如何協助國人應處相關情況。","七、中國制裁臺灣人的思想自由？建請國安單位應研擬反制措施","在賴清德總統就職滿月之際，中國動用公安、檢察、司法、國安等四大刀把子，聯合公布《關於依法懲治「台獨」頑固分子分裂國家、煽動分裂國家犯罪的意見》，將「台獨頑固分子」定罪量刑，甚至准用「缺席審判」。中國展現對臺施壓，足見意圖以法律制裁威嚇台灣人民的思想及言論自由。爰此，本席建請國安單位應研議反制措施。","八、中國利用統戰活動蒐集我國民個資與生物資料之目的？","近期中國統戰活動因疫後如雨後春筍般湧現，接下來將進入暑期的「校園統戰」旺季。中國更進一步鼓勵我退休軍人、警察、公務人員、教師及學生至中國辦理「居住證」、手機門號、銀行帳號，以直接或間接方式蒐集我國民個資與生物資料。此是否與中國大力發展人工智慧（AI）結合生物資料庫有關？另外，中國蒐集我國民個資是否為操弄台灣輿論、介入選舉等做準備？本席建請國安單位應關注此事並強化相關規範，以防範中國取得臺灣人個資及生物資料。","九、嚴查中國官媒新華社參與製播臺灣帶狀政論節目乙事","有媒體報導披露，中國國台辦今年年初接觸臺灣多家電視台，以「在中國商業利益」條件交換製作帶狀政論節目，欲「精準傳達」中國官方預期的效果，此外，更指出有中國官媒新華社駐台記者負責盯場，逐一提醒來賓或節目標題、CG是否有照腳本走。","中國在臺灣境內利誘電視業者製播帶狀政論節目，操弄臺灣輿論方向，並以此攻擊執政政府，此為混合戰的延伸。爰此，本席要求國安單位務必徹查此事，嚴查相關人員及其金流，倘若有違法事宜，應移送相關主管機關依法處理。"],["主席：再接下來請登記第6號陳永康委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.004093750000003,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.31409375,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.997218750000002,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.39659375,"end":37.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.15596875,"end":38.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.84346875,"end":43.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.87221875,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.06471875000001,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.95909375000001,"end":82.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.37659375000001,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.70971875000001,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.95846875000001,"end":86.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.57846875,"end":88.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.19846875,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.05909375,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.59471875000001,"end":95.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.74596875,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.68596875,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.92159375,"end":110.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.10221875,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.65409375,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.63284375,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.65721875000001,"end":129.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.25971875000002,"end":131.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.89221875,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.95846875,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.42659375,"end":141.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.75534375,"end":144.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.49784375000002,"end":153.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.42034375,"end":174.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.36659375000002,"end":196.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.01284375,"end":200.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.36659375000002,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.77096875,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.72846875000002,"end":216.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.45284375000003,"end":217.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.20784375000002,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.21596875,"end":221.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.48159375,"end":222.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.08909375000002,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.04659375000003,"end":225.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.78471875000002,"end":227.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.55659375000002,"end":236.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.29784375000003,"end":237.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.20471875,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.76534375000003,"end":243.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.11096875,"end":254.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.29596875000001,"end":248.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.31284375,"end":248.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.13034375,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.92346875,"end":256.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.63221875,"end":328.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.16096875,"end":374.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.33096875,"end":382.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.44784375,"end":394.