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請好 那請張 張局長請"},{"start":2269.82,"end":2292.613,"text":"在我們那個四三四的條文對照表,我想主項從第五條開始。第五條,第一個大概是我們會把那個開發型這個定義把它刪除掉。所以第五款的,第十五款就不見了。那因為將來在49之三,它還是有一些相關的實質規範內容會再存在,所以刪除那個定義是不受影響的。"},{"start":2293.813,"end":2315.868,"text":"這是第一點的部分。那第二點就是吳委員跟陳一貞委員有建議的這個公共建設這個部分。那我們建議是不用在條文裡面特別去敘述。將來只要在說明欄去敘述就可以了。因為表達到我們有重視這方面公共建設的這個事項就可以了。所以我們建議維持原來的條文。"},{"start":2316.548,"end":2342.493,"text":"另外吳立法跟陳醫生委員有建議到第五條的第十二項不動產的部分要不要可以單獨分離附屬的設施定義要不要連結在一起我們建議條文要保留將來到我們在說明欄裡面再做序名我們目前所建議的這種附屬的定義設施的概念是什麼意思這樣應該可以表達到原來委員的建議是這樣"},{"start":2343.632,"end":2370.441,"text":"那就按行政院的提案修正通過吧。嗨,對其二項十二款的橋樑應改為橋樑正面木製旁嘛。好。OK。好。那第五條就這樣照行政院提案修正通過。建議條文。提案吧。按經管會的這個建議條文修正通過。好。好,現在改一下。"},{"start":2372.338,"end":2376.842,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員"},{"start":2392.745,"end":2393.626,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":2414.256,"end":2437.376,"text":"對於這個徵定第49條之三的部分按照經管會建議條文通過,有沒有意見?就是不放入社會住宅?本來就沒有了。社會住宅本來就不是在這邊處理的。接下來徵定第49條之十一"},{"start":2440.244,"end":2441.825,"text":"二十一頁這個部分"},{"start":2463.906,"end":2481.038,"text":"財政部有看他們的意見怎麼樣,我們也要尊重他,因為這部分我們只是行政院版本來方式的建議。來,雙書長請。是,報告委員,那我們還是建議採行政院版本,就有兩個原因。第一個是因為委員建議的是要把盈利系列貨配"},{"start":2482.038,"end":2495.594,"text":"這個短…我們講的貨幣利息所得是要分離課稅那目前我們的盈利事業基本上都沒有分離課稅這樣的規定主要有兩個原因第一個因為我們盈利事業它是可以有當年度盈虧戶底的規定跟後延10年虧存扣除規定"},{"start":2496.835,"end":2498.616,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":2532.77,"end":2542.939,"text":"財政部財政部嗎?宋署長請我們財政部這邊做一個說明現在瑞子和所持有的土地目前我們大概統計大概主要是在雙北跟桃園"},{"start":2543.74,"end":2570.407,"text":"那因為委員介入的條文是說他基金的土地他不要用累進課稅全部用單一稅率千分之十來課那這會影響到地方政府的財政收入那大家現在也都在討論說地方政府財政收入夠不夠的問題那現在又目前又只有那幾個縣市那這幾個縣市一定會覺得沒辦法去承受這樣的稅損所以署長你還是建議照行政院的條文對我們建議照行政院版的條文"},{"start":2570.947,"end":2600.166,"text":"好,那請問各位委員,照行政院提案通過,有沒有意見?好,沒有意見,通過。接下來,第49條之19。這也是財政部的。對,財政部,那請副部長。是,那我跟委員報告,因為49條之19跟18是不一樣的。18它是新設一個基金,然後把原來的吸收合併,它本身是整個去蓋瓜承受。但49條之19這種是兩個基金,它本來不一樣,它合併成一個。"},{"start":2600.926,"end":2620.062,"text":"目前所有的合併都要做一個結算的動作,所以它不是所謂的非屬課稅範圍的問題,而是要依稅法證明所的稅問題,所以我們建議按照行政院版的條文通過。好,蘇組長說是按照行政院提案這個版本通過,各位有沒有意見?沒有意見通過。好,第111條。"},{"start":2622.391,"end":2645.627,"text":"這是配合49條之三的條文聯動。那我們就按照經管會的建議條文通過。好,每一件通過。接下來我們不動產條例的部分條文修正草案。來,我們保留的條文是第17條。那近負惡毒的病案協商是第62跟64條。來。"},{"start":2649.945,"end":2672.032,"text":"首先針對17條的部分那17條的部分的話本來這邊委員有建議是在就是序文的地方我們這邊是建議跟投信投顧法一樣就是不得投資與住宅法第三條第一款所定的住宅所以先於是按照行政院的條文"},{"start":2674.639,"end":2699.025,"text":"應該是金管會建議的條文。有關於第17條,我們就按照金管會建議條文通過。有沒有意見?沒有意見,通過。來,那待會有請。主委,我想是不是在針對了這個住宅法的第三條,那就是說這個本法用詞的定義,住宅到底有沒有含社會住宅?"},{"start":2699.962,"end":2710.325,"text":"來,那也要請內政部來解釋,還是內政部專委?張專委還是何專委?張專委請。剛才針對賴委員的這個提問,請說明。麥克風麻煩。"},{"start":2723.144,"end":2744.729,"text":"是有包含社會住宅就是我們現在住宅法的這個第三條規定當中是這樣子有包含社會住宅有明確嘛那你可不可以跟他說明一下就是有明確含社會住宅那如果說這一次本席我是主張啦我是主張就是社會住宅應該是納進來就是在這一次就是我們的修法的部分"},{"start":2745.589,"end":2759.735,"text":"那如果我們就是用就是文字上社會住宅我們用文字上給他排除的話這一個法源是不是用?要排除就當社會住宅可以進來這個部分?對對對這樣子的話呢就這樣子一個修正啦"},{"start":2767.969,"end":2792.109,"text":"但是其實我們目前我們社會住宅用瑞士的這個機會是不是其實比較不高啊?就是因為我們必須要創造更多的一個投資的一個工具。這個我剛剛就強調了嘛,是我的一個主張嘛。那如果就是說,我們在這個...政策面的部分還是請那個張局長來解釋好了好不好?我們請金管化解釋,他法條解釋就好。政策面我們還是請金管化這邊來進行解釋好了。"},{"start":2793.69,"end":2814.176,"text":"為什麼社會住宅沒有納入一個主要因素?其實上次有討論過。對,這個部分其實在驗版當時在規劃的時候就考慮到說因為他怕有產王的問題,所以我們就不把社會住宅納進去。所以當時是有討論過。所以驗版的時候就不把社會住宅納進去。所以我們現在條文是看不到有社會住宅這個話題。"},{"start":2815.316,"end":2815.517,"text":"林楚茵、林委員請"},{"start":2825.54,"end":2826.02,"text":"本院委員郭國文等16人擬具"},{"start":2846.113,"end":2857.368,"text":"讓青年首構能夠檢踢他的房貸壓力但是美意就因為幾個所謂的害群之馬的案例那麼新青安現在變成是回過頭來要重新檢視當時本席是認為從"},{"start":2860.772,"end":2888.57,"text":"百萬要提升到一千萬然後從三十拉到四十其實這都是因為蛋黃區跟蛋白區的差異我們也不希望說好像變成是稍微接近蛋黃區一點的買不到那麼為什麼我會拉到這個有關於新青安的問題就是我們現場在座的大家都知道REIT它是一個投資性的商品也就是說我們本身是讓它用證券化的方式去投資這些比較龐大的物件"},{"start":2889.29,"end":2912.549,"text":"則希望活絡創造更多的這個投資的商品但是他既然投資他就要獲利可是大家都知道社會住宅它的用意是什麼就是跟新清安一樣是協助在經濟上相對比較弱勢的人能夠在合理的價格在合理的地區居住能夠成豬他們可以負擔得起的住宅"},{"start":2913.75,"end":2927.263,"text":"一邊是居住正義、房價正義一邊是獲利當兩者衝突跟矛盾的時候如果出現了這樣的案例的時候那麼我們今天修法如果把這個門打開那麼未來我們可能就要承擔"},{"start":2928.484,"end":2928.624,"text":"二、本院委員郭"},{"start":2948.562,"end":2948.782,"text":"二、本院委員郭"},{"start":2963.914,"end":2990.529,"text":"不放進社會住宅而根據住宅法的第三條規定本來就是有三個定義住宅、社會住宅跟公益出租人我建議在現在打房的經濟大原則之下尤其是最近房價又高漲請大家三思我還是認為必須要把一定的線先踩住然後REIT是一件好事我也不希望REIT在大眾不了解的情況底下REIT又被耽擱"},{"start":2992.72,"end":3008.586,"text":"我補充一下我想我跟楚茵在最大的一個差別就是說社宅它不是住宅就是社宅它其實是一個公共的建設那楚茵認為就是說社會住宅它的錢的來源"},{"start":3009.986,"end":3011.447,"text":"三、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員"},{"start":3038.127,"end":3065.189,"text":"大大公股銀行我們借了4千億4千億給這個住都中心來蓋那等於說我們政府已經就是投入了4千億那這個會不會造成政府的一個舉債政府的一個舉債那在這裡我再特別請教就是說這個4千億是不是已經動波了那每個月的利息是多少錢這個誰有辦法回答我"},{"start":3069.011,"end":3089.409,"text":"內政部專委但是就是說17條第五款有個其他經主管機關核准投資或運用資標的這個條文那或許我們社會主權如果真的有需要用到的時候可以用這個條文由這個主管機關他"},{"start":3090.23,"end":3092.132,"text":"我告訴你我查過這個資料了我們已經開始這個那個就是4000億已經動波了每年我們要支付3.6億現在就是我們每年都要支付3.6億的利息"},{"start":3108.81,"end":3133.871,"text":"所以我主張就是說用律使的錢這個建設會加快還有就是說政府不用舉債你們想到他有可能這個四千億他可能未來也是政府的一個黑洞、一個負債那為什麼不用這個民間的一個能量那我們多了更多的一個工具讓這個社會住宅可以做得更好"},{"start":3135.024,"end":3163.073,"text":"民間的部分社會住宅需要資金的部分除了連帶之外他還可以發行債券相關部會都有在處理而且上一次的之前的內政部的政務次長花次其實也說過那時候就有討論到是要發行綠色債券的部分一兆元的部分所以資金的部分老實說依照目前台灣資金這麼豐盛的情況底下要取得這些資金並不是非常的困難那重點其實是在於說那個現在REACH的部分他主要目的是在投資"},{"start":3164.454,"end":3177.055,"text":"投資要獲利,獲利的情況底下社會住宅標的是屬於比較社會公益,就像林楚茵林委員剛剛所講的一樣的道理,並不是在比較不夠那麼商品化,如果過度的商品化可能就會變成炒作的標的。"},{"start":3179.704,"end":3184.346,"text":"我個人是覺得就是說這個借錢都要還啦那你這個這個會變成是一個很大的一個困境"},{"start":3207.235,"end":3227.575,"text":"主席委員來再補充說明一下,因為他好像有點沒有對焦的感覺。對,我覺得兩邊可能沒有對焦上,就是我相信社會住宅的建設的這些包括他的資金、他的Fund不應該是由REIT來出,他本來應該本身就有資金,只是說他開放讓民間可以有機會投資進來,那麼因為投資就是要獲利。"},{"start":3228.075,"end":3252.977,"text":"那麼對於現在的一般投資人來講我擔心的就是你把社會住宅放進來那剛剛內政部有講了其實裡面有附帶的條件不是說完全就把它排除如果必要的時候是不是可以放進來你剛剛內政部你所講的是哪一條第五款嘛對不對是那言下之意就是到時候主管機關金管會這裡如果因為我相信社宅"},{"start":3254.585,"end":3279.78,"text":"因為我覺得社宅齁這個全國各縣市都有社宅啦那每一個社宅的狀況也不太一樣啦那你今天如果把全國的社宅都放入一個可以成為衍生性金融商品商品化的標的的時候我個人還是先存疑就是你怎麼樣去面對外界的質疑說社宅也可以變成是"},{"start":3280.836,"end":3293.146,"text":"不動產證券化的商品的當中的其中一個這個你只要簡略的去解釋那我覺得就說不過去了所以顯然社宅可以"},{"start":3294.195,"end":3297.956,"text":"擬具〈證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案案〉案〈證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":3323.284,"end":3339.659,"text":"設宅可以投資可以炒作然後可以獲利那這個連結到到時候不一樣的地區的設宅的租金的時候我舉一個例子臺北市這個大同區他就有一間設宅一個月要四萬多塊"},{"start":3340.479,"end":3355.075,"text":"當初剛推出來的時候就引發了媒體的爭論跟討論覺得哇四萬多塊這麼貴啊是誰租的去可是那個就是台北市的淡黃區那如果這個淡黃區以這個個案我不知道他現在他的到底他的月租金是多少"},{"start":3355.475,"end":3371.428,"text":"但當他一旦要做合理的調漲的時候那會不會被誤會為那是因為他已經成為商品化證券化商品化那他要獲得一定的獲利所以他必須要利潤要回收所以我認為社宅還是應該站在公益性的部分先保留"},{"start":3372.429,"end":3375.011,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員"},{"start":3399.564,"end":3400.705,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":3426.034,"end":3432.983,"text":"我都是想就是說有哪一個單位可以跟本席解釋得清楚一點。我也想聽聽這個經管會。誰要解釋一下?說一下。"},{"start":3447.717,"end":3463.123,"text":"新北市社會住宅案例是一個VOT案。民間是完全用自償的方式,所以租金是由民間機構直接收取。"},{"start":3472.588,"end":3473.128,"text":"我…我是…我是這樣子啦"},{"start":3510.262,"end":3523.554,"text":"那個住宅的定義不只是社會住宅,它如果第三條放進去的話,就是連同一般的住宅都可能會拿來做炒作的標的啦。對啦,就是民間的部分呢,如果一般的大樓都可以綠色的話的話,那真的是……"},{"start":3524.955,"end":3543.433,"text":"事情會很大條,真的不一樣。你如果想像所有的這些大樓都拿來做股票標的的話,那個房地產的這個炒作資金的集中度會越來越高。金管會要不要補充說明一下,跟賴委員說明一下。"},{"start":3546.656,"end":3549.218,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":3575.535,"end":3576.596,"text":"二、本院委員郭國文等16人擬具"},{"start":3603.627,"end":3610.251,"text":"副副副"},{"start":3618.685,"end":3642.309,"text":"那也可以接受嗎?謝謝,謝謝好,那我們這一條第17條就按照金管會的這個建議條文通過好,接下來還有第62條跟64條那先跟大家說明一下第64條的部分少一個條文的條第11款的部分少一個條文的條跟大家說明一下好,第62條、64條金管會請說明一下"},{"start":3647.349,"end":3670.209,"text":"好,那這個62條跟64條基本上我們是配合就是17條的修正條文所以把62跟64的相關的原因上開的條次一起修正所以我們這邊是會參採委員建議的條文上好,那這一條就按照經管會的建議條文通過有沒有意見?好,沒有意見通過,來好,那第64條"},{"start":3674.69,"end":3698.57,"text":"您到金管會要不要再補充說明一下?六十四條的部分也是配合二十二條條文修正的相次的變動所以修正六十四條原因傷害條文的相次所以我們會參考會參採委員建議所以金管會也並同修正上"},{"start":3699.17,"end":3701.633,"text":"請大家稍坐一下,我們等一下結論宣告"},{"start":3723.416,"end":3728.259,"text":"因為剛剛有一場會議是說會計師公會或四大等等他們對於說這個WiZ就是早就必須應該推動的"},{"start":3748.14,"end":3770.649,"text":"那也希望說這個組委新任大概多月齁我們在這方面包括未來的公件齁包括未來的一些比較大型的推動的商場等等齁可以比較有效率的把它集合在一起齁方便最大的功效齁讓一些機構法人甚至國外的法人齁"},{"start":3771.397,"end":3772.358,"text":"二、本院委員郭二、本院委員郭"},{"start":3799.218,"end":3801.119,"text":"我們在議事人在整理協商結論,請大家稍後。"},{"start":3825.919,"end":3830.483,"text":"郭國文等16人擬具、「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案案案 案"},{"start":3836.156,"end":3844.542,"text":"他們家也是那種很輕鬆的支撐的?對,對,對。他是養尊處優,因為他們家是賣紅棗的。你不知道?他們家賣紅棗?"},{"start":3859.115,"end":3860.999,"text":"若在我們那個年代賣紅棗應該都是…"},{"start":3868.018,"end":3896.124,"text":"好,我們黨團的協商結論如下,一、第十七條照協調主題,第一,法案名稱本院委員郭國文等16人擬具不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案的案。二、院會晉附二讀並案協商委員郭國文等19人擬具不動產證券化條例第62條及第64條條文修正案。"},{"start":3897.064,"end":3922.694,"text":"協商結論一、第十七條按照委員郭國文等16人提案修正通過。二、第六十二條照委員郭國文等19人提案通過。三、第六十四條照委員郭國文等19人提案修正通過。四、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。好,來還有一個"},{"start":3925.437,"end":3926.658,"text":"總共有兩個法案,稍等一下。"},{"start":3950.428,"end":3950.628,"text":"主席"},{"start":3967.394,"end":3990.529,"text":"主席,我想這個不影響協商條例,那我再補充說明一下就是說我們有新的這個一個投資的工具開始的時候是不是也應該要做到投資人的一個保護那我希望就是說在執法中必須要那個明文規定就是受益人的保護機制至少每年應該要召開一個受益人的一個會議"},{"start":3991.971,"end":3997.58,"text":"郭國文等16人擬具、「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案案 案件、證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文"},{"start":4000.401,"end":4022.45,"text":"對,確實那個之前在審查討論的過程當中,賴委員有提過齁,類似的受議員會議齁的頻率齁,要把他定期化的說法啦。那因為現在剛上路嘛,你們要不要再跟賴委員補充一下,之所以為什麼你們條文會這樣子?對,剛才委員所講的這個部分,我們將來在執法就會規範一年一次的概念,對外來揭露。"},{"start":4024.158,"end":4024.178,"text":"羅委員請"},{"start":4036.241,"end":4061.876,"text":"謝謝,對於這個REITS的部分,就是我想請教一下,因為國外一般都沒有限制所謂的專業投資人,好像國內是超過100個,必須要100個以內,超過的話就會有所限制。現階段以及未來發展,會不會對於機構投資人,或者是說自然人有特別的限制?"},{"start":4064.264,"end":4065.31,"text":"三、本院委員郭"},{"start":4069.663,"end":4093.334,"text":"綠池是公募的,如果是公募的綠池就會掛在交易所上市目前對投資人的身份不會有限制但是如果是私募的私募的因為所有私募的商品因為就是投資比較有彈性但是他對應募人投資人的資格條件就會有要求就是專業投資人的資格條件就是有包括例如專業機構投資人高淨值投資法人專業投資治安人就是要"},{"start":4098.516,"end":4100.898,"text":"國外的一些,像英國、美國、新加坡,他們對這方面有這樣的限制嗎?"},{"start":4119.276,"end":4140.278,"text":"國外一樣,就是其實國外管理規範一樣,針對公募跟私募都有不同的要求,因為公募就是掛在對一般的投資人去募集跟銷售,通常是不會有一些資格,投資人資格的條件只是落實在一般的KYC。我知道了,其實這一個投資標的對很多人來說都是新的投資標的。"},{"start":4141.899,"end":4162.671,"text":"將來我們在財政委員會我真的建議可以用一個專題報告等他們執法完整之後來做一個說明會更加的完整因為確實公募跟私募確實是不一樣你資金來源的管道跟投資人資格的限定就會有所差別然後因為很多是授權於執法的部分那執法的部分包括公募跟私募它在公件的比例也會不同"},{"start":4164.072,"end":4192.349,"text":"所以說這個部分都需要有一些時間讓他們授權他們執法之後來做一個說明執法上我們會看到比較多的建議可以讓這個投資標準更加的完整風險的更加的降低好不好OK好那接下來我們另一個黨團協商的這個結論協商主題是行政院函請審議本院委員郭國文等16人擬具《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案》等二案及委員林楚茵等17人擬具《證券投資"},{"start":4193.429,"end":4211.426,"text":"信託及顧問法第一條、第二條及第三條之一條文修正草案案。協商結論一、第五條、增訂第四十九條之三、增訂四十九條之十一及第十一百一十一條函說明均照協商內容通過"},{"start":4212.347,"end":4235.034,"text":"如後赴。二、增定第49條之14、增定49條之15及增定49條之19均照行政院提案通過。三、其餘均照審查會審查結果通過。好,沒有意見,那我們就通過。好,我們閃一下齁。"},{"start":4238.652,"end":4246.117,"text":"郭國文等16人擬具、「證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案案案 案。"},{"start":4263.509,"end":4265.85,"text":"我們今天的協商就到此結束,散會謝謝"},{"start":4297.858,"end":4308.848,"text":"謝謝!"},{"start":4316.735,"end":4321.638,"text":"三、本院委員郭三、本院委員郭三、本院委員郭"},{"start":4338.87,"end":4339.83,"text":"董事長董事長董事長董事長"}]}},{"id":"16041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16041","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685cf5366a7ae6bcaf75b00801740f9d8c2627684c85f64cd7bbe26c60548ffef9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:03:06+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T13:04:00+08:00","duration":14454,"影片長度":"04:00:54","委員發言時間":"09:03:06 - 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media上面加強了跟我們的互動包括了"},{"start":2102.884,"end":2120.212,"text":"今年在出席利基電跟印度方面動土的典禮上有特別的提到台灣方面有領袖參加視訊觀禮另外在4月的時候也在X平台慰問我們的花蓮症災6月的時候也"},{"start":2122.293,"end":2136.565,"text":"複謝賴總統祝賀他勝選的貼文所以我們可以觀察到因為這樣子的趨勢再加上其他各領域的合作印度對於這個合作協定是非常的期待那麼外交部未來也會"},{"start":2137.526,"end":2166.54,"text":"本於職長配合我們主政機關繼續推動台印度雙方的各層級的合作以及推動這個今天要審查的這個備忘錄後續的相關工作以上報告完畢好謝謝外交部的一個報告那那個部長還沒到是不是那署長也要待會報告嗎好不好先請蔡署長"},{"start":2167.355,"end":2177.072,"text":"先代為報告好了因為等一下部長會來嘛 質詢的時候他會再回答我們先請那個勞動力發展署我們蔡孟良署長代為報告"},{"start":2180.869,"end":2203.657,"text":"主席各位委員首先勞動部非常感謝我們今天主席各位委員及各位女士先生針對我們今天委員會所審查駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄中英及印地文文本進行報告那進行委員也給予指教"},{"start":2204.657,"end":2228.618,"text":"其實我們臺灣受到高齡少子化的影響因為基層勞動力的不足我們的移工的主要來源國目前也僅止於像泰國、菲律賓、印尼跟越南的四個國家因為這樣的一個依存度的風險大院及僱主團體過去也長年也希望勞動部能夠積極會同外交部來開發新的移工來源國"},{"start":2229.679,"end":2253.964,"text":"那印度因為不受到一個地緣政治的影響那同時也積極的來促進印度勞工能夠與我方來寫合作來台工作那事實上這樣的一個合作的意向也符合雙方的需求所以我們雙方在今年的2月16日也依照條約地解法的規定完成簽署的合作備忘錄那在4月2日經過行政院同意被查4月3日也送請大院來查照"},{"start":2254.924,"end":2276.294,"text":"那臺印度的MOU總共全文是13條那其實這整個條文內容絕對是基於雙方的平等互惠的原則我們進行勞務合作那主要條文做以下的報告那主要在第二條裡面也就是大家外界所關切的我們在招募印度勞工來臺的職類跟名額完全是依照我方的需求而決定"},{"start":2277.054,"end":2303.725,"text":"那在第8條部分我們就現有的招募制度意外我們也共同來推動直接聘僱計畫那未來透過直接聘僱的一個雙方各自設立專責的窗口以及選工制度的一個建制之下能夠達到這個職聘的一個計畫的推動那同時我們在第10條針對外界關切的就是失聯移工在台的一些收容遣返可能衍生的一些費用的問題"},{"start":2304.925,"end":2318.816,"text":"這一部分在印度方也未來會承擔這樣的一個清償的責任同時我們為了要讓整個臺印度的一個勞務合作促進社會對話能夠凝聚共識我們勞動部在113年3月1號跟5月2號那也經過兩次的專家團體的一個諮詢會議邀請了我們熟悉臺灣與印度的勞工事務的專家學者"},{"start":2329.625,"end":2341.654,"text":"主持團體、移工團體、仲介團體及經濟部等相關部會,共同針對印度移工的素質、語言、宗教文化、治安等議題相關意見,初步也達成相關共識,包括"},{"start":2345.737,"end":2365.091,"text":"因為印度勞工其實輸出到全世界各國整個數值是受到肯定那我們是其實可以參考其他國家的引進模式那提出雇主的需求跟條件那同時印度依照他的各方的一個產業發展跟人力素質也會協助來提供相關的招募跟培訓那至於相關的行業的開放"},{"start":2366.132,"end":2383.806,"text":"其實我們會審慎而且漸進式的一個處理那我們也採取相關的一些部分行業採小規模的示範方式來引進那同時多數的意見其實也認為因為臺灣我們在引進的移工多年所累積的制度之下除了優先推動職聘制度之外"},{"start":2384.446,"end":2408.018,"text":"那未來我們為了要讓仲介引進這個管道也能夠避免外界對於仲介引進所產生的一個負面影響未來我們會有一些創新變革的一個做法能夠來讓社會各界能安心能夠透過評選來示範那移工團體當然他是主張針對職聘這個制度能夠優先來辦理我想這個部分我們未來再跟臺印度的一個雙邊的工作小組會議我們會列為優先的議題來做一個討論"},{"start":2410.979,"end":2434.646,"text":"那未來臺印度的未來的四大重點工作理念這包含未來我們在小規模事辦尤其在選擇性的行業這個部分我想這個部分會以最大的共識來漸進的推動那另外對於移工具有一定的經驗而且有良好的素質甚至他有一些一定的語言能力包含英文的能力這個部分未來我們會優先的來考慮來做一個開放跟引進"},{"start":2435.606,"end":2459.485,"text":"那同時我們也依照我們大院的期待跟民間團體的一個訴求我們在推動職併制度上面其實在我們的合作備忘錄其實已經明定未來雙方會成立單一窗口同時我們會建立更友善的一個選工制度那另外我們在國內的部分我們也會推動相關的職併服務的一個相關的精進做法那同時在這個未來在整個擴大這個優質的一個"},{"start":2463.008,"end":2486.71,"text":"總結的一個選任部分其實我們會邀請相關的團體我們建立好的一個篩選機制我們讓好的總結能夠來承擔這樣的一個接受僱主委託的一個責任那同時我們要確保我們的社會安定其實印度移工來台之前我們的法律絕對會規定必須要有無染的法律證明就一般所謂的良民證那除此以外其實對他的素質就包含提到的"},{"start":2487.23,"end":2516.013,"text":"相關的學經歷甚至他可能有海外或台商的工作經驗我們這個會把它列為優先的考量那同時來台之後我們會加強法令的一個講習跟訓練同時也會輔導雇主一個相關的友善的管理那對於印度移工來台之後為了要達到一個相關的一個適應其實我們現在在國內已經布建了相關的一個服務的系統包含我們對於這個現有的這個英語相關的語言的一個通譯人才庫我們會跟移民署來合作來擴充"},{"start":2516.934,"end":2542.138,"text":"那同時在入國前後相關的權益講習以及來臺之後我們會實地的訪視然後瞭解他的一個適應的情況這我們都會持續來努力那最後我們勞動部也會持續來邀請社會各界相關的關切團體代表我們持續召開我們相關的諮詢會議我們希望說相關議題在國內達到共識之後我們在未來會跟印度透過工作小組會議來持續來討論來推動雙方的勞務合作以上報告"},{"start":2547.168,"end":2554.511,"text":"好謝謝呃署長的報告那我們呃介紹我們勞動部部長和沛山部長也到現場謝謝部長好有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告那因為今天是呃由衛環委員會跟外交國防聯席哦按照之前"},{"start":2573.977,"end":2589.23,"text":"跟司法法制聯席的慣例這一次縮短大家詢答時間本會委員詢答時間5分鐘列席委員4分鐘不曉得委員有沒有意見這個是參照今年聯席的慣例縮短時間來委員可以表示意見沒有問題"},{"start":2601.806,"end":2625.683,"text":"就大家盡量好不好準時結束,我們還是6加26加2,啊外備還值得辦那就原來都一模一樣,跟聯席都是一樣時間長度怎麼樣?規定委員會的三分鐘,三加一啦那本委員會呢?聯席"},{"start":2633.08,"end":2654.413,"text":"好 那尊重委員本委員會5加2 外委員會3分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於三會前提出 預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案現在我們就請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員質詢麻煩何部長好 我們請部長"},{"start":2666.117,"end":2692.166,"text":"部長早安加快速度部長我們和印度簽訂了這個MOU第8條我還是很重視這個部分因為在之前也跟您討論過應設職聘還有設立單一窗口及選工制度剛剛署長當然是有一些報告可是我想知道的是目前的進度在哪裡勞動部是否已經成立了單一窗口還有已經建立好這個選工機制了嗎或是還只是在規劃的這個階段"},{"start":2695.527,"end":2718.153,"text":"因為我們強調我們是雙軌進行一方面用植品一方面我們也會用平選優質中介是點雙軌所以植片的部分說真的我們現在還在摸索中那麼我們也還在嘗試看是不是有可能這個推動新的植片的方式這是一個非常好機會那個因為"},{"start":2720.454,"end":2737.669,"text":"我以前就是拿資料給部長看過雙軌的結果是民意是雙軌實質是單軌就1%不到的這個職聘那部長為什麼我會問目前的進度因為上個月勞動部有舉行了一個引進勞工這個印度移工的諮詢會議那當中看到勞動部擬定的這個討論提綱我有點訝異啊老實說因為"},{"start":2742.273,"end":2769.421,"text":"例如勞動部問請部長看這個投影片如果採政府對政府基礎基礎職聘我方雇主人力需求如何提供還有由誰處理那移工來台的這個生活適應及這個日常管理由誰處理雇主有協助的需求誰來處理那聘借期滿或因故需要返國的時候誰來處理就是好像都還在問這個非常原始的問題部長我們來假設如果都是透過這個仲介的話那上面這些問題是誰處理的"},{"start":2771.722,"end":2781.07,"text":"國務委員報告,就是在這一次MOU的特色,裡面一條就是我們的第8條,因為印方他"},{"start":2781.892,"end":2783.173,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2803.916,"end":2823.865,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2824.085,"end":2848.592,"text":"好我會來努力好嗎?如果那些問題是仲介做那當然那些剛剛我同樣的問題應該如果是政府來做的話那當然就是政府或勞動部要多擔待嘛是是那第二個問題是更有意思啊如果要參照韓國的執聘制度就是在你們這個那個討論提綱那我方助派這個印度相關辦理人力經費用什麼方式經營或或派駐督導那由誰支援等等這個感覺還是非常原始的問題欸"},{"start":2849.292,"end":2849.692,"text":"韓國的公團的模式"},{"start":2866.766,"end":2888.698,"text":"對,產業公團的模式其實他們是韓國的產業界跟韓國政府合作一起推動行政法人的一個這樣的單位其實我還是強調說因為好不容易有新的來源國那你要用一個大家全世界認為是比較理想有競爭力的制度就是此期實業這是一個非常好的時機那個現在部長你看其實勞動部是有能力做這個居然的居然"},{"start":2893.26,"end":2922.521,"text":"在諮詢會議上有移工團體有指出來韓國的執聘制度順利關鍵就是有一個SPAS的這個系統簡單來說就是把各個部門串起來就是串起來那台灣就差這個系統而已我也要邀請未來如果通過以後我想我必須邀請其他的部會一起來做這個事情這個系統就是我自己有了解包括選工、面試跟簽證這三個那台灣一定有能力這樣處理所以勞動部應該就還沒有進行任何動作的意思"},{"start":2923.121,"end":2944.816,"text":"我跟委員報告我必須等MOU經大院通過以後我們才能往下走部長我還在在強調因為這種做法可以大大簡化執聘的這個程序跟門檻那我們才有競爭力嘛是不是因為明年就要進來啦明年這個未必未必但是你至少要在之前準備好嘛當然所以我覺得下半年就是一個很重要的這個時間啦是是是"},{"start":2947.338,"end":2971.246,"text":"那部長這個上個月諮詢會還有一個結論就是說優先開放在製造業那部長因為我們知道你還有其他的問題要處理比如包括取消80歲老人的這個申請看護免80量表這個是當時您說那個開口破口會是53萬左右那恐怕排擠的重症家庭照顧那您認為如果印度移工也能夠補足這個可能的缺口嗎"},{"start":2972.527,"end":2995.963,"text":"你會不會考慮說家庭看護也可能開放、優先開放印度移工?你有思考過嗎?因為巴士量表這個問題已經存在很久了。可是這應該是兩個問題,抱歉。因為印度移工它適不適合當家庭看護工這也是一個問題。這要經過一段長時期的摸索跟這一個一初期印度移工這個部分會以製造業為主啦。"},{"start":2996.403,"end":2998.945,"text":"但是至於是否會是江林康復工的來源我覺得這有待...是是是"},{"start":3014.079,"end":3040.235,"text":"如果你認為這樣會排擠這個效應或是有人力缺口那其實本黨的這個科主席他競選總統的時候他有提過是不是可能放寬家庭幫傭的申請門檻因為有些民眾就是擔心他家裡的老人長者他是他還沒有到需要照顧看顧的程度但是因為年紀大家裡總是有需要人幫忙打理這個就是他需要的不是看護而是一個家庭幫傭但是請我想部長你可能熟悉這些"},{"start":3041.015,"end":3069.497,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":3069.497,"end":3069.637,"text":"麻煩何部長請部長"},{"start":3100.643,"end":3117.392,"text":"委員好部長早現在事實上在服務業工作的青年佔了75%在青年畢業後三年內從事服務業的比例還是佔了大概70%整體來看的話佔整個服務業裡面大概是15%"},{"start":3124.909,"end":3147.357,"text":"所以看起來這是青年的很重要的工作機會所以服務業事實上比較不贊成來開放移工否則就跟我們的青年在搶工作可是服務業裡邊事實上還包含旅宿業那現在旅宿業看這新聞就知道就勞動部要去開放可是"},{"start":3147.972,"end":3165.713,"text":"學者們事實上比較持反對的意見。為什麼呢?因為勞動部你現在最近事實上研擬修正留用外國中階技術人員的產業別當中要開放我們的觀光旅宿業的聘僱僑外生。所以我想問的是你這個政策考量的是什麼?"},{"start":3166.414,"end":3184.369,"text":"你跟我原報告齁當然其實確實服務業裡面青年占大多數而且低薪這是一個最嚴重的問題所以我一直強調缺工不能等於低薪那麼所謂開放這一個橋外生當房務員這個標題其實是有點過度的解讀啦因為是這樣子"},{"start":3189.773,"end":3218.375,"text":"我在這個開放僑外生的這個制度裡面其實我們尊重的是配合的打開然後還有包括未來工作許可開放讓他申請工作許可我們是著眼於把勞動力留下來然後呢關於中階技術人員開放做防務員這是觀光署的一個提案那麼報給國防會當然我們也樂觀其成當然如果因為這東西是這樣他是有薪資上限的"},{"start":3218.815,"end":3219.976,"text":"為什麼?如果各種服務業未來是不是會不會先比照這樣的辦理?"},{"start":3241.212,"end":3267.684,"text":"篡寬僑外生,最後還是期待未來開放移工。如果剛剛講低薪的話,你應該是從今年如果都在做這行業應該是去提振薪水而不是用移工來取代他啦。我覺得這要去考慮。疫情過後的確我們看到勞動部的數據就足記的那個人力需求的預估大概整個產業都有需求,特別是"},{"start":3268.191,"end":3294.783,"text":"我們的製造業是最大需求可是想要問的是就是說我們的在MOU裏邊臺印的MOU裏邊第二條的協議也是總額跟名額都由臺方決定那入境人數多寡臺灣有主導權所以問一下勞動部這邊未來會是針對於我們的製造業的底下哪一個行業優先來開放"},{"start":3296.471,"end":3310.68,"text":"是電信呢?還是食品加工?還是...我一看電信或食品加工都不是製造,他們算服務業的,對。只就是製造業應該我們經過諮詢會議,像工種這樣的團體,他們是有表達意願的啦。可是我們必須等MOU通過之後,我們要再去訪問這個產業僱主的意見啦。然後讓他們確定到底是哪一個業別是最需要的。"},{"start":3324.628,"end":3330.898,"text":"才能夠開始進行那再來問是你先進來的大概因為說到小規模事辦請問先進來的規模人數大概多少"},{"start":3334.784,"end":3338.968,"text":"對於僱主的優先資格,你如何評選?而且提出來申請的僱主如何知道自己具有優先性?"},{"start":3358.161,"end":3377.616,"text":"這個就是要看產業的需求還有包括他的管理能力就是我們這個要去確認的所以勞動部是不是可以在事辦開始之前應該事先明確的把事辦行業公佈人數、雇主的資格講清楚所以不要讓油鹽來取代事實否則現在謠言滿天飛那再來整個"},{"start":3382.179,"end":3397.795,"text":"台灣事實上是移工的引進國可是難民會發生行蹤不明、醫療、勞資爭議、安置的這些需求那過去來源國當然會基於他保護他的國民的立場在態度上都會積極協助那過去在越南對於"},{"start":3398.676,"end":3419.976,"text":"台灣近內的移工比較少提供支持相較之下印尼跟菲律賓在台灣都設有移工臨時的安置中心那移工的整個如果來源國放手的話所有風險就會台灣承擔所以在這次MOU的臺英MOU文件裏邊在第7條的社會保險負擔跟第10條的行蹤不明的移工收容的負擔上"},{"start":3420.595,"end":3435.503,"text":"印度方都說他會負責最終的擔保責任所以想問說那有沒有比較具體的整個實際服務做法有沒有具體的規劃是這個部分就是印方對我方相當友善跟積極的表現"},{"start":3436.203,"end":3460.997,"text":"我們這次MOU會簽成跟印方非常積極有關係所以我們也很感謝印方對我們的友好那因為他們也在這裡承諾他們願意來負責萬一要發生所謂的無證無證移工的狀況那針對於未來行方不明的勞動部現在在研擬外國仲介保護機制要求外國仲介負擔遣返收容醫療費用"},{"start":3462.097,"end":3486.046,"text":"那要建立停權的機制,這個政策可不可以三個月內可以正式提出嗎?我們盡量來做。好,在勞動部這邊。那為了降低移工的負債造成刑方不明的問題,那勞動部接著應該要規範外國仲介公司仲介費合理收費,部長同意嗎?收費"},{"start":3489.475,"end":3512.688,"text":"這是來源國的問題可能會比較難去規範對方我們只能建議他在我們兩邊雙邊工作會議的時候建議印方這樣子對最後大概還是要問的就是說整個台印MOU第10條本來就要達成配合推動職聘的這個協議然後現在移工團體也都倡議要學習"},{"start":3513.951,"end":3515.812,"text":"委員我們的MOU現在是雙軌的"},{"start":3537.403,"end":3537.423,"text":"陳經輝委員"},{"start":3569.214,"end":3571.079,"text":"主席 各位官員早 我想請何部長 謝謝好 請部長"},{"start":3579.312,"end":3604.323,"text":"好部長去年非典型工作者破了80萬人那所謂的這個臨時性或人力派遣的工作者佔了快60人所以我們這樣子非典型的勞工不斷的攀升除了固定的法令宣導還有勞檢勞動部有想要增加什麼措施嗎您是指外送員的這樣子的權益嗎對是"},{"start":3609.105,"end":3613.547,"text":"政府機關應用勞務承攬參考原則是,你們發布一個政府機關勞動承攬參考原則就是說我們的中央主管機關如果利用這些非典型人力來做事就要定期來稽查人力的廠商要守法所以呢勞動部發動這個"},{"start":3636.916,"end":3663.363,"text":"發布這件事不久以後其實我們這個委員會多位委員包括我就有提案要求說主管的勞動部還有工程會人事總處等等政府內不分大小的單位都要有效的宣導請問目前做的進度如何了那麼我們規劃7月下旬辦研習營然後有三個部會會共同協助採購機關關於勞務採購"},{"start":3666.864,"end":3691.917,"text":"契約依承懶參考原則明定各項勞動權益還有8月也會針對中央機關辦理這一個法制宣導活動那也是三個部會一起所以我們會從明年度的總預算看得出來政府要帶頭來做改善並且你可以承諾說一半以上的機關在明年就可以做到內部至少一次的不定期集合嗎?"},{"start":3693.058,"end":3693.258,"text":"謝謝委員支持"},{"start":3709.946,"end":3725.421,"text":"再來呢因為您近期內也有說要找經濟部合作會利用審查國內的上市上櫃投資案件要求應先派遣瞭解派遣跟勞務承攬的廠商有沒有手法作為採購的評估"},{"start":3727.403,"end":3752.866,"text":"好還說呢跟經濟部也要來履約期間針對派遣員工的勞動條件合法與否來調查稽查更要在公司的年報還有永續報告書中來揭露因為你有發布這樣子的新聞所以許多的公司也很想知道這個細節因為影響他們上市上櫃的條件所以您會不會去修到經濟部主管的公司法"},{"start":3754.167,"end":3776.703,"text":"不可能欸因為委員抱歉公司法是經濟部主管發動方一定要是經濟部我們只能進所以您還是維持在宣導嗎我只能盡量的呼籲然後希望那個企業能夠善盡社會責任這樣子所以其實不會有白紙黑字的管理依據出來事實上"},{"start":3778.104,"end":3803.124,"text":"因為針對上市櫃企業也非我能夠行政命令去對它做是我們只能盡量來呼籲主導永續發展的主要權責是金管會金管會去年也開始做了上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案所以會去推出一個修正版本的上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案2.0所以你這樣子落實把"},{"start":3804.085,"end":3827.812,"text":"派遣員工、非典型員工的勞動條件合法依據的調查、稽查結果您會希望跟經濟部還有金管會溝通如何的落實在他們的永續報告書中嗎?我們現在正在努力希望ESG納入勞權指標這個我們確實也希望能夠得到金管會跟經濟部的支持所以您規劃的時間點大約是?"},{"start":3830.593,"end":3840.778,"text":"我們有跟他們展開平台會議希望能夠大家趕快來協商這樣子好那我們也會再持續關心這樣子的進度謝謝委員我勞動部5月2號有召開諮詢會說共識印度移工人力優先剛有提到了跟很多委員講是製造業的小規模事辦"},{"start":3850.902,"end":3866.35,"text":"可是我們都知道製造業的工作性質多屬於做多少算多少的承攬性質所以開放製造業的印度移工也想要請教部長有沒有可能再製造更多我國非典型就業的人口呢?"},{"start":3868.948,"end":3888.625,"text":"應該不至於欸,因為這個我們的非典就業人口跟我們年輕勞工目前的對,這個跟這個應該是兩件事情所以您覺得印度移工小規模是不會排擠到本國人的應該不至於,對應該不會的"},{"start":3890.026,"end":3913.404,"text":"只是補充我要跟委員報告我們會希望的推動臺印MOU引進印度移工是希望為臺灣的勞動力增加來源而且我們現在勞動力缺乏嘛那大家都喊缺工嘛那麼主要是少子化的問題我們需要增加新的勞動力而且是優質的新的勞動力這樣子"},{"start":3915.165,"end":3933.02,"text":"這個剛剛很多委員也有關心不過都還沒有很仔細的詢問到您您的備忘錄內容呢第8條明文講到說雙軌制嘛雙邊同意推動直接聘僱計畫而且其實你們是說在雙方的法律允許下擴大直接聘僱計畫還會設立單一窗口的"},{"start":3935.723,"end":3948.964,"text":"選工機制而且第二行還有寫到說優先的適用續聘計畫所以您是要真的擴大職聘還是只是應用在移工三年期滿的續聘上"},{"start":3950.066,"end":3967.501,"text":"你的這個雙軌的執聘是想要第一階段就做還是你要續聘的時候才要做?這個意思是說真的實務上現在只能先從續聘計畫先做了那因為事實上跟委員報告執聘制度是很困難的"},{"start":3968.302,"end":3996.63,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3996.63,"end":4020.316,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4020.316,"end":4050.316,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4050.456,"end":4074.09,"text":"那麼他們的其實好的優質的仲介在我們勞動部都是都有列檔案的這都是有可以透過評選然後來好您的這個諮詢會有提到說印度的私人引薦的社群也很也很有可能有這個亂象所以本席也在這邊提醒您可能未來這個管理會需要是是是謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":4078.649,"end":4081.05,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。謝主席,有請我們何部長。請何部長。"},{"start":4102.011,"end":4125.99,"text":"委員好部長好部長早這幾天喔剛過8點就已經標破30度然後呢到9點之後就過35度請問部長今天上班的時候有沒有覺得很熱真的蠻熱的相信委員也是這樣的感覺部長能夠感同身受真的很熱喔事實上去年就已經是有史以來最熱的夏天喔但是今年根據這個歐盟氣候監測服務機構的評估有86%"},{"start":4130.473,"end":4156.669,"text":"的機率會超過去年的紀錄,變成最熱的夏天。那同時在台灣呢,又有這樣子的一個現象,就是都市熱島效應。造成,我們可以看到這個紅色的地方,北北基塔喔,雖然行政區上沒有合併,可是卻變成夏日的高溫帶,變成一片。在這個雙重夾擊之下,無論是長期在戶外工作的員工,或是坐在辦公室上班的這些通勤族喔,都可以感受到炎炎夏日。"},{"start":4157.409,"end":4168.527,"text":"那而且我看未來只會越來越嚴重喔所以我想要請問對於這個高溫所可能對於勞工產生的傷害部長有沒有什麼樣的應對措施"},{"start":4170.149,"end":4190.129,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個治安署在這方面本來已經有法規的修正我請這個副署長來回答一下好不好好跟委員報告在這個部分因為在安全衛生的部分我們在法規現在已經有規定在一個戶外工作者他在僱主"},{"start":4190.809,"end":4218.005,"text":"對於他的這個健康的一個保護措施裡面包括說他要有一個遮蔭或是說要現場要灑水降溫等等一些措施還有一些健康管理的一些措施這目前的治安法的附屬法規已經有明定我知道說得很好制度方面我大概都可以理解勞工從事在這個外從事工作發生中暑還有熱疾病這些職業疾病是不是可以罰款對不對"},{"start":4219.085,"end":4234.16,"text":"對嘛,可以罰款,罰到15萬喔。但是我想要問的就是說這樣的罰款真的對僱主有督導的效果嗎?因為罰款基本上是需要等到職業疾病發生的時候才可以處罰,對不對?而且對於勞工已經產生的傷害有彌補的效果嗎?"},{"start":4237.034,"end":4254.184,"text":"跟委員報告除了說勞檢以外其實在目前的宣導跟輔導面我們也是積極的展開好那部長我要告訴你根據去年有一個消暑商機跟夏天上工的調查指出有93%的勞工贊同政府規劃高溫假的制度"},{"start":4254.904,"end":4280.099,"text":"那資方中也有47%的公司也贊成實施高溫假那此外還有高達96%的戶外工作者支持每月補貼2300塊的這個高溫津貼所以部長其實無論是高溫假或是高溫津貼啦都有這麼高的民意支持我在想勞動部何時可以研議出一個可行的方案可不可以讓本席在一個月或是本院一個月有一個明確的回應"},{"start":4282.019,"end":4302.854,"text":"委員高溫假這個概念因為是針對戶外工作者他也不是針對全面的勞動者所以他可能有他的特定性你容許給我一些時間我們來處理看看我們要來研究看看因為這針對部分的特定的工作者是不是用一個假"},{"start":4304.075,"end":4319.43,"text":"這似乎是值得考慮是,所以我說有沒有可行的方案我想要跟部長說因為你今天還是負責是勞動部不是經濟部和環境部我想現在也不可能說叫你去改變什麼大環境這麼強人所難可是過去其實也曾有這個高溫價的議題勞動部卻是說以再研議的方式帶過"},{"start":4323.354,"end":4344.86,"text":"但我看面對現在極端氣候的來臨今年夏天搞不好會突破40度對於這樣的這樣來講很多勞工都是非常危險最近也看到那個包含去賣家朝聖死了幾千人真的這是非常危險的事情所以要請勞動部長對於勞工能不能多體諒一點對於增加高溫價的可行性或是相關的這個部分可以做出一個"},{"start":4345.98,"end":4367.143,"text":"我想應該是要在職安的相關法規裡面去強化我請職安署來檢討好不好就是要讓僱主能夠意識到這問題的嚴重性我告訴你喔因為我們之前其實也有問過就是之前也有看過勞動部被問過那無外乎你們大概就兩種說法一種就是國際上沒有先例二來就是說美國也沒有高溫價"},{"start":4368.104,"end":4386.205,"text":"可是我要告訴你現在已經不太一樣了因為許多中東國家包含這個伊朗、伊拉克這幾年都有放高溫架的先例那美國呢也發現一個數據就是說這三年來高溫死亡人數是過去15年的三倍而且每年高溫死亡的人數高於什麼颱風、洪水、龍捲風等天災的總和"},{"start":4389.481,"end":4407.134,"text":"以加州為首也開始著手要制定高溫準則跟高溫價的法令制定所以就算美國的情況而言現在他也將勞工的勞動程度分為輕、中、重度三個不同的等級然後做出高溫工作準則根據這個準則"},{"start":4408.815,"end":4426.32,"text":"他們稱中度的工作者體感溫度低於攝氏38度以下環境時,重度的工作者在氣溫攝氏30度左右,每小時工作45分鐘,必須休息15分鐘。而且也不少必須在高溫下戶外工作的企業簽訂合約的時候都附帶高溫的條款。"},{"start":4428.311,"end":4457.912,"text":"所以總結來說他國的經驗其實也都可以借鏡那就算高溫價不能夠一步到位我們也是希望相關的規則是不是有更細緻調整和精進的空間其實以上比較這幾個國內外的高溫價都是希望我們部長可以為我們勞工再多著想一點並且督促僱主能夠共情讓勞工跟僱主之間有個共同的這個溝通的機制跟橋樑這部分是是是我來檢討職安的相關法規好不好"},{"start":4458.012,"end":4486.809,"text":"好那這個稿文架的部分是不是可以給我一個期限大概是什麼樣可以給一個方向我覺得是從職安職業安全衛生職安的職安衛的法規這邊來著手會比較有效啦比較能立竿見影那你如果用架的概念喔所以我剛剛有說勞工也未必同意喔是我剛剛有說我沒有一定限制你要用什麼方式所以你去檢討之後可不可以給本席一個好好我會給您一個報告再一個月左右可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":4487.649,"end":4514.658,"text":"另外回到今天的主題上次的許部長有說就大家媒體問他說有沒有簽這個MOU就他當下說不會簽結果隔天就簽了為何我想許部長當時我想委員這外交工作MOU其實也是外交工作的一部分都有他的不得不的有時候可能善意的隱瞞所以他隱瞞了是不是是善意的隱瞞"},{"start":4515.818,"end":4530.895,"text":"我們外交工作真的蠻困難的所以你說他是善意的隱瞞就對了因為其實他當初是說可能跟外交部溝通上有落差但是我想要說的是請問新任的我們的何部長是不是可以"},{"start":4531.716,"end":4538.639,"text":"委員我從來沒有善意隱瞞你們的事情所以我說可不可以請我們的何部長當然當然我對委員會都是都會盡我所能那上次也有問過就是說你們說網路上有造謠說引進10萬印度移工是假訊息"},{"start":4552.964,"end":4561.798,"text":"那我想要請問一下這次你們預估這樣子簽訂之後我們大概會有多少的印度移工或是你們預估有什麼想法有多少量"},{"start":4562.321,"end":4584.18,"text":"我覺得我們剛開始真的是會非常非常小規模我剛才有講過先從一千人開始先從一千人開始那預估有沒有時程預估說有沒有時程甚至這個都要大概一年一年多以後才看得到了所以一年多以後會先一千人然後預計的可能兩三年之後如果辦的還OK就擴大一萬人兩萬人這樣嗎"},{"start":4585.969,"end":4607.434,"text":"當然要逐步進行啊因為我們過去也有失敗的案例像以前蒙古對我等一下就要跟你提這個就失敗了因為你要牽涉到對方來這邊能不能適應好很好所以回到今天的主題我也想要說無論是這個勞動部補充或是這個移工引進國的多樣化的前提之下我們當然也是算是樂觀其成謝謝"},{"start":4608.254,"end":4622.441,"text":"但是對於印度對於台灣來說我們彼此的文化差異很大那也有很多的適應的空間所以想要請教部長有沒有相關的溝通機制可以讓主顧之間都可以瞭解彼此生活習慣跟文化和宗教的差異"},{"start":4623.888,"end":4642.495,"text":"當然這是很重要的而且事前可能就要先瞭解我們本來就有諮詢會議把僱主團體跟這個移工團體還有包括我們各方的利益代表都找來本席認為這部分是很重要因為僱主方面應該也要多加的宣傳彼此尊重"},{"start":4643.675,"end":4667.833,"text":"因為當初蒙古移工就是來台灣的困境就是包含那個語言困難嘛對台灣的氣候跟飲食適應不良所以導致開放後的第五年就直接歸零喔所以這個部分你要提醒部長和想要問部長就是說我們在外籍移工引進的這些硬體條件其實無論是時程啦開放程度或是薪資上都很難比得過現在的日韓、香港、新加坡"},{"start":4668.499,"end":4683.116,"text":"但大家都說我們臺灣最美的風景是人嘛所以如果我們能夠更多的人文關懷或是開放的形容是不是才更有機會可以長長久久的跟這個反而是我們的優勢啦因為我們臺灣對移工的溫暖對移工的這樣的"},{"start":4686.22,"end":4686.66,"text":"最後一題 馬上"},{"start":4701.107,"end":4718.221,"text":"目前我們勞動部部長還有我們長照的駐司長看護義工的政策有沒有問題日前副司長有說衛福部已經著手規劃要將外籍看護納為長照的照服員請問司長這新制度明年部長或是司長明年"},{"start":4718.982,"end":4741.454,"text":"那是移工團體的訴求那衛福部應該似乎他只是回答中階就是所謂的中階技術人力就是我最就是你知道中階這個東西嗎對中階的中階的技術人力能夠轉造復原可以來研究這個事情所以可以研究你們還沒有決定會不會做對不對沒有沒有我們雙方雙邊都還沒討論了那是移工團體的訴求啦"},{"start":4744.796,"end":4746.016,"text":"謝謝主席有請何部長好請部長"},{"start":4774.105,"end":4798.686,"text":"大家好部長早大家都對於開放印度移工很期待當然也有一些擔心的部分尤其是民眾剛剛很多委員也針對於未來開放印度移工以後碰到一些問題也都分別請教了部長還有署長等等這邊還是希望"},{"start":4800.127,"end":4820.214,"text":"讓民眾的疑問可以有機會讓剛剛署長已經有回答一部分不過部長可不可以再能夠讓我們知道一些民眾疑問的地方這些疑問未來有沒有可能變成一個懶人包什麼時候這個懶人包可以出來來回答這個民眾的疑問那就包括說"},{"start":4822.135,"end":4840.828,"text":"產業的類別會有哪一些?這個時程會是怎麼樣?在MOU裡面也有提到這個職品這是一個雙軌之下的其中一項或者是這是一個主要的原則還有很重要的就是外交部也有現場也有關聯在這一邊我們外國簽證的審核量能"},{"start":4844.651,"end":4844.811,"text":"主席"},{"start":4856.892,"end":4884.07,"text":"要承接這麼大的量在工作上需不需要還有一些人力上的考量還有協助移工適應的準備工作應該要如何準備能夠讓民眾也知道也能夠很放心的當我們這些印度移工進到臺灣以後對於我們需要的一些缺工的部分可以得到改善那這部分各位部長在利用時間跟大家說明一下也讓民眾的疑問可以得到解惑"},{"start":4884.83,"end":4899.482,"text":"是,謝謝委員當然您提到的這些問題都是未來執行上的每一項很重要的細節那我要跟委員報告是現在其實我們在勞發署就已經有這個專區了有一個專區有一個網站上有這個專區跟懶人包那麼當然您問的這些問題當然一個頁別"},{"start":4908.889,"end":4929.742,"text":"我剛剛講過他初期是會自招業為主而且初期是非常小規模的大概一千人左右而已最快也要一年以後你才會看得到這樣子最快喔這是最快的因為雙邊如果工作會議都順利的話那是不是職聘的原則呢我要說這邊的職聘跟我們現在的傳統的職聘是不一樣的所以這是一個新的嘗試我們也還在摸索中"},{"start":4937.807,"end":4952.734,"text":"這個部分我們會雙軌,一定是職聘跟優質仲介雙軌的。然後我們外管簽證什麼能量,我相信初期如果很小規模應該OK的啦,未來也一定是有控制下的量啦。"},{"start":4953.194,"end":4982.51,"text":"未來就算有大量一定也是有控制下的量可是這個前提是台灣都很歡迎印度的移工所以我們只能從小規模的開始試試看而已那萬一如果國人都不接受那也未必能走得下去喔對那還有協助移工適應的準備工作這當然我們責無旁貸現在我們所有的移工來源國我們都有建置這樣的適應的這樣子的機制來給所有的移工來源國也不是只有針對印度"},{"start":4984.531,"end":5004.26,"text":"我相信如果能夠順利把這個部分處理好的話相對對於國人要引進印度移工也好或者是所有移工也好我們都會很放心請他們在台灣協助來讓我們的勞動力可以更增強"},{"start":5005.681,"end":5029.179,"text":"當然他們對進到台灣以後很多的醫療權益還是得要幫助他們當他們有一些困難或者是需要的時候都可以得到好的幫忙那臺大其實他們也有一個新南向的醫療中心不知道這個部長對這方面有沒有一些訊息或瞭解如何能夠透過勞動部跟相關的醫療院所"},{"start":5030.199,"end":5049.433,"text":"對於這些移工的醫療相關的權益讓他們有知道更多的資源在使用上也可以更方便事實上這個不是只有針對移工而已只要在臺灣新南向的這些民眾有需要的時候都可以善用這樣的資源這樣的平台來協助照顧他們的醫療需求"},{"start":5049.913,"end":5072.987,"text":"是謝謝委員其實您真的是提到一個非常重要的問題我們的移工遍佈全國那麼其實全國也許各醫療院所都曾經收容過都曾經收過移工病患對所以其實未來我們跟衛福部也許我們醫療院所這邊我們也應該建置多餘的這個服務這個是有必要去推廣的對是可能不是只有臺大"},{"start":5074.188,"end":5095.365,"text":"應該是所有的醫院可能我們都有需要對謝謝委員提醒這非常好的建議那就麻煩跟這個勞動部跟我們的衛福部中間會有更好的連結尤其是在醫療相關的部分其實之前也有一個問題曾經請教過阿春部長就是我們的黑戶寶寶的部分"},{"start":5097.266,"end":5113.503,"text":"這個部分我們也知道在111年的時候有無一而少無一而少就是黑戶寶寶他們在台灣在安置上面是有一些補償費用也不算少當然也不算多在111年是"},{"start":5114.944,"end":5129.124,"text":"一千一百多萬那去年是八百多萬那這個財源其實還是一個很大的困擾因為這些無餘寶寶他們需要被安置的時候呢事實上是需要費用財源要怎麼來"},{"start":5130.666,"end":5147.144,"text":"之前也有跟阿村部長討論過這些失聯移工就醫的跟育兒的費用有沒有可能在未來不管是在跟中印之間或是其他的移工來源國有沒有辦法去透過外國的仲介"},{"start":5147.705,"end":5147.785,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5165.401,"end":5187.892,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5188.012,"end":5188.032,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":5215.285,"end":5218.347,"text":"接下來我們請邱政軍委員質詢好主席好我們請部長好請何部長"},{"start":5234.128,"end":5234.468,"text":"您是指哪個?"},{"start":5234.468,"end":5235.309,"text":"有分行業嗎?還是整體缺工?沒有沒有,整體整體"},{"start":5266.385,"end":5292.634,"text":"這個整體缺工委員這個因為24萬左右啦如果主計總署的估計是這樣的我們是按主計總署這樣來看我覺得那個數字好像不對啦待會我們回去再查因為我剛剛看到是100多萬應該沒有到這樣缺工人數當中有多少可以用移工聘用的來補的這個部分有多少您說以移工來補嗎"},{"start":5295.014,"end":5315.268,"text":"我們現在移工已經有76萬人那您是指未來在缺工裡面有多少要用移工來補?那當然我們現在是盡量看產業的需求還有包括我們家庭看護這邊的需求盡量來滿足有多少是要用印度移工來補?"},{"start":5316.931,"end":5338.607,"text":"委員其實印度移工還不在我們補足這個所謂缺工的這樣的因為印度移工這個是剛開始而已它只是增加一個來源因為我們現在是這樣就是說我們的這個缺工的問題實在是非常嚴重剛剛我也聽到部長在其他委員諮詢的時候有提到就是說我們第一步是從一千人開始"},{"start":5339.948,"end":5366.806,"text":"我們也希望這個部分能夠盡快來彌補我們國內人工不足的部分我剛剛也聽到部長講了很多的問題也有可能說印度勞工適應的問題等等當然這些都是考慮的因素我們也是要求就是說也希望說我們剛剛也提到我們台灣本地的我們自己台灣的勞工看看有沒有什麼可以轉職來補助這個部分"},{"start":5370.108,"end":5395.642,"text":"當然,我很重要的,上完以後最重要的一個就是推動婦女跟中高齡的就業啦。那麼這個部分我們預估有56萬的勞動力可以開發出來。所以其實如果,我們一定是優先處理這邊的。那麼移工還是一個補充。對,因為我們本,其實我們臺灣的勞工也其實有很多,很多家庭是需要工作讓他們來維持生計的部分。是,是,是。"},{"start":5396.843,"end":5405.885,"text":"我聽到就是說你們當初突襲式的簽約我稱為突襲式那您說是有這個叫善意的謊言"},{"start":5406.775,"end":5435.496,"text":"不是謊言啦不是謊言我要更正喔我不是說謊言那是善意的欺騙善意的隱瞞因為外交工作真的很難許部長當時很辛苦我比較不懂因為這個問題是不在我今天的問題裡面我是剛剛在台下聽到的就是說這個為什麼要有善意的欺騙不要講了善意的隱瞞好了善意的隱瞞好了那為什麼要隱瞞"},{"start":5436.758,"end":5456.909,"text":"我就說因為外交工作真的很辛苦我覺得外交跟移工好像沒有很大的影響會喔會喔委員其實我要跟您報告難道又是共產黨搞的有地緣政治的因素啊他會管到我們移工嗎又是習近平的問題"},{"start":5458.885,"end":5460.666,"text":"主要委員跟您報告主要這都是政府對政府的談判我再請問您就是說"},{"start":5488.126,"end":5507.629,"text":"我們現在就是說我們當時我們有聽你們講說跟社會的對話就是3月1號跟5月2號兩次嘛看起來都是跟我們的協會、工會在討論那我們在諮詢專家意見的時候我們跟社會的溝通是什麼?"},{"start":5509.574,"end":5526.835,"text":"這就是我們跟社會溝通的平台。那麼經過這個溝通其實也很有效的瞭解說社會的需求啦那跟委員報告其實所有的雇主團體或者是工協會或者是產業界各方面他們都認為一定要雙軌啦"},{"start":5529.997,"end":5550.229,"text":"我們現在移工的這個是預計要職聘跟仲介那職聘的部分我看到有很大的問題因為這個申請的流程非常繁瑣我看到我們說要建置職聘印度勞工的資訊的系統那這是要另外開發一個系統還是在原來的職聘系統裡面職聘的網頁裡面"},{"start":5552.253,"end":5573.512,"text":"就跟委員報告 這個所謂我們台藝MOU裡面這一個職聘喔 它是一個新的啦 它是一個新的制度所以說要普遍開發嘛 對不對 對 那是從 那都 這個恐怕都還要再估算 因為也得等這個MOU通過以後我們再來嘗試所以你們現在就是只有想法 目前只是想到這樣還沒有開始要準備實施就對了"},{"start":5575.613,"end":5603.38,"text":"對,因為我們這個必須要往下走的時候跟印度有工作層級會議的時候我們還要考慮印方的配合度印方其實對這個MOU非常的支持而且非常積極我知道你們很積極就是我們看到我現在是擔心執聘的這個流程非常繁瑣沒錯我們也看到您在年底之前要辦三場6月29的高雄7月13的台北7月27的苗栗"},{"start":5603.88,"end":5620.366,"text":"是那我看到你們的網頁點閱次數非常的少到昨天為止到臺北高雄場的是634臺北場的是844那苗栗的比較熱鬧一點因為苗栗1313就是我的意思是說現在委員的選區比較關心這個事情很多人還不曉得那我希望說"},{"start":5625.268,"end":5643.848,"text":"這部分我們部裡面能夠對外再擴大宣傳讓大家能多瞭解一下因為職聘是很好又讓大家不要被仲介都另外的剝削掉了委員我們也會挑選優質的仲介來做評選你的客觀條件是什麼"},{"start":5647.766,"end":5647.786,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":5667.884,"end":5677.387,"text":"好 謝謝邱政軍委員接下來等一下那個黃秀芳委員質詢結束休息5分鐘接下來我們請蘇清泉委員質詢好 謝謝主席這時間沒什麼 講也沒什麼"},{"start":5700.68,"end":5701.361,"text":"政府要引進印度的移工的理由"},{"start":5722.324,"end":5732.805,"text":"是因為他們比較優秀還是我們要做多國的補充人力?這個是什麼原因?我們竊工的漏洞我們竊工現在到底多少人?"},{"start":5734.102,"end":5734.922,"text":"所以近來只要是在職場上"},{"start":5757.688,"end":5758.028,"text":"現在先以製造業為主"},{"start":5777.121,"end":5796.615,"text":"只能先以製造業為主我在中研院有碰過印度的博士後的研究員在中研院我們中研院裡面的研究員還不少喔印度的喔是那薪資也不錯啦我覺得他們也蠻優秀蠻敬業的我的蔣英文講的還不錯"},{"start":5798.877,"end":5806.007,"text":"好,所以主計處的總副總副是欠人,欠二十幾萬人阿市政府可能比這個還要多啦"},{"start":5808.035,"end":5829.5,"text":"我相信委員的瞭解可能還比我 也許比我更深刻的待遇好 這個第一個問題 那第二個問題外媒報導印度 那麼大喔377萬平方公里的印度的面積 裡面有住了15億人口那外媒報導就是印度每15分鐘就有一個性侵"},{"start":5831.269,"end":5854.046,"text":"這個是很可怕的全世界對印度的觀念跟印象就是這樣而且他們是這個是蠻嚴重那你有沒有擔心他們進來如果人數多會不會造成台灣的治安會變差那你如何因應外界的質疑那有沒有辦法解決嗎"},{"start":5855.433,"end":5871.929,"text":"委員第一個印度他們當然本土的治安率也許有他們的狀況這我們就是客觀尊重對方這是他們對方的問題那可是當然來到我們這裡我們第一個一定確保我們"},{"start":5873.15,"end":5892.675,"text":"會以這個先跟我們國情接近的人為移工為主啦比如說他有英語能力好別他一定程度的技術能力等等的那麼這個其實還有包括他有良民證好等等這方面的檢查一定都必備的然後呢進來之後還會有一定程度的規範跟講習"},{"start":5894.235,"end":5914.974,"text":"然後必須要讓他瞭解台灣的法制是什麼樣子然後我們跟移民署之間其實也已經開始展開關於引進印度移工的一些所以會挑比較文明的幾個省他們有省,他們也是算省還是邦你們要派人過去看看"},{"start":5916.295,"end":5929.049,"text":"他們在上課的時候也要甚至不排除我們的人過去跟他們上個課,台灣的治安啊台灣的那個,因為只要印度人在那裡說,他們也不在那裡說什麼。是,對,一定要先這樣。因為這個MOU簽了"},{"start":5933.274,"end":5956.325,"text":"我們黨團這邊有互待修正是互待協議要嘛就是退回要嘛就是修正要嘛就是互待協議可是委員我跟您報告那個一條一地解法第十條如果被修正了我只能被退回耶這個要拜託拜託委員能夠支持我把我們黨團的那個念給你聽"},{"start":5960.487,"end":5969.289,"text":"要求勞動部指定或設立專責機構推動政府與政府直接聘僱並擬定績效指標保障移工勞動條件推動移工直接聘任之成效"},{"start":5986.963,"end":6010.209,"text":"你是指附帶決議嗎?附帶決議這是OK的,謝謝第三個問題缺工是台灣最大的問題少子化是一個原因但是台灣本地勞工的薪資是偏低的所以你要一直往上加你不要讓人家覺得一直引進外國的移工然後我們這邊"},{"start":6011.869,"end":6029.719,"text":"我們的勞工的薪資有沒有明顯的提升這樣百姓跟我們鄉親父老是不會支持的那你對本國勞工的今年度的基本薪資的又要開始打架了"},{"start":6030.919,"end":6051.588,"text":"謝謝委員 下午我才要開第一次諮詢會 我跟委員報告喔 那個諮詢會就是當年您通過的這個最低工資法裡面的一個機制啦 啊它就是以前的工作小組 其實那只是一個溝通會議 它不會去決定條幅 也不會去決定任何事情 所以只是我跟委員的見面會而已 而且我也是新的"},{"start":6052.388,"end":6055.151,"text":"這一次的印度要進來他們的匯款回去我們看一下地下匯兌"},{"start":6070.304,"end":6098.315,"text":"銀行匯兌金額最高7萬塊手續費500塊時間要二到三天地下匯兌沒有上限手續費相對便宜時間不用一天效率好但是非法風險高我看我們屏東那邊很多漁工他們要在上班時間去銀行匯兌有他的困難我們的銀行三天半就結束了"},{"start":6099.281,"end":6120.163,"text":"他們還在上班。每星期我們的銀行都休息。所以他們很多人都用地下揮隊。那地下揮隊的危險性是很高。曾經有越南的漁工被騙了60萬。所以,你們這心心口口的錢,印度來的你們要用什麼系統?你有沒有跟金管會要有什麼想法?"},{"start":6121.488,"end":6150.478,"text":"是各位報告儘管會其實在2021年就有外籍移工小額會對辦法啦阿儘管會現在有許可4家做小額會對啦不過當然這個可能不曉得能不能完全滿足移工是一個問題我們也會再來檢視然後進一步擴大合法推動這種有利方便移工會對的這樣子的機制你去人群辦時間沒辦法迎合對可是現在有手機4家用APP"},{"start":6151.398,"end":6178.334,"text":"對,他用APP就可以轉耶對,那4家都是APP的他算是應該是新創吧?Fintech的新創的沙盒實驗的那種業者有4家只是說可能也許推廣率是不是不夠?你再去了解一下好不好?實際的情況他跟金管會好好的討論討論因為現在碰到的就是這樣然後他們都用地下會隊"},{"start":6179.415,"end":6179.595,"text":"建檢會用誰負擔?"},{"start":6196.299,"end":6220.488,"text":"他們進來的健檢然後印度人他們有沒有受出的疾病我是一個臨床醫師像現在東南亞進來的寄生蟲什麼什麼怕肺炎肺炎還蠻常碰到的那印度這邊有沒有什麼特殊的那他的費用是誰出因為如果是政府跟政府直接評估的話誰要付錢健檢費嗎健檢費是雙方合意也是要雙方談"},{"start":6224.93,"end":6239.136,"text":"你現在是政府要自己搞,怎麼會跟雙方合議?是已經有僱主了,所以僱主這邊的,僱主來付還是你們編預算?沒有,就是要看僱主,如果願意付當然僱主來付吧,最好吧。"},{"start":6240.766,"end":6262.623,"text":"對,不過這個東西就是要經過工作層級會議我覺得啦,藉著這一次跟印度的MOU非常的盛壯也把以前我們跟東南亞、印尼這些國家的那個業績好好地檢視一次好好地檢視一下,因為這樣的話不要太大的差別而且有一些以前的缺失"},{"start":6263.944,"end":6265.845,"text":"謝謝主席有請何部長請何部長"},{"start":6294.308,"end":6321.806,"text":"部長好部長台灣在1992年修法通過救福法然後我們開放外籍勞工之後呢到目前為止我們只有4個移工的這個來源國如果比較起這個像新加坡日本韓國我們真的是少了很多像新加坡的話他有11國日本有15國韓國他有17國所以呢如果說我們碰到某一個這個國家他減少這個原額或者是說停止移工來"},{"start":6323.848,"end":6338.224,"text":"來臺的話對臺灣的產業是造成很大的一個衝擊所以要增加來源國的這數量我在想這是一個勢在必行那再來也要補足現在目前勞動力的這個缺口也可以減少來源國不足的這個問題"},{"start":6339.525,"end":6354.556,"text":"那剛剛我有聽了很多這個委員提了很多問題其實都是大家共同關心的這個議題那比如說提到文化衝突治安跟女性的權益還有臺灣勞工的權益等等那這些都是我們要特別去注意的那"},{"start":6355.296,"end":6384.375,"text":"印度是一個多種族、多宗教、多語言的一個國家那過去我在馬來西亞出生長大馬來西亞有三大族群其中一個呢就是印度我們的印度同胞那我從小也曾經跟他們一起長大所以他們其實在我的印象當中是一個非常聰明然後又友善的一個民族所以如果說一提到印度族群就你要提到治安跟女性權益什麼什麼之類的"},{"start":6385.496,"end":6412.934,"text":"我是覺得說這可能對他們全體來講是不公平我在想我們的行政單位這部分可能要去適宜因為畢竟台灣對印度族群是非常非常的陌生那再來還有一點就是我們真的要對這個族群有更多的瞭解他不是單純就只有回教或是佛教之類的他們的宗教真的真的非常的複雜所以他們進來之後我們真的要做到"},{"start":6413.794,"end":6432.821,"text":"對這個多元族群跟文化的這個尊重我想這個行政單位真是要做一點功課下一點功夫免得大家進來之後呢因為產生一些誤解而產生一些社會的衝突我想這個部分是我們要來做避免的OK那再來還有一點剛剛很多委員都提到同樣的這個問題比如說"},{"start":6435.602,"end":6452.209,"text":"我們有提到說什麼時候要試辦我們要開放哪些這個產業那還有直接聘僱計畫等等我在想剛剛部長都已經有說了一些說明可是我在想好像有些部分真的還沒有準備好我的感覺部長您剛剛的這說法我是覺得說有些東西我們說我們簽的MOU可是很多細節到目前為止我的感覺都還沒有一個雛形出來"},{"start":6462.053,"end":6467.937,"text":"那當然所有委員的這個問題其實也希望說既然我們已經簽了MOU我們已經要讓這些印度移工要進來了我們應該要做更多更多的這個準備我想這是一定要的那當然我本來也準備了相同的這個問題我想因為剛剛很多委員都已經有提問了所以我就把這個問題稍微做一些省略"},{"start":6491.698,"end":6501.853,"text":"昨天我們勞動署有發了一個新聞就是說留住僑外生的人力所以我們要開放從事"},{"start":6503.335,"end":6506.018,"text":"李素燁、鍾潔技術的工作。"},{"start":6517.87,"end":6539.442,"text":"好,那這幾個月其實我一直都有跟喬萬生在做一些對話那當然我們有歸類出了幾大項可能需要我們勞動部跟相關的單位像國防會也好、全國會也好、經濟部也好我們可能要一起來做很像的一些溝通我們居然要把人給留住不是只是口號"},{"start":6540.242,"end":6566.208,"text":"我們要怎麼做?這些問題要怎麼解決?喬惠森的訴求我們要怎麼樣來做回應?那我們大概是歸類為四大類喬惠森他的訴求我們說夠病啦那我們既然想把人留住你就勢必要在制度上面要做一些開放比如說我們現在目前限制從事15類專門技術性的工作喬惠森只能做這15類那目前我們看到的就是昨天昨天我們勞發署說"},{"start":6568.649,"end":6569.55,"text":"其實其他部會也有提出要求"},{"start":6596.184,"end":6598.528,"text":"例如呢?對,比如說有沒有其他的想法?"},{"start":6599.602,"end":6600.082,"text":"國發同意,我們就來配合。其實"},{"start":6629.852,"end":6649.324,"text":"這並不是就是說像喬惠生願不願意從事旅輸業這也要尊重他們那只是提供一個機會多一個機會而已對然後呢這個喬惠生他的薪水一定他有一定薪資程度以上啦所以這也不可能說去拉低國人的薪資這樣子他不是移工啦"},{"start":6650.024,"end":6659.326,"text":"他不是我們那種低層次的移工嘛所以他是人才我們想辦法要把他留下來那到底我們評點是會不會整個被取消?會嗎?我們會拿掉這個評點是嗎?不是取消而是把他的門檻打開民額沒有限制了現在是不是?我們也是還沒開放嗎?還沒還沒這個要再修法你們的時程呢?時程民額打開8月底前修辦法"},{"start":6675.129,"end":6678.492,"text":"然後呢,年底前,對,營業額這個限制我們也會檢討取消嗎?我們也會檢討取消。對,對,這會要推動修法。"},{"start":6696.693,"end":6705.855,"text":"對,因為這才是一個長久的把喬外森這個人才留下來的工作許可的方式工作許可他們在申請的時候有些企業界的老闆他會覺得流程非常的複雜就覺得這麼複雜我就不要用喬外森這個部分呢"},{"start":6724.139,"end":6728.505,"text":"那個我們就是來檢討我們一定來檢討這個是這個問題如果要修法的話就要來檢討這個制度因為時間的關係像第4點求學期間打工受限畢業求職期間沒有辦法打工這個是一直很大的一個訴求所以這部分的話我在想第4點"},{"start":6741.201,"end":6768.938,"text":"第4點是不是我們要來演繹一下就是說他們畢業之後有兩年的秘職時間我們是不是也可以讓他有所謂的打工我想這部分你還蠻重要我們在香港很多國家其實都會這樣比如說講留住人才可是在還沒有找到正職以前我們是不是要來協助他們讓他們可以適度的打工這部分會不開放嗎我來跟國發來商量研究看看因為這部分我知道在這裡是個很大的事情其實這是個跨部會平台要討論的事情OK好以上謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6770.438,"end":6775.323,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請洪森翰委員支持請何部長請部長委員好"},{"start":6796.145,"end":6816.919,"text":"我們今天在討論台灣跟印度簽的這個關於勞務移工的MOU那當然應該是基於其實台灣跟印度我們兩國其實這幾年越來越我想包括互相對待的友善跟信任的增加所簽署的"},{"start":6818.138,"end":6837.312,"text":"但確實這段時間關於這個MOU引起的社會很多的討論我認為其中一個很大的原因是因為雖然我們兩國的政府有平凡的互動但台灣社會整體來說其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會"},{"start":6839.093,"end":6857.405,"text":"但這次引進印度各界的聲音其實我想確實非常多那但我自己認為這其實恐怕這確實已經不是只是印度移工的問題而是我們其實臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了我認為已經到"},{"start":6858.866,"end":6871.813,"text":"另一個階段也就是說社會各界其實都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立也包括承擔起更多的責任"},{"start":6874.598,"end":6897.834,"text":"這次引發這麼多討論有一個很根本的原因我認為其實就是過去的政府對於移工引進的這個責任的承擔真的太少了所以大部分的壓力都落在僱主身上那僱主尤其是弱勢的僱主如果沒有辦法承擔的話那他就把這個承擔的責任就希望轉移到仲介身上尤其是管理的人到仲介身上"},{"start":6898.795,"end":6906.692,"text":"那如果仲介沒有處理好或者是想要壓低成本各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象"},{"start":6909.062,"end":6933.653,"text":"那這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感會有一些包括出現的一些歧視或者是一些這樣既定觀感的我覺得一個原因在這個地方所以它某個部分它在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構但源頭我不知道部長同不同意確實是我們在拼顧移工過程尤其引進移工過程裡面政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的過去"},{"start":6936.033,"end":6940.713,"text":"有監討的空間啦好,不然我其實知道這一次"},{"start":6942.529,"end":6971.488,"text":"在我們簽訂的MOU的第8條裡面是直接關於這個直接聘僱的部分那條文的內容當然包括說現有招募制度雙方同意推動直接聘僱計劃等等等這是當然第一次把這個職聘的部分寫進這個條文裡但就我所知過去其實臺灣的尤其是老發署曾經也推動過相關的一些職聘的計劃那我想問這一次印度移工的職聘跟過去的職聘不一樣地方在哪裡"},{"start":6972.441,"end":7002.118,"text":"就是委員您也知道現在我們的職聘其實效能並不是很好啦國內目前對但也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛那麼在國內的職聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前就是說這次台印的MOU裡面這個職聘它是一個必須是一個全新的嘗試啦它的職聘不是我們現在傳統我們看到的國內的這種職聘方式它要有創新的做法"},{"start":7002.438,"end":7008.171,"text":"我會覺得國內現在的職聘不太像真的是一個功能完整的職聘是啊對那我說不同在哪裡"},{"start":7009.434,"end":7036.841,"text":"那個不同在於說我們有沒有能力未來這個要評估的就是比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣到對方來源國去設點直接去選工然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業跟政府大家密切合作然後也一起來進行這樣子這是要評估的其實每一個國家之間可能都有情境上的不同"},{"start":7038.001,"end":7058.086,"text":"所以你很難完全把另外一個國家今天完全抄襲可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的比方說如果就像部長剛才講到的韓國其實我們大概如果對韓國的職聘進入一些分析把他在這個他韓國職聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候我們大概發現幾件事情"},{"start":7058.826,"end":7083.047,"text":"其實台灣跟目前韓國政府目前在規劃上面的我們大概少了兩件事情第一個事情就是我這個表格裡面提到的他有一個所謂的僱用許可之專用資訊系統一般來說叫做SPAS那下面一個就是透過SPAS去選工這其實反而是現在韓國的執聘系統跟台灣過去的規劃裡面比較大差別的地方"},{"start":7083.991,"end":7103.147,"text":"那這當然我們現在先做這樣子的分析可是我們現在看到我們看到勞發署有提到在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到這個直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統我想先請問這是不是就是韓國他們韓國政府他的這個SPS我想先問這件事情"},{"start":7103.749,"end":7104.289,"text":"我之前也有跟蔡組長討論過這個事情"},{"start":7124.185,"end":7140.923,"text":"在引進泰國移工的時候我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS但當時其實並沒有成功當時沒有成功當然原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好所以我們有很多政府的基本的服務沒有提供所以最後變成"},{"start":7142.128,"end":7143.388,"text":"委員 現在包括臺非或是印尼"},{"start":7165.534,"end":7185.729,"text":"這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子不然你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範"},{"start":7186.67,"end":7207.538,"text":"所以在這個小規模示範裡面我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試所以我剛剛說我們其實過去也有嘗試過執聘可是就像它的功能不彰我們也有嘗試過這個SPS的系統可是因為配套不足我認為如果這一次我們包括勞動部的報告裡面MOU第8條裡面就寫說我們要把執聘給做好"},{"start":7208.078,"end":7209.06,"text":"我自己是希望可不可以在"},{"start":7221.338,"end":7240.832,"text":"兩個月內可以把你們接下來如何能夠再汲取過去執聘不太成功的經驗下的改變的做法哪些最重要的改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們我覺得這件事情是這個我覺得不應該閉門造局我覺得這件事情是可以來跟社會各界"},{"start":7241.372,"end":7259.519,"text":"包括移工團體包括雇主團體或者是怎樣怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的職聘來增加政府在聘雇移工過程裡面能夠承擔的責任或者一般人家講居土局我覺得參考其他國家經驗這是一定必要的但重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來"},{"start":7261.099,"end":7271.356,"text":"而不要再重到過去的副社部長這沒有問題吧當然那兩個月內可以嗎可以可以可以好部長我最後我想要提一個事情喔我其實之前在對許部長的質詢裡面我有提到"},{"start":7272.901,"end":7290.37,"text":"不過我們其實遇到一個陳情有一個家庭的僱主他說他家庭的看護工中風了所以這個僱主他一面要照顧他的爸爸又要照顧這位中國的看護工所以他就尋求仲介結果那個仲介就跟他說那你就趕快把這仲介移工送回國就沒你的事了"},{"start":7291.511,"end":7318.378,"text":"但這個僱主他不願意昧著良心這樣做所以他打1995去找勞發署或地方的勞動局但都沒有人能夠協助他最後他跑來這是他的陳情信跑來找我們才在各種的媒介之下來去處理這些事情那這個案例我當時就跟許部長說了這凸顯一件事情是其實我們在台灣的移工並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援的網絡可以去協助他們做出各種其實他可能必要的後勤的支援"},{"start":7318.778,"end":7341.691,"text":"所以這些事情就變成又要落入到僱主的身上當僱主沒能力承擔的時候就會遇到這種大家不樂見的狀況會發生當時許部長有跟我說那時候我們在3月的時候提說兩個月的時間會把這個資源移工的資源中心跟資源的網絡做相關的規劃可是兩個月到了我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃部長"},{"start":7344.7,"end":7371.106,"text":"這個當時蔡署長也是也在場齁那這部分部長覺得需要多久的時間我現在正在要求勞法署進行一個勞政友善計畫這個全面檢討所有的這一個相關的服務是那麼這個建制移工就業指南系統是我們現在正在進行的一個更綜合性的資源計畫是終於支援網絡的中心齁那大概多久時間可以給我們相關的規劃稍微"},{"start":7373.786,"end":7374.066,"text":"黃秀芳委員質詢"},{"start":7402.393,"end":7404.562,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請何部長好 請何部長"},{"start":7408.867,"end":7435.339,"text":"委員好部長好部長針對今天我們來看這個台印MOU那我們在3、4月的時候也有在委員會也有特別討論過那我今天想要請教因為我當時在委員會的時候也有請教我們這個許部長就是說未來如果我們朝向就是這個執聘的話那勢必會增加我們所有這個"},{"start":7436.759,"end":7436.779,"text":"我請問"},{"start":7457.583,"end":7481.656,"text":"是,就是委員我剛剛有講到未來這個產業MOU裡面這個紙片它必須是一個新的做法那我們也在嘗試是不是未來有辦法去承擔公部門去承擔這樣的業務量或是掌握跟產業之間的彼此的合作能夠取代仲介事實上我說真的這個必須有待檢視啦對,這您提的問題也確實是問題所以"},{"start":7486.092,"end":7486.712,"text":"我相信部長你應該也知道齁?"},{"start":7504.477,"end":7532.852,"text":"如果是這樣的話因為我們現在很多公部門的業務其實都是委外委外去經營委外去承辦喔像我們勞動部也有很多的這個業務也是委外啊對不對就有一些行政工作也是委外啊那如果是這樣子的話你未來這個職聘的工作是你們自己內部會自己去做還是會委外那如果是委外的話其實就跟現在的這個仲介在經營"},{"start":7533.852,"end":7558.002,"text":"我覺得是會一樣啊你可不可以具體再講一下是當然就是說因為這個職聘的模式我還是要強調我們今天推動台印的MOU是為了解決國內的勞動力不足跟缺工的問題倒不是為了推動職聘而去做台印的MOU啦我要坦白講所以我一直強調是雙軌"},{"start":7560.907,"end":7582.769,"text":"對,事實上你要就印方那邊的現實的情況來看印度它沒有職聘啦我這邊要做職聘的話我這邊事實上我的職聘能力也有也經驗說真的也有限然後我現在必須全新的嘗試所以那也只是小規模的試辦而已啦那你小規模是多小的規模你可不可以"},{"start":7583.49,"end":7598.32,"text":"可以以你們現在的想法,小規模是怎樣的小規模?我想也許你比如說我們剛開始1000人好了,裡面可能百分之幾是用這樣子的那個職聘試試看嘛。"},{"start":7604.183,"end":7620.275,"text":"因為你還要對方配合啊 事實上在這個MOU當時談判的時候 印方是反對放這個條文的 我要坦白講 是我方一直堅持 所以他們才 因為他們也很感謝 就是為了在那個MOU可以推動 他們也願意接受這樣子"},{"start":7622.757,"end":7641.823,"text":"可是我們真的要尊重對方,如果我們要引進對方的移工的話,我還是必須看對方的狀況這樣子。那最快就是說印度移工最快是什麼時候?剛剛部長有特別提到就是說小規模試辦,那最快是什麼時候會試辦?"},{"start":7643.804,"end":7655.271,"text":"您是指這個印度移工的進來嗎?那最快也是一年以後的事情了。一年以後。對。對,其實還蠻長的。好,那在這一年當中,應該你們要把該,如果說未來有職聘的話,可能這一個"},{"start":7661.014,"end":7689.013,"text":"整個程序或者是人力怎麼配置我覺得應該在這一年內你們應該要好好的去規劃是對如果這樣MOU今天如果可以經大院通過那麼我們就趕快來嘗試這個新的做法可以怎麼做然後我們可以跟委員報告對是那另外就是說如果是未來執聘的話我上次在質詢的時候我有特別提到就是說整個程序可能是要更簡便"},{"start":7690.654,"end":7715.364,"text":"應該是要更方便民眾直接在網路上面申請那整個表格可能要更簡便然後更方便所以我也希望說你們這方面可能也要去思考一下要不然其實政府很多的這個要申請書啊什麼可能就是真的很繁瑣很繁雜然後那個程序一關一關我覺得如果是這樣的話如果"},{"start":7717.144,"end":7742.719,"text":"一般的僱主他可能也會覺得說職聘太麻煩可能又會委託別人來辦理那如果是這樣的話我覺得如果說要朝向職聘或者是有仲介這樣雙軌的話我覺得你職聘應該要更方便讓一般的這個僱主來申請這個整個程序要更簡便委員就是說我現在率先著重於改善我們自己國內的職聘的問題"},{"start":7744.04,"end":7758.054,"text":"我現在對推動一個勞政友善化的計畫我要求這邊必須檢討我們整個所有這個移工申請的流程裡面到底有哪些繁瑣的地方能夠盡量能夠讓人民覺得說開始方便起來"},{"start":7758.695,"end":7782.961,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7783.061,"end":7796.747,"text":"所以我希望就是說因為我最近就聽到很多這個我們現在有那個農業就是已經農業移工嘛有很多農場或者是這個養豬場我最近是碰到這個養豬場"},{"start":7798.328,"end":7822.438,"text":"那他們是說他們自己小小的一個養豬場可是他們就有聘一兩個這個外籍移工那他們覺得說這個確實是幫助他們非常的大因為這個缺工的問題造成很多這個3K的這個工作沒人做那如果說有這樣子的移工進來的話確實可以解決一些這個"},{"start":7823.558,"end":7845.896,"text":"議員﹚"},{"start":7845.996,"end":7868.045,"text":"如果說非常的繁瑣他還是會請別人來代辦就像我們現在有很多事情覺得說很麻煩他可能就請一個代書幫他辦那如果說這個我們太繁瑣的話要聘請移工太繁瑣的話他還是會回到仲介那邊所以我在這邊要特地"},{"start":7868.565,"end":7869.987,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢,我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":8275.933,"end":8300.963,"text":"好我們繼續開會請大家就座接下來我們請林楚英委員資訊謝謝主席主席我們有請外交部現在是副司長的對許副司長對許副司長來請"},{"start":8306.636,"end":8327.014,"text":"副市長好,我想其實台印之間的關係升溫在最近的一些大事件當中都已經可以看得出來那麼其實我們從2000年2008年到2016再到現在2024一直以來我們跟印度之間的這個交流可以說是越來越緊密包括連莫迪總理都特別發魂來恭賀我們的賴清德總統那麼台印之間的關係隨著這個MOU的簽訂我想會更加的緊密那麼"},{"start":8334.5,"end":8355.907,"text":"日本席主要還是在國防外交委員會那今天這個只是一個備查的MOU要來做實質的瞭解的時候我覺得也不是壞事因為可以讓國人注意到台印之間那麼本來本席是要問一下藍司長的不過我想許副司長也可以帶我回應就是台印之間現在除了這個有關於移工的問題之外和交流之外"},{"start":8356.627,"end":8370.502,"text":"包括未來可預見的還有哪一些台印之間我們其實看這個問題恐怕不是只是看人力國內的需求我相信還有更多台印的外交之間可以有一些進展的部分可不可以聊一下"},{"start":8374.623,"end":8395.423,"text":"謝謝委員。我想台印度的關係,今年日前升溫。印度末底在2014年提出的東京政策,事實上跟我國的新南向外交政策是不謀而合。所以我想是雙方面具有戰略的互補性。站在我們提倡價值外交的立場,"},{"start":8396.184,"end":8423.634,"text":"那我想我們外交部當然一定會全力來推動加強這個雙邊我們跟台我們跟印度之間的一個雙邊合作關係特別是推動這個兩國雙方這個經貿跟人員的交流特別特別是這幾年我們跟印度也在這個經貿經貿投資半導體傳統醫藥自動訊教育文化等領域這個關係各個領域的關係事實上日益密切所以未來"},{"start":8424.474,"end":8441.205,"text":"當然我們外交部也會持續在這幾個領域再持續加強推動那今天我們討論這個勞務合作案當然這個是對於雙方人員交流也是非常有助益所以我們也會配合這個主政單位勞動部他們的專業規劃"},{"start":8442.706,"end":8442.746,"text":"是,沒錯"},{"start":8465.466,"end":8483.779,"text":"其實我覺得我們也有義務在委員會當中讓大家知道這不只是我們國內生產力人力部分補足的問題其實在外交上面也有它外交必須所展現出來的一些成果或者是面向讓國人知道好謝謝副市長請回我現在有請我們的這個勞動部請何部長何部長"},{"start":8492.149,"end":8511.124,"text":"部長好,我想其實這個人力的短缺的問題,不只是在場大家都知道,全台灣都知道。如果我們從現在人力缺口來看,根據現在勞動部的113年的第二次人力需求調查會發現,我們的人力需求一直都是呈現不夠的狀態。"},{"start":8512.185,"end":8538.635,"text":"那麼也不是說我們現在有人想找工作找不到工作或者是說其實想要找工作的人他其實的需求不太一樣包括我們今年可以看到的是我們的這個所謂失業率的部分也是24年來新低也言下之意這樣的人力的缺口在台灣內部他會出現的是也許台灣民眾講白了他就是不選擇這樣的類別所以我們必須靠移工來補足"},{"start":8541.516,"end":8542.957,"text":"部長,其實你們面對的應該是整個產業面的人力需求,對不對?"},{"start":8559.449,"end":8584.89,"text":"好所以今天我們在這裡討論這樣的一個人力需求的時候他是業界需要的嗎?從印度簽訂這個MOU是業界需要的嗎?我想這個是最重要的那如果是業界產業需要而整個我們的人力上面又出現這樣的一個缺口因為包括今天蠻巧的經濟委員會你可能不知道他所命的題目叫做面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為"},{"start":8588.573,"end":8611.035,"text":"所以你就會發現說全台灣在各個產業都需要人力的補充跟補足那麼在這個部分我們針對去簽訂了這個印度的MOU部長怎麼來看這樣的人力的部分可以有效的補上然後讓這個每年至少4萬的人數的缺工對產業鏈上面可以給予哪些幫助"},{"start":8613.197,"end":8630.232,"text":"我們在諮詢會議裡面就是發現業界其實表示了高度的興趣啦尤其是製造業甚至營造業這樣子的產業啦那事實上印度移工他們在這方面他們也是向全球輸出的現在他們的全球移工輸出高達1800萬人"},{"start":8631.813,"end":8648.189,"text":"所以他們是非常具有國際經驗的移工輸出經驗那在這個我們國內的產業的這樣的互補性上所以我們初期一定是以製造業先為主我們希望能夠很快的媒合然後能夠在這方面能夠讓產業補足人力的缺口"},{"start":8650.751,"end":8670.723,"text":"當然除了第一部會是以製造業為主而且在製造業的話可能在僱主這邊包括剛剛前面的委員都有聊到談到關心到的職聘的這樣一個問題但是接下來當然在國內有關於照顧類的家庭照顧類的這樣的家庭看護的移工其實大家也都在要求"},{"start":8671.764,"end":8688.896,"text":"以這樣子來講的話因為在這一次的MOU簽訂當中的第二條就說了職類跟名額由我方來決定我相信回歸到一般民眾他們比較關心的會是家庭的看護移工的增加跟步驟那麼今天被查"},{"start":8689.756,"end":8713.291,"text":"完備之後我們經過委員會的討論之後我想民眾更關心的恐怕是外國移工尤其是我想在野黨的委員他們也自己提了好幾個版本啦都希望年滿80歲以上然後免醫療機構來做這個評估我想民眾都會把那個期待值往這裡去加過去包括說有沒有可能這個部分可以把這樣的人力補充進來那麼部長怎麼來看"},{"start":8715.732,"end":8722.517,"text":"委員這個部分剛才在委員會裡面討論非常多可是我要再次強調如果這個提案通過的話會產生馬上產生53萬的移工缺口這是一個蠻龐大的數字那所以很多團體也擔心會排起重症失能者的照顧因為現在全球都在搶工不是只有我們在搶移工是全球包括我們的鄰近的日韓他們也都在搶"},{"start":8745.732,"end":8764.199,"text":"所以這個是一個要正式的嚴峻的問題那真的也拜託委員能夠三思啦在這個提案上面能夠做一點比較審酌的考量這樣子好本席把這個提出來就是我們一方面我們在審查然後外界甚至於有一些詆毀的聲音在講說從這個印度來的這個移工怎麼樣怎麼樣這些沒有經過查證的相關的這種質疑"},{"start":8770.802,"end":8771.363,"text":"接下來我們請王定宇委員質詢"},{"start":8801.295,"end":8822.455,"text":"請勞動部長部長第一次在這邊看到你有些問題要請教你我也代表國人要提出一些關心我們希望提供正確的訊息不便回答的或者資訊不完整的我們都可以讓你盡量補充你知道現在全世界都在搶人力資源"},{"start":8823.536,"end":8846.224,"text":"人力資源我們細分其實可以分成白領的勞工技術工藍領的技術工還有一般的我們講過去講3K啦就是這個移工類的等等那這一次我們勞動部去跟印度簽這個MOU的原因是什麼是你們自己想到的還是台灣有產業界在遊說這個事情還是有什麼樣的需求"},{"start":8847.956,"end":8856.714,"text":"這個因為當然就是要增加來源國的考量啦過去我們就是一直依賴那四國那個印度那個印尼的律兵那四國你覺得不能再依賴"},{"start":8857.776,"end":8883.583,"text":"因為他們也在全球也在搶他們也有很多我們看到的是越南本身也有慢慢有缺工的情形泰國也有類似的情形所以原來那四國的經濟有起來有的是他們的移工去海外學的技術掌握了通路回去自己開公司像我們南部在做那個皮球的做那個足球的公司幾乎都被越南的取代掉了原因在這裡"},{"start":8884.343,"end":8905.35,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":8905.53,"end":8928.201,"text":"感謝每一位移工為台灣的付出不管他在家裡照顧長輩或者在烈日下做營建工程其實他們都在這片土地上付出心力不能去歧視他但是我們還是要提醒勞動部引進移工通常會面對第一個問題是會不會影響到台灣本土的勞工我們自己的勞工會不會因為印度的MOU受到影響你們有沒有什麼預防的設計"},{"start":8929.795,"end":8950.705,"text":"委員其實台印的這個以移工引進他絕對是不會去影響到國內的就業機會因為其實這都是是國內的產業不足的部分才去補充的我們一定是優先以國內我們以往是說國內的企業徵財徵財徵財三次徵不到財他才能開缺所以方法是跟過去的移工方式一樣"},{"start":8951.727,"end":8953.669,"text":"那現在跟印度簽的MOU是除了經過仲介以外"},{"start":8981.25,"end":9007.644,"text":"對,再增加一個職聘的管道。對。那這個好處在哪裡?這個好處當然就是減少仲介中間的操縱。對,是是。可是這個要討慮對方的問題。因為印度本身沒有什麼職聘的制度。那他也是透過仲介的。所以當我方這邊要用職聘的時候,可能我這邊成本會比較高。對,我要到對方去設點。"},{"start":9012.607,"end":9035.338,"text":"我們要嘗試把它...因為印度社會的文化結構跟我們不太一樣那他們那邊如果都是仲介公司那台灣某個企業他要職聘通常會職聘的人是因為他在印度有分公司他在印度有設企業點他要把那邊的人直接聘過來台灣他用職聘的他就知道要聘誰這種會用到啦"},{"start":9037.719,"end":9053.921,"text":"那這樣子的情形下還是我要提醒勞動部還是要避免去排擠到臺灣本身的需求你懂意思嗎當然因為他在那邊因為在南印度的幾個省還有東印度其實臺灣有很多公司在那邊設廠"},{"start":9055.183,"end":9071.154,"text":"所以執聘這一類是避免剝削所以印度移工他省得被人家剝好幾層皮對台灣的雇主我可以找到我想要的而不是來用美化我又換嘛那最常發現就是因為印度本身沒有什麼中介沒有什麼執聘制度"},{"start":9071.934,"end":9093.23,"text":"所以常會發現是比如說台灣富士康在那邊有設一個工業區他就把那邊的想要聘過來他可以用職聘的或者某某企業在印度有設廠區他要把那邊的好的技術工引進來台灣可能會發生在這裡所以我這邊本期要提醒勞動部就這個樣態一定要避免國內的職缺"},{"start":9095.211,"end":9115.324,"text":"因為這個樣態被排擠。這個有做提醒。對,這也是要小心的。因為他這個職聘是企業內職聘。是,沒錯。他是跨國企業的企業內職聘。而跨國企業內的職聘就很有可能那個職缺的控管會有一些沒槓。當然。勞動部這個要注意。當然。所以委員我要再次跟你強調我們是雙軌。"},{"start":9116.826,"end":9136.944,"text":"就是仲介跟職聘雙軌對啊但是我如果是一個跨國企業我企業內體系我跨國都有點的時候我當然選擇職聘啊因為我當地公司可以recruitrecruit了之後再把它transfer到台灣這就職聘了但我不排斥這個方法因為這個企業可以用到合用的"},{"start":9137.901,"end":9140.322,"text":"我看一下這一次其實這個MOU很多的決定事項是台灣提出決定事項"},{"start":9159.272,"end":9175.132,"text":"那印度方是願意?是這個比較罕見的這個就是非常罕見的而且我們非常感謝印方的積極跟對我們的友好因為印度坦白講以往印度大概是在中印邊界開始丟石頭以後開始丟石頭丟石頭然後丟完石頭呢他們的國安部門"},{"start":9176.013,"end":9201.965,"text":"我們駐印的使館也瞭解說他們的國安部門對於中國那邊的不管零部件的進口或者人的甚至於採購是有疑慮的現在等於擴大到他們的一般經貿部門過去比較親中的也開始設限了那回過頭來變台灣跟他就有一個合作的基礎所以這既是經濟又是外交所以我們這一次我方可以決定"},{"start":9202.805,"end":9203.486,"text":"反彈很大因為這個他們就賺不到錢了"},{"start":9231.946,"end":9249.351,"text":"那其實對台灣的生意人台灣的企業家跟印度勞工其實是有幫助的但我還是要提醒還是要避免排擠嘛那我最後要請教一個問題治安的部分其實我看到國人在擔憂的是治安的部分那我也藉由我們在立法院的委員會提醒國人"},{"start":9251.11,"end":9276.044,"text":"對任何族裔的人我們都應該平等看待,不能有那種僵化的或者固定的一個歧視跟誤解,對國內的族群如此,對國外也是。印度是全球唯二超過10億以上的國家,當然他們有他們的種姓制度,那個是我們他們國家的內政,所以對於"},{"start":9277.225,"end":9296.464,"text":"移工的進入到臺灣有關治安的部分勞動部做什麼努力我問最後的問題就好了是我們現在已經跟移民署有對接在合作因為這個治安的部分我們要跟移民署一起控管這樣子所以我們可以要求移工比如說無犯罪紀錄啊或者相關的保證等等對當然一定就是說"},{"start":9297.773,"end":9327.773,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":9328.033,"end":9343.83,"text":"但是對於近來的人的犯罪記錄以及相關的處理可能勞動部在初期要多用心一點好不好以上謝謝勞動部謝謝主席好謝謝王定義委員那下一位請我們王一鳴委員"},{"start":9353.029,"end":9377.398,"text":"謝謝主席那我想要先請外交部我們亞太斯許副市長好請外交部我們的副市長副市長我先請教你好就是我看台印的MOU第13條他其實有特別提到本瞭解備忘錄得修正或修改"},{"start":9378.277,"end":9402.307,"text":"就是第13條其實有這樣子寫那所以我要請教你的就是說我們跟其他國家所締結的MOU他是可以修改的嗎?內容是可以修改的嗎?如果經由我們國內的公民團體的意見跟立法院大家的討論之後覺得有一些內容應該要去做修正請問MOU按照外交的慣例"},{"start":9403.147,"end":9409.972,"text":"他是不是可以提出修改特別是我看在這一份裡面第13條有提到得修正或修改"},{"start":9411.104,"end":9435.094,"text":"關於委員我想這個案子因為是界定為這個協定那主政單位也依照這個條約締結法的第7條跟第12條的規定來進行那至於這個因為依照條約締結法的規定這個協定案我們都是送立法院查照但是因為大院把它改為審議案"},{"start":9436.815,"end":9440.336,"text":"那為什麼要在條約裡面就是去放13條就是得修正或修改?"},{"start":9461.894,"end":9467.104,"text":"如果是這樣的話應該當時這個連放都不要放因為他等於是沒有修正空間"},{"start":9467.881,"end":9495.254,"text":"報告委員這個MOU裡面是有有第13條規定就是提到可以修正的這個這個條文所以原則上他本來就是可以嗎?但是我現在指的就是說這個協定案在我國的依照目前沒有前例沒有這種就是依照我國條約締結法我們沒有送查照審議然後又修正的這種情況了解但是就他本身的內容跟精神是可以提出修正跟修改的所以才會放在第13條對不對我這樣解讀應該沒有錯誤吧"},{"start":9497.596,"end":9497.876,"text":"接下來請部長"},{"start":9511.618,"end":9535.637,"text":"部長,我上午聽了非常多你回答委員的一些意見基本上我會覺得你好像不太想推動執聘方案或者是說你對執聘方案根本就沒有信心也沒有決心因為你一再強調說續聘比較有可能執聘在你的口中所討論出來的是困難重重"},{"start":9536.471,"end":9565.57,"text":"是這樣子嗎?我會盡全力來推動。會盡全力來推動?對,我會盡全力來推動。但是你剛剛的回答讓本席覺得你其實是蠻沒有信心的。不是沒有信心,可是我要承認這問題不容易啦。好,那部長我要提醒你齁,在你們今天送出來的報告裡面,你們的會議結論提到了多數意見認為應優先推動直聘,直接聘僱,是不是?"},{"start":9567.432,"end":9583.604,"text":"這是你們送出來的報告喔是不是你們開了兩次的會議那多數意見認為應優先推動直接評估是不是其實應該委員那個多數意見是推動雙軌啦而不是推動直接不是你們報告不是這樣子寫"},{"start":9584.625,"end":9607.657,"text":"那個報告我沒有看你沒有看我沒有看我對不起你不要送來立法院的報告你沒有看不是不是就是我有解讀錯誤嗎這個是你們送進來的報告啊裡面提的非常清楚他說多數意見認為優先推動直接聘僱然後有移工團體認為一定就只有單軌的G2G我這樣有解讀錯誤嗎"},{"start":9610.834,"end":9620.217,"text":"沒有吧所以我要跟部長確認是說如果你自己都開了會議大家認為應該優先推動直接聘僱那我覺得勞動部就應該要全力以赴這個是符合多數你們開會出來的結論包括今天"},{"start":9631.041,"end":9653.592,"text":"其實不分民進黨或國民黨的委員每一個委員都在強調在這一次我們跟台印的MOU如果可以推動直接聘僱制度這是大家的期待就是連民進黨的委員也期待推動那所以在這個部分我又看到勞動部在這方面的決心或信心不足那要怎麼做呢"},{"start":9654.392,"end":9661.113,"text":"我要跟您報告就是我會盡全力來推動啦這個就是我要去嘗試然後要去對處理對會提出這樣的質疑就是因為你提到了非常多的困難你說我們跟韓國也不一樣然後又提到印度他本身並沒有職聘的制度所以你講了非常多的條件之後那個結論好像要出來了就是你其實並沒有把重點放在職聘"},{"start":9683.777,"end":9703.798,"text":"你覺得未來是續聘比較可行?職聘看起來還遙遙無期不是遙遙無期而是說我們嘗試來開始推動那你剛剛自己一直在提雙軌制雙軌制那你在比例上面呢?你說你預定第一階段一千名的印度勞工你的透過職聘制度進來的要有多少?"},{"start":9704.924,"end":9706.565,"text":"今天已經排了這樣的一個質詢我覺得你們其實應該要有備而來才對"},{"start":9732.721,"end":9751.276,"text":"那所以我要提醒的是說現在大家沒有反對我們再去開發更多的新的來源國但是現在大家關注的是臺灣過去的引進的這些外籍移工制度有很多已經被詬病特別是透過人力仲介被剝削的這個部分所以這個部分"},{"start":9752.197,"end":9774.749,"text":"為什麼這一次台印大家才會把期待放在既然你是重新去談判我們跟我們台印可以重新談判簽證MOU那我們國內的民意應該就是你們最強而有力的後盾你們可以把臺灣我們所開過的會議專家學者跟移工團體跟各界跟立法院審議的這些意見跟聲音帶著去跟印度溝通"},{"start":9776.01,"end":9797.826,"text":"那跟他們溝通說我們對於這一次雙方開啟合作對於職聘制度大家是重中之重而且是最優先所以我們應該要好好來研議在職聘制度上面印度方可能要配合什麼樣的事項我們又應該做出什麼準備雙方你如果說未來還有一年的時間我們應該針對這些事情好好的研議跟討論這樣的事情才會有進展但是這個部分我是覺得"},{"start":9806.192,"end":9831.971,"text":"你現在是部長你的決心跟你引領帶領同仁去走的那個方向其實非常的重要那今天坦白講我還沒看出你的決心那我希望你這件事情你應該要感受到這樣的民意還有立法院的意見你在這件事情你剛剛有一再強調說我們是因為缺工才跟印度不是因為跟印度合作要把這個職聘作為是最優先"},{"start":9832.691,"end":9848.849,"text":"但是坦白講現在的民意跟立法院現在表達出來的意見就是藉由這次台印合作的機會要把職聘制度希望他可以成功從這邊開始所以我希望你是要全力以赴好不好"},{"start":9849.289,"end":9854.014,"text":"拿出這樣的一個決心,這樣你下面的同仁才會往這個方向衝啊以你的回應方向是模擬良可或是你剛剛還有回答委員說是續聘優先我覺得那這樣大家衝的動力就沒有我們希望這樣子立法院實質的討論它是有意義的其實我們是給了你更強大的"},{"start":9869.83,"end":9892.521,"text":"未來要去跟印度溝通的一個談判的籌碼就讓他知道說我們國內對這個執行制度我們是抱著非常大希望而且你可以跟印度講啊過去他沒有如果跟台灣跟中華民國建立起這樣的一個新的模式也可以給其他國家這是一個示範也可以給其他國家看啊印度他也要進步啊他不是都是靠人力中介他們政府也應該開始學會去扛"},{"start":9894.762,"end":9895.122,"text":"這部分部長可不可以承諾"},{"start":9922.659,"end":9933.832,"text":"好,那我們希望台印的這個合作真的讓執聘制度從這一次跟印方的合作我們開始落實部長加油,勞動部加油,謝謝好,謝謝王一鳴委員那下一位請我們陳冠廷委員"},{"start":9955.014,"end":9982.744,"text":"我們請部長好請部長部長好部長我想應該是在幾個月前這個印度移工的風波那到現在偶然偶爾還是會有一些印度辦事處或者是駐台的這個印度的這些外交官員會聊到這件事情那我想這一個歧視的部分"},{"start":9983.604,"end":10004.679,"text":"我們未來一定要先做好預防免得會成為國際事件印度官方的認證那是有22種但是國人長期是對印度的認識不深那甚至包含勞動部那之前的部長那有一些用刻板印象的說法在這個電視媒體上面說到那我們這要全力去避免"},{"start":10005.399,"end":10029.594,"text":"我們希望說印度移工來台灣是一個非常複雜的問題牽扯到的是經濟、勞動、外交、國安其實都有一些關聯在我想請教部長是不是有相關的計畫來去增加台灣對印度或者是彼此之間互相的認識來去消弭印度的朋友或者是台灣的朋友對印度的認知上的落差"},{"start":10030.285,"end":10030.505,"text":"是,謝謝委員"},{"start":10047.348,"end":10061.344,"text":"貴院,我們也有這樣子的很多這個臺印的這個友好協會啊那我們希望能夠未來在外交部在這方面我們能夠合作更多然後來處理這樣子部長我是希望說把數字也拿出來"},{"start":10062.185,"end":10089.546,"text":"因為之前他們的說法勞動部前部長的說法他是其實是直接講到膚色這個是外交的大忌啊外交的大忌這個是直接是種族上面的歧視這不行那除此之外呃針對這一個移工在台灣的一些相關的數據還有印度的實質上面的不管是經濟治安上面的表現那如果可以透過對話的方式交流的方式把它顯現出來"},{"start":10090.887,"end":10106.438,"text":"讓國人對於整體的這個看法能夠改觀我想這也是勞動部必須要做的事情因為其實對於印度的刻板印象這個是很明確的很明顯的那我們必須要消弭這個部分勞動部是不是可以多做一些啊"},{"start":10106.738,"end":10128.188,"text":"好 這我們來就是我們會來加大努力來進行這樣子而且剛才我們提到22個不同的語言還有不同的族裔跟不同的宗教信仰所以印度來台的移工他的這個宗教的多元性多樣性可能必須也要跟僱主上面的溝通這方面有沒有做好準備"},{"start":10130.371,"end":10150.96,"text":"對,我們現在就是在進行一系列的諮詢會議,現在已經開到,即將要開第三場。對,我們就是把所有的這個雇主端、各種團體的相關定義團體都找來。大家,包括甚至通曉印度的學者,來一起建議,對,然後一起來大家來凝聚共識這樣子。對,我是希望說,除了形式上面,"},{"start":10152.38,"end":10171.494,"text":"實質上的跟僱主的這些溝通是真的是非常重要的,包含相關的勞動法規這些都要講清楚,不然到時候他都會隨時任何一個事件都可能會引爆火花,所以我必須要先做好預防,就是說不然"},{"start":10172.555,"end":10197.15,"text":"這跟我們過去的多元性比較起來印度真的是非常多元的這個可能自己要先做好準備不要讓幾個月前發生的事情再次發生的話那對台印關係會造成非常大的影響那幾個月前的影響到現在都還會偶然會被提到齁那這個是還是要先跟部長先講清楚齁這個要做好準備"},{"start":10197.97,"end":10220.672,"text":"然後第二個部分根據MOU的第二條那印度勞工的職類跟名額是由臺灣決定那你們5月的這個諮詢會議是朝小規模的方式引進製造業勞工為優先這個方向有更改嗎還是一樣對目前還是以製造業為優先對農業勞工會不會有可能會成為接下來開放的領域"},{"start":10221.744,"end":10239.073,"text":"這要看情況,要看先我們還要先觀察看看這個印度移工早期來的他能不能適應然後再進一步擴及其他領域這樣子對我們農業的部分因為從這個我們自己的選區嘉義他是台灣重要的糧倉"},{"start":10240.313,"end":10267.639,"text":"農民朋友們長期是跟我們反映這個缺工的問題那我是希望說勞動部應該要積極的跟農業部討論除了這種小型的或者是製造業的小規模製造業的勞工的優先之外那農業上面的可能性是怎麼樣那去年監察院的報告有說這個農業的基礎勞動力是又老又缺工的狀況那從這個圖表我們自己看到我們自己整理那65歲以上的"},{"start":10269.899,"end":10275.682,"text":"在台灣的平均更新規模只有0.72公頃的狀況之下小農經營的形態我們缺工狀況是高達10萬人次所以勞動部除了工業之外"},{"start":10290.189,"end":10295.255,"text":"委員現在就是我們跟農業部有合作農業移工外展移工啦這您應該知道嗎那當然"},{"start":10311.493,"end":10333.012,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10333.392,"end":10353.891,"text":"這也是要看再進一步看這個印度這邊的他們來源國有沒有相關適合的人才這個都還要再進一步評估啦對反正就是先讓這個工業先寫然後你們再評估之後看身體的狀況之後當然如果有可能我們都不要放棄嘛對不對對啊我還是在替我們農業缺工的問題"},{"start":10354.952,"end":10382.848,"text":"它已經是一個結構性的問題那我們希望更多的外援能夠進入不然尤其特別是這種高這種直接是高人工性的部分機械無法去取代的部分可能就會遇到很大的挑戰那印度的勞工或許是可以成為一個重要的選項但是還是希望說相關的報告這些小型的製造業先行之後還是希望說有一個"},{"start":10383.969,"end":10394.656,"text":"整體的報告出來我們來看看可不可以再推行到農業上面農業求農的問題是好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請羅廷維委員資訊部長先喝個水啊等你好有請主席請部長好請部長"},{"start":10412.848,"end":10439.357,"text":"委員好部長好部長第一次跟您做答詢我想跟您先表個態我們非常關心這個外送員的專法那我想這個召委也有提外送員相關的一個法案我們都很關心外送員他們的一些權益也希望這個勞動部能夠有所表態或者是趕快送相關的一些有利於他們的一些法案能夠來內部來跟我們一起審我想未來我們為這個外送員發聲的機會會更多"},{"start":10442.618,"end":10461.355,"text":"今天想跟你探討印度移工的NOU我想記這個越南印尼還有菲律賓馬來西亞泰國蒙古印度準備將成為第7個移工的來源那我想在這個很多媒體已經揭露相關的熱烈的討論我想有一些意見想跟你做一些交換"},{"start":10462.497,"end":10476.254,"text":"勞動部事前有沒有經過許多的評估才做這樣子的一個決定但是台灣與印度的民間交流仍有限如果出現重大的大量的這個印度移工國內外國內的一個社會衝擊有沒有評估"},{"start":10478.666,"end":10480.968,"text":"今天討論印度勞工的備忘錄,請問部長印度移工何時來台?"},{"start":10499.783,"end":10518.847,"text":"就是要經大院通過以後,我們才能往下做工作層級會議,最快一年以後。一年以後,那如果一年以後你會先辦小規模的試辦嗎?對,只是小規模先開始。小規模的人數大概多少?就大概一千人。一千人。那預計開放從事什麼樣的行業呢?製造業。製造業。對。會開放服務業嗎?"},{"start":10522.744,"end":10543.323,"text":"當然目前沒有考慮沒有考慮那我想跟您請問一下就是勞動部報告裡面有一個臺印度勞務合作事務專家的諮詢會議召開兩次有邀請部會裡面有農業部對所以是不是要開放印度移工從事國內的農業那只是諮詢啦那是諮詢對那並不是要去規劃開放農業的意思那農業部去討論諮詢大概哪一個部分"},{"start":10550.131,"end":10564.763,"text":"所有的開放業,所有你看像我們還會邀請衛福部那像其實因為有可能需要移工的領域我們都會邀請可是並不是說我就要開放這個領域了我們探尋一下而已對對對"},{"start":10566.684,"end":10584.178,"text":"好那在報告中第4頁有寫到印度移工入國前除資格條件限制要求減負行為良好無犯罪記錄相關的證明一將要這個需具備一定的學經歷請問部長有關學經歷的部分印度移工具備什麼樣的學歷才能來台大學專科"},{"start":10586.91,"end":10603.942,"text":"可能初期我們會限定他要高中以上高中以上我想許多人誤以為這個印度人都會講英文那事實上全印度會講英語的人大概只有10%勞工階層比例相對更低而且我們都知道他其實有那個方言"},{"start":10604.862,"end":10625.548,"text":"很多人都有這樣,他們自己有大概二十幾種官方語言,東西南北都不太一樣,所以未來在語言的翻譯上將是一個關鍵的成本,但台灣懂這些語言的人也有限,所以這個部分我說如果沒有世界的翻譯人員、官員階層又該如何將第一線的執行相關的能夠來傳達,這個部分我們有所因應嗎?"},{"start":10626.616,"end":10652.587,"text":"是當然這個我們其實那個委員剛開始我們會以通曉英語的為主啦其實印度10%第94億人口10%就幾千萬人了其實也是非常多的我們會先挑以通曉英語的為主好最後擔憂啦就是約有八成的人信奉印度教但是全台公開的印度廟宇大概只有一間"},{"start":10653.627,"end":10655.369,"text":"接下來我們請圖權及委員質詢。好,謝謝素綺。那請我們何佩珊、何部長。好,請部長。"},{"start":10683.715,"end":10702.892,"text":"好部長我們今天也針對我們跟印度簽署印度移工MOU的事情來做討論那這個其實在3月6號我們在未完委員會我們王昭偉的時候就有安排一下進行專題討論那時候本席也有針對這部分提出臨時提案也有請我們勞動部針對我們"},{"start":10706.114,"end":10728.12,"text":"這一部分召開跨部會還要請我們專家學者還有勞資、仲介、移工、地方政府等代表來參與希望提供對於我們社會影響評估、勞動市場影響評估還有政策可行性評估希望你們做一個具體完善的報告再來送交我們社福及衛環委員會"},{"start":10729.72,"end":10756.225,"text":"那這個報告我們在5月31日我們有收到那針對這一部分我想請問一下何部長我們就是因為認為勞動部針對之前專題報告的時候評估做得不夠所以也希望再進一步請專家學者來進行評估那因你在立法院幕僚任職多年應該知道我們目的是這樣嘛對不對要加強做這個評估嘛"},{"start":10757.245,"end":10765.292,"text":"好那我們就針對我們剛剛做講的這三項評估我們來看一下那針對我們勞動市場影響評估後來我針對這幾個看了一下我發現3月6號專題報告所看到的評估跟5月31號我們勞動部所提供這個"},{"start":10780.906,"end":10791.572,"text":"評估報告我覺得這個除了字數有做改變之外他裡面的內容意義看起來幾乎是完全一樣部長針對這部分你有沒有自己有沒有看過"},{"start":10793.814,"end":10819.145,"text":"委員其實因為大概問題意思是類似的啦所以他的描述大概就是指呢所以我的意思是說針對其實我們勞動市場影響評估報告其實嚴格來講3月6日跟5月31日其實做出來其實是完全一樣啦那意思也是完全一樣我就說除了字數改變以外其實看起來的幾乎是沒有什麼改變那再來我們針對"},{"start":10820.946,"end":10835.386,"text":"2.政策可行性評估 針對這一部分我們也瞭解一下他的全文兩個對照之下87%都是相同的跟3月6日專題報告所提出的評估幾乎是相同的"},{"start":10835.866,"end":10852.322,"text":"那重點這裡面移工服務不足最重要的通譯資源我們勞動部的回覆是未來在事情況盤點那我請問一下部長你知道在印度什麼語言他們使用最高嗎?"},{"start":10856.546,"end":10875.181,"text":"對,我們台灣針對印地語,我們到底手忍程度有多少?然後我們台灣這一部分針對印地語有在做檢定嗎?目前坦白講應該是沒有,可是我要跟您說明,我們剛開始一定會先以童小英語的人才為主。"},{"start":10875.962,"end":10894.605,"text":"而且可能要限定本英語才先來這樣子那我們針對這部分因為我也看不到有任何的做法那針對勞動部勞發署針對這些通益資源的盤點我們有針對這部分做超前部署嗎現在有在盤點中"},{"start":10896.066,"end":10913.764,"text":"有跟移民署而且跟移民署一起一起會同在盤點中對啦不過說實在話因為我們看這個評估報告我們看不到有任何的做法只看到就是說針對未來的情況在座盤點表示其實目前沒有任何規劃任何做法嘛"},{"start":10914.754,"end":10925.967,"text":"還有再來就是社會影響評估其實我們看了一下其實真的也是跟前面一樣幾乎這個內容我看幾乎也是複製貼上那針對這部分我們看"},{"start":10930.387,"end":10944.286,"text":"比較不一樣的就是我們有召集了第一次台印度勞務合作事務專家諮詢的會議那針對這部分我們看了一下印度專家有針對這部分提出兩項"},{"start":10945.708,"end":10962.978,"text":"﹗"},{"start":10963.118,"end":10980.524,"text":"我們針對這個評估報告所做出來的第一項第二項就是說印度在台灣的人數很少尚未形成大型的族群所以他的交流不平凡也難以串聯逃跑所以我們看得到我們勞動部"},{"start":10982.705,"end":11005.779,"text":"老法署我們花了三個月的時間開了兩次的專案會議那其實前面的評估報告幾乎都是大同小異啦那唯一比較不一樣就是有針對合作事務的專家諮詢會議提出兩個評估的成果那我不知道部長你對這部分覺得這個成果你滿意嗎覺得有沒有需要再"},{"start":11007.457,"end":11026.398,"text":"可以再加強啦可以再檢討加強好嗎對啊我是建議啦其實我們花了三個月的時間當初臨時提案就是希望等一個完善的評估報告其實等了三個月我們看不到有什麼特殊的評估報告所以其實這整個專業評估報告"},{"start":11028.56,"end":11049.565,"text":"說實在話,如果說這個論文拿去判定,我在想可能還是會被判定抄襲,因為這個幾乎是雷同,可以說是一模一樣所以我覺得三個月的時間應該要有一點成果,不然當初3月6日我們臨時提案,結果等了三個月是等這樣的報告,我覺得我們應該很失望"},{"start":11050.458,"end":11065.982,"text":"委員因為這個在我上任前處理的所以這個我想我來要求他們這個未來啦我們在做這種相關的評估報告的話一定要確實啦對我希望針對這個評估報告還是要再加強再來給我們審查我覺得這個報告幾乎都是複製貼上沒有什麼成果我會請他們來檢討改進好嗎好還有針對我們"},{"start":11077.756,"end":11078.216,"text":"我當然贊成啊對"},{"start":11099.227,"end":11114.829,"text":"對啊,所以我們看了一下從之前的許明春部長到部長然後我們民進黨的林淑芬委員還有民眾黨的陳昭芝委員針對這部分職聘的部分大家都贊同那現在到底"},{"start":11116.192,"end":11145.251,"text":"部長你覺得這個職聘的問題是在哪裡?對委員是這樣我態度上我是一定贊成的我也很希望推動可是我要跟您坦白說明這個職聘一定推動有它的困難那麼困難所以我講的是說我們要坦白面對這個職聘的困難然後要去克服我的態度是這樣的我們不要說誇口說我們一定做得到那事實上到時候做不到怎麼辦呢對不對"},{"start":11146.312,"end":11162.959,"text":"因為這畢竟對台灣來講是一個全新的經驗我們印度那邊好像也沒有目前那它印度官方有意願配合嗎?我們只能期待啦可是印度它初期一定也是以中介為主啦"},{"start":11164,"end":11189.238,"text":"這是他們的習慣跟文化那我這邊有建議啦因為我們也知道說現在要做一定有它的一個難度在我這邊有一個建議就是希望可以循序漸進去實施啦針對如果我們G2G這個職聘人數調整的比例如果在1000人的時候我們建議配套來做5%1000到3000人我們建議配套來做10%"},{"start":11190.419,"end":11218.377,"text":"三千到五千人建議做15%然後五千到一萬建議做20%一萬人以上我們建議做25%然後也可以提供僱主職聘的誘因讓這僱主有能夠提供優先的選工的權利那針對這部分我們希望依序漸進來做這樣子我覺得後面實施的可能性就會比較大不過針對部長對這有什麼看法"},{"start":11219.222,"end":11219.882,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝好請部長"},{"start":11250.316,"end":11263.642,"text":"委員好好部長好那這個我等一下這個powerpoint打開不過因為畢竟這個我並不是勞工的專長所以我大概會有幾個事情還是從外交的角度但第一件事情想先請問就是說這可以按"},{"start":11266.347,"end":11291.602,"text":"因為我們是從2月16日開始發生這件事情那4月2日的時候是送這個行政院說要備查那4月19日的時候呢說要改成做審查這大概這個時程那中間這個轉換呢看起來應該是因為有這個移工聯盟的這個記者會說這一個說說是不是這個為什麼要先簽MOU是不是要實質的審查那但是我這幾個有幾個比較小的問題第一個就是"},{"start":11293.003,"end":11308.994,"text":"之前我們在簽MOU的時候,因為這四個是我們台灣目前移工最多的國家,那我們是都有先簽MOU嗎?還是說有些都直接簽協定呢?都是MOU。都有先MOU是不是?對,是。可是都沒有經過審查。"},{"start":11311.075,"end":11313.637,"text":"接下來就是有沒有有一些狀況就是說我們是有簽了但是後來並沒有引入勞工的有這樣的狀況嗎?"},{"start":11333.43,"end":11339.736,"text":"在這個狀況到底要怎麼去做審查我覺得這是一件蠻有疑問的事情但它竟然已經 我覺得立法院已經做成這個決定了所以我們還是要去討論它的實質內容"},{"start":11352.609,"end":11365.419,"text":"因為我在看2024年2月22勞動部有一個澄清稿的時候這邊有提到說就是我紅色的部分說簽了以後依這個條約締結法的規定受立法院的監督那我們就來看一下這個條約締結法因為條約締結法前面的這個第三條第一項這個是條約那第二個就是這個所謂的協定是指條約以外"},{"start":11376.308,"end":11401.483,"text":"約國各方具有拘束力的國際書面的協定所以協定基本上要被查這個是沒有什麼問題但MOU的這一個拘束力到底有多大呢就是說我們剛剛可以看到就是說MOU其實也有簽了但是到最後也沒有辦法進行下去所以這一件事情要把它納進來我還是覺得說勞動部這邊可能也要一個立場因為如果今天我們確定MOU就是要拿來做審查那可能以後MOU都要審查了"},{"start":11402.203,"end":11423.886,"text":"這個可能也會造成我覺得對委員來講也是蠻大的一個負荷我覺得這一點我覺得可能還是要先釐清一下那再來就是這個我就先跳過再來就是我們在立法院這一邊我們能夠做的事情因為MOU到底能不能放在法律裡面放在我們的這個職權裡面做審查這個當然是先打一個問號但即使我們今天能夠審查"},{"start":11424.787,"end":11449.896,"text":"依照條文的規定看起來我們要買就是全部都退回去嘛我們沒辦法再做細部的一個變更不然因為它只是一個意向書而已所以要買就是全部退回去要買就是全部都OK是不是部長是不是這樣的一個狀況所以在這個審查的過程當中因為我們今天國防外交之所以會聯席可能也是因為這個原因因為如果我們最後的結果就是要買就存查要買就直接退回去"},{"start":11452.399,"end":11454.422,"text":"在外交這件事情會不會有所影響?"},{"start":11465.714,"end":11479.872,"text":"我想這一次真的很難得就是印度方非常的積極我現在如果說這個MOU不幸沒有通過而被退回這當然對雙方關係會是個傷害啊所以這就是變成說我們在"},{"start":11481.754,"end":11499.552,"text":"在這一份報告裡面讓其他立法委員在審查的時候因為我相信很多人會關心台灣勞工的權益啦然後呢以及我們對於社會的評估啦我覺得那都是正當的那都是應該值得討論的但是因為不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉所以呢可能也必須也要請部長多多也是跟委員們溝通"},{"start":11500.473,"end":11526.807,"text":"就是說它畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在那我們身為國防外交的委員我們當然不樂見嘛 對不對所以要怎麼打到一個平衡我覺得是重要的但是也是可能必須麻煩這個勞動部要多多跟其他委員來做相關的說明好那再來就是剛剛一直提到的這個直接聘僱的可能性因為剛剛有提到說這絕對是好事啦那但是說有困難可不可以再告訴大家一下那個困難的點目前是在哪裡"},{"start":11527.386,"end":11545.004,"text":"就是說這是一個全新的經驗啦這不是我們現在臺灣自己內部的那種職聘而是如果我們依照外國的經驗來看它一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦這都是企業在海外然後我們政府跟企業搭配然後這個大家去那邊甚至駐點"},{"start":11546.505,"end":11546.525,"text":"謝謝委員長。"},{"start":11574.685,"end":11574.705,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11605.188,"end":11619.977,"text":"接下來我們請黃仁委員黃仁委員黃仁委員不在我們請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在我們請陳培宇委員謝謝主席有請部長謝謝好請部長"},{"start":11635.495,"end":11657.589,"text":"時間有限,我想跟部長討論一下關於工會的事情我相信其實工會的政策一直都是勞動部很重要長期支持的政策我們今天要講的是球員工會的事情事實上在職棒球員工會或是職籃球員工會他們都有簽訂所謂的團體協約或者是目前正在跟協會討論相關的約定那這個是很重要的示範而且也感謝勞動部長期都有支持"},{"start":11658.57,"end":11683.951,"text":"可是呢目前有全國這麼多工會勞動部的支持畢竟有限那我們辦公室自己有提一個運產條例的修法提案等一下我投影片卡住那這個修法提案呢我們其實之前也有去跟經濟部討論過我們想要問勞動部是不是會支持目的事業主管機關針對相關產業工會去提供支持呢我們修訂的版本是在目前這個投影片上你所看到的我們增訂7支2條"},{"start":11686.033,"end":11704.754,"text":"這篇寫法我們來直接看到下一頁好了我只有兩分鐘這邊我們想要看一下我們另外一個問題是之前部長不知道你有沒有注意到體育界其實長期都有不對等的權力關係我相信部長您在立法院或者是行政院工作很久上對下的壓迫問題其實"},{"start":11706.255,"end":11735.018,"text":"除了在我們學校的體育班現場在體育運動產業甚至是相關的行政工作職場一直都有類似的問題我相信部長您身為部長您現在應該更支持相關的勞動權益那我們之前呢要求體育署必須要去檢視相關的勞動工作環境因為我們認為相關的勞動環境的健全非常重要我們之前要求體育署要跟勞動部共同去檢查這個勞動環境結果呢體育署他們做一件事情"},{"start":11735.598,"end":11744.301,"text":"他們先回覆我們辦公室說他們有跟勞動部一起去清查那我們就問他們說你們找了勞動部的誰?勞動部給了什麼建議?勞動部去現場說了什麼?結果他們竟然才說實話說沒有啦委員我們沒有找勞動部"},{"start":11751.089,"end":11754.313,"text":"部長,你覺得這件事情有沒有很誇張?我第一次聽到耶我來瞭解好嗎?是是是那部長謝謝你的善意喔就是你第一次聽到我也看到你很驚訝對不對?是"},{"start":11766.069,"end":11773.291,"text":"部長我跟你說實話我看到這公文我也很驚訝怎麼會發生這樣的事情那想要繼續拜託勞動部健全職場工作環境有兩個比較具體的要求也許部長比較陌生我們辦公室很樂意再跟勞動部積極的討論第一個可不可以拜託勞動部在兩個月內由勞動部針對中華奧會還有國內各項體育單項協會尤其包含特定體育團體"},{"start":11789.837,"end":11794.102,"text":"在體育署的約聘僱對向國訓中心等等單位啟動專案勞檢確認勞動條件狀況跟有沒有執行職務遭受不法侵害的問題有沒有機會來討論"},{"start":11801.673,"end":11822.812,"text":"我會來研究看看再來評估把前述的對象跟職業還有業與運動團隊包含具有薪資給付事實的單位納入年度勞動檢查方針並且在三個月內提出評估報告就好了好我來研究看看好那我們辦公室是不是可以再跟勞動部積極的約開會討論好沒問題謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":11829.441,"end":11842.713,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前委員不在我們請黃珊珊委員質詢待會黃珊珊委員質詢結束之後我們休息5分鐘謝謝主席我請部長"},{"start":11855.077,"end":11877.944,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11878.044,"end":11898.191,"text":"而且衛福部的調查是已婚女性高達22.7會因為生育離職40%不會再回到職場所以其實女性的勞動參與率一直沒有辦法提升部長我們您新任勞動部長您有什麼解方讓女性重回職場的方法"},{"start":11899.732,"end":11927.52,"text":"對 這個就是我上任以後我特別關注這一塊因為尤其是我們我知道這個尤其婦女喔她其實在50歲以後那個勞產率是更最來勢的下降這樣解決她的問題才是真正讓少子化可能可以改善的方法所以第一個問題是我們現在目前相關的規定喔性別平等工作法裡面規定超過100人以上的事業單位要設所謂的"},{"start":11928.24,"end":11929.801,"text":"我們有給企業獎勵但是只有獎勵因為沒有處罰"},{"start":11950.695,"end":11964.486,"text":"那如果我們法律規定在那邊又不處罰,只給獎勵,你認為提升的效率很高嗎?可是,是,我們當然就是應該要更加大宣傳啦對,金管會的主委常常請他們來喝咖啡嘛"},{"start":11965.856,"end":11980.587,"text":"你覺得我有能力請今晚會主委喝咖啡?不是,我說像今晚會主委會找銀行喝咖啡你可以找這些大企業喝咖啡或去拜訪,好嗎?這是第一個可能去拜訪還比較宣傳啦對,拜訪大比例的甚至公告公告誰達到了百分之多少"},{"start":11981.648,"end":12000.286,"text":"誰沒有答到方法很多請部長想辦法第二個部分就是為什麼不好不想因為上班有假不敢請有家庭照顧假有所謂的生理假目前為止勞基法都是性別工作平等法都是以日為單位但是公務員早就用小時來計算"},{"start":12001.807,"end":12028.139,"text":"您說家庭照顧假嗎?是的還有所謂的生理假我不能請幾個小時或者是我小孩去上個家長日是不是可以在勞基法或者性別共和平等法裏面增加以小時為單位這個是我覺得可以給女性很多的幫助周委員報告生理假現在可以以小時為單位喔對生理假放寬我們希望那家庭照顧假目前沒有親職假最重要的是我們這幾天開了記者會就是產假"},{"start":12029.5,"end":12041.708,"text":"我們現在還是停留在20年前的8週世界上的趨勢已經是14週了部長為女性爭取至少開始往前走增加產價比照公務員"},{"start":12043.817,"end":12045.479,"text":"這也是我們希望勞動部新的部長能夠為勞工多說一點話"},{"start":12063.678,"end":12064.719,"text":"我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":12516.448,"end":12534.413,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來我們請何欣辰 何欣辰 何欣辰委員不在 邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在 林德福 林德福 林德福委員不在徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在 我們請林淑芬委員質詢主席 各位大家午安 是不是要請我們這個部長好 請何部長"},{"start":12547.762,"end":12549.223,"text":"日本和韓國有職聘嗎?"},{"start":12570.307,"end":12585.873,"text":"日本韓國跟印度就是職聘模式你不要不要講說印度沒有G2G的模式有日本跟韓國就是然後你在今天一早委員問的時候你就說職聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧"},{"start":12589.296,"end":12604.768,"text":"要看我們自己,因為我們是全新的經驗不是看國家有沒有能力,是看政府有沒有能力然後你們所值的理由還講說國內的仲介能力很強,你回答立委的質詢你說我們的執聘要在國內執聘先行,去聘這個大家都知道,我們不再談這一塊你說國內的仲介能力很強"},{"start":12613.334,"end":12625.101,"text":"所以這就是我們一直在跟你說的仲介這一塊制度我們過去的四個國家都全部放給仲介然後仲介的這個問題在哪裡大家都知道人口販運裡面的強迫勞動高額的抵債勞務訓練不足國家退位專業不足所以照護的專業不足然後呢買工費仲介費"},{"start":12639.21,"end":12642.473,"text":"這個就是高額的抵債勞務在這裡都涉及到人口販運和強迫勞動在這裡面而我們國家大家社會各個領域都在期待說開放印度的移工能不能有新的模式你們一直告訴我們說這一次要採雙軌制"},{"start":12659.13,"end":12678.374,"text":"可能會有G2G的就是仲介加G2G的模式但我們在這裡發現如果勞動部都不準備而且國家不願意介入而且政府不願意而不是不能喔那在民意上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌那我跟你講說啊人家韓國開放了韓國引進了幾個國家的移工"},{"start":12687.745,"end":12690.326,"text":"我們全部臺灣引進幾個國家?臺灣是幾個國家的移工?我們現在四個國家嘛。四加一嘛。印度嘛,對不對?韓國幾個國家?印度還沒開始呢。OK,我知道。那你知道韓國引進了移工的國家有多少數量嗎?"},{"start":12706.374,"end":12733.65,"text":"十七個而我們現在只談一個印度要求你G to G國對國的模式只要求你一個連一個都不願意好好的做不願意國家不願意扛起這個責任這個不是國家有沒有能力是政府無能啊所以在這裡我們很多的人都跟你陳情說包括都反映說我們只"},{"start":12735.251,"end":12761.74,"text":"接看韓國模式他能夠運作的起來而且都是國對國的引進而且數量這麼多關鍵是他們有個space的系統你知道吧space的系統他們space的系統現在是不是AI時代大數據時代人工智慧管理的時代保證是不是?你連這種系統的做不出來也不管你做"},{"start":12763.749,"end":12766.43,"text":"你要說臺灣是AI大國整個資訊系統的政府整個醫化做得多好你知道嗎這個space系統把所有移工相關的部門串聯起來我們國家我們政府就是從來都不願意串聯起整個系統然後呢把不論是這個引進的這個許可併顧的許可"},{"start":12793.716,"end":12812.226,"text":"還有包括入出國業務的這個許可通通整合在一起而且要公開透明上網僱主可以上去看移工也可以上去看大家都可以使用這個系統包括簽證等等這樣整合在一起很困難嗎?這個系統會困難嗎?寶定你回答看看韓國的space系統對台灣來講困不困難?"},{"start":12818.709,"end":12829.554,"text":"委員我現在就是在請,我現在正在進行一個勞政友善化的計畫,我就是要求勞防署現在開始檢討,把所有的系統都整合在一起,然後減少...你們現在什麼系統對不對,串聯起各部會的系統"},{"start":12834.037,"end":12834.617,"text":"市長,您有沒有辦法?市長,您來講快一點。"},{"start":12854.09,"end":12854.791,"text":"韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的勒"},{"start":12871.006,"end":12897.374,"text":"從一開始開放移工就做這種系統做這種制度做這種管理而我們已經幾十年了我們需要什麼哪裡需要整合怎麼整合整個界面要怎麼管理我們還會不知道嗎是沒有能力而不是喔不是是沒有心不是沒有能力啊政府退位不願意管那你們講部長你剛才講說重建能力很好署長我現在講space系統年底以前做不做得出來"},{"start":12898.973,"end":12910.021,"text":"我們來努力好第二個你說台灣的仲介服務很好能力很強你知道你們的仲介評鑑啊評鑑為合格的優良的仲介比例大概有多高嗎"},{"start":12918.683,"end":12923.891,"text":"你們去年11月發布的新聞稿A級的64.5% B級的30%所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良的仲介"},{"start":12934.207,"end":12961.882,"text":"那你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法三年免促進一天仲介沒辦法在跨國收取不當的仲介費沒辦法再剝削這些移工他們轉而在台灣境內台灣境內直接要付買工費而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付大家都要付除非你那10%的職聘續聘"},{"start":12965.046,"end":12967.787,"text":"委員,你知道賣工費的行情是多少錢嗎?一個議員要繼續在台灣續聘,要付多少賣工費?當然仲介一定有良誘,他一定有不好的決定這不是良誘喔,這每間每個都有起訴的喔!賣工費每個都有的喔!"},{"start":12988.24,"end":13012.866,"text":"每個都有,每家仲介都違法在說買工費在台灣發生,要付多少錢?買工費在我們這邊是非法的本來就違法的啊,您取締一年,你們從以前到現在取締多少件?我問你非法的,現在七十幾萬每個人都續聘的時候都要付呢?你才裁罰幾件?"},{"start":13016.078,"end":13024.223,"text":"發言所以我跟你講說這代表什麼你說能力很好仲介服務很好他們幹這種違法的勾當你們評鑑還是94%都是合格的優良的"},{"start":13029.738,"end":13038.903,"text":"而幹非法的事都還是A級的、B級的委員我可以跟您報告我有1775家仲介連續兩年憑藉A級只有478家好啦這478家有沒有收買工費你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎我告訴你我保證絕對有收買工費"},{"start":13049.509,"end":13055.397,"text":"委員你可以跟我檢舉好嗎你不要講檢舉這種事情你不負責任你們政府不願意管然後退位放任然後你叫立委跟你檢舉現在沒有政府啊你現在是什麼政府這麼好做叫立委來跟你檢舉我要你政府幹嘛"},{"start":13068.576,"end":13092.469,"text":"這樣子當政府這麼簡單啊那我再請教你現在RBA的移工零付費原則雇主自己去負擔買公費很多大企業都這樣子啦否則整個RBA整個國際形象就壞掉了那你這個要先行人家你們開會5月2號開會也有人也有委員在問啊"},{"start":13093.61,"end":13106.429,"text":"你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則?要不要從這裡開始示範起?幾千個示範零付費原則有沒有可能示範?"},{"start":13109.449,"end":13125.019,"text":"國對國引進也不可能一個國家一個印度事辦一千人的規模你沒有辦法做出來Space系統要跟你們對如果這樣也要說零付費都顧著自己去負擔你也要標示一個人你有沒有辦法啊我們都一直在講說只能盡量努力啦高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動"},{"start":13135.819,"end":13156.078,"text":"所以今天在這裡是政府過去一直都退位不願意管然後就全部交給仲介然後在這裡今天不會要求你這個示範計畫國對國不管你是雙軌還是單軌到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來就會變成仲介一軌"},{"start":13157.219,"end":13164.567,"text":"所以你的國對國模式你的space很重要然後你的G to G你要怎麼運作也很重要人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力工團你知道的?工團要做什麼?"},{"start":13174.217,"end":13197.196,"text":"這個是行政法人吧?對,他是行政法人。行政法人代表國家公權力呢?是啊。他們扛起什麼責任?韓國的國家扛起了選工、負責選工、負起技能訓練、負起居留服務等。然後國家還幫僱主委託,可以受理僱主委託代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約。"},{"start":13199.52,"end":13208.923,"text":"這就是國家,我們的國家做什麼?我們的國家做什麼?委員我也很期待能這樣對,所以你要從這裡開始試驗但我要講說你從印度全立法院包括衛防委員會的委員到現在都沒有苛責你過去"},{"start":13216.346,"end":13223.812,"text":"也沒有要求你過去那四個國家的模式大家對你們的期待只不過是從現在印度模式事辦計劃一千人、一個國家一千人開始我們來讓出這一套運作的模式"},{"start":13233.38,"end":13241.57,"text":"所以現在只是要求你這一千個移工的引進我們來找出一個新的模式我們把過去強迫勞動的高額抵債勞務的通通都給他改善掉國家扛起責任"},{"start":13248.82,"end":13275.09,"text":"不是只有中介有責任中介引進來的很多人沒有專業訓練沒有技能訓練沒有服務訓練很多雇主也不滿意啊這個服務也不專業啊可是人家韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務還可以幫你簽訂勞動契約所以再加上他們space系統我們還講說這才像是一個國家日本日本的模式他用什麼模式日本的國家做了什麼保定"},{"start":13278.598,"end":13296.95,"text":"日本引進印度勞工他們跟NSDC引進這個執行也是採G2G的模式而且大家都知道日本也是一個公法人在處理日本是國家公法人在處理啊他們根本沒有在討論仲介費因為沒有這種事情"},{"start":13299.568,"end":13318.173,"text":"而我現在看到你們的開會會議記錄包括我們的外交部都說外交部就印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見倘若初期採取國家政府職聘的方式引進他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口願意承擔起來"},{"start":13319.293,"end":13334.638,"text":"並依照勞動部的需求跟印方洽談為考量台印之間彼此能見度不足國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重所以他建議這是我講的是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任他說"},{"start":13335.678,"end":13364.453,"text":"建議初期可以透過採取職聘方式引進優質印度移工讓台灣社會更加熟悉印度移工外交部說的外交部下一段說未來在市市場需求研議採取多元引進方式以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障外交部直接都建議"},{"start":13365.734,"end":13384.256,"text":"初期國對國引進外交部還有另外一點建議我念給你聽到印度方面執聘的機制除了NSDC以外還有一種是由印度政府指定所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式都不是"},{"start":13385.307,"end":13398.785,"text":"所以這個問題我們看是只有政府要不要做有沒有要扛起責任就只是這種態度而已而不是不能也不是不能也沒有印度方面拒絕沒有這一種事"},{"start":13402.697,"end":13405.58,"text":"所以在這裡我們真的是部長今天在這裡大家對MOU簽了看起來好像雙軌但是我自己個人很害怕最後變成單軌叫仲介跟以前一樣"},{"start":13418.214,"end":13422.737,"text":"那就落入了有一些在野黨的前立委講的嘴巴講出來的這個是不是有很大的哪一種利益已經在那裡先布局了有人這樣說嘛但我覺得不一定是嘛政府應該要採取破例案行動來證明國家願意扛起這個責任好謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢待會我們可以再討論"},{"start":13448.191,"end":13450.372,"text":"接下來我們請陳英委員質詢好謝謝主席麻煩請勞動部部長以及發展署蔡署長好來部長署長請"},{"start":13473.724,"end":13494.546,"text":"委員好部長好我想就今天這個台印雙方引進勞工的合作備忘錄的部分首先我想要請教就是我們本委員會是採逐條審查那審查的意見有任何一個條文如果沒有通過的話這個MOU就會全部就退回這個勞動部不予查照"},{"start":13495.347,"end":13506.023,"text":"那可是呢事實上MOU是外交部代簽的那實際的內容的擬定呢勞動部你們應該都有全程的主導跟掌控吧應該有吧"},{"start":13507.149,"end":13531.423,"text":"有好那蔡署長我要請教就是說這個MOU的內容有很多的原則是跟現在其他引進這個外勞的國家外籍勞工的國家並不一樣那有些就跟這個就業服務法還有執法以及這個行政命令是有抵觸的我就先來舉個例子給你們看就是在第7條"},{"start":13535.125,"end":13556.433,"text":"在雙方領域內指定醫院對勞工健康檢查令勞工醫療費用應由健康保險及意外保險負擔勞工無力負擔時應由印度方協助解決這裡的醫療費用如果涉及懷孕生產是不是也由印度政府來協助解決"},{"start":13557.433,"end":13573.191,"text":"對,因為目前這個條約我就確認這個部分那現行的這個外籍勞工的這個來源政府來源國的政府例如印尼他們有沒有協助他們的這個外籍勞工來支付醫療費用"},{"start":13575.173,"end":13601.756,"text":"委員報告目前因為我們跟印尼沒有這個條文但是在雙邊會議當中我們都有提出應該由他來負責所以印尼我們沒有簽但是印度有這個條文對印尼的條文沒有特別加注那再來我們看第二個例子在第10條就無證的這些失聯的印度勞工收容及遣送由我方負責無證的勞工應支付收容遣返及"},{"start":13602.716,"end":13630.441,"text":"醫療費用,印度方應協助促進清償。那我要請教目前印尼外籍勞工的這個逃逸的遣送回國費用是由誰負擔?是不是原僱主?目前我們目前那個遣送費用是由非法僱主或非法媒介。好沒關係那如果是的話那為什麼印度的外籍勞工就要由他們的政府來協助解決?"},{"start":13631.516,"end":13634.237,"text":"這些外籍勞工的遣返回國的費用有沒有規範在舊福法的執法或行政命令?"},{"start":13654.256,"end":13676.583,"text":"對,遣返費用目前在救護法有好,那如果有的話將來印度勞工逃逸的遣返為什麼是他們政府就要協助而印尼不用呢?這樣有沒有公平性的問題目前就是如果是屬於非法移工他要付的這個費用那如果他無法清償的話目前我們就希望是有來源國要負擔這樣的一個責任"},{"start":13678.322,"end":13678.742,"text":"第三個例子"},{"start":13696.5,"end":13711.051,"text":"上次4月25日的時候本席已經有質詢過勞動部變相有鼓勵逃逸的外籍勞工在台灣生小孩非法生小孩"},{"start":13712.552,"end":13732.644,"text":"我這樣講是有依據的啦當然你們不會寫得這麼明白但是有些政策就是變相的鼓勵那再來喔印尼政府呢已經其實對台灣的這些相關規定是非常不滿的他們是有聲音出來的因為我們這些規定其實都在製造他們的國內的社會問題"},{"start":13734.105,"end":13761.307,"text":"因為呢我這個我好好解釋一下因為印尼主要的信仰是伊斯蘭教那國情是相當的保守所以他們對於婚前性行為跟婚外情是零容忍所以呢我們再看一下他們目前的這個刑法的規定和婚外情的對象同居最高可求處一年有期徒刑2022年的時候12月6日他們已經有修法通過從2025年"},{"start":13764.27,"end":13788.348,"text":"開始即將生效就是未來發生婚外情將從現行的一年有期徒刑改成最高五年那此法也都適用在任何一位踏進印尼境內的外籍人士所以再來就是說根據這個印度政府簽署的這個MOU"},{"start":13792.721,"end":13798.106,"text":"但是呢,發展署給這些逃逸在台然後非法生小孩的這些"},{"start":13817.302,"end":13837.877,"text":"的這個補助跟安置是不分國籍和全體適用的甚至還有享有這些生育假碼所以因為由於這個跟印方這個簽署的MOU還與我們這個現行的執法還有行政命令是有抵觸所以本席想確認的是你們勞動部"},{"start":13840.387,"end":13842.949,"text":"救福法那個規定是合法移工的啦"},{"start":13866.355,"end":13885.584,"text":"對,是官方合法移工的權利部長你可能有所不知我當然知道你們的補助你們一定會講說補助是合法的勞工但是你們敢不敢跟我保證這當中沒有把非法的洗白然後撤掉他們逃逸的身份你敢說這一件都沒有嗎?"},{"start":13886.784,"end":13900.211,"text":"我今天敢在這裡講 所以我說部長你不知道啊 這個你可以回頭好好的去了解一下實際的狀況是什麼 到底有沒有這種洗白的案例"},{"start":13902.014,"end":13929.375,"text":"我們再來瞭解看看好嗎?對!請你們好好的去瞭解我今天講我們就有所本好不好?好!那也做這樣的提醒啦所以這就是為什麼我要一再的就是說一開始我要提醒就是說國民平等等一下對不起我漏掉了就是說最後一點我要問的是說如果這個MOU退回之後勞動部有沒有需要跟印尼重啟談判MOU的內容"},{"start":13929.755,"end":13959.29,"text":"那如果再重新簽署部長覺得說部長你會不會覺得人家跟我們會再重啟談判嗎應該蠻難的啦很難嘛所以這就是為什麼我一開始我要提醒就是說國民平等待遇原則下不能有不同國家的差別待遇那你們簽署的這個MOU有很多的原則是跟目前跟其他國家是不一樣那這裡面會不會有涉及修法的問題還有這個來源國本法本國法律的規定的問題這個都是要注意的"},{"start":13959.71,"end":13989.193,"text":"因為MOU它是一個基本原則的備忘不是說我們想要重啟談判就可以隨時重啟的事情因為規範的是基本原則的問題所以原則都沒有辦法堅持的話就有我們的這個國格尊嚴的問題這是相當嚴重的問題啦所以希望勞動部可以謹慎處理而且就是說日前我們的許前部長這個失言引發了風波那勞動部跟外交部都有發新聞稿道歉嘛"},{"start":13989.993,"end":14018.845,"text":"目前台印雙方合作其實就是越來越緊密莫迪總理的連任賴總統也親自恭賀也受到總理的公開善意的回應所以最後真的要好好的提醒我真的不希望說一個MOU還有重啟談判的風險所以一定要支持這個版本那我們今天就是要特別提醒不要造成不同國有不同制的問題如果萬一再引發爭議真的是一發不可收拾"},{"start":14019.465,"end":14019.885,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長好請何部長"},{"start":14052.506,"end":14068.914,"text":"委員好部長好部長本期在5月23日也在這個委員會有執行部長當時有提到就是因應社工人力是那勞動部要快速來公告修正這個外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第1款至第6款的"},{"start":14069.614,"end":14075.317,"text":"工作資格及審查標準,讓外國具有社工資格者也能在臺灣的民間團體來擔任社工師。"},{"start":14085.123,"end":14105.256,"text":"已經公告了已經公告了對已經公告了那就謝謝部長謝謝委員的協助幫忙這個公告之後就讓台灣有新的一批生意軍可以到台灣的社務界來做這樣的事情但是部長有要求幕僚去做盤點這樣會增加多少生意軍"},{"start":14106.036,"end":14123.159,"text":"你是指社公司部分嗎?對對對外籍的這個就是說我們已經公告了嘛只有幾十個目前因為他要有考到我們的證照社公司要有證照現在只是允許他可以去考證照應該是這個意思"},{"start":14123.94,"end":14138.86,"text":"二十幾個二十幾個而已對二十幾位二十幾位也不錯啦是啦 是沒有錯啦 杯水抽薪還是還是有朝正向的發展去嘛但是如果只有二十幾位未來會不會再增加"},{"start":14139.281,"end":14162.459,"text":"我們來鼓勵、來擴大宣傳對啊,因為這一兩年如果他的人數是往上在提升的那對台灣的這樣的一個社會公司的缺額的問題會有一定程度的效益可能很多僑外生還不知道有這件事對,我們來擴大宣傳對啊,這可以做你偶後政策相關的一些依據來大力來把這事情做好嘛"},{"start":14163.44,"end":14164.601,"text":"這是觀光署向國防會提案 那麼我們來配合開放這樣子 對"},{"start":14182.708,"end":14203.094,"text":"但是部長有去思考幾個問題嗎?現在當然是這個旅宿業的缺工非常嚴重,沒有錯嘛,所以才會朝這個方向要來做嘛但是我有聽過這個中華民國旅館商業同業工會的這個楊理事長特別表示台灣中小型的旅館職務編制、培訓與升遷體制都不像觀光旅館一樣齊全"},{"start":14204.565,"end":14204.705,"text":"韓國瑜表示"},{"start":14221.565,"end":14240.718,"text":"不可能說一個政策滿足所有的人沒有錯我們只是想說盡量來幫忙那麼因為幫協助企業解決缺工也確實是勞動部的責任那麼我們希望能夠開放這個東西其實是希望能夠增加多元勞動力的供給把人才留下來"},{"start":14241.559,"end":14260.656,"text":"那麼像新籍旅館他會他比較有能力禁用僑外生啦憑良心講因為他薪資條件比較好中小型旅館可能會比較難因為他的薪資條件就是比較低啊所以這個中真的中小型旅館我們會來另外再來想想其他方式可是我們有一塊很重要對於本土"},{"start":14261.457,"end":14287.667,"text":"我們很重要的是要推動本土婦女跟中高齡的就業啦齁在中小型旅館在這一塊其實是空間很大那麼在這部分可能要配合就是包括獎勵啦我們再更推動獎勵然後來協助中小型旅館來做這一塊的禁用部長就講到重點了齁講到獎勵嘛就政策上來鼓勵嘛對不對是是是對可是這應該不是只有勞動部一部有辦法去完成的事情嘛"},{"start":14288.378,"end":14313.254,"text":"現在針對婦女跟中高齡的獎勵是我這邊主要在推啦對,好,那妳是在這個群組嘛,這個族群嘛對不對我覺得可以針對這個族群,尤其是中小型旅館這個族群,我們可以來加大來推動對象就是中高齡,對嗎?服務業就是針對中小型的旅宿業嘛對啊你要把這個套在這個地方嘛對,而且這一塊本來就是所以單憑勞動部一起之力就夠了"},{"start":14314.215,"end":14331.528,"text":"我們也要配合觀光署還有交通部因為我們有異後改善缺工擴大方案就是針對旅宿業而去做的設計的一個獎勵方案這樣子其實現在也已經禁用不少人有上萬人了"},{"start":14332.554,"end":14352.8,"text":"目前有上萬人進到這個旅宿業有進到旅宿業嗎?沒有吧?比例多少?一兩萬人是比例多少?沒關係,你總是有做嘛對不對?就請部長回應我的,一兩萬人比例多少是進到你講的這個旅宿業?"},{"start":14355.561,"end":14373.525,"text":"差不多多少嗎?因為這個...我們要來看你的需求是怎樣?我跟你講,那個我們資料可以給提供委員,大概目前他們的需求大概不到三千人,超過我們的專案。我們的協助大概沒有...你講的他的需求不到三千人?是指旅宿業嗎?中小型的旅宿業嗎?對,就是旅宿業。那你用一兩萬人?"},{"start":14378.607,"end":14389.349,"text":"那現在就是說我們媒合經過它的僱用之後其實目前的就業媒合就業其實比例大概超過50%以上啦這個還在處理這個理事長對外發表這樣的一個言論是什麼時候"},{"start":14403.677,"end":14404.878,"text":"三千是他新提出的需求啦"},{"start":14429.899,"end":14456.061,"text":"是他最近提出的新的需求說有3000的移工需求啦所以因為我們沒有辦法在這個時候開放服務業引進移工所以我們必須想辦法比如補足橋外生這一塊比如橋外生這一塊也許可以有一些補充那麼針對中小型旅館我們另外再來設計針對婦女跟中高齡的開發在這部分的勞動力來禁用這樣子"},{"start":14457.022,"end":14463.312,"text":"我一直覺得部長你跟莊講的是不太一樣的範圍你們這個內容好像怪怪的"},{"start":14464.905,"end":14483.437,"text":"你現在講的說,現在這個理事長他提出來的,你們已經有備案了嗎?簡單講是這樣嗎?對不對?不是說備案,是我本來就在進行這個東西。針對婦女跟中高齡本來就是我優先推動的本土勞動力的開發。是啊,你還沒有就任部長前應該就在推了嗎?應該是這麼說嗎?還是你上任之後開始推嗎?"},{"start":14488.12,"end":14510.602,"text":"對對對對是啊這個本來就是我們要優先推動本土勞動力啦的開發啦這裡有56萬呢但我們因為必須讓缺工不等於低薪所以不能用移工來解決這個不能不能就簡單回答我一句話就好你現在要推的這一個我們本土的中高齡高齡者可以來到這個職場的什麼時候開始可以就是上班的"},{"start":14511.182,"end":14526.68,"text":"現在已經在進行在進行對現在這個就是你現在已經補足多少進去嗎簡單講就好了他們的這個算所謂的3000缺額的提供也是最近的事情啦啊這個都是他們覺得說要引進移工的數字啦是"},{"start":14527.18,"end":14547.035,"text":"對,那這三千人我們現在也可以針對用婦女跟中高齡來補啦。那我們希望能夠就是用獎勵方案嘛。原來就有針對婦女跟中高齡的獎勵方案。是啦是啦,我知道啦。就是你現在已經在做了嘛,對不對?對,希望能夠擴大來做。這個人員到位是什麼時候嘛?"},{"start":14548.456,"end":14562.473,"text":"希望能盡快啊,我們現在先,我們要下去來處理這樣子,對。所以現在就是已經這個政策已經啟動嘛,但是基本上...欸,政策啟動早就啟動了。對,人還沒有到位啊?這樣不是,是那個..."},{"start":14564.272,"end":14591.465,"text":"我相信中小型旅館這邊的缺工當然我們就是來協助我時間到了好不好你這個專案是不是就給我給我詳細的資料我來參考再提出相關的建言好不好好謝謝謝謝好謝謝本日會議詢答全部結束委員林益君、楊耀、盧憲一、楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報做以下決議"},{"start":14592.421,"end":14621.597,"text":"一說明及詢答完畢二委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求其限則從其鎖定現在進行審查本案比照行政命令一例不宣讀條文不足條審查一立法院職權行使法第62條規定請就本案有無違反變更或抵觸法律法律者"},{"start":14622.17,"end":14639.35,"text":"或因以法律規定之事項而以命令定之者進行處理。那我們現在先請委員表示意見。好那我們先休息五分鐘協商一下。"},{"start":15494.146,"end":15494.307,"text":"主席"},{"start":15567.372,"end":15588.091,"text":"主席主席要求發言我跟大家報告因為大家也都非常對這件事情這個MOU大家都有很多的因為那個國民黨這邊蘇衛原要發言那我們現在就我們黨團也溝通過所以跟大家報告一下講話一下"},{"start":15590.717,"end":15607.569,"text":"我看差距也不大啦,也沒有什麼衝突性啦對於MOU這些條文原則上我們是沒有很大的意見的要嘛就退回要嘛就修正嘛那有一些修正動議民進黨這邊也提了國民黨也提了所以我剛剛的討論結果建議啦就是出委員會然後我們兩個禮拜"},{"start":15615.194,"end":15619.637,"text":"內,就兩個禮拜後,做一次協商,一次委員者,然後把今天的負擔決議,勞動部你要把這個配套給人家洗洗好洗,你不可以讓我們這裡讓你出委員會都說MV沒意見啊,條文沒意見啊,你現在都不認同,三個了又沒認同,我們沒意思啊,對吧?"},{"start":15639.868,"end":15658.903,"text":"我具體建議是這樣那個基本上那個主席跟所有我們大家意見差異不大我們對文本基本上我還沒有聽到有反對的那現在對附帶決議可能是爭執在這裡那我的建議是這樣子國民黨這個王明明早委所提案的這個附帶決議裡面如果"},{"start":15661.405,"end":15674.303,"text":"如果有局部文字修正我們大家可以通過的話那根本也不用再寫上一次就照你們的附帶決議跟文本今天就可以出文會通過了這樣比較順利啦因為兩個禮拜後議題還是一樣那我看到這個文本裡面"},{"start":15676.697,"end":15702.302,"text":"還有我們的我現在是說我們大家來討論嘛就是說國民黨的負債決議的內容裡面有一個說明文定定因為明文沒有當立委了嘛就因明文定定執聘引進比例那我把這個明文明文定定執聘比例因為我們剛才講這個執聘比例這樣寫明文定定就會有產生一些問題是把明文改成具體原意"},{"start":15703.809,"end":15729.215,"text":"具體研議這樣子後面的文字都不要動然後大家可以來接受國民黨這個這個附帶決議我不知道召委決定怎麼樣就是說因為你明文訂定比例這切到企業介紹各方面那我們如果說請勞動部因具體研議訂定後面的文字都不動了那我們用這個附帶決議加上文本一併通過用最大公式給它通過不要再拖兩星期這個以上建議看召委怎麼才是"},{"start":15732.076,"end":15738.694,"text":"好來我們現在委員表示意見了等一下是林淑芬委員"},{"start":15740.615,"end":15764.566,"text":"那個那個我要說我其實坦白說我自己心裏面也會很希望有一個具體的職聘的比例你問我的話我個人真的希望可是我知道這件事情以現在要來做要明定一個數字的難度坦白說是蠻高的我說原因在幾個地方第一件事情這件事情的關鍵是在我們怎麼把職聘這一軌如何真正做到有競爭力"},{"start":15766.756,"end":15791.954,"text":"當能夠把它做到有競爭力的時候企業就比較願意來採取這個軌道可是如果我們沒有辦法把這一軌做到有競爭力的時候那他會選擇哪一軌就是企業本身的選擇或者是印度移工進來的時候哪一軌的選擇所以我覺得我們應該具體要求的點應該是在於怎麼要求勞動部把執聘這一軌真正做到有競爭力"},{"start":15793.101,"end":15809.23,"text":"實際上做到好用所以今天有一些國家今天一些委員在質詢裡面有提到有一些國家成功的案例或具體的案例我覺得這個事情是要求勞動部把它寫進去來做很明確的參考的我覺得這個才比較有助於我們把執聘這一軌給做好"},{"start":15810.271,"end":15839.567,"text":"甚至未來在執聘這一軌的比例越來越高我覺得關鍵是這一點不然如果我們今天確實訂了某一個比例比如說假設我今天訂50%我訂了50%可是到時候我執聘這一軌真的做得不好的時候到時候其實這個目標本身它的意義就不是那麼大我必須說坦白說可是我自己當然希望這個比例可以越高越好我自己當然是這樣希望可是關鍵是在我們怎麼要求勞動部把執聘這一軌真正的在做法上面做到好"},{"start":15839.94,"end":15841.281,"text":"這是大家要求的重點好了我們請林淑芬委員好各位不過我還是要回應一下洪委員的想法就是說國對國執聘這一軌沒有所謂的競爭力的問題"},{"start":15867.455,"end":15879.231,"text":"因為它不是一個商業競爭而且現在的企業已經走在政府和國家的前面了現在是大財團、大企業來拜託政府說你給我們國對國職聘"},{"start":15881.85,"end":15899.384,"text":"現在企業是這樣子來拜託政府的因為政府沒有國對國執聘那現在國際的壓力國際品牌形象的壓力RBA的原則他們都已經在這樣子看待企業了所以我們看到比如說星光他們還要求說給我們國對國執聘所以RBA的準則放進來的話移工零付費這個東西這個就是一個趨勢"},{"start":15908.832,"end":15915.677,"text":"一個趨勢而且國際的壓力真的很大所以我才說他沒有所謂競爭力的問題是企業需要而我們今天印度的事辦計劃裡面你要求資格引進勞工的廠商僱主的資格是印度要有設廠台灣也有廠這一種資格都是大企業而且這一種資格大企業都想要國對國執聘了"},{"start":15937.074,"end":15955.537,"text":"所以我們才說事辦計畫可以這樣子先來做那具體我在這裡還是建議就是說當然是把國對國職聘的模式運作出來它不是基於競爭力的這個因素而已國對國的職聘模式運作出來"},{"start":15956.378,"end":15976.393,"text":"建立一個好的模式這很重要而今天這好的模式必須有幾個要點第一個最重要是要有韓國的管理系統的跨部會的整合而且公開透明僱主和移工本人都可以上去操作不要被仲介壟斷不要因為資訊不對等文化語言不對等而沒有辦法使用這一個可進性沒有辦法進去"},{"start":15983.979,"end":15997.325,"text":"所以我們要求你的書面報告,勞動部你提出一個試辦計畫的書面報告。書面報告裡面要有三項的東西。第一個,要訂出像韓國SPACE的建制的計畫和期程。"},{"start":16000.066,"end":16012.189,"text":"計劃內容要有你預計完成的期程是什麼第二個我們都知道日本韓國的模式都是公法人行政法人就是國家要有角色絕對不能退位國家絕對不能夠缺席那麼我們在台灣我們國對國職聘我們的專責機構是什麼你的計劃內容要寫出來"},{"start":16025.453,"end":16054.402,"text":"有國家要專責的單位然後有專業的系統然後可進性高然後呢你第三點第三點當然是比較困難不過也是可以可以寫出來就是我們召委今天要求的訂出職聘的國家的期待的比例國家期待但真正的運作會怎麼樣當然是不得而知嘛但國家要有期待"},{"start":16057.003,"end":16077.555,"text":"韓國引進17個國家全部都國對國職聘我們現在要求印度一個國家一個印度一個模式你難道對光是示範計畫一千人你當然可以期待多少比例一千人而已但第二階段到時候再說嘛"},{"start":16078.679,"end":16106.695,"text":"連外交部都說他建議剛開始就要執辦國對國連外交部最保守最不愛做的外交部的人當時會去向你答應說我願意承擔而外交部在5月2日勞動部開會裡面竟然直接建議我們願意他願意協助而且直接建議第一階段就是國對國職聘外交部說第二階段再來談多元開放"},{"start":16107.597,"end":16122.956,"text":"所以我還是據你建議這三點這三點很重要請大家支持好謝謝林淑芬委員那請問還有沒有委員要發言好來洪森漢委員"},{"start":16128.649,"end":16154.445,"text":"我講一下齁,剛剛蜀芬文我剛剛講的競爭力的意思不是競爭力,我講競爭力的意思是他要相比於仲介這一軌要夠好用也就是剛剛說的不管是可敬性或者是操作的難易度甚至能夠讓大家在要做要是用國對國的過程裡面成本能夠降低這是所謂讓他的競爭力提高的意思是相對於"},{"start":16156.434,"end":16163.052,"text":"相對於在在仲介這一軌上面的競爭力要提高我是補充到這邊對"},{"start":16203.953,"end":16209.823,"text":"好那委員都發言完畢現在有兩個附帶決議我們先宣讀"},{"start":16214.349,"end":16231.137,"text":"附帶決議第一案為有效減輕僱主及印度移工經濟負擔、簡化執聘流程及文件勞動部應規劃僱主執聘引進印度移工的執聘服務精進計畫除設置專責單位並建置執聘印度勞工的選工資訊系統請勞動部於三個月內將規劃執聘方式引進印度移工事辦計畫之書面報告"},{"start":16239.161,"end":16260.171,"text":"寒送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員黃秀芳、林月琴、王振旭、陳盈、劉建國、羅美玲。第二案為因應臺印雙方簽署駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄後將引進印度移工入臺。原要求一"},{"start":16261.171,"end":16285.732,"text":"勞動部應指定或設立專責機構推動政府對政府直接聘僱並擬定績效指標二、勞動部應明文定定職聘引進比例同時提供職聘僱主優因例如減免就業安定費或提供優先選工等提案人委員王育敏、盧憲一、蘇清泉、廖偉祥、屠泉吉、陳金輝、邱振軍、徐曉新、陳永康宣讀完畢"},{"start":16288.611,"end":16299.696,"text":"那針對這兩個附帶決議,勞動部有沒有意見?兩項附帶決議都同意嗎?那請問委員有沒有意見?都沒有意見?那這兩項附帶決議就通過。"},{"start":16316.254,"end":16333.713,"text":"好 做以下決議 駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄之中、英及印地文文本影本案 審查完略"},{"start":16334.349,"end":16360.68,"text":"準予備查,免具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由王昭吉委員譽名補充說明。是否交由黨團協商?不用協商?好。本次會議一事入、授權由主席核定後確定。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。"}]}},{"id":"154329","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154329","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd125a191b621d7ec0fb086792d041729575d46e3ec26ac60baa90c1a2698e7ebc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:47:22 - 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為什麼我會問目前的進度因為上個月勞動部有舉行了一個引進勞工這個印度移工的諮詢會議那當中看到勞動部擬定的這個討論提綱我有點訝異啊老實說因為"},{"start":86.372,"end":113.498,"text":"例如勞動部問,請部長看這個投影片,如果採政府對政府基礎基礎職聘,我方雇主人力需求如何提供?還有由誰處理?那移工來台的這個生活適應及這個日常管理由誰處理?雇主有協助的需求誰來處理?那聘借期滿或因故需要返國的時候誰來處理?就是好像都還在問這個非常原始的問題。部長,我們來假設如果都是透過這個仲介的話,那上面這些問題是誰處理的?"},{"start":115.818,"end":125.166,"text":"國務委員報告就是在這一次MOU的特色裡面一條就是我們的第8條因為印方他"},{"start":125.99,"end":126.01,"text":"委員長"},{"start":148.072,"end":148.112,"text":"﹚陳昭姿﹚"},{"start":168.278,"end":192.69,"text":"好我會來努力好嗎?如果那些問題是仲介做那當然那些剛剛我同樣的問題應該如果是政府來做的話那當然就是政府或勞動部要多擔待嘛是不是?那第二個問題是更有意思啊如果要參照韓國的執聘制度就是在你們這個討論提綱那我方助派這個印度相關辦理人力經費用什麼方式經營或派駐督導那由誰支援等等這個感覺還是非常原始的問題欸"},{"start":193.37,"end":193.79,"text":"韓國的公團的模式"},{"start":210.861,"end":236.556,"text":"對,產業公團的模式其實他們是韓國的產業界跟韓國政府合作一起推動行政法人的一個這樣的單位其實我還是強調說因為好不容易有新的來源國那你要用一個大家全世界認為是比較理想有競爭力的制度就是此期實業這是一個非常好的時機那個現在部長你看其實勞動部是有能力做這個居然的居然"},{"start":237.056,"end":237.136,"text":"韓國執聘制度順利"},{"start":268.017,"end":289.29,"text":"我必須等MOU經大院通過以後我們才能往下走部長我還想再強調因為這種做法可以大大簡化執聘的這個程序跟門檻那我們才有競爭力嘛是不是因為明年就要進來啦明年這個未必未必但是你至少要在之前準備好嘛當然我覺得下半年就是一個很重要的這個時間啦是是是"},{"start":292.972,"end":315.345,"text":"上個月諮詢委還有一個結論就是說優先開放在製造業那部長因為我們知道你還有其他的問題要處理比如包括取消80歲老人的這個申請看護免80量表這個是當時您說那個開口破口會是53萬左右那恐怕排擠的重症家庭照顧那您認為如果印度移工也能夠補足這個可能的缺口嗎"},{"start":316.625,"end":324.35,"text":"你會不會考慮說家庭看護也可能開放、優先開放印度移工?你有思考過嗎?因為巴士量表這個問題已經存在很久了"},{"start":327.804,"end":344.218,"text":"因為印度移工他適不適合當家庭康護工這也是一個問題這要經過一段長時期的摸索跟這一個一初期印度移工這個部分會以製造業為主啦至於是否會是家庭康護工的來源我覺得這有待"},{"start":349.462,"end":370.629,"text":"因為有許多委員都提出,不只這個委員會,這個八十兩碼免評估其實在反映基層的民眾他們的需求還有醫師遇到的困難如果你認為這樣會排擠這個效應或是有人力缺口那其實本黨的科技主席他競選總統的時候他有提過是不是可能放寬家庭幫傭的申請門檻因為有些民眾就是擔心他家裡的老人、長者"},{"start":371.809,"end":391.555,"text":"他是他還沒有到需要照護看顧的程度但是因為年紀大家裡總是有需要人幫忙打理這個就是他需要的不是看護而是一個家庭幫庸但是請我想部長你可能熟悉這些那個點數你像這種資格非常的困難3個6歲以下小孩4個12歲以下的小孩那其中兩個還6歲以下那就是這個成員的年紀點數到門檻16點才可能申請"},{"start":399.898,"end":422.957,"text":"但是現在少子化,剩3個4個簡直是天方夜譚嘛。那就算爸爸媽媽你看最右邊最下面都是90歲。90歲也不過7加7才14點還差2點欸。那不可能家裡有很小的孩子給他補這2點的。所以部長三民治世代的壓力我們真的要幫忙他們來緩解啦。讓他們繼續留在職場上有生產力工作力。這也是勞動部要一起關心的。好嗎?好。謝謝。謝謝部長。"},{"start":427.568,"end":427.988,"text":"陳昭姿委員"}]}},{"id":"154324","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154324","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd193b509eddff1f40db086792d041729577ffb1ee7a12891014482f4bba2738ffd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:25:24 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12:34:21","影片長度":"00:08:57","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T12:25:24+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T12:34:21+08:00","duration":537,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1071,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時25分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，本席5月23日在這個委員會質詢部長，當時有提到因應社工人力，勞動部應快速公告修正外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第一款至第六款的工作資格及審查標準，外國具有社工資格者，也能在臺灣的民間團體來擔任社工師。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我當時邀請你，新部長，新氣象，是不是一個月內可以來完成修正公告？"],["何部長佩珊：已經公告了。"],["劉委員建國：已經公告了？"],["何部長佩珊：對，已經公告了。"],["劉委員建國：那就謝謝部長。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員的協助幫忙。"],["劉委員建國：公告之後，就讓臺灣有新的一批生力軍可以到臺灣的社福界來做這樣的事情，但是部長有要求幕僚去做盤點，這樣會增加多少生力軍？"],["何部長佩珊：你是指社工師部分嗎？"],["劉委員建國：對，對，對，外籍的部分，因為我們已經公告了嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：目前只有幾十個人，因為他要有考到我們的證照，社工師要有證照。"],["劉委員建國：沒有錯啦！大約多少？"],["何部長佩珊：現在只是允許他可以去考證照，應該是這個意思，現在只有二十幾位而已，二十幾位也不錯了。"],["劉委員建國：是啦，是沒有錯，杯水車薪，還是有朝正向的發展去嘛。但是，如果只有二十幾位，未來會不會再增加？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來鼓勵，擴大宣傳。"],["劉委員建國：對啊。因為這一、兩年如果人數往上再提升，那對於臺灣的社工師缺額的問題，會有一定程度的效益。"],["何部長佩珊：對，可能很多僑外生還不知道有這件事，我們來擴大宣傳。"],["劉委員建國：對啊。這個可以做為你爾後政策相關的一些依據，大力來把這個事情做好。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情是這樣，我為什麼會這麼講？因為這個可以當成未來一個參考指標的理由是，你看僑外生將可以從事旅宿業的中階技術工作，勞動部預計8月要上路嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：這是觀光署向國發會提案，我們來配合開放。"],["劉委員建國：是。但是部長有去思考幾個問題嗎？現在當然是旅宿業缺工非常嚴重，沒有錯吧？所以才會朝這個方向來做，但是你有聽過中華民國旅館商業同業公會的洪理事長特別表示，臺灣中小型旅館職務編制、培訓與升遷體制都不像觀光旅館一樣齊全，僑外生可能會願意去有規模的觀光旅館，因為僑外生大都是大學的學歷，基本上是這樣，所以臺灣年輕人不想去清房間，你說僑外生會去嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是。委員，我跟你解釋，不可能說一個政策滿足所有的人。"],["劉委員建國：沒有錯。"],["何部長佩珊：我們只是想儘量來幫忙，因為協助企業解決缺工問題也確實是勞動部的責任，我們希望能夠開放這個東西，其實是希望能夠增加多元勞動力的供給，把人才留下來。像星級旅館，會比較有能力進用僑外生，憑良心講，因為薪資條件比較好，中小型旅館可能會比較難，因為薪資條件就是比較低。所以針對中小型旅館，我們會另外再來想想其他的方式，可是我們有一塊很重要，對於本土，我們很重要的是要推動婦女跟中高齡的就業，在中小型旅館這一塊，其實空間很大，在這部分可能要配合包括獎勵的措施，我們再推動獎勵，然後協助中小型旅館來做這一塊的進用。"],["劉委員建國：部長就講到重點了，講到獎勵，就是政策上來鼓勵嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是，是，是。"],["劉委員建國：所以這個應該不是只有勞動部一個部有辦法去完成的事情嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：現在針對婦女跟中高齡的獎勵，是我這邊主要在推。"],["劉委員建國：那你是focus在這個族群嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：我覺得可以針對這個族群，尤其是中小型旅館這個族群，我們可以加大來推動。"],["劉委員建國：對象就是中高齡，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對啊。"],["劉委員建國：服務業就是針對中小型的旅宿業嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：對啊。"],["劉委員建國：你要把這個套在這個地方嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：對。而且這一塊本來就是……"],["劉委員建國：所以單憑勞動部一己之力就夠了？"],["何部長佩珊：我們也要配合觀光署和交通部，因為我們有疫後改善缺工擴大方案，就是針對旅宿業而去設計的一個獎勵方案，其實現在也已經進用不少人，有上萬人。"],["劉委員建國：目前有上萬人進到旅宿業？"],["何部長佩珊：有，那已經是進行一、兩年的計畫了。"],["劉委員建國：有進到旅宿業嗎？沒有吧？比例多少？一、兩萬人是比例多少？"],["何部長佩珊：對不起，我……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，你總是有做嘛，對不對？就請部長把你回應我的一、兩萬人，比例多少是進到你講的旅宿業？差不多多少？因為我們要來看你的成效怎樣。"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，有好幾千人進到旅宿業。"],["蔡署長孟良：我們的資料可以提供委員，目前他們的需求大概不到三千人，透過我們的專案，我們的協助大概媒合……"],["劉委員建國：你講他們的需求不到三千……"],["蔡署長孟良：是，不到三千。"],["劉委員建國：是指旅宿業嗎？中小型的旅宿業嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，就是旅宿業。"],["劉委員建國：那你說有一、兩萬人，就應該可以補足了吧？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，現在就是我們媒合，經過雇用之後，其實目前的媒合就業比例大概超過50%以上，這個還在持續當中。"],["何部長佩珊：所以疫後改善缺工擴大方案是從去年開始，現在我會再延長到今年底，也是配合這一個為了幫忙……"],["劉委員建國：這個理事長對外發表這樣一個言論是什麼時候？"],["何部長佩珊：他是前幾天吧？"],["劉委員建國：對嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：其實委員，他應該是代表比較中小型旅館的聲音。"],["劉委員建國：是啊。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們也很重視。"],["劉委員建國：我現在要跟你討論的就是中小型的旅宿業，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來針對……"],["劉委員建國：不是，署長跟我講的是需求不到三千嘛，那在這一、兩年已經補足一、兩萬，那等於三千個空缺cover過去是很簡單的一件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：三千是他新提出的需求，是他最近提出說有三千個移工需求，因為我們沒有辦法在這個時候開放服務業引進移工，所以我們必須想辦法，比如補足僑外生這一塊，僑外生這一塊也許可以有一些補充，那麼針對中小型旅館，我們另外再來設計，針對婦女跟中高齡，開發這個部分的勞動力，來進用。"],["劉委員建國：我的意思是說，我覺得部長你跟署長講的是不太一樣的範圍，你們說的內容好像怪怪的。你這樣講，就是理事長提出來的，你們已經有備案了嘛，簡單講就是這樣嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：不是說備案，而是我本來就在進行這個東西，針對婦女跟中高齡，本來就是我優先推動的本土勞動力的開發。"],["劉委員建國：是啊，你還沒有就任部長以前應該就在推了嘛，應該是這麼說嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：我就任部長以後才……"],["劉委員建國：還是上任之後開始推嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：對，對，對。是。本來就是我們要優先推動本土勞動力的開發，這裡有56萬，但是我們因為必須讓缺工不等於低薪，所以不能用移工來解決這個問題。"],["劉委員建國：部長，簡單回答我一句話就好了，你現在要推的我們本土的中高齡到這個職場的方案，什麼時候開始可以上班？"],["何部長佩珊：現在已經在進行。"],["劉委員建國：在進行？缺額三千……"],["何部長佩珊：對。現在這一個就是……"],["劉委員建國：那你現在已經補足多少進去？簡單講就好了。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這一個所謂三千缺額的需求也是最近的事情，這個都是他們覺得要引進移工的數字，這三千人，我們現在也可以用婦女跟中高齡來補，我們希望能夠用獎勵方案，原來就有針對婦女跟中高齡的獎勵方案。"],["劉委員建國：是，我知道了，就是你現在已經在做了嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對，希望能夠擴大來做。"],["劉委員建國：人員到位是什麼時候？"],["何部長佩珊：當然希望能儘快，我們現在要下去來處理。"],["劉委員建國：這個政策已經啟動了……"],["何部長佩珊：政策啟動了，早就啟動了。"],["劉委員建國：但是基本上人還沒有到位，這樣不是lag？"],["何部長佩珊：中小型旅館這邊的缺工，當然我們就是來協助……"],["劉委員建國：我時間到了，你這個專案是不是可以給我詳細的資料，讓我來參考，再提出相關的建言，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員林憶君、楊曜、盧縣一、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林憶君書面質詢：","一、我國目前外籍移工聘僱，從民國96年始有雇主直接聘僱制度，請問這個制度執行情況如何，有無申請踴躍？","二、目前我國仍可以從一些勞工團體、NGO看到關於直接聘僱的問題，例如：「聘僱許可函」的使用，聘僱許可函本身是書面形式、亦會寄電子信件予移工，但在職聘的過程裡面，恐因宣傳不足，產生資訊不對稱，導致雇主與移工誤會無此張紙本「聘僱許可證」即不能辦理直接聘僱。貴部針對此點是否要加強宣導，使有意直聘的雇主或移工理解聘僱許可證若因故無法取得，但移工或雇主有直接聘僱需求時，可申請補發？","三、此次印度引進移工的政策，以大規模廠工先行，惟我國即將邁入超高齡化社會，行政院日前亦放寬家中有80歲以上長者者，不需巴氏量表即可申請。據統計，此將會增加約53萬長照缺口，因印度勞工海外就業管道：「國家技能發展有限公司」（NSDC）能根據不同國家引進移工之需求，依不同產業別制定計畫訓練及通過技能檢定、且印度懂英文之民眾比例偏高，我國是否可以先行試辦一部分家庭看護移工引進？","四、臺印度勞務合作事務專家諮詢會議上，每種類型立場代表主張引進方式皆不同，我國目前既是多種制度讓民眾自行選擇如何找移工，民眾教育水準亦高，本身具有能力可以直聘、貴部直聘委託制度運行穩定，惟印度專家學者稱移工對口，印度主要以仲介公司、或是同鄉介紹，但本席認為「國家技能發展有限公司」（NSDC）有一半為印度官股、且印度英文人口多，我國是否能於下次會談，與印度官方討論是否能於此公司建立人才庫、人力銀行，使欲直僱之民眾方便媒合，完善整個制度？"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、勞動部對於新南向政策國家之勞動法令資訊，仍未公布於官網中","問題：在勞動部的官網中，有個專區為「重要國際勞動情勢及資訊」，用於推動國際勞動事務合作、汲取最新國際勞動資訊，其中一個項目為世界各國勞動環境及勞動法令簡介，又新南向政策是政府對外經貿政策主軸之一，推動至今已逾八年，但勞動部網站上仍未見印度及其他新南向國家相關的勞動環境及勞動法令簡介，勞動部雖非新南向政策主責機關，但基於行政一體，且日前勞動部也已以簽訂印度移工備忘錄，勞動部最快何時能將新南向政策所涵蓋國家（印度、馬來西亞等南亞六國，以及澳大利亞與紐西蘭，合計共18國）之勞動環境及勞動法令簡介上網，讓國內雇主及民眾能有更多官方管道了解印度勞動環境？","二、我國與世界各國相比，聘僱外籍移工誘因逐漸減少，我國已非外籍移工之首選，如何重新盤點移工政策，解決我國缺工問題？","問題：近年因產業回流，台商回國設廠，加上少子高齡化，國內勞動力極度缺乏。目前台灣在引進移工的主要競爭對手是日本和韓國，因基本薪資、物價水準等因素，在薪資條件下確實無法跟日本及韓國競爭，目前的幾個移工主要引進國（如越南、泰國等），經濟也持續在成長，來台工作的薪資誘因逐漸縮小。在薪資條件相對較差的情況下，勞動部是否能盤點其他國家對於移工政策的優勢，並且在可行的政策範圍內改善本國移工工作條件？","三、勞動部如何消弭我國民眾對於印度移工的刻板印象？","問題：許多國人對於開放印度移工有所疑慮，印度在信仰及文化與我國不同，也與過去移工主要來源國不一樣，部分國人對於印度曾傳出的社會新聞也感到不安，即使來台工作的移工須提供良民證明，但勞動部未來引進印度移工前，仍須與社會大眾進行充足的溝通與說明。","勞動部對於彌平社會大眾對印度的刻板印象，有何作為？以及如何減少社會上對於移工的種族歧視？否則在未來國際搶人大戰中一定會更加劣勢。","四、民眾質疑大舉開放移工將使本勞薪資難以爭取調整。","問題：現階段大多數企業處理人力短缺問題時，最希望爭取直接補充外籍勞工的選項，但民團認為，部分產業缺工源自薪資過低，一旦加薪，現在看起來缺工的產業就會有人願意做，且從近年稅收超徵的情形看來，顯示台灣多數的企業確實是有賺錢的，仍舊缺工的產業則依靠既有移工，不需要開放新移工國。","請問勞動部，勞工認為薪資過低，是否為調薪幅度跟不上物價指數的上漲，才會讓勞工對於調薪無感？又我國引進移工政策的勞動政策，主要是針對不足的部份才由移工補充，將外籍移工定位在「補充性的勞動力」，非「替代性勞動力」，使移工無法取代本國勞動力，但有民團擔心，企業大量聘用外籍勞動力，會使得調整本國勞工薪資待遇增添阻力，勞動部看法為何？以及勞動部的政策工具要如何避免上述情形發生？"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問勞動部預計：","每一年引進多少位印度移工？開放哪些行業別？台印MOU之內容是什麼？為什麼要引進印度移工？"],["委員楊瓊瓔書面質詢：","一、本席邀請勞動部。我國駐印度代表葛葆萱、印度台北協會會長葉達夫，2月16日以視訊方式簽署MOU（勞工合作備忘錄），待雙方舉行工作會議確認施行細則後，台灣將正式引進印度移工。MOU中明定印度移工開放行業及人數由台灣方決定，印度方將依台灣方需求招募及訓練印度移工，並依雙方法令規定引進僱用。請教部長，已經與印度方展開會議討論了嗎？目前我方有需求的行業別有哪些？需求人數擬定了嗎？台灣引進移工政策若是以補充性為原則，也就是雇主必須先招募國內勞工，如台灣勞工不願從事，才能根據清單引進移工，那針對外界擔憂影響國人薪資及排擠工作機會您有把握不會發生嗎？","二、如今有新的移工來源國即將加入，政府應亡羊補牢，針對台灣整體勞動條件提出更好的配套，避免移工愈悲慘、本勞愈悲哀的問題。不論何種國籍移工在台工作，經常從事高危險營建業或製造業、面臨高工時、宿舍環境不佳等問題，而且部分雇主會使用較高薪水聘僱國內勞工，換成移工卻只願給予法定最低薪資。請教部長，這種「同工不同酬」的狀況如何解決？政府健全勞動環境的具體措施為何？","三、內政部統計數據逃逸外勞累計已超過8萬人，外籍移工行蹤不明率與人數甚至持續增加中，監察院去年調查報告指出，仲介占了移工逃逸原因的大宗，過高的仲介費是失聯推力之首。台灣自1992年開放引進移工以來，私人仲介制度就成為了移工就業市場的主導力量，業者利用現行引進機制壟斷市場，進行高額收費和剝削，導致移工處於弱勢地位。請教部長，多年的逃逸外勞情況如何改善？移工團體主張廢除私人仲介制度，實行政府對政府的直接引進，是否可以解決移工被剝削的問題？還是需要訂定專法？"],["主席：作以下決議：一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","現在進行審查。本案比照行政命令，依例不宣讀條文，不逐條審查，依立法院職權行使法第六十二條規定，請就本案有無違反變更或牴觸法律者，或應以法律規定之事項，而以命令定之者，進行處理。我們現在先請委員表示意見。好，我們先休息5分鐘，協商一下。","休息（12時35分）","繼續開會（12時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.23346875,"end":1.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.0222187500000004,"end":3.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.32534375,"end":7.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.185968750000001,"end":7.658468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.19846875,"end":37.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.459093750000001,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.492843750000002,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.01346875,"end":31.367843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.722218750000003,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.17721875,"end":36.970343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.20221875,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.04596875,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.06284375,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.68721875,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.69534375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.10034375,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.16784375,"end":44.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.16346875,"end":46.690343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.06596875,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.84159375,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.305343750000006,"end":53.727218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.970968750000004,"end":61.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.06784375,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.91534375,"end":65.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.60721875,"end":66.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.49721875,"end":77.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.49659375,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.77471875,"end":74.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.87534375,"end":77.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.89221875,"end":79.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.90909375000001,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.64721875000001,"end":80.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.87909375000001,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.92971875,"end":81.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.54971875000001,"e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有請部長好請何部長委員好部長好部長本期在5月23日也在這個委員會有執行部長當時有提到就是因應社工人力是那勞動部要快速來公告修正這個外國人從事就業服務法第46條第1項第1款至第6款的"},{"start":23.621,"end":28.965,"text":"工作資格及審查標準,讓外國具有社工資格者也能在臺灣的民間團體來擔任社工師。"},{"start":39.133,"end":59.263,"text":"已經公告了已經公告了對已經公告了那就謝謝部長謝謝委員的協助幫忙這個公告之後就讓台灣有新的一批生意軍可以到台灣的社務界來做這樣的事情但是部長有要求幕僚去做盤點這樣會增加多少生意軍"},{"start":60.043,"end":77.166,"text":"你是指社公司部分嗎?對對對外籍的這個就是說我們已經公告了嘛只有幾十個目前因為他要有考到我們的證照社公司要有證照現在只是允許他可以去考證照應該是這個意思"},{"start":78.107,"end":92.87,"text":"二十幾個二十幾個而已對二十幾位二十幾位也不錯啦是啦 是沒有錯啦 杯水抽薪還是還是有朝正向的發展去嘛但是如果只有二十幾位為了會不會再增加"},{"start":93.291,"end":114.305,"text":"我們來鼓勵、來擴大宣傳因為這一兩年如果他的人數是往上在提升的那對台灣的這樣的一個社會公司的缺額的問題會有一定程度的效益可能很多僑外生還不知道有這件事我們來擴大宣傳這可以做你偶後政策相關的一些依據大力來把這個事情做好"},{"start":117.447,"end":118.628,"text":"這是觀光署向國防會提案 那麼我們來配合開放這樣子 對"},{"start":136.718,"end":161.796,"text":"但是部長有去思考幾個問題嗎?現在當然是這個旅宿業的缺工非常嚴重沒有錯嘛所以才會朝這個方向要來做嘛但是我有聽過這個中華民國旅館商業同業工會的這個楊理事長特別表示台灣中小型的旅館職務編制培訓與升遷體制都不像觀光旅館一樣齊全那橋外生可能會願意去有規模的這個觀光旅館然後"},{"start":165.444,"end":165.464,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":195.564,"end":195.584,"text":"﹚劉建國"},{"start":215.467,"end":241.677,"text":"我們很重要的是要推動本土婦女跟中高齡的就業在中小型旅館在這一塊其實是空間很大那麼在這部分可能要配合就是包括獎勵啦我們再更推動獎勵然後來協助中小型旅館來做這一塊的禁用部長就講到重點了講到獎勵嘛就政策上來鼓勵嘛對不對是是是對可是這應該不是只有勞動部一部有辦法去完成的事情嘛"},{"start":242.385,"end":267.264,"text":"現在針對婦女跟中高齡的獎勵是我這邊主要在推啦對,好,那妳是 focus 在這個群組嘛,這個族群嘛對不對我覺得可以針對這個族群,尤其是中小型旅館這個族群,我們可以來加大來推動對象就是中高齡,對不對,服務業就是針對中小型的旅宿業嘛對啊你要把這個套在這個地方嘛對,而且這一塊本來就是所以單憑勞動部一己之力就夠了"},{"start":268.226,"end":285.558,"text":"我們也要配合觀光署還有交通部因為我們有疫後改善缺工擴大方案就是針對旅宿業而去做的設計的一個獎勵方案這樣子其實現在也已經禁用不少人有上萬人了"},{"start":286.564,"end":306.811,"text":"目前有上萬人進到這個旅宿業有進到旅宿業嗎?沒有吧?比例多少?一兩萬人是比例多少?沒關係,你總是有做嘛,對不對?就請部長回應我的,一兩萬人,比例多少是進到你講的這個旅宿業?"},{"start":309.572,"end":329.389,"text":"差不多多少嗎?因為這個...我們要來看你的需求是怎樣?我跟你講,那個我們資料可以給提供委員,大概目前他們的需求大概不到三千人,跳過我們的專案。我們的協助大概沒有...你講的他的需求不到三千人?是指旅宿業嗎?中小型的旅宿業嗎?對,就是旅宿業。那你用一兩萬人?"},{"start":330.41,"end":331.19,"text":"李社長對外發表這樣的一個言論是什麼時候?"},{"start":357.688,"end":380.588,"text":"他是前幾天吧?其實委員他是代表應該是比較中小型旅館的聲音是啊是啊是啊我們也很重視我們也很重視我們來針對不是 所長跟我講的是三千嘛需求不到三千嘛那你已經在這一兩年已經補足一兩萬那等於他三千跟喀巴過去是很簡單的一件事情三千是他新提出的需求啦"},{"start":381.148,"end":405.447,"text":"新提出的需求是他最近提出的新的需求說有3000的移工需求所以因為我們沒有辦法在這個時候開放服務業引進移工所以我們必須想辦法比如補足橋外生這一塊比如橋外生這一塊也許可以有一些補充那麼針對中小型旅館我們另外再來設計針對婦女跟中高齡的開發在這部分的勞動力來禁用這樣子"},{"start":411.032,"end":417.323,"text":"我一直覺得部長你跟莊講的是不太一樣的範圍你們這個內容好像怪怪的"},{"start":418.915,"end":437.447,"text":"你現在講的說,現在這個理事長他提出來的,你們已經有備案了嗎?簡單講是這樣嗎?對不對?不是說備案,是我本來就在進行這個東西。針對婦女跟中高齡本來就是我優先推動的本土勞動力的開發。是啊,你還沒有就任部長前應該就在推了嗎?應該是這麼說嗎?還是你上任之後開始推嗎?"},{"start":442.13,"end":464.612,"text":"對對對對是啊這個本來就是我們要優先推動本土勞動力啦的開發啦這裡有56萬呢但我們因為必須讓缺工不等於低薪所以不能用移工來解決這個不能不能就簡單回答我一句話就好你現在要推的這一個我們本土的中高齡高齡者可以來到這個職場的什麼時候開始可以就是上班的"},{"start":465.192,"end":480.389,"text":"現在已經在進行在進行對現在這個就是你現在已經補足多少進去嗎?簡單講就好了他們的這個所謂的3000缺額的提供也是最近的事情啦啊這個都是他們覺得說要引進移工的數字啦"},{"start":481.19,"end":501.045,"text":"對,那這三千人我們現在也可以針對用婦女跟中高齡來補啦。那我們希望能夠就是用獎勵方案嘛。原來就有針對婦女跟中高齡的獎勵方案。是啦是啦,我知道啦。就是你現在已經在做嘛,對不對?對,希望能夠擴大來做。這個人員到位是什麼時候嘛?"},{"start":502.285,"end":516.486,"text":"他希望能盡快啊,我們現在先,我們要下去來處理這樣子,對。所以現在就是已經這個政策已經啟動嘛,但是基本上...欸?政策啟動?早就啟動了。對,人還沒有到位啊?這樣不是...是那個..."},{"start":517.882,"end":518.443,"text":"本日會議詢答"}]}},{"id":"154320","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154320","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd13c7eaf9a2f72d432b086792d041729577ffb1ee7a12891018bb73d48aa6b54ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:15:31 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12:25:19","影片長度":"00:09:48","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T12:15:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T12:25:19+08:00","duration":588,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":1029,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時15分）好，謝謝主席，麻煩請勞動部部長及發展署蔡署長。"],["主席：好，來，部長、署長，請。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好，就今天臺印雙方引進勞工的合作備忘錄的部分，首先我想要請教的就是，本委員會是採逐條審查，審查的意見有任何一個條文如果沒有通過的話，這個MOU就會全部退回勞動部，不予查照。可是事實上MOU是外交部代簽的，實際內容的擬定，勞動部你們應該都有全程的主導跟掌控吧？應該有吧？"],["何部長佩珊：有。"],["陳委員瑩：好。蔡署長，我要請教這個MOU的內容有很多的原則是跟現在其他引進外籍勞工的國家並不一樣，有些跟就業服務法及其子法與行政命令是有牴觸的。我就先來舉個例子給你們看，第七條規定「在雙方代表領域內分別指定醫院對勞工進行健康檢查」，另勞工醫療費用應由健康保險及意外保險負擔，勞工無力負擔時，應由印度方協助解決。這裡的醫療費用，如果涉及懷孕生產，是不是也由印度政府來協助解決？"],["蔡署長孟良：對。因為目前這個條約……"],["陳委員瑩：我就確認這個部分。好。那現行的外籍勞工來源國的政府，例如印尼有沒有協助他們的外籍勞工來支付醫療費用？有沒有？有還是沒有？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，目前因為我們跟印尼沒有這個條文，但是在雙邊會議當中我們都有提出，應該由他們來負責。"],["陳委員瑩：所以印尼我們沒有簽，但是印度有這個條文？"],["蔡署長孟良：對。印尼的條文沒有特別加註。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。再來，我們看第二個例子，在第十條規定，無證的失聯印度勞工的收容及遣送，由我方負責，無證的勞工應支付收容遣返及醫療費用，印度方應協助促進清償。我要請教，目前印尼外籍勞工逃逸後遣送回國費用是由誰負擔？是不是原雇主？"],["蔡署長孟良：目前遣送費用是由非法雇主或非法媒介……"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係。如果是的話，為什麼印度的外籍勞工就要由他們的政府來協助解決，印尼政府就可以不必協助？這就是差別嘛。條文有沒有載，就有這種差別啊，沒錯吧？"],["蔡署長孟良：是。因為……"],["陳委員瑩：好，確實。那我們就繼續，沒關係。這些外籍勞工遣返回國的費用，有沒有規範在就服法的子法或行政命令？"],["蔡署長孟良：對。遣返費用目前在就服法有，就是由……"],["陳委員瑩：好，如果有的話，將來印度勞工逃逸的遣返，為什麼他們政府就要協助，而印尼不用呢？這樣有沒有公平性的問題？"],["蔡署長孟良：目前如果是屬於非法移工要負的這個費用，如果他無法清償的話，我們就是希望是由來源國負擔這樣的一個責任。"],["陳委員瑩：你是指印度還是全部？"],["蔡署長孟良：我們跟其他四個來源國都要求，在雙邊都要求他們要負……"],["陳委員瑩：在MOU的簽署就有差別嘛，就是有寫上跟沒寫上嘛。"],["蔡署長孟良：是。"],["陳委員瑩：有沒有希望跟你有沒有寫上去，那就不一樣啊！好，再來第三個例子，上次4月25日的時候本席已經有質詢過勞動部變相鼓勵逃逸的外籍勞工在臺灣非法生小孩，我這樣講是有依據的，當然你們不會寫得這麼明白，但是有一些政策就是變相的鼓勵。印尼政府其實已經對臺灣這些相關規定非常不滿，是有聲音出來的，因為我們這些規定其實都在製造他們國內的社會問題。我好好解釋一下，因為印尼主要的信仰是伊斯蘭教，國情相當保守，所以他們對於婚前性行為跟婚外情是零容忍，我們再看一下他們目前的刑法規定，和婚外情的對象同居，最高可求處一年有期徒刑。而且2022年12月6日他們已經修法通過，2025年即將生效，未來發生婚外情，將從現行的一年有期徒刑改成最高五年，此法也都適用在任何一位踏進印尼境內的外籍人士。","根據印度政府簽署的MOU，無證逃逸印度勞工的收容、遣返、醫療（包含生產）的費用，都是由印度方來協助清償。但是發展署給這些在臺逃逸非法生小孩外籍勞工的補助跟安置，是不分國籍、全體適用的，甚至還享有生育假。由於跟印方簽署的MOU與我們現行的子法及行政命令是有牴觸的，所以本席想確認的是，你們勞動部鼓勵並支援非法的逃逸外勞在臺灣生小孩，唯獨不鼓勵也不支持印度的，是這樣子嗎？我就是想要確認，因為MOU的簽署就不同嘛。"],["何部長佩珊：委員應該有點誤解。就服法那個規定是規範合法移工的啦，是合法移工的權利。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，但是你可能有所不知……"],["何部長佩珊：它不可能是針對非法……"],["陳委員瑩：我當然知道你們一定會講說是補助合法的勞工，但是你們敢不敢跟我保證這當中沒有把非法的洗白，然後撤掉他們逃逸的身分？你敢說這一件都沒有嗎？我今天敢在這裡講……"],["何部長佩珊：非法要洗白……"],["陳委員瑩：所以我說部長你不知道啊！這個你可以回頭好好地去瞭解一下實際的狀況是什麼，到底有沒有這種洗白的案例？"],["何部長佩珊：我們再來瞭解看看好嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：對，請你們好好地去瞭解。我今天講，我們就有所本，好不好？也做這樣的提醒喔。所以這就是為什麼我要一再說……","最後一點，我要問的是，如果這個MOU退回，之後勞動部有沒有需要跟印尼重啟談判MOU的內容？"],["何部長佩珊：如果被退回……"],["陳委員瑩：如果再重新簽署，部長，人家跟我們會再重啟談判嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：應該滿難的。"],["陳委員瑩：不可能嘛！很難嘛！所以這就是為什麼我一開始就要提醒，國民平等待遇原則下，不能有不同國家的差別待遇，你們簽署這個MOU有很多原則是跟其他國家不一樣，那這裡面會不會涉及修法的問題？還有來源國本國法律規定的問題，這都是要注意的，因為MOU是一個基本原則的備忘，不是說我們想要重啟談判就可以隨時重啟的事情，因為規範的是基本原則的問題。所以原則都沒有辦法堅持的話，就有我們的國格尊嚴的問題，這是相當嚴重的問題，所以希望勞動部可以謹慎處理。","而且日前許前部長失言引發的風波，勞動部跟外交部都有發新聞稿道歉，目前臺印雙方合作越來越緊密，莫迪總理的連任，賴總統也親自恭賀，也受到總理公開善意的回應。最後，我真的要好好提醒，我真的不希望一個MOU還有重啟談判的風險，所以一定要支持這個版本，我們今天就是要特別提醒，不要造成不同國有不同制的問題，萬一再引發爭議，真的是一發不可收拾，我們千萬千萬不要順了姑意逆了嫂意，順了印尼意逆了印度意，也不要順了國意逆了民意，謝謝大家。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來，我們請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.65534375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.700343750000002,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.69096875,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.09534375,"end":20.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.17534375,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.423468750000005,"end":80.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.32221875,"end":85.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.51971875000001,"end":103.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.69409375000001,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.24659375,"end":105.73596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.19159375000001,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.15346875,"end":107.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.44659375,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.49721875,"end":122.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.27346875,"end":128.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.75346875,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.49971875,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.64221875,"end":160.64721875},{"spea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所以我說部長你不知道啊 這個你可以回頭好好的去了解一下實際的狀況是什麼到底有沒有這種洗白的案例"},{"start":448.584,"end":475.931,"text":"我們再來瞭解看看好嗎?對!請你們好好的去瞭解我今天講我們就有所本好不好?好!那也做這樣的提醒啦所以這就是為什麼我要一再的就是說一開始我要提醒就是說國民平等等一下對不起我漏掉了就是說最後一點我要問的是說如果這個MOU退回之後勞動部有沒有需要跟印尼重啟談判MOU的內容?"},{"start":476.331,"end":505.84,"text":"那如果再重新簽署部長覺得說部長你會不會覺得人家跟我們會再重啟談判嗎應該蠻難的啦很難嘛所以這就是為什麼我一開始我要提醒就是說國民平等待遇原則下不能有不同國家的差別待遇那你們簽署的這個MOU有很多的原則是跟目前跟其他國家是不一樣那這裡面會不會有涉及修法的問題還有這個來源國本法本國法律的規定的問題這個都是要注意的"},{"start":506.28,"end":535.522,"text":"因為MOU它是一個基本原則的備忘不是說我們想要重啟談判就可以隨時重啟的事情因為規範的是基本原則的問題所以原則都沒有辦法堅持的話就有我們的這個國格尊嚴的問題這是相當嚴重的問題所以希望勞動部可以謹慎處理而且就是說日前我們的許前部長這個失言引發了風波那勞動部跟外交部都有發新聞稿道歉"},{"start":536.563,"end":565.421,"text":"目前台印雙方合作其實就是越來越緊密莫迪總理的連任賴總統也親自恭賀也受到這個總理的公開善意的回應所以最後真的要好好的提醒我真的不希望說一個MOU還有重啟談判的風險所以一定要支持這個版本那我們今天就是要特別提醒不要造成這個不同國有不同制的問題如果萬一再引發爭議真的是一發不可收拾"},{"start":565.981,"end":566.702,"text":"接下來我們請劉建國委員"}]}},{"id":"154319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd155598c7d012d0087b086792d041729577ffb1ee7a1289101c59471bd01b9acfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:00:13 - 12:15:24","影片長度":"00:15:11","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T12:00:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T12:15:24+08:00","duration":911,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時）主席、各位，大家午安，是不是請部長？"],["主席：好，請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，聽了你一個早上的答詢，對於大家關心的直聘問題，你第一個觀點是印度沒有所謂國對國直聘的模式，你是這樣說嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：他們確實是沒有這樣的東西。"],["林委員淑芬：那日本、韓國是什麼模式？你回答我。"],["何部長佩珊：日本跟韓國他們有直聘啦！"],["林委員淑芬：日本、韓國跟印度之間就是直聘模式！你不要再講印度沒有G to G的模式，有！日本跟韓國就是。然後，今天一早委員問的時候，你說直聘要看國家有沒有能力是吧？"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！要看我們自己，因為對於我們是全新的經驗，我們現在開始要投入來做……"],["林委員淑芬：不是看國家有沒有能力，而是看政府有沒有能力！然後，你們所持的理由還有國內仲介能力很強，你回答立委質詢時說我們的直聘要以國內直聘先行續聘，這個大家都知道，我們不再談這一塊。但你說國內的仲介能力很強，這就是我們一直跟你說的，關於仲介這一塊制度，我國過去面對4個國家都是全部放給仲介，而仲介的問題在哪裡大家都知道，就是涉及人口販運裡面的強迫勞動、高額的抵債勞務、訓練不足、國家退位，照護的專業不足。然後是買工費、仲介費，高額的抵債勞務就在這裡，這些都涉及人口販運和強迫勞動，所以在我們國家、社會各個領域，大家都在期待開放印度移工能不能有新的模式。你們一直告訴我們這次要採雙軌制，可能會有仲介加G to G的模式，但我們在這裡發現，如果勞動部都不準備、國家不願意介入，而且政府又不願意─不是不能喔！那麼名義上的雙軌實際上運作下來會只剩下單軌。我要跟你講，人家韓國引進了幾個國家的移工？我們臺灣全部引進幾個國家？臺灣有幾個國家的移工？"],["何部長佩珊：現在是四個國家嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：四加一嘛！還有印度嘛！對不對？那韓國引進幾個國家你知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：印度還沒開始，現在才要開始。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，我知道。那你知道韓國引進移工的國家有多少數量嗎？17個！"],["何部長佩珊：17個，是啊！"],["林委員淑芬：而我們現在只談一個印度，並要求你採G to G國對國的模式，只要求一個！但你連一個都不願意好好地做，國家不願意扛起這個責任，這不是涉及國家有沒有能力，而是政府無能啊！所以很多人都在這裡跟你陳情、也反映。","我們直接看韓國模式，它能夠運作得起來，都是國對國引進，而且數量這麼多，關鍵是他們有SPAS系統你知道吧？他們的SPAS系統。現在是不是AI時代、大數據時代、人工智慧管理的時代？部長，是不是？但你連這種系統都做不出來、也不願意做！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我沒有說不願意。"],["林委員淑芬：你又說臺灣是AI大國、資訊系統的政府、整個e化做得多好，別騙人了！你知道他們這個SPAS系統把所有移工相關部門串聯起來？而我們的國家、我們的政府就是從來都不願意串連起整個系統，無論是把引進許可、聘僱許可、還包括入出國業務許可統統整合在一起，而且公開、透明、上網，雇主可以上去看，移工也可以上去看，大家都可以使用這個系統，還包括簽證等等，這樣整合在一起很困難嗎？這個系統會困難嗎？部長，你回答看看。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我跟您報告……"],["林委員淑芬：韓國的SPAS系統對臺灣來講困不困難？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我現在就是在進行一項勞政友善化的計畫，要求勞發署現在開始檢討，把所有系統都整合在一起，然後減少雇主……"],["林委員淑芬：你們現在要做什麼系統？串聯起各部會的系統！"],["何部長佩珊：對，但這還要經過跨部會層級呢！我現在正在努力這一塊。委員，應該是……"],["林委員淑芬：你要努力多久？要多少時間給你們？"],["何部長佩珊：我希望年底前能夠看到這個系統出來。"],["林委員淑芬：跟韓國SPAS一樣的系統，可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我不能保證一定跟韓國一樣啊！"],["林委員淑芬：署長，你有沒有辦法？署長，你來講比較快。"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，我們現在其實分兩個方面，第一，關於跟印度之間的直聘系統，我們現在正在參考韓國的SPAS系統。基本上，我們就是會按照委員所提到的，把跨部門資訊串接起來，這個目前……"],["林委員淑芬：韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的欸！從一開始開放移工就做這種系統、做這種制度、做這種管理，而我們已經幾十年了，我們需要什麼、哪裡需要整合，怎麼整合，整個介面要怎麼管理，我們還會不知道嗎？是沒有心，而不是沒有能力。政府退位，不願意管。部長，你剛才講到仲介能力很好。署長，我今天講SPAS系統年底以前做不做得出來？"],["何部長佩珊：我們來努力。"],["林委員淑芬：好。第二個，你說臺灣的仲介服務很好，能力很強，你知道你們的仲介評鑑為合格的優良仲介比例大概有多高嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：百分之三十幾。"],["林委員淑芬：你們去年11月發布的新聞稿，A級的有64.5%，B級的有30%，所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良仲介。你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法，三年免出境一天，仲介沒辦法再跨國收取不當的仲介費，沒辦法再剝削這些移工，他們轉而在臺灣境內直接要付買工費，而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付，大家都要付，除非那10%的直聘、續聘。部長，你知道買工費的行情是多少錢嗎？一個移工要繼續在臺灣續聘，要付多少買工費？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，當然仲介一定有良莠……它一定有不好的部分。"],["林委員淑芬：這是違法的喔！這不是良莠喔！每一家都有去抽喔！買工費每個都有的喔！每個都有，每家仲介都違法在收，買工費在臺灣發生，要付多少錢？"],["何部長佩珊：買工費在我們這邊是非法的。"],["林委員淑芬：本來就違法的啊！"],["何部長佩珊：對呀！"],["林委員淑芬：你們從以前到現在一年取締多少件？我問你非法的，現在七十幾萬，每個人續聘的時候都要付，你才裁罰幾件？八件。我跟你講這代表什麼？你說仲介能力很好，仲介服務很好，他們幹這種違法的勾當，你們的評鑑還是94%，都是合格的、優良的，而幹非法的事都還是A級的、B級的。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可以跟你報告，有1,775家仲介，連續兩年評鑑A級的只有478家。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，這478家有沒有收買工費？你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎？我告訴你，我保證絕對有收買工費。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你可以跟我檢舉，好嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：你不要講檢舉這種事情，你不負責任，你們政府不願意管，退位、放任，然後你叫立委跟你檢舉，現在沒有政府了？現在是怎麼樣？政府這麼好做？叫立委來檢舉，我要你政府幹嘛？這樣子當政府，這麼簡單啊？","那我再請教你，現在RBA的移工就業零付費原則，雇主自己去負擔買工費，很多大企業都這樣子了，否則整個RBA，整個國際形象就壞掉了，你這個要先行。你們5月2日開會，也有委員在問，你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則？要不要從這裡開始試辦起？一千個人……零付費原則有沒有可能試辦？國對國引進也不可能，一個印度試辦一千人的規模，你就沒辦法做出來，SPAS系統要到年底，然後就業零付費都雇主自己去負擔，你也要表示一下，你有沒有辦法啊？我們都一直在講說可能涉及到……"],["何部長佩珊：這只能盡量努力啦！"],["林委員淑芬：高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動，所以過去政府一直都退位，不願意管，然後就全部交給仲介，然後在這裡，今天不會要求你這個試辦計畫國對國，不管你是雙軌還是單軌，到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來，就會變成仲介一軌，所以你的國對國模式，你的SPAS很重要，然後你的「G to G」要怎麼運作，也很重要。人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力公團，你知道的。"],["何部長佩珊：我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：對不對？公團要做什麼？這個是行政法人吧？"],["何部長佩珊：對，它是行政法人。"],["林委員淑芬：行政法人代表國家公權力。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊，它是國家介入的。"],["林委員淑芬：他們扛起什麼責任？韓國的國家扛起了負責選工，負起技能訓練，負起居留服務等，然後國家還可以受理雇主委託，代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約，這就是國家，而我們的國家做什麼？我們的國家做什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我也很期待能這樣……"],["林委員淑芬：對，所以你要這裡開始試驗……"],["何部長佩珊：可是這個真的是一個很大的工程。"],["林委員淑芬：但我要講你從印度……全立法院，包括衛環委員會的委員，到現在都沒有苛責你過去，也沒有要求過去那四個國家的模式。大家對你們的期待，只不過是從現在印度模式試辦計畫，一個國家一千個人開始，我們來run出這一套運作的模式，所以現在只是要求你，這一千個移工的引進，我們來找出一個新的模式，我們把過去強迫勞動的、高額抵債勞務的，統統都改善，國家扛起責任，不是只有仲介有責任。仲介引進來的，很多人沒有專業訓練，沒有技能訓練，沒有服務訓練，很多雇主也不滿意啊，這個服務也不專業啊！可是人家韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務，還可以幫忙簽訂勞動契約，再加上他們的SPAS系統，我們講這才像是一個國家。日本用什麼模式？日本國家做了什麼？部長，日本引進印度勞工，他們跟NSDC引進，執行也是採「G to G」的模式，而且大家都知道，日本也是用一個公法人在處理，日本是國家公法人在處理，他們根本沒有在討論仲介費，因為沒有這一種事情。","而我現在看到你們的開會會議紀錄，包括我們的外交部駐印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見，倘若初期採取國家政府直聘方式引進，他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口，願意承擔起來，並依照勞動部的需求，跟印方洽談。唯考量臺、印之間彼此能見度不足，國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重，所以他們提出建議，我講這是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任，它說建議初期可以透過採取直聘方式，引進優質印度移工，讓臺灣社會更加熟悉印度移工，這是外交部說的。外交部下一段說，未來再視市場需求，研議採取多元引進方式，以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障。外交部都直接建議初期國對國引進，外交部還有另外一點建議，我唸給你聽，到印度方面直聘的機制除了NSDC以外，還有一種是由印度政府指定，所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式，都不是，所以這個問題我們來看只有政府要不要做，有沒有要扛起責任，就只是這種態度而已，而不是不能，也沒有印度方面拒絕，沒有這一種事。","部長，我們MOU簽了，看起來好像是雙軌，但是我自己個人很怕最後會變成單軌，叫做仲介，跟以前一樣，那就落入了一些在野黨的前立委嘴巴講出來的，這個是不是有很大的利益已經在那裡先布局了，有人這樣說，但我覺得不一定是嘛，政府應該要採取魄力和行動，來證明國家願意扛起這個責任。"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢，待會我們可以再討論。","接下來我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.68846875,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.29909375,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.501593750000001,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.21034375,"end":25.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.558468750000003,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.02659375,"end":33.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.759718750000005,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.48284375,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.524093750000006,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.979093750000004,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.83534375000002,"end":150.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.19284375,"end":154.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.14159375,"end":157.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.49159375000002,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.68971875,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.75284375,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.27159375000002,"end":163.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.99284375000002,"end":168.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.73846875,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.80596875,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.97471875000002,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.02534375000002,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.22784375,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.24471875,"end":172.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.26159375,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.15159375000002,"end":199.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.66221875000002,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.28034375000001,"end":214.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.83284375000002,"end":216.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.54971875,"end":218.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.99659375000002,"end":222.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.86096875,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.21471875,"end":239.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.36659375000002,"end":230.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.63909375000003,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.52346875,"end":266.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.84159375,"end":273.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.96284375,"end":282.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.45159375000003,"end":280.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.72096875,"end":282.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.15971875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.08221875000004,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.82409375000003,"end":309.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.10596875000005,"end":304.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.94096875,"end":306.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.02909375,"end":312.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.50534375,"end":313.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.18034375,"end":316.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.38284375,"end":314.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.54659375,"end":333.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.87346875000003,"end":362.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.40034375000005,"end":367.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.75409375000004,"end":380.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.14409375,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.94971875000005,"end":386.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","sta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to G國對國的模式只要求你一個連一個都不願意好好的做不願意國家不願意扛起這個責任這個不是國家有沒有能力是政府無能啊所以在這裡我們很多的人都跟你陳情說包括都反映說我們只"},{"start":199.756,"end":226.445,"text":"接看韓國模式他能夠運作的起來而且都是國對國的引進而且數量這麼多關鍵是他們有個space的系統你知道吧space的系統他們space的系統現在是不是AI時代大數據時代人工智慧管理的時代保證是不是你們這種可以做的做不出來也不管你做"},{"start":228.237,"end":235.019,"text":"你要說台灣是AI大國整個資訊系統的政府整個醫化做得多好你知道嗎這個space系統把所有移工相關的部門串聯起來我們國家我們政府就是從來都不願意串聯起整個系統然後呢把不論是這個引進的這個許可併顧的許可"},{"start":258.207,"end":273.111,"text":"還有包括入出國業務的這個許可通通整合在一起而且要公開透明上網僱主可以上去看移工也可以上去看大家都可以使用這個系統包括簽證等等這樣整合在一起很困難嗎?這個系統會困難嗎?寶定你回答看看韓國的space系統對台灣來講困不困難?"},{"start":283.214,"end":294.061,"text":"委員我現在就是在請我現在正在進行一個勞政友善化的計劃我就是要求勞防署現在開始檢討把所有的系統都整合在一起然後減少部署你們現在什麼系統對不對串聯起各部會的系統"},{"start":298.004,"end":299.125,"text":"蘇長,你有沒有辦法?蘇長你來講快一點。"},{"start":318.558,"end":319.018,"text":"韓國是從沒有經驗開始做的勒"},{"start":335.511,"end":361.882,"text":"從一開始開放移工就做這種系統做這種制度做這種管理而我們已經幾十年了我們需要什麼哪裡需要整合怎麼整合整個界面要怎麼管理我們還會不知道嗎是沒有能力而不是喔不是是沒有心不是沒有能力啊政府退位不願意管那你們講部長你剛才講說仲介能力很好署長我現在講space系統年底以前做不做得出來"},{"start":363.459,"end":365.941,"text":"我們來努力好第二個你說台灣的仲介服務很好能力很強你知道你們的仲介評鑑啊評鑑為合格的優良的仲介比例大概有多高嗎"},{"start":383.191,"end":388.139,"text":"你們去年11月發布的新聞稿A級的64.5% B級的30%所以94%的仲介你們都評定是合格的優良的仲介"},{"start":398.855,"end":426.37,"text":"你知道2016年我們修了一個就業服務法三年免促進一天仲介沒辦法在跨國收取不當的仲介費沒辦法再剝削這些移工他們轉而在台灣境內台灣境內直接要付買工費而且大家都知道買工費是一定要付大家都要付除非你那10%的職聘續聘"},{"start":429.534,"end":432.575,"text":"不然你知道賣工費的行情是多少錢嗎?一個議員要繼續在台灣續聘,要付多少賣工費?當然仲介一定有良誘,他一定有不好的決定。這不是良誘喔,這每間每個都有起訴的喔,賣工費每個都有的喔。"},{"start":452.748,"end":477.174,"text":"每個都有,每家仲介都違法在說買工費在台灣發生,要付多少錢?買工費在我們這邊是非法的本來就違法的啊,您取締一年,你們從以前到現在取締多少件?我問你非法的,現在七十幾萬每個人都續聘的時候都要付呢?你才裁罰幾件?"},{"start":480.046,"end":482.147,"text":"這代表什麼?你說能力很好、仲介服務很好,他們幹這種違法的勾當,你們評鑑的94%都是合格的、優良的。"},{"start":494.226,"end":520.603,"text":"而幹非法的事都還是A級的B級的委員我可以跟您報告我有1775家仲介連續兩年憑藉A級只有478家好啦這478家有沒有收買工費你敢保證絕對沒有收買工費嗎我告訴你我保證絕對有收買工費委員你可以跟我檢舉好嗎你不要講檢舉這種事情你不負責任你們政府不願意管"},{"start":521.303,"end":526.409,"text":"然後退位、放任、然後你叫立委跟你檢舉,現在沒有政府啊你。現在是什麼?政府這麼好做,叫立委來給你檢舉,我要你政府幹嘛?"},{"start":533.084,"end":556.957,"text":"這樣子當政府這麼簡單啊那我再請教你現在RBA的移工零付費原則雇主自己去負擔買公費很多大企業都這樣子啦否則整個RBA整個國際形象就壞掉了那你這個要先行人家你們開會5月2號開會也有人也有委員在問啊"},{"start":558.098,"end":570.917,"text":"你們要不要做這個RBA的移工零付費原則?要不要從這裡開始示範起?幾千人示範零付費原則?有沒有可能示範?"},{"start":573.955,"end":589.686,"text":"國對國引進也不可能一個國家一個印度事辦一千人的規模你沒有辦法做出來space系統要跟你們對如果這樣也說零付費都顧著自己去負擔你也要標示一個人你有沒有辦法啊我們都一直在講說這時候只能盡量努力啦高額的抵債勞務、人口販運、強迫勞動"},{"start":600.307,"end":620.583,"text":"所以今天在這裡是政府過去一直都退位不願意管然後就全部交給仲介然後在這裡今天不會要求你這個示範計畫國對國不管你是雙軌還是單軌到最後如果沒有運轉出一個模式來就會變成仲介一軌"},{"start":621.724,"end":631.552,"text":"所以你的國對國模式你的space很重要然後你的G2G你要怎麼運作也很重要人家韓國成立了一個韓國產業人力公團你知道的?對不對?公團要做什麼這個是行政法人吧?"},{"start":640.92,"end":661.701,"text":"對,他是行政法人。行政法人代表國家公權力呢?他們扛起什麼責任?韓國的國家扛起了選工、負責選工、負起技能訓練、負起居留服務等。然後國家還幫僱主委託,可以受理僱主委託代向外籍勞工簽訂勞動契約。"},{"start":664.023,"end":673.428,"text":"這就是國家?我們的國家做什麼?我們的國家做什麼?委員我也很期待能這樣對,所以你要從這裡開始試驗但我要講說你從印度全立法院包括衛防委員會的委員到現在都沒有苛責你過去"},{"start":680.831,"end":680.871,"text":"主席"},{"start":697.888,"end":706.061,"text":"所以現在只是要求你這一千個移工的引進我們來找出一個新的模式我們把過去強迫勞動的高額抵債勞務的通通都給他改善掉國家扛起責任"},{"start":713.308,"end":739.376,"text":"不是只有仲介有責任。仲介引進來的很多人沒有專業訓練、沒有技能訓練、沒有服務訓練。很多雇主也不滿意啊。這個服務也不專業啊。可是人要韓國負責選工、技能訓練、居留服務。還可以幫你簽訂勞動契約。所以再加上他們space系統。我們還講說這才像是一個國家。日本。日本的模式他用什麼模式?日本的國家做了什麼?保定。"},{"start":743.103,"end":763.131,"text":"日本引進印度勞工他們跟NSDC引進這個執行也是採G2G的模式而且大家都知道日本也是一個公法人在處理日本是國家公法人在處理啊他們根本沒有在討論仲介費因為沒有這一種事情"},{"start":764.056,"end":782.678,"text":"而我現在看到你們的開會會議記錄包括我們的外交部都說外交部駐印度代表處說本處尊重國內單位意見倘若初期採取國家政府職聘的方式引進他們願意協助瞭解主責機構的窗口願意承擔起來"},{"start":783.799,"end":812.658,"text":"並依照勞動部的需求跟印方洽談為考量台印之間彼此能見度不足國內對印度的刻板印象嚴重所以他建議這是我講的是官方外交部願意扛起這個責任他說建議初期可以透過採取職聘方式引進優質印度移工讓台灣社會更加熟悉印度移工外交部說的"},{"start":813.679,"end":828.951,"text":"外交部下一段說:「未來再試市場需求研議採取多元引進方式以確保雇主跟勞工權益都受到保障。」外交部直接都建議"},{"start":830.242,"end":848.739,"text":"初期國對國引進外交部還有另外一點建議我念給你聽到印度方面執聘的機制除了NSTC以外還有一種是由印度政府指定所以並不是印度沒有國對國的模式都不是"},{"start":849.795,"end":865.905,"text":"所以這個問題我們看是只有政府要不要做有沒有要扛起責任就只是這種態度而已而不是不能也不是不能也沒有印度方面拒絕沒有這一種事所以在這裡我們真的是部長"},{"start":870.939,"end":875.902,"text":"今天在這裡大家對MOU簽了好看起來好像雙軌但是我自己個人很害怕最後變成單軌叫仲介跟以前一樣那就落入了有一些在野黨的前立委講的嘴巴講出來的這個是不是有很大的哪一種利益已經在那裡先布局了有人這樣說嘛但我覺得不一定是嘛"},{"start":899.938,"end":906.505,"text":"政府應該要採取破例案行動來證明國家願意扛起這個責任好 謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"154295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd11b974aab3251ba47b086792d041729577ffb1ee7a128910184ce2c86cf23990f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:48:38 - 11:52:37","影片長度":"00:03:59","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T11:48:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T11:52:37+08:00","duration":239,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":929,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時48分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好。我們一樣都是女性，我今天要問的是婦女生育跟就業是不是二選一、進而成為少子化元凶，好不好？我們大概算出來，現在男性跟女性的勞動參與率在29歲以前只差3.3%，30歲以後就跳升到11%，而且衛福部的調查結果是已婚女性高達22.7%會因為生育離職，40%不會再回到職場，所以，其實女性的勞動參與率一直沒有辦法提升。部長，您新任勞動部長，有什麼解方？有沒有讓女性重回職場的方法？"],["何部長佩珊：我上任以後特別關注這一塊，尤其是我知道婦女其實在50歲以後的勞參率是更低的，而且是墜崖式下降。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，解決她的問題才是真正可能可以讓少子化改善的方法。所以，第一個問題是現在的相關規定：性別平等工作法裡面規定，超過100人以上的事業單位要設托兒服務機構或提供托兒措施，至於真正的比例，您知道有多少？不到7成、大概7成。"],["何部長佩珊：確實。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，應該提供的企業中只有7成設置。有沒有辦法提升？有沒有辦法讓它提升？"],["何部長佩珊：我們有給企業獎勵。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是只有獎勵嘛！沒有處罰。如果有了法律規定卻又不處罰，只給獎勵，你認為提升的效率很高嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然就是應該更加大宣傳啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：你也該學一下金管會，金管會主委常常請他們來喝咖啡嘛！好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：你覺得我有能力請金管會主委喝咖啡？"],["黃委員珊珊：不是，我是說像金管會主委會找銀行業者喝咖啡，你也可以找這些大企業喝咖啡，或者去拜訪，好嗎？這是第一點。"],["何部長佩珊：可能是拜訪、宣傳啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：沒達到比例的甚至可以公告，公告誰達到百分之多少、誰沒有達到。方法很多，請部長想辦法。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分就是為什麼上班有假卻不敢請？雖然有家庭照顧假、有生理假，但目前為止，依照性別工作平等法都是以日為單位，公務員早就用小時來計算。"],["何部長佩珊：您是說家庭照顧假嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，還有生理假，不能請幾個小時，或者因為小孩去上個家長日，是不是可以在勞基法或性別工作平等法裡面增加規定以小時為單位？我覺得這可以給女性很多的幫助。"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，生理假現在可以以小時為單位喔！"],["黃委員珊珊：對，生理假已放寬，那家庭照顧假目前沒有，還有親職假，最重要的是我們這幾天開了記者會的，就是產假，我國現在還停留在二十年前的8周，但世界上的趨勢已經是14周了。請部長為女性爭取，至少開始往前走，增加產假，比照公務員目前的產假8周不含例假日，而且可以不連續，用這樣的方式，讓勞工也有機會在生育之後、哺乳期間有一些彈性，這也是我們希望勞動部的新部長能為勞工多說一點話的。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個部分我們也會提案，麻煩勞動部要往這個方向走，第一是怎麼減少女性的負擔；第二個是增加她生育的意願，好嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時52分）","繼續開會（11時59分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","林德福委員、林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.3303437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":3.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.818468750000001,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.302843750000001,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.539093750000003,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.79221875,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.36596875,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.41971875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.10721875,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.31784375,"end":30.102218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.28784375,"end":37.594718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.21909375,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.58909375,"end":49.221593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.643468750000004,"end":54.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.90409375,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.39721875,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.143468750000004,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.33659375,"end":69.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.15034375,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.82221875,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.50971875,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.37346875,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.92971875,"end":110.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":110.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.86596875000001,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.41346875,"end":121.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.18096875,"end":124.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.88534375,"end":122.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.37846875000001,"end":125.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.88471875,"end":125.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.98596875000001,"end":128.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.01971875000001,"end":126.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.21784375000001,"end":127.43721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.99409375000002,"end":138.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SP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這個就是我上任以後我特別關注這一塊因為尤其是我們我知道這個尤其婦女喔她其實在50歲以後那個勞產率是更最來勢的下降這樣解決她的問題才是真正讓小子化可能可以改善的方法所以第一個問題是我們現在目前相關的規定喔性別平等工作法裡面規定超過100人以上的事業單位要設所謂的"},{"start":88.462,"end":90.023,"text":"我們有給企業獎勵但是只有獎勵嘛因為沒有處罰"},{"start":110.917,"end":124.702,"text":"那如果我們法律規定在那邊又不處罰,只給獎勵,你認為提升的效率很高嗎?可是我們當然就是應該要更加大宣傳啦對,金管會的主委常常請他們來喝咖啡嘛"},{"start":126.078,"end":140.808,"text":"你覺得我有能力請今晚會主委喝咖啡?不是,我說像今晚會主委會找銀行喝咖啡你可以找一些大企業喝咖啡或去拜訪,好嗎?這是第一個可能去拜訪還比較宣傳啦對,拜訪大比例的甚至公告公告誰達到了百分之多少"},{"start":141.869,"end":160.508,"text":"誰沒有答到方法很多請部長想辦法第二個部分就是為什麼不好不想因為上班有假不敢請有家庭照顧假有所謂的生理假目前為止勞基法都是性別工作平等法都是以日為單位但是公務員早就用小時來計算"},{"start":162.029,"end":188.364,"text":"您說家庭照顧假嗎?是的。還有所謂的生理假。我不能請幾個小時。或者是我小孩去上個家長日。是不是可以在勞基法或者性別共同平衡法裡面增加以小時為單位。這個是我覺得可以給女性很多的幫助。周委員報告生理假現在可以以小時為單位喔?對。生理假放寬。我們希望那家庭照顧假目前沒有。好。輕職假。最重要的是我們這幾天開了記者會就是產假。"},{"start":189.705,"end":201.931,"text":"我們現在還是停留在20年前的8週世界上的趨勢已經是14週了部長為女性爭取至少開始往前走增加產價比照公務員"},{"start":204.019,"end":204.039,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":224.719,"end":224.839,"text":"謝謝委員、謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"154291","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154291","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd19f28291982f8e627b086792d041729577ffb1ee7a1289101ad81c9f73d0fe0115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:44:59 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有請部長"},{"start":11.206,"end":36.002,"text":"委員好部長好午安時間有限我想跟部長討論一下關於工會的事情我相信其實工會的政策一直都是勞動部很重要長期支持的政策我們今天要講的是球員工會的事情事實上在職棒球員工會或是職籃球員工會他們都有簽訂所謂的團體協約或者是目前正在跟協會討論相關的約定那這個是很重要的示範而且也感謝勞動部長期都有支持"},{"start":36.983,"end":62.364,"text":"可是呢目前有全國這麼多工會勞動部的支持畢竟有限那我們辦公室自己有提一個運產條例的修法提案等一下我投影片卡住那這個修法提案呢我們其實之前也有去跟經濟部討論過我們想要問勞動部是不是會支持目的事業主管機關針對相關產業工會去提供支持呢我們修訂的版本是在目前這個投影片上你所看到的我們增訂7支2條"},{"start":65.005,"end":86.715,"text":"這個寫法我們來直接看到下一頁好了,我只有兩分鐘。這邊我們想要看一下,我們另外一個問題是之前部長不知道你有沒有注意到,體育界其實長期都有不對等的權利關係。我相信部長您在立法院或者是行政院工作很久,上對象的壓迫問題其實除了在我們學校的體育班現場,"},{"start":87.415,"end":87.655,"text":"陳培瑜"},{"start":105.194,"end":105.254,"text":"委員﹚陳培瑜"},{"start":129.502,"end":132.726,"text":"布長,你覺得這件事情有沒有很誇張?我第一次聽到耶我來瞭解好嗎?是是是那布長謝謝你的善意喔就是你第一次聽到我也看到你很驚訝對不對?是"},{"start":144.462,"end":147.884,"text":"我看到這個公文我也很驚訝,怎麼會發生這樣的事情。那想要繼續拜託勞動部健全職場工作環境,有兩個比較具體的要求,也許部長比較陌生,我們辦公室很樂意再跟勞動部積極的討論。第一個,可不可以拜託勞動部在兩個月內由勞動部針對中華奧會還有國內各項體育單項協會,尤其包含特定體育團體,"},{"start":168.255,"end":172.518,"text":"在體育署的約聘僱對向國訓中心等等單位啟動專案勞檢確認勞動條件狀況跟有沒有執行職務遭受不法侵害的問題有沒有機會來討論"},{"start":180.086,"end":201.22,"text":"我會來研究看看再來評估把前述的對象跟職業還有業餘運動團隊包含具有薪資給付事實的單位納入年度勞動檢查方針並且在三個月內提出評估報告就好了好我來研究看看那我們辦公室是不是可以再跟勞動部積極的約會討論好沒問題沒問題謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":207.674,"end":207.694,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1cbad040734159fdfb086792d041729577ffb1ee7a1289101ff2541df1b7df3cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:38:37 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or no，就是這樣。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我想問審查的過程，今天國防及外交委員會之所以會聯席，可能也是因為這個原因。最後的結果要嘛就是存查，要嘛就是直接退回去，在退回去的狀況下，對外交這件事情會不會有所影響？我一定也會問外交部長，但是我也想問一下勞動部對於這件事情的看法，畢竟你們才是真正跟對方接觸的，那麼在外交上會不會有什麼影響呢？"],["何部長佩珊：我想，這次真的很難得，印度方非常地積極，如果這項MOU不幸沒有通過、被退回，對雙方關係當然會是傷害啊！"],["沈委員伯洋：所以，在這份報告交由立法委員審查的時候，我相信很多人會關心臺灣勞工的權益啦！對社會影響的評估啦！我覺得那都是正當的、那都是應該值得討論的……"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉，所以可能也必須請部長多多跟委員溝通。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在，我身為國防及外交委員會委員，當然不樂見嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：對，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：要怎麼達到平衡，我覺得是重要的，但可能也必須麻煩勞動部多多跟其他委員做相關說明。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來就是剛剛一直提到的直接聘僱可能性，你剛剛提到這絕對是好事，但是有困難。可不可以再告訴大家困難的點目前是在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：這是個全新的經驗，不是我們臺灣自己內部的那種直聘，如果依照外國的經驗來看，一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦！都是企業在海外，政府跟企業搭配，甚至到那邊駐點、設點、設人，然後有龐大的經費在背後支撐，在那邊直接進行選工。可是目前我們有沒有？我們還沒有在任何國家這樣做，所以是全新的，更何況印度又是新的來源國，所以說真的必須克服很多困難。我們不能在這邊擔保一定百分之百達成等等，可是我們一定盡最大的努力，往這個方向推動。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。剛剛其他委員也提到，畢竟這樣做可以跳過仲介等等，我覺得它絕對是一個好的方向。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：雖然MOU的審查、也就是我們前面講的是另一件事，但至少這件事情希望勞動部能夠極力促成，因為這樣對勞工的保障一定是比較好的。"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，這就是直接聘僱的部分。我知道今天接下來還要審查，委員也非常多，所以我大概就先發言到這邊就好。謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請黃仁委員、黃仁委員，黃仁委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.32971875,"end":7.287218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.03346875,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":24.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.32221875,"end":26.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.59221875,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.37284375,"end":61.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.18596875,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.337843750000005,"end":61.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.48971875,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.50659375,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.30346875000001,"end":66.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.41721875,"end":67.