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.13846875,"end":392.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.73721875,"end":396.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.44159375000004,"end":404.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.22096875000005,"end":404.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.42346875000004,"end":412.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.45721875000004,"end":405.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.62471875,"end":420.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.23534375,"end":422.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.37846875,"end":426.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.74909375000004,"end":536.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.06096875,"end":544.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.02596875,"end":546.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.32534375,"end":549.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.86909375,"end":553.6997187500001},{"speake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就是因為包括總統府、行政院跟監察院"},{"start":87.608,"end":113.948,"text":"都提出了對這個法案違憲的一些疑慮所以都有接下來的包括立法院黨團、民進黨黨團所以我們想應該在維持憲政秩序穩定的狀態底下應該讓大法官的憲法法庭做最後裁定之後這個法到底可行不可行違憲不違憲那時候才會確定下來在此之前我認為所有的憲政機關都應該以穩定憲政為前提"},{"start":116.77,"end":116.79,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":144.58,"end":166.397,"text":"那再來要跟院長討論就是說中國最近說要嚴懲台獨份子那不但可以進行缺席審判那最重要還可以辦到死刑那我想在臺灣每個人都是台獨份子每個人也可以都不是台獨份子怎麼說呢首先只是生活在臺灣只要生活在臺灣我想每一個人每一天"},{"start":166.977,"end":167.177,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":197.097,"end":224.545,"text":"根據中國的標準,你覺得你自己背了幾條死罪,然後對於中國的放話你有什麼樣的回應?因為他對我們沒有司法管轄權,所以我不認為我背任何死罪,我活著為台灣就好了。所以一個不民主而且法治不完備的政權,透過他的法治不完備來侵犯台灣的民主,這是天大的笑話。所以我說行政院的立場保護在國內的國民,"},{"start":225.825,"end":254.714,"text":"也希望我們去到國外的人因為你有這張護照你必須去到當地國因為你可以進出他就必須當地國政府必須保障你的人身自由但是要去到大陸不管你做任何的訪問或是往來你必須清楚知道有沒有能力保護你自己因為他現在對我們是非常消極的但是手段是非常惡毒的你必須能夠保護自己否則我們真的勸全國的國人應該三思而後行"},{"start":256.005,"end":273.816,"text":"對,因為就是如同您說的,中國無權來恣意對我國國民進行所謂的制裁。那可是一旦踏入,您都說就像踏入中國一樣,或者踏入比他跟中國友好而且親友司法引渡條例的這個國家,那我想我們就不可不慎了。"},{"start":274.736,"end":299.318,"text":"好那接下來要跟院長討論就是說立委附中納管的問題也就是沈博洋委員首先提出的那本席跟多位民進黨委員也有後續提出那像我本席的案子今天又在國民黨跟民眾黨聯手之下在程序委員會被封殺了好那這個條例就是兩岸人民關係條例的修正案那在我們的提案中有規範與國家秘密"},{"start":299.958,"end":328.267,"text":"國家安全相關人員若要前往中國就必須要行前申請經過審查而且在中國如果跟黨政軍相關人有接觸還要申報他接觸的這個狀況交往的情形跟內容那當然我們很清楚知道我們的提案是以台灣保護台灣國家安全的立場為出發點那在中國無所不用其極的打壓台灣的主權跟國人安全的狀態之下我想為了維護國人的安全立委"},{"start":329.247,"end":329.267,"text":"請問院長﹖"},{"start":355.333,"end":374.318,"text":"如果在這樣的狀況之下我國欠缺對立委附中納管的規範那是不是會造成立委人身安全的疑慮那如果是有真的有立委在中國遭到羅茲罪狀的時候那肯定會進一步升高臺灣跟中國兩國的衝突那院長你怎麼看"},{"start":375.91,"end":394.321,"text":"謝謝委員,也許換一個角度來看,立委是國會議員,也是國家重要的政治工作者。他要去到一個我們認為不是安全的地方,如果讓政府能夠提早事先知道,或是國會裡面有一套自我管理的這個權利,我們也會比較有能力"},{"start":394.821,"end":395.121,"text":"﹚林宜瑾"},{"start":417.225,"end":425.972,"text":"但是去到特殊的地方不安全的地方對人生有威脅的地方我想政府跟人民都有這樣的義務來保障國家重要的資產"},{"start":427.583,"end":454.27,"text":"另外跟院長說明5月29日本席在內政委員會有質詢立委附中納管這個問題的時候那時候梁文傑副主委他的回應是說就立委會的立場而言前往中國接受虛數審查的人員在現行兩岸人民關係條例裡面其實就有包括立法院的人員但是長久以來立法院都沒有按照兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":455.53,"end":477.008,"text":"所要求去提列那些前往中國的人員,那梁副主委有強調,他說針對立法院長期違規的這件事情,陸委會曾經行文立法院,那立法院從來沒有回覆,那從經察院到地方法院到全國各機關人員都會接受附中的審查,可是唯獨立法院不遵守。"},{"start":478.309,"end":491.538,"text":"在質詢之後,梁副主委、陸委會也進一步透過書面的回答,他說實務上政府總統除了立法院之外的四院院長、政府官、地方首長、"},{"start":492.739,"end":493.539,"text":"（6月21日．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．8時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":517.631,"end":535.623,"text":"所以根據兩岸人民關係條例違反第9條第4項規定要處200萬以上1000萬以下的罰款那請問院長對於立法院知法犯法的行為這個開罰了嗎那該如何要嚴格執法讓立法院可以遵守這個規範"},{"start":537.073,"end":537.333,"text":"王前院長"},{"start":562.205,"end":574.046,"text":"我希望他安全的回來告訴我們將來如何保護自己的安全如果這個是一個過程的話那我們希望說能夠促進大家更有效的對自己人身安全的顧慮跟保障這個才是重要的"},{"start":574.326,"end":595.684,"text":"好,那再來跟院長談到中正經驗談個轉型的問題喔。利用國家資源,然後強迫全民浪費,紀念獨裁者,這件極度不合理的事情,我從大學時期就一路反對到現在。在教育委員會裡面喔,包括李永德部長,史哲部長,現在的李遠部長,也都被我質詢過這一題。"},{"start":597.145,"end":621.222,"text":"那我想在院會我也跟孫昌院長討論過就是促轉會提出任務總結報告後各部會的轉型正義的工作的交接狀況那根據促轉會的總結報告我進一步有在院會跟陳建仁院長有討論過在中正進黨的轉型的過程中有一件事情是此時此刻我們就可以做的就是撤離三軍儀隊又或者至少讓三軍儀隊離開堂體"},{"start":624.264,"end":652.873,"text":"改駐所在升旗台那裡（6月11日姑部長有回答邱志偉委員答詢的時候您個人的看法有說一對是可以移到自由廣場進行操練也等於說回應了本席長期的倡議那不過今天想要進一步跟院長跟部長請教的是第一若使這些要作為的時間"},{"start":654.173,"end":683.763,"text":"第二,就是上一次針對這項議題的詢答．昨天院長也有提到說．如果三軍一隊駐守在忠烈祠．那這種代表的是．他對我們對壯烈犧牲官兵的尊敬．那造成的爭議．就不會像住房在忠正建堂那麼大．換句話說．三軍一隊為什麼住房．住房的背後的意義．跟論述非常的重要．所以我們現在才再回頭來請教．那三軍一隊．如果真的移往所謂的自由廣場．那它的代表的意義是什麼．"},{"start":684.963,"end":704.85,"text":"國防部附以操練的意義是什麼?是觀光嗎?部長先回答。跟委員報告,因為三菁儀殿現在有關他要如何進行操演,現在是文化部在主管。我們國防部已經跟文化部已經經過,我不曉得應該有一兩三次的協調。"