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.31159375,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.54346875,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.94846875,"end":69.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.80034375000001,"end":92.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.45846875000001,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.12846875000001,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.46096875,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.88159375000001,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.22721875,"end":96.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.10471875,"end":95.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.15096875,"end":98.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.87659375000001,"end":97.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.07471875,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.69909375,"end":198.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.98534375000001,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.39659375000002,"end":199.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.40909375,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.45971875,"end":201.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.51034375,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.82659375,"end":200.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.40034375000002,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.53221875000003,"end":225.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.44284375,"end":230.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.15096875,"end":233.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.73284375000003,"end":239.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.48721875,"end":284.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.85159375,"end":257.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.08721875000003,"end":261.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.52096875,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.09346875,"end":275.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.41721875,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.79659375,"end":287.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.12096875000003,"end":290.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.48346875000004,"end":290.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.77034375,"end":306.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.33096875,"end":294.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.12221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是不是部長是不是這樣的一個狀況是是yes or no就是這樣所以在這個審查的過程當中我想要因為我們今天國防外交之所以會聯席可能也是因為這個原因因為如果我們最後的結果就是要嘛就存查要嘛就直接退回去"},{"start":211.198,"end":236.65,"text":"那今天退回去的狀況之下在外交這件事情會不會有所影響我明天也會問外交部長但是我想問一下勞動部對於這件事情的看法因為畢竟你們才是真正去跟對方接觸的那在外交上面會不會有什麼影響呢我想這一次真的很難得就是印度方非常的積極我現在如果說這個MOU不幸沒有通過而被退回這當然對雙方關係會是個傷害啊"},{"start":239.92,"end":260.354,"text":"所以這就是變成說我們在這一份報告裡面讓其他立法委員在審查的時候因為我相信很多人會關心台灣勞工的權益啦然後呢以及我們對於社會的評估啦我覺得那都是正當的那都是應該值得討論的但是因為不一定每個人都對外交這件事情熟悉所以呢可能也必須也要請部長多多也是跟委員們溝通"},{"start":261.615,"end":287.609,"text":"他畢竟還是會有一些外交的衝擊在我們身為國防外交的委員我們當然不樂見嘛 對不對所以要怎麼打到一個平衡我覺得是重要的但是也是可能必須麻煩這個勞動部要多多跟其他委員來做相關的說明好那再來就是剛剛一直提到的這個直接聘僱的可能性因為剛剛有提到說這絕對是好事啦那但是說有困難可不可以再告訴大家一下那個困難的點目前是在哪裡"},{"start":289.172,"end":305.781,"text":"這是一個全新的經驗這不是我們現在台灣自己內部的那種職聘而是如果我們依照外國的經驗來看它一定是政府跟企業要合作的啦這都是企業在海外然後我們政府跟企業搭配然後這個大家去那邊甚至駐點"},{"start":307.302,"end":307.322,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":335.49,"end":335.51,"text":"好 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to G直接聘用的部分，我們大概盤點了各方意見。我覺得藍綠好像大部分都認同國與國直聘，而且我看部長好像也贊同這樣做，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：我當然贊成啊！"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！我也看了一下，從之前的許銘春部長，還有民進黨的林淑芬委員、民眾黨的陳昭姿委員，針對這部分、也就是直聘部分，大家都贊同。部長，那你覺得現在直聘的問題到底在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，是這樣的：態度上，我是一定贊成的，我也很希望推動，可是我也要跟您坦白說明，直聘推動一定有它的困難……我講的是我們要坦白面對直聘的困難、要去克服，我的態度是這樣的。我們不要誇口說一定做得到，否則，到時候做不到怎麼辦呢？對不對？對臺灣來講，這畢竟是一個全新的經驗，我們從來沒有做過。"],["涂委員權吉：所以印度那邊目前好像也沒有……"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！"],["涂委員權吉：那印度官方有意願配合嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們只能期待啦！可是印度初期一定也是以仲介為主啦！這就是他們的習慣跟文化嘛！"],["涂委員權吉：我有建議啦！因為我們也知道，現在要做一定有它的難度在，我的建議就是希望可以循序漸進實施啦！針對G to G直聘人數調整比例，如果達到1,000人，我建議配套做5%；1,000人到3,000人，我建議配套做10%；3,000人到5,000人，建議做15%；5,000人到1萬人，建議做20%；1萬人以上，建議做25%，然後也可以提供雇主直聘的誘因，提供雇主優先選工的權利。針對這一部分，我希望依序、漸進來做，後面實施的可能性就會比較大。不知道部長對這點有什麼看法？"],["何部長佩珊：可以，您的建議很好，我來參考、進行，好嗎？謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：那我也建議部長可以朝這方面進行。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員的質詢。","接下來請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.88284375,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.00471875,"end":6.915968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.94096875,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.22409375,"end":56.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.017843750000004,"end":60.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.96659375,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.143468750000004,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.74034375000001,"end":83.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.24159375,"end":83.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.55784375,"end":86.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.83596875,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.91971875,"end":107.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.96346875,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.48471875000001,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.23534375000001,"end":128.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.16721875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.73846875,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.59471875,"end":147.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.51846875,"end":150.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.52221875,"end":153.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.27284375000002,"end":154.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.92659375000002,"end":180.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.52596875,"end":193.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.46909375,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.02596875,"end":196.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.26596875,"end":202.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.25659375,"end":207.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.98596875,"end":221.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.34659375,"end":222.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.96659375000002,"end":227.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.26971875,"end":241.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.71471875,"end":250.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.89471875,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.93221875,"end":256.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.69534375,"end":266.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.35221875,"end":268.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.17034375000003,"end":271.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.32596875,"end":273.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.37221875,"end":289.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.41596875,"end":307.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.59471875,"end":308.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.70846875,"end":309.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.00784375,"end":311.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.40846875,"end":315.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.35721875,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.44346875,"end":333.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.95346875,"end":334.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.02096875,"end":338.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.85159375,"end":354.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.68221875,"end":342.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.46909375,"end":377.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.77784375000005,"end":391.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.40909375,"end":390.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.02471875000003,"end":391.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.59846875000005,"end":393.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.81784375,"end":396.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.28534375000004,"end":398.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.12909375000004,"end":401.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.31846875,"end":403.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.08159375,"end":415.81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說我們一定做得到那事實上到時候做不到怎麼辦呢對不對"},{"start":473.687,"end":490.351,"text":"因為這畢竟對台灣來講是一個全新的經驗所以印度那邊好像也沒有目前那他印度官方有意願配合嗎?我們只能期待啦可是印度他初期一定也是以中介為主啦"},{"start":491.372,"end":516.59,"text":"這是他們的習慣跟文化那我這邊有建議啦因為我們也知道說現在要做一定有它的一個難度在我這邊有一個建議就是希望可以循序漸進去實施啦針對如果我們G2G這個職聘人數調整的比例如果在1000人的時候我們建議配套來做5%1000到3000人我們建議配套來做10%"},{"start":517.791,"end":543.645,"text":"三千到五千人建議做15%然後五千到一萬建議做20%一萬人以上我們建議做25%然後也可以提供僱主職聘的誘因讓這僱主有能夠提供優先的選工的權利那針對這部分我們希望依序漸進來做這樣子我覺得後面實施的可能性就會比較大不過針對部長對這有什麼看法"},{"start":546.597,"end":546.918,"text":"涂權吉委員的資訊"}]}},{"id":"154278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1ccffd8a983e05943b086792d041729573176ac657cb8ac9c896b02f461641f995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:24:39 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11:16:55","影片長度":"00:09:51","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T11:07:04+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T11:16:55+08:00","duration":591,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（11時7分）謝謝主席。我想要先請外交部亞太司許副司長。"],["主席：好，請外交部副司長。"],["許副司長書智：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：副司長，我先請教你，我看臺印MOU第十三條有特別提到「本瞭解備忘錄得修正或修改」，所以我要請教你，我們跟其他國家所締結的MOU是可以修改的嗎？內容可以修改嗎？如果經由我們國內公民團體的意見跟立法院討論之後，覺得有一些內容應該修正，請問按照外交慣例，MOU是不是可以提出修改，特別是我看到這一份MOU第十三條有提到得修正或修改的文字？"],["許副司長書智：報告委員，這個案子因為是界定為協定，主政單位也依照條約締結法第七條及第十二條的規定來進行。依照條約締結法規定，協定案都是送立法院查照，但是因為大院把它改為審議案，就查照案改成審議案，當然這之前也有前例，但如果查照改成審議，然後又修正，這個情況是沒有前例可循，我們外交部的立場大概是這樣。"],["王委員育敏：好，那為什麼條約要放第十三條，就是得修正或修改？如果是這樣的話，當時不就應該連放都不要放，因為等於是沒有修正空間啊！"],["許副司長書智：報告委員，那個MOU裡面第十三條規定可以修正的這個條文……"],["王委員育敏：所以原則上它本來就可以？"],["許副司長書智：但是我現在指的是這個協定案在我國依照……"],["王委員育敏：目前沒有前例？"],["許副司長書智：就是依照我國條約締結法，我們沒有送查照改審議，然後又修正的這種情況。"],["王委員育敏：瞭解，但是就它本身的內容跟精神是可以提出修正跟修改的，所以才會放第十三條，對不對？我這樣解讀應該沒有錯誤吧？因為它基本上就是MOU，只要……"],["許副司長書智：以條文來講，MOU上確實第十三條……"],["王委員育敏：好，我瞭解，你請回。接下來我請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我上午聽了非常多你回答委員的一些意見，基本上會覺得你好像不太想推動直聘方案，或者是說你對直聘方案根本就沒有信心，也沒有決心，因為你一再強調續聘比較有可能，直聘在你的口中所討論出來的是困難重重，是這樣子嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我會盡全力來推動。"],["王委員育敏：會盡全力來推動？"],["何部長佩珊：對，我會盡全力來推動，可是我要……"],["王委員育敏：但是你剛剛的回答，讓本席覺得你其實蠻沒有信心的。"],["何部長佩珊：不是沒有信心，可是我要承認這個問題不容易啦！真的推動起來有它的困難度……"],["王委員育敏：部長，我要提醒你，在你們今天送出來的報告裡面，你們的會議結論提到了多數意見認為應優先推動直接聘僱是不是？這是你們送出來的報告，你們開了兩次會議，多數意見認為應優先推動直接聘僱，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：其實多數意見是推動雙軌，而不是推動直聘。"],["王委員育敏：你們的報告不是這樣子寫。"],["何部長佩珊：那個報告我沒有……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有看？"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有看，我……"],["王委員育敏：你們要送來立法院的報告你沒有看？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，就是……"],["王委員育敏：我有解讀錯誤嗎？這個是你們送進來的報告啊！裡面寫得非常清楚，它說多數意見認為應優先推動直接聘僱，然後有移工團體認為一定就只有單軌的G to G，我這樣有解讀錯誤嗎？沒有吧！"],["何部長佩珊：就是……"],["王委員育敏：我要跟部長確認的是說，如果你自己都開了會議，大家認為應該優先推動直接聘僱，那我覺得勞動部就應該要全力以赴，因為這個是符合多數你們開會出來的結論。包括今天不分民進黨或國民黨的委員，每一個委員都在強調在這一次的臺印MOU，如果可以推動直接聘僱制度，這是大家的期待，連民進黨的委員也期待推動。但是針對這個部分，我又看到勞動部在這方面的決心或信心不足，那要怎麼做呢？我們做得成功嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我要跟您報告，就是我會盡全力來推動，這個就是我要去嘗試，然後要去處理。"],["王委員育敏：我剛剛會提出這樣的質疑，就是因為你提到了非常多的困難，你說我們跟韓國不一樣，然後又提到印度本身並沒有直聘的制度，所以你講了非常多的條件之後，那個結論好像要出來了，就是你其實並沒有把重點放在直聘，你覺得未來是續聘比較可行，直聘看起來還遙遙無期……"],["何部長佩珊：不是遙遙無期，而是說我們嘗試來開始推動。"],["王委員育敏：你剛剛自己一直在提雙軌制，那在比例上面呢？你說你預定第一階段一千名的印度勞工，透過直聘制度進來的要有多少？"],["何部長佩珊：大概也只能是一千名裡面的部分而已，一定是這樣啊，你一定要從更小規模去開始試做。"],["王委員育敏：你的目標是多少？有到一半嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這個我現在沒有辦法回答委員，可不可以讓我再評估一下？"],["王委員育敏：部長，我覺得你們都還沒有做足準備，就是MOU簽了，但是這些問題都沒有細想，今天已經排了這樣的質詢，我覺得你們其實應該要有備而來才對。我要提醒的是，現在大家並沒有反對我們再去開發更多新的來源國，但是現在大家關注的是臺灣過去引進外籍移工的制度，有很多已經被詬病，特別是透過人力仲介被剝削的這個部分。這就是為什麼針對這次的臺印合作，大家才會把期待放在既然你是重新去談判，臺印可以重新談判簽這樣的MOU，我們國內的民意應該就是你們最強而有力的後盾，你們可以把我們在臺灣所開過的會議，包括專家學者、移工團體以及各界跟立法院審議的這些意見跟聲音帶著去跟印度溝通，跟他們溝通說我們對於這次雙方開啟合作，對於直聘制度，大家認為是重中之重，而且是最優先。所以我們應該要好好來研議在直聘制度上面，印度方可能要配合什麼樣的事項，我們又應該做足什麼準備，如果說未來還有一年的時間，我們應該針對這些事情好好的研議跟討論，這樣事情才會有進展。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["王委員育敏：針對這個部分，我覺得部長你的決心跟你引領同仁去走的那個方向其實非常重要，坦白講，今天我還沒看出你的決心，針對這件事情，我希望你能夠感受到這樣的民意及立法院的意見。你剛剛一再強調我們是因為缺工，所以才跟印度合作，不是因為跟印度合作所以要把直聘作為最優先，但是坦白講，現在的民意跟立法院所表達出來的意見就是藉由這次臺印合作的機會，希望直聘制度可以成功，從這邊開始……"],["何部長佩珊：好，我來盡力好嗎？"],["王委員育敏：我希望你要全力以赴，好不好？拿出這樣的決心，這樣你下面的同仁才會往這個方向衝啊！如果你的回應方向是模稜兩可，或是像你剛剛還回答委員說是續聘優先，我覺得這樣大家衝的動力就沒有了。我們希望在立法院的實質討論是有意義的，其實我們是給了你未來要去跟印度溝通談判更強大的籌碼，讓它知道我們國內對這個直聘制度，我們是抱著非常大的希望。而且你可以跟印度講，過去它沒有，如果跟中華民國建立起這樣的新模式，這是一個示範，也可以給其他國家看。印度它也要進步，並不是都是靠人力仲介，他們的政府也應該開始學會去扛適當的責任。","針對這個部分，剛剛也有委員提到韓國的經驗，我這邊也找到同樣一份資料，我覺得韓國可以，為什麼我們不行？你剛剛有提到說我們要建立的資訊系統會是跟韓國很相似的，我覺得既然臺印MOU現在要展開合作了，的確就是可以從一個好的模式開始，好不好？這部分部長可不可以承諾？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["王委員育敏：我們希望臺印之間的合作，真的可以從這一次跟印方的合作，讓直聘制度開始落實，部長加油，勞動部加油！謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員，下一位請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":10.274093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.716593750000001,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.37846875,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.06596875,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.133468750000002,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.95596875,"end":26.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.098468750000002,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.941593750000003,"end":34.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.42221875,"end":44.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.73284375,"end":63.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.79721875,"end":76.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.71096875,"end":78.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.31409375,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.46409375,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.99534375,"end":95.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.81346875000001,"end":103.27221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.45784375000001,"end":104.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.53784375000001,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.02659375,"end":109.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.78596875000001,"end":121.32846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.54784375000001,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.89284375000001,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.00596875000002,"end":134.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.49096875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.76409375,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.04534375,"end":151.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.26034375,"end":156.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.51721875,"end":157.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.23409375,"end":159.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.30471875,"end":186.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.90471875,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.09409375,"end":190.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.22471875000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":194.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.53221875,"end":197.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.95409375,"end":195.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.97909375,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.72534375,"end":207.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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進來的要有多少"},{"start":358.527,"end":360.268,"text":"今天已經排了這樣的一個質詢我覺得你們其實應該要有備而來才對"},{"start":386.558,"end":404.979,"text":"所以我要提醒的是說現在大家沒有反對我們再去開發更多的新的來源國但是現在大家關注的是臺灣過去的引進的這些外籍移工制度有很多已經被詬病特別是透過人力仲介被剝削這個部分所以這個部分"},{"start":405.88,"end":416.686,"text":"為什麼這一次台印大家才會把期待放在既然你是重新去談判我們跟我們台印可以重新談判簽證MOU那我們國內的民意應該就是你們最強而有力的後盾你們可以把臺灣我們所開過的會議專家學者跟移工團體跟各界跟立法院審議的這些意見跟聲音帶著去跟印度溝通"},{"start":429.713,"end":447.784,"text":"那跟他們溝通說我們對於這一次雙方開啟合作對於執聘制度大家是重中之重而且是最優先所以我們應該要好好來研議在執聘制度上面印度方可能要配合什麼樣的事項我們又應該做出什麼準備雙方你如果說未來還有一年的時間我們應該針對這些事情好好的研議跟討論"},{"start":455.109,"end":483.727,"text":"這樣的事情才會有進展但是這個部分我是覺得部長你現在是部長你的決心跟你引領帶領同仁去走的那個方向其實非常的重要那今天坦白講我還沒看出你的決心那我希望你這件事情你應該要感受到這樣的民意還有立法院的意見你在這件事情你剛剛有一再強調說我們是因為缺工才跟印度不是因為跟印度合作要把這個職聘"},{"start":484.648,"end":484.828,"text":"﹚王育敏"},{"start":501.201,"end":506.026,"text":"是要全力以赴好不好 拿出這樣的一個決心 這樣你下面的同仁才會往這個方向衝啊 依然你的回應方向是模擬良可或是你剛剛還有回答委員說是續聘優先 我覺得那這樣大家衝的動力就沒有 我們希望這樣子立法院實質的討論他是有意義的 其實我們是給了你更強大的"},{"start":523.524,"end":546.244,"text":"未來要去跟印度溝通的一個談判的籌碼就讓他知道說我們國內對這個執行制度我們是抱著非常大希望而且你可以跟印度講啊過去他沒有如果跟台灣跟中華民國建立起這樣的一個新的模式也可以給其他國家這是一個示範也可以給其他國家看啊印度他也要進步啊他不是都是靠人力仲介他們政府也應該開始學會去扛"},{"start":548.526,"end":548.846,"text":"市長可不可以承諾"},{"start":576.363,"end":587.061,"text":"好,那我們希望台印的這個合作真的讓執聘制度從這一次跟印方的合作我們開始落實部長加油,勞動部加油,謝謝好,謝謝王育敏委員"}]}},{"id":"154268","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154268","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd13b017f473a326c8eb086792d041729573176ac657cb8ac9c5a269d54d767ffee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:57:57 - 11:06:59","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:57:57+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T11:06:59+08:00","duration":542,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時57分）請勞動部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長，第一次在這邊看到你。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員定宇：有些問題要請教你，我也代表國人要提出一些關心，我們希望能提供正確的訊息，不便回答的或者資訊不完整的，我們都可以讓你儘量補充啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員定宇：你知道現在全世界都在搶人力資源，人力資源我們細分其實可以分成白領的勞工、技術工、藍領的技術工，還有一般的，我們過去講三K啦！就是移工類的等等，這一次我們勞動部去跟印度簽這個MOU的原因是什麼？是你們自己想到的還是臺灣有產業界在遊說這個事情？還是有什麼樣的需求？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個當然就是要增加來源國的考量啦！過去我們就是一直依賴那4國，印尼、菲律賓……"],["王委員定宇：你覺得不能再依賴那4國了？"],["何部長佩珊：因為全球也在搶他們，也有很多……"],["王委員定宇：我們看到的是越南本身也慢慢有缺工的情形。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["王委員定宇：泰國也有類似的情形。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以原來那4國的經濟有起來，有的甚至是他們的移工去海外學技術，掌握了通路，回去自己開公司。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["王委員定宇：像我們南部在做皮球、做足球的公司，幾乎都被越南的取代掉了，原因在這裡，所以原來移工的量可能未來會有變數，可是國內的製造業或相關行業可能還是有需求，所以必須尋找新的來源，這個大概是原因。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["王委員定宇：我們當然跟全世界在搶、爭取這些人才來到臺灣，為臺灣貢獻，我們不用去歧視任何國家的人，我們應該感謝每一位移工為臺灣的付出，不管他在家裡照顧長輩，或者在烈日下做營建工程，其實他們都在這片土地上付出心力，不能去歧視他，但是我們還是要提醒勞動部，引進移工通常會面對的第一個問題是，會不會影響到臺灣本土勞工？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們自己的勞工會不會因為印度的MOU而受到影響？你們有沒有什麼預防的設計？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，臺印的這一個移工引進，絕對不會影響到國內的就業機會，其實這都是視國內產業不足的部分才去補充，我們一定優先以國內……"],["王委員定宇：我們以往是說國內企業徵才三次徵不到才，才能開缺，所以方法是跟過去的移工一樣？"],["何部長佩珊：當然是要一樣，我們不可能因為它而有什麼……"],["王委員定宇：那你們有沒有新的設計？"],["何部長佩珊：新的設計就是所謂的直聘，但那只是在流程上能夠更減少成本、減少剝削，只是服務方面的精進而已。"],["王委員定宇：意思就是過去我們臺灣針對原來四國的移工，都是採要經過介紹……"],["何部長佩珊：仲介。"],["王委員定宇：經過仲介，現在跟印度簽的MOU是除了經過仲介以外……"],["何部長佩珊：對，再增加一個直聘管道。"],["王委員定宇：雇主可以直接去招募？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["王委員定宇：它的好處在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：好處當然就是減少仲介中間操縱……"],["王委員定宇：避免剝削移工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對，是，可是這也要考慮對方的問題，因為印度本身沒有什麼直聘制度，他們也是透過仲介，所以當我方想要用直聘的時候，可能我們這邊成本會比較高，因為我們要到對方那裡設點。"],["王委員定宇：那你這樣講，變成這個方法是看得到吃不到！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們要嘗試把它……"],["王委員定宇：你懂意思嗎？因為印度社會的文化結構跟我們不太一樣，如果臺灣某個企業想要直聘，通常會直聘的人，是因為在印度有分公司或設有企業點，他要把那邊的人直接聘過來臺灣，所以他用直聘的，這樣他就知道要聘誰，只有這種會用到啦！"],["何部長佩珊：對啊！"],["王委員定宇：在這樣的情形下，我一定要提醒勞動部，還是要避免去排擠到臺灣本身的需求，你懂意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["王委員定宇：因為在南印度的幾個省，還有東印度，其實臺灣有很多公司在那邊設廠，直聘制度可以避免剝削，省得印度移工被人家剝好幾層皮，對臺灣雇主而言，他可以找到他想要的人，而不是用一用不適合，又要換人。因為印度本身沒有什麼直聘制度，比方說臺灣富士康在那邊有設工業區，他想要把那邊的人聘過來臺灣，他就可以用直聘；或者某某企業在印度有設廠區，他要把那邊好的技術工引進臺灣，樣態可能是發生在這裡，所以我要提醒勞動部，就這樣的樣態，一定要避免國內職缺因為這個樣態而被排擠，這個我要提醒勞動部。"],["何部長佩珊：對，這也是要小心的。"],["王委員定宇：因為這個直聘是企業內直聘……"],["何部長佩珊：是，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：他是跨國企業的企業內直聘，而跨國企業內的直聘就很有可能在職缺控管上會有一些眉角，勞動部這邊要注意。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，當然，委員，我要再次跟你強調，我們是雙軌，就是仲介跟直聘雙軌，目前……"],["王委員定宇：對啊！但如果是一個跨國企業，在企業體系內跨國都有點的時候，當然會選擇直聘，因為我當地的公司可以recruit，recruit之後再把它transfer到臺灣，這就是直聘了，但我不排斥這個方法，因為這樣企業可以用到合用的勞工，勞工的品質也會比較好，同時也經過他們那邊的職訓，不用在臺灣浪費訓練成本，這是有好處的，但唯一要避免的就是用這個方法排擠到國內的就業。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！我們會小心這個部分。"],["王委員定宇：勞動部要小心這一點。另外，我看這一次的這個MOU，很多決定事項是臺灣提出來的，印度方是願意，這個比較罕見。"],["何部長佩珊：是，這個就是非常罕見，而且我們非常感謝印方的積極跟對我們的友好。"],["王委員定宇：坦白講，印度大概是在中印邊界開始丟石頭以後，我想我們駐印使館也瞭解，丟完石頭後，他們的國安部門對於中國那邊不管是零部件進口或者人員，甚至是採購，都是有疑慮的，現在等於擴大到他們一般的經貿部門，過去比較親中的也開始設限了，回過頭來，變成臺灣跟他們就有一個合作基礎，這既是經濟又是外交，所以這一次我方可以決定要求什麼樣的人才和項目。"],["何部長佩珊：對，職類我們決定，名額也我們決定。"],["王委員定宇：職類、名額都是我們決定，所以……"],["何部長佩珊：還有直聘，其實對方原來不同意，但被我們加進去了，還有包括醫療，他們也願意負擔。"],["王委員定宇：印度會同意直聘，其實滿意外的，因為直聘對於當地跟他們的政治階層結合在一起的仲介業而言，反彈會很大，因為這樣他們就賺不到錢了。但其實對臺灣的生意人、臺灣的企業家，還有印度勞工，是有幫助的，但我還是要提醒，要避免排擠。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員提醒這個問題。"],["王委員定宇：我最後再請教一個問題，就是有關治安部分。我看到國人擔憂的是治安的部分，那我也藉由我們在立法院的委員會提醒國人，對任何族裔的人，都應該平等看待，不能有英文叫做stereotype，不能有那種僵化或者固定的歧視跟誤解，對國內族群如此，對國外也是。印度是全球唯二超過10億以上人口的國家，當然人口多事情就多，他們有他們的種姓制度，那是他們國家的內政，所以對於移工進入臺灣，有關治安部分，勞動部做了什麼努力？我問最後一個問題就好了。"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們現在已經跟移民署有對接合作，因為有關治安部分，我們要跟移民署一起控管。"],["王委員定宇：我們可以要求移工，比如無犯罪紀錄，或者有相關保證人等等……"],["何部長佩珊：是，有，當然一定。"],["王委員定宇：不能因為別的國家有發生刑事案件，我們就以為那個國家的人都是這樣的人，就好像如果外國看臺灣發生什麼刑事案件，就認為臺灣都是這樣的人，這樣也不好，但畢竟這是從另外一個國家來臺灣工作的人，有適應的問題、有文化的差異，文化的差異跟適應的問題，可能要透過輔導跟各方面來處理，這是勞動部的責任。就好像現有的四國移工，在臺灣其實也造成很大的就業市場，有人會安排住，有人當翻譯，但是對於進來的人的犯罪紀錄以及相關處理，可能勞動部初期要多用心一點，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["王委員定宇：好，以上。謝謝勞動部、謝謝主席。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席（涂委員權吉代）：謝謝王定宇委員。","下一位請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.92534375,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.79846875,"end":3.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.38034375,"end":5.734718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.257843750000001,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.92846875,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.36721875,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.51471875,"end":22.93034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":271.376,"text":"所以執聘這一類是避免剝削所以印度移工他省得被人家剝好幾層皮對台灣的雇主我可以找到我想要的而不是來用美化我又換嘛那最常發現就是因為印度本身沒有什麼中介沒有什麼執聘制度"},{"start":272.156,"end":293.552,"text":"所以常會發現是比如說台灣富士康在那邊有設一個工業區他就把那邊的想要聘過來他可以用職聘的或者某某企業在印度有設廠區他要把那邊的好的技術工引進來台灣可能會發生在這裡所以我這邊本期要提醒勞動部就這個樣態一定要避免國內的職缺"},{"start":295.413,"end":315.546,"text":"因為這個樣態被排擠。這個有做提醒。對,這裡是要小心的。因為他這個職聘是企業內職聘。是,沒錯。他是跨國企業的企業內職聘。而跨國企業內的職聘就很有可能那個職缺的控管會有一些沒槓。當然。勞動部這個要注意。當然。所以委員我要再次跟你強調我們是雙軌。"},{"start":317.031,"end":337.166,"text":"就是仲介跟職聘雙軌對啊但是我如果是一個跨國企業我企業內體系我跨國都有點的時候我當然選擇職聘啊因為我當地公司可以recruitrecruit了之後再把它transfer到台灣這就職聘了但我不排斥這個方法因為這個企業可以用到合用的"},{"start":338.063,"end":359.394,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":359.474,"end":375.357,"text":"那印度方是願意?是!這個比較罕見的。這個就是非常罕見的而且我們非常感謝印方的積極跟對我們的友好。因為印度坦白講以往印度大概是在中印邊界開始丟石頭以後開始丟石頭丟石頭然後丟完石頭呢他們的國安部門"},{"start":376.238,"end":402.167,"text":"我們駐印的使館也瞭解說他們的國安部門對於中國那邊的不管零部件的進口或者人的甚至於採購是有疑慮的現在等於擴大到他們的一般經貿部門過去比較親中的也開始設限了那回過頭來變台灣跟他就有一個合作的基礎所以這既是經濟又是外交所以我們這一次我方可以決定"},{"start":403.047,"end":431.53,"text":"要求什麼樣的人才嗎?對,職類我們決定,名額也是我們決定。還有職聘,對方其實原來不同意的,被我們加進去的。對,還有包括醫療他們也願意負擔。印度會同意職聘其實蠻意外的,因為職聘他們當地跟他們的政治階層結合在一起的仲介業反彈很大,因為這個他們就賺不到錢了。"},{"start":432.17,"end":449.592,"text":"那其實對臺灣的生意人臺灣的企業家跟印度勞工其實是有幫助的但我還是要提醒還是要避免排擠嘛那我最後要請教一個問題治安的部分其實我看到國人在擔憂的是治安的部分那我也藉由我們在立法院的委員會提醒國人"},{"start":451.332,"end":472.326,"text":"對任何族裔的人我們都應該平等看待不能有英文叫Stereotype不能有那種僵化的或者固定的一個歧視跟誤解對國內的族群如此對國外也是印度是全球唯二超過10億以上的國家當然他們有他們的種姓制度那個是他們國家的內政所以對於"},{"start":477.449,"end":496.687,"text":"移工的進入到臺灣有關治安的部分勞動部做什麼努力我問最後的問題就好了是我們現在已經跟移民署有對接在合作因為這個治安的部分我們要跟移民署一起控管這樣子所以我們可以要求移工比如說無犯罪紀錄啊是對有或者相關的保證等等對當然一定就是說"},{"start":498.035,"end":527.538,"text":"不能因為別的國家有發生刑事案件我們就以為那個國家的人都是這樣的人就好像如果外國看台灣發生什麼刑事案件就認為台灣都這樣的人我覺得這個不好但是畢竟這是從另外一個國家來台灣工作有適應的問題有文化的差異文化的差異跟適應的問題可能要透過輔導跟各方面要來做處理這是勞動部的責任就好像現有的四國移工在台灣其實也造成了很大的一個就業市場有人會去安排住啊有人當翻譯嘛"},{"start":527.978,"end":528.379,"text":"好,謝謝王定宇"}]}},{"id":"154267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1660ab8db646b4ce3b086792d041729573176ac657cb8ac9c62e983eb939d23355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:49:23 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10:42:47","影片長度":"00:08:10","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:34:37+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:42:47+08:00","duration":490,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":549,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時34分）謝謝主席，我們請何部長。"],["主席：好，請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天我們來看臺印MOU，我們在3、4月的時候也有在委員會特別討論過，我今天想要請教，因為我當時在委員會也有請教許部長，未來如果我們朝向直聘的話，勢必會增加所有同仁的業務量，也許直聘後你們可能也會把這個業務委外，變成委外經營，如果是這樣的狀況，那跟現在仲介服務有什麼不一樣？我想請問。"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，我剛剛有講到未來臺印MOU直聘必須是一個新的作法，我們也在嘗試，公部門未來是不是有辦法去承擔這樣的業務量，或是掌握產業之間的彼此合作，是否能夠取代仲介？事實上我說真的，這個必須有待檢視……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：所以您提到的問題也確實是問題，所以我們只能儘量，看看怎麼樣儘量做啦……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們現在要怎麼做？外界可能也很期待未來臺印能夠直聘，我相信部長你應該也知道……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們現在很多公部門的業務其實都是委外去經營、委外去承辦，像是勞動部也有很多業務委外，對不對？有一些行政工作也是委外啊！這樣子的話，未來這個直聘的工作是你們內部會自己去做，還是會委外？如果是委外，我覺得其實就跟現在仲介在經營是一樣的，我希望你能夠再具體的講一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是，關於這個直聘的模式，我還是要強調，我們今天推動臺印MOU是為了解決國內勞動力不足跟缺工的問題，倒不是為了推動直聘而去做臺印MOU，這我要坦白講，所以我一直強調是雙軌……"],["黃委員秀芳：對。"],["何部長佩珊：事實上要就印方那邊的現實情況來看，印度沒有直聘，而我們這邊要做直聘的話，我們有直聘的能力，但經驗說真的是有限，現在必須做全新的嘗試，所以那也只是小規模的試辦而已。"],["黃委員秀芳：那小規模是多小的規模？可不可以就你們現在的想法來說明，小規模是怎樣的小規模？"],["何部長佩珊：我想也許剛開始1,000人裡面可能百分之幾是用試辦的直聘試試看，看有沒有辦法做，因為還需要對方的配合，事實上當時在這個MOU談判時，印方是反對放這個條文的，我要坦白講，是我方一直堅持，因為他們也很感謝，為了這個MOU可以推動，他們也願意接受，可是我們真的要尊重對方，如果我們要引進對方的移工，還是必須看對方的狀況。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，印度移工最快是什麼時候？剛剛部長有特別提到是小規模試辦，那最快是什麼時候會試辦？"],["何部長佩珊：您是指印度移工進來嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：對。"],["何部長佩珊：最快也是1年以後的事情了。"],["黃委員秀芳：1年以後？"],["何部長佩珊：對，其實還蠻長的，而且……"],["黃委員秀芳：好，在這1年當中，如果未來有直聘，可能整個程序或者是人力的配置，我覺得你們應該在這1年內好好的去規劃。"],["何部長佩珊：是。如果今天這樣的MOU可以經大院通過，那麼我們就趕快來嘗試這個新的作法，看可以怎麼做，然後我們可以跟委員報告。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。另外，如果未來直聘的話，我上次在質詢的時候有特別提到，整個程序可能要更簡便，應該要讓民眾更方便，能夠直接在網路上面申請……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：整個表格可能要更簡便、更方便，我希望這方面你們可能也要去思考一下，要不然政府很多的申請書真的很繁瑣、很繁雜……"],["何部長佩珊：就整死人了……"],["黃委員秀芳：然後程序一關一關……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣的話，一般的雇主可能也會覺得直聘太麻煩……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：可能又會委託別人來辦理，如果要朝向直聘或者是有仲介這樣的雙軌，我覺得直聘應該要更方便的讓一般雇主來申請，整個程序要更簡便。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們現在先著重於改善我們國內自己的直聘問題……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：我現在在推動一個勞政友善化的計畫，我要求檢討所有移工申請流程到底有哪些繁瑣的地方，儘量能夠讓人民開始覺得方便了起來。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：比如說，申請一個移工為什麼要複雜到書表有幾百種？然後大家都看不懂，如果這點都沒有辦法克服的話，說真的要做G to G直聘是很困難的啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：所以我覺得我們應該先精進國內的直聘問題，對此先來改善，我現在正在努力這一塊。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我最近聽到很多人引進農業移工，有很多農場或者是養豬場，我最近碰到的是養豬場，他們自己的小小養豬場有聘一、兩個外籍移工，他們覺得這確實幫助非常大，因為缺工的問題造成很多3K工作沒人做，如果說有這樣子的移工進來，確實可以解決一些傳統產業沒人做的問題，所以我希望未來面對缺工問題時，我再次重申，如果要直聘的話，整個流程、整個程序、整個表格真的要非常的簡便，要不然就如同我剛剛講的，當他自己要聘農業移工時，如果非常的繁瑣，也許他還是會請別人來代辦。就像現在有很多事情覺得很麻煩，可能就請代書幫他辦，如果聘請移工太繁瑣的話，他還是會回到仲介那一邊啊！所以我在這邊要特別請部長針對這部分真的要好好思考一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：未來直聘的話，真的整個流程、整個程序不要太繁瑣，讓所有的人可以很簡便的在網路上面直接申請，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時42分）","繼續開會（10時49分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會，請大家就坐。","接下來我們請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.396593750000001,"end":43.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.361593750000004,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.89721875,"end":57.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.01346875,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.36659375,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.65346875,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.68721875,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.08096875000001,"end":85.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.65034375,"end":92.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.99534375,"end":93.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.38346875,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.61971875,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.38971875000001,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.58784375000002,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.30471875,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.45659375,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.56596875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.31221875,"end":159.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.34471875,"end":153.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.09034375000002,"end":160.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.63034375,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.32221875000002,"end":182.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.14409375000002,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.54909375,"end":167.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.32346875000002,"end":183.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.01909375000002,"end":188.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.50784375,"end":190.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.38096875000002,"end":190.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.39784375000002,"end":190.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.90409375000002,"end":190.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.93784375,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.47346875000002,"end":196.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.23659375000003,"end":197.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.50221875000003,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.70034375,"end":199.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.48846875,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.70784375000002,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.12534375,"end":206.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.35659375,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.07284375,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.33409375000002,"end":220.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.99534375000002,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.90221875,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.03284375,"end":243.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.37034375000002,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.11096875,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.29221875000002,"end":246.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.49409375000002,"end":250.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.60346875000002,"end":270.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.68346875,"end":256.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.03534375000004,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.33034375,"end":275.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.34221875000003,"end":282.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAK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我們請何部長好請何部長"},{"start":9.501,"end":35.953,"text":"委員好部長好部長針對今天我們來看這個台印MOU那我們在3、4月的時候也有在委員會也有特別討論過那我今天想要請教因為我當時在委員會的時候也有請教我們這個許部長就是說未來如果我們朝向就是這個執聘的話那勢必會增加我們所有這個"},{"start":37.674,"end":37.854,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":58.195,"end":82.27,"text":"是,就是委員我剛剛有講到未來這個產業MOU裡面這個紙片它必須是一個新的做法那我們也在嘗試是不是未來有辦法去承擔公部門去承擔這樣的業務量或是掌握跟產業之間的彼此的合作能夠取代仲介事實上我說真的這個必須有待檢視啦對,這您提的問題也確實是問題所以"},{"start":86.727,"end":87.328,"text":"我相信部長你應該也知道齁"},{"start":105.103,"end":133.479,"text":"如果是這樣的話因為我們現在很多公部門的業務其實都是委外委外去經營委外去承辦喔像我們勞動部也有很多的這個業務也是委外啊對不對就有一些行政工作也是委外啊那如果是這樣子的話你未來這個職聘的工作是你們自己內部會自己去做還是會委外那如果是委外的話其實就跟現在的這個仲介在經營"},{"start":134.46,"end":135.06,"text":"我一直強調是雙軌"},{"start":161.515,"end":183.385,"text":"對,事實上你要就印方那邊的現實的情況來看印度它沒有職聘啦我這邊要做職聘的話我這邊事實上我的職聘能力也有也經驗說真的也有限然後我現在必須全新的嘗試所以那也只是小規模的試辦而已啦那你小規模是多小的規模你可不可以"},{"start":184.105,"end":198.831,"text":"可以以你們現在的想法,小規模是怎樣的小規模?我想,也許你比如說我們剛開始1000人好了,裡面可能百分之幾是用這樣的那個職聘試試看嘛。"},{"start":203.454,"end":205.296,"text":"他們也很感謝,為了在MOU可以推動,他們也願意接受這樣子。"},{"start":223.374,"end":242.454,"text":"可是我們真的要尊重對方,如果我們要引進對方的移工的話,我還是必須看對方的狀況這樣子。那最快就是說印度移工最快是什麼時候?剛剛部長有特別提到就是說小規模試辦,那最快是什麼時候會試辦?"},{"start":244.436,"end":269.156,"text":"您是指這個印度移工的進來嗎?那最快也是一年以後的事情了。一年以後,對。對,其實還蠻長的。好,那在這一年當中,應該你們要把該,如果說未來有職聘的話,可能這個整個程序,或者是人力怎麼配置,我覺得應該在這一年內你們應該要好好的去規劃。是,對。"},{"start":271.438,"end":273.999,"text":"我上次在質詢的時候我有特別提到就是說整個程序可能是要更簡便"},{"start":291.286,"end":315.995,"text":"應該是要更方便民眾直接在網路上面申請那整個表格可能要更簡便然後更方便所以我也希望說你們這方面可能也要去思考一下要不然其實政府很多的這個要申請書啊什麼可能就是真的很繁瑣很繁雜然後那個程序一關一關我覺得如果是這樣的話如果"},{"start":317.555,"end":319.136,"text":"我現在率先著重於改善我們自己國內的職聘的問題"},{"start":344.675,"end":358.671,"text":"我現在對推動一個勞政友善化的計畫我要求這邊必須檢討我們整個所有這個移工申請的流程裡面到底有哪些繁瑣的地方能夠盡量能夠讓人民覺得說開始方便起來"},{"start":359.292,"end":359.332,"text":"是。是。"},{"start":383.692,"end":397.382,"text":"所以我有希望就是說因為我最近就聽到很多這個我們現在有那個農業就是已經農業移工嘛有很多農場或者是這個養豬場我最近是碰到這個養豬場"},{"start":399.103,"end":423.052,"text":"他們是說他們自己小小的一個養豬場可是他們就有聘一兩個這個外籍移工那他們覺得說這個確實是幫助他們非常的大因為這個缺工的問題造成很多這個3K的這個工作沒人做那如果說有這樣子的移工進來的話確實可以解決一些這個"},{"start":424.532,"end":425.793,"text":"國際社會福利及印度協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄"},{"start":446.61,"end":468.679,"text":"如果說非常的繁瑣他還是會請別人來代辦就像我們現在有很多事情覺得說很麻煩他可能就請了一個代書幫他辦那如果說這個我們太繁瑣的話要聘請移工太繁瑣的話他還是會回到仲介那一邊所以我在這邊要特地"},{"start":469.199,"end":470.62,"text":"黃秀芳委員的質詢我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}},{"id":"154235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1934dde6f1ed83ba5b086792d04172957ee23585586e40b3aba0e2b9540d275255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:24:18 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10:34:31","影片長度":"00:10:13","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:24:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:34:31+08:00","duration":613,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時24分）請何部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。我們今天在討論臺灣跟印度簽了關於勞務移工的MOU，當然應該是基於臺灣跟印度兩國這幾年越來越……我想包括互相對待的友善及信任的增加所簽署的，但確實這段時間這個MOU引起了社會很多的討論，我認為其中一個很大的原因是，雖然我們兩國的政府有頻繁的互動，但整體臺灣社會其實對於印度真的不是非常熟悉，所以容易會有很多的投射或者是誤會。這次引進印度，各界的聲音我想確實非常多，但我自己認為，這恐怕已經不只是印度移工的問題，而是我們臺灣社會在引進外籍勞工的這條路上，其實跟過去真的已經不一樣了，我認為已經到另一個階段，也就是社會各界都希望政府能夠在這個引進外籍勞工的過程裡面，恐怕必須要承擔起更多基礎設施的建立，也包括承擔起更多的責任。","這次引發這麼多討論，有一個很根本的原因，我認為就是過去政府對移工引進責任的承擔真的太少了，所以大部分的壓力都落在雇主身上，尤其是弱勢的雇主，如果沒有辦法承擔的話，他就把承擔的責任希望轉移到仲介身上，尤其是管理的責任到仲介身上，那如果仲介沒有處理好，或者是想要壓低成本，各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象。這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感，包括出現一些歧視，或者是一些既定觀感，我覺得一個原因在這個地方。所以某部分，在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構，但源頭，我不知道部長同不同意，確實我們在聘僱移工過程，尤其引進移工過程裡面，過去政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的。"],["何部長佩珊：有檢討的空間啦！"],["洪委員申翰：好，部長，我其實知道這一次在我們簽訂的MOU的第八條裡面，是關於直接聘僱的部分。條文的內容，當然包括現有招募制度、雙方同意推動「直接聘僱計畫」等等，這是第一次把直聘的部分寫進條文裡，但就我所知，過去其實臺灣尤其是勞發署，曾經也推動過相關一些直聘計畫。我想問，這次印度移工的直聘，跟過去的直聘，不一樣的地方在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你也知道現在我們的直聘其實效能並不是很好啦！"],["洪委員申翰：不彰。"],["何部長佩珊：國內目前，對。當然也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["何部長佩珊：在國內直聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前，也就是說這次臺印MOU裡面的這個直聘，它必須是一個全新的嘗試啦！它的直聘不是我們傳統你現在看到國內的這種直聘方式，它要有創新的作法。"],["洪委員申翰：我會覺得國內現在的直聘，真的不太像是一個功能完整的直聘。"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["洪委員申翰：對，但是不同在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：那個不同在於我們有沒有能力，未來這個要評估的，比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣，到對方來源國去設點、直接去選工，然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業、跟政府，大家密切合作，然後一起來進行這樣子。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我當然認為……"],["何部長佩珊：這是要評估的。"],["洪委員申翰：其實每一個國家可能都有情境上的不同啦！"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["洪委員申翰：所以你很難完全把另外一個國家的經驗完全抄襲，可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的。就像部長剛才講到的韓國，其實我們如果對韓國的直聘進行一些分析，把韓國直聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候，我們大概發現幾件事情，臺灣跟韓國政府目前在規劃上面我們大概少了兩件事情。第一個事情，就是我表格裡面提到的，它有一個所謂的僱用許可制專用資訊系統，一般來說叫做SPAS，下面一個就是透過SPAS去做選工，這反而是現在韓國直聘系統跟過去臺灣規劃差別比較大的地方。","我們現在先做這樣子的分析，我們看到勞發署在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統，我想問這是不是韓國政府的這個SPAS？我想先問這件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：你說我們現在規劃的……"],["洪委員申翰：對，我看到你們報告裡面有寫「直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統」，你們有寫你們要規劃做這件事情。"],["何部長佩珊：嘗試啦！嘗試！"],["洪委員申翰：那是不是SPAS？"],["何部長佩珊：類似，對，是類似。"],["洪委員申翰：是參考是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：參考啦！"],["洪委員申翰：我之前也有跟蔡署長討論過這個事情，確實過去在引進泰國移工的時候，我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS，但當時其實並沒有成功，原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好。我們有很多政府基本的服務沒有提供，最後變成雇主又要回去找仲介，或者覺得仲介這軌比較有競爭力。我想要問部長，這一次假設我們設定目標需要做的話，就把這件事情做好、做成功，做成一個有競爭力直聘的這一軌，應該沒有問題吧？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們現在包括臺菲或是跟印尼，也有類似這樣子直聘MOU的要求。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，你這樣講我就擔心了，我們這次確實是希望跟過去4國，過去4國當然有一定發展的軌跡，可是這一次印度的MOU，這是一個新的機會，尤其是如果我們一開始要做小規模的試辦……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["洪委員申翰：所以在這小規模的試辦裡面，我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們要來創新跟處理。"],["洪委員申翰：所以我剛剛說，其實過去也有嘗試過直聘，可是它的功能不彰，我們也有嘗試過SPAS的系統，可是因為配套不足，我認為如果這次……包括勞動部的報告裡面，MOU第八條裡面就寫我們要把直聘給做好，我覺得我們就應該下定決心，把它做成一個有競爭力的直聘，而不是又再像過去一樣變成有點雞肋的狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，當然。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我自己是希望可不可以在兩個月內，把你們接下來如何能夠汲取過去直聘不太成功的經驗下改變的作法……"],["何部長佩珊：我們來做一個檢討好嗎？"],["洪委員申翰：把最重要改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們，我覺得這件事情不應該閉門造車，這事情是可以跟社會各界，包括移工團體，包括雇主團體，或者是怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的直聘，來增加政府在聘僱移工過程能夠承擔的責任，或者一般人家講「G to G」，我覺得參考其他國家經驗，這是一定必要的，重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來，而不要再重蹈過去的覆轍，部長，這沒有問題吧？"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["洪委員申翰：兩個月內可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：可以，可以。"],["洪委員申翰：好。部長，最後我想要提一個事情，我之前在對許部長的質詢裡面有提到，我們其實遇到一個陳情，有一個家庭的雇主，他家庭的看護工中風了，所以雇主一面要照顧爸爸，又要照顧這個中風的看護工，所以他就尋求仲介協助，結果仲介就跟他說你就趕快把這個中風移工送回國，就沒你的事了。但是這個雇主不願意昧著良心這樣做，所以他打1995找勞發署或地方的勞工局，但都沒有人能夠協助他，最後他跑來，這是他的陳情信，跑來找我們，才在各種的媒介之下去處理這些事情。","這個案例我當時就跟許部長說了，這凸顯一件事情是我們在臺灣的移工，並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援網絡，可以去協助他們得到各種他必要的後勤支援。所以這件事情就變成又要落入到雇主身上，當雇主沒能力承擔的時候，就會發生種種大家不樂見的狀況。我們在3月的時候提，當時許部長有跟我說兩個月的時間，會把移工的支援中心跟支援網絡做相關的規劃，可是兩個月到了，我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃。部長，當時蔡署長也在場，這部分部長覺得要多久的時間？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我正在要求勞發署進行一個勞政友善計畫，全面檢討所有相關的服務。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["何部長佩珊：這個建置移工就醫指南系統，是我們現在正在檢討要進行的。"],["洪委員申翰：就一個綜合性的支援計畫，設置支援網絡的中心，大概多久時間可以給我們相關的規劃？"],["何部長佩珊：三個月可以嗎？"],["洪委員申翰：上次你跟我說兩個月，兩個月已經到了呢？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，給我一點時間啦！"],["洪委員申翰：部長，再兩個月好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，開議前一定給您。"],["洪委員申翰：開議前，開議前我接受，開議前一定給，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，接下來我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.78471875,"end":10.493468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.387843750000002,"end":12.079718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.35784375,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.69096875,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.840343750000002,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.34221875,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.18534375,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.17909375,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.29596875,"end":78.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.07346875,"end":81.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.43596875,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.48471875,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.48034375,"end":103.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.74471875,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.96596875,"end":128.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.29346875000002,"end":146.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.92784375000002,"end":148.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.40846875,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.17534375,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.25096875,"end":158.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.72346875000002,"end":161.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.73971875,"end":180.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.32346875000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.65909375,"end":199.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.07159375,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.51034375,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.35784375,"end":203.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.53909375,"end":223.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.46034375000002,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.45971875,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.03346875000003,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.64909375000002,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.59346875000003,"end":253.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.56159375000001,"end":249.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.29971875,"end":268.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.32409375000003,"end":257.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.73159375,"end":278.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.97471875,"end":292.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.62659375000004,"end":303.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.21971875,"end":309.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.41284375000004,"end":323.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.98034375000003,"end":325.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.02221875000004,"end":334.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.77659375,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.38346875,"end":337.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.96971875,"end":338.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.94846875,"end":345.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.12034375,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.10721875,"end":352.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.08971875000003,"end":355.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.85284375000003,"end":360.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.68346875000003,"end":36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"text":"那如果仲介沒有處理好或者是想要壓低成本各種手段就可能在社會上會造成各種大家不樂見的亂象"},{"start":129.335,"end":153.937,"text":"那這也是為什麼後來社會對於整體移工的觀感會有一些包括出現的一些歧視或者是一些這樣既定觀感的我覺得一個原因在這個地方所以它某個部分它在這裡面其實是一個層層轉嫁的結構但源頭我不知道部長同不同意確實是我們在拼顧移工過程尤其引進移工過程裡面政府的把關跟承擔確實是不夠的過去"},{"start":156.306,"end":178.954,"text":"有檢討的空間啦好,不然我其實知道這一次在我們簽訂的MOU的第8條裡面是直接關於這個直接聘僱的部分那條文的內容當然包括說現有招募制度雙方同意推動直接聘僱計畫等等等這是當然第一次把這個職聘的部分寫進這個條文裡"},{"start":180.535,"end":191.764,"text":"但就我所知過去其實臺灣的尤其是老發署曾經也推動過相關的一些職聘的計劃那我想問這一次印度移工的職聘跟過去的職聘不一樣的地方在哪裡?"},{"start":193.655,"end":222.391,"text":"委員您也知道現在我們的職聘其實效能並不是很好啦國內目前對但也是大院委員一直關切的問題嘛那麼在國內的職聘的經驗還沒有很精進之前就是說這次台印的MOU裡面這個職聘它是一個必須是一個全新的嘗試啦它的職聘不是我們現在傳統我們看到的國內的這種職聘方式它要有創新的做法"},{"start":222.711,"end":228.441,"text":"我會覺得國內現在的職聘不太像真的是一個功能完整的職聘那我說不同在哪裡?"},{"start":229.707,"end":257.114,"text":"那個不同在於說我們有沒有能力未來這個要評估的就是比如我們有沒有辦法像韓國這樣到對方來源國去設點直接去選工然後在那裡就直接像韓國那樣跟企業跟政府大家密切合作然後也一起來進行這樣子這是要評估的其實每一個國家之間可能都有情境上的不同"},{"start":258.274,"end":278.368,"text":"所以你很難完全把另外一個國家經營完全抄襲可是我覺得參考跟分析是必要的比方說如果就像部長剛才講到的韓國其實我們大概如果對韓國的職聘進入一些分析把他在這個他韓國職聘裡面幾個重要的元素拆解出來的時候我們大概發現幾件事情"},{"start":279.088,"end":303.323,"text":"其實台灣跟目前韓國政府目前在規劃上面的我們大概少了兩件事情第一個事情就是我這個表格裡面提到的他有一個所謂的僱用許可之專用資訊系統一般來說叫做SPAS那下面一個就是透過SPAS去做選工這其實反而是現代韓國的執聘系統跟台灣過去的規劃裡面比較大差別的地方"},{"start":304.264,"end":323.42,"text":"那這當然我們現在先做這樣子的分析可是我們現在看到我們看到勞發署有提到在這次勞動部報告裡面有提到這個直接聘僱印度勞工資訊系統我想先請問這是不是就是韓國他們韓國政府他的這個SPS我想先問這件事情"},{"start":324.022,"end":324.442,"text":"我之前也有跟蔡組長討論過這個事情"},{"start":344.457,"end":366.283,"text":"在引進泰國移工的時候,我們有嘗試想要用過這個SPAS,但當時其實並沒有成功。當時沒有成功當然原因是因為有很多配套沒有處理好,所以我們有很多政府的基本的服務沒有提供。所以最後變得這樣不足就再回去找仲介,或者覺得仲介這個比較競爭力。所以我想要問,"},{"start":367.659,"end":369.681,"text":"市委員,我們現在包括台非或是印尼"},{"start":385.803,"end":405.989,"text":"這個也有類似這樣子執聘的MOU的那個要求這樣子部長你這樣講我就擔心了我們這一次確實是希望跟過去四國這過去四國當然有一定的這個發展的軌跡可是這一次的印度的MOU這是一個新的機會尤其是我們一開始要做小規模的示範"},{"start":406.929,"end":427.794,"text":"所以在這個小規模示範裡面我們可以比過去更沒有包袱的來去做一些嘗試所以我剛剛說我們其實過去也有嘗試過執聘可是就像它的功能不彰我們也有嘗試過這個SPS的系統可是因為配套不足我認為如果這一次我們包括勞動部的報告裡面MOU第8條裡面就寫說我們要把執聘給做好"},{"start":428.354,"end":428.794,"text":"我自己是希望可不可以在"},{"start":441.611,"end":461.11,"text":"兩月內可以把你們接下來如何能夠再汲取過去執聘不太成功的經驗下的改變的做法哪些最重要的改變的原則跟架構能夠提供給我們我覺得這件事情是這個我覺得不應該閉門造局我覺得這件事情是可以來跟社會各界"},{"start":461.65,"end":479.808,"text":"包括移工團體包括雇主團體或者是怎樣怎麼樣設計出一個好用而有競爭力的職聘來增加政府在聘雇移工過程裡面能夠承擔的責任或者一般人家講居土居我覺得參考其他國家經驗這是一定必要的但重點是我們要把這個經驗給磨出來"},{"start":481.369,"end":491.616,"text":"而不要再重蹈過去的腹瀉,部長這沒有問題吧?當然那兩個月內可以嗎?可以可以可以好,部長最後我想要提一個事情喔我其實之前在對許部長的質詢裡面我有提到"},{"start":493.391,"end":510.643,"text":"我們其實遇到一個陳情有一個家庭的僱主他說他家庭的看護工中風了所以這個僱主他一面要照顧他的爸爸又要照顧這位中國的看護工所以他就尋求仲介結果那個仲介呢就跟他說那你就趕快把這仲介移工送回國就沒你的事了"},{"start":511.784,"end":526.902,"text":"但這個僱主他不願意昧著良心這樣做所以他打1995去找勞發署或地方的勞動局但都沒有人能夠協助他最後他跑來這是他的陳情信跑來找我們才在各種的媒介之下來去處理這些事情那這個案例我當時就跟許部長"},{"start":527.743,"end":550.605,"text":"說了這凸顯一件事情是其實我們在臺灣的移工並沒有一個清楚的支援中心或一個支援的網絡可以去協助他們做出各種其實他可能必要的後勤的資源所以這些事情就變成又要落入到僱主的身上當僱主沒能力承擔的時候就會遇到種種大家不樂見的狀況會發生當時許部長有跟我說那時候我們在3月的時候提"},{"start":551.926,"end":565.813,"text":"說兩個月的時間會把這個資源移工的資源中心跟資源的網絡做相關的規劃可是兩個月到了我目前沒有看到這些相關的規劃部長這個當時蔡署長也是"},{"start":566.954,"end":567.074,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":594.099,"end":594.339,"text":"接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"154234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd126f21e0e2dd6ceb5b086792d04172957ee23585586e40b3a04d060652815dfb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:16:01 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10:24:12","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:16:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:24:12+08:00","duration":491,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（10時16分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，臺灣在1992年修法通過就服法開放外籍勞工之後，到目前為止我們只有4個移工來源國，如果比較起新加坡、日本、韓國，我們真的是少了很多，像新加坡有11國、日本有15國、韓國有17國，所以如果我們碰到某一個國家減少員額或者停止移工來臺的話，對臺灣的產業會造成很大的衝擊。因此要增加來源國的數量，我在想這是勢在必行的，再來也可以補足目前勞動力的缺口，解決來源國不足的問題。","剛剛我聽了很多委員提了很多問題其實都是大家共同關心的議題，譬如提到文化衝突、治安與女性權益、臺灣勞工權益等等，這些都是我們要特別去注意的。","印度是一個多種族、多宗教、多語言的國家。過去我在馬來西亞出生、長大，馬來西亞有三大族群，其中一個就是印度同胞。我從小也曾經跟他們一起長大，在我的印象當中，他們是一個非常聰明又友善的民族，所以如果一提到印度族群就提到治安與女性權益、什麼什麼之類的，我覺得這可能對他們全體來講是不公平的，我在想我們的行政單位就這部分可能要去釋疑。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["羅委員美玲：因為畢竟臺灣對印度族群是非常、非常地陌生。再來還有一點，就是我們真的要對這個族群有更多的瞭解，它不是單純就只有回教或是佛教之類的，他們的宗教真的、真的非常地複雜，所以他們進來之後，我們真的要做到對這個多元族群及文化的尊重，我想行政單位真是要做一點工作、下一點工夫，免得他們進來之後因為誤解而產生一些社會的衝突，我想這個部分是我們要避免的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["羅委員美玲：再來還有一點，剛剛很多委員都提到同樣的問題，譬如MOU裡面有提到什麼時候要試辦、我們有開放哪些產業、直接聘僱計畫等等，我在想剛剛部長都已經做了一些說明，可是好像有些部分真的還沒有準備好，這是我的感覺，部長，就您剛剛的說法，我覺得有些東西雖然簽了MOU，可是我的感覺是很多細節到目前為止都還沒有雛型出來。所以委員的問題是希望既然我們已經簽了MOU、要讓印度移工進來了，我們應該要做更多、更多的準備，我想這是一定要的。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["羅委員美玲：當然，我本來也準備了相同的問題，不過剛剛很多委員都已經提問了，所以我就把問題稍微做一些省略。","接下來我想要請教的是有關於昨天勞發署發了一則新聞，就是為了留住僑外生的人力，所以我們要開放從事旅宿業中階技術的工作，過去部長還沒上任之前，我就已經在跟你討論我們要把僑外生留下來，到底要做哪些開放。這幾個月其實我一直都有跟僑外生做一些對話，我們歸類出了幾大項可能需要勞動部及相關的國發會也好、僑委會也好、經濟部也好，一起來做橫向的溝通。我們既然要把人給留住，就不能只是口號，我們要怎麼做？這些問題要怎麼解決？對於僑外生的訴求，我們要怎麼樣回應？","我們把僑外生的訴求大概歸類為四大類，也就是詬病點。我們既然想把人留住，就勢必要在制度上面做一些開放，譬如目前我們限制從事15類專門技術性工作，僑外生只能做這15類。目前我看到昨天勞發署說可能會想要開放旅宿業，除了旅宿業之外，我們還有沒有考慮開放其他的行業？有沒有其他的構想？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，其實僑外生是非常優質的外國人才，我們正在盡一切方法把他們留下來，因為我們的勞動力真的缺乏。至於是不是有開放其他的可能性，其實其他部會也有提出要求……"],["羅委員美玲：例如呢？譬如有沒有其他的想法？"],["何部長佩珊：比如運輸、護佐。"],["羅委員美玲：運輸，還有什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：護佐，醫院裡面的護佐。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。"],["何部長佩珊：然後運輸類的客運司機。"],["羅委員美玲：這都是有在討論的，還有嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：類似的都已經有提案了。當然，我們是逐步來檢視。您提到讓中階技術人才進入旅宿業，其實這是觀光署的一個提案，國發這邊也同意了，我們就來配合。像僑外生願不願意從事旅宿業，也要尊重他們，那只是提供一個機會、多一個機會而已。"],["羅委員美玲：是我們開放。"],["何部長佩珊：對。然後僑外生的薪水有一定薪資程度以上，所以也不可能去拉低國人的薪資，他不是移工，他不是那種低層次的移工，所以他是人才，我們想辦法要把他留下來。"],["羅委員美玲：到底我們的評點制會不會整個被取消？會嗎？要拿掉整個評點制嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：不是取消，而是把他的……"],["羅委員美玲：門檻拿掉？"],["何部長佩珊：名額打開，然後……"],["羅委員美玲：現在名額沒有限制了，是不是？我們也是……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["羅委員美玲：還沒開放嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：還沒，這個要再修法。"],["羅委員美玲：還要修法？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["羅委員美玲：你們的時程呢？"],["何部長佩珊：名額打開，8月底前修辦法，然後年底前……"],["羅委員美玲：8月底前修辦法，然後企業資本的營業額有沒有限制？這部分會不會拿掉？"],["何部長佩珊：營業額這個限制我們也會檢討取消……"],["羅委員美玲：也會，在8月份的時候嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們也會檢討取消。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。我也看到勞發署說可能我們也會開放推動僑外生的個人工作許可證……"],["何部長佩珊：對，這要推動修法。"],["羅委員美玲：這個是同步在8月份的時候就會來修法，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：修法會慢一點，因為要考慮到立院院會的期程，我在年底前會提法案送到立院來。"],["羅委員美玲：所以年底前會提？"],["何部長佩珊：對，因為這才是一個長久地把僑外生這個人才留下來的方式。"],["羅委員美玲：像他們在申請工作許可的時候，有一些企業界的老闆會覺得流程非常地複雜，就不要用僑外生，這個部分呢？能夠把流程給簡化嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們一併來檢討這個問題，如果要修法的話，就要來檢視這個制度。"],["羅委員美玲：對。因為時間的關係，像第4點求學期間打工受限、畢業求職期間沒有辦法打工，這個一直是很大的訴求，所以我在想針對第4點是不是要來研議一下，讓他們畢業之後有兩年的覓職時間，是不是也可以讓他們有所謂的打工？我想這部分還滿重要的。"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["羅委員美玲：我們可以參考很多國家其實都會這樣，就是想留住人才，可是在他們還沒找到正職以前，我們是不是要來協助他們，讓他們可以適度地打工？這部分會開放嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我來跟國發商量、研究看看，因為這需要……"],["羅委員美玲：好，這部分也是一個很大的訴求。"],["何部長佩珊：其實這是一個跨部會平臺要討論的事情。"],["羅委員美玲：是，OK。以上，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪申翰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.06409375,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.56159375,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":111.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.89159375000001,"end":109.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.18221875,"end":223.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.52346875,"end":235.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.52159375000002,"end":294.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.63471875000005,"end":295.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.68534375,"end":303.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.96659375,"end":312.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.58659375,"end":305.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.72471875,"end":315.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.85971875,"end":315.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.33596875,"end":321.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.58471875000004,"end":317.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.82096875,"end":317.8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其他的想法?"},{"start":316.363,"end":316.503,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":346.589,"end":366.267,"text":"這並不是就是說像喬惠生願不願意從事旅宿業這也要尊重他們那只是提供一個機會多一個機會而已對然後呢這個喬惠生他的薪水一定他有一定薪資程度以上啦所以這也不可能說去拉低國人的薪資這樣子他不是移工啦"},{"start":366.767,"end":376.076,"text":"他不是我們那種低層次的移工嘛所以他是人才我們想辦法要把他留下來那到底我們評點是會不會整個被取消?會嗎?我們會拿掉這個評點是嗎?不是取消而是把他的門檻打開民俄沒有限制了現在是不是?我們也是還沒開放嗎?還沒還沒這個要再修法你們的時程呢?時程民俄打開8月底前修辦法"},{"start":391.87,"end":395.233,"text":"然後呢,年底前,對,營業額這個限制我們也會檢討取消嗎?我們也會檢討取消。對,對,對,最後要推動修法。"},{"start":413.393,"end":418.794,"text":"對,因為這才是一個長久的把喬外森這個人才留下來的工作許可的方式工作許可他們在申請的時候有些企業界的老闆他會覺得流程非常的複雜就覺得這麼複雜我就不要用喬外森這個部分呢"},{"start":442.681,"end":456.92,"text":"我們就是來檢討,我們一定來檢討這個問題,如果要修法的話就要來檢討這個制度因為時間的關係,像第4點求學期間打工受限,畢業求職期間沒有辦法打工這個是一直很大的一個訴求所以這部分的話我在想第4點"},{"start":457.941,"end":482.479,"text":"第4點是不是我們要來演繹一下就是說他們畢業之後有兩年的秘職時間我們是不是也可以讓他有所謂的打工我想這部分你還蠻重要我們在香港很多國家其實都會這樣比如說講留住人才可是在還沒有找到正職以前我們是不是要來協助他們讓他們可以適度的打工這部分會不開放嗎我來跟國發來商量研究看看因為這需要其實這是一個跨部會平台要討論的事情OK好以上謝謝謝謝"},{"start":487.4,"end":491.41,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請洪森翰委員支持"}]}},{"id":"154228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd132f90b1003370006b086792d04172957ee23585586e40b3a03e0b134b6616cf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:05:54 - 10:15:55","影片長度":"00:10:01","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:05:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:15:55+08:00","duration":601,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":378,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時6分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，大家都問很多，我先問三個問題，比較尖銳一點，你就不要講善意的謊言。第一個，政府要引進印度移工的理由是因為他們比較優秀，還是我們要做多國的補充人力？究竟是什麼原因？我們缺工的漏洞有多大，現在缺工到底多少人？"],["何部長佩珊：其實委員也很瞭解問題，這真的是為了增加來源國。至於缺工現在缺多少，按照主計總處的統計是24萬人，不過這是官方統計，當然實際數字我覺得必須要再更精確地檢視。"],["蘇委員清泉：近來只要是在職場上……剛剛有些委員在擔心是不是看護的問題，其實不是，現在都是職場上的勞工，包括工地、營建等，是不是都是這些？"],["何部長佩珊：您是說缺工嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：我是說我們要引進印度移工……"],["何部長佩珊：現在先以製造業為主，只能先以製造業為主。"],["蘇委員清泉：我在中研院有碰過印度的post Dr.，就是在中研院的博士後研究員，中研院裡面的印度籍研究員還不少，他們的薪資也不錯，我覺得他們也蠻敬業的，有的英文講得還不錯。根據主計總處的統計是缺工缺二十幾萬人，實際上可能比這還要多。"],["何部長佩珊：我相信委員的瞭解也許比我更深刻。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這是第一個問題。第二個問題，印度那麼大，三百七十幾萬平方公里的面積，裡面住了15億人口，外媒報導印度每15分鐘就發生一起性侵，這是很可怕的，全世界對印度的觀念和印象就是這樣，而且他們這個情況是蠻嚴重，你會不會擔心如果他們進來的人數多，會不會造成臺灣的治安變差？你如何因應外界的質疑？有辦法解決嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：第一個，當然印度他們本土的治安也許有他們的狀況，這部分我們就是客觀尊重對方，這是他們的問題，可是來到我們這裡，我們第一個一定確保……我們會先以跟我們國情接近的移工為主，比如他有英語能力，比如他有一定程度的技術能力，另外還包括他有良民證等等，這方面的檢查一定都是必備的，在他進來之後，還會有一定程度的規範跟講習，必須要讓他瞭解臺灣的法制是什麼樣子。其實我們跟移民署之間已經開始展開關於引進印度移工的一些規範作業……"],["蘇委員清泉：所以是挑比較文明的幾個省，他們不知是算省還是邦？你們要派員過去看看他們上課的情形，甚至不排除我們的人過去跟他們上課，談談臺灣的治安等等各方面，因為只有印度人在那邊講，也不知道他們在講什麼，我看……"],["何部長佩珊：對，一定要先這樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：MOU簽了，我們黨團這邊有附帶決議，要嘛就是退回，要嘛就是修正，這是我們的附帶決議，那……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我跟您報告，依照條約締結法第十條，如果被修正了，我們只能被退回，這個要拜託委員能夠支持。"],["蘇委員清泉：我把我們黨團的附帶決議唸給你聽：要求勞動部指定或設立專責機構，推動政府與政府直接聘僱，並擬定績效指標，保障移工勞動條件，推動移工直接聘任之成效。設立專責機構這應該做得到，你剛剛說要雙軌，我們黨團是希望政府對政府直接聘僱，所謂擬定績效指標就是KPI。"],["何部長佩珊：你是指附帶決議嘛！"],["蘇委員清泉：對。"],["何部長佩珊：附帶決議這是OK的，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：第三個問題，缺工是臺灣最大的問題，少子化是一個原因，但是臺灣本地勞工的薪資是偏低的，所以你要一直往上加，你不要讓人家覺得一直引進外國的移工，然後我們勞工的薪資也沒有明顯提升，這樣百姓跟我們的鄉親父老是不會支持的。"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：針對本國勞工今年度的基本薪資又要開始打架了，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員，下午我才要開第一次諮詢會，我跟委員報告，那個諮詢會就是當年您通過的最低工資法裡面的機制，它就是以前的工作小組，其實那只是一個溝通會議，它不會去決定調幅，也不會去決定任何事情，所以只是我跟委員的見面會而已，而且我也是新任的，然後裡面委員也有很多新聘的，所以我們大概是第一次先見見面、聊一聊這樣子。"],["蘇委員清泉：這一次印度移工要進來，他們要匯款回去，我們看一下地下匯兌。銀行匯兌金額最高7萬塊，手續費500塊，時間要二到三天；地下匯兌沒有上限，手續費相對便宜，時間不用一天，效率好，但是非法、風險高。我看屏東那邊有很多移工，他們要在上班時間去銀行匯兌有其困難，我們的銀行三點半就結束了，他們還在上班，星期六、星期天我們的銀行都休息，所以他們有很多人都用地下匯兌，但地下匯兌的危險性很高，曾經有越南移工被騙了60萬，這是他們辛辛苦苦賺來的錢。針對印度來的移工，你們要用什麼系統，你們跟金管會有沒有什麼想法？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，金管會其實在2021年就有制定外籍移工小額匯兌辦法，金管會現在有許可四家做小額匯兌，不過這不曉得能不能完全滿足移工的需求是一個問題，我們會再來檢視，然後進一步擴大推動合法且方便移工匯兌的機制。"],["蘇委員清泉：銀行的常上班時間沒辦法迎合他們的……"],["何部長佩珊：對，可是現在有手機，其實他們用app就可以轉了。"],["蘇委員清泉：app可以轉？"],["何部長佩珊：對，那四家都是app的，這應該算是新創吧！就是FinTech新創沙盒實驗的那一種業者，總共有四家，只是說可能推廣率不夠。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們再去瞭解一下好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：實際的情況要跟金管會好好地討論一下，因為現在碰到的情況就是這樣，然後他們都用地下匯兌，事實上現在就是這樣幹，所以……"],["何部長佩珊：那個量很大我知道。"],["蘇委員清泉：你表面上這樣講是沒有到位啦！"],["何部長佩珊：我瞭解，我們再來檢討。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後一個問題，我再用20秒就好了。請問他們進來的健檢費用誰負擔？然後印度人有沒有特殊的疾病？我是一個臨床醫師，像現在東南亞進來的寄生蟲什麼的，包括肺結核也蠻常碰到的，印度這邊有沒有什麼特殊的疾病？他的費用是誰出？因為如果是政府對政府直接聘僱的話，誰要付錢？是我們臺灣的雇主嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：健檢費嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：對。"],["何部長佩珊：健檢費是雙方合議，也是要雙方談，也是要談才能知道。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在是政府要自己搞，怎麼會是雙方合議？"],["何部長佩珊：就是要談。"],["蘇委員清泉：已經有雇主了，所以由這邊的雇主來付，還是你們編預算？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，就是要看雇主如果願意付，當然雇主來付最好，不過這個東西要經過工作層級會議來談。"],["蘇委員清泉：我覺得藉著這一次跟印度簽MOU非常地慎重，也把以前我們跟東南亞、印尼這些國家的部分好好地檢視一次。"],["何部長佩珊：對，有，我正在做這樣的工作。"],["蘇委員清泉：也好好地檢視一下，因為這樣的話，不要有太大的差別，而且有一些以前的缺失要好好地做，把它整個都補起來。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們會持續來盯你喔。"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請羅美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.64659375,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.214718750000003,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.044093750000002,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.12346875,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.84909375,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.152843750000002,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.81096875,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.10596875,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.73034375,"end":33.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.74721875,"end":34.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.42221875,"end":34.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.658468750000004,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.70909375,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.02971875,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.16471875,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.36284375,"end":38.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.87284375,"end":39.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.88971875,"end":40.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.97409375,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.83471875,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.59346875,"end":54.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.385343750000004,"end":56.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.37221875,"end":64.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.62846875000001,"end":70.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.60221875,"end":77.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.70659375000001,"end":80.65971875000001},{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謝謝主席好我請部長"},{"start":31.405,"end":56.181,"text":"政府要引進印度的移工的理由是因為他們比較優秀還是我們要做多國的補充人力是什麼原因?我們切工的漏洞我們切工現在到底多少人?"},{"start":57.481,"end":58.181,"text":"所以近來只要是在職場上"},{"start":81.067,"end":81.407,"text":"現在先以製造業為主"},{"start":101.903,"end":116.212,"text":"我在中研院有碰過印度的博士後的研究員在中研院我們中研院裡面的研究員還不少喔印度的喔那薪資也不錯啦我覺得他們也蠻敬業的我的蔣英文講的還不錯"},{"start":122.256,"end":129.389,"text":"好,所以主計處的總副是欠人,欠二十幾萬人啊,市政府可能比這個還要多啦"},{"start":131.405,"end":152.879,"text":"我相信委員的瞭解可能還比我 也許比我更深刻好 這個第一個問題那第二個問題外媒報導印度那麼大喔3700幾萬平方公里的印度的面積裡面有住了15億人口那外媒報導就是印度每15分鐘只有一個性侵"},{"start":154.648,"end":177.42,"text":"這個是很可怕的全世界對印度的觀念跟印象就是這樣而且他們是這個是蠻嚴重那你有沒有擔心他們進來如果人數多會不會造成台灣的治安會變差那你如何因應外界的質疑那有沒有辦法解決嗎"},{"start":178.812,"end":195.288,"text":"委員第一個印度他們當然本土的治安率也許有他們的狀況這我們就是客觀尊重對方這是他們對方的問題那可是當然來到我們這裡我們第一個一定確保我們"},{"start":196.529,"end":216.062,"text":"會以這個先跟我們國情接近的人為移工為主啦比如說他有英語能力好別他一定程度的技術能力等等的那麼這個其實還有包括他有良民證好等等這方面的檢查一定都必備的然後呢進來之後還會有一定程度的規範跟講習"},{"start":217.603,"end":238.453,"text":"然後必須要讓他瞭解臺灣的法制是什麼樣子對然後我們跟移民署之間其實也已經開始展開關於引進印度移工的一些所以會挑比較文明的幾個省他們有省他們也是算省嘛還是邦你們要派人過去看看"},{"start":239.674,"end":251.329,"text":"他們在上課的時候也要,甚至不排除我們的人過去跟他們上個課,台灣的治安啊台灣的那個,因為,只要印度人在那裡說,他們也不在那裡說什麼。是,對,一定要先這樣,對。"},{"start":256.596,"end":279.705,"text":"我們黨團這邊有互待修正是互待協議要嘛就是退回要嘛就是修正要嘛就是互待協議可是委員我跟您報告那個一條一地解法第十條如果被修正了我只能被退回耶這個要拜託拜託委員能夠支持我把我們黨團的那個念給你聽"},{"start":283.866,"end":292.689,"text":"要求勞動部指定或設立專責機構推動政府與政府直接聘僱並擬定績效指標保障移工勞動條件推動移工直接聘任之成效"},{"start":310.342,"end":333.588,"text":"你是指附帶決議嗎?附帶決議這是OK的,謝謝第三個問題缺工是台灣最大的問題少子化是一個原因但是台灣本地勞工的薪資是偏低的所以你要一直往上加你不要讓人家覺得一直引進外國的移工然後我們這邊"},{"start":335.248,"end":353.117,"text":"我們的勞工的薪資也沒有明顯的提升這樣百姓跟我們鄉親父老是不會支持的那你對本國勞工的今年度的基本薪資的又要開始打架了"},{"start":354.297,"end":374.967,"text":"謝謝委員。下午我才要開第一次諮詢會。我跟委員報告,那個諮詢會就是當年您通過的這個最低工資法裡面的一個機制。它就是以前的工作小組。其實那只是一個溝通會議。它不會去決定條幅,也不會去決定任何事情。所以只是我跟委員的見面會而已。而且我也是新的。"},{"start":375.647,"end":389.916,"text":"然後裡面委員也有很多新聘的所以我們大概先第一次見見面這樣子那這一次的印度要進來他們的匯款回去我們看一下地下匯隊"},{"start":392.622,"end":408.812,"text":"地下會對銀行會對金額最高7萬塊手續會500塊時間要2到3天地下會對沒有上線手續會相對便宜時間不用一天效率好但是非法風險高"},{"start":410.073,"end":428.978,"text":"我看我們屏東那邊很多漁工他們要在上班時間去銀行匯兌有他的困難我們的銀行三天半就結束了他們還要上班拜了禮拜我們的銀行都休困所以他們很多人都用地下匯兌那地下匯兌的"},{"start":431.109,"end":443.522,"text":"危險性是很高,曾經有越南的漁工被騙了60萬,所以你這辛辛苦苦的錢,印度來你要用什麼系統?你有沒有跟金管會要有什麼想法?"},{"start":444.87,"end":472.659,"text":"是各位報告金管會其實在2021年就有外籍移工小額會對辦法啦啊金管會現在有許可4家做小額會對啦不過當然這個可能不曉得能不能完全滿足移工是一個問題我們以後再來檢視然後進一步擴大合法推動這種有利方便移工嘿會對的這樣子的機制你今天人家出門時間沒辦法迎合他們的對可是現在有手機"},{"start":474.78,"end":501.711,"text":"對,他用APP就可以轉耶對,那4家都是APP的他算是應該是新創吧?Fintech的新創的沙盒實驗的那種業者有4家只是說可能也許推廣率是不是不夠?你再去瞭解一下好不好?實際的情況他跟金管會好好的討論討論因為現在碰到的就是這樣然後他們都用地下會隊"},{"start":502.791,"end":502.971,"text":"建檢會用誰負擔?"},{"start":519.684,"end":547.051,"text":"他們進來的健檢然後印度人他們有沒有受出的疾病我是一個臨床醫師像現在東南亞進來的寄生蟲什麼什麼飛機還蠻常碰到的那印度這邊有沒有什麼特殊的那他的費用是誰出因為如果是政府跟政府直接評估的話誰要付錢是我們台灣的部署嗎健檢費是雙方合意也是要雙方談"},{"start":548.311,"end":562.505,"text":"你現在是政府要自己搞,怎麼會跟雙方合議?是已經有僱主了,所以僱主這邊的,僱主來付,還是你們變預算?沒有,就是要看僱主,如果願意付,當然僱主來付吧,最好吧。"},{"start":564.145,"end":585.982,"text":"對,不過這個東西就是要經過工作層級會議。我覺得啦,藉著這一次跟印度的MOU非常的慎重,也把以前我們跟東南亞、印尼這些國家的業績好好地檢視一次。對,對,對,有,我正在做這樣的工作。因為這樣的話,不要有太大的差別,而且有一些以前的缺失。"},{"start":586.863,"end":587.003,"text":"羅美玲委員"}]}},{"id":"154227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd108f66af1f6bf81f3b086792d04172957ee23585586e40b3ae1f81c3d004d03cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:58:22 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10:05:46","影片長度":"00:07:24","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:58:22+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:05:46+08:00","duration":444,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時58分）主席好，我們請部長。"],["主席：好，請何部長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。一樣是印度移工的問題。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：勞動部113年人力需求調查結果，概括說，我們預估4月底比1月的人力需求增加5.3萬人，7月又比4月增加了6萬人，所以目前我們臺灣缺工人數是多少？"],["何部長佩珊：有分行業嗎？還是整體缺工？"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有，就是整體。"],["何部長佩珊：整體缺工是24萬左右，如果主計總處的估計是這樣的，我們是按主計總處的估計來看。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得那個數字好像不對啦！待會我們回去再查。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我剛剛看到是一百多萬。"],["何部長佩珊：應該沒有到這樣喔……"],["邱委員鎮軍：缺工人數當中可以用移工聘用來補的這個部分有多少？"],["何部長佩珊：您說以移工來補嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在移工已經有76萬人，您是指未來在缺工裡面有多少要用移工來補是嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["何部長佩珊：當然我們現在是儘量看產業的需求，還有包括家庭看護這邊的需求，儘量來滿足啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：那有多少是要用印度移工來補？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，其實印度移工還不在我們補足所謂缺工這樣的討論，因為印度移工是剛開始而已，它只是增加一個來源。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在是這樣，因為我們缺工的問題實在是非常嚴重。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛我也聽到部長在其他委員質詢的時候有提到，就是我們第一步從1,000人開始，我們也希望這個部分能夠儘快，來彌補我們國內人工不足的部分。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我剛剛也聽到部長講了很多問題，也有可能是印度勞工適應的問題等等，當然這些都是考慮的因素。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們也是要求，剛剛有提到臺灣自己本地的勞工，看看有沒有什麼可以轉職來補足這個部分？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，委員，我上任以後很重要的一個工作就是推動婦女跟中高齡就業，這個部分我們預估有56萬的勞動力可以開發出來，所以我們一定是優先處理這邊，移工還是一個補充。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有關我們臺灣勞工，其實也有很多家庭是需要工作，好讓他們維持生計。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛我聽到你們當初突襲式的簽約，我稱之為突襲式，你說這個叫善意的謊言……"],["何部長佩珊：不是謊言啦！不是謊言……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想這是出自什麼樣的善意？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我要更正喔，我不是說謊言。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那是善意的欺騙？"],["何部長佩珊：善意的隱瞞。因為外交工作真的很難，許部長當時很辛苦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我比較不懂，其實這個問題並不在我今天要問的問題裡面，我是剛剛在臺下聽到的，這個為什麼要有善意的……"],["何部長佩珊：隱瞞。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就講善意的隱瞞好了，為什麼要隱瞞呢？"],["何部長佩珊：我就說，因為外交工作真的很辛苦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：外交跟移工好像沒有很大的影響。"],["何部長佩珊：會喔！會喔！委員，我要跟您報告……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有誰會阻擋嗎？難道又是共產黨搞的？"],["何部長佩珊：有地緣政治的因素啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：他會管到我們移工嗎？又是習近平的問題？"],["何部長佩珊：因為很多來源國他們會考慮中國的態度，會喔！"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得應該是想太多，其實只要不牽扯政治，我想這個部分應該不會像你們想的有這麼多考量的因素。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，跟您報告，主要這都是政府對政府的談判，MOU是政府對政府。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請問你，當時我們有聽你們說到跟社會的對話，就是3月1號跟5月2號兩次，看起來都是跟我們的協會、公會在討論。"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在諮詢專家意見的時候，我們跟社會的溝通是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：這就是我們跟社會溝通的平臺，經過這個溝通其實也很有效地瞭解到社會的需求，跟委員報告，其實所有雇主團體或者是公協會，或者是產業界等等各方面，他們都認為一定要雙軌。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，現在移工是預計要採直聘跟仲介嘛！在直聘的部分我看到有很大的問題，因為申請的流程非常繁瑣，我看到我們要建置直聘印度勞工的資訊系統，這是要另外開發一個系統，還是在原來的直聘系統、直聘網頁裡面？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，所謂台印MOU裡面的直聘，它是一個新的制度。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以要重新開發嘛，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那要花多少錢？"],["何部長佩珊：這個恐怕都還要再估算，因為也得等MOU通過以後，我們再來嘗試。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們現在就是只有想法，目前只是想到這樣，還沒有開始準備實施就對了？"],["何部長佩珊：對，因為這個必須要往下走的時候，跟印度有工作層級會議的時候，我們還要考慮印方的配合度，印方其實對這個MOU非常的支持，而且非常積極，可是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道你們很積極，但我現在是擔心直聘的流程非常繁瑣。"],["何部長佩珊：沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我有看到你們在年底之前要辦三場，6月29日的高雄、7月13日的臺北和7月27日的苗栗。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到你們的網頁點閱次數非常少，到昨天為止，高雄場是634，臺北場是844，苗栗比較熱鬧一點，苗栗是1,313，我的意思是說現在……"],["何部長佩珊：委員的選區比較關心這件事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，很多人還不曉得啦！我希望這部分部裡面能夠對外再擴大宣傳，讓大家能多瞭解一下。"],["何部長佩珊：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：直聘是很好的，讓大家不要被仲介另外剝削掉了。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們也會挑選優質的仲介來做評選。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在講到優質仲介，你的客觀條件是什麼？所謂的優質仲介條件是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：這個一定是我們A級評鑑單位。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你的標準是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我們本來就有對仲介評鑑的既定標準，委員，我會後給你提供資料好嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，時間到了，我本來還有很多問題，但今天質詢的委員非常多，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員。","待黃秀芳委員質詢結束後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請蘇清泉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.7097187500000004,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.83159375,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.649718750000002,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.493468750000002,"end":11.168468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.58159375,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.172218750000003,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.48784375,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.01471875,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.23784375,"end":32.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.236593750000004,"end":38.438468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.32471875,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.02034375,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.80846875,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.54596875,"end":57.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.70159375,"end":56.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.55784375,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.81096875,"end":58.924718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEA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這個因為"},{"start":46.84,"end":68.45,"text":"二十四萬左右啦。如果主計總署的估計是這樣的。我們是按主計總署這樣來看。我覺得那個數字好像不對啦。待會我們回去再查。因為我剛剛看到是一百多萬。應該沒有到這樣喔。缺工人數當中有多少可以用移工聘用的來補的?這個部分有多少?您說以移工來補嗎?"},{"start":70.834,"end":91.08,"text":"我們現在移工已經有76萬人那您是指未來在缺工裡面有多少要用移工來補?那當然我們現在是盡量看產業的需求還有包括我們家庭看護這邊的需求盡量來滿足那有多少是要用印度移工來補?"},{"start":92.63,"end":114.426,"text":"委員其實印度移工還不在我們補足這個所謂缺工的這樣的因為印度移工這個是剛開始而已它只是增加一個來源因為我們現在是這樣就是說我們的這個缺工的問題實在是非常嚴重剛剛我也聽到部長在其他委員諮詢的時候有提到就是說我們第一步是從一千人開始"},{"start":115.767,"end":136.824,"text":"我們也希望這個部分能夠盡快來彌補我們國內人工不足的部分我剛剛也聽到部長講了很多的問題也有可能說印度勞工適應的問題等等當然這些都是考慮的因素我們也是要求就是說也希望說我們剛剛也提到我們臺灣本地的我們自己臺灣的勞工看看有沒有什麼可以轉職來補足這個部分"},{"start":145.91,"end":171.705,"text":"當然 我很重要的 上完以後最重要的一個就是推動婦女跟中高齡的就業啦 那麼 這個部分我們預估有56萬的勞動力可以開發出來 所以其實如果 我們一定是優先處理這邊的 那麼移工還是一個補充對 因為我們本 其實我們臺灣的勞工也其實有很多 很多家庭啦 是需要工作讓他們來維持生計 是是是 那剛剛"},{"start":172.665,"end":181.684,"text":"我聽到就是說你們當初突襲式的簽約我稱為突襲式那您說是有這個叫善意的謊言"},{"start":182.574,"end":208.686,"text":"不是謊言啦不是謊言我要更正喔我不是說謊言那是善意的欺騙善意的隱瞞因為外交工作真的很難許部長當時很辛苦我比較不懂因為剛剛這個問題是不在我今天的問題裡面我是剛剛在台下聽到的就是說這個為什麼要有善意的欺騙不要講了善意的隱瞞好了善意的隱瞞好了那為什麼要隱瞞"},{"start":213.278,"end":230.594,"text":"因為外交工作真的很辛苦我覺得外交跟移工好像沒有很大的影響會喔會喔委員其實我要跟您報告難道又是共產黨搞的有地緣政治的因素啊他會管到我們移工嗎因為"},{"start":234.707,"end":236.348,"text":"主要委員跟您報告主要這都是政府對政府的談判"},{"start":261.499,"end":268.223,"text":"我再請問您就是說我們現在就是說我們當時我們有聽你們講說跟社會的對話就是3月1號跟5月2號兩次嘛看起來都是跟我們的協會、工會在討論那我們在諮詢專家意見的時候我們跟社會的溝通是什麼?"},{"start":285.373,"end":302.634,"text":"這就是我們跟社會溝通的平台。那麼經過這個溝通其實也很有效的瞭解說社會的需求啦那跟委員報告其實所有的僱主團體或者是工協會或者是產業界各方面他們都認為一定要雙軌啦"},{"start":305.816,"end":326.046,"text":"我們現在移工的這個是預計要職聘跟仲介嘛那職聘的部分我看到有很大的問題因為這個申請的流程非常繁瑣我看到我們說要建置職聘印度勞工的資訊的系統那這是要另外開發一個系統還是在原來的職聘系統裡面職聘的網頁裡面"},{"start":328.052,"end":350.063,"text":"就跟委員報告,這個所謂我們台藝MOU裡面這一個職聘喔,它是一個新的啦,它是一個新的制度。所以說要普及開發嘛對不對?對,那是從,那都,這個恐怕都還要再估算,因為也得等這個MOU通過以後我們再來嘗試。所以你們現在就是只有想法,目前只是想到這樣還沒有開始要準備實施就對了?沒有。"},{"start":351.412,"end":379.202,"text":"對,因為我們這個必須要往下走的時候跟印度有工作層級會議的時候我們還要考慮印方的配合度印方其實對這個MOU非常的支持而且非常積極我知道你們很積極就是我們看到我現在是擔心執聘的這個流程非常繁瑣沒錯我們也看到您在年底之前要辦三場6月29的高雄7月13的台北7月27的苗栗"},{"start":380.343,"end":396.178,"text":"我看到你們的網頁點閱次數非常的少到昨天為止到臺北高雄場的是634臺北場的是844那苗栗的比較熱鬧一點因為苗栗1313就是我的意思是說現在很多人還不曉得我希望說這部分我們部裡面能夠"},{"start":404.145,"end":420.532,"text":"對外再擴大宣傳可以嗎?讓大家能多瞭解一下,因為職品是很好,又讓大家不要被仲介都另外的剝削掉了委員我們也會挑選優質的仲介來做評選你的客觀條件是什麼?"},{"start":423.725,"end":423.746,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1f775c04fc480ea82b086792d041729578f090ddb9b7d6d69b6f4c723cc33aa495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"09:50:41 - 09:58:15","影片長度":"00:07:34","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:50:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:58:15+08:00","duration":454,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":284,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（9時50分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長早。"],["何部長佩珊：早！"],["王委員正旭：大家對於開放印度移工都很期待，當然也有一些擔心的部分，尤其是民眾，剛剛很多委員針對未來開放印度移工以後可能會碰到一些問題，也都分別請教了部長還有署長等等，這邊還是希望讓民眾的疑問可以有機會……剛剛署長已經有回答一部分，不過，部長可不可以讓我們知道一些民眾疑問的地方，這些疑問未來有沒有可能變成一個懶人包？什麼時候這個懶人包會出來來回答民眾的疑問？包括產業的類別會有哪一些？這個時程會是怎麼樣？在MOU裡面也有提到直聘，這是一個雙軌之下的其中一項，或者這是一個主要的原則？還有很重要的就是，現場也有外交部官員在這裡，關於我們外館簽證的審核量能，如果開動以後，這個量能我們能不能夠去承受？因為如果未來臺印之間有更多交流的話，目前我們只有2個辦事處，要承接這麼大的量能，在工作上需不需有一些人力上的考量？還有協助移工適應的準備工作，應該要如何準備？希望能夠讓民眾知道，也能夠很放心的，當這些印度移工進到臺灣以後，希望讓我們需要的缺工部分可以得到改善，這部分可不可以請部長再利用時間跟大家說明一下，也讓民眾的疑問可以得到解惑？"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。當然您提到的這些問題都是未來執行上每一項很重要的細節，我要跟委員報告，現在其實我們在勞發署就已經有這個專區了，有一個網站上有這個專區跟懶人包。而您問的這些問題，我剛剛講過，初期是以製造業為主，而且初期是非常小規模的，大概1,000人左右而已，最快也要1年以後你才會看得到這樣子，最快喔，這是最快的，如果雙邊工作會議都順利的話。至於是不是直聘為原則？我要說，這邊的直聘跟我們現在傳統的直聘是不一樣的，所以這是一個新的嘗試，我們也還在摸索中，這個部分我們會雙軌，一定是直聘跟優質仲介雙軌。關於我們外館簽證審核能量，我相信初期如果很小規模，應該OK的啦！未來也一定是有控制下的量，未來就算有大量，一定也是有控制下的量，可是這個前提是臺灣都很歡迎印度的移工，所以我們只能從小規模的開始試試看而已，萬一如果國人都不接受，那也未必能走得下去喔！還有協助移工適應的準備工作，當然我們責無旁貸，現在我們所有的移工來源國，我們都有建置這樣適應的機制來給所有的移工來源國，也不是只有針對印度，所以這個放心啦！未來當然這些問題都會是懶人包的一部分，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。我相信如果能夠順利把這個部分處理好的話，相對對於國人要引進印度移工也好，或者是所有的移工也好，我們都會很放心請他們在臺灣來協助，讓我們的勞動力可以更增強。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員支持。"],["王委員正旭：當然他們進到臺灣以後，很多的醫療權益還是得要幫助他們，讓他們有一些困難或者是有需要的時候，都可以得到好的幫忙，台大他們有一個新南向醫療中心，不知道部長對這方面有沒有一些訊息或瞭解？如何能夠透過勞動部跟相關醫療院所，對於這些移工醫療的相關權益，讓他們知道更多的資源，在使用上也可以更方便？事實上，這個不是只有針對移工而已，只要在臺灣新南向的這些民眾有需要的時候，都可以善用這樣的資源、這樣的平臺來協助照顧他們的醫療需求。"],["何部長佩珊：是，謝謝委員。您真的是提到一個非常重要的問題，我們的移工遍布全國，全國各醫療院所也許都曾經收治過移工病患，所以未來我們跟衛福部醫療院所這邊應該建置多餘的服務，這個是有必要去推廣的，可能不是只有台大，應該是所有醫院可能都有需要，謝謝委員提醒，這是非常好的建議，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩勞動部跟衛福部中間會有更好的連結，尤其是在醫療相關的部分。其實之前也有一個問題曾經請教過阿春部長，那就是關於黑戶寶寶的部分，這個部分我們也知道，在111年的時候針對無依兒少，無依兒少就是黑戶寶寶，對於他們在臺灣的安置有一些補償，費用也不算少，當然也不算多，在111年的時候是一千一百多萬，去年是八百多萬，這個財源其實還是一個很大的困擾，因為這些無依寶寶需要被安置的時候，事實上是需要費用的，財源要怎麼來？之前也有跟阿春部長討論過，這些失聯移工就醫跟育兒費用有沒有可能在未來，不管是跟仲介之間或者是其他移工來源國，有沒有辦法透過外國的仲介可以得到一個課責的處理模式出來？我們當然不希望看到這些外移的移工、失聯移工對臺灣造成的影響，可是在無法避免的情形之下，如果能夠有更好的方式來協助，尤其是醫療院所，當他們要幫助這些失聯移工他們的健康照護問題，尤其是失聯寶寶、黑戶寶寶的這種情形之下，應該也要適當得到一些權益上的保護。針對這部分，請問部長，不知道目前有沒有研議的過程，或者是有沒有機會研議好以後，也把資料送一部分到我辦公室？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我馬上跟您報告，MOU的第七條其實就是要求印方要負起醫療費用的責任，這個他們有承諾，而且未來也會課以外國仲介相關的連帶責任，其實這次在台印MOU裡面是有這樣的機制出來了。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們希望能夠看到好的成果。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.48159375,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.599718750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.92409375,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.961593750000002,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.09221875,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.121593750000002,"end":34.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.58659375,"end":36.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.10534375,"end":52.242218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.922218750000006,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.73159375,"end":58.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.63784375,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.88659375,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.98721875000001,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.33596875,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.85784375,"end":83.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.66346875,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.12596875000001,"end":99.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.40346875,"end":121.75034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.05409375,"end":130.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.47471875000002,"end":135.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.26721875,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.55721875,"end":152.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.35721875000002,"end":155.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.71971875,"end":161.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.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- 09:50:35","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:39:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:50:35+08:00","duration":672,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時39分）謝謝主席。有請何部長。"],["主席：請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好！"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好，部長早！這幾天剛過8點就已經飆破30度，到9點之後就過35度，請問部長今天上班的時候有沒有覺得很熱？"],["何部長佩珊：真的蠻熱的，相信委員也是這樣的感覺。"],["廖委員偉翔：真的蠻熱的，部長能夠感同身受真的很熱。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：事實上，去年就已經是有史以來最熱的夏天，但是根據歐盟氣候監測服務機構的評估，今年有86%的機率會超過去年的紀錄，變成最熱的夏天，同時在臺灣又有都市熱島效應，我們可以看到這個紅色的地方，北北基桃雖然行政區上沒有合併，可是卻變成一片夏日的高溫帶，在這個雙重夾擊之下，無論是長期在戶外工作的員工，或者是坐在辦公室上班的這些通勤族，都可以感受到炎炎夏日，而且我看未來只會越來越嚴重，所以我想要請問，對於高溫可能對於勞工所產生的傷害，部長有沒有什麼樣的應對措施？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，我們職安署在這方面已經有法規的修正，我請副署長來回答一下，好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這個部分在安全衛生的部分，現在我們在法規已經有規定，在戶外工作者，雇主對於他健康的保護措施裡面，包括要有遮蔭或是現場要有灑水降溫等等措施，還有一些健康管理的措施，這在目前職安法的附屬法規已經有明定。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我知道，說得很好！制度方面，我大概都可以理解，勞工在外從事工作發生中暑還有熱疾病等等這些職業疾病，是不是可以罰款，對不對？"],["林副署長毓堂：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，可以罰款，罰到15萬，但是我想要問的是這樣的罰款真的對雇主有督導的效果嗎？因為罰款基本上是須要等到職業疾病發生的時候才可以處罰，對不對？而且對於勞工已經產生的傷害有彌補的效果嗎？"],["林副署長毓堂：跟委員報告，除了勞檢以外，其實目前在宣導及輔導面，我們也是積極在展開。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。部長，我要告訴你，根據去年一個消暑商機與夏天上工的調查，指出有93%的勞工贊同政府規劃高溫假的制度，資方中也有47%的公司贊成實施高溫假，此外，還有高達96%的戶外工作者支持每月補貼2,300元的高溫津貼，部長，所以無論是高溫假或是高溫津貼，都有這麼高的民意支持，我在想勞動部何時可以研議出一個可行的方案？可不可以讓本席或是本院1個月得到一個明確的回應？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，高溫假這一個概念因為是針對戶外工作者，它也不是針對全面的勞動者，所以它可能有它的特定性，容許給我一些時間，我們來處理看看，我們來研究看看。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我想要告訴部長……"],["何部長佩珊：因為針對部分的、特定的工作者，是不是用一個假，這似乎是值得考慮的。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，所以我說有沒有可行的方案？我想要跟部長說，因為你今天是負責勞動部……"],["何部長佩珊：當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：不是經濟部和環境部，現在也不可能叫你去改變什麼大環境，這麼強人所難！可是過去其實也曾經有高溫假的議題，勞動部卻是以再研議的方式帶過，但我看面對現在極端氣候來臨，今年夏天搞不好會突破40度，這樣來講，很多勞工都是非常危險的，最近也看到，包含去麥加朝聖，死了幾千人，這真的是非常危險的事情。所以要請勞動部長對於勞工能夠多體諒一點，對於增加高溫假的可行性或是相關的部分，可以做出一個方案和研議。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我想應該是要在職安的相關法規裡面去強化，我請職安署來檢討，好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["何部長佩珊：就是要讓雇主能夠意識到這個問題的嚴重性。"],["廖委員偉翔：我告訴你，我們之前其實有看過勞動部被問過，不外乎你們大概就兩種說法，一種就是國際上沒有先例，二來就是美國也沒有高溫假。可是我要告訴你，現在已經不太一樣了，因為許多中東國家，包含伊朗、伊拉克，這幾年都有放高溫假的先例，美國也發現一個數據，就是這3年來高溫死亡人數是過去15年的3倍，而且每年高溫死亡的人數高於颱風、洪水、龍捲風等天災的總和，以加州為首，也開始著手要制定高溫準則及高溫假的法令。","就以美國的情況而言，現在它也將勞工的勞動程度分為輕、中、重度三個不同等級，然後做出高溫工作準則，根據這個準則，他們輕中度的工作者在體感溫度低於攝氏38度以下環境時，重度的工作者在氣溫攝氏30度左右，每小時工作45分鐘，必須休息15分鐘，而且不少必須在高溫下戶外工作的企業簽訂合約的時候都附帶高溫的條款。所以總結來說，他國的經驗其實也都可以借鏡，就算高溫假不能夠一步到位，我們也是希望相關的規則是不是有更細緻調整和精進的空間。其實以上比較這幾個國內外的高溫假，都是希望我們部長可以為我們勞工再多著想一點，並且督促雇主能夠共情，讓勞工跟雇主之間有一個共同的溝通機制跟橋梁。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是，我來檢討職安的相關法規好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那高溫假的部分是不是可以給我一個期限，大概是怎麼樣，是不是可以給一個方向？"],["何部長佩珊：我覺得是從職業安全衛生的法規這邊來著手會比較有效，比較能立竿見影，你如果用假的概念，勞工也未必同意喔！"],["廖委員偉翔：是，我剛剛有說沒有一定限制你要用什麼方式，所以你去檢討之後可不可以給本席一個……"],["何部長佩珊：好，我會給您這個報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：一個月左右可以嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外，回到今天的主題，上次許部長有說，大家、媒體問他說有沒有簽這個MOU，他當下說不會簽，結果隔天就簽了，為何？"],["何部長佩珊：我想許部長當時……委員，MOU其實也是外交工作的一部分，都有它不得不的……有時候可能是善意的隱瞞啦！這個請您諒解。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以他隱瞞了是不是？是善意的隱瞞？"],["何部長佩珊：我們外交工作真的滿困難的，真的請您諒解。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你是說他是善意的隱瞞就對了？好，因為其實他當初是說可能跟外交部溝通上有落差啦！但是我想要說的是，請問新任的何部長是不是可以更透明、更加按部就班、不要善意的隱瞞國人？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我從來沒有善意隱瞞你們任何事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我說可不可以請我們的何部長，未來可以透明……"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然，我對委員會都會盡我所能。"],["廖委員偉翔：上次也有問過，你們說網路上有造謠說引進10萬印度移工是假訊息，那我想要請問一下，這次簽訂之後，你們預估我們大概會有多少的印度移工，或是你們預估有什麼想法、有多少量？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們剛開始真的是會非常非常小規模，我剛才有講過……"],["廖委員偉翔：大概？"],["何部長佩珊：先從1,000人開始。"],["廖委員偉翔：先從1,000人開始？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：有沒有時程？預估說……"],["何部長佩珊：也沒有時程，甚至這個都要大概一年、一年多以後才看得到。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以一年多以後會先1,000人，然後預計可能兩、三年之後，如果辦的還OK，就擴大一萬人、兩萬人，這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然要逐步進行啊！因為我們過去也有失敗的案例，像以前蒙古的合約就失敗了。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我等一下就要跟你提這個。"],["何部長佩珊：因為這牽涉到對方來這邊能不能適應。"],["廖委員偉翔：好、很好，所以回到今天的主題，我想要說，無論是勞動部補充，或是移工引進國多樣化的前提之下，我們當然也算是樂觀其成啦！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是印度對於臺灣來說，我們彼此的文化差異很大，也有很多適應的空間，所以想要請教部長，有沒有相關的溝通機制可以讓主僱之間都可以瞭解彼此生活習慣、文化和宗教的差異？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，這是很重要的，而且事前可能就要先瞭解，我們本來就有諮詢會議，把雇主團體跟移工團體還有包括我們各方的利益代表都找來。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席認為這部分很重要，因為雇主方面應該也要多加的宣傳，彼此尊重。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為當初蒙古移工來臺灣的困境就是包含語言困難、對臺灣的氣候跟飲食適應不良，所以導致開放後的第5年就直接歸零，所以這部分也要提醒部長，想要問部長的是，我們在外籍移工引進的這些硬體條件，其實無論是時程、開放程度或是薪資上，都很難比得過現在的日、韓、香港、新加坡，但大家都說我們臺灣最美的風景是人，所以如果我們能夠有更多的人文關懷或是開放的心胸，是不是才更有機會可以長長久久的跟印度合作。"],["何部長佩珊：是，這個反而是我們的優勢啦！因為我們臺灣對移工的溫暖、對移工這樣的包容。"],["廖委員偉翔：我把這個部分拿出來提醒你們，這個部分很重要，不管是雇主和移工之間的溝通，我們應該要建立一個好的溝通機制，以及文化教育上面……"],["何部長佩珊：是，好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["廖委員偉翔：不好意思，最後一題，我們勞動部部長還有長照司的祝司長，目前看護移工的政策有沒有問題？日前副司長有說衛福部已經著手規劃要將外籍看護納為長照的照服員，請問部長或司長，這個新制度明年會不會上路？"],["何部長佩珊：這是移工團體的訴求，衛福部它只是回答……"],["祝司長健芳：中階。"],["何部長佩珊：中階，就是所謂的中階技術人力，您知道中階這個東西嘛！中階的技術人力能夠轉照服員，可以來研究這個事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以可以研究，你們還沒有決定會不會做，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，我們雙邊都還沒討論，那是移工團體的訴求啦！所以衛福部是因應這樣的呼籲，它有在思考這樣的方向而已，我們雙邊還沒有討論。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：時間的關係，謝謝廖委員。接下來我們請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_000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有請我們何部長請何部長部長好部長早這幾天剛過8點就已經飆破30度然後到9點之後就過35度請問部長今天上班的時候有沒有覺得很熱"},{"start":28.592,"end":28.732,"text":"議員﹖廖偉翔議員﹖"},{"start":45.542,"end":71.603,"text":"的機率會超過去年的紀錄,變成最熱的夏天。那同時在台灣又有這樣子的一個現象,就是都市熱島效應,造成我們可以看到這個紅色的地方,北北基塔雖然行政區上沒有合併,可是卻變成夏日的高溫帶,變成一片。在這個雙重夾擊之下,無論是長期在戶外工作的員工,或是坐在辦公室上班的這些通勤族,都可以感受到炎炎夏日。"},{"start":72.344,"end":83.44,"text":"那而且我看未來只會越來越嚴重喔所以我想要請問對於這個高溫所可能對於勞工產生的傷害部長有沒有什麼樣的應對措施"},{"start":85.401,"end":105.061,"text":"執行局在這方面本來已經有法規的修正,我請副署長來回答一下好不好?在這個部分,因為在安全衛生的部分,我們在法規現在已經有規定在一個戶外工作者,他在僱主"},{"start":105.601,"end":132.999,"text":"對於他的這個健康的一個保護措施裡面包括說他要有一個遮蔭或是說要現場要灑水降溫等等一些措施還有一些健康管理的一些措施這目前的治安法的附屬法規已經有明定好我知道說得很好制度方面我大概都可以理解勞工從事在這個外從事工作發生中暑還有熱疾病這些職業疾病是不是可以罰款對不對是"},{"start":134,"end":149.093,"text":"對嘛,可以罰款,罰到15萬喔。但是我想要問的就是說這樣的罰款真的對僱主有督導的效果嗎?因為罰款基本上是需要等到職業疾病發生的時候才可以處罰,對不對?而且對於勞工已經產生的傷害有彌補的效果嗎?"},{"start":151.946,"end":169.115,"text":"跟委員報告除了說勞檢以外其實在目前的宣導跟輔導面我們也是積極的展開好那部長我要告訴你根據去年有一個消暑相機跟夏天上工的調查指出有93%的勞工贊同政府規劃高溫假的制度"},{"start":169.835,"end":195.036,"text":"那資方中也有47%的公司也贊成實施高溫假那此外還有高達96%的戶外工作者支持每月補貼2300塊的這個高溫津貼所以部長其實無論是高溫假或是高溫津貼都有這麼高的民意支持我在想勞動部何時可以研議出一個可行的方案可不可以讓本席在一個月或是本院一個月有一個明確的回應"},{"start":196.95,"end":217.789,"text":"委員高溫假這個概念因為是針對戶外工作者他也不是針對全面的勞動者所以他可能有他的特定性你容許給我一些時間我們來處理看看我們要來研究看看因為這針對部分的特定的工作者是不是用一個假"},{"start":219.01,"end":234.363,"text":"這似乎是值得考慮是 所以我說有沒有可行的方案我想要跟部長說因為你今天還是負責是勞動部不是經濟部和環境部我想現在也不可能說叫你去改變什麼大環境這麼強人所難可是過去其實也曾有這個高溫價的議題勞動部卻是說以再研議的方式帶過"},{"start":238.286,"end":259.772,"text":"但我看面對現在極端氣候的來臨今年夏天搞不好會突破40度對於這樣的這樣來講很多勞工都是非常危險最近也看到那個包含去賣家朝聖死了幾千人真的這是非常危險的事情所以要請勞動部長對於勞工能不能多體諒一點對於增加高溫價的可行性或是相關的這個部分可以做出一個"},{"start":260.912,"end":282.051,"text":"我想應該是要在職安的相關法規裡面去強化我請職安署來檢討好不好就是要讓僱主能夠意識到這問題的嚴重性我告訴你喔因為我們之前其實也有問過就是之前也有看過勞動部被問過那無外乎你們大概就兩種說法一種就是國際上沒有先例二來就是說美國也沒有高溫價"},{"start":283.032,"end":301.133,"text":"可是我要告訴你現在已經不太一樣了因為許多中東國家包含這個伊朗、伊拉克這幾年都有放高溫架的先例那美國呢也發現一個數據就是說這三年來高溫死亡人數是過去15年的三倍而且每年高溫死亡的人數高於什麼颱風、洪水、龍捲風等天災的總和"},{"start":304.393,"end":322.065,"text":"以加州為首也開始著手要制定高溫準則跟高溫價的法令制定所以就算美國的情況而言現在他也將勞工的勞動程度分為輕、中、重度三個不同的等級然後做出高溫工作準則根據這個準則"},{"start":323.746,"end":341.265,"text":"他們稱中度的工作者體感溫度低於設施38度以下環境時,重度的工作者在氣溫設施30度左右,每小時工作45分鐘,必須休息15分鐘。而且也不少必須在高溫下戶外工作的企業簽訂合約的時候都附帶高溫的條款。"},{"start":343.243,"end":372.844,"text":"所以總結來說他國的經驗其實也都可以借鏡那就算高溫價不能夠一步到位我們也是希望相關的規則是不是有更細緻調整和精進的空間其實以上比較這幾個國內外的高溫價都是希望我們部長可以為我們勞工再多著想一點並且督促僱主能夠共情讓勞工跟僱主之間有個共同的這個溝通的機制跟橋樑這部分是是是我來捲討職安的相關法規好不好"},{"start":372.944,"end":401.32,"text":"好 那這個稿文架的部分是不是可以給我一個期限大概是什麼樣可以給一個方向我覺得是從職安職業安全衛生職安的職安衛的法規這邊來著手會比較有效啦比較能立竿見影那你如果用架的概念喔所以我剛剛有說勞工也未必同意喔是我剛剛有說我沒有一定限制你要用什麼方式所以你去檢討之後可不可以給本席一個好好我會給您一個報告再一個月左右可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":402.581,"end":429.593,"text":"另外回到今天的主題上次的許部長有說大家媒體問他說有沒有簽MOU他當下說不會簽結果隔天就簽了為何我想許部長當時我想委員這外交工作MOU其實也是外交工作的一部分都有他的不得不的有時候可能善意的隱瞞這請你諒解所以他隱瞞了是不是是善意的隱瞞"},{"start":430.513,"end":430.533,"text":" ﹝笑聲﹞"},{"start":446.647,"end":448.168,"text":"昨天也有問過就是說你們說網路上有造謠說引進10萬印度移工是假訊息"},{"start":467.896,"end":476.729,"text":"那我想要請問一下這次你們預估這樣子簽訂之後我們大概會有多少的印度移工或是你們預估有什麼想法有多少量"},{"start":477.233,"end":499.112,"text":"我覺得我們剛開始真的是會非常非常小規模。我剛才有講過先從一千個人開始。先從一千個人開始。那預估有沒有時程?預估說...也沒有時程。甚至這個都要大概一年多以後才看得到了。所以一年多以後會先一千個人。然後預計的可能兩三年之後如果辦得還OK就擴大一萬人、兩萬人這樣嗎?"},{"start":500.9,"end":522.546,"text":"當然要逐步進行啊因為我們過去也有失敗的案例像以前蒙古對我等一下都要跟你提這個就失敗了因為你要牽涉到對方來這邊能不能適應好很好所以回到今天的主題我也想要說喔無論是這個勞動部補充或是這個移工引進國的多樣化的前提之下我們當然也是算是樂觀其成啦謝謝"},{"start":523.186,"end":537.372,"text":"但是對於印度對於台灣來說我們彼此的文化差異很大那也有很多的適應的空間所以想要請教部長有沒有相關的溝通機制可以讓主顧之間都可以瞭解彼此生活習慣跟文化和宗教的差異"},{"start":538.801,"end":557.423,"text":"當然這是很重要的而且事前可能就要先瞭解我們本來就有諮詢會議把僱主團體跟這個移工團體還有包括我們各方的利益代表都找來本席認為這部分是很重要因為僱主方面應該也要多加的宣傳彼此尊重"},{"start":558.604,"end":582.765,"text":"因為當初蒙古移工就是來台灣的困境就是包含那個語言困難嘛對台灣的氣候跟飲食適應不良所以導致開放後的第五年就直接歸零喔所以這個部分你要提醒部長和想要問部長就是說我們在外籍移工引進的這些硬體條件其實無論是時程啦開放程度或是薪資上都很難比得過現在的日韓、香港、新加坡"},{"start":583.425,"end":598.031,"text":"但是大家都說我們臺灣最美的風景是人嘛所以如果我們能夠更多的人文關懷或是開放行兇是不是才更有機會可以長長久久的跟這個反而是我們的優勢啦因為我們臺灣對移工的溫暖對移工的這樣的"},{"start":601.152,"end":601.573,"text":"最後一題 馬上"},{"start":616.038,"end":633.153,"text":"目前我們勞動部部長還有我們長照的駐司長看護義工的政策有沒有問題日前副司長有說衛福部已經著手規劃要將外籍看護納為長照的照服員請問司長這新制度明年部長或是司長明年"},{"start":633.914,"end":634.715,"text":"衛福部只回答中階技術人力能夠轉造復原"},{"start":650.774,"end":651.114,"text":"王振旭"}]}},{"id":"154205","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154205","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1ec513577e0c16224b086792d041729578f090ddb9b7d6d6924c937f9f25b3ec65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:30:46 - 09:39:18","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:30:46+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:39:18+08:00","duration":512,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,35],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時30分）主席、各位官員早，我想請何部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：你好。部長，去年非典型工作者破了80萬人，所謂的臨時性或人力派遣的工作者占了快60萬人，所以我們這樣非典型的勞工不斷地攀升，除了固定的法令宣導，還有勞檢，勞動部有想要增加什麼措施嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：你是指外送員的權益嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：就是各種，對。"],["何部長佩珊：這個部分其實我們正在對外送平台的這個……我們有一個勞務承攬參考原則。"],["陳委員菁徽：有、有、有。"],["何部長佩珊：就是政府機關（構）運用勞務承攬參考原則。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，你們發布一個政府機關勞動承攬參考原則就是說，我們的中央主管機關如果利用這些非典型人力來做事，就要定期來稽查人力的廠商要守法，所以勞動部發布這件事不久以後，我們衛環委員會多位委員，包括我就有提案，要求主管的勞動部還有工程會、人事總處等等，政府內不分大小的單位都要有效地宣導，請問目前做的進度如何？"],["何部長佩珊：我們規劃7月下旬辦研習營，然後有3個部會會共同協助採購機關關於勞務採購契約依承攬參考原則，明定各項勞動權益；還有8月也會針對中央機關辦理法制宣導活動。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["何部長佩珊：也是3個部會一起。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們會從明年度的總預算看得出來政府要帶頭來做改善，並且你可以承諾說一半以上的機關在明年就可以做到內部至少一次的不定期稽核嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：針對各部會嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：是，一半以上。"],["何部長佩珊：我們儘量來做好嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我希望可以看到勞動部帶頭去重視，我們愈來愈增加非典型勞工們的權益。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員支持。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，因為您近期內也有說，要找經濟部合作，會利用審查國內的上市、上櫃投資案件，要求應先派遣，瞭解派遣跟勞務承攬的廠商有沒有守法，作為採購的評估。還說跟經濟部也要在履約期間，針對派遣員工的勞動條件合法與否來調查、稽查，更要在公司的年報還有永續報告書中揭露。因為你有發布這樣的新聞，所以許多的公司也很想知道這個細節，因為會影響他們上市、上櫃的條件，所以您會不會去修到經濟部主管的公司法？"],["何部長佩珊：不可能耶！委員抱歉，因為公司法是經濟部主管，發動方一定要是經濟部，我們只能儘……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您還是維持在宣導嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我只能儘量地呼籲。"],["陳委員菁徽：呼籲？"],["何部長佩珊：對，希望企業能夠善盡社會責任這樣子。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以其實不會有白紙黑字的管理依據出來？"],["何部長佩珊：事實上，因為針對上市櫃企業也非我能夠以行政命令去……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以就是宣導經濟部？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們只能儘量來呼籲。"],["陳委員菁徽：主導永續發展的主要權責是金管會。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：金管會去年也開始做了上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案，所以會去推出修正版本的上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案2.0。你這樣落實把派遣員工、非典型員工的勞動條件合法依據的調查、稽查結果，您會希望跟經濟部還有金管會溝通，如何落實在他們的永續報告書中嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在正在努力，希望ESG納入勞權指標，這個我們確實也希望能夠得到金管會及經濟部的支持。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您規劃的時間點大約是？"],["何部長佩珊：我們有和他們展開平臺會議，希望大家能夠趕快來協商。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們也會再持續關心這樣子的進度。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：勞動部5月2日有召開諮詢會，剛剛有跟很多位委員講，共識是印度移工人力優先在製造業小規模試辦，可是我們都知道，製造業的工作性質多屬於做多少算多少的承攬性質，所以也想要請教部長，開放製造業的印度移工有沒有可能再製造更多我國非典型就業人口呢？"],["何部長佩珊：應該不至於，因為這個和那個應該是兩件事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您覺得印度移工小規模是不會排擠到本國人的。"],["何部長佩珊：應該不至於，對，應該不會的，只是補充，我要跟委員報告，我們會推動臺印MOU引進印度移工是希望為臺灣的勞動力增加來源，因為我們現在勞動力缺乏，大家都喊缺工，主要是少子化的問題，我們需要增加新的勞動力，而且是優質的新的勞動力。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。這個剛剛很多委員也有關心，不過都還沒有很仔細地詢問到你，你的備忘錄內容第8條明文講到雙軌制……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：雙邊同意推動「直接聘僱計畫」，你們是說在雙方的法律允許下，擴大「直接聘僱計畫」，還會設立單一窗口及選工機制，第二行還有寫到，優先適用「續聘計畫」，所以您是要真的擴大直聘，還是只是應用在移工3年期滿的續聘上？你這個雙軌的直聘是想要第一階段就做，還是要續聘的時候才要做？"],["何部長佩珊：說真的，實務上，現在只能先從續聘計畫做，事實上，跟委員報告，直聘制度是很困難的，不容易！因為要考慮印度方本身沒有這樣的制度，我們推動臺印MOU是為了要解決缺工，不是為了要推動直聘，而來做臺印MOU，這個因果關係要釐清，我希望大家……"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂。"],["何部長佩珊：當然移工團體以及社會上有直聘的呼籲，這個我們都尊重，我們也願意來努力，可是要考量我們的國家有沒有能力推動像韓國這樣的直聘。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，但是這個是寫在您的MOU上……"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們還是會問你……"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然會努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：上面有寫擴大直聘，因此其實你擴大直聘的意思是續聘的時候會擴大直聘。"],["何部長佩珊：先擴大續聘來做可能會比較容易，而且跟委員報告，我們連國內自己的直聘都還在精進當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：有、有、有，這邊就有提到，其實我們國內直聘招募的數據都不到1成……"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：所以大部分都還是由仲介來處理……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：經過了這麼多年，我們也想知道，你要如何確保優質的仲介來進行試辦，這個KPI機制，你要怎麼把關呢？"],["何部長佩珊：優質的仲介，倒是我們會透過評選機制，其實我們臺灣的仲介產業是非常競爭，而且他們的競爭力也很強，我們憑良心講，其實好的、優質的仲介在我們勞動部都是有列檔案的，這都是可以透過評選來……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你們這個諮詢會有提到，也可能有印度社群私人引薦這個亂象，所以本席也在這邊提醒你，可能未來這個管理會需要注意。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是，對。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.38534375,"end":3.4397187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.16534375,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.25346875,"end":7.658468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.746593750000002,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.37846875,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.072218750000005,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.57846875,"end":33.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.595343750000005,"end":38.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.27409375,"end":38.252843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.602843750000005,"end":39.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.53096875,"end":53.03534375},{"spea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各位官員早 我想請何部長 謝謝好 請部長 委員好 謝謝"},{"start":12.283,"end":35.675,"text":"市長,去年非典型工作者破了80萬人。所謂的臨時性或人力派遣的工作者佔了快60人。所以我們這樣子非典型的勞工不斷攀升,除了固定的法令宣導還有勞檢,勞動部有想要增加什麼措施嗎?您是指外送員這樣子的權益嗎?"},{"start":40.558,"end":46.042,"text":"政府機關應用勞務承攬參考原則是,你們發布一個政府機關勞動承攬參考原則就是說我們的中央主管機關如果利用這些非典型人力來做事就要定期來稽查人力的廠商要守法所以呢勞動部發動這個"},{"start":68.358,"end":94.811,"text":"發布這件事不久以後其實我們這個委員會多位委員包括我就有提案要求說主管的勞動部還有工程會人事總處等等政府內不分大小的單位都要有效的宣導請問目前做的進度如何了那麼我們規劃7月下旬辦研習營然後有三個部會會共同協助採購機關關於勞務採購"},{"start":98.313,"end":123.367,"text":"議案一層欄參考原則明定各項勞動權益還有8月也會針對中央機關辦理這一個法制宣導活動那也是三個部會一起所以我們會從明年度的總預算看得出來政府要帶頭來做改善並且你可以承諾說一半以上的機關在明年就可以做到內部至少一次的不定期集合嗎"},{"start":124.508,"end":124.568,"text":"主席"},{"start":141.397,"end":157.136,"text":"再來因為您近期內也有說要找經濟部合作會利用審查國內的上市上櫃投資案件要求應先派遣瞭解派遣跟勞務承攬的廠商有沒有手法作為採購的評估還說跟經濟部也要來"},{"start":161.201,"end":161.221,"text":"議員﹚陳菁"},{"start":185.617,"end":208.153,"text":"不可能欸因為委員抱歉公司法是經濟部主管發動方一定要是經濟部我們只能進所以您還是維持在宣導嗎我只能盡量的呼籲對然後希望那個企業能夠善盡社會責任這樣子對所以其實不會有白紙黑字的管理依據出來事實上"},{"start":209.554,"end":234.577,"text":"因為針對上市櫃企業也非我能夠行政命令去對它做是我們只能盡量來呼籲主導永續發展的主要權責是金管會金管會去年也開始做了上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案所以會去推出一個修正版本的上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案2.0所以你這樣子落實吧"},{"start":235.538,"end":259.046,"text":"派遣員工、非典型員工的勞動條件合法依據的調查、稽查結果您會希望跟經濟部還有金管會溝通如何的落實在他們的永續報告書中嗎?我們現在正在努力希望ESG納入勞權指標這個我們確實也希望能夠得到金管會跟經濟部的支持所以您規劃的時間點大約是?"},{"start":261.687,"end":263.227,"text":"我勞動部5月2日有召開諮詢會說共識印度移工人力優先剛有提到了跟很多位委員講是製造業的小規模事辦"},{"start":282.352,"end":297.803,"text":"可是我們都知道製造業的工作性質多屬於做多少算多少的承攬性質所以開放製造業的印度移工也想要請教部長有沒有可能再製造更多我國非典型就業的人口呢?"},{"start":300.379,"end":320.076,"text":"應該不至於,因為我們的非典就業人口跟我們年輕勞工目前的對,這個跟這個應該是兩件事情所以您覺得印度移工小規模是不會排擠到本國人的應該不至於,對應該不會的"},{"start":321.457,"end":344.851,"text":"只是補充,我要跟委員報告,我們會希望推動臺印MOU引進印度移工是希望為臺灣的勞動力增加來源而且我們現在勞動力缺乏嘛,大家都喊缺工嘛,那麼主要是少子化的問題,我們需要增加新的勞動力而且是優質的新的勞動力這樣子"},{"start":346.612,"end":364.467,"text":"這個剛剛很多委員也有關心不過都還沒有很仔細的詢問到您您的備忘錄內容呢第8條明文講到說雙軌制嘛雙邊同意推動直接聘僱計畫而且其實你們是說在雙方的法律允許下擴大直接聘僱計畫還會設立單一窗口的"},{"start":367.169,"end":380.395,"text":"選工機制而且第二行還有寫到說優先的適用續聘計畫所以您是要真的擴大職聘還是只是應用在移工三年期滿的續聘上"},{"start":381.516,"end":398.952,"text":"你的這個雙軌的執聘是想要第一階段就做還是你要續聘的時候才要做?這個意思是說真的實務上現在只能先從續聘計畫先做了那因為事實上跟委員報告執聘制度是很困難的"},{"start":399.833,"end":399.873,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":427.961,"end":451.766,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":452.046,"end":452.086,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":481.866,"end":487.99,"text":"您的這個諮詢會有提到說印度的私人引薦的社群也很有可能有這個亂象所以本席也在這邊提醒您可能未來這個管理會需要是是是謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":510.1,"end":511.712,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥"}]}},{"id":"154204","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154204","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd190ccd2a1541f5c5eb086792d041729578f090ddb9b7d6d69bc5f279a864bc0545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:22:53 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人員開放做防務員這是觀光署的一個提案那麼報給國防會當然我們也樂觀其成當然如果因為這東西是這樣他是有薪資上限的"},{"start":123.686,"end":124.166,"text":"李慧琴"},{"start":146.128,"end":159.72,"text":"範寬喬外森最後還是期待未來開放移工如果剛剛講低薪的話你應該是從今年如果都在做這行業應該是去提振薪水而不是用移工來取代他我覺得這要去"},{"start":160.515,"end":161.736,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":184.919,"end":199.711,"text":"臺印的MOU裏面第二條的協議也是總額跟名額都由臺方決定那入境人數多寡臺灣有主導權所以問一下勞動部這邊未來會是針對於我們的製造業的底下哪一個行業優先來開放"},{"start":201.385,"end":215.593,"text":"是電信呢?還是食品加工?還是...我一看電信或食品加工都不是製造,他們算服務業,對。只就是製造業應該我們經過諮詢會議,像工種這樣的團體,他們是有表達意願的啦。可是我們必須等MOU通過之後,我們要再去訪問這個產業僱主的意見啦。然後讓他們確定到底是哪一個業別是最需要的。"},{"start":229.54,"end":230.001,"text":"請問先進來的規模人數大概多少?"},{"start":239.699,"end":244.061,"text":"對於僱主的優先資格,你如何評選?而且提出來申請的僱主如何知道自己具有優先性?"},{"start":262.773,"end":286.954,"text":"﹗"},{"start":287.114,"end":310.423,"text":"台灣事實上是移工的引進國可是難民會發生行蹤不明、醫療、勞資爭議、安置的這些需求那過去來源國當然會基於他保護他的國民的立場在態度上都會積極協助那過去在越南對於台灣境內的移工比較少提供支持相較之下印尼跟菲律賓在台灣都設有移工臨時的安置中心"},{"start":311.343,"end":312.324,"text":"對我方相當友善跟積極的表現"},{"start":341.104,"end":341.925,"text":"對於未來行方不明的勞動部現在在研擬外國仲介保護機制"},{"start":363.022,"end":390.927,"text":"要求外國仲介負擔遣返收容醫療費用,那要建立停權的機制,這個政策可不可以三個月內可以正式提出嗎?為了降低移工的負債造成刑方不明的問題,那勞動部接著應該要規範外國仲介公司仲介費合理收費,部長同意嗎?"},{"start":392.27,"end":398.834,"text":"最後大概還是要問的就是說整個台印NOU第10條本來就要達成配合推動職聘的這個協議然後現在移工團體也都倡議要學習"},{"start":419.302,"end":440.794,"text":"韓國的EPS這樣的一個制度韓國過去是仿效日本在開放移工初期到巴西成立了專責單位來引進所以想問的是未來如果現在團體訴求要台印MOU採取全面執聘勞動部覺得可行嗎委員我們的MOU現在是雙軌的"},{"start":441.715,"end":467.5,"text":"陳 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{"start":2150.84,"end":2168.318,"text":"主席各位同仁大家好這幾年來其實這個工廠大火已經造成非常多位消防員殉職包括2018年進棚大火然後後來的名陽大火其實看到都讓人非常的痛心那我也一直非常關心消防員的權益"},{"start":2169.039,"end":2196.889,"text":"那我認為說現在場所管理人要落實火災的預防自主管理也應該要提升吹哨者的保護所以在我的版本裡面有幾個面向希望來強化現有的規範第一個當然就是消防員的資訊權這個我也一講再講就是廠商應該平常就要準備好自己的化學瓶的種類數量位置的平面的配置圖然後應該要有明確的放置的地點"},{"start":2197.549,"end":2200.671,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2214.159,"end":2221.248,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2230.68,"end":2245.663,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":2256.946,"end":2263.047,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2284.259,"end":2293.19,"text":"好,謝謝黃捷委員的提案說明,那下一位我們請廖先祥,廖先祥委員提案說明"},{"start":2305.233,"end":2331.79,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員媒體先進那我想大家都非常高度重視我們打火弟兄的人身安全尤其是我們打火弟兄於救災的現場常常面臨高風險的環境那如果說他們能夠在第一個時間瞭解救災現場有什麼危險物品的資訊以及內部空間的配置對於他們做出這個第一時間迅速的判斷會非常有幫助 進而減少人員傷亡及財產的損失"},{"start":2333.371,"end":2362.154,"text":"因此本席於這個會期提出消防法相關條文修正草案那包括新增第21條之二那重點就是危險物品資訊揭露及內部空間配置的掌握要求工廠儲存化學品之倉庫及儲存場所之管理權人對於具有危害之化學品應於該場所明顯位置設置危害風險標示板標明危險物品資訊揭露及內部空間配置"},{"start":2363.115,"end":2381.666,"text":"當危害風險有變動時,就應該要立即時更新,以保障修防人員於救災現場之生命安全,並提高救災效率及降低風險。令修正第15條,公共危險物品及可安性高壓氣體依據主管機關訂定的安全管理辦法規定,應依其"},{"start":2382.466,"end":2407.465,"text":"五、容器、裝載及搬運方法進行安全搬運,打管質量時,應在製造、儲存或處理場所以安全方法進行儲存或處理。六、儲管機關對於違反上述規定者其兼具獎金修正為因,以時收罰還總金額收入至一定比例,提供獎金。"},{"start":2408.447,"end":2417.492,"text":"其中蔣麗堅舉發人以鼓勵其揭發違法行為,進而促進企業合規及提高工作場所的安全。"},{"start":2418.704,"end":2429.835,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":2442.626,"end":2451.249,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2467.084,"end":2481.069,"text":"現在補充介紹,我們現場在場的王美惠委員、施巧惠委員、李柏毅委員,謝謝。現在我們再來確定議事錄,請各位委員上次的會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏。好,我們議事錄就確定,謝謝。"},{"start":2500.095,"end":2528.807,"text":"因為我跟各位報告一下今天議程原定審查行政院消防法第8案其中行政院與範圍委員的提案因國民黨黨團未簽署不附議同意書導致今天無法審查而因消防員以職業安全衛生專章目前只有行政院版提出"},{"start":2530.171,"end":2543.693,"text":"五、審查造成不能立法本席身為新北市義消大隊長每每看到消防人員的性質都感到十分的痛心因此消防法與院會一睹後應立刻排審希望能朝委共同的討論共識下能夠強化火場的資訊權及強化企業對災害"},{"start":2558.468,"end":2572.474,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2590.886,"end":2600.78,"text":"所以我們今天真的很遺憾那我們現在是不是請我們內政部長我們劉世芳部長來做報告謝謝"},{"start":2607.662,"end":2608.863,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2622.808,"end":2630.55,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2651.235,"end":2676.906,"text":"我今天除了謝謝各位委員關心這樣的草案以外,跟大家報告一下行政院現在版本的修正方向。第一個,本次消防法共計修正有22條條文。修法重點為第一,敦促公司企業要重視自主風險管理,以減少火災發生後社會所需付出的重大成本。第二,我們增訂,如果沒有訂定,"},{"start":2677.506,"end":2680.927,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2703.933,"end":2718.91,"text":"三、為強化消防人員資訊權的行使,儲存化學品倉庫以及場所,應該常識備制消防搶救的必要資訊。火災時,如果為指派專責人員提供相關資訊,最高可罰1,000萬元新台幣,以及確保"},{"start":2723.976,"end":2728.518,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2744.685,"end":2769.437,"text":"又鑒於近年來消防人員多次發生因為搶救災害而殉職的不幸事故,為了維護消防人員執行職務的生命安全及身心健康,本次修法增訂《消防人員安全衛生防護專章》藉由法制面的規範,要求各級消防機關落實消防人員工作安全措施,以強化對消防人員的安全保障。"},{"start":2770.217,"end":2778.504,"text":"本次會針對鼓勵吹哨者檢舉不法、強化消防人員的資訊權,還有提高廠商未落實設備維護的安全管理的罰則,增訂廠商未落實自主管理致人死傷的刑責及建立消防人員職安專章等修法內涵,尚無爭議性,其能藉由這個契機順利完成立法,以敦促公司企業以及社會大眾"},{"start":2796.437,"end":2805.179,"text":"五、重視自主風險管理,確保公共安全及保障民眾的權益。以上報告,敬請各位委員、女士先生多餘指教。謝謝。好,謝謝我們部長的報告。其他單位的報告,請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。"},{"start":2824.621,"end":2852.776,"text":"現在進行審打委員執行前,原內做以下先告本會委員發言時間4分鐘,必要延長2分鐘。非本會委員發言時間4分鐘,上午10點30分截止發言登記。因本次的會議法案處理,我們就不處理臨時提案。請各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見,好。"},{"start":2853.575,"end":2858.939,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2885.954,"end":2899.966,"text":"我們今天修正消防法,主要是希望給消防員最大的安全保障再提升,因為近10年,大概有32位弟兄不幸因公殉職。"},{"start":2900.987,"end":2904.551,"text":"今天修了這部消防法,我們可以解決哪些問題?我們剛剛在簡單的報告裡面有提到,第一個我們當然是工廠的管理要加強,也就是說工廠不要把他的這個防火的這個社會成本轉嫁給社會,應該自行管理。"},{"start":2922.369,"end":2927.214,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2944.67,"end":2947.432,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":2965.282,"end":2967.124,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":2987.301,"end":2987.961,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3005.632,"end":3007.655,"text":"謝謝蘇委員的指教,我想非常的重要,因為我們未來如果法令三讀通過之後,我們會跟經濟部配合,尤其對於工業區,不管大型的、中小企業聚集的地方,我們會做宣導。因為這一次的管理規則的變動其實蠻細的,"},{"start":3021.295,"end":3027.48,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3050.419,"end":3077.382,"text":"好,所以這是第一個部分那第二個部分呢剛剛既然說到消防弟兄的部分了那我們其實是要給他更多的保障可是老實說你從法條文字上面來講大家雖然知道是得到的保障但是其實也加重他非常多的等於是行政負擔啦我必須坦白說啦因為比如說叫他填寫報告也好叫他去做健檢也好叫他去加強訓練也好這些都是應該做的本席都支持本席都支持"},{"start":3077.862,"end":3093.283,"text":"但是消防弟兄的勤務本來就已經很繁重了,這些負擔行政加上去,這些行政加上去會不會成為負擔?我想跟委員報告一下,如果他是對消防人員自己本身的生命安全保障的話,這對他是好的。"},{"start":3094.445,"end":3095.526,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3121.428,"end":3130.332,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心事實上剛才委員提到沒錯就是除了法律面以外事實上執行面很重要我們也很感謝院裡面也核定我們職業的忠誠計劃為了五年呢中央會有輔導團隊地方每個縣市政府就跟深耕計劃一樣有個別有輔導團隊不是說強制性你要怎麼做而是有專業團隊的精神跟輔導讓"},{"start":3148.139,"end":3160.122,"text":"所以我就定調你叫做利益良善嘛然後該不該做我也應該做所以這次要不要入法我也支持我都支持了但是光是行政作業這就是一定又是加重了啦老實講就是這樣因為現在的狀況是什麼現在其實就是消防人力其實有不足啦"},{"start":3165.464,"end":3179.755,"text":"所以在最後的時間我也跟部長和署長這邊再探討一下我們現在一直在說消防人力短缺這部分那部長我也看到了消防署現在包括這個考試的這個專科比重的計分他重新做了一個調整"},{"start":3180.495,"end":3181.956,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3198.424,"end":3208.652,"text":"對,是這樣的狀況嘛,所以你們因為這個數字你們做了調整,我也覺得這個支持。好,可是還有沒有其他的問題?我這樣去看資料以後,我會發現有一個狀況,部長不曉得您有沒有注意到,就是我們有編制原額,然後因為消防還不是一條邊,不是一條邊,所以各縣市有各縣市的做法。"},{"start":3218.519,"end":3238.417,"text":"所以在編制原額之後它會有預算原額你有沒有去看過六都的狀況不然我這邊把數字列給您看了你看看其實我不太能夠理解就是這個六都這樣列下來為什麼我們新北市的預算原額的比例是等於是六都裡面最少的啊"},{"start":3238.817,"end":3243.059,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":3257.245,"end":3279.154,"text":"是,了解,感謝委員。我們兩個部份來進行,地方政府怎麼增加它的預算援援跟編制援援,這個地方政府也同步在進行。那第二部分就是,地方政府也許認為說我們訓練不夠,那目前我們剛剛委員提到的外國的特考辦是1000名,那正期的學生我們已經擴充到400位,也就是未來每一年會有1400位的學生。"},{"start":3279.454,"end":3301.465,"text":"可是你中央在這邊你再怎麼加寬放寬考試的狀況調整狀況你讓人考上去了那如果地方政府不編原額那你還是一樣不足啊所以我會認為這個地方其實中央主管機關應該要下去看看這個問題到底是在哪裡啊謝謝蘇委員的提醒我想我們會預算原額要跟著編制原額一起來編你應該去看地方政府嘛我了解"},{"start":3304.706,"end":3325.648,"text":"未來我們如果有新的消防人員有編制到各縣市地方政府尤其是六都的時候我們要求他們的預算員要跟進我們現在看到尤其是本席新北市跟我們主席一樣我們新北市一個消防人員服務1600多位市民這其實是六都最高那我們的比例是最少那我回去看因為我們本來就是看那個新北市政府的新聞稿"},{"start":3326.169,"end":3327.269,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3356.209,"end":3361.32,"text":"好 謝謝我們蘇曉慧委員的執行 謝謝那下一位我們黃捷委員 謝謝"},{"start":3370.165,"end":3393.016,"text":"好 謝謝主席剛剛其實巧惠委員提到的這個我們高雄也是啦我相信部長自己很清楚高雄我們服務的人口比跟範圍面積比都是最大的因為高雄是六都裡面面積最大的沒錯 所以其實高雄的這個消防員的工作真的是非常辛苦在這邊也要幫他們爭取一下了相信部長也很清楚"},{"start":3393.616,"end":3397.878,"text":"那首先我還是要譴責一下在這邊譴責一下國民黨啦為什麼咧因為其實剛剛我們朝委也有講到了今天其實最重要的是要把我們消防法的審查開始進行然後希望這兩天目標本來是這兩天要審查完畢結果沒有想到國民黨團竟然拒簽這個不同意附議書喔讓我是非常驚訝我也覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":3420.129,"end":3438.286,"text":"因為其實這個在上個月在衛福團委員會這個是草野委員都有共識的就是都已經希望說一個月內要求我們內政部要把這個職安專章擬出來那我們也很努力的擬出來了結果沒想到他們今天竟然不要審在這邊予以最嚴厲的譴責我覺得這個速度是應該要加快的"},{"start":3442.29,"end":3446.412,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3465.419,"end":3472.483,"text":"因為這個真的非常非常重要因為當時的這個悲劇是六位消防員殉職現在想起來心還是很痛那我覺得最重要的其實當時有兩個問題一個是當時的圖資並沒有及時的更新那時候包括說他們手邊拿到只有最基礎的消防設備的資訊那像是危險物品怎麼擺放然後逃生出口以及工廠的機台等等"},{"start":3493.096,"end":3515.261,"text":"這些那時候都是因為沒有辦法及時的取得然後釀成悲劇然後就會增加救災的難度跟迷航的風險那另外一個我覺得很重要的就是專人在現場的協助就是只有他們自己熟悉地形的專人在現場才有辦法立即的協助救災的指揮官然後可以及時的告知這些搶救的資訊"},{"start":3516.781,"end":3537.991,"text":"所以後來其實我們消防法有做第一次的修正,就是在21條之一,針對這兩個重點先進行補強了。那後來其實就我所知,內政部其實也針對這兩大問題有給予非常大力的修正。那我想問一下說,後來我們消防署自己做的努力有哪些呢?"},{"start":3538.991,"end":3568.426,"text":"可不可以大致跟大家講一下我先跟黃委員報告一下大概有兩個地方第一個就是消防署跟相關的機構譬如說像化學署或者是經濟部他們對於所謂的危險場所裡面的危害物質要先事先提供那我們現在增加一個就是對於高樓裡面尤其是建築的這個示意圖也要先提供給消防隊員知道那第二個就是工廠本身上次像進棚大火他們最有缺失的地方是在於說它是放在"},{"start":3568.946,"end":3569.806,"text":"五、審查委員黃瑋園等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3592.134,"end":3603.024,"text":"好 太好了 謝謝部長那再來我請教一下消防署比較細節的部分因為其實就我所知你們現在也有把這個危害辨識卡把所有不管跟經濟部那邊要的資訊跟所有部會要的資訊都統一的說要揭示在這個危害辨識卡上面"},{"start":3609.349,"end":3624.582,"text":"那因為你們也有定一個說到2025年底要進行一個計劃就是要推動說所有的工廠企業都應該要有這樣的辨識卡嗎?那我想問一下說現在這個有沒有掌握說到底有哪些多少比例的工廠已經有把這個危害辨識卡都已經準備完畢了呢?"},{"start":3628.612,"end":3632.094,"text":"報告委員,H卡目前已經宣導到17845家,就針對危害辨識卡怎麼用、怎麼建設,那這些資料也用在話語協議上面。還有多少要努力啦?應該這樣問。"},{"start":3644.746,"end":3659.238,"text":"這個部分我們在整個統計以後我們在查閱還沒做到的目前就朝向這個目標因為目前剛才部長提到過這些資訊都放在化學院上面那我們在派遣的時候這個資訊也通知在派遣上面會出現出來"},{"start":3660.476,"end":3670.823,"text":"是用不同的方法來達成我們期待的一個目標是啦 那當然我的最終的目標還是希望不是只有勸導或者是說只是跟他們講醫生說你們要有這個危害辨識卡喔而是他們應該要強制的知道自己有這樣的責任跟義務這些東西都是必須要準備好的這個只是準備的基本而不是說跟他勸戒之後他才勉強的說對我們口頭上有告知啊"},{"start":3689.156,"end":3717.975,"text":"所以我覺得最重要的是接下來的救災資訊應該要入法那我也想要誠摯的建議喔在我的版本裡面我把這個危害辨識卡要放在一個具體的地方然後每個工廠都應該要標示把它入法了那這個其實也是你們在在這個推動的計畫裡面有建議的嘛就是說不管是放在執事室或者說他們的警衛室都有一個具體的地方明確的地方是必須要放置這一些資訊的"},{"start":3719.156,"end":3728.067,"text":"那我也希望說接下來是不是也把他入法讓他有一個更明確的規範然後告知說沒有放的話你是被需要被開罰的這樣大家才會有警惕才知道說這個是他們真的應該要盡到的義務"},{"start":3733.968,"end":3738.811,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":3754.681,"end":3774.414,"text":"最後講一下吹哨者保護,因為其實不管是在其他的相關的勞動的法令或是任何的類型的吹哨者保護,其實都是要必要的提供他們不管是法律上的協助,以防說他們因為吹哨然後反而被清算或者是說被找查,這個保護"},{"start":3775.795,"end":3796.748,"text":"所以我也希望說在這邊的舉發人也應該要予以不管是法律的協助或者是給予他們一些鼓勵,這方面的保護是不是也在這一次的修法中我們把它放進去呢?是我們的工作,原來是協務委員現在修正成工作者,相關人員都包括在裡面。是,就是等於是可以舉發的範圍變大了嘛。相關的人不會說就是很明確的說很容易被針對的對象。"},{"start":3802.682,"end":3805.443,"text":"四、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3830.334,"end":3853.503,"text":"謝謝,有請部長跟署長。好,部長跟署長,謝謝。剛才蘇巧慧委員,她質詢的,我覺得她身為新北市,她還是很客氣,主席也是新北市醫消大隊的大隊長。針對新北市,它的編制員額以及預算員額可以短差到接近900個人,這是什麼比例?"},{"start":3854.895,"end":3880.681,"text":"也就是新北市目前現有原額2500個里面,跟編制原額差了整整快要1000個人,996個人。當然縣市政府他有籌編預算、然後聘任等等的這些權利,但是相對造成新北市消防員的這些"},{"start":3882.388,"end":3903.761,"text":"兩千五百個人要多負擔一千個人力的工作,也就是一個人平均要多做快要半個人的工作,也就是本來如果說工作八個小時,他等於要工作加四個小時。這樣子的人力負擔,我想消防署應該有個態度。署長,你可不可以回應一下?"},{"start":3904.77,"end":3927.258,"text":"是,我們目前遇到人力的問題,其實地方政府也、議會也都在反應,怎麼樣讓消防人力能夠適當的擴充。你這樣講好像是新北市的議會反應不夠用力,差996個人那個比例。雙方面都我們共同來努力,因為消防人力是共同的問題,而且是公共財。我覺得這個問題不能放任,我舉高雄市為例,很努力的在補齊,"},{"start":3934.481,"end":3935.791,"text":"現在已經差了大概"},{"start":3938.131,"end":3951.537,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3967.175,"end":3985.025,"text":"謝謝李委員的關心剛好這兩位遜職的弟兄都是在李委員的選區裡面第一個我們按照消防署給他的撫恤是沒有問題的那第二個就是家屬有要求就是他們自己的家屬第一個要調到這個高雄市的消防局"},{"start":3985.825,"end":3996.688,"text":"三、審查委員李姓消防員等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員周智英等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員周智英等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4011.892,"end":4037.846,"text":"謝謝部長的安排當然對於罹難的家屬我們感到非常的遺憾對於罹難的弟兄我們感到非常的遺憾之外那部裡面緊急的做這些安排我想也要讓社會也要讓所有的我們的消防弟兄知道那我們有快速的做了這個安排另外針對吹哨者條款我想吹哨者條款這個定義非常的"},{"start":4038.649,"end":4046.972,"text":"在我們這個消防法裡面的定義非常的明確公司治理他當然對於他的成本控管"},{"start":4047.912,"end":4052.036,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4070.555,"end":4078.617,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4098.183,"end":4103.605,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":4114.549,"end":4124.997,"text":"跟委員報告我們是以實際用途來要求設置消防安全設備那我已經關心的就是設備怎麼設違章工廠的部分那經濟部他的特登工廠他有個專業的輔導那有經費的一個補助那這個經費補助我們結合消防設備司事來幫忙設計他的設備的內容然後取得到國家的資源的協助來強化他的消防安全"},{"start":4138.968,"end":4158.335,"text":"目前同步在進行當中。對,我想還是要加強我們消防安檢的同仁的這個權利啦。那最後,我看到今天我們勞動部職安署署長也有來到現場。我想周署長應該沒有對消防單位做過職安的檢查吧?"},{"start":4159.103,"end":4175.134,"text":"報告委員,消防單位不適用我們職安法。對,所以消防員的這些職安的這些相關的規定,未來這個包含他們的這些安全衛生防護法要入法的時候,職安署是不是有相關的意見要作想?"},{"start":4176.474,"end":4197.582,"text":"其實在消防法的職安專章的過程中我們職安署都有密切跟消防署提供合作把我們建議的條文內容跟相關訊息也發給消防署我想這後續我們會在兩署會更做緊密的合作我想這也是未來要稽查等等還有未來對於消防法要入法很重要的精神也請職安署這邊多協助謝謝"},{"start":4201.665,"end":4202.245,"text":"三、審查委員張宏祿委員"},{"start":4226.772,"end":4234.756,"text":"部長其實剛剛我聽了好幾位委員都有說這一個人員編制的不足的等等的部分其實我覺得這個問題"},{"start":4238.619,"end":4246.903,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4263.693,"end":4266.977,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4275.157,"end":4275.757,"text":"四、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具"},{"start":4299.383,"end":4310.524,"text":"這個氣候的變遷等等的像今年大家預估都會比往年更熱而且可能會一年比一年熱那熱我們擔心就什麼"},{"start":4311.533,"end":4319.54,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":4337.577,"end":4347.806,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4364.119,"end":4366.12,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4382.333,"end":4402.075,"text":"十分感謝委員對消防救災用科技方法來救災感到很高興。事實上部長也特別關心無人機在今年我們每個縣市會有補助4部無人機的狀況。救災機器人也是每個縣市有4部救災機器用科技方法來達成這個目標。"},{"start":4403.596,"end":4414.084,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4433.238,"end":4435.52,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4452.677,"end":4460.281,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4472.867,"end":4477.53,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4491.88,"end":4519.143,"text":"好 謝謝啦那另外我們本次的修正其實我一直在這個署長你應該知道我一直蠻關心的就是說我們這個化學品跟工廠危險物品我已經執行很多次了這次我們修法也是有把它納入但未來的執行我覺得"},{"start":4520.253,"end":4545.79,"text":"要把它非常的落實,這個部分署長有沒有這個把握,有沒有這個信心可以非常的落實。我為什麼要這樣說你知道嗎?我在廠房雖然我現在給你的是這個,我早上可能要進貨,我先把它挪開,你會知道嗎?你可能不知道喔,那你不知道如果發生問題的時候,我們弟兄就是照原來的這樣衝進去。"},{"start":4547.307,"end":4561.516,"text":"有可能會有那個喔。我們如何可以做到這樣?那其實以現在的科技,我們都可以喔。我們的辦法裡面其實施行的細則什麼?是授權你們去處理喔。那我們有沒有信心把它做到這麼細?"},{"start":4562.981,"end":4570.486,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4590.778,"end":4600.88,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4620.56,"end":4623.761,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":4643.286,"end":4667.461,"text":"那你怎麼知道這中間會什麼?我認為啊,署長你剛剛說幾年齁,我真的覺得齁,不用到幾年啦。我如果是署長,如果是部長,我會要求你們這個半年內、一年內,我真的覺得以現在的科技不是困難,是可以做到。那你做到,可以救我們很多的弟兄。這一點我要拜託署長。是,我們來努力。可以嗎?是,我們來努力。好,謝謝。謝謝委員。"},{"start":4670.629,"end":4671.73,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4692.09,"end":4692.25,"text":"補充兵役"},{"start":4709.235,"end":4734.962,"text":"農業其實需要高度勞力的一個產業,現在因為高齡化,年輕人越來越少,現在務農的人越來越少,那你補充兵役延長一年已經使台中很多務農家庭少掉一分的勞動力,那你現在要取消低收跟中低收入戶申請補充兵役的這個事情,對未來對這些中低收入戶的家庭,它是一個很大的影響。"},{"start":4736.209,"end":4737.81,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4752.422,"end":4757.845,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":4773.157,"end":4779.579,"text":"三、審查委員林二昌等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員林二昌等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4793.404,"end":4797.729,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員"},{"start":4813.793,"end":4837.929,"text":"改這什麼?第二陸軍啊。第二陸軍,我沒有聽過這種說法。沒有這個齁?你要為什麼這樣講嗎?不然先延續我上次的質詢齁。你在保衛警隊預計外是在2025年要駐派1811位這個經營警隊要駐防在油水電通訊等民生及產業關鍵的這個基礎上面齁。那原本保衛的工作是在科學研究派出所或是核電事務的警。"},{"start":4838.729,"end":4842.192,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4852.164,"end":4874.62,"text":"報告委員,我想您講的部分應該是說寶二總隊在過去一段時間以來希望它能夠防衛我們自己台灣的關鍵基礎設施。原先你講的像科學園區、工業區本來也是關鍵基礎設施,只不過我們對關鍵基礎設施上面的定義增加了,譬如說像電廠或是核電廠。那我想重要的部分是在於就是我們希望能夠防範"},{"start":4876.041,"end":4886.329,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4904.212,"end":4905.133,"text":"一般警專的訓練嗎?不然訓練刺針飛彈、手榴彈、重機械?"},{"start":4922.152,"end":4926.053,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4947.039,"end":4960.855,"text":"對,你讓我了解,本先生是要先告訴我們,你未來這樣子舉行的授訓,他是以重型武器為主,未來他涉及到的是,他的訓練單位是在哪裡,他未來在執勤是要拿什麼武器的。"},{"start":4961.596,"end":4965.421,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":4980.424,"end":4997.589,"text":"為什麼會這樣講?因為像台東縣,台東縣很特別,地形狹長,面積也大,原本的警力就不夠了,那你補充,增加補充的這些警力是到寶二區,那原本基礎的這些維護治安的警力不夠的部分,那我們要怎麼來解決它?"},{"start":4999.3,"end":5024.78,"text":"報告委員在警務的這個組織結構上面保警不管從保一到保七他們本來就各有不同的保安任務跟一般我們到縣市地方警察局去服務的這些警察同仁是不太一樣那您所說的是台東縣現在縣的這個警察的警力不足的部分那我們來想辦法看如何來解決但是也希望台東縣政府能夠一起來合作"},{"start":5025.18,"end":5052.731,"text":"當然,謝謝。謝謝部長。部長,其實本席擔心的是,原本的警力就在吃緊的,然後又把這樣的警力放到飽和區。沒有,我剛剛已經跟您說過了,在組織結構會編制上面,本來就是隸屬不同的這個服勤的項目,跟服勤的範圍。我們不是用這樣子的移撥的方式,這樣子太隨便了,我想這不太好。不是啦,是說基礎的經濟也要補起來,不然真的不夠了。那因為,其實像台東它不像六都一樣人口密集嘛,高樓林地嘛。"},{"start":5053.992,"end":5060.102,"text":"但是台東縣的治安一向都很不錯,所以觀光才會非常的有融解。執警的時候範圍變大,需要更多的警力。我們先講到消防的部分,台東縣主席給我一點時間。"},{"start":5068.493,"end":5091.506,"text":"台東目前我們的消防人員只有38位,這個是台東而已,還不包括全台的這個缺額,1400多人。那,署長你說未來要增加這個警專的這個特考的名額,對不對?是。增加名額不代表就有那麼多人願意考,也沒有入企那麼多。那這個部分,署長部長你們有什麼解決方法?"},{"start":5092.29,"end":5104.686,"text":"委員關心人力的進出,今年特考班有2200名報名,我們預期入局1000名。去年是考試科目,他的分數達不到50分,所以才386位。今年實際到考是1800位。"},{"start":5108.376,"end":5131.403,"text":"那看起來到考的狀況跟考試的內容那考試的配分我們也跟考試院調整過也就考試科目原則要求不變之下怎麼把像英文這些比較不是屬於核心課程佔的比例降低所以以這樣子的一個狀況我們預期今年的入取量會比較理想那這個入取量會配合今年狀況明年後年"},{"start":5131.863,"end":5136.986,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5150.074,"end":5151.595,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5175.535,"end":5202.333,"text":"不是,我想黃委員一定非常關心基層警員的福利,所以我說治安好是表示對他們多鼓勵,那所以現在要增加這個員額的部分,就是我們必須要跟台東縣政府,不管是消防或警察,能夠一起來努力,因為編制員額有了,預算員額也是要在地方政府,所以我們一起來努力,謝謝委員關心。謝謝部長跟署長的答覆,謝謝,謝謝主席。好,謝謝黃建斌委員的資訊,下一位我們,"},{"start":5204.872,"end":5207.313,"text":"四、審查委員王美惠委員,好,謝謝。主席,我們請消防署來。市長,在這裡因為有很多被審,不知道,在這個三天內,我們的電動車離電池,"},{"start":5232.588,"end":5241.031,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文"},{"start":5259.558,"end":5263.579,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5284.725,"end":5289.249,"text":"要大量水來滅火才有辦法達到滅火的目的。要大水跟有法度來修改。在這個過程當中,署長我還在想問,如果現在沒有淨水,如果有淨水的時候要怎麼做?"},{"start":5311.138,"end":5312.418,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5335.523,"end":5337.044,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5351.641,"end":5358.383,"text":"當水板就是組成一個水槽,灌水就可以用?對啦,我們要加強這個啦。這個訓練,我們都有訓練過,就是說...訓練的東西,你們訓練的時候,那個東西不是你們的啦,是律師做的啦。所以這種設備,要加強,不然律師也要用,跟我們也要用,這樣就慘了。好,這就是整個救災的方法,我們要幫助立法院。"},{"start":5378.229,"end":5380.972,"text":"本席要跟你說,消防的、休眠的,在議法2023年一月初開始,我們是做一天休眠一天,但是在這個過程當中,你覺得說,在9年你所寫的,"},{"start":5396.264,"end":5405.608,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5423.735,"end":5431.621,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5449.773,"end":5453.034,"text":"每個委員都有達到這個目標。市長,你要去瞭解一下嗎?委員,請提醒一下,待會兒委員會做不夠,我們來檢討一下。目前目前的狀況就是秦一休一或秦二休二,每個月的目前狀況是176家,另外加班時間。"},{"start":5474.038,"end":5481.361,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5497.045,"end":5500.047,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5515.994,"end":5519.736,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5534.704,"end":5538.206,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5563.717,"end":5572.966,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5576.769,"end":5583.856,"text":"主席,您對消防人員所作出的明確定義是什麼?主席,我問您,您是消防人員及消防技師的人嗎?"},{"start":5595.169,"end":5604.237,"text":"來回答一下。是,感謝委員明察秋毫。其實有規定的,後面25條之二,就是說義消人員,義消人員也適用到他的範圍。市長,你現在就是說第25條在你的安全衛生管理系統裡面,就是有包含義消。是。"},{"start":5618.109,"end":5621.492,"text":"因為這裏面本席要向你探討的就是25條知識,經濟的統計、評估消防人員的安全、針對消防人員種種的問題和做法。我認為因其疾病、傷害、"},{"start":5639.766,"end":5642.929,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5656.718,"end":5657.259,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5672.227,"end":5677.511,"text":"我們消防人員辛苦二少爺現在做義務的更加辛苦所以我們如果要整理他們的管理我們都要整理所以本社會去探討這些問題出來不只是說消防人員我們也不知道你是不是有哪一路這樣是很好的是一個有擔當的政府本社在這裡要跟你說"},{"start":5699.75,"end":5700.975,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5707.54,"end":5714.204,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5734.554,"end":5739.858,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5753.154,"end":5756.996,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5772.188,"end":5779.19,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5789.366,"end":5791.787,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":5819.119,"end":5824.781,"text":"五、審查委員高樓建築的建築防火避難安全要求重要。對啦,我重要,我現在是說,好心的人脫掉頂,他會脫,他會調查說可以啦,我們合作的時候,這有安全啦,沒安全嘛。是,是我們有需要考慮啦。哦,需要考慮,因為他是愛心啦,我們都有合作,要說有到安全的時候,我們也要鼓勵啦,因為我感覺,"},{"start":5847.947,"end":5849.308,"text":"三、審查委員王美惠委員"},{"start":5878.755,"end":5882.517,"text":"四、審查委員吳啓明等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員吳啓明等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳啓明等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳啓明等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員吳啓明等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5906.766,"end":5916.997,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5923.672,"end":5934.222,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":5950.56,"end":5953.103,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5966.096,"end":5974.039,"text":"跟教育報告,教育非常關心你自己也是議校的隊長。要跟教育報告就是現時我們已經想辦法改革在科技營的地方、科技領域,因為這很專業的,可以更快達到我們所要求的部分。那這一次呢,剛剛署長也有報告過,這一次我們在招考的過程當中還算順利。那如果順利的話,為了我們希望大概是兩年內可以補足1000到1400人左右。"},{"start":5993.565,"end":5996.026,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6018.817,"end":6023.741,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6041.877,"end":6061.469,"text":"在健康權情形之下,從去年開始,人事總署特別要求補假19,000也提高了,這兩個部分來處理。那也就是在這兩個大原則之下,我們的服務群時間怎麼在這個框框之下,"},{"start":6061.989,"end":6064.65,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具"},{"start":6077.475,"end":6080.137,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6103.735,"end":6118.494,"text":"情務的方針,晚上的情務是白天的三分之一的量,所以晚上的外宿是考量之一。如果在家附近的人可以晚間回到家裡面,時間就會相對減少。"},{"start":6120.416,"end":6125.638,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6148.425,"end":6151.347,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6169.818,"end":6181.883,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6199.734,"end":6201.475,"text":"三、審查委員李電池等17人擬具李電池等17人擬具李電池等17人擬具李電池等17人擬具李電池等17人擬具"},{"start":6226.269,"end":6235.796,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6256.235,"end":6258.797,"text":"所以這點是不是你要你就整套,這是我們未來要留住的。每個縣市有四台機器人,也考慮到運輸的車輛,就有包括在裡面,沒問題。"},{"start":6273.628,"end":6275.869,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6300.247,"end":6317.6,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6326.524,"end":6339.558,"text":"今天討論的是消防法的修法。大家都知道在上次民洋火災之後,消防人員上街抗議,要求要組工會。"},{"start":6340.339,"end":6342.26,"text":"三、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6370.879,"end":6374.601,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6390.709,"end":6395.391,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6413.999,"end":6424.965,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6436.09,"end":6440.874,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6453.964,"end":6479.336,"text":"九千次嚇死人了,所以我這邊昨天在質詢的時候請院長一定要督促秀山消防分隊提早來臨時編制。那昨天很感謝院長跟部長都從善如流。那是原文的部分請署長跟部長可以簡單來講一下,有沒有跟國際相比有沒有盡量來追上其他縣市分國際的標準?"},{"start":6480.737,"end":6482.659,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6495.891,"end":6521.87,"text":"很感謝委員,消防人力現在是各縣市正在擴編,尤其情報文化解釋罕有,人力的需求更大。所以縣市目前缺額是1400位,現在正在考特考的學生呢,有2000、200位的報名,我們要入選1000位。那如果說他的分數可以達到50分以上,我們可能考慮還要增額入選,這是針對每年這個量,那每年1000的量,"},{"start":6523.951,"end":6531.081,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6540.715,"end":6548.88,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":6566.31,"end":6591.617,"text":"當你這個員額在增加的時候沒有想到我們有些老舊的廳舍完全這個空間不足啊來今天跟大家跟部長報告一下看到這個圖大家應該都嚇到齁這個我們所有的辛苦的消防人員除了現在天氣非常熱到外面就在一樣回到自己的寢室或者是休息室的時候發現四個人啊住在一間只有不到"},{"start":6592.617,"end":6603.219,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6614.102,"end":6629.865,"text":"部長跟署長,在增加人力的時候,這個人還睡得下嗎?這個未來老舊宿舍、老舊廳舍的問題要如何解決?老舊廳舍的問題,內部裝修,我們去年、今年有針對150個分隊的內部,像這個凌亂或者是不乾淨,或者是有瘋癲,這個目前已經在做,後續還會繼續來執行。"},{"start":6642.088,"end":6652.953,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6672.043,"end":6675.727,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6687.678,"end":6705.909,"text":"若說委員關心秀山分隊。不是不是,我的這個不只秀山分隊,秀山分隊是還沒有,還連那個分隊都沒有出現,這是我們綜合其他的分隊,這個宿舍老舊的一個問題。那委員這樣好嗎,就是你有關提到這個宿舍老舊或是時間過久的部分,剛剛署長已經跟您報告是150處。"},{"start":6708.351,"end":6714.036,"text":"如果這個150處未來在改善的時候還是不合所需或者是我們要增加員的部分我們來想辦法但是我跟張委員建議就是說目前您在也非常關心所謂的社會住宅如果說可以在錦霄可以找到適合的這個地點我們也希望幫錦霄蓋社會住宅"},{"start":6727.888,"end":6735.354,"text":"如果社會住宅可以有這樣的一個空間或是有這樣子的時間出現的話我們的這個這個住住中心或是我們國土管理署就會來幫忙一方面也解決這個年輕的這個消防員未來他們的這個住家或是這個租屋的困難所以如果我們兩個可以結合的話會更好那尤其張委員所在的地區人口非常的稠密怎麼樣找到適合的空間恐怕邀請張委員或是相關的委員來幫忙"},{"start":6755.491,"end":6778.07,"text":"好 謝謝部長的回答就是未來大家中央地方一條心那我也希望說我們立法院是沒辦法增加預算可是內政部可以協助這個消防署針對一些或警政署針對一些聽證老舊如果找到一些地方可以來遷移的或者是可以來協助這些住宿的一些問題大家一起來努力好不好 謝謝"},{"start":6780.041,"end":6796.872,"text":"三、審查委員張柱倫等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員徐以貞等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃國昌等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員劉世芳等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6804.193,"end":6825.31,"text":"我想從去年開始就先有恆春公墓的執勤人員在過程中不小心被6噸的小型水箱車壓死而殉職。然後到了民洋國際的部分又有4名消防員不幸的殉職。另外在新竹移工宿舍的火警也有我們的消防員不幸的罹難。"},{"start":6826.491,"end":6831.014,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6851.389,"end":6867.935,"text":"現在公共危險物品及可燃性高壓氣體製造儲存處理場所設置的標準及安全管理的辦法,規定工廠有公共危險物品及可燃性高壓氣體達管制量的30倍以上要申報。"},{"start":6868.815,"end":6872.176,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6891.783,"end":6910.914,"text":"報告委員,我想您非常關心的部分確實是正確,那目前我們的提供不會是書面。譬如說我們自己在借接環境部或是勞動部或是經濟部的資料的話,其實都是用雲端。在派遣出去的時候呢,他們就要配備這個部分,包括我們建築物本身的一個構造圖也是要先派遣出去。"},{"start":6911.354,"end":6939.24,"text":"但是比較重要就是說火災現場的工廠管理人他要告訴我們變動的資料在哪裡也就是說剛剛有委員提到了我可能今天進貨一批放在A廠可是到發生火災在B廠你要先告訴我們請問一下他們多像這個部分啊我因為剛我想也是要跟這個部長建議的就是因為現在其實就是網路資訊時代其實可以放到雲端去那我們用加密的方式那請問一下現在業者就已經有做這樣的事情那多久會更新一次"},{"start":6941.344,"end":6963.341,"text":"跟委員報告,工廠管理法是半年,去年通過的那個,上半年通過是半年要一次。是,那這樣的時間,對,就像你們剛剛講的嘛,因為半年時間真的太長了,因為,對,對,對,現場的管理人員要讓我們知道說,對,所以是不是可以,在這個部分呢,我們是不是可以請業者啊,不然每週就更新資料,上傳雲端,然後到現場的時候,就是說發生火災的時候,現場的指揮官他其實在"},{"start":6969.686,"end":6971.147,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6988.4,"end":6989.701,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具"},{"start":7007.719,"end":7013.14,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7035.965,"end":7060.052,"text":"另外再請教一下部長有關這次院版修正的第25條之9的規定就是各級政府辦理消防人員的安全衛生防護設備措施跟健康檢查所需要的費用應該優先編列預算請問一下部長這次增訂這個條文的用意是什麼?"},{"start":7063.015,"end":7080.02,"text":"我想我們既然把這個消防法設定一個職業安全專章對於消防人員包括是正職的消防人跟義消本來就是要保障他的身心健康既然要保障他身心健康的話他不管是防護設備或者是他自己本身的體檢所需要的經費當然要優先編列那現在沒有嗎"},{"start":7082.18,"end":7105.925,"text":"我們現在優先編的意思是應優先編列,那現在本來我們針對現在的消防員就有編列。對,因為我想對於各級政府來說,一定就已經在做這些事情了嘛。包括地方政府,中央政府一定會編列。對,那地方政府應該是他只要裁員沒有困難的,他一定都會優先編列嘛。所以我現在不曉得說這個條文寫上去的意思是說,現在有地方政府沒有這樣做嗎?"},{"start":7107.993,"end":7121.326,"text":"感謝委員目前裝備器材種類消防就裝備器材種類真的很多那我們整個盤點以後像最近院裡面核定的23個計畫總共270億就是針對這個問題來解決目前狀況那這一次的職安的終審計畫也特別針對消防特定的檢查我們每年也匡列一定的額度"},{"start":7132.077,"end":7135.842,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7151.682,"end":7173.919,"text":"事實上有些地方政府事實上財源並沒有那麼充足,所以這個部分的話,如果遇到這樣的一個狀況,是不是可以請中央也優先提供補助呢?謝偉提醒,其實我們剛剛署長講得非常清楚,就是如果它是屬於全面性或通案性,譬如說我們救火的消防人員,他可能肺部需要做健康檢查,那這個大概就是我們全面會處理,但是跟"},{"start":7175.8,"end":7179.503,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7205.621,"end":7206.383,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7218.802,"end":7220.843,"text":"請問一下,這個意思就是說我們中央主管機關內政部消防署要罰我們的消防局嗎?是這樣的意思嗎?"},{"start":7252.149,"end":7268.617,"text":"第13條之二其實這個部分就各級消防機關各級消防機關所以他會有他的上級機關比如縣市政府那中央會有中央內政部或消防署這邊來執行當然目前這個條文我們會先從改善的角度來做處理不是一下子就處罰"},{"start":7269.657,"end":7280.4,"text":"因為我想這個部分如果說是罰消防局的話那你說好消防局的局長是要用自己的薪水去付罰還還是要用這個消防局的預算支付?"},{"start":7282.114,"end":7296.729,"text":"這個部分,我們事實上這個條文定點就是要讓縣市能夠面對到前面這些,包括剛剛委員所提到的,可能預算的編列、裝備器來提供,或者是他的訓練、或者是治安這些問題。我只是點出這個問題,希望說針對這個部分,事實上你罰消防局,"},{"start":7301.834,"end":7302.395,"text":"三、審查委員黃國昌等21人擬具"},{"start":7332.06,"end":7355.113,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":7359.375,"end":7370.184,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7376.429,"end":7389.04,"text":"當然,安慰辦法的修正、強化這個是保訓會跟人事總署必須要面對的問題,但我們先處理消防弟兄關係的事情。"},{"start":7390.027,"end":7407.997,"text":"過去這個安慰辦法該修沒有修該推動沒有推動大家全部都在踢皮球現在搞到要到消防法裡面去設專章不過目前基層消防員的訴求是全部納入《治安法》當中今天早上"},{"start":7409.028,"end":7431.036,"text":"今天早上,消防員權益促進會發了一個聲明,他們再次的呼籲,他們不希望用消防法裡面的專章,他們希望全面納入《治安法》。對於我們基層消防弟兄這樣的訴求,部長有什麼回應?因為《治安法》的主管機關並不是內政部,我是不是可以請相關部位來回應一下,好嗎?可以。好,署長。"},{"start":7438.547,"end":7461.925,"text":"委員好我是勞動部職安署有關職安法部分確實在102年的時候修法的過程當中我們試著要討論要把公務員納入我們職安法可是在102年的時候已經定調就是我們公務員辦法的安全部分你說102年定調嗎是我們那個職安法修法的時候那時候我們是希望102年定調是2013年嗎是是那個時候還是馬政府時期嗎現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎出了這麼多事情"},{"start":7467.405,"end":7494.864,"text":"這麼多寶貴的生命寶貴的家庭都破碎了所以我們現在是民進黨政府消歸潮水嗎2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎對於消防弟兄希望全面納入治安法來請教署長消防署的署長您是所有消防弟兄的大家長啊所以該幫他們講話的就是你啊贊不贊成"},{"start":7495.677,"end":7497.331,"text":"好,跟委員報告,事後給我一點時間說明。"},{"start":7501.084,"end":7527.599,"text":"消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高。這我也應該可以來支持這個論點。那消防的職業安全也比一般公務員還高。所以整個盤點以後事實上我們兩個研究案在做處理。一個就是針對於消防到底用什麼法律案來確保我的安全。所以在去年過去三年已經把美國的消防人員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到台灣。"},{"start":7528.98,"end":7538.524,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7558.353,"end":7574.064,"text":"我先跟署長確認一件事你要說明我也給你時間說明了剛你說我們消防弟兄的職業安全他的標準應該高於一般的職業安全問題是你們目前消防法專章規範的密度有比治安法規範的密度高嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":7574.969,"end":7603.491,"text":"各位委員報告,治安法裡面所列的這些項目,相對應我們都列上去。有嗎?是在現在的草案上嗎?還是你未來要規定的質疑?相對應的方向,大章節我們都列進去。是在法案上嗎?還是未來你要去另外定質疑?是現在在草案上還是未來要定質疑?當然,法案絕對不可能全部涵括進去。所以你要另外定質疑是嗎?後面很多措施。來啊,我就直接給你看。"},{"start":7604.653,"end":7629.131,"text":"你說消防安全應該要比一般的勞工標準更高然後你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面人家在職安法為什麼要用職安法因為職安法裡面針對僱主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫但你們現在所推出來的草案來我先問署長一件事有吹哨子的保護機制嗎已經列進去了第幾條"},{"start":7634.884,"end":7640.829,"text":"十五條已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。來來來,你把院版十五條唸給大家聽。好,感謝委員。公務員、省務委員這些到管制兩時,應該在製造的場所進行處理。那所以呢?還沒結束。後面應該是在後面的條裡面,這些場所,"},{"start":7668.225,"end":7694.302,"text":"我現在是說基層申訴違反職啊你說有吹哨的保護機制在第幾條?15條講的是什麼?15條講的是有關於15條公共危險這個是場所的問題耶跟委員報告公務員保障法這邊這個公務人員的吹哨應該是回到公務員的安慰辦法27條28條所以嘛我剛說月版的消防法沒有嘛是"},{"start":7694.642,"end":7702.67,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":7720.932,"end":7747.02,"text":"公務人員安全衛生辦法30條我不是寫在上面給你看嗎違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺他接下來的罰則是什麼有嗎你說在院版的消防法有我就跟你講沒有嘛還在這邊公開胡扯所以我問你消防法第幾條你講不出來嘛你胡亂引15條你以為大家不會看法條喔"},{"start":7748.502,"end":7773.921,"text":"十五條是你講的嗎那你說要回到安慰辦法就現在規範保障不足嘛所以我請教你嘛違反吹哨者保障他的法則在哪裡有寫嗎你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有吹哨者保護的條款有耶法律要件法律效果都有耶你們的消防法根本沒有啊"},{"start":7774.915,"end":7800.472,"text":"公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則你剛剛好意思在這邊講你們現在提供的保障比安慰辦法還要高來再往下沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網要對誰究責依照你們的版本這個是職業安全衛生法有的嘛沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網對誰究責"},{"start":7806.827,"end":7810.375,"text":"欸署長你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊?"},{"start":7811.461,"end":7835.802,"text":"兩部分公務人員對於他的員工出問題涉及到堵職這方面這個是有回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡我條文都幫你整理出來了OK委員關心的消防人員出問題的一個保障就回過到那個機制好 針對委員所提出的署長感謝這五個委員報告是辦公室報告感謝"},{"start":7839.685,"end":7861.479,"text":"我這樣說好了啦你上面寫的要對誰究責非常的荒謬啊你要處罰誰中央主管機關上級機關通知限期改善沒有改善要處3萬元以上30萬元以下罰款你要罰的是誰各級消防機關喔中央地方去罰消防局喔阿這樣是有什麼嚇阻的效果"},{"start":7862.762,"end":7885.973,"text":"你作為消防署的署長我等你的法案等這麼久你可以不守到這種程度還在上面胡扯讓人嘆為觀止跟委員報告是不是給我一點時間我們會後再跟委員詳細報告目前是直接用法律面的執行怎麼用輔導的方式來執行讓消防能夠走得更健全如果不需要法律只要輔導現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了啦"},{"start":7891.829,"end":7903.497,"text":"三、審查委員黃國昌等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員黃國昌等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員劉行廷等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員廖行廷等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員廖行廷等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員廖行廷等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7922.137,"end":7946.199,"text":"好,這個部長署長齁,這個你不要怪說在野黨沒有簽署所謂的不附一同一書齁,讓這個法條今天還是只能停在答詢的部分。實在是因為大家對於如何保障不管是消防基層弟兄或是說針對消防法的內容齁,其實我們認為有若干可以在更精進之處嘛,所以我們當然要提出版本。這我覺得有時候互相互相啦,像當初這個海保法對不對,我們就等政院提出版本。"},{"start":7946.98,"end":7947.881,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7961.018,"end":7974.605,"text":"第一個,我相信這次修法核心的目的是完善消防人員的這個保障,職業安全的保障,以及提升救災效率以及等等。那我就要先講第一個問題,這個有關於倉儲的問題。工廠管理輔導法21條1項,規定工廠製造、加工或使用危險物品達管制量者應該要申報。"},{"start":7981.408,"end":8006.449,"text":"那這次的修法行政院院版的消防法的21條之一剛好都是21條講說工廠、化學物品的倉庫及出身倉儲管理人平時應備置化學物品總量、數量、位置平面圖以及搶救資訊於火災發生時應立即提供消防指揮人員第二火災發生時要指派專人協助救災從這兩個法條其實可以看出差別這個純有化學品的工廠"},{"start":8008.291,"end":8019.998,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8035.447,"end":8061.357,"text":"如果平常只是配置,就是你講的就是準備好相關的配置圖,然後發生災難的時候才提供,來得及嗎?請回答。是,感謝委員。我們在這次修法也把資訊權的部分拉進來,就是專業的人他要現場提供就在院資訊的一個場面。我現在跟你講嘛,實務上來講,你準備好,萬一都放在這個場區裡咧?進不去拿不到怎麼辦?"},{"start":8064.404,"end":8077.545,"text":"申報跟被制的最大差異就是申報提早交到政府機關的手上出事的時候你第一時間你政府就直接拿是不是你就掌握資訊可是你如果只是準備然後發生的時候提供萬一他拿不出來怎麼辦"},{"start":8078.646,"end":8102.908,"text":"感謝委員,這個部分院裡面有特別交代,就針對倉儲的部分怎麼來處理,這個已經有一個案子在執行當中。那另外跟委員報告就是說,今年我們最近這幾天會把倉儲自動消血設備的...你不要跟我扯別的,你就談條文就好。就是你這個倉儲有化學品的,你只要備次你不用申報,會不會造成漏洞?有沒有可能造成漏洞?"},{"start":8104.375,"end":8107.298,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":8121.899,"end":8140.765,"text":"這第一個問題好不好,我希望你們再去做一下思考啦,當然應該要申報嘛,因為你預先掌握資料,到時候災害一發生的時候,我馬上掌握資料,我就在才會精準嘛,對不對。第二個,叫存放一般用品的倉庫啊,不是說只有化學品才要管理吧。"},{"start":8141.365,"end":8143.887,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8159.94,"end":8163.603,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8182.034,"end":8196.838,"text":"那這些易燃物品的時候燃燒起來的代價這社會要承擔的代價不見得亞於這個化學品的倉庫化學品倉庫的危險在於救災危險我完全同意要重研納管我也完全同意所以我剛剛才講應該要申報對不對但是這物流倉儲的危險在於燃燒的面積還有燃燒的時間跟程度這個不只是只有消防的問題它也有公害的問題"},{"start":8206.781,"end":8230.343,"text":"本席會這麼關心這個題目就是美孚倉儲大火那一把火可以燒三個禮拜那是多大的浩劫那請問部長請問署長這個化學品的倉庫跟一般物品的倉庫哪一個比較危險應該都很危險吧對不對既然都危險那一般的倉儲要不要納管要不要列管在消防法的修正裡面你是不是要有一些專門的條文把它也納入列管的範圍跟我們報告"},{"start":8232.884,"end":8249.242,"text":"我們消防法管理的是它的消防安全設備這第一部分另外就是化學物品它的位置構造達到管制量的時候它的位置構造設備這是我們要去處理的地方這是我們法定的分工條文的這個區塊裡面所以剛才跟委員報告就是怎麼跟經濟部來協調"},{"start":8251.184,"end":8259.607,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8278.753,"end":8299.559,"text":"我們都肯定行政院很快的提出了消防法的修正案這個我絕對願意肯定這個是重要的民生法案當然既然是重要的民生法案我們當然希望在討論的過程中各方各面可以一步到位最後花一點點時間講一下主席你一定要給我30秒因為您是義消大隊的大隊長這法條裡面有規範消防員的健檢補助講消防法25條之6講說有健康檢查跟臨時健康檢查"},{"start":8305.12,"end":8321.766,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防機關要負擔費用,這支持基層弟兄百分之百同意。」三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防機關要負擔費用,這支持基層弟兄百分之百同意。」三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防機關要負擔費用,這支持基層弟兄百分之百同意。」三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防機關要負擔費用,這支持基層弟兄百分之百同意。」三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防機關要負擔費用,這支持基層弟兄百分之百同意"},{"start":8328.488,"end":8355.076,"text":"我們既然要幫義消爭取權利,我當然希望他跟一般的消防基層弟兄一樣,也有一部分健康檢查補助的這樣子一個機制。那你都可以准用25條之2或25條之4,你為什麼不能准用25條之6呢?你如果讓他准用是不是基層的義消,當然你講有經費分配有些壓力這本身都了解的,但我們總要往前進吧。義消在協助救災付出的這個程度,其實有些時候不亞於真正的基層人員。"},{"start":8355.896,"end":8360.519,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8381.454,"end":8397.312,"text":"雖然今天沒有辦法進到主條,但是我不管是第1會期尾巴或第2會期開始,我們趕快讓這個法完善的情況下來通過,好嗎?好,請繼續努力,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝牛先平委員的執行,謝謝。好,下一位我們蘇清淺委員執行。"},{"start":8408.345,"end":8413.351,"text":"我看你對消防人員的照顧不足,要做公會你不準,"},{"start":8429.874,"end":8437.639,"text":"消防人員的耗損率那麼高,受傷比例,我們屏東一個民洋大佛,就這麼多人。整兩天,八婆又站上去。我是,剛才我們主席是義消的總隊長,我是鳳凰志工大隊的大隊長。鳳凰志工大隊在支援我們的救護車,救護是很重要的。"},{"start":8454.808,"end":8457.651,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8469.79,"end":8473.431,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8493.773,"end":8499.157,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":8520.438,"end":8525.562,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8548.766,"end":8562.051,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8572.657,"end":8597.185,"text":"第12條因為在北北基桃非常嚴重的衛護部有搞一個主動脈剝離跟腦中風、腦血管動漠取酸素這個是要區域聯防區域聯防因為北北基桃這邊的民間救護車量不太夠"},{"start":8599.17,"end":8619.664,"text":"所以,常常坐在那邊等,要送到重症醫院,要等,有的要等到60到90分鐘,那個黃金時間沒了。所以我提這個就是說,如果民間的救護車,叫人家救護車超過幾分鐘後,是不是可以叫我們消防隊來支援?我們消防隊就去訪談說,怕死人,他們就沒人了。所以,是不是這個要再修改一下?"},{"start":8629.54,"end":8649.726,"text":"蘇董,你有看完嗎?剛剛講到委員,委員對於救護也很了解。目前,今天救護店差不多130萬件,差不多26秒鐘有一趟救護,這個負擔真的很重。所以剛剛委員提到就是,人力充實這個正在進行,是。當然要給我們一些時間,配合他的預算增加,來增加他人力。"},{"start":8650.666,"end":8656.428,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8680.296,"end":8703.464,"text":"所以要兼顧到消防現有能量,也要兼顧到民團現有的救護能量,我想這個是我們來跟國防部的建議的地方。因為北北基桃這邊的民間救護車的量是不夠啦,所以他會去說要叫我們消防隊來支援,但是消防隊本身我想我們可以只有這樣來修改,就是說我們"},{"start":8705.509,"end":8724.642,"text":"消防隊本身要在人力充足的情況下才來支援這個第二段的轉送那沒有的話就還是給民間救護車來執行這樣可能比較妥當啦因為你們的人力我看全台灣各個消防分隊沒有一個滿邊的"},{"start":8726.226,"end":8742.079,"text":"平東縣所有的消防部隊沒有一個滿編的,大家都缺額,而且有缺的很嚴重。所以我們部長跟我們署要努力的還有很大的空間,做的真的不足。"},{"start":8745.899,"end":8752.742,"text":"因為剛才蘇議員有說到公益人員不足的地方,我也在其他地方跟很多委員報告,讓我們兩三年的時間,因為我們這屆連消防的正職人員,要怎麼樣可以馬上到消防員的到位,真的是需要一點時間,不是今天說明就做得到。那我們現在考試的部分的話,剛剛我們署長報告過,這次的考試會比較好,不會像以前只有三成的合格率,現在可以提高到五成或六成。"},{"start":8772.89,"end":8775.031,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8793.769,"end":8805.715,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8822.423,"end":8823.684,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具"},{"start":8842.054,"end":8845.936,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8873.252,"end":8884.226,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":8890.004,"end":8917.135,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8918.893,"end":8939.459,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8950.749,"end":8977.681,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":8988.565,"end":9002.776,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9007.159,"end":9035.339,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9043.173,"end":9061.753,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9067.142,"end":9080.473,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9091.382,"end":9109.328,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9116.63,"end":9126.317,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9160.631,"end":9188.982,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文�"},{"start":9194.943,"end":9215.538,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9217.919,"end":9244.285,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9256.657,"end":9256.837,"text":"主席"},{"start":9269.4,"end":9275.743,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文�"},{"start":9298.533,"end":9306.059,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9323.191,"end":9340.824,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9344.264,"end":9352.588,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9372.819,"end":9374.86,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9391.286,"end":9400.13,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9417.859,"end":9422.243,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9439.556,"end":9449.404,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9461.232,"end":9466.596,"text":"當我們行政院第2月有通過一個方案,就是有中程計劃261,其中有人力補充方案和一些60億的社會更新。行政院邀請一國稅務,剛才我們補充就有說,當這2、3年會來補助這些人員。希望當這人員,我們可以,不要說設定當2、3年,可以更加加速。"},{"start":9490.516,"end":9492.599,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9506.078,"end":9510.122,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9528.373,"end":9537.298,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消"},{"start":9555.727,"end":9559.19,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":9572.181,"end":9574.603,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9591.693,"end":9595.055,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":9613.403,"end":9616.824,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具"},{"start":9637.972,"end":9641.993,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9660.32,"end":9688.482,"text":"我還要了解一下問題就是我們議社的國分輸用的經費是否同樣由我們中央才會協助?這我們要拼命。對,很麻煩,這就是重點,很拜託。是,感謝委員。好,謝謝,感謝主席,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝我們丁協聰委員的支持,謝謝。那下一位陳亭暉委員,陳亭暉委員,陳亭暉委員不在。那再來我們林大法委員。"},{"start":9691.192,"end":9692.053,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9713.034,"end":9735.143,"text":"部長我們今天想跟您就教這個我們基層員警的一個權益同工而不同酬那本席的這邊有個質詢的討論的一個方向第一個同工不同酬繁重加成比例是有落差的第二個我們來看警民的比例第三繁重加緊也應該要一視同仁最後有具體的要求"},{"start":9735.763,"end":9753.877,"text":"好,在同工不同從,繁重加成比例有落差。其實這也要感謝我們行政院,它很重視在基層遠景的業務繁重,全天24小時的維護社會治安、守護安全,甚至要面臨各種突發狀態,危險性極高,而且更在非洲豬瘟。"},{"start":9754.838,"end":9764.041,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9778.985,"end":9784.966,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9808.07,"end":9816.073,"text":"但我的桃園、台中、台南、高雄卻只能在這提升在5%之上,只能加7成。好,那難道我其他的這個六都除了台北、新北之外我們的勤務特別的輕嗎?好,我們來看這個警民比例。這個警民比例是從人口數跟警察、員警的比值。"},{"start":9833.018,"end":9841.881,"text":"也就是說警民比例值越高我每位警察人員的工作負荷量愈大。台北、新北這是110年、111、112、113年這近4年來我就以我高雄"},{"start":9848.523,"end":9854.087,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9872.421,"end":9883.654,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9889.781,"end":9912.823,"text":"好,那這個去年112年5月,我們陳其邁市長也呼籲比照雙北,呼籲警政署呼籲內政部應該要比照雙北,公平對待。現在一年過去了,那部長您剛上任,我希望您能夠重視這樣的所有,我只講六都而已,是應該要同工跟同酬的。"},{"start":9913.604,"end":9926.652,"text":"所以在這邊本席有一個具體的要求,就是在一個月內,內政部是否能夠基於公平正義的原則,全國警務人員應該疑似同仁,內政部即刻檢討現有的緊急繁重加緊的規則。"},{"start":9930.074,"end":9955.223,"text":"更正加擠的規則並且回溯機制本席認為這個回溯機制都應該比照到去年的7月因為它剛好是我行政院重視我們警員能夠提高到15%那我應該從這個時候算起有一個回溯機制好我們警政單位是如此也請部長是否能夠內政部來所屬的消防"},{"start":9955.803,"end":9961.128,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":9977.785,"end":9981.568,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10000.544,"end":10003.408,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10014.602,"end":10023.545,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10042.93,"end":10046.111,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10066.837,"end":10068.738,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10084.807,"end":10086.508,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":10109.685,"end":10110.786,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10127.932,"end":10150.589,"text":"今天署長沒有到這裡來。那部長您可以指示下去嗎?一個月完成。沒有問題,我馬上會交代下去,但是是不是給她一點時間,因為我沒有辦法幫她解決所有的。好,那我在這邊具體要求警政署一個月內完成所有勤務同工不同酬的現況,而且我這邊有要求這邊能夠還有一個回溯機制。部長可以嗎?"},{"start":10151.89,"end":10154.713,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員"},{"start":10171.511,"end":10171.751,"text":"三、審查委員林大煥委員"},{"start":10198.991,"end":10227.027,"text":"好,謝謝主席。部長,你休息一下。那我們請署長。好,署長。好,謝謝我們蕭署長。好,署長。本席在6月7號也有在這個行政院院會大院質詢行政院長施政報告。那昨天收到貴署的這個回覆。您大概沒看過這一份回覆吧。好。"},{"start":10229.476,"end":10242.676,"text":"也給部長一份首先我要延續我們之前所講的我們消防人力人多就安全"},{"start":10244.675,"end":10265.49,"text":"這個我相信也很多委員也都有反應現在消防最大的問題就是人力不足當然你們這一次的有七大政策提出七大消防策略裡面也有增人力這一塊"},{"start":10269.298,"end":10296.901,"text":"本席之前委員會也質詢,院會也質詢,針對人力不足的部分,你們回覆,特別針對去年,你們特別回覆,我們說招考不足,本席覺得你們宣傳不夠,所以老是招考不足,結果你們就回覆說有啊,有在廣為宣傳啊,你們怎麼宣傳?署長你知道嗎?你們是怎麼宣傳的?你們就是透過招募海報,"},{"start":10297.682,"end":10300.563,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10321.97,"end":10340.629,"text":"這個比我們一個地方議員、一個小區域的議員還要少人,你這個叫做宣傳嗎?部長你要了解一下。再來,本署持續積極推動充實消防人力,還透過什麼跑馬燈、電子看板、標語、海報、網站。"},{"start":10342.725,"end":10346.667,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10366.016,"end":10368.697,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10382.202,"end":10399.829,"text":"所以從這邊我們就可以知道,你要招收到足夠,我們現在人力全國都在哀哀叫囉。署長你知道嗎?知道全國人力都不足嗎?這一點。這瞭解,目前缺額是1400位。缺額是1400位,你想招收1000位,依據過去8年,8年的執政經驗,我每一次的招收都是20幾%。你這一次招收2200人,"},{"start":10410.453,"end":10430.117,"text":"那你20幾%就是招收400人,可是你目標是1000人。等一下再說明,最後再說明。所以這一塊,我們覺得宣傳不足。公務人員嘛,世衛素餐,你問所有的委員或是問你們的總統,"},{"start":10434.143,"end":10453.614,"text":"我們的總統,應該是我們的總統,我要宣傳我要拿票,假設我要拿10萬票,總統我要拿600萬票,我宣傳我可以只對100萬人宣傳嗎?或只對50萬人宣傳,我想拿到那麼多票,那你今天想要招收這麼多人,你隨便宣傳,"},{"start":10455.263,"end":10478.92,"text":"這就是最大的問題我們不希望再看到因為人力不足人力不足所以造成一直有我們這個消防人員的殉職這個要誰負責人力不足每一屆都不足連續8年人力不足造成消防人員殉職行政單位沒有責任嗎他們就只能這樣到了火場人力就是不足"},{"start":10484.827,"end":10498.437,"text":"所以這一塊本席要特別特別講再來因為時間的關係你們還有天裝備請問這次天裝備有沒有電子式火警災害現場人員管制系統有沒有"},{"start":10500.151,"end":10528.085,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10530.38,"end":10557.996,"text":"請問一下,你們的天裝備裡面有含給義消的嗎?也包括義消。因為義消他們也覺得,因為他們常常要支援,常常不足。好,現在您可以先簡單回覆剛剛人力的問題。感謝委員。消防人力的問題,以今年現在正在訓練這個問題是,剛才委員講到1800位,其實去年我們是要錄取1000位。那1800位在考訓的規定裡面可以錄取一半。"},{"start":10558.616,"end":10560.318,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10578.985,"end":10585.87,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10595.057,"end":10598.379,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10611.285,"end":10632.954,"text":"這個宣傳這個專家多的是你要用對地方是因為你們的宣傳費用我本席據本席了解你都用在其他方面宣導對不對那你可以撥一些啊讓人力充足真的消防弟兄的心聲就是人多就安全人多就安全"},{"start":10633.914,"end":10659.444,"text":"本席不希望我們下個會期下下個會期我們在內政委員會碰面不希望人力一直不足署長拜託你好不好委員跟委員報告今年明年1月份入訓就批我們期待人力會大幅增加這是第一個部分跟委員報告明年8月份警專的正期班入訓再批本來是150位明年已經增加400位"},{"start":10660.544,"end":10668.807,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案案件事項》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案案件事項》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案案件事項》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案案件事項》案。"},{"start":10694.433,"end":10695.154,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10712.432,"end":10713.393,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10735.185,"end":10756.053,"text":"但是要肯定我們內政部長上台後我看到院部長的發言都覺得非常棒所以對我們那個劉世芳擔任部長期待很高所以待會我的幾點要求也希望那個內政部長既然還有時間的話可以多考慮好不好我主要就是從我們基層消防員的一些期待那希望能夠聆聽他們的聲音"},{"start":10757.634,"end":10759.615,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10777,"end":10780.983,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10796.593,"end":10810.303,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10825.675,"end":10832.837,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10847.58,"end":10868.234,"text":"所以這個一千萬比起來如果遇到像民洋這樣是不是還是杯水車薪那我的版本是以年營業額之一定比例那這個部分我有跟你們溝通過你們覺得執行上有問題那是不是可以說明一下那是不是還有空間啦因為我是說以民洋為例的話你這一千萬雖然聽起來很高可是對他們來講可能還是罰不痛"},{"start":10872.637,"end":10875.599,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10905.135,"end":10923.654,"text":"考試員在定定協會法的時候,協會的代表就是基層同仁。所以委員建議說,在我們的執行委員會裡面,本來就協會的代表就是基層同仁。如果說委員認為基層同仁需要再增加,我們再進到實質條文的時候我們再來,是不是?"},{"start":10924.014,"end":10931.116,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10949.601,"end":10958.887,"text":"對於上限的部分,我們如果說合法的工廠都有年度額度,但是很多的不是合法的工廠,或者是年度額到底是多少,這個可能不好掌握。"},{"start":10964.411,"end":10969.939,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10980.194,"end":11002.009,"text":"所以這個部分我們是比較保留說這樣要不要處理那至於納入25條18這個我們可以再跟委員再來商討看怎麼樣把這個既然要列專章那列專章就是把消防人員保障服務做得更好那對他的一些權益這些能夠做得更好我想這個是我們共同努力跟方向謝謝委員那最後一個確定那個罰則你們會增加嗎"},{"start":11004.731,"end":11027.268,"text":"我們可以把委員的這個建議進行納去。那其他的部分可以再思考一下。是,我們再來考慮。或者最後不能修法,但你們確定會再執法做的話,那可能我們可以用這個附帶決議的方式處理,好嗎?好,好,就再勞請委員來跟我們知道。那再次肯定我們劉世芳部長在很多議題上都見急禮急,那希望這個部分也能夠把它修到很好,好不好?好,好,謝謝部長。"},{"start":11028.729,"end":11036.691,"text":"三、審查委員張祺凱等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11057.09,"end":11057.251,"text":"蔣委員好"},{"start":11066.909,"end":11078.072,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11092.375,"end":11099.041,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11117.336,"end":11131.559,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":11146.519,"end":11149.783,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11165.165,"end":11171.928,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11187.854,"end":11196.003,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11208.991,"end":11213.333,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11235.723,"end":11243.267,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11251.311,"end":11270.804,"text":"五月八號就三讀了,現在有沒有落實做這個事情?這個跟委員報告,那經濟部的部分的話,目前的話,針對申報的部分的話,大概有兩個規定。第一個叫做定期申報,大概是半年的部分。第二個部分的話,是叫做動態申報。動態申報,只要的廠商在工廠裡面的危險品的話,它有異動,數量的增減的時候的話,"},{"start":11271.624,"end":11277.146,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11291.051,"end":11315.947,"text":"不不不,我告訴你,你不要當年再公佈一次。動態動年期隨時要申報嘛,可是每一個月你至少是很清楚的,你要定期一個月申報一次啊。這個動態動年期你保證說好了嗎?你要把那個半年,你要施行細則裡面那個半年要改成一年喔?要落實好不好?是。OK,那就是串接,我要追這個東西,就是要串接到你這邊,你的資訊才能夠接起來好不好?好來,我再問一個最近,"},{"start":11317.851,"end":11335.538,"text":"這個事情很重要,前天南韓發生鋰電池工廠的火災,這個署長應該一定有注意到,23條人命。其實我們台北新北前陣子2月份深坑也發生鋰電池,那個工廠鋰電池爆炸,整個臭氣都燒到新店、中永和跟文山去了,鋰電池都是說危險,是危險。那現在針對這個有兩個很大的問題,這可能要部長要打了,"},{"start":11347.335,"end":11360.841,"text":"目前鋰電池的安全是山不管,山不管,你國土署有在管,經濟部只要有產發署跟標準局、消防署跟交通部,這邊現在沒整合,要怎麼樣才管這個?否定你可以出名去整合一下嗎?"},{"start":11369.534,"end":11392.131,"text":"我想如果站在消防署的立場,我們一定會來整合,因為鋰電池如果發生火災或是爆炸的話,最後還是要消防人員去負責救火。您剛所提報的就是有關於鋰電池的部分是經濟部目前在管,但是我們也知道其實我們消防署很快的就把美國的防火協會裡面如何處理鋰電池的火災的相關資訊已經把它download下來。"},{"start":11392.831,"end":11396.513,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11414.278,"end":11418.16,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11437.408,"end":11446.093,"text":"工廠的自動燒水我們在下半年會把這個條文列出來當成一個業者真的發生問題能夠達到一個控制程度的一個目標"},{"start":11446.801,"end":11468.524,"text":"我們把它具體化,好不好?我們來做三件事,好不好?第一,以南韓這個事情為鑑,鋰電池這個,我們先做我們的打火兄弟,我們消防一定要保護好,所以碰到這個鋰電池這個就在那個標準的作業程序,SOP,你目前應該有的,對不對?那你再怎麼把它精進一下,好不好?你在大概一個禮拜內?"},{"start":11470.219,"end":11474.463,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11489.363,"end":11492.624,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11517.253,"end":11521.777,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11539.022,"end":11559.269,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11562.631,"end":11583.028,"text":"五、審查委員林德虎委員不在。六、審查委員林思敏委員不在。七、審查委員曾政權委員不在。八、審查委員游浩委員不在。七、審查委員吳宗憲委員請執行。謝謝主席,那我們請部長。"},{"start":11590.879,"end":11592.36,"text":"請部長委員您好部長早安部長我就是等一下要跟您請問一下那個蘆洲地區的一些事情但我先剛剛因為我剛剛聽那個前委員有提到我想請問一下這個鋤能廠李電池這個鋤能廠這個"},{"start":11617.045,"end":11645.585,"text":"你們有沒有去看一下那個消防指引啊就是我們現在消防指引它所對的這個鋰電池儲存廠的那個電壓數跟現在的電壓數有沒有一樣就是我們那個原本指引說要距離多少公尺嘛譬如我們設了一個儲能廠在那邊然後我們多少公尺以內不能有什麼樣的公共設施因為剛好我今天是臨時想到我資料沒帶來多少公尺內有什麼樣譬如說加油站或什麼不行有那這個消防指引"},{"start":11646.385,"end":11649.214,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11652.293,"end":11679.731,"text":"是,那個委員可能您所提到是要蓋一個新的還是說現有的?因為如果要蓋一個新的話,它必須要按照剛剛我們提到不是只有消防法,消防法是輔助,因為工廠管理輔導法,或者是相關地區,是不是工業區等等這些,需要經過環境影響評估。那如果是現有的部分的話,要看你的儲存的量有多多。那這個呢,就必須要經過包括縣市地方政府或是中央政府的相關機關一起審核通過才可以設置。"},{"start":11682.373,"end":11700.713,"text":"謝謝部長因為我今天主要不是問你這個問題所以我資料沒帶過來是當我前幾天上個禮拜我在閱讀一些資料的時候我發現一個小狀況就是我們現行的對於這個儲能廠的消防指引它所對應的當年的那個設施是多少千"},{"start":11701.991,"end":11711.838,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11728.729,"end":11729.23,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":11734.44,"end":11743.386,"text":"二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11764.361,"end":11765.603,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":11782.341,"end":11783.021,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":11812.068,"end":11815.732,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11830.669,"end":11833.931,"text":"蘆蘭、魯北都市計劃必須與三重果菜批發市場共同考慮。三重果菜批發市場包括容積率的部分,先做一個很簡單的告訴我們是怎麼一回事,通過了以後你才能考慮"},{"start":11855.285,"end":11857.986,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11879.671,"end":11886.917,"text":"你要去回覆原來的民意上面,比如說有人有提出連署這麼多,你必須要去協調或是溝通清楚以後,再附送這樣子的一個資訊給我們在內政部的審查來條例的辦理。那我們在跟侯市長在處理的時候,他也了解這個狀況,也就是說你不能把三重還沒有通過的部分,然後就說我已經到蘆洲通過,然後兩個一起並行。"},{"start":11904.13,"end":11905.611,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":11926.078,"end":11930.042,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11952.441,"end":11958.903,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":11972.379,"end":11996.207,"text":"因為醫院的部分也必須要有衛福部經過他們的相關程序處理但是因為這個部分其實跟都市計劃有關係嘛那我才會來請教那個部長這一塊那我只是在提就是說因為這個東西醫院這個興建是當地所有人都非常期望不管他是什麼老人小孩啦黨派什麼都不管他們都非常的在乎這件事所以我想說部長你能不能夠在這邊"},{"start":11998.148,"end":11999.688,"text":"五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12023.635,"end":12042.888,"text":"好 謝謝部長那如果最後10秒鐘我們撇開都更不談但至少如果有其他方式可以先徵收這個醫院用地然後讓他們做這個醫院的規劃如果有這個可能性法規上可以的話再麻煩部長一般來講都市計畫或者是都更它是一個完整的區塊你不可能切割來處理"},{"start":12044.129,"end":12068.6,"text":"因為那裡面有包括公共設施或是包括其他的必須要處理的方向這就是為什麼我們都市計畫會常常會有需要很多的條件需要補足的時候才能通過那所以我剛剛的意思是說再麻煩部長在法規能夠允許我知道這個法規上有些問題我之前在新北當法治局長那再麻煩在法規能夠允許的情況下至少我們以醫院為優先的思考好不好"},{"start":12071.688,"end":12086.038,"text":"我們盡量在都市計畫上面,就是我剛所提到,你只要所有的條件都完備的時候,我們在都市計畫的委員審查裡面是不會卡關的。好,謝謝部長,那就等這一句話,謝謝部長。好,謝謝,謝謝我們吳宗憲委員執行,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,下一位我們張蕙祥委員,張蕙祥委員,張蕙祥委員不在。"},{"start":12095.755,"end":12109.089,"text":"楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在。好,謝謝。好,等級花園委員除不在場之外,其已經與花園完畢,執行結束。"},{"start":12114.585,"end":12143.04,"text":"五、審查委員高津樹梅委員、王美惠委員、楊瓊英委員所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報。書面執行及未答覆部分,請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本位。報告委員會,現在我們先讀討論事項所有的版本及條文,請先讀。"},{"start":12147.659,"end":12176.846,"text":"第15條,委員陳亭妃等提案,將第三項前段之行為仍修正為工作者,增訂第六項、第七項,舉發人因前項規定受有不利處分者,主管機關應提供必要之法律輔助,舉發人因其揭露行為有犯刑法、特別刑法之妨害冥冥罪或背信罪者,減輕或免出其刑。原第六項、第七項一列為第八項、第九項,其餘同現行條文。委員黃捷等提案,未增訂第七項,其餘同委員陳亭妃等提案。"},{"start":12177.466,"end":12190.839,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12201.969,"end":12215.648,"text":"條文修正為,工廠儲存化學品之倉庫及儲存場所之管理權人應依下列規定辦理,以平時備制化學品種類、數量、位置平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊,並於火災發生時立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊。"},{"start":12217.25,"end":12244.976,"text":"二、火災發生時只派專人至現場協助救災。委員黃捷等提案。第一款修正為平時配置提供廠區化學品種類數量位置平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊至於警衛室或廠室有人駐守支持日式固定位置至少每半年更新一次並於火災發生時立即提供消防指揮人員該等書面或雲端資訊。其餘同委員陳亭妃等提案。委員蔡其昌等提案。委員吳啟明等提案。均同委員陳亭妃等提案。"},{"start":12246.016,"end":12269.283,"text":"增訂第21條之二,委員陳亭妃等提案,工廠儲存化學品之倉庫及儲存場所之管理權人對於具有危害性質化學品應與該場所明顯位置設置危害風險標示板,標明危險物品資訊揭露及內部空間配置,危害風險有變動時必應及時更新,前向危險物品資訊揭露與內部空間配置掌握及具有危害性質化學品範圍,"},{"start":12270.363,"end":12297.67,"text":"項目與危害風險標示板之等級、內容、顏色、大小及設置位置由中央主管機關公告之。委員黃捷等提案。第一項後段刪除,標明危險物品資訊揭露及內部空間配置。第二項前段刪除危險物品資訊揭露與內部空間配置掌握等文字。其餘同委員陳亭妃等提案。委員吳啟明等提案。委員蔡其昌等提案。同委員黃捷等提案。委員廖先祥等提案。同委員陳亭妃等提案。"},{"start":12298.49,"end":12317.883,"text":"第三十五條委員陳亭妃等提案條文內容修正為長所致管理權人有下列情形之一於發生火災時致人與死者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑得病科新台幣一百萬元以上五百萬元以下罰金至重傷者處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑得病科新台幣五十萬元以上"},{"start":12318.743,"end":12333.835,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12346.926,"end":12375.113,"text":"四、第15條第一項所定打管質量公共危險物品之製造、儲存或處理場所,為符合同條第二項所定辦法中有關設置或維護場所之位置構造或設備規定。五、第15條之六第一項所定製造、儲存及處理公共危險物品合計打管質量30倍以上場所,為訂定消防防災計劃或為依消防防災計劃執行有關避難引導必要之業務。委員黃捷等提案同委員陳亭妃等提案。委員蔡其昌等提案。"},{"start":12375.816,"end":12382.528,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":12387.113,"end":12409.082,"text":"增加第五款文字如下。第二十一條之一,第一款工廠儲存化學品質倉庫及儲存場所之管理權人,位於平時被置化學品種類數量未知平面配置圖及搶救必要資訊或與火災發生時未立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊及提供資訊內容虛偽不實者。其餘同委員陳亭妃等提案。第三十七條,"},{"start":12409.862,"end":12426.597,"text":"五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12435.365,"end":12455.911,"text":"五、防火管理上必要之業務處新台幣2萬元以上30萬元以下罰款。第二項一列第三項第三項一列第四項並著作文字修正其餘同先行條文。第四十二條委員陳亭妃等提案委員黃捷等提案條文內容修正為第15條第一項所定打管質量公共危險物品及可燃性高壓氣體之製造儲存或處理場所"},{"start":12457.992,"end":12470.441,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。九、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。十、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12486.972,"end":12507.705,"text":"依前二項規定處罰還後,經通知限期改善借其人為改善者得按次處罰,並得予以30日以下之停業或停止其使用之處分。第15條之六第一項規定之管理權人未則由保安監督人訂定消防防災計劃,處新台幣2萬元以上30萬元以下罰還,並通知限期改善借其為改善者得按次處罰。"},{"start":12508.766,"end":12537.581,"text":"五、製造、儲存及處理公共危險物品、合計打管質量30倍以上場所所發生火災時,管理權人違反第15條之六第一項規定,為依消防防災計劃執行有關危險物品管理必要之業務,處新台幣2萬元以上30萬元以下罰還。第42條之3委員陳亭妃等提案,委員黃捷等提案,刪除第一項第6款,未則由保安監督人訂定消防防災計劃等文字,其餘同線型條文。"},{"start":12538.348,"end":12561.262,"text":"第43至1條委員陳亭妃等提案。第一項修正為違反第21條之一第一款規定場所之管理權人平時未備置化學品種類數量未置平面配置圖或搶救必要資訊或與火災發生時未立即提供消防指揮人員該等資訊或提供資訊內容需為不實者處管理權人新台幣50萬元以上300萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":12564.103,"end":12592.742,"text":"將第二項工廠修正為場所、增加於火災發生時等文字,並將罰款修正為新台幣50萬元以上、1000萬元以下。增訂第三項。第二十一條之二,第一項規定之場所管理權人對於具有危害性之化學品違反該項規定位於該場所明顯位置設置危害風險標示板或危害風險有變動時為即時更新或設置標示板違反同條第二項公告有關等級內容。"},{"start":12593.963,"end":12617.914,"text":"顏色、大小或設置位置之規定者處管理權人新台幣2萬元以上、150萬元以下罰還。其餘同現行條文。委員黃捷等提案。第一項修正為違反第21條之一第一款規定場所之管理權人平時未備置化學品種類數量位置平面配置圖或搶救必要資訊或未置於警衛室或場時有人駐守之值日室之固定位置"},{"start":12618.494,"end":12634.911,"text":"並至少每半年更新一次,或與火災發生時,為立即提供消防指揮人員該等書面或雲端資訊或提供資訊內容虛偽不實者,處管理權人新台幣3萬元以上、300萬元以下罰還。第二項,刪除與火災發生時等文字,其餘同委員陳亭妃等提案。"},{"start":12635.712,"end":12642.84,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12656.295,"end":12679.897,"text":"委員吳啟明等提案。第一項法環修正為新台幣5萬元以上、500萬元以下。第二項法環修正為新台幣150萬元以上、1000萬元以下。其餘同委員陳亭妃等提案。台灣民眾黨黨團提案。第一項法環修正為新台幣3萬元以上、120萬元以下。第二項法環修正為新台幣50萬元以上、250萬元以下。其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":12681.024,"end":12696.952,"text":"第47條委員陳亭妃等提案。增訂第二項本法中華民國全年全月全日修正之條文施行日期由行政院定之。委員黃捷等提案。委員蔡其昌等提案。委員范雲等提案。軍統委員陳亭妃等提案。宣讀外閉。"},{"start":12704.286,"end":12715.149,"text":"本次會議是行政院版本互為後再並案進行審查。本次會議就到此結束,先來散會。"}]}},{"id":"16038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16038","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505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ﻷ三、邀請國防部報告國防部機密專案預算需求．並備質詢。 ﻷ國防部部長顧立雄、軍備局局長林文祥及空軍司令部參謀長曹建平報告、委員王帝宇等18人質詢。 ﻷ均由國防部部長顧立雄、政治作戰局局長陳玉琳、軍備局局長林文祥、"},{"start":1826.081,"end":1852.232,"text":"空軍司令部參謀長曹敬平及國家中山科學研究院院長張忠誠等即席答覆,決定一、登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢,報告及審查結束。二、委員所提口頭及書面質詢未及答覆或要求提供資資訊,請國防部於二周年以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員令指定期限者從其所定。三、委員林毅君所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣錄完畢。"},{"start":1860.543,"end":1861.333,"text":"二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":1862.225,"end":1891.652,"text":"稍後再確認議事錄。現在請議事人員宣讀報告及討論事項。報告事項二,邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告漢光四十號演習規劃情形．並備質詢。討論事項,審查一本院委員馬文君等21人擬具國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。二、本院委員黃仁等24人擬具國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1892.052,"end":1917.507,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等25人擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。 bicy、本院委員賴世寶等21人擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。五、本院臺灣民眾黨黨團擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。六、本院委員羅志強等24人擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案案》案。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1923.22,"end":1949.994,"text":"我們先確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有那我們議事錄確定接下來我們法案審查的部分如有委員要提修正動議請於10點30分之前送交議事人員我們現在先介紹在場的委員還有列席官員首先介紹陳永康委員"},{"start":1952.595,"end":1965.662,"text":"賴士寶委員黃仁委員還有我們國防部部長顧立雄顧部長梅家樹參謀總長楊基榮常務次長"},{"start":1981.36,"end":2004.276,"text":"全民防衛動員署白結榮白署長總督察長市李榮華總督察長政務辦公室廖建新主任政治作戰局陳玉琳局長軍備局林文祥林局長主計局謝祺賢謝局長"},{"start":2009.039,"end":2036.01,"text":"軍醫局醫務管理處楊仲祺楊處長戰略規劃司李士強李司長資源規劃司鄧克雄鄧司長法律事務司沈世維沈司長整合評估司苗慧芬苗司長國防採購事趙雅萍主任"},{"start":2038.43,"end":2048.014,"text":"人事參謀次長是劉佩智次長行報參謀次長是顏有賢顏次長作戰及計劃參謀次長是陳文新陳次長後勤參謀次長是陳毅智陳次長通信電子資訊參謀次長是盧建宗盧次長"},{"start":2068.496,"end":2077.144,"text":"訓練參謀次長是張俊智張次長陸軍司令部陳建義參謀長海軍司令部邱俊榮參謀長空軍司令部曹敬平參謀長後備指揮部薛淵權參謀長憲兵指揮部呂正芳參謀長"},{"start":2097.363,"end":2115.128,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部、劉清勳參謀長自通電軍副指揮官王月陽王副指揮官軍事情報局第一處鄧敦仁鄧處長電訊發展室許益新執行長國家中山科學研究院張忠誠張院長"},{"start":2125.543,"end":2137.988,"text":"國安局黃明昭、黃副局長法務部法治司、調部辦事謝佑雲檢察官討論事項審查國軍老舊眷村改建條例"},{"start":2152.22,"end":2161.233,"text":"條文修正草案共有6個提案版本我們現在請提案委員做提案說明發言時間3分鐘首先請賴士寶委員"},{"start":2170.633,"end":2188.71,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進那麼本席跟馬文君主席共同提案其實是他要來提不過因為我的是第四案他第一案他當主席所以我就來代打我想今天針對這個"},{"start":2192.043,"end":2207.891,"text":"國軍老舊眷村改建條例其他的委員都是提第三條的修正案馬文君跟我是共同提案包括第五條跟第五條之一其實主要要解決的就是這個國安局跟國安會"},{"start":2209.272,"end":2236.375,"text":"他們這些的軍事人員就目前在國軍的眷村改建條例裡面是被也被排除的這對他們非常的不公平而我擔任立委這段時間國安會的長官國安局的長官都有來跟我講他們是大力支持的到目前為止其實這個國軍這一部分還有六"},{"start":2237.796,"end":2260.332,"text":"有八個村吧,是吧?有八個村。那麼在國安會裡面有六個村,六個村還沒完成的改建。原來國安會、國安局他們是要自己改建,所以才有今天的漏網之魚。現在確定了,國安會、國安局不改建了,所以理論上應該就會到這國軍"},{"start":2261.853,"end":2279.971,"text":"老舊眷村改建條例裡面所以第三條這個裡面很清楚的就是說為什麼一樣是國軍陸海空一樣陸軍官校畢業一樣軍校畢業那麼分到陸海空各單位我就有眷改條例"},{"start":2281.482,"end":2281.982,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":2311.882,"end":2335.51,"text":"我跟馬文君委員還有第五條及第五條之一規範的也是這樣的概念,就是把國安會、國安局規範得更細膩。我知道這個案子在國安會都同意,國安局也願意幫忙,但是國安部一直不同意。您現在請我們的顧部長來說明一下,"},{"start":2338.231,"end":2341.673,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":2359.481,"end":2384.222,"text":"最有資格來幫他們講話你當過國安委的秘書長現在當國防部長我們這個主要的職權單位在國防部我們希望國防部能夠藉這個機會能夠讓這些人能夠得到他應有的權益以上的一個說明之意思向各位簡單的報告請各位指教也請各位支持謝謝"},{"start":2390.908,"end":2402.43,"text":"現在請國防部顧立雄部長分別就漢光四十號演習規劃情形以及有關國軍老舊眷村改建條例的修正草案進行報告和說明主席各位委員先進面對區域安全情勢變化中共軍力擴張及持續對我軍事威懾"},{"start":2421.421,"end":2437.138,"text":"員進挑戰,國軍持續推動各項艦軍備戰工作與確保國家安全。今天應邀致大院委員會實施專案報告,將針對漢光四十號演習規劃進行報告,其實各位委員能夠了解國軍透過遠訓執行實戰化訓練的能力。"},{"start":2441.762,"end":2455.622,"text":"並支持各項國防事務推動。令大院各位委員提案修正建改條例六案,請各位委員考量歷年建改條例之一致性及公平性,並兼顧對眷戶照顧之立場周延。"},{"start":2460.253,"end":2479.309,"text":"法規內容被立言,建改工作能夠順利執行。接續由本部參謀總長梅家樹上將及政治案局局長陳毓林中將就漢光四十號演習規劃情形及國軍老舊眷村改建條例修正草案等兩項專題向各位委員報告。謝謝。"},{"start":2491.315,"end":2513.865,"text":"漢光四十號演習的規劃情形報告主席、各位委員新晉、大家早安今天本人非常榮幸能夠應委員會的邀請到大院來實施專案報告承蒙各位委員的長期的支持與鼓勵使國軍在建軍備戰上面有非常多的"},{"start":2515.049,"end":2543.646,"text":"注意,現在就漢光四十號演習的目的、構想、規劃、督考的編組與預期的成效、栽種的實施說明,敬請各位委員指導。首先報告演習的目的,面對共軍日益升高對我的軍事的威脅,敵可能的行動以及作戰思維必須迅速的調整。國軍防衛作戰計畫也必須持續的精進及修調。"},{"start":2545.373,"end":2553.385,"text":"本部藉由漢光演習來驗證聯合作戰計劃的適切性以及可行性以適應防衛作戰的需求"},{"start":2554.625,"end":2569.278,"text":"接續報告演習的構想依照共軍犯台的可能行動及參著歷年演習檢討與建議本部具以發展演習的想定並依照三軍的兵力的現況藉連續性的狀況發布以誘導各部隊按照聯合作戰計畫實施演練"},{"start":2577.25,"end":2593.88,"text":"今年的漢光演習總共區分三個階段在3月份的時候我們實施了高階幹部的土上兵推4月份執行的電腦輔助指揮所演習以及即將在7月下旬實施的實兵演練這三個階段來實施"},{"start":2596.261,"end":2616.374,"text":"並且將童心、自強、萬安及民安演習等科目均納入規劃至重點於戰力保存、整體防空、聯合階級、國土防衛作戰及民務力動員與全民總力的運用等。接續報告演習的規劃在高階幹部圖上兵棋推演"},{"start":2617.628,"end":2646.574,"text":"此目的是為了貫徹防衛作戰的指導由參謀總長召集三軍重要高階幹部實施圖上兵棋推演藉互動的研討與集思廣益達成作戰的共識使各作戰部隊能夠了解聯合作戰指揮官的作戰決心與戰略指導這個推演總共執行了兩週第一週是實施國防部高階幹部的圖上兵棋推演"},{"start":2648.134,"end":2676.16,"text":"由參謀總長指導說明防衛作戰的理念,使作戰層級的指揮官能夠了解國防部的作戰企圖、構想與所望的戰果。第二週則執行作戰層級圖上兵棋推演,係參據第一週的研討結果,針對單位首付的任務,完成作戰的指導,並明確立定各部隊的執行內容。第二階段我們執行電腦輔助指揮所演練,"},{"start":2678.655,"end":2703.821,"text":"是以合理的想定、序列及戰材、趨近敵我軍戰力及戰術戰法的實況誘導防衛軍演練以磨練各級指揮官用兵的決策、參謀判斷與計劃作為的能力並檢視聯合作戰計劃的適切性此操演是由部長任統裁官、國防大學的校長任副統裁官參謀總長任防衛軍的指揮官"},{"start":2706.221,"end":2726.152,"text":"我們是利用聯合戰區層級模擬系統規劃了八天七夜的對抗操演以強化國軍灰色地帶的應處、加強戒備、平戰轉換、應急以全面作戰等防衛作戰程序與行動。我們即將在七月要規劃的是實兵的演練"},{"start":2727.574,"end":2752.443,"text":"在歷年演習所奠定的基礎下及趨近實戰化的要求下分別由戰役、作戰及戰術等層級設計仿真的戰場想定及輔助狀況以誘導官兵操演、驗證聯合作戰計畫的可行性及各級部隊執行計畫之能力是由參謀總長任統裁官、三軍司令任副統裁官"},{"start":2753.561,"end":2779.264,"text":"我們強調以實兵、實地、實時並規劃部分海空的兵力實施對抗的草案並致重點於軍種的聯合作戰及業戰等以遂行、戰力保存、整體防空、聯合截擊及聯合國土防衛作戰等連續五天四夜的草案。草案科目的重點具有下列幾項。第一個,整體防空的效能"},{"start":2781.076,"end":2796.141,"text":"統合運用三軍部隊防空的兵火力、演練近中遠程整體的防護網並運用戰機增強聯合防空的效能與本島執行防空作戰的任務第二點聯合階級及反封鎖能力"},{"start":2798.03,"end":2815.379,"text":"審核海上空中的兵力、安置火力與海巡等與本島海空域遂行反封鎖護航任務以維持重要聯外海空的交通暢通並建立海上的擊殺鏈執行兵海打擊作戰的實兵演練。"},{"start":2816.516,"end":2836.702,"text":"第三點,國土防衛作戰,各作戰區指導海岸巡、特戰及地面部隊等遂行禁岸的防禦、反掃雷破障、反登陸、反空機降作戰、關鍵基礎設施防護與城鄉守備等實兵的演練。最後一項是全民防衛動員的能量。"},{"start":2837.799,"end":2863.419,"text":"此次整合了同心34號、自強40號、民安10號及萬安47號的演習運用地方的警消及民防團體與組織執行後備部隊的動員、民務力的徵用、戰災搶救防空疏散及災民收容等以發揮軍民整合及城鄉守護的效能。繼續報告督考的一個編組"},{"start":2864.946,"end":2883.26,"text":"這一次由國防部的總督長室及各軍總司令部那邊所屬的參謀負責演習期間的督考的事宜檢視三軍各級的部隊是否確依敵情的威脅將聯合作戰計畫融入想定及輔助的狀況誘導責任區內的三軍部隊執行訓練落實達成實戰化訓練的要求目標。預期的成效"},{"start":2892.042,"end":2900.585,"text":"第一點,藉高階幹部的圖上兵棋推演,檢視國軍113年聯合作戰計畫的適切性與連貫性,並共同研討創新的思維,提出戰術戰法、策進建議。第二點,將電腦輔助指揮所演練所獲得參數與結論,據修訂聯合作戰指導與行動方案,並作為後續戰力的整建、兵力結構的調整等建軍備戰規劃的方向。"},{"start":2921.906,"end":2938.32,"text":"第三點,藉時兵的演練,讓官兵熟悉戰場的環境,瞭解作戰的任務及指揮與戰鬥程序,同時磨練各指揮官任務式指揮與授權的機制,縮短決策的程序,爭取戰場主動優勢。"},{"start":2940.475,"end":2959.046,"text":"第四點,我們會中整演習重大的戰備議題及部隊操演的檢討,納入國軍明年即114年聯合作戰計畫的修訂,漢光四十一號演習的驗證重點以及未來建軍發展的規劃,持續提升防衛作戰的能力與韌性。"},{"start":2960.936,"end":2981.702,"text":"最後本次漢光演習本部秉持的是誠實的軍風坦誠面對問題確實深入檢討國軍部隊的訓練成效並提出具體可行的解決方案並達成高戰備的目標建立堅實可視的戰力確保國家安全報告完畢進行指教"},{"start":2994.639,"end":3017.895,"text":"主席、各位委員先進今天大院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會召開第29次全體委員會議並按審查馬文君委員等21人擬具《國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案》等6案"},{"start":3019.136,"end":3041.271,"text":"感謝各位委員對於國防部推動老舊眷村改建工作的關心與指導。那麼針對委員的提案內容說明如下。一、委員提案內容第三條部分,王鴻薇委員等22人及羅志強委員等24人提案修正第一項。"},{"start":3043.21,"end":3062.997,"text":"將老舊眷村定義、修正為本條例公佈施行前、興建完成且有改建必要之軍眷住宅。厲世保委員等21人、馬文君委員等21人及黃仁委員等24人提案,修正第一項。"},{"start":3064.237,"end":3071.82,"text":"將老舊眷村定義、修正為有改建必要之軍眷住宅。令王鴻薇委員等22人、賴世保委員等21人、馬文君委員等21人、黃仁委員等24人及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案修正第二項。"},{"start":3084.665,"end":3086.167,"text":"將國家安全會議及國家安全局納入核發國軍眷舍居住憑證或公文書的全責單位。"},{"start":3097.196,"end":3120.988,"text":"第五條部分,馬文君委員等21人提案,配合第五條之一令定國安會及國安局列管原眷戶的權益,於第一項增列除書規定,並將第二項及第三項著作文字的修正為本條例九十年五月三十日修正施行前。"},{"start":3122.128,"end":3139.558,"text":"第五條之一的部分馬文君委員等21人提案增訂本條規定國安會及國安局列管援軍戶享有之權益以輔助購載款為限並明定其權益承受的方式及時限。二、國防部意見"},{"start":3144.412,"end":3168.065,"text":"為解決國安會及國安局列管眷村納入改建問題本部前擬具了《國軍老舊眷村改建條例修正草案》於110年10月21日呈報行政院為本案仍有下列上代克服的諸因素分數如後一、眷改基金財務短處"},{"start":3169.966,"end":3188.999,"text":"常在困難,眷村改建《西醫本條例》第八條及第九條規定編列特別預算以國軍老舊眷村的土地及國軍不適用營地處分作為經費來源並設置眷改基金執行改建工作,期間完成52處改建基地"},{"start":3191.34,"end":3207.33,"text":"由於補貼、輔助購宅差額款及舊有捐赦處理費等至捐改基金累積短處1055億餘元令現金部分因申借不適用營地周轉金725億餘元"},{"start":3209.992,"end":3229.857,"text":"自110年起陸續歸店186億元為仍有539億餘元欠款上代繳還國庫,故現階段仍以活化收益還款為首要工作。二、無法再興建住宅社區與眷戶期待不符。"},{"start":3230.819,"end":3252.171,"text":"一、行政院101年合證修訂國軍老舊眷村改建計劃案的政策決定,國防部及其所屬機關不再興建即合適的住宅。加以近年來社會快速發展,繫增眷村改建規劃圈以無法盤點適合地點興建住宅社區,原眷戶僅可領取輔助購宅款、購置成屋。"},{"start":3258.795,"end":3270.98,"text":"以現行市場的價格,眷戶所領取之輔助購宅款是將難以購置鄰近區位相同平行的市場城屋,不符眷戶的期待。"},{"start":3271.983,"end":3295.682,"text":"三、眷戶意見分歧,契未能完成整合。上開眷村未爭取權益,眷村自治會多年來持續地向多方爭取、說明。同時,透過國安會以及國安局的溝通努力,目前確實已有部分的住戶認同已修法的方式解決眷村住戶權益問題。"},{"start":3298.143,"end":3304.848,"text":"為認同修法住戶中多數傾向期待國防部能夠提供住宅供其承購。還有部分住戶強烈反對修法並自主自救會持續進行陳情。"},{"start":3315.035,"end":3336.602,"text":"顯見現況住戶意見仍屬分歧本次修法僅能以領取輔助購載款來安置在仍有為數不少不同意見的情形下透過修法是否能夠解決問題抑或反而導致不同意見住戶採行其他陳抗手段仍存疑議"},{"start":3337.426,"end":3344.429,"text":"三、節語。國防部始終秉持照顧軍眷的立場更理解委員提案照顧眷戶的美意為本案卻有上述的困難軍代克服解決以由列管機關持續的溝通、獲取共識以謀取最適的解決方案較為合一仍請各位委員考量國家整體財政運用以及政府住宅政策調整"},{"start":3367.18,"end":3368.801,"text":"並且兼顧照顧眷戶立場,就全案通盤審慎的評估。以上報告,敬請各位委員先進參考指教。謝謝。"},{"start":3385.653,"end":3402.605,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘、非本會委員6分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請顧部長請顧部長"},{"start":3419.491,"end":3438.846,"text":"羅委員好部長好,部長,截到今年的4月份為止,我國大約有150萬名的這個後備軍人,相當於全國總人口的這個6.4%那這個國外有一個知名的軍事網站,它有公布2023年的軍事實力排行"},{"start":3439.386,"end":3450.509,"text":"我國在145國裡面綜合排名是第23可是我們的後備軍人數是全球排名第一可是我國的後備軍人從訓練、裝備跟編制等等長期以來其實都受到軍事專家的詬病"},{"start":3458.311,"end":3463.176,"text":"所以國防部才在2021年的時候推動這個全動數的這個改組而且呢在2022年的時候後備軍人叫招的這個訓練呢我們有更新了這個計畫到目前為止呢我們已經試辦了兩年然後在明年會正式來上路"},{"start":3476.688,"end":3497.969,"text":"我記得之前我有看到一份報導也就是在這個新制剛開始的時候那時候被認為是有史以來最硬的這個教召那教召第一批的這個教召員曾經受過一些媒體的這個訪問那我列出幾個例子可能要待會可能要麻煩國防部長來回答一下"},{"start":3500.692,"end":3500.812,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":3520.826,"end":3533.118,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":3545.449,"end":3563.924,"text":"這是新制的時候這是第一批的時候有一位教召員B他就說他那時候是擔任船令兵作為來講他是要練習背上這個所謂拐拐無限奠基可是他在教召訓練14天裡面一次都沒有背過"},{"start":3564.645,"end":3588.541,"text":"那有個教召員C呢他說他在教召編輯裡面他是被分配為營級的這個情報士官工作應該是幫助長官收集各種地方情報協助指揮判斷戰況可是他跟其他的教召員一樣只接受步槍兵的訓練沒有人協助他複習情報士官、情搜相關專業的訓練"},{"start":3590.302,"end":3615.873,"text":"所以是不是說這是在這個新制DP的這個教召員他們所提出來的這些意見那兩年過去了事辦了兩年對於這些剛剛我所提到的ABC教召員所提到這個問題我們有在做改進嗎?看起來我們的訓練內容是非常的不矜持跟委員報告、委員指教的我認為我也有"},{"start":3618.03,"end":3638.302,"text":"相當的認同就是說我們後備軍人的這個訓練因為從我們過去我們今年才開始實施一年期的EVE的從4個月才開到一年期的EVE那後備軍人的這個訓練的這個部分如何讓他訓練能夠扎實然後能夠"},{"start":3641.573,"end":3654.027,"text":"有效的形成站立,這個部分是我們的一個非常重大的一個挑戰。那不但只是訓練部分,那還有裝備等等。那現在我想我們會從基層幹部來"},{"start":3659.502,"end":3687.674,"text":"就是說他有一個後備戰略形成他要有一定人數的基層幹部那這個基層幹部的這個能力呢要把他變成是一個志願役然後他來帶領這些役這些過去的軍事訓練役的這個人那這樣子才能夠形成一個有效的戰力那所以從基層幹部能力的補時這一點就開始要做起那訓練的這一個部分呢確實我想從一開始"},{"start":3689.315,"end":3705.641,"text":"展開這個新式的教召確實還是有一些問題存在,但是我們不斷地去改進這個新式教召的這個內容,那將這個新式教召的內容把它從這個也就是說讓它"},{"start":3706.781,"end":3725.299,"text":"不管是在實彈的這個射擊上面,還有各種的這個核武實彈化訓練要求的射擊的姿勢、姿態,然後戰鬥的這個射擊方式,那一直到這個野外來輸贏等等,我們現在不斷地在加強,所以"},{"start":3726.36,"end":3739.411,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":3748.398,"end":3759.003,"text":"候備軍人的裝備也列為優先建軍內容項目之一。希望透過這三個部分,我們希望能夠"},{"start":3761.586,"end":3786.727,"text":"來形成一個有戰鬥力的一個後備的部隊。這是我們現在光復屬於一個重要的政策項目。是。部長剛才你提到這個裝備。不單裝備還有武器。像過去我們在叫招的時候我們是單位之間互相借用這個武器跟裝備。也就是說我們後備單位是沒有自己的武器跟裝備。這情況有改善嗎?請問。"},{"start":3789.064,"end":3815.498,"text":"裝備現代的籌貨列為我們現在這個近來5年建軍的這個重要的項目之一,我們把它都優序把它往前排。那將後備的這個裝備,當然包括您講的武器這個部分,要把它列入這個優先籌貨。所以到目前為止的話,這部分還是在互相各單位互相在借用當中,所以還沒有完備嗎?是不是?部長的意思是這樣子,我們會未來會改進的意思嗎?"},{"start":3817.179,"end":3823.719,"text":"必須誠實地講就是說我們要快速地來加強那現在還有很多可以改進的空間"},{"start":3824.554,"end":3848.861,"text":"OK 好 謝謝部長所以我們現在就要找我們所採取的就是就地動員、就地編制、就地訓練、就地守備的這個方式那這部分我們當然是非常的這個肯定那當然我們動員署其中成立最主要有一個很重要的這個目標就是長後合一那我們有做到長後合一嗎我們的長輩軍人跟後輩軍人我們有曾經有過協同作戰的這個演習嗎有嗎請問"},{"start":3853.522,"end":3858.948,"text":"這是我們的目標之一,我們有做到嗎?就是在漢光的時候我們有納入,那平常訓練的時候、平常教招的時候是沒有的嗎?"},{"start":3866.072,"end":3886.88,"text":"平常叫召的時候剛剛您講的就是我們現在拉到那個縣地去那讓他去熟悉這戰場的環境然後讓他了解然後來進行他熟悉他的戰鬥位置那這樣子的方式來進行至少就叫召了14天是沒有辦法"},{"start":3887.6,"end":3899.646,"text":"就跟像漢光演習這樣子來進行,但我們就會到他的現地的位置,讓他去熟悉他應該要有的守備位置這樣子。"},{"start":3900.543,"end":3921.264,"text":"部長我有給給一個建議喔像新加坡其實新加坡跟台灣非常的這個類似他也有戰備軍人的這個回訊那之前我有看過這個韓剛明少將他有提到就是說雖然新加坡他一樣也是14天的這個他們叫回訊我們叫叫招他們叫回訊他們說這些叫招員呢"},{"start":3921.584,"end":3922.766,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":3935.687,"end":3959.954,"text":"跟委員報告新加坡這個部分我跟新加坡相關的人已經有談過好多次了他們最重要的就是說他們18歲當兵的時候他們把他形成一組的人力之後他們就會從中拔走那個幹部然後從中拔走幹部之後他們就這一組會用一個他們自己的一個比如說LINE或者是一個社群的平台來聯絡"},{"start":3961.114,"end":3977.679,"text":"那所以他們會隨時可以進行動員然後這一些小組的幹部就會通知這些人馬上去報導他有時候光報導但是不實施教召有時候報導以後把衣服穿好然後就回家有時候是報導以後再加實驗的訓練他用各種的方式來進行這樣的動員演練這確實是值得我們學習的地方"},{"start":3983.921,"end":4010.385,"text":"因為我有看過他相關的這個報導我是覺得確實部長您所講的他的新加坡經驗真的是很值得我們去學習像他也擔心馬來西亞他也擔心印尼他周邊也有很多的這個強國所以他們的全民的這方面的這個意識這防疫的意識是非常強的這國家意識也是非常的強而且他們這個在教招的時候不是單純就只有自己在"},{"start":4011.505,"end":4039.112,"text":"在做這個所謂訓練,就是教召員的訓練,他們可能還會結合民間。好像全國都有這樣子的一個想法,就是保家衛國的這個想法。我在想說這個部分,新加坡經驗很值得我們去了解跟學習。好,那時間到了以上,謝謝。是,謝謝,謝謝雯子。我們,因為新加坡它地方比較小啦,這一點,但是我們要學習它的這個方法論是應該的,是。"},{"start":4045.235,"end":4048.276,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢。有請顧部長及梅總長。請顧部長還有梅總長。"},{"start":4072.523,"end":4093.318,"text":"今天發生了一個震驚全國的擔憂的一件事今天早上清晨的五點有四艘的中共海警我們的海警船艦再度的傳入我們金門境縣治水域"},{"start":4094.697,"end":4121.94,"text":"這個就是在之前我們淡水衝撞了我們的淡水海域然後今天又發生了這樣的一個狀況請問一下這一次的金門的這個金門府僅5海里只有5海里這是史上最近的一個海裡衝撞了我們的這個金門近線的水域"},{"start":4123.373,"end":4139.847,"text":"部長你待會表達一下今天中共步步的每一步都逼近了都有突破性的逼近到我們的海域我們要如何防範待會總長你也要回答一下請回答"},{"start":4141.025,"end":4161.862,"text":"跟委員報告中國的海警確實在金門的海域現在實施一個比較我們講說要建立一個否定競選是隨意的一個新常態的一個作為所以他確實是會每一天他會派遣這個海警船"},{"start":4162.142,"end":4164.423,"text":"委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":4182.171,"end":4183.972,"text":"國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4207.548,"end":4228.62,"text":"謝委員有關在國軍的部分其實就以外島我們是同島民命其實不管是國軍或者說是海巡其實大家都是在這樣子的一個態度上面相互的支援然後也把這些的情資去做分享所以其實在整個的應處上面"},{"start":4229.6,"end":4249.473,"text":"不管是海巡跟國軍的外島的指揮部其實都非常的綿密而且相互的會有實施備援好因為現在每一次都有突破性的步步的逼近在到我們的海域的進水域這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":4251.204,"end":4273.224,"text":"這不是一個平常在過去裡面所發生的可是今年會多次的會發生而且還會再發生你相不相信那我們國軍如何的去應對因應因為我們反觀一下目前中共在菲律賓的一個海這個南海發生的這個嚴重的衝突"},{"start":4275.266,"end":4293.772,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":4304.229,"end":4324.551,"text":"你要回答?跟委員報告,我想如果他現在因為不是軍用的艦艇進入了禁線式水域,如果由軍用的艦艇進入禁線式水域,我們就一定會負責來將這個越界進入禁線式水域來依照這個土豪商場組織規定來加以處理。"},{"start":4325.752,"end":4346.507,"text":"那現在這個是屬於海警的這個傳播,那這個有海軍來負責海域的執法。那我們互相會建立剛剛提到的我們支援的這個機制,然後互相通報,然後來協助監控跟來驅離這些廣播驅離來這些禁案的。"},{"start":4346.647,"end":4347.787,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":4365.874,"end":4379.725,"text":"四十號演習是一個非常特殊具有提振國軍的士氣。今天我們要講的為什麼在本島的漢光演習四十號的演習當中將不採取實彈"},{"start":4383.047,"end":4403.563,"text":"原因是什麼?那另外就是在這一次演習有許多變革,包含本島實兵不實彈加上外島實兵實彈,取消由總統親自視導的大型的火力展示項目,取消假想敵,去中心化執管。"},{"start":4404.644,"end":4415.593,"text":"強化夜間信念等並將疫情下達狀況實時實地驗證不經你已安全考量等因素,為何?"},{"start":4417.417,"end":4442.914,"text":"委員主一跟您做一個回覆委員剛才有特別提到的就是實彈的部分我們這一次在外島是有實彈的射擊在本島我們沒有安排實彈的射擊跟委員做一個說明的因為我們這一次就是讓我們的這些的聯兵旅單位他的一個戰術層級的單位他依照我們所給予的想定還有臨機的狀況他要經過判斷之後去行動"},{"start":4446.897,"end":4461.286,"text":"所以這個時機點他會到什麼的地點雖然我們是一個計畫的方式來去引動他但是可能在任何的時段如果我們下達在沒有去做這些的這個這個火炮安全管制的話"},{"start":4462.026,"end":4476.64,"text":"其實我們也不希望說他這樣子臨機的方式引起了相關的這些的一些的安全的事務所以我們在本島的規劃還是以他去熟悉他的作戰環境以及去熟悉他的聯合作戰計劃"},{"start":4478.542,"end":4494.841,"text":"然後因為我們聯合作戰計畫做了蠻多的一些調整所以我們今年的訓練目標是希望他們能夠熟忍他們的作戰計畫所以我們按照這樣子的規劃第二個剛委員也有提到去中心化的去中心化確實是我們今年的一個非常重要的一個訓練目標"},{"start":4496.323,"end":4518.496,"text":"去中心化大概有五個面向。第一個,各級的指揮官要非常清楚他的任務。第二個,我們要給這些指揮官充分的授權。第三個,我們要給他一個非常清楚的責任區。第四個,我們也要給他一個非常周延、詳盡的一個交戰規則。最後,他要有獨立作戰的能力。"},{"start":4519.156,"end":4540.271,"text":"所以我們去中心化是朝向這個方向。所以我們今年的訓練所有的規劃就是為了達到我們的訓練目標而設計的相關的漢光演習的一個實兵的一個訓練。現在很多國人產生一個質疑的原因就是每一次的漢光的演練的演習都會有實彈。"},{"start":4542.092,"end":4560.394,"text":"今天為什麼以不時但我作為你們現在的漢光四十演習的目的現在國人產生了質疑也產生對國家沒有信心所以這一點你必須要說明時但每一次的演習都是時但演練"},{"start":4561.335,"end":4576.681,"text":"這是一個我們漢光演習對整個具有特殊性的意義所以這個部分你再詳細的說明好不好跟委員做一個說明其實國軍在年度的訓練有分成不同的層級我們的實彈的相關的訓練其實並沒有荒廢"},{"start":4581.263,"end":4603.112,"text":"我們在每一個階段的射擊包括在屏東的我們的聯訓基地有實彈射擊我們年度也有安排相關的精準飛彈的射擊我們甚至現在把精準飛彈射擊都調整成為跟他的戰術位置能夠相結合包括海軍跟空軍其實我們一直不斷的在這些的作為上面去精進"},{"start":4604.452,"end":4628.726,"text":"所以今年我還是跟委員做報告的就是說今年我們的訓練目標其實漢光演習著重的第一個你要先設定你的訓練目標你今年的目標是什麼然後你這一次實兵的操演訓練的對象又是以戰術單位為主所以我們因為聯合作戰計畫因為敵情的威脅我們改變了非常多我們一定要讓他進入熟悉計畫因為實驗醫術"},{"start":4631.067,"end":4645.275,"text":"另外我要跟部長講一下我們美國向我們釋出彈丸刀無人機是不是有採購的必要性那目前來講的話我們本來中科院就已經研發對峙"},{"start":4646.896,"end":4673.405,"text":"跟我們這個美國所要售出的3.6億的美元、彈簧刀300型及Adduce 600MV及這個600型的兩款自殺式的攻擊無人機、國防、國防部是否有將要採購。那我們另外就是國防的兩型飛彈現況我們中科院國照就已經可以對峙跟這些"},{"start":4674.985,"end":4701.63,"text":"兩款的這一些美國的方式都有平衡型的一個對抗怎麼會還要再採購這個付這個3.6億的美元我先跟委員報告齁剛剛您提到那個漢光的實彈齁我們只是取消那種叫漢光展示性的這種但是我們年度的這種實彈的訓練沒有少反而增加這個部分要跟各位委員報告台灣大陸的部分呢我們是採"},{"start":4703.592,"end":4705.515,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":4721.736,"end":4738.079,"text":"這一次的因為行政審查的程序加速了以後讓我們也能夠快速的取得所以我們是兩個雙重的方式都來併進我們中科院已經目前來講巡飛彈一行中科院已量產"},{"start":4738.98,"end":4756.345,"text":"而由海軍陸戰隊採購了300枚今年交金50枚明年交金250枚都已經有這樣的能量跟能力來跟平行我們的堂皇道的三百行所以第二個是"},{"start":4758.266,"end":4772.478,"text":"尋飛彈的二型中科院已在去年的航太首度公開備受關注而且我們在中科院也得到了獲得年度的模範團隊所以這個我們絕對有這個能力為什麼還要再準備採購花3.6億的經過費用來買這個美國的所謂的這個"},{"start":4787.176,"end":4787.961,"text":"彈丸刀三倍刑"},{"start":4789.81,"end":4816.347,"text":"主席再給我幾秒鐘市委員你好剛才陳如委員所講的中科院第二期六百目前還在研發階段今年會完成所有的研發測評明年預劃把新人做好之後會向軍總展示就如陳如剛剛部長講的其實我們那個武器系統由研發跟外交來並行的方式來走中科院也沒有放棄在研發持續的"},{"start":4816.547,"end":4840.726,"text":"所以中科院已經有這個能力所以沒有必要再跟美國來採購彈簧刀三百型我們今天我們要刀錢要發在刀口上中科院既然有能力我們應該以中科院為主不要仰賴美國這一些武器既然都可以平行的對抗為什麼還要再採購"},{"start":4841.226,"end":4856.593,"text":"外務委員陸軍、參謀長這邊向您補充報告。第一個,我們向美採購的它是一個成熟而且是在戰場上有實戰經驗的一個成熟的裝備。第二個,不管是彈簧刀300或是Artis600或是中科院所研發的巡飛彈,因為我們的敵情的目標種類不同。"},{"start":4860.174,"end":4872.207,"text":"那我們會依據不同的目標然後有多重的這個符合戰術的用心。我們在審慎的考量好不好在審慎的考量不要輕易的來這樣子來做一個決定。好以上。謝謝。接下來請陳永康委員上台質詢。"},{"start":4894.091,"end":4910.14,"text":"主席好因為昨天下午在大院質詢的時候已經邀請這個院長跟部長已經質詢過那麼今天很多的細節是提供參謀本部做一個參考所以我這邊請參謀總長梅上將請梅總長"},{"start":4920.289,"end":4944.741,"text":"總統好過去我們同事多年互動學習累積經驗個人一直很珍惜那段過去留下來的記憶今天看您承受這麼大的擔當跟責任在這邊以總長在軍事的指揮權責所以我今天的不是質詢理論上我做出是建言不涉及到你的指揮管制"},{"start":4945.759,"end":4946.66,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":4967.313,"end":4979.325,"text":"議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":4982.233,"end":5002.478,"text":"那麼今天這麼多年來了因為就中間就失去在這個過去ROE上面的研析那麼過去很多的同仁沿用一個字叫SOP我想總長了解這是標準作業程序是行政流程的這個責任擔當但是從上到下一個版本那ROE就有不同了"},{"start":5003.96,"end":5010.651,"text":"這張圖其實在您剛才回答前任委員前面講的很多觀念已經講進去了,這邊僅供參考。"},{"start":5014.594,"end":5040.035,"text":"下面我們在這邊問政對國軍作建言的時候我們通常是目的方法、手段、誓言做法、建議那麼我們這邊提供一個建議要培育國軍熟人戰爭法、武裝衝突法跟國際人道等法務人員藉由常態化戰場的訓練官兵將交戰或是接戰準則深植人心我這邊在這邊向各位報告這個是2019年"},{"start":5042.637,"end":5053.585,"text":"二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王鴻薇等22人、委員王�"},{"start":5066.445,"end":5088.324,"text":"那這一次您提到的要去中心化我們在反想定裡面都有授權就是剛剛您講的基層我們設定了目標方法手段以及建議現在建議裡面事項就產生就是當我們在做作戰區的時候有一個想定的前提第一個就是所有中華電信的中繼台通通失效"},{"start":5089.065,"end":5104.556,"text":"要靠國軍的微波載台以及目前我們的衛星但是中興二號快到期中興五號的功能還有待要展示、驗證那低軌衛星尤其是跟OneWeb簽的合約我強烈建議"},{"start":5105.256,"end":5124.968,"text":"要跟這個所謂速發部跟NCC強調國軍需要的通訊頻段頻寬這個要及早定義而不是等事件發生了再做討論所以我們目的是要強化戰場的指揮作業能力那這種條件下就是光纖是不是仍然有效國軍的機動通訊車數量足不足"},{"start":5127.99,"end":5142.843,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":5156.57,"end":5173.776,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王�"},{"start":5184.384,"end":5208.279,"text":"無人機在俄烏戰爭中大家看到烏克蘭跟俄國相互用無人機而且大部分用大漿可是因為幅員廣大這個鄉鎮之間距離30公里城鎮之間100公里所以在這個連接的道路上不是烏軍就是俄軍看到就打誤擊的機率很低但是到了以哈戰爭中間無人機的使用"},{"start":5209.144,"end":5220.651,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王�"},{"start":5227.134,"end":5239.366,"text":"我曾經跟中東的美軍指揮官第五屆的司令開會提出他們特別強調在這個人在這個鏈路中間in the loop on the loop還有完全授權out of loop這個要及早定義"},{"start":5241.53,"end":5266.241,"text":"那我們來看一下這個北斗系統北斗是雙向指管他現在已經所有他的解放軍的車輛單兵甚至到排級都可以手機接受但是我們還沒到這個位未來的低軌衛星可能是一個重要的一個使用工具但是中國大陸現在已經在搶軌道他先向國際衛星聯盟登記了未來短期內10年內要160個軌道平面1萬顆衛星"},{"start":5271.035,"end":5291.393,"text":"那麼在俄烏戰爭中間,美方啊,這個Starlink協助它是46000個點那每一個點就是一個接收站,但周圍的人手機就要靠過去一個月要800萬美金所以我們這個要有它的好處,就要有備援的鈔票這個要規劃進去,這個圖請做參考"},{"start":5296.329,"end":5314.708,"text":"中國大陸這個火箭軍的他也考慮到他可能被北斗會被干擾掉或者地面控制站破壞於是他利用八重八橫的光纖再配合無人機的中繼那這個就是將來我們可以做參考local不管用伏身器用無人機做中繼通訊是一個選項"},{"start":5318.117,"end":5344.723,"text":"那反響定就是對方這個是去年8月4號的投擔軌跡再加上他的很可能我們地面通訊基礎設施可能到時候功能可能就不完整甚至部分功能就沒有了那這個時候在我們的運用規劃就剛剛您講的權責下售、任務了解、授權、責任承擔這個都是在ROE裡面會defend清楚了但是我們還是需要由中央指揮的一個備援模式要能夠掌握"},{"start":5347.946,"end":5366.638,"text":"這張圖昨天展示過了就是要模擬彈道那希望在解釋的時候對國人、貴國軍的有個瞭解這張圖我特別來解釋利劍演習就是這個2024利劍2024A的利劍總長請看這上面這個是台灣的防空識別區的圖這邊有四個在海峽中線以東空軍有四個訓練空域"},{"start":5376.667,"end":5393.936,"text":"但是我們國防部做了簡報的這個圖就是講我們把中共拒止在24里外並不是用他的圖可是這個圖上面只有三個訓練空隱我跟你講這張圖是舊圖GNC的這個老版本我建議圖不只是電子化"},{"start":5394.736,"end":5422.376,"text":"要更新版本有些是要從國外買過來有些是請我們自己的圖那這個就是套上去在這個同一個時間我們要顯示到就是說不只是中共演習或者我們漢光演習在周遭下面圖看海上的動態看民航機的動態這個要全天限制你看他的商船民航機有沒有受到影響做你一個判斷的客觀參考像這個是民航圖"},{"start":5424.129,"end":5441.025,"text":"眾縣以東市4個訓練空域,套上這是今天早上中共干擾的,就是說共同圖像,雖然是樹化的圖,但是要經過GIS校正,重複套疊,對長官來講,可以有一個更客觀的判斷方法。"},{"start":5441.937,"end":5454.165,"text":"議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2議員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員"},{"start":5474.793,"end":5500.502,"text":"所以這個海灘過去的紅色現在都不存在即便是少數的紅色它的規模也只能容納迎擊的登陸所以你在演練假設這個情境發生部隊上來城鎮作戰如何做這個都是反想定這個每一個想定都很重要不是會不會發生而是想定跟想定中間的時間的關聯性要把它做出來像這個圖是一個示意台灣北部"},{"start":5502.919,"end":5531.134,"text":"這裏是所有的海堤工程建設工程根本已經沒有一個大規模的登機了所以左邊的這個是外航的想定這是外面的報告要把這些圖套上衛星圖套上我們現在作案圖那你的作戰想定就比較合理化那甚至在對面這個導彈的攻擊模擬那最後就是說我們把一個整個的想定過程排解出來"},{"start":5532.536,"end":5560.996,"text":"紅軍有紅軍的做法藍軍難做雖然紅軍沒有實兵但是你演練的科目並不代表每個科目多要但是互動關係找出來在這個同時要了解社會的堅韌性就是當時是不是已經比方講從D隊到D加3完全民間是斷水斷電國軍在想定過程中間要結合社會堅韌性如果社會堅韌性斷水斷電而只有國軍演練這個就脫鉤了以上提供總長做參考"},{"start":5562.137,"end":5588.331,"text":"總長有沒有什麼回應?委員我們今年其實就是朝向的就是不管您剛才提到的這些的想定然後第二個聯動性還有所謂的這些的連續其實我們會有這些的改變其實就是讓國軍能夠突破能夠進步更結合實戰那您剛才所提供的這些資訊我們都會很好的去做一個分析納入我們非常重要的一個資訊的參考謝謝您提供的這些資訊"},{"start":5595.518,"end":5598.923,"text":"在用。是。"},{"start":5601.939,"end":5604.161,"text":"是,了解,是,是,謝謝委員。"},{"start":5636.985,"end":5638.566,"text":"接下來請黃國昌委員上台質詢。黃國昌委員"},{"start":5661.924,"end":5682.786,"text":"部長,在2017年的時候,立法院因為使用了中國製的太陽能力變氣,它叫做Inverter,基本上是直流電轉換成交流電的一個太陽光電模組當中必備的部分。那裡面幾乎都有內嵌monitor unit,也就是遠端,可以看它發電的數量。"},{"start":5684.728,"end":5703.988,"text":"這件事情後來被披露了以後後來被披露了以後我們執政黨的立委參與議委跟前立委陳柏惟做了一個非常重要的記者會說禁用中國的逆變器要不然會有嚴重的紅色危機"},{"start":5705.909,"end":5728.33,"text":"當目前為止,國防部是不是有個清楚的政策立場在國防部重要的軍事要塞所使用的光電或者是逆變器禁用中國製的產品?我們本部在區議員署裡面特別有鎮定不得使用陸製品的一個條文這個是統一的,在每一份企業裡面都有這樣的規定嗎?是"},{"start":5731.155,"end":5755.656,"text":"因為我接到檢舉我們國家注資30億我們的國發會跟耀華玻璃是第一大股東號稱綠能國家隊的聯合戰神他們承接了國防部非常多光電招租的案子也就是用我們國防部包括很多軍事要塞的土地、屋頂做太陽能光電那基本上"},{"start":5757.045,"end":5774.552,"text":"推動再生能源我們都支持但是在我們的軍事要塞裡面去做太陽光電的模組這件事情事實是會用到中國製的產品有沒有國安危機這件事情就變得很重要因為這個事不是今天才發生"},{"start":5775.922,"end":5799.978,"text":"但我接到的檢舉是說我們在陸軍蘭陽地區的指揮部光電的標出案裡面得標的就是我們綠能國家隊的子公司叫做永良公司那這家公司呢當初在競標的時候說他要承諾使用國內領導品牌的變流器結果沒想到"},{"start":5801.348,"end":5808.905,"text":"去跟國防部爭取標案的時候說一套實際做的是另外一套實際做的是哪一套"},{"start":5811.124,"end":5835.704,"text":"如同剛剛部長所說的在租人契約書裡面已經白紙黑字寫不可以使用暴露地區的產品但我接到的檢舉是在蘭陽地區的指揮部裡面所有用的逆變器都是中國製的產品那因為這個檢舉很嚴重所以我昨天特別跑去蘭陽指揮部那邊去現看"},{"start":5836.565,"end":5862.645,"text":"那也非常感謝我們南洋指揮部的弟兄很辛苦昨天太陽很大陪我在那邊看結果看到的現在部長啊您看到的就是所謂的逆變器旁邊貼的貼紙旁邊貼的貼紙大剌剌的就寫的Made in China大剌剌的就寫的Made in China這個讓我們非常的困惑非常的狐疑是"},{"start":5863.625,"end":5878.917,"text":"當初這個東西在裝的時候契約書已經載明了不可以做這件事情他們還是無視於國防部相關的規定甚至是契約上面的要求做了這件事情而且毫不避諱的"},{"start":5879.938,"end":5897.818,"text":"就在產品上面的貼紙就寫了Made in China這件事情我昨天去南洋指揮部玩了以後我有跟現場主持會議的指揮官說麻煩這件事情請他昨天回去的時候要跟部裡邊報告部長有沒有收到這樣的訊息"},{"start":5899.089,"end":5925.54,"text":"跟委員報告有,我們有,就我現在得到的訊息就是說,這一個逆變企業或者變流企業,它是德國一個叫SMA的公司品牌,但是是在大陸組裝的。那麼現在確認它有,我也使用的這一個大概是44個。那我們會一月要求陳商要在一個月內將這些錄製品拆除,更換符合這個契約的這個規範的一個產品。"},{"start":5928.441,"end":5935.906,"text":"這就是我今天把這件事情在質詢的時候請部長注意因為對於後續的處理這件事情"},{"start":5937.157,"end":5958.098,"text":"這家廠商是惡劣至極啊明明就知道不可以這樣做他還是決定這樣做但我們如果今天國防部在主張權力的時候只是把這個置義萬為胡作非為的廠商只是叫他更換完部長你覺得對這個廠商會有任何嚇阻的效力嗎"},{"start":5960.518,"end":5980.195,"text":"我們會按照那個合約條款的這個內容,那我到現在為止沒有清楚的看到合約條款的內容。那我們一方面就它這個要改進,那我們也會清查有沒有裂案的這個情形,有類似案件的這些情形,我們都會來全面的清查。"},{"start":5981.209,"end":6009.534,"text":"因為部長是非常優秀的法律人特別拜託部長回去看我們國防部的契約因為如果在我們國防部的契約裡面對於這種無視國防部的政策無視契約條款根本置義萬為的廠商我們如果定的契約法律效果只是被抓到了以後換回來就好了我必須要說不會有任何嚇阻的效果"},{"start":6010.074,"end":6028.741,"text":"以後他就繼續這樣幹因為如同剛剛部長所點出來的如同剛剛部長所點出來的這家廠商他是不是被欺騙所以才去用中國的逆變器不是他從頭到尾就知道他用的是中國的逆變器而且用的範圍"},{"start":6030.27,"end":6048.131,"text":"我再跟部長報告一下用的範圍恐怕不是只有南洋指揮部因為到目前為止我所收集到的資訊包括了我們在高雄的海軍艦隊指揮部包括了國防大學包括了三軍總醫院松山分區"},{"start":6049.452,"end":6078.023,"text":"這家廠商非常厲害國防部非常多的隱屈全部都有他們的案子他們可以這樣置義妄為無視規定如果我們最後國防部所謂的依照契約辦理只是要求他換過來的話恐怕是沒有辦法真正的二組未來有類似不肖的廠商一樣化葫蘆反正我就先用被抓到了以後再換回來就好了"},{"start":6078.743,"end":6091.342,"text":"部長是不是可以承諾嚴肅的檢討目前契約的規範是不是只能夠要求他換還是應該要採取更嚴厲追溯法律責任的行動"},{"start":6092.627,"end":6116.022,"text":"我們會來檢視相關合約的這個整個內容有沒有類似有一些相關的這個就是說我們要和約定的相關的內容來處理那另外我們也會全面清查國軍所有的這些太陽光電的這個設置營區是不是有使用錄製品的設備部長最後一點提醒就好了因為這個東西是驗收通過的"},{"start":6117.023,"end":6144.101,"text":"今年二月喔驗收通過的我昨天在現場的時候其實我很困惑因為我一看到那個機身旁邊的貼紙就寫Made in China我的困惑在於說人家就已經大剌剌的也不遮掩就是Made in China我們驗收怎麼會通過但請部長不要誤會我的意思我沒有意思要去追究我們蘭陽指揮部弟兄他們的責任因為我知道"},{"start":6145.063,"end":6160.359,"text":"他們很辛苦光電這些產品未必也是他們所熟悉的但是是不是在驗收的SOP上少了關鍵的一環例如說要求那個廠商出具原產地的證明"},{"start":6161.601,"end":6188.52,"text":"沒有出具這個東西的話驗收不會通過因為我相信如果當初驗收的SOP有這個要求的話應該不會出現這麼離譜的狀況是不是可以請驗收的程序一併檢討未來不要讓這個不肖的廠商有上下棘手的空間我們會一併來檢討這個委員所指教的這樣子的一個就是說有這樣的要求我們會來一併納入檢討"},{"start":6190.052,"end":6191.994,"text":"主席有請顧部長。請顧部長"},{"start":6222.321,"end":6245.397,"text":"是林委員好部長好我想今天還有非常多的媒體在場您剛進來的時候很多媒體都在針對好像今天有評論報導講說您來委員會備詢然後連參謀總長都一起來了所以說您這個這樣的動作遭受到質疑不過本席看了一下今天其實我們的討論事項的議程就是國防部長率領參謀總長來報告漢光四十號演習嗎"},{"start":6249.5,"end":6265.877,"text":"我們也都知道這個國會擴權法案目前復議也失敗了所以是在釋憲當中那麼這是主席所排定的這個議程所以您真的覺得這個議程當中有不適合但是不好意思說嗎還是說其實您覺得是OK的"},{"start":6266.237,"end":6281.581,"text":"因為我覺得既然這是議程當中那麼主席會議也要求的話您也就必須要率領這個參謀總長來出席嘛那麼您個人怎麼來看這個題目因為我感覺上覺得這個報導從頭到尾都沒有提到一個關鍵就是這樣子如果沒到參謀總長來參謀總長可能藐視國會啊"},{"start":6284.967,"end":6302.433,"text":"跟委員報告第一個應該要跟國會來接受到國會來接受質詢的基本上應該還是國防部部長那但是大法官四十四六一號解釋確實有一個所謂列席備詢的一個規定那他就是在解釋參謀總長有沒有"},{"start":6303.613,"end":6324.226,"text":"列席備詢的義務。我查了461號解釋,它確實有這樣子的一個列席備詢的一個義務存在。但是當然就涉及國防機密的事項,當然就可以不回答。當然我也是如此,就涉及到國家安全的這些機密的這個"},{"start":6326.927,"end":6345.545,"text":"事項我們當然都不能夠在這個公開的場合加以回答那所以基於這樣的一個考量那又是涉及到漢光那因為漢光進入實兵驗證之後呢這一個統裁部是由這個參謀總長來負責所以我想我們認為那就就這個主題來講那就請參謀總長來列席備詢"},{"start":6349.195,"end":6366.847,"text":"好,謝謝部長清楚的說明因為我想這個有的時候這個因果關係還是要搞清楚如果說是立法院的要求那麼對於國防委員會的尊重我相信部長也會依照這個方式來進行溝通那麼我也不希望說好像質詢還沒有開始但是這個參謀總長是不是要來然後就完全的"},{"start":6371.75,"end":6373.451,"text":"規劃情形：一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告 «漢光四十號演習»規劃情形：一、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6388.359,"end":6404.917,"text":"那麼本席對於這個你們今天在報告當中特別提到的是接下來會以就是不必要的一種所謂的展示性的這個演習的部分我們就把它盡量的避免或減少但是我想部長你也知道如果以俄烏戰爭的發展連中共的共軍將領都說接下來"},{"start":6409.262,"end":6414.304,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6431.355,"end":6451.71,"text":"這一次有特別將這個認知戰的部分給納入進來那因為認知戰的部分我們現在如果要進一步講是應該講說是一個戰略溝通的機制也就是說他要對內展現國防的防衛作戰力量來建立全民的信心那對外"},{"start":6452.41,"end":6471.343,"text":"也要傳達我國建立防衛的決心那爭取國際社會的關注跟支持那對敵要想辦法削弱他們的這個對台動武的決心瓦解敵軍的戰鬥的意志這些等等都會都是在我們這一次這一個征戰"},{"start":6472.628,"end":6477.109,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24"},{"start":6500.523,"end":6501.504,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6522.804,"end":6538.003,"text":"兩岸之間的金融的交流也是非常頻繁的那麼我想要就教部長的就是過去因為您曾經也擔過金管會的主委啦所以我會拿這一題來講的原因是因為金融業的部分必須要跟央行"},{"start":6538.664,"end":6547.515,"text":"跟金管會有做一些溝通跟交流過去我一再提醒的是我在財政委員會要求央行或金管會做這個部分的時候他們的回應當然都是說他們有一些內部的演練跟操練但是如果以二屋戰爭來講為什麼"},{"start":6554.304,"end":6568.22,"text":"在俄烏戰爭底下銀行可以奇蹟似的可以生還系統可以如期的運作那就是他們在2021年底知道俄羅斯有意圖入侵的時候就採取了一些措施包括烏克蘭的央行跟銀行業都有展開過壓力測試所以我在這裡要提醒的是部長有沒有可能考慮"},{"start":6574.767,"end":6575.287,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6598.065,"end":6609.535,"text":"現在的作戰恐怕不是只是我們看到的這些槍、炮、彈藥實體型的傷害式的作戰金融的傷害其實可能更無形而且更需要關注"},{"start":6610.34,"end":6628.797,"text":"跟委員報告,因為我在國安會待過,那這一個部分我們在國安會的時候,那就這個相關的涉及到,特別是涉及到全社會防衛任性的這一塊,那我們將各種"},{"start":6630.552,"end":6635.499,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6649.636,"end":6674.831,"text":"也在做相關的一些兵推要做相關的兵推然後另外也要加強他們的金融相關的韌性就我的理解是如此那至於他這個整個部分要不要納入漢光的這個部分因為我們現在有這個明安、萬安、同心、志強這個部分那還有其他的這個整個的部分在屬於這個權動署他們所規劃的所"},{"start":6679.053,"end":6695.348,"text":"不說規劃,他們是作為一個秘書單位,現在總統也成立說要成立全民社會防衛的委員會,那相關的這樣子的"},{"start":6700.714,"end":6721.429,"text":"全社會防衛的這個韌性或者國家韌性的建構是非常重要的一環那我想哪一些部分可以納入到這個漢光的兵推的作為一個演練的一個部分呢這個部分可能我們還要做跨部會的一個協調特別如果涉及到"},{"start":6722.41,"end":6739.489,"text":"國安層級的那可能要由國安會那甚至是跟行政院那邊要做一些協調那本部的立場應該是站在要配應該來配合來實施說這樣子的一個演練"},{"start":6740.609,"end":6761.661,"text":"好我想因為以部長的經歷啦從軍管會到國安會再到現在的這個國防部當中本席會在這裡提出建議跟建言就是很多的戰爭的一開始恐怕現在不會是第一顆炸彈可能會是第一個錯假訊息倒是我就像您所說的剛剛我特別提醒的金融漢光演習從金融系統"},{"start":6763.802,"end":6789.553,"text":"的謠言或者是金融系統的損壞造成社會的動盪就如同每一次我們漢光演習只要演習完之後中共都會幫我們免費出一些認知戰的假想啦比如說會講說漢光演習之後蔡英文就要落跑了啦又或者是說像這一次漢光演習之前就開始放消息說啊這個有內部消息舉出要取消什麼紅金時兵演練啊然後會有一些這個冒充軍職的假訊息出來啊"},{"start":6792.634,"end":6795.097,"text":"那麼所以說對於漢光演習來講本席在這裡會比較提醒的就是認知戰的補強包括有沒有第一時間有成立這種所謂錯假訊息的反制的機構那這個部分剛剛其實部長已經有回應了"},{"start":6809.372,"end":6831.303,"text":"那在最後的質詢的時間我只是提醒部長這裡是不是可以把包括金融的面、網路面跟科技面就如您所說的可能還要更高層級來做一個大規模的開會跟演練那麼相關的如果有進度跟報告的話是不是可以來私下跟我們委員會或者是相關的一個部分有一些進展讓我們知道"},{"start":6832.062,"end":6853.974,"text":"就漢光的演習在軍事面這一塊要不要再擴大到全社會防衛是一個可以討論的啦但是這不是國防部應該一個部會可以做成決定的應該還要跨部會來做相關的檢討我想我從國安會出身我理解這個部分的重要性"},{"start":6855.235,"end":6856.256,"text":"接下來請王定宇召委上台諮詢。"},{"start":6886.788,"end":6889.315,"text":"好,謝謝主席,麻煩參謀總長梅教授上將請梅總長"},{"start":6896.451,"end":6917.307,"text":"委員好,好久不見了。辛苦了。很高興看到你來到我們委員會。當然按照憲法,有些問題你可以回答,有些問題你不能回答。所以我們待會就教育總長,如果你認為不適合回答的,你就直接講,沒有關係。我們這次漢光演習,其實有幾個重點,包含時時就是,"},{"start":6918.268,"end":6919.489,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":6946.531,"end":6972.293,"text":"那我們要怎麼去驗證這個東西我第一個要請教就是要各單位獨立作戰那每個單位都要熟悉ROE嘛我們的接戰規則否則我不曉得接戰規則我又找不到長官請示我很怕這個狀況所以才要去中心化所以本席請教我們總長第一個問題就是我們現在設定的最小的接戰單位"},{"start":6973.939,"end":6998.641,"text":"也就是要熟悉能夠下命令根據ROE做出指令的你們現在設定是到多少?是到班牌聯那陸海空軍那有另外的一個單位請教一下總長以地面部隊來跟委員做一個說明如果說是一個小部隊的特戰編組他也可以依照我們原來所設定可以給予他的任務特戰編組有時候是一個Squad而已是的"},{"start":6999.585,"end":7016.6,"text":"我們賦予他的任務,賦予他的一個授權,然後賦予他的一個責任遞進,然後他也具備獨立作戰的能力,當他沒有在依照這些的所有的這些的達到他的一個條件的時候,"},{"start":7018.021,"end":7043.633,"text":"他可以依照我們已經授權給他的我們已經告訴他的ROE告訴他的這相關的作為他就能夠遂行指揮官的意圖這裡面牽到幾個部分第一個就是說我們過去部隊習慣請示上級連看到無人機都要搖拐拐那現在你們在每一個最小的作戰單位我都給你一個接戰指令授權範圍"},{"start":7045.074,"end":7066.611,"text":"那他是還要請示只是斷聯了我作戰區跟作戰區上跟下斷聯了我才能夠採取所謂去中心化的自己做決策還是我們就訓練他習慣於你已經有這個範圍你已經有這個規範了你就去執行不用再請示是哪一種我要跟委員做一個報告其實兩者是互補"},{"start":7067.552,"end":7077.756,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24"},{"start":7095.083,"end":7113.548,"text":"同年的已經中斷掉了。其實在這個去中心化的執管,他非常重要的一件事情,他要求他的快速。他能夠依照敵情判斷之後,依照指揮官授予他的任務,他就能夠採行行動。這個是他的一個,不見得要回報。"},{"start":7118.186,"end":7140.971,"text":"有對到我真正想問的我們到底是在通訊鏈C4ISR中斷的時候才採取授權還是把我們的部隊的文化整個改變美軍是這樣子喔你有個目標文化都會改變對你有個方法你有個授權範圍你就可以勇於敢於做決定嘛所以你現在是後者"},{"start":7141.411,"end":7170.493,"text":"是的那這是我們中華民國部隊很大的變革喔是的但是他還是會有一個中心化的指揮這個不變指揮鏈一定會在啦但是會有去中心化的行動報委員我這樣子說明指揮鏈、授權、命令、目標都很明確當然那個有中心但是進到行動的時候他可以知道我這個範圍根據我手上的工具跟我得到的授權範圍來決定我怎麼做那我就要問你第二個問題了"},{"start":7171.414,"end":7195.131,"text":"那這樣接戰指令、ROE、接戰規則就要很普遍的下放到很基層的單位嗎?甚至到單兵。我們今年是到單兵。我們現在有到這樣程度嗎?跟委員報告我們從去年開始推動應該講ROE的推動我們推動幾年了但是我們現階段又把它去做一些的這個重新的去做調整"},{"start":7195.751,"end":7222.739,"text":"我們今年的ROE在今年漢光我們會驗證到每一個單兵手上就會有一個他的交戰規則告訴你在什麼樣的狀況下你就可以採行行動你就可以使用武器裝備所以不同的單位他其實完全不一樣這個就是變成以前坦白講以前漢光是用演的啦C好的比較多啦現在你這個就不能演了我現在瞭解你這個班"},{"start":7224.226,"end":7253.685,"text":"那班長可能會不見啊不只是通信的問題那每一個單兵知不知道我的接戰指令跟我的目標範圍嗎所以這一個變革其實是提升戰力增加部隊彈性還有存活率這個其實是一個往實戰化去做處理那本席認為國軍勇於去做改變這要給您肯定而且前幾年磨合透過演習讓我們的各作戰單位各最小單位習慣做決定勇於做決定"},{"start":7254.98,"end":7255.24,"text":"主席"},{"start":7274.565,"end":7298.721,"text":"也會有一個精進的方向嗎?會。那個會不會列機密?這一次會第一次做,但是有些的不...我們整個漢光的演習的這些檢討都是列為機密。對,因為我們過去講了很多ROE的東西。是的。但去中心化的實兵演練,這是第一次。確實。確實是第一次。是,其實也是一些經驗的累積之後,讓我們可以做到這一步。那軍令系統在推動這一套的時候,"},{"start":7299.758,"end":7316.188,"text":"改革總是會有阻力嗎?沒有阻力的改革通常是假的啦。你在推動當中有沒有遇到困難?其實就是觀念的建立是我們的第一個碰到的一個困難。那觀念其實,坦白講我們這邊那麼多老朋友都是將領,越資深的將領觀念要改變越困難啦。"},{"start":7317.328,"end":7327.33,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":7345.874,"end":7374.308,"text":"所以我剛才問了不知道總長方不方便講你在推動這個區中心化跟ROE這個下放到很基層到單兵身上了坦白講指揮官反而是事前的計畫要做的周詳作戰的行動反而是下放到更大指揮官的責任更重有沒有遇到阻力應該講說我們在指揮官要完整規劃剛才我跟委員提到的五件事情第一個要給他非常給下級非常清楚的任務"},{"start":7375.809,"end":7393.861,"text":"還有他要執行的這個內容還有第二個要非常明確的授權他能做什麼事情還有授權的範圍甚至接替指揮的這些都在裡面第三要給他規劃出非常精準的責任區這些東西指揮官是個挑戰沒有一個不是挑戰我請教你們過去在官校的時候有學過這些東西嗎?"},{"start":7398.904,"end":7414.231,"text":"二、報委員我當時也是對這個是一張白紙也是這幾年的累積這跟我們過去將領的養成其實完全不一樣欸因為你事情要想得很透徹這一塊這一塊是什麼誰去執行怎麼執行帶隊的人不在了誰接上來"},{"start":7415.455,"end":7443.523,"text":"然後通訊斷了之後怎麼弄,大概有很多很多細節。所以坦白講這應該會有遇到一些困難點。但是這我們必須要做的。檢討是你們機密本席尊重啦,否則坦白講我們委員會應該要了解臺灣首次進行了這樣子的RE跟去中心化的實兵演練。那個檢討如果在不設機密下我們也請顧部長參著看看,可以讓我們委員會可以了解。但是機密我們是尊重。好你先請回喔。"},{"start":7444.223,"end":7472.205,"text":"不,部長先請坐。今天好像,有啦,部長先上來,還有我們海軍參謀長兩位,其他先請回。另外是一個制度的調整。這一次中共的潛艦在台海中線以西,大概靠近金門附近。我看了舊的資料,大概那個座標有三次潛艦在那邊被發現,中共的潛艦。那,到目前為止有確認型號了嗎?"},{"start":7474.139,"end":7502.225,"text":"有他是什麼型號不能講我從來不為難你們不方便講就不方便講我猜是094嘛 凍94嘛因為那個駝背駝的那麼明顯他是一路扶航還是到那邊才扶起來應該是一路扶航應該是一路扶航因為在那邊再扶起來就另外一個事情了那他出現在這裡的原因你們估計是什麼"},{"start":7504.189,"end":7509.873,"text":"我今天要問的是另外一個問題,澎湖的漁民去那邊抓小管拍到這個相片提供出來對我們國軍有沒有幫助?"},{"start":7532.466,"end":7544.974,"text":"三、審查本院委員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":7554.56,"end":7572.185,"text":"外國船艦包含中國的是有錢可以領的,對不對?是所以中國我們分成軍用、民用、公務還有24海里外、24海里內等等等等那科研船也在裡面,獎金大概就是3萬、2萬、1萬不等那你看我看下一個表,你仔細看喔"},{"start":7573.685,"end":7590.032,"text":"這幾年共軍對台灣的威脅的值跟量都是上升沒錯吧?是那怎麼會我們漁民有獎金可以拿的卻逐年一直遞減甚至今年都是還是零欸我第一個先請問一下094發現了這一艘漁船他可以申請獎金吧?"},{"start":7591.964,"end":7592.264,"text":"報告主席"},{"start":7610.797,"end":7637.908,"text":"我們現在本國籍的船在外海的不會只有漁船啦還有遊艇還有海釣船所以是不是修訂獎勵對象從本國籍漁船放寬到本國籍船舶這第一個建議這增加對國軍獲得目標的名利的範圍這對國軍的戰力是往外延伸嘛第二個獎勵的限制你們你剛剛講的是這個你們已經在掌控中的你就不發獎金了"},{"start":7639.413,"end":7665.711,"text":"那漁船會說我跟你講的你都說掌控中那算了所以我認為這個部長可以研究看看我們本軍艦艇已經在監控中的被發現的是不是要合法獎金但是跟像我們一般的刑事犯罪都有分成第一個發現、第二個發現、第三個發現你可以依次遞減最後一個獎金是不是該適度提高來增加誘因這三點供國防部參考好不好部長這樣可以嗎"},{"start":7666.371,"end":7666.391,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":7689.606,"end":7697.009,"text":"等會兒沈博洋委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘。接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。你好,我們請部長。請部長。"},{"start":7722.645,"end":7745.794,"text":"部長好。部長這一次的漢光演習有沒有規劃同時在漢光演習執行的過程當中那共軍不管是在共建共機同時老台這個時候的protocol或者是說對應的準則有沒有先做好準備避免情勢升溫那這樣的狀況是不是可以請部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":7748.308,"end":7772.393,"text":"我想就這個共軍可能的擾台的這個部分都在我們的聯合情監偵監視的一個範圍之內那所以我們會持續的一直充分的掌握然後世界的對應包括這個在空的訓練機然後戰鬥巡邏機等等然後船艦我們也會做這個"},{"start":7778.835,"end":7805.057,"text":"對這個他已經在那邊的傳言我們都會做一個監控這樣子。部長我的意思是說因為在漢光演習演習視同作戰嘛那這時候是長時間高強度那我們的國軍不管是陸海空都在這種最高強度的狀況之下那在這一種的壓力之下同時遇到中共如果還是一樣大規模的這樣子來去侵擾我國的話"},{"start":7806.578,"end":7816.508,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":7825.187,"end":7849.679,"text":"我的理解是我們如果是屬於那一個要屬於警戒三昧維持的部分他是不會參與這個漢光的一個演習的部隊所以我們還是維持一定的這個兵力跟數量來特別是海空軍的部分來掌握這個敵情的狀況來應對所以應該"},{"start":7854.935,"end":7861.323,"text":"應該不至於會,您講了這個有發生衝突升高的一個可能性這樣子。"},{"start":7862.489,"end":7890.548,"text":"所以演訓的部隊跟他實質上面過去我們掌控大概是分離開來的就對了?對對因為我們講所有部隊不是講所有的全部的他可能有的正好在做他的相關的一些警戒或者是剛好在測考等等的這些還是會維持住我們相關的部隊都出去就是運用我們可以運用的一個兵力然後來最大化來做這樣子"},{"start":7892.569,"end":7915.282,"text":"好謝謝部長那我們來看一下下一頁那這個是我們把今年所有由國防部那他釋放出來的資訊那我們來做一個比較我想之前台灣的一些其他國防相關安全研究的這些雜誌都有做這一些數據上面或者是把這一個軌跡然後做一個統整"},{"start":7916.187,"end":7939.697,"text":"我們現在看到說它的範圍跟接近臺灣的領空領海的狀況是越來越接近、越來越頻繁。最近的距離是到臺灣的本島是31海里。我們強調這件事情是因為我必須再說就是國防部不管是在我們的社群媒體把這些訊息釋放出來是非常正確的做法。"},{"start":7940.197,"end":7962.954,"text":"那我們是希望說未來不僅要做而且可以更頻繁那可以把掌控的情質如果不違反國家安全的狀況之下更大的揭露出去給所有這個國際的媒體跟國際的研究智庫來去使用我為什麼再次強調這件事情是因為在許多的聽證會或者是國會議員我們的接觸上面他們都一直在強調說"},{"start":7964.555,"end":7990.766,"text":"臺灣面臨的威脅他們需要更加的視覺化來去呈現給美國的公眾或者是這一個其他相關的利害相關者因為只有視覺化我們才知道說我們威脅到底在哪裡那所以從這一個陸海空和周邊空域的活動示意圖我覺得這就是一個很好的方式那特別過去是有把畸形來全部都有揭露但是後來據我上次來質詢國防"},{"start":7991.886,"end":7993.867,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8014.195,"end":8043.095,"text":"呃我我我我我先請這個呃情事室來回回回答一下他們的他們的肯慎是來委員好我是情事市長那當然委員提到這段是我們長時間在做每天早上都會公布整個海空的動態那是我們調整的時候當然包括委員提到的我們之前公布包含他的機型數量甚至從哪個地方在哪個地方做活動但是呃我們通盤考量之後因為敵情的威脅他是多變的多元化的"},{"start":8043.735,"end":8060.938,"text":"那我們很多情資來源等等也因為透過這些我們公布了之後啊那不管是對岸也好甚至我們有門國家要給我們一些情資警訊告訴我們說畢竟台海周邊的這些情資威脅是越來越多元"},{"start":8061.459,"end":8063.08,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8079.514,"end":8096.293,"text":"未來齁可以參考就是說這些示意圖可以更視覺化的把它做出來讓我們作為國會議員我們到其他的國家的時候在講中共對台的威脅的時候那我們可以展示出來那用更方對更視覺化更快速更直覺的方式我在國安會已經到國安部之後我都"},{"start":8096.833,"end":8111.717,"text":"我都就這個部分希望有一些檢討,那我們再檢討來看看。但是因為情勢事實是顧慮到我們徵收的手段,因為這樣子會有一些洩漏,所以我們可能還要再研析一下。"},{"start":8111.957,"end":8127.243,"text":"沒問題這之間的平衡怎麼抓我想還是要總體的考量那就是在資訊透明跟資訊的這個保防這些其實都要並重所以可以理解因為資訊的揭露有助於我們跟國際之間的一些戰略溝通"},{"start":8133.207,"end":8147.077,"text":"國防外交委員會委員同時是國防也是外交的委員那我們在外交的場合上面在不同的智庫也會講這些事情那接下來就是想請教一下就是關於這個勤勞的部分那我看到"},{"start":8148.198,"end":8163.683,"text":"華盛頓郵報的報導說,美軍為了防止中共的犯台那中共艦隊要入侵的時候,美軍說會在台海部署數千艘的無人艦艇、無人水面艦艇還有空中無人機等等。我想請教一下這個國防部的這些同仁"},{"start":8164.463,"end":8187.779,"text":"我們有沒有足夠的數量來去面對因為根據這個英國國防安全智庫那皇家聯合研究所的報告他說烏克蘭每月在戰場上面損失大概是一萬架無人機那一萬架無人機當然不是有些是高價值的無人機那有些是比較平價小型的無人機但這樣子的價值或者數量不能夠用這樣子直接去換算"},{"start":8188.88,"end":8202.873,"text":"但是我想透過發展無人機去減低我們的傳統兵力的這種損失當然是非常重要我想知道說目前大家怎麼估計我們的庫存是否足夠我們的自治率是否足夠採購量是否足夠"},{"start":8204.234,"end":8217.819,"text":"跟委員報告我個人認為是不足夠所以我們要建立自主的產能來有效的應對那還要引進這一個AI的系統來建立敵我識別這樣子的一個"},{"start":8219.54,"end":8242.949,"text":"情況也就是說我們這個面積狹隘啦吼那很多的這一個無人機那在上面的話那要建立敵國識別然後要建立擊殺鏈等等的這些都需要靠AR的輔助那無人機的這一個部分的發展我想日訓夜議那我們需要來有更多的多元的這個"},{"start":8244.702,"end":8269.738,"text":"不管結合到這個進行這個截擊在海上的階段,或者是在貪案的階段,我們都要運用各種不同型態的無人機。那這個部分屬於不對稱作戰裡面一個很重要的一環。那就像您講的這個無人機的耗量是相當的大,所以我們也很希望能夠建立這個自主產量。"},{"start":8271.642,"end":8298.679,"text":"我還是強調自主跟對外採購它是不會互相矛盾對,我們現在是並行對,就並行那當然是說這樣子看起來在烏克蘭的實戰上面的運用或者是其他國家那是非常的明確但是另外一個部分就是臺灣海峽那我們所要佈建的除了我們潛艦國造之外在無人載具的海下的載具跟海面上的載具最近美軍有一些新的這些建制"},{"start":8299.099,"end":8317.065,"text":"我想知道說這部分我們比較少看到畢竟那如果是在海下的話也很難去觀摩那這個部分我們的規劃大體上面的規劃是什麼有足夠的量能嗎我們國家有這些合格的這些國防的產業鏈可以做到這些海下載具嗎"},{"start":8319.085,"end":8339.331,"text":"我只能這樣子跟委員報告就是說這是我們未來不對稱建軍的一個重點那我們會跟印太司令部來持續的交流來持續的發展這樣子的一個您剛剛講的不管是空中的水面的跟水下的這些運用然後跟這個"},{"start":8342.261,"end":8353.787,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":8368.375,"end":8394.577,"text":"我認為經過培訓之後他可以再進入這些國防產業鏈那他應該受到更大的一個重視那這是除了教育部來投入資源之外因為通常我們這些在國內的這些設備的構置那些競賽的構置都還是要跟教育部來去爭取資源可是這其實跟國防產業也是有關聯的所以這部分如果可以的話我們是希望"},{"start":8395.618,"end":8410.036,"text":"國防部也可以納入考量從國中、高中這些小型的飛手我們看到在烏克蘭很多他根本沒有任何的軍事的經驗那直接就被徵召那在市區外來去見面敵人那我認為說這些都是可以來去考慮的"},{"start":8410.737,"end":8412.398,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8429.929,"end":8453.9,"text":"這個駕照是很長的一段時間才換那麼希望考照、換照的頻率可以像駕照一樣不要這麼頻繁的來去老民那這些更多人、更多不同的方面產業都可以來進入無人機產業來進入無人機的這個領域好謝謝,謝謝部長、謝謝各位好謝謝,謝謝委員好謝謝陳冠廷委員發言然後接下來由馬文君委員來發言"},{"start":8463.235,"end":8464.696,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請顧部長還有梅總長有請部長及總長"},{"start":8474.853,"end":8497.759,"text":"市委馬委員好部長好總長好久不見這一次我們特別在委員會邀請針對國防部就漢光四十號演習規劃的情形進行專案報告那我們特別邀請參謀總長梅上將可以列席主要是剛剛其實有很多位委員其實都有詢問過"},{"start":8500.14,"end":8514.567,"text":"那其實梅總長畢竟至少你是文道有先後、書業有專攻嘛那部長雖然曾經在國安會不過我們這一次漢光演習做了很多的變革那剛剛"},{"start":8516.328,"end":8518.291,"text":"委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8533.015,"end":8535.056,"text":"委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8561.71,"end":8571.939,"text":"前三大危險的區域一個俄烏一個就是以巴然後一個就是我們的台海那沒有理由不讓我們所有的國人更清楚的知道我們應該面對什麼樣的環境所以我們不管就什麼樣的議題討論我們希望都是朝正面來看待好不好因為就像上一次我們去太平島次長也跟我們去還有處長也跟我們去其實就是很簡單的"},{"start":8588.053,"end":8591.555,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":8603.641,"end":8609.869,"text":"所以就這個部分我們希望可以很中立的可以來探討這樣相關的問題因為這一次我們在漢光演習裡面不管是驗證去中心化也好剛剛總長說這個部分已經好幾年了"},{"start":8621.383,"end":8622.503,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8638.928,"end":8653.265,"text":"在這裡要詢問的一點是我們演習驗證的科目哪裡去了會不會做因為就上一次我們這一次特別請總長很重要的一個原因也是因為部長上任以後面對媒體的詢問曾經說過作戰或者戰術成績的部分是交給參謀總長"},{"start":8659.272,"end":8680.357,"text":"那部長是對於軍政還有軍備的事務會比較專注所以今天漢光四十號演習的專報就這個部分總長可以在百忙當中出席我們希望可以有機會可以讓總長跟我們說明的更清楚一點好不好"},{"start":8681.037,"end":8691.824,"text":"我想可以請總長說明,不過我還是說明一下我們對於戰略層級的部分,我想總長還是屬於我駐軍令的幕僚長,所以應該還是我這邊,那我只是說明說作戰跟戰術層級的"},{"start":8698.087,"end":8707.873,"text":"由總長來負責這我想也是符合國防部組織法相關的一個國防二法以後當然我們軍政軍令還有軍備其實主要的責任都會在國防部長可是今天可以由雙方因為部長剛接任那這麼多的一個新的變革如果有兩位一起來我相信其實會可以更四平八穩讓大家知道所以其實目的很簡單"},{"start":8725.484,"end":8726.085,"text":"二、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":8744.645,"end":8755.338,"text":"取消假想敵這個部分因為在等於是兩棲登陸的聯興還有空降作戰的聯雲操演會被取消那這個部分是真的嗎?"},{"start":8757.51,"end":8778.725,"text":"謝謝委員﹚感謝委員的關心首先說明剛才委員關切的聯興跟聯雲的這兩個科目這個是我們年度都會訓練的一個是空降的還有反空降的聯合作戰的科目另外一個是兩棲作戰的這個確實在今年我們沒有排入到漢光演習裡面"},{"start":8780.346,"end":8801.883,"text":"原因是這兩個都我們颱風防衛作戰是一個首次作戰那這兩個部隊的主要成員是有兩個非常關鍵的戰力一個是我們的陸軍的特戰然後第二個是我們的海軍陸戰隊他們在防衛作戰都有他們特定的任務他們在防衛作戰的時候都有他"},{"start":8803.103,"end":8826.552,"text":"首次作戰的特定任務所以我們這一次要求這些規劃這些的部隊應該要結合防衛作戰因為我們漢光演習為了我們防衛作戰的目的而設定的演習所以說讓他援兵歸援衛這些特戰的兵力應該到他的戰術位置應該去熟悉他的環境應該知道他的指揮管制的關係"},{"start":8827.932,"end":8833.916,"text":"這個我們認為是今年我們訓練的一個要項所以我們做這樣子的規劃跟委員做個說明總長因為到去年之前這個紅軍的科目或者像聯興、聯雲的這個演訓其實都是存在的那聯興跟聯雲就我們因為剛剛有提到他們在首次作戰他們有另外的一個安排要執行的項目如果他們在被取消以後他們會安排執行什麼"},{"start":8857.157,"end":8868.099,"text":"跟委員做個報告,我們在年度的這個聯興跟聯雲並沒有取消,它還是存在的。所以它在其他的時間點還是會去做演練。不過,總長,因為就軍事專家的解釋,陸軍特戰散兵部隊還有海軍陸戰隊在戰時它具有快速投射戰場的能力。"},{"start":8880.402,"end":8900.391,"text":"所以聯興跟聯雲的操演他們年度最重要、最標準、最完整的三軍聯合作戰演練這個其實都是在漢光演習可以一次到位可是我們這一次把它抽出來做防衛型的我們現在想要理解的是因為現在南海、太平島周圍緊張的情勢除了大陸解放軍以外還有其他國家比如說像越南他們也是虎視眈眈"},{"start":8907.634,"end":8925.179,"text":"所以如果說陸戰隊外島的未將恢復作戰能力不再需要藉由這樣大型的演練然後來驗收他們聯合作戰的能力嗎那如果這樣子沒有這樣做的話全部都是手勢未來如果發生作戰要收復外離島的時候我們有能力執行嗎"},{"start":8927.52,"end":8950.487,"text":"因為畢竟我們還有很多的外離島不是只有太平島也不是只有更遠的我們還有周邊的外離島那我們通常像這兩個聯興跟聯雲他主要就是我們歸附作戰的這樣子的一個能力所以他們要怎麼樣做戰力的一個驗證謝謝委員關鍵我們其實在7月初的時候我們的聯興演習"},{"start":8956.989,"end":8976.962,"text":"就會執行完畢所以他的剛才委員所關切的他的任務兩棲作戰的任務他的總能還有他的這些的一個整體的我們並沒有因為沒有納入那個漢光演習而有任何的調整那聯勇演習我們在漢光結束之後也會執行"},{"start":8977.97,"end":9003.175,"text":"所以說這個我們是在一個綜合考量下先把漢光聚焦在因為剛才委員提到一個非常重要的觀點他不僅是我們防衛作戰的這個重要的部隊其實他也還有兼顧其他的他的兩棲作戰的能力還有這個快速這些的空機降的這個能力我們這些的總能我們不會去做他的這個這個做任何的取消"},{"start":9003.675,"end":9008.283,"text":"但是希望在漢光演習的時候聚焦在防衛作戰的任務對"},{"start":9010.331,"end":9016.558,"text":"總長您有一直提到我們現在其實把重心都放在防衛作戰那所以其實像他們不同的一個作戰特性尤其是他們這兩個那他們未來會安排到什麼樣的地方比如說像陸軍特戰其實他們有很多他們都可以做的你是要把這個都做他們的這些相關的業務嗎因為時間的關係"},{"start":9034.876,"end":9035.656,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":9051.849,"end":9052.189,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":9073.132,"end":9083.022,"text":"這是我們今天特別邀請美總長可以來的一個很重要的因素。接下來請總長先回座。我借一點點時間來請教部長。部長,因為您上任以後有提到我們未來國防預算會增加,然後我們會有很多的"},{"start":9096.156,"end":9110.327,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":9113.47,"end":9136.884,"text":"自殺無人快艇重創俄軍黑海艦隊大型艦艇的戰機所以中科院以代號快起專案科研用了兩億五千萬大概兩億多的經費去研製導控距離60公里的攻擊型無人艇時間的關係今天我先請教一下我們看到烏克蘭"},{"start":9137.805,"end":9144.189,"text":"在他的新型的2024黑海安全論壇上面公開的潛行者五新型的海上無人艇單價大概是兩百多萬就是六萬歐元"},{"start":9153.956,"end":9174.254,"text":"他具備150公斤的彈頭重量,航程高達600公里,最高速度可以達每小時75公里而且烏克蘭現役有實戰的自殺無人快艇,每艘也只要新台幣600萬可是我們中科院現在在科研的一艘高達五、六千萬"},{"start":9175.595,"end":9198.033,"text":"如果再把其他的導控還有他的站台全部放進來其實就不止了比他至少貴了十倍以上今天我們希望把國防預算用在島口上我們有需要可是我們需要用到這麼貴因為他是消耗品他是自殺式的攻擊所以去了就不會回來那你需要用到這麼貴的"},{"start":9199.655,"end":9205.629,"text":"經而去做這樣的科研嗎?他都已經非常成熟了。那這個部分部長是不是有什麼樣的簡單的一個看法?"},{"start":9208.576,"end":9213.741,"text":"我想有一些東西就是說在現貨市場是不是能夠買得到這是一個要考慮的事情部長無人機可以買到這個船艦這個小型的無人艇船體非常簡單這個我們國內很多的船廠都可以做所以我們為什麼要花這麼高的預算"},{"start":9229.537,"end":9231.798,"text":"人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人"},{"start":9241.701,"end":9260.187,"text":"這個人家已經用了而且是非常成熟的然後他只要兩百多萬甚至如果是在現役的只要六百萬我們一艘卻要六千萬這是非常離譜的那你以後量產的時候更不得了而且如果把導控其他的再算進去平均一艘算得出來嗎?院長"},{"start":9265.734,"end":9273.397,"text":"好就這個部分我先提出來我們希望國防部還有中科院可以提供詳細的資料如果不恰當希望你們可以做修正甚至怎麼樣去採購這樣成熟的這樣的一個武器裝備我相信其實並不困難我們無人機比較或者其他的都可以買到了這個不會有困難部長請你們下去做一個檢視跟調整好不好"},{"start":9291.564,"end":9304.033,"text":"好,我們會來進行研議,那我將這個委員的建議來納入我們思考的方式。好,謝謝,會得太離譜了,謝謝。好,謝謝馬文君委員。接下來由沈博洋委員發言。那謝謝,有請這個顧部長跟美總長,謝謝。有請部長還有總長。"},{"start":9327.764,"end":9342.557,"text":"我先問總長我還是認為總長不應該在這裡但是我覺得既然今天總長來了那我就問一些因為我知道有些事情不適合在這個國會的殿堂那因為我有看到這一次演習的時候"},{"start":9344.698,"end":9370.208,"text":"總長自己有提到就是說因為我覺得這個並不是細節而是一個管理的方式那管理的方式我覺得是蠻重要的那有特別提到由上對下的一個這個溝通的觀念就是直接說目的是什麼然後漸漸取代由下至上逐級提報修正的一個陋習然後說這樣是可以去減輕部隊的一個負擔跟行政的作業那不知道總長是不是能夠在這邊跟國人說明一下這整個的精神"},{"start":9371.583,"end":9389.164,"text":"公務委員報告其實我們委員應該也了解所謂的一個任務是指揮的概念其實任務是指揮非常重要的第一件事情就是能夠把你的意圖還有你的這個希望你的部署達到的以及他對於"},{"start":9390.285,"end":9414.39,"text":"我執行完這件工作之後應該要達到的一個預期的一個成果要能夠清楚的轉達讓你的部署知道然後藉由他們完成所謂方法跟手段我覺得這個是一個我們現階段在推動這一個工作非常重要的所以我覺得我也必須成為我是一個總長我必須要讓我的部署"},{"start":9414.91,"end":9435.051,"text":"為什麼我們會有所謂的高階幹部的任務式的做圖上兵推其實就是把這些的作戰的這些的方法去做一個非常深入的探討讓下級的指揮官已經了解我們的意圖以這樣子推動事情會比較快速"},{"start":9436.493,"end":9452.368,"text":"謝謝總長因為我覺得這個部長上任之後呢也是很著重在於溝通的成本不要一直提高所以能夠直接的讓我們的一個規劃讓指揮官知道讓這一個士兵知道那這樣其實是更直接的一個方式那很感謝這個總長的說明那總長請回接下來我都是要問部長相關的問題"},{"start":9453.849,"end":9480.547,"text":"好,那這個呢就是部長之前也有提到就是說我們盡量能讓行政負擔減輕我們之前有問到休假什麼等等之類的那這一次我們可以看到外媒的報導就是說這個無劇本不作秀的一個方式獲得基層的一個肯定那也是增強國人的信心我覺得國際上反而都是對這個是好評那所以呢我覺得更進一步我們想要去看的事情是說就是接下來除了最後一個我寫的這邊國際支持之外"},{"start":9482.208,"end":9506.67,"text":"因為我們會有更多的跨部會整合的狀況以及一些hybrid warfare就是這種新型的這種敵情威脅的映出所以等一下想要就教於部長就是針對這一些方面我們接下來的規劃是什麼那我第一個部分就是在新型的這個敵情威脅太陽我這邊想要講的是因為剛好這一次呢就是中國在國台辦還有在國安部、公安部的這一個"},{"start":9507.27,"end":9534.36,"text":"在記者會的時候規定了一個台獨分子的一個規定那這個看起來本來是跟外交部有關因為譬如說海外假設你今天被認定台獨分子啊會不會被引渡啊等等之類的但因為國防部接下來可能也要面對就好像菲律賓遇到的這種法律戰的狀況所以呢在接下來的這一個過程當中我們接下來對國人法律相關的說明這一個方面國防部有沒有可能來做想問一下部長"},{"start":9535.782,"end":9549.314,"text":"國防部應該是如果就因為國防部畢竟是在軍事面向上面要做好這個相關的論述那所以國防部在就這個"},{"start":9552.94,"end":9555.282,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":9573.672,"end":9595.283,"text":"甚至應該是到國安層級來進行跨部會對國際也好、對內也好做一個參與跨部會來做好溝通。對,因為我覺得可以很明確地感受到他們今年整體的目標都是用法律的方式。這個說明其實有些跟國安有關,有些跟國防有關,有些又跟外交有關。"},{"start":9597.365,"end":9623.385,"text":"關於這一個跨部會的整合我當然還有一個細節想要問但最右邊這一個方式是因為我們也時常遇到一個狀況就是因為畢竟我們現在有越來越多的這些士兵或者我們的一些指揮官到美國做訓練那從美國做訓練回來以後其實會帶回來很多的經驗但是我們也發現一個狀況就是說這些人很容易可能都被叫回去常常是做翻譯的工作因為他們英文太好了因為他們在那邊已經有太多的溝通"},{"start":9623.985,"end":9639.693,"text":"所以我覺得這一件事情當然我覺得因為他們畢竟有那麼多的經驗不應該只是英文那台灣其實英文好的人也所在多有那另外有一個情形呢我就覺得也是可能可以跟中研院等等討論看看就是不聯網的這些翻譯的系統"},{"start":9640.493,"end":9669.34,"text":"雖然之前在中委院開發的系統是有被批評但是不聯網的翻譯的系統直接翻譯的系統取代人為的這一個可能可以考慮看看那這樣不但可以減輕這些人還要不斷的去當翻譯的這個能量或許也可以讓他們回歸他們從美國帶回來的經驗所以這邊就是給部長一個小小的建議我跟委員報告我們現在越來越重視這些流外的這些人回來"},{"start":9670.2,"end":9688.894,"text":"那跟委員報告因為就我的理解就是說他們都要經歷一定的我們叫經管就是說他要去歷練所以我現在很重視就是說他們不要因為他們去外面學習回來之後他們經管的這個部分會欠缺"},{"start":9689.634,"end":9708.625,"text":"所以比如說他們要進入紫參、要進入戰爭學院,現在就要結合,就是說他甚至在國外就可以去考,考回來馬上就可以銜接上去。然後他的指揮官的這個歷練,那也要來進行。像這樣子的話,好好的來運用的話,"},{"start":9710.032,"end":9724.595,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":9736.098,"end":9744.522,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員"},{"start":9754.727,"end":9777.279,"text":"推動全民國防教育、增進全民防衛意識、凝蓄民心士氣、塑造有力的戰略環境。最後一句話叫做獲取的訊息主導的地位。我覺得訊息主導地位這一點當然聽起來是比較模糊。但是或許在蠻多狀況我會認為真的有時候有必要會有一些主導的地位。我下面用一個很簡單的例子。"},{"start":9777.879,"end":9797.257,"text":"這個例子跟中國沒有關係,它完全就只是一個單純的投書而已。但這個投書裡面,記者報導就講說中國要把戰機改成無人機,會消耗我們的愛國者飛彈等等之類的。當然其實,間期要去把它做改造,然後它還需要跑道等等之類的,它其實有很多難以達成的事情。"},{"start":9798.038,"end":9825.063,"text":"但是像這種新聞一出來以後我們要怎麼避免這種又再配句擷取去做一些文章然後反而造成國人的恐慌說哇那接下來會不會無人機壓境啊我們的愛國者飛彈怎麼辦啊它顯然就是一個會對我們國防信心會動搖的一則報導那這個報導可能就只是一個專家的一個評論那這個評論我們以國防部來講在訊息主導地位的時候有沒有什麼比較好的方式可以跟國人說明就是"},{"start":9825.583,"end":9835.17,"text":"那這件事我們應該要怎麼去跟公眾做溝通?跟委員報告,這個不禁又讓我想起,我就從國安會過來。"},{"start":9837.185,"end":9866.623,"text":"我們現在確實要配合政治、經濟、外交跟相關的這些手段來塑造有利的一個戰略環境,獲取一個訊息主導的一個地位。這個工作應該是跨部會,事實上是在國安層級裡面來處理這個部分。我大概現在是在國防部,但是有機會私下再跟委員做一個中文的說明。"},{"start":9866.963,"end":9891.568,"text":"沒有問題,因為有時候就是會遇到這樣的一個狀況,比如說群組裡面開始有人截圖啊,在說這個無人機要壓境啊,那反而有時候像這種新聞一出來以後,常常第一個被訪問的反而是像我,然後就是被記者訪問,那我就反而要稍微講一下就是說無人機改造的這個過程可能是什麼,它可能還需要更多的成本,所以有可能有不可行的地方等等之類的,但感覺好像我們好像不太像是闢謠單位,雖然記者會問我們啦,"},{"start":9893.368,"end":9906.867,"text":"所以我們要配合進行這個反制任職專案,特別是在軍事消息的這一面,有一些真為混雜,有一些是假的,那要如何我們政政局都要負責來協同來做。"},{"start":9909.33,"end":9925.4,"text":"對因為接下來像會有因為有時候他只是台灣的專家可能受訪啊這個有時候算小事因為只要澄清一下或者說討論一下我覺得都是健康的討論但怕就是怕說比如說境外勢力他去見縫查證他把裡面的話做曲解然後再做成圖卡然後在爛群組大量散播"},{"start":9925.64,"end":9926.08,"text":"我們要預判,然後要主導,這個是"},{"start":9945.741,"end":9964.721,"text":"一個關鍵的,然後所以漢光我們也需要避免被負面的訊息給遮蓋,所以我們要主動出擊然後來說明,對外來說明,像譬如說我們從事這樣子比較實戰化的這種演訊,一定也會發生一些狀況,譬如說"},{"start":9966.062,"end":9983.816,"text":"那胡裝儀容不整等等,或者是臨時出現一些不預期的狀況,這些我們也都要讓國能夠理解,這才是真實的。那過多的表演性質,好像照劇本的,然後大家就這樣子演一遍,然後這樣好像就"},{"start":9985.217,"end":10012.489,"text":"就顯得是無事但其實是沒有真正達到實戰化訓練但是達到實戰化訓練就會有一些風險就risk那我們把這些又要做一些降風險的一些工作所以這個事實上這個中間要取得一個平衡但總之實戰化訓練是一個核心的目標沒錯謝謝部長希望這個國軍然後越來越好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝總長謝謝主席好我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10408.328,"end":10412.809,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請洪森漢委員上台質詢上一次總長來立院報告其實已經20多年前所以今天我想要請顧部長跟梅總長請顧部長、梅總長"},{"start":10444.871,"end":10463.539,"text":"是,黃委員好部長當然我是樂見這個看到國防部裡面去貫徹部長跟總長的分工所以我接下來的問題當然我請兩位一起上台但也可以依照你們職權上的分工來進行回答那我主要我想要先跟這個國防部來討論關於漢光演習的部分"},{"start":10467.34,"end":10486.874,"text":"其實我們都知道其實這個火力展示的目的其實是為了向民眾來展現我們的國防戰力我自己認為這也是全民國防教育的一環這個是要展現我們好的一部分但是其實演習的目的是要來檢驗戰力"},{"start":10489.229,"end":10490.27,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":10511.104,"end":10525.92,"text":"可以看一下螢幕上面的當然這是2019的漢光那如果是用演習的思維來說的話照理來說我們其實應該是要把它做分散的設置包括偽裝的陣地來去處理這個問題可是這個狀況其實我們看到這其實比較像是擺拍"},{"start":10528.152,"end":10529.672,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等23人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等25"},{"start":10550.117,"end":10570.591,"text":"所以我自己很樂見看到今年國防部標榜我們的漢光演習希望能夠所謂來真的那來真的這三個字講得簡單可是要做起來並不是一件這麼容易的事情所以我也今天也有一些媒體朋友在現場其實如果當我們要來真的時候可能就會有看到"},{"start":10571.351,"end":10597.998,"text":"我們在民眾在路上會看到可能一些服裝儀容不一定這麼整齊啊甚至會維修拋錨輪車的這些狀況都可能會發生因為這就是所謂來真的那我自己認為這也才是演習的目的因為真的打仗沒有在怕衣服髒或者我們只做這些面子工程那可是接下來我想要問也問國防部我們未來有沒有擴大能夠將演習跟活力展示徹底分開辦的這樣的規劃"},{"start":10604.131,"end":10619.96,"text":"委員您的意見有關展示對於不管是剛您提到的對於這個民眾的信心然後對我們的把我們實際的一些的武器裝備籌貨之後展現給國人這個還是有它的必要性當然"},{"start":10621.642,"end":10638.804,"text":"對,這個部分我們會有這個今年我們可能這個部分目前因為漢光演習是從去年12月份就開始規劃了然後我們所有的也是做一個延續那您的建議我們會會把考量如何去做在"},{"start":10639.665,"end":10666.205,"text":"在符合在單位的一個任務的狀況還有一個我們時間的配當展示給國人還是有它的必要性。總長我的意思不是說今天我只獨尊演習然後我的活力展示沒有必要我的意思並不是這樣而是怎麼讓這兩件事情之間邏輯不要互相的干擾影響到這兩件事情本身的效益是的那所以我覺得如果真的要做那乾脆就更擴大的分開去處理"},{"start":10667.421,"end":10691.131,"text":"那既可以達到我們希望演習的功能在火力展示要讓大家對國防部有信心的部分我覺得也可以進行可是他邏輯不要衝突這是重點是的 這個我們會把它納入的這個做完整的規劃畢竟我們後面的一個戰力的提升新獲得的這些的裝備如何展示給國人讓國人有信心這個我們一定會把它納入我們的非常重要的考量"},{"start":10691.411,"end":10720.308,"text":"好接下來我還要繼續我想往下細看其實我們都知道目前漢光其實還是一個所謂計劃統裁的概念簡單來說他還是有一定的劇本啦那比方說可能前三天是紅軍佔優勢之後藍軍反攻可是我們看到其實2023年的長青十三號的操演裡面其實已經看到在這個計劃統裁裡面已經開始有實施所謂一般的這個我們一般叫做可能叫自由統裁的部分已經在這裡面其實有看到了"},{"start":10720.936,"end":10749.366,"text":"那我們未來會擴大自由統裁的部分嗎?跟委員報告自由統裁其實最主要就是考驗我們這些的指揮官他能夠去臨機的判斷然後下達他的一個這個指導然後再由統裁部看他的這個作為這個確實是一個在實兵對抗的時候非常好的一種執行的模式但是總長我這邊當然也有幾個部分因為其實有很多不同的專業者來給我們一些建議"},{"start":10750.646,"end":10773.279,"text":"他們也提醒如果要完成自由統裁其實有幾個重要的前提第一個是要有完善的指管系統是的那比方說我們現在看到新加坡的星光部隊他們的指管層級其實是可以到陸軍的單兵他們其實把他們GPS打開以後他們指揮官就可以非常非常清楚地掌握到他們部隊每一個甚至到單兵裡面的位置那這個指揮系統其實可以一清二楚"},{"start":10773.999,"end":10800.471,"text":"可是我們其實陸軍的為了要落實我們的指管到連或者是排其實我們之前委託了中科院的睿子專案但這個專案現在卻被審計部認為效能過低甚至評測有嚴重的延誤無法掌握部隊位置無法及時應變所以變成最後還是只能照劇本演練的這個狀況所以我想請問國防部這部分我們有沒有改進的計劃"},{"start":10807.218,"end":10821.712,"text":"市長,剛才您提到新加坡的這個例子,其實我們現階段確實在朝這個方向在努力中,然後瑞子系統我等一下請陸軍司令部來去做一個說明,但是"},{"start":10823.281,"end":10848.079,"text":"這個方向我們沒有變而且我們可能會有一些的成果但是我們現在問題是我們的準備包括我們的做法上面要怎麼真的趨向這個地方所以我現在看到的反而是如果從睿智系統這個做法來看的話現在反而被審計部做這樣子的評價那國防部怎麼樣去處理這個部分或有沒有什麼改善的做法"},{"start":10849.376,"end":10866.267,"text":"跟委員報告我想我們這個睿智系統的這個建案的這個部分我們應該是說他還他可以有改善的一個地方"},{"start":10867.011,"end":10884.616,"text":"那到達改善的一個程度的時候呢,我們會把它納入。但是我想我們也會有這個完善的一個指管系統的一個方案。"},{"start":10886.136,"end":10896.943,"text":"這些部分我認為可能不適宜在公開的場合做過多的一個說明所以現在就這個"},{"start":10898.735,"end":10920.996,"text":"等於是說我們會把這個執管的這個系統構建到一個我們認為完善的不然我這邊當然是一個提醒啦當然如果有不適合在國會這邊公開講的部分當然我們也尊重那只是就是這部分當然怎麼建立執管系統是大家其實提醒的一個重點那第二個重點其實就是說也有很多人建議是不是要把這個紅藍軍改成"},{"start":10923.078,"end":10951.577,"text":"A、B軍意思是說其實我們現在在我們演習的劇本裡面紅軍其實就是進攻方藍軍其實就是防守方那可是這個紅跟藍又有他的政治意涵在裡面所以常常就會後面有些政治因素比方說如果從紅藍軍的角度來說對我們來說那這個藍軍如果落敗那這個大家壓力就很大就會有所謂的包袱所以有人建議說是不是直接乾脆把紅藍改成A、B就讓他在這背後"},{"start":10951.817,"end":10953.738,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":10973.404,"end":10982.052,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":10983.953,"end":10992.917,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":11006.584,"end":11013.07,"text":"防手防腳,更不敢像是真實的演練的狀況。黃委員,我這邊向委員報告。委員剛剛的指導也是我們在努力的一個方向。我就兩點來說明。第一點,我們過去的這個雷射模擬接戰系統,它的確沒有辦法同步地跟上我們部隊組織變裝的調整。比如現在已經變成聯兵營。"},{"start":11027.924,"end":11028.985,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":11053.387,"end":11082.51,"text":"我想跟國防部說我剛才這幾個當然都是很多專業者給我們的建議這建議當然目的是都未來都希望能夠我們讓自由統裁的部分能夠再擴大讓我們的演練更趨近於真實讓大家的這個軍力真的能夠被解放出來潛力真的被解放出來的目的所以以上我想這幾個建議還是希望國防部可以帶回去來去做參考那接下來我還是要討論到關於卷改的部分我要請國安局的副局長上台黃副局長吧"},{"start":11090.049,"end":11095.648,"text":"副委員我現在投影片上面是國安會跟國安局主管的眷舍"},{"start":11097.05,"end":11124.593,"text":"當然我們在討論建設議題的時候我們首先需要去確認建設現任居住者的身份不能夠說很多軍人的老前輩他可能已經搬走或其他人住在裡面可是他在這個狀況下還能夠領到補助款這當然就會對於其他的老前輩來說變成是一個蠻不公平的事情所以我們這邊其實照理來說其實國安局應該有兩大資料第一個是配住的公文書第二個是居住者的軍階這些資料照理來說應該國安局都有"},{"start":11126.493,"end":11142.822,"text":"三、審查本院委員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員馬文君等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等"},{"start":11154.068,"end":11177.407,"text":"不管是在國安局或國防部之間這些相關的重要的資訊我想照理來說都應該是國安局把它準備好的我們必須掌握誰是合格的居住者並確認他的軍階我們才有辦法給予相對應正確的合適的補助這是重要的事情所以我剛才說這兩大資料一個是配注公文書跟居住者的軍階這應該都是既有的文件"},{"start":11179.449,"end":11186.435,"text":"都應該妥適的提供給國防部啊我們才有辦法進行後續的工作啊這部分的進度"},{"start":11187.389,"end":11214.038,"text":"副局長,現在我們進行到哪裡?我要跟委員報告,我們目前沒有納入的有三個村。那這三個村的部分,我剛剛報告了,中校新村部分還在清查中,因為住戶的一個配合度不是很高,甚至我們沒辦法取得那個…這不是配合度的問題,這你要住在裡面,你就應該相對應,包括這也是照理說國安局應該直接掌握的文件啊。"},{"start":11215.679,"end":11242.681,"text":"因為當時的配住是民國58年還有64年那麼長久的時間原始的資料有些住戶都已經不見了副局長我們這幾份資料如果沒有辦法掌握清楚的時候我們後續的問題就很難處理就容易有糾紛大家今天在國會討論就很容易落入空中樓閣這是我們現在今天為什麼要在這邊很具體的要求這些相關剛剛兩大資料的文件"},{"start":11243.649,"end":11245.216,"text":"我認為國安局請一個月內"},{"start":11246.55,"end":11275.473,"text":"告訴我們進度到底你把這個資料具體的轉交給國防部到什麼程度那假設還沒轉交呢你接下來打算該怎麼辦你要拿出具體的辦法不然我們接下來處理卷改的問題只會衍生非常非常多的爭議這不是我們樂見的事情我們希望這個相關的採取處理都能夠順利把握這些讓這些軍人的老前輩們拿他應有的權利這是我們期望的事情但我不希望變成行政端變成是爭議的來源啊可以嗎"},{"start":11275.993,"end":11276.013,"text":"請顧部長、參謀總長"},{"start":11310,"end":11323.49,"text":"總長好,還有我們部長好。那今年的漢光演習呢,比較不同的是,過去是五天四夜,現在呢改成八天七夜嘛。那對,改成八天七夜,郭部長應該知道。"},{"start":11324.531,"end":11352.617,"text":"那上次呢我問邱部長的時候那就講說呢我們要增加很多跟聯軍演訓的部分那我想要請您再針對這個部分再說明一下在五天四夜延長到八天七夜有哪一些科目是增加的當然如果涉及機密的部分可以不說沒有關係但是我們希望知道說增加了這幾個天數那我們是要增加哪一部分的一些演習又可以達到什麼樣的目的"},{"start":11353.26,"end":11358.036,"text":"我想詳細的由總長來報告不過跟您說明一下八天企業是指那個電腦"},{"start":11360.542,"end":11381.916,"text":"指揮所的那個電腦輔志指揮所的這個演練然後時兵的這個部分是五天四夜那但是那個但是顧部長因為上一次我問邱部長的時候他確實有說演練的項目是有增加的所以我您回去看過去的這個影像的話我只是說明一下有兩個兩種的知道知道這我理解請說"},{"start":11383.917,"end":11399.357,"text":"委員好,我來說明一下我們在今年從5天4夜延長到8天7夜的所謂的電腦輔助指揮所演練因為今年的威脅,其實共軍有可能由嚴轉戰的這個狀況"},{"start":11402.13,"end":11428.901,"text":"由嚴轉戰,你們的判斷是有這樣的可能性?是,從前年的他們的聯合軍事行動到近期的所謂的立建2024A其實甚至他們在現階段在我們周邊的這些的戰備警巡其實就是很多的專家學者其實都有提出來說是一種溫水煮青蛙或者說是一直不斷的切香腸的戰術"},{"start":11430.121,"end":11455.895,"text":"其實我們逐漸的看出來說他具備了所謂的由演轉戰的這個能力所以我們這一次在漢光演習的時候我們就著重在幾個重點第一個國軍如何從灰色地帶能夠快速的轉換成為備戰這個階段我們大概就增加了一到兩日的一個操演的過程這個是指實際操演不是指電腦模擬"},{"start":11457.135,"end":11481.161,"text":"電腦模擬的部分電腦模擬其實有更多的一些的可以進入到實際的一個狀況然後接下來另外一個也就是說我們除了一個從灰色地帶進到防衛作戰的這一個演練是一個我們增加的第二個我們如何快速的讓國軍從一個在平時的狀態轉換成為暫時的狀態"},{"start":11486.242,"end":11507.399,"text":"從前我們的演習可能是直接進入所謂的這個暫時的狀態就開始執行後面的但這一個變成我們國軍的轉換是非常重要的所以這也是我們演練的重點因為我們國軍一般來講我們是講的是這個這個有沒有包含是義務役的部分的轉換"},{"start":11509.909,"end":11534.181,"text":"國軍因為國軍我們分成義務役跟志願役嘛對不對那國軍整體我們都是一起講的所以我想跟您確認一下您剛說快速的這個轉換的過程當中是只有包含我們的志願役的士官兵還是也包含了義務役的部分委員這個裡面區分兩部分第一個部分就是我們現在的所謂的常備部隊也就是我們平時所"},{"start":11536.516,"end":11537.376,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":11551.901,"end":11562.144,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":11571.886,"end":11594.872,"text":"OK了解了那還有其他部分嗎?完成這個部分之後我們就按照第三個重點就是按照共軍的攻台的可能行動而且隨著他的一個戰力不斷的這個這個增長我們調整了我們很多的作戰的一些的思維所以我們在這一次我們為什麼要八天七夜"},{"start":11595.672,"end":11616.695,"text":"用八天七夜才有足夠的時間把每一個階段能夠非常扎實的去做一個驗證當然我們很支持那再來想問一個就是說先前我也問過邱部長同樣的問題是在這一次的漢光演習裡面是不是也增加了與盟軍共同怎麼樣快速協防的相關項目"},{"start":11619.226,"end":11645.143,"text":"方委員這個可能我們都不宜在公開場合可是上次是邱普長講的你們這樣子上次不是我上次我想這個部分確實不宜在公開的場合好啦那我跟您說一下好了你們這樣很可愛喔因為上次是我問他說為什麼要改八天七耶然後他在這個備詢台上說那是因為要增加跟盟軍的演練所以其實是你們說的不是我"},{"start":11645.543,"end":11669.403,"text":"我是問問題的人那你們是回答問題的人但沒有關係不宜說的都不宜說但上次我從質詢台裡面聽到你們備詢台上面的長官們說過了所以我只是再確認一次而已但既然這次改成不宜說那就不說了好嗎沒有要為難大家的意思那接下來我想問一下我們的國軍是為哪一個國家而戰"},{"start":11671.98,"end":11696.228,"text":"這應該是部長我們來回答的為中華民國而戰為中華民國而戰對不對可是問題是我們的賴清德賴總統突然說中華民國也是台獨那請問我們可以解釋說我們的國軍也是為了台獨而戰嗎?能做這樣的解釋嗎?我想每一個國軍都為國家效忠為人民效忠那我們的國家是中華民國還是台獨呢?"},{"start":11697.481,"end":11717.243,"text":"我們是中華民國啊。我想總統的意思是說,在中國的眼裡面,你捍衛中華民國的主權也是一種態度。我完全懂。但是我在這裡我也要特別說,中華人民共和國說了什麼是他中華民國家的事。"},{"start":11717.944,"end":11742.239,"text":"我們中華民國說了什麼是我們中華民國的事而且我相信我們的國軍也有這樣的氣魄要一起為中華民國而戰我相信是這樣的我們的歷史我們的精神我們對國家的熱愛我覺得我們的所有的國軍全民的同胞所有中華民國的國民都會一致的來支持但是中華人民共和國他認為是怎樣那是他家的事"},{"start":11742.779,"end":11753.012,"text":"我覺得我們不需要聽他,難道他叫我們去吃屎,我們要吃屎啊?誰理他啊?所以我這裡要講,來我們看下一張所以過去包含我們顏德發部長、包含我們邱國正部長、包含我們像吳斯懷將軍、馮世寬他們都講了"},{"start":11762.122,"end":11783.733,"text":"國軍不為台獨而戰。中華民國國軍是為中華民國而戰。我想要請問一下顧部長您對這件事情的看法可不可以重述一次讓我們知道我們新任的國防部的部長對這個事情您的具體的態度是什麼?我想每一個國軍都會國家效忠、為人民效忠。"},{"start":11784.113,"end":11804.335,"text":"那中華民國現在有效的統治區域就是臺澎金馬2300萬的人民他們一定會為2300萬人民的現存的民主自由生活方式而戰那我們的首要目標也是基於備戰才能避戰我們一定要維護臺海的區域和平穩定這就是我們現在的基本的態度"},{"start":11804.995,"end":11826.974,"text":"所以中華人民共和國的說法,我們中華民國不需要採納,不需要相信,不需要去把中華人民共和國的話塞到我們自己台灣人、中華民國人的嘴巴裡。但是總統的意思應該就是在講說中共的態度它其實就是如此,就是你主張為中華民國而戰。"},{"start":11829.496,"end":11854.795,"text":"在他的眼裏面,因為他剛剛發佈了對於台獨分子的這個制裁的22條的意見那在這個意見裏面,所以總統才會解釋就是說你主張為中華民國而戰在中華人民共和國的眼中裏面他也是一種台獨好,當然啦,我希望因為您也不是賴總統所以我不想逼迫您我知道您沒有辦法代表他發言但是我要再一次強調"},{"start":11855.976,"end":11876.885,"text":"中華民國就是中華民國我們的國軍是為中華民國而戰我們國軍不是為台獨而戰中華人民共和國要說中華民國是誰是台獨不是台獨那是他家的事那不是我們家的事我們就是為了我們的國家奮勇向前而且我相信我們所有的國軍弟兄我相信我們的國防部長我相信我們的參謀總長都是秉持同樣的態度"},{"start":11883.087,"end":11909.459,"text":"只有這樣我們中華民國才能夠團結在一起所以不管是過去的顏德發不管是過去的邱國正以及我相信顧部長您的想法跟過去或許在做了部長之後會有一些轉變我們希望看到的是這八天七夜的演習裡面我們所有的國軍一起努力為中華民國而戰必戰是最優先的我們不希望看到兩岸之間生靈塗炭"},{"start":11910.74,"end":11935.131,"text":"但我們也要準備好,如果今天真的發生任何狀況的時候,我們是有在準備好的情況之下,能夠保家衛國,可以嗎?是,我想每一個國軍都願意為生活在這一片土地的2300萬人民,來他的民主自由生活方式的一個維繫,來有效的防衛,進行這個鞏固國家安全。謝謝部長,謝謝參謀總長。謝謝。"},{"start":11941.834,"end":11963.71,"text":"好,接下來請林益君委員上台諮詢。謝謝主席,有請顧部長。請顧部長。"},{"start":11972.904,"end":11993.098,"text":"是林委員好顧部長好本次漢光四十號演習有幾個比較重大的變革包括取消攻擊軍的角色還有取消預演以及演習的時間和地點不受限在取消預演和取消演習時間的地點方面大概可以預期會有不少的混亂和錯誤擺出的"},{"start":11995.259,"end":12003.526,"text":"人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等"},{"start":12011.172,"end":12012.894,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":12028.53,"end":12031.511,"text":"韓官演習時兵操演的部分取消了攻擊軍的角色。那請問部長這有兩個問題。第一個是,時兵對抗演習的目的是分出勝負還是考核野戰部隊整體的作戰表現,並且驗證計劃在限地實施時有無問題和效果。"},{"start":12049.96,"end":12076.535,"text":"我想應該講漢光這個實兵就實兵驗證的這個層級就是要來驗證實戰訓練的成果然後來誘導這個三軍的各級部隊來執行聯合作戰計畫的這個演練那所以目的當然就是要檢驗這個平時訓練的成果然後能不能夠遂行這一個聯合作戰計畫這樣"},{"start":12078.476,"end":12084.703,"text":"那第二個問題就是你覺得電腦兵推跟實兵對抗演習是否可以互相取代呢?"},{"start":12085.271,"end":12106.34,"text":"沒有,這個各有各的功能,各有各的功能。這個電腦兵棋的推演是很重要的,因為它是到一個甚至對象,這到戰役層級我們來做。那一般的士兵演練我們是到了這個履級以下,戰術層級的,應該是這樣講。"},{"start":12109.808,"end":12136.894,"text":"過去我們漢光演習其實時兵操演的都有紅藍軍的對抗嘛最後其實到時候最被詬病的就是每次都是照著藍軍必勝的特定的劇本在走然後表演的性質比較濃厚但北席認為其實這次把攻擊軍的這個角色拿掉恐怕會有一點失去演練的這個整個意義因為時兵對抗演習的目的其實不在勝負而是在於驗證兵推時"},{"start":12137.794,"end":12146.52,"text":"人等24人、委員王鴻薇等2人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等24人等"},{"start":12165.151,"end":12166.753,"text":"國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條之一條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":12189.975,"end":12211.449,"text":"我們實兵對抗的操演,我們一直都有,三軍都有,包含剛剛紅委員所提到的陸軍長青操演,他都有。第二點跟您報告,漢光的實兵,他主要包含部長剛剛所說明的,來驗證我們的實戰化訓練,他最重要是驗證我的孤彎作戰計畫。"},{"start":12212.99,"end":12239.318,"text":"那我們這次只有採取少部分海上跟空中兵力當任假設敵那傳統以往他都用特戰部隊或者像總長所講陸戰隊來擔任一個假設敵但是他自己在戰時任務我們要利用這段時間讓他在他的作戰任務他的作戰地境來磨練他的作戰計畫同時讓官兵守忍他的作戰場域所以我們基於這個原因他是跟沒有事"},{"start":12239.938,"end":12259.345,"text":"我們傳統這種對抗性的演練在這邊特別跟委員做個說明年度的對抗性演練還是會存在的只是我們這一次漢光要讓所有的部隊特別是地面部隊讓他所有的部隊都落實就是說除了有必要的病例之外呢"},{"start":12260.206,"end":12263.809,"text":"其他都要落實演練自己的防衛作戰任務,讓他熟悉這個戰場環境跟戰鬥手續。"},{"start":12279.242,"end":12301.579,"text":"對,像剛才說的長青操演這個這個對抗演習之外其實年度漢光其實其實他是非常是國軍很難得的模擬解放軍陸海空三七聯合進犯的一個大規模的演習所以其實部長可能是還是要考慮一下是不是要保留一下那個實兵對抗啊其實我本身也我也覺得我有一個建議啦如果考量到我們的"},{"start":12302.7,"end":12307.281,"text":"行特部還有戰車登陸大隊這些需要熟悉戰時的任務的話其實也可以縮小紅軍的規模譬如旅籍的規模擔任紅軍的時候是不是可以改成營籍還是排籍每年輪流這樣擔任紅軍其實這樣從聯兵裡可以抽掉一些單位出來一起扮演紅軍其實這樣在實兵驗證還有熟悉戰時任務上其實都是可以兼顧到的所以部長的話看要不要回去研議看看"},{"start":12332.065,"end":12340.09,"text":"因為我覺得兵棋推演還有軍事上面的演習的輸贏其實不重要實際上對手能力越強其實越能磨練出我們的戰鬥力而且越困難的處境想定更能激發指揮官將資源發揮到最大的效果所以北席這邊其實對部長領帶領國軍改革還有把所有的訓練推向實戰化其實有很高的期待希望我們能夠做到"},{"start":12359.801,"end":12362.604,"text":"被戰而不畏戰、人戰而不求戰。謝謝委員的指導。現在我還有一個問題想要請教部長。今年漢光演習的時序是什麼?你說時間嗎?不是的,時序是什麼?從戰力保準、整體防空、海上聯合結集到這個國土防衛作戰。"},{"start":12384.829,"end":12408.927,"text":"那這次漢光演習雖然沒有納入戰備跑道的起降,但本行是要特別提醒一下部長,就是戰力保存的階段,我們空軍的戰力保存成效,其實是有關作戰的人力。要是喪失了空優,其實台海防衛會陷入非常不利的局面。所以請教部長說目前我們空軍戰力保存有哪些手段呢?這個是不是請空軍人員?"},{"start":12412.984,"end":12433.407,"text":"委員好 我是空軍參謀長曹敬平有關戰力保存的手段其實分成不同的針對不同的載具有不同的方法包括空中的飛行器還有機場的分散部署我們其他還有包括地面的防衛部隊戰術雷達它都有不同的方式在執行按照我們戰術目的來分別規劃"},{"start":12435.288,"end":12461.579,"text":"其實共軍很了解空優的重要性所以我們機場跑道都是共軍第一打擊的目標所以我們現在算出他們可以算出每一個波次要用多少的飛彈去打所以才就會癱瘓我們的整個機場所以現在使用公路的戰備跑道是空軍重要的戰力保存的手段那部長知道我們這五條公路的戰備跑道過去有幾次的起降演習嗎?"},{"start":12466.543,"end":12473.609,"text":"五個戰備道過去在加東跟民雄曾經做過兩次,其他的各段分別做過一次。"},{"start":12477.457,"end":12502.017,"text":"所以其實空軍的戰力保存是非常重要的所以每次戰備道的開設其實很不容易也不方便但戰備道的起降其實如果沒有納入國軍的演習那這樣的話五條戰備道過去如果做只做過七次的起降的演習在每一個戰備道大約就是只有一次還是兩次而已這樣看來都是停留在驗證的階段這樣我講應該沒有錯吧"},{"start":12504.719,"end":12531.381,"text":"報告我來補充報告一下其實戰備道我們一般大家一般比較常接觸的就聽到公路戰備道其實戰備道有兩個等級一個叫做機場戰備道一個叫公路戰備道所以在每個機場裡面也有戰備道的設置那我們平常為了要保持熟練在機場戰備道的部分盡量多演練但是在公路戰備道部分盡量減少擾民的程度因為他影響程度比較大"},{"start":12531.781,"end":12535.483,"text":"所會配合每年的這演習的構想按照需求來規劃。其實我這樣看起降機種跟數量其實有發現到每次的起降演習基本上都是三種型號還有主力戰機各一架還有再加上鷹眼的預演機但是我們空軍未來可能會有超過200架的F16還有130架的IDF跟50幾架的幻象"},{"start":12555.214,"end":12575.591,"text":"那三型的主力戰機總共有380架左右。如果台海發生衝突的時候,空軍要做戰力保存的話,這五條戰備道會只有15架的戰機起降嗎?這樣空軍的戰力保存實戰化是不是有很大的進步呢?有很大進步空間需要改善呢?"},{"start":12576.291,"end":12603.325,"text":"是的委員您說的這個計算的依據看起來是有道理但是呢其實戰力保存的手段不是都是完全靠公路戰備道來執行有其他方式來配套那公路戰備道是可以提供他在必要時候做戰機起降跟必要的整補來支應後續的作戰謝謝委員指導好謝謝還是希望能夠做好整個可能性的整個推演然後維持國防戰力保護我們台灣人民的安全好謝謝"},{"start":12610.517,"end":12613.68,"text":"接下來請翁曉琳委員上台質詢請部長還有梅總長"},{"start":12633.103,"end":12633.423,"text":"國軍因應作戰的因果"},{"start":12651.498,"end":12674.549,"text":"則應處理的一些作為。那部長您是管政策,那總長則是管作戰。所以在這裡我想請問總長,如果在戰時發生了有關兵、巨戰、怯戰、逃亡、抗命等等這些犯罪行為,那國防部要怎麼處理?還有或是這個作戰總部這邊要怎麼處理?"},{"start":12676.782,"end":12699.842,"text":"委員好,謝謝您的關切。就我個人其實是受部長的命令來執行做這些的軍事指揮的任務。那我們在如果說是有官兵所謂的您所談到的所謂未戰的這樣子的狀況,其實我相信在戰場這麼嚴峻可能也是以"},{"start":12701.152,"end":12703.894,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":12728.57,"end":12746.634,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王�"},{"start":12758.702,"end":12783.036,"text":"這個部分有,細節我請法律司司長跟您做個報告。好,請問你們演練些什麼?呃,我也好,我是法律司司長。這一次我們是巡禮,我們每一次的漢光演習,我們都會開設暫時的臨時法庭。我們會演練現在編配在部隊的人員,然後到我們指定的地點去開設臨時法庭,然後針對一些相關的案例來演練他們暫時必須要有的偵查跟審判的一個作為。"},{"start":12783.576,"end":12803.875,"text":"是,謝謝市長的這說明啊。那麼可是呢我們知道,其實從103年軍事審判法修法之後啊,軍事審判機關都已經虛極化了。大部分的軍法人員都已經編配到各個部隊裡面去當法務人員。那麼所以呢就現在的軍法官的配置的員額是足夠的嗎?"},{"start":12806.322,"end":12831.492,"text":"報告委員,我們有蓋算過,就是在台灣的整個作戰區跟作戰分區,我們要開設多少個臨時的審判庭跟臨時的偵察庭,它相關的數量所需要的人員跟我們現在有可以去做這件事情的相關的人員大約是蓋等。未來或許會減少,但是我們會用那個後備召集的方式,再用招的方式把人員再招回來。"},{"start":12831.892,"end":12854.918,"text":"好,我要講的就是說其實從101年到現在已經有12年都沒有招考過軍法官了,軍法官考試都沒有舉辦,那其實可以看得出來就是軍法官的人力是不足的,因為你們現在的編配比是多少?就是你們現在編制跟現有緣額的比例是多少?當然我們這個有一定的落差啦,是。落差有高達五成以上嗎?"},{"start":12855.936,"end":12867.24,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、�"},{"start":12881.525,"end":12909.057,"text":"有能力可以去做相關的偵查審判的工作嗎?報告委員如果說以人力來講的話我們過去這樣子編配看起來的話是目前大概是蓋的那至於能力的部分我們就只有透過平常的一些訓練我們每年在我們自己有自訓那另外也有派那個就是資源的那個檢查事務官他們去從事一些相關一些實務工作他們也有借調的那他們也有做從事"},{"start":12909.377,"end":12912.14,"text":"我必須要打個比方這個就有點像是一個從來沒有飛行過沒有飛行訓練的飛行員一旦發生戰事的時候你要叫他立刻開戰機這其實沒有實際上平常就在做的偵查審判工作那到了真的發生狀況的時候是根本沒有辦法去處理我們剛剛講的那些有"},{"start":12933.981,"end":12944.311,"text":"具戰、怯戰、逃亡、抗命等犯罪行為的士兵所以在這邊我想請教部長請問一下部長認不認為其實我們應該要補足軍法官的這個員額"},{"start":12947.152,"end":12956.241,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":12966.249,"end":12983.477,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委"},{"start":12983.697,"end":13011.92,"text":"那日後的話我想我們會納入這個相關的一個考量來做因為部長您新上任本席是非常重視有關於軍法人力的這個議題我希望就是說國防部能夠再恢復軍法官的考試這個養兵千日用在一時我們不能說等到真的發生狀況的時候找不到軍法官或是就算有軍法官他也沒有一個實際的一個經驗"},{"start":13013.641,"end":13030.909,"text":"到時候整個的軍紀會是混亂的我覺得這個問題是非常嚴重那看起來你們在這次漢光演習裡面其實並沒有把這個已經出現的問題納入通盤的思考如果說真的是要讓司法院的法官未來要一起加入暫時審判的話其實在整個的演習規劃裡面就應該要有相關的安排"},{"start":13037.325,"end":13063.213,"text":"我們跟委員報告兩點第一點就是說即使我們現在召考軍法官那也要能夠有審判的經驗那因為現在沒有這個審判的一個機制存在所以他的經驗沒有辦法累積那第二個我們要跟審判員來協調如何讓我們的這些軍法官、既有軍法官或者是我們考進來的法務官能夠接受相關的訓練然後另外再跟審判員協調如何能夠在暫時的時候來調用這個審判員的能力來進行"},{"start":13066.874,"end":13089.541,"text":"謝謝部長的說明,因為我想您是法律背景出身,所以您很了解就是整個的法律人員的這個養成,司法人員的養成。但是很重要的前提還是要先恢復軍法官的考試,要有人進來你才有辦法訓練。以上就是本期希望在很快的時間裡面就可以看到國防部可以跟考試院一起趕快再合辦軍法官考試,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":13096.994,"end":13123.246,"text":"謝謝接下來請賴士寶委員、賴士寶、賴士寶委員不在請楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在請何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在請林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在請鄭正前、鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在請林思敏、林思敏、林思敏委員不在請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":13124.406,"end":13125.726,"text":"徐清穎委員上臺質詢。"},{"start":13145.924,"end":13171.311,"text":"部長好今天我們的專題報告是漢光四十號演習的規劃情形首先本席先表達我們非常支持國軍的防衛訓練但是呢在國軍防衛訓練的時候我們民眾的權益我們也希望部長可以了解聽一下我們第一線第一線的民眾的心聲"},{"start":13174.032,"end":13191.926,"text":"當然我們現在因為配合執政黨的抗中保台所以空軍越來越繁忙、頻繁的起降所以擾民的頻率也增加了首先本席在這裡要先跟部長溝通一個觀念"},{"start":13192.927,"end":13206.163,"text":"就是說我們的這個噪音你應該可以了解現代人忍受噪音的容忍度跟5年前、10年前甚至20年前是不一樣的這點部長您了解嗎?應該認同吧?"},{"start":13208.677,"end":13230.163,"text":"我的了解就是說確實我們現在面對的敵情嚴峻那空軍起降的次數是增加那時間上可能也沒有辦法因為他有時候甚至連夜間都會過來所以確實造成這個民眾在對民眾的有一些干擾那這一點要請民眾能夠諒解"},{"start":13232.445,"end":13246.705,"text":"對啦,民眾可以諒解啦,但是國防部這邊可以對民眾的補償、補助,民眾也希望國防部能夠多體恤啦。我了解是有這個詳情是不是行?對,來本席接著講。"},{"start":13248.027,"end":13270.607,"text":"我們空軍司令部有說民國92年1月8日以前於飛機航道下有房屋使用執照合於規定者每戶補助門窗及冷氣3萬元但是92年以後新蓋的房子那因為噪音管制法已經修法而且法令已經公告所以不再補助範圍內"},{"start":13272.128,"end":13301.27,"text":"那這點本席要跟部長來溝通就是說請問誰會願意住在每天被飛機噪音影響的地方那當然有幾種可能一種就是他經濟能力有限他只好買在那裡那另一種就是他92年買的時候他根本不知道他是在管制區內所以呢我們因為92年那時候的飛機起降情況跟我們現在也是不一樣嘛"},{"start":13301.89,"end":13319.573,"text":"所以那個補助沿用那麼久之前的是不是我們可以民眾大家我一直強調我們的立場我們支持我們國軍防衛訓練但是民眾的權益是不是可以請部長這個部分也能夠幫忙"},{"start":13322.676,"end":13343.613,"text":"委員好,我是空軍參謀長曹俊平。其實我們的噪音補助跟時間或者是其他的飛機機種是沒有關係,是跟噪音的程度有關係。所以它的噪音只要按照我們監測,達到噪音的標準,它就會按照這個。講得好,講得好。其實這個噪音的程度,我也要請部長,還有您說您是?我是空軍參謀長。參謀長。"},{"start":13346.775,"end":13365.724,"text":"我們聽過一句話叫做滴水穿石那你知道一滴水一滴水誰怕它不怕嘛怕的是驚濤駭浪海嘯對不對可是滴水穿石它只要一直滴一直滴一直滴它可以穿石所以噪音的分貝數啊"},{"start":13367.605,"end":13392.061,"text":"在不到那個分配那麼高的時候好像耳朵可以忍受但是如果長時間長期有多少人會崩潰這一塊要納入要考量啊所以包含你說我們這個重裝備我們背個幾十公斤在身上可以啊但是持續一年我跟你講身體絕對變形"},{"start":13393.7,"end":13395.962,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":13412.617,"end":13424.147,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":13438.88,"end":13465.005,"text":"依據空軍補助的村裡還有一個很有趣的現象我們新竹縣虎口鄉有一個鳳凰村鳳凰村隔壁是鳳山村鄉鄰嘛你鳳山村有補助但是鳳凰村就在鳳山村旁邊接近鳳山村的它的噪音跟鳳山村一樣但是鳳凰村沒有補助所以這一個部分"},{"start":13465.885,"end":13481.906,"text":"事不事可以重新來檢視?大委員其實只要地方任何時候有需求都可以提出來我們可以去做補監測這個動作剛剛講到監測的我們真的要拜託一下你不能說比如說80分貝假設以80分貝"},{"start":13484.409,"end":13507.775,"text":"那72分貝還不到80分貝但是他是持續不斷持續不斷不要講別的本席的聲音大一點10分鐘我在場很多人都受不了何況是我們飛機起降的聲音所以這一塊部長您今天在這一定要重視還有我們的總長拜託再來再來再來就是我們陸軍啊"},{"start":13509.736,"end":13533.476,"text":"就是空軍也可以參考一下陸軍航空六動腰旅的做法就是他改發放補償金給涉及滿一年在管制區的每一位鄉親那本席提到這個那個陸軍的沒關係你可以就座我只是說空軍是不是可以比照陸軍這種體恤民眾的方式"},{"start":13537.299,"end":13564.464,"text":"趙雲補助他有兩種方式可以執行一個是設施的補償另外一個是現金的補助但他執行的方式是由地方政府還有給個人的補償包委員您聽我說一下其實他執行的方式是由地方政府提出來之後經過趙改會討論同意之後由地方政府同意來執行那每個地方的這個執行方式在每次都會請地方政府先要看這個第一個一個輪次執行完畢的時候要不要更改"},{"start":13565.264,"end":13591.678,"text":"其實本席都了解我為什麼今天花這個時間來特別講這個那就一定是你們沒有聽到地方的聲音地方執行沒有辦法嘛所以才要立委在這裡講嘛讓部長在這邊站了一下嘛所以你們這塊就要清楚那今天本席講了以後當然您說的這個程序我們會再跑一次可不可以不要讓我們失望不要讓民眾失望"},{"start":13592.538,"end":13593.479,"text":"謝謝主席。我請國防部部長。請顧部長。"},{"start":13625.689,"end":13650.226,"text":"吳委員好部長好部長上次我在總質詢的時候來向您請教我們國軍改革的議題那後續呢我陸續看到我們國防外交委員會有很多委員在關切就是我們其中一項改革是休假免通報制度但是很多委員在關心說聽說但實質上落實下去還是有很多會變成是基層的官兵被要求要"},{"start":13651.407,"end":13666.981,"text":"主動來回報。那部長您當時的回答是說你有聽到相關的狀況。請問部長後續我們有沒有來追蹤怎麼樣來改善、落實這個改革。我想我已經要求這個所有的單位那麼關於這個"},{"start":13670.359,"end":13692.244,"text":"要在官兵就休假離營之前就完成相關安全宣導以外,就是要律定就是說休假的官兵遇到狀況才要主動回報,那這個我想在例如我們已經以這個令班這個全軍距離執行了,那如果說有任何的狀況我會納入這個"},{"start":13694.444,"end":13695.946,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":13713.188,"end":13739.362,"text":"遇到狀況當然就是遇到他需要有碰到一些協助的要需要我們來進行有需要協助的對的時候才需要來回報對因為回報是為了我們要能夠來協助協助他不然我們不清楚他的狀況是好謝謝那我們也希望說這樣的改革能夠繼續來落實那這一次是社會各界大家都很關心啊我們的漢光四十號演習"},{"start":13740.478,"end":13767.339,"text":"要採用一個新的方式我看了媒體的報導下了一些標題有些媒體說漢光野心不演了漢光野心來真的那這一次其實主要是說我們去改變了以往是預演展示的形式改以無劇本去中心化的方式來進行我看到國防部的說法是說這樣會比較貼近我們實兵的操演那這是不是就跟我們取消刺槍術取消踢陣不一樣"},{"start":13767.719,"end":13784.292,"text":"我們希望整體的國軍可以朝向跟去除形式主義化實戰訓練化的方式來進行的我們的想法是怎麼樣對我們主要的目的就是在驗證他們這個平時這個實戰化訓練的成果以及他們是不是能夠執行聯合作戰計畫"},{"start":13785.413,"end":13807.636,"text":"那所謂無劇本並不是說漫天的這個方式可以下令這個說任何的一個操演,他還是要由統裁部依照抵可能行動來下一個想定的主軸那在這個主軸之下各級的這個指揮官、主管他就要按照他的任務然後來做一個沒有先"},{"start":13809.537,"end":13832.784,"text":"就直接先告訴他說這要怎麼樣怎麼樣,他就照劇本這樣抄但是他這一個依照他的任務範圍之內他進行這樣子的一個連續性的一個下達這些科目的抄演然後來展現他這個平時訓練然後還有我們的聯合作案計畫是不是能夠到位這樣子"},{"start":13833.485,"end":13849.039,"text":"那其中去中心化的這個模式是指什麼樣的方式?去中心化就是說過去都是下面就是在等上面的依令嘛那現在就是說我們要假設說這個指管的系統可能會斷掉"},{"start":13850.08,"end":13873.323,"text":"那他就要知道說上級的任務是什麼所以在這樣子的時候他要理解他要完成的任務是什麼所以即使是沒有上面的指管沒有上面的指揮下來他還是知道他應該要的任務是什麼然後他結合這個交戰規則他要去讓他能夠自行決策來果斷的執行他應該要完成的任務"},{"start":13873.923,"end":13873.943,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":13893.127,"end":13899.171,"text":"我要扛責任等等所以我想我們這一次示範這個去中心化也要給每一個決策層級充分的支持讓他們能夠像部長你剛剛講的能夠勇敢果斷的來決策才是我們要達到的事情對這個軍中的文化我們要來逐步的透過這樣的演習來加以不斷的改變然後這樣的一個授權之後然後來自行決策果斷執行這樣子的一個層面"},{"start":13920.223,"end":13943.856,"text":"必須要透過這樣的一個演練來逐步的讓他們能夠理解而不是單純的一直等待上級的或者是整個到達這個我們講說最高的指揮層級給他一個下命令那下面才能夠進行作戰這樣子的一個思維的模式我想在第一次演練的時候一定會有一些狀況但是我們不斷透過這樣子演練應該會讓這個"},{"start":13948.279,"end":13966.141,"text":"國軍的這個戰力會有效的提升是,我們這次演習當中很重要一部分也包括了全民防衛動員能量那我們賴清德總統也成立了全社會防衛任性委員會所以全民防衛是絕對是我們未來很重要的一環那我過去有發現說因為我目前是國防部的全動署"},{"start":13967.202,"end":13995.179,"text":"是在我們行政院這個匯報當中的幕僚單位但是我們的基層民防他有我們的義消、義警包括民防像我們的以萬華區來說我們的民防常訓每年常訓我們每年都去的那也謝謝像我們上校都會在我們常訓課程當中來幫我們上全民國防的議題但是我們的權動署、國防部如何跟我們警政署、消防署這些相關的跨部會的單位能夠有一個協調的機制讓我們的這個全民防衛"},{"start":13995.839,"end":14014.521,"text":"在暫時的時候,倘若是權動署要來指揮,但在平時怎麼樣有一個更好的協調?我想權動署只是作為一個執行秘書的一個單位。如果就整個跨部會的這樣全社會防衛的韌性,總統現在也成立一個委員會,那另外在行政院也有政委來做跨部會的協調。"},{"start":14015.442,"end":14031.199,"text":"那我的理解是我在國安會的期間國安會也要負責做這方面的協調工作那國安部作為配合這一個全社會防疫韌性建構裡面的一環那國安部就會統整這個剛剛提到了這些相關的"},{"start":14032.1,"end":14047.845,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委"},{"start":14059.645,"end":14076.529,"text":"可能是那一些比較無據本事的一些推演那關鍵基礎設施的房屋比如說行政有國土辦然後等等那他到各目的事業主管機關不管有水電等等他也要可能會遭受一些"},{"start":14077.73,"end":14081.072,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":14110.001,"end":14131.615,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢。主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請顧部長。請顧部長。需要的可能是空軍人員陪同。請。請空軍參謀長。"},{"start":14139.73,"end":14162.479,"text":"部長,過去您看過漢光演習嗎?幾次?有沒有超過五次?我講的是過去啦,現在是漢光四十號啦。漢光演習在屏東,你是四次。我當副市長你當了八年啦,看的次數可能不下於你。"},{"start":14163.679,"end":14186.514,"text":"過去我們屏東的恆春地區、恆春半島地區都有一個民意代表有一點半開玩笑的建議說漢光演習火力展示很好看應該把它規劃成一個觀光資源照來觀光客尤其是在冬天落山峰的時候請漢光演習移到那個冬季落山峰來執行我們可以讓觀光客來參觀漢光演習你覺得這樣的說法您有覺得什麼地方怪怪的嗎?"},{"start":14188.955,"end":14213.436,"text":"我印象很深刻是有一次就是他有一個漢光演習的時候火力展示,那我們就在那個很大的一個台子上面,參觀台上面,那這個火力的展示是還蠻威武的,但是很明顯的是一種展示性、表演性質的一種。是,從漢光十一號之後呢,漢光演習在地方人看起來是一種火力展示,是一個秀。"},{"start":14214.016,"end":14226.936,"text":"而不是一個實戰所以對這次部長只是要做實戰化的一個趨勢大家很肯定好但是接下來我們有更務實的說法來請看請問一下部長過去共軍共機共建老台的航機當中哪些地方比較常被騷擾哪些地方比較少被騷擾"},{"start":14229.607,"end":14246.328,"text":"現在已經沒有辦法做這樣子的一個區隔了,過去是越過中線。其實我們做過統計往下看,其實大概是巴士海峽涵蓋我國跟菲律賓的防空識別區ADIZ,這個部分他們比較少去過去,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":14247.301,"end":14275.038,"text":"有沒有這樣的統計?這個地方我們所知道的,據我們所知道的內情人士說這個地方,為什麼?因為你當過負責國安,因為容易跟菲律賓引起緊張,是不是這樣子?可是我們的AZR的西南面,現在跟東南面他們也都常見。對,但是靠巴士海峽這邊呢,過去比較少來往下看。所以就一個問題啦,如果未來兩岸有進行到這個開戰的情況,我們西部的戰機是不是會戰力移轉到東部去?"},{"start":14277.932,"end":14295.548,"text":"我們會分散式的配置,但是詳細的情況我想可能不宜…當然,但是我們知道這個戰力移轉是很重要的,那因為我屏東有一個戰略空軍,就是六聯隊,六聯隊跟其他的聯隊、戰鬥機聯隊不太一樣,請問一下如果他戰力保存、戰力轉進要到哪裡去?"},{"start":14296.809,"end":14301.155,"text":"其實有沒有可能往其他的國家,譬如說菲律賓,其實這不是沒有可能的。"},{"start":14312.47,"end":14337.129,"text":"過去我們的C13棟曾經去做過人道救援飛到菲律賓飛到更遠的國家都有去過所以這邊請你思考一點就是說當未來遇到這樣子狀況的時候我們可能我們的戰力保存需要各種的可能性都要考量進去菲律賓也不視為是一個未來可以戰略上結盟的地方這個時候屏東有個武里亭機場啊它可能就是一個在主跑道被破壞的情況下它一個被降跑道有沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":14339.107,"end":14356.107,"text":"你們對於屏東武里勤機場、恆春武里勤有沒有了解?我的了解是武里勤機場的跑道的長度是不夠的。過去我們屏東想要發展觀光,一直希望把它跑道方向移轉,避免落山風。第二是長度加強,讓大型客機可以降。後來發現都是一場夢。為什麼?"},{"start":14359.17,"end":14375.385,"text":"因為他那裡實在不適合大型的客機起降但是對於我們空軍戰機他的耐候性上來講跑道只要適度的延伸就可以作為我們六連隊各項戰略空軍機種的停降的一個備援跑道請問空軍看法怎麼樣"},{"start":14378.837,"end":14402.13,"text":"報告委員您這個提議我們大概還要再納入更周延的考量,因為到過去沒有這樣的研究,我們未來再做質詢再跟您報告。我們連戰力移轉有沒有可能考慮要用菲律賓,這個都要列入你們的思考。最後,部長。其實呢,除了作戰之外,我們來看一下,台灣的空港、台灣的機場,不是只有空軍在使用,是不是有民航機在使用,是不是有貨機在使用。"},{"start":14403.719,"end":14406.341,"text":"民航機場起降幾年前培洛西萊是降在哪個機場?"},{"start":14416.828,"end":14433.341,"text":"桃園機場離對岸很近嘛他一隻手伸出來就扼住你的掐住你的咽喉了嘛所以這個時候呢作為一個客機的主要起降機場桃園機場在暫時或面對經濟封鎖的時候他有很高的一個被封鎖性但是呢台灣其實啊按照某位名人的說法"},{"start":14433.801,"end":14461.013,"text":"只要貨能貨出去人進來人沒有進來沒關係台灣的半導體晶片能夠出口我們就比較不擔心經濟封鎖請問部長你知道台灣的晶片是坐飛機坐船還是怎麼樣用陸運嗎應該大部分用空運用空運對所以一個輸出的出口的空運的國際機場維持台灣在緊張狀態下能夠持續出口很重要你覺得如果出口的貨機機場放在哪裡比較有可能不會被封鎖"},{"start":14462.537,"end":14485.402,"text":"我都給你秀出來了。其實就是跟空軍概念一樣。因為南部的ADS呢,我們比較在平常就會通過一個渠道所用。所以最後兩點呢,請部長簡短的回應。有沒有可能評估恆生機場延伸以作為戰略機種的一個倍降起這樣的可能性?第二個,當面臨經濟火種的時候,如果南部有個貨運機場,是不是比較能夠維持台灣的生產運輸?請簡短回答。"},{"start":14489.421,"end":14510.802,"text":"我只能說我們納入評估的項目,我沒有辦法做一個明確具體的承諾。那你可不可以用一個嘗試性的判斷,有沒有可行性值得你去評估?我們要做,先要做可行性的評估。是的,是的,所以又是請你做可行性評估。以上說的是結合部分的嘗試跟部分的專業所提出來的建議,請部長的慎重考量。"},{"start":14512.904,"end":14522.821,"text":"我在交通委員會在交通部長都多次的提出這一個以出口為導向的國際貨運機場在南部較不易受封鎖的空域裡面去設置的概念好 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氣象署呂國成副署長"},{"start":1826.65,"end":1833.397,"text":"本日進行交通部智慧航安、智慧港灣相關計畫辦理情形專題報告先請林次長報告"},{"start":1844.401,"end":1868.311,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀之貴委員會報告智慧航安、智慧港灣、港口相關計畫的辦理情形所以我先敬請各位委員指教臺灣對外經貿以海運為主航安、港安為海運管理的核心為了接軌國際航安的規範配合離岸風電的政策來確保航行的安全"},{"start":1869.592,"end":1893.073,"text":"並提升港口安全跟作業的效率交通部是以強化智慧創新與多元服務來鞏固海運樞紐地位為目標推動智慧航安跟智慧港灣的相關計畫在智慧航安方面,航港局從109年起推動我國智慧航安服務建置及發展計畫陸續完成我國海事中心及風場航道環博"},{"start":1893.693,"end":1920.118,"text":"交通服務中心VTS的建置工作目前可以全天候來監控周邊海域傳播動態提升海事應變效能另外,為了配合豐電第三階段的區塊開發從113年起肯續推動我國智慧航安服務升級計畫將持續擴充新的豐廠航道VTS中心的功能擴大監控範圍並完善備援的系統,強化航安的韌性"},{"start":1921.358,"end":1938.842,"text":"智慧港安方面,臺灣港務公司從110年開始﹐已經推動臺灣港群智慧轉型計畫﹐運用5G、AIoT等智慧科技﹐希望能打造國際級的智慧港口﹐以提升港區的作業安全跟貨物進出的效率﹐並且維護環境的永續﹐帶動港港產業的數位升級。"},{"start":1942.423,"end":1951.648,"text":"那以下是否請本部航港局葉局長就專案報告的內容來跟各位做詳細的報告進行各位委員指教謝謝現在請航港局葉局長報告"},{"start":1963.945,"end":1984.492,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就智慧航安、智慧港灣港口相關計畫辦理情形進行報告敬請各位委員指教二、智慧航安相關計畫推動辦理情形一、我國智慧航安服務建設暨發展計畫一、109至113年"},{"start":1988.553,"end":2001.52,"text":"本計畫是為接軌國際航安規範．配合離岸風電政策．確保船舶航行安全．並提升海事案件應變效能．經報奉行政院於108年12月2、20日合併辦理．計畫期程至113年．總經費18.72億元．"},{"start":2009.865,"end":2027.382,"text":"計畫主要內容包括建置海事中心暨智慧航安資訊平台系統、建置帳號風場航道傳播交通服務 系統以及辦理基隆海岸電台及臺北任務管制中心設備升級等相關工作"},{"start":2028.483,"end":2051.959,"text":"執行成果主要包括兩個部分．其中海事中心暨智慧航安資訊平臺．已於110年10月30日啟用．迄今已整合6個部會10個單位．25個航安相關系統的資訊．針對海事安全的處置．化被動通報為主動的監控．可針對航行異常的船舶主動來預警．啟動應變準備的時間．由90分鐘縮短為10分鐘．"},{"start":2058.323,"end":2068.306,"text":"海事案件數到112年已降至149件﹐中軌道衛星的搜救接收系統﹐並已於111年的11月29日﹐通過國際衛星輔助搜救組織的審查﹐成為東亞地區第一個通過審驗的國家﹐此外﹐"},{"start":2079.119,"end":2091.024,"text":"張化豐廠VTS中心也在110年10月同時啟用．並於112年12月完成大渡山及雲林兩座雷達站．目前航行"},{"start":2092.608,"end":2115.153,"text":"找到封廠航道的商船的遵循率已達100%封廠海域監控範圍達到673平方公里並預計今年10月完成封廠航道VTS大樓的工程後續將配合離岸封廠的開發持續來擴充VTS系統二、智慧航安監控船舶建造計畫為強化封廠"},{"start":2117.654,"end":2143.428,"text":"以及臺灣周邊海域傳播巡檢的效能．港局提報智慧航安監控傳播建造計畫．經報奉行政院109年7月6號．核准建造港港1號監控傳播．總經費2.68億元．該船配備有衛星通訊360度的全方位．攝影監視系統等先進設備．可全方位、全天候地進行海上的監控．並即時將相關．"},{"start":2147.089,"end":2162.276,"text":"資訊傳回案記．提供災害應變的一個判斷參考．該船已於今年4月30日交船開始服勤．主要停泊基地為臺中港．3.我國智慧航安服務升級計畫．113至1116年．本計畫需為配合離岸風電第三階段區塊開發認測．延續前期計畫持續推動"},{"start":2170.859,"end":2189.091,"text":"智慧航安相關工作於112年6月5日奉行政院合併辦理,總經費19.34億元。計畫主要內容包括一、擴充風場航道VTS中心系統,預計建置4個雷達站,並借接6個鄰近航道風場的監控資訊。"},{"start":2191.152,"end":2211.742,"text":"二、開發智慧航安資訊平臺有關船舶碰撞風險偵測功能﹐辦理GMDSS主系統的升級。三、完善海事中心以及風場航道VTS中心的備援系統﹐來強化我們航安服務的韌性。四、辦理航標管理系統的建置與升級。"},{"start":2212.802,"end":2223.232,"text":"以及第5項要成立智慧航安推動辦公室來掌握最新國際的公約以及先進海事國家做法預期成果包括"},{"start":2224.215,"end":2249.562,"text":"一、封廠航道的監控範圍將由673平方公里擴大至4000平方公里二、提升我們這位航安資訊平臺傳播碰撞預警的準確率並提供更穩定的GMDSS服務同時完備海事中心以及VTS中心的備援系統以提供更穩定可靠的航安服務其他航安設計作為包括"},{"start":2251.382,"end":2272.355,"text":"為強化傳播進出港及飲水安全．港港局每個月都召開港區的安全會議．每季召開海事案件的精進檢討會議．並於今年的2月5號．成立強化飲水安全改善專案．系統性的盤點、相關課題．以及對應的改善策略具體措施．按計來遭遇追蹤犯況"},{"start":2275.778,"end":2298.4,"text":"3.智慧港灣港口相關計畫推動辦理情形臺灣港澳公司為強化臺灣港部國際競爭力應用IoT、物聯網、感知設備、資訊整合、雲端計算、決策分析優化等智慧科技自110年起辦理臺灣港群智慧轉型計畫以提升我國港口作業安全與營運效率"},{"start":2300.221,"end":2314.99,"text":"計畫重點內容包括導入傳播超航智慧警示輔助系統推動國際商港管制門哨全面一化升級港區危險品安全管理系統整合港區設備監控影像"},{"start":2315.911,"end":2340.122,"text":"以及建置港區智慧能源管理系統．推動智慧商情平台建置．升級資產地理資訊系統．以及辦理港港數位化獎勵．輔導港區業者作業的綜合化．執行成果．包括五個主要項目．一,完成整合海氣象資訊等八個系統．自動收集港口營運的動態資料．"},{"start":2341.983,"end":2356.948,"text":"能夠加速異常告警訊息的應變作業。第二,完成國際商港管制門哨全面的一化,車輛通行時間由4分鐘大幅縮短為10秒。三,推動港區智能,"},{"start":2357.828,"end":2358.028,"text":"5.港港產業"},{"start":2382.828,"end":2399.69,"text":"數位轉型獎勵方案．今已有超過30個業者提案．輔導業者投資的金額．已經達到4.6億元．事節與臺灣四面黃海．對外貿易以海運為主．航安、港安為海運核心的首要工作．"},{"start":2400.231,"end":2416.88,"text":"未來交通部、港港局以及港務公司．將持續掌握國際趨勢．運用5G、AIoT等智慧科技．落實港群智慧轉型．帶動港港產業的數位升級以上報告 敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2419.49,"end":2445.815,"text":"現在要進行詢答先宣告一下思想發言時間出席委員6加1分鐘列席委員5分鐘委員發言登記於10點30分截止各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位林國成委員發言"},{"start":2460.974,"end":2463.356,"text":"主席、林次、葉局長"},{"start":2474.74,"end":2498.379,"text":"市長、局長首先我看你業務報告以後也就是等等這些電子跟衛星等等的改變的過程但是事實上來講現在我們在整個導航的部分進入港口現在重要的是誰在引導"},{"start":2500.518,"end":2525.309,"text":"包委員您提的是進港之前對進港進港之前基本上是船自己開開到一定位置後需要各港看他的規定他如果有飲水人的要求他就要飲水人來現在完全進港的時候還是飲水人嘛對不對那所以我現在很冒昧的請教一下我們這整個資訊的設置19億多設計完了以後"},{"start":2529.191,"end":2547.093,"text":"這些飲水人還需不需要?目前我的了解是還需要還是需要他們的專業這是所有的智慧引導也是輔助工人主要還是飲水人嗎?目前為止還是還是這樣嗎?世界主流還是"},{"start":2548.755,"end":2570.345,"text":"他只是把這些電子化跟資訊化這些等等也是做一個港區裡面安全的輔助引導主要還是飲水人報委應該這樣說傳進港之前我們會把港區所有的資訊透過資訊系統給傳讓他也知道整個環境"},{"start":2574.727,"end":2588.137,"text":"現在問題真正在外海裡面當然是不關我們的事但是進了港以後當然我們現在還是主要還是靠這些飲水人他們來引導"},{"start":2590.299,"end":2618.404,"text":"我們的智慧電子設計這等等也是給我們的飲水人是另一種虎斃作用不是完全期待吧是不是這樣對不是完全期待不是吧是委員說的是正確的好那飲水人這個問題我就跟你要來好好談一下那局長應該知道6月8號也就是端午節前後在高雄"},{"start":2620.135,"end":2632.51,"text":"中油的油冷、花生碰撞這到底我們的飲水人還在不在或者根本這些國內的大船隻根本不需要飲水人"},{"start":2633.939,"end":2661.854,"text":"報告委員 這個事件呢我們有經過初步的瞭解調查那因為他在這個碰撞的位置已經是在二港口外體這個所謂的擋浪體的位置那依照這個高雄港這個引航的這個作業的規定在這個位置那個引水人是已經可以離開離開這個船舶那離開離開他他是另外在自己移動"},{"start":2663.51,"end":2690.149,"text":"因為這一般來講．大遊輪進來．他已經．那個引水人引導之後．他就變成．是他自由可以航行嗎．是不是這樣是的．但是跟．也跟委員報告．各港．我們次長剛剛提到了．各港都有．定有這個交通的航行指南這個是你在督導嘛．這個規定都是你們在規定啦．我必須要去提醒．"},{"start":2691.03,"end":2714.987,"text":"那就變成不管我們智慧型的引導輔助工作不管做得多麼完善引水人還是存在的那就變成這個引水人是非常重要的那我們也知道這些引水人是非常辛苦他不但經驗各方面都一定會凌駕船長"},{"start":2715.888,"end":2738.913,"text":"他開船的人他就是因為什麼都懂包括從水手包括從船長經歷包括從他的演航開船這等等他說具備非常豐富的經驗對不對所以這些的部分本席就認為既然輔助的東西還存在只是"},{"start":2739.993,"end":2768.868,"text":"讓他補助正確性而已但是我們的飲水人還是非常重要的所以葉局長我在想當然啦因為一個在空中飛是無確定一個是在海上也是無確定所以這個當然啦怪你們太多也不行但是最起碼的話我們未以籌謀飲水人既然是不能斷絕那就培養是很重要的喔我現在"},{"start":2769.748,"end":2785.854,"text":"我現在很納悶的我們現在全國聽說不到100人吧102人那我們所投資料只有90幾位那這個也不重要問題就是說培養這如同培養一個船長"},{"start":2786.934,"end":2800.196,"text":"那是比較簡單喔可是培養一個飲水人是非常重要所以我還是要建議我們業務局長在這整個飲水人的培養制度方面一"},{"start":2801.004,"end":2804.146,"text":"委員提醒非常重要我們有注意到這個部分"},{"start":2818.317,"end":2842.319,"text":"那現在每兩年定期辦理招考的這個機制呢另外我們也會針對各港的這個進出船舶的數量那還有剛剛委員特別提到因為我們考試及格之後他還有學習飲水人的階段我們會加強來督導考核讓他確實是一個具備專業能力的飲水人確保飲水的安全所以葉警長這裡我必須要跟"},{"start":2843.119,"end":2843.22,"text":"主席"},{"start":2860.618,"end":2876.503,"text":"出港量高雄、基隆、台中這是最大宗的但是會花生自行引那個引水人把他引進去港區之後他還可以自己去花生碰撞這代表什麼管理有問題"},{"start":2877.623,"end":2905.229,"text":"管理有問題也就是應該要你們要追蹤到他的船舶停下來以後那你們才沒有去監控所以這個部分我要建議啊我要建議我們A級長這裡可能啊還是要有一套的這些制度啦不要說你們只有做規劃那港務公司啊他自己本身去經營他的整個運量的部分"},{"start":2905.929,"end":2931.646,"text":"這些真的會傳之的安全與否這是非常重要所以我們的評比方面在整個港區管理裡面世界各國我們是倒數喔所以局長既然我們把政策分開港務的執行也分開那應該是要做得更細所以本席特別在這裡要提醒"},{"start":2932.446,"end":2957.963,"text":"我們業績長在整個我們飲水鹽的培養方面還有他的身心方面這個部分真的我們要有一套完整的既然斷絕不了那最起碼的話我們要有長期規劃還有長期規劃所以這個部分就看起來似乎如果航運越蓬勃那"},{"start":2958.783,"end":2962.045,"text":"非常謝謝委員的提醒我們在進入管考跟進出港管理還有設施設備這邊會強化來要求跟改善好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":2985.42,"end":3006.273,"text":"好,謝謝林委員．發言完畢．我們先處理議事錄．牧場、在場委員以足三人進行議事錄之處理．請問各位委員．上次會議議事錄．有無錯誤或遺漏之處．好,沒有錯誤．那請議事錄確定接下來請蔡其昌委員發言"},{"start":3016.344,"end":3021.048,"text":"謝謝主席請林次長跟葉局長請林次長葉局長"},{"start":3027.724,"end":3052.063,"text":"兩位早我想這個109年開始第一次我們針對這個智慧航安我們編了18億接著113年到116年又給交通部19億的預算來做這個事情所以我想這樣的一個計畫本席一定支持"},{"start":3053.215,"end":3071.273,"text":"我想航運可預期的未來一定是隨著經濟包括我們的風力發電所以以台中港而言我們可以看得到港務公司不斷地在對於港的範圍擴大興建新的碼頭"},{"start":3074.716,"end":3093.17,"text":"所以從中油台電的這些碼頭,因為需要氣嘛,這個我們能源轉型裡面,不但它作為風力發電的維修母港,更重要的是燃氣,我們要用以氣換煤,所以它就需要興建這個儲存槽。"},{"start":3094.824,"end":3109.839,"text":"那隨著經濟的發展這個航運就像現在我們動不動就在關心戰爭或者這些國際輪船運輸裡面目前又是一個高峰就是簡單講這個運量的問題所以看起來這個"},{"start":3115.144,"end":3128.135,"text":"這個航運的發展的趨勢可預期的未來裡面它還是非常蓬勃的那因為它的蓬勃所以安全就會變成是很重要的一個項目那"},{"start":3129.373,"end":3148.442,"text":"這個我想題目不是很大那我想剛剛今天的簡報裡面我也聽到了這個香港局很努力的在把它做好那我常常在講未雨綢繆這個時候怎麼樣把SOP把政府給的錢用在刀口上能夠這個去把它做好這很重要不要有狀況"},{"start":3149.662,"end":3177.557,"text":"大家在立法院裡面又炮聲隆隆的在罵這個人命關天錢財也很重要人命更重要所以這個本席只是在這裡叮嚀另外我想隨著這個航運事業的發展特別像港區臺中也好其他地方也好港區附近的整體性的配合城市的規劃跟發展其實它也很重要"},{"start":3178.581,"end":3203.23,"text":"所以本席過去在這個質詢台上面在十幾年前我還在當立委在交通委員會的時候我就提我一直建議港務公司去進行這個研議規劃規劃什麼呢規劃除了航運本業之外因為我們把很多的好的土地在港區的土地都做了這個都為港務公司所擁有"},{"start":3204.19,"end":3209.541,"text":"那港澳公司這些年來也不斷的在發展跟本業"},{"start":3211.565,"end":3235.794,"text":"現在叫無關我希望它有關啦所以我一直在督促說港澳公司可不可以嚴厲成立另外一個休閒開發事業部門也就是說你看我十幾年前講的這十幾年來不斷的在印證港澳公司從跟百貨業合作港澳公司跟這個這個遊艇業合作所以港澳公司周邊的土地它已經不再是純粹"},{"start":3238.295,"end":3264.946,"text":"所謂馬頭的管理或者運輸的工作臺中港務次長你也了解在過去陳建仁院長的時代院長也承諾本席我們爭取希望把臺中港務公司的那個土地包括舊的港務大樓能夠配合臺中的捷運藍線去規劃新的智慧型的大樓"},{"start":3265.686,"end":3282.652,"text":"那其實這個都是另外一種專業他或許跟休閒這個娛樂事業部門會比較相關因為他未來他發展起來供購對港公司創造財富的價值那個是很驚人的特別他又跟捷運一起供購"},{"start":3283.692,"end":3313.012,"text":"那周邊你看現在旁邊的山井凹類也已經發展成這個樣子當時還第一期日本人來的時候還不是太有信心要求第二期港務公司要投資結果第一期做得太好了第二期他就把入股金依照他的價值去評估結果評估完之後港務局覺得太貴了不能投資所以你就可以知道說臺中港做一個例子我想其他的港口"},{"start":3314.199,"end":3341.984,"text":"像基隆港他們也一定是很希望可以發展所以這個發展一定要跟港務公司來合作所以港務公司如果還是純粹所有的人通通是這個港的運輸管理的人才那我覺得就很可惜他就不能學以致用或者說他就可能在專業能力上面就會面臨到一點偏差其實不只這樣你看本席這些年來推動這個海調也就是調權"},{"start":3343.53,"end":3355.76,"text":"那我也很感謝港務公司是最配合的一個單位也配合行政院向海致敬可是每天的人流那麼多但是對港務公司的現金流一點幫助都沒有"},{"start":3356.721,"end":3378.327,"text":"所以你想人流進來了他的十一住行育二可能他都需要而那個土地全部都是港務公司的那港務公司現在都用公益的角度在做這個事情本席不是說他要賺很多錢啦而是說你有好的管理對釣客來講才是安全的你有好的服務他才會吸引除了釣客其他的家屬甚至遊客"},{"start":3379.187,"end":3395.784,"text":"他就可以到那個地方去那我也跟海洋委員會說嘛你要宣傳這個海洋的生態永續其實那個吊廠是最好的地方嘛所以本席對港務公司的定義一直很不希望他只有純粹"},{"start":3397.265,"end":3412.157,"text":"在這個港的經營管理運輸應該你看十幾年來的發展都是請我們這些管港管運輸管碼頭的同仁去經營他們非本業的事情"},{"start":3413.51,"end":3442.683,"text":"那對他們來講,非本業他會覺得這也不是我,我就是幾件上面交辦這個任務我就來做那為什麼我們不好好正視這個問題?對港公司的營收有幫忙,對整個服務的量能他可以提升對專業的程度,他對港土地的運用,港公司附近土地的運用他也好,最後一個他對城市的發展也有幫助所以不是共好,也不是三好,是好多個好"},{"start":3443.8,"end":3463.983,"text":"所以那個次長可不可以請港務公司研議一下對他的這個營業範圍可不可以加以擴大是來報委員我簡單回應一下時間到這樣子那個您剛提的這些指教都是非常重要也是我們12、23年前把港的正氣分離最重要的目標"},{"start":3465.425,"end":3478.92,"text":"韓港局專責行政、監督、執法港務公司的任務其實就是您剛提的他除了從港務經營以外開始他要招聘多元的人才進去開始進行多角化經營"},{"start":3479.741,"end":3500.332,"text":"所以您剛提的山景也好甚至未來的大樓以後要有捷運進去都是為了帶進人流增加它的這個叫very added就是它土地使用的增值帶動人流產生對國營公司甚至對周邊的效益所以我想這一點李董事長他們也是朝這方向做那可能有些地方"},{"start":3501.252,"end":3521.88,"text":"還要稍微...沒關係,因為時間有限,是不是說市長可不可以指示一下,這個跟部長討論一下,前港澳公司來研議啦,至少我講十幾年了,你也研議一下,看我可不可行或不可行,不然我在這裡講十幾年當然八年來我當副院長沒有空在這裡,沒有辦法在這裡質詢你嘛"},{"start":3523.36,"end":3543.975,"text":"但是我還是在建議當副院長我還是在談這個事情沒問題這個方向是對的港公司也要這樣轉型過去嚴義姐看是不是要怎麼樣是一個事業部門或者成立一個分公司我都沒意見就是我的意思說希望這樣來做不然你看那個總經理他還要負責什麼我叫他說台中港沒有一艘郵輪進來他現在還在"},{"start":3546.016,"end":3551.342,"text":"總經理的業務量也太多了吧太認真太多了吧總經理要找專業人來做我是說那個部門啦你下面他要有專業的人去幫他分擔這個工作總不能什麼事情我都找總經理去做嘛"},{"start":3565.239,"end":3589.657,"text":"好不好最後一點我提示一下時間已經到了就是我們在興建碼頭的同時港不斷的在興建事實上對漁民的這個就業權生存權也面臨很大的挑戰漁場越來越小嘛所以我過去在半年前我就要求交通部從王部長到現在的李部長我請他們趕快去研議到底對於台中港這個不斷的擴張裡面對過去漁民"},{"start":3594.24,"end":3618.86,"text":"這個漁場變小沒有補償到的部分要趕快研議因為我們這裡面有中油的有台電的有風電的他不是純粹過去只談交通部港的興建不是他現在是很多他都有相關的這個回饋的辦法所以是不是交通部要趕快統一研議一下我希望你們三個月之內趕快因為我已經跟新的李部長他上任第一天我就跟他講了"},{"start":3619.6,"end":3633.129,"text":"所以你們要趕快把這個報告要趕快給我到底要怎麼你們有什麼想法要怎麼來做謝謝委員這應該做對 漁民的權益一定要把它保障一下因為那邊的風電廠也對這個地體對我知道所以你們一併嘛因為這個補償"},{"start":3634.915,"end":3654.186,"text":"忠友台電同時在興建所以漁民的權利也要顧啦就是一方面我們希望經濟的發展但是對於傳統漁民在那個地方生存的範圍變小了這個我們本來就應該適度的可以補償對於相關單位的影響我們要處理好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝超委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":3661.206,"end":3684.467,"text":"好 謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部林國賢次長請您次長委員早次長早我記得交通部尤其是我們安防局要推所謂的海洋觀光其中我現在發現"},{"start":3686.331,"end":3714.329,"text":"那個疫情之後那個觀光的緊急應該要恢復但是國際郵輪目前看起來臺灣大概有七大國際商港只有安平跟台中目前完全沒有郵輪來停靠那這樣的郵輪經濟為什麼在安平連一艘都沒有那江東部這裡是不是可以給我們地方什麼樣的一個資源"},{"start":3718.398,"end":3730.027,"text":"各港有它的條件跟特性那您提到安平的部分其實我想您大概也了解目前雅果、遊艇跟周邊的地區有在發展但是確實還要再強化"},{"start":3733.289,"end":3734.409,"text":"國際郵輪來台灣已經回復到疫情以前的五成"},{"start":3750.675,"end":3771.367,"text":"今年預計可以回復到疫情之前的期程那港澳公司在疫情期間也有一些投資來陸續增加改善各港口的軟硬體設備那對安平的話是不是請那個局長講一下我請港澳公司講一下"},{"start":3777.338,"end":3803.705,"text":"那個在疫情前的話我們在我們有統計大概108年1月的時候有一個太平洋的那個威納斯兩艘次當時是641那另外探索夢浩那個疫情期間有跳島在109年有我講的是現在現在就沒有了現在就沒有嘛現在是對不對2024年你看基隆當然基隆是台灣最大的國際遊覽港口聽說過去200個航次了"},{"start":3806.866,"end":3825.335,"text":"在這個疫情期間我們是那台灣只有安平跟台中沒有嗎現在目前就是前一陣子就是去年的時候有那個尼納倫阿尼納倫他有做了兩三艘次的跨道噴火尼納倫停航了你知道嗎現在停航了你現在說停航的事所以說現在就是新的我們還在爭繼續爭取"},{"start":3829.048,"end":3847.542,"text":"比如說你要增加郵輪來停靠的誘因是不是可以比如說減免碼頭的停泊費或是你推動境外郵輪來台灣的講補助方案看怎麼吸引郵輪的那個航商陸續將台灣來納入他的航程規劃裡面"},{"start":3852.546,"end":3878.465,"text":"我是要聽你說這些嗎?這兩年的話我們是有那個就是定步會免費啦就有郵輪有載旅客啦有沒有辦法你覺得有沒有辦法你看這個數字其實也很低啦你看就基隆、高雄還有以外啊其他台灣的五大國際上花蓮、澎湖、蘇澳、安平、台中也幾乎快要接近零啦"},{"start":3879.13,"end":3899.535,"text":"我們大概4月的時候也去邁阿密去爭取,還有就是5月如果多的時候也要到日本去,就是來高雄以後或是...所以你應該台灣是一個海洋國家,寺廟黃海,那麼漂亮的一個島嶼,沒有人要來停,這是你要去發展的,不然怎樣?"},{"start":3900.871,"end":3901.031,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3916.462,"end":3935.627,"text":"把臺灣能夠納入國際郵輪的航線的規劃裡面對不對對跟委員報告那個除了港公司以外我們港公署也對這個郵輪的部分有做行銷跟推廣那也在掌握各個大郵輪公司目前就是說他為什麼國際郵輪停靠臺灣沒有意願"},{"start":3940.951,"end":3956.608,"text":"您剛提的一個是增加靠港的誘因,第二個降低它的成本,第三個要讓那邊的能見度,讓各單位在規劃遊程的時候能夠知道,譬如說臺南安平,或是臺中有什麼特點,能夠讓他納入他的航程。"},{"start":3957.308,"end":3983.197,"text":"我們希望可以看到成績啦好不好尤其疫情之後啦現在遊輪的旅遊又上來了也是很夯啦那台灣完全台灣一個所謂自稱海洋國家是完全沒有這樣的一個政府也沒看到這樣的一個推動的成績能夠拿出來你看這個數字實在也很難看啦好不好我們一起來努力好不好另外喔那交通部也要所謂的發展海洋觀光其中有一項叫做遊艇啦"},{"start":3986.391,"end":4011.178,"text":"我們講的是大型遊輪以外還有遊艇臺灣其實私人的遊艇增加速度非常快剛剛港公司有提到臺南有個遊艇碼頭亞國遊艇碼頭臺灣的私人遊艇這幾年都成長了10倍現在我查一下資料到去年私人遊艇登記的都有1166艘"},{"start":4014.588,"end":4035.782,"text":"相對的10年前大概只有100艘現在已經破千了1100多了但是非自用的遊艇在交通部的規劃裡面也說要來發展這種遊艇的環島航線但你這個法令綁得很死現在非自用的遊艇只有278艘你看這個數字差很多了對不對這種小的遊艇應該是國人玩的"},{"start":4042.759,"end":4068.507,"text":"大型國際遊艇可能是把國際遊客帶過來那台灣人如果我們國人自己要玩遊艇除了私人遊艇以外你看私人遊艇有1100多但是非自用的就是一般我們可以使用的攬客的遊艇只有278艘這數字比例差太多了吧就這樣看的話你這個遊艇什麼新進階航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航空航"},{"start":4071.197,"end":4071.486,"text":"您要回答嗎?"},{"start":4073.823,"end":4101.513,"text":"謝謝委員提醒那我想非自用遊艇的確是促進我們遊艇經濟跟這個發展的一個重點那近期我們也這個檢討了這個傳播法裡面針對非自用遊艇的經營的這個相關的規定並不是那麼明確也造成了這個業者營運上的一些限制不是不明確是很明確很嚴格很落伍"},{"start":4102.593,"end":4125.794,"text":"譬如說那個遊客要整船出去整船回來你不可以A點去再B點下不可以 對不對我從台南到高雄往我不可以離開我一定要再回來台南然後假設你去澎湖買東西你不可以拿上船 對不對不能載物購物也不可以帶回來"},{"start":4130.115,"end":4147.631,"text":"已經研擬了這個傳播法的修正草案那就是要來這個促進這個多元彈性的經營形態那把相關的這個不必要的限制都把他這個在這邊給大家看一下台灣說是海洋國家你看我們相關法令多落後啊"},{"start":4150.301,"end":4166.076,"text":"你一般森林遊艇這樣猛烈暴漲那表示說確實是有海洋活動的需求那這種是國人自己玩的結果你那個所謂的觀光遊艇觀光遊艇你看你綁這種法令對不對要原船出去原船回來而且只能包船"},{"start":4167.377,"end":4191.508,"text":"然後呢你不可以你到別的地點上去玩你不可以買東西不可以載貨物回來所以如果相關的法令是這麼的落後法我認為交通部應該盡速來檢討好不好是 包委員這個航港局已經開過公認會大家都認同有些應該要趕快修訂讓它發展好那我們就應該盡速檢討來修訂交通法令好不好是 謝謝主席"},{"start":4194.657,"end":4211.281,"text":"馬林委員．發言完畢．現在請徐志傑委員．發言謝謝主席．我們請香港局．請香港局業局長"},{"start":4223.324,"end":4248.117,"text":"謝謝局長,我們之前要求港港局有一點改變跟進步,先跟港港局感謝啦那就是說我一直在推動就是我們高雄的觀光,陸海空都要那在港港局的部分,推動這個台灣HIGH藍色公路品牌"},{"start":4249.318,"end":4275.24,"text":"那藍色公路我們也希望說呼應剛才軍縣委員提到的就是遊艇跟遊輪要怎麼樣讓臺灣這個海洋國家尤其我們高雄海洋首都要有更豐沛的觀光資源跟觀光人數跟觀光的配套這個我們就要整體去做思考所以呢這個臺灣嗨這個品牌那我們香港局的"},{"start":4276.295,"end":4296.662,"text":"事半啦事半就是說我們現在就是國外的遊輪到國內的跳島旅遊可以給予相當的適當的部分的補助嘛那這個補助我覺得是不是我看你們的計畫是到明年底就結束了"},{"start":4297.873,"end":4324.371,"text":"是 那各位很棒 這個部分我們會試這個14個狀況那再來持續的爭取預算我想 對就是說你們明年底規劃時間嘛那我想明年中我們會再記得會要求那也希望說香港局先做一下統計啦就是說我們經過這樣子一個措施那到底實質上的幫助有多少的成效"},{"start":4325.559,"end":4339.238,"text":"那能夠做一個估計那我們也能夠判斷說這樣子是不是一個真的是國外也喜歡來的一個行程嘛如果有這個成效報告不錯的話那是不是就可以考慮延長"},{"start":4340.936,"end":4354.793,"text":"我想這個部分希望說香港局不要只做到明年底啦所以我說第一個先感謝第二個不要只做到明年底應該可以再繼續思考一下就後續的事辦的延長"},{"start":4356.835,"end":4368.74,"text":"執行成效也會努力跟遊輪業者推廣特別關於我們今年在1月份2月初已經舉辦了一個亞洲跳島遊輪的推介會有7大國際遊輪行商來參與還有4個國家"},{"start":4375.783,"end":4393.109,"text":"日本、韓國、菲律賓都跟我們共同參與那這些遊輪商對於停靠我們的離島也有相當的興趣其中河美遊輪對於金門那另外一家叫珊瑚遊輪對於我們的蘭嶼都有表達具體的意願所以現在有具體的現場出來的嗎?"},{"start":4394.949,"end":4411.72,"text":"現在就是還對於這個一些海事的比如說他停靠金門到底要停泊在哪個點那個我們還在就是還在研究這些細節這些細節直接大方向已經有雛形有進步了對對因為他們有表達具體的意願好那這個希望說"},{"start":4413.201,"end":4427.48,"text":"我們這個呼籲那香港其實繼續的重視啦那這個有什麼進度也希望隨時跟我辦公室保持聯繫讓我了解一下就是這個進度到哪裡所以剛提到的第一點就是台灣害這個"},{"start":4429.462,"end":4451.092,"text":"國外的優等補助是不是繼續延長可以做一下成效跟思考第二個就是海上嘉連華海上嘉連華其實在第一章那個可以考慮一下就是說我們高雄其實曾經辦過海上燈會但是那是民間辦的一次就可以找四五千人在海上"},{"start":4452.322,"end":4468.937,"text":"那個其實是蠻壯觀的所以就是說如果港澳公司可以繼續推動這個概念的話你們可以試辦看看啦那也就是說整個我希望說高雄的海上的觀光可以變成台灣的第一名嘛"},{"start":4469.717,"end":4495.2,"text":"我想這個條件,高雄港有這個條件所以這個部分也請港澳公司,那個港港局先做一下思考我現在的想法是這樣,因為港澳公司很多事啦那港港局這個事辦其實本來就不是,經營不是港港局的工作但是其實港港局表現不錯,就是有心來事辦也算是,這算是記者啦,有心記者"},{"start":4496.261,"end":4508.042,"text":"對我們的觀光有幫助我們要感謝所以也希望說這個可以持續不斷交通部也支持這個事辦的部分可以讓香港區走在前面那再來就是說"},{"start":4509.431,"end":4534.99,"text":"彭博倫其實也謝謝香港局當時我跟楊耀委員的要求謝謝委員的指導那就是彭博倫可以順利完成這個也是喜事一窗我講的 如果沒有現在還在做還不好但是其實你看那個疫情期間那個探索夢剛那個李董事長有提到探索夢現在已經沒了對不對"},{"start":4536.853,"end":4542.583,"text":"現在叫民生世界一號現在有幾個行次是基隆跟高雄"},{"start":4549.901,"end":4576.553,"text":"臺澎金馬我覺得這個行...基隆的行次比較多高雄大概有5個行次高雄到澎湖是高雄到澎湖然後呢就是下半年大概8月多的時候那個就是民生世界那目前基隆的話民生世界是也有...我是這樣建議就是港澳公司一起就是說臺澎金馬都可以走一趟就感覺不錯"},{"start":4578.756,"end":4602.23,"text":"所以我說這個探索夢好是當時因為疫情的期間不能出國所以創作出這樣子一個航程出來一個旅程出來事實上這個旅程我們可以延續所以澎湖輪跟我們的澎湖輪跟新台馬輪基本上它都定義為交通船那如果有機會它也可以增加觀光的概念"},{"start":4603.677,"end":4621.55,"text":"那我們高雄澎湖金門馬祖這個如果一個行程出來我相信會有市場台灣人很多人沒去過金門沒去過馬祖那如果一次讓他台澎金馬四個島一起跳"},{"start":4623.049,"end":4638.156,"text":"我覺得會有吸引力那在我們高雄出發所以這個部分希望說港澳公司跟港港局是不是可以做一下這樣子的思考讓我們台澎輪那個澎湖輪跟新台馬輪可以充分使用"},{"start":4639.717,"end":4654.814,"text":"彭胡倫的部分也在我們次長的指導下我們今年7月到9月已經要舉辦這個海上嘉年華的三個示範的遊程你說哪個 台澎金馬彭胡倫一樣是 台澎還有哪裡沒有 一樣是高雄到馬宮高雄到馬宮"},{"start":4656.676,"end":4680.262,"text":"我們結合澎湖的三個主題的活動（包括吉貝的花火節、追風音樂節（還有101K的自行車跳島交通活動（總共七月底、八月底跟九月下旬（總共有三個示範的郵程（另外海上的船上的也有相當豐富的相關的八項的活動（"},{"start":4680.882,"end":4705.397,"text":"所以這個部分我們在前一陣子已經有發布推出那跟旅行社這邊來合作那我們希望這個當作一個起點那後續會照委員剛剛提醒的方向除了澎湖之外其他的島嶼我們金門跟馬祖是不是也能夠利用我們的這個渡輪交通船來進行更多的對 所以我想你規劃一下啦就是"},{"start":4707.018,"end":4732.148,"text":"你們先這一條台澎的這一條這一次的活動也讓我知道一下包括我們昆州委員包括楊耀委員我們高雄澎湖一起進步所以這個我們可以連在一起去做思考那另外我講的台澎金馬一起我覺得國內的如果有先這個其實很多國外的旅客來也可以走我們的這個路線那台灣人其實"},{"start":4733.228,"end":4753.777,"text":"很多人沒去過金門跟馬祖啦你如果一起來我覺得吸引力蠻大的所以希望說香港局跟港務公司做一下思考那後面的高雄的該進步的我知道剛剛軍縣提到的大家都在唱啦阿東人、基隆跟高雄算南北兩大港嘛那高雄現在跟基隆的"},{"start":4754.537,"end":4755.818,"text":"謝謝許委員發言完畢現在請何欣淳委員發言"},{"start":4783.622,"end":4786.147,"text":"謝謝召委我們請林次長"},{"start":4792.012,"end":4816.07,"text":"市長好在講智慧港口之前我要先講一個臺中現在正在發生的事情去年5月我在當交通委員會召委的時候我有邀請相關交通部的單位去臺中市的五泉西路及臺中高鐵閘道中間有一個路段去考察"},{"start":4816.75,"end":4838.265,"text":"那當時我們在地的立委張亮萬堅跟在地的議員何文海議員跟好幾位快20位的里長都在現場那我們當時為什麼要來這裡辦會刊就是因為我們知道臺中高鐵旁邊有一個號稱亞洲最大的娛樂城即將凍土"},{"start":4840.339,"end":4858.529,"text":"那這個即將動手的前提之下是我們現況是五泉溪路的閘道704號閘道很塞很塞很塞臺中高鐵站又是號稱臺灣僅次於臺北站的第二大的一個高鐵站"},{"start":4860.646,"end":4883.28,"text":"人呃乘客很多然後用路人很多高鐵閘道呢本身其實是要銜接高鐵閘道也很塞很塞很塞所以我們才會你回到第一頁我們才會去會勘我們才會去會勘我現在在跟你講當地現在背景我們去會勘考察說那要怎麼辦那現在呢我們確定"},{"start":4885.39,"end":4904.81,"text":"全台甚至亞洲最大的娛樂購物城要落腳台中那我們當然歡迎因為他會帶來很多的觀光客很多的一個產值經濟來成就大台中但是呢我們很擔心的是什麼配套他"},{"start":4906.151,"end":4933.729,"text":"這個禮拜天6月30號要動工了他要動工了但是呢配套平面道路現在呢就我個人的理解甚至我看到臺中市政府的一個核准的一個規劃我覺得我預期啦他完工之後絕對絕對會是交通上的一個災難的開始那甚至呢會讓我們的高鐵站的對外連外的運輸交通"},{"start":4934.93,"end":4954.548,"text":"還有臺鐵的運輸交通在平面道路上絕對都會打劫所以我就希望我們交通部可不可以中央在什麼樣的狀況之下跟地方合作來解決周邊的交通問題你看我收集了幾個媒體新聞報導"},{"start":4957.813,"end":4966.712,"text":"只要是連假收假我們臺中的高鐵站就是湧入人潮中秋返鄉的連假也是塞車塞到晚上10點"},{"start":4968.43,"end":4996.794,"text":"自由坐上次去年的驚人的長榮牌牌牌牌到站外去所以讓人家很傻眼那春節出遊更是塞塞塞塞塞那所以市長是不是我們中央可以主動的來盤點周遭的快速道路高速公路山鐵的周邊的道路系統我們全力來協助看要找出一個解方可不可以"},{"start":5000.015,"end":5012.361,"text":"上次您還有幾位委員會看以後這個案子我們部長很重視有指示陳次長要來了解那我初步的看法這個地區它周邊都是快速道路網"},{"start":5013.041,"end":5029.877,"text":"那您提到的如果一個大型購物商場進去會吸引很多人流物流基本上他應該18萬瓶然後呢是我們鐵道局招商的他應該當初有提出交通維持計畫跟衝擊評估是啊但是呢我有我想"},{"start":5031.218,"end":5055.744,"text":"這塊我們來跟葉局長聯絡一下,好不好?市長,你可以跟我們陳志豪兩個先把這個議題好好的把他的細節現在所有的包括他的環評、交評等等拿出來好好的來看喔他的交評就我手上拿到的資料都是在這個他的這個購物娛樂城的一個周邊的一個平面道路的一個"},{"start":5057.501,"end":5068.73,"text":"一個系統的交代跟紓解方案而已可是我現在可以告訴你如果只有平面的交通的評估跟紓解方案"},{"start":5069.667,"end":5070.267,"text":"委員我想您提的單憂我認同"},{"start":5096.92,"end":5099.242,"text":"主要公路去疏散而且你可以想像他的娛樂城是鐵道局招商他的娛樂城放在高鐵站"},{"start":5112.756,"end":5139.754,"text":"這裡高鐵特區他吃的就是什麼交通的一個最優越的一個位置那他要吸引的一定是國外甚至的北來跟南來的整個大台中地區甚至大台中地區的一個觀光客、旅客還有來這裡遊玩、購買、shopping的人潮甚至大多數的人也許也會選擇是用台鐵鐵路選擇高鐵"},{"start":5142.716,"end":5142.916,"text":"這個案子"},{"start":5168.208,"end":5187.485,"text":"您事後可不可以找個時間來我辦公室我們好好地來商量這一件事好不好我很擔心喔我想您提的擔心是有道理因為基本上周邊除非他都是利用高鐵跟台鐵來進出周邊然後用走路或接駁車或者會有一大堆車流需要處理"},{"start":5188.446,"end":5215.24,"text":"那這個策略做出一把會回賭到這幾個閘道,台積士跟國道上面對,它會影響到高鐵的乘客的旅客旅運問題這樣好不好,那個臺中的交通業局長他也是學交通專業了那我們次長跟我會一起來瞭解這個案子然後看看有幾個方向,一個是盡量利用軌道運輸進出,第二個利用接駁車進出,第三個這個區域要提出他的輸運計畫"},{"start":5217.201,"end":5236.949,"text":"來協助我們現在可能像搜狗或是台南很多大型商場要提出自己的接駁計畫到公共運輸場站去協助私人運輸的減低我想這需要處理所以我說這中央地方要合作而且我再提醒現在第一期叫做購物城它的第二期是百貨跟百貨跟飯店"},{"start":5240.845,"end":5242.406,"text":"我們先來瞭解他的吸引量多大然後跟葉局長這邊再拜託"},{"start":5257.06,"end":5276.828,"text":"因為確實都會影響到喔那第二件雖然我的時間到我就簡單講一下我們今天講的這個港口要智慧化港口要智慧化我們很多都是在於系統性的在園區內的一個讓它更省力更有效率但是我提醒一個以人為本的安全防護更需要智慧化"},{"start":5278.068,"end":5293.463,"text":"這個就是勞工的職場安全勞工的職場安全為什麼在這個園區裡面特別需要我們台中港裡面有風電那也有其他的一個產業那很多是大型機具那勞工在這裡面呢"},{"start":5294.304,"end":5319.614,"text":"公安問題我們必須要注意必須要防範那怎麼防範現在是有一些智慧化的一個科技技術是可以協助的我們希望包括個人防護具的一個監控這個做得到的預警還有呢所謂的勞工要進出的一些閘門是不是可以智慧化安全閘門或者是不安全的開口的檢測自動檢測這個都是"},{"start":5322.898,"end":5349.887,"text":"我們要強調的港口要智慧化不是只有園區或者是它的系統的智慧化而是要以人為本職安很重要次長你支持嗎是是我非常認同一個是進出港的人車物的管理第二個是危險物品的處理放在哪裡到底是什麼東西第三個是哪些單位在進行大型工程或是危險工程那人員積聚需要管理"},{"start":5350.747,"end":5365.679,"text":"第四個是這個資安或者是保安也是問題好不好這塊我想港公司會納到這個計畫裡面來但裡面有很多有很多單元公司他們可能我們要跟他們合作來處理"},{"start":5366.66,"end":5391.51,"text":"對我希望這個智慧化的港口真的不是只有你剛剛你報告的那幾面像我覺得還是人最重要好不好安全最重要謝謝謝謝何欣淳委員發言完畢在此先做宣告本日有委員提出臨時提案依本會往例在登記質詢本會委員發言告一段落後處理稍後我們將在陳書業委員詢討完畢之後隨即處理臨時提案"},{"start":5395.531,"end":5408.56,"text":"現在請陳素月委員發言謝謝主席,請主席,請林次長,還有葉局長請林次長,葉局長"},{"start":5416.504,"end":5436.911,"text":"市長早安我們知道臺灣的地理位置非常的重要因為就是正位在這個東亞的這個整個航運的一個重要的交通樞紐上那不管是這個貨物的進出口也好或者是目前都已經在進行的這個離岸封廠的一個開發都會讓整個這個海域的一個"},{"start":5441.391,"end":5441.451,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5461.152,"end":5463.914,"text":"因應未來節能減碳、淨零碳排的年代,綠能開發非常重要。經過這幾年來進行推動,在彰化外海離岸風產業,"},{"start":5477.424,"end":5477.584,"text":"整個海域的"},{"start":5492.975,"end":5493.456,"text":"韓國智慧航安"},{"start":5509.275,"end":5533.611,"text":"服務建置及發展計畫．這樣子的一個計畫．為期4年．到今年就是告一個段落了．那這一個4年的計畫．過去我們也看到．就是著重在建置這個海事中心．還有智慧航安資訊平臺．以及彰化風場的航道傳播交通服務系統．這應該就是一個重點．那我們今天也看到了．就是我們的一個報告．"},{"start":5534.972,"end":5550.93,"text":"就是我們即將在今年113年到116年繼續推動第二期的一個四年的一個計畫那在這邊我想請教一下就是說在第二期的這樣子的一個計畫裡面跟第一期有什麼不一樣"},{"start":5553.792,"end":5577.043,"text":"先請葉局長跟您說明一下好不好好 謝謝委員的提問那我跟委員報告在所謂的智慧航安2.0的部分跟1.0的幾個主要的差異第一個就是在整個監控範圍的部分目前的監控範圍是673平方公里那配合未來西北側海域整個第三階段區塊開發的一個"},{"start":5579.565,"end":5594.579,"text":"這個風場的一個開發範圍的擴大我們要把這個監控範圍從673平方公里大幅擴大為4000平方公里這是第一個所以我們需要四座的雷達站那BTS系統也必須要做相對應的擴充這第一點"},{"start":5597.522,"end":5613.238,"text":"整個AI智慧科技的應用希望智慧航安資訊平台未來透過巨量傳播的資料能夠建立傳播碰撞風險的功能"},{"start":5613.718,"end":5641.355,"text":"那這個部分對於未來海事案件的發生我們認為是有相當的幫助這個是AI智慧的導入那另外一個部分就是所謂的GMDSS全球這個海事安全預選系統的這個主系統的這個提升這邊主要是包括這個我們基隆的海岸電台那這個部分是這個配合國際這個規範的一個這個升級我們必須要來做提升"},{"start":5642.195,"end":5664.466,"text":"最後一點就是說我們的海事中心跟VTS中心現在都是單一的系統我們希望能夠有相對應的備援系統來提升我們航安服務的一個韌性如果有一個系統因故有故障的情形備援系統馬上就可以接的上來這個部分我想這個是幾個主要的重點"},{"start":5665.947,"end":5678.745,"text":"剛有聽到局長回覆說第二期的智慧航安有導入AI的技術請教一下我們有這樣子的運算能力嗎?就是在運用上"},{"start":5680.644,"end":5703.2,"text":"這個部分我們在訂定計畫的時候都有邀請相關專業單位包括這個資策會這些專家都有來進行評估過所以我們的目前的智慧航安資訊平台的這個運算能力是沒有問題是可以計算這個巨量的傳播的資料然後建立模型這個部分我們正在進行當中"},{"start":5705.36,"end":5731.175,"text":"我們看到就是說智慧航安第一期跟第二期實際上重點就是延續第一期的有關就是這個智慧航安平台資訊平台系統還有整個船舶安全服務的一個系統那其中有一個應該是新的就是成立智慧航安推動辦公室那這個部分目前我們未來規劃的方向是什麼"},{"start":5732.281,"end":5757.868,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為整個這個智慧航安的這個建置跟推動因為原來我們航安組的能力是相當有限是只有一個科所以未來會增加人力對那這個我們會邀請不管是專業的這個海事院校或是這個團體來協助我們共同來推動同時掌握最新的國際趨勢的做法"},{"start":5759.65,"end":5772.629,"text":"但是我們這個招募人力並不會很多用精簡有效的人力但是最主要是專業有他的能量然後有效的來協助我們掌握趨勢然後有效推動計畫"},{"start":5773.689,"end":5776.711,"text":"臺灣外海整個海域因為過去比較單純就是航運那因為現在就是因為風電的開發所以讓整個海域的安全就是比較複雜所以我想很多人還是會關心的就是有關離岸風潮的緊急救援機制如何"},{"start":5794.924,"end":5802.068,"text":"因為我們看到這整個救援的機制當然就是說這個離岸的開發商在開發的時候他們必須要送這個緊急的這個防災計畫給經濟部能源署可是我們看到就是說現行的法規如果說這個需要直升機的高空作業這個救難的話是由內政部空勤總隊在負責那依據這個災害防救法第三條交通部是海濫"},{"start":5823.52,"end":5844.328,"text":"災害防救中央主管機關負責海域的各項災害的預防應變及復原重建我們在這邊要關心的就是說如果假設這個海域發生了比如說風機因為颱風真的是颶風然後倒塌這樣子的一個事件的時候要由誰來負責救援"},{"start":5849.093,"end":5875.476,"text":"包委員這個在幾個月前我們在行政院副院長主持的會議裡面有特別提到這一塊那經濟部的部分是審核這整個計畫但是他裡面您剛提的海上救難是交通部為主所以交通部會負起責任我們大概會協調幾個單位就您剛提的經濟部本身他在通過設置這個風場的時候他第一個要有自救能力基本的自救能力"},{"start":5876.357,"end":5900.774,"text":"那第二個就是內政部空勤總隊空中的救援第三個是我們自己航港局我們也會我們應該有一筆計畫要來申請建造一個海上救難的船來協助處理目前我們有這個救難能力嗎目前是協同相關單位來做目前還沒有足夠還沒有足夠的能力所以這部分是需要加強的"},{"start":5903.65,"end":5912.277,"text":"海巡人員的救援會協助我們一起,等於航港局代表跟交通部一起做區域協訪"},{"start":5916.607,"end":5918.208,"text":"陳委員發言完畢我們現在要處理臨時提案本日既有一案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":5949.686,"end":5964.08,"text":"臨時提案一,臺南市後壁火車站北側停車場由國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司收回並以紐澤西赴南圍繞該停車場,除有礙關站外且自周遭停車空間不足。"},{"start":5964.48,"end":5990.28,"text":"原請國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司依地方民意需求競速向臺南市政府交通局協調注定該停車場事宜﹐並因橫著當地物價引擬加惠禮明且拔長治久安之停車規劃﹐盡早開放使用以維護民眾權益﹐請於一個月內向交通委員會提出執行成果﹐提案人委員林俊憲等﹐宣讀完畢。"},{"start":5994.329,"end":6007.938,"text":"好那請問委員及交通部有沒有意見沒有意見的話我們就照案通過臨時提案處理完畢如果委員對上述提案補貼列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":6027.243,"end":6042.294,"text":"我們接下來邀請李崑澤召委發言謝謝陳書業主席請一下林次長還有葉局長臺鐵今天有人來嗎臺鐵委員好臺鐵有有代表"},{"start":6052.486,"end":6071.482,"text":"好 那其實這個會期我擔任召委其實在04、03之前我們就針對交通安全的系統的安全還有橋樑管理、邊坡管理以及相關隧道的安全其實我們都召開相關的專題報告或者是現場的一個考察"},{"start":6072.122,"end":6098.196,"text":"但是還是有相當多的這樣的一個隧道安全以及台鐵的安全還是民眾、旅客頗為憂心的一個重要的安全議題那我們在6月21號就是下午的4點49分第229次車在崇德河仁間的這個西鎮線那因為大清水溪的這個土石流衝擊橋台之後那它的一流覆蓋在"},{"start":6099.516,"end":6107.242,"text":"合忍隧道南口的民隧道的軌面﹐司機緊急處置﹐還是撞擊﹐列車停在合忍隧道之內﹐129車出軌﹐車下設備多處受損﹐司機員的手部骨折﹐8名旅客輕傷等等﹐"},{"start":6119.751,"end":6140.663,"text":"我們針對這個其實我有幾個建議我稍微整理一下就是說我們目前的監控人員這個是我記得是台鐵的公務處的處長是不是處長我請教一下我們行控中心我們有一個監視牆它同時有十多個畫面在輪播但是"},{"start":6142.244,"end":6161.536,"text":"這個關係到安全的一個重要的行控中心的監視牆我們監看人員只有一名而且這個畫面是輪波他這樣人力足夠嗎來說明一下報告這個是足夠的因為這個如果是剛剛講的這個輪波系統是告警系統他會"},{"start":6162.977,"end":6186.53,"text":"如果有狀況他是會提供告警那會跳出畫面來的對這是有告警系統的部分如果是沒有告警系統像這一次有嗎在這一次這個是輔助系統的監視系統所以他沒有辦法在即時就提供相關的告警的訊息嗎是所以我認為在土石流的潛勢區我們短期來要建立獨立的監看系統"},{"start":6189.88,"end":6215.313,"text":"我認為對於健康系統我們必須從長期來說要做一個全面的一個盤整這些關於旅客的安全這個非常的重要那告警跟預防的部分我們短期是否在一些地區來設置擋板而且來建立告警的回報系統"},{"start":6216.373,"end":6243.088,"text":"來說明一下那針對這個部分我們會針對比較有土石有潛勢的區域那來設置這個所謂的水位計那來偵測監視器來做一個這個是野溪還有相關的河川的鐵路橋我們去比較有風險的地點來設置這些水位計那另外我們對於要進行疏浚整治的改善工作這個也要去做處理"},{"start":6244.268,"end":6270.097,"text":"我們應該優先從花東來做處理然後再做全國的一個盤點那這種應該要有全線的一個規劃的時間表嗎我們會回去再做全面的一個這都是我的要求來市長那裡補充說明報告委員這個案子其實部長非常重視大概花生之前我們剛談過供鐵路的全面盤點就是西極便坡的部分以上"},{"start":6270.797,"end":6294.697,"text":"所以這個案子您提到目前部長是6月23號6月23號開會以後決定要一個月內要求台北局就宜、花、東都要全面就潛勢區做盤點提出改善計畫那第二個您說的野溪整治要有水位計、要有橋腳的鞭撥、橋坡的監控第三個呢一流上來要有警示"},{"start":6295.538,"end":6296.379,"text":"水路事故海事事件每年150件以上"},{"start":6319.651,"end":6347.492,"text":"那失蹤加上死亡的人數每年大概也有大概30人到40人以上這樣的一個狀況這很嚴重的我們來看這一半以上都是漁船一半以上都是漁船那我們運安會的事故調查的統計水路的調查有215件那水路類的改善建立是235項那是我們水路事故的改善建立的結案率"},{"start":6348.536,"end":6371.252,"text":"只有74.8那就是表示大概還有四分之一仍然是沒有改善所以我在這邊有幾個具體的建議第一個我們水路的事故有一大部分是業者的安全管理不足或是設備不足這個必須要加強對業者的督導來說明一下"},{"start":6374.434,"end":6396.343,"text":"報告委員謝謝委員提醒針對業者的安全的督導部分我們大概有兩個部分來重點來做處理第一個是針對船舶的安全檢查的部分我們這個航行國際航線的船舶是由驗船中心這邊來進行檢驗這部分我們每年都會"},{"start":6397.083,"end":6419.183,"text":"去監督驗船中心要確實落實國際規範的要求另外針對國內航線的部分是由港港局的檢查同仁這邊來加強檢驗那除了船舶安全的這個四航性的這個加強之外船員的適格性特別是這個人員更換的部分這個也是我們這個檢討發現的這個重點"},{"start":6421.445,"end":6444.176,"text":"那另外對於航商本身公司的管理的部分這個依照傳播法的規定這個有所謂的NSM就是國籍航商的這個傳播安全管理的這個制度這一部分我們針對船員傳播的四行性、船員的事格性還有公司的管理面這三大部分來持續來簽約"},{"start":6444.796,"end":6470.852,"text":"對阿,相關的MSN的相關的這些安全管理系統必須要去落實跟督導因為必須要去加強這些相關的職業環境的安全加強這些安全的防務那另外針對院會給予的相關的這些水路類的改善建議必須要去落實阿你們現在節安率只有74.8還有1⁄4沒有改善這個要去加強督促阿另外我們針對郵輪的問題其實"},{"start":6473.894,"end":6491.108,"text":"在交通委員會那麼久,我們一開始要推展這個郵輪觀光,推展郵輪觀光我都是有從頭參與到尾那當初的亞洲郵輪論壇,也是我跟交通部要求在高雄來舉辦,就是希望高雄能夠成為亞洲的邁阿密"},{"start":6493.52,"end":6514.493,"text":"經過相關的這些旅運中心相關的這些規劃以及疫情的衝擊本來這個亞洲的郵輪路線是重要的新興路線成長非常快速那雖然受到疫情的衝擊現在逐漸的恢復但是逐漸恢復到基隆我們看到基隆他在2023年有142燒刺那2023年高雄有133燒刺那"},{"start":6523.024,"end":6545.149,"text":"2024年1到4月基隆港就有100艘次那同期高雄只有23艘次李先義董事長這樣對國融是不會交代人次的部分1到4月2024年基隆港有233,073人那高雄港只有36,333人"},{"start":6551.353,"end":6574.507,"text":"主要的差別就是去年我們銀聖世界它是有雙五港就是高雄跟香港之間一個禮拜有兩艘式這樣走那目前我們銀聖世界我們也跟他講他大概今年8月以後他會有五艘式來那整個扣掉那一個以外的話今年我們是目前到現在是應該是25艘次"},{"start":6577.748,"end":6580.931,"text":"高雄港作為郵輪的母港是一個最好的位置"},{"start":6592.398,"end":6595.921,"text":"臺南、高雄、屏東區域旅遊品牌跟套裝旅遊路線單單在高雄港周遭的亞洲新灣區以及旗津、鹽埕整個市區"},{"start":6615.399,"end":6644.513,"text":"又有大眾的這樣的一個輕軌啊捷運的系統都非常的便利有這麼好的環境這個次長必須要督促相關的觀光署以及航港局啊港務公司啊那要來提升啊這個我們都會嚴格的建築喔李協議董事長我必須再提醒你一次我要看到成績喔這麼好的條件那麼大家共同來努力應該要讓這個燒次跟旅客人次來增加"},{"start":6645.313,"end":6671.252,"text":"因為我們有很好的條件我不是說一個普通的港口一直要跟你要相關的這個郵輪的燒賜或觀光客進來這個都有相關條件的一個配合嘛高雄就是有這樣的條件我們相關的場域還有相關的配套其實我們都準備好趕快把明顯的當然要結合觀光署還有就是市政府把具體的政策跟明確的目標來向我們來做回報以上"},{"start":6674.035,"end":6697.93,"text":"謝謝李崑澤召委發言現在請徐富奎委員發言我們等一下在邱若驊委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘請各黨團告知接下來未到的委員以便他們安排自審時間徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":6702.338,"end":6703.881,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們林次長請林次長"},{"start":6710.589,"end":6734.716,"text":"學位很早市長早安市長我想在提到這個智慧航安之前我們應該先看一下這個陶基的一個漏水的一個事件我想這個接連不斷發生讓很多的國人針對這個門面的部分相當的憂心也覺得這個我們應該要提出一個檢討那次長過去也兼任過陶基的董事長"},{"start":6735.336,"end":6735.456,"text":"6月14日的"},{"start":6760.29,"end":6787.998,"text":"施工的一個狀況那因為他這個工是在處理原來屋頂漏水的問題他們有一個委外的計畫在做結果大概執行的過程中間拆除掉隔離板又連牆降雨下來所以那天處理的不是很理想那部長已經要求淘氣公司未來相關的計畫施工都要先做好配套的防患措施也就是說不要以為不會下雨"},{"start":6789.379,"end":6815.859,"text":"市長,我想我們現在只有針對施工廠商對,施工廠商也要罰款,罰10萬塊但是問題是現在不到半年就發生兩次這個國門的漏水的一個狀況那交通部針對這樣的一個淘機或是廠商的工程商我們有要求淘機可能未來在執行這類的工程都要把這個我們叫應變方案先提出來檢視完才可以處理"},{"start":6817.339,"end":6842.649,"text":"對,因為就本席我們掌握到的相關的訊息,我們從2010年陶磯就一直有發生漏水的一個事故,不然我們王前部長在3月25號這個已經有交代這個針對陶磯的部分的屋頂的防水工程也在施工,但是沒做沒台階,坐在咕嚕車上這一次就是在執行這個,整個在換,所以就變成這個工程什麼時候可以完成?"},{"start":6843.79,"end":6859.35,"text":"這原來預計是應該是要到明年但是他有階段性處理他不是全部一次全處理這樣會不會後續這個下半年所以李部長這次有要求陶希下次再執行這類工程要先處理預備測試"},{"start":6861.152,"end":6885.672,"text":"也就是說他執行的時候要把萬一可能漏水的方案跟預防先做好再來執行對 因為我們每次在委員會開會的時候都有聽到我們都有萬全的準備但是意外還是頻傳啊這樣實際是比較離譜一些啦尤其我們先我們訂出了這個今年要有1000萬人次國際觀光客來台的目標啊這個狀況下這是要怎麼對這個謝謝委員我們再來要求啦好不好"},{"start":6889.615,"end":6913.15,"text":"因為這個就是在施工前一定要特別注意防寒確實因為他本意是要去處理漏水的地方結果漏得更嚴重下雨剛好下來另外本席這邊再關心另外一個議題就是上次我在委員會有質詢我們雲南匯就針對波音公司生產這個飛機的事故的這個調查的部分那因為雲南匯"},{"start":6914.531,"end":6924.192,"text":"回覆當時回覆狀況是說他們有持續在關注但是本席認為不夠啦應該我們要掌握的狀況那請教次長我們目前國內有多少波音的飛機"},{"start":6925.73,"end":6947.417,"text":"報告委員我們會期應該有100多架各個公司都有我們有Airbus跟波音大概都平衡來處理787、777、737、800都有100多架數量也不少但是我跟您報告737 MAX我們國內沒有就是前一陣子出問題比較多那這一陣子出比較多是787787的機型我們在它一出現問題就有"},{"start":6952.919,"end":6973.659,"text":"民航局標準組就盯住所有航空公司要求有這種機型的都要注意那第二個問題您提到有一個蠻重要的就是這個我們在航空裡面叫公正文化就是說他看到問題應該要提報提報以後他不用苛責給這當事人那甚至不是自己做的也要提報"},{"start":6975.22,"end":6999.41,"text":"這次各位應該從新聞上也有看到有些吹哨者他的意見沒有上達到上面所以我們在昨天昨天民安局邀集國內各大航空公司跟美日專家也來做高峰會議的宣導甚至上次日本海保機的議題他們也在昨天拿出來討論所以這一類議題我們民安局會盯著"},{"start":6999.89,"end":7014.63,"text":"我想我們國內航空都有提到這個極端氣候跟鳥籍這個問題我們應該要持續掌握畢竟這個是國內航線的這個飛航的一個很重要的一個關鍵這部分我們還是要求我們部裡面持續的掌握那另外"},{"start":7015.772,"end":7036.214,"text":"針對我們目前掌握到的狀況就是近5年我們遠洋漁船這個事故一年都維持100多件那其中是以這個機械故障的比例最高然後還有我們船員的傷病當然我們這部分我們有要求我們漁業署這邊要來協助但是交通部在這個"},{"start":7037.375,"end":7046.845,"text":"一體上面我們怎麼來做掌握怎麼來協助這個漁船的安全跟委員報告那遠洋漁船因為他出海一次就好幾個月甚至半年以上"},{"start":7047.711,"end":7075.811,"text":"那所以基本上他船員的訓練、船員的維修這個都要符合規定但是遠程過程中勢必會碰到狀況所以船東一般得在事前做好這個沿路的配備就像航空公司一樣他在某個地方發生狀況他周邊要有一些協同的廠商或是合作的業者協助他們做保養跟船員的照護甚至醫療"},{"start":7077.458,"end":7078.566,"text":"這類我們會跟約束一起來處理"},{"start":7079.551,"end":7107.36,"text":"對,我想這部分就是本席也要求因為雖然這個跟原業屬比較有直接的關係但是我們交通部也不能置身事外因為這個地座處理都很混亂路頭搖彎那當然就是有涉及到我們這個很多船員的一個安全的問題就這部分我們還是要求針對這樣的一個事故的部分交通部應該要掌握狀況然後應該把這個遠洋事故能夠壓低在每年能夠"},{"start":7108.421,"end":7112.166,"text":"再麻煩航港局跟約束就這個方面看怎麼來強化"},{"start":7114.416,"end":7138.437,"text":"市長有沒有定期的一個檢討的一個會議我請葉局長報告委員就是針對這個不管是漁船還是一般的商船我們每一季都有所謂的海事案件精進檢討會議那漁業署是我們一定要請的這個單位之一那因為漁船員的訓練是由漁業署這邊來是由他們發證由他們負責"},{"start":7140.899,"end":7158.849,"text":"所以這個部分我們針對漁船的海事案件都會在這個每一季的海事案件經濟檢討會議提出來來進行討論那會遵照委員剛剛的提醒還有次長剛剛提示的方向我們再加強跟漁業署和怎麼樣來合作"},{"start":7159.329,"end":7187.63,"text":"包括他在這個國外這個如果有傳播需要檢修或是檢查情形我們這邊也其實院長那邊都有相關的機制可以來協助因為我們也有很多的國外基地在運作那我想我們應該掌握狀況那這個本席也要求這個我們局裡面是不是一份書面資料針對怎麼跟漁業署來合作這個機制能給我們一份完整的報告是我們會我們跟委員提報好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":7190.838,"end":7208.812,"text":"好 謝謝徐委員．發言完畢．現在請邱惠華委員．發言．邱委員．發言完畢．之後．休息10分鐘謝謝主席．主席有請常務次長．還有航港局葉局長葉局長邱委員早次長早"},{"start":7222.468,"end":7236.847,"text":"臺灣對外貿易以海運為主,近年來我們看到鴻海危機,還有貿易戰,區域性的塞港現象持續。對航運的貿易造成問題,林次長,對業者有沒有提供哪方面的協助,以掌握航運的市場變化?"},{"start":7239.096,"end":7258.864,"text":"報告委員,我們的航運界都非常強,我們基本上這幾家大航商,他們在疫情期間有充分的擴展自己的船隊。這一陣子因為鴻海危機加上運價的疲軟再又恢復,所以航商也會根據市場的情況再做調度。"},{"start":7259.944,"end":7261.886,"text":"航港局2020年成立的國際海運運輸平穩工作小組還有定期召開跨部會的會議嗎?"},{"start":7282.821,"end":7303.38,"text":"報告委員因為在疫情之後整個供需已經恢復穩定那當然近期因為鴻海危機還有巴拿馬運河的這個枯水的情形就如同市長剛剛提到運價有持續上漲這個現象那我們目前網站上的評論專頁是持續在提供"},{"start":7303.96,"end":7305.161,"text":"有需要就來恢復啟動定期的召會"},{"start":7316.275,"end":7337.175,"text":"所以是沒有那有沒有成立新的小組或是其他的機制協助目前還是以這個小組來運作那先前在疫情期間我想我們跟金屬口業者還有國際行商有做了很好的配合那對於國際行商我想還有金屬口業者我想都得到很正面的回應那有沒有針對2025年多變的行業貿易形勢來做討論"},{"start":7342.626,"end":7362.144,"text":"這個部分我想2025年的部分目前因為這個市場上的觀察是這個在下半年因為疫情期間許多大的航商都有投入新船的建造所以下半年應該是會有新的運輪的投入所以看起來應該是運價會持續一個會比較這個平穩的一個態勢"},{"start":7368.87,"end":7376.958,"text":"我們看到就是交通部有提供書面報告說明智慧港灣港口的相關計畫推動還有辦理那有沒有針對治安來做維護升級呢"},{"start":7380.657,"end":7383.018,"text":"推動海洋觀光本席提到桃園市,香港局近期針對桃園"},{"start":7410.553,"end":7434.527,"text":"臺灣市觀音區的白沙甲燈塔有火化的計畫,次長您知道嗎?我曉得目前因為它有文資法的考慮,因為是國定古蹟所以基本上,航港局在推動過程會依據文資法來看如何再利用這個部分會提供燈塔的火化有沒有提出相關的啟程?"},{"start":7437.281,"end":7460.298,"text":"各位網友我們在上個月已經依照文職法就是啟動這個所謂的修復再利用計畫的擬定委託專業單位來進行這個計畫擬定那預計是在明年的6月要跟文化部來提報這個是因為他是國定古蹟依照文職法必須要跟文化部來提報那要到明年的6月"},{"start":7460.858,"end":7466.384,"text":"對 那過程中我想我們會跟市政府這邊還有地方這邊來多做溝通"},{"start":7468.327,"end":7482.471,"text":"希望我們的港務區可以多與我們桃園市政府多進行溝通那疫情後那郵輪產業也逐漸的復甦那郵輪靠駁的數量持續增加那我們看到今年的數據從113年482艘次然後到相較於前年327那成長了47%那今年出港的旅客有望達到81.6萬人次那我們看到這張簡報那這邊有沒有就是"},{"start":7495.054,"end":7515.747,"text":"針對我們的港口推動宣傳方式還有什麼加強的計畫嗎我們針對我們港口就是訂博會都免費那你同樣的一艘如果說有進出5次以上我們大概旅客費用我們全部免"},{"start":7517.208,"end":7543.718,"text":"免費那目前在我們利用那個COVID-19那另外我們也有一些獎勵的計畫就是吸引航商或是旅行社來那在COVID-19期間的話目前我們所有的港口的一些設施全部都已經整理完畢隨時都可以應付像前一陣子"},{"start":7557.609,"end":7573.121,"text":"本席也一直很關心就是馬祖的觀光發展那葉局長在6月11號的時候您也說到就是7月航港局已經構思要未來如何像跟我們的新台馬輪可做觀光結合的元素那未來要如何來推動"},{"start":7576.727,"end":7592.024,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想新台馬人是去年我們4月份新投入的這個新的交通船那整個品質得到這個民眾的這個肯定那我們也很希望他朝這個觀光的這個方向來發展"},{"start":7593.105,"end":7612.617,"text":"目前最主要的問題因為他一週有12個航班也就是說一週六天裡面都有他的航班他只有禮拜二是航休所以在交通的需求上他擔負了台馬之間很重要的一個角色跟任務我們怎麼樣來朝觀光的發展我想有兩種做法"},{"start":7614.818,"end":7642.691,"text":"第一個是配合既有的航班我們可以搭配比如說我們今年7月份澎湖文要啟動的這個模式跟旅行業者搭配馬祖這邊港灣的郵程還有在船上的相關的活動就既有的航班就來規劃那另外一方面另外一種做法是因為我們在這個馬祖還有另外一艘大型的交通船叫台馬之星目前是負責南甘道東引之間"},{"start":7643.371,"end":7643.651,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":7670.481,"end":7670.962,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":7699.901,"end":7700.383,"text":"因為剛才開會不能過來"},{"start":7712.606,"end":7713.166,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7744.601,"end":7745.121,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7772.457,"end":7772.798,"text":"﹚發言委員﹚"},{"start":7802.338,"end":7803.338,"text":"委員會主席委員會長"},{"start":7829.386,"end":7829.947,"text":"主席"},{"start":7845.602,"end":7846.343,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7861.781,"end":7862.061,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7887.632,"end":7892.934,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7921.406,"end":7923.947,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7934.692,"end":7935.073,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7957.991,"end":7958.591,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7984.019,"end":7984.239,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8004.731,"end":8005.451,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8032.238,"end":8034.979,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8063.693,"end":8064.333,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8074.564,"end":8075.384,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8097.55,"end":8097.851,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8123.415,"end":8124.275,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8148.074,"end":8148.535,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8173.029,"end":8174.13,"text":"發言委員．完整"},{"start":8685.289,"end":8711.558,"text":"繼續開會,現在請U號委員發言。有請林國賢次長。請林次長。等下也會請到航港局的局長。"},{"start":8713.395,"end":8735.394,"text":"委員早市長,想要先跟您追蹤一下就是在將近兩個月前的時候我跟王宏威立委有曾經開了一個記者會那就是有提到高鐵那時候他內部的管理問題在公安的部分差點造成6個員工還在因為沒有斷電的情況之下在做施工還整修還拆點"},{"start":8736.315,"end":8744.859,"text":"有請交通部針對高鐵 做管理要求．希望在一個月內提出上次公安事故危機．包括高鐵酒駕的事件．作回覆請問市長目前報告有出來了嗎?"},{"start":8765.339,"end":8775.533,"text":"報告委員,今天鐵道局好像沒有在那沒關係,就請市長事後書面給我們辦公室跟網紅會委員辦公室我們再追蹤一下這個事件"},{"start":8780.92,"end":8794.954,"text":"本期還是要肯定交通部及航港局以及包括港務公司對於智慧航港和智慧航安的一個努力那希望說在台灣目前來講在這樣子大家齊心協力之下"},{"start":8795.535,"end":8796.035,"text":"本席本席本席"},{"start":8816.533,"end":8828.466,"text":"同樣有關於航港局的相關業務當然在這裡還是肯定相關交通部跟港口公司跟航港局還是要肯定我就直接針對我的選區來就教"},{"start":8831.709,"end":8858.504,"text":"日月潭水域推動載客船舶電動化的一個過程來做一個請教那在請教這個之前我大致上跟大家講一下這個南投雖然不靠海但是其實同樣日月潭是大家最喜歡的一個觀光勝地包括它也是白鹿的故鄉還在這個美麗的日月潭其實大家許多的遊客都會藉由來這邊搭船來感受一下這個日月潭之美那也希望說"},{"start":8859.244,"end":8875.524,"text":"在疫情的期間以及包括在現在的觀光客人潮如果再引進在日月潭能夠再帶動我們地方日月潭的觀光發展以及南投的觀光產業那其實也是非常重要那同樣的在"},{"start":8876.425,"end":8902.398,"text":"之前日月潭的這個船舶其實一直也要持續的往這個電動船的方向來邁進以達到這個節能減碳那所以本席還是期待說不管是延續許淑娃縣長當初當立委期間以及現在當縣長的宜居南投甚至本席在目前交通委員會也希望日月潭可以成為這個電動化船舶載客以及觀光發展的一個示範區那本席想要直接就教"},{"start":8902.978,"end":8926.034,"text":"那在目前日月潭現有的138艘的船舶那98年開始推動這個柴油船、太灣城電動船那以及在101年4月10號核定的這個補助要點那目前來講柴油船、太灣城這個電動船的大約有多少艘已經完成以及這個比例是多少?"},{"start":8928.173,"end":8939.367,"text":"報言初步的資料電動載客船大概有18艘您剛提到日月潭水域我們的資料是139艘所以大概是13%"},{"start":8942.631,"end":8948.373,"text":"我這邊是138你們139那太煥龍我這邊是22你們是19但是沒關係因為中間的差異應該是在於臺電公司的公務船跟兩艘未營運的差異那目前來講的這個比例是十幾%這101年到現在113年還將近12年的努力那想接著問一下這個由"},{"start":8966.138,"end":8981.488,"text":"觀光發展基金每年編列預算預計補助到116年那在這個比例上可以改為電動船的比例大約可以提高到多少比例其實說它這個燒數還大約可以再讓多少的柴油船來汰換成電動船"},{"start":8983.022,"end":9012.405,"text":"報告委員 其實大概幾個月前 監察委員有到智慧台風險區去巡查那時候有提到這個議題可能那時候提到最大的問題是這個船主或是船東對這個動力系統的可靠度比較沒有信心所以即使觀光署或是我們航空局協助希望能夠把大部分的船轉為電動化因為這可以降低柴油的污染以及這個噪音"},{"start":9013.886,"end":9039.108,"text":"但是目前來講他們對這個電動化船的穩定度比較沒有信心那另外一課題我們根據這個香港局也請我們的這個CR就是傳播中心開始在思考說有沒有其他的船舶用其他能源動力的也可以來協助讓這些柴油船能夠轉型能夠變成比較永續的"},{"start":9040.509,"end":9068.645,"text":"好那在109年到112年這個我看到也有三個相關的航港局的計畫嘛包括日月潭最適電動船傳行的可行性分析包括他的一個岸電技術及產業探討營運模式的可行分析包括日月潭電動船的這個傳證的實證三項計畫花了1800萬在前瞻計畫裡面那當然說也把這三項報告也送到本席辦公室因為我會持續追蹤討論那同樣"},{"start":9070.146,"end":9095.594,"text":"那在這個部分來講在116年的經費差不多會先告一段落這個是這一期的部分那同樣本席還是會建議現在目前船家的意願不高那主要是對於電動船的這個信心以及說在改良的方式他們會有疑慮那同樣的應該是要重新再檢討一下他這個補助的金額以及說目前來講在船家的方式來講他是不是不夠的"},{"start":9096.334,"end":9120.893,"text":"那這個比例上是不是可以再調升的因為本席在這裡還是要建議交通部能夠在有零碳排特別預算的一個經費下由航港局未來來比照電動車來推動這個電動船的補助計畫是全國性的方式來落實減能減碳那達到這樣子的比例才能夠真正的促進還有地方上面去改善因為電動車也同樣遇到就是這個經費補助經費不夠嘛"},{"start":9122.955,"end":9148.795,"text":"包括這個電動的巴士也是一樣那大家演繹的方向就是提高這個比例那減能減碳的這個方向是未來的趨勢所以包括在日月潭電動船也希望比照的方式來去做一個改善好 謝謝委員您提到其實蠻重要一個就是補助額度不夠導致它誘因不足第二個是船的這個穩定性船頭有疑慮第三個岸電跟周邊的配套"},{"start":9149.395,"end":9172.546,"text":"那這個您提到116年以後我們還是會持續做因為這個方向應該不會變那我會請香港局這邊來來跟這些商家傳統也瞭解一下看看他們的意願然後看看多大的誘因可以讓他們轉過來那第三個當然他們如果對這個電動船信心不足那替代的船型有沒有能夠達到一樣的目標這幾點我們一起來處理"},{"start":9174.167,"end":9200.001,"text":"那最後再補充最後一個建議就是說因為像日夜潭水域的公共整修包括文屋、碼頭、興建等等他在疫情期間其實都探討的需要把周遭做一個因為營運電動船的一個設施來去做一個興建但是像現在許多地方都有一個就是就是緩和或者是停滯的狀況本期也希望交通部能夠跟港港局以及包括觀光署"},{"start":9200.441,"end":9228.504,"text":"共同探討：藉這個機會推展電動船的期間：也把周遭的港口措施做一併的一個升級是 謝謝委員周邊大概瑞潭風雲風管處 觀光署的他人行步道 自行車步道 跟岸邊的整理做得不錯所以這一塊大概大家都認同應該這肯定是管署那其他您講到電動船的配套或是永續能源船的配套我們再來處理好不好好 謝謝您好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9229.504,"end":9255.111,"text":"好 謝謝與委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言好 謝謝主席那我們是先請我們交通部林次長然後跟台鐵公司今天有派處長公務處長委員早次長早"},{"start":9258.749,"end":9285.483,"text":"市長首先其實本席今天雖然談的是航港的問題那今天還是先針對時事我想台鐵鞭破落實的這個土石流事故又發生了一次那其實從本席今年從4月17、5月6號、6月6號今年到目前如果今天算下去第4次了針對我們所謂鞭破落實告警系統已經提過這麼多次的這個質詢那也約了相關單位來辦公室檢報過但是我想立委還沒有過完結果我們台鐵又發生了相關這個事故"},{"start":9286.303,"end":9304.009,"text":"那當然台灣地形很多尤其是現在極端氣候之後我們有非常多的山坡這個都會有過去沒有發生過的事情再次來發生那我想問說這個台鐵在之前的事故發生的時候也說了會來增加26處那增加到再加26加38總共有64處的這個這個告警設備那我想問一下這個因為64處"},{"start":9311.812,"end":9334.152,"text":"次長或是我們台立公司覺得這樣子的數量夠嗎尤其是這幾次的這幾個事故其實只能說好運都沒有發生這個重大的人員傷亡所以說如果是因為人員傷亡所以關注度不高我想這是一個比較不好的狀況因為其實每一次這個事故發生都是人民管理的事情所以我想問一下到底目前這件事情進度怎麼樣"},{"start":9335.253,"end":9360.712,"text":"委員我先請台鐵公司說明一下好不好是那針對這個入侵的一個這個告警系統的部分那台鐵局會有全面的再重新檢視那針對花東的地區那目前會在後續會再增加7加1總共8處的一個地點那持續也會對全省的地區那來做一個全面的一個檢討以上"},{"start":9361.593,"end":9375.21,"text":"7加1對不起處長那個本來是一開始講26那後來說要追加到38所以是64那你剛剛講7加1是那個沒有在38剛剛的那個範圍內所以是64再加上去或再更多一點"},{"start":9376.331,"end":9377.933,"text":"高鐵公司全場350公里設95個落實告警系統"},{"start":9393.191,"end":9420.63,"text":"高鐵公司他的幹線主要在西部一般來講我們想像中認為直觀的覺得西部的這個落實告警落實的情況沒有東部來的嚴重那我說光是這個高鐵公司最新的數據裡面他在西部幹線這邊就有95個落實告警系統那我想台鐵路線全長1065公里那如果只完成了這樣子目前提到這樣的數量這樣子我想跟相比這個高鐵量其實遠遠不夠啦所以我想問一下後續"},{"start":9421.791,"end":9449.453,"text":"交通部在這個相關的資訊整合．跟高雷系統的設置．還是會維持目前的進度．還是可以參考一下．更先進的做法?是,跟委員報告．您提的確實是重點．當初高鐵在選線的時候．就已經避開．比較自在或危險的路段．是所以第一個他先天條件就選的比較好．第二個他因為高速．所以您講的除了地震的警告以外．他還有其他變波．"},{"start":9449.753,"end":9450.053,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9480.193,"end":9508.872,"text":"所以這塊是應該要繼續來做謝謝 因為之前包含本席前面有提到我們講了三次今天第四次了那其實之前提到包含公路總局公路局那邊他們也有他們的這個高風險的路段所以期待說就是我們交通部就從上位機關的原則來講去做好好的資訊的統合跟協調不要說台鐵公司做台鐵公司的高鐵公司做高鐵公司公路局做公路局的我想這樣子這個因為臺灣的地形不會因為你不同公司有不同的狀況發生"},{"start":9510.173,"end":9533.03,"text":"只要是這個山坡經過了不管下面是鐵路還是公路還是高鐵還是什麼它該發生落實它就會發生落實所以說拜託大家這個資訊整合趕快把它做起來可以嗎委員提的是重點主要就是每個自災易自災路段或潛勢路段上面有什麼運具都要一起處理甚至可以共同來處理好謝謝我們次長也謝謝台北公司那接下來我們請這個航港局"},{"start":9535.848,"end":9559.663,"text":"跟市長,接下來討論到其實今天討論港口的問題其實我想大家有關注一下這個氣候變遷尤其最近這幾...尤其像今年也特別明顯不管是地震也好或是各項的這個氣溫的升高也好其實氣候變遷應該是現在的顯學我想氣候變遷之後這個港口的風險也相對來提高但我想問一下說像我們航港局對於這種這種氣候變遷有沒有預判"},{"start":9561.844,"end":9588.167,"text":"因為其實很多的研究報告當然這個是不是交通新聞這我跟大家開玩笑一下這是在這個股市新聞上看到的這會沖淫到我們的經濟所以海平面上升之後氣候變遷之後其實會影響到我們的這個很多港口的這個航運影響到港口航運那當然就影響到我們這個出貨的問題所以我想問一下如果這個氣候變遷的這狀況持續下去我想問一下到底我們對於海平面上升這樣子的風險有沒有掌控到"},{"start":9590.265,"end":9609.399,"text":"我先請葉局長跟您報告跟委員報告的確氣候變遷對於航運的確是一個重要的課題那對於港口基礎設施在未來的這個規劃跟設計上就應該要考量到這個海平面上升的問題"},{"start":9610.18,"end":9626.256,"text":"那目前我的了解在部裡面或是港公司相關的這個基礎設施的這個設計上都有將這個氣候變遷的變數考量進來那我目前有沒有面臨到海平面上升現階段有沒有海平面上升現實的問題現在"},{"start":9628.759,"end":9651.066,"text":"目前我們所有的港口沒有遇到但是我們會把這個納入評估現在我們在106年的時候我們就請那個交通部的運營所就做我們所有的港口所有相關海氣象的方面做個評估提供給我們給我們很好的一些相關資料比如說海流潮汐"},{"start":9652.586,"end":9676.887,"text":"還有就是一些風速的一些情況波浪這些讓我們的除了我們自己本身了解以外我們也讓行商知道那另外我們的基礎一些在基礎建設的話我們就有考慮到氣候變遷的問題我們希望能夠把這個港口做成一個永續經營就是韌性的那個港口"},{"start":9677.327,"end":9701.566,"text":"主要主要因為談的是智慧港灣的問題所以我知道就是交通部這邊或是港務公司、航港局你們有沒有這幾年陸陸續續的數據可以提供給本席我想希望你們提供出來更客觀的數據讓我們知道說到底我們現在台灣各個主要港口它有沒有受到這種氣候變遷下的風險有沒有統計數據可以提供給本席OK我們會後的話我們會提供好謝謝謝謝委員主席謝謝"},{"start":9705.526,"end":9724.855,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員發言完畢,現在請盧明哲委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請我們交通部林次長請林次長"},{"start":9729.102,"end":9747.388,"text":"市長先講一下我們台鐵的新四強號這個事件你們那個鏡頭現在影片出來我只請教一下你們都是裝這種沒有智能嗎就是看然後你們說這是事後事後發生災難調影片"},{"start":9750.109,"end":9773.027,"text":"欸你們我是不是可以拜託那個今天台鐵友來啊你們不要不要這樣搞好不好因為我們荒郊野外要拉路線如果你是走實體的話還花多少錢拉一個鏡頭到那裡去然後咧你們說一堆人要等有人監看沒有人會看啦怎麼會有人隨時每一秒都在看那這種一定你們現在告警系統也是AI技術嘛欸幾秒幾秒比對有什麼變化的時候自動響鈴這種嘛"},{"start":9778.464,"end":9778.484,"text":"委員長"},{"start":9795.535,"end":9796.876,"text":"接下來我們要談一下那個海運的部分"},{"start":9825.612,"end":9826.578,"text":"沒電了"},{"start":9828.479,"end":9856.614,"text":"好 這個我想次長我相信應該看到6月8號這個我們海基會董事長鄭董事長這個因為過去海基會是基本上是隱形人那自從我們副院長做海基會董事長的話我感覺這個畫面比陸委會還多那他是不是某種程度也釋放了陸委會他的一些的訊息或者方向呢所以在6月8號我們特別看到了"},{"start":9857.034,"end":9871.671,"text":"除了制式的一些說法增加兩岸交流這個瞭解然後開放觀光交流是兩岸的市經時最重要他提到了一句話他說因為海運客運的部分"},{"start":9872.412,"end":9872.772,"text":"報告委員有"},{"start":9887.481,"end":9913.217,"text":"那目前兩岸的部分小山通的部分已經有通小山通的部分我們原來18班到金門現在已經有8班每天來回是16班那第二個是您提到可能比較大山通的這個議題大山通的議題目前是可以專案申請來處理目前是專案申請那現在有準備要包船嗎我們那個董事長說的這個方向"},{"start":9915.358,"end":9929.004,"text":"應該政府部門我們跟陸委會還有相關單位會討論以後再處理這個目前還沒有到這個階段這個部分是我們看到這個我們鄭董事長一個訊息那第二個因為陸委會"},{"start":9930.785,"end":9930.925,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9954.012,"end":9954.212,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":9984.332,"end":10008.421,"text":"報告委員這個我們有在做這個議題就是您剛提的供需要先處理那目前小三通的部分現在一天8個來回平日大概六成多假日稍微高一點一天大概有兩千多人藉由小三通來往來那第二個呢就是我講主要是大三通啦你們要不要準備啦過去因為在疫情之前是"},{"start":10013.363,"end":10036.625,"text":"兩岸各三個主要的港口我們是基隆、台北、台中那未來港口的選定未來我講未來政策一走的時候選擇哪些港口然後再來經營者的意願因為停了109年6月10號就完全停了那這些船還跑不跑他是不是已經移到其他行業了"},{"start":10037.426,"end":10038.527,"text":"政策一開放的時候在航運兩岸航運"},{"start":10056.036,"end":10081.556,"text":"客運的部分能不能去做一個接上這個部分是真的要去做真的要去瞭解委員講的是重點第一個經過了快4年了中間有些航商譬如說利納倫就已經離開但是傳統有意願萬一未來開放還是有意願所以這個部分我們會先盤點兩邊的運力那第二個供需的部分需求也要考量考量我們以後配合政策會一起處理"},{"start":10082.797,"end":10097.161,"text":"因為我知道已經有一些過去的業者希望除了貨運之外能夠做客運但我們航港局有幫忙不管去申請去評估需求可能陸委會政策面還沒有決定那這也不是你們的問題但是過去講說因為旅客"},{"start":10101.102,"end":10116.383,"text":"兩岸之間這個交流啊尤其疫情的時候歸零了嘛所以這個本身客運就已經沒有需求了所以當時停了那當需求來的時候你們要隨著需求逐步調整對不對我們航港局那個業局長來講幾句話好不好"},{"start":10118.602,"end":10139.741,"text":"報告委員就如同我們剛剛次長回應的跟委員報告在技術面的部分不管是CIQS的配合或是相關的航線的申請等等這個部分我想我們都會預作準備當有這個政策上有所決定的時候我們都會協助業者盡快來恢復航線"},{"start":10140.842,"end":10165.008,"text":"那現在小山通是政策已經決定是已經開放了吧從112年1月份這個春節陸續就已經開放到現在呢1103已經開放一年多了那個政策沒有阻擋你沒有阻擋你沒有阻擋你兩邊在跑的過程中所以專業的需求下一頁我就覺得奇怪先再回去小山通"},{"start":10165.968,"end":10172.556,"text":"那現在政策不擋你了那人家金門縣政府的觀光他應該是觀光處吧已經給你從3月27號給你一個文"},{"start":10178.989,"end":10206.095,"text":"4月23號給你第二個文在談同樣的事情現在對開8班總共16個航班就明顯不夠他也跟你們請託拜託因為人已經到你說大山東目前沒有需求嘛對不對或者政策沒有決定那就先擺著那有需求的部分為什麼到現在已經6月了最後公文給你2到3個月他們只是希望"},{"start":10206.995,"end":10217.288,"text":"現在總共16個航班 是不是先調整到20個航班我坦白講 我不知道現在到底卡到什麼問題 香港局你們有沒有收到這個公文"},{"start":10219.622,"end":10239.571,"text":"那兩岸對開再多兩個航拍有人要做那這個部分到底遇到了什麼問題什麼時候準備回文可以跟我說一下是報告委員那這個部分原來他的函是說要回到疫情前那我們疫情前其實是一天有18個往返比現在多10個往返"},{"start":10240.091,"end":10255.614,"text":"那這個部分後來我們進一步去跟縣府了解其實他們的需求並沒有那麼大那另外他們建議跟航商也是有落差因為航商比較建議是在假日不是啦那我先問你啊"},{"start":10256.615,"end":10275.882,"text":"3月27號這個公文啦好不好那你一個快一個月你又沒回別人3月27號公文講得很清楚是從假日開始16個航班變成20個嘛那你又沒有回啊那當然第二個公文他恢復到疫情前你覺得太多這樣的好不好你們專業考量我覺得當這個航班真的不夠了這個政策是開放的"},{"start":10282.364,"end":10307.086,"text":"旅客需求 而且大部分都是我們臺灣自己的鄉親嘛讓他能夠行的方便透過小山東 這個能不能再多久能夠回答公文有報告委員 這部分我們會盡快也會要 縣政府這邊來確認他們的需求那另外 公文的部分我們已經有請他們已經拖了兩個月啦好 我們會加速 我們加速再半個月啦 給人家一個方向嘛 好不好好的好的 好 謝謝"},{"start":10308.601,"end":10309.422,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是請長賜陳委員早"},{"start":10333.588,"end":10347.686,"text":"市長好基本上我們智慧海港怎麼跟我們整個現在創新的觀光結合這應該是現在安平港最重要的我們的智慧與港"},{"start":10348.387,"end":10348.527,"text":"主席"},{"start":10369.666,"end":10391.437,"text":"來跟委員報告那個港公司在經營安平港的時候除了既有的港的營運以外他周邊的土地如果跟市府有可以融合或是協助市府發展觀光甚至有界面關係的都會跟市府來處理所以您看到上次的芽果跟他周邊的住宅Villa就結合的非常好那這樣會帶動那個應該是有一個"},{"start":10394.879,"end":10396.362,"text":"臺南市民假日也會到那個地方去了解"},{"start":10405.89,"end":10425.361,"text":"所以市長我才會講在安民港它有一個很特殊性除了我們在整個有海港的功能也有運輸通運的功能它也有油氣的功能它也有漁港的功能"},{"start":10426.261,"end":10446.939,"text":"所以它是一個非常特別而且多重性、複雜然後如果能夠整合配套它是一個非常成功的標的可是我們現在有準備如何去用我們的一個智慧海港、智慧與港然後把這些一起來把它整合在一起嗎好"},{"start":10450.894,"end":10472.707,"text":"謝謝委員安民港我們是以北觀光南自貿那觀光的部分目前我們就是結合就是遊艇碼頭的水域他大概水域的話有15.35公頃那他分四期第一期第二期都已經完成了那現在在Villa"},{"start":10473.507,"end":10495.203,"text":"大概到第4期的話還有63個席位那另外一個還有就是水岸護河觀光方面的總共有17.24公頃目前也分3期大概114年明年的話我們分期來動工大概可能這120年可以完工"},{"start":10497.765,"end":10515.641,"text":"你覺得依照你們在作業的程序來得及嗎?