},{"start":706.691,"end":728.908,"text":"就有將我們的主張傳達給文化部,也就是說將三軍儀隊從離開場地到自由廣場來進行操演。大概已經協調差不多,到底是什麼時候來執行這件事情,可能最後要由文化部做一個最後的排版。 所以是文化部主導嗎?"},{"start":728.908,"end":731.129,"text":"我們國防部是完全配合。"},{"start":732.933,"end":737.868,"text":"國防部完全配合文化部,所以文化部在規劃（就把這一隊的操演移到自由廣場（好"},{"start":739.548,"end":766.286,"text":"院長拜託這個時間不要再拖了我期待下一個會期的質詢就不要再質詢這個議題了我們都應該承認中正紀念堂的定義跟他的意義社會上還是存在不同的看法的那我們現在跟國防部跟文化部就是在掃尋一個大家最能夠接受共識最高的方式同樣表達我們對國家過去歷史的一個認知但是也讓更多的民眾可以在更寬廣的地方看得到這種"},{"start":766.966,"end":782.198,"text":"一對的表演代表國家的一種軍隊文化對國家的效忠對沒錯好那拜託這件事情儘速處理假設有共識的話那另外我想最後要跟院長探討五一勞動節全國一致性放假這個議題喔院長其實這個議題本身做了很久"},{"start":784.42,"end":806.866,"text":"我在2020選第一次立委的時候就把這個議題放進我的政見裡面那當上立委之後我就馬上跟當時的蘇貞昌院長提議這件事情那後來陳建仁院長上任我也一直跟他倡議那我想對於勞動解放假這個議題本席不斷的跟中央耳提面面那好不容易在去年"},{"start":807.566,"end":833.716,"text":"在今年陳建仁院長有說好好的要來研議那可能會有一些共識要作為全國性一致放假的這個狀況那我想很快就會有答案他是這樣說當然很遺憾今年的午1還是沒看到放假那理由是說時間太倉促因為我們通常都是今年的這個假期都是去年的6月30"},{"start":835.317,"end":862.934,"text":"前會公布今年的行事曆那表示明年的行事曆今年6月30號會公布那所以好我想要請問院長的是這件事情到底有沒有譜就是說明年五一勞動節全面放假這件事確實如委員所說這個明年的行事曆現在在行政院裡面他正在尋一定的程序在往上來處理那"},{"start":864.835,"end":889.727,"text":"我們對於勞工的尊重跟理解我們五一勞動節是勞工有放假但是其他的也有類似這樣的單一職業別或類別的假期是沒有放假的那這個我們從常來規劃因為我們現在全國一年當中的放假日已經達到117天了117天比過去又多了幾天所以在這樣的情況底下我們必須考慮到勞僱雙方的關係還有整個社會其他層面的影響"},{"start":890.307,"end":917.017,"text":"但是現在既然這個案已經在院內裡面在處理,我們就用一種全新的感覺去感覺說這個到底對社會的...因為院長,這個假日是對這個產業衝擊最小,因為本來就放假,產業本來就放假,反而是軍公教不放假,這個假設是一個學校的話,一個公立學校,那老師學生都要去上課,可是由裡面的工友,裡面的雛工,"},{"start":917.897,"end":920.098,"text":"所以我想這件事情要請院長"},{"start":947.605,"end":948.325,"text":"我們再繼續研究,謝謝委員指教,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154183","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154183","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fbe1cddbc503e56b7a4c867c7a3ae89c5402ac479e6c663ba91ed3886e2543e9df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"15:46:49 - 16:02:27","影片長度":"00:15:38","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T15:46:49+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T16:02:27+08:00","duration":938,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":308,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（15時46分）謝謝主席，有請我們卓院長，待會再請我們國防部部長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢，請國防部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好，午安。"],["黃委員仁：你好，再一次的跟你進行第2次的質詢。關於韓國瑜院長及傅崐萁總召受習近平的指示，這是一個非常政治的議題，所以我們來探討一下，這樣的一個字眼是用於凸顯民進黨造謠，利用認知作戰打擊在野黨。院長，這是一個非常嚴重的議題。你說，在臺灣，我們是擁護國家國安的立場，而且是維護國家的安全，尤其是民意代表，我們是維護人民的權益跟維護人民的安全，一樣。請問院長，你是國安會的當然成員嗎？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員仁：好，根據國家安全會議組織法第四條，行政院院長是國家安全會議的出席人員。院長不只是出席國安會議，還要熟悉會議內容，並落實會議的決議。國安會中曾經討論過認知作戰對國安的危害，除了中共對我發動認知作戰外，我國還面臨哪一個方向的認知作戰？你來回答一下好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員抱歉，到行政院這麼一段時間以來，我還沒有正式參加過正式的國安會議。"],["黃委員仁：是，目前來講，當然我們國防部部長，認知的作戰……"],["主席：麻煩請國防部長備詢。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：好，剛剛我也提過，國安會中曾經討論認知作戰對國家的危害，除了中共對我們發動認知的作戰，我國面臨哪一些認知作戰的問題？將來、以後我們怎麼樣去應對跟我們面臨的認知作戰？"],["顧部長立雄：我想認知作戰的手法是滿多元的，主要有統戰、軍事威脅、爭議訊息還有假訊息等等作為，然後他用網路社群媒體作為平臺散布跟包裝有些真偽夾雜混淆的這些……透過一個多元的管道，大量的、迅速的產生跟傳播等等這些訊息。"],["黃委員仁：好，我們希望剛剛你提的認知作戰是對著這樣的議題，而不是今天用不少的宣講針對傅崐萁或者我們韓院長。用這樣的一個認知作戰說他們是習近平的代言人，以這樣一個作法、民進黨以這樣的一個策略造成我們國內的團結……，另外就是認知作戰不是對內，我們應該是共同對外，如何防範以後將會危及我們國家安全的這樣一個議題，是吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們面對中國可能的認知作戰，我們都隨時要有警惕跟戒心，我們這裡要呼籲的是避免中國藉由認知作戰來分化我們的團結，我想這個是我們應該要有警惕的。"],["黃委員仁：所以我們要嚴禁民進黨再來提出這樣的議題，對內說在野黨是中共的代言人，這樣是不對的！剛剛我特別請教你有關認知作戰的議題，就是讓國人知道不是民進黨在外面宣講這樣的問題。","另外就是我對潛艦國造的期程，請問一下部長，海鯤艦目前已進行了泊港的測試，泊港的情況有順利嗎？另外有消息指出，光電桅杆5月底已經到貨，到現在已經將近一個月了，是否已經完成泊港測試，何時會進入到海上的測試？因為光電桅杆是一個非常重要的儀器。部長，你來回答一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我的瞭解是都已經交運完畢了，現在正在進行泊港的測試，那麼都有依照相關的節點來進行，我沒有辦法在這裡跟委員說明泊港測試大概什麼時候會完畢，但是一旦泊港測試完成之後，就會接續進行海上測試；我想這個都依照相關節點進行。"],["黃委員仁：本席提醒我們部長，根據過去各國潛艦造艦的期程，原型艦從下水到成軍至少要兩年以上，像日本這樣一個工業大國，蒼龍級潛艦從下水到成軍也花了大約一年半的時間。海鯤艦在去年9月底命名下水，我們首次造潛艦，期間部分裝備又延遲，按照理論上，比起其他國家需要更多時間才能成軍，本席提醒潛艦國造一定要以安全為念、為優先，千萬不要趕進度，潛艦是非常重要的，不要為了趕進度而危及到它的安全性。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們一定是以系統裝備功能測試的實況結果跟安全為首要考量。"],["黃委員仁：未來海鯤號進行海上測試的時候，你們願意登艦一起進行潛艦測試嗎？願不願意？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們完全沒有那個資格。"],["顧部長立雄：我想測試這個情況是很專業的，要由專業技協依照相關測試節點來進行。"],["黃委員仁：台船董事長鄭文隆也表達了他會登艦見證海鯤號潛艦各項測試項目，黃曙光可能也會共同登艦出海見證歷史性的一刻，海鯤艦下潛最重要的里程碑，本席建議時任的院長和部長應該要主動參與下潛測試，以提高國人對潛艦國造的信心，也提振國軍……"],["顧部長立雄：我認為相關的海事是屬於專業的，不是院長或部長去作秀的一個地方。"],["黃委員仁：不是作秀。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，跟委員報告，潛艦的完成代表國家一個非常重要的軍事發展階段，我們應該要很慎重看它，在艦上的所有官兵都是國家賦予重責大任的一時之選，測試的過程當中，也許工程的測試是另外一種，但正式下海下潛的這個測試，絕對是一個很重要的行為，所以不是我們去那邊告訴大家說，我們願意來的這個情況，或許部長也應該知道，我們沒有這個能力……"],["黃委員仁：今天國軍的士氣每況愈下。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以從其他方式，讓國軍認為我們跟他們站在一起。"],["黃委員仁：你們也應該要有所作為，要站在國軍的角度裡面去提升國軍的士氣，應該要勇於面對事實。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會適時來發布相關的這一個測試狀況。"],["黃委員仁：部長，你是新任的，應該表達更有力、更讓國軍能夠覺得士氣高昂。另外就是有關聯合利劍─2024A，中共今年5月23號進行聯合利劍─2024A的軍演，請問一下部長，在演習區域示意圖裡面，哪一個訓練區最值得關注？你看一下這張圖。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，它這一次2024A聯合利劍演習，只有畫了演習區域大致上的一張圖，並沒有標示正確的經緯度，所以事實上演習區域跟它現在標示的位置，也沒有完成重疊……"],["黃委員仁：好，部長，我現在跟你講，這個就是讓你縱深，這個縱深的意義是什麼？是從西到東部，它縱深裡面是因為臺灣和大陸距離太近，戰時的前線與後方難以區分，必須要用各種方式創造部隊的緩衝空間，這個空間就是「縱深」，從西部到東部畫一道線，這就是戰略非常重要的一條線，這是我要讓部長知道的。","有關本席發現國防部刻意淡化這一次的聯合利劍─2024A，在這一張演習區示意圖裡面，最值得關注的就是花蓮外海的演訓區，它正面逼近佳山基地，而佳山基地是國軍戰力保存的重中之重。之前民進黨政府好大喜功，已經在裴洛西訪臺時把海峽中線弄丟了，所以這個是非常嚴重、非常嚴重的事件。","另外6月13日共軍無人機也抵進花蓮外海39浬處，讓我們利用地形優勢建立的戰力保存再受到威脅，部長，如果搞不清楚狀況，事態將會非常嚴重啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我們從來沒有輕忽您講的這個利劍演習，它不管是用示意圖的方式，或者它在相關的實際作為上面，對我們來講是調整國土防衛構想重要的一個參據，這個我想我們是高度的重視，在之前電腦指揮所的這一個兵推裡面，我們也都把它納入我們應該有的想定。"],["黃委員仁：好，對於佳山基地受到共軍的直接威脅，國軍有何應對？今年的漢光演習是否將此應對納入考量？"],["顧部長立雄：當然戰力保存是我們在演練首要的重點，接下來還有整體防空、海上聯合截擊等等，這些都是我們演練的項目之一，戰力保存是特別的重要。"],["黃委員仁：好，另外就是對於柴油軍用車輛設定戰鬥模式的問題，當初為避免柴油軍用車輛因戰時無法取得尿素導致動力不足的疑慮，國防部採取了應對的措施是什麼？我特別要講的就是，這些車輛更改設定後的檢測都正常嗎？不正常；第二個，用來更改車輛設定的設備是否符合規範？不會符合；另外據瞭解，提供戰鬥模式設定服務的某個廠商，在未經車廠原廠授權下，私下採用紅色鏈，即大陸製作的設備與山寨版的設定軟體，逕行為國軍提供服務。部長，你知不知道這個事情？你要調查清楚啊！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們已經完成車輛戰鬥模式設定，可以在尿素缺乏的時候，使車輛的性能不受限制，另外也建立了尿素的存量，也持續請合約商來籌補，現存的量提供支援沒有疑慮，所以我們一方面調整了戰鬥模式，也就是即使是尿素缺乏，仍然可以進行。"],["黃委員仁：我剛剛已經提出了，有大陸的產品在裡面，就紅色鏈，這個就是你們最反對的，所以你們要瞭解清楚啊！","另外是這一張圖，你看一下，這是元征科技公司的簡介，上面清楚寫到深圳市元征科技股份有限公司成立於1992年，臺灣則有設立分公司，這是一個非常嚴重的事情，影響國安的案件，本席要求國防部，第一個，調查該大陸設備與軟體是否植入非法程式在相關軍用車輛上，國防部如何補救？第二，目前已提供戰鬥模式設定服務廠商，其報價落差每輛車輛新臺幣一萬兩千六百至六萬兩千七百不等，報價差距高達五倍，軍方是否落實詢價機制而且調查這樣的一個問題？這非常嚴重，我這邊已經調查清楚，麻煩你們在一個禮拜內把這些報告給本席，作為未來追溯是否有引用紅色鏈的根據。"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分我瞭解以後馬上跟委員回應。"],["黃委員仁：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，像這樣重大的事情，您不必等到總質詢，隨時交給我。"],["黃委員仁：好。"],["主席：謝謝黃仁委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢、國防部的備詢。","接下來登記第3號的林俊憲委員改書面質詢。"],["委員林俊憲書面質詢：","1.","今年以來，朝鮮內部已逐漸轉變對南戰略，明確放棄半島統一主張，而是直接改以承認「敵國」的方式看待南韓，且南韓國防部長日前透露，俄烏戰爭以來，朝鮮已提供480萬發砲彈給俄羅斯，再加上朝俄近期簽訂共同防禦條約，兩國戰略關係已上升至新高度。而中國透過各種手段援助俄羅斯已非秘密。","中朝兩國都在支撐俄羅斯，不因深陷戰場泥沼而倒下，三國正形成某種「命運共同體」的結合。請國安局研判，朝鮮改變對南戰略此舉原因為何？對台灣在內的印太地區地緣政治又有何影響？","2.","以歐亞大陸視角來看，在俄烏戰爭發生前，潛在地緣政治衝突大多出現在大陸與海洋交界處，以中國、俄羅斯等傳統陸權國家與美國等海權國家爭奪大洋控制權為主題展開，但俄烏戰爭後，中俄朝三國被迫合作，維持歐亞大陸的心臟地帶穩定。","請國安局和國防部研判，中俄朝三國合作，中國的戰略部署是否有隨之改變？從聚焦印太地區開始回防中亞新疆等內陸地帶？並且是否會對我國在軍事和戰略部署上產生影響？"],["主席：接下來請登記第4號林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.22034375,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.21596875,"end":5.970968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.494093750000001,"end":6.7134687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.66659375,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.915343750000002,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.075343750000002,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.88471875,"end":21.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.765968750000003,"end":27.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.50346875,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.574718750000002,"end":35.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.143468750000004,"end":44.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.142218750000005,"end":46.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.92659375,"end":47.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.462218750000005,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.89659375,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.31659375,"end":62.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.26159375,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.67909375,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.72471875000001,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.16346875,"end":70.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.77096875000001,"end":71.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.96909375,"end":90.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.56534375000001,"end":105.75284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.30971875,"end":111.00096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.22034375000001,"end":112.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.70534375000001,"end":113.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.76846875000001,"end":115.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.51909375000001,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.97846875,"end":120.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.33284375000001,"end":120.