你們作業的程序有點拖拖拉拉,這樣來得及嗎?這個是我們是配合承包他們那個開發商的特性,如果他願快的話我們會配合更快"},{"start":10516.341,"end":10538.598,"text":"當然開發商一定是要快啊重點是我們在行政程序當中我們配合得了嗎總是卡關在我們的行政程序當中啊所以我覺得我們希望看的是時效既然我們要把它變成是一個又有休憩又有遊艇又有海港"},{"start":10539.258,"end":10543.542,"text":"我再請教說我們現在在整個智慧海港當中我們會投注哪些精力有無人船"},{"start":10557.168,"end":10582.612,"text":"有無人機還有呢觀光用虛擬體驗這些嗎這個目前我們都有開放我們的港區跟中華電信像無人機就結合它這個港域的一些污染或是一些垃圾那另外還有無人機啊無人機場域的一些巡查這些那你覺得現在的進度如何有達到預期的效果嗎現在都還在驗證當中還在驗證當中那預計什麼時候"},{"start":10587.779,"end":10608.232,"text":"可以讓他很廣闊的去推動所謂的無人船去收集我們這個垃圾海面清潔還有水深的量測那無人機去做這些AI的偵測然後是不是有落水的人員然後去做救生相關的動作那這些還有我們的觀光虛擬體驗"},{"start":10610.553,"end":10638.213,"text":"甚至還有我們這個油污的這個監測設備那這些明年明年明年什麼時候明年什麼時候大概下半年下半年因為中華電力基隆有做現在在做高雄那無人機的部分在台中還有做過我們希望台南速度快一點好不好速度快一點你到下半年明年下半年其實有點晚了"},{"start":10640.074,"end":10640.895,"text":"安平漁港跨港大橋"},{"start":10670.154,"end":10685.826,"text":"再來就是我們另外一個是我們管理局的一個運河、遊河的初餐計畫對不對那這是初餐那初餐的部分什麼時候可以到達市政府沒錯啊那市政府你們給他的他們在上網公告那你預計呢你們沒有掌控"},{"start":10692.418,"end":10693.698,"text":"臺南孩子都知道,運河的功力數"},{"start":10711.71,"end":10734.235,"text":"所以這個大運河計畫．我們要怎麼透過節流清淤．然後來改變它的水質．來進行整個光環境的營造．甚至做清水護岸．空間美化作業．這個當中總共有10.2億喔．那麼還有我們的舊漁市場．這也是管理局的出產．還有我們新篆．"},{"start":10735.755,"end":10749.591,"text":"這也是這個初餐可是我覺得這個大運河計畫是一個很重要很關鍵那我們現在的重點呢我們已經爭取10.2億喔已經送了喔"},{"start":10752.475,"end":10779.956,"text":"委員這個是跟內政部還是跟交通部申請?你們是整個大計畫大運河計畫是整個大計畫每個人所負責的單位不一樣所以我們希望這個大運河計畫這個10點而已就像我剛講的他必須有整個護岸空間因為這個運河是你們所管轄這個整個加上整個安平港"},{"start":10780.957,"end":10783.078,"text":"陳委員發言完畢,現在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在"},{"start":10809.225,"end":10827.603,"text":"現在請黃仁委員發言謝謝主席：有請我們次長及航警局局長今天沒有航警局 航港局航港局業局長"},{"start":10831.465,"end":10860.044,"text":"委員好謝謝你好這個有關於臺中機場國內國際航線及改善原鄉的交通原鄉的交通特別要提出來那在2023這個臺中的國際機場的竣工不僅外貿焕然一新國際班航班也持續開拓臺中國際機場是中部地系連結世界的重要的紐帶發展備受關注那至於這個不但擴充了我們的私"},{"start":10860.404,"end":10861.525,"text":"臺中機場目前113年6月17日國內國際兩岸定期航線"},{"start":10876.104,"end":10890.596,"text":"國內既有定期航線包含花蓮、金門、澎湖、南竿國際就不要陳述了在另屆113年夏季航班又再規劃開闢三條航線成田、名古屋、高松"},{"start":10891.497,"end":10915.35,"text":"所以在過去二三十年前我們臺中有一個航班就是臺中到臺東的航班在二三十年我希望這個部分你們評估而且把這些報告來給我一份然後做一個評估因為現在要開拓的是花蓮花東的觀光路線所以有必要性的在臺中"},{"start":10916.691,"end":10918.012,"text":"請問部長,你同意認同我的看法嗎?"},{"start":10941.361,"end":10959.049,"text":"報告委員謝謝您提出來的見解花蓮台中之間目前還是有航班一週有三班另外您提到往台東的以前有現在沒有這一個航班所以你們評估一下這個觀光的價值有沒有"},{"start":10959.369,"end":10978.181,"text":"因為現在對於臺東花蓮的觀光目前來講當然因為地震的因素造成了臺東花蓮的觀光停擺了而且觀光客幾乎就幾乎這一兩成左右造成我們臺東觀光的這樣的一個生計生存絕對是不利的"},{"start":10978.661,"end":11005.607,"text":"所以如果開闢臺中到臺東的航班我相信除了便捷也讓我們的族人包含我們在西部走廊的觀光有便於他們對臺東花蓮的觀光以上那另外就是我針對花蓮觀光的這個補助的大小眼我特別本心特別要譴責這樣的一個態度臺東人流入二等的公民交通部"},{"start":11008.808,"end":11021.073,"text":"李部長日前表示,將自7月1日起更改為不分平假日補助一千塊。行政院卓榮泰在6月22日到花蓮"},{"start":11023.547,"end":11044.933,"text":"花蓮市視察時,當場指示交通部提前自6月24日實施,再鼓勵遊客踴躍前來花蓮觀光遊玩。第一,請問臺東原本7月1日的觀光補助是否比照花蓮一樣自6月24日實施的觀光補助?第二,"},{"start":11046.874,"end":11069.342,"text":"請問臺東一觀光署的補助規劃只有週一到週四這樣的一個補助一千塊為什麼不能比照花令一樣實施不分平假日補助一千塊這樣的一個大小委員對臺東情何以堪因為地震對我們的連帶的關係跟臺東絕對是有關係的所以這一點我想你們在"},{"start":11070.562,"end":11095.317,"text":"再給我一個報告重新調整因為花蓮地震重創對我們臺東花蓮信服力挺的花蓮當然我們也是相挺花蓮的這樣的一個地震但是到沒想到我們政府竟然連觀光補助都不能一致性對臺東人來講絕對不公平大家知道花蓮發生地震連帶損失最嚴重的"},{"start":11097.178,"end":11119.944,"text":"第二本席再次強烈抗議要求觀光署花蓮在交通、文化及資源的旅遊觀光的生命共同體絕不可以分割更不能大小眼今天部長及觀光署長一定要給台東一個合理的一個交代"},{"start":11120.584,"end":11142.736,"text":"是,委員我跟您報告,這次因為地震0403,主要是在臺七、臺八往臺北的方向,花蓮往臺北的方向,所以花蓮地區大概是往北的中段。那第二個您提到的補助的部分,臺東我們有跟縣政府溝通,那縣長的意思是7月剛好這段時間是臺東的這個熱氣球季,"},{"start":11145.697,"end":11159.842,"text":"現在假日是供不應求所以他認為假日不用在這時候點火他平常是希望能夠來協助所以這個是我們有跟縣府來討論過有節奏的來協助台東但是本縣認為應該是要有一次性好不好"},{"start":11160.622,"end":11179.675,"text":"不是週一到週四而已既然花裡有,臺東應該要有因為我們有生命的共同體對觀光的建設跟觀光的旅遊絕對是有關聯性絕對不能分割不要大小眼市長你能馬上回答嗎委員我想這個部分我們會請觀光署來評估這幾天不是評估,不用評估"},{"start":11184.218,"end":11209.281,"text":"因為上次我已經跟觀光署已經講了他也答應同步進行為什麼會有後面會有一個調整這樣的話我不解好不好麻煩你把這個報告給我好我來跟觀光署提醒喔好以上謝謝好謝謝黃仁委員發言完畢現在請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員發言"},{"start":11223.802,"end":11246.69,"text":"請次長請您次長委員長來看一下我們的PVT第1頁好大部分的公車如果行進到沒有公車專用的道路是不是常常會跟其他的汽機車一起行駛"},{"start":11248.578,"end":11258.187,"text":"公路是公用的沒有錯對那如果說在交通的最繁忙的時段的時候他是不是沒有辦法確實的靠站停車有這種狀況這種狀況的時候身障的朋友們怎麼樣順利上車"},{"start":11262.444,"end":11289.234,"text":"基本上公車還是要盡量靠站因為目前我們對公車站的要求一個當然盡量靠站第二個就是有些導入地地板公車來使用對殘障朋友的話身障朋友的話會比較便利一點我們現在除了身障朋友之外還有視障的部分現在我們的定位的定位專的區域有沒有全部都建置好全國"},{"start":11291.488,"end":11313.966,"text":"報言那個所謂無障礙尤其是這種社長朋友的這個點位的設置目前我記得內政部其實已經取消掉原來從頭到尾要引導的這個設置所以像我們有些航站或是Terminal本身他目前並沒有全部都要設這個大概有很多還是用人為來協助"},{"start":11315.147,"end":11338.62,"text":"鄧維埃協助我是認為說這種身障或者是視障的這種特別是導盲裝的部分因為我們的很多公車站他其實旁邊也沒有什麼有的時候你們特別有在設立說這個無障礙的後車區會有這個設置聲音的輔助可是他有的時候不斷聲音輔助沒有辦法正常的使用也沒有導盲裝"},{"start":11339.82,"end":11367.515,"text":"那這種狀況的話是不是會整體的影響到我國的這個市長的朋友所以是不是可以針對一些重點其實很多都市的人口聚集地他的這個設置是有絕對的必要性所以我是希望可以盤點除了六都之外還有其他的現在的邦安、嘉義市、基隆市等等這些人口聚集區一定要有這些相應的設備特別是我國的高齡化超高齡化的狀況是越來"},{"start":11369.376,"end":11370.937,"text":"交通部跟交通部現在所屬的各局"},{"start":11390.005,"end":11412.887,"text":"有一個無障礙溝通小組事實上我們會定期邀請相關的團體來提供建議那第二個您提到這個地方確實很多地方開始出現高齡者、失障者甚至相關的知障朋友需要輔助那這一塊我想我們路政當然是我會請他們通令全國各縣市"},{"start":11413.687,"end":11441.673,"text":"來看一下這個無障礙貨車空間市長稍微看一下您覺得這一種貨車空間對於不友善不是很有善尤其是這邊這個不友善不過我跟您報告內政部也看到這個問題所以您應該也了解他們最近已經通過一個一個條例有四年四百億的計畫去處理這類人行通道的這個改善跟各縣市政組的協助跟輔導"},{"start":11442.773,"end":11442.993,"text":"新聞基本法"},{"start":11472.042,"end":11472.262,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11492.017,"end":11513.93,"text":"我們剛剛看下一頁就是在上一頁上一頁這邊這一個部分市長的乘客都非常無奈就是測試上報車號都聽不到所以全方位的一個標準至少你的這個指引要做出來它不會各縣市都不一樣有些表現得比較好像台北市有些"},{"start":11515.19,"end":11543.03,"text":"臺北市表現比較不好因為他直接聽不到嘛有些比較稍微好一些其他的縣市這個東西如果各吹各的調這個我覺得是不妥當標準的指引要有那如果竟然有這種404百億的相關的經費下去那標準的指引都要有不要這邊有這邊做A然後那邊做B然後每一個地方他執行的手勢都不同來我們再看下一頁那剛才我們提到自動寫版也是一個方式"},{"start":11544.172,"end":11549.808,"text":"我是希望說應該要強制設置無障礙的自動寫版那這個不是只僅僅只為了這個我們的"},{"start":11553.992,"end":11582.951,"text":"身體不自由的這個朋友那當然對於以後這個我們老年化高齡化之後我認為都是有大的一些相當相當的幫助我也跟藉此機會跟委員還有各位報告斜板的設置早期曾經有相關公司提出但是就是您講的這個斜板一出來的話靠到我們路遠的話有些時候沒有辦法直接無縫的銜接了所以後來才有導入地地板公車的使用"},{"start":11583.171,"end":11583.711,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員發言完畢現在請洪森漢委員發言"},{"start":11625.823,"end":11652.417,"text":"請林次長跟香港局 葉局長請葉局長委員好次長跟局長我想先請你們看一下這個新聞這是發生在2020年的一個新聞有一個加油船的船長在座位的時候因為他爬高所以從6公尺高的爬梯摔落"},{"start":11653.587,"end":11679.047,"text":"摔落以後心臟上面寫受傷可是最後他是重度的身障甚至已經有半身不遂的狀況目前還在這個醫療中那這個事件當時有三家媒體報導但這家公司完全沒有通報無論是通報航港局還是通報地方的勞工局都沒有通報那我在2022年的時候針對這個事件有請"},{"start":11683.916,"end":11712.742,"text":"海港局到這艘船上去做職安狀況的檢查那來看看當時海港局回我的回文喔海港局都說沒有問題那報告裡面寫了什麼防罪啊寫說經查該公司已經提供什麼什麼什麼的還附上了佐證的資料但我後來再請地方的勞工局再去做職安的勞檢一次可以看一下"},{"start":11713.854,"end":11727.192,"text":"有非常多違反法令的事情也就是剛剛航港局說的那些該公司已經提供資料他們附上的佐證的證據都只有購買的收據還有那些設備簽一張"},{"start":11731.803,"end":11749.366,"text":"再往下都是報價單購買的收據可是這些設備到底有沒有使用其實並不知道但當時航港局一樣是回覆我沒有問題這家公司沒有問題但我叫地方勞工局也就是叫我們的這個治安署去檢查卻一大堆問題"},{"start":11750.598,"end":11772.786,"text":"包括剛剛說到這違反法令到底他根本就未設置上下船之安全設備以供工作者往返船使用然後沒有提供一般的安全衛生訓練然後沒有提供安全衛生工作守則這個局長想請問我要問為什麼你們說沒問題別人都看得出問題原因是什麼"},{"start":11775.871,"end":11801.601,"text":"報告委員在委員提醒之後我們就如同委員講的我們的確有同仁跟驗傳中心的同仁一起上去這個檢查這個純薄的這個安全的設施的狀況那我們事實上並不是說完全這個沒有意見沒有提醒你回我的文是說沒有意見啊我沒有提醒你要我回你回我的文是說你沒有問題啊"},{"start":11803.17,"end":11826.012,"text":"可能文字上沒有表達很清楚什麼叫文字上表達沒有很清楚你回我的文就是說沒有問題那包委員這部分我想我們再來做要求部長 局長我想請問齁我們船員相關的勞動權益是用船員法來保障 對不對那局長請問你覺得目前船員法對於我們船員的勞動權益的保障是足夠的嗎"},{"start":11828.804,"end":11838.209,"text":"包圍傳言法基本上是保障傳言勞動權益的特別法所以他的相關條文的設計是基於"},{"start":11842.309,"end":11860.538,"text":"這個我想我們都有持續在做檢視不是什麼持續在檢視你當局長很多年了你對傳言法也非常非常熟悉我現在問以你的專業認為傳言法來保障我們傳言的勞動權益足不足夠又不是第一天上任又不是這禮拜才上任"},{"start":11862.423,"end":11876.648,"text":"這個部分我想我們最近的這個修正草案有針對不同這個航線型態的這個船員應該要給予不同的這個這個勞動條件的保障就讓我來給你看下面幾個新聞"},{"start":11878.767,"end":11902.516,"text":"這個新聞是6月12號臺中港這個灰風輪爆炸三名船員燒燙傷在下面一個這個是2022年10月臺中港德運輪維修作業的時候發生高處墜落的事件在下面一個2022年1月臺中港船員墜海事件再給你看一個這是2021年10月基隆港船員墜落的事件這麼多的事件擺在眼前"},{"start":11903.752,"end":11930.828,"text":"局長你覺得你要怎麼處理對 我想我們會再加強要求還有這個查核這個這個局長你覺得這些問題的發生是我們的法規有問題還是執法有問題對 我想執安衛的這個部分的這個加強的查核我們應該有再加強這個查核跟監督的必要局長你現在這些講這些話這些用這些模糊的言詞今天真的沒有辦法"},{"start":11932.1,"end":11957.325,"text":"來再去搪塞了就像你剛才說你前面剛我叫你去勞檢的那案子你說是他們中文表達有問題你看看後面是什麼樣狀況部長、次長也在現場齁這剛剛說的那位從6公尺高墜下來的船員他在去年的時候被公司解雇退保了這個解雇退保是他還在他就醫的期間被解雇退保"},{"start":11959.123,"end":11981.372,"text":"勞動部的職安署 要求航港局去處理結果今年的4月23號 航港局發了一個公文 成為船公司的幫兇他上面寫 在這個公文上面寫說公司與船員簽訂船員定期僱傭契約為12個月意思是說 這個定期契約到期以後他就不用再符合船員法22條對勞工的保護了"},{"start":11983.946,"end":12005.055,"text":"這是航港局自己發出來的公文明明白白把自己的船員法22條捅了一個大洞跟船公司說只要定期7月到期後你就不用遵守了局長問你你們自己把自己的船員法22條捅了這麼一個大洞出來到底是不是受到"},{"start":12006.377,"end":12028.159,"text":"傳公司的施壓不然怎麼會做出這麼離譜的解釋報告委員並沒有所謂施壓的狀況那這部分我想已經提醒我們同仁這個在法定解釋上要更為謹慎周延那各位報告我們目前會盡快的發函給這個個案的傳言來澄清就在這個依照傳法22條的規定"},{"start":12029.921,"end":12053.967,"text":"他的這個醫療的這個相關的權益不會受到這個定期雇用契約期限屆期的影響局長從一開始我請你們去檢查你們說沒有問題別人檢查就檢出一堆問題你跟我說那只是你們公文寫的寫法有問題到今天你們出了這個韓文用這個方式成為船公社報告我要說其實現在航港局在船員勞動權益上面幾乎是一攤爛帳啊"},{"start":12055.902,"end":12070.122,"text":"我這樣形容並不為過一攤爛帳一堆船員都來跟我們說他們遇到質災的問題遇到勞資爭議的時候都是求助無門完全看不到航港局積極的作為一直在推卸局長"},{"start":12074.045,"end":12083.29,"text":"報告委員這部分我想我們會再做深入這個整體的檢討局長我再呈現下面一張統計表給你看再給我一點點時間這統計表是107年到111年航港局來統計各年度船員職災的人數"},{"start":12091.313,"end":12108.098,"text":"每個年份有兩件、五件、七件、五件一百一十一年只有一件在這一百一十年上面連我剛剛說的那一個從六公尺高摔下來的船員在上面都沒有啊?航港局真的相信你自己統計的這個數字是真的嗎?局長你真的相信你們交出來的這個統計資料是真的嗎?"},{"start":12116.52,"end":12120.122,"text":"為什麼這些新聞上面明明都有的事件在上面都沒有你們有沒有掩蓋還是故意讓通報系統設計的對職災的船員不友善"},{"start":12130.786,"end":12147.353,"text":"我們會做這個通盤這個深入的檢討那如果有錯誤的資訊我們會做立即的盡快的更正局長我這邊在這邊跟你講的已經不是有個案我要跟次長講不是在講個案這整個保障船員勞動的系統根本就是一攤爛帳"},{"start":12151.872,"end":12173.79,"text":"部長我可不可以要求交通部至少要針對傳人權利的保障要有一個通盤的專案檢討的計畫是委員這個應該做我要求每個月來跟我們辦公室匯報一次到底這個改善案計畫進行到什麼地方每一個環節是這樣我跟你講這幾乎目前的對傳人的勞動權利保障幾乎是千瘡百孔的"},{"start":12175.084,"end":12198.941,"text":"包委員這樣齁那個您剛提的統計資料第二個統計的過程事件第三個到底有哪些地方應該要再扣核都是該通報沒通報這幾件然後最後要解釋還成為船公司的幫兇先請航空局整理起來再跟您報告我們要求每個月來跟我們匯報一次到底針對船員權益保障的通盤檢討計畫的進度可以嗎是"},{"start":12201.567,"end":12202.828,"text":"紅塵埃委員發言完畢,現在請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":12240.559,"end":12263.917,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請次長。請次長。好,次長好。今天主題,智慧航安、智慧港灣、港口相關計畫辦理情形。是。今天特別要請次長回去,要針對"},{"start":12265.859,"end":12284.863,"text":"智慧台鐵智慧台鐵智慧台鐵好這個今天就談台鐵雖然台鐵今天不在那因為隧道這個很重要的這個最近又發生了這個河仁隧道南口土石流這個是在6月21號本席在這個時間發生之後"},{"start":12291.434,"end":12300.643,"text":"雖然已經知道了但是還是要搭火車還是要搭火車去花蓮所以我當天還是搭火車而我搭的那班車還是滿滿的"},{"start":12302.864,"end":12327.157,"text":"大家仍然很勇敢的繼續搭火車所以這個部分是我們必須要去加強、去精進相關的這些那因為這次的一個台鐵229車次新式強號因為撞到這個土石流造成這個司機手骨折"},{"start":12327.779,"end":12327.799,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":12334.595,"end":12361.41,"text":"這個河仁車站跟崇德車站之間所以這個部落是一個需要去加強的地方還好有這個隧道大家可以躲避包括這個之前的0403地震台八線也是因為有明隧道所以怎麼樣去加強這個設施的改善這個是不是要因為這個整個"},{"start":12364.693,"end":12383.905,"text":"零四零三地震之後這個移震的不斷前天還在市集所以移震不斷所以在怎麼樣去加強這個相關的這些偵測民隧道的一個需要性整體的去評估了是"},{"start":12386.567,"end":12391.292,"text":"昨天的媒體有報導19分鐘前在你們台鐵的螢幕上被認為已經看見了堵石流今天早上"},{"start":12404.626,"end":12423.586,"text":"9點多你們有澄清台鐵有澄清說事實上這個監視器並不是針對這方面的不管是不是本席不是要去不追究責任最主要是說怎麼去精進去強化"},{"start":12425.647,"end":12451.727,"text":"怎麼樣今天的主題就是智慧航安、智慧港口、智慧台鐵那應該要更要加入最起碼從北回鐵路開始因為公路也是你管的俗話改都沒有問題"},{"start":12453.939,"end":12462.841,"text":"然後蘇花安現在怎麼樣去加快在還沒有完成開始動工之前怎麼樣去加智慧"},{"start":12464.447,"end":12470.613,"text":"是,可以,跟委員報告,花東蘇花路段一直是交通部放很大的心力在上面,您大家也了解"},{"start":12485.988,"end":12510.751,"text":"所以一直在路段現在是部長要求宜蘭、花蓮、台東一直在路段土石流潛勢區都要先標示出來第二個鐵公路系統您剛剛講的明隧道可不可以有蓋明隧道的空間那它還沒蓋之前先做潛勢區域的偵測跟預警所以這些工作都是目前我們部長要求鐵公路單位要處理的"},{"start":12511.531,"end":12512.391,"text":"目前我們部長6月23號開過會﹖把花蓮水保、農委部的水保﹖"},{"start":12540.743,"end":12543.324,"text":"加強這個落實的告警的系統這個更加加快好不好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12572.023,"end":12573.625,"text":"謝謝政天才委員：發言完畢"},{"start":12595.078,"end":12614.375,"text":"謝謝主席這個請交通部林次長請林次長還有航港局葉局長請葉局長港澳公司李董事長李董事長請問一號就是我們離岸風電大概在桃園以南跟彰化以北那當然這個部分"},{"start":12616.468,"end":12639.353,"text":"未來的離岸風電的機組會密集在這個航線大概我說的這個區域會有很多的離岸風機那未來怎麼樣跟你們這個系統這個平台怎麼樣能夠跟這些離岸風機能夠提高他的這個安全係數你們有沒有相關的規劃"},{"start":12642.05,"end":12667.97,"text":"報告委員目前臺中章化地區是目前風機的主要密閉區所以章化地段我們航港局這一次設了4座雷達站那是未來就是明年開始要做現在接控的區域是673平方公里那裝了這4座雷達站再加上VTS系統可以擴充到4000公里所以安全無虞"},{"start":12670.352,"end":12696.151,"text":"另外我想請教一下李董事長對於這個高雄港整個智慧港灣的推動目前主要的重點在哪裡我們就是配合我們的整個場域就是那個超船還有就是海氣廈你預算分配啊比如說你主要的港口高港、基港跟台中港"},{"start":12697.883,"end":12715.699,"text":"這個三個主要的港口那你在我特別關心這個高雄市的高雄港的這個狀況你能不能稍微簡述一下主要就是我們這個智慧港口就是從2017年就開始做那在2021年我們在就是在"},{"start":12717.941,"end":12741.133,"text":"主要就是操船系統、海氣箱還有相關的一些人流物流的一些門哨這些方面的做那剛開始的話就是以高雄港為主所以高雄港的話有成效以後我再就是擴及所有的港口"},{"start":12743.834,"end":12752.278,"text":"高雄港主要是做完以後就往別的港口做你這裡投入的預算大概多少錢?高雄港的部分從2017年開始"},{"start":12760.574,"end":12788.007,"text":"我希望變成一個安全安全有效率的港口有個安全然後這個有效率的這個國際有競爭力的港口很重要這個船舶出入安全最重要那你如果沒有安全系統輔助我想這個當然對這個進出港的這個安全性就會降低嘛所以這部分我請這個董事長帶來特別的努力好會後準備那個相關的資料"},{"start":12788.587,"end":12815.83,"text":"那相關的這個系統有沒有用在航空的部分呢?報告委員,航空已經有既有的系統我們航管自動化跟航管的引導目前夠不夠目前現在的功能建設目前還在提升因為全世界航管的部分是一直與時俱進那它每10年為一個循環會一直提升現在IQ有一個我們叫航管的提升計畫未來10年的"},{"start":12816.971,"end":12817.271,"text":"小港機場部份"},{"start":12842.279,"end":12852.643,"text":"香港機場本身就有相關的IRS助導航系統我們現在國內主要機場還是沒有辦法24小時營運桃園可以但是它的離峰時間大概從12點以後5月12點以後到下午4點起降班機很少"},{"start":12865.537,"end":12880.962,"text":"您說的是下午還是晚上?我當然是晚上了晚上沒有班機晚上那個高雄沒有班機我是說不是小港那個桃園桃園還是有一些大概一兩點起飛的那個是過境轉機那現在小港機場"},{"start":12882.628,"end":12902.123,"text":"未來第二期應該是新的擴建計畫新的擴建計畫當然要有新的能量新的服務能量要上來包括航班密集度航線密集度都要提升有沒有可能在未來擴建之後營運時間會拉長"},{"start":12904.638,"end":12925.151,"text":"跟委員報告投入金額蠻高的881分兩期但是要延長營業時間跟當地居民跟噪音管制有關所以目前是高雄有兩個里是反對延長因為每次我們甚至連外島要回來回去超過12點也都要先打個招呼才能"},{"start":12925.911,"end":12947.262,"text":"除非為了 比如說 這種12點管制到早上的4點 6點那這段時間是可能會維持多久 就是說管制6個小時應該說只要宵禁都沒有回擊我知道啦 但是宵禁的這個禁令 有沒有可能有更好的替代方案呢"},{"start":12947.779,"end":12964.584,"text":"目前民眾跟里長們沒有不同意主要是市政府呢市政府是看民眾的意見所以是當地民意的反對好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝邱志偉委員發言完畢現在請陳培鈺委員發言好 謝謝主席那有請次長 謝謝請次長"},{"start":12982.536,"end":13006.421,"text":"市長早安那上個禮拜在台鐵又發生相關的事故我想市長你非常清楚卓榮泰院長甚至直接的跟花蓮鄉親道歉說努力的還不夠快我想這件事情是悲劇我自己在花蓮住了將近20年從學生時代到我結婚到生了孩子或者非常多朋友親朋友都會搭火車到花蓮來我想鐵路安全這件事情是大家共同的期待"},{"start":13007.461,"end":13007.741,"text":"當然 院都有列管"},{"start":13025.262,"end":13052.683,"text":"沒錯沒錯都有列管嘛可是之前有一個台鐵的新聞有一個比較新三色的新聞因為我投影片還沒出來我就唸這個內容給你聽不知道次長你有沒有印象他說在漢本隧道那一次我被發現就慘了我會被起訴是公共危險罪我那個工作就沒有了這個政工發現兩人的先師對話我要講的不是這個八卦我要講的是如果在這一次的火車行車事當中真的發生了意外"},{"start":13053.624,"end":13080.892,"text":"那你覺得 次長你覺得有任何機制可以預防這個問題嗎報告委員這個議題我不知道臺鐵有沒有做調查臺鐵他們的做法呢他們對外的說法就是這位員工調離員工作並由政風機務運安等單位會同競訴進行釐清所以要確認清楚一樣是個案嘛完全沒有通案的問題我們來往下看可是剛剛您說了運安會給的建議非常的重要審慎評估而且要列管在109年"},{"start":13082.913,"end":13108.208,"text":"新馬站重大鐵道事故當時運安會給交通部鐵道局的建議是這樣子明定機車駕駛室內安裝具備防撞及防火功能的聲音影像記錄器記錄器至少應該有連續錄音錄影兩個小時以內的能力記錄內容僅止用於事故調查公開跟發布還要有適當的限制範圍也就是說兼顧了隱私跟安全請問次長您認同嗎"},{"start":13110.389,"end":13110.549,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":13128.056,"end":13144.831,"text":"我們看到你們給那個鐵路局給的回應一二年十二月二十號相關的你們回覆運安會反對立場說有關於機車駕駛室內建制錄音影記錄器這個部分仍有爭論尤其臺鐵局的駕駛反彈聲浪盛大"},{"start":13145.692,"end":13173.364,"text":"甚至還有下面的說明我就不再一一念了請問次長你覺得這真的是這樣嗎這沒有直接相關嗎三年了要演繹那請問現在演繹的進度是什麼當我們的院長在替這件事情為國人道歉對花蓮鄉親道歉的時候我們到底還要等到什麼時候才可以看到相關的安全機制相關的影音記錄器跟相關的引用或者是相關的延伸到底我們還可以怎麼做我們現在看下一頁"},{"start":13174.244,"end":13191.468,"text":"甚至在這個相關回覆當中,你們自己也提到了加拿大針對駕駛室內建置錄音器的做法,美國都有相關做法了這是國外的經驗,那我們來看台灣的經驗,這是你們自己寫的喔在台灣的環狀線、基捷、淡海輕軌、高雄輕軌都已經在駕駛室內裝設影音記錄器三年了,次長你告訴我們該怎麼辦?"},{"start":13199.293,"end":13221.261,"text":"跟委員報告我們要讓院長一再道歉嗎還是要讓我們的總統道歉今天鐵道局沒來我所聽到的訊息是第一個車廂內的噪音如果很大裝這一類的儀器其實它能收錄到的這個效果並不是很好這是第一個那第二個是我們工會的同仁包含駕駛他們可能會認為"},{"start":13222.881,"end":13223.101,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":13242.222,"end":13266.986,"text":"執政團隊對於這件事情我相信是在意的我相信我們兼顧駕駛員的隱私跟相關的權益跟乘客的安全這件事情絕對不會沒有橫平的地方我們辦公室積極的要求時間有限我們希望在三個月內研議兼具保障隱私跟最低度利用的做法召開會議進行溝通再次強調政府對於道路安全工作的態度請問次長您認同嗎報委應該的"},{"start":13269.867,"end":13273.83,"text":"有沒有機會在今年年底以前完成鐵路行車規則第37條還有68條的修正草案那我相信應該也不是次長您可以承諾的可是您可不可以表示一下您的態度跟看法"},{"start":13296.56,"end":13309.93,"text":"我認為對於行車安全有關的法規執行作為SOP都應該要調整那接下來最後公司化之後行車安全改善策略一個月內提供報告可以嗎"},{"start":13312.266,"end":13325.514,"text":"請台鐵公司來處理應該可以應該可以確定可以嗎可以吧我們會再追蹤好嗎可以好謝謝以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳培宇委員發言完畢現在請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":13335.373,"end":13345.248,"text":"報告主席．在場的委員先進．列系列政府計劃所長．官員．會長．工作夥伴．媒體記者．女士先生．有請林次長和臺港局．臺港公司李董事長好"},{"start":13348.36,"end":13366.8,"text":"市長好 董事長好其實這是我第三度應該李董事長很清楚我在談港區要設置氫能磚區建置基建工業剩餘熱能再利用一地減碳好 我們來先看一下荷蘭將打造全球最大的綠色氫氣廠他打算在路德丹港"},{"start":13367.501,"end":13396.699,"text":"用一個最大規模的綠色氫氣廠用離岸風電產生的電力產生氫氣再用原來的油氣管線銷往歐洲請問次長你大概有略略聽聞吧知道齁好我們來看一下他現況是怎樣現況這就是歐洲氫能樞紐的雄心壯志這裡面有負責生產的有進口的也有管道運輸的還有加氫站未來還有1000輛的氫能卡車運送氫能的像運油的油槽車一樣在安特惠普跟杜伊斯堡和路德丹之間行駛好我們現在看"},{"start":13397.199,"end":13423.578,"text":"那目前路太安的構想是這樣短期內他的綠氫產量不夠他用燃氫、碳補濁來產生氫氣長期來看他用他們的風光綠能發電來產生綠氫來產生電解水縱使這樣還是不夠往下看他這裡面還思考到縱使在荷蘭縱使在歐洲他還要怎麼樣進口用綠氫、綠氨的方式輸入義太安然後呢這個能源中心還要管線輸入請問"},{"start":13426.5,"end":13447.879,"text":"經濟部對我們國內我們本身的綠電能跟荷蘭比嗎?荷蘭的綠電情況可能不太了解了我跟你說其實台灣的風電潛力是遠高過於荷蘭往下看來所以我們再看一下日本的橫濱港它跟陸陸島港也是這樣的規劃日本其實沒太多綠電"},{"start":13448.76,"end":13467.603,"text":"但是他有限的綠電他用來怎麼樣來產生綠電跟氫能再往下看他的潔淨燃料因為日本大量的依賴燃料進口所以他一個潔淨燃料家族的專用碼頭而且免徵進港費用這樣的方式來取代他們國內或使用他們國內的液化天然氣甲烷和鞍"},{"start":13469.037,"end":13485.265,"text":"那這個看起來這是未來IMO他們船舶淨零的目標日本是不是值我們世界航運的牛兒?是嗎?所以他要用捷徑燃料來往下看所以是不是可以請次長開始積極的要求臺港公司用港區設置輕能專用區域包括碼頭生產儲存跟運用"},{"start":13489.687,"end":13517.328,"text":"我先請董事長跟您報告我想那個清冷的發展是世界潮流那整個港我們港公司在港口的那個是配合剛好你剛有談到就是濾清濾清這個就是離岸風電的定律來置清對置清那進口呢如果進口我們傳播要加潔淨能源進口的這些油槽他可能不是裝LNG了他可能是裝氨啦是"},{"start":13517.688,"end":13533.905,"text":"是 那這些你們的管線都準備好了嗎?所以我們在針對這個青龍的話目前有盤點我的臺北港有一個南碼頭地區是 那高雄呢?高雄的話就是我們洲際二級旁邊是一個那個"},{"start":13536.307,"end":13543.291,"text":"你這些珍貴的港區空間目前有一部分是用來組裝離岸風機的對不對那未來他們是不是有用來儲存氫能有準備給做氫能產製氫的一個工廠有沒有"},{"start":13556.059,"end":13572.576,"text":"我想李昂峰這個開發商他也針對氫能是這個趨勢他也跟我們一直在探討那所以我們在台中也有盤點那你說剛剛有到安的部分的話我們也就是跟台肥還有CIP還有那個各本哈根"},{"start":13577.401,"end":13594.576,"text":"對,好,所以我要跟次長說,今天又都是副首長來,要請經濟部,甚至跟網上的行政院高層,要強調,氫能這個趨勢,台灣要做好準備,連日本,連荷蘭,他們都有這樣的雄心壯志,就算是日本他是一個能源輸入國,他都想到了潔淨燃料,他都想到進口的綠安,呃,氫能,來,呃,"},{"start":13597.258,"end":13609.666,"text":"來提供他國內輕能的需求所以港區的空間可能所需要的油槽不只是台電公司去三接而已可能我們就有了港區到擴充這樣的接收能力是不是市長可以說明一下"},{"start":13610.424,"end":13633.096,"text":"跟委員報告確實因為IMO規定安、清跟LNG都是未來乾淨能源我們現在船公司我們全國船運力在全世界也是蠻高的第8名所以運力也蠻強所以基本上我所知道像玉米航運長榮甚至陽明都已經我上週問過你們部長已經都開始了"},{"start":13634.577,"end":13636.299,"text":"因為在我們港區附近會有很多工業區他可能需要就近使用氫能"},{"start":13660.52,"end":13661.461,"text":"目前這一個港區的話如果說是工業要轉成這個大概只有三層的那個所以港區的話剛好是高雄港那裡"},{"start":13684.514,"end":13690.759,"text":"請評估與港區設立親人專用區域﹑含專用碼頭及生產儲存運用的基礎建設的可行性。最後請評估港區結合鄰近工業區建置工業剩餘熱能再利用設施的可行性。"},{"start":13710.336,"end":13711.137,"text":"現在請翁曉琳委員發言有請次長"},{"start":13735.116,"end":13744.204,"text":"市長您好是這樣的因為本席最近有接到有民眾反映一件事情就是呢在"},{"start":13745.592,"end":13771.733,"text":"一個駭客的論壇裡面應該算是黑貌黑客一個犯罪論壇那他就公佈了一次大規模的資料洩露事件因為這個事情其實跟今天的報告也是有關係你們談這個智慧航安智慧港灣這個大家委員最關心的議題還是有關於各智慧外洩的事情那麼所以本席在這邊有特別提出這個近期發生的這個案子"},{"start":13772.313,"end":13786.551,"text":"就是在6月5號有一個黑貓黑客犯罪論壇公布了一次大規模的資料洩漏事件他涉及了臺灣旅館業者有8萬筆的地方相關資料都洩漏了那洩漏的數據"},{"start":13787.893,"end":13812.135,"text":"包括像時間﹑身份證字號﹑支付方式﹑性別﹑名字﹑入住退房日期﹑電子郵件﹑以及部分的地址那麼洩漏資料的來源甚至包括像是﹑雅谷遊艇度假村﹑阿里山賓館﹑臺中林酒店和別墅俱樂部等等這些知名的旅館業者而這些旅館的網站呢看起來都是由一個叫做2A多媒體創意團隊網頁公司所製作"},{"start":13815.017,"end":13828.299,"text":"因為這是涉及到有關於就是旅館業的各自外洩的問題那所以本席想要請教一下就目前交通部這裡對於旅館業者的各自的管理有哪些措施"},{"start":13830.305,"end":13855.789,"text":"報告委員,我們對監管的業者都有要求要提立類似資安保護計畫那第二個呢,個資法現在也修正了嘛原來委員規定是負責人跟公司罰20萬現在都已經提升到相當高的金額那第三個呢,是一旦有發生這樣的事件發生像這是觀光署,我們應該是相關的組要去做行政檢查是,你們有獲知這個訊息嗎?這個可能要問觀光署,我不曉得"},{"start":13860.319,"end":13871.283,"text":"好那因為我想這個案子其實蠻重要的因為他畢竟洩露8萬筆的地方相關資料而且從6月5號就開始在這個論壇上有伴送這個資料對那因此呢這個議題我希望就是交通部能夠關注那麼當然本席其實也有看了你們目前的有關的法規那主要是有一個叫做交通部指定觀光產業"},{"start":13885.749,"end":13888.431,"text":"主要是包含觀光旅館業、民宿業、觀光遊樂業等等,但是並沒有包含平台。"},{"start":13903.504,"end":13906.745,"text":"各位報告因為我們相關的監管單位是根據目的事業那平台的部分可能要看是不是"},{"start":13926.121,"end":13943.337,"text":"對 因為這個部分的話 看起來交通部觀光署是沒有follow到現在大家民間平常的訂房的習慣但是他們就算是在國外 會不會在國內也有一些分公司或者是說也應該要去思考是否要納管"},{"start":13944.558,"end":13969.427,"text":"現在臺灣平台的訂房網站非常多而且大部分也都是會要求訂戶就是透過訂房網去訂的有各自的一些問題那這些議題都蠻重要的是 包委員我請觀光署來瞭解看看它基本上應該都跟金流有關跟資訊流有關所以這個我請他們溯源去了解"},{"start":13970.127,"end":13992.301,"text":"對而且這個你們的剛剛講的那個各自的計畫及那個計畫辦法應該也要做滾動式的檢討修正那麼還有就是說在這個原來的所定的辦法裡面是要求旅宿業要保有消費者個人資料達8000筆以上他才需要去擬定那個相關的計畫那這個8000筆資料會不會這個門檻太低了應該是要"},{"start":13998.084,"end":14004.97,"text":"這擴大就是說讓可能已經開始經營以旅館業為作為經營事業的那他就應該要擬定相關的個資保護計畫尤其像我們剛剛講的前面的這8萬筆的資料都外洩說不定現在這些旅館業者都還不知道有這樣的一個狀況那麼如果說知道的話那後續的如何去保護消費者的措施"},{"start":14021.644,"end":14021.864,"text":"主席"},{"start":14051.684,"end":14078.612,"text":"是那另外呢我這邊也要請求就是交通部希望能夠將剛剛我們講的就是本席所說的這個在犯罪論壇上面販售個資的案子然後去進行檢查並且也能夠提供書面資料給我在你們檢查調查清楚之後是不是可以競速的將相關的報告給我請求您把資料給我們"},{"start":14079.312,"end":14080.074,"text":"現在請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":14108.396,"end":14113.259,"text":"好 那就麻煩次長跟我們還有港務公司李董事長委員好"},{"start":14119.647,"end":14139.198,"text":"謝謝,那我們三位長官,那今天討論到港務嘛,那當然智慧化的東西很好啦,那主要我今天想要問的是一些其他的東西,就是我們的我國周邊海域啊,時常都會有一些可能船趴發生了一些意外嘛,或者是一些災害"},{"start":14139.818,"end":14164.35,"text":"那就會有一些搶救的一些問題那有時候因為船主他本身可能就發生事故了之後他就評估了一下就白爛了嘛對不對很多這樣的情形那根據統計我們目前針對這幾年有關一些我們航港局待處理外籍船趴事件的墊付費用我們預估"},{"start":14167.071,"end":14183.681,"text":"我們實際大概墊負了2億多,大概2億5,這個數字如果說有錯你們可以指正一下那實際上我們可能扣一些保險或是扣押等等的這些扣掉,我們預計還會有待追查的費用大概1億6這樣子的一個數字"},{"start":14186.443,"end":14195.654,"text":"這數字應該是差不多嘛那我想確認一下那這些還沒有著落的待追償費用我們後續是會怎麼樣子來追討"},{"start":14201.125,"end":14215.229,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分分兩個部分跟委員報告第一個是外籍的部分是那外籍部分我們是透過外交部包括在台的這個住處他們的傳籍國"},{"start":14218.51,"end":14220.03,"text":"有成功的案例嗎?透過外交管道?"},{"start":14240.835,"end":14265.273,"text":"目前還沒有確實有這個報告另外一個部分是陸籍跟港澳的部分的傳播這部分是透過陸委會另外一方面是國籍的傳播部分國籍傳播部分我們可以透過行政處分的方式行政執行的方式我們會去透過行政執行署去追"},{"start":14274.282,"end":14287.416,"text":"國內應該是比較沒有問題啦那重點是國外跟港澳的嘛那目前就是除了待追查費用1億6之外那可能有一些因為還要打撈還沒有進行打撈的預估的費用應該也是達到了1億多的一個規模啦"},{"start":14288.459,"end":14316.096,"text":"那這個加起來如果說把我們這個待追長的預估將來我們要去執行一些打撈作業加起來接近3億元的一些預算目前都是由我們的韓港建設基金在支應嘛對不對是那目前來看剛剛您說透過外交管道去做追長看起來好像是並沒有一些強制力嘛只是好像透過我們的外交部門來跟他們的國家的部門來給他們一些"},{"start":14317.17,"end":14329.406,"text":"柔性的勸說聽起來好像是這樣是不是?他們的國家我們好像之間並沒有一些相關的協議能夠透過司法的手段來要求他們的國家來幫我們追償這樣的基欠的款項來還給我國"},{"start":14331.968,"end":14354.715,"text":"這部分的確是存在實質上的困難那我跟委員報告我們現在這個已經努力了兩三年的一個做具體的做法跟方向因為外籍的這個次標論傳他們經常會有這個如果發生事故這個沒有足夠的保險或是不願意這個負起這個海事責任的問題所以我們現在在進出港的這個"},{"start":14356.355,"end":14378.848,"text":"保險的這個檢查部分我們叫PMI的保險這個叫傳統責任險這部分我們是非常嚴格的在進行實質的審查那這幾年經過審查之後這一種沒有足夠保險的船舶進入我港口的這個情形已經有明顯的這個減少"},{"start":14380.629,"end":14406.001,"text":"所以這部分我想對賀祖這種赤標潤船在我國這個周邊海域活動或是進出我國港口的這個情形我想是一個有效做法所以短期間內是透過保險確認他如果說真的要駛入我們的海域進來之類的那我們要確認他有足夠的保險當他發生意外的時候我們是有足夠的追長的管道能夠把這個費用能夠"},{"start":14407.677,"end":14436.051,"text":"不要當冤大頭去代電這樣子是是是那因為這個依照國際海運的慣例這個通常都是由這個我剛剛報告的保險來清場這個是那這個就是之後嘛就是現在開始或是之前已經開始的一些作為那確實可能可以防範之後發生一些事情那我們也當然我們也是這個支持這樣子的做法不能讓我們國家的錢來替外國的船隻來代電費用那只是之前之前這些款項還是要麻煩我們"},{"start":14437.051,"end":14440.813,"text":"我們會努力追查我們也會請教法律專業的這個諮詢來採取這個必要法律行動"},{"start":14466.51,"end":14467.15,"text":"今天無人機技術又發達了"},{"start":14493.493,"end":14519.698,"text":"那未來其實大家對無人機的使用都會有很多的想像包括現在這個可能都是用摩托車、Foodpanda、Uber Eats在送以後可能會用一些無人載具來送一些外送之類的那我們是不是現在已經有針對我們空域的部分去設定類似飛機這樣子的一些航空的一些無人機空域的一些管制的規劃我們現在是有再開始啟動了嗎?"},{"start":14520.998,"end":14539.946,"text":"跟委員報告無人機的管理人機空域都已經在管已經管了4年多了是那第二個您提到這個用無人機送貨啦或是啟動甚至以後載人都有可能是那這一類的議題美國FA跟IQ相關的部門"},{"start":14540.646,"end":14540.806,"text":"主席"},{"start":14558.319,"end":14558.639,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14578.47,"end":14579.931,"text":"現在請林柱英委員．林柱英委員．林柱英委員不在．現在請林思敏委員．"},{"start":14602.088,"end":14630.463,"text":"林思敏委員．林思敏委員不在．現在請蘇清泉委員．蘇清泉委員．蘇清泉委員不在．現在請徐欣盈委員．徐欣盈委員．徐欣盈委員不在．現在請林德福委員．林德福委員．林德福委員不在．現在請李博毅委員．李博毅委員．李博毅委員不在．現在請王美惠委員．王美惠委員．王美惠委員不在．"},{"start":14631.403,"end":14655.061,"text":"登記質詢委員．均已發言完畢．作以下決定．報告及詢答完畢．委員．領導府李博義所提書面質詢．列入紀錄並刊登公報．委員與質詢中要求提供相關書面資料．或未及答覆部分．請交通部競速以書面答覆．本日議程處理完畢"},{"start":14664.343,"end":14691.681,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"16035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16035","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbcf5366a7ae6bcaf7b6918ac9a8133975627684c85f64cd7b20f550b79667337c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-26T08:31:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T12:05:00+08:00","duration":12839,"影片長度":"03:33:59","委員發言時間":"08:31:01 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那我們現在進行報告事項第二案請宣讀邀請經濟部部長就面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為進行報告．並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1948.513,"end":1976.34,"text":"好,那我們146待會等到主法定人數我們再做確認那本日議程排定的是面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為進行報告並備質詢那現在因為我們的這個顧部長經濟部部長他公出那請假由連錦章次長代表列席連次長調生之後首次"},{"start":1976.96,"end":1983.426,"text":"到我們本委會來做備詢首先要恭喜連次長那現在我們請經濟部連錦章次長進行報告"},{"start":1996.604,"end":2023.988,"text":"主席、各位委員．承蒙國委員會邀請本部就經濟部面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層的因應作為進行報告那本部所屬臺電、中油、臺糖及臺水公司等國營事業具公共事業與生產事業的雙重經營特性堅固穩定充分公民民生與公會發展的要求並與人民生活及社會經濟發展息息相關因此公私人力應用行行"},{"start":2024.588,"end":2039.98,"text":"有關營運發展及提供民眾優質的服務品質那各4類人力為什麼產生斷層主要原因有下列三類一個就是82年到93年因應民運化政策採用精簡人力停止禁用新進人員後來從93年因為民運化趨緩所以才又開始禁用人力這中間產生了10年的斷層"},{"start":2047.225,"end":2057.907,"text":"另外一個就是97年勞基法因為退休人員從60年到65歲造成國營稅人員老化的問題另外一個就是在預算員的部分在"},{"start":2059.062,"end":2083.239,"text":"主計的相關規定是不能超過前3年的一個用年費費率的平均式再來是下年度不能超過上年度預算原有30%所以造成一些禁用原有一個人力的限制那針對這個問題經濟部提出了以下幾個相對應的一個改善措施那其中有關台電、中油、台糖、台水等等這些措施在簡報上"},{"start":2085,"end":2112.401,"text":"請大請委員參考我簡略的大概講幾個措施第一個就是我們提前的應用未來年度空缺的一個方案等於是說把未來的空缺我們可以在預算額度的情況下讓你提前去應用另外一個就是我們透過產學合作採取多元零採的管道那透過一些產學合作或是一些獎學金的制度然後來多方的禁用人力另外一個"},{"start":2113.837,"end":2132.058,"text":"就是我們針對這些進來的這些人力我們強化一些新進人員的實習訓練跟考核還有職務論調而且這種國營事業是有一些師徒制我們也進行了一些實施業師的一個制度來推動整個一個人才培訓的一個訓練"},{"start":2134.36,"end":2162.903,"text":"本部所屬事業未來5年已經到現在來看已經沒有比較大的一個退休潮而且實際的一個人齡已經從之前的差不多55歲占大比例現在已經縮短到平均年齡差不多到45歲左右所以這一部分就目前來講我們已經大幅度的改善這樣人力的一個短缺的一個狀況那最近我們台電中有台糖台水等世家也都配合能源轉型提升供應潤性等"},{"start":2163.804,"end":2165.265,"text":"那以上報告進行各位委員支持跟指教"},{"start":2196.563,"end":2197.204,"text":"請走出來敬禮"},{"start":2213.364,"end":2230.357,"text":"行政院人事行政總署的書面報告我們請各位委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們進行詢答那委員詢答前主席台依循慣例做幾項的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時加1分"},{"start":2231.718,"end":2243.829,"text":"非本委員會的委員了4分鐘10點半截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位的林黛樺委員請做詢問有請次長我們請林次長"},{"start":2253.868,"end":2269.066,"text":"好那我們就針對國營事業的人力需求我們希望他是穩定發展而且人力就是我們企業的競爭力好我們針對有三個部分跟次長討論第一個人才斷層的嚴重營運是會受到影響嗎"},{"start":2273.131,"end":2287.267,"text":"第二個未來10年人力缺口怎麼補齊本席兩項建議第一個加強產學合作升更基層培訓第二個全面推動國營事業的自動化跟智慧化第三個也有一個具體建議"},{"start":2288.388,"end":2308.179,"text":"好,那在斷層當中在您的簡報也有提出退休高峰其實你們在109年的時候開始啟動這樣的一個議題的重視也這個65歲的介林高峰也會在119年來完整的呈現而當中最緊急的也就是在明年年"},{"start":2310.619,"end":2327.904,"text":"一百一十九年到一百一十四年將會出現最高峰甚至會達到五千到七千人以上的退休人口那時候省農經省部長的時候也正式到這樣的問題下令說一定要補齊缺口而且強調過渡期不可以有人才方"},{"start":2328.504,"end":2350.238,"text":"所以5年內要補齊7314人但是台電糖水這5年來補足的狀況不是很理想是呈現怎麼樣呢到今年為止你現有公司的總人數跟預算的元額總共台電糖水缺目前就缺了4291人好在你們也盤點了從明年開始"},{"start":2356.162,"end":2380.327,"text":"剛才的4291人是目前的缺口你未來10年總共盤點出來台電糖水是110704291再加上未來10年到123年的11070人按照你們現在的國營事業推一補一那如果再加上我們現在生育率排名是世界倒數第二"},{"start":2381.047,"end":2393.841,"text":"可能這樣人力缺口是永遠補不起的好那未來10年這個人力缺口所以呢本期在102年就開始倡議在地的高中職與國營事業產學專班也因為本期的倡議開啟了國營事業與高中職階段能夠就地培養人才"},{"start":2400.888,"end":2421.699,"text":"完成了這以下產學專班所以我在這邊也非常感謝台電唐水各位董作以及同仁人事單位的支持中油跟我林園高中跟小港高中的產學專班台電跟小港高中的產學專班台水跟六龜高中的產學專班台船跟中鋼集團跟高院工商"},{"start":2422.259,"end":2436.034,"text":"以及我民間的大社石化專區跟仁武高中中華電信與岐山農工等都還有相關的進行是在進行洽談當中好那這個產學合作有什麼好處呢"},{"start":2437.099,"end":2458.469,"text":"那我想這個次長你也很了解這個在地的人才我留用人才甚至我們的專班辦到熊中熊女他不去念他回來讀我們的產學專班這當然是我們國營事業的相關的這個福利制度還有你們在產學當中讓家長都很清楚我們國營事業整個在轉型過程當中的一個現況能取得家長的認同"},{"start":2463.291,"end":2477.502,"text":"所以這個目前我這個首創之軀是我們的中油所以甚至我們李順經理董事長我非常感謝他他甚至都認定我們林園高中就是中油所屬的"},{"start":2478.183,"end":2478.443,"text":"在高雄"},{"start":2502.055,"end":2519.476,"text":"還有哪些產學專班可以來進行規劃跟來執行的這是第一個等一下要請次長您來回應好那在但是呢針對全面推動國營事業的自動化跟智慧化"},{"start":2520.257,"end":2530.873,"text":"在本期去年的時候我就做了要求所以我也感謝中油他有來這個經濟部這邊還有中油這邊你們結合了公園院電光進公園院的電光的這個"},{"start":2536.04,"end":2562.517,"text":"的專業進行了國產武軍專晚節和AIOT所以去年7月去年10月的時候經濟部技術師也提供公研院POC的驗證經費而且年底去年12月的時候完成功能的驗證在今年3月的時候技術師也帶著公研院去看了這個成果那我也感謝中友他們也覺得說這確實是可行的可是"},{"start":2563.117,"end":2580.707,"text":"他說如果我要全面執行要明年的7月這就是緩慢但是他有去回應經濟部以及他也認知到中油本身也有這樣的需求在這個智慧化的需求好相關智慧化跟自動化跟智慧化的這個機制"},{"start":2583.548,"end":2592.614,"text":"雖然不能解決人員禁用但它可以減少人力需求的壓力我就以我林園廠來講它有三清四清關鍵是相當複雜我們現在的坐月區域的巡檢跟環廠道路的巡檢現在是用什麼用人力"},{"start":2600.299,"end":2620.691,"text":"我們走在場區外我用肉眼去看啊那邊漏了好那我就趕快來回報啟動檢查機制為什麼我這邊就可以用無人機無人載具不是無人機是無人載具跟AI影像辨識那當然我們知道它是一個工業區所以無人載具工研院這邊都有設計環抱"},{"start":2622.452,"end":2623.132,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":2639.24,"end":2661.866,"text":"一天24小時7天365天全年無休啊但是我人力是有局限的所以我就可以減緩人力的需求所以不是替代人力而是補足補充我人力不足的部分在我們這個自動化跟智慧化好所以具體建議有三個也請次長回應第一個"},{"start":2662.686,"end":2690.052,"text":"參考中油跟林園高中還有剛才本席所推動各國營事業的產學專班持續的來推動本席有具體的要求在我高雄這邊你們在進行一個月內完成所有的盤點各國營事業當中還有什麼樣的產學專班的規劃的一個可能性第二個全面加速推動國營事業自動化跟智慧化請經濟部專案列管我本席這邊講的專案列管是要部長主責列管"},{"start":2692.352,"end":2717.129,"text":"召集公研院、金屬中心、施策會等相關法人於3個月內完成規劃另外也請部長於今年9月前也就是下會期間完成四大國營事業的仿製檢視國營事業自動化智慧化的現況跟未來為什麼本席要求一定要部長親自來督導部長是歷任的這個部長當中完整業界歷練"},{"start":2718.63,"end":2733.122,"text":"第二個他所從事的半導體產業是所有國內目前自動化跟智慧化最高的產業也只有他親自督導在四大國營事業當中帶頭才有可能讓相關的中下游一併的啟動"},{"start":2734.443,"end":2752.119,"text":"我整個包括我的中小企業相關的產業傳統產業的自動化跟智慧化我就能夠有一個一個這個全面提升的可行性所以我才要求部長要親自的訪視而且親自的重案列管那這個列管當中我是要求三個月完成規劃案"},{"start":2753.2,"end":2756.041,"text":"包括逐年編列的預算你要達成什麼目標你什麼時候完成什麼樣的成果這是我第二個建議第三個基於就業公平及經驗傳承的原則我講清楚基於就業公平跟經驗傳承評估回聘退休人員因為你們現在人力虛財若渴"},{"start":2774.588,"end":2787.375,"text":"你要工業自動化跟智慧化還是需要一些時間但是你現在就是缺人所以我說一定要就業公平我們不是要去站年輕人主導年輕人上來升遷但是在這個過渡當中我能夠在就業公平跟經驗傳承的機制評估回評退休人員帶領新進人員迅速上手"},{"start":2799.583,"end":2817.98,"text":"減緩人力不足的壓力以經驗來提供專業機制甚至我們的這樣的回聘人員到什麼程度我們也應該要有一個適時的退場這些都是要規劃重點還是要讓我們自己公司內的新進的同仁能夠承接上來部長您回應一下這三個具體的建議"},{"start":2819.082,"end":2841.543,"text":"謝謝委員針對那個產學專班的一個指導這部分我們一定會繼續做因為這個不只是在補充人力跟地方這個合作的這一部分其實讓地方的機會更穩定這部分我們一定會做另外一個就是說國營事業自動化跟智慧化這是我們部長上來第一個要務要產業AI化那一定是以國營事業為優先那這個我跟"},{"start":2842.364,"end":2865.312,"text":"委員報告我一定親自下來下來督導市長你就懶了這個工作了我一定會專案來跟我們報告我也很高興你來懶這個工作因為你你也這個工業局上來所以也因為這個有關我們高雄整個石化公安的問題這個我們一定會努力來做那另外一個就是那個聘委那個退休這部分我們目前也有在"},{"start":2865.792,"end":2866.572,"text":"接下來我們請邱議員章偉請做詢談"},{"start":2904.269,"end":2931.545,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是請一下連次長我們再請連次長次長早還是要先恭喜您從產發署署長高升變長賜我相信您未來的工作責任應該是更相對重大次長我想請教一下您在長賜的任內您會負責主要督導哪些業務單位"},{"start":2932.731,"end":2955.976,"text":"我是負責油水、糖電還有那個還有那個能源署跟標準局所以國家的能源政策大概都是屬於您在督導屬於您在管是不是這樣那我就直接切入主題來我第一個想要請教可能台電王總經理也在來這個我們一直在講台電的虧損原本預計今年的虧損會到2124億"},{"start":2958.897,"end":2987.322,"text":"那4月份我們調降電價之後你們台電的預估今年會多收了600億元對不對一直到年底會多收600億元再加上行政院的撥補1000億所以你的整個虧損會降到500億那台電你們現在也公布就是說燃料有下降中油已經調降了所謂的天然氣的這個採購的價格你們購買的成本也下降所以你們預估今年可以損益兩坪是這樣嗎"},{"start":2990.143,"end":3014.781,"text":"政府如果可以撥補一千億的話政府撥補一千億你們是可以損益兩平你們的預估今年是可以損益兩平那這個就會我下一個問題就要請教了你們在講說今年會損益兩平的同時其實你們前幾天公布了一個就是說你現在我們要求有一些比如說農漁業社福團體學校或者是地區醫院"},{"start":3015.802,"end":3030.084,"text":"要求希望電價動漲這件事情可是呢台電說你們不會再去做這一些優惠的處理回歸給各單位自行去編列預算嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":3031.753,"end":3050.518,"text":"這個部分是兩個層次一個是台電對民眾的這個部分或者是一些弱勢農業會等等這個部分這個部分是不會改變的台電對他們的店家是不會改變而只是說台電在這方面的需要撥補的這部分我們是跟機關之間做處理而已"},{"start":3051.64,"end":3061.696,"text":"總經理我覺得你還是要說明清楚因為我看到的新聞稿跟看到了你們的那個標題實在是不清楚你說對個人的部分比如說我現在直接舉例農漁業社福團體"},{"start":3064.767,"end":3065.748,"text":"好這邊補充一下齁就是"},{"start":3084.906,"end":3085.747,"text":"那各目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3109.769,"end":3136.349,"text":"總經理你確定他們今年有編列這樣的預算嗎?還是說你這整個計畫是從明年才開始計算?因為現在大概各部會已經準備在編列明年的預算了嘛所以你們現在發這個文的意思你們在中央在行政院裡頭有沒有經過跨部會的整合協調然後各機關是不是確定從明年開始他們就會去編列所謂的減少優惠的這樣的一個預算編列?"},{"start":3138.041,"end":3151.29,"text":"是的 這個部分是在中央有曾經協調過有這樣的一個決議所以我們是根據這個決議發文給各世界目的所以各個機關都知道比如說教育部也知道是的"},{"start":3152.145,"end":3152.345,"text":"是的"},{"start":3175.444,"end":3201.648,"text":"第二未來的這一些補助由各機關來自行編列預算我覺得這兩個重點其實前面只是前面那個重點啦就你要讓他們知道說他們的電價還是動漲不會因此而受到影響我覺得這個是一個很重要的關鍵前提否則現在新聞就寫說台電取消所有的這個優惠措施那你會造成大家的恐慌我覺得這件事情可能"},{"start":3202.768,"end":3226.075,"text":"這個次長或者是台電你們還要必須要在對外說明更清楚好我們在對外說明再強化這一塊好來接下來我其實要講就是說電費這件事情我現在看到有一個民間的企業就是統一超商他們在6月21號開始推動所謂的凌晨3點到6點限時關燈的這樣的一個政策預估一年可以節省96萬度的電"},{"start":3228.64,"end":3234.151,"text":"這個我覺得還是一個蠻不錯的一個政策方向請問一下經濟部有沒有"},{"start":3235.393,"end":3261.058,"text":"有沒有這樣的意思比如說更加大幅的去推廣不必要的用電或者是說真的我們應該要大幅的鼓勵大家去採用節能設施節電設施我一直在想我們立法院的這個燈我們立法院的冷氣到底有沒有節電設施比如說我們現在會議在進行可是我們的門是一直開著外面30幾度那那個整個冷氣的運轉"},{"start":3263.559,"end":3291.268,"text":"行政院的所有的行政機關到底有沒有裝置節能設施這些經濟部到底有沒有去盤點當然郭智慧部長講的這個東西是被斷章取義擷取一句話但是他重要的目的其實就是在告訴大家節能的重要性所以市長您說你督導這些油水、糖電、能源這件事情其實是大家很關注的"},{"start":3292.128,"end":3307.473,"text":"到底你們經濟部有沒有去大肆的我簡單問啦行政單位有沒有有沒有去做比如說變頻冷氣的改設燈具等等這一些節電的設施你們到底做了多少這個針對那個政府機關喔不管在電燈或是冷氣這一塊"},{"start":3312.176,"end":3328.404,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3329.644,"end":3342.026,"text":"我們部長目前也在進行一個比較大的就是要推動X口這樣的一個動作那X口我們只要會把台電把那個後段班節能比較後段班的我們撈出來然後針對後段班節能比較不好的我們會灑下去整個全部灑下去我們有服務團來協助這些節能比較績效不好的我們來進行他協助他做節能另外在家電的補助部分其實這個節能我們都是"},{"start":3358.015,"end":3385.005,"text":"你要補助的話你買的這個家電一定是要再節能多少以上的我們才做補助這個我們都知道啦我現在講的就是說節電除電新的一個能源概念其實這個我們已經談很久了那你如何讓社會大眾能夠去接受到一個這樣的一個新的能源轉變新的能源政策比如說這兩天的太陽光"},{"start":3386.032,"end":3413.848,"text":"來臨。"},{"start":3414.528,"end":3415.228,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答"},{"start":3440.796,"end":3443.317,"text":"現在我在執行的同時對面的行政院門口正有17個團體"},{"start":3470.427,"end":3494.047,"text":"在陳前抗議北中南都有喔他們在抗議什麼聯合反對賣電賣了電廠嚴厲我先練一段他們的宣言這團隊包括六千污染傷害聯合球場自救會雲林前海養殖協會南部反空污大聯盟台灣健康空氣行動聯盟17個團隊他們說賣了阿"},{"start":3498.789,"end":3498.809,"text":"總經理"},{"start":3525.734,"end":3537.982,"text":"我問一下,你知道全台灣第二大的污染源是哪裡?全台灣喔?第二大的污染源?不要聊,這邊的電廠蠻多的結果你五月應該一號機要關起來啊你進行這個污染源又繼續了"},{"start":3546.667,"end":3575.236,"text":"我們再看下一張好不好,來,你再看一張環境部委公布了一個資料,他說我們的碳排不只沒有降,反而是增加的一個嚴重問題就是我們的煤還繼續在燒,他在說我們國家2020年總溫室的氣體排放量不只沒有達到2020年的2%管制的目標,裡面最重要是二百多個,溫室氣體的最大中心是二氧化碳"},{"start":3576.291,"end":3601.162,"text":"排放量比2005年不只沒有降欸還增加了2.55%全台灣第二大污染源你繼續讓他繼續本來要停的5月底要停你不停你要繼續讓他燒然後連環境部都要提醒你了二氧化碳要繼續這樣排放下去嗎我們看下一張來我問你整個問題現在在對面的行政院的團體要求一個東西"},{"start":3605.168,"end":3615.546,"text":"你的黑箱合約合約能不能公布你現在叫賣寮電廠的合約能不能公布給大家看"},{"start":3617.469,"end":3645.517,"text":"跟委員報告齁其實整個商業行為必須要談誠信問題啦齁那整個合約的穩定性跟可預見性也必須要維持齁所以我這個合約是25年的合約那這25年的合約裡面這個電廠建置的那個固定成本必須要能夠讓他回收所以這個部分我們必須要照這個合約去做你白天去買電你去跟賣掉電廠買電用的是我們人民的納稅錢嘛你是國營事業嘛這本來就要公開嘛對不對"},{"start":3647.33,"end":3657.643,"text":"對人民負責啊所以行立法院才會這樣要求你民脂民膏本來就是要公開嘛但是又關到人民的健康啊全民這麼關注啊這個合約為什麼不能公開"},{"start":3658.868,"end":3675.969,"text":"可以公開嗎?這合約沒有,這合約有什麼見不得人的地方?有嗎?有任何見不得人的地方嗎?沒有見不得人的地方。所以讓公開唄?我們回去研究一下好不好?就這法的部分我們研究一下。不是啊,你有什麼見不得人的地方為什麼不能公開?你進行的就是5年對不對?你現在兇兇,你又演年華。"},{"start":3679.397,"end":3697.699,"text":"到底怎麼定的?這裡面大家很清楚了嘛你時間就是到5月底1號機就在停啊那你記憶什麼理由?你現在講的理由就是說可能你的那個之前有些地方那個還沒有發電完成對不對?可是你合約裡面看的時間點就是5月底啊1號機在停啊那你該停的不停"},{"start":3698.78,"end":3728.035,"text":"那你又不把合約公布啊人民就抗議啊是不是這樣因為這個是2015年的時候齁主管機關有做一個分媒深媒減量28個22%的這個部分啊這個部分牽涉到他麥寮電廠他的固定投資成本回收的這個部分所以我們在新的合約這一年半目的就是讓他把他所以你看到的是麥寮的問題有沒有看到人民的問題你繼續燒剛我剛剛可以看的是什麼第二大污染源"},{"start":3729.393,"end":3744.115,"text":"連環境部都在提醒你了犧牲的是人民的健康跟生命喔兩權之間到底是人民比較重要還是賣寮電廠比較重要你可能要再想一下第一個我再問你所以你當時可以怎麼看定你合約能夠攤出來給全民全民看"},{"start":3744.554,"end":3771.245,"text":"我們盡快回去研究以後再回覆你下午下班前給我答覆好不好現在人民跟團體還在那邊曬著大太陽在等你的答案好不好今天下班前我這樣進行好不好你不是回去研究嗎5點之前給我可以公開吧我們回去研究我這樣進行你要給我答覆OK第1個現在婚姻官他不是沒有通過燃煤的許可證明嗎"},{"start":3772.375,"end":3793.162,"text":"他還沒通過 完整會都還沒通過 你怎麼可以就是延長合約呢 這沒有違法 你有辦法運作嗎這個部分完全在 必須在合法的狀況之下才 你就不合法了 你委員這個合法 是不是總經理 完整會不給你這個 不知道免許可證明 你怎麼可以去簽一個延長一年半 這違法欸 這台電是不是違法 欸經濟部"},{"start":3798.922,"end":3824.678,"text":"市長沒有,台電不會違法做這個事沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":3825.373,"end":3828.918,"text":"還沒違法還沒違法你就是違反這一條啊你就是違反這一條啊你就是違反這一條啊"},{"start":3842.432,"end":3845.894,"text":"是現在還不是合法的合約嗎?應該是說他這個生美許可他必須自己去拿到"},{"start":3869.464,"end":3874.99,"text":"所以賣寮電廠不要說未來或者是一年半他一輩子都沒有拿到婚姻關的這個燃煤許可證這個合約就無效了他不能燒喔是不是這樣"},{"start":3890.489,"end":3893.49,"text":"這是我們國家政策啊!市府一定會怕喔!總經理應該都知道啊!我們的國家的政策"},{"start":3916.417,"end":3945.313,"text":"就是要減少煤對不對?要轉型對不對?結果你去做了一個繼續燒煤的而且這麼嚴重的一個污染報告委員整體的煤的用量是一直在持續下降的喔持續下降啊今天這邊加一點沒關係喔所以賣了這邊增加沒有關係嗎?這不是矛盾嗎?整體是下降的齁整體下降我可以同意你整體下降那你為什麼那邊突然要高起來?這經濟不就又高起來嗎?"},{"start":3946.428,"end":3968.007,"text":"好不好?再想一想我上個禮拜站在這個位置我問了郭部長我一直在講你不省電阿對不對?你搶到自己沒有缺電阿你又打自己的嘴巴這是你的政策欸國家的政策也是經濟部也是台電的政策你的燃煤燒煤是要減少的你自己打嘴巴你才讓賣料可以再增加"},{"start":3969.525,"end":3998.515,"text":"所以我明確的要求了郭部長你若確定你自欺滿滿一直在講你沒有缺電你就不要去危害人民的健康危害人民的安全啊生命啊所以我就要求你說你若我沒有缺電的話你慢點去把他停掉喔我聽你不是這樣說他說回去好好看一下電這是兩件事啦因為我們必須讓合約執行是必須是穩定跟可預見性否則其他的IPP我採購的時候會有他們一些擔心說未來他的25年合約是不是會有問題那合約裡面有什麼重要的事情"},{"start":4000.276,"end":4025.693,"text":"我剛剛就在提醒你合約裡面你看到的到底是賣寮的利益還是人民的利益人民這邊是健康跟安全哪一個重哪一個輕總經理跟經濟部次長還有經濟部要好好想這個問題好不好這是第一個問題那現在更嚴重什麼你一直在講合約合約你看到的是說這個以前沒有發電量還沒有發完你要讓他發完一般的人民看到是什麼你合約時間就這麼久啊"},{"start":4028.445,"end":4036.885,"text":"裡面有發生了某些變動或者你說可能是憲政或人民說你不要燒那麼多煤你某些額度沒有達到可是最重要的是什麼?那合約裡面最重要的點是什麼?"},{"start":4038.032,"end":4039.373,"text":"我再重複上個禮拜講的話"},{"start":4062.301,"end":4089.639,"text":"我也問了郭部長你不要自己有衝突了你們自己在強調沒有缺電結果你又要去燒煤要去影響到傷害到人民的健康安全這是很大的問題好不好再想一下如果真的不缺電趕快去停下來第一個剛剛講的他本來縣政府就沒有合法給他燃煤的許可證他根本就沒辦法動啊這是一個所以這個合約目前看起來還不見得可以執行對不對第二天你今天下班進行五點進行"},{"start":4091.51,"end":4091.53,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":4121.124,"end":4133.657,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員請做詢談主席我想請這個連次長我們再請連次長"},{"start":4140.017,"end":4164.971,"text":"市長這個和珊電力缺口不用擔心我們都有考慮進去就是這個是6月12號本席在經濟委員會質詢的時候你們部長所回答的當時部長說和珊停機的7%發電缺口未來預估就是加上AI每年3%用電成長的缺口都不用擔心真的不用擔心嗎你告訴我"},{"start":4165.95,"end":4174.877,"text":"跟委員報告河山一號機如果除以的話它差不多有95萬千瓦那7月的話會有豐德3號加入有110萬9到時候會有大潭9號跟7號還有興達一號機上來那這個加起來有300萬總共有440幾萬那我先繼續問一下市長請問一下河山廠的一號機二號機總裝置容量是多少"},{"start":4192.517,"end":4193.539,"text":"和三場一號機跟二號機都是95萬"},{"start":4196.613,"end":4200.254,"text":"所以加起來加起來是1902MW所以過去這段期間來本席在問經濟部和安會要不要考慮和三廠研議本席也多次以國外為例國外的核電廠使用週期都是60年以上是常態但你們一直說不考慮一直說有準備次長你剛剛告訴我的說"},{"start":4224.523,"end":4226.184,"text":"這個1900MW的缺口你們已經準備了但是你們準備的這幾個如果都能夠供應上的話為什麼還要賣了電廠"},{"start":4239.307,"end":4247.689,"text":"跟委員報告河山廠的在7月27日下來之後我們是有豐德3號機會上來所以那個量是可以足夠cover的那為什麼還要賣電呢我覺得你們這些都是言不由衷敷衍的話我來幫你們說因為麥寮電廠的總發電量是多少123機各發電600MW總共1800MW是不是剛好cover你"},{"start":4268.135,"end":4268.195,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":4289.292,"end":4295.794,"text":"河山的部分只有1號機下來,所以是950...那2號機明年5月也要下來啦那我們還有另外的機組會上來哪什麼機組會上來我們先來看看,讓全國人民看一下拿賣電抵河山,台電要多花多少錢就是依照台電公佈4月的發電成本河南每一度電是1.12元"},{"start":4315.561,"end":4324.186,"text":"五十五億度電只要六十一點六億元但是如果用麥寮發電麥寮燃煤發電的話立刻暴增到一百六十八點三億增加了一百零七億元你有沒有看 有看嗎這是你最新四月的"},{"start":4337.922,"end":4353.358,"text":"對,報告委員最主要是因為河山下去是因為法規的規定我也想聽聽次長講,次長你知道這件事情除了多花107億之外還要犧牲雲林縣人的健康請問你清不清楚這個影響有多大我跟委員報告"},{"start":4358.479,"end":4359.02,"text":"沒有沒有沒有沒有最後一次"},{"start":4374.451,"end":4379.555,"text":"你們一直告訴我說這個河山停機跟麥寮延長發電是因為什麼都無關都是因為合約的問題但是現在其實賣電給燃氣的這個計畫已經在進行了到底台電有沒有計畫跟這個這個賣電來購買天然氣的發電呢"},{"start":4399.449,"end":4399.77,"text":"現在麥寮天然氣的接收站環評都已經過了"},{"start":4411.147,"end":4415.371,"text":"我們基本上大家都是反對火力發電的你不能夠說你這個用電缺口你核電的用電缺口要用火力發電拼命燒用我們雲林彰化這些百姓的肺來發電這是完全不合理的"},{"start":4430.724,"end":4433.785,"text":"而且麥寮電廠當時也有對雲林縣人承諾說2025就不再燒煤你們應該好好研議怎麼樣加速讓核酸不用退役繼續研議而不是犧牲雲林人的健康而且呢"},{"start":4448.072,"end":4460.984,"text":"中規一句話中規一句話這都是錯誤的能源政策所造成的放著一度電一塊的核能不要用去買昂貴的天然氣去用煤炭來發電市長我也知道你很無奈啊"},{"start":4465.12,"end":4468.243,"text":"你也什麼都做不了不要說你了我相信連部長都做不了主因為整個國家的能源政策都被民進黨的意識形態所綁架說真話的人受到批評還要被要求說不要說話我們的國發會主委我們的經濟部長上任之初整個社會都期待他們能夠扭轉內閣對核能的偏見結果呢"},{"start":4492.085,"end":4506.781,"text":"現在什麼都不敢說了當初說真話的人被民進黨批評變成被民進黨批評的對象國家的能源政策至此何其可悲受害的是國家受害的是全體人民啊你們同不同意"},{"start":4509.364,"end":4516.169,"text":"報告委員 能源的政策的選擇是各個都有它的優點跟缺點 核能部分的安全你台電現在累積虧損多少錢你告訴我啊你現在台電今年會不會累積虧損 是不是有沒有5000億的可能"},{"start":4528.359,"end":4532.462,"text":"你現在累積3800億3850億你現在告訴我說有什麼優缺點你知道3年來政府已經撥補了你們4000億你還累積3850億你告訴我什麼優缺點法律的問題要先解決所以所以我們要想辦法去解決而不是把這些把賣店拿來補充啊拿來填補這個缺口啊你現在告訴我合約合約"},{"start":4556.51,"end":4557.231,"text":"我告訴你你好好面對你這些虧損之後要怎麼辦謝謝"},{"start":4585.155,"end":4592.279,"text":"嚴肅的議題理性的討論謝謝我們接下來請鄭正前委員請做詢談"},{"start":4600.706,"end":4619.467,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下我們林次長還有我們中油的李董事長我們請以上兩位台電的王總經理然後台塘的楊董事長然後台水的李董事長台水李董事長請"},{"start":4621.601,"end":4646.352,"text":"以上五位請就質詢台謝謝因為今天那個早有特別安排了經濟部面對國營事業未來10年能力嚴重斷層之因應作為所以就是我們四大國營事業的董事長和總經理都在現場所以我針對這部分的時候我想特別關心因為我看到我們整個"},{"start":4649.634,"end":4664.525,"text":"經濟部提出來報告的時候我發現整體來說的時候台電這邊表示說他們113年起退休人數逐漸減緩以無落差過大之斷層所以台電就表示好像沒有什麼人力的一個問題"},{"start":4665.746,"end":4693.339,"text":"那中油這邊也表示111年期退休人數趨緩已無明顯之斷層中油也沒有問題然後台糖這邊的時候表示114年期可逐漸脫離退休高峰期員工年資年齡偏高的情況都明顯獲得改善人力斷層壓力也逐年減輕台糖也沒有問題那台水這邊也表示近年來退休潮已有所趨緩就四大國營事業都表示這個人力沒有問題那我就感覺感覺很像我們今天這個經濟委員會"},{"start":4695.18,"end":4706.415,"text":"安排這個經濟部面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層的因應作為好像是一個多餘的一個報告可是我想請教一下次長就是我們來看一下"},{"start":4708.876,"end":4732.791,"text":"這幾年的一個退休人數屢創新高那我這邊就統計到111年那針對這個部分就是我想問就是四大國營事業公司我想問111年我這邊數字只有到111年我想問112年中游自願退休的人數有多少有多少借齡退休離職人數有多少"},{"start":4737.648,"end":4761.362,"text":"請給我具體的數字好不好然後臺電也請準備然後臺糖臺水都請準備志願退休人數去年志願退休人數借齡退休人數還有離職人數跟委員報告那事實上中油公司去年去年整個退休跟離職人數總共是731位"},{"start":4764.224,"end":4764.244,"text":"臺電這邊勒"},{"start":4793.139,"end":4807.482,"text":"臺電數字請給我,自願退休有多少人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是954人臺電戒退的是95"},{"start":4822.244,"end":4822.904,"text":"臺堂這邊請給我具體數字"},{"start":4851.058,"end":4877.065,"text":"台塘的部分退休人數是162人那離職人數是40人加起來是202162你們可不可以分成自願退休跟借零退休?通常都是借零退休的台塘自願退休少對不對?那台水這邊請給我數字跟委員報告112年台水公司的退休人數是202人"},{"start":4879.773,"end":4896.464,"text":"那志願退休是57人 戒退是145人OK志願退休多少人志願退休57人57人嘛OK然後志願戒停退休是145145離職人數離職人數是143人143人喔OK好謝謝那四位董事長總經理為什麼要特別問這個問題"},{"start":4906.611,"end":4930.807,"text":"是因為我看到所有的這個部分我們看到整個借鈴退休的數字在111年當中的時候只有29.4%是借鈴退休表示有超過7成的人都是自願退休跟你們剛剛給我報的數字有一點點落差那每一年的情況都會改變我可以理解可是我為什麼要特別問這個事情因為"},{"start":4932.208,"end":4944.674,"text":"市長我想問一下我們今年四大國營公司的時候準備要招考多少人中游1100人不是我說今年準備要招考多少人中游1100"},{"start":4954.895,"end":4963.282,"text":"要招考1100人我看到在6月12日經濟部上網公告經濟部所屬事業單位113人招考總共只有826人欸中研就1100這是什麼狀態那個是職員職員的部分嘛你那部分包括臨時人員嗎包括技術人員"},{"start":4981.54,"end":5006.178,"text":"那這個部分至少你到時候你整合所有的數字給我一下我們整合一個數字給委員長因為我想看一下我們四大國營公司的人力情況到底是如何因為我這邊看到一個情況就是我們今年要招考826名那目前還在找那我看到去年的數字的時候我們錄取率大概是10%左右而已可是我為什麼會特別要問自願退休跟"},{"start":5007.398,"end":5008.139,"text":"所以我今天這邊請四位董事長總經理這邊上來的時候"},{"start":5036.781,"end":5049.255,"text":"就特別提到我們國營事業如何留才的問題如何留才那如何留才這邊的時候呢我們看到的情況有點擔心像台水之前找了50個退休的人進來當顧問為什麼因為第一線的技術人員不夠"},{"start":5053.9,"end":5076.294,"text":"你人找進來是不是技術人員能夠滿足第一線的要求看起來是有一些問題的那我們看到中油這體系當中在煉油廠當中的時候很多第一線的員工公眾環境並不是那麼好所以流動性高那我們希望國營事業有一個相當的穩定性所以本席在這邊的時候也特別希望次長這邊能夠"},{"start":5079.396,"end":5092.004,"text":"來特別針對國營事業單位在數位化的能力能夠有所提高因為四大國營事業單位我們都認為他應該是有競爭力的可是我們看到了目前"},{"start":5093.939,"end":5112.952,"text":"就是民間對於整個亞太行銷數位轉型聯盟協會他針對整個台灣各個產業跟政府部門的時候我們看到了國營事業單位政府部門我這邊我先不講可是國營事業單位在說的數位轉型當中能力是最差的"},{"start":5114.172,"end":5131.918,"text":"所以現在台灣不斷在強調半導體跟AI的情況我希望國營事業單位能夠在這個腳步上面能夠跟上透過數位化、自動化跟AI化的一個狀態能夠讓我們的國營事業單位更具競爭力然後有更多的福利能夠給"},{"start":5134.079,"end":5134.899,"text":"好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":5157.025,"end":5179.185,"text":"我們也請國營會針對四大國營事業單位因為今天的主題本席特別要聽取他們四大的困難以及人力的缺口到底目前人力是夠不夠那麼每一年退休包括建林退休以及這個志願離職的當然趕快請他們做一個"},{"start":5181.747,"end":5182.908,"text":"鄭天才委員請作詢答"},{"start":5209.529,"end":5231.119,"text":"主席會委員有請次長我們再請連次長這個恭喜你這個在經濟部的首署的相關的工業局標檢局還有什麼國產發署都待過這個很適合"},{"start":5236.828,"end":5238.67,"text":"當任常務次長"},{"start":5261.277,"end":5264.678,"text":"國營事業延遲合理化管理作業規定多有一個這樣的一個機制希望能夠朝這個方向去"},{"start":5290.486,"end":5292.949,"text":"經濟部首署4月103至112年曾面臨人力斷層的危機有三點分析"},{"start":5313.086,"end":5316.354,"text":"那其中這個第二點60歲至65歲有一個原因當然要看這個"},{"start":5322.349,"end":5343.19,"text":"台電、台水、台糖每個不太一樣的工作環境像台電它常常會爬上爬下還要上山所以這個部分也會有所不同但是這個也是會面臨我們未來"},{"start":5344.4,"end":5367.895,"text":"未來還面臨這個少子女化的很多的問題所以這個部分都是要去怎麼樣去因應都要去多多的去看那我們看這個台電中友台糖台水這個年齡各年齡分布的情形來看的話"},{"start":5369.295,"end":5392.987,"text":"我們就像我剛剛講的61到65歲台電就比例就相對的比較低了所以他自然他就算你這個勞基法改了他一樣要退啊因為這個工作比較吃重嘛要上上下下所以各方面他會有但是如果我們從這個"},{"start":5396.223,"end":5396.844,"text":"臺電公司報告提到整個"},{"start":5424.852,"end":5432.211,"text":"面臨所謂的中高年齡解剖老化問題然後經過你們的一個整個整個"},{"start":5434.311,"end":5459.274,"text":"改善改進經濟的方案之後確實有比較好如果從台電工作性質比相對跟其他的4個商業公司的話來講基本上35歲到54歲中間人力接近5成這個部分當然因為這個是一個經驗也很重要"},{"start":5460.775,"end":5487.316,"text":"所以這個部分是一個需要各個公司都要去談的部分然後我們看你未來10年員工退休的情形你們也做了一估這個部分怎麼樣就成我剛剛講的這個年輕人怎麼樣讓他能夠進來是一個途徑很重要的途徑當然另外一個途徑這個就是我的重點了"},{"start":5488.632,"end":5502.497,"text":"另外一個途徑是原住民的禁用原住民的禁用我們看這個經濟部首屬事業機構這個新進職員原住民報考的人數我們從105年207人然後這個入企人數只有5個5位這個人數的比例很低一直到112年"},{"start":5517.693,"end":5535.808,"text":"這個新晉執言爭試原住民報考人數287人競用只有8人所以這個比例真的是很低這個需要這個要請這個我們所有的這個臺臺電這個相關臺水臺糖"},{"start":5540.45,"end":5562.617,"text":"包括各個事業機構海棠各方面都應該去我們就舉這個例子臺電臺電一直是我們原住民族一直很嚮往要去的一個國營事業但是如果我們從這個來原住民報考的人數這個105年是107人報考"},{"start":5569.57,"end":5586.883,"text":"這個入企人數只有10個這個比例真的很低這個112年383人去報告這個有成長一些些因為這幾年我一直在請我們各個國營事業的那個去"},{"start":5588.837,"end":5588.977,"text":"進行報告．"},{"start":5609.76,"end":5635.388,"text":"一年就離開了,甚至半年就離開了那何不如讓我們在那邊長期的來去做這樣的一個工作機會台水公司也是一樣這個顏族民族禁用的人數的比例真的都是非常非常的低我們看這個台糖也是一樣這個無論是職研、公研、業股"},{"start":5636.792,"end":5639.595,"text":"要請次長協助我們的各個公司來禁用原住民,可以嗎?"},{"start":5661.735,"end":5674.185,"text":"好,我再來找我們四大國營事業公司來討論一下怎麼來多多敬略我們原住民的那個同胞這樣子好,謝謝好,謝謝接下來我們請李玉玲委員請做詢答謝謝主席,請連次長我們再請連次長"},{"start":5696.957,"end":5711.134,"text":"委員好是謝謝林市長請教你的就是因為去年的4月12號大陸的商務部特別宣布了就是依據台灣對於大陸的貿易限制進行了貿易壁壘的這個調查"},{"start":5712.675,"end":5726.361,"text":"的結果就是因為2002年的1月份我們加入了世貿的組織到現在我們對大陸的部分的產品採取了單方面的限制進口的措施所以在這種情況下大陸認為沒有必要再給我們臺灣單方面的這個讓利所以他們大陸的商務部調查的結果就是我們兩岸的確實有"},{"start":5735.845,"end":5758.131,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5758.251,"end":5781.743,"text":"在這一次我們賴清德總統上任之後我們並沒有看到兩岸的破冰的這個契機所以這個ECFA在這個清單裡面所有的我們的關稅減免上會不會影響到我們未來的話會完全的這個就是所有的這個在賴清德總統這個任內可不可能就完全歸零了"},{"start":5782.643,"end":5786.605,"text":"根委員報告其實我們不做這種假設但是我們是用一個比較完整的一個分析就是說我們從去年開始在去年初的時候我們針對大陸有這樣的動作我們就把它假設說萬一它全部給我們取消的時候我們對產業我們要怎麼來協助它過過這個難關我們對產業尤其是傳產業因為大部分出口的部分的話都是屬於半導體的產品的電子零件的部分"},{"start":5811.46,"end":5838.446,"text":"我們傳統產業雖然說在這個出口上大概只有佔了2%而已但是你要怎麼樣協助他們你有什麼規劃跟委員報告其實從去年開始我們就跟像鋼鐵機械自行車紡織還有石化等等我們就一個一個為他們量身訂做什麼量身訂做我們有跟他們量身訂做說萬一這個完全取消的時候我們要怎麼去脫離紅色公務員或怎麼去脫離對大陸的依賴"},{"start":5840.186,"end":5842.629,"text":"市長其實最重要的這些產業他們自己都知道技術怎麼提升最重要的目標我們會開拓其他市場這一定的那其他市場的競爭力在哪裡就是"},{"start":5863.575,"end":5886.254,"text":"對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":5886.454,"end":5891.336,"text":"比如說好他要到泰國那到泰國那個那一要落地的那一剎那我們去幫他協助他可以在那落地的時候怎麼去讓他進到那個市場這一部分我們去做一些協定也就是說現在我們的簽署FTA的這個國家目前只有8個那你是不是就是屬於區域的或是兩國的這種簽證的話簽約的話才能夠讓他們的關稅可以減低"},{"start":5913.625,"end":5931.161,"text":"對關稅檢驗是這樣對對對對是不是這個我們也努力在做但是另外一部分是說還沒有在簽雙邊的FTA之外我們有另外一個方式來解決所以出口的關稅是非常重要你要幫他們找出路啊對是不是有有有好所以這個你必須要積極來做了因為我們有有有"},{"start":5932.142,"end":5953.234,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5953.655,"end":5963.567,"text":"接下來本席想請問的是因為現在大陸已經提出了這個ECFA的這個取消之後的話那未來的話在國際上他就會認為說我們現在的話這個"},{"start":5968.834,"end":5969.714,"text":"會不會碰到更多的阻礙呢?"},{"start":5985.202,"end":5985.842,"text":"但是現在GPTPP是會員國製的嘛"},{"start":6002.549,"end":6014.479,"text":"會員國資的話那有一個會員國不同意我們就進不去的阿是不是我不說大陸其他國家因為我們讓國際會有這個訊息認為說我們台灣有這個貿易壁壘的情形阿所以你還是要繼續努力嗎你這麼有自信你要繼續努力所以現在CPTPP的進駐的情況怎麼樣我們已經申請了那有進駐嗎"},{"start":6027.297,"end":6048.106,"text":"這個是我們目前還在努力嘛所以會員國還是有阻礙嘛還沒全部的會員國都同意嘛所以這種現象你要小心的應對好好的規劃對大陸的多市出像一些產品上可以免有這麼多的限制這樣只要大家能夠互動的話貿易壁壘的情形就會減少了"},{"start":6049.727,"end":6057.632,"text":"接下來我們想請問的就是國營事業的人力問題回到正題裡面現在國營事業跟公營的事業台電的話我們在針對這60歲到65歲因為60歲到65歲就要退休了在這5年情形或人力的缺口情形台電的大概有2613人中油有2818人還有台糖有616人"},{"start":6078.426,"end":6102.408,"text":"臺水公司就有655人這樣統計下來未來的5年我們退休的缺口人力的缺口將近有6700人6700人本席要講的就是因為人力你們沒有補足都有缺口都有人力不足情況之下現在要考我們公營事業國營事業的人又減少那這種情形上人力不足你怎麼去做呢"},{"start":6104.346,"end":6127.716,"text":"委員報告我們除了禁用那個因為我們也會聘用當地的一些約聘僱的所以這種禁用的會從原籍公籍還有約聘僱這幾個方向來禁用還有我們目前也在跟一些高職的學校鄰近的高職學校去做合作那如果他一畢業產業合作對產學合作我們四大公司都有在跟"},{"start":6128.556,"end":6129.62,"text":"這不是根本的解決問題的方式啊"},{"start":6135.885,"end":6136.665,"text":"你這個人力還是繼續有缺口啊"},{"start":6163.118,"end":6167.542,"text":"您用產學合作不是根本的方法?不是說產學合作是其中一種方式主要還是從招聘這一邊問來一年差不多有八九百位會去招聘那剛才講那個巡檢人力我們目前還是會透過一些世衛科技來做協助補助那這部分我們台電已經"},{"start":6182.034,"end":6203.486,"text":"針對那些優先順序已經在安排在做處理本席會這麼提就是因為我們人力不足你都靠其他地方來支援就從新北苗栗新竹那邊調人力來我們桃園支援現在你不足的看新北不足的人79人桃園不足有35人新竹是19人苗栗也15人都在不足的情況下調配來桃園的話"},{"start":6205.563,"end":6222.273,"text":"那現在未來你的用什麼產業學合作沒有根本解決方法那尤其是現在在招考方面現在我們國營事業跟公營的事業招考的人數也是減少了所以你的招考的人數減少之後你提高了這個這個整個這個鑑別的這個門檻讓他們都能夠進來這樣子你的數值會不會變得更低啊"},{"start":6228.635,"end":6252.727,"text":"是不是這樣子?跟委員報告齁,我們整體的用人數量一直在增加齁,就像前段時間台電大概是2萬6,然後一直增加到2萬7對,因為你的程式進步了嘛,所以用人會增加,但是招考,考來報考的人數是減少的,那你那個入取率又提高,那我們本期是擔心你未來的這個品質數值上跟你的鑑別度的話都會下降了"},{"start":6253.247,"end":6272.79,"text":"所以我們在新進員工的薪水的部分也做得比較高你薪水調高了可是你的環境有沒有改善呢?你跟民間公司的話競爭民間的人才你很難因為民間公司整個環境都有改善那你本身公營事業都沒有要改善啊你調整薪水你的薪水比得上民間公司嗎?"},{"start":6273.671,"end":6300.373,"text":"當然薪水沒辦法跟一些特別大的這個就是競爭的人力的問題但是在住宿條件方面我們都提供宿舍盡量滿足當地的整體的工作環境還是要獲得改善所以你要積極本席提醒你未來這5年你的缺口會更大所以你整體的不能靠產學了我聽到你講產學我就擔心了我們實質的技術人員人力人才才是最重要的好不好"},{"start":6302.418,"end":6315.708,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請陳庭菲委員請做詢答在楊瓊怡委員詢答結束之後我們休息3分鐘人性管理謝謝謝謝主席我們是不是請我們的次長我們再請連次長"},{"start":6337.356,"end":6362.555,"text":"市長我想有一個資料可能要請你要密切瞭解密切注意就是說我們有得到一個訊息就是最近中國聯通跟他的香港子公司一直有私下密集在接觸臺灣國際藍網通信股份有限公司"},{"start":6364.414,"end":6388.605,"text":"那這一家有限公司呢我為什麼要特別來提出來因為我們去了解他大概有兩張我們的這個電信事業登記證明還有電路出租業務特許執照這兩個非常重要因為是特許因為這個次長你"},{"start":6390.197,"end":6416.885,"text":"從我們過去的工業局然後在產發署這樣一路到現在所以你應該很清楚這兩張執照很重要吧是不是都是屬於特許喔都是特許的喔沒錯那這特許有什麼重要為什麼中國聯通還有他香港的子公司要接觸如果他被收購了嚴不嚴重"},{"start":6420.353,"end":6420.994,"text":"但是除了數位部以外"},{"start":6436.636,"end":6451.428,"text":"你們投審會如果說今天當然你要密切注意欸而且我再去吊了這一家台灣國際藍網通信股份有限公司齁"},{"start":6453.037,"end":6472.383,"text":"這裡面我們看到他的公司簡介裡面公司的嚴格是2010年就結合兩岸電信營運商建立連接淡水到福州之兩岸直達海底光覽"},{"start":6475.533,"end":6504.825,"text":"這他的嚴格裡面公司嚴格裡面就這麼寫了然後我們在整個特許執照也是給他另外我還看了他在裡面公司的優勢這他資料裡面網上都查得到的他的公司優勢中國聯通在台最佳戰略合作夥伴他大剌剌的"},{"start":6506.411,"end":6521.328,"text":"他完全也不會隱晦也沒有隱瞞喔可是在我們整個電信特許的狀態之下這危不危險危險危險"},{"start":6526.615,"end":6550.263,"text":"在整個我們的特許行業在電信特許行業當中結果這一家公司有可能是中國聯通極盡所能在接觸的然後他也非常直接在他網站當中就直接寫明了他是中國聯通在台最佳的戰略合作夥伴"},{"start":6553.667,"end":6576.181,"text":"市長 這個要小心啊 這要注意啊 要調查清楚啊 要跟我們投審會瞭解另外一個要注意的 如果他是藉著我們台灣的企業 然後藉口呢"},{"start":6577.827,"end":6606.222,"text":"有沒有可能這個一定會審查因為後面你那個資本出資的背景是什麼這個如果要進來台灣還是要經過可是他如果用台灣目前擁有的資本下去做一個收購甚至他的預算不用給那麼多嘛不用給那麼多嘛我先把你換下來先把你拿下來之後"},{"start":6607.745,"end":6634.22,"text":"再去做後續的這有可能啊?是不是有可能?今天委員已經有提醒這件事如果我們有看到這有關聯性的時候我們會去注意這樣的一個關聯性我們會去注意所以如果台灣國際藍網通信股份有限公司今天要做任何的變更我們要小心要極度小心啊好不好今天我正式把這樣的問題然後"},{"start":6637.182,"end":6657.442,"text":"跟我們的次長就教甚至把這個資訊給你因為中國聯通剛好在接觸然後他的網路上也寫得很清楚他是中國聯通在台最佳的戰略合作夥伴所以剛剛好嘛"},{"start":6659.198,"end":6683.289,"text":"所以中國是不是會用榆木混珠的包裝方式然後甚至用港資或是台資來做收購該公司的股權來獲取台灣電信的牌照來統戰台灣這個要注意啊因為他這兩張特許牌是非常重要喔"},{"start":6684.935,"end":6690.285,"text":"是非常重要喔這兩張特許牌就是中國聯通中國看中的喔"},{"start":6691.792,"end":6718.092,"text":"所以如果今天他沒有用所謂的正常的管道程序而是用榆木混珠的利用台灣國際藍網同行股份有限公司本來就已經有這兩張特許執照了再用所謂的中資台資港資不管就是用榆木混珠的方式要企圖拿到你這兩張的特許權"},{"start":6720.76,"end":6740.509,"text":"甚至去干涉到我們所有的通信系統這現在在發生了而且極度有可能已經在進行當中了所以拜託次長要跟我們的投審會甚至因為如果用我們的這個台灣的資本"},{"start":6743.902,"end":6759.179,"text":"投診會看不到嗎?因為今天我剛才已經說今天委員已經提醒這件事情那因為他如果說他背後會有一些故事或是一些相關的那我們就用這種關聯性來注意這件事情"},{"start":6760.495,"end":6788.892,"text":"一定要密切注意因為他這兩張的特許牌是非常非常重要的而且我再一次強調中國也就是看中了這兩張這兩張現在要拿很困難啦不這麼簡單啦他就是看中了這兩張看中了這兩張之後這一家公司也不會演的在他的網站當中說他就是中國聯通的最佳戰略夥伴"},{"start":6790.519,"end":6819.048,"text":"這麼清楚的所以拜託我們的次長請我們的投審會要密切我們會請投審會密切注意這件事情然後我們希望在未來國營事業的部分你在招攬我們所有的一些人才的部分還有我們要如何招聘要如何規劃要如何讓我們在用人費的部分要怎麼能夠恰到好處"},{"start":6820.697,"end":6822.178,"text":"國營事業要帶上來國營事業要帶上來沒有人才"},{"start":6837.059,"end":6837.379,"text":"請楊瓊英召委諮詢"},{"start":6872.969,"end":6900.908,"text":"謝謝主席首先請連次長跟國營會請國營會謝謝次長好我想首先請國營會來說明我們四大公司台水、台糖、台電、中油目前我們的人員各多少以及我們預計要退休的人員有多少"},{"start":6902.466,"end":6902.747,"text":"這裏,這份就有了。"},{"start":6912.621,"end":6937.032,"text":"跟委員報告好我們現在台電公司是到目前為止是兩萬九千三百九十五人然後中油公司是一萬六千八百四十四人台南公司是三千兩百零九人台水公司是五千七百七十九人預計不管是自用或者是建立退休這個是現在員工的總人數對那你預估到今年你會減少多少人"},{"start":6938.533,"end":6939.914,"text":"主席這個時間要扣掉剛剛已經從頭到現在數字還搞不清楚"},{"start":6959.918,"end":6970.471,"text":"市長你在這裡曾董事長以前也是次長你們都是管這四大公司我們真的國營會加油如果說連這樣的數字都講不出來"},{"start":6972.841,"end":6979.026,"text":"這個是離譜至極請說明整個會議今年會退休是2640人我們預計可以進多少我們去年招考的人數去年招考人數今年會進來的那也是差不多就是2000多人差不多這個數字我們請四大公司的負責人請上"},{"start":7005.003,"end":7021.573,"text":"四大公司我相信大家都知道你們的辛苦今天之所以排定這個議程也就是把問題提出我們到底要怎麼樣充足我們的人力而且穩定軍心因為現在全球都在搶人才"},{"start":7022.193,"end":7041.544,"text":"國營會"},{"start":7042.447,"end":7055.508,"text":"對,我們大概應該是這樣因為我們現在台中的資料還沒有出來了大概跟委員報告就是假設像今年預定退休2640人當中大概借零退休的大概一半"},{"start":7057.017,"end":7082.471,"text":"那你說的是差一層多但是大家都認定國營事業單位是最榮耀的單位為什麼這個自願退休的近占一半左右原因是什麼好我們姑且待會再做討論我們把問題提出之後坊間也有說因為我要申請我要申請一個電表我至少要規劃三個月幾個月"},{"start":7083.672,"end":7083.792,"text":"來 請教台電"},{"start":7109.035,"end":7123.188,"text":"有沒有這個問題?人力不足以及在基層因為經驗斷層衝擊導致這個原因各位報告就是說這些相關的工作除了台電自己本身做也有一些委外"},{"start":7124.409,"end":7137.432,"text":"那應該要這樣講就是整體來講臺電剛剛本席所提問的是不是我們的原因之一那個加接電表裝電表簡單主要是前來一個線會比較請針對問題回答我們今天是要提出問題解決問題這麼長的時間可能有零星的個案"},{"start":7147.196,"end":7163.102,"text":"可能有,所以還是有。接下來其他的有沒有這個問題?台水有沒有這個問題?水公司目前是新裝工程的設計,現在我們人力都沒有什麼問題。因為這個技術上他們進來應該大概學習了3到6個月就應該可以上手。"},{"start":7170.205,"end":7194.364,"text":"有新進人員大概半年內可以學習跟得上那本席在這邊跟國營會以及次長在這裡喔也就是這一些的人員我們退休之後新進補進來但是留人才才是重點早期我們有討論國營事業單位如果委外的太多你自己沒有訓練你的基本功那"},{"start":7195.124,"end":7218.319,"text":"當然你會有斷層所以我仍舊這個原則也就是希望我們四大公司我知道在最基層是最辛苦的你們一定要想辦法去留人才出來那我也請你們四大公司將你們預計要怎麼樣留人才讓我們的人才可以充足穩定請素面資料給本席你們請回座接下來我要談論電的問題請做其他請回"},{"start":7222.902,"end":7229.451,"text":"市長跟店請留住本期要請教我聽到了台電要取消動漲"},{"start":7231.308,"end":7254.042,"text":"因為從蔡英文總統的時代我們將學校、農娛、社福甚至去年就擴大到這些的項目那據聞台電要宣布要取消是為了說我們的虧損太多如果取消這些我們可以節省42億對外這樣子的訊息是正確的嗎?"},{"start":7255.103,"end":7255.684,"text":"委員講的那個不完全對啦請問"},{"start":7270.34,"end":7284.921,"text":"台電要取消對農娛學校社福團體的電費動長改由各部會自行決定是否要編列預算來補貼 台電說可以省下台電42億 是不是"},{"start":7287.564,"end":7289.787,"text":"台電目前是要取消這些動漲是不是?"},{"start":7307.501,"end":7324.735,"text":"是由機關來編預算請問來享受這一些優惠的電價我請教連次長次長請教這是政策性的問題留台電來回答也不是當那由次長你來回答他不是取消他是說還是維持那個電價"},{"start":7328.558,"end":7331.401,"text":"那請問次長您是經濟部長您正在就是說先取消動長然後再由各相關所屬部門去編列預算來補足動長的那個預算是不是這樣子"},{"start":7354.763,"end":7357.827,"text":"會不會?教育部會編嗎?"},{"start":7372.099,"end":7391.93,"text":"我們聽不到訊息欸我們希望要公開透明教育部會編嗎因為我告訴次長苦不能苦孩子欸這是蔡英文總統任內以及去年的時候所擴及的包括社府請問內政部會編嗎教育部會編嗎教育部長在教育委員會那邊已經有說他會去編他會去編喔內政部會不會編"},{"start":7401.194,"end":7428.172,"text":"你們既然是行政院的指示那所以本期要請教因為再苦也不能苦孩子我想你認同這一句話吧再苦不能苦孩子你點頭你也認同喔這個叫市長習慣喔這個曾董事長也點頭再苦不能苦孩子所以你這個政策下去要由各部會去編我們要看現在正在編列明年度的預算會不會編足"},{"start":7430.894,"end":7445.928,"text":"我可以這麼解讀嗎?動長之後取消動長之後由各部會去編都會編足這個額度是不是如此?因為只有在行政院有去做協調有共識這一部分我們會在行政院"},{"start":7446.769,"end":7451.133,"text":"這邊我們會再來跟各部會再來督促這樣請行這邊來督促因為教育部已經剛剛在教育委員會那邊已經說他會編了我想其他部會因為既然是在行政院那邊協調出來的大家來教訓教訓"},{"start":7462.526,"end":7483.417,"text":"所以市長也不需要我們台電一直背黑鍋嗎 對不對所以我一句話再苦不能苦孩子再苦不能苦弱勢的社團 對不對這大家的對這個共識所以我也希望這個政策我要請問行政院這樣拍本定案到底是台電決定行政院決定還是總統決定誰決定那這是在行政院開會決定的"},{"start":7489.728,"end":7503.292,"text":"誰拍板定案的?因為這是蔡英文總統當時任內所做的決定那現在賴總統我們現在卓院長拍板定案誰提議啊?誰提議?是誰提議?經濟部提議嗎?台電提議嗎?誰提議的?大家要知道誰提議的請告訴我誰提議?"},{"start":7519.448,"end":7523.232,"text":"提議是台電 經過行政院的跨部會決定 是不是要打臉蔡英文總統 是不是啊 因為他的政策你取消嘛 那我們不管你怎麼做 本席這當然是取消 動長取消"},{"start":7540.732,"end":7561,"text":"改一個方式由各部會去編組所以我們要追請聽本席說所以我要追到底各部會會不會執行大委這個我們要追因為我要再次說明再苦也不能苦孩子再苦也不能苦弱勢團體這個認同吧市長這個認同喔"},{"start":7566.256,"end":7582.727,"text":"對認同好最後一個議題我給你功課你來回答我要重申一下這個是那一些若是團體或是社會團體這個是沒有取消的齁我說它的電價又會是沒有取消的喔只是說要來請說明一下"},{"start":7583.647,"end":7593.715,"text":"沒有取消棟長對 他還是棟長齁但是那一些增加出來的本來是由台電吸收那現在只是你現在叫內政部去編列嘛對對對對那你要叫好喔出錢的方式是換了另外一個方式而已各部會回歸各部會是不是對對對好 那各部會我們就看他有沒有編"},{"start":7605.304,"end":7619.425,"text":"再苦不能苦孩子再苦不能苦弱勢團體我相信這個沒有政治話術大家全民一定都支持對不對最後一個議題我功課給你夏季的時候呢保證夏季倍容量"},{"start":7620.126,"end":7647.063,"text":"不低於10%甚至7%517呢需量反映因為需要所以你買電買了一度12塊國部長在這邊都有回答所以我要請問因為夏季電量會增加那你們預估預估在夏季的時候會不會因為缺電所以你的備載容量不到你所說的10%再買12度的電會不會如此做"},{"start":7649.436,"end":7653.861,"text":"來 台電董事長會不會如此做我們現在的準備就是要達到葉建峰7%這是我們在做的準備那所有的準備都是因為那個機組能夠正常運轉"},{"start":7664.594,"end":7667.957,"text":"那如果有任何的狀況我們當然就會依照我們的調度的規則來做好 照預計規則你們現在有的一度12塊再下跌仍舊有可能委員你剛才所說的虛量反應他有很多種 我也跟您多次做過說明大家都內行的外公幾分十塊你有必要可以再增"},{"start":7685.851,"end":7705.762,"text":"平均價格沒有到這一個水準當然你不要再給我雅雯爵士說數字的問題最高就可以買到12塊這個是國部長這個自己都說的有的我本期也不是跟你說你每一度都買到12本期問你你有可能你的機制裡頭有一度跟民間買到12塊對不對"},{"start":7707.483,"end":7708.203,"text":"所以你們不斷也要S口"},{"start":7726.414,"end":7731.996,"text":"不斷的ESCO的時候甚至有說從遠端冷氣需要的時候作為送風模式或者關閉給電費扣減節電每度10塊的回饋金這個政策據聞要7月1日開始執行是嗎?"},{"start":7743.404,"end":7747.208,"text":"這個是我們看你們的網站喔這個是節電政策你講的S口也是一個是不是節電這個是我們網站上公告業務處的新的一個對所以是不是7月份要開始如此事辦沒有錯如此事辦嘛好也就是想辦法任何的S口我要一個結論"},{"start":7761.221,"end":7777.441,"text":"如果不缺電為什麼會有這麼多的政策那沒關係我們也希望S口是全世界我們必須要推動的但是我仍舊需要有充足的電穩定的電綠能的電也就是乾淨的碳排的電對不對"},{"start":7779.096,"end":7808.419,"text":"是不是?朝這個方向對不對?那個缺不缺電跟節電沒有關係本來你電充足你還是要節電啦節電對省你的成本省口袋的錢本時也說了ESCO都是大家全球要推動的都要推動但是你反推在缺電的時候你會買到一度12塊這是人民的納稅錢所以你深思你去討論好不好7月份就開始這麼做你的網站上面所公布的嘛你說要試辦嘛是不是"},{"start":7809.359,"end":7810.26,"text":"我們現在先休息三分鐘"},{"start":7850.037,"end":7850.659,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8071.704,"end":8072.245,"text":"邱志偉委員請作詢答"},{"start":8097.509,"end":8118.334,"text":"謝謝主席 請這個市長休息一下啊 休息一下台電李董事長 台電曾董事長 中油李董事長 台水李董事長 台糖楊董事長"},{"start":8121.946,"end":8137.253,"text":"今天主要是討論國營事業人力的問題那當然國營事業受到經濟部相關的這個任務指示裡面也有內部經營管理的問題人事的權益問題我想請教所以董事長都在"},{"start":8139.361,"end":8167.831,"text":"這個企業經營有內部的環境跟外部的環境內部的環境你會面臨到這個你的進環境的這個內部的強勢你的強項是哪裡你的弱項是哪裡外部經營環境你的這個機會是哪裡你的威脅是哪裡所以我想請教四位董事長你們針對目前在你們執政之下在你們這個主政之下市家國營企業的15萬的分析先從中游來好了"},{"start":8170.356,"end":8177.392,"text":"內部,你們強項在哪裡?弱勢在哪裡?外部的機會在哪裡?他的威脅在哪裡?"},{"start":8181.298,"end":8208.885,"text":"根文報告那當然中國公司身為國營事業因為相對穩定福利也比較好所以基本上這就是應該是國營事業的一個強項那落下當然如果落實相對的其實這個都還蠻相同那相對也因為國營事業所以有很多框架有很多這個滑頓面這一點是比較難一下民營企業那現階段面臨到外部經營環境的機會在哪裡"},{"start":8210.905,"end":8232.03,"text":"那目前我以中油來講的話其實就是現在面臨全球淨零碳排的這個危機危就是機會嘛是危機也是轉機我想對於中油公司來講我們再往這悠遊減碳節能未來的這樣子一個轉型的方向來想我想這是非常好的機會那外部威脅其實"},{"start":8236.491,"end":8251.025,"text":"我想這個都是相對的一樣剛剛講的這是一個機會那當然本身就是一個威脅嘛因為中油公司是能源事業是石化產業所以面對全球暖化氣候變遷我們是海嘯第一排"},{"start":8251.846,"end":8278.66,"text":"我們是首當其衝所以針對SWAT你也很清楚嘛是強項要讓它更強,弱項要讓它變小是然後你的這個機會要讓它擴大你的這個威脅要讓它降低這是你作為一個董事長該有的責任對不對是是你作為一個董事長你現階段你作為國營事業那你需要經濟部給你協助的思想最目前在目前最迫切的最迫切的是什麼思想我想這一部分目前政治的問題是中油公司的政治的問題嗎"},{"start":8280.026,"end":8289.648,"text":"當然幾個面那當然就是說人力資源的方面當然需要大部還有包括大燕共同協助嘛當然以現在來講我們的實際人是16800多位嘛844位那事實上我們的編制員是17000多還有大概1000多個一個缺口那多久時間可以補齊"},{"start":8304.392,"end":8321.555,"text":"但是這個缺口可能在我7月16日一批退休 明年1月16日一批退休 缺口會擴大 也是就大概持平大概balance這樣一個狀況 所以這些聯視長都有聽到了就是他們的這個目前需要進一步協助的事項 這個回去要跟部長再報告一下"},{"start":8322.296,"end":8338.212,"text":"那政治的問題需不需要經濟部協助?那當然就是說在未來的轉型很多往新能源的領域都需要大部跟大院來協助包括這個青龍方面的一個發展那包括短期以短期來講我們新市區已經在5月13號獲得這個中國市"},{"start":8341.707,"end":8343.868,"text":"所以每家國營事業都有相同的問題"},{"start":8370.525,"end":8371.667,"text":"謝謝李董事長謝謝鄭董事長台電鄭董事長一樣的問題請教鄭董事長"},{"start":8376.457,"end":8399.905,"text":"內部的強勢跟弱勢外部的機會跟威脅剛才李董事長提到的臺電也都有一定的相當性最重要的大概是這樣子臺電主要是我們有工程人員還有機電類的人員跟現在國內最主要的產業其實在人才上是最高度重疊競爭的那這個部分我們其實也透過很多方式來解決"},{"start":8401.305,"end":8424.551,"text":"首先第一件事我們包括今年條新我們都把那個比較就是讓新進同仁條的比例相對來講比較高我們坐在這邊的副總啊等等的幾乎就是只按照規定在跳我想說盡量增加提高新進人員的底薪和福利這個是重要的事另外一個就是說人才禁用上面其實國營會有幫了不少忙人事總處也幫我們忙"},{"start":8427.532,"end":8451.838,"text":"就是讓我們在既有的人事法令裡面可以彈性的規範我們都運用但接下來在人才競爭上面我想大概還是兩個大事第一個就是我們在同類型的行業類別裡面的薪資在人才的競爭上面是不是能夠有一個比較合理的薪資第二個是人事金融的彈性希望能給我們彈性這是你們內部經營的問題你了解這個問題"},{"start":8454.199,"end":8472.106,"text":"希望提出有效解決方案 外部有哪些有競爭的機會 還有哪些威脅其實就業務來講 其實最大的狀況就是 其實電力的需求是一直在成長的 就一個公司營運來講 你被需要其實是最大的機會"},{"start":8473.286,"end":8481.503,"text":"那最大的挑戰也是同時在這個被需要的同時能夠充分的供應這是我們相對來講要去努力的"},{"start":8486.999,"end":8512.876,"text":"我想現階段大概委員也清楚就行政院編了一千億的預算還沒有到位對 這個還帶審議那個已經送來立院了已經送來立法院現在就是還上帶大院審議我們要快速 立法院要加速審查因為立法院議程很多所以我們希望能夠有機會派上 謝謝我們大家一起努力盡快讓這一千億能夠通過好 那個台堂那個楊董事長一樣問題請教您"},{"start":8516.656,"end":8535.513,"text":"謝謝委員大概基本上我們國營事業的內部問題大概都是差不多一個是同仁的一個是心態我是感覺我來台堂大概一年多我覺得是心態方面在內部方面大家要一個調整心態要怎麼調配心態他們是基本上是這樣國營事業當然有他的保障"},{"start":8539.036,"end":8565.381,"text":"那一方面國營事業有類似公務員的一個保障但是以台糖來說在外部上面台糖的300多個品項全部都要跟外部做競爭跟油、電、水是不一樣所以我們台糖的同仁在這一方面基本上在這一方面也表現得相當的還可以表現在這個獲利方面"},{"start":8566.601,"end":8567.482,"text":"那來自於外部的威脅有哪些呢?"},{"start":8589.08,"end":8610.181,"text":"基本上啦就是我常說台糖在一二級產業做得非常好但是在外部上面我們就比不上所謂的第三級行銷方面在外部要跟大家做競爭一定要有一個行銷但是行銷需要編列的這個費用費用的話你投入的費用沒有產出一定的效能"},{"start":8611.118,"end":8612.278,"text":"最後請台水理事長趕快問大家請稿"},{"start":8637.907,"end":8654.975,"text":"謝謝委員指導,那開水公司大概我們也自己經常在做SWAT分析,那水公司的一些優勢最主要我們全省各個官網都有聯通在一起,可以相互做一些支援調度,那因為"},{"start":8656.235,"end":8682.808,"text":"水公司我們有很多的專業就是水處理或是摘水工程的專業的人才在我們水公司因為畢竟是我們國內也是最大的一個摘水事業所以所以相關的我們有很多的廠商可以從而做利用那另外在類似的部分大概我們就是有一些管線比較老舊的問題可能大菸這邊也經常在關切"},{"start":8684.189,"end":8684.91,"text":"另外我們也去討論AI智慧的這個區塊"},{"start":8711.19,"end":8727.331,"text":"進步很快速或許我們可以導入一些的這些科技來加強我們的管理那我們也是注意到我們公司的一個體質就是最近可能也是極端氣候影響可能孤寒的議題或是說有一些停塞的議題"},{"start":8728.331,"end":8752.684,"text":"市委董事長都在就是說如何把內部的這個所面對的環境把它這個優勢把它強化把它這個相對劣勢把它縮小把外部的機會把它擴大多元化這個威脅降低這是大家共同的責任那連市長你都聽到了市委董事長他們都有提出他們相關的看法那最後這個30秒我跟市長講就是說"},{"start":8755.265,"end":8775.794,"text":"議員．"},{"start":8776.575,"end":8797.937,"text":"這個一定有相關的原因出現 相關的造成這個原因是哪 是什麼原因 針對這個問題能夠提出解決方案 最起碼讓女性在職場 在國營事業特別是台電中油的職場能夠維持這個比較高的一個比例 可能有相關法律的限制讓他們這個比例沒有辦法提升 跟國際同業來比較"},{"start":8800.736,"end":8808.499,"text":"應該是沒有法令限制這個啦 但是因為對理性應該是行業別的比例就比較低嘛 比法國比韓國 也是你們差5%"},{"start":8818.163,"end":8846.412,"text":"我覺得國營事業是可以就不同的職系或職位我把這個問題點出來的但是你要尊重這個問題我再跟他們提高理性的員工比例也拜託四位董事長針對我今天所提的SWAT的問題是不是有個書面資料因為執行時間太短沒有辦法講得非常清楚是不是有個書面資料提供給我針對你們提出的SWAT的分析我們再來做一些討論"},{"start":8849.046,"end":8849.586,"text":"陳昌明委員請做詢談"},{"start":8870.946,"end":8873.248,"text":"首先有請我們的連常務次長 台電曾董事長"},{"start":8884.85,"end":8903.771,"text":"首先孫董你現在是專任台電的董事長以前是政務次長現在我們新的常務次長上任了但是你在當政務次長的時候你也有答應我在一個後龍好望角那個關關地區"},{"start":8906.509,"end":8925.764,"text":"所以要經個能演展示館你也親自會館了好幾次不過你現在沒有當政務次長當臺電的董事長我不曉得你有沒有交代入屋給我們新的政務次長還是常務次長這個到底還要沒有效啦不要淪亡正義我是相信你講話很有信仰的人"},{"start":8926.505,"end":8947.845,"text":"那個跟委員報告就台電的部分負擔的費用這一塊我們都清清楚楚會執行那連次長基本上我相信次長接這個工作那個政務是延續性的你一定要趕快延續下去不要跟我拍拍屁股就走了齁我陪你跑了好幾趟啊要趕快去欸"},{"start":8948.706,"end":8949.647,"text":"我今天問的就會比較輕鬆"},{"start":8968.447,"end":8986.589,"text":"那整個你在當次長的時候還有台電董事長的時候你說你的台電是消波塊為了一直通貨的膨脹各方面所以很多都由台電來吸收但是最近有一個問題大家在討論"},{"start":8988.072,"end":9009.313,"text":"而且幾天好像禮拜五的報紙出來說台電虧了一屁股的債現在包括我們的社福學校42億的電價要由各單位來負擔啊你的小破塊做到現在只有在這樣的情形之下你說"},{"start":9011.274,"end":9025.322,"text":"那個1000億的補助下來調整電價9個月有600億所以還差500億今年但是啊天然氣這邊會協助你中油還有現在藍莓的採購價格今年會平衡"},{"start":9032.446,"end":9052.543,"text":"那幾千億在那裡啊你這個42億你不要去說做一個台中的公路小破塊一下子就消失掉了你要去要把它取消掉我給你建議不然你去我們那邊聽你去台電那邊聽你落土的話你盡量就照那個家族"},{"start":9053.479,"end":9074.709,"text":" 那個月應該的現在調整價格 會六度的財政都比較困難 有分等級的 你又叫人來負擔這個學校社會團體 阿你孫政長院長當時在講的時候斑斑有冷氣 喔 講到跟我們那樣還想要去困亂 現在開始要愁眉苦臉了"},{"start":9075.709,"end":9092.263,"text":"我感覺哈哈若是團體要看狀況來補貼不要一次的取消這個不然會引起民進黨執政選前一套選後一套一直那斑斑有冷氣斑斑有電腦到現在到這小風雨啊"},{"start":9093.204,"end":9120.419,"text":"我為你們的政黨著想不要看囉我是以善意的提出來看你這個要怎麼改變應該是這樣講就是說事情是因為那個是在就是上電價調整前的一個討論會議上面做出來的一個決議狀況就是這個樣子就是電價維持一個幅度然後針對相對弱勢的要有一定程度的補貼這一件事"},{"start":9121.84,"end":9134.664,"text":"政策沒有改變只是費用的部分由這些目的事業主管機構來辦中央的目的事業主管機構中央就全部付錢啦啊這個洞補這個洞都一樣的洞啊人家對台電覺得以前你們犧牲的形象現在以後沒有你就要給我經營啊我知道你在"},{"start":9151.07,"end":9153.171,"text":"提醒什麼事情但我會把事情解釋"},{"start":9180.213,"end":9187.852,"text":"可是現在其他坐在底下的3位委員都是六都的他六都有錢啊他土地的價格那麼高他們不會講話啦"},{"start":9189.557,"end":9215.73,"text":"我很自信不會講話回六都了你不要以為票桌的地方你們在廠場照顧票桌的地方你就好啊去人手啊那不合理啦報告委員我們大概是這樣子齁就是說我們會把所有這些成本的一些還有您提到的一些關於對我立了中央編制預算全部補治六都的時候我跟你講他們錢太多他們都是被挖變工的挖只要賣吃一千瓶大概都夠了"},{"start":9216.75,"end":9244.892,"text":"我們要賣資3萬瓶還不過來禮頓會阿絕不會這樣逼搞做事情有各種地區不一樣不要以為六都的你以為把他們弄好不講話一定會廢除非六都的話應該特別注意阿好好考慮一下好不好不然的時候我相信這個問題一定會持續下來原來這個政府選前就什麼答應都好選後什麼都沒有了"},{"start":9245.697,"end":9272.003,"text":"好不好 感謝你一下謝謝 謝謝委員還有剛剛談到人事問題第一個所以這就顧啊剛剛出席委員有講到人事彈性你這個很重要你們銜接的期間你給三個未來訓練這個人給他熟悉狀況以後的意外就比較少人事總裁這個要特別注意到其實7月"},{"start":9273.325,"end":9300.868,"text":"人的成本非常重要你這邊給他信任一下然後去銜接的話事情會安全掉這樣有道理嗎現在去做不是你們退了一個才進一個不能這樣做啦臺灣你曉得要退休的時候就要提早跟人事總裁人事行政是聯合的不要一板一眼這個是跳動的時代好不好"},{"start":9302.715,"end":9330.331,"text":"再來我覺得臺電、中油、自來水還有茶糖都是很優秀的人才薪水有沒有把它提高現在都搶人才你不管臺電、中油進去的我都覺得很優秀以前留下來的產種包括自來水公司、包括臺糖那些以前比較善良的人沒辦法去留學都在臺電、中油那裡吃飯了自來水公司那時候還算穩定"},{"start":9331.793,"end":9358.274,"text":"你現在大家都在搶人才啊我剛剛有講到AI的人才現在是世界都在我們台灣求人才只要稍微基本的話都會納入裡面啊因為我們台灣很偽詐把台灣的AI人才訓練完了以後都送給日本送給美國送給歐洲台灣還要每天去找人因為他們可以印美鈔可以自己印薪水特別高"},{"start":9359.985,"end":9360.165,"text":"10萬多人"},{"start":9389.96,"end":9393.121,"text":"好好這方面研究一下好不好"},{"start":9414.773,"end":9414.793,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":9439.458,"end":9459.114,"text":"謝謝陳常委員 謝謝那個剛剛董事長特別強調的1000億他已經送到委員會來這個是在財政委員會審議那這個是要撥補給台電公司跟剛剛陳委員所提的他們地方沒錢的沒電的跟這個是不相關的因為我們我給我們議會人士報告"},{"start":9461.556,"end":9479.508,"text":"我們經濟委員會由此以來不分藍綠白我們都非常理性的在問政我也希望我們行政部門就委員所要提的跟剛才邱志偉委員所要的四大公司你們的這個SWAT的部分要請核實把資料給他們就證如早上這個"},{"start":9482.21,"end":9484.152,"text":"接下來我們請賴瑞仁委員"},{"start":9510.916,"end":9511.477,"text":"臺灣有沒有缺點?"},{"start":9526.287,"end":9549.822,"text":"報告委員讓臺灣不缺電就是臺電的責任所以沒有缺電的問題部長有提到他為了要讓外界更加的清楚說7月份又公開相關的電力資訊我看到其實已經相當多的資訊公開不管是電力資訊包括用電曲線圖包括這個備轉容量率包括發電量都有了"},{"start":9550.282,"end":9550.943,"text":"7月份還要公布什麼樣的數據?"},{"start":9556.936,"end":9579.256,"text":"部長的意思是對下一個階段的預測就是對未來的預測所以7月份會公布8月份的預測數字那現在資料出來了嗎我們正在整理所以7月1日會如期的來上線來公布下一個月份的數字因為部長現在出訪我們希望能夠有機會回來跟他報告過把這事情確認下來"},{"start":9584.951,"end":9586.792,"text":"7月份公布8月份的相關的用電的一些,所以等於電量的準備的狀況,隔一個月後的"},{"start":9603.4,"end":9614.488,"text":"我看了一下這個昨天的資料啦齁其實用電量是3629萬千瓦那預估會到最高到4070但是當天最高的會到4629萬千瓦這個數字是正確的嘛對不對對就我們網站上的資料還是9點20的資料是所以從這樣來看的時候其實如果以"},{"start":9627.376,"end":9644.464,"text":"例年最高大概是2022年7月22日4074萬千瓦的話其實我們的量還是多出了將近有600萬千瓦所以量其實是都有超前做一些準備的"},{"start":9644.884,"end":9661.114,"text":"報告委員這是日間風啦齁你現在提的這個日間風的部分我們現在都在掉落上完全都沒有問題好那有的會比較擔憂因為日間的時候其實太陽光電是相當強的齁我看幾乎占到第三的占比第三啦齁燃氣最高"},{"start":9661.638,"end":9664.4,"text":"我們現在葉尖峰的狀況基本上我們最少應該我們現在都有7%左右的那個被轉容量"},{"start":9678.87,"end":9705.505,"text":"備轉容量力在7以上所以7以上的話基本上還是穩健的因為其實夜間封的時間跟過去日間封時間會比較長很長的時間那夜間封時間會比較短所以我們基本上就是備轉其實是因應基礎風險的問題那時間比較短我們在預估的量上面我們準備量就會不必準備的那麼多不用準備那麼多當然就比較不會有太多的一些消耗"},{"start":9706.466,"end":9726.443,"text":"對,因為成本,那個倍轉容量是成本是,那我也看了一下齁,這個大概也預估啦齁,在因為7月份大概都是有可能是用電的高峰啦齁,氣溫也比較高,那但這幾天氣候相當的異常,溫度已經相當高,所以我看已經有的站到了全台的歷年的這個用電量第三名了齁,那當然下個月"},{"start":9727.163,"end":9751.609,"text":"也有可能還會增加那我看你們的預估是會用到4,119萬千瓦這個大概就創下新高了那如果在這樣的狀況下的話我們用電還是沒有問題嗎跟委員報告日間風的部分我覺得那個大家不用天天都追他有沒有破紀錄因為今年可能夏天那個破紀錄就是比原來那個4074高的機會都會非常的大對"},{"start":9752.409,"end":9777.575,"text":"好 那個是 這個沒有什麼 這不是對我們來講 不是那個意外但我要講的是電力上面的供應是沒有問題的嘛 對不對 是所以也請國人放心啦 台電這一塊跟經濟部有做萬全的一些準備因為日尖峰會一直有 會有新的紀錄出來 這個在今年度一定是常態對 特別是6月份已經開始有很多的開始在往上衝高 那7月份有可能還會再 是的 好 那"},{"start":9778.515,"end":9792.645,"text":"所以大概到整個用電量看起來就是整個用電狀況是沒有問題的那我要講的是其實大家擔憂的未來的部分我也看了一下從今年的部分我們會除以大概是272萬千瓦但是我們會進來的會有新增的會有333萬千瓦"},{"start":9797.068,"end":9826.334,"text":"包括到2025年一樣這個新增的都比除役的多2026新增的比除役的多2027新增的2028新增比除役的一樣都多大概100萬千瓦左右所以政府在這一塊其實也預做了準備現在我們不斷的講半導體產業的投資或者是講AI這些投資用電有可能會增加包括這個回台的投資不斷的增加但是這一塊電力都是做了準備我覺得這一塊董事長要不要再說明更清楚一點"},{"start":9827.094,"end":9852.447,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們這一塊現在結出來的都是那個比較大型的基礎那目前還有再生能源還有等等一些基礎調度的一些做法那我想幾個事第一個事情是我們節電這個當然還是first fill這就對減碳都有很大的幫助其他的部分就是我們在台電在新基礎的建設上面這一段時間確實是高峰"},{"start":9853.928,"end":9870.738,"text":"那也感謝各位委員的支持讓我們機組有更新的機會那我想說這個工作非常的重要我們要儘快的更新新的機組上來所以知道嗎不只今年沒有缺電問題在未來如果照這樣的規劃這還都是大型的機組嗎還有其他的在任人員都進來所以也沒有缺電的問題嗎"},{"start":9872.198,"end":9899.432,"text":"我們現在有三個電廠在蓋新的機組有兩個電廠環評通過在招標那有兩個電廠的計畫現在在做可行性評估那要報怨來核准所以同步進行所有的整個電力建設那也包含電網在內所以都超前部署了不管是這個電廠的部分包括電網的韌性的部分都做了一些部署了嗎"},{"start":9900.313,"end":9908.102,"text":"我們這個部分真的是因應電力的需要我們會提前來做更早的就是以台電過去的"},{"start":9909.552,"end":9911.874,"text":"為什麼還是坊間很多不斷的在講缺電缺電的問題?曾董事長"},{"start":9939.956,"end":9944.291,"text":"說明一下為什麼坊間還這麼多的講缺電造成人心惶惶"},{"start":9946.346,"end":9970.778,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我想說這個部分我們會盡全力來說明那當然台電公司在供電穩定上面持續的努力來證明這件事可能是最重要的不過我們要穩定的供電也需要大家支持新的電力建設所以我們希望新的電力建設能夠得到支持"},{"start":9971.498,"end":9989.592,"text":"必然你要用電但是如果不蓋新電廠甚至連變電所都不蓋的時候那電網應該都遇到問題如果沒有蓋新的變電所也沒有辦法拉電網其實很困難那尤其是報告委員我簡單說一下就是我們現在很多電箱人行道上的電箱過去都是因為纜線要地下化而產生的"},{"start":9992.634,"end":10020.775,"text":"那這些電箱我們也常常被要求要移動位置啊等等的一些狀況我們會警力但是真的要拜託社會能夠支持電力設備因為我們現在需要這些電力設備我也希望有些比較老舊的設備的時候也要提早來更新不要再動不動就有時候發生一些這樣的狀況停電往往就很容易被渲染成好像缺電那我認為這個其實對於整個所有的辛苦的同仁都是不公平而且對台灣的整個投資環境對台灣整個民生都會受到一定的影響"},{"start":10021.513,"end":10046.12,"text":"我想配電系統的加強我們會努力早上我有跟召委請了一個半小時的假也是在做這一件工作我想我們會加強努力不過還是要跟委員報告一件事電力設施的興建一定會在我們生活周邊因為電一定要送到你家所以這些電力設施的興建希望能夠得到社會更多的支持"},{"start":10046.34,"end":10063.779,"text":"這一個我也在強調這個我們看一下今天早上這個數字北部的部分電力其實相對是比較需要由南部跟中部送上來的所以我還是希望這個台電還是要不斷去克服這個問題北部相對電力上是吃緊的"},{"start":10064.36,"end":10091.561,"text":"來﹗"},{"start":10092.966,"end":10115.348,"text":"這個部分我們一定會來做說明我舉個例子就好了協和電廠除役以後北部的這個用電它將近有600萬千瓦但是未來它可能有470萬的一個電力的一個缺口這樣的缺口的部分可能就是如果北部不找到這些電力來源的話全台灣當然不缺電但是中南部必須送電上來"},{"start":10116.108,"end":10141.072,"text":"所以我認為這個事情還是要經濟部跟台電要審慎去思考電力用這樣的傳送其實不是一個好的方式除了耗損包括對於中南部也不見得是一個公平的方式我希望這一塊台電公司跟經濟部要審慎來做處理好不好最後再問一次啦董事長台灣有沒有缺電的問題我們會達成穩定供電的目標講得更清楚一點台灣有沒有缺電的問題就沒有缺電的問題我們會達成穩定供電的目標"},{"start":10151.278,"end":10174.705,"text":"來我們請牛許廷委員請做詢答謝謝主席經濟部次長中油的總經理跟董事長有請好我們請三位謝謝市長午安這個"},{"start":10178.413,"end":10188.092,"text":"今天談的是國營事業的人才斷層問題這本席認為這正本清源之道當然你旁邊兩位算正面典型這個我給新政府一個肯定為什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":10189.38,"end":10217.998,"text":"你大概不太清楚因為大家都常常講說國營事業董事長等等常常淪於政府的酬庸的工具但你旁邊這兩位剛好就不是這樣兩位都是從中油基層出生比如從組長開始然後做到主任然後做到做到這個副總總經理然後再做董事長這是正確的我希望從經濟部開始不是只有中油其他的也應該是以內生為主你要鼓勵基層員工讓他們的生涯規劃可以爬到一個非常"},{"start":10218.638,"end":10218.738,"text":"但是﹖"},{"start":10242.185,"end":10251.516,"text":"但是人才問題歸人才問題我還是要問具體的問題這個最近本學選區出了件大事就我們桃園煉油廠國光電廠二期擴建計畫裡面辦理環評結果在調查過程中發現廠區裡面有5.5公頃的土地遭到重金屬的污染"},{"start":10261.027,"end":10288.524,"text":"突然中芯、鎳、砷等重金屬嚴重超標石油、碳氫化合物也是嚴重超標舉個例子來說芯的濃度每公斤140014100毫克是標準值每公斤2000毫克的7倍石油、化合物等超標達到10.8倍根據中油調查污染的土地在廠區內那請問你們誰要回答都可以請問誰製造了這樣的污染"},{"start":10291.671,"end":10320.245,"text":"委員跟委員報告事實上我想委員剛剛都把這個狀況都已經講出來了嘛那事實上我們去因為國光的這個電廠要設置我們要做營業的一個移轉必須要具備這些法規上土壤的一個檢測嘛檢測報告出來其實我們也是有點shark怎麼會有這樣子的一個剛剛委員提到的嘛包括新嘛包括內嘛包括生嘛包括TPH總是有碳水化合物等等"},{"start":10320.985,"end":10341.517,"text":"所以我們後來去追去看齁因為雖然是5公頃多那事實上後來點的位置調查出來是8-3 11-12點狀的不連續狀沒有啦你回答我的問題就好了誰造成這個污染的嘛對那所以我們就去追嘛有可能最有可能就是說當時在12號這一塊地方因為在民國86年要蓋"},{"start":10343.638,"end":10344.239,"text":"所以是不是煉油廠就是污染的源頭嗎?"},{"start":10358.653,"end":10385.338,"text":"是嘛就簡單講就好了嘛這個喔本席作為龜山出生我以前是龜山做市議員然後現在一樣桃園第一選區的這個立法委員這是我選區的杯哥阿為了台灣的經濟發展我們捐出了土地犧牲了空氣品質當然為了成就這個國家能夠順利的往前走可是回報的結果卻是我的我家鄉的土地一而再再而三的受到重創這對地方來講不太公平吧董事長"},{"start":10386.218,"end":10388.119,"text":"臺灣市政府6月29日通過了,我們現在下一步要做的就是水保計畫。"},{"start":10402.648,"end":10429.197,"text":"我們希望水保計劃能夠趕快到國營展開政策董事長又把這話聽清楚來了既然啊前面捐出土地換來是這樣子一個悲劇的結果你要我繼續用這塊土地來貢獻你的發電啊這本行完全沒辦法接受這件事情才剛在地方開始發酵你想想看要是龜山的鄉親桃園的鄉親瞭解了這樣的事情之後他們巴不得我們前面都討論過煉油廠牽廠的問題我們都願意退步說退一步講說我們用務實的角度讓你給你時間讓你去做轉型"},{"start":10430.877,"end":10448.277,"text":"可是你看看我們相信煉油廠相信政府的結果是什麼是我的土地持續的來受創啊是我的污染越來越多啊然後你現在講說我要在這裡蓋發電廠這本席完全沒辦法接受我選區裡面的鄉親也沒辦法接受本席是建議啦你這土地既然遭受污染富裕是一定要的"},{"start":10448.857,"end":10463.562,"text":"復育完就復育完不要再想在這個地方再蓋電廠免得二次傷害三次傷害N次傷害這對我桃園對我龜山是絕對不公平的事希望經濟部也好中友也好針對這樣的決策再行討論這是第一個本期的主張"},{"start":10464.142,"end":10483.668,"text":"第二個這我們也跟郭智慧部長其實已經約好了這會期一結束麻煩夏祥走一走瞭解一下周邊居民的心聲瞭解一下大家對於煉油廠存在的壓力跟無奈並且提出有效的改善的措施還給桃園人公平正義我想那是非常有必要的好不好好謝謝辛苦了好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":10489.105,"end":10512.606,"text":"市長在這裡因為四大公司我們都非常的希望就陳如中有一樣是由基層提拔上來這個等於我們要怎麼樣穩定人才他可以留住這是一個最大的一個鼓勵最大的鼓勵好謝謝請回座接下來我們請李博義委員李博義李博義委員我們請陳佩瑜委員"},{"start":10519.155,"end":10519.617,"text":"謝謝主席 有請經濟部次長 謝謝我們再請連次長"},{"start":10529.429,"end":10547.72,"text":"市長午安時間有限我就直接跟您討論了在關於國營事業的體育幹事納保這個議題呢從去年我們辦公室的10月總質詢到現在8個月了上一次經濟部長來的時候部長也說如果他在民間企業工作階段這些球員就是他的員工當然要納保那相關納保的問題其實應該不是你們說了算我們也問過勞動部勞動部說"},{"start":10552.162,"end":10571.293,"text":"就目前的做法從來可能會有問題可是你們如果真心願意為這些體育幹事納保從來都不會是問題只有台電要不要做的問題那上一次質詢之後呢我們跟台電繼續討論台電給我們一個說法說這些體育幹事是練習生我們來跟次長看一下"},{"start":10572.321,"end":10598.543,"text":"目前這張是男子棒球隊我們來看一下他的人數組成還有他的年紀19歲到25歲說這些是練習生再往下這個是女子籃球隊16歲到32歲一樣說他們是練習生再來男子足球隊18歲到30歲一樣繼續說他們是練習生次長您的社會工作經驗非常豐富你覺得按照這樣的年齡人數還有薪資這些人真的是所謂的高中生跟練習生嗎"},{"start":10602.133,"end":10606.376,"text":"事實上呢如果要處理台電體育幹事投保的問題重點是經濟部部經濟部應該遏止國營司繼續自認是勞保的主管機關勞保的主管機關應該是勞動部對吧次長"},{"start":10626.248,"end":10653.437,"text":"對可是呢到底怎麼解釋誰該投保誰不應該投保不應該讓經濟部的國營司跟台電來自行處理甚至國營司在跟我們辦公室討論的時候他還語帶威脅的說那不然就解散球隊啊不然就解聘選手啊這是我們國營事業該有的態度嗎賴清德總統在上任前提出要升格體育發展司而不那相關的體育產業政策落到經濟部卻是這個狀態次長您可以接受嗎"},{"start":10656.044,"end":10683.17,"text":"我覺得這個應該要由勞動主管機關來做解釋是 謝謝次長您的回應非常正確應該勞動主管機關我們不會只有提出質疑我們提出了對策我們辦公室設置了相關運產發展條例的修正草案也就是根據勞動部的建議其實在人員聘用上你們可以不受到國營事業管理人管理法人員禁用的限制所以我們提出了這個草案如果按照次長您剛剛說法您支持嗎知道"},{"start":10683.61,"end":10684.81,"text":"經濟部必須秉持政府保障選手權益精神,直接為這些體育幹事納保勞保"},{"start":10706.915,"end":10725.435,"text":"甚至您剛剛說勞動部已經表示只要合約寫清楚就可以了沒有終身僱用的問題如果這次你們不能接受那中策我們來看支持我們班東市提的運動產業發展條例的修正讓國營事業球隊彈性用人法院這件事情並不會有台電之前一直說的他就變成終身人員這個問題了不會有這個問題下下策"},{"start":10729.349,"end":10754.418,"text":"半年內如果還是沒有辦法解決相關問題必須要由經濟部主動申請勞動部協助進行勞檢確認勞動的樣態有沒有符合僱傭關係而不是讓台電片面解釋也就是說我們積極的提出問題我們也提出解放次長請問我們時間有限請問您的態度是這個我們待會去研究一下好不好好那我們辦公室也會再積極追蹤好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝"},{"start":10761.333,"end":10776.219,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請黃珊珊委員請做詢答謝謝主席 我想也請次長跟台電董事長我們再請次長跟曾董"},{"start":10783.292,"end":10796.458,"text":"兩位好我想大家最近都是看到AI的風氣運用然後台灣也在這一波裡面可能會是將來非常重要的當紅炸子機那其實最重要的台灣有這樣的能量"},{"start":10797.022,"end":10816.408,"text":"﹚"},{"start":10817.358,"end":10821.281,"text":"對您來說我們現在包括設置相關的大廠我們都需要做環評對吧"},{"start":10843.715,"end":10848.82,"text":"但我曾經質詢過環境部奇怪我們的環評裡面水要評估唯一不要評估的就是電有電力配置的環評機制有但是基本上都是台電"},{"start":10866.124,"end":10880.826,"text":"不是他自己嗎?對以台灣的狀況來講現在都要台電部長你覺得次長還有董事長其實這些剛剛講企業有責任那我們是不是應該賦予企業相關的對於電力自己自有自足的責任"},{"start":10881.927,"end":10906.292,"text":"否則我們現在是用全民撥補的方式來補助或者是讓這些企業他們可以在臺灣生產我的意思是說第一環評裡面要把企業的責任也加進去不單單只是台電的責任兩位同意嗎我跟委員報告我們是幫台電想辦法你不用負這麼大的責任"},{"start":10907.639,"end":10925.825,"text":"那個委員我跟您報告一下現在其實在環評的過程我把實況我收一下實況沒關係我的意見就是說簡單來講就是科學園區環評現在都已經包括再生能量多少都寫死了其實都在框都在框科技業啦是因為現在他們其實是台灣的最大量尤其是台積電他4年成長了將近70%的用電但是我們台電的發電量其實成長了7.5%"},{"start":10935.968,"end":10956.794,"text":"也就是他們占比台灣用電的比例會越來越高現在最大的會來的量能大概就是所謂的數據中心跟資訊中心全世界的大廠都要來台灣設資訊中心但是在能源管理法裡面我們有沒有對於這些數據中心資訊中心納入我們的相關的規定"},{"start":10957.762,"end":10964.645,"text":"目前有嗎?但是資料中心不是製造業所以目前沒有在能源管理法裡面納管是嗎?要做了所以接下去其實我認為給企業相關的責任讓他們也負擔一部分的責任否則現在再生能源大家生產完賣給台電比較划算"},{"start":10982.054,"end":11002.319,"text":"因為台電收購價很高所以大家做完之後沒有要做自己的事情但是反正賴著台電就好了所以我的意思是說在國外很多小區或者是很多的廠房他們可以自己發電自己自主多的才能賣出來但是我們現在是多的先賣給你你再提供給他他永遠是賺錢的"},{"start":11004.703,"end":11018.475,"text":"臺電公司每年撥補不是辦法所以接下去是怎麼樣資產活化然後讓企業負擔相關的電力責任或者是將來有一天也許他們可能有各種不同的機組發電"},{"start":11019.881,"end":11041.978,"text":"他們自己可以自己制度的情況下台電可以把這些權限讓企業自己負起責任我想未來的方向應該是這樣沒錯吧對法律也輕鬆好不好希望台電不要老是到立法院來挨罵我們希望他們你們變成是台灣電力配置的轉運站而不是單純負擔責任的唯一的"},{"start":11043.1,"end":11043.12,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11063.114,"end":11067.438,"text":"數據中心我們上個禮拜國防會有來報告剛剛要運算中心他們我們現在規劃只有200"},{"start":11076.596,"end":11076.996,"text":"的規劃如果是"},{"start":11100.114,"end":11100.614,"text":"接下來我們請參議委員請做詢答"},{"start":11128.107,"end":11133.608,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請這個蓮次長好我們再請蓮次長我也好次長那因為這個媒體有報導這個國營事業也出現人才荒那看這報導我一開始也不太相信我想國營事業應該是大家爭先恐後想要進來的"},{"start":11156.055,"end":11175.935,"text":"那如果以這個表格來看我右邊這一個表格你看從90年到109年整個全國的公務人員這公務人員包括行政機關的以及國營事業的公務人員你可以看到傳統行政機關的公務人員是逐年增高"},{"start":11177.116,"end":11205.367,"text":"從90年的時候21萬到109年的時候是25萬7千那相對國營事業的人數的比例從12萬現在降到了6萬也就是說這將近20年的時間國營事業的人數是減半這是砍了一半的一個人數那未來3到5年內還有所謂的一個退休的一個退休潮"},{"start":11206.067,"end":11212.068,"text":"那如果這樣的話市長國營事業會出現這個人才荒嗎?"},{"start":11213.345,"end":11237.283,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經注意到這個所以今天那個召委才安排了這樣的一個專案報告來提醒我們說要有相當的配套措施來解決這個問題那我們現在剛才委員講的這個應該是有的是民營化的問題齁那我們我們這個四大公司現在目前也針對今天召委所排的這個我們提出了一些相對的應對策那"},{"start":11238.284,"end":11265.202,"text":"剛剛委員講的4年內要填補將近4900人那因為我們現在目前一年在招聘的差不多有1000出頭那應該是可以補足這樣的一個缺口所以未來的話你們還是一樣會用退役補一的方式來做這個這個人員的禁用當然一般是一個蘿蔔一個坑但是我們因為現在有這種缺口我們會稍微採取比較彈性的做法這樣比較彈性是怎樣"},{"start":11266.263,"end":11288.786,"text":"所以說現在就有缺口了,所以可能現在就需要再補了對,要提前補,把未來的有一些要招進來好,那你們未來如果要再補的話,因為我事實上我們知道說很多國營事業,我們國營事業會經營很多面向那事實上很多面向的國營事業在經營上都不會有民營企業來得有競爭力"},{"start":11290.128,"end":11293.752,"text":"那如果我們未來整個國家大概是朝向減碳然後要所謂的ESG那這個都是未來國營事業必須要"},{"start":11312.713,"end":11323.489,"text":"領先就是說要做在民營去還要討錢那未來國營事業是不是應該要有更多的關於減碳的一個人才的一個徵用"},{"start":11326.694,"end":11354.315,"text":"這部分我們部長有告訴你說不管在減碳或是在剛才講的AI的應用這一部分國營事業要帶頭來做我們目前已經規劃要開始進行像中油現在都在公安在環保很多部分都已經開始用比較成熟AI那個鑑別式的那個技術已經開始在做了有齁有有有在做所以你們都有在推動齁好那我是不是再請那個自來水這個董事長"},{"start":11355.489,"end":11369.887,"text":"我們再請李董事長董事長我先前就有跟你談過事實上我們自來水"},{"start":11371.313,"end":11388.83,"text":"不管是站在減碳的角度或者是在節水的角度我們要怎樣減少這個水的一個浪費這個很重要我相信你也知道事實上以現在大概整個這個水供會有漏水的比率最高在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":11390.067,"end":11408.915,"text":"以我們公司內部現在的調查那漏水率最比較高的區域是在基隆跟屏東基隆跟屏東那如果以一個地區嘉義跟雲林的話是不是沿海跟平原比起來沿海的地方是漏水率比較高那為什麼會這樣"},{"start":11411.256,"end":11419.365,"text":"因為沿海地區有一些腐蝕性的問題啦,鹽分比較高。鹽化嘛,鹽化就是一樣是鐵壓的東西嘛,沒辦法這麼強鹽化的一個結果,所以算鐵壓也是會有的嘛。對。所以現在"},{"start":11429.696,"end":11441.346,"text":"自來水公司也有計畫說針對沿海地區避免它這樣的一個研化所以可能要換成高強度的HDPE的水管那你們這樣汰換的計畫目前進行到怎樣"},{"start":11446.511,"end":11471.067,"text":"我們那個更換的管材的部分還是放在我們降低漏水率的整體計畫裡面那像嘉義武器處這邊我們每年給武器處分配的預算大概有七八億左右那我會請我們嘉義地區區處針對沿海地區漏水率比較高的管段優先把它汰換"},{"start":11473.138,"end":11494.211,"text":"這個也要請教次長啦就針對這個漏水的這個問題嘛事實上先前也有討論過我們可能會直接用專案的方式然後來協助自來水公司然後讓他們有一筆比較大的預算然後在這幾年內用最快的速度解決漏水的問題因為我們現在知道說"},{"start":11496.115,"end":11513.082,"text":"這個水真的是吼 這個得來不易啦 要不要再加多水吼 因為吼 這個水管的問題吼 水管的問題 然後讓它流失了就很可惜 所以到底我們這樣的一個專款的一個計畫 耐用專款然後來減少漏水的這件事情 有辦法來爭取嗎"},{"start":11514.534,"end":11528.057,"text":"他們現在是提出800億要來請那個董事長是嗎?對啦,跟我們報告我們現在的降低漏水率計畫現階段是執行到113年那我們已經提報了114年到121年的8年的一個計畫總經費將近808億那這個計畫現在已經送給行政院來審議中"},{"start":11536.058,"end":11536.078,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":11565.626,"end":11581.749,"text":"接下來我們請葉元之委員請做詢答馬上請台電董事長謝謝好我們請曾董事長"},{"start":11590.642,"end":11607.951,"text":"總統好,我們現在在我們新北市啊最近停電越來越嚴重了我們特別去看了資料五月份的時候新北市呢大概有39處有發生停電的事故那其中37次是跟潰線或是跟一些線路有關"},{"start":11609.008,"end":11637.951,"text":"那6月份的時候更誇張了6月份近兩個禮拜停電已經28次就是兩個禮拜14天嘛28次平均一天就停電兩次那整個6月份大概有48次的停電那修復的時間有的也很長像5月份有一次在三重從停電到修復大概8個小時那6月份有一次是在新莊停電大概修復7個小時我不知道董事長你覺得這個是正常現象嗎"},{"start":11640.378,"end":11657.763,"text":"委員如果你願意聽我可以花一點時間解釋但是我時間沒有很多簡單講就是都會區現在都被要求線路要地下化所以我們過去用電線桿在送電的現在都在埋到地下那後來因為在路上有這些人孔蓋我們又開始做路屏"},{"start":11658.763,"end":11685.056,"text":"所以現在人口蓋有很多都下地就基本上被AC路面埋掉所以我們要找到這些人口蓋時間會稍微長一點那我們也在研究一些方法就是對於線路故障的偵測方式能不能夠有更好的方法來處理所以我們現在一方面要解決線路故障的問題那另外一方面就是修復的部分我們也就是說要儘快找到另外一個修復的部分我們如果在都會區的話"},{"start":11686.337,"end":11708.55,"text":"要做交通維護等等這些相關工作的準備確實時間上面相對來講會壓力比較大我剛剛指出的是兩個問題啦你回答一個嘛就是說現在修復時間會花比較長嘛但是第二個我覺得現在停電的那個頻率啊也越來越高那我當然知道每一次台電都要講說不是缺電啦只是事故啦但對一般的小老百姓而言沒有電用就是停電"},{"start":11709.17,"end":11728.935,"text":"他不會管你說是缺電還是說什麼發生故障只要台電沒有把那些輸配線系統把它處理好對小白海星就是沒有電用就是很不方便所以我希望說台電可以面對現實啦我們現在確實是停電的狀況是越來越頻繁越來越嚴重那台電不是之前有編一筆預算是做韌性電網的嗎這編多少錢"},{"start":11730.615,"end":11733.539,"text":"主要是輸電陷入還是比較大型的高壓供電那您關心這個問題我也做一個說明我們現在看到是今年度1到3月停電的次數是下降的"},{"start":11745.836,"end":11751.86,"text":"我剛舉的數字6月份在我們新北市近兩個禮拜就28次今年1到3月都還下降4月5月跟5月是上升6月我們現在還在做後面的統計6月的那個成長幅度沒有像4、5月那麼高"},{"start":11763.829,"end":11791.957,"text":"我們現在看到具體的狀況是你現在不能夠比爛嗎你現在講的我現在講的具體你只要一次發生停電大家就非常不方便我們是要讓停電的減少發生不是說好像我已經比之前好了我覺得心態上不是這樣啦我現在跟您分析說問題是什麼不用分析啦我跟你講你永遠都是在講藉口我們現在是希望你解決問題當然以你在台電待這麼久你要掰一些理由出來當然很容易啊但是對小老百姓來講就是沒有電可以用嘛"},{"start":11792.637,"end":11815.316,"text":"我現在是希望你可以解決問題委員我就是要回答你問題出在哪裡怎麼解決問題是已經持續發生好幾年阿幾年前的時候你們都說推給小動物阿小動物出來背鍋也好幾年了阿那為什麼這幾年都沒有辦法把問題解決呢過去這幾年其實是配電系統的跳電事故是在下降沒有我"},{"start":11816.437,"end":11830.553,"text":"你一直在跟我講這個我舉的就是具體的數字具體的數字就是之前兩個禮拜在我們新北市停電就是28次平均一天就停電兩次這就是最實在的數字啊"},{"start":11832.42,"end":11857.111,"text":"對沒錯那你現在我先把問題告訴你然後你現在給我的態度是這樣代表說下一次可能一天兩次停電也沒有什麼大不了的啊因為你台電態度就是這樣啊你現在一直在跟我講說這個很正常這是正常狀態所以呢預告應該是市民要去習慣以後就是一天可能在新北市就是平均就兩天跳電大家習慣就好是這個意思嗎"},{"start":11859.568,"end":11884.248,"text":"委員我還是要再說就是說全世界我們可以來參照這工作是怎麼樣子進行那如果您的標準是永遠都不會跳電這個我們也會來考慮不是永遠不會跳電是你的頻率越來越高希望你可以去瞭解把這問題解決那如果說董事長你的態度一直是說這正常啊跳電正常啊民眾沒有電用也沒差反正我們董事長有的做就好啊"},{"start":11888.592,"end":11890.573,"text":"委員你不可以把我沒有講的話加在我嘴裡我沒有這樣子講因為你剛剛從到尾都不覺得我沒有聽到你講一句話說你要去解決"},{"start":11908.283,"end":11908.784,"text":"好 敬禮委員 知委員"},{"start":11930.997,"end":11933.138,"text":"請先敬禮 謝謝"},{"start":11960.871,"end":11961.031,"text":"國營事業能力斷層"},{"start":11978.052,"end":11989.384,"text":"那我帶立法院都在一直倡議壯世代所以我今天來特別趕來給你提一個解方希望你聽得下去"},{"start":11994.128,"end":12014.856,"text":"從這個曲線當中看到這3年來從2020年到2023年我們的工作增加了108萬人工作量很多但是因為少子化所以這個求財大家搶人才搶得越來越困難"},{"start":12016.766,"end":12034.737,"text":"我們從這頁看,國營事業也是一樣因為現在以前是金飯完、銀飯完、鐵飯完、銅飯完但是這些保障越來越少,福利也那個所以你看我們的錄取率從2010年來台電從4%增加到13%"},{"start":12042.022,"end":12042.462,"text":"我們看到現在民間的"},{"start":12059.275,"end":12059.295,"text":"市長"},{"start":12077.674,"end":12077.814,"text":"OK 看起來"},{"start":12105.769,"end":12106.069,"text":"好,所以呢"},{"start":12126.175,"end":12149.897,"text":"這一方面年輕人才很困難所以我也告訴我們應該要從高齡的人才那過去我們從這個表當中我也覺得我們現在用人單位都還是挺有在1970年代把主要的勞動人口放在下方年輕人口就這個金字塔的下方但是台灣已經進入到2040年"},{"start":12152.449,"end":12179.556,"text":"主力在高層的人口所以要往這一方面那個要政策要大大的調整你不是一直想最近有一個台鐵的錄取一個員工64歲考上10%照常考試錄取的結果錄取你幾天就開始要準備退休因為65歲要退休所以呢相關的這一些也是很荒謬的事情"},{"start":12180.456,"end":12199.81,"text":"所以這裡也看到事實上這個我在談的高齡壯世代不是我們特別是人力單位其實有研究報告他的策略跟創意事實上達到人生的最高峰在60到80歲之間不是你想像的是我們沒有好好的去挖掘他的人力"},{"start":12201.01,"end":12225.064,"text":"所以國營事業好好地研究因為你們用了龐大的人力所以我最近在推動勞基法54條目前要送到二讀這個改了一個54條本來是65歲退休以後要改成如果勞工有工作意願得經僱主及勞工雙方協議延長之"},{"start":12227.145,"end":12245.128,"text":"所以國營事業是不是率先來想應對於這一方面的工作所以最後是不是可以請經濟部可否承諾針對國營事業善用中央世代55家豐富的人力資源可不可以在兩個月之內提出中央世代人力的運用計畫"},{"start":12246.51,"end":12246.53,"text":"謝謝市長謝謝"},{"start":12277.867,"end":12291.095,"text":"接下來我們請陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在現場我們請林德福委員林德福林德福委員不在現場我們請林思敏委員林思敏林思敏委員不在現場我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在現場我們請伍麗華伍麗華委員伍麗華不在現場我們請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢談"},{"start":12305.41,"end":12316.941,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會長工作夥伴、媒體資深女士先生、有請經濟部連次長和台電曾董事長。好,請以上兩位。"},{"start":12323.788,"end":12338.318,"text":"市長好 董事長好 在不久前我們郭部長做了一個描述很傳神說台積電的良率市長有沒有聽過他說台積電的良率像增1000個小籠包950個都完整沒有破皮的你有聽到嗎"},{"start":12339.798,"end":12361.871,"text":"有齁?那你覺得台積電的良率多少?95.5%是不是?他有的應該更高有的更高不良的大概只有0.5%那同樣的台電的用戶有多少戶你知道嗎?董事長知道嗎?超過1500萬1500萬戶用這個良率用這個良率我們每天要維持多少戶以上的不斷電才算是優良1500萬"},{"start":12364.994,"end":12370.858,"text":"董事長你算數比較好你說95%的良率那就是要小於75萬戶少於75萬戶嘛就是停電要少於75萬那請問台電維持每天都是標準嗎"},{"start":12380.086,"end":12381.766,"text":"市長,你們要對我們的國營事業訂出一個類似台積電良率的要求"},{"start":12405.714,"end":12424.565,"text":"一般的航空公司有里程事故率多少萬里程才出一個事故多少萬的供電戶我們才多久時間發生一個電力事故把這個定給台電讓他來好好表現好不好可以嗎總統可以接受喔好來我來問一下今天是退休潮啦說要出現斷層有這個情況嗎有沒有"},{"start":12427.448,"end":12445.854,"text":"呃 跟委員報告我是問那個次長 有沒有你台 國營事業現在退休潮已經慢慢開始了但是我要跟你強調我關心的不是台電的或中油或我關心的是這一個 來請看下一頁你知道我們屏東縣的自來水普及率多少嗎 我們董事長可以幫忙一下有沒有達到八成 次長知不知道"},{"start":12446.354,"end":12457.917,"text":"沒有沒有來請問董事長李董事長是請問你覺得台平東縣的政策普及率好不容易才從不到六成提升到快七成主要問題是人力不足還是預算不夠"},{"start":12459.382,"end":12468.069,"text":"跟委員報告,其實也不是從不到6層,應該更早,106年是不到5層,那現在已經突破7層全國的平均是92%,94.9%問題是說這個率算不夠還是人力不足?"},{"start":12480.981,"end":12492.951,"text":"這個應該不是人力不足啊不是人力不足但是我問過主計長前任主計長跟前任主計長他說有你們能做多少我通通編給你過去前章幾期是不是得到權力的支持這個因為"},{"start":12495.462,"end":12514.951,"text":"我們從前章計畫裡面有一個你直接簡單的講因為時間有限有沒有權力支持你的預算這個預算是從計畫是水利署都來了權力支持嘛權力支持但是為什麼今年明年的資格21你知道嗎因為主計總是說你們最多水公司只能做到19億"},{"start":12516.741,"end":12524.482,"text":"市長你要了解問題了沒有水公司目前的量能我們給他再多的預算他沒辦法執行發報完成阿是不是人力太少"},{"start":12525.558,"end":12552.754,"text":"跟委員報告齁應該不只19億啦因為本身我們屏東七處不只19億對我們還有一些管線開放的管線工程所以你們大概可以做到多少我們一個七處屏東七處啦齁一年大概二三十億還有我們一個工程處對包括工程處包括工程處那我就去跟主席長要求要給我們三十億加強屏東市自來水的普及可不可以"},{"start":12553.314,"end":12559.357,"text":"你保證喔 市長他答應喔委員我們已經送了一個800億的企劃喔是甚麼 東東藥水企劃多少是屏東縣的自來水普及我們因為普及率的提升我們是繼續在辦業館其實過去111年是編了20.5億112年編了17億113年編了15億 為什麼"},{"start":12581.363,"end":12609.412,"text":"因為其實呢這個是關於鹽管工程還有一個叫做檢疫自來水我知道你們去明年度的檢疫自來水原住民地區有保留有留下來有保住但是非原住民地區是不是刪掉了市長是不是這樣是因為什麼原因錢不夠還是人力不夠市長直接回答你如果說錢不夠我就去爭取這個這個是水利不是自來水檢疫的是我知道檢疫是水利署你是市長啊問你他剛好而已啊"},{"start":12610.586,"end":12611.066,"text":"市長你知道嗎?"},{"start":12611.066,"end":12611.186,"text":"知道"},{"start":12639.335,"end":12665.92,"text":"知道嗎?董事長也跟他講了,對不對?是不是過去下一頁,你們過去曾經這40年來你們的水質的污染處理問題有薄膜技術你們在極端氣候和汗老不均的情況上有沒有辦法去提供水質水量的穩定?是不是你們一度要去一個國家去協助他們制裁者工程,有沒有?有,有,這個之前有要協助新南向哪一個國家?印尼印尼我常去,印尼真的需要協助"},{"start":12667.034,"end":12687.548,"text":"市長我要告訴你如果你們擔心水公司這幾年擴充人力國內的自來水普及提升之後這些人力沒出去我告訴你叫做ODA叫做政府開發援助在中國叫做一帶一路但在台灣我們的國營事業的工程品的優良超過中國台灣這種信用超過中國他什麼意思"},{"start":12688.248,"end":12717.694,"text":"台灣的政府提供貸款給對手國對手國把這個貸款用來僱請台灣的營建工程商幫他們做基礎建設、公共設施錢都不會到外國政府口袋通通都回到台灣的承包商知道這個ODA嗎?好知道下一頁所以最後呢就這樣我們國內的基礎建設如果國營事業行有一律完成之後這些充實的人力可以用來不是閒置人力這些優質的人力可以用來協助政府做ODA你知不支持?市長知不支持?"},{"start":12719.099,"end":12735.26,"text":"支持好所以回去告訴你們的副理事長官所以公司的人力給我多支持一下預算我來幫你爭取好不好如果以後有這個量能幫其他的國家有幫國家興建他們的基礎建設用OT的方式好不好好謝謝主席"},{"start":12737.614,"end":12763.047,"text":"謝謝那那個主席總書要告訴他不要亂講話數字差那麼多謝謝接下來我們請何欣淳委員何欣淳何欣淳委員好主席台宣布我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢那這個詢答結束我們有委員謝一鳳委員"},{"start":12766.449,"end":12790.02,"text":"楊瓊怡委員．林俊憲委員所提的書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。書面質詢以及為其答覆的部分請於相關單位於一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會。本日議程處理完畢我們要特別感謝我們議事組人員還有行政部門謝謝大家媒體朋友大家辛苦了我們明天禮拜四繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":12801.43,"end":12802.452,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"16034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16034","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dcf5366a7ae6bcaf790a0be61fea14818627684c85f64cd7be5a69a41cb3794c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-26T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T12:38:00+08:00","duration":14850,"影片長度":"04:07:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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"start":14788.36971875,"end":14790.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14790.765968750002,"end":14791.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14791.710968750001,"end":14792.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14792.149718750003,"end":14792.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14792.68971875,"end":14792.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14792.723468750002,"end":14792.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14793.60096875,"end":14851.87034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1771.807,"end":1792.913,"text":"報告委員會我們現在繼續開會今天的議程是審查學生輔導法的相關修正草案共26案包括委員范雲等17人委員林宜瑾等22人委員張雅琳等19人委員李柏毅等18人委員黃秀芳等18人委員許智傑等25人委員許智傑等26人委員柯珍等18人委員陳培瑜等18人"},{"start":1799.255,"end":1801.558,"text":"委員陳培宇等18人擬委員洪孟楷等22人擬委員陳秀寶等20人擬委員郭玉琴等19人擬委員葛如軍等16人擬委員郭國文等19人擬委員郭國文等19人臺灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":1815.612,"end":1821.776,"text":"還有委員吳佩儀等16人擬具委員王玉敏等20人擬具委員萬美玲等19人擬具委員羅志強等16人擬具委員陳亭飛等19人擬具委員馬文君等24人擬具委員陳清輝等20人擬具委員莊瑞雄等26人擬具委員林月琴等19人擬具我們今天僅進行詢答擬具我們首先介紹我們在場的委員紅孟楷委員"},{"start":1843.63,"end":1848.972,"text":"外美林委員陳秀寶委員陳培宇委員教育部部長鄭英耀政部長國民及學前教育署彭富元署長"},{"start":1865.789,"end":1872.831,"text":"體育署鄭世忠署長、清發署陳雪玉署長、國教院嚴慶祥副院長、法務部法治司陳思麗檢察官、內政部專門委員劉麗芳等、衛福部鄭淑欣副司長、"},{"start":1890.035,"end":1918.348,"text":"還有我們保護服務司的黃瑞文科長還有社家署的莊金珠視察還有我們行政院人事行政總處組的人力處的谷元寧專門委員預算處的李易柔專門委員謝謝那接下來我們就要來進行請提案的委員進行提案說明有沒有人要進行提案說明的好秀寶委員還有彭孟楷委員"},{"start":1933.016,"end":1937.879,"text":"根據我們衛福部的統計從106年到111年14歲以下以及15歲到24歲的自殺通報人數是年年攀升106年的14歲以下自殺通報人數是408人到民國"},{"start":1948.146,"end":1963.104,"text":"一百一十一年竟然攀升到兩千五百四十五人增加的幅度高達百分之六百二十三十五歲到二十四歲的自殺通報人數也從四千九百零五人攀升到一萬一千九百六十四人增加的幅度將近三倍"},{"start":1963.664,"end":1974.631,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":1986.118,"end":2001.614,"text":"具、「台灣輔導與諮商學會以及台灣諮商心理學會等充分討論,針對教育現場的需求修正使學生輔導機制能夠更加彈性化,並明定學生輔導應該以維護而造最佳利益為原則,輔導人力"},{"start":2004.793,"end":2016.019,"text":"護導學生之過程應該重視兒少的表意權本席也支持輔資中心正式化增加專輔人力的設置在教育現場常因輔導人力不足導致專輔人員必須負責的學校及學生數過多經常要奔波於各校之間也欠缺地影響學生輔導因此專輔人力補足也是本市修法的重中之重然而專輔人力的補足需要大量的預算來支持"},{"start":2031.346,"end":2052.66,"text":"所以本席希望說教育部能夠積極的向行政院這邊爭取足夠的相關經費並根據未來預算的規劃來提出院版的修正條文一起進入立法院來討論諸條審查本席非常希望這次的修正能夠完善學生輔導機制降低專輔人力的負擔溫柔的接觸每一位孩子以上謝謝"},{"start":2066.595,"end":2086.279,"text":"主席再次感謝今天特別排學生輔導法本席有提出第11條的修正其實對於學校的安全暴力偏差學生自殺跟自傷的案件逐年增加學生輔導的需求也持續增加但現行高中以下學校至專任專業輔導人員專科以上學校至專業輔導人員的數額配置標準"},{"start":2090.58,"end":2108.337,"text":"已經不符合實際的需求難以實踐我們所謂的校園輔導三級的預防措施也因此顯然有檢討跟增加專業專任的輔導人員人力的必要第一本期在這一次的學生輔導法第11條裡面有提出來因為針對本法的22條規定"},{"start":2109.878,"end":2124.532,"text":"有關於相關法令施行之後逐年增加的人力應該要由中央主管機關每5年進行檢討。至今已經超過了檢討的年份,那本來就應該要針對人力的需求來進行相關的討論。"},{"start":2125.433,"end":2140.633,"text":"netes, 現行規定高中以下的學生學校班級達55班以上配專業輔導人員,但未達55班的規模無專任專業輔導人員,恐難以實踐校安事件的三級預防措施,尤其"},{"start":2141.254,"end":2141.995,"text":"繼此,我們當然認為說這樣的一個數額比例空間有需要來做調整。最後"},{"start":2158.62,"end":2184.295,"text":"對專科以上學校輔導人力學生配置為1比1200但隨著現在當前學生遭遇的問題廣泛複雜學生求助的意識有明顯增加的趨勢我們也認為說這樣的一個比例應該要做調整再者要把專業人士以外還需要他是有專任的人力而不要有這個其他的一個事務也因此在修正本條的第五項規定"},{"start":2185.456,"end":2199.124,"text":"希望能夠規定專科以上學校學生900人以下者就能夠配置專任專業輔導人員至少一人以符合這個相關的合理數額來協助輔導。最後再強調不管是我們"},{"start":2203.287,"end":2226.602,"text":" 2024年三位總統候選人在選舉的時候都一定有做承諾尤其是賴清德總統他甚至講說要修學生輔導法落實三級輔導機制加強社會安全網我想加強社會安全網就是大家都一致要認同並且努力推動的我們也期待趕快看到行政院的版本畢竟目前到現在我們學生輔導法"},{"start":2227.242,"end":2250.129,"text":"都只有委員的版本也因此行政院以及教育部的態度我想相對重要請行政院教育部要負責任的提出相關版本以上謝謝好謝謝那我們的提案委員依序就是由陳培如委員張雅琳委員還有羅志強委員然後是陳清輝委員謝謝好接下來我們請陳培如委員"},{"start":2254.11,"end":2279.765,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要先強調所有的人數增加或者是地方學輔資中心的專制化這件事情有非常多委員在相關法案當中都有提到但是我要提到一個我們辦公室已經長期關注而且我們已經花時間跟教育部衛福部甚至跟國科會開過會討論但是一直都還沒有人願意承諾這件事情必須要在你們的主管機關底下完成也就是學生自殺的死因"},{"start":2280.285,"end":2302.863,"text":"相關的歸因非常複雜在監察院相關報告裡面監察院轉引教育部2018年到2019年校園學生自我傷害事件的分析跟防制策略報告裡面說學生自殺死亡難以單一歸因通常被通報為多重原因而每一個求學階段的學生面臨的困擾跟需要協助的資源亦有不同"},{"start":2303.323,"end":2331.021,"text":"而在衛福部去年一直到今年7月都還在繼續的心理健康支持方案裡面相關的調查報告也發現確實從15歲到30歲這個階段的學子或者是不在學籍裡面的年輕人他們在自殺這件事情上常常有非常多的困擾是需要及時被解決及時被看到的我們一直希望教育部或者是衛福部甚至是衛福部聯合教育部應該要發起一個大型的研究也就是學生的自殺這件事情"},{"start":2332.182,"end":2353.421,"text":"到底台灣有沒有一個正確的數據正確的研究不管是執行研究或是量化研究我知道衛福部過去有告訴我們你們正在進行所謂量化研究教育部也說你們在校安事件通報資料當中也會去做相關分析但是國科會的專家學者也告訴我們這個世代的大人對於這個世代數位世代的年輕人理解非常的單薄"},{"start":2354.042,"end":2355.323,"text":"二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":2382.575,"end":2407.195,"text":"關於輔導人員的專業倫理這件事情在目前我們辦公室的版本也強硬的我們非常高度的希望教育部可以承擔所謂專業倫理的規範這件事情因為過往輔導人員在學校裡面是不被重視的常常很多孩子是到了學校裡面覺得沒有辦法被管教或是沒有辦法被理解才被丟到輔導室但這一次的學輔法裡面我覺得也想要請委員們共同支持如何把專業倫理的規範跟相關尊重專業輔導人員的精神"},{"start":2410.758,"end":2412.121,"text":"一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":2426.781,"end":2452.693,"text":"主席大家好就是說這次我的提案版本啊其實我是想要強調三個面向第一個就是人力比第二個就是督導低智第三個就是兒少的最佳利益因為現在其實我們從現場可以看到非常多的大學生他們說他們可能要排這個諮商其實是要排非常非常久如果他今天如果突然有事情他要取消他重新預約談要等到三週以上"},{"start":2453.493,"end":2468.042,"text":"這是頂尖大學他們面臨的學生遇到的一個狀況那可是我們這幾年看到青少年的自殺通報人數逐年上升在校園自殺的部分跟106學年度相比11學年度的人數已經增長了將近8倍從1588件達到11663件"},{"start":2474.006,"end":2501.552,"text":"死亡117人擬所以這個如何在第一線當孩子有需要的時候我們可以提供人力來協助他緊急輔導他這個是人力上面是需要教育部還有委員們大家一起來支持所以我的版本就是將原本55班至一名專輔人力的呢調整為40班就有一任專業的輔導人力那主管機關每20校至一專輔人員的呢也變成15校"},{"start":2502.972,"end":2503.674,"text":"配置一名專賦人員。"},{"start":2505.202,"end":2533.26,"text":"大專業校從1200人降至900人來提升這個輔導人力再來就是說督導的這個機制也是希望可以來在這個版本上面可以大家來支持就是說因為各縣市落實狀況不一為了有利各縣市教育主管機關可以重視專業輔導人力的督導所以在我的版本裡面就有增加這個督導機制最後一個就是在於未成年人當事人處在人身安全受到危害的緊急狀況之下"},{"start":2534.361,"end":2544.899,"text":"但是他的法定代人他的家長可能沒有辦法為他做出兒童最佳利益的決定的時候過去可能就會讓他無法得到心理諮商跟心理治療的這個問題"},{"start":2546.365,"end":2574.768,"text":"那其實這是違反了CRC的精神所以在我的版本裡面就是有提到說如果當事人遇到他是一個處遇性輔導需求的學生經過學校召開個案會議他不需要得到法定代理人的同意就可以提供兒少相關的心理服務支持那這個部分我也是希望大家來一起支持希望大家可以一起來為學生輔導法努力讓我們可以來接觸每一個即將墜落的靈魂謝謝"},{"start":2576.284,"end":2577.585,"text":"羅志強委員可憐天下父母親誰能忍受白髮人送黑髮人我必須很沉痛地說"},{"start":2598.157,"end":2623.297,"text":"我們現在少子化,不但國人不怨聲,可是更嚴重的是青少年的自殺率以及自殺死亡率,不斷地攀升。我們自殺通報人數,我看到我們的政府官方說法,不斷地告訴大家,是因為我們鼓勵通報,所以通報數暴增、倍增、數倍增,都是因為政府鼓勵通報。那請問你怎麼交代自殺死亡率大增呢?"},{"start":2628.578,"end":2638.554,"text":"我們就拿這8年,民進黨執政這8年,從2015年到2022年我手上看到的數字,10到14歲,每10萬人自殺率從0.5上升到1.6,3倍。"},{"start":2643.854,"end":2672.143,"text":"十五到十九歲從2.8增加到5.4兩倍二十到二十四歲從8.8增加到14.9也將近兩倍我不知道是什麼緣故可以讓我們青少年的自殺死亡率短短八年之間失控啊所以今天為什麼很多委員針對今天的修法都提出看法但很抱歉我看到教育部的態度依然消極"},{"start":2673.41,"end":2697.373,"text":"本席在這邊也是因為鑒於青少年自殺死亡率急速的攀升所以要針對高級中等學校以下學生的心理輔導機制衛生完善希望能夠維護學生的身心健康所以又加上我們現在學生輔導工作為止的學生輔導法將近10年未修"},{"start":2698.354,"end":2719.514,"text":"他的法條內容跟輔導人力配置跟當前少子女化現狀顯有不符所以提出要修正學生輔導法部分條文就像我剛剛前面講的其實我們可以看到過去這八年來這些年來我們今天怎麼樣去面對"},{"start":2721.021,"end":2733.46,"text":"今天我們家長們把同學把子弟送到學校來然後面臨的這所謂的自殺死亡率暴增的問題"},{"start":2735.458,"end":2756.197,"text":"教育部、主管機關、包括衛福部對這邊都應該有更積極的一個作為,拿出做法出來所以我真的還是希望今天的修法就是一個檢視這重大我們國家危機青少年的危機的一個時刻希望我們的教育的主管機關"},{"start":2757.745,"end":2772.698,"text":"能夠用最積極的態度來面對今天我們自殺,青少年自殺死亡率暴增的這個非常非常讓大家痛心的現象。以上。好,謝謝。我們接下來請陳清輝委員。"},{"start":2779.875,"end":2799.882,"text":"大家好,各位委員官員好。非常感謝昭緯今天的排案審查,讓學生輔導法能夠獲得特別重視。過去我在這裡的公聽會曾經針對學生輔導法發言,是因為我本身的未還委員會,兒少性剝削案件帶出我們社會整個兒少安全網失靈的系統性問題。"},{"start":2801.983,"end":2816.061,"text":"本席今天非常開心看到兒少性剝削防治條例已經進入了院會協商要保護未成年兒少的受害者但在教育委員會也想要提醒大家說隨著手機"},{"start":2817.583,"end":2819.544,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":2837.056,"end":2837.196,"text":"ympt."},{"start":2837.196,"end":2846.468,"text":"本席因為有三位人在就讀國小的孩子所以常常在與家長還有其他同學的互動中深切的體會到現在家長同學們針對網路霸凌還有網路壓力等等的需求"},{"start":2854.958,"end":2869.855,"text":"所以今天我也針對學生輔導法進行提案希望能強化我們的校園三級輔導制度來回應年輕族群的心腹需求我們檢視整體校園的心腹需求就需要三級全面強化"},{"start":2870.876,"end":2898.884,"text":"所以我的提案是針對第11條的修正希望能夠強化校園內專業輔導人員的量能專輔人員是主責處遇性的輔導是安全網中最重要的後勤對於校內的輔導網路運作提升學校教師輔導專業之能以及結合社區網路都是專輔人員的重要功能是強化兒少安全網不可或缺的一環"},{"start":2899.904,"end":2919.094,"text":"所以近年來年輕族群心理需求增加面對如同性暴力事件、網路性剝削事件、複雜的心理負擔都需要更多的專輔人員來進行處遇性的輔導所以本席建議我們必須要參考世界先進國家的比例"},{"start":2919.614,"end":2938.062,"text":"美國是1比1000澳洲是1比850等等現在的1比1200顯然還有很大的改善空間希望能夠透過本次的修法來提高我們專輔人員的量能照顧這些年輕世代Z世代的心腹需求謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":2951.693,"end":2974.31,"text":"謝謝學生輔導法公告施行至今已經十多年各項問題急需透過修法回應實務現況的需求和困境因此本席提出此次學生輔導法的修法草案重點包括第一第四條當中因應社會科技快速變遷學生輔導的議題越來越多元化"},{"start":2974.85,"end":3003.722,"text":"因此修正學生輔導法第四條以強化學生輔導諮商中心的功能並且明定諮商中心應該配置行政人力以使專業人員盡可能回歸專業服務內容降低行政業務壓縮專業人員提供學生專業輔導的困境第二點在第四條之一當中為強化學生輔導諮商中心專業人才的留任意願建立正式編組"},{"start":3004.942,"end":3022.548,"text":"並定地方主管機關因逐年編列員額設置社工師、心理師為學生輔導諮商中心的專業輔導人員並優先由專業人員擔任中心主管以利學生輔導工作的專業發展。"},{"start":3024.249,"end":3045.356,"text":"第三、在第五條當中為了促進學生輔導工作的發展,調整學生輔導諮詢會,重新歸類專業人員,新增特殊教育教師,強化特輔合作之重要性,並且將學生代表納入諮詢會,以反映學生的心聲與需求。"},{"start":3046.016,"end":3070.697,"text":"第四、在第五條之一當中參酌聯合國兒童權利公約明定學生輔導應以符合兒童及少年最佳利益為原則而且輔導學生的過程亦應特別重視關注兒童及少年在表達意見身心健康、身份認同、家庭維繫、保護與安全等各項需求"},{"start":3071.437,"end":3100.797,"text":"第五點在第六條當中修正三級輔導內容強調應著重於學生行為與問題樣態而非僅依時間順序進行以利彈性調整並及時提供適切的輔導協助第六點在第十一條當中參考學校衛生法調整高中以下學校專任專業輔導人員的配置班級數達40班以上者應至少"},{"start":3101.377,"end":3114.123,"text":"配置專任專輔人員一名並調整主管機關所轄學校數與專輔人員比例以增加專輔人力,調整大專院校專業輔導人員的師生比,"},{"start":3116.804,"end":3137.572,"text":"期望由現行的1比1200調整為1比900。第七點,在第12條當中,為明確各級學校教師、輔導教師與專業輔導人員與三級輔導工作之全責分工,增訂由中央主管機關、會商、地方主管機關定定相關辦法。"},{"start":3138.852,"end":3164.975,"text":"一例第一線教育工作者有所依循參著國民教育法、高級中等教育法以及特殊教育法建立再申訴機制。眾上所述期盼能夠透過強化學生輔導機制充實學校輔導人力提升輔導工作品質以更加保障與促進學生身心健全發展以上謝謝"},{"start":3166.385,"end":3170.388,"text":"謝謝,那我們接下來請范雲委員,然後最後我們請萬美玲委員,謝謝。謝謝昭緯,我想從上一屆我擔任立委以來,那在2020年底,我就率先召開高中以下學生輔導體制檢討的公聽會。那當時呢,也在檢討至於要求要提學服法的修法,那很高興就是過了這四年,那我們終於有機會處理這個部分。"},{"start":3195.783,"end":3217.957,"text":"那針對大專院校的部分我也要講就是當時我是透過質詢臨時提案預算案要求要檢討大專院校心腹資源不足的問題那也謝謝跟肯定教育部率先有落實大專的部分1比900那2022年的時候那我受邀參與我們諮商三會主辦的學生輔導法修法公聽會"},{"start":3218.797,"end":3221.879,"text":"adequate to the new law, we have a new law for students."},{"start":3221.879,"end":3223.7,"text":"We have a new law for students."},{"start":3249.04,"end":3250.37,"text":"時間的關係我就講五大重點。"},{"start":3251.448,"end":3278.815,"text":"第一個就是輔資中心應該要統一各縣市的這個業務有統籌各地方專輔的人力而且要強化能夠提供主義性輔導的功能第二個學生輔資中心應該要正式化那中心主管應該要由專輔人員擔任第三當然就是大家都講到的比例的問題全面提升專任輔導教師跟專輔人員比例讓高中以下的學生獲得足夠的新輔知識"},{"start":3279.815,"end":3280.095,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞ ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":3303.038,"end":3314.399,"text":"應該要列入,待會還有時間再把細節做申訴。以上希望教育部的版本我們能夠一起達成這幾項目標,謝謝。好,謝謝范委員。接下來我們請萬美玲委員。"},{"start":3319.341,"end":3320.342,"text":"學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":3338.372,"end":3367.544,"text":"五十五班以上的學校竟然只有316校占8%而已也就是說可以達到現行五十五班可以有一個專輔人員的數據竟然只有8%剩下的92%其實是沒有辦法達到這個標準的喔那你看四十五班到五十四班占6%三十班到四十四班15%也就是說在本席所提案的這個學生輔導法第11條希望把五十五班降低到30%用30%這個地方來做一個標準竟然都還有7乘1可能達不到"},{"start":3368.625,"end":3380.534,"text":"此問題在這個數字上看起來非常嚴重所以我們希望下修從55班下修到30班至少能夠設一名專輔人員來符合現在教育現場的現況減少目前我們專輔人力的負擔跟壓力"},{"start":3385.317,"end":3394.626,"text":"adequate to the case of suicide and suicide cases, the Ministry of Education has also calculated and mastered the number of suicides and suicide cases per year."},{"start":3394.626,"end":3399.27,"text":"The number of suicides and suicide cases per year."},{"start":3399.27,"end":3402.934,"text":"The number of suicides and suicide cases per year."},{"start":3402.934,"end":3405.256,"text":"The number of suicides and suicide cases per year."},{"start":3405.256,"end":3409.12,"text":"The number of suicides and suicide cases per year."},{"start":3409.48,"end":3409.86,"text":" ﹝審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 ﹞"},{"start":3433.912,"end":3439.053,"text":"adequate to the current student輔導法第6條,我想我們在這個三級輔導機制上面的這個修法我們過去說要從發展進入到儲育一階段一階段來做可是不好意思我想教一步大家在這裡"},{"start":3457.278,"end":3478.712,"text":""},{"start":3478.832,"end":3479.132,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3496.493,"end":3496.653,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":3520.889,"end":3522.791,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生大家好。"},{"start":3542.711,"end":3566.412,"text":"非常感謝各位委員長期對學生輔導工作的推動與發展的一個關心我想首先除了感謝以外也敬請我們各位委員繼續可以教育部支持跟指正那麼大家所關心的學生輔導法從103年公佈其中第22條就明文規定第10條及第11條有關專任輔導老師及專任"},{"start":3571.124,"end":3572.024,"text":"等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬等19人擬"},{"start":3594.874,"end":3612.44,"text":"這個現場實務工作人員、輔導團體學會相關的一些代表以及地方政府召開多次的焦點團體會議及諮商會議,就調整方向向各界徵詢意見。那麼本次除就有關專任專業輔導人員之配置規定進行檢討言議外,也同時針對其他推動輔導工作所需要調整之"},{"start":3622.162,"end":3622.882,"text":"：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":3639.289,"end":3660.023,"text":"擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案 條文修正"},{"start":3668.601,"end":3697.421,"text":"擬具張雅琳等19人擬具委員黃秀芳等18人擬具委員柯志恩等18人擬具委員陳培宇等18人擬具委員陳秀寶等20人擬具委員葛如今等16人擬具委員郭文等19人擬具委員羅志強等16人擬具委員林秀琴等19人擬具委員林秀琴等19人擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案有關委員所提少年矯正學校納入適用擬具委員郭文等19人擬具委員羅志強等16人擬具委員林秀琴等19人擬具學生輔導法部分條文修正草案有關委員所提少年矯正學"},{"start":3698.101,"end":3702.665,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案〉"},{"start":3720.582,"end":3748.562,"text":"專任輔導教師及專業輔導人員增訂教師與輔導教師及專業輔導人員分工規定,調整職權訓練及在職進修時數等。教育部回覆說明如下。一、法務部更正克正原意少年矯正學校除役實施條例草案,是否納入適用尊重法務部評估意見。第二、"},{"start":3749.994,"end":3759.267,"text":"府資中心建制規劃事項,各地存在差異,未來已由中央會商地方政府定資,主管由專業輔導人員擔任,並授權訂定督導設置基準及資格。"},{"start":3765.623,"end":3782.641,"text":"府之中心正式化,除中央行政機關組織基準法規定,不得以作用法規定機關之組之外,依地方制度法規定組織編制,亦屬地方自治權責。五、為落實聯合國兒童權利公約,當學生輔導涉及不同"},{"start":3787.694,"end":3810.101,"text":"主體權力衝突時應符合兒少最佳利益輔導執行會以增列學生代表並增加特教教師代表以服務學生需求。第五、學校應以全員輔導模式動員校園心理健康促進。學校人員均負有輔導學生之責任且三級輔導的連結"},{"start":3812.332,"end":3840.032,"text":"因著重於學生行為與問題樣態,而非輔導順序,及時與及時轉介,及早採取合宜措施。六、持續推動學校輔導教師人力,增補作業,國中於114年度完成,國小則從原先的120學年度完成配置提前到116學年度完成。"},{"start":3841.792,"end":3859.698,"text":"此未來將以總學生數為核算基準政治人力並由主管機關統籌調派大專校院專業輔導人力以符合學生輔導法的規定當然隨著學生的一個需求的增加也以適度的一個提升增加"},{"start":3860.796,"end":3878.134,"text":"第八、教師輔導老師及專業輔導人員之分工、學校單位之行政資源需更明確規範,並使執行更周延。九、各主管機關及學校應加強辦理在職進修,以多元方式辦理,並聘請具專業素養。"},{"start":3880.737,"end":3905.414,"text":"或實務經驗者講授時中上感謝委員對完善學生輔導體系等議題之關心所提修正條文教育部予以尊重也持續會跟地方政府及學校收集意見我們積極朝向完善學生三級輔導機制來做努力其次有關委員李柏毅等18人"},{"start":3907.031,"end":3913.921,"text":"委員許志杰等20人擬委員陳培宇等18人擬委員侯孟楷等22人擬委員"},{"start":3915.925,"end":3941.997,"text":"國益勤等19人擬具委員郭國榮等19人擬具委員吳佩玉等16人擬具委員王玉敏等20人擬具委員萬美玲等19人擬具委員陳金輝等20人擬具委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具學生輔導法第11條條文修正草案有關委員提案增加各級學校專業輔導人員教育部說明如下。"},{"start":3942.697,"end":3951.108,"text":"一、未來將以總學生數為核算基準,增至人力並且由主管機關統籌條派"},{"start":3953.592,"end":3974.923,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3975.023,"end":3992.695,"text":"端質化以提升學生輔導品質與效能,促進及維護學生身心健康及全能發展來努力。感謝委員的指正,那麼其他的也請委員來參考書面的資料。再次感謝各位委員的指正,謝謝大家,謝謝。"},{"start":3993.7,"end":4012.623,"text":"好 我們謝謝鄭部長的口頭報告那我們現在就來進行詢答我們由於我們在未來會有逐條更讓委員可以發揮的一個空間所以本期裁定這一次我們的質詢是6分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘列席的委員質詢的時間是4分鐘那發言截止登記的時間是上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分來提出並且在本委員"},{"start":4022.965,"end":4035.61,"text":"會議的吳村城委員質詢結束之後,我們就立即進行處理。處理提案的時候,若提案委員還有聯署委員均不在場,我們原例就不予處理。我們現在首先請發言登記第一位的侯孟楷委員質詢。"},{"start":4049.261,"end":4072.848,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請鄭部長跟我們體育署鄭署長。好,我先請教一下鄭署長好不好,因為我想很多廣大籃球迷很關心,就是上禮拜一個重量的消息,說我們現在的這個籃球職業聯盟,沒關係,這個先簡報先不用。"},{"start":4075.528,"end":4097.014,"text":"兩個聯盟一個T一個P由王文強董事長他又出來先宣布說要成立新聯盟但是又有人講是說他這個新聯盟可能是另外一個聯盟或第三聯盟好像又不是T跟P的一個合併所以我們也看到說藍協也跳出來講話說不在規劃之中如果說是要成立新聯盟或是第三聯盟不在規劃之中"},{"start":4098.554,"end":4123.768,"text":"讓很多的球迷會霧裡看花是說到底現在就我們體育署主管機關的一個瞭解現在籃球的這個職業運動他們的一個整合的方向會是變成大家比較期待的是說兩大聯盟變成一個聯盟可能之後所有的球隊加入一個聯盟共同的一個比賽還是說有可能一樣有踢一樣有劈但是又要再成立另外第三個聯盟"},{"start":4125.396,"end":4141.029,"text":"數長報告委員原則上體育所態度當然是尊重他們職業我有看到您發表是說祝福跟尊重那據我自己有去詢問了解應該也不是T跟P的"},{"start":4144.391,"end":4169.382,"text":"而是直接就一個新的聯盟但是原來的T跟P可能就沒有了所以就是這九隊加一個外國隊成立一個全新的聯盟但我們怎麼又看到新聞又T聯盟他也跳出來講說不受影響所以選秀還會持續進行那這樣子本身不禁會好奇或說球迷會擔心這會不會就變成是一個比較惡性的競爭"},{"start":4170.783,"end":4196.951,"text":"包括委員因為第一個藍鞋本身我詢問了他們原則上是維持中立他們只是不希望看到說有三個聯盟同時存在那這部分新的聯盟王文翔董事長他這邊據我所知他們跟其他就是總的九隊的國內的籃球隊他們目前正在規劃成立一個全新的聯盟但是目前的資訊也只有這樣"},{"start":4197.651,"end":4208.439,"text":"他們是希望今年這接下來幾個月賽季結束之後可以加快角度去做規劃所以署長你現在得到的資訊跟本席以及所有球迷都一樣也是看報紙才知道"},{"start":4210.577,"end":4232.153,"text":"這之間當然有他們的互相的角力啦但是這部分原來上我還是尊重他們自己的規劃職業運動可能他有商業考量本席不否認因為這個牽扯的利益或說球迷的這個市場多寡相互這個本席尊重商業的機制但是不免讓我想到我這個看棒球看了30幾年啊"},{"start":4233.234,"end":4261.656,"text":"以前中華職棒跟台灣大聯盟也有曾經有過這個分裂而造成說10個球隊但是到最後變成是兩邊的球迷數都萎縮而到最後還是合併成一個聯盟之後才又慢慢的再靠上國際賽的一些表現球迷在回流所以既然我們已經P聯盟已經4年T聯盟已經3年了那也養成了一些球迷我想球迷是最無辜的"},{"start":4262.136,"end":4277.324,"text":"而身為中央主管機關不管說你有沒有去做一個你是說尊重你是說祝福但是總是我們不希望到最後變成是說三個聯盟然後變成是鴻海市場惡性競爭這樣對於球迷第一可能會感到失望"},{"start":4278.184,"end":4280.465,"text":"厲二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":4293.45,"end":4321.823,"text":"所以我在對外聲明也講到提醒如果新的聯盟成立他們第一個當然第一個球員的權益一定要顧到也要持續跟職業工會這邊做良好的互動但我想我這邊還是有持續在了解跟他們對話啦所以我想你應該跟本席一樣不樂見台灣到最後變成是P、T然後三個聯盟然後可能各自球隊少少的然後球迷可能也不知道說到底要怎麼樣去為自己原本的球隊加油或是新的球隊"},{"start":4322.383,"end":4345.579,"text":"包括委員我覺得他們也不會這樣做啦因為他們就真的在商言商他們這樣做應該也不是這麼的市長有更積極的作為嗎我有再找他們在個別在談論當中謝謝個別談論當中有沒有可能我們體育署變成是一個公清的平台找這一些聯盟的負責或者是說相關他們到底有沒有機會坐下來好好的談一談"},{"start":4346.44,"end":4373.339,"text":"這部分的確是有,他們當然過去這一個星期我有致電給聯盟的這些執行長當然他們也有各別的人你說P聯盟、T聯盟你都有致電對,他們也有打電話來告訴我目前的現況但是我是覺得可能還要給他們一點點時間我再來召開一個平台來做一個保障球員的權益保障球迷的權利讓整個籃球的市場變大而不是惡性的競爭我想這是我們的重點好不好來"},{"start":4374.079,"end":4391.748,"text":"主席,今天學生輔導法很重要啦。賴清德總統他之前選前也承諾說要加強三級的輔導。那我想請教行政院版本到底現在在哪邊?應該是已經送行政院了嘛。那什麼時候行政院版本能夠出來?就我們教育部的版本。"},{"start":4393.064,"end":4405.221,"text":"跟委員報告我們確實現在在努力把我們內部所規劃的報行政院希望能夠排上明天的這個宴會明天的宴會現在是不是已經確認了明天宴會就可以出來"},{"start":4409.81,"end":4410.93,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":4434.588,"end":4435.449,"text":"教育部曾表示"},{"start":4449.747,"end":4466.179,"text":" ﹗未來希望最終的目標是所有公司立高中以下的學校每校都可以有專任的輔導教師在一班級數來增置所以換言之當時通過學生輔導法其實希望是全每校都有"},{"start":4466.719,"end":4486.414,"text":"只是說有些大校的話我可以多一點人力而不是像現在這個只依照班級數來分配我們現在講說如果這樣的話全國是要有8000多位的專任輔導教師現行我們的專任輔導教師其實只有3000多位所以換言之我們還有5000多位的一個空間"},{"start":4487.517,"end":4487.877,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":4505.916,"end":4525.911,"text":"跟委員報告,我們確實也朝委員剛才所提的一個方向,都是納入我們這一次的一個修正的一個參考。怎麼樣按照學校的規模又能夠考慮到區域上的一些特殊性,除了學校能夠"},{"start":4526.892,"end":4532.016,"text":"一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":4557.449,"end":4558.53,"text":"林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":4571.414,"end":4572.094,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":4593.099,"end":4615.592,"text":"大概大部分是由部裡邊來編列這個經會但怎麼樣考慮到地方的一個特殊性地方就地方教育的一個輔導工作他地方也有一些所以我確認是說增加的這個如果說我們現在修法而增加的輔導老師的一個預算的部分是由中央教育部這邊來指引"},{"start":4616.613,"end":4617.393,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":4633.679,"end":4633.699,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":4649.132,"end":4662.416,"text":"我們照著委員所提的在降低目標院板出來之後我們在主條的時候才會去針對說你們編列的預算夠不夠然後委員如果說要再增加的話有沒有這樣的一個額度而不是說你現在還在講說你還在精算部長"},{"start":4665.253,"end":4687.833,"text":"你這樣的回答我坦白講我覺得您還沒有到很深入了解不過沒關係我們之後逐條之後再來但本席只期待真的之後補足相關的輔導老師的能力而且是專任專任這一點非常重要因為有太多的學校跟本席要反映以及老師也跟本席要反映是說有多出很多跟無關諮詢服務專業的行政業務也會變成"},{"start":4691.036,"end":4692.176,"text":"一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":4720.708,"end":4721.288,"text":"五十五班的現在只有佔8%。"},{"start":4745.545,"end":4755.251,"text":"則是說有92%的學校現在不符合我們可以去設置專任的這個輔導人力那即便按照本期這次在修第11條那我們要把它降到30班還有7成多還有7成1也沒有辦法達到就是剛才我們提到的"},{"start":4761.934,"end":4783.127,"text":"每一校都可以去設置專輔人力那部長剛剛本席在聽您報告的時候聽到您講說這一次我們院板在明天會出來嘛 對不對那相信這也是不理送上去的那剛剛您有報告到說我們這一次的修法在教育部的立場是用這個總學生數為基礎來做一個修訂能不能說明一下怎麼個總學生數為基礎的修訂法"},{"start":4785.148,"end":4806.546,"text":"我們目前就回應委員跟我們這個專業團體所關心的我們大概也找出了一個相對的一個適合的模式大概就是各縣市裡邊有等於說20校以上我們會再額外增加一位專任的輔導老師沒有輔導不好意思喔我打斷一下這個可能不是我的問題對不對"},{"start":4807.947,"end":4812.992,"text":"另外就是各縣市裡邊我們當然也算了一下大概4500位到5000的學生我們也會去增加這個學生的一個增加這個專業輔導專輔人力所以部長您的意思是說現在會用4500到5000人去增加一個專輔的人力而不是以班為單位是這樣的意思嗎?"},{"start":4831.428,"end":4831.808,"text":"adequ."},{"start":4831.808,"end":4832.468,"text":"審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":4848.536,"end":4849.537,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等15人擬。五、審查委員林宜瑾等15人擬"},{"start":4875.998,"end":4897.619,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":4897.739,"end":4904.262,"text":"但是這邊有幾個跟部長這邊來討論一下今天我們在講專輔人力為什麼專輔人力那麼重要剛剛也提到三級輔導三級輔導是發展介入跟儲育在發展介入的時候學校有學校的導師或者是我們輔導可以來做到了這個儲育的時候我們非常需要專輔人力我們要講"},{"start":4921.368,"end":4944.385,"text":"學校是一個教育單位我們應該要在教育單位裡面就要把這些預防如果就能夠把它做好來那要把預防能夠做好來我們就是輔導人力要增加這一點這個邏輯是非常清楚的部長最重要在本席後面要講當我們在學校的部分把輔導人力增加了你看似現在要增加了一些經費那你覺得這個經費有負擔可是您知道嗎如果我們把學生的現場的輔導做好"},{"start":4945.586,"end":4946.307,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":4961.681,"end":4978.08,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":4978.22,"end":4978.24,"text":"閱讀者"},{"start":4997.543,"end":5019.4,"text":"我今天再跟你提一下除了我們學生的自傷跟自殺的這個數字不斷在提高我們要去了解原因之外學校的專輔人力還要做什麼我們現在有這個校園三害部長知道是哪三害嗎我們現在最關心的你告訴我校園三害哪三害就校園霸凌然後這個毒品還有黑幫100分"},{"start":5027.894,"end":5028.115,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":5042.834,"end":5068.125,"text":"嚇死人了,成長到2502件這個成長了3.3倍之多而且這個是我們登記有案的那還有那個就是沒有去通報的那再來網路霸凌那個也非常的嚴重網路霸凌我甚至於覺得我們現在按照董事基金會的這個調查他說全台有2.5%的青少年曾經遇到網路霸凌那而且還有18.8%的青少年曾經因為等等出現了自傷的一個這個企圖啊"},{"start":5070.747,"end":5082.917,"text":"網絡霸凌的調查其實不是那麼好收集所以這個數據我認為還要更高一些所以網絡霸凌現在部長知道我們如果發生了網絡霸凌我們的處理的這個原則是什麼要怎麼處理我想網絡霸凌它確實是一個學校的處理原則是什麼我是不是能夠請好 署長來說明好了還是司長"},{"start":5100.268,"end":5110.834,"text":"現在我們有一個反霸凌的整體的簡化方案一是霸凌專線簡化二是整體的接聽我們有專人二第三是24小時來專人服務"},{"start":5116.014,"end":5134.364,"text":"議長,我覺得有做任何的動作都是好的。但是呢,如果我們只是靠電話接聽這種事情,沒有溫度啊。你知道被霸凌的孩子,其實他那個受創傷非常的大。那他要決定要不要去找人幫忙他的時候,他要經過很多的掙扎。所以呢,設置這麼多通報的網路也好啦,還是專線也好。"},{"start":5135.345,"end":5136.125,"text":"等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":5157.253,"end":5157.613,"text":" ﹝審查委員李柏毅等19人擬具 ﹞"},{"start":5180.111,"end":5196.271,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5196.271,"end":5211.476,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5211.476,"end":5231.834,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5231.934,"end":5240.177,"text":" proporting the topic, you just mentioned that you have reached 100 points, about bullying, drugs and gangsters, as well as about our children's suicide and self-harm."},{"start":5240.177,"end":5248.219,"text":"All of these are in schools, and now the children are exposed to too many messages, so we really need to increase the human resources."},{"start":5248.219,"end":5248.84,"text":"And now,"},{"start":5249.94,"end":5251.101,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":5266.733,"end":5266.753,"text":" ﹝討論中﹞"},{"start":5290.042,"end":5303.389,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,我的心情跟我們努力的目標跟委員是一樣的。謝謝委員的提醒,謝謝。那我們就一起加油,謝謝。好,我們謝謝部長,謝謝萬美玲委員。接下來我們請范雲委員。謝謝召委,有請部長。好,部長。"},{"start":5321.022,"end":5343.496,"text":"部長早安,這邊是要給部長看一下這個照片就是我剛剛講2020年我跟賴平委員我們率先共同召開這個公聽會然後啟動學服法修法那當時這個PO文都已經現在看起來都是已經差不多已經三、四年前的事情了那所以呢教育部的動作那真的可以更快一點"},{"start":5344.156,"end":5371.571,"text":"我們就直接回來對話這次的DRIVE的版本跟院版跟大家的期待想請問部長因為我們第一個訴求剛有講到就是覺得應該要優先任用輔導的專業主管那這邊是社工師群聯會的建議版本我想問部長目前輔資中心它的主管是專輔人員的比例部長知不知道比例是多少"},{"start":5373.132,"end":5386.769,"text":"目前有9個縣市,全國有22個縣市裡面有9個縣市是這一個由專輔人員來擔任這一個輔資中心的一個所以這樣算起來比例是多少?"},{"start":5388.356,"end":5389.637,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":5418.714,"end":5437.308,"text":"應該還是因為他畢竟是要統籌這麼重要的單位還是應該要由專業人力擔任主管那不知道部長覺得這是不是我們這一次就可以達到這件事我想非常謝謝委員的關心確實我們這一次的一個修法也是朝著這個方向在努力"},{"start":5438.208,"end":5439.189,"text":"關於輔導措施,專業團體也主張輔資學會的修訂條文"},{"start":5459.048,"end":5461.509,"text":"議由等19人擬議由等19人擬議由等19人擬議由等19人擬議由等19人擬議由等19人擬議由等19人擬議由等19人擬議由等19人擬議由等19人擬"},{"start":5488.28,"end":5508.638,"text":"是的,我想輔導是主任由這一個專業人員來擔任,專業的這一個老師來擔任,我想那是我們都是朝那一個方向努力。但是確實小學有一些規模比較小,它的主任的一個後用不一定有這一個專業,但是那個目標是我們努力的。"},{"start":5509.218,"end":5537.656,"text":"那關於行政職他如果擔任的話行政職由專業人員擔任的話能不能夠補足員額這個部分呢要不然他就變得工作量更大了因為本來是他有他原本的工作我想這一個裡面他是分離的啦分離的那教育部可不可以去考慮一下能不能夠補足員額呢那輔導老師是屬於輔導老師這裡邊應該是不衝突的那這部分你們去了解一下好不好因為這部分我們理論上應該要補足啦"},{"start":5537.796,"end":5538.236,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":5560.949,"end":5582.234,"text":"現行條文及教育部一一二年抱怨版條文有幾個部分大家還是有不同的意見第一個你們原來一一二年抱怨版本刪除了大校助校的人力因為原本是有一定的班數要設我有問一下原因你們是說這樣會有一個"},{"start":5583.214,"end":5587.576,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":5606.795,"end":5635.496,"text":"就是你們的增訂版是1比4500到1比5000就變得不進反退新法如果是以112年報院版的話只有保下限欸所以部長不知道這個部分就是如果只有保下限的話那不是就不升反減嗎沒有規劃提升那部長對於這個部分的回應是什麼因為這個是您還沒來當部長的時候我們看的是上一次的那個送院版"},{"start":5636.753,"end":5656.687,"text":"您當部長之後是不是您也是心理方面的大家的期待更高部長是不是可以改善一下我想這個我們來努力努力好不好就要聽您的努力因為我們對您期待很高就是不一定要跟上一屆一樣那另外就是我的版本是這樣你們請參考就是原本那個55我們降為40班那原本的那個20校我這邊是寫15校"},{"start":5665.433,"end":5667.514,"text":"最後一個,要提升,我也聽到很驚訝,輔導年資在卸任後,他如果去當督導,那回來之後居然年資不被採記,還被降職,那這樣誰要去當督導?"},{"start":5688.044,"end":5713.451,"text":"所以是不是能夠解決這個問題就輔導的年資在卸任後不被採記的問題這個表有點複雜那部長可以請是學特斯去研究一下是不是應該透過職務加緊的方式支持接任主任督導之專輔人員就是說沒有這種當督導然後年資不被採記回去之後還停在就是第三年他其實已經去當別的了"},{"start":5714.782,"end":5736.749,"text":"部長可以了解一下嗎?這個部分應該不是在法條中但是你們會有相關的辦法好不好?也去了解一下我們一起反應最後一個就是也跟教育部溝通過就是自我傷害要納主動輔導不要放在等其他事項當中啦因為這個事情大家都關心這個自殺自傷的問題那是不是就應該明確保障讓他能夠優先被面對被照顧好不好?"},{"start":5744.311,"end":5750.974,"text":"謝謝委員我想有很多的委員跟委員的看法是一致的那麼怎麼樣把這個自我傷害能夠納入到這一個法條裡邊我想我們也會認真來考量那謝謝部長的肯定喔那因為我還沒看到你們通過的願板喔那希望"},{"start":5761.178,"end":5761.358,"text":"議員主席議員主席"},{"start":5787.858,"end":5789.499,"text":"謝謝范雲委員、謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝司長。接下來有請柯志恩委員,謝謝。好,非常謝謝主席。我們現在請政務部長。有請部長,謝謝。"},{"start":5820.236,"end":5844.769,"text":"委員長部長好我覺得我身為我們同樣都是在教育現場工作的非常久我覺得我身為第一線助人工作者的老師我今天正在這邊實在是感慨非常的多我想我們大家都說一個文明的國家應該非常重視學生的一個心理健康可是呢我們看看過去歷年來這麼久以來我們永遠所有的修法都是在悲劇之後你看看"},{"start":5846.61,"end":5847.61,"text":" ﹝審查委員李柏毅等19人擬具 ﹝審查委員李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":5866.536,"end":5887.562,"text":"所以你看現在來說的話所以我今天站在這個地方我看到歷屆裡面的修法都是因為一個重大事件發生之後所以今天為什麼學生輔導法這麼重要就是我們希望能夠防堵未然這是一個我們彼此共同應該都有的一個共識可是你看看我們現在校園我很快的幫部長overview一下從2018到2022五年增加2.5倍"},{"start":5892.463,"end":5898.171,"text":"adequate to high school grades, high school grades, high school grades, high school grades, high school grades."},{"start":5908.504,"end":5911.865,"text":"那你更不要說各級學校在全國的自傷的案件來說的話從2016到2020可以說是暴增的7.3倍這些數字只是讓我們了解為什麼這部法是這麼樣的迫切的需要那我當然也要肯定我們所有站在第一線的助人工作者你會發現他其他的年齡層逐漸下降但是呢我們所關切的15歲到24歲"},{"start":5935.054,"end":5944.479,"text":"他的自殺死亡率近10年來可以說大幅的攀升,增幅是到7乘8。那我們再看看下面這一張,讓我覺得這更驚訝的是,國小。國小的自殺的通報數字,從過去的114年到現在的1183。部長,這是國小。"},{"start":5956.566,"end":5978.146,"text":"國小的過程五年來增長了將近十倍我特別直指國小的學生那國中、高中、大專都是一樣這不是說鼓勵大家勇敢地爆出這些數字而是它背後所涵蓋的一個意涵然後呢我們再往下所以你看它的智商通報數字逐年增加我們再往下面來去看而且剛剛已經有委員提到了這個12到17歲還有我們所關切的"},{"start":5982.95,"end":5998.421,"text":"十五、二十四、十五到二十四我們曾經核實我們死亡率當中竟然自殺是高居第二位自殺高居第二位是在我們十二到十七所以交通意外當然是最多自殺竟然是第二位所以這種"},{"start":5999.221,"end":6001.182,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案〉案〉"},{"start":6027.581,"end":6035.927,"text":"還好明天終於已經車開到了行政院了好不好這個讓我們也等太久了那到底我們要做什麼樣的一個事情呢我們接下來去看當然我們當初非常的自豪說我們學校的輔導三級機制是亞洲裡面非常先進的我也很肯定這樣的一個需求但是它還是有很多的問題存在嘛部長我們現在一一來去看那我現在先請問一下"},{"start":6051.477,"end":6052.357,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":6069.09,"end":6082.661,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個指正,因為確實我們這一次也理解到我們整個社會大眾,包括從這個家長...沒關係你先告訴我,不然我們都了解條文差別在哪裡。我想在第10條裡面,到第10..."},{"start":6085.043,"end":6111.317,"text":"十一條委員所關心的大概幾個專業輔導老師專業輔導人員包括地方的一個規範包括兒童與少年其實部長差別根本就沒有根本沒什麼差別你們浪費了一年多的時間根本條文上沒有差別你把它對照過來這是讓本席覺得最不可思議的一件事情大家都認為要跟地方政府去溝通也知道你們在增加學府人力的這部分裡面所遭遇的問題"},{"start":6111.897,"end":6122.964,"text":"但是從去年到今年根本就沒什麼差別我們卡的地方還是在第四條第十條跟第十一條就是有關於這個學府中心的一個任務還有包括編制還有包括專任的輔導人員這就是差別還是很難達成一個共識那既然很難達成一個共識你就早早送出來我們其實該在這個過程裡面可以透過逐條的審視當中來不用等那麼久嘛所以我們一一來去看"},{"start":6140.214,"end":6141.795,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案。"},{"start":6170.334,"end":6172.115,"text":"第三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬第二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬第三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":6189.907,"end":6190.447,"text":" ﹝審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 ﹞"},{"start":6218.112,"end":6218.553,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":6240.555,"end":6250.56,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草"},{"start":6267.068,"end":6267.328,"text":"五、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":6288.251,"end":6314.604,"text":"但是你在裡面所認為目前我們要法制化的這個學資中心或叫輔資中心它的起薪就是只有4萬4他足足比純粹你看第二部分的裡面專訪就少了1萬塊Bang Bang Xi我們訓練出來的學生你看差距這麼多我們再往下來看再給我一分鐘的時間還有目前帶領一個專業的單位剛剛范雲委員還有很多委員都特別提出來了你看他們這些"},{"start":6315.945,"end":6318.167,"text":"兩年就要去當校長了還有很多是校長還有很多是非專業人員你看看這些人又再一次的"},{"start":6333.683,"end":6334.203,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":6359.502,"end":6360.843,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":6381.576,"end":6381.916,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6398.149,"end":6398.91,"text":"adequate question."},{"start":6428.029,"end":6429.049,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6445.194,"end":6450.775,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。netesi, 你看你們現在總人數除以基數應該我們需要的人力是702到800。我們現在就已經是比你們這個部分,你們現在越改會計根本就基本款都沒有。所以呢,我們真的很符合,非常努力的符合,而且有憑有據根據學校衛生法裡面,我們很希望還是能夠40班大校15校裡面,我們希望2400人就可以額外多聘一個專輔人員。我覺得這才是一個"},{"start":6474.761,"end":6475.041,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":6493.188,"end":6494.809,"text":"接下來有請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":6535.762,"end":6536.885,"text":"好,謝昭偉,有請部長。請部長。"},{"start":6545.994,"end":6568.193,"text":"議長好,首先先感謝部長還有我們國教署的彭署長以及我們潘文忠前部長在週一合訂的6月24號合訂我這個夜光天使點燈計畫延伸國中夜間以及我們的國小寒暑假的事辦計畫本期希望這個一年的事辦時間未來能夠成為正式的一個計畫還可以擴大區域辦理給這些弱勢家庭"},{"start":6568.814,"end":6571.935,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":6594.565,"end":6617.858,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6617.958,"end":6629.88,"text":"擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":6645.623,"end":6658.01,"text":"教育部目前對於自殺防治相關的作為有沒有具體的成效青少年的自殺以及自殺人數一直在上升根本的原因是什麼?有沒有掌握?"},{"start":6660.16,"end":6682.578,"text":"確實這一個剛才陳委員所關心的也有許多委員也同時關心這個議題自殺的一個從相關的學術上的一些研究或者政務部門研究要歸為單一的因素確實是比較困難那當然它有許多時候來自於人際之間來自於同儕的一個壓力那一個變成"},{"start":6685.981,"end":6689.042,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":6705.646,"end":6705.926,"text":"議員,我們相信,"},{"start":6720.265,"end":6721.907,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":6743.1,"end":6743.761,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":6753.456,"end":6774.041,"text":"當然也對社會對學校教育的期待當然是高的。老師也相對會面臨更大的一些挑戰。但不管怎麼樣,學校如何提供一個更專業的一個支持的系統,透過一個跨部會的合作,我想那都是我們教育部要積極來努力的。"},{"start":6774.921,"end":6795.417,"text":"我還是要講喔,剛剛其實召委就有講過,監察院的報告裡面就有講,七成的孩子是沒有被接住的,沒有被輔導的。所以學校端在一開始就沒有辦法接住他們。所以先行的輔導機制分為三級,剛剛有講過,一、二級呢是所謂的學校老師以及輔導專任老師,可是一、二級我們就會面臨最重要的一個問題,就是校長。"},{"start":6796.505,"end":6821.675,"text":"校長的態度,校長重不重視輔導工作不重視的話輔導老師很難做啊第三級面對的問題更廣輔導的責任大多是任務編組、流動率高剛剛也說了轉職離職的機率高各縣市做法不一樣再來提到人力我們知道專業的人力不足師生比要再調整要怎麼彌補這些人力部長有沒有去特別去了解教育現場的一個狀況專業諮詢人員不足的原因是什麼我想"},{"start":6822.375,"end":6847.834,"text":"人力不足跟勞動條件很有關係絕大多數都是跳槽一年聘的問題無法累積年資跳槽之後年資、薪資又要重新開始計算加上大專院校的心理諮商師來源往往錯綜複雜可能是校務基金校方自籌教育部或者其他部會的專案東湊西湊的給他們這樣子還要跑公文寫計畫書做核銷這樣子聽起來我都覺得非常的困難"},{"start":6848.635,"end":6867.935,"text":"但是相反的外面的諮商所越開越多我們去看一下相關的資料可以看到去年年初有將近3000人比起10多年前只有800人今年還會再有所突破所以請問部長剛剛我們看到薪水你知道起薪大概多少前一個委員稍微又講大概4萬4左右"},{"start":6868.656,"end":6885.837,"text":"對那我想如果今天你是這一個所謂的專輔人員你去外面執業薪水可能上看到10萬請問如果部長是你你要選擇麵包還是選擇理想我想理想跟麵包如果能夠兼得但當然大家都想要可是現在面臨就是小老百姓沒辦法"},{"start":6886.337,"end":6886.497,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":6911.44,"end":6925.431,"text":"讓輔導人力能夠從他專業他做專業的事然後他的薪資包括怎麼樣調整人力能夠關照到這一個第一線上的一些教育品質包括學生的這個需求我想那都是我們努力的目標"},{"start":6926.132,"end":6949.503,"text":"我想幸福法我們等很久我們需要我們也要接住孩子已經等了這麼多年了那看到每年的這個報告每個孩子每一天的流失都有可能造成一個孩子的傷亡所以我們要趕快來成立趕快接住他們我想未來有一個具體的方案如果財源的編列突破人力的短缺相關的這些能夠留住優秀的專輔人員我希望能夠有趕快提出具體的一個方案"},{"start":6950.163,"end":6976.866,"text":"這個部分一定要趕快去處理。那另外我想這個輕職教育有沒有落實針對脆弱的家庭高風險的家庭教育部有沒有具體的措施?對一些弱勢學生的一個關照當然教育部在許多從這個家庭教育中心裡面的輕職的教育或者學校老師的一些親師的一些座談事實上他一直都在積極把他當作一個重點"},{"start":6977.486,"end":7000.307,"text":"包括課業的輔助生活的一個輔助我還是回歸到我們剛剛講的一定有做我們相信你們有做但到底效能有沒有彰顯昨天台中才發生中民南路有一個家長接送孩子的時候在這個過程當中對他的孩子可以說是拳打腳踢甚至是有點半拖行摩托車拖行讓孩子在後面的一個這個社會案件"},{"start":7002.669,"end":7016.495,"text":"但國教署現在我們看到的這個第三期推動家庭教育的中層計畫和衛生福利部11個部會中央部會攜手的家庭教育我想到底成效具體如何我希望會後有沒有這樣相關的資料可以提供給我們"},{"start":7017.375,"end":7032.344,"text":"我想北歐國家例如挪威、瑞典皆有親職假加拿大還有澳洲也有相關的制度他們的政策是希望促進父母在出生後和孩子的一個照顧角色平等我們都知道教育不是學校"},{"start":7032.944,"end":7033.884,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":7060.27,"end":7061.811,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案"},{"start":7089.352,"end":7098.661,"text":"謝謝羅委員,謝謝部長。本席再次宣布,在我們的01級委員詞詢完畢之後,我們就會休息五分鐘。接下來我們就請陳培宇委員。好,謝謝主席,有請部長,謝謝。謝謝部長。"},{"start":7117.493,"end":7143.8,"text":"部長早安剛剛所有委員都在問的是專輔人力那跟部長分享專輔人力是第11條但是還有第10條的學校裡面的專業輔導教師所以這是所有委員還有所有現場的老師們的哀嚎如果人數真的可以增加經費也可以增加我覺得最可怕下一個問題我要趕快讓部長知道也許部長您現在不會有答案可是部長拜託您在"},{"start":7144.6,"end":7146.561,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":7164.665,"end":7165.787,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":7181.049,"end":7191.699,"text":"因為剛剛都沒有委員提到這件事情,但是這才是最可怕的事情。也就是說我們人數就算補上來、簽給齊了,地方政府依然請不到人。不管是地方學府自治中心第11條專輔人員或是第10條學校裡面的輔導老師,一樣會請不到人。部長這個部分請問你有什麼見解?"},{"start":7199.17,"end":7199.33,"text":"主席"},{"start":7230.631,"end":7257.302,"text":"部長你講兩個關鍵一個是失陪端一個是在職增能所以我們就要提到為什麼在職增能這件事情下一頁我們來看另外一個我們現在看到的問題目前我們看不到關於矯正學校如何被納入學輔法裡面考量部長我們先不管法務部的立場我想要問部長您身為一個基層教育工作者也是大學校長你在教育的立場你贊不贊成把矯正學校的學生納入學生輔導法的法規範酬"},{"start":7261.205,"end":7284.413,"text":"我想這個小鎮的學生我們本來就希望他到最後能夠回歸到正常的一個學校。他確實在一個特定的一個時空裡邊有一些特殊的這個時段的一個處遇,他當然有他的一個特殊的一個需求。那目標我們都是希望他能夠回到一般的學校。"},{"start":7284.633,"end":7305.765,"text":"我可以請法務部表示你們的態度跟意見嗎?因為學生,矯正學校的學生目前你們可能說會有少角學校儲育實施條例而目前少角學校儲育實施條例的規劃狀況又是什麼?你們打算什麼時候送行政院?難道我們在這次學輔法的修法過程當中我們要再一次遺漏這些學生嗎?"},{"start":7306.705,"end":7325.726,"text":"來自少角校的校長告訴我們我們從特教端之前已經跟教育部反映過從特教端孩子們需要協助沒有被接住現在回到學生輔導法我們要再次漏掉這些小孩嗎剛剛張偉已經講了非常多極端的悲傷的令人悲傷的個案新北市割喉案的那個孩子他就是這個狀況"},{"start":7326.967,"end":7338.497,"text":"當時的案子他們也都承認中間有漏接。這一次在學輔法我們要再次強調請把少小學校的孩子納入法規。請問法務部你們的態度目前的規劃是什麼?跟委員報告"},{"start":7344.398,"end":7346.079,"text":"現在在113年3月12號已經送到院裡面去了。"},{"start":7368.699,"end":7380.11,"text":"所以有跟教育部討論嗎關於相關學生輔導的辦法跟相關的理念還有怎麼樣實施然後原本的三級輔導制在校角校裡面依然成立嗎因為軍校警校在10年前就已經納入學生輔導法的規定但是角校並沒有納入去年修過平等教育法"},{"start":7385.175,"end":7413.997,"text":"校園性別平等教育法軍警教校也已經納入但是在這一次學復法裡面我們依然沒有看見所以我們辦公室基本上也已經要求法務部跟我們辦公室進行討論所以後續的相關規劃剛剛教育部長也說了站在教育支持孩子的角度他們必須要被納入但是我知道教校的主管機關是法務部我們尊重法務部的判斷但是站在支持孩子的立場到底法務部跟教育部合起來我們還可以多做些什麼"},{"start":7414.497,"end":7440.459,"text":"是不是有待我們之後繼續討論?跟委員報告一下目前我們的做法就是目前其實我們少角校其實我們也參著那個學生輔導法有實施三級輔導的處域那以目前來講我們各校都有設置那個專輔人力以四校來講就專輔人力含國教署補助的目前四校有35名"},{"start":7442.481,"end":7453.848,"text":"那特教老師有10名,輔導老師有27名那現在我們本署也有在試辦新設專輔人力的試辦請人計畫目前預計執行到114年底那我們考慮到"},{"start":7459.611,"end":7486.705,"text":"如同您說的他是事辦他到114年底我們再次強調我們的版本裡面我們希望在第一條我們光是簡單的盤點就發現第一條沒有納入少角學校第二條名列少角學校主管機關為法務部第三學校定義我們希望不要再次排除少角校第四相關的申訴適用少角校相關規範剛剛您所說又是事辦計劃我們上次之前在特教部分聽到的是事辦計劃因為我時間有限是否允許我們之後再開啟相關會議討論"},{"start":7488.546,"end":7488.786,"text":"請回法務部"},{"start":7510.241,"end":7521.233,"text":"剛剛非常多委員都在談數字上升我就不再多說部長您來自學界你認為很多教育現場的學術研究作為教育政策指導這件事情重不重要?"},{"start":7522.366,"end":7550.798,"text":"我想有一個大樣本跟接近實際的一個這個情境的一個研究大樣本是告訴我們現場發生了什麼事情可是這些樣本或者是這些現象到底背後的因素是什麼我相信部長我們所有人都沒有真的那麼清楚有人講了3C有人講了家庭教育有人講了社區有人講了霸凌有人講了毒品但是每一個個案身上所展現出來的因素都不一樣"},{"start":7551.238,"end":7560.767,"text":"我們辦公室一直在拜託教育部一直在拜託衛福部相關的死因回溯研究目前衛福部只有做0到6歲而且那個是相對資料盤點相對簡單但是複雜的孩子們從1歲到14歲在死因第三名自殺15到24歲第二名自殺"},{"start":7570.336,"end":7591.338,"text":"但是我們大人到底了不了解孩子們出了什麼事情在去年的數字200個自殺個案當中如果有機會做執行研究、量化研究協助現場的老師也協助家長甚至也協助地方學輔資中心的專輔人員大家共同去找出背後可能性可以歸因的因素難道這件事情不重要嗎?"},{"start":7592.199,"end":7617.883,"text":"如果我們只有看到人數上升但我們不知道背後的因素部長我們的版本裡面想要拜託教育部納入相關的考慮中央主管機關應該針對學生自殺、自殺未遂、嚴重自我傷害逐案回顧調查研究然後每年公布研究報告前項的調查我們認為還要包含這些因素部長這個不是我自己從天上掉下來的想法在國外已經在英國跟美國跟歐洲、澳洲都有相關"},{"start":7618.743,"end":7642.613,"text":"此事上委員所關心的也是我在內部教育部裡邊跟我們同仁這一個要求的。也就是說我們在未來刑務法過去我們每一個次的甚至每個禮拜甚至每個月固定的一個案例的一個分析然後能夠建構各個學校各個地區的一些真正學生的問題然後有一些"},{"start":7643.673,"end":7654.137,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分"},{"start":7671.364,"end":7689.697,"text":"謝謝部長所以我們就往這個方向努力在修法就算不能列在七條之一如果他有機會往別條去放但是部長您已經公開支持相關的研究是重要的對嗎在你過往的工作當中您確實也這樣做好謝謝部長那好沒關係時間有限就先講謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝部長謝謝陳佩玉委員好接下來我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":7712.394,"end":7714.117,"text":"謝謝主席,有請教育部部長備詢。"},{"start":7720.336,"end":7742.504,"text":"各位好部長早安依據媒體報導指出2020年的國高中大專院校的自殺通報人數是2016年的6倍到9倍不等國小甚至高達10倍社會的變遷非常的快速科技也一直在變化學生學童的壓力持續的有各種不同新的樣態本席先前有跟部長林提到"},{"start":7742.924,"end":7764.656,"text":"教育部應該要就AI霸凌或者新型態的虛擬霸凌的樣態做各種輔導的機制,協助第一線的人員有足夠的知能來瞭解同理並輔導遭遇到這種情況的學生。這一次的學生輔導法的修正,各個版本都希望能夠回應實務現場的需要。本期草案的第11條是希望擴張專任專業輔導人員的數量,"},{"start":7767.378,"end":7789.859,"text":"但是教育部卻跟我們說明如果這樣修可能會增加3到6億恐怕有經費的困難先不論經費困境的合理性但終究資源有限我們還是要設法接觸每個孩子才是關鍵因此如何善用其他的機制就是我們要一起努力的方向尤其善用科技的力量就是一個好方法請教一下部長"},{"start":7790.419,"end":7798.021,"text":"您覺得AI可以用來作為協助學生輔導的工具嗎?您認為可以怎麼運用AI來協助學生輔導?確實這個部分我是比較深思但是從AI怎麼樣去了解到這個學生的許多的這些問題的樣態能夠提供我們這個專業老師的一些這個輔導的一個介入我想這是可以好使用"},{"start":7819.887,"end":7826.998,"text":"我想我們做監督志恆也是要來協作我已經幫您都整理好了這是一篇2017年的研究史丹佛大學開發這個Wobot聊天機器人這個已經驗證了這個一組學生"},{"start":7835.45,"end":7847.542,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人"},{"start":7857.372,"end":7881.159,"text":"可以來協助我們來幫助學生我們來看英國就有醫療單位使用AI機器人作為求助者的減傷分類工具由AI來幫忙判斷求助者是否需要緊急協助或是需要提供心理治療等建議注意在AI這裡的角色就像是一個虛擬助手而不是一個虛擬心理師他只是做協助的"},{"start":7882.279,"end":7908.142,"text":"另一個案例根據2023年在《Nature》底下的《Translational Psychiatry》的期刊也指出使用人工智慧語音助手來進行心理治療患者的憂鬱和焦慮的症狀可以獲得改善我們再來看一下今年2月最新的研究發表自COVID-19以來英國的民眾對於心理健康的服務需求持續提升所以有公司開發聊天機器人"},{"start":7909.402,"end":7935.869,"text":"提供民眾具有同理心的回應和鼓勵。透過聊天的資訊機器人也協助轉介民眾到需要的心理醫療服務。以該研究顯示這個AIBOT已經幫助了22萬名的病患完成轉診。請教部長您剛剛說您不是很了解啦但是我想再次確認以您的了解目前國內有沒有將AI運用在學生輔導工作的相關研究或嘗試?"},{"start":7937.202,"end":7946.504,"text":"教育的現場確實是我想這個是沒有的但是委員剛才所提供的確實是一個我覺得那是"},{"start":7948.257,"end":7948.297,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":7970.299,"end":7994.773,"text":"相關的心理學期刊我們已經有不只一所學校在嘗試希望教育部能夠進一步了解並且擴大辦理了解可行的方案那請教部長那教育部有沒有可能來投入一些經費既然您剛剛都非常open-minded能不能積極嘗試科技導入或者將AI科技導入學生輔導的工作藉此找到協助學生輔導的新工作模式我覺得這是一個值得嘗試的一個方式在"},{"start":8000.349,"end":8016.674,"text":"對學生的一個輔導支持的一個網絡跟各式的一些策略的一個介入有一些結合新科技我相信也符合我們現在年輕人他們許多的生活的一個樣態跟學習的樣態謝謝部長那能不能請教育部在三個月內演繹事辦計畫並提供書面報告給本席辦公室"},{"start":8019.875,"end":8037.207,"text":"這是我們的努力。好,謝謝。那上次輔導法的公聽會有非常多讀者、與會者都提到關於專輔人員行政工作負擔過重的問題我們也希望運用科技來幫忙。那另外呢,最近正值大專院校的期末前幾天有媒體報導"},{"start":8040.149,"end":8067.268,"text":"北部一所國立大學有學生收到校務行政人員疑似校務行政人員發出的訊息稱學生該學期有二分之一的學生學分不及格將被勒令退學邀請、要求學生點選連結幸好學生機警沒有點選轉而向校方求證確認以後是詐騙訊息類似的詐騙方式不僅發生在國立大學我們也看到有私立大學的學生接到詐騙簡訊"},{"start":8069.049,"end":8096.43,"text":"請問部長教育部目前有沒有著手調查這個事件的前因後果包含詐騙集團究竟如何取得學生的課資跟聯繫方式目前到底有多少學校多少名學生接獲類似的詐騙簡訊確實這一個不同的教育階段他有不同的這個詐騙有沒有調查這個案子那我們有隨時都有通報系統對這樣的訊息我們都隨時都有掌握請問這個專案知不知道"},{"start":8097.227,"end":8098.73,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":8109.394,"end":8110.875,"text":"學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":8134.309,"end":8149.841,"text":"並且通報大專院校北一區學務中心。部長,我查了這個相關的設置要點,發現學務中心的工作要點只有維護校園安寧等業務,其中並未涵蓋與資安有關的事項。請問剛剛您怎麼確定這不是資安事件的?這個部分是由這一所發現簡訊的學校,他們去檢核他們自己的學生資料庫的安全系統。"},{"start":8160.404,"end":8189.036,"text":"好,我想確認一下,為什麼我會特別詢問這件事呢?因為呢,近日學生收到上述的詐騙簡訊有幾個樣態。第一個,剛好收到訊息的學生的學業成績不太理想。你想想看,如果我是第一名,我收到這種簡訊我還會被騙嗎?肯定不會嘛。第二個,這個詐騙簡訊的連結是.edu.tw喔。這是某一間台灣的大專院校裡面的網站喔。"},{"start":8190.188,"end":8200.836,"text":"所以這一間大專院像我孤影其名啦這不是學校的錯有沒有他們治安有沒有問題為什麼剛好就是成績不好的學生收到通報你們難道都不懷疑嗎學校就說沒有就沒有嗎我們不需要跟數位部通查一下嗎謝謝委員的提醒確實如果從委員剛才所提的他確實應該有一些"},{"start":8214.372,"end":8215.092,"text":"五、審查委員朱司馬基等19人擬"},{"start":8235.019,"end":8246.163,"text":"這個呢有沒有可能是涉及校園的資安應該要好好來保護學生為什麼我要這樣講呢我們幫你們整理了相關的數據112年全國詐騙案件的數量成長率28.7%同年度的校園詐騙通報案件數成長率是44%"},{"start":8253.865,"end":8275.64,"text":""},{"start":8275.72,"end":8297.041,"text":"我們有沒有除了加強宣導以外還有沒有什麼校園防詐的措施有沒有辦法一起來跟各個資安單位主動介入協助調查釐清相關的事件有沒有涉及資安事件也要請教育部跟速發部應該要積極更經常的來做跨部會的合作能不能做到"},{"start":8297.461,"end":8308.556,"text":"另外,各校你們都有編列,這個高教生跟預算有資安經費,公立大專院校平均補助每所100萬一年,私立大學平均每所94萬,這樣夠嗎?有沒有要提高?"},{"start":8313.311,"end":8316.052,"text":"學生是弱勢,校園也是駭客瞄準的目標這已經是各國的資安組織一再警示的本席也一再的提示"},{"start":8340.236,"end":8358.908,"text":"台灣本來就是資安攻擊的熱區政府單位尤其教育系統也是受攻擊的高風險單位我認為除了教育部應該要針對常見的詐騙形式進行更多宣導以外也希望能夠投入更多的資源強化校園資安避免駭客攻入學校的資訊系統竊取學生個資甚至去影響弱勢的同學去做這種緊張憂鬱繳錢"},{"start":8367.173,"end":8380.841,"text":"最後反而學生要被輔導竟然是因為我們資安成效不彰被詐騙來提升校園的安全我們一起來努力為整個詐騙產業不要幫他們助攻而是要全面的遏止謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝兩位接下來我們請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":8396.85,"end":8399.334,"text":"謝主席,請部長。好,部長,謝謝。委員好。"},{"start":8406.311,"end":8426.126,"text":"部長早安,首先本席先來請教剛才您接受訪問的這個回答台電表示說他們將取消對教育這個系統的這個電價優惠希望就由主管機關來接手那部長您這邊是回答說為編列預算來協助學校這邊想請教部長有沒有預估說我們這個需要多少的經費我們有這樣的預算來因應嗎?"},{"start":8430.5,"end":8457.438,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心因為確實從這個電源法裡面的一個規範那台電他現在在提供的一個用電量給這些學校機關那麼基本上他應該要低於平均的一個電價全國這個平均的電價但是因為這個發電的一個成本裡面他要考慮成本所以這個電源法裡面的規範"},{"start":8458.499,"end":8460.54,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬所以你們是都已經充分的討論過了?"},{"start":8481.792,"end":8488.278,"text":"adequate to the program of the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Education."},{"start":8498.598,"end":8500.68,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":8519.573,"end":8542.24,"text":"接下來呢本期這邊想請教部長本期一直很關心也一直在提醒教育部就是說目前我們學生不論是被詐騙或是不慎來參加詐團詐騙別人這個情況非常的嚴重教育部這邊除了你們要加強宣傳之外其實還有很多地方很多事情要多努力尤其現在是暑假的期間很多學生他會規劃短期的打工這個部分更需要注意"},{"start":8542.64,"end":8545.801,"text":"况本席在這段期間如果有參加社區治安會議有一些來參加社區治安會議的長輩我都會提醒他們你們當時的孫子、你們當時的孩子現在休息了或是畢業了要找陶爐一定要給他注意那如果跟你說那些陶爐很辛苦、錢又很多、很輕鬆的那都一定有問題"},{"start":8560.845,"end":8584.957,"text":""},{"start":8589.366,"end":8604.389,"text":"主要我們跟警政署這邊也有很緊密的聯繫針對不同的教育階段孩子容易受騙的樣態那我們針對這個特別的樣態從案例當中去製作懶人包透過懶人包提供給各大學去做教育宣導"},{"start":8604.79,"end":8604.97,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":8630.33,"end":8634.913,"text":"所以這個部分我也希望說我們盡快加緊腳步我們該來提醒學生來該給他們的這些資能我們必須要趕快有這樣子的規劃那接下來是針對今天我們大家都很關心的這個專輔的這個議題我想請教部長針對專輔人力的部分國小專輔人力規劃你們有規劃說要從120年提前到116年這邊來處理那這個部分我要想要請部長你是不是可以說明"},{"start":8659.367,"end":8664.857,"text":"116學年度相較於112學年度,你們將增加多少位的專輔教師?"},{"start":8670.383,"end":8682.351,"text":"這個以我目前來看在協會方面通過我們光以24班小學來講就是要增加2088人所以這才是為什麼當時考慮到師資的培養到真正現場裡面的一個可能所以當時的規劃是120年才能夠逐步把這2088人補齊"},{"start":8697.64,"end":8715.348,"text":"所以我們現在很多的這些委員所關心的不管第4條第10條第11條我們其實都還要考慮到所以我們也不敢照鏡他不僅是經會上的一些問題我們也希望能夠確保這一個委員所關心的這個輔導的一個品質怎麼樣發揮他的專業能夠真正接觸學生能夠支持維護學生的一個權利"},{"start":8722.591,"end":8734.234,"text":"市長您剛提到說需要增加的這些教師的員額那所需要的人事經費大概多少?中央如何配置?人事的經費我們現在外加12億外加12億外加12億那專輔教師的這個規補增的這個規劃我們是要怎樣的期程?是每學年增加還是每學期增加?"},{"start":8753.367,"end":8775.652,"text":"我們基本上是朝美學年來增加專武人力如果在學校的特殊我們當然有適度的一些專業人才我們也不排斥還是會彈性調整喔那這個部分呢如果說我們是跟地方合併跟共併的這個方式我們會運作多久我們跟地方政府如何來配合"},{"start":8783.883,"end":8800.42,"text":"兩位委員報告,這個細節我來補充一下。共聘的方式是原來規劃的,後來我們會做一點微調,讓每個學校更能夠因應需求。所以剛剛部長講的2088那是配到學校,每個學校,只是提前而已。"},{"start":8801.081,"end":8812.888,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、"},{"start":8830.779,"end":8834.263,"text":"除了說學生輔導相關議題之外,教育部這邊109年到110年下案通報相關統計,教職員工自殺致傷事件件數從109年45件到110年70件其實是增加的。"},{"start":8850.379,"end":8877.459,"text":"所以很明顯的我們看到說不只學生相關的心理壓力增加面對整個社會情勢改變的其實對教職員的這個心理影響也是很劇烈所以這邊也希望說教育部你們可以著重教職員的心理狀態不僅只是要我們對學生我們要接觸學生我們也要助老師們一臂之力那目前我們教育部增加的教師心腹的經費呢各縣市政府也有一個心理諮商中心在合作那提供教職員免費的心理諮商也有團體諮商這樣的方式"},{"start":8879.761,"end":8888.047,"text":"但是對於教職員自殺自傷的建樹逐漸地震的狀況,教育部你們這邊如何落實?你們有怎樣的方式來規劃?"},{"start":8891.462,"end":8916.372,"text":"我想教師的一個心理健康我們本來大概許多的教師研習真人教師的這個情緒的管理包括怎麼樣去協助他們這個抗拒這個抗壓的一個力量因為這個部分我們確實是有編一些經會來協助為什麼提到教師呢?因為有快樂的教師才會有快樂的學生我完全同意委員的一個論點"},{"start":8918.053,"end":8938.368,"text":"老師要他能夠有更好的一個心情而減少這個職業的倦怠我相信他對教育品質對學生的學校所以我們在關心學生的這個輔導的這個機制的同時對教職員工也希望說我們同樣有關心主席請再給我半分鐘就好了好那我這樣我請署長體育署長體育署體育署長是是您"},{"start":8948.077,"end":8966.166,"text":"市長請教因為巴黎奧運在即那其實教育部先前我有提醒那教育部也有對恐攻的部分做了類似的模擬但是最近因為天氣的這個狀態大家非常的關心國外非營利氣候中心有警告7月8月巴黎的天氣是非常非常的酷熱"},{"start":8966.886,"end":8967.906,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":8991.491,"end":9011.837,"text":"報告委員,這部分我想我們國訓的營養師會來協助做衛教,當然高雄的酷熱也不亞於法國巴黎,不過至少在晚上的住宿的部分我們倒是有租用了這個移動式的空調,確保我們的選手至少在晚上的休息的期間是房間內的氣溫…"},{"start":9012.637,"end":9025.524,"text":"我知道我們體育署有去注意到這個部分就是在他們晚上休息的時候有比較舒適的溫度但是在平常他們訓練或是比賽當中我們還是要注意選手的健康狀態是好以上謝謝謝謝委員提醒好接下來我們請林宜瑾委員那林宜瑾委員質詢完之後我們休息五分鐘謝謝謝主席有請鄭部長好部長"},{"start":9047.19,"end":9052.532,"text":"則將學生輔導諮商中心以任務編組方式來運作,或者是說尋地方自治的法規設立新機關或派出單位。問題是目前我們的學生輔導"},{"start":9071.297,"end":9077.78,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":9096.527,"end":9099.729,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":9118.34,"end":9125.024,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員張雅琳等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":9148.004,"end":9148.384,"text":" ﹝請教育部說明﹞"},{"start":9168.944,"end":9187.137,"text":"對於專輔人員的待遇或者各縣市的學生輔導諮商中心又有什麼樣的實質改革?可不可以說明一下?就是說關於勞動的條件跟提升品質的部分想要為這些專業者願意留下來的作為有什麼?"},{"start":9188.564,"end":9189.906,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":9208.166,"end":9208.206,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":9230.822,"end":9232.844,"text":" bicyclope等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":9251.562,"end":9251.602,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":9271.282,"end":9285.917,"text":"專業輔導人員的人力比,教育部今年1月起我們已經有先以增調補助經費的方式支持大專院校的輔導人力的配比1比900。那我想可是高級中學以下呢"},{"start":9286.738,"end":9305.386,"text":" unemployed by the Board of Directors of the Department of Education, the Department of Education, the Department of Education, the Department of Education, the Department of Education, the Department of Education, the Department of Education, the Department of Education,"},{"start":9326.89,"end":9348.282,"text":"應該這麼講說謝謝委員的關心如果以委員的版本我們還要再增加有400多位或增加將近3億6千多萬的經費光這一個部分所以大概我們整體還有一個剛才也跟其他委員報告過我們確實有許多專業人力的培育"},{"start":9349.182,"end":9350.924,"text":"等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":9376.326,"end":9402.847,"text":"好 那我先來談談就是說現在我們來細究一些待遇制度的問題好了因為第一屆的專業人員其實他們常反映就是說他們接觸的個案因為相當的複雜那甚至有很多的危險性而且他們還要處理很多的大量的行政事務所以他們根本沒有足夠的休息跟合理的待遇我覺得超過他們身心理所可以負擔的範圍所以離職率高就是這樣"},{"start":9406.149,"end":9406.73,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":9429.651,"end":9429.671,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":9450.689,"end":9479.449,"text":"我以專輔人員的待遇以智商心理師都是碩士為基準來看就好如果沒有現行的輔資中心的制度來聘用的話那都是約聘人員目前是這樣那薪資到底頂多到5萬7可是若你有醫事人員的虛心標準來看薪資最高都可以到接近7萬那如果專輔教師可以接近到9萬那另外現場的專輔人員也有反應說其實若轉任到督導"},{"start":9480.229,"end":9484.252,"text":"但後來又不想當督導又轉為專輔人員結果他這個督導年資不能被採記等於他的值等的縫階跟縫點都降低了不曉得教部有沒有注意到這種狀況那教部到底有沒有掌握說哪些縣市有遇到這樣的狀況那本席認為這樣真的很不合理就是說當督導的年資沒有被採記他回任專輔人員時就被降低薪資那誰還想要當督導"},{"start":9508.391,"end":9532.865,"text":"關於政府人員薪資的待遇和擔任督導這個年資沒有被採集的問題,現在部委要怎麼改善?部長我想委員所關心的這一個勞動人員的許多的條件,包括剛才督導的年資我相信因為能夠當督導是因為他在心理專業的一個層次累積的經驗更豐富,才足以成為一個督導那他督導的年資不納入,我覺得這是我們"},{"start":9533.345,"end":9533.845,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":9554.855,"end":9557.357,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":9583.332,"end":9583.992,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":9611.536,"end":9613.781,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在就先休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":9921.611,"end":9921.872,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":9948.404,"end":9962.557,"text":"陳秀寶有特別提到關於教育部要回歸教育部補助學校電費的一個問題。那剛剛其實我也聽到了部長有特別的回應就是說這一筆的整個所有的這個預算大概將近快20億。"},{"start":9964.619,"end":9974.686,"text":"我接著下來問,因為我們有收到一些陳情,但是撇除這些陳情之外,我接著下來問,這個補助的20億會不會擠壓到其他的一些學校的補助的部分?"},{"start":9985.358,"end":10008.798,"text":"確實我們現在跟委員報告我們也跟主席總書也在做這個溝通希望能夠對這個定位能夠才從總體的一個預算裡面給予更多的一些支持那確實如果教育經費不變他當然一定會有一些那有時候我們當然會檢討內部"},{"start":10010.68,"end":10012.162,"text":" bicyclope等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案》案"},{"start":10027.222,"end":10052.279,"text":"是,因為我們也擔心就是因為這個21的一個補助可能也會擠壓到其他的一些部分,就希望不要捉襟見肘。好,那麼回到這個學生輔導法的這個部分,那我想這個學生輔導我記得在4月中的時候我們在這個公聽會上其實也聽到了一些讓人覺得很擔憂也很擔心的一些數字,那剛剛其實有好多的委員其實也都有特別提到,尤其是讓我們比較覺得"},{"start":10054.44,"end":10055.501,"text":"一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":10070.709,"end":10094.198,"text":"介入性及處遇性但比較少會針對所謂的第一級這個發展性的一個輔導但是其實我也特別想要提到就是這個發展性的這個輔導其實如果沒有加強強化的話其實間接的就會引發其他第二級跟第三級那最後其實累垮的就是我們的這個專業的輔導的人力"},{"start":10096.619,"end":10098.201,"text":"等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":10123.024,"end":10141.185,"text":"為什麼會在我們的專輔人力的人員的部分其實就是就他們的勞動條件不管是有沒有改善或者是加起甚至福利還有這些專輔人員在學校他們在面對這些不同被輔導的一些個案他們身心上所處的這種"},{"start":10142.346,"end":10143.746,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":10159.091,"end":10187.27,"text":"全校只有一位專輔的教師。那這個的確是顯示是相當不夠。那變成只有這一位的專輔的人員專業的人力他要面對全校的不同的一些狀況。那我們知道現在其實光是國中小甚至高中自殺的比例或者是通報的案件之所以會這麼的多其實有一些大部分都跟所謂的情緒障礙有關。"},{"start":10189.271,"end":10210.114,"text":"但是這個情緒障礙其實是需要更專業的輔導更專業的人力去面對那我們怎麼樣去解決這一塊的問題我想這個部分也是我們想要特別要表達的那我再舉例其實有些兼任兼導的導師他說他平常就有所謂的導師的工作"},{"start":10211.155,"end":10232.305,"text":"只能夠輔導一名的學童但是跟專輔老師能夠輔導12名的孩童這個差距其實是非常非常大的另外在南投的部分我們可以看到總共有137個南投縣的部分有137間學校六班以下的學校佔了三分之二"},{"start":10232.885,"end":10254.605,"text":"所以大部分的所謂的輔導的人員都是由教師來做兼任那另外呢就是專輔老師的這個偏鄉的部分以苗栗縣來說他佔了所謂的三分之一偏鄉的學校那專輔的人力不足其實也會導致他們必須要跨校"},{"start":10255.265,"end":10255.405,"text":"等19人擬等19人擬"},{"start":10277.835,"end":10287.317,"text":"在第一線的教育現場我們其實看到有很多包含行政、包含老師、包含專輔人員對於他們的選擇跟他們必須要去做的輔導諮詢的工作內容其實是會選擇不明這也是我們比較擔心的這個部分部長您怎麼看?"},{"start":10301.023,"end":10325.634,"text":"謝謝委員的指正確實我們怎麼樣去本來這一次的修法就是希望能夠真正能夠回應這一個社會的期待然後能夠維護學生的受教權能夠讓老師能夠發揮他的專業進行這個教學所以我們對這些偏鄉或者說小班的學校我們都會至少確保他有一位"},{"start":10326.581,"end":10327.082,"text":"一、審查委員張雅琳"},{"start":10346.4,"end":10368.704,"text":"此對學生輔導工作的推動和支持事實上都是不利的所以我們在這一次修法的重點也把這一個朝每一個學校不要在說小校裡面當然它一定會增加所謂的經費的所有的這些的但是我們還是考慮到以學生的受教跟教育的品質為優先"},{"start":10373.885,"end":10402.322,"text":"好 我們當然以這個部分為優先那這個部分其實在這個第11條本期也特別提出了我自己的一個版本就是就這個偏遠的學校來講就是原本的20校其實20校其實是完全不夠的那我是縮短到了6校那這個部分其實我們可以再來做討論那今天最後因為時間的關係最後一個問題我比較想要知道的是因為現在除了即將要來臨的暑假那也是畢業季"},{"start":10403.503,"end":10432.062,"text":"我相信有很多剛剛所提到的不管是第二集第三集被輔導的這些所謂的應該是說個案那他們也有可能要離開原來的一些環境或者是在這一段的空窗期當中我不知道這個部分在所謂的銜接的這個空窗期我們的這個輔導怎麼銜接怎麼協助這個部分有沒有納入在這樣子的一個考量的範圍當中呢"},{"start":10435.444,"end":10457.956,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒因為屬於這個暑假本來我們自己的學生當然我們有一定的這些對這個學生的一個輔導關照包括校外的許多他們家庭的一些活動我們都會有一些所謂的提醒委員所說的這都是我們事實上都在做但是屬於那個畢業生裡面"},{"start":10459.737,"end":10488.477,"text":"﹏我們也事實上在社會裡邊還是有很多的一個機構裡邊他事實上是可以銜接變成一個社會的一個支持網絡我想這是事實上都有的我想這個部分可能將來我們還要再考慮得更清楚也把這些空窗型因為不是只有暑假可能寒假也是然後再來就是學生他從這個學校可能要晉升到國中或者國中畢業要到高中那他如果本來就是一些比較具有關注性"},{"start":10488.937,"end":10489.377,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":10506.17,"end":10506.53,"text":"接下來我們請張雅琳委員"},{"start":10540.856,"end":10541.497,"text":"謝謝主席,我們邀請鄭部長。"