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.38346875,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.68721875000001,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.44909375,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.97221875,"end":133.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.30971875,"end":133.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.49534375000002,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.32221875000002,"end":135.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.00971875000002,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.65096875,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.35909375,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.09096875,"end":171.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.98721875,"end":173.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.70846875,"end":183.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.37346875,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.05659375000002,"end":219.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.06409375,"end":222.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.96659375000002,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.88034375,"end":242.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.69346875000002,"end":243.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.14471875,"end":247.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.46909375,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.32971875,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.34221875000003,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.24471875,"end":267.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.51659375,"end":280.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.32034375,"end":289.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.60596875000005,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.47909375,"end":292.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.99784375,"end":316.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.04471875,"end":318.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.54659375,"end":331.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.02971875000003,"end":342.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.95659375,"end":341.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.40784375000004,"end":392.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.99909375000004,"end":393.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.12971875000005,"end":399.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.41221875,"end":396.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.02346875,"end":405.03096875},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是,我們報告淺建的完成代表國家一個非常重要的軍事的發展的階段。我們應該用很慎重來看它。在建上的所有官兵都是國家賦予重責大任的一時之選。測試的過程當中也許工程的測試是另外一種,但正式的"},{"start":497.799,"end":518.109,"text":"下海這個下潛這個測試那絕對是一個很重要的行為所以不是我們去那邊告訴大家說我們願意來的這個情況我想我本人或許部長也應該我們沒有這個能力的資格﹖今天國軍國軍的士氣每況夜下﹖我們可以從其他方式來讓國軍認為我們跟他站在一起﹖那應該應該你們也有所作為"},{"start":518.849,"end":543.126,"text":"要站在國軍的角度裡面提升國軍的士氣應該要勇於去面對或是是...我們會適時的來發布相關的這個測試的狀況。 你是新任你應該發表表達更有力更讓國軍能夠覺得士氣的高昂那另外就是有關於聯合力艦2024A"},{"start":545.948,"end":563.07,"text":"中共到今年的5月23日進行聯合立憲2024A的經驗請問一下部長在這裡在遠溪區城市示意圖裡面哪一個訓練區最為值得關注你看一下這個"},{"start":564.231,"end":585.678,"text":"跟委員報告他這一次2024歷經演習A他只有畫了一個一個那個演習區的一個大致上的一個圖他並沒有標示正確的經緯度所以事實上他演習的區域跟他現在標記的位置也沒有完全的重疊這一個就是讓你眾生"},{"start":587.187,"end":615.594,"text":"這個縱深的意義是什麼是從西到東部他縱深裡面是臺灣因為和大陸距離太近暫時的前線後方難以區分必須要用各種方式創造部隊的緩衝空間這個空間就是縱深縱深從西部到東部劃掉一道線這個就是一個非常重要的一個戰略的一個線這是我要讓"},{"start":616.687,"end":635.369,"text":"我讓部長知道,那有關於本期發現這個國防部刻意淡化這一次的聯合力氣2024A在威脅性在這一張演習區示意圖裡面最值得關注的就是花蓮外海的演習區,它正面"},{"start":637.892,"end":651.451,"text":"．山基地是國軍戰力保存的重中之重。之前在民進黨政府有大號喜功已經是在斐洛西反台的時候"},{"start":652.973,"end":672.404,"text":"我們國際戰力我們的海峽中線已經弄丟了弄丟了所以這個是非常嚴重非常嚴重那另外6月13號共經無人機也抵抵近花蓮海外海39海里讓我們利用他"},{"start":673.359,"end":701.625,"text":"地形的優勢建立了戰力保存在受到威脅部長如果搞不清楚狀況的話事態將會非常的嚴重我們從來沒有輕忽這個您講的這個歷屆演習他不管是用示意圖的方式或是他在相關的實際作為上面對我們來參與我們來調整這一個國土防衛構想的一個重要的參與這個我想我們高度的重視在之前這個"},{"start":703.405,"end":707.686,"text":"當然我們戰力保存是我們在演練的第一個所要的重點當然接下來還有整體防空、海上聯合階級等等"},{"start":732.291,"end":733.011,"text":"另外我這特別要講的齁"},{"start":758.187,"end":784.522,"text":"這一些車輛更改設定後的檢測都正常嗎?不正常。第二個用來更改車輛設定的設備是否符合規定規範?不會符合。那另外據了解提供戰鬥模式設定服務的某個廠商在未經原廠授權下私下採用紅色令大陸製作的設備以"},{"start":787.203,"end":810.176,"text":"三載版的設定軟體經行為國新提供服務。 部長,你知道這個事情,你要調查清楚啊。跟委員報告,那個我們已經完成車輛戰鬥模式的設定, 可以在尿素缺乏的時候呢,車輛的性能不受限制。 那另外也建立了尿素的存量跟持續性合約上來籌補。"},{"start":811.176,"end":815.7,"text":"我剛剛已經提出了有大陸的大陸的產品在裡面就紅色鏈所以這個就是你們最反對的那所以你們要了解清楚那另外是這一張圖你看一下"},{"start":836.796,"end":856.203,"text":"這是原生科技公司的簡介上面清楚寫道深圳市原生科技股份有限公司成立於1992年臺灣則有設立分公司這是一個非常嚴重的事情影響國安的案件本席要求國防部第一個"},{"start":857.653,"end":885.461,"text":"二、調查該大陸設備與軟體是否植入非法城市有相關的議題。（6月25日（車輛相關軍用車輛上國防如何補救。（6月25日（第二目前已提供戰鬥模式設定服務廠商其報價落差每輛車輛新台幣一萬兩千六至六千兩百"},{"start":886.841,"end":913.63,"text":"六萬兩千七百等不等報價差距高達五倍。 軍方是否落實來詢價而且調查這樣的一個問題因為這是非常嚴重因為我這邊已經調查清楚麻煩你們在一個禮拜內把這些細數的報告要給本席作為追溯未來是否有引用這個黃色鏈"},{"start":916.519,"end":920.981,"text":"這個部分我下來瞭解一下以後,馬上跟委員回應。好,謝謝。謝謝黃仁委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長的備詢,國防部備詢,謝謝。接下來我們請登記第三號林郡縣委員改書"}]}},{"id":"154182","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154182","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fbfac8103b7962fbc64c867c7a3ae89c5402ac479e6c663ba99f7d644b0591455c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"15:29:51 - 15:46:45","影片長度":"00:16:54","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-25","start_time":"2024-06-25T15:29:51+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-25T15:46:45+08:00","duration":1014,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議","id":"院會-11-1-19","type":"院會","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":184,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（15時30分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請行政院卓院長以及外交部林部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長及外交部林部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。首先，我記得在外交及國防委員會，我有給林佳龍部長稱讚啦……"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：按照check record，過去的學經歷，你是耶魯的政治博士，當過臺中市長，立法委員你們兩個都有當過，你還當過交通部長等等，反觀我們現在的卓院長，就是跟我一樣，陽春立委做完，一路做，還當過民進黨代理主席一段時間……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是代理，報告委員，那不是代理，那是選出來的。"],["賴委員士葆：選出來的？好，選出來的，就是當一個黨職，一般來講，黨職的社會評價都不高啦，以社會評價來講，其實林佳龍比卓榮泰高。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼你當院長他當部長，他心裡不平嘛！我那時候問他……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我沒有能力去當外交部長啦。"],["賴委員士葆：我那時候問他，他說心裡不舒服啊，他這樣說啊！"],["林部長佳龍：不會，外交很重要，受總統跟院長的邀請，我承擔……"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼他做，因為正國會沒有位置擺林佳龍，所以他百般無奈坐在這裡！好，既然你坐在這個位子就要認真做事情，該有的作為都要有，最近有一件事情，我對林佳龍院長，林佳龍部長，你看我都會把你叫成院長，我心裡都認為你當院長了，我對你的尊敬打一半，我對你的評價好感大幅降低啊，因為你卡韓國瑜啊，坐在那裏，你是看他不順眼是不是？有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：我有共推韓院長做董事長。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，為什麼開始給他這麼穿小鞋呢？基金會執行長盧業中是政大外交系的系主任，他也當過民主基金會副執行長5年耶，結果你們硬把他幹掉，請問你下一次什麼時候給他提名？會不會……"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，我們尊重民主基金會董事會的決定……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有！你是副董事長，但你一手在那裡「弄」啦，一手在那裡「弄」，很清楚看得到，現在國外的駐台單位對這個事情表達嚴重關切喔，好幾個國外駐臺單位都說what's going on？TFD的執行長為什麼沒有辦法產生？請問有沒有收到外國駐臺灣的單位給你的關切？有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：經過我們查證，那是一個假訊息啦……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：美國的NED也沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你知不知道全世界世界民主運動大會今年在哪裡舉辦？你都不知道啊！心不在焉啊！你心裡只有在意位子而已啊！"],["林部長佳龍：在韓國舉辦，韓國。"],["賴委員士葆：韓國？亂講一通！"],["林部長佳龍：世界民主……"],["賴委員士葆：在南非約翰尼斯堡。什麼時候開始舉行？今年，你也不知道！這樣子你還干預民主基金會的人事！請問你，我們一般部長都會去拜訪立委，請問外交委員會的委員有幾位？"],["林部長佳龍：外交委員會大概13位……"],["賴委員士葆：13位，你都一個一個拜訪了嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我就是儘可能啦，因為有些委員公出或比較忙。"],["賴委員士葆：其中有「一尊」這麼大尊的你沒有去拜會耶！"],["林部長佳龍：有，我有……"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？有嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我有跟院長的隨扈留話，但還沒有安排上。"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？沒有嘛！院長，我沒有講錯嘛，沒有啊！你心裡對卓榮泰的憤怒轉移到韓國瑜的身上，我替院長叫屈！你瞧不起院長、瞧不起立法院！"],["林部長佳龍：如果院長有空，我隨時一定會去跟院長請益。"],["賴委員士葆：老實說，我當這麼久的立委，部長來不來我都無所謂，但是他是院長，不一樣，你不去看院長，其他委員你都去看了，院長那裡你不去看是什麼意思？藐視國會！藐視院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我有去看院長喔。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，你有看啦，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：看了兩次喔。"],["賴委員士葆：因為他可以去看，所以他當院長你當部長。"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，我有請院長的隨扈幫我聯繫，因為時間上沒有辦法排好，那個時候……"],["賴委員士葆：怎會那麼奇怪？！就心不甘情不願，哪有那種事情，我每天去站著等著他，絕對碰得到啦！怎麼會碰不到？"],["林部長佳龍：那我以後跟委員一起去。"],["賴委員士葆：你不用看我，我不是外交委員會的，你要看院長……"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["賴委員士葆：院長是國防委員會的委員耶！他是國防委員會的委員呢！所以你看，卓榮泰就當院長，你就沒有當院長了，差在這裡。結果，民主基金會做什麼你也不知道，今年的世界民主運動大會在哪裡？在約翰尼斯堡，你也不知道，那你部長做假的。"],["林部長佳龍：剛舉行過的就在韓國。"],["賴委員士葆：還是要說「姑不二三將」啦，不然也好啦，雞肋啦，「加減罔食按呢爾爾」嘞？你不知道？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，因為叫做「世界民主高峰會」的很多個，最近就是以拜登為主召開的那一個在韓國。"],["賴委員士葆：你說的是另外一個啦！我跟你說的是跟美國一起的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，你如果認為林部長確實是一個不可多得的人才，你應該多給他鼓勵，而不是這樣子……"],["賴委員士葆：在你面前他就沒有啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有，他就是非常，我曾經幾次說他是我們從有史以來，能夠用經貿的觀念、文化的觀念去經營外交關係的一位部長，我們對他寄望都很深，也希望在這裡能夠發揮他的長才……"],["賴委員士葆：你知道嗎，這個叫「世界民主運動大會（World Movement for Democracy, WMD）」以前有在臺灣舉辦過，今年度是在……，今年是跟……，我們TFD跟美國NED共同主辦，在2022的時候主辦過，2024年就要在約翰尼斯堡，11月20號到22號，你完全不知道，然後你要干預民主基金會的運作，你是憑哪一點啊？就憑你叫做林佳龍？