},{"start":10549.79,"end":10575.747,"text":"委員好部長好我想跟部長再強調一件事情就是青春期是個人從童年過渡到成年的一個關鍵形成時期所以確保青少年成長時期的心理健康和福祉是可以支持一個小孩好好的長大成為一個健康的成人那前面其實有非常多的委員都有提到有關於"},{"start":10577.068,"end":10578.71,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":10600.791,"end":10627.183,"text":"到底孩子為什麼會走上這一條路為什麼會造成這樣子的問題我是有看到這個臺大的公衛學院健康行為與社區科學研究所張書生教授發表的校園學生自我傷害的特徵與防治的文章是有提到說自殺跟智商的原因主要來自於精神跟家庭關係但是我也想要強調就是說這裡面為什麼會造成精神疾病"},{"start":10627.543,"end":10627.903,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":10650.092,"end":10672.315,"text":"所以我也希望就在我們學輔導法修正的這個過程之中我們也必須要更清楚的去做一些本土的研究瞭解我們一些真正的原因才能夠採取相對應的一些措施同時我想要特別提醒部長就是關於中低收入的家庭其實在世界研究上面風險是更高的"},{"start":10672.415,"end":10689.514,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":10689.995,"end":10704.595,"text":"接下來就是說,我們現在雖然已經要投入了,我們現在已經有投入了,我知道教育部其實已經有對大學的部分去投入預算去配比這些人力,但是我們也可以看到就是歷史新高,節節上升。"},{"start":10707.409,"end":10733.195,"text":"那2023年報導者其實有針對於新府的議題做了一系列的報導其中其實有強調說他們被賦予重任可是困難重重例如就是說可能是不合理的薪資待遇這剛剛其實也都有委員都有提到身份定位不明行政業務龐大學生狀況複雜而我們也有收到現場的老師來澄清說我們雖然補了人力可是學校會叫他去做其他的事情"},{"start":10733.995,"end":10758.414,"text":"例如叫他去辦活動,例如叫他做行政工作。所以這個變成說我們補了人力,可是他並沒有真正去回應現場的狀況。再來就是說,這個薪資的一個不足,也造成他們其實不願意來到這邊。可是如果我們今天流動率這麼高,我們就沒有辦法讓個案可以跟輔導人力"},{"start":10759.835,"end":10762.297,"text":"審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":10787.384,"end":10802.332,"text":"我們有推動這個大專的輔導工作評鑑我們會把有關於專任輔導人員專職投入在學生的輔導以及如何建立合理的待遇跟進行制度會列入評鑑的指標當中"},{"start":10803.953,"end":10831.583,"text":"此時何時上路呢?其實已經從1、2開始已經正式上路了我們剛才這樣的一個指標其實已經納入指標當中如果有發現不合格的狀況我們後續一定會追蹤輔導好 謝謝那這個報告是不是也可以提供到我們辦公室好不好 謝謝那再來就是說因為我也看到我們專輔人力整體聘任只有八成那我不曉得原因是除了薪資還有行政工作太多還是還有什麼其他的原因這不知道教育部有沒有掌握呢為什麼只有到八成"},{"start":10835.373,"end":10859.389,"text":"我想跟委員報告,當然這裡邊這個實聘當然有一些是地方這個經會的考量嘛。那另外還有一個就是專業人力上,事實上他有時候他培養的速度趕不上我們政策上的這個需求,這當然也都是一個可能。那勞動人力當然這整體都是可能的一個影響因素。"},{"start":10860.697,"end":10889.779,"text":"好喔,那我們是有信心在113年補期嗎?還是我們目標在什麼時候要補期呢?跟委員報告,確實我們現在這個學生輔導法以後我們是會要求也希望跟地方政府能夠體認這一個心理輔導的一個重要性對這個城市小孩的一個教育品質上的理解理解,那我們的目標是在什麼時候會把這些相關人力補期,我們有一個具體的時程嗎?"},{"start":10892.009,"end":10918.262,"text":"還是目前還沒有?跟委員報告我們目前國中的部分是...跟委員報告一下 委員可以看到應聘數是那個是我們已經編列經費等著可以用實聘數是實際上現在是用到目前經過努力本來是79經過委員提醒還有一些方法的改變比如說新點調高加補交通費等等已經到達84%經過這樣的努力還有"},{"start":10921.664,"end":10922.224,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":10944.65,"end":10966.935,"text":"好,了解。好,那這部分我們就積極來保持聯絡啦。好,那再下一個就是說,因為其實臺灣自殺憂鬱症防治協會理事長吳嘉義,他之前有提到說7成的精神疾病其實可以回溯到12到18歲。因此高中以下的疾病辨識與早期就醫是更為的重要。但你累積到後面其實是一個比較嚴重的程度,我們的自殺風險就會提高。"},{"start":10968.215,"end":10997.118,"text":"所以我們我知道目前我們衛福部是有針對15到30歲有這個心理諮商需求的朋友提供三次的免費心理諮商但是我上次也有就是質詢部長的時候部長也有承諾就是說針對12歲到15歲的部分我們會盡快來做好看是不是能夠提供給這一段已經在提高這個致殺風險的族群呢也有這些心理諮商的機會我知道上禮拜衛福部跟教育部其實是有開會所以我想要知道現在相關的進度是什麼可不可以說明一下"},{"start":11000.587,"end":11002.35,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":11019.25,"end":11020.431,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":11046.314,"end":11050.258,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案件》案"},{"start":11076.444,"end":11096.603,"text":"我們現在本來就在規劃就增加這個學生的代表現在已經有規劃了是嗎?對對對好那抱歉我可以再花30秒30秒就好就是說就是因為我們現在高中已經有生理假了齁已經有試辦了可是我們說11、80年度就要全面上路了我們真的有沒有去掌握現在試辦的一個狀況我們什麼時候會做一個通盤檢討"},{"start":11097.904,"end":11099.965,"text":"等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11125.666,"end":11153.323,"text":"五、村城委員五、村城委員好,我剛本席已經說了在五、村城委員提案完之後我們就要處理臨時提案那今天的委員有提出了臨時提案之兩案請宣讀第一案國立台灣體育運動大學與中華民國足球協會之三事梁志祺卻經傳其參賽權利遭轉讓至民間公司故本次轉讓因是為國立大學無形資產遭轉移至民間單位樣態"},{"start":11155.024,"end":11172.134,"text":"然祥岳台提到韓副高教司舊本案之說明,均可見相關流程除未經校方參與亦不符合入閣正式會議程序,更黃類於相關韓副中明顯將更名與權利轉讓兩種完全不同層次之做法混為一談。"},{"start":11172.814,"end":11200.46,"text":"其欺騙高教司立法院之意圖昭然可見,願請高教司針對本案相關權利轉讓之合理性與必要性以及有無損害國立大學權益等面向啟動專案行政調查,並邀請專家學者提供客觀意見或予以給院內做出報告,如確實有違反國立大學相關法規則應移送監察院,並要求台體大一向廠商索回相關參賽權利,以為高教尊嚴與學校資產。"},{"start":11202.781,"end":11216.79,"text":"並確實保障學生參賽權益,第二人陳培宇、范雲、郭玉琴。第二案,有鑒於學生輔導法修法程序總括過113學年度各級學校聘用專任輔導教師期間,造成學生輔導中斷影響學生發展。"},{"start":11219.593,"end":11231.492,"text":"請教育部針對113學年度因減班導致專任輔導教師可能異動部分予以於學生輔導法修正施行前依112學年度合定之約而辦理。"},{"start":11234.426,"end":11261.889,"text":"相關補助金對由教育部依據教育部、國民及學前教育署補助公立國民中學及國民小學制輔導教師實施要點辦理,其他增加專任輔導教師人依照地方政府實際需求辦理聘任。提案人顧玉琴呈回於張雅琳宣討完畢。好,有關於第一案有沒有問題?提案委員寫得非常清楚,教育部?我們跟主席報告我們會配合辦理。好,配合辦理。"},{"start":11263.407,"end":11263.607,"text":"有請部長。"},{"start":11300.987,"end":11322.139,"text":"部長我必須說我看到貴部關於委員修法的回應報告內容我覺得是不夠積極那就以我自己提的學生輔導法修法的版本為例其中第七條針對高中以下學校學生我強調是高中以下不是只有高中要求主管機關為維護學生就學權益"},{"start":11325.421,"end":11341.418,"text":"則針對中途離校學生之預防追蹤及輔學輔導事項定立相關辦法。這個修法其實有兩層含義,一個是明確賦予預防追蹤輔導高中中輟生法源,其二就是針對國中國小中輟生的預防追蹤輔導有所因應。"},{"start":11345.402,"end":11371.914,"text":"結果教育部回我說針對中途離校學生已經訂有高級中等學校中途離校學生預防追蹤及輔學輔導實施要點那我想要跟部長說立委修法是希望能夠針對國中國小的中途離校生制定預防追蹤的相關辦法那結果呢我希望國中國小要有就教育部跟我回答說高中有"},{"start":11372.834,"end":11380.266,"text":"這不是問A打B是什麼是問A打B我想請問你部長你覺得國中、國小、中錯生的問題值不值得重視"},{"start":11384.868,"end":11405.323,"text":"我想請教部長,如果以年增減率來看,你知道過去10個學年,就是102學年到111學年,國中和國小中輟生人數哪一年的年增率是最高的?"},{"start":11408.527,"end":11429.098,"text":"我告訴您好了雙雙出現在111學年國小中輟升增幅高達32.73國中輟升增幅到9.88這是國小生10年以來首度出現中輟升正成長國中生第二次出現正成長的情況"},{"start":11429.958,"end":11451.466,"text":"所以當中國小中輟生暴增這就是立法需求需要的一個時候我看到我們教育部卻以高中生定有中輟生的預防追蹤輔導要點來拒絕就是對於立法來進行所有一些比較消極的面對我覺得這一點我覺得部長可能你們要再去研究一下好不好可以嗎好"},{"start":11458.649,"end":11488.264,"text":"然後我接下來再問部長,其實你以為只有國中、國小、中輟生很嚴重嗎?我告訴你,想請教,你知道過去10年來高中、中輟生,特別是學籍上司的人數是增加還是減少?部長,你知道增加還是減少?學籍上司人數,高中、中輟生?部長,這些都重大數字,可能我們教育部、主管機關真的要掌握一下了。"},{"start":11488.677,"end":11488.737,"text":"我告訴您齁"},{"start":11504.235,"end":11525.271,"text":"一百零三學年開始列表當年高中生是八十一萬多上司學籍一萬一千一百六十八人佔百分之一點三六到一百一十一學年學生剩下五十六萬八千人學籍上司人數倍增到兩萬一千六百一十九人佔比變成三點八漲幅高達二點八倍"},{"start":11526.431,"end":11543.345,"text":"我要跟部長說結合我今天在提案說明講的我真的是對過去8年我們的政府對於年輕人的未來的照顧我覺得是我非常的憂心蔡英文總統曾經說青年的未來就是國家的未來部長認同吧 對不對"},{"start":11546.719,"end":11566.233,"text":"但是我告訴你啊,我們現在過去這8年,我們的青年人、年輕人的未來都被快速掏空。比方說舉個例子,少子化是國安危機,部長知道嘛,對不對,已經是國安危機啊。可是我告訴部長,我看到很多教育數字,我看到一個更恐怖的危機出現,叫氣子化危機啊。"},{"start":11567.114,"end":11573.858,"text":"少子化2015年我們的出生人數還有21萬人到我們2023年請問剩下多少人出生人數13萬接近腰斬然後我剛剛前面講青少年自殺率在2015年10到14歲是0.5"},{"start":11590.131,"end":11605.377,"text":"到2022年變成1.6成長三倍然後15到19歲2.8增加到5.4成長兩倍加上我剛剛講的就是學生的中錯率不斷的增加"},{"start":11606.357,"end":11635.497,"text":"那我要跟部長講今天最嚴重棄子化危機是不但讓我們今天我們的夫妻們不敢生少子化危機更重要棄子化危機是年輕人活不下去學生學不下去這個活不下去學不下去難道現在就是我們民進黨過去8年教給我們這些年輕學子未來的政績嗎我真的希望部長能夠好好正視少子加棄子的雙重危機對我們年輕人的禍害以上謝謝"},{"start":11638.861,"end":11639.021,"text":"陳慶惠委員"},{"start":11657.062,"end":11684.863,"text":"部長你好上週因為我身體不適所以沒有辦法把這件事完整的關心完畢可是這是非常多高雄新興學子希望可以盡快看到清華陽明交大來高雄社分部的這個事情所以今天還要在當面跟您詢問一下所以這個審議專科以上學校的分部設立想請問召集人是不是部長本人"},{"start":11689.11,"end":11689.67,"text":"五、審查委員陳建仁等19人擬具"},{"start":11723.654,"end":11742.451,"text":"委員好,跟委員報告,目前有關那個分部的進度,學校是已經有送那個分部的計畫書來了。那我們會根據計畫書,我們會請專家學者還有部內的相關單位來表示意見,因為裡面包括土地的使用、財務的規劃等等。那之後等相關這個意見出來給學校做回覆以後,就會請部長來召開這個變更審議的委員會。謝謝。"},{"start":11746.554,"end":11759.602,"text":"謝謝也在這邊希望部長還可以協助啊協助我們高雄可以加快這樣子的行政作業流程那之後呢清大會規劃設立在舊的左營國中佔地約6公頃教大會在聯談會館面積大概2公頃校方也已經證實說明年初開設碩士學分班內容有AI智慧啊或是半導體封裝以及ESG課程碳資產等等"},{"start":11775.391,"end":11796.36,"text":"並且規劃11四學年會招收碩博士的學位未來大概有4000人的規模所以之後的教育部內省外省都非常的重要希望部長可以在這邊承諾說像是會刊等等作業啊內省外省可不可以儘速的加快不要有所延宕呢"},{"start":11798.267,"end":11798.767,"text":"〔法定人數不足〕"},{"start":11815.932,"end":11818.774,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":11843.14,"end":11863.912,"text":"院長曾經說過會逐步的實踐健康台灣論壇中各種的要點,這就是其中一項。但是按照學生輔導法第22條,106年就要開始逐年增加專輔人員、專輔教師,還有每5年進行檢討。但是到目前我們都沒有看到具體的成效。"},{"start":11864.392,"end":11874.294,"text":"所以我在這邊整理了一下相關的數據跟資料專府人員的數量每一年都落在24、23人可是部長根據110年針對國立高中的評估報告我們其實需要35人的英製元額可是我們現在編的是25都沒有到所以截至去年7月底的專府人員實際聘任情形仍然有155個缺口"},{"start":11892.657,"end":11896.219,"text":"按照學生輔導法第11條來看,一個專輔人員要照顧20校或是55個班級,這個缺口代表有3000個學校或是8000個班級目前沒有專輔人員。這一點如果我們還要再修法的話,155個缺口恐怕只會更加的擴大。"},{"start":11917.449,"end":11917.529,"text":"主席"},{"start":11933.902,"end":11933.962,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":11949.914,"end":11966.864,"text":"謝謝陳秦威委員謝謝部長接下來是廖偉祥委員廖偉祥委員廖偉祥委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員吳佩奕委員好謝謝主席我請教育部部長好我們請部長"},{"start":11984.278,"end":12011.27,"text":"委員好部長好今天我們討論是學生輔導法的修法那這部法案大家都很關心我們也跟教育部有過多次的討論那今天教育部有正式講說未來這個修法有五大方向就包括了增加人力我們三級輔導的整合還有我們地方輔資中心要專業化我們要維護兒少權益還有我們是各級輔導老師要提供他們在職進修那其中因為很重要的就是人力嘛"},{"start":12011.65,"end":12024.914,"text":"因為過去我在市議會在市議會的時候其實我們都多次跟台北市政府的社會局還有我們的教育局在討論青少年的心理健康但是我們知道要能夠給予學生支持專業的輔導人力是最重要的"},{"start":12027.475,"end":12041.158,"text":"所以其實我們從基層現場就發現說專業輔導人力真的是不足那現在問題是說我們怎麼樣除了增加人力以外還要去加強我們跟民間的幸福資源的連結我先問一個問題因為我們現行的學輔法的規定是我們國民教育是55班來設一名專任的輔導人力嗎"},{"start":12050.06,"end":12068.605,"text":"但今天教育部也有提到說少子化我們學校又減班所以55班以上的學校其實是越來越少按照你們現在統計就以高中、校別來說525所學校裡面我們現在有55班的學校是有幾所教育委員"},{"start":12075.961,"end":12097.797,"text":"這個,因為這個比較臨時,我待會中午給您,我們這邊有一個完整目標。這個其實有你們不理同仁有提供我們數字,就是說以高中生來說,這個其中有達到55班只有85校,那這個是比例上其實是不到兩成,這個資料也都是你們教育部提供給我的。舉這個例子是要來說的是,所以我們的法規真的是需要修改了。"},{"start":12098.177,"end":12127.253,"text":"因為我們如果說以過去的標準來說實際上我們能夠來增加輔導的人力是有限的對於需求來說所以在我們的提案裡面呢我們也把大學要設專業輔導人力的門檻從每1200人設一位下修到每900人設一位就是希望要充實校園裡面的專輔人力那前陣子有新店高中的學生來訪問我就是我們正在試辦的高中生的心理假"},{"start":12129.431,"end":12130.052,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":12155.646,"end":12160.55,"text":"各位委員報告,剛剛有6月28的時候我們會做一個調查,那天會會上這42校。所以屆時在這幾天我們有一個調查表,相關的數據,包含剛剛委員提到說大概平均有多少學生在運用,以及運用的問題可能會是哪些,包含可能家長這邊有沒有一些建議這些。"},{"start":12179.344,"end":12194.296,"text":"因為我們現行的法規他這個身心價對高中生來講很重要過去其實就有這樣的需求但是沒有這個價別但他要請還是需要家長同意所以在實務上面除了第一個是說家長認不認同身心價"},{"start":12195.95,"end":12196.55,"text":"二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":12213.422,"end":12238.564,"text":"此外,身心的健康就是現代、當代社會大家都要去有的已經是基本常識了身心價、心理價並不能讓它變成有一種汙名跟標籤化這個我們希望我們教育部你們要去了解說我價別上路了那實際上學生有這樣需求的人跟他有勇敢提出這個請假並且獲得家長同意的這當中有沒有有所落差"},{"start":12239.224,"end":12241.166,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具《學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":12260.251,"end":12271.185,"text":"接下來我要問的是學府法第五條我們也有學生輔導諮詢會在目前的法定成員裡面這個會法定成員有哪些成員?部長"},{"start":12275.9,"end":12289.873,"text":"這裡邊有這個除了主管機關的首長來擔任其他的委員大概包含精神科醫師然後還有一些這個學校的輔導主任老師代表目前法定成員有沒有學生代表"},{"start":12290.253,"end":12315.473,"text":"目前是沒有學生代表的我們在這一次也跟委員報告我們有把學生代表這個利害關係人士是有把學生代表拿進去這個給予肯定而且我覺得非常重要因為跟學生相關的事務我們現在都強調學生有他的自主性讓學生一起來參與討論所以這一次會放進我們的修法版本當中好 謝謝那部長請回接下來我要請體育署"},{"start":12321.803,"end":12346.551,"text":"委員好這個署長好因為今天我們討論學生輔導關心的是心理輔導心理的支持我們準備要前進奧運了像我們霹靂舞的選手孫政也拿到了奧運的門票那之前在教委會我原本就非常關心的是上一次我們的奧運代表團結果我們沒有讓運動心理師隨行我現在請問署長我們今年的奧運有沒有準備好會派運動心理師來隨團"},{"start":12347.751,"end":12375.53,"text":"包括委員我們這一次在運動心理的專業人員方面運動心理諮商老師有九位運動心理諮商師有一位是已經在準備在我們這一次的團隊當中好太好這個非常的重要那去年在教委會裡面委員們也在關心因為我們的運動心理師我們不能只有比賽要培訓的期間才請他們進駐來幫忙那我們需要有編制化正式編制常態性的運動心理師"},{"start":12377.771,"end":12389.695,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":12403.28,"end":12411.345,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員李柏毅等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、�"},{"start":12431.617,"end":12431.857,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬議員范雲等19人擬議員范雲等19人擬"},{"start":12460.672,"end":12478.898,"text":"他除了他平常在我們他可能用的是我們中心裡面的諮商的老師但他有可能是用外面的諮商的老師那我們都一起帶去奧運好 這個我們選手培訓的心理支持非常的重要我們希望體育署要繼續來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝我們請陳廷芬委員我們都是四分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":12495.051,"end":12495.394,"text":"謝謝我們陳政部長"},{"start":12505.472,"end":12509.093,"text":"學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案。學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12532.04,"end":12553.245,"text":"所以我們希望說在這一次學生輔導法當中我們把它一次修好、修滿、修組也就是把我們學生所需要的一些方面都能納到我們的學生輔導法裡面讓我們老師有所本而且甚至是有一些師資的部分、專業的部分我們要怎麼能夠透過這個學生輔導法"},{"start":12558.166,"end":12558.946,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":12572.523,"end":12586.015,"text":"並沒有那麼多的這個正面表列一樣一樣的一個敘述所以我這一次提案就是希望把學生輔導諮詢會的委員成員能夠把它明定也就是說我們要考量到說我們的學生輔導我們的主體性是誰是學生非常清楚"},{"start":12597.708,"end":12624.915,"text":"那對象是學生 那我們就要甄列很多的相關的專業人員包括臨床心理師包括諮商心理師社會工作師還有精神科醫師甚至是要納入到我們一些學生代表甚至是特殊的教育老師所以我們把這些樣態非常清楚的一一呈現"},{"start":12626.311,"end":12654.969,"text":"不論是從小學、中學、高中甚至到即職教育、大學教育都是一樣因為大家的需求度的面就是希望能夠協助這些學生得到應有的心理諮商與輔導可是專業性不同每個人所遇到的問題心裡面的困境它不同所以這次是我在第五條修法的重點"},{"start":12656.33,"end":12680.04,"text":"還有就是我們學生輔導法裡面我們必須要有很大量的行政資源的項目所以我們希望說學校的行政單位也應該來協助一些必須執行的項目比如說我們有一些自我傷害行為學生自我傷害行為我們要怎麼去主動提供輔導的資源"},{"start":12682.31,"end":12710.823,"text":"甚至是在我們現在看到整個自殺的自傷跟自殺的案件是非常非常的多甚至是數字是每年在攀升如果在這樣的前提之下那我們的介入直接的介入主動的介入就很重要喔因為你可能有一個自傷你沒有去注意他會變成是大事"},{"start":12712.424,"end":12737.206,"text":"從小的智商變成大的智商這可能是會導致無法挽回的一條生命所以我們認為說這個部分在第七條的第三項我們必須去征定自我傷害為明顯輔導需求學生也列入我們的輔導對象的行列因為我們知道"},{"start":12738.359,"end":12739.279,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":12757.306,"end":12782.691,"text":"讓他納入到我們主動輔導的需求對象。所以我在第七條的第三項是把它變成是一個主要有明顯我們必須輔導的主動初級然後也一併甄列學生校外生活輔導會必須成為我們學校結合的資源所以這些我想我們教育部都沒有問題吧我看你們的資料部長"},{"start":12784.407,"end":12797.319,"text":"議員,謝謝委員的一個關心,我們怎麼樣有一個更好的一個心理諮商的、心理輔導的一個支持的一個機制。委員剛才所提的事實上也都是我們這一次修正的一個重點。我想我們會..."},{"start":12799.241,"end":12799.641,"text":"接下來我們請葉元芝委員"},{"start":12834.548,"end":12836.79,"text":"有請教育部長,謝謝。好,部長。委員好。部長好。今天大家在談就是說,好像現在很多學校,學生發生比如說自殺、智商的比例節約升高啦,所以大家就覺得說是不是在心理智商這一塊要再加強。實際上,一個學生會出現上述的行為,不是只有心理輔導的問題啦。"},{"start":12860.629,"end":12881.888,"text":"因為大家都知道在一個學校的環境裡面不管是校園的環境、師生的關係、同儕的關係甚至課程設計、家庭因素或者是他有沒有參加社團活動這個都是息息相關所以我是建議教育部在探討這個議題的時候我們不能把它窄化成說好像他這單純就只是諮商的問題什麼輔導事務不單純是這樣"},{"start":12886.452,"end":12908.425,"text":"應該全方位的去了解一下為什麼會出現這些問題然後才能找到解決的方法當然我們今天是在討論學生輔導我們主要討論是心理這一塊也有幾個建議不想聽聽看這個也是很多學校反映第一個當然是專輔能力不足我們現在以國小來講的話好像是40班以上可以有一個專輔一下是一個專輔也是這樣"},{"start":12911.167,"end":12936.684,"text":"是有沒有可能調整變成大概20班,國家如果有20班就有一個人,這樣可不可以?有沒有朝這個方向去規劃?我們在努力。第二個就是,我覺得剛剛也很多委員都提到,實際上有時候也不是法律規定應該多少人,而是根本就找不到人。現在很多學校真專輔,比如說開10個圈也許只能來8個報到,剩下就代理老師。"},{"start":12938.425,"end":12961.034,"text":"這個問題其實大家都講很久了但是都一直沒辦法解決所以我不知道教育部到底針對實際這個問題的解決到底有什麼方案總不能說每次我們都在這邊說怎麼要找人啊人不夠啊然後每次從去年談到今年談到明年都是一樣的問題然後都沒有解決這樣也很奇怪吧部長"},{"start":12964.65,"end":12978.236,"text":"我跟委員報告,這絕對不會的。因為我想我們確保的就是他是專業,然後這個品質這是我們所在意的。那你目前這個專輔的教師來看,我們大概都達到了93、94%到99%。"},{"start":12982.082,"end":12984.603,"text":"有關於有些學校建議建議就是說"},{"start":13007.458,"end":13008.662,"text":"對不好意思這個我們這邊開會好像有點吵雜對對對"},{"start":13016.16,"end":13040.914,"text":"就是說有些學校跟老師建議說是不是能夠加強一些教師跟行政人員的一些進修的資源為什麼因為現在的學生他們所面臨到環境是變化是非常迅速的如果我們在輔導學生的速度趕不上環境的變化的話那這可能就沒有辦法達到效果是不是可以增加一些進修的資源在學校"},{"start":13042.145,"end":13061.392,"text":"我認為這是我們一直在努力的,因為怎麼樣去快速能夠對老師跟行政同仁的這些專業的一個增能,我想我們一直在做。繼續努力,還有一個就是有關於能不能強制偏差行為的家長去參加親子講座,有可能嗎?"},{"start":13063.639,"end":13088.072,"text":"只要有家長有在學子女,偶爾可以讓他,你們可以努力看看能不能放一個有薪的親職假,讓他們來參加一些學校的輔導的一些相關活動,或者是可以讓他們有機會來學校跟導師溝通,我不知道教育部能不能往這方向去努力?這個方向我們會努力,因為他確實當然有一定的難度,比如說除了我們法律強迫他一定要來,那當然"},{"start":13089.733,"end":13110.649,"text":"讓這一個學生違規的學生家長也能夠來學校不管用什麼樣的方式來參與這個討論或者關心小孩子的發展我覺得這是好事家長也扮演一定很關鍵的角色然後再來就是部長因為我之前是蠻關心校園安全問題上次我之前跟"},{"start":13111.309,"end":13122.811,"text":"前部長溝通這事情我希望在國中徵校安人員那當時有提臨時提案那教育部回我是說完全是風馬牛不相干他說他有增加學生事務副組長"},{"start":13124.824,"end":13152.573,"text":"那我要求增加校園安全人員的主要原因是因為現在的老師你叫他去面對幫派學生他沒有辦法能力去處理嘛那你現在又增加副組長副組長還是一般的老師啊他一樣要去面對這些幫派學生所以不是說能力的問題增加一個兩個三個不是這個重點嘛重點是說你要增加能夠去跟幫派小朋友去跟他對抗去處理他的人員嘛"},{"start":13153.473,"end":13172.454,"text":"所以我希望說教育部能不能再針對我的這樣的一個訴求啊,可以針對我的問題回答,再回我一個報告好不好?那個曾家學務副組長沒有回答到我的問題啊,你知道嗎?部長。謝謝委員的一個關心,確實我們也...而且這也是很多國中的校長、老師跟我反映的啊。"},{"start":13172.754,"end":13198.081,"text":"我非常同意委員事上對國中的現況有相當程度的掌握這也是我們努力在思考看怎麼樣有建構一個更更周詳的一個校園安全的網絡部長因為你也剛報到啦所以我沒有我們沒有說很嚴厲的要求你但是總是要給我們一個期限因為從剛剛到現在你都是說努力的方向但我不知道說這個努力方向是兩年後完成還是三年後完成我現在很具體的問"},{"start":13199.201,"end":13219.262,"text":"因為這個我講很久了在國中增加校安人員這件事情什麼時候可以給一個比較詳細的評估報告因為我們之前也有做臨時提案但是回答就是完全是牛頭不對馬嘴跟我們報告我們確實內部也在研議什麼時候給我一個完整答案一個月可不可以"},{"start":13222.485,"end":13231.49,"text":"因為馬上放暑假了嘛,我是希望說下個學期開始,國中就可以有消安人員,這是很多學校的期望啊。"},{"start":13232.355,"end":13233.075,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":13253.973,"end":13269.441,"text":"我希望你暑假前給我答案好不好,暑假前,八月中,八月中,開學前,好不好,開學前給我答案,到底要不要設校園人員。然後最後我要提醒教育部一件事情喔,就是教育部現在不是有一個從變故以辭典嗎?"},{"start":13270.781,"end":13295.617,"text":"內容非常多,之前有媒體人找到一個詞叫點點點,然後他那個例句叫做一男一女進到房間裡面接下來的事情點點點。我不知道為什麼教育部的例句會有這種有點性暗示的例子。然後還有一個是一個民眾跟我陳情的,密西西比河,你們的例句是密西西比河是美國中部大河,是世界最長河流。"},{"start":13296.477,"end":13311.174,"text":"那那個民眾講說根本不是啊,最長河流是尼羅河啊。對不對,然後有人認為是亞馬遜河,不管是哪一個河都不是密西西比河啊。結果民眾去陳情之後教育部的回文是說,啊這個問題我們要找專家研議一下。"},{"start":13311.835,"end":13319.7,"text":" bicyclipe is not the longest river in the world, why do you need to translate it?"},{"start":13341.995,"end":13370.937,"text":"建議啦教育部因為既然大家對於這個重編國語詞典都有那麼多的意見你們可不可以自己找專家還是什麼重新審視一遍不然你辦一個活動我建議你辦一個活動全民來找查就是說編一點獎勵的措施大家來看國語詞典裡面有沒有什麼解釋不對的或是例句不通的或是例句有一些不適當的只要能夠提供給教育部教育部馬上改而且給予一定獎勵就可以趕快把這個詞典把它修定嘛好不好"},{"start":13371.437,"end":13371.457,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":13398.87,"end":13404.797,"text":"兩位回座,謝謝接下來楊瓊英委員我們列席委員都是四分鐘,謝謝謝謝主席,本席想邀請部長"},{"start":13422.864,"end":13438.579,"text":"市長好,今天各個委員藍綠白都有提出我們的法案出來,但是我們沒有看到行政院版,那到底是為什麼呢?認為不重要還是還來不及?請說明。"},{"start":13443.499,"end":13444.24,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":13458.581,"end":13458.681,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":13479.502,"end":13499.048,"text":"因為大家都知道這個目前是社會家長非常憂心的嘛 對不對家長非常憂心表示我們現在所做的這個政策以及執行的方案是不足以去應對目前所需嘛 對不對那你點頭了那為什麼我們行政院沒有版本呢"},{"start":13499.721,"end":13510.986,"text":"因該說我想我們追求更好的教育品質跟服務品質事實上是一直是我們跟委員都一樣更加關心的所以我們確實在這一個學生輔導法裡面我們有一些根據委員這個請聽民意然後我們也根據委員的意見綜合從比較能夠兼顧理想性也能夠務實的推動"},{"start":13525.572,"end":13527.533,"text":" bicyclopopopopopop"},{"start":13547.145,"end":13550.927,"text":"接下來本席要請教的就是說到目前為止我們的進度國小部分原定120年我們要提前到116年來完成也就是推動學校輔導教師的徵補作業"},{"start":13573.981,"end":13592.338,"text":"國小是如此,國中是提前到114年來完成,目前還是如此嗎?目前我們的政策還是如此嗎?現在要提早到116年,是不是?"},{"start":13598.805,"end":13604.38,"text":"國中式提早要到明年114年我們的政策是不是目前仍舊維持如此?"},{"start":13608.294,"end":13611.558,"text":"因此在我們提案的第11條裡頭,也就是以往我們所謂的專業,但是我們現在認為這個問題非常的嚴肅,所以專業改為專任,你同意吧?"},{"start":13629.83,"end":13642.862,"text":"我們也是一個從這個有專任的輔導人力也有一些專業的輔導人力所以有你們原本的文字上面是專業我們的提案是改為專任所以你還不是很清楚這個論點給你因為時間的關係接下來我要問因為我們原本是1200人那我們現在改為900人同意吧"},{"start":13657.188,"end":13659.27,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員柏毅等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":13678.271,"end":13685.034,"text":"adequate to the current situation in the society, the teachers and the social workers are also suffering."},{"start":13685.034,"end":13693.117,"text":"So, in order to increase the number of people who need help, it is a very important issue."},{"start":13693.117,"end":13697.859,"text":"However, when students are facing the most difficult situation, which is drugs,"},{"start":13698.539,"end":13700.18,"text":"一、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":13723.609,"end":13727.511,"text":"二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":13751.303,"end":13779.379,"text":"方案給本席。好不好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝兩位。接下來我們請邱志偉委員,謝謝。是準時,但你時間實在是太窘迫了,每次只有240秒。"},{"start":13781.331,"end":13791.575,"text":"教育我過去也是資深的我過去做教育委員當過三次召委算資深的大概240秒對於教育問題還沒有啦謝謝主席給我240秒請教育部政部長委員好學生組國教組彭署長跟這個"},{"start":13810.589,"end":13819.312,"text":"請教部長今天那麼多委員提出的版本大概是集中在第4條、第7、第5、第11條委員都關心這個部分那院會有版本嗎?"},{"start":13826.622,"end":13853.069,"text":"議員會有版本嗎?議員會有版本,現在還沒有...會,未來會不會有版本?會,我們在努力。對,你現在就要審了嘛,我不曉得今天會不會進入主條。我是希望如果院有規劃,或是部裡有規劃有相對版本,來整合目前所有委員所提出的版本,那我建議盡快送到立法院來並案審查。"},{"start":13856.456,"end":13872.736,"text":"是的,我們現在就朝這個目標委員關心的在做。我是針對這個第四條的部分,這條部分有關於你們這個輔資中心,輔資中心目前你們看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":13875.176,"end":13902.112,"text":"我們現在有很多的委員希望輔資中心除了專業人力以外這個行政上的一個運作這個主任希望也能夠由專業的這個專輔人員能夠來擔任有豐富經驗的專輔專業人員來擔任所以教育部立場如何?我目前也朝這個方向在修正所以會把委員的版本納入行政院的院版?是"},{"start":13904.46,"end":13905.58,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":13933.67,"end":13950.288,"text":"提議署請鄭署長來我大概一兩個禮拜我就會花很多時間去每個學校我每個會期之前都跟學校的校長做一個座談請他們把這個對彭署長等一下彭署長你一定要"},{"start":13951.363,"end":13952.524,"text":"等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":13968.735,"end":13989.83,"text":"我當然這看我也是專業的我已經看了13年了所以哪些急迫性我會哪些急迫性或者他的優先順序或者是他的這個預算我都有跟這個校長講說這部分你要多請幾家建築師來做更多的這個更合理的這個預算的分配這個我都提示他們"},{"start":13990.811,"end":14008.908,"text":"所以經過我去看的這些學校都是有需求有急迫性有必要性所以我才會拜託這個彭署長跟這個鄭署長他們都有權力協助那我最近我又上上禮拜我又去看了大概七八所學校"},{"start":14009.428,"end":14009.448,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":14024.48,"end":14025.761,"text":"我等你的答案了!"},{"start":14052.354,"end":14078.421,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心 這個教育品質的提升當然都是我們關心的你說好就好了 你說好委員所關心的我們一定會努力來做你說好就不用回答那麼多了 你看我都很準時的好不好 一起來努力一起努力 沒有問題好 謝謝邱志偉委員 謝謝很準時 感謝 下次我給你多三分鐘沒有 對不起 三十秒"},{"start":14079.557,"end":14079.717,"text":"吳宗憲委員"},{"start":14097.509,"end":14119.602,"text":"部長早安,因為我只有4分鐘所以我就很快的收過去,那有一些問題我等一下提出再麻煩貴部能夠給我一些資料,那我研讀之後會再提出一些那個問題或請教的部分那我今天主要是提到的就是有關校園暴力的部分,因為這段時間其實會有一些校園那個學生受害者的家屬會找我"},{"start":14122.295,"end":14123.657,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":14137.372,"end":14166.191,"text":"而福聯盟他也有去調查有超過四分之一的兒少他們都不認為說在學校是安全的其實是26.6%這是非常高耶四個就有一個覺得在校園不安全所以這個應該是我們現在開始要去注意的一個問題那去年那個新北那個少年割喉案其實我們有發現一個問題就是追溯少年犯罪雖然是一個重要的事情但是要怎麼樣修補這個校園安全網還有預防暴力的這個問題"},{"start":14167.572,"end":14172.274,"text":"我其實這段時間我一直請我的助理我們要著重在如何強化校園安全這一塊然後校園的那個輔導體制要怎麼樣協助這些有問題的人回歸校園還有輔導的老師他有沒有足夠的這個能力去面對這群更生的少年"},{"start":14185.461,"end":14207.194,"text":"那我有一個問題就是想請問一下就是目前就是教育部之前到司法法治委員會的報告說少關所的少年啊少關所會通報原就讀校園那如果少年轉學了呢這個原就讀的學校會不會通知下一個學校就我們的這個行政流程是一定會通知的"},{"start":14208.107,"end":14230.17,"text":"有規範嗎?有的話可不可以給我一下?讓我研讀一下。因為我等一下還有一些東西要麻煩你們,就一起補給我。就是他有沒有在通知?因為我有一點擔心,特別他有後面轉學,然後就發生這個中斷的問題。這個我會比較擔心這個部分。因為現在教育部雖然是有一個學生輔導法,"},{"start":14231.411,"end":14255.003,"text":"但是學生輔導法這不適用矯正學校我想部長一定很清楚這一點那現在就是法務部啊他主責的那個少年矯正學校設置還有教育實施通則裡面他雖然是有規範就是出校後的學生要通知地方的教育行政機關但是呢我們這個教育部的學生輔導法卻沒有相關足夠的資料那所以這個會不會造成這個"},{"start":14255.964,"end":14278.473,"text":""},{"start":14280.822,"end":14305.253,"text":"這是說這個教育協調小組在本案到底有沒有運作還是說他不急於少關所出來的這些有問題的少年那第二個就是四月頒布的那個過渡性的教育措施具體協助轉型入校入班的具體措施那種是什麼還有上個月在我們司法法治委員會的報告沒有呈現那這個又過了一個月了嘛那到底有沒有一個執行的方法或是需要其他單位整合"},{"start":14306.153,"end":14312.955,"text":"第三、學生輔導法修法加強輔導機制上面要怎麼樣去配合上面這些辦法要怎麼樣加強輔導怎麼樣協助轉型入校尤其是包括那個增加專任輔導教師還有專業輔導人員分工訓練這些"},{"start":14326.478,"end":14343.013,"text":"厲不厲有包括到矯正輔導的專業師資?這個部分就麻煩提供,因為我覺得這一塊是我目前研究這個校園安全的時候,我覺得這一塊我沒有辦法理解,再麻煩部長一下。還有就是,不好意思我都浪費大家一點點時間,還有這個就三級輔導機制要怎麼樣協助這一類的學生,"},{"start":14347.817,"end":14361.146,"text":"adequare教師還有怎麼樣強化輔導師資這個也一併給我最後10秒鐘我想提到新北哥河岸的家屬其實有來找我這件事情我跟他們談蠻多"},{"start":14363.047,"end":14388.537,"text":"大家很多都是為人父為人母那我們一定很重視小孩子在學校的安全那是不是我提一個就是家屬當時有發表公開發表四個呼籲那其中有一個提到全面檢視校園安全還有學生輔導制度的漏洞真的不要等到問題發生了再回過頭來補救是不是我們在一開始就能夠把他輔導好讓問題不會發生以上是我有一些問題那再麻煩部長能夠"},{"start":14389.977,"end":14393.078,"text":"兩月內把資料都補給我,那我研究再來跟大家討論。謝謝部長。"},{"start":14424.181,"end":14433.708,"text":"委員好部長好部長您是教育家所以本席請教您您知道考古題為什麼它會是考古題嗎?"},{"start":14435.865,"end":14436.766,"text":"：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":14458.962,"end":14484.41,"text":"平均年齡最低的是哪一個縣市?本席知道你來自高雄嘛那你知道全國平均年齡最低是哪一個縣市?受命啊你說平均年齡還是歲數不是受命不是受命是歲數就是說現在國人有平均年齡但是每個縣市也有他的平均年齡您猜看看"},{"start":14488.53,"end":14492.672,"text":"三、審查委員新竹縣等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案 等19人擬具"},{"start":14504.136,"end":14530.234,"text":"更了解新竹縣新竹縣的出出生率也是全國排名第二出出生率也就他第三他的出生率很高出出生率他的人口增加率這個不是遷徙是新生的就是他的人口增加率主要來自新生兒的他新竹縣的人口增加率也是本島排名第二名"},{"start":14531.295,"end":14557.666,"text":"第二名,平均年齡最低,這表示什麼?表示很多的新生兒都在這個縣市,特別在這個縣市,新竹縣的竹北市,特別在竹北市。所以呢,從這裡我想部長您大概就可以慢慢知道本席接下來要講的就是,這一個區塊他們需要的教育的資源是異於全國各縣市的。"},{"start":14558.575,"end":14574.258,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":14574.358,"end":14574.798,"text":"新竹縣新竹縣新竹縣新竹縣新竹縣新竹縣"},{"start":14602.156,"end":14628.613,"text":"當然本席也知道不知道部長您就任之後有沒有了解教育部有新興人口成長區公立高級中學以下的學校校舍這個新建工程計畫也就是說對於這些新興人口特別多的都會特別的來專案補助所以本席首先就在這裡要表達我們的新建校舍校舍新建了以後"},{"start":14629.473,"end":14648.465,"text":"還有他的各種軟硬體設施跟教學設備我們都希望教育部可以特別的來幫助來加強本席也在讓部長了解就是說本席從縣議員到立委這一次第二任當立委這十幾年來呢"},{"start":14649.626,"end":14665.879,"text":"十分鐘車程內新增了五所國小三所國中但是這個教育資源非常的不足包含新竹縣政府他在教育經費的投入107年的101.66億到今年已經到153億了所以本席很快的在這邊說"},{"start":14672.925,"end":14688.077,"text":"小學中學的校舍跟設施需求當這些孩子長大以後我們就出現了高中我們的高中也是非常的不足所以在這個去年今年1月份總統大選前一週"},{"start":14690.399,"end":14705.512,"text":"adequum我們民進黨執政的行政院副院長來到地方也允諾這個要給我們新竹縣的重大公共建設計畫經費總共35億現在已經六月了已經半年過去了最後本席就請教什麼時候會核定這些經費"},{"start":14715.247,"end":14717.428,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":14741.48,"end":14753.004,"text":"所以有將近1700的名額所以這個我們都在掌握中然後委員所關心的那一個國教署也已經報行政院所以這一個35億的經費然後現在過半年了沒有那我非常感謝主席給我這個時間所以拜託我拜託部長好不好不然我們下個會期又要再碰面部長剛剛邱志偉委員說請您說好好不好拜託"},{"start":14771.169,"end":14788.935,"text":"竟然委員對我的一個肯定我既然是一個學教育教育家有一定的一個使命跟承諾只要對學童的教育品質有提升他的急迫性跟重要性我們一定會全力來支持好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝"},{"start":14793.632,"end":14813.74,"text":"那因為啊謝謝部長那今天登記質詢哦對林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員林岳勤委員林岳勤委員林岳勤委員那報告大會我們今天的登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢另外有林益君委員王玉明委員吳村城委員林岳勤委員"},{"start":14814.64,"end":14830.042,"text":"提出書面質詢。關於今天會議我做如下的決議報告及詢答完畢。行政院版本並按審查的時候我們就不再進行詢答。委員所提出的書面"},{"start":14831.344,"end":14851.605,"text":"質詢或相關資料請列入記錄並且刊登公報。對於委員質詢所要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分,我們請相關機關經過書面作出答覆。學生輔導法相關草案我們另外定期來繼續審查。報告委員會,今天的議程處理完畢,我們現在散會。謝謝各位。"}]}},{"id":"16033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16033","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685cf5366a7ae6bcaf7b761654f0ebe352d627684c85f64cd7b9e9f25c6e91c015d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：確認上次會議議事錄。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-06-26","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-06-26T08:31:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:03:00+08:00","duration":1905,"影片長度":"00:31:45","委員發言時間":"08:31:15 - 09:03:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第22次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":22,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-22"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.46221875000003,"end":402.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.83284375000005,"end":404.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1726.51221875,"end":1732.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1732.0303437500002,"end":1894.7728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1788.3084687500002,"end":1788.6290937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1895.4309687500001,"end":1895.4478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1895.4478437500002,"end":1899.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1901.0503437500001,"end":1903.4803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1903.83471875,"end":1908.9647187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":399.582,"end":401.971,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1726.553,"end":1739.803,"text":"出席委員已足法定人數我們現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年6月13日星期四9時1分至10時57分地點群憲樓801會議室出席委員盧先一等15人列席委員侯孟凱等15人"},{"start":1749.651,"end":1766.334,"text":"就業服務法列席官員、勞動部部長何佩珊等相關人員、老人福利法列席官員、衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員、主席王兆吉委員育敏,報告事項,宣讀上次會議議事錄,決定確定,討論事項第一案及第二案。"},{"start":1767.436,"end":1789.916,"text":"繼續審查,委員林德夫等19人,委員楊瓊英等16人,委員馬文君等25人,委員屠春吉等17人,委員黃建斌等20人,委員呂玉玲等16人,委員盧憲義等17人,委員鄭正前等17人,委員王玉敏等17人分別擬聚,就業服務法部分條文修正草案等9案,以及審查委員張家俊等30人,"},{"start":1790.737,"end":1805.56,"text":"委員王宏威等22人委員鄭天才等16人分別擬聚就業服務法第46條條文修正草案等3案本次會議經委員張家俊及鄭天才說明提案指去113年5月27日及29日第11屆第1會期本會第18次全體委員會議委員盧先一蘇清泉廖偉翔鄭天才等4人委員林月琴楊耀黃秀芳等3人委員黃秀芳劉建國等5人"},{"start":1819.142,"end":1837.931,"text":"分別提出《就業服務法》第46條條文修正動議委員林月琴等5人提出《就業服務法》第55條條文修正動議共4案。決議除1除委員圖春吉等17人擬拒《就業服務法》部分條文修正草案及委員李玉玲等16人擬拒《就業服務法》第46條及第55條條文修正草案"},{"start":1841.232,"end":1845.696,"text":"令則其繼續審查外,就業服務法第46條條文修正草案等10案,審查完均,條文及附帶決議均保留,並按已據審查報告提報院會討論,院會討論時由王兆吉委員欲明補充說明,須交黨團協商。2.保留之修正動議3案3.保留之附帶決議3項,討論事項第3案"},{"start":1865.252,"end":1874.378,"text":"繼續審查委員徐以珍等22人委員馬文君等16人委員張家俊等20人國民黨黨團委員黃建豪等17人委員王玉敏等19人臺灣民眾黨黨團分別拟據老人福利法條文修正草案等7案決議老人福利法條文修正草案等7案審查完均條文均保留並按拟據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論時由王兆吉委員玉敏補充說明"},{"start":1895.472,"end":1898.853,"text":"好 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Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等18人分別擬具加值型及非加值型營業稅法第8條條文修正草案等3案。審查加值型及非加值型營業稅法六案本院委員鄭宏慕等22人擬具加值型及非加值型營業稅法第6條之一及第8條條文修正草案"},{"start":1929.393,"end":1951.404,"text":"本院委員林思明等27人、委員何孟凱等18人、委員郭玉琴等18人、委員陳金輝等17人分別擬具:「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第8條條文修正草案 等4案。」本院委員林楚英等18人擬具:「加值型及非加值型營業稅法第32條之1及第48條之2條文修正草案 等4案。決議一審查結果"},{"start":1952.785,"end":1975.147,"text":"第6條之一、第32條之一、徵定第48條之二、第50條均照行政院提案通過,而第8條全案保留送院會處理,而行政院函請審議、加值型及非加值型營業稅法部分條文修正草案、本院委員林楚英等18人擬具、加值型及非加值型營業稅法第32條之一及第48條之二條文修正草案等2案。審查完略"},{"start":1975.868,"end":1994.14,"text":"並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論,院會討論前不須交由黨團協商,院會討論時由羅昭及委員明才補充說明。3本院委員張宏祿等22人擬具加執行及非加執行一頁稅法第6條之一及第8條條文修正草案案。繼台灣民眾黨黨團委員黃潔等17人、委員吳宗憲等18人、委員林思明等27人、委員洪孟楷等18人、委員郭怡情等18人及委員陳金輝等17人分別擬具"},{"start":2002.466,"end":2010.752,"text":"加值型及非加值型音樂稅法第8條條文修正草案等7案審查完均並按擬具審查報告提報應會討論應會討論權需交由黨團協商應會討論時由羅昭君委員明裁補充說明通過臨時提案一案113年6月19日討論事項"},{"start":2021.039,"end":2047.495,"text":"一、繼續審查財政收支劃分法17案。一、本院臺灣民政黨黨團擬具財政收支劃分法修正草案。二、本院國民黨黨團委員文明財等23人、委員林思明等20人、委員徐宇臻等16人、委員洪孟凱等22人、委員丁學章等17人分別擬具財政收支劃分法部分條文修正草案等6案。二、本院委員吳立華等17人擬具財政收支劃分法第三條條文修正草案。四、本院委員"},{"start":2048.776,"end":2068.622,"text":"陳奕臻等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條條文修正草案五本院委員黃建豪等21人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第20條條文修正草案六本院委員王宏威等24人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條第12條及第30條條文修正草案七本院委員陳昌明等17人、委員邱正軍等19人分別擬具"},{"start":2069.442,"end":2090.096,"text":"財政稅租劃分法第8條、第12條及第16條之一挑嚴修正草案等2案八、本院委員賴岳陽等16人、委員蔡玉儀等16人分別擬具財政稅租劃分法第16條之一挑嚴修正草案等2案九、本院委員賴世保等29人擬具財政稅租劃分法第16條之二、第37條之二及第38條之二挑嚴修正草案十、本院委員"},{"start":2091.056,"end":2118.607,"text":"賴思寶等22人擬具財政收支劃分法第38條之一條人修正草案二、審查財政收支劃分法3案一、本院委員張家俊等27人擬具財政收支劃分法第4條、第8條及第12條條人修正草案二、本院委員楊瓊英等32人擬具財政收支劃分法第8條及第37條條人修正草案三、本院委員鄭天財等18人擬具財政收支劃分法增定第30條之一及第30條之二條人修正草案決議"},{"start":2119.767,"end":2123.289,"text":"令則其繼續審查通過臨時提案4案宣讀完畢審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具:「所得稅法部分條文修正草案等3案。」宣讀完畢"},{"start":2144.807,"end":2172.423,"text":"好原理介紹在場委員與與會官員首先要介紹林德福委員吳秉瑞委員顏寬恒委員財政部部長莊翠雲部長法制處黃惠玲代理處長國庫署陳柏成署長稅務署宋秀琳署長"},{"start":2174.434,"end":2196.267,"text":"官務署童英偉署長國有財產署曾國基署長財政資訊中心張文希主任臺北國稅局吳蓮英局長北區國稅局李怡惠局長行政院人事行政總處張雅惠專門委員法務部林豐文參事"},{"start":2207.093,"end":2225.549,"text":"好,接著依次安排審查行政院函請審議、所得稅法部分條文修正草案等3案將先請提案委員說明提案要旨後,再請財政部莊部長說明並回應委員提案內容首先我們請提案委員顏寬恒、顏委員說明提案要旨三分鐘"},{"start":2240.845,"end":2257.202,"text":"主席、各位立席官員大家好本席還有徐宇峥委員等20人為了稅制的健全、完善租稅的公平所得稅法目前採扣繳制度,包含營利事業負責人、機關、團體及自然人為扣繳義務人"},{"start":2260.646,"end":2269.538,"text":"本席的版本徵定行政法人信託行為之受託人應管理處分信託財產給付屬扣繳範圍所得時應依規定扣繳稅款為了確保"},{"start":2276.262,"end":2292.951,"text":"稅務及扣繳意義的遵守維護國家稅收的完整性徵訂行政法人給付該款規定應由扣繳因人依規定扣繳稅額藉此加強稅收管理增高"},{"start":2294.772,"end":2317.812,"text":"稅務遵從度並減輕稅務機關的積財壓力另外,破產財團的管理人作為破產財團的管理者負責管理破產財團的資產並支付相關債務應當承擔扣繳醫務人的角色為了確保在破產程序中涉及的款項支付同樣符合稅收法規的要求"},{"start":2318.613,"end":2342.979,"text":"使扣繳醫務人醫務及責任更符合行政法上醫務之適則一致原則並配合扣繳醫務人及計政機關實務作業需要破產財團之管理人應為扣繳醫務人藉此才能有效配合計政機關的實務作業需要保障國家的稅收及時足額"},{"start":2343.979,"end":2366.014,"text":"第92條當中的修正是為了配合實務作業需要,如果代扣稅款欲連續國定假日時,增訂期間得延長之規定。最後,所得稅預現任未繳納者,其自納處罰方式係根據稅捐基準法第20條規定來處理,為稅捐基準法已於111年1月1日調整自納金加徵率,"},{"start":2374.039,"end":2385.538,"text":"故所得稅法應隨之調整以上說明好 謝謝顏寬恒委員的說明接著我們請財政部莊部長說明並回應委員提案的內容"},{"start":2394.349,"end":2417.232,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、大家早。今天貴委員會審查行政院函請審議、還有大院政委員天財等17人以及委員顏寬恒等20人所分別擬具的所得稅法部分條文修正草案等3案。本人誠邀列席致感榮幸以下警究草案內容檢要提出報告進行指教。"},{"start":2417.847,"end":2435.805,"text":"首先就行政院函請審議的草案做重點說明為了使政府及時獲取稅收便利國庫資金的調度並且能夠完整掌握課稅的資料所得稅法設有扣繳制度那麼則由法定扣繳義務人依照規定來扣繳稅款以及填報及填發平單"},{"start":2438.127,"end":2465.956,"text":"沒有依規定辦理的話就依照規定要來做處罰那為人能讓所得稅能夠及時的徵起稅收掌握課稅資料及稅源的重要制度他是一個重要的一個制度而扣繳義務人的尊崇的程度也是決定扣繳制度成敗的關鍵因素我們為了優化扣繳制度所以這一次擬定了做了相關條文的一個修正重點如下第一個我們修正扣繳義務人的範圍由己父所得的事業"},{"start":2466.636,"end":2492.338,"text":"他的負責人還有機關或團體他其責應扣繳單位主管等自然人改為事業、機關或團體的本身第二個部分我們是徵定非居住者扣繳稅款的繳納還有平單申報以及填發的期限如果遇到連續3天以上的國定假日可以延長為5天第三個是修正沒有依規定填報或填發平單的罰則"},{"start":2494.279,"end":2512.23,"text":"賦予基徵機關可以在一定的財閥金額範圍內橫著具體個案的偽章情節輕重給予不同程度處罰的一個財量權。第四個考量居住者扣繳作業是採年度申報為了使扣繳義務人能夠充分了解修正後的規定"},{"start":2513.491,"end":2526.36,"text":"並具與辦理扣繳作業,而且相關聲報、書表以及系統也需要配合的修正,所以我們認為應該要預留適當的準備時間,所以明定這一次的修正條文施行日期由行政院定之。"},{"start":2527.827,"end":2551.765,"text":"那這一次修法的預期效益呢是把事業、機關、團體、給付所得的扣繳義務由他本身承擔那麼讓權責可以相符還有遇到連續假期合理延長非居住者的扣繳稅款報繳期限來減輕扣繳義務人的作業負荷另外就是積增機關可以是偽章情節的輕重給予不同程度的處罰來維護120萬家扣繳單位的權益有關大院委員所擬具的"},{"start":2558.391,"end":2562.436,"text":"提案和行政院的版本大致相同只是將其中條文的機關修正為機關構考量中央行政機關組織基準法第三條第三款的規定"},{"start":2575.794,"end":2597.427,"text":"機構是機關依照組織法規把他部分的權限及職長劃出來達成其設立目的的組織那麼準用該法的規定所以本質上仍然是屬於所得稅法所稱的機關的一環那麼現行的文字在實務執行上並沒有疑慮所以建請支持行政院的版本第二有關顏委員寬恒等20人提案"},{"start":2600.168,"end":2612.958,"text":"與巡政院的版本大致相同只是在第112條保留滯納金的加徵方式以及移送強制執行的規定以及沒有修正第114條、114之3條及1126條鑒於現行滯納金的加徵方式還有移送強制執行的規定已經在稅捐積增法裡面的第20條做了統一的規範所以我們建議不要在這裡重複的規定來簡化稅法的規範"},{"start":2628.05,"end":2637.518,"text":"所以建請本條及還有其餘沒有修正的條文都能夠支持行政院的版本以上的報告及說明敬請各位委員指教與支持謝謝"},{"start":2638.646,"end":2665.182,"text":"好,謝謝莊部長的說明。針對本次討論事項,現在開始詢答。先做一下宣告。每位出席委員發言時間為8分鐘,必要時的延長2分鐘。每位列席委員發言時間為5分鐘,必要時的延長1分鐘。今日上午10時30分截止發言登記。本次會議若有其他相關東西請盡送主席臺收件,被立後後續審查程序。現在依照登記順序請登記第一位林德福委員資訊。"},{"start":2675.959,"end":2680.022,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請財政部莊部長有請莊部長我也好部長你好部長我請教因為對岸就是中國商務部這個月15日起終止134項ECFA找收清單的零關稅的優惠那"},{"start":2702.151,"end":2724.593,"text":"臺灣機械工業工會推估臺灣機械設備年出口值將因此減少1.1億到1.4億左右美元1.1億到1.4億左右的美元在中國市占下滑4%到5%那我請問部長針對中資ECFA早收清單"},{"start":2726.214,"end":2751.63,"text":"這個凌關稅的做法你認為國內產業是不是都做好避嫌的這些措施呢?有沒有?跟委員報告對於終止ECFA134項以及加上今年1月終止的12項總共有146項那終止這個凌關稅的優惠以後呢事實上就會回復到一般的稅率就是最低是2%最高到17.5當然"},{"start":2753.007,"end":2758.194,"text":"對於這一些產業會有影響跟衝擊那這個部分產業主管機關經濟部呢我們相信他已經在做相關的協助、輔導以及協助我們的廠商然後來做一些調整這個部分經濟部是會做相關的措施的"},{"start":2770.031,"end":2791.425,"text":"川部長,雖然蔡前總統和賴總統都明確地宣示走進世界是台灣未來產業該走的路而不是再次走回依賴大陸的老路但是所謂產業該走的路,請問部長,你認為產業該走的路道路標示都很明確清楚了嗎?"},{"start":2793.527,"end":2800.854,"text":"跟委員報告對於有關產業的部分尤其是受到衝擊的中小企業還有傳統產業其實經濟部就了解他們其實一直在輔導這些產業做一些產業的升級"},{"start":2807.754,"end":2829.695,"text":"來提高他的競爭力不管是數位的轉型或淨零的但是有的沒有辦法升級有的是傳統產業阿是傳統產業那所以這個部分經濟部會協力輔導他們做產業的升級我相信數位的轉型對他們來說是很重要第一個可以提高營運的效率降低營運的成本那經濟部在這個方面會去加重的著力另外也就是在增加其他的"},{"start":2831.716,"end":2849.345,"text":"議長,你以前在我們整個東南亞的市場根本就做不出去,也推不出去,還是應該要走的路根本沒有鋪好,所以說很多產業感受到窮途末路的不安,有沒有?"},{"start":2851.039,"end":2862.256,"text":"這個部分呢就我了解經濟部其實有跟相關的產業都在做座談了解他們的一些困難在哪裡然後給予相關的輔導那相關的具體的措施我想經濟部可以做更詳細的說明"},{"start":2864.124,"end":2889.025,"text":"因為我們超徵其實尤其包括我們很多就是在整個貿易順差其實跟對岸的貿易佔40%左右那去年前年大前年其實都是對岸40%的貿易額我們幾乎都是順差啦那在全球"},{"start":2890.907,"end":2916.488,"text":"在貿易全球化的時代臺灣的產業想要做全世界的生意除了強化自身的產品品質特色和安全外加入區域的整個經濟組織這個是很重要和簽署自由貿易協定來肯定其必要性但是這些年臺灣與其他國家洽簽的自由貿易協定的進度緩慢"},{"start":2918.23,"end":2940.71,"text":"宣傳多餘實質、宣傳多年的加入CPTPP跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定到現在沒有一些具體的進展就連宣稱與關係友好的美國跟日本跟澳洲簽訂FTA還是看不到結果"},{"start":2941.67,"end":2950.715,"text":"那我請問部長你認為加入區域經濟組織簽署自由貿易協定進度的遲緩的原因是到底是什麼當然加入國際的一個區域的經貿的組織然後簽訂自由貿易協定是非常重要的那可以對我們的廠商拓展外銷市場提高競爭力但是我們都進不去啊有關這個部分相關經貿協定的簽署是由行政院經貿談判辦公室來統籌處理"},{"start":2971.446,"end":2999.675,"text":"那如果需要本部參與相關的評估本部也會參加那相關談判的進度呢還是由這個辦公室來統一我知道但是齁只有對外宣傳而已實際上都沒有實質啊到現在都是原地踏步然後每一次講都說有有有那有人家都進去了同事跟我們進去的這些國家都進去了我們還在那裡原地踏步啦參加這些相關組織我想需要一定的努力以及一些時間"},{"start":3001.256,"end":3020.616,"text":"來溝通跟協調是那個遙遙無期啦部長如果因為ECFA終止其他這個經貿協定又遙遙無期那我請問政府要怎樣來協助這些遙遙遇罪的產業面對這種看不到前方那去找該走的路你認為我們要怎麼做"},{"start":3021.697,"end":3025.72,"text":"根委員報告,其實台灣的相關的產業具有這個關鍵性的一個地位的,譬如說半導體、自動訊產品,那我們要鞏固我們這方面的一個競爭優勢。這是對於有優勢的部分,我們要鞏固我們的競爭優勢。那對於比較目前來說傳統產業,而且它要,裡面要照顧很多員工,對不對?"},{"start":3044.612,"end":3048.677,"text":"政府要輔導他們做一些產業的升級我剛剛提過就是像數位的轉型跟淨零的轉型這樣他們在國際上的競爭力可以提升讓他們可以取得比較好的一個地位然後擴展他們的一些市場這是主要的做法"},{"start":3060.612,"end":3079.918,"text":"我再請教因為財政部阮次長上個月中表示美台相關法案還是要等美國國會通過那台灣方面一直努力的推動但是財政部無法預估美國國會的整個時程那我請問部長因為"},{"start":3082.351,"end":3086.281,"text":"臺美租稅協定的推動時程,你認為這一屆的國會改選前有沒有機會通過?"},{"start":3091.633,"end":3115.172,"text":"因為他們馬上在11月5號就要舉行總統大選也要進行參眾兩院國會的改選短短4個多月的時間部長你認為臺美租稅協定能夠列為美國優先的法案這些急迫性的法案敢在118屆就是在美國這一屆的任期結束前來通過嗎?你認為可不可能?"},{"start":3115.832,"end":3129.369,"text":"跟委員報告臺美避免所得稅雙重協定這個ADTA的一個法案他是包裹在一個大的法案裡面但是兩黨的國會議員對我們這個法案並沒有不同意見只是包裹法案裡面有一個國內的稅法他們有意見那他們不過我們都過不了啦"},{"start":3134.174,"end":3150.42,"text":"這個部分當然我們的駐美代表處一直和國會議員這邊在溝通看看有沒有什麼其他的方式那我想這個部分因為也碰到今年11月美國的一個大選但是我們也並沒有那這一屆沒有過的話還要再等下一屆又重新開始是不是這樣子"},{"start":3151.661,"end":3152.902,"text":"會不會台灣恐怕會面臨119屆美國國會重新檢視協定的機率會比較大?"},{"start":3168.22,"end":3169.661,"text":"下一屆會不會這樣子?部長,像這些租稅協定"},{"start":3189.992,"end":3210.904,"text":"我們為了保障我們的產業能夠很順利的能夠生存我認為這個很重要因為人家免稅我們要稅你說怎麼競爭大家心知肚明部長因為行政院禮拜一召開新清安的全面檢討會議會後卻說相關對策的決議"},{"start":3216.892,"end":3236.697,"text":"定案後將會適時對外來說明那請問部長新青安黃袋衍生催化草黃亂象行政院是不是打算踩煞車有沒有委員報告對新青安是不是引起相關的人頭或轉租戶這個部分我們的供股行庫第一個會強化貸錢的一個爭審"},{"start":3239.005,"end":3253.167,"text":"以及代後的追蹤管理另外對新代戶要求他提具切結書那至於目前來說各部會在盤點相關的一些做法以後行政院會做政策性的決定那我想很快的決定以後也會對外做說明那個部長"},{"start":3254.389,"end":3283.022,"text":"因為上個禮拜宣布說八大航庫新青安黃帶三項共識是不是太過嚴苛所以受到關切因而打算暫緩執行會不會這樣子跟委員報告新青安政策的利益是良善的也就是協助沒有自有住宅房或者親戚朋友們買房然後政府幫他一把這個利益是絕對好但是不能成為炒作房地產以及做轉租或借人頭是不能做這個工具部長"},{"start":3288.083,"end":3305.708,"text":"央行表示確實去調查宮古行庫的新清安房貸主要有些房產是在父母的名下但是以子女作為借款人那我請問部長就央行調查宮古行庫的結果移民瞭解這樣的比重高不高"},{"start":3307.237,"end":3329.322,"text":"到目前為止我們央行的比重高不高並沒有就了解並沒有這個情形啊房產沒有這種情形的因為他的母親他的父母如果有房子根本就不能適用清安貸款可以啦父母有房子捏他是父母的名字登記在父母的名下的話那他是不行的啊對"},{"start":3332.106,"end":3350.367,"text":"部長,你要了解清楚一點啦!不是阿,他的登記在父母的名下那就不能拿去銀行貸阿是啊,如果現在這個父母他自己本身有房子然後自己父母又去買一間房子因為他在父母的名下但是以子女作為借款人"},{"start":3352.25,"end":3369.438,"text":"以子女﹑子女作為借款人﹑借款人跟抵押人應該﹑應該是﹑對﹑可以不一樣﹑但是這個部分﹑你要去瞭解清楚啦﹑部長﹑目前並沒有,央行並沒有這種情形﹑你們這樣不能換款是吧﹑對啊﹑"},{"start":3375.693,"end":3386.607,"text":"就是說我們跟公股銀行了解結果目前的新清安貸款並沒有借款人是侄女而單保的房產登記在父母的名下並沒有這樣的情形"},{"start":3388.128,"end":3414.52,"text":"因為黃代檢討經濟措施限制黃代補貼政策多種管道的政策推動下導致信用膨脹的危機對於這些投機心態高而且占政府補貼黃代便宜的人頭戶你認為是不是應該無條件溯及既往來追究還是才可能達到嚇阻這些草房的外風還是要考量個案的狀況予以斟酌"},{"start":3416.312,"end":3433.559,"text":"對於不符合清安貸款而是屬於人頭或轉租這個情形,一定會依照規定來做出來?依規定?對,一定依照規定。它就不符合資格,但是它冒用這樣的資格就不符合。我是認為在這方面你們要好好的去處理啦。是。好,謝謝委員。謝謝林德福委員的諮詢,接著我們請吳秉樂委員諮詢。"},{"start":3453.359,"end":3456.041,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部專部長委員好不想找齁剛剛延續剛剛那個話題齁因為我們中華民國台灣的不動產是財登記主義公事公信是所以如果你是要用清單貸款的話那你一定是"},{"start":3481.731,"end":3506.484,"text":"這個自己或是配偶或是你的子女40歲以下然後沒有房子的才可以適用清安貸款他爸爸媽媽譬如說這個年輕人35歲他的爸爸媽媽也沒有房子這是另外一件事但是這個年輕人本身他跟他的配偶以及他的子女不能夠有房子可以適用清安"},{"start":3507.608,"end":3532.926,"text":"然後因為清安是購買房屋的房屋貸款所以以購買房屋的登記人符不符合這個條件才能夠借款給他啦所以基本上不存在說年輕人符合清安然後買房子登記在爸爸媽媽名下不可以啦因為這樣子的話就不符合清安的規定啦"},{"start":3533.695,"end":3539.96,"text":"現在會發生爭議的就是說同財共居假設有一個年輕人22歲然後他本身沒有要買房子但是他爸爸媽媽想替他買房子為他買房子啦所以就用這個清歡去幫他買一戶"},{"start":3560.339,"end":3562.901,"text":"當然是買這個年輕人的名字但是他把它租給別人啦"},{"start":3588.746,"end":3589.887,"text":"這個部分公國航庫已經在做清理了"},{"start":3606.802,"end":3632.836,"text":"對於高風險的案件我們會逐步去了解也就是說像這種情況其實他有出租就不符合清安貸款因為清安貸款是希望年輕人買了以後自住使用是啦但是這個中間的確會存在爭議啦我舉一個例子我本來要自住啊可是我本來22歲大學畢業準備要自住在新莊我的選居新莊假設我是假設齁我買了一副房子結果後來在新竹的台積電找到工作"},{"start":3634.087,"end":3654.565,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3655.373,"end":3674.42,"text":"那你這個配套要更完整要更有其他的想法我們現在因為房價高漲政府宣誓要打草房所以就很多人有道理也好沒道理也好都把這個理由都歸注到這個房地產上面來而且其實我覺得已經在我來看我也替年輕人覺得很惋惜"},{"start":3682.776,"end":3709.697,"text":"因為現在因為清安貸款的原因清安貸款的補助有限嘛那所以在大台北地區的房子就越蓋越小間啊現在都蓋到十幾平了扣掉公車跟套房一樣啊其實那個居住的空間真的已經是跟上一代的爸爸媽媽更上一代的阿公阿嬤的那個空間小很多了欸有時候覺得說哇這個這個平宿的房子怎麼住人啊怎麼有辦法一個好好的將來年輕人也會想要成家嘛"},{"start":3710.838,"end":3737.866,"text":"他如果娶了太太兩個好不好生了一個小寶貝或兩個小寶貝那一間房子實在真的是不夠住當然這是另外的話但是因為就是有這個補貼使得再加上你們那個豪宅的那個政策金額多少以上央行的政策金額多少以上貸款成數下降等等還為了銷售的方便所以這些"},{"start":3738.993,"end":3760.289,"text":"不動產的這些規劃建設公司房子越蓋越小間那個每一間的坪數都很小捏那某一個角度也是為了政府的政策我為了要配合清安啊那你清安能夠補貼的金額就是這樣啊所以我除了一部分的自備管之外其他的貸款就要適用清安所以我那個房子的總價就設計一千出頭萬那在大台北地區"},{"start":3764.585,"end":3769.175,"text":"臺北市當然不太可能新北市像我那個地方那房子大概就是十幾二十平欸"},{"start":3772.368,"end":3774.99,"text":"其實這裏面有很多的問題現在年輕人就算這樣子清單貸款要買房子通常他的前面的這個自備款家長如果有能力也會給予幫忙"},{"start":3799.395,"end":3827.893,"text":"沒有錯,這是家長會多少會給但是這個就會演發出世代的這個阿的好命阿嘛被網友講得最難聽的說會投胎的好命阿就爸爸媽媽可以給的這個幫忙很大所以他很年輕就能買房子阿如果本身的家境本身就沒有那麼好的他要買房子就變得比較困難阿這比較心理之下就會變成一個大家心理的不平衡阿"},{"start":3829.144,"end":3829.487,"text":"這也是會研發社會問題"},{"start":3832.628,"end":3858.56,"text":"所以有關房屋的這個有或是住宅的部分政府其實是多管齊下比如說新建社會住宅或者採取包租貸款還有公益出租人的出租方式那都是用租的方式當然用買的方式那政府就幫他一把在徵期的過程中可以幫助部長你有沒有想過我們台灣跟日本比起來一樣是東亞國家的這個年輕人日本人租屋的比例之高"},{"start":3859.44,"end":3865.378,"text":"那台灣人自由住宅要買房子的比例這麼高你有沒有覺得這兩中間的差異是什麼?"},{"start":3866.971,"end":3889.777,"text":"可能我們一直有一個有土私有財這樣的一個觀念吧那你有沒有統計過台灣的自有住宅的比例高達多少?蠻高的大概數字我不太記得70幾%快要80%啦對差不多有這樣的一個數字自有住宅因為大家覺得有自有的住宅可能會覺得很好所以要講清楚喔這個立場要講清楚是打草房不是打房喔因為你如果打房喔80%將近80%的國人有自有住宅捏"},{"start":3893.823,"end":3911.946,"text":"所以其實政府的政策是在打草房就是不能做投機的行為但是就是說並不是在打房因為房屋市場是要健康依序的一個發展我講一個開玩笑的啦我這一下這個是有點小開玩笑但是也是事實全世界打房最成功的政權是哪裡你知道嗎中國中國共產黨把他的房子在中國打房折價腰斬一半都還沒人要所以"},{"start":3923.588,"end":3944.914,"text":"經濟的發展從健康的角度來看它本來就會伴隨著一點點的物價膨脹我以前在這個地方說過每年的CPI如果是2%是現在世界總體經濟學家認為最好的超過3是不要因為那是通貨膨脹低於1也不要因為會通貨緊縮啦"},{"start":3947.817,"end":3971.519,"text":"中國現在就面臨通貨緊縮的問題通貨緊縮比通貨膨脹更可怕 為什麼因為通貨膨脹是我現在不趕快去消費明天、後天、明年、後年物價越來越高我怕我買不起現在台灣有一點點這樣的預期心理可是通貨緊縮更可怕是我就要忍住不消費因為我越晚消費越便宜"},{"start":3972.611,"end":3978.756,"text":"所以整個消費會急速的盪下來盪下來之後還更惡性循環我今天買100塊的下個禮拜會變成99塊下個月會變成98塊到了年底剩95塊明年剩90塊那我是不是就盡量忍我越晚消費就賺越多啊所以偷貨緊縮會帶來整個經濟的窒息量"},{"start":3997.405,"end":4024.27,"text":"中國現在是這樣的狀況你有沒有看到這個稅很可怕喔中國的稅中央地方今年度到現在5月減了5.91%换算成人民幣他是少收了2點多兆的這個稅金當然中國的經濟量體非常的大但是你想想看這樣子前面5個月就減收這樣給他算過他可能今年會"},{"start":4025.646,"end":4047.202,"text":"整個撿起來有可能撿到將近10兆的稅金喔那是非常非常驚人的數字那如果這個不趕快解決,過兩年他的經濟真的可能會崩潰啊那再加上他現在面臨的國際上面的這些制裁的壓力在美國對於他又要支持俄羅斯去侵略烏克蘭歐盟、美國都對他要動手"},{"start":4048.775,"end":4074.077,"text":"所以坦白講我很看不好啦他如果渡過這個硬著陸都很有問題啊所以我的意思說處理這些事情都是要很小心的要一環一環而且觀念要正確有人看到CPI說怎麼會物價上漲然後就隨便扣帽子說怎麼物價都漲然後工資都不漲明明工資就有漲他看不見"},{"start":4076.158,"end":4077.439,"text":"謝謝委員的諮詢 接著我們請賴世保委員諮詢"},{"start":4119.234,"end":4124.355,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請財政部的莊部長有請莊部長委員好部長你好今年的稅收看起來還是超收你增加稅漲了21%現在來講大概這個"},{"start":4146.653,"end":4158.786,"text":"民目上的是增加,民目上是1590億那現在禁止到五月份是1590億我到四月底是1156億"},{"start":4162.256,"end":4185.019,"text":"從第1個稅到4月底165億都增加中所稅今年增加了大概10%左右從6千億到7千億銀所稅稍微差一點看起來這個到現在為止半年了這個還不到半年都增加了對不對增加稅增加的蠻多的增加21%"},{"start":4188.201,"end":4188.861,"text":"財政委員報告財政委員報告"},{"start":4213.849,"end":4226.012,"text":"比我們當時在預估的時候的一個日均量到3500億是高很多那我想這個部分因為在預估計上我們原來預估是一天是3500億日均量是3500億那現在大概平均數達到4900多億有時候都會超過5000億所以這個部分的股市的一個熱絡稅帶動了證交稅的一個收取的一個數額"},{"start":4242.236,"end":4265.642,"text":"所以是比去年增加所以到今年我可以增加多少今年如果您是指整體還是整體整體來說目前看起來整體來說以中央數來說到5月底我們是增加了比去年增加561億那中央數是增加485億比去年增加那以整體來看的話今年要達到我們的稅收的預算數應該是可以達得到"},{"start":4266.722,"end":4283.194,"text":"對,可以答應到可是還要到9月還有一個影鎖稅的一個站腳稅款進來那也跟委員報告影鎖稅在今年的稅收呢到5月底為止事實上是比去年少的是比去年少在影鎖稅的部分全國數是2923億比去年少了400多億比去年少400多億因為112年的"},{"start":4291.46,"end":4305.585,"text":"所以我能不能這樣估你5到5月底為止大概增加500多億所以一個月就增加100多億如果加上9月份的暫繳款加起來今年可望"},{"start":4307.208,"end":4333.169,"text":"超徵大概兩千億差不多當然我今年是今年會今年的預算數達成是沒有問題應該也會超過至於超過多少我覺得要到下半年會比較明朗你剛剛講五月底為止是五百多嘛那我就平均就一個月就一百多啊那九月份你要個佔繳款啊就這樣把你加起來啊差不多一千五到兩千之間差不多這樣子嘛"},{"start":4334.138,"end":4337.54,"text":"所以你們更應該多一點錢給地方政府啦好 我講今天的題目喔你們今天有一條要修這個所得稅法 有一條"},{"start":4361.063,"end":4362.904,"text":"請我們副書長來說明"},{"start":4385.666,"end":4413.172,"text":"報告委員,這個條文是從以前就是這樣的規定,主要的原因,各位有報告,我跟委員報告緣由之後,然後我們討論的時候,大家再來看看怎麼處理,它主要的原因是因為我們說的政府機關,它的責任它有,譬如我們變預算,假設它被處罰,它還是要變預算,左口袋右口袋的問題,所以當時我們對政府機關的部分是用行政責任,簡單講就是上級機關對下級機關,它繼續"},{"start":4415.572,"end":4415.872,"text":"其實清安專案"},{"start":4443.805,"end":4445.269,"text":"這個是當初賴清德總統在選總統的時候"},{"start":4448.854,"end":4475.916,"text":"他提出了兩個矛盾的一個政策一個屯房稅2.0不為壓力你看那時候我們在議場提了十幾個版本財政部硬不同意不要不要不要結果那間的一聲令下就推過了屯房稅2.0抑制炒房結果現在又推一個清安專案現在火熱的不得了到現在為止你看關谷的航空就帶出去了4700多億"},{"start":4478.357,"end":4500.572,"text":"主要是什麼?主要你看環管權限從30年到40年寬限期就是只有付利息不要付本金的3到5年這個剛剛幾個委員講我都覺得我馬上想到會不會投機啊你不管父母父母即便有5棟房子他可以用他小孩的名字再買一棟"},{"start":4502.441,"end":4512.238,"text":"再買一棟然後去做什麼事情都可能請問你啊清安貸款他買的房子以後能不能賣"},{"start":4513.854,"end":4518.135,"text":"姓安貸款他買了房子以後是可以移轉﹖可以移轉啊!住長你找房啊!囤房稅2.0他的目的是讓我們的房屋稅的持有稅合理化目的也是希望房屋不要空置而應該做有效利用同時我們進入中國規劃"},{"start":4535.379,"end":4539.881,"text":"但是他可以賣啊!他一樣可以賣啊!比如說這個爸爸已經有五棟房子了,你看到這個有氣可乘,他又用兒子的名字講"},{"start":4557.811,"end":4558.031,"text":"來!那個部長啊!"},{"start":4585.905,"end":4608.335,"text":"我都擔心以後有設房貸的危機喔他以後還款40年都還不出來的這是另外一個問題喔委員我想齁其實清安貸款第一個拉長的貸款期限然後寬限期5年其實青年朋友們在買這個房子在寬限期裡面他如果有節於自己賺的錢比如說達到年終獎金他可以事先先去把一些本金還掉"},{"start":4609.696,"end":4613.981,"text":"以後他每個月還3萬到6萬每個月還他的財務可以做規劃他可以把自己年齡獎金先去還本金 並不是都這麼極致你可以想他未來一個月還3萬 還4萬 還5萬"},{"start":4632.18,"end":4638.262,"text":"我比較擔心的是這裡面4700多位就是公家、航空還有民間的火的不得了有多少人拿去炒房拿這個去投機啊"},{"start":4660.507,"end":4660.607,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":4693.068,"end":4718.819,"text":"這是你回我的文有關你加熱菸我一直很在意這個然後你回出來了說台北關數量2687沒有電子載具高雄關、台中關、台北關都有加熱菸還有加熱菸的載具國庫署啊你們抓私菸抓私酒不抓加熱菸勒"},{"start":4721.038,"end":4728.791,"text":"有委員在總書信就提到了因為加勒園氾濫!現在任何人都有人在抽加勒園!立法院也是有人在抽!"},{"start":4731.756,"end":4755.67,"text":"委員報告,加熱菸它要經過健康風險評估才可以販售跟製造所以它在市面上是違反這個戒害防治法那由衛福部會去做查詢一件都沒有,因為衛福部的資料是一件都沒有因為它沒有給它過沒過,一件都沒有過所以就跟電子菸一樣它是違法的違法的,對違法的啊你們為什麼不抓?"},{"start":4758.55,"end":4771.06,"text":"他違反煙害防治法那是衛福部他會去做查緝的不是你們不是要抓你們抓私煙抓私酒加熱你們抓不抓不抓他是不是煙啊我問你加熱是不是煙"},{"start":4774.494,"end":4774.634,"text":"主席"},{"start":4791.42,"end":4811.871,"text":"你不抓?委員跟委員報告他是違反煙害防治法的規定所以會有衛福部去做查緝衛福部也不抓,這不是他們管的,我問了衛福部是你們管的啊?國務署管的啊?所以各位看清楚了加勒研現在還一堆放在"},{"start":4813.146,"end":4842.447,"text":"自由貿易港區裡面準備想進來他已經放半年了這個也是經過你們同意進來的他只是處放在那一邊但是他不能進來放了半年了放了半年了他是處放在那邊為什麼放半年放那麼久呢因為你們不抓然後現在人家委員總執行就講了我們現在的淹捐啊淹稅我們已經收了100億就是因為大家都愁加熱言你們抓不到你們也沒有認真去抓"},{"start":4843.561,"end":4865.071,"text":"我就是最後一句話,你這部分你們去思考一下要不要去取締啊?要不要去抓啊?要不要?你們啊?呃,這個屬於陰害防治法的規範範圍,也跟委員報告在這個貿易港區的加熱菸它其實還是不能進到我們關內這邊來,我們海關還是會管的這地方都有抽啊,大關內在抽啊,梁文傑也抽,這個盤門岸也抽不是嗎?"},{"start":4866.012,"end":4870.761,"text":"這個怎麼會 早就叫愛媒會啊 怎麼會 講的這個樣子講的這個樣子請部長 會後跟大委員說明一下我們會後再跟委員報告"},{"start":4878.676,"end":4891.702,"text":"衛福部說這不關我的事,結果財政部不關我的事,但是呢他就在你我旁邊,這個很奇怪的事呢,好不好,這個你給我回這個文喔我們再跟衛福部來溝通,謝謝跟衛福部積極溝通,接著我們請賴市長委員諮詢,接著我們請賴會員委員諮詢"},{"start":4903.218,"end":4908.225,"text":"謝謝主席,請財政部部長還有我們的互稅署署長、財政資訊中心張主任"},{"start":4916.206,"end":4933.446,"text":"委員好部長早安我想就是針對的5月底那個我們的報稅已經都結束了那就是今年的那個所得稅的稅收是不是符合財政部的一個議期那我們知道說今年你的義孤就是說"},{"start":4934.767,"end":4945.166,"text":"在政交稅到事業底你收到了1156億那顯然好像是比之前還那個提升了那黃帝合一稅在事業底是165億"},{"start":4947.529,"end":4966.604,"text":"那中守稅在事業底是7000億那營守稅在事業底是9000億那其實在我們目前看到的這些數字他有沒有落實到扣繳的一個義務所以我想在這裡請教就是部長"},{"start":4967.987,"end":4984.891,"text":"那你今年的所得稅的稅入是不是符合你財政部議期呢?跟委員報告所得稅在中所稅的部分到5月底的為止全國的中所稅是2363億那是比去年有增加"},{"start":4985.111,"end":5004.923,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":5005.223,"end":5008.326,"text":"銀索稅的數字就是比去年減少的是負成長的,所以跟我們的"},{"start":5033.328,"end":5033.489,"text":"當時預估是很接近的"},{"start":5036.687,"end":5063.008,"text":"是,好,那顯然還是還是有一些是有落差的對,那比如說像您落差比較大的就是政交稅政交稅到5月底我們收了1156億那比去年同期是增加了507億那最主要是因為今年你也知道那個我們人口均量都接近5000億平均來說都接近5000億政交稅的一個增加表示就是說股市是熱絡的是熱絡的,是"},{"start":5064.369,"end":5091.163,"text":"所以就是說大家其實基本上普遍有賺到錢大家有多餘的錢可以投資不管是就是說我們從中國撤回來的一個資金還是我們就是整個科技產業就是賺到了很多錢那事實上就是說這個超過你的預算數那我們財政部在每年的編列預算裡頭會不會趨向於保守"},{"start":5092.143,"end":5112.717,"text":"為什麼會跟你提這個問題?因為如果是一個保守的一個預算數的一個預估的話其實是會影響到我們整體國家的就是在財務上的一個規劃那這個問題有沒有辦法就是我們去做什麼樣的一個修正呢?"},{"start":5114.764,"end":5133.274,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那對於有關財政部每次去預估所謂的預算數好像跟時增數每次到時增數的時候就有一段差距那也跟委員報告第一個因為預算數的編列到時增數的一個整個時增完成大概要差到將近一年半到兩年的時間比如說我們現在在估114年的整體的一個稅收可是"},{"start":5137.296,"end":5158.603,"text":"現在在估跟明年國際政經情勢有什麼樣的變化其實我們會盡量的去掌握或但是有的時候會有落差但是我們也不能因為這個理由不去精進所以呢我們在112年的時候就開始成立就是估113年的預算就成立專案小組你最重要就是財政部要可以預估到未來"},{"start":5161.245,"end":5172.316,"text":"除了財政部之外,我們也會邀請中央銀行、國發會等相關機關以及專家學者一起來探討每一個稅務它會影響的因子來做一個更切實的估測。接著請教護稅署署長,台灣的少子化、高齡化的趨勢已經擋不住了。"},{"start":5183.746,"end":5211.483,"text":"國發會最新的一個發布人口的一個推估從2022年到2070年的一個報告裡頭其實台灣即將正式步入超高齡的一個社會那接著要跟你探討胡老比跟申報的狀況不曾正比今年的申報戶數跟數額是不是有增加顯然看起來好像沒有增加沒有增加是什麼原因呢是不是請署長來那個回應這個問題"},{"start":5213.251,"end":5236.001,"text":"先跟委員報告112年度的所得稅申報約5月才剛辦完所以目前我們沒辦法掌握到底申報長照特別扣除的戶數是增加或減少那跟委員特別說明的是說因為我們申報長照特別扣除它必須符合幾個條件第一個當然要符合衛福部所證的身心失能資格第二個它有一個排付條款"},{"start":5236.801,"end":5237.682,"text":"我們看得出來就是說整個申報長照的這個條件太嚴苛"},{"start":5252.744,"end":5276.153,"text":"這個太嚴苛其實不是你們的一個問題這個是那個衛福部的一個問題可是當初在政策的一個溝通裡頭你們在一定是有共同討論嘛負稅組跟財政部然後跟這個衛福部共同去討論那你這個條件這麼嚴苛其實就是說為什麼我要跟你講說進入超高齡社會"},{"start":5277.173,"end":5291.765,"text":"那顯然大家就是說我家裡頭有需要這個胡老鼻的結果跟我的就是整個那個扣除的一個那個申報的一個扣除額裡頭我沒有得到照顧啊"},{"start":5292.626,"end":5313.955,"text":"所以這個是我跟你目前就是跟你那個提出來的況且通盤的情況一直在發生所以有很多人是看得到吃不到因為你的條件很嚴苛啊所以接著我再跟你探討一個就是說我們的租金租金的一個持續的一個上漲今年的租金扣除了申報的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":5316.79,"end":5339.104,"text":"因為今年剛到然後還看不出來,不好意思那其實台灣的整體的稅收都是扣到誰?扣到這些打工的人,扣到這些公務人員,扣到這些財產就是說你的那個整個報稅都是不能閃到旁邊的人,因為跑不掉嘛"},{"start":5339.924,"end":5364.778,"text":"那跑不掉的時候如果就是說黃東不給報的話那其實我們都沒有辦法看到一個正確的一個就是整體就是為什麼住金持續的一個上漲我們抓不到一個問題嘛就是因為黃東黃東認為就是說我如果報了以後那我還是扣扣在黃柯的身上是不是這樣的一個情況其實我已經要到資料啦"},{"start":5365.778,"end":5365.918,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":5382.591,"end":5407.076,"text":"就是要付那個很多的一個黃珠費用所以這個有沒有什麼好一點的方式可以就是說來做一個調整就是比較好的一個優化的一個稅制可以讓納稅人回歸到常軌這個是我要跟署長做一個討論的那我也希望就是說署長你可以就是會後提出一個比較好的"},{"start":5408.936,"end":5412.099,"text":"我這裡要請教財政中心有沒有辦法用納稅的一個大數據去找出這些弱勢家族的一個需要"},{"start":5435.46,"end":5443.927,"text":"主任,我想就是說這個2022年老人家庭的收入是77萬,這個77萬你怎麼算出來的?這個應該是依據他的年齡來做統計,那我剛才有講這個"},{"start":5456.624,"end":5473.588,"text":"什麼叫依照他的年齡老人家庭幾歲叫做老人家庭這邊應該是這個主計總署的這個調查所以他的那個來源計算可能要先問他們他們怎麼界定這個老人家庭的範圍所以你不清楚"},{"start":5473.948,"end":5499.183,"text":"是是是那你是資訊中心的主任是是所以你在盤算很多的一個資訊的時候你不知道他的一個他的所有調查的一個條件嗎你應該會去了解啊我們這邊是以稅的這個條件來做了解啦那像這個老人服務的部分好以稅的話你以稅的話那當然就是說好這個老人家庭的話一定就是"},{"start":5500.043,"end":5508.735,"text":"有領是領業退的然後還有就是繼續還在領薪水的一個是沒有薪水收入的不是不是這些項目嗎"},{"start":5512.375,"end":5530.559,"text":"所以你告訴我說這個是主席總署調查的所以我要問國花會怎麼會是這樣的一個回答呢?委員這個部分我們是不是會後第一個我們再跟主席總署了解然後再跟委員做一個報告好不好這個部分我們再了解這個數據所以部長其實針對的這個問題我是說我們沒有辦法就是"},{"start":5535.06,"end":5561.087,"text":"去做一個財稅的一個大數據我們這一個大數據就是可以完整的提供提供給我們就是跨部會的每一個部會然後讓他們在政策的一個奠定可以更精準是的我想我們財資中心有相關的一個數據那做一些加值的運用也是很重要那至於委員這邊所執行的這個事項是不是容我們再進一步的去了解以後再跟委員做報告"},{"start":5561.747,"end":5577.753,"text":"那對於剛剛委員所關心的一個租金支出的一個所得稅裡面的扣除其實從113年開始實施我們的租金支出已經轉到為特別扣除額所以不會再被所謂的標準扣除額給蓋住所以未來他會專門在特別扣除額給扣除"},{"start":5579.153,"end":5590.186,"text":"你跟我都非常清楚其實就是貧富不均然後通膨的狀況越來越嚴重那如果我們沒有一個財稅的大數據給每一個跨部會的那個單位的話其實我們訂出來的一個稅者會讓"},{"start":5597.615,"end":5598.435,"text":"謝謝大會委員委員的質詢,請接著我們請嚴寬恒委員質詢"},{"start":5630.311,"end":5633.814,"text":"主席各位練習官員主席我想請財政部專部長委員好部長好"},{"start":5643.474,"end":5661.747,"text":"部長,我們的所得稅法,剛剛我做提案說明的時候也都有提到,我們是採扣繳制度,包含營利事業負責人、機關、團體、治安人都是扣繳義務人。在所得發生的時候,依照規定的扣繳率繳交稅款。"},{"start":5665.008,"end":5687.733,"text":"當前,扣角義務人的制度存在有一定的局限性。有些應當承擔扣角義務的機關沒有被涵蓋,導致稅款的扣角不全或漏角的現象。為了使扣角義務人的義務及責任更符合四則一致原則,"},{"start":5689.793,"end":5715.081,"text":"本席認為應將行政法人、破產財團之管理人等應徵為扣繳醫務人。行政法人作為國家及地方自治團體之外由中央事業主管機關為執行特定公共事務依法設立之公法人,具有專業性以及一定的公信力。"},{"start":5716.341,"end":5743.01,"text":"業務活動往往涉及大筆的資金流動將行政法人納入扣繳義務人的範圍將有助於提高稅收的覆蓋率跟準確性將破產財團之管理人納入為扣繳義務人是因為管理人在管理資產跟債務的時候涉及的經濟活動也可能會產生稅款將其列為扣繳義務人可以確保"},{"start":5744.23,"end":5764.839,"text":"稅收的部分可以及時的繳納,避免因為破產程序的複雜性導致稅收的流失。部長你認不認同本席將行政法人及破產財團制管理人把它徵為扣款的一個扣繳義務人?"},{"start":5765.798,"end":5784.512,"text":"是,謝謝委員這個部分其實就能夠真的掌握到有關的稅源跟讓扣繳制度更為落實我們認同委員的一個看法然後也競表贊同好,謝謝部長再來就請教稅收的部分因為報稅已經結束結束了那最近的財政報告個人所得稅"},{"start":5786.397,"end":5786.557,"text":"請部長說明"},{"start":5811.137,"end":5817.823,"text":"跟委員報告直到5月底我們全國稅收的總數有1兆3263億這是全國的一個稅到5月底為止那中央的實徵數大概有8980億到目前為止大概都是達成總預算達成我們原來預算數的40%那在今年5月份的所得稅的部分呢中所稅的實徵數全國數2363億"},{"start":5836.88,"end":5844.484,"text":"比去年增加了303億,至於屬於中央部分的是1922億,比去年增加176億,但是在營所稅的部分是比去年下滑的,就是說在全國的部分是2923億,比去年少了447億,在中央屬於中央的營所稅是2630億"},{"start":5857.089,"end":5876.764,"text":"比去年減少了402億,大概目前的一個稅收狀況是這樣那目前來說整個稅收成長最多的大概還是正交稅因為日成交量的一個擴張在接近5000億再加上天數比去年同期增加了6天所以比去年我們到目前為止正交稅收了是1156億到5月底"},{"start":5879.413,"end":5888.142,"text":"比去年同期增加507億那跟委員報告就是說在今年的所得稅的申報部分我們中所稅大概是佔85%是採取網路的申報總申報件數中所稅是685萬件"},{"start":5895.989,"end":5914.364,"text":"85%採取網路申報,尤其手機報稅的建築更是成長,也就是說我們在手機報稅的部分讓民眾可以更方便,因為大家現在都有手機嘛,更便利,所以運用上成長了很多。這是跟委員報告。另外呢,如果今年的稅收會比預算數增加的話,"},{"start":5914.924,"end":5914.944,"text":"議員鄭寬恒"},{"start":5937.642,"end":5965.063,"text":"我們還了1158億也就是說這樣部分的該還的債先還也可以減少我們的債息的支出這是跟委員報告好 謝謝部長部長這個房價高居不下剛剛很多委員都有分決都針對這個新清案的部分來做出一個質詢那現在年輕人買不起房子的這種困境那很多民眾都表示即便他們有穩定的收入還有這個儲蓄但是他們還是難以支付這種"},{"start":5966.284,"end":5989.971,"text":"一般生的房價那讓年輕人無法實現這個購房的一個理想那也影響了整體經濟發展還有社會的穩定財政部推出了新清安貸款那原意是要協助年輕人購屋提供優惠貸款使他們能夠更容易的實現購房夢但是這個政策的過程當中出現一些問題這個不肖人士的一個"},{"start":5992.733,"end":5995.221,"text":"專肉棟、草房、利用人頭戶來做這種買賣。"},{"start":5997.935,"end":6024.811,"text":"反而進一步對高的房價備以政策的初衷為了要反制這些狀況所以財政部6月19日也宣布了這個新清安的安心成家就是三大精進措施那目的是要進一步的完善貸款制度確保真正需要幫助的年輕人能夠受益那有效的抑制投機行為部長可不可以跟我們說明一下這個三大具體措施是什麼"},{"start":6026.759,"end":6038.185,"text":"對於新清安貸款這樣的一個措施它的政策利益是要幫助年輕朋友們他想要買房子那可以運用這個新清安貸款來做一個購屋"},{"start":6039.384,"end":6057.671,"text":"在升息的趨勢當中政府給予相關的一個利息補貼目的就是讓沒有房子住宅使用的年輕人可以買一棟自己的房子來做居住使用但是現在外界有所謂的就是說用人頭戶或者是做轉租這些但不是我們新清安貸款需要"},{"start":6058.491,"end":6082.789,"text":"給予幫助的對象所以我們這個部分供股行庫有進行討論以後包括貸錢要核實的一個查核他是不是有沒有是不是屬於投資或是人頭戶這個身貸模式跟太陽這個部分要加強審核第二個就是要強化貸貨的管理跟積查包等等的一個方式會做那另外如果新的貸戶他必須要提寫切結書告訴他說他是符合"},{"start":6083.297,"end":6100.672,"text":"新清安貸款的各項條件而且不會做出租業不是人頭我想這個部分這個很重要也就是說如果將來他有這樣違反規定的話那所以利息補貼都不做了而且從違反規定起的利息補貼都要追回這個部分是在新清安貸款裡面而我們的供股行庫採取三項的經濟措施我們希望"},{"start":6103.996,"end":6114.829,"text":"要幫助的青年朋友們能真的獲得幫助而不是拿這個來做投機或者是做轉租等等這樣的一個行為並不是新清安貸款要補助的對象"},{"start":6117.359,"end":6137.498,"text":"除此之外,我們各地方政府也開始採取活動,調整房屋稅收的政策,就是所謂的房屋稅收自治條例修正草案,那主要是加重囤房稅率,增加房屋的持有成本,進而抑制投機行為和房價過高。"},{"start":6138.539,"end":6139.5,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6154.474,"end":6180.957,"text":"那我想這個部分鼓勵也是要將這些房子這些房屋可以釋放到市場上讓市場上有這樣子的供應量能緩解房價的壓力那到目前為止大概有全台有7個縣市通過了這些修正草案那這些地方政府都希望透過這些措施能夠逐步的改善市場的供需關係讓房價能夠趨於合理"},{"start":6181.938,"end":6208.522,"text":"我想除了這個地方政府的作為我們希望中央主管機關也是我們財政部、中央部會也是要抑制這種投機行為還有促進房屋市場的健康發展的部分應該要有更積極的作為能夠更積極然後實現一個友善的對年輕人能夠購房的一個夢想讓他們感覺到更友善、更健康的一個環境"},{"start":6209.812,"end":6229.151,"text":"謝謝委員的指教您剛剛提到就是所謂的房屋差別稅率2.0因為從今年7月1日就上路了然後各地方政府都要修正它的自治條例來適用新的房屋稅條例裡面稅率的一些規定那當然我們的友善就是在於如果你是單一只有一間在全國只有一間而且自助使用的話"},{"start":6229.411,"end":6257.022,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6257.122,"end":6260.065,"text":"好 謝謝部長謝謝委員接下來我們請李燕秀文質詢謝謝昭偉我可不可以請部長我請莊部長"},{"start":6279.83,"end":6293.374,"text":"委員好部長好我相信這一段時間無論是媒體平面大家都在討論你的新清安政策剛才寬恒委員同樣的也是就新清安的政策在做持續的討論但是房價"},{"start":6296.315,"end":6302.179,"text":"越打越高這個數字擺在那邊這是事實雖然央行前陣子通膨央行升息為了抑制通膨那也希望藉這個機會房價可以打一點房價不要讓房價越打越高但是事實呈現出來的結果大家都把房價越打越高歸咎在你的新清安政策你覺得是這樣嗎?"},{"start":6323.3,"end":6344.325,"text":"委員報告你個人感受是這樣嗎我個人不這麼全然認為第一個就是說房屋價格的一個波動的因素相當眾多比如說股市的熱絡資金的充沛還有市場利率還有地區產業的發展我同意你剛才講這幾個的一個到位我想這種因素是非常我同意啦因為前幾天我質詢那個時候我也講說其實"},{"start":6345.985,"end":6368.107,"text":"大家股市很好大家錢很口袋很多錢比較多那台灣熱錢也不少所以大家會把投資標的物放在一個未來看漲的標的物上但是相對的政府的工具政策是什麼當然你不能說全然沒有關係啊你也絕對是逃不逃不掉啦你大家同意我的說法喔"},{"start":6370.308,"end":6388.598,"text":"規舊幾大原因新青安政策確實也是我們政府本來意識房價但是你的這個政策當然我們政策的目標不是這樣但是結果呈現出來的他也是其中原因之一那我們就來看3月份的時候我們就看了政府到目前為止新青安政策已經核准了42萬戶"},{"start":6390.479,"end":6396.583,"text":"合準金額1.9兆元2月將近4000戶申請新青安3月6440戶4月6879戶5月越來越高目前我們對外好像工具手段不斷的丟出來但是申請人越來越多8476戶"},{"start":6413.514,"end":6428.371,"text":"達到了635.9億創下新高部長6月份到目前為止總共有多少新清案6月份的部分數字還是很高嗎跟委員報告您剛剛提的42萬戶或者40萬戶還有金額1兆8千億是算99年"},{"start":6431.935,"end":6450.02,"text":"因為清安貸款從99年12月就開始了所以累積到現在總共是一兆八千多億可是目前貸款餘額是八千九百九十六億換言之青年朋友們貸了清安貸款以後他其實也一直在還換言之就還了一兆多那新清安是去年八月一號開始我現在只是問你說六月份我們六月份申請的戶數跟"},{"start":6460.262,"end":6460.282,"text":"委員長"},{"start":6484.662,"end":6510.361,"text":"我為什麼要問6月份?我問6月份有我的目的就是我們現在對新青安政策我們已經在檢討也對外看起來有一些措施要做無論是你如果最後你又轉租了我要降低成數啦包括你的年薪要提早還啦我們有工具出來為什麼要說要看6月份我要看6月份我們這些新聞露出之後新青安申請的戶數有沒有減少"},{"start":6511.542,"end":6513.263,"text":"那你如果告訴我說你不知道那這幾天到底行政院在討論什麼部長你懂我的用意嗎所以你現在跟我講什麼你不知道這個數字你可以提供給我沒有問題但是我覺得"},{"start":6527.711,"end":6546.977,"text":"會後馬上統計然後提供出來部長我知道我沒有要跟你吵架因為我現在跟你答詢我是說這個趨勢就可以看出來我現在丟在媒體上這些政策工具讓不應該升起親親安的人他會不會稍微停看聽一點那如果你手邊沒有我就在想說你行政院現在在跨部會協調你是在協調什麼東西所以這個是我的疑問那接下來其實我要講的就是說"},{"start":6554.099,"end":6574.256,"text":"政府的政策就是說丟出來我們當時是要處理居住正義讓年輕人買得起房這個政策我也支持但是沒有跨部會討論的結果我覺得就是呈現這樣子就是說我們後面反而就是我們要我們你如果轉租我後面我就要罰我有相對的罰款罰則出來"},{"start":6576.578,"end":6594.821,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6595.141,"end":6621.714,"text":"過去34個月的新高過去34個月其實房租的價格也越來越高那我們現在達到更高了就不僅買房越高租金也越來越高達106.22這個是跟110年為基準來去做比較所以我要提的就是說我們希望買到合理價格的房子那對於出租來講年輕人來說我房子買不起你總要讓我"},{"start":6623.194,"end":6652.297,"text":"租金租得起吧但是現在看起來這兩塊我們政府都沒有做得很好這個是我要批評批判的地方好那租金的部分包含在居住正義裡面包含在包租代管是我長期關注的就是說我們蓋社宅土地的取得時間的連線都可能緩不濟節沒有辦法落實賴清德的政策這個政策我也支持我也希望他可以做得成功做得好"},{"start":6652.757,"end":6666.292,"text":"但是顯然租金的價格也越來越高所以我常在提的包括包租代管的政策也是部長你上次給我回答包括我後面收到書面回應我其實我是不滿意的因為我有計算過就是說"},{"start":6667.674,"end":6675.016,"text":"因為我們目前1萬5的免稅額包租貸款我們目前申請包租貸款的戶數大概10萬6千戶免稅額是1萬5我們稅損差不多是1億那我看過那個集據如果我們的免稅額調到2萬5千塊錢我們另外售戶的戶數只有4萬3千戶那你有沒有計算出來他的稅損到底差多少"},{"start":6693.28,"end":6722.72,"text":"但是我們願意加入包租代管的戶數可能大大增加很多這個也達到賴清德我們希望居住正義我現在房價越來越高但是我至少在租屋的部分有更多的公益人有更多的房東願意加入你包租代管的政策這個就是另外一個我要質詢的重點所以我要請問你到底受惠的戶數如果我調到25000塊的免稅額受惠的戶數到底有多少"},{"start":6723.9,"end":6745.387,"text":"那你稅損到底有多少因為你一直跟我講說稅損會增加很多你沒有一個數字給我你真的無法說服我所以我就會你跟我講說稅損會增加一億那我就會去問賴清德我就會去問卓榮泰我如果可以增加兩萬戶的這個這個這個房東願意投入包租貸款那你稅損一億你願不願意去承受"},{"start":6747.108,"end":6754.637,"text":"這就是另外一個問題嘛 這就是政府的選擇嘛到底是1億的稅損重要還是有1萬戶願意或者是10萬戶或5萬戶加入包租貸款政策重要 這就是一個選擇題嘛"},{"start":6762.647,"end":6772.05,"text":"謝謝委員對住宅政策的一個關注對於住宅這個提供除了社會住宅努力要興建之外還有包租貸款及供應出租的那剛剛就是說您提的就是說一萬五可不可以提高到兩萬五"},{"start":6778.352,"end":6802.856,"text":"你稅損到底會增加多少?有多少部署?部長,我這個問題問了兩三次我覺得你根本就沒有好好去精算、計算這個事情不是壞事,你也知道不是我要個人要什麼虧的而是我在幫助賴清德達到居住正義、包住代管跟量可以增加,全國都可以增加你現在居然沒有辦法告訴我"},{"start":6803.456,"end":6803.837,"text":"我們是要考慮到這個委員"},{"start":6814.765,"end":6840.27,"text":"委員報告,這個公益出租也好,包租代管也好,不是只有考慮所得稅把1.5條高、免稅條高到2.5萬,這個就是房東願不願意加入,這就是鼓勵誘因,這就是誘因啦!能不能容我說明,也就是說除了所得稅之外,它的房屋稅跟地價稅都適用自用住宅,而不是用一般的所謂出租的住宅的一個數的稅率,所以不是只有所得稅,再其次,你讓房東要"},{"start":6841.63,"end":6858.524,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":6859.093,"end":6869.546,"text":"那你現在是說包租貸款的政策一萬五也不合理囉沒有,這一萬五當時我們其實有考慮過六都的租金制做一個四度的減免加入包租貸款的免稅額也是你們提出來的"},{"start":6872.591,"end":6899.111,"text":"我提出來只是說全國的房租因為地價的關係不太一樣我希望全國都有更多的誘因加入你包租代管的政策至於決策上怎麼做我覺得跨部會要去協調但是我非常遺憾是這是一個幫助賴清德可以落實我們的社會住宅的政策也讓工具可以更多但是我在這邊苦口婆心講了這麼久"},{"start":6900.912,"end":6919.343,"text":"顯然的你沒有辦法回答我的問題就是我每次在這邊質詢就是狗肺火車然後你連想都不想你連稅損到底要增加多少稅損你連精算都沒有去精算所以我覺得底下的人大家都不認真啦你也都在敷衍我對這個事情非常不滿意我絕對不是情緒性的發言而且我覺得這是一個好的政策"},{"start":6926.167,"end":6950.916,"text":"可以達到社會住宅多多提供出來政府蓋社宅其實真的很慢我希望他可以蓋得很快但沒有辦法年輕人買不起房至少也可以租得起房這是一個誘因讓房東把房子丟出來不管你回答我什麼這都是你的工具政策就是你們決定要怎麼做我只看效果結果出來到底是什麼房東因為你的政策丟出更多的房子出來加入包租代管"},{"start":6955.477,"end":6956.477,"text":"主席,一樣有請莊部長"},{"start":6984.172,"end":6985.553,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想今天大家都問了很多報稅季節裡頭大概多了多少錢我大概自己已經整理了今年5月底的時增在一兆3263將近於去年總數都增加了861億"},{"start":7007.014,"end":7029.701,"text":"那裡頭本席比較關心的部分是這個眾所稅裡頭的房地合一稅前5個月總共是227億比去年同期增加了88.9%大概將近9成房地合一稅那尤其是桃園、台中、新竹這三大熱區都成長超過100%那能不能先請教一下部長這個財政部能不能把這樣"},{"start":7033.362,"end":7054.805,"text":"整個各縣市全國交易的這個細部資料就申報了案件當中到底一年內的換手有幾件?比例有多少?二年有多少?三年有多少?以此類推。這樣常常換算出來,類似這樣子五年內的這個交易的這個方式是屬於正常化呢?還是屬於這個投資客的交易?算得出來嗎?"},{"start":7056.652,"end":7058.854,"text":"為什麼第一次的時候沒有跟第二次引起這麼多的爭議?為什麼?"},{"start":7082.112,"end":7096.148,"text":"你們是不是要查一下第一次的清安貸的時候第一代的清安貸的時候它是不是自住的比例比較高那個政策有沒有成功那第二次跟第一次的清安貸你們在整個辦法跟條件上有什麼樣的變化嗎"},{"start":7097.928,"end":7110.759,"text":"有的,當然第一個就是說在第二次所謂新清案的部分我們就把最高的貸款額度,原來是800萬調高到1000萬那事實上是因為房價有往上,所以讓他一個,那第二個就是把貸款年限從30年延長到40年讓年輕朋友們可以延長這個期限"},{"start":7115.843,"end":7137.008,"text":"還有一個就是寬限期從3年延長為5年就是因為我們有3種方式的擴大所以以至於這個誘因投入房地產誘因增加特別我認為不要去怪罪年輕人趕快投入這個方式是不是我們這一個張制定的時候過鬆的現象我是不是1000萬可能不是什麼太大的問題第二個我覺得最關鍵的問題是寬限期"},{"start":7145.23,"end":7163.737,"text":"關鍵期把3年調成5年的時候,大家呢,這一個還本的時間呢,延長到後面,你看到還本,前第一年呢,是延長到40年都一樣啦,前面36個月呢,都1萬5到,到呢,第4年第5年呢,1萬9不到。"},{"start":7165.359,"end":7185.766,"text":"那到這樣的情況底下你就變成什麼樣的現象呢?所有的這個狀況只要再加上這個貸款的部分銀行貸款可以協助8成甚至還有什麼?甚至就還有建商建商提出的公司貸、優惠貸再把那兩成處理掉你知道這種情形嗎?部長"},{"start":7187.465,"end":7209.714,"text":"所以真正會造成第二波輕案帶引起這麼大爭議的或許不是行為人本身而已而是我們制度周遭的助長周遭的助長有幾個原因第一個就是我們剛剛講的我們把3年調到5年把30年調到40年接下來還有什麼網路社團叫糾團買你有知道這種現象嗎"},{"start":7213.581,"end":7232.679,"text":"您也知道嘛所以說呢如果從網紅的社團去查從這一個建商用公私貸用優富貸輕鬆付的這種誘因來帶動整個年輕人不斷的去買入這投資的比例比較高還是自助的比例比較高您想一想"},{"start":7236.051,"end":7258.147,"text":"新青恩他剛剛我們講了就放寬了幾個條件利益是好的也就讓年輕人尤其你剛出社會也就是說能薪資可能不是那麼高利益是好的但是結果恐怕會造成很大的爭議總體的防護政策是抵觸的我就問說第一點這三點的部分部長有沒有可能緊縮的可能有沒有考慮還是維持這種開放性"},{"start":7260.368,"end":7268.554,"text":"跟委員報告,我們行政院已經要各部會去盤點相關的一些資料,然後也會做一些政策決定。沒有,部長,我再問你一次,主政部會當中這三個當中有沒有緊縮的可能?這是第一個。第二個,對建商的輕鬆富、公司貸有沒有約束的可能?第三個,對網路這個糾團買有沒有什麼樣塌綠的空間?這三點啊,我認為這三點是最有可能的。"},{"start":7285.725,"end":7303.315,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們新青安就是說剛剛提的這三項要不要做緊縮我覺得這三項對年輕人是非常重要的因為減輕他這個部分利益是良善但是不要因為有一些不好的情況比如說投機的或者是那個藉由而去做緊縮那至於剛剛後面委員就說對您提到這兩項對這個部分其實公私貸等等這個部分的話術等等那個內政部"},{"start":7314.462,"end":7319.723,"text":"公司代還有包括網路啊、集體糾團啊對,所以說現在政府要從這兩部分來進行著手嘛這邊的投資可能性就比較大嘛現在重點又放在哪裡?放在所謂的這個轉租我跟你講啦,這個轉租租屋那個意義不大啦因為你從買到那個"},{"start":7344.269,"end":7344.689,"text":"部長 你知道嗎?嘿"},{"start":7373.268,"end":7373.909,"text":"五年後我再拋售也是一種期貨啊"},{"start":7388.491,"end":7402.781,"text":"對阿 所以這同樣是投資的行為嘛 有人說誰創造了出來這個期貨的心理 誰創造出來這個期貨的商品 這個商品變成期貨的時候你如果把它這個本質把它打掉我覺得這是關鍵阿"},{"start":7405.404,"end":7416.015,"text":"副長,請你去思考一下好不好?思考一下這個很關鍵的本質是我們創造出來期貨的本質嘛第二個部分呢,你去看看我們去年銀行業大賺多少?5057億啊"},{"start":7421.08,"end":7435.143,"text":"中間的華南銀行、第一銀行、兆豐都大賺200億以上你到底有沒有去看過說呢總體的這些銀行、國公營的銀行的這個獲利有多少來自於這個土建榮的放款你有沒有算過?你有沒有算過?我跟你講這一波房地產啦我們的國公銀行啊是受益者欸不是嗎?"},{"start":7451.465,"end":7470.323,"text":"不是嗎?當然啊!你們最喜歡放款這些土建籠嘛!然後另外一個部分以致於這個資本的集中力會越來越高嘛!我就問你一點嘛!我們的青安貸的這個貸款的這個金額有沒有列入銀行法72條之3的30%的計算還是屬於地外範圍?"},{"start":7474.046,"end":7497.803,"text":"這個部分有但土地銀行是因為是屬於專業銀行所以他沒有受銀行法院的規定那其他的銀行仍然有天花板所以以至於這個販款的成數會越來越增加對不對是不是我們這個部分的例外條款太多你們要思考一下否則的話這30%的條款形同虛設我講白一點真的是形同虛設對不對"},{"start":7502.93,"end":7530.537,"text":"可是跟委員說齁我們已看這個親安貸款總額現在是4千多億他大概是住宅那我們也看到他們買的房子大概是都是在一千一千五億一千三百萬以下其實大概是一千五百萬以下占百分之七十八你這個應該講出來我這個東西不是在強烈懷疑親安貸親安貸我們在第一代的時候是成功的"},{"start":7531.357,"end":7548.446,"text":"第二代造成這一種呢就是老實講就是有幾顆老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥嘛那你要把大部分的正常的交易行為你不要把它凸顯出來為什麼本席剛剛在問你就第一代的時候自住的比例多少你要強化這個政策的正當性"},{"start":7549.246,"end":7569.124,"text":"第二個部分呢你現在的購買行為當中屬於自住的可能性大概比例多少你應該推估出來最後呢是投機行為的時候你要把它處理是投機行為的部分嘛對不對對你應該把它這個也就是說我們這個政策到目前為止至少75%以上就如同你剛剛講的數字75%以上是正確的只是25%是投資行為破壞掉了你應該講清楚"},{"start":7576.61,"end":7581.073,"text":"否則政府的政策本來是良法美意被搞得烏煙瘴氣不是嗎?是的,所以根據委員報告我們這邊的資料1500萬他們買的總價不是貸款1500萬以下占了78%而且你可以分區域1500"},{"start":7593.743,"end":7593.843,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝委員"},{"start":7611.674,"end":7630.84,"text":"該去處理建商還是要處理建商啊?該去跟網路的這些行為裡頭該怎麼約束還是約束啊?最後我要問一下關務署這兩天你有回應本席兩個問題第一個是從稅金25000條件到35000本席跟你肯定的第二個部分有關於這個"},{"start":7632.14,"end":7647.345,"text":"網路詐騙、退稅的問題您也有做出一個不用公正費用的部分本席也跟你肯定但是目前這個退稅還停留在資本的部分本席哪你苟同"},{"start":7648.385,"end":7665.914,"text":"因為呢我們繳稅都AI化繳稅都便捷化退稅是紙本化還有那個部長我也跟您提醒一下類似這種繳稅啊我們都有期限啊超過期限我們就要罰那我問一下我那個民眾要求你退稅呢你有沒有給自己期限"},{"start":7668.806,"end":7695.328,"text":"對阿沒有這整個退稅的部分不只是你還有包括稅務署退稅的時候你有沒有給期限我舉一個例子部長您注意聽齁就是剛剛同樣的房地合一稅換屋重購退稅你們有沒有時間點有沒有時間點阿對啊多久要退稅完成你們有沒有時間點阿也就是說呢你可能拖個一年三年遇到五六月報稅忘記的時候可能就拖了半年阿對啊"},{"start":7697.609,"end":7698.25,"text":"民眾申請退稅,政府應該要多少時間以內退稅?"},{"start":7715.566,"end":7716.206,"text":"接著我們請羅民財、羅昭偉質詢"},{"start":7744.211,"end":7765.898,"text":"主席 各位委員初列席 歡迎 大家好主席 可否請 先國庫署好了 署長 陳柏成陳署長 呃 陳署長好 謝謝陳署長 委員長 問眾矚目 大家都在期待新任的"},{"start":7767.37,"end":7794.407,"text":"陳署長可以為財化法來多多規劃來運籌維握因為你第一線工作的你應該要做好最好的準備讓財政部長他可以了解情況因為如同你我都知我們的部長他過去的經驗是在國產的部分比較賢俗稅的部分"},{"start":7796.181,"end":7814.061,"text":"財政的部分你就應該要好好來闢話一下請問現在20個版本裡面你比較熟悉哪一個版本那已經開始從運籌帷幄有開始在規劃國庫署心理的版本了嗎?"},{"start":7815.742,"end":7840.236,"text":"各位委員報告現在的20個版本都有各自他們想要達成的目標比如說有的希望垂直分配的金額要放大那有的是則希望說在水平分配的時候可以用人口的比例來處理但是不管哪一個方案其實都會存在一些問題那尤其是水平分配的部分"},{"start":7841.196,"end":7867.716,"text":"一定是要經過各個利害關係人就是各個地方政府他們要有一個共識共識,你開始跟22縣市有接觸了嗎?感謝昭偉這邊上次在立法院已經辦過了一次公聽會需不需要再來一次昭偉上次在做那個條文討論的時候昭偉也有再提示說您還會再辦"},{"start":7868.857,"end":7883.001,"text":"好,沒問題,可是到現在沒有人說希望我辦我問了好多委員,如果召委可以,郭召委也可以辦啊就是我們集思廣益嘛,大家多多來提不過你剛剛講的22縣市看似複雜,其實是很簡單的啦這22個裡面,就垂直分配來說,有問題的是哪幾個"},{"start":7893.896,"end":7916.855,"text":"如果以地方政府來說的話因為他們都只考量到地方自己的施政目標而已所以當然會希望中央的財源下放的金額越大越好但是我想整個政府的整體資源的分配絕對不是只用地方角度的觀點中央政府在一些經濟發展的政策或者是"},{"start":7917.515,"end":7920.096,"text":"對,錯綜複雜啦,最後一定會有個答案出來,就好像25年前通過的財化法一樣"},{"start":7935.098,"end":7949.197,"text":"這過就過了吧大家也許不滿意但是還是可以普遍可以接受就垂直分配的部分有沒有哪一個縣市覺得應該要做什麼修改讓它優於去年跟前年的"},{"start":7951.371,"end":7971.123,"text":"我想大家那個目前財政部目前中央這邊依據財政收支化分法的那個比率播出去的金額其實對各地政府來說目前是夠用的所以顯示在他們的財政剩餘或者是舉債的比例的降低"},{"start":7972.043,"end":7993.505,"text":"不過財政剩餘的提高或舉債比例的降低都是往好的趨勢在發展你上一次跟22縣市的首長見面是什麼時候?或是相關人員?就是上一次委員您召委召開的公民會我還不知道立法院那麼好用"},{"start":7995.237,"end":8014.438,"text":"我們自己在地方財政聯繫會報也都有跟他們討論你要趁這個暑假的期間多多召開召開一些會議或者三天兩夜也無所謂你再把召開的時間、地點跟我們講一下我再過去送"},{"start":8015.629,"end":8027.998,"text":"珍珠奶茶送雞排過去給你們加油打氣跟鼓勵然後順便聽聽看22縣市究竟垂直分配的部分有哪一個縣市是有問題的"},{"start":8030.356,"end":8057.676,"text":"其實你就現在的這個這個大概的邏輯裡面你每個只要增加百分之三十啊三十啊跟過去比起來根本就沒有人有意見啊如果你增加百分之三十跟去年比有意見的你把名單交給我我再一一來槌尋問他們問題是出在哪裡當然錢不可以亂花啊你造成很多的蚊子管造成很多的浪費"},{"start":8058.88,"end":8081.317,"text":"這不是全民所樂見的但是你要抓到一個大概百分之七七八八大概八成九成大家的接受程度慢慢再收斂一定就會有答案出來你能不能為這個25年沒有修法的財政收支劃分法你願意來盡一點力量"},{"start":8083.197,"end":8107.904,"text":"跟委員報告我們國庫署目前在做的事情就是朝這個方向在我希望說你的專業你們的辛苦跟研究就是趕快推出因為這個不是什麼政治性的對立的議題而是全民嗷嗷逮捕的一個重要法案過了以後"},{"start":8108.664,"end":8129.937,"text":"可以改大很多的城鄉差距有很多的地方真的是很需要的那我你當然說呢什麼其實在這裡可能你一時答不出來沒有關係你就22縣市抽絲剝繭那我想你如果三天兩夜的聯席會你願意一個一個慢慢談"},{"start":8131.498,"end":8158.352,"text":"我們相信一定就會有答案出來與其不做倒不如左手開始動起來做9月22日開議之前你如果版本沒出來那黃沪珊珊委員怎麼辦還好其他委員都在等你如果真的都不動的話那最後被迫無奈沒辦法"},{"start":8159.315,"end":8186.796,"text":"那就國民黨的版本要通過我不曉得是最好當然是比去年的好但是有沒有更好的我們也期盼有更好的大家一起來討論我們這個海納百川我們心胸是開闊的只要是好的是對的大家一起共同來支持好不好是 謝謝委員我們會自己努力辦希望你歷史留名叫做陳柏臣"},{"start":8188.802,"end":8211.251,"text":"講究誠信,萬事一定成。好不好?謝謝蘇昂。謝謝。那請那個部長,莊部長。要請莊部長。莊部長好。委員好。親安陳家。親安親安。希望陳家一路都平安。"},{"start":8212.418,"end":8225.443,"text":"我覺得你們這個內容剛開始在做的確獲得很多年輕人的熱烈的迴響那請問這一波說房地產又飆漲"},{"start":8230.862,"end":8244.916,"text":"這個問題到底在是什麼地方出了問題我相信不是財政部你覺得勒?跟委員報告房屋價格的波動影響的因素有很多比如說市場的利率還有股市熱絡資金充沛"},{"start":8245.516,"end":8272.479,"text":"還有地區產業的發展還有經濟的基本面好的話還有重大公共建設陸續到位尤其是交通建設那會還有另外對於房市的預期心理甚至有對於通膨他認為要保值所以買房子所以影響房屋價格的因素蠻多的那新清安貸款事實上是協助年輕人他沒有自由的住家房屋的話讓他可以去買一間房子那政府給你協助"},{"start":8272.878,"end":8274.259,"text":"所以現在外界在講說房屋飆漲其實不是財政部的錯這句話對不對"},{"start":8298.236,"end":8317.423,"text":"我講房屋漲價因素很多如剛剛所說那但是對於有一些不當的一些話術或是投機行為等等比如說像網路揪團去買這個事實上是要抑制的我想這個政府各部門也都注意到了那財政部也會去做相關的一些處理所以這樣一路走來有沒有人錯?"},{"start":8319.875,"end":8334.784,"text":"我覺得應該是說你運用新清安貸款去做不是做自助用去做投機甚至轉租而不是我們要做協助的對象那這樣的話是不應該的有人犯錯可是最主要機關單位都沒有錯"},{"start":8336.767,"end":8354.278,"text":"當然這個部分我們對於知道有這樣的情形就應該增強化我們的貸錢的增盛以及貸後的追蹤管制就是要做到以免好的政策被別人拿去做不當的使用所以出發點是對的出發點是良善的所以其實我也是覺得我也認同"},{"start":8359.124,"end":8386.71,"text":"至於房價會長因素實在太多太多了比如說有位黃仁勳先生你認不認識在電視上常常看到他是他如果回來台灣那當然是帶動台灣的成長啊比如本席也公開請經濟部來邀約拜託這個輝達的公司總部可以設立在新店"},{"start":8388.22,"end":8410.134,"text":"因為新電有寶高暖體智慧園區有第二期第三期現在還在推第一期的部分Tesla、鴻海、Google等等相關都已經進駐了所以新電又不跳電又不缺電所以來新電是多好的一件事所以要在這裡也拜託部長你也思考一下"},{"start":8410.774,"end":8430.074,"text":"多多鼓勵AI這些未來靈隱世界風騷的這些也是台灣人讓他們願意回來台灣、居住在台灣、耕留台灣但是我這邊要講因為時間關係主心震起來就是請部長思考一下怎麼樣讓"},{"start":8431.996,"end":8449.824,"text":"這些好的人才願意住在臺灣稅賦的問題很重要還有居留的問題希望你們也研究一下改天我們再來討論好 謝謝謝謝委員請表 謝謝謝謝榮平財委員的質詢待會我們在武力華委員質詢之後休息10分鐘緊接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":8460.894,"end":8462.115,"text":"謝謝主席,我請莊部長我請莊部長"},{"start":8480.565,"end":8508.951,"text":"緊鑼密鼓我希望財政部盡快的跟各縣市政府再把相關的東西整理一下也有如果有什麼意見的話我覺得都可以討論好嗎我們會跟各地方政府來在座討論謝謝委員好今天我要問的是就是央行的總裁楊金龍其實他曾經在立法院說他自己也是40歲才首購年輕人如果買不起房大部分可以選擇先租房所以租屋市場"},{"start":8510.431,"end":8533.061,"text":"應該是目前為止大概算起來有98萬戶如果一家有2到3個人的話大概將近再加20多萬的學生我們有300萬戶的租屋族所以租屋族在台灣是人口的15%左右也就是說目前為止購屋如果沒有辦法那麼快購屋所以租屋應該是一個選擇對吧"},{"start":8535.462,"end":8546.24,"text":"而且台灣還有300萬人正在租屋所以目前為止我們應該是認為租屋的經濟能力會比買房的經濟能力稍微弱勢吧"},{"start":8547.81,"end":8550.671,"text":"所得稅法特別我們針對各項免稅還有各項的扣除額我們特別去算了一下其實在房貸有房貸自用住宅的扣除額在租金有租金的扣除額"},{"start":8574.223,"end":8589.441,"text":"從單單所得稅法這條17條我們目前為甚麼算起來非常的有趣我們相對經濟弱勢的租屋族我們給他的優惠反而比有自用貸款的購屋族給他的扣除而來的少"},{"start":8590.509,"end":8609.675,"text":"我簡單的說如果目前的利率大概是2%30年期的房貸貸款的金額要超過1500萬每年利息才會到達我們所得稅法30萬的扣除的上限也就是說考量我們的房貸大概是八成所以買一個1800多萬的房子"},{"start":8612.216,"end":8626.892,"text":"他繳的自用租財利息才會達到我們所得稅法給他的稅負減免的範圍也就是他要買一個很高至少1800萬的房子但是呢我們的房租扣除了現在是18萬"},{"start":8628.334,"end":8645.381,"text":"那如果按照這個房租的扣除了他的投資報酬率我們用最少的2%來算他租了一個房子大概900萬他就會達到他的政府稅負減免的範圍也就是說我們的所得稅法對於購屋族比較優惠"},{"start":8646.561,"end":8669.445,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":8669.96,"end":8687.778,"text":"一千四百塊一坪一個小家庭租20坪一對夫妻大概他一年的房租就要30萬所以我們只給他扣18萬所以部長你覺得我們所得稅法是對購屋族比較優惠對租屋族比較苛刻嗎?"},{"start":8690.077,"end":8694.324,"text":"委員報告啊,這個30萬是在列舉扣除額裡面,那第一個當時那個委員也算出來的當時30萬,但是在訂30萬的時候當時的利率是比較高的,所以訂了一個30萬,那這個是我們訂得太高了是嗎?"},{"start":8708.143,"end":8729.879,"text":"然後至於我們的18萬是放在特別扣除額裏面還有跟委員報告這18萬的支出呢還要如果是它是超額應該怎麼講租金補貼它如果有租金補貼的話超過租金補貼的部分是可以做扣除也就是租金補貼那個不會再影響它"},{"start":8730.64,"end":8732.401,"text":"所以部長我的意思是說特的確是我們所得稅法裡面對於租族跟"},{"start":8738.679,"end":8762.355,"text":"公務組不同的對待這個是有認為有必要真的有必要對於18萬的扣除額我們有必要再做檢討而且這麼多年在房貸利息已經調漲過4次但是房租扣除額2000年之後24年只在去年調升過一次所以這個是有必要檢討的"},{"start":8763.836,"end":8778.988,"text":"這個是二十多年來我們只條生過那麼一次所以我認為啦租稅的中立性還是應該公平對待所以不管怎麼樣我希望這個部分要做一個檢討我們也會提案也希望財政部有一些相關的這個18萬的部分是"},{"start":8779.648,"end":8781.63,"text":"新青年貸款目前為止父母親有房子,他能不能夠貸?"},{"start":8801.732,"end":8803.333,"text":"那請問一下所得稅法裡面房租的扣除額跟他有撫養父母的撫養扣除額他們能不能夠同時申請?"},{"start":8827.51,"end":8852.835,"text":"我房租不能夠扣除跟我父母有沒有房子有沒有關係?那是同一個申報戶裏面如果他被我撫養他爸媽有房子我就不能扣我的房租了對吧?因為他是同一個申報戶而且是他要撫養清楚剛剛講了新青安我們認為他是成年人所以他父母有房子跟他沒有關係"},{"start":8854.275,"end":8860.464,"text":"今天所得稅我能不能扣房子扣房租扣除了跟我爸媽有沒有房子為什麼有關係"},{"start":8862.11,"end":8888.282,"text":"我再講一遍很多人是中南部的爸媽有老家的房子他到北部來租房子但是他爸媽可能年紀大了所以他沒有辦法之後他會繼續撫養父母撫養義務是每一個人的存在不會因為他家住哪裡他就沒有撫養義務當他的爸媽有房子的時候他在台北租房子的扣除額就不能計算你覺得這樣公平嗎"},{"start":8891.499,"end":8916.271,"text":"當時我們確實把他放在同一個報戶裡面這兩個事情對我來說他就是矛盾的如果親親案貸款我們認為他是成年人他爸媽的房子跟他無關他應該自己負責所以他可以取得親親案貸款但是當他在爸媽在南部有房子他在台北的租屋的金額在他的薪水裡面即使他撫養了他的父母他就沒有辦法"},{"start":8919.777,"end":8926.212,"text":"我希望財政部應該要去檢討一下這兩個的論理理由沒有辦法說服我"},{"start":8927.336,"end":8949.212,"text":"如果你剛剛講的那個是一個理由那就請把他當成成年人他的撫養義務是民法給他的不是因為他不能扣除所得相關的租金支出是因為他有撫養義務因為他爸媽幫他扣除了另外一筆錢這是不對的撫養義務是全中華民國人民都有的誰都有"},{"start":8949.952,"end":8969.778,"text":"不是只有他但是因為這樣他不能把房租的支出扣除這是不公平的部長你們有想過這件事嗎在訂這個條文的時候是有考慮過那為什麼還放在裡面所以我要講的是如果我們把它當成年人就把它當成年人"},{"start":8970.629,"end":8981.936,"text":"如果把我們罷他當撫養義務他就是撫養義務他有沒有租屋的事實他有那能不能扣除我認為應該要去做檢討這是第二個部分部長這個是今天我們不出來租稅中立性是的"},{"start":8986.398,"end":9008.808,"text":"租稅中立性公平就好所以這個我們希望如果我們把租屋族當成政府希望剛剛講將近有300萬的租屋需求的人我們希望他又是我們承認他是經濟相對弱勢的人我們怎麼樣讓他在租稅上面得到一個一定公平的對待這個很重要"},{"start":9009.915,"end":9032.512,"text":"尤其是剛剛講我們不是要鼓勵人民孝順父母嗎?我們不是要鼓勵大家因為中南部的房子他可能有個老家但他在台北的租屋的費用竟然不能扣除這兩個本身就是矛盾衝突的所以部長我希望你研議我也希望在下一個會期前如果你們沒有相關的版本我們可能也會來提出修法的要求"},{"start":9033.792,"end":9034.413,"text":"我認為這兩個原理應該相同"},{"start":9063.581,"end":9078.711,"text":"是不是相同當然我們要看他的用意在哪裡還是回到稅務工作平息委員剛剛提的那個我知道委員的意思這部分容我們再來做思考跟研議好的謝謝部長我等你的回答我們希望開議前也給我一個滿意的答覆謝謝委員謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢請接著我們請吳立華委員質詢"},{"start":9095.911,"end":9097.416,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長有請莊部長"},{"start":9104.361,"end":9127.532,"text":"委員好部長好當我們在談居住正義的時候往往都是很關注在房價打房但實際上我們來看一下根據內政部不動產資訊平台他所提供的資料估算全國的租屋戶大概是93萬戶"},{"start":9129.633,"end":9129.653,"text":"﹚委員"},{"start":9159.633,"end":9159.853,"text":"主席"},{"start":9178.086,"end":9206.981,"text":"大概可以到18%到35%特別是在臺北市那幾乎呢他的所得都拿去負擔他的租金那我們也曾經看到資料就是問年輕人那如果問說你認為買房比租屋好的好處是什麼我們可以看到這個排名第一的一個原因叫做長期居住"},{"start":9207.981,"end":9227.297,"text":"也就是說他不用怕被房東趕那反過來說我們這些租屋族其實他心中最大的隱憂也就是不能夠久居那如果說問到這些房客就是你租屋的時候你最在乎的面向是什麼"},{"start":9227.998,"end":9228.618,"text":"在3月份邀請財政部來研議"},{"start":9247.404,"end":9266.254,"text":"免追溯租金所得稅這個租稅特色的可行性那我們也看到財政部你們的回覆你們是特別提到說現在已經有提供很多的租稅誘因例如像是社宅租金補貼免納眾所稅"},{"start":9269.156,"end":9285.136,"text":"那又例如像包租代管免納眾所稅那或者是說關於誠實申報的房東呢他可以出租的時候他可以降他的房屋稅率又或者說"},{"start":9286.617,"end":9307.974,"text":"這些我們現在即將明年再上路的就是由列舉扣除額改列到特別扣除額讓這一些房客他可以減他的所得稅又不影響房東那當然這個部分我們是希望說因為明年要上路希望財政部要加強宣導"},{"start":9309.575,"end":9329.253,"text":"另外一方面你們也提到加強查緝囤房大戶我看到資料提到2021年的8月一整年跟2022年1月起一整年針對這一些10戶以上跟5戶以上的大戶說兩撥共查"},{"start":9332.737,"end":9348.796,"text":"獲到6053件合計補稅可以補到3.2億元那先請教一下部長就是關於這個所謂的持有者10戶或5戶以上的這些他們是有跨縣市嗎"},{"start":9351.376,"end":9377.976,"text":"有跨縣市所以有茶企他們是跨縣市那這個部分我是想要請教因為立法院的預算中心曾經提過就是你們這個所謂的加強茶企大戶他就是不含法人像很多的物業公司他其實非不動產這些他們其實才是真正的持有大戶"},{"start":9378.817,"end":9404.697,"text":"那請教一下部長,就是這方面你們的態度是怎麼樣?委員這個實務執行我是不是可以請署長回答?好,謝謝,署長。報告委員,當時我們對於租賃所的查證主要是針對個人建築,因為它沒有扣繳資料,也沒有開發票的資料,完全仰賴個人房東自己誠實申報,所以我們才會鎖定個人房東的部分,如果他是租給個人,"},{"start":9406.098,"end":9435.647,"text":"因為都沒有相關資料可以掌握嘛 那我們特別專案查核至於研究預算中心研究裡面它講不函法人中的非不動產及營界工程業者持有多戶因為這些都叫盈利事業盈利事業基本上出租是要開利發票的然後因為它有資產負債標 如果它資產裡面有這麼多棟的房屋基本上如果有所謂的不對稱的那種收入劣報也會變成規矩查核的對象"},{"start":9436.127,"end":9452.788,"text":"所以它就沒有列在這個專案計畫裡面我們很關心因為我們認為我們一直在講打房或者是房價的意志這個部分其實他們往往才是根源因為他們持有的房屋"},{"start":9453.989,"end":9478.541,"text":"現在做這個行業的非常多我想這個部分還是要請財政部要注意那另外就是有提到你們加強查緝囤房大戶今年各地區國稅局強化個人應該就是5戶以下那這個查核專案作業目前應該也推動半年了想要知道一下成效怎麼樣"},{"start":9479.521,"end":9497.005,"text":"報告委員,因為我們這計畫它是按記回報的,所以目前我們還在那個就整個從,而且它是不是年初就開始,它是在後面才開始,所以目前還沒有查的成效,但按記回報之後一定會跟委員如果有關心這個問題,我們再回報給你。好,謝謝。"},{"start":9500.926,"end":9529.867,"text":"總之你們的回覆講了這麼多就是棒子也有蘿蔔也有所以呢認為租稅特色是違反租稅的公平啊那我是要特別去提到說當我們用盡了所有的棒子跟蘿蔔我們會看到問題還是存在表示我們還有問題沒有解決還是有原因那我在這裡就是特別提到我舉個例子"},{"start":9530.427,"end":9551.736,"text":"像土地稅法的第34條有一個所謂的一生一次一生一屋的土增稅那它的自用稅的匯率是10%比一般買賣的20到40%優惠很多那為什麼我特別提因為我們如果我賣了一個房子我可以賺500萬"},{"start":9553.297,"end":9577.976,"text":"可是如果說我非自用我可能就是要繳課一百萬以上那如果我是自用我只要課大概五十萬左右這個差很多所以其實這也是一個隱憂啊因為將心比心很多的屋主他擔心他未來他準備要賣房子他可能會因為這樣子而不報出租"},{"start":9578.936,"end":9604.622,"text":"所以我想這個部分就是要特別提醒就是我們可能財政部可不可以去參考比照像房東地價稅優惠的一個做法那讓這些誠實的報稅者他也能夠適用這個自用的稅率那為什麼我這樣說因為我們都很清楚看到在COVID-19疫情期間很多人以前都是不報勞保啊"},{"start":9605.862,"end":9622.311,"text":"可是因為我們寄出了一個勞工紓困補貼所以呢 調出了很多的人他就趕快去投勞保提高投保勞工的投保意願所以像這樣子的一個狀況其實都可以提供財政部來參考"},{"start":9624.132,"end":9649.845,"text":"其實我在這邊就是特別要講還是要回到居住正義我們要關心的希望財政部放更多的關心更多的感情在這一些租屋族我們很期待我們台灣未來不要執著在我們的一個民族的價值觀好像一定要有土有房其實一生一輩子很短"},{"start":9651.226,"end":9669.644,"text":"我們不見得每一個人一定要買房子但是重點我可以在我這一生我能夠用很低的租金然後住到很好的房子因為我很希望你們給一些付稅的誘因像那一些鼓勵房東要修繕這些老舊的房屋啊"},{"start":9670.365,"end":9690.945,"text":"我們很希望我們的住屋者住得安全住得舒適很宜居住得很健康我想這個部分都希望財政部能夠來幫個忙讓我們每一個人一生都能夠住得起住得好我想這個才是真正的居住正義那部長您的看法如何"},{"start":9691.767,"end":9700.079,"text":"任同委員,居住是一個人的一個基本生活的一個需求然後每個人有適宜的一個居住環境是很重要的"},{"start":9700.595,"end":9721.694,"text":"這也就是要達到居住正義的一個目的那委員剛剛所提的這3項我想這個部分我們是不是以書面來做回覆好嗎那一定要有對策啊你們要再多想一想因為問題始終沒有解決那我希望能夠朝向更好的方式我們來解決居住正義的問題"},{"start":9723.106,"end":9732.28,"text":"那是不是第二項不要限定我們在一個月內署名我們等有成效出來以後我們就一起回報給委員這樣好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席謝謝吳立法委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":9758.207,"end":9764.051,"text":"委員會委員會長"},{"start":9784.68,"end":9787.801,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":10427.803,"end":10431.044,"text":"我們繼續開會齁接著我們請李昆城委員質詢謝謝主席我們請莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":10447.185,"end":10458.162,"text":"委員好部長好今天早上很多委員都在關心有關新清安的問題那本席先請教一下部長那新清安跟舊清安跟過去的這個青年貸款有什麼不一樣"},{"start":10459.616,"end":10477.314,"text":"新青安貸款其實從民國99年12月就開始開辦了那在去年的8月1號開始所謂的新青安那最主要就是我們把貸款額度從800萬提高到1000萬因為從99年到現在事實上房價是有調整高的所以把那個貸款額度提高"},{"start":10477.534,"end":10505.759,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10505.905,"end":10517.53,"text":"立期的補貼,因為這個公股航庫跟這個內政部的住宅基金有合計補貼兩碼啦是的,那是因為央行的升息,是陸續升息,不是一開始一開始新青鴛事實上那個我們的公股航庫事實上是從111年3月就開始自行吸收半碼,就是減少半碼的收取"},{"start":10526.614,"end":10527.394,"text":"當時說3年的利息補貼,是。好,那星期二到何時結束?"},{"start":10554.474,"end":10583.846,"text":"新清安沒有所謂的結束,沒有結束,只是利息補貼有結束。對,利息補貼到哪時候?115年的7月底。好,那我先請教一下部長,就是說我們的貸款額度有增加200萬,然後寬限期增加2年,然後寬限的還款年限也增加10年嘛,對不對?那我認為啦,新清安其實是民時不符,民時不符。這個新清安過去新年貸款有沒有一個年紀的限制啊?"},{"start":10585.755,"end":10614.87,"text":"過去是沒有一直都沒有年齡的限制但是呢40歲以下事實上佔了73%就是我們是鼓勵年輕人是以青壯族為主啊所以基本上都是用40歲來做一個劃分啊對那這是新親安齁這個齁你從18歲到88歲其實都可以買欸對不對但是73%、75%都是40歲以下的年輕人不一定喔那有些人可能是這一個這個父母買啊但是是用年輕人的這個名義也都有可能啊"},{"start":10616.602,"end":10638.544,"text":"父母出錢?對阿父母出錢阿那但是說名字上面是年輕人的名字是﹖然後也跟委員報道對我的意思是說阿就是說我們這個新青安齁這個沒有任何的年齡限制我們只要這個成年就可以了就算父母有房子但是呢這個我子女呢是成年就可以他只要成年人他沒有房子就可以嘛對不對"},{"start":10640.035,"end":10658.225,"text":"對阿,他是這個,這個第一個齁,跟青年其實沒有什麼關係,我說過齁,他60歲也可以買,80歲也可以買,所以他跟新青安齁,這個跟青年是畫不上關係的。那這個卓院長齁,他有提到說新青安其實齁,補貼的這個原因是非常好,是幫助年輕人買房。"},{"start":10659.468,"end":10670.724,"text":"那這個時候房價高漲也沒有說單一的元素不一定都歸就在新清安但是他也認為新清安可能會有一些問題所以他也特別召開了會議 對不對"},{"start":10673.797,"end":10690.052,"text":"部長也有參加嗎?有參加那這個部長這個會議中有沒有提出什麼樣的一個這個來遏止或是來解決這個新清安所衍生的一些問題?根本的報告在會議中我們大概就把新清安執行的情形做了一個分析報告"},{"start":10690.712,"end":10708.524,"text":"比如說我們報告裡面就是說事實上運用新安貸款然後去買的房屋一千五百萬就是總價是房屋總價不是貸款額多一千五百萬你們有三項解決的方法就對了嘛對那解決方法貸前貸後還有這些對貸前方法都有那等一下我要請教這些問題我就說這個主委員長他有提到然後這個他注意到一些問題了那這個內政部長劉士芳他有提到嘛"},{"start":10718.911,"end":10721.192,"text":"他認為這樣對房市的意志會有一點效果所以他呼籲中央銀行還有財政部在考慮新清安貸款的時候不宜再加碼補助這是內政部的部長他的說法"},{"start":10737.117,"end":10754.549,"text":"其實央行總裁楊金榮其實講得更多了在上次召開聯席會議的時候他提到說新清安房貸是利益良善屬於政府健全房市的一環但是呢但是第一個造成移轉動作增加有它的衝擊第二呢"},{"start":10755.109,"end":10775.638,"text":"央行也去調查供股行庫的新清安房貸主要是有些房產是在父母的名下但是以子女為借款人央行關注的焦點是說當子女去申貸新清安的時候是否會涉及到央行對第二戶貸款的管制措施這是央行的"},{"start":10776.258,"end":10805.505,"text":"那他也提醒年輕人要注意財務管理不要只看目前還有警示呢房貸主如果還不起債務的話銀行也會跟著受害但是呢對於有什麼漏洞這是財政部的職責央行不會越主帶袍這是央行的說法所以請教一下這個我剛提到有關這個卓院長還包含這一個內政部長還有央行總裁金管會可能也有沒注意到那財政部的做法"},{"start":10806.992,"end":10818.736,"text":"我們的經濟措施包含就是說對於公股、行舖在辦理新清案貸款的時候,你在撥貸前要確實的查核是不是屬於投資客還有人頭部的模式。這個部分其實銀行工會都有規範相關的太陽。"},{"start":10828.459,"end":10834.024,"text":"所以這個太陽事實上是歷年累積下來這種太陽去做匯總的所以在影響在貸款的時候之前就要做加強這方面的一個審查那另外呢對於貸後的管理已經積查也要強化對就是我知道你有貸錢跟貸後但是我是問你說你真的查的到嗎?你的工具夠用嗎?我們的竭盡所能竭盡所能齁"},{"start":10853.72,"end":10876.128,"text":"那另外對於新貸戶他就要寫切結書告訴他說你如果有違規的情況被你們抓到會怎麼樣當然違規的情況第一個他不符合清安貸款的一個資格條件當然就不應該享用清安貸款的一些優惠比如說利息的一個補貼就不能享用啦對不對好所以把他追回來對但是至於這個貸款其他的他"},{"start":10876.648,"end":10878.25,"text":"如果被抓到的話,他付出的成本會高嗎?"},{"start":10899.902,"end":10920.929,"text":"他就改為一般房貸而已啊那他買房子申請貸款那你算一下他這樣會差多少錢?這個沒有算過要看他貸款的額度跟怎麼計算好那如果1000萬是用40年咧會差多少?13萬啊利息補貼大概一年13萬"},{"start":10922.19,"end":10939.489,"text":"三年13萬三年?因為利息補貼只有三年的期限,最長只有三年,到115年的期限所以被你們追回來才13萬而已嘛,對不對?對啊,可是我這樣說好像那個效果真的有限啊但是寬限期也可能會重新談啊"},{"start":10940.59,"end":10966.066,"text":"對阿寬憲期要重新談寬憲期最長是40年嘛不是寬憲期是5年5年齁那5年那他可能那你就縮短那之前是3年那我的意思是說齁就算違規被你們抓到了那個利息補貼損失才十幾萬而已阿那你知道嗎他過了5年之後他把房子賣掉了現在很多都是這種投資客阿過了5年之後把房子賣掉了他的價差都是幾百萬以上欸"},{"start":10969.397,"end":10988.155,"text":"有喔部長,你只要看現在的媒體他都幫你試算出來了現在的房價跟5年後的房價在價差可能有到數百萬很多年輕人為什麼說現在要趕快去申請這個新清安他們心裡就是說我現在不買的話以後價錢會越來越高啊"},{"start":10989.316,"end":11012.333,"text":"現在政府有這筆錢讓我去跟銀行貸款利率又這麼低寬限5年可以延長到40年對他們來講我現在不買以後買價格會更高所以我才認為說你以後追回來才十幾萬利息補貼但是那5年之後5年之後如果賣出去的話你價差是數百萬所以這個根本不符合比例吧部長"},{"start":11019.326,"end":11039.972,"text":"委員我想這個當然第一個是多少會賺多少這個其實誰也說不準因為房地產的趨勢但是房地產趨勢是往上漲的趨勢是往上漲但是漲的幅度漲的幅度一定高於十幾萬的利息補貼啦所以我的意思是說講起來好像有三大管制措施但是對於投資人、投機人來講根本沒有什麼殺傷力"},{"start":11046.174,"end":11065.376,"text":"我想這個部分跟新青安貸款的用意不符的部分我們會去做剛剛講的精進的一些措施那其他的部分內政部也都在處理對阿我知道啦我只是點出來就是說就在財政部的手段這方面你立行補貼把它收起來寬限年限把它縮短對我來講痛不癢阿"},{"start":11067.717,"end":11081.083,"text":"我想政府這樣做是幫助年輕人沒有房子去買,其實要珍惜這個我們都知道,這個政策也沒有說不好,但是我們知道說它有一些漏洞了,所以我們要知道說它漏洞在哪裡那再請問一下,這個40年的話有人試算過啦,如果是借了這個1000萬的話,40年它是要償還1550萬是不是?"},{"start":11089.713,"end":11090.594,"text":"五年寬限期結束之後,償還本金壓力"},{"start":11116.781,"end":11142.98,"text":"會大增。如果是這個就算用40年的這個利息來看每個月5年之後每個月要償還3.46萬每個月喔但是我們這個2022年的我們平均受雇薪資的中位數統計這個全年才51萬52萬就是未來啦他每個月償還本金的這個支出會佔他的收入大概六七成以上啦"},{"start":11143.6,"end":11154.01,"text":"這個對於年輕人來講是非常大的一個壓力啦這些都是點出來大家所點出來的一些問題啦希望這個你們最後這個院長還沒有最後確定嘛最後這個心態問題要怎麼解決嘛"},{"start":11158.08,"end":11188.012,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11188.292,"end":11202.98,"text":"政策就是盡量用我們的政策工具,把它被扭曲的部分再把它轉正過來好不好?是的,謝謝委員,是的。謝謝主席,謝謝部長。謝謝李坤誠委員的質詢,接著我們請張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員不在,接著我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"},{"start":11215.559,"end":11237.577,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長有請莊部長委員好部長好,辛苦了今天這個所得稅法的部分條文的修正本席有提出來針對現行條文的第88條有關這個擴角義務人擴角義務人"},{"start":11242.759,"end":11271.333,"text":"那本席所提出來的因為目前的就是機關機關跟機構是不一樣的等一下我再把條文給部長看另外就是行政法人也有行政法人法另外就是說這個破產財團之破產管理人這樣會比較明確然後信託行為之受託人"},{"start":11272.153,"end":11283.342,"text":"因管理、處分、信託、財產、首級、副資、薪資等等。這會比較明確。那我們看中央行政機關組織基準法第三條。機關,有機關的定義。"},{"start":11287.403,"end":11287.643,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":11311.259,"end":11336.232,"text":"中央行政機關組織基準法第3條規定的非常清楚既然我們要修正就把它修得更明確機關跟機構是不一樣的然後這個中央行政機關組織基準法第6條也寫得很清楚機關的名稱就是縣部委員會署級分署分級"},{"start":11337.781,"end":11350.845,"text":"然後碰到什麼這個五號發展中心他就是機構嘛就不在這個名稱裡面所以這個部分為了避免以後的爭議所以我還是建議把機關跟機構把它分開"},{"start":11353.586,"end":11379.708,"text":"另外就是行政法人法第二條也有特別明定行政法人的定義這個部分行政院版也有列入我們共同的來把它通過這個可以嗎?這個部長謝謝委員的指教大致上委員所提案的內容大概也都跟行政院的版本非常接近大概就是有關增加一個機構的構在裡面"},{"start":11381.567,"end":11409.949,"text":"那當然委員剛剛也把中央行政機關組織基準法裡面也提出來了但是因為就是說我們認為說基本上它也可以關也機關涵蓋可以到這個機構也就是它屬於機關的一環再其次也跟委員報告因為我們相關的稅法裡面都是用的一個機關如果我們單獨在這個地方用機關跨乎機構會顯得那個機關是不是涵蓋機構反而發射因為相關所有的稅法裡面都運用一個機關那它事實上也涵蓋了機構"},{"start":11412.151,"end":11427.684,"text":"按照你這樣的說法,行政法人也不能加上去,因為其他很多的稅法也沒有把行政法人放進去,這個部分我們再討論,因為其他很多的稅法也沒有把行政法人放進去。"},{"start":11431.82,"end":11454.105,"text":"這個還是 這個一直還沒有解決的這個0403地震那現在在繼續進行相關的這些重建這些重構之類後面很多工作要做但是我們還是要去解決這個行政院0403正在復原重建的方案裡面"},{"start":11455.925,"end":11469.072,"text":"稅費的減免。這裡面有提到中所稅、營所稅、營業稅、貨物稅、煙酒稅、牌照稅、房屋稅、地價稅、漁業稅、棄欄稅。其中地方稅的部分"},{"start":11470.721,"end":11495.103,"text":"有這個房屋稅、地價稅、娛樂稅這部分部長因為花蓮本來這個地方稅就很少本來地方稅就很窮困是不是這個部分我們財政部可以另外怎麼樣透過相關的這些預算去撥補他們的這個減少的部分"},{"start":11497.665,"end":11503.11,"text":"是,謝謝委員,我想這個部分確實地方稅的部分因為這次04、03的部分給以減免,那那個就會造成縣政府的稅率減少那這個部分中央也透過中央統籌特別稅款中央統籌分配稅款裡面特別款的部分"},{"start":11514.901,"end":11521.985,"text":"以及防災基金的部分給予一些補助,讓地方政府不要因為這個受到稅收受到影響,這個中央都有考慮到。"},{"start":11535.04,"end":11559.369,"text":"最後就是說上次本席在4月10號的時候就質詢了部長他也是在04、03之後所提的就是說房屋稅房屋稅因為他課的時間就是4月底大概就會4月底以前就會收到這個房屋稅然後這個稅是要繳前一年的"},{"start":11560.865,"end":11584.201,"text":"但是他已經這個房屋就沒有了他已經很困難了然後他還要去繳前一年的稅所以這部分上次我特別質詢部長是不是能夠救前一年的稅也能夠免繳這個部分思考到就是說他已經房屋毀損那之後當然沒有房屋稅"},{"start":11584.821,"end":11611.453,"text":"那之前的部分另外就是剛剛提到我們就用補助的方式給予這個你們有正式答覆了嗎?好我們也有的是不是我們到時候用書面一起給委員再把資料給書面給我好謝謝委員謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢接著我們楊瓊瑩委員我楊瓊瑩委員楊瓊瑩也不在接著鄭盛琴委員鄭盛琴委員鄭盛琴委員不在何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員也不在接著我們請邱志文委員質詢"},{"start":11623.175,"end":11638.924,"text":"謝謝主席,請部長休息一下休息一下休息一下請副會員署宋署長、官務署彭署長、國產署曾署長、台北國稅局吳局長、北京國稅局李局長想請教各位"},{"start":11648.3,"end":11655.889,"text":"同樣問題我在上禮拜在這個復議案的總諮詢的時候本來想請教這個部長但因為實際上的關係我想我就直接請教我們各署的署長跟局長就有關於這個違憲擴權的立法院支援刑事法通過之後目前這個復議案當然失敗了"},{"start":11669.224,"end":11698.04,"text":"那這個我們相關機關包括總統府包括行政院都提出釋憲或者暫時處分我想請教大家這個在執行公務我們很多基層同仁碰到任何問題在過去我想是由部長由署長來做相關的這個詢答那你有違憲擴權法院通過之後他可以調你任何立法院可以調你任何包括承辦同仁包括你的組長"},{"start":11699.818,"end":11706.222,"text":"所有的我們基層的公務人員都可能面臨到他國會來出席來接受詢問、調查"},{"start":11708.376,"end":11735.511,"text":"我先請教一下那個復稅署宋署長李夏霞這個我們有六區的國稅局啊局還有各區的計政所還有稅務同仁省一科、省二科、省三科還有所有同仁都可能在未來面對這些立法院擴權之後所進行的調查權或者這個執行權如果不出席他被處以刑責罰則"},{"start":11738.571,"end":11743.224,"text":"這部分啦,就你署長,您了解基層同仁的反應怎麼樣?"},{"start":11746.144,"end":11756.634,"text":"報告委員,這個整個法例如果真的,就是假設啦,真的生效了,然後整個規範也都出來的時候,原則上我們當然必須依法法案的,對。"},{"start":11770.592,"end":11788.893,"text":"有沒有聽到他們的反應目前是沒有特別去了解基層同仁的反應你的未來所有的基層事務所還有國稅局兩位局長也在兩位局長可能了解這個吳局長跟李局長吳局長跟李局長"},{"start":11790.163,"end":11805.826,"text":"兩位,你們這個,你們下轄很多計程所,好多審一科、審二科這些同仁都跟民眾的權益有相關系,對不對?又處理很多案件,那他們會不會面對未來立法院進行調查?那他們的感覺是怎麼樣?"},{"start":11807.476,"end":11809.298,"text":"同仁有沒有跟你反映過?目前倒是沒有但是就是"},{"start":11823.195,"end":11850.495,"text":"有一些稅務案件要解決的我們都會盡力然後是依法去課稅對,但是現在調查權無限擴張嘛已經到違憲的階段嘛我可以把你這個國稅局下轄的計程所某某主任把他調來或是審一科、審二科的科長調來他不能拒絕出席捏你要去了解他們的感受這個可能是在違憲宣判之前他可能會面對這些問題"},{"start":11851.823,"end":11869.759,"text":"那李局長,同仁有沒有跟你反映過?跟我們報告目前我們沒有接受同仁的反映過你要不要去了解?好,我們會去問你了解,包括宋署長你要去了解所有我們稅務同仁第一線的他們可能面對到未來國會面臨到這種違憲濫權的這些調查或者質詢那這個公安部署"},{"start":11876.496,"end":11882.447,"text":"博主長,你下轄有臺北官,如果這官長、副官長什麼、我們官務人員全部被調來問,他們會有這個疑慮?"},{"start":11885.732,"end":11912.514,"text":"跟委員報告,謝謝委員關切我們基層同仁對於這個違法調查這些可能產生的一些問題的關切不過因為我們基層同仁大家都逆來順受因為有效的法律我們就會去執行逆來順受,那是你逆來順受還是同仁逆來順受你要去瞭解同仁的感覺你要內部開個會去瞭解同仁的想法不是你逆來順受"},{"start":11914.235,"end":11933.345,"text":"很多事情不能逆來順受啊!不合理的就是要抗爭,不合理就是要積極爭取啊!你那逆來順受齁,這個我覺得有點不太能夠接受。如果在國會對你不合理的要求、不合理的質詢或是對你人身攻擊,你接受嗎?"},{"start":11934.468,"end":11955.656,"text":"不能接受嘛對不對你也要求你你可以逆來順受那也可以要求你逆來順受我覺得這樣態度不行我建議所有的這個不管是官務啦國庫署啦或者是這個國產署國稅局跟相關同仁做一些多談瞭解他們的想法因為他們可能未來會面臨到國會這種違法擴權對這種諮詢或者是調查不能用逆來順受喔"},{"start":11964.841,"end":11989.774,"text":"該具以例證就要具以例證該這個辯護的時候就要辯護所以我要拜託這個特別拜託馮署長你要去跟你們各館長各基層的人辦一個座談或了解他們的想法那這個郭山鼠郭山鼠曾署長你有北區你有中區你有南區下面有很多這個相關的同仁在執行業務"},{"start":11991.325,"end":12007.072,"text":"他們質疑又非常多,樣態非常多,難免會有涉及一些這個,比方說立法院需要關心的事項,如果把你的這個南區分署長調來問,或者一個一個我們基層的同仁調來問,他們的想法怎麼樣?"},{"start":12010.266,"end":12028.027,"text":"包括國產署所有的同仁都是依法行政那如果有各機關對於我們行政過程當中有質疑的部分我們都會一一釐清但是過去從來沒有基層的同仁到立法院來接受備詢但是未來有可能最基層的都會來立法院接受詢問"},{"start":12028.888,"end":12053.929,"text":"我想大部分應該都是署長會出席比較多,所以同仁都說署長要保重嗎?不是,所以在擴權之後你所有同仁只要執行公務有相關因為調查需要都可以把他叫來立法院質詢欸不是你說你鄭署長來代表,不是這樣子欸所以你要了解這個立法院執行法通過對你們同仁在執行業務所受的影響對心裡面的衝擊,我看你們好像都不了解"},{"start":12055.646,"end":12057.187,"text":"好,是的,謝謝委員的指教,是"},{"start":12084.79,"end":12086.774,"text":"其實在立法院那兩天的質詢裡面院長也都說了很清楚"},{"start":12094.878,"end":12121.452,"text":"也就是說對於這個法的一些做法以及為什麼要提出復議的理由等等那就涉及到機關還有我們相關的公務員甚至人民的一個權利會有受影響我想這個部分院長已經說得非常清楚我相信我們同仁也可以從詢答裡面去了解這個部分現在狀況你要了解現在復議失敗對不對對好 總統公布之後我們提出釋憲暫停處分對不對但這個空窗期你如果公布之後這反正就生效喔"},{"start":12121.992,"end":12123.033,"text":"蘇星群委員不在王世堅"},{"start":12150.235,"end":12153.038,"text":"謝謝主席我請莊部長要請莊部長委員好莊部長這兩個月一個新的議題就是關於新青南"},{"start":12167.318,"end":12168.819,"text":"但是從5月你們喊說要加強勾基以來啊卻創下光5月"},{"start":12192.991,"end":12216.021,"text":"這個新清安貸款的金額跟戶數是創下9個月來最高啦也就是說事實上你們是勾額不羈雷大雨小沒有實質的作為你所任命的9大行戶董事長總經理他們不當一回事結果"},{"start":12219.178,"end":12240.06,"text":"反而我們立法院跟財政部的要求你們打算要去勾機去做查額之後反而激出另外一波的這個新清安的貸款潮他們搶著上車"},{"start":12243.942,"end":12269.571,"text":"部長如果是真的需要的青年的首構族這個我們沒話講可是現在所知道的並不然其實都已經被部分不肖建商透過人頭甚至很多炒作房屋的大戶他們也利用人頭"},{"start":12271.392,"end":12291.751,"text":"來利用新清安貸款,那麼他們取得大量的房舍再去轉租。那這些情形,好啦,我們總諮詢之後,行政院有注意啦,行政院也打算這個禮拜四說要公佈決策找你們去談,其實方向很簡單。"},{"start":12294.232,"end":12321.842,"text":"行政院跟我們立法院看法我們幾位立委的看法我相信跟你們財政部的做法也都一樣都認為有一些共識結論就是說啊貸錢要嚴格審查那麼強化貸後的稽查管理還有要求他們簽自助的切結書但是我要請問你的就是說到底"},{"start":12323.988,"end":12349.441,"text":"這幾家九大公營行庫啊他們到底是跟進不跟進到底要不要實質來配合政府這個政策還是他們默許他們放任新清安還是任由他們的授信人員繼續再做再搭配建設公司銷售他們的漁屋然後提高房價"},{"start":12350.919,"end":12376.249,"text":"你認為呢?你有沒有辦法指揮這九大公營航庫?我相信公營航庫都會配合政府的政策去做那對於所採取的相關的經濟措施也會去落實執行的你就簡單一句說會配合我就跟你講說五月他就不配合啊五月那時候你講的時候五月就只有財政部講就應該算數喔"},{"start":12379.023,"end":12394.796,"text":"這九大公營行庫都是你任命的董事長總經理喔照說你交代一下就像地震他們就立刻站好好好檢討欸結果不然他繼續放他的款"},{"start":12396.658,"end":12410.145,"text":"所以啊他們吃定了說啊光是你看我光是講這個戶數他想說我這麼大的戶數如何去去勾結光是5月就撥貸8273戶8273戶撥貸636億元喔"},{"start":12418.803,"end":12435.275,"text":"八千多五喔他就吃定了你說好吧你財政部你怎麼去勾結這樣子的心態那八月還總放款數光是八月光是前五大行庫他們就波待超過一千億那"},{"start":12438.918,"end":12443.56,"text":"新興安房貸佔了636億 戶數這麼多 他想說來吧 要查你來查 錯了 查就是放款行窟的責任 你放的款你就去查 查出來把結果告訴我們 是不是應當這樣"},{"start":12456.438,"end":12480.794,"text":"是應該這樣啊好啊那你跟他要求啊你什麼時候可以給我們給我們財政委員會一個報告說查的怎麼樣難道還要等到禮拜四難道要等行政院再下達命令嗎行政院已經很清楚包括我好幾位立委我們在對院長總質詢的時候都提到這個問題啊院長也深覺啊這確實是個問題因為"},{"start":12483.616,"end":12502.746,"text":"除了多代出這些假借新青安的名義其實在做炒作的以外最主要也拉高了房價光南港部長光南港這個都不是我演聳聽根據實價銷售這個紀錄光南港一坪就增加20萬"},{"start":12512.403,"end":12531.754,"text":"這幾個月來造價沒有增加建商地已經買了合建的契約也都簽了他成本沒增加之下一建坪多賣20萬如果我們一個上班族買個30坪就要多600萬等於同樣的房子同樣的地段"},{"start":12533.444,"end":12546.436,"text":"跟他買一戶在這兩個月新清安住長之下要多600萬多送這個建商一部保時捷你才有辦法取得這個房屋天吶一戶多600萬"},{"start":12550.339,"end":12566.632,"text":"我們生土小民辛辛苦苦的靠那一點微薄的薪水來過活我們竟然要籌集一部寶石節的價格送給建商才有辦法買得30坪的小房屋而且這個地方還是在南港"},{"start":12571.338,"end":12581.612,"text":"還不是在市中心那其他地方更是大概現在我們台北市平均房價光5月我們台北市整體平均房價高達97.55萬一百萬找4500塊錢"},{"start":12589.115,"end":12616.523,"text":"所以我認為這個情況要嘛財政部不做要不然你就說九大公營行庫董事長總經理以後不要來找你任命否則你任命他的你就要管得住他哪一個調皮搗蛋哪一個抵制你就把哪一個抄完掉不是嗎現在也該是這九大行庫董事長總經理大概任期也都快到了吧"},{"start":12617.5,"end":12620.562,"text":"正式你可以好好整頓的時候啊所以好這個議題我先到這邊我就看後續你6月份的處理5月份已經造成房價高漲"},{"start":12633.328,"end":12652.265,"text":"那也激增了8000多戶新青安擠出了他們趕上車的這一批那就看你6月份你的處理啦那我再來要跟你提不合時宜的稅制這個我講了三個月我一直在講說娛樂稅、印花稅、汽車關稅、機車貨物稅、保險品關稅"},{"start":12657.95,"end":12673.691,"text":"這些我認為很多不合時宜的應該整個取消或者調降那這個我最主要要跟你說你刪除富人稅的不對啦我希望第一步應該將刪除掉107年你已經刪除的"},{"start":12674.988,"end":12689.084,"text":"這個最高等級級距的這一級距我認為要恢復光恢復一年就可以增加100億更何況這個級距還不算最高你如果對我們台灣上萬位啊"},{"start":12691.583,"end":12717.328,"text":"這種數十億的富豪級我與他們一位代表郭台銘他就講了他說我們國家這個有很多需要建設很多需要救助的地方他說趕快來跟我們徵富人稅吧他也講了六七年我認為除了救急遽恢復以外再往上再增加幾個急遽對這些超級富豪他們願意拿出來啊那拿出來什麼用意"},{"start":12720.714,"end":12739.751,"text":"因為我們一方面勞保已經逐年財務惡化的情況都已經出現了很可能勞保在政府貼補之外還可能隨時會破產那另外我們需要稅金的地方多的那我們對身障者的保護"},{"start":12741.84,"end":12768.876,"text":"我們對青年貸款的協助太多啦所以我再一次呼籲部長你不能說輕輕鬆鬆隨便寫個兩張紙就答覆我說啊你沒要做就丟啦這個不重要錯了負能稅光你刪掉的那個級距一年就100億我希望這個級距立刻恢復同時往上再加幾個級距另外我認為啊這個"},{"start":12772.078,"end":12775.401,"text":"關稅 汽車關稅 為什麼一直跟你提 欸 玉龍這個阿斗啊 我3個月前跟你講 現在他又來了 老毛病又復發 他"},{"start":12785.168,"end":12801.433,"text":"假借國產車的名義他現在在幫中共銷售汽車他把中共的AMG車子以零組件進口化整為零在台灣組裝玉龍這10年來從2015年到今年"},{"start":12805.794,"end":12822.411,"text":"他對外銷售率是零耶!外銷零!結果他現在拼命在幫我們最大的敵人中共在幫他們銷售他們的車先前AMG車、油車賣了還不夠現在又進AMG的電動車天啊!"},{"start":12829.446,"end":12851.971,"text":"電動車現在他打算以低價來打垮歐美電動車那你試想歐美日是我們自由聯盟的好朋友我們棄歐美日與不顧他們的電動車進來我們要增高價的關稅因為我們說我們要保護禦樓"},{"start":12853.425,"end":12874.996,"text":"結果這個阿斗就利用這一點他開了小門讓中國的車輛進來在他的保護之下低價據傾銷而且部長中國的電動車這還有投資的問題耶上次我都講過啦好啦現在他大大大進來啦所以我再一次跟部長說"},{"start":12876.468,"end":12883.53,"text":"我們不應該再保護這個阿斗保護這個阿斗保護70年了還要保護他多久所以我認為這個關稅的部分、棄存關稅的部分至少針對裕隆這個阿斗這麼惡劣的行徑我們財政部應該立刻想出什麼樣的方法把這個橋門把它堵住可不可以"},{"start":12906.265,"end":12921.814,"text":"關稅的部分除了除了稅之外其實還涉及到國內產業那跟產業主管機關就很有關係所以這個部分我們可以掐尋經濟部的意見看要怎麼處理你又說經濟部意見你上次說了說要聽經濟部意見我跑去問了經濟部長他也說這個有疑慮他說要來問財政部長"},{"start":12931.172,"end":12954.482,"text":"那我乾脆約你們兩位你們兩位這樣啦主席不好意思齁我站最後30秒就好我乾脆就約你們兩位部長經濟部長財政部長那就到我辦公室你們兩個好好去喝咖啡好不好好謝謝王世堅委員的質詢今日發言委員均已詢答完畢現在進行所得稅部分條文修正草案"},{"start":12955.582,"end":12983.534,"text":"所得稅法部分條文修正草案行政院提案第88條第一項第二款對照現行條文前段文字修正為機關、行政法人、團體、學校、事業、破產財團之破產管理人、執行業務者或信託行為之受託人應管理處分信託財產"},{"start":12984.975,"end":13006.406,"text":"第二項默劇刪除資質及與同現行條文第89條對照現行條文第一項第一款刪除負責人三字第二款後段修正為其扣繳義務人為機關、行政法人、團體、學校、事業、破產財團之破產管理人、執行業務者或信託行為之受託人"},{"start":13007.742,"end":13035.86,"text":"第二項增加他簽不明四字第三項前段修正為機關、行政法人、團體、學校、事業、破產財團之破產管理人執行業務者或信託行為之受託人後段增加但書但機關、行政法人、團體、學校、事業由解散廢紙合併轉讓財策變更或破產管理人處理之破產事務經法院裁定終結或終止時"},{"start":13037.32,"end":13061.866,"text":"應隨時填發免扣繳平單並於10日內列單申報主管激增機關。第92條修正第一項但書為但機關行政法人團體學校事業由解散廢紙合併轉讓財策變更或破產管理人處理之破產事務經法院裁定終結或終止時。第二項後段增加文字"},{"start":13063.12,"end":13091.072,"text":"待扣稅款之日起算10日內欲連續3日以上國定假日者所扣稅款繳納、扣繳平單申報、核驗及發給期間延長5日。第94條之一修正第一項序文依第89條第三項本文第92條第一項本文及第92條之一規定應填發免扣繳平單、扣繳平單及相關平單之機關"},{"start":13092.031,"end":13101.97,"text":"行政法人、團體、學校、事業、破產財團之破產管理人、執行業務者、信託行為之受託人及其他扣繳義務人"},{"start":13107.762,"end":13134.984,"text":"第111條現行條文前段規定一列第一項後段規定一為第二項並修正如下政府機關、行政法人或公立學校違反第89條第三項規定為一線或為據實申報或為一線填發免扣繳平單者應通知其主管機關或監督機關多處其依法辦理前項已為應申報及填發免扣繳平單者"},{"start":13136.389,"end":13157.426,"text":"違反第89條第三項規定為一線或為據實申報或為一線填發免扣繳平單者處1500元以上、2萬元以下罰還並通知現期補報或填發藉其未補報或填發者處3000元以上、9萬元以下罰還第112條對照現行條文第一項修正為"},{"start":13162.096,"end":13166.643,"text":"納稅義務人於現繳納稅款者應加徵滯納金,於30日仍未繳納者,其為營利失業者,積增機關得停止其營業至納稅義務人繳納之日止。"},{"start":13175.919,"end":13197.608,"text":"第114條對照現行條文,第一項第二款修正為按原罰還上限、下限金額處罰。扣繳義務人以依本法扣繳稅款而未依第92條規定之期限按時填報或填發扣繳平單者,除限期責令補報或填發外,除1500元以上、20000元以下罰還。"},{"start":13199.228,"end":13220.593,"text":"經激增機關現期責令補報或填發扣繳評單,扣繳義務人未依限按時補報或填發者,處3000元以上、45000元以下罰還。第114條之3對照現行條文,將現行第一項及第二項固定減半處罰規定,修正為按原罰還上限以下限金額處罰。"},{"start":13222.213,"end":13246.421,"text":"第114條之三,營利事業於中華民國106年12月31日以前分配於股東、社員或出資者之87年度或以後年度之股利或營餘,為依第102條之一第一項規定之期限,依規定格式按時填報或填發股利平單者,除限期責令補報或填發外。"},{"start":13246.681,"end":13249.524,"text":"處1500元以上、3萬元以下罰還經濟徵機關限期責令補報或填發鼓勵評單營利事業未依限按時補報或填發者處3000元以上、6萬元以下罰還"},{"start":13263.854,"end":13280.387,"text":"於逆次月於中華民國107年1月1日以後分配於股東、社員或出資者之87年度或以後年度之鼓勵或營餘,為依第102條之一第一項規定之期限,亦規定格式按時填報或填發鼓勵評擔者。"},{"start":13282.128,"end":13309.527,"text":"除限期責令補報或填發外除1500元以上、3萬元以下罰還經濟徵機關限期責令補報或填發鼓勵評單營利事業未依限按時補報或填發者除3000元以上、6萬元以下罰還第126條配合法治體力著作文字修正修正第二項及千年、千月、千日修正之條文施行日期由行政院定之等文字"},{"start":13311.175,"end":13324.419,"text":"委員鄭天財等17人提案第88條第一項第二款對照行政院版本前段文字除機關修正為機關瓜湖go瓜湖其餘同行政院提案條文第89條第92條第94條之一第111條除機關修正為機關瓜湖go瓜湖其餘同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13340.319,"end":13367.021,"text":"第112條、第114條、第114條之三、第126條均同行政院提案條文委員顏寬恒等20人提案第88條同行政院提案條文第89條對照行政院提案條文除第一項第一款保留負責人三字其餘同行政院提案條文第92條同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13367.898,"end":13391.653,"text":"第94除第一項序文其他扣繳義務人及信託行為之受託人其餘同行政院提案條文第111條同行政院提案條文第112條除第一項修正為納稅義務人於現繳納稅款者因稅捐積增法第20條規定每餘3日按滯納金之金額加增1%滯納金"},{"start":13394.332,"end":13408.498,"text":"於30日仍未繳納者,除由激增機關移送強制執行外,其為營利失業者,激增機關得停止其營業致納稅義務人繳納之日子,其與同行政院提案條文。宣讀完畢"},{"start":13412.708,"end":13427.057,"text":"好,那我們就請各位就座,我們就進行協商。那就請部會部長、相關的署長就座。如果跟這個協商條文沒有相關的這個署長就可以先行離席。"},{"start":13441.803,"end":13468.701,"text":"好 那我們就進行所得稅法部分條文修正草案的這個協商那有關於第88條的部分請問各位兩位委員有沒有意見如果沒意見我們就按照行政院版通過行政院提案通過行政院提案通過第89條請問兩位委員有沒有意見好 沒有意見我們就按照行政院提案通過"},{"start":13471.408,"end":13490.251,"text":"好來第92條請問各位有沒有意見好沒有意見就按照行政院提案通過94條之一請問各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就按照行政院版本通過第110條請問各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就按照111條111條"},{"start":13499.622,"end":13501.184,"text":"111條,請問各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":13501.184,"end":13510.413,"text":"沒有意見,我們就按照行政院版通過。第112條,請問各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":13510.413,"end":13518.201,"text":"沒有意見,我們就按照行政院版本通過。第114條,請問各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":13518.201,"end":13521.564,"text":"那個李崑禎委員剛到齁,沒有意見齁,我們就按照行政院版通過。"},{"start":13525.095,"end":13542.87,"text":"來接下來我們是第114條之3請問各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就按照行政院版通過第126條請問各位有沒有意見沒有意見我們就按照行政院版通過好那審查完畢謝謝 謝謝各位來配合"},{"start":13564.445,"end":13566.826,"text":"好,協商完成,請議事人宣讀協商結論"},{"start":13569.008,"end":13573.65,"text":"協商結論第88條、第89條、第92條、第94條之一、第111條、第112條、第114條、第114條之三、第126條均照行政院提案通過宣讀完畢好請問各位委員對協商結論有異議"},{"start":13591.479,"end":13608.64,"text":"沒有異議,好,照協商結論通過本次會議做如下決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請求補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另有要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":13609.966,"end":13625.626,"text":"所得稅法部分條文草案等3案審查完畢案擬具審查報告提報院會討論,院會討論群不須交由黨團協商。院會討論時有本席補充說明。請問各位委員對以上決議有異議?"},{"start":13627.248,"end":13634.089,"text":"好,無異議通過本次會議議程已進行完畢,堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併並入紀錄,刊登公報並請議事委員協助處理,散會提醒各位委員下午1點半還有一個日時的協商,謝謝"},{"start":13655.257,"end":13668.16,"text":"市長 那個案子你要記得處理了欸 那天啦 那天李赤有去有有有 那個李榮淑那個案子 他們不用處理 你們會問我怎麼解決案子?"},{"start":13668.16,"end":13668.68,"text":"台中的那個嗎?"},{"start":13668.68,"end":13674.082,"text":"那個是南區的喔喔喔 南區的 有機會嗎?"},{"start":13674.082,"end":13682.304,"text":"嗯 他們說已經 在調查我之後再給你 好好 這個不用 這個不用 這個不用"},{"start":13687.43,"end":13687.63,"text":"委員會議委員會議"},{"start":13721.539,"end":13721.939,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"154261","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154261","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1c17cb6acf36ff36d08df44dd9bf560a23176ac657cb8ac9cd4763c261ae1c13a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"10:39:12 - 10:51:08","影片長度":"00:11:56","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:39:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:51:08+08:00","duration":716,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":527,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（10時39分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否先請國庫署陳柏誠陳署長。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：陳署長。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。陳署長……"],["陳署長柏誠：委員早。"],["羅委員明才：萬眾矚目，大家都在期待新任的陳署長可以為財劃法多多規劃、運籌帷幄，因為你是第一線工作的，你應該要做好最好的準備，讓財政部長可以瞭解情況。你我都知我們部長過去的經驗是在國產部分比較嫻熟，稅的部分、財政的部分，你就應該要好好來擘劃一下。請問現在這20個版本裡面，你比較屬意哪一個版本？已經開始運籌帷幄、有開始在規劃國庫署心裡的版本了嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：跟委員報告，現在的20個版本都有各自他們想要達成的目標，譬如說有的希望垂直分配的金額要放大，有的則希望水平分配的時候可以用人口比例來處理，但是不管哪一個方案其實都會存在一些問題，尤其是水平分配的部分，一定是要經過各個利害關係人，也就是各地方政府他們要有一個共識啦，不然的話……"],["羅委員明才：關於共識，你開始跟22縣市有接觸了嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：感謝召委上次在立法院已經辦過了一次公聽會……"],["羅委員明才：需不需要再來一次？"],["陳署長柏誠：上次在做條文討論的時候，召委也有提示說您還會再辦……"],["羅委員明才：好，沒問題。"],["陳署長柏誠：財政部自己……"],["羅委員明才：可是到現在沒有人說希望我辦啊，我問好多委員，如果召委可以，郭召委也可以辦啊，就是我們集思廣益嘛，大家多多來聽。不過你剛剛講的22縣市，看似複雜，其實是很簡單的啦，這22個縣市裡面，就垂直分配來說，有問題的是哪幾個？"],["陳署長柏誠：如果以地方政府來說的話，因為他們都只考量到地方自己的施政目標而已，所以當然會希望中央的財源下放的金額越大越好。但是我想整個政府整體資源的分配絕對不是只用地方角度的觀點，中央政府在一些經濟發展的政策或者是全體國民社會安全這樣一個機制的建立，還有一些重大的公共建設，甚至國防、外交，其實都是需要由中央這邊來處理。"],["羅委員明才：對，錯綜複雜啦，最後一定會有個答案出來，就好像25年前通過的財劃法一樣，就是過就過了嘛，大家也許不滿意，但還是普遍可以接受。就垂直分配的部分，有沒有哪一個縣市覺得應該要做什麼修改，讓它優於去年跟前年的？"],["陳署長柏誠：我想目前中央這邊依據財政收支劃分法的比率撥出去的金額，其實對各地方政府來說，目前是夠用的，所以顯示在他們的財政賸餘……"],["羅委員明才：都夠用，是不是？"],["陳署長柏誠：或者是舉債比例的降低，不論是財政賸餘的提高或舉債比例的降低，都是往好的趨勢在發展。"],["羅委員明才：你上次跟22縣市的首長見面是什麼時候？或是相關人員的見面。"],["陳署長柏誠：就是上次召委您在這邊召開的公聽會。"],["羅委員明才：就是在立法院？我還不知道立法院那麼好用啊！"],["陳署長柏誠：我們自己在地方財政聯繫會報也都有跟他們討論這樣的議題。"],["羅委員明才：署長，你要趁暑假期間多多召開一些會議，或者三天兩夜也無所謂，你再把召開的時間、地點跟我們講一下，我再送珍珠奶茶、送雞排過去給你們加油、打氣跟鼓勵，然後我順便聽聽看22縣市究竟在垂直分配的部分有哪一個縣市是有問題的。其實就現在這個大概的邏輯裡面，每個只要增加30%，跟過去比起來根本就沒有人有意見了啊，如果你增加30%，跟去年比，有意見的，你把名單交給我，我再一一來垂詢，問他們問題是出在哪裡。當然錢不可以亂花，建造了很多蚊子館，造成很多的浪費，這不是全民所樂見的，但是你應該抓到大概七七八八、大概八成九成大家的接受程度，慢慢再收斂，一定就會有答案出來，你願不願意為這個25年沒有修法的財政收支劃分法來盡一點力量？"],["陳署長柏誠：跟委員報告，我們國庫署目前在做的事情就是朝這個方向在努力。"],["羅委員明才：好啦，我希望以你的專業，還有你們的辛苦跟研究，就是要趕快推出，因為這個不是什麼政治性對立的議題，而是全民嗷嗷待哺的一個重要法案，過了以後，可以改善很多的城鄉差距，有很多地方真的是很需要的，你當然說什麼……其實在這裡可能你一時答不出來沒有關係，你就22縣市去抽絲剝繭，我想你如果辦個三天兩夜的研習會，你願意一個一個慢慢談，我相信一定就會有答案出來，與其不做，倒不如著手開始動起來做，不然9月22號號開議之前如果版本沒出來，那黃珊珊委員怎麼辦？還好其他委員都在等啦，你如果真的都不動的話，最後被迫無奈、沒辦法，就國民黨的版本要通過，我不曉得這是不是最好，當然是比去年的好，但是有沒有更好的，我們也期盼有更好的，大家一起來討論，我們海納百川，我們心胸是開闊的，只要是好的、是對的，大家一起共同來支持嘛，好不好？"],["陳署長柏誠：是，謝謝委員，我們會積極努力辦理。"],["羅委員明才：陳署長，加油，希望你歷史留名，叫做陳柏誠講究誠信，萬事一定成，好不好？"],["陳署長柏誠：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝，接下來請莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長好。青安成家，青安青安，希望成家一路都平安。我覺得你們這個內容，剛開始在做，的確獲得很多年輕人的熱烈迴響。請問這一波房地產又飆漲，到底是什麼地方出了問題？我相信不是財政部，你覺得呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，房屋價格波動的影響因素有很多，譬如說市場的利率，還有股市熱絡、資金充沛，還有地區產業的發展，還有經濟的基本面好的話，還有重大公共建設陸續到位，尤其是交通建設，另外還有對於房市的預期心理，甚至有人對於通膨認為要保值而買房，所以影響房屋價格的因素蠻多的。新青安貸款事實上是協助年輕人在沒有自有住家房屋的前提下，讓他可以去買一間房子，政府給予協助，譬如貸款額度的提高、年限的拉長、寬限期的延長，甚至在升息的時候，因應央行升息，所以給予一些利息的補貼，我想出發點是這樣，而且也確實協助了大部分年輕人能夠買到自己想要住家用的房屋。"],["羅委員明才：是，謝謝。所以現在外界說房屋飆漲其實不是財政部的錯，這句話對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想房屋漲價的因素很多，如剛剛所說的，但是對於有一些不當的話術或是投機行為，比如說像網路揪團去買，這個事實上是要抑制的，我想政府各部門也都注意到了，內政部也會去做相關的一些處理。"],["羅委員明才：所以這樣一路走來，有沒有人錯？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得應該是說，你運用新青安貸款去做不是自住用，而是去做投機，甚至轉租，不是我們要協助的對象，這樣的話是不應該的。"],["羅委員明才：對，有人犯錯，可是最主要機關單位都沒有錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：對於這個部分，我們知道有這樣的情形，就應該強化我們貸前的徵審以及貸後的追蹤管制，這是要做到的，以免好的政策被別人拿去做不當的使用。"],["羅委員明才：所以出發點是對的？"],["莊部長翠雲：出發點是良善的。"],["羅委員明才：良善的，其實我也覺得啦，我也認同。至於房價會漲的因素實在太多太多了，譬如說有位黃仁勳先生，你認不認識？"],["莊部長翠雲：在電視上常常看到他。"],["羅委員明才：是，他如果回來臺灣，當然會帶動臺灣的成長啊！譬如本席也公開請經濟部來邀約，拜託輝達公司總部可以設立在新店，因為新店有寶高軟體智慧園區，有第二期、第三期，現在還在推。第一期的部分，Tesla、鴻海、Google等等相關廠商都已經進駐，新店又不跳電，又不缺電，來新店是多好的一件事。所以也要在這裡拜託部長，你也思考一下，多多鼓勵AI這一些未來引領世界風騷的這些，也是臺灣人，讓他們願意回來臺灣，居住在臺灣，根留臺灣。但是我這邊要講，因為時間的關係，主席已經站起來，就是請部長思考一下，怎麼樣讓這些好的人才願意住在臺灣？稅負的問題很重要，還有居留的問題，希望你們也研究一下，改天我們再來討論。謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。好，謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢，待會我們在伍麗華委員質詢之後，休息10分鐘。","緊接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅\n法部分條文修正草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1136501_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.09409375,"end":2.9672187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":3.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.79784375,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.67096875,"end":9.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.750968750000002,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.442843750000002,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.04596875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.665968750000001,"end":15.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.34909375,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.656593750000003,"end":22.508468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.609718750000003,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.80784375,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.782218750000002,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.33034375,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.32596875,"end":32.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.70096875,"end":43.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.23909375,"end":46.268468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.43721875,"end":48.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.221593750000004,"end":56.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.34284375,"end":60.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.236593750000004,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.025343750000005,"end":63.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.99971875,"end":72.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.59346875,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.10971875,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.13471875,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.43346875,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.02346875,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.84596875000001,"end":119.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.22346875000001,"end":140.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.86971875,"end":140.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.62471875,"end":154.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.74096875,"end":177.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.52284375000002,"end":173.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.81346875,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.94909375,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.72409375,"end":209.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.34409375,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.35596875000002,"end":216.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.94159375,"end":227.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.99971875000003,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.63596875000002,"end":233.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.09971875000002,"end":240.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.40284375000002,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.31346875000003,"end":249.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.44846875000002,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.29159375,"end":251.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.07596875000002,"end":253.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.13471875000002,"end":254.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.77596875,"end":256.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.51409375000003,"end":263.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.51721875000004,"end":264.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.83346875,"end":265.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.96409375,"end":266.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.11596875000004,"end":269.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.04784375,"end":278.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.54846875000004,"end":291.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.46221875000003,"end":296.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.79471875,"end":301.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.65471875000003,"end":306.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.41346875,"end":307.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.93221875,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.36221875,"end":314.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.23909375,"end":316.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.58909375,"end":318.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.17096875000004,"end":320.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.95971875000004,"end":322.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.00159375000004,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.99721875,"end":324.62159375000005},{"speaker":"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謝謝陳署長委員長問眾矚目大家都在期待新任的陳署長可以為財化法來多多規劃來運籌維握因為你第一線工作的你應該要做好最好的準備讓"},{"start":29.5,"end":54.743,"text":"財政部長他可以瞭解情況因為如同你我都知我們的部長過去的經驗是在國產的部分比較賢俗稅的部分財政的部分你就應該要好好來闢話一下請問現在20個版本裡面你比較屬意哪一個版本那已經開始從"},{"start":58.883,"end":82.035,"text":"這個運籌帷幄有開始在規劃國庫署心理的版本了嗎?各位委員報告現在的20個版本都有各自他們想要達成的目標比如說有的希望那個垂直分配的金額要放大那有的是則希望說在那個水平分配的時候可以用人口的比例來處理"},{"start":83.716,"end":101.468,"text":"但是不管哪一個方案其實都會存在一些問題尤其是水平分配的部分一定是要經過各個利害關係人員就是各個地方政府他們要有一個共識共識 你開始跟22線是有接觸的嗎?"},{"start":102.729,"end":120.758,"text":"感謝昭偉這邊喔上次在立法院已經辦過了一次公聽會需不需要再來一次昭偉上次在做那個條文討論的時候昭偉也有再提示說您還會再辦好沒問題可是到現在沒有人說希望我辦"},{"start":121.798,"end":132.264,"text":"我問了好多委員,如果召委可以,郭召委也可以辦啊。這是我們集思廣益嘛,大家多多來聽。不過你剛剛講的22縣市看似複雜,其實是很簡單的啦。這22個裡面,就垂直分配來說,有問題的是哪幾個?"},{"start":143.163,"end":166.124,"text":"如果以地方政府來說的話因為他們都只考量到地方自己的施政目標而已所以當然會希望中央的財源下放的金額越大越好但是我想整個政府的整體資源的分配絕對不是只用地方角度的觀點中央政府在一些經濟發展的政策或者是"},{"start":166.784,"end":169.365,"text":"對,錯綜複雜,最後一定會有個答案出來,就好像25年前通過的財化法一樣"},{"start":184.365,"end":198.46,"text":"這過就過了吧大家也許不滿意但是還是可以普遍可以接受就垂直分配的部分有沒有哪一個縣市覺得應該要做什麼修改讓它優於去年跟前年的"},{"start":200.637,"end":220.389,"text":"我想大家那個目前財政部目前中央這邊依據財政收支化分法的那個比率撥出去的金額其實對各地方政府來說目前是夠用的所以顯示在他們的財政剩餘或者是舉債的比例的降低"},{"start":221.309,"end":242.771,"text":"不過財政剩餘的提高或舉債比例的降低都是往好的趨勢在發展你上一次跟22縣市的首長見面是什麼時候?或是相關人員?就是上一次委員您召委召開的公民會我還不知道立法院那麼好用"},{"start":244.503,"end":263.717,"text":"我們自己在地方財政聯繫會報也都有跟他們討論你要趁這個暑假的期間多多召開召開一些會議或者三天兩夜也無所謂你再把召開的時間、地點跟我們講一下我再過去送"},{"start":264.895,"end":277.27,"text":"珍珠奶茶送雞排過去給你們加油打氣跟鼓勵然後順便聽聽看22縣市究竟垂直分配的部分有哪一個縣市是有問題的"},{"start":279.625,"end":306.944,"text":"其實你就現在的這個這個大概的邏輯裡面你每個只要增加百分之三十啊三十啊跟過去比起來根本就沒有人有意見啊如果你增加百分之三十跟去年比有意見的你把名單交給我我再一一來槌尋問他們問題是出在哪裡當然錢不可以亂花啊你造成很多的蚊子管造成很多的浪費"},{"start":308.127,"end":330.584,"text":"這不是全民所樂見的但是你要抓到一個大概百分之七七八八大概八成九成大家的接受程度慢慢再收斂一定就會有答案出來你能不能為這個25年沒有修法的財政收支劃分法你願意來盡一點力量"},{"start":332.463,"end":357.179,"text":"跟委員報告我們國庫署目前在做的事情就是朝這個方向在...好啦我希望說你的專業你們的辛苦跟研究就是趕快推出因為這個不是什麼政治性的對立的議題而是全民嗷嗷逮捕的一個重要法案過了以後"},{"start":357.919,"end":379.344,"text":"可以改大很多的城鄉差距有很多的地方真的是很需要的那你當然說什麼其實在這裡可能你一時答不出來沒有關係你就22縣市抽絲剝繭那我想你如果三天兩夜的聯席會你願意一個一個慢慢談"},{"start":380.744,"end":407.612,"text":"我們相信一定就會有答案出來與其不做倒不如左手開始動起來做9月22日開議之前你如果版本沒出來那黃沪珊珊委員怎麼辦還好其他委員都在等你如果真的都不動的話那最後被迫無奈沒辦法"},{"start":409.442,"end":436.062,"text":"國民黨的版本要通過我不曉得是最好當然是比去年的好但是有沒有更好的我們也期盼有更好的大家一起來討論我們這個海納百川我們心胸是開闊的只要是好的是對的大家一起共同來支持好不好是 謝謝委員我們會積極努力辦希望你歷史留名叫做陳柏臣"},{"start":438.068,"end":460.517,"text":"講究誠信,萬事一定成。好不好?謝謝蘇昂。謝謝。那請那個部長,莊部長。要請莊部長。莊部長好。委員好。親安陳家。親安親安。希望陳家一路都平安。"},{"start":461.687,"end":474.723,"text":"我覺得你們這個內容剛開始在做的確獲得很多年輕人的熱烈的迴響那請問這一波說房地產又飆漲"},{"start":480.128,"end":494.188,"text":"這個問題到底在是什麼地方出了問題我相信不是財政部你覺得勒?跟委員報告房屋價格的波動影響的因素有很多比如說市場的利率還有股市熱絡資金充沛"},{"start":494.788,"end":521.746,"text":"還有地區產業的發展還有經濟的基本面好的話還有重大公共建設陸續到位尤其是交通建設那會還有另外對於房市的預期心理甚至有對於通膨他認為要保值所以買房子所以影響房屋價格的因素蠻多的那新清安貸款事實上是協助年輕人他沒有自由的住家房屋的話讓他可以去買一間房子那政府給你協助"},{"start":522.145,"end":523.526,"text":"所以現在外界在講說房屋飆漲其實不是財政部的錯這句話對不對"},{"start":547.502,"end":566.689,"text":"我講房屋漲價因素很多如剛剛所說那但是對於有一些不當的一些話術或是投機行為等等比如說像網路揪團去買這個事實上是要抑制的我想這政府各部門也都注意到了那財政部也會去做相關的一些處理所以這樣一路走來有沒有人錯?"},{"start":569.144,"end":584.05,"text":"我覺得應該是說你運用新清安貸款去做不是做自助用去做投機甚至轉租而不是我們要做協助的對象那這樣的話是不應該的有人犯錯可是最主要機關單位都沒有錯"},{"start":585.953,"end":588.135,"text":"所以出發點是對的出發點是良善的那所以其實我也是覺得啦我也認同啦"},{"start":608.391,"end":635.98,"text":"至於房價會漲因素實在太多太多了比如說有位黃仁勳先生你認不認識在電視上常常看到他是他如果回來台灣那當然是帶動台灣的成長啊比如本席也公開請經濟部來邀約拜託這個輝達的公司總部可以設立在新店"},{"start":637.486,"end":659.38,"text":"因為新電有保高暖體智慧園區有第二期第三期現在還在推第一期的部分Tesla、鴻海、Google等等相關都已經進駐了所以新電又不跳電又不缺電所以來新電是多好的一件事所以要在這裡也拜託部長你也思考一下"},{"start":660.04,"end":679.335,"text":"多多鼓勵AI這些未來靈隱世界風騷的這些也是台灣人讓他們願意回來台灣居住在台灣跟留台灣但是我這邊要講因為時間關係主心正起來就是請部長思考一下怎麼樣讓"},{"start":681.256,"end":699.09,"text":"這些好的人才願意住在臺灣稅賦的問題很重要還有居留的問題希望你們也研究一下改天我們再來討論好 謝謝謝謝委員指導 謝謝羅明才委員的質詢待會我們在武力華委員質詢之後休息10分鐘緊接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":710.164,"end":710.505,"text":"謝謝主席,我請莊部長"}]}},{"id":"154260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1091038f7d0903083a22d6087941f42bc3176ac657cb8ac9cd4773dc9bfd7c5f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:50:26 - 11:01:00","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:50:26+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T11:01:00+08:00","duration":634,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時50分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：好，部長，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長早安，首先，本席先來請教剛才您接受訪問時的回答，台電表示將取消對教育系統的電價優惠，希望由主管機關來接手，那部長您這邊是回答會編列預算來協助學校，所以想請教部長有沒有預估這個需要多少的經費，我們有這樣的預算來因應嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，因為確實根據電業法的規範，台電現在提供用電量給這些學校機關，基本上，應該是要低於全國平均的電價，但是因為要考慮發電的成本，根據電業法的規範，不得低於成本，所以教育部考量的就是全國基本平均電價和成本的差距，那麼行政院事實上也有開過協調會，各主管機關必須要在年度……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以你們都已經有充分的討論過了？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前在跟主計總處協調。"],["陳委員秀寳：教育部這邊有沒有初估這樣子大概要多少的預算來支應？"],["鄭部長英耀：以目前我們的看法，應該是19.97億，所以大概是20億。"],["陳委員秀寳：要將近20億？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，將近20億。"],["陳委員秀寳：那我們預算的編列部分這樣子……"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我們希望跟主計總處尋求在總體的政府預算裡面看怎麼樣來協助，在114年度的預算裡面也能夠再適度的編列。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，部長加油，你們一定要努力去爭取。","接下來本席想請教部長，本席一直很關心，也一直在提醒教育部，就是目前學生不論是被詐騙或是不慎參加詐騙集團詐騙別人，這個情況非常的嚴重，你們教育部除了要加強宣傳之外，其實還有很多地方、很多事情要多努力，尤其現在是暑假的期間，很多學生會規劃短期的打工，這個部分更需要注意。像本席在這段期間如果有參加社區治安會議，看到一些來參加社區治安會議的長輩，我都會提醒他們，你家有孫子、你家有小孩現在放暑假或是畢業了要找工作，一定要幫他注意，如果跟你說那個工作很「輕可」、錢又很多、很輕鬆，那都一定有問題，家裡的長輩一定替我們的小孩注意他到底是找到什麼樣的工作，不要誤入這種詐騙集團，不管是被騙還是去騙人家，都會是被犧牲的。根據你們教育部自己的校安通報統計數字，其實被詐騙的件數是一年一年增加，對於這個部分，教育部自己有沒有去想過要研議怎麼樣的方式來改善？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員說明，主要是我們跟警政署這邊有很緊密的聯繫，針對在不同的教育階段孩子容易受騙的樣態，那我們針對這個特別的樣態從案例當中去製作懶人包，透過懶人包提供給各大學去做教育宣導。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是從我們的速度看起來，好像就是在已經有孩子被詐騙了之後，我們才去想說要怎麼樣去教你們防詐，甚至認識詐騙，所以真的很明顯的是做得還不夠喔！像剛剛有委員關心有學生被通知二一的問題還是以研討會這樣的名義，其實比較大宗的是虛擬遊戲、網拍，學生被騙的事情層出不窮，所以對這個部分我也希望我們要儘快加緊腳步，我們該提醒學生的，該給他們的知能，我們必須要趕快有這樣子的規劃。","好，接下來是針對今天我們大家都很關心的專輔這個議題，我想請教部長，針對專輔人力的部分，關於國小專輔人力的規劃，你們有規劃要從120年提前到116年來處理，就這個部分我想要請問部長是不是可以說明你們在116學年度相較於112學年度將增加多少位專輔教師？"],["鄭部長英耀：以目前來看，在學輔法沒有通過修法以前，我們光以24班小學來講，就是要增加2,088人。"],["陳委員秀寳：2,088位。"],["鄭部長英耀：就是因為考慮到師資從培養到真正進入現場裡面的可能，所以當時的規劃是到120年才能夠逐步把這2,088人補齊，我們現在對於很多委員所關心的部分，不管是第四條、第十條、第十一條，我們其實都還要考慮，所以我們也不敢躁進，這不僅是經費上的一些問題，我們也希望能夠確保委員所關心的輔導品質，包括怎麼樣發揮他的專業、能夠真正接觸學生、能夠維護學生的權益。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，您剛剛提到需要增加這些教師的員額，那所需要的人事經費大概是多少？中央如何配置人事的經費？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在外加12億。"],["陳委員秀寳：外加12億，對專輔教師補增的這個規劃我們是按照怎麼樣的期程？是每學年增加還是每學期增加？我們的期程是如何規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們基本上是朝每學年來增加專輔人力，但是如果在學校有特殊情形，我們當然有適度的用一些專業人才，我們也不排斥。"],["陳委員秀寳：還是會彈性調整？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：那這個部分如果我們是採跟地方合聘、共聘的方式，我們會運作多久？我們跟地方政府如何來配合？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，就這個細節我來補充一下，共聘的方式是原來規劃的，後來我們會做一點微調，更能夠因應每個學校的需求，剛才部長講的2,088人是配到每個學校，只是提前而已。那原來在早期的那個方案是想讓有些小校能夠早一點配到，所以那種提前是用合聘的方式讓他們更早享受到專輔人員這種專業輔導的作為，那個是為了要解決他們被排到太後面的問題，想用合聘的方式早一點解決。但是現在對於輔導需求，可能我們是儘量讓校校都有，所以現在的提前是希望連小校也能夠在採單獨制的時候提前。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：還有，除了學生輔導的相關議題之外，教育部這邊從109年到110年的校安通報相關統計，教職員工自殺、自傷的事件從109年的45件到110年的70件，件數其實是增加的，所以我們很明顯的看到不只是學生相關的心理壓力增加，面對整個社會情勢的改變，其實對教職員的心理影響也是很劇烈，所以也希望教育部可以著重教職員的心理狀態，不僅是要接住學生，我們也要助老師們一臂之力。目前教育部增加了教師心輔的經費，各縣市政府也有一個心理諮商中心在合作，提供教職員免費的心理諮商，也有團體諮商這樣的方式，但是對於教職員自殺、自傷的件數逐漸遞增的狀況，教育部要如何落實？你們有規劃怎麼樣的方式？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想對於教師的心理健康，我們辦理許多的教師研習增能、教師情緒的管理，包括怎麼樣去協助他們有抗壓的力量，對於這個部分我們確實是有編一些經費來協助。"],["陳委員秀寳：我為什麼提到教師呢？因為有快樂的教師，才會有快樂的學生。"],["鄭部長英耀：我完全同意委員的論點，老師有更好的心情，減少對職業的倦怠，我相信對教育品質、對學生都是比較好的。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，所以我們在關心學生輔導機制的同時，對教職員工也希望要同樣關心。主席，請再給我半分鐘就好了，我要請體育署署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：署長，因為巴黎奧運在即，其實先前我有提醒過教育部，那教育部也有對恐攻的部分做了類似的模擬，但是最近因為天氣的狀態，大家非常的關心，國外非營利組織氣候中心有警告，7月、8月巴黎的天氣是非常、非常地酷熱，這樣酷熱的天氣可能讓選手處於危險中，有中暑，甚至熱衰竭這樣的危險，所以對於我們國手的安全及健康，體育署跟相關的人員有沒有怎樣的規劃因應？因為這個極端酷熱的氣候可能會造成選手身體的不適，也可能影響他們運動的表現，我們針對這個部分有怎樣的規劃？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我想我們國訓的營養師會來協助做衛教，當然高雄的酷熱也不亞於法國巴黎，不過至少在晚上住宿的部分，我們倒是租用了移動式的空調，確保我們的選手至少在晚上休息期間，房間內的氣溫是OK的。"],["陳委員秀寳：我知道體育署有去注意到這個部分，就是讓他們在晚上休息的時候有比較舒適的溫度，但是在平常他們訓練或是比賽當中還是要注意選手的健康狀態。"],["鄭署長世忠：當然，沒有錯。"],["陳委員秀寳：以上，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：好，接下來我們請林宜瑾委員，林宜瑾委員質詢完之後，我們休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 18 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員許智傑等25\n人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生\n輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正\n草案」案；九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審查\n委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具\n「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分\n條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員郭昱晴等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員郭\n國文等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員郭國文等 19 人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條\n文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員萬\n美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條\n及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正\n草案」案；二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十\n五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十六、審查委員林\n月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案(僅進行詢答)","agenda_id":"1136601_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.30471875,"end":3.9797187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.199093749999999,"end":4.840343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.48159375,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.69659375,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.89409375,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.94034375,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.59909375,"end":45.829718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.947843750000004,"end":64.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.06721875000001,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.48846875000001,"end":86.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.82346875,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.35471875,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":92.69159375000001,"end":92.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":92.84346875,"end":92.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":93.28221875000001,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.72471875000001,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":105.21284375,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.34784375000001,"end":105.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.15784375000001,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.73159375,"end":109.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.66784375,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.91909375,"end":191.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.89909375000002,"end":211.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":211.08659375000002,"end":241.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.45721875,"end":272.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.69659375000003,"end":286.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.85534375000003,"end":288.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.10409375,"end":303.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.66284375000004,"end":329.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":328.77284375000005,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":337.39596875,"end":338.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.79659375,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.02846875,"end":341.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.80846875000003,"end":344.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":345.63096875,"end":346.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.76159375000003,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":347.74034375,"end":355.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":358.87784375,"end":360.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.00846875,"end":366.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":362.38784375,"end":363.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.72471875,"end":374.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":374.57159375000003,"end":382.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.63909375000003,"end":375.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.75284375,"end":376.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.20284375,"end":386.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":386.90721875,"end":388.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.43409375000005,"end":407.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.64659375,"end":436.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.94159375000004,"end":438.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":438.17346875000004,"end":438.35909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.35909375000006,"end":438.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":438.89909375,"end":493.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":493.33784375000005,"end":495.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.09659375,"end":516.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":510.12846875,"end":510.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":516.38909375,"end":521.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.7934687500001,"end":535.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":533.93909375,"end":545.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":547.7765937500001,"end":548.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.6203437500001,"end":549.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":549.39659375,"end":550.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.2903437500001,"end":554.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":554.4422187499999,"end":597.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.92909375,"end":619.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":618.685343750000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ﻷ﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":105.27,"end":106.391,"text":"二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":126.229,"end":143.287,"text":"接下來呢本期這邊想請教部長本期一直很關心也一直在提醒教育部就是說目前我們學生不論是被詐騙或是不慎參加詐團詐騙別人這個情況非常的嚴重教育部這邊除了你們要加強宣傳之外其實還有很多地方很多事情要多努力"},{"start":143.687,"end":155.152,"text":"况且尤其現在是暑假期間﹐很多學生會規劃短期的打工﹐這個部分更需要注意﹐像本席在這段期間﹐如果有參加社區治安會議﹐有一些來參加社區治安會議的長輩﹐我都會提醒他們﹐你們家有孫子﹑你們家有孩子﹐現在熱鬧﹐或是悲劇﹑要坐在路上﹐一定要幫他們注意﹐如果那些在路上很辛苦﹑錢又很多﹑很輕鬆﹐那些都一定有問題﹐"},{"start":167.517,"end":191.613,"text":" ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ ﻷ"},{"start":196.022,"end":211.064,"text":"主任,我們跟警政署這邊也有很緊密的聯繫,針對不同的教育階段,孩子容易受騙的樣態。那我們針對這個特別的樣態,從案例當中去製作懶人包,透過懶人包提供給各大學去做教育宣導。"},{"start":211.425,"end":227.596,"text":"但是看起來好像我們的速度我們好像就是說已經有孩子被詐騙的狀態了之後我們才能去想說我怎麼樣去教你們去防詐甚至認識詐騙所以真的很明顯的是做到還不夠像剛剛有委員關心說有學生被通知二一還是研討會這樣的名義那其實像比較大宗的是虛擬遊戲網拍這樣子的還是學生被騙的這樣子的是層出不窮"},{"start":237.003,"end":241.564,"text":"所以這個部分我也希望說我們盡快加緊腳步我們該來提醒學生來該給他們的這些知能我們必須要趕快有這樣子的規劃那接下來是針對今天我們大家都很關心的這個專府的議題我想請教部長針對專府人力的部分國小專府人力規劃你們有規劃說要從120年提前到116年這邊來處理那這個部分我要想要請部長你是不是可以說明"},{"start":265.93,"end":271.52,"text":"一百一十六學年度相較於一百一十二學年度你們將多增加多少位的專輔教師?"},{"start":277.035,"end":289.004,"text":"以我目前來看在協務法沒通過我們光以24班小學來講就是要增加2088人所以這才是為什麼當時考慮到師資的培養到真正現場裡面的一個可能所以當時的規劃是120年才能夠逐步把這2088人補齊"},{"start":304.315,"end":311.279,"text":"所以我們現在很多的這些委員所關心的不管第4條、第10條、第11條我們其實都還要考慮到所以我們也不敢躁進他不僅是經會上的一些問題我們也希望能夠確保這個委員所關心的這個輔導的一個品質怎麼樣發揮他的專業能夠真正接觸學生能夠支持維護學生的一個權利"},{"start":329.249,"end":355.493,"text":"市長您剛提到說需要增加的這些教師的員額那所需要的人事經費大概多少?中央如何配置?人事的經費我們現在外加12億外加12億外加12億那政府教師的這個規補增的這個規劃我們是要怎樣的期存?是每學年增加還是每學期增加?"},{"start":360.023,"end":382.32,"text":"我們基本上是朝美學年來增加專輔人力但如果在學校的特殊我們當然有適度的一些專業人才我們也不排斥還是會彈性調整喔那這個部分呢如果說我們是跟地方合併跟共併的這個方式我們會運作多久我們跟地方政府如何來配合"},{"start":390.538,"end":407.073,"text":"兩位委員報告,這個細節我來補充一下。共聘的方式是原來規劃的,後來我們會做一點微調,讓每個學校更能夠因應需求。所以剛剛部長講的2088,那是配到學校,每個學校,只是提前而已。"},{"start":407.734,"end":419.861,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員"},{"start":437.452,"end":440.916,"text":"除了說學生輔導相關議題之外教育部這邊109年到110年下案通報相關統計教職員工自殺、智商事件件數從109年的45件到110年的70件其實是增加的"},{"start":457.034,"end":484.375,"text":"所以很明顯的我們看到說不只學生相關的心理壓力增加面對整個社會情勢改變的其實對教職員的這個心理影響也是很劇烈所以這邊也希望說教育部你們可以著重教職員的心理狀態不僅只是要我們對學生我們要接觸學生我們也要助老師們一臂之力那目前我們教育部增加的教師心腹的經費呢各縣市政府也有一個心理諮商中心在合作那提供教職員免費的心理諮商也有團體諮商這樣的方式"},{"start":486.417,"end":494.703,"text":"但是對於教職員自殺自傷的建樹逐漸地震的狀況,教育部你們這邊如何落實?你們有怎樣的方式來規劃?"},{"start":498.117,"end":523.035,"text":"我想教師的一個心理健康我們本來大概許多的教師研習真人教師的這個情緒的管理包括怎麼樣去協助他們這個抗拒這個抗壓的一個力量因為這個部分我們確實是有編一些經會來協助為什麼提到教師呢?因為有快樂的教師才會有快樂的學生我完全同意委員的一個論點"},{"start":524.716,"end":545.043,"text":"老師要他能夠有更更好的一個心情而減少這個職業的間帶我相信那對教育品質對學生的所以我們在關心學生的這個輔導的這個機制的同時對教職員工也希望說我們同樣有關心主席請你再給我半分鐘就好了好那我這樣我請署長體育署長體育署體育署長是是您"},{"start":554.629,"end":572.841,"text":"主持人請教,因為巴黎奧運在即,那其實教育部先前我有提醒那教育部也有對恐攻的部分做了類似的模擬,但是最近因為天氣的這個狀態大家非常的關心,國外非營利氣候中心有警告,7月8月巴黎的天氣是非常非常的酷熱,"},{"start":573.541,"end":574.561,"text":"兩、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":598.147,"end":618.51,"text":"報告委員,這部分我想我們國訓的營養師會來協助做衛教,當然高雄的酷熱也不亞於法國巴黎,不過至少在晚上的住宿的部分我們倒是有租用了這個移動式的空調,確保我們的選手至少在晚上的休息的期間是房間內的氣溫受控。"},{"start":619.471,"end":620.051,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"}]}},{"id":"154259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1974dbdc153efa2a568d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9c20622193db64c7fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:52:05 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謝謝主席內政部長 消防署署長有請好 內政部長 消防署署長"},{"start":16.605,"end":40.13,"text":"好,這個部長署長齁,這個你不要怪說在野黨沒有簽署所謂的不附一同一書齁,讓這個法條今天還是只能停在答詢的部分。實在是因為大家對於如何保障不管是消防基層弟兄,或者是說針對消防法的內容齁,其實我們認為有若干可以在更精進之處嘛,所以我們當然要提出版本。這我覺得有時候互相互相啦,像當初這個海保法對不對,我們就等政院提出版本。"},{"start":41.11,"end":42.011,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":55.148,"end":68.735,"text":"第一個我相信這次修法核心的目的是完善消防人員的這個保障,職業安全的保障,以及提升救災效率以及等等。那我就要先講第一個問題,這個有關於倉儲的問題。工廠管理輔導法21條1項規定工廠製造加工或使用危險物品達管制量者應該要申報。"},{"start":75.538,"end":100.563,"text":"那這次的修法行政院院版的消防法的21條之一剛好都是21條講說工廠化學物品的倉庫及出生倉儲管理人平時應備置化學物品總量、數量、位置平面圖以及搶救資訊於火災發生時應立即提供消防指揮人員第二火災發生時要指派專人協助救災從這兩個法條其實可以看出差別這個純有化學品的工廠"},{"start":101.403,"end":114.129,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":129.577,"end":155.482,"text":"如果平常只是配置,就是你講的就是準備好相關的配置圖,然後發生災難的時候才提供,來得及嗎?請回答。是,感謝委員。我們在這次修法也把資訊犬的部分拉進來,就是專業的人他要現場提供就在院資訊的一個場域。我現在跟你講嘛,實務上來講,你準備好,萬一都放在這個場區裡咧?進不去拿不到怎麼辦?"},{"start":158.513,"end":171.672,"text":"深報跟被制的最大差異就是深報提早交到政府機關的手上出事的時候你第一時間你政府就直接拿是不是你就掌握資訊可是你如果只是準備然後發聲的時候提供萬一他拿不出來怎麼辦"},{"start":172.776,"end":197.035,"text":"感謝委員,這個部分院裡面有特別交代,就針對倉儲的部分怎麼來處理,這個已經有一個案子在執行當中。那另外跟委員報告就是說,今年我們最近這幾天會把倉儲自動消血設備的...你不要跟我扯別的,你就談條文就好。就是你這個倉儲有化學品的,你只要備次你不用申報,會不會造成漏洞?有沒有可能造成漏洞?"},{"start":198.485,"end":201.428,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":215.049,"end":218.19,"text":"第二、存放一般用品的倉庫,不是說只有化學品才要管理吧?"},{"start":235.495,"end":238.018,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":254.075,"end":260.478,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":276.164,"end":289.619,"text":"那這些易燃物品的時候燃燒起來的代價這社會要承擔的代價不見得亞於這個化學品的倉庫化學品倉庫的危險在於救災危險我完全同意要重研納管我也完全同意所以我剛剛才講應該要申報對不對但是這物流倉儲的危險在於燃燒的面積還有燃燒的時間跟程度"},{"start":298.087,"end":324.457,"text":"這個不只是只有消防的問題,它也有公害的問題啊。這本席會這麼關心這個題目,就是每幅倉儲大火啊。那一把火可以燒三個禮拜啊。對不對,那是多大的浩劫,對不對。那請問部長,請問署長喔。這個化學品的倉庫跟一般物品的倉庫,哪一個比較危險?應該都很危險吧。對不對。既然都危險,那一般的倉儲要不要納管?要不要列管?在消防法的修正裡面。你是不是要有一些專門的條文,把它也納入列管的範圍?好,跟我們報告齁。"},{"start":326.994,"end":329.655,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":345.64,"end":350.523,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":371.937,"end":376.458,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":399.286,"end":422.255,"text":"消防機關要負擔費用,這支持基層弟兄百分之百同意。但是,消防法28條三項將參加第一項的義勇消防組織人員,安全衛生防護四項準用、得準用。25條之二第二項及25條第四的規定,當然就是安全衛生管理系統。不過我覺得安全衛生管理系統,剛剛應該有蠻多委員有談到,大概不是重點嘛。"},{"start":422.615,"end":449.223,"text":"我們既然要幫義消爭取權力我當然希望他跟一般的消防基層弟兄一樣也有一部分健康檢查補助的這樣子一個機制那你都可以准用25條之2或25條之4你為什麼不能准用25條之6呢你如果讓他准用是不是基層的義消當然你講有經費分配有些壓力這本身都了解的但我們總要往前進吧義消在協助救災付出的這個程度其實有些時候不亞於真正的基層人員嘛"},{"start":450.023,"end":452.525,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":475.567,"end":482.597,"text":"雖然今天沒有辦法進到主條,但是我不管是第一會期尾巴或第二會期開始,我們趕快讓這個法完善的情況下來通過,好嗎?好,請繼續努力,謝謝。好,謝謝,謝謝牛先天。"}]}},{"id":"154257","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd122f13400f81ee6cb68d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9c69a9bda2e6f581175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:34:11 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署長委員好 我是勞動部職安署有關職安法的部分確實在102年的時候修法的過程當中我們試著要討論要把公務員納入我們職安法可是在102年的時候已經定調就是我們公務員辦法的安全部分你說102年定調嗎是我們那個職安法修法的時候那時候我們是希望102年定調是2013年嗎是是那個時候還是馬政府時期嗎現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎出了這麼多事情"},{"start":141.108,"end":168.57,"text":"這麼多寶貴的生命寶貴的家庭都破碎了所以我們現在是民進黨政府消歸潮水嗎?2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎?對於消防弟兄希望全面納入治安法來請教署長消防署的署長您是所有消防弟兄的大家長啊所以該幫他們講話的就是你啊贊不贊成?"},{"start":169.4,"end":170.987,"text":"好,各位委員報告,是不是給我一點時間說明?"},{"start":174.804,"end":201.322,"text":"消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高。這我也應該可以來支持這個論點。那消防的職業安全也比一般公務員還高。所以整個盤點以後事實上我們兩個研究案在做處理。一個就是針對於消防到底用什麼法律案來確保我們的安全。所以在去年過去三年已經把美國的消防人員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到台灣。"},{"start":202.703,"end":212.226,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":232.073,"end":247.762,"text":"我先跟署長確認一件事你要說明我也給你時間說明了剛你說我們消防弟兄的職業安全他的標準應該高於一般的職業安全嘛問題是你們目前消防法專章規範的密度有比治安法規範的密度高嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":248.692,"end":277.181,"text":"各位委員報告,治安法裡面所列的這些項目,相對應我們都列上去。有嗎?是在現在的草案上嗎?還是你未來要規定的質疑?相對應的方向,大章節我們都列進去。是在法案上嗎?還是未來你要去另外定質疑?是現在在草案上還是未來要定質疑?當然,法案絕對不可能全部涵括進去。所以你要另外定質疑是嗎?後面很多措施。來啊,我就直接給你看。"},{"start":278.376,"end":302.827,"text":"你說消防安全應該要比一般的勞工標準更高然後你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面人家在職安法為什麼要用職安法因為職安法裡面針對僱主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫但你們現在所推出來的草案來我先問署長一件事有吹哨子的保護機制嗎已經列進去了第幾條"},{"start":308.604,"end":314.545,"text":"十五條裡面已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。來來來,你把院版十五條唸給大家聽。好,感謝委員。公共危險物品這些大管這兩時,應該製造的場所進行處理。那所以呢?還沒結束。後面應該是在後面的條裡面,這些場所,"},{"start":341.945,"end":368.002,"text":"我現在是說基層申訴違反職啊你說有吹哨的保護機制在第幾條15條講的是什麼15條講的是有關於15條公共危險這個是場所的問題耶跟委員報告公務員保障法這邊這個公務人員的吹哨應該是回到公務人員的安慰辦法27條28條所以嘛是我剛說月版的消防法沒有嘛是"},{"start":368.642,"end":377.385,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":394.632,"end":420.743,"text":"公務人員安全衛生辦法30條我不是寫在上面給你看嗎?違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺他接下來的罰則是什麼?有嗎?你說在院版的消防法有,我就跟你講沒有嘛!還在這邊公開胡扯!所以我問你消防法第幾條你講不出來嘛!你胡亂引15條!你以為大家不會看法條喔?"},{"start":422.202,"end":447.613,"text":"十五條是你講的嗎那你說要回到安慰辦法就現在規範保障不足嘛所以我請教你嘛違反崔少澤保障他的法則在哪裡有寫嗎你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有崔少澤保護的條款有耶法律要件法律效果都有耶你們的消防法根本沒有啊"},{"start":448.615,"end":474.395,"text":"公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則你剛剛好意思在這邊講你們現在提供的保障比安慰辦法還要高來再往下沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網要對誰究責依照你們的版本這個是職業安全衛生法有的嘛沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網對誰究責"},{"start":480.547,"end":484.092,"text":"欸署長你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊?"},{"start":485.161,"end":507.647,"text":"兩部分公務人員對於他的員工出問題涉及到堵職這方面這個是有回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡我條文都幫你整理出來了委員關心的消防人員出問題的一個保障就回過到這個機制好 針對委員所提出的 署長感謝 社會公務員報告室報告室報告感謝"},{"start":513.388,"end":535.202,"text":"我這樣說好了啦你上面寫的要對誰究責非常的荒謬啊你要處罰誰中央主管機關上級機關通知限期改善沒有改善要處3萬元以上30萬元以下罰款你要罰的是誰各級消防機關喔中央地方去罰消防局喔阿這樣是有什麼嚇阻的效果"},{"start":536.462,"end":564.218,"text":"你作為消防署的署長我等你的法案等這麼久你可以不守到這種程度還在上面胡扯讓人嘆為觀止跟委員報告是不是給我一點時間我們會後再跟委員詳細報告目前是直接用法律面的執行怎麼用輔導的方式來執行讓消防能夠走得更穩更健全如果不需要法律只要輔導現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了啦"},{"start":565.512,"end":566.154,"text":"兩者相互搭配"}]}},{"id":"154256","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd10e72481699ebfc1b68d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9c4b2103ee32d36c9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:25:18 - 10:33:59","影片長度":"00:08:41","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:25:18+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:33:59+08:00","duration":521,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-25"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.78596875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.79846875,"end":6.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.152218750000001,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.24471875,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.48409375,"end":109.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.98846875000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.27909375,"end":117.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.49784375,"end":120.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.10909375000001,"end":123.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.84284375000001,"end":131.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.37346875,"end":140.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.58284375,"end":145.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.31596875,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.67784375000002,"end":159.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.21721875,"end":163.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.91284375,"end":175.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.88534375,"end":194.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.56596875000002,"end":218.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.88721875000002,"end":218.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.61284375000002,"end":229.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.34221875,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.78409375,"end":266.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.22096875,"end":279.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.31221875,"end":287.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.87221875,"end":287.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.08721875000003,"end":294.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.51659375,"end":300.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.73534375,"end":301.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.28346875,"end":312.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.00721875,"end":316.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.67346875000004,"end":355.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.95846875,"end":368.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.14221875000004,"end":374.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.33534375000005,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.81534375,"end":393.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.48846875000004,"end":396.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.76221875000005,"end":411.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.78096875,"end":420.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.91471875,"end":424.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.89284375000005,"end":433.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.48221875,"end":452.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.42846875000004,"end":454.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.36471875,"end":457.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.66409375,"end":457.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.83284375000005,"end":457.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.83284375000005,"end":464.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.84971875,"end":457.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.86659375000005,"end":458.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.02159375,"end":475.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.07221875000005,"end":465.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.30846875000003,"end":465.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.81846875,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.27346875,"end":473.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.72034375000004,"end":479.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.56784375,"end":486.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.75221875000005,"end":504.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.43784375,"end":520.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.87596875,"end":507.12471875000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":3.456,"text":"休息五分鐘。好,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。我們請劉世芳、劉部長。好,部長。"},{"start":10.44,"end":31.298,"text":"我想從去年開始就先有恆春公墓執勤人員在過程中不小心被6噸的小型水箱車壓死而殉職。到了民洋國際的部分又有4名消防員不幸殉職。另外在新竹移工宿舍的火警也有消防員不幸罹難。"},{"start":32.719,"end":37.262,"text":"四、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":57.616,"end":74.166,"text":"現在公共危險物品及可燃性高壓氣體製造儲存處理場所設置的標準及安全管理的辦法,規定工廠有公共危險物品及可燃性高壓氣體達管制量的30倍以上要申報。"},{"start":75.046,"end":78.327,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":98.032,"end":117.16,"text":"報告委員,我想您非常關心的部分確實是正確,那目前我們的提供不會是書面。譬如說我們自己在借接環境部或是勞動部或是經濟部的資料的話,其實都是用雲端。在派遣出去的時候,他們就要配備這個部分,包括我們建築物本身的一個構造圖也是要先派遣出去。"},{"start":117.58,"end":145.465,"text":"但是比較重要就是說火災現場的工廠管理人他要告訴我們變動的資料在哪裡也就是說剛剛有委員提到了我可能今天進貨一批放在A廠可是到發生火災在B廠你要先告訴我們請問一下他們多像這個部分啊我因為剛剛我想也是要跟這個部長建議的就是因為現在其實就是網路資訊時代其實可以放到雲端去那我們用加密的方式那請問一下現在業者就已經有做這樣的事情那多久會更新一次"},{"start":147.372,"end":162.925,"text":"市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工廠管理法上半年通過是半年要一次。市長,工"},{"start":175.976,"end":177.418,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":194.617,"end":195.938,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":219.036,"end":235.729,"text":"因為我們會跟經濟部再來進一步商討,那經濟部那邊是有要求工廠葡萄花裡面,它只要有大變動,它也要跟著修正。那操作層面我們再跟經濟部再來討論。對,因為我覺得半年時間真的太長了,我們是不是可以有,那就是事實上他事實上唱團雲團每週做更新的話,對業者來說這也是他應該要盡的一個義務跟責任。"},{"start":242.214,"end":266.297,"text":"另外再請教一下部長有關這次院版修正的第25條之9的規定就是各級政府辦理消防人員的安全衛生防護設備措施跟健康檢查所需要的費用應該優先編列預算請問一下部長這次增訂這個條文的用意是什麼"},{"start":269.244,"end":287.709,"text":"我想我們既然把這個消防法設定一個職業安全專章對於消防人員包括是正職的消防人跟義消本來就是要保障他的身心健康既然要保障他身心健康的話他不管是防護設備或者是他自己本身的體檢所需要的經費當然要優先編列那現在沒有嗎我們現在優先編的意思應優先編列那現在本來我們針對現在的消防員就有編列"},{"start":294.711,"end":312.168,"text":"對,因為我想對於各級政府來說,一定就已經在做這些事情了嘛。包括地方政府,中央政府一定會編列。對,那地方政府應該是他只要裁員沒有困難的,他一定都會優先編列嘛。所以我現在不曉得說這個條文寫上去的意思是說,現在有地方政府沒有這樣做嗎?"},{"start":314.219,"end":327.546,"text":"感謝委員目前裝備器材種類消防就裝備器材種類真的很多那我們整個盤點以後像最近院裡面核定的23個計畫總共270億就是針對這個問題來解決目前狀況那這一次的職安的終審計畫也特別針對消防特定的檢查我們每年也匡列一定的額度"},{"start":338.491,"end":355.547,"text":"讓全國消防人員可以做這方面健康檢查,也就是回應到剛剛委員所關心的這個條文,特別把它凸顯出來以後,提醒地方政府、中央政府,這個預算是需要配合我們滾動以後有哪些經費需要的是來編列的,這個跟委員回報。"},{"start":356.768,"end":380.027,"text":"我剛提到事實上有些地方政府事實上財源並沒有那麼充足,所以這個部分如果遇到這樣的狀況,是不是可以請中央也優先提供補助呢?謝偉提醒,其實我們剛剛署長講得非常清楚,就是如果它是屬於全面性或通案性,譬如說我們救火的消防人員,他可能肺部需要做健康檢查,那這個大概就是我們全面會處理,"},{"start":380.928,"end":384.791,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":396.98,"end":400.302,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":425.037,"end":426.278,"text":"請問一下,這個意思就是說我們中央主管機關內政部消防署要罰我們的消防局嗎?"},{"start":453.553,"end":474.846,"text":"是這樣的意思嗎?其實這個部分就各級消防機關各級消防機關所以他會有他的上級機關比如縣市政府那中央會有中央內政部或者消防署這邊來執行當然目前這個條文我們會先從改善的角度來做處理不是一下子就處罰"},{"start":475.902,"end":486.645,"text":"因為我想這個部分如果說是罰消防局的話那你說好消防局的局長是要用自己的薪水去付罰還還是要用這個消防局的預算支付?"},{"start":488.342,"end":513.608,"text":"這個部分,我們事實上這個條文定點就是要讓縣市能夠面對到前面這些,包括剛剛委員所提到的,可能預算的編列、裝備器來提供,或者是他的訓練、或者是治安這些問題。或者是點出這個問題,希望說針對這個部分,事實上你罰消防局,那他一定也是用消防局的預算來去做這樣的一個罰款支付,不可能是罰個人嘛。"},{"start":514.029,"end":518.061,"text":"雖然點出問題,但是我覺得解決之道更重要。在這邊也謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"}]}},{"id":"154255","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154255","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd11f5d7f5f87fa1cc368d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9c27ce88a31896901e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:17:11 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10:25:07","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:17:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:25:07+08:00","duration":476,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時17分）主席好，各位委員、各位官員，大家早安。有請劉部長還有署長。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：部長、署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長、署長。今天討論的是消防法修法，大家都知道，上次明揚火災之後，消防人員上街抗議，要求要組工會，當時本席也在這邊跟署長、部長請益，第一個是針對消防員組工會的事情；第二個，針對他們資訊落差的問題，就是消防員資訊的即時更新等等。大家今天最重視的就是消防法修法，主要是針對企業沒有誠實申報危險化學物品，或是沒有請專責人員即時到現場安排消防跟檢視。當時我有提出來，修法的過程中是不是這些企業應該停業？當時說現在法條看到還是「得」停業，等一下會針對這些問題跟部長、署長請益。","第一個問題還是今天大家很多人提到的，我們要幫所有消防人員發聲，就是消防員員額不足。我一直覺得內政部跟消防署對人員不足的問題，好像一直以來都沒有很明確的回復。尤其我把新北市拿出來跟大家報告，新北市原本的編制員額是3,500人，預算員額是2,686人，目前的員額只有2,516人，比編制員額少了快要1,000人。部長、署長，新北市四百多萬人，而且我的選區在中和，我常常跟部長、署長報告，中和有40萬人，占了新北市十分之一的人口，土地面積卻只有新北市的百分之一，地狹人稠，有時候救災非常辛苦。昨天我質詢時也拜託院長，我們南勢分隊一年的值勤數量高達9,000次，嚇死人了，所以我昨天才在質詢的時候，請院長一定要督促秀山消防分隊提早設臨時的編制，昨天很感謝院長跟部長都從善如流。員額的部分請署長跟部長簡單講一下，跟國際等相比，有沒有儘量追上其他縣市或國際的標準？"],["劉部長世芳：張委員，等一下我請署長回答，你昨天提到中和秀山分隊，我們已經要求要跟國防部軍備局，就臨時的辦公廠房看能不能延長到五年。"],["張委員智倫：好，非常感謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，消防人力現在各縣市正在擴編，尤其785號解釋函以後，人力的需求更大。目前全國的缺額是1,400位，現在特考有2,200位學生報名，我們要錄取1,000位，如果他的分數可以達到50分以上，我們可能考慮還要增額錄取，這是針對每一年的量。每一年1,000位的量，逐年、兩年，我們預計兩年的量可以達到……"],["張委員智倫：好，署長，我簡單問你，新北市的缺額大概多久可以補齊？有沒有一個想法？"],["蕭署長煥章：新北市的預算員額有出來，如果是1,000位，而且要達到編制員額，可能要給我們三年、四年的時間，因為同時……"],["張委員智倫：三、四年？可不可以再加速一點？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們儘量做，因為同時有一大批進去，也會對新北市造成壓力，因為都是新的。我們考慮……"],["張委員智倫：好，時間的關係……"],["蕭署長煥章：我們再跟新北市討論。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長。我要拜託，因為現在在修消防法，就是要保障消防人員的權益。我想給署長跟部長看一個圖，當員額增加的時候，沒有想到有些老舊廳舍的空間完全不足。今天跟部長報告一下，看到這個圖大家應該都嚇到，所有辛苦的消防人員除了要面對現在天氣非常熱的狀況，到外面救災，回到自己的寢室或者是休息室的時候，發現四個人住在一間只有不到兩坪到三坪的房間。我進去看，這真的是火神的眼淚──消防員的眼淚，大家的身心靈都遇到非常大的衝擊。那個床的長度還……我如果去躺，大概一百七十幾公分、一百八十公分，腳都跑出來。部長跟署長，在增加人力的時候，這個人還睡得下嗎？未來老舊宿舍、老舊廳舍的問題要如何解決？"],["蕭署長煥章：老舊廳舍的問題……"],["張委員智倫：有沒有統整一下？"],["蕭署長煥章：有關內部裝修，我們在去年、今年，有因應150個分隊內部凌亂、不乾淨或是壁癌的問題，目前已經在做了。"],["張委員智倫：好……"],["蕭署長煥章：後續還會繼續執行。老舊廳舍部分，九二一以後如果有一些損毀，目前前瞻計畫有重建、興建、改建計畫正在進行。"],["張委員智倫：你們現在有沒有統整？就新北好了，有多少是3、40年以上？過去在規劃的時候，可能人沒有那麼多，消防員沒有那麼多，現在人越來越多，消防員越來越多，現在有這樣的情況，他們每天休息全部擠得很像沙丁魚。你們有沒有預計經費或是時間，或是政府如果找到場地的話，這個經費要如何編列？是不是可以請部長、署長儘快協助？有一個計畫表還是怎麼樣。"],["蕭署長煥章：如果委員關心秀山分隊……"],["張委員智倫：不是，這個不只秀山分隊，秀山分隊連分隊都沒有出現，這是我們中和其他分隊宿舍老舊的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員，這樣好嗎？您提到宿舍老舊或是時間過久，剛剛署長已經跟您報告，150處……"],["張委員智倫：是不是可以……"],["劉部長世芳：如果這150處未來改善的時候，還是不合所需或者是我們要增加員額，我們來想辦法。但是我跟張委員建議，目前您也非常關心社會住宅，如果警消可以找到適合的地點，我們也希望幫警消蓋社會住宅。如果社會住宅可以有這樣的空間等出現，住都中心或是國土管理署就會來幫忙，一方面也解決年輕消防員未來住家或是租屋的困難，我們兩個可以結合的話會更好。尤其張委員所在的地區人口非常稠密，怎麼樣找到適合的空間，恐怕也要請張委員或是相關的委員幫忙。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長的回答。未來中央、地方一條心，我們立法委員沒辦法增加預算，可是內政部可以協助消防署或警政署，針對一些廳舍老舊，如果有找到一些地方可以來遷移或是可以協助解決住的問題，大家一起來努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張智倫委員的詢答。","下一位請許宇甄委員，再來就到黃國昌、牛煦庭，我們就休息5分鐘，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：(10時25分)謝謝主席，我們請劉世芳劉部長。"],["主席：好，部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好，從去年開始，就先有恆春公墓的執勤人員在過程中不小心被6噸的小型水箱車壓死而殉職，然後到了明揚國際又有4名消防員不幸殉職；另外新竹移工宿舍的火警，也有我們的消防員不幸罹難，當然，晴空匯的部分也造成兩名消防人員的殉職，所以在一年半的時間內就有8位消防人員因為救災而犧牲，所以我想大家都非常的難過，而如何保障消防員的人身安全，我想也是這次修法的一個重點，也是我們當前最重要的一個工作。想請教一下部長，現在的公共危險物品及可燃性高壓氣體製造儲存處理場所設置標準暨安全管理辦法，規定工廠有公共危險物品及可燃性高壓氣體達管制量30倍以上要申報，在儲存化學品的倉庫跟儲存場所發生火災的時候，管理權人要立即提供廠區化學品的種類、數量、位置、平面圖等相關的規定，但是現在是一個網路資訊的時代，這種書面的數據要到現場才提供紙本資料，是不是已經太過落後了？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您非常關心的部分確實是正確，目前我們的提供不會是書面，譬如我們自己在介接環境部或是勞動部、經濟部的資料的話，其實都是用雲端，在派遣出去的時候，他們就要配備這個部分，包括建築物本身的一個構造圖，也是要先派遣出去，但是比較重要的就是，火災現場的工廠管理人，他要告訴我們變動的資料在哪裡，也就是說，剛剛有委員提到了，我可能今天進貨一批放在A廠，可是發生火災在B廠，你要先告訴我們這個部分。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，像這個部分，因為剛剛我也是要跟部長建議的就是，現在是網路資訊的時代，其實可以放到雲端去，我們用加密的方式，請問一下，現在業者就已經有做這樣的事情，多久會更新一次？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，工廠管理法是半年，上半年通過的是半年要一次……"],["許委員宇甄：是，那這樣的時間，就像你剛剛講的，因為半年的時間真的太長了……"],["蕭署長煥章：所以剛剛講說現場的管理人讓我們知道有什麼變動……"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以在這個部分，我們是不是可以請業者比如每週就更新資料上傳雲端，然後到了現場發生火災的時候，現場指揮官在拿到這個雲端資料之後，他可以知道現場可能有什麼樣的危險物品及相關狀況，他就可以馬上指揮第一線弟兄應該要怎麼做，我覺得這個可以防範火災，就像上次的明揚大火發生的事，而且這種作法也可以讓我們的弟兄們到火災現場的時候，就可以先透過手機知道相關的資料，哪裡有儲存危險的物品，不是到了火場才有這樣的資料，因為半年的時間事實上可能有很大的轉變，而且剛剛我提到的這個部分，是不是能夠來做這樣一個修正？"],["蕭署長煥章：這個部分我們會跟經濟部再來進一步商討，經濟部那邊是有要求工廠輔導法裡面只要有大變動，它也要跟著修正，有關操作層面，我們跟經濟部再來談。"],["許委員宇甄：對，因為我覺得半年時間真的太長，事實上，上傳雲端每週做更新的話，對業者來說，這也是它應該要盡的一個義務跟責任，另外再請教一下部長，有關這次院版修正第二十五條之九的規定，就是各級政府辦理消防人員安全衛生防護設備措施跟健康檢查所需要的費用，應該優先編列預算。請問一下部長，這次增訂這個條文的用意是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：我想我們既然把消防法設定一個職業安全專章，對於消防人員，包括是正職的消防人員跟義消，本來就是要保障他的身心健康，既然要保障他身心健康的話，不管是防護設備或者是他自己本身的體檢所需要的經費當然要優先編列。"],["許委員宇甄：那現在沒有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在優先編的意思是「應」優先編列，本來我們針對現在的消防員就有編列。"],["許委員宇甄：對，因為我想對於各級政府來說，一定就已經在做這些事情了。"],["劉部長世芳：包括地方政府，中央政府一定會編列。"],["許委員宇甄：對，那地方政府應該是只要財源沒有困難的，它一定都會優先編列，所以我現在不曉得這個條文寫上去的意思是說，現在有地方政府沒有這樣做嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，目前消防裝備器材種類真的很多，我們整個盤點以後，像最近院裡面核定的二、三個計畫總共270億，就是針對這個問題來解決目前的狀況，這次的職安中程計畫也特別針對消防特定的檢查，我們每年也匡列一定的額度，讓全國消防人員可以做這方面的健康檢查，也就是回應到剛剛委員所關心的這個條文，特別把它凸顯出來以後，提醒地方政府、中央政府，這個預算是需要配合我們滾動調整以後，有哪些經費需要再來編列，跟委員回報。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我剛提到這個就是說，事實上有些地方政府的財源並沒有那麼充足，所以這個部分如果遇到這樣一個狀況，是不是可以請中央也優先提供補助呢？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員提醒，其實剛剛署長講得非常清楚，如果他是屬於全面性或通案性，譬如說我們救火的消防人員可能肺部需要做健康檢查，這個大概就是我們全面會處理，但是針對個別的地方政府，譬如說也許有的人要針對高血壓或是其他的部分，請他們自行來編列，如果這方面是屬於通案性的話，應該是消防署要全面來吸收。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分主要是針對，因為事實上財劃法已經25年沒有修正過，所以有些地方的財源確實很不足，當然也希望針對財源不足的這些縣市，他們一定很希望去照顧這些消防弟兄，而相關的安全防護設備、各方面的設備還有健康檢查，他們一定都願意。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["許委員宇甄：但針對這個部分如果有財源不足的地方，也希望中央是不是能夠優先來做？"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量來試看看，看怎麼檢討及幫忙。"],["許委員宇甄：不好意思，主席是不是可以給我1分鐘的時間，我想再請教一個部分，就是在政院版的第四十三條之二規定，各級消防機關，經中央主管機關或上級機關通知限期改善，屆期未改善者，處新臺幣三萬元以上三十萬以下罰鍰。請問一下，這個意思就是說，我們中央主管機關內政部消防署要罰我們的消防局嗎？是這樣的意思嗎？第四十三條之二。"],["蕭署長煥章：其實這個部分就各級消防機關，所以它會有它的上級機關，比如說縣市政府，中央會由內政部或者消防署這邊來執行，當然，目前這個條文，我們會先從改善的角度來做處理，不是一下子就處罰。"],["許委員宇甄：對，因為我想這個部分如果是罰消防局的話，那消防局的局長是要用自己的薪水去付罰鍰，還是要用消防局的預算支付？"],["蕭署長煥章：這個部分，事實上我們訂定這個條文就是要讓縣市能夠面對到前面這些，包括剛剛委員所提到的可能預算的編列、裝備器材的提供或者是他的訓練，或者是職安這些問題來請它處理……"],["許委員宇甄：我只是點出這個問題啦！希望針對這個部分，事實上你罰消防局，它一定也是用消防局的預算去做罰鍰支付，不可能只罰個人，雖然點出問題，但是我覺得解決之道更重要，在這邊也謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢。","下一位請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":14.324093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.859718750000003,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.22659375,"end":62.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.36284375,"end":68.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.37471875,"end":128.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.71971875,"end":160.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.17034375,"end":173.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.38784375,"end":186.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.82534375,"end":182.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.56721875000002,"end":188.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.57534375,"end":221.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.60284375,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.82471875000002,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.89221875,"end":212.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.90909375,"end":212.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.95971875,"end":213.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.17909375000002,"end":213.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.40159375000002,"end":227.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.66221875000002,"end":230.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.96534375000002,"end":232.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.88909375,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.46221875,"end":239.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.29721875,"end":250.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.27159375000002,"end":242.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.50721875000002,"end":284.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.28596875,"end":300.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.86159375,"end":306.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.71721875000003,"end":315.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.34034375000005,"end":317.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.44971875000005,"end":319.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.55096875000004,"end":319.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.79534375000003,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.70909375,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.76346875,"end":340.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.85534375000003,"end":345.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.52971875000003,"end":369.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.03221875,"end":376.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.51221875000005,"end":379.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.14034375,"end":383.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.62096875000003,"end":390.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.19346875,"end":393.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.96534375000005,"end":407.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.72471875,"end":394.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.49159375000005,"end":401.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.69721875000005,"end":412.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.77659375,"end":417.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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各位委員各位官員大家早安 是不是有請我們劉副長還有我們署長"},{"start":18.234,"end":42.668,"text":"謝謝部長、署長今天討論的是消防法的修法大家都知道在上次民洋火災之後消防人員上街抗議要求要組工會當時本席也在這邊跟署長跟部長請議針對他們當時要求的消防員第一個組工會的事情第二個針對他們的資訊落差的一個"},{"start":45.029,"end":47.61,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":63.574,"end":67.315,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":83.319,"end":88.102,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":106.712,"end":116.737,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":128.823,"end":134.61,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":148.024,"end":172.05,"text":"所以我這邊昨天在質詢的時候請院長一定要督促秀山消防分隊提早來臨時編制。那昨天很感謝院長跟部長都從善如流。但是原文的部分請署長跟部長可以簡單來講一下,有沒有跟國際相比有沒有盡量來追上其他縣市分國際的標準?"},{"start":173.61,"end":187.883,"text":"張委員,等一下的部分我請署長回答,但是你昨天提到有關綜合秀山分隊的部分,我們已經有要求要跟國防部的軍備局來救那個臨時的辦工廠房的部分,他能不能延長到5年?好,非常感謝,非常感謝。"},{"start":188.604,"end":214.603,"text":"很感謝委員,消防人力現在是各縣市正在擴編,尤其情報化解釋含有人力的需求更大,所以縣市目前缺額全國缺額是1400位,目前現在正在考特考的學生呢,有2000、200位的報名,我們要錄取1000位,那如果說他的分數可以達到50分以上,我們可能考慮還要整個錄取,這是針對每年這個量,那每年1000的量,"},{"start":216.664,"end":221.651,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":233.288,"end":241.512,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":259.02,"end":284.347,"text":"當你這個員額在增加的時候沒有想到我們有些老舊的廳舍完全這個空間不足啊來今天跟大家跟部長報告一下看到這個圖大家應該都嚇到齁這個我們所有的辛苦的消防人員除了現在天氣非常熱到外面就在一樣回到自己的寢室或者是休息室的時候發現四個人住在一間只有不到"},{"start":285.347,"end":290.648,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":306.812,"end":332.398,"text":"部長跟署長在增加人力的時候這個人還睡得下嗎?這個未來老舊宿舍老舊廳舍的問題要如何解決?老舊廳舍的問題有沒有去統整一下?內部裝修我們去年今年有針對150個分隊的內部像這個凌亂或者是不乾淨或者是有瘋癲這個目前已經在做後續還會繼續來執行"},{"start":334.818,"end":345.583,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":364.773,"end":368.437,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":380.391,"end":398.605,"text":"若說委員關心秀山分隊。不是不是,我的這個不只秀山分隊,秀山分隊是還沒有,還連那個分隊都沒有出現,這是我們綜合其他的分隊,這個宿舍老舊的一個問題。那委員這樣好嗎,就是你有關提到這個宿舍老舊或是時間過久的部分,剛剛署長已經跟您報告是150處。"},{"start":400.486,"end":402.127,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":420.481,"end":425.185,"text":"如果社會住宅可以有這樣的一個空間或是有這樣子的時間出現的話我們的這個這個住住中心或是我們國土管理署就會來幫忙一方面也解決這個年輕的這個消防員未來他們的這個住家或是這個租屋的困難所以如果我們兩個可以結合的話會更好那尤其張委員所在的地區人口非常的稠密怎麼樣找到適合的空間恐怕邀請張委員或是相關的委員來幫忙"},{"start":447.363,"end":474.349,"text":"好 謝謝部長的回答就是未來大家中央地方一條心那我也希望說我們立法院是沒辦法增加預算可是內政部可以協助這個消防署針對一些或警政署針對一些聽證老舊如果找到一些地方可以來遷移的或者是可以來協助這些住宿的一些問題大家一起來努力好不好 謝謝好 謝謝我們張助人委員的"}]}},{"id":"154254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1e82164a561be41f768d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9cb902c6b3e87089da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:10:13 - 10:17:07","影片長度":"00:06:54","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:10:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:17:07+08:00","duration":414,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時10分）好，謝謝部長、署長！"],["主席：請部長和署長。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長、署長，今天大家都關心我們的消防法，本來是今天要排審，因為國民黨未簽署不復議同意書，那麼我們今天就採用質詢的方式。大家都關心我們的消防，因為消防打火弟兄的安全，包含職業的安全與衛生的專章，所以我們早上在討論，本席在這裡也聽了很多，但是我要特別跟部長、署長說，我剛才看到蘇巧慧委員所整理的比例，新北市的比例真的是六都裡面最低的，消防人員缺額九百多位，非常的誇張，是不是拜託部長、署長，要如何將缺額趕快來補足？需要多久的時間？"],["劉部長世芳：跟召委報告，召委非常關心，你自己也是義消的隊長！"],["吳委員琪銘：是大隊長。"],["劉部長世芳：要跟召委報告的就是，現在我們已經想辦法解決考試院那個地方的考試人員資格，因為這是很專業的。"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["劉部長世芳：可以快一點達到我們所要求的部分。剛剛署長也有報告過，這一次我們在招考的過程當中還算順利喔！如果順利的話，未來我們希望大概是在兩年內可以補足1,000到1,400人左右，會按照原來我們的編制員額趕快配比到其他的縣市裡面，尤其是在幾個六都比較多高樓建築的部分，希望能夠趕快把編制員額補足。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝部長！因為部長這樣說，你們辦理的速度一定要快，畢竟編制員額的差額差太多了。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：但是消防弟兄他們還有一個問題，就是他平常的超時工作，超時我們過去說用記功、用嘉獎的方式，我們現在應該要用補金額還是補假的方式？我請署長說明，因為這關係到我們消防存在的問題，總是要解決啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：是，真的如委員所關心的，健康權是我們優先的考量，在健康權考慮的情形之下，另外從去年開始人事總處特別要求就是補假，也將金額提高至1萬9,000元，由兩個部分來處理。也就是在這兩個大原則之下，我們的服勤時間怎麼在這個框框之下來達成？當然未來每兩年會減少24小時工時，這也是我們在進行的目標，就是人力增加以後，他們的勤休相對就可以更正常，目前這個方向要訂……"],["吳委員琪銘：因為你沒有人力編組，你要用補假的方式，人員還是缺少啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：對啦！"],["吳委員琪銘：你說用補錢方式也是一個辦法，但是你的時間要定在什麼時候？不管補假或補錢，總是要給我們的消防弟兄交代，不然他們期待政府要做改變的……"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：結果完全都沒有，這樣子也說不過去啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：所以感謝委員！勤務的方式我們現在也在檢討，譬如說晚上勤務是白天三分之一的量，所以晚上的外宿也是考量之一，就是住在分隊附近的同仁，晚間他可以回到家裡面，那個時間就會相對減少；那麼服勤的時間不是24小時，中間可能2個鐘頭或3個鐘頭，完全可以讓同仁放空、出去吃個飯或回家看個小孩，這都已經在進行了；甚至我們早上8點上班時間是不是稍微慢一點？晚上下班或者早上下班的時候提早下班，這個部分都同步在進行當中，我覺得很多的彈性啦。"],["吳委員琪銘：重點是我們什麼時候有辦法實施？"],["蕭署長煥章：現在都在做了、現在已經在做了。"],["吳委員琪銘：有在做了嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：現在正在做、現在正在做。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為現在新北市還存在著這個問題啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：不要緊，我們再和臺北市跟新北市來檢討一下。"],["吳委員琪銘：新北市打火兄弟跟我講的，這個問題一定要快點解決。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，謝謝委員！"],["吳委員琪銘：剛才王美惠委員有提到，因為2050年淨零排放，我們很多電動車要用鋰電池，鋰電池這個部分，署長，我更正一下，這個月月初有一起鋰電池造成三個人火災死亡的事件，起因是屋主看到它冒煙，結果他潑水導致爆炸。針對鋰電池的問題，我們還是要宣導，不然……他是凌晨看到冒煙，他就用水潑，造成爆炸。鋰電池引發的事件，過去在電動車也發生過，未來的趨勢會越來越多，我們要怎樣防範，不要再造成火災？這是我們未來要做的。再來一點，新北市用機器人滅火，這非常好用，它是採用履帶，現在新款還有送風、增加壓力，水量會更大。但是我們只有買電動車，光有車子要怎麼載？這一點你要就整套，這是我們未來要做的。"],["蕭署長煥章：今年每一個縣市有四臺機器人。"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["蕭署長煥章：也考慮到運輸的車輛，這個經費包括在裡面，沒有問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：車子沒問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：對，我們編預算就包括運輸的車輛，今年每一個縣市有四部機器人……"],["吳委員琪銘：對，機器人。"],["蕭署長煥章：車輛的經費都包括在裡面，感謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員琪銘：機器人在裡面作業，畢竟現在是科技滅火，所以我們還是要妥善使用科技。謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘召委。","請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.1953437500000001,"end":4.232843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.37596875,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.278468750000002,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.88909375,"end":22.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.06534375,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.17909375,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.71409375,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.945968750000002,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.06409375,"end":33.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.67971875,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.38784375,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.18471875,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.369718750000004,"end":53.001593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.23784375,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.17846875,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.017843750000004,"end":58.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.890968750000006,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.055343750000006,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.62909375,"end":64.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.69596875,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.70846875000001,"end":67.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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10:09:58","影片長度":"00:11:04","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:58:54+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:09:58+08:00","duration":664,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時58分）主席，有請消防署。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：署長，因為有很多老百姓不知道我們的電動車鋰電池在公務局的統計裡面，這三年來，每一年汽車加機車差不多將近10萬輛，在這個過程中有一些老百姓並不知道，到底在火燒車之後是能夠用水滅火，還是不能用水滅火？直到最近大家比較瞭解了，就是在雲林的高速公路附近發生一輛電動車火燒車，大家才知道這是要用水滅火，不是不能用水滅火。署長是不是這樣，我說的有沒有正確？"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員。委員對消防非常瞭解，事實上……"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦！你簡單地說是不是這樣？未來要如何處理讓老百姓知道。"],["蕭署長煥章：一定要用大量水來滅火，才有辦法達到滅火的目的。"],["王委員美惠：需要大水才有辦法來滅火，因為車已經燒起來了。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["王委員美惠：在這個過程當中，我想請問署長，現在沒有缺水好處理，如果有缺水的時候要怎麼辦？這也是一種危機耶！"],["蕭署長煥章：沒有錯。"],["王委員美惠：沒有錯嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：在水源的部分，消防局有很多的替代水源，包括簡易的自來水或地下水，這些都有在考慮，還有包括游泳池的蓄水，在我們的資料庫裡面都有，所以萬一真的缺水水源要怎麼來，像再生水中心也是一個來源，這部分感謝委員提醒，我們會正式來盤點。"],["王委員美惠：署長，這裡要提到雲林的設備，這次雲林發生火燒車是有一個擋水板，那不是你們的設備，你們規劃未來的設備有沒有這項東西呢？"],["蕭署長煥章：擋水板是組成一個水槽，在裡面注水使用。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！未來你們要加強這個啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：這項訓練我們都有訓練過，就是說……"],["王委員美惠：有訓練，但是在雲林的時候，那個東西不是你們的，是向水利署借的。"],["蕭署長煥章：有很多的方法啦！"],["王委員美惠：所以這種設備要加強，不然萬一水利署也要使用，你們也要使用，這樣就慘了。"],["蕭署長煥章：好，整個救災方法我們來加強，感謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：再來，署長，本席要告訴你，依法在2023年1月初開始，消防人員的排休是做一天、休一天，不過在這個過程當中，去年人事室回答這樣人數不夠，所以做兩天、休兩天並沒有違法。署長，本席要請教一下，你們人事室在去年10月說的，到現在已經9個月了，消防人員到目前可以依法做一天、休一天嗎？還是目前有哪一個縣市有這樣做？請署長回答一下。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。目前的方向跟目標都已經達成了，就是勤一休一。"],["王委員美惠：都還沒有達成。"],["蕭署長煥章：達成了、達成了！"],["王委員美惠：達成？休一天、做一天……"],["蕭署長煥章：做一天、休一天還是做兩天、休兩天這個目標。"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦！我現在是跟你談做一天、休一天的縣市在哪裡？請你回答一下。"],["蕭署長煥章：每個縣市都有。"],["王委員美惠：每個縣市都有？"],["蕭署長煥章：是！"],["王委員美惠：每一個都有？"],["蕭署長煥章：都有達到這個目標。"],["王委員美惠：署長，你要去瞭解現況。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員，請你提醒一下有哪一個縣市做不到，我們來檢討。依目前的狀況勤一休一或勤二休二，每一個月的狀況是176小時加上另外的加班時間，176小時增加的時間就是1萬9,000的超勤加班費，不然就是要給他們休息。"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦！就是大家共同奮鬥下才有1萬9,000，這是為了鼓勵他們……"],["蕭署長煥章：對！很感謝大家的幫忙。"],["王委員美惠：本席想告訴你，人事室去年10月所講的，到現在可以讓消防人員做一天、休一天，目前每個縣市都有嘛？"],["蕭署長煥章：都是這樣。"],["王委員美惠：都是這樣？這樣很好……"],["蕭署長煥章：對！而且逐兩年再減少24小時。"],["王委員美惠：署長，如果是這樣最好，因為依本席所瞭解的，有一些縣市還有這個問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：不會啦，請委員再給我們指示，我們再來檢討。"],["王委員美惠：署長，本席跟你談這個是覺得消防人員實在非常辛苦，如果看到他們在打火的時候，等他們出來、想要喝一口茶，他們都沒辦法喝，看到現場的那種辛苦，你會很難過的。署長，在這裡我要來向你請教，行政院有訂一個專章，雖然在立法院的程序沒辦法審理，不過我們今天是要討論，今天本席要跟你討論的就是，消防法增訂職安專章的時候，在第二十五條增加之一到之九，裡面有寫到適用對象消防人員，不過本席所看到的覺得，你們對消防人員做出明確的定義是什麼？署長，我請問你，你們寫消防人員有沒有把義消納在裡面？來，回答一下。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員明察秋毫，其實有規定在後面，第二十五條之二是說義消人員也適用在範圍內。"],["王委員美惠：我再跟你講第二十五條之二，署長，你現在是說第二十五條之二的安全衛生管理系統裡面有包含義消，有嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，有包括。"],["王委員美惠：本席還要再跟你探討的是第二十五條之四，定期統計、評估消防人員的安全，針對消防人員的種種問題跟做法。我覺得說引起疾病、傷害、失能或是死亡的狀況之下，他們都要隨時回報並做成事故調查紀錄，不過這裡面應該都要納入義消人員才對啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：有，都有納入。"],["王委員美惠：有啦？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們現在分隊若出事，near miss或區間之間，從去年一開始就已經做紀錄跟調查，瞭解背後的問題來改進。"],["王委員美惠：喔！因為我覺得消防人員很辛苦，義消……"],["蕭署長煥章：更辛苦！"],["王委員美惠：他們是義務的，更加辛苦，應該爭取他們的權利，我們都要爭取，所以本席才會去探討這些問題，不然只有寫消防人員，我們也不知道是不是有把義消納入，這樣子很好，是一個有擔當的政府。","本席在這裡要再跟你說，說實在的很可惜，今天沒有辦法審查到行政院的草案，我是覺得國民黨說歸說、做歸做的，因為消防人員大家都非常辛苦，當初在衛環委員會討論的時候，也盼望你們在1個月內趕快處理，早日讓這些消防人員得以安全。因為我占用的時間太久了，我還會書面補強，麻煩再給我答復，最主要就是，感謝你們對嘉義市這些消防設備的補助，從112年到115年，嘉義有4台雲梯車，未來我們的水車要做什麼……","本席要跟你舉一個例子，高雄發生火災之後，我們的消防人員殞落了好幾位；重點是新竹5月26日也發生火災，我們的消防人員也殞落了兩位。在這個過程當中，我們的房子越蓋越高，再來新竹的人也很好，民間吊車廠的吊車願意協助政府的時候，這樣可以還是不可以？署長，你回答一下。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員關心我們的高樓救災啦！高樓救災其實光靠雲梯車是不夠的，還是要靠建築物本身的設備跟防火區劃，所以新竹火警之後，部長特別交代國土署、消防署，甚至派政次到現場去做抽查，就是讓大家重視到高樓建築物的建築防火、避難安全的要求是最重要的……"],["王委員美惠：對啦！重要，我現在是說，有好心的人，拖吊廠的吊車可以協助我們救災的時候，這有安全還是沒有安全疑慮嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，我們有需要考慮啦！"],["王委員美惠：喔！需要考慮？"],["蕭署長煥章：因為進出、進入……"],["王委員美惠：他是因為愛心才願意協助我們的，不過為了安全，有時候我們也需要顧慮。"],["蕭署長煥章：是、對。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得這是很大的問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：因為樓層越高，吊車的支架就要越寬，我們的路夠不夠寬……"],["王委員美惠：對，因為今天國土署署長沒有來，只有你列席，我本來要問你，根據你們統計每縣市16樓以上的大樓，統計之後的結果是怎麼樣？各縣市有跟你們回報嗎？這個你再跟本席……"],["蕭署長煥章：我們有書面資料給委員，是，感謝委員！"],["王委員美惠：好，謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝王美惠委員的質詢。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：請吳琪銘召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":5.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.414093750000001,"end":7.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.240343750000001,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.45534375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.45846875,"end":21.614093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":27.199718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.26721875,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.80659375,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.88221875,"end":35.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.43471875,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.44284375,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.775968750000004,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.61534375,"end":44.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.407843750000005,"end":48.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.12034375,"end":52.360343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.51221875,"end":53.524718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.01409375,"end":55.549718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":57.203468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.659093750000004,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":60.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.94971875,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.04096875,"end":75.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.43284375,"end":79.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.91346875,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.76971875000001,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.27534375,"end":83.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.91221875000001,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.34659375000001,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.34659375000001,"end":90.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.15659375,"end":88.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.62034375,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.39659375000001,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":95.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.75846875,"end":99.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.92659375000001,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.54659375,"end":125.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.35659375,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.56659375000001,"end":110.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.18471875,"end":127.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.89284375000001,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.16096875,"end":140.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.90346875,"end":145.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.95784375,"end":146.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.71284375000002,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.86846875,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.18409375000002,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.20096875000002,"end":158.21721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剛才就跟你說之二市長你現在就是說第25條在你的安全衛生管理系統裡面就是有包含義消是"},{"start":407.924,"end":411.307,"text":"因為這裏面本席要向你探討的就是25條知識,經濟的統計、評估消防人員的安全、針對消防人員種種的問題和做法。我認為因其疾病、傷害、"},{"start":429.581,"end":432.743,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":446.631,"end":446.791,"text":"三、審查委員"},{"start":462.079,"end":471.407,"text":"我們消防人員辛苦二少爺現在做義務的更加辛苦所以我們如果要整理他們的管理我們都要整理所以本社才會去探討這些問題出來不只是說消防人員我們也不知道你是不是有哪一路這樣是很好的是一個有擔當的政府本社在這裡要跟你說"},{"start":489.542,"end":495.844,"text":"我們說實在很可惜,今天在武漢道心中,我們行政院的這個草案出來,我覺得公民都說了說了,做了做了,因為大家說實在消防人員,大家都非常辛苦,當然是在未完的時間,我們在一個月內,"},{"start":514.946,"end":520.368,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":542.967,"end":547.032,"text":"我們1982年到1985年,因為自己有四台運輸車,跟未來我們要追車要做什麼,本身要跟你說一個,高雄發生,發生之後,我們的消防領域,"},{"start":561.32,"end":565.942,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":577.469,"end":593.922,"text":"五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":607.973,"end":614.218,"text":"大家重點是高樓建築物的建築防火必然安全要求重要。對啦,我重要,我現在是說,好心的人,拖吊中,他的吊車說可以啦,我們協助的時候,這有安全嗎?不安全嗎?"},{"start":625.228,"end":627.369,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":647.862,"end":651.165,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"}]}},{"id":"154252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1a36ca3484316b5ed68d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9c0679b2e967ff48935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:50:06 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«消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":70.78,"end":78.663,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":91.508,"end":96.252,"text":"五、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":111.765,"end":116.209,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員"},{"start":131.474,"end":141.419,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":157.088,"end":160.552,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":170.546,"end":192.982,"text":"報告委員,我想您講的部分應該是說寶二總隊在過去一段時間以來希望它能夠防衛我們自己台灣的關鍵基礎設施。原先你講的像科學園區、工業區本來也是關鍵基礎設施,只不過我們對關鍵基礎設施上面的定義增加了譬如說像電廠或是核電廠。那我想重要的部分是在於就是我們希望能夠防範"},{"start":194.404,"end":203.091,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":222.754,"end":228.479,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":240.55,"end":244.772,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":265.4,"end":279.209,"text":"對,你讓我了解,本先生是要先告訴我們,你未來這樣子舉行的授訓,他是以重型武器為主,未來他涉及到的是,他的訓練單位是在哪裡,他未來在執勤是要拿什麼武器的。"},{"start":280.009,"end":283.77,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":298.787,"end":315.967,"text":"為什麼會這樣講?因為像台東縣,台東縣很特別,地形狹長,面積也大,原本的警力就不夠了,那你補充,增加補充的這些警力是到寶二區,原本基礎的這些維護治安的警力不夠的部分,那我們要怎麼來解決它?"},{"start":317.662,"end":343.142,"text":"報告委員在警務的這個組織結構上面保警不管從保一到保七他們本來就各有不同的保安任務跟一般我們到縣市地方警察局去服務的這些警察同仁是不太一樣那您所說的是台東縣現在縣的這個警察的警力不足的部分那我們來想辦法看如何來解決但是也希望台東縣政府能夠一起來合作"},{"start":343.542,"end":371.093,"text":"當然,謝謝。謝謝部長。部長,其實本席擔心的是,原本的警力就在吃緊的,然後又把這樣的警力放到飽和區。沒有,我剛剛已經跟您說過了,在組織結構會編制上面,本來就是隸屬不同的這個服勤的項目,跟服勤的範圍。我們不是用這樣子的移撥的方式,這樣子太隨便了,我想這不太好。不是啦,是說基礎的經濟也要補起來,不然真的不夠了。那因為,其實像台東它不像六都一樣人口密集嘛,高樓林地嘛。"},{"start":372.354,"end":378.04,"text":"但是台東縣的治安一向都很不錯,所以觀光才會非常的有融解。執警的時候範圍變大,需要更多的警力。我們先講到消防的部分,台東縣主席給我一點時間。"},{"start":386.854,"end":409.865,"text":"台東目前我們的消防人員只有38位,這個是台東而已,還不包括全台的這個缺額,1400多人。那,署長你說未來要增加這個警專的這個特考的名額,對不對?是。增加名額不代表就有那麼多人願意考,也沒有入企那麼多。那這個部分,署長部長你們有什麼解決方法?"},{"start":410.65,"end":425.207,"text":"委員關心人力的進出,今年特考班有2200名報名,我們預期入局1000名。那去年是考試科目,他的分數達不到50分,所以才386位。那今年實際到考是1800位。"},{"start":426.721,"end":438.828,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":451.715,"end":453.497,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":468.433,"end":472.174,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 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inReach的技術讓登山者在遇險的時候能夠把定位報出來。這些科技的技術正在執行，當然，山域的救援也可以用無人機來精準定位人已經在什麼地方，用科技的無人機來定位其精準的位置應該會有更好的幫助，目前正在執行當中。"],["張委員宏陸：山林火災也可以，對不對？我知道你們有，我問這個的意思是，你們有，但這個部分要有專才，如果沒有專才，給你無人機，你也不會用啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我們有在訓練。"],["張委員宏陸：對，所以我要問，這個訓練的如何？"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝，我們現在全國無人機的飛手已經達到快800位，而且甚至進階級的等級都出來了，這個部分會依照委員的關心持續來進行，我們也把他分成山域、水域、火災方面的情境，讓操作者能夠適應他的情境來達成救災任務。當然，現在我們有國際交流，上個禮拜我們有一批同仁到土耳其去，他們有一個無人機可以看到山域火警的定位，我想這些都是新的技術可以當成我們以後應用的一個參考，感謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。另外，有關本次的修正，署長應該知道，我一直蠻關心化學品跟工廠危險物品，我已經質詢很多次了，這次我們修法也有把它納入，但未來的執行我覺得要非常的落實，這個部分署長有沒有把握、有沒有信心可以非常的落實執行？我為什麼要這樣說，你知道嗎？我在廠房，雖然我現在給你的是這個，但早上我可能要進貨，所以先把它挪開，你會知道嗎？你可能不知道，那你不知道，如果發生問題的時候，我們弟兄就是照原來的這樣衝進去，有可能會有問題，那麼我們如何可以做到這樣？其實以現在的科技，我們都可以，我們辦法裡面的施行細則是授權你們去處理，那你們有沒有信心把它做到這麼細？"],["蕭署長煥章：兩個部分，一是它的變動，所以我們有資訊權，就是業者要有專人來跟我們講現場的狀況，這個就能夠達到委員剛才講的，有變動他可以讓我們知道，我們隨時來做應變，這是第一個部分。當然化學雲上面的資訊，跟部長要求國土署的建築資訊，這個部分我們也結合進來，未來這幾年119報案系統會把這些資訊做個整合，委員也瞭解AI技術的成熟，我們會想辦法把AI技術結合到我們的這些派遣資料裡面，讓救災人員能夠及時掌握、及時處理，感謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，其實這個也不用說到AI技術啦！我覺得以現在的技術都可以做到，你看，我們所有的發貨倉庫等等，只要每一個物品移動，電腦馬上都知道，他就掃碼什麼的，馬上都知道，其實我們就可以要求他們這樣啊！對特別危險的，只要我有監視系統，我只要建置電腦，他只要一移動，跟你們連線，你就知道了嘛！不然他一定會心存僥倖，我早上要進貨，我先把它移開，我下午就移回來了，那你怎麼知道這中間會發生什麼。署長，你剛剛說幾年，我真的覺得不用到幾年啦！我如果是署長、如果是部長，我會要求你們半年內、一年內，我真的覺得以現在的科技這不是困難的，是可以做到的，你做到可以救我們很多的弟兄，這一點我要拜託署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：我們來努力。"],["張委員宏陸：可以嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，我們來努力，謝謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢。","下一位請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6253437500000003,"end":5.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.414093750000001,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":7.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.48159375,"end":5.498468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.793468750000001,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.19784375,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.90159375,"end":24.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.242218750000003,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.10534375,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.43346875,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.80034375,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.21784375,"end":47.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.56784375,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.74721875,"end":61.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.860968750000005,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.75471875000001,"end":70.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.77096875000001,"end":73.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.04471875,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.43659375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.95471875000001,"end":84.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.28346875000001,"end":90.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.70034375,"end":94.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.23971875000001,"end":97.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.24346875,"end":98.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.08721875,"end":100.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.79159375,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.26284375,"end":110.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.83221875000001,"end":113.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.13971875,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.44221875000001,"end":123.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.31534375000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.01971875000001,"end":133.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.79909375,"end":134.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.82409375,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.78159375,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.14534375000002,"end":168.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.93284375000002,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":224.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.09284375000001,"end":228.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.50159375,"end":229.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.83471875,"end":230.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.22284375,"end":231.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.23971875,"end":230.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.29846875,"end":238.71096875},{"speaker":"SP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«消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":407.369,"end":410.69,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":430.094,"end":454.262,"text":"那你怎麼知道這中間會什麼?我認為啊,署長你剛剛說幾年齁,我真的覺得齁,不用到幾年啦。我如果是署長,如果是部長,我會要求你們這個半年內、一年內,我真的覺得以現在的科技不是困難,是可以做到。那你做到,可以救我們很多的弟兄。這一點我要拜託署長。是,我們來努力。可以嗎?是,我們來努力。好,謝謝。謝謝委員。"}]}},{"id":"154250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1f0ba9c44f067f57168d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9cb778835489c198765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:35:50 - 09:42:05","影片長度":"00:06:15","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:35:50+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:42:05+08:00","duration":375,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時35分）謝謝，有請部長跟署長。"],["主席：請部長跟署長，謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：剛才蘇巧慧委員質詢的，我覺得他身為新北市的民代，他還是很客氣，主席也是新北市義消大隊的大隊長，針對新北市的編制員額以及預算員額可以短差到接近900個人，這是什麼樣的比例？也就是新北市目前現有員額2,500個，跟編制員額差了整整快要1,000個人，共996個人。當然縣市政府有籌編預算然後聘任等等的權力，但是相對也造成新北市2,500個消防員要多負擔1,000個人力的工作，也就是一個人平均要多做快要半個人的工作，也就是本來如果說工作八個小時，他等於要多加四個小時的工作這樣的人力負擔，我想消防署應該有個態度，署長，你可不可以回應一下？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們目前遇到的人力問題，其實地方政府、議會也都在反映，怎麼樣讓消防人力能夠適當的擴充……"],["李委員柏毅：你這樣講好像是新北市議會的反映不夠用力呢！差996個人，那個比例餒。"],["蕭署長煥章：沒有，雙方面都……我們共同來努力，因為消防人力是共同的問題，而且是公共財，也直接影響到地方的應變能量……"],["李委員柏毅：我覺得這個問題不能放任。署長，我舉高雄市為例，很努力的在補齊，現在已經差了大概200個左右，但是也希望在這三年內可以補齊到我們的編制員額，讓高雄市的消防弟兄不要有那麼大的壓力。還有一個補破網的工作，也在這邊請教部長5月27號在新竹罹難的兩位消防弟兄，內政部或署裡面對這兩位消防弟兄有沒有什麼撫卹或者是對家屬的一些照顧？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝李委員的關心，剛好這兩位殉職的弟兄都是在李委員的選區裡面……"],["李委員柏毅：我知道都在我的選區裡。"],["劉部長世芳：對。第一個，我們按照消防署的規定給他撫卹是沒有問題的；第二個就是家屬有要求他們自己的家屬，第一個要調到高雄市的消防局，這個調動也沒有問題；那另外……"],["李委員柏毅：所以這個李姓消防員的弟弟已經調到內勤單位了？"],["劉部長世芳：對，然後另外一位……"],["李委員柏毅：那另外一位姓周的這位？"],["劉部長世芳：對，姓周的這位是他的哥哥，現在我們請他的哥哥到楠梓的高雄都會公園來上班，所以就是依照家屬的要求，我們都安排妥當，這位哥哥大概是7月1號正式上班。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝，謝謝部長的安排，當然對於罹難者的家屬，我們感到非常地遺憾，對於罹難的弟兄，我們感到非常地遺憾之外，部裡面緊急的做這些安排，我想也要讓社會，讓我們所有的消防弟兄知道，我們有快速的做了這些安排。","另外，針對吹哨者條款，我想吹哨者的定義，在我們消防法裡面的定義非常的明確，當然為了公司的治理，公司對於它的成本控管、空間等等自有其安排，但是過去的老闆們把公司的治理，甚至把這些危害的物品也當成治理的項目之一，而沒有顧及到它的安全，這是我們這一次修法裡面最重要的精神之一。所以我們鼓勵公司裡面，不管是在處理這個工作的員工或者是相關的公司部門，都可以針對危險物品或是標示的部分來做一個警示，這部分我想我們在這邊表達高度的支持。除此之外，對於公司的負責人必須負有相關的刑責，我們也在此表達支持。另外，有一個議題比較複雜一點，牽涉到的問題是有一些公務單位，比如說違章工廠，在我們消防安檢的時候遇到違章工廠，署長，我們通常會有什麼樣的處置？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，我們是以實際用途來要求設置消防安全設備，那委員關心的就是設備怎麼設，目前……"],["李委員柏毅：我問的是違章工廠的部分。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。經濟部針對特登工廠有設置專業的輔導，也有經費的補助，經費補助這部分，我們也結合消防設備師（士）來幫忙設計它的設備內容，然後取得國家資源的協助來強化它的消防安全，目前同步在進行當中。"],["李委員柏毅：對，我想還是要加強我們消防安檢同仁的權力。最後，我看到勞動部職安署署長今天也有來到現場，我想鄒署長應該沒有對消防單位做過職安的檢查吧？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，是消防單位不適用我們的職安法。"],["李委員柏毅：對。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["李委員柏毅：所以消防員相關的職安規定，包含他們的安全衛生防護法，未來要入法的時候，職安署是不是有相關的意見，要做相關的……"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，其實在研擬消防法職安專章的過程中，我們職安署都有密切跟消防署合作，把我們建議的條文內容跟相關的訊息也pass給消防署，我想後續我們兩署會更緊密的合作。"],["李委員柏毅：我想未來要稽查等等，還有未來對於消防法要入法很重要的精神，也請職安署這邊多協助，謝謝。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢。","下一位請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.15284375,"end":6.105968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.00471875,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.04221875,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.814093750000001,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.972843750000003,"end":27.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.039093750000003,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.13159375,"end":34.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.47284375,"end":36.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.61596875,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.90221875,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.830343750000004,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.626593750000005,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.02721875,"end":51.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.820343750000006,"end":55.212218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.30909375,"end":62.907218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.56096875,"end":68.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.15096875,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.11659375,"end":78.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.88784375,"end":79.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.03971875,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.10159375,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.96596875,"end":103.18784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.02471875,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.9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署長也有來到現場。我想周署長應該沒有對消防單位做過職安的檢查吧?"},{"start":333.318,"end":349.19,"text":"報告委員,消防單位不適用我們職安法。對,所以消防員的這些職安的這些相關的規定,未來這個包含他們的這些安全衛生防護法要入法的時候,職安署是不是有相關的意見要作響?"},{"start":350.691,"end":371.777,"text":"其實在消防法的職安專章的過程中我們職安署都有密切跟消防署提供合作把我們建議的條文內容跟相關訊息也發給消防署我想這後續我們會在兩署會更做緊密的合作我想這也是未來要稽查等等還有未來對於消防法要入法很重要的精神也請職安署這邊多協助謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154249","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd19fb1397602d7578b68d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9ccf599985f5c4a32d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:28:11 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09:35:42","影片長度":"00:07:31","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:28:11+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:35:42+08:00","duration":451,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":191,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（9時28分）謝謝主席。其實剛剛巧慧委員提到的這個部分，我們高雄也是啦，我相信部長自己很清楚，高雄服務的人口比跟範圍面積比都是最大的。"],["劉部長世芳：因為高雄是六都裡面面積最大的。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，所以其實高雄的消防員的工作真的非常辛苦，在這邊也要幫他們爭取一下，相信部長也很清楚。","首先我還是要在這邊譴責一下國民黨，為什麼呢？因為剛剛我們召委也有講到，今天其實最重要的是針對消防法修正條文的審查能開始進行，目標本來是這兩天要審查完畢，結果沒有想到國民黨團竟然拒簽這個不同意復議書，讓我非常驚訝，我也覺得非常遺憾，因為其實上個月在衛環委員會，這個是朝野委員都有共識的，都已經希望並要求內政部於一個月內要把職安專章擬出來，我們也很努力的擬出來了，結果沒想到他們今天竟然不要審，所以在這邊予以最嚴厲的譴責！我覺得這個速度是應該要加快。","再來提一下我所提修法版本的內容，因為我的版本其實跟我們目前的院版是滿類似的，其實我認為今天非常重要的還是職安專章，前面我們講一下資訊權的部分。首先請教一下部長，因為在2018年敬鵬大火之後，其實針對資訊權有非常大幅的檢討，這個真的非常非常重要，因為當時的悲劇是6位消防員殉職，現在想起來心還是很痛，我覺得最重要的其實當時有兩個問題，一個是當時的圖資並沒有即時更新，那時候他們手邊拿到的只有最基礎的消防設備的資訊，像是危險物品怎麼擺放、逃生出口以及工廠的機臺等等這些在那時候都沒有辦法及時取得，然後釀成了悲劇，其實這個都會增加救災的難度跟迷航的風險。","另外一個我覺得很重要的就是專人在現場的協助，只有他們自己熟悉地形的專人在現場才有辦法立即的協助救災的指揮官，然後可以及時的告知這些搶救的資訊。所以後來我們消防法有做第一次的修正，就是在第二十一條之一，針對這兩個重點先進行補強了，後來就我所知，內政部其實也針對這兩大問題有給予非常大力的修正，我想問一下，後來我們消防署自己做的努力有哪些呢？可不可以大致跟大家講一下？"],["劉部長世芳：好，我先跟黃委員報告一下，大概有兩個地方，第一個就是消防署跟相關的機構，譬如像化學署或者經濟部，他們對於所謂危險場所裡面的這些危害物質要事先提供，我們現在增加一個，就是對於高樓裡面，尤其是建築的示意圖也要先提供給消防隊員知道。第二個就是工廠本身，像是敬鵬大火，他們最有缺失的地方是在於它是放在儲存場所裡面，不一定放在工廠裡面，也就是說，它的危害物質報告到經濟部去的時候沒有做即時更新，如果沒有做即時更新，包括工廠的地點或是化學物質儲存的地方……"],["黃委員捷：其實明揚也是這樣嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：會造成消防員本身在判斷上面的一個錯誤或是遲滯，所以這兩個在這次的第二十一條之二裡面，我們都把它修正進去，也謝謝黃委員的關心。"],["黃委員捷：好，太好了，謝謝部長。再來，我請教一下消防署比較細節的部分，因為其實就我所知，你們現在有危害辨識卡，把所有不管是跟經濟部那邊要的資訊或是其他所有部會要的資訊都統一揭示在這個危害辨識卡上面，因為你們有訂定到2025年底要進行一個計畫，就是要推動所有的工廠企業都應該要有這樣的辨識卡嘛，我想問一下，現在有沒有掌握到底有多少比例的工廠已經把這個危害辨識卡準備完畢了呢？"],["蕭署長煥章：報告委員，H-Card目前已經宣導到1萬7,845家，就針對這個危害辨識卡怎麼用、怎麼建置，這些資料也用在化學雲上面……"],["黃委員捷：大概是多少比例？還有多少要努力啦，應該這樣問。"],["蕭署長煥章：這個部分，我們在整個統計，我們在查閱，還沒做到的，目前就朝向這個目標。因為剛才部長提到過，這些資訊都放在化學雲上面，我們在派遣的時候，這個資訊也通知在派遣令上面會出現出來，用不同的方法來達成我們期待的目標。"],["黃委員捷：是啦，當然我的最終目標還是希望不是只有勸導或者只是跟他們講一聲說你們要有這個危害辨識卡，而是他們應該要強制地知道自己有這樣的責任跟義務，這些東西都是必須要準備好的，這個只是準備的基本，而不是在跟他們勸誡之後，他們才勉強地說對，我們口頭上有告知啊！所以我覺得最重要的是接下來的救災資訊應該要入法。我也想要誠摯的建議，在我的版本裡面，我有要求把這個危害辨識卡要放在一個具體的地方，且每個工廠都應該要標示，把它入法了，這個其實也是在你們推動的計畫裡面有建議的嘛，就是說不管是放在值日室或者是他們的警衛室，要有一個具體的地方、明確的地方必須要放置這一些資訊，我也希望接下來是不是也能把它入法，讓它有一個更明確的規範，然後告知他們，沒有放的話是會被開罰的，這樣大家才會有所警惕，才知道這個是他們真的應該要盡到的義務。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，委員版本也有類似的這個條文，我們行政院版也有把這個條文列進去。"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["蕭署長煥章：期待是放在明顯易看到的地方，然後消防人員到現場救災就可以看得到，現場也有專人來做這方面的輔導與協助，這些沒有做的，也有相對的處罰，感謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，太好了，謝謝消防署。最後講一下吹哨者保護，因為不管是在其他相關的勞動法令或是任何類型的吹哨者保護，都要提供他們法律上的協助，以防他們因為吹哨反而被清算或者是被找碴，這個保護是非常重要的，所以，我也希望在這邊的舉發人，也應該要予以不管是法律的協助，或者是給予他們一些鼓勵，這方面的保護是不是也在這一次的修法中，我們把它放進去呢？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，我們的用語原來是「行為人」，現在修正成「工作者」，相關的人員都包括在裡面，這個條文在……"],["黃委員捷：是，就是等於可以舉發的範圍變大了嘛。"],["蕭署長煥章：對。"],["黃委員捷：相關的人不會說很明確地、很容易就成為被針對的對象。"],["蕭署長煥章：對。"],["黃委員捷：希望不只是把這個放進去，還有給他們必要的法律協助以及最基本的保護層，這些都應該要做到，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好。謝謝部長，謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","下一位請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":5.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.58284375,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.80034375,"end":106.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.38971875,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.59471875,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.03346875,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.40721875,"end":188.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.98034375,"end":202.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.46346875,"end":225.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.25534375,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.51659375000003,"end":216.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.61596875,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.23471875,"end":274.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.39346875,"end":273.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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謝謝主席剛剛其實巧惠委員提到的這個我們高雄也是啦我相信部長自己很清楚高雄我們服務的人口比跟範圍面積比都是最大的因為高雄是六都裡面面積最大的沒錯 所以其實高雄的這個消防員的工作真的是非常辛苦在這邊也要幫他們爭取一下了相信部長也很清楚"},{"start":27.27,"end":30.452,"text":"那首先我還是要譴責一下在這邊譴責一下國民黨啦為什麼咧因為其實剛剛我們朝委也有講到了今天其實最重要的是要把我們消防法的審查開始進行然後希望這兩天目標本來是這兩天要審查完畢結果沒有想到國民黨團竟然拒簽這個不同意附議書喔讓我是非常驚訝我也覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":53.769,"end":55.43,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":83.992,"end":106.508,"text":"其實我認為今天非常重要的還是職安專章啦那前面我們講一下資訊權的部分首先請教一下部長因為其實在2018年那時候進棚大火之後其實針對資訊權有非常大幅的檢討因為這個真的非常非常重要因為當時的這個悲劇是六位消防員殉職現在想起來心還是很痛"},{"start":107.969,"end":133.949,"text":"我覺得最重要的其實當時有兩個問題一個是當時的圖資並沒有及時的更新那時候包括說他們手邊拿到只有最基礎的消防設備的資訊那像是危險物品怎麼擺放然後逃生出口以及工廠的機台等等這些那時候都是因為沒有辦法及時的取得然後釀成悲劇然後就會增加救災的難度跟迷航的風險"},{"start":134.93,"end":155.147,"text":"另外一個我覺得很重要的就是專人在現場的協助,就是只有他們自己熟悉地形的專人在現場,才有辦法立即的協助救災的指揮官,然後可以及時的告知這些搶救的資訊。所以後來其實我們消防法有做第一次的修正,就是在21條之一,針對這兩個重點先進行補強了。"},{"start":158.65,"end":176.395,"text":"後來其實就我所知,內政部其實也針對這兩大問題有給予非常大力的修正。那我想問一下說,後來我們消防署自己做的努力有哪些呢?可不可以大致跟大家講一下?我先跟黃委員報告一下。"},{"start":176.735,"end":181.339,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":202.598,"end":203.458,"text":"五、審查委員黃瑋園等17人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":225.786,"end":241.377,"text":"好 太好了 謝謝部長那再來我請教一下消防署比較細節的部分因為其實就我所知你們現在也有把這個危害辨識卡把所有不管跟經濟部那邊要的資訊跟所有部會要的資訊都統一的說要揭示在這個危害辨識卡上面"},{"start":242.998,"end":258.233,"text":"那因為你們也有定一個說到2025年底要進行一個計劃就是要推動說所有的工廠企業都應該要有這樣的辨識卡嗎?那我想問一下說現在這個有沒有掌握說到底有哪些多少比例的工廠已經有把這個危害辨識卡都已經準備完畢了呢?"},{"start":262.264,"end":265.068,"text":"報告委員,H卡目前已經宣導到17845家,就針對危害辨識卡怎麼用、怎麼建設,那這些資料也用在話語捲語上面。還有多少要努力啦?應該這樣問。"},{"start":278.398,"end":292.794,"text":"這個部分我們在整個統計以後我們在查閱還沒做到的目前就朝向這個目標因為目前剛才部長有提到過這些資訊都放在化學院上面那我們在派遣的時候這個資訊也通知在派遣上面會出現出來"},{"start":294.111,"end":304.557,"text":"是用不同的方法來達成我們期待的一個目標。是啦,那當然我的最終的目標還是希望不是只有勸導或者是說只是跟他們講醫生說你們要有這個危害辨識卡喔而是他們應該要強制的知道自己有這樣的責任跟義務這些東西都是必須要準備好的這個只是準備的基本而不是說跟他勸戒之後他才勉強的說對我們口頭上有告知啊"},{"start":322.808,"end":351.35,"text":"所以我覺得最重要的是接下來的救災資訊應該要入法那我也想要誠摯的建議在我的版本裡面我把這個危害辨識卡要放在一個具體的地方然後每個工廠都應該要標示把它入法了那這個其實也是你們在在這個推動的計畫裡面有建議的就是說不管是放在執事室或者說他們的警衛室都有一個具體的地方明確的地方是必須要放置這些資訊的"},{"start":352.811,"end":364.346,"text":"那我也希望說接下來是不是也把他入法讓他有一個更明確的規範然後告知說沒有放的話你是需要被開罰的這樣大家才會有警惕才知道說這個是他們真的應該要盡到的義務是"},{"start":368.371,"end":385.01,"text":"感謝委員,委員的版本也有類似這個條文,那我們行政院版也有把這個條文列進去,期待是放在明顯一看的地方,然後我消防軍員到現場就在那個可以看得到,那現場也有專人來做這方面輔導,那協助,那這些沒有做的也有相對的處罰。"},{"start":385.751,"end":402.642,"text":"好,太好了。好,謝謝消防署。最後講一下這個吹哨者保護,因為其實不管是在其他的相關的勞動的法令或是任何的類型的吹哨者保護,其實都是要必要的提供他們不管是法律上的協助,以防說他們因為吹哨,然後反而被清算或者是說被找查,這個保護是非常重要的。"},{"start":410.447,"end":430.418,"text":"所以我也希望說在這邊的舉發人也應該要予以不管是法律的協助或者是給予他們一些鼓勵,這方面的保護是不是也在這一次的修法中我們把它放進去呢?是我們的工作,原來是嫌疑人現在修正成工作者,相關人員都包括在裡面。是,就是等於是可以舉發的範圍變大了嘛。對,相關的人不會說就是很明確的說很容易被針對的對象。"},{"start":437.759,"end":444.566,"text":"希望不只是這個放進去,還有他們必要的法律的協助以及他們最基本的保護層,這個都應該要做到好嗎?"}]}},{"id":"154248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1f746fc48b78a6ad168d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9c4e37c6878221182e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:19:56 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09:28:02","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:19:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:28:02+08:00","duration":486,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時20分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：蘇委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長早。部長，4+2，我們快快了啦！"],["劉部長世芳：好，沒問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：今天修正消防法主要是希望給消防員最大的安全保障再提升，因為近十年來大概有32位弟兄不幸因公殉職，所以我們就直接問部長，今天修這部消防法，我們可以解決哪些問題？主要的面向你覺得是哪些？"],["劉部長世芳：我們剛剛在簡單的報告裡面有提到，第一個，我們當然對工廠的管理要加強，也就是工廠不要……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，等於是對民間工廠。"],["劉部長世芳：不要把防火的社會成本轉嫁給社會，應該自行管理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["劉部長世芳：第二個，職安專章的部分就是保障我們的消防人員，第一線去救災的時候有更好的設備、設施來幫忙，再來是有吹哨者條款。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，所以部長，我跟你的認知完全一樣，這次的修法就是打造安全的環境，但是最重要從兩個層面，一個是強化企業，剛剛您說工廠，我把它定義得比工廠更寬廣，我認為應該是強化企業對災害自主風險管理責任；第二個是增訂消防人員安全衛生防護專章。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：就這兩個面向來講，我想請問部長，第一個，我們對於受影響的業者，也就是企業，我們現在給它保障沒有錯，但是在這個過程當中一定也加重它的一些負擔，不管是行政上或是任何採取的措施上，總之應該是義務和權利兩者兼具。所以在經濟部的部分，我們看到工廠輔導管理法上個月剛剛通過的狀況，他們下鄉開了二十幾場說明會，其實今天我們的法定下去之後，如果能順利通過，對企業的規範也有相當的變革，不曉得內政部有沒有安排對企業、工廠等等做說明管理？我覺得是可以的，你們有計畫嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝蘇委員的指教，我想非常的重要，未來如果法令三讀通過之後，我們會跟經濟部配合，尤其對於工業區……"],["蘇委員巧慧：真的非常有需要。"],["劉部長世芳：不管大型的、中小企業聚集的地方，我們會做宣導。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為這次管理規則的變動其實蠻細的。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且罰則是加重的，我看工廠管理輔導法，他們是在修法前就已經開始去說明，同時也等於蒐集意見，修法完成之後有更多的說明會、二十幾場，其實持續蠻長的時間，我在這邊非常嚴正的希望內政部消防署就這件事情，你要配合也好、你要開專場也好，我認為應該要下去說明。"],["劉部長世芳：我想沒有問題，我們會同步舉行。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以這是第一個部分。第二個，剛剛既然說到消防弟兄的部分，我們其實是要給他更多的保障，可是老實說，從法條文字上面來講，雖然大家知道得到保障，但其實也加重他非常多的行政負擔，我必須坦白說。比如叫他填寫報告也好、叫他去做健檢也好、叫他去加強訓練也好，這些都是應該做的，本席都支持、本席都支持！但是消防弟兄的勤務本來就已經很繁重了，這些行政加上去會不會成為負擔？"],["劉部長世芳：我想跟委員報告一下，如果是針對消防人員自己本身的生命安全保障，這對他是好的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：當然。"],["劉部長世芳：但在這之前很多的準備工作，如果是行政上不必要的負擔，我們會在內部討論的時候想辦法把它消除掉，不要增加行政上的負擔。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，我覺得以這件事情來講，尤其是剛剛那個消防專章下去以後，應該叫做立意良善，但是我考慮的是行政負擔會不會加重，這點我覺得消防署在最後細部的管理、審查、考核、稽核的狀況下應該要做……"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員這麼關心。事實上，剛剛委員提到的沒錯，除了法律面以外，執行面很重要。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，執行面。"],["蕭署長煥章：我們也很感謝院裡面核定我們職業的中程計畫，未來五年中央會有輔導團隊，每個地方縣市政府就跟深耕計畫一樣有個別的輔導團隊，不是強制性你要怎麼做，而是有專業團隊的精神跟輔導，讓我們的方向能走到……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個我都知道，老實說。所以我就定調你叫做立意良善嘛！然後該不該做？我也認為應該做，所以這次要不要入法？我也支持，我都支持了！"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但光是行政作業，這一定又是加重了，老實講就是這樣。因為現在的狀況是什麼？現在其實就是消防人力有所不足，所以在最後的時間，我也跟部長和署長再探討一下，我們現在一直在說消防人力短缺，部長，我也看到了，消防署現在包括考試的專科比重的計分有重新做了一個調整，才不會說我需要一千多人，報考者有一千多甚至是兩千人，到考者也超過我需要的人數，我想起來那個數字了，我需要九百多人，結果報考的是一千九百多人，到考是一千五百多人，但最後錄取只有三百人啊，對不對？是這樣的狀況嘛，因為這個數字你們做了調整，對於這個部分，我也覺得支持，可是還有沒有其他的問題？我這樣去看資料以後，我會發現有一個狀況，部長，不曉得您有沒有注意到，就是我們有編制員額，但因為消防還不是一條鞭，所以各縣市有各縣市的作法，所以在編制員額之後，會有預算員額，你有沒有去看過六都的狀況？部長，我在這邊把數字列出來了，請你看看，其實我不太能夠理解，六都的數字這樣列下來，為什麼我們新北市的預算員額的比例是六都裡面最少的？甚至不到八成，只有76%啊，規定新北市的編制可以有3,500人，可是新北市所編的預算員額只有2,686人，在這第一關就已經卡關了啊！署長，你怎麼看？你知道這個消息嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，瞭解，感謝委員。我們兩個部分來進行，地方政府怎麼增加它的預算員額跟編制員額，這個地方政府也同步在進行。第二個部分就是地方政府也許認為我們訓練不夠，剛剛委員提到的，外軌的特考班是1,000名，正取的學生已經擴充到400位，也就是未來每一年會有1,400位的學生，對於……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，可是中央這邊再怎麼放寬考試狀況、調整狀況，你讓人考上去了，如果地方政府不編員額，就還是一樣不足啊！所以我會認為這個地方其實中央主管機應該要下去看看這個問題到底是在哪裡啊！"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝蘇委員的提醒，我想預算員額要跟著編制員額一起來編，這個部分我們會來做協調……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對！你應該去看地方政府嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我瞭解，未來如果新的消防人員有編制到各縣市地方政府，尤其是六都的時候，我們要求他們的預算員額要跟進。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們現在看到，尤其是本席的新北市，跟我們主席一樣嘛，我們新北市一個消防人員要服務一千六百多位市民，這其實是六都最高，我們的比例是最少。我回去看，因為我們本來就是看新北市政府的新聞稿，它都是說我有一直在加人、我好棒、我還要跟中央要求，可是我們看到預算員額其實就是不足，我現在就想知道中央對這樣的態度到底是有沒有可以……"],["劉部長世芳：我們希望它能夠按照原來的編制員額去補足預算……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，那如果是預算需要中央鼎力支持，本席來自新北市嘛，主席也是啊，我想我們也希望中央能夠在這個地方為我們做更多的支持啦，畢竟生命來說，國人是大家一體的。"],["劉部長世芳：對，我們全力配合。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員的質詢，謝謝。","下一位請黃捷委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":2.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.45659375,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.742218750000003,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.61971875,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.26909375,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.67409375,"end":15.8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«消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":115.458,"end":116.099,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具 «消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":133.592,"end":135.815,"text":"謝謝蘇委員的指教,我想非常的重要,我們未來如果法令三讀通過之後,我們會跟經濟部配合,尤其對於工業區,不管大型的、中小企業聚集的地方,我們會做宣導。因為這次的管理規則的變動其實蠻細的,"},{"start":149.415,"end":156.68,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":178.573,"end":205.536,"text":"好 所以這是第一個部分那第二個部分呢剛剛既然說到消防弟兄的部分了那我們其實是要給他更多的保障可是老實說你從法條文字上面來講大家雖然知道是得到的保障但是其實也加重他非常多的等於是行政負擔啦我必須坦白說啦因為比如說叫他填寫報告也好叫他去做健檢也好叫他去加強訓練也好這些都是應該做的本席都支持本席都支持"},{"start":206.016,"end":221.422,"text":"但是消防弟兄的勤務本來就已經很繁重了,這些負擔行政加上去,這些行政加上去會不會成為負擔?我想跟委員報告一下,如果他是對消防人員自己本身的生命安全保障的話,這對他是好的。"},{"start":222.602,"end":223.663,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":249.565,"end":263.132,"text":"感謝委員這麼關心事實上剛剛委員提到沒錯就是除了法律面以外事實上執行面很重要我們也很感謝院裡面也核定我們職業的忠誠計劃未來五年中央會有輔導團隊地方每個縣市政府就跟深耕計劃一樣有個別有輔導團隊不是說強制性你要怎麼做而是有專業團隊的精神跟輔導讓"},{"start":276.3,"end":288.395,"text":"所以我就定調你叫做利益良善嘛然後該不該做我也應該做所以這次要不要入法我也支持我都支持了但是光是行政作業這就是一定又是加重了啦老實講就是這樣因為現在的狀況是什麼現在其實就是消防人力其實有不足啦不足"},{"start":293.621,"end":307.914,"text":"所以在最後的時間我也跟部長和署長這邊再探討一下我們現在一直在說消防人力短缺這部分那部長我也看到了消防署現在包括這個考試的這個專科比重的計分他重新做了一個調整"},{"start":308.655,"end":310.116,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":326.101,"end":326.982,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":356.641,"end":362.646,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":381.199,"end":396.007,"text":"這第一關就已經卡關了啊!署長你怎麼看?你知道這個消息嗎?是,了解感恩委員。我們兩個部分來進行。地方政府怎麼增加它的預算源額跟配置源額,這個地方政府也同步在進行。那第二部分就是,地方政府也許認為說我們訓練不夠,那目前我們剛剛委員提到的,"},{"start":399.488,"end":402.09,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":417.902,"end":439.252,"text":"所以我會認為這個地方其實中央主管機關應該要下去看看這個問題到底是在哪裡。謝謝蘇委員的提醒。我想我們會預算原額要跟著編制原額一起來編。你應該去看地方政府嘛。我了解。未來我們如果有新的消防人員有編制到各縣市地方政府,尤其是六度的時候,我們要求他們的預算原額要跟進。"},{"start":439.972,"end":465.745,"text":"我們現在看到尤其是本席新北市跟我們主席一樣我們新北市一個消防人員服務1600多位市民這其實是六都最高那我們的比例是最少那我回去看因為我們本來就是看那個新北市政府的新聞稿他都是說我一直在加人啊我好棒啊我還要跟中央要求可是我們來看預算原額其實他就不足那我現在就想知道中央對這樣的態度到底是有沒有可以我們希望他能夠按照原來的編制原額把它補足預算那如果"},{"start":468.706,"end":469.487,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"}]}},{"id":"154247","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154247","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd19c584c28eb73d75ac258fa09de8d0f303176ac657cb8ac9c0fd4b0f6903ffae55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:45:48 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邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.82659375,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.47159375,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.22221875,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.78721875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.54659375,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.94721875,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.976593750000003,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.57971875,"end":26.727218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.65534375,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.50721875,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.83596875,"end":33.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.62034375,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.83909375,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.712218750000005,"end":49.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.369093750000005,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.516593750000006,"end":52.697843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.45721875,"end":57.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.55784375,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.40034375,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.60221875,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.48784375000001,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.79534375,"end":80.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.50346875000001,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.43971875000001,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.52721875,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.99909375,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.39971875,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.36471875000001,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.60909375,"end":107.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.75534375000001,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.63221875,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.16784375,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.63159375000001,"end":146.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.83096875,"end":148.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.56471875,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.38284375,"end":153.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.49221875,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.72221875000002,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.13971875000001,"end":173.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.15659375,"end":168.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.26596875,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.33721875,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.64096875,"end":173.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.55409375000002,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.25846875000002,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.01784375000003,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.08096875,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.80221875,"end":229.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.94034375,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.22284375,"end":203.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.78909375,"end":226.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.80534375000002,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.96409375000002,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.57784375000003,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.56471875,"end":257.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.72909375,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.42096875000004,"end":258.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.48846875000004,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.97784375000003,"end":259.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.28159375,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.47846875,"end":270.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.02471875000003,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.35784375000003,"end":284.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.69096875,"end":287.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.51721875000004,"end":295.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.56784375,"end":290.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.87159375000005,"end"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這個還帶審議那個已經送來立院了已經送來立法院現在就是還上帶大院審議我們要快速 要加速審查因為立法院議程很多所以我們希望能夠有機會派上 謝謝我們大家一起努力盡快讓這一千億能夠通過好 那個台堂那個楊董事長一樣問題請教您"},{"start":431.588,"end":449.366,"text":"謝謝委員大概基本上我們國營事業的內部問題大概都是差不多一個是同仁的一個是心態我是感覺我來台堂大概一年多我覺得是心態方面在內部方面大家要一個調整心態要怎麼調配基本上是這樣國營事業當然有它的保障"},{"start":453.951,"end":480.314,"text":"那一方面國營事業有類似公務人員的一個保障但是以台糖來說在外部上面台糖的300多個品項全部都要跟外部做競爭跟油、電水是不一樣所以我們台糖的同仁在這一方面基本上在這一方面也表現得相當的還可以表現在這個獲利方面"},{"start":481.535,"end":482.196,"text":"外部的威脅有哪些?"},{"start":503.992,"end":525.11,"text":"基本上啦就是我常說台糖在12級產業做得非常好但是在外部上面我們就比不上所謂的第三級行銷方面在外部要跟大家做競爭一定要有一個行銷但是行銷需要編列的這個費用費用的話你投入的費用沒有產出一定的效能"},{"start":526.089,"end":528.43,"text":"最後請台水理事長趕快問大家請稿"},{"start":552.819,"end":569.92,"text":"謝謝委員指導,那開水公司大概我們也自己經常在做SWAT分析,那水公司的一些優勢最主要我們全省各個官網都有聯通在一起,可以相互做一些支援調度,那因為"},{"start":571.161,"end":597.843,"text":"水公司我們有很多的專業就是水處理或是自來水工程的專業的人才在我們水公司因為畢竟是我們國內也是最大的一個自來水事業所以相關的我們有很多的廠商可以從而做利用那另外在類似的部分大概我們就是有一些管線比較老舊的問題可能大菸這邊也經常在關切"},{"start":599.364,"end":624.209,"text":"我們就漏水利的問題那另外我們還有一些很重要的一些大口徑的管線還沒有那太細節不用講就整體鏡面那你未來碰到了哪些機會有哪些的威脅機會的部分大概就是因為水資源越來越受重視越來越受重視那另外我們也去討論到說AI智慧的這個區塊"},{"start":626.109,"end":642.243,"text":"進步很快速或許我們可以導入一些的這些科技來加強我們的管理那我們也是注意到我們公司的一個體質就是最近可能也是極端氣候影響可能孤寒的議題或是說有一些停塞的議題"},{"start":643.263,"end":667.608,"text":"市委董事長都在就是說如何把內部的這個所面對的環境把它這個優勢把它強化把它這個相對劣勢把它縮小把外部的機會把它擴大多元化這個威脅降低這是大家共同的責任那連市長你都聽到了市委董事長他們都有提出他們相關的看法那最後這個30秒我跟市長講就是說"},{"start":670.39,"end":670.75,"text":"議員：邱志偉"},{"start":691.505,"end":712.852,"text":"這個一定有相關的原因出現 相關造成這個原因是哪 是什麼原因 針對這個問題能夠提出解決方案 最起碼讓女性在職場 在國營事業特別是台電中油的職場能夠維持這個比較高的一個比例 可能有相關法律的限制讓他們這個比例沒有辦法提升 跟國際同業來比較"},{"start":715.388,"end":715.688,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":733.098,"end":761.347,"text":"我覺得國營事業是可以就那個不同的那個那個職系或職位我把這個問題這個點出來的但是你要尊重這個問題我再跟他們提高理性的那個員工比例也請也拜託這個四位董事長針對我今天所提的SWAT的問題是不是有一個書面資料因為執行時間太短沒有辦法這個講得非常清楚是不是有個書面資料提供給給我那我針對你們提出的這個SWAT的分析我們再來做一些討論"},{"start":763.983,"end":764.244,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154246","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1a08c8dac4d675a54309e96bb53525717ee23585586e40b3a814ceb732740f6fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:39:13 - 10:51:45","影片長度":"00:12:32","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:39:13+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:51:45+08:00","duration":752,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":29,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-29"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":343,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時39分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，這一次的漢光演習有沒有規劃在漢光演習執行過程當中，同時有共軍不管是共艦、共機擾臺，這個時候的protocol或者對應的準則，有沒有先做好準備，避免情勢升溫這樣的狀況？是不是可以請部長簡單回應一下？"],["顧部長立雄：我想就共軍可能擾臺的部分，都在我們的聯合情監偵監視的範圍之內，所以我們會一直持續、充分地掌握，然後適切地對應，包括在空的訓練機、戰鬥巡邏機等等，對已經在那邊的船艦，我們都會做一個監控。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我的意思是因為在漢光演習，演習視同作戰，這個時候是長時間、高強度，我們的國軍不管是陸、海、空都處於這種最高強度的狀況之下，在這一種的壓力之下，如果同時遇到中共還是一樣大規模的侵擾我國的話，我們可能會需要一個更完整的對應準則，因為一不小心、一個閃失，就有可能造成情勢升級，所以我想知道在演習時，同時發生了這樣的狀況，我們的應處是跟過去一樣，還是會有一些特別的調整？"],["顧部長立雄：我的理解是，如果是屬於警戒戰備維持的部分，是不會參與漢光演習的部隊，所以我們還是維持一定的兵力跟數量，特別是海、空軍的部分，來掌握敵情的狀況應對，所以應該不至於如您講的會發生衝突升高的可能性。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以演訓的部隊跟過去我們實質上掌控的大概是分離開來就對了？"],["顧部長立雄：對！"],["陳委員冠廷：OK。"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們講的所有部隊，不是講所有的、全部的部隊，可能有的正好在做相關的警戒，或者是剛好在測考等等的，這些還是會維持住，相關的部隊都出去，就是運用我們可以運用的兵力，以最大化來做這樣子。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。針對今年所有由國防部釋放出來的資訊，我們來做一個比較，之前臺灣的一些國防相關安全研究雜誌都有將這一些數據或把這一個軌跡進行統整，我們可以看到範圍跟接近臺灣領空、領海的狀況是越來越接近、越來越頻繁，最近的距離是到臺灣本島31浬，我們強調這件事情是因為我必須說，國防部在社群媒體把這些訊息釋放出來是非常正確的作法，我們是希望未來不僅要做，而且可以更頻繁，如果在不違反國家安全的狀況之下，可以把掌控的情資更大地揭露出去，給所有國際的媒體跟國際的研究、智庫來使用。我為什麼再次強調這件事情？因為在許多的聽證會或者是我們接觸國會議員時，他們都一直在強調臺灣面臨的威脅，需要更加視覺化的呈現給美國公眾，或者是其他的利害相關者，因為只有視覺化，我們才知道威脅到底在哪裡，所以從陸、海、空，包括周邊空域的活動示意圖，我覺得這就是一個很好的方式。過去特別是把機型全部都有揭露，據我上次來質詢國防部邱部長的時候，他是說因為太多了，所以就不方便全部再做出來，我覺得是可以適時地調整，對於國內、外智庫做研究的時候，或者是未來做戰略上面的警示時，我覺得會有更大的幫助，不知道部長你們怎麼看這部分？還是覺得有不同的意見？"],["顧部長立雄：我先請情次室來回答一下他們的concern。"],["顏次長有賢：委員好，我是情次室次長。當然委員提到這一段是我們常時間在做的，每天早上都會公布整個海空的動態，事實上我們調整的時候，包含委員提到的，我們之前公布包含它的機型、數量，甚至從哪個地方、在哪個地方做活動，但是我們通盤考量之後，因為敵情的威脅是多變的、多元化的，很多情資來源等等也因為在我們公布了之後，不管是對岸也好，甚至我們友盟國家也好，給我們的一些情資、警訊告訴我們，畢竟臺海周邊的情勢威脅是越來越多元，如果我們公布的太透明化，反而會讓對方知道我們的一些偵蒐手段跟偵蒐能力。"],["陳委員冠廷：知道我們知道什麼，然後……"],["顏次長有賢：對！所以我們稍微做一個比較通盤性的考量，有一個侷限性，把這些數據讓大家知道。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，沒問題，這個也是一個作法，未來可以參考將這些示意圖以更視覺化的方式做出來，讓我們作為國會議員到其他國家在講中共對臺的威脅時，可以展示出來，用更視覺化、更快速、更直覺的方式……"],["顧部長立雄：事實上我在國安會以及到國防部之後，就這個部分我都希望有一些檢討，我們再來檢討看看，因為情次室是顧慮到我們的偵蒐手段會因此有一些洩漏，我們可能還要再研析一下。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒問題，這之間的平衡怎麼抓，我想還是要總體地考量，就是在資訊透明跟資訊保防上都要並重，所以可以理解，那也尊重……"],["顧部長立雄：因為資訊揭露有助於我們跟國際之間的戰略溝通。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以怎麼樣去找其中的平衡，再麻煩大家思考一下。國防及外交委員會的委員同時是國防，也是外交的委員，我們在外交場合上面，面對不同的智庫也會講這些事情。","接下來，就是想請教一下關於侵擾的部分，我看到華盛頓郵報的報導，美軍為了防止中共犯臺，在中共艦隊要入侵的時候，美軍說會在臺海部署數千艘的無人艦艇、無人水面艦艇、還有空中無人機等等，我想請教一下國防部的這些同仁，我們有沒有足夠的數量來去面對？因為根據英國國防安全智庫皇家聯合研究所的報告，提到烏克蘭每月在戰場上面損失大概是一萬架無人機，有些是高價值的無人機，有些是比較平價、小型的無人機，當然價值或者數量不能夠用這樣子直接換算，但是我想透過發展無人機去減低傳統兵力的損失，當然是非常重要，我想知道目前大家怎麼估計？我們的庫存是否足夠？我們自製率是否足夠？採購量是否足夠？"],["顧部長立雄：我個人認為是不足夠，所以我們要建立自主產能來有效地應對，還要引進AI的系統建立敵我識別，也就是我們的面積狹隘，很多的無人機在上面的話，那要建立敵我識別、要建立擊殺鏈等等，這些都需要靠AI的輔助。在無人機部分的發展，我想日新月異，我們需要有更多、多元的方式，不管是結合到進行截擊，在海上的階段或甚至在灘岸的階段，我們都要運用各種不同型態的無人機，這個部分屬於不對稱作戰裡面很重要的一環，就像您講的，無人機的耗量是相當地大，我們也很希望能夠建立自主產量。"],["陳委員冠廷：我還是強調自主跟對外採購不會互相矛盾啦……"],["顧部長立雄：對！我們現在是並行。"],["陳委員冠廷：當然這樣看起來在烏克蘭實戰上面的運用，或者是其他國家，那是非常地明確。另外一個部分，就是臺灣海峽我們所要布建的，除了潛艦國造之外，在海下的無人載具跟海面上的載具，最近美軍也有一些新的建置，這部分我們比較少看到，畢竟它如果是在海下的話，也很難去觀摩，這個部分你們大體上面的規劃是什麼？有足夠的量能嗎？國家有合格的國防產業鏈可以做到這些海下載具嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能這樣跟委員報告，這是我們未來不對稱建軍的一個重點，我們會跟印太司令部持續交流，持續地發展這部分，如您剛剛講的，不管是空中的、水面的、跟水下的這些運用，跟如何來進行這樣的發展。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後一個，也不是質詢，算是一個statement，在我們嘉義縣溪口國中，其實從國中、國小就有很多，其實他們的一些社團活動就有包含無人機的操作，未來我們民雄航太園區，這一些飛手從國中時期就培養很好的空間感，我認為經過培訓之後，他可以再進入這些國防產業鏈，他應該受到更大的重視，這是除了教育部來投入資源之外，因為通常我們在國內的這些設備的購置、競賽的購置，都還是要跟教育部爭取資源，可是這其實跟國防產業也是有關聯的，所以這部分如果可以的話，我們是希望國防部也可以納入考量，從國中、高中這一些小型的飛手，我們看到在烏克蘭很多他根本沒有任何軍事的經驗，直接就被徵召，在市區外來去殲滅敵人，我認為這些都是可以考慮的。再來就是跟國防比較沒有直接，在農業上面其實有很多在使用無人機操作的，這些其實都是很穩定的未來的一些具備產業潛力的人才，我們希望說未來不管是在換照、考照，駕照是很長的一段時間才換，我們希望考照、換照的頻率，可以像駕照一樣不要這麼頻繁地去擾民，讓更多人、更多不同的方面、產業都可以來進入無人機產業、來進入無人機的領域，好，謝謝，謝謝部長、謝謝各位。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員仁代）：謝謝陳冠廷委員發言。","然後接下來由馬文君委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-29","speakers":["馬文君","賴士葆","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","黃國昌","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","林憶君","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢；二、審查\n本院委員馬文君等 21 人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨\n團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.48971875,"end":8.316593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.95659375,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.20534375,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.99909375,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.14471875,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.58096875000001,"end":72.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.54284375,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.14096875,"end":80.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.16596875,"end":118.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.98284375,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.41534375,"end":148.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.64909375000002,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.71534375000002,"end":162.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.50346875,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.85409375,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.97596875000002,"end":189.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.65096875,"end":209.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.34409375,"end":219.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.67596875,"end":246.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.08096875,"end":257.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.53909375,"end":263.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.25971875,"end":265.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.57596875,"end":307.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.99971875,"end":315.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.47096875,"end":318.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.42846875000004,"end":350.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.20784375,"end":326.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.47784375000003,"end":326.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.04784375,"end":363.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.11784375,"end":364.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.40034375000005,"end":370.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.78784375000004,"end":367.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.86784375,"end":369.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.11659375000005,"end":373.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.67721875,"end":386.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.36721875,"end":386.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.48534375,"end":388.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.53596875000005,"end":406.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.24596875000003,"end":411.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.39284375000005,"end":418.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.26534375,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.33659375,"end":420.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.55159375000005,"end":441.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.32471875000005,"end":446.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.32409375000003,"end":483.04409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.09471875,"end":483.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.42784375,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.19784375,"end":512.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.03096875,"end":513.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.68909375,"end":531.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.9309687500001,"end":538.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.9678437499999,"end":546.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.4097187500001,"end":564.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.17471875,"end":571.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.40596875,"end":572.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.60409375,"end":603.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.3078437500001,"end":611.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.79721875,"end":605.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.0872187500001,"end":635.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.48846875,"end":639.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.96471875,"end":661.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.18909375,"end":673.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.90034375,"end":689.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.8303437500001,"end":723.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.49596875,"end":744.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.134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10:50:13","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:38:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:50:13+08:00","duration":675,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":325,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時39分）謝謝主席，有請教育部部長備詢。"],["主席：好，部長，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長早安。依據媒體報導指出，2020年的國、高中及大專院校的自殺通報人數是2016年的6倍到9倍不等，國小甚至高達10倍，社會變遷非常地快速，科技也一直在變化，學生、學童的壓力持續有各種不同新的樣態。本席先前有跟部長您提到，教育部應該要就AI霸凌或者新型態的虛擬霸凌樣態做各種輔導的機制，協助第一線的人員有足夠的知能來瞭解、同理，並輔導遭遇到這種情況的學生。","這一次學生輔導法的修正，各個版本都希望能夠回應實務現場的需要，本席草案的第十一條是希望擴張專任專業輔導人員的數量，但是教育部卻跟我們說明，如果這樣修，可能會增加3到6億，恐怕有經費的困難。先不論經費困境的合理性，但終究資源有限，我們還是要設法接住每一個孩子才是關鍵，因此如何善用其他的機制就是我們要一起努力的方向，尤其善用科技的力量就是一個好方法。","請教一下部長，您覺得AI可以用來作為協助學生輔導的工具嗎？您認為可以怎麼運用AI來協助學生輔導？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實這個部分我是比較生疏，但是從AI怎麼樣去瞭解到學生許多的問題樣態，能夠提供我們專業老師的輔導介入，我想這是可以使用的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想我們做監督、制衡，也是要來協作，我已經幫你們都整理好了，這是一篇2017年的研究，史丹佛大學開發Woebot聊天機器人，已經驗證了，一組憂鬱症的學生如果去讀治療憂鬱症的電子書，相比起跟人工智慧機器人Woebot聊天，兩個星期以後，Woebot組的學生症狀明顯減輕。2022年11月ChatGPT又橫空出世，今年5月又發行新的版本，事實上有越來越多新的方法可以協助我們來幫助學生。","我們來看英國，就有醫療單位是使用AI機器人作為求助者的檢傷分類工具，由AI來幫忙判斷求助者是否需要緊急協助，或是需要提供心理治療等建議，注意AI在這裡的角色，就像是一個虛擬助手，而不是一個虛擬心理師，它只是做協助的。另外一個案例，根據2023年在Nature底下的Translational Psychiatry期刊也指出，使用人工智慧語音助手來進行心理治療，患者的憂鬱和焦慮症狀可以獲得改善。","我們再來看一下今年2月最新的研究發表，自COVID-19以來，英國民眾對於心理健康的服務需求持續提升，所以有公司開發聊天機器人，運用AI提供民眾具有同理心的回應和鼓勵，透過聊天的資訊，機器人也協助轉介民眾到需要的心理醫療服務，以該研究顯示，這個AI Bot已經幫助了22萬名的病患完成轉診。請教部長，您剛剛說您不是很瞭解，但是我想再次確認，以您的瞭解，目前國內有沒有將AI運用在學生輔導工作的相關研究或嘗試？"],["鄭部長英耀：就教育的現場，我想是沒有的，但是委員剛才所提供的，確實我覺得那是非常好的一個輔助方式，它不僅是用來對學生，也包括對老人的一個照護，我想它都變成是一個非常好的陪伴者。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，謝謝部長，非常open minded，我可以提供給您，彰師大有嘗試採取「大數據分析輔助大學輔導模式」的建置規劃，並且在2023年將相關的研究成果發表在相關的心理學期刊，我們已經有不只一所學校在嘗試，希望教育部能夠進一步瞭解，並且擴大辦理，瞭解可行的方案。請教部長，教育部有沒有可能來投入一些經費？既然您剛剛都非常open minded，能不能積極嘗試科技導入，或者將AI科技導入學生輔導的工作，藉此找到協助學生輔導的新工作模式？"],["鄭部長英耀：我覺得這是一個值得嘗試的方式，在對學生輔導支持的網絡跟各式策略的介入，有一些結合新科技，我相信也符合現在年輕人他們許多的生活樣態跟學習樣態。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長，能不能請教育部在3個月內研議試辦計畫，並提供書面報告給本席辦公室？"],["鄭部長英耀：這我們來努力。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。上次輔導法的公聽會，有非常多與會者都提到關於專輔人員行政工作負擔過重的問題，我們也希望運用科技來幫忙。","另外，最近正值大專院校的期末，前幾天有媒體報導，北部一所國立大學有學生收到疑似校務行政人員發出的訊息，稱學生該學期有二分之一的學分不及格，將被勒令退學，要求學生點選連結，幸好學生機警沒有點選，轉而向校方求證，確認以後是詐騙訊息。類似的詐騙方式不僅發生在國立大學，我們也看到私立大學的學生接到詐騙簡訊。請問部長，教育部目前有沒有著手調查這個事件的前因後果，包含詐騙集團究竟如何取得學生的個資跟聯繫方式？目前到底有多少學校、多少名學生接獲類似的詐騙簡訊？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實不同的教育階段有不同的詐騙……"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有調查這個案子？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們隨時都有通報系統，對這樣的訊息，我們隨時都有掌握。"],["葛委員如鈞：請問這個專案知不知道？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個知道。"],["葛委員如鈞：有學生擔心成績快要被二一，然後還要點詐騙連結。如果知道，那調查結果現在怎麼樣，出來了嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，學校這邊查證後，確認個資並沒有外洩的情況。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有關係，希望有相關的調查結果，不是口頭講，希望一個月內以書面提供給本席，可以嗎？因為學生關心自己的成績已經很辛苦了，還要被詐騙。根據媒體報導，這次事件的處理流程是校方接獲通報以後由校方報警，並且通報大專院校北一區學務中心。部長，我查了相關的設置要點，發現學務中心的工作要點只有維護校園安寧等業務，其中並未涵蓋與資安有關的事項，請問剛剛您怎麼確定這不是資安事件呢？"],["吳司長林輝：這個部分是由這一所發現簡訊的學校，他們去檢核他們自己學生資料庫的安全系統。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我想確認一下，為什麼我會特別詢問這件事呢？因為近日學生收到上述的詐騙簡訊有幾個樣態，第一個，剛好收到訊息的學生的學業成績不太理想，你想想看，如果我是第一名，我收到這種簡訊，我還會被騙嗎？肯定不會嘛！第二個，這個詐騙簡訊的連結是「.edu.tw」，這是臺灣某一間大專院校裡面的網站，對這一間大專院校我姑隱其名，因為這不是學校的錯，他們的資安有沒有問題？為什麼剛好就是成績不好的學生收到通報，你們難道都不懷疑嗎？學校說沒有就沒有嗎？我們不需要跟數位部通查一下嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，如果從委員剛才所提的，這確實應該有一些蛛絲馬跡是可以來檢查的。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，學生在校的學習過程、相關資訊都符合個資保護法，而且學生是弱勢，不應該把這種成績不太好的學生剛好收到詐騙集團的簡訊當作巧合，這個有沒有可能涉及校園的資安，應該要好好來保護學生？為什麼我要這樣講呢？我們幫你們整理了相關的數據，在112年全國詐騙案件的數量成長率28.7%，同年度的校園詐騙通報案件數成長率是44%，校園詐騙案件竟然比全國詐騙案件的成長率還要高，被騙者是學生，我們竟然看到還有幼稚園、幼兒園、國小、國中都有，這些數據顯示教育部光是靠學制的詐騙宣導活動可能難以遏止。我想請教一下，在未來我們除了加強宣導以外，還有沒有什麼校園防詐的措施？有沒有辦法跟各個資安單位一起來主動介入協助調查，釐清相關事件有沒有涉及資安？也要請教育部跟數發部應該要積極更經常地來做跨部會的合作，能不能做到？另外，對各校你們都有編列高教深耕預算，裡面有資安經費，對公立大專院校平均補助每所1年100萬，私立大學平均每所94萬，這樣夠嗎？有沒有要提高？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正，我想跟數發部能夠跨部會的合作，然後來確保資訊的安全，這是我們一定都要持續努力的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。"],["鄭部長英耀：至於經費，我們再來瞭解還有沒有一些成長的空間。"],["葛委員如鈞：學生是弱勢，校園也是駭客瞄準的目標，這已經是各國的資安組織所一再警示的，本席也一再的提示，臺灣本來就是資安攻擊的熱區，政府單位尤其教育系統也是受攻擊的高風險單位，我認為除了教育部應該要針對常見的詐騙形式進行更多宣導以外，也期望能夠投入更多的資源，強化校園資安，避免駭客攻入學校的資訊系統，竊取學生個資，甚至影響弱勢的同學，讓他們因此緊張、憂鬱並繳錢，最後反而學生要被輔導，竟然是因為我們資安成效不彰才被詐騙，所以要提升校園的安全，我們一起來努力，不要幫整個詐騙產業助攻，而是要全面的遏止，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝兩位。接下來我們請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 18 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員許智傑等25\n人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生\n輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正\n草案」案；九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審查\n委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具\n「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分\n條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員郭昱晴等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員郭\n國文等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員郭國文等 19 人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條\n文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員萬\n美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條\n及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正\n草案」案；二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十\n五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十六、審查委員林\n月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案(僅進行詢答)","agenda_id":"1136601_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.42659375,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.40909375,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.644718750000003,"end":92.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.88534375,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.97096875000001,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.35346875000002,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.54159375,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.62034375000002,"end":289.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.26409375000003,"end":293.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.16221875,"end":308.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.20221875000004,"end":377.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.75659375000004,"end":383.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.51971875000004,"end":383.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.88659375000003,"end":391.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.04159375,"end":391.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.53096875,"end":392.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.96534375000005,"end":400.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.78784375000004,"end":395.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.59784375000004,"end":395.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.90034375000005,"end":405.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.09409375,"end":411.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.54471875,"end":412.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.96221875000003,"end":444.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.12159375000005,"end":453.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.67721875,"end":483.92159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.37721875000005,"end":495.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.78034375000004,"end":497.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.60721875,"end":501.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.11284375,"end":507.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.44096875,"end":513.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.16596875,"end":605.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.5815937500001,"end":625.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.75596875,"end":674.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.8115937500002,"end":675.53721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.712,"end":9.096,"text":"謝謝主席,有請教育部部長魏群。"},{"start":14.65,"end":36.842,"text":"各位好部長早安依據媒體報導指出2020年的國高中大專院校的自殺通報人數是2016年的6倍到9倍不等國小甚至高達10倍社會的變遷非常的快速科技也一直在變化學生學童的壓力持續的有各種不同新的樣態本席先前有跟部長林提到"},{"start":37.242,"end":66.17,"text":"教育部應該要就AI霸凌或者新型態的虛擬霸凌的樣態做各種輔導的機制協助低限的人員有足夠的知能來了解同理並輔導遭遇到這種情況的學生這一次的學生輔導法的修正各個版本都希望能夠回應實務現場的需要本期草案的第11條是希望擴張專任專業輔導人員的數量但是教育部卻跟我們說明如果這樣修可能會增加3到6億"},{"start":67.23,"end":92.042,"text":"總怕有經費的困難先不論經費困境的合理性但終究資源有限我們還是要設法接觸每個孩子才是關鍵因此如何善用其他的機制就是我們要一起努力的方向尤其善用科技的力量就是一個好方法請教一下部長您覺得AI可以用來作為協助學生輔導的工具嗎你認為可以怎麼運用AI來協助學生輔導"},{"start":96.61,"end":114.041,"text":"確實這個部分我是比較生疏,但是從AI怎麼樣去了解到這個學生的許多的這些問題的樣態,能夠提供我們這個專業老師的一些這個輔導的一個介入,我想這是可以使用的。"},{"start":114.201,"end":127.286,"text":"我想我們做監督智衡也是要來協作我已經幫您都整理好了這是一篇2017年的研究史丹佛大學開發這個Wobot聊天機器人這個已經驗證了這個一組學生"},{"start":129.787,"end":151.347,"text":"跟憂鬱症他如果去讀治療憂鬱症的電子書相比起跟人工智慧機器人Wobot聊天兩個星期以後Wobot組的學生症狀明顯減輕。二零二年十一月確GPD又橫空出世今年五月又發行新的版本事實上有越來越多新的方法"},{"start":151.707,"end":175.993,"text":"可以來協助我們來幫助學生我們來看英國就有醫療單位使用AI機器人作為求助者的減傷分類工具由AI來幫忙判斷求助者是否需要緊急協助或是需要提供心理治療等建議注意在AI這裡的角色就像是一個虛擬助手而不是一個虛擬心理師他只是做協助的"},{"start":176.593,"end":202.439,"text":"另一個案例根據2023年在《Nature》底下的《Translational Psychiatry》的期刊也指出使用人工智慧語音助手來進行心理治療患者的憂鬱和焦慮的症狀可以獲得改善我們再來看一下今年2月最新的研究發表自COVID-19以來英國的民眾對於心理健康的服務需求持續提升所以有公司開發聊天機器人"},{"start":203.74,"end":230.2,"text":"提供民眾具有同理心的回應和鼓勵。透過聊天的資訊,機器人也協助轉介民眾到需要的心理醫療服務。以該研究顯示,這個AIBOT已經幫助了22萬名的病患完成轉診。請教部長,您剛剛說您不是很了解啦,但是我想再次確認,以您的了解,目前國內有沒有將AI運用在學生輔導工作的相關研究或嘗試?"},{"start":231.54,"end":240.822,"text":"教育的現場確實是我想這個是沒有的但是委員剛才所提供的確實是一個我覺得那是"},{"start":242.571,"end":242.611,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":264.614,"end":289.244,"text":"相關的心理學期刊我們已經有不只一所學校在嘗試希望教育部能夠進一步了解並且擴大辦理了解可行的方案那請教部長那教育部有沒有可能來投入一些經費既然您剛剛都非常open minded能不能積極嘗試科技導入或者將AI科技導入學生輔導的工作藉此找到協助學生輔導的新工作模式我覺得這是一個值得嘗試的一個方式在"},{"start":294.369,"end":294.629,"text":" ﹝負面報告﹞"},{"start":314.19,"end":331.744,"text":"這是我們的努力。好,謝謝。那上次輔導法的公聽會有非常多讀者、與會者都提到關於專輔人員行政工作負擔過重的問題我們也希望運用科技來幫忙。那另外呢,最近正值大專院校的期末前幾天有媒體報導"},{"start":334.466,"end":361.585,"text":"北部一所國立大學有學生收到校務行政人員疑似校務行政人員發出的訊息稱學生該學期有二分之一的學生學分不及格將被勒令退學邀請、要求學生點選連結幸好學生機警沒有點選轉而向校方求證確認以後是詐騙訊息類似的詐騙方式不僅發生在國立大學我們也看到私立大學的學生接到詐騙簡訊"},{"start":363.386,"end":390.731,"text":"請問部長教育部目前有沒有著手調查這個事件的前因後果包含詐騙集團究竟如何取得學生的課資跟聯繫方式目前到底有多少學校多少名學生接獲類似的詐騙簡訊確實這一個不同的教育階段他有不同的這個詐騙有沒有調查這個案子那我們有隨時都有通報系統對這樣的訊息我們都隨時都有掌握請問這個專案知不知道"},{"start":391.604,"end":393.566,"text":"李柏毅等19人擬李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":403.995,"end":405.436,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":428.624,"end":444.147,"text":"並且通報大專院校北一區學務中心。部長,我查了這個相關的設置要點,發現學務中心的工作要點只有維護校園安寧等業務,其中並未涵蓋與資安有關的事項。請問剛剛您怎麼確定這不是資安事件的?這個部分是由這個這一所發現簡訊的學校他們去檢核他們自己的這個學生資料庫的這個安全系統。"},{"start":454.721,"end":478.167,"text":"好,我想確認一下,為什麼我會特別詢問這件事呢?因為呢,近日學生收到上述的詐騙簡訊有幾個樣態。第一個,剛好收到訊息的學生的學業成績不太理想。你想想看,如果我是第一名,我收到這種簡訊我還會被騙嗎?肯定不會嘛。第二個,這個詐騙簡訊的連結是.edu.tw喔。這是某一間台灣的大專院校裡面的網站喔。"},{"start":484.502,"end":495.149,"text":"所以這一間大專院像我孤影其名不是學校的錯有沒有他們治安有沒有問題為什麼剛好就是成績不好的學生收到通報你們難道都不懷疑嗎學校就說沒有就沒有嗎我們不需要跟數位部通查一下嗎謝謝委員的提醒確實如果從委員剛才所提的他確實應該有一些"},{"start":508.69,"end":509.791,"text":"五、審查委員朱司馬基等19人擬"},{"start":529.333,"end":540.677,"text":"這個呢有沒有可能是涉及校園的資安應該要好好來保護學生為什麼我要這樣講呢我們幫你們整理了相關的數據112年全國詐騙案件的數量成長率28.7%同年度的校園詐騙通報案件數成長率是44%"},{"start":548.941,"end":569.337,"text":" bicyclist 竟然比全國詐騙案件的成長率還要高,被騙者是學生啊!我們竟然看到還有幼稚園、幼兒園的國小、國中都有這些數據顯示教育部光靠學制的詐騙宣導活動可能難以遏止啦!想請教一下,在未來"},{"start":570.037,"end":591.355,"text":"我們有沒有除了加強宣導以外還有沒有什麼校園防詐的措施有沒有辦法一起來跟各個資安單位主動介入協助調查釐清相關的事件有沒有涉及資安事件也要請教育部跟速發部應該要積極更經常的來做跨部會的合作能不能做到"},{"start":591.775,"end":605.236,"text":"另外,各校你們都有編列,這個高教生跟預算有資安經費,公立大專院校平均補助每所100萬一年,私立大學平均每所94萬,這樣夠嗎?有沒有要提高?"},{"start":607.628,"end":610.369,"text":"學生是弱勢,校園也是駭客瞄準的目標這已經是各國的資安組織一再警示的本席也一再的提示"},{"start":634.554,"end":653.246,"text":"台灣本來就是資安攻擊的熱區政府單位尤其教育系統也是受攻擊的高風險單位我認為除了教育部應該要針對常見的詐騙形式進行更多宣導以外也希望能夠投入更多的資源強化校園資安避免駭客攻入學校的資訊系統竊取學生個資甚至去影響弱勢的同學去做這種緊張憂鬱繳錢"},{"start":661.491,"end":673.903,"text":"最後反而學生要被輔導竟然是因為我們資安成效不彰被詐騙來提升校園的安全我們一起來努力為整個詐騙產業不要幫他們助攻而是要全面的遏止謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"154244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1352e6dc1391aac3608df44dd9bf560a2ee23585586e40b3a332e030545e112f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:26:32 - 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底的實徵大概是1兆3,263億，相較於去年總數多增加了861億。其中本席比較關心的部分是綜所稅裡頭的房地合一稅，前5個月總共是227億，比去年同期增加了88.9%，將近九成，尤其是桃園、臺中、新竹這三大熱區都成長超過100%。能不能先請教一下部長，財政部能不能把整個各縣市全國交易的細部資料，就是申報的案件當中，到底1年內的換手有幾間，比例有多少？2年有多少、3年有多少？以此類推，這樣才能換算出來5年內的交易是屬於正常換屋還是屬於投資客的交易，算得出來嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，是不是容我們就針對您剛剛提的，就是房地合一稅裡面屬於1年交易、2年交易，所適用的稅率就不同，這個部分委員提到是不是可以做一個統計，我想這個部分我們會後來做一個統計，好不好？就做一個詳細的分析，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：你們應該去分析一下，就如同去分析什麼呢？我們的青安貸有兩次嘛，第一次是99年，第二次是最近，青安貸在第一次的時候為什麼沒有像第二次引起這麼多的爭議？為什麼？你們是不是要查一下第一代的青安貸是不是自住的比例比較高？那個政策有沒有成功？第二次跟第一次的青安貸，你們在整個辦法跟條件上有什麼樣的變化嗎？你知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有的，當然第一個就是，在第二次新青安的部分，我們就把最高貸款額度從原來的800萬調高到1,000萬，這個原因事實上是因為房價有往上；第二個就是把貸款年限從30年延長到40年，讓年輕朋友們可以延長這個期間；還有一個就是寬限期從3年延長為5年。"],["郭委員國文：對，就是因為我們有三種方式的擴大，以至於投入房地產的誘因增加。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：我認為不要去怪罪年輕人趕快投入房市，是不是我們當初制定時有過鬆的現象？我覺得1,000萬可能不是什麼太大的問題。第二個，我覺得最關鍵的問題是寬限期，把3年調成5年的時候，大家還本的時間延長到後面，你看到還本的部分，前面第一年，延長到40年都一樣，前面36個月都是1萬5,000不到，到第四年、第五年，1萬9,000不到，在這種情況底下，就變成什麼樣的現象呢？所有的狀況再加上貸款的部分，銀行貸款可以協助八成，甚至還有建商提出的公司貸、優付貸，再把那兩成處理掉，你知道這種情形嗎？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我知道。"],["郭委員國文：所以真正造成第二波青安貸引起這麼大爭議的，或許不是行為人本身而已，而是我們制度、周遭的助長，周遭的助長有幾個原因，第一個就是我們剛剛講的，我們把3年調到5年、把30年調到40年，接下來還有什麼？網路社團在揪團買啊！你們知道這種現象嗎？你也知道嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：有網紅在那裡做……"],["郭委員國文：所以如果從網紅的社團去查，從建商用公司貸、用優付貸、輕鬆付等這種誘因來帶動整個年輕人不斷地去買，這部分投資的比例比較高，還是自住的比例比較高，您想一想！"],["莊部長翠雲：關於新青安，剛剛我們講到放寬了幾個條件，立意是好的，也就是讓年輕人，尤其剛出社會也許薪資可能不是那麼高，立意是好的！"],["郭委員國文：立意是好的，但是結果恐怕會造成很大的爭議，總體的房屋政策是牴觸的，我就問部長，這三點的部分有沒有緊縮的可能？有沒有考慮？還是維持這種開放性？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，行政院已經要各部會去盤點相關的一些資料，然後也會做一些政策決定。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，部長，我再問你一次，在主政部會當中，這三個當中有沒有緊縮的可能？這是第一個。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們認為這個對年輕人……"],["郭委員國文：第二個，對建商的輕鬆付、公司貸有沒有約束的可能？第三個，對於網路揪團買，有沒有什麼樣他律的空間？我認為這三點是最有可能的！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，關於新青安在剛剛提的這三項要不要做緊縮，我覺得這三項對年輕人是非常重要的，因為減輕他這個部分，立意是良善，但是不要因為有一些不好的情況，比如投機的或者是其他的而去做緊縮；那至於剛剛後面委員有所……"],["郭委員國文：如果這三個沒有緊縮的空間，就是要處理用優付貸、公司貸的部分啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，您提到這兩項，針對公司貸這個部分的話術等等，內政部其實都已經注意到，然後也會做處理。"],["郭委員國文：公司貸還有包括網路啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，網路的。"],["郭委員國文：集體揪團啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是！這個部分內政部都已經知道了，而且會注意去處理。"],["郭委員國文：對，所以現在政府要從這兩部分來進行著手，這邊的投資可能性就比較大，現在重點又放在哪裡？放在所謂的轉租，我跟你講，這個轉租、租屋的意義不大，因為從頭期款、買預售屋到成屋的時候，那個行為到時候你說是所謂轉租，那不知道什麼時候，錢的熱度沒有辦法到那個時候，最重要他還是在投資啊！他把這一個當成什麼？當成一種期貨，我繳完這5年之後，我預期房市以後會上漲，我5年後再脫手啊，就是這變成一個期貨、不動產的期貨啦！部長，你知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：變成是一個投資行為啦。"],["郭委員國文：對！"],["莊部長翠雲：可是預售屋是不能用新青安的啦，不能用青安貸款，因為要成屋才能夠貸這個錢。"],["郭委員國文：包括成屋的部分也是一種期貨，5年後再拋售也是一種期貨啊！所以就同樣是投資的行為嘛，也就是說，誰創造出來這種期貨的心理？誰創造出來這個期貨的商品？這個商品變成期貨的時候，你如何把這個本質打掉，我覺得這是關鍵啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員，瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：部長，請你去思考一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：思考一下這個很關鍵的本質，是我們創造出來期貨的本質嘛。","第二個部分，你去看看我們去年銀行業大賺多少？5,057億！從中間的華南銀行、第一銀行、兆豐都大賺200億以上，你到底有沒有去看過總體這些國、公營的銀行獲利有多少來自於土建融的放款？你有沒有試算過？"],["莊部長翠雲：今天沒有帶資料。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，關於這波房地產，我們的國、公營銀行是受益者耶，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，因為……"],["郭委員國文：當然啦！對呀！你們最喜歡放款這些土建融嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：土建融，對。"],["郭委員國文：然後另外一個部分，以至於這個資本的集中力會越來越高，我就問你一點嘛，我們青安貸的貸款金額有沒有列入銀行法第七十二條之三的30%計算，還是屬於例外範圍？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分有，但土地銀行因為是屬於專業銀行，所以它沒有受銀行法的規定，但其他的銀行仍然有天花板。"],["郭委員國文：對嘛，都沒有受到這個限制啊，以至於這一個放款的成數會越來越增加，對不對？是不是我們這個部分的例外條款太多，你們要思考一下，否則的話，這30%的條款形同虛設，我講白一點，真的形同虛設啊，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：可是跟委員說，我們看這個新青安貸款總額現在是四千多億，大部分是住宅，我們也看到他們買的房子大概都是在1,300萬以下，其實……"],["郭委員國文：部長，太好了！"],["莊部長翠雲：大概是1,500萬以下，占78%。"],["郭委員國文：你這個應該要講出來，我不是在強烈懷疑青安貸，青安貸在第一代的時候是成功的，第二代造成這一種……老實講，就是有幾顆老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊。"],["郭委員國文：那你要把大部分的正常交易行為凸顯出來，為什麼本席剛剛問你第一代的自住比例多少？你要強化這個政策的正當性；第二個部分，現在的購買行為當中屬於自住可能性的比例大概多少，你也應該推估出來；最後，當發生投機行為的時候，你要處理的是投機行為的部分嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：對，你應該把這個……也就是說，我們這個政策到目前為止至少75%以上，就如同你剛剛講的數字，75%以上是正確的，只是25%是投資行為而破壞掉了，你應該講清楚，否則的話，政府的政策本來是良法美意，後來被搞得烏煙瘴氣，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，所以跟委員報告，依我們這邊的資料，1,500萬是他們買的總價，不是貸款。"],["郭委員國文：對，總價，這個判斷出來嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：1,500萬以下占了78%，所以他不是去炒高價的！"],["郭委員國文：而且你是分區域，1,500這個自住的可能性很大嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對！而且……"],["郭委員國文：你應該要把這個相對而言是屬於正常自住的購屋行為講出來嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，對呀，事實上……"],["郭委員國文：這是第一個，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：免得這個青安貸被污名化，但該檢討的我們還是要檢討，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["郭委員國文：該去處理建商還是要處理建商，網路上這些行為該怎麼約束還是要約束！","最後我要問一下關務署，這兩天你有回應本席兩個問題，第一個，是那個稅金從兩萬五調升到三萬五，本席給你肯定；第二個部分，有關於網路詐騙，針對退稅的問題你也有作出一個不用公證費用的部分，本席也給你肯定。但是目前這個退稅還停留在紙本的部分，本席難以苟同，因為我們繳稅都AI化、繳稅都便捷化，退稅卻紙本化！","還有部長，我也提醒你一下，類似這一種繳稅我們都有期限，超過期限我們就要罰，那我問一下，如果是民眾要求你退稅，你有沒有給自己期限？"],["彭署長英偉：要求退稅的期限？"],["郭委員國文：對啊！就整個退稅的部分，不只是你，還有包括賦稅署，退稅的時候你有沒有給期限？我舉一個例子，部長注意聽，就是剛剛同樣的房地合一稅的換屋重購退稅，你們有沒有時間點？也沒有時間點、多久要退稅完成也沒有時間點啊！比如說，你可能拖個1年、3年，遇到5、6月報稅旺季的時候可能拖了半年。這部分民眾都抱怨連連，繳稅要AI化、繳稅要便捷化，退稅卻沒有時間點！然後繳稅超過時限你要罰錢，退稅你們無責，這不太對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解。"],["郭委員國文：你們是不是應該自我檢討一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員的意思就是說，民眾申請退稅，那政府應該要多少時間以內退給人家。"],["郭委員國文：對，多少時間你要明確而且越快越好，你都希望人家繳稅越快越好，你退稅會越慢越好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們回去檢討一下。"],["郭委員國文：哪有這種道理！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，瞭解，謝謝！"],["郭委員國文：部長，好好地內部檢討一下，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：瞭解，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請羅明才羅召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","王世堅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅\n法部分條文修正草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1136501_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.69596875,"end":79.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.13346875,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.20909375000001,"end":77.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.95971875000001,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.81846875000001,"end":106.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.59659375000001,"end":108.04784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.83284375000001,"end":129.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.64596875000001,"end":115.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.01721875000001,"end":115.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.97909375,"end":117.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.66596875,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.03721875000001,"end":122.83034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.96096875,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.97784375,"end":124.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.64409375000001,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.90971875000001,"end":128.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.36096875,"end":153.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.47846875000002,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.24596875,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.84659375,"end":160.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.30534375000002,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.87471875,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.59159375000002,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.42221875,"end":170.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.10971875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.33284375000002,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.65284375000002,"end":182.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.10784375,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.23409375,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.80346875,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.32221875000002,"end":189.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.99284375000002,"end":192.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.31721875000002,"end":195.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.08471875,"end":196.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.38846875000002,"end":205.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.41659375,"end":207.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.50909375,"end":220.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.48596875,"end":221.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.57846875,"end":224.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.32096875000002,"end":224.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.92409375000003,"end":241.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.18284375000002,"end":243.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.75659375,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.13534375,"end":250.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.47221875000002,"end":266.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.57159375000003,"end":269.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.33909375,"end":277.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.02596875,"end":294.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.06284375,"end":284.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.78659375,"end":312.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.02596875,"end":302.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.38034375,"end":302.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.43909375000004,"end":304.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.03721875,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.97346875,"end":334.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.52596875,"end":316.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.06159375000004,"end":318.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.74846875000003,"end":323.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.43596875000003,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.03909375,"end":327.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.03034375000004,"end":328.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.11471875,"end":328.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.83596875,"end":330.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.44284375,"end":369.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.40784375000004,"end":372.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.10346875000005,"end":374.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.19596875,"end":380.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.78159375,"end":381.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.96284375000005,"end":391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不動產的期貨啦 部長 你知道嗎?變成是一個投資行為啦 也就是說可是預售屋是不能用清清安的啦 不能用清安貸款 因為你要成屋才能夠貸這個錢就包括成屋的部分也是一種期貨啊 5年後我再拋售也是一種期貨啊"},{"start":397.538,"end":411.809,"text":"對阿所以這同樣是投資的行為嘛也就是說誰創造了出來這個期貨的心理誰創造出來這個期貨的商品這個商品變成期貨的時候你如果把它這個本質把它打掉我覺得這是關鍵阿"},{"start":413.751,"end":425.041,"text":"副部長,請你思考一下好不好,思考一下這一個很關鍵的本質是我們創造出來期貨的本質嘛第二個部分呢,你去看看我們去年銀行業大賺多少?5057億啊"},{"start":430.105,"end":444.171,"text":"中間的華南銀行、第一銀行、兆豐都大賺200億以上你到底有沒有去看過說呢總體的這些銀行、國公營的銀行的這個獲利有多少來自於這個土建榮的放款?你有沒有算過?你有沒有算過?我跟你講這一波房地產啦我們的國公銀行啊是受益者欸不是嗎?"},{"start":460.492,"end":479.467,"text":"不是嗎?當然啊!你們最喜歡放款這些土建容嘛!然後另外一個部分以致於這個資本的集中力會越來越高嘛!我就問你一點嘛!我們的青安貸的這個貸款的這個金額有沒有列入銀行法72條之3的30%的計算還是屬於地外範圍?"},{"start":483.07,"end":506.844,"text":"這個部分有但土地銀行是因為是屬於專業銀行所以他沒有受銀行法的規定那其他的銀行仍然有天花板所以以至於這個販款的成數會越來越增加對不對是不是我們這個部分的例外條款太多你們要思考一下否則的話這30%的條款形同虛設我講白一點真的是形同虛設對不對"},{"start":511.974,"end":527.6,"text":"可是跟委員說我們已看這個親安貸款總額現在是4000多億他大概是住宅那我們也看到他們買的房子大概是都是在1500萬以下大概是1500萬以下占78%你這個應該講出來我這個東西不是在強烈懷疑親安貸親安貸我們在第一代的時候是成功的"},{"start":540.385,"end":557.494,"text":"第二代造成這一種呢就是老實講就是有幾顆老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥嘛那你要把大部分的正常的交易行為你不要把它凸顯出來為什麼本席剛剛在問你就第一代的時候自住的比例多少你要強化這個政策的正當性"},{"start":558.274,"end":578.152,"text":"第2個部分呢你現在的購買行為當中屬於自住的可能性大概比例多少你應該推估出來最後呢是投機行為的時候你要把它處理是投機行為的部分嘛對不對是對你應該把它這個也就是說我們這個政策到目前為止至少75%以上就如同你剛剛講的數字75%以上是正確的只是25%是投資行為破壞掉了你應該講清楚"},{"start":585.638,"end":594.02,"text":"否則的話政府的政策本來是良法美意啊會被搞得烏煙瘴氣不是嗎?是的,所以根據委員報告我們這邊的資料1500萬他們買的總價不是貸款1500萬以下占了78%而且你一個分區域1500這個製作的可能性很大嘛你應該把這個它相對而言是屬於正常的一個製作購物行為你要講出來嘛這第一個嘛好不好免得這個"},{"start":615.225,"end":615.405,"text":"主席"},{"start":631.693,"end":656.208,"text":"你有回應本席兩個問題第一個是從那個稅金那個2萬5調成到3萬5本席跟你肯定第二個部分有關你這個網路詐騙那退稅的問題你也有做出一個不用公證費用的這個部分本席也跟你肯定但是目前這個退稅還停留在資本的部分本席拿你狗頭"},{"start":657.429,"end":674.941,"text":"因為呢我們繳稅都AI化繳稅都便捷化退稅是紙本化還有那個部長我也跟你提醒一下類似這種繳稅啊我們都有期限啊超過期限我們就要罰那我問一下我那個民眾要求你退稅呢你有沒有給自己期限"},{"start":677.834,"end":704.353,"text":"對阿沒有這整個退稅的部分不只是你還有包括稅務署退稅的時候你有沒有給期限我舉一個例子部長您注意聽齁就是剛剛同樣的房地合一稅換屋重購退稅你們有沒有時間點有沒有時間點阿對啊多久要退稅完成有沒有時間點阿也就是說呢你可能拖個一年三年遇到五六月報稅忘記的時候可能就拖了半年阿對啊"},{"start":706.637,"end":723.325,"text":"這民眾都抱怨年年繳稅要AI化繳稅要變賊化退稅稅沒有時間點然後呢繳稅超過時限你要罰錢退稅你們無責這不太對吧你們是不是應該自我檢討一下對多少時間你要明確越虧越好你都希望繳稅越虧你退稅會越辦越好那有這種道理部長好好的內部檢討一下謝謝"},{"start":736.152,"end":736.412,"text":"羅明采、羅昭偉"}]}},{"id":"154242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1376e7d6472c030ccc258fa09de8d0f30ee23585586e40b3ae99e36b52d2140225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:25:23 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10:41:21","影片長度":"00:15:58","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:25:23+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:41:21+08:00","duration":958,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":480,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時25分）謝謝主席，首先請連次長跟國營會，謝謝。"],["主席：請連次長、請國營會。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長好。首先請國營會來說明我們四大公司──台水、台糖、台電、中油，目前的人員各多少以及預計退休的人員有多少？"],["胡司長文中：跟委員報告，現在台電公司到目前為止是2萬9,395人，中油公司是1萬6,844人，台糖公司是3,209人，台水公司是5,779人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：預計不管是自願或者是屆齡退休……"],["胡司長文中：這是現在的員工總人數。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你預估到今年會減多少人？"],["胡司長文中：關於今年的退休人數，因為剛才有跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主席，這個時間要扣掉，剛剛已經……"],["胡司長文中：對，他們現在因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從頭到現在，數字還搞不清楚。次長，你在這裡，曾董事長以前也是次長，你們都是管這四大公司的，我們國營會真的要加油，如果連這樣的數字都講不出來，這是離譜至極，請說明。"],["胡司長文中：因為剛才委員要求……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請說明。"],["胡司長文中：今年整個會退休2,640人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們預計可以進多少？"],["胡司長文中：我們去年招考的人數是今年會進來，也是差不多兩千多人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：差不多這個數字？"],["胡司長文中：對，差不多數字。"],["連次長錦漳：差不多2,087人。"],["胡司長文中：對，我們大概統計下來是2,087人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：四大公司的負責人請上來。我相信大家都知道你們的辛苦，今天之所以排定這個議程，也就是把問題提出，我們到底要怎麼樣充足我們的人力而且穩定軍心？因為現在全球都在搶人才，我們的屆齡退休跟自願退休是屆齡退休只有三成左右，自願退休大概七成，這個數字連次長在點頭，這是一個嚴肅的議題。如果不是這樣子，請國營會再說明。"],["胡司長文中：應該是這樣，因為現在台糖的資料還沒出來，我大概跟委員報告，假設今年預定退休2,640人，當中屆齡退休大概一半。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說的是差一成多，但是大家都認定國營事業單位是最榮耀的單位，為什麼自願退休竟占一半左右？原因是什麼？我們姑且待會再做討論。我們把問題提出之後，坊間也有說申請一個電錶至少要規劃三個月，當然申請的人很緊張，最好是趕快，但是我也知道機關單位有你們的困難，據聞是因為服務所的人力不足，新進人員的經驗還沒有那麼充足，所以會把這個時間延長，是不是如此的原因？請教台電，有沒有這個問題？人力不足以及基層因為經驗斷層、衝擊而導致這個結果？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，這些相關的工作除了台電自己本身做，也有一些是委外。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，外包。"],["曾董事長文生：應該要這樣講，整體來講，台電現在是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛本席所提問的是不是原因之一？"],["曾董事長文生：加接電錶、裝電錶簡單，主要是牽那一個線會比較……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對問題回答。"],["曾董事長文生：要看地點。跟委員報告，要這麼長的時間……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們今天是要提出問題、解決問題。"],["曾董事長文生：這麼長的時間，可能有零星的個案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可能有，所以還是有。接下來，其他的有沒有這個問題？台水有沒有這個問題？"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟召委報告，目前水公司新裝工程的設計我們人力都沒有什麼問題。因為在技術上，他們進來大概學習三到六個月應該就可以上手。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：新進人員大概半年內可以學習、跟得上。"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席在這邊跟國營會以及次長強調，這些是退休之後補進來的新進人員，但是留人才才是重點，早期我們有討論國營事業單位如果委外太多，你自己沒有訓練基本功，當然你會有斷層，所以我仍舊是秉持這個原則，也就是希望我們四大公司，我知道在最基層是最辛苦的，你們一定要想辦法留人才，我也請四大公司將你們預計怎麼留人才、讓人才可以充足穩定提出書面資料給本席，你們請回座。","接下來我要談論電的問題，本席要請教，我聽到台電要取消凍漲，從蔡英文總統的時代我們針對學校、農漁、社福，甚至去年就擴大到這些項目，據聞台電宣布取消是因為虧損太多，如果取消這些，我們可以節省42億，這樣的對外訊息正確嗎？台電董事長請說明。"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，那個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是正確？請告訴我。"],["曾董事長文生：要這樣子說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣的說法正不正確？"],["曾董事長文生：委員講的那個不完全對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我請問你，你不用跟我辯，我們在講答案。"],["曾董事長文生：應該是說台電的電費要由行政機關編預算來補貼。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問台電要取消對農漁、學校、社福團體的電費凍漲，改由各部會自行決定是否要編列預算來補貼，台電說可以省下42億，是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：剛才那幾類只有農漁、社福等等的，這些是42億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：農漁、社福取消凍漲是42億？"],["曾董事長文生：不是取消凍漲，是由部會來補貼，維持他們的電費水準。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教台電目前是不是要取消這些凍漲？"],["曾董事長文生：是由機關編預算來享受這一些優惠電價。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：停止你的發言。我請教連次長，這是政策性的問題，由台電來回答也不適當，由次長你來回答。"],["連次長錦漳：不是取消，他是說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那要怎麼樣呢？"],["連次長錦漳：還是維持那個電價、就是要維持那個電價，但是吸收漲電費的費用，現在是回到各主管機關編列經費來支應。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問次長，您是經濟部次長，您先取消凍漲，然後再由各相關所屬部門編列預算來補足凍漲的預算，是不是這樣子？是不是？"],["連次長錦漳：對、對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那教育部會編嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：這在行政院已經有達成共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以行政院有達成共識，你們也參加了，教育部會編足嗎？高中以下，教育部會不會編？我們聽不到訊息，我們希望要公開透明，教育部會編嗎？我告訴次長，苦不能苦孩子，這是蔡英文總統任內以及去年的時候所擴及的，包括社福，請問內政部會編嗎？教育部會編嗎？次長。"],["連次長錦漳：跟委員報告，剛剛教育部長在教育及文化委員會已經說他會編。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他會去編，內政部會不會編？"],["連次長錦漳：這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然是行政院的指示，本席要請教，因為再苦也不能苦孩子，我想你認同這一句話吧？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再苦不能苦孩子，你點頭、你也認同，曾董事長也點頭，再苦不能苦孩子！所以這個政策下去，要由各部會去編，現在正在編列明年度的預算，我們要看會不會編足，我可以這麼解讀嗎？取消凍漲之後由各部會去編，都會編足這個額度，是不是如此？"],["連次長錦漳：因為這個在行政院協調有共識，這一部分我們在行政院這邊會再來督促各部會，請行政院……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以現在還不知道會不會編？"],["連次長錦漳：請行政院來督促，因為教育部剛剛在教育委員會已經有說它會編，我想其他部會，因為既然是在行政院那邊協調出來的，大家就要「照品照行」。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，「照品照行」。所以次長，也不需要台電一直背黑鍋嘛，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：因為大家在講……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我的一句話，再苦不能苦孩子，再苦不能苦弱勢社團，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是大家的共識，我要請問這個政策行政院這樣拍板定案，到底是台電決定、行政院決定，還是總統決定？誰決定？"],["連次長錦漳：就是在行政院開會決定的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：誰拍板定案的？因為這是蔡英文總統當時任內所做的決定，現在賴總統、卓院長拍板定案，誰提議啊？經濟部提議嗎？台電提議嗎？誰提議的？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要知道誰提議的。"],["曾董事長文生：開會的狀況是在4月份的電價……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我誰提議。"],["曾董事長文生：提議是台電。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：台電提議嘛！經過行政院的跨部會決定，是不是要打臉蔡英文總統？是不是啊？"],["曾董事長文生：委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你取消他的政策嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：這個不是取消政策。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們不管你怎麼做，本席要……"],["曾董事長文生：這個不是取消政策。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這當然是取消，凍漲取消，改一個方式由各部會編足，所以我們要追……"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告幾件事，1,000億也是行政院在編……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請聽本席說，到底各部會會不會執行到位，這個我們要追，我要再次說明，再苦也不能苦孩子，再苦也不能苦弱勢團體，這個認同吧，次長？這個認同。","好，所以最後一個議題，我給你功課，你來回答……"],["連次長錦漳：報告委員，我還是要重申一下，對於弱勢團體或是社福團體，這個是沒有取消的，我說它的電價優惠是沒有取消的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請說明一下，沒有取消凍漲？"],["連次長錦漳：對，它還是凍漲，但是那些增加出來的，本來是由台電吸收，現在只是由……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在要內政部去編列嘛！"],["連次長錦漳：對，那只是說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要規劃好喔！"],["連次長錦漳：出錢的方式是換了另外一個方式而已。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：各部會回歸各部會，是不是？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，各部會我們就看它有沒有編。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為再苦不能苦孩子，再苦不能苦弱勢團體，我相信這個沒有政治話術，全民一定都支持，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，我給你功課，夏季的時候，保證夏季備轉容量不低於10%，甚至7%，517需量反應，因為需要，所以你買電買了一度12塊，郭部長在這邊都有回答，所以我要請問，因為夏季電量會增加，你們預估在夏季的時候會不會因為缺電，備轉容量不到你所說的10%，會再買一度12塊的電，會不會如此做？台電董事長，會不會如此做？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我們現在的準備就是要達到夜尖峰7%，這是我們在做的準備，所有的準備……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，平常10%。"],["曾董事長文生：所有的準備都是……因為機組能夠正常運轉，如果有任何狀況，我們當然就會依照調度規則來做，這是確定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，依據規則，你們現在夏季仍舊有可能一度12塊？"],["曾董事長文生：不是，委員，你剛所說的需量反應有很多種，我也跟您多次做過說明，平均價格……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家都是內行的，我跟你說，基本10元，你有必要，可以再增二成至12元。"],["曾董事長文生：平均價格沒有到這個水準，平均價格有的只有個位數字……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，你不要再跟我咬文嚼字說數字的問題，最高就可以買到12塊，這個是郭部長自己都說有的。"],["曾董事長文生：他講的是最高……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席也不是說你每一度都買到12元。"],["曾董事長文生：OK。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席問你，在你的機制裡有可能會跟民間一度買到12塊，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：那個是一個梯度最高的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以有可能嘛！對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：我們不同的機組有不同的發電成本。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請聽清楚，有可能一度買到12塊，夏季需求量多的時候，不排除以任何方式來取得電嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對嘛，你就回答這個就對了。所以你們也不斷地要ESCO，不斷地ESCO的時候，甚至有說需要的時候從遠端將冷氣切換為送風模式或者關閉，給電費扣減、節電每度10塊等回饋金，這個政策據聞要7月1號開始執行，是嗎？我們看你們的網站公告的喔！"],["曾董事長文生：這個是節電政策，你講的ESCO也是一個節電……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：7月1號要開始嗎？是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：這個是我們網站上公告業務處一個新的服務。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以是不是7月份要開始如此？"],["曾董事長文生：試辦，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如此試辦嘛！好，也就是想辦法任何的ESCO，我要一個結論，如果不缺電，為什麼會有這麼多的政策？那沒關係……"],["曾董事長文生：全世界都在做這件事情……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也希望ESCO是全世界必須要推動的，但是仍舊需要有充足的電、穩定的電，綠能的電也就是乾淨碳排的電，對不對？是不是？朝這個方向對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：委員，缺不缺電跟節電沒有關係，本來電充足，也還是要節電，節電會省成本、省口袋的錢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，本席也說了，ESCO是全球都要推動的，但是你卻反推，在缺電的時候，你會買到一度12塊，這是人民的納稅錢……"],["連次長錦漳：所以更要節電啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你去深思、討論，好不好？7月份就開始這麼做，你的網站上面公布的嘛！你說要試辦是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：對，我們現在業務部在推動這個業務沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，要試辦，我們看成果怎麼樣，大家一起加油，謝謝。"],["連次長錦漳：好，謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：我們現在先休息3分鐘。","休息（10時41分）","繼續開會（10時45分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，我們請邱志偉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我們姑且待會再做討論我們把問題提出之後坊間也有說因為我要申請我要申請一個電表我至少要規劃三個月幾個月"},{"start":222.839,"end":222.959,"text":"來 請教台電"},{"start":248.199,"end":262.352,"text":"有沒有這個問題人力不足以及在基層因為經驗斷層衝擊導致這個原因各位報告就是說這些相關的工作除了台電自己本身做也有一些委外"},{"start":263.573,"end":276.606,"text":"那應該要這樣講就是整體來講臺電 剛剛本席所提問的是不是我們的原因之一 那個加接電表裝電表簡單主要是前來一個線會比較 請針對問題回答我們今天是要提出問題解決問題 這麼長的時間可能有零星的個案"},{"start":286.36,"end":301.726,"text":"可能有,所以還是有。接下來其他的有沒有這個問題?台水有沒有這個問題?水公司目前是新裝工程的設計,現在我們人力都沒有什麼問題。因為這個技術上他們進來應該大概學習了3到6個月就應該可以上手。"},{"start":309.369,"end":332.747,"text":"有新進人員大概半年內可以學習跟得上好那本席在這邊跟國營會以及次長在這裡喔也就是這一些的人員我們退休之後新進補進來但是留人才才是重點早期我們有討論國營事業單位如果委外的太多你自己沒有訓練你的基本功"},{"start":333.467,"end":357.671,"text":"那當然你會有斷層所以我仍舊這個原則也就是希望我們四大公司我知道在最基層是最辛苦的你們一定要想辦法去留人才出來那我也請你們四大公司將你們預計要怎麼樣留人才讓我們的人才可以充足穩定請素面資料給本席你們請回座接下來我要談論電的問題請做其他請回"},{"start":362.072,"end":368.617,"text":"市長跟店請留住本需要請教我聽到了台電要取消動漲"},{"start":370.472,"end":393.185,"text":"因為從蔡英文總統的時代我們將學校、農娛、社福甚至去年就擴大到這些的項目那據聞台電要宣布要取消是為了說我們的虧損太多如果取消這些我們可以節省42億對外這樣子的訊息是正確的嗎?"},{"start":394.546,"end":394.747,"text":"臺電董事長"},{"start":409.504,"end":424.07,"text":"台電要取消對農娛學校社福團體的電費動長改由各部會自行決定是否要編列預算來補貼 台電說可以省下台電42億 是不是"},{"start":426.716,"end":432.74,"text":"剛才那幾類只有農、漁、社福等等的這些是42億不是,取消動長是有部會來補貼維持他們的電費水準"},{"start":446.664,"end":463.891,"text":"是由機關來編預算來享受這一些優惠的電價﹖請教這是政策性的問題由台電來回答也不是當那由次長你來回答他不是取消還是維持那個電價"},{"start":467.873,"end":470.554,"text":"那請問次長您是經濟部長您站在就是說先取消動長然後再由各相關所屬部門去編列預算來補足動長的那個預算是不是這樣子"},{"start":493.921,"end":497.005,"text":"教育部會編嗎?教育部會編嗎?"},{"start":511.26,"end":533.315,"text":"我們聽不到訊息欸我們希望要公開透明教育部會編嗎因為我告訴次長苦不能苦孩子欸這是蔡英文總統任內以及去年的時候所擴及的包括社府請問內政部會編嗎教育部會編嗎教育部長在教育委員會那邊已經有說他會去編他會去編喔內政部會不會編"},{"start":540.355,"end":567.333,"text":"你們既然是行政院的指示那所以本期要請教因為再苦也不能苦孩子我想你認同這一句話吧再苦不能苦孩子你點頭你也認同喔這個叫市長習慣喔這個曾董事長也點頭再苦不能苦孩子所以你這個政策下去要由各部會去編我們要看現在正在編列明年度的預算會不會編足"},{"start":570.055,"end":585.092,"text":"我可以這麼解讀嗎?動長之後取消動長之後由各部會去編都會編足這個額度是不是如此?因為這個在行政院有去做協調有共識這一部分我們會在行政院"},{"start":585.933,"end":590.398,"text":"這邊我們會再來跟各部會再來督促這樣請行這邊來督促因為教育部已經剛剛在教育委員那邊已經說他會編我想其他部會因為既然是在行政院那邊協調出來的大家來教訓教訓"},{"start":600.469,"end":600.889,"text":"這是在行政院開會決定的"},{"start":628.892,"end":642.456,"text":"誰拍板定案的?因為這是蔡英文總統當時任內所做的決定那現在賴總統我們現在卓院長拍板定案誰提議啊?誰提議?是誰提議?經濟部提議嗎?台電提議嗎?誰提議的?大家要知道誰提議的請告訴我誰提議?"},{"start":658.612,"end":662.596,"text":"提議是台電 經過行政院的跨部會決定 是不是要打臉蔡英文總統 是不是啊 因為他的政策你取消嘛 那我們不管你怎麼做 本席要 動長取消"},{"start":679.895,"end":700.175,"text":"改一個方式由各部會去編組所以我們要追請聽本席說所以我要追到底各部會會不會執行大委這個我們要追因為我要再次說明再苦也不能苦孩子再苦也不能苦弱勢團體這個認同吧市長這個認同喔"},{"start":705.42,"end":715.652,"text":"對認同好最後一個議題我給你功課你來回答我要重申一下這個是那一些若是團體或是社會團體這個是沒有取消的齁我說他的電價又會是沒有取消的齁"},{"start":721.639,"end":740.487,"text":"請說明一下,沒有取消棟長?他還是棟長,但是那些增加出來的本來是由台電吸收你現在叫內政部去編列嗎?那你要叫好喔!出錢的方式是換了另外一個方式而已各部委回歸各部委,是不是?"},{"start":741.728,"end":743.69,"text":"最後一個議題我功課給你下季的時候呢保證下季倍容量"},{"start":759.289,"end":786.227,"text":"不低於10%甚至7%517的需量反映因為需要所以你買電買了一度12塊郭部長在這邊都有回答所以我要請問因為夏季電量會增加那你們預估預估在夏季的時候會不會因為缺電所以你的備載容量不到你所說的10%再買12度的電會不會如此做"},{"start":788.882,"end":793.026,"text":"臺電董事長會不會如此做?各位委員報告我們現在的準備就是要達到葉建峰7%這是我們在做的準備那所有的準備都是因為那個機組能夠正常運轉"},{"start":803.757,"end":807.12,"text":"那如果有任何的狀況我們當然就會依照我們的調度的規則來做好 照預計規則你們現在有的一度12塊再下進仍舊有可能委員你剛才所說的虛量反應他有很多種我也跟您多次做過說明大家都內行的外購幾分十塊你有必要可以再增"},{"start":825.015,"end":844.726,"text":"平均價格沒有到這一個水準當然你不要再給我雅雯爵士說數字的問題最高就可以買到12塊這個是郭部長這個自己都說的有的我本期也不是跟你說你每一度都買到12本期問你你有可能你的機制裡頭有一度跟民間買到12塊對不對"},{"start":846.647,"end":847.127,"text":"所以你們不斷也要S口"},{"start":865.578,"end":875.321,"text":"不斷的ESCO的時候甚至有說從遠端冷氣需要的時候作為送風模式或者關閉給電費扣減節電每度10塊的回饋金這個政策據聞要7月1日開始執行是嗎?"},{"start":882.928,"end":886.372,"text":"這個是我們看你們的網站喔這個是節電政策你講的S口也是一個是不是節電這個是我們網站上公告業務處的對所以是不是7月份要開始如此事辦沒有錯如此事辦嘛好也就是想辦法任何的S口我要一個結論"},{"start":900.385,"end":916.481,"text":"如果不缺電為什麼會有這麼多的政策那沒關係我們也希望S口是全世界我們必須要推動的但是我仍舊需要有充足的電穩定的電綠能的電也就是乾淨的碳排的電對不對"},{"start":918.26,"end":919.521,"text":"是不是?朝這個方向對不對?"},{"start":948.2,"end":948.781,"text":"我們現在在推動這個業務"}]}},{"id":"154241","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154241","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1d60b6a8da8b5e3f7a22d6087941f42bcee23585586e40b3a63da75164c6fb7565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"10:28:53 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10:38:55","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:28:53+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:38:55+08:00","duration":602,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":294,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早安。剛剛所有委員都在問專輔人力，跟部長分享，專輔人力是第十一條，但是還有第十條的學校裡面的專業輔導教師，所以這是所有委員還有所有現場老師們的哀嚎，如果人數真的可以增加，經費也可以增加，我覺得最可怕的下一個問題，我要趕快讓部長知道，也許部長現在不會有答案，可是拜託您在做相關政策盤點的時候，一定要思考，您所有要增加的這些人會將近兩、三千人，而後面要怎麼補上來？現場就已經缺人了，部長，所有的人不管是因為薪資的關係、不管是因為薪俸的關係、不管是因為等第關係，他們不想要進到這個工作現場嗎？還是因為現場培育出來的人根本就不夠？所以一旦我們真的把所有人數比納入法規之後，我要告訴部長，我們根本補不齊。","所以回到人力培育這件事情，我們到底還可以做什麼？拜託教育部一併納入思考，好嗎？因為剛剛都沒有委員提到這件事情，但是這才是最可怕的事情，也就是說，我們人數就算補上來、錢給齊了，地方政府依然請不到人，不管是地方學輔諮商中心第十一條專輔人員或是第十條學校裡面的輔導老師，一樣會請不到人，好嗎？請問這部分部長有什麼見解？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實這也是我們在這一次的修法，我們很清楚如果快速的……就是財源沒有問題，但我們的師資培育還遠遠沒有辦法跟上我們所期待的，但是我們確實也在努力，從師培、從一些在職老師怎麼樣去增能，然後真正能夠發揮專業所用，我想這也是我們在盤點、在努力的。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長講了兩個關鍵，一個是師培端，一個是在職增能，所以我們就要提到為什麼要在職增能這件事情。我們來看另外一個我們現在看到的問題，目前我們看不到關於矯正學校如何被納入學輔法裡面考量，我們先不管法務部的立場，我想要問部長身為一個基層教育工作者，也是大學校長，你站在教育的立場，你贊不贊成把矯正學校的學生納入學生輔導法的法規範疇？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們本來就希望矯正的學生到最後能夠回歸到正常的學校，他確實在一個特定時空裡有一些特殊時段的處遇，他當然有他特殊的需求，目標我們都是希望他能夠回到一般的學校。"],["陳委員培瑜：我可以請法務部表示你們的態度跟意見嗎？因為矯正學校的學生，目前你們可能說會有少矯學校處遇實施條例，而目前少矯學校處遇實施條例的規劃狀況又是什麼？你們打算什麼時候送行政院？難道在這次學輔法的修法過程當中，我們要再次遺漏這些學生嗎？來自少矯校的校長告訴我們，我們之前已經跟教育部反映過，從特教端孩子們需要協助，但沒有被接住，現在回到學生輔導法，我們要再次漏掉這些小孩嗎？剛剛召委已經講了非常多極端、令人悲傷的個案，新北市割喉案的那個孩子，他就是這個狀況，當時的案子他們也都承認中間有漏接，這次在學輔法，我們要再次強調請把少矯學校的孩子納入法規，請問法務部你們的態度及目前的規劃是什麼？"],["劉組長嘉勝：跟委員報告，我們少矯校條例的草案其實有訂了相關的規定，就是我們也有成立少年矯正教育及輔導小組，即有關教育及輔導事項都是由小組來……"],["陳委員培瑜：目前的工作進度是什麼？"],["劉組長嘉勝：我們在113年3月12號已經送到院裡面去了。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以有跟教育部討論嗎？關於相關學生輔導的辦法跟相關的理念還有怎麼樣實施，然後原本的三級輔導制在少矯校裡面依然成立嗎？因為軍校、警校在十年前就已經納入學生輔導法的規定，但是矯校並沒有納入，去年修過校園性別平等教育法，軍、警、矯校也已經納入，但是在這次學輔法裡面我們依然沒有看見，我們辦公室基本上也已經要求法務部跟我們辦公室進行討論，所以後續的相關規劃，剛剛教育部長也說了，站在教育支持孩子的角度，他們必須要被納入，但是我知道矯校的主管機關是法務部，我們尊重法務部的判斷，但是站在支持孩子的立場，到底法務部跟教育部合起來我們還可以多做些什麼，是不是有待我們之後繼續討論？"],["劉組長嘉勝：跟委員報告一下，目前我們的作法就是，我們少矯校其實也有參酌學生輔導法，有實施三級輔導的處遇，以目前來講，我們各校都有設置專輔人力，以4校來講，專輔人力含國教署補助的，目前4校有35名，特教老師有10名、輔導老師有27名，現在本署也有在試辦心社專輔人力的試辦計畫，目前預計執行到114年底，我們考慮到……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是如同您說的，它是試辦、它到114年底，我們再次強調，在我們的版本裡面，在第一條，我們光是簡單的盤點就發現第一條沒有納入少矯學校，第二條，明列少矯學校的主管機關為法務部，第三條，關於學校的定義，我們希望不要再次排除少矯校，第四，相關的申訴適用少矯校相關規範。","剛剛您所說又是試辦計畫，我們上次之前在特教部分聽到的也是試辦計畫，因為我時間有限，是不是允許我們之後再開啟相關會議討論？"],["劉組長嘉勝：委員不好意思，我再澄清一下，我剛剛講的試辦計畫是我們打算再請增18名，先前我報告的數字是現有的人數。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們會再討論，可以嗎？部長，謝謝您剛剛的支持，關於少矯校的學生納入學輔法相關範疇裡面，這個非常重要。法務部請回，謝謝。","剛剛非常多委員都在談數字上升，我就不再多說，部長您來自學界，你認為很多教育現場的學術研究，作為教育政策指導這件事情重不重要？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想有一個大樣本更接近實際情境的研究，作為……"],["陳委員培瑜：大樣本是告訴我們現場發生了什麼事情，可是這些樣本或者是這些現象到底背後的因素是什麼，部長，我相信我們所有人真的都沒有那麼清楚，有人講了3C、有人講了家庭教育、有人講了社區、有人講了霸凌、有人講了毒品，但是每一個個案身上所展現出來的因素都不一樣。","我們辦公室一直在拜託教育部、一直在拜託衛福部做相關的死因回溯研究，目前衛福部只有做0到6歲，而且那個資料的盤點相對簡單，但是複雜的，孩子們從1歲到14歲，死因第三名是自殺，15到24歲的死因第二名是自殺，可是我們大人到底了不了解孩子們出了什麼事情？在去年的數字200個自殺個案當中，如果有機會做質性研究、量化研究，協助現場的老師，也協助家長，甚至也協助地方學輔諮中心的專輔人員，大家共同去找出背後可能性、可以歸因的因素，難道這件事情不重要嗎？如果我們只有看到人數上升，但我們不知道背後的因素。部長，我們的版本裡面想要拜託教育部納入相關的考慮，中央主管機關應該針對學生自殺、自殺未遂、嚴重自我傷害個案，逐案回顧調查研究，每年公布研究報告；前項的調查，我們認為還要包含這些因素。部長，這個不是我自己從天上掉下來的想法，在國外，已經在英國、美國、歐洲及澳洲都有相關研究正在進行。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上委員所關心的也是我在教育部內部裡面跟我們同仁所要求的，也就是說，我們在未來……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以有機會納入？"],["鄭部長英耀：其實過去我們每一次，甚至每個禮拜、甚至每個月固定的案例分析，能夠建構各個學校、各個地區一些學生的真正問題，以因應城市的差異，或者許多學生的問題樣態能夠有一個更好的因應策略、輔導策略。我非常同意委員所關心的，也指正的……"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長、謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上就是我們希望未來一定要從更專業的介入，更多科學的一些證據累積，作為我們心理輔導、支持學生發展的力量。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，所以我們就往這個方向努力，在修法上，就算不能列在第七條之一，如果它有機會往別條去放，但是部長您已經公開支持相關的研究是重要的，對嗎？在您過往的工作當中，您確實也這樣做。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，沒關係，時間有限，就先這樣，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 18 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員許智傑等25\n人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生\n輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正\n草案」案；九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審查\n委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具\n「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分\n條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員郭昱晴等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員郭\n國文等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員郭國文等 19 人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條\n文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員萬\n美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條\n及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正\n草案」案；二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十\n五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十六、審查委員林\n月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案(僅進行詢答)","agenda_id":"1136601_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.58284375,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.16346875,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.48346875,"end":97.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.00721875,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.52971875,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.65159375000002,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.52971875,"end":238.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.79534375000003,"end":242.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.18284375000002,"end":258.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.25221875,"end":260.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.47971875,"end":266.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.36471875,"end":315.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.44909375000003,"end":267.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.74534375,"end":358.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.74721875,"end":386.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.22784375000003,"end":397.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.87596875,"end":398.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.28096875,"end":420.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.29846875000004,"end":428.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.30159375000005,"end":428.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.16221875,"end":432.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.33909375,"end":518.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.74284375,"end":440.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.50284375,"end":525.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.24409375,"end":569.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.37471875,"end":528.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.03284375,"end":528.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.64034375,"end":528.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.74159375,"end":557.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.96721875,"end":583.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.73721875,"end":588.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.20034375,"end":593.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.6384687500001,"end":595.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.27534375,"end":598.92471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.155,"end":7.139,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長"},{"start":16.432,"end":42.759,"text":"部長早安剛剛所有委員都在問的是專輔人力那跟部長分享專輔人力是第11條但是還有第10條的學校裡面的專業輔導教師所以這是所有委員還有所有現場的老師們的哀嚎如果人數真的可以增加經費也可以增加我覺得最可怕下一個問題我要趕快讓部長知道也許部長您現在不會有答案可是部長拜託您在"},{"start":43.539,"end":46.141,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":74.563,"end":90.658,"text":"所以回到人力培育這件事情,我們到底還可以做什麼?拜託教育部一併納入思考,好嗎?因為剛剛都沒有委員提到這件事情,但是這才是最可怕的事情。也就是說我們人數就算補上來,錢給齊了,地方政府依然請不到人。不管是地方學府資資中心第11條專輔人員或是第10條學校裡面的輔導老師,一樣會請不到人,好嗎?部長這個部分請問你有什麼見解?"},{"start":98.412,"end":124.492,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒確實這也是我們在這一次的一個修法裡邊我們很清楚在這一個如果快速的就是財源沒有問題我們的師資的一個培育還遠遠沒有辦法跟上我們所期待的但是我們確實也在努力在從師培師從一些在職老師裡邊怎麼樣去增能然後能夠真正能夠發揮專業所用我想這也是我們在盤點在努力的"},{"start":129.576,"end":156.265,"text":"部長你講兩個關鍵一個是失陪端一個是在職正能所以我們就要提到為什麼在職正能這件事情下一頁我們來看另外一個我們現在看到的問題目前我們看不到關於矯正學校如何被納入學輔法裡面考量部長我們先不管法務部的立場我想要問部長您身為一個基層教育工作者也是大學校長你在教育的立場你贊不贊成把矯正學校的學生納入學生輔導法的法規範酬"},{"start":159.987,"end":183.375,"text":"我想這個小鎮的學生我們本來就希望他到最後能夠回歸到正常的一個學校。他確實在一個特定的一個時空裡邊有一些特殊的這個時段的一個處遇,他當然有他的一個特殊的一個需求。那目標我們都是希望他能夠回到一般的學校。"},{"start":183.575,"end":204.71,"text":"我可以請法務部表示你們的態度跟意見嗎?因為學生,矯正學校的學生目前你們可能說會有少角學校儲育實施條例而目前少角學校儲育實施條例的規劃狀況又是什麼?你們打算什麼時候送行政院?難道我們在這次學輔法的修法過程當中我們要再一次遺漏這些學生嗎?"},{"start":205.65,"end":224.66,"text":"來自少角校的校長告訴我們我們從特教端之前已經跟教育部反映過從特教端孩子們需要協助沒有被接住現在回到學生輔導法我們要再次漏掉這些小孩嗎剛剛張偉已經講了非常多極端的悲傷的令人悲傷的個案新北市割喉案的那個孩子他就是這個狀況"},{"start":225.92,"end":237.454,"text":"當時的案子他們也都承認,中間有漏接。這一次在學輔法,我們要再次強調,請把少小學校的孩子納入法規。請問法務部你們的態度,目前的規劃是什麼?跟委員報告。"},{"start":243.357,"end":247.02,"text":"目前的工作進度是什麼目前我們現在在113年3月12號已經送到院裡面去了"},{"start":267.421,"end":279.773,"text":"那所以有跟教育部討論嗎關於相關學生輔導的辦法跟相關的理念還有怎麼樣實施然後原本的三級輔導制在校角校裡面依然成立嗎因為軍校警校在10年前就已經納入學生輔導法的規定但是角校並沒有納入去年修過平等教育法"},{"start":284.117,"end":312.939,"text":"校園性別平等教育法均僅繳校也已經納入但是在這一次學復法裡面我們依然沒有看見所以我們辦公室基本上也已經要求法務部跟我們辦公室進行討論所以後續的相關規劃剛剛教育部長也說了站在教育支持孩子的角度他們必須要被納入但是我知道繳校的主管機關是法務部我們尊重法務部的判斷但是站在支持孩子的立場到底法務部跟教育部合起來我們還可以多做些什麼"},{"start":313.459,"end":339.421,"text":"是不是有待我們之後繼續討論?跟委員報告一下目前我們的做法就是目前其實我們少角校其實我們也參著那個學生輔導法有實施三級輔導的處域那以目前來講我們各校都有設置那個專輔人力以四校來講就專輔人力含國教署補助的目前四校有35名"},{"start":341.443,"end":352.79,"text":"那特教老師有10名,輔導老師有27名那現在我們本署也有在試辦新社專輔人力的試辦請人計畫目前預計執行到114年底那我們考慮到"},{"start":358.573,"end":385.642,"text":"如同您說的他是事辦他到114年底我們再次強調我們的版本裡面我們希望在第一條我們光是簡單的盤點就發現第一條沒有納入少角學校第二條名列少角學校主管機關為法務部第三學校定義我們希望不要再次排除少角校第四相關的申訴適用少角校相關規範剛剛您所說又是事辦計劃我們上次之前在特教部分聽到的是事辦計劃因為我時間有限是否允許我們之後再開啟相關會議討論"},{"start":387.502,"end":387.823,"text":"請回法務部"},{"start":409.183,"end":420.172,"text":"剛剛非常多委員都在談數字上升我就不再多說部長您來自學界你認為很多教育現場的學術研究作為教育政策指導這件事情重不重要?"},{"start":421.305,"end":449.766,"text":"我想有一個大樣本跟接近實際的一個情境的一個研究大樣本是告訴我們現場發生了什麼事情可是這些樣本或者是這些現象到底背後的因素是什麼我相信部長我們所有人都沒有真的那麼清楚有人講了3C有人講了家庭教育有人講了社區有人講了霸凌有人講了毒品但是每一個個案身上所展現出來的因素都不一樣"},{"start":450.186,"end":459.712,"text":"我們辦公室一直在拜託教育部一直在拜託衛福部相關的死因回溯研究目前衛福部只有做0到6歲而且那個是相對資料盤點相對簡單但是複雜的孩子們從1歲到14歲在死因第三名自殺15到24歲第二名自殺"},{"start":469.298,"end":490.294,"text":"但是我們大人到底了不了解孩子們出了什麼事情在去年的數字200個自殺個案當中如果有機會做執行研究、量化研究協助現場的老師也協助家長甚至也協助地方學輔資中心的專輔人員大家共同去找出背後可能性可以歸因的因素難道這件事情不重要嗎?"},{"start":491.155,"end":517.2,"text":"如果我們只有看到人數上升但我們不知道背後的因素部長我們的版本裡面想要拜託教育部納入相關的考慮中央主管機關應該針對學生自殺、自殺未遂、嚴重自我傷害逐案回顧調查研究然後每年公布研究報告前項的調查我們認為還要包含這些因素部長這個不是我自己從天上掉下來的想法在國外已經在英國跟美國跟歐洲、澳洲都有相關研究報告"},{"start":517.68,"end":541.572,"text":"此事事實上委員所關心的也是我在內部教育部裡邊跟我們同仁這一個要求的。也就是說我們在未來刑務法過去我們每一個次的甚至每個禮拜甚至每個月固定的一個案例的一個分析然後能夠建構各個學校各個地區的一些真正學生的問題然後有一些"},{"start":542.612,"end":553.299,"text":"議員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":570.329,"end":588.637,"text":"謝謝部長所以我們就往這個方向努力在修法就算不能列在七條之一如果他有機會往別條去放但是部長您已經公開支持相關的研究是重要的對嗎在你過往的工作當中您確實也這樣做好謝謝部長那好沒關係時間有限就先講謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝部長謝謝陳佩玉委員好接下來我們請葛如君委員"}]}},{"id":"154240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154240","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1c132ab06e5a438b8309e96bb53525717ee23585586e40b3a280b508ef2157c7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:25:31 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10:38:59","影片長度":"00:13:28","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:25:31+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:38:59+08:00","duration":808,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":29,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-29"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":230,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩請參謀總長梅家樹上將。"],["主席：請梅總長。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：好久不見了。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["王委員定宇：辛苦了，很高興看到你來到我們委員會，當然按照憲法，有些問題你可以回答，有些問題你不能回答，所以待會就教於總長，如果你認為不適合回答的，你就直接講沒有關係。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們這次漢光演習其實有幾個重點，包含實時，就是敵人不會分夜間太晚不打仗，實時實地熟悉戰場，那是我們的優勢，其中有一個點我比較關注的是去中心化，因為去中心化是俄烏戰爭美國他們濱海戰鬥團提出的一個新的概念，去中心化就是我們指揮管制在指揮鏈中斷的狀況下，作戰單位還能不能獨立接戰？我們要怎麼去驗證這個東西，我第一個要請教就是，各單位要能獨立作戰，那每個單位都要熟悉ROE接戰規則，否則不曉得接戰規則，又找不到長官請示，我們怕發生這個狀況，所以才要去中心化。所以本席請教總長的第一個問題就是，我們現在設定的最小的接戰單位，也就是要熟悉能夠根據ROE作出指令的，你們現在設定是到多小？是到班、排還是連？陸、海、空軍當然有另外一個單位啦，請教一下總長。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：以地面部隊來跟委員做一個說明，如果是一個小部隊的特戰編組，它也可以依照我們原來設定給予它的任務……"],["王委員定宇：特戰編組有時候是一個squad而已。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是的，我們賦予它任務，賦予它一個授權，然後賦予它一個責任遞進，然後它也具備獨立作戰的能力，當它沒有在依照這些所有的達到它的一個條件的時候，它就可以依照我們已經授權給它的、我們已經告訴它的ROE及相關作為，遂行指揮官的意圖。"],["王委員定宇：總長，這裡面牽涉到幾個部分，第一個就是我們的部隊過去習慣請示上級，連看到無人機都要「搖拐拐」，那現在你們在每一個最小的作戰單位，都給一個接戰指令、授權範圍，那是還要請示，只是斷聯了，作戰區跟作戰區、上跟下斷聯了，才能夠採取所謂去中心化，自己做決策，還是我們就訓練習慣於你已經有這個範圍、你已經有這個規範了，你就去執行，不用再請示？是哪一種？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：跟委員報告，其實兩者是互補的。"],["王委員定宇：不是，這兩個習慣不一樣，我如果習慣還是要請示，我請示問不到了才來做決定，跟已經知道範圍了，我是這個squad可能一個五人小組的小隊長或一個排長，我根據我得到指令，就決定這樣幹下去了，這兩個的習慣真的不一樣啊！"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是真的不一樣，第一、我們在所謂的去中心化，大家常常會認為只有在一個條件下，所謂指管通聯已經中斷，其實去中心化的指管非常重要的一件事情是要求快速，能夠依照敵情判斷、依照指揮官授予的任務採行行動，不見得要……"],["王委員定宇：梅總長，你的回答有對到我真正想問的，我們到底是在通訊鏈C4ISR中斷的時候才採取授權，還是把我們的部隊文化整個改變？美軍是這樣子喔，你有個目標……"],["梅參謀總長家樹：文化都會改變。"],["王委員定宇：你有個方法、你有個授權範圍，就可以勇於、敢於做決定嘛。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以你現在是後者。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是的。"],["王委員定宇：那這是我們中華民國部隊很大的變革。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是的，但是它還是會有一個中心化的指揮，這個不變。"],["王委員定宇：當然，指揮鏈一定會在啦！"],["梅參謀總長家樹：對，但是會有去中心化的行動。報告委員，我這樣子來說明。"],["王委員定宇：對，就是指揮鏈，授權、命令、目標……"],["梅參謀總長家樹：都很明確。"],["王委員定宇：當然那個有中心……"],["梅參謀總長家樹：對。"],["王委員定宇：但是進到行動的時候，可以知道我這個範圍，根據我手上的工具跟我得到的授權範圍來決定我怎麼做。那我就要問你第二個問題了。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["王委員定宇：那接戰指令，ROE、接戰規則就要很普遍地下放，甚至到單位。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：甚至到單兵。"],["王委員定宇：對，是到單兵。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：我們今年是到單兵。"],["王委員定宇：我們現在有到這樣的程度嗎？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：跟委員報告，我們從去年開始推動，應該講ROE我們推動幾年了，但是我們現階段又把它重新做一些調整。今年的ROE，在今年漢光我們會驗證到每一個單兵手上就會有一個他的交戰規則，告訴他在什麼樣的狀況下，就可以採行行動、就可以使用武器裝備。"],["王委員定宇：這個很好，所以不同的單位，其實接戰指令不一樣……"],["梅參謀總長家樹：完全不一樣，陸、海、空通通都不一樣。"],["王委員定宇：這就變成是，坦白講以前我們漢光是用演的啦！set好的比較多。現在你這個就不能演了。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["王委員定宇：我現在要瞭解，這個班的班長可能會不見，不只是通訊的問題，那每一個單兵知不知道他的接戰指令跟目標範圍？所以這個變革是提升戰力，增加部隊彈性還有存活率，這其實是往實戰化去做處理。本席認為，國軍勇於做改變，這要給你肯定，而且前幾年磨合、透過演習讓我們的各作戰單位、各最小單位習慣作決定、勇於作決定，作錯決定的時候，有時候甚至還要鼓勵一下；而過去是你自己作決定，可能要面對處罰嘛！所以總長預計這一次的漢光40號之後，針對去中心化以及ROE這整個的普遍訓練，你們應該會有一個檢討報告吧？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：會。"],["王委員定宇：也會有一個精進的方向嘛？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：會。"],["王委員定宇：那個會不會列機密？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：這次會第一次做，但是有些的……我們整個漢光演習的這些檢討都是列為機密。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為我們過去講了很多ROE的東西。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是的。"],["王委員定宇：但去中心化的實兵演練，這是第一次。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：確實。"],["王委員定宇：確實是第一次。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是，其實也是一些經驗的累積之後，讓我們可以做到這一步。"],["王委員定宇：那軍令系統在推動這一套的時候，改革總是會有阻力嘛！沒有阻力的改革通常是假的啦！你在推動當中有沒有遇到困難？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：其實就是觀念的建立，是我們第一個碰到的困難。"],["王委員定宇：其實觀念，坦白講，我們這邊那麼多老朋友都是將領，越資深的將領，觀念要改變越困難；小兵要改，他聽命令就改了嘛！所以你在推動當中……"],["梅參謀總長家樹：報告委員，連我也是比較資深的，所以我也要改變。"],["王委員定宇：我是誤以為你很年輕，但我就是……就是說觀念固化不是壞事。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為根據信念，我做到中將、上將，做到少將，那個觀念來自於經年累月所累積的專業，我不認為那是壞的事情。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["王委員定宇：但當你一個變革要去調整這個的時候，通常是越訓練有素、專業在心的，那個越難改啦！所以我剛才問了，不知道總長方不方便講你在推動去中心化和ROE，這個下放到很基層、到單兵身上，坦白講指揮官反而是事前的計畫要做得周詳，作戰的行動反而是下放到……"],["梅參謀總長家樹：指揮官的責任更重。"],["王委員定宇：對。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：指揮官的責任更重。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有遇到阻力？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：應該是說，我們在指揮官要完整規劃剛才我跟委員提到的五件事情，第一個，要給下級非常清楚的任務還有他要執行的內容。第二個，要非常明確地授權他能做什麼事情，包括授權的範圍，甚至接替指揮的這些都在裡面。第三，要給他規劃出非常精準的責任區，這些東西在指揮官是個挑戰。"],["王委員定宇：對，這五個東西是很大的挑戰。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：沒有一個不是挑戰，跟委員報告。"],["王委員定宇：我請教，你們過去在官校的時候有學過這些東西嗎？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：報告委員，我當時也對這個是一張白紙，也是這幾年的累積……"],["王委員定宇：這跟我們過去將領的養成其實完全不一樣，因為你事前要想得很透徹，這一塊、那一塊是什麼，誰去執行、怎麼執行，帶隊的人不在了誰接上來、通訊斷了之後怎麼弄？有很多很多細節，所以坦白講，這應該會遇到一些困難點，那你們對……"],["梅參謀總長家樹：這是我們必須要做的。"],["王委員定宇：檢討是你們的機密，本席尊重。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["王委員定宇：否則坦白講，我們委員會應該要瞭解，臺灣首次進行這樣子的ROE和去中心化的實兵演練，那個檢討如果在不涉機敏之下，我們也請顧部長參酌看看，可以讓我們委員會瞭解，但機密我們是尊重。","部長先上來，還有海軍參謀長這兩位，其他先請回。另外，就一個制度的調整，這次中共的潛艦在臺海中線以西，大概靠近金門附近，我看了舊的資料，大概那個座標有3次中共的潛艦在那邊被發現，到目前為止有確認型號了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有。"],["王委員定宇：它是什麼型號？不能講可以，我從來不為難你們，不方便講就不方便講，我猜是094嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：是……"],["王委員定宇：因為那個駝背駝得那麼明顯。它是一路浮航，還是到那邊才浮起來？"],["顧部長立雄：應該一路浮航。"],["王委員定宇：應該是一路浮航，因為在那邊再浮起來，就是另外一個事情了。那它出現在這裡的原因，你們估計是什麼？"],["顏次長有賢：報告委員，我是情次室次長。"],["王委員定宇：請說。"],["顏次長有賢：一般來講，第一個，它還是回到母基地去做維修，也有可能……"],["王委員定宇：大修的時間。"],["顏次長有賢：對，因為畢竟浮航，一般來講我們可以排除它戰術……"],["王委員定宇：它有沒有升旗子？"],["顏次長有賢：目前我們看……這不便跟委員說……"],["王委員定宇：OK，不便說我尊重。"],["顏次長有賢：所以從頭到尾我們……"],["王委員定宇：我今天要問的是另外一個問題，澎湖的漁民去那邊抓小管，拍到這個相片提供出來，對我們國軍有沒有幫助？"],["顏次長有賢：當然是有，所有聯合情監偵包含這些漁……"],["王委員定宇：這些其實是很重要。"],["顏次長有賢：是，我們平常都在做。"],["王委員定宇：因為海洋浩瀚，軍力有限，民力無限嘛！所以本席今天這1分鐘真正要講的是，我們在2019年1月15日國防部核定「中華民國國籍漁船目標通傳報獎勵作業辦法」，所以看到外國船艦，包含中國的，是有錢可以領的，對不對？"],["顏次長有賢：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們分成軍用、民用、公務，還有24浬外、24浬內等等，科研船也在內，獎金大概就是3萬、2萬、1萬不等。","下一個表，你仔細看，這幾年共軍對臺灣威脅的質跟量都是上升，沒錯吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["王委員定宇：那怎麼會我們漁民有獎金可以拿的，卻逐年一直遞減，甚至今年都還是零？我要先請問，發現094的這一艘漁船它可以申請獎金吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，因為舊的作法部分可能在執行上面有點……但是我們有聯繫到當事的相關部分……"],["王委員定宇：主席站起來了，我尊重。我現在就是說，獎金越領越少，是誘因不足還是漁民不知道？所以本席建議三件事情，你們參考，第一個，現在本國籍的船在外海的不會只有漁船，還有遊艇、海釣船，所以是不是修訂獎勵對象，從本國籍「漁船」放寬到本國籍「船舶」？這是第一個建議，增加國軍獲得目標通傳的民力範圍，對國軍的戰力是往外延伸。第二個，獎勵的限制，你剛才講的是這個，你們已經在掌控中的你就不發獎金了。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["王委員定宇：那漁船會說：我跟你講的，你都說掌控中，那算了。所以我認為部長可以研究看看，我們本軍艦艇已經在監控中的、被發現的是不是要核發獎金？但是像一般的刑事犯罪都有分成第一個發現、第二個發現、第三個發現，你可以依次遞減。最後一個，獎金是不是該適度提高以增加誘因？這三點供國防部參考，好不好？部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：委員提的建議，我們正在研擬當中，都會納入我們的考量，我們確實是在研擬。"],["王委員定宇：OK，儘快而且公告周知。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：讓水面上的船隻都知道有這個可以幫助國軍的方法，還有獎金可以拿。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。待會兒沈伯洋委員質詢完畢以後，休息5分鐘。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-29","speakers":["馬文君","賴士葆","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","黃國昌","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","林憶君","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢；二、審查\n本院委員馬文君等 21 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它的一個,不見得要回報。"},{"start":234.346,"end":257.146,"text":"有對到我真的想問的我們到底是在通訊鏈C4ISR中斷的時候才採取授權還是把我們的部隊的文化整個改變美軍是這樣子喔你有個目標文化都會改變對你有個方法你有個授權範圍你就可以勇於敢於做決定嘛所以你現在是後者"},{"start":257.806,"end":258.767,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":287.586,"end":311.292,"text":"那這樣接戰指令、ROE、接戰規則就要很普遍的下放到很基層的單位。甚至到單兵。我們今年是到單兵。我們現在有到這樣程度嗎?跟委員報告,我們從去年開始推動,應該講ROE的推動我們推動幾年了。但是我們現階段又把它去做一些的這個重新的去做調整。"},{"start":311.912,"end":338.919,"text":"我們今年的ROE在今年漢光我們會驗證到每一個單兵手上就會有一個他的交戰規則告訴你在什麼樣的狀況下你就可以採行行動你就可以使用武器裝備所以不同的單位他其實完全不一樣這個就是變成以前坦白講以前我們漢光是用演的啦C好的比較多啦現在你這個就不能演了我現在瞭解你這個班"},{"start":340.387,"end":369.842,"text":"那班長可能會不見啊不只是通信的問題那每一個單兵知不知道我的接戰指令跟我的目標範圍嗎所以這一個變革其實是提升戰力增加部隊彈性還有存活率這個其實是一個往實戰化去做處理那本席認為國軍勇於去做改變這要給您肯定而且前幾年磨合透過演習讓我們的各作戰單位各最小單位習慣做決定勇於做決定"},{"start":371.158,"end":385.284,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":390.726,"end":414.874,"text":"也會有一個精進的方向嗎?會。那個會不會列機密?這一次會第一次做,但是有些的不...我們整個漢光的演習的這些檢討都是列為機密。對,因為我們過去講了很多ROE的東西。是的。但去中心化的實兵演練,這是第一次。確實。確實是第一次。是,其實也是一些經驗的累積之後,讓我們可以做到這一步。那軍令系統在推動這一套的時候,"},{"start":415.939,"end":432.382,"text":"改革總是會有阻力嗎?沒有阻力的改革通常是假的啦。你在推動當中有沒有遇到困難?其實就是觀念的建立是我們的第一個碰到的一個困難。那觀念其實,坦白講我們這邊那麼多老朋友都是將領,越資深的將領觀念要改變越困難啦。"},{"start":433.503,"end":443.486,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":462.051,"end":490.486,"text":"所以我剛才問了不知道總長方不方便講你在推動這個去中心化跟ROE這個下放到很基層到單兵身上了坦白講指揮官反而是事前的計畫要做的周詳作戰的行動指揮官的責任更重有沒有遇到阻力應該講說我們在指揮官要完整規劃剛才我跟委員提到的五件事情第一個要給他非常給下級非常清楚的任務"},{"start":491.987,"end":513.922,"text":"還有他要執行的這個內容還有第二個要非常明確的授權他能做什麼事情還有授權的範圍甚至接替指揮的這些都在裡面第三要給他規劃出非常精準的責任區這些東西指揮官是個挑戰這五個東西是很大的挑戰沒有一個不是挑戰我請教您過去在官校的時候有學過這些東西嗎"},{"start":515.082,"end":530.414,"text":"二、報委員我當時也是對這個是一張白紙也是這幾年的累積這跟我們過去將領的養成其實完全不一樣欸因為你事情要想得很透徹這一塊這一塊是什麼誰去執行怎麼執行帶隊的人不在了誰接上來"},{"start":532.214,"end":559.717,"text":"然後通訊斷了之後怎麼弄,這有很多很多細節。所以坦白講這應該會有遇到一些困難點。檢討是你們機密本席尊重啦,否則坦白講我們委員會應該要了解臺灣首次進行了這樣子的ROE跟去中心化的實兵演練。那個檢討如果在不設機密下我們也請顧部長參著看看,可以讓我們委員會可以了解。但是機密我們是尊重。好,您先請回喔。"},{"start":560.277,"end":588.354,"text":"不,部長先請坐,今天好像有啦,部長先上來還有我們海軍參謀長兩位,其他先請回另外是一個制度的調整這一次中共的潛艦在台海中線以西大概靠近金門附近我看了舊的資料大概那個座標有三次潛艦在那邊被發現啦,中共的潛艦那到目前為止有確認型號了嗎?"},{"start":590.299,"end":618.406,"text":"有。他是什麼型號?不能講,我從來不為難你們,不方便講就不方便講。我猜是094嘛,凍94嘛。因為那個駝背駝得那麼明顯。他是一路扶航還是到那邊才扶起來?應該是一路扶航。應該是一路扶航,因為在那邊再扶起來就另外一個事情了。那他出現在這裡的原因你們估計是什麼?"},{"start":622.231,"end":646.225,"text":"一般來講第一個還是回到母基地做維修大修的時間畢竟服好嘛一般來講我們可以排除他做贊助他有沒有生旗子目前我們看這不便跟委員說報告不便做我尊重我今天要問的是另外一個問題澎湖的漁民去那邊抓小管拍到這個相片提供出來對我們國軍有沒有幫助"},{"start":648.767,"end":670.002,"text":"當然是有啦,所有零二七天審判這些……這些其實很重要,因為海洋浩瀚嘛,軍力有限,民力無限嘛,所以本期今天真正這一分鐘我要講的是我們在2019年1月15號國防部有核定中華民國國籍的漁船目標通船通報獎勵作業辦法,所以看到"},{"start":670.722,"end":688.381,"text":"外國船艦包含中國的是有錢可以領的,對不對?是所以中國我們分成軍用、民用、公務還有24海里外、24海里內等等等等那科研船也在裡面,獎金大概就是3萬、2萬、1萬不等那你看我看下一個表齁,你仔細看喔"},{"start":689.845,"end":706.193,"text":"這幾年共軍對台灣的威脅的值跟量都是上升沒錯吧?是那怎麼我們漁民有獎金可以拿的卻逐年一直遞減甚至今年都是還是零欸我第一個先請問一下094發現了這一艘漁船他可以申請獎金吧?"},{"start":708.144,"end":708.424,"text":"報告主席"},{"start":726.957,"end":754.068,"text":"我們現在本國籍的船在外海的不會只有漁船啦還有遊艇還有海釣船所以是不是修訂獎勵對象從本國籍漁船放寬到本國籍船舶這第一個建議這增加對國軍獲得目標的名利的範圍這對國軍的戰力是往外延伸嘛第二個獎勵的限制你們你剛剛講的是這個你們已經在掌控中的你就不發獎金了"},{"start":755.29,"end":781.889,"text":"是那漁船會說我跟你講的你都說掌控中那算了所以我認為這個部長可以研究看看我們本軍艦艇已經在監控中的被發現的是不是要合法獎金但是跟像我們一般的刑事犯罪都有分成第一個發現、第二個發現、第三個發現你可以依次遞減最後一個獎金是不是該適度提高來增加誘因這三點供國防部參考好不好部長這樣可以嗎"},{"start":783.49,"end":800.06,"text":"委員提的建議我們都就正在研擬當中那都會納入我們的考量我們確實在研擬OK,儘快而且公告周知讓水面上的船隻都知道有這個可以幫助國軍的方法還有獎金可以拿好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝待會兒沈博洋委員諮詢"}]}},{"id":"154239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd127b4bff572751cae01867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a085a8753002aa8915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"10:31:32 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主席有請常務次長還有香港局葉局長邱委員早次長早"},{"start":23.287,"end":37.666,"text":"臺灣對外貿易以海運為主,近年來我們看到鴻海危機,還有貿易戰,區域性的塞港現象持續。對航運的貿易造成問題,林次長,對業者有沒有提供哪方面的協助,以掌握航運的市場變化?"},{"start":39.898,"end":59.663,"text":"報告委員,我們的航運界都非常強,我們基本上這幾家大航商,他們在疫情期間有充分的擴展自己的船隊。這一陣子因為鴻海危機加上運價的疲軟再又恢復,所以航商也會根據市場的情況再做調度。"},{"start":60.623,"end":62.704,"text":"航港局2020年成立的國際海運運輸平穩工作小組還有定期召開跨部會的會議嗎?"},{"start":83.64,"end":98.435,"text":"報告委員因為在疫情之後整個供需已經恢復穩定那當然近期因為鴻海危機還有巴拿馬運河的這個枯水的情形就如我們次長剛剛提到運價有持續上漲這個現象"},{"start":100.016,"end":116.429,"text":"我們目前網站上的評論專頁是持續在提供我們航商還有進出口業者相關最新的資訊但是定期召會部分這一部分我們會試整個變化情形有需要就來恢復啟動定期的召會"},{"start":117.097,"end":137.594,"text":"所以是沒有那有沒有成立新的小組或是其他的機制協助目前還是以這個小組來運作那先前在疫情期間我想我們跟進出口業者還有國際行商有做了很好的配合那對於國際行商我想還有進出口業者我想都得到很正面的回應那有沒有針對2025年多變的航運貿易情勢來做討論"},{"start":143.426,"end":162.963,"text":"這個部分我想2025年的部分目前因為這個市場上的觀察是這個在下半年因為疫情期間許多大的航商都有投入新船的建造所以下半年應該是會有新的運輪的投入所以看起來應該是運價會持續一個會比較這個平穩的一個態勢"},{"start":169.689,"end":177.779,"text":"我們看到就是交通部有提供書面報告說明智慧港灣港口的相關計畫推動還有辦理那有沒有針對治安來做維護升級呢"},{"start":181.476,"end":183.777,"text":"推動海洋觀光本席提到桃園市,香港局近期針對桃園"},{"start":210.251,"end":235.349,"text":"臺灣市觀音區的白沙甲燈塔有火化的計畫,次長您知道嗎?我曉得目前因為它有文資法的考慮,因為是國定古蹟所以基本上,香港局在推論過程會依據文資法來看如何再利用這個部分會提供燈塔的火化有沒有提出相關的啟程?"