不是，憑你是民進黨，不可以這樣欺負……"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，因為2023年在臺灣舉辦，我有參與，以總統府秘書長的身分，所以對民主基金會……"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，民主基金會的副董事長……"],["林部長佳龍：也能夠舉辦很成功的這次高峰會，我後來到韓國……"],["賴委員士葆：民主基金會的副董事長是小於民主基金會的董事長，董事長是在這裡，你們就一路卡，時間也卡，人選也卡，你什麼時候可以搞定？"],["林部長佳龍：董事會的決定是敦請我們韓院長（董事長）主持來提名，董事會會行使同意權……"],["賴委員士葆：可以提早召開臨時董事會，決定執行長的人選嗎？可以嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：那應該尊重董事長，他可以召集。"],["賴委員士葆：董事長聽了，可以啦！我們下禮拜就召開，下禮拜就召開，這個補起來，因為國外的駐臺單位已經「擋袂牢」啊，特別是NED美國國家民主基金會「擋袂牢」，他說我要跟你們合作……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，因為那是假訊息……"],["賴委員士葆：執行長在哪裡啊？林佳龍董事，執行長咧？"],["林部長佳龍：那個有人操作的啦！它就透過媒體放出來，事實上我們跟美國的民主基金會，我們聯繫的管道很好。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你請回吧，我就知道你只有想當官，想取代他，不好好認真努力啦！民主基金會，部長，你聽我一句話，先不要走，你站在那裡聽我講一句話就好。你們用這樣來卡，沒問題，對不起，民主基金會錢不多，1.8億不到2億，我們立法院就好好伺候你們，同時伺候你們外交部預算，馬上就要審預算了，我們看著辦，走著瞧看著辦，這樣欺負韓國瑜，你看著好了，欺負韓國瑜等於欺負立法院，特別是欺負立法院的國民黨團，我們絕對全力做他的後盾，看著辦。","院長，這個總統，賴清德總統到現在為止，我沒有看到總統啊！Where is the President of 賴清德？It's gone.不見了，他就是民進黨的主席……"],["卓院長榮泰：我經常看到總統，沒有，我經常看到賴總統。"],["賴委員士葆：他昨天講的……"],["卓院長榮泰：昨天他也以軍禮代表中華民國國人跟政府歡迎友邦的總理……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講，我跟卓院長報告，我的時間很短，我沒有叫你講，你不要講話，好不好？讓我把這個講完，因為我時間太少了。","外面共軍擾台，總統大搞內鬥，根據憲法第四十四條，總統有權力協調五院，大家有爭議協調一下，他不要協調耶，直接對幹。總統不見了，只見了民進黨的主席叫賴清德，結果呢，TAIDE，類似ChatGPT，我們國科會發展出來的，它說什麼？注意看喔，它說總統發動抗議並號召各機關共同反對國會通過的重大法案，可能被視為獨裁皇帝行為。他是皇帝啊！emperor，帝王啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：他是帝王emperor，他不是president……你不要講話，我現在要講完，我就不會叫你回答，因為你不是賴清德。你既然喜歡講話，我讓你來看這個東西，就是憲法增修條文第三條第二項第二款，你自己也講過啊！覆議不過怎麼辦？你說覆議不過我就接受，沒有辭職的選項，是你講的嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！但是憲法裡面規定得這麼清楚，原來是第五十七條，現在是增修條文，已經改了，第五十七條是規定要辭職，增修條文是規定不要辭職，但是要接受，既然你接受了，你還提什麼釋憲？是提「頭殼破一空」嗎？人格錯亂啦！先不要急，我的整體感覺就是你追隨賴皇帝、emperor賴，一起加入追殺在野黨的行列，他一聲令下，調動你行政院，調動監察院，調動立院黨團，一起追殺在野黨，讓臺灣變成了一個紮紮實實的獨裁帝制國家，可憐啦！你可以講話了，給你講30秒，來，你講！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你剛剛跟林部長說：欺負韓院長就是欺負立法院，剛剛你那一席話對總統不禮貌、對國家不禮貌，我提出覆議是因為窒礙難行，既然它沒有過，我認為從憲法上來講，它就是違憲不可行……"],["賴委員士葆：憲法也講，你提出覆議就是違憲，憲法規定你要接受啊！You have got to accept it！你就接受而已啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法有賦予行政院長提出覆議的權力……"],["賴委員士葆：提出覆議就代表你不接受啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法有賦予行政院長提出覆議的權力。"],["賴委員士葆：你就是不能接受啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：覆議是因為窒礙難行。"],["賴委員士葆：如果窒礙難行的話，你可以提釋憲，但是你不要提覆議……"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為窒礙難行，當然可以提覆議啊！"],["賴委員士葆：二擇一，你不能兩者都要啊！哪有這樣子的？而且你提覆議輸了，你不要下臺，然後現在又提釋憲，好康的都要拿去哦？吃乾抹淨，這個到底只是賴清德的小跟班，可憐啊！可憐啊！可憐啊！可憐啊！可憐啊！可憐啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，總統跟行政院長都是照憲法的秩序來，你應該支持，否則你就是反憲法。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，憲法第五十七條後來改成增修條文，你要接受，既然接受，你提什麼覆議？你告訴我，你提什麼覆議？這就是打我們耳光嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為窒礙難行啊！我認為窒礙難行，大院不接受，我認為違憲不可行，我請求司法院大法官會議來處理。"],["賴委員士葆：你看一看嘛！你怎麼有臉再提釋憲？你提覆議都輸了，怎麼有臉再提釋憲呢？釋憲應該是總統提。"],["卓院長榮泰：提一百個理由都很難說服委員，我知道啦！"],["賴委員士葆：總統提可以，對不對？監察院提可以，夠了啦！老實講，總統一個人就夠了，而且老實講，賴清德皇帝做了這個事情是最壞的示範，非常的……"],["卓院長榮泰：你再一次用這種方式來對總統不禮貌，我絕對不能接受。"],["賴委員士葆：我講話你不要插嘴。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是你不禮貌，我就不能接受。"],["賴委員士葆：我怎麼不禮貌呢？我講賴清德皇帝，很禮貌啊！稱呼他皇帝耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：一個遵照憲法的總統怎麼會被你稱呼為皇帝呢？"],["賴委員士葆：皇帝啊！他的行為就是皇帝啊！我們可以看啊！像監察院，然後大法官都是你們提名的，大法官15個人，8個人就可以開會，1個人當主席，7個人中只要4個人就可以決定，就把我們幹掉了，4個人推翻113個人的決議，我們的國會改革五法，民進黨的版本占了四成，這個要好好的檢討，我再講一遍，這個你不用回答，你這樣整體的表現，我對你的評價越來越低、越來越低，你把自己作賤……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你對憲法沒有認知嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：自作賤變成賴皇帝的小跟班。好，我們來看這個，國防部長請一起上來，我時間剩很少，快一點！"],["主席：麻煩請國防部長備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：AIT的孫曉雅要離開之前講了一句話，叫臺灣人民不要恐慌，面對大陸一直包、一直包，不要恐慌，但是不要麻木不仁，你不覺得我們現在……在部長一上來之後說沒有第一擊欸！顧部長上來以後說沒有第一擊，只有自衛權，就是他打我們，我們才打他，一直說、一直說，結果他們的軍艦來了，潛水艇來了，什麼都來，我們這裡什麼都沒有，還居然搞我們的漢光演習！有一句話很有意思，院長，不知道你有沒有注意到，漢光演習居然是最貼近實戰的，結果還講了一句話，說如果看到裝備故障，軍人的服裝不整、技術不熟練，大家要習以為常。可憐喔！臺灣中華民國的國軍什麼時候這麼「落漆」、落魄？部長，你們怎麼會定一個守則說，看到這樣的情況不要見怪不怪？我的感覺，你這個方法、這樣的講法只是討拍而已，是你們官員講的、你們司長級講的。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們因為實戰化的訓練，採24小時實兵、實時、實地、實裝作業連續方式演練，來檢測實戰化訓練的成果。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題啊，你沒有回答我的問題啊！"],["顧部長立雄：在這個過程當中有服……"],["賴委員士葆：服裝不整、裝備壞了……"],["顧部長立雄：服裝有些……因為在五天四夜的過程當中，如果有任何服儀不整的情況，我們要求指揮官或者各級的引導幹部不能對這個加以處分。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！院長……"],["顧部長立雄：另外就是裝備的部分，我們就是要……"],["賴委員士葆：我們的國軍變得這麼落魄……"],["顧部長立雄：根據實際的狀況來進行實戰化的演練，不要再拘泥於形式主義。"],["賴委員士葆：演習最重要的就是對抗，部長……"],["顧部長立雄：要用實際的妥善率來進行這樣的實戰化訓練。"],["賴委員士葆：現在已經不錄音了啦！"],["主席：好……"],["賴委員士葆：今天參謀總長沒有來，請問你，部長先不要離開，以後你到外交及國防委員會備詢都要帶參謀總長嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，根據釋字第461號解釋，參謀總長只有列席備詢，被邀請的情況下才會去，不然的話，應該都是我去。"],["賴委員士葆：這一次他不是被邀請，是你請他去的？"],["顧部長立雄：不是，是召委邀請他……"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長、國防部的備詢。