},{"start":238.09,"end":267.507,"text":"各位委員不知道我們在上個月已經依照文職法就是啟動這個所謂的修復再利用計畫的擬定委託專業單位來進行這個計畫擬定那預計是在明年的6月要跟文化部來提報這個是因為它是國定古蹟依照文職法必須要跟文化部來提報所以要到明年的6月對 那過程中我想我們會跟市政府這邊還有地方這邊來多做溝通"},{"start":269.126,"end":283.29,"text":"希望我們的港務區可以多與我們桃園市政府多進行溝通那疫情後那郵輪產業也逐漸的復甦那郵輪靠駁的數量持續增加那我們看到今年的數據從113年482艘次然後到相較於前年327那成長了47%那今年出港的旅客有望達到81.6萬人次那我們看到這張簡報那這邊有沒有就是"},{"start":295.853,"end":316.566,"text":"針對我們的港口推動宣傳方式還有什麼加強的計畫嗎我們針對我們港口就是訂博會都免費那你同樣的一艘如果說有進出5次以上我們大概旅客那個旅客費用我們全部免"},{"start":318.027,"end":344.537,"text":"免費那目前在我們利用那個COVID-19那另外我們也有一些獎勵的計畫就是吸引航商或是旅行社來來那在COVID-19期間的話目前我們所有的港口的一些設施全部都已經整理完畢隨時都可以應付航商像前一陣子"},{"start":358.42,"end":373.903,"text":"本席也一直很關心就是馬祖的觀光發展那葉局長在6月11號的時候您也說到就是7月航港局已經構思要未來如何像跟我們的新台馬輪可做觀光結合的元素那未來要如何來推動"},{"start":377.528,"end":392.84,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想新台馬人是去年我們4月份新投入的這個新的交通船那整個品質得到這個民眾的這個肯定那我們也很希望他朝這個觀光的這個方向來發展"},{"start":393.921,"end":413.436,"text":"目前最主要的問題因為他一週有12個航班也就是說一週六天裡面都有他的航班他只有禮拜二是航休所以在交通的需求上他擔負了台馬之間很重要的一個角色跟任務我們怎麼樣來朝觀光的發展我想有兩種做法"},{"start":415.638,"end":443.177,"text":"第一個是配合既有的航班我們可以搭配比如說我們今年7月份澎湖文要啟動的這個模式跟旅行業者搭配馬祖這邊觀望的遊程還有在船上的相關的活動就既有的航班就來規劃那另外一方面另外一種做法是因為我們在這個馬祖還有另外一艘大型的交通船叫台馬直行目前是負責南竿到東營之間"},{"start":444.198,"end":452.48,"text":"那如果可以來替行新台馬倫的話我們就可以來做更多元的一個思考跟規劃OK 好 了解好 謝謝常務市長謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"154238","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154238","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd187f8a8200680b3e001867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a3b0e862d1e2d0f605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:23:05 - 10:31:21","影片長度":"00:08:16","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部就「智慧航安、智慧港灣（港口）相關計畫辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:23:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:31:21+08:00","duration":496,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":423,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時23分）謝謝主席。有請林次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長國顯：徐委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：次長早安。提到智慧航安之前，我想我們應該先看一下桃機漏水事件。桃機漏水事件接連不斷發生，讓很多國人對國家門面的問題感到憂心，也覺得我們應該要提出一個檢討。次長過去兼任過桃機董事長，對整個桃園機場的業務應該很熟悉，這個月6月14號第二航廈再度發生漏水事件，甚至在媒體上面呈現出逃生梯變成瀑布的驚恐畫面，針對這部分，交通部是不是有掌握到相關資訊？"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員提出來，這是6月14號施工的一個狀況，這個工程本來是在處理屋頂漏水問題，他們有一個委外計畫在進行，結果大概在執行過程拆除掉隔離板，又碰到強降雨，所以那天的處理不是很理想，部長已經要求桃機公司，對於未來相關計畫、施工，都要先做好配套的防範措施，也就是不要以為不會下雨，就先把那個隔離層拆掉……"],["徐委員富癸：次長，我們現在只有針對施工廠商……"],["林次長國顯：對，施工廠商也要……"],["徐委員富癸：罰款嘛！罰10萬塊，但問題是不到半年就發生兩次國門漏水狀況，交通部針對桃機或是廠商，有做什麼嗎？"],["林次長國顯：我們有要求桃機未來在執行這類的工程，都要先把應變方案提出來，檢視完才可以處理。"],["徐委員富癸：對，因為就本席掌握到的相關訊息，從2010年起桃機就一直有發生漏水的事故，王前部長在3月25號已經有交代，針對桃機屋頂的防水工程也在施工，但是沒做沒事情，做了又越吃力。"],["林次長國顯：這次就是在執行整個更換，所以就變成……"],["徐委員富癸：這個工程什麼時候可以完成？"],["林次長國顯：這個原來預計是要到明年，原來是這兩年，但是它是階段性處理，不是全部一次處理。"],["徐委員富癸：這樣會不會後續下半年……"],["林次長國顯：所以李部長這次有要求桃機，下次再執行這類工程要先做預備測試，也就是說它執行的時候要把可能漏水的方案跟預防先做好再來執行。"],["徐委員富癸：對，因為我們每次在委員會開會的時候，都有聽到你們說有萬全的準備，但是意外還是頻傳，這實在是比較離譜一點。"],["林次長國顯：是，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其現在我們訂出了今年要有1,000萬人次國際觀光客來臺的目標，在這個狀況下，這是要怎麼交代？"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員，我們再來要求，好不好？因為這個就是在施工前一定要特別注意防範，確實，因為它本意是要去處理漏水的地方。"],["徐委員富癸：結果漏得更嚴重。"],["林次長國顯：結果反而因為下雨，剛好漏下來。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，本席這邊再關心另外一個議題，上次我在委員會有質詢運安會，就是針對波音公司生產的這個飛機事故調查的部分，因為運安會當時回復的狀況是他們有持續在關注，但是本席認為不夠，我們應該也要掌握狀況。請教次長，目前國內有多少架波音的飛機？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，我們飛機應該有一百多架。"],["徐委員富癸：一百多架？"],["林次長國顯：各個公司都有，我們有Airbus跟波音，大概都有平衡來處理，787、777、737-800都有。"],["徐委員富癸：一百多架，數量也不少耶！"],["林次長國顯：對，但是我跟您報告，737MAX我們國內沒有，就是前一陣子出問題比較多的。這一陣子出比較多問題的是787，787的機型我們在它一出現問題時，民航局標準組就有盯住所有的航空公司，要求他們有這種機型的都要注意。第二個問題，您提到一個滿重要的部分，我們在航空裡面叫公正文化，就是說他看到問題應該要提報，提報以後他不用課責這個當事人，甚至不是自己做的也要提報。這次各位應該從新聞上也有看到，有些吹哨者的意見沒有上達到上面，所以我們民航局昨天邀集了國內各大航空公司跟美、日的專家做高峰會議的宣導，甚至上次日本海保機的議題，他們在昨天也有拿出來討論，所以這一類的議題我們民航局會盯著，非常……"],["徐委員富癸：我想我們國內航空都有提到極端氣候跟鳥擊的這個問題，我們也應該要持續掌握，畢竟這個是國內航線飛航一個很重要的關鍵。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分我們還是要求部裡面要持續來掌握。"],["林次長國顯：好。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，針對我目前掌握到的狀況，近五年我們遠洋漁船的事故一年都維持一百多件，其中以機械故障的比例最高，還有船員傷病的部分，當然這個部分我們有要求漁業署這邊要來協助，但是交通部在這個議題上面怎麼來掌握、怎麼來協助漁船的安全？"],["林次長國顯：跟委員報告，因為遠洋漁船出海一次就要好幾個月，甚至半年以上，所以基本上船員的訓練、船的維修都要符合規定，但是遠程過程中勢必會碰到狀況，所以船東一般得在事前做好沿路的配備，就像航空公司一樣，它在某個地方發生狀況，它周邊要有一些協同的廠商或者是合作的業者，來協助他們做保養跟船員的照護，甚至醫療，所以這一類我們會跟漁業署一起來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這部分本席也要求，雖然這個跟漁業署比較有直接的關係，但是交通部也不能置身事外。"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["徐委員富癸：畢竟一趟出去路途都很遙遠，當然還有涉及到很多船員的安全問題，所以這部分我們還是要求，針對這樣的事故，交通部應該要掌握狀況，應該把遠洋事故的件數壓低在每年100件以下。"],["林次長國顯：瞭解，會再麻煩航港局跟漁業署就這一方面看怎麼樣來強化。"],["徐委員富癸：次長，我請教，這個有沒有定期的檢討會議？"],["林次長國顯：我請葉局長說明。"],["葉局長協隆：報告委員，不管是漁船還是一般的商船，我們每一季都有所謂的海事案件精進檢討會議，漁業署是我們一定會邀請的單位之一，因為漁船船員的訓練是由漁業署發證，由他們負責，所以我們針對漁船的海事案件，都會在每一季的海事案件精進檢討會議提出來進行討論。我們會遵照委員剛剛的提醒還有次長提示的方向，看再怎麼樣跟漁業署來加強合作，包括它在國外如果有船舶需要檢修或是檢查的情形，船東都有相關的機制可以來協助。"],["徐委員富癸：因為我們也有很多的國外基地在運作，但我想我們應該也要掌握狀況，本席也要求這個部分，局裡面針對怎麼跟漁業署來合作的這個機制，給我們一份完整的報告，好不好？"],["葉局長協隆：是，我們再提報給委員。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["葉局長協隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，徐委員發言完畢。","現在請邱若華委員發言，邱委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-17","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","蔡其昌","林俊憲","許智傑","何欣純","陳素月","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳亭妃","黃仁","陳冠廷","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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因為我們每次在委員會開會的時候都有聽到我們都有萬全的準備但是意外還是頻傳啊這樣實際是比較離譜一些啦尤其我們先我們訂出了這個今年要有1000萬人次國際觀光客來台的目標啊這個狀況下這是要怎麼對這個謝謝委員我們再來要求啦好不好"},{"start":196.97,"end":220.522,"text":"因為這個就是在施工前一定要特別注意防寒確實因為他本意是要去處理漏水的地方結果漏得更嚴重下雨剛好下來另外本席這邊再關心另外一個議題就是上次我在委員會有質詢我們運安會就針對波音公司生產這個飛機的事故的這個調查的部分那因為運安運安會"},{"start":221.883,"end":231.529,"text":"當時回覆狀況是說他們有持續在關注但是本席認為不夠啦應該我們要掌握的狀況那請教次長我們目前國內有多少波音的飛機"},{"start":233.085,"end":245.24,"text":"報告委員,我們會期應該有100多架,各個公司都有。我們有Airbus跟波音,大概都平衡來處理,787、777、737、800都有。但是我跟您報告,737 MAX我們國內沒有,就是前一陣子出問題比較多。"},{"start":252.268,"end":252.568,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":269.153,"end":269.433,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":299.093,"end":301.014,"text":"國內航空都有提到極端氣候跟鳥籍這個問題我們應該要持續掌握因為畢竟這個是國內航線這個飛航的一個很重要的一個關鍵"},{"start":317.618,"end":343.57,"text":"好那這部分我們還是要求我們部裡面持續的掌握那另外針對我們目前掌握到的狀況就是近5年我們遠洋漁船這個事故一年都維持100多件那其中是以這個機械故障的比例最高然後還有我們船員的傷病那當然我們這部分我們有要求我們漁業署這邊要來協助但是交通部在這個"},{"start":344.73,"end":344.85,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":355.346,"end":383.166,"text":"所以基本上他船員的訓練、船的維修這個都要符合規定但是遠程過程中勢必會碰到狀況所以船東一般得在事前做好這個沿路的配備就像航空公司一樣他在某個地方發生狀況他周邊要有一些協同的廠商或是合作的業者協助他們做保養跟船員的照護甚至醫療"},{"start":384.188,"end":385.921,"text":"所以這一類我們會跟約束一起來處理"},{"start":386.906,"end":414.715,"text":"對,我想這部分就是本席也要求因為雖然這個跟原業屬比較有直接的關係但是我們交通部也不能置身事外因為這個地座處理都很混亂路頭搖彎那當然就是有涉及到我們這個很多船員的一個安全的問題就這部分我們還是要求針對這樣的一個事故的部分交通部應該要掌握狀況然後應該把這個遠洋事故能夠壓低在每年能夠"},{"start":415.776,"end":419.525,"text":"再麻煩香港局跟漁業署就這個方面看怎麼來強化"},{"start":421.767,"end":445.773,"text":"市長請教這個有沒有定期的一個檢討的一個會議我請葉局長報告委員就是針對這個不管是漁船還是一般的商船我們每一季都有所謂的海事案件精進檢討會議那漁業署是我們一定要請的這個單位之一那因為漁船員的訓練是由漁業署這邊來是由他們發證由他們負責"},{"start":448.254,"end":466.218,"text":"所以這個部分我們針對漁船的海事案件都會在這個每一季的海事案件經濟檢討會議提出來來進行討論那會遵照委員剛剛的提醒還有次長剛剛提示的方向我們再加強跟漁業署和怎麼樣來合作"},{"start":466.678,"end":494.924,"text":"包括他在這個國外這個如果有傳播需要檢修或是檢查情形我們這邊也其實院長那邊都有相關的機制可以來協助因為我們也有很多的國外基地在運作啦那我想我們應該掌握狀況那這個本席也要求這個我們具體面是不是一份書面資料針對怎麼跟漁業署來合作這個機制是給我們一份完整的報告是我們會我們跟委員提報好好謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"154237","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154237","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd16c73d7a3cd12a41001867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a60660e2fbd13dbfe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:12:02 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10:22:45","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部就「智慧航安、智慧港灣（港口）相關計畫辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:12:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:22:45+08:00","duration":643,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時12分）謝謝陳素月主席。請一下林次長、葉局長。"],["主席：請林次長、葉局長。"],["李委員昆澤：臺鐵今天有人來嗎？"],["林次長國顯：委員好。臺鐵有代表來。"],["李委員昆澤：這個會期我擔任召委，其實在0403之前，我們就針對交通安全系統的安全、橋梁管理、邊坡管理以及相關隧道的安全，都有召開相關的專題報告或者是進行現場考察，但是還是有相當多的隧道安全以及臺鐵安全，還是民眾、旅客頗為憂心的重要的安全議題。在6月21日下午四點四十九分第229次車在崇德─和仁間的西正線，因為大清水溪的土石流衝擊橋台之後，它的溢流覆蓋在和仁隧道南口明隧道軌面，司機員緊急處置後，最後當然還是撞擊了，列車停在和仁隧道之內，導致第1、2、9車出軌，車下設備多處受損，司機員的手部骨折、8名旅客輕傷等等。針對這個事件，其實我有幾個建議，我稍微整理一下，我們目前的監控人員，我記得你是臺鐵工務處的處長嘛，是不是？處長，我請教一下，行控中心有一個監視牆，它同時有十多個畫面在輪播，但是這個關係到安全的重要的行控中心的監視牆，監看人員只有一名，而且這個畫面是輪播，這樣人力足夠嗎？來，說明一下。"],["謝處長曜宇：報告，這個是足夠的，如果是剛剛講的輪播系統，它是告警系統，就是如果有狀況，它會提供告警，會跳出畫面來的。"],["李委員昆澤：對，這是有告警系統的部分，但如果沒有告警系統，像這一次有嗎？"],["謝處長曜宇：這一次這個是輔助系統的監視系統。"],["李委員昆澤：所以它沒有辦法即時就提供相關的告警訊息嘛？"],["謝處長曜宇：是。"],["李委員昆澤：所以我認為在土石流的潛勢區，我們短期要建立獨立的監看系統，這樣比較安全啦！"],["謝處長曜宇：是，這個部分跟委員報告……"],["李委員昆澤：你們要檢討啦！你們來檢討看看。"],["謝處長曜宇：是。"],["李委員昆澤：對於監看系統，中長期來說，我們必須要做一個全面的盤整，這攸關旅客安全，非常重要。至於告警跟預防的部分，短期是否在一些地區設置擋板，並建立告警回報系統？來，說明一下。"],["謝處長曜宇：針對這個部分，我們會針對比較有土石流潛勢的區域設置所謂的水位計，增設監視器，來做一個……"],["李委員昆澤：就是一些野溪還有相關河川的鐵路橋，我們要在比較有風險的地點設置水位計。另外，要進行疏濬整治改善工作，這部分也應該要處理，可以優先從花東來處理，然後再做全國的盤點，這種應該要有全線規劃的時間表。"],["謝處長曜宇：我們回去會再做全面的檢討。"],["李委員昆澤：這都是我的要求，來，次長，讓你補充說明。"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，這個案子其實部長非常重視，在發生之前，我們剛談過公、鐵路的全面盤點，就是C級邊坡的部分。委員提到的這個案子，部長在6月23號開會以後，要求臺鐵局一個月內針對宜花東地區全面的潛勢區進行盤點，提出改善計畫。第二個，你說野溪整治要有水位計，要有橋邊坡的監控。第三個，溢流上來要有警示，這個是針對大清水溪、橋溢流情形，相關這一類的部分，也要有一樣的設計來處理，所以目前宜花東相關議題都要處理。"],["李委員昆澤：旅客的安全最重要，這是我們一再強調的。"],["林次長國顯：是，沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：針對水路事故，我們也來進行討論。其實我們看到海事事件每年大概都有150件以上，失蹤加上死亡的人數，每年大概也有30到40人以上的狀況，情形很嚴重。我們看這些事故，一半以上都是漁船，根據運安會事故調查統計，水路調查有215件，水路類的改善建議有235項，但是水路事故改善建議結案率卻只有74.8%，表示大概還有四分之一仍然沒有改善，所以在這邊我有幾個具體建議，第一個，水路事故有一大部分是業者的安全管理不足，或者是設備不足，這個必須加強對業者的督導。來，請說明一下。"],["葉局長協隆：謝謝委員的提醒，針對業者的安全督導部分，我們大概分兩個重點處理，第一個，針對船舶的安全檢查部分，航行國際航線的船舶，是由驗船中心進行檢驗，這部分我們每年都會監督驗船中心確實落實國際規範的要求。另外，針對國內航線部分，是由航港局檢查同仁來加強檢驗，除了加強船舶安全的適航性之外，船員的適格性，特別是人員更換的部分，也是我們檢討發現的重點。另外，對於航商本身公司管理部分，依照船舶法的規定，有所謂的NSM、國籍航商的船舶安全管理制度，我們會針對船舶的適航性、船員的適格性，還有公司的管理面這三大部分持續來強化。"],["李委員昆澤：對，相關的NSM安全管理系統必須要落實跟督導，也必須加強相關的職業環境安全，加強安全的防護。另外，針對運安會給予的水路類相關改善建議必須要落實，現在的結案率只有74.8%，還有四分之一沒有改善，這個要加強督促。"],["葉局長協隆：是，是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外針對郵輪的問題，其實我在交通委員會這麼久，從一開始推展郵輪觀光時，我就是從頭參與到尾，當初亞洲郵輪論壇也是我跟交通部要求在高雄舉辦，就是希望高雄能夠成為亞洲的邁阿密。經過旅運中心相關的規劃以及疫情的衝擊，本來亞洲的郵輪路線是重要的新興路線，成長非常快速，雖然受到疫情衝擊，現在也逐漸恢復，但逐漸恢復卻恢復到基隆，我們看基隆在2023年有142艘次，高雄有133艘次；2024年1到4月，基隆港就有100艘次，同期高雄只有23艘次，李賢義董事長，這樣對高雄是不能交代的！人次的部分，2024年1到4月，基隆港有23萬3,073人，高雄港只有3萬6,333人。"],["李董事長賢義：跟委員報告，這主要的差別，是去年名勝世界是採雙母港，就是高雄跟香港之間一個禮拜有2艘次，近期我們有跟他們討論，大概今年8月以後會有5艘次進來，扣掉這個部分，今年到目前應該是25艘次，預報的話，目前有61艘次，如果名勝世界那個……"],["李委員昆澤：這個成績我們不能滿意。"],["李董事長賢義：對，我們來努力。"],["李委員昆澤：當然，以國內的港口來講，高雄港作為郵輪母港是一個最好的位置，可以成為亞洲的邁阿密，它比基隆港好啊！當然，相關高雄旅遊的環境，也適合推展郵輪觀光，不管是臺南、高雄、屏東，這樣一個區域旅遊品牌跟套裝旅遊路線，單單在高雄港周遭的亞洲新灣區以及旗津、鹽埕，整個市區又有大眾輕軌、捷運系統，都非常便利，有這麼好的環境，次長必須要督促相關單位，包括觀光署、航港局及港務公司來提升，這個我們都會嚴格監督。李賢義董事長，我必須再提醒你一次，我要看到成績喔！這麼好的條件！"],["李董事長賢義：我們來繼續努力。"],["李委員昆澤：大家共同來努力，應該要讓艘次跟旅客人次增加，因為我們有很好的條件，我們並不是一個普通的港口，然後卻一直跟你要求相關郵輪的艘次或要求觀光客進來，我們這個都有相關配合條件，高雄就是有這樣的條件。"],["李董事長賢義：相關的場域還有相關的配套，其實我們都準備好了。"],["李委員昆澤：好，趕快把明確的……"],["李董事長賢義：當然要結合觀光署，還有就是市政府……"],["李委員昆澤：把具體的政策跟明確的目標向我們回報，以上。"],["李董事長賢義：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤召委發言。"],["主席（李委員昆澤）：現在請徐富癸委員發言。等一下在邱若華委員發言完畢之後，休息10分鐘，請各黨團告知接下來未到的委員，以便他們安排自行時間。好，請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-17","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","蔡其昌","林俊憲","許智傑","何欣純","陳素月","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳亭妃","黃仁","陳冠廷","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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請主席 請林次長 還有葉局長請林次長 葉局長"},{"start":13.108,"end":33.535,"text":"市長早安我們知道臺灣的地理位置非常的重要因為就是正位在這個東亞的這個整個航運的一個重要的交通樞紐上那不管是這個貨物的進出口也好或者是目前都已經在進行了這個離岸封廠的一個開發都會讓整個這個海域的一個"},{"start":38.015,"end":38.055,"text":"何欣純"},{"start":57.757,"end":60.319,"text":"因應未來節能減碳、淨零碳排的年代,綠能開發非常重要。經過這幾年來進行推動,在彰化外海的離岸風產業,"},{"start":74.068,"end":78.371,"text":"主見都看到很顯目的一個成績整個海域也都超過了數百隻應該300隻以上的風機都樹立在外海上所以整個海域的"},{"start":89.597,"end":90.058,"text":"韓國智慧航安"},{"start":105.879,"end":119.835,"text":"服務建置暨發展計畫,這樣子的一個計畫為期4年,到今年就是告一個段落了,那這一個4年的計畫過去我們也看到就是著重在建置這個海事中心還有智慧航安資訊平台"},{"start":120.976,"end":147.535,"text":"以及彰化風場的航道傳播交通服務系統這應該就是一個重點那我們今天也看到了就是我們的一個報告就是我們即將在今年113年到116年繼續推動第二期的一個四年的一個計畫那在這邊我想請教一下就是說在第二期的這樣子的一個計畫裡面跟第一期有什麼不一樣"},{"start":150.413,"end":173.642,"text":"先請葉局長跟您說明一下好不好好 謝謝委員的這個提問那我跟委員報告在所謂的智慧航安2.0的部分跟1.0的幾個主要的差異第一個就是在整個監控範圍的部分目前的監控範圍是673平方公里那配合未來西北側海域整個第三階段區塊開發的一個"},{"start":176.184,"end":191.204,"text":"這個風場的一個開發範圍的擴大我們要把這個監控範圍從673平方公里大幅擴大為4000平方公里這是第一個所以我們需要四座的雷達站那VTS系統也必須要做相對應的擴充這第一點"},{"start":194.127,"end":209.839,"text":"整個AI智慧科技的應用希望智慧航安資訊平台未來透過巨量傳播的資料能夠建立傳播碰撞風險的功能"},{"start":210.719,"end":230.374,"text":"這個部分對於未來海事案件的發生我們認為是有相當的幫助這個是AI智慧的導入那另外一個部分就是所謂的GMDSS全球這個海事安全預選系統的這個主系統的這個提升這邊主要是包括這個我們基隆的海岸電台"},{"start":231.394,"end":250.165,"text":"這個部分是配合國際規範的一個升級我們必須要來做提升最後一點就是說我們的海事中心跟VTS中心現在都是單一的系統我們希望能夠有相對應的備援系統來提升我們航空服務的一個韌性"},{"start":251.306,"end":275.348,"text":"那如果有一個系統如果因故有故障的情形備用系統馬上就可以接的上來那這個部分我想這個是幾個主要的重點是那剛剛聽到局長回覆說就是第二期的這個智慧航有導入AI的這樣子的一個技術那請教一下我們有這樣子的一個運算能力嗎就是在這個運用上"},{"start":277.265,"end":299.804,"text":"這個部分我們在訂定計畫的時候都有邀請相關專業單位包括這個資策會這些專家都有來進行評估過所以我們的目前的智慧航安資訊平台的這個運算能力是沒有問題是可以計算這個巨量的重播的資料然後建立模型這個部分我們正在進行當中"},{"start":301.761,"end":327.776,"text":"我們看到就是說智慧航安第一期跟第二期實際上重點就是延續第一期的有關就是這個智慧航安平台資訊平台系統還有整個船舶安全服務的一個系統那其中有一個應該是新的就是成立智慧航安推動辦公室那這個部分目前我們未來規劃的方向是什麼"},{"start":328.905,"end":354.472,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為整個這個智慧航安的這個建置跟推動因為原來我們航安組的人力是相當有限是只有一個科所以未來會增加人力對那這個我們會邀請不管是專業的這個海事院校或是這個團體來協助我們共同來推動同時掌握最新的國際趨勢的做法"},{"start":356.272,"end":369.217,"text":"但是我們這個招募人力並不會很多用精簡有效的人力但是最主要是專業有他的能量然後有效的來協助我們掌握趨勢然後有效推動計畫"},{"start":371.291,"end":375.295,"text":"臺灣外海整個海域因為過去比較單純就是航運因為現在就是因為風電的開發所以讓整個海域的安全比較複雜所以我想很多人還是會關心的就是有關離岸風潮的緊急救援機制如何"},{"start":391.531,"end":397.318,"text":"因為我們看到這整個救援的機制當然就是說這個離岸的開發商在開發的時候他們必須要送這個緊急的這個防災計畫給經濟部能源署可是我們看到就是說現行的法規如果說這個需要直升機的高控作業"},{"start":411.295,"end":416.158,"text":"災害防救法第3條交通部是海濫災害防救中央主管機關負責這個就是海域的各項災害的預防應變及復原重建那我們在這邊要關心的就是說如果假設這個海域發生了比如說風機因為颱風"},{"start":435.99,"end":440.954,"text":"這個真的是颶風然後倒塌這樣子的一個事件的時候要由誰來負責這個救援"},{"start":445.717,"end":472.074,"text":"包委員這個在幾個月前我們在行政院副院長主持的會議裡面有特別提到這一塊那經濟部的部分是審核這整個計畫但是它裡面您剛提的海上救難是交通部為主所以交通部會負起責任我們大概會協調幾個單位就您剛提的經濟部本身它在通過設置這個風潮的時候它第一個要有自救能力基本的自救能力"},{"start":472.955,"end":497.398,"text":"那第二個就是內政部空勤總隊空中的救援第三個是我們自己航港局我們也會我們應該有一筆計畫要來申請建造一個海上救難的船來協助處理以目前我們有這個救難努力嗎目前是協同相關單位來做我們目前還沒有足夠的還沒有足夠的能力所以這部分是需要加強的"},{"start":498.412,"end":512.028,"text":"第4個還有一個是海巡海巡基本上人員的救援他們會協助我們一起所以等於航空局代表跟交通部一起coordinate這些單位一起來做這個區域的協訪"},{"start":513.229,"end":513.249,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd187fa5ab2e6767c80a22d6087941f42bcee23585586e40b3a09a2b06159e1097d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:19:15 - 10:28:42","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:19:15+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:28:42+08:00","duration":567,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時19分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：請部長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。首先先感謝部長、國教署的彭署長，以及潘文忠前部長在6月24號（週一）核定我這個「夜光天使點燈計畫」延伸至國中階段以及國小寒暑假的試辦計畫，本席希望一年的試辦時間，未來能夠成為正式的一個計畫，還可以擴大區域辦理，讓這些弱勢家庭的孩子在成長過程當中，能夠有更多人關心他們，有更多的希望，我們一起來為他們加油，謝謝大家。","第一個我要跟部長繼續討論學生輔導法的審查，我想社會一直在改變，我無意冒犯部長，但是我還是要很如實的報告，我們的成長背景完全不一樣，我想在部長十來歲的時候應該還沒有所謂的手機跟電腦，您跟我有一段的差距，而我們跟現在的孩子也有更大一段的差距。在資訊量越來越大的一個情況之下，從各個數據來看，就像剛剛每個委員都很關心的，我要先講的是，我在國中的時候其實就看過很多的同儕，有一些同儕會用美工刀的刀背割手腕，他會有一點點流血、泛血，甚至留下傷痕，這就是自傷的案件；現在看到15歲到24歲的自殺通報件數逐年增加，各個學校通報的人數，不管是自傷或者是自殺，呈現倍數的成長，青少年的自殺率一直在逐漸上升，教育的現場開始難以應對這些日漸複雜的輔導工作。我想請問一下部長，教育部目前對於自殺防治相關的作為有沒有具體的成效？青少年的自殺以及自傷人數一直在上升，根本的原因是什麼，有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實誠如委員所關心的，有許多委員也同時關心自殺這一個議題，自殺從相關的學術研究或者政府部門的研究，要歸為單一的因素確實是比較困難，當然他有許多時候來自於人際之間、來自於同儕的壓力……"],["羅委員廷瑋：同儕的壓力、課業的壓力。"],["鄭部長英耀：那一個變成壓倒學生在抗壓時的最後一根稻草，確實在校園裡也是不乏有這樣的案例。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，您覺得自殺防治有沒有具體的作為跟成效？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們一直在努力，因為從班級的輔導，包括許多老師的課程教學以及我們現行許多的防範，我們事實上是努力在做這個方面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們相信都有在努力，我們都相信，因為這個是不分藍綠的議題，大家都一起來為孩子、撐住他們，但是問題就是我們看到自傷的人數，還有自殺人數不斷的上升，所以一定要有一個大變革，才有辦法並想辦法逆轉現在的問題。目前業務執行跟推動有沒有面臨什麼困境？您覺得呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想因為社會的變遷，家長對小孩子教育的期待當然是越來越高，因為社會對學校教育的期待當然是高的，老師也相對會面臨更大的一些挑戰，但不管怎麼樣，學校如何提供一個更專業的支持系統，透過跨部會的合作，我想那都是我們教育部要積極來努力的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我還是要講，剛剛召委就有講過，監察院的報告裡面就講，有七成的孩子是沒有被接住的、沒有被輔導的，所以學校端在一開始就沒有辦法接住他們。先行的輔導機制分為三級，剛剛有講過，一、二級是所謂的學校老師以及輔導專任老師，可是在一、二級我們就會面臨最重要的問題，就是校長，校長的態度、校長重不重視輔導工作，不重視的話，輔導老師很難做啊！第三級面對的問題更廣，輔導的責任大多是任務編組，流動率高，剛剛也說了，轉職、離職的機率高，各縣市作法不一樣。再來提到人力，我們知道專業的人力不足，師生比要再調整，要怎麼彌補這些人力，部長有沒有特別去瞭解教育現場的狀況？專業諮詢人員不足的原因是什麼？","我想人力不足跟勞動條件很有關係，絕大多數都是跳槽、一年聘的問題、無法累積年資，跳槽之後，年資、薪資又要重新開始計算，加上大專院校心理諮商師的薪資來源往往錯綜複雜，可能是校務基金、校方自籌，或是教育部或者其他部會的專案東湊西湊給他們，還要跑公文、寫計畫書、做核銷，這樣子聽起來我都覺得非常的困難。可是相反的，外面的諮商所越開越多，我們去看一下相關的資料，可以看到去年年初有將近3,000人，比起十多年前只有800人，今年還會再有所突破，所以請問部長，剛剛我們看到薪水，你知道他們的起薪大概是多少嗎？前一個質詢的召委有講，大概四萬四左右。如果今天你是所謂的專輔人員，你去外面執業，薪水可能上看到十萬，請問部長，如果是你，你要選擇麵包還是選擇理想？我想理想跟麵包如果能夠兼得，當然大家都想要，可是現在面臨的就是小老百姓沒辦法，他一定要生活啊！所以這個專輔的人員面臨的就是薪資不好、沒有誘因的狀況，自然留不住人才嘛！這個問題我們到底有沒有辦法來突破，部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正，事實上委員剛才所關心的也是這一次我們教育部內部在修法時在努力的一個方向，我們積極朝讓輔導人力能夠做專業的事，以及他的薪資，包括怎麼樣調增人力，能夠關照到第一線上的教育品質，包括學生的需求，我想那都是我們努力的目標。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想心輔法我們等很久了，我們需要、我們也要接住孩子，已經等了這麼多年了，看到每年的報告，每一天的流逝都有可能造成一個孩子的傷亡，所以我們要趕快來成立，趕快接住他們。我想，未來有一個具體的方案，如果財源的編列，突破人力的短缺，能夠留住優秀的專輔人員，我希望能夠趕快提出具體的一個方案，這個部分一定要趕快去處理。","另外，親職教育有沒有落實，針對脆弱的家庭、高風險的家庭，教育部有沒有具體的措施？"],["鄭部長英耀：對於一些弱勢學生的關照，當然教育部從家庭教育中心裡面的親職教育，或者學校老師的一些親師座談，事實上一直都有積極把它當作一個重點，包括課業的輔助、生活的輔助。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我還是回歸到我們剛剛講的一定有做，我們相信你們有做，但到底效能有沒有彰顯，昨天在臺中忠明南路才發生有一個家長接送孩子的過程，對他的孩子拳打腳踢，甚至是有點半拖行、摩托車拖行，讓孩子在後面的一個社會案件，吵得沸沸揚揚的，但現在我們看到國教署第三期推動家庭教育的中程計畫和衛生福利部11個中央部會攜手的家庭教育，我想到底成效具體如何，我希望會後有沒有這樣相關的資料可以提供給我們？","北歐國家例如挪威、瑞典皆有親職假，加拿大還有澳洲也有相關的制度，他們的政策是希望促進父母在孩子出生後和照顧的角色要平等，我們都知道教育不是學校完完全全的責任，家長也需要來支援。但是這個部分，我們的親職假能不能更有效的讓父母親在這個位置擔任更重要的角色，我想教育部也需要去規劃，所以教育部目前對於我這樣子的想法可以支持嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我非常認同委員剛才所提的，確實從婚姻的開始到小孩子出生所有的教養，要怎麼樣去提升家長在親子教養的一些增能，我想那都是家庭教育中心一個很重要的mission，一個很重要的任務……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以最後我要講的是親職假還有剛剛我說的，學生人力專輔人員的輔導要有具體的作為，我們希望可以看到具體的方案，謝謝你。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員、謝謝部長。本席在這邊宣布在林宜瑾委員質詢完畢之後，休息5分鐘。接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 18 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員許智傑等25\n人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生\n輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正\n草案」案；九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審查\n委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具\n「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分\n條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員郭昱晴等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員郭\n國文等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員郭國文等 19 人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條\n文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員萬\n美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條\n及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正\n草案」案；二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十\n五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十六、審查委員林\n月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案(僅進行詢答)","agenda_id":"1136601_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.21034375,"end":14.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.825968750000001,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.18346875,"end":127.85909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.28034375,"end":24.465968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.22596875000002,"end":133.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.99721875,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.39784375000002,"end":150.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.09596875,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.26346875000002,"end":159.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.43159375000002,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.54534375,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.96971875,"end":181.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.77034375000002,"end":197.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.23221875000002,"end":217.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.74784375000002,"end":219.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.55346875,"end":220.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.57034375,"end":229.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.23971875,"end":252.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.21096875,"end":273.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.86159375,"end":377.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.33159375,"end":345.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.14534375000005,"end":387.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.27409375,"end":403.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.66409375,"end":403.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.71471875000003,"end":403.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.96784375000004,"end":436.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.05159375000005,"end":408.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.58284375000005,"end":457.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.57971875000004,"end":531.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.3740937499999,"end":536.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.71909375,"end":555.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.05409375,"end":554.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.18471875,"end":565.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.61346875,"end":565.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.7822187500001,"end":568.09409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.274,"end":14.402,"text":"好,謝召委,有請部長。好,請部長。"},{"start":23.403,"end":45.702,"text":"部長好,首先先感謝部長還有我們國教署的彭署長以及我們潘文忠前部長在週一合訂的6月24號合訂我這個夜光天使點燈計畫延伸國中夜間以及我們的國小寒暑假的示範計畫本期希望一年的示範時間未來能夠成為正式的一個計畫還可以擴大區域辦理給這些弱勢家庭"},{"start":46.323,"end":49.424,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":72.073,"end":95.367,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":95.467,"end":107.169,"text":"擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":123.132,"end":135.519,"text":"教育部目前對於自殺防治相關的作為有沒有具體的成效青少年的自殺以及自殺人數一直在上升根本的原因是什麼?有沒有掌握?"},{"start":137.669,"end":160.081,"text":"確實這一個剛才陳委員所關心的也有許多委員也同時關心這個議題自殺的一個從相關的學術上的一些研究或者政務部門研究要歸為單一的因素確實是比較困難那當然它有許多時候來自於人際之間來自於同儕的一個壓力那一個變成"},{"start":163.49,"end":166.554,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":183.154,"end":184.335,"text":"我們相信都有在努力"},{"start":199.736,"end":219.293,"text":"都相信因為這是不分藍綠的議題大家都一起來為孩子撐住他們但是問題就是我們看到自傷的人數還有自殺人數不斷的上升所以一定就是要有一個大變革才有辦法去想辦法逆轉現在的問題那目前業務執行跟推動有沒有面臨什麼困境您覺得呢"},{"start":221.07,"end":229.179,"text":"當然因為社會的一個變遷然後家長對小孩子的一個教育的一個期待當然是越來越高因為"},{"start":230.325,"end":251.556,"text":"此外,社會對學校教育的期待當然是高的。老師也相對會面臨更大的一些挑戰。但不管怎麼樣,學校如何提供一個更專業的一個支持的系統,透過一個跨部會的合作,我想那都是我們教育部要積極來努力的。"},{"start":252.436,"end":272.919,"text":"我還是要講喔,剛剛其實召委就有講過,監察院的報告裡面就講,七成的孩子是沒有被接住的,沒有被輔導的。所以學校端在一開始就沒有辦法接住他們。所以先行的輔導機制分為三級,剛剛有講過,一、二級呢是所謂的學校老師以及輔導專任老師,可是一、二級我們就會面臨最重要的一個問題,就是校長。"},{"start":273.993,"end":275.994,"text":" discipio等19人擬具〈學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":299.887,"end":325.346,"text":"人力不足跟勞動條件很有關係絕大多數都是跳槽一年聘的問題無法累積年資跳槽之後年資、薪資又要重新開始計算加上大專院校的心理諮商師來源往往錯綜複雜可能是校務基金校方自籌教育部或者其他部會的專案東湊西湊的給他們這樣子還要跑公文寫計畫書做核銷這樣子聽起來我都覺得非常的困難"},{"start":326.147,"end":345.433,"text":"可是相反的外面的諮商所越開越多我們去看一下相關的資料可以看到去年年初有將近3000人比起10多年前只有800人今年還會再有所突破所以請問部長剛剛我們看到薪水你知道起薪大概多少前一個委員朝委又講大概4萬4左右"},{"start":346.173,"end":363.346,"text":"對那我想如果今天你是這一個所謂的專輔人員你去外面執業薪水可能上看到10萬請問如果部長是你你要選擇麵包還是選擇理想我想理想跟麵包如果能夠兼得但當然大家都想要可是現在面臨就是小老百姓沒辦法"},{"start":363.746,"end":363.866,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":388.949,"end":402.943,"text":"讓輔導人力能夠從他專業他做專業的事然後他的薪資包括怎麼樣調整人力能夠關照到這一個第一線上的一些教育品質包括學生的這個需求我想那都是我們努力的目標"},{"start":403.644,"end":427.009,"text":"我想幸福法我們等很久我們需要我們也要接住孩子已經等了這麼多年了那看到每年的這個報告每個孩子每一天的流失都有可能造成一個孩子的傷亡所以我們要趕快來成立趕快接住他們我想未來有一個具體的方案如果財源的編列突破人力的短缺相關的這些能夠留住優秀的專輔人員我希望能夠有趕快提出具體的一個方案"},{"start":427.669,"end":454.355,"text":"這個部分一定要趕快去處理。另外我想這個輕職教育有沒有落實針對脆弱的家庭、高風險的家庭教育部有沒有具體的措施?對一些弱勢學生的一個關照當然教育部在許多從這個家庭教育中心裡面的輕職的教育或者學校老師的一些親師的一些座談事實上他一直都在積極把它當作一個重點"},{"start":454.995,"end":479.413,"text":"包括課業的輔助生活的一個輔助我還是回歸到我們剛剛講的一定有做我們相信你們有做但到底效能有沒有彰顯昨天台中才發生中民南路有一個家長接送孩子的時候在這個過程當中對他的孩子可以說是拳打腳踢甚至是有點半拖行摩托車拖行讓孩子在後面的一個這個社會案件吵得沸沸揚揚的"},{"start":480.174,"end":507.763,"text":"但國教署現在我們看到的這個第三期推動家庭教育的中層計畫和衛生福利部11個部會中央部會攜手的家庭教育我想到底成效具體如何我希望會後有沒有這樣相關的資料可以提供給我們我想北歐國家例如挪威瑞典皆有親職假加拿大還有澳洲也有相關的制度他們的政策是希望促進父母在出生後和孩子的一個照顧角色平等我們都知道"},{"start":508.303,"end":534.819,"text":"教育不是學校完完全全的責任我們要家長也需要來支援但是這個部分我們的親職假我們能不能有更有效的去讓父母親能夠來擔任這個位置更重要的角色我想教育部也需要去規劃所以我希望教育部你目前對於我這樣子的想法可以支持嗎?我想我非常認同委員剛才所提的確實從這一個"},{"start":537.779,"end":539.561,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案》案"},{"start":566.065,"end":567.381,"text":"二、審查委員羅偉仁等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"154232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd10fda8c764a90cdcf08df44dd9bf560a2ee23585586e40b3af0a2f51fd5bd8c715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:14:42 - 10:26:24","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財Sra 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6月份有我的目的，就是我們現在對新青安政策已經在檢討，對外看起來也有一些措施要做，無論是……如果最後你又轉租了，我要降低成數，包括你的年限要提早還，我們已有工具出來，但為什麼我說要看6月份？我要看6月份這些新聞露出之後，新青安申請的戶數有沒有減少？那你如果告訴我說你不知道，那這幾天到底行政院在討論什麼？部長，你懂我的用意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我懂委員的用意，委員，你現在是說6月以後有沒有少一點，是不是？"],["李委員彥秀：所以你現在跟我講，你不知道這個數字，你可以提供給我沒有問題，但是我覺得……"],["莊部長翠雲：可以，我們是不是會後馬上統計，然後提供出來？"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我知道，我沒有要跟你吵架，因為我現在要跟你答詢，我是說，從這個趨勢就可以看出來，現在丟在媒體上的這些政策工具，讓不應該申請新青安的人會不會稍微停看聽一點？如果你手邊沒有，我就在想說，你行政院現在在跨部會協調，是在協調什麼東西？所以這個是我的疑問。","接下來，其實我要講的就是，政府的政策丟出來，我們當時是要處理居住正義，讓年輕人買得起房，這個政策我也支持，但是沒有跨部會討論的結果，我覺得就是呈現這樣子，我們後面反而就是……你如果轉租，我後面就相對地要有罰款、罰則出來，甚至是貸款年限要減低，我覺得那個政策的反覆就會造成一定的影響。","另外一個就是現在出租房的部分，我們也可以看到出租房以110年為基準的話，現在租金的指數達到過去34個月的新高。過去34個月其實房租的價格也越來越高，我們現在達到更高，不僅房價越來越高，租金也越來越高，達到106.22%，這個是跟110年為基準來做比較。所以我要提的就是，我們希望買到合理價格的房子，在出租的部分，對於年輕人來說，房子買不起，總要讓他們租金租得起吧，但是現在看起來，這兩個部分我們政府都沒有做得很好，這個是我要批評、批判的地方。","租金的部分包含在居住正義裡面，包含包租代管是我長期關注的，就是我們蓋社宅，土地的取得、時間的年限都可能緩不濟急，也沒有辦法落實賴清德的政策，這個政策我也支持，我也希望他可以做得成功、做得好，但是顯然租金的價格也越來越高。所以我常在提的，包括包租代管的政策也是，部長，你上次給我的回答，包括我後來收到書面回應，其實我是不滿意的，因為我有計算過，以我們目前1萬5,000元的免稅額包租代管，目前申請包租代管的戶數大概是10萬6,000戶，免稅額是1萬5,000元，我們的稅損差不多是1億，我看過那個級距，如果免稅額調到2萬5,000塊錢，另外受惠的戶數只有4萬3,000戶，你有沒有計算出來它的稅損到底差多少？但是願意加入包租代管的戶數可能會大大增加很多，這個也達到賴清德所希望的居住正義，現在房價越來越高，但是至少在租屋的部分有更多的公益人、有更多的房東願意加入包租代管的政策，這就是另外一個我要質詢的重點。所以我要請問你，如果調到2萬5,000塊的免稅額，受惠的戶數到底有多少？稅損到底有多少？因為你一直跟我講說稅損會增加很多，你沒有一個數字給我，你真的無法說服我，你跟我講說稅損會增加1億，那我就會去問賴清德、我就會去問卓榮泰，如果可以增加2萬戶的房東願意投入包租代管，稅損1億你願不願意去承受？這就是另外一個問題嘛！這就是政府的選擇嘛！到底是1億的稅損重要，還是有1萬戶或者是10萬戶或5萬戶願意加入包租代管政策重要？這就是一個選擇題嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。謝謝委員對住宅政策的關注，對於住宅的提供，除了社會住宅要努力興建之外，還有包租代管及公益出租人來增加租賃市場……"],["李委員彥秀：你直接回答，我剩下1分50秒。"],["莊部長翠雲：剛剛您提的就是1萬5,000塊可不可以提高到2萬5,000塊……"],["李委員彥秀：稅損到底會增加多少？有多少戶數？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，除了我覺得稅損是一個考量之外，一個房東……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，這個問題我問了兩、三次，我覺得你根本就沒有好好去精算、計算，這個事情不是壞事，你也知道，不是我個人要什麼credit，而是我在幫助賴清德達到居住正義，包租代管的量可以增加，全國都可以增加，你現在居然沒有辦法告訴我如果投入4萬3,000戶的包租代管，稅損到底是多少？因為你一直告訴我說我們要顧慮稅損，那麼稅損到底是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，公益出租人也好、包租代管也好，不是只有考慮所得稅把1.5調高，免稅額調高到2.5萬……"],["李委員彥秀：這個就是房東願不願意加入，這就是鼓勵誘因，這就是誘因嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：能不能容我說明？也就是說，除了所得稅之外，他的房屋稅、地價稅都適用自用住宅，而不適用一般的所謂出租住宅的稅率，所以不是只有所得稅；再其次，你讓房東要課的房屋租金所得一直拉高，相對地，房客他卻要課比較重，到底在經濟上誰是比較弱勢？然後讓房東的租金收入可以去做免稅，這在社會的公平上，我們也要同步去考量的。"],["李委員彥秀：那你現在是說包租代管的政策1萬5,000也不合理？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，這1萬5,000當時我們其實有考慮過，六都租金是做一個適度的減免，我想這個叫做適度。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，加入包租代管的免稅額也是你們提出來的，我提出來只是說全國的房租因為地價的關係不太一樣，我希望全國都有更多的誘因加入你包租代管的政策，至於決策上怎麼做，我覺得要跨部會去協調，但是我非常遺憾的是，這是一個可以幫助賴清德落實我們社會住宅的政策，也讓工具可以更多，但是我在這邊苦口婆心講了這麼久，顯然地你沒有辦法回答我的問題，我每次在這邊質詢就是狗吠火車……"],["莊部長翠雲：您不要這麼說，您的意見我們都非常重視。"],["李委員彥秀：然後你連想都不想，你連到底會增加多少稅損、連精算都沒有去精算，所以我覺得底下的人大家都不認真，你也都在敷衍我，我對這個事情非常不滿意。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我想沒有這樣的情形，跟委員說明，沒有這樣的情形。"],["李委員彥秀：我絕對不是情緒性的發言……"],["莊部長翠雲：是，瞭解。"],["李委員彥秀：而是我覺得這是一個好的政策，可以達到讓社會住宅多多提供出來，政府蓋社宅其實真的很慢，我希望它可以蓋得很快，但沒有辦法，年輕人買不起房，至少也可以租得起房，這是一個誘因，讓房東把房子丟出來。不過你回答我什麼，這都是你的工具、政策，就是你們決定要怎麼做，我只看效果、結果出來到底是怎麼樣，有沒有房東因為你的政策丟出更多房子出來、加入包租代管，達到居住正義。但是我非常遺憾的是，我在這邊質詢第二次還是第三次，你現在都沒有辦法回復我稅損到底會增加多少，以及可以增加多少的社會住宅投入出租行列，我覺得你們根本就不認真。"],["主席（賴委員惠員代）：謝謝彥秀委員。","接著請郭召委國文。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","王世堅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅\n法部分條文修正草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1136501_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":8.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":41.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.94846875,"end":60.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.43784375,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.14034375000001,"end":58.384718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.08909375,"end":142.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.54471875,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.18596875,"end":142.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.48971875,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.52346875,"end":142.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.72596875000002,"end":142.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.75971875000002,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.94534375,"end":169.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.85721875000002,"end":178.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.70034375,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.49721875,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.97346875000002,"end":181.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.34471875,"end":189.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.50409375,"end":188.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.95909375000002,"end":191.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.63409375,"end":196.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.21159375000002,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.08409375000002,"end":201.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.03721875000002,"end":203.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.17221875,"end":203.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.23971875,"end":240.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.47159375,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.32721875000001,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.41534375,"end":240.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.44909375,"end":241.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.46596875,"end":242.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.28846875000002,"end":284.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.33909375000002,"end":248.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.89784375,"end":333.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.17284375,"end":341.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.88471875000005,"end":348.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.90471875000003,"end":416.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.21471875000003,"end":431.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.89596875,"end":435.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.28346875000005,"end":441.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.61159375000005,"end":457.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.69159375000004,"end":444.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.18721875000006,"end":464.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.42659375000005,"end":480.09096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.57846875,"end":467.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.97034375000004,"end":469.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.91534375000003,"end":470.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.09096875000006,"end":480.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.58034375000005,"end":504.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.18221875,"end":492.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.72971875,"end":499.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.75846875,"end":532.5047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.0928437499999,"end":524.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.3315937500001,"end":576.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.39346875,"end":546.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.83096875,"end":581.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.03721875,"end":588.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.6484687500001,"end":585.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.0615937499999,"end":633.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.4697187500001,"end":622.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.78971875,"end":628.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.10909375,"end":638.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.28159375,"end":640.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.86346875,"end":659.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.34409375,"end":642.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.6240937500002,"end":687.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.49721875,"end":692.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.83409375,"end":692.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.2253437500001,"end":701.7947187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":0.109,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":15.049,"end":40.407,"text":"越打越高這個數字擺在那邊這是事實雖然央行前陣子通膨央行升息為了抑制通膨那也希望藉這個機會房價可以打一點房價不要讓房價越打越高但是事實呈現出來的結果大家都把房價越打越高歸咎在你的新清安政策你覺得是這樣嗎?"},{"start":42.037,"end":44.358,"text":"委員報告我個人不這麼全然認為第一個就是說房屋價格的一個波動的因素相當眾多比如說股市的熱絡資金的充沛還有市場利率還有地區產業的發展我同意啦因為前幾天我質詢那個時候我也講說其實"},{"start":64.725,"end":85.026,"text":"大家股市很好大家錢很口袋很多錢比較多那台灣熱錢也不少所以大家會把投資標的物放在一個未來看漲的標的物上但是相對的政府的工具政策是什麼當然你不能說全然沒有關係啊你也絕對是逃不逃不掉啦你大家同意我的說法"},{"start":89.07,"end":107.369,"text":"規舊幾大原因新青安政策確實也是我們政府本來意識房價但是你的這個政策當然我們政策的目標不是這樣但是結果呈現出來的它也是其中原因之一那我們就來看3月份的時候我們就看了政府到目前為止新青安政策已經核准了42萬戶"},{"start":109.211,"end":115.315,"text":"合準金額1.9兆元,2月將近4000戶申請新青安,3月6440戶,4月6879戶,5月越來越高,目前我們對外好像工具手段不斷的丟出來,但是申請人越來越多,8476戶。"},{"start":132.245,"end":149.377,"text":"達到了635.9億創下新高部長6月份到目前為止總共有多少新清案6月份的部分數字還是很高嗎跟委員報告您剛剛提的42萬戶或者40萬戶還有金額1兆8千億是算99年"},{"start":150.698,"end":177.475,"text":"秦安貸款從99年12月就開始了所以累積到現在總共是一兆八千多億可是目前貸款餘額是八千九百九十六億換言之今年朋友們貸了秦安貸款以後他其實也一直在還換言之就還了一兆多那新秦安是去年八月一號開始當然要還這不是我的重點我現在只是問你說六月份我們六月份申請的戶數跟"},{"start":179.056,"end":179.116,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":204.091,"end":229.104,"text":"我問6月份有我的目的就是我們現在對新青安政策我們已經在檢討也對外看起來有一些措施要做無論是你如果最後你又轉租了我要降低成數啦包括你的年薪提早還啦我們有工具出來為什麼要說要看6月份我要看6月份我們這些新聞露出之後新青安申請的戶數有沒有減少"},{"start":230.285,"end":239.277,"text":"那你如果告訴我說你不知道那這幾天到底行政院在討論什麼?部長你懂我的用意嗎?委員的用意所以你現在跟我講說你不知道這個數字你可以提供給我沒有問題但是我覺得"},{"start":246.445,"end":265.733,"text":"會後馬上統計,然後提供出來我知道,我沒有要跟你吵架因為我現在跟你答詢我是說這個趨勢就可以看出來我現在丟在媒體上這些政策工具讓不應該升起親親安的人他會不會稍微停看聽一點那如果你手邊沒有我就在想說你行政院現在在跨部會協調你是在協調什麼東西所以這個是我的疑問那接下來其實我要講的就是說"},{"start":272.836,"end":301.496,"text":"政府的政策就是說丟出來我們當時是要處理居住正義讓年輕人買得起房這個政策我也支持但是沒有跨部會討論的結果我覺得就是呈現這樣子就是說我們後面反而就是我們要我們你如果轉租我後面我就要罰我有相對的罰款罰則出來甚至是貸款年限要減低就是說我覺得那個政策反覆就會造成一定的影響"},{"start":302.376,"end":312.483,"text":"另外一個就是我們現在的出租房的部分我們也可以看到出租房在以110年為基準的話我們現在租金的指數達到過去34個月的新高過去34個月其實房租的價格也越來越高那我們現在達到更高了不僅買房越高租金也越來越高達到106.22這個是跟110年為基準來去做比較"},{"start":329.755,"end":329.836,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":341.949,"end":359.106,"text":"租金租得起吧但是現在看起來這兩塊我們政府都沒有做得很好這個是我要批判的地方租金的部分包含在居住正義裡面包含在包租貸款是我長期關注的就是說我們蓋社宅"},{"start":361.508,"end":381.997,"text":"土地的取得、時間的連線都可能緩不濟節沒有辦法落實賴清流的政策這個政策我也支持我也希望他可以做得成功做得好但是顯然租金的價格也越來越高所以我常在提的包括包租貸款的政策也是部長你上次給我回答包括我後面收到書面回應其實我是不滿意的"},{"start":384.378,"end":391.062,"text":"因為我有計算過就是說以我們目前一萬五的免稅額包租貸款我們目前申請包租貸款的戶數大概十萬六千戶免稅額是一萬五我們稅損差不多是一億那我看過那個集據如果我們的免稅額調到兩萬五千塊錢我們另外售戶的戶數只有四萬三千戶那你有沒有計算出來他的稅損到底差多少"},{"start":412.034,"end":441.454,"text":"但是我們願意加入包租代管的戶數可能大大增加很多這個也達到賴清德我們希望居住正義我現在房價越來越高但是我至少在租屋的部分有更多的公益人有更多的房東願意加入你包租代管的政策這個就是另外一個我要質詢的重點所以我要請問你到底受惠的戶數如果我調到25000塊的免稅額受惠的戶數到底有多少"},{"start":442.655,"end":464.157,"text":"那你稅損到底有多大?因為你一直跟我講說稅損會增加很多。你沒有一個數字給我,你真的無法說服我。所以你就跟我講說稅損會增加一億。那我就會去問賴清德,我就會去問卓榮泰。我如果可以增加兩萬戶的這個房東願意投入包租代管,那你稅損一億你願不願意去承受?"},{"start":465.842,"end":473.393,"text":"這就是另外一個問題嘛 這就是政府的選擇嘛到底是1億的稅損重要還是有1萬戶願意或者是10萬戶或5萬戶加入包租貸款政策重要 這就是一個選擇題嘛"},{"start":481.385,"end":491.72,"text":"謝謝委員對住宅政策的一個關注對於住宅這個提供除了社會住宅努力要興建之外還有包租貸款及供應出租的那剛剛就是說您提的就是說一萬五可不可以提高到兩萬五"},{"start":498.469,"end":521.61,"text":"一個稅損除了是一個稅損我覺得這個是一個考量部長我這個問題問了兩三次我覺得你根本就沒有好好去精算計算這個事情不是壞事你也知道不是我要個人要什麼虧的而是我在幫助賴清德達到居住正義包住代管跟量可以增加全國都可以增加你現在居然沒有辦法告訴我"},{"start":522.17,"end":523.413,"text":"如果投入4萬3千戶的這個包租貸款稅損到底多少?因為你一直告訴我說我們要顧慮稅損稅損到底是多少?"},{"start":533.499,"end":559.024,"text":"委員報告,這個公益出租也好,包租代管也好,不是只有考慮所得稅把1.5條高,免稅條高到2.5萬,這個就是房東願不願意加入,這就是鼓勵誘因,這就是誘因啊!能不能容我說明,也就是說除了所得稅之外,它的房屋稅跟地價稅都適用自用住宅,而不是用一般的所謂出租的住宅的一個數的稅率,所以不是只有所得稅,再其次,你讓房東要"},{"start":560.384,"end":560.424,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":577.85,"end":588.297,"text":"那你現在是說包租貸款的政策一萬五也不合理囉沒有在一萬五當時我們其實有考慮過六都的租金制做一個四度的減免加入包租貸款的免稅額也是你們提出來的我提出來只是說全國的"},{"start":593.761,"end":593.801,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":619.672,"end":638.581,"text":"顯然的你沒有辦法回答我的問題就是我每次在這邊質詢就是狗肺火車然後你連想都不想你連稅損到底要增加多少稅損你連精算都沒有去精算所以我覺得底下的人大家都不認真啦你也都在敷衍我對這個事情非常不滿意絕對不是情緒性的發言而且我覺得這是一個好的政策"},{"start":645.344,"end":658.554,"text":"可以達到社會住宅多多提供出來政府蓋社宅其實真的很慢我希望他可以蓋得很快但沒有辦法年輕人買不起房至少也可以租得起房這是一個誘因讓房東把房子丟出來不管你回答我什麼都都是你的工具政策就是你們決定要怎麼做我只看效果結果出來到底是什麼房東因為你的政策丟出更多的房子出來加入包租代管"},{"start":674.226,"end":675.146,"text":"主席,一樣有請"}]}},{"id":"154231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1e14b70d6030fbdf2309e96bb53525717ee23585586e40b3a66bd7c4c758768765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:14:16 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10:25:23","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:14:16+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:25:23+08:00","duration":667,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":29,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-29"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":214,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時14分）謝謝主席。主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。今天有非常多的媒體在場，您剛進來的時候，很多媒體都在針對今天好像有平面報導講您來委員會備詢，連參謀總長都一起來了，所以您這樣的動作遭受到質疑。不過，本席看了一下今天我們討論事項的議程，就是國防部長率領參謀總長報告漢光四十號演習嘛！我們也都知道國會擴權法案目前覆議也失敗了，所以是在釋憲當中，這是主席所排定的議程，所以您真的覺得這個議程當中有不適合，但是不好意思說嗎？還是說其實您覺得是OK的？因為我覺得既然這是議程，主席、會議也要求的話，您也就必須要率領參謀總長出席嘛！您個人怎麼來看這個題目？因為感覺上我覺得這個報導從頭到尾都沒有提到一個關鍵，就是如果這樣沒請參謀總長來，參謀總長可能藐視國會啊！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個，應該要到國會來接受質詢的基本上應該還是國防部部長，但是大法官釋字第461號解釋確實有一個所謂列席備詢的規定，那它就是在解釋參謀總長有沒有列席備詢的義務，那我查了第461號解釋，它確實有這樣子列席備詢的義務存在，但是就涉及國防機密的事項當然就可以不回答，當然我也是如此，就是涉及到國家安全的這些機密事項，我們都不能夠在公開的場合加以回答。所以基於這樣的考量，又是涉及到漢光，因為漢光進入實兵驗證之後，統裁部是由參謀總長負責，所以我想我們認為就這個主題來講，就請參謀總長列席備詢。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝部長清楚的說明。因為我想有的時候因果關係還是要搞清楚，如果是立法院的要求，那麼對於國防委員會的尊重，我相信部長也會依照這個方式來進行溝通，我也不希望好像質詢還沒有開始，但是參謀總長是不是要來，然後就完全歪了一個方向，樓都歪了，變成好像質疑顧部長的權威喔！所以，我想在質詢之前，我們先把定義講清楚，也不要說尊重立法院，反而變成是部長的權威受損，畢竟國防部的領導統御也是非常重要的。","那麼本席對於你們今天在報告當中特別提到，接下來會以不必要的一種所謂展示性演習的部分把它儘量的避免或減少，但是我想部長你也知道，如果以俄烏戰爭的發展，連中共的共軍將領都說，接下來的作戰方式是一個混合型的戰事，軍事、政治、金融、科技、網路、認知作戰其實是交錯，所以我就想要問部長，在漢光演習當中有沒有納入金融、科技、網路跟認知戰的部分在裡面，還是比較是所謂戰術、戰技相關的操演？"],["顧部長立雄：這一次有特別將認知戰的部分納入，因為認知戰的部分，我們現在如果要進一步講，應該要講是一個戰略溝通的機制，也就是說，他要對內展現國防的防衛作戰力量來建立全民的信心，那對外也要傳達我國建立防衛的決心，爭取國際社會的關注跟支持，對敵要想辦法削弱他們對臺動武的決心，瓦解敵軍的戰鬥意志，這些等等都會是在我們這一次政戰單位加入，然後成為一個驗證的科目、項目之一。"],["林委員楚茵：本席為什麼沒有特別請參謀總長而是來詢問你的部分，剛剛你有提到了，認知戰的部分已經加入了，但是其實本席更在乎的是，在整體的作戰過程當中，前面所寫的金融也是一環，那麼過去我一直在提醒的就是所謂的金融漢光演習，因為在俄烏戰爭的過程當中，金融業確實如果一旦發出假訊息說ATM沒有現金，那麼銀行會發生擠兌，社會就會引發動盪，臺灣跟中國之間，我們知道漢光演習也就是預設、預警中國對於臺灣的這種侵害、戰爭的發動，那麼他有可能會不會就從金融……因為兩岸之間的金融交流也是非常頻繁的，我想要就教部長，過去因為您曾經也擔任過金管會主委，所以我會拿這一題來講的原因是因為金融業必須要跟央行、跟金管會做一些溝通跟交流，過去我一再提醒的是，我在財政委員會要求央行或金管會做這個部分的時候，他們的回應當然都是他們有一些內部的演練跟操練，但是如果以俄烏戰爭來講，為什麼在俄烏戰爭底下，銀行可以奇蹟似的生還，系統可以如期的運作，那就是他們在2021年底知道俄羅斯有意圖入侵的時候就採取了一些措施，包括烏克蘭的央行跟銀行也都有展開過壓力測試。所以我在這裡要提醒的是，部長有沒有可能考慮把金融、銀行相關的網路，就像您所說的認知作戰包含進來，有沒有可能進一步的找央行、找金管會甚至數發部來做一個整體的漢光金融演習的演練？不一定要納入這一次的四十號的漢光演習，但是未來有沒有可能加入？因為現在的作戰恐怕不是只是我們看到的槍砲彈藥實體型的、傷害式的作戰，金融的傷害其實可能更無形，而且更需要關注。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為我在國安會待過，這部分我們在國安會的時候，就相關的特別是涉及到全社會防衛韌性的這一塊，一旦發生任何臺海危機或者臺海有事的情況之下，各個部分要如何維持它的韌性，金融的韌性也是其中的一環，就我的理解是也在做相關的兵推，另外也要加強金融的韌性，就我的理解是如此。至於這整個部分要不要納入漢光演習，因為我們現在有民安、萬安、同心、自強演習，還有其他屬於全動署的，他們是作為一個秘書單位來安排，現在總統也說要成立全民社會防衛委員會，這樣的全社會防衛韌性或國家韌性的建構是非常重要的一環，我想哪些部分可以納入漢光兵推作為演練的一個部分，可能我們還要做跨部會的協調，特別是涉及到國安層級的，可能要由國安會甚至是跟行政院做一些協調，本部的立場應該是站在應該配合來實施這樣的演練。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我想以部長的經歷，從金管會到國安會再到現在的國防部，本席會在這裡提出建議跟建言，就是因為很多戰爭一開始恐怕不會是一顆炸彈，可能會是一個錯假訊息，就像您所說的，剛剛我特別提醒的金融漢光演習，從金融系統的謠言或金融系統的損壞造成社會的動盪，就如同每一次漢光演習只要演習完之後，中共都會幫我們免費出一些認知戰的假想，比如會講漢光演習之後，蔡英文就要落跑了啦，又或者是說像這一次漢光演習之前就開始放消息，說有內部消息舉出要取消什麼紅軍實兵演練，然後會有一些冒充軍職的假訊息出來。所以對於漢光演習來講，本席在這裡要提醒的就是認知戰的補強，包括有沒有成立第一時間反制錯假訊息的機構，這個部分剛剛部長已經有回應了。","最後我只是提醒部長，是不是可以把金融面、網路面跟科技面，就如您所說的，可能還要由更高層級來做一個大規模的開會跟演練，如果有相關的進度跟報告，是不是可以私下讓我們委員會知道？"],["顧部長立雄：就漢光演習在軍事面這一塊要不要再擴大到全社會防衛是可以討論的，但是這不是國防部一個部會可以做成決定的，應該還要跨部會來做相關的檢討。我從國安會出身，我理解這個部分的重要性，如果有必要進行相關的兵推或者兵推的演練，我們國防部都很樂意來配合。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請王定宇召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-29","speakers":["馬文君","賴士葆","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","黃國昌","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","林憶君","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢；二、審查\n本院委員馬文君等 21 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1年底知道俄羅斯有意圖入侵的時候就採取了一些措施包括烏克蘭的央行跟銀行業都有展開過壓力測試所以我在這裡要提醒的是部長有沒有可能考慮"},{"start":365.256,"end":387.802,"text":"把金融跟網路跟銀行相關的就像您所說的認知作戰已經包含進來的時候有沒有可能進一步的是找央行找金管會甚至於數發部來做一個整體的漢光金融演習的相關的演練不一定放到這一次的四十號的漢光演習但是未來有沒有可能有加入的可能因為"},{"start":388.882,"end":400.348,"text":"現在的作戰恐怕不是只是我們看到的這些槍、炮、彈藥實體型的傷害式的作戰。金融的傷害其實可能更無形而且更需要關注。"},{"start":401.139,"end":415.973,"text":"跟委員報告因為我在國安會待過這一個部分我們在國安會的時候就這個相關的涉及到特別是涉及到全社會防衛任性的這一塊我們將各種"},{"start":421.254,"end":422.035,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":440.452,"end":465.632,"text":"也在做相關的一些兵推要做相關的兵推然後另外也要加強他們的金融相關的韌性就我的理解是如此那至於他這個整個部分要不要納入漢光的這個部分因為我們現在有這個明安、萬安、彭新、志強這個部分那還有其他的這個整個的部分在屬於這個權動署他們所規劃的"},{"start":470.636,"end":486.165,"text":"他們是作為一個秘書單位,現在總統也成立說要成立全民社會防衛委員會,那相關的這樣子的"},{"start":491.536,"end":512.229,"text":"全社會防衛的這個韌性或者國家韌性的建構是非常重要的一環那我想哪一些部分可以納入到這個漢光的兵推的作為一個演練的一個部分呢這個部分可能我們還要做跨部會的一個協調特別如果涉及到"},{"start":513.229,"end":530.306,"text":"國安層級的那可能要由國安會那甚至是跟行政院那邊要做一些協調那本部的立場應該是站在要配應該來配合來實施做這樣子的一個演練"},{"start":531.431,"end":552.46,"text":"好我想因為以部長的經歷啦從金管會到國安會再到現在的這個國防部當中本席會在這裡提出建議跟建言就是很多的戰爭的一開始恐怕現在不會是第一顆炸彈可能會是第一個錯假訊息倒是我就像您所說的剛剛我特別提醒的金融漢光演習從金融系統"},{"start":554.621,"end":562.024,"text":"的謠言或者是金融系統的損壞造成社會的動盪就如同每一次我們漢光演習只要演習完之後中共都會幫我們免費出一些認知戰的假想啦比如說會講說漢光演習之後蔡英文就要落跑了啦又或者是說像這一次漢光演習之前就開始放消息說啊這個有內部消息舉出要取消什麼紅金時兵演練啊然後會有一些這個冒充軍職的假訊息出來啊"},{"start":583.433,"end":586.056,"text":"那麼所以說對於漢光演習來講本席在這裡會比較提醒的就是認知戰的補強包括有沒有第一時間有成立這種所謂錯假訊息的反制的機構那這個部分剛剛其實部長已經有回應了"},{"start":600.171,"end":622.122,"text":"那在最後的質詢的時間我只是提醒部長這裡是不是可以把包括金融的面、網路面跟科技面就如您所說的可能還要更高層級來做一個大規模的開會跟演練那麼相關的如果有進度跟報告的話是不是可以來私下跟我們委員會或者是相關的一個部分有些進展讓我們知道"},{"start":622.864,"end":644.785,"text":"就漢光的演習在軍事面這一塊要不要再擴大到全社會防衛是一個可以討論的啦但是這不是國防部應該一個部會可以做成決定的應該還要跨部會來做相關的檢討我想我從國安會出身我理解這個部分的重要性"},{"start":645.786,"end":649.129,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"}]}},{"id":"154230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd197f7cd18a8e94678c258fa09de8d0f30ee23585586e40b3ab88d7f28b768b82a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:16:10 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然後藉口呢"},{"start":269.571,"end":298.381,"text":"有沒有可能這個一定會審查因為後面你那個資本出資的背景是什麼這個如果要進來台灣還是要經過可是他如果用台灣目前擁有的資本下去做一個收購甚至他的預算不用給那麼多嘛不用給那麼多嘛我先把你換下來先把你拿下來之後"},{"start":299.485,"end":325.962,"text":"再去做後續的這有可能?是不是有可能?今天委員已經有提醒這件事如果我們有看到這有關聯性的時候我們會去注意這樣的一個關聯性我們會去注意所以如果台灣國際藍網通信股份有限公司今天要做任何的變更我們要小心要極度小心好不好今天我正式把這樣的問題然後"},{"start":328.922,"end":349.185,"text":"跟我們的次長就教甚至把這個資訊給你因為中國聯通剛好在接觸然後他的網路上也寫得很清楚他是中國聯通在台最佳的戰略合作夥伴所以剛剛好嘛"},{"start":350.936,"end":375.05,"text":"所以中國是不是會用榆木混珠的包裝方式然後甚至用港資或是台資來做收購該公司的股權來獲取台灣電信的牌照來統戰台灣這個要注意啊因為他這兩張特許牌是非常重要喔"},{"start":376.676,"end":382.023,"text":"是非常重要喔這兩張特許牌就是中國聯通中國看中的喔"},{"start":383.533,"end":409.832,"text":"所以如果今天他沒有用所謂的正常的管道程序而是用榆木混珠的利用台灣國際藍網同行股份有限公司本來就已經有這兩張特許執照了再用所謂的中資台資港資不管就是用榆木混珠的方式要企圖拿到你這兩張的特許權"},{"start":412.501,"end":432.247,"text":"甚至去干涉到我們所有的通信系統這現在在發生了而且極度有可能已經在進行當中了所以拜託次長要跟我們的投審會甚至因為如果用我們的這個台灣的資本"},{"start":434.721,"end":435.661,"text":"投診會看不到嗎?"},{"start":452.236,"end":480.612,"text":"一定要密切注意因為他這兩張的特許牌是非常非常重要的而且我再一次強調中國也就是看中了這兩張這兩張現在要拿很困難啦不這麼簡單啦他就是看中了這兩張看中了這兩張之後這一家公司也不會演的在他的網站當中說他就是中國聯通的最佳戰略夥伴"},{"start":482.26,"end":510.772,"text":"這麼清楚的所以拜託我們的次長請我們的投審會要密切我們會請投審會密切注意這件事情然後我們希望在未來國營事業的部分你在招攬我們所有的一些人才的部分還有我們要如何招聘要如何規劃要如何讓我們在用人費的部分要怎麼能夠恰到好處"},{"start":512.438,"end":527.752,"text":"不夠的要怎麼補足過多的要怎麼去做一些調節人才最重要我們要怎麼把我們國營事業要帶上來國營事業要帶上來沒有人才"},{"start":528.8,"end":528.82,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd154440efa75579297a22d6087941f42bcee23585586e40b3a3b21ad8153c732055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:07:05 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10:19:13","影片長度":"00:12:08","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:07:05+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:19:13+08:00","duration":728,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":238,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時7分）非常謝謝主席，我們現在請鄭部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員早！"],["柯委員志恩：部長好！我們同樣都是在教育現場工作得非常久，我覺得身為第一線助人工作者的老師，我今天站在這邊實在是感慨非常的多！大家都說一個文明的國家應該非常重視學生的心理健康，可是我們看看過去歷年這麼久以來我們永遠所有的修法都是在悲劇之後，你看看，在921之後，我們感受到專業輔導人員不足，所以我們通過了心理師法，在桃園的嚴重校園霸凌事件之後，我們增加了專任輔導老師，鄭捷事件之後，因為大家覺得學生的心理問題很嚴重，我們才通過學生輔導法，更不要說過去的精神衛生法或學校衛生法。我今天站在這個地方看到歷年的修法都是因為一個重大事件發生，所以今天為什麼學生輔導法這麼重要，就是我們希望能夠防堵未然，這是我們彼此共同應該都有的一個共識。","可是你看看現在我們的校園，我很快的幫部長overview一下，從2018到2022，5年增加2.5倍，我們非常關切的高中職、國中及國小，你可以發現，以臺北市為例的話，這6年來，自殺、自殘或是稱為自傷都可以，也增長了7倍，更不要說全國各級學校的自傷案件來說的話，從2016到2020可以說是暴增了7.3倍，這些數字只是讓我們瞭解，為什麼這部法是這麼樣迫切的需要。我當然也要肯定我們所有站在第一線的助人工作者。你會發現，其他的年齡層在自殺死亡率中逐漸下降，但是我們所關切的15歲到24歲，自殺死亡率近十年來可以說大幅的攀升，增幅是到7成8！我們再看看，讓我覺得更驚訝的是國小自殺的通報數字，從過去的114件到現在的1,183件，部長，這是國小，國小的部分5年來增長了將近10倍，我特別直指國小的學生，國中、高中、大專也都是一樣，這不是鼓勵大家勇敢地報出這些數字，而是提醒大家正視它背後所涵蓋的意涵。你看他們的自殺通報數是逐年增加，而且剛剛已經有委員提到了，12到17歲，還有我們所關切的15到24歲，曾幾何時，他們的死亡原因當中竟然自殺是高居第2位，自殺高居第2位是在我們的12到17歲，交通意外當然是最多，自殺竟然是第2位！所以無可否認的，我們這一部法的確需要很大的心理諮商人力，我們就一一來探索。","我更驚訝的，110年監察院報告已經指出，部長，請你看一下，學生自殺身亡的個案當中竟然有7成是沒有接觸過我們學校的輔導資源，7成沒有接受輔導！這是110年所提到的，所以3年又過去，我們的學生輔導法修法還在路上，還好明天終於車開到行政院了，這個讓我們也等太久了！到底我們要做什麼樣的事情呢？我們接下來看，當然我們當初非常的自豪，我們學校的輔導三級機制是亞洲裡面非常先進的，我也很肯定這樣的機制，但是它還是有很多的問題存在，部長，我們現在一一來看。","我現在先請問一下，搞了這麼久，從去年6月到現在，行政院明天所修的版本跟去年6月你們報院的有什麼不一樣？部長，你知道嗎？條文有什麼差別？同樣叫學生輔導法，等了這麼久，差別在哪裡？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指正，確實我們這一次也理解到整個社會大眾，包括家長……"],["柯委員志恩：沒關係，部長，我們都瞭解，你先告訴我，條文差別在哪裡？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想在第十條到第十一條委員所關心的大概有幾個，專業輔導人員，包括地方的規劃，包括兒童與少年的……"],["柯委員志恩：部長，其實根本沒什麼差別，你們浪費了一年多的時間，你把它對照過來，根本條文上沒有差別，這是讓本席覺得最不可思議的一件事情！大家都認為要跟地方政府去溝通，也知道你們在增加學輔人力這個部分裡面所遭遇的問題，可是從去年到今年根本就沒什麼差別，我們卡的地方還是在第四條、第十條及第十一條，就是有關於學輔中心的任務，還有包括編制，還有包括專任的輔導人員，這就是差別，還是很難達成共識。既然很難達成共識，你就早早送出來，我們其實在這個過程裡面可以透過逐條的審視來處理，不用等那麼久，所以我們一一來看。","部長，其實我自己本身就是實務工作者，我也跟所有的諮商輔導公會有密切的合作，我今天告訴你的部分都是他們在開過這麼多公聽會裡面所提出來的。部長，我想你也很清楚，因為你長期就在學校工作，包括導師、專輔老師合作的困難，還有包括介入性輔導銜接的困難，還有包括我們政府的政策一天到晚要求這些專輔老師做一大堆的行政工作，剛剛委員都提到了，所以我們要拿出解決的方法。你看這個三級機制要如何順利來轉銜，還有很重要的，第四條，明確的法令條文，我們要彰顯專業工作的需求，部長，這你也同意。"],["鄭部長英耀：這是我們努力的目標。"],["柯委員志恩：當然，我們接下來再看，還有包括遇到處遇性輔導的時候，我們人員的專業度，今天我們有太多太多專業度上面的問題，你現在都用什麼樣的態度來面對你們認為這麼重要的學輔中心，或是稱為諮輔中心，或是學諮中心，whatever，就是指這樣的部分？現在越來越多學生面臨很多的問題，但是我們帶來的制度面就是很不穩定，還有很多問題。","我們先來看看，以各地的輔諮中心來說的話，你看它的離職率多少？部長，你有看到嗎？最大的問題就是每個人都想轉介給輔諮中心，但是他們的困擾就是他們的離職率太高！而且有很多還是六都的，部長，你可以看一下，去年臺南的流失率是最高的，國教署應該有這些資料，而且平均離職率高於20%的縣市有多少？部長，有5個縣市高於20%，當學生要來這邊輔導，他已經很固定給這邊的老師輔導的時候，這邊的老師流失率那麼大，你讓這個學生就是二次被拋棄，你知道嗎？這對於很多學生來說才是最嚴重的問題！為什麼流失率這麼大？就表示制度的問題，我的學生每個人都是碩士畢業，他們還要接受1,600個小時的專業實習，結果到不同的地方。部長，你看，這是一個很活生生的例子，你不能祈禱在第一線工作者每個人都做功德，那是不可能的！你看看，同樣是具有這樣背景的人，任公務人員，他的薪資年功俸可以到5萬6,000多，任專輔，他也可以有5萬4到8萬8，但是在目前我們要法制化的學諮中心或叫輔諮中心，他的起薪就是只有4萬4，足足比第2部分的專輔就少了1萬元，一樣是我們訓練出來的學生，你看差距這麼多！","再給我1分鐘的時間。還有，目前帶領一個專業的單位，是用什麼人員？剛剛范雲委員，還有很多委員，都特別提出來了，你看這些輔諮中心的主任，我給你條列出來，都有碩士背景，還有博士，但要嘛不是所謂的候用校長，兩年之後就要去當校長了，要嘛很多是校長，還有很多是非專業人員，你看看這些人，又再一次用不是輔導專業的人力，你到底是怎麼樣，就給我填空在那邊，他們這些人流動率就很高啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，委員所關心的確實都是我們這一次努力要修正的目標，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：問題是你修正過來沒有，我其實有點不樂觀，你去年的條文跟今年的條文都一樣，你們都告訴我要努力，那這些問題，我們可以逐條來看看……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會努力，希望……"],["柯委員志恩：是，我們共同來努力……"],["鄭部長英耀：院版通過以後，能夠回應……"],["柯委員志恩：我當然希望，你也要讓我看一下，院版我現在看不到，明天才看得到，但是我已經知道，大概就是如此。還有這些專輔人力4年之後才有辦法變成督導，60%的專輔人員年資都在4年以下，他怎麼當督導？而且更不要說今天督導當完之後，他要回任專輔老師的時候，他的薪資還要被減薪。唉！部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我想這一個我們會努力來改進。"],["柯委員志恩：唉，部長，我們都很努力，我也知道你也很努力。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員的目標都是從專業，我覺得我是認同的。"],["柯委員志恩：是，我絕對專業，我是專業的老師，我當然專業，所以對這件事情我覺得一定要讓它快快過。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會朝那個目標……"],["柯委員志恩：最後一個問題，部長來看一下，每個人都提到，目前我們的規定是55班設置一個專輔，然後20校以下設一個，所以目前應該是有554個，但是我們應聘是770人。但是不好意思，部長，你們3月的院版越改越回去了，你們現在除了在20校設一人以外，你們希望改成4,500個人到5,000個人才設置一個人，現在都還有4,000人，你們改回來以後變成4,500到5,000人，你們越改越回去了，怎麼會這樣？以現在的學生總人數除以基數，我們需要的人力應該是720到800人，你們現在越改越回去，連基本門檻都沒有，所以我們的版本真的很符合、非常努力的符合，而且有憑有據，根據學校衛生法，我們很希望還是能夠40班大校、15校裡面，我們希望2,400人就可以額外多聘一個專輔人員，我覺得這才是一個文明社會真正告訴我，你重視所有學生的心理健康，不要讓悲劇發生之後……","如果這些人力能夠補足，我覺得這才是對臺灣、才是部長你照顧這些所有學生最大的一個體現。部長，你同意吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：委員的提醒、委員所指正的，我們會來努力。"],["柯委員志恩：好，等下下禮拜一本席排定我們逐條來做審查的時候，我們希望能夠採納各委員的意見，其實大家在考量經費之外，就是很希望這些學輔的人力能夠好好的補足，讓家長跟學生更放心，我們共同來努力，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委，謝謝部長。接下來有請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 18 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員許智傑等25\n人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生\n輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正\n草案」案；九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審查\n委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具\n「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分\n條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員郭昱晴等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員郭\n國文等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員郭國文等 19 人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條\n文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員萬\n美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條\n及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正\n草案」案；二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十\n五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十六、審查委員林\n月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案(僅進行詢答)","agenda_id":"1136601_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.09596875,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.47409375,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.31784375,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.63159375000001,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.44596875000002,"end":233.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.56409375,"end":267.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.63471875,"end":269.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.53284375000004,"end":274.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.32971875000004,"end":286.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.64034375,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.15471875000003,"end":302.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.86159375,"end":388.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.40971875,"end":303.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.97034375000004,"end":389.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.05034375,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.30221875,"end":446.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.62784375,"end":547.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.43909375,"end":554.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.8515937500001,"end":565.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.60096875,"end":571.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.71471875,"end":568.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.8828437500001,"end":587.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.5534687500001,"end":572.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.78721875,"end":596.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.78159375,"end":596.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.8659687500001,"end":608.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.93346875,"end":597.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.19034375,"end":603.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.68721875,"end":615.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.3615937500001,"end":611.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.9097187500001,"end":615.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.12471875,"end":615.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.4622187500001,"end":650.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.22159375,"end":616.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.4565937500001,"end":698.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.3984687500001,"end":705.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.4565937500001,"end":723.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.7578437500001,"end":723.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.81659375,"end":727.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.90034375,"end":727.9678437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":18.529,"text":"一人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":26.502,"end":51.17,"text":"委員長部長好我覺得我身為我們同樣都是在教育現場工作的非常久我覺得我身為第一線助人工作者的老師我今天正在這邊實在是感慨非常的多我想我們大家都說一個文明的國家應該非常重視學生的一個心理健康可是呢我們看看過去歷年來這麼久以來我們永遠所有的修法都是在悲劇之後你看看"},{"start":52.87,"end":58.374,"text":" lapt��二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案．一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案�"},{"start":72.805,"end":90.94,"text":"所以你看現在來說的話所以我今天站在這個地方我看到歷屆裡面的修法都是因為一個重大事件發生之後所以今天為什麼學生輔導法這麼重要就是我們希望能夠防堵未然這是一個我們彼此共同應該都有的一個共識可是你看看我們現在校園我很快的幫部長overview一下從2018到2022五年增加2.5倍"},{"start":98.626,"end":102.811,"text":"adequate high school grades, high school grades, high school grades, high school grades."},{"start":114.767,"end":118.128,"text":"那你更不要說各級學校在全國的自傷的案件來說的話從2016到2020可以說是暴增的7.3倍這些數字只是讓我們了解為什麼這部法是這麼樣的迫切的需要那我當然也要肯定我們所有站在第一線的助人工作者你會發現他其他的年齡層逐漸下降但是呢我們所關切的15歲到24歲"},{"start":141.292,"end":145.395,"text":"他的自殺死亡率近10年來可以說大幅的攀升,增幅是到7乘8。那我們再看看下面這一張,讓我覺得這更驚訝的是,國小。國小的自殺的通報數字,從過去的114年到現在的1183。部長,這是國小。"},{"start":162.549,"end":165.352,"text":"國小的過程五年來增長了將近十倍我特別直指國小的學生那國中、高中、大專都是一樣這不是說鼓勵大家勇敢地爆出這些數字而是它背後所涵蓋的一個意涵然後呢我們再往下"},{"start":179.628,"end":187.293,"text":"所以你看他的自殺通報數字逐年增加我們再往下面來去看而且剛剛委員提到了這個12到17歲還有我們所關切的15到24我們曾經核實我們死亡率當中竟然自殺是高居第二位自殺高居第二位是在我們12到17歲交通意外當然是最多自殺竟然是第二位"},{"start":204.665,"end":232.77,"text":"所以這個無可否認的我們這部法它的確需要很大的心理自傷人力所以我們就一一來探索那110年裡面我更驚訝的監察院已經報告了部長請你看一下這個學生自傷身亡的個案當中竟然有七成是沒有接觸過我們學校的輔導的七成沒有接受輔導的所以呢三年又過去這114年所提到的我們學生輔導法修法還在路上"},{"start":233.85,"end":238.932,"text":"還好明天終於已經車開到了行政院了好不好這個讓我們也等太久了那到底我們要做什麼樣的一個事情呢我們接下來去看當然我們當初非常的自豪說我們學校的輔導三級機制是亞洲裡面非常先進的我也很肯定這樣的一個需求但是它還是有很多的問題存在嘛部長我們現在一一來去看那我現在先請問一下"},{"start":257.72,"end":258.622,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":275.353,"end":288.904,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個指正,因為確實我們這一次也理解到我們整個社會大眾,包括從這個家長...沒關係你先告訴我,不然我們都了解條文差別在哪裡。我想在第10條裡面,到第10..."},{"start":291.286,"end":317.563,"text":"十一條委員所關心的大概幾個專業輔導老師專業輔導人員包括地方的一個規範包括兒童與少年﹑其實部長差別根本就沒有根本沒什麼差別你們浪費了一年多的時間根本條文上面有差別你把它對照過來這是讓本席覺得最不可思議的一件事情大家都認為要跟地方政府去溝通也知道你們在增加學府人力的這部分裡面所遭遇的問題"},{"start":318.163,"end":329.229,"text":"但是從去年到今年根本就沒什麼差別我們卡的地方還是在第四條第十條跟第十一條就是有關於這個學府中心的一個任務還有包括編制還有包括專任的輔導人員這就是差別還是很難達成一個共識那既然很難達成共識你就早早送出來我們其實該在這個過程裡面可以透過逐條的審視當中來不用等那麼久嘛所以我們一一來去看"},{"start":346.457,"end":346.717,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":376.577,"end":378.459,"text":"第三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具第4、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具第4、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":396.155,"end":396.395,"text":" ﹝審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 ﹞"},{"start":424.375,"end":429.961,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":446.818,"end":456.723,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等20人擬具、「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員范雲等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員林宜瑾等19人擬具:「學生"},{"start":473.311,"end":473.591,"text":"五、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":494.511,"end":520.852,"text":"但是你在裡面所認為目前我們要法制化的這個學資中心或叫輔資中心它的起薪就是只有4萬4他足足比純粹你看第二部分的裡面專訪就少了1萬塊我們訓練出來的學生你看差距這麼多我們再往下來看再給我一分鐘的時間還有目前帶領一個專業的單位剛剛范雲委員還有很多委員都特別提出來了你看他們這些"},{"start":522.213,"end":523.354,"text":"第二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬第二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬"},{"start":539.946,"end":541.867,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬具 «學生輔導法部分條文修正草案案案案件》案。議員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":565.782,"end":566.723,"text":"議員林宜瑾等19人擬議員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":587.839,"end":588.179,"text":"五、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":604.432,"end":606.073,"text":"adequate to the program."},{"start":634.292,"end":635.312,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":651.477,"end":657.02,"text":"所以說你看你們現在總人數除以基數應該我們需要的人力是702到800我們現在就已經是比你們這個部分你們現在月改會稅根本基本款都沒有所以呢我們真的很符合非常努力的符合而且有憑有據根據學校衛生法裡面我們很希望還是能夠40班大校15校裡面我們希望2400人就可以額外多聘一個專輔人員我覺得這才是一個"},{"start":680.93,"end":681.21,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":699.411,"end":701.792,"text":"二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬二、審查委員張雅琳等"}]}},{"id":"154226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1390754d5259fc356c258fa09de8d0f30ee23585586e40b3ade874dfe7e2ce6335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:05:40 - 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邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.83971875,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.05034375,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.30221875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.52471875,"end":88.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.41784375,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.87721875000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.02346875,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.88284375,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.06659375000001,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.92284375000001,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.02721875,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.55034375,"end":132.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.02596875,"end":144.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.18971875,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.91846875000002,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.60471875000002,"end":163.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.62409375000001,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.64096875,"end":173.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.04596875000001,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.97409375,"end":185.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.95971875,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.22846875000002,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.80221875,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.35909375,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.03346875000003,"end":208.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.67346875,"end":221.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.97971875000002,"end":220.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.70534375000003,"end":238.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.79159375,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.03596875000002,"end":246.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.49159375000002,"end":238.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.01784375000003,"end":246.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.69284375,"end":249.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.57846875,"end":250.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.91596875000002,"end":250.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.89471875,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.30784375000002,"end":253.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.52284375000002,"end":290.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.14159375,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.02971875000003,"end":306.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.51034375,"end":316.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.12909375000004,"end":323.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.16659375,"end":322.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.86221875,"end":323.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.38534375,"end":324.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.40221875000003,"end":328.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.87846875,"end":329.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.58284375,"end":343.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.65721875,"end":340.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.44596875,"end":341.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.57221875000005,"end":344.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.91784375000003,"end":348.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.27596875,"end":353.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.32596875,"end":409.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.31721875,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.58284375000005,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.03221875,"end":424.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.53409375,"end":426.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.64784375000005,"end":427.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.74471875,"end":450.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.82971875000004,"end":455.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.20471875000004,"end":455.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.30159375000005,"end":455.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.97659375,"end":457.34346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.15346875,"end":486.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.80721875,"end":486.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.90846875000005,"end":486.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.92534375,"end":494.87346875000003},{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請連次長我們再請連次長"},{"start":19.312,"end":21.095,"text":"臺灣對於大陸的貿易限制進行了貿易壁壘的這個調查"},{"start":34.716,"end":34.736,"text":"﹚呂玲"},{"start":58.231,"end":58.251,"text":"﹚呂玲"},{"start":80.586,"end":104.095,"text":"在這一次我們賴清德總統上任之後我們並沒有看到兩岸的破冰的這個契機所以這個ECFA在這個清單裡面所有的我們的關稅減免上會不會影響到我們未來的話會完全的這個就是所有的這個在賴清德總統這個任內可不可能就完全歸零了"},{"start":104.995,"end":108.958,"text":"根委員報告其實我們不做這種假設但是我們是用一個比較完整的一個分析就是說我們從去年開始在去年初的時候我們針對大陸有這樣的動作我們就把它假設說萬一它全部給我們取消的時候我們對產業我們要怎麼來協助它過過這個難關我們對產業尤其是傳產業因為大部分出口的部分的話都是屬於半導體的產品的電子零件的部分"},{"start":133.815,"end":160.781,"text":"我們傳統產業雖然說在這個出口上大概只有佔了2%而已但是你要怎麼樣協助他們你有什麼規劃跟委員報告其實從去年開始我們就跟像鋼鐵機械自行車紡織還有石化等等我們就一個一個為他們量身訂做什麼量身訂做我們有跟他們量身訂做說萬一這個完全取消的時候我們要怎麼去脫離紅色工業或怎麼去脫離對大陸的依賴"},{"start":162.541,"end":164.502,"text":"市長其實最重要的這些產業他們自己都知道技術怎麼提升最重要的目標我們會開拓其他市場這一定的那其他市場的競爭力在哪裡就是"},{"start":186.57,"end":187.791,"text":"我們針對這一部分就是說我除了提升你這樣的一個競爭力之外"},{"start":206.986,"end":216.632,"text":"那你要到比如說好他要到泰國那到泰國那個那一要落地的那一剎那我們去幫他協助他可以在那落地的時候怎麼去讓他進到那個市場這一部分我們去做一些協定也就是說現在我們的簽署FTA的這個國家目前只有8個那你是不是就是屬於區域的或是兩國的這種簽證的話簽約的話才能夠讓他們的關稅可以減低"},{"start":238.085,"end":253.519,"text":"對關稅檢定是這樣對對對對是不是這個我們也努力在做但是另外一部分是說還沒有再簽雙邊的FTA之外我們有另外一個方式來解決所以出口的關稅是非常重要你要幫他們找出路啊對是不是有有有好所以這個你必須要積極來做了因為我們有有有"},{"start":254.48,"end":254.62,"text":"好﹗好"},{"start":276.007,"end":285.919,"text":"接下來本席想請問的是因為現在大陸已經提出了這個ECFA的這個取消之後的話那未來的話在國際上他就會認為說我們現在的話這個"},{"start":291.189,"end":291.969,"text":"會不會碰到更多阻礙"},{"start":307.56,"end":308.141,"text":"可是現在GPTPP是會員國製的嗎?"},{"start":324.904,"end":336.834,"text":"會員國資的話那有一個會員國不同意我們就進不去的阿是不是我不說大陸其他國家因為我們讓國際會有這個訊息認為說我們台灣有這個貿易壁壘的情形阿所以你還是要繼續努力嗎你這麼有自信你要繼續努力所以現在CPTPP的進駐的情況怎麼樣我們已經申請了那有進駐嗎"},{"start":349.652,"end":370.441,"text":"這個是我們目前還在努力嘛所以會員國還是有阻礙嘛還沒全部的會員國都同意嘛所以這種現象你要小心的應對好好的規劃對大陸的多釋出像一些產品上可以免有這麼多的限制這樣只要大家能夠互動的話貿易壁壘的情形就會減少了"},{"start":371.681,"end":381.303,"text":"那接下來我們想請問的就是國營事業的人力問題回到正題裡面現在國營事業跟公營的事業臺電的話我們在針對這60歲到65歲因為60歲到65歲就要退休了在這5年情形或人力的缺口情形臺電的大概有2613人中油有2818人還有台糖有6"},{"start":399.167,"end":399.187,"text":"跟"},{"start":426.704,"end":450.067,"text":"委員報告我們除了禁用那個因為我們也會聘用當地的一些約聘僱的所以這種禁用的會從原籍公籍還有約聘僱這幾個方向來禁用還有我們目前也在跟一些高職的學校鄰近的高職學校去做合作那如果他一畢業產業合作對產學合作我們四大公司都有在跟"},{"start":450.908,"end":451.951,"text":"這不是根本的解決問題的方式啊"},{"start":458.24,"end":459.14,"text":"你這個人力還是繼續有缺口啊"},{"start":485.47,"end":490.115,"text":"您用產學合作不是根本的方法?不是說產學合作是其中一種方式主要還是從招聘這一部分來一年差不多有八九百位會去招聘那剛才講那個巡檢人力我們目前還是會透過一些世衛科技來做協助補助那這一部分我們台電已經"},{"start":503.969,"end":525.829,"text":"正對那些優先順序已經在安排在做處理本席會這麼提就是因為我們人力不足你都靠其他地方來支援就從新北苗栗新竹那邊調人力來我們桃園支援現在你不足的看新北不足的人79人桃園不足有35人新竹是19人苗栗也15人都在不足的情況下調配來桃園的話"},{"start":527.918,"end":544.628,"text":"那現在未來你的用什麼產學合作沒有根本解決方法那尤其是現在在招考方面現在我們國營事業跟公營的事業招考的人數也是減少了所以你的招考的人數減少之後你提高了這個這個整個這個鑑別的這個門檻讓他們都能夠進來這樣子你的數值會不會變得更低啊"},{"start":550.99,"end":575.085,"text":"是不是這樣子?跟委員報告齁,我們整體的用人數量一直在增加齁,就像前段時間臺電大概是兩萬六對,因為你的程式進步了嘛,所以用人會增加但是招考,考來報考的人數是減少的,那你那個入取率又提高,那我們本期是擔心你未來的這個品質素質上跟你的鑑別度的話都會下降了"},{"start":575.605,"end":595.148,"text":"所以我們在新進員工的薪水的部分也做得比較高你薪水調高了可是你的環境有沒有改善呢?你跟民間公司的話競爭民間的人才你很難因為民間公司整個環境都有改善那你本身公營事業都沒有這樣改善啦你調整薪水你的薪水比得上民間公司嗎?"},{"start":596.029,"end":622.728,"text":"當然薪水沒辦法跟一些特別大的這個就是競爭的人力的問題但是在住宿條件方面我們都提供宿舍盡量滿足當地的整體的工作環境還是要獲得改善所以你要積極本席提醒你未來這5年你的缺口會更大所以你整體的不能靠產學了我聽到你講產學我就擔心了我們要實質的技術人員人力人才才是最重要的好不好好"},{"start":624.914,"end":625.215,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154225","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154225","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd15354f3c5223b941008df44dd9bf560a2ee23585586e40b3adae08d90052531de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:04:01 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Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:04:01+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:14:34+08:00","duration":633,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":378,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時3分）主席，各位列席官員。主席，我想請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長好。我們的所得稅法，剛剛我做提案說明的時候也都有提到，我們是採扣繳制度，包含營利事業負責人、機關、團體、自然人都是扣繳義務人，在所得發生的時候，依照規定的扣繳率繳交稅款。當前扣繳義務人的制度存在有一定的局限性，有些應當承擔扣繳義務的機關沒有被涵蓋，所以導致稅款的扣繳不全或者是漏繳的現象。為了使扣繳義務人的義務及責任更符合事責一致原則，本席認為應將行政法人、破產財團之管理人等增為扣繳義務人。行政法人作為國家及地方自治團體之外，由中央事業主管機關為執行特定公共事務依法而設立之公法人，具有專業性以及一定的公信力，業務活動往往涉及大筆的資金流動，將行政法人納入扣繳義務人的範圍將有助於提高稅收的覆蓋率跟準確性。將破產財團之管理人納入為扣繳義務人是因為管理人在管理資產跟債務的時候，涉及的經濟活動也可能會產生稅款，將其列為扣繳義務人可以確保稅收的部分即時地繳納，避免因為破產程序的複雜性導致稅收的流失。部長認不認同本席將行政法人及破產財團之管理人增為扣款的扣繳義務人？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員，這個部分其實就能夠真的掌握到有關的稅源，讓扣繳制度更為落實，我們認同委員的看法，也敬表贊同。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝部長。再來就請教稅收的部分，因為報稅已經結束了，依據最近的財政報告，個人所得稅繳納的情況如何？今年採線上報稅的人數大概有多少？你能不能夠介紹一下今年超徵的稅收主要將要用於哪一些方面的支出，是否會針對特定的領域，例如公共基礎設施、教育、醫療或社會福利等重點的投入？請部長說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝。跟委員報告，截到5月底，我們全國稅收的總數有1兆3,263億，這是到5月底為止全國的稅收，中央的實徵數大概有8,980億，到目前為止，大概是達成我們原來預算數的40%。在今年5月份所得稅的部分，綜所稅的實徵數，全國數是2,363億，比去年增加了303億，屬於中央部分的是1,922億，比去年增加176億；但是在營所稅的部分是比去年下滑的，在全國的部分是2,923億，比去年少了447億，屬於中央的營所稅大概是2,630億，比去年減少了402億，大概目前的稅收狀況是這樣。目前來說，整個稅收成長最多的大概還是證交稅，因為日成交量的擴張接近5,000億，再加上天數比去年同期增加了6天，所以相比去年，到目前為止，到5月底我們證交稅收的是1,156億，比去年同期增加507億。","跟委員報告，在今年所得稅的申報部分，我們綜所稅大概85%是採取網路的申報；總申報件數，綜所稅是685萬件，85%採取網路申報，尤其手機報稅的件數更是成長，也就是我們在手機報稅的部分，讓民眾可以更方便，因為大家現在都有手機更便利，所以運用上成長了很多，這是跟委員報告的。","另外，如果今年的稅收會比預算數增加，我想第一個，還是基於維持財政的穩健，我們會減少舉債，本來需要舉債，我們希望就不要舉債；第二個，我們增加還債。也跟委員報告，在今年的6月因為我們的大額稅收進了以後，我們今年1,150億的債已經先還了，然後又增加還8億，所以今年到6月，我們還了1,158億，也就是這部分該還的債先還，也可以減少我們債息的支出，這是跟委員報告。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝部長。部長，房價居高不下，剛剛很多委員也針對新青安的部分來做出質詢，現在年輕人面臨買不起房子的困境，很多民眾就表示即便他們有穩定的收入還有儲蓄，但是他們還是難以支付這種日益攀升的房價，讓年輕人無法實現購房的理想，也影響了整體經濟發展還有社會的穩定。財政部推出的新青安貸款，原意是要協助年輕人購屋，提供優惠貸款，使他們能夠更容易地實現購房夢。但是這一個政策在過程當中出現一些問題，不肖人士鑽漏洞、炒房，然後利用人頭戶來做這種買賣，反而進一步推高了房價，背離了政策的初衷。為了要反制這些狀況，財政部6月19號也宣布新青安的安心成家三大精進措施，目的是要進一步地完善貸款制度，確保真正需要幫助的年輕人能夠受益，有效地抑制投機行為。部長，可不可以跟我們說明一下這三大具體措施是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於新青安貸款這樣的一個措施，它的政策利益是要幫助年輕朋友們想要買房子，可以運用這個新青安貸款來購屋，然後也在升息的趨勢當中，政府給予相關的利息補貼。目的就是讓沒有房子、住宅使用的年輕人可以買一棟自己的房子來做居住使用。但是現在外界有所謂的用人頭戶或者是做轉租這些，不是我們新青安貸款需要給予幫助的對象，所以就這個部分，公股行庫進行討論以後，包括貸前要核實查核是不是屬於投資或是人頭戶的申貸模式跟態樣，這個部分要加強審核。","第二個就是要強化貸後的管理跟稽查等等的方式。另外如果是新的貸戶，必須填寫切結書，告知他是符合新青安貸款的各項條件，而且不會出租，也不是人頭。我想這個部分很重要，也就是說，如果將來他有違反規定的話，所有利息補貼都不做了，而且從違反規定起的利息補貼都要追回，這個部分是在新青安貸款裡面我們公股行庫所採取的三項精進措施。我們希望要幫助的青年朋友們真的能獲得幫助，而不是拿這個來做投機或者是做轉租等等的行為，這並不是新青安貸款要補助的對象。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝部長。除此之外，我們各地方政府也開始採取活動，調整房屋稅收的政策，就是所謂的「房屋稅徵收自治條例」修正草案，主要是加重囤房稅率，增加房屋的持有成本，進而抑制投機行為和房價過快上漲。修正草案的核心是在於提高擁有多套房產的稅負，讓那些擁有大量房產的人，墊高他們的成本。我想這個部分也是在鼓勵要將這些房子、這些房屋可以釋放到市場上，讓市場上有這樣子的供應量，能緩解房價的壓力。到目前為止，全臺大概有七個縣市通過了這些修正草案，這些地方政府都希望透過這些措施能夠逐步地改善市場的供需關係，讓房價能夠趨於合理。","我想，除了地方政府的作為，我們希望中央主管機關的財政部及中央部會也要抑制這種投機行為，對於促進房屋市場健康發展的部分，應該要有更積極的作為，為年輕人實現購房的夢想，建構讓他們感覺到更友善、更健康的環境。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教，您剛剛提到了所謂的房屋差別稅率2.0，因為從今年7月1號上路，各地方政府都要修正它的自治條例來適用新的房屋稅條例裡面對稅率的一些規定。當然，我們的友善就是在於，如果你是單一、在全國只有一間，而且是自住使用的話，在稅率方面就會從原來的1.2%降為1%，這就是讓自住的人在稅的部分也可以減輕。","另外，房屋的差別稅率這邊是這樣訂，但是除了稅率之外還有一個很重要的就是稅基，也就是房屋課稅現值，這個部分我們也會督請各地方政府要覈實地調整、評定他們的課稅現值，讓真正房屋稅的負擔在一個合理的狀態。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員質詢。","接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","王世堅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅\n法部分條文修正草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1136501_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.33471875,"end":0.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.38534375,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":3.3215937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.46284375,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.67721875,"end":29.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.18659375,"end":31.789718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.90784375,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.033468750000004,"end":41.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.032843750000005,"end":44.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.47971875,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.103468750000005,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.98846875,"end":56.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.05159375,"end":59.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.835968750000006,"end":62.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.09284375000001,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.11346875000001,"end":71.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.73284375,"end":74.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.39471875000001,"end":78.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.29284375,"end":81.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.79034375,"end":87.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.59096875,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.65784375000001,"end":94.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.34534375000001,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.83346875000001,"end":106.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.71034375,"end":109.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.12346875,"end":114.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.35471875,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.80596875,"end":118.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.30346875000001,"end":121.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.59846875000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.92284375000001,"end":135.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.80721875,"end":140.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.76846875,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.18159375000002,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.72971875000002,"end":148.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.71659375000002,"end":151.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.68659375000001,"end":158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.38159375,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.22471875000002,"end":169.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.67534375000002,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.37346875000003,"end":241.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.10721875000002,"end":253.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.01659375000003,"end":304.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.29971875,"end":306.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.93659375000004,"end":313.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.77096875,"end":317.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.95596875,"end":318.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.63096875,"end":338.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.44221875,"end":338.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.08346875,"end":342.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.37409375000004,"end":345.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.19221875,"end":351.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.73971875,"end":356.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.25784375,"end":360.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.95346875,"end":369.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.50909375000003,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.81596875,"end":378.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.87471875,"end":379.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.66784375000003,"end":384.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.23659375,"end":390.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.85596875000005,"end":394.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.75409375000004,"end":417.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.68721875,"end":434.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.16971875,"end":442.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.59471875,"end":451.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.38659375000003,"end":461.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.98409375000006,"end":462.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.99659375000005,"end":472.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.543468750000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謝謝部長部長這個房價高居不下剛剛很多委員都分決都針對這個新秦案的部分來做出一個質詢那現在年輕人買不起房子的這種困境那很多民眾都表示即便他們有穩定的收入還有這個儲蓄但是他們還是難以支付這種"},{"start":325.469,"end":328.45,"text":"提供優惠貸款使他們能夠更容易的實現購房夢但是這個政策的過程當中出現一些問題這個不肖人士的一個"},{"start":352.137,"end":354.605,"text":"轉漏洞、炒房然後利用人頭戶來做這種買賣"},{"start":357.321,"end":384.194,"text":"反而進一步對高的房價備以政策的初衷為了要反制這些狀況所以財政部6月19日也宣布了這個新清安的安心成家就是三大精進措施那目的是要進一步的完善貸款制度確保真正需要幫助的年輕人能夠受益那有效的抑制投機行為部長可不可以跟我們說明一下這個三大具體措施是什麼"},{"start":386.145,"end":397.57,"text":"對於新清安貸款這樣的一個措施他的政策利益是要幫助年輕朋友們他想要買房子那可以運用這個新清安貸款來做一個購屋"},{"start":398.769,"end":417.057,"text":"在升息的趨勢當中政府給予相關的一個利息補貼目的就是讓沒有房子住宅使用的年輕人可以買一棟自己的房子來做居住使用但是現在外界有所謂的就是說用人頭戶或者是做轉租這些但不是我們新清安貸款需要"},{"start":417.897,"end":442.175,"text":"給予幫助的對象所以我們這個部分供股行庫有進行討論以後包括貸錢要核實的一個查核他是不是有沒有是不是屬於投資或是人頭戶這個身貸模式跟太陽這個部分要加強審核第二個就是要強化貸貨的管理跟積查包等等的一個方式會做那另外如果新的貸戶他必須要提寫切結書告訴他說他是符合"},{"start":442.682,"end":469.018,"text":"新清安貸款的各項條件而且不會做出租業不是人頭我想這個部分這個很重要也就是說如果將來他有這樣違反規定的話那所以利息補貼都不做了而且從違反規定起的利息補貼都要追回這個部分是在新清安貸款裡面而我們的公股行戶才採取三項的經濟措施我們希望要幫助的青年朋友們能真的獲得幫助而不是拿這個來做投機或者是做"},{"start":469.898,"end":496.744,"text":"轉租等等這樣的一個行為並不是新清安貸款要補助的對象好謝謝部長那除此之外那我們各地方政府也開始採取活動調整房屋稅收的政策那就是所謂的房屋稅收自治條例修正草案那主要是加重囤房稅率增加房屋的持有成本進而抑制投機行為和房價過"},{"start":497.884,"end":497.944,"text":"委員．顏寬恒"},{"start":513.88,"end":540.327,"text":"那我想這個部分鼓勵也是要將這些房子這些房屋可以釋放到市場上讓市場上有這樣子的供應量能緩解房價的壓力那到目前為止大概有全台有7個縣市通過了這些修正草案那這些地方政府都希望透過這些措施能夠逐步的改善市場的供需關係讓房價能夠趨於合理"},{"start":541.327,"end":567.885,"text":"我想除了這個地方政府的作為我們希望中央主管機關也是我們財政部、中央部會也是要抑制這種投機行為還有促進房屋市場的健康發展的部分應該要有更積極的作為能夠更積極然後實現一個友善的對年輕人能夠購房的一個夢想讓他們感覺到更友善、更健康的一個環境"},{"start":569.198,"end":572.508,"text":"謝謝委員的指教。您剛剛提到就是所謂的房屋差別稅率2.0的各個"},{"start":573.615,"end":592.749,"text":"因為從今年7月1日就上路了然後各地方政府都要修正他的自治條例來適用新的房屋稅條例裡面稅率的一些規定那當然我們的友善就是在於如果你是單一只有一間在全國只有一間而且自住使用的話在稅率從原來的1.2%降為1%這就是讓你自住的人在稅的部分也可以減輕那另外就是說這個房屋我們差別稅率這邊是這樣定但是還除了稅率之外還有一個很重要就是稅基"},{"start":603.297,"end":621.468,"text":"所以就是房屋課稅限制那這個部分呢我們也會督請各地方政府呢要合時的調整他們的評定他們的課稅限制讓真正的房屋稅的一個負擔在一個合理的狀態是好謝謝部長謝謝委員接著我們請李燕秀文質詢"}]}},{"id":"154224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd196956ecb6e9e3d1608df44dd9bf560a2ee23585586e40b3acc39bfe734ae9a435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"09:51:56 - 10:03:51","影片長度":"00:11:55","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:51:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:03:51+08:00","duration":715,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時51分）謝謝主席。請財政部部長，還有賦稅署署長。"],["主席：有請莊部長、宋署長。"],["賴委員惠員：財政資訊中心張主任。"],["主席：請張主任。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長早安。5月的報稅已經結束了，但今年的所得稅稅收是不是符合財政部的預期？我們知道今年的預估是：到4月底，證交稅收到1,156億，顯然比之前提升；房地合一稅在4月底是165億；綜所稅在4月底是7,000億；營所稅在4月底是9,000億。但目前我們看到的這些數字有沒有落實扣繳義務？我想請教部長，今年所得稅稅收是不是符合財政部預期呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，所得稅在綜所稅部分，到5月底為止，全國綜所稅為2,363億，比去年增加303億，達成預算數35.8%；屬於中央的部分是1,922億，比去年成長176億，最主要是薪資所得增加，還有利息所得增加，所以綜所稅收入增加。至於營所稅的部分，因為去年營利事業的獲利情形是下滑的，所以營所稅的部分比去年減少，在全國數1到5月收入是2,923億，比去年少了400多億；在中央的部分是2,630億，也比去年少了402億。其實我們在預算編列時，營所稅的預算數字就是比去年減少，是負成長的，因此跟我們當時的預估很接近。"],["賴委員惠員：顯然還是有一些落差……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，落差比較大的就是證交稅。證交稅到5月底為止，我們收了1,156億，比去年同期增加507億，最主要是因為今年整體日均量都接近5,000億……"],["賴委員惠員：部長，證交稅的增加表示股市是熱絡的……"],["莊部長翠雲：是熱絡的。"],["賴委員惠員：所以大家基本上普遍有賺到錢，有多餘的錢可以投資。不管是從中國撤回來的資金，還是科技產業賺到很多錢，就事實來說，就是超過預算數，所以財政部每年編列預算時會不會趨於保守？為什麼會提這個問題？如果是保守的預算數預估，其實會影響到國家整體的財務規劃，這個問題有沒有辦法做修正？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的指教。對於財政部每次所預估的預算數好像每次都跟實徵數有一段差距，跟委員報告，第一，因為從預算數的編列到實徵數的實徵完成，大概有將近一年半到兩年的時間差，比如說現在估114年的整體稅收，可是現在的預估，跟明年國際政經情勢有什麼樣的變化……雖然我們會儘量去掌握，但有的時候會有落差，不過我們也不能因為這個理由就不去精進。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們在112年時就開始估113年預算，並成立專案小組……"],["賴委員惠員：最重要就是財政部可以預估到未來，然後還要精準！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，除了財政部之外，我們也會邀請中央銀行、國發會等相關機關，以及專家學者一起來探討每一個稅目會影響的因子來做更切實的估測……"],["賴委員惠員：部長，你已經進入狀況，也知道本席所要求的是什麼。接著請教賦稅署署長，臺灣少子化及高齡化的趨勢已經擋不住了，國發會最新發布的人口推估報告指出，從2022年到2070年，臺灣即將正式步入超高齡社會！接著要探討的是扶老比與申報狀況不成正比。今年的申報戶數跟數額有沒有增加？顯然看起來好像沒有增加，沒有增加的原因是什麼？是不是請署長來回應這個問題？"],["宋署長秀玲：先跟委員報告，112年度的所得稅申報，因為5月才剛辦完，所以目前我們沒辦法掌握到底申報長照特別扣除的戶數是增加或減少。跟委員特別說明的是，申報長照特別扣除必須符合幾個條件：第一，當然要符合衛福部所稱的身心失能資格；第二，有排富條款，簡單講，即使符合身心失能資格，如果在排富範圍內的，還是不能扣。以至於我們可以看得出長照特別扣除的戶數……"],["賴委員惠員：我們看得出來，長照申報的條件太嚴苛，當然，條件太嚴苛其實不是你們的問題，是衛福部的問題。可是當初在政策溝通時，你們一定有共同討論，也就是賦稅署、財政部跟衛福部共同去討論。不過條件這麼嚴苛的話，為什麼我要提到臺灣進入超高齡社會？因為很多人就算家裡需要申報扶老的，但並沒有辦法從申報扣除額得到照顧，這是我要跟你提出的問題。況且通膨的情況一再發生，以致很多人看得到吃不到，就因為條件嚴苛！","接著我再跟你探討租金問題。由於租金持續上漲，今年租金扣除額申報的情況怎麼樣？"],["宋署長秀玲：因為今年剛辦完，還看不出來，也……"],["賴委員惠員：還看不到？"],["宋署長秀玲：對，不好意思。"],["賴委員惠員：其實臺灣的整體稅收扣到誰？扣到這些打工的人，扣到這些公務人員，扣到這些財產、報稅不能閃避的人，因為跑不掉！跑不掉的時候，如果房東不給報，那麼我們就沒有辦法看到正確的……為什麼整體租金持續地上漲？就是因為我們抓不到問題，因為房東認為房客如果報了，最後還是扣回房客身上，是不是這樣的情況？其實我已經要到資料了，也就是109年、110年及111年，這不是針對今年，不過今年的狀況大概可以預期也是一樣，租金一直漲，顯然房客還是一樣要付很多的房租費用，這個有沒有好一點的方式可以做調整？就是比較好的一個優化的稅制可以讓納稅人回歸到常軌，這個是我要跟署長做一個討論的。"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["賴委員惠員：我也希望署長可以會後提出一個比較好的建議案給本席。"],["宋署長秀玲：是，我們會有一個書面說明。"],["賴委員惠員：再一個議題是高齡化社會的衝擊，老人家庭的收入不到全體家庭的六成，我這裡要請教財資中心，有沒有辦法用納稅的大數據去找出這些弱勢家族的需要？主任，2022年老人家庭的收入是77萬，這個77萬你怎麼算出來的？"],["張主任文熙：這個應該是依據他的年齡來做統計，剛才有講……"],["賴委員惠員：什麼叫依照他的年齡？幾歲叫做老人家庭？"],["張主任文熙：這邊因為是主計總處的調查，所以它的來源計算可能要先問他們怎麼界定老人家庭的範圍。"],["賴委員惠員：要問他們？所以你不清楚？"],["張主任文熙：是。"],["賴委員惠員：你是資訊中心的主任，所以你在盤算很多資訊的時候，你不知道所有調查的條件嗎？你應該會去瞭解啊！"],["張主任文熙：我們這邊是以稅的條件來做瞭解，那麼像老人扶養的部分……"],["賴委員惠員：好，以稅的話，老人家庭一定就是有領月退的，還有還在領薪水的，另一個是沒有薪水收入的，不是這些項目嗎？"],["張主任文熙：我們這邊有一種是扶養的……"],["賴委員惠員：你告訴我這個是主計總處調查的，所以我要問國發會，怎麼會是這樣的回答呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，這部分是不是會後我們再跟主計總處瞭解，然後再跟委員做一個報告，好不好？這個部分我們再瞭解這個數據的統計方式，我們再來瞭解。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，其實針對這個問題，我是說我們有沒有辦法去做一個財稅的大數據，這一個大數據就是可以完整提供給跨部會的每一個部會，讓他們在政策的訂定上可以更精準？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。我想我們財資中心有相關的數據，做一些加值的運用也是很重要，至於委員這邊所質詢的事項，是不是容我們再進一步地去瞭解以後，再跟委員做報告？"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：對於剛剛委員所關心租金支出的所得稅裡面的扣除，其實從113年開始實施，租金支出已經轉為特別扣除額，所以不會再被所謂的標準扣除額給蓋住，未來它會專門在特別扣除額給予扣除。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我跟你講，你跟我都非常清楚，其實就是貧富不均，然後通膨的狀況越來越嚴重，如果我們沒有一個財稅的大數據給每一個跨部會的單位，其實我們定出來的稅則會讓老百姓覺得有非常大的挫折感，為什麼這個國家是這樣子扣我們的稅、我的國家為什麼這樣扣我們的稅呢？所以這個是非常重要的，請會後一週內提供給本席，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們把相關所得稅制優化的一些方案提供給委員，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢。","接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","王世堅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅\n法部分條文修正草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1136501_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.3134687500000002,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.14034375,"end":3.6759687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.01346875,"end":19.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.80846875,"end":23.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.31409375,"end":31.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.549093750000004,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.197843750000004,"end":48.158468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.52971875,"end":50.993468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.60096875,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.018468750000004,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.00471875,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.072218750000005,"end":114.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.39909375,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.31784375000001,"end":81.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.33034375000001,"end":82.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.10034375000001,"end":96.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.25346875000001,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.12596875000001,"end":124.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.48409375000001,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.32346875,"end":127.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.00471875,"end":176.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.71534375000002,"end":157.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.06659375,"end":184.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.96409375000002,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.02971875,"end":197.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.77221875,"end":198.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.00846875000002,"end":198.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.76784375000003,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.60034375,"end":218.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.76846875,"end":221.95409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.95721875,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.95659375000002,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.15409375000002,"end":240.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.96346875,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.39784375000002,"end":257.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.14034375000003,"end":246.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.33721875,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.88909375000003,"end":260.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.28534375000004,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.64346875,"end":297.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.24596875000003,"end":333.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.84846875,"end":341.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.73284375000003,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.64284375,"end":400.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.74034375,"end":405.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.54159375,"end":406.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.07721875000004,"end":406.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.12784375,"end":410.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.80221875,"end":417.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.29471875,"end":424.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.97721875,"end":434.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.37659375000004,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.20346875,"end":436.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.05971875,"end":450.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.69471875000005,"end":453.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.95159375000003,"end":466.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.65409375,"end":471.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.75471875000005,"end":494.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.38534375,"end":487.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.02971875000003,"end":496.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.04659375000006,"end":495.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.89846875,"end":496.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.91534375000003,"end":496.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.96596875000006,"end":503.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.23596875000004,"end":497.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.24346875000003,"end":504.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.81284375,"end":510.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.49971875000006,"end":522.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":521.0634687500001,"end":521.87346875},{"speak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要跟你探討胡老比跟申報的狀況不曾正比今年的申報戶數跟數額是不是有增加顯然看起來好像沒有增加沒有增加是什麼原因呢是不是請署長來那個回應這個問題"},{"start":298.354,"end":317.996,"text":"先跟委員報告112年度的所得稅申報約5月才剛辦完所以目前我們沒辦法掌握到底申報長照特別扣除的戶數是增加或減少那跟委員特別說明的是說因為我們申報長照特別扣除它必須符合幾個條件第一個當然要符合衛福部所證的身心思能"},{"start":318.476,"end":319.918,"text":"我們看得出來就是說整個申報長照的這個條件太嚴苛"},{"start":337.838,"end":361.252,"text":"這個太嚴苛其實不是你們的一個問題這個是那個衛福部的一個問題可是當初在政策的一個溝通裡頭你們在一定是有共同討論嘛負稅組跟財政部然後跟這個衛福部共同去討論那你這個條件這麼嚴苛其實就是說為什麼我要跟你講說進入超高齡社會"},{"start":362.273,"end":376.867,"text":"那顯然大家就是說我家裡頭有需要這個胡老鼻的結果跟我的就是整個那個扣除的一個那個申報的一個扣除額裡頭我沒有得到照顧啊"},{"start":377.728,"end":399.656,"text":"所以這個是我跟你目前就是跟你那個提出來的況且通盤的情況一直在發生所以有很多人是看得到吃不到因為你的條件很嚴苛啊所以接著我再跟你探討一個就是說我們的租金租金的一個持續的一個上漲今年的租金扣除了申報的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":401.972,"end":424.206,"text":"因為今年剛到然後還看不出來,不好意思。那其實台灣的整體的稅收都是扣到誰?扣到這些打工的人,扣到這些公務人員,扣到這些財產,就是說你的那個整個報稅都是不能閃到旁邊的人,因為跑不掉嘛。"},{"start":425.026,"end":449.88,"text":"那跑不掉的時候如果就是說黃東不給報的話那其實我們都沒有辦法看到一個正確的一個就是整體就是為什麼租金持續的一個上漲我們抓不到一個問題嘛就是因為黃東黃東認為就是說我如果報了以後那我還是扣在黃柯的身上是不是這樣的一個情況其實我已經要到資料啦"},{"start":450.76,"end":450.78,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":467.694,"end":491.984,"text":"就是要付很多的一個房租費用所以這個有沒有什麼好一點的方式可以就是說來做一個調整就是比較好的一個優化的一個稅制可以讓納稅人回歸到常軌這個是我要跟署長做一個討論的那我也希望就是說署長你可以就是會後提出一個比較好的"},{"start":494.205,"end":497.187,"text":"我這裡要請教財政中心有沒有辦法用納稅的一個大數據去找出這些弱勢家族的一個需要"},{"start":520.586,"end":527.299,"text":"主任,我想就是說這個2022年老人家庭的收入是77萬,這個77萬你怎麼算出來的?"},{"start":534.539,"end":556.058,"text":"這個應該是依據他的年齡來做統計啦那我剛才有講這個什麼叫依照他的年齡?老人家庭?幾歲叫做老人家庭?這邊應該是這個主計總署的這個調查所以他的那個來源計算可能要先問他們他們怎麼界定這個老人"},{"start":556.718,"end":584.286,"text":"要問他們所以你不清楚是是是那你是資訊中心的主任是是所以你在盤算很多的一個資訊的時候你不知道他的一個他的所有調查的一個條件嗎你應該會去了解啊我們這邊是以稅的這個條件來做了解啦那像這個老人服務的部分好以稅的話你以稅的話那當然就是說好這個老人家庭的話一定就是"},{"start":585.527,"end":593.848,"text":"有領是領業退的然後還有就是繼續還在領薪水的一個是沒有薪水收入的不是不是這些項目嗎"},{"start":597.48,"end":615.676,"text":"所以你告訴我說這個是主席總署調查的所以我要問國花會怎麼會是這樣的一個回答呢委員這個部分我們是不是會後第一個我們再跟主席總署了解然後再跟委員做一個報告好不好這個部分我們再了解這個數據所以部長其實針對的這個問題我是說我們沒有辦法就是"},{"start":620.16,"end":620.18,"text":"﹚賴惠員"},{"start":646.843,"end":662.951,"text":"那對於剛剛委員所關心的一個租金支出的一個所得稅裡面的扣除其實從113年開始實施我們的租金支出已經轉到為特別扣除額所以不會再被所謂的標準扣除額給蓋住所以未來他會專門在特別扣除額給扣除"},{"start":664.252,"end":681.284,"text":"你跟我都非常清楚其實就是貧富不均然後通膨的狀況越來越嚴重那如果我們沒有一個財稅的大數據給每一個跨部會的那個單位的話其實我們訂出來的一個稅者會讓"},{"start":682.705,"end":683.445,"text":"謝謝大會委員的質詢。請接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"},{"start":715.44,"end":715.623,"text":"朱熹"}]}},{"id":"154223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1f118dfa0ba5920de309e96bb53525717ee23585586e40b3ae958305795fbbbcc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:04:56 - 10:14:05","影片長度":"00:09:09","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢。\n二、審查本院委員馬文君等21人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T10:04:56+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:14:05+08:00","duration":549,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":29,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-29"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":196,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。在2017年的時候，立法院因為使用中國製的太陽能逆變器，它叫做inverter，基本上是直流電轉換成交流電的一個太陽光電模組當中必備的部分，裡面幾乎都有內嵌monitor unit，也就是遠端可以看發電的數量。這件事情後來被披露了以後，我們執政黨的蔡易餘立委跟前立委陳柏惟做了一個非常重要的記者會，說禁用中國的逆變器，要不然會有嚴重的紅色危機，到目前為止，國防部是不是有一個清楚的政策立場，在國防部重要的軍事要塞所使用的光電或者逆變器禁用中國製的產品？"],["顧部長立雄：我們本部在契約書裡面有特別增訂不得使用陸製品的一個條文。"],["黃委員國昌：這是統一的，在每一份契約裡面都有這樣的規定嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，因為我接到檢舉，我們國家注資30億，我們的國發會跟耀華玻璃是第一大股東，號稱綠能國家隊的聯合再生，他們承接國防部非常多光電招租的案子，也就是用我們國防部包括很多軍事要塞的土地、屋頂做太陽能光電，基本上推動再生能源，我們都支持，但是在我們軍事要塞裡面做太陽光電模組的這件事情是不是會用到中國製產品、有沒有國安危機這件事情就變得很重要，因為這個事不是今天才發生。我接到的檢舉是說，在陸軍蘭陽地區指揮部的光電標租案裡面，得標的就是我們綠能國家隊的子公司，叫做永梁公司，這家公司當初在競標的時候承諾要使用國內領導品牌的變流器，結果沒想到跟國防部爭取標案的時候說一套，實際做的是另外一套，實際做的是哪一套？","如同剛剛部長所說的，在租賃契約書裡面已經白紙黑字寫不可以使用大陸地區的產品，但我接到的檢舉是在蘭陽地區指揮部裡面，所有用的逆變器都是中國製的產品，因為這個檢舉很嚴重，所以我昨天特別跑去蘭陽指揮部現勘，也非常感謝我們蘭陽指揮部的弟兄，很辛苦！昨天太陽很大，陪我在那邊看，結果我看到的、部長您現在看到的就是所謂的逆變器，旁邊貼的貼紙大剌剌的就寫made in China、大剌剌的就寫made in China，這讓我們非常困惑、非常狐疑。當初這個東西在裝的時候，契約書已經載明不可以做這件事情，他們還是無視於國防部相關的規定，甚至是契約上面的要求，做了這件事情，而且毫不避諱的就在產品上面的貼紙寫著made in China，這件事情我昨天去蘭陽指揮部完了以後，我有跟現場主持會議的指揮官說，這件事情麻煩請他昨天回去的時候要跟部裡面報告，部長有沒有收到這樣的訊息？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，有。就我現在得到的訊息，這一個逆變器也好或者變流器也好，它是德國一個叫SMA的公司品牌，但是在大陸組裝的，現在確認有違約使用的大概是44個，我們會依約要求承商在一個月內將這些陸製品拆除，更換符合契約規範的產品。"],["黃委員國昌：我今天質詢這件事情的時候要請部長注意，因為後續處理這件事情，這家廠商是惡劣至極，明明就知道不可以這樣做，它還是決定這樣做，如果今天國防部在主張權利的時候，只是要求這個恣意妄為、胡作非為的廠商更換完，部長，你覺得對這個廠商會有任何嚇阻的效力嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會按照合約條款的內容，但我到現在為止沒有清楚地看到合約條款的內容，我們一方面要求他這個要改進，我們也會清查有沒有類案的情形，有類似案件的這些情形我們都會來全面的清查。"],["黃委員國昌：因為部長是非常優秀的法律人，特別拜託部長回去看國防部的契約，如果在國防部的契約裡面，對於這種無視國防部的政策、無視契約條款，根本恣意妄為的廠商，如果訂的契約法律效果只是被抓到了以後換回來就好了，我必須要說不會有任何嚇阻的效果，以後他就繼續這樣幹，因為如同剛剛部長所點出來的，這家廠商是不是被欺騙，所以才去用中國的逆變器？不是！他從頭到尾就知道他用的是中國的逆變器，而且我再跟部長報告一下，用的範圍恐怕不是只有蘭陽指揮部，因為到目前為止，我所蒐集到的資訊，包括了在高雄的海軍艦隊指揮部，包括了國防大學，包括了三軍總醫院松山分院，這家廠商非常厲害，國防部非常多營區全部都有他們的案子，他們可以這樣恣意妄為、無視規定，如果最後國防部所謂的依照契約辦理，只是要求他換過來的話，恐怕是沒有辦法真正的遏阻未來有類似的不肖廠商依樣畫葫蘆，反正他就先用，被抓到了以後再換回來就好了。部長，是不是可以承諾嚴肅的檢討目前契約的規範是不是只能夠要求他換，還是應該要採取更嚴厲追訴法律責任的行動？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會來檢視整個合約內容有沒有類似有一些相關的這個……就是說我們要合於約定的相關內容來處理。另外，我們也會全面清查國軍所有設置太陽光電的營區是不是有使用陸製品的設備。"],["黃委員國昌：好，部長，最後一點提醒就好了，因為這個東西是驗收通過的，今年2月驗收通過的，我昨天在現場的時候，其實我很困惑，因為我一看到那個機身旁邊的貼紙就寫made in China，我的困惑在於人家就已經大剌剌的也不遮掩，就是made in China，我們驗收怎麼會通過？但請部長不要誤會我的意思，我沒有意思要去追究蘭陽指揮部弟兄們的責任，因為我知道他們很辛苦，這些光電產品未必也是他們所熟悉的，但是，是不是在驗收的SOP上少了關鍵的一環？譬如說，要求廠商出具原產地證明，沒有出具這個東西的話，驗收不會通過，因為我相信如果當初驗收的SOP有這個要求的話，應該不會出現這麼離譜的狀況，是不是可以請一併檢討驗收程序，未來不要讓這個不肖廠商有上下其手的空間？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會一併來檢討委員所指教的這樣子的……就是說有這樣的要求，我們會來一併納入檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-29","speakers":["馬文君","賴士葆","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","黃國昌","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","林憶君","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢；二、審查\n本院委員馬文君等 21 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unit,也就是遠端,可以看它發電的數量。"},{"start":35.124,"end":54.364,"text":"這件事情後來被披露了以後後來被披露了以後我們執政黨的立委參與議委跟前立委陳柏惟做了一個非常重要的記者會說禁用中國的逆變器要不然會有嚴重的紅色危機"},{"start":56.305,"end":78.706,"text":"當目前為止,國防部是不是有個清楚的政策立場在國防部重要的軍事要塞所使用的光電或者是逆變器禁用中國製的產品?我們本部在區議員署裡面特別有鎮定不得使用陸製品的一個條文這個是統一的,在每一份企業裡面都有這樣的規定嗎?是"},{"start":81.55,"end":106.044,"text":"因為我接到檢舉我們國家注資30億我們的國發會跟耀華玻璃是第一大股東號稱綠能國家隊的聯合戰神他們承接了國防部非常多光電招租的案子也就是用我們國防部包括很多軍事要塞的土地、屋頂做太陽能光電那基本上"},{"start":107.421,"end":124.93,"text":"推動再生能源我們都支持但是在我們的軍事要塞裡面去做太陽光電的模組這件事情事實是會用到中國製的產品有沒有國安危機這件事情就變得很重要因為這個事不是今天才發生"},{"start":126.294,"end":150.37,"text":"但我接到的檢舉是說我們在陸軍南洋地區的指揮部光電的標出案裡面得標的就是我們綠能國家隊的子公司叫做永良公司那這家公司呢當初在競標的時候說他要承諾使用國內領導品牌的變流器結果沒想到"},{"start":151.741,"end":159.3,"text":"去跟國防部爭取標案的時候說一套實際做的是另外一套實際做的是哪一套"},{"start":161.496,"end":186.113,"text":"如同剛剛部長所說的在租賃契約書裡面已經白紙黑字寫不可以使用暴露地區的產品但我接到的檢舉是在南洋地區的指揮部裡面所有用的逆變器都是中國製的產品那因為這個檢舉很嚴重所以我昨天特別跑去南洋指揮部那邊去現看"},{"start":187.154,"end":213.036,"text":"來非常感謝我們南洋指揮部的弟兄很辛苦昨天太陽很大陪我在那邊看結果看到的現在部長啊您看到的就是所謂的逆變器旁邊貼的貼紙旁邊貼的貼紙大剌剌的就寫的Made in China大剌剌的就寫的Made in China這個讓我們非常的困惑非常的狐疑是"},{"start":214.017,"end":229.309,"text":"當初這個東西在裝的時候契約書已經載明了不可以做這件事情他們還是無視於國防部相關的規定甚至是契約上面的要求做了這件事情而且毫不避諱的"},{"start":230.31,"end":248.193,"text":"就在產品上面的貼紙就寫了Made in China這件事情我昨天去南洋指揮部玩了以後我有跟現場主持會議的指揮官說麻煩這件事情請他昨天回去的時候要跟部裡邊報告部長有沒有收到這樣的訊息"},{"start":249.481,"end":275.932,"text":"跟委員報告有,我們有,就我現在得到的訊息就是說,這一個逆變企業或者變流企業,它是德國一個叫SMA的公司品牌,但是是在大陸組裝的。那麼現在確認它有,我約使用的這一個大概是44個。那我們會一約要求陳上要在一個月內將這些錄製品拆除,更換符合這個契約的這個規範的一個產品。"},{"start":278.833,"end":286.298,"text":"這就是我今天把這件事情在質詢的時候請部長注意因為對於後續的處理這件事情"},{"start":287.549,"end":308.488,"text":"這家廠商是惡劣至極啊明明就知道不可以這樣做他還是決定這樣做但我們如果今天國防部在主張權力的時候只是把這個置義萬為胡作非為的廠商只是叫他更換完部長你覺得對這個廠商會有任何嚇阻的效力嗎"},{"start":310.91,"end":330.591,"text":"我們會按照那個合約條款的這個內容那我到現在為止沒有清楚的看到合約條款的內容那我們一方面就他這個要改進那我們也會清查有沒有類案的這個情形有類似案件的這些情形我們都會來全面的清查"},{"start":331.581,"end":354.59,"text":"因為部長是非常優秀的法律人特別拜託部長回去看我們國防部的契約因為如果在我們國防部的契約裡面對於這一種無視國防部的政策無視契約條款根本置義萬為的廠商我們如果定的契約法律效果只是被抓到了以後"},{"start":355.71,"end":379.119,"text":"換回來就好了我必須要說不會有任何嚇阻的效果以後他就繼續這樣幹因為如同剛剛部長所點出來的如同剛剛部長所點出來的這家廠商他是不是被欺騙所以才去用中國的逆變器不是他從頭到尾就知道他用的是中國的逆變器而且用的範圍"},{"start":380.646,"end":398.527,"text":"我再跟部長報告一下用的範圍恐怕不是只有南洋指揮部因為到目前為止我所收集到的資訊包括了我們在高雄的海軍艦隊指揮部包括了國防大學包括了三軍總醫院松山分區"},{"start":399.828,"end":428.399,"text":"這家廠商非常厲害國防部非常多的隱屈全部都有他們的案子他們可以這樣置義妄為無視規定如果我們最後國防部所謂的依照契約辦理只是要求他換過來的話恐怕是沒有辦法真正的二組未來有類似不肖的廠商一樣化葫蘆反正我就先用被抓到了以後再換回來就好了"},{"start":429.139,"end":441.731,"text":"部長是不是可以承諾嚴肅的檢討目前契約的規範是不是只能夠要求他換還是應該要採取更嚴厲追溯法律責任的行動"},{"start":442.999,"end":466.417,"text":"我們會來檢視相關合約的這個整個內容有沒有類似有一些相關的這個就是說我們要和約定的相關的內容來處理那另外我們也會全面清查國軍所有的這些太陽光電的這個設置營區是不是有使用錄製品的設備部長最後一點提醒就好了因為這個東西是驗收通過的"},{"start":467.418,"end":494.471,"text":"今年二月驗收通過的我昨天在現場的時候其實我很困惑因為我一看到那個機繩旁邊的貼紙就寫Made in China我的困惑在於說人家就已經大剌剌的也不遮掩就是Made in China我們驗收怎麼會通過但請部長不要誤會我的意思我沒有意思要去追究我們蘭陽指揮部弟兄他們的責任因為我知道"},{"start":495.455,"end":510.752,"text":"他們很辛苦光電這些產品未必也是他們所熟悉的但是是不是在驗收的SOP上少了關鍵的一環譬如說要求那個廠商出具原產地的證明"},{"start":511.974,"end":538.735,"text":"沒有出具這個東西的話驗收不會通過因為我相信如果當初驗收的SOP有這個要求的話應該不會出現這麼離譜的狀況是不是可以請驗收的程序一併檢討未來不要讓這個不肖的廠商有上下棘手的空間我們會一併來檢討這個委員所指教的這樣子的一個就是說有這樣的要求我們會來一併納入檢討"},{"start":540.265,"end":542.609,"text":"委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員"}]}},{"id":"154222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1ae891ffba60ed4cba22d6087941f42bcee23585586e40b3a91973a31aecd7fbc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:59:02 - 10:06:59","影片長度":"00:07:57","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:59:02+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T10:06:59+08:00","duration":477,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（9時59分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長早安。這邊要給部長看一下，這個照片就是我剛剛講的，在2020年的時候，我跟賴品妤委員率先共同召開公聽會，然後啟動學輔法修法，當時的po文現在看起來差不多都已經是三、四年前的事情了，所以教育部的動作真的可以更快一點。","現在我們就直接來對話，關於這一次教育部版本及院版跟大家的期待，想請問部長，我們的第一個訴求剛剛有講到，就是覺得應該要優先任用輔導的專業主管，這邊是社工師全聯會的建議版本，我想請問部長，部長知不知道目前輔諮中心的主管是專輔人員的比例是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前有9個縣市，全國22個縣市裡面有9個縣市是由專輔人員來擔任輔諮中心的主任。"],["范委員雲：所以這樣算起來的比例是多少？二十二分之九，其實還是滿低的啦，當然我不知道為什麼這個數字跟我去索資來的不大一樣，也許有一些進展，我們事後再比對。重點是我拿到的數字只有27%，您剛剛講的好像又調整了，多了一點，可是這個部分我也跟教育部對話過，你們提到了人力不足的部分，然後還有專業人員不一定有行政長才，但是我想這個部分，因為他畢竟是要統籌這麼重要的單位，還是應該要由專業人力擔任主管，不知道部長覺得我們在這一次修法是不是就可以達到這件事？"],["鄭部長英耀：非常謝謝委員的關心，確實我們這一次的修法也是朝著這個方向在努力。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝，那我就期待到時候可以參考我的版本，讓我們能夠確實達到輔諮中心應由專業人力擔任的目標。","再來，關於輔導處室的部分，專業團體也主張，這是輔諮學會的修訂條文，他們覺得應採「宜由」，「宜由」跟「應由」已經不大一樣了，表示他們知道有時候是無法的，但是原則上優先由專業人員來任用，而且是不是能夠有配套，也就是說，他如果來做主任的話，應該還要補足員額，因為他事實上能夠做的輔導工作就會降低了嘛，部長對於這一條的看法呢？這一條我之前沒有跟你們溝通過，您覺得這一條是不是有可能也往這個方向來邁進？"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，有關輔導室主任由專業人員來擔任、專業老師來擔任，我想我們都是朝那一個方向努力……"],["范委員雲：好，太好了！"],["鄭部長英耀：但確實小學有一些規模比較小，他的主任的候用不一定有這個專業……"],["范委員雲：那個部分可能是例外……"],["鄭部長英耀：但是那個目標是我們努力的。"],["范委員雲：好，關於行政職如果由專業人員擔任的話，能不能夠補足員額的部分呢？要不然就變得工作量更大了，因為本來是他有他原本的工作。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這一個是分離的啦……"],["范委員雲：分離的？教育部可不可以去考慮一下，能不能夠補足員額？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是說輔導主任的編制是輔導主任，輔導老師是屬於輔導老師，這裡邊應該是不衝突的。"],["范委員雲：這個部分你們去瞭解一下，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：理論上應該要補足啦！"],["范委員雲：對，理論上要補足，我們就朝這個方向努力，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：如果遇到什麼困難，也希望能夠跟我辦公室溝通，好不好？希望往這個方向，謝謝部長，真的是非常的用心啦。","再來，剛剛大家都提到高中以下專輔人力的部分，我們知道大專的部分，肯定教育部已經率先達標了，我們就來講高中以下的部分。我對照了現行條文跟教育部112年報院的條文，有幾個部分大家還是有不同的意見，第一個，你們原來112年報院版本刪除了大校駐校人力，因為原本是有一定班數就要設的規定，我有問了一下原因，你們說這樣會有輔諮中心能不能統籌的問題，可是事實上，我們的條文第四條已經規定輔諮中心有統籌權啊！第二個就是地方的比例20比1沒有提升，專業團體用這樣來估算，如果是112年報院版的話，算起來還是1比4,400耶，現狀，就是你們的增訂版是1比4,500到1比5,000，就變得不進反退喔！新法如果是112年報院版的話，只有保下限，部長，這個部分如果只有保下限的話，那不就是不升反減嗎？沒有規劃提升，部長對於這個部分的回應是什麼？因為這個是您還沒來當部長的時候所提出來的，我們看的是上一次送院的版本，您當部長之後是不是有修改呢？您也是心理方面的專業，大家的期待更高，部長是不是可以改善一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這個我們來努力。"],["范委員雲：努力，好不好？好，我就要聽您說努力啦，因為我們對您的期待很高，就是不一定要跟上一屆一樣。","另外，我的版本要請你們參考的就是原本的55班降為40班，原本的20校降為15校，這個部分，我想因為時間有限，我就請部長納入參考，然後去努力，好嗎？","另外還有一個很重要的是專輔人員的待遇要提升，我聽到後也很驚訝，有關輔導年資的部分，他如果去當督導卸任回來後，居然年資不被採計，還被降職，這樣誰要去當督導？所以是不是能夠解決這個問題？就是輔導年資在卸任後不被採計的問題，這個表有點複雜，部長可以請學特司去研究一下，是不是應該透過職務加給的方式支持接任主任、督導之專輔人員？也就是說，沒有這種當督導然後年資不被採計的道理，回去之後還停在第三年，他其實已經去當別的了，部長可以瞭解一下嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想……"],["范委員雲：這個部分應該不是在法條中，但是你們會有相關的辦法，也去瞭解一下，我這邊一起反映出來。"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：最後一個也是曾跟教育部溝通過的，就是自我傷害要納主動輔導，不要放在「等其他事項」當中，因為大家都關心自殺、自傷的問題，是不是就應該明確保障，讓他能夠優先被面對、被照顧，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，我想有很多委員跟委員的看法是一致的，怎麼樣把自我傷害能夠納入到法條裡邊，我想我們也會認真來考量。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長的肯定，因為還沒有看到你們通過的院版，希望在這之前，據說明天才要通過嘛，還有時間，是不是能夠符合我們這一次的修法，您又是相關專業來擔任部長，過去沒做好的部分，要資源的話，我們委員雖然不宜增加預算，所以應該是你們的版本就要符合大家的期待，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝部長，我們一起加油，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員培瑜代）：謝謝范雲委員、謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝司長。","接下來有請柯志恩委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 18 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員許智傑等25\n人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生\n輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正\n草案」案；九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審查\n委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具\n「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分\n條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員郭昱晴等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員郭\n國文等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員郭國文等 19 人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條\n文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員萬\n美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條\n及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正\n草案」案；二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十\n五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十六、審查委員林\n月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案(僅進行詢答)","agenda_id":"1136601_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8240937500000001,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.57471875,"end":4.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.425968750000003,"end":61.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.586593750000006,"end":65.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.31596875000001,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.88846875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.04409375,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.06284375000001,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.09659375000001,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.85159375,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.66971875,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.81284375000001,"end":127.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.16721875,"end":127.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.42034375000001,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.92721875,"end":198.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.35659375,"end":184.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.27159375000002,"end":189.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.58284375000002,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.35909375,"end":197.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.76784375000003,"end":210.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.45346875,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.11971875,"end":218.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.20784375000002,"end":219.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.03034375000001,"end":220.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.16534375,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.02596875,"end":227.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.10096875000002,"end":227.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.45534375000003,"end":295.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.50596875000002,"end":227.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.59409375,"end":230.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.13659375000003,"end":319.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.52096875,"end":325.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.30909375000005,"end":331.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.14784375000005,"end":333.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.83534375000005,"end":335.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.34159375,"end":338.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.51846875,"end":403.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.10284375000003,"end":406.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.00971875000005,"end":406.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.53284375000004,"end":406.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.56659375000004,"end":433.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.61721875,"end":406.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.88721875000005,"end":407.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.01721875000004,"end":412.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.60034375000004,"end":445.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.07534375,"end":475.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.86846875000003,"end":473.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.45034375000006,"end":476.12534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.575,"end":4.202,"text":"一人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具"},{"start":10.732,"end":33.206,"text":"部長早安,這邊是要給部長看一下這個照片就是我剛剛講2020年我跟賴平委員我們率先共同召開這個公聽會然後啟動學服法修法那當時這個PO文都已經現在看起來都是已經差不多已經三、四年前的事情了那所以呢教育部的動作那真的可以更快一點"},{"start":33.766,"end":61.281,"text":"那我們就直接回來對話這一次的那個DRIVE的版本跟院版那跟大家的期待那想請問部長因為我們第一個訴求剛有講到就是覺得應該要優先任用輔導的專業主管那這邊是社工師群聯會的建議版本我想問部長目前輔資中心他的主管是專輔人員的比例部長知不知道比例是多少"},{"start":62.842,"end":76.477,"text":"目前有9個縣市,全國有22個縣市裡面有9個縣市是這一個由專輔人員來擔任這一個輔資中心的一個所以這樣算起來比例是多少?"},{"start":78.066,"end":79.347,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":108.424,"end":127.021,"text":"應該還是因為他畢竟是要統籌這麼重要的單位還是應該要由專業人力擔任主管那不知道部長覺得這是不是我們這一次就可以達到這件事我想非常謝謝委員的關心確實我們這一次的一個修法也是朝著這個方向在努力"},{"start":127.481,"end":129.563,"text":"二、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 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Kacaw委員：爬上爬下，還要上山，所以這部分也會有所不同，但是這個未來也是會面臨少子化等問題，所以這部分該怎麼樣去因應，都要多多去看。","我們來看台電、中油、台糖、台水各年齡分布的情形，誠如我剛剛講的，台電61到65歲的比例就相對比較低，所以就算勞基法改了，他一樣要退啊，因為這個工作比較吃重，要上山、要上上下下，但如果從24歲以下的比例來看，其實經濟部所屬的這4個公司都要加強，我們還是需要年輕人進來，所以這部分是要加強的地方。","就以台電公司你們的報告裡面提到的，目前面臨中高年齡結構老化的問題，經過你們改善、改進的精進方案之後，確實有比較好了，如果從台電的工作性質來看，相對於其他3個公司來講，基本上35歲到54歲的中階人力接近五成，當然經驗也很重要，所以這是各個公司都要去談的部分。","然後，我們再看未來10年員工退休的情形，你們也做了預估，誠如我剛剛講的，怎麼樣讓年輕人能夠進來，是一個很重要的途徑；當然還有另外一個途徑，這就是我的重點了，另外一個途徑就是原住民的進用，我們看經濟部所屬事業機構的新進職員，針對原住民報考的人數，105年有207人，錄取人數只有5位，這個人數比例很低，一直到112年新進職員甄試，原住民報考人數有287人，進用只有8人，這個比例真的是很低，要請台電、台水、台糖，包括各個事業機構，各方面都應該去……","我們就舉台電的例子，台電一直是我們原住民族很嚮往的一個國營事業，但是從原住民報考人數來看，105年共407人報考，錄取人數只有10個，這個比例真的很低；112年共383人報考，有成長一些些，因為這幾年我一直請我們各個國營事業看怎麼樣能夠讓我們原住民有機會，事實上很多地方都是在我們的偏鄉，像是花東或是原鄉，很多地方都需要，而且一般人也不會願意去，可能分發去了之後1年就離開了，甚至半年就離開了，那何不如讓我們在那邊長期擁有工作機會？台水公司也是一樣，原住民族進用人數的比例真的都是非常非常的低，台糖也是一樣，無論是職員、工員，約聘僱就更難了，因為約聘僱很多都是廠長進用。當然，考試的部分最起碼看怎麼樣能多進用我們原住民，請次長協助各個公司來進用原住民，可以嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：好，我再找我們四大國營事業公司來討論一下，看怎麼來多多進用我們原住民同胞。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["連次長錦漳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","陳亭妃","邱志偉","陳超明","賴瑞隆","牛煦庭","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","蔡易餘","葉元之","吳春城","鍾佳濱","謝衣鳯","林俊憲"],"page_start":177,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"    邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.45284375,"end":2.5115937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.167843750000003,"end":17.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.73284375,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.153468750000002,"end":27.300968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.204093750000002,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.520343750000002,"end":28.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.42721875,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.76034375,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.70909375,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.77221875,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.10096875,"end":39.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.36659375,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.78784375,"end":45.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.89721875,"end":49.845968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":51.752843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.461593750000006,"end":53.929718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.165968750000005,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.66784375,"end":57.321593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.760343750000004,"end":58.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.992218750000006,"end":60.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":61.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.721593750000004,"end":64.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.52284375,"end":65.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.07534375,"end":69.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.91034375000001,"end":71.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.66534375,"end":73.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.36534375000001,"end":77.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.11159375000001,"end":80.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.48659375000001,"end":85.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.11034375,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.52721875,"end":93.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.85596875,"end":99.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.11659375,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.12034375,"end":105.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.02284375,"end":106.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.22096875000001,"end":111.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.06409375000001,"end":113.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.38034375000001,"end":115.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.11409375000001,"end":118.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.88159375000001,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.88471875,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.17971875,"end":129.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.69846875000002,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.99784375000002,"end":132.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.83721875,"end":144.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.73096875000002,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.92471875,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.22409375,"end":141.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.30846875,"end":141.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.37596875,"end":141.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.59909375,"end":146.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.13034375,"end":149.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.21846875,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.88471875000002,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.05721875,"end":159.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.33096875,"end":160.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.78221875,"end":161.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.98034375,"end":162.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.36409375000002,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.57471875000002,"end":167.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.35909375,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.64159375,"end":170.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.85659375,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.10534375,"end":174.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.10909375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.07034375,"end":181.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.26846875,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.14159375,"end":184.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.40721875,"end":185.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.70659375000002,"end":186.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.57971875,"end":188.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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Engagement）叫做接戰或是交戰或是戰務令，我先把這個背景向您說。第一次國軍把ROE導入是劉和謙前參謀總長在民國67年把這個觀念導進來，當時有中美協防條約，沒有斷交，所以我們在協防司令部會提供很充足的文件，這麼多年以來，因為中間就失去在過去ROE上面的研析，過去很多同仁沿用一個字叫「SOP」，我想總長也瞭解，這是標準作業程序，是行政流程的責任擔當，但是從上到下一個版本，那ROE就有不同了，這張圖其實在您剛才回答前面委員時所講的，很多觀念你已經講進去了，這邊僅供參考。","我們在這邊問政，對國軍作建言的時候，我們通常是目的、方法、手段，適員、作法、建議。我們這邊提供一個建議，要培育國軍熟稔戰爭法、武裝衝突法跟國際人道等法務人員，藉由常態化戰場的訓練，官兵將交戰或接戰準則深植人心。我在這邊向各位報告，這個是2019年北約版的ROE，這本書已經提供了，現在在法律司，我也希望大家能夠深入研究，能夠導入到我們不同的層級裡面，這個是需要在課程中間上，而不是只有漢光演習才用，所以也建議國防大學或者國軍的法治教育要把這個納入課程。","這一次您提到要去中心化，我們在想定、反想定裡面都有授權，就是剛剛您講的基層，我們設定了目標、方法、手段以及建議，現在建議裡面事項就產生，就是當我們在做作戰區的時候，有一個想定的前提，第一個就是所有中華電信的中繼臺統統失效，要靠國軍的微波載臺以及目前我們的衛星，但是中興二號快到期，中興五號的功能還有待展示驗證。低軌衛星尤其是跟OneWeb簽的合約，我強烈建議要跟所謂的數發部跟NCC強調國軍需要的通訊頻段頻寬，這個要及早定義。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["陳委員永康：而不是等事件發生了再做討論，所以我們的目的是要強化戰場的指軌作業能力，這種條件下，光纖是不是仍然有效？國軍的機動通訊車數量足不足？另外就是原有的我們特殊裝備，比方講現在PRC-77，我們講的37C，剛才是因為講到後備，PRC-77已經太老了，37C是不是已經全部部署？這個我們內部要做檢討。","我們需要的就是提升網路的韌性，這邊要特別強調，即便未來低軌衛星可以納入國軍，但是因為整體分配不在我們這邊，所以限制因素乃至於部分未來使用的無人機也要靠這個的話，要及早規劃，納入想定。我們在兵推的時候，反想定裡面可以先把限制因素強化，就表示我有redundancy或者是哪裡不足的部分，我們即便現在在推40，41的時候，我們哪些部分要再強化？","無人機在俄烏戰爭中大家可以看到，烏克蘭跟俄國相互用無人機，而且大部分用大疆，可是因為幅員廣大，鄉鎮之間距離30公里、城鎮之間100公里，所以在這個連接的道路上，不是烏軍就是俄軍，看到就打，誤擊的機率很低，但是到了以哈戰爭中間，無人機的使用就比較低了，以色列用無人機完全是結合AI，而不是單兵用個人的眼睛去看、識別，所以未來的無人機對AI的導入，可是AI導入以後，又涉及到武裝衝突法、戰務令，這裡面就涉及到指揮官。我曾經跟中東的美軍指揮官、第5艦的司令開會提出，他們特別強調，人在鏈路中間，in the loop、on the loop還有完全授權out of loop，這個要及早定義。","我們來看一下北斗系統，北斗是雙向指管，現在所有解放軍的車輛、單兵，甚至到排級，都可以手機接受，但是我們還沒到這個位，未來的低軌衛星可能是一個重要的使用工具，但是中國大陸現在已經在搶軌道，它先向國際衛星聯盟登記了，未來短期內、10年內要160個軌道平面、1萬顆衛星。","在俄烏戰爭中間，美方Starlink協助它是4萬6,000個點，每一個點就是一個接收站，周圍的人的手機就要靠過去，1個月要800萬美金，所以我們要有它的好處就要有備援的鈔票，這個要規劃進去，這個圖請做參考。","中國大陸火箭軍也考慮到北斗會被干擾掉或是地面控制站被破壞，於是它利用八縱八橫的光纖，再配合無人機的中繼，這個就是將來我們可以做參考，local不管用浮升器、用無人機做中繼通訊是一個選項。反想定就是對方……這個是去年8月4號的投彈軌跡，再加上它的……很可能我們地面通訊基礎設施，到時候功能可能就不完整，甚至部分功能就沒有了，這個時候在我們的運用規劃，就是剛剛你講的權責下授、任務瞭解、授權、責任承擔，這個都是在ROE裡面會define清楚，但是我們還是需要由中央指揮的一個備援模式要能夠掌握。這張圖昨天展示過了，就是要模擬彈道，希望在解釋的時候讓國人、國軍有個瞭解。這張圖我特別來解釋利劍演習，也就是2024A的利劍，總長請看這上面是臺灣的防空識別區圖，在海峽中線以東，空軍有4個訓練空域，但是我們國防部做簡報的這個圖，就是講我們把中共拒止在24浬以外，並不是用它的圖，可是這個圖上面只有3個訓練空域，我跟你講這張圖是舊圖。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：舊的。"],["陳委員永康：GNC的老版本，我建議圖不只是電子化，還要更新版本，有些要從國外買過來，有些是用我們自己的圖，這個就是套上去，在同一個時間，我們要顯示的不只是中共演習或者我們漢光演習，在下面圖看周遭的海上動態、看民航機的動態，這個要全天限制，你看它的商船、民航機有沒有受到影響，做一個判斷的客觀參考。像這是民航圖，中線以東是4個訓練空域，套上這是今天早上中共的干擾，也就是共同圖像，雖然是數化圖，但是要經過GIS校正、重複套疊，對長官來講，可以有一個更客觀的判斷方法。這是5月18號從水面通過的，我特別講，要把金馬外島附近的水下深度圖做校正，因為大陸沿岸現在都是離岸風機，所以它的船必然要避開浮航，就是潛艦。事實上，臺灣西海岸未來八年以內會有1,000個離岸風機，這個離岸風機對兩棲登陸是最大的障礙，這個可以做參考，也要標註出來，所以這個海灘過去的紅色現在都不存在，即便是少數的紅色，它的規模也只能容納營級的登陸，所以你在演練、假設這個情境發生，部隊上來城鎮作戰如何做，這些都是反想定，每一個想定都很重要，不是會不會發生，而是想定跟想定中間的時間關聯性要把它做出來。","像這個圖是一個示意，臺灣北部這邊是所有的海堤工程、建設工程，根本已經沒有一個大規模的登機了，左邊這是外航的想定，這是外面的報告，要把這些圖套上衛星圖、套上我們現在的作戰圖，你的作戰想定就比較合理化，甚至在對面的導彈攻擊、模擬。最後，我們把整個想定過程排解出來，紅軍有紅軍的做法，藍軍有藍軍的做法，雖然紅軍沒有實兵，但演練的科目並不代表每個科目都要，而是互動關係找出來，於此同時要瞭解社會的堅韌性，也就是當時是不是已經比方從D-Day到D+3，民間完全是斷水斷電，國軍在想定過程中間要結合社會堅韌性，如果社會堅韌性斷水斷電，而只有國軍演練，這個就脫鉤了。以上提供總長做參考，總長有沒有什麼回應？"],["梅參謀總長家樹：報告委員，我們今年其實就是朝向不管您剛才提到的這些想定，然後第二個聯動性，還有所謂這些的連續，其實我們會有這些改變就是要讓國軍能夠突破、能夠進步，更結合實戰，您剛才所提供的這些資訊，我們都會很好的去做一個分析，納入我們非常重要的資訊參考，謝謝您提供這些資訊。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝總長，我最後再用30秒講這個CUES，現在國軍都在用，但是我建議一定要用英文版，不要把它翻成中文。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是。"],["陳委員永康：即便是在演習期間，我們在臺海周遭巡弋，也可能碰到友好國家的軍艦通過，還是要靠這個CUES，這是我在任內向美方爭取同意供應的，而且是非機密版，它是根據1972年的海上避碰規則以及UNCLOS、1982年聯合國海洋法公約第二十九條，這些東西我希望我們的艦隊官兵能夠充分使用。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：是，瞭解。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。"],["梅參謀總長家樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-29","speakers":["馬文君","賴士葆","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","黃國昌","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","林憶君","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢；二、審查\n本院委員馬文君等 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人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨\n團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.806593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.414093750000001,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.26534375,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.73284375,"end":22.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.622218750000002,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.60909375,"end":26.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.76096875,"end":26.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.18659375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.28721875,"end":55.229093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.90409375,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.62784375000001,"end":73.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.48784375000001,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.33534375,"end":90.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.63284375,"end":91.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.32034375,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.51784375000001,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.12784375,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.57471875000002,"end":152.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.74971875,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.39346875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.56034375000002,"end":188.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.46971875,"end":193.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.94159375,"end":198.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.10534375,"end":246.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.33409375000002,"end":250.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.94534375,"end":255.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.76284375,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.33221875000004,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.15034375,"end":265.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.67284375,"end":282.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.97409375,"end":285.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.06221875,"end":293.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.21284375000005,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.41846875000005,"end":303.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.83159375,"end":304.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.50221875,"end":314.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.05346875000004,"end":317.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.53409375,"end":318.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.22159375,"end":334.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.54409375,"end":336.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.02471875000003,"end":349.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.65534375000004,"end":368.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.47971875,"end":369.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.37409375000004,"end":377.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.44034375,"end":380.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.11909375000005,"end":386.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.06346875,"end":386.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.14346875,"end":388.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.08409375,"end":390.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.70409375,"end":393.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.41659375,"end":396.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.59346875,"end":404.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.29659375,"end":408.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.33846875,"end":408.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.96284375000005,"end":410.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.10596875000005,"end":425.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.25096875,"end":436.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.48596875000004,"end":437.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.80221875,"end":455.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.59659375,"end":460.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.18659375000004,"end":463.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.29596875000004,"end":466.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.39221875000004,"end":475.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.88909375000003,"end":484.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.77346875,"end":504.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.74534375,"end":514.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.43159375,"end":520.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.74284375,"end":524.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.19784375,"end":526.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","sta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the loop on the loop還有完全授權out of loop這個要及早定義"},{"start":351.684,"end":376.394,"text":"那我們來看一下這個北斗系統北斗是雙向指管他現在已經所有他的解放軍的車輛單兵甚至到排級都可以手機接受但是我們還沒到這個位未來的低軌衛星可能是一個重要的一個使用工具但是中國大陸現在已經在搶軌道他先向國際衛星聯盟登記了未來短期內10年內要160個軌道平面1萬顆衛星"},{"start":381.172,"end":401.545,"text":"那麼在俄烏戰爭中間,美方啊,這個Starlink協助它是46000個點那每一個點就是一個接收站,但周圍的人手機就要靠過去,一個月要800萬美金所以我們這個要有它的好處,就要有備援的鈔票,這個要規劃進去,這個圖請做參考"},{"start":406.483,"end":424.865,"text":"中國大陸這個火箭軍的他也考慮到他可能被北斗會被干擾掉或者地面控制站破壞於是他利用八重八橫的光纖再配合無人機的中繼那這個就是將來我們可以做參考local不管用伏身器用無人機做中繼通訊是一個選項"},{"start":428.271,"end":454.893,"text":"那反響定就是對方這個是去年8月4號的投擔軌跡再加上他的很可能我們地面通訊基礎設施可能到時候功能可能就不完整甚至部分功能就沒有了那這個時候在我們的運用規劃就剛剛你講的權責下售、任務了解、授權、責任承擔這個都是在ROE裡面會defend清楚了但是我們還是需要由中央指揮的一個備援模式要能夠掌握"},{"start":458.102,"end":476.795,"text":"這張圖昨天展示過了就是要模擬彈道那希望在解釋的時候對國人、貴國軍的有個瞭解這張圖我特別來解釋利劍演習就是這個2024利劍2024A的利劍總長請看這上面這個是台灣的防空識別區的圖這邊有四個在海峽中線以東空軍有四個訓練空域"},{"start":486.82,"end":504.09,"text":"但是我們國防部做了簡報的這個圖就是講我們把中共拒止在24里外並不是用他的圖可是這個圖上面只有三個訓練空隱我跟你講這張圖是舊圖GNC的這個老版本我建議圖不只是電子化"},{"start":504.87,"end":532.528,"text":"要更新版本有些是要從國外買過來有些是請我們自己的圖那這個就是套上去在這個同一個時間我們要顯示到就是說不只是中共演習或者我們漢光王演習在周遭下面圖看海上的動態看民航機的動態這個要全天限制你看他的商船民航機有沒有受到影響做你一個判斷的客觀參考像這個是民航圖"},{"start":533.905,"end":551.179,"text":"中縣以東市4個訓練空域,套上這是今天早上中共干擾的,就是說共同圖像,雖然是數畫的圖,但是要經過GIS校正,重複套疊,對長官來講可以有一個更客觀的判斷方法。"},{"start":552.47,"end":565.116,"text":"這次5月18號從水面通過我特別講要把金馬外島附近的水下的深度圖要做校正因為在大陸沿岸現在都是離岸風機"},{"start":566.59,"end":581.247,"text":"所以他的船必然要避開扶航就是潛艦那事實上臺灣的西海岸未來8年以內會有1000個離岸風機這個離岸風機是對兩溪登陸是最大的障礙這個可以做參考也要標註出來"},{"start":584.946,"end":610.655,"text":"所以這個海灘過去的紅色現在都不存在即便是少數的紅色它的規模也只能容納迎擊的登陸所以你在演練假設這個情境發生部隊上來城鎮作戰如何做這個都是反想定這個每一個想定都很重要不是會不會發生而是想定跟想定中間的時間的關聯性要把它做出來像這個圖是一個示意台灣北部"},{"start":613.073,"end":641.288,"text":"這裏是所有的海堤工程建設工程根本已經沒有一個大規模的登機了所以左邊的這個是外航的想定這是外面的報告要把這些圖套上衛星圖套上我們現在作案圖那你的作戰想定就比較合理化那甚至在對面這個導彈的攻擊模擬那最後就是說我們把一個整個的想定過程排解出來"},{"start":642.689,"end":671.134,"text":"紅軍有紅軍的做法藍軍難做雖然紅軍沒有實兵但是你演練的科目並不代表每個科目多要但是互動關係找出來在這個同時要了解社會的堅韌性就是當時是不是已經比方講從D隊到D加3完全民間是斷水斷電國軍在想定過程中間要結合社會堅韌性如果社會堅韌性斷水斷電而只有國軍演練這個就脫鉤了以上提供總長做參考"},{"start":672.294,"end":698.472,"text":"總長有沒有什麼回應?委員我們今年其實就是朝向的就是不管您剛才提到的這些的想定然後第二個聯動性還有所謂的這些的連續其實我們會有這些的改變其實就是讓國軍能夠突破能夠進步更結合實戰那您剛才所提供的這些資訊我們都會很好的去做一個分析納入我們非常重要的一個資訊的參考謝謝您提供的這些資訊"},{"start":700.458,"end":715.703,"text":"最後再問三十兩下,這個CUSE現在國民都在用,但是我建議一定要用英文,不要把它翻成中國語,即便是在演習期間,我們在台海遇到群議,也可能碰到友好國家和軍隊的通過,"},{"start":718.237,"end":737.645,"text":"在任內一方征服同意、共同負面,而且是非機密的。那麼他是根據1972年南韓共同當選,以及Conclause1982年,就是聯合國海洋法公約的第29條,這些東西我希望我們鑒定官方的負責。是,了解,是,是,謝偉。"}]}},{"id":"154219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1831395a2051cf22201867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a71a6ad925c3716645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"09:51:12 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我要先講一個臺中現在正在發生的事情去年5月我在當交通委員會召委的時候我有邀請相關交通部的單位去臺中市的五泉西路及臺中高鐵閘道中間有一個路段去考察"},{"start":37.781,"end":58.54,"text":"當時我們在地的立委張亮萬堅跟在地的議員何文海議員跟好幾位快20位的里長都在現場我們當時為什麼要來這裡辦會刊就是因為我們知道臺中高鐵旁邊有一個號稱亞洲最大的娛樂城即將凍土"},{"start":60.612,"end":78.815,"text":"那這個即將動手的前提之下是我們現況是五泉溪路的閘道704號閘道很塞很塞很塞臺中高鐵站又是號稱臺灣僅次於臺北站的第二大的一個高鐵站"},{"start":80.919,"end":103.553,"text":"人呃乘客很多然後用路人很多高鐵閘道呢本身其實四號銜接高鐵閘道也很塞很塞很塞所以我們才會你回到第一頁我們才會去會勘我們才會去會勘我現在在跟你講當地現在背景我們去會勘考察說那要怎麼辦那現在呢我們確定"},{"start":105.663,"end":129.733,"text":"全台甚至亞洲最大的娛樂購物城要落腳台中那我們當然歡迎因為他會帶來很多的觀光客很多的一個產值經濟來成就大台中但是呢我們很擔心的是什麼配套他這個禮拜天6月30號要動工了他要動工了"},{"start":130.293,"end":154.003,"text":"但是配套平面道路現在就我個人的理解甚至我看到臺中市政府的一個核准的一個規劃我覺得我預期他完工之後絕對會是交通上的一個災難的開始甚至會讓我們的高鐵站的對外連外的運輸交通"},{"start":155.203,"end":174.809,"text":"還有臺鐵的運輸交通在平面道路上絕對都會打劫所以我就希望我們交通部可不可以中央在什麼樣的狀況之下跟地方合作來解決周邊的交通問題你看我收集了幾個媒體新聞報導"},{"start":178.066,"end":186.988,"text":"只要是連假收假我們臺中的高鐵站就是湧入人潮中秋返鄉的連假也是塞車塞到晚上10點"},{"start":188.703,"end":217.067,"text":"自由坐上次去年的驚人的長榮牌牌牌牌到站外去所以讓人家很傻眼那春節出遊更是塞塞塞塞塞那所以次長是不是我們中央可以主動的來盤點周遭的快速道路高速公路山鐵的周邊的道路系統我們全力來協助看要找出一個解方可不可以"},{"start":220.29,"end":232.642,"text":"上次您還有幾位委員會看以後這個案子我們部長很重視有指示陳次長要來了解那我初步的看法這個地區它周邊都是快速道路網"},{"start":233.323,"end":250.154,"text":"那您提到的如果一個大型購物商場進去會吸引很多人流物流基本上他應該18萬然後呢是我們鐵道局招商的他應該當初有提出交通維持計畫跟衝擊評估是啊但是我有我想"},{"start":252.395,"end":276.036,"text":"市長你可以跟我們陳志豪兩個先把這個議題好好的把他的細節現在所有的包括他的環評、交評等等拿出來好好的來看他的交評就我手上拿到的資料都是在這個他的這個購物娛樂城的一個周邊的一個平面道路的一個"},{"start":277.233,"end":277.393,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":289.94,"end":289.98,"text":"．何欣純"},{"start":307.913,"end":313.576,"text":"主要公路去疏散而且你可以想像他的娛樂城是鐵道局招商他的娛樂城放在是高鐵站"},{"start":333.026,"end":360.024,"text":"這裡高鐵特區他吃的就是什麼交通的一個最優越的一個位置那他要吸引的一定是國外甚至的北來跟南來的整個大台中地區甚至大台中地區的一個觀光客、旅客還有來這裡遊玩、購買、shopping的人潮甚至大多數的人也會選擇是用台鐵鐵路選擇高鐵"},{"start":362.986,"end":363.187,"text":"這個案子"},{"start":388.482,"end":407.747,"text":"您事後可不可以找個時間來我辦公室我們好好地來商量這一件事好不好我很擔心喔我想您提的擔心是有道理因為基本上周邊除非他都是利用高鐵跟台鐵來進出周邊然後用走路或接駁車或者會有一大堆車流需要處理"},{"start":408.727,"end":415.89,"text":"臺中交通業局長學交通專業次長跟我會一起來瞭解這個案子有幾個方向一個是盡量利用軌道運輸進出第二個利用接駁車進出第三個這個區域要提出他的輸運計畫"},{"start":436.817,"end":438.898,"text":"市長,現在第一期叫做購物城,第二期是百貨跟飯店"},{"start":461.158,"end":462.679,"text":"我們先來瞭解他的吸引量多大然後跟葉局長這邊再拜託"},{"start":477.33,"end":497.101,"text":"因為確實都會影響到那第二件事雖然我的時間到我就簡單講一下我們今天講的這個港口要智慧化港口要智慧化我們很多都是在於系統性的在園區內的一個讓它更省力更有效率但是我提醒一個以人為本的安全防護更需要智慧化"},{"start":498.341,"end":513.739,"text":"這個就是勞工的職場安全勞工的職場安全為什麼在這個園區裡面特別需要我們台中港裡面有風電那也有其他的一個產業那很多是大型機具那勞工在這裡面呢"},{"start":514.58,"end":539.87,"text":"公安問題我們必須要注意必須要防範那怎麼防範現在是有一些智慧化的一個科技技術是可以協助的我們希望包括個人防護具的一個監控這個做得到的預警還有呢所謂的勞工要進出的一些閘門是不是可以智慧化安全閘門或者是不安全的開口的檢測自動檢測這個都是"},{"start":543.171,"end":570.16,"text":"我們要強調的港口要智慧化不是只有園區或者是它的系統的智慧化而是要以人為本職安很重要次長你支持嗎是是我非常認同一個是進出港的人車物的管理第二個是危險物品的處理放在哪裡到底是什麼東西第三個是哪些單位在進行大型工程或是危險工程那人員積聚需要管理"},{"start":571.02,"end":596.765,"text":"第4個是資安或者是保安也是問題這塊我想港公司會納在這個計畫裡面來但裡面有很多entities有很多單元公司他們可能我們要跟他們合作來處理我希望這個智慧化的港口真的不是只有你剛剛你報告的那幾面像我覺得還是人最重要好不好安全最重要謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1dd3d3dbef777a57e01867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a33e58774f8ec6c625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"09:41:36 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Hi這個品牌，航港局的試辦，試辦就是現在國外的郵輪到國內的跳島旅遊，可以給予相當的、適當的部分補助嘛！"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["許委員智傑：這個補助，我看你們的計畫是到明年底就結束了。"],["葉局長協隆：是，跟委員報告，這個部分我們會視實施的狀況，再來持續爭取預算。"],["許委員智傑：我想你們規劃時間是到明年底嘛！我想明年中我們會再記得、會要求，也希望航港局先做一下統計，我們經過這樣的措施，到底實質上的幫助有多少的成效？能夠做一個估計，我們也能夠判斷這樣是不是一個真的國外也喜歡來的行程嘛！如果這個成效報告不錯，是不是就可以考慮延長，我想這個部分希望航港局不要只做到明年底啦！"],["葉局長協隆：瞭解。"],["許委員智傑：所以我說第一個，先感謝；第二個，不要只做到明年底，應該可以再繼續思考一下，後續的試辦延長。"],["葉局長協隆：我們會觀察執行的成效，也會努力跟郵輪業者推廣。特別跟委員報告，我們今年在1月份、2月初，已經舉辦了一個亞洲跳島郵輪的推介會，有七大國際郵輪航商來參與，有四個國家，包括日本、韓國、菲律賓都跟我們共同參與，這些郵輪商對於停靠我們的離島也有相當的興趣，其中荷美郵輪對於金門，另外有一家叫珊瑚郵輪對於我們的蘭嶼都有表達具體的意願。"],["許委員智傑：所以現在有具體的行程出來了嗎？"],["葉局長協隆：現在就是還對於一些海事的細節，比如它停靠金門，到底要停泊在哪個點，那個我們還在……"],["許委員智傑：就是還在研究這些細節啦！"],["葉局長協隆：就是這些細節……"],["許委員智傑：好，大方向已經有雛形、有成果了？"],["葉局長協隆：對，因為他們有表達具體的意願。"],["許委員智傑：ok，希望我們這個呼籲讓航港局繼續的重視……"],["葉局長協隆：謝謝委員，我們會。"],["許委員智傑：這部分有什麼進度，也希望隨時跟我的辦公室保持聯繫……"],["葉局長協隆：好的，隨時跟委員報告。"],["許委員智傑：讓我們瞭解一下，進度到哪裡？"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以剛剛提到第一點，就是「TAIWAN Hi」國外的郵輪補助是不是繼續延長，可以做一下成效跟思考。"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["許委員智傑：第二個就是海上嘉年華，海上嘉年華可以考慮一下，就是我們高雄其實曾經辦過海上燈會，但是那是民間辦的，一次就可以找四、五千人在海上，整個場面其實是蠻壯觀的，所以，如果港務公司可以繼續推動這個概念的話，你們可以試辦看看。也就是我希望高雄的海上觀光可以變成臺灣的第一名，我想高雄港有這個條件，所以這個部分也請航港局先做一下思考。"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["許委員智傑：我現在的想法是這樣，因為港務公司也有很多事，那航港局的試辦其實本來就不是，經營不是航港局的工作，但是其實航港局表現不錯，就是有心來試辦，這算是他們多做的，當然有心多做，對我們的觀光有幫助，我們要感謝，所以也希望這部分可以持續不斷，交通部也支持，這個試辦的部分可以讓航港局走在前面。"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["許委員智傑：再來就是澎湖輪，談到澎湖輪其實也要謝謝航港局，當時是我跟楊曜委員的要求……"],["葉局長協隆：謝謝委員的指導。"],["許委員智傑：澎湖輪可以順利完成，這個也是喜事一樁，我講的，不然現在還在做，還沒有好。但是其實你看疫情期間的探索夢號，剛剛港務公司李董事長有提到探索夢號，現在已經沒了嘛，對不對？"],["葉局長協隆：現在叫「名勝世界壹號」，它……"],["許委員智傑：名勝世界壹號？有跑臺澎金馬嗎？"],["葉局長協隆：現在有幾個航次是停泊基隆跟高雄。"],["許委員智傑：臺澎金馬，我覺得這個航程的規劃……"],["李董事長賢義：基隆的航次比較多，高雄大概有五個航次，高雄到澎湖。"],["許委員智傑：是高雄到澎湖，然後咧？"],["李董事長賢義：就是下半年，大概8月多的時候，那個就是名勝世界……"],["許委員智傑：就是高雄到澎湖。"],["李董事長賢義：目前基隆的話，名勝世界也有在談……"],["許委員智傑：我是這樣建議，請港務公司一起，就是臺澎金馬都可以走一趟，這個感覺不錯，探索夢號當時是因為疫情的期間不能出國，所以創造出這樣一個航程（旅程）出來，事實上這個旅程我們可以延續。我們的澎湖輪跟新臺馬輪，基本上都被定義為交通船，如果有機會也可以增加觀光的概念，我們高雄、澎湖、金門、馬祖如果合組一個行程出來，我相信會有市場。臺灣很多人沒去過金門，沒去過馬祖，如果一次讓他臺、澎、金、馬四個島一起跳島旅遊，我覺得會有吸引力，就從我們高雄出發，所以這部分希望港務公司跟航港局是不是可以做這方面的思考，讓我們的澎湖輪跟新臺馬輪可以充分使用。"],["葉局長協隆：好，謝謝委員。是，跟委員報告，其實澎湖輪的部分，也在我們次長的指導下，我們今年7月到9月已經要舉辦海上嘉年華的三個示範的遊程……"],["許委員智傑：你說哪個？臺澎金馬？"],["葉局長協隆：澎湖輪，一樣是……"],["許委員智傑：臺澎，還有哪裡？"],["葉局長協隆：沒有，一樣是高雄到馬公，但是我們……"],["許委員智傑：高雄到馬公？"],["葉局長協隆：我們結合澎湖的三個主題活動，包括吉貝的花火節，追風音樂節，還有101K自行車跳島嘉年華活動，分別在7月底、8月底跟9月下旬，總共有三個示範的遊程；另外，海上、船上也有相當豐富的八項相關的活動。這部分我們在前一陣子已經有發布推出，跟旅行社這邊來合作，我們希望這個也當作一個起點，後續會依照委員剛剛提醒的方向，除了澎湖之外，其他的島嶼，包括金門跟馬祖是不是也能夠利用我們的這個渡輪交通船來進行更多的觀光遊程……"],["許委員智傑：對，所以我想請你們規劃一下，你們這一次有關臺澎這條航線的活動也讓我知道一下，包括我們昆澤委員，包括楊曜委員，我們高雄、澎湖一起進步，所以這部分我們可以連在一起去做思考。"],["葉局長協隆：是。好。"],["許委員智傑：另外，我講的臺澎金馬一起跳島旅遊，我覺得國內這部分的遊程如果有先做起來，其實很多國外的旅客來也可以走我們這個路線，臺灣人其實很多人沒有去過金門跟馬祖，如果能夠一起來，我覺得吸引力蠻大的，所以希望航港局跟港務公司做一下思考。後面高雄該進步的，我知道剛剛俊憲提到的，大家都在搶，就連基隆跟高雄算南、北兩大港，那高雄現在跟基隆的航次、班次差太多了，所以我覺得你若增加這個航班（旅程）有可能會突飛猛進，好不好？"],["葉局長協隆：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["許委員智傑：希望兩個單位一起再思考。"],["葉局長協隆：好，我們會跟港務公司儘量努力來研議。"],["許委員智傑：好。感謝。"],["葉局長協隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許委員發言完畢。現在請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-17","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","蔡其昌","林俊憲","許智傑","何欣純","陳素月","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳亭妃","黃仁","陳冠廷","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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那各位很棒 這個部分我們會試這個實施的狀況那再來持續的爭取預算我想 對就是說你們明年底規劃時間嘛那我想明年中我們會再記得會要求那也希望說香港局先做一下統計啦就算我們經過這樣子一個措施那到底實質上的幫助有多少的成效"},{"start":122.385,"end":136.06,"text":"那能夠做一個估計那我們也能夠判斷說這樣子是不是一個真的是國外也喜歡來的一個行程嘛如果有這個成效報告不錯的話那是不是就可以考慮延長"},{"start":137.762,"end":137.882,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":157.225,"end":157.345,"text":"．許智傑"},{"start":172.612,"end":189.954,"text":"日本、韓國、菲律賓都跟我們共同參與那這些遊輪商對於停靠我們的離島也有相當的興趣其中河美遊輪對於金門那另外一家叫珊瑚遊輪對於我們的蘭嶼都有表達具體的意願所以現在有具體的現場出來的嗎"},{"start":191.775,"end":208.546,"text":"現在就是還對於這個一些海事的比如說他停靠金門到底要停泊在哪個點那個我們還在就是還在研究這些細節這些細節直接大方向已經有雛形有進步了對對因為他們有表達具體的意願好那這個希望說"},{"start":210.027,"end":224.295,"text":"我們這個呼籲那香港其實繼續的重視啦那這個有什麼進度也希望隨時跟我辦公室保持聯繫讓我了解一下就是這個進度到哪裡所以剛提到的第一點就是台灣害這個"},{"start":226.296,"end":247.934,"text":"國外的優惹補助是不是繼續延長﹖可以做一下成效跟思考。第二個就是海上嘉連華。海上嘉連華其實在第一章﹖可以考慮一下就是說我們高雄其實曾經辦過海上燈會﹖但是那是民間辦的﹖一次就可以找四五千人在海上。"},{"start":249.008,"end":265.76,"text":"我那個其實是蠻壯觀的所以就是說如果港澳公司可以繼續推動這個概念的話你們可以試辦看看啦那也就是說整個我希望說高雄的海上的觀光可以變成台灣的第一名嘛"},{"start":266.54,"end":292.043,"text":"我想這個條件 高雄港有這個條件所以這個部分也請港澳公司那個港港局先做一下思考我現在的想法是這樣因為港澳公司很多事啦那港港局這個事辦其實本來就不是經營不是港港局的工作但是其實港港局表現不錯就是有心來事辦也算是這算是記者啦但是有心記者"},{"start":293.084,"end":304.889,"text":"對我們的觀光有幫助,我們要感謝所以也希望說這個可以持續不斷交通部也支持這個事辦的部分可以讓香港局走在前面那再來就是說"},{"start":306.257,"end":331.816,"text":"彭博倫其實也謝謝香港局當時我跟楊耀委員的要求謝謝委員的指導那就是彭博倫可以順利完成這個也是喜事一創我講的 如果沒有現在還在做還不好但是其實你看那個疫情期間那個探索夢剛那個李董事長有提到探索夢現在已經沒了對不對"},{"start":333.679,"end":339.411,"text":"現在叫民生世界一號現在有幾個行次是基隆跟高雄"},{"start":354.49,"end":373.376,"text":"高雄到澎湖下半年大概八月多的時候那個就是民生世界那目前基隆的話民生世界是也有展開我是這樣建議就是港澳公司一起就是說台澎金馬都可以走一趟就感覺不錯"},{"start":375.582,"end":399.055,"text":"所以我說這個探索夢好是當時因為疫情的期間不能出國所以創作出這樣子一個航程出來一個旅程出來事實上這個旅程我們可以延續所以澎湖輪跟我們的澎湖輪跟新台馬輪基本上它都定義為交通船那如果有機會它也可以增加觀光的概念"},{"start":400.523,"end":418.376,"text":"那我們高雄澎湖金門馬祖這個如果一個行程出來我相信會有市場台灣人很多人沒去過金門沒去過馬祖那如果一次讓他台澎金馬四個島一起跳"},{"start":419.875,"end":434.996,"text":"我覺得會有吸引力在我們高雄出發所以這個部分希望說港澳公司跟港港局是不是可以做一下這樣子的思考讓我們台澎輪那個澎湖輪跟新台馬輪可以充分使用"},{"start":435.336,"end":451.621,"text":"是 跟委員報告就是彭呼倫的部分也在我們次長的指導下我們今年7月到9月已經要舉辦這個海上嘉年華的三個示範的遊程你說哪個 台澎金馬彭呼倫一樣是 台澎還有哪裡沒有 一樣是高雄到馬宮高雄到馬宮"},{"start":453.502,"end":477.088,"text":"我們結合澎湖的三個主題的活動．包括吉貝的花火節、追風音樂節．還有101K的自行車跳島交通活動．總共七月底、八月底跟九月下旬．總共有三個示範的郵程．另外海上的船上的也有相當豐富的相關的八項的活動．"},{"start":477.708,"end":502.223,"text":"所以這個部分我們在前一陣子已經有發布推出那跟旅行社這邊來合作那我們希望這個當作一個起點那後續會照委員剛剛提醒的方向除了澎湖之外其他的島嶼我們金門跟馬祖是不是也能夠利用我們的這個渡輪交通船來進行更多的對所以我想你規劃一下啦就是"},{"start":503.844,"end":528.974,"text":"你們先這一條台澎的這一條這一次的活動也讓我知道一下包括我們昆州委員包括楊耀委員我們高雄澎湖一起進步所以這個我們可以連在一起去做思考那另外我講的台澎金馬一起我覺得國內的如果有先這個其實很多國外的旅客來也可以走我們的這個路線那台灣人其實"},{"start":530.074,"end":550.603,"text":"很多人沒去過金門跟馬祖啦你如果一起來我覺得吸引力蠻大的所以希望說香港局跟港務公司做一下思考那後面的高雄的該進步的我知道剛剛軍縣提到的大家都在唱啦阿東人、基隆跟高雄算南北兩大港嘛那高雄現在跟基隆的"},{"start":551.323,"end":551.964,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"154217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd110f2358fe8bc403d01867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a6ec955fd4b0c23b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"09:32:30 - 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謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部林國賢次長請您次長委員長次長早 次長早我記得交通部尤其是我們安防局要推所謂的海洋觀光其中我現在發現"},{"start":29.71,"end":57.265,"text":"那個疫情之後那個觀光的緊急應該要恢復但是國際郵輪目前看起來臺灣大概有七大國際商港只有安平跟台中目前完全沒有郵輪來停靠那這樣的郵輪經濟為什麼在安平連一艘都沒有那交通部這裡是不是可以給我們地方什麼樣的一個資源"},{"start":61.777,"end":73.403,"text":"各港有它的條件跟特性,那您提到安平的部分,其實我想您大概也了解目前雅果、遊艇跟周邊的地區有在發展,但是確實還要再強化。"},{"start":78.086,"end":93.491,"text":"安平港其實是可以直接停靠大型郵輪的那不必小船接駁那以前曾經有停靠過那你現在疫情後呢國際郵輪來台灣已經回復到疫情以前的五成"},{"start":94.071,"end":114.966,"text":"今年預計可以回復到疫情之前的期程那港澳公司在疫情期間也有一些投資來陸續增加改善各港口的軟硬體設備那對安平的話是不是請那個局長講一下我請港澳公司講一下"},{"start":120.734,"end":146.984,"text":"那個在疫情前的話我們在我們有統計大概108年1月的時候有一個太平洋的那個威納斯兩艘次當時是641那另外探索夢浩那個疫情期間有跳島在109年有我講的是現在現在就沒有了現在就沒有嘛現在是對不對2024年你看基隆當然基隆是台灣最大的國際郵輪港口啦聽說近200個航次"},{"start":150.165,"end":150.365,"text":"新的我們還在繼續爭取"},{"start":172.444,"end":191.781,"text":"譬如說你要增加郵輪來停靠的誘因是不是可以譬如說減免碼頭的停泊費或是你推動境外郵輪來台灣的獎補助方案看怎麼吸引郵輪的那個航商陸續將台灣來納入他的航程規劃裡面"},{"start":201.188,"end":221.841,"text":"這兩年的話我們是有那個就是定泊會、免費啦有郵輪有載旅客有沒有辦法你覺得有沒有辦法你看這個數字其實也很低啦你看就基隆、高雄還有以外啊其他台灣的五大國際上花蓮、澎湖、蘇澳、安平、台中也幾乎靠接近零啦"},{"start":222.509,"end":241.698,"text":"我們大概4月的時候也去邁阿密去爭取,還有就是5月多的時候也要到日本去,就是來高雄以後或是...所以你應該台灣是一個海洋國家,四面黃海,那麼漂亮的一個島嶼,沒有人要來停,這是你要去發展的,不是這樣嗎?"},{"start":244.246,"end":244.406,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":259.861,"end":260.362,"text":"他為什麼國際郵輪停靠台灣沒有意願?"},{"start":284.346,"end":299.995,"text":"您剛提的一個是增加靠港的誘因第二個降低它的成本第三個要讓那邊的能見度讓各單位在規劃遊程的時候能夠知道譬如說台南安平或是台中有什麼特點那能夠讓他納入他的航程"},{"start":300.695,"end":326.453,"text":"我們希望可以看到成績啦好不好尤其疫情之後啦現在遊輪的旅遊又上來了也是很夯啦那台灣完全台灣一個所謂自稱海洋國家是完全沒有這樣的一個政府也沒看到這樣的一個推動的成績能夠拿出來你看這個數字實在也很難看好不好另外喔那交通部也要所謂的發展海洋觀光其中有一項叫做遊艇"},{"start":329.787,"end":354.576,"text":"我們講的是大型郵輪以外還有郵艇臺灣其實私人的郵艇增加速度非常快剛剛港公司有提到臺南有個郵艇碼頭亞國郵艇碼頭臺灣的私人郵艇這幾年都成長了10倍現在我查一下資料到去年私人郵艇登記的都有1166艘"},{"start":357.987,"end":379.176,"text":"相對的10年前大概只有100艘現在已經破千了1100多了但是非自用的遊艇在交通部的規劃裡面也說要來發展這種遊艇的環島航線但你這個法令綁得很死現在非自用的遊艇只有278艘你看這個數字差很多了 對不對這種小的遊艇應該是國人玩的"},{"start":386.138,"end":405.522,"text":"大型國際遊艇可能是把國際遊客帶過來那台灣人如果我們國人自己要玩遊艇除了私人遊艇以外你看私人遊艇有1100多但是非自用的就是一般我們可以使用的攬客的遊艇只有278艘這數字比例差太多了吧就這樣看的話你這個遊艇什麼新進階航口號你可不可以做不開來"},{"start":414.576,"end":414.864,"text":"您要回答嗎?"},{"start":420.02,"end":444.909,"text":"謝謝委員提醒那我想非自用遊艇的確是促進我們遊艇經濟跟這個發展的一個重點那近期我們也這個檢討了這個傳播法裡面針對非自用遊艇的經營的這個相關的規定並不是那麼明確也造成了這個業者營運上的一些限制不是不明確是很明確很嚴格很落伍"},{"start":445.989,"end":469.154,"text":"譬如說那個遊客要整船出去整船回來你不可以A點去再B點下不可以 對不對我從台南到高雄網我不可以離開我一定要再回來台南然後假設你去澎湖買東西你不可以拿上船 對不對不能載物購物也不可以帶回來"},{"start":473.51,"end":490.803,"text":"已經研擬了傳播法的修正草案那就是要來促進這個多元彈性的經營形態那把相關的這個不必要的限制都把他在這邊給大家看一下台灣說是海洋國家你看我們相關法令多落後"},{"start":492.835,"end":493.236,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":510.756,"end":510.917,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"154216","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1532d472f6984e38501867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a796e9676d7a8fdab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"09:21:45 - 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added就是它土地使用的增值帶動人流產生對國營公司甚至對周邊的效益所以我想這一點李董事長他們也是朝這方向做那可能有些地方"},{"start":492.531,"end":509.798,"text":"因為時間有限,是不是說市長可不可以指示一下,跟部長討論一下,前港澳公司來研議,至少我講十幾年了,你也研議一下,看我可不可行或不可行,不然我在這裡講十幾年,當然八年來我當副院長沒有空在這裡,沒有辦法在這裡質詢你。"},{"start":511.398,"end":532.01,"text":"但是我還是在建議嘛當副院長我還是在談這個事情沒問題這個方向是對的然後港公司也要這樣轉型過去是一個事業部門或者成立一個分公司我都沒意見就是我的意思說希望這樣來做不然你看那個總經理他還要負責什麼我叫他說台中港沒有一艘郵輪進來他現在還在"},{"start":534.051,"end":539.373,"text":"總經理的業務量也太多了吧?太認真太多了吧?總經理要找專業人來做我是說那個部門啦你下面他要有專業的人去幫他分擔這個工作總不能什麼事情我都找總經理去做嘛"},{"start":553.957,"end":577.727,"text":"最後一點我提示一下時間已經到了就是我們在興建碼頭的同時港不斷的在興建事實上對漁民的這個就業權生存權也面臨很大的挑戰漁場越來越小嘛所以我過去在半年前我就要求交通部從王部長到現在的李部長我請他們趕快去研議到底對於台中港這個不斷的擴張裡面對過去漁民"},{"start":582.269,"end":606.89,"text":"這個漁場變小沒有補償到的部分要趕快研議因為我們這裡面有中油的有台電的有豐電的他不是純粹過去只談交通部港的興建不是他現在是很多他都有相關的這個回饋的辦法所以是不是交通部要趕快統一研議一下我希望你們三個月之內趕快因為我已經跟新的李部長他上任第一天我就跟他講了"},{"start":607.631,"end":621.172,"text":"所以你們要趕快把這個報告要趕快給我到底要怎麼你們有什麼想法要怎麼來做謝謝委員這應該做對 漁民的權益一定要把它保障一下因為那邊的風電廠也對這個地體對我知道所以你們一併嘛因為這個補償"},{"start":622.952,"end":633.095,"text":"中有台電同時在興建所以漁民的權利也要顧啦就是一方面我們希望經濟的發展但是對於傳統漁民在那個地方生存的範圍變小了這個我們本來就應該適度的可以補償好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd11286f6dc04247b2801867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a4b0eb0c020c95f405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:12:26 - 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09:58:51","影片長度":"00:09:44","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:49:07+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:58:51+08:00","duration":584,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":162,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時49分）謝謝召委，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["萬委員美玲：司長也一起陪同好了，可以救駕一下。","部長早。剛才本席在提案說明的時候其實有說到一個數字，不知道部長有沒有特別去聽一下，那就是非常重要的，我們現在112學年高中以下學校3,867所，55班的現在只有占8%，也就是說，有92%的學校現在不符合我們可以去設置專任的輔導人力，即便按照本席這一次所提第十一條修正條文把它降到30班，也還有七成多，還有七成一也沒有辦法達到剛才我們提到的，每一校都可以去設置專輔人力。","部長，剛剛本席聽您報告的時候有聽到您講說，這一次我們的院版在明天會出來嘛，對不對？相信這也是部裡送上去的，剛剛你報告時有提到，對於這一次的修法，教育部的立場是用總學生數為基礎來做一個修訂，能不能說明一下怎麼個總學生數為基礎的修訂法？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前就回應委員跟專業團體所關心的，我們也找出了一個相對適合的模式，大概就是各縣市裡面有20校以上的，我們會再額外增加一位專任的輔導老師，然後另外……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，不好意思，我打斷一下，這個可能不是我的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：另外就是各縣市裡面，我們也算了一下，大概4,500位到5,000位學生，我們也會增加這個專業輔導……"],["萬委員美玲：專輔人力？"],["鄭部長英耀：專輔人力，這都是留在地方……"],["萬委員美玲：所以部長的意思是說，現在會用4,500到5,000人的門檻去增加一個專輔的人力，而不是以班為單位，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們原來也有班，因為以小學來講，原來的規劃就是24班，但是現在我們在努力再往下……"],["萬委員美玲：那是地方縣市政府的諮輔中心、諮商中心啦。"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，那是學校，目前是24班，國中是15班。"],["萬委員美玲：OK，好，用班別。我想這樣子，因為我們還沒有看到院版，你要用人數的部分，我們在審查的時候可以來討論，但是我覺得要以現在你看到的，我們55班的狀況只有8%可以適用，即便像我的版本調到30班，肯定你們覺得30班很好啊，如果能夠調到10班更好啊，各校都有更好啊，可是大家都在跟我們講經費的問題嘛。我在這邊要特別提一個，我覺得教育資源是有限的，但是我們對於學生的輔導，對於學生專輔人力增加的這件事情上面，我們是要全力以赴喔，我覺得如果以經費去談這件事情，恐怕會比較受限一點，關於細節的部分，我們到時候再來審查。","這邊我提幾個部分跟部長來討論一下，今天我們在講專輔人力、專輔人力，為什麼專輔人力那麼重要？剛剛也提到三級輔導，三級輔導是發展、介入跟處遇，在發展、介入的時候，學校有學校的導師或者是輔導可以來做；到了處遇的時候，我們就非常需要專輔人力。我們要講，學校是一個教育單位，我們應該在教育單位裡面就要把這些預防工作做好，要把預防做好就是輔導人力要增加，這一點的邏輯是非常清楚的。部長，最重要的是本席接下來要講的，當我們在學校部分把輔導人力增加了，看似現在要增加一些經費，你覺得這個經費有負擔，可是您知道嗎？如果我們把學生的現場輔導做好，未來對我們的衛福也好，醫療也好，社政也好，或者是對我們的警政也好，省了太大一筆錢，對國家未來的財政省了非常多，就在我們教育現場能夠把它做好。而我們都知道，現在的教育現場，孩子們也許有不同的家庭背景，有些人還在網路上面有大量的接觸，所以他們的行為思想的樣態比我們以前多太多了，所以我覺得專輔人力是非常有必要來增加的。","再來，部長，學生輔導除了我們剛剛在講的，大家很痛心的是自殺數、自傷數這麼高，孩子到底出了什麼問題？當然，我相信對於學生的輔導，學校的專輔人力、學校的老師，還有我們家長自己，大家要相輔相成去做，但是站在教育單位的立場，我們能做的一定要先把它做足。","好，我今天再跟你提一下，除了我們學生的自傷跟自殺的數字不斷在提高，我們要去瞭解原因之外，學校的專輔人力還要做什麼？我們現在有校園三害，部長知道是哪三害嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在最關心的是……"],["萬委員美玲：你告訴我校園三害是哪三害？"],["鄭部長英耀：就是校園霸凌，然後毒品，還有黑幫。"],["萬委員美玲：一百分！給您一百分！雖然頗有猶豫，但是一百分。霸凌、毒品加幫派是校園三害，我們看到霸凌的通報案件數從108年的767件，到112年嚇死人了，成長到2,502件，成長了3.3倍之多，而且這個是登記有案的，還有沒去通報的。再來，網路霸凌也非常的嚴重，有關於網路霸凌，按照董氏基金會的調查顯示，全臺有2.5%的青少年曾經遇到網路霸凌，而且有18.8%的青少年曾經因為等等出現自傷的企圖，網路霸凌的調查其實不是那麼好蒐集的，所以這個數據我認為還要更高一些。對於網路霸凌，請問部長知道現在如果發生了網路霸凌，我們的處理的原則是什麼？要怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想網路霸凌確實是一個……"],["萬委員美玲：學校的處理原則是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我是不是能夠請署長說明？"],["萬委員美玲：好，署長來說明好了。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，現在我們有一個反霸凌的整體簡化方案，一是霸凌專線簡化，二是整體的接聽，我們有專人，第三是24小時專人服務，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，我覺得有做任何動作都是好的，但是如果我們只是靠電話接聽這種方法，沒有溫度啊，你知道被霸凌的孩子其實受到的創傷非常大，他在決定要不要去找人幫忙他的時候，他還要經過很多的掙扎，所以設置這麼多通報的網路也好，還是專線也好，本席認為其實效果不大。所以專輔人力其實非常的重要，因為霸凌這件事情太嚴重了，尤其是網路霸凌，我們希望未來部裡面要重視這一塊，我們要有更深的、能夠接住孩子在網路霸凌的這個部分。","再來，剛剛也講到毒品跟幫派，這個本席要稱讚一下，依照警政署的資料統計，目前以整個6到23歲的學生在販售、持有跟使用毒品的學生數來說，我們看到持有跟使用的數量是下降的，代表我們過去所做的可能有一些成效出來，但是我們看到這個情況依舊存在、依然存在。再來，我們看到販賣的部分是增加的，販賣部分增加，但持有跟使用是下降，這個數據我覺得我們要去考量它的正確性到哪裡，所以我覺得校園毒品這個問題依然還在，我們知道孩子接觸毒品其實是會有些徵兆出來的，我們需不需要學校的輔導人力在這個時候也可以來介入，趕快拉他一把。","最後，在幫派的部分，現在黑幫入侵校園的狀況也比比皆是，只是程度不一而已，當然我們也有警政系統會進來，還有學校的學務等等，但是無論如何，如果我們在孩子出現狀況的時候，與其強力的讓其他比如今天警政系統的力量進來、學務的力量進來，孩子不一定能聽，或者你在當下糾正他完畢以後，他未必就能夠脫離，但如果能夠從輔導開始做起，我覺得那才是能夠真正去抽離的喔！","部長，我今天跟您提到您剛剛回答一百分的霸凌、毒品加幫派，以及我們孩子自殺、自傷，這一些在在都是在學校裡面發生，因為現在孩子接觸太多元及眾多的訊息，所以我們真的急需輔導人力的增加。現在您剛上任，跟我們所有教文的委員，我覺得我們剛好碰到了5年以上要來修法的契機，這是一個非常神聖、非常重要的使命，因為這次我們修完了，下一次要再修法不知道是在什麼時候，而這麼多孩子要因應著我們的修法，所以本席在這裡要拜託部長，在逐條討論的時候能夠多參酌所有委員的建議，然後我們這一次能夠把學生輔導法修得更好，讓我們的專輔人力都能夠到位。","最後，各縣市的財政狀況不一，我們在修法的過程當中要謹記，不要變成是中央政策出來但都讓地方買單，當地方沒有財政支援它的時候就等於空，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，我的心情及我們努力的目標跟委員是一樣的，謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那我們就一起加油，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長，謝謝萬美玲委員。","接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 18 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員許智傑等25\n人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生\n輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正\n草案」案；九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審查\n委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具\n「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分\n條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員郭昱晴等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員郭\n國文等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員郭國文等 19 人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條\n文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員萬\n美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條\n及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正\n草案」案；二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十\n五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十六、審查委員林\n月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案(僅進行詢答)","agenda_id":"1136601_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.00471875,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.73409375,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.31159375,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.39971875,"end":90.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.29971875000001,"end":92.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.21471875,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.47409375000001,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.59221875,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.13221875,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.65409375,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.49284375,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.80846875,"end":133.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.37721875,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.69784375,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.73159375,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.77784375000002,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.49784375000002,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.83284375,"end":299.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.11534375,"end":297.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.46096875,"end":302.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.20721875000004,"end":303.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.25346875,"end":304.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.24034375,"end":307.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.79284375000003,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.88971875000004,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.40846875,"end":311.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.79221875,"end":367.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.05784375,"end":368.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.71971875,"end":374.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.14971875000003,"end":375.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.69784375,"end":378.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.01409375000003,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.03096875,"end":378.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.14471875000004,"end":380.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.82346875,"end":383.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.73034375000003,"end":398.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.34846875000005,"end":398.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.05284375,"end":574.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.9622187500001,"end":582.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.9734687499999,"end":584.96909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.22,"end":3.94,"text":"五十五班的,現在只有佔8%。"},{"start":30.832,"end":40.558,"text":"則是說有92%的學校現在不符合我們可以去設置專任的這個輔導人力那即便按照本期這次在修第11條那我們要把它降到30班還有7成多還有7成1也沒有辦法達到就是剛才我們提到的"},{"start":46.721,"end":68.955,"text":"每一校都可以去設置專輔人力那部長剛剛本席在聽您報告的時候聽到您想說這一次我們院板在明天會出來嘛 對不對那相信這也是不理送上去的那剛剛您有報告到說我們這一次的修法在教育部的立場是用這個總學生數為基礎來做一個修訂能不能說明一下什麼個總學生數為基礎的修訂法"},{"start":70.455,"end":91.833,"text":"我們目前就回應委員跟我們這個專業團體所關心的我們大概也找出了一個相對的一個適合的模式大概就是各先生裡邊有等於說20校以上我們會再額外增加一位專任的輔導老師沒有輔導不好意思我打斷一下這個可能不是我的問題對不對"},{"start":93.274,"end":98.279,"text":"另外就是各縣市裡邊我們當然也算了一下大概4500位到5000的學生我們也會去增加這個專輔人力。所以部長您的意思是說現在會用4500到5000人去增加一個專輔的人力而不是以班為單位是這樣的意思嗎?"},{"start":116.715,"end":132.542,"text":"adequ.我們原來也有班因為小學來講原來就是規劃是24班但是現在我們在努力那個是學校的那個那是地方縣市政府他的這個支付中心啦諮商中心啦沒有那是學校學校24班目前是24班"},{"start":134.003,"end":134.504,"text":"三、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":161.323,"end":182.995,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":183.035,"end":189.561,"text":"但是這邊有幾個跟部長這邊來討論一下今天我們在講專輔人力為什麼專輔人力那麼重要剛剛也提到三級輔導三級輔導是發展介入跟儲育在發展介入的時候學校有學校的導師或者是我們輔導可以來做到了這個儲育的時候我們非常需要專輔人力我們要講"},{"start":206.678,"end":226.293,"text":"學校是一個教育單位我們應該要在教育單位裡面就要把這些預防如果就能夠把它做好來那要把預防能夠做好來我們就是輔導人力要增加這一點這個邏輯是非常清楚的部長最重要在本席後面要講當我們在學校的部分把輔導人力增加了你看似現在要增加了一些經費那你覺得這個經費有負擔可是您知道嗎如果我們把學生的現場的輔導做好"},{"start":230.916,"end":230.956,"text":" ﹝審查委員﹞"},{"start":246.988,"end":248.149,"text":"：一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具：一、審查委員李柏毅等19人擬"},{"start":263.487,"end":263.507,"text":"閱讀委員會議"},{"start":282.85,"end":304.697,"text":"我今天再跟你提一下除了我們學生的自傷跟自殺的這個數字不斷在提高我們要去了解原因之外學校的專輔人力還要做什麼我們現在有這個校園三害部長知道是哪三害嗎我們現在最關心的你告訴我校園三害哪三害就校園霸凌然後這個毒品還有黑幫100分"},{"start":313.204,"end":325.573,"text":"檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬檢查委員林宜瑾等18人擬檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18人檢查委員林宜瑾等18"},{"start":337.881,"end":339.202,"text":"網絡霸凌 網絡霸凌"},{"start":367.841,"end":369.283,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬"},{"start":384.755,"end":397.814,"text":"各位報告現在我們有一個反霸凌的整體的簡化方案一是霸凌專線簡化二是整體的接聽我們有專人二第三是24小時來專人服務好謝謝好"},{"start":401.301,"end":419.554,"text":"議長,我覺得有做任何的動作都是好的。但是呢,如果我們只是靠電話接聽這種事情,沒有溫度啊。你知道被霸凌的孩子,其實他那個受創傷非常的大。那他要決定要不要去找人幫忙他的時候,他要經過很多的掙扎。所以呢,設置這麼多通報的網路也好啦,還是專線也好。"},{"start":420.555,"end":442.5,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":442.56,"end":465.138,"text":"我們整個這個6到23歲的學生在販售持有跟使用毒品的學生數我們有看到持有跟使用那個數量是下降的那代表其實我們可能過去所做的我們有一些成效出來但是我們看到它依舊存在依然存在那再來我們有沒有辦法我們看到販賣的部分是增加的喔販賣部分增加但持有跟使用是下降"},{"start":465.418,"end":482.517,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":482.657,"end":482.877,"text":"一、審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具"},{"start":500.486,"end":517.193,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":517.253,"end":517.834,"text":"netesley Chen等19人擬"},{"start":535.35,"end":551.247,"text":"您剛上任跟我們所有教文的委員我覺得我們剛好碰到了這個五年以上沒有來這個修法這是非常神聖非常重要的一個使命我們修完了下一次再修法不知道什麼時候而這麼多孩子要因應著我們的修法所以本席在這裡要拜託部長"},{"start":552.028,"end":552.048,"text":" ﹝討論中﹞"},{"start":575.331,"end":582.195,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,我的心情跟我們努力的目標跟委員是一樣的。謝謝委員的提醒,謝謝。那我們就一起加油,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154211","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154211","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd180f474dd050537dcc258fa09de8d0f308f090ddb9b7d6d69560794a62423eb585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:47:32 - 09:56:59","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:47:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:56:59+08:00","duration":567,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":281,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時47分）謝謝主席，我想請一下連次長，還有中油的李董事長、台電的王總經理、台糖的楊董事長、台水的李董事長。"],["主席：以上五位請就質詢臺，謝謝。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為今天召委特別安排經濟部面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為，所以我們四大國營事業的董事長跟總經理都在現場，針對這部分我特別關心，因為我看到經濟部這邊提出來的報告，我發現整體來說，台電這邊表示他們從113年起退休人數逐漸減緩，已無落差過大之斷層，台電表示好像沒有人力的問題；中油這邊也表示111年起退休人數趨緩，已無明顯之斷層，所以中油也沒有問題；然後台糖這邊表示114年起可逐漸脫離退休高峰期，員工年資、年齡偏高的情況都明顯獲得改善，人力斷層壓力也逐年減輕，台糖也沒有問題；台水也表示近年來退休潮也有所趨緩，四大國營事業都表示人力沒有問題，我感覺很像今天經濟委員會安排經濟部面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為好像是一個多餘的報告。","可是我想請教一下次長，這幾年的退休人數屢創新高，因為我這邊的統計數字只有到111年，針對這個部分，我想問四大國營事業公司，112年中油自願退休的人數有多少？有多少屆齡退休？離職人數有多少？請給我具體的數字，好不好？然後台電也請準備，台糖、台水都請準備去年自願退休人數、屆齡退休人數還有離職人數。"],["李董事長順欽：委員好。跟委員報告，事實上中油公司去年整個退休跟離職的人數總共是731位。"],["鄭委員正鈐：總共731位？可不可以分成自願退休、屆齡退休跟離職人數？"],["連次長錦漳：屆齡退休是352人，離職是221人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那其他都是自願退休？"],["李董事長順欽：自願退休是282人，屆齡退休是450人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：台電這邊呢？台電的數字請給我，自願退休有多少人？"],["王總經理耀庭：台電屆退是994人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：994人？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，離職370人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，離職370人，自願退休……"],["連次長錦漳：屆齡退休是994人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，然後自願退休有多少人？"],["王總經理耀庭：自願退休是……"],["胡司長文中：我們這個地方沒有統計。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有統計自願退休，是不是？"],["胡司長文中：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那台糖的部分呢？我為什麼會特別要問自願退休跟屆齡退休一定是有我的意思，台糖這邊請給我具體數字。"],["楊董事長明州：關於台糖的部分，退休人數是162人，離職人數是40人，加起來是202人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們可不可以把162人分成自願退休跟屆齡退休？"],["楊董事長明州：通常都是屆齡退休。"],["鄭委員正鈐：台糖自願退休少，對不對？"],["楊董事長明州：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。台水這邊請給我數字。"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，112年台水公司的退休人數是202人，自願退休是57人，屆退是145人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，自願退休多少人？"],["李董事長嘉榮：自願退休57人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：57人嘛？"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，然後屆齡退休是？"],["李董事長嘉榮：145人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：離職人數？"],["李董事長嘉榮：離職人數是143人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝四位董事長、總經理，為什麼要特別問這個問題？因為我看到整個屆齡退休的數字在111年時，只有29.4%是屆齡退休，表示有超過七成的人都是自願退休，跟你們剛剛報給我的數字有一點點落差，每一年的情況都會改變我可以理解，可是我為什麼要特別問這件事情？我想問一下次長，我們今年四大國營公司準備要招考多少人？"],["連次長錦漳：中油1,100人，台電……"],["鄭委員正鈐：中油1,100？"],["連次長錦漳：1,100人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不是，我說今年總共要招考多少人，中油1,100人？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：要招考1,100人？我看到經濟部在6月12號上網公告經濟部所屬事業單位113年招考總共只有826人，結果你說中油就1,100人，這是什麼狀態？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，那是職員的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：職員的部分嘛？"],["李董事長順欽：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你那部分包括臨時人員嘛？"],["李董事長順欽：不是，包括技術員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：包括技術人員，好，這個部分請次長到時候整合所有的數字給我。"],["連次長錦漳：我們整合一個數字給委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，因為我想看一下我們四大國營公司的人力情況到底是如何，因為我這邊看到一個情況，就是我們今年要招考826名，目前還在找，我看到去年的數字，錄取率大概是10%左右而已，我為什麼會特別問自願退休跟屆齡退休的狀態還有離職人數？坦白說，因為國營事業的福利比一般公務人員好，穩定性比一般私人企業好，所以國營事業單位在市場上是很有招收的競爭力，可是我看到我們的報告，好像都不缺人。我覺得如何留才是個問題，所以我今天在這邊請四位董事長、總經理上來，就是要特別提到我們國營事業如何留才的問題。關於如何留才，我們看到的情況有點令人擔心，像台水之前找了50個退休的人進來當顧問，為什麼？因為第一線的技術人員不夠，人找進來，技術人員是不是能夠滿足第一線的要求？看起來是有一些問題的；我們看到中油體系，在煉油廠當中，很多第一線員工的工作環境並不是那麼好，所以流動性高，我們希望國營事業有相當的穩定性，因此本席在這邊希望次長能夠特別針對國營事業單位的數位化能力有所提高，我們認為4大國營事業單位應該是有競爭力的，可是我們看到目前民間的亞太行銷數位轉型聯盟協會，他們針對臺灣各個產業跟政府部門研究，政府部門這邊我先不講，但國營事業單位是所有數位轉型能力最差的。","現在臺灣不斷強調半導體跟AI，我希望國營事業單位能夠跟上這個腳步，透過數位化、自動化、AI化的狀態，能夠讓我們的國營事業單位更具競爭力，有更多的福利能夠給國營事業單位的員工，讓他們能夠真正的留才下來。","之後請次長把4個國營事業單位的人才流動狀態，還有如何把人才留下來的情況，給本席一個更詳細的報告。"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們也請國營會針對四大國營事業單位、針對今天的主題，本席特別要聽取四大國營事業的困難以及人力的缺口，到底目前人力夠不夠？每一年退休，包括屆齡退休，以及自願離職的，待會趕快請他們做一個表出來，我想每個委員都會問你這個問題，我們不希望浪費時間，讓4大公司在那邊一個一個……待會再請國營會報告。","謝謝，接下來我們請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":2.3934687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9.632843750000003,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.59346875,"end":20.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":18.62721875,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":20.26409375,"end":24.887843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.86721875,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25.25909375,"end":25.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.309718750000002,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":25.76534375,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.12784375,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.01346875,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":33.30846875,"end":56.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":56.882843750000006,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":104.40284375,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":114.89909375,"end":116.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":117.90284375,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":128.56784375,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":146.75909375,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":149.05409375000002,"end":152.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":152.85096875000002,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":154.31909375,"end":159.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.00971875000002,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.62409375000001,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":174.80534375000002,"end":179.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":179.53034375000001,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":179.54721875,"end":184.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":184.39034375,"end":185.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":187.24221875,"end":188.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":188.74409375000002,"end":188.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.33034375000003,"end":196.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":192.72659375,"end":195.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":196.84409375,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":198.73409375,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":199.89846875,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":202.04159375,"end":204.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":209.06159375000001,"end":222.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":214.66409375,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.96346875,"end":217.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.73909375000002,"end":220.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":223.37159375000002,"end":225.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":225.95346875,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":226.15596875000003,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":228.78846875000002,"end":228.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":229.02471875,"end":231.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":231.70784375000002,"end":231.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":231.75846875000002,"end":231.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.77534375000002,"end":231.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":231.84284375000001,"end":231.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.89346875,"end":232.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":232.02846875,"end":232.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":232.46721875,"end":233.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":234.12096875,"end":239.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":234.76221875000002,"end":235.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":237.25971875000002,"end":238.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":238.98096875000002,"end":240.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":239.03159375,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":243.23346875000001,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":243.67221875,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":243.97596875000002,"end":244.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.44409375,"end":248.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":248.00909375,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":248.29596875000001,"end":250.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":250.82721875000001,"end":251.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":251.70471875,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.00721875,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.96846875,"end":268.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.71471875000003,"end":270.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":270.87471875,"end":274.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":274.57034375,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":277.67534375,"end":279.78471875},{"speaker":"SPE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意思臺堂這邊請給我具體數字"},{"start":260.511,"end":286.518,"text":"台糖的部分退休人數是162人那離職人數是40人加起來是202162你們可不可以分成自願退休跟借零退休通常都是借零退休的台糖自願退休少對不對那台水這邊請給我數字跟委員報告112年台水公司的退休人數是202人"},{"start":289.246,"end":302.576,"text":"那志願退休是57人,借退是145人。OK,志願退休多少人?志願退休57人。57人嘛。OK,然後借贏退休是?145。145,離職人數?離職人數是143人。143人喔。OK,謝謝那四位董事長、總經理為什麼要特別問這個問題?"},{"start":316.065,"end":340.258,"text":"是因為我看到所有的這個部分我們看到整個借鈴退休的數字在111年當中的時候只有29.4%是借鈴退休表示有超過7成的人都是自願退休跟你們剛剛給我報的數字有一點點落差那每一年的情況都會改變我可以理解可是我為什麼要特別問這個事情因為"},{"start":341.639,"end":354.126,"text":"市長我想問一下我們今年四大國營公司的時候準備要招考多少人中游1100人不是我說今年準備要招考多少人中游1100"},{"start":364.349,"end":372.314,"text":"要招考1100人我看到在6月12日經濟部上網公告經濟部所屬事業單位113人招考總共只有826人耶中研就1100這是什麼狀態那個是職員職員的部分嘛你那部分包括臨時人員嗎包括技術人員"},{"start":390.994,"end":415.655,"text":"那這個部分至少你到時候你整合所有的數字給我一下我們整合一個數字給委員因為我想看一下我們四大國營公司的人力情況到底是如何因為我這邊看到一個情況就是我們今年要招考826名那目前還在找那我看到去年的數字的時候我們錄取率大概是10%左右而已可是我為什麼會特別要問自願退休跟"},{"start":416.892,"end":417.613,"text":"今天請四位董事長總經理這邊上來的時候"},{"start":446.235,"end":458.709,"text":"就特別提到我們國營事業如何留才的問題如何留才那如何留才這邊的時候呢我們看到的情況有點擔心像台水之前找了50個退休的人進來當顧問為什麼因為第一線的技術人員不夠"},{"start":463.354,"end":485.748,"text":"你人找進來是不是技術人員能夠滿足第一線的要求看起來是有一些問題的那我們看到中油這體系當中在煉油廠當中的時候很多第一線的員工公眾環境並不是那麼好所以流動性高那我們希望國營事業有一個相當的穩定性所以本席在這邊的時候也特別希望次長這邊能夠"},{"start":488.85,"end":501.458,"text":"來特別針對國營事業單位在數位化的能力能夠有所提高因為四大國營事業單位我們都認為他應該是有競爭力的可是我們看到了目前"},{"start":503.393,"end":522.406,"text":"就是民間對於整個亞太行銷數位轉型聯盟協會他針對整個台灣各個產業跟政府部門的時候我們看到了國營事業單位政府部門我這邊我先不講可是國營事業單位在說的數位轉型當中能力是最差的"},{"start":523.626,"end":541.372,"text":"所以現在台灣不斷在強調半導體跟AI的情況我希望國營事業單位能夠在這個腳步上面能夠跟上透過數位化、自動化跟AI化的一個狀態能夠讓我們的國營事業單位更具競爭力然後有更多的福利能夠給"},{"start":543.553,"end":562.451,"text":"在歸社單位的員工讓他們能夠真正留才下來所以之後請次長這邊把四個歸社單位他們的人的流動的狀態還有如何把人才留下來的情況給本席一個更詳細的報告以上 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600M-V」兩款自殺式攻擊無人機，國防部是否將要採購？另外就是國防的兩型飛彈現況，我們中科院國造就已經可以對應，跟這兩款美國的無人機都有平衡性的對抗，怎麼會還要再採購然後付出3.6億美元？"],["顧部長立雄：我先跟委員報告，剛剛您提到漢光演習的實彈，我們只是取消漢光那種比較展示性的部分，但是我們年度的這種實彈訓練並沒有少，反而增加了，這個部分要跟各位委員報告。關於彈簧刀的部分，我們是採雙重的方式，就是一方面我們對美採購，但是我們也不放棄自製生產，這樣子才能夠確保我們國防自主的生產能量。同時，就美國這個部分的採購，因為這一次行政審查的程序加速了，讓我們也能夠快速的取得，所以我們是以雙重的方式並進。"],["黃委員仁：以目前來講，我們中科院巡飛彈1型已經量產，而由海軍陸戰隊採購了300枚，今年交軍50枚，明年交軍250枚，都已經有這樣的能量跟能力來平行對抗彈簧刀-300型。","第二個是巡飛彈2型，中科院已在去年的航太展首度公開，備受關注，而且我們中科院也獲選年度模範團隊，所以我們絕對有這個能力，為什麼還要再準備採購、花3.6億的軍購費用來買美國所謂的彈簧刀-300型？"],["張院長忠誠：委員你好。剛才誠如委員所講的，中科院第二型600的目前還在研發階段，今年會完成所有研發測評，明年預劃把性能做好之後，會向軍方展示，就是誠如剛剛部長講的，其實我們那個武器系統是以研發跟外購並行的方式來走，中科院也沒有放棄在研發上持續努力。"],["黃委員仁：中科院已經有這個能力，所以沒有必要再跟美國來採購彈簧刀-300型，今天我們的錢要花在刀口上，中科院既然有能力，我們應該以中科院為主，不要仰賴美國這些武器，既然都可以平行的對抗，為什麼還要再採購？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，陸軍參謀長向您補充報告。第一個，我們向美採購的是一個成熟而且是在戰場上有實戰經驗的成熟的裝備。第二個，不管是彈簧刀-300、ALTIUS 600或是中科院所研發的巡飛彈，因為我們的敵情目標種類不同，我們會依據不同的目標，然後有多重的、符合戰術的運用……"],["黃委員仁：你們再審慎的考量，好不好？再審慎的考量，不要輕易的做一個決定，以上。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-29","speakers":["馬文君","賴士葆","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","黃國昌","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","林憶君","翁曉玲","徐欣瑩","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第29次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國防部部長顧立雄率參謀總長報告「漢光四十號演習」規劃情形，並備質詢；二、審查\n本院委員馬文君等 21 人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨\n團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.19096875,"end":3.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.57471875,"end":4.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.283468750000001,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.650343750000001,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.46721875,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.27284375,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.347843750000003,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.337218750000005,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.59784375,"end":47.500343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.057218750000004,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.424093750000004,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.010343750000004,"end":57.017843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.439718750000004,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.31159375,"end":67.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.17221875,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.85846875,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.69284375000001,"end":93.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.22721875,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.78659375,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.01409375,"end":136.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.03909375,"end":150.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":151.07909375,"end":170.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.21534375000002,"end":172.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":173.50596875000002,"end":181.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.36971875,"end":181.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":182.90534375000001,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.02346875,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.05284375000002,"end":192.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.96284375000002,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.93721875,"end":222.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.56159375000001,"end":234.59346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.91409375,"end":243.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.77346875,"end":246.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.16096875000002,"end":248.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.17784375000002,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.19471875000002,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.73471875,"end":248.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.20721875,"end":253.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.96596875000003,"end":260.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.66534375000003,"end":290.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.60159375,"end":359.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":360.76784375,"end":363.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":363.80534375,"end":399.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":399.31034375,"end":445.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":445.44659375000003,"end":474.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.97784375000003,"end":513.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":513.97596875,"end":547.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.3672187500001,"end":573.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.19909375,"end":627.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.9665937500001,"end":647.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.2703437499999,"end":628.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.5434687500001,"end":635.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.54159375,"end":673.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.1028437500001,"end":676.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.70159375,"end":698.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.71846875,"end":677.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.74034375,"end":699.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.63471875,"end":700.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.3390937500001,"end":729.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.27971875,"end":732.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.50721875,"end":732.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.7222187500001,"end":736.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.0847187500001,"end":736.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":736.47284375,"end":737.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":737.02971875,"end":760.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.0634687500001,"end":737.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":737.1140937499999,"end":737.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.14784375,"end":737.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.4353437500001,"end":784.70159375},{"speaker"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600MV及這個600型的兩款自殺式的攻擊無人機、國防部是否有將要採購。那我們另外就是國防的兩型飛彈現況我們中科院國照就已經可以對峙跟這些"},{"start":618.976,"end":645.691,"text":"兩款的這一些美國的方式都有平衡型的一個對抗怎麼會還要再採購這個付這個3.6億的美元我先跟委員報告齁剛剛您提到那個漢光的實彈齁我們只是取消那種叫漢光展示性的這種但是我們年度的這種實彈的訓練沒有少反而增加這個部分要跟各位委員報告談判到的部分呢我們是採"},{"start":647.748,"end":649.491,"text":"委員王鴻薇等2委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":665.712,"end":689.473,"text":"這一次的因為行政審查的程序加速了以後讓我們也能夠快速的取得所以我們是兩個雙重的方式都來併進我們中科院已經目前來講巡飛彈一行中科院已量產而由海軍陸戰隊採購了300枚今年交薪50枚明年交薪"},{"start":691.434,"end":711.867,"text":"我250名都已經有這樣的能量跟能力來跟平行我們的堂皇道的三百行所以第二個是巡飛彈的二行中科院在去年的航太首度公開這個備受這個關注而且我們在中科院也"},{"start":712.467,"end":732.607,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員王�"},{"start":733.803,"end":760.218,"text":"主席,再給我幾秒鐘。市委員你好。剛才陳如委員所講的中科院第二型六百目前還在研發階段。今年會完成所有的研發測評。明年預劃把新人做好之後會向軍統展示。就如陳如剛剛部長講的,其實我們那個武器系統由研發跟外交來並行的方式來走。中科院也沒有放棄在研發持續的方式。"},{"start":760.538,"end":784.688,"text":"所以中科院已經有這個能力所以沒有必要再跟美國來採購彈簧刀三百型我們今天我們要刀錢要發在刀口上中科院既然有能力我們應該以中科院為主不要仰賴美國這一些武器既然都可以平行的對抗為什麼還要再採購"},{"start":785.208,"end":803.589,"text":"外務委員陸軍、參謀長這邊向您補充報告。第一個,我們向美採購的它是一個成熟而且是在戰場上有實戰經驗的一個成熟的裝備。第二個,不管是彈簧刀300或是Otis 600或是中科院所研發的巡飛彈,因為我們的敵情的目標種類不同。"},{"start":804.15,"end":816.16,"text":"那我們會依據不同的目標然後有多重的這個符合戰術的考量好不好在審慎的考量不要輕易的來這樣子來做一個決定好以上謝謝接下來請陳永康"}]}},{"id":"154209","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154209","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1051b7f525c447cf408df44dd9bf560a28f090ddb9b7d6d6926bd567c34d508ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:38:41 - 09:51:45","影片長度":"00:13:04","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:38:41+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:51:45+08:00","duration":784,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":241,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時38分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請財政部的莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你好，今年的稅收看起來還是超收，證交稅漲了21%，現在來講，到5月份大概名目上是1,590億，到4月底是1,156億，房地合一稅到4月底165億，都增加，綜所稅今年增加了大概10%左右，從6,000億到7,000億，營所稅稍微差一點，看起來整個到現在為止還不到半年，都增加耶，特別證交稅增加蠻多的，增加21%，這個要不要講一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，證交稅到5月底……您這邊1,156億是到5月底的證交稅實徵數。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，這個是4月底的，4月底是1,590億。"],["莊部長翠雲：證交稅到5月底是1,156億，這是到5月底的數據。跟委員報告，關於證交稅，因為今年股市平均日均量達到4,900多億，事實上比我們當時預估的日均量3,500億高了很多，我想這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：那時候你們預估多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們原來預估一天的日均量是3,500億，而現在大概的平均數則是達到4,900多億……"],["賴委員士葆：快到5,000億了。"],["莊部長翠雲：有的時候還會超過5,000億，所以這個部分因為股市的熱絡，帶動了證交稅收取的數額，所以是比去年增加的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以到今年可以增加多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是指整體還是……"],["賴委員士葆：整體。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前整體看起來，以中央數來說，到5月底我們比去年增加了561億，中央數是增加485億，比去年增加，以整體來看的話，今年應該是可以達得到我們稅收的預算數。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有問題？到5月嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，可以達得到，可是到9月還有一個營所稅的暫繳稅款會進來，也跟委員報告，營所稅在今年的稅收中，到5月底為止，事實上是比去年少的，在營所稅的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：差不多啦！只有少一點點。"],["莊部長翠雲：全國數是2,923億，比去年少了400多億，因為112年上市櫃公司獲利情形事實上是下滑的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我們不能這樣估，到5月底為止，大概增加500多億，所以1個月就增加100多億，如果再加上9月份的暫繳稅款，今年可望超增大概2,000億，按照這樣估。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然今年的預算數達成是沒有問題的，應該也會超過，至於超過多少，我覺得要到下半年會比較明朗。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛剛講5月底維持是500多億，平均後一個月就是100多億，然後9月份有個暫繳稅款，這樣幫你加起來，差不多是1,500億到2,000億之間，差不多是這樣子。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員這樣的估計也許是樂觀，當然我們也希望……"],["賴委員士葆：不是樂觀……"],["莊部長翠雲：稅收好的話，當然代表我們整個經濟成長，譬如說綜所稅今年也是成長的，因為利息所得、薪資所得增加，所以綜所稅增加。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你們更應該有多一點錢給地方政府。","今天的題目是要修所得稅法，裡面有一條你們好像沒有修，但法制局提出的觀念是，對於沒有扣繳的，企業要罰，但是機關不用罰，你知道這件事吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：我請賦稅署署長說明。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，這個條文是從以前就是這樣的，主要的原因，跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：不應該修一下嗎？法制局已經把這個觀念講出來了。"],["宋署長秀玲：跟委員報告緣由之後，然後在討論的時候，大家再來看看怎麼處理，它主要的原因是因為我們所有的政府機關它的責任……譬如我們編預算，假設它被處罰了，它還是要編預算，就是左口袋、右口袋的問題，所以當時我們對政府機關的部分是用行政責任，簡單來講就是上級機關對下級機關必須予以督促……"],["賴委員士葆：用「機關」就好了，是不是？"],["宋署長秀玲：對，當時是這個原因……"],["賴委員士葆：你可以想一下，企業都要罰了，比如說臺灣銀行董事長呂桔誠他就罰啊！沒有扣，他就罰，其他的不用啊！好啦，我就是提醒你。","回過頭來，我們看一下大家關心的青安專案的事情。其實青安專案是當初賴清德總統在選總統的時候，他提出了兩個矛盾的政策，一個是囤房稅2.0，迫於壓力，你看到那時候我們在野黨提了十幾個版本，財政部硬是不同意，不要！不要！不要！結果賴清德一聲令下，就這樣推過了，囤房稅2.0抑制炒房，結果現在又推了一個青安專案，而且現在火熱得不得了，到現在為止，官股的行庫就貸出去了4,700多億，它主要的重點是什麼？還款期限從30年到40年，寬限期就是只有付利息，不要付本金的，是3到5年。剛剛幾個委員都有講到，讓我馬上想到這會不會有投機的問題，像父母即便有5棟房子，他仍可以用他小孩的名字再買1棟，拿去做什麼事情都是有可能的，是不是？請問你，用青安貸款買了房子以後能不能賣？"],["莊部長翠雲：用青安貸款買了房子以後是可以移轉……"],["賴委員士葆：可以移轉啊！助長炒房啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：囤房稅2.0，其實它的目的是讓我們房屋的持有稅合理化，目的也是希望房屋不要空置，應該做有效利用，同時我們進行全國規劃……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你回答我剛才的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：青安是針對沒有房屋自住的人，他買了房子要做自住啊！這是要做自住的，囤房稅其實在單一自住裡面，稅率還可以下降的。"],["賴委員士葆：但是他可以賣啊！譬如說這個爸爸已經有5棟房子了，一看到這個有機可乘，就用兒子的名字買，講難聽一點，這樣講也許對他們不公平，把兒子當人頭，用兒子的名義去買1棟，然後沒有多久就把它賣掉，結果現在青安貸款火熱得不得了，大投機時代啊！變成了這樣啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，房屋成交量的成長有各種的因素，不一定純是青安貸款。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我都擔心以後會有次房貸的危機，即他的貸款40年後還不出來，這是另外一個問題喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，其實青安貸款，第一個，拉長貸款期限，然後寬限期5年，其實青年朋友們在買房子後，在寬限期裡面，他如果自己賺的錢有結餘，比如說拿到年終獎金，他可以事先把本金還掉，則他的利息可以下降……"],["賴委員士葆：你要知道，以後他每個月要還3萬到6萬，但他的平均薪水只有4萬多……"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得年輕人其實也是可以有財務規劃的，他可以拿自己的年終獎金先去還本金，並不是都會這麼地投機！"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你聽我講，你可以想一下，他未來一個月要還3萬、要還4萬、要還5萬，這個東西老實講你只看到一面，你沒有看到另外一面……"],["莊部長翠雲：房子是一個高價的資產，我們在買房的時候，事實上要量力而為，要考慮自己的收入情形，銀行在做貸款的時候，也會審核他的收入狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：我比較擔心的是這裡面4,700多億，就是公家行庫還有民間的部分，真的火熱得不得了，有多少人拿去炒房，拿這個去投機，拿這個去賣啊！但有些人沒有孩子就沒辦法用，有孩子才可以用，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們絕對不會讓青安貸款去做投機，這個部分我們會加強做追蹤跟稽查。"],["賴委員士葆：你怎麼加強？你怎麼稽查？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當然是有些態樣可以去做後續的追蹤……"],["賴委員士葆：他賣你會稽查嗎？他可以賣啊！你剛剛說的，可以賣啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，可以賣，對！這個部分我們後續……"],["賴委員士葆：他是合理地去賣，買了又賣，你要查什麼？這沒辦法查，對不對？","最後一個，這是你回我的文，有關於加熱菸，我一直很在意這個，然後你的回文說，臺北關的數量有2,687，沒有電子載具；高雄關、臺中關、臺北關都有加熱菸，還有加熱菸載具。國庫署，你們抓私菸、抓私酒，卻不抓加熱菸！有委員在總質詢就提到了，因為加熱菸氾濫，現在everywhere都有人在抽加熱菸，立法院也是有人在抽，規定是不可以的……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，加熱菸要經過健康風險評估才可以販售跟製造，所以它在市面上是違反菸害防制法，那個部分衛福部會去做查緝……"],["賴委員士葆：對，一件都沒有，衛福部的資料上是一件都沒有！"],["莊部長翠雲：因為沒有給它過。"],["賴委員士葆：一件都沒過……"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：所以就跟電子煙一樣，它是違法的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，違法，違反菸害防制法。"],["賴委員士葆：你們為什麼不抓？"],["莊部長翠雲：他違反菸害防制法，那是衛福部會去做查緝的。"],["賴委員士葆：不是！你們抓私煙、抓私酒，那加熱菸你們抓不抓？不抓？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，加熱菸的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，加熱菸是不是菸？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是菸啊！它就是一個管子，然後一個菸彈在裡面，怎麼不是菸呢？它當然是菸啊！既然你們有抓私菸，現在這麼多人在抽，難道你們不用抓嗎？你們不抓？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，它是違反菸害防制法的規定，所以衛福部會去做查緝。"],["賴委員士葆：衛福部也不抓，這不是他們管的。我問了，衛福部說是你們管的，是國庫署管的。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們沒有！因為健康風險評估是他們的業務。"],["賴委員士葆：所以各位看清楚，現在還有一堆加熱菸放在自由貿易港區裡準備進來，已經放半年了，這個也是經過你們同意才進來的。"],["莊部長翠雲：它只是儲放在那邊，但它不能進來……"],["賴委員士葆：放半年了！"],["莊部長翠雲：它是儲放在那邊……"],["賴委員士葆：放了半年了，為什麼放半年、放那麼久？因為你們不抓！所以委員在總質詢時講，現在菸捐、菸稅已經少了100億，就是因為大家都抽加熱菸，你們抓不到，你們也沒有認真去抓！我最後一句話，這部分你們去思考一下要不要取締？要不要抓？要不要？"],["莊部長翠雲：這屬於菸害防制法的規範範圍。跟委員報告，在自由貿易港區的加熱菸其實還是不能進到我們關內，我們海關還是會管的！"],["賴委員士葆：在立法院都有抽，大官都在抽，梁文傑也抽，潘孟安也抽，不是嗎？早就everywhere都有，怎麼會……講這個樣子……講的……"],["主席：會後跟賴委員說明一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們會後再跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：我就是一句話，衛福部說這不關他們的事，結果財政部也說不關你們的事，但是它就在你我旁邊，這件事很奇怪！好吧，你給我回這個文……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再跟衛福部來溝通。"],["主席：也請跟衛福部積極溝通。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，積極溝通。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員質詢。","接著我們請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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這個事實上在"},{"start":93.743,"end":105.908,"text":"比我們當時在預估的時候的一個日均量到3500億是高很多那我想這個部分因為在預估計上我們原來預估是一天是3500億日均量是3500億那現在大概平均數達到4900多億有時候都會超過5000億所以這個部分的股市的一個熱絡所以帶動了證交稅的一個收取的一個數額"},{"start":122.13,"end":145.54,"text":"所以是比去年增加所以到今年我可以增加多少今年如果您是指整體還是整體整體來說目前看起來整體來說以中央數來說到5月底我們是增加了比去年增加561億那中央數是增加485億比去年增加那以整體來看的話今年要達到我們的稅收的預算數應該是可以達到"},{"start":146.62,"end":162.992,"text":"對,可以大家知道可是還要到9月還有一個影鎖稅的一個站腳稅款進來那也跟委員報告影鎖稅在今年的稅收呢到5月底為止事實上是比去年少的是比去年少在影鎖稅的部分全國數是2923比去年少了400多億比去年少400多億因為112年的"},{"start":170.998,"end":174.142,"text":"上市貴公司的獲利情形事實上是不下滑的。"},{"start":187.105,"end":213.238,"text":"超徵大概兩千億,差不多當然,我想今年的預算數達成是沒有問題應該也會超過至於超過多少,我覺得要到下半年會比較明朗你剛剛講五月底,為止是五百多嘛那我就平均就一個月就一百多啊那九月份你要個佔繳款啊就這樣把你加起來啊,差不多一千五到兩千之間差不多這樣子嘛"},{"start":214.059,"end":217.44,"text":"所以你們更應該多一點錢給地方政府啦!好,我要講今天的題目喔!你們今天有一條要修這個所得稅法,有一條!"},{"start":239.4,"end":242.802,"text":"請我們副市長來說明"},{"start":265.564,"end":293.61,"text":"報告委員,這個條文是從以前就是這樣的規定,主要的原因各位有報告,我跟委員報告緣由之後,然後我們討論的時候,大家再來看看怎麼處理,它主要的原因是因為我們所有的政府機關,它的責任它有,譬如我們變預算,假設它被處罰,它還是要變預算,左口袋右口袋的問題,所以當時我們對政府機關的部分是用行政責任,簡單的講就是上級機關對下級機關,"},{"start":295.53,"end":295.91,"text":"其實秦安專案"},{"start":323.603,"end":325.168,"text":"這個是當初賴清德總統在選總統的時候"},{"start":328.752,"end":355.813,"text":"他提出了兩個矛盾的一個政策一個屯房稅2.0破圍壓力你看那時候我們在野黨提了十幾個版本財政部硬不同意不要不要不要結果賴清德一聲令下就推過了屯房稅2.0抑制炒房結果現在又推一個清安專案現在火熱得不得了到現在為止你看關谷的航空就帶出去了4700多億"},{"start":358.254,"end":380.339,"text":"主要是什麼?主要你看環管權限從30年到40年寬限期就是只有付利息不要付本金的3到5年這個剛剛幾個委員講我都覺得我馬上想到會不會投機啊你不管父母父母即便有五棟房子他可以用他小孩的名字佔滿一棟"},{"start":382.335,"end":392.138,"text":"再買一棟拿去做什麼事情都可能請問你啊清安貸款他買的房子以後能不能賣"},{"start":393.752,"end":397.935,"text":"秦安貸款他買了房子以後是可以移轉﹖可以移轉啊!住長你找房啊!囤房稅2.0他的目的是讓我們的房屋稅的持有稅合理化目的也是希望房屋不要空置而應該做有效利用同時我們進行生活規劃"},{"start":414.468,"end":419.793,"text":"但是他可以賣呀!他一樣可以賣呀!比如說這個爸爸已經有五棟房子了!你看到這個有氣可乘!他又用兒子的名字!"},{"start":437.709,"end":437.929,"text":"來,那個部長啊"},{"start":465.839,"end":488.23,"text":"我都擔心以後有撤房貸的危機喔他以後還款40年我都還不出來的這是另外一個問題喔委員我想齁其實清安貸款第一個拉長的貸款期限然後寬限期5年其實青年朋友們在買這個房子在寬限期裡面他如果有節於自己賺的錢比如說達到年終獎金他可以事先先去把一些本金還掉"},{"start":489.571,"end":494.452,"text":"以後他每個月要還3萬到6萬嗎?我覺得年輕人其實他也是有財務可以做規劃,他可以把自己年齡獎金先去還本金,並不是都這麼極致啊。你可以想喔,他未來一個月還3萬喔,還4萬喔,還5萬喔。"},{"start":512.077,"end":515.22,"text":"我比較擔心的是這裡面4700多位就是公家、航空還有民間的"},{"start":535.095,"end":535.235,"text":"你怎麼加強?"},{"start":553.915,"end":556.657,"text":"我們當然是有些太陽可以去做後續的追蹤"},{"start":572.95,"end":598.72,"text":"這是你回我的文有關你加熱菸我一直很在意這個然後你回情來了說台北關數量2687沒有電子載具高雄關、台中關、台北關都有加熱菸還有加熱菸的載具國庫署啊你們抓私菸抓私酒不抓加熱菸勒"},{"start":600.936,"end":608.691,"text":"有委員在總司庭就提到了因為加勒園氾濫天亮人everywhere都有人在抽加勒園立法院也是有人在抽"},{"start":611.674,"end":635.56,"text":"委員報告,加熱菸它要經過健康風險評估才可以販售跟製造,所以它在市面上是違反這個戒害防治法,那有什麼部會去做查詢?一件都沒有,因為衛福部的資料是一件都沒有,一件都沒有過,所以就跟電子菸一樣,它是違法的,違法的,那你們為什麼不抓?"},{"start":638.447,"end":650.958,"text":"他違反煙害防治法,那是衛福部他會去做查緝的不是,你們不是要抓,你們抓私煙抓私酒,加熱煙你們抓不抓?不抓?他是不是煙啊?我問你加熱煙是不是煙?"},{"start":654.389,"end":654.889,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":671.201,"end":673.663,"text":"所以各位看清楚了吉哈樂園現在還一堆房債"},{"start":693.044,"end":722.344,"text":"自由貿易港區裡面準備想進來他已經放半年了這個也是經過你們同意進來的他只是處放在那一邊但是他不能進來放了半年了放了半年了他是處放在那邊放了半年了為什麼放半年放那麼久呢是不是因為你們不抓然後現在人家委員總執行就講了我們現在的淹捐啊淹稅我們已經收了100億就是因為大家都愁加熱言你們抓不到你們也沒有認真去抓"},{"start":723.476,"end":744.969,"text":"我就是最後一句話,你這部分,你們去思考一下要不要去取締啊?要不要去抓啊?要不要?你們啊?呃,這個屬於陰害防治法的規範範圍,也跟委員報告在這個貿易港區的加熱菸,它其實還是不能進到我們關內這邊來,我們海關還是會管的。這地方都有抽啊!大關內在抽啊!梁文傑也抽,這個盤門岸也抽,不是嗎?"},{"start":745.709,"end":745.93,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":758.394,"end":758.594,"text":"賴主席"}]}},{"id":"154208","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154208","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd158c99b7278a00017a22d6087941f42bc8f090ddb9b7d6d693a001556f561b11a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:37:47 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09:49:02","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:37:47+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:49:02+08:00","duration":675,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":110,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時37分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請鄭部長跟體育署鄭署長。"],["主席：好，部長跟署長，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先請教一下鄭署長，廣大籃球迷很關心上禮拜的一個重磅消息，說我們有兩個籃球職業聯盟──一個T、一個P，現在王文祥董事長出來宣布說要成立新聯盟，但是有人講他這個新聯盟可能是另外一個聯盟或是第三聯盟，好像又不是T跟P的合併，而我們也看到籃協跳出來講話，說成立新聯盟或第三聯盟並不在規劃之中，讓很多球迷霧裡看花。請問署長，就主管機關體育署的瞭解，現在籃球職業運動整合的方向會變成大家比較期待的兩大聯盟變成一個聯盟，之後所有的球隊加入一個聯盟、共同比賽，還是有可能一樣有T和P，但是又要再成立另外第三個聯盟？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，原則上體育署的態度當然是尊重他們職業籃球的推廣。"],["洪委員孟楷：我有看到您發表是說祝福跟尊重。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。據我自己去詢問、瞭解，應該也不是T跟P的結盟、融合在一起，而是直接就一個新的聯盟，但是原來的T跟P可能就沒有了，所以就是這9隊加一個外國隊，成立一個全新的聯盟，當然……"],["洪委員孟楷：但我們怎麼又看到新聞報導T聯盟也跳出來講說不受影響，所以選秀還會持續進行……"],["鄭署長世忠：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣子本席不禁會好奇，或是說球迷會擔心，這樣會不會變成是一個比較惡性的競爭？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，因為第一個，籃協本身我詢問了，他們原則上是維持中立，他們只是不希望看到有三個聯盟同時存在，這部分新的聯盟王文祥董事長這邊據我所知，他們跟其他總共9隊的國內籃球隊目前正在規劃成立一個全新的聯盟，但是目前的資訊也只有這樣，他們是希望今年接下來幾個月賽季結束之後可以加快腳步去規劃。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以署長現在得到的資訊跟本席及所有球迷都一樣，也是看報紙才知道？"],["鄭署長世忠：這之間當然有他們的互相角力，但是這部分原則上我還是尊重他們自己的規劃。"],["洪委員孟楷：職業運動可能有商業考量，本席不否認，因為它牽扯的利益或是球迷的市場多寡、相互如何，這個本席尊重商業機制，但是我看棒球看了三十幾年，不免讓我想到，以前中華職棒和台灣大聯盟也曾經有過分裂，造成有10個球隊，但是變成兩邊的球迷數都萎縮，到最後還是合併成一個聯盟之後，才又慢慢地靠著國際賽的表現使球迷回流。所以，既然P聯盟已經4年、T聯盟已經3年，也養成了一些球迷，我想球迷是最無辜的，身為中央主管機關，不管你有沒有去做一個你說是尊重或祝福，但我們總是不希望到最後變成三個聯盟、變成紅海市場、惡性競爭，這樣對於球迷來講，第一，可能會感到失望，第二，球員的保障呢？因為球員才無辜啊！他可能今天幫這個球隊打比賽，明天這個球隊的聯盟就不見了，或是被併到其他的聯盟，球員的保障呢？我覺得這才是應該關注的重點。"],["鄭署長世忠：所以我在對外聲明也提醒，如果新的聯盟成立，第一個，球員的權益一定要顧到，也要持續跟職業工會這邊做良好的互動。我這邊還是有持續在瞭解、跟他們對話啦，希望……"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，我想你應該跟本席一樣，不樂見臺灣到時候變成是P、T，然後是三個聯盟，各自的球隊可能少少的，球迷也不知道到底要怎麼樣去為自己原本欣賞的球隊或是新的球隊加油。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我覺得他們也不會這樣做啦！因為在商言商，他們這樣做應該也不是這麼的妥適。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長有更積極的作為嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：我有在找他們個別談論當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：個別談論當中？體育署有沒有可能變成是一個「公親」的平台，把這些聯盟的相關負責人員找來？他們到底有沒有機會坐下來好好地談一談？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分的確是有，過去這個星期我有致電聯盟的這些執行長……"],["洪委員孟楷：你是說P聯盟、T聯盟你都有致電？"],["鄭署長世忠：他們也有個別打電話來告訴我目前的狀況，當時我是覺得可能還要給他們一點點時間，我再來召開一個平台來做對話。"],["洪委員孟楷：保障球員的權益、保障球迷的權利，讓整個籃球的市場變大，而不是惡性競爭，我想這是我們的重點，好不好？","來，部長，不好意思，今天討論的學生輔導法很重要，賴清德總統選前也承諾說要加強三級輔導，我想請教，行政院版本現在到底在哪邊？應該是已經送行政院了嘛？那什麼時候行政院版本能夠出來？就是我們教育部的版本。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們現在確實在努力把我們內部所規劃的報行政院，希望能夠排上明天的院會。"],["洪委員孟楷：明天的院會？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在是不是已經確認明天的院會就可以出來？"],["鄭部長英耀：確認！"],["洪委員孟楷：確定嘛！明天院會可以出來，所以我們也感謝召委今天來做這個排案，但是召委也從善如流，認為有院的版本，大家共同來討論，我想這樣也能夠比較聚焦。不過有關人數的部分，本席比較欣慰的是有看到你們今天的報告，本席提案修正的第十一條現在是55班以上才要設置輔導老師，你們也認為……"],["鄭部長英耀：外加……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，你們也認為可以有調整的空間嘛！因為103年學生輔導法三讀通過的時候，教育部曾經表示未來希望最終的目標是所有公私立高中以下的學校，每校都可以有專任的輔導教師，再依班級數來增置。換言之，當時通過學生輔導法其實是希望每校都有，只是有些大校可以多一點人力，而不是像現在這樣只依照班級數來分配。如果這樣的話，全國需要有八千多位的輔導教師，而現在我們的專任輔導教師只有三千多位，換言之還有五千多位的空間。我相信這次院版要提出來的時候一定也會針對預算員額及相關需求去做調整，請問預計這樣可以增加多少專任輔導教師？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們確實也朝委員剛才所提的方向，都納入我們這次修正的參考，怎麼樣按照學校的規模，又能夠考慮到區域上的特殊性，除了學校能夠增加專輔人員以外，區域也能夠從人口數到學校規模來考量增加專業的輔導老師，然後由地方來統籌運作，用來隨時支持學校更直接的、需要立即處理的問題或者是學生輔導的相關事宜。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你回答的其實說實在話，大家都清楚沒有回答到本席的問題啦！","我最後請教，你的預算員額如果增加的話，會不會造成地方財政的負擔？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們確實目前財政的負擔……"],["洪委員孟楷：教育部是不是應該要有支持？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們擔心它會排擠，所以在最佳、適度的希望能夠支持、維護學生的受教權益，提升教育品質，然後也考慮到地方的財政。以目前來講，我們大概大部分是由部裡面來編列這個經費，但怎麼樣考慮到地方的特殊性，就地方教育的輔導工作，地方也有一些責任……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我確認一下，如果我們現在修法而增加輔導老師的預算部分是由中央教育部這邊來支應，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，基本上目前我們是朝……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們會中央編列經費，不會增加地方的負擔？"],["鄭部長英耀：也跟委員報告，我們也擔心這樣在總體預算的編列上會排擠到其他一些既定政策的推動，所以怎麼樣找到適度的一個方式，確實我們現在一直在反覆做精算。"],["洪委員孟楷：不用精算，你明天都要通過院版了，然後你現在還跟我講說再精算，照理講，你現在早就已經知道你的答案是什麼了，不是嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們朝著委員所提的在降低目標……"],["洪委員孟楷：院版出來之後，我們在逐條的時候才會去針對你們編列的預算夠不夠，委員如果要再增加的話，有沒有這樣的一個額度，而不是你現在還在講說你還在精算，部長，對於你這樣的回答，坦白講，我覺得您還沒有到很深入瞭解。不過沒關係，我們之後逐條的時候再來，但本席只期待之後真的能補足相關輔導老師的人力，而且是專任，專任這一點非常重要，因為有太多的學校及老師跟本席反映，表示現在有多出很多無關諮詢服務專業的行政業務，也會變成是這些老師需要去負擔的。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上就這一點是朝委員的方向在努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以我們逐條的時候，請支持本席的版本，我們一定要求把專任給放上去，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們基本上是朝那個方向在修訂。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-17","speakers":["柯志恩","陳秀寳","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","張雅琳","羅智強","陳菁徽","葛如鈞","范雲","萬美玲","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳亭妃","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林憶君","王育敏","吳春城","林月琴"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人\n擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條\n文修正草案」案；四、審查委員李柏毅等 18 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員許智傑等25\n人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生\n輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正\n草案」案；九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審查\n委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具\n「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分\n條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員郭昱晴等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」\n案；十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員郭\n國文等 19 人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員郭國文等 19 人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條\n文修正草案」案；十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十、審查委員萬\n美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具\n「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案；二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條\n及第七條條文修正草案」案；二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正\n草案」案；二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十\n五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案；二十六、審查委員林\n月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案(僅進行詢答)","agenda_id":"1136601_00012"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.9290937500000003,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.20596875,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.53346875,"end":39.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.518468750000004,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.17721875000001,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.66659375,"end":97.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.37471875,"end":96.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.68659375,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.02409375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.11971875,"end":121.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.36659375,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.91409375,"end":128.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.43596875,"end":174.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.00409375,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":182.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.38284375,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.97284375,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.25721875000002,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.69534375,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.76284375,"end":274.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.22471875,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.02846875,"end":299.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.77471875000003,"end":289.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.53346875,"end":294.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.89971875000003,"end":305.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.77221875000004,"end":311.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.29034375000003,"end":319.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.47909375,"end":320.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.94721875000005,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.43221875,"end":329.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.55409375,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.36346875000004,"end":350.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.19971875000005,"end":355.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.63784375,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.90346875,"end":356.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.78096875,"end":367.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.95659375,"end":370.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.85846875000004,"end":398.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.49596875000003,"end":452.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.32284375,"end":400.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.28471875,"end":402.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.48346875000004,"end":466.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.85659375000006,"end":470.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.86034375,"end":470.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.87721875000005,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.41346875,"end":535.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.35221875,"end":536.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.58846875,"end":536.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.60534375,"end":536.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.7234687499999,"end":536.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.9765937500001,"end":572.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.9890937499999,"end":540.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.98846875,"end":542.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.9584687500001,"end":581.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.5434687500001,"end":582.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.74596875,"end":586.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.99471875,"end":583.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.45034375,"end":583.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.42909375,"end":585.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.53846875,"end":603.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.81846875,"end":603.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.9197187500001,"end":603.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.95346875,"end":613.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.69034375,"end":616.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.12909375,"end":61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這個核酸電力缺口不用擔心我們都有考慮進去就是這個是6月12號本席在經濟委員會質詢的時候你們部長所回答的當時部長說核酸停機的7%發電缺口未來預估就是加上AI每年3%用電成長的缺口都不用擔心真的不用擔心嗎你告訴我"},{"start":43.834,"end":54.222,"text":"跟委員報告河山一號機如果除以的話他差不多有是95萬千瓦那7月的話會有豐德3號加入有110萬9到時候會有大壇9號跟7號還有興達一號機上來那這個加起來有300萬總共有440幾萬所以那個以上的電量是不夠的那我先繼續問一下市長請問一下河山廠的一號機二號機總裝置容量是多少"},{"start":70.4,"end":71.442,"text":"和三場一號機跟二號機都是95萬"},{"start":74.517,"end":78.159,"text":"所以加起來是1902MW所以過去這段期間來本席在問經濟部和安會要不要考慮和三廠研議本席也多次以國外為例國外的核電廠使用週期都是60年以上是常態但你們一直說不考慮一直說有準備次長你剛剛告訴我的說"},{"start":102.39,"end":103.892,"text":"這個1900MW的缺口你們已經準備了但是你們準備的這幾個如果都能夠供應上的話為什麼還要賣了電廠?"},{"start":117.191,"end":120.972,"text":"跟委員報告河山廠的在7月27日下來之後我們是有豐德3號機會上來所以那個量是可以足夠cover的那為什麼還要賣電呢我覺得你們這些都是言不由衷敷衍的話我來幫你們說因為麥寮電廠的總發電量是多少123機各發電600MW總共1800MW是不是剛好cover你"},{"start":146.036,"end":146.096,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":167.193,"end":173.676,"text":"何山的部分只有1號機下來﹖所以是95﹖那8號機明年5月也要下來啦那我們還有另外的機組會上來哪什麼機組會上來我們先來看看讓全國人民看一下拿賣電抵何山臺電要多花多少錢就是依照臺電公佈4月的發電成本何能每一度電是1.12元"},{"start":193.445,"end":202.094,"text":"五十五億度電只要六十一點六億元但是如果用麥寮發電麥寮燃煤發電的話立刻暴增到一百六十八點三億增加了一百零七億元你有看有看嗎這是你最新四月的"},{"start":215.823,"end":231.257,"text":"對,報告委員最主要是因為河山下去是因為法規的規定我也想要聽聽次長講次長你知道這件事情除了多花107億之外還要犧牲雲林縣人的健康請問你清不清楚這個影響有多大我跟委員報告那個"},{"start":236.383,"end":237.024,"text":"沒有沒有沒有沒有這回事"},{"start":252.355,"end":256.118,"text":"你們一直告訴我說這個河山停機跟麥寮延長發電是因為什麼都無關都是因為合約的問題但是現在其實賣電給燃氣的這個計畫已經在進行了到底台電有沒有計畫跟這個這個賣電來購買天然氣的發電呢"},{"start":277.433,"end":277.674,"text":"現在麥寮天然氣的接收站環評都已經過了"},{"start":289.028,"end":293.252,"text":"我們基本上大家都是反對火力發電的你不能夠說你這個用電缺口你核電的用電缺口要用火力發電拼命燒用我們雲林彰化這些百姓的肺來發電這是完全不合理的"},{"start":308.428,"end":310.409,"text":"那而且麥良電廠當時也有對雲林縣人承諾說2025就不再燒煤你們應該好好研議怎麼樣加速讓核酸不用退役繼續研議而不是犧牲雲林人的健康那而且呢"},{"start":325.953,"end":338.867,"text":"中規一句話中規一句話這都是錯誤的能源政策所造成的放著一度電一塊的核能不要用去買昂貴的天然氣去用煤炭來發電市長我也知道你很無奈啊"},{"start":343.021,"end":349.667,"text":"你也什麼都做不了不要說你了我相信連部長都做不了主因為整個國家的能源政策都被民進黨的意識形態所綁架說真話的人受到批評還要被要求說不要說話我們的國發會主委我們的經濟部長上任之初整個社會都期待他們能夠扭轉內閣對核能的偏見結果呢"},{"start":369.986,"end":383.919,"text":"現在什麼都不敢說了當初說真話的人被民進黨批評變成被民進黨批評的對象國家的能源政策至此何其可悲受害的是國家受害的是全體人民啊你們同不同意"},{"start":387.262,"end":393.906,"text":"報告委員,能源的政策的選擇是各個都有它的優點跟缺點,核能部分的安全...你台電現在累積虧損多少錢你告訴我啊!你現在台電今年會不會累積虧損?是不是有沒有5000億的可能?"},{"start":406.243,"end":410.364,"text":"你現在累積3800億3850億你現在告訴我說有什麼優缺點你知道3年來政府已經撥補了你們4000億你還累積3850億你告訴我什麼優缺點法律的問題要先解決是啊那要想辦法去解決而不是把這些把賣店拿來補充啊拿來填補這個缺口啊你現在告訴我合約合約"},{"start":434.434,"end":437.997,"text":"這是兩件事我告訴你好好面對你這些虧損之後要怎麼辦謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154206","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154206","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd15d631a58fc6837bcc258fa09de8d0f308f090ddb9b7d6d6941d823e46ab58e485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:28:12 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09:39:41","影片長度":"00:11:29","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:28:12+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:39:41+08:00","duration":689,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":182,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時28分）謝謝主席。請連次長，還有台電的王總經理。"],["主席：我們再請連次長、台電王總經理。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，恭喜。在我質詢的同時，對面的行政院門口正有17個團體在陳情抗議，北、中、南都有喔！他們在抗議什麼？聯合反對麥寮電廠延役！我先唸一段他們的宣言，這些團體包括六輕污染傷害聯合求償自救會、雲林縣淺海養殖協會、南部反空污大聯盟、臺灣健康空氣行動聯盟等17個團體。他們怎麼說？他們說：「麥電續燒的每一塊煤炭，都是助長空污/氣候戰爭鋒火的殺人子彈。麥電延命，每多發一度煤電，就是在155公里的麥電污染影響圈內，無差別持續射殺奪命國人！」次長和總經理，我問一下，你們知道全臺灣第二大污染源是哪裡？"],["王總經理耀庭：麥寮這邊的電廠滿多的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以5月的時候1號機應該要關閉啊！結果讓這個污染源又繼續了。我們再看下一張，昨天環境部也公布了一個資料，就是我們的碳排不只沒有降，反而是增加的，一個嚴重問題就是我們的煤還繼續在燒。裡面還提到我們國家2020年總溫室氣體排放量不只沒有達到2020年的2%管制目標，溫室氣體最大宗就是二氧化碳，後面有一句最重要的話就是，二氧化碳排放量和2005年相比，不只沒有降，還增加了2.55%。全臺灣第二大污染源，你們讓它繼續，本來在5月底要停的，結果你不停，甚至還繼續讓它燒，然後連環境部都在提醒你了，二氧化碳要繼續這樣排放下去嗎？","我再問你幾個問題，現在在我們對面行政院的這些團體要求一個東西，那就是你的黑箱合約能不能公布？現在和麥寮電廠的合約能不能公布給大家看？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，整個商業行為必須要談誠信的問題，整個合約的穩定性跟可預見性也必須要維持，這個合約是25年的合約。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！"],["王總經理耀庭：這25年的合約裡面，電廠建置的固定成本必須要能夠讓它回收，所以這個部分我們必須要照這個合約走。"],["張委員啓楷：總經理，有兩個重點很重要，台電跟麥寮電廠買電用的是我們人民的納稅錢，你是國營事業，這本來就要公開嘛！對不對？要對人民負責啊！所以立法院才會這樣要求你，民脂民膏，本來就是要公開嘛！第二，這攸關到人民的健康啊！全民這麼關注，這個合約為什麼不能公開？可以公開嗎？這合約有什麼見不得人的地方？有嗎？有任何見不得人的地方嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：沒有見不得人的地方。"],["張委員啓楷：所以能夠公開嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們回去研究一下，好不好？就法的部分我們研究一下。"],["張委員啓楷：不是啊，有什麼見不得人的地方？為什麼不能公開？之前就是25年對不對？現在又突然延了一年多，到底怎麼訂的？這裡面大家很清楚了嘛！時間就是到5月底，1號機就是要停啊！你基於什麼理由？你現在說的理由就是可能之前有些地方還沒有發電完成，對不對？"],["王總經理耀庭：就是固定投資成本。"],["張委員啓楷：可是合約裡面看的時間點就是5月底，1號機就要停啊！但是你該停的不停，又不把合約公布，所以人民就抗議啊！是不是這樣？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為這個是2015年的時候主管機關有做一個生煤減量28%和22%的部分，這個部分牽涉到麥寮電廠的固定投資成本回收，所以我們在新的合約，這一年半目的就是讓它……"],["張委員啓楷：總經理，你看到的是麥寮的問題，但有沒有看到人民的問題？我剛剛給你看的是什麼？第二大污染源，連環境部都在提醒你了，犧牲的是人民的健康跟生命喔！兩權之間到底是人民比較重要，還是麥寮電廠比較重要？你可能還要再想一下。","第二個我再問你，所以你何時可以確定合約可以攤出來給全民看？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們儘快回去研究以後再……"],["張委員啓楷：你下午下班前給我答復好不好？現在人民跟團體還在那邊曬著大太陽等你的答案，好不好？今天下班前，五點之前好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你不是回去研究嘛，五點之前給我，可以公開吧？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們回去研究，是。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？五點之前你要給我答復。","再來，現在雲林縣不是沒有通過燃煤的許可證明嗎？縣政府都還沒通過，你怎麼可以就去延長合約呢？這個有沒有違法？你有辦法運作嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：這個部分必須在合法的狀況之下才……"],["張委員啓楷：那你就不合法啊！是不是？總經理，縣政府沒有給你燃煤許可證明，你怎麼可以去簽一個再延長一年半的合約？這違法欸！次長，台電是不是違法？"],["王總經理耀庭：台電不會違法做這個事情。"],["連次長錦漳：這個是依法律規定來做啦！"],["張委員啓楷：我們針對問題啊！請針對問題回答問題，縣政府沒有通過燃煤許可證明，台電可以延長合約嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：我們的合約裡面有這個規定，就是必須在合法的狀況之下才能執行合約。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！那你就不合法啊！縣政府沒給許可證，你要怎麼合法？所以你就違法了，就違法啦！"],["連次長錦漳：沒有啦！"],["王總經理耀庭：還沒違法。"],["張委員啓楷：你沒有許可證，怎麼不違法？你就是違反這一條啊！"],["連次長錦漳：合約上有規定它要取得燃煤許可證才可以運作……"],["張委員啓楷：先後順序……"],["連次長錦漳：現在是在配套情況下進行，沒有違法……"],["張委員啓楷：次長和總經理，你們先後順序不要弄亂好不好？它要先到縣政府拿到燃煤許可證，你才能夠去簽約啊！結果你們不是，合約已經簽下去了，你先後順序弄亂了吧？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為合約裡面有這一條條文，就是說它必須是合法的才能執行。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！所以你的意思就是你現在的約還不合法，還不算是合法合約是不是？是這樣嗎？現在還不是合法的合約嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：應該是說這個生煤許可它必須自己去拿到，它拿到以後才能夠根據這個來執行合約，合約上是這樣定，所以有沒有拿到這個許可證明、這個可能要麥寮那邊……"],["張委員啓楷：所以麥寮電廠不要說未來或者是一年半，如果它一輩子都沒有拿到雲林縣的燃煤許可證，這個合約就無效了，它不能燒喔，是不是這樣？"],["王總經理耀庭：必須在合法的狀況之下執行……"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，是不是這樣？你回答我，它如果沒拿到，不要說延長一年半，而是它一輩子都不能再燒，是不是這樣？"],["王總經理耀庭：它要有許可證明才能夠燒。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！所以白話文就是，它沒有拿到就不能燒嘛！第三，我問你一個很重要的事情，這是我們的國家政策，次長和總經理都知道，我們國家的政策就是要減少煤、要轉型對不對？結果你卻決定繼續燒煤、這麼嚴重的一個污染。"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，整體煤的用量是一直在持續下降的。"],["張委員啓楷：持續下降，所以這邊增加一些沒有關係嗎？所以麥寮這邊增加沒有關係嗎？這不是矛盾嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：整體是下降的。"],["張委員啓楷：我同意你整體下降，那為什麼那邊的量突然要高起來？再加上去不就又高起來嗎？再想一想好不好？我上個禮拜站在這個位置問了郭部長，他自己一直說你們沒有缺電，對不對？你們都強調自己沒有缺電，卻又打自己的嘴巴，這是你的政策、國家的政策，也是經濟部、台電的政策，你的燃煤是要減少的，你自己打嘴巴，還讓麥寮可以再增加。所以我明確要求郭部長，你如果確定、你信心滿滿一直在講沒有缺電，你就不要去危害人民的健康，危害人民的安全、生命啊！我就要求他說，你如果沒有缺電的話，麥寮電廠就把它停掉啊！我上禮拜不是這樣講？他說回去再好好看一下。"],["王總經理耀庭：這是兩件事啦，因為我們的合約執行必須是穩定跟可預見性，否則其他IPP採購的時候，他們會擔心未來它的25年合約是不是會有問題？"],["張委員啓楷：合約裡面有很重要的事情，我剛剛就在提醒你，合約裡面你看到的到底是麥寮的利益，還是人民的利益？人民這邊是健康跟安全，哪一個重、哪一個輕？總經理、次長和經濟部要好好想這個問題，好不好？這是第一個問題。","現在更嚴重的是什麼？你一直在講合約，合約你看到的是以前發電量還沒有發完的你要讓它發完，一般的人民看到的是什麼？合約時間真的到了啊！裡面有發生了某些變動，或者可能是縣政府或人民說你不要燒那麼多煤，你某些額度沒有達到，可是合約裡面最重要的點是什麼？今年5月應該要停止了。合約要看重點嘛，對不對？你看到的重點為什麼跟人民都不一樣呢？"],["王總經理耀庭：不是，因為它有遇到一些不可抗力因素，在合約執行上面，商業合約都有訂定不可抗力因素……"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！你看到部分，我說你還有更重要的──人民的健康和生命安全嘛，好不好？還有你自己國家的政策，你就是要讓煤炭減少的，好不好？我再重複上個禮拜講的話，我也問過郭部長，你不要自己有衝突了，你自己都強調沒有缺電，結果你又要去燒煤，要去影響、傷害到人民的健康與安全，這是很大的問題，好不好？再想一下，如果真的不缺電，就趕快停下來，第一個，剛剛講到本來縣政府沒有核發給它燃煤許可證，它根本就沒辦法動啊，這是一個，所以這個合約目前看起來還不見得可以執行，對不對？第二個，今天五點鐘下班之前，我是希望你合約就是公開啦，要不然的話，人民就會一直罵你是黑箱，好不好？五點之前我等你的答復。好好想一想，以人民蒼生為念，人在公門好修行，先顧人民的健康跟生命安全，不是只有一直在看財團或者麥寮電廠的利益好不好？共同努力，謝謝！"],["主席：接下來我們請張嘉郡委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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來你再看張啊環境部也公布了一個資料他說啊我們的碳排不只沒有降反而是增加的一個嚴重問題就是我們的煤還繼續在燒他如果在說中了我們國家2020年總溫室的氣體排放量不只沒有達到2020年的2%管制的目標喔裡面最重要的後面要顧的溫室氣體的最大中心是二氧化碳嘛"},{"start":145.899,"end":147.08,"text":"現在在對面的行政院的團體要求一個東西"},{"start":174.775,"end":185.143,"text":"你的黑箱合約合約能不能公布你現在叫賣寮電廠的合約能不能公布給大家看"},{"start":187.076,"end":214.305,"text":"跟委員報告齁其實整個商業行為必須要談誠信問題啦齁那整個合約的穩定性跟可預見性也必須要維持齁所以我這個合約是25年的合約那這25年的合約裡面這個電廠建制的那個固定成本必須要能夠讓它回收所以這個部分我們必須要照這個合約去做你白天去買電你去跟賣掉電廠買電用的是我們人民的納稅錢嘛你是國營事業嘛這本來就要公開嘛對不對"},{"start":216.938,"end":227.251,"text":"對人民負責啊所以行立法院才會這樣要求你民恥民膏本來就是要公開嘛但是又關到人民的健康啊全民這麼關注啊這個合約為什麼不能公開"},{"start":228.479,"end":245.557,"text":"可以公開嗎?這合約沒有,這合約有什麼見不得人的地方?有嗎?有任何見不得人的地方嗎?沒有見不得人的地方。所以這樣公開唄?我們回去研究一下好不好,就是法的部分我們研究一下。不是啊,你有什麼見不得人的地方為什麼不能公開?你進行的就是5年對不對?你現在兇兇,你還演年華。"},{"start":249.005,"end":267.287,"text":"到底怎麼定的?這裡面大家很清楚了嘛你時間就是到5月底1號機就在停啊那你記憶什麼理由?你現在講的理由就是說可能你的那個之前有些地方那個還沒有發電完成對不對?可是你合約裡面看的時間點就是5月底啊1號機在停啊那你該停的不停"},{"start":268.388,"end":297.64,"text":"那你又不把合約公布啊人民就抗議啊是不是這樣因為這個是2015年的時候齁主管機關有做一個分媒深媒減量28個22%的這個部分啊這個部分牽涉到他麥寮電廠他的固定投資成本回收的這個部分所以我們在新的合約這一年半目的就是讓他把他所以你看到你看到的是麥寮的問題有沒有看到人民的問題你繼續燒剛我剛剛可以看的是什麼第二大污染源"},{"start":298.7,"end":302.892,"text":"年環境部都在提醒你了犧牲的是人民的健康跟生命喔"},{"start":304.816,"end":330.977,"text":"兩錢之間到底是人民比較重要還是麥寮電廠比較重要?你可能要再想一下。最後再問你。所以你當時可以看到你合約能夠談出來給全民?全民看。我們盡快回去研究以後再回覆。你下午下半前給我答案好不好?現在人民跟團體還在那邊曬著大太陽在等你的答案好不好?今天下班前我這樣進行好不好?你不是回去研究嗎?五點之前給我,可以公開吧?"},{"start":331.806,"end":331.826,"text":"總經理"},{"start":358.749,"end":369.782,"text":"管政府不給你這個展面許可證明你怎麼可以去簽一個延長一年半這違法欸 這台電是不是違法 欸經濟部 市長沒有 台電不會違法做這個事沒有 我們針對問題啊 沒有沒有沒有針對問題 回答問題"},{"start":376.35,"end":382.712,"text":"現政府沒有通過燃煤稀可證明,臺電可以繼續延長合約嗎?對啊,你就沒合法,管政府沒理由合法,所以你就違法了捏。就違法了喔。"},{"start":394.861,"end":395.281,"text":"還沒違法還沒違法"},{"start":412.259,"end":412.539,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":439.071,"end":444.595,"text":"所以賣了電廠啦不要說未來或者是一年半他一輩子都沒有拿到婚姻關的這個燃煤許可證這個合約就無效了他不能燒喔是不是這樣"},{"start":460.1,"end":463.183,"text":"這是我們國家政策阿!市府一定會怕喔!總經理應該都知道阿!我們的國家的政策"},{"start":486.024,"end":513.343,"text":"就是要減少煤的勒?要轉型對不對?結果你去做了一個繼續燒煤的而且這麼嚴重的一個污染報告委員整體的煤的用量是一直在持續下降的喔持續下降啊今天這邊加一點沒關係喔所以賣兩這邊增加沒有關係嗎?這不是矛盾嗎?整體是下降的齁整體下降我可以同意你整體下降那你為什麼那邊突然要高起來?這經濟不就又高起來嗎?"},{"start":516.035,"end":537.603,"text":"好不好?再想一想我上個禮拜站在這個位置我問了郭部長我會講一直在講你自己一直在講你沒缺電阿對不對?你把槍都自己沒有缺電阿你又打自己的嘴巴這是你的政策欸國家的政策也是經濟部也是台電的政策你的燃煤燒煤是要減少的你自己打嘴巴你才讓賣料可以再增加"},{"start":539.133,"end":568.622,"text":"所以我明確的要求了郭部長你若確定你自欺滿滿一直在講你沒有缺電你就不要去危害人民的健康危害人民的安全啊生命啊所以我就要求你說你若我沒有缺電的話你慢點去把它停掉喔我聽你不是這樣說他說回去好好看一下電這是兩件事啦因為我們必須讓合約執行是必須是穩定跟可預見性否則其他的IPP我採購的時候會有他們一些擔心說未來他的25年合約是不是會有問題那合約裡面有那個重要的事情啦"},{"start":569.883,"end":595.3,"text":"我剛剛就在提醒你合約裡面你看到的到底是賣了的利益還是人民的利益人民這邊是健康跟安全哪一個重哪一個輕總經理跟經濟部次長還有經濟部要好好想這個問題好不好這是第一個問題那現在更嚴重什麼你一直在講合約合約你看到的是說這個以前沒有發電量還沒有發完你要讓他發完一般的人民看到是什麼你合約時間就這麼久啊"},{"start":598.052,"end":606.493,"text":"裡面有發生了某些變動,或者你說可能是憲政或人民說你不要燒那麼多煤你某些額度沒有達到,可是最重要的是什麼?合約裡面最重要的點是什麼?"},{"start":607.639,"end":608.499,"text":"我再重複上個禮拜講的話"},{"start":631.909,"end":659.247,"text":"我也問了郭部長你不要自己有衝突了你們自己在強調沒有缺電結果你又要去燒煤要去影響到傷害到人民的健康安全這是很大的問題好不好再想一下如果真的不缺電趕快去停下來第一個剛剛講的他本來縣政府沒有合法給他燃煤的許可證他根本就沒辦法動啊這是一個所以這個合約目前看起來還不見得可以執行對不對?但是你今天下班進行5點進行"},{"start":661.118,"end":661.138,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154203","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154203","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1a7a50283a1078174309e96bb535257178f090ddb9b7d6d69c47a71c4ccfca2305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:27:37 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21 人擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條、第五條及第五條之一條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等25人、委員賴士葆等21人、台灣民眾黨黨\n團、委員羅智強等24人分別擬具「國軍老舊眷村改建條例第三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.075968750000001,"end":10.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.814093750000001,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.92659375000001,"end":132.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.12409375000001,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.01284375,"end":199.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.09721875000002,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.32034375,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":206.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.53846875000002,"end":212.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.80409375000002,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.71534375000002,"end":211.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.19596875000002,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.56221875000003,"end":218.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.54096875000002,"end":231.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":238.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.45346875,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.06784375,"end":279.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.71721875000003,"end":296.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.33471875000004,"end":350.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.45721875000004,"end":350.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.62596875,"end":362.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.15159375,"end":378.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.68909375000004,"end":383.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.30846875000003,"end":397.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.33596875,"end":406.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.72721875,"end":405.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.44846875,"end":414.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.13909375000003,"end":443.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.96159375,"end":446.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.58159375,"end":451.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.31909375000004,"end":456.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.65159375,"end":490.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.45721875000004,"end":460.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.72659375,"end":463.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.09346875000006,"end":525.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.9740937500001,"end":574.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.22284375,"end":527.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.52159375,"end":532.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.20284375,"end":621.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.6215937500001,"end":631.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.2947187500001,"end":634.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.76284375,"end":638.6484687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":1.45,"text":"謝謝主席。有請顧部長。請顧部長。羅遠豪"},{"start":11.011,"end":11.131,"text":"委員王鴻薇"},{"start":31.252,"end":41.298,"text":"三、審查本院委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委"},{"start":48.963,"end":53.749,"text":"所以國防部才在2021年的時候推動這個全動數的這個改組而且在2022年的時候後備軍人叫招的這個訓練我們有更新了這個計畫到目前為止我們已經試辦了兩年然後在明年會正式來上路"},{"start":67.325,"end":83.614,"text":"我記得之前我有看到一份報導也就是在這個新制剛開始的時候那時候被認為是有史以來最硬的這個教召那教召第一批的這個教召員曾經受過一些媒體的這個訪問那我列出幾個例子可能要待會兒可能要麻煩國防部長來回答一下因為他就說像過去的話我們就職的教召都是在營區裡面"},{"start":95.72,"end":105.631,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":111.477,"end":113.879,"text":"二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2二、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2"},{"start":134.318,"end":154.553,"text":"槍、榴彈都沒有打過。這是新制的時候,這是第一批的時候。有一位教召員B呢,他就說他那時候是擔任船令兵,作為來講他是要練習背上這個所謂拐拐無限電機,可是他在教召訓練14天裡面,一次都沒有背過。"},{"start":155.273,"end":179.193,"text":"那有個教召員C呢他說他在教召編輯裡面他是被分配為營級的這個情報士官工作應該是幫助長光收集各種地方情報協助指揮判斷戰況可是他跟其他的教召員一樣只接受步槍兵的訓練沒有人協助他複習情報士官、情搜相關專業的訓練"},{"start":180.954,"end":206.519,"text":"所以是不是說這是在這個新制DP的這個教召員他們所提出來的這些意見那兩年過去了失敗了兩年對於這些剛剛我所提到的ABC教召員所提到這個問題我們有在做改進嗎?看起來我們的訓練內容是非常的不矜持跟委員報告委員指教的我認為我有也有"},{"start":208.661,"end":228.934,"text":"相當的認同就是說我們後備軍人的這個訓練因為從我們過去我們今年才開始實施一年期的EWE的從4個月才到一年期的EWE那後備軍人的這個訓練的這個部分如何讓他訓練能夠扎實然後能夠"},{"start":232.202,"end":244.675,"text":"有效的形成站立,這個部分是我們的一個非常重大的一個挑戰。那不但只是訓練部分,那還有裝備等等。那現在我想我們會從基層幹部來"},{"start":250.151,"end":278.303,"text":"就是說他有一個後備戰略形成他要有一定人數的基層幹部那這個基層幹部的這個能力呢要把他變成是一個志願役然後他來帶領這些役這些過去的軍事訓練役的這個人那這樣子才能夠形成一個有效的戰力那所以從基層幹部能力的補時這一點就開始要做起那訓練的這一個部分呢確實我想從一開始"},{"start":279.944,"end":296.269,"text":"展開這個新式的教召確實還是有一些問題存在,但是我們不斷地去改進這個新式教召的這個內容,那將這個新式教召的內容把它從這個也就是說讓它"},{"start":297.429,"end":312.675,"text":"不管是在實彈的這個射擊上面還有各種的這個核武實彈化訓練要求的射擊的姿勢姿態然後戰鬥的這個射擊方式那一直到這個野外"},{"start":313.655,"end":335.72,"text":"來素飲等等,我們現在不斷地在加強,所以訓練的這個強度會逐漸來加強。也就是說,總的來講,那另外我們裝備也要到位,裝備也要到位。所以我們從基層幹部的捕食,然後教召的這個強度加強,那一直到我們現在建軍的這個裡面將這個"},{"start":339.021,"end":361.853,"text":"這個後備軍人的裝備也列為優先的建軍內容項目之一。希望透過這三個部分,我們希望能夠來形成一個有戰鬥力的後備部隊。這是我們現在國防部屬於一個重要的政策項目。"},{"start":362.273,"end":376.465,"text":"是,部長剛剛你提到這個裝備,不單裝備還有武器,像過去我們在叫招的時候,我們是單位之間互相借用這個武器跟裝備,也就是說我們後備單位是沒有自己的武器跟裝備,這情況有改善嗎?請問。裝備現在的籌貨,列為我們現在這個"},{"start":384.383,"end":398.326,"text":"三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等2三、審查本院委員黃仁等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、"},{"start":413.653,"end":414.364,"text":"可以改進的空間。"},{"start":415.185,"end":439.512,"text":"OK 好 謝謝部長所以我們現在就要找我們所採取的就是就地動員、就地編制、就地訓練、就地守備的這個方式那這部分我們當然是非常的這個肯定那當然我們動員署其中成立最主要有一個很重要的這個目標就是長後合一那我們有做到長後合一嗎我們的長輩軍人跟後輩軍人我們有曾經有過協同作戰的這個演習嗎 有嗎 請問"},{"start":444.173,"end":449.515,"text":"這是我們的目標之一,我們有做到嗎?就是在漢光的時候我們有納入,那平常訓練的時候、平常教招的時候是沒有的嗎?"},{"start":456.704,"end":477.511,"text":"平常叫召的時候剛剛您講的就是我們現在拉到那個現地去那讓他去熟悉這戰場的環境然後讓他了解然後來進行他熟悉他的戰鬥位置那這樣子的方式來進行至少就叫召了十四天是沒有辦法"},{"start":478.231,"end":490.293,"text":"就跟像漢光演習這樣子來進行但我們就會到他的現地的位置讓他去熟悉他應該要有的守備位置這樣子"},{"start":491.275,"end":511.89,"text":"市長,我有給一個建議,像新加坡,其實新加坡跟台灣非常的這個類似,它也有戰備軍人的這個回訊。那之前我有看過這個韓剛明少將他有提到就是說,像新加坡他一樣也是14天的這個,他們叫回訊,我們叫叫招,他們叫回訊,他們說這些叫招員呢,"},{"start":512.23,"end":521.193,"text":"委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員王鴻薇"},{"start":526.335,"end":550.612,"text":"跟委員報告新加坡這個部分我跟新加坡相關的人已經有談過好多次了他們最重要的就是說他們18歲當兵的時候他們把他形成一組的人力之後他們就會從中拔走那個幹部然後從中拔走幹部之後他們就這一組會用一個他們自己的一個比如說LINE或者是一個社群的平台來聯絡"},{"start":551.753,"end":569.346,"text":"那所以他們會隨時可以進行動員然後這一些小組的幹部就會通知這些人馬上去報導他有時候光報導但是不實施教召有時候報導以後把衣服穿好然後就回家有時候是報導以後再加實驗的訓練他用各種的方式來進行這樣的動員演練這確實是值得我們學習的地方"},{"start":574.549,"end":601.016,"text":"因為我有看過他相關的這個報導我是覺得確實部長您所講的他的新加坡經驗真的是很值得我們去學習像他也擔心馬來西亞他也擔心印尼他周邊也有很多的這個強國所以他們的全民的這方面的這個意識這防疫的意識其實是非常強的這國家意識也是非常的強而且他們這個在教招的時候不是單純就只有自己在"},{"start":602.397,"end":629.759,"text":"在做這個所謂訓練,就是教召員的訓練,他們可能還會結合民間。好像全國都有這樣子的一個想法,就是保家衛國的這個想法。我在想說這個部分,新加坡經驗很值得我們去了解跟學習。好,那時間到了以上,謝謝。是,謝謝蚊子,我們,因為新加坡它地方比較小啦,這一點,但是我們要學習它的這個方法論是應該的,是。"},{"start":635.89,"end":638.12,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢。"}]}},{"id":"154202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154202","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1c8c7d8739364381808df44dd9bf560a28f090ddb9b7d6d6956f6ed70b2e814a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:27:32 - 09:38:31","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:27:32+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:38:31+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時27分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早。延續剛剛那個話題，中華民國臺灣的不動產是採登記主義、公示公信原則。如果你要用青安貸款，一定是自己、配偶或是子女40歲以下然後沒有房子，才可以適用青安貸款。譬如這個年輕人35歲，他的爸爸媽媽有沒有房子，這是另外一件事；這個年輕人本身跟他的配偶以及他的子女不能夠有房子，這樣可以適用青安。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，他的未成年子女……"],["吳委員秉叡：青安是購買房屋的房屋貸款，所以購買房屋的登記人符合這個條件才能夠借款給他。基本上，不存在年輕人符合青安，買房子登記在爸爸、媽媽名下的狀況，不可以啦！因為這樣的話就不符合青安的規定。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，青安貸款就是他本人還有配偶及未成年子女名下都沒有房子，他才能夠適用青安貸款。"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有錯，我們是先釐清前提。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在會發生爭議的是同財共居。假設有一個年輕人22歲，他本身沒有要買房子，但是他爸爸媽媽想為他買房子，所以就用青安幫他買一戶，那個年輕人符合青安的條件，但是買來以後實質的控制權在爸爸媽媽名下，爸爸媽媽把這個房子拿去租給別人，因為這個年輕人有可能22歲，還住在原來自己爸爸媽媽的房子裡面，跟爸爸媽媽一起住，所以爸爸媽媽用他的名義，借用青安貸款去買房子，當然是買這個年輕人的名字，但是他把它租給別人。"],["莊部長翠雲：這樣就不符合青安貸款，因為有出租。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在有在講，如果查到之後，青安貸款的利息補貼要收回。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以想要請你們瞭解像這樣的案例是不是很多。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分公股行庫已經在做清理了，對於高風險的案件，我們會逐步去瞭解，像這種情況其實他有出租，就不符合青安貸款，因為青安貸款是希望年輕人買了以後自住使用。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啦，但是這個中間的確會存在爭議啦！我舉一個例子，我二十二歲大學畢業買房子本來準備要自住，假設在新莊我買了一戶房子，結果後來在新竹台積電找到工作，那我不可能住新莊然後到台積電上班，所以我可能跑到新竹市或新竹縣去租一戶房子，但是我原來用青安貸款買了一戶房子怎麼辦呢？空在那邊嗎？這個的確會有爭議，你就這個案例來想。如果說非要自己住不可，那你這個配套要更完整、要有更多其他的想法。我們現在因為房價高漲，政府宣示要打炒房，所以就有很多人，有道理也好，沒道理也好，都歸咎到房地產上面來。","而且在我來看，我也替年輕人覺得很惋惜，現在因為青安貸款補助有限，所以大臺北地區的房子就越蓋越小間了，現在都蓋那種十幾坪的，扣掉公設，房子就跟套房一樣，其實那個居住的空間真的已經比上一代的爸爸媽媽、更上一代的阿公阿嬤的空間小很多了，有時候覺得這個坪數的房子怎麼住人啊？將來年輕人也會想要成家，如果娶了太太，生了一個或兩個小寶貝，那一間房子真的是不夠住，當然這是另外的話。","但是就是因為有這個補貼，再加上央行那個豪宅的政策、金額多少以上的房子貸款成數下降等等，還要為了銷售的方便，所以建設公司房子越蓋越小間，每一間的坪數都很小，某一個角度也是為了配合政府的政策，為了配合青安，因為青安能夠補貼的金額就是這樣，除了一部分自備款之外，其他的貸款要適用青安，所以房子的總價就設計成一千出頭萬，在大臺北地區，臺北市當然不太可能，新北市像我那個地方，房子大概就是十幾、二十坪。"],["莊部長翠雲：確實，房地產的價格如果高的話，在年輕人現在的收入可以負擔的情況下，他就會買小坪數的房子，大概是這樣的情況。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實這裡面有很多的問題，現在年輕人就算要用青安貸款買房子，通常前面的自備款，家長如果有能力也會給予幫忙。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，家長多少會給，有可能的話。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是這個就會引發出世代的……網友講得最難聽的就是會投胎的好命啊！就爸爸媽媽可以給的幫忙很大，所以他很年輕就能買房子，如果本身家境沒有那麼好的，他要買房子就變得比較困難，在比較的心理之下，就會變成大家心理的不平衡，也是會引發社會問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以有關房屋或者住宅的部分，政府其實是多管齊下，比如興建社會住宅或者採取包租代管，還有公益出租人的出租方式，那都是用租的方式，當然用買的方式，……"],["吳委員秉叡：你有沒有想過……"],["莊部長翠雲：政府就幫他一把，在付息的過程中給予幫助。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，你有沒有想過臺灣跟日本比起來，一樣是東亞國家的年輕人，日本人租屋比例之高，臺灣人自有住宅、要買房子的比例這麼高，你有沒有覺得這兩者中間的差異是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：可能我們一直有「有土斯有財」這樣的一個觀念吧。"],["吳委員秉叡：那你有沒有統計過臺灣自有住宅的比例高達多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：蠻高的，數字我不太記得，但是……"],["吳委員秉叡：70%以上快要80%。"],["莊部長翠雲：差不多有這樣一個數字，因為大家覺得有自有住宅可能比較好。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以要講清楚喔！這個立場要講清楚，是打炒房，不是打房喔！因為你如果打房，將近80%的國人有自有住宅。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以其實政府的政策是在打炒房，就是不能做投機的行為，並不是在打房，因為房屋市場是健康依序的發展，不是要去打垮它。"],["吳委員秉叡：我講一個開玩笑的，以下這個有點小開玩笑，但是也是事實，全世界打房最成功的政權是哪裡，你知道嗎？中國，中國共產黨在中國打房，結果房價腰斬一半還沒人要。所以經濟的發展，從健康的角度來看，本來就會伴隨著一點點的物價膨脹，我以前在這裡說過，每年的CPI如果是2%，是世界總體經濟學家認為最好的，超過3%不要，因為那是通貨膨脹，低於1%也不要，因為會通貨緊縮，現在中國就面臨通貨緊縮的問題，通貨緊縮比通貨膨脹更可怕，為什麼？因為通貨膨脹是我現在不趕快去消費，明天、後天、明年、後年物價越來越高，我怕我買不起，現在臺灣有一點點這樣的預期心理。可是通貨緊縮更可怕，就是我要忍住不消費，因為我越晚消費越便宜，所以整個消費會急速地down下來，down下來之後，更惡性循環，我今天買一百塊的，下個禮拜會變成九十九塊，下個月會變成九十八塊，到了年底只剩九十五塊，明年剩九十塊，那我是不是就儘量忍？我越晚消費就賺越多，所以通貨緊縮會帶來整個經濟的窒息，中國現在就是這樣的狀況。你有沒有看到他們的稅很可怕，中國的稅，中央、地方今年度到5月減了5.91%，換算成人民幣就少收了二點多兆的稅金。當然中國的經濟量體非常的大，但是你想想看，這樣前面五個月就減收這樣，算起來今年整個有可能減掉將近十兆的稅金，那是非常非常驚人的數字，如果這個問題不趕快解決，過兩年它的經濟真的可能會崩潰。再加上它現在面臨的國際上面的制裁壓力，美國、歐盟對於它支持俄羅斯去侵略烏克蘭，都要對它動手，所以坦白講，我很看不好，它要渡過硬著陸都很有問題。所以我的意思是處理這些事情都是要很小心的，要一環一環，而且觀念要正確。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：有人看到CPI說怎麼會物價上漲，就隨便扣帽子說什麼物價在漲然後工資都不漲，明明工資就有漲，他看不見，是工資漲的速度有的時候超過通貨膨脹，有的時候不如通貨膨脹一點點，這幾年也才發生過一次。所以要有正確的觀念，而不要為了要達到什麼樣的結論，就去引用片面的資料、片面的數字，這樣我認為都是不好的，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：大家加油！謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。","接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅\n法部分條文修正草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1136501_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.8997187500000003,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.992218750000001,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.910968750000002,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.66971875,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.88471875,"end":20.247218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.58034375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.63471875,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.96784375,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.735343750000002,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.844718750000002,"end":32.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.13971875,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.04659375,"end":36.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.35846875,"end":38.235968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.860343750000006,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.087843750000005,"end":49.727843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.41971875,"end":54.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.094093750000006,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.15284375,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.04221875,"end":63.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.07159375,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.50159375,"end":67.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.39159375,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.29409375,"end":71.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.81284375,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.97721875,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.79971875000001,"end":82.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.25846875,"end":93.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.52846875,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.13096875000001,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.22784375,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.41284375000001,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.61034375000001,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.85346875,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.79909375,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.02659375000002,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.33846875,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.05971875,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.65346875,"end":148.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.03284375,"end":151.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.48409375,"end":165.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.97971875000002,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.48096875000002,"end":179.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.93534375000002,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.64784375000002,"end":192.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.27096875,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.14784375000002,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.86034375000003,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.22721875000002,"end":203.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.92721875,"end":206.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.81721875000002,"end":207.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.91409375,"end":209.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.51721875,"end":210.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.13721875000002,"end":212.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.97659375,"end":216.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.94221875000002,"end":218.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.37221875,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.97471875000002,"end":226.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.01659375000003,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.85596875000002,"end":230.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.34909375,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.60159375,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.34784375,"end":243.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.46534375000002,"end":259.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.12534375,"end":264.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.10346875,"end":266.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.67284375,"end":269.55846875000003},{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中國中國共產黨把他的房子在中國打房折價腰斬一半都還沒人要所以"},{"start":473.203,"end":494.521,"text":"經濟的發展從健康的角度來看它本來就會伴隨著一點點的物價膨脹我以前在這個地方說過每年的CPI如果是2%是現在世界總體經濟學家認為最好的超過3是不要因為那是通貨膨脹低於1也不要因為會通貨緊縮"},{"start":496.687,"end":521.11,"text":"那中國現在就面臨通貨緊縮的問題通貨緊縮比通貨膨脹更可怕為什麼因為通貨膨脹是我現在不趕快去消費明天、後天、明年、後年物價越來越高我怕我買不起現在台灣有一點點這樣的預期心理可是通貨緊縮更可怕是我就要忍住不消費因為我越晚消費越便宜"},{"start":522.202,"end":527.786,"text":"所以整個消費會急速的盪下來盪下來之後還更惡性循環我今天買100塊的下個禮拜會變成99塊下個月會變成98塊到了年底剩95塊明年剩90塊那我是不是就盡量忍我越晚消費就賺越多所以偷貨緊縮會帶來整個經濟的窒息量"},{"start":546.995,"end":573.86,"text":"中國現在是這樣的狀況 你有沒有看到這個稅很可怕喔中國的稅中央地方今年度到現在5月減了5.91%换算成人民幣它是少收了2點多兆的這個稅金當然中國的經濟量體非常的大但是你想想看這樣子前面5個月就減收這樣給它算過 它有可能今年會"},{"start":575.253,"end":596.793,"text":"整個撿起來有可能撿到將近10兆的稅金喔那是非常非常驚人的數字那如果這個不趕快解決,過兩年他的經濟真的可能會崩潰啊那在這樣他現在面臨的國際上面的這些制裁的壓力在美國對於他又要支持俄羅斯去侵略烏克蘭歐盟、美國都對他要動手"},{"start":598.365,"end":623.665,"text":"所以坦白講我很看不好啦他如果度過這個硬著陸都很有問題啊所以我的意思說處理這些事情都是要很小心的要一環一環而且觀念要正確有人看到CBI說怎麼會物價上漲然後就隨便扣帽子說怎麼物價都漲然後工資都不漲明明工資就有漲他看不見"},{"start":625.308,"end":626.708,"text":"謝謝吳秉叡委員的諮詢 接著我們請賴世保委員諮詢"}]}},{"id":"154201","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154201","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd15fbc8ec10f38f438a22d6087941f42bc8f090ddb9b7d6d696fbd5d4b87b3fb0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:25:46 - 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to the student suicide and suicide cases mentioned today, we see that the suicide cases are frequent, and the Ministry of Education also has statistics and control, and now the suicide and suicide cases of each school are increasing year by year."},{"start":80.324,"end":84.247,"text":"This figure is very clear, in 106 years it was 1588 cases, but everyone, if you mark it to 111 years, it is 11663 cases."},{"start":84.247,"end":86.989,"text":"This figure is very clear, in 106 years it was 1588 cases, but everyone, if you mark it to 1111 years, it is 11663 cases."},{"start":86.989,"end":89.952,"text":"This figure is very clear, in 106 years it was 1588 cases, but everyone, if you mark it to 1111 years, it is 11663 cases."},{"start":89.952,"end":92.414,"text":"This figure is very clear, in 106 years it was 1588 cases, but everyone, if you mark it to 1111 years, it is 111663 cases."},{"start":92.414,"end":95.176,"text":"This figure is very clear, in 106 years it was 1588 cases, but everyone, if you mark it to 111111 years, it is 111663 cases."},{"start":95.196,"end":95.716,"text":" ﹝審查委員林宜瑾等19人擬具 ﹞"},{"start":114.522,"end":120.588,"text":"此數據非常值得我們大家來警惕並討論怎麼去改善。最後還有一個,目前我們看到因為學府人力的不足,所以我們霸凌通報的案件其實也是越來越高的。之後我再來跟大家討論。最後,現行的學生輔導法第6條,我想我們在這個三級輔導機制上面的修法,我們過去說要從發展介入到儲育,"},{"start":138.584,"end":163.614,"text":" ﻏ一階段一階段來做,可是不好意思,我想教一步大家在這裡喔,學生的狀況哪有辦法那麼按照規矩,那麼按照規則,一階段一階段地慢慢發生,再按照你一階段一階段來處理。所以呢,我想這個部分我們也是要在這個修這個豬條審查的時候,我們好好來討論一下,在發展介入跟處遇上面,我們現在要怎麼去做調整,在每一個發生的moment都可以接住每一個孩子的狀況喔。"},{"start":164.694,"end":186.642,"text":"所以現在學生輔導法已經到達了五年以上必須要進行檢討的時候了所以我們深負非常重大在學輔上面的使命我們希望我們把相關的學生輔導法在這一次的修法當中可以讓它更完善最重要的大家也都有共識了各個版本也就是我們要把專輔人員的門檻能夠降低當然本系列提案是能夠從55班降到30班除了增加專輔人力之外"},{"start":191.624,"end":191.744,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":224.983,"end":225.831,"text":"主席、各位委員"}]}},{"id":"154200","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154200","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1e0cc7a0f59ad6fd1c258fa09de8d0f308f090ddb9b7d6d697a74fa3952d5ae645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:19:15 - 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邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.742218750000003,"end":16.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.54221875,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.398468750000003,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.512218750000002,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.65096875,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.518468750000004,"end":40.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.80096875,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.40409375,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.05784375,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":53.727218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.828468750000006,"end":60.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.62909375,"end":81.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.44096875000001,"end":76.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.89159375,"end":96.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.18471875,"end":102.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.60659375,"end":97.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.14596875000001,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.54659375,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.66846875,"end":108.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.70221875,"end":106.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.94659375,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.65534375,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.47846875000002,"end":138.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.04721875,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.02159375000002,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.03409375,"end":143.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.02846875,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.62221875,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.83096875,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.29471875000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.03284375,"end":178.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.42096875000001,"end":178.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.38284375,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.23471875,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.65659375,"end":190.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.18721875,"end":188.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.95471875,"end":192.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.09784375,"end":215.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.85409375,"end":216.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.43159375000002,"end":245.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.10221875000002,"end":256.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.23159375000003,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.68284375,"end":257.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.19721875,"end":259.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.22659375,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.17971875,"end":263.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.99096875000004,"end":283.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.48034375000003,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.42346875000004,"end":310.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.47409375,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.14284375,"end":314.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.32784375,"end":316.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.47971875,"end":315.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.82534375,"end":317.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.78721875,"end":335.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.46784375000004,"end":342.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.45409375,"end":371.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.56784375,"end":376.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.83284375000005,"end":389.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.91096875000005,"end":393.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.99471875,"end":395.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.09159375,"end":395.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.83409375,"end":397.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.87596875,"end":399.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.22159375,"end":402.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.32659375000003,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.68909375000004,"end":406.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.72284375000004,"end":406.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.14034375,"end":409.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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請做巡討我們再請連次長"},{"start":22.831,"end":47.137,"text":"市長早 這個還是要先恭喜您啦我們從這個產發署署長高升變長賜我相信您未來的工作責任應該是更相對重大市長我想請教一下您在長賜的這個任內您會負責主要督導哪些業務單位我是負責油水、糖電還有那個還有那個能源署跟標準局"},{"start":48.252,"end":64.116,"text":"所以國家的能源政策大概都是屬於您在督導,屬於您在管嘛,是不是這樣?那我就直接切入主題來,我第一個想要請教可能台電王總經理也在嘛,來這個我們一直在講台電的虧損,原本預計今年的虧損會到2124億"},{"start":67.057,"end":95.464,"text":"那4月份我們調降電價之後你們台電的預估今年會多收了600億元對不對一直到年底會多收600億元再加上行政院的撥補1000億所以你的整個虧損會降到500億那台電你們現在也公布就是說燃料有下降中油已經調降了所謂的天然氣的這個採購的價格你們購買的成本也下降所以你們預估今年可以損益兩坪是這樣嗎"},{"start":96.664,"end":98.146,"text":"我下一個問題就要請教了齁"},{"start":112.205,"end":138.225,"text":"你們在講說今年會損一兩瓶的同時其實你們前幾天公布了一個就是說你現在我們要求有一些比如說農漁業社福團體學校或者是地區醫院要求希望電價動漲這件事情可是呢台電說你們不會再去做這一些優惠的處理回歸給各單位自行去編列預算嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":139.09,"end":158.675,"text":"而這個部分是兩個層次一個是台電對民眾的這個部分或者是一些弱勢農業會等等這個部分這個部分是不會改變的台電對他們的電價是不會改變而只是說台電在這方面的需要撥補的這部分我們是跟機關之間做處理而已"},{"start":159.777,"end":170.073,"text":"總經理我覺得你還是要說明清楚因為我看到的新聞稿跟看到了你們的那個標題實在是不清楚你說對個人的部分比如說我現在直接舉例農漁業社福團體"},{"start":172.904,"end":173.885,"text":"好這邊補充一下齁就是"},{"start":193.046,"end":193.827,"text":"那各目的事業主管機關?"},{"start":217.909,"end":243.548,"text":"總經理你確定他們今年有編列這樣的預算嗎還是說你的整個這個計畫是從明年才開始計算因為現在大概各部會已經準備在編列明年的預算了嘛所以你們現在發這個文的意思你們在中央在行政院裡頭有沒有經過跨部會的整合協調然後各機關是不是確定從明年開始他們就會去編列所謂的減少優惠的這樣的一個預算編列"},{"start":246.201,"end":259.427,"text":"是的 這個部分是在中央有曾經協調過有這樣的一個決議所以我們是根據這個決議發文給各世界目的所以各個機關都知道比如說教育部也知道是的"},{"start":260.285,"end":260.505,"text":"是的。是的。"},{"start":283.604,"end":309.77,"text":"第二未來的這一些補助由各機關來自行編列預算我覺得這兩個重點其實前面只是前面那個重點啦就你要讓他們知道說他們的電價還是動漲不會因此而受到影響我覺得這個是一個很重要的關鍵前提否則現在新聞就寫說台電取消所有的這個優惠措施那你會造成大家的恐慌我覺得這件事情可能"},{"start":310.911,"end":334.25,"text":"這個次長或者是台電你們還要必須要在對外說明更清楚好我們在對外說明再強化這一塊好來接下來我其實要講就是說電費這件事情我現在看到有一個民間的企業就是統一超商他們在6月21號開始推動所謂的凌晨3點到6點限時關燈的這樣的一個政策預估一年可以節省96萬度的電"},{"start":336.777,"end":342.293,"text":"這個我覺得還是一個蠻不錯的一個政策方向請問一下經濟部有沒有"},{"start":343.533,"end":369.198,"text":"有沒有這樣的意思比如說更加大幅的去推廣不必要的用電或者是說真的我們應該要大幅的鼓勵大家去採用節能設施節電設施我一直在想我們立法院的這個燈我們立法院的冷氣到底有沒有節電設施比如說我們現在會議在進行可是我們的門是一直開著外面30幾度那那個整個冷氣的運轉"},{"start":371.718,"end":399.405,"text":"行政院的所有的行政機關到底有沒有裝置節能設施這些經濟部到底有沒有去盤點當然郭智慧部長講的這個東西是被斷章取義擷取一句話但是他重要的目的其實就是在告訴大家節能的重要性所以次長您說你督導這些油水、糖電、能源這件事情其實是大家很關注的"},{"start":400.285,"end":415.95,"text":"到底你們經濟部有沒有去大肆的我簡單問啦行政單位有沒有有沒有去做比如說變頻冷氣的改設燈具等等這一些節電的設施你們到底做了多少這個針對那個政府機關喔不管在電燈或是冷氣這一塊"},{"start":420.813,"end":420.833,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":436.784,"end":437.184,"text":"在加電的補助部分其實這個節能我們都是"},{"start":466.155,"end":493.178,"text":"你要補助的話你買的這個家電一定是要再節能多少以上的我們才做補助這個我們都知道啦我現在講的就是說節電除電新的一個能源概念其實這個我們已經談很久了那你如何讓社會大眾能夠去接受到一個這樣的一個新的能源轉變新的能源政策比如說這兩天的太陽光"},{"start":494.172,"end":494.232,"text":"的報告。"},{"start":522.068,"end":529.204,"text":"的這個電價動漲的部分我覺得你們還是有必要要再跟社會大眾做更清楚的說明好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154199","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154199","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1d7eed310cad23d6d08df44dd9bf560a28f090ddb9b7d6d6931b349e6fc4a3edf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:14:38 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Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:14:38+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:27:24+08:00","duration":766,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":109,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時14分）謝謝主席，是不是請財政部莊部長？"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長你好。部長，我請教，因為對岸，就是中國商務部在這個月15日起終止134項ECFA早收清單零關稅的優惠。臺灣機械工業同業公會推估，臺灣機械設備年出口值將因此減少1.1億到1.4億美元左右，在中國市占下滑4%到5%。我請問部長，針對終止ECFA早收清單零關稅的作法，你認為國內產業是不是都做好避險的措施了？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於終止ECFA134項，以及加上今年1月終止的12項，總共有146項。終止零關稅的優惠以後，事實上就會回復到一般的稅率，就是最低2%，最高到17.5%，當然，對於這些產業會有一些影響跟衝擊。"],["林委員德福：對啊，都有衝擊嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分產業主管機關經濟部，我們相信它已經在做相關的輔導，以及協助我們的廠商來做一些調整，這個部分經濟部是會做相關的措施的。"],["林委員德福：莊部長，雖然蔡前總統和賴總統都明確地宣示，走進世界是臺灣未來產業該走的路，而不是再次走回依賴大陸的老路，但是所謂產業該走的路，請問部長，你認為產業該走的路，道路標示都很明確、清楚了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關產業的部分，尤其是受到衝擊的中小企業還有傳統產業，其實經濟部有瞭解，他們一直在輔導這些產業做一些升級，來提高他們的競爭力，不管是數位的轉型或淨零的轉型。"],["林委員德福：但是有的沒有辦法升級。"],["莊部長翠雲：如果提升的話，對他們的競爭力……"],["林委員德福：有的是傳統產業啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，傳統產業，所以這個部分經濟部會協力輔導他們做產業的升級，我相信數位的轉型對他們來說是很重要的。第一個，可以提高營運的效率，降低營運的成本，經濟部在這方面會加重地著力。另外，也就是在增加其他的市場，除了大陸市場以外，再拓展其他的外銷市場。"],["林委員德福：部長，以前整個東南亞的市場根本就做不出去，也推不出去，還是因為應該要走的路根本沒有鋪好，所以很多產業感受到窮途末路的不安，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分就我的瞭解，經濟部其實跟相關的產業都有在座談，瞭解他們的一些困難在哪裡，然後給予相關的輔導，相關的具體措施我想經濟部可以做更詳細的說明。"],["林委員德福：因為我們超徵，尤其包括我們很多的這個……就是我們在整個貿易順差的部分，跟對岸的貿易占40%左右，去年、前年、大前年其實都是對岸40%的貿易額，我們幾乎都是順差。在貿易全球化的時代，臺灣的產業想要做全世界的生意，除了強化自身的產品品質、特色和安全外，加入區域的經濟組織是很重要的，簽署自由貿易協定肯定有其必要性，但是這些年臺灣與其他國家洽簽自由貿易協定的進度緩慢，宣傳多於實質，宣傳多年的加入跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定（CPTPP），到現在沒有一些具體的進展，就連宣稱要與我們關係友好的美國、日本跟澳洲簽訂FTA，還是看不到結果。我請問部長，你認為加入區域經濟組織、簽署自由貿易協定進度遲緩的原因到底是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然加入國際的區域經貿組織，然後簽訂自由貿易協定是非常重要的，那可以對我們的廠商拓展外銷市場、提高競爭力。"],["林委員德福：但是我們都進不去啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：有關相關經貿協定簽署的部分，是由行政院經貿談判辦公室來統籌處理，如果需要本部參與相關的評估，本部也會參加。至於相關談判的進度，還是由這個辦公室來統一對外說明比較好。"],["林委員德福：我知道，但是只有對外宣傳而已，實際上都沒有實質結果啊，到現在都是原地踏步，然後每一次都說有、有、有，就算有，人家都進去了，跟我們同時的這些國家都進去了，我們還在那裡原地踏步。"],["莊部長翠雲：參加這些相關組織需要一定的努力以及時間來溝通跟協調。"],["林委員德福：那個遙遙無期啦！如果ECFA終止，其他經貿協定又遙遙無期，請問政府要怎樣協助這些搖搖欲墜的產業，面對這種看不到前方該走的路的狀況？你認為我們要怎麼做？"],["莊部長翠雲：臺灣的相關產業具有關鍵性的地位，比如說半導體、資通訊產品，我們要鞏固這方面的競爭優勢。"],["林委員德福：傳統產業都沒有辦法生存啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對於有優勢的部分，我們要鞏固我國的競爭優勢。"],["林委員德福：當然啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對於目前比較受衝擊的傳統產業……"],["林委員德福：傳統產業……"],["莊部長翠雲：剛剛……"],["林委員德福：而且他們要照顧很多員工。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的……"],["林委員德福：對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：所以政府要輔導他們產業升級，我剛剛提過，像數位轉型跟淨零轉型，這樣他們可以提升國際上的競爭力，取得比較好的地位，然後擴展他們的市場，這是主要的作法。"],["林委員德福：部長，財政部阮次長上個月中表示，美臺相關法案還是要等美國國會通過，臺灣方面一直努力推動，但是財政部無法預估美國國會的整個時程。請問部長，有關臺美租稅協定的推動時程，你認為這一屆的國會改選前有沒有機會通過？他們馬上在11月5號就要舉行總統大選，也要進行參、眾兩院國會改選，短短四個多月的時間，部長認為臺美租稅協定能夠列為美國優先的法案，跟這些急迫性的法案趕在美國第118屆──這一屆的任期結束前通過嗎？你認為可不可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：臺美避免雙重課稅協定（ADTA）的法案是包裹在一個大的法案裡面，但是兩黨的國會議員對我們這個法案並沒有不同意見，只是包裹法案裡面……"],["林委員德福：包裹在那裡面根本就……"],["莊部長翠雲：有一個國內的稅法他們有意見……"],["林委員德福：他們不過，我們都過不了。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們的駐美代表處一直和國會議員溝通，看看有沒有什麼其他的方式。這個部分碰到今年11月美國的大選，但是我們並沒有放棄這方面的努力。"],["林委員德福：這一屆沒有過的話，還要再等下一屆，又重新開始，是不是這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們應該不是全面改選，而且在本屆國會沒有放棄推動，大選後我們還是會針對所餘的任期繼續推動這個法案，我們會努力，沒有停止。"],["林委員德福：部長，臺灣面臨美國第119屆（下一屆）國會重新檢視協定的機率恐怕比較大，會不會這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們繼續努力，同時財政部和對方的財政部也都做技術性的一些討論，讓未來可以更順利地推動。國會的部分，駐美代表處還有經濟部等等，一直都在努力溝通跟協調。"],["林委員德福：部長，為了保障我們的產業能夠很順利地生存，我認為這個租稅協定很重要，因為人家免稅，我們要稅，你說怎麼競爭？大家心知肚明。","行政院禮拜一召開新青安的全面檢討會議，會後說相關對策的決議定案後，將會適時對外說明。請問部長，新青安房貸衍生催化炒房亂象，行政院是不是打算踩煞車？有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於新青安是不是引起人頭或轉租戶，我們的公股行庫會強化貸前徵審以及貸後的追蹤管理；另外，對於新貸戶要求他提具切結書。目前各部會盤點相關的作法以後，行政院會做政策性的決定，我想決定以後也會很快地對外說明。"],["林委員德福：部長，上個禮拜宣布八大行庫針對新青安房貸達成三項共識，是不是太過嚴苛所以受到關切，因而打算暫緩執行，會不會這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：新青安政策的立意是良善的。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：也就是協助沒有自有住宅房屋的青年朋友們買房。"],["林委員德福：沒有錯。"],["莊部長翠雲：政府幫他一把，這個立意絕對好，但是不能成為炒作房地產以及轉租或借人頭的工具。"],["林委員德福：對，部長……"],["莊部長翠雲：但是符合規定、已經貸款的承貸戶，他的權益是不會受到影響的。"],["林委員德福：央行表示確實有去調查公股行庫的新青安房貸，主要是有些房產是在父母的名下，但是以子女作為借款人。請問部長，就央行調查公股行庫的結果，依您的瞭解，這樣的比重高不高？"],["莊部長翠雲：到目前為止，央行的……"],["林委員德福：比重高不高？"],["莊部長翠雲：據瞭解並沒有這個情形，房產登記在……"],["林委員德福：沒有這種情形嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為他的父母如果有房子，根本就不能適用青安貸款。"],["林委員德福：可以。"],["莊部長翠雲：他的父母有房子。它是父母的名字，登記在父母名下的話是不行的。譬如說……"],["林委員德福：部長，你要瞭解清楚一點。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，他登記在父母的名下……如果現在這個父母本身有房子，然後父母又去買一間房子……"],["林委員德福：在父母的名下，但是以子女作為借款人。"],["莊部長翠雲：以子女……"],["林委員德福：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，借款人跟……"],["林委員德福：子女作為借款人。"],["莊部長翠雲：借款人跟抵押人應該……對，可以不一樣，但是這個部分……"],["林委員德福：你要去瞭解清楚，部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前央行並沒有查到這種情形。"],["林委員德福：沒有嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["林委員德福：你們這樣不能放款嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["林委員德福：我認為你要瞭解清楚，因為……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們跟公股銀行瞭解的結果，目前新青安貸款並沒有借款人是子女、擔保的房產登記在父母名下這樣的情形。"],["林委員德福：房貸檢討精進措施、限制房貸補貼政策，多重管道的政策推動下，導致信用膨脹的危機。對於這些投機心態高，而且占政府補貼房貸便宜的人頭戶，你認為是不是應該無條件溯及既往追究，才可能達到嚇阻這些炒房的歪風，還是要考量個案的狀況予以審酌？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於不符合青安貸款，而是屬於人頭或轉租的情形，一定會依照規定處理。"],["林委員德福：依規定？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，一定依規定……"],["林委員德福：規定是……"],["莊部長翠雲：他不符合資格，但是他冒用這樣的資格就不符合。"],["林委員德福：我認為這方面你們要好好處理。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["林委員德福：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員質詢。","接著請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","王世堅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅\n法部分條文修正草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1136501_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.78596875,"end":2.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.283468750000001,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.47159375,"end":23.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.90909375,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.90534375,"end":56.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.66346875,"end":66.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.46784375,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.03159375,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.49971875,"end":79.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.35409375,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.06284375,"end":93.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.00096875000001,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.82721875,"end":126.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.11659375,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.84221875000001,"end":156.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.14096875,"end":136.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.34034375000002,"end":153.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.10784375,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.08596875,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.61721875,"end":168.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.32534375,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.39659375000002,"end":171.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.06721875000002,"end":186.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.41534375,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.25034375,"end":192.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.55784375000002,"end":196.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.54034375,"end":211.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.23409375,"end":255.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.33284375000002,"end":263.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.93909375000004,"end":273.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.12721875,"end":302.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.74346875000003,"end":302.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.36346875000004,"end":302.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.68409375000005,"end":304.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.45596875,"end":317.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.97284375000004,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.15846875,"end":318.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.22909375,"end":343.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.65659375,"end":343.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.67346875000004,"end":364.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.70159375000003,"end":355.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.75596875,"end":356.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.61221875,"end":358.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.81846875,"end":361.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.25284375,"end":363.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.68284375,"end":364.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.69971875000005,"end":364.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.71659375,"end":365.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.05409375000005,"end":382.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.07096875,"end":366.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.10221875,"end":381.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.89096875,"end":403.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.37284375,"end":413.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.92409375000005,"end":437.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.80221875,"end":455.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.66096875000005,"end":452.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.08659375,"end":454.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.14971875000003,"end":456.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.12846875,"end":469.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.14534375000005,"end":456.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.73409375000006,"end":473.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.07534375000006,"end":473.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.59409375,"end":483.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.40721875,"end":483.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.83721875000003,"end":492.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.10596875000005,"end":507.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.20909375,"end":507.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.95159375000003,"end":508.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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力輔導他們做產業的升級我將相信數位的轉型對他們來說是很重要第一個可以提高營運的效率降低營運的成本"},{"start":147.348,"end":171.683,"text":"那經濟部在這個方面會去加重的著力另外也就是在增加其他的市場除了大陸市場以外拓展其他的一個外銷市場你以前在我們整個東南亞的市場根本就做不出去也推不出去還是應該要走的路根本沒有鋪好所以說很多產業感受到這個窮途末路的不安有沒有"},{"start":173.377,"end":184.597,"text":"這個部分呢就我了解經濟部其實有跟相關的產業都在做座談了解他們的一些困難在哪裡然後給予相關的輔導那相關的具體的措施我想經濟部可以做更詳細的說明"},{"start":186.465,"end":211.363,"text":"因為我們超徵其實尤其包括我們很多就是在整個貿易順差其實跟對岸的貿易佔40%左右那去年前年、大前年其實都是對岸40%的貿易額我們幾乎都是順差啦那在全球"},{"start":213.225,"end":238.826,"text":"在貿易全球化的時代臺灣的產業想要做全世界的生意除了強化自身的產品品質特色和安全外加入區域的整個經濟組織這個是很重要和簽署自由貿易協定來肯定其必要性但是這些年臺灣與其他國家洽簽的自由貿易協定的進度緩慢"},{"start":240.548,"end":263.028,"text":"宣傳多餘實質、宣傳多年的加入CPTPP跨太平洋夥伴全面進步協定到現在沒有一些具體的進展就連宣稱與關係友好的美國跟日本跟澳洲簽訂FTA還是看不到結果"},{"start":264.011,"end":273.035,"text":"那我請問部長你認為加入區域經濟組織簽署自由貿易協定進度的遲緩的原因是到底是什麼當然加入國際的一個區域的經貿的組織然後簽訂自由貿易協定是非常重要的那可以對我們的廠商拓展外銷市場提高競爭力但是我們都進不去啊有關這個部分相關經貿協定的簽署是由行政院經貿談判辦公室來統籌處理"},{"start":293.764,"end":322.022,"text":"那如果需要本部參與相關的評估本部也會參加那相關談判的進度呢還是由這個辦公室來統一我知道但是齁只有對外宣傳而已實際上都沒有實質啊到現在都是原地踏步然後每一次講都說有有有那有人家都進去了同事跟我們進去的這些國家都進去了我們還在那裡原地踏步啦參加這些相關組織我想需要一定的努力以及一些時間"},{"start":326.965,"end":342.935,"text":"市長,如果因為ECFA終止其他經貿協定又遙遙無期,那我請問政府要怎樣來協助這些遙遙遇罪的產業,面對這種看不到前方去找該走的路,你認為我們要怎麼做?"},{"start":344.035,"end":348.059,"text":"根委員報告,其實台灣的相關的產業具有這個關鍵性的一個地位的,譬如說半導體、自動訊產品,那我們要鞏固我們這方面的一個競爭優勢。這是對於有優勢的部分,我們要鞏固我們的競爭優勢。那對於比較目前來說傳統產業,而且它要,裡面要照顧很多員工,對不對?"},{"start":366.953,"end":372.62,"text":"政府要輔導他們做一些產業的升級我剛剛提過就是像數位的轉型跟淨零的轉型這樣他們在國際上的競爭力可以提升讓他們可以取得比較好的一個地位然後擴展他們的一些市場這是主要的做法"},{"start":382.952,"end":402.171,"text":"我再請教因為財政部阮次長上個月中表示美台相關法案還是要等美國國會通過那台灣方面一直努力的推動但是財政部無法預估美國國會的整個時程那我請問部長因為"},{"start":404.672,"end":408.602,"text":"臺美租稅協定的推動時程,你認為這一屆的國會改選前有沒有機會通過?"},{"start":413.973,"end":437.493,"text":"因為他們馬上在11月5日就要舉行總統大選也要進行參眾兩院國會的改選短短4個多月的時間部長你認為臺美租稅協定能夠列為美國優先的法案這些急迫性的法案敢在118屆就是在美國這一屆的任期結束前來通過嗎?你認為可不可能?"},{"start":438.173,"end":451.879,"text":"跟委員報告臺美避免所得稅雙重協定這個ADTA的一個法案他是包裹在一個大的法案裡面但是兩黨的國會議員對我們這個法案並沒有不同意見只是包裹法案裡面有一個國內的稅法他們有意見 那他們不過我們都過不了啦"},{"start":456.161,"end":456.882,"text":"那這一屆沒有過的話還要再等下一屆又重新開始,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":473.638,"end":484.263,"text":"他們應該不是全面改選他是本屆國會沒有放棄推動我們會大選後我們還是會有所餘的任期繼續推動這個法案部長 因為或者台灣會被台灣恐怕會面臨119屆美國國會重新檢視協定的機率會比較大"},{"start":490.546,"end":491.988,"text":"下一屆會不會這樣子?因為部長,像這些租稅協定"},{"start":512.33,"end":533.242,"text":"我們為了保障我們的產業能夠很順利的能夠生存我認為這個很重要因為人家免稅我們要稅你說怎麼競爭大家心知肚明部長因為行政院禮拜一召開新清安的全面檢討會議會後卻說相關對策的決議"},{"start":539.229,"end":559.174,"text":"定案後將會適時對外來說明那請問部長新青安黃袋衍生催化草黃亂象行政院是不是打算踩煞車有沒有委員報告對新青安是不是引起相關的人頭或轉租戶這個部分我們的供股行庫第一個會強化貸錢的一個爭審"},{"start":561.345,"end":575.61,"text":"以及代後的追蹤管理另外對新代戶要求他提具切結書那至於目前來說各部會在盤點相關的一些做法以後行政院會做政策性的決定那我想很快的決定以後也會對外做說明那個部長"},{"start":576.71,"end":605.459,"text":"因為上個禮拜宣布說八大航庫新青安黃帶三項共識是不是太過嚴苛所以受到關切因而打算暫緩執行會不會這樣子跟委員報告新青安政策的利益是良善的也就是協助沒有自有住宅房或是親戚朋友們買房然後政府幫他一把這個利益是絕對好但是不能成為炒作房地產以及做轉租或借人頭是不能做這個工具部長"},{"start":605.779,"end":628.049,"text":"但是符合規定已經貸的陳大夫他的權益是不會受到影響的央行表示確實去調查宮古行庫的新清安房貸主要有些房產是在父母的名下但是以子女作為借款人那我請問部長就央行調查宮古行庫的結果以您了解這樣的比重高不高"},{"start":629.718,"end":632.559,"text":"部長,你要了解清楚一點吶"},{"start":657.452,"end":662.778,"text":"因為他在父母的名下但是以子女作為借款人"},{"start":674.591,"end":691.779,"text":"以子女作為借款人可以不一樣,但是這個部分你要去了解清楚啦,部長沒有,目前並沒有,央行並沒有發過這種情形你們這樣不能換款是嗎?對啊"},{"start":696.809,"end":708.945,"text":"我是認為你了解清楚就是說我們跟公股銀行了解結果目前的新清安貸款並沒有借款人是侄女而單保的房產登記在父母的名下並沒有這樣的情形"},{"start":710.446,"end":736.861,"text":"因為黃袋檢討經濟措施限制黃袋補貼政策多重管道的政策推動下導致信用膨脹的危機對於這些投機心態高而且占政府補貼黃袋便宜的人頭戶你認為是不是應該無條件溯及既往來追究還是才可能達到嚇阻這些草房的外風還是要考量個案的狀況予以斟酌"},{"start":738.653,"end":754.004,"text":"對於不符合清安貸款而是屬於人頭或轉租這個情形一定會依照規定來做出來?依規定?對,一定依照規定。他就不符合資格,但是他冒用這樣的資格就不符合。我是認為在這方面你們要好好的去處理啦。是。好,謝謝委員。謝謝林德福委員的諮詢,接著我們請吳秉樂委員諮詢。"}]}},{"id":"154198","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154198","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd12d1eb7f614e7efad08df44dd9bf560a28f090ddb9b7d6d697a6d1c5068171aab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"09:07:16 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謝謝顏寬恒委員的說明接著我們請財政部莊部長說明並回應委員提案的內容"}]}},{"id":"154197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154197","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1eb7b756ea3f7d7f7a22d6087941f42bc8f090ddb9b7d6d69e09a17039d14f4ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:23:23 - 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to the previous session, I proposed a study version of the study version of the study group, which focuses on students as the center."},{"start":54.201,"end":61.426,"text":"We have more than 10 members from the next generation to join the National Assembly, and we have more than 10 members from the next generation to join the National Assembly."},{"start":61.426,"end":66.009,"text":"We have more than 10 members from the next generation to join the National Assembly."},{"start":77.9,"end":79.21,"text":"時間的關係我就講五大重點"},{"start":80.305,"end":107.872,"text":"第一個就是輔資中心應該要統一各縣市的這個業務有統籌各地方專輔的人力而且要強化能夠提供主義性輔導的功能第二個學生輔資中心應該要正式化那中心主管應該要由專輔人員擔任第三當然就是大家都講到的比例的問題全面提升專任輔導教師跟專輔人員比例讓高中以下的學生獲得足夠的心輔之士"},{"start":108.592,"end":108.832,"text":" ﹝請勿模仿﹞ ﹝請勿模仿﹞"},{"start":131.51,"end":132.271,"text":"等19人擬具李柏毅等19人擬"}]}},{"id":"154196","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154196","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd18be66c346bd5efbba22d6087941f42bc8f090ddb9b7d6d698cc37cfed5f851005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:19:34 - 09:23:19","影片長度":"00:03:45","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員范雲等17人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、審查委員李柏毅等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n五、審查委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、審查委員許智傑等25人擬具「學生輔導法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n八、審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十、審查委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、審查委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、審查委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、審查委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十六、審查委員郭國文等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、審查委員吳沛憶等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、審查委員王育敏等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、審查委員羅智強等16人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、審查委員陳亭妃等19人擬具「學生輔導法第五條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、審查委員馬文君等24人擬具「學生輔導法第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、審查委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「學生輔導法第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「學生輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(6月26日僅進行詢答)\n【6月24日及26日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:19:34+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:23:19+08:00","duration":225,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.586593750000002,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.46409375,"end":10.240343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.556593750000001,"end":196.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.79346875000002,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.63971875000001,"end":223.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.38409375,"end":225.29534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.31,"text":"委員好謝謝哦"},{"start":11.721,"end":38.832,"text":"學生輔導法公告施行至今已經十多年各項問題急需透過修法回應實務現況的需求和困境因此本席提出此次學生輔導法的修法草案重點包括第一第四條當中因應社會科技快速變遷學生輔導的議題越來越多元化因此修正學生輔導法第四條以強化學生輔導諮商中心的功能並且"},{"start":39.352,"end":61.83,"text":"指定資商中心應該配置行政人力,以使專業人員盡可能回歸專業服務內容,降低行政業務,壓縮專業人員提供學生專業輔導的困境。第二點,在第四條之一當中,為強化學生輔導資商中心專業人才的留任意願,建立正式編組。"},{"start":62.811,"end":74.214,"text":"民定地方主管機關因逐年編列員額設置社工師、心理師為學生輔導諮商中心的專業輔導人員並優先由專業人員擔任中心主管以利學生輔導工作的專業發展。"},{"start":82.336,"end":103.471,"text":"第三、在第五條當中為了促進學生輔導工作的發展,調整學生輔導諮詢會,重新歸類專業人員,新增特殊教育教師,強化特輔合作之重要性,並且將學生代表納入諮詢會,以反映學生的心聲與需求。"},{"start":104.111,"end":128.8,"text":"第四、在第五條之一當中參酌聯合國兒童權利公約明定學生輔導應以符合兒童及少年最佳利益為原則而且輔導學生的過程亦應特別重視關注兒童及少年在表達意見身心健康、身份認同、家庭維繫、保護與安全等各項需求"},{"start":129.54,"end":158.9,"text":"第五點在第六條當中修正三級輔導內容強調應著重於學生行為與問題樣態而非僅依時間順序進行以利彈性調整並及時提供適切的輔導協助第六點在第11條當中參考學校衛生法調整高中以下學校專任專業輔導人員的配置班級數達40班以上者應至少"},{"start":159.48,"end":172.208,"text":"配置專任專輔人員一名並調整主管機關所轄學校數與專輔人員比例以增加專輔人力,調整大專院校專業輔導人員的師生比,"},{"start":174.89,"end":195.679,"text":"期望由現行的1比1200調整為1比900。第七點,在第12條當中,為明確各級學校教師、輔導教師與專業輔導人員與三級輔導工作之全責分工,增訂由中央主管機關、會商、地方主管機關定定相關辦法。"},{"start":196.94,"end":223.049,"text":"一例第一線教育工作者有所依循參著國民教育法、高級中等教育法以及特殊教育法建立再申訴機制。綜上所述期盼能夠透過強化學生輔導機制充實學校輔導人力提升輔導工作品質以更加保障與促進學生身心健全發展以上謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154195","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd13a6b78503af02979a22d6087941f42bc8f090ddb9b7d6d69bb1958f17482a95c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:16:45 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«學生輔導法部分條文修正草案》案。ernti關係等等產生的重大影響讓他們面臨更多元的壓力其實這些受害的年輕族群有多數都可以在校園階段就被接觸保護"},{"start":63.336,"end":63.436,"text":"ympt."},{"start":63.436,"end":72.726,"text":"本席因為有三位人在就讀國小的孩子所以常常在與家長還有其他同學的互動中深切的體會到現在家長同學們針對網路霸凌還有網路壓力等等的需求"},{"start":81.215,"end":82.076,"text":"兩、審查委員張雅琳等19人擬具"},{"start":97.904,"end":125.13,"text":"我的提案是針對第11條的修正希望能夠強化校園內專業輔導人員的量能專輔人員是主責處遇性的輔導是安全網中最重要的後勤對於校內的輔導網路運作提升學校教師輔導專業之能以及結合社區網路都是專輔人員的重要功能是強化兒少安全網不可或缺的一環"},{"start":126.15,"end":154.923,"text":"所以近年來呢年輕族群心理需求增加面對如同性暴力事件啊網路性剝削事件啊複雜的心理負擔都需要更多的專輔人員來進行處遇性的輔導所以本席建議我們必須要參考世界先進國家的比例美國是1比1000澳洲是1比850等等現在的1比1200顯然還有很大的改善空間"},{"start":155.723,"end":163.816,"text":"希望能夠透過本次的修法來提高我們專輔人員的量能,照顧這些年輕世代Z世代的心腹需求。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"154194","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154194","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1fcd115187ebd3936c258fa09de8d0f308f090ddb9b7d6d69f3ee4f7ce62287085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:08:21 - 09:19:10","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T09:08:21+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T09:19:10+08:00","duration":649,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-17"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":106,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時8分）有請次長。"],["主席：請連次長。"],["林委員岱樺：針對國營事業的人力需求，我們希望它是穩定發展，而且人力就是我們企業的競爭力。我有三個部分跟次長討論：第一個，人才斷層嚴重，營運會受到影響嗎？第二個，未來10年人力缺口怎麼補齊？本席有兩項建議，第一項：加強產學合作、深耕基層培訓，第二項：全面推動國營事業自動化跟智慧化；第三個，也有一項具體建議。","關於人才斷層，在您的簡報也有提出退休高峰，其實你們在109年的時候開始重視這個議題，65歲的屆齡高峰也會在119年完整呈現；而當中最緊急的也就是到明年為止，109年到114年將會出現最高峰，甚至會達到5,000到7,000人以上的退休人口；沈榮津部長的時候也正視到這樣的問題，下令說一定要補齊缺口，而且強調過渡期不可以有人才荒，所以5年內要補齊7,314人。","但是油電糖水這5年來補足的狀況不是很理想，是呈現怎麼樣呢？到今年為止，現有公司的總人數跟預算員額相比，目前油電糖水總共就缺了4,291人；你們也盤點了從明年開始，剛才所說的4,291人是目前的缺口，未來10年盤點出來，油電糖水總共是缺1萬1,070人，4,291人再加上未來10年、到123年的1萬1,070人，按照你們現在的國營事業退一補一，如果再加上我們現在的生育率排名是世界倒數第二，這樣人力缺口可能是永遠補不齊的！","有關未來10年的人力缺口，本席在102年就開始倡議在地高中職與國營事業產學專班，也因為本席的倡議，開啟了國營事業於高中職階段能夠就地培養人才，完成了以下的產學專班，所以我在這邊也非常感謝油電糖水各位董座以及人事單位的支持。包含中油跟林園高中、小港高中的產學專班，台電跟小港高中的產學專班，台水跟六龜高中的產學專班，台船、中鋼集團跟高苑工商，以及民間的大社石化專區跟仁武高中，中華電信與旗山農工等，都還有進行相關洽談。","產學合作有什麼好處呢？我想次長也很瞭解，關於在地人才及留用人才，甚至我們的專班辦到雄中、雄女他不去唸，他回來讀我們的產學專班，這當然是國營事業相關的福利制度，還有你們在產學當中讓家長都很清楚國營事業在轉型過程中的現況，能取得家長的認同。首創之舉是中油，所以我非常感謝李順欽李董事長，他甚至認定林園高中就是中油所屬的高中，我們在地都已經認為中油是我們的好鄰居！在他積極做產業轉型的過程中，淨零碳排等等相關的業務都導入到課程。","所以在這邊我有一個要求，請經濟部一個月內完成盤點國營事業在高雄還有哪些產學專班可以進行規劃跟執行，這是第一個，這個等一下要請次長回應。","針對全面推動國營事業的自動化跟智慧化，本席去年就做了要求，我也感謝經濟部和中油結合工研院的電光專業進行了國產5G專網結合AIoT；去年10月經濟部技術司也提供工研院POC的驗證經費；而且去年年底、12月完成功能驗證；今年3月技術司也帶著工研院去看了這個成果。我也感謝中油，他們也覺得這確實是可行的，雖然它說全面執行要明年的7月，這就是緩慢，但是它有回應經濟部以及它也認知到中油本身也有這種智慧化的需求。","相關自動化跟智慧化的機制雖然不能解決人員進用，但它可以減少人力需求的壓力，我就以林園廠來講，它有三輕、四輕，管線是相當複雜，現在作業區域的巡檢跟環廠道路的巡檢是用什麼？用人力耶！我們走在廠區外，我用肉眼去看那邊漏了，那我就趕快來回報、啟動檢查機制；其實這邊就可以用無人載具跟AI影像辨識。當然我們知道它是一個工業區，針對無人載具工研院這邊都有設計防爆，就算真的電路出什麼問題，它不會發生火災、它不會有火焰出來，所以都已經有這樣的一個評估機制，這個是不是能夠解決人員進用？","因為這樣的智慧化、自動化，一天24小時、365天全年無休，但是人力是有侷限的，所以我就可以減緩人力的需求，所以不是替代人力，而是以自動化跟智慧化補足人力不足的部分。","具體建議有三個，也請次長回應。第一個，參考中油跟林園高中還有剛才本席所說推動各國營事業的產學專班，持續的來推動，本席有具體的要求，在我高雄這邊，你們在一個月內完成所有的盤點，各國營事業當中還有什麼樣的產學專班的規劃的可能性。","第二個，全面加速推動國營事業自動化跟智慧化，請經濟部專案列管，本席這邊講的專案列管是要部長主責列管，召集工研院、金屬中心、資策會等相關法人於三個月內完成規劃。另外也請部長於今年9月前，也就是下會期前完成四大國營事業的訪視，檢視國營事業自動化、智慧化的現況跟未來。","為什麼本席要求一定要部長親自來督導？因為部長在歷任部長當中有完整的業界歷練，第二個，他所從事的半導體產業是國內目前自動化跟智慧化最高的產業，也只有他親自督導，在四大國營事業當中帶頭，才有可能讓相關的中下游一併啟動，包括中小企業相關的產業、傳統產業的自動化跟智慧化，就能夠有全面提升的可行性，所以我才要求部長要親自訪視，而且親自專案列管，在這個列管當中，我是要求三個月完成規劃案，你要如何進行，包括逐年編列預算、要達成什麼目標、什麼時候完成什麼樣的成果，這是我第二個建議。","第三個，基於就業公平及經驗傳承的原則，評估回聘退休人員，因為你們現在人力需才若渴，要工業自動化跟智慧化還是需要一些時間，但是你現在就是缺人，所以我說一定要就業公平，我們不是要去占年輕人、阻擾年輕人上來升遷，但是在這個過度當中，我能夠在就業公平跟經驗傳承的機制，評估回聘退休人員，帶領新進人員迅速上手，減緩人力不足的壓力，以經驗來提供專業機制，甚至這樣的回聘人員到什麼程度，我們也應該要有一個適時的退場，這些都要規劃。重點還是要讓我們自己公司內的新進同仁能夠承接上來，次長請您回應一下這三個具體的建議。"],["連次長錦漳：謝謝委員針對產學專班的指導，這部分我們一定會繼續做，因為這個不只是在補充一些跟地方合作的部分，其實也會讓地方的就業更穩定，這部分我們一定會做。","另外一個是國營事業自動化跟智慧化，這是我們部長上來的第一個要務，產業要AI化，一定是以國營事業為優先，關於這個我跟委員報告，我一定親自下來督導，我一定會專案……"],["林委員岱樺：次長你就攬著這個工作啦！"],["連次長錦漳：我一定會專案來跟我們部長報告。"],["林委員岱樺：我也很高興你來攬這個工作，因為您也是從工業局上來、從基層上來……"],["連次長錦漳：因為這個攸關高雄整個石化工安的問題，這個我們一定會努力來做。"],["林委員岱樺：好。"],["連次長錦漳：另外一個是聘回退休人員，這部分我目前也有在做一些研擬，現在有一些公司像中油也有把退休人員請回來做師徒的傳承，這部分我們會來做規劃。"],["林委員岱樺：好，這邊我有講請部長或您要在9月前親自訪視，不要只有紙上作業，在辦公室看資料而已。"],["連次長錦漳：好，不會。"],["林委員岱樺：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請邱議瑩召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.6172187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.232843750000001,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.494093750000001,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.23409375,"end":59.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.51534375000001,"end":61.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.27034375,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.72471875000001,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.38284375,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.04659375,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.62034375,"end":132.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.97221875,"end":136.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.05596875,"end":141.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.67971875,"end":145.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.62846875,"end":197.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.80596875,"end":251.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.90721875000003,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.50471875,"end":327.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.72659375,"end":328.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.27909375,"end":343.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.97721875,"end":398.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.49596875000003,"end":458.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.84534375000004,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.45909375,"end":476.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.88471875000005,"end":478.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.36534375,"end":494.85659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.99159375000005,"end":513.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.9422187499999,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.20284375,"end":579.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.4172187500001,"end":584.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.27284375,"end":587.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.93909375,"end":589.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.03159375,"end":602.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.0422187500001,"end":611.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.0122187500001,"end":616.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.44596875,"end":612.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.76596875,"end":636.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.21846875,"end":641.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.21346875,"end":642.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.8884687500001,"end":645.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.1115937500001,"end":646.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.88784375,"end":646.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.8115937499999,"end":648.4865937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":4.618,"text":"林岱樺委員請做詢問有請次長我們請林次長"},{"start":14.636,"end":29.834,"text":"好那我們就針對國營事業的人力需求我們希望他是穩定發展而且人力就是我們企業的競爭力好我們針對有三個部分跟次長討論第一個人才斷層的嚴重營運是會受到影響嗎"},{"start":33.919,"end":48.046,"text":"第2個未來10年人力缺口怎麼補齊本席兩項建議第一個加強產學合作升更基層培訓第二個全面推動國營事業的自動化跟智慧化第三個也有一個具體建議"},{"start":49.167,"end":68.969,"text":"好,那在斷層當中在您的簡報有提出退休高峰其實你們在109年的時候開始啟動這樣的一個議題的重視也這個65歲的介林高峰也會在119年來完整的呈現而當中最緊急的也就是在明年年"},{"start":70.484,"end":88.632,"text":"指一百一十九年到一百一十四年將會出現最高峰甚至會達到五千到七千人以上的退休人口那時候省農經省部長的時候也正式到這樣的問題下令說一定要補齊缺口而且強調過渡期不可以有人才方"},{"start":89.272,"end":111.006,"text":"所以五年內要補齊7314人但是台電糖水這五年來補足的狀況不是很理想是呈現怎麼樣呢到今年為止你現有公司的總人數跟預算的元額總共台電糖水缺目前就缺了4291人好在你們也盤點了從明年開始"},{"start":116.93,"end":141.111,"text":"剛才的4291人是目前的缺口你未來10年總共盤點出來台電糖水是110704291再加上未來10年到123年的11070人按照你們現在的國營事業推一補一那如果再加上我們現在生育率排名是世界倒數第二"},{"start":141.812,"end":157.411,"text":"可能這樣人力缺口是永遠補不起的好那未來10年這個人力缺口所以呢本期在102年就開始倡議在地的高中職與國營事業產學專班也因為本期的倡議開啟了國營事業與高中職階段能夠就地培養人才"},{"start":161.656,"end":186.214,"text":"完成了這以下產學專班所以我在這邊也非常感謝台電唐水各位董作以及同仁人事單位的支持中油跟我林岩高中跟小港高中的產學專班台電跟小港高中的產學專班台水跟六龜高中的產學專班台船跟中鋼集團跟高院工商以及我民間的大社石化專區跟仁武高中"},{"start":186.694,"end":196.8,"text":"中華電信與岐山農工等都還有相關的進行是在進行洽談當中好那這個產學合作有什麼好處呢"},{"start":197.867,"end":225.47,"text":"那我想這個次長你也很了解這個在地的人才我留用人才甚至我們的專班辦到熊中熊女他不去念他回來讀我們的產學專班這當然是我們國營事業的相關的這個福利制度還有你們在產學當中讓家長都很清楚我們國營事業整個在轉型過程當中的一個一個現況能取得家長的認同所以呢這個目前我"},{"start":226.41,"end":241.803,"text":"我這個首創之軀啊是我們的中油所以甚至我們李順金李董事長我非常感謝他他甚至都認定我們林岱高中就是中油所屬的高中這是我我們在地當中非常對中油這類喝醋比我們都已經認為他是一個"},{"start":245.746,"end":261.662,"text":"是我們的鄰居能夠這樣的在他積極的做產業轉型當中近鄰探牌等等相關的業務課程都導入到課程所以在這邊我有一個要求請經濟部一個月內完成盤點國營事業在高雄"},{"start":262.823,"end":280.244,"text":"還有哪些產學專班可以來進行規劃跟來執行的這是第一個等一下要請次長您來回應好那在但是呢針對全面推動國營事業的自動化跟智慧化"},{"start":281.025,"end":291.936,"text":"這在本期去年的時候我就做了要求所以我也感謝中油他有來這個經濟部這邊還有中油這邊你們結合了公園院電光進公園院的電光的這個的"},{"start":297.46,"end":323.268,"text":"進行了國產武軍專晚節和AIOT所以去年7月去年10月的時候經濟部技術師也提供公研院POC的驗證經費而且年底去年12月的時候完成功能的驗證在今年3月的時候技術師也帶著公研院去看了這個成果那我也感謝中友他們也覺得說這確實是可行的可是"},{"sta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法出來所以我真的還是希望今天的修法就是一個檢視這重大我們國家危機,青少年的危機的一個時刻希望我們的教育的主管機關"},{"start":171.155,"end":183.263,"text":"能夠用最積極的態度來面對今天我們輕少人自殺死亡率暴增的這個非常非常讓大家痛心的現象 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謝謝主席 各位委員媒體先進那我想大家都非常高度重視我們打火弟兄的人身安全尤其是我們打火弟兄於救災的現場常常面臨高風險的環境那如果說他們能夠在第一個時間瞭解救災現場有什麼危險物品的資訊以及內部空間的配置對於他們做出這個第一時間迅速的判斷會非常有幫助 進而減少人員傷亡及財產的損失"},{"start":37.091,"end":65.872,"text":"因此本席於這個會期提出消防法相關條文修正草案那包括新增第21條之二那重點就是危險物品資訊揭露及內部空間配置的掌握要求工廠儲存化學品之倉庫及儲存場所之管理權人對於具有危害之化學品應於該場所明顯位置設置危害風險標示板標明危險物品資訊揭露及內部空間配置"},{"start":66.833,"end":85.405,"text":"當危害風險有變動時,就應該要立即時更新,以保障修防人員於救災現場之生命安全,並提高救災效率及降低風險。令修正第15條,公共危險物品及可安性高壓氣體依據主管機關訂定的安全管理辦法規定,應依其"},{"start":86.186,"end":111.183,"text":"五、容器裝載及搬運方法進行安全搬運,打管質量時,應在製造儲存或處理場所以安全方法進行儲存或處理。六、儲管機關對於違反上述規定者其兼具獎金修正為因,以時收罰還總金額收入至一定比例,提供獎金。"},{"start":112.165,"end":121.248,"text":"其中蔣麗堅舉發人以鼓勵其揭發違法行為,進而促進企業合規及提高工作場所的安全。"},{"start":122.422,"end":133.593,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":146.224,"end":151.546,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"154191","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154191","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1edf5ee26b9d6f65c68d28c953871b3698f090ddb9b7d6d69abd64c1826021b415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:07:47 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現行規定高中以下的學生學校班級達55班以上配專業輔導人員,但未達55班的規模無專任專業輔導人員,恐難以實踐校安事件的三級預防措施,尤其"},{"start":85.29,"end":101.009,"text":"告知局的報告也開宗明義講到我國少子化的現象嚴重高中以下學校班級數55班以上者其實逐年減少也因此我們當然認為說這樣的一個數額比例空間有需要來做調整最後"},{"start":102.593,"end":128.288,"text":"對專科以上學校輔導人力學生配置為1比1200但隨著現在當前學生遭遇的問題廣泛複雜學生求助的意識有明顯增加的趨勢我們也認為說這樣的一個比例應該要做調整再者要把專業人士以外還需要他是有專任的人力而不要有這個其他的一個事務也因此在修正本條的第五項規定"},{"start":129.449,"end":142.259,"text":"希望能夠規定專科以上學校學生900人以下者就能夠配置專任專業輔導人員至少一人以符合這個相關的合理數額來協助輔導。最後再強調不管是我們"},{"start":147.262,"end":170.575,"text":"2024年三位總統候選人在選舉的時候都一定有做承諾尤其是賴清德總統他甚至講說要修學生輔導法落實三級輔導機制加強社會安全網我想加強社會安全網就是大家都一致要認同並且努力推動的我們也期待趕快看到行政院的版本畢竟目前到現在我們學生輔導法"},{"start":171.215,"end":180.412,"text":"都只有委員的版本也因此行政院以及教育部的態度我想相對重要請行政院教育部要負責任的提出相關版本以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"154186","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154186","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd156e7cc6a9a64a933a22d6087941f42bc8f090ddb9b7d6d692843dd09ca1b81945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"09:02:33 - 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度,但是很多的不是合法的工廠,或者是年度額到底是多少,這個可能不好掌握。"},{"start":273.848,"end":279.714,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":289.563,"end":310.099,"text":"所以這個部分我們是比較保留說這樣要不要處理那至於納入25條18這個我們可以再跟委員再來商討看怎麼樣把這個既然要列專章那列專章就是把消防人員保障服務做得更好那對他的一些權益這些能夠做得更好我想這個是我們共同努力的方向謝謝委員那最後一個確定那個罰則你們會增加嗎"},{"start":314.102,"end":336.799,"text":"我們可以把委員的建議精神納進來。那其他的部分可以再思考一下。是,我們再來考慮。或者最後不能修法,但你們確定會再執法做的話,那可能我們可以用附帶決議的方式處理,好嗎?好,這個再勞請委員來跟我們知道,感謝委員。那再次肯定我們劉世芳部長在很多議題上都見及理局,那希望這個部分也能夠把它修到很好,好不好?好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝,我們歡迎委員資訊。"}]}},{"id":"154307","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154307","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1803d2fadec0999b268d28c953871b3697ffb1ee7a12891019b2a7110b0943ced5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:22:00 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11:30:05","影片長度":"00:08:05","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-06-26","start_time":"2024-06-26T11:22:00+08:00","end_time":"2024-06-26T11:30:05+08:00","duration":485,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"gazette":{"lineno":655,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時22分）好，謝謝主席！部長，你休息一下，我們請署長。"],["主席：請蕭署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：署長，本席在6月7號也有質詢行政院長的施政報告，昨天收到貴署的回復，您大概沒看過這一份回復吧？好，也給部長一份。","首先我要延續我們之前所講的，我們消防人力人多就安全，這個我相信很多委員也都有反映，現在消防最大的問題就是人力不足，當然你們這一次有提出七大消防策略，裡面也有增人力這一塊。本席之前在委員會質詢，院會也質詢，針對人力不足的部分，你們針對去年特別回復，你們說招考不足，本席覺得你們宣傳不夠，所以老是招考不足，結果你們就回復說，有啊！有在廣為宣傳啊！你們怎麼宣傳？署長，你知道嗎？你們是怎麼宣傳的？你們就是透過招募海報，招募海報貼在哪裡呢？就貼在你們全國只有一個地方的訓練中心，你要跟全國招考，然後你就只貼一個地方，你告訴我說你有廣為宣傳；再來，你說「本署亦透過官網、臉書等社群媒體」，你的官網有幾個人去看？你的臉書流量比我們地方一個小區域的議員還要少人，你這個叫做宣傳嗎？部長，你要瞭解一下；再來，再講「本署持續積極推動充實消防人力」，還透過什麼跑馬燈、電子看板、標語、海報、網站，通通都沒有多少人知道。所以本席在這裡要特別再次強調，你們的招生最近剛考完對不對？6月16號考完。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：3月18號報名截止，目標招收1,000人，但是你們收到的報考人數2,256人。我們看一下投影片，過去民進黨執政8年，消防的需求人數到最後錄取人數，最高的百分比是39%，很多都在20%以下或百分之二十幾，所以從這邊我們就可以知道，你要招收到足夠，我們現在人力需求全國都在哀哀叫，署長你知道嗎？知道全國人力都不足這一點嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：瞭解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你知道？"],["蕭署長煥章：目前缺額是1,400位。"],["徐委員欣瑩：缺額是1,400位，你想招收1,000位，依據過去8年的執政經驗，你們每一次的錄取率都是百分之二十幾，你這一次報考人數2,200人，那麼錄取率百分之二十幾，就是招收到400人，可是你的目標是1,000人。"],["蕭署長煥章：是不是容許我做個說明？"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下再說明、最後再說明。所以這一塊我們覺得宣傳不足，等於公務人員尸位素餐，你問所有的委員或是問我們的總統，我要宣傳、我要拿票，假設我要拿10萬票，總統要拿600萬票，我想拿到那麼多票，我的宣傳可以只對100萬人宣傳或只對50萬人宣傳嗎？你今天想要招收這麼多人，卻隨便宣傳，這就是最大的問題，我們不希望再看到因為人力不足，所以造成一直有消防人員的殉職，這個要誰負責！人力不足，每一屆都不足，連續8年！人力不足，造成消防人員殉職，行政單位沒有責任嗎？他們就只能這樣，到了火場，人力就是不足，所以這一塊本席要特別、特別講。","再來，因為時間的關係，你們還有添裝備，請問這次添裝備有沒有電子式火警災害現場人員管制系統？有沒有？"],["蕭署長煥章：在後面的化學雲計畫裡面有這個經費。"],["徐委員欣瑩：一定要有！這個是管制人員進出火警現場的系統，可以得知有誰進去了、進去多少時間了、是否要出來了、裡面還有多少人。拜託，你們花了這麼多錢──260億、七大策略，裝備裡面你們說要花58億，請你要支援真正需求的。請問一下，你們的添裝備裡面有含給義消的嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：也包括義消。"],["徐委員欣瑩：也有義消喔？"],["蕭署長煥章：民團都包括。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，因為義消也覺得他們常常要支援，裝備常常不足。好，現在您可以先簡單回復剛剛提到的人力問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，感謝委員。關於消防人力的問題，以今年現在正在訓練的來講，剛才委員講到1,800位，其實去年我們是要錄取1,000位，1,800位在考試院規定裡面可以錄取一半，只要平均分數達到50分，去年的分數是沒有達到50分，因為消防特考裡面……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你也知道我講的重點是，你人多，自然人才多，然後錄取率自然高……"],["蕭署長煥章：呃……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你覺得不是，沒有必要嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：沒關係……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下，投影片再拿出來一次。你看，錄取最多的一次是590位，招收了2,946位，是不是歷屆最多？不是，有一個3,200位……"],["蕭署長煥章：3,000位。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當年招收了715位。所以人越多，錄取率越高啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：我們會來努力，就是委員指教的宣導部分，我們來處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們不要老是……"],["蕭署長煥章：是，委員交代的部分，我們一定會來擴大來看怎麼樣讓社會大眾知道消防人員需要人力，然後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼「怎麼樣擴大」？這個宣傳，你們……"],["蕭署長煥章：好，委員說的我們知道，沒關係，請委員給我們指導。"],["徐委員欣瑩：宣傳專家多得是，你們要用對地方。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為你們的宣傳費用，據本席瞭解，都用在其他方面、宣導，對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：防火宣導、防災宣導。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你可以撥一些經費讓人力充足。真的，消防弟兄的心聲就是人多就安全，人多就安全。本席不希望下個會期、下下個會期我們在內政委員會碰面的時候，消防人力一直不足，署長，拜託你，好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，明年1月份入訓這一批，我們期待人力會大幅增加，這是第一個部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我們希望看到。"],["蕭署長煥章：明年8月份警專正期班入訓的那一批本來是150位，明年已經增加到400位。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有增加到400。"],["蕭署長煥章：已經增加到400位，所以順利的話，預期一年會有1,400位進入我們實務界，跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，辛苦了！我們真的希望看到的是真正充足的人力能夠來支援警消人員。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","下一位鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","范雲委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.46784375,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.981593750000002,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.688468750000002,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.95409375,"end":36.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.172843750000006,"end":41.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.813468750000006,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.13784375,"end":46.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.09096875,"end":60.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.578468750000006,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.10471875,"end":70.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.12534375,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.06596875000001,"end":78.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.02284375,"end":98.2265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«消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":259.085,"end":279.238,"text":"這就是最大的問題我們不希望再看到因為人力不足人力不足所以造成一直有我們這個消防人員的殉職這個要誰負責人力不足每一屆都不足連續8年人力不足造成消防人員殉職行政單位沒有責任嗎他們就只能這樣到了火場人力就是不足"},{"start":288.649,"end":302.26,"text":"所以這一塊本席要特別特別講再來因為時間的關係你們還有天裝備請問這次天裝備有沒有電子式火警災害現場人員管制系統有沒有"},{"start":303.973,"end":315.739,"text":"二、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":334.202,"end":361.818,"text":"請問一下,你們的天裝備裡面有含給義消的嗎?也包括義消。因為義消他們也覺得,因為他們常常要支援,常常不足。好,現在您可以先簡單回覆剛剛人力的問題。是,感謝委員。消防人力的問題,以今年現在正在訓練這個問題是,剛才委員講到1800位,其實去年我們是要錄取1000位。那1800位在考訓的規定裡面可以錄取一半。"},{"start":362.438,"end":364.138,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":382.807,"end":386.49,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具"},{"start":398.88,"end":402.142,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":414.048,"end":418.67,"text":"三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":437.737,"end":463.247,"text":"本席不希望我們下個會期下下個會期我們在內政委員會碰面不希望人力一直不足署長拜託你好不好委員跟委員報告今年明年1月份入訓就批我們期待人力會大幅增加這是第一個部分跟委員報告我們希望看到那明年8月份景專的政經辦入訓那一批本來是150位明年已經增加400位"},{"start":464.527,"end":471.133,"text":"四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}