接下來我們請登記第2號黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra 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going on?"},{"start":169.089,"end":169.509,"text":"TFD嘛是吧?"},{"start":169.509,"end":169.669,"text":"TFN?"},{"start":176.857,"end":187.221,"text":"為什麼執行長沒有辦法產生?請問有沒有接到外國駐台灣的單位給你的關係?有沒有?沒有。美國的MED也沒有。請問你知不知道全世界世界民主運動大會今年在哪裡舉辦?"},{"start":208.527,"end":209.947,"text":"賴士葆賴士葆賴士葆賴"},{"start":237.878,"end":259.523,"text":"我們外交委員會大概13位（十三位你都一個一個拜訪的嗎（我就是盡可能啦因為我一些委員公出比較忙（其中有幾三這大三你沒有去報過的（有我有跟院長（有嗎（的隨乎有留到還沒有安排上（有嗎沒有嗎喔 院長我沒講錯嗎沒有啊（"},{"start":260.967,"end":287.567,"text":"你心裡被卓榮台的憤怒轉移到韓國瑜的身上。 我替院長叫去。 如果院長有空我隨時一定會去跟院長請議。 倒是這樣啊。 我當這麼久的立委。 部長來不來我都無所謂。 但是他是院長不一樣。 你不去院長看。 其他委員你都去看了。 院長不去看什麼意思?"},{"start":287.567,"end":287.927,"text":"你要是國會。"},{"start":289.483,"end":294.664,"text":"報告委員我有去看院長喔。（賴士葆報告委員我有請那個院長的隨乎幫我聯繫啦因為這個時間上沒有辦法排好。（賴士葆那我以後跟委員一起去。（賴士葆"},{"start":315.429,"end":331.762,"text":"這個你不用看我,我不是外交委員會的,你要看院長。 院長是國防委員會委員捏!他是國防委員會委員捏!所以你看昨天他就有當院長,你就沒當院長了,差你幾樣!結果民主基金會做什麼你也不知道!"},{"start":331.762,"end":336.766,"text":"今年的時間民主運動大會在哪裡?在約翰尼斯堡,你也不知道!"},{"start":336.766,"end":337.927,"text":"你是普通做假的!"},{"start":338.885,"end":343.711,"text":"叫做世界民主高峰會的很多個。 最近就是以拜登為主召開的那一個在韓國。"},{"start":357.587,"end":359.088,"text":"世界民主運動大會我們for democracy"},{"start":385.729,"end":408.758,"text":"WMD這以前在臺灣舉辦過今年度是在今年是跟我們TFD跟美國MED共同主辦在2022的時候主辦過2020年2020年就要在預案理事堡10月20日到22號你完全不知道"},{"start":409.724,"end":425.133,"text":"好,你要感應民主基金會的運作,你是憑哪一頂啊?就憑你叫林佳龍?不是!憑你是民進黨,不能可以講清楚!我可以講齁,民主基金會的副董事長,民主基金會的副董事長,民主基金會副董事長是小禹民主基金會董事長,董事長是在這。你們就一路卡,時間你也卡,人選你也卡,你什麼時候可以考定?"},{"start":440.765,"end":456.585,"text":"那個董事會的這個決定是敦請我們韓院長董事長主持來這個提名那董事會會行同意權可以提早再開可以提早再開以此董事會決定如執行長的人選嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":457.906,"end":485.735,"text":"應該尊重董事長,他可以召集董事會。我們下禮拜就召開,下禮拜就召開,這個補起來,因為國外的駐台單位已經倒霉掉了,特別是NEF,美國國家民主基金會倒霉掉,他說我要跟你們補起來。我跟委員報告,因為那是假訊息啦,那個有人操作的啦,就通過媒體放出來。實行長啊。事實上我們跟那個美國的民主基金會,我們聯繫管道很好。"},{"start":486.235,"end":511.876,"text":"你請我回吧我都知道你只要想當官想取代他不好好認真努力啦民主基金會部長你聽我一句話先不要走部長先不要走先不要走你聽我講一句話就好了你沒用這樣的卡沒問題對不起民主基金會錢不多1.8億不到2億我們立法院就好好死守你們"},{"start":513.086,"end":526.908,"text":"同時事後你們外交部預算,馬上就預算審預算了,我們看著辦,走著想要看著辦,這樣欺負韓國瑜,你看著好了,欺負韓國瑜等於欺負立法院,這個是欺負立法院的國民黨團,我們絕對全力做到後盾。"},{"start":536.208,"end":562.245,"text":"這個總統啊賴清德總統到現在為止我沒有看到總統啊Where is the president of 賴清德It's gone 不見了他就是民進黨的主席啊昨天軍禮他也在代表中華民國國人跟政權歡迎友邦的總理我沒有講叫你講你不要講話好不好讓我把這個講完因為我時間太少了"},{"start":564.295,"end":586.214,"text":"外面共軍鬧台 總統大搞內鬥 根據憲法44條 總統有權力協調5月 大家有權力協調一下 他不要協調了直接對幹 總統不見了 只見了民進黨的主席叫賴清德 結果呢 太多 太多"},{"start":586.929,"end":610.668,"text":"TA、IBE、TAI、NAS、CHAT、GBT我們國共會發展出來的他說什麼注意看喔他說總統發動抗議並號召各機關共同反對國會通過的重大法案可能被視為獨裁皇帝行為但是皇帝啊NPO帝王啊"},{"start":615.814,"end":635.763,"text":"你不要講話,我現在講話,我就不會叫你回答,因為你不是,你不是來心得。 在看你,你既然想講,讓你來看這個東西。 憲法正確條款,第三條第二項第二款,你自己也講過啊,說覆議不過怎麼辦,覆議不過我就接受,沒有辭職的現象,你講什麼,對不對?"},{"start":637.697,"end":656.347,"text":"是嘛!但是,我憲法裡面定的這麼清楚,原來47條,現在是徵修條款,改了47條之後要辭職。徵修條款說不要辭職,但是要接受。既然你接受了,你還提什麼死刑?提討一項嗎?"},{"start":657.868,"end":684.899,"text":"人格錯亂啊先不要急我的真正感覺就是你追隨賴皇帝安普洛賴一起加入追殺在野黨的行列他一聲令下調動你行政院調動檢察院調動立憲黨團一起追殺在野黨讓台灣變成一個紮紮實實的獨裁帝制國家可能啊你可以講給你講30秒"},{"start":688.846,"end":713.496,"text":"委員你剛剛跟林部長說欺負韓院長就是欺負立法院剛剛你那一句話對總統不禮貌對國家不禮貌我提出復議是因為自愛難行既然他沒有過我認為從憲法上他就是違憲不可行你提出復議就是違憲憲法規定你要接受啊You got to accept"},{"start":714.349,"end":720.293,"text":"你就接受而已啊,你怎麼可以提復議呢?復議,復議代表你不接受啊復議是因為自愛難行如果自愛難行的話,你可以提實現,但是你不要提復議我認為自愛難行當然可以提復議啊而且你提復議輸了,你不要下台,然後現在提實現"},{"start":737.523,"end":737.963,"text":"發言委員：賴士葆"},{"start":757.998,"end":780.995,"text":"你要接受,既然接受你提什麼覆議?你告訴我提什麼覆議?因為自愛難行啊,我認為自愛難行大院不接受。我認為違憲不可行,我請求司法大法官會議來處理。提覆議你開一開嘛,你怎麼有臉在提覆議?你都,不是,你覆議都輸了怎麼有臉提四憲呢?四憲可以總統提,可以。總統提可以。對不對?經常一提可以,夠了啦。那是跟總統講不夠啊。阿前老師講。"},{"start":787.8,"end":804.976,"text":"賴清德皇帝做了這事情是最壞的事。 再一次用這種方式來對總統不禮貌,我絕對不能接受。 我講話你不要插嘴。 但是你不禮貌我就不能接受。 我說不禮貌很禮貌,賴清德皇帝很禮貌啊。 稱呼他皇帝也知道。 一個遵照憲法的總統怎麼會被你稱呼為皇帝呢?"},{"start":804.976,"end":807.718,"text":"皇帝啊,他行為就是皇帝啊。 我們可以看喔。"},{"start":809.168,"end":826.257,"text":"他叫監察院然後大法官都是你們提名的大概15個人8個人就可以開會一個人當主席7個人4個人就可以決定就把我們跟掉了4個人推翻113個人的決議我們的國外改革無法民進黨版本上的事成"},{"start":828.49,"end":828.83,"text":"麻煩請國防部長備詢"},{"start":853.642,"end":877.511,"text":"孫小營還要離開之前AIT的他講了一句話叫臺灣人民不要恐慌面對大陸一直包一直包不要恐慌但是不要麻木不忍你不覺得我們現在在邱部長一上來之後說沒有第一級耶邱國正整個要郭部長上來沒有第一級只有自衛權的第一級他打我們我們再打他"},{"start":878.391,"end":901.127,"text":"一直說一直說,結果他們的軍艦來了,這個艦來了,潛水艇來了,什麼都來,啊我們這裡什麼都沒有,還居然搞我們的海關演習。有一句話很有意思啊,院長你一定要注意喔,海關演習居然是最貼近實戰的,結果還講了一句話,說如果看到裝備故障,"},{"start":903.871,"end":904.111,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":977.823,"end":978.263,"text":"主席"},{"start":1005.029,"end":1012.805,"text":"謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長國防部的備詢。接下來我們請登記第二號黃仁委員質詢。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}